# Lionel 4-4-2 Atlantic Mod Log.



## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

So i was finally able to acquire a Lionel 4-4-2. 








Pulling from the helpful pages from Gary ElMassian https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=217&Itemid=253
and George Schreyer http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/atlantic_tips.html 
I thought i might try and make a mod log for this engine.

The goals of this mod log are to..
#1 Do a tear down to become familiar with the engine and try to identify possible weak points.
#2 To correct those problemed areas.
#3 Make cosmetic enhancements that may or may not be accurate.

Because funds are always limited this is something that may transpire over a matter of time.
updates may be few and far between, however stay tuned, there is,
More to come!

*_____________________________________________________________________________*
*Update 2-17-2018 *
Found a great mod log over at Gscaletrainforum
http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/index.php?/topic/1011-lionel-atlantic-ps3-upgrade-with-smoke/
Will be studying this closely.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

One of the first things that caught my attention with this engine is that it seems to be a visible representation of a struggle between a Lionel model railroad enthusiast and the accounting department. The model is very neat and finished well. mold lines and seams are kept to a minimum. there is surprising detail on the conductor and engineer that came with the engine. and while the side rod and driving gear are plastic, they are nicely detailed. 
However,, you can feel the influence of the accounting department in it's weight alone, it's extremely lite for such a large engine. it's liteness combined with the limited amount of electrical pickups cause issues on my track , especially when the engine rolls over a turnout with a plastic frog, the engine jerks and sputters displaying a definite loss of power. So this will be one of the first area's i will explore.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

OldNoob said:


> it's liteness combined with the limited amount of electrical pickups cause issues on my track , especially when the engine rolls over a turnout with a plastic frog, the engine jerks and sputters displaying a definite loss of power. So this will be one of the first area's i will explore.


Take a look at some of the "Keep Alive" boards (also known as "Current Keepers") now available. Far easier than trying to install additional pickups. Just make sure they're rated for your voltage.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Dwight Ennis said:


> Take a look at some of the "Keep Alive" boards (also known as "Current Keepers") now available. Far easier than trying to install additional pickups. Just make sure they're rated for your voltage.


 Ah, that is interesting,, So basically a cap board. Might be worth looking into.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did extend the power pickup to the tender, made a world of difference, my Pacific would stall on Aristo switches.

I would like to add pickups to more wheels, but the tender added was sufficient.

Of course, the ball bearing wheels and fitting them to the tender are more work than Dwight's suggestion.

Greg - 245


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Looks like the bachmann pilot wheels will work OK . Should be pretty easy to rig them for power pickup.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Which bachmann are those wheels from?

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Which bachmann are those wheels from?
> 
> Greg


 They are basically big hauler pilot truck wheels , but in this case they have the 2-6-0 mogul center or insert.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok question for the knowledgeable. 
One of the drive wheels on the lionel is slightly cammed resulting in a slight, _ all be it noticeable at scale speed _,* oscillating nose dip*. I don't have a lathe or the proper tools to separate the wheel set. and i would be afraid of breaking the plastic. so aside from trying to use a jewelers file to even it out,, does anyone have any other suggestions?


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Since the Bachmann wheels already has a bit of ridge at the meeting of the shaft and wheel it was necessary to remove a little under a millimeter of the protruding ring on the lionel truck.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

It takes a bit of trail and error to get the contacts to fit properly so the there is constant connection and the wheels still turn easily.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

The pilot pickups are a huge success! No more mister Sparky Spark, as entertaining as that was.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How about showing it going through a switch with a plastic frog?


Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> How about showing it going through a switch with a plastic frog?
> 
> 
> Greg


Very good idea!




Before it would jerk and literally skid through the frog.

One thing i have noticed is a very slight front to rear rock. i checked the quartering and the wheal set seats. i can only assume one of the wheels is cammed somewhat.
Also the headlamp apparently couldn't withstand the uninterrupted power directly from the track. It was nice and bright but it blew out within a few minutes of operation. and i marked all the wires before i disconnected it so it was reconnected in the same polarity as it was before i disassembled it. 
So i guess a rectifier and regulator will be on order as well.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Maybe you just need to tie your leads into the ones from the drivers, obviously you bypassed the loco's regulator ...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's success, running slowly mine would stall on Aristo switches, and even then only 4 points of power pickup was not good.

I'll follow your lead on the pilot, although I might use thinner wipers, I'm a little concerned about getting the tension right.

Yeah, those are big drivers, it would be nice to true them up a bit on a lathe.

Mine had a burned out headlight too, seems that they picked a bulb that was more like a 12v bulb than a 24v bulb.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Totalwrecker said:


> Maybe you just need to tie your leads into the ones from the drivers, obviously you bypassed the loco's regulator ...


wish it had a regulator. i'm actually ordering one today.
Just looking at it, it seems Lionel wired the bulb directly to the motor which apparently provided some sort of regulation to the bulb. Hard to say because there were wirenuts on the connections so the loco had been opened up before.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Once I added some weight to the loco and wire the tender for pick up mine runs great. I just installed an LED for head light. Later RJD


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I had seen this on other 4-4-2 mod logs but it still surprises me that Lionel chose to use a ziptie to secure the motor. While it is a very good zip tie i felt maybe adding a few to help share the load would be benificial. Now here's hoping they don't break and strip up the gears  
This is a mod i will probably revisit. I can't help but wonder, due to the unused holes in the chassis that maybe Lionel had originally designed some sort of metal stirrup to hold the motor


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

aceinspp said:


> Once I added some weight to the loco and wire the tender for pick up mine runs great. I just installed an LED for head light. Later RJD


Yes Added weight was a definite mod to do. I found it interesting that the Lionel weight screws aligned up perfectly with a Bachmann weight. Go figure Which was convenient for me since i had one laying around. Although ideally i would of preferred the weight location to be lower.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The wire nuts are stock issue.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> The wire nuts are stock issue.
> 
> Greg


wow really?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep and the too skinny wires and the headlight as a screw in type.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Now turning attention to the lighting.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, they send Morse code too! 

Green in all directions?

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Hey, they send Morse code too!
> 
> Green in all directions?
> 
> Greg


yeah , im sure it's not accurate.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

that was dot dot dash, dash dash dash... 

U S



Greg


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## Crisolite (Jan 9, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> that was dot dot dash, dash dash dash...
> 
> U S
> 
> ...


U O?

Or did I miss something?


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Crisolite said:


> U O?
> 
> Or did I miss something?


Yep i think it's UO,,, a subtle reminder that i need to stop messing around and finish something and sell some things because i have bills to pay.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok finished the headlamp. I drilled out the number plates, lined the bulb barrel with aluminum foil tape leaving a slot on each side for the number plate. I then cut tiny tracks into the number plate housing , then fashioned some plates from clear packaging plastic and put a thin coat of white paint on the back side of the plates and then slid them into place. 
All bulbs are 3v LEDs running at 2.8v with a 165ohm resister for each bulb. They are not at full brightness so i think i have enough overcurrent protection going on.








I figure i would , if i decide on a number, put vinyl numbers on the plate then paint it black and then remove the vinyl numbers so that the unpainted numbers would appear illuminated.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

This engine looks too happy. Going to have to change something.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very nice... so how about the tender? If I remember right, it came with plastic wheels, and was very light. A big speaker helped:


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Very nice... so how about the tender? If I remember right, it came with plastic wheels, and was very light. A big speaker helped:


Great speaker.
Probably will address the tender wheels in two weeks. 
As far as Sound?? probably never. darn things are so expensive


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nah, you can get $75 sound boards, or go the Revolution system, sound is basically free with the R/C system.

That's only a 3.3" speaker, I have gotten a 4" + speaker in a tender, the magnet was almost touching the tender walls... but boy does it have bass!

You might keep your eyes open for a used Sierra board for a few bucks.

Greg





Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Installed a Dome light in the cab, but i think i used too high of a resistor.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a bit hard to see in the video, but you don't want it real bright!

Greg


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

Why does just about everyone insist on lighting the classification lights. They were only lighted at night, and only with white lenses, if it was an extra train, not on the timetable, or with green lenses if it was a second section of a carded train....no lights during daylight hours....green or white flags were used.
Fred Mills


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Fr.Fred said:


> Why does just about everyone insist on lighting the classification lights. They were only lighted at night, and only with white lenses, if it was an extra train, not on the timetable, or with green lenses if it was a second section of a carded train....no lights during daylight hours....green or white flags were used.
> Fred Mills


Coolness and modeler's license. Simple.


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Gary Raymond used to sell a set of metal replacements for the leading, trailing truck and tender but no more. What metal wheels would work for the tender?? A modeler on one of the web sites sent in his plastic side rods to a 3d printer who did them in medal for him looked great. I think is was XOMETRY that did them. These engines also make great 2-8-0 heavies if you can find a Aristo 8 wheel brick which an easy mod with a perfect fit. Jack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The trucks look really small, I need to measure them, perhaps better to change them out...

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Painted the interior of the cab green today.... no rhyme or reason, just spur of the moment thing. 









Not at all acurite, but i don't want to sink too much into it. Also Google was oddly not very forthcoming with searches for a cab view of the 4-4-2 Atlantic.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

I searched Hi and Low for a Thomas and Friends rolling stock wheel. But all i could fine was a whole hopper for nearly 70 dollars. I did however find this wheel which is one of the drive wheels from a consolidation outside frame. i figure i can turn down the shaft to the correct thickness and tweek the truck a bit. On the plus side, the wheel is very heavy and i will be able to run power pickups on it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I have some of the Thomas truck wheels and the coach wheels, if you are still looking.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Pete Thornton said:


> I think I have some of the Thomas truck wheels and the coach wheels, if you are still looking.


Thank you for the offer. i think i will try to make this one work. However i will be doing another mod in the future. I'll keep you in mind.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Lighting done.
The lenses are made from the existing glass rhinestones. The lenses would pop out when a cavity for the led was drilled out.
Then i enlarged to light openings . i then used a dremel to grind down a flat on the back of of the stone. this proved somewhat challenging as the glass has a tendency to chip if held to tight or the dremel's speed was above or below 5k rpm. apparently that was some sort of vibration safe spot. 
Then after threading in the LED i replaced the thr rhinestone lenses. grinding off the back of the rhinestones created enough space for the LED to sit between them. 
The trailing lights appear orange in the video , but they are actually red.


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

I have two Lionel Atlantic and hopefully a third on the way. I have done a few mods to it from George Schreyers page. I need to add the power pick-ups either on the tender or the pony truck, which looks to be easier. My biggest concern is when it travels thru a insulated frog turnout, that over a period of time it will strip the gears from the jerking it does.. Awesome work on your locomotive...What size LED did you use on the marker lights?. I am going to add Led headlight when I get some resistors to use...
Travis.......


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

general1861 said:


> ..What size LED did you use on the marker lights?. I am going to add Led headlight when I get some resistors to use...
> Travis.......


They are a walmart wire lights, very small LEDs, in fact i had to use my Jewelers eyepiece to find the cathode side markings.
I think it was like 5 dollars for a string of 30 some lights.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

LATHE!? We don't need no stinking lathe!
Seriously though, i wish i had a lathe.
Turing the consolidated outside frame drive wheels down to fit properly in the trailing truck of the 4-4-2.








This was done via drill and dremel with cutoff disk, then file, then 400 grit, then 700 grit, then 1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then polishing cloth.


.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Thought i might ad some pickups on the trailing truck as well


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Ok i decided i would like to try to run two 4-4-2 Atlantics in tandem , but this was going to prove problematic with 5' dia curves. so i set about trying to modify the coupler. The only solution was to figure out how to attach a coupler to the front pilot wheels and still look good and allow the pilot truck to still function well.
I found some hard metal used for hanging curtain rods and began to shape it








use of a washer or spacer allows the swing arm and couple arm to move freely without binding




















more to come


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)




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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

looks nice, how about another video closer to track level?

Regards, Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Modifying another 4-4-2 front truck. This time i decided to use the small bachmann wheels.
One thing i notice right off was that the bachmann plastic sleeves on the wheel axles were just a tad too tight of a fit for the opening on the lionel truck. So i decided to bore out the opening just a tad, in fact only a very very small amount of boring or honeing is required.









Alternatively, if one didn't want to modify the truck,, the plastic sleeve on the bachmann wheel could be turned down a hair








Ither method seems to work fine.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

After a touch of paint the Bachmann small wheels look acceptable.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Were they these wheels? I did not realize they still sold wheels with plastic centers.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Were they these wheels? I did not realize they still sold wheels with plastic centers.
> 
> https://www.trainsetsonly.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Master/M160/lg160-
> 92422_200x350.jpg


the center is metal but i just painted them black. However, i think bachmann did away with the solid metal axle. now it is a small metal axle rod covered by plastic sleeves


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm.... I thought that the plastic centers were the old version and the all metal solid axle was the new ones.

But I went to the site and indeed the picture shows plastic "axles"s... on both the small and large... 

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Hmm.... I thought that the plastic centers were the old version and the all metal solid axle was the new ones.
> 
> But I went to the site and indeed the picture shows plastic "axles"s... on both the small and large...
> 
> Greg


What's odd is these wheels came in the newer "Spectrum" labeled packaging . i guess now we have to search for older stock to get the metal axles


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, weird that they changed "backwards" to an older design that people liked less.

I also noticed some metal axled "finescale" wheels: (32.5 mm)










Greg - 28 !!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Yeah, weird that they changed "backwards" to an older design that people liked less.
> 
> I also noticed some metal axled "finescale" wheels: (32.5 mm)
> 
> ...


Not a good flange corner contour!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, absolutely no fillet to speak of!

I cannot tell from the picture if both wheels are insulated from the axle or just one.

Greg - 26


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Moving on to some Sound! Yey! purchased a PiKO Soundraxx card.
This card actually has a ton of customizable sounds. 
There is a two page key code chart for the various sounds, unfortunately one has to buy the 400 dollar remote to change it  
The stock sounds are actually very good to start. I'll post a video once i get it up and running.
Maybe later down the road ill get a NCE power CAB or PIKO controller to customize the sounds.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Can you say "Cubital Tunnel Syndrome" ill probably be mr tingle and numb fingers for the next week now, but this is the best way i could think of doing this, as a dremel would just melt everything.
I was hoping i would cut into the hollow area, but sadly it was solid all the way through.









Making it workable









I'm hoping this will work for the volume controls


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Did you make those hinges or can they be purchased somewhere? I like the look of them.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

placitassteam said:


> Did you make those hinges or can they be purchased somewhere? I like the look of them.


Made from scrap brass sheets and i use bead making headpins for the hingepin


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

The 30mm PIKO pikup wheels are a tad large. Mostly it's the huge flanges that are a problem , but they work OK with some trimming of the frame and a washer. ( couldn't get in contact with to Gary for smaller wheels) I suspect the wheels will really bounce when they hit the switches.









The PIKO reed switch assemble will fit into the Lionel truck with a tad bit of modding


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> couldn't get in contact with to Gary for smaller wheels


I hope you mean Gary Raymond, as Gary Watkins is out of the business and not returning deposits.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Pete Thornton said:


> I hope you mean Gary Raymond, as Gary Watkins is out of the business and not returning deposits.


Yes, Gary Raymond. i wanted the 25mm with pickups but could not contact him.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Last contact I had was last summer: [email protected]


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Pete Thornton said:


> Last contact I had was last summer: [email protected]


Thanks, i probably goofed up the email address at my end


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

So with the addition of a sound decoder there a need for more wires and connections.









and the fabrication of a little protective housing.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

don't suppose there is a way to lower the steam hiss without a remote for the sound decoder?? Maybe a non-polarized capacitor on the speaker to filter out anything above 1300htz??


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Sound teat 2. The Lionel really needs more gear reduction. it is greatly affected by curves and even magnets. Later maybe, i might replace the drive gearing with some geared reduction boxes.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Modifying another trailing truck.
I searched high and low for a 41mm wheel but just could not find any. so i decided to try and use a PIKO 35mm low drag pickup wheel.
I wanted to keep the truck at the same hight so i decided to modify the truck and drill a new hub sleeve hole 3mm lower than the stock one. this required cutting off the access door
This would basically keep the trailing truck the same hight as it was with the 41mm wheel.









The door was then glued back into place and secured with pins that were heat sunk into the truck.
What sould of been a simple solution turned out to be a bit of a messy fix... But it works.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Love the mods so far, will be picking up a PRR version here shortly. I run on board battery power, so the power pickups isnt something I have to deal with. With the advant of 3d printing in metal. Would be wonderful if someone printed and offered a new set of metal rods and valve gear since this is most easily broken due to be super fragile. Mike


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Mike Toney said:


> Love the mods so far, will be picking up a PRR version here shortly. I run on board battery power, so the power pickups isnt something I have to deal with. With the advant of 3d printing in metal. Would be wonderful if someone printed and offered a new set of metal rods and valve gear since this is most easily broken due to be super fragile. Mike


Yep metal centered wheels and valve gearing would be nice. However there will come a point where im going to have to ask myself why i didn't just invest in a Aster or a MTH with protosound 3 already installed. LOL


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I searched high and low for a 41mm wheel but just could not find any.


_Your name isn't actually Dennis, is it? He's been looking for some for the same reason._

Bachmann Thomas coaches and trucks have very large wheels. The coach seems to be about 40mm. I have a collection bought from a guy in the UK who converted the coaches to 32mm and bogies/trucks.




















I won't be back in MD (where they are located) until the end of May.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Pete Thornton said:


> _Your name isn't actually Dennis, is it? He's been looking for some for the same reason._
> 
> Bachmann Thomas coaches and trucks have very large wheels. The coach seems to be about 40mm. I have a collection bought from a guy in the UK who converted the coaches to 32mm and bogies/trucks.
> 
> ...


Save me a Set please Pete. I'll be getting back up with you in June.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup, the Thomas coach wheels are 1.75", 44m. I have lots of them.


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## Clubber (Jan 4, 2020)

I just bought a NOS Atlantic. Where/ how do I get in touch with that guy that 3D prints metal side rods? 
XOMETRY


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

where did you hear of those? got a post or link or web page?


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## Clubber (Jan 4, 2020)

Post #39. I sent a message to the poster also.

Are the 5th generation Annie’s the only ones which have the correct sized weights to fit into the Atlantic?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

ahh, XOMETRY was the company.... yes you can get virtually anything done for a price.

Would you be prepared to spend like $150 to $200?

Just curious... won't be cheap...

weights are easy... did you read my pages on mods to the Atlantic?


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## Clubber (Jan 4, 2020)

Greg. Yes I have been poring over yours and schreyers pages. Thank you both for the info. I probably will end up using those sinkers. But I figured I would try the ten wheeler weight option first since it appears it drops in with no modifications. I am not familiar though with gens 1-4 to know if the weight block is the same or if they even have one.

I was hoping that the rods would be a bit cheaper since they seem to already have the scan (or whatever a 3D mold is called) done. They would just have to print them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

if you succeed let us know, would like metal siderods myself....

re weights: I don't get your inference from George's site...
Below is how George added weights:









Never liked it...

Here's how I did it:









I think my way looks much nicer and it's less work.

Who used the ten wheeler weights, and do you have a link or picture?

Greg


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## Clubber (Jan 4, 2020)

Post #20. Though he just said Bachman weight. Seems I assumed 10 wheeler.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Clubber said:


> Post #20. Though he just said Bachman weight. Seems I assumed 10 wheeler.


That is way less weight, won't pull like what George and I did. Where would you buy one cheaper?


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## Clubber (Jan 4, 2020)

I didn’t realize the Bachman weight was so light. How did you mount the weights?


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Great looking work


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Weights with double stick tape, just don't leave it upside down in the sun for a long time.

There are 5 pages on the Atlantic on my site, here's the link to the main page and there are links to the 4 sub pages:






4-4-2 Atlantic


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




elmassian.com





Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

With the bachmann weight and a couple of fishing weights added the engine alone weighed almost 12 pounds.
It had no problem pulling anything. Of course adding power pickup to every wheel also helped.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yep, properly set up, a **** of a puller...


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