# Leveling of turnouts



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi folks,

I've seen in several threads that keeping turnouts level is very important, to guard against derailments, and I've been designing & setting my roadbed accordingly.

Now, I'm working a spot where there is a lead-in grade of ~1.7%, a turnout, about 15' of level track, another turnout, and then an exiting grade (~1.4%). At least that was the plan. 

However, due to the concrete forming method I'm using, it would be far easier to make the whole section in the same plane, not bothering with forcing the turnouts back to level. This would result in an even grade of 0.8% overall.

So here's the question. Would this slight of a grade constitute a derailment invitation? Also, perhaps I've been misreading the "level" requirement all along, that it applies side-to-side (which I'm careful to do), and not necessarily longitudinally? Or maybe there's other issues than derailment to consider here?

Thanks very much,

===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Really does not have to be level from one end to the other, but needs cross level to be perfect (you called it side to side). 

Still not a great idea, but it can work. Be very fastidious with your trackwork around it also and you will have no problems. 

(keep the tracks before and after the switch same grade, for at least a car length.) 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, will do! 

Also, I figure that flattening it out like this might help in not requiring the rails to do all that vertical undulation through the area. 

And I'll be fastidious! 

Thanks also for the speedy reply, I'm out there pounding stakes as we speak (I came in for a beer, using this response to your email as an excuse, ha ha). 

===Cliff


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Try thinking in different terms here for switches guys! Think about "flat surfaces through a switch" or a "plane surface" , separate from say a level or O percent grade. A switch can be on any grade, as long as it is the same grade for the entire length of the switch, plus some safety factor before and after the switch, but more so on the point end of a switch. Also a switch can be "banked" so long as the banking is constant for the whole switch, no twisting effect again through the switch, esp. the point areas are the most critical and just past the frog. After that a siding can do any thing you want...Hope this clarifies your thoughts some! Dirk , DMS Ry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A switch can be on any grade 
What Dirk said. 

Switches/turnouts need to be flat - with all the rail joints it is easy to develop a kink at the frog, for example. But they don't need to be level in the grade sense. Your locos expect the next bit of rail to be the same as the last bit, not changing height, grade or tilting sideways.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

What Greg, Dirk and Pete said, ha ha! I'm jiggy with all of it, 'cause it all makes perfect mechanical sense! Thanks to all of you, for taking the voodoo out of it. 

I suppose with larger layouts, it's easy enough to make the vertical curvature transition. But in this case described, I've also been a little worried about vertical kinks in the rail joints to perfectly-leveled (in both directions) switches (in addition to making the concrete forms cooperate with that geometry). Doing it all in the same plane (as I alluded to at first) resolves that. But I needed the pros to swing in, and 'splain the fact of life. And you did.

Thanks again fellas, and I hope Irene is kind to your layouts and homes (in that order, ha ha!) this weekend, 

===Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 26 Aug 2011 01:27 PM 
Also a switch can be "banked" so long as the banking is constant for the whole switch, no twisting effect again through the switch, esp. the point areas are the most critical and just past the frog. After that a siding can do any thing you want...Hope this clarifies your thoughts some! Dirk , DMS Ry 

I wouldn't draw that general conclusion.

In some cases (e.g., AristoCraft 10-foot turnouts) the points and guard rails are sloppy and the flanges riding up on the frog tilts the train to select the proper direction through the diverging path. If the turnout is banked such that this height differential now goes the other way, you could get a case where some railcars could be more prone to derailment through the frog.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Small disagreement (my opinion) with Dirk. 

The crosslevel of the switch should be dead flat. If you have one side of the switch higher than the other you risk more derailments because you are biasing the wheels in one direction "across" the switch. 

In a perfect world, with everything in gage, and proper flangeways and frog geometries , this should not matter, but we have grossly large flangeways, poor back to back tolerances, frogs with huge holes in front of the frog point, wide wing rail flangeways, tight gauge through the closure rails, etc. 

So, keep that cross level perfect, my opinion (and experience). 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have a double cross over mounted on a steel plate. It is on a 1 % grade ( maybe a little more) It is level side to side and works fine 

JJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Greg, your opinion is well stated by the very nature of the battles in working in G-scale and it's less than perfect products, and lack of standards. No offense taken. You clearly have a more practical grasp of the over all issues than I have so far!! As was obvious I was talking of track work more in a general sense than all the challenges we really face daily with our toys. Just more motivation for me to continue to lay rail by hand and build my own switches...I'm currently working out the details of a switch install myself here at home! 

Thanks for your wisdom Greg! 

Dirk - DMS Ry 

Happy rails to all!!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Ha ha ha! JJ, only you would have track mounted to a steel plate!







I love your build it tough or go home attitude.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you Dirk, no matter how poorly I write, it's always intended to be helpful... and to help others avoid the mistakes and problems I have made and encountered! 

I've learned a lot of things about turnouts and trackwork from reading, trying different things and also two very smart friends of mine who "experiment" along with me on trackwork and standards. 

I've still got a lot of things to learn, but finally, the correlation between the measurements and geometry of track and reliable running is working, that is, there is cause and effect, it's no longer magic, ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi JJ, 

Nice confirmation -- a cluster of four switches on a 1% slope seems to settle things! 

I like what Randy said, ha ha! Seriously, did you put the crossover and adjacent track on the steel plate, to help reduce the grade for everything if things started derailing? Or to make things serviceable? Or....? 

Dirk and Greg -- thanks again for helping me understand the issues. 

===Cliff


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

I will put this out there for what it is worth. In my experience moving through turnouts in a forward motion (pulling the train) and backing through turnouts (pushing the train) are two very different animals. All the deficiencies that Greg mentioned are amplified in the backing move and the "levelness" (side to side) becomes hugely important. I have had turnouts I could blow through pulling but could not back through for love or money. Seems like these turnouts always wind up on my spurs or in my switching yards were of course backing is unavoidable. These usually turn out to be "caricature builders". 
Ted


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good points, Ted.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

My 2 cents: The track leading into the turnout should be perfectly level with the turnout and perfect straight for at least the length of your longest car or loco. Use a yardstick. Even if it's on a grade, there should be no grade changes on or through the turnout, for at least a car length in all directions. Going from a curve into a turnout's points is a losing proposition. Side to side level is necessary as well. Sadly, we're stuck wtih #6, #4, and #Impossibly_Sharp turnouts. It would be nice to have some #8. The prototype considers a #14 turnout a 40mph max switch, and anything less Restricted speed. A high speed (70mph) turnout on the UP is a #20 with movable frogs... 

And, I agree with Greg explicitly. The lack of standards and commonality is embarrassing. We could EASILY use scaled down prototype standards in our scale, we really don't need to have N-Scale oversize rail and wheel contours scaled up... 

Robert


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So, If one of you could so indulge me, I would send a pic of my work - such that someone else could post it here for all to see. It is on my 'puter and not stored elsewhere... if you get my drift, guys!!! 

Thanks, good info too, 

Dirk, DMS Ry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Shameless plug: Sign up for 1st class membership, you can store files on the site, and get an enhanced editor that makes it easy to format your text, upload pictures, etc. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks for the offer, Greg. IT is not within my current budget however! 

So if any one wants to know more about my track work and home brew switches, just send me a message...... 

I guess I do not know all the rules here. I was not trying to step on toes!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I originally started with four LGB 1600 switches. It was a single cross over and then a cross over right back. It was on a open floor steel bridge so I put a steel plate under it. I never had any trouble at all with the switches.

They were level in all directions. So after that I put a steel plate under every switch. 1/4 or 1/8 inch thick. I had hillmen clamps on everything for ease of maintenance. Only once in a while I had to remove a stray stone from the switches other than that I never had any problems.


Then I got a smoking deal on 4 Aristo long switches that everyone had trouble with. I made a concrete base 2 inches thick for the switches and the X cross in the middle. Well when I was installing and checking everything I found a dip in the concrete right in the middle. 


Right away I cut a steel plate for under the track. I forget the length but it is 4 inches longer than the total assembly of t he cross over giving me 2 inches on each end of the approach to the cross over assembly.

It is wide enough to include the switch stands but I do not have them mounted yet. 

This whole assembly is on a grade. I have no problems with the switches. They work great. I have had cars uncouple and roll down hill blasting trough the cross over . ( The uncouple problem is a different story.) 



JJ 

PS The switches are NOT anchored to the steel plate.

PPS This is not a good picture but it may help


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Feel free to send me the pictures Dirk, [email protected]. I'll be happy to post them for you., 

You can send any resolution, the higher the better. 

Send about 5 megs at a time if you send multiple pictures. 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 31 Aug 2011 10:31 PM 
Thanks for the offer, Greg. IT is not within my current budget however! 

So if any one wants to know more about my track work and home brew switches, just send me a message...... 

I guess I do not know all the rules here. I was not trying to step on toes!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry Hey Dirk, good to have you aboard.
Greg wasn't impying anything about you. His promoting the Site was 'shameless', that's all.
Take him up on his offer to post for you, I'd make the same offer but I'm lazy today and he has.

Happy Rails
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Greg, Thank you for your help!!!! Pix in the mail.... 

John, you sure have an interesting grasp on life, I like it!! WE should meet sometime, I think. If I'm not lost - ha - we only live about 1 hour from each other. In AZ , right? 

The pic of course shows my dabbling with switches. I also try new things, and find laying rail and switches to be far more economical for me, to enjoy and have a layout at home. I'm also building a clear deck flat car for the track inspection crew to use with all track work! 

Thanks guys, 
Dirk - DMS Ry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On the road to ride the Napa Valley wine train, back tonight, 
Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice pic, and nice work, John! 

===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)




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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Those are Dirk's pics, right? Wow, lots of nice craftsmanship there! 

Looks like you might be in a fairly dry climate, Dirk? 

===Cliff


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Dirk, 
What number is that? It looks like it's a mile long! Very nice work , I the the "point spreaders?" the bars right near the throwbar. Great attention to detail.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, those are his... they look really long and graceful... maybe #10 or higher? It's so long you can't even get the frog and the points in the same picture! 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I also like the two extra point bars, looks nice and sturdy. 
Dirk, is that SS rail / joiners? 
The reason I asked about climate relates to my interest in your double-layer roadbed substrate & adhesive. Very interesting; how's it holding up with rain or, if you get it, snow? 
===Cliff 

PS, 'nuther 'shameless plug': I'd like to see (and I'm sure others would) progress pics, so why not bite the bullet and become a member? For me, being able to put up pics through the year and have people comment is clearly worth the price of a couple movie tickets, ha ha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Greg, I notice you posted those after 1am. Wow, what commitment. 

===Cliff 

PS, Either that, or you couldn't sleep after all that good fun, food and wine, on the train ride...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK guys - here I am!!! Again, Greg thank you very much for your help and that "commitment" - you could have waited till the am, man!! Hope the ride was relaxing and fun!! 

I live in S. E. Arizona, at 4700 foot elevation, 1 mile West of the Dragoon Summit, built by the SP in 1881 - reaching Dragoon in June, coming from Yuma on the way to El Paso, TX. It is dry here, yes, not as HOT as Tucson or Phoenix can become, maybe up to 100 for the higher temps most of the time, snow comes twice in winter getting down to 10-15 during cold spells that go away in a few days, the sun comes out and it gets warm again!! I live just about 1/4 mile above the tracks, N., and watch real stuff go by all day!!!! This am there was a great multi - media freight that went by! I like all the colors on cars, great for ideas - ha, toooo many of 'em !! 

Most of my track is built above ground, ties glued with Tite Bond 3, then Min Wax stains over the ties and the glued areas also. WE get rain. Lots of Monsoon stuff in the summers. Nothing glued this way has been affected at all. I have some cribbing walls built of cedar strips only glued, with/out stain, for a couple of years, - nothing has happened to 'em. The ties - redwood 2x4's cut into 3/8" squares, from 3.5 in long blocks, are glued to Hardy board 8" trim siding, one full size and the second 4 in. wide for the roadbed, good ballast fill will fall off the sides naturally. I'm running a double track main, so the two 8" Hardy boards have a space between them of about 1.5 inches for drainage into the dirt fill up to the roadbed surface. The two layers for the roadbed are also glued with Tite Bond 3, with the 4in. piece on top - primer side up, these are glued and screwed to a modified ladder system built from landscape pipe for the balance of the support structure. Risers are cemented each 2 feet, 10-12 inches in the ground. None of the support system will show once back filled with dirt and scenery. 

What's that, oh ya the BIG ? 

OK boys, grab a chair and sit down!! 

The switch is made from rail, - 6 feeeeet long. It is a number 14, a copy of the main-line switches here. These are for all the primary main line work. Number 10's and 8's will work for sidings and less important rail work.... All rail is aluminum - code 250. And the frogs are machined brass parts - with the rails screwed to the rear of the frog itself. Switch Crafters did all my custom mill work on the rails and frog, with guard rails also. I, however, now am going to make my own guard rails on the straight stock rail side only, after seeing the real ones again a few days ago. These a very long, like maybe 12-15 feet long, and are spring loaded and do not have the bent ends typical of a guard rail. So I will make something also quite long - just filing a shallow angle on each end to pull the flanges in when the wheels go thru. So why did I go with custom switches you might ask? They were very reasonable and very affordable. The work is just what you see, fantastic. I have done a lot to set it up and get it right and on ties, still need to make installation tools to make it real easy to build and lay all my following switches in the future. And I wanted a smooth flowing switch that was not a problem, for any loco to get thru, or set of cars - or heaven forbid - maybe even a long train someday! Frankly, these cost far less for the parts than if I bought something already made on ties, the mill work is consistent, which gives good service across all following switches. A win- win ... 

They look fantastic too. I like 'em... let's play trains Guys!!!!! 

Also, I probably should mention that all the small pins are no. 20 x 3/8ths long brass - round heads. They are soldered to the underside of the brass point spreaders, as well as the "pc strip" throw bar, that is copper clad on the bottom also. All the pins are cut off near the 1/4" puddle of solder, and hand filed down to a smooth finish, about 1/16" high. This way - they will not snag on anything that may get under the moving parts, no never... well. I use a 250 watt soldering gun, for fast work here. The idea is to have a consistent tight fitting, yet is free to move with out drag. A easy way to go. Always the same results too! Frankly, I am totally amazed how well the points are working now!!! This has to be the best switch I have built in my life!! The brass spreader ends overlap the stock rails ( underneith ) and do not allow the points to float up during movement! I have built switches for HO and HOn3 since my teens, so this is my first BIG switch. What a world of difference, so much more enjoyable to work on!! 

A couple of mornings ago, I went down to the tracks and took pics of the low profile switch motor drives that move a real switch. I intend to build covers that look the part to hide linkage from the throw bar to the bell crank dropping thru the roadbed surface, below to a gear - reduction drive system, with tiny servo based motor, that operates on 3-5 volts. I will run these from a 6 volt solar battery for the system. No noisy air compressors driving air rams for me! I expect to set a voltage, such that the points will take 3-4 seconds, not over 5 seconds to fully move! 

What else, that was a mouth full for now? Thanks, I'll consider further member ship in a few months, right now My Wife is getting ready to start her Masters program in Nursing - while working full time. I have my hands full and the $ bills are in short supply.... I appreciate your help and support, plus your interest. It has taken me about 2 1/2 years to get to where I can start laying rail. Design work was just like a real railroad, walking and figuring, no paper plans here.. would not work at all! 

Dirk, - DMS Ry.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Dirk, 

I'm a newbie, but for what it's worth, your work looks amazing. No. 14 turnouts? Wow! 

I really like how you are replicating the prototype, in a very specific manner. Switch drives and all. For me, I'm trying to compress a very specific prototypical setting into a very limited area, almost like a big diorama one can wade into. 

What makes this hobby great though is that it encompasses so many avenues of expression and focus. So while I can only use #6 turnouts at the max in my application, I can stand back and say WOW to your #14's, in yours. 

So keep us posted! I wanna know how your PVC pipe and roadbed structure works for you, over time. Also, can you post a diagram of your overall layout intentions? 

Best regards, 
===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Also Dirk, was there a turnout leveling issue seen in your photos? I couldn't see any!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Cliffy, I would highly recommend you build as large as you can, given the space you have! I do not know how many folks I have talked too... If one comment would come up it was always this - they wish they had built larger curves.... I did not want this to happen to me. I am building with plenty of open space. This will be my first and my last out door layout, so I decided "I had to get it right", the first time. I have made errors that have been rectified during the process, and I'm sure there will be others to follow later. It is all good, and I keep learning how to build outdoors!! I have not been in a rush or a hurry so a great deal of time passes, giving me the opportunity to see problems occur that might need to be changed sometimes, so these have become my learning lessons! So Far - I'm keeping up with my lessons and not creating long term problems with this. 

As far as a leveling issue with this switch - no. I did the work needed to avoid that concern in the first place. The road bed does sit level side to side, as it is on a straight section of the mainline. However what may not show, is the .25 % grade up hill from the frog towards the points. Or my work to make the switch area (level), straight thru the length of the switch, all during the road bed construction, which included using a 6 foot long aluminum straight edge to keep the ladder system, the road bed and then the ties all on a "plane surface" , checking and working with each layer of the process - with out any drops or low spots in the area of the switch, or bumps too! My ties are glued last, just like a indoor layout. Then they are top sanded with a very long sanding board I built for my R/C airplane wings - typically used to sand all the ribs flush to each other!! It is built from 2 aluminum angles, with 80 grit paper glued on the sanding surface. 

The one thing I have also learned is the ease with which adjustments can be made or problems rectified using the PVC pipe, it is simply a matter of cutting and gluing. So mistakes never really become a big issue to fix. Let me tell you - building a large layout will come with many mistakes... There is so much I have to keep in my head all the time when I work on it. And so many sketches for this or that. One of my challenges was trying to figure out what and how I was going to attach wood ties to, to make this all work for me. Cement was out, and hearing from others is still a process filled with smoothness issues to get track even when installed...I have seen people us tile shims to make up for rough and uneven cement to get the track to flow evenly....It is all work , no matter..! 

If you send me you're "e" - I could send a layout track plan to 'ya!! It's in color and really shows the mainline only, little of the sidings are drawn in so as not to make the drawing too complex to follow. Another item in my head, I was focusing on the overall main line only when I drew it up, also freehand. It gives an idea tho. The layout represents the present day as I see it here, and the best of the past also. There will be a Modern day Excursion Narrow Gauge train that is a separate included layout, but is not in the main drawing. 

Thx - Dirk - DMS Ry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I might add that my choices in the Hybrid ladder PVC system were based on my being able to stand on the two ladder pipes with a spread support of 24 inches under neath. I started out using 1" sched. 40 pipe for the runners, this supported me well. Then I tried Composite decking material ripped into 3 parts... It was stronger, but cost a lot more, and has a flat top surface which is nice, but that was all. When I went back for more last winter, the price had gone up almost 10 bucks for one piece of decking. Boy what a shock that was - no way was any more coming home with me. So right in the store I reconfigured my work so far. I settled on the next larger size of PVC pipe moving to 1 1/4" sched. 40 pipe. The price was nominal over the 1" stuff, so does not make an impact on me. It is even stronger yet. It is also easy to insert a smaller 1" joiner system I came up with to splice the pipe into a continuous runner without bumps, allowing me do just keep adding pipes together, as progress moves on. So this leaves me moving ahead with normal progress, but also doing re-work on older sections to bring them up to the new standard... fun 

I have a rule here tho, "No Walking on the Track".... 

I have noticed when I visit other layouts, that some have this very same rule. 

My other rule - simply ......... "Have fun" 

Dirk - DMS Ry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Do we want to go private discussing My layout or does a new topic thread need to be started here? Progress is of necessity slow, but I can give a broad overview of where I'm going with this!! 

We're starting to go past the principals of laying switches for a layout I think... 

Dirk - DMS Ry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sure Dirk, why not start a thread or two, just to talk about your track & stuff? 

BTW, you might to just link to pictures you can store for free on, say, Photobucket. See example: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/8/aft/113534/afv/topic/Default.aspx#139121 

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Love to see more of your work Dirk! 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I know you guys stay on top of everything here. So I probably don't need to mention that I did start a new thread on my layout and track work for you to follow along with!! 

I have enjoyed and appreciate everyone's help here. Look for "DMS Ry. - One Man's Journey" 

THX, 
Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like the switch points fit under the stock rail kind of line Simpson under cut switch points. Looks good but either the pick is deceiving or the switch point is still a little to thick. Later RJD


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ah,... the world of deceiving pics! They get US every time, don't they... The points fit very well against the stock rail pockets, the very point tip has a small bevel filed to keep wheels from catching it, and the pocket also has a slight relief for wheels going in the other direction. So far no problems have been rolled over.......... ! 

Also the snap gauge is in the way of some of these important details, just enough! As I complete the assembly of this switch I will add more pix. ( over on DMS Ry. - One Man's Journey.. ) 

Dirk, - DMS Ry.


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