# Why would I want to go to DCC?



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to start a fight or anything. This is a naive question. I have never run or even run on a RR using DCC. Never tuched a DCC controller. I don't really entirely understand its advantages.

Right now our line runs on track power and wireless remote. I put 20 volts on the track and leave it there, and then each loco has a wireless receiver in it, either an aristo 75 mhz TE or a QSI/Airwire. 


What would DCC do for me that track power and wireless remote does not?

More control over loco functions? 
The ability to throw turnouts with the remote?
More consistent range? 






PS. I can see why people like batteries, but it's not for me--I've got no interest in going to battery, please don't tell me how great it is


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 11/06/2008 7:37 PM Right now our line runs on track power and wireless remote. I put 20 volts on the track and leave it there, and then each loco has a wireless receiver in it, either an aristo 75 mhz TE or a QSI/Airwire. 


What would DCC do for me that track power and wireless remote does not?



You are already running DCC. The QSI decoder is a DCC cdecoder. You are simply sending the signal via the Air rather then the rails. If you decided to combine the signal with the track power you likely would see little difference other then the device you hold in your hand. 

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are running airwire you are running DCC in a sense. I don't know all the technical specs but basicly AW is wireless DCC. There are a few differences, but even many of the button options are the same. Programming though, i believe is totally different. 
DCC allows you to take "total" control of your trains. Obviously, you know DCC alows for individual movement of locos, like you already do now, but it also allows the control of lights, lighting effects such as a mars light or ditch lights. DCC allows you to control the speed curve of a loco, top speed, starting speed etc. If your into it you can really tweak a loco for max performance. I use standard DCC on my HO stuff and i like it. I don't get too crazy with programming, i mainly went with it so i could control multiple locos in a similar area without using blocks, just like you do with track power and wireless control. 
Another plus of DCC is you can control switches with it. The switch gets an address just like a loco and it can be controlled from the throttle. 
Now, for large scale outdoors, i don't know how much of this would be benifical. I want to make my locos move, turn their lights on and off and control some sounds such as whistle, bell, brakes etc.... 
Personaly i think true DCC outside with switch controllers, reversing units and all the electronics wouldn't stand up for long to the weather (at least in NE oHIo). I could be wrong, but its not something i want to invest money in to try out and then ruin it. 
Mpersonal opinion is, you have made a basic wireless DCC system with what you have. Unless you really want to automate switches electronicly (you could always use air) and have "total" control of your locos, and don't want batteries, stay with what you have. 
Again this is just my opinion. Others could probly give you a bit more detailed info (and correct my goofs!) Good luck on your info search! 
Terry


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

To me, using a digital wireless remote control with multi-line display with loads of control features and having independent digitial control of each engine just completely changes the experience of running trains. I don't have direct experience with Airwire, do they have a full display on their remotes? It's completely depends on what you find important but I found it was a thing that you had no idea what you were missing till you had it and once you had it, there was no going back. I don't run trains under straight analog power anymore. You may find that what you have is plenty good for what you are needing. 

I've tried running trains with the Aristo wireless remote and I personally found it kinda clunky and rudamentary. But I know for some, very basic control is all they want and need.

If you are looking at DCC in particular, I'd see if you could find someone near you with a high end DCC wireless control system and ask to play with it some. Maybe even check out another scale like HO. 

In the end, I can't emphasize the importance of the remote. If it's not intuitive and easy to use I dont think you will be as likely to see the benefits.

Not sure if any of this goes towards answering your question... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif

And battery power really is a godsend. Without it, I couldn't change the channels on my TV. 


Raymond


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2008)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 11/06/2008 8:37 PM
To me, using a digital wireless remote control with multi-line display with loads of control features and having independent digitial control of each engine just completely changes the experience of running trains. I don't have direct experience with Airwire, do they have a full display on their remotes? It's completely depends on what you find important but I found it was a thing that you had no idea what you were missing till you had it and once you had it, there was no going back. I don't run trains under straight analog power anymore. You may find that what you have is plenty good for what you are needing. 

I've tried running trains with the Aristo wireless remote and I personally found it kinda clunky and rudamentary. But I know for some, very basic control is all they want and need.

If you are looking at DCC in particular, I'd see if you could find someone near you with a high end DCC wireless control system and ask to play with it some. Maybe even check out another scale like HO. 

In the end, I can't emphasize the importance of the remote. If it's not intuitive and easy to use I dont think you will be as likely to see the benefits.

Not sure if any of this goes towards answering your question... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />

And battery power really is a godsend. Without it, I couldn't change the channels on my TV. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


Raymond






Hey... you calling me clunky and rudamentary????? he he he them there fightin words SIR..... ha ha ha








Nick...


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Uh oh, now I've done it...







LOL


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2008)

Quote
"And battery power really is a godsend. Without it, I couldn't change the channels on my tv"


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Clunky and rudimentary is being nice... ha ha ha! 

Seriously, I really agree with Raymond. If you have the ability and/or the desire to have a high level of functionality, then it's way too much fun! 

It's not for everyone, but there's a bunch of us that have a great time with it. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I know that DCC was a way for me to go as I have many locos and I wanted to be able to run multiple trains even in opposite directions. also can be running trains and switching in the yard at he same time. No fancy wiring. Yes I use the wireless system. Very nice. Later RJD


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By paintjockey on 11/06/2008 8:08 PM
Personaly i think true DCC outside with switch controllers, reversing units and all the electronics wouldn't stand up for long to the weather (at least in NE oHIo). I could be wrong, but its not something i want to invest money in to try out and then ruin it. 

Terry


Terry Just a quick note that I am in MA and have had DCC outdoors since the early 90s. Your analysis is correct that if the device is not specifically designed for outdors use, it will not hold up to long term use outdoors. Fortunately there are items such as DCC turnout controllers that are specifically designed to be left outdoors and they do indeed hold up to the harsh NE winters and summers. For the main power units I keep them indoors in a perminate installation and run wires from them to the layout outdoors. That way I simply flip a switch and the layout is alive. Stan http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

Is the DCC you folks are using capable of running thru reverse loops and wyes without any additional wiring or switches? If not (like Lionel's TMCC) then THAT'S the best reason to NOT use it!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll add another point that nobody has mentioned yet--DCC has a huge 'tinker' factor, for those of us who like to create things that can be automated. There really is no limit to what you can make happen. You've got 24V at your disposal so you can just tap in anywhere (including rolling stock like dump cars) and get the decoder to run servos, run accessory motors, open/close couplers, control signal lights etc. etc. We're really just beginning to understand all the things that can be done. Of course some people have their whole layouts automated using computer control. Heck some use the internet and run their buddie's trains from a remote location! For me, I like the ability to fine tune performance by programming things like acceration curves, top speed, braking curves etc. I like the ability to program output voltages to dim LED's just right etc. etc. So obviously the ability to program a decoder (and that also includes sound parameters for integrated sound decoders) is absolutely essential and the biggest benefit I see from DCC. Since we switched from straight DC to DCC at our place the amount of 'playability' improved exponentially. So while some criticize how 'technical' DCC is, for me that is a big part of the fun of it...another frontier to try to conquer...reading, experimenting, implementing... 

Keith


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I can show you a few (fried) reasons not to use DCC here at the house....and this was low amperage H0 about ten years ago.....


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm curious about reverse loops too. Seems like you'd need to wire them separately no matter what track-powered system you're using.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 11/14/2008 12:44 PM
I'm curious about reverse loops too. Seems like you'd need to wire them separately no matter what track-powered system you're using.


That's what I would think that they would need to be wired up / specially controlled.


Raymond


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 11/14/2008 12:44 PM
I'm curious about reverse loops too. Seems like you'd need to wire them separately no matter what track-powered system you're using.


Yes, reverse loops have to be wired separately. However, rather than having the standard DPDT toggle like we used to, all that is needed is a reversing controller wired in line witht he power supply to that block. It will automatically sense when a train is trying to reverse (by sensing the momentary short) and reverse the polarity on the rails. The loco doesn't care, since it's getting its direction commands from the decoder the same as always. Once the hardware is installed (and it's not too expensive - usually under $50, I believe), operation is completely seamless.

Autoreversers also work well for turntables and wyes, and I've even heard of people using them to switch power for frogs without needing contacts on the throw mechanism.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

That is another reason why I changed over to DCC no hassle wiring for reverse loops. You just gota love it. Came over from the other side. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can power the autoreverser from the rails on the main line, and then it's outputs go to the insulated part of the reversing loop. 

This means 2 wires power the layout if you are so inclined. Most people in G scale (no matter what type of track power) will run more feeders to reduce voltage drop. 

But since the autoreversers are powered from the track, they can be located where they are needed with no extra wiring. 

All this junk about more wiring is just stuff detractors use to put down something they do not understand. 

To make it even simpler, the switch machine controllers can be powered from the rails also, so you can locate them next to your switches with no additional wiring for power. I have 8 running this way and will add at least 8 more. 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

DCC would work great for the 2 months of the year that the track is not fouled by whatever nature throws at it. Doing track cleaning chores prior to each run for most of the year is why I decided on battery/RC, but your milage may vary...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not for everyone. I will say that in the eternal battery vs track power war, that twigs and rocks and sap on rails is bad for either. 

Regards, Greg


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

There's one thing I don't think anyone has brought up yet. My DCC system has saved my butt at least a dozen times because it detects shorts. Here are a few examples. I was leveling track and accidentally left a metal tool across the tracks, after applying power and the loco not moving I found the tool and was sure I had fried some things, nope. Another one, after I installed my first switches I had a bad derailment and if I didn't have my DCC system I would have fried another loco and possibly myself. Another one, just yesterday I was fiddling with a new smoke unit. I was trying to find a source for a chuff trigger and accidentally touch something I should not have. I thought for sure I had fried the entire loco, nope. I don't know if all DCC systems have the short detection but my NCE does and it has paid for itself several times over


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

one thing I would want to know about would be reversing loops. I've wanted for a while to make a reversing loop, but to be honest I don't know how, especially is all my locos now are running on track power and remote. I assume on DCC you still have to isolate the loop and wire a switch to reverse polarity?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, there are micro controllers you can buy for your switches to throw the polarity correctly. As far as I know they work with either DC or DCC.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

In DCC you use an autoreverser you isolate the loop then power it thru the reverser .... when it sees the short it will swap the power in the loop so you can drive right thru ...... once hooked up you never have to think about the loop again ...... though the drawing shows you having it hooked up to the booster or main buss you can hook it to the track at the point end of the switch and draw power from there so you could drop a reverse loop anywhere in the layout without any extra wires or worry .......


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott, 

- when a reverser sees the short does the train momentarily stop or slow? that is, does it do a slight jerk or is it just as smooth of a transition as if running normal? 
- does the temporary short cause any problems after years of use, that is, will it eventually do any damage to the loco electronics or motor? 
- it seems like you'd only need gaps at one location, but the diagram shows 2? Is the second gap needed if you do not have an insulated frog?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

you never see it, the lights don't even flicker.

You need both rails gapped at both ends one way or another.

- gws


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Buy the PSR-AX from Tony's trains, it can be programmed for G scale currents, and does not false trip on sound units.

Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

you have to gap both rails at both ends otherwise you will have a dead short to the booster ......... and the "flip" in polarity in the loop while the train is running happens very fast in like .1 seconds you never even know it happens ..... if you automate or spring load the turnout you can have a loop at both ends of a layout and a single center track and just let the train run all day back and forth without touching anything ......


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

there are some restrictions in using an autoreversing module or an autoreversing booster.

1) Only one train can be crossing the gaps at a time. If you have metal wheels on your cars, this includes the end of the running train. It is helpful to offset the gaps by a quarter inch or so such that a single metal wheel set doesn't bridge both gaps at the same time but this is not absolutely required. Your reversing sections should be LONGER than the longest train that runs through them.


2) a single reversing module can handle multiple reversing loops as long as only one train is crossing any gap at one time.


3) if you have a loco running at address 0, it can behave oddly when using a reversing module

4) the modules also work for turntables and wyes


The module that Greg mentioned is a good one, it worked for me with no fuss or programming at all. If you have a way to house it out on the layout, it can be wired only to the local track as shown in the diagram above. Otherwise, you'll need to run a pair out to the reversing section.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did the mods to mine to add the audio transducer (alarm) and the heat sinks for higher current... 










Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

what is the alarm for ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a sonalert, goes off when you have a short, kinda cool.... only a couple of bucks to add. 

Regards, Greg


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## Peter Osborne (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, looks like you have the reversing unit permanently installed in a project box. Does that stay outside year round?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's the radio shack box it was designed to fit into. I don't put the lid on it... 

see the pictures on this page: *[url]http://www.elmassian.com/my-implementation-mainmenu-229*[/url] 

Regards, Greg


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