# The real Orient Express



## RHMebane (Feb 9, 2008)

http://forums.mylargescale.com/memb...press-picture10994-orient-express-ticket.html

Departure Sep 25. I'll post pictures.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I am sorry but the Venice Simplon Orient Express is not the real Orient Express It is a cruise train made up of CIWLT cars most of which were never used on the real Orient express and that have largely been modified (new trucks) both inside and out and are in no way an authentic reproduction of the real O-E. The real O-E was a train that departed Paris Est towards Constantinople through Germany, Austria, Hungary and Romania . It ran into the late 70s, there were two other variants the Simplon Orient Express which left Paris Lyon to Switzerland, Italy , Yougoslavia then continued to Constantinople through Bulgaria or Athens. Then you had the Arlberg orient express which went through from Paris Est to Basle Switzerland, Austria (the Arlberg) and so on. These all wagon lits train before the war had coaches and couchette cars after the war added to their consist. The Simplon was even for quite some time through the sixties and through to the eighties a slow train full of immigrants visiting their family in Yougoslavia where it was a very slow train stopping all over the place and I remember being in a second class compartment invaded by farmers taking their products to local market in 1983. Or taking it to Venice in the early '80 and it left Paris around seven oclock PM without a dining car or even a lounge. Of course the price of the ticket was reasonable compared to the price on the VSOE which is a outrageous.


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## Johnsop (Jan 5, 2008)

Ignore mr grumpy (who posted just above)

In my view the train captures the grand urge and romance of 1st class's overnight travel and so in my book is fine to be called the orient express

You enjoy yourself and please do post the pictures


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## andybriggs (Oct 27, 2017)

In terms of realism has anyone else seen the new remake of the Agatha CHristie book by Kenneth Brannagh yet?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Ignore mr grumpy (who posted just above)"

Regrettably, posting does not allow for tone and inflection. I read it more as a wistfulness for something that has gone and cannot ever be experienced again in its original form. While in college, I rode home on the real Broadway Limited and the real Spirit of St, Louis. Had to ride coach, of course, but even the badly threadbare PRR of the mid-1960s managed to put forth a brave face on those two trains. I will never experience riding like that again and have a certain wistfulness regarding those trips. Still I enjoy riding the current Amtrak cars.

I have the same feelings about touring the real Hershey Chocolate Factory, especially now that it no longer exists. Chocolate World cannot hold a candle to the real thing, but it is now as they say "the only show in town."

Have a good and a fun trip.

Best wishes,
David Meashey


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

andybriggs said:


> In terms of realism has anyone else seen the new remake of the Agatha CHristie book by Kenneth Brannagh yet?


I will see it soon but I know already it has little or nothing to do with the real Orient Express. This picture shows it must be a strange minded props person with this film-crew:








Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

By the way since this thread hasd been revived: Mr Grumpy isn't nagging, he is knowledgeable on French railway history and just thought it would be helpful for US fans to know this and thus pass on the info. 
Just like my modeling Pennsy one half of the time makes me wish I had experienced Dave Meashy's trips on the Broadway or the Spirit of Saint Louis.
I really feel that Forums are a great opportunity for those who know, because they have been railfans for 50 odd years to pass on information to those who don't; or especially to those who are too young to know or too far away to have the litterature to know these things. No grumpyness implied and I am not a rivet counter by any means although I make models of rivetted construction equipment because I feel that they correspond to a classic era in railroading. Ask the many guests to my steam ups for the past 30 years if I am grumpy.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The current OE cruise train is trying to recreate an OE that existed only during the salad days of trans Europe luxury train travel that existed before the depression and WW2. The OE Mr Grumpy ;-) is describing is very much the train that existed in the post war years when it was really nothing more than a regional train with a glorified name plate attached. The fact that the cold war cut off the route to the "orient" and they instead redirected it to Venice says alot about what a ghost of the original train it had become.

The Simplon OE is an echo of an era long long gone. But I would love to ride it.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The real direct orient express (there were 3 different versions of it the direct orient,the Arlberg orient and the Simplon orient express) was a luxury train installed by the CIWLT in the 1880s at which time it certainly was a luxury train reserved for diplomats, businessmen and aristocrats over a whole range of administrations: the Est railway of France (with a Calais leg operating on the NORD) the German through Bade Wurtemberg and Bavaria, the Austrian railways, the Hungarian railways (there was a branch or through car going to Prag though)the Yugoslav railways, Bulgarian, through cars for the Greek and the Rumanian railways and turcish railways. As time wore on war interfeered so its operation was closed and after the war was taken up again first by an all non German itinerary (Arlberg and Simplon) and because of the conflict between the CIWLT and the DSG which had seized some CIWLT stock during the war. Also for strategic reasons. Little by little it regained its usual itinerary during the Weimar era so at that time all three existed again. I don't exactly remember at which time it was discontinued again prior to WW2. After WW2 it resumed it's operations once again and ran untill the CIWLT stopped operating trains over long distances in the '70s I beleive. It ran right through the iron curtain (As a famous early James Bond movie attests) and after the war it was no longer an all CIWLT train but included coaches from the various administrations it served. Please note that the reason for the Arlberg and Simplon variants is as I said above a post WW1 security measure and a form of boycott of the DSG.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

After seeing the latest movie version of "Murder on the Orient Express" by Kenneth Brannagh I think it is right to say that the VSOE Orient Express is much closer to the original Orient Express of the 1930's than the train put together for the movie.
If you like to see more about the Orient Express and do not like to read books you might take a look at the the Orient Express App: http://orientexpresshistory.net/.

NB: The train models shown in this App are 1 Gauge ASTER and J&M models.

Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The train in the movie was all wrong. Starting with the locomotive which was a Paris- Orléans designed for branch line service which never came close to hauling the orient. The consist was quite wrong also just using one of the brown and cream Golden Arrow pullmans, could only be incorrect. As a matter of fact the Orient as a long trip did not feature Pullman cars as they were specialised in daytime runs of less than ten hours (longest would have been the Paris-Nice train P1 and 2). And usually were used on all pullman consists. like the Etoile du Nord, the Oiseau Bleu, the P1 the Vichy Pullman and the Deauville express of short existence. All Wagon lits trains of the era between the two W.W. sported a baggage car at each end supposedly to protect the trains in case of derailments and colisions as per French gov. regulation (comparable to the ICC) dating back to consists with wooden bodied cars. And to pursue, it was filmed on a Jura line supposed to represent the Yougoslav mountains near Bulgaria (where the real Orient of wooden cars was held up by snow for a few days and actually attacked by wolves, the legend says). And the engine which pushes the snow plow around to releive the train is a liberation mikado made in the USA (or Canada) and delivered as part of the Marshal plan. So much for realisme of railroad related sets in films, and remember I was a set designer, I should know. Much more interesting document on French railways in steam days is the Train and of course Renoir's Bête Humaine, but no sleepers there at all.
As I said this is not to be grumpy but just so people on the other side of the pond know how it was; it's information.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

du-bousquetaire said:


> The train in the movie was all wrong.


You seem to comment on the Murder on the Orient Express movie from 1974 while I mentioned the movie from Kennethe Brannagh issued in 2017 (which by the way does not have a brown and cream Pullman but still is incorrect). 

Regards
Fred

And if you are interested in CIWL you might take a look at my book on CIWL carriages:
http://sncf231e.nl/ciwl-carriages-by-fredsmall/


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Sorry I wasn't aware of this 2017 movie version and will try to see it.


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## mjltuk (Jan 3, 2008)

I wouldn't bother. Its an awful film _and_ you would be horrified to see US outline loco, carriages and stations masquerading as the Orient Express.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Sounds like Shanghai express which if I remember correctly featured Marleen Deitrich and directed by Joseph Von Sternberg, supposed to happen in China but with fabulous shots of SP 4-8-2 in action and heavyweights all shot in sunny California of course.


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## mjltuk (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, I forgot to mention the very impressive trestle - presumably located some thousand miles west of any of the Orient Express routes!


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

mjltuk said:


> I wouldn't bother. Its an awful film _and_ you would be horrified to see US outline loco, carriages and stations masquerading as the Orient Express.


I agree about the film but the locomotive is the French 241A65 Mountain with smoke defelectors "upside down" and not US outline loco. You can see some of the making of the movie with this locomotive here:




Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually the real Direct orient express had a very complex history and life with constant changes of itiniraries, pending on the completion of railway networks and lines, then for political reasons, civil wars and wars. By 1977 it had all but disapeared and included only one MU type Wagon lits in its consist the rest being built up by coaches from the various administrations it served.

If this film was done with the 241 A 65 than at least that loco is bang on accurate for the French leg of the trip as they were used on the Paris- Basel part of the run right into the early '60s.


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## mjltuk (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry to spoil it for you but no such loco was used in making the film.

The whole thing was filmed in a studio outside London using specially built locos and carriages - and the trestle:

http://www.kftv.com/news/2017/10/27/murder-on-the-orient-express-filmed-in-uk-studio

Classic case of misleading titling on a youtube clip!


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## mjltuk (Jan 3, 2008)

Lots more detail here:

https://drawing425.deviantart.com/art/Murder-on-the-Orient-Express-Locomotive-Sprites-702364107

Looks like we're all wrong! The Youtube clip is of the real loco but they don't seem to have used it and instead built an approximate fantasy in the film studio.

I still say the observation car and the trestle look completely wrong for a train stuck in a snowdrift in the Balkans.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

The Real Orient Express is running in my garden:




Regards
Fred


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Would love to see photos of this trip! please do share!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Great video Fred! Cheers,


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Triple gauge track?? !!

Pray tell, what gauges?

Greg


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi everybody:
Well this evening my wife and I saw the new Murder on the Orient Express. A very good film, as far as authenticity I am perplexed, but having been a set designer of 7 films I can understand the motivation to do it the way they did. First they transfered the Balkan Alps into the Himalaya or some of the more remote parts of Canada or New Zealand , which can be understood for dramatic purposes as it does make that lonely tiny train seem more vulnerable. Then the avalanch recalls one that really happened on the old Moffat road and almost toppled one of their mallets into the devils slide! A very fascinating real life adventure to employ in cinema. The 4% or over grade is also quite far from the realities of miteleuropa. Brod at the end is actually in Yougoslavia at the time and I know from having done the Athens branch of the Orient express (almost to Bulgaria) that that part of the line follows the Save and the Danube rivers and is absolutely flat and boring land., So as a film director putting it in such a spectacular scenery makes sense, as the line is mainly quite boring scenery wise. 
Now for the train it is also quite impressive: The loco an Est mountain actually did haul for many years the Orient Express between Paris and Basle, so one can say that they did do their research well as it is an authentic loco for that train, alas not in Turkey or Bulgaria. It is fitted with a snow plow and an american style headlight (which Bulgarian engines did have), Now for the cars: Well its a pretty good replica of the Wagons lits cars used on the train except that they ride on Gresley trucks typical of the East Coast route to Scotland.
Most likely they built fake bodies and interiors and needed some chassis to put them on so they rented some old Gresley coach frames. However details such as the battery boxes under the frames are correct! What is totally fake and very American is the observation platform at the end. There again it was probably a request of the director who needed some place to have scenes away from it all.
Well happy new year to all.
And of course the trestle is totally American and there are none like it in the Balkans except on some narrow gauge lines and logging ralways. You have to understand that over here in Europe steel is cheaper than lumber.
All these show that they did do their research but the dramatic needs prompted modifications to the real thing. Also it is more convenient, especially in such restrained space as a railway car, to be able to remove a wall or side pannel even a roof pannel to take certain shots and angles which is probably why they prefered building the cars from the trucks up to using authentic ones where you can't touch one thing, as it is now a historical relic. Also the consist seems pretty good although the general practice at the time was one baggage car at each end on WL trains. It probably did not include too many cars on the eastern end of the run. But in the western end there were many more (through sleepers for Munich, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, and Athens) which must have been dropped of as it went east. Those trains, as the film shows well, were mainly run for the benefit of the English clientel, which could afford them.
Well happy new year to all!


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## Johnsop (Jan 5, 2008)

vsmith said:


> The current OE cruise train is trying to recreate an OE that existed only during the salad days of trans Europe luxury train travel that existed before the depression and WW2. The OE Mr Grumpy ;-) is describing is very much the train that existed in the post war years when it was really nothing more than a regional train with a glorified name plate attached. The fact that the cold war cut off the route to the "orient" and they instead redirected it to Venice says alot about what a ghost of the original train it had become.
> 
> The Simplon OE is an echo of an era long long gone. But I would love to ride it.


in retrospect perhaps referring to du-bousquetaire as mr grumpy was a little unfair so do accept my apology. I travelled out of Paris est on the orient express in 1979 I think using my interrail pass. It was incredibly slow once we got past Belgrade. If I recall some Russian carriages were added to the train at some point possibly at Budapest but my memory is very vague on thisI remember that you had to step up about 9 inches at the corridor connection. Would these carriages have had their bogies swapped because of the gauge change. Be interested to hear du-bousquetaire view on this


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It did cross the iron curtain most of the time though, although at times like the Hungarian crisis in 1956 it could have been detoured, As I said in an earlier post an early James Bond film (I think it was the first one) shows that reality quite well.) I am not familiar with the original direct orient as I travelked once to Vienna on the Arlberg orient exp. (and thence to Greece) and to Venice on the Simplon orient express. I have a few books on the history of Wagon lits and could probably find the consist somewhere, but it changed considerably as through cars were added or taken off this long trip, with many capitals reached by branches. As far as I know though there was hardly any throught raffic from Russia as it would have been much simpler for Russians going to Istamboul directly trough Ukraine, Roumania and Bulgaria. However there were through Russian sleepers to Belgrade on other trains, some might have continued to the east but it doesn't make sens geographically. Its too bad the film makers didn't consult a real knowledgeable railfan as some of the German built Bulgarian 4-8-2 have been restored to working condition and run on railfan specials regularly now. These would have been more apropriate for this film, or the Roumanian berkshires. But it was nice to see the high drivered Est mountain doing the honors, never the less in surroundings which she never saw during her active career. (Now preserved in Switzerland it takles the Gothard pass now and then with double headers and electic helpers no doubt). 80" drivers would be quite useless on 4% grades or more.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Jonsop, thanks for the recognition that I don't try to be grumpy but to inform. I model Pennsy also, so I know just how hard it is to find prototype info on a railroad 4000 miles away... To get back to this thread two infos I do have: There were Russian sleepers going to the west: My father once took a trip to Bielarussia from Poland and did make some photos for me of the shed somewhere on the border between the two where they changed the trucks at 330 AM. These were not digital photos though. 

The second is the Nord Express used to handle a direct Russian sleeper to Paris Nord and the 232 U1 actually hauled it for a bout a year or so (it was introduced just before steam was changed to electric traction to Belgium). it also hauled scandinavian sleepers. I use a Marklin DRG shurtzwagen sleeper on mine and some german cars but no Russian sleeper...
Sorry to answer so much later. Best


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

For one thing US modelers of european railways should distinguish two totally different types of luxury trains opertated by the CIWLT, at least untill circa 1939. Day trains operated with very tight schedules (extra fare) with Pullman or salon cars. These were usually run in pairs called "couplage" one with kitchen and one without. Some of the name of these trains are: the Golden Arrow, L'Etoile du Nord, l'Oiseau Bleu, the Côte d'Azur rapide, the Sud Express, etc. usualy two to three couplages were set between WL baggage cars. And the other type were long distance trains made up mainly of sleepers, diners and baggage cars: Such as the 3 Orient Expresses, the Nord Express Paris-St Petersburg & Scandinavia,the Blue train, the Rome express Etc. None of these carried Pullmans the sleepers were converted into compartments by the attendants. So the VSOE does something which the CIWLT never did. In a way its a great experience, but it remains quite different from what these great trains were in reality. Now, the Keneth Brannagh film is so far off, that I won't bother to grump about it. Even the older film was full of mistakes, most railway themed films are... As far as I know the CIWLT never owned or operated an observation car, nor used Gresley bogies.
I certainly hope these tidbits of luxury train operations in Europe did not spoil Mr Mebane fun on the VSOE. That wasn't my objective at all.


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