# Concrete Roadbed



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Searching the forums I found tons of posts referencing concrete roadbeds, but not a lot of information consolidated in one place enough to actually do anything. I know Marty has done some nice articles on the subject, but I can't seem to find them. Does anyone have a link to any of Marty's articles or other articles on the subject? I'd rather have some kind of document to go by rather than try to weed through hundreds of posts for a little information.

Thanks.


----------



## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

I believe that Marty's article was placed in this site's archive which has been lost after the new owner took over. 

You might try a Google search with a search term such as "concrete roadbed site:mylargescale.com marty" and you might get lucky. An additional issue that might present itself are the links to pictures that were hosted on the Photobucket.com site.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Each person had his own technique. One thing I can tell you is that if you have frost heave, it is NOT a good idea.

Also do not screw the track down to the concrete, make "clips" that allow the track some movement.

If you do decide to do this, which I do not recommend, then be sure to not only put rebar in the concrete, but make sure your sections have rebar going between them.

Most attempts at concrete roadbed wind up with poor trackwork as the concrete moves and settles.

Greg - 693


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Marty poured a floating slab with re-bar the entire length, like pouring a sidewalk. There was nothing complicated about it. He has done the same with the 1" RR. Find him easily on Face Book.


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,Sharon
What are your weather extremes? Battery or track power? I live in Gig Harbor, Washington. My railroad is on concrete roadbed with some that has been down for 12 years with no problem. If you want to make a roadtrip up here I would be happy to show you my methods.


----------



## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

My original concrete roadbed went in over 15 years ago and is still there. When I hit the grades I went to Split Jaw as pouring concrete on a grade was beyond my paygrade.

Build notes; I thoroughly wetted and packed the subsoil. South Texas doesn't have what y'all call "frost heave". I used no rebar anywhere. 10 years ago I expanded an area and had to take out about ten feet of the original to make a connection and it came out in nice neat slabs. If there had been rebar, I hate to think of the extra work

Concrete roadbed works great and isn't hard to do - just very time consuming.


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul Burch said:


> Michael,Sharon
> What are your weather extremes? Battery or track power? I live in Gig Harbor, Washington. My railroad is on concrete roadbed with some that has been down for 12 years with no problem. If you want to make a roadtrip up here I would be happy to show you my methods.


My weather extremes, fortunately, are not extreme. Frost heave is likely not a problem around here. I'm about 50 miles south of Portland. We used to go to Seattle to visit our granddaughter, but she just moved to Minneapolis. However, I hope to get up there one day to scout out layouts for the National Convention in 2019. We want to arrange some tours in your area for post-convention. I will be running battery power. I think the concept is sound after seeing Marty's layout. I just need to refresh my memory on the details.


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe Johnson said:


> Build notes; I thoroughly wetted and packed the subsoil. South Texas doesn't have what y'all call "frost heave".


I always got a kick out of you guys who claim to live in "South Texas". When I lived in McAllen, we considered anyone who lived north of the Del Rio/San Antonio/Houston line Yankees!


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,Sharon,
Just let me know if you would like to stop by. I have a large layout based on class one mainline running, code 250 track. All battery power. I have been to Marty's several times in the past. My method is very similar to what he did
Just dug out this old post.

.http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/24078-southern-pacific-gp9-s.html


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps some could answer the following questions on their use of concrete.

1. What are the dimensions of the concrete roadbed?
2. What is the concrete recipe? Simply quickcrete? A mix of mortar mix and concrete mix? Aggregate or no aggregate?
3. How is the rebar suspended in the forms?
4. Are there any kind of expansion joints? If so, how often?
5. What form materials?

Thanks.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Michael, here's how I did mine.

1. 4"w x 4"d [<<<< edited; I had mistakenly typed 3"d, but it's 4" min]
2. Quickrete or Sakrete
3. Small rocks
4. Nope; hasn't cracked in 3 years
5. 4" tall Masonite strips (2 layers, staggered joints)

Here's my main build thread, which has glimpses of other's methods here and there.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-track-trestles-bridges-roadbed/19361-finally-doing-roadbed.html

Have fun!
Cliff


----------



## Mike Gibson (Feb 8, 2013)

I have a couple years out of my concrete roadbed without any issues so far. I would say Edmonton Alberta is fairly extreme with plenty of ground frost. Hit the link in my signature for pictures.

As to the questions...

1. About 4" wide and minimum 4" deep. Part of my roadbed is a retaining wall that got 6-8" thick.
2. Quickrete mixed in a wheelbarrow
3. I used small plastic stands you can get at any hardware store.
4. I didn't put any expansion joints in. No cracks yet.
5. I ripped 1/4" plywood into strips using a table saw, and hammered lots of stakes into the ground. Enough to give me tendinitis in my shoulder.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff & Mike, did you use any rebar?

I've frankly quite surprised, even here in San Diego, with no frost heave and little rain, we still get settling of concrete and cracks.

Greg - 650


----------



## Mike Gibson (Feb 8, 2013)

I did use rebar. Keeps things inline even if there is some movement.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I did concrete road bed. Mine is over 20 years old. I live in Phoenix AZ. I lost interest in my RR for almost 2 years. I then went back to it. all I had to do was clear weeds and the track was just the way I left it. Search me John J. on here you might find some of my stuff. I also did a thing about anchoring you track. I can't get to my Pictures stored on here so I don't come here very much any more. Hope you can find what you are looking for. Look on face book. There are several G scale forums there


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When I recommend concrete roadbed, JJ's method and experience is what I reference, no better recommendation than 20 years of success!

(he puts reinforcement in, connects adjacent sections with metal, and uses a track securing system with a bit of "give") (I did get this right JJ?)

Greg - 646


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I use 3/8" rebar in my roadbed. Just one piece down the middle. Always leave some sticking out the end of any pour to tie to the next section. Most of it has been down for 12 plus years with no problems.
JJ, please visit here a little more often, miss your comments and input. A very high profile member here was able to recover my photos to a DVD for me.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

John J said:


> I did concrete road bed. Mine is over 20 years old. I live in Phoenix AZ. I lost interest in my RR for almost 2 years. I then went back to it. all I had to do was clear weeds and the track was just the way I left it. Search me John J. on here you might find some of my stuff. I also did a thing about anchoring you track. I can't get to my Pictures stored on here so I don't come here very much any more. Hope you can find what you are looking for. Look on face book. There are several G scale forums there



JJ, I'm so glad to see you're ok! Been too long since I've seen your by line here.
Sad state of affairs when a Super Moderator can't get to his pics! That's as bad as mine being dumped.
I only come here to see old friends, I post my efforts 'over there'.
John


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Cliff & Mike, did you use any rebar?


Greg, I use single 3/8" rebar; at joints, overlapped maybe 6" and tied together with rebar wire.

Hi JJ! Glad you got things cleaned up and running!

Here's an early thread of mine, and it still has a number of JJ's roadbed construction pics.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-t...ed/17093-more-concrete-roadbed-questions.html

CJ


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Michael and Sharon (Texas), I'm in Arizona (no frost heave, but do like to use reinforced concrete. I usually make my road beds 5-1/2" wide (allows for any movement or realignment after it is poured. I use the Home Depot Sakcrete or pre-mixed....and concrete by definition has aggregate in it. The bag stuff is usually pea gravel and not the 3/4" minus that you find in real mix via a truck. I use #3 rebar, easier to cut with a bolt cutter and more than sufficient for the loads. You can suspend it in the form if you like (I make my beds about 6" deep), or you can just raise the rebar up as your pour the concrete into the form...make my mixture a little wet so it gives me time to work it. I always lap the rebar (about 12") and tie it together. Expansion joints...well, the most I've ever poured in a day is about 30 feet, so you get a cold joint when you start to pour again. I use a combination of 1x6 and strips of 1/4" Masonite for the forms. I did break down and purchase a lot of steel form stakes (18" long) and just clean them up and reuse them a lot.


----------



## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

I am a big fan of concrete roadbed, no problems with moles, no problems with concrete movement, no problems with weeds. 
One piece of 3/8" rebar in the middle, hang out a few inches when stoping a pour, so the next pour has something to grab onto, to prevent any shifting. 
Pour 3-4" wide 3 inches deep
use regular quick crete straight out of sack, just add water
no expansion joints in concrete
just pour about half the depth, lay the rebar down and cover up with the top half.
This is not rocket science, no need for perfection. 
some people will use 7/16" masonite siding cut to about 3" wide. use 1" x 2" for stake and screws to hold into position, use level across the forms so it will provide a level track base.. On a long straight a way, use a string
to provide a straight flat form. 
Get one side all laid the way you want it, then use a short torpedo level to level across the track width, so the other side just needs to follow the first side, so dont try to lay up both sides together. 
If you want to cut little spacers to space and hold your forms apart, then as you pour cement into the forms, pull the little spacers out as you pour up to them.
No need in perfect alignment as far as trying to keep perfect straight, or your curves flowing perfectly, you are most likely going to push dirt up to the edge and it will be hidden. 
I use metal for my forms, but I am a metal fabricator.
Use a board to screed the cement across the top of your forms, making it match your forms. 
Remove forms the next day.
DO NOT OVERTHINK THE PROCEDURE
if you have never poured cement, watch a couple you tube videos on pouring side walks, you are pouring a real narrow sidewalk.


----------



## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael it sounds to me like you are trying to making a simple job, hard. I’ve used concrete roadbed ever since seeing Marty’s, years ago. 
Width, about an inch wider than you track/s.
Depth, depending on your sub strate.
Mixture, in particular aggregate, I use grit because I screw my track down. You don’t want 1 1/2 “ unless you intend to walk on it.
For formers, I use some 1/16” galvanised metal strip, held in place with 1/2 “ tent pegs.
Hardest part! Just getting started.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Although I think that I explained this years ago in this forum: I have used concrete quite succesfully in clayish soil in a very humid and northerly climate (the greater Paris erea in France, remember April in Paris is a nice song the reality of the climate is something else...) which features some ground shift. What I did was to use precast one meter by 23-24 cm wide (9") concrete sidewalk borders purchased at a building material shop. As my track is double track anyways this fitted out our track base nicely. This was laid on a concrete and sand base. As I wanted a dross strip alongside the ballast, We used a piece of flat iron 1/4" thick, and three inch wide, which was laid alongside this on each side and curved to the desired radius and this was used as a mold to make the curved side with concrete as you need a foot wide for two tracks (Much like Denray says). After, this sort of worked as a rail joiner between slabs keeping them pretty welll aligned. After 39 year this has shifted in level in three or four places, which was corrected with a disk grinder. The advantage of using pre cast sidewalk borders is that you can level them both ways accuratly as you put them in place.

The biggest problem that I had was a lilac tree root which split appart the engine terminal erea and pushed some of the curve in front of it out of alignement (exactly the diameter of the root which I dug out when I decided to solve the problem). I did away with the lilac although it created a nice shade, and the layout now is more visible than before and umbrellas provide the shade. I routed out some tramels exactly to the radius of the curve and realigned the curve and now it is perfectly in its intended alignement. This is low maintenance for nearly fourty years of railroading in the garden.


The dross strip keeps the grass at bay and helps keep the track and right of way clear. I use rawl plugs (the cheap ones cut in two) and brass screws to hold down the track which is ballasted about one every foot I use steel binding wire to elevate the oak ties so that air can get under them, this also permits superelevation by using a big wire on the outside and a smaller one inside. Don't overtighten the screws or your track will have a wave like profile. I tried using scale ballast ordered from a pet shop (for aquariums) glued down , but moss has grown into that so I never standardised on that, besides my inner main line is with home made track using oak ties which must not be glued down. So I have to use overscale size ballast because otherwise the raindrops would bomb it out of the right of way! I have found a neat way to keep moss out (I model two class 1 railways, that prided themselves with their trackwork) which also protects the track from moisture in winter and keeps the brass rail from oxidising in summer. I cover this up with extruded plastic wall pannels, sold in hardware stores for renovating bathrooms on the cheap. I find concrete a good solution on the long run. By the way ground shift does not happen every year here. In permafrost ereas this would just not work out I guess, but clay is the worst type of soil for that problem, it expands when wet and shrinks during a drought. If you soil is sand I think that you would have no problems at all with it.


----------

