# Mounting the Phoenix coupler



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

What, am I the first person to buy one of those nifty new Phoenix remote control couplers? I don't think I've seen even one posting about actually mounting them.

This morning I flipped my trusted USAT S4 switcher and removed the Kadee coupler that has, up til now, worked fine except that if I wanted to uncouple from whatever it was coupled to, I had to walk to wherever they were and do the d eal right there. (I decided to hold off on mounting the uncoupler magnets until I tested the Phoenix rem. control unit.)

I am somewhat bewildered - to say nothing of bewitched and bothered. I don't remember how the original USAT knuckles were mounted in the first place. That was five years ago Where is Ted D. when I need him?

JackM


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'd check Greg E's website, he hosts many of Ted's solutions....


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm ahead a ya on that. Nothing there although I did see a mention of another remote controlled coupler named TAS. I brief search didn't ge me much - seems it might be Australian but I couldn't find any links my browser picked up.

Working with my stuff has me seriously worried. I have all my stuff wearing #1 Kadees. Talking with Phoenix's Jim at ECLSTS last spring, he told me they were testing their coupled with #1 Kadees and it seemed to work. I cobbled up one of my Phoenix's on the S4 and, against my Kadee #1 tester...was kinda difficult to make them mate. Not sure if the Kadee needs to be ""electrified" to mate. I certainly don't want to change all my rolling stock to "G" size, nor do I want to put my $200 bucks worth of Phoenix couplers on eBay.

Sure would like to hear others' experiences.

JackM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Can't help much on the Phoenix coupler. From the photos, it looks like it mounts to the tongue on the truck or something like that--not body-mounted. I was hoping to have a review sample to play with at some point, but no such luck. 

I just installed the Kadee #1 scale servo-coupler on my C-19, controlling it with Kadee's new uncoupler control board. The Kadee servo-coupler fits in the space of a "stock" Kadee draft gear box, albeit a bit narrower, so it's pretty easy to body-mount. I know the Phoenix board will control the Kadee servo-coupler, so that might be something to consider if you've got the Phoenix boards already. I'm using the Revolution to control this one, but I've also controlled it with Airwire. 

Good luck!

Later,

K


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

K - Now that you mention it, I recall seeing a note somewhere around this place that the Phoenix will control the Kadee coupler. That gave me a "Phew!" moment. Since I have NCE, and the NCE cab will control the Phoenix board (while the Kadee control requires its own Kadee controller box), I can still use the NCE cab to control the Kadee coupler.

So I'm only out the cost of the two Phoenix couplers I bought from RLD. I already opened one, but I can easily sell them on eBay taking an acceptable bit of a loss and get on with my railroad.

Phew!

JackM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kadee's *new receiver* doesn't need the Kadee transmitter. It's a universal board designed to be used with existing DCC or R/C control systems--a definite improvement over having to carry around two transmitters and all that nonsense of Kadee's original "system." Essentially, you use one of the lighting function outputs of your DCC decoder or R/C system to trigger the Kadee board to open the coupler. 

I think in your case, you're probably better off with the Phoenix uncoupler control board, since it's programmable via DCC and you can address it the same as your loco or as you see fit. (And, you already have it.)

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Kadee uncoupler is a standard servo and I have added it to my Zimo decoders.
If you have a servo output, there is no need to get the other phoenix hardware.
After using this uncoupler I found uncoupling to be erratic until I found that all kadee couplers have a tap on the side interferring with uncoupling.
I dremelled this off and uncoupling is much better. 
I then figured out that this extra tab could be used for a small screw and then tie a chain to a standard servo.
Now remote uncoupling can be done for the cost of a (Kadee ) coupler and servo!!


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Dan - I just ordered a bunch of the Kadee #1 remote couplers so I can get things going (hopefully) then I can take your info and see if I can save myself some money on the rest. Truth is, I'm a bit wary of the Kadee couplers compared to the Phoenix's. I watched the video on the Kadee website last night; it's a bit offputting to face that installation with the chain and the throw bar, etc. But I will muddle thru and learn from each one. Definitely seems worth the effort.

Thanks for your advice.

JackM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jack, if you're using the all-in-one coupler/servo/draft gear, then it's as easy as mounting any Kadee coupler, provided you have the room between the end of the motor block and pilot of the locomotive. I'm not sure how much room there is on the S-4 in that regard. 

If you need to "do it yourself" with a micro servo and chain linkage, it's actually pretty easy. You can mount the servo off to the side in the corner of the frame and still get the movement you need to rotate the pin in order to open the jaw, and then to pull the coupler over to the side so it clears the other coupler. It's going to take a bit of experimenting with each installation to get the dynamics of the movement right, but it shouldn't take too long to get the feel for what works. When I reviewed the Kadee system, I built a few "mock" installations just to play around with some of the physics involved. 

Of course, now I'm thinking of ways to use micro servos to do things like swing the bell when I trigger the bell sound, or make the fireman shovel coal, or...

I suppose the "good" thing is that as fertile as my imagination is towards automating things like that, when I get to that part of finishing a locomotive, I kick into "just get it DONE!" mode, and all those extra ideas get pushed off to the "next" locomotive. 

Still, the remote uncoupling was just too cool not to install...

Later,

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Kadee 11221 coupler on an S4


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Just to note: No need to purchase the Phoenix Coupler interface board when using the *RailBoss 4 Plus control* system. It will drive two Phoenix Remote Un-Couplers directly.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Jim - Presuming you didn't Photoshop them in, it's very good news to me that it can, indeed, be done. I hope to get back to it again in a few weeks. I put that in my "ongoing" column - things that will always be there. I have a few things that I want to "get done and put behind me": install the new kitchen faucet and the subwoofer amp into my winter car. Once they're finalized I can start spending serious amounts of time in the basement.

JackM

Nice to see there's some clearance for the S4's motor block.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack, I've done 2 S4's, on the second one I moved the coupler forward about 1/16th so I didn't have to shave off the 3rd mounting hole. BTW, one nice feature of the new couplers is that both the #1 scale and the "G" scale use the same box, so you can interchange them.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

JackM ; yes, I laminated a block of styrene. Are you using #1 or G couplers. The #1 is mounted at "G" height
Tried to return your message, but address failed


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Jim - Think I'll take a chance and see if the knuckle can be swapped for something straight. What've I got to looooooose? Maybe some nano-springs flying, that's all.

All else fails, I might just have to cut & mount it higher. We learn by doing.

Thanks for the help.

JackM


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack, you will need to notch the frame to get the required coupler height.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack, interesting comment from Kadee regarding modifying a 1902 coupler to work in the 11220 RC coupler.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Jim - I received your last three notes in my personal email (forwarded by MLS) this morning. I just now checked my MLS Mail and found no copy of my note to you yesterday, nor of your note to me (#17). Not sure what's going on with all this.

Anyway, I am going to attempt this conversion. I ordered two pair of the medium offset couplers and I can't wait to get started on this project. Tomorrow I'll be wiring the Phoenix control board into the S4's rat's nest and see if I get to actually control the Kadee coupler. That will be exciting enough. Once the offset couplers get here, I'll attempt to take photos and pass them along.

December is getting to be more excitement than expected. The Kadee conversion, as well as the granddaughters will be visiting from DC. Santa did his shopping in October; all he has to do now is wrap 'em.

JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*Mounting the Phoenix Coupler - Part Two*

I'm going to elaborate on how I (and others) mounted the Kadees remote couplers on the USA S4. Seems like the place to do it since the title of the thread is: "Mounting the Phoenix coupler". Admittedly, I'm answering my own question, but I've been asked to explain what I have since learned in greater detail. Some of this information and photos appear in other threads for different reasons. I need to thank Jim Agnew and others for their ideas which I inputted into my head, shook 'em around, and came up with what could be considered Part Two of the other "tutorial". That one shows how the Kadee 1902 medium offset coupler can be swapped with the #1 standard offset coupler. It can be found at: http://forums.mylargescale.com/24-p...anging-out-couplers-kadee-remote-coupler.html
　
The USA Trains S4 has been "workhorse" for the past five years, since I first expanded my flowerbed loop into a railroad that goes somewhere (to the front of the house and back) with a working rail yard. The introduction of the Kadee and Phoenix remore control couplers was just what I needed. But I'm not the most mechanically adept, so I was concerned about making the system actually work. So far so good. At least the S4 installation was "doable".
　
It's been five years since I first installed Kadees on the S4 so I'm not sure whether I made any serious modifications when I bought it. There is definite evidence that I felt a need to take a flat file from my garage tool kit - that's about the width of the Kadee box for the 1906. That notch is visible in some of the photos in Part !. However, there's no evidence that I did any serious cutting to adapt the space for the 11221; any such cut would be seriously obvious and embarrassing. A bit of filing is the limit of my ability when it comes to a straight line.
　







　

Thus, I mounted the Kadee remote coupler in the same location as the 1906. The USAT coupler mount was removed five years ago, the two screws retained for the base of the filler piece. The space from the underside of the main plate up to the edge of the coupler opening is about one-half inch, by almost one inch wide. Some layering is inevitable if you'll be using any plastic. As in the photo above, the first layer or two is about one inch square with hole drilled or cut out to accomodate the two mounting bosses from the original USAT mount. Getting the height as close as possible is helpful to allow the "shouldered" screws to hold the laminations firmly. From my experience, you can fudge the size of the base plate a bit if necessary.
　
Next you have to build up to the height of the coupler opening. (We're talking upside down now.) The recent discussion of layering was very informative. A lot of different opinions. My S4 has a two fairly different laminations. One end has 8 or 10 rather thin pieces of Plastruct styrene that I had handy for the moment. The other end has a smaller number of thicker styrene. I can't find any serious difference in the results.








　

I suspect the choice of glue is important. As mentioned elsewhere, I used (okay, tried my first tube of) Locktite "Go2Glue". My normal preference for most purposes is good ol' Walthers "Goo". But I think G2G is going to replace it after I use up my supply (2 tubes) of Goo. I'm very confident that my laminations on each end are seriously solid. The test of laminations is drilling a hole down, just as you'll need to do to mount the 11221. To get an unmoveable block, try to cut the layers large enough to reach the back of the coupler opening so the block cannot swivel.
　








　
Using a hobby saw, you'll probably want to cut off the third mounting spot on the end on the coupler box to avoid clashing with the front of the motor. If you're not comfortable with that hair's breadth clearance, you can mount the box a sixtenth of an inch out. That's the next thing to do - mark your drilling spots. Unless you have a surprisingly thin pencil, you can mark them with a drill bit.
　
I used the 3/4" screw supplied with the 11221. You could purchase longer screws. I'm sure it couldn't hurt, although it seems unnecessary.
　
You may need to drill a hole or two (eg. one 3/8" or a few 1/8") to allow the coupler control wire access to the inside of the loco. Try to aim carefully. If it seems you're drilling forever, you probably hit the lead weight. If, as I did to my S4, you've removed the original PC board and rewired the engine for LED headlights, etc., you might be able to stick the control connector up thru one of the holes where the smoke and light switches used to be.
　







　
Notes about the Kadee coupler - I've seen it mentioned a few times that the arm that pulls the chain should be set at the four o'clock position (that would be ten o'clock when you have the engine on its back). My experience so far is that all it does is tighten up the chain without moving the coupler any. I've had to reposition it to six o'clock to get what seems like proper movement. It's also been recommended to remove the pull arm and operate the coupler a few times to let the servo find it's proper position. I tried it, no difference. Also, it's a bit tricky to return the teeeeny screw when replacing the pull-arm. The servo is very willing to move with very little pressure on the arm. How important is it? Ask the guy with a chain snapped right in the middle.

Another observation - when you're swapping the 1902 arm for the original, make sure you slid the chain end up the "hose" correctly and don't push it too tightly against the coupler mechanism. Test by wiggling the bottom end of the hose; the "fingers" should flex easily. If they don't, slip the chain end down just a smidge.

Regarding the Phoenix control board - perhaps because I've had absolutely NO experience with R/C cars, etc.(my son and I were into Amateur Radio back when I was that age) I found the connector a bit confusing. One side has slightly angled sides to differentiate it from the back side which has the silver contact partially visible. The connector from BOTH couplers face the same direction. Face the side with the angled edges toward the five-pin connector on the board. For a while, I insisted that the connectors should face opposite sides. Naturally, nothing moved. Happily, the Phoenix board is robust and didn't hold a grudge.

If I can answer any questions, you can PM me directly, or post your question here. A few divergent opinions never hurts.

JackM


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack, the black wire on the servo cable is the negative wire. The diagram in the Phoenix Coupler Driver indicates which pin is the negative pin. Also, when adjusting the throw of the coupler, I have found there is a "sweet" spot where the coupler wants to be set. This amount of throw is more important when uncoupling from the old style coupler. Too little and it won't disengage, too much and it hangs up on the old style knuckle.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I found that diagram to be a bit unclear because positioning of the connectors isn't certain (actual connector quite different from diagram) and I didn't want to presume standard color coding was used.

Yes, I'm going to hold off "final" throw adjustment until I can get the engines out on the layout in Spring. Should be reasonably easy since almost all my rolling stock have the same couplers. Time now to install a set on my GP-38.

JackM


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