# A vote for Lithium Ion



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Weather is just getting too nice to not be running trains. So I have been outside cycling through my fleet of locos, checking everything out. 

Literally all of my NiMh battery packs were either dead, or nearly so. And ALL of my Lithium-Ion batteries provided full run times after spending the winter on a shelf. This is not new information for me, but I usually run more during the winter. This year it was just really obvious.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

I would certainly concur, Del. The Li-ions have given me excellent service since changing over to them..









I just keep in above 50 degrees when storing them in the winter. They don't like colder or freezing temperatures.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Just an FYI, I read that one should charge them, then drain them to approximately 60% charge prior to storage. Those are the instructions that came with a new Li-ion that I bought for a laptop.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Literally all of my NiMh battery packs were either dead, 
I have been charging my NiMH battery locos every 3 months plus after using them. They certainly run themselves down.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The only NiMh batteries that do not self discharge that I am aware of are the hybrid NiMh/Alkaline AA & AAA cells made by Sanyo and others. 
They come fully charged and are guaranteed to hold a 85% charge for 12 months.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

My NIMH's have a terrible self-discharge. I bought them for the Amp Hour/Dollar ratio. I just figure on putting a charge on them before using them.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I just figure on putting a charge on them before using them. 
That was my MO while using the NiMH batteries as well. It sounded reasonable--just charge the batteries before you run. What I discovered since I changed over to the Li-Ions, though, is how nice it is to not have to _plan_ when you're going to run. If I've got 30 minutes and I want to relax with a train running around the back yard while I relax, I can just grab a loco and go. No pre-planning, no "hoping" the batteries still have a charge. I've probably run trains 10 times more than I used to prior to switching to the new battery technology. Definitely one of the biggest advances in battery technology I've seen over the years in terms of its impact on how I run trains. 

Later, 

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

The charge life is great, but having to disassemble my engines to remove the batteries and finding a safe place to recharge them, is becoming a pain... just kidding.


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

I think after awhile alot of the safety warnings on LiIon batteries will be changed. like most new products I don't think the manufacturer really knew what they would do in the field only in bench tests. 

I work in the fire service and almost every battery we have is LiIon the radios, heart monitor, flashlights, haz-mat monitoring equipment thermal imagerers..... 
And trust me we abuse our equipment. The biggest problem we would have was as noted above. A piece of equipment that wasn't used on a normal basis would be dead when taken out. If left plugged in to maintain a charge it would kill it as well. LiIon take extreme temps and under water pressure very well. 

just my $.02 your mileage may vary.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

I see the consensous is that Li-Ion are the way to go for battery operation. I have been using the crest/Aristocraft ones with my Train Engineer for about a year now, and like the way they work. I have been working on a less expensive wirelees control system for a few of my trains and in doing so plan on building a few 14.4 volt L-ion battery packs to power them. I have purchased the 3.7v 3300mah Li-ion cellss along with the charge/dis-charge control monitor PCB's to go with them. 

Anyone have a suggestion on a good 14.4v smart charger for Li-ion battery packs at a reasonable price as I will be needing to get a couple of them. I have been looking at this one Tenergy Universal Smart Charger for Li-Ion/Polymer Battery Pack (3.7V - 14.8V, 1-4 cells) (Item Number: 01211) http://www.tenergybattery.com/index...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27 

Thoughts anyone? 

Dan S. 

Dan S.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That's one of two chargers I use. It works well enough for me, and I like the variable voltage feature so I can charge varius voltage batteries, since some of my locos use 7.4 and 11.1 volts in addition to my "standard" 14.8 volt packs. 

Later, 

K


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Dan, 

I'm a little bias but we manufacture a great smart charger called the CR-1 that charges NiCd, Nimh, Lithium-ion & polymer battery-packs from 7.2V - 22.2V. 

Check it out at http://www.cordlessrenovations.com/ 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dan.

You might want to check out the IMax-B6 from Oomdel[/b] They are only US$29.99 plus freight. A mains power supply to suit is about US$8.

They also have a the IMax-B5 at US$22.99 each.

As a (very) satisfied customer I can say Oomodel is a reliable supplier.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

When I click on the "Read more..." link below the image of the CR-1 I get a "Page Not Found error 404".


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

That cordlessrenovations link takes me to a website called GoDaddy.com that is flogging domain names and real estate in the USA. 

Weird Huh???


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Rick 

When I click on your link I get a blank page. 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's because their site is: *http://cordlessrenovatio...trong>**

cordlessrenovations.com is not currently owned or set up, it's under godaddy.com control.

maybe he let the domain name cordlessrenovations.com expire....

Greg 

*


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Wierd... Last night the .com address worked (got the same page you see with the .info domain) but the link below the CR-1 image still gives me the 404 Page Not Found error.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

My preferred Lithium-Ion battery pack supplier is All-Battery.com. Specifically, I use the Tenergy 14.8V 4400mah packs and the Tenergy 14.8V charger. Great service with reasonable prices.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I looked it up, Rick does own cordlessrenovations.com so they probably have their DNS A or C record messed up. the domain name is hosted by Godaddy.... I use them too, good company. 

I'm sure this will be fixed soon, I use their domain management and this is a simple fix... 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

What kind of life are users of the Lithium-Ion batteries realizing? Is anybody running their originally purchased Li-Ion packs plus five years? My experience with these cells has been less than stellar, starting about three years I’ve had numerous single cell failures. 

I have several engines rigged with Lithium presently; however they have not seen much run time and or age to garner any data to suggest long term feasibility and or life cycles. In the last few years I have replaced and or discarded at the very least 20 Lithium-Ion battery packs. My use for the most part has been Li-ion flight packs for Giant Scale RC aircraft. I also use and maintain at least 40 Li-Poly batteries for small RC aircraft to power brushless motors and onboard servos and receivers of various capacity and voltage with similar results. If it matters I am acutely aware of the charging, storing and proper use of this cell chemistry, been using, testing and grading these cells since 2005. While I like the form factor and Lithium chemistry behavior the life expectancy is not all that, nor is Lithium durable compared to other cell chemistries. 

Lithium cells don’t weather heat well, nor do they produce good capacity and or current numbers when cold… Heat is destructive in that it greatly influences the life of these cells. 

Michael Glavin


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I just started using them in 2009, so ask me in 2014.  

Having said that, I was replacing NiMH cells every three or four years as well, so for me that's a moot point. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not able to comment on the longevity of Li-Ion and Li-Poly batteries, but I can comment on NiMh. 
NiMh have a high self discharge rate and the failure rate is like Kevin says. They don't seem to last very long at all. Especially the smaller cells, until the advent of the Hybrid Alkaline/NiMh chemistry. 
On the other hand I know of plenty of users who are still running 10 - 12 yo NiCd batteries.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I switched to Li-Ion batteries in 2005. Initially, I used A-C batteries, which were replaced at no charge by A-C. Since then, most of my batteries (14) came from Batteryspace.com, except for the last 2 which came from Cordless Renovations. I had one battery from Batteryspace that wouldn't hold a charge, this one was in warranty and was replaced. Last year, I had one of my year old batteries from Batteryspace fail to take a charge. This one was rebalanced by Rick Ishard and has worked fine since.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello everyone,
Late last night we changed the SSL and hosting account on our new Cordless Renovations.com website. This change has taken longer than expected and should be up and running again later this evening. To read more about our CR-1 Smart Charger, go to our website at http://www.cordlessrenovations.com/ click on "products" "chargers" then the CR-1. We are also in the process of updating our shopping cart, this may take a couple of days...please check back later this weekend.

Thanks for your patience,
Rick Isard
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks for the info Kevin, looking forward to your experiences at a later date. 

I concur with your thoughts Tony, NiMH isn't all that. Learned early in 2000 that NiMH offers a few desirable improvements over NiCD's but the shortcomings and additional cost outweighed same... And as you note NiCad's can and do last ten years or better with proper care and feeding. 

Jim, not surprised you’ve realized the turnovers you note, aligns itself with my experience. Luckily you didn’t bear the cost to replace the defective batteries. 

I suspect were going to see similar failure modes with model trains as I have with RC Aircraft and Lithium with the present offerings and technology. 
Li-Poly prices have really came down and with the ability to utilize "balance technology" standard on current offerings we more likely than not will realize improved life cycles. Considering you can buy 5000mAh 14.8V 4S1P Li-Po’s for $30.00 or 22.2V 5000mAh 5S1P for $40.00 with balance charger pigtails its a win-win IMO. 

Presently I’m rigging a few USAT F3’s with two 2200 mAh 3S1P Li-Po’s @ 22.2 volts that fit through the rear door, the gig hear is they can be removed easily through the door and charged or used in other applications, so the batteries can be moved around with no more effort than unplugging them, total cost $23.00 for two batteries. 

Rick, how about offerring Li-Ion batteries with balance charger pigtails, the few extra dollars to the consumer would be well worth it IMO. I've assembled several batteries myself with same with great results. 

Michael Glavin


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Michael, 

We have had many clients ask us to add the cell balancing PCB to their battery-pack. But, it's more than a few extra dollars to offer a cell balancing PCB, more like $45.00 - $69.00 per pack more depending on voltage. We balance all our cells prior to manufacturing a pack, plus all our PCB's won't let our lithium-ion battery-packs get below the voltage cut-off where you would need a cell balancing PCB. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

No insult meant towards trail car fans, but, in the following I am leaving out trail car installations, as I believe most operators want the locos to be self contained. 

I certainly understand the attractiveness of the low cost of Li-Poly batteries now they have entered the mass hobby market, resulting in incredibly low prices. 
However, the requirement to charge Li-Poly battery packs in a safe environment and be able to balance the cells, means they must be removed from the loco to do so. 
This is not always convenient. Some locos, like the F3's, E8's etc it will be relatively easy to do. However, with most locos it will be very difficult, if not impossible to easily remove battery packs for charging and balancing. 
Assuming there were no safety issues, they could perhaps be charged in situ, but the wiring becomes much more complicated. 

It seems Li-Ion is going the same way as brushed motors in the car, boat and plane hobby market. 
i.e. Superseded by newer technology, not all of which can be applied to our hobby. 

I have been looking around outside the regular car, boat & plane hobbies for a low cost ESC that can handle adequate voltage and brushed motors. 
I have found some and will be releasing them as soon as testing is completed.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Rick,
I was suggesting it was as easy attaching a JST plug equipped pigtail of the appropriate wire/cell count to an existing battery pack with PCB’s in play. There are alternatives which may suit others which offers the benefits of balance chargers without the need for same, see below.
Balancing the cells initially has merit BUT, sooner than later the cells will emit different voltages. Even minute differences in individual cell internal resistance will unbalance your pack to a notable degree. Unbalanced cells (miss-matched or unequal voltages) which reach charge or discharge voltage thresholds prior to adjoined cells is undesirable...
PCB’s (protection circuit board AKA a PCM protection circuit module) have the potential to limit MAX charge and MAX discharge. Typical PCB and or PCM’s protect cells from over-charging, over-discharging and in some cases short circuits and current draw limits... NO cell equilibrium or cell balance functions. Currently there are intelligent PCM offerings that do more, such as….
Overcharge (4.35V +/- 0.25V per cell) Balance each cell at Max. 4.20V +/- 0.025V per cellBattery pack from over-discharge (2.40V +/- 0.08V per cell) Over-discharge detection protection: 2 - 16A Maximum Continuous discharge current: *model specific* Protection circuitry resistance:


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael. 

I must admit I am a neophyte with Li-Poly but I am always open to ideas which could be made to work successfully. 
For the Australian market I will investigate the importation of suitable Li-Poly packs of varying voltages. 
I already have easy access to the IMax B6 and the other chargers that company makes, at quite reasonable prices. 
Making up suitable JST connectors is also a straightforward matter for me. The OZ JST agent is about 5 minutes drive from where I am currently living and I have a small order specialist cable assembler company nearby. 

I take it the JST monitoring connectors are in addition to the actual charging cable leads? 

Thanks for the ideas.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

I've been using a Li-poly 14.8v battery in my 4-6-0 for just over six months now with zero issues--not even a balancer. I don't let it run completely down, though. We'll see if it lasts long-term.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 29 Apr 2011 11:54 PM 


I take it the JST monitoring connectors are in addition to the actual charging cable leads? 



Tony,

Correct, over the counter Li-Po’s batteries are NOW typically equipped with ancillary balance charger pigtails. I have added my own charge monitoring pigtails to numerous Li-Ion batteries without issue. I probably have 100 or better batteries to play with so I experiment.

The PCM’s I mentioned previously are likely going to play out as the simplest and least invasive approach without the need for pigtails and balance chargers. I’m experimenting with same presently, so far so good.

Picture below is a standard off the shelf 5000mAh 4S1P 14.8V Li-Po with JST pigtail, cost $29.99 online.

*Spec.*
Capacity: 5000mAh
Voltage: 4S1P / 4 Cell / 14.8v
Discharge: 15C Constant / 20-22C Burst
Weight: 475g (including wire, plug & shrink wrap)
Dimensions: 143x51x32mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH 












14.8V PCM, Applicable for 4 Cells Li-ion / Li-polymer Battery Pack with 10A Max discharging current 
[*]Internally trim Voltage limits to balance each cell. Must wait 30 minutes after fully charge to allow the pack to perform balance function before using.[*]Dimension (LxWxH): 3.5" (90mm) x 1.6" (40mm)x 0.2"(4.3mm)[*]Built in Fuel Gauge socket for connection to our Fuel Gauge display board to display battery energy level. [/list]









Michael Glavin


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Robbie Hanson on 30 Apr 2011 12:19 AM 
I've been using a Li-poly 14.8v battery in my 4-6-0 for just over six months now with zero issues--not even a balancer. I don't let it run completely down, though. We'll see if it lasts long-term. 
One of the problems in using Lithium batteries for trains is the protection circuitry, or lack thereof. If it has protection, when the battery reaches discharge, your train will stop dead in its tracks. Murphey's Law says this will occur either in the tunnel or on top of the mountain. If it has no protection, and you run it down too far, you will damage the battery.

My new G-Scale Graphics RailBoss Plus addresses these problems with a built in Low Battery Warning System and a Hard Cutoff. With a little experimentation, you can program the RailBoss to give you a warning about 10 minutes prior to the protection board kicking in. This allows you to get the train back home under its own power. As a backup, or if your battery pack doesn't have a protection board in it (such as most Li-Pos sold for use in aircraft), there is a built in hard cutoff at 3.0V per cell. 


Even if you don't typically run your trains long enough to discharge the batteries completely, this warning feature gives you one less thing to worry about, especially during an open house day!


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

? Michael 
is the 29.99 for a 18.5v or a 14.8v and how much for a fuel gauge ? 

thanks


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dick 

4S1P 14.8V is $29.99, 5S1P is $39.99 at Hobby King, they even have cheaper batteries that are B grade which is fine in our application. 

Fuel Gauge is $8.00 at Batteryspace.com 

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Del, 

Good idea on your Railboss Plus low voltage warning... RC Aircraft ESC's also offer low voltage warnings audible and power down to idle and such to let you know you nearing the discharge cut-off threshold. 

Michael


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 30 Apr 2011 09:36 AM 
Posted By Robbie Hanson on 30 Apr 2011 12:19 AM 
I've been using a Li-poly 14.8v battery in my 4-6-0 for just over six months now with zero issues--not even a balancer. I don't let it run completely down, though. We'll see if it lasts long-term. 
One of the problems in using Lithium batteries for trains is the protection circuitry, or lack thereof. If it has protection, when the battery reaches discharge, your train will stop dead in its tracks. Murphey's Law says this will occur either in the tunnel or on top of the mountain. If it has no protection, and you run it down too far, you will damage the battery.

My new G-Scale Graphics RailBoss Plus addresses these problems with a built in Low Battery Warning System and a Hard Cutoff. With a little experimentation, you can program the RailBoss to give you a warning about 10 minutes prior to the protection board kicking in. This allows you to get the train back home under its own power. As a backup, or if your battery pack doesn't have a protection board in it (such as most Li-Pos sold for use in aircraft), there is a built in hard cutoff at 3.0V per cell. 


Even if you don't typically run your trains long enough to discharge the batteries completely, this warning feature gives you one less thing to worry about, especially during an open house day! 


I'm only battery-powering this engine as a travel unit to take to train shows, ops sessions, etc.; I don't run battery at home. It's running an original Aristo TE in the tender with the battery on top. With a .5 amp or so load (it's a second gen electric 4-6-0, lightly modified), my 5 amp hour battery will last longer than I will. I've run it 6-7 hours with zero issues, and I don't foresee running it anywhere near that long anytime soon.


Thanks for the offer anyway, though!


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 30 Apr 2011 11:33 AM 
Del, 

Good idea on your Railboss Plus low voltage warning... RC Aircraft ESC's also offer low voltage warnings audible and power down to idle and such to let you know you nearing the discharge cut-off threshold. 

Michael 
The "Warning" is done via the front light and throttle. The throttle is cut in half, which either stops or nearly stops the train AND the front headlight is flashing, so you know WHY it stopped. You then move the throttle to zero to make full power available again. Then run it home, with the headlight still flashing (in case you inadvertently were messing with the throttle trying to get it going again before seeing the headlight).


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

Am I the only one that thinks this way or have others thought about it as well. It is true that the Li-Ion battery give you no warning when they reach the point where they shut down and hopefully not in a tunnel. But with some of the PCB charge/Discharge boards that I have seen advertised andthe one that Michael Glavin pictured, have a connector for a fuel gage, which am assuming is some sort of LED that lets you know when it is low. Why not use the fuel gage to turn on a Light in the cab of the locomotive to let the operator know that the battery is running low. Seams like a simple soultion to me. I plan on doing that with the battery packs I am building when all the parts arrive. 

Dan S.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 30 Apr 2011 01:50 PM 
Posted By Michael Glavin on 30 Apr 2011 11:33 AM 
Del, 

Good idea on your Railboss Plus low voltage warning... RC Aircraft ESC's also offer low voltage warnings audible and power down to idle and such to let you know you nearing the discharge cut-off threshold. 

Michael 
The "Warning" is done via the front light and throttle. The throttle is cut in half, which either stops or nearly stops the train AND the front headlight is flashing, so you know WHY it stopped. You then move the throttle to zero to make full power available again. Then run it home, with the headlight still flashing (in case you inadvertently were messing with the throttle trying to get it going again before seeing the headlight). 

Del,

Same method as employed by aircraft audible noise or flashing LED (not real useful but what the heck), subsequently cycle throttle and off you go. If you heed the warning you have plenty of time to land.

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dan, 

Yeap; Li-Ions with basic PCB's drop out and leave you stranded. The intelligent PCB/PCM's offer outputs for fuel gauges, displays and or LED's warning you in advance. You can also purchase ancillary monitoring modules $3.00 and up which effectively do the same thing for batteries with balance charger pigtails/ports. Simply plug and play, it's all good! 

Michael


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

The problem with most fuel gages, such as the one mentioned above, is they require you to stop the train, find the gage and read it. Timing that with end of discharge is unlikely. If you can hack it and put a light somewhere on the loco, that is an improvement. But will that light really get your attention in time? Again, not likely. That is why I like the method used in the RailBoss Plus. The train stops or drastically slows down. That will get your attention (or your guest's) every time.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Del, 

Well, some work as you note, others do lots more, but some simply make NOISE at 12V...... The LED units could be hacked if so desired to drive the headlight or? 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are some inexpensive wireless fuel gauges that report back to you on battery status/charge. That's another alternative. 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's one of those battery fuel gauges...pretty neat IMHO. Hobby King battery fuel gauge


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If I was into battery and li-ion, I would certainly have one of those... I've seen even smaller, cheaper ones. 

Greg


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Michael Glavin!!!

just recieved my lipo's(14.8volt 5k mh)with the B6 AC Charger from Hobby King ,good price and good performance ! Can't beat that price here in the states!

Manfred 
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