# SD45 stil not running



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, here I go again, looking for clues what the heck is wrong with my A/C SD45. That thing’s been sitting out on the layout for three years and it hasn’t been around the road half a dozen times. So, here I go again, looking for suggestions as to what might be wrong.

This time, since there’s a dusting of snow on the ground, everything’s inside, so I didn’t have to get down on my knees to see what’s what; down in the basement I can study it better. Today I put it up on the rollers, connected to the same NCE equipment that powers the layout during the summer.

At first look, the problem is simply that the back block must be pushing the front block: it’s not turning at all! On further study, the front block will get going, but not until the NCE is set to 10 or higher (max. 28). As I increase the cab setting, both blocks are running, but the front seems to be going about half the speed of the rear block at any given point.

There’s the problem: until the 10 setting, the rear is pushing while the three front axles are “locked up”, then it’s doing twice the work basically sliding the front truck along. I stuffed a hunk of wood under the loco so that the front truck was dangling in mid air with the rear truck on rollers, and marked the middle wheel of each truck so I could get a visual comparison of each truck’s speed. It seemed something like 2 to 1, rear speed compared to front speed from setting 10 to 28. Even with no weight on the front truck, it still didn’t run much below the 10 setting. The front could be coaxed to turn a bit when I tried to spin a wheel. But it still was slower than the rear truck.

I pulled the front truck from the SD45 and ran it on the rollers with my bench supply. The truck ran seemingly correctly as low as 2vDC up to 15vDC, speed increasing with each higher step. But it still seemed a bit lethargic; I’m sure it’s slower than the rear truck would be on DC.

I didn’t lube anything today; I really don’t think that’s the problem. Nor did I open up the gearboxes. There are no unseemly noises or “rough running”. I’m wondering if one of the can motors (or motor cans) could be sluggish. Not sure how to test for a bad can.

It’s as if the DCC was programmed to tell the front truck to run slower than the rear. Far as I know, there’s no such CV. Is there?

Suggestions certainly would be appreciated.

JackM


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack

Can you check the current draw on each motor block? If there is a significant difference, that would indicate a problem with the motor.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jack, there is only a single set of motor outputs from the decoder, so both motors are getting the same input, so it's a mechanical or electrical issue in the motor blocks.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I've had the motors on my USA NW-2 burn open one set of windings on one motor.

If you got the motor going or got lucky that the armature ended up on the good set of winding, you were good to go, except that the engine never would run quite right.

If you ended up on the bad set, that motor wouldn't start. I ended up replacing the motor.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thinking mechanical... make sure the gears are not too tight together, that could cause a bind that only extra juice moves...
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The gear lash is non-adjustable in Aristo SD45 blocks, and actually is probably never a problem, due to the extreme side to side movement of the axles (per design).

You can get binding between the motor and the gearboxes, by a misaligment of the motor in the block, takes a soldering iron to fix/adjust.

here's some tips on the motor blocks:
http://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=215&Itemid=248

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for all your suggestions, guys. Here what I did this morning:

Taking the motor block apart, I used an Allen wrench to turn the entire gear/motor system by hand. Everything felt nice and smooth.

I pulled the five pieces apart. The gearboxes again all felt smooth to turn.

For the heck of it, I pulled the wheels off so I could open up the boxes, and again everything looked and felt good, properly lubed, etc.

Not seeing any other possibility, I tested the motors by applying DC to the terminals of each motor. At 5vDC, both motors were so quiet and smooth that I could hardly feel it running in my hand. Pinching the output shaft gave hardly a vibration. At 2vDC the first motor gave the same results. The second motor didn't turn until I just tapped it. So I switched back and forth between the two motors, still at 2vDC. Both motors started without hesitation and ran fine. Both motors pulled about .12 amps.

Does the second motor's bit of hesitation only the first time at 2 volts mean it is defective? Or I should say: is that one bit of hesitation at 2 v. the cause of the blocks ongoing problem? It doesn't seem that a bit of sluggishness in getting going would bring about such a case of lagging operation.

I can't find anything else at fault. I've watched that the motor's terminals make proper contact with the chrome "forks", so I do think they're getting power.

I'd ask if I should replace the motor that exhibited that bit of hesitation (only once), but since I left the workbench, I don't know which one that was. The tags on the cans are identical, also.

???

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

you don't state this, but did you remove the motors from the blocks or tested them in place?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

..... F.... & R.. make great ways of remembering who's on first!!
..don't be bashful to label stuff...


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

> did you remove the motors from the blocks or tested them in place?


 I think I've tested everything in every manner possible. I should've mentioned in the most recent post everything was disassembled; motors checked today with my bench power supply.

JackM


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Has a simple resistance test been performed at any juncture? I'd check each motor block assembled, through power collection/distribution and at motors. You should realize like numbers of either motor block.

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

At this point I'm thinking dirty commutator, dead motor segment, bad connections to motor, pickup issues.

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Okay, we're out of my league here.

How do I access a commutator? Isn't that inside the motor can? Should I open up the can?

Would all three axles turn (they do) if the motor was dead? Motors have been tested - as an individual unit - by touching those two little "ears" with probes from benchtop power supply. (See previous)

The block runs slow, but it runs, when it's fully assembled. I touch the silver contacts on top with probes from my benchtop power supply. Wheels turn easily and smoothly when an Allen wrench is inserted into end of group and rotated manually.

When SD45 is completely assembled and sitting on rollers, all six axles turn (indicating connection to motors?). The front block just lags behind what the rear block is doing.

Nothing seems to make sense.

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Before we go off at 100 mph, you never answered this question:



Greg Elmassian said:


> you don't state this, but did you remove the motors from the blocks or tested them in place?


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a quite note on motors... Probably poles are carbon up and will make the motor run slower. Michael Glavin gave me some old motor AC. blocks and two of them did the same thing. Kind like the old Ho Athren motors.. Have to clean out the poles and then they run fine. (poles are shorting out and normal you won't find or see it on a current meter.)
Sometime moister and gunk due to outside running can mess up the brushes and stuff will end up between the poles. 
Just a note.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Greg - As in #13, motors have been tested as individual units. The blocks were removed from the SD45 and tested to see that the wheels did turn when DC voltage was applied to the various chrome points at the top of the blocks, as discussed on your website. (Between my adventures with an A/C GP40 a few years ago and this SD45, I have those pages memorized.)


Not sure this if what Michael means by a resistance check in this case: With all the pieces disassembled, I measured the resistance between the cans' contacts ("ears"). One showed about 10 ohms, the other about 50 ohms.

Noel - how does one "clean out the poles"? I would think that spraying contact cleaned into the motor would just shorts it out.

Thanks for all your efforts.

JackM


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Maybe this helps, maybe not.

As I noted I have an NW-2 where the motor has burned out the leads to some of the windings. I closely examined the motor while slowing turning it by hand.

There are 10 "detents" as you turn the shaft. Looking through the air hole, I can clearly see that there are five sets of windings with 10 wires that should attach to the commutator (one for each detent). As I spin it I can see that six of the detents have their two wires intact, but four have no visible wires here, so they obviously fried.

By my math, if five winding each have 50 ohms resistance, in parallel we would expect 10 ohms, unless four sets were burnt open or otherwise not making contact.

But does the motor "see" five sets of windings at once (for 10 ohms) or one set at a time (for 10 ohms) and the other 40 ohms are untold resistance?

If you put an ohmmeter across the motor leads and slowly spin it by hand, do you get sections that show infinite resistance? My bad motor does.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

toddalin said:


> Maybe this helps, maybe not.
> 
> As I noted I have an NW-2 where the motor has burned out the leads to some of the windings. I closely examined the motor while slowing turning it by hand.
> 
> ...


Like he said. ck first for a burn or wile broken. 
I use a small brass wire bush that came with my Dermal took kit to clean out the poles. All I do is use it by hand between each pole. Don't hit any of the pole winding wire if you can help it. Most likely it full of carbon off the brushes.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

ONE MORE TIME... DID YOU PHYSICALLY REMOVE THE MOTORS FROM THE BLOCKS (plastic housings)?

It's hard to isolate the problem if the motors are still engaged with the gearboxes.

Noel should be using the term "commutator segments", and the surfaces might need to be cleaned, or burnished, or smoothed, or the gaps between the segments might need cleaning.

Again, before you take off at 100 mph here, you cannot get there without removing the motors. 

Also, you can not have tested the motors individually if they are BOTH still in the motor block.

Let's get to a point where we know what you are doing. There a TON of different things this can be.

Did you read my web page? There a lot of information there. You could have grooved axles, all kinds of stuff.

Oh measuring the resistance of a motor when stopped is not going to tell you anything unless you can actually be sure you are not bridging commutator segments during the measurements, and then all the other issues above can come into play.

Greg



JackM said:


> Greg - As in #13, motors have been tested as individual units. The blocks were removed from the SD45 and tested to see that the wheels did turn when DC voltage was applied to the various chrome points at the top of the blocks, as discussed on your website. (Between my adventures with an A/C GP40 a few years ago and this SD45, I have those pages memorized.)
> 
> 
> Not sure this if what Michael means by a resistance check in this case: With all the pieces disassembled, I measured the resistance between the cans' contacts ("ears"). One showed about 10 ohms, the other about 50 ohms.
> ...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that is what I ask in #1.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm getting a little miffed, we need to start at the beginning. This poor guy is simultaneously getting too far ahead of himself and confused and not getting the basic stuff.

I suspect my issue is semantics... and I also want to find out if this is of the vintage where the motors are soldered in place.

Clearly with 2 motors mechanically connected to each other, if one motor is bad, it will be hard to isolate.

As I have always said, Aristo stuff has a clever design, often poorly assembled, and a pain in the ass to work on sometimes.

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I have a several Aristo 3 axle motor blocks on my bench, one disassembled. I ran the motors a few minutes ago loose in my hand.

5V current draw is .15A no load, both motors.
20V current draw is .20A no load, both motors.

Motor resistance was around 12m ohm of cleaned motors. Remember the brushes are seated on the commutator with spring pressure, physical contact area can vary due to carbon build-up, arcing, rough commutator and such. I used a cordless drill with the motors chucked up, DVM leads attached, turned the motor quickly to slowly and then stopping to read the resistance. This provided consistent results ensuring the brushes and commutator were making good contact. 

I clean the motors with electric contact cleaners or similar products for same available at hobby shops.

I also use a product from Bachman's E-Z Lube line conductive contact lube #99981, a drop on the brushes/commutator helps reduce arcing and break-in of the brushes. 

It’s plausible the problem is a function of power being transferred from the rail to the motors. Greg has documented on his site issues with multiple drivers not routing power through the driver/gear box/motor block interface (Aristo Prime Mover Basics), the sum of all the drivers ultimately feeds the loco’s circuit board and or decoder distributing power to both motor blocks. High resistance herein may provide a voltage reading but is unable to provide copious volumes of current, open circuit measurements provide zero voltage/current.

If it were me I’d measure the resistance through each driver and the appropriate strip/land on top of the motor block. Might be revealing to measure resistance with motor running as well…

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting Michael, were your motors ever soldered in place? If not, that indicates they were pretty early in manufacture.

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg,

Yes, motors were soldered in place and these drives have seen many hours of operation. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yeah, the best way in my mind is pull it all apart, but that does involve complete disassembly and unsoldering the motors, which can be tricky for many people.

so, it's not what I always recommend for people who aren't good at soldering.

I use the same stuff as you do on my commutators.

Greg


Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Guys - With all due respect, I get the feeling everyone is just reading my post like a recent Evelyn Woods Speed Reading graduate then answering without thinking again what I, the person with the problem, had written.

Here's what I wrote in posting #7:




> Taking the motor block apart, I used an Allen wrench to turn the entire gear/motor system by hand. Everything felt nice and smooth.
> 
> I pulled the five pieces apart. The gearboxes again all felt smooth to turn.
> 
> For the heck of it, I pulled the wheels off so I could open up the boxes, and again everything looked and felt good, properly lubed, etc.


 
Sometimes I know I have a funny way of saying things, but "I pulled the five pieces apart" means gears, motor, gears, motor, gears. They are now separate. Similarly, I say that I pulled the wheels off so I could open up the gearboxes and look at the gears and they all looked good.

Yes, Greg, I have read the appropriate pages in your website. As I said, I have those pages memorized. I am grateful that you make all that information available to us at no cost (to us). I have two websites of my own (unrelated subjects). I know they are work and they are expensive.




> Both motors pulled about .12 amps.


 Perhaps I should've said each instead of both, for clarity.

To the subject at hand - why one of the SD45's blocks runs slower than the other - I think I have eliminated everything except the teeny motor cans that turn the gears. Peering into the windings thru those two little holes doesn't shed much light on the subject. (Note the double entendre.) Is anyone suggesting that I should open up the can to gain access to the actual motor, or should I just spray contact cleaner into the hole while rotating the shaft? Should I just bend back the four little legs and the can will freely pull off? I could report back what I found, especially if there is a notable difference between the two motors. I’m a bit uncomfortable with the idea of pulling that can apart.

Thanks guys, I really do appreciate your help.

JackM


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jack,


While you share some data and description of your efforts, your haven't elaborated on specific suggestions such as measured resistance at various locations, whether or not you verified each gearbox is transferring power from wheels all the way up to the strips or langs on the gearbox top.

I work on electro-mechanical equipment daily, there has been many occasions when I felt like pulling what little hair I have left troubleshooting anomalies, some intermittent while others stood fast. On many occasions over the years I have found wires that appeared to be in good physical condition and check out with voltage readings yet were damaged under the insulation (over tightened wire ties, pinched between clamps and hard objects, wire(s) that were able to move around and or oscillate with equipment in various stages of operation) and or had poor solder or crimp connections. Just saying I’d take a hard look all wires, shake em, manhandle them, and bend them and such. Verify the contact points that interconnect all are making physical contact and check them out with a resistance reading.

To further eliminate the unknown use your DVM to measure current point to point, between the circuit board/decoder, drivers and motors.

While you can take apart the motors I wouldn’t recommend it. These motors are very reliable and generally work or not. A cursory check of their resistance as I alluded to above would eliminate another variable. You have already verified their respective current draw and your numbers are similar to my findings, I’d look elsewhere.

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Plastic safe contact cleaner would not be a bad idea on the motors. Do it while you have power applied to them.

Can you see inside the motor slots enough to see the gaps between the commutator segments? There might be carbon buildup.

Did you have to unsolder the motors to remove them from the blocks or did they just pop out with the gear train.

Are the hex shafts on the motors all metal or is there nylon on the ends of them.

Regards, Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Greg - Thanks for understanding. I'll check the contact cleaner I have in the garage and if it's plastic-safe I'll give it a shot. Looking in the motor slots, the gaps seem clean and clear. The SD45 hasn't run more than a few hundred feet in two years (without the big hand in the sky doing most of the work) so I wouldn't expect to see carbon. Looks pretty normal in there. Hex shafts are nylon. Motors not soldered, they just pop out.

I'll get to Michael's suggestions tomorrow - it's supper time and that food isn't going to eat itself.

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, just to let you know if the motors are not soldered in place this is an OLD locomotive, all recent ones (last 6 years or 9 years) were soldered in place.

So, where the tabs of the motors engage the metal "forks" to supply power is typically a problem area, the joint is too loose, and power flow is not good. The solution was to solder them in place, which also makes them a pain to remove.

Also, if they are soldered in place not in good alignment then you have an additional problem of possible binding and noise.

A further indication that you have an old style loco is the hex shafts, if they have the nylon on the ends they are old. The nylon was there to keep the noise down, but unfortunately they wore out quickly and were changed to all metal.

I'd also check the side to side play on all axles, and look for wear on the axles.

also check the power pickup of each gearbox assembly, from the axle to the metal tabs screwed on the outside on each side of the gearbox. (this is the issue with the contact between the little finger that is supposed to touch the spring that holds the ball bearing that rides on the axle) The finger is the small tab pointing down at the top of the part shown below










It might be that the motors are ok, but power pickup is intermittent on one block causing it to drag (because it is unpowered part of the time).

Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*SD 45 bad motor connection fix*

I have a late Aristo production run Montana Rail Link SD 45 with the newest type wheels and motor block with "U" slots and soldered in motor "fork" connections. 
Its rear motor block had an open circuit on one electric motor lead due to a cold solder joint at one of the forks that supplies power to it. This caused only one of the two motors in the rear block to operate - resulting in delayed response, slow operation and weak performance. To fix it, I temporarily removed the center wheel to gain access to the "U" slot and resoldered the fork connection.










For more info., including how I located the problem connection, see *Appendix A - Aristo 2012 Production Run "New Version* SD-45 in a vignette hosted for me by Greg E. on his Web site.

-Ted


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

First, to Michael - I have to admit that my way of doing things is very different from your professional experience. I guess that's why I'm called an "amateur". The last thing I want to do is "manhandle" tiny wires. When I open up any loco, and add my own wires to that rats nest, I tread very lightly. But, point well taken; it's all too easy for a wire to look good while harboring an intermittent inside.

Also, as you suggest, it wouldn't hurt if I paid more attention to current between various points.

So, thank you for your suggestions.

To Greg - I have printed out your last post and will take it down to the bench so that I can check off each of your suggestions as I go. Truth be told, I never connected my SD45 with mention of "older" unit. I just bought it 3-4 years ago from a major dealer at ECLSTS. I didn't realize undecs stayed on the shelf that long.

Likewise, to Ted D., your photos are worth the vaunted "thousand words". Again, having presumed mine was a "newer model", I will go back to your vignette a re-read it with a different attitude.

I will now proceed to fix the problem, I'm sure.

JackM


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Putting "U" slots in old Aristo SD motor blocks*

Jack,

Since you have old production run motor blocks without the "U" slots on the sides near the center wheels, it may be possible to cut out like kind slots (or drill holes) in the old housings. This would afford access the the forks. To do so, it's best to remove the motors with gear boxes. Since the old types did not have soldered forks, it's easy to do.
Of course, when reassembling everything, don't solder the forks until you are sure the the motors, gears and other items are OK.

-Ted


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jack, I suspect the problem was/is the unsoldered interface of the motors to said forks......

What can be done about the problematic plastic hex drive of the early motor blocks? I may have some and have yet to realize same. Eventually I'll get to disassembling several more motor blocks. Thus far I have only worked on what I assume are second generation drives.

I'm contemplating removing all the doodads from the drives and simply wiring directly to the motors. Accordingly the SD45T-2's were building will be fitted with the stripped motor blocks for Li-Po power and I maybe retrofitting A/C drives into the USAT SD40T-2's projects as they have the appropriate side-frames and wheel diameters for same and I have three orphan sets that need a home..

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the "forks" were a clever idea, they allowed easy disassembly without soldering the motor connections and they allowed the motor to "self align".

But the experience is that the motor twists in reaction to the torque it is applying, and this movement loosens the connection physically. This causes poor and intermittent electrical contact.

Aristo's solution was to solder the "forks" to the motors. This eliminated the motion and intermittent contact, but now locked the alignment of the motor, so not getting the motor in the exact right place could result in binding in the gear train. 

This was often the case right from the factory, and realigning/resoldering the motors was the fix.

In a related situation, the nylon ends on the hex drive of the motor would keep things quiet, but any misalignment would chew the nylon up, and you could get slipping in the drive. The solution was an all-metal hex drive, but now you have more noise.

This could have all been eliminated by adding a "finger" to the motor shell, and a slot in the motor block, so that would handle the torque of the motor rotating. Then there would have been minimal motion and the spring "forks" would most likely have lasted.

It does not help that where a springy contact is needed, often Aristo used chrome plated steel.

As I have always said, clever designs poorly executed and often topped by poor assembly. 

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*Weekend Update*

I spent a few hours this morning and didn't feel that I accomplished anything at all. Came back later this afternoon and feel like I've come to a conclusion, of sorts.

Greg mentioned in one of his posts that mine is an older unit - six, maybe nine years old. We had already established that the blocks have the hex shafts that are nylon, not metal, etc.

I had already established that wear was not the issue since, in the three years I've had it, it's never been able to run around my layout without a push from a human. It's been pretty much useless. The darn thing's practically new, as far as operation goes.

The "forks" have been mating with the motors just fine. The block can run on only two wheels (running on rollers, I can pick up either end and all six wheels keep on running). The motors and gearboxes turn quietly and smoothly when turned by hand. I haven't been able to find any bad connection anywhere, intermittent or otherwise. 

I'm long since past the point of frustration, so I decided to pull the other block off the SD45 carcass that I put aside a week ago, and set it up on its own rollers to compare the two blocks side by side. And again, the one we know as the "front" block runs sluggish compared to the "rear" one. Then the LED over my head lit up. The entire block is just plain dry! It's nine years old, that lithium grease has turned to a thick white paste. 

So I got out my gear lube and applied a modest amount at the hex shafts, motors, axles, etc., put it up on the rollers and let it run for a few minutes. Now it seems to be running about as fast as the rear block at the same settings on my bench power supply. They're both pulling about .80 amps according to my five dollar Gen-Tech VOM. I am nervously optimistic that dried-up grease was the problem. Too bad I didn't think of this when I had the gearboxes open last week. I guess I'll have to take everything apart now and lube them up, too.

I guess the lesson here is that gears can turn quiet and smooth, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything's okay.

I suppose then that I should grab the rear block and pull it all apart and lube that one, too. Ohboy, more little screws!

What do you guys think? Am I dreaming or can it just be sticky old grease?

Next question: is there any product I should use to clean out the lithium paste on the gears, or should I just slather the new lube on top?

JackM


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jack,

I’m sorry to suggest it, but IMO you are dreaming……

When lithium grease becomes dry or paste, its carrier oils/binders have evaporated and or separated generally leaving behind lithium soap, so replacing same is a good idea IMO.

Now, back to your bad dream, how do you know the fork and motor tab interface is NOT your problem?

Not having any experience herein is it possible the plastic HEX drives are slipping on the motor shafts?

Can you put the drives to work on the rollers and exerting substantial downward pressure and observing voltage and current numbers?

Michael


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Michael -

re: fork & tab - I can see that the tab is slid firmly between the tines of the fork. Wiggling the motor does not pull the tab from within the fork. Also, at no time can I do anything to cause any disconnection of any part of the electrical "chain". All six wheels run no matter what. It's pretty solid.

Similarly, squeezing any pair of wheels as hard as my little fingers can squeeze will not stop the wheels from spinning. 

I have no idea whether the nylon hex drive can slip. No one has suggested that possibility. Lubing them has made things better, not worse.

At this point, I don't see anything left to do until spring comes and I can put the SD45 on the outdoor track and see if it runs like a proper SD45. My dreams are looking better.

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's pretty hard to believe the hex shaft interface needs lube, there is very little movement then UNLESS you have a bind caused by misalignment. If you did though, there would be noise, and you say they run silent, so that does not make sense.

Lubing the axles is pretty hard to believe making a difference, because all you can do is put lube on the axle shaft, not into the ball bearing. Lubing the axle shafts allows them to slide sideways easily on curves, but does nothing in a straight line. Again this does not fit the symptoms.

Now the other thing that makes no sense at all is opening the motor blocks and seeing it is dry. It is SUPPOSED to be dry, the gearboxes are sealed units with the lube inside. I do not see any place you say you open the gearboxes, which take a lot of disassembly. So this cannot be the situation.

Nothing is making sense here.

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't think I ever said they run silent. I would describe the unit as not noisy, no clanking in the gearbox, etc. That description is from the blocks running individually on rollers, or the entire unit running on rollers. Sound card running at a reasonable level (for outdoors). It does have rhythmic sounds to the wheels, etc. My RDCs run silent, the SD45 isn't "overly noisy".

Basically, my predilection would be to lube every darn thing in sight.

Yes, I have visited the deep depths of the gearboxes. Pull the wheel, remove four very tiny screws and you're in! Remember, I've lived with this uncooperative loco for three years - after spending three months doing the paint job, decals, etc. (I may not be good, but I'm slow.) 



> Nothing is making sense here.


 At this point, I'm happy to accept rotational noises, whatever. I'm happy both blocks seem to be running at about the same speed. That's a big improvement over what I had a week ago.

But now a new problem.

I'm sure the answer is sitting right there in front of me, but I spent a few hours today assembling and disassembling over and over, so I will embarrass myself further by asking this one: no matter what I do - and I've tried everything I can imagine - the front block and the rear block are running in opposite directions. What is the part that I need to reverse to get both blocks to go in the same direction? I've got something bass ackwards and I can't find it. Running on NCE DCC power, they're running in opposite directions. How'd I do that????

JackM


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Michael

Rotate the motors 180* in one drive, makes em go the other way.

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jack,

FWIW: Aristo realized the un-soldered motor tabs was a problem or they would have not started soldering them subsequently I believe. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

noted in my post #35. Real history, not conjecture Jack. When I state things as fact you normally can go to the bank on them.

So Jack, just to be sure, when you said you opened the BLOCKS and they were dry, you really meant you opened the GEARBOXES and they were dry, right?

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

> Rotate the motors 180*


 Duh - Ya know why I didn't think of that? I don't want to tell you how my addled brain started thinking the motors ran on AC (18vAC on the track, wheels bring it into the block, forks connected to the motor, motor needs lubrication, lube job reverses polarity, polarity doesn't matter with AC, expecting a few inches of snow tonight, need to buy gas for the plow and on and on).

Thanks for reestablishing my sanity, Michael.

Greg - I opened the gearboxes, gearboxes are in the block, yada yada, see first paragraph.

I did the work this morning and I look forward to getting a powerful SD45 on the track come April. I will enjoy it even more when I figure out why the QSI soundcard gives me three toots for forward, and two for backing up. A little past noon. Today's lunchtime reading will be the QSI manual.

JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Certainly made lunch even better! I noted in my QSI manual that I swapped the headlight and rearlight wires when I installed the board many years ago (no idea why, but it's nice that I was taking good notes that day). The SD 45 is going to roll right onto the basement shelf and prepare itself for a lot of use this summer.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

JackM

Love the sound of them Leslies!


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

JackM said:


> . I will enjoy it even more when I figure out why the QSI soundcard gives me three toots for forward, and two for backing up. A little past noon. Today's lunchtime reading will be the QSI manual.
> 
> JackM


Jack-

Do you have a QSI Quantum Programmer and the CV Manager program? If you do, changing the horn toots will be easy. It's under the ready to roll section (or something similar to that), just unselect the boxes that correlate with the horn toots for moving forward and backwards.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

JackM said:


> Love the sound of them Leslies!



Just wouldn't be a B3 without one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jack, I'm sure it is very clear that we are all here to help you.

Your retort: "Greg - I opened the gearboxes, gearboxes are in the block, yada yada, see first paragraph."

Maybe you need to understand that while you think you are communicating clearly, you are not always communicating in print.

What first paragraph?

Post #1: nothing in the first paragraph, and you state you did NOT open the gearboxes.

Post #7: nothing in the first paragraph, and you state you turned the gearboxes with an allen wrench, and do NOT state you opened them. You state you tested the motors individually, but do NOT state if they were removed from the motor block.

Post #8: I ask you to tell me if you removed the motors or not

Post #13, nothing in first paragraph, nothing about gearboxes and you do not answer the question posed in post #8

Post #14: I ask post #8 again... did you remove motors

Post #16: you reiterate that you tested motors as individual units but STILL do not say you removed the motors from the blocks. Note your individual test referenced before was applying power or resistance checks, both of which could be done IN the block.

Post#19, I ask for the THIRD time if you explicitly removed the motors. Remember that most motors are soldered in and are VERY hard to remove.

Post #20: Chuck mentioned he asked this too.

Post #26: you state that people are not reading your posts right and you finally state that you removed all components individually from the motor blocks.

So, if you put emotion aside, do you see that while I'm sure you believe you communicated clearly, it took a number of posts to get you to just answer one, explicit, simple question?

That's why I was getting exasperated with your answers or lack of answers, and frankly I'm a bit insulted at your retort: "Greg - I opened the gearboxes, gearboxes are in the block, yada yada, see first paragraph."

If you look at my post count, I think you can infer that I'm no stranger to this forum nor helping other people.

So, this is a suggestion as constructive criticism, if a person keeps asking you the same question, either you never answered, or he did not understand your answer.

Remember here, if you are upset at reading this, the amount of effort I and the rest of the people on this thread have expended helping you. We are trying.

Regards, Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Todd - Yes, I do love when they crank up that leslie, too.

JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Eric - Nope, don't have the programmer. 

JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Greg – No use in me trying to parse all of your comments individually. I suspect you are correct in the points you raise. Perhaps my writing style covers things in a broader sense than would be helpful to more technically-oriented persons such as you. I don’t always handle the details well. 

I can only apologize when my comments are taken to mean other than what I mean. The “yada yada” line was intended to show my way of thinking….that I thought answered the question. “Yada yada”, as made popular on the Jerry Seinfeld Show decades ago, is used as a way to skip over the middle part because there might be some mental sleight of hand, or sloppy thinking, involved.

Truth is, I thought my answer in #10 did answer your #8. (You are correct, of course, that I didn’t mention it in my initial post.) 

Quote:
did you remove the motors from the blocks or tested them in place? 

I think I've tested everything in every manner possible. I should've mentioned in the most recent post everything was disassembled; motors checked today with my bench power supply.


“Everything was disassembled” was intended to mean that I pulled all five pieces of the “transmission chain” out of the vehicle and separated (and tested) them.

Part of the problem is that there was a bit of an “apples to oranges” problem through the first 30 or so postings. You were expecting a “new” version of the blocks while I have an “old” unit when I didn’t even realize that such a difference existed. Way back at #10, you would not have expected me to unsolder the forks, etc. I can understand your pique.

Please understand that I’ve been fighting this $350 waste of money for three years. My level of frustration has been pretty high this week. Undoubtedly, I might have re-thought my answers a bit. No insult was intended to you or anyone else. 

Regards,
JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the even tempered response and understanding. We are indeed trying to help.

So, after all this how is it running now?

By the way, the pickup at each axle can sometimes vary between testing with the loco off the track and when on the track. That little finger that must touch the spring is touchy. I suspect it was intended to work differently than the way it has been assembled.

Have you also considered carving out slots on the sides to allow soldering the forks?

Regards, Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I suppose I won't know definitively until April just how well it's running but, for now, it's running very well on the rollers. 17 degrees and a little bit of snow right now, so I'm _definitively_ not going out there for a while. I don't see any real need to go on to soldering the forks. I haven't noticed any intermittent connections, so I'm going to bolt the body back onto the frame this afternoon and put it aside til the weather changes.

Got plenty of other G scale things to fix, buildings to build, etc.

JackM


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Jack... You'll have to change your opening title to a running sd45 now!! LOL

Enjoy your other winter projects..

Dirk


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jack, you might be able to tighten the forks a bit if they loosen.

When they are soldered in, they are a pain to remove, and many people get the motor misaligned when soldering.

Glad to hear it's good on rollers!

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Fork Issue to Consider!*



JackM said:


> SNIP
> I don't see any real need to go on to soldering the forks. I haven't noticed any intermittent connections, so I'm going to bolt the body back onto the frame this afternoon and put it aside til the weather changes.
> SNIP
> JackM


Jack,

I noticed with my early production run SD 45s not having the soldered forks, that if you change operational direction of the loco with your controller (e.g. reverse - forward & visa versa with Train Engineer) there is a pronounced delay (not having to do with any controller inertia setting). 
I think this tends to progressively widen the fork slots as the motor rocks back and forth making the electrical contact worse every time you change direction. The Aristo fork metallurgy may not be the greatest for maintaining proper tension. 

Just something to consider;
-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Early on, many people noticed this problem with their locos, and commented on it on the Aristo forum.

One moderator indicated he never had this problem.

After may inquiries/questions and actually digging, this person indicated that as soon as he got a new Aristo loco (with the prime mover gearbox), he immediately soldered the "forks".

As you know, Aristo made that change pretty early on.

So, if it's not happening now, it will.

You can clearly wait until it happens, but that is the "fix". 

Be sure to seat the motor all the way into the block and hold it in place while soldering and do not release pressure until the solder cools and hardens.

Regards, Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Ted, Greg -

Actually, I noticed that the forks have a very small gap with the motors removed, so they have a good grasp on the motor tabs now. Since I'll be doing the yard moves with my trusty S4, the SD45 won't be doing massive amounts of direction changes, so hopefully it will behave for a good long time.

From the beginning, I thought the forks would be better off (longer lived) if they had a bit of a twist to them, so that the motor tab would bend them "forward & backward" rather than spreading them sideways. Not that I'm going to revisit that issue right now, but what would you guys think of that? The present sideways move looks like it's asking for the tines to crack at their bases. Would a little twist give them a less dangerous direction?

JackM


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Jack,

I have reservations about twisting the forks. 
The way the a motor tab fits at a right angle to the fork has a limited contact area (and BTW is, also, somewhat awkward if soldering when attempting to apply heat to everything). Twisting the fork could lessen the contact area, and I don't know if the fork metallurgy would respond well or if a twisted fork with motor tab would still fit OK in the limited space available.

Try it with this in mind.

-Ted


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have an Aristo diesel, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to solder the forks to the motor, would it be possible to solder a piece of wire to the motor and the fork? This would give you a good connection, but not have to directly solder the fork to the motor.

If there is room could you cut the wire connecting the fork and motor and add a plug and receptacle. This would make removing the motor relatively easy, in the future.

Chuck


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Ted - I didn't mean twisting the fork so much as just bending one to the left and one to the right and then.....yeah, that does sound a bit scary. Will we one day get to the point where we try to replace the fork with one of brass? And whom would be look to for this method (hint, hint)?

For the moment, my SD45 is running nicely so I will follow the old advice: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

JackM

Chuck - You'd have to see it to understand. But if push came to shove, I'm sure we'd be quick to try all sorts of things, and wire doesn't sound like the worst. Join us, won't you? (Heh, heh)


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe a picture would help me see what you guys are talking about. 

I am having a hard time picturing the comments. 

Chuck

I'll join you guys if someone gives me an Aristo diesel.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Aristo 3 axle motor block fork area*

Chuck,

Look at the picture I placed in *post 31*. There is very little room to do much.

-Ted


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ted. 

Chuck


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