# Pennsy S2 Steam Turbine Locomotive



## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear all,
With my live steam LMS Turbomotive running satisfactorily, I'm open to a new modelling chalenge. The logical step would be - as it was in real life - a go at the Pennsy S2 Steam Turbine Locomotive. 
My Turbomotive turbine shaft power output is approx. 4 to 5 Watt. The Pennsy S2 would require 7 to 8 Watt. I've tried to improve the efficiency of my turbine - no success. American outline locomotives have much larger boilers than th British ones. By designing and building a more efficient boiler I should be able to produce the necessary steam to reach the required shaft power output.

First step therefore would be to build a boiler/turbine system which would demonstrate the required output. Everything else has second priority.

The boiler however has to fit the Pennsy S2 dimensions - and that's where I need help. I cannot find dimensional outline drawings of the locomotive in the web! Any pointer would be appreciated!

Werner


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The S2 was a direct drive turbine geared to the 2 center axles, this wasn't a steam/electric. Great at higher speeds, not so good at slow speeds.

John


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Werner,

Do you happen to know if the S2 shared any major components with a standard production locomotive? Perhaps there's several key dimensions in common with a different unit, one for which information is available.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Werner:
It's Simon from France, this is great news! I have a very detailed set of drawings published by the Pennsylvania Railroad Historical and Technical Society, last year in their Keystone magazine (volume 45 Number 3 autumn 2012). I can make photocopies and send you ask Chris for my E mail adress and we can get this going for you. It seems that the boiler was similar to the one on the duplex. From the article it's pitfall was that upon starting it used only one nozle wereas the LMS used many and it emptied the boiler at starting! Which in turn broke staybolts in the firebox... Too bad because it was a fascinating engine.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi all,

I am very much indepthed to Simon - he provided me with all the required information about this exceptional engine. So, I did start work on this project.

Experience from my previous turbine locos tells me, that to power such a large locomotive, I would require a turbine shaft output of at least 8 Watt. The american outline boilers are much larger than the european ones. Therefore it was possible to place 2 gas fired combustion chambers side by side. The boiler outsides are made of 0.5mm stainless steel, the bolted-in internals are 1mm copper. Gas jets are 0.8mm dia. each. The turbine is an experimental, improved version of my Turbomotive one, having however two 0.8mm dia nozzles in stead of one. 

Yesterday, I ran the first power tests. Much to my relief, the results were excellent! Below are some pictures of the event:

Leistungstest 02.2016 -01a.jpg
ltr: gas can holder upside down, gas can, burners,boiler, pressure gauge,
kitchen scale, exhaust steam condenser, instrumentation box, turbine generator, load box.

Leistungstest 02.2016 -04.jpg
ltr: boiler back with gas jets, gas preheat coil to vapourize liquid gas.

Leistungstest 02.2016 -05.jpg
ltr: boiler hot, liquid gas feeding, can temperature does not drop anymore.

Leistungstest 02.2016 -07.jpg
ltr: boiler front, turbine generator.

Leistungstest 02.2016 -09a.jpg
5 minute power output: 400 mA x 20 V = 8 Watt. Taken generator/rectifier efficiency into account, It will be even higher. During this time, 145g of water was converted into steam at 3.5 Bar.

Approx. 40% of this power will be available at the tender hook. Choose a desired scale speed at indicated turbine speed and you are able to calculate the required reduction gear and resulting hook force.

Facit: building a successful gauge one PRR - S2 is absolutely feasible!

Cheers Werner


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Werner,

That will be one beautiful, challenging and enjoyable project I am sure.

I look forward to lurking in this thread. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Wow Werner: This is impressive indeed I bet it will be more successful than the prototype! I wish I had your talent, but as the boys in the Count Basie band used to say there is "the tempo di learno"- a rythm where you can learn at your own pace... Makes me want to get back to my mikado tank again.
Cheers, Simon


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

*Progress Report*

Hello all,

The project is coming along nicely! Last week, the loco skeleton pulled a few B&O Cincinnatian coaches! Steaming was insufficient (cool weather and partially blocked gas jets).

Comments to the attachments (I'm too dumb to place the pictures inside the text!) :

Progress 1: It moves ! Front bogie partially lifting up.

Progress 2: PRR S2 skeleton with the "Cincinnatian"

Progress 3: Loco running on left-over steam. Next step: make rear bogie.

Cheers Werner


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Werner;

Amazing! Thank you for sharing the photos.

I have a DVD with a brief segment including sound showing the N&W's Jawn Henry passing by on a test run. The sound from the locomotive resembles a hurricane. The Pennsy locomotives were gear driven (as opposed to electric), so I suppose that their sound was even more intense.

Best wishes,
David Meashey


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Amazing work, Werner!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
A friend just told me of your build. Did you post any photos of the turbine engine build. I would love to see them if you have them.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Bill,

In the up-comming issue of "Garden Railways" (Kalmbach Publishing) will an article about my previous project, the LMS Turbomotive. In there will be a description of the locomotive and several pictures of the turbine drive (provided the editor does not throw them out). The new PRR-S2 drive is basically the same, but has two 0.8mm steam nozzels instead of one and a better turbine rotor (lost wax bronze casting). Let me know your e-mail address and I'll send you more detailed information (the limited file size for forum attachments is bothersome!).

Werner


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Bill,
Based on the email contact we had in the interim I understand that the boilers you have built are able to supply all the steam necessary to runn the two 0.8 nozzels of my PRR-S2 drive. To help you (and possibly others) decide on any such future projects, I have uploaded a serie of pictures to flickr and give it a try with the corresponding links below.

Werner

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31119332870/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/30681796733/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31344274882/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31375176751/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31375266921/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31491134255/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31344729582/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/31375131571/in/dateposted-public/


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Yes Werner
They came through
The first one didn't work but the others did
In the future, I believe you only need to supply a link to one photo and then one can move back and forth to access the others.
I think you said the turbine turns at 30,000 RPM. Even though it is very small. wouldn't it need to be perfectly balanced to keep from vibrating at that speed? 
And, what is the final reduction ratio?
My friend David built a small steam turbine loco a while back. I will check with him to see his design.
Thanks


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear all,

A year has gone by and it is time to report on the progress of the project. It gets along quite well - see for yourself:






regards Werner


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Jaw dropping impressive!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
Congratulations on a very successful run.
I am amazed at the speed and power of the engine
Judging by the exhaust plume, it looks like it is using a lot of steam.
Was it able to maintain the high speed for extended periods?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Remarkable feat of bring to gauge 1 this locomotive. Just finished the video and thought I would introduce the link but already the membership has become aware of the accomplishment!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
One other thing
It looks like you have two forward and one reverse ports...is that right?
Also, do you have a photo of the exhaust cover
How many degrees does the steam travel before exhausting
Is there a ball bearing on the exhaust cover?
How is the exhaust cover attached/sealed
Did you take step by step photos of the impeller construction?


Well maybe more than one other thing
Thanks for posting.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Wunderbar!

I love the sound of the turbine spooling up.

Very impressive indeed.

~Joe


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Absolutely stunning Werner! 

Without doubt an engineering and building accomplishment!

What kind of burners are you using?

Perhaps you could sell the design to Aster? They probably have customers that would be willing to pay a premium for such an unusual and interesting model.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

bille1906 said:


> Werner
> Congratulations on a very successful run.
> I am amazed at the speed and power of the engine
> Judging by the exhaust plume, it looks like it is using a lot of steam.
> Was it able to maintain the high speed for extended periods?


Hello Bill,
The run shown lasted about three quarter of an hour, Boiler topping up 2 times (as I remember). no restriction on speed.

Werner


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill.



bille1906 said:


> Werner
> One other thing
> It looks like you have two forward and one reverse ports...is that right?
> Also, do you have a photo of the exhaust cover
> ...


1. correct, can be seen on the first turbine picture

2. no, I'll take one next time I disassemble the turbine. But there are slots just opposite the inlet ports leading to the common exhaust pipe. The steam flow has to be kept as laminary as possible. Then, there will be an under-pressure inside the turbine casing.

3. 140°

4. no

5. slide fit, secured by one M1.4 screw.

6. no 

regards Werner


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Pauli said:


> Absolutely stunning Werner!
> 
> Without doubt an engineering and building accomplishment!
> 
> ...


Hello Pauli,

There are 2 Bunsen burners in 2 separate, but communicating combustion chambers. Jet size 0.2mm dia.

Werner


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was going to say that it looked like the main body had a bearing on each side, so the end of the shaft going into the exhaust cover did not need a bearing.

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Judging by the exhaust plume, it looks like it is using a lot of steam.


More likely it was a cool damp day in Switzerland. Not the kind of day you find in California!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

So there is life outside of California ???


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I was going to say that it looked like the main body had a bearing on each side, so the end of the shaft going into the exhaust cover did not need a bearing.
> 
> Greg


Gentlemen,

The stub is only needed to balance the wheel properly.

Werner


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
You have inspired me
Is it possible to get the dimensions of the turbine fans
Outside diameters and length of the fwd and reverse fans
I think I remember you saying the ports were .8. I assume that is .8 mm
It looks like you used brass or bronze for the fans. Did you not use aluminum because of the expansion factor?
Thanks


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

bille1906 said:


> Werner
> You have inspired me
> Is it possible to get the dimensions of the turbine fans
> Outside diameters and length of the fwd and reverse fans
> ...


Hello Bill,

You have the choice between the old method and the newer one, which is used on the PRR S2. I'll send you the deskriptive files by email (this forum cannot handle even medium size file attachments).

Werner 

Werner


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Werner
I got them
I think I may be able to post them here if you want


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Werner:
I was hoping to get some news from the French group that went to Switzerland this year but nil... This video does more than that and I am amazed at the progress made since last July. It is trully a magnificent acheivement and an impressive undertaking. If I were the Aster, Acucraft or Wuhu people I would contact you to see how such a model could be produced! But the beauty of scratch building is of having that engine which nobody else has...
Keep up the fantastic job you are doing with this.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Amazing locomotive! Fantastic piece of engineering. I never would have thought you could get that much power out of such a small turbine or make enough steam to run it.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

*PRR S2 Final Report*

Hello all,

My PRR-S2 has drawn to a close (more or less). The result can be seen on a video taken 3 weeks ago at the EIWI Bahndammfest 2018 in Witterswil/Switzerland. Here it is:






Hope you like it ! Werner


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
Looks and runs wonderfully
What turbine bearing setup and lubrication system did you end up with?


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Werner, ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL you must be very proud, Thank you. LiG


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Werner. Beautiful engine and a great runner. 

Thank you, Bob


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Congratulations again Werner for finnishing this very elaborate model. Showing again your mastery of the turbine drive for locomotives.
I was very happy and fortunate to be there at EIWI and to see all this in real life. Those J & M cars are massively heavy. With some lightweight easy going Accucraft or David Leech cars she could haul at least 12.
Best, Simon


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Bill,
Turbine wheel side: 3x7x2.5mm, hybrid, open.
Gear side: 2x6x2.5mm, hybrid, shielded
Squirt of WD40 prior to each run and relying on the wet, non saturated steam to provide some lubrication during the run.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

So Ceramic Hybrid bearings
Is the open one so you can squirt it with WD40
Have you tried steam oil in the system ?


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

No, it is an open one to save width. Inside the turbine casing it is not necessary to protect it with a shield. And I strongly advise against using steam oil. It will gum up the turbine.

Werner


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

This loco needs better than WD-40, that stuff does not lube, it was designed for electrical work to Displace Water, formula #40.


I use this on my truck because it contains Lube...


https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/sea-foam-spray-cleaner-and-lube-12-oz-ss14/99984969-P


I think it will offer wear protection.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

This is a discussion Werner and I have had in the past in private emails.
I too have had problems with WD40 but is there a pure lubricant in spray form that could replace it?

I believe they make a zero wt, synthetic oil. Perhaps that could be used in a spray bottle ???

The one John mentions could do the trick but it seems it has a lot of other chemicals besides the lube.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Perhaps;


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Not sure about that but I found this by CRC which sounds interesting
Would like to get any thoughts on the subject.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000P1E7ZS/ref=psdc_552518_t4_B0013J62O0


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

This is an alternative, food grade isn't a bad thing if it gets on your fingers ...
It's designed for metal on metal lube ...


https://www.webstaurantstore.com/al...ol-food-grade-machine-oil-14-oz/AP851138.html




Looking at the CRC, it contains teflon and the above doesn't, otherwise very similar.
I'd go with the pump sprayer, but that's the eco nut in me.
I've bookmarked it for when my Sea Foam spay runs out....


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

*Turbine lubrication*

Gentlemen, 
Thank you for all the good advise. But - at present lubrication is not my problem. WD 40 works very well, and together with unsaturated steam the bearings are doing alright! My problem is how to get more heat into the boiler and find out why the friction losses inside the loco have increased.

Werner


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry for interrupting Werner, I love watching you build.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

*PRR S2 up and running again.*

Gentlemen,
The PRR-S2 is up and running again! See short video clip.







regards Werner


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Werner, I love watching your beautiful creation run. LiG


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thank you for showing us the finished model, she's a beauty and like her inspiration a bit over powered.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Werner
Looks great 
Lots of power and acceleration

Does the boiler keep up with it?

What upgrades have you done since the last running?


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the flowers. Now, about being overpowered - that's absolutely not thru! Even a slight, prolonged grade will stop the train. The secret of successful operation on flat tracks lies in minimising the friction losses in engine and coaches. My present project is to double the power output of the turbine. This is not a question of the wheel only, It includes the whole system. Target is a shaft power of 10W. I reached this value already once in a test setup - so I know it is possible.

The wheel installed as seen in the latest video is an old one, of the two 0.8dia jets, one is blocked off and the overall performance is still OK! This proves, that the steam behaviour inside the turbine is chaotic, producing positive and negative torques at the same time. According to engineering science, one impulse turbine stage is able to handle a pressure drop of 0.8 Bar while retaining a laminary (non turbulent) flow - and we are working with 3.5 Bar! To me, building a multistage model turbine for gauge 1 locos is out of question. So, I have to make the best out of chaos.

regards Werner


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Sounds like a fun project...going where no one has before
You are the renowned expert on the subject so You should be able to get there
I wish you were closer so i could work with you on it
Good luck


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

"Oh Sam (Werner), what a beauty!"

Some folk will know where that quote comes from....

Well done Werner, I look forward to seeing it in the flesh next year.

Graham.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Gentlemen,
Anybody interested in the subject might have a look at the Model Engineering Website 

https://www.modelengineeringwebsite.com/Pennsylvania_turbine_loco_1.html 

and the follow-ups. 

regards Werner


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Werner Jeggli said:


> Gentlemen,
> Anybody interested in the subject might have a look at the Model Engineering Website
> 
> https://www.modelengineeringwebsite.com/Pennsylvania_turbine_loco_1.html
> ...


Thank you for sharing, really interesting and I am envious of your modeling skills


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## Rob Preston (Feb 13, 2021)

Werner Jeggli said:


> Dear all,
> With my live steam LMS Turbomotive running satisfactorily, I'm open to a new modelling chalenge. The logical step would be - as it was in real life - a go at the Pennsy S2 Steam Turbine Locomotive.
> My Turbomotive turbine shaft power output is approx. 4 to 5 Watt. The Pennsy S2 would require 7 to 8 Watt. I've tried to improve the efficiency of my turbine - no success. American outline locomotives have much larger boilers than th British ones. By designing and building a more efficient boiler I should be able to produce the necessary steam to reach the required shaft power output.
> 
> ...


Hi
Just a question regarding the PRR - S2 .
I believe I read some time ago that someone had made a working direct drive steam turbine locomotive in I think 5inch gauge? does anyone else recall this?
Regarding drawing for the PPR-S2 locomotive would there still be the original drawing still in existence?
I believe there may have been an artricale published on the PPR-S2 ether in the Engineer or Engineering.
If this is the case then they would have produced detailed drawings of the propulsion system.
Any comments are welcome

Rob


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## Rob Preston (Feb 13, 2021)

Werner Jeggli said:


> *PRR S2 Final Report*
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> ...


Hi
This is stunning. what is the speed of the turbine and what is the gear reduction 
Did you have any of the original drawings?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Rob Preston


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Rob,
Let me have your email address and I'll send you the link to my One Drive files. You then have to print and paste them together to have the whole drawings as initially included in "The Keystone, Vol.45, No.3 of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society. (I haven't found out yet on how to send private messages within the frame of this Forum)
Werner


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## Rob Preston (Feb 13, 2021)

Werner Jeggli said:


> Hello Rob,
> Let me have your email address and I'll send you the link to my One Drive files. You then have to print and paste them together to have the whole drawings as initially included in "The Keystone, Vol.45, No.3 of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society. (I haven't found out yet on how to send private messages within the frame of this Forum)
> Werner


Hi Werner. Thanks for the reply thgis is my email [email protected]
Look forward to hearing from you and Thanks Regards Rob


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## Korbin (May 23, 2021)

Hello, I was wondering if you know of any place that has the drawings and labeling for the cab and controls of the S2? My virtual modeling group has run into a dead end with the cab and we are searching everywhere and still cannot find anything. To try and make a faithful recreation of the famous loco for Train Simulator we are leaving no stone unturned.


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## Werner Jeggli (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Korbin,
I got all my information from the Keystone Publication, as mentioned previously. In there is only a picture of the PRR-S2 backhead. Detailing it will be a daunting task! You have surely contacted the PRR Historical Society I presume. Regards Werner


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## Korbin (May 23, 2021)

Would you by chance know or understand how the reversing function on this locomotive originally functioned?


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## fkrutzke (Jan 24, 2008)

Korbin said:


> Would you by chance know or understand how the reversing function on this locomotive originally functioned?


Taken from a description on Wikipedia

Two turbines were fitted, one for forward travel and a smaller one for reversing at speeds up to 22 mph (35 km/h). Compressed steam at a rate of about 2,000 miles per hour was injected onto the turbine blades through 4 nozzles; thousands of turbine blades transmitted steam energy to the transmission gear. The maximum rotation speed of the forward turbine is 9000 rpm, developing 6,900 hp; the reverse turbine generates 1500 hp at 8300 rpm.


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