# Real or fake mountains?



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

My backyard is relatively flat and I would like to have some good sized terrain to have bridges, trestles, etc.  I'm not really in a position to bring in 16 tons of dirt, at least not yet.

What are the thoughts of roughing it out with hardware cloth and covering that with concrete?  Kind of like monster scale of what the N/HO crowd does.  It would make things go a lot faster for me to get something up.  I'd arrange it so there would be plenty of dirt areas for plants, etc.

I've seen this done in exhibits for wildlife, etc. and it usually looks pretty good.

Any experiences, good, bad indifferent?  Any tips, suggestions, pointers?

Thanks,
Michael


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have considered doing the same thing, but I am always scared off by the thoughts of what might decide to make it their home... spiders, bees, rodents, badgers, bears, sasquatch, etc. If you do it, keep me posted on the results!


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael

Here are some links to various MLS member's websites and links to the MLS archives, which can be accessed via the...
*MLS menu-bar > Community menu > Forum Archives*


You then can visit the various forums in the old software and use the Serach feature to locate topics posted over the last seven years.


*MLS Member: TJ-Lee PDF format file* 

*MLS Member: Warren Willis Jr (MLS User ID: silverstatespecialties)*

*MLS Member: Craig Sheline (MLS User ID: sheepdog)*

*Gary's Mountain / MLS Members: Chris Walas (User ID: cjwalas) & Gary Olmstead (User ID: astrayelmgod)*


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

We used plastic cement, rather than concrete. Plastic cement can be worked like modeling clay if you get just the right amount of water in it. Note that plastic cement is used as the base for stucco, so if there aren't stucco homes in your area, plastic cement will be hard to find. Try mortar instead. If you do, let me know how it works out for you. 

As for what takes up residence there, if you run the mountains all the way to the ground all the way around , or conversely, don't have any backs on them at all, there won't be much of a problem. I have a spot where I intentionally left a cave opening large enough for my Scottish terrier to get in and snoop around, and I haven't seen anything in there except spiders.


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

TJ's PDF is the best article of that batch. I thought that there was another thread about the mountains that Chris, John and I built, but I can't find the thread. 

One comment about TJ's and Craig's articles is that they both used re-bar as the basic form. That is not necessary. You can use anything that is handy. I have used 1x2 firring strips; Chris used Stryofoam on a later stage. We also used screws to hold the hardware cloth on the first time. But it turns out that poultry netting works better than hardware cloth, and hot glue works just fine to hold the wire to the frame. 

When building the frame, you have to keep in mind that the only purpose of the frame is to set the shape long enough for the cement to set up. After that, the cement will be self supporting, and the frame doesn't matter.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Works great!  Do it all the time.  I use crinkled aluminum foil to add texture.  I actually use mortar or mason's mix and for structures that are to be walked on, concrete undeneath the mortar mix.

What's to the left of the "crack" is man-made and that to the right is real.


----------



## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,

I've used Gary's and Chris' plastic cement technique and really like it. As Gary pointed out I used rebar as my Cliffs of Insanity set right next to the house and termites are a consideration in my area. Feel free to ask questions about anything in the PDF.










Gary,

> TJ's PDF is the best article of that batch.

Thank you sir, but you helped. I could not have gotten anywhere with the technique without your help. Many thanks.

Best,
TJ


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Depending on the size of your mountain(s) why not make them hollow and use the space for train storage. Heck take a couple of feet of dirt OUT and make it deeper so you can stand up in it and use it for train storage and hidden operation(s),


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Lots of good info, thank you all very much. TJ's Mole Hill PDF is a wonderful, very well done document. I am having a bit of a time finding burlap locally. Everyone has plenty of the poly-whatever weed block fabric, but I don't think that will work. It always amazes me how much stuff I cannot find in the huge Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex. I guess it is because there is so much it is hard to filter through. 

The hollow train storage cavern rpc7271 suggests opens the mind to all kinds of entertaining possibilities. I can just see the fright at an open house when a hand mysteriously crawls out of a tunnel portal  

Since everything here is covered with brick or rock, you have to go much farther west to see any stucco, so no one carries plastic cement. Maybe I'll try to different types of mortar mix instead. 

Thanks for all the good responses, keep them coming. I may build something yet! 

Michael


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

That grade of burlap is generally used to slow water runoff on slopes. I've been to Dallas; there aren't enough slopes there to bother with. so I wouldn't expect every garden center to carry it. Come to think of it, only Lowe's carries it here; HD does not. 

There is also a burlap that you can get at some fabric stores; that stuff is so densely woven that the cement can't soak all the way through it. For the same reason, old bed sheets, etc, won't work at all. 

Let me know how the mortar works out; I know others who can't get plastic cement either.


----------



## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been reading the posts on how to make mts and they are very helpful. We are going to add some mts and a tunnel to our layout this spring and summer and i see you have painted the cement structures. Has anyone tried adding dye to the cement, if so how did it turn out.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, I _always_ add dye to the mix.  And while the "rocks" do receive subsequent color, the dye helps in the case of areas that don't get much paint, or the paint of mortar chips off.

Terra cotta dye and ruddy red primer used for red lava rocks and sandstone:










And black dye and black and grey paint for black and grey volcanic rock.


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

I remember seeing an article by Russ Larson in Model Railroader some years ago, in which he described building a hollow mountain of concrete on chicken wire. I think that he called it 'ferrocement'. If I can locate the article, I'll post the source. I do remember that the mountain was so strong that Russ could sit on it. 
SandyR


----------



## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a article in garden railways 1997 or 96 i think it was by jack verducci. He talked about forming mts and the cement mixture he used it was pretty detailed and he talked about using dyes and coloring the cement.


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

Michael, The article by Russ Larson was called "Building the Impatiens, Begonia and Northern. It appeared in Model Railroader, April 1990, and the article started on p.95. And here I thought it was only a few years ago...boy, time flies when you're having fun!!! If it is not available from Kalmbach as a back issue, there is a site, I think it's called railroadtreasures.com, that has old model railroading magazines. This is a statement of fact, not an ad. 
SandyR


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

When looking for old copies of various model railroad mags you might also try *www.railpub.com* too.


----------



## kennywsp4 (Jan 3, 2008)

The articles is also reprinted in the book, "Beginner's Guide to Large Scale Model Railroading by Mark Horovitz and Russ Larson". starts on chapter seven. You can still buy this book used on Amazon.com.


----------



## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... real or fake mountains. I know how to add fake mountains to layouts, but adding real ones seems like a bit of a stretch. I have to admit that real mountains would look much better on any layout, so if you decide to go that way, please tell us how you moved the mountains of your choice to your layout.


Mark


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 02/14/2008 1:18 PM
_Hmmm... real or fake mountains. I know how to add fake mountains to layouts, but adding real ones seems like a bit of a stretch. I have to admit that real mountains would look much better on any layout, so if you decide to go that way, please tell us how you moved the mountains of your choice to your layout.


Mark
_


I, along with four guys who were painting the house down the block on their lunch break moved a "real" one on the T&LBRR.  I gave them $20 each.    (Weighs over 500 pounds and about 25% of it is below ground.) 










After it had been inplace for several years, I decided to make it into an active volcano.  This meant boring a hole through the center, carving it out to be the cauldron, and sealing it water-tight.  I then had to dig under it to run the hose and electrical wires.  This was all done using hand tools (and blood).


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

Awesome volcano!!! There are two more really good articles on making concrete mountains. One is 'The Snow Creek Railroad' by Bob Treat, which appeared in Garden Railways Feb. 2005, p.74 ff. The other is 'Make Natural-Looking Rocks from Concrete', which appeared in Garden Railways Aug. 2001, p.62 ff. 
SandyR


----------



## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

If you go to garden railways site there is a article by jack verducci on building mts and how to color them.


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 02/14/2008 1:18 PM
Hmmm... real or fake mountains. I know how to add fake mountains to layouts, but adding real ones seems like a bit of a stretch. I have to admit that real mountains would look much better on any layout, so if you decide to go that way, please tell us how you moved the mountains of your choice to your layout.


Mark




Just look through the archives of previous layouts.  There are numerous stories of those who brought 10-20, I even seem to recall one who brought in something like 74 tons of dirt and rock to add "dimension" to their layout.  Those "real mountains" were moved by wheel barrow, bobcats, front end loaders, dump trucks, or whatever means the builder had at his disposal.

As I am new at this and don't have those kind of resources, I figured I'd like to try something that, if it looks too nasty, I can simply bust up with a sledge hammer and start over.

Honestly, If I knew more of what I was doing and had the resources (I simply LOVE playing with heavy machinery   I'd much prefer real mountains.

Michael


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

I disagree that real mountains would look better on any layout. Mountains need mass to look good. That is fine for you guys that have acres to play with, but 25X29 feet is all I've got, and some of that has to go to walkways. So, I'll take fake.


----------



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

My concrete mountain/tunnel.

Before








After













JimC.


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 02/14/2008 1:18 PM
Hmmm... real or fake mountains. I know how to add fake mountains to layouts, but adding real ones seems like a bit of a stretch. I have to admit that real mountains would look much better on any layout, so if you decide to go that way, please tell us how you moved the mountains of your choice to your layout.


Mark 

I get the impression _some_ of the responders never really got what you actually meant--that it was tongue-in-cheek. Oh well. Myself--I just can't find the room for any of the 5,000 ft (minimum height) mountains anywhere within my model area. Guess I am stuck with coming up with fake ones.


----------



## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

I get the impression _some_ of the responders never really got what you actually meant--that it was tongue-in-cheek. Oh well. Myself--I just can't find the room for any of the 5,000 ft (minimum height) mountains anywhere within my model area. Guess I am stuck with coming up with fake ones.



True, it was means as reflecting my own amusement at what I found to be an absurd question. Even the never addressed the real mountain option.

Mark


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the largest decision to make regarding real or fake mountains is whether your layout is going to be a GARDEN railroad or an outdoor model railroad. 

Real mountains facilitate planting on them. You can still put rock into the soil making up the mountain, but you've got real soil for plants to grow in around the rocks. You can even put in fake rocks as some have done and shown here. On the other hand, if you completely take the fake mountain approach, growing anything on the mountain becomes moot unless you carefully plan in basins of soil for plants to grow in. 

I think your decision has a LOT to do with what you want the layout to look like when you're done. Only you know that. The rest is just variations on building techniques.


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess neither of you have seen some of the layouts that I have seen.  It isn't a moot question at all.


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 02/24/2008 1:24 PM
I get the impression _some_ of the responders never really got what you actually meant--that it was tongue-in-cheek. Oh well. Myself--I just can't find the room for any of the 5,000 ft (minimum height) mountains anywhere within my model area. Guess I am stuck with coming up with fake ones.



True, it was meant as reflecting my own amusement at what I found to be an absurd question. Even (though) they never addressed the real mountain option.

Mark 

I got it, but this just goes to demonstrate that  in this obsession hobby of ours the lines between (is it ) real and (is it) memorex can really get blurred.  Maybe that's a _good _thing!


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 02/14/2008 2:26 PM
Posted By MarkLewis on 02/14/2008 1:18 PM











After it had been inplace for several years, I decided to make it into an active volcano.  This meant boring a hole through the center, carving it out to be the cauldron, and sealing it water-tight.  I then had to dig under it to run the hose and electrical wires.  This was all done using hand tools (and blood).









Very impressive.  Wouldn't mind having one of those on _my _layout !  Original and great work, too.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By astrayelmgod on 02/24/2008 11:50 PM
I guess neither of you have seen some of the layouts that I have seen.  It isn't a moot question at all.


Perhaps moot was too strong a term.  

I've seen LOTS of wonderful concrete "mountains" and will certainly have some on my layout too.  I wasn't knocking the fake mountains at all.  I was just trying to point out that IF you plan to put plants on fake mountains, plan ahead for basins to hold soil for the plant roots.  I've also heard from those layout makers who had fake rockwork that they went back afterwards..and chiseled out pockets in the concrete to hold soil/potting mix for plants.  This was THEIR tip...plan ahead for plants...which means you need to think about how your "vision" for your layout is going to be implemented.


----------



## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

I built the fake mountains in my backyard by piling up dirt and then 

arrangeing rocks on them. This worked ok. Expect the dirt to settle 

and erode some over time and change the appearence of your rocks. A 

friend of mine brought in large piles of rock and then added dirt on 

top. More like what real mountains are like. They can still move (I 

wouldn't recomend rounded river rock) and so carefull attention needs to 

be paid to use deadmen and tiebacks with retaining walls. 

I think I like the look of some of the mountains I've seen scuplted out 

of concrete. I like the blended look you can get, but it takes some 

artistic skill to look good. Rock casting of some sort is easier. I 

have been favorably impressed with using carved styrofoam covered with 

patching cement or stucco. I have read about a mixture of sphagnum peat 

moss, cement, sand and gravel to make good looking containers for 

miniture apline gardens. 

It's important to have good drainage for your plant containers because 

the concrete will chemically effect the ph of the soil to the base side. 

Terl


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

The mixture of peat moss, cement, sand, etc. that Terl mentions is known as hypertufa. A Google search will turn up more information on it than you could ever imagine! It has been a topic on MLS, too. Good stuff. 
SandyR


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Tod, 

Great work


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys.  A couple more:




























And of course with volcanos, you get natural hot springs.


----------



## kennywsp4 (Jan 3, 2008)

Love the hot springs and fossil


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 02/28/2008 10:08 AM
Thanks guys.  A couple more:












And of course with volcanos, you get natural hot springs. 









Nice touch !


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

But, in answer to the original question, my Phase III hills will be _real _fake ones. That is, they will be solid ones requiring many full dumploads of pit run, but_ definitely _not the _real_ thing.


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

Ron, how about including a volcano that 'operates' with a highway flare...or Roman candles! Just kidding! 
SandyR


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SandyR on 03/07/2008 8:52 AM
Ron, how about including a volcano that 'operates' with a highway flare...or Roman candles! Just kidding! 
SandyR
BUT I have a couple of years to consider the possibilities of that suggestion .


----------

