# REally strange, unexplainable behavious - help needed



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

A friend of mine has run into the following strange problem - I wonder if anyone on mls has come across this or something similar.
The whole thing doesn't make sense to me

He runs:
Massoth Central Station 1200 Z Me 011350 10887 Version 2.62
Navigator Version 01803 1.81b
00000 2.6
Soundmodule Phoenix P5
Loco decoder Digitrax DG 583 AR

installed in an Aristocraft Dash-9

When he activates the bell or whistle or other Phoenix sound functions while the loco is standing still, everything works as it should.

If he activates the same sound functions when the loco is running, the diesel sound works properly but none of the function triggered sounds play at all.
And then, when he stops the loco, the previously selected function triggered sounds play in the sequence they were initially triggered.

As if that isn't weird enough, he then took his loco and his Massoth Navigator to a friend's house and tried this with the friends Piko DCC system, and there everything worked the way it should.

The sounds played when the function key was pushed regardless if the loco was in motion or standing still.

We already tried changing CV values (3, 4 and 29) as suggested by Massoth, making them the same on both decoders, checked the 14 vs 28 speed steps, ran it at different DCC voltages since the Massoth puts out 24 volts, the Piko system maybe less - all with no improvement.


Any suggestion what the problem might be or what else to try?


To add to this - another person piped up - he is running Phoenix sound and also ESU sound along with a Heller motor decoder.
Heller decoder is a Zimo decoder with a 10 amp output stage, but otherwise the same as Zimo.
He found the same problem but only if the loco is under load, ie up an incline. Then he gets no triggered sounds to play until the load is reduced.
Regular driving sounds are always fine, it's just the triggered sounds that are the problem when the loco is running.

Knut 


PS: The second person also runs locos with a combo Massoth Sound/loco decoder - no problems with those locos, the function triggered sound plays when it should.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm no expert on DCC or the Phoenix systems, but I've certainly encountered my share of "glitches" even using simple 555/556 chips when triggering relays to run solonoids and motors. I've seen things no one could explain, except as "electrical interference." 

The solution I came upon was to use ferrite beads. I think I used 7 to get Gustav to run reliably without glitching. Gustav uses a couple 555 oscillators to trigger a small relay, to trigger a solonoid. The solonoid is simply switched by the relay armature, and even with its own power supply, the system would "glitch" such that the oscillators would not run full term, and you never know when they would stop before they were supposed to.

You can see several of ferrites in this picture. They have holes in them and the wire is wrapped through the holes. These have been my salvation and may be worth a try for you. They were either from Goldmine Electronics or Allelectronics.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Knut,

I would recommend he change his Navigator firmware back to version 1.71 and see what happens on his own system. 1.81 was the Piko-specific update, so my suspicion is that is why it works with the Piko central station but not with the regular Dimax. I don't know why it should make a difference, but that seems to be a logical place to start. If that fixes it I would suggest he send the info to Massoth so they can correct it in the next firmware update.

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By taking the loco to a different layout, you have proved it is the DCC system at the first location. 

Sure sounds like a command station problem. 

 Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info so far. 

One other weird thing that just came up - but on the Phoenix 2K2 sound module. 

If F3 is "on", then FF1 and F2 can be triggered while the loco is running; if F3 is not "on" then F1 and F2 can only be triggered when the loco is stopped. 
That doesn't make sense either since according to the Phoenix 2K2 manual, F3 has nothing to do with F1 and/or F2, F3 triggers the coupler clank from what I see in the manual. 

This btw is from a third person who was also having difficuly with the Phoenix sound modules but I don't know what DCC system he is running. 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think they better use the Phoenix programming software and see what's going on. It's not unusual for the Phoenix settings to get scrambled when programming a decoder. Do they have that ability? 

Keith


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: have you looked at the CV values that govern load control in the Digitrax? Try to disable load control first and see if that has any effect. 

Mohammed BenDebba
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Uhh... how can the CV settings in the Digitrax decoder possibly affect the execution of DCC functions in the Phoenix? 

Unless I am completely bonkers, all the issues are with executing function commands to the sound system. 

I cannot think of any situation where this could happen unless the Digitrax is transmitting "DCC jamming signals" .... conspiracy theorists awake! (that is a joke)... 

Can you explain your reasoning? Maybe I have missed something fundamental here, and I'm always learning. 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg, My question is based on what Knut said "he found the same problem but only if the loco is under load, ie up an incline. Then he gets no triggered sounds to play until the load is reduced. 
Regular driving sounds are always fine, it's just the triggered sounds that are the problem when the loco is running." 

Mohammed


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg, 

I think Mohammed is mixing up the problems of the first two users. 

There are three users total so far that have, what on the surface, look like possibly related problems - 

User 1 - Can't trigger Phoenix functions of bell, horn etc. while the engine is moving; functions trigger fine with the engine stopped. Uses Massoth Central Station with Digitrax motor decoder and P5 sound decoder. 
User 2 - Can't trigger Phoenix functions of bell, horn etc. while the engine is under load, ie back EMF feedback; functions trigger fine with the engine running not under load (ie uphill). Uses Heller (Zimo software) motor decoder and P5 sound decoder. 
User 3 - Can't trigger Phoenix functions of bell, horn etc. while the engine is moving if F3 is not turned on; with F3 off, the bell and horn will only trigger while the loco is stopped. This is with a Phoenix 2K2. 

For User 2, turning off back EMF control would be something to try. 

What really gets me is that the selected F1, F2 etc functions play AFTER the loco is either stopped (user 1) or no longer under load (user 2) 
That would mean either the central station stores these commands and sends them out later or the Phoenix sound decoder stores them and plays them later. 
Both are really weird scenarios - it would make much more sense if these functions via F1, F2 etc. didn't play at all (or played at the proper time) - but getting delayed???? 
Also strange that the f1, F2 functions always trigger properly with a Massoth sound decoder which implies that there is some interaction betweena separate motor decoder and the Phoenix sound decoder. 

Regards, 

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: we boh agree that back-emf is something to look at for user 2. 
For user 1, back emf is also a possiblity, to a different degree,any load on the motor effects sound, no load at all as in standing still, sound. 
For user 3, I would look at what F3 means for the driving decoder and what it means for the sound decoder.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mohammed - Right now pretty much none of this makes any logical sense, so yeah, sure - can't hurt to see what happens when back EMF is turned off on the Heller Decoder. 
I actually posted that already on the German site where people are discussing this problem. 

But I agree with Greg - doesn't make any sense that BEMF enabled on the motor decoder has any influence whatsoever on the F1, F2 etc. functions that should be picked up by the Phoenix decoder. 
I would assume the Central Station sends out the commands properly since Massoth sound decoders for user 2 work fine - the F- sounds get triggered when the function button is pushed. 
It seems to be the combination Massoth Central station, Phoenix sound decoder and separate motor decoder (either Digitrax or Heller/Zimo so far) cause this type of problems - and it's not exactly the same for user 1 and 2. 

I think we need to wait what replies come back before we take this any further unless someone who reads this has these same problems. 

Knut


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

noise on the track will keep the phonix sound from triggering . so a bad conection to track or in the track add a filter of some sort to the power going to the board ..

just as was said at the start of the thread


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: I am intersted in hearing what other has to say of this. It is without a doubt strange, but I most curious about what is going on with user 3.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 07 Nov 2011 08:17 PM 
noise on the track will keep the phonix sound from triggering . so a bad conection to track or in the track add a filter of some sort to the power going to the board ..

just as was said at the start of the thread

Thanks Scott,

Yes - noise could definitely the culprit for user 1 and user 2.
The loco moving (user 1) pr under load (user 2) would increase the noise level on the track, but if it turns out that this is the problem, then Phoenix has a serious design issue.
After all - track powered model trains create a high electrical noise environment - that is the basic nature of the beast and if the Phoenix design can't handle that, their engineers need to go back to the drawing board.

However, to determine if this is what is causing the issue, an in absence of a scope that would tell us what is going on, do you or anyone else have a recommendation what value of ferrite to try in the power leads of the Phoenix sound decoders?
I see no suggestion or recommendation about that in either the Phoenix manuals or on the Phoenix website.

I also did a google search but that brought up nothing.

Regards,

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I use similar to these. They are cheap enough to try out.

BTW, I have solved several other "glitch" problems, but never found my implemented solutions on the internet (such as this one for Gustav), so the 'net doesn't know it all.

Ferrite chokes


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

thank you for the link i will give them a try ..... i have been debating what to try ...... have seen this problem a lot so i would say that phonix sound has a bit of a problem


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 07 Nov 2011 09:56 PM 
I use similar to these. They are cheap enough to try out.



Thank-you as well.

If the product code in the ebay auction is correct, this would be an 84 microhenry choke

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/krs/datasheet-5.pdf


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I use a packet analyze: *http://www.pricom.com/Tr...trong>**








*


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't think that would help you in this situation if the high frequency noise is really the culprit. 

The way it sits right now - Massoth combi motor/sound decoders work fine; the Phoenix one does as well if the loco is stopped but not if it is running. 
So a possibility would be that the additional electrical noise on the track and DCC sugnal with the loco running is sufficient to confuse the Phoenix decoder but not the Massoth decoder. 
How would the analyser pick that up? 
I haven't red the detailed manual, but I assume the analyser checks for min and max timing of the DCC signal as well as the rise time - woild it check for susceptibility to high frequency noise or measure the amount of that noise that is present? 

Then again - the problem could be something totally different, but the "noise theory" so far fits pretty well with what has been reported by users 1 and 2. 

Regards, 

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: 
Do the Phoenix decoders feature overload protection? 

Mohammed


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

they are sound only no motor fuction ...

. at one point phonix told one costomer of mine to add noise filters across the rails on the layout .....

another has trouble in only one spot on the whole layout and we where going to test some things but i got sick and it never happened


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Trains West on 08 Nov 2011 06:52 AM 
they are sound only no motor fuction ...

. at one point phonix told one costomer of mine to add noise filters across the rails on the layout .....

another has trouble in only one spot on the whole layout and we where going to test some things but i got sick and it never happened 


Scott: They offer no function other than sound? I know nothing about them other than what I hear on this forum.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

and your point is what? ok that was weard first you had no reply just a quote then poof you had a reply


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

yes they are sound only no lights or motor ....

this is mostly due to the fact that they started buy making sound systems for dc and latter added dcc to the sound system.... i think he tests mostly with dc and maybe only on a small test track with dcc ( or on the bench ) so he has not seen the problem 


i have run on the clubs temp track that we set up at shows and have had little problem but the last show the track was a little wet from watering plants and i saw the problem untill the track dryed out .... not sure why this was true


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, so if noise/dirt on the track is a cause, then why did the Phoenix work fine on the Piko layout? How do the layouts compare in terms of track material, joints, cleanliness? I had an early Phoenix P5 that was very susceptible to voltage interruption. I recall that they made a change to the boards to deal with it--my guess is this is one of those cases so some kind of voltage buffer might help too. I would tell user 1 to clean his wheels/pickups, track and see if that makes any difference too. 

Keith


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

To me, the problem seems to be a combination of several minor problems that by themselves would not be a problem. I have seen problems like this in other realms (radio and computer manufacturing) and it is just a problem that all components are never "perfect" and if enough have some insignificant problem then the sum of them add up to a screwy failure. 

The power supply on the home rails MIGHT have a wee bit more ripple (or even a wee bit less) than at the other tracks, and that in combination with a cold solder joint someplace or a lead that is a wee bit longer (or shorter) than the same lead in another unit, or wires routed in a slightly differern orientation to other wires than in other sysstems, or a component (semiconductor, in particular) that has a small contamination in it such that is has a resonant frequency different than expected, slightly (or vastly) different track lengths, lead wires, moisture levels, etc. can all add up negatively such that in certain combinations there are problems. 

Ferrite beads on some leads, or correction of poor solder joints ANYWHERE it the WHOLE system, or moving signal and power wires such that they don't interact the same way, replacing any one (or two) component(s) of the system (even if they work elsewhere), etc., etc., etc., COULD alter the sum of the minor faults such as to cure the problem. 

Finding "THE" particular cause, or the most guilty part, is often just a matter of trying EVERYTHING you can think of and suddenly the failure goes away. You may then think that the last thing you did was the cure, but it might be that you finally reduced the sum of the minor problems such that it works, whereas if you had taken the "fixes" in some different order you would have come to a completely different conclusion but still fixed the problem.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Trains West on 08 Nov 2011 09:42 AM 
and your point is what? ok that was weard first you had no reply just a quote then poof you had a reply 

I think the problem has to do with whether or not I remember to put IE in compatability mode before I type-in my response. It drives me nuts.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 08 Nov 2011 09:51 AM 
i have run on the clubs temp track that we set up at shows and have had little problem but the last show the track was a little wet from watering plants and i saw the problem untill the track dryed out .... not sure why this was true 

Something is haywire with this website since yesterday. 
Now when I select "quote" and the type my reply to the quoted text (like the one above), my cursor moves on the screen but there is no visible text. 
Yesterday that all worked fine. 
So now I copy the text I want to quote and start a new post - that works, but what changed that suddenly text typed in reply to a quote no longer shows? 

Anyway - the question to Scott was - were these problem identical to what is being seen here - pushing the F- buttons doesn't play the sound on the Phoenix system when it should.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Knut,

Would you like me to send you a few of the "beads" I've been using. If you would like to try this, I can part with a few. As I recall you are in Canada. Just let me know the best (and cheapest) way to get them to you.

Todd


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 08 Nov 2011 10:32 AM 
OK, so if noise/dirt on the track is a cause, then why did the Phoenix work fine on the Piko layout? How do the layouts compare in terms of track material, joints, cleanliness? I had an early Phoenix P5 that was very susceptible to voltage interruption. I recall that they made a change to the boards to deal with it--my guess is this is one of those cases so some kind of voltage buffer might help too. I would tell user 1 to clean his wheels/pickups, track and see if that makes any difference too. 

Keith 

Could be different noise levels on the layouts, Keith
(I'm typing this inside the quote box because otherwise the text no longer shows up.

On the weekend the plan is to bring the Piko system to the location of the Massoth system and try the Piko system there to see what happens.


CCCCCchjkjkk


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Ah... 
In my last post I see that the text I type outside the quote box shows when the post goes up on mls, it just doesn't show anymore when the text is actually typed. 
That should be easy to fix.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Knut, 

Would you like me to send you a few of the "beads" I've been using. If you would like to try this, I can part with a few. As I recall you are in Canada. Just let me know the best (and cheapest) way to get them to you. 

Todd 

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Thanks for the offer Todd, 

The problem is actually with three different users in Germany. 
I passed on the info re the ferrites suggesting they source them over there - haven't heard back yet. 

But at this point it sure sound like noise on the DCC sugnal is causing the problem with Phoenix. 
Trouble is if one can't analyse the noise then fixing the issue, ie some sort of noise suppression, becomes a hit and miss exercise.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Anyone know how many sound channels the Phoenix P5 module has? 

Lack of sufficient sound channels was brought up as a possible cause for this issue but I think that is extremely unlikely considering Phoenix has been in the model train sound business for many years. 
Detecting DCC function packets in a real live operational and noisy environment seem a much more likely cause since that is a more recent Phoenix development. 

I think a request to Phoenix support is in order. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If it works on one layout and not another, how could it be the number of "sound channels"? 

I think debugging the problem layout is in order... 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Nov 2011 11:15 PM 
If it works on one layout and not another, how could it be the number of "sound channels"? 


It can't.
Even if the problems were the same at the two layouts, it's extremely unlikely that the problem would be something that basic considering that Phoenix has been in the model train sound business for many. many years.

But when the comment came up I decided for my own education to check in the Phoenix P5 manual and was a bit surprised to find no reference to that parameter anywhere so I decided to ask.

Maybe there is no limit in practice - ie, all sounds that can possibly play at the same time will play without interference. That's what I would expect.
The plan is to try the Piko DCC system on the layout of User 1 tomorrow - be interesting what happens.

Knut

PS: In general Greg, I'm always a bit leery what people tell me they have tried or didn't try and what results they obtained especially if the person has no electronics background at all.

Thus I'm not fully convinced that the problem is as layout specific as they make it.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Current status of this issue is as follows: 

Piko Central Station was moved to layout of User 1 (where all this started) 

Loco was run on a test stand 
First just with the Digitrax motor decoder - works fine 
Then with just the Phoenix sound decoder - works fine as well 
Then with both the Digitrax and the Phoenix sound decoder - now none of the Phoenix sounds can be triggered using the DCC function keys. 
These tests were done with a Massoth 1200Z Central Station. 

They had a second Massoth 1200Z Central Station - tried the tests with that. Exactly the same results. 

Then tried the tests with the Piko Central Station, still on the test rollers - with the Piko Central Station everything works the way it should including triggering of all the Phoenix Sounds with the function keys. 

So - that proves to me it's not a problem related to the layout itself. 

Now get this - 

CV's on the Digitrax Decoder were changed as follows: 
CV29 from 6 to 2 (turns off analog operation) 
CV3 from 25 to 3 
CV4 from 25 to 3 

and voila....now everything works the way it should with the Massoth Central Station as well. 
And not only on the test rollers, also on the whole layout. 

Not sure exactly what the Problem was - sounds as if the Massoth Central Station under certain conditions is sending out a signal that is interpreted by the Digitrax as DC and maybe by Phoenix as well. 
Any other good giuesses? 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like the massoth is doing something weird... cv3 and 4 make no sense, cv29 might make sense if the digitrax was acting funny, but it was the phoenix... 

I'd be putting my DCC packet analyzer on the track... 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I know what it might be: there is a setting on the Phoenix board called MTS detection in the DCC option. Check that setting and see if changing it makes a difference. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 10 Nov 2011 10:49 AM 
I think I know what it might be: there is a setting on the Phoenix board called MTS detection in the DCC option. Check that setting and see if changing it makes a difference. 

Keith 
Keith -

Which CV are you talking about?
I looked at them and none of them seem to relate to using the DCC function outputs to play Phoenix bell or Horn sounds.
The closest is CV 49 but that relates to how the loco speed is determined
But I just asked the question to see if any CV's were changed from the Phoenix defaults - except the loco address of course.

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut you need the Phoenix programming software to be able to change that setting, I believe. I'm not sure how you do it if you don't have the program and cable. It's one of the options in the DCC section of the Phoenix, and by setting the MTS detection to "on" it tells it to look for a serial pulse train coming from the DCC system. 
Another question: On his navigator, he can set each locomotive to either P (parallel) or S(serial). How has he got that set for the problem locomotive? Was he using the same navigator when he tried the Piko system? If not, how was the Piko navigator set, P or S?

Keith


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: you said above 
"Now get this - 

CV's on the Digitrax Decoder were changed as follows: 
CV29 from 6 to 2 (turns off analog operation) 
CV3 from 25 to 3 
CV4 from 25 to 3 

and voila....now everything works the way it should with the Massoth Central Station as well." 

Where the CV values changed en masse or sequentially? I am wondering whether or not the changes to the values of CV3 & CV4 were necessary? would the change to the value of CV29 have been sufficient? 

Mohammed


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 10 Nov 2011 11:50 AM 
Knut you need the Phoenix programming software to be able to change that setting, I believe. I'm not sure how you do it if you don't have the program and cable. It's one of the options in the DCC section of the Phoenix, and by setting the MTS detection to "on" it tells it to look for a serial pulse train coming from the DCC system. 
Another question: On his navigator, he can set each locomotive to either P (parallel) or S(serial). How has he got that set for the problem locomotive? Was he using the same navigator when he tried the Piko system? If not, how was the Piko navigator set, P or S?

Keith 

Keith,

The guy is using a Digitrax decoder in an Aristo loco - no serial pulse chain.
And when he tried it with the Piko system, he was still using his original Massoth Navigator.
Remember, all the Phoenix function keys worked fine when the loco was standing still and those same function keys stopped working when the loco was moving.
That's for user 1.
So things were programmed close to correctly - actually competely correctly because urning off analog conversion shouldn't have had any effect. Trouble is that it often does - that must be the most difficult feature to implement reliably on a DCC decoder. 


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 10 Nov 2011 01:09 PM 

Where the CV values changed en masse or sequentially? I am wondering whether or not the changes to the values of CV3 & CV4 were necessary? would the change to the value of CV29 have been sufficient? 

Mohammed 
Mohammed,

I believe the CVs were all changed at the same time - CV3 and CV4 were set back to the default value.
I already suggested that CV3 and 4 can probably set back to 25 without any ill effects.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm just getting back on this subject again. 

For user 1, turning off analogue conversion on the Digitrax decoder resolved the problem of not being able to trigger sounds on the Phoenix - not that this makes any sense, but let's leave that for now. 

User 2 who has the problem with Phoenix sounds not triggering when the loco is under "load' still has his problem resolved. 
Interestingly, if he uses a combined motor/sound QSI decoder in his Aristo SD-45 locos, everything works fine. 

Now the focus has turned to the wiring inside the Aristo SD-45; the German guys think its AWG 27, can anyone confirm that? Seems like an odd AWG size. 
And how is it wired? AWG 27 is only recommended for currents of 1.7 amps or less - maybe drawing more current under load drops the voltage somewhere internal to the loco enough to cause the problem with the Phoenix decoder. 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut, I know this may be a dumb question, but these guys aren't taking power for the Phoenix from/through the decoders by any chance are they? They should be going direct off track power to the Phoenix.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 17 Nov 2011 04:38 PM 
Knut, I know this may be a dumb question, but these guys aren't taking power for the Phoenix from/through the decoders by any chance are they? They should be going direct off track power to the Phoenix. 
I don't think so - they keep talking about having the two decoders connected in parallel.

I know one tried each decoder separately and that way everything worked the way it should.

User 2 has essentially the same problem running his Heller motor decoder with an ESU sound decoder rather than the Phoenix - so now wiring and wire gauges and voltage drops are being discussed.


However - anything in that area wouldn't explain why everything worked with the Piko Central Station but not Massoth because the track voltage was essentially the same.

Something seems to be marginal and a little change somewhere causes the problem.
Hard to troubleshoot via postings.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not 27 gauge wire... sheesh.... probably around 18.... maybe even 16.... Tell whoever thought that to measure the wire and look up awg.. 

27 gauge is 0.0142" ... one and one half hundredths of an inch.... someone is not reading or measuring correctly. 

*http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm* 


(scroll down for the chart) 


Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut, further to a previous post of mine, did he ever try changing the "MTS detection" setting on the Phoenix board? Also, you said he was using the same navigator with both Piko and Massoth central stations. I would suggest he change the setting from Parallel to Serial and back for each central station and try each central station in each position. That might tell if the Phoenix is set for MTS detection. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Nov 2011 05:50 PM 
It's not 27 gauge wire... sheesh.... probably around 18.... maybe even 16.... Tell whoever thought that to measure the wire and look up awg.. 

27 gauge is 0.0142" ... one and one half hundredths of an inch.... someone is not reading or measuring correctly. 

*http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm* 


(scroll down for the chart) 


Greg 
Greg,

They posted 0.14 square millimeters since it's a German site.

That translates into AWG 26 according to this chart
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html

I don't know how they came up with that, I'll check.

With either 16 or even 18 gauge wire inside the loco between pick-ups and decoder (or motor before the decoder was added), voltage drop there could not be an issue unless there is a cold solder joint.


I'll check how they came up with the 0.14 sqmm wire size.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 17 Nov 2011 06:21 PM 
Knut, further to a previous post of mine, did he ever try changing the "MTS detection" setting on the Phoenix board? Also, you said he was using the same navigator with both Piko and Massoth central stations. I would suggest he change the setting from Parallel to Serial and back for each central station and try each central station in each position. That might tell if the Phoenix is set for MTS detection. 

Keith 
No Keith, basically user 1 is now happy that his problem is "solved".
I put "solved" in quotation marks since it doesn't make sense to me that changing automatic analogue detection on the Digitrax motor decoder would have any influence on the parallel Phoenix sound decoder - there has to be more to that.

But of course user 1 is not interested in trying anything else.

Knut


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

I have a question ..

when you reprogramed the digitrax decoder did you unhook the sound decoder or where both on the track so to speek when it was programed ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut according to the chart you reference, it's between 25 and 26 gauge... but it's still nuts. 

Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

thats no lie ..... if true that wire is itty bitty


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 17 Nov 2011 10:57 PM 
I have a question ..

when you reprogramed the digitrax decoder did you unhook the sound decoder or where both on the track so to speek when it was programed ?

You mean when analogue detection on the Digitrax was deactivated?
Don't know - I'll check..........

That's the trouble trying to rouble-shoot complex problems like that - one never knows exactly what was done.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Nov 2011 01:04 AM 
Knut according to the chart you reference, it's between 25 and 26 gauge... but it's still nuts. 

Greg 
Greg,

I don't have a reply yet to my question on the German forum if the loco came wired like that or if that wire was used when the decoder was installed.


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Update on this situation: 

User 1, where things started to work after automatic analogue conversion was turned off. 
The programming change on the Digitrax Decoder was done with the Phoenix Decoder disconnected. However, User 1 commented that this may not have been always true when programming previously. 
He was also going to have someone who had the Phoenix software look at the details as Keith suggested, but he never got around to that. 
So - get this - the current solution (since the problem doesn't occur with the Piko Central Station) is to use a Piko Central Station but because it can only deliver up to 5 amps, not enough for the layout, he installed the Piko Central Station in a trailing car, two sets of batteries in a second trailing car and he now runs that consist with "DCC Battery Power" 
What we don't do to get our beloved trains to run! I guess cost is no object. 

User 2 with the problem whenever the locos are under heavy load. 
The 26 AWG wire was used because that is the "standard" gauge wire in Germany for model trains - at least that's what he wrote to me privately. 
For HO and N scale, that gauge may be fine but I tried to get it into his head that this gauge is not suitable for the power connections for Large Scale locos especially ones with several motors. 
Aristocraft seems to use stranded steel (?) wire which people over there immediately get rid of when they re-wire the locos. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stranded copper wire, with each wire tinned. There's no steel in the wire. It's cheap wire, but it conducts well enough. In this case, the person thinking they bettered the situation was sadly mistaken, even poor quality 16 gauge is way better than 25-1/2 gauge for current carrying capacity. 

Goofy... 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg, 

You think that is goofy....try this on for size: 

User 1 who had this problem on Phoenix sound only triggering when the loco was not moving - as soon as the loco moved, the Phoenix sounds no longer triggered. 
Problem happened with the Massoth 12 Amp DCC system but not with the 5 amp Piko system which is also made by Massoth and pretty much the same axcept for less output and fewer interfaces. 

Well, that user supposedly measured the current required to run the locos and the reading on the Massoth system was 8-10 amps. So he decided he could not use the Piko system because it is only rated for 5 amps. 
But guess what - when he places the Piko system into a trailing box car and runs everything via batteries (in a second trailing car), the current draw is only 3.5 amps. 

So my questions was - what else was connected to the track that was consuming the extra current? My guess was maybe smoke generators or God knows what. 

Guess what the first explanation was - by someone else thank God - 

Oh...this is normal, the longer the distance between the power source, ie the DCC Central Station and the loco, the more current is drawn - the explanation was basically that the motor uses x number of Watts, so if the loco is right at the DCC feed from the Central Station, and the voltage is say 20 volts and the current drawn is 5 volts, that's 100 watts, but if the loco now is at a distance from the Central Station and say the voltage has dropped to 10 volts because resistance in rail joiners etc, the current drawn will now be 10 amps.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, talk about having Ohms law screwed up... the more resistance, the less current drawn... 

Maybe someone should stick to pull toys... present company excepted... 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I guess I should stick to pull toys too because it makes sense to me. If he's got increased resistance because of dirty track or bad rail joints, and the voltage was dropping down the line then to maintain the same amount of power wouldn't the current have to increase at the central station (P=VI)? When using the onboard Piko he doesn't have that resistance so of course the current comes down. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 23 Nov 2011 11:30 AM 
Well I guess I should stick to pull toys too because it makes sense to me. If he's got increased resistance because of dirty track or bad rail joints, and the voltage was dropping down the line then to maintain the same amount of power wouldn't the current have to increase at the central station (P=VI)? When using the onboard Piko he doesn't have that resistance so of course the current comes down. 

Keith 
I can't believe it- the thread on the German forum has gone off the rails completely with others who should know better posting even more ridiculous examples.

The problem with their (and your logic( is that you start with watts - you assume that the motor magically tries to maintain the power in Watts even if there is resitance in the connection.

Take a simple example, a 100 watt light bulb. It is rated at 100 watts because that's the power it consumes at the rated voltage.
To make it simple, say the rating was at 100 volts, then the light bulb would draw 1 amp. and you get a certain brightness.

Then add a resitor in the line between the 100 volt power source and the light bulb - do you really expect the light bulb to still be the same brightness and still consume 100 watts of power?


Let's take some numbers - the resistance of that light buld filament when hot is 100 ohms. R=E/I; we know e which is the voltage, 100 volts and I which is the current, 1 amp.
So now let's add 100 ohms of resistance in the connection between the 100 volt source and the light bulb.
What happens?
The current drops to 1/2 amp. Ohms law again...I=E/R or I=100 volts divided by 200 ohms (the light bulb resistance plus the line resitance.

So now the power at the light bulb is only 25 watts, voltage across the light bulb of 50 volts times the current through the light bulb of 0.5 amps.


In reality this is not true because the resistance of the filament in a light bulb is non-linear, but if you add resistance in a electrical path, and keep the source voltage constant, the current will always drop, never increase.


With an electric motor, the current will only increase if it has to work harder, ie go uphill for instance - then the motor tries to draw more current.
Trouble is the more current flows the larger the voltage drop which means less power at the motor so the loco slows down and on model trains one typically compensates by turning up the throttle - providing more source voltage.
\
Hope that is clear.

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

But isn't the central station trying to maintain the Watts, and that's why the current increases? I can see your point for a fixed output voltage and current from the supply, but in this case I guess I was assuming it would keep cranking up the amps to meet the demand. Sorry I guess I'm still confused.... 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 23 Nov 2011 02:26 PM 
But isn't the central station trying to maintain the Watts, and that's why the current increases? I can see your point for a fixed output voltage and current from the supply, but in this case I guess I was assuming it would keep cranking up the amps to meet the demand. Sorry I guess I'm still confused.... 

Keith 
The Central Station doesn't "know" how many watts the motor needs, in fact it doesn't even know if it is powering a motor, light, sound, whatever.
All it does is to deliver the rated output voltage and the current up to the rated (or set value).
The Central Station has no clue if whatever it is diving is right next to it's output or two miles away, or what the resistance of the rail is between it and the motor.
The motor tries to draw the amount of current it needs to perform the work it is being asked to do - the voltage at the Central Station is determined by the load - for the Massoth 12 amp unit, the voltage will stay (or at least should stay) at the rated or set output voltage, say 24 volts as long as the current drawn stays below 12 amps, the voltage at the motor is determined by the voltage drop in the rails between the Central Station and the motor and that voltage drop is determined by the resistance of the rails and the current flowing through it - back to Ohm's law.

As far as the central Station is concerned, the load it "sees" is everything connected to its output terminals - that includes the rail resistance, motor impedance, leakage currents - it can't distinguish between the various loads.

Power, ie Watts, is a result of the voltage and current flowing in a device, not the other way around.
Back to the lightbulb - it's called a 100 watt light bulb because when you apply 100 volts to it, 1 amp will flow.
If you only apply 50 volts to it, much less current wil flow and it won't generate as much light or heat than with 100 volts applied to it, but it's still a 100 Watt light bulb.

I tyhink that's where people get confused - they somehow assume the wattage of a device is fixed regardless of the voltage applied.

Regards,

Knut


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut

Your use of a lamp (light bulb) is a perfect example of why the average individual is confused. The average individual relates a 100 watt light bulb to a given level of illumination not to electrical power consumption. Because that is how their life experience has conditioned them to relate the light bulbs and the term watt. Since within each respective country the electric power available in residential homes is a common constant and the light bulbs are rated in watts. If you want a brighter light bulb you buy one that has a higher wattage rating, or if a dimmer light bulb is desired then one with a lower wattage rating is called for.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"But isn't the central station trying to maintain the Watts, and that's why the current increases" 

The central station is not a constant current source (or it would HAVE to increase the voltage until the full amperage was shoved down the throat of the decoder)

--- take a deep breath and think about it---- 

If it was true, your loco would have to be consuming 3 amps all the time, moving or not, under load or not.


It does not make sense if you think about it. 


If the power supply was a constant current device, then it would HAVE to increase voltage as resistance increased. 



It's a constant voltage device.That's why the output voltage is specified as a number, and is adjustable for different scales.


The MAXIMUM current or WATTAGE is specified... maximum, not a constant, unwavering current.


Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Getting back to the original problem of user 1 (and maybe user 2 as well)

Now it seems that the problem is somehow caused by the Aristocraft loco - 

The following test were done:

1. Phoenix Decoder was tested directly connected to the Massoth Central Station - everything worked as it should
2. Then all the extra components were removed from the Aristo PCB so that only the Digitrax decoder and the Phoenix decoder were left connected; problem is back
3. Then the two decoders were removed from the Aristo PCB and wired directly to the motors in the Aristo loco - everything worked as it should.


Sounds a bit mysterious to me - anyone know enough about the Aristo PCB and the connector and wiring to hazard a guess what the problem might be?
What doesn't make sense to me in that current scenario is that the problem occurs with the Massoth Central Station but not with the Piko one - that, at least on the surface, points to a difference in the output circuitry of the two central stations.

Knut

PS: Wasn't there an issue the way one of the connectors on the Aristo board was wired?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo boards often have an on-board regulator, and it is usually a microprocessor, and it makes lots of electrical noise. 

There are also boards with linear regulators on them. 

That's what is most likely wrong, although there could also be a random, intermittent short that could be making noise. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

So Knut am I to understand that they didn't originally wire the Phoenix directly to track power? It's no wonder things are going haywire if they are getting power through the decoder somehow. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

No keith, 

The Phoenix decoder was connected directly to track power via a DPDT switch. 
Switch is used to disconnect the Phoenix when the Digitrax decoder is being reprogrammed. 
The Digitrax decoder was plugged into the connectors on the main Aristo board. 

I'm going to see if I can get a hold of Peter (User 1) today just to make sure there are no 'funnies' in the way things are wired up. 
This will also give me a chance to understand how godd/bad his understanding of electronics is. 

Regards, 

Knut 

Greg's comment re noise from the Aristo board makes a lot of sense. 
I'll see if I can find out which components were still on the board when the problem occurs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, shame on you saying I make a lot of sense, ha ha ha! 

The regulators are well known for crazy things happening. Dunno why Aristo loves to use a microprocessor and PWM to do regulation, but they do this on their smoke units also. 

A simple 3 terminal regulator rarely causes problems. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Still begs the question why the problem happened with the Massoth unit and not the Piko one. 

Could be a different output impedance of the two units - but I want to talk to Peter to get a bit more info and also confirm that the Piko unit still works properly with the Dash-9 as is while the Massoth one does not. 
It also sounds from the last post on the German forum that changing the programming to not auto-detect analogue only worked for a short while. 
I that programming change affecting the issue varies depending how far the loco is from the DCC central station feed point, that would suggest that the output impedance of the CS plays a role in all that. 

Really hard to trouble shoot without being there and having a scope. 
With a scope and some one there who knows how to use it the cause of the problem would have been identified ages ago. 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

It is interesting that the Piko works and not the Massoth. I'm guessing it's something the Massoth does that the Piko does not and not the other way around. For example, does the Massoth send a fast serial pulse vs regular serial pulse only? It might be worth him checking the settings on his Massoth central station.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Keith, 

I'm not going to do any more on this until I talk to Peter and get the current status of all this testing and the current results. 

As to the Massoth Central Station sending "fast serial pulses" - fast serial pulses were only sent between the LGB decoder and the LGB sound module when the LGB decoder was upgraded to "parallel" operation. 
The Massoth Cenral Station should never send "fast serial pulses", only the normal serial pulse chain or the standard NMRA DCC function commands (which were called "parallel" to distinguis that operation from the serial pulse chain). 

 Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My guess is difference in signal quality between the two. A DCC packet analyzer is a must here when debugging a problem like this... worth the money I paid... 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Had a long chat with Peter about this (and other things) yesterday. 

Still no clear understanding what actually causes the problem. 

He has now ripped out all the Aristo-Electronics, he was hoping to use the bare Aristo printed circuit board and has removed all electronics from it but found it too difficult to trace the copper paths so he is just going to use one of the vector boards with the copper strips on it. 

Since he has taken all the electronics off the Aristo board, I have no idea what components were on there that may be causing the problem; the one component we talked about a bit was the voltage regulator, but it is a standard three-terminal linear 7805CT and he actually had that removed at one point while testing and it made no difference. 

As to the difference between the Piko and Massoth central station, apparently the Piko includes some additional filtering in the output circuitry which is believed to suppress any interference coming from the Aristo board to the point where the Phoenix can detect the DCC signal. 
But that is just conjecture and we still have no clue what actually causes the interference - the interference, if that is what the problem is, is sufficient to cause a problem with the Phoenix decoder but not with the Digitrax decoder, both of which are picking up the same DCC signal. 

Peter has a second Aristo loco which he hasn't touched yet. 
He was going to send me a photograph of the board in that loco so we can at least see what components are on it that may contribute to the problem. 

Knut


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