# "(No) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

It was reported on the Goat and on the NGDF that, last night, someone apparently used an explosive (most probably dynamite) to seriously damage the Lobato bridge on the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad that runs from Chama, NM to Antonito, CO and was part of the D&RGW's narrow gauge line of which the Durango & Siverton was apart. There is a picture on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum but it's from a distance. Even still, the damage is real and the integrity of the bridge is obviously compromised! The C&TSRR is jointly operated by the states of NM and CO with funding always being one of their cheif concerns. Over the past few years the C&TSRR has made real improvement in their infrastructure and were to have had 4 operational K-36 steam locomotives running. Coincidentally, this is the 40th anniversary and celebrations with special runs were planned. How this will affect them (or possibly curtail them) is yet to be determined. I'm actually sickened about this! All this effort to preserve a priceless treasure for us and our children and someone decides to ruin it by blowing a bridge up for a lark!!! The repair costs will be enormous but the lost revenue will be devastating!! How long it will be down is not yet determined but in this economy it will be difficult if not impossible to justify to the various legislatures the necessity for continued funding! Happy 40th....


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

If the perps are caught, they should hang them from that trestle!
This is absolutely disgusting!
Repairs or replacements will be in the millions.


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## Darkrider (May 21, 2010)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Shouldn't they receive emergency funding from Both states? And if the perp is caught, should they also help pay for and help rebuild the bridge?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like *enviromental terrorism *to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group. 

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts. 

What if a road crew came over the bridge before they could be notified of the damage and it collapsed killing them, it would now be a murder investigation, this is a very serious event. No-one just dynamites a bridge without intent to harm. I hope the FBI is on the scene. 

(edit) Can someone please confirm if this was fire damage or an intentional attack?


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Maybe a bit alarmist. Current reports indicate that the explosion might have been fireworks going off and the damage may have been caused by a smoldering tie, Not sure where jebouck comes up with "millions" or Steve reports "most probably dynamite." 

It sure would be nice if folks would wait to learn the facts rather than post rumors in an attempt to be "first." I don't know what the facts are but I am going to wait and find out. Currently NDGF is suggesting that it may take a day or two to replace some ties but this is conjecture as well.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By CCSII on 24 Jun 2010 09:18 AM 
Maybe a bit alarmist. Current reports indicate that the explosion might have been fireworks going off and the damage may have been caused by a smoldering tie, Not sure where jebouck comes up with "millions" or Steve reports "most probably dynamite." 

It sure would be nice if folks would wait to learn the facts rather than post rumors in an attempt to be "first." I don't know what the facts are but I am going to wait and find out. Currently NDGF is suggesting that it may take a day or two to replace some ties but this is conjecture as well. 

Lets hope the damage is as minor as a few tie replacements and the cause was something less hostile than an intential explosives attack, I have been in fear of some enviromental terrorist group targeting steam engine tourist lines simply because they burn coal or oil. It is a very real possibility these days.


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## PapaPerk (Nov 7, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Here's the news. http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/local/northwest/train-trestle-burning-outside-of-chama


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Looking at the news video, there is absolutely no way fireworks caused that. The only thing that could cause rails to bend 45 degrees is a very powerful explosive. And note that they were set at the rail joints and no damage to the gaurd rails. This was done by somebody who knew exactly what they were doing.


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

It was probably just a smoldering tie that a cinder had landed on earlier that day. Creosole burns good and hot once it gets going. 

A 100' span of steel can expand some 7 inches under very high heat. A lot of steel used in buildings is treated to slow down this process. The rails, would most likely not have any kind of protection. Seeing a lot of commercial buildings fail under fire conditions it is easy to picture this. It wasn't the exposion that took down the Twin Towers, it was the fire and heat that caused expansion and failure of the steel within. 

With fire on both ends, I would expect that it would give somewhere. That was probably just a splice in the rail and the splice bar or bolts gave. An explosive would seem to have done some damage to the girder or some of the spans running perpendicular. 

Fortunately for the C&TS it looks as if the rest is still in tact. Hopefully after some tests and possibly ultrasounds are done, it will be ready to get new ties and rail. 

Matt


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## PapaPerk (Nov 7, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By Matt Z on 24 Jun 2010 02:04 PM 
It was probably just a smoldering tie that a cinder had landed on earlier that day. Creosole burns good and hot once it gets going. 

A 100' span of steel can expand some 7 inches under very high heat. A lot of steel used in buildings is treated to slow down this process. The rails, would most likely not have any kind of protection. Seeing a lot of commercial buildings fail under fire conditions it is easy to picture this. It wasn't the exposion that took down the Twin Towers, it was the fire and heat that caused expansion and failure of the steel within. 

With fire on both ends, I would expect that it would give somewhere. That was probably just a splice in the rail and the splice bar or bolts gave. An explosive would seem to have done some damage to the girder or some of the spans running perpendicular. 

Fortunately for the C&TS it looks as if the rest is still in tact. Hopefully after some tests and possibly ultrasounds are done, it will be ready to get new ties and rail. 

Matt 





I concur. An explosion would cause a 3 dimenisonal deformation of the rails and structure. The rails are neatly bent along a horizontal plane. Rail expansion makes the most sense. 

Great pic by the way!


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Der Ya Go another good reason to do away with 4th of July fireworks if it is found to be the cause!! The only ones that should be allowed are organized ones that are done by professionals, and are out and away from anything that could cause problems, and or at least they would have the means to put out a fire on site if organized. Every year its like a war zone around us, for 10 days we pick up all the left over trash from them in our front and back yards and we can hear the rockets hitting our roof, and the smoke from them come in our windows at nite so we close up the whole house. Not to mention what it does to pets, and ours who is not around anymore was terrified for the whole 10 days! It's sad, I'm for banning em permanently except for organized shows, that are out and away from everything, and everyone!! What you tink!! Regal


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Smoldering ties, I am skeptical. What I see from the aerial video has the damaged rail confined to one area. If simple smoldering ties get hot enough to bend rail like that, then why are the gaurd rails undamaged. That level of heat should deform the bridge girders too. About 30 feet to the right of the bent rail is where the fire stopped. My limited experience in heating steel is that it usually relaxes back quite a bit. It has to get really darn hot to stay deformed. I just can't see smoldering ties generating that kind of heat.

Certian explosives can be shaped to channel most of thier energy in one direction. For example, a standard US Army 15 pound shape charge pointed into the ground will cut a perfect 8 inch diameter hole about 10 feet deep. No big crater and very little splatter up in the air. We used to crudely fashion 8 oz charges in a soda can to poke neat dime sized holes in 1 inch aluminum plate.

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist, but this looks way too fishy. I just hope the forensics experts look at it.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

What a shame.... I got to ride over that bridge last year on the C&TS...and it became the prototype for the 5' tall bridge I'm going to build on my layout. I sure hope they repair the bridge. Looks like most of the ties were burnt out.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Yes the fire can and does cause damage like that. just like summer heat kinks your outdoor rails, that kinking in the rails could be from the fire heating the rails causing them to expand, push against each other and bend at the weak point joint where the fire was hottest, the inner guard rails only went as far as the bridge span, they could expand linearly and remain relativly straight, the outer rails had no where to expand to so they would push inward and then bend out like that. Not very surprising if you've seen fire damage like this before. The operational issue is whether the heat from the fire had damaged the main steel girders across the span, greatly heating steel expands the molecular structure and weakens it, heat it enough it begins to partially melt and deform, this is why steel skyscrapers have foam fire insulation on all exposed steel structure members. If the fire wasnt too extensive the repairs may only be replacing the ties and rails, worst case could mean replacing or strenthening the main span members.


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Spent some time working on steam railroads as well following along in the motor cars, we would find smoldering ties and small spot fires on the way home, about 3 hours after the last train had passed. And those were just little whifts of smoke. 

I believe that if it were an explosion centrally located in that vicinity it would have damaged all four rails not just the two main rails. It makes sense that the guard rails would not buckle since there is room for them to expand on either end. Where as the main's have 30 plus miles in each direction. 

Here is a pretty descriptive picture of what fire will do to ibeams, and how they'll stay once they have been exposed. 

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/woodbeambentsteel.jpg 

Matt


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Some dick (or dicks) set fire to the trestles on the Roaring Camp back in '74. A switchback bypass was installed and now, 36 years later, the trestles still haven't been replaced due to construction costs and outrageous insurance premiums. 









The train still rides past the burned out hulks. 










I was lucky and got to ride the Roaring Camp in the early 70's before the fire.


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## lincoln pin (Feb 24, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Check out the photos at this link: 
http://www.ctsrrphotos.com/photogalleries/2010galleries/june/06-23-10lobatotrestle/lobatotrestle.htm 
It looks like the ties and anything else combustible was fully involved. Lots of heat in there. The daylight pictures show the aftermath as a smoldering fire. 
Mike Anderson


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## S.B.A. (Jul 19, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I hate to jump into this thread so late, but from what i have read on this subject, the fire very well could have been started by a cinder, or fireworks; we wont know until later. The rail that is kinked is due to the expansion of the rail, the guard rails were seemingly untouched because they have much more room to expand. It is important not to jump to conclusions, the C&TS has had its share of dilemmas, and i am 100% positive the Railroad can get over this obstacle.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

In response to CCII's admonition about "spreading rumors just to be first," let me say that I was merely reporting what had _already_ been posted on the NGDF and the Goat! _According to them _there were reports of a large explosion and the poster on the NGDF said dynamite. Since I was not there and I am not ATF or FBI or Homeland Security or NTSB or any other acronym agency that might have jurisdiction _I just related what was posted_. The original posting has since been edited and the dynamite reference has been changed to a "fire in the ties." I sincerely hope it _was_ something stupid like fireworks that got out of hand and only caused minor damage to the Lobato trestle! As far as "needing to be first?" _Please!!







_


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Thanks for the info, Steve.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

nt


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

For quite a bit of info there is a long thread on the NGDF. It may not be as serious as first thought! (One can only hope!!)


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Perhaps it is premature to say, but if anyone was thinking of riding the C&TS, now is the time to go, do so and show your financial support, provided that scheduling can be re established. The Lobato to Antonito part of the ride that I had was a day-long, fabulous trip behind a Mikado. 

Just my 2 cents 

TL


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

The train's still running from Antonito to Osier, and they're offering bus service from Chama in the mean time. Not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly better than not running at all. From what we had tonight in the 6pm newscast, they expect to be out for at least 3 weeks at a minimum. 

Later, 

K


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Not sure who CCSII is. Apparently doesn't have a real name. 

Has CCSII ever paid to have a bridge re-built, or replaced entirely? No, I guess not.
From the pictures, it looks pretty much a heavy loss, if not total.

That's where I come up with millions, whomever you are, CCSII

John E Bouck


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

John,
It's really not that way! CCII made a good point in that what I reported was essentially "gossip" that was posted on the Goat and the NGDF. He had an opinion which I essentially agree with in that it _would_ be better if people took a little more time before posting everything they hear and double-check their "facts!" In retrospect, I could have waited an hour or so to get more "official" news from Chama!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Somebody has to be "first"!


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I have a name. I choose to sign my posts CCSII. Unless the laws have changed that is still legal and allowed on this board. Once before a poster took me to task for signing my posts "CCSII" and the moderator pointed out that I was well within the rules of the board.

Apparently Mr. Bouck has "paid to have a bridge re-built, or replaced entirely?" and feels that all other posters on this thread have as well as he excoriates me for having not, (he guesses.) I am eager to hear his expert opinion, or any other poster's expert opinion on the matter. I don't see a heavy loss. It will take metallurgists looking at the bridge in person and not G-Scalers looking at pictures to determine the loss. 

If indeed as is currently being reported it will only take three weeks to get it back into operation that is wonderful, and far short of the disasters still being touted by some. No life loss, no serious injury (or any injury as far as I can tell,) and only three weeks down sounds good to me.I have been riding the C&T since its second year of operation and proudly support it, its operators, and its mission.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Very well. I officially retract my theory that someone used explosives. And I will discount the fact that I used to "play" with that stuff in a prior life. And I will discount the fact that I took just enough math and physics in college to be dangerous. But before I totally jump on the "smoldering ties" made a pratzel out of that rail bandwagon, I invite you to review the brief course on coefficients of thermal expansion. The metric rate of steel expansion is 0.000016 meters per meter per degree C. The English rate is 0.0000073 inches per inch per degree F. Don't mix the units of measure or you get a wrong answer. Assuming no compression resistance, you would have to raise the temperature of a 100 foot long steel bar uniformly from it's current temp by another 685F to get it to expand 6 inches.

Man, those smoldering ties must have got really hot.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/l..._1379.html


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Check out this picture Bob: 

http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/img/uploaded/Lobato%20Trestle%20Night1(2).jpg 

I have about the same amount of dangerous math and physics and am not saying you are right or wrong.


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Creosote has an ignition temperature of 451 degrees. Coal cinders can have temperatures from 750 to 1000 degrees. 

Ah yes, like I had said before, steel will expand, and in this case at 685 degrees it will expand 6 inches, lets take the burning rate of creosote at 2000 degrees and I'll let you do the math. 

Matt


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

No explosion unless you used a shaped charge and a barrier to keep it away from the guard rails and did the same thing on each side... and explosions don't always cause fires. 

I vote for burning ties and compressed rails. 

Regards, Greg 

(and I have a degree in Physics and the heat from the fire with creosote and hardwood can make a nice hot fire)


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I may as well throw my theory in the ring as well. I think there are several who have hit close to the mark. 

Lets set a couple of parameters. I am not sure of the length of the Lobato Bridge, but it appears to be about 400 to 500 feet long, for discussion I will use 400. Lets also assume that the rail is fixed on both ends (it really is as there is no expansion joints and the rail on grade is NOT going to move). The coefficient of expansion for steel has previously been established at .0000073 inches per inch of length per degree of temperature rise (imperial units). 400 feet x 12 inches =4,800 inches on the bridge. Lets also assume that the burning temperature of creosoted ties is something on the order of 800 degrees. So the total expansion under these conditions is 4,800 lineal inches x 730 degrees x .0000073 = 24.528 inches of expansion over the length of the bridge. (730 degrees in the equation is the differential temperature rise between ambient of 70 degrees and the burning ties.) 

As best as I can see in the pictures, there are no holes in the rail at the fracture point, leading me to believe the rail failed under heat stress. The second logic for rail failure is that the rail would have been straight for the distance of the splice bars due to the additional strength the splice bars would have afforded the rail, forcing the rail to bend at the end of the splice bar not as the rail is. According to the American Institute of Steel Construction, steel begins to weaken at 650 degrees. Assuming that the fire started at this spot and therefore this spot weakened first, this would be the logical location for the expansion to exert itself. Could the expansion cause the type of damage displayed? I believe it could have given the 'Just Right' set of circumstances. As for the guard rails not deforming, they are not anchored on the ends allowing them to float freely. 

If I were the C&TS I would have the upper flange and upper part of the web of the main girders tested for strength before putting new rail and ties on that structure. I don't see the lower portion being affected as the fire would have caused an natural draft of cool air across the lower part of the beams. The rail should be considered so much scrap. 

As for the source of the ignition, I am sure there are many possibilities and an investigation should be initiated. 

My Tuppence worth. 

Bob C.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

pix here: http://www.the-ashpit.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=932


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Freedom Central Investigators were called in to assist in this investigation. After a careful ten minute examination of all evidence, it is the official determination of the FCR personnel on scene that this was caused by the exhaust plume of a flying saucer landing on the trestle and then taking off again a few minutes later.

Case closed.









Seriously, the important thing is that it appears that the damage is repairable and most important: NO ONE WAS HURT!

Steam engines, though expensive, can be rebuilt & replaced. A person is finite.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Three points come to mind: first, that I'm really glad that nobody was hurt and that the Lobato trestle is a steel structure (it would have been a total loss if it had been made of wood); second, that I sincerely hope this was some kind of freak accident and _not_ deliberate sabotage(!) and third, that those brave volunteer firefighters that tackled this fire deserve all of our heartfelt thanks!!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By Steve Stockham on 24 Jun 2010 08:16 AM 
It was reported on the Goat....


Steve, 
You actually read THAT rubbish? Hope you have an industrial duty bulls--t detector. Jay's reality sometimes isn't quite the same as everyone else's.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

You can see heat damage and expansion on the rail in this picture, so the rail was definitely deforming and pushed around, also there might have been a big draft going across the bridge and you coal and spirits fired guys know what happens when you increase draft, HEAT!











This is a fun discussion, forensics from pictures, but until people go there in person with the right equipment, we are all just doing "bench forensics" lol (like bench racing hehe) (even though on a side note of only visiting the place once, it makes my heart sink whenever anything happens to any of my favorite railroads.)


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Here's a before photo of that bridge deck...taken by me last year. There's a LOT of wood burnt away. That bridge was almost completely decked. The spaces between the ties was just a few inches...maybe only 2". Look at the photo below...and the one above....BIG difference.










Also...the rail deformation you see in the photo in the last post...is likely further distorted by heat rising from the burning ties. In the video, the two center rails are not bent much...but in this photo, you can see severe bending. I think that's from heat rising between the camera and the bridge.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I received this memo from the Cumbres & Toltec this morning by e-mail.

http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/img/up...se%203.pdf

We should know more in the next couple of days.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Mike... are you sure that isn't Cascade?
Posted By Mike Reilley on 25 Jun 2010 10:29 PM 
Here's a before photo of that bridge deck...


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Yep...you're right. My photo is of the Cascade Trestle. But....as far as I recall, it's construction was identical to the Lobato Trestle....cept, Lobato is straight.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Does anyone know if just the ties and track are damage or is the whole structure damaged.


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## fendercat (Dec 27, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group. 

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts. 


Shouldn't you be watching Fox news instead of posting inane rants? And PITA? Do you mean PETA? An animal wellfare org that has nothing to do with the environment. Yikes.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Structural engineers have been out to survey the trestle and their report is supposed to be in the hands of the comissioners by the end of the week. The ties and rail are a complete write-off. How much damage to the actual structure will have to wait for the report.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By fendercat on 27 Jun 2010 11:25 PM 
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group. 

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts. 




Shouldn't you be watching Fox news instead of posting inane rants? And PITA? Do you mean PETA? An animal wellfare org that has nothing to do with the environment. Yikes. 




Oh my, a first poster and miffed about PITA. 
Rant on:
Yes PETA my mistake, *P*eople for the *E*ating of *T*asty *A*nimals







, I was only commenting on the initial post, and having lived in an area that has had car dealerships and housing developments burned by the knucklehaeds in ELF I would not have been surprised if this had been a deliberate attack, which prompted my initial comments based only on the info avaliable at that the time of the initial post, fortunatly it looks to have been an accidental fire and have modified my stance since then, read the rest of the posts please before commenting. 

(edit) most of my PITA rant removed )

I like this quote:
"To those people who say, `My father is alive because of animal experimentation,’ I say `Yeah, well, good for you. This dog died so your father could live.’ Sorry, but I am just not behind that kind of trade off."
Bill Maher, Endorser of PETA - US magazine (February 1, 1999), When Ol' Bill gets sick and needs the latest greatest treatment that was perfected by animal testing or uses animal by-products as ingrediants, do you think he will just roll over and die and make room for the next generation, or use every medical trick in the book regardless of what animal testing proceedures or by-products were used to perfect that treatment in order to gain a few more years here? yep I thought so too, they will always choose life over dogma, and rightly so.

Someone should explain to Bill that one of PETAs Executives is diabetic and takes insulin, that was the result of years of animal testing (edit) so I guess its a case of whats wrong for you is OK for them.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Vic, 

I am a DAILY user of Humalog insulin in my Insulin Pump. I guess it would be considered a "synthetic" insulin in your context. But as far as I know this insulin is cloned from HUMAN insulin-no animals are involved. The "old" insulin was made from insulin taken from beef and pork in the stockyards. When the supply was running low about twenty years ago, research was done with "recombinant DNA"-DNA from two or more sources that do not normally combine. Just to set the record straight. Now lets get this thread back to Lobato Trestle and what can be done to get the Cumbres and Toltec back to operating again. DERAIL FIXED!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By vsmith on 24 Jun 2010 09:17 AM 
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like *enviromental terrorism *to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group. 

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts. 

What if a road crew came over the bridge before they could be notified of the damage and it collapsed killing them, it would now be a murder investigation, this is a very serious event. No-one just dynamites a bridge without intent to harm. I hope the FBI is on the scene. 

(edit) Can someone please confirm if this was fire damage or an intentional attack?

Just because it's someone's first post, it does not mean he cannot say something intelligent.

On the the "wild ass rant factor", I score your post pretty darn high. You could have stated that you wondered IF it was a terrorist attack ....

No, you say it "sounds more like", then proceed to go off the deep end on and on, just like your response just above... tons of words about PETA and environment conscious people.

Nope, the "reactive words" are in your posts Victor. Way too much "gain" on something purely speculative... 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 28 Jun 2010 10:11 AM 
Posted By vsmith on 24 Jun 2010 09:17 AM 
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like *enviromental terrorism *to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group. 

*IF *it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts. 

What if a road crew came over the bridge before they could be notified of the damage and it collapsed killing them, it would now be a murder investigation, this is a very serious event. No-one just dynamites a bridge without intent to harm. I hope the FBI is on the scene. 

(edit) Can someone please confirm if this was fire damage or an intentional attack?[/b]

Just because it's someone's first post, it does not mean he cannot say something intelligent.

On the the "wild ass rant factor", I score your post pretty darn high. You could have stated that you wondered IF it was a terrorist attack ....

No, you say it "sounds more like", then proceed to go off the deep end on and on, just like your response just above... tons of words about PETA and environment conscious people.

Nope, the "reactive words" are in your posts Victor. Way too much "gain" on something purely speculative... 

Greg 



Ahhhh Greg, kindly see my red marks above, I kinda did imply just that when I said IF it was an attack, then as more info come online asked for confirmation whether it was accidental or intentional damage...

And to the rest of the fine folks here, Sorry about the PITA rant, kinda a sore spot for me. I have edited out_ most _of my post, but not all of it. 

Anyway I'm going to count myself out of this conversation, lest I get myself into even more trouble for having a certain position.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Yes, I did read that, and you did ADD that later... but honestly, your post still reads overractive and like a rant... 

I was more reacting to your PETA rant (not PITA)....I think it was misplaced. Not wrong. Misplaced. So it looked like a long attack on a person. 

(by the way, I completely agree with your point of view !!!! ) 

Regards, Greg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

http://www.cumbrestoltec.org/cgi-bin/news.pl?read=653


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By afinegan on 25 Jun 2010 11:17 AM 
You can see heat damage and expansion on the rail in this picture, so the rail was definitely deforming and pushed around, also there might have been a big draft going across the bridge and you coal and spirits fired guys know what happens when you increase draft, HEAT!











This is a fun discussion, forensics from pictures, but until people go there in person with the right equipment, we are all just doing "bench forensics" lol (like bench racing hehe) (even though on a side note of only visiting the place once, it makes my heart sink whenever anything happens to any of my favorite railroads.)



Thermal expansion calculations are based on a couple of things. First is uniform and complete heat of the entire object. I don't know how heavy the rail is or how long or how hot the fire burned to cause the required level of heat. Second, expansion assumes no other forces acting on the object. The rail is spiked down to the ties, and it is resisted on the ende by the ajoining rails. You can't automaticall assume a 100' length of rail raised 685 debrees plus the ambient temp will expand 6" if there is resistance.

Don't use the fact that creosote burns at 2000 degrees to draw a conclusion. If that rail got heated unifromly to 2000 degrees, then it is likely the whole span should be severely heat damaged and should be condemned. 

Based on Andy's photo, I still wonder why the gaurd rails are not similarly damged. Their bends appear to be more uniform over the length.

I saw the photo of the fire. And there is youtube video out too ( http://www.youtube.com/user/ctsrrvideos) Man, them ties burn hot, don't they.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Bob, 

The fact is you CAN GUARANTEE it will expand the 6" in your example. It is simply a question of where the expansion will go. Your assumption the the ends are fixed is correct. Please read my post on page two of this thread. 

I also addressed the lesser damage to the guard rails - they are free to move linearly along the length (only constrained by the friction of the spikes and ties). 

I understand there is an engineering company doing a damage assay to determine the extent of the damages. I will wait and see.... 

Bob C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

_*Lightening . . . *_

This time of year in Colorado/N.M. high country afternoon thunder storms with lightening are pretty common and often sever, sometimes afternoons a few days in a row. I grew up in Colorado late spring and summer I remember driving in the mountains having to pull to side of the road the rain, such a deluge and so hard, you could not see the car in front of you. Waited it out, staying in the car to be reasonably safe. The Lobato bridge is steel girder with I-beam steel bents and wood decking only. If I remember correctly from riding C&TS only the deck is wood laid atop the steel girders with little or no wood below or between the girders (no matter); Given only the deck is wood a deck fire would not seem, save only some possible minor rail warp, to cause this destruction.


Some visual notes from the *Ashpit.com photos.  *


1. The wood at the point of sever rail damage is where ties burned through. The rail also deform down, I believe, consistent with a strike from above.


2. The destruction also appears to be roughly in the center of the bridge length, also I think would be consistent with lightening attracted to a steel span in a large open ground area. The steel also being more conductive than earth on either side. The scientists, engineers and phyists will ahve to seight in on this point - never the less, I still vote for the source of the damage being lightening.


3. The fire appears to have burned from the point of rail damage out toward either end, with wind direction why one end burned less. 
4. Concerning vandalism, who would crawl out to the center of the bridge, to the highest point above the ground, under the pressure of committing a crime and potential/paranoia of getting caught. 

The bridge was suspect to begin with with double headed locos separated, only one over the bridge at a time. Given damage, push-(may have)-come-to-shove with structural/civil engineers declaring any repairs had to address both damage and safety. But it sounds like, a return to service in a short time, it's been determined that only the deck will have to be replaced.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Chris, 

I had not considered lightning as a source of ignition, but based on your version blended with the version of 'an explosion', it makes very good sense. 

1. I agree that the point of ignition is where the greatest rail damage and most complete burn of the ties is located, but I don't agree with any downward deformation of the rail. 

2. As for the location of a lightning strike, I have no evidence of the logic you propose. I fact, there are hundreds of cases where power companies have located lightning rods to protect their equipment and the strike has been anyplace but the lightning rod. The more or less centered location is a fluke in my opinion. 

3 & 4. Your assumption/logics are relatively sound. 

As for the rail damage, power companies and chemical companies that use steam or other sources of HOT fluids spend thousands of dollars on their piping systems to make certain that the pipes do not over stress and fail from thermal expansion. Earlier in this thread I ran through the math using a 400 foot span and a 730 degree temperature rise leading to over 24" of thermal expansion. If I factor the heat to the alleged 2,000 degrees burning temperature of creosote ties, the expansion becomes 67.62 inches. That is over five feet. 

It is my belief that as the rail heated, the spikes in the burning ties restrained the rail from buckling. As the fire burned longer and the rail got hotter, the stress of the thermal expansion got greater until the spikes at the origin point of the fire failed. When they failed all the pressure from the expansion was released at one point forcing the rail outward making the 'blister' shape in the rail. The intense heat also lowered the tensile strength enough that the sudden release also whiplashed causing the rail to physically fail (break) at the point of highest bending. 

My background is in mechanical/structural engineering (no I am not an engineer), but have spend many years around air pollution control equipment on the boiler exhaust of steel mills and power plants and have a fair amount of experience with thermal expansion and heat related issues. As I said earlier, thermal expansion WILL GO SOMEWHERE. In this case, the point of failure. My greater concern is the girder structure itself. If in fact the ties burned that hot, there will be temperature related damage to the top flange and upper portion of the web plate. According to the American Institute of Steel Construction, steel begins to weaken (loose tensile strength) at 650 degrees, far less than the 2,000 degrees related above. Depending on how much damage, it may be possible to add additional reinforcing to the existing structure to make it again safe for rail traffic. 

As for the bridge being suspect, two factors come to mind. First, it was designed and installed before the 'K' series of locomotives were put into service. Second, it has been in service for how many years??? It surely is not of current design or materials. I believe it is a testament to the engineers of the day that it is still in service at all, let alone to have a restriction that only one locomotive pushing the limits of the design being allowed on the bridge at a time. For my money, if it needs to be replaced, rebuild it EXACTLY the way it is. It is safe for one locomotive which is the normal consist for the line. Only on special occasions are double or triple headers run, which just means special rules for the run. More fun for the rail fan. 

I would also be interested in the source of your information regarding the replacement of only the decking. I have not seen any such information. Gary Armistead posted a memo from the Cumbres and Toltec regarding the evaluation of the bridge, and I am sure they will publish a statement after the evaluation is done. If you have an official statement from the Cumbres and Toltec, please share it with us. 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Thanks Gary for posting that MEMO. I thought they had positively determined that it was sabatoge. Now I wonder if it could have been lighing.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

It is more probable for lightning to strike where a lightning rod is NOT, than where one IS. A lightning rod is not designed to conduct a lightning bolt/strike! It is designed to slowly dissipate the electrical charge over time and thus PREVENT the lightning strike from occurring. Thus where there are no lightning rods there is a greater chance of a lightning strike. Since lightning rods are generally at the highest point in a general area, it can be struck by a bolt if the charge builds up faster than it can be dissipated, so they are often of large and heavy construction. But even so, in the process of conducting millions of Volts and thousands of Amps, major portions of the material can be vaporized. An effective lightning rod does not really need to be of heavy construction (electrically), it only needs to be structurally sound (so it won't blow away or fall down due to wind), have a good, large area, electrical connection with the ground, and sharp points on the upper end.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Last year after the NGRC in Denver, my wife and I went to Chama and spent a couple nites in a wonderful B&B across the street from the yard. We rode 484 out of Chama. I had the only seat on the back platform of the Parlor Car. Most of my photos were taken from between the marker light and the side of the car. Below are my photos crossing the Laboto Tressle. Looking back, you can see the trestle is not far off the main road. See truck in background.





































I truly hope it is minimal and thank all those invovled in extinguishing the fire. This is my favorite railroad and want it to survive for all future generations.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

O.K. I guess I will have to put my uninformed ideas in (I am a mathematician, not an engineer). 
Looking at the deformation of the rails I had a thought (always a dangerous thing). Could it be that the running rails, being on the outside, heated unevenly across the rail? Thus the inside expanded faster than the outside and forced the rails outwards. While the guard rails being on the inside of the fire heated more evenly across the rails, making them expand evenly and thus not being forced to move sideways. Could this explain the two types of deformity? 
As I said, when I get a thought it is dangerous.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Dangerous thinking... 
From my observations heating silver and gold fot 25 years... the side exposed to heat grows faster than the other side... 

My theory; Fire creates updrafts and the box girder structure limited the updraft around the gaurd rails so they didn't get as excited as the mains. The updrafts outside the box span burned hotter and forced the rails that couldn't expand off the bridge ends to go for the side. Red hot metal cracks very easily. My early years at the bench unfortunately confirmed this! 

John


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

_Fire damages historic trestle on Cumbres line[/b] _[/b] 
Cumbres and Toltec operations out of Chama Depot suspended as officials investigate cause of blaze 

.
.
.
"Two New Mexico state fire marshal's office investigators were on the scene Thursday looking into what might have sparked the fire — everything from stray embers to arson — although lightning has been ruled out. New Mexico State Police are also conducting an inquiry."


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

heard today that the metal part of the bridge is ok so it just needs deck and rail ......

3 week to 3 months to fix


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Nope: The report presented to Chama city council and published on the Friends of railroad web site is that the structure has damage to the metal. The bridge is wrought iron,not cast iron or steel- and is riveted together. While it can be repaired, they are now recommending replacement of entire structure, unknown 100 year old metal properties and other factors contributed to this conclusion. 

major setback.. 
Jonathan/EMW


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

The latest from Chama...

http://www.cumbrestoltec.org/cgi...ev=657


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Stan, 

Thanks for posting that link. Sadly, this is what I was expecting based on the prior post relative to the burning temperature of creosote. For all of us nostalgia types, I hope the replacement will look exactly like the original (except without the rivets unfortunately). It can be engineered to do that. 

As an aside, one possible source of revenue for the replacement span might be to sell or auction pieces of the original span. NASCAR does this now and again with pieces of wrecked race cars to raise funds for various charitable organizations. Why not here?? 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By armorsmith on 02 Jul 2010 01:48 PM 
Stan, 

Thanks for posting that link. Sadly, this is what I was expecting based on the prior post relative to the burning temperature of creosote. For all of us nostalgia types, I hope the replacement will look exactly like the original (except without the rivets unfortunately). It can be engineered to do that. 

As an aside, one possible source of revenue for the replacement span might be to sell or auction pieces of the original span. NASCAR does this now and again with pieces of wrecked race cars to raise funds for various charitable organizations. Why not here?? 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C. 
Hey Bob 

There is a link in one of the attachemnts telling us where to send money and such....Why don't you E mail them with your suggestion. I think it is a great suggestion


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I just finished doing just that.  

Bob C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By armorsmith on 02 Jul 2010 01:48 PM 
Stan, 

Thanks for posting that link. Sadly, this is what I was expecting based on the prior post relative to the burning temperature of creosote. For all of us nostalgia types, I hope the replacement will look exactly like the original (except without the rivets unfortunately). It can be engineered to do that. 

As an aside, one possible source of revenue for the replacement span might be to sell or auction pieces of the original span. NASCAR does this now and again with pieces of wrecked race cars to raise funds for various charitable organizations. Why not here?? 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C. 

Hard for me to see parts of the bridge garnering much. But... Those pieces of rail that took the biggest hit, particularly the fractured or broken rail sections I think would fetch a very pretty penny. Particularly if the offering is for the pair of fractured rail. Mounted appropriately on a Walnut Plaque with brass plate. Second most valuable would be the bent inter guard rail.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Will be quit a task to replace the bridge. If the steel structure is as bad as one says the cost goes up considerably. Let hope they can get a good bridge inspector and hopefully get some good news. From reading they have not got to this point just a lot of speculation. Later RJD


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

RJ 

It sure will be quite a task. In my opinion (based on many years in bag house and precipitator industry) the span will need to be replaced. If, as has been alleged, creosote ties burn a approximately 2,000 degrees, then I believe the integrity of the wrought iron used to manufacture the original span has been compromised. After the Twin Tower collapses after the airline impacts, the American Institute of Steel Construction (the governing body over structural steel engineering) reduced the threashold at which steel begins to loose strength from 750 to 650 degrees F. Even with the natural updraft through the structure the top flange and upper portion of web of the girders would have seen at a minimum the 650 degree point, and most likely much higher. It is also my belief that the support structures are most likely not damaged, however if one is going to replace a bridge span with a new span of higher capability, it would also be a good idea to replace the support bents as well. I have no doubt in my mind that the overall appearance of the span can be duplicated (with the exception of the rivets) with out any additional cost to the engineering or manufacture. 

You are correct that I am technically speculating, but it is based on experience and engineering knowledge, not guess work. Could I be wrong - YES - and I pray that I am. I would like nothing more that to see the original Lobato span preserved. However, the safety of the railroad personnel and the paying railfan must be kept foremost on the priority list. 

Even with the modern computer software engineers have at their fingertips, I would estimate at least two weeks for the engineering and checking, another couple of weeks for the detailing and checking, and probably a couple of months for fabrication, delivery and installation. Depending on the environmental impact, installation could be the longest. Obviously the cost would be considerable to replace the span, but the integrity of the entire experience would be compromised with out it. 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By armorsmith on 28 Jun 2010 04:32 PM 

...As for the bridge being suspect, two factors come to mind. First, it was designed and installed before the 'K' series of locomotives were put into service. Second, it has been in service for how many years??? It surely is not of current design or materials. I believe it is a testament to the engineers of the day that it is still in service at all, let alone to have a restriction that only one locomotive pushing the limits of the design being allowed on the bridge at a time. For my money, if it needs to be replaced, rebuild it EXACTLY the way it is. It is safe for one locomotive which is the normal consist for the line. Only on special occasions are double or triple headers run, which just means special rules for the run. More fun for the rail fan. 

I would also be interested in the source of your information regarding the replacement of only the decking. I have not seen any such information. Gary Armistead posted a memo from the Cumbres and Toltec regarding the evaluation of the bridge, and I am sure they will publish a statement after the evaluation is done. If you have an official statement from the Cumbres and Toltec, please share it with us. 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C 


Bob: 

A bit tardy from your posting but thought you might be interested in this.


Cumbres & Toltec railroad scenic railroad: The Historic Preservation Study: PG 38-40:[/b] 



Laboto Trestle:
(some portions paraphrased)

"On the steepest grade... on the line the Laboto Trestle... 310 ft long and 100 ft. high iron trestle of five 54ft deck-plate-girder spans and one 40 ft. span, supported by five riveted bents with masonry abutments and footings. ...built by Keystone Bridge Company. There is no builder's plate on the bridge. Labato span was installed in 1883. A temporary timber trestle was used until the permanent bridge was finished."

"(today) Original structure with some improvements over the years, i.e., heavier timbers, walkway (1945)."

"1913: Larger heavier locomotive introduced. DG&RW introduced operating rules carrying prohibitions against more than one of the big engines crossing the bridge at one time."

"Rule 19: …K-36 and K-37 class locomotives must not be double headed over Bridge 339,78, Laboto Trestle…"

"Generally, double-headed trains customarily ran with the engines separated, at least by a few cars, to avoid stopping at the bridge. The number of cars sufficient between… permitted only one engine at a time on the bridge at a time."

"More recent years excursion trains are operated with both locomotives together at the head end. This meant that had to stop in order to allow the first locomotive to cross the bridge ahead of it, and separate from, the train. It is a slower procedure but it does permit the detaching of the helper engine at Cumbres and is of interest to tourists." (The helper engine then returns to Chama.) 


(Separately)
WRT your post immediately above on a replacement schedule. I think your schedule estimate is quite optimistic given how public engineering project must be approached and progress now-a-days. For no other reason than the number of municipal agencies and city, state, and possibly federal regulatory laws, rules and agencies that will or may be involved, not to mention contract bidding, letting, construction, etc. Last but by no means last, the time to raise the moneys. IMHO, best case Spring-Summer 2011. It's not 1883 any longer.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

*Headlines: *



_Engineers Suggest Replacing Chama-Area RR Trestle_[/b] 



_Cumbres Railroad takes its little engine for a ride: Trains may start running from Cumbres Pass soon as officials work to determine cause of fire[/b] _


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Chris, 

As for the 'Optimism' of my schedule you are correct in that I referenced 'Ideal' conditions. Those being no lack of funding, an engineering firm ready to put all their resources on this one project until completion, no government interference with ridiculous regulations, etc. I fully understand that first and foremost, financing is going to be the biggest obstacle to the complete replacement. I do believe as stated above that the bents should be reusable if so desired. 

Not being part of the evaluation, all my comments are really so much smoke in the breeze, but based on personal experience and work history. I have said my piece for the time being, until the official report is released from the Cumbres and Toltec. 

Thanks for the information regarding the Lobato tresstle regarging construction and operational rules imposed by the railroads involved. I knew there were restrictions, just not the details. 

Regards, 

Bob C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By armorsmith on 04 Jul 2010 02:39 PM 
Chris, 

As for the 'Optimism' of my schedule you are correct in that I referenced 'Ideal' conditions. Those being no lack of funding, an engineering firm ready to put all their resources on this one project until completion, no government interference with ridiculous regulations, etc. I fully understand that first and foremost, financing is going to be the biggest obstacle to the complete replacement. I do believe as stated above that the bents should be reusable if so desired. 

Not being part of the evaluation, all my comments are really so much smoke in the breeze, but based on personal experience and work history. I have said my piece for the time being, until the official report is released from the Cumbres and Toltec. 

Thanks for the information regarding the Lobato tresstle regarging construction and operational rules imposed by the railroads involved. I knew there were restrictions, just not the details. 

Regards, 

Bob C. 



Bob:
I don't mean to be argumentative, I really not trying to be. I just am having a hard time reconciling your mentioning your, "...experience and engineering knowledge, not guess work", and "...personal experience and work history" with your "...Ideal conditions timeframe" 

I like ideal things as much as the next fellow but in this case we are talking about a very real world situation. So if we say "ideal" that has to mean in a real world context or there is no reality and everyone goes away with the wrong impression of the real scope of the project. The trestle project would have a Best Case, Worst Case and Middle Ground schedules and timelines. The Best Case would be Ideal if everything goes exactly to schedule. 

There are so many steps in a building project of this size, the more so being a public transportation project. Let's talk about all the up front work we haven't covered; civil engineer's site survey, possibly a soil engineer, maybe a geologist, their reports and reviews. Then design and structural engineering and fabrication plans including the time for transportation of the prefabricated parts to the site. 

A big hurdle we did not cover at all is the construction permits process. I have never seen a plans review permit process with inspectors, code compliance, etc., without at best a few edits and revisions back and forth. The permit process may have to go to Albuquerque (for a state permit) since it's a public transportation project. What about a Colorado review, they are half owners, no? Yet another variable, inspections during construction. 

I hope this gives some added meat to the skeleton of what's involved in this type of a project and developing a overall plan. I can guarantee a high bill for Tylenol and possibly for medicinal alcohol as well from start to finish.

If the trestle is replaced don't you think it's a good bet it will be structurally designed so two locomotives can cross together. Probably there would outwardly little visual difference? This could represent enough time savings with each run allowing C&TS to add a short route run during peak season operations with its long days. C&TS' revenue would grow, or at least make up some of the lost revenue over time.

Don't you think a replacement bridge will be welded with rivet detail a cosmetic addition, the same with the deck girders?

Wouldn't the ties be something other than creosote? Aren't there alternatives to it now-a-days that would not represent the burn hazard? 


The conclusion here has to be, for this trestle rebuild project, the "Ideal" schedule means meeting or exceeding what has been determined to be, after consultation with all relevant parties, the realistic Best Case schedule scenario.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Rumors I heard over the 4th of July. Apparently there were some employees of a nearby hotel that were fired because of drug use, not too long before the fire. I also heard that kerosene was found near the trestle.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Jim, 

That is terrible news, and if true, I hope they catch and prosecute the individuals to the fullest extent. 

Chris, 

Reread my previous post where I said 'no interference with funding, government regs, etc'. My intention was to indicate a 'Camelot' scenario, where everything goes exactly according to the plan/schedule without the political intervention that can waylay even the most rudimentary project. 

Keep in mind that the new structural engineering softwares are incorporating both the structural analysis and the drafting of the details into one comprehensive package. (I think they are trying to do away with the old timey draftsman.) Once the data is input into the software, it crunches along (VERY QUICKLY). Please keep in mind that the structures I am familiar with are electrostatic precipitators on the power boilers of power plants where a small one will weigh 250,000 pounds and supported 50 feet in the air with 50 foot high side walls to catch the Florida wind zone 3 requirements. From my background this bridge span is relatively small in comparison. Given all the known information, the design of the precipitator and structure supporting it will take 2-3 days to input and maybe 1-2 days to review the results. The company I worked for only used a structural package, not the big combined packages, so I was the detailer who made the fabrication details (I wish we had the big programs). All the input data is readily available (far more so than when they did the original engineering) that it should not take more than a couple of days to do the input and analysis. 

In years past I have contracted out over a half million pounds of steel and had it fabricated in about 2 months. If the shop is large enough and geared to that kind of fabrication it is possible to fabricate the project in a very concentrated time line. None of the items you mentioned as obstacles are unreal, I chose not to go into that much detail as it really didn't make any difference. And as I said, until the final reports are in, all we are doing is blowing smoke in the breeze. However, as you so aptly pointed out, the politics could waylay this for many months, even years. 

As for the 'rivet detail', although I would love to see it if the span must be replace, the cost for the 'cosmetic' rivets would be far too prohibitive. I will be completely satisfied it they maintain the overall appearance as is. The most costly of the analysis will be if they decide to review the existing bents to determine if they can be salvaged in place and re-used. The cost there (I believe) will be running the structural analysis on the existing structure with modern input data and confirming the material condition (corrosion not fire damage). As for designing for double headers, absolutely (I see in previous posts where I fumble fingered my intended statement). 

Now I will have to move this trip lower in the bucket list pile. 

TTFN 

Bob C.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

This thread's starting to look and sound like the Lilly and the Goat! Suggestion: check over on those forums for up-to-date info as to what the commission will do. Speculating about when and what is all over the place right now as NO decision has been made yet! As soon as definitive info is posted rest assured that it will be relayed here!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Some of you just do not understand the "JOY OF SPECULATION". Some folk speculate in stocks, some in Hollywood marriages, some in political outcomes, and others in Engineering quandries. Ever heard of an "Armchair Quarterback" or "TV Coaching"? What about that Football office game where people select players from various teams to form teams and then pit their team of misfits against the guy's in the other cubicle, using stats from the previous weekend games? 
Yes, sometimes the speculation goes too far... what if the trestle was hit by a laser ray from a rogue Klingon ship? But if you don't like the odd engineering speculation, don't read 'em. 
Sometimes I learn something useful from these "speculations" and sometimes I get a good chuckle. 
You do realize that the I-35W bridge that collapsed in Minneapolis, MN was rebuilt in record time for ANY such project... they "got it done" despite rules and permitting and reviews... of course that does not mean the new bridge is any good... or might get shot down by a rogue Klingon ship (again).


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

What?!! It wasn't the Klingons? Damn! 

Greg


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

You guys that keep speculating about Lobato Bridge and the Cumbres and Toltec, really need to frequent THIS site, http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/list.php?1

more often. Enough with the rumors!!


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Thanks for the link Gary, nice site.


----------



## Rich Muth (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Pardon me for shouting but, THE RUMORS YOU SPEAK OF ARE COMPLETELY UNTRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO HOTEL NEARBY AND THE NEW MEXICO FIRE MARSHALL RULED OUT ARSON AND LIGHTING AS CAUSES OF THE FIRE!!!!!!!! Spreading unsubstantiated crap like you have is a disservice to the members of this site and, more importantly, to the C&TS RR!!!!


Rich Muth 

Docent C&TS RR 


I'm sorry for where this response came up. I thought I was responding to jimtyp's post of July 6, 2010 at 4:05 PM!


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

But how are we supposed to get our exercise if we can't; jump to conclusions and dodge reality?????


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Rich, 

Thank you for saying what has needed to be said about this fire, for the last two and a half weeks. Voice of reason finally!


----------



## PapaPerk (Nov 7, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

LOL! I'm glad someone is keeping this post real. There's obviously some guys out there with way too much time on their hands. Why does some jump to such dire conclusions?! Bored I guess. 

Leave the engineering and news reporting to the professionals. )


----------



## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Got to remember the internet is made up of : 

Good Information 
Miss-information 
Made up information 

And 

No information. 

It is up to you want you want to believe, research, or find out more about the information.


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Gary, 

I am really sorry you consider a person's opinion and professional background to be 'rumor and speculation'. I take very personal offense to that, and have lost respect for an individual with such a closed mind. I thought the purpose of this forum was open communication. I have read this thread from the beginning, including the one post where you linked to a C&TSRR dispatch. Since that post there has been no information posted that is directly from C&TSRR or any representative. All of my 'speculation' has been prefaced with engineering background and math, go back and read. As for the source of ignition, there are many possibilities. Some more plausible than others, some ruled out, others not. At no time have I presented any specification as to cause. 

Rich Muth, 

You seem to have some real heart burn over the posts here. You also seen to indicate with your signature that you represent the C&TSRR is some fashion, so how about you present the 'truth' about Lobato Tressle instead of lambasting people enjoying conversation and 'speculation'. At no point did I, or anyone else present any statements as being official from C&TSRR. As I said above, my commentary has been based on professional background and engineering math. I am interested to see how close my deductions will be based on what little informaton has been forthcoming from C&TSRR. So how about an official update. 

PapaPerk, 

Engineering evaluation based on math and science is not jumping to conclusions. 

I will make no further post to this thread, it will be a waste of my time to attempt to educate those not interested in the possibilities and probabilities of the nature of science and engineering. 

Bob C.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Jeesh! But I'm in good company, tho.


----------



## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

That post Jerry made about the Internet and Internet discussion groups in particular is well worth remembering. If you want reliable information, you have to be willing to take the time and effort to shift through the speculation and made-up theories, rumors, and just plain bad or untrue information.


----------



## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Hopefully they'll get back to normal operations at an early date.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

From yesterday's Rio Grande Sun: 
http://riograndesun.com/articles/2010/07/08/archives/doc4c34df9c09889963991589.txt 



Yesterday's OFFICIAL press release, with just passing mention: http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/img/uploaded/Lobato Press Release 10.pdf



And photos of the Cumbres departures: http://www.ctsrrphotos.com/photogalleries/2010galleries/july/07-06-10cumbresdeparture/cumbres.htm


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Latest news....$2M to fix the bridge....woof.

Lobato Trestle can be repaired, but it'll be expensive Published: August 26, 2010
CHAMA, N.M. — It could cost as much as $2 million to repair the Lobato Trestle on the Cumbres & Toltecc Scenic Railroad, heavily damaged by a fire of undetermined origin in June.

The bridge, about 4 miles east of Chama, is more than 100 feet high and about 350 feet long. The 64-mile railroad has moved two locomotives and several passenger cars by truck from Chama up to the summit of 10,000-foot Cumbres Pass and operates its trains from there. Trains currently run from the pass to Osier, Colo., and from Antonito, Colo., the line's other terminal, to Osier.

According to the Associated Press, Railroad spokesman Nick Quintana says two engineering firms that evaluated the fire-damaged bridge agreed it was repairable. He says the $2 million estimate comes from a preliminary report on a test to see how much weight the trestle could support given the damage from the June fire. The final report from the engineering firm is expected on Friday.

The structure was insured for up to $360,000 with a $50,000 deductible, meaning officials will need about $1.7 million more for repairs. — Wayne Laepple


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Structural damage. -- $2 mil to repair. $4 mil to replace. Bridge was underinsured to 'save money'

Nobody is sure if the states will offer to pony up the rest (doubtful). Or if they can get a federal grant (might take too long)


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

They should seriously consider replacement if they can find the funding, thus ending the need to break the train if double heading every time is had to cross it. I know its alot of coin, but once done it would be done forever.


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

2 to 4 Million is rediculous. I work for a structural design firm designing bridges for a living. I can build a 100 ft wide by 300 ft long cast-in-place concrete highway bridge for 1 million. A steel bridge is cheaper. Granted that the Lobato trestle in in the middle of nowhere but really!


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By Mike Reilley on 30 Aug 2010 04:14 PM 
Latest news....$2M to fix the bridge....woof.

Lobato Trestle can be repaired, but it'll be expensive....... He says the $2 million estimate comes from a preliminary report on a test to see how much weight the trestle could support given the damage from the June fire. The final report from the engineering firm is expected on Friday.




I kinda agree that $2M seems WAY excessive...especially since material and equipment could be delivered by train.


----------



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

"The State Fire Marshal's Office still hasn't announced the cause of the fire, although investigators have ruled out fireworks, lightning or a "criminal act." 

DAMN, and VIC limbaugh had me convinced Bin Laden was behind the whole thing


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

rpc, send 'em a request for info. I'm sure they'd be interested in repairing it for less. PM me if you to know who to talk to. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I believe that the $2mil and $4mil figures were the engineering firms' estimates, not contractor estimates. Therefore the actual costs may be different.... But how many construction projects have you heard of that come in on time and under budget? -- unless somebody cut corners?

One problem with the C&TS is you've got a LOT of people with the attitude of "If it is not going to be historic, who cares if it survives? There are plenty of non-historic tourist circus outfits that are closer and cheaper to get to" (A direct quote from D&RGW Historian Jerry Day, BTW)


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

The worst part is that $2 million or $4 million, do you_ really_ see either of those state legislatures voting to allocate those kinds of funds when their respective states are in debt by the millions (oh yes) _and_ it's an election year where the incumbents are about as popular as mosquitos at a backyard barbeque? (*Sigh) Without that trestle Chama becomes irrelevant and the one thing the C&TSRR can't go without for long is Chama!


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I can't see Colorado spending dime one, even if they had billion$. If it ain't on the front range, they don't care.

If it wasn't for the largesse of New Mexico providing funding WITHOUT Colorado, the place would have folded 5 years ago.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Colorado has not proven to be a good partner in this joint endeavour! I'm afraid that New Mexico is going to have to foot the bill if they ever want it done! (Of course, all that would be needed for funding the repair of the bridge would be for Colorado to pay up their fair share of what they have owed over the years...)


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Sounds kind of strange that a the folks can not come up with a cause. If explosives were involved the evidence is there. if they say no Lightning who said they where no storms in the area have not seen that mentioned, The whole scenario sounds fishy somebody not doing a good investigation or they don't have the right folks that have the knowledge to figure it out. Lots of dark areas not covered in the investigation. Sounds like who ever they picked to do a rebuild is trying to make some bucks in hard times. Excessive heat will warp rails but as noticed the guard rails showed no signs of that. Checking the fatigue of the metal after the fire would determine if the structure has been weaken to the point of totally replacing. One would also need to know what the bridge rating was prior to the fire. Later RJD


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I think, due to lack of obvious accelerants, fireworks residue, or lightning in the area... that the most likely cause left would be a hot cinder.

The engineering firms did a load test of both Lobato and Cascade (to get a baseline).

Lots of pics showing obvious damage here; http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,164634


Anything else you'd like me to help you find? lol


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Well...that link to the photos of the damage AND the posts later on really show and explain the situation. Sure doesn't look good from the standpoint of "fixing" the bridge. I can't imagine any certified engineer proposing to repair a bridge made from wrought iron. The bents may be OK...but the deck is certainly very questionable. As one poster on that site mentioned...there's no source for similar metal...and no one does riveting anymore. 

This is really a shame. I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOoo glad I got my C&TS trip in two years ago. We stayed at a lovely bed and breakfast in Chama which was owned by folks that were Friends of the C&TS. I feel for them...badly. Without a way to get trains in or out of Chama, I can't see how the place survives. When we were there two years ago, 80% of the restaurants there were already closed from the recession. There were only three places you could eat in town. The rail yard, trains, and engine house are there...so, without a trestle to get trains to Antonito it sure looks grim.


This HAS become a case for what the state of NM will do to help the folks that live in Chama...and not much else.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Mike, 
Wrought iron actually welds pretty well, plus it's even a better material for bridges in some ways than steel. BUT it's MUCH more expensive to make (yes, it CAN be had, but involves a bit more than just a quick run down to the local steel monger and writing a check), and modern engineers and contractors simply aren't used to working with it (and therefore comfortable) anymore. They don't like looking uninformed, so many will simply dismiss the material out of hand... and most people wouldn't even know to question them.


Riveting isn't particularly difficult, either. I've done it. Even with an air driver it's labor intensive, with lots of aching muscles, and a few burns, but very do-able and actually goes pretty fast once all the holes are drilled. But then again, many modern contractors probably aren't used to doing it... except maybe the ironworkers who build skyskrapers in places like Dubai? I'm not sure how big city building skeletons are done these days. The new auditorium at IUP appeared to have had welded flanges on the beams that were then bolted together.... Sure to give the historical people fits.

Finding armchair experts is easy. Finding people who actually know how to do the job right is harder.... affording their services might stretch the resources of the RR a bit further than anybody is comfortable with..


No easy answers, I'm afraid


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Allen...iron is out...steel is in. That's what contractors and engineers know now. Welding is in...riveting is out. Modern building beams are fastened with bolts and nuts now...not rivets. I-beams, C-beams, boxed beams are in...plate and angle iron are out.

BUT...beyond all this kind of construction technique stuff...is what the certified mechanical engineers know...and what they will allow in any construction...especially one that has to hold over 100,000 lbs on the move. I think the go no-go for fixing this bridge will all be based on acceptable construction standards. And, IMHO, that means steel parts and bolts and nuts and welding...and NOT wrought iron.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

If they were to get the money maybe they can make it look old and decrepid.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

The example that everyone always brings up is the Devil's Gate High Bridge on the Georgetown Loop. The original bridge was taken out in the 1920's and when they began to rebuild the Loop in 1974 they didn't really have a clue as to how they would ever replace it! It took a grant from the Boettcher Foundation of $1,000,000 dollars to have it replaced with modern materials and standards but still looking almost exactly as the original bridge (the exception being the more robust bents and girders and the lack of stone on the footings but that's a sore subject for another time...) The point being that it _can_ be done and be done in a way that preserves the historical aspect but also allows for modern safety and construction techniques. All it takes is money and _that's_ the problem! The Boettcher Foundation is a private organization. The Georgetown Loop is owned by the Colorado Historical Society which hands out millions of dollars each year in historical grants! Why did it take the Boettcher Foundation to make the High Bridge a reality? 
Money is very tight and will be for the forseeable future. Do it with a private contractor funded by a grant from a private foundation and I would bet you that the final price tag would be half of what it would be if the work was planned, funded, overseen and executed by the _govt._!! Since the price tag is at _least_ three times what it was in 1984 and since the C&TSRR is jointly owned by two different states and any funding has to be approved by both legislatures, well.....


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Officially released inspection report on Lobato 11 pages

Cumbres & Toltec - Lobato Trestle Repoprt


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

http://www.ctsrr.com/news/2010/09-0...report.pdf


----------



## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Link didn't work for me. Sometimes you can't go directly to a document. If so, back to the C&TSRR home page and go to updates, news, ...

http://www.ctsrr.com/news/2010/09-0...report.pdf


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Federal funds to go toward Cumbres & Toltec bridge fixBy Wayne Laepple
Published: October 21, 2010
CHAMA, N.M. — New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson made $1.1 million available to the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad today to restore the fire-damaged Lobato trestle. The iconic bridge burned in June, forcing the railroad to curtail operations and resulting in a 28 percent decline in patronage. 

The grant of federal transportation enhancement funds for historic railroad bridges will cover construction work necessary to repair the structure in time for the railroad's May 28, 2011, season opening. 

"I am committed to helping the residents of Chama where the local economy depends on regular service of the historic railroad," Richardson said. New Mexico's congressional delegation assisted in securing the funds. 

Contractors must build a road from a nearby highway to the bridge in order to move in a giant crane to remove the fire-damaged wrought iron beams and install the steel girders, bridge timbers, and rails. 

Other funding sources, including an insurance payout, will cover the remainder of the project cost, according to railroad officials. These include engineering design ($90,000), new steel girders ($800,000), timbers and other wood components ($100,000), and installation costs ($920,000). Railroad enthusiasts and boosters have contributed more than $50,000 to the repair fund. 

Following the fire, the railroad trucked two locomotives and a number of passenger coaches from Chama to the top of 10,028-foot Cumbres Pass, and passengers were taken by bus from Chama to Cumbres for the train trip to Osier and Antonito, Colo. 

The Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad is the longest steam-powered tourist railroad in the nation, operating 64 miles between Chama, N.M., and Antonito, Colo.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Not quite, Mike 


RIO GRANDE SUN Española, New Mexico 87532 Thursday, October 28, 2010 


$825K State Grant Leaves Train Short For Trestle Repairs 
By Joe Crawford SUN Staff Writer 

The Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad would need to find another $90,000 and empty its track repair fund, but it appears to have found a way to fix the Lobato Trestle, four miles north of Chama. 

An $825,000 grant through the state Department of Transportation announced last week would pay nearly half the cost to fix the bridge, which was severely damaged by a fire in June, Railroad Commission President Lenny Martinez said. The grant was originally announced by Gov. Bill Richardson's office as being $1.1 million, but it turns out that figure included $275,000 in matching funds from the Railroad, Martinez said. 

The grant money originally comes from the federal Transportation Department's Transportation Enhancement Program. Money from that Program is eligible to be spent on rehabilitation of trestles on historic railroads, according to the Program's website. Gilbert Gallegos, a spokesman for Richardson's office, did not return a call for comment. 

A plan to fix the trestle put forward by Railroad officials this week includes using $360,000 of insurance money, about $50,000 of private donations, $90,000 from the state of Colorado and $550,000 that otherwise would have been spent on repairing track. An engineering study released in August put the total cost of repair at about $2 million, a figure Salazar called a "guesstimate." 

"It's still a guesstimate of some sorts," Salazar said. "It's a credible guesstimate." Martinez estimated the Railroad needs about $90,000 more to fix the trestle. He said that could come from individual donations, contributions from foundations or other sources. 


Final report on Lobato 10-28-10 a 14 page pdf 
http://www.ctsrr.com/news/2010/11-01-10lobatofinal/lobatofinalreport.pdf 

Friends/ Candelaria fund 
http://www.cumbrestoltec.org/news/113-lobato-trestle-donation.html


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Notice how $90,000 is coming from Colorado? Mighty magnanimous of them don't you think? That's less than twice the _initial_ privately raised contributions. (Funny, I thought the C&TSRR was jointly owned by NM and CO! Now why do you suppose that the legislature up in Denver seems to have such a hard time remembering that point?) Just an observation....


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

3 reasons that I can think of, Steve. 
1. If it ain't on the front range, it ain't on the front page. 
2. They're still hemorrhaging money from the clowns at the CHS short-sightedly forcing the Ashbys out at the Georgetown Loop. 
3. They still have that TABOR thing to deal with. Who in Denver will vote to raise their taxes for "some stupid bridge" in B-F-E?


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

In discussions with the new owner of the EBT, it seems the state and local officials are most concerned with employment. I'm sure the tourist $$ help, but keeping the people working (and off unemployment) is pretty helpful.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I'm still in awe that the bridge could cost $2M to replace. I mean...it's got a railroad track leading to both ends of it already...what's this stuff about having to build a road for a crane and material to get to the site. UP rebuilt miles of trestle up near Sacramento a few years ago...dual track mainline...when the trestle burned...all from the RR ROW. I just gotta figure that there's a lawyer involved here somewhere...


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Mike, 

You are talking about standard gauge construction with UP. Lobato trestle is not that far from Chama, but it's hilly, no road access close-by AND loads of private property around the trestle. Heavy equipment moved by narrow gauge rolling stock (80-100 years old at that). Plus environmental issues. I am not all surprised it could cost a couple of million. Colorado's governor (newly elected BTW) needs to step up to the plate like Bill Richardson did. This bridge really affects the economy of BOTH states, big time!


----------



## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

This is where the road is ... see the truck..


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

When you think about what the "Friends" are coughing up to try and help and then you look at Colorado, well......let's just say that I would like to see just a _little_ more effort going to helping out here is all. Hmmm....looking at that photo, it doesn't look like too much of a problem to run a gravel road up to Lobato trestle.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

But is this private property between the bridge and the road? You STILL permission to access that property if it does not belong to the railroad. Right?


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I remember CSII way back wondering where I came up with a cost of millions. I guess now he knows. Yes, I have been involved in building bridges, Mr. CSII.
Anyway, It will require a whole lot of hearings, etc, just to get the access road built. You have environmental impacts studies, etc. Heaven forbid you find a rare plant.
The old bridge was grandfathered: the new must meet all codes.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Posted By jebouck on 09 Nov 2010 04:19 PM 
....It will require a whole lot of hearings, etc, just to get the access road built. You have environmental impacts studies, etc. Heaven forbid you find a rare plant. The old bridge was grandfathered: the new must meet all codes.

Hearings...yup, lawyers are around.

Here is where I think the trestle is from my recollection. Sure looks like an easy place to bring equipment in by road...and an easy place to set up a construction site.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Unless you need heavy equipment on both sides....


----------



## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

What about bringing the machinery in on Rails? and using a Rail Crane to unload it off the flatcars? It can also be used for bringing in the materials needed as well. I havent been there so i dont know the rest of the line or other problems facing the engineers on site ruling out rail transport.


----------



## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Mike, You need to move your arrow over to where the railroad crosses Lobato creek (GRIN). Otherwise I think you have the correct spot. 

I do not remember if there are clearance problems for bringing in heavy equipment by rail. There is a bridge as you leave Chama that might cause a problem. However you would probably still have the same environmental studies etc. for building unloading ramps and other support necessary.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

I'm sure every obvious option has already been considered. If it was already discarded there probably was a good reason. 


But as long as we're just tossing ideas - The seabees re-did the Devil's gate as a training excercise... I wonder if they need another one?


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

What about bringing the machinery in on Rails?

I thought you might be interested in this bridge replacement project, done by the NYMR on a 130-year-old bridge at an inaccessible part of the line. Lots of good pics and video. 

*NYMR Bridge 30 Project*


----------



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

YAY, Colorado finally pitched in, I think they have all the funding that is needed:

http://www.ctsrr.com/news/2010/12-1...e%2025.pdf


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Well! (Will wonders never cease...) Tis indeed a Merry Christmas!!


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

It is a joyfull season.

We should start a new thread entitled GREAT NEWS OF CUMBRES AND TOLTEC.

The Horrible news is past.









JJ


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!*

Since I was the one that started this thread, I was wondering if a moderator would be so kind as to change the title of this thread to "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)" I think that will bring us up to date!


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The fix is in....

The Fix


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Mike,
Your link is for subscribers only.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*








Try this link, Mikey.









http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,183760


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Oops....sorry for the link. If you get Garden Railways, Trains, or Model Railroader, you can register to see all the articles for free...including the one I posted a link to.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Heck Mike, I'm a subscriber and I logged in and when I clicked on the link it_ still_ wouldn't let me read it!! (This online info cr*p is getting old! I liked it better the old way.)


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Hmmmm....strike two. I'm gonna shut up.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Article is only for subscribers to trains, I am subscriber to GR, I could log in to trains.com, but I'm not authorized to read anything but on the GR sub site. 

Ding! 

(clambake is really getting money-grubbing!) 

Greg


----------



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The good news is... Reiman's doing it! I've done some business with them before, and, even better, it's a FAMILY OWNED, US business! 

We're going to take the ride on the C&T this year, when they finish the bridge. I've lived in Colorado my entire life and haven't ridden that one OR the D&S. Never got to ride on the Ski Train either. 

I did get to ride on the Loop before the Shays were taken away, and OK, old timers only: I have a picture of me with 74 simmering in the background in Central City, CO. And got to ride behind her! 

Thanks! Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

BTW, guys, anyone wanna see the plans for the new Lobato Bridge? 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...jb218cGxhbnN8Z3g6MjhhODgyM2RiNGQ1YzU4Yg&pli=1 

Enjoy! 

Thanks, Robert


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Hey Where can one get a copy of thos plans? Maybe in PDF format so I could enlarge them so I could read them. I might use them for one of my bridge products. It's got the towers in them 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The pictures are in png format, just right click on the pictures and save them. They are 800 pixels wide. 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*








I'm working with a welder right now for a "miniature" Lobato trestle on my new railroad. These plans will come in handy!


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By John J on 02 Mar 2011 02:20 PM 
Hey Where can one get a copy of thos plans? Maybe in PDF format so I could enlarge them so I could read them. I might use them for one of my bridge products. It's got the towers in them 

JJ You should be able to print them out or use Page/Save As to keep a copy of them from the Google site...

Thanks! Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

John, J, here's a link to a .pdf file of the Labato Trestle plans: 

http://plans.reimancorp.com/Home/jobs-bidding/nm-dot-feb-2011-letting 

Hope that helps! 

Thanks, Robert


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

JJ: All those 3/8 inch gusset plates will be 1/64 inch in 1:24 scale. I can't imagine that working on scale...not to mention 1/32 inch bolts.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Richard, 

With enough time and patience ..... 

An old friend, long passed on, build an absolutely georgeous model of one of the SR&RL pin connected truss bridges out of lacquer thinner cans. He sheared and bent all the material for the girders (angles and channels) and either hard soldered (silver) or acid core 95/5 the main structure. All the lattice columns were made that way also, except he made the lacing with small brass flat stock. All done it On2. I do wish I had a picture to show. 

Bob C.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The Lobato Trestle rebuild is underway. It looks like the on site work began about a month ago. There's a whole bunch of videos of the bridge being rebuilt and pre-manufactured stuff being delivered.

The start of the videos is at http://www.youtube.com/user/Cumbres...20ml8OX8QM and there's a bunch of them. Someone is taking care to provide daily updates almost and posting them on YouTube...and you can subscribe to them as well.


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Great to heaar that the work is well on it way to fix the bridge. 
Thanks Mike for posting the youtube on this. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

A link to a TV news broadcast detailing the rebuilding. This was updated on May 19th, 2011. Good news indeed!

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/busine...ridge-fire


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

It is said in their opening day news story that they expect trains to be running over the bridge and into Chama by opening day! That's only eight days away!!


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Maybe I missed it, but does anyone know if the bridge will be beefed up structurally so they can double head across the bridge? 

It sure would make for a great photo.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Randy,

According to what I read on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Group, the bridge will be restored to pre-fire condition AND NOT beefed-up for double-heading.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The bridge deck is being replaced....period. If you watch the videos, you'll see complete deck sections being delivered.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Press Release

http://www.ctsrr.com/news/2011/05-2...%205.0.pdf


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Ummm........there's some conflicting information coming out of Chama, NM. According to the CEO of the C&TSRR, the trains will depart from Chama on opening day.........if possible. Now, go over to the Narrow Gauge Dead Goat Saloon website and the situation looks completely different. They claim that the management of the C&TSRR are liars with NO intention of having a train running out of Chama. The reason? The bridge is not fixed yet! They have time stamped pictures that would support this conclusion. (Honestly, I would be surprised if the bridge is fixed before July!) If you go to "The Goat," be prepared to get covered in muck as they have been slinging it fast and furiously!!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Woof...and I thought the carping here was bad.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*








Steve,

The Goat has been carping for years. Nothing new there. The NG Discussion Group asctually has day-by-day videos posted by Roger Hogan, showing the progress of work.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

regardless of the hipe, the bridge will apparently not be finished by opening day, which is Saturday. When it will open is anyone's guess. I hope soon after that at least.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The first of the old girders was finally removed and sent to the Chama yard. They are apparently finding all kinds of extra problems that need to be corrected (not surprising on a 100 year old span!) Hopefully, none of the new problems found will exceed the repair budget! 
Gary,
I hadn't been over to the "Goat" for a few months. I made the mistake of trying to post a reasoned and respectfull but not completely in agreement posting. Geez!!! I'm lucky to get out of there with only 2nd degree burns!!! There are some _seriously _hard core foamers (or perhaps I should say _rabid froathers!_) that consider this whole situation as some kind of private war!! If you're not 100% with them then you are the enemy and a (*deleted for content*)!!! Quite honestly, it makes the little blow-ups we have here seem like nothing more than a difference of opinion, the very model of civility and gentility!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Steve,

There are a couple of "nay-sayers" on the NGRDG that STILL don't believe the bridge will EVER be opened! But I was also reading the post about the first "old" span arriving in Chama. There is also a message from the president of the C&TSRR saying that despite the long hours and great work by the building crew, that the railroad won't have an engine cross Lobato this weekend. Considering what we saw last June with the fire, this will only be a minor glitch and hopefully they won't find any "hidden damage" that cannot be covered by the funds they have now.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Steve, Only 2nd degree burns? You must have nearly kissed Jay's backside, then. He was bad before the stroke, but now.......


BTW, I'm banned for life and he keeps posting my private info for the spambots to harvest. (I proved he was lying and had flip-flopped and changed the archive to show he hadn't.... twice. Now I admin the-ashpit.com, the board that allows differing viewpoints than his to be aired.... and the occasional mostly un-moderated venting)

Iffen ya just stay out of the Goat the world suddenly becomes a happier place.... Funny how that works.


And no, it won't be done 'on time'.... at this point I think the best case is, "soon" and "under budget"..... They're gonna find more hidden problems they missed before....... There will be more bad weather and other unavoidable delays. And ANYBODY who blames the construction folks OR the RR operator for THAT is just talking out of his a--.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Mik, 

I'm just hoping that nobody gets hurt during this repair. I think the crew has been pretty awesome so far. It will really be a thrill to see the first train across the trestle! Maybe I can have my "Little Lobato Trestle" in place on my layout by summer's end.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 26 May 2011 09:16 AM 
Steve,

There are a couple of "nay-sayers" on the NGRDG that STILL don't believe the bridge will EVER be opened! But I was also reading the post about the first "old" span arriving in Chama. ...

photos


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Yeah, Roger Hogan does a great job keeping all of us up to date with those great photos of his!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Mikey,

Here you go with photos.









http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,190244


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Great video of the gantry crane in use removing a bridge section. I think this is span 4 of 5 coming off the bridge...and perhaps the first one that the gantry crane was used to remove.


Gantry crane in operation.


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

I was watching the crane video and boy was those I-beams sagging or what....


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Fascinating watching this work. Dangerous business for sure. I wonder how it was done un 1880?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 01 Jun 2011 11:51 PM 
Fascinating watching this work. Dangerous business for sure. I wonder how it was done un 1880? Not sure of the date, but Abo canyon is near the same longitude...



















Looks like they built the box on site...

John


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Great pictures john 

Thanks. For posting


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

I agree Randy. Great pictures John! Thanks for posting.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

AW Shucks! Yer welcome, I guess not all my hours are wasted as a surf rat.... I love exploring digital archieves... 

John


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

update, courtesy of Roger Hogan owner of "the Hotel" in Chama - Sat, June 4 

Yesterday the 1st ties were delivered to Lobato. Locomotive 19 met the truck load of ties at Dalton and then took the ties down to the North side of Lobato. tomorrow the Lobato crew will state putting the ties on girder #6 on the East side of the trestle. 

To the video 

http://www.youtube.com/user/CumbresToltec#p/u/0/nMQgO1gXSrU


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Well..they have four of the five spans in place...I sure hope someone takes a movie of the last span being placed....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

With all that beautiful scenery around them I wonder if any of the worker look at it. That sure would be a great place to work. 

I have been watching the videos of the work on the trestle. Those are great videos and I am sure glad someone took them.

Would be nice to get them on a DVD and watch on my big screen TV

JJ


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

That suggestion was made to Roger Hogan (the gentleman taking the videos) and he agreed that it would be a great idea....assuming he can find the free time to do it! Oh, by the way, Roger also just reported that the last girder was bolted into position!! Wahoo!!!!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Rog is a great guy... with the soul of a mercenary. If there's an angle to make money on the deal, he'd find it.... with a smile. Which isn't always a bad thing, and besides, he's completely upfront about it. 

So if you ask nice enough, he'll try to get you just about anything -- 

Th CTSMC has figured out how to harness that, and it seems to be benefiting both of them. They get great publicity and so does he.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Latest word is that the LAST girder is in place and tomorrow morning the CTSRR crew is going to the bridge site to instruct the rebuilding crew about installing ties and rail. Good news indeed!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Bridge deck going in....


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Well that didn't work...so lets do it the old way....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Nr...ploademail


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Good news indeed!


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

The Contract Drawings indicate a lot of stiffner plates on the legs of the bents. Was that done first or is that work still to be done? The fact that those deck girders were done off site during the winter was incredible. That gantry operation was ingenious. This will be a wonderful recovery from a real tragedy.


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## Tenwheeler (Mar 5, 2010)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

From the beginning, this project has been an engineering challenge to say the least. There has been a monumental amount of effort required and expended to allow this project to reach completion in this amount of time. This speaks volumes of the commitment of the states of Colorado and New Mexico to maintaining this valuable and irreplaceable historical railroad.
This is one small step for man and one gigantic leap for the C&TS RR. 
GREAT JOB!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By Richard Weatherby on 08 Jun 2011 04:46 PM 
The Contract Drawings indicate a lot of stiffner plates on the legs of the bents. Was that done first or is that work still to be done? The fact that those deck girders were done off site during the winter was incredible. That gantry operation was ingenious. This will be a wonderful recovery from a real tragedy. 
I agree totally. This effort was extremely well planned. And yes, Richard, the bents were repaired before they pulled the decks off...go back through all the videos on YouTube and you can see the foundation and strengthening work...which was being done while they were working on the disassembly of track, deck girders, and installation of the gantry "track". 

That was a GOOD construction compnay...real good. The ONLY improvement that could have been made...that would have been important to me...would have been to use the engines and cars of the C&TS to deliver the goods to the trestle location. Just think how cool it would have been to see the bridge girders delivered by flatcar pushed by a K36...or the ties...or the gantry crane itself. They don't have a RR crane...well, I can dream anyway....


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Hey looks like great news from Lobato Trestle! As of 1 p.m. this afternoon, June 17th, #19 is waiting to cross the trestle. It is reported that rail was over half way across the bridge at that time. It is rumored that #19 will cross the bridge by days end. Whoo-Hoo!!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

New update........As of 5:25 pm today, all rails are spiked and ballast is being dumped!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Number 19, a ballast hopper and a flat, first across Lobato Trestle at 6:46 pm!! 

Photos on Narrow Gauge Discussion Group.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

GOOD NEWS!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 17 Jun 2011 09:04 PM 
GOOD NEWS!









More good news! First train from Chama to cross Lobato Trestle on Monday June 20th!


http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,192432


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Are they still going to split double headers or will the new span be able to handle double headers?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By vsmith on 18 Jun 2011 12:12 PM 
Are they still going to split double headers or will the new span be able to handle double headers? Vic,

According to the folks in the know involved with the railroad, the piers were REPAIRED and NOT reinforced to handle double-headers. So the trains will still have to be split when double-heading.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Thanks Mike, 
Nice to see ballast going on the approach. 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Cool video Mike! Why the squeaky flanges at the start of the video? Tight gauge maybe?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

It has now been "officially" announced that the first passenger revenue train over Lobato Trestle will be on Monday, June 20th. On Sunday, the 19th, #488 will head into Chama for a boiler wash (and some needed mechanical fixes) while the #487 will head out to assume passenger duties. It looks as if things are getting back to normal!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 18 Jun 2011 12:40 PM 
Cool video Mike! Why the squeaky flanges at the start of the video? Tight gauge maybe?









Methinks more likely rusty rail from lock of use and perhaps above the ballast...a tad.

John


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Fantastic!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Great finish to a tumultuous year!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Revenue service!!!!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

I was just going to post this Mike. Glad you found it. Bunch of happy folks up there today!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

Amen!!! (Ummm....since I was the one who started this thread almost exactly a year ago, I think it only fair and prudent to beg any moderator to change the title of this thread, yet again, from "(Not so) horrible news" to just ("No ) horrible news" if you would be so kind.) My guess is that we're almost done with this thread so lets bring her home right!


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: "(Not so) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"*

What a happy father's day... #488 is my Accucraft K-36 ... I need to put the plow on it when I get home from the NGRC.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

[No message]


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Neat, I havent seen a pnuematic jack being used to drive spikes like that.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

The last movie was good for me. Got to see all the "basic" rail installation tools....drill, saw, and spike smacker. I've always wondered what the machine looked like that drilled the holes for the rail joiners...and it took me a while to figure out that the first motorized tool (the yellow one) is drilling holes.


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