# Duning notices from Garden Railways for DVD



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There was a bit of controversy when the "great layouts" DVD was sent out from Garden Railways.

(yeah yeah I know that it was not Garden Railways, but some other outfit, but it is Garden Railways / Klambake that gave them the mailing list and addresses of GR subscribers)

Well, anyway, the DVD came uninvited...

Then there was a furor about it... the year before, the notices to pay for the DVD were almost threatening... this year, GR was careful to put in the first letter with the DVD that it was your option to mail it back if you did not want it.

(like we are all idiots, of course you have no obligation to return anything unsolicited that is mailed to you)

Then, I got my first letter from the DVD company, telling me to pay or return it... no mention that I really could just tell them to pound sand... 

Well, just got the second letter today... and just as forceful about returning it..

I think I will tell them mine was defective and I need another...









Really crappy marketing, and especially since the DVD had mostly other scale layouts.

I was not going to post this, but the second letter just is wrong.

Next year, when GR does this again, we will blast the trains.com site and the Klambake people for their tact and really for their false promises about how the DVD is marketed to us.


Maybe they will learn or at least get something relating to large scale...

Rant over....


Greg


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 
Did you get the same DVD again? When I got the first one last year I thought for about 2 seconds about returning it. Never watched it, it just sat on my book case. Then the second DVD came out, like the first one unannounced, and I got all excited hoping it was a different DVD. Nope! So now I've got 2 free DVD's sitting on my bookcase... I'm wondering if some fool on Ebay will pay for my free DVD's and I can make some money out of the deal. 
I've never gotten a second notice about paying for the DVD. But I still get tons of ads from Kalmbach. 
Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, the second notice was the turning point.... you get one letter with the DVD... then another later... here is the third letter. 

Big box with the words: 

TIME TO LET US KNOW 
YOUR DECISION 

yeah, my decision is to not return it because I threw it away 2 months ago! 

Now, reading the letter, it implies that if you don't return it, you will receive MORE DVD's 

Granted, there is a smaller box in MUCH smaller type saying you don't have to return the DVD... at the very end of the letter... 

By the way, the letter is signed by Terry Thompson .... 

Not appreciating this marketing technique at all... 

Greg


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Several years ago when Terry Thompson first took over at Model Railroader he sent out DVD’s. I got one and sent it back. I continued getting notices to pay for it or send it back. I never renewed my membership in MR. Looks like he’s trying the same thing with GR now. When I got the second letter I opened it thinking it probably was a letter of apology for the way they tried to screw people. When I saw what it was I just tossed it without reading the whole thing. I didn’t ask for the DVD. I never opened the DVD. I don’t want the DVD but I threw it on a shelf in case Mr. Thompson wants to come pick it up some day. I’ll gladly give it back to him along with a piece of my mind.
Bob


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I got that bill also, never had received a dvd. I called the phone #, girl was nice and I told her I didn't want any dvd's, anyway.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a reference for you all to see regarding unsolicited merchandise received in the U.S.P.S mail.

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/...Fraud.aspx

I particularly like the 2nd to last paragraph; to wit:

"Furthermore, it is illegal for a company that sends you unordered merchandise to follow the mailing with a bill or dunning communication." 

BUT! Be mindful of the fact that some "Subscriptions" to magazines or clubs or other organizations have a clause in their "contract" that says that since you have joined, you have given them permission to send stuff to you and then to ask for (DEMAND!) payment from you.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Many years ago I tried to set it up so that my 2 renewals were due 6 months apart, March and September, with their ultimate wisdom they changed it to both on January. This year Santa renewed a tad late, gifts for others had priority and now Trains starts on March and they didn't send the two back issues as they had before..... I'm now missing Jan and Feb. 
I got a DVD Coal a while back, never opened it, got a dunning just the other day. 

I wish there was another publisher of equal content, I'd like a little more respect for my money. 
John


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

John you're dealing with big business. You're not only not going to get any respect from them because they don't even know what the word respect means. Obviously they don't teach about respect in business and marketing classes at universitys today.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, if you want the DVD I have the one I never sent back, I thought it was very very stupid what these people did.

It is unopened Jerry, if you want it bad enough I will trade DVD for Rail truck...........

Tom H


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Now, reading the letter, it implies that if you don't return it, you will receive MORE DVD's 
I thought it was a stupid marketing trick, but I noticed that you could check the box when returning it to say NO MORE DVDS. For that reason alone, I returned it!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not spending the cost of a stamp to tell them to stop. There should be a web site to do this. They'll get the message eventually. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I received the first notice after not sending in money and have not received any since.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh boy...more to look forward too...and my shredder is right next to me....oh boy.


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## chama (Jan 2, 2008)

Best way to send a message is to do nothing. No call. No returned form. Nothing. 

Keep the DVD. Watch it. If you enjoy it, do nothing. You didn't order it and need have no "guilt" over keeping it. Consider it a gift for subscribing to GR.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I did as Jerry did, just pick up the phone dialed the toll free num and told them I did not want the
dvd and to take me off there list. I also never got the DVD just the notice as Jerry did. They where nice about it also. Later RJD


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I can't recall if I ever watched the DVD - my 2-yr old granddaughter seems to have slipped it under the player or something. I got a letter this week, which I promptly tossed into the recycling bin, unopened. 

Worse than getting something unsolicited from a business is getting something unsolicited from a charity. I have tons of little address labels that various charities have sent me. Sorry, it makes no sense to send a check to each of them. To me, it makes more sense to give a more meaningful amount to one or two charities than send a check for ten bucks to everyone who asks. But the labels come in handy - I just wish they didn't always have to put puppies and stars and forests on them. Not very manly. 

The worst is when some charity sends me a solicitation with a nickel or a dime inside. They're not on my list of outfits I'll be giving to, and I'm certainly not going to waste a 45 cent stamp to return their nickel. So I open the envelope, take out the coin, and toss the paper into the aforementioned recycling bin. I feel juuuusst a bit guilty for about one second per penny. 

All this is funny to me because...I work for a non-profit and we're in the middle of our fundraising season. 

JackM 

Always remember, if you didn't ask for it, you don't have to pay for it, you don't have to send it back. And they know it!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Got my new notice yesterday. It went to the same place the old one went.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I sure hope that folks at Klambake take notice as to who is NOT responding to their offer....so they can take action to remove those folks from their mailing lists. I treated this mailing just as I treat all junk mail...it never made it into my house...went straight into the recycle bin in my shop...as does about 80% of what comes in my mail. The only good they're doing using this process...is to help fund the USPS...which is a good thing in my book.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't imagine who would come up with this business model. It has got to cost a lot of money to make and send out the DVD and the original letter was so antagonistic that I ignored it. Exactly what I did with the second letter.

People have better things to do with their time, like running trains, that they aren't going to bother taking the time to send something back that they didn't order in the first place. My guess is that the only person who made any money on this is the lawyer who is drafting all the letters, designed to scare the S==T out of us who don't know better.

Chuck


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It does cost a lot of money to produce the content of the DVD.

Then it takes mere pennies to run the machine that makes a bazillion copies, spits them into envelopes and prints an address on each one. The biggest expense PER DVD is the mailing cost and as a bulk mailer they get a bigger discount that anything you or I could get.

Not counting the production of the content, each mailed disk is chickenfeed.

Each person that pays them, has paid for a thousand that didn't.

Hounding people for money apparently works because, like any behavior; if something works, it will be repeated, and they have been doing this for years.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I like having train engraved coasters for my drinks. 

I need more coasters, but it looks like it will take years to get enough!!!!! 

It would be nice if they were uv protected so I could use these coasters outdoors when I run my trains!!


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## old john (Dec 29, 2008)

Their creation costs are nil as the have taken the old Allen Keller series which were on VHS and are putting them on DVD, Allen is no longer making his Great Model Railroad seiries so it looks like the have bought the rights to his series.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got another dunning notice this week from Great Layouts CS ... a.k.a. the people that Klambake sicced on us. 

Getting a little stronger in wording... and of course the return envelope needs postage and the 2 boxes to check on my response are either I enjoyed it and here is my money, or not I am returning it. 

Either response requires you to pay postage for an item unsolicited.. 

The letter is signed by Terry Thompson... shame on you sir for endorsing this harrassment.. you should at least make a postage paid envelope for returning it, or pay for my response to tell you to lay off. 

In a small box at the bottom of the letter, after Terry's signature, in smaller type it does indicate that I am under no obligation to participate or send it back. 

This kind of advertising and chicanery is beneath the status of the magazine. 

If the current climate continues, I will cancel my subscription, and vote with my pocketbook. 

GR / Klambake, I hope you are listening to your customers. 

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I think I've found the DVD after my granddaughter played with it. Seems she managed to insert it UNDER the tray of the DVD player. Hmmmm, I could send them the DVD player with their disc buried inside, with a note that they can take the disc out and fix the player, then send it back to me if they don't want it since they didn't ask me to send it to them in the first place.

That almost makes sense.

JackM


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it was nice of them to give me a free DVD.







Well, sort of. I toss the dunning notices, of course, but if you really want folks to subscribe to it, it has to be much better quality. 


I watched this one, and it's just VHS quality; looks terrible on my large LCD screen. 

Quality video is not enough - it also has to provide something interesting to view. For me, it just wasn't there.

Now, if it were a good video tutorial on building a locomotive out of brass using just hand tools, I might be interested.







But I suspect that would net them about five copies.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bruce Chandler on 15 Apr 2012 01:30 PM 
I think it was nice of them to give me a free DVD.







Well, sort of. I toss the dunning notices, of course, but if you really want folks to subscribe to it, it has to be much better quality. 


I watched this one, and it's just VHS quality; looks terrible on my large LCD screen. 

Quality video is not enough - it also has to provide something interesting to view. For me, it just wasn't there.

Now, if it were a good video tutorial on building a locomotive out of brass using just hand tools, I might be interested.







But I suspect that would net them about five copies.






Oh DEAR! You must not have received the DVD:

"How to Whittle a Museum quality Nuclear Powered Lve Steam Northern Locomotive from a solid bar of brass using just a Swiss Army Knife and a Car Bumper-Jack in 3 days or less."


Unfortunately, I don't think that Kalmbach employees peruse this web forum enough to notice your comments.

To improve the chances that your feelings will be recognized, you could post the following link on a couple of the Trains dot com web forums:

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/...Fraud.aspx

If they continue to send followup notices they are in violation of Federal Mail Fraud statutes.

Granted. posting such things COULD get you banned from the site, so it just kind of depends on how much it bothers you.


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 15 Apr 2012 01:53 PM 


https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/...Fraud.aspx



And that is exactly why I don't get too upset over the dunning notices. Well, except for the illegal part!







I had not seen this before: "Furthermore, it is illegal for a company that sends you unordered merchandise to follow the mailing with a bill or dunning communication." Dang...how do they get away with that?


I _*do*_ like these two choices:
[*]If you open the package and don't like what you find, you may throw it away. [*]If you open the package and like what you find, you may keep it for free. In this instance, "finders-keepers" applies unconditionally. [/list]


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's what that link said


 


Receipt of Unsolicited Merchandise


A company sends you a gift in the mail--a ball point pen, a key chain, a tie. But you didn't order it. What do you do? If you are the type of person this company is looking for, you may feel guilty about accepting the item without paying for it. Don't feel guilty! It's yours, and you are under no obligation to pay anything. 


You, the consumer, may only legally be sent two types of merchandise through the mail without your consent or agreement: 
[*]Free samples which are clearly and conspicuously marked as such. [*]Merchandise mailed by a charitable organization that is soliciting contributions. [/list] 

And in these two cases, you can consider the merchandise a gift if you wish. In all other situations, it is illegal to send merchandise to someone, unless that person has previously ordered or requested it. 


These rules are codified in Title 39, United States Code, Section 3009. That section of the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 incorporates these protections for American consumers and makes the mailing of unordered merchandise unfair methods of competition and unfair trade practices under the law.


If you do not wish to pay for unsolicited merchandise or make a donation to a charity sending such an item, you may do one of three things (in each case, by law, you have no obligation to the sender): 
[*]If you have not opened the package, you may mark it "Return to Sender," and the Postal Service will return it with no additional postage charged to you. [*]If you open the package and don't like what you find, you may throw it away. [*]If you open the package and like what you find, you may keep it for free. In this instance, "finders-keepers" applies unconditionally. [/list] 

Furthermore, it is illegal for a company that sends you unordered merchandise to follow the mailing with a bill or dunning communication. 


If you are aware of violations of the federal law prohibiting the mailing of unordered merchandise, or if you have personally had difficulty with such items--especially if you are sent statements demanding payment for the merchandise--you should contact you local postmaster or the nearest Postal Inspector.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I said this in a previous reply to this thread, but it need to be repeated just in case someone decides to go ballistic and press the point...

Some "Subscriptions" to magazines and clubs or other organizations have a clause in their "contract" that says that since you have "joined", you have given them permission to send stuff to you and then to ask for (DEMAND!) payment from you. Some have the ability to "opt out" of the clause, but don't provide much information on how to do so.

I do not have any subscriptions to a Kalmbach publication, so I don't know if there is a clause in the magazine subscription to that effect or not. But, I'd recommend that you do some research on the subject before getting too deep into litigation with them.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I just great the postal person at the mail box and just give it back to them and tell them to return to sender. So far it has worked an I do not get any other notices and if I do I just tell them it was returned to sender. Later RJD


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine came with a prepaid envelope to return it. I just checked the no more dvds box and left the envelope in the mailbox for my mailman to collect . How hard can that be?


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a collection agency harrass me to collect $10 on a medical bill - in error. They said I wouldn't have to pay it if I could prove I didn't owe it, which I could. I informed them that by asking for proof, that they had agreed to the terms of my consulting contract, $50 per hour, 4 hours minimum. They were extremely unhappy. But, as I pointed out, I have charged people that exact amount per hour to testify in Court as an expert witness, and could prove it. 

So, I sent them a letter that they agreed to pay me the $200 if I proved I didn't owe the $10. I eventually got a letter saying that I did not, in fact, owe them $10 and thanks for my time. 

Remember, your time is valuable. So, if Kalmbach wants the DVDs back, a certain amount of fair compensation is certainly reasonable... 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Victor, if you read the thread from the beginning, I believe only the first time it comes with a prepaid envelope... all subsequent communications have asked for me to not only pay the postage, but only came with a small envelope not suitable to return the DVD. (long after the original envelope was gone).

Read from the beginning before commenting like I'm not doing something simple would be nice.

And what does irk me is that Klambake is doing something illegal sending these notices. 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I did read from the beginning, theres nothing I saw in the OP that indicates whether the dvd was returned or tossed. If it was returned and you still got the notice then I can see why your frustrated, but if its been tossed, your going to continue to get the notices because the marketing firms computers are still expecting payment, its all automatic, legally all you have to do is toss the the notices as its an unsolicited gift according to the post office, according to the marketing company you still owe them (even if you dont), and they are going to bet that you are unfamiliar enough with the legal aspects to scare a payment out of you, its unethical as ****, but perfectly legal. This is why I returned them right away, its simply the easiest way to deal with these things. Thats why I returned mine, I got some of these dvds a few years ago from MR and after the last dvd got sent back with the cancel notice I too got "pay up or else" notices, like 4 of them, which I dilligently feed to the shredder, eventually they stopped and I never had any problems with them after for years until this last mailing.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 15 Apr 2012 08:41 PM 
I did read from the beginning, theres nothing I saw in the OP that indicates whether the dvd was returned or tossed. If it was returned and you still got the notice then I can see why your frustrated, but if its been tossed, your going to continue to get the notices because the marketing firms computers are still expecting payment, its all automatic, legally all you have to do is toss the the notices as its an unsolicited gift according to the post office, according to the marketing company you still owe them (even if you dont), and they are going to bet that you are unfamiliar enough with the legal aspects to scare a payment out of you, its unethical as ****, but perfectly legal. This is why I returned them right away, its simply the easiest way to deal with these things. Thats why I returned mine, I got some of these dvds a few years ago from MR and after the last dvd got sent back with the cancel notice I too got "pay up or else" notices, like 4 of them, which I dilligently feed to the shredder, eventually they stopped and I never had any problems with them after for years until this last mailing. 

Do a Google search for the definition of "Fraud" and "Defraud"!

It is not just "unethical" it is "FRAUD" by the legal definition...They are attempting to obtain financial gain by deceptive means... "bet that you are unfamiliar enough with the legal aspects to scare a payment out of you".

They can send stuff all they want to anybody they want, but when they say the recepiant owes money for the item, they have committed a CRIME, it is both Criminal act and a Civil Law violation.

The act of asking for payment for unsolicited items sent via the U.S. Mail is ILLEGAL. "Mail Fraud".

You and I are educated enough to know to just ignore the "duning notices", but there are enough other people that do not and are "scared into paying", that the perpetrators of the fraud continue to do it.

"Behavior that produces the desired result will be repeated!" (The psychologist's reason why children throw tantrums... They desire attention, even if it is a spanking!) The way to put a stop to it, is to produce a result that they don't want.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

qed... I am purposefully not communicating with them in hopes that they will find the current method is flawed and try something else, like asking people first before sending, and only sending when requested. 

The mailing of the dunning notices must have some cost... 

And Victor, now 3 people have told you the dunning notices are illegal... 

Greg 


p.s. I said to read the entire thread... and you did not... again...

3rd post in the thread, 2nd post by me:

"yeah, my decision is to not return it because I threw it away 2 months ago!"

I hope this is beyond clear....


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Several years ago when Terry first took over at MR I got a DVD that I didn't want, sent it back and continued to get notices to pay up or send it back. I wrote them and said I did sent it back. I continued to get more notices. This time I figured "why bother?"
And yep, I got another notice in the past few days. The DVD is still around here somewhere, unopened. They can come and get it anytime they want. 
Bob


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

OK guys I get your point.


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Did the DVD and the dunning notices come directly from Kalmbach, or from some other company with which Kalmbach has a co-marketing arrangement? If the former, than it MAY be permissible for them to mail you stuff unsolicited, but you would still be under no obligation to pay for it. If the latter, I think that even mailing the thing might be illegal as you would be under no obligation nor have any type of arrangement with a business partner of Kalmbach. 

Even though I have been a subscriber to MR for nearly 50 years (my God, I am an old fart!), I never got one of the aforementioned DVDs, so I can't comment on it. However, if one of you were to mail one of these DVDs, the envelope it came in, along with the dunning letter AND a copy of this entire thread to your local branch of the Postal Inspectors Service, I can guarantee that they WILL investigate the situation. In the process, they will also scare the ever-lovin' S&*^ out of Kalmbach. 

I've used the PIS on several people over the years - they are like crazed junk yard dogs. Don't sick them on anyone that you really, really, really don't want to mess with, i.e., make sure your target truly deserves the hassle of their life. Six years ago I got rear ended by a used car dealer after he ran a red light. I was fine and there was only minimal damage to my Durango. A cop just happened to be sitting there, so he wrote the guy a ticket but let us settle the damage issue between us. I basically had to replace the bolt on class III hitch and the electrical connections. So I sent him a bill for $300 - $225 for materials and $75 for my time (about 90 minutes) to install it all. He sent my a business check on his dealership's bank account - which promptly bounced. I sent him a certified letter, which was signed for but ignored. I called him and he laughed and told me to pound salt. I had my wife listen to the conversation - I had her draw up a statement, which one of my neighbors notarized. I sent all the documentation to the Boston office of the PIS. Long story short - they jammed him up for FIVE years in a Federal pen somewhere in PA. I still smile every time I think of the a--hole. Do I fell guilty - not in the least. He deserved what he got - besides, isn't it everybody's dream to screw over a used car salesman? 

Again, make sure you're not using an atom bomb to swat a fly, the PIS are merciless. 

Brian 
Taxachusetts


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

"Even though I have been a subscriber to MR for nearly 50 years " 

Did your first issue come by carrier pigeon or pony express? 

I agree, the PIS are way serious. I drove truck for a US mail contractor, and a very special DOT inspector decided to break the seal on one of our mail loads. He was taken away in cuffs... 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As stated a number of times, it's another company that makes the DVD, but the Kalmbach and GR logos are all over the letter, and the letter is signed by the head of Kalmbach. 

Clearly this company got my address from them. 

There's no law against anyone giving you a gift, but they cannot keep asking for money. 

I would not be as upset if the Kalmbach people had not endorsed it, or if they had not PROMISED not to send dunning notices in the GR forum... this subject was brought up to them, that many people might not know their rights and feel obligated. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Last week I received my fourth contact regarding the DVD. The original DVD and three of the dunning notices. I think that next communication I get for Kalmbach will be returned to sender with a big refused notice on the front. If it happens to be a renewal notice for GR, so be it. I'll get 20 more before my subscription really runs out. That way they'll get to pay postage both ways!!!


Chuck


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## Monkeycircus (Aug 9, 2012)

I would have hired the exact same collection agency to collect the $200 they owed you. At least they would have saved money on postage.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the best things I've ever done, is put the shredder right next to where I open my mail.


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