# What is MTH thinking?



## N.S. Rob (Jan 2, 2008)

First of all MTH chose to go with 1/32 scale. Mike said that this was more true to scale with the track everyone was using. Okay I see that, but most prototype guys are into 1/29 do to the availability of rolling stock offered by Aristo and USA.  Second, MTH has just offered some nice flat cars with caterpillar loads. I thought these were cool until I seen the flat cars were in a fake caterpillar paint scheme as well. If MTH wants to be more true to scale, they need to offer flat cars that actually exsist. This isn't O-scale.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

yeah..I always thought it was very ironic that MTH claims they went with 1/32 because its "correct for the gauge", while 1/29 isnt. 
but then they went and made toy-trains in the O-scale "tinplate" style in that "correct" scale! 
totally negating any advantage of the "scale correctness" of 1/32. 

USA trains and Aristocraft diesels, in 1/29 scale, are MUCH more accurate scale models than MTH..even with being the "wrong gauge".. 

Then..MTH also goes and makes all the same engines that already exist in the Large scale world! 
Alco PA's, F-units,..some are unique though, like the Challenger and the GE dash-8 with the "spartan cab".. 

but from my perspective, I dont even consider MTH locomotives a viable option..because they are too small, and I cant stand the "toy train" style.. 
I will probably never buy a MTH loco...ever. unless they switch to 1/29! 

On another forum awhile back (I think it was the Bachmann forum) someone commented that MTH seems to be selling locomotives..but to who?? 
no one ever sees them! I am a member of a Garden Railroad club with 40+ members..a lot of those members have LS diesels.. 
I am not aware of ONE single club member who owns ONE single MTH diesel! not one.. 
plenty of USA trains and Aristo diesels in the club though.. 

so who is buying MTH?? 

My theory is that there are two seperate groups of Large Scalers..first, you have the garden railroaders..myself and the members of my club, 
and it seems most of the members MLS...they tend to favor 1/29. 

then..perhaps you have a second group...the Large Scalers who graduated from O-scale...perhaps these guys have indoor "tinplate" "toy-train" style layouts, with tight curves and swinging pilots in the tinplate tradition..and maybe those are the guys buying and running MTH??  They would already be familiar with MTH from the O-scale world, and if they wanted to build a O-scale style layout indoors, MTH is the natural choice..and the two groups seldom cross paths...we dont hear much about them because they arent "Garden railroaders".. 
we are in seperate model train worlds.

maybe...thats the only I was I can explain any success MTH is having..otherwise I dont understand it at all.. 

Scot


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I started with large scale because I inherited some significant amounts of LGB stuff from a relative. Then I bought some aristo stuff because it was relatively cheap and I liked the big steam. Now I have a bunch of mixed scale stuff, which is fine of course. 

But knowing what I do now, if I was starttng from scratch, I think I'd go with MTH all the way. I've gradually added sound and remote control to one of my locos, and that's gotten the total cost of a cheaper Aristo engine--even using the less expensive train engineer system--right up to what I'd have paid for an MTH Hudson, with less control thnhat the MTH systems. The MTH DCS system is great--excellent sound and smoke effects, lots of control. I like the look of their engines and rolling stock--it doesn't jump and "pop" like the 1:29 stuff does, but it looks more to scale to me, better with the track. And also frankly 1:32 is a little easier to manage--easier to store, easier to carry etc. 

Downside I suppose is the limited range of 1/32 stuff. I suppose you could argue that MTH would sell more in 1:29, and maybe so. I still think if I was starting from scratch Id just get some MTH locos with DCS and be done--no more trying to figure out Aristo's cryptic manuals, or cobbling together control/sound systems from three different manufacturers


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I know people who Aristo, USA, LGB, MTH and others. They run them all together.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's where the 1:32 guys mostly go.  http://www.accucraft.com/  Check out the new 1:32 cars in plastic. Sets of four with different numbers, a bit over $100 per car. Boxcars, reefers, and a beautiful (pricey) brass express reefer and UP and SP cabooses. The MTH is fill-in to get additional prototypes and are often re-detailed. Steam era is the main thing here although some diesels too. 

Incidently They also have a 1:29 line.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 02/10/2008 7:02 AM
yeah..I always thought it was very ironic that MTH claims they went with 1/32 because its "correct for the gauge", while 1/29 isnt. 
but then they went and made toy-trains in the O-scale "tinplate" style in that "correct" scale! 
totally negating any advantage of the "scale correctness" of 1/32.  . . and I cant stand the "toy train" style.. 

Scot
Never seen the MTH products. This is an interesting analysis--and I appreciate it. Like another poster in this thread,  I might have considered the 1:32 scale as well had I started that way and not become so heavily invested in the Aristocraft/Bachmann/LGB/USA products, but after reading your post, it is probably just as well that I never had the opportunity.  I, too, am no fan of the Lionel toy train look. 

--Ron in CC


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## spodwo (Jan 2, 2008)

I am amazed when the "toy train" statement comes out about MTH..... 

Huh?


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree Pod. A friend of mine has the MTH Challenger and it's a fine looking engine. He also has several Accucraft and plans a couple more MTH. They all look fine together. I guess it depends on how you run 'em and the way MTH often markets their products. I think most of the criticism comes from ignorance of the product and/or an over exuberant promotion of other brands. Too, MTH isn't the only one that sometimes produces rolling stock in "fantasy" paint schemes.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 02/10/2008 7:02 AM

...USA trains and Aristocraft diesels, in 1/29 scale, are MUCH more accurate scale models than MTH..even with being the "wrong gauge".. 

...but from my perspective, I dont even consider MTH locomotives a viable option..because they are too small, and I cant stand the "toy train" style.. 

...On another forum awhile back (I think it was the Bachmann forum) someone commented that MTH seems to be selling locomotives..but to who?? 
no one ever sees them! I

------

Wow!  Seems to me you're zero for three on those points!  Wrong, wrong, and wrong!  Smply amazing!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Allan W. Miller on 02/10/2008 6:11 PM
Posted By Scottychaos on 02/10/2008 7:02 AM

...USA trains and Aristocraft diesels, in 1/29 scale, are MUCH more accurate scale models than MTH..even with being the "wrong gauge".. 

...but from my perspective, I dont even consider MTH locomotives a viable option..because they are too small, and I cant stand the "toy train" style.. 

...On another forum awhile back (I think it was the Bachmann forum) someone commented that MTH seems to be selling locomotives..but to who?? 
no one ever sees them! I

------

Wow!  Seems to me you're zero for three on those points!  Wrong, wrong, and wrong!  Smply amazing!


Allan, no..actually I am still "right, right and right" apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of "opinion"..  Scot


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

For gauge one on 45 mm track to which we all use:1:32 full size (3/8th"/foot, 9.5mm/foot) which offers a more correct scale-to-gauge ratio.  So, one should actually compare MTH to other products in 1:32 such as those offered by Accucraft, Aster and Fine Arts Models to really determine the quality, details and range of their offerings.  Comparing 1:32 to 1:29 is apples to oranges.  Bottomline, it's your hobby, money and choice- if you desire to make your railroading experience through MTH so be it ,thus one would be able to answer; "what is (was) MTH thinking?"


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Hats off to MTH for going with the correct scale.


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## Esppe Pete (Jan 21, 2008)

This argument really isn't an argument.  It's US Mainline  choice that boils down to this.

1/32: You are new (last five years) to large scale. Scale fidelity is paramount. You are wealthy. Aster, Fine Scale Models and some MTH are your suppliers. If you are not that concerned about detail, like digital features, more price elastic and not invested in 1/29 MTH would prove appealing.  These buyers may be not as intigrated into the clubs and therefore their collections not as visable.

1/29:  You been around, you bought REA ( Origional Aristocraft) because you wanted Mainline equipment not LGB offerings. When USA came onto the market you were elated that the scale was being supported with 2 MFG's and detail was taken to the next level.  The competition between these two companies has provided 1/29 with the  most variety, highest detail, best prices, and most producers in large scale which now include KISS, Accucraft (AML) and LGB USA.

It can be a difficult decision if you are a detail and scale fidelity afficinato.  You must weigh the above choice.  As a 1/29er you give up true scale train to rail accuracy most noticble when looking down on trains.  As a 1/32er you sacrifice product avaliability, you pay more for high detail or you must settle for lower detail at a lower cost but gain operator features.

As the great Philosopher Jager is quoted, " You Can't always get what you wanted, But if try sometime, You might find, You get what you need."


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

very few MTH owners weather their stuff or add detail parts.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 02/10/2008 7:29 PM
Posted By Allan W. Miller on 02/10/2008 6:11 PM
Posted By Scottychaos on 02/10/2008 7:02 AM


Wow!  Seems to me you're zero for three on those points!  Wrong, wrong, and wrong!  Smply amazing!


Allan, no..actually I am still "right, right and right" apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of "opinion"..  Scot
Had I known the thread would head off in THIS direction, I never would have made a comment and become a part of it.  I don't know anything about MTH or any other 1:32 scale stock, and evidently still don't.  In any case, I am not involved in this one.  I have no irons in this fire.  Don't know, and now I don't want to know. 


--Ron in CC


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott and NS Rob,

To me, the MTH 1/32 offerings are something of an orphan child.  I have the same opinion of MTH as you two have expressed.  I have one piece of MTH stock - a Pittsburgh Steelers 40' boxcar.  It wasn't for my wife being a huge Steelers fan, I probably wouldn't have any MTH large scale trains.  I was considering the MTH Hudson at one point, but ultimately passed. The sound and control is proprietary, and its just unrealistic for me to convert 20+ locomotives to MTH DCS.  I like bells and whistles, but not if I have to buy a complete control system for just one engine.  

There is no denying that MTH's steam offerings are well detailed.  The rest of their rolling stock offerings however, are very O gauge-ish.  Certainly, those of you with the MTH rolling stock have to admit that the stock is noticeably smaller and significantly less detailed than even what Bachmann Big Haulers have.  So, on the one hand, you can buy off the shelf items that have the right scale/gauge ratio.  After that, however, all bets are off.  Its kind of a shame, since they were starting from scratch and had all the potential to enter the existing market.  Instead, they "knew better" and did the 1/32 thing.  I think they missed about 2/3 of the market but now, it would be too costly to retool for 1/29.  

Like Charles said, your trains, your ideas, your money, go for it!! 

Mark


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think they do 1/32 because they want to be accurate. I like my 1/29 equipment. Their challenger and big boy are very popular and I have to admit to admiring them myself  That hudson is pretty too. 

And then to watch John run his on their own controll. Wow! What sound. That synchronized smoke is most impressive. As a distant viewer, that is, I don't have, or expect to have any of their equipment, I have to say, "I'm impressed!"


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I cannot comment too much beign one of the Old 1:29thish gaurd and not owning any Large Scale MTH but I'd agree with Scot and others that while the Loco's are highly detailed representations the cars seem too "highrail" toyish. If I wanted Lionel knockoff's I'd have gone with O-scale. Of course this is after having made the concession to different scales and manufacturers on the wrong track etc. Yes I own some totally fantasy equipment from various manufacturers (LGB, Aristo, etc.) but it's somehtign that appeals to me and so far I've not found that I "need" to buy any MTH. That may change in the future as I do not know what it yet holds for me. 

Chas


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

You are all wrong. 45mm is for 1:20.3


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

This 1:32 vs 1:29 is very humorous.


Being as I am in the 1:32 scale camp, I have to ask, "What were they thinking?" (when companies went the 1:29 route).  You 1:29 folk say, the 1:32 is too small.  That the products lack detail.  I can have the same complaints!  That 1:29 stuff is too big and they lack detail... I have one 1:29 scale boxcar and the detail on it is just as lousy as my 1:32 scale boxcars. The grab irons are too thick, the rivets are wrong (too many, too few, too big, too small, you name it, it's wrong!) Oh no! The screw heads show, they're the wrong size, why did they paint 'em black, they should've painted them black, they should have used a Philips head instead of a slotted head, the hex head looks silly, what is that stupid plus sign on the bolt heads?


yadda yadda yadda.


I know it really gets my feckles up (*)  when I read someone saying that 1:32 is wrong (it happened to me right here in this here thread!), and I know that the same happens to the 1:29 folk when I want the "correct" scale/gauge.  You 1:29 folk have time and money invested in your trains, that is why you squirm when 1:32 vs 1:29 debate arises.  If you had started in 1:35 you would be finding that same fault with 1:32 as you do now, but the words would be that it is "too big". I squirm when I fear my time and money in 1:32 are in danger of being obsoleted because you folk try to convince others that 1:32 is a poor choice.


What was MTH thinking?  I'd hazzard a guess that it was, "There seems to be a market for 1:32 scale rolling stock because there are people talking about it, let's see if we can make money selling product to them."


Ah, to be alive in 100 years to see where this all goes.





(*) - Red Dwarf "Quarentine":
Cat - "Don't correct me. You know how much I hate being corrected, it really gets my feckles up."
Kryten - "Its Hackles you moron, it really gets your hackles up, there's no such word as feckles!!!!"
Cat - "Feckles, Heckles, Hackles, Shmeckles. There up right now, and pointing at you bud!!!"
Kryten - "Yeah?!"
Cat - "YEAH!!"


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

"Who is buying MTH"? Well, I am. To my mind, the MTH steam offerings excel in detail and fidelity to prototype, especially when compared to anything Aristo manufactures (Mallet, Pacific, Mikado). I've only been in the hobby for three years or so, but I come from a long line of HO modelers and I value fidelity to scale â€" furthermore, I've never been very interested in O Scale and have absolutely zero interest in tin plate. 

By way of an example, I'm looking at my MTH Big Boy right now (it's in my office during the winter off season) and the detail on the centipede tender is in an entirely different league from the tender on the Aristo Mallet. And don't even get me started on the Mallet's shiny wheels. Don't get me wrong - the Mallet is a cool engine and very powerful. But place one side-to-side with an MTH Big Boy or Challenger and the Mallet is the engine that appears toy like. 

(I'm not a committed diesel enthusiast, so I can't speak intelligently on MTH's offerings in that realm. But I'll trust the experts here and assume the MTH diesels are less than accurate with respect to scale.) 

Nevertheless, unless I'm going to shell out $2K or more for a USA Hudson (yum yum) or one of the various Accucraft 1/32 scale offerings (e.g., the gorgeous Allegheny), MTH is for me the only game in town for highly-detailed, standard-gauge steam.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2008)

Quote by Markoles
[The rest of their rolling stock offerings however, are very O gauge-ish.  Certainly, those of you with the MTH rolling stock have to admit that the stock is noticeably smaller and significantly less detailed than even what Bachmann Big Haulers have.]
Mark,
 il add my 2cents here. i don't know when the last time you bought MTH rolling stock but i bought 6 of there modern 4 bay hopper cars and 6 of there modern tank cars  to run with my 1/29 stuff cause i wanted different size hoppers and tank cars like the real RR's have and the details and the size of the cars are as good as usa and far better than aristocrap, and even come with  nice metal wheels........maybe you should have another look i think your missing something.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif
Nick


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 02/11/2008 12:09 PM
You are all wrong. 45mm is for 1:20.3 

Darn- Narrow Minded hobbyists, always trying to convert SG followers to a more narrow way of life on the rails....back you balsphemer; thy shall not corrupt those of mainline steam with your **** fires!  Quite of either a spell upon thee to be 1:35 or such to relative your true identity.

BTW- Dave can you get Regner catalog to us or atleast a contact?


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## spodwo (Jan 2, 2008)

MTH Rolling stock?  


Hmmmm....


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick,

As I said, I have one (1) MTH 40' Boxcar painted for the Pittsburgh Steelers.  Not trying to start a fight, only offering my opinion based on my experience.  

The 40' boxcar may well be the right length, height and width for 1/32.  What gets me are the trucks.  They look like some kind of funky roller bearing types.  On a car like that, I would have thought that friction trucks would have been more appropriate.  (Note: Stephens post shows the trucks I would have thought more appropriate to that boxcar.  Why did MTH put modern trucks on a 30s era boxcar?)  I really bought the car for the paint scheme.  Price was not bad, not great.  More than an aristo boxcar with metal wheels added and more than a USA Trains Ultimate Series boxcar with metal wheels standard and aristo couplers added.  So, I know I was really paying for the liscensing fee.  I'm good with that.  

I think Semper's probably right.  I'm disappointed that MTH chose to do 1/32 instead of 1/29.  Shrinks my purchasing potential.

POD - That's a neat looking flat car.  Still, the wheels in the trucks look 'too close' for me to think it is an accurate scale model.  Maybe it is the flanges that Horovitz always points out.  Whatever, still looks good on your line. 

I guess I better get my camera out, too.

Mark

PS - One good thing that MTH did was to make their couplers work well with aristo and LGB.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02/11/2008 1:07 PM

Darn- Narrow Minded hobbyists, always trying to convert SG followers to a more narrow way of life on the rails....back you balsphemer; thy shall not corrupt those of mainline steam with your **** fires!  Quite of either a spell upon thee to be 1:35 or such to relative your true identity.

BTW- Dave can you get Regner catalog to us or atleast a contact?


Charles, Ken Johnson is the go to guy: www.traindept.com/contactus.html ,but I know he doesn't have any catalogs in stock. The 2008 catalogs are on order.....


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## spodwo (Jan 2, 2008)

PS - One good thing that MTH did was to make their couplers work well with aristo and LGB.
 


And they have the mounts ready for Kadee couplers on their rolling stock.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2008)

Mark,


Not looking for a fight just voicing an opion Buddy...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif i think there box cars were there first release, so details may have been missed, but there newer cars are dead on with detail they look great, besides i'm a lover not a fighter!!!!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif
Nick...


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

The large MTH locos as a choice can make sense for those who have 4' - 5' radius (8'-10 diameter) curves. The MTH Big Boy can run with the 1:29 - I've seen it -- box cars and gons. Sure, wrong scale. However, the railroads don't offer apology because there are different sizes of freight cars. Sizes vary on the tankers, box cars, and others. Passenger cars, if a complete set and other 1:29 passengers are not running at the same time, will work visually. 

Maybe, I say maybe, the market for the BIg Boy and Challenger can be those who have the smaller layouts --- as to the Hudson, I have yet to see one in action on a smaller layout. 

Just a thought... 
Wendell


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By N.S. Rob on 02/10/2008 4:26 AM


First of all MTH chose to go with 1/32 scale. Mike said that this was more true to scale with the track everyone was using. Okay I see that, but most prototype guys are into 1/29 do to the availability of rolling stock offered by Aristo and USA.  Second, MTH has just offered some nice flat cars with caterpillar loads. I thought these were cool until I seen the flat cars were in a fake caterpillar paint scheme as well. If MTH wants to be more true to scale, they need to offer flat cars that actually exsist. This isn't O-scale.


What utter nonsense! O course MTH makes toys, unlike Aristocraft which sells 20' (so very true to scale) box cars in Hershey's "Bubble Yum" and "Twizzler" paint schemes, a 20' tank car for "Honey" in Teddy Bear RR livery, 40' tanak cars for Baker's Chocolate and Hershey's syrup, and reefers for Hershey's Reese's Peanut Butter cups, York Peppermint Patties, and Milk Duds.

There there are the USA Trains 1:29 scale (cough)  "authentic paint schemes" tha  tinclude reefers for Gerber's customizable for baby sex, name, birthdate, weight and length, and Universal Tractor reefers. Their are their NYC and Pennsy passenger cars that are gross approximations to the prototypes and include "Vista Domes" that never saw service on those railroads.

Funny, these toys aren't O scale either.

Mark


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Wolf of MTH announced years ago that the reason for 1:32 was to compete with Marklin..another 1:32 builder.
Let's see..MTH is currently out of stock of Big Boys, Challengers, Hudsons, F3's, boxcars, hoppers, passenger cars and according to Tony Lash MTH sold over 1,500 DCS sets last year.

Seems to me that the 1:29 camp is dying since LGB has bit the dust..all you have now is Aristo & USA.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Wouldnt it be amazing if it turned out that the main reason we never hear or meet MTH owners is that they simply have no complaints or issues that need addressing by going online or joining clubs? Could it be that MTH sells locomotives that dont require an arm full of fixes straight out of the box in order to run right?  or has a control system that works in a truely plug and play fashion? Maybe is just that the guys who bought into the MTH system just dont have any problems so we never ever hear from them on these forums, which do exist for large part on fixing all the ills associated with each new release from certain manufacturers?


Nah, couldnt be that....it just couldnt be, this is Large Scale fer crying out loud! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## Bob Small (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 02/12/2008 2:57 PM
Seems to me that the 1:29 camp is dying since LGB has bit the dust..all you have now is Aristo & USA.

Huh?
What does LGB have to do with 1:29?
I have never seen an LGB offering marked 1:29


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

It's really pretty simple: There are some folks--a good number of folks in my circle of garden railroad acquaintances --who like MTH because of what the firm has offered in terms of very nice motive power and rolling stock, along with a control system that has a lot of features. There are also a number of folks who like the 1:32 scale because that IS the correct scale for modeling U.S. standard gauge on 45mm track. 

Those who don't fall into one or both of those groups certainly have plenty of other options to choose from, so I don't know what the fuss is about. No one firm can be all things to all people, and they shouldn't even try to be. I'm partial to LGB (and no, I don't believe they ever made anything to 1:29 scale) and Marklin (1:32) products, but also have some Accucraft (1:20.3), some Aristo (1:29), sp,e Bachmann (1:20.3), some USATrains (1:29), and some Hartland (1:24) items. I don't own any MTH motive power--yet--but will have some as soon as they come out with some smaller motive power that will perform and look good on a smallish Large Scale layout. 

As I see it, no one individual or group, here or elsewhere, speaks for the hobby as a whole, nor should they presume to do so. Ditto for the contentious thread about the NMRA and standards. It's a diverse hobby with diverse interests and diverse individual goals, and there's sure nothing wrong with that because it offers something for just about everybody.


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