# Dibond as a layout deck surface



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

OK here is a question for anyone out there who has used Dibond for a layout deck surface. How do you cut it? I have used an 80 tooth carbide circular saw; it just rips it up leaving a very rough edge. I guess I could use a router but that would mean making a jig to cut each piece.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Dan,Dan,Dan,Put the Blade in Backwards as if You would do cutting Vinyl siding. On curves use a Sabor Saw.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Give Ron Brown a call, or check his article on how he installed it in a back issue of SitG. I seem to remember he learned that finishing the edges was done best with a router bit (I believe supplied for specifically trimming DiBond edges.) Also, the installation instruction posted on Alcoa and Alcoa web sites covered this. Maybe a Robo type tool and a very fine straight cut bit would do the cutting job. 

Call Walt Schwartz. He ahs a lot of experience installing it. 

Then again, if your DiBond is pretty thin you might be able to cut it will a knife, scoring one side and snap it like wall board. 

 One last thought, how about a small diameter (thin) non-ferrous cutting blade?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Are there any steamup videos where the elevated layout was covered with DiBond?


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris,
We used DiBond competitors sheathing on the clubs portable layout. (sorry I can't remember the manufacturers name at this time) This video has a few good closeup shots near the beginning to see it up close. We used a fine tooth saber saw for all the cuts on the 4X8 sheets. Just a little cleanup filing was necessary when installed. I was told that the difference between the two is the one we used has a corrugated center and DiBond doesn't.


HERE is the link to the video


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Watching some recent GTG posted videos it occured to my ears that some elevated layout decks solid surface material decks reflected, resonated or clattering sound obscuring the train's sound, particularly the loco's sound. On the other side of things I suppose what I could be hearing with this type of solid surface is an amplifying effect of the sound as well.


An alternative to a solid deck is how the Brits often build an elevated layout. Wire mesh screen stretched over a ladder frame, followed by landscaping cloth. The track laid then back filled with ballast fines. The ballast settles after a year or two and needs some additional ballast back filling as it settles but the look and sound seem superior to a solid surface sheet metal or similar material. 


Wondering what other's experience has been with both solid deck materials. DiBond in particular or its other solid surface materials, and the Brits method with ballast. 




Posted By Chris Scott on 29 Sep 2009 09:48 PM 
Are there any steamup videos where the elevated layout was covered with DiBond? 






Posted By chooch on 30 Sep 2009 07:07 AM 
Chris,
We used DiBond competitors sheathing on the clubs portable layout. (sorry I can't remember the manufacturers name at this time) This video has a few good closeup shots near the beginning to see it up close. We used a fine tooth saber saw for all the cuts on the 4X8 sheets. Just a little cleanup filing was necessary when installed. I was told that the difference between the two is the one we used has a corrugated center and DiBond doesn't.


HERE is the link to the video


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe Dr. Rivet can reflect on his experience with ballast on elevated tracks....


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Just found out that the material we used for our deck is 'Omega-Lite' by Laminators, Inc. Good material to work with.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

What Chris said about the noise caused by the elevated surface has also concerned me. One of the types of surface used here has been plywood with asphalt type rolled roofing over it. This seems to stop most of the noise. I was wondering about the new rubber type rolled roofing as a cover over the Dibond. The cover on the plywood is used as protection which the Dibond doesn’t need but it would deaden the sound. It also comes in typical roof colors such as a sandy brown that would look more like ballasted track.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
Another surface material is the non-slip material that is used on step/floor surfaces that comes with a very strong adhesive. The surface does have a ballast type look and in various colors. I have it outside on the ramp entrance to the shed along with the leg supports cross member that our portable track rest upon.

In fact I am redesigning our portable with a new aluminum frame and dibond top with this instead of paint.

http://www.noskidding.com/ns_ns5100.htm


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, I had thought about this non-slip finish but didn't know if it would stick. It would be much easier to apply than a rolled roof type of cover. 

I just found this site. http://www.display.alcancomposites....dibond_verarbeitung/DIBOND-Verarbeitung_E.pdf


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

No doubt, elevated tracks are noisier. But the benefit of not bending over is so nice. The Dibond looks like a very good choice. My first track was just toped with plywood and a paint job. The Texas heat a humidity took it's toll almost as fast I put it down. It was also very noisy when running _fast trains ._ Slow, no problem. Then I replaced all the warped rotted wood and had one of the guys that spray bed liners into the back of trucks come over and spray the whole thing. It was an incredible finish because it sealed every joint and made the track impervious to the elements even here. I was amazed at how covering and sealing all the joints with this material cut the noise in about half too. Needing wider turnouts caused me to replace that track with the one we use now. Weather treated decking underneath with "ChoiceDeck "[/i] on top. It is one of the new materials sold at Lowes that weather does not effect. For what ever reason, it seems fairly quiet for an elevated track. I like the clack, clack, clack[/i] but do understand that it makes the engine harder to hear. The best of both worlds is to do an elevated track with ballast and all the other bells and whistles like some of the tracks I see videos of around here at MLS. I guess I am just to lazy for that.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
I like the idea of spray on bed liner material. How did it hold up to track fires?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The bed liner, I have only seen it come in black, does it come in other colors? Black would make the deck surface very hot, I could see rail expansion being huge.


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## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

For an example Armor Thane Products says "•Unique UV ColorCoat system for a customized match to any manufacturer’s vehicle color." So not just black anymore.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Kicking around several ideas in my mind for an elevated layout surface. I mentioned one (above) being ballast, the other is Cement Fiber Board Siding. Cement Fiber Board is common out hear for exterior houses, etc. siding. Hardie makes it trade name HardiePanel. Our house has 8" lap siding plank. It will last forever, low maintenance, no shrinkage, great weather resistance, etc. It also comes in solid sheets and different surfaces/textures, in this case stucco would be the choice; 5/16" x 4' x (8' & 10'); 2.3#/sq. ft.; 20 colors. 10' = $50/sht.; 8' = $40/sht., or $0.63-0.83/sq ft. respectively. Installation with a nail gun, and adhesive chalk depending. Though it is murder on saw blades. 

How does that pricing compare to DiBond?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Here Dibond is $85 Canadian or about $78 US a 4 x 8 sheet.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, 
Check the classifieds quick. A fellow out in MI has a former suspended rr system in steel for sale. He wants $3.oo a foot and I think he has 800 ft. Don't quote me but check it out. 
N


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By livesteam5629 on 01 Oct 2009 06:39 PM 
Charles, 
Check the classifieds quick. A fellow out in MI has a former suspended rr system in steel for sale. He wants $3.oo a foot and I think he has 350 ft. Don't quote me but check it out. It would make a great protable layout. Also look in the Beginers Forum under "What is this stuff worth" for a discussion on it.
N


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan 

On Ron Brown's track and the three portable tracks Mike Moore has built, we rough cut the Dibond swith an ordinary circular saw or reciprocating jig saw. After the DiBond was attached to the frame, the rough edges were cleaned up with either a large flat mill file or an ordinary router. Remember, it is a sheet of plastic with two really thin aluminum skins bonded to it. I have used it on some bridge decks and just smoothed the edges with a mill file. I would use it if I were starting out [over]; it is much faster to put down than pieces of Trex, and at least 10-15% cheaper per square foot. 

Regards


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 01 Oct 2009 10:35 AM 
The bed liner, I have only seen it come in black, does it come in other colors? Black would make the deck surface very hot, I could see rail expansion being huge. 
The liner that I used came in several colors. I used Forrest Green. It blended in well with my backyard. If I had not torn the track down to build another I think that it would still be holding up as well as the day that it was sprayed. This was many years ago. It is that durable of stuff. The trouble was the price, and finding somebody willing to bring their equipment over to do it. Most were just set up to do trucks at their shops and would not even give me a price. Finally I found a guy that had interest in trains. He actually got kind of excited to do it. I new that this was serious stuff when he put on protective clothing and a filtered breathing apparatus to do it. First an epoxy layer was sprayed on and let to dry until tacky to the touch. Then the liner was sprayed on over it. His fancy air pressure sprayer could monitor the thickness of the product as it was applied. It flowed into every crack and crevice making the whole layout into one continuous piece. It hurt to have to tear it down, but wider curves were calling.

Posted By Charles on 01 Oct 2009 10:12 AM 
Steve
I like the idea of spray on bed liner material. How did it hold up to track fires? 

I think that the liner material meet the automobile fire standards at that time. I still checked by putting a small puddle of alcohol on it and lighting. As the alcohol burned from the outward edge to the inside of the puddle, the heat became enough to cause the liner to start to bubble, then melt in the middle and then slowly burn. Over the years we had many alcohol fires and red hot coal embers settle onto it with no problems other then a few scorched or slight melt marks. I am not endorsing these bed liner products but this particular one worked incredibly well for me.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

For what it's worth Dan, I used quality pressure treated 5/8" ply (NOT from Home Depot) when I built my railway in 1994. it is still in good shape but I did make the mistake of cutting curved 8' lengths out of a sheet, this relieved stresses and made for some wicked warping. Once I had learned from my mistakes and rounded off square corners after installation there were no problems except for the destruction caused by falling trees. So, PT in the hostile climate of Ottawa is just fine, in the balmy Surrey BC climate you'll see an easy 20 years of no maintenance and by that time you'll be too ga-ga to care! It's inexpensive and easy to work with. 
I've just started on a 6'x14' shed in the form of an English signal box to roll all my rolling stock into, I've got tired of packing and unpacking stock and the damage that inevitably occures every time I want to run. 
David M-K 
Ottawa


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve: 
Intrigued by ArmorThane I checked out their website http://www.armorthane.com/ . They market the product for vehicles, construction and industrial, ie.e, bed liners; decks, walkways, etc.; exterior coatings respectively. They have grown to support onsite installations for two out of three product categories. They even offer garage floor coating (ArmorFlooring) which is great since I need it and something a heck of a lot better than the paint on stuff. And it comes in lots of colors too - a red layout maybe? Definitely worth considering for a elevated layout. 

Thanks for the tip.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Chris. One neat thing appears to be that many of these types of products can now be applied with a roller. That would cut out the expense of it having to be applied by a representative of the company. You could also apply it as thick as you would want. I wonder if these newer products are even less flammable??


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Having an interest in the possibility of this application and then reading about experiences from those having tried the over the counter "roll on" forget it...


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve:
I digress a bit, then re-rail...

It's me I guess (ok, I know), but anything that goes on with a roller can't be tough enough to do the job or last. I like that industrial toughness stuff. Anecdotal survey from hear, most I know who have coated/sealed their garage floor the most popular product is a DIY roll-on gray something that you sprinkle b&w flakes on for texture. That's not a reassuring process nor produict. Somebody coming out and applying an industrial grade coating, wearing a hazmat(sp) suit, I can believe in that - or at least it gets a visceral, "Ok, apparently I can take this seriously and a second look."

That said, there is often an incompatibility between what works and California







Then again we find alternatives - like a spray on mix of algae, left over grape skins and Elmer's glue. Works great, stinks (whew !!!)









I'm still leaning toward ballast'd bed for an elevated layout. If I go through with ballast I'm going to have to rent or borrow a front loader to move and lift the ballast - I'm damn sure not going to shovel it up 3 ft. !!! I know - landscaper's, that's the answer. Yeah. Then again the simplicity of cutting sheet material. Oh well, I'll build the layout and then the surface will come.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Wait a minute, wait a minute!!!

I completely forgot another alternative - astro turf! Well maybe not exactly, probably one of those new softer fake grasses. There's this other thread Coal fired boiler - Aster design , take a look at the Aster website link, Aster Europa. The upper left photo shows a 3 track elevated layout with grass. Sure looks pretty !









Dan, you should reconsider, go with grass.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the stuff that I used http://www.speedliner.com/ Looks like it still has to be applied by one of their trained dealers. The green synthetic turf in the pictures at the Aster link looks great. The only problem I could see would be water getting under it and through at the seams.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
http://www.noskidding.com/ns_ns5100.htm 

I "fired up" the non-slip material. Try two situations both mounted on aluminum with a set of ties in place: 1) a "normal" track fire that is notice in a reasonable time and the other 2) soaked and continued fueled fire until the ties melted.

Results:
1) no effect on the surface
2) a bit of lift on 2 corners but it did not "melt' to material (ties melted) in fact the material was structurally sound (did not melt through nor deformed). One point about the 2 corners coming loose, normally the corners are very far from the track on a layout and would not likely to take such an impact from a track fire but with this "sample" setup the fire surrounded the entire piece.


Conclusion: could be a protective covering and lessen the sound situation


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