# Inquiry on locomotives



## Hendri (Aug 15, 2012)

Good day. 


I am new to this and would appreciate it if you can improve my knowledge on the following brand names (LGB, USA, Bachmann, Aristo, AML) of locomotives in the following categories : Weatherproofing, Safety, Audio, Mobility, Power, Cost, Insulation, Maintenance and warranty. If it is possible can you inform me on which of the brand names has performed the best in any of these categories and which one you would personally choose to buy ? I am looking for an electric powered locomotive, scaled 1:29 for my garden.


Thank you for your time and comments.


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Hendri,
That is a really expansive question you asked and probably does not have a set answer. Most everyone has their favorites and thus the answers will be very subjective. Maybe if you could narrow down what you want a little it would be easier. Things like era you want to model,layout raduis and grades,length of trains,etc.


----------



## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Google would be a good thing for most of your questions, LGB and Bachmann to big, Aristocraft has to many Quality issues and most of the time run poorly. Plus rumor has it they may be having $ issues and may not be around much longer. AML and USATs are nice locos and run really well, they seem to be the go to loco for the average 1/29th guy.

Jethro


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Hendri, I locked your duplicate thread in the Public Forum, so we could continue the discussion here. 

If you're doing 1:29, your choices are pretty much Aristo-Craft, USA Trains, and AML. All three manufacturers have had "bullet-proof" locos and lemons alike. There's no hard-and-fast reputation that any one manufacturer enjoys. Best to find a locomotive that piques your interest, then come back with a question about that specific loco. And even then, you'll get opinions from "greatest thing" to "don't touch it." But by and large, your chances of getting good service out of a loco from any of those three manufacturers far outweighs your chances of getting a dog. 

Later, 

K


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

As mentioned, if you are set on 1:29 then your only scale choices are Aristocraft, USA Trains, and AML. Aristocraft and USAT both sell some things which are not in 1:29. The aristo "classic" and the USAT "American sereis" are both in 1:24, more or less. LGB is more or less in 1:24; Bachmann in 1:22 and 1:20. MTH and accucraft are in 1:32 in 1:32. 


I don't own any locos from AML, but I have rolling stock from all three. I've had locos from each manufacturer run well out of the box, and I've had to do repairs on soem right out of the box. In general, I expect trouble/problems with any large scale locos I buy. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. Aristocraft has probably been more prone to trouble than USAT for me, but then I have more aristocraft stuff.


----------



## Hendri (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you for your opinions. My apologies for posting in more than one forum as I said I am fairly new to this. I will be posting more questions in this forum if you would like to follow the conversation and I would appreciate any comments and opinions on all types of electric locomotives. I mainly want to know what regular users think of the brand name of locomotives they use, what troubles them and what they think are its good qualities. Thanks to those who answered my questions. 

Hendri


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Hendri on 15 Aug 2012 12:38 PM 
Thank you for your opinions. My apologies for posting in more than one forum as I said I am fairly new to this. I will be posting more questions in this forum if you would like to follow the conversation and I would appreciate any comments and opinions on all types of electric locomotives. I mainly want to know what regular users think of the brand name of locomotives they use, what troubles them and what they think are its good qualities. Thanks to those who answered my questions. 

Hendri While it may be a bit late in comming, but as they say "Better late than never."

Welcome aboard Hendri.









As a new member, you might want to check out the *FAQ* (always available from the *Resources* section of the main blue menu bar at the top of every page). The answers to a number of questions as to how the site works and how to do stuff can be found here.

You may also wish to familiarize yourself with the *Forum Rules and Guidelines*, also always available as a sticky thread at the top of the *Public Forum*.

Again, welcome to the forums!!


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Welcome to MLS, many large scalers will mix LGB, Aristo, USA ect and not worry about the slight scale differances, espicaly when running in the garden as from 10 feet away it all looks great normaly. Bachmann does 2 different scales, thier smaller Big Hauler stuff and thier Spectrum line of 1:20.3 scale which represents American 3 foot narrow gauge railways. Those engines and cars are noticably larger than everything else and take more planning for clearances from plantings, buildings ect. Like anything made in China, quality control will vary widely amoung products from the same manufacture. LGB pretty much runs like a fine swiss watch right out of the box, most all the older Lehmann product was produced in West Germany, only toward the end did some of it get made in Asia to LGB's standards. I have seen Aristo/REA that runs fine and ones that run horrible, test run them before you buy if at all possible. The dealer I prefer is Watt's Train Station in Zionsville, Indiana. Dave test runs everything, even LGB before letting it out of the store. Saves anguish, gas and tempers later if it doesnt run when the customer gets home. He deals mainly in large scale collections with a focus on LGB but has a little of everything. Excellent prices and customer service and does do mail order and online ordering. I myself prefer LGB locomotives, thier drives are silky smooth, parts are once again available from both Marklin/LGB and thru Massoth who made the parts for LGB before they changed ownership. What you settle on for engines and cars depends on what style/era of trains you want to model or enjoy. Obviously if its mainline USA style diesels, then USA, Aristocraft and LGB are your choices. I find the plastics used by LGB more tollerant of handling and abuse than USA or Aristo. Thier plastics seem more brittle than what LGB uses, but they are easlier to glue than LGB if a part does get broke. LGB uses Luran S by BASF that is very difficult to glue but very UV light resistant for outdoor use. I would find a dealer your comfortable buying from, has a good return policy if your not happy with your purchase and you can always as here as you find models you wish to purchase and want some opinions from owners here. Welcome to large scale! Its a blast! Mike and Michele T


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Adding to what Mike has posted above as far as scale is concerned. 
LGB advertised 1:22.5 scale for years but not a lot of their equipment is actually 1:22.5 scale. The US type ocos and cars are typically 1:26 to 1:27 scale, a bit larger than 1:29 scale USA Trains and Aristocraft but size wise those locos/cars still go veryu well with 1:29 scale equipment. 
LGB quality is probably the best in that price range but their fidelity to the prototype and detailing is not nearly as good as USA Trains equipment. They go more for robustness and reliability. 
As was mentioned before, you really need to pick a specific loco or locos and then get some information on those particular ones to decide what to buy.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Electric powered meaning track power, or that the original loco was electric?


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Hendri:

I have noticed the same question in 4 or 5 different forums and posts. In order to make it easier for everyone to follow the answers and your responses it might be a good iidea to go to the other posts and redirect responces to this forum. That way we won't be duplicating someone elses answer.

Chuck

Where do you live? It is highly likely that there is a graden railway club in your area. I would suggest that you try to locate one and go to meetings, open houses and talk to as many members as you can. That would be the best way to get your questions answered, but be prepared for conflicting answers, both here and one to one. In the end you will have to decide what you like and go from there, as all manufacturers have good engines and occasionally an engine that needs repair, either out of the box, or after an extended period of running. 

Until we know what era you are interested in running, North Amweican, European, steam, early diesel, electiic, modern diesel, etc., it s hard to make any meaningful recommendations.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Honestly, while I can see you (the OP) are really trying to make the very best decision.... without narrowing down the choices, you are asking: "hey, I need 10 years of experience in large scale trains written down in analytical form for these following categories"... 

Besides the fact that this information is not really objective data, and people have different subjective criteria, you are really asking a lot. 

I read forums for about 9 years before I ever posted, and read tons of posts on people's experiences... there is a lot of good information out there for the reading. 

"serving up" 10 or more years of information, by typing a huge response to cover all bases is a lot of work. 

Most of the advice you are getting here is advising you to narrow your focus so people can help without writing tons of information. 

I think Kevin's response best describes mine too... unless you want a detailed review on EVERY loco ever made in every scale, find something you like and then learn about. There's very few locos that cannot be made to run well. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is my oppinion... you can take it or leave it...

I would buy a few used things first... make sure you are really into things before you shell out lots of dollars...

I would go with an Aristo-Craft FA unit... they are plentiful... and easy to find... under $100 all the time...
and they run well... there are differences between the older and newer models... the older sit up higher....
you may be able to fins some of the older models new in teh box for under $100 also...

as far as rolling stock goes... 

the Ariso caboose is a little large for 1/29th... that being said... they can be found for $50 to $60 new...

Look in the classifieds here and even craigslist... you can find USA TRAINS and ARISTO rolling stock cheap...
I'm picking up 4 cars today from craigslist for $85
My buddy is grabbing 2 USA Box Cars for $50

I think you could put together a decent train for $200 - 250 range...

Track is gonna be expensive... but you can find it used also...

my 2 cents 

Philip


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Every manufacturer has pro's and CONS and so does every locomotive. Everyone has different experiences too. In short I'd say price doesn't mean a locomotive is better or worse and neither does the company. 

In my experiences (And others on here will disagree because of their own experiences) I was where you were at last year and here's what a year of research and time has provided me with: 


Weather Proofing: None are, all will fade, rust, and have problems if left outdoors. I have some crappy, $5 cars I might leave outside but they look like crap and I care less about them than a single blade of grass. If anything is important don't leave it outside. I'm building a train shed that never will get sun, water, or much wind on it and I still don't know if I want to leave any cars in it. G scale stuff lasts for a very long time if taken care of. I bought most of my stuff on ebay (30 locos and 140 cars) and some are over 30 years old. I got two locos with rusted truck springs (everything else was perfectly fine) which gives some weathering which is good and bad. I have some cars that had rusted axles which were at times a PAIN to clean and get rolling smoothly again. 1 bad axle in a car/consist can make running stuff annoying. Maybe I'd leave a new bright battery operated POS locomotive outside if I won it and didn't care about it, but don't plan on anything but track being weather proof. 

Safety: No sure what you mean by this, model trains aren't dangerous when used in normal ways. Biggest safety issue is making sure you don't trip and drop a locomotive or car, or grab it wrong and damage the models. G scale models are big and may look tough but they all have pieces that can break. I've heard some local club members complain their USA trains are so detailed they brake pieces off more often but I can tell you I have 3 of 6 SD45's that had air tanks broken off during shipment, 2 of them were new and 1 SD45 I got on ebay had already been glued/fixed by the previous owner. As you get more detailed things become more fragile so be careful with how you move things around. 

Audio: Audio in G scale sucks unless you are spending about $100 or more per loco and install it yourself. Few locos have sound (Cheapest w/sound are the Bachmann steam engines) but their detail is lower, mostly because they're often marketed towards people running trains around Christmas trees. I could be wrong but I think there's a good chance Bachmann gives you more value for what you get because they can mass produce more of them than say Aristocraft or USA who have smaller target markets. You can find some nice locos with sound installed but you're paying top dollar. MTH is 1:32 and often has sound in their locos but MTH also has their own power system they push which most people avoid like the plague because they prefer DC, DCC or Revolution instead but MTH's MTS system isn't that bad for basic layouts. 

Mobility: Again not sure what you're asking for. I'd refer back to the paragraph about safety. Locos are heavy and most have to be carried certain ways. I'm sure just about everyone here has broken a part on a locomotive. Some have built special train carriers and Split-Jay makes some carriers as well to protect engines when moving them. You'll also notice that a lot of G scallers keep the boxes their locos, and often times cars, come in. Big items need to be handled carefully when being moved and the boxes are often the best way. 

Power: If you're talking about pulling power, I bet Greg has info on his site but I know there are several people who have table after table of stats of what locos can pull what and the kicker is it can vary from one locomotive to the other, the particular year the models were made, the type of track, the grade, the cars (some people replace all plastic wheels with metal to reduce resistance). If you're talking about electrical power supplies then you'll want to look around and pick your own solution. Simlpe layouts often just use DC, some guys do DCC, others like the new Revolution(Very popular for battery powered). I'm waiting for Rail Pro to release their G scale control hopefully later this year. 

Cost: Expensive. No way around it. You want a cheap loco buy an FA-1 on ebay for about $100-$150. Old ones can often still work well (if they weren't used much). You're really looking at $250-$400 for locos at their cheapest. I picked up several SD-45's new for about $280 retail are like $430, and often sold around $350. USA has a good value for their locos. PICO are more toy'ish in my opinion, as well are most of Bachmanns (though their K-27 and other high end locos are VERY nice and some think towards the highest detail of any G scale locos). LGB used to be bullet proof and worth the price. In the last 10'ish years, as the company was failing, they changed to having stuff produced in China and some LGB was sketchy. LGB is going again and it sounds like they're doing better but they are at the higher cost/value end. 

Don't put all your money into locos/cars. It's easy to spend more far more on the track and switches than on the locomotives and cars. 

Insulation: ? Not sure what you mean here 

Maintenance: Very little for all brands. Basically run until something breaks is how how 98% of people here work it appears. Mainly because things will break unexpectedly 99% of the time and while you're fixing stuff you might lube or clean stuff out. 

Warranty: Good luck. It's hit or miss. I called Aristocraft to get replacement parts for about 10 locos (rails, couplers, etc) and the guy appeared frustrated that I had more than 1 or 2 parts. I offered (and did) send him an e-mail with all the parts and their specific part #'s and I never heard back. I also had a USA locomotive that had a broken wheel pivot and never got an e-mail back but 3 days later a new part was in my mailbox ($30 part btw). I also have some Hartland locomotives and they're awesome for warranty, smaller company and if the guy doesn't have the part in stock he'll make it within days and send it out, no waiting for China on their stuff. (I think Hardland is about the only company that I could say that if you pay more you'll actually appreciate it in the long run). 

In the end, G scale IMHO is a mess, disorganized, unreliable, annoying and often frustrating scale. It's a small market and no one appears to be able to make good money in it for an extended amount of time. You only get much less out of it than you put in. Not everyone can budget to do a layout they want to in G when compared to other scales but it's the only outdoor scale. I wish someone made HO UV protected ties, I'd have done that in a heart beat -- Sure if you run some non UV protected trains outdoors they'll get bleached but for those of us that run at night or only a few hours here and there it doesn't matter a whole lot when the cars cost 1/5th-1/10th the price of G scale cars. 

I'm sure this comes off as a rant, but if it didn't I wouldn't be being honest from my experiences. I wish the hobby were bigger and the cost of production (since quantity is low) allowed us to do more of what we wanted without feeling the pinch. (aristo track being out of stock for 3 months, no revolution controllers because of the screen supplier change for 6 months, etc) G scale popularity is acting like the stock market and businesses don't want to take risks and that leaves us hobbiests waiting for every little new thing that comes out. People often pick another scale because it's more cost effective that leaves G scale for those who are less concerned with money (a shrinking percentage of people because those with money often chose other/newer hobbies to spend their money on) and the passionate which can sometimes have limited budgets. If you pay attention to the model railroad magazines, G barely gets a mention because there's such a small market and not much money in it. 

But in the end it's a FUN hobby and rewarding. Just plan ahead and find a realistic goal that you'll enjoy that won't require you to pay much attention to your savings account. 

And if you're real new, check into the bachmann sets and their new brass track, they may be 'starter'ish but if you don't stay in the hobby you won't be as unhappy with what you spent.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I was going to suggest checking out the product reviews or look for related posts in the archives but I see that they are gone! If you have access to old Garden Railways magazines or better yet, old Finescale/Outdoor Railroader magazines (mostly from the 90's to about 2006) you will find a plethora of information on all of these engines. (_This_ is why I will always put actual paper and ink publications above the internet! It may take up some room but I still have _all_ of the product reviews and pics! You want the product review of the very first _Spectrum _locomotive? Got it and it _wasn't_ the Shay!)


----------



## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

The guys here gave you great advice. My two cents:
I myself have several brands of equipment. I feel MTH is truely the best value. They are built to last with proper bearings and steel gears. Mine are all still running after years. Sound control and smoke built in. Most everyone I meet shuns them? Now LGB may give you that kind of performance at a much higher overall price? USA and Aristo have had production issues and with some guidance you can choose a decent enough model. You will have to add sound and control if wanted. Do you want DCC with programming? 
That's where the real problem is. Finding out how deep you wish to dive in. What type of track? How big a layout? Battery or track power? How many hours running time? How many trains and engines will run at the same time? How big will the trains be? I prefer to run several diesels at a time. I like to pull as many cars as I can get my hands on. I prefer to do this without hastling with programming (for me). A lot of better sound boards are coming out now with advanced features. I do like Aristo's past innovations and USA's engines detailing. I'm still waiting to see how the AML GP60s are built. With SS track prices so high if I started over I maybe would go battery on cheaper track. Watch the UTUBE videos doing a search for G scale and decide what you'd like to build.
Good luck and keep asking before you dive in. Most brands quality has improved. Maybe it's competition over such a limited market?


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Hendri... especially since you say you are new to this track gauge, i'm just curious what factors influenced your decision to go with 1:29 scale?


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

If we say, "Something is to scale", that normally applies that every direction is more or less to scale. With that said 1/29 is not a scale, albeit often described as such.

Standard gauge railroads can only be represented "to-scale" on 45mm track (that's what we are using here), in 1:32. If 1/29 would be a scale then the track would have to be ~50mm wide.

So the question arises how prototypical do you want to be. If the answer is "I don't care" then anything goes.

LGB has different products for different railroad lines, their narrow gauge (1m in prototpye) products for the European railroads (such as RhB and HSB) are 1:22.5 (with some artistic freedoms)
Bachman and Accucraft cater to American narrow gauge (3' in prototype) and they are 1:20.3 in scale. Kiss and TrainLine45 both cater to the 1:22.5 market (HSB and RhB). Actually if you would take a ride on either of the two railroads, you might get infatuated with it (like everybody else who did ) and then it is an easy choice.

MTH and others cater to standard gauge (1.435 m or in US measurements 4 ft 8½ in) in 1:32 scale.

USA Trains, Aristocraft, LGB standard gauge products, and Piko are all rubber scale and in one direction 1:27 in another 1:29 and in another maybe 1:25 (artifical stretching while still fitting on 1:32 scale track width). All rubber scale products are size wise compatible and they were stretched in such a way that they are looking OK also with narrow guage LGB rollingstock.

The one thing that doesn't look so good is to mix and match 1:20.3 scale wiith Rubber Scale.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Axel, before you go too far in casting aspersions on 1:29 as a "scale," recall that similar (if not greater) differences between the scale of the model and the specific gauge of the track exist in O scale (1:48 on 32mm track) and OO scale (1:76 running on 16.5mm track) as well as other commonly-accepted model railroading "scales." I'm not saying your argument about accurate track gauge isn't valid, just that it's hardly unique in model railroading circles. _Within that context,_ 1:29 on 45mm track most certainly is a "scale" every bit as valid as any other. Certainly we've plenty of examples of members' 1:29 railroads and models on this forum alone which would be textbook examples of scale model railroading done right. 

Just for fun - common model railroading scales that don't precisely match their track gauge: 

1:29 on 45mm track = 51.4", a difference of 5" from prototype 
1:30.5 (British "10mm scale) on 45mm track = 54", a difference of 2.5" from prototype 
1:48 on 32mm track = 60", a difference of 3.5" from prototype 
1:43 (European O scale) on 32mm track = 54", a difference of 2.5" from prototype 
1:76 on 16.5mm track = 48", a difference of 8.5" from prototype 
1:148 (British N scale) on 9mm track = 52.4", a difference of 4" from prototype 

Just something to keep in mind whenever we want to bash 1:29 for being "inaccurate." 

Later, 

K


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 17 Aug 2012 11:43 AM 
Axel, before you go too far ...

1:29 on 45mm track = 51.4", a difference of *(i don't care)*
1:30.5 (British "10mm scale) on 45mm track = 54", a difference of *(i don't care)*
1:48 on 32mm track = 60", a difference of *(i don't care)*
1:43 (European O scale) on 32mm track = 54", a difference of *(i don't care)*
1:76 on 16.5mm track = 48", a difference of *(i don't care)*
1:148 (British N scale) on 9mm track = 52.4", a difference of *(i don't care)*

hello? is your name Hendri? i asked the question because i am curious about his stating right off that he is interested in 1:29 scale and as i said, mostly because he is new to this gauge track. i am done trying to present arguments one way or the other to someone convinced that their scale is correct. nothing i say is not going to change their mind regardless of any facts presented.

so please, i get an answer from the person i asked?
i am interested in how Hendri arrived at his decision.

thank you...gary


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yikes, Gary. I wasn't even thinking about your inquiry. I was responding to Axel's post about 1:29 not being a "scale," pointing out that if his argument were true, there would be few "scales" in model railroading at all. They're all "close enough" for most purposes. 

Hendri can answer your question in his own time. I'd be interested in his thoughts as well. 

Later, 

K


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 17 Aug 2012 01:05 PM 
Yikes, Gary. ...

i suppose i should have looked for the 'tongue-in-cheek" icon, too, because i didn't mean to convey such a negative attitude, but one of slight exasperation. i also should have considered leaving in my opening line of "i don't want to start a scale vs scale discussion, but..."

just to be fair, though, i notice you did leave out one...

1:32 on 45mm track = 56.693", a difference of 0.193" from prototype

cheers...gary


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Model Trains are Fun. 

Large Scale is Nebulous... 

neb·u·lous [neb-yuh-luhs] 

adjective; 

hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit. [To this I add; a nebulous scale model of prototypical trains that all happen to run on G Gauge, 45 mm track but fits no scale exactly.] 

Plus, I think Hendri has disappeared. Either he got his answer or we all scared him off.... 

Scott


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 17 Aug 2012 03:43 PM 
just to be fair, though, i notice you did leave out one...

1:32 on 45mm track = 56.693", a difference of 0.193" from prototype

cheers...gary



You must be kidding me







1/10 of a mm is even within the tolerance of the gauge I track (That's what the .193" would translate to if corrected in the scale track). And one wants to really compare this to >5mm (>11%) 
tolerance to on the 1:29 syndrom?

As I stated, I don't care what people run as long as they are happy. But a square is a square, a circle is a circle, and scale is scale. If you are looking for scale than standard guage is better served in 1:32 than in 1:29. 

And 1:20.3 is more scale correct then 1:29, so is 1:22.5. At least one needs to ackknowledge that a 1:29 standard gauge locomotive looks out of scale with a 1:20.3 locomotive.

I had many discussions with HO and O scalers(and those guys are standard guage guys) that proclaim the reason why they don't upgrade to G-scale is the lack of to scale products. For what ever that is worth.

And you can run that in the garden (1:32) as you can 1:29.

All scales always divided between toy players, and modelers. (Not juding one from the other) However, we have the obligation to show the correct differentiation between the two.


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

What kills me are these disscussions about scale vs correctness...GUYS!!!!

THEY ARE TOYS!!!!! Get over it! WHO CARES!!!! Anyone who does is REDICULOUS! What I care about more is them running on my layout!

When you look at the trains from an upright position looking DOWN to the ground...does it really matter? **** NO!


Forget all this BS and have fun running the damn toys! Even the self proclaimed "Museum Quality" Accucraft with the shitty flanges, oh yea I mean...."SCALE" flanges, they are just OVER priced TOY TRAINS! AND PROBLEMATIC ON MOST PEOPLES LAYOUTS AT BEST!

Enough with the scale vs lifelike.....unless they are full sized, and I don't mean live steam ride on, they are all just plain and simple TOY TRAINS!!!!

Have fun....leave the complaining and arguing to the women of the world!

(sorry this OLD BS must have just hit me wrong this AM)

LIVE from Colorado


Bubba


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeeze guys, Kevin, you should not allow yourself to be baited, you are a moderator... and Axel, shame on you for being negative about "rubber scale" and not mentioning the biggest offender LGB!! "with some artistic freedoms?" HAH!

Their F7 is THREE different scales if you consider the 3 dimensions.


The op asked about 1:29... we ask him to narrow it a bit and you guys go off on a scale discussion?

Wow, what a way to mess up a thread. 

Greg


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Madstang on 19 Aug 2012 07:08 AM 
What kills me are these disscussions about scale vs correctness...GUYS!!!!

THEY ARE TOYS!!!!! Get over it! WHO CARES!!!! Anyone who does is REDICULOUS! ...


Bubba

when i look at the well established O gauge and subsequent definitions of O scale i enjoy, and frankly take part in, both the groups who merely want to reinvent or preserve the entertainment aspect (tinplate) as well as those who look to push the realism envelope. both have a place in the hobby and i certainly wouldn't refer to most higher end (as in detail, not cost) models as "...TOYS !".

i feel a lot of the frustration on the part of #1 scale modelers, mostly in the live steam community, comes from the split in the US standard gauge scales (1:32 & 1:29).

with #1 gauge, the 1:32 scale argument of "more correct" is hard to debate. to me it's amazing that a gauge defined in the 1880's is accurate to within 0.35% for US standard gauge PLUS such has a nice round number like 3/8" scale (twice 3/16" scale, S gauge) to have to deal with.

the only 1:29 scale argument i have heard is that after being used to the first LGB and narrow gauge (1:20.3) models, 1:32 scale in the same settings just looked too small. the only live steamer i've seen in this scale, the Aristo Mikado, probably does fit into a toy category in the sense that it is a very generic 2-8-2 model that likely does a good job of simulating the action of a prototype live steam locomotive. i've got to imagine the 1:29 scale itself was derived from #2 gauge (50mm) in which it would be very accurate (~1.0% error).

but back to the frustration part, i have no doubt many live steamers would love to see even semi-generic passenger consists behind their locomotives (eg: Daylight, Empire Builder, Broadway Limited, Century, etc), but in 1:32 scale, these cars either do not exist or are huge bucks for limited runs or custom work. USA Trains makes a rather nice looking Daylight set, but 1:29 cars behind 1:32 locomotives just doesn't look right; not when you're trying your best to maintain a scale appearance. with large freight locomotives like the Accucraft Big Boy and Aster Challenger, i've recently seen that the inventory of available 1:32 freight cars (eg Accucraft reefer series) is severely limited, yet i can buy 1:29 scale freight OTS any day.

of course, even 1:32 models aren't 100% accurate. anyone who runs live steam is aware that concessions have to be made not only due to scaling size/volume, but for operation. if you open the smokebox door on one of these models, there are not dozens of flues and a scale pressure gauge would take a jeweler's loupe to read, but general accuracy to detail (and you have to admit, gauge is a rather large detail) when the goal is to model a particular prototype, should certainly be a sought-after goal.

so if you really don't care, an attitude i have no problem with, just please try to see the point of view of modelers who do?
cheers...gary


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

All scales always divided between toy players, and modelers. (Not juding one from the other) However, we have the obligation to show the correct differentiation between the two. 
"Correct" implies that the alternative is "wrong," though--that it's a black-and-white relationship. You can illustrate that from a purely mathematical standpoint 1:32 is more accurate for modeling US standard gauge than 1:29, but that's as far as you can go with that illustration. There are too many other factors that go into any distinction between--to use your words--"toy players" and "modelers." That distinction can only be drawn on philosophical lines, which are hardly black-and-white at all. 

I would argue that in model railroading, the actual gauge of the track is not really a high priority. If the overwhelming majority of modelers cared that O scale was 3.5" too wide, then that would have been "fixed" way back in the 30s when my grandfather was narrowing the gauge of his O-scale trains to what would today be Proto:48 standards (which is still very much a minority pursuit within O scale) Look at the popularity of On30, and the literal explosion of narrow gauge modelers that's brought to the fold. How many prototype 30" gauge railroads are there in the US, if not the world? Lots of new blood and fantastic modeling, though, and even the "old guard" On3ers are widening the gauge on the models which lend themselves to that. If 1:29 modelers cared that their track was 5" too narrow, there would be accurately-gauged tie strips and replacement trucks available. But Bubba sums up the typical modeler's mindset very clearly, "What I care about more is them running on my layout!" Regardless of our modeling philosophy, that's the bottom line. We want our trains to run outside. 

There's always going to be the contingent in the hobby that wants the utmost accuracy in their modeling. I model 1:20.3 because I model a 3' gauge prototype, and I can now get commercial models scaled accurately for that gauge. That didn't exist when I first started out. But if there wasn't widespread commercial support for that, I'd be just as happy continuing to model a 3' gauge prototype in 1:22.5, even though the track gauge is "wrong." I still do on my dad's railroad (the Woodland Railway). His line is every bit as realistic (far more so) and based on prototype practice as mine. But while it's based on 3' narrow gauge, the rails don't quite scale out to that because he does 1:22.5. Think anyone who's visited my dad's railroad walks way thinking "yeah, but those rails being 3.5" too far apart really ruined the whole thing for me?" It's the overall presentation that leaves the impression. The actual gauge of the track gets easily lost when everything else is cohesive to a common scale. 

Later, 

K


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

The same old scale to gauge 1 track issue will be ever present with large model trains. People compensate for this and it's not a fatal flaw. If it looks right...it's good enuf. Is it perfect. No. But 99% of your guests have no comprehension of this issue or the majority of other things that may bug you or your rivet counting friends so...don't sweat it I say. 
Enough has been said here and countless other posts on the subject. 

I think the misstep here was the OP was probably someone thinking of dipping their toe into large scale, had an idea that 1:29 might be the way to go and unfortunately made an inexperienced mistake posting the identical question in several posts to the Beginner's Forum. Then, i think Kevin thought to alleviate this by combining his original question in one spot and somehow it ended up in Product Review and maybe spiralled out of control there. 

I'm not going to second guess 'Hendri's' original question but probably it should have stayed in Beginner's Forum and a suitable answer might have simply been. Large scale trains are fun. There's plenty of options in 1:29, they are durable in outdoor conditions and last a long, long time, welcome to MLS and go for it! Other posts in this thread gave him that response so I hope he feels encouraged to join us modelling large scale toy trains that have the added really cool feature of being run outdoors in our yards to the enjoyment of our families and friends.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 Aug 2012 09:55 AM 
Jeeze guys, Kevin, you should not allow yourself to be baited, you are a moderator... and Axel, shame on you for being negative about "rubber scale" and not mentioning the biggest offender LGB!! "with some artistic freedoms?" HAH!

Their F7 is THREE different scales if you consider the 3 dimensions.


The op asked about 1:29... we ask him to narrow it a bit and you guys go off on a scale discussion?

Wow, what a way to mess up a thread. 

Greg 
Hello Greg:

Reading a whole thread in its entirety is an artform







- Otherwise you would have read:

"USA Trains, Aristocraft, LGB standard gauge products, and Piko are all rubber scale and in one direction 1:27 in another 1:29 and in another maybe 1:25 (artifical stretching while still fitting on 1:32 scale track width). All rubber scale products are size wise compatible and they were stretched in such a way that they are looking OK also with narrow guage LGB rollingstock." 
FYI- written by me!

Now back to the topic:

I don't care what anybody is running and they have fun with it - however, I care that we give accurate information. Gary, the gauge 1 modeler is just one additional voice of which I have heard hundreds. I also have heard this from HO or O-scale modelers, a market our hobby will never tap into, because they can't get what they want. As an industry we can further decide to ignore them, or we listen to them. It is not like millions of new customers come to our hobby.

Now to Hendri's question. So we don't have a responsibility to tell him what he is gettig in to? So that he can make an educated decission! How can anyone assume that he new all of this information.

And for Madstang's post, if you would have read carefully the entrie thread yopu would for example have found out that I stated that there are toy train hobbyists and modelers of which one already posted.







Thanks God, otherwise you guys thought I make it all up


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The scale/gauge debate has gone on longer than all of us have been in the hobby! It has caused the demise of at least one LS forum and has been a major headache for forum moderators over the years. One LS forum even resorted to posting warning signs because of "discussions" that may occur on topics like this! Hendri hasn't posted since and it _ may_ be because he was scared off. Maybe not but geez...


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

You are missing the point.....they are toys and should be treated as such..if you want to model, go to plastic models and use glue as they are meant as REAL scale models...not toy trains.....this argument about scale prototypical has gone on a ridiculously long time and rears its UGLY head every so often..and what is just as ridiculous is all the men here that get caught up on trying to think that their toy trains are anything OTHER then what they are..TOY TRAINS....
I guess I can see a point, but a very weak one.
When these manufactures made these trains they were intened to be ran, not scrutrinized as to "correctness"...they were made to PLAY WITH!
EACH manufacture makes a line of cars that go BEHIND the engines they produce, the issue that causes all this BS is that WE want to INTERMINGLE the different brands of trains, THAT is where the problem lies, so if you want 1:32, then run MTH..if you want 1:20 run, Accucraft, Bachmann...plain and simple...and there have been posts here showing, with pictures that some cars look fine being smaller then others in a consist, as in REAL LIFE, all the cars are not the same size....using the smaller 1:32 with the 1:29th, not the other way.
Don't mean to be indignant, but as in your explanination defending your point, and or the point of modlers, you are wasting way too much time on a subject that really doesn't matter in the scheme of things..you should be enjoying playing with these trains, instead of pondering something that has always been and always will be they way things are in this toy train world.
I have MANY high quality and cost "Museum Quality" models....but they are still toy trains...don't care how close to real they are...THEY ARE NOT!

People that get wrapped around an axel with details are troubled souls..not with just trains...there comes a point in time when you have to either SCRATCH build what you feel is missing or except things and move on... 

GEEZ! You blew right by the coupler issue!


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Who died and made you the arbiter of how people should pursue the hobby? Who was it who declared that "fun" is what madstang says it is?

If you dont care about scale, fine! Why do you require everyone to feel the same way about it as you?

I have a lot of fun in this hobby, but perhaps its not exactly the same kind of fun you have. That doesn't bother me at all. The original poster asked about scale. I can't see why this thread wild bother him, except for maybe the specter of the fun police, telling him that asking about scale, or talking about scale, is forbidden


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Thank you for giving me that much power of influence....Just stating my opinion, like you do yours....don't like it, don't read it...just as simple as twisting what was posted.

Bubba


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never understood why manufacturers do not make scale models. 
There are at least two markets available out there. Modelers who prefer scale models and modelers that don't care if they can only buy non scale models. 
It is a fact scale modelers will simply not buy non scale models. So, the Large Scale manufacturers who do not make proper scale models are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. They are missing out on a possible quite substantial scale model market. 
Yes! Yes!. In know that MTH were supposed to be 1/32 scale and did not take the market by storm. IMHO that lack of sales had more to do with MTH customers being forced to use the proprietary MTH control/sound system, than the models "looking" too small for 1/29 scale compatibility.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 20 Aug 2012 04:20 PM 
I've never understood why manufacturers do not make scale models. 
There are at least two markets available out there. Modelers who prefer scale models and modelers that don't care if they can only buy non scale models. 
It is a fact scale modelers will simply not buy non scale models. So, the Large Scale manufacturers who do not make proper scale models are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. They are missing out on a possible quite substantial scale model market. 
Yes! Yes!. In know that MTH were supposed to be 1/32 scale and did not take the market by storm. IMHO that lack of sales had more to do with MTH customers being forced to use the proprietary MTH control/sound system, than the models "looking" too small for 1/29 scale compatibility. 
Tony is hitting the point quite well. As a matter of fact LGB (more or less - some inaccuracies) in their RhB or HSB line (narrow gauge) they are scale 1:22.5. Other manufacturers (Kiss and TrainLin45) contribute even more precise 1:22.5 models (so did actually temporarily Brawa). Accucraft and Bachmann do actually a good job for the 1:20.3 market (minor discrepancies here and there). Kiss even contributed to that market as well. In Germany there are great 1:32 manufacturers with great level to detail (unfortunately no American Rollingstock). 
If people claim that 1:32 is to small? Switzerland is full of outdoor modelers in Om (even combined with O) and the UK has a huge outdoor layout by Heathrow with kind of O-scale size (Actually I dont know the precise scale - could something UK specific). 

Bubba, with statements like this you left the trail of expressing an opinion: "You are missing the point.....they are toys and should be treated as such". This is a statement that expresses facts without being one. You may define them as toys, but actually Accucraft Brass engines, Kiss Brass (and recently even plastic engines) are far from being toys. You know what toys are? Thomas the Tank, LGB Toy Train. But the rest are models and shall be treated as such. Toys you buy at Toys are Us and cost a fraction of what our hobby has. So in my book we are looking at fitting scale models or non fitting scale scale models.

And back to Tony's point, if we would have more scale models, we could expect that many O-scaler (or HOlers) would join the hobby. I have head many discussion with that community and they are just disgusted with the offering in standard gauge. (Eh, that's their words not mine). Even in Germany there is a large standard gauge community in the gauge II (1:22.5) which let to 64 mm track and lots of handcrafted models to match the offering of the IIm (narrow gauge 1:22.5) market. People like the intersection of standard and narrow gauge (even more modelling value).


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I certainly understand and appreciate that Europe has a healthy proper scale model Large Scale market. So I guess I should have been a bit more specific, in that I was referring to Large Scale manufacturers of mainline USA prototype.
I firmly believe that if AristoCraft, for example, had more than just semi scale offerings and actually had made accurately proportioned proper scale models, they would have attracted a bigger following and perhaps could be weathering the GFC and its lingering after effects, better than they have been.
Both AristoCraft and USA Trains would have had a much bigger scale and[/b] semi scale market to tap into, especially overseas, if they had chosen the proper scale model market.
Still, I suppose they considered that "never mind the quality, see the (bigger is better) size" marketing, was more their style.


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Madstang on 20 Aug 2012 10:41 AM 
You are missing the point....


..., the issue that causes all this BS is that WE want to INTERMINGLE the different brands of trains, THAT is where the problem lies,...

...there comes a point in time when you have to either SCRATCH build what you feel is missing or except things and move on. 

i sure hope Dora and Fanny aren't turning over in their graves because i use a Lionel 258 to pull my Dorfan cars.

i must have reached that point, ... i have no problem excepting your views.
cheers...gary


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Posted By Hendri on 15 Aug 2012 08:38 AM 


Good day. 


I am new to this and would appreciate it if you can improve my knowledge on the following brand names (LGB, USA, Bachmann, Aristo, AML) of locomotives in the following categories : Weatherproofing, Safety, Audio, Mobility, Power, Cost, Insulation, Maintenance and warranty. If it is possible can you inform me on which of the brand names has performed the best in any of these categories and which one you would personally choose to buy ? I am looking for an electric powered locomotive, scaled 1:29 for my garden.


Thank you for your time and comments.


My point was just that the OP was posted in Beginner's forum in several places and then got placed in Product Review where I don't think it really belonged. Maybe I'm reading too much into the original post but it looks to me more like someone totally new to large scale trains inquiring about basic qualities of 1:29 scale models and it should have stayed in Beginner's Forum. While it may be good information to point out to the OP that 1:29 is not as accurate a scale as some others depending on what the poster hopes to model I don't think that's really the main answers the poster may have been looking for at this time.

Product Review forum to me is more the proper place to discuss things like whether or not a model has flaws like not being true to scale, not having accurate detailing, and reviews on how a particular model runs/pulls, durability of the model, etc.. The points made here on the problems in Large scale with models not being true to scale are all valid ones. Are they toy trains? Well...sure they are. What people mostly want to see 'I believe' is products that aren't 'toylike', glaringly unrealistic, out of scale representations of the 1:1 protoypes, especially when we pony up lots of money for models in large scale compared to other scales then most of us want our "toy trains" to be pretty true representations of the real McCoy. So many models have been produced, and continue to be produced erring to the plus and minus side of accurate in Standard and Narrow Gauge models that it has made large scale a nebulous scale and rightly catches abuse for that. It's not a problem that will go away over night, if it ever goes away at all. I guess it's good that our models are as large as they are. If the same + & - scale models were made in smaller scales like HO and N scale the problems would be even more glaring I think.


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Oh, another point, Tony, I agree, I too have often pondered the reasons why large scale manufacturer's don't produce accurate scale locomotives, etc. [Why?] It really makes no sense unless accurate scale engines just won't work well on the radiuses and grades that most large scale modeler's can feasibly reproduce in their backyards. But is the accurate scale issue the main reason that may be keeping other scale modelers from embracing large scale trains? I don't think that has as much to do with it as their wallets. 

When modelers committed to HO and N scale claim that the lack of accurate scale models are what's keeping them out of large scale i say that's a "Bull---t" excuse. What's keeping them out of large scale is $$$$$$$, Bachmann makes a good lookling 2-8-0 in HO scale for 99 bucks in a dozen roadnames. They offer the same spectrum loco in N scale for 89 bucks [runs and looks great too! I just bought one for my new N Western Maryland scale layout. Western Maryland. How much stuff is even made in large scale in roadnames like the WM? None.]. Aristocraft makes the only 2-8-0 standard gauge locomotive I know of remotely like it for a mere 500 American dollars. 
It's not about inaccuracies in scale. It's about money!!! One piece of good looking rolling stock in N scale costs me 15 dollars. Most locos and diesels are under 100 bucks in N scale. 5 pieces of flex track in G gauge costs more than I recently paid for all the track I needed to build my entire new n scale layout. 

Large scale is exponentially more expensive than HO and N scale model railroading and that's what keeps other people from coming to Large scale trains. Add in the fact that you can get almost anything you dream of in HO locos and rolling stock for less money and...large scale looks less attractive by a country mile. 

Dollars, not accuracy, is what keeps people away from large scale. Like a Ferrari or Lamborghini, a fishing boat, or a private plane, you just have to want/need it. Garden trains are that kind of addiction. If you get it, you get it and need it. You can't sell it to other people no matter how good a salesman you are. You can do it on the cheap sure, but I've seen garden layouts in backyards that have more money in the block retaining walls around their layouts than other scale modelers have in their entire layouts.

Scott


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It's not a lack of scale models--we have plenty of them in large scale. When I think on all the product reviews I've done, the lions' share of them are pretty darned accurate for the prototype being modeled. Anyone who says we don't have scale models in large scale hasn't looked in a magazine in at least 15 years. By and large, our manufacturers do a very good job in that department. 

Having said that, our manufacturers also like to have fun, because they're catering to a very broad audience. Look at Aristo's line of shorty freight cars, eggliners, critters, etc., and Bachmann's upcoming "Lil Big Haulers" line. They're by no stretch of the imagination scale models. 

The question is, to what is the average small scaler exposed to when it comes to large scale? For the most part, it's the "toy" end of the spectrum. If they see large scale at their local hobby shop (that's a big "if"), chances are good it's LGB or Bachmann's Big Hauler stuff. Few hobby shops carry USA, Aristo, Accucraft, etc, so the average hobbyist doesn't see them at the store. 

What do they see in the magazines? Nada. Large scale is rarely covered in the small scale magazines. The only one that fairly regularly features large scale models is the Gazette, but those are typically feature articles on scratchbuilt models, not anything showcasing a large scale railroad that uses mostly commercial equipment. (I think my railroad was probably one of the few ever featured that does.) 

If not the hobby shops or magazines, what about the train shows? If you see an operating large scale display at a train show, it's likely to be trains running on the floor on green Astro-turf or similar. In that environment, even an expertly-weathered train takes on something of a cartoonish nature simply because the surroundings are so vibrant. It doesn't matter what the train looks like, when you see it on the floor, and compare it to watching the small scalers' modular railroads with their pristine scenery, it just pushes the "toy" aspect of large scale even further. 

And goodness knows the NMRA isn't really gonna push large scale. 

So, it's no surprise that the fact that we have a very good selection of scale models is perhaps one of the best-kept secrets of large scale. The avenues just don't exist to promote it on a widespread basis. It's going to take a concerted effort on our parts to preach the gospel to the heathen if we're going to change that. The manufacturers are doing all they can to give us the models we want. All we gotta do is spread the word. 

Later, 

K


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

'Eggliners, Critters and Lil' Big haulers?' 

C'mon Kevin. That stuff is junk and you know it. Pieced together from their other junk. You don't have any of those running around your layout unless somebody gave them to you. 

"The question is, to what is the average small scaler exposed to when it comes to large scale? For the most part, it's the "toy" end of the spectrum. If they see large scale at their local hobby shop (that's a big "if"), chances are good it's LGB or Bachmann's Big Hauler stuff. Few hobby shops carry USA, Aristo, Accucraft, etc, so the average hobbyist doesn't see them at the store. "\ 

The average small scaler doesn't see large scale stuff in the two main model RR magazines that's true but he uses his brain and looks engines and rolling stock up on the internet and discovers Large scale stuff costs a King's ransom compared to what he is currently modeling, and has limited roadnames and engines offered compared to HO and ignores it. The track prices alone send them running to the hills.\ 

I'd be very interested in seeing where new people come into this hobby come from if you could track the demographics. I wonder if many of them never modeled in smaller scales. 


Scott


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure cost is a big factor. It would not cost any more for the makers to make their mainline models to scale and by doing so would expand the overall market. 

A quite high disposable income is required for even a modest outdoor layout. I know of many Gauge # 1 modelers, mostly live steam of course, who could be convinced to dip into the bikkie tin if only they had a variety of proper scale 1:32 models available. Gauge one modelers are often, high end, collectors who would willingly spend the $$$$$$ if diesels were produced in the proper scale for 45 mm gauge track. They would probably not buy steam outline for the obvious reasons, but diesels are another story. They can justify them being electric as often they are asked at very sort notice to produce an operating display for visitors. 

Narrow gauger's are already doing it. Many narrow gauge live steamers already have battery powered diesels even though there are very few available for 45 mm gauge representing 3' Gauge in real life. The British 16 mm scale market has dozens of diesels available and I know of many 16 mm scale dismals running on what are ostensibly live steam layouts. 

It is about time the 1:29 makers bit the bullet, admit they screwed up going with 1:29 and get on with resurrecting our hobby. We need proper 1:32 scale models. If they are not forthcoming the mainline side of the hobby surely will die. Sooner rather than later. 

You don't have to have exact scale details or wheel treads and flanges, as long as the overall proportions are correct. The details and wheels could be to a coarse standard. It would not take after market makers very long to make optional finer scale add on parts.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Tony - can you imagine, we are pulling on the same side of the rope









Little Big Haulers, Toy Train, Thomas the Tank, Eggliners, serve as attempts to attract the younger generation into the hobby, whom we wouldn't give a $800 engine to play with (at least not myself). And this is very good.

Price, you know if we would produce 5,000 or 10,000 pieces of a model the price could be at least half of what most engines cost today. Our G-scale hobby suffers from the size of the market. Manufacturer's new mold cost is a bout $250K







, so if you have 1,000 which is not often anymore that you sell 1,000 of one particular car or engine, the this is still $250 per car just for the distributed mold cost. At 10,000 units this would be $25 for unit, what a difference. So had for an engine a good motor and assembly cost and multiply by 2.4 and you get MSRP. So $350 x 2.4 = $840. Oooops. So Tony's and my point is if we can get another 1,000 units out of a mold we would be able to drop the price by almost $300.









In today's market manufacturers look at 200 unit runs, there is not much room for new development. The infliction point for our market is when 3-D printing has reached a cost/precision threshold, that you can cost effectively 3-D print short runs. Short runs in Brass have become too expensive, and we don't really have currently the volume for injection molding.


----------



## ton staton (Aug 19, 2012)

Just read this post and I agree that there is very little in "large" scale for the modeler, just where dose one go to find structure kits along the lines of FSM and such? Lord knows that we would have to take out a bank loan to purchase one, Tom York has several Large Scale buildings he is trying to promote. Other than that I have not seen anything. I'm in the process of taking down a 99% scratch built On3 layout that has be published in NGG and will appear in MR soon. I've also had my indoor large scale diorama published in NGG. I will post photos soon on this site, my next project is to build a INDOOR Large scale layout. Tom Staton Pres., CEO & mostly janitor...Narragansett RR On3 & Gn15


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

discovers Large scale stuff costs a King's ransom compared to what he is currently modeling, 
Not really. Long gone are the days of Athearn $25 diesels and $4 box cars. Yeah, they can still be found, but when you look at prices in today's ads, you're seeing HO scale box cars for $25 - $50, and locos starting at $150. The "sticker shock" comes from the typical small scale railroader thinking anything less than 30 diesels and 150 freight cars on his roster is completely unacceptable. What they don't realize is that in large scale, it's highly impractical to have that kind of collection. It just takes up far too much space. So for what amounts to the same financial investment, they can have a very satisfying and manageable roster of equipment. But unless they _see_ someone operating with that, they don't know what's "normal." I run my railroad with 15 freight cars. Any more, and I'm tripping over them when I run. In my HO days, I easily had 100 or more. Large scale is an entirely different mindset from small scale on many fronts. (And shockingly similar on many others.) 

It is about time the 1:29 makers bit the bullet, admit they screwed up going with 1:29 and get on with resurrecting our hobby. We need proper 1:32 scale models. 
Sorry, but there's no way I can agree with you. We _have_ "proper 1:32 scale models." They don't sell nearly as well as 1:29. Look at Accucraft as a prime example. They offer both 1:32 and 1:29. Compare the array of products. Yes, they have a much broader selection of 1:32 locomotives than they do in 1:29, but they're almost exclusively high-dollar live steam locos, and live steam is probably the one segment of the hobby where 1:32 has anything that can be remotely described as a supportive community. In terms of rolling stock, they offer a box, reefer, and three (brass) cabooses. That's it. Their 1:29 line consists of significantly less expensive locomotives and a wider selection of rolling stock designed for a much wider audience--including modern rolling stock; a product line designed to go toe-to-toe (or hand-in-hand) with USA and Aristo. Both Accucraft and MTH make very good 1:32 products. They're well detailed and cover a fairly broad spectrum of tastes. There's manufacturer support for the products if the public wants them. But the majority doesn't, or we'd see far more product development in that arena. MTH has been so quiet over the past 5 years in 1:32 people often wonder if they're even still making it. The consumer has demonstrated time and time again that 1:29 is "where it's at" for modeling US standard gauge. The manufacturers have responded by promoting that segment of their product lines. 

Personally, I think it's time _we_ bit the bullet and admitted that 1:29 ain't goin' away. If you want 1:32, there's product available. Buy it and be happy. Buy lots of it and maybe that segment of the hobby will grow. It's not likely going to replace 1:29 anytime soon, if ever. The mainline side of the hobby will not wither and die because the scale is "wrong" for the gauge. It hasn't in any of the other scales where such discrepancy exists. As has been stated time and time again in this thread, _people just don't care_ about such things. They want a quality product that captures the look of the prototype, runs well, and looks great. The rest is gravy. 

@ Tom, welcome to MLS. You hit the nail on the head in terms of structures. There are no FSM or similar structure kits _because_ you'd have to take out a home loan just to buy it. There are, however, plenty of plans available, and detail parts to help in the process. Check out Garden Texture and Ozark Miniatures--two off the top of my head. Smith Pond Junction and Kamloops Station also provide an array of kits. Because our hobby is so segmented in terms of particular scale, those folks who do choose and stick to one scale will want buildings to that particular scale--and they're the modelers who would gravitate towards the craftsman-style FSM kits. The folks in this hobby who tend to fudge a bit on building scale generally aren't craftsman kit kinds of people. Most building manufacturers offer plans, and you can then tailor the plans from there to fit your scale and/or space available, since that's also quite often an important consideration. A moderate-sized train station can easily take up 3' or more of space. 

Later, 

K


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

All good points Kevin. I agree 

I was thinking more the price difference between my N scale and large scale stuff. When I think about the $ difference between large scale and quality HO products the difference is much less. Comparing N to Large Scale is hard to do too. It's almost entirely different hobbies. You usually go into N because you have limited space and also so you can model long trains and big radius curves they're just two different sports. 
I still suspect the cost and the room needed to model large scale keeps more people from making the plunge and keeping the scale from growing more and not the fact that 1:29 has been embraced by buyers and manufacturers. Making starter sets, whimisical toy models and offering a few lower cost model engines as many manufacturers do I think is key to enticing new modelers but I suspect when they start figuring up how much track and construction of a backyard layout will cost them the starter sets end up in the attic but I doubt many of them said "You know, if it was just in 1:32 instead of 1:29 I would take the plunge." 

Scott


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Posted By SRW on 21 Aug 2012 04:00 AM 

I'd be very interested in seeing where new people come into this hobby come from if you could track the demographics. I wonder if many of them never modeled in smaller scales. 


Scott 

I bought my first large scale, LGB, recently. I've used Marklin in HO for close to a decade. Yes, the prices are steep, particularly in light of the LGB lacking the level of detail of Marklin. That said, I knew going in that the level of fine detail wasn't as good; I bought it hoping that operationally it will be superior. I'm coming from a costly HO brand, but LGB is still a lot less than Marklin's I gauge - which is also pretty much limited to custom orders and waiting. I wanted the larger size 1:22.5, rather than 1:32 also. 
With the cost, though, I also don't intend to have the same quantity of equipment. My Marklin trains, mostly in pre-WWII prototype, are 2 to 6 feet long, with my post-war prototypes 6 to 12 feet. LGB trains of similar length are double the cost for the same features in the locomotives (sound, digital control, which are largely standard in Marklin and have to be added to many of the LGB.) Assuming I end up with trains of twice the length (meaning half the number of pieces), and don't have to build a table or scenery, I figure I'll end up with the same overall expenditure.

I hope to have less maintenace needs in G, and be able to have more than just trains on a table - I never found the time needed for scenery and other detail in my HO railway.


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys: 

From Kevin: 

It's not likely going to replace 1:29 anytime soon, if ever. The mainline side of the hobby will not wither and die because the scale is "wrong" for the gauge. It hasn't in any of the other scales where such discrepancy exists. As has been stated time and time again in this thread, people just don't care about such things. They want a quality product that captures the look of the prototype, runs well, and looks great. The rest is gravy. 

Absolutely correct. 

Bubba also is right on the ball. These trains are all toys. 

1:29 and 1:32 are both "scale models" , only the track gauge is wrong with 1:29. 
1:32 is the correct track gauge, but the rail height necessary for outdoor use is far oversized. So what is a 1:32 modellor then to do? 

If the model has an electric motor in it or if it powered by live steam then the model is a toy as the model is intended to be played with. 

If the model has no means of self propulsion then the model is a model with a given level of detail and built to a given scale. 

I believe folks insist that their models are models and not toys to comfort themselves that they are not playing with trains. 

Folks, we are all playing with trains regardless of scale or level of detail no differently than we did at three years old with our first toy train. 

Only our age has increased! 

The point of the hobby is to relax and destress. 

So to all the Aster 1:32 folks, please feel free to play with your toys in the same manner as the 1:29 folks. 

My only major regret with large scale is the extinction of 1:24 scale as the minimum track radius and loco size lends itself so well to indoor layouts. 


Norman


----------



## Conrail Mark (Feb 18, 2012)

Came across this old thread and had to comment! I've really enjoyed reading the almost vitriolic comments that a number of rivet counters have articulated in this thread, and the utter sense that Kevin (as usual) has responded with. I have modelled 1:29 standard gauge for 10 years now and the scale/ gauge debate has not concerned me one bit. Why? Is it because I dreamt of 'big' trains as a kid, or that as a Brit I am used to OO and UK N gauge which are similarly off-kilter, or because when I started I had never even seen a real US train or even understood that 1:29 was 'wrong'? Was it because the products of Messrs Polk, Ro and Co are 'toys' that cannot be improved as my bashing and painting skills improved? Or is it because I have been able, over the last decade, to got to a point where I can build my own locos, rolling stock, line side equipment and buildings if I choose? 

No! Its none of these things; its because on a sunny evening in the English countryside I can lie on the ground next to my railroad and railfan what to me is a decent approximation of a little bit of a US Northeast railroad in the late eighties - for a moment I am not in my garden looking at 'toy trains' (albeit pretty good looking and expensive 'toys') - I am at Altoona or Selkirk or Schenectady watching a manifest freight powering its way to wherever; I am the engineer in charge of a hotshot intermodal or a humble 'local', I am the boss of my own sub-division on a railroad long gone. In the depths of an English winter I am reading books and magazines on the subject in order to make my empire look more realistic; I am planning trips to the US where my long-suffering Wife will sit patiently whilst I photograph contemporary railroads and, as previously alluded to, I am doing my best to create representations of rolling stock that the main manufacturers have not, or will not make. What I am NOT doing is thinking about work, the bills, the kids, the chores I must get around to at some point, or any of the other blah that goes with being a bloke in his mid-forties. 

That 4'' error of scale, or any other compromise, never enters my thoughts as I strive to make my miniature world resemble my dreams! 

Oh, and to anyone interested in Large Scale, perhaps you could do what I did 10 years ago - take the plunge by purchasing a lovely bright blue GP9, matching boxcar and a few feet of track and go from there - I guarantee that the journey you commence will be enlightening, instructive, creative and absorbing.....despite the rivet counters!


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 19 Aug 2012 06:54 AM 

If you are looking for scale than standard guage is better served in 1:32 than in 1:29. 



That depends on how you define "scale" and "better served"!  
(I consider both 1/32 and 1/29 trains to be scale models, so im not concerned about the word "scale" in this instance)

If by "better served" you mean "I only care about the track gauge and nothing else" then you would be right..
But if by "better served" you mean "Overall selection of models; amount of and variation of locomotives and rolling stock for American Standard Gauge Prototypes"
then standard gauge is better served in 1/29 than in 1/32.

Scot


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

ditto!


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I strongly agree with the previous three posts. Back about 1980 I started buying LGB, I liked the size and it looked great. For European narrow gauge it was correct. As Colorado NG became available I bought that. Later LGB brought out models based upon American SG cars. They looked nice so I got some. Over the years, Delton, USAt, Aristo, Bachmann, and Accucraft came came on the market with neat cars and engines and I added to my roster. In my world there was not much available in 1:32. I just didn't need or want another "scale". I am happy with 1:20.3, 1:22.5/24, 1:29. There are very nice locomotives and cars available in 1:32, but I'm not going there, I have enough other "G" scales. There is nothing right or wrong about any of the products out there. We all have to decide for ourseves what we like and fits our needs. Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm confused Chuck.... 

The last 3? 

the 3rd from the last basically says: I like it all and I'm not worried about scale that much.... 

the 2nd from the last addresses Axle's comment in not only a diplomatic way, but states that if you mean "better served" means more available, then there's more available in 1:29 

the 1st from the last is mine, where i "ditto" what Scot says, but to be specific, I think there's more to be had (at reasonable cost) in 1:29.... of course different people will have different definitions of resonable ha ha! 

So I fail to not only see what there is to strongly disagree with, but not all the posts have the same statement... but your post says to me like the 3rd from the last, I like it all and I'm not worried about scale that much... 

Maybe I've got my "I'm stupid" postit on my forehead again, but it seems you are in agreement with at least one of the posts... 

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I feel the only prototypical trains are the 1 to 1 scale. Anything else is a toy to me, but others are free to use there models as they wish. 
No need to argue about this as we all have a right to our own opinions and the right to use our trains as we see fit, but we do not have the right to demand others to be using their trains our way.


----------

