# I don't think that this is a stupid question



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, guess I could try to get an electronic answer however I like dialogue and the latest comments. 


I am having a great discussion with another individual re Split Jaw and the need for conductivity paste: 

For me.... my stuff is Brass, new and fresh.... I am thinking of making the joint using split jaw joiners and then smearing conductive grease over the joint to minimize water ingression into the joint. Then apply a fresh layer every spring. 

For my electronic partner, he has an existing track layout where he plans to upgrade to split jaw. In his case he plans to wire brush the joint prior to upgrade. He too has the question. Surface smear or grease the living daylights out of everything then hex the screws into place. 

I know there are real people out there with real and recent experience on this. 

Any advice?

gg


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

I just use a small amount (BB size) under the rails where they join. To much and it collects dirt. I use regular slip on joiners and splitjaw. Brass Aristo and LGB track. Haven't had any problems. Clean the track twice a year and of course sweep before any run. 
Steve


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

You want the contact grease on the point of contact. This will help prevent corrosion in the joint.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Brass or Stainless? 

Greg 

p.s. you don't need to carry the comments I made from the other thread... "Real people?"....


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Sorry Greg, my apologies.. missed that one. 

Yes Brass.... 

thx

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience has been that loading brass joiners/clamps with grease, any grease, is a good idea, because brass oxidizes and can corrode... 

On stainless, I put a little lube on the threads, but they seem to do better without the "mess". 

I tried putting some spray on lube on the SS ones, and they were just messier when changing them. 

On the wire brush, I would recommend a very fine one on a dremel, not a coarse one which can put dirt-catching grooves in the rails themselves, due to the softer brass. 

Regards, Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

In my designs I specify ordinary Petroleum Jelly -rather than Conductive Carbon grease. The primary reason is to exclude oxygen from the joint rather than to aid conductivity. I, amoungst others, have found that the conductive greases tend to alter their conductivity with time. The increasing resistance heats the coupling and further degrades the grease.... 

So, my advise is to stick to air exclusion and have a good mechanical connection. 

regards 

ralph


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I ran track power for 4 years before I switched to battery power. I don't remember ever having a connection problem with just clamps no conductive grease.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I ran for 18 years with LGB and Aristo joiners and conductive grease. Then I moved over to the darkside. (BATTERY)


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I bought a bottle of permatex "copper" anti-sieze compound and have been using that, but I'm pretty much flying blind--I don't have the knowledge or experience of others here. I had a bunch of joints with just LGB slip joints or Aristo screw joints and LGB pate, and they lasted well over a year with no conductvity poiblems. I would put a little bit of the LGB paste--in the joiner. 

With the copper stuf I've really been slathering it on there, with the assumption that if it keeps water and air out that's good.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

thanks guys, 

I think the message is : Keep oxidation from happening, 

nonconductive grease : layer the exterior

conductive grease: Layer inside the joint. 

I would be reluctant to put nonconductive grease inside the joint for that very reason yes? 

Petroleum Jelly or Vaseline sounds simple and good. 

thanks

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No such thing as (electrically) conductive grease (except very expensive stuff that is normally silver bearing). You would KNOW if you bought some of it, believe me. 

LGB sort of started this thing by calling it conductive... it's not electrically conductive.... it helps conductivity because it keeps moisture and corrosion and oxidation at bay. 

Search conductive, long thread on it. 

Any good grease will do, and I use wheel bearing grease, cheap, easily available, and high quality because it has to handle high temps. 

My only concern with petroleum jelly would be exposure to sun and the elements, it's not made for extreme temps... don't know if it would break down sooner. 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

GG. et al

Don't know if the following specific brand is available in Canada, but if not something similar should be. I've used it on my battery terminals and electrical connections and never had any failures (e.g. personal automotive, dune-buggies, swamp-buggies & halftracks etc.). Since being introduced to it as a young man working as an electrical utility lineman. Ha! didn't know it was there but look at the bottom of the page.









*NO-OX-ID A-Special*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I know this will probably create more discussion, but if you read carefully, this stuff is "conductive" like LGB grease is "conductive"... it's not actually electrically conductive (otherwise it would create shorts when "gooped on" the socket of a microprocessor... in the text) 

It keeps oxidation away. I use a very similar product called De-ox-it manufactured here in San Diego, which used to be called Cramoline for you stereo buffs. 

An excellent inhibitor of corrosion and can remove oxide layers.... I use the stuff all the time, expecially on connectors. 

The only real conductive greases I have found are gold or silver bearing, and they are WAY expensive. 

But the stuff you are talking about Steve is great stuff, has been around for a long time... I heard about it when they tried using aluminum wiring in houses... it worked great if you used this stuff... most people did not and they had problems. 

http://www.deoxit.com/ 

Regards, Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Here in the EU I have come across "true" electrically conductive greases. Or rather, fine particulate suspensions of conductors -such as carbon, copper and silver. The idea is that they widen the connection area of the joint while excluding oxygen. As the joint is "grunted up tight" the particles touch and conduct. All that happens in my experience is that the fine particles oxydise themselves... 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did some research on this, and certain ones, especially silver bearing, will actually melt the small particles together to make a conductive path. How much did you have to pay for what volume of grease Ralph? I found 2-4 grams of material for around $100 here. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

How would clear nail polish work? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg or I just do not understand. 

If you are thinking about using it to protect the outside of a completed joint... it's not a good idea because it's not formulated for UV resistance, and since it would dry hard, if it worked it's way down into the joint, you would have insulation. 

If I misunderstood, let me know. 

On this forum there was a heated debate that ANY oil or grease in a joint made it insulating... the actual areas of ACTUAL contact are pretty small, so you do not need 100% metal to metal everywhere. 

If you could not get by with a small patch of "clean" metal, then the tiny contact patch of the wheel to rail would never work at all, and obviously it does. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Greg good points. Not really for this thread however my Aristo #6's came in. Instructions say non conductive grease under the belly on all electricals and get this: 

Coat of clear nail polish on exposed contacts if using the Aristo electric switch ! 

Thus my question... 


gg












Also off topic however I am freaked... my frogs are metal !


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd use something more flexible, like clear silicon caulking from a tube, easier to be sure you got it all over, and you can see through it in case some corrosion occurs. 

Even though nail polish is acrylic paint, so to speak, and somewhat flexible, it could have gaps in coverage that would be hard to see. 

Also, with the #6, you really want to EMBED the wired in silicon, and getting the side of the wire that is next to the tie would be tough with nail polish. 

I think the clear polish on the exposed contacts is AFTER you screw wires to the terminals.... yep Aristo documentation can be a bit insane at some times. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

SOLD: 

UV stable grease on the split jaw and UV stabilized Silicone caulk on any other outdoor electricals. 

Thanks for the input. Proof that group therapy works. 


gg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 

The conductive grease used to be popular with designers in the early 90's. But retail for a 1 Kg "tub" of Wurmer Cu number 2, (a copper based grease) , is now around 2,000 Euros. As to the sintering of the granules I will pass -no design of mine should ever get that hot enough to do that!!! I simply specify that the connections from the Frankfurt designed Power Cabinet be connected to my CPU and RAM cabinets with 15mm thick cables tied down with 10mm bolts at a torque of 45Nm (and plastered with plenty of Petroleum Jelly).

regards

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I remember that "era" in design, and how it did not work as intended, and got in places where it caused problems. 

The"sintering" is actually that very small paths would conduct lots of current so, sort of localized "microheating" to melt the particles together, happens first time current is applied. I read this description more than one time, and those products were heavily "doped" wiith silver particles. That stuff maies your Wurmer Cu look like a bargin! 

Yep, basic rule seems to keep the air and dirt out... let the metal conduct the electricty. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yo Greg.... re waterproofing the belly of the #6 Aristo switch. 

What do I do about that fancy micro switch.? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the problem Gavin. 

The microswitch is not waterproof and often corrodes and jams in the "depressed" condition.










I would silicon the wires up to the switch, but the problem is water in the microswitch itself. It's almost impossible to pack anything inside to keep water out, and you cannot use silicon on the outside because it will interfere with the motion of the microswitch.

Lewis has made "waterproof" microswitches available on the Aristo site 2 for 5 bucks. No telling if they are really waterproof (there's some problems to accomplish this).


I would try them, cheap...

here's a switch with all the problem areas outlined:










Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Great info and forewarned is fore-armed. 

Off to Canadian tire for remedies. 

I will also order up some spare microswitches aka water proof versions. 


Will also set up the switch in such a way that there is no water pooling under it. 

Thanks for the feedback


gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hope it helps, read my page on Aristo track, and the #6 specifically. 

 http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/track-mainmenu-93/aristo-track

After you read that page, notice the menu on the left to see specific pages on specific Aristo track products.

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Here again Gregs version of the problem is not fully explained. He use to leave his power on at all times and had sprinklers that ran often which caused his big problem with the micoro switches. Mine have been in place for over 4 years and I totally enclosed the system with silicone and have not had a failure yet. They work fine so I guess I did something right. Later RJD


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 03/22/2009 6:26 PM
Here again Gregs version of the problem is not fully explained. He use to leave his power on at all times and had sprinklers that ran often which caused his big problem with the micoro switches. Mine have been in place for over 4 years and I totally enclosed the system with silicone and have not had a failure yet. They work fine so I guess I did something right. Later RJD


Glad I caught your reply here. 

yes abuse can do damage. What gets me here is the need to fiddle out of the box on product that should be designed for the service to start off with. And yes... we all pay serious bucks for this stuff. 


I am somewhat disappointed... not pissed... however read between the lines here !

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

RJ siliconed all the wiring right out of the box, I did not. That helps the wiring, but I think that the microswitches have gone bad in many instances. 

RJ, have you checked your frogs to see they are really getting power? With long wheelbase locos, you often do not notice... 

My switches started to go bad after 4 years too... not before... 

Regards, Greg


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By John J on 03/21/2009 2:13 AM


I ran track power for 4 years before I switched to battery power. I don't remember ever having a connection problem with just clamps no conductive grease. 


Ditto. In fact we still have track power to run the LGB stuff by way of the MTS and not issue one.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I love the comments: 

Dedicated buffs: DC, DCC, DCS and yes the Battery guys ... 

On earlier postings I made a comment re DCS Vs DCC and yes, I know that there is room for both. 


I hold true to this... 

And yes thanks to you battery guys I think there is room as well . My point is simple. As I grow the GR&G railroad, as I bring on new scales to meet the needs, there will be a need for the options that meets the needs of my multi-tech approach to a railway. 


Funny thing is that we, as a group, are splintered when it comes to technology of choice, we should be rejoicing in in our individual choices of same. This is not an issue of one-up-man-ship here. 


Yes.. tinker with what tickles our fancy. May the rest of us learn from it. 


Be it battery, DC, DCC or DCS... 

All winners, however as you can see, I like to kindle conversation and stimulate thoughts that new people including myself can reflect on. 


Many times I ask myself stupid questions. Trust me. I am good here and yes I am not ashamed of my approach to this hobby. 


Nice to do it in public and get some sane answers.









gg


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