# Gauging Interest in Live Steam C&O L-1



## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

My favorite railroad is the C&O and they always had interesting steam engines. One of the ones I really like is the L-1 streamlined Hudson. 

I have been working with the Wuhu factory for the last few months on a couple of projects and one of them is a live steam L-1. Now that I have some idea of the basic specs and the pricing I wanted to see how much interest was out there for a model of this locomotive.

The model would be butane fired, all metal. It would also have some sort of axle pump or other method of easily refilling the boiler. There might be some form of remote control for it but I am still looking into that. 

The price estimate for the finished product would be between $3,500 and $4,000, but probably closer to the $3,500. If it turns out there are a lot of orders the pricing would come down some.


Please let me know what you think and if you might have an interest in buying or getting more information please send me a PM with your contact details.

Thank you.

-Adam


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam, 

Since the original locomotive had poppet valve gear, what are you proposing to use for the model? Be sure to have the streamline shell modular for easy maintenance and access to the internals. 

I was never a fan of the yellowbelly streamlining style, but it is something different and unique. Best of luck.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam, 

1/32nd scale, we presume? 

P.S. For those who aren't aware, the original is in the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore. It used to be out in the elements in the front yard, but is now in the North Car Shop (and much more difficult to photograph!)


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Adam, 
I wish you luck with your venture. 
The choice is not one that excites me. 
Of the 'streamline' era, there are what I think of as beautifully designed engines, and those that are 'ugly'. 
This in my eyes belongs to the latter. 
Secondly, I have no use for butane at all, so I am afraid that I will not be able to help you with a purchase. 
Thirdly, are you sure that WUHU will be able to build it exactly as you wish? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Adam, that is a great choice, what a stunning locomotive! Kind of postmodern styling, probably the most pretty of all US SG locomotives I have seen so far. Perhaps with the exception of T-1. I would be very tempted if I were not exclusively NG, Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

Sorry you think it is ugly, everyone has their own preference. As for using Butane, it might be possible to also to it in alcohol, but butane seems to be easier and a little cheaper for the manufacturer. 

Wuhu seems to do a good job, I have several of the QJs they made and they are better detailed than most of the locomotives made by more famous makers. If you have advice on other manufacturers who do custom work I would be interested in getting their contact details.

-Adam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Adam, 
Obviosly you know the Wuhu people and perhaps have visited them as you are working on these projects with them, so I may be incorrect with my knowledge here. 
I have seen the Bachmann QJ on Ebay and not sure if that is the same as the Wuhu one, or is one a copy of the other? 
Also that is electric, have Wuhu made it in steam as well? 
My experience with super detailed live steam locos in Gauge 1 is that the details get damaged and are often difficult to keep clean! 
Your choice of a streamlined loco lessens this problem. 
The live steam Wuhu British 4MT tank engine from what I read has major problems, and needs a lot of work to make it a 'good' runner. 
Comments have been made that an Ex-Accucraft employee took the alcohol plans with him to Wuhu and made a 'bad' gas copy. 
Whether this is true or not, who knows for sure. 
Perhaps Wuhu and BMMC are all the same anyway! 
Anyway, the point is that they should really not be selling something that has problems. 
Sort them out first, and then sell a 'good' runner. 
Make sure that there is quality control. 
I gather that the G1MRC people went to China to make sure that every Britannia was checked and tested before they were shipped. 
You may need to consider this option as well. 
I don't know what sort of cash you have to put into a project like this, but it will be a poor return if the loco gets bad press and doesn't sell well! 
Just take care. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i love it


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 21 Mar 2010 12:59 PM 
I gather that the G1MRC people went to China to make sure that every Britannia was checked and tested before they were shipped. 
David Leech, Delta, Canada

...and it shows. The freebie DVD showing an unsorted 'Britannia' hauling 22 heavy passenger cars and freight cars from a standing start would serve as a lesson to anybody hoping to make a few $$$ selling a big expensive locomotive in G1.

For those for whom 'Britannia' was a distant dream, maybe by building the Barratt kit or getting somebody to build it by hand, years down the line and many thousands of pounds later, this must seem like a dream come true, and although I am substantially less than interested in most British outline models, I sincerely wish them all the OP the best of luck with this brave venture.

From my POV I have rarely seen a less appealing prototype than the C&O L-1, but that doesn't matter, since I won't be buying one under any circumstances.

If I had money to spend on a similar project, having already acquired the one loco that was a dream for me - the Royal Hudson - I would be floating the boat called the SP&S E-1 #700, with the second choice of the SF Northern #3751. Last but not least would be a CP Pacific, unstreamlined.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 21 Mar 2010 10:09 AM 

Adam, that is a great choice, what a stunning locomotive! Kind of *postmortem* styling, 

probably the most pretty of all *better off **dead* US SG locomotives I have seen so far. 



_Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi __*;-))*_


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

I have not spent any money yet, so am just exploring the option of doing this. With all the negativity I might forget about it. I guess I mostly talk with people in the region who are C&O/B&O/Chessie guys so just assumed most people thought it was an interesting locomotive. 

I also get a little tired of there really only being west coast or overseas locos offered. We need some more eastern stuff.

-Adam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam
Will be following your progress in terms of the L1 and how the business arrangements work out.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chris Scott on 21 Mar 2010 04:03 PM 


Posted By zubi on 21 Mar 2010 10:09 AM 

Adam, that is a great choice, what a stunning locomotive! Kind of *postmortem* styling, 

probably the most pretty of all *better off **dead* US SG locomotives I have seen so far. 



_Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi __*;-))*_

Mr Scott, if you quote my postings, please quote them without altering them. OK? Zubi


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By csinc on 21 Mar 2010 04:45 PM 
I have not spent any money yet, so am just exploring the option of doing this. With all the negativity I might forget about it. I guess I mostly talk with people in the region who are C&O/B&O/Chessie guys so just assumed most people thought it was an interesting locomotive. 

I also get a little tired of there really only being west coast or overseas locos offered. We need some more eastern stuff.

-Adam 


Adam,
I think that the United States of America is unique in it's railway fans.
Being such a large country, and so many very 'regional' railways, each railway is very different and has it's fans.
Canada, although large basically only had the two railways and most fans like one or both.
Britain also had it's regional railway system, and even in British Railway days was still somewhat different, although there were the 'Standard' locomotives.
Europe, I know little about to make a comment.
Every year when Dan Pantages and myself drive back from Sacramento we always begin the journey with posing the question, which locomotive in Gauge 1 would be the 'right' one to offer that would be well received.
And each year we never find the 'right' answer.
Someone who loves Southern Pacific is unlikely to buy a New York Central locomotive etc.
So, I guess what I am saying is that if you feel that there is sufficient interest in your locomotive then go for it.
There will always be some people who just like steam locomotives, whatever the railroad or type. 
Don't necessarily listen to the nay sayers, who may outnumber the silent group who will buy, but follow your instincts.
If you think that this is the correct loco, then it will happen.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Terry
I would like the CP-







K-1 4-8-4 3100 /3101 Only two K-1 class 4-8-4's were built by Angus Shops. They were the only 4-8-4's on the CPR and were especially designed for the heavy Montreal-Toronto night trains.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Adam, 

The L1 wouldn't be my choice even if I could afford it. I think there are a lot of streamliners that would stir more interest. Two that come to mind are the Hiawatha 4-4-2 and the Comodore Vanderbuilt Hudson or the Dryfuss Hudson. 

I would prefer to see earlier (1890s-1920s) and smaller locos from the Eastern US in 1:32 scale. 4-4-0 2-6-0 4-6-0 4-4-2 small 2-8-2 Although maybe not as impressive as super power of a more modern era these might be more popular. If they were affordable and sort of generic they would be a service to the hobby. 

Much also depends on your motivation to import models. 

Jack


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jack, Dreyfuss (note the spelling) is nice too. The same great postmodern styling as L-1. I would have a really hard time choosing between the two. Probably I'd choose both;-), Best, Zubi


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 21 Mar 2010 02:25 PM 


Posted By David Leech on 21 Mar 2010 12:59 PM 
I gather that the G1MRC people went to China to make sure that every Britannia was checked and tested before they were shipped. 
David Leech, Delta, Canada

...and it shows. The freebie DVD showing an unsorted 'Britannia' hauling 22 heavy passenger cars and freight cars from a standing start would serve as a lesson to anybody hoping to make a few $$$ selling a big expensive locomotive in G1.

For those for whom 'Britannia' was a distant dream, maybe by building the Barratt kit or getting somebody to build it by hand, years down the line and many thousands of pounds later, this must seem like a dream come true, and although I am substantially less than interested in most British outline models, I sincerely wish them all the OP the best of luck with this brave venture.

From my POV I have rarely seen a less appealing prototype than the C&O L-1, but that doesn't matter, since I won't be buying one under any circumstances.

If I had money to spend on a similar project, having already acquired the one loco that was a dream for me - the Royal Hudson - I would be floating the boat called the SP&S E-1 #700, with the second choice of the SF Northern #3751. Last but not least would be a CP Pacific, unstreamlined.

tac
www.ovgrs.org







Tac,
I'm sorry, but I have to be a little critical here. 
The freebie dvd shows a 'prototype' even if it is called a 'first production' model.
If it had been a 'real' production model they would have been out already and not just being shipped now.
Who knows how much work was done on it to get it running perfectly. (Maybe you were there and know).
As for a 'heavy' train, well since I built the G1MRA set of six Bulleids (and I'm not sure WHY they were allowed to be used for this commercial venture anyway), I know that they are NOT heavy and very free running.
Perhaps all the other coaches were equally free running.
A real test would have been to show the same train being pulled by say an Aster Spam Can to see if it could start them as well.
If it didn't, then you know that the Britannia is strong. 
Also, the producer of the video really should have shown the whole train as it began from a standing start, as I immediately wonder if someone is pushing it from out of camera.
You have to be very careful when videoing something to make it quite clear that it is completely above board.
They say that the camera never lies.
I am sorry, but these days it lies all too easily.
As I said, I apologise for being picky and critical, but feel that I had to respond.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 21 Mar 2010 05:37 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 21 Mar 2010 04:03 PM 


Posted By zubi on 21 Mar 2010 10:09 AM 

Adam, that is a great choice, what a stunning locomotive! Kind of *postmortem* styling, 

probably the most pretty of all *better off **dead* US SG locomotives I have seen so far. 



_Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi __*;-))*_


Mr Scott, if you quote my postings, please quote them without altering them. OK? Zubi

Quote? Nay... 

_Paraphrase[/b] _(pronounced /ˈpærəfreɪz/) is restatement of a text or passages, using other words. The term "paraphrase" derives via the Latin "paraphrasis[/i]" from the Greek para phraseïn[/i], meaning "additional manner of expression". The act of paraphrasing is also called "paraphrasis."


Unlike a _meta_phrase, which represents a "formal equivalent" of the source, a para[/i]phrase represents a "dynamic equivalent" thereof. 


_*" ;-)) " *_


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Some other possible offerings could be:














































Many more worldwide....


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam, 

The L-1 is a nice engine. It would be 1:32, Gauge 1 right? I also like C&O and would welcome such an engine. What would you pull with it? The 490 would be accurate hauling Pullman green heavyweights as well as the blue, yellow, and gray/stainless lightweight cars, but neither is available in 1:32. While there may have been exceptions, the L-1s retired as passenger engines, so pulling freight would be a stretch. 

Just out of curiosity, did you consider the 614? 

Mike


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike O on 21 Mar 2010 07:59 PM 
Adam, 

Just out of curiosity, did you consider the 614? 

Mike Mike,

Now your talking my language! The J3a is a nicely sized 4-8-4 with lots of following. I can remember riding behind it on the NJT trips in the 90's, at track speed (70+mph), an experience I will never forget.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Streamline steam locomotives introduced in the mid-late 1930’s were a poor attempt to exploit the art deco movement already in decline since the 1st half of the 1930’s, fully deceased by the late 1930's. Art deco’s decline mirrored the state of the world; a return to a more practical and just the essentials [/i]world view (versus decorative facades) reflecting the stresses building worldwide. US industry was growing, beginning to modernize and mobilize as US industrial power began to support those already in the fight that would turn into WWII; industry that eventually meant the US and its alies winning WWII.
The streamline locomotive movement tried to keep the steam locomotive relevant in the face of the rapidly advancing diesel locomotives. During WWII, through the 1940’s and into the 1950’s steam locomotives continued to sustain the need for motive power though the steam locomotive’s fate had already been sealed purely as a matter of the railroad’s own economics versus diesels. Streamline locomotices were a diversion rather than main direction in which railroads were moving. It is true that diesel locomtive growth lagged the need both technologically and available volumes.
Streamline locomotives seem to me to be neither steam locomotives nor a new form of motive power beyond steam that would or could compete in a post WWII world. I find the true even traditional steam locomotive with all its pipes, industrial and purely practical construction beautiful. Shrouding that beauty in some shell or cowling dress looks like some sort of attempt at camouflage that just doesn’t work – too clever by half.
Give me the real thing; you can keep the streamliners in museums in the corner with other oddities, those that seemed like a good idea at the time to someone; may they rest in piece.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 

Perhaps it would be best to start a thread on how much you dislike streamlined locomotives? You already covered your opinion in the T1 thread, let this thread return to it's original purpose, a query to see if the L-1 is viable for a small production run.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chris Scott on 21 Mar 2010 06:59 PM 

Mr Scott, if you quote my postings, please quote them without altering them. OK? Zubi

Quote? Nay... 

_Paraphrase[/b] _(pronounced /ˈpærəfreɪz/) is restatement of a text or passages, using other words. The term "paraphrase" derives via the Latin "paraphrasis[/i]" from the Greek para phraseïn[/i], meaning "additional manner of expression". The act of paraphrasing is also called "paraphrasis."


Unlike a _meta_phrase, which represents a "formal equivalent" of the source, a para[/i]phrase represents a "dynamic equivalent" thereof. 


_*" ;-)) " *_ 



Mr Scott, Woof, woof? Regards, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 21 Mar 2010 09:11 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 21 Mar 2010 06:59 PM 

Mr Scott, if you quote my postings, please quote them without altering them. OK? Zubi

Quote? Nay... 

_Paraphrase[/b] _(pronounced /ˈpærəfreɪz/) is restatement of a text or passages, using other words. The term "paraphrase" derives via the Latin "paraphrasis[/i]" from the Greek para phraseïn[/i], meaning "additional manner of expression". The act of paraphrasing is also called "paraphrasis."


Unlike a _meta_phrase, which represents a "formal equivalent" of the source, a para[/i]phrase represents a "dynamic equivalent" thereof. 


_*" ;-)) " *_ 



Mr Scott, Woof, woof? Regards, Zubi 

No, my name is Mabel. I'm only a puppy but I'd remember if we had been properly introduced.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Chris,That Picture of Your Puppy "Mabel".Well You will have to post a picture when she grows up.Zuby I think Chris picture is going to be a hard one to Top off. 
DING= 1 for Chris 
Zuby= 0 
Ryan= 0 
You have to say"This is a Great Hobby"


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Chris, 
Im inclined to agree with you in the Nth American context..that most "Streamiling" was the result of marketing rather than engineering development of the Steam Locomtoive , but this was definitely not the case in the UK.. The LNER railway and Gresley [chief Engineer] where looking to match or surpass European efforts with faster travel between major centres and the Benchmark was the German Diesel powered 2 unit Railcars which where making high average speeds with considerable running at 100mph..the LNER set out to match this but using Steam Locos and conventional passenger r cars.. trail runs showed the way to develop the Locos for continous high speed running over long distances and the external shape of Gresleys A4s was tested in wind tunnels, the result wasa real saving of Horsepower at the higher running speeds needed on the new schedules , combined with "lifting the exhaust steam " clear of the cab and drivers vision under easy running conditions.The power saving varied of course with speed and wind conditions but at 90mph was over 250 HP..coal and effort saved! remember these where hand fired engines..the coaches also where tested for wind effects and as aresult had "skirts" between the bogies and smooth sides.the drag on the coaches in side winds was higher than that on the Loco. 

The Locos also benifited from internal streamlining of the steam circuit along Chapelons thougths ..ensuring minimal internal losses from gas friction etc.. 

where any American Locos wind tunnel tested ? I dont know and it would be interesting if someone can tell us, they certainly look to me as if "Style" was ahead of "Substance" but I like the look of some examples.


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## vmsysprog (Jul 2, 2008)

Adam, I think it was asked twice with no response from you. What scale would this engine be? 
Thanks, 
Steve


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 21 Mar 2010 05:45 PM 
Terry
I would like the CP-







K-1 4-8-4 3100 /3101 Only two K-1 class 4-8-4's were built by Angus Shops. They were the only 4-8-4's on the CPR and were especially designed for the heavy Montreal-Toronto night trains. 




Charles, many thanks for posting the pic of #3101. I'm a realist enough to know that with only the two EVER built, that interest in making a model of this fine loco would be less than impressive, and actually getting anybody to make it would be like pushing rope uphill.

It surely do look a fine piece though, eh?

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org

PS - my PFM H0 version, along with almost thirty other rare Canadian brass models, were the only things stolen in a break-in at our club-house back in 1998. My pride and joy was the ultra-rare Tenshodo 'Royal train' set of blue/silver Hudson and complete set of matching cars...
nota one of them has ever been heard of since.


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

For scale I was thinking 1:29 so that it could go with some of the passenger cars out there.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By csinc on 22 Mar 2010 05:44 AM 
For scale I was thinking 1:29 so that it could go with some of the passenger cars out there. Seems to me that you still have a way to go in your market research, Sir.

For sure you'll get _some_ US interest in a 1/29th scale model, but at the risk of upsetting you, it is my belief that ignoring the correct 1/32nd scale will lose you any customers you might have had from the many US-based followers and collectors of Gauge 1, let alone us furriners who are also fans of US/Can model trains. As Mr gibs reminded us the other day, the end of the market for $5000 locos is occupied by Gauge 1-ers with lots to spend. 

It is THAT end of the train hobby market, without putting too fine a point on it, that is more likely to have the $4-5000 to spend on a single live-steam model of a rare, unique to one railroad, prototype than the mostly electric/plastic 1/29th-ers. 

Heck, all of my 1/29th stuff added up cost less than that...

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Gordon, 

I always found it interesting that the streamlining on the LNER A4 was improved to allow smoke to clear the cab through the accidental imprint of a designer's thumb on the clay model behind the chimney. Now how much of that is true I am not exactly certain, but it sure does make a good design story! 

Certain aspects of US prototype streamlining were functional in that there were often smoke lifters incorporated into the design. This was true of the SP GS-4 (There was an arched portion directly behind (along with the extensions on the sides) the stack that aided in providing updraft, to a lesser extent it was improved by the Western Pacific on their copies of the GS-6, by adding large Elephant ears (ala Union Pacific 4-8-4's). I doubt that the SP had wind tunnel tested any of this, as it is not covered in the plethora of books on their motive power. 

For the large part, since there were few loading gauge restrictions, power was often made bigger or more efficient mechanically rather than spend development monies on aerodynamics. Much akin to the over-the-top styling of the late 40-50's American automobiles, they looked good going down the road at any speed, regardless if the styling was functional or purely cosmetic.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Gordon
A quick search indicates that wind tunnel testing was utilized by PRR
In 1936, after extensive wind tunnel testing on clay models, a number of these locomotives were streamlined at Altoona. The streamlining increased the weight to 150 tons but reduced the wind resistance by over one third at 60 m.p.h.


NYC
Wind tunnel tests 

New York Central Railroad By Brian Solomon, Mike Schafer
Page 86


Zapf concluded from wind-tunnel tests on scale models that at typical passenger-train speeds of 75 miles per hour, streamlining reduced drag by 30 percent, permitting a 2 ½ to 12 percent increase in pulling capacity over traditional non-streamlined locomotives. Nearly all of Zapf’s suggestions were incorporated in America’s first streamlined steam engine, the handsomely shrouded “Commodore Vanderbilt” (subject of this history), which rolled out of New York Central’s Albany shops in December, 1934. Zapf and his associates at Case were solely responsible for the unique streamlined design, with Zapf heading up the design team. Carl Kantola of New York Central helped adapt the concept to the requirements of the actual locomotive, New York Central’s “Hudson” No. 5344, making design modifications for lubricating the running gear, adding steps, walkways, handrails, incorporating cab design, etc., the finished product becoming the prototype for many successful following streamlined designs. 


Milwaukee Road


Wind tunnel tests- Hiawatha 




I am sure that most streamlined locomotives if wind tunnel tested would have results that indicate, at a given point (high speed runs), a benefit of the shroud vs. non-shroud configuration in particular an excellent locomotive like the N&W J class 611 that represents both style and function.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By csinc on 21 Mar 2010 10:26 AM 
Sorry you think it is ugly, everyone has their own preference. As for using Butane, it might be possible to also to it in alcohol, but butane seems to be easier and a little cheaper for the manufacturer. 

Wuhu seems to do a good job, I have several of the QJs they made and they are better detailed than most of the locomotives made by more famous makers. If you have advice on other manufacturers who do custom work I would be interested in getting their contact details.

-Adam 

Adam
Might be a bit of conflict in purpose as to your build philosophy and the "G- Gauge" (G- for garden) clients of 1:29. For example, many like the fine details of USA products but complaint about detail parts falling off. Then there is the garden railway and track as to size relative to train requirements. Finally, getting coaches for a proper set would be an additional cost factor that a modeler would have to consider.


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

The purpose of this thread was to see if there was any interest in producing a model of this locomotive and it is very clear there is not.

I have decided not to develop this any further so that discussion might as well end on it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The purpose of this thread was to see if there was any interest in producing a model of this locomotive and it is very clear there is not. 

Adam, 

I think that you're listening to the wrong folk. As pointed out above, with all the regional railroads in the US, this (national) audience is going to have a favorite, and the L-1 obviously wasn't it. But that doesn't mean there aren't 15 or 20 fans of streamlined live steam locos that would admire your choice. Having worked at the B&O Museum and studied it, the loco is gorgeous - well proportioned and powerful looking. 

I found Tac's comment that he preferred the Royal Hudson hilarious (no offense Tac.) Isn't the Royal Hudson slightly streamlined, a 4-6-4 also and roughly the same size? It just shows that some folk like CN/CP locos and don't like the C&O (or any other railroad.) 

That being said, the L-1 is a bit of a tough choice. The yellow paint is a love/hate issue, and the problems of finding stock to match are not insignificant. Poppet valves are another problem for the 'fidelity to prototype' crowd - even if you can't see them, having simple slide or piston valves between the frames is going to put some folk off. 

Finally, the 1/29th scale is probably a deal breaker. There are few extant models (Accu 0-6-0 and Aristo Mike) in live steam in that scale. All the live steam meets are populated with 1/32nd equipment, so the person who likes a scale, detailed (expensive) model is not going to love the 1/29th part. And if Aristos heavyweight coaches are slightly undersized, they look pretty good behind a 1/32nd scale size loco!


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By csinc on 22 Mar 2010 08:18 AM 
I have decided not to develop this any further so that discussion might as well end on it. 


That's unfortunate. I most likely wouldn't have bought one myself (if I had a spare $3500 burning a hole in my pocket I probably would have considered it, if it was 1:32 scale anyway), but I was very interested in seeing how this project developed. Clearly this wasn't about _"I want to get into the locomotive building/importing business, what should I build that's going to be a big seller and make me lots of money?_" but rather _"I have a favorite prototype that I'd like to see in live steam, can I get enough people interested to make it happen?_" - I'm sure many of us have had similar fantasies about a favorite prototype at one point or another (especially one that the major manufacturers would be unlikely to choose on their own - Northern Pacific Q-3, anybody?), so I for one salute you Adam for taking the initiative to put your idea out there and trying to make it happen. 

I'd also suggest that you don't give up just yet, just because this one thread on MLS degenerated into a "no, you should build my favorite engine instead" and "I think streamlining is ugly, but here's a picture of my dog" discussion. How many units you need to sell in order to proceed? Have you tried putting out feelers through the C&O Historical Society, the B&O Museum, or any C&O fan/modeling forums (Yahoo groups, etc)? 

One point that was raised here that I think you should consider though is the 1:32 vs. 1:29 issue. So far, what little live steam has been available in 1:29 has been at a far lower price point, and the idea seems to be to entice "steam-curious" 1:29'ers off the fence. I get the impression though that for most 1:29 folks, one steam engine is enough. It's fun to fire up and run once in a while, but more of a hassle than the sparkies they're used to. Most of the 1:29 steam engines I've seen personally (my own Aristo Mikado included) were bought in spite of the scale by people who would have preferred 1:32, simply because the price was too good to pass up. On the other hand, there is already a well-established market for live steam in 1:32 scale, and there are collectors out there who have the desire and the means to buy every new locomotive that comes along "just because" (would be nice, but no, I'm definitely not one of them). I think you'll get further with the 1:32 collectors than you will with the 1:29 sparky crowd. Doesn't really matter what cars are available to pull behind the L-1 if it's going to be a shelf queen alongside an Aster Allegheny.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 22 Mar 2010 09:33 AM 

I found Tac's comment that he preferred the Royal Hudson hilarious (no offense Tac.) Isn't the Royal Hudson slightly streamlined, a 4-6-4 also and roughly the same size? It just shows that some folk like CN/CP locos and don't like the C&O (or any other railroad.) 



Sir - you have chosen to misrepresent my comments about the Royal Hudson and the OP's choice of locos. I never said that I preferred the RH to this choice, in fact, I never made any comparison at all. All my life I have had a great love of the Canadian steam locos that I grew up with, and the RH was one of them. To tell the truth, ANY Canadian live steamer, semi-streamlined or not, would have gotten my vote, but when Jerry hyde promised us a a Royal Hudson the way I remembered it, I was over the moon at the news. 

We all have locos we would like to see - the two that I would like to see are the SP&S #700 or the ATSF #3751. Why? I've seen them both at distances where you could not put a piece of paper between me and the loco, been behind them, smelled the smell and caught the smuts. 

Not once did I write that I did not 'like the C&O'. Not to put to fine a point on it, it's a railroad of which I know nothing at all, so I am hardly likey to say I don't like it. 

To sum up - The L-1 ain't Canadian, and it ain't 700 or 3751.


So from me, no banana.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gentlemen, 
This man wants a loco for his use and to get he needs 15 or so more to join him. 

Where did he say he wanted anybody to tell him how to mass market this loco? 

Where did he assk for a different loco to satisfy your needs? 

Either you like the yellow belly or you don't. If you do and already have 1:29 equipement then contact him with your order, otherwise look for somebody else to make the loco YOU want. 

Why we need to get so emotional about his post I don't know! 

Once again he's wants this loco and 15 more to join him and some tell him his scale is wrong for live steam????? BS.... it's right for him. 

Now then as adults we see, we decide yea or nay. The yea's should contact him and the rest should be quiet. 

'Cept all you who 'know better' start cutting him down and tell him what he should do differently to the point the project gets dropped! 

Didja win?


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

I guess you could say I'm one of the 1/29th scale "steam curious" people, but there's such a lack of 1/29th scale mainline steam locomotives (both in electric and live steam) that I'd consider this locomotive even though it wouldn't be my first choice. I particularly like that it's such a unique design, and it also helps that I like yellow.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

If I was votin' I'd vote for the N&W J 611!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave
Where is that shot at, in your yard?!


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm surprised that no suggested the CN "Bullet Nose Betty".


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The view of 611 was shot in Wassena Park, Roanoke, VA when the Roanoke Transportation Museum (now known as the Virginia Museum of Transportation) was located there. This means the photo was taken prior to 611 being restored to excursion service. A severe flood in 1985 prompted the the museum to move its collection to the former N&W LCL freight house on Norfolk Ave. in downtown Roanoke, where it is located today. Both 611 and 1218 were outside Roanoke and in excursion service when the flood happened. 

Hope this helps, 
David Meashey


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 22 Mar 2010 11:23 AM 
Gentlemen, 
This man wants a loco for his use and to get he needs 15 or so more to join him. 

Where did he say he wanted anybody to tell him how to mass market this loco? 

Where did he assk for a different loco to satisfy your needs? 

Either you like the yellow belly or you don't. If you do and already have 1:29 equipement then contact him with your order, otherwise look for somebody else to make the loco YOU want. 

Why we need to get so emotional about his post I don't know! 

Once again he's wants this loco and 15 more to join him and some tell him his scale is wrong for live steam????? BS.... it's right for him. 

Now then as adults we see, we decide yea or nay. The yea's should contact him and the rest should be quiet. 

'Cept all you who 'know better' start cutting him down and tell him what he should do differently to the point the project gets dropped! 

Didja win? 

Sir- with respect - there are a great many folks on THIS particular part of the site who MIGHT have expressed an interest, IF they had been interested. So far there is one gentleman who models in 1/29th. That's one 'yea'.

All the rest here, it would seem, model in 1/32nd. Hence the many recommendations that the model be made in that scale, to insure a wider audience and a more sure take-up on the mandatory minimum sales figure of fifteen/sixteen. This is good advice, based on a combination of a lot of knowledge and experience in sales as well as ownership, not emotion.

It seems that if the OP were to propose this model in the most popular gauge/scale combination [for standard gauge live-steamers running on 45mm track] that there may well be fifteen others willing to join him.

As for being quiet about it, the OP came to this forum for the advice of live-steamers who have not only got the experience, but acquired it by spending a lot of their own money to do it, and AFAICS, he got that advice - all of it well-intentioned, and not emotional.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dave Meashey on 22 Mar 2010 02:46 PM 
The view of 611 was shot in Wassena Park, Roanoke, VA when the Roanoke Transportation Museum (now known as the Virginia Museum of Transportation) was located there. This means the photo was taken prior to 611 being restored to excursion service. A severe flood in 1985 prompted the the museum to move its collection to the former N&W LCL freight house on Norfolk Ave. in downtown Roanoke, where it is located today. Both 611 and 1218 were outside Roanoke and in excursion service when the flood happened. 

Hope this helps, 
David Meashey That is just plain beautiful. I've got the freight version in H0....sigh....

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 22 Mar 2010 02:59 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 22 Mar 2010 11:23 AM 
Gentlemen, 
This man wants a loco for his use and to get he needs 15 or so more to join him. 

Where did he say he wanted anybody to tell him how to mass market this loco? 

Where did he assk for a different loco to satisfy your needs? 

Either you like the yellow belly or you don't. If you do and already have 1:29 equipement then contact him with your order, otherwise look for somebody else to make the loco YOU want. 

Why we need to get so emotional about his post I don't know! 

Once again he's wants this loco and 15 more to join him and some tell him his scale is wrong for live steam????? BS.... it's right for him. 

Now then as adults we see, we decide yea or nay. The yea's should contact him and the rest should be quiet. 

'Cept all you who 'know better' start cutting him down and tell him what he should do differently to the point the project gets dropped! 

Didja win? 

Sir- with respect - there are a great many folks on THIS particular part of the site who MIGHT have expressed an interest, IF they had been interested. So far there is one gentleman who models in 1/29th. That's one 'yea'.

All the rest here, it would seem, model in 1/32nd. Hence the many recommendations that the model be made in that scale, to insure a wider audience and a more sure take-up on the mandatory minimum sales figure of fifteen/sixteen. This is good advice, based on a combination of a lot of knowledge and experience in sales as well as ownership, not emotion.

It seems that if the OP were to propose this model in the most popular gauge/scale combination [for standard gauge live-steamers running on 45mm track] that there may well be fifteen others willing to join him.

As for being quiet about it, the OP came to this forum for the advice of live-steamers who have not only got the experience, but acquired it by spending a lot of their own money to do it, and AFAICS, he got that advice - all of it well-intentioned, and not emotional.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Terry
Well stated. I did not read any response that was ' 'Cept all you who 'know better' start cutting him down and tell him what he should do differently to the point the project gets dropped! " Adam needed such constructive feedback given the investment would probably be about $60-$100000 for 15 locomotives (pending on research, plans, PR, marketing, startup costs, production cost, shipping, 10% parts and materials for those "what if's such as shipping damage, and then there is insurance and the list goes on). Many MLS members have quite a bit of business experience which could guide Adam along with his venture. No one told him not to do the project, he indicated that he was closing the door. Actually, Richard gave some great advice seek C & O organizations that could be interested.

Bottom line, this query on MLS was easy compared to the actual business quest, so if Adam is easily deterred then maybe he is better off not doing a production.


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

I think the scale is a moot point as everyone seemed to indicate they did not like this particular locomotive. I seriously doubt the C&O HS itself could produce enough G scale modelers to produce it. This is not some budding business I am trying to get into, I just personally like this locomotive and my real job takes me to China regularly. For some background I had asked some of the custom model builders that were recommended by this site to make just a 1 off of this in electric for me, but none of them were interested, or were too busy. That is why I thought about trying this current route.


As TAC said, this site seems to be where most of the people who buy these things hang out and since there was really no "yes I am interested posts" I will assume I am pretty much the only person who would want one and it is not worth risking a large sum of money to only have my garage filled with a bunch of these things.


I think if several people had expressed interest then more discussion could happen on details like the scale, etc. But things seem to be overwhelmingly against any interest in a model of this particular locomotive. 


If another locomotive strikes my fancy some time again in the future I might try checking back with you guys then.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Adam, 
Perhaps this is the incorrect forum if you really want a one off electric model in 1/29? 
Did you try a similar thread in Rolling Stock, or Model Making? 
If you want a model of this locomotive, then I am sure that you will get one. 
During your visits to China, I assume then that you have visited with the Wuhu people. 
Are they 'train' people, or just a manufacturer who has made some trains? 
Always nice to know what these people are like. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure that it's fair to say that this is where most people who buy these things hang out. I'm guessing probably half of my local steaming group read this forum fairly regularly, the percentage of them who read this forum daily (keep in mind this thread has only been up for a couple days) is much lower, and I only ever see maybe 4 or 5 of us posting here. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 or 4 people I know who I'm guessing would probably be interested in the L-1 if it was offered in 1:32, and at least 2 of them never post here. 

You may be right that there aren't enough G scale modelers in the C&OHS. On the other hand, there hasn't really been much of anything available that would lure a fervent C&O fan into the gauge one live steam realm either, except for the Aster Allegheny for the price of 3 or 4 of your proposed L-1's, well out of the reach of most newcomers to the hobby. Who knows, there may very well be some out there among the C&O fan base who have been eager to get into live steam but have been unwilling to lay out the equivalent of a fleet of HO Alleghenies with DCC and sound for a live steamer lettered Rio Grande or SP. We all have our favorites, and I think even a dyed-in-the-wool HO scaler would have a difficult time passing up the ultimate model of their favorite engine if it was out there and the price wasn't too horrendous. 

Perhaps the best approach would have been to come here saying "I'm going to build this, who wants one?" rather than "I'm thinking of building this, would you be interested if I did?" - I can imagine the response would have been more like "cool, a new engine in 1:32", and less like "eww, why don't you build my favorite engine instead?". If you don't generate enough sales, you don't have to go through with it, or put it on hold until the numbers justify the production (EBT Mikado, anyone?). Just don't expect to fill your order books with a two-day-old post on MyLargeScale. 

I'd still like to know though, how many is enough? The 15-16 number Totalwrecker came up with doesn't seem unobtainable, but is that accurate?


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## maculsay (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 21 Mar 2010 10:38 PM 
No, my name is Mabel. I'm only a puppy but I'd remember if we had been properly introduced. 










Nice Briard, Chris!!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By maculsay on 22 Mar 2010 09:17 PM 



Nice Briard, Chris!! 














Howard,
That's not his beard, that's his dog!!!! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I will assume I am pretty much the only person who would want one 
I still have the copy of "Trains" magazine with the article about building the UK's new 4-6-2, and at the end it had a sidebar with the question "which engine should we build in the US? If we could." The poll started with a Big Boy (weird as a suggestion for a 'new build', as there are 6 of them around - one has to be rebuildable for a lot less than a whole new loco.) The other one was the NYC J-class Hudsons. 



if you really want a one off electric model in 1/29 
I concur with David - a 1/29th electric model might sell very nicely. Accucraft sold the K-4s fairly quickly. 



I'd still like to know though, how many is enough? The 15-16 number Totalwrecker came up with doesn't seem unobtainable, but is that accurate?
Richard, 
I'm not sure what you're asking (very complicated pair of sentences!) 

I can tell you, from experience with my EBT M-1 Railcar project, that WuHu thinks of MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) around 30 units. They did volunteer to build me 15 M-1s, but the price for development and tooling as pretty high. But not as high as you might think - typical numbers might be $10,000 up front and $1200 per model after that. [That's a Railcar, not an L-1 in live steam! ] I mention this as someone batted around a $150,000 number - maybe on another thread. 
(P.S. I did get a quote from another supplier, not in China, for a much lower development cost, but I don't think they build to the same standard.)


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

The number to make this work would be 30 pcs. 

If I did still want to do this, how would I get the message out to offline groups or clubs about this locomotive? Also are preorders or deposits a standard way for taking orders?


Unfortunately I have not been able to find any live steam (or G scale in general) clubs around where I live in Cleveland.

-Adam


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gentlemen, 
Ooops! 
I went back a re read the whole thread and I'm sorry to say the the numbers 15-16 came from Pete T not the OP... my bad. 

I also read how some are still justified asking for different locos and scale. That's the part I don't get. It went from; I'd like this for myself who else wants one? To; ???? 

John


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 23 Mar 2010 08:03 AM 
I'd still like to know though, how many is enough? The 15-16 number Totalwrecker came up with doesn't seem unobtainable, but is that accurate?
I'm not sure what you're asking (very complicated pair of sentences!) 

I was just basically wondering if 15 was the actual number quoted by the Wuhu folks, or if Totalwrecker just pulled it out of thin air when he said it in his post, since Adam hadn't actually mentioned a minimum number before I asked the question. Selling 15 of these things doesn't sound too impossibly difficult, but 30 would be more of a challenge. I think you answered my question perfectly, thanks!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete
"I can tell you, from experience with my EBT M-1 Railcar project, that WuHu thinks of MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) around 30 units. They did volunteer to build me 15 M-1s, but the price for development and tooling as pretty high. But not as high as you might think - typical numbers might be $10,000 up front and $1200 per model after that. [That's a Railcar, not an L-1 in live steam! ] I mention this as someone batted around a $150,000 number - maybe on another thread. 
(P.S. I did get a quote from another supplier, not in China, for a much lower development cost, but I don't think they build to the same standard.)"


Who retains the "property rights" for the plans, molds, parts, product, etc. Secondly, any costs for poor quality control (e.g. if 5 of the 30 are not acceptable would WuHu be responsible for replacing the five bad units or is it an additional $1200 per). Selling of the product is it exclusive or can Wuhu also sell units.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

the numbers 15-16 came from Pete T 
Sorry to cause all the confusion. As I mentioned, and Adam confirmed, the usual MOQ at WuHu is 30 units. [P.S. If they already built enough, the MOQ is 1 unit - check out the QJ on the alibaba site! ] 

However, at the moment (can't speak for next year,) the market seems a little soft (!) WuHu made me a better offer to build me fewer M-1, but had a hefty development charge. (They still came in at around $2000 each for 15 units - not bad for a 50' (30" in Fn3) railcar with a gazillion rivets.)


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

There has been lamenting the back and forth in this thread although it seems it has been tame, even calm, compared to other projects initiated by or brought to this forum. The number one example of contentiousness, unless someone has another example, seems it would be the many threads over the Mason Boogie. Does that bear remembering?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Who retains the "property rights" for the plans, molds, parts, product, etc. Secondly, any costs for poor quality control (e.g. if 5 of the 30 are not acceptable would WuHu be responsible for replacing the five bad units or is it an additional $1200 per). Selling of the product is it exclusive or can Wuhu also sell units. 
Charles, 

I think you'd have to ask Ms Flower Hu (lovely name for a live steam marketing person.) From the trading website, *WuHU Brand Arts and Crafts* it seems you can order just one 1/32nd QJ at a time (presumably development costs are now covered and they only pack one per box) or 6 pieces if it's the Porter. So unless you negotiate otherwise, it would seem they continue to offer them for sale after your order is shipped. 

Jerry at Regere (http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx ) would perhaps have some first hand experience?

My general comment is that they don't have a US presence, unlike Accucraft, which makes the repair and warranty that much more difficult.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete
Thanks, I have communicated to both.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By csinc on 23 Mar 2010 08:38 AM 
If I did still want to do this, how would I get the message out to offline groups or clubs about this locomotive? Also are preorders or deposits a standard way for taking orders?


Let me start out with the disclaimer that I've never done anything like this myself! But I have been involved with fundraising to rescue some full-scale locomotives, and I think some of the same principles may apply as far as trying to get the word out to those who may be interested. The way I would approach it is to nail down as many of the details as possible (the scale, the choice of live steam vs. electric, and the price all being high on the priority list), and have paper fliers done up to distribute to clubs and dealers that contain all the pertinent information about the model. You can also distribute it via e-mail in PDF format, and putting up a web page about it wouldn't hurt either (an online reservation form would also be very helpful). I'd contact the C&OHS to ask if they would be willing to send out copies of the flier with their newsletter to reach their membership (or alternately, put an ad in the newsletter). I'd also ask if they would be willing to put the fliers out for visitors to pick up at their museum in Clifton Forge, VA. Likewise, I'd ask the B&O Museum if they would put them out for visitors to pick up there too (you never know, some of those visitors might be L-1 devotees who went there specifically to see the prototype). 

Preorders and deposits seem to be pretty much standard these days, but since you don't have an established track record like Accucraft or Aster, you'll probably get a better initial response if you take pre-orders without deposits at first (to gauge the interest), then take the deposits only when the project is a "go" (to cover or at least help with the up-front development cost), and the balance when the locos are ready to ship. With that approach, you'll also want to allow some padding for the "cold feet" factor, there will be some percentage of the initial pre-orders who will cancel on you when real money starts to change hands. No idea what that number might be, but I'm guessing at least 10%, possibly as high as 50% or more. Hopefully some folks with real experience can chime in on this.


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