# Aristo covered hopper, lowering & Kadee Coupler Installation



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Aristo covered hopper, lowering & Kadee Coupler Installation
Ted Doskaris
October 26, 2009

This vignette will describe a method for how an Aristo-Craft covered hopper car can be lowered and equipped with body mounted Kadee model 830 or 789 straight shank type coupler assemblies without modifying the car itself. 

The Kadee 830 box is relatively large and includes a single longitudinal spring loaded coupler within it whilst the 789 box is smaller and includes a dual spring loaded coupler having a lateral affect. Both types have self centering coupler characteristics.


For installing body mount couplers, there are two significant items that must be addressed:

1) Lowering the car

As with many Aristo rolling stock products, this car sits too high from the rail head.
In order to lower the car, some folks have done surgical modifications of the car in order to lower it - namely, cutting out the car's bolsters and replacing them with modified or newly fabricated ones of a lesser height.

I have not done this as the car will remaining intact as it comes from the Aristo factory.

Accordingly, I chose to replace the original Aristo Bettendorf type truck assemblies with USAT brand Bettendorf trucks (USAT part no. 2033) - albeit modified as later illustrated in drawings. 
These trucks are fairly inexpensive to purchase from USAT via Charles Ro Supply Company as they don't come with wheels. If lacking metal wheels, RLD Hobbies packages them in 4 axles to a bag for a reasonable price as shown below.








I modified these trucks by lowering their bolsters 0.220 inch - this value being about the practical maximum limit so as to retain their rigidity and pivot without interference when mounted on the car.








The unmodified USAT Bettendorf truck is shown at the left with the modified one at the right. The below picture shows the under side view. Note the coupler tang must be removed to clear the axle.








The USAT trucks lend themselves well to the modification whilst preserving their rigidity - something impractical and virtually impossible to do with the original Aristo trucks.
Shown below is the overall resultant 0.300 inch distance from the top of the side frame and bolster. 








When these trucks are mounted on the covered hopper car, there is some minimal, non objectionable, lateral rocking allowed. This affords a desirable amount of articulation with car operation on less than perfect track work since USAT trucks do not include actual working springs as found in the originally installed Aristo trucks.

2) Aligning the car's floor with the end sill

The Aristo covered hopper car as new out of the box typically must have its floor popped into its intended position at the open end areas of the car. But once doing that, the floor's end area will typically not line up flush with the car's end sill as there is no mechanical connection by design.
Shown below is how the floor typically bulges downward below the car's end sill.








With the car supplied and operated with truck mount couplers this would not be an issue, but when using body mount couplers the floor must be aligned with a consistent attitude, ideally by having its underside surface being made flush with the end sill.

In order to align and secure the floor to the end sill, I made use of a small metal clip modified from what was originally intended as an electrical crimp receptacle, but the clip can be newly fabricated as will be shown later in a drawing. The metal clip fastens to the floor and extends over the lip of the end sill.


















With the car lowered and the floor aligned, a spacer shim of about a tenth of an inch is also required to be placed between the Kadee coupler box and the underside of the car.
This spacer is virtually the same for both models of Kadee boxes. Its dimensions will be shown later in a drawing.
Shown below is the black plastic spacer resting on a Kadee 930 coupler box assembly ready to be mounted on a Union Pacific test car. Note that spacers and shim thickness values may somewhat vary from car to car depending on tolerances, including truck modification consistency. (The truck modifications will be discussed later and shown in a drawing.)








To level the coupler box, a thin washer of 0.032 inch thick is placed under the rear extremity of the box as shown in the example Wabash car below. Again, this value may vary somewhat.








A rectangular shim of 0.010 inch thick obtained from a Kadee model 787 kit was slid under the Kadee 789 box as shown below before the box was fastened down with a rear screw.










The test cars:

1) Wabash car

My first example car to try the Kadee installation on is the Aristo Wabash covered hopper.

Shown below is how dramatic this example car appears with an original Aristo truck left in place at the left and the modified USAT truck installed at the right. 









Shown below is an underside view of the car with an installed Kadee 830 box at the left and Kadee 789 box at the right. Note how the truck is allowed to pivot a bit more before its wheels touch the smaller 789 box. This may be of benefit for operation on curves tighter than 8 foot diameter - which is what these cars easily work on with the 830 type boxes.









2) Union Pacific car

I decided to do a second car to check for consistency. In this case I installed the model Kadee 930 at both ends of the car. 








The Kadee 930 assembly is the same as the Kadee 830 but made in a brown color, thereby better matching cars painted with brown or "box car red" colors.
Since these model Kadees have relatively large boxes, I believe color matching cars exhibiting open end type structures tends to lessen the more noticeable visual impact of the larger size box. In this regard, a more prototypical look would favor using the smaller model Kadee 789 box.

Dimensional Drawings

The following drawings illustrate where to drill holes in the car floor for mounting either Kadee 830 or Kadee 789 type coupler boxes, the required floor retaining clip, and the modifications required of the USAT Bettendorf trucks:

Kadee 830 or 789 coupler box mounting Locations, etc.:









Lowering the car using USAT Bettendorf truck assembly modifications:









Note: The USAT truck appears to made of a nylon type material - it being somewhat though to cut, but using a fine tooth razor saw works well.










Car Coupler Alignment Results:

Shown below is the Aristo Wabash test car with the model Kadee 789 installed as coupled to the Kadee 880 gauge.








Shown below is the Aristo Union Pacific test car with the model Kadee 930 installed as coupled to the Kadee 880 gauge.









As shown in the above pictures, it is to be appreciated how the floor retainer clip's fingers straddle over the car's end sill lip. This serves to align the floor with the end sill whilst keeping the end sill from pushing out due to forces incurred when its retaining screw is tightened down.

-Ted


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Very clever! that's a great way to lower those hoppers. If I ever go to body mount couplers I will surely do that


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Again we owe you many thanks for a great right up and great pics!!!!!!!!!!


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## acmartina (Jan 6, 2008)

Ted, 

Outstanding!! Very elegant solution. Thanks very much for posting this. It will be a big help!  
I have been in the process of converting all of my standard gauge equipment to body-mounts over the past few years, and the covered hoppers are the last dogs. I tried a couple of approaches but couldn't get past the warping at the sills. I thought about various clamps but your method nails it! Also like the lowering approach. Would never have thought to modify the trucks. I will give it a try. Thanks  

Steve H. 
Cypress, TX


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks a lot Ted, you solved the problem that was keeping me from buying these! I need Kadee body mounts, and making tapered shims was not my idea of a good time. Wonder if Aristo has a sale on? 

Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks all,

BTW, I wish to reiterate that only two screws are used to mount either the Kadee 830 or 789 coupler boxes, and the screws are 2-56 as supplied by Kadee with the 830 boxes. The forward mounting screw for each box also serves as the fastening screw for the floor retaining clip. The inner screw height must be trimmed so it does not protrude much past the floor for the end of the car having the brake assembly - otherwise it will interfere with it.


If using the 789 box, you must drill a hole centered through this box nub recess area for its forward mounting screw to pass through it. 
The purpose of using a tap to make threads in the car floor and floor retaining clip is to save one the difficulty of trying to place those small 2-56 nuts within the interior confines of the car - particularly on the end having the brake assembly, but if you wish, you can use the nuts. 

Consequently, when I did the test cars, I did not remove the brake assembly. 

When I migrate this vignette to Greg's web site, more pictures and info. is to be added as was done with the SP Hydra-Cushion car vignette.


-Ted


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks Ted, its always a pleasure reading your vignettes.

I always feel the complexity of the task at hand is made reasonable and not as over whelming after reading them. A real "you can do this too" attitude comes across, and that's so helpful. As a HO hobbyist one only has to turn the page in a MR to get info. In LS its sometimes a stretch, particularly with modern equipment. You and the folks here at MLS, pay no mind to what you model only that you enjoy doing it.

Thanks


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well done Ted. I will keep this in mind also should I ever decide to do body mounts. How ever just the trick o lower the car is helpful also. later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

More about the floor retaining clip:

Locating some common item to use for the floor retaining clip helps so you don't have to fabricate the entire clip from scratch.

In this regard, I happen to have a box of terminals intended to be receptacles for mating with electrical crimp type connectors. I adapted these by using small needle nose pliers and other tools to make the required bends in the locations shown in the drawing. For the clip's fingers, I cut the end off near the outer edge of hole.

Shown below in the foreground are a couple of completed retaining clips and in the background are a few terminals as they came out of the box. 
Notice the dimple that is almost in the exact place where the hole for no. 2-56 thread is to be drilled and tapped.












Comparing the looks of the finished car:



Shown below is a comparison of two Aristo UP covered hopper cars. The car on the left has the lowered USAT trucks and body mount Kadee couplers whilst the car on the right is "factory" but for its metal wheels.










-Ted


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I completed another lowered Aristo hopper car.

Shown below is Aristo's ATSF 2007 production run covered hopper before lowering it. This car includes factory painted truck side frames. I retrofitted the metal wheels - but other wise the car is as received when purchased.









The Kadee 930 coupler assemblies having molded in brown color are physically the same as the black Kadee 830 model.








The brown color of the 930 box is virtually identical to the ATSF car's color.









The floor retaining clip can be seen under the brake assembly.
(This time I painted it brown)









The end view of the car shown below illustrates the effectiveness of the floor retaining clip in aligning and securing the floor with the car's end sill.









As mounted, the Kadee 930 coupler of the car is in a virtual perfect alignment with the Kadee 880 gauge. 









Shown below is the finished car with lowered USAT trucks and Kadee 930 brown colored coupler assemblies installed.










More material:

The [/b]Aristo covered hopper, lowering & Kadee install vignette[/b] is now located on Greg's web site with much more material.

-Ted


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

At almost a year later having lowered all of my 26 Aristo 70 ton Covered Hopper cars, it appears folks are still interested in this thread given the gradual viewer count to date, and that I was informed USAT is temporarily out of stock on their R-2033 Bettendorf trucks primarily used in the modifications for the lowering of the car.











With the material of this thread having been migrated to Greg's web site as an article(link shown in the prior post) I added more material as an update, including:

Appendix A - Installation Techniques for the Coupler Box & Floor Retaining Clip 
and 
Appendix B - Lowered USAT Truck Having Tang Mounted Couplers (applicable to a "transition car")

-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted:

So you have any USAT cars? you could use the AC trucks and swap out for doing the AC hopper car if this is the only cars that need the mods to lower. Guessing that the USAT cars are not lowered. 

I have swapped out of USAT trucks and replaced them with AC trucks with no mods needed. To bad I did not know you where looking for these trucks as I gave all mine away. Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you RJ,

That's a really good idea.

-Ted


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## Shawn Fields (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,
Do you think that this really neat tip could be used to lower older Aristo/REA 40' Boxcars too?


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, 


I had checked on this, but the dimensional distance of the USAT truck bolster lowering will be less than that of the covered hopper car.


-Ted


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## Shawn Fields (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 05 Oct 2010 08:56 AM 
Yes, 


I had checked on this, but the dimensional distance of the USAT truck bolster lowering will be less than that of the covered hopper car.


-Ted 







Thanks Ted


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## acmartina (Jan 6, 2008)

Ted, 
Thanks again. Since reading this last year, I have had great success with these cars. For whatever reason, these cars were nothing but trouble for me with truck-mounted couplers. I am quite pleased with the result. However, in prioritizing things to do, I chose not to lower them. I also did not have access to the nice lugs you used for the top piece. So I thought I would share what I learned for anyone not taking the lowering plunge!
[*]For the top piece, I used a piece of 1/8" thick aluminum flat bar stock and cut a rectangle 7/8" x 3/8" wide. About 1/2" lies flat, and the prongs are cut from the remaining 3/8". I then cut a 1/16" wide slot (about 1/4-3/8 long) for the prongs. These are easy to shape with needle nose pliers. I then lightly grind the edges of the prongs down to fit (approx .355"). [*]For the shim below the un-lowered car (with Aristo metal wheels), I found 0.270" was about right. I used a piece of 1/4" aluminum bar stock cut 7/8" long by 1/2" wide, and a piece of 0.020" styrene (same dimensions) to complete the shim. [*]I used a Kadee 789. I drilled a clearance hole (approx. #28 bit) in the shims and carbody, and drilled and tapped the top piece (#43 bit) for a 4/40 screw. [/list] Here are a couple of photos. I have not gotten around to painting them. It's not pretty but it works. Thanks again for sharing your elegant solution.

Steve H.
Cypress, TX


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Steve, 

Thank you for sharing your method - good ideas. 

How did you deal with the brake apparatus end of the car? 

-Ted


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Finding this thread this morning is a big bunch of encouragement for me. Having started in Large scale hardly more than a year ago, and finishing a big hunk of construction now before the snow flies, I expect that next year I'll be transitioning from layout contruction to building up my rolling stock and making it work like a real railroad. 

My thanks to Ted, and to Greg for having it on his website so I don't have to print it all out right now. I grew to love Kadees in my HO days and expected to make the change sometime in the future, but the whole idea seemed pretty imposing. This step by step info makes it seema lot more doable, even for a klutz like me. 

Time for me to renew my membership. As if there was any doubt. 

JackM


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Jack and all others, too.
Its reassuring to know that folks derive inspiration and usefulness from the "vignettes" that make them worthwhile to continue doing.

Thus far, Greg has graciously hosted more than 40 "vignettes" for me, on his web site.
They can be found integrated within the various category sections on his site or all in one place under the following topic heading:

Ted Doskaris' Vignettes


Since vacating Aristo's Forum, I typically post a topic thread on MLS and usually add more material by the time it is uploaded to Greg's web site. From time to time updates may be done (with a revision date), too.

The Aristo 100 ton hopper & Kadees is the newest vignette.


-Ted


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## acmartina (Jan 6, 2008)

How did you deal with the brake apparatus end of the car?


Good point Ted! I trimmed the tail end of the top clip about a 1/4" shorter on the brake end and it nestles nicely under the brake kit. I drill the attachment hole close to the end of the car so it works on either end. I also trimmed part of the coupler tail for access to the screws. I found it easiest to remove the brake apparatus but leave the screws in place while installing the coupler. 

I was inspired by the resurrection of this thread so I went out today and converted one more hopper, paying more attention to the details. In the process I realized I made a couple of errors and omissions in my post last week.
The top clip is 1/16" stock (not 1/8"). It is not practical to bend 1/8" aluminum into that shape. Even with 1/16, it is brittle. Cut a few extras as you will likely break one while bending the prongs! The shim I used is 0.29" (0.25" aluminum bar + 0.040" styrene) - not 0.27" as I originally wrote, although I think it would work. You have to drill a clearance hole (no. 28) in the Kadee 789 coupler tail as well, just a 1/16 or so aft of the draft gear box. I align the front of the shim with the bitter end of the car (i.e. the piece protruding). I made a styrene template of the shim to use in drilling the holes in the shims, carbody, and top clip. A 3/4" screw is the perfect length. It just protrudes slightly through the top clip [/list] See photos attached - 


Fitting the clip (you can see the hole for the brake kit)
After coupler installation, but before re-installing the brake apparatus
Brakes back in place
 Thanks,
Steve H.
Cypress, TX


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you, Steve, for the added info. 

Your clip that tucks under the brake valve is very similar to how I did it. 

I believe the clip material in the ones I used (made from modified electrical lugs) is tinned brass or other comparable material. It is fairly strong but not brittle, and I was able to use a small punch to peen and bend the end at a sharp angle whilst clamping it in a small vise. 








Though this clip is fairly thin (measured at 0.032 inch thick at about half of your aluminum clip) it has good strength for retention of the screw - enough so that the floor plastic I threaded could be stripped out as intended whilst applying torque to the fastening screw. 

Thank you very much for clarifying and sharing your methods. 

-Ted


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