# how to lose a customer



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

for xmas i made a list and directed my 'santa' to ridge road to order from about ten sets of preiser figures-to my delight she didnt pick a one or two,  she got them all, about $220


in some way, one set got the numbers reveresed-i dont know if it was my wife or the shop-ie instead of 123 it was 132-all the others were correct-


i got a set of duplicates-ie a set i didnt want and already had-bavarians fighting-so its not like more station passers-by or generic figures


i called and explained the situation,explained that the numbers had been reversed and could i send back the wrong set and get the right set-ie an exchange in essence  


and I was ready to order quite a bit more stuff-


until im told there will be a 10% 're-stocking fee" -nowhere on the site or the bill anything about re-stocking fee-not fair and one sided 


to me its an exchange due to a mistake-and i was polite about not pressing whos mistake it was -


so for $2.00 i wont be doing business with Ridge Road anymore-i cant tell you how pissed off about the fact they wont exchange without a charge for what was a mistake on a respectable bill-


(and had they said 'send it back but well have to charge you for postage'-no problem -)


i cannot tell you how much ive spent over the years with them


-but customers must come easy





now i feel better


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I can understand your anger in regards to this, but you didn't say if you argued beyond being told by the store that there would be a re-stocking fee. Did you question them further in the same manner that you said here in this post. IF you had argued that point further with them and received no satifaction, then you should post it here. But I don't believe this should be posted here if you haven't exhausted ALL avenues with the store FIRST.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes its easier to gripe. From their website - 

Returns, Refunds and Exchanges 

If you are not satisfied with something you bought at Ridge Road Station, please contact us. Everything except Christmas ornaments and trains that have been run can be exchanged or returned for store credit within 30 days of purchase. You must have the original store receipt and, for boxed items like trains, the original package. 

Unwanted items that are not defective are subject to a 10% restocking charge and customer is responsible for return shipping. Also, if there was free shipping on the original order, the shipping will be deducted from the credit for the returns. 

You must contact us for a Return Authorization Number before returning an item by mail. 


-Brian


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i stated the facts as above, asked for help and was told thier final decision-i didnt feel i had to argue about customer service or help them understand why it was a poor choice -they had a chance and they know what thier site and invoices contain-plus the clerk put me on hold while she consulted the manager and returned with the verdict- 
i didnt think i would be able to have her over ride the decision 

no i didnt but i didnt feel that i need to be my own advocate for fair treatment and customer service -i understand we differ 

but if you complain to me about my legal bill-you can be sure ill be the one explaining what transpired and asking questions and trying to make you happy and understand things, and making adjustments-sometimes even if i feel its not fair to me (within reason) -not the other way around-


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Brian 


sometimes its easier to assume facts and make a comment, from your website


where is that info on the site please? not on the main page in a conspicuous place -but rather under 'help'-which is not wher most customers look when ordering-nor is it part of the contract of purchase if it isnt brought to your attention before the time of purchase


i have dealt with RR for years and had no idea -why-because its not conspicous-and theres no way youll know if you order by phone 

-its certainly not on the order form or at the bottom of the page main page or with the list of products- 


-nor is it anywhere when one calls and orders- 



if it were applicable-





is an error the same as an unwanted item-?and therefore if it is unwanted because of a mistake 


-everytime a mistake is made and you dont want it-its your nickle-now does that make any sense to you?


sometimes its easier to get satisfaction when otherwise denied


how clear do i need to be with a vendor-the wrong item was shipped-they are the ones that can choose an action-


 


Brian wait until this happens to you and let me know how you feel


and 


even taking your point-the issue is whats the right thing to do?-i cannot tell you how rare this is -i cant recall a shop taking this type of position


-even if it is A POLICY-even if the customer was told about it by a BIG SIGN 


-talk about sniping from a website-and hiding behind a phone-bet they dont do dare this if youre a regular walk in customer


-this type of penalty typically in my experience is for people who abuse the store-or wheres theres funny business in someway or repetedly order and exchange or return


the issue is how I feel i was treated- 


 i feel i was treated unreasonably and unfairly and not like a long time, good customer


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Steve, I have had the same experience that you had, and I know exactly how you feel - the same as I felt at the time, and the same way I still feel! My sympathy goes out to you. Unfortunately the only vote you get is with your checkbook, but you can certainly exercise that vote - just as I have!! 
Ed


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

thanks


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Heres all i can say to you, and ive said this a bunch.....Robbie....RLD hobbies...
Nick


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. 

There is a difference between a return for credit because you do not want the item and a return substitution for receiving the wrong item.

Last year I mis ordered a passenger car and I placed the wrong number on the order number. I explained the problem and they hapily replaced the car another car with the one I meant to order. There was no difference in price and they did an even exchange.

So I would recommend you talk directly to someone in the train department axplain you are a frequent customer and your wife made a mistake. If it is a return for an equal value item I suspect they will do the exchange for you.

If you have an order you would make at the same time this would be a plus because it does cost them to open the return box and re enter it in their inventory.

At least they did a free substitution for me when I explained the mistake to the train department. It is worth a try.

Stan


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

to your point i did explain this and even told them the item i wanted and pointed out the closeness of the numbers and the desired item and even began to place an order for several other items-i believe i was very clear in the facts -a mistake was made somewhere i all i wanted was a different set-same price


and


im not at all certain my wife is at fault-but i did not take a positionor press it as her fault or the stores or to try to manipulate the store -i was confident id be treated right without any nonsense (FWIW shes pretty sharp and careful and not dyslexic, and a business type-and we havent ever had the wrong stuff sent that i can remember-the fact is i dont know or care whos fault it was-it was an honest mistake-two numbers were reversed-someone somewhere did it-so what


i must seem unreasonable now-but how often or how much must i press in order to be treated right the first time


-i know the 'squeaky wheel'-i understand your counsel and its accurate-but im finished 


do i need to repeatedly call -do i need to hope to find a 'nice' person versus a soldier? 


frankly i was onhold a few minutes-it was two dollars penalty roughly-its not the principle or the 2.00-its the attitude, and 


i lost patience- 


(-and im pissed at being treated this way-id be pissed if i was a first time customer having bought Thomas when my kid wanted Henry) 


-no less long term and significant $$$$ customer


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Call the owner, from my understanding and from a friend in Rochester, NY (AKA the City of Poverty) he is a reasonable person. If you have on your order list the 123, you should be OK. 

I had a battle like this with a tire dealer once, 185R Vs 195R.....


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Not taking sides here, but I've seen plenty of stores (online and storefront) that have a small restocking fee for items that are returned as unwanted or due to customer error. So it's not something unique to RRS.


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## Dave H (Jan 5, 2008)

Steve Denver,

I KNOW how you must feel, I think you should talk to the owner, NOT an employee.

However, with the way the economy is going: 

1) people out of work

2) The sheriff selling more houses, than the real estate people (too many forclosures)

3) In the paper today, analysts say CHRYSLER, will be out of business, by the end of the year.(unless someone joins them)

After what happened to Mercedes, when they joined Chrysler, I think every other company would RUN from them.


If $2.00, and a TOY STORE, have you this UPSET, consider yourself lucky.

The rest of America, would LOVE to be in YOUR SHOES.


P.S . If it was me I would buy another item, & have them ship it FREE.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Just about everybody has a re stocking fee. I would re order what I originally wanted. Put the mistake on the shelf in the shop. Somewhere down the line You may find a use for it. Maybe in Kit bashing or to practice figure painting on .

The of course you could always put it in the classifieds here on MLS Someone may want it.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

you are absolutely right-its not worth the headache and 


i AM lucky 


thanks for the perspective-


just mustve had too much coffee or dealing with clients


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ's right keep the wrong ones, order the right ones, and put the wrong ones on EVIL BAY you'll probably double your money!!!! I have spoken with the owner on the phone over a mistake by them, and he fixed it, even though he still sent the wrong thing, but he tried, and I didnt think it was worth the effort to call him back just kept the wrong Bachmann video. Did not get any video with the engine I ordered, and he sent the wrong one trying to help. The Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Whether or not the store has a restocking policy, an even exchange for an obvious accidental mistake (and $200 of figures ain't hay) and an obvious attempt to purchase one of each (you would have to be pretty catatonic not to notice what the order was about) is what I would expect as a customer. 

Policy or no, I would expect an even exchange. I'm still out the return shipping and time wasted. 

Trivial amount, but I stand on principal. I will pay extra for good service, knowing if there is a problem it will be handled. 

I ordered a USAT streamliner from RLD... USAT made a mistake and shipped the wrong one. Robby took the wrong one back and got me the right one. Not a problem. (and these suckers are heavy). 

I did not know he was stuck with it. By fortune I needed the "wrong one" later. When I found out he was stuck with it, but never griped, I was impressed. Customer for life here. 

Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 01/09/2009 8:00 AM


you are absolutely right-its not worth the headache and 


i AM lucky 


thanks for the perspective-


just mustve had too much coffee or dealing with clients







Steve,

I'm weighing in here with a bald opinion: I think you're right to feel the way you do. Vote with your checkbook, announce to like-minded customers your dissatisfaction, then let it go. You sorta got shafted. That's the business ethic today. I'm sorry. That's why I scratchbuild, scrounge junk to make different junk, and generally, P**s on the 'lay down your money, boy. I might do business with you' attitude of today's merchants.

Les


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 01/08/2009 6:00 PM


i dont know if it was my wife or the shop-ie instead of 123 it was 132-all the others were correct- to me its an exchange due to a mistake-and i was polite about not pressing whos mistake it was -


im told there will be a 10% 're-stocking fee" -nowhere on the site or the bill anything about re-stocking fee- 


so for $2.00 i wont be doing business with Ridge Road anymore


now i feel better


Sounds like you were looking for someone to burn. You weren't going to PRESS whose mistake it was? How could you not knowing whose mistake it was? 


Nowhere on the site becomes not on the front page, show me an internet sales site that posts restocking fees on their front page. 


$2.00 i (sic) won't be dong business with Ridge Road anymore? $2.00!!! Ten years of good service isn't worth $2.00!!!!!


now I feel better - do you really?


I made a purchase on the web of an item that when shipped to me had mysteriously increased in price as indicated in the bill. I wrote a scathing post on this site about it and created a bit of a firestorm for which I was admonished (appropriately.) Mine was about a $30 misunderstanding about a posted price that the merchant no longer honored.


I came to realize that no business and no individual is perfect and that if I were going to treat my life that way,  shortly I would have no-one to do business with and no friends. 
 
If you have NEVER erred in your life you stand on solid (but lonely) ground.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

When I mail order, I always use a credit card for payment. That way if there is any screw up on the order, I enter a dispute with the credit card company. 

I had a bad experience with train set that a vendor shipped. They sent the wrong road name. They mailed me a pre-paid UPS sticker so I sent it back and they sent me a used train set with defective sound with the right road name. When I called them about the defective sound the owner/manager told me it was shipping damage. The UPS inspector came to my house and verified there was no shipping damage. I put the credit card charge in dispute and told the vendor to come pick up his defective train set. They sent me another pre-paid shipping label. And once again, I was nice enough to take their stuff down to the UPS store and ship it back to them. 

When I questioned the owner/manager how he knew the defective sound was due to shipping damage, he hung up on me. 

One less vendor for me to deal with. But he didn't get any of my money. Just a lot of my time. 

If it weren't for credit cards, I don't think I would do any mail orders.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well CCSII 


if you had read the facts youd know i wasnt the one who placed the order-i dont know -i didnt overhear i didnt watch-it was an xams gift from a list i made of product numbers


 


and in trying to be pleasant and non accusatory i asked for thier help-didnt demand it or say it was their fault thier error-i was honest 


 if i wanted to burn them i would have made up some nonsense about it being thier error


-i dont know -


either the person ordering gave the correct numer and it was copied down wrong or the wrong number was given and it was copied down correctly-


-i wasnt there -so im in no positoin to know -only to ask for help-kindness-accomodation-service-even appreciation for a large order, even if they dont recognize me -get it?


yes i do feel better


 ten years of good service-or ten years of good luck-to me -now i know what happens if i have a problem-even a tiny one


i make mistakes -everyday, im sure


and i try to do the right thing especially when im called on them or asked to help or reconsider -and thats the issue, not fine print falderal, not 'youre not perfect'-and i decided to voice my disappointement with the treatment 


im glad you too posted about your problems -i remember reading about them and thought you were justified


youre right there might not be anyone to do business with-or


others can know now as do I that you are assuming a risk that you might not know about


and 


if you hide things or fail to reference terms and conditions-you cannot expect a customer to search the site or look for those terms-perhaps theryre in the area under 'candy'-you think you can buy something, pay for it, then get a reciept after the deal that says on the back in light grey fine print that there are no refunds, no returns, etc and thats kosher? ive seen this at best buy -it aint legal and it aint a contract-no agreement no knowing assent to terms-just sneaky


when i order from RR-i go to the site, find the list, product, check the price, and give a call-so you tell me -am i obligated to do more-? i can tell you that in about seven years of doing business with RR i had no idea-if you dont beleive me -thats fine -but a different issue


was my wife obligated? i havent bothered her because frankly i dont want to-i want her to know i loved them all


if a vendor has terms and conditions,  tell em up front-or reference them-(and since i have actually drafted sites so that they meet these type of legal requirements and let visitors knwo about terms as well as privacy issues,  -this is what is done by any informed company doing business of the net-


i feel better now too


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't have a horse to climb on, walk most everywhere these days, but I will tell you a story:


Last year (before the CEO's took my horse and near everything else) I was planning on adjusting my Christmas layout - a small loop around the tree connected with four switches to a large loop around the periphery of the living room. I needed two 3', two 2', and two 1' Aristo brass straights. Ordered them from the above referenced Ridge Road. They arrived well packaged and bent as though someone had taken the package, suspended it between two chairs and sat on it. The track was useless. I called Marilyn (I think) at Ridge Road and she said "don't worry, we'll ship again" and they did - no charge and no need to return the first shipped. Got 'em in two days and fixed the layout.


That's my $2.00 worth so I'll mosey on out of this thread. Happy New Year all!


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

10% ain't bad as Aubin's charges up tp 20% and they'll be real nice to you while they stick it to ya' ...


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Why is the "restocking charge" a percentage? 

Why does it cost $0.20 to put a $1.00 keyfob back in the bowl next to the cash register, yet cost $800.00 to put a $4,000.00 locomotive back on the shelf? I can understand that a cursory inspection of each, to be sure it is undamaged, might take a few minutes longer for a larger, more complex, product, but not as a "PERCENTAGE" of the value of the product. 

I have the same problem with auctions (on-line or in person) where the auction house gets a percentage of the sales (in addition to the so called "Buyer's Premium" that is charged the winning bidder... again as a percentage) when it took no more work to list and take bids on a $1.00 item than it does to do the same for a $1,000,000.00 item.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Local McDonald's just PO'd me BIG time! 
I drove 4 miles there and tried to order from the dollar menu. 
3 Double CH, 3 Fry, 1 4 piece Nugget = $11.24! 
The Nuggets used to b3 $1 and are now $2.09! That's .5225 cents a piece! 
Well I paid it.... 
Got home and guess what.... NO FREAKIN NUGGIES! 
I called the manager, he said I could either come get them (4 miles one way) or give name and get another time. I gave him my name. 
After I hung up, I realized I didn't even get an apology! 
I got in the car and went back (left gun at home) to confront this twurp. 
I give him my name and asked for a refund so I could go to Burger King from now on.... He refused and said he would only give me the nuggets. 
"whatever" my reply as I bit my cheek. He immediatly whipped around with the 4 nuggets (original cold ones no doubt) and said "tank you" 
STILL NO APOLOGY! 

I will never go back! This is major when you boycott your local McDonald's don't you think?  $.52 cent nuggets my [email protected]#$%!#$^!&!&%&


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## Robert Fasnacht (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 01/08/2009 7:16 PM
Heres all i can say to you, and ive said this a bunch.....Robbie....RLD hobbies...
Nick


*Some time ago when Al at San-Val hung up his spurs I was forced to look about for a replacement dealer. Al and I had done $10K's in business and I felt abandoned. Not his fault but it did begin a hunt for someone else who would be willing to be helpful on a regular basis. RR came to mind until I remembered they once sent me a message that essentially claimed "I didn't have a clue" about something and their cussed attitude put an end to ever doing business with them.. I had done some extraordinarily fine e-Bay business with Robby Dascotte and turned to him in an email and explained that I was looking for a permanent dealer who would be willing to sometimes step outside the bounds of a normal customer-seller relationship because of special needs and was he interested in being my prime source?. His response was positive, as expected, and I now rely almost exclusively on Mr. Dascotte for my G-scale needs. Well, you might say, that still does not address the matter of a restocking fee and, perhaps, it doesn't but that is meaningless. I cannot imagine Robby sending you stuff that was not correctly identified and reasonably (competitively) priced. Nor can I imagine him giving you grief over a mislabeled product.* 
*For what's is worth...*


*Bob*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe I am misreading your last part of your post Robert, but Nick and I are sold on Robby. 

I agree with your post Robert, I buy almost everything from Robby. I do not even ask what the price is, I know he always gives me a great deal.










I hope he does not mind: my front courtyard, l to r: My wife, Robby, his wife, his mother. (yes his mother)

As nice a guy as you will meet.


Regards, Greg


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 01/08/2009 6:42 PM


Brian 


sometimes its easier to assume facts and make a comment, from your website


where is that info on the site please? not on the main page in a conspicuous place -but rather under 'help'-which is not wher most customers look when ordering-nor is it part of the contract of purchase if it isnt brought to your attention before the time of purchase


i have dealt with RR for years and had no idea -why-because its not conspicous-and theres no way youll know if you order by phone 

-its certainly not on the order form or at the bottom of the page main page or with the list of products- 


-nor is it anywhere when one calls and orders- 



if it were applicable-





is an error the same as an unwanted item-?and therefore if it is unwanted because of a mistake 


-everytime a mistake is made and you dont want it-its your nickle-now does that make any sense to you?


sometimes its easier to get satisfaction when otherwise denied


how clear do i need to be with a vendor-the wrong item was shipped-they are the ones that can choose an action-





Brian wait until this happens to you and let me know how you feel


and 


even taking your point-the issue is whats the right thing to do?-i cannot tell you how rare this is -i cant recall a shop taking this type of position


-even if it is A POLICY-even if the customer was told about it by a BIG SIGN 


-talk about sniping from a website-and hiding behind a phone-bet they dont do dare this if youre a regular walk in customer


-this type of penalty typically in my experience is for people who abuse the store-or wheres theres funny business in someway or repetedly order and exchange or return


the issue is how I feel i was treated- 


i feel i was treated unreasonably and unfairly and not like a long time, good customer 





The best way to tell how good customer service is, is when a problem pops up and how a vendor deals with it. I have had several minor problems arise from several large scale vendors. Ridge Road has always dealt with them to my 100% satisfaction. Most of the others don't come close to that. There are pages of threads saying how great the customer service is at RRS. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in this case. I don't know you or all the particulars in this case. No one is perfect, even me. 


-Brian

btw - I easily found that info under Help on their website


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Robert Fasnacht on 01/09/2009 7:57 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 01/08/2009 7:16 PM
Heres all i can say to you, and ive said this a bunch.....Robbie....RLD hobbies...
Nick


*Some time ago when Al at San-Val hung up his spurs I was forced to look about for a replacement dealer. Al and I had done $10K's in business and I felt abandoned. Not his fault but it did begin a hunt for someone else who would be willing to be helpful on a regular basis. RR came to mind until I remembered they once sent me a message that essentially claimed "I didn't have a clue" about something and their cussed attitude put an end to ever doing business with them.. I had done some extraordinarily fine e-Bay business with Robby Dascotte and turned to him in an email and explained that I was looking for a permanent dealer who would be willing to sometimes step outside the bounds of a normal customer-seller relationship because of special needs and was he interested in being my prime source?. His response was positive, as expected, and I now rely almost exclusively on Mr. Dascotte for my G-scale needs. Well, you might say, that still does not address the matter of a restocking fee and, perhaps, it doesn't but that is meaningless. I cannot imagine Robby sending you stuff that was not correctly identified and reasonably (competitively) priced. Nor can I imagine him giving you grief over a mislabeled product.* 
*For what's is worth...*


*Bob*










Bob i think you red something wrong cause the only one i do busness with is Robbie.....
Maybe i red something wrong that you said but QUOTE {Heres all i can say to you, and ive said this a bunch.....Robbie....RLD hobbies...} THIS MEANS CALL HIM BOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nick


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I have had two incidents with Ridge Road where I have had to send products back. The first one was with 2 #6 Aristo Right turnouts where 1 turnout was generation 1 and the other generation 2. When I got them I talked to Ridge Road and Gary (the manager) said basically since there was nothing wrong with the product I could exchange the generation 1 turnout for the generation 2 turnout but I would have to pay shipping charges. Contrary to their policy of 10% restocking fee, he only charged me for shipping, which was fair... There was nothing at all wrong with the turnout from Ridge Road's perspective, I just wanted them both to be generation 2 turnouts as generation 1 are problematic and don't look as good. Ridge Road knew nothing at all about the difference in generation 1 and 2 so I educated Gary about them as Greg from MLS educated me about them. (Thanks Greg ^^) 

The second incident was just a couple of days ago when I recieved my 19.5 crossover track. When it arrived, it was brass and the invoice showed Stainless Steel. When I called them they sent a Stainless Steel version right out to me along with a UPS shipping label to return the brass version free of charge. They offered no hassle about it and were pretty nice about it. 

In Ridge Road's defense, they have some great prices and have been pretty fair with me personally. They did not charge me a restocking fee for the turnout when they could have. I guess they have to draw the line somewhere. They are a business after all and if they had alot of customers that got a product and didn't like it in person and expected them to eat the charge for shipping both times they would lose money alot so they had to put some kind of policy in place, and surely the employees are expected to follow it. I'm sorry about your bad exchange with them Steve. Considering you have done business with them alot in the past it was clearly a bad business decision for them not to work with you a little more like they did me. My other half says, "A satisfied customer will go out and tell 3 other people... A dissatisfied customer will go out and tell 30 other people".


-Will


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*I have bought from several dealers over the years, but after a few problems with them, including that famous restocking charge, even when it was there fault, I found Robby. That is the only place I buy my trains from now. He is very easy to work with. great pricing. Very friendly service. He goes out of his way to take care of his custumers. Very good buisnessman. When you call to buy something, its like talking to an old friend. And now we are good friends. *


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Never a problem with Ridge Road, either by mail or in person....well, in person I was working off a garbage plate from Nick Tahou's: 










As stated, I would have carried this "up the food chain" if you know what I mean.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 01/10/2009 6:29 AM
Never a problem with Ridge Road, either by mail or in person....well, in person I was working off a garbage plate from Nick Tahou's: 










As stated, I would have carried this "up the food chain" if you know what I mean.













OOOOOOOOO thats nasty lookin..........
Nick


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy when you said garbage plate you sure where right on.







Later RJD


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