# Did the Penn.T-1 ever hall Freight



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Two all the Pennsylvania experts,Did the T-1 in her later days pull freight.I have a viedo of her doing helper service in Altoona


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Bob, 
I am NOT an expert, but I have been through my T1 (as was pointed out to me - NO hyphen) file, and can find no photos or reference to them pulling freight. 
I would imagine that the large diameter 80" drivers were not really suitable for getting a heavy freight train moving from a standing start, hence the creation of the Q2 freight version duplexii with 69" diameter wheels. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

It's a little hard to imagine one on a coal drag, but a time freight, especially one with perishables, might well have rated one west of Pittsburgh. After Southern Pacific dieselized its passenger trains in California the destreamlined GS 4-8-4s ran out their miles on freight in the flatlands.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Come to think of it, use of a T1 in helper service east of Pittsburgh means that anything was possible. Maybe one did pull a coal drag in a pinch.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This page: *http://eddiesrailroad.bl...trong>**

Says they hauled freight as well... a few minutes googling will probably yield pictures confirming this, although I would think wheel slip would not allow them to pull heavy trains.

Greg*


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Greg, 
With all due respect to Eddie, by the looks of it he is NOT a PRR expert. 
I would like to read or see proof to confirm it. 
One of my booklets on the T1 makes no mention of them being used for freight, and about their last days it says: 
"By the end of 1949 practically the whole fleet of duplexii was laid aside. Many T1s were lying at Crestline from August of that year; others were finishing their short days on 25 mile locals between Pittsburgh and Greenburg." 
I am assuming that the 'locals' were passenger! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, and mention his site only SAYS that they hauled freight, my suggestion was to Google around and get better information... I don't think he is necessarily an expert either... I always look for proof and photographs would be what I would want to see. 

Also, as I mentioned, wheelslip was an issue with that loco already, which would seem to me (again I am not an expert either) that pulling freight would be a poor job for that loco... 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. The 4-4-6-4 Q-2 was supposedly the freight version of the 4-4-4-4 T-1, but I have not researched thoroughly...


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing I know indicates any freight service...

The Q2 wasn't a better performer than the J1 on a 50-mph freight RR, and cost more to operate. The Q2 (and the T1 as well) were higher speed locomotives and if they couldn't operate at that speed range, they tended to use more coal and water per unit of out put than conventional, similar sized locomotives.

Seems impractical to operated the T1 at freight speeds and get the job done...in other words PRR never tested T1 for freight service nor designed it as such (unlike the N & W J 611 that was tested for freight service as per records)


As to wheel slip on the T1 (myth)...if one can learn how to drive a "race car" locomotive then properly operated this was the result:

On the other hand, given one of the best crews, things were different. Three days before the above run, #6110 took a 21-car passenger train over the Middle Division, rain and fog the whole way, with two slips recorded between Harrisburg and Altoona. They left Harrisburg six minutes late and arrived two minutes early at Altoona. There were at least three intermediate stops and no difficulties were encountered at any of them. This run is described in PRR memo dated 9/24/45. It is based on a report by a Special Duty Enginman who was riding 6110 during the run. 

The above contrasting operations were recorded during a two month test period during Sept and Oct 1945. Most or all of the reports of runs during this period have survived. How the crews operated the T1's had a major impact on their performance.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well when I googled the T1 I found no mention of freights and there was a problem with the front power truck slipping. Not enough weight on those drivers. 
Most comments center on the fact they shouldn't have been built as better dismals were already proving themselves on other roads. 

John


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot of the T1's handing problems were the result of ham-handed operation, shoddy maintenance practices, among other things mentioned earlier in this thread. I trust you’ve seen the various articles in PRRT&HS magazine, The Keystone over the past several years (e.g., Vol.34, #3; Vol.34, #4; Vol.37, #1). If not they’re worth a look. Apparently the enginemen who got the hang of them didn’t have much trouble starting. As far as high speed slip is concerned, they also said that it was a matter of adjusting the cutoff. Find the right notch and the problem didn’t occur. The T1 also required much greater attention to proper handling to get the most out of it. Having said that, in the rough and tumble world of railroading, you can’t and shouldn’t count on great rail conditions, flawless track geometry, scrupulous maintenance procedures, and superbly trained operating crews. Most of its poor reputation is based on the early performance of the two prototypes, which had problems aplenty (See PRRT&HS Keystone, Vol.37, #1, pgs 20-21). When tested over-the-road they performed about as well as a conventional 4-8-4 of similar capacity. On PRR in Sept 1945, there were extensive road tests conducted (Keystone Vol.37, #1, cited above), where both favorable and unfavorable performances were documented and explained. On C&O in 1946 they didn’t slip-slide away like some accounts allege (C&O History, May 2005 cited above). On N&W in 1948 there were no reports of slipping at either low or high speeds, and speeds of up to 90 mph with a 1,500-ton train were recorded (test report N&W HS archives). T1 excelled at only one thing: going really, really fast. Once past about 75 mph, very few locomotives could stay with it or operate as economically.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Charles,David,John,Greg and Reg Stocking,Thanks for the Info.When My T-1 comes I will now only Be pulling Passengers Cars.The 40 MDC hoppers I have will have to be pulled by somthing other that the new T-1 that is comming in November.This is a BIG BIG engine total of 48 inch Long.This will be like Christmas in 1953 when I got that American Flyer train set under the Christmas tree.Are You getting one ? 

Agan Thanks All


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Prototype is one thing, your railroad is another... it will be a magnificent loco, pull what you want... enjoy! 

(Don't forget to post pictures!) 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Is that tender attachment to the engine solid or is that a flexible boot?

Is there that much weight in the tender that it needs that many wheels?

It is a great looking engine. 

JJ


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

John,The Pennsylvania Railroad’s 4-4-4-4 Class T1 passenger locomotives were their last-built steam locomotives. They were not articulated, but were Duplex drive and had poppet valves. The first two, #6110 and #6111, were built by Baldwin in 1942. These locomotives were considered successful and could pull 16 cars at 100 MPH. They were also technically advanced and more efficient than previous designs. Later, 50 more of these were built in 1945-46 for a total of 52. Locomotives #5500 to #5524 were built by the Pennsylvania Railroad’s Juniata Shops and #5525 to #5549 were built by Baldwin. The large tenders carried 38.6 tons of coal, 19,200 gallons of water and could travel between Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and Chicago, Illinois with only one stop. Wheel slip problems were later found to be controllable by more experienced engineers. The streamline design by Raymond Lowey was in later years the inspiration for the Baldwin Lima “Shark Nose” diesels. JH


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

There are no photos of a B&O pacific painted blue ,with 80" drivers pulling a work train ...................BUT I have seen it myself on the St Louis Div when the final miles were being used up .
And I also was train watching with my father when the Southern freight local came into Evansville one afternoon with the usual 3 units , BUT , they were all GM covered wagon cab units , .......usually a GP unit was included , but NOT this time , the yard crew used a F-3A to switch the Evansville yards and take the interchange cars to the C&EI Wansford yards that shift , and the crew was mad , but they did the work , so never say never .


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