# Aristo WR dimensions



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm in the planning stages of my layout, and folks here on the forum have been hugely helpful with my questions... so here's another one.

I've been planning exclusively around Aristocraft wide-radius switches, for several reasons -- not the least of which is that their 5' radius is what I had already been planning for as a minimum radius overall.

But here's the rub. Wanting to ensure adequate space & arrangement (esp in yards), I poked around for a more detailed dimensional diagram of those switches. It was in metric; and had no radius called out. So I put it in AutoCAD, and added the Imperial dimensions:










The surprise was that the centerline radius was about 50" -- much closer to 4 feet than 5! I figured I must have something way wrong, so I wrote to AristoCraft the following:



_>Hello, I am planning an extensive layout base on your WR switches (about 50 of them)._


_>I have always understood this product to be 5' in radius. However, in looking more closely at the geometry, it seems that something is odd._


_>Please see the attached figure; it demonstrates that the dimensions produce a 50" radius — dramatically different than 60"._


_>Am I misunderstanding something? Maybe this is the wrong set of starting dimensions for your WR product? If so, could you provide me a_


_>diagram of what the actual geometry is? Please help; I've put many weeks into my layout design; and now that we_


_>are building retaining walls and such, a misunderstanding like this might be a very painful one on my end._


_>Thanks much, and sincerely, Cliff Jennings_

Now, guess what they wrote back? Only this:




_>All of our track is metric, but we state it in feet causing differences. We were metric to be compatible with LGB, but Americans do not accept metric. By a sample one in advance and build around the sample._
_>Aristo_


Now, I've read Greg Adam's excellent article, "Tips - A-C Wide Radius Switches" http://ovgrs.editme.com/WRSwitch ; but now I'm wondering if AC mis-labels even their 5' radius sectional curves? And is otherwise sloppy in things dimensional, since we "Americans do not accept metric"? 

Anyway, does anyone have a real diagram? If not, I guess I'll just buy the thing... but maybe now from LGB!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, none of the dimensions published by Aristo are accurate, lengths, diameters, etc. 

Nice BS response you got from them. 

Look around there were some threads on the measurements, and there was a little info mixed with the BS on the Aristo site. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Is there a differance between "Imperial Dementions" and every one esles Dementions. Like the English Inch and the USA inch. I think I read that somewhere in a book on Pyramids.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Another choice is the Train-LI switch which comes with a metal frog. Made in Germany, and without rivits. 
Check it out at http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/proswitch-brass-drive-right-p-448.html


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the idea Dan; their switches look great, but I'm kinda backed into a corner, in needing ~5' radius switches... no room for #6, #4's are too tight, and it seems no one makes #5's. But what am I saying? If Aristo blatently mis-labels their 50"R product as 60", I'm hosed anyway; so that opens the door to other things, if I have to re-do my arrangement anyway. 

I was also counting on the lower cost of the WR's...


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg,

I looked at your article on AC WR switches, where you say: 

*The switches do indeed have an effective radius of 5'. It can be substituted perfectly anywhere in a 10' diameter curve, although since it's curved part is shorter than a normal piece of sectional track, a short section of curved track must be added to exactly replace one piece of sectional track.

* 
This is in sync with what Greg Adams (you don't go by a psuedonym, do you?) wrote:

*You might expect that at an angle of 18 degrees, the radius is less than 5 feet but it isn't. To verify, I superimposed one of the switches with a regular 5 foot radius, 30 degree curve. As you can see in picture 2 they align perfectly. The switch is 5 feet.* 
These statements make me think that the diagram I started with is not correct -- not only is it not 5', it calls out a 20 degree angle.
Or is this a different / obsolete version of the switch? I emailed Aristo for an up-to-date diagram, but I'm not holding my breath...

Thanks,
Cliff


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In our "outdoor" world, close is often good enough. The WR is close enough to a 5' radius to work, but it's not EXACTLY 5' as you have found. 

It matches the Aristo 5' radius track, which is also not 5' radius. I guess that is what I was trying to communicate. 

Thus the phrase "effective radius" in my words you quoted. 

What I did is use RR-Track, a $99 program, and got close enough that tweaking the actual track a bit got it to fit where it should have. 

the 5' straight is actually 4' 11" for example. 

The best advice I can give you is if you have very tight tolerances where your track is going, buy the RR-Track program and then be prepared for a few tweaks. 

You could also go to the effort to get all measurements exact, but you won't get them from Aristo. 

I have read that article before, did not notice the Author's name. There are 2 articles on my site on the WR switch.


I've updated my web page to try to make it clearer. 


Regards, Greg


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg; I'll check out the software you mentioned. 
Still can't see how an advertised radius could be 16% off... 
Regards, 
Cliff 
PS, Greg Adams is the author of the article I cited earlier.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I see the article, did not go there. 

There's a thread here about the measurements, and reading it you can draw your own conclusions... my opinion is that (Aristo's specs) it's a combination of just plain sloppy on the curve diameters, and just plain cheap on the lengths (all the lengths advertised are longer than the actual track, which means it's not a random error). 

Make 10's of thousands of feet of track and save an inch each time, it adds up. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

As for a useful piece of software you might take a look at MLS' own stanman's (Stan Silverman), check out the example Large Scale Track tab.

Handy Converter for Model Railroaders[/b]


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good call, forgot Stan has a track page, this is the screenshot of the LGB one:

*http://www.stanstrains.com/HC15LGBScreenSt.htm*

Regards, GReg


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When ever planing a layout alwaws allow for a fudge factor. None of the stuff we are dealing with are machined to perfect tolerances. If that were so we could not affored to do this. I give my pressmen a metric ruler. I tell them to measure the sheet. Once they do that all my Sheet Size probems go away. When they use a covertion chart all **** breaks loose.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Absolutely right, John; but 50" when it's supposed to be 60"? That's not in the realm of "prefect tolerances": it's in the realm of either a) I've been totally barking up the wrong tree, in regards to a representative diagram or b) gross technical misrepresentation of the product. My gut says it's the former; that the diagram I thought refers to the wr's is something else. Surely it must be my ignorance! All I want to know is at least the rough dimensions of the thing. 

Good news though, I just ran across the following link and embedded diagram: http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?pid=44766 

I'm about to run it thru the CAD mill, and I'll post up what I find. 

Thanks all, 
Cliff


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

From the beginning; Bigger is Better has been a mantra of the sales department.... not so much from the technical side. 

R1, R2, R3 avoided measurements and you bought what there was and didn't quibble between actual and reality. 

Aristo brought an Americanized version for the American market, yet they needed to be fully compatible with LGB. 

How would you describe LGB track in inches/feet? There-in lies the rub, and Bigger is Better! 

Actual switches don't have radius, they have diverging angles and straight track, model switches do to help with sectional track configurations... 

John


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, I traced the thing; and quite different dimensions! 

So it looks like I DID begin with the wrong diagram. After hunting for some time, I found the link I got the initial diagram from : http://www.kcndrr.com/HowTo/Aristo%...switch.JPG

Lo and behold, I was looking at the *X*-Wide switch. Didn't realize the diff; my bad, sorry for all the rucus. 

Anyway, this 18 degree angle matches what was said in the article I cited earlier. Still haven't found a definitive / official diagram; but 18 degrees / 20" long / 60" radius is plenty accurate for me -- even plus / minus 5%! 

Thanks for all your help guys,
Cliff


----------



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,
Another consideration about adding some extra space around the track areas is the overhang differences for various locomotives and cars. I have a hand bent 8ft diameter [R3] curve passing through an 8ft long tunnel. Although it was built using streamliners for testing, I sweated bullets about my new heavyweights not striking the inside walls [OK]. I don't know if a friend's Bm K-27 wil clear or not. 

Jim C.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome to the world of Aristo. They (the Kool-Aid drinkers) always say it's "close enough". There are quite a few pages on a recent thread about their advertised length of track and what is actually shipped. I'm not surprised the radius was wrong.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

While trying to do a review of the new Piko 35222 R5 switch, this thread was brought up as to the differences in Aristo Craft switch radius. Having the 20370 and 20380 SS wide radius switches which are the same radius as the 30370 and 30380 Brass wide radius switches. Now RLD Hobbies calls the 30370 a Wide X switch while Reindeere pass just calls the 30370 a 10' switch. So, did Aristo Craft make a 8 ft switch at one time?


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

"...So, did Aristo Craft make a 8 ft switch at one time?" 

No, 

-Ted


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

In the "for what it is worth" category, I just went out and measured the diameter of my curves. I use the Aristo wide radius curves. I got 9'10". This is as the track lies on the ballast.  These curves match the curve on the Aristo wide radius switches, when I put one on top of the other.

Several years ago I replaced all my Aristo WR switches with LGB 18000 switches. Instead of a 5' radius I now have a 7.5' radius on the switches.

Chuck


----------



## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

This update to the thread was really helpful regarding radius/diameter of Aristo track. Explains why my measured curves for the ladder system are a bit larger than the actual track. Good thing I have a rail bender to bring track up to true.
I got 5 or 6 Aristo X wide switches off E-Bay so I'm using the actual switch as a measurement device.
Alan


----------



## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

At times the responses from Aristo-Craft regarding technical issues were to say the very least nonsense. Some would say B. S. Given that indelicate response one could say that if B. S. was music that Aristo-Craft possessed a symphony orchestra. 

Aristo-Craft made 3 switches 1) 8 ft. diameter 2) wide radius [10 ft. diameter] and 3) #6. The 60 in. (5 ft.) straight section was actually a metric measurement (1.5 m.). 1.5 meters is in fact 59.05 inches. The switches were also metric dimensions. 

Respectfully, 

NYC Buff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, 2009, that's a trip down memory lane! And I still remember my deep sense of confusion and frustration over this issue. 

But, the dimensional matters were solved when I went over to Train Li, ha ha! 


Still have that deep sense of confusion and frustration though... Maybe it wasn't the WR's...









Cliff


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By NYC Buff on 21 Jan 2014 02:25 PM 
SNIP
Aristo-Craft made 3 switches 1) 8 ft. diameter 2) wide radius [10 ft. diameter] and 3) #6.
SNIP 

Respectfully, 

NYC Buff 
Can anyone identify the Aristo-Craft part number for the cited "1) 8 ft. diameter" switch?

Thank you,

-Ted


----------



## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Ted what is a ART-11200? 
Dick


----------



## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

There seems to be misconceptions everywhere. I don't have any AristoCraft switches so I can only go by what seems logical.
I think I have found the source of the 'myth' of the elusive 8 foot Aristo switch.


AristoCraft ‘10ft’ curves are actually 3000mm diameter and there's 12 sections in a circle, each being 785mm in length on the center line. 30 deg.
AristoCraft 'X-Wide' switches (ART-30370/80 2008/09 Catalog) same diameter of 3000mm but there's 20 in a circle going by AnyRail, each being 471mm? in length on curve center line. 18 deg. Cliffy's traced design suggests they may be a bit longer, although his diameter/radius is incorrect. 
AristoCraft ‘8ft’ curves are actually 2400mm diameter and there are 16 pieces in a circle, each being 471mm in length on the center line. 22.5 deg. 

You can see that casual observation of an AristoCraft '8ft' curve section would look much the same as an AristoCraft '10ft' X-wide switch as they are theoretically the same center line curve length of 471mm. 

AristoCraft 2008-2009 Catalog 

Possible published errors, unless I am missing some aspects:-
AristoCraft products publishing their track dimensions rounded off in feet with no reference to the actual metric fact of the matter (originally designed to fit in with LGB).
AnyRail design software's CAD size of AristoCraft curves and switches in exact rounded foot dimensions rather than the slightly smaller but actual metric sizes. 
Train-li comparing the AristCraft X-Wide switch to a ProSwitch R4 (Radius 4ft, actual 1200mm) in a table on their website. 

Andrew


----------



## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dick, I think the ART-11200 is the 4ft'er or should I say 1200mm diameter R/H Euro brass. 

Andrew


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree with Garratt (Andrew) and think the Aristo Turnout cited as 8 foot was wrongly identified and is actually about 4 foot diameter for its turnout path.
Also, note the part numbers on the box end for the various offerings for this basic switch.










-Ted


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure where the Wide Turnout and X wide came from, but when I went looking for 8 foot dia turn outs from Aristo Craft, I was told they didn't make them in 8 foot but that their 10 foot turnouts were close enough that they would work. So I bought them and they do work with 8 foot Aristo Craft curve sectional track. Allowing for the fudge factor used in Aristo Crafts dia determinations, the wide / wide X switches should work well with either diameter curve you're using, unless you are expecting perfection.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

wide RADIUS 10 foot DIAMETER switch 
Even Aristo was confused


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it possible that Aristo first came out with the 4' diameter, then 8' which because it was larger they called it X-wide radius and then later came out with the 10'ers?

The only Aristo track and switches I have is the wide radius 10' diameter, which I started using in 1994. I think that it was a fairly new product then.


Chuck


----------



## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ted, the AristoCraft '4ft' switch has nothing to do with the issue of the elusive '8ft' Aristo switch (turnout). 
I think the AristoCraft '4ft' (1200mm actual dia) switch is exactly the same as an AristoCraft '4ft' curve section. 

Andrew


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Andrew, 
I agree with you. The reason for my response was in reply to "NYC Buff", since he stated: "Aristo-Craft made 3 switches 1) 8 ft. diameter 2) wide radius [10 ft. diameter] and 3) #6." 
After which Dick stated "what is a ART-11200" 
Thus, it seems the ART-11200 was mistakenly considered as an 8 foot diameter switch track. 

-Ted


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 23 Jan 2014 09:59 AM 
I'm not sure where the Wide Turnout and X wide came from, but when I went looking for 8 foot dia turn outs from Aristo Craft, I was told they didn't make them in 8 foot but that their 10 foot turnouts were close enough that they would work. So I bought them and they do work with 8 foot Aristo Craft curve sectional track. Allowing for the fudge factor used in Aristo Crafts dia determinations, the wide / wide X switches should work well with either diameter curve you're using, unless you are expecting perfection. 
Randy, comparing the Aristo WR turnout to both 10 foot and 8 foot Aristo track sections, it looks like the WR turnout is close to the 8 foot curvature with the 8 foot only slightly tighter.
Given that, it's my experience when making a complete 360 degree circle of connected track sections, the diameter becomes slightly less when compared to stand alone track sections - probably owing to a "memory" effect during the factory rail bending process that tends to "spring-out" the track.










-Ted


----------



## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

Gentlemen, 

I apologize for an error made in a previous post to this thread. 

Aristo-Craft made three switches: 1) 4 foot diameter, 2) Wide Radius [10 foot diameter] and 3) #6. They did not make an 8 foot diameter switch. The information about track including switches is available in the on-line Aristo-Craft catalog on pages 11, 12 and 13. Part numbers and materials are as follows: 
4 foot diameter brass (2 foot radius) Euro Style 11200/11205 right manual/remote 11210/11215 left manual/remote; USA Style 30300/30310 right manual/remote 30350/30360 left manual/remote 
Wide Radius [10 foot diameter {5 foot radius}] brass/stainless steel 30370/20370 right manual remote 30380/20380 left remote/manual 
#6 brass/stainless steel 30330/20330 right manual 30340/20340 left manual 
11xxx brass Euro Style 11 ties per foot 
20xxx stainless steel USA Style 14 ties per foot 
30xxx brass USA Style 14 ties per foot 

I hope that this information corrects the previous misinformation presented and is useful to any interested parties. As noted in other posts to this thread all dimensions are stated nominally as English units but are in actuality metric dimensions. 

Respectfully, 

NYC Buff


----------



## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

Gentlemen, 

I apologize for an error made in a previous post to this thread. 

Aristo-Craft made three switches: 1) 4 foot diameter, 2) Wide Radius [10 foot diameter] and 3) #6. They did not make an 8 foot diameter switch. The information about track including switches is available in the on-line Aristo-Craft catalog on pages 11, 12 and 13. Part numbers and materials are as follows: 
4 foot diameter brass (2 foot radius) Euro Style 11200/11205 right manual/remote 11210/11215 left manual/remote; USA Style 30300/30310 right manual/remote 30350/30360 left manual/remote 
Wide Radius [10 foot diameter {5 foot radius}] brass/stainless steel 30370/20370 right manual remote 30380/20380 left remote/manual 
#6 brass/stainless steel 30330/20330 right manual 30340/20340 left manual 
11xxx brass Euro Style 11 ties per foot 
20xxx stainless steel USA Style 14 ties per foot 
30xxx brass USA Style 14 ties per foot 

I hope that this information corrects the previous misinformation presented and is useful to any interested parties. As noted in other posts to this thread all dimensions are stated nominally as English units but are in actuality metric dimensions. 

Respectfully, 

NYC Buff


----------



## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

A '10ft' Wide switch (exact length may slightly differ) would appear to drop into the same gap as an '8ft' diameter curve although the degree angle would be different. 
An '8ft' dia curve of 22.5 degree then a '10ft' dia switch of 20 degree, although there would be enough fudge factor in the joiners, one would not necessarily notice much wrong. 
The switch's straight tangent would be off once the switch settled into it's fudged home. This will produce slight errors from plan and a slight kink at each switch join (1.25 deg). 


If designing a plan using 8ft curve sections with the joins perpendicular to a wall etc. and having a switch's straight running parallel to the wall, the straight will kick away from the wall because of the lesser angle of 20 deg being forced where it should be the curve's 22.5 degree (would probably fudge into a 'straight' error of 1.25 degrees or about 12mm at other end of switch). 

So watch out for that if you like to get things looking perfect as planned!
Getting pedantic but I always notice these 'non parallel errors' which seem to be common place. 

To avoid this error when using '8ft' 2400mm dia curves, set the switch join 26mm off from the perpendicular of the approach curve's center point.
Of course it may not matter, depends on plan. This is for a theoretical '8ft' circle track. 
I hope I got that right... 

Andrew


----------



## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

As is often the case a great plan seldom survives contact with reality. I use AnyRail software as a design tool and it gets me close but once on the ground I use the actual switches and track to double check before putting in supports.


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Having debugged / modified an Aristo Stainless Steel Wide Radius (10 foot dia.) switch track, I tried testing it as a section within an foot circle of track. It's hard to tell it being a mismatch except for a gap where the rails butt - some of which owing to the rail placement tolerance of the turnout itself.









See Video:



-Ted


----------



## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah Ted, good demo in practice. I have none to play with just maths. 
The open join is due to the turnout having lesser curve angle of 20 degrees forced into where the 8ft curve section is 22.5 degrees. 
The turnout looks to be a little longer too which alters things in the rest of the circle possibly making the joins open up on the inside rail a little. 
You can't trust AnyRail because their AristoCraft turnout's and curve's dimensions are to perfect inches rather than the actual metric size. Good software otherwise. 
You would think in this precision age of computers all should be perfect but 'BS in' equates to 'BS out'! 
Perhaps we should tell AnyRail but in my experience they probably won't bother fixing it. All their track is probably incorrect. 

Andrew


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Andrew, 

In actuality, the gap at the turnout would not be as pronounced as shown in the video for a few reasons if I took the time to do some fine adjustments: 

The straight rail in the turnout itself is not "squared-up" with the curved rail. If I corrected this the gap would be reduced about 1/3. 
The Aristo 8 foot diameter circle of track surrounding the turnout has a few gaps in some of its section's rails that I did not take the time to correct. (Rail connections are butted togehter for either inboard or outboard rails.)
My experience with Aristo pre-bent track sections is that they tend to spring out a bit until they are all connected in a complete circle. Therefore, the un-sprung sections diameter is slightly greater than when all are connected together. 

Spending time to do some tweaking would make the turnout in the whole 8 foot diameter circle look much better. 
That said, I don't intend to actually use the WR turnout in an 8 foot circle. I used the 8 foot circle for testing of the turnout only. I did use 3 WR turnouts in a 10 foot diameter circle. 


As to the difference in length of the turnout's diverging path compared to an 8 foot dia. track section:









The curved path of the WR turnout is a bit more than 1/4 inch longer than an 8 foot track section.









-Ted


----------

