# European Quality - The myth is driven by economics



## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Can we expect better quality in model trains from Europe, even if they are manufactured/assembled/packaged in Asia ?

With the sinking and fragmenting Euro, I'm willing to lay down that Euromarket produced industrial goods (including models/toys) will invariably deteriorate in quality. *Quality can never be a static metric*. While we see many references in various threads to the legendary 'quality' of European cars, for example, I wonder what some members must be referring to when they keep alluding to the legendary 'quality' of Euro goods (and services). Huh ? 

For example:
1. BMW - http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/03/26/bmw-recalling-1-3-million-cars-to-fix-electrical-flaw/http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/03/26/bmw-recalling-1-3-million-cars-to-fix-electrical-flaw/1.3 million cars recalled this year. Yes, this year 2012.
2. VW - http://media.vw.com/newsrelease.do;...gen-announces-voluntary-safety-recall&mid=117http://media.vw.com/newsrelease.do;...gen-announces-voluntary-safety-recall&mid=117159,000+ cars recalled in 2011 (Oct 2011 bulletin from VW)
3. Mercedes - http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/05/autos/mercedes_m-class_recall/index.htmhttp://money.cnn.com/2011/04/05/autos/mercedes_m-class_recall/index.htm137,000 SUVs where cruise control won't shut off - 2011
4. VW/Audi - 170,000 TDI diesels recalled 



All of the above in the last six months to one year !!! Notice that the recalls always happen first in North America and then the Europeans follow up (sometimes and years later) . Why is that ? They never self-examine ? It's time they looked in the rear view mirror themselves. After all the Yugo was also a European product.




Cheers
Victor


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Hmmm.. And I have to wonder how those figures compare with the comparable North American auto makers. Is a recalled and repaired defect worst that parts that don't fit properly, rattle and/or wear out after a few thousand miles, poor design, or other failures of quality? As cars become more and more complex, it is almost inevitable that there should be a few defects of design that slip through the cracks - in fact I am surprised that it doesn't happen more often. The real test is to see what the manufacturers do about the problem. By contract, a shifter bushing which wears out early because it's made of plastic instead of metal is not a recall-worthy defect, it's just crappy design to save a few pennies. I'd rather have a good car be recalled and repaired and then last for 200K+ miles, rather than one that never gets recalled but is done after 100K. 

Of course, we could just as easily be discussing the difference between American and German turnips, for all the good it does when talking about model trains. 

The country or continent of origin has little to do with quality, outside of some cultural prejudice. Germans have a reputation, earned after hundreds of years of manufacturing, of attention to detail, quality workmanship, and quality materials. Italians have a reputation for style, but not so much build quality (Fiat is European, too). The Russians have a reputation for sturdy, if somewhat clunky and unappealing design. All that means is that, knowing absolutely nothing else about a product, if it is made in Germany I might assume it to be of reasonable quality. Honestly, I would think very much the same about a product made in America, or Japan, or England. Individual reputation is still far more important in any market, and no less so in the model railroad market.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

After all the Yugo was also a European product. 
Ahem, 
I think it was a Russian product, and Russia tries hard not to be european. 

(Actually, it was a Fiat 127 before the Russians bought the tooling. My father bought a Lada, which used to be a Fiat 124.)


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Yugo+Slavian product - history here.

@DKR: Certainly there were recalls of US autos. What is most interesting about the 2011 to 2012 North American recalls (NHTSA and voluntary) is the volume of pure US made auto recalls went down. Nowhere close to the numbers we have seen in prior years. 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-u-s-for-delay-in-reporting-auto-defects.html

Another alarming trend by certain European manufacturers - the late reporting of known defects - invoked a significant Civil Penalty in February this year. 


Victor.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

As an American auto enthusiast, I think most people agree there are two distinct classes of European cars. 
1. really good European cars. 
2. really bad European cars. 

German automobile quality has always been excellent. 
BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes..all generally excellent. 

English and French cars are usually considered about the worst ever.. 
Jaguar, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault..all generally terrible.. 

of course there are exceptions..but overall, that is about right.. 
globally, I would rank auto quality and reliability, from best to worst:

Japan (still the best)
German and American (tied for 2nd place)

English/French (still the worst)

40 years ago, American cars would have been at the bottom of the list..

but the Japanese car invasion of the 1970's - 1990's really made American car companys
clean up their act..I owned a Honda Civic 1997 to 2007..amazing quality..
Now I drive a 2009 Ford Focus..I have to say, the Focus is the equal of the Civic.. 


Scot


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By VictorSpear on 24 May 2012 08:09 AM 
Certainly there were recalls of US autos.....


I wish tere was such a thing as recalls for Large Scale model trains.
The LS manufacturer usually claims there is no problem, or if you talk to a manufacturer rep directly, the problem you have is always the first they ever heard of it.

The onlyfull fledged LS recall I can think of right now is the one for the Brawa RhB steam loco, I suppose there must have been others.


Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Can we expect better quality in model trains from Europe, even if they are manufactured/assembled/packaged in Asia ? 


Not if we don't demand it! It seems like Aristo and others who rely on getting everything done in China are content to use the "next run" QC method, and so far they've gotten away with it because their products are so cheap (in more ways than one) and the cost & hassle of returns for the consumer has been high relative to the price of the product. As their prices rise, I expect that will change. 
Piko, on the other hand, with control of their own factories in China and Germany, have been able to control their products relatively well, though not entirely without issues either. Maerklin, who are relying as little as possible on Chinese production seem to have issues more with assembly than with engineering design & production, so those types of issues I would expect to disappear as the workforce in Gjor and Goppingen get more experience with the LGB products. 
I think in general quality will rise because the cost to deal with complaints will continue to rise, but to answer your question I do think in general the European manufacturers take QC/QA more seriously than their N/A counterparts, and are better positioned to make changes when issues arise because they are more in control of their own design and production. 
In my experience the Europeans are still way ahead when it comes to good engineering, and at the end of the day that is more important because at least the hobbyist can easily fix an assembly issue, but not something like bad engineering (the flanges on Aristo wheels comes to mind). 

Keith


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 24 May 2012 09:00 AM 
As an American auto enthusiast, I think most people agree there are two distinct classes of European cars. 
1. really good European cars. 
2. really bad European cars. 

German automobile quality has always been excellent. 
BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes..all generally excellent. 

English and French cars are usually considered about the worst ever.. 
Jaguar, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault..all generally terrible.. 

of course there are exceptions..but overall, that is about right.. 
globally, I would rank auto quality and reliability, from best to worst:

Japan (still the best)
German and American (tied for 2nd place)

English/French (still the worst)

40 years ago, American cars would have been at the bottom of the list..

but the Japanese car invasion of the 1970's - 1990's really made American car companys
clean up their act..I owned a Honda Civic 1997 to 2007..amazing quality..
Now I drive a 2009 Ford Focus..I have to say, the Focus is the equal of the Civic.. 


Scot 
Scot I would agree with this assessment of European cars ...if it was still 1990. 

The thing is that the reputations of alot of these cars is out of date. In the last decade some of these cars have made some very amazing recoveries. Today Fiat is considered on of the best cars in Europe now, Renault Peugot Citroen while most are uninspiring drivers, are at least reliable. Jaguar seams to be doing very very well in the US, at $100K a pop I doubt rich folks would tolerate buying junk. Why is this? because where the Yugo, and its Fiat forefathers during the 80's were still being assembled by human hand just like Henry Fords Model T, today almost every single auto in the world is designed, engineered, tooled, by computer and assembled by robotics. Many of these cars use a common proven very dependable platform as there base, so the basic level of quality has vastly improved since the days when Sergie and Boris would swig vodka before pounding the dashboard into a Yugo with a mallet.

This also applies to American cars, the Ford Focus is a light years better car today than its counterpart from 1985 for the same reasons, CAD and robot assembly. 

It China almost everything LS is still doing final assembly by hand, thats the nature of things but I have to wonder, how much of the basic development engineering is still being done by hand and how much is developed on CAD. Seams like things like the flange business (and others) would have been more apparent using CAD with accepted tolerance standards built in at the start.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

but I have to wonder, how much of the basic development engineering is still being done by hand and how much is developed on CAD. 

I suspect most train manufacturers are using CAD now, but it still takes someone with experience and common sense running the computer to produce something useful. The Marklin TV episodes spend quite a bit of time showing how much effort and thought goes into their products from the start to the assembly, and I think where things start going wrong is when the designers are separated from the production. If you are doing or at least controlling both you have a chance to nip things in the bud. There was one show where they showed how much thought was put into final assembly and trial fitting, and how each piece must not interfere with others etc. Now look at Aristo (sorry but they're a good example) of how not to do it. The left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing, and the right hand doesn't know what the left hand was thinking, and you end up with a mess that only gets corrected but subsequent runs (if you're lucky). On the flanges I'm convinced some CAD monkey forgot the last step of machining the taper on the flange and nobody caught it in time. Not enough people complained to make it worthwhile to change it so they left it alone. Once a configuration came along that wasn't so forgiving, they were screwed and had to finally deal with it. It just goes to show that all the technology in the world can't fix stupid. 
Keith


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 29 May 2012 11:38 AM 
but I have to wonder, how much of the basic development engineering is still being done by hand and how much is developed on CAD. 

I suspect most train manufacturers are using CAD now, but it still takes someone with experience and common sense running the computer to produce something useful. The Marklin TV episodes spend quite a bit of time showing how much effort and thought goes into their products from the start to the assembly, and I think where things start going wrong is when the designers are separated from the production. If you are doing or at least controlling both you have a chance to nip things in the bud. There was one show where they showed how much thought was put into final assembly and trial fitting, and how each piece must not interfere with others etc. Now look at Aristo (sorry but they're a good example) of how not to do it. The left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing, and the right hand doesn't know what the left hand was thinking, and you end up with a mess that only gets corrected but subsequent runs (if you're lucky). On the flanges I'm convinced some CAD monkey forgot the last step of machining the taper on the flange and nobody caught it in time. Not enough people complained to make it worthwhile to change it so they left it alone. Once a configuration came along that wasn't so forgiving, they were screwed and had to finally deal with it. It just goes to show that all the technology in the world can't fix stupid. 
Keith 
With regards to Aristo (probably Bachmann also) I have to wonder just how many just people are involved between the pilot model (CAD documents, drawings, built model, etc) arriving in China from the US and its eventual appearance on the production line assembly belt, and just who over there has the authority to make changes due to fabrication issues. I see the whole flange thing being more about someone in the PRC industrial machine seeing they could make 1/2 cent per wheel extra profit by eliminating tooling the wheel flange to the correct size, after all, who'll notice it, its just stupid TOY trains, just make your production numbers or you'll be selling day old fishy food on a Shanghai street corner. Thats a prevelent mentality that allows QC stuff like this or loose screws or bad wiring, its the general "who give a sh*t just get it done" attitude on the PRC side of things.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

generally speaking 
the quality of my LGB trains, my BMW, my Volvo, my Sigg hiking bottles, my Siwiss pocket knives, English shoes, 
and just about everything else is always pricey, but delivers value, as i see value-simply i am happier with quality and satisfaction with the product even if they cost more, and even if they are not flawless 

also very happy with japanese goods-camera, tv, trains, knives, whiskey 

i would always pay more for something that lasts and can be repaired due to service and parts 

to me its not a myth


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Hmm.., perhaps I ( and 1.3 million+ others) am among the few unlucky ones to pay a premium and get stiffed. This is my fourth BMW 7 in the last 20 years - the only model I've been driving, changing every five years - before, during and after the Bangle era. Each one of *significant deteriorating quality *and cheap plastics that gives me a sinking feeling that the car is made of paper.Two transmissions replaced within 90,000 miles on separate models . The latest 7 was a bad design with the known coolant pipe problem that cracked and needed the entire engine blocked opened at 80,000 miles to replace the pipe. The design was *flawed *- they stuffed the coolant pipe inside the engine block !! Meanwhile my wife drives a Jeep with 200,000 miles in hard off-road construction zones every day (real estate type). Synthetic oil change every 4k miles - that's it. She laughs when I ask to for a ride in the Jeep to go pick up the car.

Or my latest Nespresso machine picked up in Hamburg that leaks after 400 cartridges and auto-dilutes the coffee - just bad luck I guess !!!


Perhaps you haven't bought American lately ?

Cheers anyway,

Victor.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Part of the problem right across the board is that with increasing competition from all around the globe comes cost-cutting and less of what I call over-engineering. For example, in the past Caterpillar used to engineer their wheel loaders so they would never hurt themselves. They would last and last and could be rebuilt many times. Then the overseas competition came along with lighter, more powerful & quicker machines that kicked their butts on production but were more disposable. As usual (and the source of the real problem here), most consumers took the short term view of what value is, and Cat was forced to do the same with their machines, to the detriment of longevity and reliability. A Cat engineer told me "we could build you a machine that will never breakdown, but you could never afford it". Sums it up I think. In a parallel way, Piko has been putting pressure on Maerklin, and now you see Maerklin coming out with a new standard-gauge locomotive (http://lgb.de/de/produkte/besondere_angebote/top-modell_e10.html)that doesn't use Buhler motors, and is aimed directly at Piko. Fortunately they are still keeping their traditional methods for the RhB products like the upcoming Allegra, but it's clear they have decided it's best to create two levels instead of compromising their core products. 

Keith


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

Anyone that says a French car was unreliable, never owned one or serviced them for a living. 

The AMC-built Renaults do not count (they were terrible) but as someone that owned and serviced Peugeots and Citroens with well over 100K on the clock to a friend with a 1982 Peugeot 604 Turbodiesel with just shy of 1M miles on the clock (driven weekly between NYC and Miami and back by a business owner for a couple decades) that still runs like a watch. 

Keith has a point, the Europeans had some issues when they had to build their cars to a price point, thanks to Lexus, Acura et al. The Merc W124 compared to the W210 is the best example of this, why a clean W124 will bring a lot more than a W210.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

I used to own a Renault R4 (small station wagen with a 3 speed shifter protruding from the dashboard,when shifting you need to watch out for your passenger so you don't knock him out) as 

a student and the everoccuring money shortage it was a cheap car very reliable ,you could not kill the engine,with a 180 000 KM on it it would go everywhere,really good reliable student car till the wheels fell off !( some strut problem= rust,heavy salted roads in Germany!) 
Manfred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Manfred, were you bored that you felt you needed to revive this long dormant thread? Not even about trains? 

We can give you some busy work, come over my house, I need some couplers mounted. Free room and board. 

Greg


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