# J & M Model Coaches, Carriages, Personenwagen, usw.



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Greetings,

As most who read and/or participate here regularly here know, I am relatively new to the hobby. My focus has been, like many, on the locomotive. But what of the rolling stock? Specifically, here I am meaning to discuss passenger carrying coaches and related.

From what I gather, J & M Models has been considered one of the better upper-end model makers for passenger cars - or coaches/carriages if you prefer.

A while back, we had a discussion here about whether Aster locomotives hold their value and I think we rightly concluded they are not among the soundest of financial investments, but one won't lose much money when one is ready to sell and if one factors in the pleasure of owning from the day of purchase to the day of letting them go, we are probably fine.

How about high-end coaches?

J & M were taken over in 2008 and the folks who own the rights to the product and the wherewithal to produce the carriages have a relatively narrow focus - Rheingold, C.I.W.L, Gothard Bahn and some Swiss.

As far as I can tell, the pricing is in the 1,500 to 1,650 Euro range .

So two carriages, perhaps three = one pretty fine locomotive!

Why I bring this up now is that I just bought seven (7) J & M coaches and the guy who has sold them to me wants me to purchase five more and "clean him out" for now, so to speak. 

I think he may end up "cleaning me out" of money!

On the way to me are:

PRR "Edgar Allan Poe"

CIWL Fourgon (baggage car,) 1262 - Fleche D'Or
CIWL 4018 - a First Class WSP, also Fleche D'Or
CIWL 4119 - Second Class, also Fleche D'Or

I have tried three times now to purchase a Chapelon Nord 231E, but have failed. I'll have some carriages available should I ever succeed!

For the other side of the Channel, I have three Brit Pullmans that would be suitable for Golden Arrow, one of which has been used also on the Simplon Orient Express

Pullman's "Juana," "Ibis" and "Car 54"

*What do you think each of the above are worth?*

Next I will have to look into establishing scale ferry service between Dover and Calais!

Not yet purchased are five more J & M Pullmans:

An unnumbered New York Central coach
A rather nice an rare observation sleeper "Catskill Valley"
Three green Pullmans of various sorts - Southern Pacific heavyweights

If I were to purchase the SP cars, I would have them repainted for the PRR or try and swap them for PRR.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: It would not be viewed by me as impertinent if one reaction was : "Whadaya crazy?"


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I would love to have several heavyweights that I could repaint GN for my S2 and I would have David Leech make replacement trucks so they would roll better. Instead I am repainting some Aristocraft heavyweights, yes I know they are not the correct scale but too bad. What's needed is someone to make heavyweights for 1/3 that price. No, you're not crazy. If this was crazy none of us would be in this hobby, you spent how much for a toy train? I know you've all heard this.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I have been "on the hunt" for a while now.

It seems as though there are an infinite number of folks making fine quality brass coaches for HO and O gauge, but not so much for "our" gauge.

Cheers,

Joe

PS: Last week I received a rake of four chocolate and cream BR Mk I coaches for my BR(WR) Castle - from G1MRC, by way of Accucraft and so far, I perceive them to be of good value for the amount of money spent. I.E. one J & M = 4 G1MRC.

Detail is nice and if one wishes to get more serious with them - intends to run them often - one can invest in some quality sprung trucks, upholster the seating and detail the corridors, etc.

Cheers,

Joe


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Dan,

Are you familiar with Kern Valley Railway's cars? Maybe those would be right for your S2.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

BRO

Have you actually ever seen any Kern Valley 1:32 heavyweights? I have seen ZERO. I have seen one car in 1:29 many years ago. A friend [now deceased] ordered EIGHT heavyweights and put down a substantial deposit. After TWO YEARS he had NOTHING. Took another several months to get the deposit back after determining they had NEVER started to build the cars.

In my book a poor choice.

That said, I do own two Kern valley 1:32 PRR B60B baggage cars. Overpriced, but the only thing in the market. I bought them off the table at an ECLSTS.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Joe,

It sounds like you fallen into the deep end of the pool! The 1/32 scale passenger coach has traditionally been the difficult and potentially painful in the bank account part of Gauge 1. J & M Model coaches again, like in our locomotive discussion, are influenced by many of the same factors--the condition of the model, the scarcity of the model, and that every-changing variable, the demand for the model.

So to try to answer to your question...what are they worth...leads to similar answers as before. It depends on the above. CIWL cars are in high demand currently, are relatively rare and generally demand high prices given an open marketplace, like at an auction. The recent auction in Dallas, for example, saw what I thought were some good examples...three mint CIWL cars sold for $5100.Ouch.but maybe they go higher...who knows?.. In a similar vein, if you acquired some J&M Reingold cars and sold them on ebay.de then their value there will likely be higher there than in the US....So again, the value of these cars depends on a lot of the same market factors as the locos. I can tell that the prices have gone up in general (for J&M models) over the last ten to fifteen years. I acquired some J&M Pennsy cars some years ago for a few hundred each....and sold them to Hans for about the same a few years later but today they are probably worth a lot more if he took good care of them. Demand seems to be increasing for specific coaches and lines--heavyweights in particular.. And as the gent above noted, there are some manufacturers who are putting some products out there. Accucraft too has now stepped in. We will see what impacts good and bad that will have. The good obviously is satisfying pent up demand for coaches with all these naked locomotives...and the bad, for some, may be the reduction in value of a previously rare model...So, purchase what you want and enjoy them!

Good luck,
Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks for the input, Dan and Sam,

(Jim and Big Red as well.)

The Ebay.de site is hands down, better to work with for our hobby than the other sites I check: Ebay.co.uk, Ebay.fr, Ebay.it and of course Ebay.com. I will occasionally look at .ca and .au as well.

I find it irritating that, if one searches for Gauge 1 on the UK site, one seems to get everything but Gauge 1. Filtering on the UK site is crap, US not much better.

One has to hand it to the Germans for Teutonic precision, though. You search for Speisewagen, Spur 1, and that is exactly what you get.

At the moment, the going price for Rheingold J & M from a couple of suppliers, new - or like new is 1,095 to 1,195 Euro.

When it comes to 1:32 scale coaches, it seems the US, UK, French and Italian sites are about dry, but there are items on the German site.

Just as an aside, the UK and German sites have a lot of live steam overall, but the most complex model engines I have seen a more likely to be found on the German site.

The guy I bought the coaches from also had the Nord, but it was obviously kit-built and the pipe-work was imprecise ( a bit sloppy) and there were some brass castings missing, one per side. The price was fair - fair enough that someone else bought it while I was thinking about it. 

Cheers,

Joe

By the way . . .

There is an Aster Big Boy and a King for sale on the German site. 

The price for the King seems OK to my eye, but there are some signs of wear. The Big Boy looks very good, but it is not being offered on the cheap at $16K.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Jim,

I think I saw their display model at the 2013 East Coast Large Scale Train Show, but point taken and good to know.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan

Kern Valley's pricing for heavyweights has risen to the point that their resin cars [based in part on the old American Standard Car Co. kits] are at the same price point as used J&M American heavyweights [$500 to $750].

Used J&M cars are good value in the $450-$600 range.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

> . . .
> 
> Used J&M cars are good value in the $450-$600 range.


 Jim,

Do you know of any J&M cars available anywhere at the moment at the price point you mention?

Seriously, I'd be happy to purchase cars for my K4 at that price tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM. (Owing to the fact that I will be asleep earlier on.) 

I do not mind admitting that I paid just under $1,300.00 for the one PRR "Edgar Allan Poe" Pullman, but that may be because I am a sheep that needed to be sheared. 

I'd gladly stay away from the clippers next time if you can point me to a better source. Apparently I paid double the going rate?

The fellow I purchased from has a "Catskill Valley" he is asking $2,700.00 for but he will take less if I purchase additional J & M Pullman cars from him.

I haven't bought it because it is priced above my "threshold of pain," but my research tells me that J&M built only ten (10) models of the Pullman "Catskill Valley," which is more or less the same number of "Valley" cars that Pullman originally built as well.

Help save me from myself. 

Regards,

Joe

Sam, you appear to be quite correct; I did fall into the deep end of the pool.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I am going to reply to myself now. 

An interesting wrinkle before retiring for the evening . . .

A sister New York Central open observation coach to the "Catskill Valley" is the "Elkhart Valley." J & M made ten of each as far as I am aware.

In 2006, Christies sold an Elkhart Valley for $2,640.00

Here: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...ited-4846447-details.aspx?intObjectID=4846447

My friend in Düsseldorf had put Catskill Valley up on Ebay from his private collection as an inducement for me to purchase the remaining Pullmans and I did not realize this until he explained it later. We've been going back and forth in Englisch und Deutsch and neither of us get everything out of each exchange. 

Once I indicated the price was a bit too dear for me, he took it down.

So how much are these J & M Pullman coaches worth again?

Cheers,

Joe

More info here:

A standard NY Central bidding started at $1,700.00

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/23390695_jandm-models-brass-nyc-g-scale-pullman-car-ob

Someone please help me find some of those $450.00 to $600 J & Ms!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I think Jim must be able to source some locally where variations in price in that range might happen. You are unlikely to find those prices on auction sites here in the US or overseas. The last ones i've seen sold via ebay here in the US went for about 1K each. Ah, the good old days when I purchased some of those cars for a few hundred dollars in mint condition....a rare event these days but it can happen.

Yes, Joe...I too would like to obtain up for a few coaches in that range....even in fair to good condition.

As Dan points one, get some new trucks and off you go...

Sam


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Like Dan I have repainted Aristocraft coaches and they look OK behind a S2

Kern Valley does not deliver and still owes me money

jim


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Jim,

For what the Aristo coaches cost these days, it makes sense....I gave up with the S2 and use freight cars...the ones that Pete Comley has from Accucraft are decent....but if you want GN heavyweights, you'll have to paint them or make em....

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I appreciate the dialog, gentlemen,

It is good to know where not to buy from as well as from whom to purchase.

When (hopefully not if,) the seven Pullmans that I purchased arrive safely and in good condition, I will report back here either satisfaction or otherwise.

The gentlemen, Bernd Zielke, has an 11,876 sales transaction record on Ebay with a 99.4% approval, so only a small number of folks dissatisfied and from my back and forth with him, seems like a fine fellow who shares a passion for the hobby.

We shall see in due course how things turn out.

Regards,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I think that I will have to add something here!
Jim Stapleton, please note that I am trying to be positive, although it's all negative!
J & M cars are worth what you are willing to pay!
To my mind, for their era, they were good, but when you look at them closely, they are really not up to todays standards for the price.
I had a bunch of unused heavyweight sides many years ago, and from what I recall, the etching of the rivets was very crude, and the cant rail was just a round bit brass rod soldered on under the windows.
The trucks, well to stick small balls in a hole, and then hope that the axle will rotate on them is a little questionable, but in those days they probably couldn't find any small ball races available.
It seems that some balls may fall out over time.
I have also seen the J & M British Pullman cars and if you compare them to say the Golden Age version of today, it's day and night.
So, maybe someone with deep pockets (Joe?) should contact Golden Age and have them build some 1/32 Heavyweights?
They won't be cheap, but great quality.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
p.s. Dan, my trucks will not work under the J&M cars, as the bodies are just too heavy.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David

I agree with your assessment of the J&M stock, but in 1:32 the options for American heavyweights are limited. I did trade up from J&M to Golden Age British Pullmans [11] over a period of time. Quentin uses a Korean builder that [he claims] requires batches of 90 [or more] units for a production run. This is why there are no 5BEL sets in Ga 1 yet.

Even if Accucraft could be induced to build heavyweights with a reasonable level of detail, I would expect them to be in the $850-$1000 range.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

I guess part of the problem may be that there may be as few as (wild-arse guess coming,) 3,000 people active in this hobby world-wide ???

Whatever the number, the market is small and people who lived during the time of steam are dying off. One may wonder whether the market will ever grow beyond what exists today?

See, I too can stay on a positive note when I try hard!

In a static display model, most of us probably want a decent standard of detail. (One manufacturer touts "real gold" used for the C.I.W.L. emblems - on HO or O gauge if I recall correctly.)

I just painted the handles on my BR Mk I coaches with gold-leaf paint to look like brass - only because the adjacent hand grab-rails were already brass.

But . . .

From ten feet away, or once the coaches or carriages are in motion, they may as well be crayon coloUred cardboard boxes with wheels on them, only decent enough to avoid derailing.

How does one rationalize J&M models not being up to today's standards (I am not in any way questioning the premise,) when today's standard does not include manufacturing many models? It's largely "take what you can get," isn't it?

I am determined to enjoy the seven J & M coaches I just ordered even though I may be the only one to do so, content with the notion that is was them or nothing. 

Besides, my eyesight is not what it once was anyway. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Dr Rivet said:


> David
> 
> I agree with your assessment of the J&M stock, but in 1:32 the options for American heavyweights are limited. I did trade up from J&M to Golden Age British Pullmans [11] over a period of time. Quentin uses a Korean builder that [he claims] requires batches of 90 [or more] units for a production run. This is why there are no 5BEL sets in Ga 1 yet.
> 
> Even if Accucraft could be induced to build heavyweights with a reasonable level of detail, I would expect them to be in the $850-$1000 range.


Jim,

Thanks for your continued input into this thread.

Perhaps I will have a look at Golden Age Models at some point.

Cheers,

Joe

A postscript . . .

In the last few days, I spent a couple of hours scouring the Net and the only decent not-custom-made-to-order models I found at any price are the ones I bought plus the handful I did not buy - all in Germany.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

You've hit on the key point. relative to your value question...where's the supply?. For some, the lack of supply and the lack of available or spendable dollars moves one to settle on an Aristo heavyweight where there is a fairly good supply at low prices......For others--the few of us left that is.--since there is no middle ground product currently, it's on to the high end J&M or even higher end Golden Age stuff...

The risks for a manufacturer in this space are considerable--a dying off customer base (that does sound negative...) a set of buyers already committed to the high end and low end perhaps..and to add to that produce a car(s) that will satisfy the diverse needs of the rest......So, they''re asking--where's the demand?

So, here we are.........maybe I'm in the wrong hobby??...... want to buy some J&M Cars???

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

If one were going to use Gauge 1 (Spur 1) coach availability as a method of gauging (pun intended) interest in the hobby for the moment:

Ebay.com - none available
Ebay.co.uk - none available
Ebay.fr - a couple
Ebay.it - a couple

Ebay.de - probably 50 or more in Spur 1, most of which are for German lines, Rheingold, BR, GB, usw (und so weiter - and as it goes, meaning etc.)

On the German site there is J&M, Märklin and KISS Modelbahn, Lemaco, Fulgurex Metal, Dingler, among others.

Puts the rest of us to shame. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
On Ebay.uk you will probably very seldom find any Gauge 1 models, period.
Why - because it's not the British way of selling!
Within the G1MRA membership there are many manufacturers who don't need to advertise or sell on something like Ebay, because they have a built in market, in the association.
Yes it is probably mainly custom built, because the requirements of the buyer is normally very specific.
There are just too many different types of coaches to try and mass produce.
At least, that's the way it seems to me.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> David,
> 
> I guess part of the problem may be that there may be as few as (wild-arse guess coming,) 3,000 people active in this hobby world-wide ???
> 
> ...


Joe,
I think that if you are talking 1/32 (10mm/ft) scale, you are very low with your numbers.
I would suggest that it maybe even five times that.
Will it grow - of course not!
Your last point is the important one - ENJOY YOUR HOBBY.
Don't worry about whether it is a good investment.
Don't worry about what happens to it all when you die.
Enjoy playing with it now, while you can still see it.
This last Sunday, six of our local group all got together at Dan Pantages for a wonderful day of steaming and talking, and that's what I think this hobby is all about.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

A counterpoint to the future health of the hobby would be the explosion of wealth in emerging markets. Places like China and India have the potential to become the largest hobby buyers, simply due to the population size.

Though who knows if you'll get Pullmans or Chinese bullet trains?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Joe,
> On Ebay.uk you will probably very seldom find any Gauge 1 models, period.
> Why - because it's not the British way of selling!


I find locomotives listed there quite often. 

Few listings are of a commercial nature though lately one see The Stationmaster's Rooms and Finescale Brass listed on Ebay.co.uk.

Little to no goods wagons (freight cars,) or carriages (passenger cars.)

If anyone is interested there is a BR Green 5 MT there now which is being offered by a good seller from whom I once bought a pristine Schools.




> Within the G1MRA membership there are many manufacturers who don't need to advertise or sell on something like Ebay, because they have a built in market, in the association.


 I see that they make sure to have a good appearance in the NL & J.



> Yes it is probably mainly custom built, because the requirements of the buyer is normally very specific. There are just too many different types of coaches to try and mass produce.


 That and an insufficient number of buyers to sustain any mass production beyond a couple hundred of anything in particular.



> At least, that's the way it seems to me.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


 And to you as well . . .

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Joe,
> I think that if you are talking 1/32 (10mm/ft) scale, you are very low with your numbers.
> I would suggest that it maybe even five times that.


From your lips to God's ears, I hope to have been mistaken. 



> Will it grow - of course not!
> Your last point is the important one - ENJOY YOUR HOBBY.
> Don't worry about whether it is a good investment.
> Don't worry about what happens to it all when you die.
> ...


I have noted that you have often said, more or less, it's your railroad, enjoy it and run it the way you like!

In that vein, if and when I obtain a 231 Nord, I will not only pull the Fleche D'Or cars behind, but I just may pull the Brit Pullmans as well! The coloUr is complimentary. 

And lacking a Nelson or a Spam Can, the Schools will have to substitute for a true Golden Arrow loco.

Please do not pass the word to any other G1MRA members as I would not wish to be unceremoniously (or worse yet, ceremoniously) drummed out for mixing British and French Pullmans. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

BigRedOne said:


> A counterpoint to the future health of the hobby would be the explosion of wealth in emerging markets. Places like China and India have the potential to become the largest hobby buyers, simply due to the population size.
> 
> Though who knows if you'll get Pullmans or Chinese bullet trains?


Here's hoping Aster continues as a going concern in the presence of a market that includes the Chinese and the Korean products.

There would be no reasonably priced resin coaches such as the ones G1MRC have commissioned if it were not for Chinese manufacturing.

How many hobbyists could possibly have a machine shop in their workrooms without Chinese made lathes and mills.

Cheers,

Joe


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

StackTalk said:


> Here's hoping Aster continues as a going concern in the presence of a market that includes the Chinese and the Korean products.


Yes, this is one of my fears too.

More product encroaching on the lower or middle part of the market erodes sales from the higher end, and lower production runs force still higher prices ...

Through an alternative theory is that cheaper substitutes become akin to free advertising for the real thing (like all those knockoff Rolexes and such.)

More accessible price points should help new entrants, and hopefully some will get hooked!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

4 PA heavyweights just recently sold around NJ for [email protected] They are around.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Kovacjr said:


> 4 PA heavyweights just recently sold around NJ for [email protected] They are around.


Such a tease, Jason; such a tease!

So where were they? 

How does one find out about such things? 

Was this a private sale, one friend to another or did the gauge 1 community have a shot at them but missed the opportunity?

Cheers,

Joe

PS: I would discount one friend selling privately to another as "being around," and likewise, the price point would not be meaningful - as in relating to an open market price.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, local sourcing can lead to price variations...also, since you do not know the condition of these cars, it is hard to comment. The seller would have likely done much better in an open auction given the price realized but again, it's hard to know without seeing them...

There is a lot to be said for being at the right place at the right time...

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

boilingwater said:


> Joe,
> 
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, local sourcing can lead to price variations...also, since you do not know the condition of these cars, it is hard to comment. The seller would have likely done much better in an open auction given the price realized but again, it's hard to know without seeing them...
> 
> ...


Respectfully offered, Sam, this is why I directed my question to the poster, Jason, as presumably he knows the facts and the rest of us, including you and I, can merely speculate.

Right now, there are a limited number of "public" outlets of which I am aware, but I am always happy to learn of more.

Ebay is established worldwide, but one needs to check in the most likely places to find what one is seeking, Ebay.de being about the best with UK and Com perhaps tied for second.

For all of the knocks that Ebay receives from time to time, one does have some assurance that one is going to actually receive what one orders. Ebay has a generally good - even generous - buyer protection scheme and even though we pay for it within the purchase price, to me it is well worth the "insurance" money.

Right now, I know of an individual in Australia who has an Aster C62-2 for sale. I do not know him from Adam and there is no chance I would send that kind of money to a total stranger and hope for the best, whereas a seller on Ebay who has had a few hundred or even a few thousand successful transactions is as good a bet as is getting one's money back after originally depositing it in J.P. Morgan Chase.

Apart from Ebay, there are places that sponsor private transactions such as Discover Live Steam or Steam Engines for Sale - two, off the top of my head.

One has to be G1MRA member to receive the Newsletter and Journal and membership is reasonable and the NL&J is superb and I suspect many, if not most here, already belong.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I guess the question I was trying to raise is this:

Hearing that someone sold four coaches to someone else for a low price, doesn't help the rest of us much, does it?

At one time I could have bought a Ferrari Dino for about $40K and passed on it, but now they can cost $200K and more.

So how does it help someone who may be looking for one to learn that one just sold in Wisconsin for $55K? And that deals may be around?

Is there more to the story that may be instructional for the rest of us?

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

The plot thickens . . .

I am told that J&M produced only ten sets of 4 Pennsy heavyweight coaches which included the tail-end observation car.

Can anyone here confirm or refute?

I have been able to independently verify only ten "Catskill Valley" observation cars were produced, though this "verification" is not solid . . . and nothing more than a statement in a Christie's auction that only ten were built. Also, I believe ten Elkhart Valley were produced.

So it is plausible, but by no means certain, that only ten Pennsy sets were produced? Comments anyone?

My seller wants to sell me, of course . . . and tells me he has seen no complete sets of four Pennsy J&M coaches offered in 13 years he has been doing business.

Jason tells us that these things are "around" and that four sold in NJ recently for 500 bucks each. Can both things be true? If there were only ten sets produced, then someone in NJ got a very fine deal indeed.

As you see, I am trying to do my due diligence before spending any more do-re-me. I will not be bound by anything that appears in this thread, but further comments are welcomed and will be helpful.

Yesterday I had a tentative offer to buy the rake of four which would include the observation car and another "Edgar Allan Poe." Hypothetically, this would have left me with two copies of Edgar Allan Poe. I would sell one or rename it to another Pennsy car with the same arrangement plan.

The seller had not sealed the deal and was trying to buy the four Pennsy Cars and a Fine Arts GG1. He would charge me what he paid for the entire deal and keep the GG1 as his profit. He has a buyer for the GG1 at a price he disclosed to me, so he would make a handsome profit.

It gets even more complicated but I feel I should not disclose the rest of the story. 

This is a small world we live in and if you were to Google J&M coaches for sale, this thread comes up first second or third, so there is the possibility that other buyers or sellers working the various exchanges will see this discussion and this could further complicate matters.

My only personal interest at this point is coming to a good understanding as to just how rare these J&M Pennsy heavyweights are before deciding how much I wish to spend on them - assuming the deal can be consummated - which is by no means certain anyway, at this point.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> The plot thickens . . .
> 
> I am told that J&M produced only ten sets of 4 Pennsy heavyweight coaches which included the tail-end observation car.
> 
> ...


Joe,
Have you tried contacting J&M's original owner, John Waggott, who now builds locomotives?
He can probably give you the answer.
From a listing on the internet:
"J & M'sTeam - John Waggott used to build coaches in G1, then he retired! With time on his hands he decided to return to building models but this time, live steam. A Great Central ROD 2-8-0 is available in different liveries and a coal fired, 6 cylinder LNER Garratt 2-8-0 0-8-2. What can you add to that!
Contact John on 01258 860 536 or e-mail - [email protected]"
From my file of old catalogues, I find a J&M one showing the heavyweights, and there is a photo of the Tuscan Observation, named Federal Hall!
So another part of the puzzle.
The price list shows just four Tuscan, and four Pullman Green cars with no mention of names.
The price in 1986 was £545 and £525 respectively.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

Thank you. Just the kind of response for which I was hoping!

Lots of folk here have a depth of knowledge more than I will acquire in certain areas of inquiry, so I will try and contact Jim Waggott and see what he can tell me.

The cars that _may_ be available to me at 'top Euro' are:

Federal Hall
Car # 4487, a diner class DA
"Edgar Allan Poe" which would be a second copy for me
"Liberty Bell"

I have not found any information on Liberty Bell as yet though the name sounds plausible enough. I did find information on another Hall Class observation car - Liberty Hall

Will continue with my due diligence and it may take me just long enough to lose the opportunity, lol.

Life does not hang in the balance as to whether a deal happens or not, though it would be nice to put together a scaled-down Broadway Limited for the K4s - which is running nicely and looking the part.

Seems a "real" rake of the Broadway Limited consisted of 8 or 9 cars.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
You are welcome.
Incidentally, I don't think that you have mentioned the car named Mark Twain in this thread?
Regards,
David


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> I have not found any information on Liberty Bell as yet though the name sounds plausible enough. I did find information on another Hall Class observation car - Liberty Hall
> 
> 
> Seems a "real" rake of the Broadway Limited consisted of 8 or 9 cars.
> ...


Here is The Liberty Bell:
http://tinyurl.com/m35rql2
The combine.
The only listing that I have of the Broadway Limited consist is from 1946, so is mainly lightweight cars, and has 15 cars, but two K4's to pull it.
Cheers,
David


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
Some more information.
From 1997 I find "U.S. style passenger cars are available by special order."
This would suggest that maybe you might find all kinds of names out there.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks again,

Just confirmed "Liberty Bell" is half baggage. 

So far, no mention of Mark Twain - nor of P.T. Barnum either. 

If I were to purchase this set, I will pay a higher price than anyone has mentioned thus far for them.

. . . and,

I may not get them at any price as the deal would be part of an arbitrage deal where three parties must get what they each want out of it . . . and with me holding the money bag on this side of the pond, temporarily. 

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

On the consists . . .

I found the link to a book written by Joe Welsh:

http://www.amazon.com/Pennsylvania-Railroads-Broadway-Limited-Passenger/dp/076032302X

Somewhere I found an excerpt - have to look for it later, which identified PRR K4s 5*3*75 pulling Train # 29, a nine car consist that included Federal Hall and the Diner one # removed from the one in the set. It also showed an 8-car consist.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
A couple more links for you:
Edgar Allan Poe
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6501650
Mark Twain
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6501651
Liberty Park
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6501652
and Federal Hall
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6501653
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## honeybooboo (Jan 10, 2014)

I think most of us normal guys would stick with Aristo for under 200.00
as USA has a vested interest in the future. 
Boo Boo


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Would like to see a line of pullman heavyweights like Aristo did but in 1:32, I wonder how many could be sold at that kind of price?


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Joe,
> A couple more links for you:
> Edgar Allan Poe
> http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6501650
> ...


Thanks again David. 

I created an account at Liveauctioneers just to look these up. They were all sold at the same time in 2009 and the prices ranged from $725 each to $775 each for the observations cars, so four for $3,000.00 in 2009.

Tellingly, from 2003 to the present, I only found only a handful of J&M coach auctions listed.

One possible conclusion is that, if one is willing to wait up to five years from now, on average, one will find coaches available for half the price of the ones I may be able to buy today. Funds availability and time value of money needs to be factored in.

It is anyone's guess when the next comparable group of coaches may be available and for how much.

I note that a group of 5 New York Central coaches went for $2,350.00 in 2003 and again - maybe even the same five for $3,300.00 sometime later, but not recently (failed to note date.)

In 2009, while the J&M Pennsy coaches were going for $750 each approx., the NY Central coaches sold for about $550.00 each approx. Go figure.

To be continued.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Would like to see a line of pullman heavyweights like Aristo did but in 1:32, I wonder how many could be sold at that kind of price?


If I had US outline coaches available of comparable quality to the G1MRC Mk I coaches, distributed in the US by Accucraft, there would be no need to struggle to find J&M coaches as, for my money, the G1MRC coaches are plenty good enough for the price points. 

They were just over $300.00 each which is a far cry from $1,300 each and more, much more for the rare J&M coaches.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I had trouble with this excerpt link, but if it loads for you, you will see the Broadway Limited consist info:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HV...&q=Broadway limited consist joe welsh&f=false

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
They were just over $300.00 each which is a far cry from $1,300 each and more, much more for the rare J&M coaches.

That is not going to happen with "heavyweight" coaches. J & M coaches (NYC) at the National Summer Steam up sold much, much lower than the historical tracking of prices you have researched.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

rbednarik said:


> Joe
> They were just over $300.00 each which is a far cry from $1,300 each and more, much more for the rare J&M coaches.
> 
> That is not going to happen with "heavyweight" coaches. J & M coaches (NYC) at the National Summer Steam up sold much, much lower than the historical tracking of prices you have researched.


Ryan,

Thank you. If I am interpreting what you stated correctly, you feel no one is about to sponsor heavyweights being made in China and brought in as G1MRC has done with the BR Mk I coaches. OK.

So we aren't getting any new ones?

But . . .

If one goes to a large regional or National steam-up, someone may offer a few of the J&Ms on the cheap?

Can you share with us an approximate number and condition of J&M coaches that changed hands at the National Summer Steam-up and what level of pricing? (I note that they were New York Central.)

Regards,

Joe

Edit: I am not deliberately trying to be obtuse here. 

The message I am getting so far is that there aren't going to be any new heavyweights made by anyone - at least none on the radar - and that there are some J&M around. I am interpreting the phrase "some around" as meaning that J&M coaches may be available for a reasonable price only through person-to-person direct contact every couple of years and there will be just a couple and they may or may not be available in a particular livery desired. When asked politely for follow-up from Jim or Jason, there has been none so far.

Do I have it about right?


----------



## daveyb (Feb 28, 2009)

its hard to put a price on beauty,,, the j an m models are just fantastic,,,,

if you can afford it,,, buy them,,, if not ,, buy the cheeper end stock,,, both will bring pleasure to the eye

off the bee holder,,,,

buzz buzz,,


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## dnguyen (Jan 2, 2011)

*J&M cars*

I see your thread. I would like to know if you are interested in selling your J&M Fleche d'or cars.

Regards,

Duc


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

dnguyen said:


> I see your thread. I would like to know if you are interested in selling your J&M Fleche d'or cars.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Duc


Duc,

Thank you for your inquiry.

I just purchased them and will see them for the first time next week. I'll put some photos up at some point.

So no, not interested in selling.

On the other hand, if someone who has read this thread and has *PRR heavyweights to sell *- as we know they are indeed "around" - I would be happy to make an offer for 4 to 6 such coaches for a price higher than either mentioned - or alluded to - by Jason, Jim or Ryan - assuming that they are in very good shape.

Private messages welcome.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Anyone have a better email address for John Waggott" ?

This address:

[email protected]

Appears to be no longer valid. My inquiry "bounced back."

Received two coaches today, "Juana" and C.I.W.L 4018E. Will try and get some photos up. I am satisfied with the condition so far.

* * *

Thanks to all of you who sent private messages to me offering up your PRR J&M heavyweight coaches for $500 to $650 each. Too many folks to acknowledge individually here.

My inbox is now full and I will do my best to get off a personal reply to each of you just as soon as I can. With so many opportunities to choose from, I will need at least a dozen pictures of each to help me decide which to actually buy!

Just kidding, of course. 

Here's hoping everyone's sense of humor is intact.

It is my hope to "keep it light."

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Below is a composite of C.I.W.L 4018E














The first two coaches I received have satisfied me as far as to overall quality for the money spent.

As suggested earlier, I would rather have spent less and got less - as the more one spends, the less likely one is going to want to risk damage by bringing the coaches along to a steam-up for others to enjoy!

These two are gems . . .

On 4018E, I found that the brass bright work needs attention - as would be expected. I have already given it some "elbow grease" as you will see in the second row before and after shining up the brass. 

One stair/step was bent and one glass panel was missing of the many panels in this model. I show the door with the missing glass panel in the second row.

It turns out that microscope slides make good glass panels due to near-perfect size and thin-ness - and I ordered a box of 72 today for about 6 dollars! I can now break 71 additional windows and still recover in good form.

I won't go through the trouble of putting photos up for the rest of these coaches, but I will consider putting up a couple photos upon request if there is specific interest. 

The seven I purchased in these recent transactions were listed in the OP - opening post - and I have only received the two so far.

I'll put up the very interesting CIWL "Fourgon" baggage car and the "Edgar Allan Poe" when they arrive.

Cheers,

Joe


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Very nice, Joe.

Did you mention what you're pulling them with?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

You've just opened up a can of worms, haven't you? 

I have a Schools, A Castle and an unbuilt "Evening Star" with which to work.

At the moment, I have a collection of buggies but no horse for the three CIWL wagons.

I am on the lookout for an Aster Chapelon 231E and when I was putting the bid in for the Fleche d'Or cars, I was also investigating a Nord. It had issues. It was built from a kit and had imprecisely bent pipework which I was afraid would indicate less than stellar work overall and it was missing two brass castings, one on each side. It sold 24 hours after I found it. In retrospect, I probably should have bought it and rebuilt it from scratch if need be, as it was 95+% complete and the paintwork looked unblemished.

So I am "on the hunt" for a Nord and I have a few people on the lookout for me as well. Anyone here who hears of one coming available, kindly let me know.

So it is fair dues to say that I put the cart before the horse. ;-)

As far as the Brit Pullmans go . . .

They appear to have been vagabonds!

*Pullman CAR 54* was run by the LNER but also by the SR and beforehand was owned for a time by the Simplon Orient Express, so I think I can rightly pull it with the *Southern Schools* or, taking a page out of the David Leech school of railroading, pull it with my BR(GW) Castle.

I have seen at least one photo of Golden Arrow Pullmans being pulled by a Schools, BTW. (I recognize a Nelson class or a Spam Can is preferable.)

I don't like appearing to be as pedestrian as I really am, but the chocolate (umber) and cream color scheme will cause me to take liberties and mix it with other chocolate and cream stock that I possess!

*Ibis* was originally built for the CIWL in 1925 and was sent off to Italy and for a time served on the Simplon Orient Express and was renamed "Car 52" for a bit. It was transferred to France and served on the "Deauville Express" for a time. A bit later still it ran between Paris and Ostend, Belgium. Eventually it was repatriated and became part of the SR and ran between London and the Channel Ports as part of the Golden Arrow. What a tart she was! Ibis also eventually worked with the GWR in the Devon area before eventually ending up in the Birmingham Railway Museum. As long as I do not use it between virtual New York and Chicago, I think I can pretty much have my way with Ibis, can't I? (Info above courtesy of Kentrail.org.uk)

*Juana* was originally ordered for the GWR and you know what that means for my Castle. *wink* Eventually it was absorbed into the SR Western Section.

The *"Edgar Allan Poe" *will be a "rake of one," so far, for the K4.

At the moment the railroad itself is virtual. I am fortunate to have two properties with which to work. My current thinking is to acquire a smallish portable track pending deciding whether I will actually build a small railroad most likely at my summer place.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
What locomotive are you using for the J&M Fleche d'or cars given that the 231E is a seldom made available. Well, if you want to "lease out (with option to purchase)" the coaches our U1 could use a bit more weight behind it...
Maybe there might be a 241P might become available: probably not so, more likely a 141R or 140C could be put into service.

Enjoy the set of cars...


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Duc
Welcome to the forum!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks, Charles,

BTW, Enjoyed you "left coast" video!

At the moment, there is an un-built French Mikado - Mistral - on Ebay which is lying in Italy, for sale to the Euros only. 

I contacted the owner in my best Italian and he _may_ let me bid on it. 

We'll see . . .

I once thought that I could not possibly even think about spending the kind of money required to purchase a 241P, but, if I add up the money I am spending on coaches and am contemplating spending on coaches, the price of a U1 (if one becomes available) or a 241P is starting to look well . . . shall I say . . . reasonable? 

A couple more shots of what I have received so far . . .




































I really do want the Nord though . . . 

I have at least a couple of fellow Americans helping me look for one as well as a couple guys in Switzerland and one in Germany.

***********************

"Juana" is missing one of the corridor connector accordion bellows. I have written J&M Models to see whether these may be available, as they do make "stuff" still.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

PS:

One of these days when I may stop by your place, I can bring some toys with me Charles. 

Joe


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

OK I haven't followed every twist and turn in this thread mainly because I don't always understand English as written by our N American brothers 

However, let me give you a few words about J&M in the UK. Generally good but used examples sell for GBPounds 500 (US$ 850). Exceptional mint examples say US$ 1200.

I have an English Pullman (GBPounds 600)and a French Fourgon (GBPounds 450). I often get US Heavyweights and other items as Part-ex and I am happy to move them along. Shipping can be expensive due to weight and need to pack very carefully. 

John Waggot (Mr J&M) still refurbishes used examples and offers them for sale. New J&M is made in Holland and is expensive.

AsterUK


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Andrew,

Thanks for stopping by . . . 

I will comment on the content of your message at the end of my post.

Some pictures of a new arrival as of today:














It looks to be in pretty good shape, but it too (as well as "Juana,") is missing one of the corridor connectors (accordion bellows.)

I have written J&M this morning - or last evening - about whether the connectors are available, and as J&M Models still make models, I would think the connectors ought to be available, yes?

I have not as yet written John Waggott but will do so by and by.

I had a couple of private exchanges about the "accessibility" of these J&M coaches and I think that what was determined is that, there may be many "around," but most folks who have them, want to hold on to them until their widows sell them off upon their demise - assuming the gals live longer than the guys.

According to my definition of "around," something is only "around" if it is available in a reasonable period of time, not willy-nilly or serendipitously.

You appear to be an exception, Andrew. 

You seem to have some available and you seem willing to part with them at a fair price.

I will send an email along to you concerning what you now have on hand that you may be willing to sell.

FYI, I have received four coaches from a German reseller very recently and they have come in packed pretty well via UPS, have been insured for $1K each, and I have been paying about 40 to 50 Euro per each for shipping which is acceptable to me, though I always want to get the best deal I can, just like everyone else!

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I mentioned this earlier on, but for a market to exist, there needs to be a supply and a place to obtain the supply . . . as well as demand.

Buyers need to be able to find sellers and vice versa.

Yes, I see some scant few ads in the back of the otherwise very fine NL&J and I have heard that one runs across items for sale at regional get togethers.

But how else? There must be a better way than to stumble around in the virtual dark hoping to find something?

I have noted that purchasing through Ebay provides some advantages. The seller generally gets a good price when the item is in demand . . . and the buyer has some assurance that he will actually receive that which he believes he has purchased.

The UK Ebay site isn't very good for our hobby. There are a number of live steam locomotives listed @ Ebay.co.uk on any given day, but little to no carriages or wagons.

In contrast, if one goes to Ebay.de, one will find _plenty, _relatively speaking.

Just search out "Gauge 1 live steam" or "Gauge 1 Passenger coaches" on Ebay.uk and tell us what you find? The query filtering is lack-luster to say the least.

Now go to Ebay.de and use these descriptions and you'll be favorably disposed to what you see:

"Echtdampflok Spur 1"
"Personenwagen"
"Schnellzugwagen"
"Dampflok"
"Live Steam"
"Aster Steam (or dampf, or dampflok)

Good stuff there.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

@ Charles . . .

The SNCF 141R kit, NOS, sold before I had an opportunity to offer a real bid.
I found another built-up SNCF 141R, but may not purchase it, because . . .

I have a lead on an un-steamed and factory built 231E Nord. I will know more in a couple of days.

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I have some J&M parts--and Diaphragms, I believe....I have to look for them. Please send me an email with your address.


Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
Pretty soon you will be watching so vintage train videos such as:

La Bete Humaine- as classic with much French train action!!

The Nord is one of our favorites, so if it comes about you might bring it along upon your visit.




StackTalk said:


> @ Charles . . .
> 
> The SNCF 141R kit, NOS, sold before I had an opportunity to offer a real bid.
> I found another built-up SNCF 141R, but may not purchase it, because . . .
> ...


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Another 141R for sale on Ebay as of yesterday . . .

* * * * *

At the suggestion of David, I have reached out to John Waggott and by this time have had a couple of very pleasant exchanges with John.

As he put it to me:

"We made over 10,000 models in Gauge one, and now it's quite hard to find any of them for sale."

John is selling some coaches for a friend. As luck (and keen interest) would have it, the PRR heavyweights he had and the Wagon-Lits coaches were sold out first.

He does have available some German model coach sets, Rheingold, DB 28 Express coaches and DR 6-wheel clerestory coaches and for attractive prices from my point of view. If there is interest contact John directly.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

On the Ebay.de site two Southern Pacific J&M coaches that I have been watching sold over the weekend.

The SP Diner sold for $1,464.20 (converted from Euro.)

The SP 1203 heavyweight sold for $1,873.90 (also converted from Euro.)

I received another package today, so another few images later or tomorrow.

I had a request for pictures of the "Catskill Valley," which was taken off the market after I did not purchase it along with the other New York Central coaches I was offered. 

One of the NYC coaches I could have purchased for much less is now listed on Ebay.de for $2,008.23 and not even an observation car! It is Pullman car "Troy."

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> Another 141R for sale on Ebay as of yesterday . . .
> 
> * * * * *
> 
> ...


 What Ebay site was that Joe. I see an HO for sale


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Ebay.de is where you will find the Spur 1 (Gauge 1) coaches.

Search for Personenwagen and set the filter for highest first (*höchster zuerst* )


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Art,
Germany.
http://tinyurl.com/mo2o99g
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Art,
> Germany.
> http://tinyurl.com/mo2o99g
> Regards,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


I misunderstood, 141R versus carriages.

With 8 days to go and already 6 bidders and 12 bids, this particular black 141R is going to go for top dollar.

Joe


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This is a J&M thread so back on topic . . .

Attached are some images of New York Central "Catskill Valley."

This one was up on Ebay.de for about 24 hours and then taken down unsold, as it was to be sold as part of a set only.

Price was "up there."

I received two coaches today, so after work I will open the boxes and see what is inside. 

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

On the Ebay.de site two Southern Pacific J&M coaches that I have been watching sold over the weekend.

The SP Diner sold for $1,464.20 (converted from Euro.)

The SP 1203 heavyweight sold for $1,873.90 (also converted from Euro.)

============

I believe the SP 1203 is NOT J&M, clearly not a heavyweight. It is a 60 foot Harriman coach, probably produced by Finescale Locomotive Co of Marlboro Wilts UK.

Typically very good brass models with full interior. IIRC they produced a coach, combine, and baggage car in at least three different SP liveries.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Jim,

Misidentified the one that sold for $1,873.90

It was a Southern Pacific J&M heavyweight, but not the 1203 car:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2MlgxNjAw/z/pGMAAOxyrrpTiw-9/$_57.JPG

Hope the link comes out.

Your experienced eye has evidently identified the SP 1203 car more accurately than the seller who thinks its a J&M Model. 

SP 1203 sold for $1,464.20

The fellow also has a J&M heavyweight "Troy" for sale for just over $2,000.00. Let's see whether he gets his price.

Cheers,

Joe


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## golden arrow (Dec 31, 2013)

Hi! StackTalk 
if you are interested I am selling my Aster Chapelon ; a french guy reserved it but he seems to be actually without money.... So if you are interested you can email me [email protected]
I have also an Aster SNCF 140 C and an Aster UNBUILT SNCF 150 X kit. 
Marc Lafleur ( G1MRA 3665)


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

I own five Finescale Southern Pacific Harrimans, including two coaches and can verify that the coach shown in the photo appears to be a Finescale product. There is a brass identification plate under each Finescale car identifying the manufacturer, so a buyer should be able to verify the source. The ebay sales price of $1464.20 is just about the price of a new car, including shipping from England to the US.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Marc,

Thank you for stopping by. I have sent an email to you concerning the Nord.

Jeff . . .

I appreciate your identifying the Finescale product. Between you and Jim, those of us who do not know how to recognize a Harriman have learned something - always a good outcome.

I don't know who bought the one that was sold, but I have purchased 7 J&Ms from this supplier and have received six so far and I am satisfied.

I suppose the reasons one may purchase a second-hand or used product for the price of a new product would be . . .

Ignorance about what one is buying, or,
One does not wish to wait months to have something built to order, or,
The particular item is no longer being manufactured.

In any case, the seller sold the item and has at least one other item that may also be a Finescale item . . . in addition to some J&Ms and Fulgurex branded PLM coaches.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

When one talks prices for gauge one stock one has to look at the condition the cars are in. If a guy sells mint condition (I mean really mint) in original boxes the going price for J&M Pullmans (either continental or US) will be around 1200€ to 1500€, but if you are willing to do some work on them you may find them at a cheaper price also through friends. So don't think you were sheared, if they were in good condition. I dont feel they roll badly at all (although David Leeches bogies are very good runners too). The problem with these cars is they are heavy as heck! I have a scratch built Nord atlantic one of JVR first multicylinder locomotives for Gauge one and thus a doubly historical engine (the prototype was a very succesfull loco and the model also) it will handle three or five J&M pullmans but I would like to do the "Oiseau Bleu" Pullman consist or the "Etoile du Nord" pullman train which these locos hauled untill World war two; but they had two couplages (a couplage is a kitchen pullman and a straight pullman, in Wagon lits parlance) plus two baggages. So I am considering rebuilding them with aluminum chassis to gain weight. Or ordering some of David's and that would surely cure the problem. Weight is an issue, if like me you come from model railroading and want to run correct consists with a particular loco.
By the way I am the happy man John Waggot sold his pennsy heavyweights too, Youknow what, I'm happy!


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

> By the way I am the happy man John Waggott sold his Pennsy heavyweights too, You know what, I'm happy!


 It's a small world this gauge 1 live steam world, eh?

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

The reason I don't have my J&M Pennsy cars any longer is exactly what du-bousquetaire mentioned....My K4 was unhappy pulling 4 of them.....So, before you buy a lot of them make sure your engine will pull them.....

By the way Marc, whatever Joe offers you, I'll give you a $100 more...

Sam


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

boilingwater said:


> Joe,
> 
> The reason I don't have my J&M Pennsy cars any longer is exactly what du-bousquetaire mentioned....My K4 was unhappy pulling 4 of them.....So, before you buy a lot of them make sure your engine will pull them.....
> 
> ...


Not to worry, Sam, I can always put a small electric motor in the K4 tender and not tell anyone about it. 

The stack noise, hissing and boiling water should cover up the gear noise. 

It'll be our secret. No one else has to know.

Cheers,

Joe

PS: Sam is only kidding, Marc. He meant to say that he will offer you $100 less than I will.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I just read an earlier thread about la Bête Humaine, Charles this is not the NORD railway of France but the ex ETAT (or Western region) Paris Rouen Le Havre line shot by Renoir in 1938 (just the year of the creation of the SNCF as a mater of fact on some scenes shot at Le Havre terminus you can see some of the OCEM coaches going by marked ETAT then the next one is SNCF and so on) the ETAT pacifics were copied from the Paris Orléans original 3500 series Pacifics (with some modifications: Bogie, Bissel truck, Belpaire firebox on the PO radial on the ETAT (because of close clearances the engineer couldn't have had good vision with a Belpair) and domes stack cab and platework as well as tender.) Now these were the PO pacifics that Chapelon modified later with the well known success, and bought by the NORD as the PO was in the midst of a giant electrification scheme then. As luck would have it, the ETAT which had a brilliant director then, emulated the PO and modified a certain numlber of its own ETAT pacifics (themselves copies of the PO ones) à la Chapelon with one class the 231 D with Dabeg Lenz valves on the LP valves and the other the DD class with DABEG valves on HP and LP cylinders double kylchap and Houlet superheaters making them into virtually identical engines to the Chapelon pacifics. It is this class that was named G after the SNCF instead of DD (double dabeg) which is preserved today in Sotteville and should run again shortly, I had the chance to ride it for a 150 km. and beleive me those engines can move! Now if you are still following, you will observe that there is a complete Ramsbottom water pan sequence on the film, that is a featur of the ETAT lines and engines, the NORD did not have water troughs, so developped the large De Caso tenders which by the way is a French version of a Vanderbilt tender, our clearances being smaller we had to adapt the water tank into a rectangular shape to fit in the French clearances. Talking of which the Paris Rouen Le havre line was built by the British contractor Locke (who built the GNR too) and has near British clearances thus no Belpair! smaller than the rest of the SNCF. Talking about Railroad movies have you seen Danger lights? it's shot on the Milwaukee electrified zone and even features a tug of war between a bi-polar and a mikado! Check it out.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Danger Lights- 5 hours we will never make it in time. Clear the rails, I can do it.... great run all the way to Chicago and the miracle of modern medicine (with the hope to survive such an incident not to get away the plot or ending).


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting are per videos of K4 and J&M coaches do not seem to be a problem (0.6% grade) probably a bit of suspension work needed:

http://youtu.be/mb5iHn1elW0?list=UUkTmy9xN-_F-_UGqL0dW4PQ

http://youtu.be/AjPY137wS5k?list=UUkTmy9xN-_F-_UGqL0dW4PQ

http://youtu.be/K_DCtxkSHys?list=UUkTmy9xN-_F-_UGqL0dW4PQ





StackTalk said:


> Not to worry, Sam, I can always put a small electric motor in the K4 tender and not tell anyone about it.
> 
> The stack noise, hissing and boiling water should cover up the gear noise.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

Accucraft shows "Southern Pacific 72-IC-1 & 2 Class Suburban Passenger Coaches" in their "Models Under Consideration" list under the "News" pull-down on their website. Send Accucraft an email indicating your interest in similar Pullman-built or Standard Steel Car Co - built passenger cars of the 1920's with specifics of cars and railroads that could be included in the build, that are close enough in detail to the SP cars so as to be credible with just paint and lettering changes. Accucraft is more likely to manufacture these if they can establish appeal beyond just those of us who model SP.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Jeff,

Sounds like a very reasonable little research project. Since no one is making new heavyweights, the market for Accucraft, such that it is, will not be fragmented at least.

Charles,

I am not quite finished putting my K4 back together yet. The only thing holding me up is matching the paint.

. . . And it hasn't seen a track - ever - never having been steamed before I refurbished it. The only thing I can add subjectively is that, using finger pressure against the rollers it seems to have as much motive power as my Castle - or more perhaps, so I am anticipating that it too will handle a rake of five heavyweights with no issue. 

I have one J&M PRR heavyweight coming to me and if I were only willing to part with a not so small fortune, I could have had a set of four more PRR J&Ms.

In time, perhaps a more reasonable offer will come along?

du-bousquetaire . . .

More inspiration:






Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

More good information here on Pacifics of the Etat:

http://pacificvapeurclub.free.fr/uk_pacific_etat.htm

and here:

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/etat/materiel/231.htm

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I don't remember that Aster had such a dramatic sound system on the Nord when I owned it...:.nice engine. My friend in France did reply and is looking but apparently that is no longer needed, true?

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam,

I have not heard from either my Italian friend or our new French friend as yet, so I would like to keep all channels of communications - and possibilities - open until fantasy turns into reality.

Nothing real as yet.

Thanks,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually compounds had a softer exhaust than two cylinder simple expansion locomotives, notably because the steam having expanded twice first in the HP cylinders then in the LP ones left very little pressure at the exhaust. That is why Chapelon devised his exhaust system (the kylchap), to get more depression in the smokebox with a soft exhaust. Added bonus: There was less counterpressure with his exhaust, so the loco gained quite a bit of horsepower. But the smoke got in the way of the drivers view up front, which is why so many French engines got smoke deflectors.
That video is from a real classic Joe and it shows us how the Chapelon pacifics were when they ran on the Nord. I am glad it is now on the net, I knew it because I had a railfan friend who collects old films and he showed it to me. Thanks for sharing it with us Joe.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

My pleasure . . .

I've lately been enjoying reading about all things Chapelon. 

Recently (for me) discovered link here:

http://thierry.stora.free.fr/english/achap_01.htm

From the reading I have been doing about our genuine compound scale models, it appears as if they start out with only the HP cylinder(s) functional - developing power - and after a short while, the LP cylinders warm up, clear out and "kick in." I suspect this applies to full scale to some extent as well.

The most recent NL&J discusses a three cylinder compound where the 'tween frames cylinder is HP, so the loco would need either a simpling valve or else a push to get started - a push being more practical - which is true of most of our locos anyway. 

In the Wiki, it is noted that Chapelon achieved the rather remarkable efficiency of 12% on some of his locomotives! Ouch, with respect to the other 88% 

It may be that I have a Chapelon compound with which to play soon. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

How about the 241P video:






Of course a am not fully knowledgeable relative to 241 A...P but Joe will get me there.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Compounds had a *starting valve*, this was used to shut off the exhaust from the HP cylinders from reaching the LP ones and admiting live steam at an intermediate pressure to the steam chest of the LP cylinders. Thus the LP cylinders got live steam direct from the boiler giving them a much greater power for a short time to start a heavy train. This could also be used when a loco was having difficulties handling a heavy train on a grade. As a matter of fact on the N & W Y6B compound mallets it was called a *booster* and not a starting valve! On Aster compound it was found that the added complication would only serve to boost the price up so they didn't get the gadget. Compounds could be two cylinder, three cylinder or four cylinder, (Chapelon even anticipated a 6 cylinder compound which never got beyond the drawing board) 
Richard Abbot has built a very fine model of the Chapelon 2-4-2 A1 a three cylinder compound, he too explains that after designing and trying out a starting valve he found it useless so took it off. I find that my Chapelon pacific or my 2-3-2 U 1 start very well also without them, However when the compounding cuts in watch out they really take off. Very usefull when handling a rake of heavy J & M pullmans (which brings us back to the begginning of this thread...).
Of course one has to know that J V Riemsdijk was a Chapelon disciple, that's how we became friends originally and what brought us together, and that's why he was so keen about developping multicylinder engines so we could see out his theories in practice. His book: Compound Locomotives at pendragon press, is one of the few English speaking books that explains it all and in these days of highly incompetent authors about the steam locomotive, it is certainly the best read on the steam locomotive in these past 20 years. It must also be said that he did a huge amount of work on George Carpenters English translation of Chapelon masterwork la Locomotive à Vapeur. This should be of interest to many American Gauge one fans to know just in what good hands you have fallen in joining the G1MRA! Right up to his death we would talk about the latest developments in Switzerland with new modern rack engines that outperformed diesels both on fuel economy, maintenance and gas emissions. One must also know that although compounds are more complex engines (by that I mean more parts to maintain) they had a certain number of interesting advantages over simples, such as near perfect balancing of moving parts, less loss in the cylinders through condensation and blow by etc; which made them quite economical. The Paris Orléans whom Chapelon worked for, had some Alco 2 cylinder pacifics to compare: At first they gave excelent performances, then slowly they started to beat themselves to pieces. In those days there were no Franklin journal boxes and the axle load didn't permit to use American heavy bar frames as thick as they should be. Not so with the compounds. As a matter of fact the compounds which were built earlier than the Alcos lasted into the late sixties and one of their last assignments were tests up to 187km/h pushing electrics for pantograph tests. In the US with much higher axle loads, frames, rods and bearings could be beefed up to handle two cylinders and last, not in Europe. Sorry tha


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Whgat I wanted to say here disapeared suddenly, this seems to happen often on this forum... It was: That I was sorry to have taken this thread on J & M coaches so far from it's original starting point.
Good night every body
du-bousquetaire


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

du-bousquetaire . . .

No need to apologize, especially while in the process of providing us with some very fine information, not easy to come by through "garden variety" means - pun intended 

Besides, it is I who brought the Nord and Chapelon side-topics into the J&M thread. Additional comments are most welcome. Anyone who has sufficient interest to read this thread about J&M Model carriages is likely to be equally pleased with the sidebar discussions.

Meanwhile . . .

The hunt continues . . .

No new J&Ms have been sighted recently, though to reiterate, for those interested in Rheingold, 4 to 6 car rakes are available with some of the coaches in 'like new' condition and with original packaging over at Ebay.de. Some Mitropa Schlafwagen as well. Not my cup'o java.

This week I am refurbishing the CIWL Fourgon 1262 P that I recently received. It looked good enough as it was, but I wanted to repaint the shed roof and the baggage container roofs and while I am at it, I will refinish the wood platforms that support the four containers. For those who have no idea what I am speaking about, photos will follow at some point.

I once thought that inter-modal containerization started only in the second half of the 20th century, but these containerized baggage cars have shown me the concept began earlier on.

A blue and cream CIWL 'voiture salon' came in in good condition last week and I am waiting only for the one PRR heavyweight.

I fear one aspect of this thread may prove to be counter-productive.

The scarcity of the heavyweights in particular may prompt some folks to hold on to them who may otherwise have put them up for sale?

Should we delete this thread then?

Just kidding. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
This plan is for a 1927 version.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks, David,

The J&M Model is pretty much spot-on to what we see in the drawing. 

The only exception my eye picked out is that the sides of the shack or structure which are at right angles to the direction of travel are smooth and without the wood stiffener detail, but these sides can scarcely be observed with the containers in place. John's car is very well detailed and as you may know the wooden container structures are rather heavy metal castings with good detail molded in, one result of which is that this is a very heavy vehicle. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

These cars were introduced around with the creation of the Golden Arow service, the idea was that luggage and packages would be sealed inside them at either Paris or London and would be taken off the trucks at Calais to be placed by a crane in the ship's hold and so on on the English side to London all customs would be done at either terminals. I am not sure of the date at which they were introduced could be as early as WW 1. There were also SNCF trucks for ordinary (non CIWLT) service and even one postal one with the center cabin in postal red (close to Midland red). The Wagon lits ones didn't last too long after WW 2, but the SNCF ones did untill the sixties if I recal. I am not too familiar with what the Southern used on the English side, so I won't add anything on that. The drawing that David printed is from the revue de l'AFAC, the ink drawing is by Lamarche, its actually made on a board that you scratch to get the black, he was a champion art that art and a very nice man too. It states that these trucs were put in service in 1927 for the Golden Arrow and that they were pulled out of service in 1938. Meaning that the Chapelons didn't handle them very long. By the way Golder Arrow and Sud Express Pullmans were painted brown and cream untill 1932, and Blue and cream after that as the Chapelons came onto the nord around 1935, note that they never hauled Brown and cream pullmans! Unfortunatly the Sud Express Pullmans were of a different window arangement as the PO Chapelons did haul these in brown and cream. Iam very picky with passenger consists. Take care!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks again for the additional information.

I have seen these particular baggage cars modeled in brown and cream, blue and cream and also all blue. Mine is of the earliest variety, but changing the color would not be daunting as the "boxes" stay the same and only the cabin changes.

I have read that the baggage car is placed near the locomotive traveling in one direction and at the tail end in the opposite direction (not recalling which is which,) but that often there were two such baggage cars, one on each end. I haven't found a car like these for the SR side.

* * *

Now we have a bit of a conundrum which is not too hard to resolve though you may be cross with me. .

I was aware that the CIWL Pullmans went from chocolat and cream to blue and cream in 1932, but, if I understood you correctly, the 231E would have been used on the Nord for Fleche D'Or after 1932 only?

So they came brown from the Sud Express where they did pull cars with complimentary coloUr schemes.

Hmmmmmm.

Here is how we resolve problems like these: We take a page from the David Leech playbook and we run "heritage" trains being happy to take what we can get. 

In the relevant Youtube videos I have seen so far, the Chapelon Nord seems mostly to be pulling the older brown and cream cars (often those that are not Pullmans but some Pullmans as well,) with the odd half-blue one here and there.

Given the scarcity of these J&M Model CIWL Pullmans, I feel fortunate to have anything available which is even vaguely suitable, but grateful for the historical information all the same. I am still Nord-less, but I have heard from Marc, so maybe one may head my way.

Note above that I managed to work J&M back into the thread after all. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
For the British side, they just used regular four wheels flat wagons.
Nothing special at all.
Regards,
David


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I have found photos of earlier French trucks used in the early twenties so prior to the Golden arrow service, and one pre W.W.1 photo showing the 4-4-4 with the water tube boiler hauling a four wheel flat car with four containers on it, like in Britain. But this service certainly predates the Golden arrow. The brown versus blue Pullman issue is just rivet counting, but I indulge in abit of that. I have one also that I must repaint and it will be a brown one. so I will be stuck with the same problem eventually. (the lining being in three D and very elaborate on the brown version, I cannot just paint it in blue. Darn it. Perhaps I can make a swap. Ah, if we could only get another life to live. All these things we have to do...


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I am probably going to start a Nord thread at some point and then we can struggle with whether or not we transfer some of the J&M posts over there to the new Nord thread. 

The new thread will have start off with me wondering out loud whether I will ever own a Nord of my own and then, of course, if I do ever get one, I will have to discuss every aspect of it as I take it apart and then put it back together again.

I just heard from another Frenchman that I am not permitted to use a chocolat and crème 231E loco to haul any Fleche D'Or carriages. OK. No one has to hit me over the head with a brick. 

What's a poor Yank going to do then?

I am only permitted to haul bleu and crème cars and even then, I will have to eventually paint my loco green. <scratches head; blinks a lot.>

So it seems that a good guideline to running authentic trains is to make sure your locomotive coloUr never matches your passenger coach coloUr.  

It may not be a perfect rule, but it is apparently a good starting point. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> So it seems that a good guideline to running authentic trains is to make sure your locomotive coloUr never matches your passenger coach coloUr.
> 
> It may not be a perfect rule, but it is apparently a good starting point.
> 
> ...


Well.....The Southern Pacific and their Daylights did it.
The LMS and Southern in the UK did it, and I'm sure if I had the time I could list a lot more.
Or are you talking JUST French?
Well a 232U1 is green and would pull a green train?
Or are you just talking Nord?
It's your train - do what looks good to you.
Cheers,
David


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Once again, a poor attempt at humor, David ;-)

I am definitely going to keep my "day job," at least for a while yet.

Yes, we do have the orange and black locos and consists and the all red combinations and some all-green combinations as you say, without too much thought being put into it. Grays and blacks, probably some all blue as well. Rheingold comes to mind and the Bayerische.

I did have in mind the chocolat and crème variety when making the post though.

* * *

In the next days I will put a couple photos up of the Fourgon and also the PRR "Edgar Allan Poe" heavyweight.

It is a beautiful monster dwarfing the CIWL coaches. it only takes one of these to make a consist.

(You want to bet someone posts a reply explaining to me why you can't call a single coach a consist.  )

As a new guy around here, I get to state the obvious once in a while. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually the chocolat Nord 2-3-1 E did haul the blue and cream pullmans for a few years they were purchased by the Nord and arrived on the property around 1935 and right up to 1938 they did haul this train. It is also most likely that they kept their choicolat livery through a good part of the war years as there was quite a shortage during the war of everything including paint. I have the same problem running an MTH tuscan red F 3 or (EF 15) when I kow that all were Brunswick green. But who knows that over here in France? Besides it reminds me of riding behind Tuscan E8 on early Amtrack and Pen central years, it's my pike and I like it that way. One day (probably when an E unit comes out in 1/32 scale I will get around to redoing the marker lights, perhaps a passenger pilotand repaint the unit in Brunswick loco enamel, but untill then it will be tuscan. About Tuscan red is there a knowledgeable soul out there on this thread who could tell me if the tuscan used by J & M for their Pullmans, smoker, observation and quite incorrect diner is correct for pre 1938. I know that the trucks and underframes where olive green and that the window sashes were an orange red colour (probably tolluline red) but I dont know if their Tuscan is ok it looks very maroon to me? Too bad you aren't in Europe Joe we could do some nice steam ups as Pennsy and Nord are my favourites too.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

I understand that the Nord did haul the blue and crème, but not the chocolat and crème. My problem stems from the knowledge that the chocolat Nord did not haul the chocolat and crème cars, which is a da_m_n shame, if you ask me! 

Authenticity versus Accuracy in simulation.

I am a proponent of the notion that things need to be "authentic," but not necessarily and absolutely accurate.

Years ago, I was active in the Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator community and I did some pro bono development work. I was one among many to do so. The flightsim community is (or was) larger than the Gauge 1 community to be sure - probably a couple of million users and tens of thousands of developers at one time. MS eventually pulled the plug on it - not enough money in it to sustain their ACES Studio game development department and the "movement" began to die.

Anyway . . .

Rivet counters. One can find them anywhere! "Your camouflage pattern differs from this source "x" in that too much brown, not enough green and I think the diameter of the inner circle of your RAAF roundel is proportionally about 5.5% smaller than it needs to be when compared with the overall size for the period September through November as seen in this photograph taken of 75 Squadron, Port Moresby. The particular oxide primer used in the wheel wells was probably lighter in color as well, though I do agree the effects of oil and hydraulic fluid sprays were likely to obscure the differences. 

* * * * *

Charles mentioned something I have read elsewhere in that the green color Aster used on the K4s is not the original shade as used by PRR. 

Really? I bet no two buckets of paint were exactly the same in hue and saturation back then anyway. Some say that Aster should have chosen a "blacker" green. Well I have shopped this color in a number of conventional places recently and the green that Aster used is already "blacker" than anything I can find ready-made, so far. Dark green, hunter green, forest green are all much brighter and greener than what Aster used. . . . 

Is the olive-like green of the undercarriage on the *J&M model PRR heavyweights * either dark enough or olive enough? 

{I bet some readers thought I would be unable to work J&M back into my post.  }

I think this is a silly thing to worry about, but I do realize some folks believe that such issues are vitally important.

Some photos coming soon.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Simon and Joe,
Not that I know too much about the NORD, but my one and only French railway book shows 231.E 1-20 being built 1909 - 14 & 1934.
231.E 21 - 48 being built 1936 - 37.
Wagons-Lits Pullmans had the brown and cream Pullman livery until 1932, so is it not possible that locos from 1-20 may have pulled them?
So, if so, just change the Aster model from E 22, to an earlier number, or were the locos quite different between the batches?
Just a thought, or maybe not!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

Simon would know more than I do . . . and I also received some input from Marc (Golden Arrow.)

What I understand is that the 231E was used on the Sud Express in its brown livery hauling cars of complimentary coloUr until an evaluation was performed at some point for the Nord and that the 231E only started being used on the Nord in 1934 or 1935, after the 1932 CIWL change from brown to blue?

Or so I am told.

When one finds videos and images of the 231E on the Web, more often than not, one finds them running with chocolat and crème stock.

I much prefer chocolat to Roquefort!

. . . though I will eat blue cheese now and then as well.

{I will be waiting now for someone to post: "Joe, did you know that Roquefort is actually a bit more green than blue, or perhaps either blue-green or green-blue, so your analogy is less than perfect." }

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
Take the side cylinder decorative covers off and have them scanned at a paint or body shop they will be able to do the Aster color in a custom blend of a pint.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Good suggestion, Charles.

Thank you

~Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Charles said:


> Joe
> Take the side cylinder decorative covers off and have them scanned at a paint or body shop they will be able to do the Aster color in a custom blend of a pint.


Charles,
My experience doing that was a little painful!
I had thought that they (body shop paint suppliers - maybe some can, and maybe some can't) would just scan with their machine, and the computer would tell them how to mix the paint.
I was a little surprised when the operator said, well not really. 
It will give them a series of exact, or closest matches, of any known automotive paint from over the years.
So for NORD brown, it may be a 1947 Cadillac, or a 1956 Citroen, or whatever!
Then, if there is a talented person there, he can add to that colour to get an exact match - maybe!
After hanging around for an hour watching him add a little of this and that and putting a smear of paint on my sample, I finally had to leave and left it with them.
Returning the next day, he said that he had done it.
It looked good until I took it outside, and it was nothing like a match.
Left it with him again and returned a few days later and he had got it 'pretty good'.
Maybe I'm too picky, or at least my eyes are.
Of course, unless you are partially painting something that is already painted, a close match is probably okay, as unless you have two different paints side by side, you really don't notice the difference, if you see what I mean!
Perhaps you have found a really good body shop.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
We recently did some work on the Aster Mallard and the match was as close as the original thus better than bare metal. Barring stripping the entire engine for small areas blending the paint is the best one can do.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

My brother, being an artistic type, manages to take some different coloured paints and mixes them so that it will match his tinplate locos and coaches perfectly.
It is a learned talent, but I think years of art school helped somewhat.
Certainly better than bare metal!
Somewhere, I have the little flat can of paint that came with the Mallard.
The paint's probably no good, but the can must be worth something to the Aster collectors out there!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

When I first received my Castle kit, I noticed that the two plastic containers of touch-up paint, one black, one green were bone dry. I mentioned this to Hans and he laughed and told me that Aster has not shipped a bottle of wet paint in years. Basically I would have to suck it up.

The only thing that really needed green paint was the little side details on the GWR relief valve ornamental escutcheon - whatever the dam_n_ thing is called. 

Well, I spent hours on line researching and the nearest consensus I found was that I should use Land Rover Brooklands Green.

OK, but research turned up that there are two such colours, #334 Brooklands Green and # 569 Brooklands Green. I had both custom mixed for about $16 each and waited two weeks for what I needed - an eye dropper full of the right color.

When the paint finally arrived, neither was even close. Turns out, the GWR Castle uses a completely different shade of green than my BR(WR) Castle.

I went to a craft shop and bought a couple of $.50 cent bottles of acrylic and got a near-perfect match.

Fast forward to the K4. Back then, Aster supplied paint in tins and not the plastic crap they now use. I have a tin and it sounds like it may have half an ouch or less in it, but it still is liquid after all these years. So now I went out and bought an air brush, but I never used one as yet and so, before I waste that rare and precious bit of 30 year-old paint - it could be orange for all I know as I haven't opened it yet - I have to teach myself how to use the air brush.

But . . .

I may be OK yet.

If I could have found the paint in an auto store, I would have been happy. ;-)

Cheers,

Joe

PS: The two plastic jars of paint I had custom mixed for the Castle @ $16 about three months ago are already bone dry.

PPS: I may have stumbled into the wrong hobby for me.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Feel reasured Joe and David, I am not really a rivet counter. But just a fellow who may spend anywhere up to a couple of hundred hours on a model and that is just about what I can usually spare in a summer vaccation. So when I paint a model, I try to have it right, as much as research can permit. As a matter of fact research is part of the fun of making a model. Here in France we have so little to work with in gauge one, we have to build a good deal, much like the US gauge one scene. About the Chapelons sure the Paris Orléans 3500 were built in 1909. But they were rebuilt by Chapelmon in the P O Tours St. Pierre shops starting 1927 (Most in 1929)as most steam enthusiast know, then they were tested on the Nord in 1932-33), in comparisson with an EST 4-8-2 and a PLM 4-8-2 which incidently is precisely the 2-4-1 C1 which was the prototype of the 2-4-1 P built by the PLM in that time. Both mountains had a tractive effort slightly over that of the chapelon, about an equivalent power, and used a lot more fuel and water. So the Nord opted for a series of Chapelon to be purchased from the Paris Orléans who built them in the above shops from 1933-34 and they were delivered to the Nord in 1934. Then the Nord had a suplementary series of 28 built new by private industry which were delivered to the Nord in 1936-1938. It is this series that Aster modeled. The tender on the ortiginal PO ones had a very esthetic oval section coal hopper quite diferent from the Aster model (see photos of the Rivarossi HO model) It is actually quite an undertaking to convert an Aster to one of the original PO series. Chris Ludlow who was our chairman at G1MRA untill recently made a very nice model of an original PO one but from the second batch for the PO with a slightly different front (slanting) He is the only one that I know who did one, but their may be others. 
One thing one has to know about French railway practice is that it was quite common for one company to borrow the drawings of one loco designed by one company to build another series for their own (other) company. The nord atlantics were copied by the MIDI, the EST, then the PO and the ETAT made copies of a slightly enlarged version with inboard framed truck, then the Belgian, the Prussian, the Great Western and the Pennsy had copies of the PO one made. Same with the original 3500 PO pacifics they were copied by the Etat for its third series of Pacifics but the ETAT did quite a few modifications on them: leading truck, trailing truck of their own design, and replaced the Belpaire with a radiant fire box because of the short clearance on the old Ouest lines built by British engineers and to the British loading gauge, afraid the driver couldn't see ahead! of course the ETAT put its own, cab, safety valves, domes and stacks on them as well as tenders making this loco hardly recogniseable as an ex PO design, yet the boiler, the frames the motor and rivers are identical. and would make an interesting kit bash for the hardy.

But to get back to the Aster Chapelons they never hauled the brown and cream pullmans most likely (I say that because you never know, if one brown and cream had just been coming out of general overhaul in 1932 it might very well have kept its brown livery untill 1936...). Now if only someone would come out with a Nord Super pacific we would be graced with the right engine. Bockholt made a few many years ago but they are electrics, and way over in price.

Any one have an enlightened opinion on the J & M Tuscan red? Of course I know because I remember post war tuscan red cars that it's wrong for the post war cars we knew, but what about the pre fleet of modernism scheme? Could it be correct? As far as I have read having joined recently the PRRT&HS Brunswick green or as the Pennsy called it dark green loco enamel would be considerably darker that the Aster K4 green, perhaps the Accucraft T1 is a closer shade it looks black but when seen in broad sunlight one sees it bronze colour and it is quite "greener" than the chassis which is black. But I doubt that I will repaint it that colour as I think it looks smashing in this lighter shade of green. I think I read somewhere that the Aster people used the Great Western shade of "Brunswick green" as reference and that was how they f... it up!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

On the Chapelons . . .

David sent a B&W undated photo to me and it is difficult to determine the colors one may be seeing in an old B&W photo, but the cars could have easily been chocolat and crème as well as blue and crème. However; the Fourgon truck was a solid color and that means it had to be blue . . . and if it were blue the other cars were more likely to have contained blue rather than brown.

All the above means is that I shall have to take liberties one day when I actually have a Chapelon with which to work!

After reading the information you provided above, Simon, I recall that; for all of rigorous application of the scientific method and engineering prowess that Chapelon added to the age of steam locomotives, he was never allowed to build his own from the ground up, so to speak. Rather he had to make do with adding his design work to rebuilds.

From the Wiki:



> Despite his abilities and track record, he was never presented the opportunity to design a class of entirely-new locomotives that were produced in any numbers. He was continually stymied by railway management and politicians, and often his superbly performing locomotives were treated as embarrassments by his superiors, because they showed up the poor performance of the officially approved locomotives.


 I cannot give you any help on the Tuscan red at the moment Simon, but I have started a small collection of books and I do have a couple pertinent to the K4 specifically. I doubt I have any info on color though. 

Now back to John & Marilyn Model coaches . . .

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

So . . .

When one purchases items from part-way 'round the world, there can always be some issues and Edgar Allan Poe did suffer . . .

He lost his cousin-wife in her youth and he died at the age of 40 from some mysterious illness after having wandered the streets of Baltimore in a state of delirium.

Wait . . . I am off track again!

What I meant to say was that the J&M Model PRR "Edgar Alllan Poe" arrived damaged and that I was, at first, a sad panda.











The fellow who had packed it up had gotten six other models to me undamaged, but the heavyweight was too long at 33 inches for a box only slightly larger.


Well, it could have been worse.

There was absolutely no damage to the paint-work and the condition of the paint was very good overall.

I did make the purchase, aware that there was something odd in the glazing though, and this proved to be an issue upon receipt.











I suspected the glass had loosened and shifted on one side and I was correct.

Continued below . . .


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Well . . .

Putting the end of the metalwork back into shape was a small exercise in patience that paid off nicely.

The shifting glass turned out to be shifting acrylic and all that shifting back and forth scratched it up pretty effectively, but having the right tool to repair scratched acrylic allowed me to completely remove the scratches and so here is what we now have:













and












The right tool for the job is . . .












Continued below . . .


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

One of the things I like about the layout is that it will be quite easy to replace the grain of rice bulbs with warm L.E.D.s one day and to hide a rechargeable battery in the loo or some other compartment:












Finally . . .

A couple more shots showing the color appearance variation depending upon lighting.

Here with a combination of incandescent and spot LED lighting:












And with the sun streaming through a window:












Now who has an observation car and a couple more coaches to sell me for a good price?

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hey Joe: its in pretty good shape, I had seen that the glazing and window panes were out of sink in the add's photo, you did a good restoration job. These cars are worth a bit of time and effort they are 30 years old now... I am very interested in "the right tool for the job" what is this magic product and where can I find it, I need it for some other scratch built cars, I have made. Express NORD coaches, these are not the same as the "torpille" or Rapide NORD coaches, they have a much rounder body( a bit like May West), and are typical of many NORD expresses and yet nobody makes them. On most photos of Nord steam you see them with their very round bodies and doors in every second compartment similar to English coaches. As I had to have a space between the interior decoration and the body on account of the turn under in the lower part of the body I used thick plexiglass I had for glazing but it was a pretty scratched piece of plexiglass so I would be very interested in this miracle product. Congratulations on Edgar allen Poe.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

I just want to mention that I am enjoying your participation in this thread. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge of history as well as of the hobby with the rest of us here . . . and a few diversions from the main path . . . and sidebar conversations are all good in my book.

The Edgar Allan Poe cleaned up pretty nice after about three weeknight evening's work, doing other things as well, of course. It looks beautiful to my eye and as I say, despite the repairable damage there was no damage to the paint, except that one of the privacy window panes was scraped off about 50% and I painted it back on by hand. Now that you know this you will spot which window, but I am satisfied with the job I did anyway. 

One has to weigh the time invested versus the result and stop at the point of diminishing returns. I tend toward perfectionism at times, but a true perfectionist can never be satisfied and therefore must be an unhappy person . . . and who wants to live an unhappy life by choice anyway!

The acrylic polish is called Novus.

http://www.novuspolish.com/

It is sold by Amazon among other places in the States.

And, if the scratches are not too deep, it removes them entirely like magic. Even deep scratches can be completely removed if one is patient enough and one would not be in this hobby without patience anyway, so you are prequalified to use it!

It's a progressive process like any polishing or finishing process. One starts with #1 and goes to #3, which is just a plastic cleanser.

It is important to buy the pads as well as the chemicals because the pads are designed to assist the abrasive without adding to the danger of further abrasion.

Now off to dinner with Maureen.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks Joe I will order some. I agree with this perfectionist phylosophy, one has to keep within reasons otherwise you can go crazy. this thread stimulated me to finally (after owning the kit of parts for over ten years) finish my third J1M continental pullman, a Fèche d'or one. I had bought it at bargain price from a friend as an unpainted primed kit. My dilemna was that I needed that type of pullman (a Flèche d'or without kitchen) but in blue livery (to use with my Chapelon, and because I feel that you either have a full four car set of Brown pulmans + the truck and a brown baggage car or nothing). So I finally compromised, I noticed that the complimentary series of Flèche d'or pullmans had the full lining that the flèche d'or had, but were painted in blue. Thats what I opted for, there will be arrows, and the numbers and some of the lettering may not be accurate, but so what, you only live once. With some kind of luck my Atlantic may pull three pullmans one truck and my card board model of the wooden baggage I have. Watch this space. Take care, it's all your fault!


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

On ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-M-Wagons-...664772?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ce6874e04
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-M-Wagons-...666774?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ce68755d6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-M-Wagons-...667984?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ce6875a90
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-M-Wagons-...670551?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ce6876497
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-M-Wagons-...676946?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ce6877d92


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks for putting up the links Cocobear.

For a mere $6,500, one can obtain a set of five Le train Bleu coaches to virtually carry passengers on the overnight from Calais through Paris to the Riviera .

I have to admit that it is tempting, but I have decided to allow intellect to triumph over emotion, at least in this one instance. 

Let's see how long they last?

Anyone with the passion and pocketbook to own a 232-U1 or a 241P should find this set attractive. Even a mere SNCF Mikado would do. In my own case, had I not already invested in Fleche'D'Or coaches, without having the proper loco to run them on a track that does not yet exist, I'd probably purchase these instead, to go along with a loco I do not yet have. 

Cheers,

Joe

A postscript . . .

We know that it is highly unlikely that any more Gauge 1 Le Train Blue sets will be made commercially. If I believed that purchasing these five coaches would qualify as a legitimate investment, I'd have bought them already. I have doubts. There has been enough discussion in here to suggest that, the demand is so small, even with the scarcity of supply, one would be lucky to get one's money back. Buying them without having a passion for them and a layout to run them would have to be seen as an irrational thing to do. 

So if they do not sell at these prices it would tend to indicate that they are a poor investment vehicle, despite their rarity. On the other hand, if they do sell, it will only mean that there are at least one or two people out there who think they are worth the money. In stock market parlance its low volume with price volatility, so not a wonderful market to invest in.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I would tend to agree..the prices on a on the diner and salon car seem a bit high to me...even given the recent auction prices....but if you're missing those two coaches in your collection, then there may be a buyer there. The sleepers, I think, given the apparent condition may be about right but we'll see. I have 7 CIWL coaches so I think I'm good for now. I miss David's old CIWL coaches--those were very well done and ran extremely well. David-I'm a buyer if you even make them again!

Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Sam,
I still have you on my list of "if I ever get around to it" people!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

Can you add my name to the end of the list?

Sometimes there are cancellations and who knows, I may move up what I suspect is quite a long list.

  ,s

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

David,

Yeah, I'm assuming the "if I ever get around to it" means "don't hold your breath".....

Joe- the salon car is the only one I don't have in the listing but I'm not paying $1500 for one....I'd rather put my money on David for now or wait for one to turn up with more sane pricing........After all there are only 10 241Ps sold in the US and my guess is most of those folks already have the cars from the 232U1 days or don't care....

Sam


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The Salon cars made by J&M is a reproduction of a set of three cars converted by the CIWLT in the '50s fom côte d'Azur Pullmans into Bar dancing cars as pullmans they were blue and cream but these were blue. They were made specially to accompany (with a diner) the Blue train an all night sleeper train made up mainly of Lx sleepers (later with the roomette P budd cars). The idea was that while first service was being served in the diner passengers for the second service could have a drink in the bar car while they waited. It was it's only use exclusively on that train. This train was hauled by the 2 Do 2 9100 electrics to Lyon then the 2-4-1 P to Marseilles and the liberation Mikados from Marseille to Nice (fuel version only because the coal ones started too many fires on the rivieras forest). All of these have been produced in gauge one. Be informed that these cars never ran on any other routes or regions.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

Once again, thank you for the historical perspective!

Since I do not have a 241P or imported SNCF Mikado as yet, and as I have no interest in electrics, I will continue to stay away from these cars.

I really appreciate the way you help some of us save money on things we don't need or may not know how to use properly. 

{Did the 232 U1 ever haul these cars?}

Cheers,

Joe

By the way, I am trying to get my hands on three PRR heavyweights, but as I do not want to have more competition than necessary, I won't say much more about this unless someone beats it out of me.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Simon,
Thanks for the detail and my wallet thanks you too...although it was safe with the current price....My 232U1 will have to be happy with the others (three LX types, 2 S,a blue diner and a blue fourgon)for now...practical elements often trump the desire for historical accuracy in any event.....fortunately, in regard to the salon car...I'm ok....

Joe-good luck getting the PRR cars. No comp from me....

Sam


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

A new strategy is a foot...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-amp-M-Wag...-U1-etc-/261570491518?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, Dave he has....but the results could be the same unless he reaches a sane reserve. He seems to be hanging his hat, as it were, on the price for new ones with his link reference....The problem with that particular strategy is there are still a fair number of not new coaches out there. If one is patient, one can likely pay a lot less than that.. As Joe has repeatedly pointed out, a quick look in Europe shows them coming up a bit more regularly. Of course, if one is not patient, etc., then he sells his car....that's the buyer he's looking for... I wish him luck since someday i might be selling and I may be looking for a similar buyer. Clearly, there was someone out there who was willing to pay a premium in the Heritage auction.

It is interesting to see where things are....

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I am enjoying watching the flow of things as well.

Sam, I think that you were correct in your initial post on this subject . . . about the existence of only a very small number of people in the States who would have a "need" or desire for such cars and of course - with a tiny market, one must depend upon luck or a low enough price to draw someone in who is lukewarm to the prospect of buying them. There are probably a few of us here who would buy these cars if the price were low enough.

I now see that I likely overpaid for the three CIWL cars I purchased from my German friend, but not the fourth one I am getting from Andrew at a fair price.

I am not troubled by having overpaid a bit. If I have to take a loss when I sell them one day, whether I still feel OK about the purchase will only depend upon whether I have enjoyed having them in the meantime. 

I am still glad I have them, so I am off to a good start. 

Cheers,

Joe

On the PRR cars . . .

The seller did not get his asking price so they are still "on the market." I have offered about 82% of the asking price so we will see whether I am dealing with a realist or a dreamer.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

cocobear1313 said:


> A new strategy is a foot...
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-amp-M-Wag...-U1-etc-/261570491518?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276


I note that he is only trying this strategy with one of his five cars, perhaps the most desirable of the lot? I give him credit for being willing to experiment.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261570491518?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The strategy paid off nicely. 

Four of the five Wagon-List cars ended without a "Buy it Now" offer, so unsold, but the one car that was switched from a "buy it now" price of $1,400.00, the Dining Car, was started at $0.99 and ended up receiving 20 bids from five bidders and selling for $1,345.00.

I was the second one of the five bidders to enter a price, my price being $1.04. That turned out to be my final offer, so there were no more than four serious bidders and probably only two, but the guy met his $1,100.00 reserve a day or two ago and ended up with just $65.00 less than his original "Buy it Now" price.

I suspect he will relist the other four in a similar manner.

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,
Probably one of the 241P owners in need of cars. The diner car purchaser may have picked up the others in the bargain.....but we'll see. The seller was smart to change his tactics. Of course, ebay is real winner in all of these....the rest of us--patience is usually rewarded....

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam,

For a couple days, it looked like you were correct. Once the CIWL Diner was sold, the other four cars did not get relisted right away.

But today, the Saloon is up with the $0.99 opening price with a $1,500 "Buy it Now," so I reckon the other cars were not sold privately either - at least the Saloon was not:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261576908774?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Last time he realized 95% of his original asking price. Let's see how he does this time?

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,
Yes, of course, all this "educated" guesses.are just that......No crystal ball unfortunately at my disposal.....

Personally, i'm glad to see the prices go where they are since I own several myself.....The market for a CIWL diner car looks good if you own one right now. We'll see what else we can say after that......

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam,

So far, two bidders on the Saloon car and the seller is at about 50% of his target price. Like you, I don't mind seeing the value holding for these coaches. Fun to watch and speculate.

I am still looking for a few more coaches myself. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

I am looking for the J&M CIWL wagon Fourgon as well. If anyone know where to get one please let me know .

Thanks

Nathan


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

It's been about 3 months since this "J&M Model" coach thread was updated and in that time, I have nothing to report. 

Well, not much anyway . . .

On the German ebay.de site there is the same lot of unsold Rheingold and Mitropa J&Ms . . . and Bernd in Germany has the same NYC Pullman for sale for the ridiculous price of over $1,800.00. He dropped it from about $2,500.00 +/- a month or two ago. It is not even an observation car!

I did engage in a dialog with the newest owner of the J&M name, and he seems not to have anything on hand to sell and only with tentative plans to do something or other in 2015. And if he does do "something or other," it'll be exclusively with Euro passenger coaches. He does not have any corridor connectors on hand nor does he seem to have much of anything available in the way of things J&M. One wonders why he bothered to purchase the name?

Some months ago, a guy in Pennsylvania did list an Aster K4s electric with three J&M heavyweight cars on the U.S. Ebay site, but he probably wanted over $10K for them? When I privately informed him that the cars were made by J&M, he continued to refer to them as Aster cars.

He once-upon-a-time (late 2013) had a starting price of $8,000, but after no bites for over a year of several listing activities, he lowered his starting price down to $5,800.00 for the lot. I asked him what he was actually looking for and he would not say.  I had the temerity to offer him a price more than Dr. Rivet thinks they are worth and he, by this time, was probably too offended to even respond.  

Eventually, he gave up.

* * *

I'll probably update this thread every few months unless there is reason for me or someone else to report something of interest sooner.

I _may_ look at Golden Age Models for a British Pullman or two, but as to PRR heavyweights . . . ?

I doubt we'll see anything other than an odd J&M showing up now and again for big dollars by 20th century standards.

If any J&Ms change hands at DH, it would be good to learn of my missed opportunity. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> If any J&Ms change hands at DH, it would be good to learn of my missed opportunity.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Joe


REALLY?
Nothing worse than hearing that other people pick up just what you wanted, for next to nothing!
All the best for the New Year,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

That's what the *wink* was for, David. 

I'd be surprised if any J&M PRR heavyweights change hands at DH, but if they do, I would be encouraged to learn that what I think is nearly impossible is actually possible. 

Happy New Year to you as well.

Regards,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
Sorry, i tend to be emoticon blind!
You never know, so you might want to find a trusted proxy who is going to Diamondhead and give him/her your phone number.
Happy New Year,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi every body : I just had too many very urgent things to take care of for the last few months, so I didn't post much but should be able to again from now on. I am glad my historical info helped people out. It is the way I model, it limits my buying to just what I need to replicate something historicaly and that keeps me from buying too much (not that I could afford to either) Thats how I sailed away from the 2-4-1 P it is neither a Nord engine (although it ran on the Nord for 9 years) nor a Pennsy one and besides it cost too much for my wallet. J & M cars are very well made and quite beautiful models but they are heavy, that can be an advantage if your engine is brilliant but can be a woe if it isn't... Anyways Happy new year with lots of great thing in steam. 
Simon


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Hello,

Question to all J&M experts: Have you ever experienced that the car
body sides tend to come off after some time because the double sided self-adhesive tapes that hold everything together deteriorate? 
I have had to repair 4 cars so far - 3 English and one American Pullman.
I decided to rework the cars completely. First I removed the remains of the original tape by a mixture of thermic (heat gun), mechanical (chisel), and chemical action (acetone). Thanks to the excellent paintwork this can be done with virtually no damage, if one exercises due care. Then I reassemble the cars using 3M high bond tape. Quite some work.
How do you tackle this issue?

Regards
Michael


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

du-bousquetaire said:


> Hi every body : I just had too many very urgent things to take care of for the last few months, so I didn't post much but should be able to again from now on. I am glad my historical info helped people out. It is the way I model, it limits my buying to just what I need to replicate something historicaly and that keeps me from buying too much (not that I could afford to either) Thats how I sailed away from the 2-4-1 P it is neither a Nord engine (although it ran on the Nord for 9 years) nor a Pennsy one and besides it cost too much for my wallet. J & M cars are very well made and quite beautiful models but they are heavy, that can be an advantage if your engine is brilliant but can be a woe if it isn't... Anyways Happy new year with lots of great thing in steam.
> Simon


Michael . . .

Though I am the thread-starter, I am not the expert you are seeking on complete disassembly and reassembly of J&M cars and what to do about replacing double-stick. The cars I have, have not required what I would call major surgery. Microscope slides and slide covers work well for any missing glass and a dab of two-part epoxy seems to work well for minor repairs where the resultant bond can be hidden. I have used a clear silicone out of sight to reattach window panes as I like a somewhat flexible bond where applicable.

Back to Simon . . .

Enjoyed "The Train" the other evening where there is ample good footage of SNCF ten-wheelers in use, 230 B 517 and a couple others. (Du Bousquet-De Glehn design)  More 4 cy. compounds. I'd seen the movie years ago, but at the time had no interest in looking into the history of the locomotives involved.

I do not mind an occasional departure off-topic from things J&M though I agree with some that it results in a challenge for those who won't be able to easily find the divergent information later on. I am here to have fun, no matter the form it takes.

At some point I need to narrow the focus of my "collecting" as well Simon. 

It is about money, but not only about money. One needs a place to properly display and store one's acquisitions without consuming all of one's living space and then there is the issue of what one will ever use with sufficient frequency to justify the cost and the real estate in one's own mind and that of one's life partner.

Right now, I have a K4s and one heavyweight and I am committed to find a few more heavyweights, but that may well be the end of the PRR line for me.

I have three and perhaps may acquire another UK outline loco one day as I do have some Pullmans and some Western BR Mk Is. I will limit myself to the Southern and Western and eschew anything LMS, LNER, etc. I'd like to find a couple more British Pullmans.

I have a Frank S and some suitable rolling stock but I may let that go at some point.? I have lost interest in little Frankie. 

And I am not as yet committed fully to things French and Nord. I'll hang on to what I have in the way of coach stock for the time being and I may in the end let them go? Time will tell. 

I may well have fallen off the deep end, but so far I have not drowned. I do not want to become another Sam.  I will fight my addiction!  I may have to find a chapter of steamaholics anonymous at some point. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

JOE

I have been asked to post on this thread that some J&M American cars WILL be available at DH. They WILL NOT be on the "bring and buy" stand. Look for a FOR SALE notice on the bulletin board. It will have contact information for the seller.

I have not identified the seller at his request.

IF you are not attending and are interested I suggest you contact an attendee and ask them to act in your behalf.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jim,
Probably not my place to make this suggestion, but can't Joe just contact you, and then pass it on to the seller, in case a deal can be made without dragging them to DH?
Just a thought!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Jim, thank you for the information.

David, thank you for your further thoughts.

Alas, I am not going to DH myself, but I did ask someone from the greater New York area who is driving down and back, to be on the look-out for me and he has agreed to do so. 

The seller is also welcome to contact me with a PM through the forum here as well . . . and I will revert by providing my cell # if it makes sense to do so. If Jim volunteers to act as a liaison that would be nice as well. 

I really do not want anyone to go to too much trouble on my behalf.

The primary mission @ DH ought to be to have fun and with as few complications as possible.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David / Joe

AFIK the seller is ALREADY at Diamondhead and the cars are in his possession. So Joe's "agent" from New York can check out the board for the info. Sitting in VA, I am not in a good position to facilitate this transaction [if it were to occur]. Besides, Joe's agent [or whomever] should inspect them before purchase.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Joe
Got your PM...did you get my response? I can never tell if it was actually sent.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Jim,

Yes indeed. But let's keep it a secret.

 ,s

Joe


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

HI,

FYI - just noticed that there is a set of 10 J&M CIWL cars on offer for 8,500.- Swiss Francs.
http://www.ricardo.ch/kaufen/modell...-wagenzug-train-bleu-von-jundm/v/an748790338/
Unfortunately you'd have to pick up the cars in Switzerland and pay cash...

Regards
Michael


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I believe that works out to about 835 USD each plus airfare and accommodations. 

I personally like the idea that this thread can serve as some sort of clearing house thread concerning J&M Models rolling stock availability. 

When one Googles J&M model coaches, this thread seems to always pop up on the first page of results.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi there: just to say I agree with Joe of keep ing ones head above water, there are many other things in life. One shouldn't sacrifice everything for ones trains. I personnally am not a collector but a modeler,I build and like to operate my trains and I just love to see an engine with the appropriate train at a correct speed (I really don't go for all those videos I see were steam locos haul a freight train at Bullet train speed). I really think that J&M s are a good value for the money; but , so far, I never paid more than $500.00 for one, back in 1982 when the J & M continental pullmans came out, they were being offered for around 2500 Fr. Francs that's about $400.00. Keep cool and be patient. Repairing these sides that come undone is a pain, I must admit. I don't have a good solution so far, so I won't give one.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Welcome back, Simon. You may have missed my comments on post 149 concerning the SNCF 230 B 517 and "The Train." 

* * *

Michael, it appears the listing for the ten J&M Wagon-lits cars expired without anyone buying them.

Ricardo.ch . . .

I book-marked the site as it appears to be something of an Ebay knock-off, though there is also an ebay.ch site.

There are two other J&M listings there at the moment:

Fulgurex J&M 1: PULLMAN Sleeping-Car 

and

J&M Models England PW 3. Kl grün D167

(A malachite green Southern coach pre nationalization.)

The Pullman is over $1,700, high by anyone's standards, but the Southern coach has an opening price in the low $300 range.

No news from DH on heavyweights - and the hunt goes on. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello Joe. Yes I read your comment on the EST 2-3-0 B in the Train. one of the best films done on French Railways with la Bête Humaine filmed by Jean Renoir the son of the great painter and a fabulous pre ware French director. This film shows high speed action on the Paris Rouen Le Havre line including taking water on the fly with the Ramsbottom system used by the ETAT Ry.

I think that sellers can retire an object on sale at E Bay. in particular if it's a high end item and is not fetching the kind of price the seller hoped for it. it's tricky selling high end things on E bay...

I have a friend who is looking for those Southern railway of England coaches made by J & M.
Heavyweights are hard to come by. I waited five years for my set. but they are well worth the wait.

Well I hope you will find some too.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Simon,

I have seen *The Train* twice so far in recent years and I will see it again next time it is on when I happen to be around. When I think of the film, I remember near the end, while the train is stopped, one can hear the reciprocating steam-driven water pump pumping water into the boiler - or at least this is what I am imagining that I am hearing as we never see it. Of course, they have the blower open to maintain draft as well. Great flick.

*On the J&Ms . . .*

I have heard now a few experienced steamer hobbyists who have been around this community for a long time insisting that these J&M coaches in good condition should sell for about $500 to $550 USD. Do you believe it?

I note that not a one of them has offered to sell me theirs for any price so far. I will pay more for PRR J&Ms. So now I will wait for the flood of the private offers to flow in. 

I bet they turn me down if I offer $750 each? What do you think, Simon?

So how much are these coaches worth again?

* * *

The hunt is as much fun as the kill sometimes, Simon, so I wait and we will see what happens. I am in no real hurry.

I am very much enjoying this thread - and a number (most) other threads here too.

I have another Aster loco to build, but I am not talking. 

Dabbling in a few small related projects as well

Regards,

Joe

PS: I have three English Pullmans so far and I would not mind finding a couple more. I have been told that the Golden Age Models are much nicer and perhaps I may buy one, but could they be worth twice the price of a J&M? 

Perhaps I am too easily pleased, but I find the J&M English Pullmans to be quite beautiful.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I also have refused to pay over $500-600 for J & M cars weather continental or US, if you are patient you will find what you need. I think that they are well suited to our practice of live steam out doors, they are detailed yet robust and stand up to time well. The only complain I have with them is their excessive weight.

Too much detail can only break off and end up in the ballast. That's one of the nice thing about track maintenance: You are often rewarded by finding a much needed part you lost a few months before! I don't have much track maintenance to do, but I do have a moss invasion every winter. At spring I prune out this moss on the wood sleepered track. Time consuming but very relaxing...


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

*Time for a thread resurrection . . .*

There have been a number of related events that have occurred since the latest update which have tempted me to resurrect this thread, but then I stopped myself. 

Purely from a self-interest point of view, why report relatively high prices for J&M coaches and carriages? Doing so may be counter-productive from the point of view of someone who wishes to acquire a few more, right?

My interest is narrow and getting narrower all of the time as I run out of place to store these rather large items that may not even ever get proper use over time.

I have been interested in:

British Pullmans
PRR Heavyweights
CIWL cars

In my communication with John Waggott, I learned that J&M made about 10,000 units during his tenure and about 100 different examples. If these models were made in equal quantities - certainly not the case - there would be 100 of each kind in existence. Unfortunately, John kept no records so we'll never know how many of each were made.

As far as U.S. outline coaches or cars go, I know of two, possibly three rail lines where J&M made heavyweights:

New York Central
Pennsylvania Railroad
Southern Pacific?

Please feel free to "fill in the blanks" if anyone has additional knowledge.

I placed a question mark after to SP, because I haven't been able to find any such examples on-line except for the few I once saw on Ebay.de being offered by Bernd Zielke. Perhaps these were renamed NYC cars?

Here is what I know for sure concerning PRR and NYC:

*Pennsylvania Railroad*

Baggage & Club Car with barber chair (combine) :

Liberty Bell
Liberty Park

Dining Car

4487
8016

Passenger Coach:

Edgar Allen Poe
Mark Twain

Observation Car:

Federal Hall
Liberty Hall

Are there any others?

*New York Central*

Baggage & Club Car with barber chair (combine) :

Van Rensselaer
Van Twiller
Van Winkle

Dining Car:

381
382
383
387

Passenger Coach:

Albany
Churchville
Troy

Observation Car:

Catskill Valley
Elkhart Valley
Hudson Valley
Mohawk Valley

Are there any others?

These days, these cars and the CIWL cars in good condition are selling for, from between $600 and $1200 +/- Asking price seems to be around $1,000 typically though some are not selling at that price.

Days ago there was a bidding war on Ebay.fr for a Felche d'Or and a Le train Bleu car where the prices ended up high. They may have stayed in France?

To me this makes sense because, even though the market may be shrinking, the supply is finite and there is essentially no competition.

If J&M made BR Mk Is, they probably would be selling on the cheap because we have well-made, albeit resin, G1MRC/Accucraft coaches available.

But if you want a British Pullman, there are only "old" J&Ms or else truly splendid Golden Age Models. (I just bought "Lucille recently and it is a beauty.) But G.A.Ms are 1150 GBP.

J&M (Executive Models) will likely make a few CIWL cars, but they won't be cheap either.

Still no other heavyweights in 1:32 around . . . nor any very likely.

* * * * * *

I was able to recently purchase a blemished *Liberty Park *for a price that would meet the approval of Dr. Rivet, Simon, Ryan and some others . . . because it is not perfect and I was able to negotiate a fair price. it needs a few minor repairs in addition to touch-up where seen below.

What color should the rooftop of a PRR J&M heavyweight be? I now have two cars with two colors. Which, if either, should I change back? 










Here is the blemish on my new-old car:









Some additional shots with and without flash:





































Cheers,

Joe

*Edit]/b]: Added the two known PRR Dining Cars*


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Joe,

For the Pennsy cars, the car at the bottom looks like the ones I used to own so I'm thinking that is proper color. I think I have some Liberty Hall sides but not sure. I'll check.

It looks like you have a pretty complete list there. I have some old J&M dealer brochures from the 1980s and a J&M brochure. I can look at that tonight to see if there were others offered.

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Sam,

Thanks.

When these cars are photographed individually by others, it is difficult to tell the actual colors. For example, the last two photographs taken by me today are of the same car, one with flash and one with natural sunlight only. Of course, side-by-side there is a huge difference between the two coach roofs, (or rooves if you prefer the old term.) The lighter color roof is my EAP and the darker color is LP.

If your two LH sides are in good shape and you want to sell them, I would not mind converting my LP into an LH w/o blemish. 

Regards,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

The PRR and NYC list checks out based on brochures I have from Gauge One America and Garden Railway Company back in the 1980s. There is no other road names listed. Perhaps someone else knows if they did a run of SP cars but I've personally never seen originals except from those two lines.


The European stuff I have the original J&M 16 page brochure and the listing for all the J&M cars. If interested, I can copy some of that and send your way.


I'll have to look at the Liberty Hall sides. I've had them for a long while so I'll let you know.


Sam


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

The only SP heavyweight J&M cars I have seen are the NYC ones Alan Redeker relettered to run as part of his San Joaquin Daylight.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Gentlemen, thanks again.

The image below was taken from an Ebay ad in July of 2014.











It was actually an NYC Catskill Valley car. Someone simply swapped the NYC end-plate for the SP end-plate.

At the time, I knew a lot less on the subject than I know now . . . and hopefully, one day, I will know more than I know now. 

It looks like I have been able to back into a list of what was produced that is consistent with the information that Sam has saved from days gone by, and is consistent with Jim's recollection and observation.

Regards,

Joe


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Joe

The "tail sign" in the image above is exactly like a railroad pin I have. I suspect that is what it is made from.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

I have a bit more info for you.


On the PRR heavyweights, the Edgar Allan Poe and Mark Twain had two variations: One was red body/black roof and the other was red body/brown roof had stripes (gold) and green truck frame.


I saw there were two NYC Heavyweights today...missed the Troy...oh well. Please keep an eye out for me...


Sam


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

*All *car types of the J&M PRR heavyweights were available in either the Tuscan deluxe striped scheme with the olive trucks and brown roof or the Tuscan red with black roof and trucks. 

The list here is fairly good for the names on the PRR cars, but it is lacking the Dining Car

+ PRR dining car is not named but numbered 4487 (possibly other numbers available)

These too were available in the Tuscan body, striped with olive trucks and brown roof or Tuscan body black roof/trucks. 
Dining cars in PRR seem to be a bit on the rare side as far as coming up for sale, but like the others, they are out there. 

No other names for the 12-1 section Pullman cars in the PRR schemes available other than Mark Twain and Edgar Allan Poe that I know of or have literature to support. 

All other PRR specific names seem to be correct with both literature and known existing models.

The dining cars are also the only J&M cars to actually state the name of the railroad, although it is implied by the names on the other cars and the colour schemes used. The combine, observation and 12-1 Pullmans all say Pullman, for both NYC and PRR schemes,


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe,

I have seen that variation on the brown PRR roof colouring on two Mark Twain cars side by side. 

I suspect the rooves were made in different batches, so perhaps the pigment for the resin changed. Could also be UV fading if the car was exposed to the sun or under a fluorescent display lamp.

Take a look at the cars in the below video, notice the difference in the roof colors between the lined cars. The color difference is as true in the video as if you saw it in person.






Timestamp to look at is from 13:40 to 14:00. Specifically look at 13:58 for the difference. Looks similar to your two cars difference.

The darker of the two colors is correct, the beige color is certainly an error.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks Sam and Ryan for the further demystification.

Sam, it seems that neither Troy nor Mohawk Valley sold for the $999 price. Perhaps they will be re-listed.

John may have produced more of the NYC varieties than the PRR, but we are unlikely to learn the quantities produced for each type.

Thus far, I have only seen the PRR versions that are painted deluxe Tuscan with gold striping and green trucks. I wondered about the lack of a PRR dining car, Ryan, as there are at least four numbered dining cars for the NYC.

The two PRR cars that I have do not appear to have been repainted. The video does show the same chestnut brown and dark yellow-brown ochre as seen in my EAP and LP, so this does suggest that they are aged originals. 

Perhaps I will repaint the rooves at some point a chestnut color.

The hunt goes on. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,My info comes largely from brochures from the 80s. The NYC cars were made first for the most part. The NYC observation cars and club baggage cars were produced later in 1984 according to a letter I have from Gauge One America (Fran Devore).


I had a set of the PRR cars but Hans acquired them many moons ago. I didn't take pictures unfortunately. Ryan, of course, looks have more up-to-date information. No PRR diner is mentioned in any of the early literature I have.




Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

My list is dated 1st January '86, and shows:
G1A/210 American Pullman Dining Car - NYC £525
G1A/211 American Pullman Dining Car - Pennsylvania Tuscan Red - Gold/Black Lines £545
Of course, being in a catalogue does not necessarily mean it was built!
If that helps in the discussion at all!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Well I reckon that we are building an informal - and possibly inaccurate - limited knowledge base that 99.999999% of the world's population does not know or care about.

As long as the information is vitally important to someone, it's all good. 

Cheers,

Joe

*Edit*: For those who may have interest, there are a couple of Excel spreadsheets floating around the Net that document where and when various Pullman Cars were built and where they were deployed. The document I am looking at now was produced by a Tom Madden in February of 2001.

If one had more than one of each, J&M Edgar Allen Poe and Mark Twain, one could rename additional PRR cars with the Pullman 3410B plan:

Admiral Dewey
Bret Harte
Daniel Boone
Edward Preble (later Calvin Coolidge)
Henry W. Longfellow
James Fenimore Cooper
James Russel Lowell
James Whitcomb Riley
John Edgar Howard
John Greenleaf Whittier
Ralph Waldo Emerson
and a couple of others.

NYC Cars listed as well.

If there is interest I will try and find the link.

*2nd Edit:*

Spreadsheet formated database here:

The Pullman Project


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Joe,

Thanks for posting. Well, from the number of hits on this thread, it appears a few-- in that very small vein-- are interested. Apparently, someone was interested enough to purchase four NYC cars on Sunday for 1K each...

Sam


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

boilingwater said:


> Joe,
> 
> Thanks for posting. Well, from the number of hits on this thread, it appears a few-- in that very small vein-- are interested. Apparently, someone was interested enough to purchase four NYC cars on Sunday for 1K each...
> 
> Sam


It appears that way to me as well, Sam. Those four cars went so fast, I thought that you had bought them! 

The previous two are either still at the seller in NY or they may have sold as well?

Two weeks ago, a Le train Bleu car went for $1,200 and a blue/white Fleche d'Or went for $1,460.00

It makes sense that, if they are becoming increasingly rare and with no prospects of replacements in the queue, they would not be going down in value.

I don't want to discuss prices any longer as I am still looking for a couple of PRR cars in pristine condition for $450 each. 

Cheers,

Joe

PS: I am glad I haven't "accidentally" bought a Hudson as yet. If I should "accidentally" purchase one, I'd have to buy some of those green cars and where would I put them? 

I have reflected recently that the original maroon boxes that they come in are about twice as wide and 1 1/2 as high and a bit longer, so 3+X the cubic volume of the car. Then they came out of a wooden crate which no one should throw away, right? The crate is about 1.5 x width and 1.5 x height and a bit longer than the box so is that is 2.5 X the cubic volume of the maroon box and what? 7 to 8 X the cubic volume of the car? If we display one of these in a display case that is another 2 X the cubic volume of the car. Where does one put all this stuff: 

Edited out my hyperbole.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Interestingly . . .

A J&M Etoile du Nord dining car (4004E) in white over blue is up to 1300 Euro with three days to go on Ebay. 11 bidders and 23 bids so far. The last half a dozen CIWL cars have drawn a fair amount of interest relatively speaking. I am one of the 11 and I was interested, but not THAT interested. 

Cheers,

Joe

*Edit*: Sold for 1,410 Euro ($1,513.00)


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

With regards to the PRR Dining car, new evidence of existence. 

Here are two photos of the PRR Diner in Tuscan body, striped with olive trucks/underbody and brown roof.


























Number is 8016, so that adds to the 4487 unlined that I know of (photos coming soon). 
There may have been different numbers between the two paint schemes as well

As one can see, it is essentially the same as the NYC dining cars except for the paint.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Ryan,

Thank you for adding to our knowledge base. I'll update my original post.

Thus far, I have only seen the gold-lined "deluxe" versions (with green undercarriage, brown above,) so perhaps they were more popular than the unlined versions with black above and below?

{FYI, the E.A.P. car that I have with an ochre colored roof also has matching colored screws holding the roof in place. Ditto for the brown-rooved Liberty Park which has matching color screws. <-- This observation may be of dubious value.}

I am also guessing that J&M may have manufactured more of the NYC cars in total than the PRR cars because there are more documented sales listed for NYC cars at the places where auction records are easily available . . . since 2000 or so. 

Alternatively, I suppose it is possible that folks just hang on to the PRR cars? All speculation, of course.

I have not found any record of sale for a PRR dining car as yet, so these dining cars may be rarer than the other types.

Cheers,

Joe

EDIT: Here is a site that lists many Pullmans with photos:

Passenger Car Photos


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

The most recent PRR Diner to be noted in a public auction was in 2003 in a Christie's London auction. Again it was in the tuscan body, lined, green trucks/brown roof scheme. The pricing is of course irrelevant as this was 2003 and the market is a bit all over the place. 

Here is the link: PRR Diner

EDIT: See David Leech's post below.

It is behind the Liberty Bell Combine but is instantly recognizable as a diner due to the roof. Compare to the photos posted above if in doubt. 

I will snap a few photos of the set of tuscan body, black roof/trucks cars here this weekend to add to the database. 

Likely that there were less PRR scheme pullman cars produced (either lined or unlined), but since J&M had no records of exactly how much of what car type and scheme were produced this is a guess at best.

In regard to the roof color, I am still of the opinion that the "ochre"/tan color was a change in the pigment color used in the resin casting of the rooves. Whether this was intentional or just a new supplier, who knows, but obviously the rooves were still going to be used, hence why you have matching paint on the heads of the securing screws. Still, the truly brown roof is the correct color scheme for these cars.

As an aside: 4 NYC pullmans sold today at an auction house for between 700 and 900 a car, not including the 23% buyers premium. Also three PRR lined coaches sold in the same auction for between 600 and 900 a car


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Sorry, but I don't have a date for it, but on my list of eBay items over the last three or four years, I have a note of a PRR Dining car that sold for $1200.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

David,

Thanks for the updated info, good to know that there are some of these exchanging hands.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Ryan:



> As an aside: 4 NYC pullmans sold today at an auction house for between 700 and 900 a car, not including the 23% buyers premium. Also three PRR lined coaches sold in the same auction for between 600 and 900 a car


The above are supposed to be in very good condition, but without couplers. Most have original maroon boxes.

Although Bertoia is not far from me, I was unable to attend the auction myself due to a prior commitment, but I did place a pre-bid on the PRR cars and in the $ range you note above. When logging into my account on the site this evening, I note that there is a rather ambiguous note next to the three PRR cars: "*May Have Won*," in green.

Maybe it will change at some point to "You Probably Won," or perhaps, "Maybe You Didn't Win After all." 

I guess I will find out on Monday. I did not bid on the NYC cars as I am Hudson-less. 

Cheers,

Joe

*Edit*: The hunt is part of the fun. Perhaps a another dining car will show up at some point?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

So here is how the recent Bertoia Auction turned out with respect to J&M Models . . .

NYC

Van Rensselaer $750
Van Winkle $850
Diner 382 $800
Troy $800

PRR

Liberty Bell $750
Liberty Hall $900
Mark Twain $950

There were two sets of two-axle simulated wood GNR coaches that went for $700 per pair.

In addition, there was a Gauge 2 set which consisted of an SNCF electric loco and five (5) CIWL coaches that sold for $12,000.00

How did I do?

My "May Have Wons" turned into "You Snooze, You Lose." 

I bid $600 for the PRR combine (I already have one,) so missed by $150.
I bid $750 for Mark Twain, so missed by $200.
I bid $850 for Liberty Hall, so missed by $50.

The slightly disturbing issue with Liberty Hall is that LiveAuctioneers has been showing the winning bid as $850, which would have meant that I won. The auction house assures me that this is a mistake on the part of the LA clerk and I do not doubt them.

To the above prices, one has to add _at least_ 18% plus shipping and of course, there is also the need to purchase and install Kaydee couplers.

The hunt continues.

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello fellow gauge one live steam buffs. Been very busy lately so I didn't write much in this forum or any other for that matter. While the subject of the PRR version of the J& M diner is on. I wanted to ask some of the more knowledgeable members of this forum about it's authenticity as a car opperated on the PRR? I am new to modeling the PRR, and doing it from the other side of the Atlantic doersn't make it easier, but all the photos, data and books I have perused seem to indicate that the Pennsy operated its own diners on its trains, and not Pullman diners, hence my building the D78 diner as seen on my articles in Steam in, the garden. It could be that the Pennsy made an exception for certain prestige train sets like the Broadway and rented dinners from Pullman, but I tend to doubt that. Also the book on the Broadway limited shows a betterment D 78 dinner as being assigned to that train. I did find some very similar cars used as Café coaches the PC70BR in the book I have but it rides on PRR four wheel trucks and is diferent. What I am trying to research is weather J & M just lettered their NYC prototype diner in PRR Broadway livery of the late heavyweight era or weather it is an accurate model of a PRR car. Would any body know? But anyways I have bought the car with a set which I obtained from John Waggot himself at a fabulous price as they had a bit of work to do on them. So I now own two 12-1 pullmans, one smoker the diner and an observation with my B60 and my D78 it makes quite a fantastic consist, and I can always sprinkle in some lightweights made by David. and even one 6-10 from Accucraft which mates very well with Davids. Except for the two gold stripes which are much too low.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I'll leave it to others to contradict or to set us straight, but you appear to be correct in questioning the use of Pullman Diners by PRR, Simon. It is possible that J&M felt motivated to complete a set by introducing a numbered PRR car as a Pullman Diner.

Look here:

Page 5 of the PRR Car Photo Index

If you scroll down to PRR #8016, one can see photos of the car and it is identified as a D78c and D78cR. J&M has produced Car 8016 as a Pullman Diner. The real PRR 8016 was a D78 car built by PRR in Altoona.

See also here:

PRR Passenger Cars

Scroll down to "Pennsylvania System Dining Cars Built in Altoona"

Mind you, if I am fortunate enough to obtain a PRR Pullman 8016 one day, I will do my best to pretend to be happy with the acquisition even though you have done you best to spoil my pudding. 

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: I haven't found info on "real" Pullman Diners numbered 381, 382, 383 or any 300-series for the NYC either?

2nd Edit: See here:

PRR Photo Index

Ryan mentioned an unlined J&M Model PRR Pullman#4487 a bit earlier. The page above shows PRR 4482 and PRR 4489 as D78 diner lounges. There are some Budds in the list as well, but I notice no Pullmans.

Does it really matter al that much to anyone?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Here is a "find" for anyone wishing information on New York Central Pullman Passenger Cars:

New York Central Passenger Car Roster - Heavyweight Pullman cars

I see no dining cars on the list.

From the reading I've done it seems Pullman did not generally supply dining cars to the larger railroads.

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

No one ever stated that the J&M dining cars were actual Pullman plan cars. Pullman and Heavyweight are (rather wrongly) used interchangeably in this discussion. 

Likely this is why the dining cars do not say Pullman in the letterboards, unlike the other models produced by J&M, which do correspond to specific prototype cars. Again, the numbers on the diners may or may not correspond to their real-life counterparts. 

The J&M diner is (presumably) based on a NYC dining car, which was very close to passable for a PRR D78c. In regards to the NYC and PRR models by J&M, there is no difference, except the paint schemes. The cars are identical in every other way, from trucks to roof. So it is probably safe to assume it was a matter of whether it was red or green paint on the body panels! 

PRR diners changed numbering schemes at least a few times, many formerly numbered 80xx could have well ended up in the 44xx numbering scheme. 

Here is the reason why it is "passable" as a PRR diner. 
PRR D78c 4418 (ex 8018)

Passable, in this case is a relative term in that it had the wheels the right way up and a roof with sides that covered tables next to windows


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

rbednarik said:


> No one ever stated that the J&M dining cars were actual Pullman plan cars. Pullman and Heavyweight are (rather wrongly) used interchangeably in this discussion.
> 
> <snip>


Thanks, Ryan,

I "stole" a little time while at work today to dig into this briefly after seeing Simon's post, but my search for the "ultimate truth" was limited in time. 

It did occur to me after my most recent post that, since the NYC and PRR diner cars were variations of the D78 car, that neither was made by Pullman though they were somewhat similar in outward appearance to a Pullman to uneducated eyes such as my own. If I had made a bet as to who would assist in clearing things up, I would have won my bet. 

From reading I had done in Joe Welsh's The Cars of Pullman, I learned that Pullman actually provided relatively very few dining cars and mostly to smaller branch railroads. Pullman preferred to focus on sleeping cars, lounge cars and baggage-lounge composite (combine) cars,leaving the railroads to build their own diners or source elsewhere such as through Budd perhaps.

I guess that adding to the confusion would be a reference to an "all Pullman" train that also had some non-Pullman stock within.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> Edit: I haven't found info on "real" Pullman Diners numbered 381, 382, 383 or any 300-series for the NYC either?


For what it's worth from Wikipedia:
Eastbound train #38—Advance 20th Century Limited, on February 7, 1930; Sampled at Chicago, Illinois.[10]

Locomotive: J-1 Class (4-6-4 Hudson) steam locomotive; NYC #5270;
Class CS Baggage-club car: NYC EAGLE HEIGHTS;
Class PS Sleeper (14-section): STAR VIEW;
Class PS Sleeper (8-section 1-drawing room 2-compartment): SPRING GAP;
Class PS Sleeper (6-compartment 3-drawing room): GLEN ALICE;
Class DA Dining car: NYC 387;
Class PS Sleeper (14-section): STAR SPUR;
Class PS Sleeper (10-section 2-double bedrooms): GANNETT PEAK;
Class PS Sleeper (8-section 1-drawing room 2-compartments): GLOVER GAP;
Class PSO Sleeper-Buffet-Lounge-Observation (1-drawing room 1-single bedroom): MOHAWK VALLEY.

NOTE: Class DA Dining car: NYC 387, which made me start to look a little deeper!

So from canadasouthern.com
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS2.htm

NYC 381 - built by PULLMAN - 1909 - service life 1909-19? CAFE-COACH
and
NYC 664-668, EX NYC 380-384 - built by PULLMAN - 1930 - service life1930-1959 (you can select the lot number and it shows a side elevation of the car)
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David, Thank you,

I was actually on that site earlier today and provided a link to it, but I was trying to get some work done as well.  

Good info there and a lot of sifting to find what is wanted. I must have overlooked the diner section. I see J&M's NYC #387 accounted for here as well.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

A (The one a couple pages back,) J&M PRR Dining Car 8016 sold for $1800 plus 19% premium tonight. Nice appreciation!

I wonder whether this thread has contributed to the the appreciation in valuations?

Maybe we should delete it, lol?

I managed to purchase a British Pullman "Lydia" and a CIWL Le Train Bleu Dining Car 3012 at the same auction.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

One thing that seems to confuse some people is the term Pullman.
From what I can gather, it goes something like this.
The Pullman Car and Manufacturing company, which later became the Pullman Standard company, built passenger cars (and freight) for the Pullman Co., as well as for many of the railroads.
So, when you say a 'Pullman' car, you really need to be a little more specific.
You can mean either one owned by the company which will probably, but not always, have the large PULLMAN on the letter board, but may have Pullman in little letters at either end, or not at all, or if built for a railroad it may be like any other car on that railroad and just have the railroad name on it!
I have a couple of books that cover just the Pullman 'owned and operated' cars.
The Pullman built cars for the actual railroads seem to have been missed out by the historians as I can find no single source that provides a list, or numbers and types of cars built.
You have to look at each and every railroad to see if you can find a record of cars that they purchased from the Pullman Car and Manufacturing Company.
Why this is, I cannot find anyone with an answer!
Of course in 1948 everything changed with the Pullman Co. having to get out of the business of providing the Pullman service due to the antitrust case, and then the cars were leased back from the railroads and the large PULLMAN replaced with the railroad name.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi David,

Yes you see a lot of cars with the road or car name with Pullman in small letters near both ends

How does Pullman fit in the UK history?

jim


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> One thing that seems to confuse some people is the term Pullman.
> From what I can gather, it goes something like this.
> The Pullman Car and Manufacturing company, which later became the Pullman Standard company, built passenger cars (and freight) for the Pullman Co., as well as for many of the railroads.
> So, when you say a 'Pullman' car, you really need to be a little more specific.
> ...




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_Company

The Pullman Palace Car Company, founded by George Pullman, manufactured railroad cars in the mid-to-late 19th century through the early decades of the 20th century, during the boom of railroads in the United States. Its workers initially lived in a planned worker community (or "company town") named Pullman.[1] Pullman developed the sleeping car which carried his name into the 1980s. Pullman did not just manufacture the cars: He also operated them on most of the railroads in the United States, paying railroad companies to couple the cars to trains. The labor union associated with the company, the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, which was founded and organized by A. Philip Randolph, was one of the most powerful African-American political entities of the 20th century. The company also built thousands of streetcars[2] and trolley buses for use in cities.[3]
.
.
.
In 1940, just as orders for lightweight cars were increasing and sleeping car traffic was growing, the United States Department of Justice filed an anti-trust complaint against Pullman Incorporated in the U.S. District Court at Philadelphia (Civil Action No. 994). The government sought to separate the company's sleeping car operations from its manufacturing activities. In 1944, the court concurred, ordering Pullman Incorporated to divest itself of either the Pullman Company (operating) or the Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company (manufacturing). After three years of negotiations, the Pullman Company was sold to a consortium of fifty-seven railroads for around US$40 million.[5]
.
.
.
In 1943, Pullman Standard established a shipbuilding division and dived into wartime small ship design and construction. The yard was on Lake Calumet (Chicago), on the north side of 130th Street, at the most southerly point of the Lake Michigan. Pullman built the boats in 40-ton blocks. The blocks being assembled in a fab shop on 111th Street and moved to the yard on gondola cars. In two years, they built 34 PCEs {Corvette}, which were 180 feet long and weighed 640 tons, and 44 LSMs, which were 203 feet long and weighed 520 tons. Pullman ranked 56th among United States corporations in the value of World War II military production contracts.[6]
.
.
.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Well, there does seem to be some Pullman involvement in Britain.
Here is a Pullman dining car on the Bluebell Railway this past September. 
I have to assume it was originally used somewhere in Britain.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

From the Bluebell Railway site.

*Golden Arrow* The Bluebell Railway's Golden Arrow Pullman dining train is the perfect setting for a special meal with friends or an intimate evening for two. With Pullman Cars Christine and Fingall the train recreates the fabulous Golden Arrow which once linked London and Paris with the style and panache which made it one of the most glamorous and famous trains in the world. On board you will enjoy fine food and wine served to the standards of yesteryear. - See more at: http://www.bluebell-railway.com/golden-arrow/#sthash.SKOAOZ6T.dpuf


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

The British Pullman Company had its origin in the U.S.

From the Wiki:



> The first Pullman Railway Coach to enter service in the UK was in 1874, after an assembly of imports from the US, in an operation pioneered by the Midland Railway, working with George Pullman's Chicago company.
> 
> The coach "Midland" was of Clerestory Roofed design with balconies at both ends. The concept of luxury coaches spread to the other UK railway companies thereafter
> 
> The PCC was formed in 1882 and named after the Pullman concept pioneered in the United States by the American railroader George Pullman.[1] The company entered into contracts with the railway companies to operate Pullman services over their lines.


Cross pollinating would be one way to look at it. 

Cheers,

Joe

BackyardRR: Belmond VSOE as well:

Belmond Luxury trains - V.S.O.E


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

In the UK of course, there was little need for sleeping cars as the distances are much shorter, so the Pullman cars there were just day coaches, very luxurious and with excellent meals.
Some complete trains were ALL Pullman, whilst other trains might just have a Pullman car inserted into the consist.
When I was very small, too young to remember I guess, my brother informed me that our mother insisted on trying out Pullman travel on one of our trips.
Apparently she was not impressed with the food though!
Too bad that I don't remember my only Pullman experience!!!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

My "Twentieth Century" book mentions that NYC streamliners had 'Pullman' written over the windows originally, but later paint schemes put the 'Pullman' in small letters near the doors. 

As you digressed to the UK's pullmans, From the Pullman Society Website:

"Many cars survive in preservation, most notably on the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express mainline operation, but also on the various preserved railways up and down the country such as the Bluebell Railway, Kent & East Sussex Railway and North Yorkshire Moors Railway, who operate Pullman dining trains."

The NYMR has about 6 in its Pullman Dining train; here's one - just look at that shine. 










On the more obscure side, there was a "Brighton Belle" Pullman operation in the 1930s that used the 3rd rail electrics and therefore had a coach with a driving cab and no locomotive.










And then there's the famous "Blue Pullman", a more modern derivative diesel-electric version:











Which maybe comes in model form:


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## machiningfool (Nov 15, 2008)

*J&M heavyweights*

There are 4 J&M cars on Ebay from France for 1200.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

machiningfool said:


> There are 4 J&M cars on Ebay from France for 1200.


I see 6 x J&M Rheingold cars at 1199.99 Euros ($1500US) EACH if that's what you are looking at.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

For a period of about 24 hours, there were four (4) J&M NYC heavyweights listed situate in Clermont-Ferrand, France. The previous owner is a local architect.

They were "Dunkirk," "Catskill Valley," Dining car 387 and the "Van Cortland" baggage combine. The seller was open to offers and someone who shall remain nameless (not I, this time) bought them for $3,500.00 for the set, so - a fair price I would say.

I saw them at about the same time as the new owner. I briefly considered these, but I am not ready to expand my collection to the New York Central and so they were snapped up

You snooze; you lose. ;-)

Interestingly, the "Catskill Valley" had the *Southern Pacific* medallion on the rear and each of the four had a plate showing 2 of 10 made - a "first production run," apparently.

These were the same set offered to me about two years ago by a German reseller who was selling them for a friend, but he wanted perhaps twice the price back then.

Those Rheingold cars have been on offer for that price for two years or more running.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: A couple of months ago, just before my rather late bedtime, a J&M PRR "Liberty Hall" observation car popped up for $750.00 plus $20.00 S&H. Needless to say, I bought it while the other guy who would have grabbed it had he seen it first was probably in bed, 

I have not added much to this thread of late because I have mixed feelings about whether this thread drives the prices or follows the prices . . .

I am sure you get my drift.

I have added Pullman "Lydia" to my collection and Train Bleu restaurant 3402 from the Klein-James auction and most recently, not yet received, the blue Fourgon Truck 1260P.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe,

It was interesting to see that the original 20th century drumhead is nicely tucked away under the car. The SP drumhead appears to be a Sundance RR or similar hat pin, which looks appropriate. 

All in all $875 for a set is ok, a bit steep either by runner's standards, or those who have them and know the flaws/faults. That said, there will be some window work needed on a few of the cars where the double sided tape has begun to slide (due to heat) and the windows have tell tale signs of the tape residue showing. 

The 12-1 car in the Ebay auction was not "Rome", but rather "Dunkirk". the 12-1 Rome was the one in the auction April 30th. You should add both of these names to your list back on post #163. It should be noted that these are also not passenger coaches, but Pullman plan 2410 (or 3410) 12-1 sleepers. 

Both the Ebay and Opfer cars were sets, with the latter being #5 of 10. The boxes for the cars at Opfer were dated 1982 on the label, so we should take that as accurate? There are also other differences as noted below.

No doubt you noticed that both the ebay and Opfer cars were all equipped with AC units, represented by the bump-out in the clerestory on one side and the mechanical AC unit (with ice boxes) slung underneath the car. The interpretation of the AC is a bit liberal, especially the transitions where it steps down to the lower roof level.

The addition of AC seems to be limited to these sets, although doubtless some sets have been broken up over the years and intermixed with non-set cars. I know of one PRR set of coaches that has AC, which is located on the west coast. I have never inspected the cars any closer other than to note they have AC and are the multi-stripe scheme.

I am sure John Waggot. or Geoff Calver can give the full breakdown of exactly what and how was done.

The branding labels are different between cars as well. Some have a foil-backed sticker while others have a etched brass plaque, while the sets have a etched xx of 10 plaque and a sticker. Uniformity is not really an understood norm here. 

The xx of 10 cars also differ in paint as well. Most run of the mill cars (i.e. not a set) had a satin finish and either black underbodies or olive green, the latter belonging solely to the PRR multi-stripe cars. The xx of 10 cars have gloss finishes on the body paint and the underbodies are painted the same pullman green. Only the trucks, roof and some minor underbody detail are black.


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## machiningfool (Nov 15, 2008)

You were talking about the double backed tape, well, I am in the process of taking the whole car apart to repair that condition. After taking it apart, I am finding that the builder is really a precision sheet metal worker after looking how this thing is constructed, and done very well. While I have it apart, I think I will make some molds to see if I can reproduce a reasonable likeness of a heavyweight. The trucks will be harder to clone, they also are a wonder of sheet metal work., might have to design my own, looks to hard to reproduce them as they are presently. Bob.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Bob, out of curiosity, which of the J&Ms did you acquire?

I am not fond of double-sided tape myself. My "Edgar Allan Poe," arrived with the the Plexi having shifted as well. My solution was to judiciously apply clear silicone adhesive at a couple of places and then to hold in place with masking tape until dry. Silicone adhesive can be removed when desired without leaving residue.

* * *

Ryan, congratulations is in order on having acquired a matched set. This set will no doubt continue to increase in value over time. I wondered about the glossy finish and the green undersides? Had they been repainted as I at first thought, then the labeling {Edit: and lettering} would have to have been reapplied exceedingly well.

I looked at editing post #163, but the editing ability disappears over time it seems so I can't edit anything even a page back.

I have noticed that there are at least two kinds of labeling as well, but I put it down to John having used different labels during different construction periods. I seem to recall that he made some Fulgurex labeled cars as well.

My "Liberty Park" has the all-brass manufacturer's I.D. plate (indicating "as manufactured for Gauge One America,") whereas my "Liberty Hall," has the black and gold adhesive label - as do most other J&Ms I've purchased.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, was recently informed that those AC ducted J&M were offered by Gary, FAM as a limited edition. A customer of mine has the original paperwork from when he advertised them.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I mentioned having acquired British Pullman "Lydia" in a post above.

I haven't photographed each of the models I've purchased as yet. Lydia was especially clean:










Cheers,

Joe


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## machiningfool (Nov 15, 2008)

The one that I won was the Federal Hall observation.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jason

Gary Kohs sales company was [is ?] Marketing Corporation of America. This company predates his founding of Fine Art Models. in the 1980s, MCA was a dealer [or agent] for John Gummo's first company, Gauge One America. Gummo commissioned the Aster PRR K4 and NYC Hudson. He commissioned J&M to do the PRR and NYC heavyweights as well as the round roof box cars. The cars with the air conditioning duct work were built by J&M; your customer bought them through MCA. I am reasonably sure that they were not modified by MCA. The workmanship is far too crude.


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## machiningfool (Nov 15, 2008)

*All of these cars were converted to center cars in 1942*

1180	PU92R	BAFFIN BAY	3Cmp 2Dr Obs Lng	I	3959	6015	2410A	6/42
1181	PU92R	LEIF ERICSON	3Cmp 2Dr Obs Lng	I	3959	6015	2410A	6/42
1182	PU92R	MARK BEAUBIEN	3Cmp 2Dr Obs Lng	I	3959	6015	2410A	6/42
1183	PU92R	GOLDEN GROVE	2Dr 1Cmp Obs Lng 3950	4744 10/42
1184	PU92R	GOLDEN CITY	2Dr 1Cmp Obs Lng 3950	4744 10/42
1185	PU92R	GOLDEN HILL	2Dr 1Cmp Obs Lng 3950	4744 10/42
1186	PU92R	SCOTT CIRCLE	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	10/42
1187	PU92R	DUPONT CIRCLE	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	10/42
1188	PU92R	CONTINENTAL HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	10/42
1189	PU92R	ASSEMBLY HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	9/42
1190	PU92R	FEDERALL HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4889	2410A	10/42
1191	PU92R	NASSAU HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4889	2410A	10/42
1192	PU92R	LIBERTY HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4889	2410A	10/42
1193	PU92R	MEMORIAL HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	10/42
1194	PU92R	WASHINGTON HALL	4Cmp Obs Lng	I	3960	4944	2410A	10/42
As you can see Federal Hall, converted to PRR 1190, the one that I have, is no longer an obs. If anyone has any pictures of these car prototypes, before conversion, please post. Bob.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Dr Rivet said:


> Jason
> 
> Gary Kohs sales company was [is ?] Marketing Corporation of America. This company predates his founding of Fine Art Models. in the 1980s, MCA was a dealer [or agent] for John Gummo's first company, Gauge One America. Gummo commissioned the Aster PRR K4 and NYC Hudson. He commissioned J&M to do the PRR and NYC heavyweights as well as the round roof box cars. The cars with the air conditioning duct work were built by J&M; your customer bought them through MCA. I am reasonably sure that they were not modified by MCA. The workmanship is far too crude.


Jim,

Your post prompted me to do a little digging on the Net before bed time.  

I found that there are currently 49 Gary Koh profiles on Linkedin alone and of course, every state in the Union has a Marketing Corporation of America. But there aren't that many John Gummo references.

Seems he's from Pennsylvania and he once restored and then donated a Lehigh Valley caboose to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. The museum maintains a Facebook Page where photos of the caboose and other stock may be found. I am guessing the gentleman has a son who is currently a practicing attorney in Williamsport.

Anyway, I ended up finding and purchasing an original Gauge One America catalog over at Amazon which will arrive next week. It has write-ups in it on the J&M PRR and NYC cars as well as the Aster K4s, Hudson and Commodore Vanderbilt locos.

My current plan is to scan it and then most likely I'll put it back up for sale on Ebay. So I am merely renting the catalogue for awhile. 

I appreciate whenever long-time fans of rail and knowledgeable people in the gauge one community such as your own good self share what they know with relative newcomers like yours truly.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, yes I have one myself. There is no notation of any AC equipped cars though.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Joe, yes I have one myself. There is no notation of any AC equipped locos though.


Jason,
Did the locos have ac in the cabs to keep the fireman cool then?
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Jason,
> Did the locos have ac in the cabs to keep the fireman cool then?
> Cheers,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


David,

I think you and I have similar sensibilities - humoUr-wise.

Which means that what you say is unintelligible to the humoUr-deprived as well. 

Edit: I wasn't referring to Jason or anyone else in particular. 

Of course, this post itself is an attempt at humor which will fall flat.

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

@Bob,

Are you looking to restore Federal Hall to a more accurate Observation Car state or are you looking to covert it to a PRR center car?

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

CIWL Blue Container Fourgon 1260P arrived today in good condition due in part to a combination of good luck and good outer packing.

I would think that most if not all auction houses have their favorite packers and shippers. They aren't going to recommend anyone who has created problems for them. When I purchased two cars from the Klein James auction on the west coast recently, I spoke with the packer and when the items arrived, they were well packed and arrived undamaged.

But I did not discuss something that now appears obvious to me . . .

The takeaway . . . It is a good idea to ask the packer to look inside the box that they take into their custody and determine whether internal packing is needed as well.

The preferred packer for the Opfer auction house did an excellent job wrapping the J&M Model box with multiple taped layers of bubble-wrap. The package was then inserted into an oversize box and protected by an adequate amount of styrofoam "peanuts" on all sides including both ends.

However . . .

The packer obviously didn't give much thought to what was inside the inner box, because this is what was inside:










I consider myself lucky that this package was handled with care as there was a lot of potential for concealed damage.

I'll write a polite receiving report to both Opfer and the packer including the above photo.

Here is another look:










All in all, I am pleased with the new acquisition.

Cheers,

Joe


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## machiningfool (Nov 15, 2008)

I plan to make reasonable looking heavyweight center cars and by the way I like nice looking cars, but I am not a rivet counter, and along the way to gain any pictures or records of the Federal Hall. Other than the picture of the 1190 after the change from an obs. car, I can't find any prototype pictures of any of the Hall series obs. cars. I have found some out of scale plan drawings, but that is all, and I am still looking. Any ideas? I am wondering where he found the drawings that J&M used to make the Federal Hall. Bob.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

So when J&M just isn't good enough you buy these! A beautifully built set of Brighton Belle motor car set. Built by Golden Age in the UK. First full test run with both motor cars and the full 8 cars. That's 10 cars for the ful prototypical train that ran. Amazing the detail on these cars. All brass of course.

For some real nice detail images 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/brighton-belle-coaches-gallery.html


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Delayed reaction . . . ;-)

No doubt Quentin's *Golden Age Models* are beautiful, though the detail work is hard to appreciate while they are seen moving at speed.

So let's stop and take a look at just one car, Lucille:










and . . .










and . . .










I just have the one beautiful Golden Age Model Car . . .

Interestingly enough, three of the Pullmans that I have are world travelers which appear to have been in the same consist at one time or another, Lucille, Lydia and Ibis.

The Golden Age Models are generally built with the gray roof color, so one will generally have to accept a blend of white roof and silver roof models if one combines J&Ms with GAMs and one has not placed a custom order with Quentin for white roof color.

Repainting is always an option though it would be a lot easier to repaint a J&M roof than it would be to repaint a GAM roof due to a simpler construction on the J&M.

Concerning Brighton Belle . . .

I learned that there were 12 coaches built and three Motor Brake Driver Cars. A train in service usually consisted of two sets of five cars or ten units in all as shown in the video.

I am told that the spare 5-BEL set was sometimes steam-hauled for summer excursions, but I haven't found an on-line reference to support these cars being steam-hauled.

Edit: See correction below.



Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
Each 5BEL (Brighton Belle) set was made up as:
Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers
Third Class Parlour seating 56 passengers
First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers
First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers (reversed third car)
Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers (reversed first car)
So, in total numbers, there were:
6 x Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers
3 x Third Class Parlour seating 56 passengers
6 x First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers
I would doubt if they would have ever been steam hauled, as not sure if they could put the in neutral, so to speak, but you never know.
Also, the 'spare' was just that, and I don't think that they would risk having it in use just in case.
Incidentally, the 'spare' was always in rotation with the other cars, each set being a spare for 4 months during the year.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David,

Thank you as always. Got it! 

A driving motor car at each end.

From the Wiki; (therefore no iron-clad no guaranty of accuracy

"Three five-car all-Pullman electric multiple units designated 5-BEL were commissioned by the Southern Railway as the flagship of the world's then-largest electrification project, which covered over 160 track miles.

The 15 cars – built in 1932 by Metropolitan-Cammell at its Saltley works in Birmingham – were operated in trains comprising two units, the remaining unit normally held in reserve. 

The 'spare' multiple unit set was used for a Sunday Pullman service from Eastbourne, known as the _Eastbourne Pullman_ for much of the 1950s, but this service was discontinued in 1957."

As I indicated above, no mention of steam-hauling though someone from 'the other side,' who shall remain nameless indicated to me that the Sunday excursion train was sometimes steam-hauled.

It's nice that there is almost always someone in here who can fill in the blanks for us or steer the wayward toward a path of knowledge. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Joe

When the Sunday excursion service was "steam hauled" it was because an extra 5-BEL was unavailable and regular Pullman parlor cars were used.

I commend to you any and all of the four volumes on British Pullmans authored by Antony Ford.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Dr Rivet said:


> Joe
> 
> When the Sunday excursion service was "steam hauled" it was because an extra 5-BEL was unavailable and regular Pullman parlor cars were used.
> 
> I commend to you any and all of the four volumes on British Pullmans authored by Antony Ford.


Jim, thanks. Looks like Pullman Profile #4 would cover this nicely.

I looked for these volumes in the usual places, Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Ebay, etc. and found them favorably priced at:

*The Book Depository*

I have been getting much of my British Pullman information from these sites:

*The Southern E-Group*

There is a large (huge) amount of data including archived magazine articles on the S E-G site. Jim Pitts put me on to this sometime ago. It could take an hour or so just to locate and peruse the indexes. Sometimes I simply forget to look for it. ;-)

and . . .

*Kent Rail*

Cheers,

Joe


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Five Brighton Belle Pullman carriages are currently being restored for use under their own power on the UK main line network. Test running is planned for later this year, and public service is scheduled for 2017.

As one who travelled on the Brighton Belle 45 years ago I am looking forward to repeating the experience very soon!

More details of this interesting project can be found here: http://www.brightonbelle.com/


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Interesting when they talk about returning to mainline running.
I assume that they will still need the outside third rail, so it does kind of limit where they can run.
Locally here in Canada, we have an interurban that is run with a 'generator/battery' car behind, so maybe they will do something like that?
Time will tell.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Joe

You should consider that last set that Quentin has for sale before it disappears. I don't think many came to North America.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I received email from Quentin yesterday:
"We are pleased to confirm that Pullman set 3051 is still available at this
moment. This is indeed the last set we have in the classic Pullman colours. 

We also have just one set in the later BR Blue & Grey livery, which is
attractive in its own way because it has "Brighton Belle" on the body sides.

The price is GBP 6400 excluding UK taxes and including shipping and full
tracking by UPS to Canada."
I assume that shipping to the US would be the same, so that's $10,000 US.
I think that I will make my own, certainly not as nice as Golden Age ones, but more in my price range.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David

At current exchange rates GBP 6400 is only $9,240 US, but $11,880 CAN
I paid somewhat less given that I purchased two sets, and only three weeks ago the exchange rate was more favorable to me. 

I can appreciate that you can build your own, but for us mortals of model building; if you want something, you go to whomever is building it.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

David Leech said:


> Interesting when they talk about returning to mainline running.
> I assume that they will still need the outside third rail, so it does kind of limit where they can run.


The UK has quite a lot of mainline track with third rail. With only a few exceptions the whole network south of London is covered from Margate in eastern Kent as far west as Weymouth in Dorset. There are also third rail systems around north London and from Southport in Lancashire through Liverpool to Chester in Cheshire.

It is my understanding that the BB set is being refurbished in such a way that it can also be hauled by diesel and electric locomotives which will provide on-board power as required.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi fellows:
Just got back from our transcontinental USA trip with a good deal of roaming around the PRR middle division to get the feel of the place. So I am picking this thread up after a long absence. I think that I have an explanation to what ever hapened with the Smokers on that J & M set (At least on the PRR ones) A recent article on Dover Harbour in the PRRT&HS Keystone by editor Chuck Blardone sheds a bit of light on what their second career was: After the fleet of modernism sets came out in 1938 these smoker-combine cars where out of work. It probably seems that the all male smokers might have come out of fashion too around then. As I guess in the middle of the depression afluent businesmen smoking big cigars, might not have abounded as before... Anyways these cars would have been rebuilt as Dover Harbour type plan cars. I will look up the article in the morning and give more precise detail, but if I remember they were equiped with a lounge then. But these cars certainly did grace those consists before 1938.
That doesn't stop me from using it with my post 1938 PRR consists though. Just interesting to know what hapened to them.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Here is the low down I promised: I am not sure that this diagram which I will describe is identical to the Liberty Bell baggage-buffet club smoking cars with barber shop, but it pretty well matches the description. On the photo of the Welsh Broadway Limited book one can read that it is diagram 2958 or 9 under the photo. 

I quote Mr. Blardones article: Pullman built heavyweight *Dover Harbor *on July 1923 as the combination Baggage- library car *Maple Shade*, the first of six baggage-buffet-club smoking cars with Barber shop, bath and shower built to plan 2951 B in lot 4698. The 81-foot car weighed 80 tons and had a four section, 12 seat lounge, a barber shop, and a 28 foot baggage area. Painted in PRR's standard colors (Tuscan red), it operated for11 years at the head of the PRR New York to St. Louis service.../ ... On march 13 1934 Maple Shade along with six sisters returned to Pullman for rebuilding into plan 4015C 6DBR- Buffet-lounge cars (by replacing the baggage section with revenue producing bedrooms) it was fitted with air conditioning, its trucks were changed from 242 to 2410 A, and it was renamed Dover Harbor.../ ... it was repainted in Pullman green and it was assigned to the Michigan central (NYC).

And I wanted to use it behind my GG1, my T1 and my Alco’s PA1 darn!


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Time for a little follow-up . . .

I never did "pull the trigger" on that last Brighton Belle set and I do see that G.A.M. may be in some jeopardy. I do hope things get sorted as these models are among the most beautiful and there are so few of equal quality being made for Gauge 1. 

There is an "urgent appeal" message on the Golden Age Models site.

*Urgent Appeal*

Meanwhile . . .

I have noticed that there are fewer J&M models turning up at the auction houses than there were when this thread began, or so is my perception even if my observation may be off. 

There is no reason to think that J&Ms are going to become more available over time as there aren't any more of them to ripen on the vine.

Currently I have three Etoile du Nord J&M coaches and I saw an opportunity to acquire two that I did not yet have which were being auctioned off today at Tennants Auction House:










and this one as well:










The auction house thought they'd sell for between 200 and 300 GBP, but I was sure that they'd sell for more.

Knowing that I would not be up early in the day today, this day after Thanksgiving celebration, I set my auto-bid to what I thought would be the highest I would want to go for these - 750 GBP - and if I had managed to remember to log in and live bid, I am sure I'd have gone a bit higher.

You snooze; you lose.

Turns out that one person more interested than I, bought them for 800 GBP each. I wonder what would have happened had I set my bid for 850? They'd have probably sold for 900 each.

The final cost was the price bid plus 25.8% fees and VAT, so 944 GBP. Perhaps overseas buyers could have saved the VAT.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

I do not know whether it is mentioned here before: The German high-end model manufacturer Wunder has made Orient Express coaches (sold out now) and has announced Etoile du Nord and Fleche d'Or coaches in Gauge 1. Prices are a bit higher then J&M however and I question the used color combinations (website only in German language):
https://wunder-modelle.jimdo.com/unsere-produkte/spur-1-waggons/ciwl-orient-express/ 

https://wunder-modelle.jimdo.com/unsere-produkte/spur-1-waggons/ciwl-edelweiss-gotthard-pullman-express/

Regards
Fred


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thank you, Fred.

I don't recall Wunder being mentioned in this thread previously. These models appear to be highly detailed but may not be for the faint at heart. 

On Ebay for quite some time has been a set which includes 6 Wunder CIWL cars and a baggage car from Kiss for a mere 29,990 Euro, so about $5,100.00 per car, on average.

Seems the blue and white are for the Edelweiss trains and the all-blue S type are modeled for the Munich to Salzburg run. Prices range from an average of 3,600 Euro per car to a high average of 4,400 Euro per car.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Shelve queens for sure. Imagine running one of those outdoors? But it is nice to know someone is making WL again in gauge one. Of course many German and Swiss modelers run gauge one indoors and electric, so I guess to this niche market it does relate...


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I keep an eye out looking for J&Ms even when I have no interest in purchasing on my own account.

Yesterday, two New York Central cars were put up on Ebay for $999.00 each. The Observation car, *Liberty Hall*, sold overnight, but *Churchville* remains available at the same price.

I find it odd that the Liberty Hall car is painted green and with the New York Central plate on the rear as Liberty Hall was, as far as i know, only a PRR observation car. I do have one in Tuscan red with gold lining.

There is a *NYC #383* dining car listed on the German Ebay site in the last day or two for 1,500 €. The dining car is rare, but the price seems a high.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

A NYC Liberty Hall is indeed strange. I have lots of J&M documentation (loose catalogs and flyers) and on one sheet the names of the NYC observation cars mentioned are Hudson Valley, Mohawk Valley and Niagara Valley. The price lists do not mentioned car names.

I do not know whether J&M ever made a car named Hudson valley; I ordered one and received Niagara Valley (with 383, Van Twiller and Churchville forming a train):



Regards
Fred


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Thanks Fred,

I enjoyed your video as well. Nice train.

Here is the link for the original listing:

Ebay, Sold NYC "Liberty Hall"

I have documentation on hand as well and one wonders about how this version came to be?

By the way, I have borrowed a number of original J&M catalog cut sheets from the UK and I have scanned them and put them into PDF format.

I also have a copy of a 32-page color *Gauge One America *catalog that I bought on Amazon and I've scanned it but I have not made the time to recompile the scans into an e-catalogue.

Anyone who has J&M catalog information and who is willing lend it to me for scanning and return of the original will get copies of all that I have on hand sent via email.

Please don't post here, but please do send a private message if you'd care to do so.

Cheers,

Joe


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

StackTalk said:


> Thanks Fred,
> 
> I enjoyed your video as well. Nice train.
> 
> ...


Here is a slection of videos with trains with coaches by J&M running in my garden:
http://sncf231e.nl/trains-with-coaches-made-by-jm-models/

@Joe, I will send a PM about J&M documentation.
Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi fellows: After a move to southern France in 2019 and a few month in the hospital for a Myeloma I am back and kicking again. I have built a new layout with very wide curves no grades and where most of it is at table top height. It features a four track mainline across a representation of Rockville bridge and Horseshoe curve, this created the much needed long siding for 50 car freights. Half of the layout will have a PRR theme and te other half a French Nord theme. Yesterday I was overjoyed because one of the main reasons for going to larger radius curves was in the hope that my NORD Atlantic made by JVR would be able to haul my representation of what was probably the greates luxury train in Europe: The two day trains from Paris to Brussels and Amsterdam named Etoile du Nord and Oiseau Bleu. These two trains were hauled from Paris Nord to Brussels by the Nord atlantics right up untill WW 2. Lately I had very bad runs with the Atlantic and when I steamed it for the first time here the other day whith my friend Chris Ludlow, not only was it sluggish but it limped. This on afterthought led me to check the valve timing and sure enough one of the stop collars had come loose. With a little air it was set right again and yesterday I made another test. This time it propulsed the four J&M pullmans and two baggage cars around in style at track speed for four laps and a half, not bad for a loco without water level and excentric water pump. the new track being 99 meters long that breaks out at 3 scale kilometers. I pumped her up again two times and did 14 laps of the pike. I took out some Nord signals I have made for atmosphere on the viaduct. The barn in the background is actually a neighbour and should be for sale in a few months.
















So I am glad that this effort to make a new layout with wide curves has paid off and that now this atlantic can haul this historic train. Now I must find an Etoile du Nord second class pullman and hopefully make a trade with a golden arrow one that I have. Watch this space for more photos of the new pike.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Welcome back!
The layout (and the train) look great. The baggage car (behind the Atlantic) does not look like a J&M car?

Regards
Fred


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Yes welcome back, and what a layout ! I love the big curves and the height ( good for old backs) that Atlantic is one loco that I lust over as it has great looks and perfect for the train you want to replicate. I wish Aster would do one as my scratch build skills are limited. Please submit some more images of your layout sometime and the trains you run on it.
Russell


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan Pantages said:


> I would love to have several heavyweights that I could repaint GN for my S2 and I would have David Leech make replacement trucks so they would roll better. Instead I am repainting some Aristocraft heavyweights, yes I know they are not the correct scale but too bad. What's needed is someone to make heavyweights for 1/3 that price. No, you're not crazy. If this was crazy none of us would be in this hobby, you spent how much for a toy train? I know you've all heard this.


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan...would this do ??? USA Trains Passenger Cars


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam, I have 9 Aristocraft coaches that I have repainted, put GN graphics on and changed them to body mount KD couplers with working diaphragms (David Leech), LED lighting using a 9V battery with the original switch and ball bearings on the side frames so they roll perfectly. Two of them are Pullman sleepers which all I had to do was put the ball bearings in them. The USA Trains are 1/29 and the Aristocraft are less than half the price and between 1/30 and 1/31 scale. So if I put people in them, at the most I will say each car cost an extra $100 over what I paid for them. (not the Pullmans as I didn't have to paint them or re-decal them) They make a great consist behind my Aster S2. OK, they are all the same length which I know is wrong and yes they are not the correct scale, but it's my train and I will run what I want. :>)


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Why is this thread from 2014 showing up now. Nedds to be put back to bed.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

livesteam5629 said:


> Why is this thread from 2014 showing up now. Nedds to be put back to bed.


Sheesh, Noel. You are getting as curmudgeonly as Fred. 

The thread is 12 pages long, and before its recent resurrection it was alive in 2018. M. Du-Bousquetaire said just above


du-bousquetaire said:


> After a move to southern France in 2019 and a few month in the hospital for a Myeloma I am back and kicking again.


And considering that Accucraft is now selling J&M coaches, the thread may be quite useful.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Pete Thornton said:


> Sheesh, Noel. You are getting as curmudgeonly as Fred.


What did I do wrong?
Regards
Fred


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

fredlub said:


> What did I do wrong?


Over on the thread about Spectrum loco brushes you berated the new guy and demanded his real name. I didn't think it was too friendly  Sorry to offend.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Pete Thornton said:


> Over on the thread about Spectrum loco brushes you berated the new guy and demanded his real name. I didn't think it was too friendly  Sorry to offend.


I had not written anything in the Spectrum loco brushes thread (and have thus not berated any new guy) but have posted in this J&M thread; there is more than one Fred and they are not all, if any, curmudgeonly.
Regards
Fred


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

fredlub said:


> had not written anything in the Spectrum loco brushes


I am pleased to hear it wasn't you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Very nice layout Simon . . .

I have been quite inactive in the hobby these days but health is good and glad to see that you are well and still "kicking." 

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

So as not to polute this thread on J&M coaches I just posted a new post describing the layout.Check it out, best to all and happy steaming.
Simon


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Simon. Where is your post, I did see some of your earlier posts/pictures.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Dan Pantages said:


> Hi Simon. Where is your post, I did see some of your earlier posts/pictures.


Dan,
He was probably still working on it when you looked.
I am sure you have now found it:








New layout in Ardèche


This layout is much larger than my old one near Paris, I had the available space in an erea not level but close enough to get the line inside it so we just have a short portion which is ground level this time. I remember seeing friends who had a problematic engine having to get on their knees to...




www.mylargescale.com




Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

livesteam5629 said:


> Why is this thread from 2014 showing up now. Nedds to be put back to bed.


Well I've just discovered this thread today and I've just spent an absolutely facinating couple of hours reading through it. 

I found it particularly relevant with the reintroduction of the J and M range by Exclusive Models/Accucraft and the Golden Age models by Greenwood and Pring.

It's just unfortunate that a lot of the images from the earlier posts are no longer visible.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

In my view, the J&M coaches are very crude models. And as usual, brass rolling stuff is very heavy. Very wide curves, and absolutely level track are necessary. So personally, I don't like them much. I want a train to be able to start rolling, without a manual push to the trainset.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

I completely disagree; look here: Trains with coaches made by J&M Models – Many different model railways in all scales & gauges. You cannot find gauge 1 trains that look and run more beautiful !

Regards
Fred


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I was offered a complete Wagon Lits consist, when one of our members deceased. The restaurant coach I like the best, with it's table lamps. I had seen them running through the years behind a PLM 231 A. At least with only 3m radius curves, the loco really struggled. Also, perhaps there are upgraded trucks with ball bearings for the coaches?

For me, I found them inspiring to perhaps build my own coaches one day, using lighter materials. And the very simple fake spring design, is clever. Because I have to admit, that looking at distance, they make a good enough and impressive impression.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

When Exclusive Models (Bram Hengeveld) took over the manufacturing of J&M coaches from John Waggott he changed the truck design with ball bearings. Also the newly available J&M sleepers from Accucraft have ball bearings. All my J&M coaches are made by John Waggott and they need some power to get round the track, but a good locomotive can handle that. 
The U1 can easily handle 4 J&M coaches with as a fifth the also not very easy running sleeper I constructed from an Amati kit.




Regards
Fred


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

fredlub said:


> =
> The U1 can easily handle 4 J&M coaches with as a fifth the also not very easy running sleeper I constructed from an Amati kit.


I think the U1 can handle almost anything you can attach to it. - it is an extraordinary locomotive. Whether the couplings will hold up is another issue....

Robert


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

My Aster Chapelon Nord gets wheelslip at six J&M coaches unless the track is really clean and then it can pull eight. It probably can take more but for the wheelslip and from I have seen the U1 doesn't seem to have the same wheelslip problems and can easily pull more than that, but the J&M coaches are very heavy even though I fitted bearings to all wheels and changed the pesky couplings that can break under load.
Russell


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Russel the reason the Chapelon slips more is that there isn't the locomotive type firebox to counterballance the excessive weight of the four cylinders up front. What the solution to that problem is (unless you get another boiler with a real firebox) is to fill the belpair shrouding with lead and also inside the ash pan. You will love the result. 

While we are on the subject of J&M coaches weight, it is a good case in point to remark that my NORD Atlantic which could not handle my four J&M pullmans and two baggage cars on my former layout with small curves (R = 3 meter 30) now handles them in style at track speed on large radius curves of 6 meter 50 radius. I would think this is why you can't haul more than four J&M's Fred. The U1 is an extremly powerful engine. Here it hauls four Neil Rose nord coaches (just as heavy as J&M) plus one J & M diner two marklin DRG and my scratch built Lx, and two aluminum OCEM,'s by JVR and my Nord B11 and an OCEM baggage in aluminum and I wasn't trying to make a record, just a representation of the NORD express. Which these handled often.
Ah the joys of large radius: Enjoy!


















Best, Simon


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Hello Simon,

A train like your Nord Express would look a bit silly on my small layout with only 3 m radius. I have never tried to run with more than 6 coaches, but the U1 will also on my layout pull more.

Regards
Fred


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Thanks Simon, I will investigate putting weight on the back end of my Chapelon, that's a good idea I hadn't thought of as it is very front end heavy. That Nord Atlantic sure looks good and that U1 with a nice long train on those beautiful large curves is fantastic.
Unfortunately, like Fred, I don't have the room for large curves so smaller 6 or 7 coach trains is my maximum but I do like seeing your new layout and what make is the 2D2 in the background on the first image? Are you going to put up some catenary and run real electric engines then swap to steam, you could do that with your Pennsy trains too. I would like to see a close up image of your Nord Atlantic and that 2D2 sometime.
Russell


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Russel: That 2D2 9100 is scratch built by me in brass. It is very powerfull having four nose hung Maxon motors with module 0,5 brass gears. It doesn't have a true Büchli transmition like the Fulgurex one as I didn't feel good enough of a machinist to make one, besides I wanted it to be a workhorse and though that this transmition would be too fragile outdoors. I exhibited it at Expometrique the ancestor of Rail Expo about twenty years ago right next to the Fulgurex stand, the year after they came out with their much finer model... I do plan to use overhead wires on the wye between the indoor terminus and the layout, as I like making catenary, with an engine change at the junction with the mains. As it was a bit lonely amongst my NORD stuff and Modelbex was at last offering a CC7100, I bought one so I can give a fair representation of the Paris- Lyon - Marseille line in its heyday. I was modeling the PLM and changed because JVR coinvinced me that the NORD had a much more brilliant motive power staff. of course at that time I was living on an erea served by the NORD. But I traveled so many times on the old PLM main line that I am attached to it. I often rode the postal train which made all stops between Laroche Migennes and Lyon, and left Paris at midnight then backed up to the postal terminal before taking the main, it was hauled by these. Also on the Simplon Orient express. That line used to be very impressive with trains every three minutes on its four tracks right through the night in the late sixties i tried to sleep in an old abandoned Block station along the right of way but couldn't because of the intense traffic? this is why the SNCF did the TGV line because it was reaching saturation.








This engine can haul 16 J&M cars without problems. (except with steel replacement hooks for the couplers)


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Great model you made there Simon, I like the older electric locomotives and the CC7100 is very good too. You rarely see overhead catenary on a garden railway especially using steam and electric such as 2D2 swapping with a 231K or 241P that really gets the imagination going. I have a liking for the BB12000 and CC14000 series centre cab electrics of the Nord and Est as well.
I can also see you also doing a run with a Penssy GG1 electric swapping with say a steam K4 Pacific when you are in American mode of operation. Great layout with great possibilities.
Russell


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Originally I had planned to electrify with catenary the wye which links the indoor terminus with the main line. However it turns out that the short loco siding or pocket that I wanted to install near both junctions of the wye with the main in order to store the electric motor, while the live steam loco couples on to the train, is problematic. There is not enough concrete base where I would install these short sidings. I will probably get to it when the rest of the layout is finnished, as there is still a lot to do before I can get to that.
It is out of the question to electrify the main as I like hands on operation of live steamers. Even with radio control you still have to fuel up oil around and water up and catenary would definitly be in the way.
The CC 7100 is not my build but a Modelbex model recently released, I used to love those engines as a child on the line to Aix les Bains, the nice thing with it too is that a few where equiped with third rail shoes in order to climb from Chambery to Modane and the Mont Cenis tunnel, So although mine is not the correct number, they were seen running with the pans down.
I find the BB 12000 and the CC 14000 very interesting prototypes also.
Of course the Pennsy had the GG1 which is my all time favourite electric loco.
Best, Simon


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Thanks for the photo Simon, the GG1 is the most attractive electric loco appreciated around the world for it's styling and installing catenary on the whole layout would be problem when running live steam but at least your loco's are true to their power source; steam engines run on steam and electrics by electric power. A great layout.
Russell


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

That PRR GG1 has to be one of the best looking electrics ever built.
Thank you Raymond Loewy for giving it to us.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Although this isn't really anywhere near the subject of this thread I thought folks might want to know what I did to this MTH GG1 to make it more realistic and felt that making a new thread wouldn't be worth it : It was the engine that made me go to modeling US prototypes because it was well proportionned and yet at an affordable price (back in 2009) and I had known the prototype well :
First I lowered the body onto the chassis, this was a fairly easy job using the router attachement to my dremel to keep the distance of the milling tool at the correct depth of cut from the body side, I simply milled down the tabs into which the screws hold the body to the frame.
Second I decided to turn down the flanges on the otherwise well detailed drivers and pony wheels; of course this requires the aid of a lathe.
Third I fitted it with Kadee scale couplers (the short draw gear works fine).
Fourth I filed down the pantographs to about one half of their thickness. This is a very tedious job done by hand, it takes forever because the steel used is very tough, which on the other hand keeps the pantograph sturdy which in outdoor use is a plus) That way although the real pans are tubular it at least has the right proportions and it improves the aspect of the loco enormously. I 
blackened them after filing. This photo showsthis very well. The cars are Davids very own PRR prototype drawing cars.
















I unfortunatly kept the pick up shoes as the MTH wheels are made from a lousy aloy for pick up and with the adhesion tires only one driver really takes the current. If I had operated with overhead wires I could supress this ugly feature. By the way as this loco runs a great deal, I fitted brass slippers over the pick up shoes which I replace now and then, saving the purchase of the pricey new shoes, as MTH doesn't make these any more it is a very useful tip for prolonging the life of these pick up shoes.
I have also converted one of the 4-6-0 chassis to be rigid with the pilot as per prototype ? this works OK and I will eventually do the other that way too. I use bicycle inner tubes cut with scisors to make new traction tires when needed. Of course if I lived in the USA and could just go to the local Hobby shop and get these , I probably wouldn't have bothered. These photos date back to 2010 when the Gee was new and the coaches had just been built and painted. These David Leech coaches and the Gee have run up thousands of scale miles since.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi guys : Here are some of my first videos of that 2D2 9100 going around my new layout with a long train. I finally figured out how to post a video!
The first shows one end and side of the layout, please note that the barn behind the viaduct belongs to a neighbour and is awaiting sale which explains why its overgrown with ivy (makes a great backdrop though). Apologies for the slang words used when I realised I couldn't do a pan because of the pine. The second shows the other side closer to the ground. Large radiusses makes the layout sort of like an N scale pike, you get to see the trains from afar. Enjoy!
VID_20211214_154539.mp4

VID_20211214_154641.mp4


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Simon,
What a wonderful railway, in a wonderful garden, with great looking weather and a moon too.
Thanks for sharing.
Merry Christmas All,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

There are four J&M PRR passenger cars for sale at G Scale. Also one J&M Orient Express car. Prices seemed reasonable to me.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks David I like your pike also with its nice reverse curves. I was reassured when I saw that you ave pine needles too. For me it was something new, but I now know how to handle it. Best and merry Christmas, Simon


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Greetings,

Has it really been 8 years since I started this thread?

I reckon so!

I have collected quite a few J&M Model cars since then and now I am letting just a couple of them go. So far, I have listed on Ebay, the three Fleche D'Or cars that I have, 4018E First Class "Voiture Salon Pullman" as well as Fourgon 1260M and the even more elusive Fourgon Truck, 1262P. All are in good condition as seen in the photos.

I also have a set of Gauge 1 Model Company, Accucraft BR Mark 1 coaches listed - in western chocolate and cream livery - which include MyLocoSound - Chris Arundell lighting added and passengers inside as well.

I'm not selling any of a number of other cars at this time; just thinning out the herd a bit. 

I am in no particular hurry, so not a "distress sale," by any means.

If anyone has an interest, I am listing under my company name aatcommsys and I will offer a discount to anyone who wishes to purchase from me directly contacted through this site.

Feel free to PM me your interest.

Cheers,

Joe


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