# Train-Li R7 frog question.



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I was running my Mallet today and noticed that when I was going through the R7 switches there was a small hop of the trucks. I got closer to the ground and watched as the train went through the turnout. I saw that the center point of the frog, the metal point where the tracks cross, was a little higher the rails on either side of it causing the wheels hop when the train passed over it. I placed a straight edge over it and it was indeed a bit higher than the rails.

My question is this, is that normal or should I grind it down to be level with the other rails or leave it alone?






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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The metal frog can be removed to see if there is anything under it. 

There is a screw and lock washer on the bottom of the switch, just remove the screw. 

the metal frog can not be removed with ease. 

If nothing is there, just reinsert the frog and see if it was just a seating issue, and get back to us at Train-Li with your results before you grind the frog.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My friend Ted has noticed a similar issue on his "R7" switches. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

OOPS!!! I should have said the metal frog can be easily removed once the screw is removed form the bottom. Somehow the word not snuck into my previous post and I did not notice the error until now.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I've not dealt with the Train-Li turnouts, but I don't think that I would be so quick to try to "fix" this. I've found that the AristoCraft 10-foot diameter turnouts are similar in that the frog area is raised relative to the outter rails. I saw this to be a problem and filed it down flush and filed out the "channels" so the wheels wouldn't raise up through the frog thinking this would fix the problem of my heavyweights occasionally derailing through this area.

*THIS ONLY MADE THE PROBLEM WORSE!* It seems that as the heavyweights raise up over the frogs, this differential in elevation helps the cars stay with the curve rather than hug the wrong side and hang up on the center point of the turnout. The fix was to then add a brass "shim" that holds the wheels within the guard rail. This completely fixed the problem and the heavyweights have no problems tracking through these turnouts now.

I did it like this:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, grinding down the Aristo frog flush with the rails is a good idea, but you have to keep in mind the entire system. 

When making the frog flush (as it is with the new Aristo WR turnouts and also the replacement frogs you purchase for $1), you need to realize that you are reducing the flangeway depth at the frog, so you also have to deepen the flangeways appropriately. For Aristo rolling stock, 3mm is the right amount. This is what the new turnouts and replacement frogs are also set to. 

Now, I find it hard to believe that the slight elevation can add force greater than the tension from pulling a train, but I can explain hanging up on the frog point. This is because the gauge of the wheels is often wrong (check with Aristo gauge and you will see) and also that the flangeway WIDTH at the stock rails is too wide as you said (needs to be shimmed narrower, usually a 0.020" shim works well)... should be about 0.106" ... 

You will find all of this documented on quite a few web sites, including mine. All of these fixes and more have been published for some time. 

As far as I can tell, one reason the Aristo frog was higher was to "lift" the LGB skates up in the air so they could not short to the adjacent point rail, which is the subject of another current thread. 

I do not believe this is the reason for the elevated brass insert in the Train-Li though. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Jul 2010 11:19 AM 
Todd, grinding down the Aristo frog flush with the rails is a good idea, but you have to keep in mind the entire system. 

When making the frog flush (as it is with the new Aristo WR turnouts and also the replacement frogs you purchase for $1), you need to realize that you are reducing the flangeway depth at the frog, so you also have to deepen the flangeways appropriately. For Aristo rolling stock, 3mm is the right amount. This is what the new turnouts and replacement frogs are also set to. 


Regards, Greg 


Been there done that. Reread my post. As I noted, that made matters worse and the shim totally fixed matters. It essentially "pins" the wheel inplace along the guard rail so the other wheel can't pick the wrong path.

All wheels are set using the Kadee guage, so even if they are "wrong," they are essentially the same as the other wheel sets.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ooops! 

Missed the "filed down the channels" as the flangeways... you are 100% right. 

I do have comments on the Kadee gauge: 

1. It does not set back to back. 
2. what setting you get is highly dependent on the flange profile. 
3. It has no min and max settings to follow the spec. 

I do know it's better than nothing. 

I compare the Kadee gauge to the Aristo gauge, and the NMRA and G1MRA standards on this page: (scroll down until you see the picture of the Kadee gauge)


*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-95* 



Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

After speaking with Axel (train-li top dog  ) we found out it was a combination of the Mallet's tiny pilot wheels and a slight tweek of the switch. 

I do want to make clear that I never had any problems with any derailments of any kind going through the switch, even with the Mallet at full speed pulling 17 cars. It was just that the front pilot wheels hopped a bit going through the switch, which I now know was mostly due to the fact that the pilot wheel diameter is very small which caused it to actually drop down into the flange way deeper than all the other wheels on the engine and cars. 

Ron B


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the flangeways are 3.8 mm deep on the R7 switches, I imagine to support european products. I believe Axel has frog inserts for people who need a more "American" flange depth. 

Regards, Greg


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