# The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?



## Ecoclimber (Jun 5, 2009)

My first post here but I was just wondering whether this hobby will survive the recession. With less discretionary money available and the younger generation engrained into online games, do you think this hobby will survive? Factor in the fact that the major manufacturers, Aristo, USA Trains, Bachmann, Accucraft etc. are not only suffering cash flow issues but people are going to EBay to buy thier items instead of the traditional hobby shop since the prices they buy them for are well below what most retail, online and discount hobby shops can sell them and still make a profit. I notice a ton of hobby shops closing their stores across the country and there is an excess of inventory out there. Manufacturers are leary in offering anything new in production if they can't sell what they have and have to slash prices to keep the cash flowing in. Do you think all the items that are being constanly sold on EBay is undermining the retailer to the point where the industry will just simply collapse because there is no demand?


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Its all going to collapse. The hobby will die and the last of the strong, remaining few will steal and scrounge parts from the dying others a la road warrior - 










just another meaningless thread about the death of the hobby.............. 

-Brian


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

The hobby is far from dead. 

However.... will be the death of Manufacturers with poor QA and market presence. 

gg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

The hobby is stong but the sales have ben reduced in part because having a railroad in a garden is not as popular as it once was. In my opinion the vast quantity of products we have now is vastely superior to what we had only a few years ago. For the expansion of products to continue we all need to find ways to promote the hobby and help our manufacturers improve their products to meet our evolving needs. 

Stan Ames 
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 06/05/2009 6:51 AM
The hobby is stong but the sales have ben reduced in part because* having a railroad in a garden is not as popular as it once was*. In my opinion the vast quantity of products we have now is vastely superior to what we had only a few years ago. For the expansion of products to continue we all need to find ways to promote the hobby and help our manufacturers improve their products to meet our evolving needs. 

Stan Ames 
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/ 

Move inside.









If folks were happy many years ago with an HO layout on a 4x8, then today we should be thrilled with a G gauge layout in a bedroom. I was really surprised what I could do in a 9 by 12 space and I'd still be there but for fate and a new house.

Anyway, I think that's were 'modelling' gets the attention it deserves and given that at least two manufacturers strive for some prototype detail (not toys) it's where a large part of the future may be hiding. 
The hobby is in good hands.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 06/05/2009 6:51 AM
................. help our manufacturers improve their products to meet our evolving needs. 



I have two huge problems with this statement. 1. They are WANTS, not needs. -and- What _I_ want, doesn't seem to be in sync with what YOU want, or really anybody else for that matter. But then, the manufacturers seem to tend to only do what THEY want, listen to a small pool of pet 'experts', or the vocal minority. Why else would the market have so many big engines that the average guy doesn't have room to run? 

OTOH, Lehmann Toytrain fit my wants almost perfectly, quality, indestructability, price, AND bash potential, but see what happened to them.... maybe we're getting exactly what we (as a group) ASKED for -- cheap oversized junk with lots of fiddly bits that get bent or broke in transit before the box is ever opened.


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a bunch of Lehmann Toy Train stuff...

I hardly run it 'cept at Christmas time around the tree...

I'd rather have the larger stuff with the Fiddly Bits... to go with my other larger stuff with fiddly bits...

Wanna trade?

Philip


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

When you see an expression like this on a kid's face, you believe there is hope for the future of the hobby.









(Thanks Carla.)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 06/05/2009 6:51 AM
The hobby is stong but the sales have ben reduced in part because having a railroad in a garden is not as popular as it once was. In my opinion the vast quantity of products we have now is vastely superior to what we had only a few years ago. For the expansion of products to continue we all need to find ways to promote the hobby and help our manufacturers improve their products to meet our evolving needs. 

Stan Ames 
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/ 




I'm convinced a BIG part of these has been the trend toward ever larger equipement and ever wider and larger areas of land needed to accomodate them. Their has of late been almost no attention paid to the small or medium size layout builder and certainly almost no attention paid to those who still use smaller radius circles. With the demise of LGB there has been few new items to fill this void, Bachamnn being the only exception with their Davenport, which is now coming out as their starter set which is the brightest move I've seen any company make I've seen in a while. 

the sad truth is, if you want to grow the hobby, we DONT need a K, or Big Boys, or GG1s or Dash 9s that are 3 feet long, we nood light Moguls, Priaries, and Mikes that can be run on at least 5' diameter curves (I'd prefer R1s) the fact that by requiring 8' diameters as an almost necessary entry to the hobby (at least thats what I read moslty to newbie inquiries) we are automaticly risking excluding those (like me) without sufficient real estate to build an outdoor layout around these enormous curves.

I nearly choked when some one asked about building an indoor around the ceiling layout in a 10' x 11' room and someone suggested he needed, you guessd it, 8' diamter curves! like R1 & R2 were alien entities that did not exist. Now sure someones going to point out that with R1s and R2s your rolling stock will be more limited, true, but whos fault is that, yep manufacturers, who like GM and Chrysler, got sucked into the "bigger is better" mindset and began giving us ever bigger models for a ever smaller segment of the hobby while ignoring the wider larger market of those who may be interested but have smaller yards. 

It also doesnt help that while getting bigger they've also gotten more expensive over time. not I'm not talking about a $700 K, which is low priced, but when USAs Dockside came out it MSRPed at over $800!! for a switcher? Even with sound thats pricey. 

Mik is right, the TOYTRAIN line was a terrific source for entry level modelers, thats how I got into the hobby thru along with HLWs screaming best deal in large scale, the Mack. LGBs killing off of the line leaves a big hole and few to fill it when it comes to attracting new participants in the hobby. It will interesting to see what the mfrs do to address it, if anything.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Even some of us with the space can't afford the cost of large diameter curves and switches. Even flex-rail isn't cheap. And not everybody has the time or talent to build their own switches. 

If Hartland Locomotive Works had the distribution network that the big 3 have, they could fill the void. 
As it is, their products are harder to find. and the selection much more limited. 
But sales, selection and prices would all improve with a larger distribution network. 

The hobby will be fine in spite of the manufacturers. So many participants in the hobby take time to promote it. Forums, train shows, etc. 
Ralph


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you think all the items that are being constantly sold on Ebay is undermining the retailer to the point where the industry will just simply collapse because there is no demand?



It depends on what you mean by "industry" and "demand." If you define industry as the local hobby shop, the emergence of alternative distribution channels (_i.e._, Ebay and online generally) coupled with the heavy discounting by big box retailers (_i.e._, St Aubins, Trainworld, etc.) has unquestionably reduced LHS margins. Given overhead and economies of scale, LHSs simply can't compete on price with the giant online retailers; thus, if lots of people conclude price is more important than service, the demand at many LHSs will crater and some percentage of them will fail - that's the way the market operates. If you define "industry" as the market for large scale trains generally, however, there's no reason why Ebay or the online retailers should have any material impact on _overall _demand. Ebay and the big retailers should, if anything, stimulate demand by making large scale products available at lower prices to a larger potential customer base.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Here we go again 

First, I call Bull----- 

Slow economic times bost most "at home" hobbies. Model Railroading got its big start, especially in the US, during the depression. The LHSs I have talked to on the phone have seen decent business too, citing the same reasons (people staying close to home, more time on hands, etc.) 

As for the quality issue, people complain about the expensive stuff being expensive, and the cheap stuff breaking or not being right out of the box or the lack of service. They somehow do not see the trade off!?!?! I guess my Rolls Royce story given in "the other thread" did not sink in? They will be off buying Chryslers off the lot at 40% sticker, then bitching when they realize the warranty and dealer network are gone. Trust me, I have owned enough orphaned cars....

Me? Off to run a 20+ year old LGB Stainz through the table saw, thank goodness for the quality and cost.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 06/05/2009 6:51 AM
The hobby is stong but the sales have ben reduced in part because having a railroad in a garden is not as popular as it once was.



/// I'm amazed TOC hasn't replied before now. Please allow a far lesser light to take up the slack until he emerges from within his redoubt.
Just _how_ do _you_ know the above? More polls? If so, spare me. I know about doctored polls, too. I'm especially aware of the kind you produce.


In my opinion to what we had only a few years ago.

/// In *my opinion '...* the vast quantity of products we have now is vastely superior...' may be accurate, or they may be in the beholder's eye, but today's offerings are hugely, unaffordably overpriced, trouble-prone out of the box and clumsy to learn to operate. I've learned this just by paying a mere $25 to be a legitimate participant on this forum. Just to give you a baseline (which you will ignore) when I got my first Lionel in 1948 at the age of 4, it took my Dad about 30 minutes to show me how to put it together and run it. But I'm just a Social Security noob in his dotage, sort of. What do I know? Well, I know I've yet to spend a dime on a new piece of rolling stock. But 'common opinion' has it that 'it's cheaper to buy RTR than build from scratch'. True, perhaps. But by scratchbuilding, one can pay as one goes along, rather than all in a lump sum. And then have what one wants, instead of what some feather merchant thinks will sell. I might observe that people like you are legitimately open to the charge that you predate on the RTR folk by means of your 'polls'. ('Predate' means 'to prey upon.)

For the expansion of products to continue we all need to find ways to promote the hobby and help our manufacturers improve their products to meet our evolving needs.


/// *"We?" *Then might *you* consider trolling honestly for data and publishing same? Might *you* consider the input from people much more highly educated and/or experienced than I? Or, more importantly, you. Or is your first refuge to call in a hired gun to quell the peasants when it gets too hot for you, as last time? *" ...we all need to find ways to promote the hobby..." *I thought that was *your job ?? *Want *me *to 'help'? Send me a paycheck now and again. Like you doubtlessly get every week.

I have no *'evolving needs.' I *can build anything I set my mind to. Or, *I* can do without.

And that last, Mr. Ames, should worry you. Except, you don't have to worry.

Now that your PR post for the week has filled your worktime, you can have a good weekend.

Les Whitaker 

Stan Ames 
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Ecoclimber on 06/04/2009 9:04 PM
My first post here

//// Hi, Ec, welcome to the board!











but I was just wondering whether this hobby will survive the recession. With less discretionary money available and the younger generation engrained into online games,

/// I think your generalizations are unreflective of the actual situation. Certainly there is less discretionary income (wait until the ecology-driven legislation kicks in, then you'll see lack of 'discretionary money'.)

do you think this hobby will survive?

/// I have no idea. As a first poster, I'm impelled to wonder why you're concerned? Might you elaborate? I can tell you it will with me, because I make what I need from materials to hand, it will survive, but perhaps not as presently advertised in the hobby mags.

Factor in the fact that the major manufacturers, Aristo, USA Trains, Bachmann, Accucraft etc. are not only suffering cash flow issues but people are going to EBay to buy thier items instead of the traditional hobby shop since the prices they buy them for are well below what most retail, online and discount hobby shops can sell them and still make a profit.

/// I'm unaware of the accuracy of many of your embedded assumptions, but I see, overall, not a thing wrong with going to Ebay for 'deals'. Do that more than a few times and you'll see the 'tare' involved in dealing wtih Ebay: broken stuff received due to poor packaging, items not as described, and general 'static' in doing business by remote.

I notice a ton of hobby shops closing their stores across the country and there is an excess of inventory out there.

/// How do you know this?

Manufacturers are leary in offering anything new in production if they can't sell what they have and have to slash prices to keep the cash flowing in.

/// Sucks to be them, huh?









Do you think all the items that are being constanly sold on EBay is undermining the retailer to the point where the industry will just simply collapse because there is no demand?

/// No, because just a little forward thinking will enlighten you to the fact that, if the manufacturers don't produce, the people on Ebay soon won't have trains to sell.

Les


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Here we go again the Stanley basher's are out and about AGAIN! ( I have nothing for or against Stanley Ames) but do get tired of everytime he posts you guy's always jump on him negatively!!! and try to pick him apart! Can't we all just get along??? LOL You guy's ever heard of making do with what you have or just refining what you have with upgrades, or just little improvements that do not cost a lot of money to accomplish. I believe the economy is a big factor in any hobby. Nobody is spending alot of money or at least any more than they have to, or can afford. I am not buying anything! The bad economy along with a whole lot of other issues have fallen upon me since about 2003. I just try to make do with what I have or trade several things for one thing I want or sell something to buy something else at a good price. As far as buying any major purchases, that time for me I think is long gone, and I will just try to do little improvements on my railroad with what I have or can make!! Going to concentrate on cutting down my inventory to just what I want to keep, or run, and concentrate on landscaping or just little buildings storefronts and such. The Regal


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Yes, the hobby will survive. It will survive because of parents who buy their kids the cheap holidaze sets, a few of which will be mounted to plywood tables in a spare room or corner of the garage once the holidaze are done with and expanded from there. It will survive because older people who have the time but find themselves lacking the energy for outside atheletics will take it up. Some companies will cater to one market, some to both, and some simply won't have a clue and go out of biz. The smarter ones will make the 'cheap and durable' stuff that can handle the tight curves: denounce it if you will, but it is a place to start.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06/05/2009 11:38 AM



I'm convinced a BIG part of these has been the trend toward ever larger equipement and ever wider and larger areas of land needed to accomodate them.

/// I tend to agree with you, because of the situation I found myself forced into: indoors, small space. So I adapted my thinking, taking inspiration from yours and other's scratchbuilds. Not to mention the horrific prices so carefully concealed from newbies w/o access to train shops and uninspired by data gleaned grom seller's sites. (Except Ebay.)

Their has of late been almost no attention paid to the small or medium size layout builder and certainly almost no attention paid to those who still use smaller radius circles.

/// Bingo.

With the demise of LGB there has been few new items to fill this void, Bachamnn being the only exception with their Davenport, which is now coming out as their starter set which is the brightest move I've seen any company make I've seen in a while.

/// I am unaware of this product, as I don't surf the stores, but depend entirely on this site for info on LS. Care to point me at a website? 

the sad truth is, if you want to grow the hobby, we DONT need a K, or Big Boys, or GG1s or Dash 9s that are 3 feet long, we nood light Moguls, Priaries, and Mikes that can be run on at least 5' diameter curves (I'd prefer R1s)

/// As would I: to include critters (steam, natch) but Porters and all the wonderful swivelling truck engines Ralph Brades knows of.


the fact that by requiring 8' diameters as an almost necessary entry to the hobby (at least thats what I read moslty to newbie inquiries) we are automaticly risking excluding those (like me) without sufficient real estate to build an outdoor layout around these enormous curves.

/// Include me, if you want such company. I'm indoors, and will stay so until either my health improves enough to let me run a single, experimental line in the waste end of my backyard, or I just die and go away. The challenges fascinate me.

I nearly choked when some one asked about building an indoor around the ceiling layout in a 10' x 11' room and someone suggested he needed, you guessd it, 8' diamter curves! like R1 & R2 were alien entities that did not exist. Now sure someones going to point out that with R1s and R2s your rolling stock will be more limited, true, but whos fault is that, yep manufacturers, who like GM and Chrysler, got sucked into the "bigger is better" mindset and began giving us ever bigger models for a ever smaller segment of the hobby while ignoring the wider larger market of those who may be interested but have smaller yards.

/// Eeeehhhh .... I gotta take a tad of exception, here. After all--in my mind but there are others--you showed the way to small, handbuilt RS that would work, and was plausible, for a short, short radii layout inside. But yes, definitely, I think--no matter how insularly--that there is a HUGE market for short cars. Perhaps even short, two axle cars in RTR. 

It also doesnt help that while getting bigger they've also gotten more expensive over time. not I'm not talking about a $700 K, which is low priced, but when USAs Dockside came out it MSRPed at over $800!! for a switcher? Even with sound thats pricey. 

Mik is right, the TOYTRAIN line was a terrific source for entry level modelers, thats how I got into the hobby thru along with HLWs screaming best deal in large scale, the Mack. LGBs killing off of the line leaves a big hole and few to fill it when it comes to attracting new participants in the hobby. It will interesting to see what the mfrs do to address it, if anything.


/// Indeed, Mik is right. He should be recognized as one of the lone voices of DIY.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 06/05/2009 2:23 PM
Here we go again the Stanley basher's are out and about AGAIN! ( I have nothing for or against Stanley Ames) but do get tired of everytime he posts you guy's always jump on him negatively!!! and try to pick him apart!


/// Regal,

Do you have any background on Mr. Ame's operational techniques? I suggest you run the archives.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By ThinkerT on 06/05/2009 2:32 PM
Yes, the hobby will survive. It will survive because of parents who buy their kids the cheap holidaze sets, a few of which will be mounted to plywood tables in a spare room or corner of the garage once the holidaze are done with and expanded from there. It will survive because older people who have the time but find themselves lacking the energy for outside atheletics will take it up. Some companies will cater to one market, some to both, and some simply won't have a clue and go out of biz. The smarter ones will make the 'cheap and durable' stuff that can handle the tight curves: denounce it if you will, but it is a place to start. 








Thinker:

I dunno if the hobby will survive in the form it now is. But I for one started with a Lionel on a table (which I still remember my dad building to put the thing on) and more than 60 years later, I'm trying to do the same thing, for most of the same reasons you stated.

You hit the nail on the head.

Les


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Les on 06/05/2009 2:43 PM
Posted By blueregal on 06/05/2009 2:23 PM
Here we go again the Stanley basher's are out and about AGAIN! ( I have nothing for or against Stanley Ames) but do get tired of everytime he posts you guy's always jump on him negatively!!! and try to pick him apart!


/// Regal,

Do you have any background on Mr. Ame's operational techniques? I suggest you run the archives.

Les

Les you can suggest anything you like! I don't have a need to know about Stanley's shortfalls or anything else. I run or buy what I want, cause it's MY railroad, and I can do anything I want to, as long as it is legal ok!!!! If you have a problem with the guy go tell him personally ok. Just tired of the Stanley bashing everytime he posts something anywhere. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!!! The Regal


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Les- 
When one lives in one's own little world, one does not care what is outside the fences. 

As far as the rose-coloured views, well, if the "helping" of manufacturers in the future is anything like in the past, we're in a world of hurt. 

I've been watching the thread since it started, but avoided entering it because I knew, for a fact, someone would jump in with a "STANLEY BASHING!" post, and I swore it wouldn't be me they were referring to. 

At least the first time. 

I am still trying to figure out what politic-speak this really means: 
"In my opinion the vast quantity of products we have now is vastly superior to what we had only a few years ago." 

I mean, we're back to various issues we once thought were put to bed......the latest, of course, is motor screws falling out. 
We could discuss gearing, but you know, that would just induce flames, so we won't. 
Same with light-duty wiring to power pickups. 
Same with electrically inverted chuff, headlamp control circuits that won't allow incandescent bulbs, you know, the little things. 

Or, big things like valve gear. 

But, just to satisfy those whose only joy in life is stifling honest, factual discussion, I won't go there. 

Maybe someday folks will refer to me as "a really nice guy".......NOT! 
But, I really gotta ask........what does it mean when "the hobby is stong"? 

(I did an extensive Google search, and could not find a usable refernce to "stong" anywhere).


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Regal wrote:

Just tired of the Stanley bashing everytime he posts something anywhere. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!!! 


Regal:

Here's a free tip: Ignore Stanley bashing posts. You'll feel lots better! 

Les


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking of R1, I just looked over and remembered that my 2-6-2 Roundhouse live steamer runs on R1 curves. Of course, it has that blind center driver..

The future of this hobby is fine for me. There is plenty of stock sitting on shelves right now to satisfy my wants. The problem is I have no cash to buy it, so there it will sit!!

WIthout a really robust starter set, I don't know how much the hobby will attract the younger groups. I destroyed my O gauge Lionel trains (1977-1984). I know some post war stuff was robust, but the trains I got are all long gone. The only one that remains is the LGB starter set. I crashed that Stainz through countless buildings made of blocks, chased the cat through tunnels made with moving boxes and sheets, etc... I had hoped the Piko starter set was going to take up the slack, but sadly, it appears to be too poorly made to be a contender. 

I know lots of folks scoff, but I think one of the possible hopes out there is that silly eggliner starter set. Price point is in the low $100s, and it has that 'cute' factor that mom's like. Plus, it is easy to put on the track. 

Building models? Really?! Patience can be taught?!


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Hard to say for sure. My railroad's indoors too, like Dave's .... no garden involved, and it's never slowed me down. In fact, I'd like to expand outside someday ... and there'd probably STILL not be any gardening involved. 

The only thing that has slowed me down lately is having to pay twice as much for my engines, or nearly so, to have electrical and mechanical problems rectified. I'm getting better at the electrical ones myself, but the mechanical ones are still a challenge; I'm no machinist. 

And, I'm not picking on anyone. I just don't like the problems, and it seems all of the problems lately have the same name associated with them. What I really love is when I take flak from people who declare they don't own the engine in question, and don't plan to ever own the engine in question, for being upset about a problem with it, or the people associated, by their own statements, with the source of the problem. 

I think I've paid enough for my predicament to say something about it without being told to be 'nicer.' I've been as nice as could be expected, and then some. 

I think improved quality, service, and some grasp of what models consumers actually want would work better than threats that it will all go away if we don't start buying lots and lots of whatever they make, regardless of whether it works, resembles a prototype, or fits in with what we want. 

Matthew (OV)


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/05/2009 3:03 PM
Les- 
When one lives in one's own little world, one does not care what is outside the fences. 


/// You don't say?







He posted me offline with a conciliatory tone. Okay, it looks like I'm going to take the hits on this one. (Shrug.) To put my objections to him plainly, when he blew your's and a certain PhD who designs and builds his own engines objections off, I started following the posts with interest. I don't know much, just a lifetime of here 'n there. But I know to respect them as knows how it's done, and them as knows how to make it from calculating the numbers--when the second actually does his own designs.

As far as the rose-coloured views, well, if the "helping" of manufacturers in the future is anything like in the past, we're in a world of hurt.

/// They want help, they can pay me. 

I've been watching the thread since it started, but avoided entering it because I knew, for a fact, someone would jump in with a "STANLEY BASHING!" post, and I swore it wouldn't be me they were referring to.

/// Yeah. Well, bet I catch it from the surface feeders. 

At least the first time. 

I am still trying to figure out what politic-speak this really means: 
"In my opinion the vast quantity of products we have now is vastly superior to what we had only a few years ago." 

I mean, we're back to various issues we once thought were put to bed......the latest, of course, is motor screws falling out. 
We could discuss gearing, but you know, that would just induce flames, so we won't. 
Same with light-duty wiring to power pickups. 
Same with electrically inverted chuff, headlamp control circuits that won't allow incandescent bulbs, you know, the little things. 

Or, big things like valve gear. 

But, just to satisfy those whose only joy in life is stifling honest, factual discussion, I won't go there. 

/// Which is precisely why I posted: I didn't pay money to this site to have someone tell me I can't say what I want to say.


Les


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## Ecoclimber (Jun 5, 2009)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Didn't mean to start a controversy since this was my first ever post in a train forum. When I was youngin, my grandpa use to take me down to the train station to watch the steam engines roll by. This had the same effect as imprinting geese  This was on the East Coast and I also did a lot of traveling as a young lad between Baltimore and New York and use to stand in awe of the rumble of the GG-1 as they roll in. My family always had tiny layout at XMAS as I remember growing up with a Santa Fe Lionel train set. As a teenager, I moved over to HO but never had much of a room for a layout. In my middle years, I collected N scale as I could have the room to have a major layout. But as twilight is beginning to dawn and my eyes fading, I could no longer see the small cars or engines and was deciding on something larger. I debated about going back to HO as I have no room inside the house but I do have a large yard. So I was thinking maybe I could run ON30 outside. G Scale would be great but storage of such large boxed becomes a problem. As I called around to hobby shops that I had normally used in the past, I was surprised they were no longer in business for they had been in business for many years. So I was concern whether to invest in the more expensive G Scale Trains if like LGB, they will end up bankruptcy. It seems the collectibility that once was in Large Trains has diminish as it did in N Scale as I lost quite a lot of money collecting MicroTrain cars. At one time a particular pack that had been discountinued would go as high as $450 and now you are lucky to sell it for $34. All the trains stores in my area except for one are gone, and I remember the owner saying that could at the zenith of N Scale his collection could fund their children's education with their collection of Microtrain cars. So I was trying to figure out what would be the best move for me now as I sell my N Scale since my eyesight is so poor, I can't see the cars. Should I move into ON30 and investigate whether I can run them outside as well as inside or move into G Scale. Maybe MTH 1/32nd Scale but it seems they do not produce many pieces in the roadname that I model in. 

I am wondering how Accucraft is able to find a market for their products in this economy? I was just curious that's all before I take the plunge?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Ecoclimber on 06/05/2009 3:30 PM
Didn't mean to start a controversy since this was my first ever post in a train forum. When I was youngin, my grandpa use to take me down to the train station to watch the steam engines roll by. This had the same effect as imprinting geese  This was on the East Coast and I also did a lot of traveling as a young lad between Baltimore and New York and use to stand in awe of the rumble of the GG-1 as they roll in. My family always had tiny layout at XMAS as I remember growing up with a Santa Fe Lionel train set. As a teenager, I moved over to HO but never had much of a room for a layout. In my middle years, I collected N scale as I could have the room to have a major layout. But as twilight is beginning to dawn and my eyes fading, I could no longer see the small cars or engines and was deciding on something larger. I debated about going back to HO as I have no room inside the house but I do have a large yard. So I was thinking maybe I could run ON30 outside. G Scale would be great but storage of such large boxed becomes a problem. As I called around to hobby shops that I had normally used in the past, I was surprised they were no longer in business for they had been in business for many years. So I was concern whether to invest in the more expensive G Scale Trains if like LGB, they will end up bankruptcy. It seems the collectibility that once was in Large Trains has diminish as it did in N Scale as I lost quite a lot of money collecting MicroTrain cars. At one time a particular pack that had been discountinued would go as high as $450 and now you are lucky to sell it for $34. All the trains stores in my area except for one are gone, and I remember the owner saying that could at the zenith of N Scale his collection could fund their children's education with their collection of Microtrain cars. So I was trying to figure out what would be the best move for me now as I sell my N Scale since my eyesight is so poor, I can't see the cars. Should I move into ON30 and investigate whether I can run them outside as well as inside or move into G Scale. Maybe MTH 1/32nd Scale but it seems they do not produce many pieces in the roadname that I model in. 

I am wondering how Accucraft is able to find a market for their products in this economy? I was just curious that's all before I take the plunge?




Hello Ecoclimber and Welcome to this spirited forum as you can see. Lots of opinions and it is here where I gleam much information from the masters at play here. Do not fear them and don't be shy to challenge. I get beat up all the time and I come back for more. 

Now a few comments: 


I too grew up in E Canada and yes my father had an electric train set (o-scale) I think. I destroyed it. 

My dad took me down the street to see the last passenger train run through town in circa 1961. I also witnessed the ripping up of the tracks. These events I remember despite being a young 6 years of age. 


There are no G-scale dealers in my area. I shop "internationally" for my stuff. It does not bother me. 

I get great satisfaction with G-scale and my preference is 1:32 ( 1:29 is ok too ) . HOWEVER for pre 1900 stuff and locos I need to go 1:20 etc. These comments take me to certain manufacturers and my base fleet is being developed around MTH. 



Again, welcome and don't be shy to ham it up...











gg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Eco,

My apologies if I came off a tad harsh. It just happened that some of the questions you posed are a hot topic on this board.

I too am aging. I understand your concerns. That is exactly why I ended up in G gauge--because I could see it! I'm also a DIY'er, and like the idea of scratchbuilding. When I realized the prices of LS stuff, I was really glad I liked scratch.

FWIW, I wouldn't buy a thing anymore with the idea of it increasing in value. (Useful firearms excepted.)

I was going to do outdoors, then my health went really bad, so I'm trying to set up something indoors.

Then brass track went through the roof. So I decided to go with wooden strap-iron rail (courtesy of a suggestion from someone on this board) and that's where I'm at. No train up yet. A headful of plans.

But high prices? Forget it. I'll build stuff.

Les


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Ecoclimber on 06/05/2009 3:30 PM
Didn't mean to start a controversy since this was my first ever post in a train forum. 


You just provided a needed opportunity for a whole lot of folks to vent towards the Father of Repression in the hobby.
Gotta do it his way (and he will make sure the necessary equipment comes factory installed) or get into another hobby.

I wonder if he will show up at the Botch.....err.....Bachmann booth at the BTS?

That might just make the local news.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Any decline/drop-out in the hobby that I've seen has been due to two factors: 

1) The ever increasing "critical, rivet counting effect" of smaller gauge guys that have migrated into largescale is putting off a lot of people who got into garden railways to escape the said effect and just have fun. With the demise of LGB, and constant bickering over exact scale this is only going to get worse. I don't care what anyone says, but running trains in the garden is NOT the same as prototypical operation on indoor or outdoor layouts--they are almost two different hobbies that people (and manufacturers) are trying to ram into one. In fact there are almost three distinct segments if you also throw in the raised track live steam 100mph guys. So when you say the future of large scale trains, I think that the segment most in danger of disappearing is the fun loving "go pound salt if you don't like it my way" types, which are the very types that are most likely to attract the newcomers into the hobby! They are the ones who run trains on Sundays for passers-by, who rely on solid, run-all-day trains like LGB used to produce, and who are typically the least technical of the bunch. 

2) The lack of durable, trouble free trains. Again, with the demise of LGB it certainly does NOT seem to be improving from what I've seen. Many just don't have the time and energy to deal with a fleet of trains that need constant repairs because of crap design and construction. Manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot if they continue cheaping out on wiring and drivetrains to maximize short term profit. Only when they make trains that can easily be rebuilt over and over again (and easily) and they eventually develop a reputation for durability will the hobby continue to grow. Otherwise people eventually get fed up and end up with a box of junk in the basement. I'm seeing it happen in our club, and it ain't pretty. 

Keith


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

1) is not a problem. 
You just have to tell the rivet counters to PIXX OFF! 

Gotta sign posted in my shop......."No Nit-picking". 

Crazy. 

The big issue is the drop in QC while the list price goes through the roof. 

Same stuff happened with H0.......Varney was bought by what, Life-Like, and it wasn't Varney anymore. 
Mantua became TYCO, owned by some conglomerate, some folks couldn't tell the difference, except, Mantua steamers had insert axle bearings. 
TYCO changed the tooling to have the axles ride on the pot metal chassis. 
No more replacing bearings when they wear out. 

I've got a 1957 Athearn dual-geared Geep. 
Metal trucks, screwed together with 2-56 screws, oil lite bearings......then they went to snap-together plastic trucks, and you could hear them coming. 

The real problem of late is that manufacturers only seemed to move in a confrontational environment, screaming and kicking all the way. 
But, they moved. 

Working "within the system" has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that NOTHING gets done when you become part of the good old boy network.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I suppose I should add that #1 applies to new items. 
To satisfy the more discriminating modeler, it should be prototypically correct (Mallet, not a Meyer) and TO scale. 
The ones who don't care, won't care. 
Those who do, will be happy. 

EVERYONE wants it to run right, forever, and not have to pick parts up behind it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Stan Ames is a member of MLS. As such, he is entitled to the same courtesy as any other member, and the same protection against flames and personal attacks as any other member. It was one thing during the infamous "supersocket debate" - he was at its heart and the issue had very real impacts upon all of us ('cepting us live steam guys  ). However, it's quite another thing to drag it into thread after thread month after month that have little or no bearing on that issue. Enough please gentlemen, in the interests of fairness. It's been beaten to death. Please move on and let it RIP.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 06/05/2009 5:12 PM
Stan Ames is a member of MLS. Enough please gentlemen. It's been beaten to death. Please move on and let it RIP.


AMEN!

Wouldn't have come up if we hadn't had that post #4.


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## Ecoclimber (Jun 5, 2009)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

The lack of durable, trouble free trains. Again, with the demise of LGB it certainly does NOT seem to be improving from what I've seen. Many just don't have the time and energy to deal with a fleet of trains that need constant repairs because of crap design and construction. Manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot if they continue cheaping out on wiring and drivetrains to maximize short term profit. Only when they make trains that can easily be rebuilt over and over again (and easily) and they eventually develop a reputation for durability will the hobby continue to grow. Otherwise people eventually get fed up and end up with a box of junk in the basement. I'm seeing it happen in our club, and it ain't pretty. 


Which is the most trouble free brand with durability, spare parts and good customer service....MTH, Aristo, USA Trains, Bachmann Spectrum, Others? 

I think I dropped into a forum where there are some issues which I didn't intend to generate. Don't mean to stir anything up or cause any controversy, just trying to get some info from those that know something about this scale. Yikes!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*USA trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on







*


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/05/2009 6:07 PM
*USA trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on







* 

In fear of changing the topic completely: Agreed!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ecoclimber on 06/05/2009 5:57 PM
The lack of durable, trouble free trains. Again, with the demise of LGB it certainly does NOT seem to be improving from what I've seen. Many just don't have the time and energy to deal with a fleet of trains that need constant repairs because of crap design and construction. Manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot if they continue cheaping out on wiring and drivetrains to maximize short term profit. Only when they make trains that can easily be rebuilt over and over again (and easily) and they eventually develop a reputation for durability will the hobby continue to grow. Otherwise people eventually get fed up and end up with a box of junk in the basement. I'm seeing it happen in our club, and it ain't pretty. 


Which is the most trouble free brand with durability, spare parts and good customer service....MTH, Aristo, USA Trains, Bachmann Spectrum, Others? 

I think I dropped into a forum where there are some issues which I didn't intend to generate. Don't mean to stir anything up or cause any controversy, just trying to get some info from those that know something about this scale. Yikes!


Aster!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lathroum on 06/05/2009 10:38 AM
I have a bunch of Lehmann Toy Train stuff...

I hardly run it 'cept at Christmas time around the tree...

I'd rather have the larger stuff with the Fiddly Bits... to go with my other larger stuff with fiddly bits...

Wanna trade?

Philip


WHATCHA GOTS AN HOW MUCH YA WANTS FER IT?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By dawinter on 06/05/2009 6:21 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/05/2009 6:07 PM
*USA trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on







* 

In fear of changing the topic completely: Agreed!











MTH trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on and in fear of changing the topic completely: Agreed!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/05/2009 7:01 PM
Posted By dawinter on 06/05/2009 6:21 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/05/2009 6:07 PM
*USA trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on







* 

In fear of changing the topic completely: Agreed!











MTH trains by far, thats why you dont see too many post about there stuff, it just keeps on keepin on and in fear of changing the topic completely: Agreed!
























ooooooooo Snap......


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

LOL Nick... 

Need to sign off ... 

My son is graduating tomorrow and I have a party to go to.... I will take this forum humor and share it with fellow people... 


Thanks

PS: Semper is quiet.... miss his errant locos... 


gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Ecoclimber on 06/05/2009 5:57 PM

The lack of durable, trouble free trains. Again, with the demise of LGB it certainly does NOT seem to be improving from what I've seen. Many just don't have the time and energy to deal with a fleet of trains that need constant repairs because of crap design and construction. Manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot if they continue cheaping out on wiring and drivetrains to maximize short term profit. Only when they make trains that can easily be rebuilt over and over again (and easily) and they eventually develop a reputation for durability will the hobby continue to grow. Otherwise people eventually get fed up and end up with a box of junk in the basement. I'm seeing it happen in our club, and it ain't pretty. 


Which is the most trouble free brand with durability, spare parts and good customer service....MTH, Aristo, USA Trains, Bachmann Spectrum, Others? 

I think I dropped into a forum where there are some issues which I didn't intend to generate. Don't mean to stir anything up or cause any controversy, just trying to get some info from those that know something about this scale. Yikes








*OOOOOO Dont be afraid of stirring the pot, were a diverse group here. you have your Kool Aiders, Your Power Players, the Battery Boys and the Steamin Demons. so dont ever be affraid to speek your mind, you will get an answer weather you like it or not... HE HE HE*


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree USA trains makes top notch stuff and it is a bit more expensive for some items. I personally own a lot of MTH and Aristo.

In the end I think the truth is that each mfg has had issues with certain models, some still have issues with certain models.

Specific example items:
- Aristocraft has issues with their Mikado ($300 engine) and Mallet ($450 engine) motorblocks. The quartering isn't right and it leads to driveline binding that causes the engine to not run smoothly. Because of the way the axle and wheel design is, the binding can eventually lead to the drivers coming loose and spinning on the end of the axle, locking the drive train. I've converted around 11 Mallets & Mikdaos and every motorblock has had some sort of binding that I had to fix. When corrected they run reliably from then on. The drive train is such that it should prove durable over the life of ownership. For the most part, their diesels seem to run pretty reliably, but did have some issues with their 3 axle motor block at one point.
- MTH had a number of issues with their Big Boy ($1000 engine) that were potential points of risk to cause problems and some did have some quartering issues. With their most recent release of the Triplex they seemed to have corrected all the issues. MTH uses all metal gears so they are very durable and are built to last.
- USA Trains Big Boy seemed to have some wiring issues that in my case led to a serious internal short and the engine went up in smoke. (see video on my website to see what I mean) The replacement engine ran fine and extremely smoothly. No quartering issues at all and they have all metal gears I believe for durability. 
- Accucraft had issues with their GS-4 Daylights ($3000 engine) with some engines having drive train binding (dipping U joint) that caused them to not run smoothly. Don't now how pervasive the problem was but I discussed it with more than one owner. My original engine ran fine but a replacement sent to me had this issue.
- Bachmann has issues with the plastic main axle gear splitting at least on their 2-8-0s. I read about this and then saw this on the first engine I ever converted to DCS. It was brand new and the gear already had cracks. I own Bachmann Annies (2-6-0s) and they seem to run very reliably. 

I could go on specifying certain issues with certain models. Many other models don't seem to have many if any issues at all. In the end if you encounter a problem you are faced with the same bottom line decision... how badly do you want this model running on your layout? If you give up and don't see the problem through to it's resolution, you end up with forever not having that model (that you may really want) running on your layout. If you stick it out, you are usually rewarded for your patience by having an engine that doesn't ever give you any more problems.

You pretty much get what you pay for in this scale just as with anything else. 

A USA Big Boy will run you $3200 but you will get unmatched detail and all metal construction. An MTH Big Boy will set you back only $1000 but it's a bit smaller in 1:32 scale and has a plastic body (w/metal frame) and has less detail.(Still looks very good, see my website for photos) An Aristocraft Mallet will cost you $450 but does not have it's drivers painted black and some would say has a less refined detail than the MTH Big Boy, but it is still an excellent looking model and you get the larger 1:29 size. (have pictures of those too) That said, I own examples of each of these models and like and enjoy them all. For what I paid for them I feel I got my moneys worth and the things I just pointed out about plastic body, lower detail etc actually have positives and negatives to each so it's important that you see them each for yourself and decide what you like best. I think it's important to keep from developing an initial black and white perspective on anything until you do your own research and reading.

As far as spare parts I can't speak to USA trains, but Aristo and MTH seem to have descent stocks of parts. MTH keeps tighter hold on some of the larger parts such as boiler shells etc and don't think they sell those for kitbashing where as aristocraft may be more apt to sell certain parts good for kitbashing.

In the end: 

-USA Trains just plain makes beautifully made stuff. (All metal steam engines with incredible detail, all metal passenger cars, finely detailed rolling stock)
-MTH is I think a great product at an intermediate price point. Not as expensive as USA but still have durability in drivetrains etc still with excellent detail. not as detailed as say USA Trains, but still has a lot of bang for the buck.(Half the stuff I own is from MTH)
-Aristocraft has some products at a very low price point (particularly steam engines) which provides a great value. Some items like their Dash-9s (while I think they are a little high on the trucks) are very detailed and compare well with other diesels on the market. 

Anyways, there is alot to be said on this so I would suggest you do some searches and reading of what others thinkd. If you want a lot of detail pics, I have a bunch of the stuff I own I my website. (note I dont have many pics of the triplexes posted yet)

Good luck.


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ecoclimber: I was replying to your post by the way.

Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Raymond, we can use you up here in Canada. 

This in our political system. 

Can you move and do you believe in the middle right?


gg


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I run Aristocraft, USA TRAINS, and some LGB...

I have never had any problems... 'cept the lights went out in my RS3... I sent it back, and it was fixed in a week...

I had a USA Trains GP7/9 with no lights... I didn't feel like shipping it, so I took it apart, and a wire was pinched... I spliced it and fixed it...

My LGB stuff runs fine, I just don't like the looks of it... I do have an 0-4-0 with a stripped gear...

I had some Bachmann stuff... and all of it died on the tracks... split and stripped gears...
so no more B'Mann for me...I did keep a few passenger cars 'casue the size is good for my indoor layout...

I will Stick with Aristo and USA from here on out...

I've never seen the Aristo problems everyone speaks of... 'course I only have 6.5' Diam curves inside, so I run the smaller stuff...
RS3, U25B, FA, PACIFIC, CRITTER, 0-4-0

FROM USA I have the
GP38, GP7/9 and the NW2

The only LGB I regularly run is my 2-4-0

take it for what its worth... people with bad experiences usually speak louder...


Philip


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Les you asked 
I am unaware of this product, as I don't surf the stores, but depend entirely on this site for info on LS. Care to point me at a website? 


http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3153 

Its in next years catalog, no pics on the website yet but there is a listing for it. two versions, a mining set and a lumber set. 

Aristo has upped the ante on there starter sets by including a Basic Train Engineer R/C controler, another really good move


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Interesting note for those who thought my choice was wrong: We went to the TCA Toy Train Museum today, since it was raining cats n dogs. They have a display of Large Scale trains. There was wall full of stuff from most of the major manufacturers. BUT, even though Philly is kind of not very far away, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the LS running display pieces were from that bankrupt German company. Red box snobs? Corporate donation? Or maybe they simply wanted trouble free operation guaranteed? 99% of other commercial layouts ever I've seen (that actually get run day in day out) chose that same motive power as well. 

But I suppose had they made stuff that wore out or broke sooner, then maybe they might have sold enough volume to stay in business?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

My input into this discussion is small, just like my railroad. It consists of a double track, raised off the ground so that a. our wheelchair-user daughter can play with HER daughter and trains, and b. I don't rupture myself lifting heavy locos on and off it. Since our backyard is only 29 feet across and 35 feet long, the track is two concentric circles - 25 and 24 feet in diameter. That configuration allows us to run trains that are always 'coming around the bend' - the best view of any train, IMO - to to trial out live steamers when we can in a continuous but small and easy to chase track. 

Beginning with LS back in 1968, we have stuff by every popular maker except Lionel - for some reason it never got to the UK. So we have a gazillion scales, too, in fact, everything except 7/8th - but I'm working on that this year. 

As for the affording of it, well, apart from my finances being pretty personal, we have lived all our 38 years of married life without any debt at all, and continue to do so now that I have left the Army way behind me. I have two military pensions to help me out as well. As some of you know [to your cost], I work much of the time in Japan, but spend as much time as is possible in Canada with the rest of my family, and in the PNW with my adopted families, G*d Bless them all. I neither drink nor smoke, and our social life is pretty much restricted by the distance between us all - 6000 miles for a cup of coffee and a slice of marionberry pie is a bit much, I think you'd agree. 

Sure, I'm envious of those of you with humungous layouts, who wouldn't be and still be human? But I have what I have, and over here I get the chance to strut my stuff on at least three wondrous tracks - mainline131, squmus and Geoff Calver, take a bow and a million thanks to you. 

Sadly, there seems to be something of a superiority complex overtaking some folks here and it is costing this site dearly. Kormsen, down there in deepest Paraguay, a man of infinite imagination and innovation, and not a lot of $$$, has been put off by the air of 'trains by checkbook' that pervades many posts, and his going is a great loss to those of with big eyes but small pockets. 

Another great loss this year was the incredibly talented Peter Jones, called home to the depot a couple of months back. His wit, wisdom and eternal optimism as well as skill will be missed greatly by any and all who model the smaller railways. 

My view is simple - do what you can with what you can. Improve when you can afford it, by any means, even if it's something as simple and cheap to accomplish as a paint-job on a second-hand car from a yard-sale. 

Enjoy it all. 

This is all there is. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I have followed this thread with interest and have a couple of thoughts on the subject. My interest is mainly in Colo. narrow gauge and I have models in scales ranging from 1:24 up to 1:20.3 but recently I have gone exclusively Fn3 (1:20.3) I like to think I am representative of a large percentage of large scalers that started out with a mixture of "whatever" and ran what we had. As I matured in this hobby I did more research and I refined my tastes. I am not a rivet counter in the traditional sense but I _have_ focused my interests. 

Lately, I have begun to find an incredible satisfaction in building my own structures and assembling kits. I have also enjoyed "bashing" various locomotives. Like most people here, I am in awe of the work that the "Master Modelers" display and (to be truthful) I was somewhat intimidated! Part of the problem was that the manufacturers are giving us some really nicely detailed rolling stock! Why go to the trouble of scratchbuilding something when Bachmann or Accucraft is coming out with it in incredible detail? All it really takes is $$$ or sometimes $$$$$$! Of course, _there_ is the problem! I'm no multi-millionaire and some of these items are almost the cost of a used car!

This is going to sound bad but Kormsen has made a bad decision. Quite simply, he "threw out the baby with the bathwater." So he feels like MLS isn't what he'd thought it was and that too many of us here are into the "pricey stuff" and that we don't seem to care about doing something inexpensively. (Sigh*) That's a reason to leave?!! What about comaraderie? What about seeing what others are doing? What about the new people that are just getting into the hobby? (Yes, there _are_ people that want to get into our hobby!) What about the technical tips? Kormsen appears to not see it the same way I do and that's fine but it's also a shame. He had a lot to contribute to this forum and I always read his posts.

Why bring up Kormsen's departure from MLS? Because his attitude is not unique in large scale! As the hobby matures it becomes more refined. More items are offered OTB and ready to be run. The incentive to build your own locomotive or rolling stock is diminishing. This is not to say that it's dying but that it's _evolving_ into something different. Not neccessarily better or worse but different....a new generation! However, there are those that, because of their situation, still do things the old way and _that's okay!_ There isn't any right or wrong way!! I submit though that, whatever way you enjoy the hobby, it is better to do it in the company of others than by yourself.

The one thing that has always stunted the growth of large scale has been it's price. How many pieces of rolling stock could you buy in HO for the cost of just one Accucraft brass San Juan coach?We're one step below the ride-on Live Steamers and those are becoming few and far between! Expense has been our bane but it might also become the impetus for a "rennaissance" in our hobby! Years ago we bashed and scratchbuilt nearly everything because virtually nothing was commercially available. That is no longer the case but now, the items are becoming so expensive that it is the same as if they were never made! A difference that makes no difference _is_ no difference! I see our hobby evolving back to where many of us actually _build_ our stuff rather than just buy and run. The difference will be that, due to the plethora of detail, electronic, and specialty aftermarket items now available to us, we will be able to do things that we only dreamed about as little as 10 years ago! 

Getting there is proving to be somewhat "rough going" but it _will _happen. At least I hope it does!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Tac posted:

Posted By tacfoley on 06/06/2009 7:07 AM
My input into this discussion is small, just like my railroad.


Sure, I'm envious of those of you with humungous layouts, who wouldn't be and still be human? But I have what I have, and over here I get the chance to strut my stuff on at least three wondrous tracks - mainline131, squmus and Geoff Calver, take a bow and a million thanks to you. 

/// I'm not. When I consider the outlay in money, labor and time to build and maintain one of those things, I'm not envious at all. Certainly, there are some on this board who can afford to hire it all done, and that's just the way it is. Only in one or two cases do these kind feel they have to thow it in our faces, and they are just the thorns of life.

Sadly, there seems to be something of a superiority complex overtaking some folks here and it is costing this site dearly. Kormsen, down there in deepest Paraguay, a man of infinite imagination and innovation, and not a lot of $$$, has been put off by the air of 'trains by checkbook' that pervades many posts, and his going is a great loss to those of with big eyes but small pockets.

/// I am very, very sad that Korm has elected to leave. I'll miss him, for one. I tend to agree with his assessment of the direction this board seems to be going, however. It may be a reflection of the hobby, or it may be just a phase the board is passing through. I'm not networked enough to express an opinion. If it is true that the 'hits' are growing, it might be because of the nuts 'n bolts tech help to be had here. With the end of the small, inexpensive starter sets, the hobby _may_ contract due to lack of beginners.

/// This, to me, is so needless. There are all kinds of cheap toy trains that can be adapted, either in parts or by adding detail. But immediately, cries of 'cheap', 'toylike', etc arise. There are more RTR folk than builders, and _in my opinion_, they are louder. If anything, a split might occur where the RTR guys go one way and the builders go another, though this board has enough forums to accommodate almost everyone. 

Another great loss this year was the incredibly talented Peter Jones, called home to the depot a couple of months back. His wit, wisdom and eternal optimism as well as skill will be missed greatly by any and all who model the smaller railways.

/// Yes, a truly great light went dark. He was this generation's John Allen, perhaps. 

My view is simple - do what you can with what you can. Improve when you can afford it, by any means, even if it's something as simple and cheap to accomplish as a paint-job on a second-hand car from a yard-sale. 

Enjoy it all. 

This is all there is. 

/// That too is my take. But it appears that few people want (or are forced by circumstances) to approach the hobby from a modest direction. As for The Loud Rich, there are social strata in every human organization. That will be with us always.

Les
tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I feel the hobby has an ebb and flow to it. Given the situation overall, economics included, I think we are seeing a sort of Darwinian effect taking place. Manufacturers/retailers struggling to get by, often at the expense of the consumer (and quality), and members adapting to their own situations. 

The hobby is not going away, we all know that. It may not evolve exactly into each of us would prefer, but it will be close enough for my taste. We will also lose members, as well as gain some. 

I try and browse threads every day. There is a wealth of information here. We have some incredibly talented people frequenting this site, that I can not thank enough for the information they provide. There are others who offer distractions and humor, which may, or may not have a place in the threads. Bottom line is, I respect our freedom of speech and expression here. Thus, I will read what a "rivet counter," DCC, battery mafioso, steamaholic, or reformed baby scaler has posted with interest. 

I try and separate what may be personal biases from opinions and discount the squabbles from what I feel is the meaningful information. I would not want another member to leave on my account due to something I have posted, nor would I leave based on another's post. 

I want to build my layout and run trains. I may violate some principals of operation and cross lines of scale, but if it puts a smile on my face or that of friends and family, then I have accomplished what I set out to do. 

I want to be here and I want the hobby to be here. It will survive, one way or another, and I will have my trains running. 

I love this hobby and I like you guys too. 

Fil


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve Stockman posted:

"The one thing that has always stunted the growth of large scale has been it's price. How many pieces of rolling stock could you buy in HO for the cost of just one Accucraft brass San Juan coach?We're one step below the ride-on Live Steamers and those are becoming few and far between! Expense has been our bane but it might also become the impetus for a "rennaissance" in our hobby! Years ago we bashed and scratchbuilt nearly everything because virtually nothing was commercially available. That is no longer the case but now, the items are becoming so expensive that it is the same as if they were never made! A difference that makes no difference _is_ no difference! I see our hobby evolving back to where many of us actually _build_ our stuff rather than just buy and run. The difference will be that, due to the plethora of detail, electronic, and specialty aftermarket items now available to us, we will be able to do things that we only dreamed about as little as 10 years ago!"

Steve,

I agree with you. I sincerely hope your vision is correct. I think it might well prove to be, because of the escalating prices, falling quality and poor customer relations practiced by manufacturers, plus a shaky economy.

This is why I think you might be onto something: everyone refers back to the 'Golden Age' of model railroading. It turns out that, on close inspection, those 'ages' were begun by scratchbuilders with more or less simple tools. These were people with a vision, a sense of humor, and a certain modesty. Once the RTR stuff started appearing, the status shifted from the craftsman to the guy with the fattest wallet. Not all at once. Hobby newsletters became model rr magazines. With a wider advertising outlet, more Mom 'n Pop niche production became available to bridge the gap between the craftsman and the runner. With the economy so uncertain, those who want, will create. And the wheel will turn another revolution.

Les


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## Ecoclimber (Jun 5, 2009)

I WANT TO THANK FOR ALL YOUR INPUT AND INFORMATION, IT WAS GREATLY APPRECIATED. I STILL CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY SOME USA TRAINS CARS CAN BE BOUGHT AT THE SAME PRICE OF MANY OF THE N-SCALE MICROTRAIN CARS. DON'T MATERIALS COUNT FOR SOMETHING? I BELIEVE THAT DIVERSITY OF OPINION AND RESPECTING THAT DIVERSITY IS WHAT MAKES ANY HOBBY FUN TO ENJOY.







THE REAL PURPOSE IS TO ENJOY WHAT YOU LOVE DOING AND IF YOU LOVE DOING IT A CERTAIN WAY AND HAVE FUN DOING THAT WAY, THE MORE POWER TO YOU....HAVE FUN AT IT, THEN THAT'S GREAT. I DON'T BELIEVE FORCING ONES VIEWPOINT ON OTHERS AS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD BE DONE IS CONSTRUCTIVE. IT'S ALL ABOUT SHARING AND BEING INFORMATIVE AND RESPECTING SOME ONE ELSE'S WAY NO MATTER HOW WEIRD WILL ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE TO THE HOBBY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS FOR EACH OF US IS TO HAVE THE FUN AND ENJOYMENT IN DOING IT OUR WAY. WHEN I WAS IN N-SCALE, THERE WERE THE RIVET COUNTERS WHO ONLY WANTED AN ACCURATE PROTOTYPICAL LOOK WHICH I FOUND AMUSING AS I COULDN'T EVEN SEE THE RIVETS ON THE CARS WITH MY EYESIGHT AND I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WANTED SUCH ACCURACY, WHEN THEY RUN THEIR ENGINES AND RAIL CARS LOOKING LIKE THEY CAME OFF AN AUTO DEALER SHOWROOM LOT AFTER BEING DETAILED! LOL MAYBE I SHOULD MOVE TO Z SCALE SO THEN ALL MY ROLLING STOCK WILL DISAPPEAR BEFORE MY EYES. I COULD BUILD A LARGE MAGNIFYING GLASS OVER THE 5 BY 7 INCH LAYOUT. KEEP THE HUMOR AND ENJOY THE HOBBY.

I APPOLOGISE FOR THE LARGE CAPS AS SUDDENLY FOR SOME REASON THE FONTS ARE LIKE 2 POINTS WHCIH I COULDN'T READ AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE THEM LARGER


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Right on Ecoclimber, I completely agree with you.







That's what I think it's all about having fun and enjoying what you have. Keep that attitude and in the end you will be happier person overall because of it.

This scale has really grown the last few years to include an entire new type of engine and equipment that is attracting a whole new group that wouldn't be in the hobby otherwise, so I think Largescale has a bright future. 

On the pricing of N scale, I think Largescale is the one of the first scales up from the smaller ones where you really aren't paying a miniaturization premium. So you really get a lot for the money I think. 

And most of all, welcome to Largescale! This scale of model trains can't be beat.


Raymond


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok... I have waited, and read, and thought, (and then thought some more).... I am the complete outsider in this respect -I do not have any Gauge 1 equipment at all. My equipment is 16mm (SM32) or Gauge '3'. The former is a post WW2 development and the latter is pre WW1. Both have survived and developed with the times. When I started out in 16mm scale most of the stuff -wasn't there. It was almost a de facto scratch builders scale, and what I liked about it, was the freedom that this gave me to build what I wanted, (much to the abject horror of others).... I am now building my locos in Gauge '3' , (much to the abject horror of others)...


Will the large scale locos survive -definately. The WOW factor of a 16mm steam loco pulling wagons and the OMG factor of a Gauge '3' loco simply standing on tracks -will always be there. 

And this hobby ? I KNOW that my son will be asked by his children "Daddy -why do you want to build a Pendolino and a Javelin?"


And he will tell them... 

regards

ralph


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Les wrote "This is why I think you might be onto something: everyone refers back to the 'Golden Age' of model railroading. It turns out that, on close inspection, those 'ages' were begun by scratchbuilders with more or less simple tools."

I don't agree with that at all esp. in O Gauge the "Golden Years" was after WWII when Lionel went from making tinplate lithographed rolling stock & engines to die-cast metal & plastic engines & cars until General Mills took over in the 70's??

Too be honest with you I believe that we're in the "Golden Age" of Large Scale NOW..


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Ah, wait. 
Lionel, in the mid-to-late 60's, went into a tailspin when Cohen was in charge and they did all the Military and Action figures, plus cheapened up the drives (and detail). 

For instance, 2333 and 2343 horizontal motors went to cheaper and cheaper vertical motors, stemers ended up with plastic-boilered, bakelite-motor-housing 2-4-2 Scouts, which were GAR-bage. 

The "Golden Years" did NOT last until the 70's. 

I was heavily involved with operating Lionel stuff for over 40 years. 
Still have ALL of it, and I know which ones to buy and which to avoid.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I did not read all of these but I read Steve's S. And I'd have to say I agree with him all the way. 
I just don't understand throwing the baby out with the bath water ???, don't you just pull the plug???


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Ecoclimber


I tend to agree with Chuck. In my opinion , the "Golden Age" of Large Scale is NOW. When you compare the options we had 10 years ago to the options we have today I think you will agree.


We have our choice of scale, type of prototype, track, control system, layout type, and just about everything else.


True indeed some of the products are expensive but also true there are cost effective products out there and scratch building is available as an option as well.


The problem perhaps is that we all view this hobby differently and sometimes do not have the tolerance of others. For example in you post you mention rivet counters. Yup we have those as well. Heck I just bought some piers and paid extra for rivet detail.
R1 is another difference. Many have space requirements that limit them to smaller radius. They desire locomotives that can operate on their track. Others have larger radius and prefer locomotives that are larger and more prototypically built. Some like to watch their trains run in loops while others are into operations.

This diversity is perhaps one of the greatest aspects of the Large Scale hobby. Just read the posts in this thread and you will see a lot of differences.

When Deb and I visit other Large Scale layouts we are simply amazed at the vast differences out there. I for one think that is great.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I have yet to see convincing evidence that you have to be "rich" to enjoy this hobby. Some of the most enjoyable people I've met in this hobby live very simply. A handful of them are fairly frequent visitors to this site, and I value their inventiveness perhaps more than any other influence. It's their "can do, regardless" spirit that makes me realize I have no real excuse for not doing things that I want to. 

As for the cost of the hobby, I'd be willing to bet that the average amount spent on the model railroading hobby is actually fairly consistent across the scale spectrum. Yeah, our equipment is more expensive than O, HO, or N scale, but we also buy on average less of it. It's not uncommon for an N-scaler to have 50 to 100 locomotives, and literally hundreds of cars. The average large scaler simply doesn't have the space for that kind of equipment, so our collections tend to be far smaller in numbers. As an example, I went to Caboose Hobbies on my lunch break today (what... where do you spend your lunch breaks?  ). A display of San Juan Car Co. On3 cars caught my eye. They had a $75 price tag on them. Two aisles over was a selection of 1:20.3 Accucraft cars (models of the same prototypes) for around $100. How many cars will the average On3 modeler buy compared to the average 1:20.3 modeler? 

Later, 

K


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I think the 'Golden Age' in G is UP TO NOW. 

I think we have been spoilt over the past 5 years as I recall deals of 6 cars or switches were there and worth it. 
$175 LGB full sets were avaiable not to forget $120 toytrain sets. 
A run of Bachmann loggers etc which finaly end up going at clearout prices. 
$60 mining moguls.
$60 center cabs.
$100 Annies.
$15 baggage.
$25 coaches.
$15 Side dumps.
The pre demise LGB clearance (boy was I suspicious of....somehing)
The first run Accucraft all metal Caledonia. 

CRUNCH ! 

LGB Gone 
Brass/track goes up heaps. 
Aristo, Bachmann all gone up. 
Marklin/LGB gone up. 
New player Brawa - gone. 

I'm glad I got most of what I wanted from LGB over the few GOLDEN years. 
The final prices that Marklin have set have made me seriously look at Accucraft lately and now have my first brassy. 
The Brawa is a great deal and a unique oportunity NOW - the rest is history. 
So I am making a final dip in this GOLDEN time NOW and spending up BIG, because I CAN NOW. 
I couldn't justify the expendature to anyone I know - or myself LOL ! 

The bulk closeout deals and the stale but affordable LGB sets are a thing of the past. 
I think the range of new items may slow too. 

I set out for a collection with a rough idea buying at times feeling wreckless, my plan matured and evolved.
I now have most of my scratch/bash needs in the way of many clearance items and have a coheasive collection of models which I am settled with. The rest can't be bought.
I don't need and wont be buying any full price LGB items in the future unless they do something new and tempting which I doubt.
I won't be buying expensive metal models in the future either at least for some time.
I'm done I guess.....untill they tempt me AGAIN, BUT I WANT A DEAL !

I admit it, I love trains and only have so much time to enjoy them so I will NOW ! 

Yes, There is a future for this hobby: It all happens under the knife for now on.

Andrew


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

Good move Bachmann,

This hobby needs newcommers which like myself when starting out was captain skimp.
Good entry level sets that have some prototypical aspect to them rather than insulting short ass rubbish with commercial maccas or whatnot all over are what the 'mature' newbies want.
As they become hooked, they will have the need to feed their desires and spend more ! 

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200810674
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200810675

And for the littlies there will be Thomas and his friends, good move and probably a good mover too.

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200810672
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200810673

It is offerings like these that will ensure the future, fresh blood for the hobby and the retail vampires.
When they become older with a disposable income (very tempory) they can pull all those old molds out and sell it all again.
It is a 20 year cycle thing, the distance between generations.
Just like the song 'Locomotion' wait long enough and it is a new hit.

The hobby can't die, it is immortal but fresh blood is required to keep it stimulated !

Count Andrew 
Transylvanian RR


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 06/06/2009 5:15 PM
Les wrote "This is why I think you might be onto something: everyone refers back to the 'Golden Age' of model railroading. It turns out that, on close inspection, those 'ages' were begun by scratchbuilders with more or less simple tools."

I don't agree with that at all esp. in O Gauge the "Golden Years" was after WWII when Lionel went from making tinplate lithographed rolling stock & engines to die-cast metal & plastic engines & cars until General Mills took over in the 70's??

Too be honest with you I believe that we're in the "Golden Age" of Large Scale NOW..

















I failed to clarify a couple of things: first, I was thinking of _model_ RRing, as opposed to Lionel, which--insofar as I know--not many consider to be 'scale'. I remember seeing my first TT model RR, ca 1955, and was affected enough that more than fifty years have passed and I still remember the 'shock and awe' factor. (I had a Lionel turbine Pennsy set w. a few operating accessories.) Second, I was thinking of the earlier, pre-War O and HO scale attempts (or OO--I'm not sure when those began to be developed.)

I agreed wholeheartedly that Lionel, together w. Am Flyer, created at 'Golden Age' in the immediate postwar era. (There were other, but lesser brands like Marx) but only Am Flyer attempted a nod at 'scale', which is what we discuss around here. I doubt many would disagree that Lionel Standard Gauge is in a class by itself, and that may be what ultimately happens in LS. The affordability factor might kick in and result in enough product to induce collecting, but not survive in basement/outdoor layouts as a beginning buyer's scale (or gauge) of choice.

For example, in my stacks of NMRA bulletins from a couple of years on either side of 1975, one can read of the 'demise' of O scale. HO seemed to be taking over. Yet, now I hear of LS'ers incorporating O _gauge_ into indoor layouts, at least. They also incorporate HO _gauge_, but as tramways, so far as I can tell. 

It's an uncertain thing, to label the present a 'Golden Age'. That's usually best defined by looking back from a future point. 

I hope I've clarified my thinking.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/06/2009 5:56 PM

Curm wrote:

Ah, wait. 
Lionel, in the mid-to-late 60's, went into a tailspin when Cohen was in charge and they did all the Military and Action figures, plus cheapened up the drives (and detail). 

/// When I began collecting heavily in the early 70's, it is my take that about 1959-60 was the last of the good, reliable 'neat' old Lionel O/O27.
Of couse, that doesn't include the high-dollar items. By then they were all bought up, save for the occasional junker at an astronomical price.


For instance, 2333 and 2343 horizontal motors went to cheaper and cheaper vertical motors, stemers ended up with plastic-boilered, bakelite-motor-housing 2-4-2 Scouts, which were GAR-bage.

/// I am still amazed at the longevity of those earlier motors. My Pennsy (671? how soon one forgets) literally had _miles_ on it when I sold my collection.

/// I wrote the above to make a point: what is the (probably) biggest topic of late on the board? QA/QC--or lack thereof. The second biggest? Price. The third, 'Toylike appearance & not enough variety'. What finally sunk Lionel? Poor quality, price and 'exploding boxcars'. (Flinch.)

/// Does anyone see a connection, here? These topics are so old, the fur's wearing off. I see _all _manufacturers (except those savvy Chinese) as having a (US) management structure wholly isolated from the customer. Note GM. Since the introduction of the VW bug, there's been a market for small cars. GM built small cars, but for the 3rd world. Oh, and that deathtrap Corvair. Ford chimed in with the Pinto--exploding fuel tank, no extra charge. I forget Chrysler's scrap-of-meat to the small car market. 

Les

The "Golden Years" did NOT last until the 70's. 

I was heavily involved with operating Lionel stuff for over 40 years. 
Still have ALL of it, and I know which ones to buy and which to avoid.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

K wrote:

" I have yet to see convincing evidence that you have to be "rich" to enjoy this hobby." 

I read all your posts, though I seldom reply as our fundamental RRing intents are so different: EBT re-creation vs a fictional mid-19th century down-at-the-heels SL.

That being said, I think that perhaps Korm's intentions have been extrapolated to a degree beyond what he meant. As I understood him, much of the latest chatter on new equipment has centered on $1,000 - $3,000 locomotives. That is my impression, too. As a SS guy with limited desires (fortunately) those kinds of products are unaffordable by any measure. I suspect they might be unaffordable to a number of others. Yet the board's been full of discussion on them. And, to relatively few folks who actually build things, and especially to those who've not mastered every aspect of the scratchbuilding part of the hobby, it can be off-putting. One can easily conclude, "My freelance outhouse on wheels, which I built rather inexpertly, isn't going to attract much beyond polite attention."

I think that's what Korm was saying, and it is certainly what I'm saying. It's human nature to want to talk about the hottest, latest, top-dollar offering, there's no problem for me, there.

What Kormsen _did_ say was that the board seems to have become high dollar happy. I think that's valid, I think it has, too.

The cure for that is to build and publish. But it takes a lot more time to build an outhouse on wheels than it does to discuss new RTR offerings. So there's an innate tilt that's natural, but the two ends don't seem to coexist very well. That's a reason why I post a 'thank you' to every builder who posts his work. I learn an awfully lot from other's efforts, and I can relate to those, while I have no affinity for the big, expensive stuff.

Les


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

There are those who really can't buy trains due to health and other reasons. 
But there are those who say they can't afford it, but fail to tell of their other hobbies and the fancy car or boat sitting in its own garage. 
There are times I can't afford it, then there are times I work lots of hours and cash flow runs again or something good happens and I buy trains. 
trains is my ONLY hobby. 
And those who can't afford it because they don't want to brake a CD or cash a bond. 
To me can't afford means I have not found any possible way to buy something. 

I've gone w/o snacks and pop at work, not gone out to dinner and used that money on trains. 
If you want sometning bad enough, you'll find a way.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Marty, I think you hit the nail on the head. I have often said that when I hear "I can't afford so and so", what I'm really hearing most of the time is that "After I allocate my finances on item A, I don't have enough left over for item B". And this is okay. I know in my case, I'm like you, I really only have one hobby, trains. The other RVing is sort of in a different class. But we all have to allocate the money we have. Most of us aren't in a position where we can't afford anything (now I'm not talking about those on this forum who have lost their jobs - been there, and that is a DIFFERENT situation!!). It is just what we prefer to spend are available money one.

Ed


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 06/08/2009 8:37 AM
There are those who really can't buy trains due to health and other reasons. 
But there are those who say they can't afford it, but fail to tell of their other hobbies and the fancy car or boat sitting in its own garage. 
There are times I can't afford it, then there are times I work lots of hours and cash flow runs again or something good happens and I buy trains. 
trains is my ONLY hobby. 
And those who can't afford it because they don't want to brake a CD or cash a bond. 
To me can't afford means I have not found any possible way to buy something. 

I've gone w/o snacks and pop at work, not gone out to dinner and used that money on trains. 
If you want sometning bad enough, you'll find a way




AGREED, You have people that want things so they work hard and try to find a way to get them, then you have the cry babys that are mad at people because they have worked hard to get what they wanted while others didnt. NO need to say your sorry or feel bad for having or showing off what you worked hard to get. what cracks me up is people think this **** just falls out of the sky, but some neither have the desire or the will or the brains to figure out how to get what others have. not my problem. i'l let you in on a secret, get a frgin job or two or three like a lot of us have and then you can have your dreams. I'm proud to say my wallets fatter than ****, and i work 7 days a week to keep it that way. i feel no pitty for cry babys... none at all.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/08/2009 8:52 AM
Posted By NTCGRR on 06/08/2009 8:37 AM
There are those who really can't buy trains due to health and other reasons. 
But there are those who say they can't afford it, but fail to tell of their other hobbies and the fancy car or boat sitting in its own garage. 
There are times I can't afford it, then there are times I work lots of hours and cash flow runs again or something good happens and I buy trains. 
trains is my ONLY hobby. 
And those who can't afford it because they don't want to brake a CD or cash a bond. 
To me can't afford means I have not found any possible way to buy something. 

I've gone w/o snacks and pop at work, not gone out to dinner and used that money on trains. 
If you want sometning bad enough, you'll find a way




AGREED, You have people that want things so they work hard and try to find a way to get them, then you have the cry babys that are mad at people because they have worked hard to get what they wanted while others didnt. NO need to say your sorry or feel bad for having or showing off what you worked hard to get. what cracks me up is people think this **** just falls out of the sky, but some neither have the desire or the will or the brains to figure out how to get what others have. not my problem. i'l let you in on a secret, get a frgin job or two or three like a lot of us have and then you can have your dreams. I'm proud to say my wallets fatter than ****, and i work 7 days a week to keep it that way. i feel no pitty for cry babys... none at all.




Nick
The world is far from black and white relative to one's personal obligations. Much more so in today's economy but even in the "good times" there are family obligations, priorities which are much more important than one's hobby (remember hobby is a want not a basic need of life). 

Though I agree with Marty and you on the base concept that nothing is free and one must work to obtain "things" there are limits. Sometimes no matter how hard one works there are situations that will not allow one to "find a way". Otherwise all us hard working individuals could end up with a Ford Daytona coupe which is impossible given that there were only a couple made. Or to put it another way, end up with owning the C &O 614....Life is full of limitations, disappointments and "what if's" that make it a challenge to the "if you want something bad enough...." ideology.



Overall, I want this to be a strong hobby element and not go the way of Lionel Standard gauge but not matter how hard I work and how much I could buy the global market will surely be a stronger factor than my "you'll find a way" attitude for the future of our hobby.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

I'm waiting for Obama to get me an Aster Big Boy.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/08/2009 8:52 AM
AGREED, You have people that want things so they work hard and try to find a way to get them, then you have the cry babys that are mad at people because they have worked hard to get what they wanted while others didnt. NO need to say your sorry or feel bad for having or showing off what you worked hard to get. what cracks me up is people think this **** just falls out of the sky, but some neither have the desire or the will or the brains to figure out how to get what others have. not my problem. i'l let you in on a secret, get a frgin job or two or three like a lot of us have and then you can have your dreams. I'm proud to say my wallets fatter than ****, and i work 7 days a week to keep it that way. i feel no pitty for cry babys... none at all.


THAT, my friend, is EXACTLY attitude that makes people want to kick the poster(s) somewhere it hurts, and leave.....
I HAD enough money (not much, but enough) before I ended up on disability. I didn't ask for the economy to go south and take my home business with it. Now, I'm not whining about not having much anymore, but braggers, especially those who seem to think they are somehow superior, just irritate the H#LL out of me. No, stuff doesn't 'fall from the sky', but people don't ask to be kicked in the teeth by life either. I refuse to accept that YOU are better than me just because you have more money to waste on toys. I'll continue to muddle along and make do on what I have, thank you. And I think I'd rather be that way than have MORE if it means becoming some sort of arrogant snob. (I'd have said something else, but it's a family board) There are some well paid turds in this world (like Paris Hilton, for instance) and poorly reimbursed hardworking saints. Money, or lack thereof does not make a MAN -- unless you are very superficial.


Also, I quite imagine that a 'living wage' in the part of the world where Kormsen lives is probably less money than people waste on coffee and ciggies here, BUT the price of the trains is the same or higher. Try taking the big picture into account before you judge someone else.

If the above sounds harsh, so be it. I CANNOT just 'get another job' due to health reasons. And, frankly, working 7 days a week sounds like a waste of a perfectly good life if all you get for it is lousy money. If YOU are happy, then good for ya! Having time for my kids and family is more important to me. You can judge me lazy all you want, but I pity you. There but for the grace I could be.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Count,

One of the first posts with hard information.

Had those been around a couple of years ago, I'd likely have bought a set and be running by now. Thanks for the hedzup.

Also, being an Ozark hillbilly, some of your slang isn't getting through: Macca? insulting short a** rubbish? (I get the 'rubbish' part) littlies?

Les


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 06/08/2009 9:12 AM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/08/2009 8:52 AM
Posted By NTCGRR on 06/08/2009 8:37 AM
There are those who really can't buy trains due to health and other reasons. 
But there are those who say they can't afford it, but fail to tell of their other hobbies and the fancy car or boat sitting in its own garage. 
There are times I can't afford it, then there are times I work lots of hours and cash flow runs again or something good happens and I buy trains. 
trains is my ONLY hobby. 
And those who can't afford it because they don't want to brake a CD or cash a bond. 
To me can't afford means I have not found any possible way to buy something. 

I've gone w/o snacks and pop at work, not gone out to dinner and used that money on trains. 
If you want sometning bad enough, you'll find a way




AGREED, You have people that want things so they work hard and try to find a way to get them, then you have the cry babys that are mad at people because they have worked hard to get what they wanted while others didnt. NO need to say your sorry or feel bad for having or showing off what you worked hard to get. what cracks me up is people think this **** just falls out of the sky, but some neither have the desire or the will or the brains to figure out how to get what others have. not my problem. i'l let you in on a secret, get a frgin job or two or three like a lot of us have and then you can have your dreams. I'm proud to say my wallets fatter than ****, and i work 7 days a week to keep it that way. i feel no pitty for cry babys... none at all.




Nick
The world is far from black and white relative to one's personal obligations. Much more so in today's economy but even in the "good times" there are family obligations, priorities which are much more important than one's hobby (remember hobby is a want not a basic need of life). 

Though I agree with Marty and you on the base concept that nothing is free and one must work to obtain "things" there are limits. Sometimes no matter how hard one works there are situations that will not allow one to "find a way". Otherwise all us hard working individuals could end up with a Ford Daytona coupe which is impossible given that there were only a couple made. Or to put it another way, end up with owning the C &O 614....Life is full of limitations, disappointments and "what if's" that make it a challenge to the "if you want something bad enough...." ideology.



Overall, I want this to be a strong hobby element and not go the way of Lionel Standard gauge but not matter how hard I work and how much I could buy the global market will surely be a stronger factor than my "you'll find a way" attitude for the future of our hobby.





Heres my point, a few here as of late have been crying about how bad they have how poor they are, this is from there own lips not mine. i stade out of all these threads till one of them said some really stupid things. and then they tried to make others feel bad for working hard for what they have. not my fault there life tuned out the way it did dont blme me because i try to get what i want by working hard for it.final point i dont need to justify to anyone what i have and how i got it but i too put on a blue shirt every day and work hard to have everything i own including ny house new cars and so on and i will be damned if i will let some little cry babys try to make me feel bad for that....everybody can improve there life it just a the matter of weather they have the drive to sucseed or fail. we ALL make our own choice in life and if you made the wrong one thats your problem not mine.
get A job under the table do something to improve yourself if not no pitty from me.. to be honest when i was poor i would never go around braging aboutit, self pitty is a bad thing. now i seem to be middle class and hope i can make it to rich some day and i will do whats needed to get there thrue working hard.....


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Nick posted:

AGREED, You have people that want things so they work hard and try to find a way to get them, then you have the cry babys that are mad at people because they have worked hard to get what they wanted while others didnt. NO need to say your sorry or feel bad for having or showing off what you worked hard to get. what cracks me up is people think this **** just falls out of the sky, but some neither have the desire or the will or the brains to figure out how to get what others have. not my problem. i'l let you in on a secret, get a frgin job or two or three like a lot of us have and then you can have your dreams. I'm proud to say my wallets fatter than ****, and i work 7 days a week to keep it that way. i feel no pitty for cry babys... none at all.

Nick,

The tenor of your post demonstrates what Kormsen was talking about.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If I say "I can't afford X" it's not being a crybaby. I could easily afford just about anything in G scale if I made it a priority, but I generally have other priorities--children, family, job, community--other priorities. It's a shorthand way of saying "it's more than I'm willing to pay." It's a way of talking about priorities. I'm extremely good at what I do for a living, but I picked this career not because it paid a lot, but because it was always interesting and I got control of my work hours. 


I know a lot of people who made things other than money a priority--I know a lot of really excellent musicians, for example, who don't make much dough. Some of them are every bit as good as musicians who are famous, but for whatever reason it didn't go their way. I also know a lot of loudmouths who make money the centerpiece of their lives.  Guess which set of people are more interesting and fun to be with? Not all the time, but a lot of the time. I have a lot more respect for someone who can make something unique than someone who just brags about how much they buy.


If someone complains about trains being expensive, to my mind that does not make them a crybaby. I'm not usually interested in those threads, because as far as I'm concerned they cost what they cost, and there's little I can do about it.  But it seems to me those threads are a way of talking about priorities and looking for community. I'm sorry Kormsen wanted to leave, and I wish him well.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Les wrote* The tenor of your post demonstrates what Kormsen was talking about.. he left in my opionion because he didnt get enough attention like a few others here. when you cant always have it your way, you cry about it and leave with a tude.
theres plenty of room on this forum for everyone, weather you like some people or not, theres plenty of people to talk to here............. so if you cry about how you dont fit in and dont try to and just leave like a child then so be it, DONT LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS ON THE WAY OUT is my motto.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

THAT, my friend, is EXACTLY attitude that makes people want to kick the poster(s) somewhere it hurts, and leave.....
I HAD enough money (not much, but enough) before I ended up on disability. I didn't ask for the economy to go south and take my home business with it. Now, I'm not whining about not having much anymore, but braggers, especially those who seem to think they are somehow superior, just irritate the H#LL out of me. No, stuff doesn't 'fall from the sky', but people don't ask to be kicked in the teeth by life either. I refuse to accept that YOU are better than me just because you have more money to waste on toys. I'll continue to muddle along and make do on what I have, thank you. And I think I'd rather be that way than have MORE if it means becoming some sort of arrogant snob. (I'd have said something else, but it's a family board)


Also, I quite imagine that a 'living wage' in the part of the world where Kormsen lives is probably less money than people waste on coffee and ciggies here, BUT the price of the trains is the same or higher. Try taking the big picture into account before you judge someone else.

If the above sounds harsh, so be it. I CANNOT just 'get another job' due to health reasons. And, frankly, working 7 days a week sounds like a waste of a perfectly good life if all you get for it is lousy money. My kids and family are more important to me.




Mik,

I completely agree with you on your points. Having just been through a layoff situation, it is not as simple as running out and getting 3 jobs. That didn't make sense in my sitution as having 3 jobs would have meant retail and it would not have allowed me the time necessary to research opportunities and follow up with recruiters. Plus, I paid my unemployment taxes all during my working time, why shouldn't I be able to get some benefit from it? Working 3 retail jobs would have made me less money than unemployment, and I would have put my wife and family under a lot of undue stress. 

I still think that simplicity and durability will move the hobby forward. That and Thomas...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*So because i dont have kids or a morgage my way i wrong please.................... we each make our own path thru life and one should not be made to feel bad because of what he has, i sure dont, when someone doesnt have that much i would never make fun of that cause ive been there, unless of course they bring it up, witch is the case here. trying to make others feel bad because of what they have..and i dont take any pitty on those that cry about how other have more than they do. the hobby will keep going fine because there are plenty of people spending $. thats my point. and if people dont spend then the big guys dont make the stuff........ to each there own.... now i need to go to work now to fatten up my wallet as some would say so i can buy some choo choos..............*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Ouch! This thread is getting rough! 

It also has drifted into sort of a bitch session. Several items have been brought up, that sort of address the original question, but the thread drift indicates to me that many people have many DIFFERENT ideas what is "wrong" with the hobby. 

The thing I hate to see is the "my way is right and your way is wrong"... yeah, I'm often billed as the "my way guy".... ok... 

The people on limited incomes are not happy with those on unlimited ones. So people with money get blamed for large locos and wider curves? 

The people with money are not happy with the out of the box quality. Others give them a hard time by not fixing themselves or scratchbuilding? 

The people who CANNOT work are not happy with those people who CAN work one or more jobs or more hours a week? 

The people who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and now are "comfortable" are not happy with those who do not? 

I am not pointing a finger at ANYONE. 

But this thread is getting intolerant of many people. 

At this point in my life, I have a job and can spend a fair number of dollars on what I want. Does that make me look down my nose at those who can't? NO. 

And when my situation changes, and I get more limited, financially or physically or both, I hope people are not telling me that I don't count. 

I don't know what the answer here is except that we all need to APPRECIATE the other guy's situation, and find solutions that, as much as possible, can benefit the LARGEST number of people possible. I think this is a moral and ethical issue. 

OK, off the soap box... 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Greg, keep making sense like that, and we'll make you a moderator!  

Seriously, gentlemen, I think this thread is dangerously close to having run its course. We all come from different walks of life, with different obligations and priorities. None are inherently right or wrong--they're all personal choices. (Like track power, DCC, battery, steam, diesel, ford, chevy, tastes great, less filling...) What started off as an honest discussion has deteriorated into thoughts that verge on personal attacks and outright intolerance. Whatever our lot in life at the moment, it's merely one significan life event away from changing completely. Perhaps we can learn from others' perspectives, so when "it" happens to "us," we'll have a much broader perspective on the world. My suggestion (and at this point it is only a suggestion) is to cool our jets, and realize it's not how we pursue our common hobby that's important, just that we are all pursuing the same hobby. 

Later, 

K


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Amen K. Just the same old blah, blah, blah from those who would rather discuss the BS issues than the hobby itself. 

-Brian


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 06/08/2009 6:59 AM
Posted By Chucks_Trains on 06/06/2009 5:15 PM
Les wrote "This is why I think you might be onto something: everyone refers back to the 'Golden Age' of model railroading. It turns out that, on close inspection, those 'ages' were begun by scratchbuilders with more or less simple tools."

I don't agree with that at all esp. in O Gauge the "Golden Years" was after WWII when Lionel went from making tinplate lithographed rolling stock & engines to die-cast metal & plastic engines & cars until General Mills took over in the 70's??

Too be honest with you I believe that we're in the "Golden Age" of Large Scale NOW..

















I failed to clarify a couple of things: first, I was thinking of _model_ RRing, as opposed to Lionel, which--insofar as I know--not many consider to be 'scale'. I remember seeing my first TT model RR, ca 1955, and was affected enough that more than fifty years have passed and I still remember the 'shock and awe' factor. (I had a Lionel turbine Pennsy set w. a few operating accessories.) Second, I was thinking of the earlier, pre-War O and HO scale attempts (or OO--I'm not sure when those began to be developed.)

I agreed wholeheartedly that Lionel, together w. Am Flyer, created at 'Golden Age' in the immediate postwar era. (There were other, but lesser brands like Marx) but only Am Flyer attempted a nod at 'scale', which is what we discuss around here. I doubt many would disagree that Lionel Standard Gauge is in a class by itself, and that may be what ultimately happens in LS. The affordability factor might kick in and result in enough product to induce collecting, but not survive in basement/outdoor layouts as a beginning buyer's scale (or gauge) of choice.

For example, in my stacks of NMRA bulletins from a couple of years on either side of 1975, one can read of the 'demise' of O scale. HO seemed to be taking over. Yet, now I hear of LS'ers incorporating O _gauge_ into indoor layouts, at least. They also incorporate HO _gauge_, but as tramways, so far as I can tell. 

It's an uncertain thing, to label the present a 'Golden Age'. That's usually best defined by looking back from a future point. 

I hope I've clarified my thinking.

Les

Huh?? Toy like?? The demise of O Scale?? Err uh the O Gauge market is a 50-60 million $$$ a year business. Infact it now encompasses 3 rail high rail, 3 rail scale, 2 rail scale rail, conventional track powered mode, DCC, DCS TMCC and Tinplate Standard Gauge which Lionel & MTH are producing together. 

O Gauge RR Forums


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

AMEN Kevin. Please lock this thread. This blah, blah, blah has been going on for a week. The "horse" is dead! Thank you.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 06/08/2009 12:57 PM
Greg, keep making sense like that, and we'll make you a moderator!







" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wink.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> 


>>>>If Greg becomes a moderator then I'm leaving.
>>>>seroiusly, I don't usually like to get on one of these types of threads , its just that some always takes it way out of context. We all know there are folks with real problems and this web site has helped some of them out. I've been around long enough to know none of us really "need" any more trains. And for some if you really wanted it you could get it.Marty

Seriously, gentlemen, I think this thread is dangerously close to having run its course. We all come from different walks of life, with different obligations and priorities. None are inherently right or wrong--they're all personal choices. (Like track power, DCC, battery, steam, diesel, ford, chevy, tastes great, less filling...) What started off as an honest discussion has deteriorated into thoughts that verge on personal attacks and outright intolerance. Whatever our lot in life at the moment, it's merely one significan life event away from changing completely. Perhaps we can learn from others' perspectives, so when "it" happens to "us," we'll have a much broader perspective on the world. My suggestion (and at this point it is only a suggestion) is to cool our jets, and realize it's not how we pursue our common hobby that's important, just that we are all pursuing the same hobby. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Oh, NO! 

Kevin wants Greg to be a Moderator! 
Film at 11! 

Somebody tell Dwight!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Chuck wrote,

"Huh?? Toy like?? The demise of O Scale?? Err uh the O Gauge market is a 50-60 million $$$ a year business. Infact it now encompasses 3 rail high rail, 3 rail scale, 2 rail scale rail, conventional track powered mode, DCC, DCS TMCC and Tinplate Standard Gauge which Lionel & MTH are producing together."


Lemme try this one last time: I know O scale is doing well enough, in the NG area. People with LS layouts are doing something like Fn2. I DIDN'T know hi-rail--in all its forms--was even much of a contender in the field. This is news to me, FWIW, and I'm glad. I knew hi-rail as 'toy trains' or 'tinplate', even the modern, plastic stuff. As you can see, I don't go there much.









It was never my intention to describe _O _scale as 'toylike'. Even I know it isn't. So see, I learned something new. And I'm glad the whole O market is robust.

Which raises a nagging question: if an industry that is doing well because a certain fraction of it is unapologetically toy-like, why is there so much criticism of 'toy-like' with some of the recent entries into the LS field? Is there some kind of disconnect?

Anyway, thanks for the input. Any time I can find out something new, I appreciate it. If I've posted inaccurately, I apologize. It was through ignorance, not malice.

Les


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

if you believe that 
theres a certain age demographic that is 'into trains' 
and we're getting older and possibly fewer 

and have worse eyesight for some minute detailing and painting etc 
and as retirement approaches (or arrives) probably less $$$ for trains 

BUT large scale is perhaps the best for less than nimble hands and jewelers eyes 

i agree with vsmith 



it may be smaller indoor friendly locos-priced right-that run on R1 or R2-bit ist all that cute dimunitive stuff what a lot of rail road modeler folks hated about LGB? -





the reall future is probably determined by volume sales-period-stuff in g scael everyone wants in order to keep prices lower


-not sure what that is-except its probably called HO


i love my large scale sutff and have 2/3 of an an acre and a large basement-


 


and I TOO think the BIG g scale stuff takes too much room-but it DOES look cool-but im not buying the really big stuff anymore-just the right size big to me is an LGB mogul or mallet-but i delight in the porters and FRR stuff too


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 06/08/2009 4:23 PM
if you believe that theres a certain age demographic that is 'into trains' and we're getting older and possibly fewer and have worse eyesight for some minute detailing and painting etc and as retirement approaches (or arrives) probably less $$$ for trains 

BUT large scale is perhaps the best for less than nimble hands and jewelers eyes 

i agree with vsmith, it may be smaller indoor friendly locos-priced right-that run on R1 or R2-but ist all that cute dimunitive stuff what a lot of rail road modeler folks hated about LGB? - 






Indeed it was, people griped and moaned about the lack of real scale models, so Aristo, USA and Bachmann obliged, giving us DAsh-9s K27s and PA-1s that are 3 feet long and require 8' diameter curves to operate, thats great if you've got a typical rural property and can spread out your layout, so we ended up having a market of alot of very small engines, several very large engines but if you wanted steam, the middle got very neglected. The dismal crowd now has a large range of dismals ranging from SW s all the way up to Dash9 and SD70s, Steam afficianados have a slew of small engines like the Stainz, and the Porter, and some very very large engines, like the Hudson, Big Boys and the Mallet, but aside from Aristo's Pacific and Mike, the middle got left out. Whats really needed is to fill this gap of small Moguls, Prairies, and Decopods, all the mid-size engines that should be designed to run on smaller diameter curves like R2's, but even 6.5s would open the market up tremendously, I think in the long run its been a huge mistake pushing all these supersize engines that require supersize curve, yes 8' IS supersized if you live on a typical suburban lot. So while everyone is quandering why LS growth may be slowing, consider John Q Public going to the BTS, is very interested in setting up a garden layout, but may only have room for R1 or R2 curves due to the now standards smaller lots most new houses and a heck of alot of older houses come with, but he gets pummeled with the mantra that you have to have 8' diameter curve, but 12' diameters look even better but 20' diameter is best, does a quick mental calculation and realized his back yard is only 15 feet deep and he needs 10' of that for other uses...is it any wonder intersest stagnates a little?

One of the things that drew me in when I started was back then GR very often published small narrow space layouts that often were R1 or R2 dominant layouts, running funky little narrow gauge trains in tight backyards, but of late they have become few and very far between in the rags, the most I see them now in on the Brit website, says alot about where the mainstream of the hobby has shifted here in just the last 5 years, where it goes during this economic down turn remains to be seen, while the big sky layouts are here to stay, I still predict we'll see a (modest) return to the smaller tighter, and much more affordable, layouts


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Not even sure how to start?? After 5 pages it all comes down to I want my favorite manufacturer to make engine X or car Y, and there may be a large number of people in that camp. Now some want a high quality, well detailed, to scale model and price is not all that important. The other half of the camp want it on a budget and are willing to accept compromises. This whole camp as a group is just one of several, all of which want a particular engine A or car B from another manufacturer. Add to that, in standard gauge some want 1:29,some want 1:32. Each camp is divided over the price vs quality scale model. The manufactures have choices to make. Offer a smaller variety but produce a larger volume to keep prices down, do they go for the scale model or the less detailed model? Or they can offer a wide variety, lots off tool costs this way so again which version and how many will sell? There are so many variables in this equation it makes my head hurt. And we wonder why some companies go under... 
Once upon a time there were not so many choices. This was especially true in live steam! When it comes to North American outline even the sparkies had limited choices.. Have we have become spoiled ?? 
Mine, like many here have had our financial world turned upside down. It's no fun loosing most or all of our discretionary spending money, but the bills come first. Will the pendulum swing back the other way? probably . how soon? no idea ! 
The hobby may loose a few players (manufacturers) but when things improve they'll be back. As far as track radius goes, budget, train size and available real estate seem to dictate those decisions. Choose a code and tie style and manufacturer, call the cc company and beg for a limit increase and buy your track. hehe 
The future of the hobby??? I see more and more people coming in, of the ones who drop out from time to time, many find heir way back. A few don't.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

'O' scale...a few years back, when I was first thinking of getting back into model railroading after twenty some years, 'O' scale was a very strong contender. It was actually my first choice...but I just could not get past the 'look' of the three rail track. At that point I started looking at G scale, noticed it was all two rail stuff, costs roughly similiar, and even the track radius's were comparable. In the end 'G' won...but it was very close with me.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

Going back five pages of moaning and groaning to the original post: 

"My first post here but I was just wondering whether this hobby will survive the recession. With less discretionary money available and the younger generation engrained into online games, do you think this hobby will survive?...." 

Yes, the hobby will survive the recession--may even do better during the recession, as hobbies tend to do. This hobby, like any, is what YOU make of it. There are many thousands of folks who are happily engaged in the Large Scale segment of the hobby today, both indoors and outdoors. Thankfully, a majority of them are too busy enjoying their trains to get involved in all the doom, gloom, and self-interest stuff that so often dominates online discussions.


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I am going to address a few points here...

First... cost of the hobby... this irks me to no end... quit showing the beginner guys the BIG BOY and Dash-9....
They don't need 20' curves and 300' mainlines....

I guess it depends what you look for... BUT...

I got into LARGE SCALE 1/29th... because I liked the size, and was spending just as much in N Scale...

I can get an engine FA, RS3, U25B, 0-4-0, GP38, GP7 etc... easily for under $200... I've bought them new for $125 if you keep your eyes open for sales etc, I've seen some for under $100....

My Pacific was $150 New... my GP38 was $225 NEW with a Matching Caboose...

A good N scale set now is easily over $100
a good loco in N or HO or O can easily be $100 or more...

I bought packs of 6.5' diam curves for $60 at the ECLSTS

A starter set in G is around $200...

Buildings... are $30 or more in other scales... Colorado Model Structures are $30 approx in 1/24th...

I just buy less total pieces of stuff each year... but I get BIG STUFF!!!

I just bought a complete Bachmann B&O Passenger set at a yardsale for $25 in the box...

now for the age thing...

I am 37yrs old... my son is 6... my other son is 4...
I did the train thing with my dad... I had my own N scale layout as a teen...
I got out of trains in college and into my 20s... and did not gt back into them until I had my own house and kids...
I had freinds as a teen who were into trains too...

I think we just tend to congregate wth people of our own age...
and teens generally don't want t hang out with old guys...

I think the hobby is growing and continues to grow...

my 2 cents

Philip


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

*RE: The Future of Large Scale Trains & this Hobby?*

(1) Yes the hobby will survive, as I have so many unfinished projects that I can never die. 

(2) Please, please stop issuing edicts about how other people should play with their toys and what toys they should play with. Or what size to play with. Or how much to pay for them. I'm willing to look at anything once and have found myself unexpectedly captivated more times than I can count. I like watching toys that I'm not dedicated enough to build or wealthy enough to buy. 

(3) If someone can afford to fill 100 square miles with 1:1 live steam and spectacular trestles, I hope they let me come watch. If someone whittles a Decapod out of raw metal, builds a BAGRS from a kit, or buys a plastic Mikado, I hope they bring it to Diamondhead so that I can see it. The greatest strengths of this hobby are in the diversity of ways in which it can be practiced, the depth of the hobby (both skills and areas of knowledge), and the brilliant, friendly, imaginative, sharing, open, eccentric, resourceful, wonderfully whacky people who share it. 

(4) Just remember, it's cheaper than golf and the resale value of the engines is higher. Even if you buy Aster. (Did I offend the Aster owners? Sorry -- I'll be happy to watch if you would like to run one.) It's a hobby! Lighten up and enjoy it. 

I have to go now -- trains to run, Mike


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