# NGRC No-Shows...



## NW Jim (Jan 2, 2008)

Happened to notice that both USA Trains and Aristocraft pulled out of the convention at the last minute. Kinda disappointing. My dark side wants to assume the worst, but does anybody have any verifiable info? It would have been nice to see their stuff here...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Apparently Lewis Polk (owner Aristo Craft) was physically there, and in a booth, but nothing to show. 

Wonder why he could not bring at least some revo hardware.. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Not surprising with the away the economy. Later RJD


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Never mind what you experience daily RJ. Haven't you heard? We're well into recovery.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I did see Scott Polk there.   I'll ask some questions today while at the show.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Very surprising about USA and Aristo! The NGRC is considered one of the "Big Three" and as such, I would have expected at _least_ a booth with three or four tables displaying the current products! Disappointing...


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## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

The State of Washington has a tax law called "the Nexus' Aristocraft and USA were concerned about the corporate tax angle they could be tied into. Also, The convention hired a union decorator and the expenses to move in and out became unclear but the pricing for extra tables was around 100.00/ table. 
St Aubin showed up with very little mdse ( revolutions, eggliners, and speeders ) and stayed for Wed, Thurs, Friday only They are not here this weekend. 

Scott Polk did come. Not Lewis. No one is here with USA Trains. 

Other no shows are Hartland and Hartford who both were signed up. 

I think we need to have a poll on how to build NGRC back to the great events they once were. I know the economy has a lot to do with the attendance and the vendors showing up. 

I heard the NMRA 75th convention was way down on attendance also. 

I personally believe the conventions are pricing themselves out of a lot of people attending. 

David


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

David, Chicago has lost it's share of conventions to Vegas for the same union reason. Mayor Daley has addressed the situation with a lot of lip service and not much else.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm going to have a talk with Axel, I was talking to him on the phone and he told me Lewis was there... guess he got his Polks mixed up ha ha! 

The "nexus"? Like from the Star Trek movie? 

Greg 

p.s. If you read up on the "nexus", it could not have affected anything: (unless Aristo and USAT started hiring people in Washington for 50k) 

“Economic performance” nexus rules provide that a company with $50k of Washington based payroll, $50k of Washington based property or $250k of sales to Washington customers of certain apportionable services (or have 25% of the total of either their payroll, property or sales in Washington) will be subject Washington B&O tax on that apportionable income. Companies with less than these amounts of property, payroll and sales in Washington are deemed not to have nexus with Washington in spite of the physical presence that they maintain within the state, but only with respect to the taxation of these apportionable services.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

"Nexus" is an organization of states to insure proper taxation on mail-order and internet sales. 

Washington at least had to change their tax law a year ago to get "in line". 
At the inception, 7 states were part of "Nexus", and most likely more now. 

When implemented, I will be required to join this, have a "terminal", like a credit card machine, enter invoice number, amount, and ZIP code. 
I will then be told how much to collect, and at the end of the month will receive an invoice for collected taxes PLUS a "percentage" for the "priviledge" of doing business. 

Apparently, there is a clause which I have not seen about doing $250K of business in a Nexus state, IF they display in said state, they MAY be required to join Nexus. 

Stand by. 
Nexus may be coming to a state near you, and your internet sales may not be as cheap as they were. 

Still trying to find the clause in the Nexus paperwork to tell me about this, but if it's true, it will shut down conventions in Nexus states for businesses in non-Nexus states. 

Then there is the Teamsters......


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Oh, and one big company spend 2 months with their legal department sorting this out....and decided to show, but on a more limited basis. 

I have talked to them quite a bit, and they certainly weren't happy. 

Apparently Nexus allows states to look at "future sales" from promotions at said shows. 


Now, that said, one of the no-shows this time also was a no-show last time in Seattle, and THEN this no-show claimed the reason was the club could not guarantee 95 hours of "face time" with the consumer. 

Hogwash. 

You see then all and answer all the questions in 1/10 that time. 

Personally, Nexus looks like a PITA for those doing business, and if this is any indication of the chilling effect Nexus can have on conventions, well, think about the lost sales of hotels (and the taxes), rental cars (and the taxes), restaurants (and the taxes), gasoline (and the taxes), guess how much they lost?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Oh, the last word I got from one convention "official", un-officially, was the lawyers for some displayers advised them upon arrival not to unpack. 

True? 

Who knows. 

All I do know, having been on the floor Friday and having been at the 2001 in Seattle, there was about 1/4 the dealers, maybe 1/3 this time. 

They moved the club modules into the middle of the display area. 

This is the last convention I ever do.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The following is a comment on Conventions in particular. Not specifically the one now on. 
I stopped doing them after the last Seattle Convention because they got too big, too grand and too expensive to attend for too little return after trying to compete with the big discounters for the available attendee $$$. 

If I was ever in the position to go to another get together in the USA (or Canada), it would be to Marty's Battery Powered Steam up where I would be hanging out with sympathetic modellers.


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

[/b] 
>At the inception (fyi 1990), 7 states were part of "Nexus", and most likely more now. [/b]


About the National Nexus Program[/b] Member States[/b] There are currently 38 member states (2010) including the District of Columbia[/b]


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 07 Aug 2010 09:52 AM 
Never mind what you experience daily RJ. Haven't you heard? We're well into recovery.










Someone has a terrible misconception of recovery


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I Was aiming to go to the NGRC this year. When I starting adding coast for flight, car rental, hotel, cost of tours, cost of shipping any purchases back home it just got too darned costly for the 3 of us to go. Someday it will be back on the East Coast. 
LAO


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as I know California hasnt been sucked into the vortex of the Nexus, maybe if this one was such a bust they should consider moving it to another state thats more accomodating, maybe even Arizona or Nevada?


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Well since I'm here as a vendor let me clear-up all the false-statements. Two weeks prior to the event the PSGRS sent out an email to all the vendors attending this show indicating that there would a fee from the Convention Center Union to off-load any products into and on the convention center floor. These fees could range from $600.00 - $6000.00 depending on the number and weight of products off loaded and brought into the convention center floor. Then the state of Washington added an exize tax of 9.63% from all non-state vendors selling products on the convention floor, that would last upto 1 year after the event. So, it's not the vendors fault that manufacturer's did not show up (USA & Charles Ro) or decided to leave early (St. Aubins) but the non-disclosure from the PSGRS that there would be fees added to the thousands of dollars that we have already spent bringing our products here. 

Also, my booth is directly across from Arsitocraft, I have talked with Scott everyday and Louis in not here. 

One more thing, (In my opinion) this convention was poorly planned out, and what I mean is this. The Convention Center floor for the vendors is open for five days straight. Some days it's four hours long (8am - Noon) and other's it's six (10am - 4pm). During all the hours the convention center floor is open, there are bus tours going on. Outside the first day, the daily attendance is very slow but for some reason my sales are very good! 

What I think is happening for the 2011 NGRC is that Dave is trying to plan a three day Convention Center Opening for the vendors with 7 - 8 hours each day. Then either during the morning or evening hours outside when the convention center is closed, there will be clinics and / or tours going on. This way, we can all go on the tours and take in the clincis! 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*Working its way toward your WALLET....... *

Multistate Voluntary Disclosure Program 
Participating States 
The 38 jurisdictions below are members of the National Nexus Program. 

Alabama 
Arkansas 
Arizona 
California 
Colorado 
Connecticut 
District of Columbia 
Florida 
Georgia 
Hawaii 
Iowa 
Idaho 
Kansas 
Kentucky 
Louisiana 
Massachusetts 
Maryland 
Michigan 
Minnesota 
Missouri 
Montana 
Nebraska 
New Jersey 
New Mexico (does not offer voluntary disclosure) 
North Carolina 
North Dakota 
Ohio 
Oklahoma 
Oregon 
South Carolina 
South Dakota 
Tennessee 
Texas 
Utah 
Vermont 
Washington 
Wisconsin 
West Virginia


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

So next years Kansas City show is already doomed? I was thinking of going, but after the slow show here I don't think so.


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

"So next years Kansas City show is already doomed? I was thinking of going, but after the slow show here I don't think so."







Me either. Tis a long way just for what has been described.

We really enjoyed the Arizona NRGC. Maybe we will wait until it gets back there.
PS It won't stop me taking my vacations Stateside though.

Rod


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if Nexus means that it dooms a show singlehandedly, and 38 states already participate, then I guess we all give up. 

Looks like Nexus is here, and people have to learn to deal with it. 

Beginning to look more like an excuse than a reason. 

Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

We all just need to remember there is nothing more certain than death and taxes. A lot of us have been enjoying a free ride from sales taxes and finally those representatives we voted in to office have figured out how to get their grubby hands on more of our cash. Nothing new here except it seems to have taken them a bit longer to get the job done. 

Let's not turn this subject into a doom and gloom of the hobby perspective. Model Trains won't be the only industry dealing with this. There are far bigger industries that will be effected. 

The strong will survive.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
I have been to the show here three times this week. It certainly is not up to the level we are used to for national conventions. Kansas City will have to do something to build confidence that there will not be late withdraws after people have already spent money for registrations only to learn at the last minute that some big names won't actually be there.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nexus.....how come we haven't heard of this before now? 38 states now and it's been growing since 1990 when there were seven? C'mon! Get real! The reason the manufacturers aren't showing up is the economy plain and simple! Aristo puts out pictures and builds _one_ roadname and people notice! Bachmann re-issues older items (actually not an unwelcome decision!) and comes out with one new boxcar and that's it (no, I'm _not_ counting Thomas items!!) LGB is.....well, we're not sure exactly sure _what _ LGB is doing or where it's at! Hartford? It's just getting back on it's feet. Phil's Narrow Gauge? Same story. Pacific Coast Garden Railway Supply had to go part-time again. HLW? Limping along (I may be doing it an injustice but that's my impression.) 

When I was at the 25th NGRC in Denver last year, I was told that the number of dealers in the dealer's areas was "down signifcantly" from the 20th when it was last here. What has changed between 2009 and 2004? Um.......could it be that the economy tanked and that unemployment soared over 10%? Has the economy rebounded with average Americans spending like no tomorrow again? Huh uh. Washington hasn't found the answer (and won't in an election year!) This "Nexus" is probably just another bad idea by the politicians "Who only want to help us!" I don't really see it as the main reason conventions are having problems. Now, poor planning, bad communication, local unions extort....uh, _requiring_ exclusive rights to charge for all services (whether we want them or not) well..... _those_ reasons I can see being most of the problem! How much David learns from these last two NGRC's mistakes will hopefully help the Kansas City group to avoid them next year! (Of course, there will be a whole slew of _new_ mistakes for the KCGRS to make!







) The point is that we shouldn't just give up on conventions and train shows! If we do that we might as well give up on the hobby in general! There's plenty to do in KC! It's going to be a great time and I'm looking forward to it!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It must be frustrating to finally have the National Convention in your back yard and have it executed poorly. 

Well, since Kansas is a member of Nexus, if this is really a factor, then they need to prepare and adapt now, not waiting until the last minute, I agree. 

Regards, Greg


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

....but the non-disclosure from the PSGRS that there would be fees .....
Absolutely, Rick!
That should have been published on their website right up front, along with hiring "union" loaders and off-loaders.
I don't understand it at all.
What about a small-time vendor who does custom bridges, etc. Brings nothing but a sample and brochures.
I know there is probably state laws that "cover" all those fees,
but, in layman's language, "What a load of crap!"


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am going to the KC show. I can make it there in a day of driving.

I figure in all the stuff you have to go through to put on a convention ( if you don't do it for a living) there are factors you may miss. The tax thing and the union thing are factors they may found out at the last minute.

There are so many regulations that it is almost impossible to cross every T and dot every I


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, the show was disappointing but, I had a great time at this convention. The train show is not all there is to it. I went to the SWGRS in June. It was a flop! The MLS gathering on Saturday night was great. I am definitely planning on going to Kansas City. Maybe the will get the vendor/manufacturer communications done correctly. Could be that they will learn from this one. The schedule already sounds better for the exhibitors.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Just to give you an idea of where this is going, next year the IRS will start collecting data from credit card companies AND PayPal to nail you. 

Why do you think evilbay mandated you use PayPal? 

http://blog.avalara.com/blog/sales-...iance-device-for-on-line-retailers-the-1099-k


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## John Gaarde (Oct 11, 2008)

Friday evening at the BBQ my wife and I were standing in line behind some Puget Sound Garden Railway Society members who were on the organizing committee, so I asked them about the USA Trains cancellation. They explained that the Tacoma Convention Center had a union contract that required union members to bring the merchandise in and do the setup. They said that St Aubin had tried to estimate the additional cost and came up with about $5,000. Since this was about what they estimated their profit would be, they abruptly changed their plans, and those of us that walked by the St Aubin booths saw the result. There was a recent article in the Wall Street Journal describing how a similar situation at McCormick Place in Chicago was devastating that city's convention business. Not very smart, to say the least. But even with the disappointing Vendor Hall, it was a good convention and the PSGRS is to be congratulated and thanked for all their hard work. 
John


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## NW Jim (Jan 2, 2008)

You know, of the several conventions I have been to, the USA and Aristo booths have always been strictly display, non-selling, booths. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't see how a state tax would involve them in this situation. As far as set-up costs, I happen to have come across some friendly strangers in the parking lot who were vendors. Since I'm local, and had a couple hours to kill, I helped them set up their booth. There were zero union guys setting up booths or moving freight. As part of my business, I do trade and public shows all over the country and am very used to the crazy fees sometimes charged. To my knowledge, I saw none of that. Personally, I think that USA, Aristo, and HLW to name a few owe us an explanation on why they backed out at the last minute. There was very little to no "energy" in the vendor hall - really too bad for those of us who wanted a good shopping/buying experience. I hope the folks in KC get a nice big non-refundable deposit from their vendors to help alleviate this from happening again...


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

........and then if the big boys baulk at non refundable deposits up front and leave it till very late to register, charge double or treble for late vendor registrations.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This whole Nexus thing has a lot to do with display. 
It sets up the "nexus", or "physical presence" necessary to force you into a taxation situation with the 38 states so far inNexus. 

Make sure you read my earlier posts about Nexus and Teamsters. 

Now, if you didn't see them, doesn't mean they didn't drag the stuff upstairs from the loading dock. 

My understanding is it was both, and either, causing issues, and they did NOT get deposits back. 

And I was VERY careful NOT to mention dealers by name.
VERY careful.

You might consider the same.
EVEN if the dealers tell you something, human nature being what it is, what they tell you or me is probably true, but NOT what they would say officially for PC reasons or even legal reasons.

That is why I won't quote them unless they want to be quoted.

Also, the "disclosure" is given out in the forms from the Convention Center.
EVERY one I have shown at has had this Union data, but usually the convention organizers arrange the suspension of said fees since we're just toy train nutz.

Since I did not show here, I have not seen those forms, so I don't know.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Through helping a friend set up his tables of smaller scale trains at shows and looking at the logistics of the show circuit. More than one show we used to attend has literly killed itself thru raising table prices to levels that the larger "power" dealers refused to pay. With the loss of the big guys which were the anchors of the show and filling those spaces with quickly thrown together floor train layouts really killed the quality of the show and within a year or two the show was all but worthless to attend from both a sales and a buying standpoint. Tax laws are hear to stay, not a whole lot we can do but vote out the folks in office that wrote them and hope the new ones can undo them. But the centers that are unfortuanly requiring "union" workings to load and unload are shooting themselves in the foot. There is not enough profit margin in trains of any scale to cover that cost, along with travel and lodging expenses. With the costs of fuel, food and hotels all going up, there is little left to make it worth ones time to do the show, more could be made thru updating their website and local and other online advertising. Unless things change soon, we may soon see the end of the large convetions we once enjoyed. I hope it doesnt come to this as one day I hope to attend one of the large scale convetions. This is on my familys "to do" list one day. I have noticed with the economy struggling along, many items have been delayed or canceld and not much new has been announced for the coming holiday season. Little to nothing new from Bachmann in On30 at the NMRA convention, just HO and N scale mostly. Havent really seen any big news from USA or Aristo either. Dave Watts said he thinks we will see more from LGB next year as Marklin is still working thru legal issues with the recievership that will allow them to get more items back in production. Unfortunatly, we will probably never know the exact detals from USA, Aristo or the others, but I think we know the main issues at heart here. Hoping for better times to return. Mike and Michele T


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## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

I have been putting on shows for four years now. The one thing I know for sure is that I don't have it all figured out yet. I have made many mistakes and they have cost me money. I have also learned very valuable information 
and built a foundation for the shows and friendships that will last for years. I have also known first hand a lot of the problems that PSGRS had and how they tried to solve them. The Exhibition Hall Chair was beat up every day for all of the hassles 
that happened. I know some how Carol feels and I feel sorry for her. This was and is a thankless job. 
I still had a good time and it was worth the trip. 

Regarding the nexus and Kansas. Sales tax is now around 9% in Overland Park, Ks and will remain that through out the show. A week prior to the convention, I will send a list of the vendors to the state and they will have me give the vendors a one page sales tax paper for them to fill out and mail in their sales tax. It that simple. They only ask I give them a list of the vendors that came and their contact information. Done Deal. 

Here are a few facts I can tell you about the 2011 NGRC in KC. 
NO Unions are at the hall. 
There is over 73,000 Sq ft of exhibition Hall with around 250 booths. Over half have been rented with a deposit paid. All of the manufacturers have their booths reserved. 
I have spoken with G Scalers from coast to coast and many are excited about coming. They're excite to attend a conventin in a city that has never held a National Convention. 
Free parking at all hotels and the exhibition hall 
hotels with rates ranging from $51.00 and up within 2 miles of the hall with free shuttle bus service to and from the hall 
show hotel is the Hyatt Place at 99.00/ night. There are over 1000 rooms within 2 miles of the show. 
Vendor Hall will be open Wednesday evening, at least 4 hours/ day on Thursday and Friday and all day on Saturday. 
Bubba ( Madstang) is in charge of the Model Contest. I expect over 3000.00 in prize money to be given out. 
Marty Cozad is in charge of Clinics. 
Module layouts have inquired about coming from Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Georgia, and Kansas. We are trying to find room for all of them. 
I have made arrangements with a shopping mall to lay over 2500 ft of track inside the concourse of the mall and break the 
worlds record for the longest train. (it needs to be over 1300 ft long) Ray Manley is in charge of this. 
In conjunction with the Worlds longest train, we will invite all of the media to come and witness this event. 

It has become more and more apparent that these conventions or trains shows can't become a success without people attending and more importantly spreading the word to others that this event is happening. 
I need everyone's help to talk up any train event to get more people to get interested in model trains. 

Facebook, Twiiter, and Utube are free; we'll utilize these as much as possible. 

I plan monthly newsletters for the convention. Communication is critical. 

I want to talk vendors and manufacturers into advertising show specials to pull more people into the events. 

Everyone of us has a personal interest in making these things a success. Let's all work together for the hobby. If we're not careful, we're going to lose all Large scale shows, conventions included. 

David


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You have convinced me, I'm going next year!!! 

Sounds great! 

Greg


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## curlyp (Sep 4, 2009)

I just googled the convention center in Overland Park, The home of next years convention. They are a NON UNION facility. Here is the URL for the info "http://www.opconventioncenter.com/uploadedFiles/52_OPCC-brochure-FINAL.pdf"
So at least the vendors can save those crazy fees

Paul Deis


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Huuuuuuuuum The show for Kansas City shows in Missouri not KS. Yes there is a KCKS and KCMO so which is it. Ether way I know I will be there. The vendors have far less miles to travel to this show. With all the new Items coming AC and USAT should be present. Hopefully most of the new Items will be here. There are a lot of neat garden RRs to visit also it is a great place to photograph the real thing. Lots of trains running right through town on the new Elevated joint trackage segment. I do hope a lot of you folks can make itI think you will enjoy your trip. I lived 5 years in this area and loved it.


And Greg I'm holding you to your word now that you will attend. I'll meet you at the airport. Later RJD


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## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

The convention will be held at the Overland Park International Trade Center at 6800 W 115th St, Overland Park, Kansas. This is southwest of towntown KC, KS or MO, about 15 miles away from the heart of the city. 
Website is www.optradecenter.com. 

It's the same place that HAGRS has been held at for the last 3 years. 

It;s a great facility. All on one level and will be easy in and easy out for the vendors. 

David


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like the garden RR showed it as KCMO. David can not find any mention on that site Later RJD


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok found the web for the NGRC which was just put up. Yeo going to KCKS June 21st to June 27 2011. See ya there Greg. Later RJD


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be there! First convention for me since Vegas! Looking forward to it!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Remember what I posted about one manufacturer who found a reason to cancel last time....and this time....important to grasp the concept, here. 

I talked to a friend who was part of the convention team, and he was surpriosed about the union issue, as they dealt with that first thing in their negotiations with the convention center. 

Now it makes me wonder if it was more of cost of transporting the goods from one city to this city that anything to do with bringing said goods up the stairs. 

Remember what I said about what they may tell you privately and what is for publication...that works both ways...... 

But, like I said, I'm done.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

If Greg is coming, maybe I can get him to do a clinic on, 
(the reasonableness of on-board battery RC) 

It is a very nice building. I have helped set up many times and take down vender booths. 
I would like to see the clinics in a different spot tho.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No problem, a clinic like that will only take 2 seconds... ha ha... all in jest, on board RC is great for some, not for everyone.

Seriously, a clinic on the proper disassembly and reassembly of USAT loco motor bricks, and how to improve the track and motor pickup/connections of Aristo diesels and steamers is something that many people could benefit from..

But I will be there to enjoy, not teach. I'll be posting youtube videos of these subjects soon.

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never had a problem with either USAT or AristoCraft track pick ups. 
Period.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Saturday evening after the convention doors closed at 4pm, I was carring some items down from the fifth floor elevators to the second floor parking garage, when two members of the PSGRS followed me into the elevator. Picture this, I'm wearing a "Cordless Renovations" Golf Shirt, I have an E8 under my left arm pit, one laptop strap hanging from my right shoulder and another hanging from my right forearm, I'm also carring a small cooler in my hands. We get on the elevator and I'm standing to one side, the doors close and this is what I hear, "I don't know why we have vendors here in the first place, we could have easily put on a great convention without them and made more money." Know, for most of you who know me over the years . . . I'm a pretty nice guy (6'3" 235lbs). But, I have also been known (in my ABC Sports days) to roll over anyone who gets in my way. So, at this moment I decided to do nothing, I was shocked...then when they were done speaking (right before the doors were about to opened) I cough and said at the same time "Bull-****." I also said; " if it wasn't for the vendors who started this great hobby, (RCS, Aristo, USA, Bachman, LGB) both of you would probably sitting in a nursing home somewhere counting out your med's for the next week and sucking on your thumbs." 

In previous responses in this thread I have read where MLS'ers did not like the fact that USA, Charles Ro, St. Aubins and many others either decided to backout, or pullout after a couple of days. Well, tough. This hurts us all, and it's not the fault of the vendors. Just think about, your from the east coast and you either have the ship or drive all your products to Tacoma, WA. Plus, pay for expenses for all your employees attending, meals, hotel stay, and gas. If you did not attend and your on here complaining, what"s the problem?

Dave, let's have a great show in Overland Park. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Well said Rick! 
You hit the nail on the head.


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## jlcop (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick; 
I am a member but not an officer of PSGRS and have no authority to speak for the club. I do not believe that those comments in any way represent the majority of the membership's feelings. They cetainly do not represent mine. I thanked the vendors I spoke to for coming. Your reply was accurate and appropriate. I am sorry that other members of the club could be so insensative. It was rude and you were a guest. I spoke with you several times at the convention. I appreciate you sharing your observations both at the convention and here. On behave of this PSGRS member I appologize. You should not have been treated in such a manner.

I am planning on not commenting on the convention for a little while to allow emotions to cool and the dust to clear. I have a number of questions for the club officers and commitee members about the convention. 

John


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

I want to add that the recent NGRC as far as Electric Modelworks was concerned was quite excellent. We had one of the top ten shows we have done in the last 5 years. Sure it was a risk financially as we had to go 1200 miles. We brought lots of Phoenix sound and sold out. We brought a ton of Aristo revolution and sold a bunch of it. We even had a demo Revo loco for folks to try and ran it around on the floor for a while- no track of course. Did a range check on it inside the hall and we were on the other side of the building. Brought a bunch of Airwire and sold out. Sold large numbers if smart chargers and battery packs from Cordless Renovations. Brought a bunch of our custom logs and got rid of those. Many cases of AMS coaches and rolling stock and AML rolling stock also left. We drove home far more empty that we arrived. Sure , many mistakes were made on many fronts, but the members of PSGRS were courteous, helpful, and worked hard to make a go of it. Sure , the schedule could have been better( shorter) for the vendor hall, but overall it seemed to work. Many members personally thanked us for coming. I look forward to the next one . I believe the vendors that took the trouble to be there were rewarded. 

Jonathan/Electric Modelworks


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I've never been to a large train show such as is being discussed in this thread. However, for about fifteen years, up til a year or two ago, I was a small dealer at many, MANY electronics flea markets (hamfests) in the NorthEast. Here are a few bits of information that might help explain the situation you're discussing.


Large halls, fairgrounds, etc. have been raising their rates a lot in recent years. For many groups - hams are certainly one group - attendance is falling. Whoever is organizing the show has to understand the effect of recent economic up- or down-turns, and decide what the traffic will bear. Many times, it's wise for a group to move to a smaller (less costly) venue. Many times egos get involved and the show remains at a place that's unnecessarily large and expensive, resulting in a bigger reduction in attendance than would be otherwise expected. While we little vendors might still find a smaller show to be worth the trip, often the larger dealers and/or manufacturers decide to spend their promotion budget elsewhere.


It's very common for the larger venues - convention halls, etc. - to have union agreements. These union agreements are made with the owner of the venue, not by the group putting on one of the many shows that might use that venue. It's common that the vendors who show their stuff inside the hall (large dealers, manufacturers, etc.) are required to pay union fees for loading and unloading of their merchandise while we outside flea market-types are left to our own devices. Unions have a well-established right to exist in this country. Union members, like the rest of us, have family to support, etc., so they want to get fair pay for their work. If the union and/or ownership prices the venue beyond what vendors are willing to pay, they'll learn of their mistake soon enough when vendors take their business elsewhere. In the overall scheme of things, reasonable heads will prevail and prices will be appropriate for the services/facilities provided. If the show organizer doesn't like the price, he'll find another venue. If the vendor doesn't like the cost, he won't reserve a table. If the attendee doesn't like the ticket price, he won't attend.


As a vendor or dealer or flea market seller, I'm taking a chance. I'll pay the price for one or more spaces, load up the station wagon or the semi, hire some people to help or pay a relative's kid a few bucks to go along for the fun, make reservations at a nearby motel, pay for meals, drive all night (getting to know which truck stops have tolerable coffee), grab a nap in the vehicle until six o'clock when they let us in, set up, deal with customers, pack up and hit the road to the next show. If I don't sell enough merchandise to pay for all this and fix the transmission before the next show, I probably won't be back next year. If it happens to a lot of the dealers the hall will seem empty next year, attendees will tell everyone they know what a lousy show it was, and, in a few short years, the show is but a memory.


Ya gotta pay the piper. But if ya don't like the piper, find another piper.


JackM


As for this Nexus deal - didn't we used to have an Interstate Commerce Commission which protected Interstate commerce? When did States gain the right to tax transactions that occur in other States? I suspect that eventually someone will force this issue to the Supreme Court.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks John for the nice reply, that was great to hear! Sorry for the late reply myslef, but I stopped in Sturgis (Bike Fest) to take in the festivities. I do second Jonathan's remarks even though some of the big vendors were not there, we were swamped the first two days and at times I had clients waiting patiently. Thanks to all of you who waited, and I don't even think a had time to sit down until the seminar. Even though the comments in the elevator were made, on the drive back from Tacoma I thought maybe I should have said nothing, even closed the zipper. The reason my skin was pealing that day, was from a previous "steamed" conversation that I had with LSOL.com and the rebroadcast rights of pictures taken of me and my parents at my booth. No means no, and asking before you click gets you the pic! That did not happen in this case. Well, overall after my companies name was misspelled twice in the tour booklet and on the website. My Dad was listed as my companies owner (he's the owner of the corporation, which falls under Battery Tech Central, Cordless Renovations, Specialty Engineering, & W & W Manufacturing) . . . our sales were great! The layouts were tremendous and I made alot of new friends, and reaquired an old friendship the Andy Geiger (Former Athletic Director of Ohio State). I had a great time visiting with Dave Goodson while he graciously opened is home and his layout a day before the tour to us Iowans. I always thought Dave has a gig in radio if this train thing ever goes south, what a voice and gentlemen! Thanks Dave. I also do want to thank every vendor I talked with, from Al & Keith at CVP Products to Mike and his wife at Throttle-Up, Inc., to our old friends Jonathan Bliese & his wife from EMW, Matt Drennan & Jason Sullivan from St. Aubins, Ol' Dan Hoag & Rick from Eagle Wings Iron Craft, to Fred Devine from Fred Devine and Associates, and our newest dealer Greg from Rio Grande Southern RR Hobbie., thanks and thanks for your support! 

Besides the inconveniences that may come with these conventions, I was pleased with our outcome. Even though I had disagreements with our contract, union fees, 9.63% state tax rate, misspelling errors of my companies name in the tour guide "Twice". . . after I gave away door prizes, and a $100 gift certificate . . . and poor management of scheduling between the vendors hall, tours, and seminars. Example: (Friday 8am - Noon, Oh...when the tours are going on!). I had a great time, let's do it again next year!

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## hartfordpr (May 12, 2009)

This is to clariify why Hartford Products was a no-show at Tacoma. I'm surprised the word didn't bet around as I notified the organizers well in advance. 

Unfortunately my wife, Valentina, has been diagnosed with Stage IV metastisized cancer and there was no way I would leave her alone at home the week she was starting chemotherapy. 

I don't know for sure yet, but we may have to cancel going to the Narrow Gauge Convention the first week of September. 

Bob hartford 
Hartford Proudcts, Inc.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yikes, Bob! Tell Valentina we're praying for her. 

Later, 

K


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By izzy0855 on 10 Aug 2010 05:40 AM 
Saturday evening after the convention doors closed at 4pm, I was carring some items down from the fifth floor elevators to the second floor parking garage, when two members of the PSGRS followed me into the elevator. Picture this, I'm wearing a "Cordless Renovations" Golf Shirt, I have an E8 under my left arm pit, one laptop strap hanging from my right shoulder and another hanging from my right forearm, I'm also carring a small cooler in my hands. We get on the elevator and I'm standing to one side, the doors close and this is what I hear, "I don't know why we have vendors here in the first place, we could have easily put on a great convention without them and made more money." Know, for most of you who know me over the years . . . I'm a pretty nice guy (6'3" 235lbs). But, I have also been known (in my ABC Sports days) to roll over anyone who gets in my way. So, at this moment I decided to do nothing, I was shocked...then when they were done speaking (right before the doors were about to opened) I cough and said at the same time "Bull-****." I also said; " if it wasn't for the vendors who started this great hobby, (RCS, Aristo, USA, Bachman, LGB) both of you would probably sitting in a nursing home somewhere counting out your med's for the next week and sucking on your thumbs." 

In previous responses in this thread I have read where MLS'ers did not like the fact that USA, Charles Ro, St. Aubins and many others either decided to backout, or pullout after a couple of days. Well, tough. This hurts us all, and it's not the fault of the vendors. Just think about, your from the east coast and you either have the ship or drive all your products to Tacoma, WA. Plus, pay for expenses for all your employees attending, meals, hotel stay, and gas. If you did not attend and your on here complaining, what"s the problem?

Dave, let's have a great show in Overland Park. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC. 


This was a very frustrating post to read because it reminded me of the attitude in some of our club members during the 2007 convention we hosted in Las Vegas. Some of our club members were purely focused on making money. It ticked me off enough that I devoted my time to helping members get their layouts ready for the open house period and skipped the convention at the Riviera.

With all the challenges vendors have to go thru for a convention: planning, packing, travelling, overhead costs, time away from home, unions, convention center hassles, state regulatory BS, tax garbage, the last thing they need is to deal with "attitudes"


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Bob, it was also very frustratring to write. It's unfortunate that every NGRC structure can't be the same each year, whether it's in Chicago, Tampa, New York, or Las Vegas. When I say; "Structure." That means, the number of days and hours the convention hall is opened, (ie: Thursday, Friday, & Saturday from 3pm - 9pm) then the tours can go on from Tues., thru Sunday from 7:00am - 2:30pm, and the clinics will be on Tuesday & Wednesday evenings from 3pm - 9pm. This formula works because there's no overlapping between events, and that's what happened in Tacoma, everyone was on the tours and not in the convention hall purchasing products. Thus, angry vendors! 

I had a very good and long conversation with a gentlemen who is one of the Big Three vendors, I will not mention his name. We both agreed that there's needs to be a separate committee outside of each club who represents that years convention. This committee has one chair, and 10 members that represent 10 different elements of the NGRC. For example: Let's just say, for ****'s and giggles that I'm the "Chair," then we need two members outside of the hobby, one as a lawyer and the other is an accountant. The other 8 members are people who represent the hobby in this fassion. 1 Vendor, 1 Manufacturer, 1 woman enthusiast, 1 man enthusiast, 1 club pres., 1 canadian rep., 1 trade show promoter, and 1 newbe...(AKA first generation hobbiest). Every other year the committee changes the eight additional members, but the chair, accountant and lawyer stays the same until the committee decides to change personal. The club pres., & both enthusiasts can represent that years members from their city. But the reason there needs to be a separate committee that oversea's all NGRC shows, is because currently the format or structure of each show changes from year to year, and the NGRC will give each club it's structure, venue, tour bus companies, convention hall details & layout, along with a ticket price discounts for all NGRC members who join, and will be the oversight committee for each convention. I also think what draws people any from attending the public day's is the ticket price. $10.00 a head, come on! $5.00 for adults and $3.00 for kids. If your a NGRC member, you will receive $3.00 off all conventions for 3 years until you renew. Then the proceeds from the members dues will go directly to that years convention costs, and the additional proceeds will go into an accountant that will give away a scholarship to a local community college. 

I would be more than happy to ask all the right questions and get the ball rolling, because I have a accountant / notry and lawyer on staff it will cost me less to get everything started then it be to have someone else pay for the information. I think it's a good start and the right thing to do. With your support, let's make each year's convention a success. 

Thanks, 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in the 80s and early 90s we were very active in the Denver Garden Railroad Society. I say we because my wife Nancy was also very active. We helped with, I think, 3 Denver conventions. We were on tour and now many years later I can't remember the other ways we assisted. I was the treasurer for the 94 convention before we moved to Virginia in late 93.

Each convention was more successful than the previous one. We started making a profit!! After each convention there was a lot of discussion of how to spend the earnings. One year we bought a VCR/TV set so members could show videos at meetings. We lost a couple of members over that one. In fact, as I recall we lost a few members after each convention. Either they didn't like the way we ran it or thought there were better things to do with the profits. Most if lot all of these were members who were not active in helping with the convention.


Conventions are hard on local clubs. It all depends upon the local leader and how he/she delegates the work and responsibility. 

I wasn't at the Washington convention, so I can't talk about it, but It isn't easy to pull one off without someone being upset.


Chuck N


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I will attend my 1st NGRC in Overland Park next year. It's close and from bing to HAGRS last year, I know David does a 1st class job at hosting a show! His hospitality is 2nd to none and I would even consider helping set up, sweep, clean etc. if needed to.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

I was a president of a local club that volunteered to host a national convention, we only had around 350 to attend, very good responce and great attendance, again in the center of the US bothways, Mo. This organization has a national committe, and guidelines to follow for all national conventions. Makes hosting one so much simiplier, you know up front what is expected, and they help so much as far as guiding and things that has worked and things that did not. No reinvinting the wheel by somebody else every year. They came up with the money(the organization) not our club to pay the down payment on the hotel/convention center, not our club, we had 300.00 in our account. We could not have done it without the committe. I done the exhibit hall, the National had rules I had to abide by, some not easy, but it keeps every years conventions the same, and attendees knows what to expect. On the flip side of the coin, we had alot of freedom to make our convention unique and very fun. Every National convention club had a questioneer made up by the National Committe to fill out to give to the next years hosting club. So they had a heads up on a lot of issues. I know alot of people are in disagreement with a National Club per say, most of these people are probably never going to host a National convention, and probably will not help at one.. 
I will say with out the exhibitors, the national convention would die, they are the backbone of the convention, you still need arms, legs, hands, feet, and all the other body parts to make it successful, but without a backbone, most of the body will fall apart. 
I personally had a great time and thought it was the best convention, (so far 4 NGRC) that my wife and I attended. People that complain about the vendors must have ALOT of money to spend, myself and most all others attending could have have spent 10 times more money and still would not have bought out all the vendors. Another thing that helps is my wife and I are not complainers, we always try to look on the bright side of things. The more vendors you have the more you have to select from, the more you have to spread the same amount of money with, the less each vendor makes, the more chance they won't be back. 
As a business man that has done large conventions in alot of the LARGE convention centers across the US, dealing with unions, you do not BUCK them. They will win and make your show miserable, I have always played by their rules, not liking it, when you are of their turf you play by their rules or you do not play. We have spent as much as 25,000 dollars to set up and do a show, and never sold a thing. We look at shows as planting seed today for a harvest tomorrow, our items are several thousand dollar items though, and that makes all the difference. Alot of vendors will only have successful shows because of after show sales. Alot of work and money goes into the exhibitors booth, you better hope they sell alot, because if they don't they can't come back. 
Most people that complain about a convention has never walked in the shoes of the people they are complaining about, remember I said MOST not ALL. 
Just like last year, the clinic rooms were very small for the most part, but that is what they had to deal with, most places with more room cost more, they have to pass on that cost to the attendees, then people complain about that cost of registration. 
I gave a clinic at the convention, and thought it went great, I enjoyed the oppurtunity to share, maybe the people that attended my clinic thought different. 
But the people I delt with were great to deal with. 
Most people think these clubs are making lots of money hosting these conventions, they are hoping they break even. 

My wife and I say to 2010 Convetioneers Thanks It was Great, You done a great job, and we hope your club benifits from hosting the convention. 

To many rumors and untruths are spread around and the internet has their share of them too, yes this site has some too. 
Come to the KC convention with an open mind, be alittle tollerant, and enjoy it. 
Don't believe everything you hear, about anything or anybody. Like a VIP said one time, "you can never please all the people all the time, you can only please part of the people part of the time". 
Thats my 2 cents worth 
Dennis


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## caferacer (Jul 22, 2010)

We have a party of twenty family /friends travelling from both NEW ZEALAND and AUSTRALIA to the next convention all of us first timers just hope its going to be all right ? would like to visit some railroads as well at the same time taking a month off to visit and a buying trip as well would like to learn as much as we can whilst we are their,like eveything for me in this hobby a first timer and keen as punch to support this industry caferacer


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