# F7A and F7B unit rear/tail lights?



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I wonder if anyone has some first hand information about F7A and F7B diesel rear or tail lights, specifically the Santa Fe units.
I spent some time googling and came up empty.

Say an F7A loco runs alone at night to transfer to another depot. Are there any lights at the rear of that single loco - if so, where are they located and what colour are they - I would imagine red.
Same question for an F7 A&B combination.


And if the combination ia an A-A or A-B-B-A running by itself at night, do the marker lights on the rear A unit serve as "tail lights"?


Thanks


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting question!
never gave that any thought before..
some googling found: 



light1
(that one could be a modern addition though, not original to the loco)

light2 

light3 
no lights on the B-unit.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/1/4/3614.1244335898.jpglight4

also no lights on the B-unit.

light5 
headlight on the B-unit.

I would guess that headlights or class lights were probably not standard at the rear of F-units..A or B units.
since they simply werent meant to run backwards..and perhaps class-lights werent mandated by law yet for all units..
(flags were probably sufficient during the day..maybe lanterns at night? for the very rare occasions it was necessary..)


then perhaps some railroads later retrofitted lights if they were necessary..
unfortunately there arent many (or any) builders photos that show the rear of cab units!
interesting question.. 

I would guess the vast majority of cab units simply had no lights at all at the rear.. 


Scot


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Last Sept at Marty's Rick Isard had a some F units that he added lights to. There were two red lights ( like tail lights) on the A & B units in the upper left and right corners in the rear. They were Red. 
I an not sure if he put them there for looks or if they are authentic. 

JJ


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 05 Mar 2011 07:02 PM 
I would guess that headlights or class lights were probably not standard at the rear of F-units..A or B units.since they simply werent meant to run backwards..


Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding about the question.........

I'm wondering about some type of tail lights when the engines are running *forwards*, but by themselves, not pulling a train.

You'd think there would be some light in the back - trains usually have them, why not locos?


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

To the best of my knowledge the rear of the A units and both ends of the B units did not have any kind of class or marker lights. One of the problems with the B unit is that they would have needed lights on both ends and this probably was a cost that most railroads just did not feel was necessary when you could establish an operating rule that simply stated that all locomotive consists needed a cab at facing rearward or how ever they would have worded it. When the F style of locomotive was designed they were intended to run a set, either AA, ABA, or ABBA. It was not until the mid to late 1950's that the labor agreements were changed to the point that the railroads could look at each unit as a separate locomotive, this is when all of the F units received distinct numbers. Some but not all of the F units had a back up light and this was added to a lot after the renumbering. If the trailing unit had a backup light it would have been turned on dim as a tail light. None of my models have any kind of marker or class lights on the rear end of the A's or B units, some do have rear facing backup lights that work. I really think that by the time that the ABBA style of running was broken up and the rail road that dispatched an A unit out on the main to travel any distance they would have either made sure that there was either a rear facing unit or a caboose added to mix for rear end protection. It was not until the mid 60's that helper sets were able to run on the main with out a full crew consisting of a engineer, fireman, brakeman and a conductor due to labor agreements.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The USAT F unit has a rear back up light. Very small and mounted to right side of high up. I remember F units on the RR I workded for also had them for when running in reverse in and out of the main pass terminal. Later RJD


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Santa Fe had backup lights mounted on both sides of B units and the rear of the A units. Not sure when they started to show up, but I'm certain they had them in the later years...mid 1960s and up. Not so sure about the early to mid 1950s though.

They were clear. Not red.

Rarely is ever used. Only time I've ever heard of them used was for night switching. But it was super rare for any Santa Fe F unit to run solo. Usually loco transfers were just tagged onto regular scheduled trains. No need for a separate crew just to transfer one loco. For an AA or ABA or ABBA, the red bulb in the upper mars light housing on passenger A units would be used for back up movements. Since freight locos lacked the mars and red lights I guess if they were running alone that the last A units headlight would be lit. But from everything I've read or seen, there was typically always a caboose with markers on movements like these. 

Here is a rare picture of the lone "passenger" Yellow Bonnet B unit. The arrow is pointing to the backup light:















So while I'm not certain if they always had these backup lights, I am certain that by the time of no side skirts, nose lugs, extra grab irons, ACI labels, cinder caps, and other late era spotting features of Santa Fe F units is when they also had backup lights. 

Do a further Google search for F unit "backup lights" and I'm sure you'll find some more info. Hope this helps out.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was under the impression that the lights on both ends of the B was to allow it to be driven by itself, and the engineer peered out one of the portholes. 

I believe this was pretty rare, and never a train, just the B unit. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as I know the B unit had no controls to operate it separately. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Au contraire mon ami!

From Wikipedia:

Some "B" units cannot be moved without a controlling unit attached, but * most *have some simple controls inside, and often a side window at that control station. For example, B unit versions of the EMD FT with conventional couplers had a fifth porthole-style window added on the right side only for the control station. Other models used existing windows. These controls enable a hostler to move the B-unit locomotive by itself in a yard or shops. A hostler is an employee permitted to move locomotives within the confines of a yard or shops complex, but not on the main railroad. B units without controls are generally semi-permanently coupled to controlling units. Sometimes, there is a terminology distinction between the types: a *booster* is a B unit with hostler controls, and a *slave* is a B unit without hostler controls. 


Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg is right that Santa Fe B units had hostler controls. They even had a small horn for this purpose (look closely on the first B unit in the second photo). You can also see backup lights in these photos.






















The B unit hostler controls were rarely used. From what I've read, these controls were used mainly in locomotive servicing facilities when a single B unit needed to be moved a short distance.



The Wikipedia excerpt Greg posted is interesting that it mentions semi-permanently coupled units. Santa Fe never had any F units that were semi-permanently connected. Unlike most FTs, Santa Fe ordered theirs with separate couplers instead of the standard draw bar. This is why the Santa Fe FT B units needed hostlers controls. And why they have that somewhat unique fifth porthole window.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

.......but no real tail lights when an A unit or an AB travelled solo on the main line.....


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By krs on 09 Mar 2011 10:43 AM 
.......but no real tail lights when an A unit or an AB travelled solo on the main line..... Exactly


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

For years the C&EI passenger locos went from the Wansford yards thru Evansville to the L&N Union station , Northside of town to the South side of town .
The F3A and FP7a units had a red bulb , or lens that covered one of the headlights completely , C&EI had two , mars light and a headlight , and for the locos only trip , the rear unit displayed the red headlight to the rear of travel direction .
I saw this many times myself thru the years .


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

When moving lone units from point A to Point B, the RR's usually stuck a caboose on the rear, thus eliminating the need for "Tail lights". These were called Caboose or Cab hops. A move of power was considered a train and they needed a full crew to move the power, so a Caboose with a red marker was used. Remember that F units were used in the days of full crews on a train and the unions did everything in their power to make the RR pay. If the move was within a terminal, regular switching rules applied, but when the locos were moved on the mainline, a caboose was used. I hope this helps.


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