# Mason Bogie and Climax at Diamondhead Questions



## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been watching all the videos and talk about the two new Accucraft LS engines that ran at Diamondhead. All I really picked up was that both ran excellently in forward and reverse. Could anyone that observed them please elaborate on their running? Like what was the potential run time on a tank of water, if it had an axle pump how did it appear to work. How many cars can the mason reasonably pull? 
I also hear all sorts of rumors as to what is in the Mid February Accucraft shipping container. Live Steam Climax for sure, but is the Mason Bogie the Electric or Live Steam.
Inquiring minds want to know. 
Wesley


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## scubaroo (Mar 19, 2009)

Wesley,
The Mason Bogie electric arrived stateside in December. We are still waiting on the live steam version.
It is supposed to be here in February.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Wesley, 

I brought both of them that were picked up from Accucraft to come to Diamondhead. 

The Climax ran very well never did a pull test on it but seems to pull enough with no problems. Run time was not timed but I think some were a round 35-40 minutes. 

The Mason did not have the pump install only the hand pump. Running it we found that it needed water after 15 minutes. So a axle pump option is a great option to have as I believe you could get around 45 minutes of run time before needing fuel. Pulling never tested it but it will pull many I am sure or that. 

Both are on the water and should arrive in the US around the 8th of February is what Accucraft told me yesterday.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

The Mason Bogie fuel capacity will allow it to run approximately 50 minutes, and as Mark said, the water needs topping up about every 15 minutes. If you are familiar with the tracks at DH, you'll know that they are almost always slimey with oil, water, and aluminum. Consequently the Mason was occasionally spinning its drivers when going up the incline on the round track -- with only a two Hartford passenger car load. I don't remember seeing it run with more than those two cars, but I believe it would easily haul more cars on a clean, dry, and level track. 

Keep in mind that in real life these were small engines and pulled short trains. I reviewed my Mason book and found that engines similar to the San Juan and Tenmile had 40,000 lbs on the drivers. Using commonly applied formulas for determining tractive effort, these engines should have had maximum tractive effort of somewhere around 10,000 lbs or only a bit more than half the pulling power of a D&RGW C-16. The book also cited examples of these engines pulling 10 cars weighing 12 tons each but at this size those cars were no more than half the size of a D&RGW NG boxcar. So about three or four Jackson & Sharp cars would be a reasonable load for the prototype. All this is to say that we shouldn't expect to load these locos down. 

The Mason had other features people might be interested in. For instance, the tender portion of the engine has a separate, slender, open-topped space that can be adapted to accommodate an RC receiver and battery. This would require a receiver with end plug-in only due to width limitations. 1600maH batteries might find it tight going. Since water is sloshing around immediately adjacent to this space, some method of sealing it off would be needed. It should be relatively easy to put a throttle servo in the cab but heat will be an issue with the enclosed cab. A servo on the reverser does not appear possible because of the special characteristics of the locomotive. Mason Bogies have their reversing actuator arms (drop links??) extending down from the top of the boiler. And since the engine pivots under the boiler, the geometry of the valve gear could constantly change -- messing up the timing. Accucraft has ingeniously put a detent system (forward, neutral, reverse) into each of the Walshaert mechansims so that each side of the mechanism will stay in proper timing -- regardless of the swing of the power unit. IMO, these detents require more force to change the reverser position than most servos would handle comfortably. For example, I did not feel good trying to force the engine into forward by hand on the Johnson bar -- it wasn't my engine. I expect that with a bit more experience on my own engine, I would have been more comfortable in operating the Johnson bar. 

There were no drain cocks -- a shame since Accucraft drain cocks work very well. I wonder if they were left off for cost reasons or some other consideration. 

The tender pumps have been downsized somewhat from previous models and now work much easier. The Mason has this new pump and also has a new, Aster-like, 90 degree angle check valve. Combine these with copper feed lines instead of a bulging rubber hose, and you have a much more effective system for filling the boiler. I will be eager to see the axle pump in operation to determine how well it is executed on the pivoting front engine and to see it's affect on running smoothness. 

If I was to criticize any one feature, if would have to be the steam connection from the boiler to the pivoting engine. It is the same silicone line with knurled brass fittings that graced the 1st run Cab-forwards. These operated fine on the MB at DH, but I consider them suspect to failure long-term and I expect that access for replacement will be very difficult. I would have recommended braided steel shielded hoses with more permanent connectors. But we'll have to see how well these hold up over time. Still, careful gas management to keep flames away from this area will be critical. 

On the whole, I found this locomotive most appealing. The detail and painting is exquisite, the cab execution is neat and professional looking, and the locomotive runs like a Swiss watch. 

My dealer called me on Thursday to alert me that he had received THE e-mail from Accucraft and it was time to pay up. My check went in the mail immediately and now the serious waiting begins. They must be close now. 

BTW, the combines were not in this shipment but are now on the water in another container, so they will join my MB consist soon. 

Ross Schlabach


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

When we ran the Mason at Jim Stapletons at one of his meets. The addition of the axle pump is required to make it mostly hands off. As stated already the boiler laste 15mins before the glass is empty. As for pulling it like the prototype can not pul a lot. We pulled 4 or 5 Hartford DSP cars and that was getting near the limit. The new Bronson Tate Colorado Central coaches and baggage can be pulled without a problem. I am not sure of how many Jackson & Sharp cars it can pull, though they are completely wrong anyway.
Here are a few shots of the Colorado Central cars I built to go with my Mason and also DSP 51. These are currently the only coaches correct for the current DSP Locos.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

The coaches that Jason shows are designed by David Fletcher and made and sold by Bronson-Tate. There is also another CCRR one with 11 windowws: the one shown gas 13. There will be another and shorter Baggage car in due course. The coaches are in their later condition - they started out with 'board and batten' sides 

The Colorado Central and the Denver & South Park, had I think quite an interchange of cars (freight cars from each railroad were/are seen ijn photos of the time) and certainly there were CCRR excursions to the DSP, which could also include a flatcar with a top - this had open (above the waist) sides, a central (and possibly end entrances - from the coaches?) with a roof and canvas curtains that would drop down in summer rainstorms (called freshets at the time) excursion car. The seats were around the inner perimeter of the car. 

I don'tknow if I will be able to get it but what color paint are you using for the CCRR coaches please - they look very good.

Thank you for the photos, my Mason (electric version) is either at sea or just leaving (I hope) en route to the UK from China by sea - transit time approx 1 month.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Jason and Peter, 

Thanks for the info about the proper coaches. In my posting I didn't intend to suggest that the J&S coaches were the correct period ones for the MB. But they are all I've got so I will pull what I brung! Now, however, I guess I need to check into the Bronson Tate cars. I do have a DSP&P way car, but then I need some house cars. Anybody know what's out there that's appropriate?? 

Ross Schlabach


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross, 

Bob Hartford offers his kits in a form of drawings so you cut the wood parts and all the castings including trucks are there. I have his drawings to do all the wood before I get the castings and hopefully Doug Bronson will be able to offer the wood to others too as he will be lasering it all for me and the rest of strip wood. Im not ready to work on those cars yet but having the coaches at least I have something to pull. 

Jay


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

So no movies of the AccuCraft Climax, I take it? :=( 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw the Mason Bogie displayed, but never got to see it run. What a Beauty! I saw the Climax run a couple of times, but only had my camera charged for one of them. Here is a short video of the Climax.



Sorry I didn't get more or get to see the Mason run.
Larry


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Larry, 
Don't be sorry at least you did get more than anyone else.......


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

That Climax looked great pulling those logs.


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## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, what great responses. Thanks eveyone and it looks like I can't go wrong. 
Mark it is great to know that the water runs out before the fuel could be a problem if you don't watch it. 
I think new cars of off in the future and I will just have to pull what I got but the brief duckbill roof lesson was very timely and informative. 
Ross I hope someone figures out how to servo the Johnson bars, that is what I use the most when driving my other cars. 
I was reading up on some things I had save and saw a video Dwight had made of Cliff running the prototype Mason, very interesting seeing 10 cars and a caboose so I guess I know the answer to my own question. 
http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/DwightEnnis/MasonBogie/Movies/MVI_0092-0098.wmv 
Larry that's the most I saw ever of the climax running. Cool 20 seconds. Thanks 
Wesley 
Livesteam 212


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks, Larry, much appreciated. Looks to be a fine runner with plenty of power, too. Great stoom pleam as well!

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Finally got a price here in UK for the yet-to-arrive Climax. The best deal so far, from a well-known dealer located in the south east peninsula, is £1450.00. 

Considering the whopping 20% tax we have here, and that's a pretty good price for a complex and highly detailed model that has had to travel half-way around the planet to get here. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape meares


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter - the paint used it Delta acrylic from the craftstore. Dark Burn Umber. 

Wesley - RC with the reverser looks as its going to be a fun/problem. My big push with not doing the valvegear with detents and lots of movement is its will make the direction unable to be controlled via a servo. There is a lot of slop built into the control levers and pivots so that the loco can travel through 8' dia curves which to me is way too tight. With the said when I have run the prototype and the recent one at DH going from foward to reverse or neutral you sometimes have to wiggle the rod or move the loco. I will end up removing the detents and changing the linkages to a swivel joint like David drew up in the Masterclass when I RC mine. It will be interesting to see if someone else RC theirs first and how it works. it is definatelly a beautiful loco and I hate to even run it to have to clean it up like my DSP 51.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

Note on the Colorado Central Cars: 
The originals were painted a "Chocolate Brown", One formula for this color is Floquil or Pollyscale roof brown with 10-15% black and a dash of red added. Also, Bronson's kits are designed so one can reproduce the original board and batten siding if so desired. They are fabulous kits.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Jason, 

Still looking but I will find something like it - thanks for your efforts, which have pointed me in the right direction for the color - next shops will be the car touch up paint ones, our 'art/craft shops seem not to have such a color - Grr! 

R Snyder, Thanks for that, the short baggage I believe will be board & batten, and I am glad to know that the present ones can also be board & batten. I can see there are some birthday presents going to be selected from your side of the 'pond' .


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## David Buckingham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Peter 
I am also looking at the two small coaches by Doug Bronson he is waiting for the Decals at the moment. 

Will be doing it board and batten and chocolate brown 

Waiting to see what colour the loco is as every photo looks different might do it as match set!!?? 

Dave


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## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, 
I work a lot with Winn "Placitas Steam" on the RCs, (He solves it, I am a great copier). He also is getting a Accucraft Mason. It will be fun to see the difference between the LS Mason he built and the Accucraft. With a little luck all the great minds and tinkers on MLS will figure out how to servo the Johnson bar. Sound like the best "driving" solution now is stop it on a straight track, and then go into reverse or forward. 
I am still excited and can live with it manual. 
Wesley 
Livesteam212


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I think with a little tinkering I can get it to work on the Johnson Bar. What I looked at in Diamondhead that you will have to go from forward to reverse then to neutral. In which you can do that with the stick on the transmitter. Going to play with it and see but I am sure the great minds on this site will have it done long before I do. So hopefully someone comes up with the cure and I will copy it....LOL


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Wesley - The valve gear on Winn's is the same laster cut set I have that David Fletcher cut for the Materclass. It is a correct and complete valve gear, the Accucraft was modifies to be a simple eccentric with all the Walscherts just hanging out there. They also used a detent pin to hold the valve gear position so it can go around 8' dia which would be too small for such a long rigid pivoting loco. Thats why the linkages and johnson bar have slots instead of a pinned joint so the reverser can move without the valve changing on a curve. Most of that would probally need to be cleaned up and extra movement taken up. 

I will end up making the correct swivel joint on my lifting rods


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

You guys are really something. None of us have even seen our own engines -- much less run them -- and you two are already planning heart surgery. Nevertheless, I wish you the best and hope you'll report on your results: good or bad! 

Ross Schlabach


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Jason, after your earlier posting that the duckbill coaches were the only currently available correct cars for the DSP locomotives, I went to my library cause that didn't seem right to me. I pulled out my South Park book written by Mal Hope Farrell. There were absolutely no duckbill cars in any of the photos. All the coaches shown and referenced in the book were of the normal clerestory style. The DSP&P even purchased a number of the normal clerestory style cars from Pullman in 1880 -- which is about the same time they were receiving the MBs. 

Now, it appears that the J&S cars as produced by Accucraft may be of a later style (or upgrade) but the side conversions for these cars offered by Rio Grande UK create a backdated car that (judging from the book photos) look close for the Mason Bogies as delivered to the South Park. But during the time that DSP&P existed (until 1989), I couldn't find any indication that they pulled duckbill coaches. 

Through other mergers, the UP did have duckbill coaches and these showed up on several narrow gauges roads that the UP took over. These included the narrow gauge Colorado & Southern -- which the DSP&P ultimately was absorbed into through bankruptcy, receivership and takeover by by the UP. I did find photos of some former DSP&P Brooks moguls pulling duckbill coaches in Colorado & Southern livery. But prior to that time, I don't think the duckbill cars were correct on the original South Park Line during the MB period. 

Now, if you can prove me wrong, then great! I will have a good excuse to rush out and buy a couple of the Bronson-Tate kits. In the meantime, my J&S coaches haven't been changed and still read D&RGW so they won't be prototypically correct when I pull them behind my MB either, but at least I don't HAVE to rush out and buy a bunch of new duckbill coaches to have a reasonably correct-looking train. However, I might be tempted to get one or more of the Rio Grande UK conversion packages to make some of my cars more like those actually shown in the DSP&P photos. 

I now will stand back and await my expected pummeling. 

Ross Schlabach


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## David Buckingham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ross 

You are correct as far as I know about the roof patterns but the Mason in the colours available would not normally have pulled CC coaches. 

By the time the UP and C&S were about the Mason were painted black . 

The full paint job only lasted a short period and the only excuse to run one on most of railroads is as preserved one where you can run any coaches you like. 

Rule ONE it is my railroad and I can run what I want. 

Dave


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ross / Jason / Dave 

RULE TWO; when in doubt, refer to RULE ONE!! 

Regards


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes Dave, I expect that the "bling" schemes didn't last long in operation. While it is hard to tell from the available photos, I don't think I've seen an MB in its original color scheme except in the builder photos -- but again I could be wrong. 

I was also interested to discover that Tenmile underwent an extensive overhaul that changed its appearance considerably with a new cab with square topped windows and doors, an air pump on the right side, a large air tank behind the tender bunker, a switch to a regular diamond stack, and a switch to a number instead of a name: #42. I wonder if anyone will get brazen enough to kitbash one into this later -- and apparently more often photographed -- version. Hmmm! It sure would look interesting. 

Surprisingly, by 1890, both the Tenmile and the San Juan had been scrapped -- after barely 10 years of use. 

BTW, you forgot Rule Number 2: If Owner of RR is wrong, see Rule 1! 

Ross Schlabach


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross 

I bought the coaches to run with my DSP 51, Tenmile and CCRR Porter. From what I understood the CCRR cars were pulled with the DSP locos. I have not seen any clear photos of the full decoration Masons in any of my 4 DSP books.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

I am going to run my D S P & P #51 and my Colorado Central Coaches together because that's what I have and they look good together.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By R Snyder on 02 Feb 2011 05:27 PM 
I am going to run my D S P & P #51 and my Colorado Central Coaches together because that's what I have and they look good together. 

...and no other reason is necessary. :=)

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

The D&SP coaches were a complicated lot, which is one reason why there are no plans/models of them. though I do know of a drawing of the baggage/express cars that has been backdated from the Colorado & Southern version weight/length folio sheet. 

Another reason is that a lot of the DSP cars were quite long and our railroads can have difficulties with long cars - they hit the corners of thier rooves on our sharp curves. 

Hayes Hendricks, a MLS member has put together a very good site for them at the following link, which also covers coaches in general. 

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock 

I find this site to be very interesting, and has answered a lot of my questions. 

Goto the C&S section and that will give you both the CCRR & the DSP&PRR coach fleet details, (photos and some drawings) so far as they are known. 

Some combines (the DSP had only a few) had a version of a duckbill roof - a well known photo is of one near to London Junction. They were later rebuilt with the bullnose versions, rebuilding seems to have been done a lot with American coaches (I am in England) - helped no doubt by the construction of them, with the truss for the lower sides. This is totally different to our coach construction style with compartment door all down to coach side.


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