# Dirty track vs battery vs. Capacitors



## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

I once thought that the advent of stand by power sources for decoders would eliminate the problem of dirty track in some places. That apparently has not proven to be the case, from what I've read. My question is: Wouldn't it make more sense to feature an external < battery> power source rather than capacitors? complete with charging circuit? This would mean that you could use aluminum rail or brass rail instead of stainless steel outside, and it wouldn't have to be spotlessly clean, just clean enough to keep the battery charged. 

Just musing.
Tommy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Tommy, you'd still need clean rails throughout, to transmit signals to your loco's. Unless you're describing wireless DCC, in which case you'd be using batteries, I think?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where you're heading....
?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's been tried, but it's a very tight equation, basically you need to have the RR powered 24 hours a day and run the system at 24 volts, that's the only way for a trickle charge to keep up with running and loss, add sound, lights and smoke and you are way behind....
Straight battery is much more KISS .... Keep It Simple Studly..


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Battery comment in DCC forum? Not right. Oh the complaining would be if DCC was suggested in battery forum.

Straight battery cannot handle the devices you mentioned John, not including smoke for sure.

Clearly he is track power.

If you want to run track power, then you will need to remove oxidation on a regular basis, and aluminum takes the most effort, but it has been done. If you want maintenance free, then it will cost you more. Funny how it works, the cheapest rail is the most work, and as you pay more for track, the maintenance goes down.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There have been various schemes to charge batteries via the track pretty much from the earliest days of folks using battery power. I don't know of any that have proven to be worth the effort, and most fell well short of being deemed remotely practical. There was a lengthy discussion on that topic here as recently as a few months ago. 

That having been said, if dirty track is a concern but you don't want to commit to going completely off track power, you may want to look at the Lenz Gold Maxi decoder. It's designed for battery back-up. It has the ability to get the DCC commands through inductance, so even if your track is really dirty, you can still actually control the train when there's no direct electrical conductivity between wheels and rails. I don't know if this is unique to the Lenz system, but I've seen a demonstration of it and it's pretty slick. Stan Ames would be the guy to talk to about that. He's on here periodically. 

Personally, I'm not a fan of such "hybrid" systems. I think you waste time and money trying to serve two masters. If you're going to commit to running track power, just bite the bullet and use the rail materials that are best suited for that. Stainless is great, but lots of folks use brass track with very little cleaning as well. Much depends on how often you run and your environment. If you're in an environment where track cleaning is going to be a chore no matter what, then consider going the other way, and just commit to cutting the wires to the track. There's costs associated with either choice. What's important is the value you get from the money you spend. What kind of work are you willing and not willing to do? Spend your money so to spend your time doing that which you enjoy and avoiding that which you do not. 

Later,

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Excuse me Greg, I didn't open the door.


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

East Broad Top said:


> There have been various schemes to charge batteries via the track pretty much from the earliest days of folks using battery power. I don't know of any that have proven to be worth the effort, and most fell well short of being deemed remotely practical. There was a lengthy discussion on that topic here as recently as a few months ago.
> 
> That having been said, if dirty track is a concern but you don't want to commit to going completely off track power, you may want to look at the Lenz Gold Maxi decoder. It's designed for battery back-up. It has the ability to get the DCC commands through inductance, so even if your track is really dirty, you can still actually control the train when there's no direct electrical conductivity between wheels and rails. I don't know if this is unique to the Lenz system, but I've seen a demonstration of it and it's pretty slick. Stan Ames would be the guy to talk to about that. He's on here periodically.
> 
> ...


Ah, what an elegant answer. This says it all, at least for me. Now I know my original assumption was correct. There's still no silver bullet. Just like solar, geothermal, all-electric vehicles etc. The energy struggle continues.
I really appreciate the tip about Lenz Maxi gold. I have an older generation Maxi Gold. I'll re-read the manual!
BTW - I am track powered, aluminum. Cleaning is a chore, but not maddening. I can't go battery power because I'm too nostalgic for the idea of connecting tracks to electricity. It was fun when I first did it, oh, about 56 years ago, and it's just as much fun today.

Thanks, everyone,
Tommy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually it's a capacitive pickup not inductive. The oxidation is an insulator, thus the wheel, the oxidation, and the rail form a capacitor.

Inductance would involve magnetic fields, which are not too common in brass and pot metal.

The issue of dirty track causing with DCC is not the issue it was 10 years ago, and many things you read are people repeating 10 year old data or do not have firsthand knowledge.

I'd suggest working with people who actually run DCC outside.

Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

What exactly is 'elegant' in a suggestion that gives up without even trying ?


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

VictorSpear said:


> What exactly is 'elegant' in a suggestion that gives up without even trying ?



I’m not sure I understand your comment. What is inelegant, in your opinion? Who is giving up without trying, in your opinion?

Regards, 
Tommy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he means that you can do perfectly fine with track powered DCC outside, and you don't need to start thinking about batteries, etc.

Question, are you RIGHT NOW running DCC outdoors, and what are your experiences?

Can you describe your track material, manufacturer, and DCC setup?

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

In his post yesterday morning he said that he is using track power with aluminum rail.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Victor's comment? I thunk he thot Kevin gave up too easy.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, as you are aware, this IS the DCC forum, so wondering if he is really running DCC, and if so what equipment, etc. as I posed.

If he's running DC only and does not need multiple loco control, and he has aluminum rail, I'd say go battery also.

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Back in the beginning he mentioned capacitors, then wondered if batteries could be used instead and Charged from track. I'm guessing the lure of cheaper track swayed his decision making and now he's trying to over come insulating oxidation.
Batteries are in the header subject.... I rarely check the forum before replying, my menu is the Active Topics listing...
Be Well,
John


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

East Broad Top said:


> There have been various schemes to charge batteries via the track pretty much from the earliest days of folks using battery power. I don't know of any that have proven to be worth the effort, and most fell well short of being deemed remotely practical. There was a lengthy discussion on that topic here as recently as a few months ago.
> 
> That having been said, if dirty track is a concern but you don't want to commit to going completely off track power, you may want to look at the Lenz Gold Maxi decoder. It's designed for battery back-up. It has the ability to get the DCC commands through inductance, so even if your track is really dirty, you can still actually control the train when there's no direct electrical conductivity between wheels and rails. I don't know if this is unique to the Lenz system, but I've seen a demonstration of it and it's pretty slick. Stan Ames would be the guy to talk to about that. He's on here periodically.
> 
> ...


Very well said.

As to the Lenz Gold Maxi decoder concept - I'm surprised that no other DCC decoder manufacturer has picked that idea up to better handle dirty track.
There is an Austrian firm that offers a similar add-on product- it basically picks up the DCC signal without a direct electrical contact to the rails and then drives any standard DCC decoder.
No idea how well this actually works.
The website is in German but I think Google will do a reasonable translation
http://pde-elektronik.at/7.html

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I noticed that there is no connection diagram on that website.

Here is the basic system concept:


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## Beddhist (Dec 17, 2013)

... and charges the batteries from the track contacts. Track contact is also needed for service mode programming and for reading CVs. There are two versions. The 'deluxe' version provides bidirectional wireless Railcom.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Yeah,

I don't really see the benefit of that idea - just posted it since I think most people in the US would not know that something like that exists.
So it's an FYI only.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, so there is an inverter to step up the batter voltage, which is a lot lower than track voltage, that works so that you can charge rapidly.

Looks like it internally works on 5 volts, also judging by the TO3 regulator. Not sure there is a smart charging system there though.

So it basically recreates the DCC signal, and it does have capacitive "sensors" to pick up the signal. You retain the track pickups to allow service mode programming.

Looks like a real solution to dirty track that is so dirty the decoder gives up, but modern decoders no longer reset the same way the original ones did, they "last longer" during power interruptions.

Wonder what the cost is, but an expensive way to get around very dirty track. 

Thanks for posting this, although judging by the large microprocessor and the TO3 regulator, was designed a while ago.

interesting....

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg,
The website layout is a bit misleading.
The top right image with the prnted circuit board and the various discrete components, the TO-3 can and the big Micro is just part of the generic heading of that page - it has nothing to do with the capacitive pickup of the DCC signal.

The basic unit for that is the board underneath "AMB1" with the TO-220 regulator and a few electrolytics. The unit to the right of that is the pickup device with the two sensors that need to be mounted on the loco 2 to 10mm above the rails.

There is also no mention of an inverter to step up the battery voltage (maybe google came up with that) - the maximum battery charging voltage is the track voltage; charging current is via a 225ma constant current source.
Maximum peak voltage is not totally clear but it seems to be 20 volts which I find surprising - I have to ask Mr. Dull about that.

The basic unit was first presented by Mr. Dull in a German G gauge forum in October of last year, so that is relatively recent.
The add-on unit (AMB2) to pick up Railcom signals was just finished about a month ago.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry, I guess we are derailing the thread, but it is indeed an alternative.

I'll not derail the thread further, but thanks again for the explanations, perhaps "inverter" is a translation of the charging system or power supply.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Sorry, I guess we are derailing the thread, but it is indeed an alternative.
> 
> perhaps "inverter" is a translation of the charging system or power supply.



We use a 6kW "inverter" to step up our 33 solar panels and turn it into a/c at the correct frequency to match the grid.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Possibly it is in a similar sense, since DCC is a frequency modulated AC square wave.

Greg


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