# DCC & Catenary



## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Greetings Everyone,

Q: I have always found LGB Trolleys cool looking I have had 2 in the past years ago. I'd like to at some point get at least one, and have it running on catenary, possibly could share part of a main line or spurt on my DCC layout? Is this possible? To have a DCC layout and use catenary? Or even possible to convert the trolley to DCC operation with overhead?

Help?

Thanks,

Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can do it, but it can be tricky, since you would do something like always pick up from the left rail and the catenary.

If you think about it, if you have reversing loops in your layout things can get confusing.

Just pick up from the rails as usual is easier.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Why would you want to run DCC on catenary? If you want the look, put it up and leave it dead. It is possible to install DCC in most anything.


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## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Treeman said:


> Why would you want to run DCC on catenary? If you want the look, put it up and leave it dead. It is possible to install DCC in most anything.


Well, the cost of the catenary, is expensive, so it might as well serve the purpose. Probably what I'll do is just leave them separate lines.

Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually there is the point where it looks good, and there is a much further point where it works good electrically.

Put it up for looks, and use the rails and save a lot of time, trouble, and frustration.

Greg


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## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Actually there is the point where it looks good, and there is a much further point where it works good electrically.
> 
> Put it up for looks, and use the rails and save a lot of time, trouble, and frustration.
> 
> Greg


Yeah i may just go that route. Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In the days of DC only, people wired the system so the catenary was a different power supply than the rails, and thus had independent control of the catenary vs. solely rail powered.

Of course with DCC, you have independent control of all locos already.

Maintaining catenary is a real pain.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

How does one raise the contacts in the engine if DCC controlled by overhead power??

I would make DCC rail power only.

My layout has DPDT switches to select DC or DCC for my track as many visitors do not have DCC engines, plus I have some DC only engines that I choose not to upgrade.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Here in the garden a Gauge 1 DCC controlled loco under catenary but running power via the track; so the pantographs can be raised (at 1 minute 40 seconds) by DCC:https://youtu.be/ocUxIsgMHD4?t=1m40s

Regards
Fred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes the USA Trains 1:29 GG-1 has DCC in it and can raise and lower the pantographs remotely. Very cool!


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## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Yes the USA Trains 1:29 GG-1 has DCC in it and can raise and lower the pantographs remotely. Very cool!


Oh that is nice.. but probably way out of my price range..

may get my trolley tonight.. not sure yet..


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no large scale experience but I have stug several hundred feet of HO overhead.

I wish you lived near me. I would love to help with installing your overhead. 

Using overhead wire almost completely eliminates short circuits since the overhead is so far from the rails. Also, if you use both rails for ground then there is no such thing as a reverse loop for catenary operation.


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## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Bill Swindell said:


> I have no large scale experience but I have stug several hundred feet of HO overhead.
> 
> I wish you lived near me. I would love to help with installing your overhead.
> 
> Using overhead wire almost completely eliminates short circuits since the overhead is so far from the rails. Also, if you use both rails for ground then there is no such thing as a reverse loop for catenary operation.


HO.. wow.. I could never find anything in HO or I would of done it in HO when I had it... Lost out on the trolley because the seller took their time answering questions.. Only thing I can find now remotely interesting is LGB's Christmas trolley.

I read up on the GG1 that was posted earlier.. it's DC/DCC with operating Pantographs. So I know the possibility is there.. just gotta figure out a plan..

Thanks!

Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As I stated, wiring will be the issue. The problem is that you want the catenary to be one of the 2 power feeds. How do you select which rail is the other feed? If the loco is always on the track the same way, and you don't have DCC reversing loops, it's pretty easy, but that is quite a restriction on a layout. Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Better be looking for some larger curves.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike the GG-1 was an example... the OP says he wants an LGB trolley, R1 curves just fine.

I don't think he is going to spring for that USAT loco!

Greg


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## 2poor4Gscale (Oct 29, 2016)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Mike the GG-1 was an example... the OP says he wants an LGB trolley, R1 curves just fine.
> 
> I don't think he is going to spring for that USAT loco!
> 
> Greg


Exactly, lol not at 1,7000 or more.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Overhead operation is great and gives very good electrical contact. However there can be issues about doing it outside: Animals could break through it or even get caught in it, and if you run live steam it gets in the way. 
If your project is running trolley cars and interurbans there is very little financial outlay: Just get correct diameter dowels string the brass wire across from a pair of poles and above the track (you must make yourself a little pendulum to figure out where your catenary is in relation to the track) and solder the contact wire. If you want to model heavy electric (IE GG1s etc) thats another thing, the overhead needs complex poles (some can be made from brass I beam section) and the catenary itself becomes more complex IE: Compound catenary. The most complex would probably be the New Haven one if you want to get an idea of what you are getting into.
But for traction it is relatively simple, a neighbour who modeled trolleys and interurbans showed me how when I was 9 years old and I soldered my catenary myself at that age. So I guess anyone can do it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The topic started as DCC and catenary, and there are wiring issues that no one has a good answer to yet (at least on this thread).

This is the difficulty I am alluding to.

Greg


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

My father had catenary for Marklin in HO. It was wonderful, since the catenary ran a separate circuit, which meant two trains could be run independently without resorting to blocks.

Using catenary with DCC, independent control is no longer the selling point. But it will free you from shorts caused by reverse loops or wyes. I'd run one power feed to the catenary and the other power feed to both rails. You'll need to rewire your models, though, to go this route. So I'd see it as perhaps more work than it's worth.

Make sure the models you're looking at actually have electrical support for their pantographs. I think LGB pantographs are electrically functional, but I don't know for sure.

I'd love to do catenary if I build a detailed, benchwork layout. Running both rails as ground would be great, but I have electric and steam models, so I'd probably keep the factory wiring and +/- rails and just skip reversing loops.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB does have a switch in many engines to select rail or catenary. Located usually in the front cabin. Large 2 motor units have 2 switches, small units have just one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, how do you run a mix of catenary and non-catenary locos on DCC with both rails shorted to each other?

This is what I have been trying to point out the entire thread. A catenary only layout is easy, DC or DCC or running on "cold fusion".

But if you want to mix catenary and non-catenary it becomes very difficult, and I have not seen one person suggest how to do it.

Greg




BigRedOne said:


> My father had catenary for Marklin in HO. It was wonderful, since the catenary ran a separate circuit, which meant two trains could be run independently without resorting to blocks.
> 
> Using catenary with DCC, independent control is no longer the selling point. But it will free you from shorts caused by reverse loops or wyes. I'd run one power feed to the catenary and the other power feed to both rails. You'll need to rewire your models, though, to go this route. So I'd see it as perhaps more work than it's worth.
> 
> ...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have this stupid habit of reading the questions carefully and trying to respond accurately: 



2poor4Gscale said:


> Greetings Everyone,
> 
> Q: I have always found LGB Trolleys cool looking I have had 2 in the past years ago. I'd like to at some point get at least one, and have it running on catenary,* possibly could share part of a main line or spurt on my DCC layout? Is this possible?* To have a DCC layout and use catenary? Or even possible to convert the trolley to DCC operation with overhead?
> 
> ...


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

The only way I could think of would be battery in the non-catenary models.

I will say, though, I sure did like the three-rail for solving the polarity limitations. It ran more reliably, as you get twice as many wheels completing the circuit.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I have some ideas, but the OP seems to think it's simple, and apparently so do a number of posters on the thread.

Also remember the goal was to use the catenary for power, so battery is a no go also.

I was trying to warn 2poor away from such an idea. If I put my mind to it, might come up with a solution, but why make it complex, ESPECIALLY if you run DCC already, which has no issue with multiple train control.

Anyway, I guess I've tried to help, if there was a simple solution someone would have posted it.

Greg


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