# Building Big Iron 4-8-4



## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Hopefully, I will be able to figure out how to do this properly!
So, no pic, just a red square, WTH do I do now? Last night the pic posted, but no text would go on. Help!

Also, the "cancel" button at bottom, don't cancel the post; what's it for? Problems are my middle name...............











_(See your test topic _Click Here[/b] _in the Beginner's forum, SteveC mod.)_


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

OK, Steve C helped me out here, I may not be out of the woods completely yet, so if the pics I start talking about are not on your screen, PLEASE let me know. 

The 2 line drawings above are the only dimensioned info I had on the locomotive I wanted to build. All the other stuff was black & white photos out of books. Like a foolish young man, which I was at 17, I did not take pictures while that monster was pulling us on the steam excursion, 1959 September. I measured the important lengths of parts not dimensioned on the drawings, used the existing important dimensions, and began drawing detail prints in 2002. Had no idea what the frame or bed looked like, so used ideas from Martin Evans' book, "Manual of Model Steam Locomotive Construction", and of course, Joe Nelson's, "So You Want to Build a Live Steam Locomotive". 

I think many persons considering building must peruse a forum like this one, so mostly I aim to help them as much as possible with my descriptions. That is not to say, my stuff is very great, or even good, for that matter, but ideas always help. This is why I invite any sort of question, comment, or criticism; I am still learning a lot, and wish I had access to a forum when I started out. We did not even have a computer then! That's probably why I am so doggoned computer illiterate. 

I am THAT "old-school"; sorry. In 2002, my wife & I were living on a shoestring, neither working, (by choice), so funding the build required careful spending, scrounging, which I do anyhow, and slowly buying materials. Buying castings was pretty much out of the question, so I had to resort to considerable mind-searching often to come up with ways to machine parts which should look "right" with adequate detail, which castings would already have had, such as the rear truck. The front truck is pretty well hidden by the cylinders, and therefore looks were less important there. I know, I have evaded the issue of "realism" or faithful duplication of the appearance of the original locomotive, so call me down for doing so, if you wish. 

Here are the premises I made before beginning: All rotating and reciprocating parts, but not pistons and valves, obviously, would run on low-friction bearings, either ball or needle. Turned out, I used no needle bearings, although several times their smaller O.D. was tempting. Even the crossheads run back & forth on ball bearings captive in grooves, 4 per side. Side rods had all grease-sealed ball bearings at first, with the main rods having slightly bigger bearings in the "big ends", and spherical bearings in the crosshead. Re-work later to get more lateral movement for the drive wheels required spherical bearings in the ends of the side rods. This was done after learning, the hard way, my 50-foot radius trackage still allowed drivers to occasionally "climb" up on the rail; I still believe this would have been less pronounced had I used steel instead of aluminum rail, which was all I could barely afford to buy, anyhow. As it turned out finally, I removed the driver flanges entirely on the center 4 wheels as an extra help. She "slides" around those curves pretty nice, now! 

2nd. premise was that I would use materials easily machined wherever possible. My milling cutters were bought in a package, used, for a good price, money was tight, and my Tool & Die Maker Father had never shown me how to sharpen 'em (only drill bits, a fact I thank him for dearly!). Obviously, all wheels, axles, crank pins, boiler parts, "cow catcher", threaded fasteners, and framing for the cab, are of steel. The frame skeleton for the tender was made up out of 1 inch square steel tubing I had gotten free from a Sears store which was pitching out some big display ware. That tubing gave me the chance to learn how to use the MIG welder I had bought as a "return" from that same store! There is NO WOOD in the build! Do not want to bore with excessive drivel here, and will try to successfully post pics of some of the weird (sort-of) machining ways I resorted to! Thanks for reading! jinn 

Edit: I did something wrong. All my paragraphs ran together when posted; did not write it that way. Sorry about the "tough read". jinn 
(I fixed it the best I could - maybe not hw you originally wrote it, but did my best.







Dwight)[/i]


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Jinn, 
I like your work and your attitude towards getting it done as best you can. Some good drawings here:
http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/union_pacific_drawings.html 

You can buy just individual sheets, don't have to buy the whole set, if you don't want. You can get them made in any scale also. I had them
do UP 844 for me in 1/29. Good folk to deal with, I thought.


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Here, hopefully, are a couple pics showing a bit of close detail. These are taken with old-fashioned still camera. Got a digital later, now close-ups are better, or WERE, until it fell off the kitchen counter and now shuts off whenever it feels like it!

The Baker Valve gear was difficult to make. All parts swing on little ball bearings. I tried to get the shape of parts close to what showed on the line drawing. As things turned out, the "kick" in the eccentric rod, not present on the prototype, became necessary after the support frame for the gear turned out to be farther from the frame than originally thought necessary. The side rods were mounted a bit further from the wheels, as an afterthought, thinking maybe lateral movement to accomodate curves MIGHT become a problem. (It did!).




























(I corrected your above links as per the PM, SteveC mod.







)[/i]


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Wheels. I've been asked how I made the "box-pok" drivers without them being rough-cast for shape first. If I am calling them by name properly, box-pok are the non-spoked type wheels having round and oblong holes in them.

The faces of the wheels are rather cone-shaped, so that they taper inward at the outside of the wheel. To do that in the lathe would require a very long sweep with the compound set at the correct angle; mine only has about 2 inches of travel, so it would require re-positioning, then cutting further, etc.

I placed the wheel face-up on a rotary table mounted on my vertical milling machine, tilted the spindle head sideways the proper amount, used a large end mill to cut away the face as it rotated on the table. Sort of like having a rotating cutter in your lathe's tailstock, set at an angle, and the wheel mounted on a faceplate. Make sense? A picture will clarify, if it comes up; been having poor results with pics due to my inability to use a computer.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The term "BoxPox" is supposed to be pronounced "Box-Spoke" and is a description of what they are. The "spokes" of the wheel are "box" in cross-section, i.e.: hollow. This allowed a lighter, yet stronger, and more easily balanced drive wheel.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

A good friend of mine who passed away way to soon from cancer in 1986, was building the Daylight #4449 in 1/8 sca;le, in the early eighties. My Dad owned a forging die shop WITH a pattern shop-6 pattern makers. Work was a little slow so my Dad offered to have a couple of men make patterns for the eight boxpox drivers for his engine directly from actual prints from Lima. All those drivers are very different from one another depending on where they are located in the drive train you know. They were really beautiful. But one small problem. The foreman of the pattern shop wasn't really watching these guys too close. They didn't allow for the shrink of the cast iron OR the machining stock! They DID redo the patterns and cast the drivers correctly. Now I have a few bookends made using the "scrap" drivers. I'll try to post a couple of pictures of them. The detail is awesome! You have done a phenomenal job on those "hog-outs. Really great work! 

A friend of ours at Lod Angeles Live Steamers built an Allen Ten-wheeler with Baker valve gear. He had one heck of a time with it, but it looks very nice! Much better than the Stephanson gear I have on my Ten-wheeler.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

jinn,

Here's the boxpox driver bookend I was talking about in the post above. Not the best picture, but it gives you an idea.










That's my Accucraft #346 just behind.


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Steve C has been helping me with my illiteracy! If you happened to view my post before he "fixed" it, you saw a red "X" instead of the picture. I'll try another using his directions.

Here is a shot of the frame with drive wheels mounted to it, early in the building process.

_OK, halfway there! Obviously too small, will try again!_ 
*Gosh, my dumbness is pervasive! Now all I gotta remember is HTH I did it! Thanks for your patience! Anything I post appearing to be complete nonsense, just write it off, as it is probably a reflection upon my computer abilities! jinn*


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Gary, if completing my loco drives me far enough up the wall, I will take your wonderful idea to heart and make some bookends out of it's key pieces! At times during this "scratch-build" madness, I have actually considered dropping the whole thing. For example, no diagram or picture of Baker Gear was able to poke through into my consciousness exactly how it worked, so I built a mock-up out of hunks of plywood, 4 times the size on the loco, with drywall screws as pivots, and finally "saw the light"!


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Everyone will recognize what is pictured in this one, but few may approve of what's being done to it! I wondered for a long time how I could possibly afford to build a boiler, given the facts as I knew them, regarding how they are made usually of copper, and even if steel, it is a specialized process not known to many. I bought a book, "Model Locomotive Boilermaking", by Alec F. Farmer.

It is a good reference, but not strictly geared to my needs, as it mainly deals with copper construction, lots of silver-soldering, forming, bending, and the like. I am a pretty good welder, so figgered (NOT fingered!) out that steel was my way to go. Now, a good, strong steel boiler barrel somewhere in the range of 9 to 11 inches in diameter would be about right for a Northern in 1-1/2" scale. Hmmmm, now where could I scrounge a heavy-wall steel pipe that big without paying an arm and a leg for it?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm WAY out of my depth here but isn't that---extremely dangerous? What was in that tank before the saw started generating heat and sparks?


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 15 Dec 2009 04:28 PM 
I'm WAY out of my depth here but isn't that---extremely dangerous? What was in that tank before the saw started generating heat and sparks?

It is NEVER out of line to question seeming acts of madness! I have always heard that cutting into almost ANY pressure vessel, when empty of course, was dangerous. Heard stories ranging from "propane is stored in the pores of the metal, after the tank is empty", to "explosion is bound to occur".

I DO hope people think twice about copy-catting, as THAT CAN be dangerous. Matter of fact, I ran a "wanted" ad to get a few old high-pressure tanks, cheaply I hoped, and actually came up with 2 empties from Nitrous Oxide (dentists use it), and a couple of Oxygen tanks, which I spared as useful to trade in for new filled ones. I paid $7.50 for one O2 tank at a yard sale, but it was a smaller than I needed size. The tank pictured was originally filled with Nitrous Oxide. 

I always wondered just how thick the wall was on such tanks; they commonly are shipped full at around 2,200 psi! The saw blade sliced through, just like cutting off any other pipe, and the wall turned out to be between 3/16 and 1/4 inch, not really very thick at all. I expected more like 3/8". Anyhow, such tanks are made of high-quality alloy steel, I won't go into the composition unless someone really wants to know.

So, the tank had it's valve open for weeks after I got it, the contents by then were probably a very little bit of Nitrous Oxide, and plain old air. Not even a peep of an explosion. Nitrous Oxide is not itself flammable, but is a chemically active oxidizer, which will promote combustion to a degree when high temps. are present. Oxygen is much more dangerous.

My reasoning in using such a tank was, if they routinely carry 2,000 psi in them, cold, then 100 psi of steam, hot, is pretty lame in comparison.

jinn

Edit: Indeed, I have NEVER cut into or otherwise defaced a tank which was used to contain flammable gas.


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

First pic shows how I sectioned off a piece of the tank, which became the top of the barrel above the firebox. This was then welded to the remaining long length of the completely round part of the boiler barrel, the forward part.















Next pic shows how the curved big pipe was mated to the firebox which hangs below it.


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

There were several requests early on to get pics posted, there are admittedly many who viewed the thread so far, but I respectfully point out that having had little comment lately, good or bad, I have no "feel" for the pulse; how do I know whether to continue or not?

'Course, Guests cannot comment-- REGISTER AND HAMMER ME, don't be bashful!









Anyhoo, here's a few more: The view inside the smokebox, with only the nozzle stand and the petticoat (is that correct?) installed, to show their relative size. The inside diameter of the big pipe is a little over 8-3/4 inches.










Next one is the entire boiler shell with smokebox attached, hanging from the chainfall. Overall length is almost 7 feet!







This is part of the "guts" within the smokebox, before it's fastened to the front end of the boiler shell. The coils of tubing are the superheater, 2 coils wound one within the other connected in parallel to allow free flow, both of equal length, the larger one has fewer turns. They connect to a block seen at the left which feeds steam into the throttle valve which is not shown. The long curved tube is the steam line which feeds the "blower" nozzle, controlled by manual valve from the cab of the engine.


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

Nice work! Please keep the pictures coming. I build in Ga1, but I'm interested in the details of any live steam project. Never know when a good idea will pop up that I can use. 
Thanks 
Mike McCormack 
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

With that large superheater coil in place, how do you get at the flue tubes to clean them out periodically?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you for posting this--it's extremely interesting although I'll never build anything like that


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Posted By llynrice on 19 Dec 2009 05:18 PM 
With that large superheater coil in place, how do you get at the flue tubes to clean them out periodically? 
Very good question! I don't! Oversight, fog-headed when studying the benefits of superheating, first live steam experience ever, no fore-thoughts of dirty flues. So far, using only propane, they are still fairly clean.

Actually, I am right now doing a quick dis-assembly job, after having discovered that pressure at the cylinders is averaging about 60psi with boiler >100. I don't think the superheater scheme is responsible for that much pressure drop. There may be a small cross-section in one of the many fittings involved, OR, I used too-small piping from the dome. If I remove the superheat coils and find improved cyl. pressure, I may leave them out, if performance overall is acceptable.

Thanks for asking! jinn


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

jinn, great project, can't wait to see more


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 19 Dec 2009 07:30 PM 
Thank you for posting this--it's extremely interesting although I'll never build anything like that

I thought I never would either! Originally, considered 3/4 inch scale, if any, and then realized if one builds a live steamer at ALL, it should be sufficiently large to ride on tracks at ground level, allow the driver to sit on the tender easily, not have to elevate everything.

So, started out with 1-1/2" scale. Cumbersome to move about, heavy, in the way when stored in the shop and something else requires attention.

Would I change my mind? Yup! I REALLY like 3" scale............

jinn


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

Yep I think you will find that all that extra tubbing is causing other problems too. I must say I love the way it looks! A 3/8 tube only has so much flow. In the end it would cause a pressure drop. Also a flow problem witch can cause loss of power. A true super heater tube would have a manifold with tubes running into the larger flues close to the hot gases. Each tube being separate running to a manifold then to the cylinders. One piece of tubbing may be defeating the purpose of having the super heater tube. The smoke box is not as hot as the steam coming out of the boiler so I would think it would start to condensate some before going to the cylinders. 

It's a good thing you are running propane!! If it were coal you would be ripping that supertubes out of there.


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## rangerjoel (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi Jinn,
I’m arriving to this thread a little late, but I must say that your posts are very impressive. I just recently have started working in 7.5 gauge and can begin to appreciate some of the challenges that are particular to the larger scales. I enjoyed your how-to post and the idea of using a gas cylinder for a boiler. If I ever do something like that, I will head your advice and use one that contains an inert gas! I may never build a live steam loco like yours but I sure am enjoying watching you do it!
Joel


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

Maybe someone is building freightcars from scratch, so I'll swing away from machining stuff. Good or bad, orthodox or not, here's a quick squint at the TENDER.

Here it is standing at the far end of part of my "layout", which is located in a pasture east of my shop, across the road from our house. Plenty of room for future rail expansion!













A bit closer view, same location.











I figgered a frame of some kind was needed, like a skeleton, got some (scrounging again!) 1"X1" square steel tubing for free from a Sears store throwing out old display racks. Tried out the MIG welder I had bought which someone returned, never did that kind of welding before, so early "miscreation" would hopefully be hidden by the outer skin. MIG welding RULZ, as it turns out!











The frame already mounted on the six-wheeled trucks, which I unfortunately (or maybe, fortunately) have no detail pics of.











The outer skin nearly finished. Prototype of course had zillions of rivets visible, which I simulated using pop rivets (hate those damn things!). Every so often I used a teeny-tiny button head socket cap screw, I think 2-56 size, to fasten the skin to the frame. They are pretty hard to discern, came out lookin' good!











The copper sheet water tank was bent into shape using appropriately long 2X4s clamping the sheet between them in my bench vise, then slowly bending the copper over the wood. This gave a natural radius inside, which corresponded to the round edge of the 2X4. I have no press brake, or any other sheet-metal working machinery. The front top of the tank slopes downward toward it's front, to conform to the shape of the tender's coal bunker. The 05-A locomotives were all originally coal-fired, but 5632 was later converted to oil, which required her tender to be changed out appropriately. I chose to go with the original look.











Here's a view with the side panel removed, tank visible, hose lying there was used to fill up, final-check for leaks. The seams of the tank were soldered by hand using propane torch. Tank material was 0.042" thick copper sheet, but even so, while working with it, I realized it would "bulge & bend" with water sloshing around in it, so added stiffeners as I went along, right-angled strips of copper soldered to the insides, following the longer dimensions.












The final act! Upside-down, the trucks pivot around mounted with big ball bearings, called-out for Ford pickup trucks, '70s models rear axle bearings, happened to have 2 in my "junk" stock, so, well, I thought, overkill, but why not? They were "free". I later found the scheme was not "giving" enough, those six-wheelers spanned a pretty long stretch of rail, and tended to derail on unflat sections of track, so a retrofit was done in which the center shafts which enter the bearings' IDs were split, and crossed with 3/8-inch pins, which allow the trucks to "rock" up and down about their centers, sort of like U-joints. That solved the problem! I have learned something every step of the way building this project, and many of the lessons should have been unnecessary, so much was I in a hurry to see results.

The trucks are fitted with equalized brakes operated by an air cylinder for each one, not yet installed in the pic, sorry, I have no shots of the brake system. If someone really wants to see it, please let me know!

Thanks fer lookin'! jinn


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I just came across this old thread. Did this project ever get finished? @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 19 Mar 2012 04:51 AM 
I just came across this old thread. Did this project ever get finished? @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 
Mike,

Soon after he posted about machining his drivers, I was staying in contact offline. Then all of a sudden in early 2010, he seemed to drop off the planet. I could never get in contact with him again. His last activity on MLS was 1/29/2010. He did beautiful work, that's for sure!


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