# LGB Hand Cars (2001) and PWC



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I have recently obtained a used hand car (stamped made in Western Germany. Paperwork in the box indicates a mid-80s manufacture date). I was running it with the aristo PWC power pack when it suddenly stopped. In my troubleshooting, I noticed the motor was really hot and I could smell warm electricals. 

First question: Has anyone ever run in to problems with motors overheating in an LGB Hand Car 2001 using an Aristo craft starter set 1amp controller? 

I took the car apart last night to see if the motor was completely fried. 

This is a really simple locomotive. Power pick ups feed the motor leads directly. It is a Buhler motor, but of course, I don't have the exact model number here. 
I tried a 9v battery to the leads, motor turns no problem. 
All the solder leads looked ok. I did notice a pair of the leads looked like they had been pinched at some point, so maybe I should just replace those to be safe. 
The brushes for power pick up were dirty so I cleaned them using LGB smoke fluid. How short should I let those get before replacing? They looked to be about 3/8" (9.5mm)

I tried it on the track again with my trust old PH Hobbies 3amp DC power pack. It would move forward about an inch then stop. Perhaps there is a broken wire that makes intermitten contact. I was able to eventually get it to run around the track. 

Also, there appears to be a slight 'tick' in the pump action. Any ideas on how to trouble shoot that would be appreciated. 

Thanks,

Mark


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Mark,

The PWC and LGB Motors dont get along so i was warned many times.

I only run analog power to everything so this doesnt happen.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup, I had heard the same warnings! PWC + LGB = trouble!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've heard the same, but also a lot of people who did not have the problem, even on PWC.. (of course these are locos that do not have a DCC/MTS decoder.) 

Hard to tell if it is a coreless motor, that will definitely heat up. 

So, straight DC works fine? Sounds like you have a couple of other problems to solve first. My guess is that you still have pickup problems and a bind, and those together with some added heat from the PWC all added up. 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've heard the same, but also a lot of people who did not have the problem, even on PWC.. (of course these are locos that do not have a DCC/MTS decoder.) 

Hard to tell if it is a coreless motor, that will definitely heat up. 

So, straight DC works fine? Sounds like you have a couple of other problems to solve first. My guess is that you still have pickup problems and a bind, and those together with some added heat from the PWC all added up. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys,

I had heard that PWC and LGB sound boards were not good to mix. I guess it applies to small motors as well. 

(Weird, I had more to this post and it didn't show up in the post.)

Greg, I think you are right. That's the reason for the brush wear question. I don't know if these are now too short and don't make good contact with the inside of the wheels anymore. 

The other possibility is that this hand car has been in storage for a long time (just a guess) and it really needs to be run a bit before it will become a reliable runner.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you know for certain it worked properly prior to you buying it? Sounds to me like the motor is gone...they heat up and act just as you say once they are done for. Brushes sound fine...but I'm guessing you will need to replace the motor. That controller should be no problem...it's some of the sound boards that didn't like PWM but just straight motor shouldn't hurt it at all. There was a period when the Buhler motors were cheapened, and I suspect you have one of them. Clean the wheels, brushes, oil it up and if it still doesn't work you'll have to bite the bullet and replace the motor. 

Keith


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith,

Rats. I did notice the motor works OK now, though. I'm holding on to the hope that I just need to resolder two wires.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hopefully that's all it is!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Dec 2010 12:15 PM 
I've heard the same, but also a lot of people who did not have the problem, even on PWC.. (of course these are locos that do not have a DCC/MTS decoder.) 

Hard to tell if it is a coreless motor, that will definitely heat up. 


Greg,

None of the Buehler motors that LGB uses in their main product line are coreless - the German coreless motors used in higher end models are made by Faulhaber and are typically just referred to as such - Faulhaber motors.

The motor used in the LGB 2001 is a smaller motor than the typical one used in the larger engines, thus it tends to get warmer especially when running with a PWM signal of a relatively low frequency.

I have used Aristo PWC with LGB engines without problems - the old sound systems however don't work properly since the equivalent DC voltage "seen" is the peak PWC voltage and you get a sound as if the loco is running at full speed even if it's just crawling along. So I use the linear mode with the TE or a DC throttle.


Regards, 

Knut

PS: Faulhaber recommends that the PWM frequency driving their motors when used with a decoder is 16 KHz or higher to prevent overheating.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Stay away from PWC when running LGB locos


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I added a 15 microfarad non-polarized capacitor to my Aristo reverser and have run the LGB 'cow' engine on a track for 8 years with no problem. 
I have 8 cars with metal wheels behind this little engine, works great for me. 

It is the sound and MTS units that do not like some of the pulsed power by Aristo.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Update:

Last night, I had a chance to take another look at this hand car. I removed the motor and turned the wheels while looking down at the axle/gear/cam as it moved. I was looking for something that was bumping the cam to cause the jerkiness. What I found, however, was that the gear had a deformed gear tooth. Since I don't have the time to order the exact part, I took apart another LGB engine I had on hand, a 2061 diesel that I never run anymore. I got that gear off it's axle, but I had to cut half the shoulder off so that the cam could work. Once replaced, I tested the hand car and it worked perfectly. 

The old gear was a gray plastic gear and looked like it was made from PVC. The gear from the 2061 was white nylon. I see that I can order the axle with the gear and cam on it from Train-Li, but it looks like that same crappy gear that split and broke on this unit. Anyone ever use this gear pairing successfully? 

Mark


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I have never, in the last 25 years anyway, had any issue whatsoever running lgb stuff on PWC. 
Of course, that's older sounds, and NEVER anything with mts in it (bypassed or cut out). 
The motors don't care, the gears don't care, the pickups don't care. 

It's when you get too much "technology" thrown at them (like newer sound systems and especially mandated mts) that you have a problem, and I have seen several mts-equipped Moguls that have had some serious issues with electronics when you do that.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

This is odd, but I have to agree with the Curmudgeon. 

The only part of LGB that doesn't get along with PWC is a newer sound system or a coreless motor. The sound system will read the peaks are run up to max, but otherwise not suffer for it. Coreless motors don't have enough inductance to reject the short pulses of PWC so that their current can get out of control when running at low speed. They also don't have the thermal mass to be able to tolerate pulses of heat. 

Conisdering the age of the loco, I would assume that the motor was worn out when you got it. You may have rejuvenated it enough to get it to work again. Does the commutator spark when running? 

Older motors with serious brush and commutator wear will pack the gaps in the commutator with conductive crud. This will cause the motor to draw high current spikes at times, possibly overheat the brushes (red hot) or cause them to spit a ring of fire around the commutator. Sometimes you can clean out the gaps with a SOFT TOOL such as a wooden toothpick to reduce the shorting around the commutator. When the motor is running, you can burnish the commutator with a toothpick to knock off some of the high spots and crud that is left.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave and George,

I have been thinking that the root perhaps was the gear. The damaged gear was putting a bit more load than normal and perhaps it put enough load that the motor didn't have enough torque to overcome. Or maybe it was frozen in that position and by using the 3amp power supply, I was able to force the issue. In any event, yes, the PWC has been determined not to be the problem. I should have known that because I have been running a 2020 and a 2017D on the PWC without problems.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 15 Dec 2010 09:24 AM 

The only part of LGB that doesn't get along with PWC is a newer sound system or a coreless motor. The sound system will read the peaks are run up to max, but otherwise not suffer for it. Coreless motors don't have enough inductance to reject the short pulses of PWC so that their current can get out of control when running at low speed. They also don't have the thermal mass to be able to tolerate pulses of heat. 


Where I found a problem with LGB and PWC are actually the older sound systems like the steam or diesel sound box cars, like the 4135S
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=835

The sound generated by these sound cars depends on the DC voltage on the track; with PWC, a capacitor at the front end of the sound unit charges to the PWC peak voltage so the sound generated is that of an engine running full tilt even if it's just crawling along. Doesn't damage anything as far as I know, but I now always run the TE in linear mode which gives me a more realistic sound that matches the speed of the loco.
Coreless motors is not issue with LGB since they don't use them.
But there are certain types of electronics in some LGB engines that have been destroyed by PWC. My guess is that electronics in the loco which are wired in parallel with the motor get damaged by the inductive spikes that PWC generates when driving the motor. There was a period when LGB didn't include protection against these inductive spikes since they expected people to run their equipment with DC power packs.


All not an issue with the LGB 2001 handcar which has no electronics in it.

knut


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