# Help needed to ID a donated 0-4-0 locomotive



## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

Hello,


A coal fired steam 0-4-0 locomotive and two cars were donated to our museum from an estate. I am seeking help with identifying what we have and hopefully to find a worthy home for it.

Our museum is a WWII aviation museum and we will likely sell the train so we can raise funds for our flying 1945 Lockheed PV-2D Harpoon restoration. 


Could I ask you all for help to identify this cool looking train for us? I have looked through many images on the internet to try and identify it and some come close but none are just like this one.


Any ideas of manufacturer? 


Was it manufactured complete, a kit or purely home built? The previous owner was a machinist so I imagine that he built it himself.


What vintage might it be? 


Is it feasible to try to get it certified/running to verify its condition for the next owner? 


It comes complete with two cars, a flat car with an engineers bench and an open car with two seats. It has its maintenance stand, loading tracks and all the tools and oilers needed to run. It looks to me to be in real nice shape besides being dusty. 


Any idea of its value as is or running? 


Where would be the best place to find it a good home and help us to raise funds for our PV-2D?


I am embarrassed to say that we need every dollar we come up with to get to get the Harpoon back into her full fighting trim from 1945. We are a 501c3 nonprofit with emphasis on the nonprofit part.

I have attached a shot of the PV-2 at the bottom as she looks today. One of only three flying today. She was a derelict air tanker just a few years ago that was going to be cut up and scrapped. We got her flying and brought her home where an all volunteer staff has kept her as a flying restoration. She was a hollow stripped out shell when we got her and now she has about 75% of her original radio, armament and radar gear back inside at her crew positions. More information and photos about the project from start to finish can be seen on a Warbird Information Exchange forum thread here:


http://warbirdinformationexchange.o...b78cb0d7b0

Thanks in advance for any information, leads or help with finding the train a good home.


Taigh Ramey
Stockton Field Aviation Museum
[email protected]

Links to photos of the locomotive and our PV-2D Harpoon 










http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/1web.jpeg










http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/2web.jpeg










Here are some measurmentsGage 7.5 inchLength of the engine overall 30 inchesWidth of the engine overall 13"Height from rail to top of cab 18"Inside of the fire box:Length 5"Width 4"Height 7" approx from top to bottom of ash panOverall length from end of fire box to front of boiler 25"Outside diameter of boiler 5"OD of fire box:L 6.5"W 5.5"H 10" 


http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/3web.jpeg











http://www.twinbeech.com/images/Air...RC6web.jpg


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

What gauge track is it? Looks like 15", compared to the toolbox. 

Is the estate not able to give any detail about the age? Not even any information about where the owner ran it? I'd imagine people in his association would have these answers.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Taigh, 

I would say this engine is sitting on 7 1/4 or 7 1/2 inch gauge track. Looks as though the builder wanted to get some kind of non-descript Porter. Look at the clasp on the "small" toolbox and notice the two small oil cans. We use similar cans on our 1.5"/ft. Mogul. This was probably custom/homebuilt using standard castings from various large scale manufacturers. The cylinders almost appear to be Gene Allen's Chloe castings as are the steam chests. The pressure gage in the cab is almost identical to the gages Gene sold with his steam engine kits. They were roughly 1.5" in diameter. From the pictures, this engine has seen better days. Idf you can't get information form the donor regarding who built this loco, then you should contact a local live steam club (large scale, ride-on stuff, not garden railroad) and get an opinion from a member with experience with older used engines. This particular engine could have been built in the 1970's or even into the 90's. If I'm correct about the castings, then this engine could be around 30-35 years old. Depending if this boiler is copper entirely OR steel with copper flues, it would definitely have to be certified to run. This alone could take some time and money. This is a 50-50 shot here. Could be a diamond in the rough OR a complete disaster (money pit). You need lots more info to make a credible decision. Good luck.


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks guys,

I am trying to get more information about the guy who passed away. He was 90+ years old and nobody left seems to know much about the history of the train or when it was made. 1970's is a possibility for sure.

It looks dirty from sitting in the garage but it seems like it is in good shape and was well cared for in the day but what do I know. I agree that I should find a local train club that can help with the hydrostatic and inspections. How much is a typical hydrostatic?

Here are some measurements:

Gage 7.5 inchLength of the engine overall 30 inchesWidth of the engine overall 13"Height from rail to top of cab 18"Inside of the fire box:Length 5"Width 4"Height 7" approx from top to bottom of ash panOverall length from end of fire box to front of boiler 25"Outside diameter of boiler 5"OD of fire box:L 6.5"W 5.5"H 10"


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

A few more crude phone photos:









http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/4.JPG









http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/5.JPG 









http://www.twinbeech.com/images/temp/train/6.JPG


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, this engine is definitely using Gene Allen's castings. The cylinder block is very similar to the Mogul/Ten-wheeler cyl. blocks including the center cam on the front axle for the axle water pump. 

Out here, our club would do your hydrostatic test for free.


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

So do you think it was scratch built using Gene Allens castings? Any idea how old the build might be?

Are there any other photos you all might want me to take?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Taigh Ramey on 10 Feb 2013 04:12 PM 
So do you think it was scratch built using Gene Allens castings? Any idea how old the build might be?

Are there any other photos you all might want me to take? 
My guess that they are Gene Allen castings is just an educated guess. A good friend and I own three Allen locomotives.....a Mogul already built and two ten-wheelers that we built ourselves. Our ten-wheelers date back to 1980. The Mogul dates back to about 1975. This could be a few years older than that.



AND BTW, do you have any relatives living out here in the So. California area with the last "Ramey"? I have a very old friend here I have known for 60+ years with your last name. Lives in Tehachapi now.


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know any Ramey's down there specifically. There are some in Sacramento that came from West Virginia which is where my Father is from. Some day I would like to visit the family tree on one of those internet ancestry sites. Another one of those projects on the to do list.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Gary A 

The engine could go way back. IIRC Gene Allen got his original patterns from a gentleman by the name of Harper. So the "Wabash Mogul" and the parts go pretty far back.


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

Do you think that this engine is patterned after the Wabash Mogul or is it just something that was built without any lineage to a real train?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Taigh 

The Wabash mogul [2-6-0] was one of the first affordable 1.5 in/ft locomotive "kits" available. The first castings were done by a Mr. Harper. Gene Allen picked up the line and eventually offered a kit that had nearly everything needed to build either a 2-6-0 or a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler. However, AFAIK, all the major castings could be purchased separately for building a locomotive of your own design. The 0-4-0 is probably "freelanced", but there are (or were) lots of little industrial locos similar to this built by H.K. Porter and others, including ones with rectangular saddle tanks such as your model. 

Did the family have any information or files. A machinist who builds something of this size USUALLY makes some notes and or drawings and they may not yet have made it to the trash if someone knows to ask or look for them. 

The only way [and Gary can confirm this] to establish any real value is to have someone knowledgeable in 1.5 in scale live steam see it in person. I have seen locos like this go at auction at Cabin Fever for only a few hundred dollars to a coupe of thousand. Since there is apparently no provenance or even a boiler inspection certificate, any buyer may be getting a "gem in the rough" or a "pig in a poke" and will make an offer accordingly. Remember, wider track gauge does not always spell more dollars. 

Good luck.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 10 Feb 2013 07:14 PM 
Gary A 

The engine could go way back. IIRC Gene Allen got his original patterns from a gentleman by the name of Harper. So the "Wabash Mogul" and the parts go pretty far back. Thanks Jim for jogging my old memory. I was trying to think of the name of the man that Gene got his patterns from when I was replying to Taigh. Bob Haper was the gentleman. He believe after he sold Harper Models to Gene in the late sixties or early seventies, he became some kind of a superintendant with the railroads at Disney World in Florida. Kind of a funny story goes with Bob Harper and Gene Allen.....shows that some of the "snarky" comments heard in this site, also go into the ride-on stuff in the much larger scales. Soon after my late Dad and I and my Dad's partner, bought our two ten-wheeler kits(1980).......Gene told us to look around the Los Angeles Live Steamers and find a Mogul owner that might give us some tips on building the engines. So my Pop called one of the owners of a Wabash mogul and he mentioned we were starting to build an "Allen Mogul". Boy did my Dad get an earful!! The owner said "His was a HARPER Mogul, NOT an ALLEN Mogul!!" They are, in fact, the same damn engine!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 10 Feb 2013 07:34 PM 
Taigh 

The Wabash mogul [2-6-0] was one of the first affordable 1.5 in/ft locomotive "kits" available. The first castings were done by a Mr. Harper. Gene Allen picked up the line and eventually offered a kit that had nearly everything needed to build either a 2-6-0 or a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler. However, AFAIK, all the major castings could be purchased separately for building a locomotive of your own design. The 0-4-0 is probably "freelanced", but there are (or were) lots of little industrial locos similar to this built by H.K. Porter and others, including ones with rectangular saddle tanks such as your model. 

Did the family have any information or files. A machinist who builds something of this size USUALLY makes some notes and or drawings and they may not yet have made it to the trash if someone knows to ask or look for them. 

The only way [and Gary can confirm this] to establish any real value is to have someone knowledgeable in 1.5 in scale live steam see it in person. I have seen locos like this go at auction at Cabin Fever for only a few hundred dollars to a coupe of thousand. Since there is apparently no provenance or even a boiler inspection certificate, any buyer may be getting a "gem in the rough" or a "pig in a poke" and will make an offer accordingly. Remember, wider track gauge does not always spell more dollars. 

Good luck. Good points all, Jim. We paid about $2000 and some change for our ten-wheeler kit in November 1980. This included all the castings (unmachined BTW), prints and a complete welded and finished steel boiler with copper flues (Certified with the welders stamp on the boiler). The boiler was about $900+ then. To actually complete the locomotive, we had to buy all the steel for the loco frame and machine it, steel for the tender, fabricate our own tender tank, build our own trucks for the tender, lots of brass for bearings and all the goodies that had to be machined.......Gene gave us a price of $14,500 for a completed locomotive ready to steam and be delivered in one year (same day we purchased the kit). If I had known then, what I know now, I would have bought a ready to run steamer that day! I would have spent a lot less money!! The only joy I received was that I actually built the damn thing myself! And not too many of us have done that.









Right now, you can probably get a mogul or ten-wheeler in "cherry" condition for less than $7K-$8K. My steamin' buddy and a another and I have been building a 3 3/4"/ft NG Porter for the past ten years. Just got it running last September. STILL lots of work to do! But we finally have our BIG NG engine. We designed this sucker by the seat of our pants....freelance. As a matter of fact, Rodney Edington called me a few weeks ago, saying he had purchased a one inch scale Little Engines Pacific from (shhhhhh Marty Cozad) for a good price and was about to get involved in that scale.

These engines are really difficult to price out. Just too many variables.


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm with Gary, you have to take this to a live steamers club and have them look at it closely. The biggest question is the boiler, first if it was built right, second if it was cared for properly, and lastly is there any life left in it. Unfortunately the market for locomotives like this is small to begin with, most people want something with a pilot truck and a tender to ride on so the 0-4-0' often go cheap, especially in a down economy.


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## Taigh Ramey (Feb 10, 2013)

A member recognized the engine and says he knows the builder who made it from his own castings. I am excited to hear more so I have asked him for the details and to get in touch with the builder. Great news! 

Thanks for all of your help and advice. I agree that I need to take it to a local club for an inspection and testing. I did some cleaning yesterday and it is in real nice shape. Under the dust the paint is real nice and inside the front cap looks very nice too. I will post more photos later. 

gra2472- it came complete with the maintenance stand and two cars. A flat car with the engineers seat that doubles as a coal box and a gondola that has two benches. The trucks are heavy and the wheels are lathe turned. It has aluminum cast couplings with a spare in the tool box. The tool box is loaded with parts, lube etc. There are two pieces of track that I assume are for loading into the car or onto the club track. It seems to be a complete outfit.


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