# 2009 BTS a bust.....



## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

for me anyway. The prices were ridiculas, $12.00 just to get in the door. Last year I believe it was $10. With the $2.00 off cupon though it was fine. I was able to talk to a lot of the folks from this forum that were there and missed others I'm sure. Walked in and couldn't believe the jumble of humanity. The place was packed to the rafters in my opinion. Couldn't even get close to the display tables in most places. I saw the new live steam SPNG engine from Accucraft but they only had a small end cap display. Hard to get too with the crowd. I'm sure I missed a lot of other fine displays due to the crush of humanity too. After things thinned out, I noted that there were fewer LS sellers than in past years too. Barry's Big Trains was absent, the Tool Dr wasn't there and Train-Li was missing too. Again unless I missed them due to the large crowd. N Scale seemed to dominate the layouts. It's cute stuff, but not what I came to see. 

Needless to say I was disappointed with the state of affairs. I also heard a rumor which I will not pass along. Maybe that is why it was opened up to the smaller scales. Let's just say that this may be the last we see of a West Coast Large Scale Train show. The only thing I bought was a set of plastic windows for $5.95. A most disappointing show for me at least. I hope others did better.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw the BTS a little differently. Purchased some switchstands for my new narrow gauge turnouts and a rail benderfrom Sunset Valley. Axel and Joanne Tillman were there from Train-Li and got to talk with Axel about the rail he is importing from Germany. Nice stuff, not TOO pricey. The aisles were very crowded-almost as bad as the "rusty boat" used to be! $12 for admission and $8 for parking was a little steep! Deloro seemed to be tucked back away in a corner of the hall. TOO many N gauge and HO layouts! Quite a few of the booths were difficult to get into because of the crowding. The compllaint I have was that there were no maps available showing the location of vendors. There was a lot of open space in the south end of the hall, but everything in the north side was crammed in. I received a discount card in the mail from the BTS. You had to turn that card in today and receive NO discount tomorrow. OR you had to buy a 2-Day pass today. NOT a big discount on that either! I hope this won't be the last BTS, but the way it was run today is not going to help attendance. Just my .02.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I only had a very short window of time to visit this year. Saw a few freinds there but I think I had to leave so early I missed alot of folks, but I did manage to make two rounds while I was there and managed to pick up some shady lady figurines at the "Just Plain Folks" booth, but a couple vendors I was hoping would be there werent so I had to leave empty handed of some detail stuff I was hoping to pick up. 

From a LS ONLY perspective yeah it was a bit dissappointing, but from a general train show perspective it looked to be a big success. Lots of people and what looked like lots of sales going on, it was still about 50-60% large scale but the smaller scales definetly brought in a very different vibe. It felt alot more like a GATS than the BTS we all know and loved. I hate to say it but if this show IS a bigger success that it may very well signal the end of the all large scale show if the promoters think they can make more money as an all scale show. The demise of the GATS leaves a big vacuum of shows out here. 

Now that being said IF the BTS goes all scale again next year, we have to remember that with the demise of then GATS its still one of the VERY FEW train shows we get out here on the left coast, so we may find we just have to adjust to this new reality. I hope we continue to participate next year, I was really sorely dissappointed I couldnt bring the portable this year after rebuilding it so much specifically for just this event. Such is life.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder how a packed show is the sign of a bad show? Promotion of the hobby is what shows are about. I would be much more worried if it were an empty hall....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I had a great time. My main reason for coming to the show is to see all my MLS friends. I know it is a expensive way to do it but you guys are worth it. I got a few items that struck my fancy. The camaraderie between all the scale was evident. Hey its trains. I am glad there was a crowd. Two guys I work with came to the show because it was all scale. One brought his family. I have been doing printing trade show since 1985 They all charge for parking, vendors included. Things have gone up in price no way around it. I missed a few vendors that were not there. There was a tool man who didn't come. So I didn't get the tools I wanted to replace. 

The USA banquet was good. Brian explained the changes. The food was GOOD and plentiful. No rubber chicken, no shoe leather beef, no crunchy half cooked vegetables. The play was funny. I got a show car. ( my 12th) 
I pray for the success of this because when I get to see all you guys everything is right in the universe.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree JJ. The show for me is about seeing my old friends at MLS, not so much the show itself. One highlight for me was meeting Rod Fearnley for the first time. Very nice guy! Saw Paul Burch again and we talked. He and I go back almost fifty years when we went ro high school and college together when he lived in So. Cal. and we were involved with HO trains. Nothing changes! Howard Sheldon took a photo of Rod, John Corradini and myself, at the MLS booth. Never did catch-up with Dwight and Tommy Mejia! These are the reasons I hope the show continues-commaraderie(SP?).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just got back a little while ago, it's about a 2-2.5 hour drive from my house (depending on traffic).

I received a card in the mail, so I got $10 a day, not bad. The Marriot was VERY convenient, $11.75 a day for all day parking there, but so close it was reasonable to walk out to the car and put stuff in it, or pick up a folding chair to sit outside with the steam guys. The room was fine, $63 a night was a very good deal in my opinion. The hotel people were very nice, and the breakfast buffet was included in my room, maybe because my wife is in the Marriot rewards program.


I had a lot of fun, and I am SO glad that Dwight busted my chops to stay the night. Meeting many MLS and non-MLS people was GREAT. Everyone was nice, and what fun to talk about trains at FULL SPEED instead of typing!

My biggest problem was I did not have enough time! I got to speak to everyone, and maybe I can share some funny stories. I'll need to think about editing some of them ha ha!


It was crowded but not terribly so, and less crowded than the smaller space and funny layout inside the Queen Mary. I like having everything on the same floor.


Funny about missing Train-Li, I must have spent 3 hours in the booth with Axel and his charming wife. I got to fix a couple of wires, run the remote uncoupler, Axel programmed up a new DCC decoder for me right there and got parts for me I needed.

The aisle that had Train-Li also has Jonathan for Electric Modelwerks and the Aristo booth and LSOL... VERY interesting to walk up and down that aisle, especially since I spent Saturday morning walking the show with George Schreyer, who everyone (it seemed) recognized. I had a heck of a good time.


I got to talk to Chuck Ro and Fred Devine and everyone I wanted to talk to . I got a lot of information and good discussions on future products, and insights on where each manufacturer was and wanted to go. I even went into the Aristo booth and saw the Revolution running a loco on rollers and could observe the unit under light load.

The Accucraft/AML people are very interested in what people want next and seem to be listening very carefully. I'm really happy to see another manufacturer enter the 1:29 market with great looking and well scaled products.


I believe Del Oro was tucked into the corner because their excellent layout has many scenes/structures with sound and the layout can really generate a lot of noise! People who are very familar with that layout noticed that several of the louder displays were missing and on others the volume was turned down. Can't blame the vendors for requesting this. I would not really characterize them as tucked into a corner, though, that layout is BIG!.

The Aristo people were happy with Saturday, they sold out of all their Revolution equipment that day!


I found out that AML had put the correct trucks on the new stock cars and got a great deal from Jonathan, and bought 4, plus more of his speakers, he always finds great speakers in all different sizes. (Since his is an audio expert, kind of no surprise there). 

I had a long shopping list for myself and a friend, and got everything, including some excellent advice on some upcoming projects.


But the best for the last, SO nice to see the MLS people and talk to them in person. Some people easy to find... JJ, don't ever take that hat off! 

I wish I knew more people by sight, maybe more people will put their picture up as their avatar. I got to see Rod, John, Dwight and Tommy and his wife and daughter several times. I hung out with Mikey and Charlie and Josh, and just had a ball. Even was up till 1am with a few people, joking and haveing a good time.


I had a great time!


Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Almost sounds like a must do show for next year. Everybody having fun and spending money







. As they say you do not get many LS shows out your way and to share with other scale should not be a problem. Kind of satisfies all players. Here again we are promoting trains and that's what is all about. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/07/2009 6:31 PM

Funny about missing Train-Li, I must have spent 3 hours in the booth with Axel and his charming wife. I got to fix a couple of wires, run the remote uncoupler, Axel programmed up a new DCC decoder for me right there and got parts for me I needed.

I had a great time!


Greg 




Funny thing there Greg, I found myself in the same boat with the Dalton, GA show, spent the bulk of my time with them. Good, no- great people in my book. Was nice to put faces with e-mails with the Tillmans!


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I went today to the BTS and met up with Greg, talked to the folks at the MLS booth (my condolences to Shad and his family), met face to face with Axel and Joanne from Train-Li. They are great folks and a pleasure to do business with. Being from the East Coast (Atlanta area) I got to see folks that are out West. The $12 was a bit pricey as I spent less than that on fuel and had a 3 hr round trip drive but the parking was free and only a 5 min walk. I would go again next year if i am out here.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got home a few hours ago. I arrived in Ontario on Wednesday evening and left today at noon. Overall I had a great time! The BTS is the only time of the year I get to see all my forum buddies, hang out with them, run trains with them, drink and joke with them, etc., and that's why I continue to go year atyer year. This year was no exception. It's one of the highlights of my social year.

This year was Greg's and Penny's first time staying over, and several of us were committed to making sure Penny had a good time so she'd want to come back next year. We already KNEW Greg would have a ball - hehehe!! Marge Reilley did a great job of taking Penny around the show and letting her see it from a "train nut's wife" point of view.  I think Penny is now convinced that we're a real group of nuts, but a fun group of nuts. 

I can't speak much to the show itself as there's very little at any of these shows that really interests me as there's very little live steam. Accucraft had their prototypes for SP 8 and 9 and those were very cool! I'd already seen #8 at their facility, but it was good to see it running. I always enjoy seeing the Door Hollow Shortline and its builders Bob Baxter and his wife, and Don Gage. Dave Crocker is always around too. Same goes for Del Oro and a few of the guys I know (somewhat) who built and operate it.

All that being said, the show isn't the same as it once was, and hasn't been since moving to Ontario. It's still fun, but some of the "family feel" is no longer there, at least not during the daytime. It also seems like fewer live steamers come out to run on Bob's track, and there are definitely fewer observers from the show, and fewer questions.

Bottom line, I wouldn't call it a bust by any stretch, at least not for me, and as always, I had a great time with my friends, especially after hours, but it definitely "feels" different than it once did.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

My first BTS and quite frankly, I had a blast. Yes it was crowded Saturday morning, but at 4 in the afternoon there was plenty of room to browse and time for the vendors to chat. My impression, way better than the Great Train Expo that comes to Portland, not a good as the National Convention that I went to in Santa Clara, but also the economy is different. As I will not make the national this year, a good show to go to. It is nice to actually see and touch what is out there instead of looking at the website.

I did not have a car, just flying in and using the shuttle so the parking fees did not affect me, but the price for OCC is not uot of line for Convention Centers today. 

The one lack, because I was flying and had no car, no shipping available at the Center. Reduced what I purchased...maybe a good thing. 

What really made the Show for me was meeting all of the MLS people with whom I have corresponded with on the forums and to be able to put a real face to the avatar. Thanks to all of you for making it a excellent visit, you are great folks.










Nick


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It was great to meet you Nick. Hope to see you there next year.


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## John Corradini (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice to meeting you Nick. Hope to see you at the show next year.


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## pcentral (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 
Sorry I missed you and sorry you did not enjoy the show. Some of the things you did not like were explained already but let me add a few more. The Ontario Convention Center now owns the BTS and it's a good thing for Brian Curry. Brian has been the owner for years and the last 3 or 4 years he has looked quite worn and ragged from it. Brian decided with help from his family it was time to sell the show. He will still be an advisor for the show though. The decision for the all scale show came from the OCC I think. At risk of public blasting I'm going to say it was a good choice. Why, because a show with all the booths full of trains no matter the scale, and not alot of empty booths like last year is better than no show at all. An all scale show also draws in more people and that can lead to more small scale people joining large scale. 

As for the show layout, vendor locations will change from year to year as better spaces come available. Accucraft moved to a 10' by 20' end cap in front from the 10' by 20' end cap in the middle of the show they had last year. Narrow Gauge Junction moved from the end cap Accucraft held this year to a larger booth on an isle. Gold Coast Station and St. Aubins moved to different locations but retained there size I believe. I do agree there was too many layouts of the same scale. If you are going to have an all scale show you need to have all scales of layouts represented. 

Unfortunately, for now, an all scale show is the best we have. There may be something else down the road but this is the best we have now. As others have mentioned the most fun is getting together with old friends and meeting new ones. I think alot of the spark we have lost from the old rusty boat is due to folks not knowing whats going on where. 

Steve


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Steve for the info, guess its pretty clear its going to be all scales from here on out. Thats just something we'll have to get used to.


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess it is time for me to give my thoughts about the BTS and hopefully these will not come out too negative. Jackie and I have been setting up the live steam track for the last nine years and we have seen a lot of changes. Nine years ago nobody wanted to set up the existing track and we took over the responsibility. I signed a contract with the BTS to set it up for four years and the track would be ours. Of course, it burned up in the fith year in the forest fire and with a all the wonderful help of our MLS friends we rebuilt it.
In the years that we set up at the QM, things were really fantastic. We changed the
live steam track from a non attended feature of the show to a major feature and a show stopper. It was because of the crowds that we drew that the rest of the tracks moved outdoors. Also, at the QM, we were able to build the track around our camper trailer and "live" there for the weekend with a track around our house. We have fond memories of sitting out with the morning cup of coffee watching a train run and waving at our friends on the top decks of the boat. Jackie enjoyed serving coffee to all of them as they came to enjoy the track and the visits. Made her feel like she was the Harvey Girl of the track. " Living" there also gave us the opportunity to be our own security for our track and the trains and those that ran could stash their stuff under our trailer. The MLS booth and the live steam track were the central meeting place and we had some great times in those years.
Since we have moved the show to Ontario, things have really changed for me. The track is not allowed to be inside because of their fire restrictions and now we are the only ones outside. We are no longer allowed to have our trailer there overnight, heck, they give me grief about having my vehicle or any other vehicle next to the track. Last year, I had to hunt down parking lots in the area to camp in after the show. This year I didn't even bring the trailer and drove home every night in the fog on mountain roads. All these things makes us feel like we are out of the loop. We have some great friends at the show and enjoy their company during the day. But come five o'clock, when the show closes, everybody is gone to wherever and we just close up and head home. It's not till the next day that we find out about all the fun they had.
Setting up the live steam at the BTS is a lot of work for us and a lot of responsibility. I usually start a couple of weeks ahead of time and even had to buy a truck this year to make sure I got the track there this year. I do it for entertainment and when it ceases to be fun I start questioning why I do it. A lot less people have been showing up to steam and there is a lot less public. Abiding to all the rules of the OCC is a drag too. Like Dwight, we do the show for the camaraderie as there isn't all that much in the show for those of us that do live steam. Actually, I enjoy scenic tracks and had one for many years, but I don't even have a home track at the moment. So, bottom line right now, is that when the effort I have to put out outweighs the amount of fun we have, I question whether we will do the show again. But not to worry as I have a whole year to decide and we aren't as bummed as we sound. It would be nice if the show people would bend in my direction a little more and my sponsor support me a little more too.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

My big disappointment was that I didn't win any raffle prizes this year.







This is only the second time that I haven't won anything in 11 years. However, I've often won 2 or 3 (including the grand prize) so am still doing better than 1:1.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By toddalin on 06/10/2009 2:27 PM
My big disappointment was that I didn't win any raffle prizes this year.







This is only the second time that I haven't won anything in 11 years. However, I've often won 2 or 3 (including the grand prize) so am still doing better than 1:1.










I didn't win a ding dang thing either. At least last year I wond a log car I couldn't use.







I sold it to some one who could here on MLS.


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## Greg Stevens (Jan 3, 2008)

Well Steve, you let the cat out of the bag about the BTS being sold. That's the rumor I alluded to in my original post. One thing that I failed to mention in the original post was that I had the Grand kids in tow along with my son. He isn't really interested in trains, as he runs the real thing every day at work. I also had to cut my day short because of a family problem, but that's another story. 

I kind of liked the fact that we had our own show (LS) that was seperate from the other shows that come around throughout the year. I am not opposed to the other scales, heck, I started with Flyer and went to HO, then Large Scale. The problem I had with this show was the crush of humanity at the beginning of the day. There were so many people there, that I couldn't even get close to most of the booths to even look. As I had to leave around lunch time, I missed a large part of the show that I usually save for last, really getting to look at the small things and buying "something." And the layouts were nice, it was just too much of the smaller stuff. I never got to even look at the Del Oro this year. Oh well, that's life and there's always next year.


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

I found the show to be a lot of fun. We all expected it to be down as a result of the economy, but it wasn't down nearly as much as expected. Del Oro Pacific was in its same corner as in the past and we feared being cut way back because of the other scales. It turns out we were only cut back a couple of modules. We all got plenty of running time, I think my little K27 had close to 4 hours over the weekend. 

In the past we have had to pay parking fees despite being exhibitors. Brian got those waved this year so we got in free. Now in my case this got even better. Because I'm in a wheelchair, I drive a handicapped van with a power door and drop ramp. This needs room to operate. So Brian gave me a pass that allowed me to park right next to the loading ramp. Just drop the ramp and roll right in. After fighting non-existent handicapped parking at the rusty boat for so many years, you can't imagine how nice this was. I could even get into the restroom. Also on the rusty boat, to get in, security had to take me in through several locked gates around the back of the boat and down a steep ramp. To get security usually took 15 minutes. It was so bad, I generally went without lunch as the food was all on the outside. Now everything is right there. 

I'm a happy railroader 

John


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## spodwo (Jan 2, 2008)

We all expected it to be down as a result of the economy, but it wasn't down nearly as much as expected. 


Since it is an all scale event now - how big would have it have been if it was ONLY Large Scale? 

Plus - this is a huge population area and has the draw. I am going to be interested in seeing how the little train show in Galesburg RR days is going to be this year....every year it gets smaller and the only thing that has stemmed the lack of seller tables is that it opened to other types of sellers [model cars/metal cars/collectibles].


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By spodwo on 06/14/2009 7:42 AM



We all expected it to be down as a result of the economy, but it wasn't down nearly as much as expected. 


Since it is an all scale event now - how big would have it have been if it was ONLY Large Scale? 

Plus - this is a huge population area and has the draw. I am going to be interested in seeing how the little train show in Galesburg RR days is going to be this year....every year it gets smaller and the only thing that has stemmed the lack of seller tables is that it opened to other types of sellers [model cars/metal cars/collectibles]. 




I don't have actual data, but I'd guesstimate, from what I saw, that maybe only 10% of the exhibitors were non-large-scale applicable: some HO, some O scale/tinplate, a little bit of N, IIRC. Not enough that I found it detracting - it was easy to walk right on past if not interested. I actually did stop at the Blackstone Models booth to check out their impressive HOn3 D&RGW Mikado w/Soundtrax sound running.

As far as modular displays go, the % of smaller scales was much higher. That didn't bother me a bit - good modeling is good modeling, regardless of scale, IMHO. My wife and I particularly enjoyed the '20s'30s HO scale modular layout http://www.trainweb.org/20s30s/- it is the most cohesive multi-owner modular layout I've seen to date. Most are a hodgepodge of different themes and eras that I find distracting.


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