# Need help with Church' Mogul...



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

The front axle gear keeps slipping and causing the drive rods to bind up. It even BENT them severely once. From what I can tell...







the center of the gear has slid on the axle, it's splined. (to the right in the pic)
I do not know if this is the case and with a little slight prying am afraid it will break before moving.What's the real deal and a perm. fix please!?!?!?


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

It's an LGB mogul right? 

I'd guess you have split a gear. 

Train Li USA should have the bit your after. Have a look on there web page or give them a ring.

http://www.train-li-usa.com 

Alan


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

yeap, LGB! what is a split gear? when it slides on the axle?


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

The gear which is slipping on the axle may be from a slit gear (a crack in the plastic) or maybe it has warn the center hole of the gear so it no longer holds on tight to the axle.

If you remove the axle can you spin the gear with out he axle turning?

Alan


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

John 

Does the Mogul have a lot of miles on it? 

The normal gear location is for the spur to be shouldered at the end of the spline as your picture denotes. 

Hard to tell in your picture but it looks like the axel has shoulders at the motor box support area? 

Alan was suggesting the gear maybe cracked or split in the area of the splined/6mm hole. 

Michael


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

no split gear as described... gear does NOT spin on axle.... it seems that in corners probably, the axle slides far enough over for the gear to miss the other... Like I need a spacer now? Miles? Not many... only run on weekends for short times during services. 
No shoulders on axle... the wheels keep it from side to side action. Between the two gears, you can slide them far enough apart to not touch each other (barely) just enough to screw it up! over


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

John, 

Is the motor block worn at the area wear the axle and motor block intersect, i.e., the motor block is the bearing surface many times this area is oblonged after mucho use? 

Wheeel backside to backside spacing is gauged by the wheels press fit onto the axles and stops at the shoulders thereof. The carbon brushes also minimize the side to side play. 

Michael


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

no wear, looks new. wheels look as pressed on as the others, gears look good too. No beveling on edges from wear either... ?? If I could just slide that top greay gear over on that splined axle.... ????


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

it looks like the axle gear has slid toward the outside, it almost hits the inner lead weight on the right side of the engine


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi John,

If the gear can slide on the axle I believe you only have one of two options:

1, find a way to keep the gear from sliding (superglue?)
2. replace the axle and gear

I have never had a gear slide sideways on an LGB axle - it it does you will always have the problem until something eventually breaks. Even if you do not see it, I would not be surprised if there is a hairline crack (split) in the gear.

You did not mention which Mogul you have. Perhaps this will help:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrysrr/LGB%20Steam%20Locos/26192-1.pdf

If you have the model number of your Mogul I can probably provide the parts diagrams for it.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

#25194 Mogul and the wheel set is #97 
I cannot budge the gear on axle with prying of screwdriver... the gear it rides on that's black, slides side to side in there a bit but does not look worn either.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jul 2010 07:56 AM 
#25194 Mogul and the wheel set is #97 
I cannot budge the gear on axle with prying of screwdriver... the gear it rides on that's black, slides side to side in there a bit but does not look worn either. 
If the gear #97 is OK then perhaps there is something wrong with gear #61. It is hard to tell without actually seeing it. Normally I like to put two similar Moguls together to make it easier to visualize how it should look.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrysrr/LGB%20Steam%20Locos/25194-1.pdf

If the drive wheel gear looks right then I would suspect the other gear. There should be some visible indication that one or the other is out of position. 
If you can provide a more detailed photograph of the gears and how they are meshing that would help.


Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Also you might try swapping drivers 97 and 99 (if they fit). I believe 99 is the same except for the chuff magnet. Either way the gear should be in the same place on the axles.

If the driver gears match the problem is probably elsewhere.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I run a small screw in between the engine block and lead weight, pushing the lead weight ever so slightly over. This should stop the gear/axle from sliding too far to the right. It is only like a 1/16" of an inch and hope it still makes the tight 4' curves. When reassemble, it does not bind or kink so I am going to test it tonight. 
question: Are the side rods supposed to, or have to, match in movement?


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jul 2010 09:07 AM 
I run a small screw in between the engine block and lead weight, pushing the lead weight ever so slightly over. This should stop the gear/axle from sliding too far to the right. It is only like a 1/16" of an inch and hope it still makes the tight 4' curves. When reassemble, it does not bind or kink so I am going to test it tonight. 
question: Are the side rods supposed to, or have to, match in movement? 

The important thing with the side rods is that they are both tension free when you screw the top to the gearbox. Moguls can jump out of time and if a rod is tight it usually is an indication that the gear is not in the right notch. It does not matter to the left rod what the right rod is doing or what position it is in. They will be in their right positions when the rods are not binding.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

thanks Jerry


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 07 Jul 2010 07:01 AM 
John, 

Is the motor block worn at the area wear the axle and motor block intersect, i.e., the motor block is the bearing surface many times this area is oblonged after mucho use? 

Wheeel backside to backside spacing is gauged by the wheels press fit onto the axles and stops at the shoulders thereof. The carbon brushes also minimize the side to side play. 

Michael 

I had this once on an LGB loco, 2073/Austrian U.

Looked OK at first, but once apart, the rear most axel hole on one side was an oval. The locomotive must have been run in one direction much of its life to produce wear on one side, not the other.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The axles are quartered, meaning one driver is a quarter turn ahead of the latter, it’s possible but not likely your out of quarter. Both front and rear axles have to be correctly phased/synced when inserted into the motor block to align the side rod pivots. If the rear driver side rod pivot is positioned at 12:00 the front side rod pivot must be positioned the same when inserted into the motor block (same side of motor block). Same holds true for the opposite side except the side rod pivots will be a quarter turn from the latter side. 

I’d suggest you look real hard at the axle support holes in the motor block; this area is notorious for wear elongating the 6mm hole allowing the axle to float freely and jump out of sync with the other axle causing the damage you mentioned previously. Best way to examine these holes is to remove the axles and put the motor block cover plate back on, also inspect the axles they should be 6mm all the way across. 

I recently repaired an engine which had worn or grooved the axles severely and of course the motor block was damaged too. 

As mentioned you should have some play in the side rods no matter where they are positioned, especially since the pivot points are molded with elongated holes… 

Michael


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

motor blocks can't be cheap!?!?!?!!?


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Presently there hard to come by, this should change in the future as the Moguls are being manufactured again from what is purported to be the same molds... 

Train-Li had some Mogul motor blocks available in RED recently, under twenty-five bucks as I recall. I bought some and painted one satin black, it's all good! 

Michael


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Call Train-Li to see if you can get particular parts. 

Not all parts are listed at the web site. 

The gear can be moved on the axle, but it could hit the other side of the idler gear and cause a different problem, so be careful about how much you move it. 

I swap gears on axles almost weekly on LGB products.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

IT worked! Train runs great for now but is constant maintanence lately! Weekly Dan? How do you press wheels/gears etc. on-off axles?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jul 2010 04:14 PM 
motor blocks can't be cheap!?!?!?!!? 

But can be re-bushed.

http://www.igus.com/default.asp?PAGE=IGLIDE


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Garret, 

Great idea, do you have any experience bushing the motor blocks if so please share? I thought of something similar myself once but was concerned about precisely centering the new bushing/bearings. Seems to me correctly locating and or machining the oblonged worn holes for the bushings is more of a problem than recognized at first glance. Other considerations are; is the new bushings outside diameter large enough to work with the required clean-up or newly machined hole of the damaged motor block and you’d also have to remove the drivers from the axles, slide the bushes on and then push the drivers back on or cut the bushings in half. These are obstacles which can be worked out just wondering if anyone has the inside track on performing the surgery. 

Michael


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, loco still runs like a champ. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/community/forums/tabid/56/aff/8/aft/85616/afv/topic/default.aspx


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One must be very careful when removing the wheels/gears. 

I made my own fixture to do this. 

A small wheel puller would work very nicely n the wheels, but the gears are another issue. 

The spoked wheels are the hardest to deal with as the spokes are fragile and you must get to the solid plastic near the middle to remove these wheels. 

Motors can cause gear problems also as the motor shaft must not move.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Garret, 

Thanks for sharing.... 

Repairing and or retro-fitting bushings in the Mogul motor block will be somewhat more difficult as there is no molded reference, i.e., on the block you repaired there are raised/molded rings at the 6mm axle holes for reference and the block itself is one piece in this area verses the Moguls three piece motor block with center, top and bottom caps. So keeping everything on center will be more difficult but not impossible and as mentioned previously the Mogul’s block has the 6mm axle holes sectioned i.e., 2/3 of the hole is on the motor block and 1/3 is on the bottom motor block cap. 

I have a couple of damaged Mogul motor blocks I’m going to have to experiment with them and see where it takes me, I’ll probably make an index mount/jig to hold the motor block and reference the axle holes. 

I had the same problem on a couple of LGB Alco locomotives, severe wear on the motor blocks at the axle interface. I replaced the motor blocks so more parts to experiment with. 

NWSL makes some nice little pullers that work well for the pushing and pulling the gears on the LGB axles. 

Michael


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

It is surprising to hear of LGB Moguls and other LGB locos having such damage from wear but it probably should not be since they have been out for so many years and many have probably accumulated an amazing number of hours of use.

I bought most of my LGB Moguls used (before the prices came down so much) and none that I bought showed any signs of serious wear. Most were purchased 10 or more years ago so it is logical that many offered for sale used today may have had much more use than mine did.

With the LGB bankruptcy the number of older LGB locos getting a lot of run time is to be expected but it brings up the question of how a buyer could tell by looking at it if a used LGB Mogul he is considering buying has had a lot of use. 

The drivers are usually a good indication and it is unlikely that many would replace them just to sell a loco. Shoes often show wear but are relatively inexpensive and easy to replace.

*For those who have worked on seriously worn LGB locos I would like to ask them what visible signs of wear or damage would be visible to a potential buyer?*

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry,

See the picture below for common axle wear area, this is from the LGB Alco as is the axle/driver, Mogul is essentially the same.

If you can move the axle/drivers front- back or up-down you got issues. The axles should not move in the motor block at all, less the center floating axle.

Michael


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 09 Jul 2010 11:49 AM 
Jerry,

See the picture below for common axle wear area, this is from the LGB Alco as is the axle/driver, Mogul is essentially the same.

If you can move the axle/drivers front- back or up-down you got issues. The axles should not move in the motor block at all, less the center floating axle.

Michael





Hi Michael,

Thanks for the photos and description. I think my Mogul buying days are over but it is good to know what to look for in case I run into a used LGB loco that is tempting.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, on the split blocks (never liked those as much as teh early ones) I do see the problem. 

At this point....shims. 

What will most likely happen with the limited bits from LGB-Marklin will be a cottage industry of "new" parts as we have seen for Lionel, Flyer, Ives, etc.


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