# Bells, Whistles, and Prime Movers!!



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Each of these make a unique sound, in a freq. range all to their own! But, does anyone know what those ranges might be?

This is a 2 pointer!!

HA. 

Working on Matt's DDA40X Loco project in the sound dept & I have room for multiple speakers! I want to install maybe 2x -3" in the fuel tank and smaller 2x- 1 1/2" vented thru the top fans! 

Why? 1st, this loco has 2 prime movers, as such it will need 2 sound boards and therefore 2 sound systems to replay in the closest original format, 2 prime movers / 2 air compressors. But any loco has only one horn and a bell! WE want to run the detail sounds from only one sound board, yet play the separate and different prime movers for both loco engines.

Having room however gives me the idea to carry the prime mover sound - a very low freq -. thru the bottom large speakers for each mover. And use the upper speakers for the higher pitched horn and bell sounds!

Therefore the reason behind knowing the freq range of these items will be to design a basic and simple cross-over network to send those distinct sounds to their respective speakers and not all sounds to all speakers.

So I'm ALL EARs here guys!!

Thanks for any ideas & Help!!

Dirk & Matt
DMS Ry.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I use Phoenix sound cards and you could do what you describe except splitting the primer mover sound to one speaker and the horn to the other. From reading threads here over the past so many months I believe you can do this with the new QSI Titan. 

Alan


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I would design the crossover based on the capabilities of the speakers you're using, not the sounds. Various high and low aspects of each sound will then be routed to the proper speakers. 

As for the horn and bell, it should be a simple matter to mute them on one decoder, especially if you're using one of the more programmable decoders on the market these days. Or, for cheaper decoders like those from Digitrax, make a custom sound program without horn or bell.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The qsi Titan does let you assign different sounds to different speaker. I did what you describing in a USA f3--put a large, bass-capable speaker in the tank and a smaller speaker under the grill near the cab. Then assign the engine sound sto one speaker. And the horn and bell to another


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 24 Sep 2012 05:48 PM 
The qsi Titan does let you assign different sounds to different speaker. I did what you describing in a USA f3--put a large, bass-capable speaker in the tank and a smaller speaker under the grill near the cab. Then assign the engine sound sto one speaker. And the horn and bell to another 

Did using the smaller speaker improve the sound from the loco?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

yes--using the smaller speaker, which was a 2 inch speaker, for the whistle and the bell makes them appear to come from the front of the loco. You can mix each sound--for example, the bell is coming 100 through the smaller front speaker, while the horn is coming mostly from the smaller speaker. Bass frequencies tend to seem less "directional," so you can mix in some bass and stil preserve the sense that its coming from the front of the loco. It takes some tweaking. 

QSI also lets you change the pitch of some of the sounds, so you can, say, make two identical prime mover sound files seem less identical by, say, raising the pitch of on and lowering the pitch of the other. Its not a huge difference, but noticeable


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So far these ideas are very helpful!! 

I was not expecting to send an entire horn or bell sound to a given speaker, but rather to get the bulk of the given freq. range in a better area, i.e. - the loco top area where it should be heard well, and better than coming from the loco lower areas - fuel tank 

Sounds like the QSI is more controlling of sound features also... 

anything else!?? 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah buddy, 
you might consider mounting your speaker in a tube and fire it out both sides. Got vents? 
Seems we railroaders have a penchant for running in the rain and snow. Upward facing speakers are suseptable to water damage.... 

Of course in a Monsoon... the loco might be flyin' sideways... just sayin' 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

geeeez...... it just dawned on me that if I double post,.. I could get more 'post points' and catch up with you guys!! hehe!! 

Good ideas John, but we never get rain here or snow!! 

AND.... 

CA. is in a drought anyways ... 

But all good stuff to keep in mind.. 

'Rolling Tuber' sounds .... 

........ it's got a ring to it - don't it! 

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

you can have half of my post count 
Wasted days and wasted nights.... 

I get perfect Vail snows every other year or so... 
Snows over night, take pics in the morning and gone by noon! 

Matt might have sprinklers and fog....  

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The QSI does a lot more than support 2 speakers, it supports making sounds for 2 prime movers, each prime mover can have a slightly different sound, speed, rod knock, etc. 

You need to hear one of these with 2 speakers, where each prime mover comes from a different speaker. 

It's way beyond any other sound decoder in this respect. 

Just get someone to load the latest sounds, the E8 sound is to be released soon. If not, I'll have a video of it this next weekend, but I don't have stereo recording to let you place the the 2 different prime mover sound sources. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The Prime mover needs to be the same as used in a SD45 loco - a 20 cylinder job..... so 2 - 20 cylinders jobs or 40 cylinders - just runn'n out of sync. Interesting description you gave here Greg for the sounds! THX!! 

So will one board drive all 4 speakers as depicted above! I'm talking out put power here!? This loco really needs a special sound system to go with it!!!!! 

John, we get the same snow here. Move fast before it melts if you want a pic at all!!! Only a couple times a year ...I dunn'o 'bot wasted nights, I try to build and post - multi -tasking is all. Need a break sometimes .. cleaning off building surface tonight, and a little added work on a semi-trailer converted to a step - or drop down bed, want it off the bench!! 

Dirk


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No board does 4 prime movers, but the QSI will do two, and you could use two 4 ohm speakers per channel... but you really will want more volume, missed the one board 2 loco bit. I'd use 2 boards, one per loco, and then you could use a crossover on each channel and 2 tweeters and 2 woofers in each loco... or one tweeter and woofer on one channel, and a "normal" aristo oval on the other. 

If you are really going for the ultimate sound, I'd pick a larger loco and get 2 woofers in the fuel tank and tweeters behind the fans, and I'd use more, like a total of 4 per loco. 

But, I suspect that if you were trying to get one board to run 2 locos, there is some consideration for budget. 

If cost is no object, I'd actually be interested in helping design the system (no charge). 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Pick a larger loco...mmm 

G-scale - size does matter... 

Greg - slow down yer speed reading buddy! Whats a larger loco than a DDA40X 

I have room for 2 speakers in the tank!! And I'm really trying to plan ahead for the interior spaces used in this project. well ahead!! LOTS of volume would be GOOD! 
2 smaller ones can go elsewhere also... 

Now where are we!?? Thx 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The fuel tank is over 15 inches long, and built from 2 - SD45 tanks,.. spliced as needed ( in several places ). 

I will need to cut holes thru the bottom to install speakers inside, with internal mounting tabs to suit, and grill covers set over the outside of the tank. 

Even for better volume - there could be more than 2 speakers - to cover the low end ranges, and why it probably needs a couple sound boards to work well!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I misread your post above and saw the SD45 reference, whoops! 

if you could, shoot for two 4 inch woofers pointing down, and maybe 4 tweeters pointing up. You could add an amp if you wanted, but I believe with efficient speakers and well sealed, correctly sized enclosures, you could make this work with only the decoder. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yep, the SD45 was for the 'prime mover' engine only...!! 

As far as the fuel tank goes - well I'd Luv to have room to stuff in a 4in. speaker or 2, but it won't happen, not in our life times!! 

the tank flat base is only 2 3/4 wide, a speaker that large has a huge magnet that will not fit in a narrow body hood either, basically a max of 1 3/4 in. height also, It really gets limited in even G size locos to get a decent speaker in for great sound... 

A box car would be pushed to get in a 4 in speaker, maybe cocked on edge somewhat - off angle ... 

even trying to get a 3 in. speaker in a frame ( speaker frame ) would be tough to squeeze in...the fuel tank. 

I'm thinking to get the volume several smaller speakers will be needed, on board, not sure of a trailing speaker car for the low notes to emit from ...so with 3-4 smaller units and a good enclosure it could be pulled off!?? This just for the low engine sounds tho. But several would give more air movement... 

Depends on Matt's loco line-up and what goes after the DD40, so pretty much it needs to be self contained in the loco only!! 

Always challenging eh! Just when you think it's big enough...You wish it was bigger still... 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And the magnet needs to be smaller than 1 3/4 in. dia.to fit in the upper section of the tank.....


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

On My first SD70 loco project I bought a set of 3-way oval car stereo speakers, tried,... but never got close and took them back to the store ... 

The oval unit from A/C is too small for in tank use, and is probably not the best in sound quality overall.. 

I have some of the smaller Hi-Bass speakers - but un-heard yet, so can't comment on them ! 

What we need in our sector of the hobby are some great oval units in 2 x 4 or 2 1/2 x 5 sizes with good flex and an oval magnet that will fit easily into an older standard cab and narrow hooded loco!! A nice high quality low profile speaker!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 25 Sep 2012 10:01 AM 
On My first SD70 loco project I bought a set of 3-way oval car stereo speakers, tried,... but never got close and took them back to the store ... 

The oval unit from A/C is too small for in tank use, and is probably not the best in sound quality overall.. 

I have some of the smaller Hi-Bass speakers - but un-heard yet, so can't comment on them ! 

What we need in our sector of the hobby are some great oval units in 2 x 4 or 2 1/2 x 5 sizes with good flex and an oval magnet that will fit easily into an older standard cab and narrow hooded loco!! A nice high quality low profile speaker!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry. 




We do have them, you just dont know were to look. Try these, they sound the best to me.
http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/sound-digital-speakers-c-83_159.html
Jethro


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Just be aware that "bass" is not exactly what you are going to get with those speakers. The biggest speaker on that page goes down to 100 hz. For comparison, the lowest note on a bass guitar is 41hz. 100 hz is about the "A" string on a guitar, or in other words, the second lowest string on a standard guitar. So there really isn't any bass content to speak of in even a three inch speaker. 



What you hear as "bass" is the harmonic overtones of actual bass notes, the higher overtones which are always present rather than the fundamental frequency. Hard to explain. The bottom line , forgive the pun, is that smaller speakers potentially might work as well--the difference between a 2 inch and a three inch speaker might not matter much


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I certainly was not expecting to get 'bass' such as can be had from a 12'' or 15'' woofer in a home stereo set. I generally agree with your conclusions ''Lownote" regarding size since they are all just plain small in size. I also noticed the low end ranges for the various models on the page, and saw that a I think one of the 2 in. ( Hi-Perf, fullsize ) had pretty low ranges also, not 100, but lower than 200. ...actually 150 - 20,000 which would be the second best of all those listed .. 

The next question for that unit would be wrestling with the large magnet and 'IF' if fits inside the narrow tank opening ....? I also know off hand I have 'some room' to massage the upper tank sides if really needed, to get a speaker to sit in full depth upright... any mods here should be hidden by the loco frame running full length for this loco!! 

Time is on our side for now, so there is not an immediate rush to get thru this part, as WE are also wrestling with the battery power issue to fit inside also, and taken as a whole - space for all the boards needed too!! 

It is a large loco as such. But that means being a double loco in 'ONE' that it has more stuff to fit indoors to complete this also. So space can become a premium if not careful in the long run. 

THX - Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Then again using several of the 2 in - they are small enough to fit in 3-4 in a paired sets and not fill the tank either, and increase the total air movement effect! 


Dirk


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

In my opinion the size of the magnet is not really very important in our application. For one thing, different materials have different degrees of magnetic flux. Lots of bass players want speakers with neodymium magnets, because they can be smaller and much much,lighter and still deliver the same performance. But also we aren't dealing with a lot of power here. I'm not sure what a Titan is capable of producing, but I doubt it's more than five watts. Five watts will get really loud, especially if there's not a lot of bass content. So I wouldn't assume a speaker with a big magnet is going to be a better speaker.

A couple years ago I did some experiments with porting, cutting a hal inch hole and adding tubes of different lengths. I put a speaker in the boiler of an aristo pacific, and then put a port in the back head. It made a very significant difference, but I couldn't figure out how to manage the effect, partly because it's hard to get reliable specs on speakers, and we have very irregular "cabinets" to deal with. You can often improve the sound of small speakers by making a small enclosure for th back of the speaker, I've often used the caps from small spray cans


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Frankly My issue with speaker magnets really pertains to their physical sizes and how they 'fit' in the space that can be worked with in Our small locos.. yes!... small given the speakers we try to install in 'em.. 

It would be difficult as you say to ascertain the quality of reproduction or the effect of a certain magnet material on the same, without extensive testing equipment and a sound lab to work in... Way beyond our needs to try and deal with... 

Enclosure 'Science' is probably beyond us for our uses! How large of an enclosure or how many cubic inches do we need for each different speaker, or quality of speaker even could be different! 

I am willing to go with an enclosure, but it will have to be with-in the confines of a fuel tank, right or wrong!! 

Porting is a good idea, but only would come from testing / trying various ports sizes... so this could be a drawn out exercise to get the best sound, for any given loco!! 

There just are not any real hard and fast rules or guide lines to go by here! 

The 'speaker world' is a very vast subject... 

THX - Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Just thinking out loud here......... 

I could place a 1/2 or 3/4 inch tubed port facing the front center of the fuel tank with all the speakers towards the rear - of course facing down. This should have the effect of sending the ported sound towards the front of the loco, while the bulk of the sound would be laying on the rails! 

The entire tank could be the enclosure, with a access cover over the open top area, sealing that off. 

As the tank is over 15 inches long this should give a reasonable size volume also! 

Dirk -DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I pulled this off of QSI's site - just a comment I found about enclosures... 

............................."Generally, for all model railroad speaker applications the larger the enclosure the better the sounds." 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Please correct Me if I'm wrong ... 

Does the Titan come in a sound only board?... 

Or does it also provide motor control functions?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dirk, 
The QSI board is a dual function board.... most think of it as a loco controler plus sound. Although this latest version has changed that perspective somewhat. It's a DCC board, to fully utilize all it's featues ya need to go that route, I think... always risky heh heh, you can use an Airwire throttle with most features... 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I am a little rusty with this stuff... 

How does the DCC relate to a battery power only scenario? 

Have been listening to the 645 - 16 cylinder sound files...just need two of 'em it looks like... 

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Not very well ... DCC uses the rails to send signals to decoders. That's why I mentioned the Airwire, you can go battery with that method... but not as well as with conventional DCC. 
The other batt way is to use Del's or Tony's boards and R/C ESCs. I'm using Del's R/C stuff. 
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

As this is a High Power-ed loco, We need high powered control boards! 

And batteries are the only option for this also! 

Think of it as a wolf in sheep's clothing,,, 2 locos in 1 ( 4 motors ) 

Dirk


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The way to run qsi with batteries is via what qsi calls a "gwire" card. It's a receiver that plugs into the qsi Titan card. Then you would use either the Airwire throttle or NCE's gwire throttle. Both of them send DCC commands over the air, so in some ways you get the best of both worlds---DCC functionality plus battery power.

The downside is that the gwire cards add cost. Last time I checked, a while ago, they were near one hundred bucks a pop. 

So you would set up your batteries to the track power connections on the Titan board, and your motor to the motor connections, and then plug the gwire card in, and using either the Airwire throttle or the NCE gwire throttle, run the loco on DCC signals over the air


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are both 6 amp and 10 amp versions of the QSI units. Your loco will not draw 10 amps. 

The Gwire receiver will be cheaper than a second decoder... and I think they are $114. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ah - but a single SD70 - USAT can pull down a max rated of 7 amps - per loco 

Now - think twice that, & I get 14 amp max - as a min. safe requirement for a power supply thru a board or boards,... 

OR,... am I back to needing to use two Titan boards for power and sound here ,if so then 2 - 10 amp boards will work.. 

Matt already uses AirWire transmitters and will stay with these!! 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And since I have not run DCC - what features would this provide? 

Dirk


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

WAY more than other systems... how about 10 lighting outputs, true scale miles per hour calibration, sounds that change just like the prototype under true load and coasting. 32 different sounds that can be configured for volume, automatic or manual operation, fader between 2 different speakers, "real" notching... 

The list goes on and on... you might download the 267 page manual and JUST look at the table of contents... the list of features will be easy to see. 

It's really a new step forward in sound that others will have to catch up to... 

Just the fact that the unit runs 2 separate prime mover sound systems no one else does. 

It depends on what you want to do... if you REALLY want all the bells and whistles. 

On the amperage... you have to understand that basically, the current draw on a loco is related to the load, not really the number of motors. A 50 car train that draws 7 amps on a 2 motor diesel will draw almost the IDENTICAL current on a 2 motor diesel.

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Help me here Greg, re-read your last sentence again!!!??? 

I did get that given a constant load the realized motor loads may not vary much, if at all....regardless of the number of motors providing power... 

I was mostly curious as to the functions for motor control that DCC provides - or are they focused only towards sound functions...? 

Dirk


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Greg you got me on your last statement ? sorry did not relies dirk was posting also


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I do not think Matt will load the DD40 too heavily, pulling a pass. train 

I do know he has mentioned pulling a 100 car / 100 ton hopper freight drag also!! 

Got a reply from QSI today, they will have a sound file for a DDA40X out in a couple months! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Also, now that we are progressing along on this... 

Any practical idea of radio ranges using both the AirWire controller and a QSI decoder/recvr together..? 

Dirk


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I used QSI with GWire and the Airwire throttle for a while--the range was excellent, and I never had any problems with it. It would regularly over 50 feet away. I believe it's 900 hz. 

The advantages of DCC....Dcc is like a tweaker's paradise. You can set all sorts of parameters. For example, the rate of acceleration and deceleration, so you can have the loco start really slowly, like the prototype, and slow down very very gradually. You can set it to whatever you want. You can precisely match the speed of two different locos. You can adjust each one of the sounds individually in various ways. You can turn a bunch of lights and things on and off. It's kind of endless. The basic setup, though is easy--give the loco an address number and start running. DCC is a lot of fun


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Range really depends on where you put the antenna, what type of antenna, and local interference. 

I'd count on 40-50 feet. Done right with no local interference you could expect double that or a bit more. 

I know there are people who have gotten 300 feet, i.e. they say they ring the bell or honk the horn, but range means that you have GOOD control. 

I have a 900 MHz full duplex system, that must run at lower power, and I get 50 foot reliably. 

Greg


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