# Chinese Live Steam



## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

www.livesteaming.com/uploads/video/xingyangclip03.wmv


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

WOOO HOOO. the FRA and OSHA would have fits over that one... Neat "Flying switch" though!


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

The only thing that I see wrong is where the brakeman is riding. The switch job is rather clever.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the Flying Switch maneuver is illegal.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

In the 1950s, we would "hop" the trains that were going to the foundrys and while the trains were underway we would run along top of box cars and jump into the cars carring the sand. When the train crews talked to us they said that it probably was not a good idea for us to play like that. So --- they would invite us to meet the trains when they were stopped and then invite us to ride in the caboose. No one ever got hurt bad; however, I do have a scar over my left eye which is the result of tripping on a tie and hitting my head on a box car ladder. All of which is part of why I enjoy small scale live steam today.

In the 1950s the train crews did many things that OSHA would not approve today. Of course, no one thought these were things they should not be doing. It was just the way it was. 

Thanks for posting the video. It is an excellant example of a switch engine at work. Scenes like that shown were common at one time here in the US.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

I find the little drive wheels on the locomotive interesting to watch.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I did a flying switch maneuver with an FRA ins[pector in the engine. His only response was "cool". It could be that the railroads don't permit it.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

The Chinese C2 locos and the Russian PT-4 design they are based on are facinating engines. The PT-4 were a replacement for the lightweight 0-6-0 86/Kolomna class which was a Russian military loco. Most all of these are 30 "inch*" gauge engines, excluding the oddball 600cm gauge loco. 

Many of the PT-4s were actually built outside of the USSR as reparations/East bloc. Builders included a consortium of three companies in Finland, Skoda in CZ, MAVAG in Hungary, Fablok in Poland and a order with the North British Locomotive Company of Glasgow, Scotland that was killed due to not being able to secure a line of credit for the the order (over one thousand) and the turn Russia was taking by the late 1940s. 

Some of the PT-4s that were built in and outside of Russia ended up in China. They used this design for the basis of the C2, along with the similar but larger Polish Px48 design used by a few East Bloc countries, which also saw examples sent to China, for the C4. The Px48s were reportedly diverted from Jugoslavia to China when Tito fell out of favor with Mother Russia and Davenport/Porter filled their needs. 

I think it is funny that in the narrow gauge modelling world (Especially On30) we see models of single to small (5-20 in total number) classes of locomotives, but we have yet to see anything commercial from the C2/4, PT-4 or Px48 design, when the combination of these classes are estimated to be over 6000 in number! 

I remember Zubi mentioning at one time that he was going to comission a Px48 from someone, but I have not heard anything more. 

_* "inch" as remember that there was not a true standard inch until the late 1950s, so 30 "inch" gauge range from 750mm to 785mm depending on the country _


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

I belive there is one of these now on the Festiniog Raiway but it will need a lot of alteration before it will fit the FR loading gauge. 
David Bailey


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett, 

Thanks for the picture of the various "inches". Several years ago I puzzled over why the "inch" was now equal to exactly 25.4 mm when I seemed to remember from my youth, when no one here used metric measurements (except in science and medicine), that there were a lot more digits to the right of the decimal point. Then an older friend from Holland advised me that the 25.4 mm conversion factor was a relatively recent convention. 

Thanks for the detail, too, about the C2 and PT-4 locos. There is so much to be learned about past and present railroading worldwide. 

Steve


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Love it. May we please have more sir? And please do not whack me with that soup spoon! 
N


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I think the FR's C2 is pretty rough. I would also love to know if it is 760 or 600 mm gauge. 

There are a few Px48s kicking around, a company called Interlok in Poland is rebuilding them: 

http://www.interlok.info/Px48.htm 

I noticed a comment on their page about some meter gauge conversions, apparently years ago there were some in the former DDR (East Germany) at one time that were failures for some reason. More reading for me I guess? 

And here is a photo of a Pt-4, preserved in Latvia, to show the family tree to the development of the Chinese C2 locos: 

http://www.banitis.lv/images/galerija/ritosais_001.jpg 

There is also one in Lithuania, built by Skoda (CZ) at the Anyksciai railway museum: 

http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/lithuania01.htm 

This museum also has what has to be one of my favorite European wood depots of all time: 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3225/3136499056_68c3240ea1_o.jpg 

BTW, C2 production supposedly ended in China in 1988..... 

Anyhow, a large scale version of either of these two locos or the Px48 in Electric or Live Steam would be a nice addition.....especailly watching those tiny drivers working!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

EDIT: Wrong Px48 link above (well, not the one I wanted) more Px48 and other prototype steam for sale here: 

http://www.interlok.info/indexe.htm


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Railroads have done the flying switch moves for years. If it's illegal its a RR rule. FRA and OSA have no say in the matter. BTW OSA has no jurisdiction over the RR as FRA is the governing body. Later RJD


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone know where to find a drawing of these engines?


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

The book "East European Narrow Gauge" by Keith Chester (ISBN 1-873150-04-0), published by Locomotives International (see URL http://www.locomotivesinternational.co.uk/books/index.shtml) has some crude erecting drawings of PT-4's, C2, C4 and other East Bloc designs, plus lots of b&w photos. The drawings look to be from builders' catalogs and don't have much detail beyond dimensions and overall proportions, but it's a start. 

Hope that helps.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Update and correction: 

I was wrong about the FR's C2 being in rough shape. I rememberd someone getting a non UK loco at one of the UK narrow gauge preservation lines. What you get when you ass-ume. 

Anyhow, they are working on the loco and it is in good shape, operational before being sent to the UK. 

http://www.c2project.org/


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll agree with some of the comments about the fits OSHA & the FRA here in the US would have about pulling a move like that








- still, that has to be *the slickest *







*"run-around" maneuver I've ever seen!*









That little Chinese 0-8-0 is a *sweet little lokie!*







(That engine has to have the *smallest drive wheels *







I've seen on any engine other than a Shay!). Would make a *great model subject*







, either as live-steam or a "sparky"!









By the way - anyone notice the *strong resemblance of those side-dump cars to the Bachmann wooden side-dump cars*







Only real difference seems to be that the tip bodies are steel instead of wood, & it appears as though they may have spoked wheels as well.









Tom


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

why not, both are made in China!!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have some photos that I took of what I thought was a very rotten Western Wheel Scraper car (the prototype for the Bachmann side tip car), all the wood gone and the metal not too far along. 

Imagine my surprise when I found it was made by Orenstein & Koppel! 

Skips are skips..... I liked the manual braking.


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## Martin Goller (Feb 12, 2008)

Garrett,

The comments on the German relation: 

In the first instance, 17 Px48s were built for 1000mm gauge to replace _former_ German-origin narrow gauge engines in the Warsaw area and in Gryfice-Koszalin

After the opening and fall of the border, the narrow gauge engines bekame interesting for the preserved operations in the former West-Germany. 
Two Px48 were overhauled and visually turned into "German" locomotives operating on 1000mm. The most obvious change is the replacement of the typical large Polish headlights with the small German ones. 
They operated at engines V and VI on the Brohtalbahn between 1990 and 2001. Apparently the boilers on both require major work, and they are inoperable at this point. 

http://www.vulkan-express.de/english.htm

Two more were gauged for 750mm for the "Oechsle" narrow gauge line and also "Germanized". One engine was given the number 99 1773 (not to be confused with the German class 2-10-2T 99 1773-3)

Here a few photos of the operation in 1985

http://home.bawue.de/~willam/Bilder_Vorbild_Oechsle.htm

you need to scroll about half-way down the page.

Aparently those engines aren't on the Oechsle anymore either (German only). 
http://das-oechsle.de/fahrzeugliste

I hope this helps. 

Last but not least, you can built a card stock model of a Px48 using this kit:
http://www.moduni.de/product_info.php/cPath/30000000/products_id/2350730

But that's in the wrong forum....

Best regards, 

Martin


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I was remembering some that were older in some info I had at the house and missed the modern reference. 

It appears that the JHMD in the Czech Republic have a Px48 now too.


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## Agra (Jan 15, 2008)

Bill,
I'd like to thank you for linking to the video, it was really interesting to watch. I've seen photos of that chinese brick works RR before, but never video clips. I liked the side dump cars, have been a little uncertain as to whether I would like to make some or not. The video convinced me that I must! I am looking forward to making the "hinge posts" etc. (don't know what they're called) that suspend the tub high up above the frames, nice little pattern making exercise. Will be casting all the beefier parts in brass, with straps etc. made from steel strip. (I'm talking in future tense, new melting furnace being designed, will not be ready before summer).



Thanks,
André,

Norway


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