# Aristo's got a screw loose.....Or two



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

As I've been laying out track for planning, I've been opening boxes of track and finding some loose screws in the bottom. At first I just thought they were extra thrown in by mistake as the top several pieces are always fine. They are the tie screws in the bottom side. Then I noticed one fell into my had as I carried the track so I turned it over and found some missing and some very loose. So I started checking all sections and found it on just about all of the 5 foot pieces and very little on curved. Since I'm net missing probably 30 screws, I'll call Monday, but it made me think about it as I was tightening them all down. Does anyone even bother to tighten theirs? Do they work loose later with heat expansion and vibration? Should I put a dab of lock tight or paint on each one? What's y'all's thoughts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Whoo... a controversial issue. 

Many people remove all the screws swearing it helps. 

It doesn't... 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

With their stainless steel track, the joiner screws are insde a tie in red wax. I lost some laying the track on the ground while checking true geometry of sectional track. Got warm and dropped out! 
The ties screws? Never had a problem really, I can't see soft plastic influencing the rails as they expand and contract. Once the track is laid and you used them so you could tug on the ties as you pulled the rails together, they've served their purpose. 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I pull them all out. Lets my track flex more in the heat .

JJ


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

It helps IF you have the ties screwed down to the roadbed. (remove the screws that hold the rail to them) then the rail can flex with exspantion joints. 
It does work in this application.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 29 Sep 2012 10:54 PM 
With their stainless steel track, the joiner screws are insde a tie in red wax. I lost some laying the track on the ground while checking true geometry of sectional track. Got warm and dropped out! 
The ties screws? Never had a problem really, I can't see soft plastic influencing the rails as they expand and contract. Once the track is laid and you used them so you could tug on the ties as you pulled the rails together, they've served their purpose. 

John 

The ones I'm talking about are not the joiner ones in the wax, but the ones with the slight head that attach the ties to the rail and mount from the bottom.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

For the most part I leave the screws in. I do have a long straight section about 40' long that is exposed to alot of summer sun most of the day so it gets hot so I put a expansion track piece in the middle of it and removed the screws you are talking about so the track can slide if needed. I also bent up a few 5' straights to curves and had to remove those screws to do that. 
You don't need the screws the ties hold the rail pretty well and once you have it all connected you will be fine.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Mickey, 
For somebody upset when responders didn't read every word.... 

"The ties screws? Never had a problem really, I can't see soft plastic influencing the rails as they expand and contract. Once the track is laid and you used them so you could tug on the ties as you pulled the rails together, they've served their purpose. 

John 


The ones I'm talking about are not the joiner ones in the wax, but the ones with the slight head that attach the ties to the rail and mount from the bottom. 

See? If you read the second half of the paragraph..... maybe now you'll give us old timers a break! ha ha 

John


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Why are these screws even needed? 

I don't own any Aristo track but none of the manufacturers I have track from uses screws to hold the rail to the tie strip. 
And when I assemble my own track using rail and tie strips, I sure don't use any screws to fasten the two. 

Knut


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut 
I think its from the beginning of sectional track in the hobby. Many issues don't come up when the hobby first started. Time and change. 
And when we first started in the hobby. Back then I asked at my local hobby store dealer ,,,where we hung out before internet. (remember hobby shops?)


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

They're not needed. I'm with JJ. I remove them so the rail can expand & contract without pulling on the ties.
Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The screws are need for the same reason as the prototype railroads use rail anchors. 

expansion and contraction are laws of physics which are not suspended for G scale. 

Greg


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Sep 2012 09:30 AM 
The screws are need for the same reason as the prototype railroads use rail anchors. 

expansion and contraction are laws of physics which are not suspended for G scale. 

Greg 

Excuse me, but proto rails are not screwed to the ties. They use spikes. If you look at a spike and tie plate, the rail can move fore and aft while the spikeand tie plate holds the rail from pulling up.Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

READ my post.... *"rail anchors"*.... 










rail anchors secure the rails to the ties... just as the aristo screws secure the rails to the ties.

(I would not be real eager to contradict someone without reading and understanding the subject first)

and in case it's still confusing, please consider what they do, not how these look vs. the Aristo screws (google is your friend)

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

What part of rail anchoring do you not understand. As I have said for many a post here the purpose of the screw serves to anchor the Rail. Later RJD


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Sep 2012 09:49 AM 
READ my post.... *"rail anchors"*.... 










rail anchors secure the rails to the ties... just as the aristo screws secure the rails to the ties.

(I would not be real eager to contradict someone without reading and understanding the subject first)

and in case it's still confusing, please consider what they do, not how these look vs. the Aristo screws (google is your friend)

Greg 





Greg,
I should probably know better than to argue with you or RJ. If you look at the photo you posted, the rail can still expand/contract and move fore and aft. 
It uses pressure to hold the rail fore and aft. If the pressure thresh hold is exceeded, the rail will expand/contract without pulling up the tie.
If the rail was bolted directly to the tie, it would rip the bolt out of the tie when temperatures changed enough, or pull up the tie.
We have the same thing in our 45mm track, although plastic.

The LGB track I have has no screws, and works fine as delivered.
RALPH


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Why is that there seems to be so many personal attacks? You post a fairly straight forward question or whatever and the next thing you know somebody is jumping back.

Case in point:
John, I did read your whole post but was just making sure everyone was clear which screws I was referring to since your post started by talking about the wax ones. Yet you jump back with a snip it. 

And this not the only example or thread.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, the rail anchor locks the tie to the rail... the idea is that to control expansion and contraction and to spread it EVENLY by putting it into the ties and let each tie take up it's part. 

As soon as you release the rail in real life or our model railroads you fail. Why? Because the majority of the people in the hobby ASSUME that the friction of the rail in the ties is EQUAL. 

It is not. Nothing is perfect in the world. So you get kinks from excess rail at some spots and gaps in others. In real railroads and model ones. 

Real railroads don't need anchors everywhere, as in the model world. The Aristo screws are not per tie either. 

Also, you need to check your LGB track. The LGB joiners lock into the tie strips and the rails do NOT slide freely. 

You won't "win" this one because it just isn't so. 

On the surface, letting our rails slide SEEMS to be a good idea, but in practice, it does not really help anything. Looking deeper at what is really going on, it's just like the prototype. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Greg,
It's always about winning with you, not me.
My LGB rail does move within the tie. The rail joiners limit movement, but do not eliminate movement.

I removed the screws from my aluminum track because the expansion was buckling the plastic ties.
The problem went away after I removed the screws.
So you do what ever you wish. I know what works here.

Your definition of "locked" and my definition of "locked" are not one and the same.
RALPH


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Sep 2012 06:43 PM 

Also, you need to check your LGB track. The LGB joiners lock into the tie strips and the rails do NOT slide freely. 


Regards, Greg You can say that one again. I've tried to pull those LGB joiners out of their track and it is not an easy job. The first time I did it I thought I would destroy the switch that I was working on. I wanted to use rail clamps instead so I could remove the switch (for maintenance) if I had to. I can certainly agree that those joiners LOCK the rail to the tie strips.
Bob


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

Im not sure i want to jump in this thread but for the sake of the OP .... Everything works differently for each individual, however I will say. I have some old pieces of aristo track that had the old phillips head screw for rail joiners that have seen there days of sun and weather. The screws where loose and missing on some that hold the rails to the ties. I was shocked to see the amount of side to side play in the rails. They would almost rock in the ties. Causing them to go out of gauge. So i tighten and replaced these screw. 

So for that reason i would leave them in. Maybe this is because my track is so worn out but i never tried checking a new piece. Also i see no reason to remove them. I can see on a strait track with an expansion joint helping but in curves , not sure its any help. The rails want to push outward on the curves and move the ties side to side. Not front and back. 
The Roundhouse RnR


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## steamlogger (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been having problems running my Live Steam EBT #12 on tracks with Aristo Craft track. The drivers fall between the rails. This engine weighs about 30 pounds and has blind drivers on the second and third axles. I have observed that the rails had a lot of side to side play in the ties. 
In talking to others I believe that this is due to the screws not being in place or in how the track has been cut causing longer distances between the screws. 

To keep the track in gauge I put short sections of 1/16" brass rod between the spike detail and the foot of the rail.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was trying to keep the discussion from broadening out, but yes, the "spikes" on aristo track do nothing to locate the rails... they normally do not touch at all. 

Gage is held by the screws. Remove the screws and besides what I have been discussing you have an additional problem of poor track gage. 

If you have rolling stock with "toy train" profile wheels, maybe things will be fine... more true to scale locos will have thinner treads, and gage will matter more. 

Moreover, heavy locos can actually "roll the rail over" on it's side if all screws are removed... 

Back to my original point.. don't do it. 

Greg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

We have about 4000 of track installed and except for the turnouts no screws.

The Aristo 8' stainless rail does not have screw holes so practicaly speaking screws are not an option.

The Aristo European ties do a much better job of keeping the rail in place than their USA ties. The new Bachmann ties do an even better top for this purpose.

My only problem area is where I commonly roll wellbarrows over the track. Had to install some extra shims to hold the rail in place in that area.

Stan


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

First year with screws had all kinds of problems, next year took all the screws out and have not a problem since.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I built two railroads using Aristo's 332 flex with no screws. No problems on either of them relative to track gauge. Neither of them lasted more than 2 years before they were torn up (the track from the first was used on the second), so I can't speak firsthand to longevity. I know guys out here who use Aristo's flex track and things seem to run okay on their lines. I would presume they're not using screws from the bottom, since they'd have to drill and tap the rail to do so. That's not something I've read about people doing, so my guess would be not--especially the guys using stainless. That having been said, I've also had one experience with Aristo's sectional track where the gauge was wide (even with screws), and I had a locomotive fall between the rails on a curve. The question is, what role do the screws really play in that? 

Just for fun, I took a micrometer to my Aristo track (now on its 3rd life on my indoor shelf railroad). Indoors, climate-controlled workshop, flex track with no screws holding the rail in place, natural state (i.e., measured without any pressure one way or the other; just what it is sitting there) I measured the gauge at 1.779". That's within NMRA tolerances, though wider than "target" by .007". If I really pull the rails apart at the railhead, the widest I measure is 1.803". I took a measurement on a switch where there was a screw, the gauge was 1.774, and when I applied the same pressure to try to roll the rails outward, I got 1.805". _Unscientific_ conclusion; the screws do serve to keep the rails closer to "gauge," but do little (if anything) to inhibit the rail's ability to roll over under a heavy load. Again, this was inside, in my workshop. Take that same track, bask it in the sun for an afternoon and let the rails radiate all that heat into the plastic ties, softening them up, and you may get different results. 

My suggestion--if it makes you feel good, tighten them as you install the track. Put the track in the ground and run your trains. If it doesn't give you any issues, great. Consider life to be good. If you ever notice you've got areas where the gauge may be wide, check the screws. If you're having troubles and they're tight, remove them and see if it makes a difference. If you're having troubles where they're loose or fallen out, tighten them and see if it makes a difference. At the same time, know that plenty of folks don't worry about the screws (or even have the ability to use them since they're using flex track) and have had pleasing results. 

Greg, I'm confused by your statement: "As soon as you release the rail in real life or our model railroads you fail. " That--to me--implies that sectional track has a distinct operational advantage over flex track or hand-laid track. I have yet to see any tangible evidence of that. Lots of hand-laid and flex-track railroads operating very smoothly in all environments. I can't imagine that's what you're implying because you, too, use flex track if I recall. So what am I misinterpreting? 

Rob, I'm with you on the EBT mike. I had it at a steam-up earlier this year which had some old, soft ties nearing the end of their useful life. I spread the gauge in many places where lighter locos freely ran. Very prototypical, mind you, but frustrating in terms of getting a good run in. (Alas, likewise very prototypical.) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hand laid track has spikes last time I checked, which will provide some friction to the rail. In my short 10 years of experience, I've not only read every post on this site, but several others, besides getting hundreds of emails. 

In general, most people wind up with kinks and gaps when they believe that the friction (or lack thereof) between the ties/spikes and the rails helps things... because AGAIN that theory DEPENDS on having equal friction everywhere, so that the effects of expansion and contraction are distributed evenly. 

The effects are not distributed evenly and that's why it does not work in general. Now there are always exceptions, and also people who live in a climate where anything will work. 

My point is that in this scale, the actual laws of physics scale to our rails and ties, and thus it should be no surprise that prototype practice gives the best results in most cases. 

Greg 

(and no, I don't use Aristo flex track, I like stuff that keeps gage)


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Actually, spikes on hand-laid large scale track provide the exact same purpose they do on the prototype--they hold the rail in gauge--they _do not_ secure it down to the ties. Sure, there's _some_ friction, depending on how tightly the rail is spiked, but the spikes invariably pull out as the rail expands and contracts--usually within the first season, and in some cases, within the first month--and there goes your friction. I've got sections of hand-spiked track on my railroad--it's an annual spring chore to push the spikes in. It doesn't take them long at all to push out--sometimes as much as 1/8" in a month's time. Read David Otteridge's article in the current GR on his experiences with hand-laid track, and his solution of using screws. It's a universal problem with hand-laid track, and there's lots of discussion as to whether certain kinds of wood are better at holding spikes than others, as well as spike size and shape. The only sure-fire way to keep spikes from pulling out is to bend them over underneath the ties. And even then, that just keeps them from pulling out. That doesn't mean the rail doesn't expand and deform the spike head such that it can slide fairly easily within the spikes. Heck, even my dad's hand-laid stuff that's actually held in place with staples from underneath sits loose enough in the ties to where the rails can move relative to the ties. That's every bit by design. 

Flex track is no different. Different brands of tie strips fit tighter than others on the rails, but in all cases, the rails do slide fairly freely within the tie strip--certainly when it comes to the forces involved with thermal expansion. Even the Llagas Creek tie strips--which were so tight on the rails I had to thread on with soapy water or WD-40 two at a time--handled thermal expansion without issue. The track floated in the ballast and stayed pretty solid all year long. In addition to the 250' of hand-laid track on my dad's line, he's got 750' of flex track, using either LGB or Kalamazoo (now Hartland) tie strips. The rail sits very loosely in both these ties, but the flex track's been in place since 1985 with no gaps or kinks. (He uses fishplates a la the prototype, or more recently rail clamps.) Yes, I get gaps on my current railroad due to thermal expansion and contraction. I use slide-on rail joiners, not clamps. As the rail expands and contracts within those joints, it opens up gaps into which dirt splashes. As dirt fills in, the rail can't "close the gap" when it re-expands thus pushes farther out. Part of my Spring maintenance is going through and clearing the rail joiners that are too far apart. A little compressed air and voila! You're done. If I didn't want to deal with that, I'd simply use rail clamps and completely float my track. But since my ties are secured to a sub-roadbed (loosely, mind you, but secured none-the-less), I want my rails to be able to move relative to the ties as things move around. 

I get where you're going, but "rail creep" is one area where the prototype world has an issue that we don't in the garden. We're not dealing with ten-thousand tons' worth of train bearing down on the rails causing things to move. Even with the trains you run, the physical mass just isn't there. Holding the track in gauge is one thing, and if you think screwing the rails to the ties gives you an advantage here, go for it. I won't argue that aspect. But as a means for mitigating thermal expansion? You've yet to provide any specific example to support your claim. Plenty of evidence to the contrary--thousands of railroads using flex- and hand-laid track operating flawlessly, some for decades on end. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Securing the rails to the ties helps distribute the forces evenly, from the rails to the ties to the ballast, just like the 1:1. 

Aristo track (sectional) really needs the screws to keep the gauge because the "spikes" don'f fit closely to the rail, unlike every other brand I have seen. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Securing the rails to the ties helps distribute the forces evenly, from the rails to the ties to the ballast, just like the 1:1. 
That's your claim. Where's the evidence to back it up? Demonstrate to me that its a practical advantage in the garden railroad setting, or more to your wording, to not do so would be a "fail." Lots of members here run flex track without issue. If you've read "every post on this site," you'd know we're doing so quite successfully, thank you, and have been doing so for a very, very long time. 

Aristo track (sectional) really needs the screws to keep the gauge because the "spikes" don'f fit closely to the rail 
We're all in agreement that Aristo's tie strips are loose on the rails, and that has the potential to lead to gauge issues if conditions are right. What's at issue (hence the OP's question) is whether the screws actually do anything to mitigate this. I agree with you on this point, at least so far as saying it can't make the gauge any worse. But then Trains' experience seems to indicate that it indeed _can_, so how muddy would you like the water? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Seriously Kevin are you having a problem? Why do you question what the railroads have done for years? 

What evidence? Over 100 years of railroads!!! Are you kidding? Don't ask me, ask people in the industry. 

Kevin, when you get 1,000 feet of Aristo rail and run a bunch of trains longer than my wingspan, then you can ask where is my evidence. Until you have experience, you should listen to those who do. 

There are ALWAYS exceptions, sure. There are people who have brass track that never oxidizes. There are people with Aristo consolidations that run perfectly. There are people who have never had gauge issues with Aristo track with the screws removed from sectional track. 

I know you always like to counter almost everything, especially from me, but you really got to get a grip and try an argument from a more rational base of reasoning. 

I'm quitting this thread... I know where this is leading, endless lectures and tons of verbiage vainly defending the position. 

Greg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg

I am siding with Kevin on this one. You are clearly correct that in the prototype the weight of the cars requires a lot of extra effort to keep the track in gauge. The physics however does not translate to our scales.

In Large Scale there are a lot of us who use flex rail which has no provision for screw holes and we function just fine. If this was a real problem then the use of this type of rail simply would not work.

We have a lot more then 1000ft of track on our railroad and often run 20+ car trains (mid train helper or rear end helper) in 1:20.3. over long runs. A nearby 1:29 layout runs 50 car trains also on very long runs and also uses flex rail with no screws.

The below video shows this on what turned out to be 5% grade on 9 ft sections of Brass rail with no screws. (This section of the railroad was reciently upgraded to stainless and the grade reduced to 2%.)

If you find that screws help on your railroad, great no problem. But your experience does not generalize.

Stan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, it's clear you're not understanding my points. Must be all that "tons of verbiage vainly defending the position" that's getting in the way. So here's a very simple question: 

What issues have you had on your garden railroad with your track *that are not gauge-related* which have been soundly mitigated solely by having the ties anchored to the rails by screws? 

And a second part; why--based on that experience--do you feel it mandatory for all garden railroaders to similarly anchor their rail to the ties lest they face what you consider to be certain failure? 

(if you want extra credit, you can explain why thousands of us have yet to face that certain failure despite decades of not anchoring our rail to the ties.) 

I'm not debating prototype practice. You and I agree on why the prototype uses anchors. I'm not debating the potential gauge issues specific to Aristo's tie strips. You and I agree on that with my measurements supporting your position. I would never doubt your personal experiences on your own railroad. I know the trains you run, and the stresses they put on the track. I'm taking exception to one very specific point you're making, and asking you to clarify that point. Obviously you've some experience that brings you to make the claim you made, I'm wondering what it is? 

Later, 

K


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Stan 
if you remember june of 2011 i ran 45cars from top to bottom and back up with no derailments.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just an observation on my part because I AM just a simple man(per Bill O'Reilly). But with my close-up observation of trackwork in the Burbank area, there are a number of sections of track where spikes are missing or are so far out of the ties (an inch or more), that I cannot see how they are holding the rail tight to the ties. Looks to me it only affects the gauge. Am I missing something here? Just curious.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

what about the screws that hold your switching rail in place.... they are loose as crap on my Aristo switches.... I thought someone said to replace them with larger screws once???


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

I have tons of aristo sectional track. Per my comment above, I believe that the rocking and play is solved to a degree once the track is all connected wether it be with rail clamps or whatever. I have some track that also has the fake spikes broken off and pulled away from the track and still holds enough gauge to have never gave me a problem. This is due to ONE its not flex so its very stiff. TWO its all connected and secured from one piece to the next. 

The over all idea basically is that, it makes it alot harder to move around and wiggle once its all fasten . I tested this with an 8 ft diameter piece of track with the screws loose and once it was clipped to a couple pieces the problem went away. I think this is the answer to why it works and has worked so well for many. PLUS most trains do have very large treads with deep flanges so the poor gauge is hardly noticed versus someone with an Accucraft. 

My biggest concern was that when an engine went into a corner and the rail would tip/roll over it would be making poor contact with the rail and start wearing grooves in the wheels of my engines from the corner of the rail digging in. 

Lastly this is not dig to anyone in particular. However it seems that some of us are so good at what we do, that when we make a statement or answer to a post we get offened when someone else has a different opinion. Sometimes people are just plain wrong. On this subject greg had it right the first time. This is a very debated topic and deserves to hear everyones opinions and experiences. Just my two cents. The Roundhouse RnR


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

I sorta left out my worries went away once the track was connected in place. No more rocking or movement of the rail head.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have had Aristo wide radius (10' diameter) curves on my layout here in Virginia for 19 years. I laid them down as they came out of the box. I haven't had any problems. I'm wondering if they have changed the tie strips that they use over the years. Some of the previous discussion in this thread has indicated that the spikes don't touch the rail and the rail is held in place by the screws in question. Mine have a plastic tab that extends from the tie to cover the foot of the rail, extending to the web (?). It looks very solid and I cannot move the rail after 19 years. The heaviest engine I run is a USAtrains GG1. I haven"t weighed it, but I would guess that it is in excess of 30 pounds.

Chuck


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 02 Oct 2012 01:50 PM 
Just an observation on my part because I AM just a simple man(per Bill O'Reilly). But with my close-up observation of trackwork in the Burbank area, there are a number of sections of track where spikes are missing or are so far out of the ties (an inch or more), that I cannot see how they are holding the rail tight to the ties. Looks to me it only affects the gauge. Am I missing something here? Just curious. 
Gary,
I was told by MOW that spikes exist for one purpose; to hold the rail in gauge. Spikes pop up all the time, and should be hit back down, but MOW crews don't have the time to check every tie, all the time. When the spike heads pop up the rail is held to the tie by gravity. And then along comes a derailment. The train crew blames MOW because the spikes were loose, MOW blames the crew because they were running to hard, fast, etc that caused the derailment.








The weight of each railcar gets transferred to each axle, which then goes to the rail, then the tie, and then the ballast. Simple enough.

BTW MOW crews heat up rail to a average rail temperature when they join two pieces together in an attempt to prevent heat kinking, but it still happens when air temps get above certain degrees.

Craig


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dick413 on 02 Oct 2012 01:42 PM 
Stan 
if you remember june of 2011 i ran 45cars from top to bottom and back up with no derailments. 

Indeed you have the record for the longest train on our railroad and perhaps at Wes's as well. Perhaps the larger radius on both our railroads helps reduce the need for screws as we both float our track.

Stan


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

That plastic tab that holds the rail is no different then the old stuff. I would bet if you pulled up a piece(not that you want to ever do that) The rail would seem to have play but because its laying in the yard and suppored by many "plastic tabs " and pieces of track,It takes the wobble out of the rail. I think the main reason for the screw is to keep the ties from sliding around when you pull the track together and to provide a place for power wires. Thats a whole other topic..... why dont we ask aristocraft.... haha The Roundhouse RnR


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

The screws do help in keeping the play to a min. but what if the holes where drilled in the wrong place and not centered to the rail. Then the screws would only make it gauge worse. To many variables. The Roundhouse RnR


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 02 Oct 2012 03:02 PM 
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 02 Oct 2012 01:50 PM 
Just an observation on my part because I AM just a simple man(per Bill O'Reilly). But with my close-up observation of trackwork in the Burbank area, there are a number of sections of track where spikes are missing or are so far out of the ties (an inch or more), that I cannot see how they are holding the rail tight to the ties. Looks to me it only affects the gauge. Am I missing something here? Just curious. 
Gary,
I was told by MOW that spikes exist for one purpose; to hold the rail in gauge. Spikes pop up all the time, and should be hit back down, but MOW crews don't have the time to check every tie, all the time. When the spike heads pop up the rail is held to the tie by gravity. And then along comes a derailment. The train crew blames MOW because the spikes were loose, MOW blames the crew because they were running to hard, fast, etc that caused the derailment.








The weight of each railcar gets transferred to each axle, which then goes to the rail, then the tie, and then the ballast. Simple enough.

BTW MOW crews heat up rail to a average rail temperature when they join two pieces together in an attempt to prevent heat kinking, but it still happens when air temps get above certain degrees.

Craig 
Thanks for the info.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

There is also slop if you will in the plastic where the screw goes thru. It's not a perfect hole or a perfect material for preventing future slop. 

I agree Aristo needs to chim in, after all they designed it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Tell you what Keven and Stan. We have stated that RR have used an anchoring system to retains rail movement. As I have said before the screws holding the rail to the ties is basically the same as on the Real railroad it's called anchoring. Yes everyone may have a different issue but the basics are the same, practice the methods and it works. I have over 40 years of track maintenance experience and it gets to the point where you folks don't get it. If it wasn't for me, Greg and other would have had major track problems. They have listen and have minimal problems with there track. My track has been down for over 8 years and I do have extreme temp ranges and my track has very minimal movement. 

One also must remember that ballast is also a key to restraining rail movement. Proper shoulder ballast and full cribs makes for a very stable RR. Over time it will settle in and the track will be very stable and secure and be void of movement. Also maintenance of the RR is another key factor. You just don't put down and then forget about it. The big boys have to continually work on the track to keep from having issues. I work on my track continuously to keep it looking like a RR instead of a Hodge podge maintenance. Your RR is only as good as you maintain it. Later RJD


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

RJD, I'll ask you the same question I posed to Greg. Which problems--specifically--have you experienced with large scale track which have been mitigated by anchoring the rail to the ties? If you put two loops of track in the ground that are identical in every regard except for one loop having the rails attached to the ties and the other not, what's going to be the difference between the two loops? (Again, gauge issues notwithstanding.) 

I've been laying tracks in the garden nearly as long as you've been laying tracks through the countryside. In all those years, I've never--and I know that's a loaded word--but I've never used any technique where the rails are anchored firmly to the ties. In my opinion, I think that trackwork is pretty darned good. The hand-laid track on my dad's line has been down for more than three decades, and is every bit as sound as it was the day it was laid. (God bless creosote!) He's had flex track down for 27 years. It, too, is every bit as solid as it was the day it was laid. There's no magic bullet to how we laid the track. We used the same familiar techniques used successfully by garden railroaders across the globe. Is it "set it and forget it?" Not in the least. Do we have to add ballast here and there to replace that which has washed out? Sure. Track maintenance both in the real world and in the garden is a constant task. But in all that time--reading about, visiting and operating on garden railroads across the country and abroad--I've never encountered anyone who's said "thank goodness my rail is attached to my ties because..." So when you and Greg write that it's significantly helped your trackwork, the first question that comes to mind is "how?" What's different about your technique and why is it beneficial? If it's that clear of an advantage, by all means, let's spread the word. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.) 

Later, 

K


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok Here is something I did back in Jan of 2011. 

All my track has the screws removed.

This is how I ballasted my track

This is how I anchor it.

This allows for some flexibility

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/118918/afv/topic/Default.aspx

JJ


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin: According to your age you can not compete with me as far as laying track no matter if 1 to 1 or garden track. BTW you better go back to the basic as your experience dose not stand up. A 6 year old playing on his dads layout is not the same as an adult working on a RR in track maintenance for a living. Your Dad may have thought he was a track person but I doubt he was. Did He ever work for a RR in the track department. I Doubt it. You can read all you want in a book but experience counts. Later RJD


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Forgive me RJD, but I've been hearing that age crap all my life as a youngster growing up in the hobby. I am unamused. I was right along side my dad every step of the way, very hands-on, and learning everything I could. I helped him mill out brass bar to the shape of a rail because flex track wasn't available yet. (Fortunately it became available right at that time.) I cut and bent the spikes, drilled holes, bolted the joint bars onto the rails, glued the ties to the aluminum spline.I learned "why" as much as I learned "how." Don't tell me that experience doesn't count just because I wasn't an adult. As the father of a 6-year-old myself, I can assure you she's learning EVERYTHING I'm teaching her in the workshop. DO NOT underestimate the interest or ability of a child following their passion. They learn far more than we as adults think we teach them. Our brains at that age are far more predisposed for gathering information than they are as adults. We (humans) learn more as children than we ever learn as adults. 

In terms of experience, when we were building our first railroad, you were a young pup on the track crew yourself, learning from the experence of others on your crew. I'm not discounting your experience on the prototype that you've gained in that time, please pay me the mutual respect of not discounting mine in the hobby. I don't believe you've had the pleasure of meeting my dad, so I really don't think you have the slightest idea what his background is to make any kind of assessment of his level of knowledge of that--or any--subject. By the time we began working on our outdoor railroad (I was nine), dad had earned his Ph. D in engineering (not necessarily applicable directly to track construction, but demonstrates a strong engineering background), and had had learned model railroad track-building from _his_ father, who had been handlaying Proto:48 track for 50 years before that. Dad grew up with those O-scale trains in the attic just as I grew up with large scale in the back yard. His dad was a machinist and mechanical engineer, and learned how the prototype railroads built their track from his father, who spent _his_ life working for the B&O. So, yes, there's a history of "how the real boys do things" that's been handed down from generation to generation in our family. Is it the same as 40 years firsthand experience swinging a spike hammer? No, but I'm not laying prototype track. I'm laying model track based on the experience of those who have taught me sound model railroad track-laying practices that have stood the test of time, just as you lay prototype track based on the experience of those who have taught you.

Now, if you wouldn't mind, I asked you a question. I'd really like to hear your answer. Regardless of what you think of my experience, your experience seems to have shaped your model track building practices. I'd like to hear the benefits of anchoring rail frimly to the tie strips via screws as you see it.

Later, 

K


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm a nobody on this forum and have been monitoring this thread because I respect everybody who has posted here on this subject because most all of you at one time or another have given me great advice with problems I've encountered but I think this pissing match has gotten out of control. I recently visited a layout that has been down for quite a few years in an area of high heat in the summers and cool nights with lots of potential thermal expansion problems and the guy did something I would never do. He rail clamped his flex track together and cemented it all down SOLID [with cement] in place with nowhere for the rails to expand except on his trestles and... in spite of that his trains are still running fine and not falling off or in between the tracks. He's not running track power and has some trouble spots he needs to tweak once in a while for sure but doesn't everyone? Could this issue be another one of what works fine at your house isn't neccesarily what works fine at the next guy's house but it all still seems to work okay? 

Jus' sayin' 

Scott


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

My apologies to all for the tone of my above post, but "age discrimination" is a _very_ sore subject with me. I went to countless model train shows while growing up where I was completely blown off by "the old guys" because I was "just a kid playing with daddy's trains." Even now in my 40s, I still get defensive when someone suggests my childhood experiences aren't valid. The hackles go up and I stand my ground. I think it's a huge mistake for any of us to discount the experience of any kid who shows an interest in this hobby. You never know--their model may be the one that just beat yours in the contest. When you look at a teenager with disdain as you both walk into a clinic on weathering, keep in mind the possibility that he's the one giving the clinic. Just because someone's under 18 doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. Fortunately for me, I had local clubs who quickly took notice that I was as interested in this stuff as any of them were. They accepted me as a peer in my own right, not just the kid of a peer. My involvement with those clubs gave me the confidence to push through the ageism I continued to experience at the larger shows. One time at the local hobby shop, I asked for help finding some materials. I was getting tepid-at-best help until I pulled the micrometer out of my pocket to take a measurement. At that point, the clerk said "Okay, now I know the kind of modeler you are..." and we communicated on a much more detailed level. I've battled that attitude pretty much my whole life. I've always had to "prove myself" just because I was 30, 40 years younger than everyone else. It's utter hogwash and has no place in the hobby if we want it to continue. We need to get past this "stupid until proven smart" attitude we have towards kids. Yeah, they're kids, and are going to do "kid" things. But kids are also keenly aware of others attitudes towards them, and will readily let that shape their enthusiasm. 

When I was 14, I had the pleasure of visiting the late Jack Wheldon's railroad with my parents. Jack could have done one of two things... cater to my dad while treating me as "a kid," or treat both of us as equals. It was Jack's nature to do the latter, teaching both me and my dad how to run a live steamer, then sending me off with my own train around the line. I was hooked instantly. Had he treated me as "a kid?" The experience would have been very different, and likely quite negative. 

Next time a kid shows up at your railroad and asks about how the trains operate, what's your response going to be? 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Scott, after reading your post to this thread, I definitely think you should cease thinking of yourself as a "nobody", but rather as a contributing member to the forum just like anyone else. Well, put post, and I thank you for posting it.

Ed


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

When I started this thread, I had no idea I was starting a Hayfield and McCoys but I guess with Greg's initial note about this being controversial, I should of prepared for it. But I agree that there seems to be way too much personal attacks that seem to develop on some threads. Which is a shame. My intent was to learn not stir.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey 
At less you know your part of "the gang" on MLS now.. Don't worry ,it happens to all of us.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 06 Oct 2012 04:02 AM 
My apologies to all for the tone of my above post, but "age discrimination" is a _very_ sore subject with me. I went to countless model train shows while growing up where I was completely blown off by "the old guys" because I was "just a kid playing with daddy's trains." Even now in my 40s, I still get defensive when someone suggests my childhood experiences aren't valid. The hackles go up and I stand my ground. I think it's a huge mistake for any of us to discount the experience of any kid who shows an interest in this hobby. You never know--their model may be the one that just beat yours in the contest. When you look at a teenager with disdain as you both walk into a clinic on weathering, keep in mind the possibility that he's the one giving the clinic. Just because someone's under 18 doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. Fortunately for me, I had local clubs who quickly took notice that I was as interested in this stuff as any of them were. They accepted me as a peer in my own right, not just the kid of a peer. My involvement with those clubs gave me the confidence to push through the ageism I continued to experience at the larger shows. One time at the local hobby shop, I asked for help finding some materials. I was getting tepid-at-best help until I pulled the micrometer out of my pocket to take a measurement. At that point, the clerk said "Okay, now I know the kind of modeler you are..." and we communicated on a much more detailed level. I've battled that attitude pretty much my whole life. I've always had to "prove myself" just because I was 30, 40 years younger than everyone else. It's utter hogwash and has no place in the hobby if we want it to continue. We need to get past this "stupid until proven smart" attitude we have towards kids. Yeah, they're kids, and are going to do "kid" things. But kids are also keenly aware of others attitudes towards them, and will readily let that shape their enthusiasm. 

When I was 14, I had the pleasure of visiting the late Jack Wheldon's railroad with my parents. Jack could have done one of two things... cater to my dad while treating me as "a kid," or treat both of us as equals. It was Jack's nature to do the latter, teaching both me and my dad how to run a live steamer, then sending me off with my own train around the line. I was hooked instantly. Had he treated me as "a kid?" The experience would have been very different, and likely quite negative. 

Next time a kid shows up at your railroad and asks about how the trains operate, what's your response going to be? 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. 

Later, 

K Great post Kevin! Touche!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Kevin apparently you still don't get it as in most of other reply's to topics. You may get upset because we mention your age and not really knowing what is happening. Getting defensive just shows more of your ignorance to folks who have knowledge of a topic and you can not handle that. You want to talk about upsetting , well that is what sets me off with statements like you make. As for your father it has no bearing to our discussion as I'm stating facts from real time experience both in the hobby and in the industry. As I said your dad was not a RRer and may have had thought he knew all the ins and outs. I have put my experience to work on all my RRs I built, which I started out in HO then to G scale. 

As to your question it had been answered and it seems it just goes by you. Reread the answers and you may understand. 

Just cause you father had an engineering back ground does not qualify one to be an expert in the method of track construction I think we all get tired of hearing about how your dad had this degree and did this and done that. Well he did not do RRing so get off that step. What does it really have to do with the topic anyway. Ya and you may have a degree also but it does not make you an expert on track. I dealt with a lot of folks like that on the RR and they sure showed there ignorance. As I said you can read it out of a book but put it to work in the real wold and 9 time out of 10 you will fall flat on your face. 

You want to talk about history of family RRing well I grew up in a RR family and we had over 250 year,s experience which includes track maintenance, operations and mechanical.

Yes my experience on the RR helps building my out door RR and I have proven over time that it works. For folks to state that real life RRing and track maintenance does not apply to small scale RRing think again. 

BTW Gary Touche

Later RJD


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

Talk about Ironic. This post is suppose to be about track. And its totally off track ( no pun intended).... Mickey i hope you squirreled away enough information to pass your judgment on this topic. I would get some screws and tighten them up. Obviously you know by now flex track has no screws..... but from MY experience the screws help to keep the rail in place and to keep the ties from sliding around. Its up to you. Either way your trains will 9 times out of 10 run fine expecially once the track is secured and ballasted. Good luck 
The Roundhouse RnR


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 06 Oct 2012 05:51 PM 
Well Kevin apparently you still don't get it as in most of other reply's to topics. You may get upset because we mention your age and not really knowing what is happening. Getting defensive just shows more of your ignorance to folks who have knowledge of a topic and you can not handle that. You want to talk about upsetting , well that is what sets me off with statements like you make. As for your father it has no bearing to our discussion as I'm stating facts from real time experience both in the hobby and in the industry. As I said your dad was not a RRer and may have had thought he knew all the ins and outs. I have put my experience to work on all my RRs I built, which I started out in HO then to G scale. 

As to your question it had been answered and it seems it just goes by you. Reread the answers and you may understand. 

Just cause you father had an engineering back ground does not qualify one to be an expert in the method of track construction I think we all get tired of hearing about how your dad had this degree and did this and done that. Well he did not do RRing so get off that step. What does it really have to do with the topic anyway. Ya and you may have a degree also but it does not make you an expert on track. I dealt with a lot of folks like that on the RR and they sure showed there ignorance. As I said you can read it out of a book but put it to work in the real wold and 9 time out of 10 you will fall flat on your face. 

You want to talk about history of family RRing well I grew up in a RR family and we had over 250 year,s experience which includes track maintenance, operations and mechanical.

Yes my experience on the RR helps building my out door RR and I have proven over time that it works. For folks to state that real life RRing and track maintenance does not apply to small scale RRing think again. 

BTW Gary Touche

Later RJD
RJD,

"because we mention your age" NO, you are the one bringing age into this conversation. No one else is. You have mentioned your expertise on 1:1 railroading AND your many years on full-size track maintenance many times on this board. That's appropriate. But commenting about experience and age is not appropriate in my humble opinion. This hits close to home for ME. I'm NOT a young person at age 69! But I spent an entire career in the forging and machining industry, including numerical control machining and cad software for design....45 years. During that time, I was involved with young apprentices and helped with their training AND schooling in their eight year long apprenticeships. AND you know what.......many of these young guys and women would come up with ideas on their own merit, to improve ways that we were machining some very complicated impression dies. Sometimes we "older folks" need to get off this idea that age equates to experience. We get set in our ways and are not willing to listen to other points of view. We need to "remove" the "blinders" AND WE might even learn something new. Off my rant now.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

RJD, we seem to be suffering the same linguistic disconnect which often exists between Greg and myself. I had hoped I could bridge it, but to no avail. 

I'll just say that if in your opinion I "don't get it," and if my dad supposedly doesn't know anything about laying track, we're both enjoying a tremendous amount of success in spite of that.  Maybe we're both blind squirrels who miraculously found nuts, but I'd prefer to think that the fundamentals of sound engineering practices in terms of model railroad track laying can be learned in more than one place. 

Tell you what. I'll keep writing of the techniques I've used which have proven successful for me, you keep wriitng about yours, and let's agree that success speaks for itself in both cases. Let the reader decide which techniques they'd like to use without us casting aspersions on each other. 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got trains to run. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, the answer of how track anchors and how screws from the ties to the rails function the same way has been given over and over. 

You have a habit of ignoring the information given and then claiming that you don't understand, or the answer was not given or some other distraction from the point. 

Then the person trying honestly to educate / inform then falls into the "trap" and beats himself senseless honestly and vainly giving the information once again when it's just an endless game to divert attention or not address a point you cannot dispute. 

You did this with the Aristo Consolidation measurements on the wheels and then burned yourself when the data you presented proved my point you so hotly contested. (That the data you omitted showed the Consolidation wheels out of gauge)... 

This is not a personal attack, merely an observation of why the "disconnect" keeps happening. All the evidence is here in the forum should anyone spend the time to clear away the distractions and just try to stay on the point. 

Again, the point and original topic are that the screws in the ties work in the same way as prototype rail anchors. Removing the screws and having no problems proves nothing unless you had problems with them in, and you had free floating track. 

I realize this will probably trigger another voluminous reply.... but you might consider what I'm saying... does not mean you have to cave in or agree, but this technique of claiming not to understand the point is really tiresome, and people will see through it... eventually... 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Nope, the answer of how track anchors and how screws from the ties to the rails function the same way has been given over and over. 
That was never in dispute. If you thought that's what I was asking, then I can see how we were talking at completely different levels. My question--similar to the OP's--was relative to their perceived necessity in a garden railroad setting. Given the evidence from so many who don't use them and have successfully operating railroads, what is it about your particular installation to where you find them necessary? What issue did they resolve for you? That was my one and only question to you. I wanted to know what it was about your track that was causing troubles for you operationally and how the screws/anchors resolved it. 

Removing the screws and having no problems proves nothing unless you had problems with them in... 
Well, it illustrates that you can remove the screws and have no problems (as evidenced by many others' responses), which contradicts your earlier sentiment that you must leave them in. "Don't do it," were your words early on. Here you're suggesting you _can_ remove them and potentially have no problems. That's a much softer reality than a hard "don't do it" would indicate. 

The odd thing, Greg, is that to start, we were on the same page. You said "don't do it" in terms of removing them, I said leave them in if it makes you feel good, but know that others have removed or not used them and not had issues. We were making the same recommendation, but mine was more of a grey answer than your black-and-white version. But I think I've said all I need to say on this. Success is its own spokesperson, and we all seem to be running successfully regardless of how we lay our track. Bottom line, there is no right or wrong, just what works for you. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Consolidation. At issue with that particular wheel profile is the fillet, to what degree the wheel rides on the fillet, and whether the fillet is considered part of the tread or the flange. I have my interpretation of the wheel measurements based on NMRA definitions, you have yours. You know what they say--there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.  

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As usual, you are inaccurate... start here.. (logic would dictate if* it does not help, then leave it alone*) 

I'm not going to fight you... Just had my say once I saw the familiar pattern of battle.... denial and obfuscation... Works on some people... 

Greg 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Sep 2012 09:42 PM 
Whoo... a controversial issue. 

Many people remove all the screws swearing it helps. 

It doesn't... 

Greg


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## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

The screws that hold the tie sections to the rails on Aristo-Craft Sectional Track I suspect are a reaction to a perceived problem. The perceived problem was in all likelihood the result of some degree of scientific and engineering ignorance on the part of the complaining parties. The mechanisms and processes were ill-understood and resulted in a solution that was overkill and probably unnecessary to solve the issue. Aristo-Craft has in my experience demonstrated some serious ignorance in matters scientific and engineering as the controlling parties are not schooled in either engineering or science. This evidenced by some of the decisions that have been made in the past that are well documented on all of the various large scale forums. Aristo-Craft would be well served to enter this conversation and explain the reasoning for the screws as it affects the perception of the quality and utility of a basic component of their product line.

Some respondents to this thread have pointed out the engineering, science and technology issues and noted that the rules are the same without regard to scale. The observations, comments and opinions offered by those learned in science or technology are well founded. End of story for that issue. On the other hand the anecdotal performance comments offered very well are substantive and true and should be considered for their worth and the additonal support that they offer for all practioners. No single party or group of parties is right or wrong here. Invective and insult only inflame conversations regarding technical issues. Counter ignorance with facts not rhetoric.

As a practitioner of the mathematical discipline statistics and as a scientist and technologist, I particularly resent and take umbrage with the adage " lies, damn lies and statistics." If more people understood the real utility of statistics and and quality control, many of the problems regularly argued about in this and other forums would not exist per se and the ill humor generated by invective, insult and pompous rhetoric related to the postion posturing would not exist. These forums would be much more civil places given to civil discourse.

Alexander Pope admonished that, "It is wise to remain silent and be thought the fool rather than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." An admonition that many would be wise to pursue.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NYC Buff on 07 Oct 2012 09:03 AM 
The screws that hold the tie sections to the rails on Aristo-Craft Sectional Track I suspect are a reaction to a perceived problem. The perceived problem was in all likelihood the result of some degree of scientific and engineering ignorance on the part of the complaining parties. The mechanisms and processes were ill-understood and resulted in a solution that was overkill and probably unnecessary to solve the issue. Aristo-Craft has in my experience demonstrated some serious ignorance in matters scientific and engineering as the controlling parties are not schooled in either engineering or science. This evidenced by some of the decisions that have been made in the past that are well documented on all of the various large scale forums. Aristo-Craft would be well served to enter this conversation and explain the reasoning for the screws as it affects the perception of the quality and utility of a basic component of their product line.

Some respondents to this thread have pointed out the engineering, science and technology issues and noted that the rules are the same without regard to scale. The observations, comments and opinions offered by those learned in science or technology are well founded. End of story for that issue. On the other hand the anecdotal performance comments offered very well are substantive and true and should be considered for their worth and the additonal support that they offer for all practioners. No single party or group of parties is right or wrong here. Invective and insult only inflame conversations regarding technical issues. Counter ignorance with facts not rhetoric.

As a practitioner of the mathematical discipline statistics and as a scientist and technologist, I particularly resent and take umbrage with the adage " lies, damn lies and statistics." If more people understood the real utility of statistics and and quality control, many of the problems regularly argued about in this and other forums would not exist per se and the ill humor generated by invective, insult and pompous rhetoric related to the postion posturing would not exist. These forums would be much more civil places given to civil discourse.

Alexander Pope admonished that, "It is wise to remain silent and be thought the fool rather than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." An admonition that many would be wise to pursue.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff 




I thought it was Abraham Lincoln who said that Quote.

JJ


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I'll tell you what Kevin I'll do the same kept posting what is tried and true based on experience. It's hard to teach a person that has a neg attitude such as you that is not willing to except some basic facts and learn something new. It is called the old ego trip. 

As for Gary let me say I trained a lot of young folks in the industry and also in the FRA. I was a trainer also and never down the young folks. I had years of knowledge that I passed on to the young folks ,never heard a neg response and they always wanted more info. I was always invited by RR to do seminars to help the younger folks to under stand the maintenance of and inspections of RR. Later RJD


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 07 Oct 2012 05:58 PM 


As for Gary let me say I trained a lot of young folks in the industry and also in the FRA. I was a trainer also and never down the young folks. I had years of knowledge that I passed on to the young folks ,never heard a neg response and they always wanted more info. I was always invited by RR to do seminars to help the younger folks to under stand the maintenance of and inspections of RR. Later RJD

RJD,

You need to go back and read my post to you. You missed my point ENTIRELY. You say "I had years of knowledge that I passed on to the young folks ,never heard a neg response and they always wanted more info." But how many times did YOU listen to suggestions made by the YOUNG folks? See the difference? IF YOU DON'T, then this coversation is pointless.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 07 Oct 2012 12:35 AM 
Given the evidence from so many who don't use them and have successfully operating railroads, what is it about your particular installation to where you find them necessary? What issue did they resolve for you? That was my one and only question to you. I wanted to know what it was about your track that was causing troubles for you operationally and how the screws/anchors resolved it. 
K 
Greg, 
Can you please answer this simple question? I've been wondering the whole course of this thread the same thing. All I've heard is that screws should be in place, etc. What specifically on your layout did not removing the screws do for YOUR layout, or by keeping the track as is from the factory? 
Have you removed screws at all and tested the track to compare results?
I'm curious....

And the answer "keeping the gauge" doesn't count...

Thanks!
Craig


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Posted By mickey on 06 Oct 2012 07:13 AM 
When I started this thread, I had no idea I was starting a Hayfield and McCoys but I guess with Greg's initial note about this being controversial, I should of prepared for it. But I agree that there seems to be way too much personal attacks that seem to develop on some threads. Which is a shame. My intent was to learn not stir. 

I wouldn't sweat it Mickey. You had a quandry with your track purchase and like many of us newer folks thought; "Hey, I'll ask the learned folks on MLS about this". ALL the people who responded to your question know what they're talking about from my experience and have most likely FORGOTTEN more than I will ever KNOW about large scale garden trains and the operation thereof so, good idea. [in theory] For your efforts you discovered that the screws in your track are both 'completely superfluous', or 'highly imperative' depending on THEIR experiences, from their layouts, in their areas. In my experience with questions on this forum...that's about par for the course.
I have no engineering expertise in track laying on railroads, [model or 1:1 prototypical], but if you can easily obtain or replace the missing screws...why not replace and tighten them and hedge your bets before laying it down. Can't hurt. If not, probably won't bite you in the a-- either.
The other stuff that took place on this thread is just folks taking model railroads, and maybe themselves, a bit too seriously. These guys have many years of experience so listen to what they say, I do, and ignore the other hot air. From what little I've learned about the "right way" to do garden railroads it's kind of like what they say at the end of all the Automobile commercials; "Your mileage may vary."


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

RJD, fine by me. From what I read of yours on another large scale forum relative to roadbed construction and your "preferred method," I think you'd approve just fine of mine. 

Later, 

K


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

This thread is just the reason so many good people are abandoning this site for others. There are just too many "know it alls' and "blow hards" here. There isn't an exchange of ideas here anymore, just pissing contests. MY WAY IS RIGHT AND NOTHING ELSE CAN EVEN BE SUGGESTED.
Now you can direct your yellow stream at me, I couldn't care less, I'm going out and run trains IN THE RAIN. nick jr


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By mickey on 06 Oct 2012 07:13 AM 
When I started this thread, I had no idea I was starting a Hayfield and McCoys but I guess with Greg's initial note about this being controversial, I should of prepared for it. But I agree that there seems to be way too much personal attacks that seem to develop on some threads. Which is a shame. My intent was to learn not stir. 
Do not Worry Mikey This happens all the time. I feel sorry it happened to you 

Harvest what information you need to make a decision. Then do it. Ignore the rest. 

Eventually you will get to know everybody. 

Please don't stop asking questions. Sometimes you will have wade through the BS .

On the whole there is a lot of good information  on this site and you will get a lot of good information from it's members. 

JJ


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

We do seem to have a lot of know - it - all's! Don't care what the subject is they seem to know all about it. What works for some people might not work for others.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with nick jr this thread hi jacking and pissing match is not what people want. The people here want help with their problems not your wrong and i,am right bs. Dwight or someone higher should put a stop to it .


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Okay, I think all the parting shots have been fired. 

I believe MLS is still the best place to come to with your large scale questions even if things get 'sideways' from time to time. I think everybody involved got the message. [Keeping it real as they say]. 

I'm not a moderator but suspect everyone will agree this thread...is DEAD. 

Or, as Jimmy Durante would say; "Goodnight Mrs. Calabash. Wherever you are". 

Requiescat in pace


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

srw i agree with you this thread is dead but the same people will pop up on another thread and start it all over again. This web site is like the bible to me tons of great information great people ,but there are just a few people . Have a great day and let,s all play TRAINS. Pete out


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Pull the screws as they're not needed..NO flex-track has screws as the rail has got to expand & contract.


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