# An Observation on Public Interest



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

We had very few people dropping by Bob Starr's track at last weekend's NGRC relative to the number of people actually attending the Con. We were on a second story balcony with a couple of signs point to us. 

We had a similar experience at last year's BTS when we were off to the side under a huge canopy. Compared to previous years at the Queen, where we were out in the parking lot and people had to walk past us to enter the show, attendance was WAY off! 

Based upon these experiences, I've come to the conclusion that unless the live steam is "in their face," many (most?) won't go out of their way to see it. Their attitude is that they really aren't interested in live steam, and if they see it, fine, and if they don't, also fine. However, when, like it was at the Queen, they have to pass by it to get where they are going, THEN it has a chance to capture their attention as they see it, and THEN they realize just how cool it really is! 

Anyone had similar experiences at shows they attend?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, 
This is a sad fact, but is like most of the hobby, the less the public see it directly, the less likely they are to go and find it.

Harry Quirk and a few other told me of their escapade at the NGRS convention in Reston, Vrigina..1992 I believe it was. The only level spot for the Quirk brothers to setup their track was on the top of the parking garage of the convention center.

Turns out that the day they setup, it was 105* with no shade and no relief from the heat. The only signs that pointed to the layout were far and few between inside the convention center, and hardly any people knew about it.

Finally, a melted shay boiler and sunburnt skin later, one of the steamers said, "There's got to be a better way we can enjoy this hobby". Well, that steamer happened to be Jerry Reshew, the founder of Diamondhead.

DH is a perfect example of how inexposed our niche corner of the hobby is, as the steamup is limited to word of mouth and in the few specific magazines catering to us steam nuts. It's the fact of life, much like a rare species of plant or animal, unless you see it firsthand, it's never believed, yet hardly anyone wants to breakaway from the mainstream to go find it.

Not that it's a bad thing, otherwise the prices for distilled water would skyrocket! What a shocking calamity!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It might also be a problem with terminology. Most people do not understand the terms "Live Steam", or "Steam Up" (or the various spellings of "SteamUp", "steam-up", etc.). 

I know when I talk to people, those terms are either completely ignored or produce a "glazed eye" look. 

But, if I say I have a "real steam locomotive" they first look upwards, indicating maybe that they have some idea that a steam locomotive is "big" and would probably tower over them. I then say it is a miniature that runs on steam just like the ones the railroads used to use. At that statement, about half get the glazed eye look and I know they will never care. But the other half at least feigns some interest and some get a bit excited about it. 

I know that "Live Steam" is a technically correct term, but it is an old term and few if any people know that it means steam containing energy and capable of doing work, (as opposed to just boiling off an open pan over the stove burner or the condensed water vapor that most people associate with the word "steam"). 

I think a sign that says "Live Steam --->" only indicates that there is a demonstration of electric trains that look like steam locomotives, and since it is a "demonstration", they probably have already missed the seating time for "this session" and besides they are at the "train show" just to wander around and look at the cute toys, not get stuck in some "demonstration". 

I am not sure just what the sign ought to say, but it has to be worded in terms that the general public would have some idea of what it means. Unfortunately, it may take more words that could fit on a small sign or be read with a casual glance whilst someone is wandering around at a "toy train show".


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think that was one of the biggest weaknesses of the convention--how disconnected things seemed. I actually never made it to the steam track, and I'm a live steamer!!! Heck, it wasn't until Friday that I saw one of the signs pointing to where it was. I'm still not convinced I saw all the dealer rooms, and dad and I both missed clinics because we couldn't find the rooms. I'm not trying to slam the organizers in the least--things were marked, and had I had my book with me, I could have probably navigated much easier. It was simply the layout of the hotel in general that made things a little disjointed. I do have to wonder why the steam-up track couldn't have been set up in one of the many courtyards. 

I also think the schedule may have had somewhat of an impact on attendance also. If you were out on the tours, then the only time you could hit the steam-up track was between 3 and 5 pm, allowing for travel time. Since the hours on the dealer hall were similarly limited--and often competing with the steam-up track--I can see how most would opt to hit the dealers rather than the steam-up track. 

Having said that, the dealer hall was noticeably vacant of live steam. Accucraft had their booth, but their stuff is as much electric as live steam. Roundhouse, Regner, and other live steam folks were noticeably (to me) absent. Even Aristo's booth wasn't pushing their live steam stuff. You could visit every vendor there and not know live steam was part of the hobby. Heck, with the exception of one railroad on tour, live steam was not present on those, either. Even if we could interest people in live steam, the opportunities for on-site commercial support weren't there. They'd likely go home with fond memories and a few cool photos, but that's about it. Without that, it's always going to be a pursuit where you have to take great steps to get involved. 

Later, 

K


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, in some ways I disagree with you Dwight. I did go into the show not expcting many people steaming and was surprised and pleased that as many came. But, I had people that came upstairs and were pissed when they found no trains running at the very moment they arrived. My theory on that is that they expect something to be running all the time like electric trains do. The biggest problem is the vast majority of the public has no clue how our trains work and can certainly make you smile with the questions they ask (I am trying to be diplomatic here). And this includes the people attending the show that run electric trains! That being said, Dwight, you missed our busiest day, Saturday, and we had quite a few people. At one point Stan counted 68 people standing around watching. And we also had a nice core group of people who just came up and sat; talked or whatever while we ran trains. You could tell they just prefered to be there sitting in the shade and would ask a question every now and then; they were not all steamers. I agree that the show was a bit too spread out. My feet are sore from all the walking I did just to get to my bungalow room! 
From my experience in the retail business, I have become a bit cynical. When you are dealing with the public, you have to slap them in the face with what you are selling or they just don't see it. That also goes for being out of the way. This is why I am going to have more banners for the BTS this year. Steam at the QM was not as popular in the first years either until I took over the track. Nobody had a clue nine years ago what live steam was and Accucraft did not even exist then! 
What it boils down to is promotion and devotion! We will get there at the BTS and the crowds will find us! 
And, yes Kevin, I was looking for you to come up to the track tsk tsk


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight brought up a good subject.. We have open houses and a group get-together course ours is track power but we talk to a lot of visitors that don't know about trains. They go goggle eyed when they see something the size of our scale running out doors. 
So we talk to them and they ask a lot of questions and a lot of them are about steam Eng's. They tell stories of what their Dad's told them or old timers have seen in their days.. We tell them that there are clubs all over to show all scales of trains running and on home layouts like ours. 
They starting telling us how they use to have a Lionel or American Flyer when they were kids but they seem to go around in a loop and gets boring after 30 mins. or so. 
Then one couple told me, ya.. we seen some live miniature steam Eng's. going around and around until it ran out of steam. Like a Wind up train. Runs down and wind it up again. 
Ya... when they have shows or conventions they alway have them out in the hottest area they can find. (No Shade.)and always away from the other trains. Guess some organizers think they will catch things on fire if in a building. 
Have you ever seen steam Eng's in our scale working switch yards or moving cars around?. (I think someone on here in MLS com. not to long ago showed how to work Kedees with a radio controlled steam Eng.and thats about it.) 
So most people that go to these shows want to be inside where it's cool and can talk to the clubs that have extra people to promote the hobby. And most are not Steam powered. 
To get people out to see them lots of advertising is needed. Have club member to tell them just what is going on to run a Steam Eng. and to ans. question at the tables or etc. Maybe on what it takes to run like the real steam Eng's. had to do to get a wheel turning. 
On the Elect. motor side of the hobby, there is more on operations and rolling stock that is being pulled. Long trains, working the sound card like a real Eng. whether it is a Diesel or Steam Eng. 
So this is the comments of live steam we have heard. and its a shame at these shows that they put them outside away from the main traffic and the other side is promoting the ability of what a STEAM UP is. And not just going around in a loop until it runs down. 
I've been to some home layouts that have steam and I seen what they can do, and the sound when starting up a small grade. It's like the real thing that the operator has to work that Eng. to get it to pull or slow down on a small grade. Like we can with our elect. power Eng's. 
I seen Dwight's Cab forward at a train show here in Sacramento Conv. Center. and it took me about 20 mins. to look it over on a siding on how he built it.. And thinking to myself, lots of work to make it a running model that works on Steam.. And Ya. indoors and cool too. 
The bottom line is, Steam needs to be more advertised and do more with them to show that there not just a Ruby going around until it winds down. 
So asking other, when at a show or being a host, did you see the steam trains. 
A lot of people seeing a sign to the stream trains figure they are riding trains. 
They will also ask, where are they at? Is there a Steam train layout? 
I personal think Steam UPS get a bad rap due to the location they set aside for them at shows. These are fascinating machines and need to be more promoted with more signs and doll up the running tables and have members to talk to at the site to promote them puffies. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember one added thing I hear at a train show in Roseville, Ca. 
A woman told me she didn't like the kids getting around Steam ups areas due to the kids can burn them self by touching a live stammer going by. 
I told her I wish I have a electric fence transformer to put on our (track power) track when the kids put there finger on the rails to derail a $600.00 trains. 
She grabbed her kids and left the table. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin's observation speaks volumes: 
"Having said that, the dealer hall was noticeably vacant of live steam. Accucraft had their booth, but their stuff is as much electric as live steam. Roundhouse, Regner, and other live steam folks were noticeably (to me) absent. Even Aristo's booth wasn't pushing their live steam stuff. You could visit every vendor there and not know live steam was part of the hobby. Heck, with the exception of one railroad on tour, live steam was not present on those, either. Even if we could interest people in live steam, the opportunities for on-site commercial support weren't there. They'd likely go home with fond memories and a few cool photos, but that's about it. Without that, it's always going to be a pursuit where you have to take great steps to get involved. " 
One would think that Accucraft would have at least an operating treadmill but better yet team up the the "real steam" track getting those who visited their vendor table out to the track (even if it took a personal escort). I was disappointed by Aristocraft at the ECLSTS not having any "real steam" on display this year. 
Bob is correct "show and tell" in their face is the only promotion that works. Yet, there is a need for operational aspects and accessories (like icing on a cake). The problem with operations is that trains need to stop, get the orders, etc and without the "Lionel type" actions then the audience is not interested in time table operations. Seem that they do like "fast" trains, coal fired and RC (some observations). 
Yet, if one does get someone interested then comes the sticker shock. Accucraft seems to have responded with the new 1:29 offering but that is only one choice in a relative introductory level price range. Live steamers are competing against many other aspects of the hobby with lots of choices and bang for the buck. Oh, by the way- kids are key to the wallet. A better way to explain to a parent relative to concerns is to ensure adult supervision is available as with electric sets- given a young person could be harmed playing with electric trains also. 
Great to hear about the effort made at the show, keep the steam up!


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Most people that stop by to watch the trains don't have a clue of what they are looking at. Even with all the signs, steam from the stacks, whistles, and even the smell of coal or alcohol doesn't change anything. I've spoke with people that had been watching us run for some time before they got that dumb, surprised look on their faces and say something like "you mean these are real steam engines?" Then the questions and comments start. What fuel do we use? How long do they run? I NEVER KNEW SOMETHING LIKE THIS EXISTED! How much do they cost? Where can I learn more about them? WHO SELLS THEM? (I would guess that we hand out several dealers cards per show) And of course they insist on putting their hand over the smoke stack to verify that there is heat coming out of it. 
The last show I brought the H.O. steamers. That was also fun to hear the comments. Good thing the runs were flawless! Made it look easy. 








The Michigan Small Scale Live Steamers have picked up several of our members from shows that we were exhibiting at when they saw us. We have been treated well by show sponsors in the past and are lucky that they understand our requirements. Most of the time we are even given spots by the main delivery access doors for easier loading and unloading of track and equipment. We just have to keep getting the word out to people. Just remember........... STEAM THEM AND THEY WILL COME!


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok my brain is not totally engaged today but let me share some thoughts....I know it's very dangerous to do that but here goes anyway. 

Iv'e been aware of live steam models from a very young age. Fascinating but it seemed unatainable. Too dangerous too expensive and just simply to "keep your hands off kid" for me. Had someone in my family or a close friend been involved I likely would have been much more involved at a much earlier age. I can remember a friend in high school having a live steam steam roller from Mamod or Wilesco? It beigna very expensive "toy" for him from his father I was only allowed to watcha dn not touch. Ok that's cool, he wasn't even allowed to run it without supervision (we were in high school and it ran on pellets) so let go play with something else then? Many years later I'm working at Niagara Hobby in Buffalo and they sell a little of everything including some Wilesco and Mamod. At times I got to play with some of the many things they sold but I never got to play with those toys. Not for lack of interest but it ws more a limited supply issue. That store did a big "show" in the fall and a few years we had the local WNY Live Steam club come a do demos and in the many hobby related shows that I attended and worked those guys had their ride on live steamers usually running on compressed air if at all but they were not very approachable and I was on the clock anyway. It still seemed in the realm of much too much time to engineer and build one for the amount of free time I had. Keep in mind for me at that time I was working 3 jobs and still wasn't making ends meet really. There was NO extra time and very little extra money. That consumed my 20's and a good share of my 30's. I ahd attened the Trian races at Ridge Road station towards the beginning of my 30's and watched Tom Bowdler with his portable layout and at that this I relaized that live steam would run with and on my paltry little amount of large scale track and trains. They were still out of my price range BUT it was something I could get into without a huge investment in time or money, eventually. As time went on and my life changed. I found I was no longer working 3 jobs to survive, and had a little extra money from time to time. I've no longer got time to attend the Train races (sorry Tom & Scot) it's simply falls the wrong time of year for me! A few years ago thru the efforts of those folks ehre in MLS I purchased a Ruby kit with the intention of bashing it. Sometime shortly after that I had the opportunity to purchase a used Ruby and did so and Iv'e been steaming that up from time to time for any and all that are interested. In the meantime my participation at ANY shows where there are live steam demos has been lacking. I hope to change that at some point soon but it's all in the timing. Tom was always very gracious and open about his setup at the Train Races and I can only imagine that it's continued? Reagardless of the weather good or bad. 

Chas


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I was introduced to live steam by Kevin about 12 years ago and we began our association with the RRStation train races shortly after that. Our first ground-level efforts were a disaster, leading to tables and then to constructing two raised portable layouts. 
I've heard every dumb question and sometimes have been embarrased not knowing the answer but overall everyone who visits our layout seems fascinated with the concept of live steam. Our offer to run at a twice-yearly train show in Rochester was turned down since "live steam is too esoteric...we concentrate on what the public might have at home...I can't imagine running live steam on the living room rug around the Christmas tree" but other than that we have been very well received at even non-railroad events like the recent Chick Day, a garden center open house and a local Fourth of July celebration. 
My tactics are to try to draw folks in by asking them questions about their interests and I even let kids (and sometimes adults) blow the whistle and set the throttle to get the locomotive going. We have a display table where we put the locos that aren't running so the public can see the wide variety of live steamers available. At the Greenberg show this winter I gave a seminar "Intro to live steam" and it was well attended, folks intently watching as I prepped a loco to run on rollers and talked a little theory while it built steam. I guess the term "steamup" can be a little misleading as I see on another MLS forum that a "steamup" was held but all I saw in the pictures were sparkies with sound systems. 
Due to effort required and cost considerations I don't think live steam will ever be mainstream model railroading but for those with the ability and wherewithall it can be an enjoyable aspect of the model train hobby. Many times we're asked the cost and my answer is anywhere from $250 to 20 grand. Normally that's enough but sometimes they want more so I'll point to an A-craft Shay or Mogul and tell the approximate street price. One questioner nodded very knowlegably telling me he was into On3 brass, similarly priced, no wonder On30 is so popular. 
At least I and the folks who help me have a great time getting together and running our trains and if we can get one or two others hooked then the efforts are worthwhile. Now if we could just guarantee good weather each time we set up out doors. 
Come join us May 17 at Ridge Road Station. 
Have fun, 
Tom


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bob Starr on 05/06/2008 12:16 AM

«snip...» From my experience in the retail business, I have become a bit cynical. When you are dealing with the public, you have to slap them in the face with what you are selling or they just don't see it. That also goes for being out of the way. «snip...»
Bob et al

I know I'm not a "Live Steamer", but off the top of my head. It seems that the main point being expressed is lack of *Attention*.

Well, I think you've overlooked the obvious. In the days when steam powered locomotives were doing the work. Just what was it that first grabbed your attention? I'd bet dollars to donuts that it was the *Steam Whistle*. Have you ever considered getting hold of an actual 1:1 whistle. While I realize that running one off steam is impractical, couldn't you run it off compressed air. Heck even if they can't see anything, they sure can hear it, and pique their interest in finding out "What was that?"


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

To start, yes, I have brought one to one steam whistles to shows and stationary steam engines too. The problem with running a whistle on air is that you need a very large air tank to be effective; impractical at this time for all that I already carry. 
As far as running operations at a show, it is a bit impractical too. It takes quite a bit of time just to set up my oval of track and adding more switching capabilities would be hard. As it is I have six switches on my layout and getting people to remember to reset them......... Anyway, a bit of the beauty of steam power is merely the operation of a piece of good machinery working on it's own. I would say that more than 90% of the electric train people just run their trains thru a layout anyway; at least that is what I see. Turn on the power, grab a beer, and watch the trains go thru the yard. I don't think that people stop and think that we are involved when we operate our engines in a totally different way. The aspect that it is a piece of machinery dependent on it's own power does not occur to them.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Every year, the O. Winston Link Museum (the famous B&W train photographer) http://www.linkmuseum.org/ has a rail fan day. The Museum is in the old Roanoke N&W passenger station. There are sparky setups, ride-on 7-1/2 inch live steam, rail cars to climb on, and lots of other train related stuff. I usually run a live steamer or two on rollers. Three years ago, the museum had a 1:1 whistle driven by live steam on display. It drove all the attendees nuts because it was so loud. Even though Roanoke is a railroad town, the whistle has not been invited back.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

We'll see what happens at this year's BTS Bob. I may have missed the busiest day (though I did catch part of it), but I still didn't see crowds of observers like we used to get at the Queen where we were much more part of the show. And I wasn't talking about people steaming on your track - I was talking about non-steamer show attendees. I do know that you and I spent a fair amount of time by ourselves, and another fair amount of time with other steamers, but few onlookers.  

Anyway, like I said, we'll see what happens at the BTS. If JJ's gonna make you a bigger sign, perhaps Semper has a point and instead of saying "Live Steam" it should say "Come See the Real Steam Locomotives." Anyway, I'll leave that up to you.  

Glad you made it home okay BTW.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Lots of it has to do with presentation. People coming to train shows go to them to see detailed layouts. Layouts fitted with every scenery imaginable, with trains that run like they have a purpose, with stations, goods yards, towns, lots of trees, grass that looks freshly mown etc. They do not come to see an engine running on a plywood table lying on some track. 

When our club as an open day, there are no people running h0 or N at home that come. Those coming are interested in engineering, metalworking etc. Or just passer-by's that hop in to see what is happening. We get more interested reactions from them than from "railroadmodellers".


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

We've found that a radio controlled Weltyk's Whistle, is a big hit with the kids. Only the whistle is radio controlled, so that, outside of running us out of steam, they can't screw up the operation of the locomotive.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By weaverc on 05/06/2008 11:16 AM
Every year, the O. Winston Link Museum (the famous B&W train photographer) http://www.linkmuseum.org/ has a rail fan day. The Museum is in the old Roanoke N&W passenger station. There are sparky setups, ride-on 7-1/2 inch live steam, rail cars to climb on, and lots of other train related stuff. I usually run a live steamer or two on rollers. Three years ago, the museum had a 1:1 whistle driven by live steam on display. It drove all the attendees nuts because it was so loud. Even though Roanoke is a railroad town, the whistle has not been invited back.
I hear what you're saying Carl, but that only tells me they really don't have railroading in their blood. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif

When I was a young kid, I lived on E. Lane Ave. in Columbus, Ohio. The house sat just a little bit farther than the length of a football field from mainline tracks of the NYC & PRR, and I can still remember falling to sleep listening to the Pennsylvania J-1 & J-1As pulling long coal drags north out of Grogan Yard headed to the coal docks in Sandusky. From those days to present day I still find little sweeter than the sound of a locomotive's whistle.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

A few comments - 

-First, if you are looking to get more interest in live steam, you might want to post this in the Public forum instead of the Live steam forum. Most of us 'sparkies' usually skip over this forum. This is also part of the reason for a lack of interest. The live steam guys usually segregate themselves often with an air of superiority. There tends to not be a lot of interaction. 

-The live steam tables set up at events don't tend to be terribly interesting. Not even a hint of a garden setting. Adding a bit of scenery could go a long way to correct that, either a modular set up or teaming up with a club display. 

-Scott Loomis (chama) hosted the club last fall and it was the first time I had to get a look at live steamers up close. Usually keeping folks at arms length is the rule. Its tough to be interested if the only way you'll get to try something is to buy your own. A bit more reach out is in order. 

-Most folks have a hard enough time keeping the sparkies running. A simple, easy and ready to run live steamer that doesn't cost an arm and a leg could get more folks interested. The Aristo Rodgers or 0-4-0 might fix that. 

-Brian


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian 
While several aspects of your observations merit consideration, I have never seen a group of real steam engineers that are stand offish or having an air of superiority. Particularly, given the vast majority of live steamers grow up with sparkies! 
"First, if you are looking to get more interest in live steam, you might want to post this in the Public forum instead of the Live steam forum. Most of us 'sparkies' usually skip over this forum. This is also part of the reason for a lack of interest. The live steam guys usually segregate themselves often with an air of superiority. There tends to not be a lot of interaction." 
Though a level of safety is prudent, most everyone is able communicate and interact during a meet. As I indicated in the prior post the aspect of "Lionel style" layouts on our "portable" vs. modular layouts is limited in structure and running time as per the schedule board. 
As to posting in the other forum, not likely given the format of the website has section as per interest, so stop by-lots of things are discussed that will allow even a "sparkie" to become better informed. 
Finally, if one can RC a sparkie, then it is just a step away from RC live steam. As to cost, the new 1:29 Accucraft offering and the Ruby are within most sparkie budgets. 
Good to have you offer suggestions


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 05/05/2008 9:22 PM
Dwight, 
This is a sad fact, but is like most of the hobby, the less the public see it directly, the less likely they are to go and find it.


Harry Quirk and a few other told me of their escapade at the NGRS convention in Reston, Vrigina..1992 I believe it was. The only level spot for the Quirk brothers to setup their track was on the top of the parking garage of the convention center.


Turns out that the day they setup, it was 105* with no shade and no relief from the heat. The only signs that pointed to the layout were far and few between inside the convention center, and hardly any people knew about it.


Finally, a melted shay boiler and sunburnt skin later, one of the steamers said, "There's got to be a better way we can enjoy this hobby". Well, that steamer happened to be Jerry Reshew, the founder of Diamondhead.


DH is a perfect example of how inexposed our niche corner of the hobby is, as the steamup is limited to word of mouth and in the few specific magazines catering to us steam nuts. It's the fact of life, much like a rare species of plant or animal, unless you see it firsthand, it's never believed, yet hardly anyone wants to breakaway from the mainstream to go find it. 
Not that it's a bad thing, otherwise the prices for distilled water would skyrocket! What a shocking calamity!





Ryan:

(great, but you set yourself up) You think you are "a rare species of plant or animal" ROTF LOL LOL /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif, the rest of us are just trains guys boiling water. We leave the plant and animal thing to botanists or biologist.  



No wonder! 105 Virgina means summer 80-100% humidity - outside in that is crazy. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif Same as reports of summer steamup in CA - 115+, it's not outside is it? 



Can't see water prices going real high, no cartel and we got the oceans. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  



I just can not worry about the masses and don't see the point. I do not need a crowd of non-believers to have steaming fun. 



Steamers are closer to car collectors, like to get their hands in grease. Grease isn't for everyone, 99%, neither is steam oil w/toy trains. Cars and steam cost money, a lot of money, or lots a real lot of dedication and expertice building your own, like yours 



But remember where I come from, I just hack at steam. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By altterrain on 05/06/2008 4:09 PM
A few comments -



-First, if you are looking to get more interest in live steam, you might want to post this in the Public forum instead of the Live steam forum. Most of us 'sparkies' usually skip over this forum. This is also part of the reason for a lack of interest. The live steam guys usually segregate themselves often with an air of superiority. There tends to not be a lot of interaction.



-The live steam tables set up at events don't tend to be terribly interesting. Not even a hint of a garden setting. Adding a bit of scenery could go a long way to correct that, either a modular set up or teaming up with a club display. 



-Scott Loomis (chama) hosted the club last fall and it was the first time I had to get a look at live steamers up close. Usually keeping folks at arms length is the rule. Its tough to be interested if the only way you'll get to try something is to buy your own. A bit more reach out is in order. 



-Most folks have a hard enough time keeping the sparkies running. A simple, easy and ready to run live steamer that doesn't cost an arm and a leg could get more folks interested. The Aristo Rodgers or 0-4-0 might fix that. 


-Brian




Brian: 

We are just a bunch of sobs - make effort to get to know us, you will like it and us. (Experiences with kids and parents, insurance and the fire depts segragates us.)


It's about steam manchines not gardening - too busy hands on running to garden or make scale buildings. Besides all that bending over is way too much work.


No way some kids (or adult) fingers get close to my (cost both arms and both legs) steam loco. I don't want to get sued - and probably would - and paranoid of most people since it is that one time proves to be the worst mistake - many stories out there.


Aristo Mike steamer was supposed to be the "simple, easy and ready to run live steamer that doesn't cost an arm and a leg" - was as much work, trouble, hard to run as any other steamer. Steam means work, hands dirty and all the rest. Like cars, you either like grease or you don't. Have to explain it they wont get it anyway.


Most of us walked away from sparks (some do both), cause they were too easy, no challenge and no real enough. Smelled burning steam oil or coal we were hooked, addicted. Besides, steam oil tastes sooooo good with food.


I guees I'm not with the rest. Steaming I don't see as a popularity contest, it's special, for special people and (SNL) we feel special. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif 

If everybody did steam then I have to find something else - and I'm too old to start over again.


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

Altterrain, frankly, I could take offense to your statement that we as live steamers are elitest. If that were the case I would not bother bringing out my track to these events to make it possible for others to see our trains. It might be fun and enjoyable, but it is damn hard work and costly! I would also like to point out that the current track was built by "sparkies" that wanted to help keep live steam going. And after helping build the track have developed an interest in live steam. 
Having scenery on a live steam track is impracticle to say the least. There are times engines stop and need to be serviced or have a problem during a run. If there is scenery in the way it can get in the way. Club displays do not want steam running on there track because it hampers ther electrical connection or destroys there scenery with oil and water. 
I am sorry that you have had a bad experience around live steamers, but I have no problem with people wanting to get up close. I do resent parents that do not control their children tho. But if you want to come to my track, I will explain any part of an engine, let you look in the smokebox and see the fire. I might make you stand back if I think hot water will spray or that you are not showing normal prudence. Life is full of idiots who didn't learn as children that a hot stove will burn them. 
Granted, steamers aren't for everyone. Heck, trains aren't for everyone either. But if you want to learn how to run one it isn't hard. You would not jump into a sailboat and start sailing around the world without learning how to sail first, and that would go for many other things too. 
Yep! I guess I took offense to your post and, if you want, I will put it in the public forum


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

It's not as simple as "trains is trains". Electric, plastic, "GEE" scale is a totally different hobby apart from, and unlike Gauge 1 tracked live steam; no matter the scale. Sparkie "O" and HO players also have no interest in the live steam movement. I don't understand the need to try to convert the toy boxers to our form of hands on model engineering. Leave them be. 

Our sense of model railroading is very different. Sparkies run on the ground while steamers prefer elevated trackwork. I have a railroad in the garden, but don't want a garden railroad. I think that most of us live steamers don't want to muck with buildings and other model real estate. Heck, many steamers are just fine with running just a locomotive, sans consist, around and around and around again, amen already. It's a different hobby. I said that to Jack Verducci in 2001 when we discovered a conflict in dates (double booking) between an electric event and a live steam event. I'd encourage anybody to chat up Jim McDavid at the Summer Steamup about his adventures with live steam and the BAGRS management in 2000. A hint would be that's where the "Pacific Coast Live Steamers" deal started, and it was a hard birth. Oh, and ask Paul Brink about who "owns" the brand new, tripple tracked, live steam loop that is used here in Sacramento at many public events. It's managed by the live steam Special Intrest Group (SIG) of the local sparkie club, but the title to the track and its management reside outside the clup; quite a story. 

Paul Brink and I ran live steam on his portable track here (Sacramento, CA) at the National Garden Railroad Convention a couple a five years ago, and he and I had a fine day or two doing that, but not many attending sparkies cared or noticed. We were located in the way of a major entrance where hundreds of folks had to pass us by as they entered or exited the main building. Most of them, especially the distaffs, hurmphuffed around the "blockage" at the portal, and for the most part ignored us. The cold shoulder did not dissuade either one of us, but there was one thing that caught my attention. That one thing was that the members of the local sparkie garden railroad club, who also had some live steam locos (mostly 0-4-0s like Rubys, Janes, and Billys), were verrrrrry conspicuous by their absence from the live steam scene and Paul's track during the term of the venue. I wonder what that was all about? 

The last little data point that might illuminate to the "two different hobbies" postulation is this. Three years prior to the Sacramento convention, the local host club asked me to present a live steam workshop for an hour or so as a formal National Convention event. I agreed, even though I was not a club member (I had been a member once, but I quit when they started to publish cookie recipes in the monthly newsletter). So on the appointed afternoon I schleped a bunch of my live steam stuff over to the hotel and put on a show. It was 110% standing room only, attended by 60 to 80 people, and it, to my mind, went well. I ran a Cricket on the room's rug ala the something-or-other-Dribbler of English fame, and answered a million questions. I even got to meet some of my live steam customers from the Right Coast (I used to hop-up Mamods and Janes). I honestly don't think that I made any converts to live steam, but the A-Haa moment arrived when, after re-schlepping all my gear, including my Aster Big Boy, back to my car, I tried to gain entry into the "dealer's room" for quick tour of the toys on display before I returned home for the day. I was stopped at the door because I did not have a convention badge! OK. Fair enough for a technicality, but like, all that effort for a garden railroad club that I did not belong to..........? And so not being the shy and retiring type, I buttonholed one of the local host club's High-Pubaas and pleaded my case for unfettered entrance. Guess what? I was treated to a homily that identified me, and my live steam menagerie, as "talent" that was brought in for the day to entertain the sparkies through a possibly boring hot summer's afternoon, and since I did not have an event badge, and was not a local host club member, there was just no way that I could gain enterance to the great hall of railroading eye candy. In the end I prevailed by borrowing Paul's badge and flashing it at the gate keeper in the inverted positiion. 

So yea!! It's a funny story, and I was never really offended, but I think that my experience speaks volumes to the chasm that does exist between sparkies and live steamers. And more to the point, when I put on the first ever National Summer Steamup in Sacramento in 2001 (Canterburry Inn Hotel Convention Center) it never even remotely occurred to me to invite a sparkie contingent! It was tough enough to deal with the strong opinions expressed about the Wada semi-diesel/electric, and what-do-they-think-their-doing-here-on-live-steam-tracks crowd! 

So in closing my position is that I will show up at any live steam track that I can get to, and run as much as I can, irrespective of the venue (steam/electric/clock-work), and I'll not waste any time feeling bad because any group or individual ignores my presence or chooses to not to participate in my joy. 

Kevin O'Connor


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## pdq23t (Jan 3, 2008)

As coordinator for the live steam area at the NGRC 2008, I thought it went rather well. We did at times have only a few observers arround the track but most of the time around twenty to thirty people were watching and asking questions of the people running steam engines. As Bob mentioned, I did count as high as sixty eight people Sat. We were at the track as early as 7AM and most nights running until 10 PM. We even had some that bought a steam engine from the venders because of our conversations with them. I must thank Bob for bringing his track for us to run on. Dwight's cab forward also brought a lot of interesting comments. As for the problem of live steam inside a building or close to populated areas such as venders, a lot of it has to do with fire marshall rules, hotel policies, and insurance policies. We met with these folks several times, but in this day of lawsuits everyone has to be very carefull thus resulting in some less desirable solutions then what we would have liked. 

Stan Cornforth


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## HeliconSteamer (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
I find your statements about live steamers to be completely opposite from my experience as an outsider and now after five years in the group. I spent several hours drooling over and admiring the various locos on display and running on the track and was offered a chance to run one. I honestly don't think you will find many groups that will do that. I was welcomed as a part of the group even as a complete novice and instantly felt at home. Live steam brings with it a comeraderie that I have yet to see in any other segment of the hobby. Our group welcomes sparkies to attend any of our events and there is a statement to that end in our monthly schedule blurb in the club newsletter. There are a few that occasionally come, but not many and not frequently. 

I am not in the slightest bothered by a lack of viewers at a show. Last fall we exhibited at a show in a community gymnasium on the second floor along with a small 7.5 inch gauge demonstration track. We drew a fair number of visitors, but they came up mostly for the short train ride and looked at our layout as a sidebar. True, we don't have scenery or strucures, but as previously noted, these can hamper progress in case of necessary, rapid action. My feeling about show goers is that they tend to go toward exhibits that interest them and leave the rest. Even though we as steamers may not get the exposure that other groups do, we still manage to reach a portion of the audience and spread information about steam.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting dichotomy of opinions here. Some feel that the Live Steam cadre are 'unfriendly' and others say the opposite. Some are, understandably, taking a wee bit of offense at the statements. 

I am trying to decide if I am really as "friendly" as I perceive myself to be... especially when I am running my steamer in public (something I have NOT done much). 

I do see myself as a friendly person... Yet, I do realize that when I am prepping a steamer I am quite preoccupied with that preparation and when I am actively running one, I am a bit more preoccupied with the operation than what "I" perceive the usual sparkie Engineer is when running one of their trains. 

When the sparkie is placed on the rails, the Engineer can be distracted by questions or drawn away from the task at hand and there is no penalty except a delay in turning on the power. Likewise, when the train is running, the Engineer can wander off with almost total impunity. The worst that can happen is the train derails and causes a few sparks and creates the smell of ozone. Granted, bits and bobs of decoration can be broken off the engine and that can be relatively expensive, but that is the worst that happens. 

When a Live Steamer is placed on the rails, and the fire is lit, the Engineer really must not abandon his charge! The fire, water and pressure must be monitored. 

Butane burners have been known to go out, creating a flash hazard if some idiot with a cigarette wanders by. Or the fuel pressure can change causing the fire to shift to the smokebox instead of in the flue where it belongs, no steam gets created and the smokebox paint blisters, 

Alcohol burners need to be checked periodically for proper draft and flame or no steam gets generated or the fire escapse the firebox, possibly burning the ties under the track. 

These are not something that has to be "constantly" watched and fiddled with, but if you don't pay attention, you can have several problems that interfere with the fun of running trains... 

An ignored steamer can get into a bad state if you are not paying attention. 

Also, there is work to do while the steam pressure is coming up and if you are flapping your lips bragging about your steed, you will waste fuel and water while it is up to pressure and you are still "oiling around". 

While the Live Steamer is running the Engineer MUST pay attention to the water level and steam pressure. Well, okay some of the smaller, less expensive locos do not have those things and it will just run until the fuel is gone and you hope the boiler still has water in it. But if it runs out of water first, you need to "be there" to shut down the fire. 

If a Live Steamer derails, there are a couple of added reasons for the Engineer to be paying attention and not off looking at photos of someone else's track. First, and foremost, it won't be the smell of ozone caused by electrical sparks that will tell you of the problem. It'll be the smell of ties and track and trackside structures burning. Not to mention the helpful onlooker that will try to pick the HOT loco up to hand it to you. 

Additionally, for a given size and "detail" level, a Live Steam locomotive is quite often much more expensive than an electric train. You may be running a $600.00 model, but mine were $4,000... I am not really sure of this, but I think I would be less "possessive" of my engine if it had not been so dearly expensive. 

Given the above two differences in sparkies and Live Steamers, I find a child swinging his arms and legs near my Live Steam train a bit more disconcerting than what maybe others do. Given the things I have seen children do, and the parents that did not do anything to preclude the child doing it, I am quite nervous of putting my Live Steamers anywhere that a child can get near it... EXCEPT in a ONE on ONE relationship. I have given my R/C to a 3-year-old, but I had my hands around him, ready to catch it when he decided to throw it... (which he did!) 

I am not so "Unfriendly" as it may seem, I am "working". Maybe we Live Steamers need to work in teams? One to "work" and one (or two... or more) to field the questions and comments.


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

Fool proof ways to wins voters at a local KY election, maybe would work at train shows 

1) Offer free food and soda. 

2) Have some cute scantly clad college girls to serve people. 

3) Sell Beer but keep it in the cooler and serve it in plastic cups. 

4) Offer to hire people ( for capital refer to suggestion three ) to transport voters for the some of twenty dollars a head. 

Just Kidding! 

any events in the KY area? I would like to attend but wouldn't want to travel more than a couple states....


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

For the past several years, I've put on a live-steam demo at a local train show; the show, run by the Old Colony & Fall River RR Museum, is primarily oriented towards the smaller scales (HO & N) & Lionel / American Flyer tinplate trains. 
My display is the *ONLY*/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif Large Scale (either live steam OR "sparky") running at the show, & is about as simple as it gets (a large loop of track, with a siding for steaming up, on the floor)./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif This is in stark contrast to at least 2 very-nicely detailed modular HO layouts running there, as well as a beautiful  On30 layout I've seen from time to time. 
Guess who's layout (so I'm told/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif ) is the *hit of the show!*/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 

One of the main reasons for its popularity is that I an quick to hand off the RC control for the Accucraft Shay to the kids. (I tell them they can play "engineer", but I have to play "fireman"! 
/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif ). The show organizers have co-operated by having a "barrier" around the loop; I insisted on that this after past year after some bad experiences the prior year with *DEALER'S KIDS*/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif running wild around the loop!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif (The kids from the general public have generally been *very well-behaved & / or properly controlled by their parents!).* I also *have warning signs PROMINENTLY displayed around the loop that these are REAL steam locos & get VERY hot!*/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif (I think that the fact that the kids know they can get to RUN the trains discourages any potential "grabbies"!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif ). It also helps that Shay's *aren't fast!* (They obviously don't run it at anything less than full throttle!)./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 
A few weeks later I happened to catch a lengthy clip about the show on the local "cable access" news show; I think they had more footage of my simple display (with the kids fascinated by the "real steam train" puffing around), & also some clips of me explaining live-steam "care & feeding"/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif to some of the adults as well. Tom


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Way to go, Tom!!!!  

Congrats on making it actually appear to be the fun we all know it is! 

Best graders - 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd argue that my my early experiences with the Larger ride on guys that load up the huge masterpieces of engineering and maching will sit there and talk amongst themselves waiting for someone to ask the appropriate questions and seem very stand offish. NOT EVERYONE is a people person. Especially old men that spend MANY years in a workshop ALONE building these masterpieces. It's not their fault. Honestly! If I got o see the live steam set upat a show, I'm not interested in scenery. If I go to see live steam operate at someones layout or house I'll appreciate the whole package. Locos and trains and layout. Even the workshop if they'll show it to me too. 

The issue is more about public displays. Not at a Steamup where most attendees are knowledgeable and know the appropriate questions to ask and where to stand adn what to do and NOt do and WHEN. But rather how to deal with the un-initiated public at an ALL scales and types show or even a county fair or other event. 

In my very little experience in doing demos for the Cub scouts and the other groups I'm a member of I've found that in a simple demo i can do it by myself with a maximum of about 20 kids depending on behavior. The Cub scouts generally are pretty good. I found the Boy scouts a little more distracted and hyper but again it was a much larger group too. If I do a group that large again I want someone to help me. I'll do the talking but want to recruit someone else to handle the running. 

Now at an all scales show where the portable layout has been relegated to the back of the hall or been placed outside in an out of the way place, if the event organizers do not promote your location you need to do it yourselves in a professional manner! How to do that seems to be the question? 

I'm good in public where I do not ahve to "SELL" to people to are un-interested or who have a choice on where they want to be. The Boy scout demos are captive audiences. Steam up-s the folks that come generally WANT to be there. It's the same old story about how to drum up more interest without offending you or the public who simply do not care. Also remember that even the folks (kids and young adults) that are only marginally interested today may be avid live steam-aholics later in life! Do not be discouraged by all failures as sometimes they turn into a positve later in life! 

Just a few more thoughts for this morning. 

Chas


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, I have read all the above comments and here is my 2 penny worth. I run a live steam layout at shows in the UK and we always attract plenty of interest. For a start the layout has to be interesting and trains must be running constantly. We have twin tracks so 2 trains are always operating and a new train takes over every 30 minutes. Attract the public by looking interesting, ie. being scenic, and it must interest the children. My friends wife runs a simple "I spy" type of quiz for the little ones, where they have to spot things on the railway and all participants get a sweet for a prize. Once you have their interest they notice the live steam and the questions flow. " border=0>" 
A plain oval test track with a load of guys having a steam up is of no interest to the general public only other live steamers! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif" border=0>" 
For those that might be interested here is a promotional clip of my railway; 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZigAWG7O8I


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow thats a nice public display! 

They use to have a nice sparky G scale layout here in South Florida but one unfortunate day someone stole the trailer with the entire modular layout and a lot of there engines!. It pretty much destroyed the G Scale Sparky club down here. So make sure you secure your display trailer! 

On a side note: 
Then G Scale (Gauge 1) all but disappeared in South Florida (even the hobby shop guys state that the G Scale guys are scattered here). Been trying to start a club (addon to the existing 7.5" gauge guys) but its tough to find people down here. I will succeed though!! 

Andrew


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

In my case I deliberately avoided any contact with live steam for years as it was an expensive addiction. 

Unfortunately, that plan didn't work.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellent layout Rod! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZigAWG7O8I 
That's what I'm talking about. Obviously a ton of work but it shows live steam can be done in an interesting setting at a public display. 

Sorry, if I offended anyone. That was not my intention but merely sharing my observations as an outsider if you are interested in increasing public interest. That's what I thought the intent of the original post was. 

-Brian


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod 
I concur, excellent layout that would invite the general audience. A few observations and questions if I could accommodate any aspect to our portable(of course I would have too find another mode of transportation: 








What are the radius on the track? We have quite a few large steam loco with large radii requirements and need for about 25 cars on the track per engine. 
What type of storage and transportation is used (most of our portable layouts that are utilized max out the storage space either van or trailer with track, supplies and equipment)? 
Do you set up outdoors? 
Set up and break down time? How many club members help with these procedures? 
Special design for store of dioramas/background boards? 
What is the overall dimensions? 
How about yard/storage area? 

As you can tell the logistics of our setups default to a simple design for the practical side of the events we attend. That does not exclude some "icing" around the top of the layouts. One such layout is the Warrior run track but limited in radii and more to the design of narrow gauge. We running side by side at ECLSTS and both draw a share of attention.


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod, 
Without a doubt, one very impressive layout! I, too, have a bunch of questions for you/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 
First thing Jackie said when she watched was how do you service the engine if they stop mid-track. Myself, it must be a real bitch keeping all that scenery clean. I know how dirty things get on my track. Do you run alcohol fired engines on that layout? How long does it take to set your display up? 
Your track and mine serve different purposes. Obviously you get to set up indoors much more than I do! I guess the fire marshalls in your country are less paranoid. My track is twice the size of yours 30 x 40 foot and I usually average 30 or more live steamers that run on my track. I think that your style would be in constant repair. At the NGRC there were a few days the wind blew very strong and I imagine that would destroy a layout like that.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob 
Real steam must of done a real good job, highlighting the main page photos. 
http://azbigtrains.org/2008 NGRC PICS.htm


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the nice comments guys, here are the details you requested. 
It is basically a narrow gauge layout and I do not allow alcohol fired firing due to the obvious hazards. I set up in a space 30ft x 20ft, normalay with the back of the layout, the steaming up bays, towards a wall or away from the public. 
It is dual gauge track 45mm & 32mm radius is 5ft. The largest engines that can run are the Accucraft C21 and Garratt. I do sometimes run my Marklin Pacific. I keep my little 1/32 Asters for in the garden. 
Set up time is aprox 12 person hours, packing up a bit quicker at 8 person hours. The layout boards were designed to fit into a small trailer that is towed behind my station wagon. The steel frame legs fold into the under frame of the base boards. The scenic back boards pack into purpose made bags and fit into the trailer. Buildings get boxed and are transported in a friends and my station wagons. 
The two track circuits, 32mm is the inside loop with a steaming bay /setup siding on the inside at the rear of the layout, with the 45mm track having its steaming bay along the outside at the back. 
I only set this up indoors, many of our shows/ exhibitions are spread across the whole weekend so we need dry, safe and secure overnight location for everything. 
Operating, normally a minimum of 6 or max of 8 operators who bring their 2 or 3 of own trains. I have a core of reliable friends who come to help/operate and I know in advance who is coming so I can write the running roster beforehand. Folks pay a lot of money to come to these exhibitions so we like to put on an interesting and professional show. I insist that trains are ready on time for their alloted slot. When failures occur we can normally slot another engine in or on occasion we will put in a standby battery electric. With 3 operators per track, we always have one running, one preparing for his run and one servicing after his run, per track . Hence 6 is minimum. Eight gives us more time off between runs but any more restricts the number of runs one gets per day, and it gets too crowded. We talk to the public during operations or as required. 
As for cleaning, we wipe the oil off the rails during the day, and the scenery gets dusted as required at set up (. not frequently needed). 
We don't tend to run long trains as it looks silly tail chasing around the track, 6 or 8 eight wheel freight cars is the norm, but there is no set standard. 
Access to the trains is not a problem, as we can walk around the the inside or outside of the layout. 
This is built and run as an exhibition layout with different criteria and requirements to your steam up / test / demo tracks.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

I believe that the root of the public awareness issue, with regard to the easy visibility of gauge 1 live steam operation, is that our steaming tracks are always (with very few exceptions) shunted off to some form of "steam gulag", ala the Jerry Reshew experience on that parking lot roof top in Virgina that led to the INDOOR experience we all know as "Diamondhead". We, all of us, need to work to change that! This change is the key to the visibility issue! 

Helicon Steamer spoke to the issue of operating live steam equipment indoors like there was an inherent problem with that approach from the safety and insurance coverge aspects associated with the physical venue (hotel, museum, exibition hall, etc.) I know nothing of Halicon Steamer's model railroading history, but I have heard this line of "reasoning" in the past, and it has always eminated from someone solidly in the sparkie community, and never from anyone in the live steam crowd. Having said that, I have observed most Gauge 1 live steamers going along with that point of view, like sheepeople, when ever it was raised. Early on (1995-1998) in my steamy past I also accepted this "truth". My epiphany arrived in the form of Richard Finlayson (Double Reefed) when he related to me the tales of how he arranged the first Spring Steamup, in a hotel ballroom, in the East Bay late in the last years of the past century. Going in he too was worried about insurance exposures and bogie man aspect of the Fire Marshal, but what he found out was that hotels and convention centers routinely make their facilities available to "cooking shows" and restaurant equipment sales conventions where HUNDREDS of GALLONS of propane are burned in the ballrooms and exhibition spaces for days at a time! And how about the other hundreds of gallons of way hot (300F+) cooking oils residing on top of the propane cookers burner tops? That's one of the reasons all these public gathering places are "sprinklered" with ceiling spray heads, and the floors are carpeted with fire retardent (wool, in many cases), "busily patterned", wall-to-wall carpets. The carpets busy patterns tend to hide the spills and stains that result from "stuff" that drops from the tables during the shows and banquet dinners. These patterns also do a swell job of disguising spilt steam oil and gunky condensate. 

As a result of this new look at the easy feasibility of operating live steam Gauge 1 indoors at commercial venues, all the steamups held here in the greater Sacramento area have been indoor events (Cantabury Inn, Lions Gate Hotel), and even the annual Thanksgiving weekend model train exposition held at the California State Railroad Museum in Old Town. The two exceptions that come to mind are the long past National Garden Railroad Convention held a couple of years back at the Double Tree Inn (a typical sparkie orchestrated event), and the annual Model Train Show held indoors, with the exception of Paul Brink's live steam track of course, at the Roseville (CA) fair grounds just prior to Thanksgiving. This show is sponsered by a varity of sparkie scale clubs, and the go-to-guy for the event is the president of the local HO club; another sparkie in charge (SIC)! In both of these exceptional cases the live-steam-outside rule was invented and encouraged by the sparkie organizers, and not by the facilities owners/management. 

Clark Lord, a live steamer associated with the Las Vegas Garden Railroad Club, has repeatedly, and for many years, run his Gauge 1 live steamers on the club's dedicated portable track in indoor situations. The protocol is that when his track time arrives, the Track Marshal gives him the right of way across all the points to the outside loop, and then he runs till his time is up. Every time he runs he draws a crowd because they want to experience the thrill of seeing a live steam PR K-4s run its heart out up close and personal. If he was running instead on the top floor of a Las Vegas parking garage in full sun and 115F, he'd be the only one there. 

So, my suggestion is that if we want better visibility, then, as a group of individuals, we all need to no longer be so willing to accept hind teat when it comes to being located (especially by SICs!), outside and alone, at an indoor event. 

I encourage Bob Star to start the ball rolling with the next event that he will support over at the convention center in Ontario (CA) in the near future. The primary reason that I did not attend the Ontario event last year (and this year too) is that I have no intention of frying my brain pan, hat or no hat, while trying to have fun in the middle of a parking lot desert in the middle of the Southern California low wasteland, while all the sparkie check-book modelers eye-ball all the newest in orphan scale plastic toys in air conditioned comfort. 

Kevin O'Connor


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a quick note here because I am late to get to work. Kevin, we are *[red]NOT[/red]* out in the parking lot in the hot sun at the BTS. It is a rather large quansote hut tent where we are located with open sides. I found it rather comfortable last year.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Post deleted.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The BTS tent is also right next to the entry, its not hard at all to find. You can clearly see it as you come into the show. I love live steam, I doubt I'll ever be able to afford what I want (RH Darg Class B) but I still like to watch them, I've considered the BAGRs project engine, but until the outdoor layout is built, I think I'll hold that thought. I agree that you do things because you like them, and not for any other reason, otherwise why knock yourself around? 

Example about judging interest: I just finished major work on the portable pizza layout I plan to take to the BTS for the MLS booth. Now based on the replies the building log has gotten, I could judge that theres almost no interest whatsoever for it, but if I look at the number of hits, its apparently very popular! Either way its a project I have wanted to do for a long time that had many goals: to gain experience with blue foam construction, hand laying track, and scenic technics, it also could be a demonstrator for small area G scale modeling, or simply a pocket sized advertisement for large scale (and as part of the booth, hopefully a nice draw for MLS). Now if for nothing else, I could always stick it in my backroom or studio and just enjoy it as a setpiece, but either way, its all falls back to ME and what I like to do, if others enjoy it also, then thats great. 

So as with live steam, those that are truely interested will always intentionally seek it out at a show, as the curious will also always the find their way to the steamies, I wouldnt worry about them, now as for the casual attendant, Hmmm... maybe a sign at the doors saying "See Real Steam Engines" with a finger pointing to the live steam area wouldnt be a bad idea 

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## 212 degrees (Jan 13, 2008)

The live steam hobby in the U.S. tends to focus on the locomotive, ideally pulling a long train around an elevated loop, while the electric modelers usually have a strong interest in scenery. The live steamers in the U.S. are following the lead of the Gauge 1 folks in the U.K. who are strongly influenced by machinists. What is missing is the influence of the U.K. 16mm live steamers who are there quite separate from the Gauge 1 crowd and much more oriented toward scenery. There even the portable 16mm layouts feature detailed scenes, although the main emphasis is on ground-level operation outdoors with living plants, etc. I think that a portable layout with scenery might go a long ways to attracting more attention from the general public and other rail modelers who are not machinists. Also, there is the unfortunate tendency of U.S. live-steamers to be attracted to ever larger and more expensive locomotives. In 16mm the emphasis is on small locomotives hauling short, slow trains, which is more compatible with small scale layouts and also more affordable for a beginner. If people don't like your product that could be a sign that the product needs to be redesigned. My father sold automobiles and he realized that he had to sell the wife on the color and upholstery as well as selling the husband on the engine. We must attract children and wives as well as advanced machinists.


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## Guest (May 8, 2008)

I'm one of those who would love a live steamer! and like most I will prob get me a Ruby 'one day'...I have about 4 locos that need battery conversion, but have really been considering forgoing a couple of those for a LS engine. 

this past SELSTS was our first ever train show...remember I didn't come out of any other scale..I started here....and I was intrigued with the LS Track....although I had 3 kids and wife in tow...I couldn't spend too much time foolin' around with it. Now while I was off "Shopping" the wife and kids were sitting close by the track, when one of the operators invited my boys (who can destroy anything) over to look at the engines ....I came up half-way thru the introduction...when the guy hands my 3yr old the engine...I nearly fainted (pictured in my mind Luke dropping the thing on the concrete floor)...I helped Luke and Eli hold it and was myself surprised at the sheer weight of the cab-less lokie.....anyways...I said all of that to say the gents in Perry were really friendly and outgoing. I witnessed many men and women engaging in conversation with the operators...and more children touching and handling the cold engines.....and while there AC did demo some of their Live Steamers....Now to convince myself to forgo any RC for a while and buy me a steamer; what to buy?--a whole nuther topic! 

cale


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

First, to “all terrain” in Silver Spring... The last time I attended a WVMGRS meeting at Scott and Judy Loomer's, I invited the members of the WVMGRS to attend my next steamup. Although great interest was expressed, the number of members who were not steamers in attendance was exactly ONE. For the record, I was the Chairman of the 1992 NGRC in Reston, VA hosted by the WVMGRS. The reason the layout was on the top deck of the Hyatt parking garage was because the Reston Town Center Business Alliance required 24 hour security on the layout and a TWO MILLION dollar liability policy funded by the convention, if we had the layout in ANY space accessible to the general public. $2M was a lot of insurance in 1992 and was considered an unreasonable financial burden with no reasonable demonstrated benefit. 

I guess I am in the minority in thinking that we have an obligation to try to expand the number of live steamers. I believe that (as was stated in some previous posts) it has appeal for tinkerers and builders. It is kind of like high performance sports cars; you either want to tune it yourself, or you have the money to pay a skilled mechanic. We are not elitists, we are just in a niche in the hobby that is NOT for everyone. I would NEVER try to convert an individual who has a short attention span, is uninterested in detail, and lacks patience. In general, these people are a hazard around machinery. My events are by “invitation only” because of Loudoun County ordinances that prohibit hosting public gatherings of more than 50 people at a personal residence without a county PERMIT ($$$$), personal liability, and a desire to know who is at my home. I have only turned away ONE person in the 14 years we have hosted these meets. I will say that people have to be invited, and some who have been told by others to contact me have just complained later that they were not invited. 

I recently attended a “battery and live steam” meet in which some steamers (and others) disregarded the host’s “house rules” for operation. He has nice structures and lots of professionally painted and weathered rolling stock and structures. He wanted to protect some of this from the ravages of steam oil and asked the steamers to follow certain procedures. These were largely ignored and he now is spending a lot of time trying to clean steam oil off of his highly detailed models. The point of the previous comment is to show that scenic and detailed model railroading does not always mix well with operational live steam. 

My track has been labeled a “glorified locomotive test track” by some, and not without reason. But it was built for running live steam locomotives hauling trains with the emphasis on locomotive driver convenience and safety. It was never intended as a “scenic line” with a collection of obstructions that would be destroyed on a moment’s notice if someone was trying to keep their engine under control. 

In UK public venues operated by G1MRA, the public is actively discouraged from engaging a loco driver while he is running a train. Other individuals are tasked to be outside the layout to answer questions about all the various activities that are taking place. I know from experience that some steamers would just as soon ignore the public, so the task of public interaction often falls on the same small group of people at each show. Even they tire of being the “public face” after a while. 

My suggestion relative to live steam and the public: Set up where the organizers allow, enjoy yourselves running locos and trains, explain what is happening, DON’T bother to try to SELL anything. Those that are truly interested will gravitate to this aspect of the hobby, let the others enjoy their electron powered railroads. 

Dr Rivet


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run my live steamers at Marty's for several years. Being an operator of one(or taking pix of mine while a buddy runs it) I did not talk to a lot of people. But there really seem to be much interest in live steam from the battery guys that were there. So, it seems to me, that even among the G scale people that are firmly committed to trains, the steam guys are in a minority. So imagine what a minority we are to the general public. I could be wrong on this, as usual!  I have electrics also, sometimes I don't want to invest the time/energy in the live steam. Jerry


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05/08/2008 9:01 PM
ALL 
First, to “all terrain” in Silver Spring... The last time I attended a WVMGRS meeting at Scott and Judy Loomer's, I invited the members of the WVMGRS to attend my next steamup. Although great interest was expressed, the number of members who were not steamers in attendance was exactly ONE. For the record, I was the Chairman of the 1992 NGRC in Reston, VA hosted by the WVMGRS. The reason the layout was on the top deck of the Hyatt parking garage was because the Reston Town Center Business Alliance required 24 hour security on the layout and a TWO MILLION dollar liability policy funded by the convention, if we had the layout in ANY space accessible to the general public. $2M was a lot of insurance in 1992 and was considered an unreasonable financial burden with no reasonable demonstrated benefit. 
Dr Rivet 





Jim / Dr.Rivet, 

Sorry to hear you are no longer active in the club. We could use a few more "movers and shakers". Its good to know who ran the "successful" NGRC. Club members often express interest "in spirit" so don't feel slighted by the lack of response. My main mission in the club is getting more garden railways built by the members. I was a bit shocked when I joined the club by the number of members that have no layout. I/We have instituted monthly workshops (outside of meetings) for more hands on learning. If you would be interested in hosting one of these please let me know. Recently dealing with the folks at Union Station for National Train Day, I know how ridiculous they can get with the insurance requirements. By the way its "alt terrain", a shortened version of my biz name but "Brian" will do. 

-Brian


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Insurance requirements in different states are horrendous. Locally we had one long standing train show go under because they promised security that was not there and they had some major robberies. The vendors refused to go back. But even more important they could no longer get insurance. Some areas it works some it doesn't. 

Chas


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

I made some observations today when our local club, the Big Lick Big Train Operators, (all sparkies but me), had a display at the O. Winston Link Museum's annual railfan day. 

It was held at the old Norfolk and Western passenger station in Roanoke, the city hosting the headquarters for the N&W Railway. Plenty of real trains rolled by during the 4 hour display that included a 7-1/2 ride on live steamer, lots of railroad related displays and our club display. I counted visitors to my table where I had 4 steam locomotives on display and ran my K-27 on rollers, blowing the whistle whenever someone stopped. 

My total count for the 4-hour period was 161, including 44 children. One 7/8ths scale steamer stopped by as well as six 7-1/2 inch guys. One person talked for about 10 minutes about converting from electric to live steam and went away convinced he should build a Roundhouse Billy kit (we'll see). 

Either 8 (or 9, I can't remember) were garden railroaders who had heard of live steam but had never seen it up close. They were interested, but most said price scared them away even though one had just shelled out $700 for a Bachmann K-27. A few said it was "too much tinkering" to have fun. 

The rest of the visitors were just interested in the steamers in general and many asked good questions except for one after noting water under the rollers and asked, "Won't the water short it out?" We all had a laugh over that one. 

All in all, it was a good day with lots of interest. I think the probability of acutally having one of the visitors enter the live steam world is one out of the 161 - although I am sure at least a couple of the older children now have a registration mark for adulthood. 

I WORE MY NEW SA SHIRT AND TWO VISITORS NOTICED THE MLS LOGO - THANKS DWIGHT.


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## 212 degrees (Jan 13, 2008)

In the previous posts I detect an ambivalence or perhaps hopelessness regarding promotion of live steam. Yet many are steaming at public events so they must see something to be gained. The fact is that most marketing efforts have response rates in the low single digit percentages and live steaming has grown tremendously in the last twenty years. We have all benefitted with new suppliers, new friends and this web site. What we want to avoid is the attitude Henry Ford has about his black model T which almost sank his company: "We just build them the way we always have and if you no longer want that then go elsewhere." Let's be openminded about our ways. If you are too old to play on the ground, don't criticize the young boys who aren't - they are the future of the hobby. Invite you wife to put a dollhouse and flowers along the line and your marriage will improve. Read the other forums/fora here and take an interest in figuremaking, buildings, gardening, etc. You'll make new friends and you might even have some fun yourself.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

212 degrees 

One of the main reasons that steamers gravitate to the public venues (at least in this area) is that many have room for locomotives; they don't have space for a track. In addition, several of my live steam friends have pointed out that building and maintaining a track simply decreases the funds for acquisition of new locomotives and reduces the time for building / maintaining (tinkering) with their engines. Besides, Diamondhead, Cabin Fever, President's Weekend at the Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA, and the East Coast LSTS all provide indoor venues during a period when outside running is "less enjoyable" in this part of the country. The loco drivers are not there to convince one more person to join them; they are there to run THEIR stuff and have a good time. The building could be completely empty except for the steaming track and they would not care one wit. 

I have an elevated track; if someone else wants to be like Jack Verducci and run on the ground complete with train orders and time tables, that is ok by me. The Ga 1 track at PA Live Steamers is mostly at ground level, as are lots of garden lines in the UK. We are actually VERY tolerant of other's personal choices, as long as they DON'T tell us how we need to enjoy OUR hobby. 

It is NOT an ambivalence or perhaps hopelessness, it is a desire to keep people who live for "instant gratification" and represent in my mind a risk to the live steam hobby AWAY. They are the ones who will KILL the live steam hobby after the second lawsuit because they expected everything to work "out of the box" like an LGB or Aristo or USA Trains electric locomotive. they are the ones who will not appreciate the level of personal responsibility that comes with "playing with fire". I know this sounds ELITIST, but it is a fact of life. Small mistakes with electric trains lead to minor mishaps like cars on the ground; small mistakes with live steam can lead to big fires consuming wooden rolling stock, melt or burn lots of track, or dump a $20K C&O 2-6-6-6 on its side and nearly off the layout. The scariest "screw up" at one of my meets was when someone opened the blower on their engine while the draft fan was still on the stack. The water came up into the fan and shattered the impeller. Pieces of shrapnel everywhere. Bad fan design (cast fan impeller) coupled with bad judgement on the part of the loco driver. In general, the highest risk to an individual is getting burned because they put personal body parts, typically face or hands, in places they did not belong without proper protection. But in this day and age, many people would blame the track owner or the loccmotive manufacturer for not preventing them from a failure to exercise common sense or good judgement. I don't really want people in this segment of the hobby because they think "it might be cool"; I want people here because they have an interest in steam propulsion and a desire to run models that are powered in a manner SIMILAR to their 1:1 counterparts. 

Unfortunately, in the last couple of years, as the hobby has expanded, so have the number of runners who regularly fail to exercise common courtesy towards other runners, show disregard for the value of other's equipment, and generally act as if the world is revoving around them and everone else needs to accede to their personal whims. The most glaring examples are total disregard to observing scheduled track time slots when at event where the available track time is eceeded by the number of people wanting to run. The two best excuses lateley are, I'm not out of water yet, or I've still got a lot of fire in this coal burner. SORRY, time's up; let the next guy on the track!!! 


End RANT 

Dr Rivet


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I WORE MY NEW SA SHIRT AND TWO VISITORS NOTICED THE MLS LOGO - THANKS DWIGHT. 
Cool Carl.  Never hurts to make people aware of this site.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

What Dr Rivet says is correct, of course, and represents the line of thinking of many of the traditionalists in the live steam community. And let's face it, without them, live steam and the comraderie around it would not be what it is. 

However, at the very start of this thread, Dwight observed on the very low attendance at the steam track at a recent large show. A number of people have put forward ideas on how this might be improved on and some, Dr Rivet perhaps most vociferously, have stated that they really don't care about or even want the general (large scale modeling) public. Some may think that the setups at public shows are for the public to view but to at least a core group of live steamers, it is a way to have a private steamup in a public venue. 

I am one of the new breed of live steamers. I enjoy steam propulsion and am fascinated with the machinery - and enjoyed the numerous steamups that I have attended in the northeast. But I also enjoy many other aspects of the large scale hobby including gardening and especially prototypical operation. Although traditional live steamers usually do not care a wit about anything beyond their locomotive, many newcomers have entered the live steam fraternity as I have - with a more holistic view of what live steam can do and its place in the scheme of things. 

We have been aided and abetted by Aristo's almost rtr Mike but especially by Accucraft, who has made relatively low cost highly detailed but easy to operate locos. In short we can enjoy live steam without being either wealthy or machinists first. 

This growth in the live steam segment has not always been easy for either the traditionalists or the newcomers. i have felt the "scorn" (thats a bit too strong a word) of the traditionalists when I have been unable to reset the timing properly on my 3 cyl shay and have been looked at as if I am crazy when I express a desire for a somewhat more scenic backdrop than bare 2x4 raised decking. I also like to run my shays in formal operations a la Jack verducci (though like Dr Rivet I prefer an elevated track) but the electric loco runners at times are less than enthusiastic about locos that need water stops and time to build steam or who sometimes leave some oily waste on the track. 

In any case, the original question seemed to revolve around better attendance at steam tracks at shows. As a nontraditional live steamer, I think that the steam tracks at shows serve the same purpose as the electric layouts do. They are there to entice newcomers by demonstrating the capability of the equipment. That is how I came to see live steam and become involoved in this aspect of the hobby. 

Even in the 6 years I have been involved in live steam, I have seen it change - it has become less elite and more mainstream, much more closely related to garden railroading. That has annoyed some traditionalists but from my perspective, it is a welcome evolution. 

The steam tracks at large shows simply need to reflect that change - that would draw larger attendance, more newcomers to the fold though it may perhaps further annoy the traditional crowd of live steamers. 

Regards ... Doug


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

'...few said it was "too much tinkering" to have fun....' 

For most of us who 'play' with steam, the tinkering IS the fun. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems to me that we participate in public forums with our portables for both the pleasure of being with fellow steamers and to exhibit "real" steam for the education of general public. If one has ever been with Aikenback LIve steamers at a public event one will see an engagement of both these purposes. Again, a good side by side comparison of a well "decorated" layout by Clem and Mike's traditional layout during a meet results in the same level of public interaction. The focus is on the "real" steam engine, rolling stock etc as most viewers have already seen the accessories of railroading through the "sparkie" visits. The public is attracted to the operations of a "real" steam locomotive. That does not preclude having yard switching, trains running on a single track using sidings and "fun" popular attractions (such as Thomas, etc).


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 05/11/2008 6:18 AM 
Even in the 6 years I have been involved in live steam, I have seen it change - it has become less elite and more mainstream, much more closely related to garden railroading. That has annoyed some traditionalists but from my perspective, it is a welcome evolution. 
The steam tracks at large shows simply need to reflect that change - that would draw larger attendance, more newcomers to the fold though it may perhaps further annoy the traditional crowd of live steamers. 
Regards ... Doug 


Doug, 
Even though I don't agree with your views that steam tracks "need to reflect that change", (I assume you mean visual enhancements such as scenery and buildings), I don't think your views are necessarily wrong. If you feel that changes are what's in order, then like many others out there, build your own portable track and set it up exactly the way you want it to be. If it is safe to run on, with relatively easy access to the engines, steamers will show up and run. 
Personally I would not like to take the chance of not being able to get to one of my engines because buildings or other scenery blocking my access. I have too much time and money invested to take unnecessary chances of any kind while my engines are under steam. Accidents happen, but I want to keep the chances down as much as I can.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems to me that we participate in public forums with our portables for both the pleasure of being with fellow steamers and to exhibit "real" steam for the education of general public.
Lots of good responses here. I'm in the "Charles Camp" on this one. I do the public shows for a lot of reasons - the first obviously because it gives me pleasure and I have a lot of fun at them. A large part of that fun is the fellowship of other live steamers - it's always more fun to run with others than to run alone. I also enjoy the company of other non-live steamers who I know and who show up at the steam track from time to time. The BTS is a good example of this. As the (usually) only time of the year I can gather with fellow west coast MLSers and socialize, it's one of the high points of my social year.  

Myself, I also find interacting with the general public rewarding. Spreading the joys of live steam to the uninitiated is not only fun for me, but I consider it essential to the hobby. If Accucraft (as Doug mentioned), hadn't made live steam affordable to myself and the rest of the great unwashed, there would be far less people involved in live steam and far less products to choose from. We wouldn't be running two and three cylinder Shays, C-16s, C-19s, C-21s, K-27s, K-28s, and Rubys. Aristo probably wouldn't have come out with their Mike, and future offerings from them would probably be zip. We wouldn't be looking forward to 4-4-0s and Mason Bogies and SP Ten-Wheelers and other future Accucraft offerings. And I probably never would have taken up machining. We very probably wouldn't have 1:20.3 AMS rolling stock to pull either. 

So ultimately, I suppose my motivations are selfish. Without enticing more people into live steam, there will be less in the way of future offerings for me to choose from. Besides, like I said, I have fun doing public shows, and when we set up at Roaring Camp every year, even the guys running and firing the 1:1s will hang out and admire our miniatures. 

The point I was trying to make in my original post is that, in order to be successful at public shows, we need to be right in the thick of things and not off to the side someplace. At least that's been my experience so far.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

Since I "threw the rock in the water", I would like to respond to the comments. BTW "Dougald", "vociferously" is an interesting choice of words. You are not the first to use it to describe my behavior; it was used by the rating Officer on one of my Senior Enlisted Evaluation Reports back when I was an E7 in the 1970s. 

"Chooch" points out my most basic concern with running steam ion a layout with backdrops or lots of structures, control of the engine and safety. In these situations, I feel much more comfortable when R/C is in use. I agree with Doug that if you are running a geared loco, those issues are minimized because high speed is not usually a factor and the driver can usually get to the loco before much of anything happens. 

G1MRA actually owns two or three portable tracks that are very detailed and are fully sceniced. They are a wonder to behold in operation. It also takes a small army to transport, unload, set up, and maintain. They figure their primary display layout costs about $2,000 per year to maintain, not including storage costs. It takes about 75 man-hours to assemble. Given many of our events are one or two days with a total operating time of 12 hours, this is a pretty hard ratio to swallow. Mike Moore and Charles usually have about four hours to get a track set up so they have adopted the "minimalist" approach. I don't know how long it takes for the guys to set up Clem's Warrior Run sectional layout with all the buildings and stuff. I have 12 feet of O scale modules that are fully sceniced and it takes me about 2 hours to set them up and install all the scenic elements. If the scenery was integrated with the base I would need a trailer just to haul them around. I agree with "Chooch" though, Doug should build a portable track with all the cool stuff on it, let us know where it will be set up, and some us will be willing to take it for a test drive. 

Dwight, I reread everything from the beginning. You are absolutely correct. If we want the general interest attendee at an event to see our stuff, it needs to be in the area of primary traffic flow. Otherwise, most will not seek us out. AT ECLSTS, Mike's track is there with all the "G" sparkie tracks, so we get lots of visitors as they go from layout to layout. As Charles says, we get to talk to lots of folks when set up like that. Sorry I dragged your post in a different direction. 

Dr Rivet


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry I dragged your post in a different direction.
Certainly no apology is necessary Jim. It's been an interesting and civil discussion that has engaged many who seldom post. I'm happy it generated some interest.  

If we want the general interest attendee at an event to see our stuff, it needs to be in the area of primary traffic flow. Otherwise, most will not seek us out.
My point exactly, and it confirms my own experience. Perhaps Bob can talk to Brian and get us onto the main BTS floor this year. It's a huge venue with a concrete floor, so any fire hazards are minimal, and as was pointed out previously, I'm sure they host cooking shows, etc.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

But doesn't EVERYBODY want (and maybe deserve) to be in an Area of Primary Traffic Flow? Just how big is the Area of Primary Traffic Flow


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## Bob Starr (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps Bob can talk to Brian and get us onto the main BTS floor this year. It's a huge venue with a concrete floor, so any fire hazards are minimal, and as was pointed out previously, I'm sure they host cooking shows, etc.

I went thru that with him last year and it was the local fire marshals that would have nothing to do with it.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/05/2008 9:06 PM
We had very few people dropping by Bob Starr's track at last weekend's NGRC relative to the number of people actually attending the Con. We were on a second story balcony with a couple of signs point to us. 
We had a similar experience at last year's BTS when we were off to the side under a huge canopy. Compared to previous years at the Queen, where we were out in the parking lot and people had to walk past us to enter the show, attendance was WAY off! 
Based upon these experiences, I've come to the conclusion that unless the live steam is "in their face," many (most?) won't go out of their way to see it. Their attitude is that they really aren't interested in live steam, and if they see it, fine, and if they don't, also fine. However, when, like it was at the Queen, they have to pass by it to get where they are going, THEN it has a chance to capture their attention as they see it, and THEN they realize just how cool it really is! 
Anyone had similar experiences at shows they attend? 





I think the location of the live steam track at this year's NGRC had a LOT to do with the lower public attendance. For starters, the printed sign marking it's location was never seen by me to be UP in the walkway. When I first saw it, it was in the bushes on the side of the walkway...and was visible only if you were walking AWAY from the convention area. After seeing it once before the convention reception on Wednesday, I never saw it again, and a piece of cardboard was put up that had a had drawn arrow pointing to the live steam area. 

Second, the main way INTO the convention was through the parking lot into the side of the building...or through the corridors to the back of the hotel where the seller venue was located in three tents. If you did NOT walk to the front of the hotel where the lobby was, you'd never see the steam up signs...and for sure, you'd NEVER see the steaming area...or hear it. I heard that the manufacturers (who were up there as well) felt that their stuff "was off the beaten path" too. 

Third, while there was a way to go into the lobby area and take an elevator up to the second floor, it was NOT obvious. I believe most folks saw those three sets of stairs UP to the steaming area...and decided that was too much of a climb...especially given that the average age at this convention was over 60...and that the stairs were narrow and steep. With my bad knees, I know I thought about whether I wanted to climb those stairs again. 

The BTS venue for steam is better. One, it's on the walkway from the hotel to the convention center. Second, it's next to the parking lot, so many folks see it as they walk from the parking lot to the convention center front door. IMHO, it would be MUCH better if it were inside the convention center as folks aren't just walking by then...they're in gawk mode. Then again, fire marshalls and insurance issues could make this flat impossible. 

One more thought...sound helps. When you're looking at the electric layouts, you're always immersed in sound...growling diesels, bells, horns, whistles, etc. Now, while the live steamers do chuff (softly), not too many operators use the steam whistle much...probably because most are not RC'd. I think the more sound the steamers can make...the better it would be received.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok Here is my contribution. 

I will go to my Banner Friends and ask for two banners. 12 inches high and 4 feet long. 

What should they say? 

SEE THE STEAM FREEKS THIS WAY  

THE AMERICAN BURNT FINGER SCOIETY THIS WAY  

LIVE STEAM LOCOMOTIVES 

LIVE STEAM TRAINS. 

I personally like one of the last two. 

I need this soon inorder to get it done by TBS time. 

Let me know what you think 

Hurry /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 
As for your suggested signs, it has been my observation that "live" steam doesn't mean much to non steamers. People often ask, "what do you mean, is it 'real' steam that actually makes it go? How does that work?" So, if you want to attact non steamers, better come up with something more generic. Even then, there are a lot of people who don't even get the concept of steam. One man in his 40s just yesterday asked me when he saw water under my K-27, "Won't the water short it out?" Many of us have heard similar remarks from adults.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Sign concepts- 
Real steam locomotives: Stop, Look and Listen 
Real locomotives: Got Steam! 
Real steam locomotives: Gauge One 
Real steam locomotives: hear the whistle, see the chuff plume, feel the rumble, etc


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with live steam IS that folks under 65 years old probably have no idea what a steam engine is! By the early fifties, dis-easals were already taking over the railroads. I'm 64 and still remember cab-forwards hauling freight through downtown Glendale-Burbank. But that was 1950-52. The general public needs to be educated about these relics of a bygone era. Our live steam club here in Los Angeles-LOS ANGELES LIVE STEAMERS-has fewer and fewer members building or running live steamers. The new members want to go out and plunk down 10K to 15K dollars for a gas engine "diesel", so all they have to do is turn the key and go! Thankfully my 24 year old son has an interest in steam and I'm passing this on to him. It's a sign of the times./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 05/11/2008 12:48 PM
Ok Here is my contribution." border=0> 
I will go to my Banner Friends and ask for two banners. 12 inches high and 4 feet long. 
What should they say? 
SEE THE STEAM FREEKS THIS WAY " border=0> 
THE AMERICAN BURNT FINGER SCOIETY THIS WAY " border=0> 
LIVE STEAM LOCOMOTIVES" border=0> 
LIVE STEAM TRAINS." border=0> 
I personally like one of the last two. 
I need this soon inorder to get it done by TBS time. 
Let me know what you think 
Hurry /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>




I vote for "STEAM FREEKS" /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I went thru that with him last year and it was the local fire marshals that would have nothing to do with it.
Oh well... at least we can smoke out there.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

We could always do a "Steamaholics" banner.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

When I was a young kid --- 

I lived in Sandusky, Ohio and spent may hours watching the coal cars being dumped into the lake freighters. 

To keep us from hopping the trains, the crews would have us ride in the caboose with them. Maybe it was the lawyers found out about this and had the caboose removed from the trains. 

I also have memories of the Hudsons pulling the twentieth century limited on the high speed track around Sandusky.


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## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

Having just returned from a weekend of steaming on the Southdown Railway Company show layout at the Portsmouth Dockyard Steam weekend I can report substantial interest from all age groups in our steam trains. At times the crowd was 5 or 6 deep with arms held high trying to take photographs. We have gone for a very scenic layout to provide plenty of entertainment for everyone whilst the steam enthusiasts (present and future) can look at the locomotives and discuss their running with us. We generally operate our trains from outside the layout so as to be amongst the public to answer questions, and there were plenty of those over the weekend. The presence of scenery does not present any significant dangers for either radio or manually controlled locomotives as all are gas fired. The layout owner does not permit alchohol fired locomotives. 

Whilst our presence was announced in the show programme, there were no special signs pointing to the location of the layout in one of the dockyard boat sheds, but large numbers of visitors found there way to us, and some came back to us several times during each day. 

As Dr Rivet points out, there are dangers from people who do not exercise basic care and we have to be vigillant all of the time to avoid accidents. On one occasion during last weekend a visitor of adult stature (I reserve judgement on intellect and common sense) ignored all the "Danger Hot" signs and leaned across both running tracks with chin almost touching the tracks to look at one of the buildings, completely ignoring steam trains approaching from both directions. Fortunatly my locomotive is fitted with a steam whistle and a long blast removed the track obstruction, but it returned immediately after my train passed. A second whistle blast hammered the point home and brought a black look from the obstruction. 

Here are a couple of pictures taken during a quiter moment showing another of my locomotives, a converted Accucraft Ruby complete with new brass trucks under the tender. 

















David


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

I am in the hobby to run trains and enjoy the fellowship of other live steamers. 
Most live steamers have come to the hobby by attraction, not promotion. 

I am most happy with a core group in seattle and online. There is enough info on line and in Garden Railways to attract those who are interested. 
The Portland meet does have an open session on friday night. 

We post all our steamups on our Puget Sound Garden Railway website. We have people who come, get excited and stay.


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