# The W&ARR General Locomotive



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

My wife has decided that we need to get a replica of the W&ARR General Engine ( Civil War Era and the Great Locomotive Chase). Who am I to argue.


Anyway, my first round has only turned up the HLW Locomotive ... not exactly what I was looking for. Does or did anyone make a closer replica of it? It can be electric or live steam. Has something like this been made in the past that I could watch for? The scale can be anything that runs on 1 gauge track.


I have been told they exist ... just not exactly sure where to look.

Tom Bray


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

The short answer is no. The General as it appears in the museum today (as roughly portrayed by HLW) is a later rebuild of the loco (not even remotely Civil War Era) that looks surprisingly little like the General that took part in the Great Locomotive Chase. Absolutely no one, to my limited knowledge, has ever done a remotely accurate Civil War era model of the General. Sadly. One of the most famous locomotives on the entire planet, and no one has put the least effort into getting it right. I suppose it's understandable when you stop to think that the General was broad gauge originally and would have to be underscaled to fit on most gauges. I could be wrong and maybe there's a good version out there (I'd LOVE to see it), so if anyone has any info on that, PLEASE let us know. 
The rather badder part of it all is that there isn't even a good model to bash into the General. There's no remotely close 1/32 4-4-0 currently available that I know of, and the narrow gauge models are of proportions extremely incorrect for broad gauge. 
The HLW is the best available choice at the moment. It's not unattractive in its way, but it's also not very accurate in its way. 
Sorry. 
Chris


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## cvngrr (Apr 28, 2008)

This one supposedly is, but it's O scale: http://www.smrtrains.com/general3.htm


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

But there's a quite nice 1:24 plastic model kit from AMS. It's been out of production for some time, but you still see them turn up at train shows, on eBay, etc. You'll have to motorize it, so you'll still have to either cannibalize a Hartland 4-4-0 (for example) or buy a motor block and fit it to the superstructure. 

That's not as simple as you hoped, I know, and it's not the right scale. Still, how picky is your wife going to get? In fact if you just had one parked on a siding during open houses and on the mantel the rest of the time, would that satisfy her urge?


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

I have a few pics of the Wild Wild West movie version- 





























-Brian


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Wow! I wasn't aware of that O scale model. It is absolutely the closest thing to the Civil War General I've seen. Thanks for that link. The Plastic model kit is of the 1892 rebuild of the engine, which is essentially the General everyone is familiar with. But the locomotive had been rebuilt several times before that. The real change in the look happened in the 1870's when her extra steam dome, ankle rails, strap iron pilot and balloon stack all disappeared. I really love the look of the original General and I'd love to see someone produce it in G. But then I'd love to see any accurate standard gauge 4-4-0 in G! 
Chris


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

I wasn't aware of that O scale model


And only $1,295.00 each.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

This is not quite what I wanted to find out, but I appreciate the information.

I don't feel up to trying to make one at this stage of the game so it will just have to wait.

The O gauge version is about perfect except for the size. 

Tom Bray


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I know the bachmann 4-4-0 is a narrow gauge model of a baldwin loco, and 20 years newer than the General, but that's about as close as it gets when you want a ready to run loco. I tried to find the photos, but at the museum in Kennesaw, they have a pair of the Bachmann 4-4-0's painted up like the modern rendering of the General and the Texas chasing each other along the wall. 

Mark


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

We will be going over the Georgia in the next month or so and check out the museum. 

I will check out the Baldwin locomotive.

Tom Bray


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom,

I just repainted my Bachmann 4-4-0 and it was really easy to take apart for painting. I would say go for one of the new painted undecorated wood burners. In fact, the Olive and russia iron might be pretty close to the original paint on the General.

A great book on the General, the chase and the medal of honor is Russ Bonds' Stealing The General. Excellent read.


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Brian, 
I think that B & O loco may be the one used by Disney in the movie. Both Texas and General locos for movie came from B & O Museum! Filmed in Georgia, athough in the North East part rather than the correct North West.


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Tom, 
I was at the museum a few months ago and they had the Hartland General on sale there. Good price, too. Looks good in person. Please consider coming to Georgia May 1-2 for the Southeast Garden Railroad Show in Dalton. Also, layout tours on May 3. The General actually ran through Dalton and we are working on tours to the tunnel from the show! See www.segrs.com for complete details.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

The HLW version is quite nice actually, otherwise learning the secret sorcerers way of kitabshing alchemy to convert the AMS kit to G gauge is your best bet, the good news is that it HAS been done, a few times from what I've read in the past. I have the kit out in the garage awaiting my atempt to do it also, but as I'm slightly hobby cash poor right now, cant buy the drive parts to convert it. It would involve narrowing the wheelbase but the end results should be worth it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

I think that B & O loco may be the one used by Disney in the movie


Indeed it was. B&O #25 'William Mason" has been re-boilered and/or re-tubed many times thanks to the film companies. After the Great Railway Chase, it starred in "Wild West" then in the TV movie "Gods and Generals". It is still in running order:











"Baltimore & Ohio 4-4-0 locomotive #25, the "William Mason" leads an early train across the platform in front of the spectator stage at the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair."










See also 'markoles' thread: http://www.mylargescale.com/Default.aspx?tabid=66&EntryID=51


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Not only is it still in operation at the B&O museum in Baltimore (although it does not run very often at all, a shame really), it is driven by a team that includes Chris France, a member on this board. Chris has posted some videos on youtube of the Mason running along the historic first mile on the museum grounds. 

Vic - I wonder how much of the kit could be fit on to the bachmann chasis. The working stevenson valve gear and the die cast frame and robust mechanicals would move that bash along nicely.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

I wonder how much of the kit could be fit on to the bachmann chasis


Mark, 
No much, I suspect. Mine is right here over my desk, and the gauge is approx 2 3/8" as it is 1/25th scale. 

Now the HLW 4-4-0 at 1/24th is a model of a NG loco and therefore is much smaller (I imagine - haven't got one handy.) With some really, really big driving wheels and axles pushed much higher, I think you might get a decent standard gauge model in 1/29th or 1/32nd scale.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete,

What is the driver spacing? I was thinking that the frame and the drive train, along with the valve gear might be usable from the bachmann. The power pick up on the b-mann is from the tender, so that wouldn't be an issue, but plastic wheels are no good on non motive power, so something would have to be done for the drivers. The bachmann has a driver c-c of 4-7/16". Plus, the General's drive wheels have the bolt on counter weights, whereas the bachmann version (and the Hartland for that matter) have cast drivers. 


Certainly not a simple bash..... 

BTW, I just realized you referenced my loco building bash! Thanks! Didn't know many people read that stuff! I did finally repaint the bachmann 4-4-0 using flat paints. Brushed it all on, and have mixed results. On the smokebox, I did flat black. Did a green and silver for the rest, but didn't really follow the Baldwin paint scheme. Not enough time or money to do it that way, but overall I am happy with my efforts. Ran the loco the other day, and once again, I am very happy with this engine. I am thinking very hard about getting the painted unlettered green from Bachmann. It was an easy enough disassembly and paint process that I could pretty easily do it over in the future. I am strongly considering repainting the tender using spray paints when the weather improves and I can safely paint outiside.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

BTW, I was just at Caboose Hobbies this afternoon, and they've got a built-up version of the old 1:24 "General" kit on the shelf for the hullavabargain price of $15! I almost left with it myself. The construction and decaling is certainly not what one would call "expert" by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think it'd make great kitbash fodder. 

Later, 

K


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I was looking at the Bachmann 4-4-0 but the wheels aren't the correct size and it is a 1:20.3 scale so it has a few issues.

I will try and find the plastic model, if nothing else it will be a start.

We will be going to see the General in the next month or so. If they have the HLW engine I will take a close look at it.


I am not in a huge rush to buy this, and starting another major building project is a bad idea right now ... I have a layout to build (track needs ot be layed) and I still need to add cars and another locomotive that fits into the everyday use category (I have MTH DCS system so I want to find something that goes with that).


I appreciate all the good ideas. An yes I will be making it to the train show in May, I think that is when it is, and I am trying to figure out how to make to to Colorado.

Tom Bray


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have three of these "The General" model kits, one assembled and two awaiting disposition. 


I refer you to another thread here on MLS where this was discussed:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/14/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/77075/Default.aspx#77075


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Friends, 
Go to http://ggrs.info/ and on the menu bar to the left, select 'Past Meetings and Show' then select under 2007 'World's Greatest Hobby Tour' and scroll down several pictures and you will see a photo of the 'General' kit mounted to a Bachmann drive. One more photo in the '2008 Southeast Large Scale Train Show' section. Also, go to http://www.traininstallations.com/Indoors.htmhttp://www.traininstallations.com/Indoors.htm and look at the 5th photo. It is in the Kennesaw museum and shows the 'General' and 'Texas', both modified Bachmann locos. One of the guys in our club did all these. Be sure to see the Ke museum when you come to the SEGRS in Dalton May 1-2!


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,

The photo from the museum on Kennesaw is similar to the one I saw at a different site. Looks like they repainted the Eureka and Palisade versions. 



Mark


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Mark, 
Basically you are correct. Some minor modifications. Could be other photos around. David Bennett, of the traininstallations.com site is a member of the Georgia Garden Railway Society and does great work. He will be at Dalton in May.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

What is the driver spacing?


Mark, it's 3 1/4". 

_P.S. You noticed my link to your thread because I edited it and added your name *after* you posted._


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

hullavabargain price of $15! I almost left with it myself. The construction and decaling is certainly not what one would call "expert" by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think it'd make great kitbash fodder.


There's quite a few complete kits around at that price. Want mine - I have a spare kit? 

Even Fletch has used one as 'fodder': 










See http://4largescale.com/fletch/d0a.htm


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I used the boiler and tender on that early 1:24 NPC 2-6-0, also most of the superstructure of this 4-4-0 I did in the 1990s: 



















The boiler size etc only really just makes a narrow gauge loco size at 1:24. Its not a large kit, even at 1:25 its way undersize for fitment to Bachmann 4-4-0s etc. I have seen it powered by a modified Bachmann 4-6-0 drive into 4-4-0 (Shawmutt Car Shops did one for a client once in the 1990s). It never really got the 'look'. 
The ones in the above link at Kennesaw and the 2007 show are all repaints of the Bachmann 4-4-0, not bashes with General kit parts. 

These days I find it way easier to make my own wagontop boiler and cab then muck around with these kits anyway. You want the loco of your dreams, build it and do it right and enjoy the challenge..it will be less work than doing a half job with one of these kits. 

David.


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## jegame (Apr 3, 2009)

There is an MPC/Lionel/Fundimension kit in 1:24 or 1:25. I have just bought one at e-bay on bargain price of $ 24 UNBUILT SEALED BOX.
Regards,
Jorge, from Buenos Aires


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Bills posted a photo of the Hartland 4-40 from ECLSTS: 










I photographed a different version, which I think was labelled 'original Delton Brass model':


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Now this 4-4-0 is the one that I wish they had continued to make .....................it IS a beauty for sure , driver spaceing better , and the handrails are how I think they should be . 
A really fine looking American .


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Dennis,

If you put your hand the rear driving wheel in the 4-4-0 photo above, a C.P. Huntington comes to mind .


Cheers


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

That should have read: 
Dennis, 

If you put your hand OVER the rear driving wheel in the 4-4-0 photo above, a C.P. Huntington comes to mind .


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Yeah, funny how you can take a beautifully porportioned machine and turn it into an ugly travesty by simply covering one wheel.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

*RE: The W&ARR General Locomotive*

Does anyone know where to find a photograph of the General in its original state and maybe a color scheme? 

Tom Bray


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Bray on 04/07/2009 9:28 PM
Does anyone know where to find a photograph of the General in its original state and maybe a color scheme? 

Tom Bray


Start by going to the "Unofficial" Kennesaw Civil War Museum Online at: http://www.locomotivegeneral.com/ and follow links on that site to others.

But, I doubt if you will ever find a photo of the "Original", 5-ft gauge, loco, never mind a "color" one, but there are several web sites devoted to it and the Andrew's Raid and the other locos involved in the Great Locomotive Chase, so maybe they will lead you to what you are seeking.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

That SP 4-4-0 was indeed a Delton model from the late 1980s, and is infact a 4-4-0ized version of the CP Huntington model! Yup they made CP Huntington in around 1985/6 and the 4-4-0 followed in 1987 by adding the rear driver, the rest is unaltered CPH. Only the Delton CPH and the 2-6-6T Mason Bogie from 83/84 were based on actual prototypes, the rest including this 4-4-0, small 2-6-0s, 2-4-0s and 0-4-0s etc were all character filled free lance old time locos. While this 4-4-0 is techincally freelance also, I kinda like to think it as a Danforth Cooke, early 1860s 4-4-0...it sure has style. 
A little more about Delton here in this MLS article:

http://archive.mylargescale.com/articles/articles/philjensen/PhilJensen03.asp

To think I could have bought one of those Delton 4-4-0s 'By-it-now' from ebay a few years ago for $400 from an estate sale (daughters were selling off Dad's stuff), I hit the 'buy it now' button, but also dropped them a note asking if they knew what they were selling - they based the price on a Bachmann 4-4-0, thinking it was much the same. They decided to keep the engine as an heirloom. I got a nice bottle of red out of it for 'being so understanding'. Oh well. It just didn't seem right to take advantage of ignorance. I'm sure I'll get one of these someday. 

David.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I applaud your not taking advantage of someone who doesn't know what they have.

I ordered several books today from Amazon, they may not get me an exact replica or photo of the original General but I have decided that I really like the looks of that age locomotive, especially the 4 larger drive wheels variation - something about them just looks pleasing. 

Ultimately I will probably build one unless I find just the right one already made.


Right now, my first order of business is to finish building the basic layout in the backyard, especially before summer sets in and it gets too hot here in Alabama. 



Tom


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Brian,

Thanks for posting the pixes. I have a question, if you don't mind answering: see that brass valve set up around 10 o'clock from the number plate? It has two valves, one an inline, the other a bib-type. What was the purpose of that setup?

Also, dropping down to about 8 o'clock, the green cylinder is the feedwater injector, right? And the item on the other end of the copper pipe coming out the bottom of the cylinder is the feedwater pump? Trying to see if I know what I'm looking at.

Les


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sure will chip in as well, what you see on the side of the 'William Mason' 4-4-0 are two water feed devices side by side. This is not always the case, but occurs on a lot of locos through the 1870s into the 80s where a mix of older trusted technology is mixed with a little new. 

The horrizontal pipe with check valve on the RHS is the water feed line from the injector mounted inside the cab, a similar line is probably on the other side of the boiler. 

The 2nd check vavle forward (nearer to the '25' plate) is the check valve on the end of the water feed line from the crosshead water pump. The crosshwad water pumps were used on locos well before injectors started being used. Through the 1870s and later depending on RR's desire, crosshead water pumps and injectors were fitted to locos. Slowly the pumps were dumped leaving the engine's water feed only via injectors. 

The pump iteself is that vertical brass unit below the running boards. Midway up is a horrizontal element that connects to the backside of the piston crossead. Out the top of that brass unit is the feed water pipe running up to the check valve. At the bottom of the pump is the feed water pipe from the tender water supply. Attached to the rear top of the pump is a metal pull rod leading back to the cab which enables the crew to activate the water flow through the pump to the check valve. The pump always works, even if water is not flowing, becuase the pump is perminantly connected to the piston crosshead of the loco. 

Folks in our Masterclass model building adventures built their own crosshead pumps and injectors in the Porter Masterclass of 2006, plus there is a fairly generic overview of loco plumbing including injectors and water pumps from our first 2001 model building class in chapter 6. 

Have an overview of this chapter: 
http://archive.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc1/mc1-06/bkgrnd/bkgrnd01.asp 
Keep a lookout for section K in that article which talks about injectors and crosshead pumps. 

Prior to 1870, most US locos had only crosshead water pumps, and no injectors. Some RRs were slow to take up injectors and used only pumps well into the late 1870s 

Here are some models that may help show the system: 

CCRR #4 Porter 1873 - Injector to the fireman's side only 








In this instance the injector is just forward of the cab wall - that brass thing just in front of the cab wall. 

Crosshead water pump only to the engineer's side - mix of technology, best of both systems! 

















More here: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d14b.htm 

Similar set up on CCRR #7 Porter from 1877: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d0f.htm 

Similar set up on the 1874 Martha's Vinyard Porter:
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d10a.htm 

However this Danforth Cooke 4-2-4T from 1963 has only crosshead water pumps, in injectors at all. The pumps are fitted to both sides: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d16.htm 

However the same loco rebuilt in 1875 had injectors only to both side, with the pumps removed: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d0d-a.htm 
You can see the brass injectors in the cab. 
The Masterclass on this loco instructs the making of these lil injectors, but you can buy castings too. 

The 1871 Shou-wa-no of the D&RG had crosshead pump to the fireman's side, and early injector to the engineer's side: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d14a.htm 

As did E&P #6 2-6-0: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3g.htm 

This Rogers from 1877 has injectors to both sides as well as the crosshead pump to the engineer's side in a set up much like you were asking about: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d13c.htm 

Here is the 1875 4-4-0 'Marin' from the North Pacific Coast, fitted only with crosshead pumps to the inside of the crossheads.



























and finally - the standard gauge 1873 4-4-0 for the Virginia & Truckee #18 'Dayton', fitted with crosshead pump to the engineer's side and injector to the fireman's side. Note in this case the designer AJ Stevens on the Central Pacific RR painted the pump black as part of the loco's basic colour scheme, or all black with red wheels below the running boards and chocolate brown above the running boards. He didn't want the pump to stand out in brass.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-20.jpg

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-28.jpg

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-33.jpg



The position of the pumps vary from loco to loco, some are fitted to the outside of the crosshead, with the pump itself mounted to the rear crosshead guides, others typically 4-4-0s have the pump mounted inboard on the loco frame, with the connection to the pump from behind, such as the Danforth 4-2-4T, Marin or Dayton above.

Sorry I flooded you with all this pump and injector stuff, but I've seen you asking this question in other forums and didn't believe you really were given a useful answer (assuming I speaking to the same fellow!). If there was only one other suggestion I would make to your really inspiring Civil War Bachmann 4-4-0 loco bash, start thinking about boiler jackets of Russia Iron, that metallic grey colour. You will discover that painted or coloured boiler jackets, while the norm in the UK in this era, were almost unheard of in the US. The USMR used a number of William Mason locos, almost identical to the 'William Mason' that Brian showed, and all were built and operated with Russia Iron boiler jackets along with most builders. Russia Iron was an unpainted sheet Iron, heat and pressure treated to make it rust proof, with natural blued, or gun metal grey reflective colour...no paint. 

The green jacket on the William Mason today is a left over from her role in the movie Wild Wild West with Will Smith, where she played the roll as the 'Wanderer', was restored to working order and repainted the dark green. Its a great job, only the boiler shouldn't be green.
The SMR brass O scale locos of the USMR Mason engines are about as good as you'll get - colour schemes and finished researched by a prominant RR historian, check out those deep colours and Russia Iron jacket...all with crosshead water pumps only, fitted to both sides, pre injectors!

http://www.smrtrains.com/model_engines2.htm

David.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

David,

I've gotten some pretty comprehensive answers to various questions on this board, but I believe your's is about the most detailed of all. Would that I knew how to save this particular post.

Thank you for the pictures, and taking time with the explanations, and links.

Les


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

*Danforth-Cooke *historic photo

Hi there:

Here is a link to a photo said to be either a Baldwin or Danforth-Cooke*.* 
locomotive *WEB 98*


http://www.taplines.net/weboone/weboone.html

David Fletcher can tell us if the loco WEB 98 is a Baldwin or Danforth-Cooke*.*

Either way, interesting photos.

Norman


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks William Mason to me, or more possibly Manchester works. Definitely not Baldwin, nor Danforth, complete wrong styling. But who knows if this is a bitsa - rebuilt with various bits...
Check the bell rig and headlight bracket - Not standard Baldwin or Danforth, more like Mason or Manchester. See how the bell rig incorporates the hand rails - that was a Mason patent design, but others followed this design also, especially Manchester, the sand dome isn't quite Mason. I think this is Manchester Locomotive Works, or a private RR shops effort, quite a few RR shops used these elements in their own locomotive design. Manchester style.
David.


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