# Hartland comparison to Bachmann and LGB



## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I currently have a Bachmann Big Hauler Porter 0-4-0 side tank and a Bachmann Spectrum 2-4-2 side tank and am wondering how they would look next to a Kalamazoo/Hartland 0-4-0 and other Hartland stuff.

I am considering the Hartland because it is probably a bit more sturdy/less details for children/guests.

I was given the measurements on a Hartland 0-4-0 and by size is it quite compatible with the two Bachmann locos (the cab is even a bit taller).

My other choices are the LGB 'westernized' Stainz type 0-4-0t's with cow catcher, etc. or Forney's or Moguls. I am somewhat hesitant on the Moguls as my turn radius will be small, probably R1.

Thx in advance for pics, thoughts, etc.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Is the HLW 0-4-0 available?
There's a caution with little fingers and moving side rods .... check out the Macks, they are kid pleasers.
As scales go, they fall in the close enough category.
John


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

It is available used. I am doing all steam, 1890 to 1910 period most likely. Thx on the caution, we do not approach the train when it is moving. 

Anybody have pics?  Appreciate anything anyone can share.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB Forneys and Moguls run great on 2 foot radius track. For small layouts I like the shorter forney.
And as the forney was narrow guage, tight corners were common.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

I don't own a HLW 0-4-0. Here is a photo of my HLW Forney pulling a Delton shorty coach. As you can see, they play nicely together, The LGB shorty coaches also look nice with this locomotive, and I suppose Piko's shorty coaches would work as well.










Regards,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Yeah, I am leaning more towards Forneys than Moguls, but I do like Moguls as well.

Dave,
Thx for the pic!

This is difficult to do without being able to actually see the stuff side by side. I am guessing a lot of people 'waste' a good amount of money figuring this out?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

As a rule of thumb, HLW is roughly 1:24 scale. Delton was 1:24 scale, so their stock looks good with the HLW. The LGB (and perhaps Piko) shorty passenger stock is scaled slightly larger, but not enough to jar the viewer. The photo shows an LGB shorty baggage coupled to the Delto shorty coach. The LGB is slightly taller, but not enough to look out of place. The Bachmann Little Big Hauler cars will also work, but they are two-axle rather than bogie stock. 



















Regards,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

again, thank you Dave. much appreciated. i do already have some two axle cars: the under 6" cars i posted in my other thread, 3 Bachmann bobber cabeese, 1 LGB bobber caboose, 3 just over 10" LGB gondolas. Interestingly, the LGB bobber and gondolas have swiveling trucks even though they are 2 axle. I was thinking most of my freight cars would be like this, it seems to fit into a mining operation making do with others leftovers.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

In order of ruggedness in my book is LGB, Hartland then the others. LGB is tops, espically the Staniz and Westernized version. If you need more pulling power, get the motorized tender. Drive is nearly industructable. Mine has taken two trips into the pond on my old railway, took it out(was under water for atleast an hour), shook water out, put back on the track and away she went. Left it in the sun to dry the rest of the day. My Hartland 4-4-0 is just as robust drive train wise, maybe a bit less UV resistant and fragile over the LGB, but not by much at all. But for kid use, with the going prices on evilbay, I would personally get the westernized LGB engine. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
Thx! how about size comparison of the Hartland 0-4-0 and the LGB westernized version?

any chance you have an LGB Porter as well? I understand they are kinda large actually.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For pulling power, LGB drive trains have a weakness in the smaller engines as follows:
Hand cars have only one drive axle and no couplers smallest drive motor.
Chloe, olmana, (small FRR engines) can only pull 3 small 2 axle cars max. Small motor. Newest version by Marklin has a can motor and drive shaft!! May pull more cars.
Porters can pull more cars, motor is still on the small side, I pull 8 cars on a level surface with R1 curves and metal rim wheels.
Stainz, Americanized stainz (2015/2017), Forney, Mogul have the most common motor, at least 75 per cent or more LGB engines have this motor.
Mikado, biggest motor, but drive assembly is weak, cup gear force fitted on small shaft. LGB fixed cup issue on motor drive but did not address second cup on front motor block drive!! Wait and see on the new run for this year.


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

I've pulled 18 USA reefers with my LGB Forney. 

Doc Watson


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

That is the later "China built" 0-4-0 he posted above, its a squat fat boiler and does not look quite right. They are known to have a weaker drive than the German production Staniz and its variations. The LGB moguls will do R1 but will slow in the curves and induce wear on the brass rails from slight binding. The 0-4-0's will just go around them smootly, as do the 0-6-2 Austrian tank engines. I have an early 2073d that is converted to onboard battery power that is like the enegizer bunny, just keeps going. I also have one of the squat boiler 2-4-0 engines that Jerry G gave me and I decaled for my Autism Express. It does fine pulling 3 Kalamazoo coaches that are full of people and are quite heavy. Probably has over 50 hours so far pulling them and it has onboard battery power as well (battery in the engines boiler). My layout is very small and R1 curves, so I stick to the smaller engines, short trains and it works well. The Stainz will run out of traction before it has issues with the drive. Moguls, if overloaded, run with heavy trains and tight curves will eat the idler gears and break side rods(sometimes with the gears fail). So upkeep of them is essential, otherwise they are excellent models. With the thousands of Staniz engines out there, they are probably one of the most robust engines for kids out there, espically the earlier models with the metal side rods. Later versions have a more prototypical side rod set up, however its plastic and one must be careful where you pick up the model from and not squeeze the rods. There are several Stainz engines on evilbay for under or just a hair over $100, several with free shipping. I no longer own the Kalamazoo/HLW 0-4-0 or the westernized Stainz. Here are a couple pics of mine. I am working on getting another Staniz as I have solved how to install onboard battery power(I cannot stand dedicated battery trailing cars!) The tender equipted Westernized Staniz probably blends the best and has the nicest purportions of the smaller LGB engines. The fat boiler 0-4-0/2-4-0 just doesn't look right to my eyes, but mine does run ok. Mike


2073d pulling LGB fieldbahn cars



Squat/fat boiler 2-4-0


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Now Lionel once offered a 0-4-0 that runs well and is slightly larger in size/matches larger rolling stock better. I have one that I converted to onboard battery power and it runs well. Its only good for pulling a few cars, but then 0-4-0's didn't pull long trains in real life anyways. To get an idea how small the real Staniz is, search youtube as there are some videos of the real one operating. As well as many of the other prototypes of LGB trains. The Harz 2-6-2T is another good "big engine" for small layouts. Big enough to look massive, but small enough wheelbase to run on R1 curves with ease, same for the Spreewald 2-6-0T. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Yeah I have seen those chunky LGB 0-4-0's and 2-4-0's, they look a little off to me. I still wonder between the LGB Americanized 0-4-0 and the Hartland 0-4-0. I am guessing between the two I am safer at this point with the LGB's.

I like the saddle tank porters in general, but for any reasonable price Lehman is the only one in town and I have ready they are pretty large and don't pull well.

I d like that LGB 2-6-0t, but it is very European looking. I do kinda like the European look, but not sure I can come up with a plausible story for a mix of American and European rolling stock. I have considered a couple ideas though. I have never heard of a Harz 2-6-2t - anyone got a pointer to that?

I do intend to add battery and remote control to all my loco's. Thank you all for your advice, pics and opinions!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Bachmann did make one 0-4-0 saddle tank Porter a number of years ago. Mine is a reasonably good puller with five standard-sized freight cars or less. They are probably hard to find now. The scale is 1:20.3, but as it is a 20 ton machine, it is still fairly small. I had to move the bell on mine to add a fill hatch for the saddle tank. I had run two prototype Porters for the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern RR tourist line, so I am kind of a stickler for things like that.










Cheers,
David Meashey


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

One thing to keep in mind--especially when it comes to narrow gauge--is that there is little consistency in terms of overall size.



















All three of these locos are built to the same scale (1:20.3), and match their prototypes within inches. 

My thoughts--don't get too hung up on size. The prototypes didn't. If the locomotive pulled, or the car carried, it got used. If you like it, run it. I would say that with your presumed curves, you're best off with 0-4-0 and similar locos. The mogul will run on it, but its size relative to radius of the curve may make your eyes hurt. It's much more natural-looking on 4' radius. The 0-4-0s look much more at home on the 2' radius curves. (One of my favorite, most relaxing railroads to watch was built with 2' radius curves and a stable of 0-4-0 locos as motive power.) 

If you're a "scale purist," then--again--don't worry about what scale shows on the box, worry about how the loco measures up when you hold your specific scale ruler up to the locomotive. There are many things labeled "1:24" which work remarkably well in 1:20.3, and vice versa. In the cases of many locomotives, you can effectively change the "scale" of the locomotive simply by changing the scale of the figure in the cab. Something like LGB's Porter came in sizes ranging from 8 to 25 tons; all with the same overall appearance. LGB's westernized Stainz has a cab that is more than amply accommodating for a very tall 1:20.3 engineer. 

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dave,
That saddle tanker is cool! I like it. 

K,
I wish I knew your full given name, but 'K' is kinda cool, like Men In Black agent K!

Thanks, yeah I hear you and am definitely not a rivet counter or a purist by any means, nor do I intend to be. I understand about the Mogul's, even though I do like them I may just forgo any of those. That is why I am looking at the Forney's instead, but that LGB Spreewald is kinda cool to.

I would like to try and be a 'scale purist', but I will not lose sleep over things not matching too closely. There are far too many other things to 'worry' about (not supposed to fret over a hobby, right?).

It looks like I may need to spend some money to see how things look together though, but the pics provided so far give me some context.

Again, you guys are all great with your info. It is much appreciated. Now I need to see about mixing European and American rolling stock with some amount of plausibility.

What to do about those 'odd' couplers and buffers?!?


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

There is a tourist attraction that has an engine that is almost a clone of the LGB Stainz with a cow catcher on the front. Imported from Germany many years ago when you could do that very cheaply. Much cheaper than restoring a non running narrow gauge engine(if you could find one state side). They did have to put a new boiler on it due to a Federal law banning the use of any German built boiler. That law was put on the books near the outbreak of WWII. There was an article about it in one of my LGB Telegram magazines I have in my collection. So there are a few European engines here in the USA. One of the Darjeeling B class steamers is in a private collection, I believe in Indiana, last I heard as well. So just develope a back story of your line importing the engine due to being unable to find a suitable engine state side. And yes, the LGB 0-4-0 will be much more durable and trouble free in the long term, but only a touch more so than the HLW ones. I just think the HLW one is ugly, having decended from the ugly Kalamazoo one. Atleast the Stainz has a prototype and its not a foobie! MIke


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys;

Probably too big and too pricy, but I will run it up the flag pole and see whether anyone salutes. Hartland's Big John/Paul Bunyan locomotives are loosely based on the Dunkirk geared locomotives. They are brutes when it comes to pulling. Since they have bogie trucks a'la the Shay, Climax, and Heisler, they can negotiate some pretty sharp curves with ease. The photo shows my Big John running on the late Otto Hartenstein's layout. The cars were loaded with simulated coal. It was probably not as heavy as the real thing, but still made a significant difference in train weight.










Just a thought,
David Meashey


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I have always liked the Big John, but its hard to do onboard batteries. A dedicated trailing battery car is needed, hard to hid batteries in a logging car! Neat engine, will darn near pull the house down. I am getting more like Dave, I run my live steam more than anything else. I am planning to do one more battery engine to better suit my new line, then concentrate on my steamer.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mike, I'd imagine a 14.8v Li-Ion pack would fit easily in the bunker of Big John--probably one in a 2x2 array as opposed to the more typical flat pack. The boiler looks to be of good diameter, so the electronics would probably fit in there without too much struggle. Conversely, you may be able to fit the batteries in the boiler and the electronics in the bunker.

Helmut, it's Kevin Strong. Before e-mail, I'd sign notes with a stylized "K" that combined the "K" and the "S." When e-mail replaced written notes, I just kept the "K." (That, and people no longer had to suffer trying to read my handwriting.)

Later,

K


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Battery tech keeps getting smaller and smaller. I see guys in O scale going dead rail now in small numbers. I bet we see onboard battery power in HO scale within the next 10 years if not much sooner. I am going to try to do onboard battery power(no RC) in a LGB Stainz soon. Thinking of building my own AA cell, Nimh pack. When figuring pack Mah, do I just add up the values of each battery cell? Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dave,
Thx. I have considered the Big John, but it is kinda pricey. Also it does *seem* smaller than the LGB Forney, perhaps smaller than the Hartland Forney as well (anyone know?). Size is a consideration for electronics and battery.

For any Stainz and the Porter I have, I will probably add a tender to carry some of the electronics or battery.

I might just hold off on another locomotive for now and start to work on the two I have (three f you count the Christmas set ten wheeler) to figure things out.

Kevin,
Kevin Strong somehow seems to match well with Agent K!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For a battery log car, just make the double AA type look like logs!!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

I have both the Big John and the La Porte Forney. Unfortunately both are stored in their boxes and a bit hard to retrieve at the moment. From looking at photos, I would say that the Forney is longer, mainly due to its cowcatcher. Dunkirk geared locomotives were probably the lightweights of the geared locomotive world. All the prototype photos I have seen show a locomotive that seems a bit smaller than the Climax.

Dunkirks also had an opposed piston steam engine array beneath the locomotive cab (it is viewable on the HLW model). I would suspect that the poor engine crew very likely had their wisdom teeth shaken loose by the engine assembly once the locomotive was running.

Regards,
David Meashey

P.S. Does the choice have to be steam? HLW also make a Mack switcher and a free lance electric switcher with a really snug wheelbase, but respectable pulling capacity. Also, you may be able to find one of the Bachmann Davenport "critters." (Davenport shown)


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dave,
Yes, I am targeting 1890-1910 time period, or thereabouts. I would not mind any of: Shay, Climax, Heisler, Dunkirk, or Forney loco's (or maybe European) to add to the 0-4-0 and 2-4-2 that I have. But I would like whatever I do add to be the same, i.e. 2 ea. or more of the same loco. Makes business sense for the RR you know; parts, maintenance, training.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Understood. Even the Mack switcher is a 1920s vintage. A Dunkirk would work, but they are pricy. It's too bad Aristo is gone. Their 0-4-0 was pretty good once the bugs were worked out of it, and the street price was not bad either.

Bachmann is bringing back the former Aristo Eggliner, so watch Bachmann's new releases. Could happen. Or not. Only time will tell.

Best,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dave! Yeah, pricey but so are the others. We will see. 

How does the Aristo 0-4-0 scale out/look next to the Bachmann 0-4-0t Porter or the Bachmann 2-4-2t Lynn type? And the Forneys, et al.?

One can find the Aristo's used, but they are supposed to be 1:29 scale and I am not sure how they handle the tighter curve radius.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The 0-4-0s are based on the Pennsy A class switchers. These were fairly small locomotives for warehousing areas with tight industrial curves. Even though they are models of a standard gauge locomotive, they do not look imposing next to Bachmann, HLW, and LGB. They were offered with a coal bunker at the rear of the cab or with a full tender.

I used the Aristo coal bunker on my LGB Porter, and they looked like a match, at least to me. The "catalog" locomotive builders marketed a wide range of sizes. In the second photo, the Bachmann Davenport gas/mechanical is 1:20.3 scale, yet it is still dwarfed by a 1:29 USA beer can tank car.



















I grew up with American Flyer S scale, so I got used to borrowing HO and O scale stuff to make things work.

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dave - yeah you showed me that gas switcher/beer car pic before (somewhere! - or you just posted it and I took it as you posting it for me!). I guess if that is OK depends upon how much one pulls out the micrometer and measures wheels, brake handles, etc.!

I wonder if anyone has a Aristo 0-4-0 and an LGB or Bachmann 0-4-0 to compare - or experience doing such. Maybe somebody will chime in.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just read through tis thread - very informative.

Two things struck me:



hlfritz said:


> I have never heard of a Harz 2-6-2t - anyone got a pointer to that?


Not sure where the Harz 2-6-2 fits into the discussion, but that loco exists both as a prototype and as several models.

Also - as to the thousands of Stainz locos out there - shipment of the Stainz actaully passed the one million mark a few years back.
I would image that is the largest number of a G-Scale loco ever built.

Knut


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Knut,
I assumed, now I know mistakenly, that Harz was a model brand/name. I just did a google and it is an actual loco. So it seems the real loco is a Harz 2-6-2t and there are models of it, one of which LGB makes. Is that correct now?

I am glad you sussed that out of the thread and replied!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Helmut

The Harz is actually a region in Germany.
There is a narrow gauge (Meter gauge) railroad abbreviated HSB that serves that region and is very active today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harz_Narrow_Gauge_Railways
So models of the HSB are quite popular.
G-scale manufacturers that produce HSB models include LGB, TrainLine, Kiss and Nequida - maybe others as well

If you type HSB into the search field of the Large Scale database at www.gbdb.info you will get an overview of many of the HSB products that are/were available in G-Scale.

Knut


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx!


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> Battery tech keeps getting smaller and smaller. I see guys in O scale going dead rail now in small numbers. I bet we see onboard battery power in HO scale within the next 10 years if not much sooner. I am going to try to do onboard battery power(no RC) in a LGB Stainz soon. Thinking of building my own AA cell, Nimh pack. When figuring pack Mah, do I just add up the values of each battery cell? Mike


Battery in HO is today. Air Wire has a motion decoder, and a Converter that will fit in HO rolling stock. We are stocking these items.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> When figuring pack Mah, do I just add up the values of each battery cell? Mike


I'm not a battery expert, but don't you need to match the voltage and discharge characteristics of the cells you combine in a pack?
I remember reading about that when commercial battery packs are manufactured.

To answer your question - for battery cells connected in parallel you add the capacities, if connected in series you add the voltages, the capacity stays the same.
You can of course combine parallel and series connections to increase the terminal voltage as well as the capacity.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With the charge and discharge rates we use, the "matching" of cells is not as important as in high discharge situations. It's been a bit over hyped.

It is better to use fewer cells in parallel if you can, since that's where imbalances can happen, in series, you force all cells to carry the same current.

If I had to do parallel in a pack, I'd rather parallel 2 strings of series connected, as opposed to paralleling units and then in series. I realize this goes somewhat against current thinking.

Buying all the same cell type from the same manufacturer at the same time is clearly the safest approach.

Greg 1,191


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

hlfritz said:


> Dave,
> Yes, I am targeting 1890-1910 time period, or thereabouts.


HLW's Mack could just slip in to the "1910 or thereabouts" slot,


> "Mack Trucks produced its first locomotive in May, 1921. It was a 33-ton chain-drive four wheel steeple cab locomotive powered by two 40-horsepower AC gasoline engines mounted fore and aft of the cab. "


https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/33657-mack-rail-–-the-locomotives/


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

yeah - the gas switchers have always appealed to me even though I like steam. i could do a more modern steam based RR, but I would like to do the transition period where air brakes and knuckle couplers were becoming more and more the norm. not that I am stuck there yet.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

I do kind of understand, my preference would have been the 1830s to 1860s but back in the 1980s when I got serious about model trains it was fergit that period unless you were a machinist with a full shop.
So I went with what was available so I would fit in at clubs and such.
This is kind of thing which really appeals to me, 
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr1832.jpg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

for that i think you still need a full machine shop! there are some 4-4-0's that seem close though.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Yep! So, as one might gather from what's in the profile pic/avatar, HLW's Macks and Sparkys have grown on me. 
If one is not careful one can get addicted to kitbashing them to varying degrees and acquire enough of them to feature on some kind of television show about hoarding.
But it is logical for one so inclined: I can buy a several thousand dollar articulated or I can take the same funds and bash Macks till the second coming!
_And it is a good bet HLW's stuff is built sturdily enough to last beyond that 

_


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