# Loco position & direction on logging line



## Shekou Jim (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm modeling a logging railroad and want to get the loco in the right place, and facing the right direction.

Looking at many maps of logging lines, they often look like trees: ending with a single trunk where the logs dump off, and splitting into many branches as the line goes up into the hills. There never appears to be a loop, wye, or turntable, so I assume the loco stays in the same position & facing the same direction as it goes up & down the mountain.

Does the loco face forward with the empties trailing behind as it goes into the hills, therefore backing down with the loaded cars preceding it? 


OR, does it back up the hill pushing the empties ahead of it, so it can lead the train back down?

OR, does it back up the hill trailing the empties behind....Etc.?

What would have typically been done, and why?

-Jim


----------



## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim -

I'm no logging expert, but it's my understanding that, on the steeper grades anyway, the loco would always be on the downhill end of the train in order to prevent runaways in the event a coupler broke or gave way (not many logging cars had pneumatic safety brakes.) That held true for the ascent as well as for the descent for the reason you mentioned - no wyes, runaround sidings, etc. Whether the loco itself was facing up or down depended, I suppose, mostly on which direction it was facing when initially coupled to the train. It really didn't matter much, since most geared locomotives ran equally well in either forward or reverse.


----------



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Big65Dude on 04 May 2010 11:33 PM 
Whether the loco itself was facing up or down depended, I suppose, mostly on which direction it was facing when initially coupled to the train. It really didn't matter much, since most geared locomotives ran equally well in either forward or reverse.


Well... Yes, and no. Geared engines did work equally well in both directions, but it would still be a good idea to keep the firebox on the downhill end. That would keep the crown sheet covered longer than if the engine were nose down, thus helping to prevent boiler explosions. Of course, if there was no wye or turntable anywhere on the system, the engine probably spent its entire career facing the same direction, unless it happened to derail.


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Shekou Jim on 04 May 2010 10:28 PM 
I'm modeling a logging railroad and want to get the loco in the right place, and facing the right direction.

Looking at many maps of logging lines, they often look like trees: ending with a single trunk where the logs dump off, and splitting into many branches as the line goes up into the hills. There never appears to be a loop, wye, or turntable, so I assume the loco stays in the same position & facing the same direction as it goes up & down the mountain.

Does the loco face forward with the empties trailing behind as it goes into the hills, therefore backing down with the loaded cars preceding it? 


OR, does it back up the hill pushing the empties ahead of it, so it can lead the train back down?

OR, does it back up the hill trailing the empties behind....Etc.?

What would have typically been done, and why?

-Jim 


On very steep grades it was important to keep a steam loco pointing uphill regardless of its position in the train. This was to always assure that there was water covering the crown sheet. A lack of water there would result in a most embarrassing boom that was very hard on both locomotive and crew. 

Positioning the locomotive downhill in a train was recommended to prevent runaways. Often the only brakes were on the locomotive. This served a dual purpose as logging spurs often were single track dead ends without runaround tracks at the loading site.

For longer more substantial tracks it would be preferred to have the locomotive on the front provided the above considerations were met. Larger operations could have a mainline, like the trunk of a tree, from which spur tracks extended to cut sites. In this case the mainline would be fairly permanent with well laid track and runaround tracks while the spurs would be temporary to reach a specific cutting area. 


I didn't mean to repeat what was already posted by Kenneth above. His post didn't show up when I started to type. In any event he is totally correct.


----------



## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken & Richard -

Good point, guys. I hadn't thought of the vital importance of keeping the crown sheet covered with water.

Mebbe loco go BOOM!


----------



## Shekou Jim (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks everyone! Exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Shekou Jim, 

The loco could be on the front or rear of the train.. A lot of lines used crains to put the log cars behind the loco.. Pulled cars up the mountain & lead cars down the mountain.. 

BulletBob


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Not all logging lines necessarily kept the loco pointing uphill either. For one thing it would depend upon the length of the grade. It was also the fireman's responsibility when approaching a grade to make sure there was enough water in the boiler to ensure coverage of the crown sheet. 

On logging lines there were no hard fast rules. Each line did pretty much as it wished, and as habit and their own experience dictated. Those lines which were also common carriers had to observe federal regs - those that weren't, didn't. The latter category was far more numerous, and were pretty much free to do things as they saw fit without much - if any - oversight.


----------



## Tenn Steam (Jan 3, 2008)

In Whistle over the Mountain, the history of the Little River Railroad and Little River Logging, all pictures of a Shay with a train have the cars coupled to the boiler end of the Shay. 
Bob


----------



## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

It seems the rules don't apply for switch backs? I have ridden on Cass and Roaring Camp & Tall Trees.


----------



## LogSkidder01 (Jul 30, 2009)

Little River swung both ways: 

http://www.littleriverrailroad.org/images/PhotoAlbum/LogTrains/3406ShayTrestleLog.jpg

http://www.littleriverrailroad.org/images/PhotoAlbum/PassTrains/0403Shay9ObservationCar.jpg


But most of the time the Shays seemed to be on the end of the train. 


More pics at: 

http://www.littleriverrailroad.org/photos.htm” 

Little River also had Y's at several backwoods locations including Elkmont, Three Forks and Treemont to turn engines. There are also notes indicating that temporary turns may have been built elsewhere on the long runs and that "run arounds" were built on some switchbacks. 

Ken


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Loco direction? 

Generally aligned with the track as they don't work well the other way. But then, on logging lines, alignment was sometimes a loose concept.


----------



## Shekou Jim (Oct 19, 2009)

Posted By Torby on 10 May 2010 03:08 PM 
Loco direction? 

Generally aligned with the track as they don't work well the other way. But then, on logging lines, alignment was sometimes a loose concept. d'oh!


----------

