# How many triggers?



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

yet another break-out topic from the Revolution discussion...

Just out of curiosity, how many functions does the average user actually use? For instance, most sound systems have a coupler clank sound that can be mapped to one of the function keys. Sure, you can trigger it at will, but prototypically, it's triggered when the train couples or uncouples. I can't speak for everyone, but when I couple to my train, I'm hitting the "stop" button, not the "make coupler sound" button. I'd rather have it mapped to the stop button, and have something like two or three short whistles mapped to the forward/reverse keys. Or, how many of us manually trigger air pumps, coal shovels, or stuff like that? 

I'm not implying the ability to control such sounds is frivolous, but I'm trying to get a handle on how much of a realistic drawback the inability to fully control such sounds actually is. The new Aristo stuff can handle 6 extra triggers, the RCS stuff I have handles 4, but I don't know what Tony's current stuff can handle. Is that sufficient for most of us, or is it akin to a car without power windows? 

Later,

K


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This sounds like an ad for the automatic sounds you get with Phoenix. Which I think is still the best. And the most cost. I do use the Conductor announcement from LGB when we have visitors to show off. Also have a couple of trigger magnets, all the rest is automatic.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I like automation of sounds. I think the novelty of manual triggered sounds wears thin in a hurry. Now if you are doing serious operations, manual control of the whistle for special signaling is probably a good thing. I think two triggers, one for the whistle, one for the bell, and maybe one more for some gadget function is more than enough.

During my first year of touring garden railroads in Denver trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I met a guy that was just pleased as punch that he could manually trigger his whistle and bell from his transmitter. As I wandered around his railroad looking around, I heard him tell the same story to everyone that came to visit. Finally, after some 30-40 minutes of seeing it all, I was ready to leave ... I just had to ask him ... Tell me sir, do you ever press that button to sound the whistle?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the average user will use 2 sounds or less. Bell and Whistle or maybe nothing. 

I never claimed I was an average user. 

I use all the stuff the QSI can do, and it's a **** of a lot of fun and has added another dimension to my enjoyment of my railroad. 

Besides the horn and whistle, I use the "heavy load" feature, and the doppler shift features a lot, they are very popular with visitors. Coupler clank, air hose letoff is nice and the brakes squealing and several others. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

I had coupler clank on my On30 Consolidation. After whacking a few cars pushing the coupler clank button, instead of rolling the throttle dial, that feature was quickly abandoned. Even if it could be triggered by compressing the engines coupler and tripping a micro-switch, I think the novelty would wear off quickly.

The whistle and bell are safety devices, so I thought those were necessary. But the piercing bell quickly became annoying and wasn’t used much. The whistle was also turned down and used less and less. Even the chuff was turned down after a while, and on some days turned off entirely. 

I have already hooked up one of the 6 triggers on the TE to shut off my Phoenix 2K2 sound board in my Gp-40, and I’ve only been bench testing it for two days. That’s after I used the Phoenix Programming Package to lower the volume on the bell and horn, and eliminate the auto functions. Now the horn and bell can only be triggered manually.

Based on what our club does, I would say six triggers would be more than enough. When you are already juggling a two-way radio, a throttle, a list of switching assignments, a Kadee uncoupling tool, a switch points brush, manually throwing switches, and operating a locomotive while trying to figure out how to drop three cars in a spur with one car length left, I don’t think a throttle full of buttons is going to get much use.

But I guess it has a lot to do with what you enjoy. Our club members enjoy running trains in a prototypical manner and switching cars in and out. Other people I have met, like to sit with their favourite beverage and watch the trains go round and round as they play with the different features available to them with a push of a button. What ever makes you happy!


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

K.... I've hooked up 4 of the functions on the new TE with a Sierra diesel module. # 1 is Horn, 2 is bell (latched), 3 is dynamic brake and 4 is coupler clank. I use 1 and 2 the most. The horn and bell are also triggered by track magnets using reed switches installed in parallel with pins 13 and 14 in the Sierra module. The RC/Adapter add-on needs to be used with the diesel modules to isolate the PWC for speed ramp up. 

The system works very well with Sierra.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Good topic Kevin. 

The current RCS systems have four functions controls. 
There are three sound trigger connections. The fourth function turns the lights ON-OFF. 
Four more functions are available with an extra plug in decoder. 

It has been my experience that the most anyone really wants for normal operation are two. Whistle/Horn and Bell. 
 When Sierra was available the Blow down could be triggeredby the third function. 
Dallee has a Whistle/Horn, Bell and Force Notch 8 for diesels which I find useful. 
The Phoenix P5 + P5T has Whistle/Horn, Bell and Grade crossing Whistle/Horn, as well as a number of extra triggerable functions, some of which are potentially useful. 
The extra functions I use with steam are Manual airpump, Coal loading and Water Fill. For diesels Rev Up, (tap up one notch at a time) Loco Shutdown and Dynamic Brake whine. 
Most of the other Phoenix functions can be set to work pretty well on automatic.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

I wish I had more fuctions then the 14 I have now 

can hardly wait for the new 401 throttle with 28 fuctions 

some of the sounds like coal fill or water fill sounds or blow down work well when you are first preping a loco for a train 

others like break squal I feel work best on auto trigger 

station stops on the LGB trolley are good for some fun as is the sound of change droping 


I suppose you could leave things like coal auger on automatic but I like to control it 

I have played with doppler shift but did not feel it was real effective 

coupler clank you can trigger with a microswitch hooked to the coupler ... this would save a buttion but I hook that (f3) to also make the electric coupler work so it uncouples and you get the sound at the same time 


with others I have used dynamic brake sound going downhill and load going up hill 

also having both playable and grade crossing horns on two fuctions helps so you dont have to "play" the gradecrossing every time you can hit just one fuction 


also sometimes if you add sounds to other parts of the train it is nice to have them all on the same number as the loco .... so you have more of a train number then a loco number 

with these you can have things like horn in the caboose for backing up or simple things like a card game in the caboose ..... or generator sounds under the passinger cars or reefer sounds or mooing 

or you could add station announcements or a all aboard to a passenger car or even cargo loading to a box car or baggage 

I know one guy that has I guy yelling let me out I am traped in this boxcar 


so to me the more keys you have the more chances you have to wow the people that come to see your world


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04/08/2009 10:30 PM

Besides the horn and whistle, I use the "heavy load" feature, and the doppler shift features a lot, they are very popular with visitors. Coupler clank, air hose letoff is nice and the brakes squealing and several others. 



I do the same--but I have to admit what I would most like is a whistle I could control better. Quillable, as on the latest MTH DCS release, or even just as set of whistle sounds--short peeps and long blast that sound different. Especially with steam whistles. You could really "play" a steam whistle. You could tell who was driving a train by his distinctive whistle. I'd like to have that feature. 


Be cool to have the throttle knob switch to controlling the whistle, for example. Press button X, and the throttle knob/dial would control the velocity of the "steam" flowing through the whistle. Then press "X" again and you're back to controlling speed. A little dangerous, maybe, but it'd be a lot of fun. MTH has it--it's enough to make me want to switch to MTH



The sound of a steam whistle is one of the most distincitive and familiar sounds in American history--it shows up in music and literature and poetry all over the place. But on al the sound cards, the whistle mostly just goes toooot.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

As Paul has pointed out in his post, OVGRS engineers are wayyy too busy making their train function prototypically to worry much about wowing whoever may be looking on. 

The bell and whistle are essential for operation as they are normal signals ... similarly the ability to control lights is fundamentally important though many will want their lights automatic by direction. Since lights for most of the steam era were not normally lit in the daytime. I like to be able to turn them off. In the diesel era, MU'ed diesels should have lights out but number boards lit. In Canada since 1983, ditchlights must be displayed (not flashing) on the loco front on the mainline beyond yard limits and since 2001, both ends of locos must have ditchlights. More sophisticated control triggers are needed to display proper lighting especially since American laws/practices were different in this area. 

Other features may have some value to some users but in a regular operating environment, they will simply go unused. The handheld Tx becomes increasingly complex and expensive as more buttons are added - and the demand will then be there for a cheaper less fully featured Tx that controls the important features related to operating a locomotive doing some actual railroad work. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One small point Doug, the handhelds are already capable of handling 10 functions, since they all have a 10 digit keypad on them that is not used for anything else when the loco is actually running, that is the way the TE and the AirWire and the Digitrax and the NCE and the Massoth, and the Lenz and (need I go on?) work.... 

So controlling 10 functions does not add more buttons or complexity to the handheld unit. Now... REMEMBERING what function does what certainly does. That's why the more "friendly" controllers have at leas a horn, bell, and headlight button dedicated.... 

I'm just addressing this point only... it's clear where you guys are at... it's just to difficult to do when you run trains... 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 04/09/2009 7:33 AM
As Paul has pointed out in his post, OVGRS engineers are wayyy too busy making their train function prototypically to worry much about wowing whoever may be looking on. 




Pardon me but shouldn't "trying to make their engine function protoypically" include having it make all the prototypical sounds at all the right times? I'm not sure why, say, appearance" counts as prototypical and is judged as such, and operation in the sense of having the right kind of couplers counts but sound does not? That makes no sense to me. In a real situaton, an engineer entering a yard would signal in his own distinctive way, and everyone in the yard would know that "so and so is here." I'm not sure why sound is dismissed as not part of that. What's prototypical about a silent steam engine? 


Speaking for myself I like wowing visitors and I like trying to operate in a prototypical manner. It seems to me they don't have to be seperated.

And it's not like it's hard to trigger a sound while backing up to a string of cars. You just push a button. On DCC, at least, you have good control over the momentum and with experience, you learn how and when the engine will slow to a stop. It's not very complicated, and I'm a novice


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Whilst I can understand the enthusiasm for sound systems to enhance the prototypical experience, I know of many largescalers who have had sound fitted to their pride and joy only to end up turning it off as being too annoying. 
Especially the chuff and diesel motor roar, both of which can become very monotonous after even a short period of time. Most leave the Whistle/Horn and Bell alive as that is what they want to use to replicate prototype practice when running. 
I do understand the importance of having controllable correct lighting capabilities.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree sounds can get monotonous, but one of the really nice things about the QSI is the way the sound timbre and volume changes with load--much less monotonous. And they are suppposed to be releasing an improved set of sound fies soon. But I agree--being able to turn the sound off is a good thing


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I was "wowed" when a visitor brought over his Airwire/Phoenix sound equipped locomotive. I had to get one! I can do the brake squeal, the water filling, the coupler clank, and others I can't even remember. 

Well, it turns out I use the whistle about the most. I seldom use the bell, unless the neighborhood kids come by. The other stuff I have to remember which button triggers what.


I like the chuff sound a lot, but I really wish it was more realistic. I was amazed when I was watching the EBT Mike move onto the turntable - it was SO QUIET. Sure, when it got going, you could hear those chuffs, but at low speed it was a lot quieter than my sound equipped locomotive.


I don't need "Fireman Fred" or much of anything else. I would really like a nice sound system that could do multiple sounds at once (bell, whistle, and chuff) and cost about $50. 


I don't want automatic triggers. I want to manually ring the bell and blow the whistle. I turn off all of the automatic stuff in the Phoenix. Chuff is controlled via a reed switch.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Thsi is what I have been using on my diesels. There sometimes will be a variation for a particular diesel type but this is typical. I'm using Airwire , Phoenix P5 and TCS FL4 for light effects. I standardize the assignments as much as possible so its easy to remember for any diesel I happen to run.

F1 Bell
F2 Horn
F3 Grade crossing horn sequence
F4 Dynamic brakes
F5 Ditch light or gyra light on/off
F6 diesel working sound(sounds great with a heavy train)
F7 Volume up
F8 Volume down
F9 Diesel notch run up
F10 Diesel notch down
F11 Roof beacon or cab lights. I have also used this for the porch lights on a couple dash 9's.
F12 shut down sequence or can be used to mute sound.

When going up grade with a slow train a combination of the diesel working and running the sound up to run 8 can be messmerizing.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike (Lownote) wrote " Pardon me but shouldn't "trying to make their engine function protoypically" include having it make all the prototypical sounds at all the right times? I'm not sure why, say, appearance" counts as prototypical and is judged as such, and operation in the sense of having the right kind of couplers counts but sound does not? That makes no sense to me." 

I think I would agree that having the right sounds counts for a lot ... BUT ... the engineer on a real loco doesn't make the coupler clank. 

Let us separate for a moment two different modelling tasks. In the most common situation we have a model locomotive. All of us agree that it should replicate the prototype closely (though how close may be open to some debate). Additionally we want it to sound like the prototype, be lit like the prototype and to perhaps have the momentum and speed range and drawbar pull of the prototype etc etc.

Now take the second part of the modelling equation. We also are modelling to some extent the jobs of certain railroad personnages in the operation. When we make our locos and trains perform in a prototypical way we are modelling the aspects of the engineer's job and the conductor 's job and maybe the brakeman's job which we have adjudged to be fun to do. Since our crews are rather short staffed and the work is condensed, we have chosen aspects which are fun to us and which make the operation enjoyable.

Mike applied my statement to the first modelling task as if that were the only important goal. And perhaps to some including Mike it is. In their situation, supplementing the sound system with manually controlled additional sounds to achieve a well modelled prototypical presentation to our senses is a laudable goal. For those of us trying to balance the first goal with the goal of modelling a job, having the engineer act as part of the equipment defeats the purpose.

The real engineer controls the horn and the bell and the lights while the machinery by its nature produces other sounds. This is the situation that I would like to see replicated.

Regards ... Doug


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By Bruce Chandler on 04/09/2009 8:29 AM


I like the chuff sound a lot, but I really wish it was more realistic. 


I don't need "Fireman Fred" or much of anything else. 

I would really like a nice sound system that could do multiple sounds at once (bell, whistle, and chuff) and cost about $50. 


I don't want automatic triggers. 

I want to manually ring the bell and blow the whistle. 







I agree with the snipets of the above post from Bruce...the $50 part would be realllllly nice!


cale


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

None! 

Sure it's my RR, but I want my graqnd nephews to be able to run it too. Have you ever seen a kid with a toy that makes sound? Sure gets repetitive and annoying real soon, why would I want to arm those kids with triggers? That's one I'll never have to regret! 
Actually I thought a 2 stick controller would suit their fun better, the oldest is 6. So I'm installing canned sound, optically activated. I ordered mine from Small Scale Railway Co and the owner modified it for 18 volts for a buck. They say one can add reed switches for horn and whistle patterns...but that's after it's installed and running for me. 

John


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 04/09/2009 8:51 AM
Mike (Lownote) wrote " Pardon me but shouldn't "trying to make their engine function protoypically" include having it make all the prototypical sounds at all the right times? I'm not sure why, say, appearance" counts as prototypical and is judged as such, and operation in the sense of having the right kind of couplers counts but sound does not? That makes no sense to me." 

I think I would agree that having the right sounds counts for a lot ... BUT ... the engineer on a real loco doesn't make the coupler clank. 

Let us separate for a moment two different modelling tasks. In the most common situation we have a model locomotive. All of us agree that it should replicate the prototype closely (though how close may be open to some debate). Additionally we want it to sound like the prototype, be lit like the prototype and to perhaps have the momentum and speed range and drawbar pull of the prototype etc etc.

Now take the second part of the modelling equation. We also are modelling to some extent the jobs of certain railroad personnages in the operation. When we make our locos and trains perform in a prototypical way we are modelling the aspects of the engineer's job and the conductor 's job and maybe the brakeman's job which we have adjudged to be fun to do. Since our crews are rather short staffed and the work is condensed, we have chosen aspects which are fun to us and which make the operation enjoyable.

Mike applied my statement to the first modelling task as if that were the only important goal. And perhaps to some including Mike it is. In their situation, supplementing the sound system with manually controlled additional sounds to achieve a well modelled prototypical presentation to our senses is a laudable goal. For those of us trying to balance the first goal with the goal of modelling a job, having the engineer act as part of the equipment defeats the purpose.

The real engineer controls the horn and the bell and the lights while the machinery by its nature produces other sounds. This is the situation that I would like to see replicated.

Regards ... Doug 



that sounds like a pain in the &*@# ...... they are toys and I am having fun playing ..........there are so many parts to model railroading that people will never agree on what it should be like ...... some want it just like the real thing some just want to play and for some the garden is the best part and the trains just run tru it ..... as long as they all injoy what they are working on they are all right


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

My new "Enhanced RailBoss R/C" has two manual trigger outputs for the bell & whistle. But it also allows you to control your automatic triggers. You can program the percentage of time the track magnet will actually trigger the whistle (100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, or even 0%). This gives you control of the "annoyance factor" that occurs over the course of an 8-hour open house (which can also result in hearing steam whistles in your sleep). The automated station stops can be randomized in the same manner.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I use them all!!!! Bell, whistle, couple clank, working, and dynamic brakes. I'm out there to have fun and run like a railroad.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that the QSI board varies sound between under load and decelerating. I have thoroughly enjoyed that feature on my Phoenix 2K2 boards. I agree that adds a lot to he realism of the sound. As far as the number of triggers, I have to say that at this point in my model railroad "career" 6 triggers is more than enough for what I need.

Ed


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 04/09/2009 9:14 AM



" ...... they are toys and I am having fun playing ..........there are so many parts to model railroading that people will never agree on what it should be like ...... some want it just like the real thing some just want to play and for some the garden is the best part and the trains just run tru it ..... as long as they all injoy what they are working on they are all right" 

We agree - there are a variety of approaches out there. But the initial question was posed from the point of view of a supplier - how many triggers are needed by the typical modeller. And it is clear that one size will not fit all. There are lots of folks who do not need an infinite number of triggers



Trgards ... Doug


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And there are lots of folks that want more than 2! 

Ed: the phoenix varies sound by speed and the rate of change of speed... it CANNOT do it based on the load on the loco because it has no way to tell the load.. 

The QSI, since it drives the motors, and reads the motor load by BEMF, CAN vary sounds based on load, as well as speed and acceleration. There are very few decoders that do this, the Tsunami and the ESU (I believe) do it too. 

Regards, Greg


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 04/09/2009 5:30 AM

I do the same--but I have to admit what I would most like is a whistle I could control better. Quillable, as on the latest MTH DCS release, or even just as set of whistle sounds--short peeps and long blast that sound different. Especially with steam whistles. You could really "play" a steam whistle. You could tell who was driving a train by his distinctive whistle. I'd like to have that feature. 


Be cool to have the throttle knob switch to controlling the whistle, for example. Press button X, and the throttle knob/dial would control the velocity of the "steam" flowing through the whistle. Then press "X" again and you're back to controlling speed. A little dangerous, maybe, but it'd be a lot of fun. MTH has it--it's enough to make me want to switch to MTH



The sound of a steam whistle is one of the most distincitive and familiar sounds in American history--it shows up in music and literature and poetry all over the place. But on al the sound cards, the whistle mostly just goes toooot.




Lownote,

The NCE hammerhead supports a playable whistle for the soundtraxx tsunami and digitrax soundfx decoders by holding down one of the function keys and scrolling the thumbwheel. 
Not sure if QSI supoorts this though. They seem to have some sort of "playable alternate ending whistle". And not sure if the new NCE Gwire hammerhead would transmit this ?

Would be interesting to make a playable trigger (would probably just be variable voltage output instead of open collector types).

-Ray


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, you may be right about the Phoenix board, but it certainly does a good job of fooling me. When I increase the voltage, it throbs and increases in volume, and when I decrease the voltage it quiets down just like the real diesels that I have heard do. It probably is doing this based on changes in voltage, but on my railroad which is reasonably level except for short "hills" it sure gives a good impression of it.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right, it does it on voltage, and the rate of change of voltage. 

On a QSI, if you go up a grade, you will get labored sounds if the loco is running a heavy load, and when you coast, they have coasting sounds... 

To be clear, I am not putting down Phoenix, whose sound I think is top notch, it just does not have the ability to track ACTUAL load on the loco, because it is not running the motor and it, of course, does not have BEMF. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, just caught on to this thread. 

K.I.S.S. and yet have the opportunity to do what you want. I am a sound driven, man, all visuals and sounds must blend to create the experience. A silient train running around on track at a defined speed is a true definition of a "Toy Train" . I like the chuffs, click-clacks, brakes, and all other noises associated with a loco that is trying to get from point A to point B.... however recognize that I need to turn down the sound when required, this to protect the neighbours. 

Get a system that allows for all of your needs or potential whims. Then choose which features that tickle the moment and use them for that particular moment. 


Do not restrict your options in choosing a system. 


I happen to own one of these systems. And there are others out there too.... 


gg 




Correction and addition; there are other systems out there that can do the same.


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