# Kadees on Mac70s



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

This came up on another thread so I thought I would share how I personally do it. 
I also have a hard time getting a clear close up with either of my cameras.








the long screw goes up into the frame where it can't be seen out side.
the anti-climbers on the Macs really stick out so you don't want your locos to hit bodies when backing on tighters curves.

Here shows a Kadee 789 box. Now I used to use the 789 but on tighter curves at friend s RRs it would pull the car off behind it.
My RR has 20'dia min. no problems.
so what I did was use one of the USAT tank car "shelf" couplers and make the shank alittle longer for better side to side movement.








here you can see on left how I cut and drilled the coupler to work. ONLY on the Mac I made it about 3/8" longer.

The one thing about any body mount you have to watch for is the bodys touching when backing.








note here on a 10'dia curve even the 789s will touch body to body. so they need to be set out farther.









left is 789 ,right is 830
this is why I use alot of 789s simply to keep wheel clearance and bodys from touching in my storage yard which is 10'dia because thats all the room I have.
I personally don't like cutting and weaking the 830 box corners because under heavy trains thay have broken.

Hope all this makes since??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure does Marty, will alert Ted to look at this thread. He's been remodeling his house, and I've been harassing him to get back to railroading! 

Marty, have you done the same "extender thing" with a Kadee on the Mac? Like maybe use the 830 coupler mounted in a different draft gear box? 

Ted is throwing cars off behind his Mac, he has used the 836, but rigidly mounted to the pedestal, so obviously it has limited swing side to side. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

What i have done with the kadees was to use the 836 coupler in the 789 box and wa la all is good.. will run on 10ft curves no problem. do a search on this forum i posted pictures somewere.....


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm working on 3 other projects while tring to answer some of these.
Thats good info Nick.









Top is a plastic USAT coupler in which I hand drill with a pin vise in a big vise as to NOT crack the plastic. but you need washers to make it sit flat in a 789 box . I use a 3/16" bit.

#2 is a shelf coupler which I like because it is almost impossible to uncouple. They work great on my 86' box cars and 89' TOFC.

#3 is 830 coupler which I don't think can be made to fit in a 789 box,
Here shows

I don't have another types to look at in stock at the moment.

I guess the main principles would be. 
the closer the box pivit point is to the end and the longer the shank, the better the swing.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 03/08/2009 11:13 AM
I also have a hard time getting a clear close up with either of my cameras.


Marty, if you are using a digital camera for close-ups try taking your pictures in sunlight. I have a small Nikon with macro mode. If I take pictures inside, they still turn out fuzzy.

I take mine outdoors using the largest image format possible, 5 megapixels with my current camera. Ignore the advertising that says you can get within inches in macro mode. I stay about a foot or more away and sometimes use the optical zoom, never the digital. I take several shots of each item trying to reduce the shadow as much as possible.

After downloading the images to my camera software, I pick the best and export to a file in a suitable size: 640 pixels or 320 pixels wide.










Even the small print on circuit boards will show with enough light.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Marty if you have a feature on your camera called "Digital Micro" use it for close ups...OR set your camera on Macro it is usually of 3 choices for taking pics...ie normal, infinity, or Macro.

If your camera does not offer at least Macro...you might just have to think about buying a new one that does.

Also fo taking shots of projects try to indirectly shine a light on the spot, and - your brightness on the exposure...my Canon is super for this sort of thing...but it does notfreeze frame very well.

MHO

Bubba


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Found an old picture, just need to install 836 coupler in 789 box and notch the pilot a little and cut the back of the box a little and it make for a sturdy install..


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the info. and pictures.

Nick, 


With yourSD70 MAC working on 10 foot diameter curves, is this with the SD70 coupled to other Kadee body mounts on the cars?


-Ted


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Ted,
Yup, it will couple to other kadee cars and go around 10ft dia curves. but i have only done it a few times as i usually run on much larger curves







by the way how do you like your new Mac? they run sweet dont they...


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 03/09/2009 9:34 AM
Thanks Nick. 

By itself, the SD70 runs very well and I like the loco, but I am still trying to get it to function properly when coupled to Aristo cars with their truck mount Aristo knuckle couplers. (Now I know I can change the cars to body mount Kadees, too, but with 250 or so cars, I am not going to.) 

I have found that just installing the recommended Kadee 836 or 787s does not work for my application on my layout having numerous 10 foot diameter curves. The first car either gets pushed off the curves or just uncouples. The coupler height missmatch is one big problem. 

This SD70 6 axle loco with its very clever swinging axle truck design has its overall truck pivot point offset toward the fuel tank rather than being centered or closer to the loco's pilot ends. This results in more overhang on curve tracks AT THE PILOTs where the couplers are projected too much to the out side on those curves. It's too bad USAT did not orient the truck pivot closer to the pilot ends (swap the swing axle to be near the fuel tank). By so doing it would have minimized the projected overhang (albeit with more belly overhang) - but maybe they had some other reason for doing it the way they did. 

In this regard, it's interesting to note that the comparably large Aristo's Dash 9's have their truck pivots (at the A frames) offset closer to the the pilots. For that matter, so do the U25B (and probably others) as well as the 6 axle heavyweight passenger cars. As such, I have found that the SD70's truck pivot point is located about 6 inches from the pilot ends whereas the Dash 9 is about 4 inches - so effectively minimizing the pilot overhang on curves for the Dash 9s. 

Anyway, I am slowly trying other methods to fix the problem, but have been distracted from making progress (time wise) as I have been working on my house. 

-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted: When I had my SD70 I did mount AC couplers. Yep the swing is great but i did get it to work. Takes a little tinkering to get it done. Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

This evening, I tried loosening the screws that hold the Kadee 836 and 787 coupler boxes to the SD70 mounting posts - allowing them to freely move.
This was very beneficial as the loco could pull 4 test cars around my layout without forcing the first car's lead truck off the 10 foot diameter curves - or uncoupling from it.


Since the SD70 Kadee coupler height is still somewhat higher than the Aristo truck mount knuckle coupler, I expect to encounter coupler pull apart problems when I try to pull a more significent train car load.

I plan next to try the Kadee 831 mounted to the optional USAT hook & loop post to see how it works as it incorporates a pivoting arm with centering spring.
If I end up going with the Kadee 836 / 787 free pivoting coupler box arrangement, fabricating a centering spring for them will be desirable.


BTW, I noticed the SD70 with its excessive pilot overhang (when rounding through the curved path of the Aristo wide radius turnout) will "kiss" the control stand lantern at its step area!


-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted I knocked a lot of the AC switch lights off when running the SD70. Corrected by extending the switch stand head block ties and connecting rod. to avoid this problem. Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RJ, 

Since you fixed your control stands and got its coupler issues sorted out for your layout, then why did you get rid of your SD70? 

-Ted


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well I got the 836 Kadees for my Big MAC but it says on the Kadee site that I would need to tap the screw hole and I don't have a tapping drill and have never done this procedure. If someone can explain this or a way around it I would be most greatful. Ideally I would like to install the snowplow on the front of my Big MAC without having to cut it. Can this be done and if so would it have any drawbacks? Thanks guys you are the best ^^ HUGS 

-Will


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

go to your local hardware store , show them what you need and they can sale you the right size bit for the screw, a simple tap to thread the holes and the thingy to hold the tap. i usually just use my drill very slowly tap out the threads, then back it out. 
I have maybe 3 taps all set with bits to match. once you get set up then its another step into master modeler -hood. 

I'd go take a photo of it for you but I have my speedo on and ready for bed. Its cold out.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 03/10/2009 7:31 PM
Well I got the 836 Kadees for my Big MAC but it says on the Kadee site that I would need to tap the screw hole and I don't have a tapping drill and have never done this procedure. If someone can explain this or a way around it I would be most greatful. Ideally I would like to install the snowplow on the front of my Big MAC without having to cut it. Can this be done and if so would it have any drawbacks? Thanks guys you are the best ^^ HUGS 

-Will


Dude.... HUGS WTF? we dont do hugs here!!!!!!!







JUST KIDDING BUT IF I WERE TO TRY TO HUG ONE OF MY CLUB MEMBERS, I WOULD GET KNOCKED THE F...... OUT. any way ,if you run the screw you received with your couplers into the mount before mounting the kadee you will be fine and not need a tap...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 03/10/2009 7:56 PM I'd go take a photo of it for you but I have my speedo on and ready for bed. Its cold out.


Marty,
Not something i want to picture before dinner... thank you.................. he he he


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I tried that Nick, it didn't work T_T 

-Will


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 03/10/2009 8:27 PM
I tried that Nick, it didn't work T_T 

-Will


Will,
I have 11 of them and no problems as of yet


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

You mean 836's Nick?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 03/10/2009 9:13 PM
You mean 836's Nick?


Will,
As posted above i use 836 couplers in 789 boxs on my sd -70s and it works out great. email me off line if you would like some more photos of the install..


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Sure thing Nick my addy is [email protected] and thanks a bunch. Nick are you going to the ECLSTS March 27th-28th? I'll be there ^^ 

-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So I want pix too Nick! 

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Pictures of USAT SD70 and 4-40 tap use as recommended by Kadee when installing 836 or 787 coupler boxes to the pedestal








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I had to leave the box to pedestal screw loose, allowing the box & coupler assy. (Kadee 836 rear, 787 front) to swing from side to side to work on my layout having 10 foot diameter curves when the loco was coupled to a Aristo-craft truck mount Aristo knuckle couplers - otherwise the first car's lead truck axle was forced off the curve or the couplers would pull apart.












I hope this helps.

-Ted


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Ted your install looks great butttttttttttttttt.... will you be running this engine alone? if so you will be ok but if you mu it with another engine you mat run into clearance issues between locos.by useing the 789 box it sticks out alittle more there by giving you a little more room between engines. take a look at my photo and look at how the coupler box sticks out a little more than the 836's box. if you plan to use this engine with rolling stock only you should be fine the way you have it mounted..







by the way thats a sharp looking paint scheme...*


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Nick,

Thanks for your suggestions on the Kadee 789 box use. Once I get this loco more or less sorted out, I think I'll get another (SP no. 9812) to pair it with and find out as you did.

BTW, your picture shows the front coupler (at plow end of SD70) that I take to mean to illustrate the 789 box. 
I used the longer 787 in that front location and the 836 only on the rear of the SD70. So have you found too close of a coupling (likely back to back SD70s) to be a problem with the 836 box?


-Ted


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Yup Ted the decks were close and rubbed together when on a curve, thats why i needed the 789 boxs to give a little more space. were your coupler is mounted now it will rub if you do another the same way. if you do the next one with 789 boxs you should have just enough clearance with the loco with the 836 boxs...*


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Nick,

The Kadee SD70 coupler product sheet also includes the use of mounting the 831 coupler & box assembly on the hook & loop type pedestal.
This arrangement looks like it will project out more than even using your 789 box. 
However, using the hook & loop mounting pedestal has the advantage of its swinging arm along with a centering spring but also has what I think as a disadvantage of its greater coupler vertical offset to make up for this taller pedestal. 


Since I must leave the mounting screw loose on the 831 or 787 box (likewise using your 789) to allow for the box to swing from side to side, the hook & loop pedestal mount may be the better way for me.

In this regard, what I plan to try as an interum test is use my 836 coupler placed in the 787 box mounted on the hook & loop pedestal just to see how the hook & loop pedestal and coupler projection action works out. Though this won't give the proper Kadee gauge height of the coupler to railhead, I suspect it will line up better with Aristo truck mounted knuckle couplers of the cars I have. 

- I'll see. 
-Ted


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey nick? I got the 836's and it has a huge box for the knuckles past the draft gear. Can you show some pics of your installs with the 789 boxes? The 836 alone is just too big. Also, can the plow still be used with your configuration? Thanks a bunch!

-Will


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 03/26/2009 2:51 PM
Hey nick? I got the 836's and it has a huge box for the knuckles past the draft gear. Can you show some pics of your installs with the 789 boxes? The 836 alone is just too big. Also, can the plow still be used with your configuration? Thanks a bunch!

-Will 




*Cubby, the 1st picture i posted and the one Marty posted pritty much sums it up, 836 coupler in a 789 box trim back of box slightly and notch pilot slightly and waaa laaaa it works







thats why i went this way so it would clear the plow, see photo







*


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Ted looks like you bit the bullet but sure a lot more work than if you would have stayed with the AC. However it may solve your problem with the 40 plus cars you handle. Good luck on your transition. Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RJ, 

Not so fast! 

Given the discoveries brought forth whilst trying to get the Kadees to work on the USAT SD70 with the varying coupler heights of Aristo products, I may not end up adopting them after all. 

Since my motive was to avoid coupler pull apart under load that has been my more recent experience with Aristo knuckle couplers of their recent production runs, I entertained the idea of switching to Kadees as these would physically couple to Aristo knuckle couplers - but presumably not pull apart. 

So on a selected or as need basis, I had planned to replace Aristo's with Kadees. 
Since Aristo products can vary in coupler height as measured from the rail head, (for example with Dash 9s & E8s lining up with the Kadee gauge but truck mount couplers on freight cars are about a third or half couple height lower!) the kadees won't achieve what I wanted to do. 
What makes the Aristo couplers work for such a divergent mismatch on their own products is the "chin plate" they have that prevents the couplers from riding up. 

On the USAT SD70 loco, by emulating Aristo's coupler swinging shank action as well as their articulated knuckle end when using a swinging Kadee draft gear box I could achieve comparable performance when pulling cars with Aristo truck mount couplers. 
However, the coupler height mismatch without the advantage of a "chin plate" on both Kadee & Aristo coupler types precludes what I had hoped to accomplish. With about 300 Aristo cars, I will not retrofit them with Kadees for such large quantities. 

Anyway, I have one nice USAT SD70 that I ended up with installing Kadee 787s at both ends of the loco but having somewhat different custom mounting techniques, including the use of centering springs. 
In so far as the loco is concerned, I am reasonably happy with the result - though I have yet to decide what to do with it next given the coupler height mismatch issue. For the time being it is an orphan with regards to using it with my predominantly Aristo products. 

If Aristo's knuckle couplers did not suffer from pull apart under load, I would have retrofitted the SD70 with Aristo knuckle couplers.

-Ted


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Ted try placing a small washer on the anchor of the support of the engine, before placing the coupler on it....BUT before reinstalling the screw, go to the store and get a LONGER correct size screw for the hole, to deeper seat the screw in the anchor that the coupler sits on.

BUT before screwing it into the anchor screw hole put a little lock tight..not the red but the blue, so as to be able to unscrew it when you need to...THEN screw it into the screw hole of the engines coupler anchor...just snug enough..NOT TOO TIGHT! And of course avoid collisions as it may, not sure of this one, but may be a little more susseptible to fracture, although I have not experienced this with my usage of this little trick.

Not sure of the Mac coupler mount but I have tried and used the SMALL, if you can find them washers to lower the coupler height.










Another thought on this picture the Kay-Dee gauge is matching up with the truck mounted coupler which has an upward swing to it..If you would use a BODY mounted coupler with the straight shaft you will get the lowering of the 1/3 to 1/2 you mentioned that it was missaligned with.

If you look at the pic you see the engines coupler is upward, if it was straight it would be 1/2 to 1/3 lower to the gauge and that is the lowering you would need to match up perfectly!

Solving your problem.

Here is the Kay-Dee link to the body mount that I use on ALL my applications..it is not as good a detail pic as for the 831 truck mounted but the shank on the 789 is straight instead of upward off set on the truck mounted ones.

http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page789-1789.htm

Remember that after modifying it this way what matched before will not match after this mod...but if it matches up with your Aristo stuff....who cares.

IMHO

Bubba


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Bubba for your informative response. 

I am in fact very happy with how I custom mounted the 787s to USAT SD70, and I realize various techniques to "cheat" if I decide to lower the coupler to match Aristo truck mount knuckle couplers - as for example, installing a straight shank "center set" 789 Kadee coupler in my 787 draft gear boxes - that are really the same boxes as the 789s.

But since I may want to MU the SD70 with my other Aristo locos, I would want to leave it the way I have it since its couplers will line up with Aristo locos. 
It's more a matter of deciding how I want to use the SD70 as I now have it set up the the Kadee 787s. 

-Ted


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

There's a trick to make screws self tapping.
You'll need a seperating disc in a hand tool.
Cut notches through the threads, be sure to keep the cutting edge as square as possible, looking down from the head it would be on the left side of the cut. 2 notches on either side of the screw should do it.
Screw in a couple of turns, back out and blow away any chips and repeat.

Tip; use a longer screw with the same threads for your tapping screw, easier to cut the threads and you won't need to groove the full length.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Since I got the two USAT SD70s and had to change the couplers on them (to Kadees), I documented in an article I wrote as to what I did and how it worked. 

The below picture shows the two SD70s with Kadees coupled together back to back on an 8 foot diameter curve track. I adapted Kadee 787s to a swinging box arrangement for this to work.









The article includes a list of contents at its beginning that can be "clicked on" to go to a specific area of interest.

See this rather lengthy article I wrote with a ton of pictures by clicking on its name here USAT SD70MAC experiences to see it.

It will open in a different window of your browser so it should not disrupt what you may be doing. Because of its size with all the pictures it may take some time to load depending on your network speed.

-Ted


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