# Live Steam in the home



## pappde (Jan 21, 2014)

Hi.
I remember reading on one of the forums about a device in the smokebox or chimney, that lets you run your live steamer inside your home without spaying oil and water all over the flooring.
Have any of you heard about such a device?


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

It's never a good idea to run a live steamer in the house or garage because of obvious reasons. I almost caught my garage on fire once doing it. Never again.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

I run in my basement all the time. Make sure you have adequate ventilation. Are you referring to a chuff pipe? They do cut down on spitting but live steamers are always going to drip something. 



Dave


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Dear Pappde, 
The first question to ask is which live steamer are you referring to? 
The second is are you going to be running on a track, or just straight on the floor? 
As Dave says, live steam by it's very nature is not what you might call clean. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sorry Steve had such a bad indoor live steam experience, 
I have built two portable tracks for shows. The first now resides with Jeff Young in Toronto and the second is set up in my basement when not on display. I can't estimate how many hours I have run on them indoors but it is many. I would not attempt to do so on the living room carpet but in the proper environment in controlled conditions live steam is enjoyable indoors. 
Either a Summerlands chuffer or Richard Jacob's bark box (I have both) will cut down on the oily discharge from the stack but I still think you need to be careful and utilize proper ventilation, have a fire extinguisher handy and use your head. 
Have fun, 
Tom


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Dear Pappde,
You may be remembering the Spitinator, a device designed for use on early live steam Shays. It prevented stack spitting, but the Spitinator did drain with drips onto the track. I have one on my Shay and it works as advertised to stop stack spitting, but unfortunately, the device is no longer available. Another device that prevents spitting, but not dripping, is a Bark Box, offered by Trainmaxx. I installed one in my K-27 and another in a K-28 and they also work as advertised. Finally, I have found that the Summerlands Chuffer I have installed on my Roundhouse Billy, also prevents stack spitting but not dripping onto the track.


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

I run a Regner Chaloner on a small 32mm gauge switching layout in my office. No problems at all with the Butane fire according to the Monoxide monitor. I do run the ceiling fan while operating. 
And no spitting water/oil out the stack or on the track as the engine has an exhaust condenser tank. When the tank gets full it'll start spitting water out the exhaust, then it's time to head over 
to the engine house area to drain the tank. 
Great fun to be running live steam in the comfort of your home when it's freezing cold outside!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think running a butane burner indoors is reasonably safe. Not so with an alcohol burner. Since Steve is a self-admitted Aster snob, I suspect his bad experience was related to burning alcohol.


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

I have managed to run gas fired steam locos on my basement layout with good success. But, proper ventilation can be an issue. One day last winter, I invited Larry Green over to steam and I ran my Accucraft GS5 and Larry ran his modified Roundhouse Sandy River loco for about an hour. I had my paint bench exhaust fan running and all went well. Once we shut the locos down, I turned the exhaust fan off and we went upstairs to have some tea and relax. In about a half hour, the CO alarm on the first floor began to scream and, soon after, the alarm on the second floor joined in and my wife came out of her upstairs study quite alarmed. I aired the place out -- remember, this was mid-winter in Vermont -- and everything quieted down. Evidently, some residual CO in the basement seeped upstairs when the paint exhaust fan was no longer pulling fresh air in through leaks and blowing the CO out.


The lesson seems to be that long runs with large or multiple engines can be a bit much. I've never had problems with small engines or short runs with larger engines. I'm still thinking how best to improve the ventilation so that I can run without troubling my true love. Happily, she is very accepting and supportive of my model railroading.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 27 Jan 2014 09:24 AM 
I would think running a butane burner indoors is reasonably safe. Not so with an alcohol burner. Since Steve is a self-admitted Aster snob, I suspect his bad experience was related to burning alcohol. 
Sorry Dwight,
But I have to disagree with you. 
ANY fuel is only as safe as the user.
The number of explosive fire balls that I have seen over the last few Accucraft years from unburned butane floating around is scary.
I would think that a light switch could cause the same thing in the basement of a home.
As long as we all play safely, with the proper precautions, I think any fuel is safe to use indoors.
Just have a word with yourself before you start.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

We test run all fuels in the basement when the weather is bad. Never had a problem.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 27 Jan 2014 11:21 AM 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 27 Jan 2014 09:24 AM 
I would think running a butane burner indoors is reasonably safe. Not so with an alcohol burner. Since Steve is a self-admitted Aster snob, I suspect his bad experience was related to burning alcohol. 
Sorry Dwight,
But I have to disagree with you. 
ANY fuel is only as safe as the user.
The number of explosive fire balls that I have seen over the last few Accucraft years from unburned butane floating around is scary.
I would think that a light switch could cause the same thing in the basement of a home.
As long as we all play safely, with the proper precautions, I think any fuel is safe to use indoors.
Just have a word with yourself before you start.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
My point David was that an alcohol burner is more likely to start a fire than butane simply because alcohol can leak onto things and continue to burn with an almost invisible flame. Because it's often difficult to see, the chance of it lingering and igniting the surface it's on is greater. I've seen a few butane fireballs myself. They are usually of very short duration - on the order of fractions of a second - and also usually quite contained to a very small area. I have yet to see one start an actual fire, but it's certainly quite possible to have one's hair and/or eyebrows singed, and I'm sure it could cause significant damage to the eyes as well. Adequate safety precautions should always be observed regardless of whether one runs indoors or out, and one should also have a fire extinguisher handy.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"explosive fire balls"

Oh Dear! I'm afraid that I don't need to run my live steamer inside the house to cause that kind of concern. A large helping of those wonderful "grilling beans" that have the Bourbon in them will usually suffice!









Ducking & weaving,
David Meashey


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

We all need to remember that David Leech has concerns presumably based on his living in "Nanny State" countries that severely regulate rather than require individual responsibility. However... at this point the USA is only about 1/2 step behind them. 

General comment NOT directed at the OP below: 

If one is so inept as to allow clouds of butane vapor to accumulate in a confined space, or allow alcohol to drip [or spill] onto flammable surfaces in the presence of open flame, perhaps the live steam hobby is NOT for you. If operating a miniature steam locomotive causes you any significant stress out of fear of making mistakes, I would certainly confine my running to the outside until confidence improves.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Lol! Imagine the harm one could do with a hammer ... it might be safer just to look at a picture of a railway?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

And keep in mind that we run indoors at both Diamondhead and at the National Summer Steamup for days at a time every year. We've yet to burn the place down.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 27 Jan 2014 02:53 PM
We all need to remember that David Leech has concerns presumably based on his living in "Nanny State" countries that severely regulate rather than require individual responsibility. However... at this point the USA is only about 1/2 step behind them. 

General comment NOT directed at the OP below: 

If one is so inept as to allow clouds of butane vapor to accumulate in a confined space, or allow alcohol to drip [or spill] onto flammable surfaces in the presence of open flame, perhaps the live steam hobby is NOT for you. If operating a miniature steam locomotive causes you any significant stress out of fear of making mistakes, I would certainly confine my running to the outside until confidence improves. 


WOW, it must be nice to be perfect and to have never made a stupid mistake. I, on the other hand am human......and sadly I do make them. This has nothing to do with "Individual Responsibility". After you burn your house down try telling your insurance agent that it was caused by running a live steam engine in it and I think he will give you a lesson on Responsibility. Lets just end this here. I know you all will have a thousand come backs like, "They would still pay". All I can say to my fellow live steamer friends is........YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED...................


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Steve 

I have learned all this the hard way, just like everybody else. I have made many stupid mistakes and some are documented quite well, specifically a two foot flame issuing from the front of an Aster K4 as I attempted to light it. I am sure Charles has that photo somewhere in his archive. HOWEVER.. I have seen people who are just plain careless almost all the time in operating their locomotives and they represent 80% of the MAJOR fire related disasters at any event I attend. 

I specifically said "in a CONFINED space" like a small room... I did not make a generalization. I would argue that candles [especially in windows at holiday time] represent a far greater fire hazard. Locomotives are seldom left unattended, the fires are small and reasonably contained [assuming you don't have lots of loose flammable stuff lying about close to the track], and even the flash fire of a SMALL amount of gas on the track is momentary. 

In my mind, this is similar to using a small butane torch for soldering at your work bench, and less hazardous than using a bigger torch for brazing or silver soldering a boiler. If similar safety precautions are exercised, the risks are also similar.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 28 Jan 2014 07:15 AM
Steve 

I have learned all this the hard way, just like everybody else. I have made many stupid mistakes and some are documented quite well, specifically a two foot flame issuing from the front of an Aster K4 as I attempted to light it. I am sure Charles has that photo somewhere in his archive. HOWEVER.. I have seen people who are just plain careless almost all the time in operating their locomotives and they represent 80% of the MAJOR fire related disasters at any event I attend. 

I specifically said "in a CONFINED space" like a small room... I did not make a generalization. I would argue that candles [especially in windows at holiday time] represent a far greater fire hazard. Locomotives are seldom left unattended, the fires are small and reasonably contained [assuming you don't have lots of loose flammable stuff lying about close to the track], and even the flash fire of a SMALL amount of gas on the track is momentary.

In my mind, this is similar to using a small butane torch for soldering at your work bench, and less hazardous than using a bigger torch for brazing or silver soldering a boiler. If similar safety precautions are exercised, the risks are also similar. 



Please Jim, do not take the following personal because it is not meant to be. In all honesty, you have forgotten more about live steam then I will ever know, and I really do mean that. However, you make my point very clear in your first three sentences. These things can happen to anyone. And yes, then add to the equation that many people are careless. Then add in all the new folks getting into Live Steam because of all the lower priced entry level engines......and.....it may not be from carelessness, but just from a total lack of Live Steam experience. Can we please just end this.......I do not want to get into a "Nit-Picking" match with you about this. I do highly respect your opinions around here and 99% of the time agree with them, just not this time.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi again All;

Getting serious, perhaps our personal habits regarding safety have a lot to do with the training we received. Unlike most of you, my own training in live steam started with a Crown Metal Products 4-4-0 two foot gauge locomotive. This locomotive weighed four and a half tons in working order, and carried 155 psi on the gauge before the safety valves lifted. I vividly remember what my boss and mentor, Howie Evans, said before he started training me to fire, run, and maintian that locomotive: "You will only make one mistake with steam. It will be the last mistake you ever make." Perhaps because of that quote and the size of locomotive I started with, Safety First has always been ingrained in my dealings with live steam. It took me a long time to get used to the expression: "If you're not burning your fingers, you're not having fun." That is because I was taught how to do my tasks without getting burned or scalded or squeezed, etc. After working eight years for a real railroad, where there were plenty of things that could kill you if you did not pay attention to your surroundings, Safety First became ingrained in me even more. Even the office employees, myself included, were required to take an annual safety examination. We also were called upon to run the railroad when there was a strike. Even in the local chapter of the NRHS, we have to take safety training before serving as car hosts for train excursions.

Anyway, I am thankful that I was trained very well from the beginning. I try to take all necessary precautions whenever I am running a live steamer, but I also realize that others may not have had the same good training that I got. I guess we all have to be ready to act as mentors for the newbies. I know that I certainly appreciated the help I got starting out on the hobby side of live steam.

Have fun, but always remember Safety First,
David Meashey


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Running live steam indoors is not dangerous if you pay attention to what you are doing. I speak from 32 years first hand experience of running on Doug Pattman's basement 20'x45' track for a good 20 years, my own 18'x35' basement track for the last 20 years and Bill Bryants 30'x30' one in Toronto. We have run everything from Mamods up to Aster NYC Hudsons and Accucraft Royal Hudsons with no problems. In the unlikely case of a fire, a couple of buckets of water kept under the track have never been used, but the odd squirt from a squeeze bottle of water has been neccesary........the alcohol burns, not the baseboard or track, and because you are running in less light than outdoors you will see any fire immediately.......again, IF YOU ARE PAYING ATTENTION. 
On alcohol fired engines, which have been 90% of our running, properly installed and trimmed wicks are essential for complete combustion and the ellimination of the horrid un-burned fuel smell that you come across sometimes on outside tracks. My experience of running two big Aster gassers at once in Doug's basement was that they could stink up the place, but in winter we always ran with a wood fire in the stove and a small window open, and in summer with windows at each side of the basement open........no problem at all. A couple of years back, James Ritson brought his coal-fired Castle up from Atlanta and we ran it here for a couple of hours on Welsh steam coal, the house was not smokey but the smell was wonderful! 
In conclusion, absolutely no problem.........but you must pay attention, be a responsible adult and not act like a cretin. 

David M-K 
Ottawa


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

POISON - since the alcohol we use is adulterated with a poison, what is the potential harm of breathing the vapors of the poison? 

Just wondering. 

Will


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By thumper on 30 Jan 2014 05:28 AM 
POISON - since the alcohol we use is adulterated with a poison, what is the potential harm of breathing the vapors of the poison? 

Just wondering. 

Will 
I can't answer your question Will, but I do know that the alcohol we use here is 99.9% pure which has not been, in your words, 'adulterated with a poison'.
I believe that like everything in life, you use common sense (here we go again!) and run trains in combination with some ventillation in your enclosed space. In my 32 years of running with other people on basement railways, I haven't come across anyone with any respiratory ailments or undue loopiness, in fact Doug Pattman used to run trains daily and eventually fell of his perch well into his 90s......after a career that saw him observing nuclear blasts in Australia and the Nevada desert, and one time being on a helicopter that landed at Ground Zero less than 30 minutes after the explosion.........!!!!! 

David M-K
Ottawa


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*methanol*- If there is adequate ventilation, alcohols burn to produce only water vapour and carbon dioxide. Carbon _mon_oxide is only produced if there is not enough oxygen-supply for complete combustion. 

So, if you breathes in the *butane gas vapor* that has accumulated as it is known to do: Inhalation of butane can cause euphoria, drowsiness, narcosis, asphyxia, cardiac arrhythmia, fluctuations in blood pressure, temporary memory loss ad will as H20 and carbon dioxide

Now, to my favor fuel,* coal:* coal combustion affects not only the human respiratory system, but also the cardiovascular and nervous system.

Bottomline, as DMK, good ventilation is key when using any of our live steam locomotives indoor no matter the fuel!!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Charles, 
I've made the mistake of using methanol in a rather large facility and I'm sure it had "adequate" ventilation....tell that to the kids who's eyes were burning....and the mother's eyes that were burning at me....Needless to say, I different spirit was used after that.....at least by me. 

I've also seen some inexperienced steamers get themselves into trouble without understanding the properties of butane gas....at a Christmas show, many poinsettias were altered....there definitely wasn't much euphoria at the time... 

My only funny coal story was running in hotel down in St. Louis when a bridal couple emerged to a rather large plume of smoke from the reception room....apparently the ventilation was inadequate for them.....clearly didn't appreciate what they were seeing... 

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Sam

We use racing fuel ($5 per gal)...on a side note: Methanol may be made from hydrocarbon or renewable resources, in particular natural gas and biomass respectively. It can also be synthesized from CO2 (carbon dioxide) and hydrogen


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

There are three basic forms of "pure Alcohol"; Ethanol, Methanol and Isopropanol. All of them are various combinations and quantities of Hydrogen, Oxygen and Carbon in different molecular chains, (as is common table sugar and corn syrup!). And all of the "alcohol" forms of these molecules are "poison" at some level of ingestion over time; some more so than others.

Ethanol is also known as "Grain Alcohol" and is derived from the fermentation (ethanol is a byproduct of bacterial growth!) of just about any fruit or grain. It is a very mild poison that the body can convert to fat or excreted rather quickly if ingested in small amounts and causes little or no damage. Larger amounts affect the nervous system, mostly temporarily and produces a mild euphoria that many people quite enjoy, but does cause some damage to the nervous system and the liver. Larger quantities produce loss of judgment which often leads to death because the intoxicated (note the route word is "Toxic") individual is at that point lacking in the intelligence to not attempt to drive a car while under the influence of the alcohol. Ingesting extremely large quantities leads to nervous system shut down and death. It is not easily absorbed into the body through the skin.

Methanol is similar to Ethanol, but is much more poisonous in even small quantities. It can be derived in several ways, including the fermentation of wood (hence its common name of "Wood Alcohol") or from the distillation of crude oil. When ingested, the body converts it to formaldehyde which destroys synapses, which, depending on the amount ingested, usually leads to blindness prior to the general shut down of the nervous system and death. It should be noted that it can be absorbed through the skin, thus skin contact IS dangerous.

Isopropanol is also derived from the distillation of crude oil (and some other sources). It does not get absorbed through the skin the way Methanol is, but it is still poisonous if taken internally.


Ethanol is mostly used as an ingestible drink as noted above and because of its intoxicant nature tends to make the person ingesting it to believe they are not being harmed by it... and that feeling of euphoria leads the user to desire more (that old "if it feels good, do it" thought). Due to its addictive nature, the government controls the production and sale of the intoxicant by taxing it at a very high rate (easy money!) and imposing severe penalties for attempting to avoid the tax.

Ethanol is also an excellent solvent, and in that role is often used to dissolve flakes of "Shellac" to produce a durable surface finish for wood furniture. But pure Ethanol is too expensive (due to the tax) to use for this purpose.

Methanol, being a poison is not taxed as heavily. It also can be used as a solvent, but it is not as good as Ethanol. Because it is poisonous and blends neatly with Ethanol (and it is hard to separate the two), most alcohol solvents are Ethanol "denatured" (made poisonous) with Methanol (and often other "solvents" that the manufacturer thinks improves the solvent properties) so it can be sold without the "drinking tax" applied and is thus cheaper. The exact proportions of the various components of any brand of "denatured alcohol" is treated as a Trade Secret, but the government has set a minimum percentage of Methanol in the mix to make the concoction non-drinkable/poisonous and thus avoid the tax.

Isopropanol is often mixed with glycerin as a skin emollient and other oils and sold as "rubbing alcohol". It is a solvent to cleanse the skin of oil, and when it evaporates it leaves the glycerin and other "cleaner" oils.



Complete combustion of Ethanol or Methanol produces only Carbon Dioxide and Water (CO2 and H2O). BUT, incomplete combustion can produce some level of Carbon Monoxide (CO) as well as leave some of the chains of the alcohol in the form of vapor in the exhaust. AND, depending on what else is in the alcohol, can produce some other vapors that might be very dangerous.


For me, I stay away from Methanol... 

I noted that doctors swab your skin with "alcohol" to kill germs before giving you a shot. And you can buy "waterless" hand cleaners that are gelatin'd alcohol to clean and sanitize. I did not understand the differences or that Methanol can be absorbed through the skin and I made the mistake washing my hands too many times with "Denatured Alcohol" and as a result damaged my liver. I did not relate the use of "alcohol" to wash my hands with the pain in my gut. The Dorktor kept sending me to various labs for tests trying to prove I had hepatitis, but the results kept coming back negative (he made the mistake of making the diagnosis based on my generation and symptoms before testing was complete and then kept trying to prove his diagnosis... I got better in spite of his ego!). It took a while to achieve the correct diagnosis, but by then I was better and apparently have not suffered great damage and over time the liver might repair itself (if I don't die of old age first). 


Relevant to the question posed by Thumper in this thread... I also had an "event" when firing my Mike and using "Sunnyside" alcohol from True Value Hardware (also sold at other places). It has more adulterants than other brands (and supposedly is a better solvent). I was leaning over my loco doing the traditional "oiling around" while steam was building and got a heavy whiff of the exhaust of the engine. If it weren't for a lawn chair that I had taken out there with me I doubt if I would have made it to the house before being on the ground. I sat in that chair for a long time before I could get up to shut the fire off and put everything away. I didn't get to run that day.


I now use S-L-X brand of alcohol from Home Depot (and other places) because it has less of the additional solvents than the other brands (at least it used to). The odor of it is not nearly as bad as the Sunnyside brand, but I am not about to go take a good deep breath of it to find out if it will knock me down. I have read that the governmental regulations are slowly forcing the various brands of "Denatured Alcohol" to use similar proportions and I have not bought S-L-X recently to know if it now stinks as bad as the Sunnyside brand.

Regardless, I am very careful about breathing the vapors from my engine... 

But it should be noted that many people burn "Sterno" (which is basically unflavored gelatin reconstituted with Denatured Alcohol) under a Chaffing dish when serving elegant dinners or making Fondue and nobody seems to be the worse for wear. Granted those burners are pretty much open for complete combustion and are not "forced" via a draft so there SHOULD BE fewer unburnt or incomplete burnt byproducts in the exhaust. Note also that people burn butane in "candles" on the dinner table and plumbers often use a propane or butane torch in confined spaces for short periods of time with no (presently known) untoward effects.

I think there is a higher probability that you will burn your house down when running a live steamer indoors than being harmed from the fumes, but that uncommon form of intelligence known a "common sense" should prevail when you are playing with trains, whether indoors or out.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I made the mistake, recently, of running my Pannier on Methanol, (boiling point 69 degrees C), rather than on denatured Ethanol, (boiling point somewhere near 78 degrees C). The Pannier, being a tank loco, has the fuel tank on board, behind the boiler. Even though I had several layers of insulation in front of the fuel tank, when the Methanol in the fuel tank boils, all bets are off. I had flames shooting everywhere. 

At DH this year I ran the Pannier on the provided Denatured Ethanol, without incident. I did keep my fire extinguisher handy. No more Meths for the Pannier!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

DM-K made a specific point; 

FOR ALCOHOL... properly trimmed and adjusted wicks are essential for complete combustion of the fuel. In my opinion MOST people do not REGULARLY mess with the wicks on their locomotives as long as they continue to raise "adequate" steam. This leads to less than optimum performance. I am to be counted among the guilty on this count.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I find all of this so amusing. In most of these posts we learn:
Most have done stupid things when steaming while trying their best to be responsible.
The fuels that run our Loco's give off poisonous fumes.
These fumes can accumulate and down near knock you out.
You can barely even see a alcohol fire, and no matter what it's make up is it burns.
Butane can ball up and then turn into a fire ball.
Alcohol wicks that are not maintained make fumes worse and can leak alcohol under Loco.
Admittance that no one (Me either) maintains said wicks as often as should be done.
I could go on, but instead I will just say Etc., Etc., Etc., and.......Etc., again.
Then add that none of us are getting any younger: Forget things, harder to carry things, harder to bend over, etc.
SO, all I can say is ................................
THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO IS TO RUN YOUR LIVE STEAM LOCO'S OUTSIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES, THAT IS THE RESPONSIBLE WAY TO DO IT !!!!!!!!! Now go ahead and keep justifying that running Live steam indoors 
is responsible. I hate to sound like a jerk but it is fun to keep reading how you all keep making my point and do 
not realize it. I just hope that you all stay LUCKY while running indoors. Because you have not been Responsible, you have 
been lucky.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Lighten up Francis. Your furnace can kill you to, better turn off the heat.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Steve, 
Whether inside or out, you bring up a good point. 
Yes, we are getting older. 
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam. 
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate. 
Yes Jim, we need more Nanny State here. 
Or as I keep saying, play safe and have a word with yourself BEFORE you do things. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

The one good point about butane is that if it does get away from you, at least it all burns at once...


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## H. Hanno (Jan 2, 2014)

Hi, I am new to this forum, and to live steam, but here is my experience on this subject. I have been running my layout in the basement for almost a year. I take a few precautions: never leave a locomotive fired and not supervised; I keep a bucket full of water in an accessible place; I don't leave any inflammable materials such as oil or fuel or paper on the layout table. I had no problem so far (fingers crossed). I know this doesn't prove that there is no danger, only that the probability of accidents can be minimised. I installed a Summerfield Chuffer and it did wonders in keeping the locomotive and the layout clean. But of course it dribbles oil on the track, which I clean every now and then. Happy steaming.

Hussein


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Butane is more fun if you get your face closer:










(That ain't ME. I don't own a butane burner!)

I was just very "lucky" to get that shot, but not as lucky as ... (well... I won't say the name and he is blurred enough in motion that nobody will recognize him!) was in not even losing a single eyebrow hair... but it was "close".

I was just snapping photos when, what looked like a small flame went up from the open smokebox door of a modified Ruby. The digital camera is more sensitive to the infrared than the human eye, so the flame appears a bit worse that it looked in reality. What I saw was a pale blue fast swirling ball of fire that was gone in a few milliseconds, but the photo makes it look almost thermonuclear!


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

I've been watching this from the sidelines for a while, and while I have little more than another opinion to add, I'd like to put my two cents' worth in before folks start seriously flaming one another (pun intended):

Many decades ago, I was fortunate enough to serve as a fireman on a full sized, oil-fired Shay. Safety is inarguably Priority One -- not just the crew's safety, but that of the public who you're transporting or who may be in the area. That even applies to the idiots who bolt out of the woods and on to the track "to see the train go by". By extension, this responsibility extends to those of us who are running our (little) live steamers in public or in our private homes, where our actions can affect others. 

In that vein, one of the very first things I was told as a trainee fireman was to **never** leave the engine standing unattended. In my opinion, this is a requirement regardless of scale.


Working around steamers of all sizes doesn't require any extraordinary effort, just planning, care and common sense. I'd also strongly recommend that anyone new to live steam learn about firing and running from someone with more experience, if possible; it's nice to have a forum like this one to answer beginners' questions, but it's not really a substitute for watching more experienced practitioners.

I've run live steam on my basement layout for several years now, with no mishaps or issues. Proper ventilation is an absolute must -- not because you're in danger of asphyxiating yourself, it just cuts down on the butane-and-steam-oil smell that, for some odd reason, my wife finds less than attractive.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam. 
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Feb 2014 08:30 AM 
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam. 
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much. 
AMEN to that!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

My Gosh. Now this thread has turned into a Big Brother is watching thread. Anyone that knows me personally (And, Plenty on MLS do) know that I am: Totally Conservative, Can't stand government intrusion, Pro capitalism, Pro second Amendment, Pro strong Military, (Peace through strength) Pro Life, and Pro everything else that liberals hate. Taking all of the above post's into consideration I am now going to act like a Liberal and change my position so that I can appeal to the masses. If you want to run Live Steam indoors I hope you have fun while doing it. By admitting that I almost burned my garage down once also shows that I do not mind using myself as an example (Shows how stupid I was) in hopes that none of my friends here on MLS do the same. Now I am sure that there are those here who do not know me personally and have already formed an opinion and think I am a jerk because my Conservative beliefs come through many times in my post's here. That's OK, unlike our liberal media.......I think that all sides should be shown. Anyway, I do no longer care how or where you run your engines. Even if on the top of your head, just be careful while doing it. It seems like I read way to often here on MLS about another train enthusiast passing away. It always saddens me. The young folks now are way too busy with their electronic gadgets and games to give a hoot about our hobby. We are thinning out, so.......... Be Safe, and...God Bless Ronald Reagan.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 01 Feb 2014 08:49 AM 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Feb 2014 08:30 AM 
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam. 
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much. 
AMEN to that!









Grab a hold of the reins lads, didn't you see David Leech's tongue firmly in cheek? What happened, did some of you have your sense of humour surgically removed or something ;-)) ?
David M-K
Ottawa


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, was attempt to burn you house down BEFORE you built your big track outside?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

While I agree that I hate it when the government says I can't do things... I certainly appreciate it when they tell my neighbor that he can't have an outdoor shooting range in his backyard in this neighborhood of closely spaced houses, and the genius down the street cannot have nuclear materials to build a reactor in his basement, and the clods across the street cannot make meth in their garage.

I guess it is one's own perspective whether the government is too controlling.

Reminds me of a Sunday at church one time... As the Pastor went through preaching about the prevalent sins of this world the old lady that always sat in the front pew would rap her cane on the floor and shout "AMEN" as he spoke of their evil. That is until he got to the evils of snuff dipping; she then stood up and walked out! As she left the sanctuary she muttered, "Now he has done stopped preachin' and took to meddlin'!"


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 31 Jan 2014 08:06 AM 
I find all of this so amusing. In most of these posts we learn: Most have done stupid things when steaming while trying their best to be responsible. The fuels that run our Loco's give off poisonous fumes. These fumes can accumulate and down near knock you out. You can barely even see a alcohol fire, and no matter what it's make up is it burns. Butane can ball up and then turn into a fire ball. Alcohol wicks that are not maintained make fumes worse and can leak alcohol under Loco. Admittance that no one (Me either) maintains said wicks as often as should be done. I could go on, but instead I will just say Etc., Etc., Etc., and.......Etc., again. Then add that none of us are getting any younger: Forget things, harder to carry things, harder to bend over, etc. SO, all I can say is ................................ THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO IS TO RUN YOUR LIVE STEAM LOCO'S OUTSIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES, THAT IS THE RESPONSIBLE WAY TO DO IT !!!!!!!!! Now go ahead and keep justifying that running Live steam indoors is responsible. I hate to sound like a jerk but it is fun to keep reading how you all keep making my point and do not realize it. I just hope that you all stay LUCKY while running indoors. Because you have not been Responsible, you have been lucky. 

How is it any different then using the gas on your stove, lighting a candle, having a fire in the fire place, using gas heaters etc........... They all can have consequences especially if one is not carful. The important thing is you just have to be carful, like anything else found in the home, have a fire extinguisher handy and proper ventilation, like mentioned. Running a live steam in the basement, garage or even on the floor (if done is a safe manner) is no different then anything else found in the house.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By snowshoe on 02 Feb 2014 01:20 PM
Posted By Steve S. on 31 Jan 2014 08:06 AM
I find all of this so amusing. In most of these posts we learn: Most have done stupid things when steaming while trying their best to be responsible. The fuels that run our Loco's give off poisonous fumes. These fumes can accumulate and down near knock you out. You can barely even see a alcohol fire, and no matter what it's make up is it burns. Butane can ball up and then turn into a fire ball. Alcohol wicks that are not maintained make fumes worse and can leak alcohol under Loco. Admittance that no one (Me either) maintains said wicks as often as should be done. I could go on, but instead I will just say Etc., Etc., Etc., and.......Etc., again. Then add that none of us are getting any younger: Forget things, harder to carry things, harder to bend over, etc. SO, all I can say is ................................ THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO IS TO RUN YOUR LIVE STEAM LOCO'S OUTSIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES, THAT IS THE RESPONSIBLE WAY TO DO IT !!!!!!!!! Now go ahead and keep justifying that running Live steam indoors is responsible. I hate to sound like a jerk but it is fun to keep reading how you all keep making my point and do not realize it. I just hope that you all stay LUCKY while running indoors. Because you have not been Responsible, you have been lucky.

How is it any different then using the gas on your stove, lighting a candle, having a fire in the fire place, using gas heaters  etc...........  They all can have consequences especially if one is not carful.  The important thing is you just have to be carful, like anything else found in the home, have a fire extinguisher handy and proper ventilation, like mentioned. Running a live steam in the basement, garage or even on the floor (if done is a safe manner) is no different then anything else found in the house.      

Please read my post five post's back.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02 Feb 2014 07:54 AM
Steve, was attempt to burn you house down BEFORE you built your big track outside? 


Mr. Grunge, I did have my smaller first track set up in the back yard. However I had just received my Aster Mikado (When the Aster Snob bug first bit) and took it into the garage to run on my test stand with rollers. My 5 year old Daughter was with me. In my excitement (Stupidity) I did not notice that the tender fuel line was not in correct line with the engine. So with the movement of the engine running on rollers it worked it's way off. I proceeded to dump a whole tender full of alcohol under the Loco and naturally, as luck would have it ....... it flowed behind the engine where I could not see the now large puddle (Actually lake) of alcohol that had formed. It lit, and I could not even see the fire. My Daughter said, "Daddy, what stinks?" Only then did I realize that it was not just alcohol I was smelling but other things on the top of my work bench burning now too. I grabbed her, carried her to the other side and as I am running back I can now see a nasty fire that was about to get out of control. Luck was on my side. I had a huge tumbler of ice tea (Like one of those 72 oz. ones you drink on all day) sitting on the work bench. I grabbed it and put the fire out with it. I then took my Daughter inside and then went to the bathroom to change my underwear.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, sounds exciting... but not in a good way. I'll continue to do my steaming outdoors or at indoor group meets like DH and Cabin fever. (Easy for me to say when it was almost 70 here today)


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I regularly run both butane and alcohol locomotives on rollers in my garage. I'm frankly more worried about the effect of fumes than about fire but I do keep a pail of water and a fire extinguisher handy just in case. 

I'm not sure running outside is any safer. My infamous 232U1 broke free of her tender and jumped off the track and set fire to the dry grass. At a memorable steam-up at Sunset Valley Railroad, a butane GS5 stopped right under a coniferous tree while the track ahead was cleared - the tree caught fire and went up like a roman candle. 

The moral is that when we play with fire, we need to take sensible precautions. I have a couple of fire extinguishers and a hose pipe ready to go just in case. 

Robert


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