# Scam artist in our midst



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi All,


My intrests lie in steam engines.  They don't have to be train related...I just like steam engines.  


 A couple of years ago, I met a person on the internet who is in India and claimed to manufacture steam engines among other things.  We traded messages and I bought two samples from him wiht the intent of importing some for sale.  The two I got were nicely built and looked good.  I worked out a deal to purchase 50 engines from this person and things went south from there.  It turns out that he bought the engines from somebody else and claimed to make them himself.


After more research, I learned that these were engines designed by the late Elmer Verberg and this guy from India, Pramod Agrawal, claimed to own the rights to these designs.  By then, he had my money and I was waiting on steam engines.  During this time, he pointed me to positive messages he was receiving via the myLargescale.com forums (previous iteration to the one up now).  After stories that changed constantly, he finally shipped me some steam engines that don't work and looked horrible.  He said his contractor did a bad job on them and since his contractor wouldn't refund his money, he wouldn't refund mine or take them back.   


According to his claims, he is doing business with others from this web site and I want to warn you all to avoid this scam artist at all costs.  


He has a web site up for a business called Real-Train and the web site address is http://www.real-train.com/.  I have put up a web site to detail Pramod's misdeeds here: http://www.fordcraftsmanstudios.com/real-train/ 


I sincerely hope none of you have been burned by this guy.  I'm out $1,150 and hope I can save somebody else from taking the same kind of loss I did.  He claims to be working with somebody in the UK who designs steam engines and also claims to have a company in Australia he sells to.  If the UK guy, who he claims to have met on here, is associating his name with this scam artist, you have been warned here.  


The scam artist is still registered with this site as pramodisha. 


I'm sorry to post something so negative on this forum but I don't want anybody to be scammed like I was.  


Please feel free to message me with any questions and I will tell you whatever you need to know.


Thanks,
David


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I was wondering what happened to that fellow. I saw the initial postings here and it sounded good, then he posted photos of one of the boilers and that seemed to be the end of it... very sloppy workmanship. I felt sorry for the guy because he sounded so up-beat about the idea, but when I saw the result it revealed he was assumming we would buy just "anything" and had no idea what "quality" was. Now I feel even more sorry for you and anyone else he has scammed (whether he was intentionally scamming or not). 

Caveat Emptor!


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, I do remember this from a while back and wondered what happened? Sorry to hear about the money situation.


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

Yeah, me too.  It's not the end of the world for me but I want to make sure nobody else has the opportunity to be taken.  If somebody does an internet search on this guy in the future, they're going to see my postings far and wide and will know to stay away from this guy.


----------



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember too, and seeing samples of the work posted blew me away, it was atrocious. Thx for the heads up.


----------



## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi David, 

Sorry to hear the bad news but did you see the pictures of his boiler on here a while ago before you ordered the loco's only surely that would have put you off.


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I never got anything from him either, did get my money back though, guess I was lucky.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Care to post some pics of the steam engines you recieved "as built" so we can get a heads up in case we see similar things like them start appearing on Ebay we can avoid them? 

I also remember the pics of the boilers, wow even I could solder something together better than that


----------



## deWintonDave (Jan 5, 2008)

I knew Pramod would turn out to be bad news! I'm sure I can smell it.

Dave.


----------



## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks David for the Heads Up. This sort of thing gives everyone in the Trains Business a bad name. Thank heavens we have sites like MLS where we can share bad news as well as good news.

I think some of us on MLS did say "if it looks too good to be true then it probably is" and so it turns out. But it takes courage to admit to being fooled by these people so well done and thanks again David. 
Andrew Pullen


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2008)

Although it may appear to be so I don't think this individual is a scam artist, that is, a larcenous person with the primary intent to fraudulently separate the unwary from their money without delivering anything. What was immediately apparent to me from his very first appearance was that he genuinely had no clue as to what constitutes minimally acceptable quality in the western live steam marketplace. That alone is not a crime, however it would certainly have put me on notice that if I decided to do business with him chances are I would be greatly disappointed with the products AND without an enforcable contract (I assume) any money sent would certainly have been in limbo if not in great jeopardy. Perhaps the enticement of smooth talk, cheap goods, and a potential for resale profits tempted you to take a much greater risk than you should have? 

Is it possible that this was a scam and that you were duped by bogus samples? Yes, but this appears to be more of a is a double violation of good faith. You relied upon his good faith promise that he would deliver goods to a certain standard. His manufacturer failed to deliver on his good faith promise to deliver acceptable goods. You left yourself with the most exposure, money out, no collateral, no leverage, no enforcable contract, so you are caught in the middle. Either way the outcome is the same, the live steam community is now generally fore-warned and the Indian can kiss any western market goodbye. It is unfortunate that the lesson had to be learned at your expense.


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmm........sounds like something I would write........


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudge on 12/27/2008 8:21 AM
Although it may appear to be so I don't think this individual is a scam artist, that is, a larcenous person with the primary intent to fraudulently separate the unwary from their money without delivering anything. What was immediately apparent to me from his very first appearance was that he genuinely had no clue as to what constitutes minimally acceptable quality in the western live steam marketplace. That alone is not a crime, however it would certainly have put me on notice that if I decided to do business with him chances are I would be greatly disappointed with the products AND without an enforcable contract (I assume) any money sent would certainly have been in limbo if not in great jeopardy. Perhaps the enticement of smooth talk, cheap goods, and a potential for resale profits tempted you to take a much greater risk than you should have? 

Is it possible that this was a scam and that you were duped by bogus samples? Yes, but this appears to be more of a is a double violation of good faith. You relied upon his good faith promise that he would deliver goods to a certain standard. His manufacturer failed to deliver on his good faith promise to deliver acceptable goods. You left yourself with the most exposure, money out, no collateral, no leverage, no enforcable contract, so you are caught in the middle. Either way the outcome is the same, the live steam community is now generally fore-warned and the Indian can kiss any western market goodbye. It is unfortunate that the lesson had to be learned at your expense. 



I agree, but he could easily (easy for me to say!) redeem himself by delivering a quality product to the purchaser that started this thread. It might result in a financial loss to him to make the boilers over again, but many manufacturers have had similar problems and have to "eat the failure" and pony-up with the proper product to maintain their good name. I cannot think of any Garden Train manufacturer that has not had to do something similar! And some have had to do it more than once and they are still in business and many are often acclaimed for their great customer service.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a shame there are folks like that out there. Old saying if it sounds to good to be true then it's not. Buyer be ware. I hate to see folks getting ripped off. Sorry to here it happen to you David. Later RJD


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2008)

>>he could easily (easy for me to say!) redeem himself by delivering a quality product to the purchaser 

That's his real crime . . . being unwilling to eat a failure (at least so far) to save his market, and his punishment will be that he will lose the marketplace he most desires, which will be a far more costly decision in the long run.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The scam artist is still registered with this site as pramodisha.
While he's still registered here (his registration was transferred along with everyone else's when the new forum software went online), he has never visited the new site, and hadn't been on the archived site since August 2007.


----------



## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

Posted By Curmudge on 12/27/2008 12:04 PM
>>he could easily (easy for me to say!) redeem himself by delivering a quality product to the purchaser 

That's his real crime . . . being unwilling to eat a failure (at least so far) to save his market, 



There seems to be more to this than meets the eye.

David,

Have you returned the original 50 engines to India for a refund yet?

And if not, do you still have all of them safe, ready to return? 


David
England


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, I still have them here in the box they were shipped in.  


I spoke with Pramod about the poor condition and quality and the fact that not a single one I tested (I quit testing at about 20) would run.  This was AFTER he said he tested each one and ran them for three hours each prior to shipping.  He admitted later he did not test them but should have.   


I told him that these do not work and that there are milling errors, bubbles in the powder coating (which was a fix of his because the surfaces were all rough), etc.  He said he would go back to the company that did the work but ultimately refused any refund because the company who did the work refused to issue a refund to him.


I told him that the transaction was between me and Pramod and that whatever issue he had with the manufacturer was his problem.  He should have tested as he stated and not lied about it.  If he had done so, he would have known there was an issue earlier.  Perhaps he did...who knows.  


If he would refund these, I would be happy to send them back to me but it will cost me $150 to send them back and if he has already refused to do anything about them, it's a waste of money to ship them.


David


----------



## railgeek (Jan 15, 2008)

This sounds like the same guys that ripped off Bob's Collectables in Watervleit, MI a little over a year ago. Got into Bob for about 25,000, bank will not support Bob, although his credit has been impeckable for years. Now Bob can not get a credit line anywhere. Once again, welcome to "Global Rip-off" opps sorry, Global Economy


----------



## deWintonDave (Jan 5, 2008)

I remember now, when he turned up on this forum Pramod had said he'd already made an "Idris" and another steamer for customers. I asked for pictures of them but he said that he had forgotten to take any - which I found very strange. I cannot stop taking pictures of my creations.

Dave.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

He was fishing. Apparently, he figured out that we talk to each other here! My guess is that he has "looked in" from time to time to see if there is anybody he could snare but that he wasn't comfortable in re-listing himself. I'd be willing to bet that we will _never_ see him come on this board ever again!


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

If anyone remembers he asked Gordon Watson for copies of all the locos he built so he can reproduce them..That went over well too...


----------



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

After looking back through the archives to read posts and look at pictures of his boiler, I'm not sure his is a scam artist. This is the link to the boiler pics http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=47723&SearchTerms=pramodish 

I know my personality type. I can be impulsive, obsessive and a dream weaver of gigantic visions. And this goes double if it is something I am passionate about, like steam. 

I'd like to think pramodish got over excited, didn't do enough research or jumped the gun. What followed was an inability to keep on track. I think he tried. May not have been the best laid plan, at least he went for it. 

I'd like to think someday I'll lend my hand to the production of a 1:32 craftsman flatcar kit. If so, it'll be a ways down the road, and I'm not taking money at this point. 

And remember, when it comes to judging other, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't jump naked on the bed." Or something like that.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent
Come on, one does not dream at someone else's expense and the good name of the hobby.....if his intent was honorable he would have done a quality control check followed by a full refund!! 
No judgment necessary here just reality of a good deal of money out of pocket...


----------



## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

I can see sense in both Kent's and Charles' contributions.

It may be time to turn this thread around from a statement of a problem to a search for a solution.

If the thread stopped here, David would have lost a significant sum of money and Pramod would have lost a huge potential market. 

Can we do better than that - for example securing some or all of the money - or some or all of the engines - for David while giving Pramod a chance to deliver against his promises?

An ideal outcome would be for David and Pramod to reach agreement, not about what has happened already, but about what should happen next. They aren't there yet, and guessing their motives here may not help. 


As David still has all the engines, it may still be possible for them to come to some arrangement.

We can't broker that here, but to give some examples:
- is the cost of shipping the engines back to India an issue preventing a refund?
- could Pramod exchange the present units for new ready-tested units?
- how much would it cost to make the engines saleable in the US?
that sort of thing is for them to work out.

It seems to me that for both sides to take a rigid line results in both of them losing more than they need to, which would be sad.


David
England


----------



## joe779 (Dec 28, 2008)

Better be careful with what you say about this guy from India, your thread or posts may be deleted for not being a positive comment.


----------



## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

I know of someone else that had check valves and hand pumps made by this guy... and they _all_ did not work.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

India may be the next China, nothing but JUNK if there is no in house QC !!


----------



## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

"Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence." _- Napoleon Bonaparte_ 

Seemed applicable in this case.


----------



## deWintonDave (Jan 5, 2008)

I am wondering if he managed to get anything right.









Dave.


----------



## David Halfpenny (Sep 24, 2008)

Posted By deWintonDave on 12/29/2008 2:21 PM
I am wondering if he managed to get anything right.









Well Dave, I cannot substantiate any of the reports I've heard, but I gather he has previously successfully supplied CNC and "rapid prototype" parts at competitive prices, including (but not limited to) Gauge 1 and smaller railway items.


I am certainly concerned about what I've heard because I have placed a small order with Pramod myself. It's no big deal if it falls through, because I've not yet paid, but my best shot for getting such parts made in future is if Pramod and David can reach a settlement.


If Pramod is smart, he will be learning fast about both quality and cultural issues. If he's not learning fast, we won't be hearing from him much more.


I'm encouraged that people here have been fair minded to all parties. I liked the quote from Napoleon.


David 
England


----------



## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

The corollary to that quote is: "Never ascribe to incompetence that which can adequately be explained by laziness. "


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

I haven't heard back from Pramod in a while. Perhaps he's on vacation and hasn't seen my emails or maybe he's ignoring me. 

I also paid his wife's company to do a web site for a business that I own. They put together some images but never built the site. It was to be an informational site with no dynamic content and a few pages off of the main page. I paid in full but don't have my web site. I sent him a message yesterday telling him that I expect to either get the html and associated graphics for my web site and I'll populate it with content or a refund. I then forwarded him the email with the quote for the web site. I expect to lose my $300 for this as well. 

I do know that any rapid prototyping that he is doing is with a third party. Regardless what he may say, he is hiring contractors to do it. I have a long stream of emails where we discuss production issues and such and he seems to forget who he has told what so the story always changes. I did finally get an admission from him when he couldn't ship the messed up batch of engines when he said he would. 

It would be interesting to see what he says to you when he hears that you are aware of the bad engines he delivered to me and the non working valves mentioned earlier in this. 

I've told him that if he would refund my money or exchange these engines for working engines then I would post everywhere that he has followed through but I've heard nothing back. The silence is deafening. 

David


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Fordsteam on 12/29/2008 3:39 PM
I haven't heard back from Pramod in a while. Perhaps he's on vacation and hasn't seen my emails or maybe he's ignoring me. 

I also paid his wife's company to do a web site for a business that I own. They put together some images but never built the site. It was to be an informational site with no dynamic content and a few pages off of the main page. I paid in full but don't have my web site. I sent him a message yesterday telling him that I expect to either get the html and associated graphics for my web site and I'll populate it with content or a refund. I then forwarded him the email with the quote for the web site. I expect to lose my $300 for this as well. 

I do know that any rapid prototyping that he is doing is with a third party. Regardless what he may say, he is hiring contractors to do it. I have a long stream of emails where we discuss production issues and such and he seems to forget who he has told what so the story always changes. I did finally get an admission from him when he couldn't ship the messed up batch of engines when he said he would. 

It would be interesting to see what he says to you when he hears that you are aware of the bad engines he delivered to me and the non working valves mentioned earlier in this. 

I've told him that if he would refund my money or exchange these engines for working engines then I would post everywhere that he has followed through but I've heard nothing back. The silence is deafening. 

David


Sir, you have been HAD.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi David (FordSteam)

I would just like to say another appreciative word to you for sharing your bad experience with us on MLS. It takes real courage to tell a bunch of critical folks like the MLS’ers that you have been caught twice by this dishonest cheat. 

In my long experience I would say that 99% of people I meet in the live steam hobby are the most trustworthy, friendly, and helpful that you will ever meet in a lifetime. Sadly sometimes a person comes along who spoils the reputation of our hobby. With forums like MLS we can alert each other when these problems occur.

So a Happy New Year to you David and all who contribute their small scale live steam experiences (both good and bad) to MyLargescale! Andrew


----------



## pramodisha (Dec 30, 2008)

This reply is addressed to those who already have preconceived opinions of me, based on hearsay or other misinformation presented by others or for those with any other prejudices. 


May I will take this opportunity to totally refute all that David suggests. I hope that you are willing to hear me out.


It is with great regret that David has chosen to publicly humiliate me and to destroy any opportunity I may have had to recompense him for his loss of sales income or for us to continue with any future trading arrangements. 


His devastating and libellous accusations fail to acknowledge my attempts to correct the matter to his satisfaction. He does not want his money back, though it has been offered to him before. He still wants the engines with a further 40% discount but now just wants to hurt and damage me.


I know there will be some who suggest of my quality of character, that there is “no smoke without fire”. I wish to say, all I have ever wanted was to provide a good service and to offer the best deal I could afford, I know, in this instance I have failed and I am sorry but I am not a crook.
He knows that, and that is why he continues to ask me for more engines even after he put up his scandalous mimic website which uses features of my own website to ridicule me. It is not a benevolent warning to other, it is just malicious.


David has been ingenuous, by not acknowledging the funding constraints I have to work within or for not showing some flexibility on his part but accepting any of the potential alternative financial arrangements I have already offered. They would have provided satisfactory closure of the outstanding issues he has with me. 


In my own defence, I must state that I am not a fraudster, a thief or a scam merchant and I am deeply offended that David should write such statements on the World Wide Web. In doing so he is attacking a respected Indian name and my prospects. Unfortunately, I am a man with a young family to support, with only a modest income earned in our emerging Indian economy. 
I am unable to benefit from any protection from libel in International law, as the associated costs are well beyond my individual means. If anybody wises to query my view of the actual events I have the pertinent emails available, to corroborate what and when things have been said and offered.


Anybody only accepting David's written statements as the whole truth, may not be fully aware of the details he omits in his singular damnation of me. An opportunity to read his past correspondence, including that received only three days ago, showing what game he is playing, with my reputation as the only stake. David must see that his own action as disproportionate in consequences, which could be misconstrued as being totally unnecessary, threatening or at the very least simplest blackmail and not a reasonable way to conclude a business matter. I ask him to stop the harm he is doing to my family name and the future prospects of my family. 


I offer a 100% refund, as I have done before, but I am not able to provide replacement engines to him for reasons I need not discuss further. All the engines in his possession should be returned by the lowest cost transport option to me, as he is not now entitled to benefit from them and are not be available for sale. Acceptance of this offer is available by him for 5 days, for as every day passes, more damage is inflicted on the family name of Agrawal, as long as his malicious and acutely offensive website is active.


I will not burden this forum with anything further on this business dispute which should not have been aired in public. If I have to, I should return to this place, to publish a website address were those who would wish to obtain my account of the situation may read a true and full account of David's behaviour. May I respectfully ask others to avoid making libellous statements in this matter.


Pramod Agrawal


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Hmmmm. 

We seem to have a difference of opinion on what has occurred. 
"I offer a 100% refund, as I have done before, but I am not able to provide replacement engines to him for reasons I need not discuss further" 

Yet, he states you ignored him. 

" All the engines in his possession should be returned by the lowest cost transport option to me, as he is not now entitled to benefit from them and are not be available for sale." 

Uh, once he gives them up, he not only has nothing, but has the additional cost of shipment. 

Serious problems. 

Tell me. 
How did you run each engine for 3 hours, yet upon receipt, none of the 20 some he tested would run at all? 

Methinks thou protesteth too much.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess even more proof that Pramod is will to make things right is the website that was purchased would be up and running...Yet still no website either?? 

Pramod - How about the other guy's you make parts for here in the US how is it that all the people that dealt with you have the same issue? Happen to have seen you work on handpumps and check valves that didnt wotk either.


----------



## pramodisha (Dec 30, 2008)

Dear Curmudgeon 

If David agrees to accept the 100% refund and removes the libellous website I will pay the monies into Davids Paypal account. 
But he must return the engines, as soon as possible there after, as they are not for sale. I have nothing more to lose. All I can say is sorry. 

What follows is the email sent to me by David after he went public with is mimic website. 



Pramod, 

I would like to give you the opportunity to clear your name. If you will send me those new 50 engines then I will post everywhere that you have taken care of me and that you did the right thing. This will go a long way with the railroad and live steam people. If you do not, there is no way any of these people will ever do business with you. 
I have posted on multiple discussion groups that you have taken my money and delivered a bad product. The posting on myLargescale.com alone has received over 1,000 views in less than two days and postings through railroad and model newsgroups were sent out immediately to hundreds if not thousands of hobbyists and business owners. I have received quite a few direct messages from people regarding this. 
Several people have commented to me direction and a few publicly that you may not have had the intention of defrauding me but you did fail to deliver what you promised, you failed to test as you said you did, and you did not sent me those 50 engines as you should. 
If you do the right thing and take care of this problem and send me 50 engines then I will post publicly that you did not intend to defraud me and you took care of the issue, people will be more willing to deal with you in the future. As it is now, there's just no way they will do so. 
I'm sorry it has come to this but it was all your doing. 

David


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Pramod,

When you steal from people, people don't like that and it makes you a thief. You still sound unwilling to do the right thing and deliver as promised which makes you sound like a liar. I hate to say it but the damage is already done. You did not deliver as promised and now you want the locomotives back and he is still supposed to trust you? You never completed his order why can't you give him back the money he paid for the items he never recieved? At least that's the way it looks to me. Sorry dude.


----------



## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know either of these two characters in this evolving little play but if you are not happy with a product you return it and then get your money back. That's the way it usually works. Crying fraud before you have sent the product back doesn't really sit well with me. 

-Brian


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Altterrain, 

You're right. But it sounds like David purchased or put a deposit on 50 locomotives and only recieved a couple that were poor quality and/or did not run at all. Probably got cold feet and wanted his money back on the remainder he has never received.


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Brian- 

Reading it, AGAIN, the original poster said this: 

"After stories that changed constantly, he finally shipped me some steam engines that don't work and looked horrible. He said his contractor did a bad job on them and since his contractor wouldn't refund his money, he wouldn't refund mine or take them back. 

If he would refund these, I would be happy to send them back to me but it will cost me $150 to send them back and if he has already refused to do anything about them, it's a waste of money to ship them. 

I've told him that if he would refund my money or exchange these engines for working engines then I would post everywhere that he has followed through but I've heard nothing back. The silence is deafening. " 

Now we have the manufacturer say he will take them back, but wait! 
There are now "rules" that must be followed. 

Bottom line, one claims these locomotives are junk. 
The other wants damage control before he fixes the problem. 

No solution. 

As another posted, I would like to see photos. 

And, how do you end up with 50 live-steam locos for that amount of money? 

I certainly am glad my involvement is drawing to a close.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Never was a locomotive but a steam engine. I though he mentioned it was a small single cylinder unit.


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

True to my word, I'll send them back to Pramod and I expect a refund.  As I stated before, I would have done this on day one but he said he wouldn't refund my money because his local contractor wouldn't refund his money.  If Wal-Mart says, "no refunds...ever" you're not going to waste a trip to Wal-Mart.


I didn't get cold feet.  I paid for two samples, which were very clean and work well.  I then put up my deposit for delivery of 50 engines in 30 days.  This went VERY long and much past the point of being able to get my deposit back through PayPal so I'm already in deep.  He sent some pictures saying they were ready but only 34 of the 50 passed his quality control (can't imagine how bad the other 16 must be).  Again, I didn't get within the 30 days so on day 30, I filed a grievance with PayPal and got my money back.  He said he would ship immediately if I paid him the remainder again.  No problem there.  Less than 30 days with PayPal again and I can just take it back.  


The engines show up 2 or 3 weeks later but I'm on the road for my day job.  After a couple of weeks, I'm finally home for more than a few hours, I crack the box open, and start testing and can't find a single one that works.  By now, it's well past the 30 days so I can't get my money back and he won't do anything about it. 


I built the web site, which is based on his site.  I mirrored it and made my modifications and posted actual dates and snippets from emails.   


At any rate, I'm contacting him now to see if I get a response.  I'm asking for his mailing address and will ship the same box with the same packing materials to him tomorrow on my FedEx account.  


Sorry everybody had to see this but I was frustrated and wanted to make sure nobody else had the same problem with this guy.  Unfortunately, some guy out there has a bunch of valves that don't work.  


David


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

I know...another post from me.  Sorry.


I just scrolled up and realized that there were two posts from Pramod.  I thought the libel part was pretty good.  


At the root of libel (which is a legal requirement for a suit) is to state a falsehood.  Unfortunately, it's all true.  Kind of makes the word libel wrong.  


At any rate, I have NEVER received an offer for a refund.  I would have jumped all over it. I was offered a discount on my next order if I paid him a $2,000 deposit.   


From Pramod on 12/11/07
"We have tested the engines after powder coating as testing was very essential. For powder coating, we had to dis-assemble all engines, then do powder coating and then assemble again, so testing was essential."


I didn't get a shipment until January and I have an email where I asked for a refund dated January 31st and was told no.  


David


----------



## Fordsteam (Dec 26, 2008)

Man, I've got to quit reading.  I just read Pramod's second post completely and he actually changed the wording in my email.  Holy crap...I'm getting mad now.  Here's a copy and paste job from my send messages:


I would like to give you the opportunity to make this right and clear your name.  If you will replace the bad engines you sent me or issue a refund (I’ll gladly ship these back to you) then I will post everywhere that you have taken care of me and that you did the right thing.  This will go a long way with the railroad and live steam people.  If you do not, there is no way any of these people will ever do business with you. 




Notice I don't say anything about 50 engines?  He changed the friggin wording.  


Oh well.  I'm sending the engines anyway.  The proof's in the pudding.  


I'll post the FedEx tracking number after it has gone out.  


...the saga continues.


----------



## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Return what you do not like, get whatever money back you can and call it a day. It was a deal gone wrong that both parties lost. Blasting each other on a public forum solves nothing. * 
*Glen*


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

*Quote:
Return what you do not like, get whatever money back you can and call it a day. It was a deal gone wrong that both parties lost. Blasting each other on a public forum solves nothing. 


* 
Well said, move on...................................


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this thread has run its course. I let it stay originally because it seemed factual and, though derogatory, impersonal. The case has now been stated and the accused has responded. The door is now open for the two parties to resolve their dispute. They can do that via personal communications. It's time to lock this and move on.


----------

