# Aster lovers start drooling and saving your pennies!



## turbohvn (Jan 7, 2008)

Aster enthusiasts
,
I just got word that Aster will be designing and building a Union Pacific Challenger as the next US locomotive. The plan is to build only 75 - 100 units. 

Aster Hobby USA has asked for their dealers to compile a list of potential buyers. The price has yet to be finalized but I have been told it will be in the same range as the AD 60 Garratt, meaning the price will be around $12,000 - $13,000. This will be an entirely new model, not a scaled down version of Aster's famous Big Boy. 

As an Aster dealer, I predict, and Aster historical sales will back me up, that even at this price, this model will sell out rapidly, as did the Garrett. 

Contact me or your Aster dealer to indicate interest as soon as possible. Aster USA will require a $1000 deposit for each reservation.

The hope is to have a production prototype at Diamondhead 2011.

Royce
Quisenberry Station LLC
Live Steam Models


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

Hm... might this hinder people's interest in Accucraft making a UP challenger? About a year ago they expressed interest in making a Challenger as well.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Royce, will it be the silver color or the black color? If you can buy just one engine, What will you choose, the Challenger or the next Aster 241p?


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

I understand there is an option for three different liveries including Clinchfield. This is why it is important for people to put their money where their mouths are by committing with a $1000 deposit and their choice of livery. The run of 75-100 will then be produced in the liveries ordered.
DM-K
GaugeOneLines
Ottawa


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Will be interesting to see if the fuel is alcohol/coal or butane...


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 26 Jan 2010 08:31 AM 
Will be interesting to see if the fuel is alcohol/coal or butane... 
It's ten dollar bills, Charles.









tac, who'd like one, but has not enuff kidneys left to afford one...

tac
wwww.ovgrs.org


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 26 Jan 2010 08:31 AM 
Will be interesting to see if the fuel is alcohol/coal or butane... 

I would be very surprised if it's not alcohol.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
I would think so(given Garratt and Allegheny), but one never knows given that a A & C boiler would cost more than gas (IMHO)...

Tac 

$10- only if the dollar increase in valve otherwise more like $20. Actual I was hoping for "black diamonds"


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Confirmed:
Standard black UP version , a unlettered black version, or a grey / yellow striped version. The later only to be produced with sufficient orders. A lettered Clinchfield version is not planned for production unless advance reservations are sufficient. 


Fired by alcohol/coal!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

For those who want either of the three versions of this locomotive; UP black, UP Greyhound or Unlettered Black, contact Hans or your local Aster representative to get your name on the reservation list so there can be an idea of how to divide up the liveries. 

For reference:
Union Pacific greyhound scheme:










Of course everyone is familiar with the UP steam star #3985 in black:


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Charles, my understanding is that the plan is to do the same thing as with the Garrett -- that is a alcohol/coal type boiler combination. So no butane. And as for color combinations, I think the tentative plan is to do both the black and gray UP versions with an unlettered black version that could be done up by the buyer in the Clinchfield scheme if desired. 

If folks really want this engine, it is important to call your dealer and let him know ASAP, and be prepared to be required to post a significant, non-refundable deposit to reserve your chosen model. Especially with the economy the way it is, I understand that a further part of the plan is that only enough models would be made to cover firm, paid reservations -- ALA Garrett. So people who hesitate, will lose out. 

Considering that the Allegheny came in at a kit price of $18k and the Aster Challenger has a target range of $12k-$13k, it will be a relative bargain -- especially considering that the value of the dollar against the Yen is a fraction of what it was when the Allegheny was produced. I also expect that Hans will be trying to make sure that this model has drain cocks and other improvements that have been featured in recent Aster US projects -- but there are no guarantees here, just my prediction. So desiring parties better act now or be prepared to cry in their beer! 

Good luck, 

Ross Schlabach


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross
I know that things can change due to circumstances but this model combine with the goal of: The Challenger will be by no means a scaled down design of the old Aster Big Boy, but a new development with all the modern standard appliances (drain cocks, working headlight, gauge glass blow down, removable alcohol tank etc.) makes the price "a bargain" as you stated. But then again the Garratt had a bit of price increase that was cause for some dropped orders yet it seems to have been a success!
My thoughts are if it cost a little more for a "new development with all the modern standard appliances if would be willing to chip in a bit more funding. The gamble here is that the economy will not undercut the customer and cause market force to greatly increase the cost.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Economy, price, bargains... we had deflation in Japan for years now, only food goes up. Soon they will be selling one of these Challengers for 1000yen if you buy a watermelon and give one for free if you buy two watermelons... BTW, will it negotiate R1? Zubi


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

R1 curves, no problem. Saw the boiler into three pieces and put hinges in, that will do it.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dan, I'd rather have 3 Baldwins then, plus a fourth one instead of the tender;-), Zubi


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Just wanted to share some information that I got directly from Hans in a conversation this evening. First, while Aster is considering the production of the Challenger, no final decision has yet been made as to whether to proceed or not. Hans has asked all the dealers to poll their customers to see the level of interest to determine whether to produce the engine and if so, which versions have enough interest to be included. For instance, if there was a lot of interest, ready to be backed up by non-refundable $1,000 deposits, Aster might elect to produce a Clinchfield version or a Rio Grande version, etcetera.... If enough people in the US stand ready to make the commitment of those deposits, then Hans will ask Aster Japan to see if there is also enough interest in the engine in Japan, Europe and so on to see if Aster will commit to producing the model. 

Hans says that he has set a deadline of March 2010 to decide if there is enough demand here in the US to try to push for completion of the project. In the meantime, Aster has been doing design work on the engine with a goal that if the decision is to proceed, they would have a prototype model to Hans in time for Diamondhead 2011. 

As it is currently developing and if it is in fact produced, the tentative specifications are for an alcohol/coal combination boiler like was done for the Garrett. But even here, no decision has been finalized. If the addition of coal firing causes the price target to move up too much, there is the possibility that the engine might be alcohol only -- but like everything else I've mentioned here, nothing has been cast in stone yet. Hans wants to be able to accommodate as many of the reasonable requests as possible and have as modern an implementation of the Challenger as possible -- and not just a repeat of the BB -- but features such as drain cocks are subject to negotiation. Everybody needs to also keep in mind that the market and exchange rates can play havoc with this project too by pushing prices outside of a target range that is around $12k-$13k. 

I think that Hans, the other distributors and Aster Japan have taken the only reasonable approach given the world unrest. They want to offer a quality engine, and they think that the Challenger will be a welcome and profitable project for everyone concerned, but they will not undertake the project until and unless enough potential buyers step forward and let their dealer know of their willingness to commit to purchase one -- or more -- and back that commitment up with $1k each! This approach will mean that IF Aster proceeds, they will be building enough engines to meet those committed deposits only, like the Garrett, with the likelihood that there will be no extras on spec. Of course some enterprising dealer(s) could choose to place their own orders for engines that they will buy and then have available for resale, but definitely Hans and probably Aster Japan too will not be building this engine to go into inventory. So the more engines are committed to, then the better the likelihood that the price can stay lower and the project proceed. If fewer commitments are received, then the price would likely increase or the project die entirely. 

So Hans has put the future of this project in your hands guys. 

Ross Schlabach


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

So then, if I understand what is being said, it is not too late to talk some sense into Hans, and build something that 'I' want!!!! 
Mind you, I'm not sure what that is, but it is NOT a Challenger. 
Is this what all of us reading this thread 'really' want? 
I know, I don't want to start having 100 replies of 99 different choices, so I guess that Han's has already done that, and knows what he is doing! 
I would also point out that with that tender, it can be a Northern Pacific (1" larger drivers), but with a regular trucked tender, it can not only be, as already pointed out Clinchfield, but also Delaware & Hudson and Western Pacific (also 1" larger drivers). 
I guess it's a bit of a stretch to make it look like the Baldwin built locos! 
So, I guess it may please more people than I thought. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 

I agree, this is not a locomotive I'd want, way too big and heavy for my lap. However, I'd love to be at a steam up and watch it. 

I want an Atlantic


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## Jpsgarage (Aug 9, 2008)

Why are we looking at another over $10,000 locomotive. I think that the aster brand is better served building models that more buyers can afford. The challenger will be a work of art, but not in too many roundhouses. We need to support the wants and needs of the few of us that are in live steam. These $12-$13K prices will drive out the thining herds. 

John in Palos Verdes, CA


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the factors in regards to the Challenger is that it already has a history with Aster therefore a strong rationale to build thus the price break quoted thus far. In prior conversations with Hans the cost/profit level of small engines are not the direction Aster wishes to deal with (particularly with this market do not want inventory). David's suggestion would be a great recommendation for a Pacific (I would really enjoy a CNJ, or Reading) but the price would not be that less than the Challenger. As to the supporting and growth the hobby Aster does that with the impressions their steam locomotives make with the public invoking interest in the hobby (for some it becomes something to aspire towards either a purpose or a build). The price range of steam locomotives available to hobbyist is covered by the many manufacturers therefore engines like a Ruby or a Challenger are available. 


Bottom line is as denoted by Ross in that we the hobbyists will determine the fate of the Challenger to be or not to be(vote only counts with one's wallet not wishes) I would guess that Hans knows that there are at least 75 hobbyists that will put forth the money.....otherwise it is back to the drawing board for:

PRR M1a
N&W J
C & O 611
CNJ/Reading Pacific 

and so on
As David indicated there are many, many choices out there, "100 replies of 99 different choices."


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Clinchfield locomotive:


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi guys, 

it's been awhile since I've been on this forum but I'll be one of the 75 of so who will put down my train dollars for a Challenger... I used to have a Big Boy and for some strange and stupid reason I sold it to Steve Speck....hehe So, I get to correct my error...So, build away Hans....at least I have a year and half to save..... 

Sam


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles - that doesn't look like a Clinchfield challenger to me. The front cylinders appear to be low pressure (much bigger than the rear ones) and there air pumps are on the smoke box. 
Since the Challenger is not a compound or mallet, and none of my Clinchfield challengers have the air pumps exposed (instead they have the radiator there) I don't think that is a Challenger.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John Allman on 27 Jan 2010 07:55 AM 
Charles - that doesn't look like a Clinchfield challenger to me. The front cylinders appear to be low pressure (much bigger than the rear ones) and there air pumps are on the smoke box. 
Since the Challenger is not a compound or mallet, and none of my Clinchfield challengers have the air pumps exposed (instead they have the radiator there) I don't think that is a Challenger. 
The 2-8-8-2 wheel arrangement is a give-away too!

The Clinchfield had three classes of challengers. Classes E1 and E2 were built by Alco in 1942/43 and 1947, respectively, and were similar to the D&H J class challengers. In 1947 the Clinchfield also bought six second-hand challengers from the Rio Grande, which were designated class E3. These were built by ALCO to the UP design, but had their double smokestacks replaced by single stacks on the Clinchfield. UP 3985 briefly masqueraded as Clinchfield challenger "676" (the highest-numbered E3 was 675) in 1992.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
Correct grab the wrong photo...back to the file!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking of Challengers 4-6-6-4....
Can anyone guess as to the markings on the Rio Grande


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 27 Jan 2010 08:52 AM 
Speaking of Challengers 4-6-6-4....
Can anyone guess as to the markings on the Rio Grande









Ok I'll take a stab at it based on a conversation I had a couple of years ago... more on that below.



The Challenger picture is what it looked like during the WW II period. I believe the radiating pattern on the nose of the Challenger is taken from the Japanese flag of WW II; the rising sun symbolizing the Japanese Empire. On the front of the Challenger I think it symbolized something akin to, "driving into the Japanese Empire to defeat them" (or words to that effect), as they hauled massive amounts war materials from the industrial Midwest and East to the West Coast to support the war in the Pacific. Although many different locomotives hauled war materials to the West Coast the Challenger became particularly identified with supporting the war in the Pacific. 

This is also why the Challenger holds such a particularly symbolic place with the Japanese railroading community. The Japanese hold power in very high respect. They view the powerful Challenger as one of the major reason the US won WW II against them because it enabled the US to deliver a nearly unlimited supply of war materials to the West Coast. So the Challenger represents great power for them.

The only reason I am familiar with this background is that at DH 2008 (maybe 2007(?)) I had a chance to talk 1on1 with the younger head of Aster who was there (I do not remember his name.) Although he of course was very circumspect and non-committal I nevertheless pressed him on offering the Challenger as I have a particularly keen interest in them. He then related the above story. 

As ironic as this sounds, and he agreed, it is nonetheless is why Aster believes, knows, that the Challenger will be a particularly highly sought after, high demand model with their Japanese customers. I said it seemed like a kind of popular mythology with the Japanese railroading fans but one that will pay off for Aster; he smiled broadly. I came away with the distinct impression from his body language the Challenger was definitely on Aster's list and near the top.

It's also another reason, as has been mentioned before; it might be wise to make your reservation soon. There could be a limited number coming to the US as there were with the AD60 Garratt (as I remember.)

As much as I would like a Challenger, I would have to take out a 4th or 5th mortgage to get one. Not to mention the eminent threat of a slow painful demise.



Independent of the story behind the marking on the Challenger pictured, the above story, I think, is a major reason why Aster is doing the Challenger now; high cash flow when their sales are low in the current economic climate. The Challenger, more than others, is sure to draw Yen, Euros and Dollars out of their customers pockets. 



So that's my SWAG.


;-))


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By boilingwater on 27 Jan 2010 07:41 AM 
Hi guys, 

it's been awhile since I've been on this forum but I'll be one of the 75 of so who will put down my train dollars for a Challenger... I used to have a Big Boy and for some strange and stupid reason I sold it to Steve Speck....hehe So, I get to correct my error...So, build away Hans....at least I have a year and half to save..... 

Sam 


Sam, as I type this I am looking at that beautiful Big Boy sitting under its plexi glass cover awaiting her next run. Thanks again for offering to sell her to me. After my Wife and Daughters, there is nothing else in this house that has been taken better care of. The Challenger will be a totally Awesome , Incredible engine too [/b]!!!!![/b]*!!!!!!!!!!*


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve,
Alittle secret. I called Hans yesterday ang placed an order for one.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome back, Sam
Glad to have you on MLS again!


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

John in Palos Verdes thinks that the Aster brand would be better served by building models that more people could afford. That does sound good and of course it did work for Henry Ford. But live steam trains are not something that people need as an essential part of their lives, while at the time, a new Ford really improved the life of the average guy. Aster, somewhat like Rolls Royce, is a quality brand that sells a product that not all can afford or would want. There are those that appreciate products that are built to a much higher standard and offer features and quality not found in less refined brands. Aster caters to this selective market. It does not do so to be snobbish, but it offers a high quality model to those who want and are willing to pay for the difference in quality and features. Aster does not cut quality to hit a price target. That does not mean that it ignores price but it doesn't fixate on price either. Of course, today's market and recent economic upheavals have forced Aster -- like many other companies to be more conscious of price in their decision-making. 

All this being said, Aster has produced models that are or were more affordable, and this has not always been a booming success for them. The C&S mogul was introduced in 1991 and only now is finally running out of stock. The JNR 9600 was produced in 1997 and is still available in one form from inventory. The German BR-38 and P-8 were made in 2001 and some versions are still available as is the BR-52 which came on the market in 2003. Some of these models can be had for around $4,000 which is much more affordable than the proposed Challenger, so I make the point that Aster can and does make more affordable engines. And I mustn't forget the latest Baldwin tank engine which sells for less than $3,000. 

But there is one other very important factor which enters into the equation -- regional distributors. These are the folks that Aster has selected to service the different world markets. Andrew Pullen has the English market, Mr. Trerenboldt (please excuse my spelling if it is wrong) is the European distributor, and Hans Huwyler is the North & South American distributor for Aster. But they do not just distribute Aster products. More importantly, they commission models and are expected to fund those commissions. And they don't do this as a charity, they are for-profit enterprises even though market conditions and other factors may try to turn them into paupers! Before they select an engine to commission, they do research, question their dealers, talk to their existing customer base; in short, they try to find out what models would be most appealing to their customer base. But this alone is not enough. They must also be looking for a model that will also have the notoriety or fame to appeal to Aster customers in other parts of the world because most models won't sell enough copies in one market alone to be financially successful. Early comments from Aster customers in Europe who attended the former Sensheim (sp?) convention suggest that the Challenger would be a welcome and desirable locomotive in the European market. If the Asian market and the current ongoing poll of American dealers come to the same conclusion -- and folks are willing to pony up the required deposits in sufficient numbers, then Hans -- in conjunction with Aster, may elect to produce and sell that model. 

I hope this explanation will help forum participants to understand how and why their favorite engine might not make it into production or why Aster prices are higher than other live steam brands. One thing I do want to make clear is that the production decisions are normally not made in a vacuum. So existing or prospective customers can lobby their dealers for this engine or that, but don't feel slighted if your favorite engine does not have the global appeal to make it into Aster production. And don't be surprised if it does get produced but at a much higher price than you would like. It's not personal; it's just the way this market works. 

Keep your steam up, 

Ross Schlabach


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Steve/Charles, 

Thanks for the welcome back...it has been a while. Art--wow--from Reno kit to Challenger...you have jumped deep into the pool! Steve must have you in some sort of trance down there burning coal laced incense in front of his Big Boy shrine....Perhaps Hans might use this with some effectiveness here....So, Steve we need about 75, ok, lets go with 100 steamers down for a complete review of the business case for producing a Challenger.....Open your books and your wallets and breathe deeply! 

Sam


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with comments being made about Ater and their choice for the Challenger. I really appreciate Chris' comments on the Challenger's role in history as it played out in the Pacific Theater during WW II, and am curious to see how many stay on the Island after hearing that. 

Not to change the subject too much, Doug and I broke out his Castle kit today, set up a table at the RR club and started construction. For people who have never seen an unopened kit up close, it is nothing short of amazing. The attention to detail in packaging is amazing, all parts bagged seperately and the variety of fasteners at times seem daunting to search for the one you are looking for. 

We chose to start with the tender to get an idea what we were up against. I think it was a good choice, allowing us to get an idea of the work involved and how tiny parts the parts were. Now halfway through the tender and looking forward to finishing it tomorrow, we are more confident about starting on the loco itself.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 27 Jan 2010 08:52 AM 
Speaking of Challengers 4-6-6-4....
Can anyone guess as to the markings on the Rio Grande









Charles, it looks like a circus tent to me. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam 
I appreciate your confidence but if are able to get the Challenger I would imagine it will go to the same place as the S-2. That would be in the capable hands of "JEFF" the "BUILDER" Runge. 
I have not spoken to Jeff about it yet but hope he woulld take on the build as he did the S-2


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Art, be happy to build one.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 27 Jan 2010 07:40 PM 
Posted By Charles on 27 Jan 2010 08:52 AM 
Speaking of Challengers 4-6-6-4....
Can anyone guess as to the markings on the Rio Grande









Charles, it looks like a circus tent to me. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 















Your eyes are playing tricks on you. From the blowup you can see the container. It contains a locomotive spinnaker. With a strong tailwind, the container's panels (white/black sections) explode open and the huge spinnaker opens. This pulls the Challenger even faster, just like a racing sailboat. It's where the phrase, "sailing the rails" came from.

;-o


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Right... Well, Mr Spooner thought of this much earlier. Best, Zubi 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLwJlDUnhBY


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Ah yes, I am drooling but fear I will be unable to save enough pennies.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Dave, 
Not to worry. 
Instead of that morning coffee everyday, just put $2.00 in a bank account. 
So, that's $730 a year. 
Now it would probably be in a savings account at 0.005% (or whatever the banks are offering these days) so we won't include interest! 
So, if the Challenger is $12,000, that means by 2026 you will have enough money to get one. 
However, by then as it will be one on the most sought after Aster engines, the price well probably have doubled, so it will be more like 2042 when you can actually get it! 
Oh well, not to worry, just find a friend who has one and who will let you run it for him. 
You then can have all the fun, and not the expense. 
Which bring me to the next scatterbrain suggestion. 
How about an Aster Owners Co-op. 
Everyone buys shares into multiple locos and then each year you get to play with a loco for six months and then pass it on the the next member, and then you in turn get a different one too. 
Knowing my luck I would keep getting a B-1, or a Grasshopper, or a Glaskasten, and never the Challenger!!! 
Oh well, 
Have a nice day, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

AT Starbuck", You would be lucky toget your coffee for 4.00. I quit smoking ten years ago and am rewarding myself foor being a good boy.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Kent, Hi..
Just one thing on the Castle Model[which is just lovely][ Aster supplies a decal to go along the edge of the footplate valance..1 single Orange line.this is abeast to apply,if you really want it best done with a lining pen and paint..although looking through my GWR books and photos etc.. by the 1940s very few of the Castles had this line, and post war it dissapeared altogther..the only ohoto Ive found of it was when 'Pendennis Castle " was shopped before its sale to Hammersley Iron in W Aust.. 


Gordon.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I would agree this is a very nice loco. Is it piratical to purchase? I think not. But then again there are folks that just have to have one at what ever it cost. For me it's not in my future, as I'd have to spend more to replace the track than what I would pay for the loco. Later RJD


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The two words that should not be used in this hobby are “practical” and “need”.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

RJD
That amount of track equal to the projected Challenger cost would represent one huge and/or expensive railroad! Want > practical+need (drives the economy/markets) otherwise we all would be satisfied with Brio trains or Hallmark ornaments. Similar to cars we only need basic transportation (such as the car due to be imported from India)Model T or VW bug thus no one would buy certain models when they really are not needed nor are they practical transport: the muscle car or exotic top end performance cars.

David
I really like you concept. I might just start such a service: Rent a Choo-Choo for the ultimate experience of being a locomotive engineer....


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd be up for a steam partnership for the Challenger, in "Overland"


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent
I am open to donation of coppers, send the piggy along you can make a dream come true!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Dan--isn't that how Aster markets their engines---what a practical toy that we all need.... something like that on Han's web site? 


Ok David ...$22 for a day gets you a date with the Challenger but I have to have 546 pre-orders (non-refundable checks with the date on them that I'll hold of course)before I say ok.....So, send those checks now! 

Sam


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 28 Jan 2010 03:42 PM 
Dave, 
Oh well, not to worry, just find a friend who has one and who will let you run it for him. 
You then can have all the fun, and not the expense. 
Which bring me to the next scatterbrain suggestion. 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 










Well, perhaps Art will get a kit and have Jeff build it for him. Then I will be able to see it while Steaming at Steve's.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn’t explain myself well. When I said practical and need are not words to be used in the hobby what I meant was; it’s not practical to spend $12,000 on a toy and we don’t need it. Want is the word that is used in this hobby. The fact that we want it is different and that’s why we get them. Aster is not selling these as a thing we need or we should buy it because it’s practical, they market it on the basis that we want it! 

A good example is Mercedes. I have one, when David Leech and I go to a steam-up we take my wife’s car, a Honda CRV, it holds all our “stuff”. Mercedes are marketed as a status symbol and it works. When we were at Diamondhead my wife complained to Hans that whenever David and I went to a steam-up all I left her the Mercedes, Hans immediately said “well I guess you’re making too much selling trains”. The fact is it’s the most unreliable car I have ever owned but their marketing is one of the best.


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

Being in the UK but have a liking to US locos I have some questions, I have see running Mikados,Cab Forwards,Berkshires and an Alleghany in size terms how big is the challenger? Also I like my locos to run protypical so having the right stock behind matters I so wanted the Aster S2 when it came out but alas nobody was making any heavy weghts for it to pull what did the Challenger pull coaches or freight?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By tony23 on 29 Jan 2010 01:09 AM 
Being in the UK but have a liking to US locos I have some questions, I have see running Mikados,Cab Forwards,Berkshires and an Alleghany in size terms how big is the challenger? Also I like my locos to run protypical so having the right stock behind matters I so wanted the Aster S2 when it came out but alas nobody was making any heavy weghts for it to pull what did the Challenger pull coaches or freight? 
Tony - the Challenger model would be around four inches shorter than the Big Boy. In service they pulled both passenger and freight. YouTube has over a thousand clips of the sole survivor, still running today.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
G1MRA 3641


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 28 Jan 2010 03:42 PM 
Dave, 
Not to worry. 
Instead of that morning coffee everyday, just put $2.00 in a bank account. 
So, that's $730 a year. 
Now it would probably be in a savings account at 0.005% (or whatever the banks are offering these days) so we won't include interest! 
So, if the Challenger is $12,000, that means by 2026 you will have enough money to get one. 
However, by then as it will be one on the most sought after Aster engines, the price well probably have doubled, so it will be more like 2042 when you can actually get it! 
Oh well, not to worry, just find a friend who has one and who will let you run it for him. 
You then can have all the fun, and not the expense. 
Which bring me to the next scatterbrain suggestion. 
How about an Aster Owners Co-op. 
Everyone buys shares into multiple locos and then each year you get to play with a loco for six months and then pass it on the the next member, and then you in turn get a different one too. 
Knowing my luck I would keep getting a B-1, or a Grasshopper, or a Glaskasten, and never the Challenger!!! 
Oh well, 
Have a nice day, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

Good Idea, Mr Leech - after all, it is the way that many folks who could not otherwise afford a stable of super-cars can get to run a different model every week-end!

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I can say we are not discussing basic transportation. I like my trains but I do not need the top of the line. I buy the in between locos that i can afford and are good runners and I'm able to buy more than just the one, which gives me variety. As I said its nice but not for the average folk. May the folks that do invest, enjoy. Later RJD


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

So, what is the most desirable scheme? the black one or the gray? If you have a big boy, then I guess is the grayhound.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

How about Green?

;-)) [/b]


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris,
That is one great picture you posted. It really gives you an idea of the size of the Challanger. She is really big. Even my six foot two son was impressed when he stood next to a drive wheel when the Challanger was in Houston a couple of years back.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd like to see Up's 844, bit smaller but big drivers, easier to haul around, and no one has ever made it.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
One can seek it out....electric verison:Samhongsa UP FEF-3 4-8-4 imported by Garden Railways (no longer in business) then convert it to live steam.

Speaking of prior models and cost in perspective to the Aster's offering and price:
Electric Challenger cost


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 31 Jan 2010 09:05 AM 
I'd like to see Up's 844, bit smaller but big drivers, easier to haul around, and no one has ever made it. 
Jerry, I go along with your request, but as ever, would like to add either of the two West Coast Northerns still in service, albeit in tourist service, withut the billions of $$$ provided by UP.

I'm referring, of course, to the Santa Fe 3751, and to MY particular choice, the SP&S E-1 700.

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd second the request for the SP&S E-1, which could also be offered as a Northern Pacific A-3.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rwjenkins on 31 Jan 2010 08:31 PM 
I'd second the request for the SP&S E-1, which could also be offered as a Northern Pacific A-3. 
Well, that's two of us so far.......









tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Well,

My DREAM engine would be a live steam American 4-4-0 e.g. like the INYO or Jupiter, BUT in true 1:32 scale.
This will be a tiny piece of equipment and something of a challenge if one expects a good performer. 
However, Aster has shown with the Stirling Single that it can be done.
Plus they could sell two locos in a "Golden Spike-Memorial"-set (150th anniversary in 2019!)

Maybe I simply watched too many horse operas in my youth...

Michael


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Michael 

Your DREAM engine has already been done by Aster. It was the second engine they produced, back in about 1977. It is the 4-4-0 V&T Reno. They are still around in the market, sometimes as unbuilt kits.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 01 Feb 2010 05:53 PM 
Michael 

Your DREAM engine has already been done by Aster. It was the second engine they produced, back in about 1977. It is the 4-4-0 V&T Reno. They are still around in the market, sometimes as unbuilt kits. 
Jim,

The Reno was made to a scale of 1/23 or 1/24, depending on who you talk to. Michael wants a 1:32 scale model of the same style of engine...probably a bit less spartan looking too.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 01 Feb 2010 05:53 PM 
Michael 

Your DREAM engine has already been done by Aster. It was the second engine they produced, back in about 1977. It is the 4-4-0 V&T Reno. They are still around in the market, sometimes as unbuilt kits. 
Hi Jim,
I hate to be called a 'rivet corrector', but it was actually Asters THIRD loco.
1 = Schools
2 = JNR Mogul 8550
and then the V&T Reno in 1976
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Hold your horses before attaching to any bandwagon for anything other than the Challenger until the March meeting when Hans and Aster make a decision: then it's open for every dream locomotive one would like to suggest. If I were to place a bet....Challenger: it is UP, it is an icon and it has world wide appeal.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I hope you are right Charles aout the Challenger. Like some in the hobby, you can only run one engine ata time, but wouldn'T SHE LOOK GOOD SITTING ON THE MANTLE AWAITING HER TURN.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I'll stick with my Challenger that I bashed out of two Pacifics.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
You seem to have a bit of influence....build it and they will following! 


We are drooling and you're certainly saving your pennies!


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

JThis a video done some time ago of a BigB oy and a Challenger built y John Winnie here in Houston. They still run at the Larger shows here in Houston. He used the Aristo Pacifics to build his as well. Doesn't that Challenger look good.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

At the end of the day................. If Aster makes the UP 3985 Challenger, like the Big Boy................ it will be one of the most sought after Aster engines ever produced. *IMHO, * as far as U.S. prototype Aster loco's go: Big Boy #1, Challenger UP 3985 #2, Daylight #3, Berkshire #4 What do you all think??


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
No Allegheny ??


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd put the H8 either before of after the Daylight. Probable before


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, what about the Aster NYC Hudson?? To many non-Americans this has to be the iconic North American locomotive although the Aster was gas fired and not an easy model to handle. 

If Aster do the Challenger it will be a knockout but make no mistake, if Hans doesn't get the interest it will not get produced. So if you want one then get in touch with Hans or your Aster dealer and get your name on the list.


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## Muzzlez (Apr 23, 2009)

I was able to take pictures of a 1/32 Row & Company Union Pacific Challenger #3985 a few years back. This engine was built by Samhongsa and imported by Row & Company in the 90's. Once and awhile you will find them on ebay or Caboose Hobbies. This should give you a good idea what the Aster version will look like. Somewhere I have pictures of the two tone gray version with the yellow stripe. Once I find them I will post them. Enjoy!



http://members.trainorders.com/muzzlez/DSC01360.JPG
http://members.trainorders.com/muzzlez/DSC01361.JPG


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02 Feb 2010 03:36 PM 
Steve
No Allegheny ?? 

I had a brain freeze and forgot the Allegheny.









Revised list, *IMHO :* Big Boy #1, Challenger (if made) #2, Allegheny #3, Daylight #4, Berkshire #5, NYC Hudson #6, S2 #7, PRR K4 #8, Western Maryland Shay #9, Southern Mikado #10

What do you think the top 10 are? Not your favorite, but what you think the most "_Wished you could own U.S. prototype Asters"_ are.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
I am glad you added the S-2 to the list. I would have been very disappoited had you left her out. Surely there are fifty soule out there that are not getting any real return on their investsments that might get a better return or at least more enjoyment out of a "Great" ;ocomotive.
Im trying to do my part and so is Sam.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
How about some commentary on how you ranked the locomotives...


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02 Feb 2010 05:07 PM 
Steve
How about some commentary on how you ranked the locomotives... 

_IMHO_[/b] = I have been in this great hobby for about 12 years now and over that time this opinion is based on what I have read on forums, in magazines, in internet articles and listened and talked to other steam friends and acquaintances in regards to Aster U.S. engines. Thats it, nothing more. That is why I am interested in others opinion.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
Might be premature with the rankings given that the Challenger is an unknown at this point. Yet, you have quite an impressive list of Asters to consider regards their many attributes. Any of them could be top of the list for whatever reason, experience and opportunity to a hobbyist having the good fortunate to enjoy. I would be hard pressed to have made a ranking one over the other. I always wondered if I had to choose only one.....


I can recall how the Asters made such an impression and were the influencing factor towards live steam: Wm Shay, K4, GS4, Big Boy all were aspirations of ownership. They all have endured the years in such a way that allows Aster to command the high end market place with each production model such as the more recent ones: Berkshire and S2.

In the near future we will continue this conversation if and when the Challenger has its opportunity to become part of the Aster legends.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Charles, its always fun to talk Trains. You make some good points. Lists are fun, but they are just that persons opinion. Truth is..........................I like em all.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I love talking trains, and seeing them and soon building them. Center Castle cylinder built today, one is binding a bit, have to play with it a bit more. None the less, Doug and I are having fun. He has been taking photos, then I'll add a narative


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 02 Feb 2010 11:40 AM 
I hope you are right Charles aout the Challenger. Like some in the hobby, you can only run one engine ata time, but wouldn'T SHE LOOK GOOD SITTING ON THE MANTLE AWAITING HER TURN.








Sir, if I had the Aster Challenger, it's because I'd had to sell the mantle....

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Revised list, IMHO : Big Boy #1, Challenger (if made) #2, Allegheny #3, Daylight #4, Berkshire #5, NYC Hudson #6, S2 #7, PRR K4 #8, Western Maryland Shay #9, Southern Mikado #10

Steve - you're killing me. A Challenger ahead of the Allegheny? You only say that because you don't have an H-8. You're just jealous. Sell (me) that silly gas powered loco and buy a real one. Then you will have the order correct. H-8 first, and 3985 (if made) second. Who cares what is third?


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

IMHO: Berkshire; S-2; H8, Daylight....... long gap............ Hudson, K4

I don't own a Big Boy







, so i can't comment. I love the berkshire because it pulls well, is very controllable and just works. My Allegheny is very finicky and, much though I love to see it in operation, it seems to end every outing on the workshop bench. As to the bottom of the list, it reflects my reflects my view of the abomination that is butane!

I had a faint hope, now dashed, that Aster would go for one of the great streamliners such as NW 611. But the challenger isn't a bad choice and I will be signing up although also very tempted by the SNCF 241P.....

Robert


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zephyra on 03 Feb 2010 10:07 AM 
IMHO: Berkshire; S-2; H8, Daylight....... long gap............ Hudson, K4

I don't own a Big Boy







, so i can't comment. I love the berkshire because it pulls well, is very controllable and just works. My Allegheny is very finicky and, much though I love to see it in operation, it seems to end every outing on the workshop bench. As to the bottom of the list, it reflects my reflects my view of the abomination that is butane!

I had a faint hope, now dashed, that Aster would go for one of the _*great streamliners such as NW 611. *_But the challenger isn't a bad choice and I will be signing up although also very tempted by the SNCF 241P.....

Robert
Robert
If that was the case that Aster did the J 611 properly (as they do...) without a doubt it would be #1 on my list!:


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Now I'm getting interested! I had the privilege of riding behind 611 up Saluda on the first half of the train (" she had to double the hill") and then look and listen as she hauled the second half up and around the twisting line near the top. Magnificent engine, right up there with the NKP Berks. Truly awe inspiring. 

Larry


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Allman said:
You're just jealous. Sell (me) that silly gas powered loco and buy a real one. Then you will have the order correct.


For some reason "gas" just does not seem to bother me in that particular engine.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry
At the present time (due to the lack of interest by major manufacturers) we are converting our electric J 611 to coal fired! The TRS shops are in the process of building the boiler and hope to have completed that portion of the project for the NSS meet this summer.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, I have heard of converting a sparky to live steam. But converting to live steam, _coal fired_.......................Thats got to be some kind of first. Keep us updated.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 03 Feb 2010 07:50 PM 
Charles, I have heard of converting a sparky to live steam. But converting to live steam, _coal fired_.......................Thats got to be some kind of first. Keep us updated.

Steve,

Our good friend Justin Koch had a lengthy thread on converting his Accucraft K-27 from electric to butane and then to coal. There are some photos on our website of the second engine he is converting for Jeff Redeker. The reasoning that I was told form Justin on his initial Electric-Gas-Coal conversion was that he could not get his hands on a K-27 fuel tank, so coal firing was the next obvious choice. 

Shop work (scroll down to the bottom of the page for photos of the progress on the second K-27)

You can also see a cardboard mockup of the N&W J boiler about halfway down the same page.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, 

Junstin's boiler is looking good. Don't let Doug see this, next thing you know he'll convert his K36 to coal and only buy cans for the Lady Anne.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

AMAZING work guys!


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

An N&W J, now that's an engine I would be very interested in! 

Charles, who made the electric version?


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Ryan, I looked around at the link you gave. Some amazing work there. You and your Dad have had some incredible accomplishments in this hobby. One of the best things is how the two of you together have been able to work on so many of these projects. That may just be the best part of it all.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark, 

Samhongsa produced the N&W J on commission from the Garden Railway Co back in the early 1990's. There were only 60 or so produced, I cannot recall the exact number off hand. They pop up on ebay from time to time and are strongly built engines powered by 2 Pittman coreless motors and a strong bevel gearbox.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
Thanks for the acknowledgment, we enjoy the challenges and being able to help those that have a need so that their steam experience is optimal


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Aster USA website has been updated with some information on the Challenger project.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Input...more input with about 30 days to go!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Accessories: Extra Tenders?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

A tub-style tender used to be available for the BR38 - I enquired last year about one from mr Pullen. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

On the Aster website, they mention that the headlight will be battery powered. But they don't say anything about the marker lights or the number boards. I saw the "real thing" six years ago at the Union Pacific yards in Hearne, TX at an overnight stop on its journey to Houston. It sure looks like marker lights and illuminated number boards.



















If Aster goes to the trouble of running the wires from the battery to the headlight, it would be a nice touch of modeling reality if they add light to the marker lights and number boards also.
Or maybe it's in their plans, but they just didn't say so.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

First, catch your Challenger...... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Most mass production units do not offer any working lights, so I consider this a bonus. I believe the S2 would a first offering.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 17 Feb 2010 09:37 AM 
Most mass production units do not offer any working lights, so I consider this a bonus. I believe the S2 would a first offering. If you limit yourself to live steam. But AristoCraft C-16 (battery or track powered) have functioning marker lights and headlights (but no illuminated number board because they didn't have a number board).


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## aankus (Jan 5, 2008)

Do my 'olde' eyes see a 'teat' on the front of the Challenger ???? : > {*


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Lighting the headlamp will be relatively simple, as the battery could be housed in the "box" directly under. Running wires up to the number boards and marker lights, not so simple.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 17 Feb 2010 01:00 PM 
Lighting the headlamp will be relatively simple, as the battery could be housed in the "box" directly under. Running wires up to the number boards and marker lights, not so simple. That's a good point. I was thinking of batteries in the tender where those who do R/C most often locate batteries.

Batteries in the tender would make it difficult to run wires the length of the firebox and boiler and keep them from getting fried (melted insulation) by the heat.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

For those of you who have not seen the video of the 3985, I have taken the liberty of putting a small clip out of the video to encourage the ones that have not made a decision on the Challenger.


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## aankus (Jan 5, 2008)

Did the challenger have two smoke stacks ? aka Big Boy ?


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

yes, two stacks


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By aankus on 20 Feb 2010 08:05 PM 
Did the challenger have two smoke stacks ? aka Big Boy ? 




Yes and no. The “early challengers” had a single stack.


This link takes you to some pictures of an HO brass model. HO Key UP Oil 3800 Class 4-6-6-4 #3800



Alan





http://brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=014136


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## A 4 liter V8 eater (May 22, 2009)

I would love to see a Western Maryland


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 17 Feb 2010 01:00 PM 
Lighting the headlamp will be relatively simple, as the battery could be housed in the "box" directly under. ...

this is exactly how the S2 headlamp is lit.

looks like a longer treadmill is in my future.
i was the 7th or 8th deposit from the dealer i contacted.

he was very optimistic that sufficient orders for production would not be a problem.


i'm curious if anyone is going for the passenger livery(?) 


cheers...gary


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary
+1 on the passenger version.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

+ 2 on the passenger version


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Check the Aster USA web site and choose from the left side column: UP Challenger- photos of things yet to come!!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02 Jun 2011 08:24 AM 
Check the Aster USA web site and choose from the left side column: UP Challenger- photos of things yet to come!! Updates for the Challenger are posted....impressive (of course it's an Aster)!


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Al, 

The first batch of UP challengers, (ending in numbers-15 through -39), had single stacks. But those locos did not resemble the later challengers much, being a different design. The later 3900 series UP Challengers looked different, like shorter Big Boys, I think. Those had centipede tenders and dual stacks. Some of those were sent to the D&RGW as well, and then those migrated to the Clinchfield. The Clinchfield put single stacks on. 

Cheers


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Why are these Jan 2010 messages just now showing up?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce
It is a continuation of the original post with an update just recently as to the progress of the pilot model that can be seen on the Aster USA site.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Check it out: boiler body, tender, and much more now on the Aster USA sight as per most recent update of the Challenger prototype.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow What a model she'll be! Aster sure is first class...my Old Climax is a great engine but this new beast is something else again! They get better and better! 

If I recall correctly the Bigboy was about $10K back in the early 90's I think that the asking price for the Challenger while beyond my bank account is very reasonable! 

After reading the old posts I would put in my two cents for some smaller, more affordable engines in 1:32 scale. Some of the 1870's 4-4-0s were really cool looking and not all that small except compared to the super power of the 1930's and 40's. I also like the later "modern" 4-4-0s from the 1890's and 1900's like Pennsy 1223 and Empire state express 999


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Update on site with smoke box components!


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

One more photo added on 7/20 engine on test rollers.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

New photos of the tender, click on pic for larger version. ( 7/22)


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

does anyone know if reservations can still be placed on the Challenger?
if not, have the maximum number of models to be produced already been reserved?
and what will the maximum number of kits/assembled models be?

the pilot model looks amazing so far.
cheers...gary


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

You can still place a reservation on the Aster Challenger. As I understand it when the reservation deadline is reached there will not be any extra units made, it will be a limited edition production with the number being regulated by the number of reservations submitted.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 25 Jul 2011 01:38 AM 
does anyone know if reservations can still be placed on the Challenger?
if not, have the maximum number of models to be produced already been reserved?
and what will the maximum number of kits/assembled models be?

the pilot model looks amazing so far.
cheers...gary 










Depending on where you live, talk to Jim Pitts, or Hans, David M-K, Dan or Andrew Pullen - perhaps you'll get lucky when somebody's wife finds out how much this model is actually going to cost, and pulls out of the deal.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

It will be interesting to see: 
1) How close to the $12,500 the final price is. 
2) When, or if, we find out the final number ordered before they are built. 
3) Whether the odd 'extra' will in fact be built, just in case, or because they have extra parts. Surely to cover breakage or bad manufacture, Aster will have to make a percentage of extras. 
We will see, or maybe not. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

to those emailing me reservation offers, i already have a deposit down. i was only curious about the reservation policy; a deposit i thought at the time was necessary to reserve a model. apparently 18 months later it's still possible to get in on this locomotive. i have a feeling Aster will go ahead and produce the maximum number of models agreed upon with UP.

...gary


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 25 Jul 2011 09:33 AM 
to those emailing me reservation offers, i already have a deposit down. i was only curious about the reservation policy; a deposit i thought at the time was necessary to reserve a model. apparently 18 months later it's still possible to get in on this locomotive. i have a feeling Aster will go ahead and produce the maximum number of models agreed upon with UP.

...gary 
Gary, first time I have heard that a third party (other than customers) would dictate sales or sale projects. I thought that the production run was determined by Aster and Hans....


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Once someone starts to build one of these kits, I hope they document it as well as jeremiah(iceclimber) is doing with his mikado kit!
http://astermikado.blogspot.com


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew
If you look at the informative threads you will be a build sequence done by a young hobbyist that was very well documented for the Berkshire and I am sure will be done once again for the Challenger:

Berkshire build pt. 1

Followed by

Berkshire build pt. 2 



The build log was an early attempt to match the excellent build of several Asters done in Japan

Aster builds- Live steam section


Glad to see that Jeremiah log allows us to follow along his build procedure with an well documented step process giving insight the the Mikado kit.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Charles, I really enjoyed your Berkshire build log before but I did not know about the aster ones, thanks for the link (I was hoping people would link more build logs when I posted it hehe)


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

It will be interesting to see: 
1) How close to the $12,500 the final price is. 
2) When, or if, we find out the final number ordered before they are built. 
3) Whether the odd 'extra' will in fact be built, just in case, or because they have extra parts. Surely to cover breakage or bad manufacture, Aster will have to make a percentage of extras. 


A lot of these questions are known but it is not my place to talk about it, it is Hans' or Aster's.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bench test video of Challenger: seek and find on Aster Japan website!


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

http://www.asterhobby.com/CL04_01/detail.php?id=83

here is the Japanese version of the Challenger site. video is link marked "1st test"

nice! as always, though, wish there was space for a proper whistle.


cheers...gary


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary
I am sure there will be space for a proper whistle, maybe not in the original location on the locomotive, we will find and replace.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I waited almost 3/4 hour for the download, but nothing happened. But then, as Mrs tac reminded me rather causticly, looking at the Challenger is a purely academic exercise at this address..... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 30 Jul 2011 03:36 PM 
Well, I waited almost 3/4 hour for the download, but nothing happened. But then, as Mrs tac reminded me rather causticly, looking at the Challenger is a purely academic exercise at this address..... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
it is 72M but shouldn't take that long on a high speed connection. try right-click; "Save Link as..." (Firefox) to monitor download? if i didn't think i'd require permission, i could upload it to Youtube easily enough. it does just look like a boiler test since i haven't seen any sign of the articulated joints yet. ...or am i wrong?

...gary


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

That is gonna be one beautiful engine. If Chuck and Jeff get one it will run forever with their changing out the fuel the way they do.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 30 Jul 2011 03:36 PM 
Well, I waited almost 3/4 hour for the download, but nothing happened. But then, as Mrs tac reminded me rather causticly, looking at the Challenger is a purely academic exercise at this address..... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org Terry

You can view it on my flickr account:

Challenger


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, thank for posting the link.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

New pic posted today


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## c1run1 (Aug 4, 2011)

thanks Charles ,
i can't afford that so i'll have to watch the videos .


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## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

I apologize about posting to this sacred list without first being AS certified, but I was curious if anybody would like to venture a guess if the tender on the prototype is constructed from what appears to be stainless steel or aluminum. If anybody knows for sure, I would also be interested in knowing why.


Tom Burns

PS - I would gladly jump at the opportunity be become AS certified if they ever chose to produce anything in 1:20.3. I am very "narrow" minded.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom
Tender is steel. 



For those keep track of the development there are new photos and video posted on Aster Japan home site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6012553894/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks, Charles - that sure is one heck of a boiler there, eh? 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

New update with photos and time line.

Challenger


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

At the finish line...

Aster USA Challenger


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

My apologies to Hans and Aster....the tender is stainless steel, not steel. Looking forward to reports on the prototype.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

She is one beautiful engine but guess I will have to be satisfied with the BB. Might be a better investment though than what we have going on on Wall Street.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I wonder when Hans will get it to play with, and when others might get to see it. 
Perhaps Diamondhead???? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## agrund (Feb 19, 2011)

Just in case you like to know, I visited today Aster in Yokohama to solve a problem with my Shay and Mr. Fujii told that the first batch of Challengers was shipped Aug. 10 to the US. 

Best, 

Andreas


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By agrund on 10 Aug 2011 11:43 PM 
Just in case you like to know, I visited today Aster in Yokohama to solve a problem with my Shay and Mr. Fujii told that the first batch of Challengers was shipped Aug. 10 to the US. 

Best, 

Andreas Given that Hans has yet to test/review the prototype I believe Fujii-san was talking about the prototype being shipped to US not production run being shipped.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 10 Aug 2011 02:57 PM 
My apologies to Hans and Aster....the tender is stainless steel, not steel.


Same as on the S-2.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

HI ALL:

Yesterday, I was inform of the possible prices for the RTR challengers, it appears that the KIt will be close to $12,500.00 usd and the RTR black version will be close to $14,800.00 usd and the RTR grey version will be $15,400.00 usd. Of course at this moment the prices are not fixed yet, depending on the exchange rate. Since I have a BB, I was looking into the Grey version, but it is too much money to pay in one payment for me. Sine the KIT version is almost $2500 usd less, I may try that instead, unless the recomendation is not to begin with such engine as the first to assemble.

Best regards,

Patricio


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Being in the process of building an Aster kit, I would say if you possess common sense then you will be fine as long as you follow directions. I would think that by now the directions/drawings and kits are vastly improved since when the Mikado came out, plus rather than being a bit harder to get replacement parts, the Challenger will be fine if something is out of spec. I say, if you were going to get the engine anyway, go with the kit. You will get a great understanding of how it works. Take it slow and don't let yourself be overwhelmed by all the small parts. It will go together.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Thank you Jeremiah: 

You know, what you said about understanding how it works, that is what I am looking for, since all my engines are RTR. I build rc helicopters, cars, etc. with no problem, I hope the instructions are very clear, but sometimes you have to consider too that buyers look more for RTR engines than KITS, unless you know for sure who is the builder of the kits. Since the challenger is almost $3,000 usd less if KIT build, I will consider that option this time, and have a great time do in it. 

Best regards, 

Patricio


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I think in some ways, a kit build might run better than a factory build depending upon who built it of course. From what I have read over the time I have been on this forum, I might even say that someone like Jeff Runge Could in fact build it better than RTR. However, I do see your point if you are looking at one day parting with this. You could do a blog like me and show people pictures of stages during construction. Also, you are taking your time building it unlike perhaps a factory worker who is working on the clock and might go through some stages quicker than you would at home. Sometimes hurrying leads to oversights. Just something to consider. BTW, I'll add a disclaimer here that my intent is not to put any cloud of doubt over any RTR engine you may buy.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 11 Aug 2011 10:21 AM 
I think in some ways, a kit build might run better than a factory build depending upon who built it of course. From what I have read over the time I have been on this forum, I might even say that someone like Jeff Runge Could in fact build it better than RTR. However, I do see your point if you are looking at one day parting with this. You could do a blog like me and show people pictures of stages during construction. Also, you are taking your time building it unlike perhaps a factory worker who is working on the clock and might go through some stages quicker than you would at home. Sometimes hurrying leads to oversights. Just something to consider. BTW, I'll add a disclaimer here that my intent is not to put any cloud of doubt over any RTR engine you may buy. 
Jeremiah
You are correct in saying Jeff could probably build the Challenger better than RTR. He built my S-2, delivered my BB and built the K-4 that I got from him ealier this summer. He doe a great job. I thouhgt about a Challenger myself and i tend to agree with you about building one from a kit. If you take your time and watch what you are doing, It appears to me the most serious task is the cylindeers and timing. Like you said, manuals have gotten easier and cleare to understand. But on the other hand, a 12,500 investment shud ne inthe hands of an expert.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 11 Aug 2011 12:12 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 11 Aug 2011 10:21 AM 
I think in some ways, a kit build might run better than a factory build depending upon who built it of course. From what I have read over the time I have been on this forum, I might even say that someone like Jeff Runge Could in fact build it better than RTR. However, I do see your point if you are looking at one day parting with this. You could do a blog like me and show people pictures of stages during construction. Also, you are taking your time building it unlike perhaps a factory worker who is working on the clock and might go through some stages quicker than you would at home. Sometimes hurrying leads to oversights. Just something to consider. BTW, I'll add a disclaimer here that my intent is not to put any cloud of doubt over any RTR engine you may buy. 
Jeremiah
You are correct in saying Jeff could probably build the Challenger better than RTR. He built my S-2, delivered my BB and built the K-4 that I got from him ealier this summer. He doe a great job. I thouhgt about a Challenger myself and i tend to agree with you about building one from a kit. If you take your time and watch what you are doing, It appears to me the most serious task is the cylindeers and timing. Like you said, manuals have gotten easier and cleare to understand. But on the other hand, a 12,500 investment shud ne inthe hands of an expert.

Interesting how one seems to doubt RTR and the build ability of the Aster personnel.... As to "experts" and one's ability to build a kit, in 2005 a 16 year old hobbyist built an Aster Berk kit in less than 40 hours that still runs well. So, any one buying an Aster product, in particular the Challenger, the viable options of experts are: Aster technicians, recommended builders (Hans can give out contacts of such "experts") or become an expert through building experience with assistance as need from those would have experience with Aster kits. I am not sure how one builds the kit any better than specifications unless modifications are developed that could enhance performance.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

While I appreciate all the compliments, and am happy to build engines for those who don't have the time ( and think they don't have the skills, but most likely do) I have to agree with Charles. I think the Aster RTR's are very well built. While is was possible to build the Berkshire in about 40 hrs, I don't recommend rushing, it is too easy to overlook things. I think a reasonable time on the Berkshire or S-2 is 50 to 60 hrs if it is your first engine. BTW that "16 year old" has become very knowledgeable and helpful steamer, taking on much larger modifications and repair projects then most.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Charles on 11 Aug 2011 12:53 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 11 Aug 2011 12:12 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 11 Aug 2011 10:21 AM 
I think in some ways, a kit build might run better than a factory build depending upon who built it of course. From what I have read over the time I have been on this forum, I might even say that someone like Jeff Runge Could in fact build it better than RTR. However, I do see your point if you are looking at one day parting with this. You could do a blog like me and show people pictures of stages during construction. Also, you are taking your time building it unlike perhaps a factory worker who is working on the clock and might go through some stages quicker than you would at home. Sometimes hurrying leads to oversights. Just something to consider. *BTW, I'll add a disclaimer here that my intent is not to put any cloud of doubt over any RTR engine you may buy. * 
Jeremiah
You are correct in saying Jeff could probably build the Challenger better than RTR. He built my S-2, delivered my BB and built the K-4 that I got from him ealier this summer. He doe a great job. I thouhgt about a Challenger myself and i tend to agree with you about building one from a kit. If you take your time and watch what you are doing, It appears to me the most serious task is the cylindeers and timing. Like you said, manuals have gotten easier and cleare to understand. But on the other hand, a 12,500 investment shud ne inthe hands of an expert.

*Interesting how one seems to doubt RTR and the build ability of the Aster personnel....* As to "experts" and one's ability to build a kit, in 2005 a 16 year old hobbyist built an Aster Berk kit in less than 40 hours that still runs well. So, any one buying an Aster product, in particular the Challenger, the viable options of experts are: Aster technicians, recommended builders (Hans can give out contacts of such "experts") or become an expert through building experience with assistance as need from those would have experience with Aster kits. I am not sure how one builds the kit any better than specifications unless modifications are developed that could enhance performance. 

Sort of missed that disclaimer right?
I am not doubting nor putting any stereotype on RTR engines built by Aster personnel.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah- you cannot have it both ways....again I say how can one build it better than to specification?


"I might even say that someone like Jeff Runge Could *in fact build it better than RTR*."


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Ok, here we go. 

I am not an Aster snob. I am far from it. The ONLY reason I bought an Aster because one was available in KIT form which I happen to have wanted. I could list for you a multitude of issues I have experienced that were beyond my control. Now, am I mad at Aster? Certainly not. Am I mad at anyone really? No. That said, if this many issues have occurred in one KIT I would say that the person who put together my kit from the factory was having a bad day or perhaps a little less focused day. So Charles I CAN have it both ways. You see, I am taking my time with the kit. I am not trying to put it together in a hurry so I can start on the next one to be an efficient employee. Perhaps that is all it was with the factory worker who packed together my parts. Now, does that mean that EVERY factory worker who is employed by ASTER rushes everything? Certainly not. Did you guys not improve upon the Accucraft GS4? Guess the factory workers didn't quite meet YOUR specifications.

If that goes for packing together a kit, then it also applies to the building up of a RTR one. You seem to imply I am picking on the factory worker who builds RTR engines for a living, but I am not. I am simply saying that oversight is a part of life in all jobs. Some days I do my job better than other days. I am simply stating that for an average kit builder with knowledge on how to follow directions and perhaps interpret what is meant by some of the translation errors, a kit could possibly turn out a bit better than one put together by an employee of the company trying to meet the days quota. The key word is COULD. I am not trying to point out an absolute truth here. I have talked with those who have had NO problems at all with their Mikado kits and they went together like clockwork because the parts were machined correctly. 

Sorry for the rant.









Sorry, just one more thing. I am very aware that those who make products are not necessarily ones who use the said product the way the consumer will use that product. In that light, I believe the reason I said "someone like Jeff Runge" might build the kit a bit better is because he has built many of them over the years and there are little bits of knowledge gained here and there which might "enhance" the performance that might be outside the directions. That was all. 

In the end, I might be wrong. I'm certainly no expert in live steam or building one from a kit. I just know I am thoroughly enjoying building one and highly recommend building one to all in the hobby if they can get the opportunity.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles
I did intend for my comments to imply that Jeff could build the Challenger better than RTR, but I do not think you are Jeff would charge about 2500.00 more for the build .which looks like what the RTR will run ablove the kit. May be wrong and not putting Jeff on pedistle but he is only one I am familiar with who has built from kit. Nuff said.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 11 Aug 2011 07:53 PM 
Charles
I did intend for my comments to imply that Jeff could build the Challenger better than RTR, but I do not think you are Jeff would charge about 2500.00 more for the build .which looks like what the RTR will run ablove the kit. May be wrong and not putting Jeff on pedistle but he is only one I am familiar with who has built from kit. Nuff said.
My point was one cannot improve build process based on specifications if they are correct (errata sheet otherwise). As to mistakes...that is human nature. I would maintain to build better than RTR (correct specs) one would have to modify original plans. I doubt most builders of a kit constructing the locomotive in the proper time frame (not later on when operational experience determines change) have the insight or skills to change the design of the plans and parts making improvement modification (normally, Hans will determine that through his many test trials/examination prior the the production release) as the build is ongoing.

You are correct about Jeff and I know you will get a correctly built kit, service and in the process he probably found a few ways to better the build process at a reasonable price (I assume). I can remember our exchanges during the Berk build, help given with a technique for solving a leak in smokebox on Mikado and wick technique so on. Good choice in the partnership for your hobby interest and needs.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I meant to say "I did not intend to imply that Jeff could build a kit better. I am getting to old for this sort of stuff. Cannot read, cannot type, need cataracts removed.
What i need is some good old fashion rain and thunder and sleep.
Goodnite.


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