# Are ASTER Engines "finicky".



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

In another topic there is a comment that Aster Engines are known to be "finicky."









I have not know this to be the case.  I have seen people that seem to put more enery into operation of Aster engines than I do.  I personally believe they are good reliable engines that are easy to run.  I have three and all run "just like a Roundhouse."   My first five live steam engines were Roundhouse engines.

I now have three Aster engines.  Two are coal fired which were converted by John Shawe and one is the alcohol fired P8.

All are great running engines.  

All I do is follow the operating instructions provided and steam away.  









I started this thread to see if those that had finicky engines might comment on their problems and how they may have solved the problems.









DAYoung


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Dave; 

In short and sweet, NO! 

Sure, every engine has it's quirks, but that's the nature of the hobby. Aster are reliable, rock solid engines, which of course is proven by the 30 sum-odd years they have been in the hobby...not that I am biased in any way, shape or form..


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

All depends how one defines, "finicky"
As denoted regards an exacting standard, well then yes to the nearest degree of a fully functional mass produced engine(s) on the market.
As to fussy, see Ryan's comments.
As to scale, YES- Aster offers in the recent years 1:32 standard gauge that I believe has forced all others manufacturers to aspire to become.
As to squeamish....that's a matter of opening one's wallet.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

For me the answer is not really a yes or no.  

Allow me to explain:  I dabbled briefly in the world of Aster snobbery.  I owned a W. M. Shay for a couple years.  It always ran great.  The gearing was a bit tall for my liking, especially since I didn't have a rake of fifty 1/32 scale cars for it to pull.  So I would describe getting the right throttle setting to be a "finicky" process.  I also didn't run it often enough to get the hang of managing the axle pump bypass.  I always was either getting low on water or adding too much water.  So for me that was also a bit finicky.  Apart from that she was a smooth runner.  I probably never gave it the effort that a true aster enthusiast would.  

For my infrequent running schedule-- and due to the fact that I often run at public events, the "set it and forget it" nature of my Accucraft Shay was more suited to me.  I also feel that (for me) the more sophisticated features such as blowers, axle pumps, bypasses, etc. are better limited to live steamers that I can RIDE.

In the end I sold it, partially because I decided it was better to stick to 1:20.3 scale (and larger), and partially because I didn't have the attention span for it.  I happen to know that it went to a good home and it does get run.  This shows that the very things that I disliked about my Aster are the same things that make some people love em'.   The moral of the story is that I was able to find out through first hand experience that I am not an Aster snob.

Regards,

Eric


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric
Not putting words in your mouth but my surmise of your brief:
_I also feel that (for me) the more sophisticated features such as blowers, axle pumps, bypasses, etc. are better limited to live steamers that_ I spend time with.

Thereby indicating that Aster like "ride ons" need a bit more operational attention thus nearer to the reality of running a real live steam 1:1 and less like a sparky type steam experience.
I enjoy my sparky type gas fired engines, my more advance alcohol fired engines and the ultimate of coal fired.  Like some in the other half of the hobby would say: Do not like live steam too finicky.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I haven't seen nor run all that many different brands of engines, but I think "I" am much more finicky /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif and unreliable /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif in operation than my Aster Mikes.  I ran one Roundhouse (a Sammy, I seem to remember), 1 time, and I'd have to say the gas valve was "touchy" (Oh! Horrors!, gasp! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif), and it was about the same level of "touchy" as the gas valve on the Ruby I have run and the 3-cyl Shay I have seen run several times.  And the more I have seen those run, the less "touchy" the gas valves seem to be.

The only thing "finicky" about my Asters is that I need to make sure the loco is "level" when firing up. I used to belong to a ride-on-scale club and I took my new Mike there to show it off.  The only place I could put the treadmill I had made for it was on a door laying over some sawhorses out in a grassy area and it was not at all level. Just could not get it to steam, did some "field dissassembly" (much to the horror of the onlookers... "You got guts taking that 'watch' apart in the field!"). But it was watching the screwdriver roll to the end of the "table" that made me think of leveling the treadmill!  Then it ran great! ... Tee hee, everybody thought I was great at "field repairs"!!!!!

"Finicky"? No way!


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 02/28/2008 10:42 AM


I started this thread to see if those that had finicky engines might comment on their problems and how they may have solved the problems.









DAYoung

 Seems the question was some what missed, and there was a rush to defend Aster.

  Has anyone had a "finicky" problem with an Aster and can share a solution????

 I agree Asters are probably the best live steam gauge one engines made. But, for example, I can think of atleast 5 Berk owners with very rough  first (and more) runs with the Berks. They were all solved, but for some reason some problems and solutions were never posted here...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif

  They can be anything from the wick setting (if you call it that), to axel pumps, insulation, etc. This is NOT to put Asters down, but I think here is valuable info out there that does not get shared for some reason.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

My experience is that Asters are rather race horses. They are fast runners and like a load to keep them in check. This is a good thing. The workings are generally scale and do not particularly like grades, unlike Roundhouse with over sized cylinders. The first aster I had had a bad gas filler value that I did not know about for several years. The WM shay has problems reading te water glass. After 1000s hours the Hudson needed some maintenance on the water pump. 

In short if I want a no care run, the Accucraft mogul is set and go. If I want the full experience, drag out all the cars and watch the aster go, whlie making sure 
that all is well. If that is finicky, then I suppose it is. 
jim o


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Rose on 02/28/2008 1:07 PM
Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 02/28/2008 10:42 AM


I started this thread to see if those that had finicky engines might comment on their problems and how they may have solved the problems.









DAYoung

 Seems the question was some what missed, and there was a rush to defend Aster.

  Has anyone had a "finicky" problem with an Aster and can share a solution????

 I agree Asters are probably the best live steam gauge one engines made. But, for example, I can think of atleast 5 Berk owners with very rough  first (and more) runs with the Berks. They were all solved, but for some reason some problems and solutions were never posted here...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif

  They can be anything from the wick setting (if you call it that), to axel pumps, insulation, etc. This is NOT to put Asters down, but I think here is valuable info out there that does not get shared for some reason.


I can't think of anything "finicky" that is peculiar to an Aster locomotive.  Maybe peculiar to an alcohol fired engine (the levelness requirement), but that is not specifically an Aster attribute.

ALL of the little problems I have seen, seem to be associated with ANY brand of loco... most all being learning curve problems with the operator. Many problems (ANY brand, not just Aster) can be "cured" (maybe) by minor/major re-engineering of some part or other, but can also be cured simply by the user being a bit more attentive to procedures.

Example:  Many gas fired locos have very touchy gas valves.  Sometimes just touching... NOT actually intentionally moving... the valve stem can affect the fuel setting.  This is caused by loose fitting threads and maybe a bit of dirt in the valve seat.  It can be cured by redesigning the valve some way or other... either replaceing the stem and body with finer and closer fitting threads, or a spring behind the stem to hold it tighter against one end of the slop.  But it can also be cured by the user understanding the looseness and thus being careful when touching the knob that they don't wiggle it, especially when letting go.

Sometimes the finickyness is really attributable to the weather!  Some days it is easy to fire up and other days I can't seem to keep the fire in the firebox... yeah, how much wind was there and from which direction? That is not an Aster finickyness.

I spent close to two years playing with different types of wick material... stainless steel mesh, fire brick, fiberglass ribbon, etc. not because "I" was having problems, but because EVERYBODY else was recommending something different because "it's better". I gave up and went back to the original yarn stuff that Aster provided and have been running that way ever since (5 years?) with no problems.  I never blow them out, I just shut off the fuel (or rather I run out of fuel after an hour or so) and they don't seem to be affected by any glazing or anything. I have never had to do any "fine tuning" or twiddling with the wicks... I cut them to length and packed the number in each cup that the instructions said to do.  They work fine... could they be better?... dunno, they work okay so I don't know what could be "better".

Ooo ooo oo! Wait!!!! Hold the presses!!!!

I remember something I had to do to my first engine... I could not get the alcohol to shut all the way off, it would slowly drip alcohol no matter how hard I tightened the valve. I called the Aster Dealer and he said to turn the shoulder on the stem back a little bit using a lathe.  I did so and that cured the problem.  I did it to my second Mike before I started assembly, just because, not due to any known problem with it... it may not have needed it, but I knew it wouldn't hurt. But then, is that an Aster "finicky" problem?  I don't think so.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
Regards the Berkshire, check the archive files related to "problems:"
You know John I think you hit the nail on the head. I did have the safetys blowing alot. Maybe the level really is low! After I got done steaming I blew down the boiler into a measuring spray bottle and only had about 1/2 what I put in, but a lot got lost as steam out the top of the bottle. My original pump was bad,leaked so much no water would get to the boiler. Hans sent me a new piston and all seems well. He also sent the upgrade banjo, but implied it was not always necessary, so I did not put it in yet(i guess now is the time!)
Anyway thanks for pointing out the obvious. I will trim my wicks. SA#221
Ct. Valley Lumber and Mining Co. Mine does the same thing.







 Mike - then lower the fire. There are two easy ways to do that. The first is to put a small tube over the chicken feed vent at the bottom of the tank. Cut it off exactly in the shape the metal tube has. Lower the tube 1/8 inch or so, so that less alcohol gets into the chicken feed tank. That will lower the fire. If you have a kit, there is extra tubing from making the tender/engine feed tube. That tube is perfect. I ended up lowering the tube maybe 1/4 in or so.

The second method is to pack more wicks into the burners. That slows down the alcohol from reaching the fire, also lowering the heat output.

I ended up doing both. 

John

There is a 5 page MLS posting on the Berkshire, in which axle pump, wicks, sight glass, solutions are discussed.  Hans posted an update to Aster owners about axle pump along with numerous updates might have resolved the necessary situaitons, thus not discussed here..


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Rose on 02/28/2008 1:07 PM
 
Seems the question was some what missed, and there was a rush to defend Aster.

But, for example, I can think of atleast 5 Berk owners with very rough  first (and more) runs with the Berks. They were all solved, but for some reason some problems and solutions were never posted here...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif

  They can be anything from the wick setting (if you call it that), to axel pumps, insulation, etc. This is NOT to put Asters down, but I think here is valuable info out there that does not get shared for some reason.



Dave,
So far I haven't seen anyone blatantly defend aster, rather note that it is more operator/builder induced error than everything else.  Nothing is fool proof

Some fixes are not worth mentioning, because they can be entirley specific to that one engine.  Most of the errors I have found with the Berk were a) operator error and b) construction error, mostly in the wick department. 

All meths fired engines require a certain finesse that the set it and forget it steamers seem to overlook.  Also, you are forgetting that the Berk was a new engine for most people, and these machines take time to "bed in" with regards to the close tolerances on the valvegear and gland seals.  Wicks also take time to season as the characteristics of fired and un-fired ceramic yarn and brick are different.  Usually after 2-3 runs the engine settles in for the long haul...think of it as a break in period for a car, keep it under a certain rpm and no hard pushing.  Not like the  A______t engines which are built to very poor tolerances by comparison, but this is *not* a topic of which is better.  

Axle pumps are load and speed dependent, and the bypass valves are usually on an on-off basis due to the geometry of the needle taper.  Insulation is a new one,  so long as you follow the basic rules of sealing up the smokebox (no big open holes, etc) small air leaks (1.5mm or less are more than acceptable.  A extremely well sealed smokebox will require no blower when running, no matter what speed.  the exhaust is just enough to keep a small sq cm of air passing through the firebox.  If the engine needs a tremondus amount of blower at slow speed, there is either a draughting problem or the wicks need to be shortened and loosened.  Loose creates a cooler fire, similar to a car running rich, keeps the safety margin optimal.  Shorter is just like a pariffin (kerosene) lamp, you expirment, shortening little by little until the optimum is reached.  Again, what works for one season and set of parmeters (load, weather, etc) may not ork for another.  There is no universal fix for every engine, as each one has differences. 

Lastly, I am fairly sure the number of owners you state having problems with their berks were either sheepish, or didn't think that the fixes needed to be placed on here.  Fixes travel more by word of mouth than by word of...finger, so to speak.  

If you'd like, I'll send you my 10 page book of notes that encompass all the little fixes I found to the numerous engines that have "passed forth on yonder work bench-ith".  Most people would stop after they read "tear the engine down to the bare frame and rebuild" I might note, that is on engines with and without manuals!  

P.S.

I'm sure that this isn't the only company with a few quirks on engines...no names mentioned, but they do have a delivery issue at times, and the QC leaves a bit to be desired.  That is all.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

There's no such thing as a bad Aster ( well except for the pot boilered 0-6-0 of 1980!), just bad Aster runners. Like all live steamers with pedigree you have to pay attention and little engines are harder (finickier) to run than larger ones. The secret of an Aster is to give it a prototypical length train to make it work for its living, if you do that it will reward you in bucketfulls. 

David M-K 
Ottawa


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Odd. 
I am guessing none of you has had a C&S Mogul. 
Nor had to rebuild the fuel system. 
I got mine because the previous owner had burned his fingers for the last time. 
Some were fine, some were not. 
Counting on the "vapourization chamber" to produce gas from liquid was a bit odd, I guess. 
I do believe the most "fireball" awards went to Mogul owners. 

I speak from experience, and while looking at my Mogul.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

In the finicky league tables I put my Catatonk Shay way ahead of the pack. Curses, blasphemy and burned fingers are necessary pre-requisites for coaxing it into life!

I pride myself of having no 'shelf queens' amongst my fairly large collection of Asters. My top four tips for avoiding problems are:

1. Proper packing of the the burner wicks - it is really an art to get this right and the best starting point is to follow the build instructions to the letter. I admire people who build burners from stainless steel mesh, ceramic tiles or dried seaweed, but I've always found the wicks that Aster supply are just fine.

2. Smoke box and fire box are well sealed to ensure a good draft. Sealing the firebox helps reduce the "hunting" that can happen when the draft fails and there is still some alcohol in the system.

3. Good quality 'meths' or de-natured alcohol free of water. An increasing problem to find this in the US....

4. Bits of silicone or other junk in the axle pump preventing the balls from sealing. 

In general, I find the Asters no more difficult than anything else that I have. Yes they have their moments, but they are real, live working steam engines!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the jokes around my track is how a lot of folks claim that you cant make Asters run slow.  The Asters that run often at my house are: Mikados, Berk, P8, Daylight, BB, Frank S, BR 03, Flying Scotsman and a couple of Reno's.  All owned by different people running on all three fuels: Butane, Alcohol, and Coal. All except the Reno's can run as slow as you want them to around the track with or without a load. For some reason, the Renos seem to be jack rabbits /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif.  If you want the absolute best control over your engine install a Dx 6 radio.  Most Asters have "touchy" throttles and because of the fine adjustments that can be made with these radios it will open up a whole new experience with running these engines. You can literally make them crawl.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I feel slightly guilty for setting off this discussion. I have ample critisism on Aster kits, but that is a slightly different matter.

It somehowseems to have eluded the readers, that my other Aster P8 thread actually is a very positive account on the performance  characteristics of my completed Aster P8 kit.

With ample heat and steam generation, and a VERY smoth running machinery, setting off along the track at low pressure - without even the normal initial manual nudge - thus stunning the surprised driver (me)!  In my view, smoth machinery and enough power, facilitate extremely slow driving. My engine obviously has that. And I'm counting on changing the notion among Stockholm Livesteamers, that Asters are somewhat "finicky" to drive.

However, after building the Aster kit, I'm even more convinced, I would never quite trust a factory to build a smooth running engine. In general, I would expect a hobbyist taking his (unpayed) time to build, should make an exellent job of filing and fitting parts to assemble an engine. I would not be surprised if some factory assembled Asters aren't smoth running enough, to be able to crawl along the track - without load!

With Aster kits, this fitting of parts, seems extremely important (much, much more so than for a Regner kit). And this is my critisism; There seems to be no thought through philosophy of tollerances in design and manufacturing of Aster parts / engines. It is so blatandly ill thought through or tried out, that it takes a lot of knowledge and time to be able to assemble a kit correctly. It is true that one does not need a lathe or such to complete an Aster kit, wich makes for a very nice sort of kit. BUT - assembly requires one to be a seasoned mechanic, with experience and knowlidge. Or you might actually end up with an engine that almost wont run at all. A collegue of mine (a dentist by profession), has built 4 kits. The first 2 really don't run at all - because he trusted the parts coming from Aster to be correct, too much. (he also claims to have received a factory built engine for service, where inlet/ outlet of waterpipes for the axle pump, had been reversly mounted. He states "I'm not impressed by Aster factory assembly standards")

I am really stunned by the lack of thought through philosophy of tollerances in design and manufacturing of Aster parts and general layout, based on my experience with the P8 / BR38 kit. It really cannot be described, even mildly, as anything but poor engineering, but at times it amounts to downright faulty engineering. I myself, would not have accepted many aspects of the design. It's not about large changes, it's merely implementation. 

Not that it's that important, but should it not be possible to cut down the number of types of screws etc employed in each design?!? Using M1,7 for fastening headlights is downright silly. 1) M1,7 is generally to be avoided, as a rare exceptional thread 2) there are no mechanical reasons for this extremely odd choice. (Considering that livesteam engines actually have a life expectancy of maybee 100 years(!), beeing passed on to future generations, this seems like a nice consideration; Don't make future spare parts an unnessessary difficult matter.

The lack of thought through philosophy of tollerances is even more surprising, since Aster themselves are going to assemble a lot of RTR engines. As for possible explanations, the P8 model is actually a few years old, I can't help wondering if Aster had not yet adopted 3D CAD drawing, but that doesn't explain everything. Lack of philosophy, and possibly not making 2 prototypes / zero series, are other likely causes. I know this very well, since I personally designed (and patented , manufactured and assembled a mechanical vending machine in a small series of 300 machines last year. The design and manufacturing process would be basically identical.

Having said this, adapting and fitting Aster parts, you will get a wonderful engine, with it's specific Aster flair! Aster really tries to mimick the workings of the prototype to a degree, the other larger manufacturers don't, in my view.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Pauli, I am amazed at the fact that so many parts in your kit were out of toleance.  All the Aster engines that I refer to in my above post were Factory built except for a couple of the Mikados and the Flying Scotsman that were built from kits to be converted to coal.   Even a self proclaimed "Aster Snob" like myself will admit that a "lemon" might get out somtimes.........................but what you say about Aster quality of tolerances, and how poorly RTR's are built just does not make sense.  If you search the old archives for "Steamin" at Steve's"  you will find movie after movie of factory built Asters crawling around my track.  We run them slow all the time to prove that it is no big deal or talent to run them this way.  Sorry that you got one of the ocasional lemons that get out and had to rework it as you built it.  I have been around many Asters engines and have talked to even more people that have built Aster kits and you are the first that I have ever heard such things from.  Hope you get things worked out.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli
"There seems to be no thought through philosophy of tollerances in design and manufacturing of Aster parts / engines. It is so blatandly ill thought through or tried out, that it takes a lot of knowledge and time to be able to assemble a kit correctly. It is true that one does not need a lathe or such to complete an Aster kit, wich makes for a very nice sort of kit. BUT - assembly requires one to be a seasoned mechanic, with experience and knowlidge. Or you might actually end up with an engine that almost wont run at all."

I have to disagree with your experience and that of your dentist friend as representing Aster products and kit specifically.  Our first Aster Kit was a Berkshire built by a 17 year old in less than 40 hours. It ran smoothly during kit process and has been running successfully ever since.

We have numerous Asters through purchase and most are kits that were built by others all have been excellent performers: WM Shay, GS4, Mikado, K4 etc.  

We also can compare apples to apples relative to tolerances and QC based on two productions of GS4.  Your statement "Aster really tries to mimick the workings of the prototype to a degree, the other larger manufacturers don't, in my view." relates to this comparison.  But I would not describe Aster effortsof the works as a product of mimicking but restricted to scale limitations relative to the real thing.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

@ Steve; It may well be that the P8 / BR38 design incorporates more designflaws in clearance, tollerances and such, than other Aster models. Aparently, no model since the P8 has had such ill manufactured valve gear. It is not possible to make the valve gear operate correctly on most P8's. 

@ Charles I'm not sure we understand each other, the close mimicking is supposed to be a compliment on Aster. 

I am truly surprised a 17 year old could (had the luck?) assemble an Aster kit successfully. How complicated an engine was it? Personally, I've wanted an Aster since I was 13 years old, seeing the first Aster Schools class. But, having just completed the P8 successfully at age 45, I think it was a very good thing I never came around buying an Aster kit earlier.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli
If you have the time to read the thread in the section "Informative Thread" sticky:
http://www.santacruzlumberco.com/MLS_PDFs/AsterBerkshireKitBuildingLog01.pdf
*Part A - 1.71mb*
*Part B - 1.47mb*
http://www.santacruzlumberco.com/MLS_PDFs/AsterBerkshireKitBuildingLog02.pdf

Without doubt we would purchase another Aster Kit, as many have which in itself speaks for the excellence of Aster's offering given that kits add to the total cost of production runs but the demand is there otherwise Aster would not make them.

I hope you will come across other opportunity and that the P8 experience will not prohibit, based on that outcome, you from another Aster kit.  That is not to say there are no flaws on the other hand no one does it better in a mass production offering.

As per the characterization of Asters as mimicking; that goes to GS4 comparison.  The Accucraft valve gear mimics the real thing (non functional) where as Aster's valve gear actual allows for notching back.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, the P8 that Dave runs on my track might just be one of the very "Best" running engines (this includes Roundhouse, Accucraft, Catatonks, and Regners that run here too) that has ever run on my track.  Please do not take what I say next as offensive:  After reading about  your making of your own suction fan (with problems) instead of getting a Aster fan,  using a different wick system other then what comes with most P8's (that may have been Aster's fault),  adjusting the height of the alcohol tank, spraying your engine down with a mildly corrosive extinguisher,  and now all the claims of faulty design, and fitting of parts I am beginning to think that you might be like me..................and should buy RTR. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif  To state that RTR's and kits  that leave Aster are not up to par is just nonsense.  I have already stated that an occasional  lemon might get through, even Aster is human. But to make it sound like RTR's  are problems getting ready to happen  is a weak statement, every RTR that runs on my track runs perfect.  Like I said, I am not trying to bash you,  but what you are saying is just not holding up  as to what  99%  of other Aster owners experience.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Pauli, talking about ASTER RTR and KITS, speaking with Hans the other day, he let me know that out of the entire production for each engine, usually 10% are RTR and the rest, 90%, are kits. So, I believe that it is more possible that the reason some engine work better than others is the fact that we all have different skills to assemble the Aster engines, and some engines require more experience. 
I , myself, rather spend a little more and buy the RTR, since I have not any experince in assembling such engines, especially the Berkshire and the coming S2.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 02/28/2008 10:42 AM


In another topic there is a comment that Aster Engines are known to be "finicky."










DAYoung

Well Dave I had to reply to this since Steve did.  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif    The answer depends on whether you got one of the Aster Disasters or not.  Like the Reno or the C&S Mogul.  

But seriously, as I see it, Asters are race horses and they like nice level track such as we run on at Steve's.  They are excellent machines, smooth runners and of course you can run them slow or fast(but they don't pump enough water when you run them too slow).  But I would not call them finicky.  When you come to my house you bring the Roundhouse with radio control remember.    As I have said before, if you want to 'operate' as in run a way freight, switch cars, struggle up grades, take sidings to meet other trains, or anything else a real railroad does, you probably want a Roundhouse or an Accucraft and with RC.  I haven't seen any 'on the ground' operating railroads dominated by Aster locomotives.  They just are not designed for that.  

I run my BR03 at Steve's and enjoy it.  But, just like you, I have never even tried to put it in reverse.  I don't feel like messing with a screw reverse and what's the point anyway.  It's a passenger engine designed for speed.

jf


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli:

With all the respect I can muster, I have to ask,

What planet are you from?

What are you smokin'?

How can you have tried to fire your locomotive after you have obviously consumed all the alcohol yourself?



I, myself, am also "stunned", but only at your comments, not at any sort of Aster's "philosophy".


In a desperate attempt to salvage some semblance of sanity here, I will admit that there are some folk who should not be allowed to touch (or even see) a screwdriver.  I have seen the result of a kit assembly (NOT an Aster!) by such a person and it was quite disturbing to say the least.  But I would never blame the kit manufacturer for the total lack of mechanical aptitude of the one doing the assembly. (If he'd done those things to an Aster, I'd be locked up now/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif!)

Please don't take this as belittling the one with little mechanical aptitude, we all have areas where we excel and others where we are severely lacking... I am a computer programmer and, not to break my arm patting myself on the back, I am quite good at it,/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif but present me with an insurance contract and my eyes glaze over and I want to shrivel to a pinpoint and dissappear./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif  My Brother-in-law, on the other hand, revels in insurance contracts, but his secretary uses the computer!

I have assembled two Aster kits and found them to be exceedingly EASY... maybe I have more mechanical aptitude than others... well I have to refute that, I purchased a lathe and mill (Hey, if I can assemble a kit, maybe I can make all the parts myself, too!).  I have found that I cannot create two parts that have any semblance of similarity at all.  I have tried, *TRIED*! to make two wheels of the same diameter and when they are mounted on the self same axle they will not roll in a straight line!  Can you imagine a 4-8-4 with all the wheels of differing diameters???? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif  A "machinist" I am NOT, but I guess I can assemble an Aster kit.



To those reading this thread:

I don't know how to advise you as to whether YOU can "successfully" assemble an Aster kit.  I have trouble assembling a "Snap-tite" (tm) model car or airplane, so that cannot be a test to try before you make the big-bucks expenditure for an Aster.  I have trouble determining orientation of parts in "3-D" drawings, (is that a "dimple" or a "bump"? is that part in front of, or behind, that other part?) so that cannot be a limiting factor either.

As to whether Aster can assemble their own kit... well, if "I" can successfully put one together, I cannot believe that Aster can't do so also!


I think I am going to shut up now and go do my leap-day thing and run an Aster Mike.... if I can find the track under that 48 inches of snow!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Let us lay to rest another Aster myth: cannot do switching/yard work.  For 2.5 hours one of the oldest, earliest Aster Moguls was utilized to setup the reefer block and change the caboose.  The engine was under steam throughout the running session:









Secondly, our prior ground layout had a good challenge to any engine with a bit of grades and ballast that make the engines "rock and roll:"




























Many years of running a ground layout during with Asters were a part of the running sessions.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

The more knobs to turn, the closer the smells, the louder the chug, the more I LIKE! I love machines and anything making them more realistic the more fun it is to me. 

I had my Aster Lion(0-4-2) it at the 7.5" Florida Ridge G scale track last week and I was getting semi gutsy and found out the lion can out run me in speed (18 foot curves) (I wouldn't try faster, no way lolol). It can also pull 16 of those Accucraft coal cars, will post the video shortly. With any live steam engine, your the engineer and you get to tinker this is also part of the fun. Also by the sound the engine is making, you can tell what is wrong if the loco is havng a problem.

All the steam engines I have and played with all have a certain finesse just like automobiles. 

BTW, Those pictures in the above thread look like a few photo of the month winners!! 

-Andrew


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Please everyone, carefully read what I am saying - I am not "bashing" Aster. 

To begin with, I have stated that the operating skills of the driver tend to be more important, than the manufacturer and model of locomotive.

As for RTR engines, among my collegues here, there seems to be a notion that they are difficult to run slowly without load (which is also what I have seen in real life). But, I am not sure this is actually true. How well you "read" , operate and care for your engine is very important. As for the assembly quality of the small part of (10%?) of production that are sold as RTR, I just quoted my dentist friend "that he was not impressed" by the engines he had undertaken service of. 
On one hand, if only such a small portion of production will be factory assembled, this allows for quite a bit of manual reworking of parts. (In my case, assembling the whole production run of 300 wending machines myself, I really want to keep "tweaking" / fitting individual parts to an absolute minimum.) I would be extremely surprised if Aster did not test their RTR before delivery - so they really are "Ready To Run". 
On the other hand, a not so nice interpretation would be, that since the factory only assembles a fraction of production, they are more prone to deliver kit parts that need adjustment. As for obvious faulty parts, Asters excellent service minimizes the annoyance. And many kit builders may solve the problem themselves. (For example tubing that has been inadvertedly clogged with solder in manufacture. Aster Europe immedietely offered to exchange the parts, but also gave me the tip to heat the tube, and then blow them clean with compressed air - wich proved excellent advice 

Considering the lack of philosophy for tolerances in design, adding at least the variance in manufacturing accuracy, it would only be expected that the assembly and fitting work is decisive for possible engine performance. This means Aster kits call for mechanical skill and experience that really are not common. Supplying a screwdriver is a very nice touch - but mostly a marketing statement that just is not true in my view. Aster kits seem straightforward - but deceptively so - in my view. (The variance in manufacturing valve gear parts for the P8 was quite an issue, but Aster claims to have improved since. However, even with a valve gear that works incorrectly on one side, my engine still runns smoth and well. But of course it should work even better.) To a more reasonably skilled hobbyist, looking for a kit, for the time beeing, I would actually rather recomend Regner.

Based on my experience with the P8 / BR38, I suggest Aster concider the following, if they already have not done so - this model is a few generations / years back!
- Write a different type of assembly manual. As it is now, since the assembly drawings are excellent, the written assebly instructions are 99,9% redundant... ;-) The only good advice I picked up, was the tip to dip your screwdriver i grease to pick up small screws. Now, why did I never think of that myself?!  The written instructions should give guidelines as how different fits should feel and behave. Personally, I want "any wheelaxle to be able to spinn freely, many turns". This type of advice, and so on.
- Please state a design policy on tolerances and clearances. Having the backside of a driving wheel scraping against the springs, with no clearance, is simply poor design.
- Adopt 3D CAD for designwork, if they havent done so yet!?!?!?
-Do adopt normal procedure of 2 prototypes, then initial "zero series", and then final production run. Nowadays, this is feasable economically.
-Personally, I question the use of such a huge variety of screws etc

@ Charles, what I meant by "mimicking", was in relation to the prototype, that is really trying to scale down, in a in a working manner, actual mechanical design. I did not mean "faking", wich is the commonplace procedure. I guess I used the wrong words - English is not my native toungue.

@ Steve; I am using the burner Aster Europe recomends, and supplies extra free of charge. The wick material is the ceramic felt supplied with the kit. To me it seems a step forward compared to cotton wicks.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, please realise that I have screwed up every way possible in this hobby.  Any one that has been around MLS for a while knows that while I might be a "Aster Snob" I am the first to admit my many, many short commings in this hobby.  You might remember reading, or you can ask John Frank about my first Berk fire up /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif.  I learned long ago that I can't nor do I want to ever build a kit.  I could not even put my Daughters toys together /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif.  I do not think that you realize what a good job Aster already does. Perfect......no, but very amazing when you consider the attention they go to, to replicate a protoype as close as possible.  Look at how many different valve gears they have produced. I remember when the Berk came out and they used a more universal phillips head screw for most of the Loco some folks complained about that. I think that you have way too many expectations. If I try, I can find fault with every Loco I own no matter what brand. Realize that none of them are perfect, (each one of the real ones were different too) try to do as little modification as you can and then run the wheels off em'. 

P.S.  I think that I would get the other burner for your P8. Daves burner works flawless.  Good luck.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02/29/2008 12:12 PM
Let us lay to rest another Aster myth: cannot do switching/yard work.  For 2.5 hours one of the oldest, earliest Aster Moguls was utilized to setup the reefer block and change the caboose.  The engine was under steam throughout the running session

Many years of running a ground layout during with Asters were a part of the running sessions.


LOL.   Well Charles, I knew you would respond as you always do and always take the other side.  Just bring that thing over here to my house and let me see it perform.  I know it can't do it.  That 'switching' you are talking about is on a table top in doors.  The other pictures are nice but they did not at all address any of my comments.  I am sure they did many years of 'running'.  That was not what I said was it.  We are talking apples and oranges here and always have and always will because you table top runners don't have any idea what 'operations' are as in "railroad operations".  Just my 2 cents worth.  

I wouldn't run my BR03 in the dirt anyway.  It's too expensive and too delicate.

Now an Accucraft engine, now those are brutes that you can abuse and enjoy it.

jf


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I've built 7 Aster kits and over-hauled or renovated a dozen more.  I have never been disappointed by the quality - quite the reverse - they continue to amaze me as to how they manufacture to such consistent telorances. As to controllability, I posted this video  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpZCK4o1dYs a few weeks ago - it shows just what you can do with a Berkshire.

We all have our preferences for type of instructions - I like the isometric drawings with written instructions but others prefer the "show and tell' approach of some later models.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Pauli, 

You may not be bashing aster, but certainly, almost anyone can build an aster. I cannot claim to have the expertise of some that have been in the hobby (Myself, I have been steaming for 8 years). However, I find the complexity of Aster kits to be simplier and actually easier than the meccano-erector sets offered at the time. In fact, I had completed a ruby kit the previous year and found the ruby to be more of a hassle than the Berkshire kit in fit and form. Saying Aster offers sub par tolerances is just rubbish. Please re-consider your ideals on what aster has in terms of tolerance. 

* EVERYONE:* 
I will not get into a debate over whether aster can be used in the same duties as a roundhouse. I know for a fact that they can, manual and RC controlled, and I choose not to get "hot under the collar" over this with a bunch of instigators in the hill country ;-) 
I will say this however, it is not a matter of can't, but more a matter of the owners do not give the time of day to try (that is the key...try it and who knows, you just might like it!) due to the speed stereotype given to the Aster pedigree.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello there my friend John /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif.  I think that a Aster Mikado or smaller engine would do switching just fine on your railroad, Aster engines larger then that.................your turns are not big enough radius.  I do not think that Berks, or BB's were used much for switching anyway/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif. As far as the screw reverser, no big deal to convert it to radio control. I have seen the magic that Tom B. can do. And when you would run your Aster on your railroad the valve gear would actually look right. Not backwards like on your brutes./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
You know us Texans,  draw a line in the sand- we will always take the last stand for a cause we believe in; you believe in the Aggies, me the Longhorns.  Calling one's bluff key to a stand off:
yard switching
The photos are gone of that one session but it was a detailed overview of one of our many sessions.  This one in particular was the Frank S (Aster).  Also completed sessions with the Mike, Shay, and Climax.
This session was done in true fashion of schedule, ticket, way bill and etc.  Most of ours had been more informally but Doug and the Canadian gang inspired us to do more of a more formal session.

Here is one photo on a graded layout and I'll try to  find the yard layout in the files later to encourage you to try Aster(s) for a switching session:


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

John, The next step for an engine doing switching duties is often the cutting torch/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif Thats why we don't use Asters for switching/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif  
Jeff


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I assume Dave started this string to 'stir the pot'.  I was just helping him.  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif  Of course everyone knows Accucraft beats Aster in the slow running heavy pulling category hands down any day.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

D M-K 

Back on the 28th @ 1800 you said there were NO BAD Asters, only BAD Runners. I think you are forgetting about a certain A4 Silver Link that went through MANY hands to try to "bring it up to snuff" in the running department. When I last saw it many years ago in Canada, it was sitting on someone's shelf. There was a certain debate as to who the next "victim" would be in attempting to resurrect this otherwise beautiful machine. Was this ever successfully accomplished? 

I once owned a Chapelon Nord (one of the five Aster built from their parts bin). It would not keep steam and I had three owners of Nords work on the loco without success. It went off to be a shelf queen at the front of someone's rake of J&M stock. Having gained much experience since then, I think I now know what was wrong, but unfortunately it went undiscoveded at the time. Selling it did save me the added expense of acquiring all the proper rolling stock to pull behind it. 

So, if "finicky" means you have to drive your loco instead of treating it like an electric, then yes they are. But then, if you don't want to actually drive your engine, then why are you in this part of the hobby anyway? To me, that attitude of "set it and forget it" in live steam is like wanting to have a Ferrari drive itself; typically not the reason you buy a high performance vehicle. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 03/01/2008 9:51 PM
D M-K 

Back on the 28th @ 1800 you said there were NO BAD Asters, only BAD Runners. I think you are forgetting about a certain A4 Silver Link that went through MANY hands to try to "bring it up to snuff" in the running department. When I last saw it many years ago in Canada, it was sitting on someone's shelf. There was a certain debate as to who the next "victim" would be in attempting to resurrect this otherwise beautiful machine. Was this ever successfully accomplished? 

Yes it was Jim, it is still mostly a mantel queen and rarely gets to see the limelight. There are a large number of A4s around that perform like a Rolex so I can only believe that this particular one was a rogue. It was built by Dave Stick.

DM-K
Ottawa


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

I think if we have to identify one finicky Aster then the A4 Mallard / Sir Nigel Gresley / Silver Link is the one. It was a total s-- when we struggled to build our kits back in 1984 and some of us never really succeeded. Generally the factory built-up were OK and a few kit builders got it right but the rest of us cursed and swore at them in 1984 and we still do! But to be fair lessons were learnt and so when we came to the similar A3 â€" Flying Scotsman the correct Conjugated Valve gear was used and so kit builders and factory built are equally good.
Â 
I need to disagree with Jim (Dr Rivet) about the Chapelon Nord. IMO this is the best ever Continental European outline Aster of them all. It needs careful handling but when the compounding kicks-in, it turns from a docile ***** cat into a raging lion and will pull everything you can find and can hitch behind. One for the connoisseur perhaps Jim?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Andrew 

I never suggested that the Nord was a "dog" in general; only that the one that I bought had a problem that went undiagnosed by the experienced folks who looked at it at the time. I bought it because the ones I had seen ran like good watches. I was not in the mood to let the locomotive sit on the shelf while I gained more personal experience. Sorry for the confusion. You know very well that if I thought it was a piece of scrap metal with wheels under it, that is exactly how I would have described it. You know, kind of like a certain Aster 0-6-0T with gears under it. IT was never worthy of the Marque. Satisfied now, young man? 

Cheers 
Jim


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

As you know Jim, I'm just an average kinda guy. So when you talk about your Chapelon Nord which never worked for you in a thread about "Finicky Asters" I kind of get the feeling you are saying that your Nord falls into the 'Finicky' catagory.

As for the Aster 0-6-0 Oscillators...  well THEY ARE finicky! So we agree about that!


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

I'm no well into my 4th running hour of my newly completed Aster P8. The engine perfoms extremely well. Raising steam takes about 3 minutes. The engine moves so easily, that I had have keep the blower unnessessarily much opened, to keep boiler pressure down. Of course, this wastes water, so I have to refill the tender quite often. I keep the regulator open to a very minimum. In this fashion I can keep speed down, so the locomotive won't jump the track  I keep running the engine with only 1,5-2 bar pressure. The safety valves have not yet opened once... 

Fuel lasts about 40-50 minutes - twice the time stated in the manual  This is probably thanks to the extra conventional 3 wick burner recomended and supplied extra by Aster Europe, as they claim fuel economy improves much this way. Maybee my extra added insulation also helps? I added 5 layers of aluminium foil (mirror side inwards) + ceramic felt around the boiler. Of course, I will never know  

I really want to add RC, driving without can be nervwrecking, like this weekend, when Stockholm Livesteamers built a track in my office garage. Chasing aroud the track, preventing the engine to "jump the tracks" onto the concrete floor. It causes a lot of laughter with the bystanders ... ;-) Everyone along the track of course helpes, but I haver also received the comment that "driving your Aster seems very reaxing occupation, right?" Slow driving will be a lot easier with RC! 

Today I drove 1,5 hours in my garden, se a film at http://web.mac.com/anders.grassman/iWeb/Topsida/Aster_P8_Grassman.html 

So, is running an Aster finicky? Not really. Running alcohol is more complicated than gas. And I expect coal-firing is even more difficult. So I don't really subscribe to the "finicky" part. 

However, one of our senior members (he's 80!) ran one of his favourite engines, a huge (French? not my thing) express locomotive. One of Asters first, with no feedwater pump, and just aplain pot-type boiler. He has added heating surface etc. Thing is, he was overjoyous, exlaiming "It's never run this good before!" And I have to agree, seeing his troublesome runs the past 6 years. Finicky?


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I sure am happy to hear that you are now having some good runs with your P8.  The burner system you have gives much longer runs, (the regular style about 25 minutes) and now that you seem to have the kinks worked out, it sounds to be working well.  With that extra burner time, be sure and watch the water being used from the tender.  As far as Radio Control, it is well worth the time and effort.  On my Asters, I just radio control the throttle and blower.  Most also add a servo to the reverser.  The P8 might not have much room in the cab for many servos.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Are ASTER Engines "finicky".*

Maybee there is some real basis and explanation behind the "finicky" complaints, se thread 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/11/postid/17968/view/topic/Default.aspx


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

It is time for me to say thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. 

At the time I asked the question I was about to embark on the journey or assembling a Thundedbolt. I was not aware of the ASTER Thunderbolt Kit thread at the time I ask and I am glad I was not. Had I been aware I might not have ask and therefore not have seen all of the interesting responses. 

One thing I have really pondered and not really resolved it "what is the definition of "finicky." 

Today the Thunderbolt was completed and successfully test run on rollers. 

In addition to the Thunderbolt, I have three other ASTER engines. 

Based on all the information I have at this time, my conclusion is: ASTER ENGINES ARE NOT FINICKY BUT ARE FORGIVING! 

THANKS TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!


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