# Accucraft NG16 on Ebay



## scubaroo (Mar 19, 2009)

Anybody looking for an Accucraft NG16 in Edison Green.
There is one on e-bay right now in the live steam section.
"new in Box"
Starting Bid - $3500.00.

Not mine.
I just thought I would let you all know.

Craig

Here is the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Accucraft-U...263?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234c2caf67


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Oooow, that one. Swimming pool color. Not my favorite flavor. 
Thanks for the link.

Andrew


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The same guy has other interesting stuff - like a set of Hartford freight kits:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Hartford-...874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234bdb49f2

And just looking popped up another vendor with a Stirling Single and Schools (factory built!)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Live-Steam-...191?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f7d98cd7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Live-Steam-...969?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f7d98bf9


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Stirling and Schools way overpriced, especially the Schools. As to the Hartford kits he would be better off listing each individually. I would take the DSP&P flat for $50.
Noel


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Noel,
You obviously failed to take into account the fact that the Schools is "*rare*". After all, Aster only built 2550 of them!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Noel,

The Sterling is probably about right given the legitimate rarity of that one. One just went for 6k but that one was "unfired" complete example....I guess some folks like them that way.

The schools must have a solid gold coin or two in the tender...I think I saw one go for about 1300 not long ago...perhaps he's hoping to net the guy who paid 6K for the Sterling....

Oh yeah, the Accucraft Garratt...ugly as the color is..will likely go higher given the scarcity of that model.

Sam


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Aster only built 2550 of them!


Ah - but they didn't build many of them. We (well, not me personally, but the rest of the owners,) had to make them.


> The schools must have a solid gold coin or two in the tender.


I got the impression he thought a 'factory built' version was rare?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Noel,
> 
> Oh yeah, the Accucraft Garratt...ugly as the color is..will likely go higher given the scarcity of that model.
> 
> Sam


It has serial number, #110, so it's not of the most valued. The most valued are those without a serial number - the 3rd of 3 lots built. Third has all the fixes/redesigns that evolved from the first two lots.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> It has serial number, #110, so it's not of the most valued. The most valued are those without a serial number - the 3rd of 3 lots built. Third has all the fixes/redesigns that evolved from the first two lots.


Chris, This is a disputable claim. Not all of the new features and redesign on the subsequent runs of the NGG16 can be classified as improvements. They are design changes - that's all. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Chris, This is a disputable claim. Not all of the new features and redesign on the subsequent runs of the NGG16 can be classified as improvements. They are design changes - that's all. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> It has serial number, #110, so it's not of the most valued. The most valued are those without a serial number - the 3rd of 3 lots built. Third has all the fixes/redesigns that evolved from the first two lots.


Mine is from the third batch and has a serial number...!

Easiest way to spot a Batch 3 loco is from the presence of strengthening strips at the top of the cab doorways.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

TonyW said:


> Mine is from the third batch and has a serial number...!
> 
> Easiest way to spot a Batch 3 loco is from the presence of strengthening strips at the top of the cab doorways.


Interesting. Ian Pearce related the background behind lot 3 at DH at that time of the Garratts (2006/7 ?) He explained lot 3 changes were significant versus lots 1 & 2.. He felt buyers needed a way to quickly and easily distinguish lot 3. If lot 3 were numbered in sequence to lots 1 & 2 it would cause considerable debate, explanation problems, etc., then and as time went by. Starting serial numbers over would be the same or worse. He felt the simplest lot 3 would simply not have serial numbers. 

My Garratt saga, it being a favorite,. I originally bought 2 from lots 1 & 2, each with serial numbers. Learning of the changes I sold my two and bought 2 lot 3s at that time. A few years later I bought a 3rd lot 3. None of my 3 3's have serial numbers. That's as much as I know.

You are right, one of the changes was a cab strap. Perhaps you were lucky to get a lot 3 with a serial number.  What serial number is yours?


PS; The Garratt on eBay, listed $3,500, sold for $5,101.68.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Wouldn't it be simple enough for Accucraft to add the lot number then '#' prefixed to the existing sequential numbers?
Serial numbers serve a purpose in identifying items if they are not tampered with. When missing it adds suspicion.

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Wouldn't it be simple enough for Accucraft to add the lot number then '#' prefixed to the existing sequential numbers?
> Serial numbers serve a purpose in identifying items if they are not tampered with. When missing it adds suspicion.
> 
> Andrew


Wouldn't adding some mark now be a little logistically difficult?

A serial number works for lots of purposes on a refrigerator or a cell phone. Steamers are more, "number y in a limited edition of xxx," like a work of art. Yeah, that what's real here; steamers are works of art. Who puts serial numbers on Art?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Scott said:


> Interesting. Ian Pearce related the background behind lot 3 at DH at that time of the Garratts (2006/7 ?) He explained lot 3 changes were significant versus lots 1 & 2.. He felt buyers needed a way to quickly and easily distinguish lot 3. If lot 3 were numbered in sequence to lots 1 & 2 it would cause considerable debate, explanation problems, etc., then and as time went by. Starting serial numbers over would be the same or worse. He felt the simplest lot 3 would simply not have serial numbers.


He had the option of doing something like I said when the 'art' was manufactured.
Either start the numbers from zero for each lot or continue on from the last lot. A prefix could be there for people to quickly identify which lot it is and the '#' to delimit that from the actual serial number. More logical than doing nothing.

If you can mass produce it, can it be considered as real art? 
If it can, a serial number helps identify it as a limited production.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It always gets me when people get a big marker pen and write on the end of a collectible's box 'RARE' thus lowering it's value. 

I bought an Accucraft locomotive of someone who I won't mention out of courtesy. They had added sound. In doing so the drill went straight through the serial number plate. 

Andrew


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> What serial number is yours?


161. The number is shown under the boiler cradle on the right side of the loco, see picture.

Other changes between batch 1/2 and batch 3 concern the pipe routings, with the batch 3 locos having no superheat to the rear engine. Even still, the tee connection for the rear engine is not ideal (steam for rear engine leaves main supply at 90 degrees while front engine supply is "straight on") and on my "to do" list to change one day.

The biggest change I have done is to replace all of the exhaust steam pipework and to remove the exhaust pipe in the smokebox. Simple tests showed that the loco was being strangled by its own exhaust back pressure and increasing the pipe bore size has reduced water and gas consumption, increased running time and made the loco more responsive and lively.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It's back....or is it a second one from the same seller? This time the listing has a serial number S/N 069
Swimming pool color again! 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151637220731?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

The one that apparently sold recently for $5,101.68
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Accucraft-UK-LTD-MS0072-NG16-Garrett-Millennium-Edison-Green-1-19-NIB-/151601852263?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234c2caf67&nma=true&si=K3rFqjZzOBzSqOs9BCKE1%252FsRyZI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The apparent buyer of the last one did leave feedback so this seems to be a second Edison Green NG16 Garratt for sale unless of course it is a shill bidder. They appear to have bought an Aster Lion off the seller recently and bid on F,G and N scale items. They also started the bidding and bid all other bidders up gradually during the auction period which is what a shill bidder does. Doesn't prove anything but my spider senses are tingling! 

Andrew


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

According to the pictures the first one was s/n 070 so they appear to be two different locos with consecutive numbers.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tony, well spotted. I missed that on the end of the box. I looked for it too. Obviously using the same pictures for both listings.

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> They also started the bidding and bid all other bidders up gradually during the auction period which is what a shill bidder does. Doesn't prove anything but my spider senses are tingling!
> 
> Andrew


Andrew; Conspiracies everywhere.  Have you considered it might be the one step at a time bidding method? 

Or did you want the bidder to just throw in ten grand and see what happens?  I personally wouldn't have that kind of intestinal fortitude, or money.

I tried psychoanalyzing eBay bidding many moons ago soon after eBay started up and it never seemed to get me the winning bid. Maybe you'll get a nice new Garratt.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, I study what is going on to try and determine whether it is a fair auction or not after all a fair market value is what it is all about. Not that often someone has a cupboard full of Accucraft NG16 Garratts although three become available recently in a store all in the same week, unfortunately a week after I asked. There are plenty of shill bidders about so it is no conspiracy but rather the fact in some circumstances. If I want something that is sold frequently from certain well known dealers, I know their shill ID and also know other regular buyers ID therefore know where they draw the line on particular items. I won't say what my methods are, that is my business but I don't bid $1 at a time during the entire auction period, that's for bunnies. All auctions happen in the last minute and you can predict what some people will do. There are also certain things you can determine through careful study but there are as many winning strategies as there are ways of fooling yourself. Happy bidding! 

Andrew


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought the way eBay now identifies bidders before auction close makes it no longer possible to identify exactly who the bidder is...they use things like "A***A", o***1, and 9***t. Are you saying these remain consistent for particular bidders auction to auction and therefore you can know exactly who is bidding? If so that is quite interesting...I'll have to do some testing to see if it follows true.

Used to be that real eBay IDs were used to identify bidders...I regularly saw folks with similar interests bidding on the same things I was...but no more. It has been a year or more since I have seen any way to know who the actual bidders are.

Of course as you say most regular users of eBay now use a sniping service, so identifying bidders is a moot point as all the action takes place in the final minutes. 

For an item to go up to an astronomical price, all it takes is two uneducated bidders, each using a sniping service, to enter a maximum price way above the current market price. One will win in the final seconds, but at an elevated price as their sniping services will bid up the auction. I sell a lot on eBay and see it all the time...the winning bidder is a new participant in the auction in the final seconds of the auction.

eBay has some pretty sophisticated tools they use to uncover shill bidding...I think where it happens it has less end result than many fear. Each to his own opinion, but that has been my experience as a 17+ year eBay participant.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

What's the difference between entering a Maximum Bid when entering a bid via the eBay and a Sniper? The Sniper does the same thing. Both automatically increment your bid until either your max is reached and someone bids higher, biding stops as everyone else stops bidding or the auction time expires. 

A bidder placing multiple bids one after another might just be a timid or new to eBay buyer. If there are no intervening bids it means the auto increment function is at work.

I haven't bought anything via auction since about 1999 and before that a few years collecting rare LGB sitting there with my finger on the return key until 15-20 second before the close time. For a friend who collects them I bought two Jaguars that way for him. 

I see a Sniper website as a way for eBay or the Sniper App vendor to get eyeballs and generate ad revenue for themselves. When in fact you can do the same thing via eBay's regular bidding process.

What am I missing about Snipers? Never used one.

Interesting word Sniper - it's one more letter than Snipe, if you've ever gone Snipe hunting. Is there a clue in there somewhere?

Having recently bought a NIB Black Garratt from batch three I can say with authority, the eBay one that sold was over priced by a few hundred.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

After reading all this about 'snippers', fixed bidding and 'shills, makes me very happy that I don't even look at Ebay and wouldn't even attempt to bid on anything there. Sounds even more of a gamble than Atlantic City or Las Vegas, not to mention that the item you are putting your money down on isn't even as described. NO THANK YOU. LG
PS: one thing I did notice that some one gave the 'address' on Ebay was selling something from the western side of the country listed his ZIP Code as 08091, which is in S Jersey.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick Jr said:


> PS: one thing I did notice that some one gave the 'address' on Ebay was selling something from the western side of the country listed his ZIP Code as 08091, which is in S Jersey.


Interesting, if one digit is transposed, 80910, the location moves West to Colorado Springs, CO.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

While it's Edison Green that makes a good candidate for painting it *RED*. ACR Garratt 141 










I really like RED and it's so much nicer than the WHR red. Trouble is matching the exact red, tearing down the entire locomotive and putting it back together. It would have to be done by someone who has worked on them already. I think that could only be found in the UK.










If you noticed the different shaped stack it's because it has a Lempor exhaust.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Clifford, the other bidders actual username is abstracted as you say with *** but their abstracted name can be consistent over many weeks however I have noticed with my own name when not logged in that it can be abstracted differently sometimes. 

Chris, there is a difference. It may not be beneficial to bid in the last few seconds but it is generally not beneficial to let other bidders be aware of your keen interest ahead of time in an auction with a fixed time closure. You would only do it if you had no idea of the item's value and were 'feeling your way' but anyone in the market should already have a good idea of what that value is. Some people only bid in dreamland. Why play there unless teasing along with crumbs?

Nick, I have bought many things from eBay and most times there are no problems. At times packaging is barely adequate to cross the road, other times the seller want's to exploit shipping thinking they can whack on an extra $20 when they invoice you. I think model trains area is not too bad but a friend involved in Gemstones and Jewelry consistently got scammers when buying or selling.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris, an NGG16 would be nice to go with the NG15 I recently bought below but the exchange rate form AU to US is a killer at the moment and the seller does not ship internationally so i'm not in the league of buyers, besides the restoration sponsoring company color of 'Edison Green' is not my cup of tea ol boy. 
The bright red one you posted to my eye really lacks without the black backing and line work. I like the other colors that Accucraft produced. The black one is nice but considering I will probably end up with a black Australian G42 Garratt when produced and also have an electric LGB/Aster NGG13 in maroon red, a different color Garratt would be nice.
Puffing Billy in Australia bought a second NGG16 a few years back to eventually restore (restoration will probably exceed $2.5 million so it may be some time before this can happen). Parts that were also bought will help to first restore the first one they have. Not sure what color it will be once done but I will see it regularly.
http://puffingbilly.com.au/media/uploads/pdf/GTR_2014_Donations_Proceeds.pdf
http://www.australiansteam.com/BP7428.htm





































Andrew


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> It would have to be done by someone who has worked on them already. I think that could only be found in the UK.


Is it really the case that there is nobody in the US that would attempt this? This explains why I (living in the UK) get jobs from the US quite frequently, particularly painting and lining. I've even conquered the "temporary import for repair" (meaning no duty is payable) bureaucracy!


Garratt said:


> ... besides the restoration sponsoring company color of 'Edison Green' is not my cup of tea ol boy.


It was not to Edison's liking either as an incorrect paint code was specified at some point during the repaint of full-size 138. It was soon repainted in the correct shade, but too late for Accucraft to change...










Garratt said:


> Chris, an NGG16 would be nice to go with the NG15...


Ah yes, like this... I used to drive 138 and 143 at the Welsh Highland Railway and 143 was always my favourite of the two. It was black at the time, so I have a black model complete with oil fuel tank in the rear bunker...


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew;
Accucraft will be making the K1 (WHR; in black, grey) late this year or 1h next year. I doubt it will cost as much as the NGG16. Although the K1 is rather sparse on detail. Could that be your chance for another Garratt?










The trouble with buying the Edison Garratt and having it repainted, if it's not a 3rd batch then it only makes sense to make the fixes, the cab tab and steam lines, even spliting the exhaust piping, are fairly simple. But reworking the piping under the smokebox would be significant. 

The color history of the Garratts at WHR is, shall we say, interesting. The history leads to the question, is it the color paint that makes the locomotive's number or the locomotive under the paint (ignoring the color.) And, if it's what's under the paint, how much of any Garratt has to be the number on the plate?

Example
Garratt News 8/12/09
http://www.isengard.co.uk/News2009.htm
Both power units of No. 87 have been run out and the boiler module (now on ambulance bogies) stripped ready for re-painting as of 8/12/09. Although originally planned to be SAR black livery, the loco will now be turned out in Great Eastern blue, with No.138 soon to appear in maroon and Pete Waterman's No.109, in black. The final livery for No.143, currently black, and No.140, currently red, (if ever rebuilt) are unknown."


My preference is for the paint to be as the Garratt ran on the SAR or ACR. Both ran NGG16 Black. Grey would be nice but that requires buying more and more Edisons and I'm afraid my budget is awaiting the Accucraft K1; I would like both Black and Grey. The lining is WHR's most recent paint scheme. 

Someone has painted a live steam model NGG16 SAR Red Except I think the lettering is the wrong font?









SAR #87 Grey 









WHR #87 Grey









WHR #87 Blue









All together:












*Oddities:*
NGG16 111 Red (Tomato)


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Clifford, the other bidders actual username is abstracted as you say with *** but their abstracted name can be consistent over many weeks however I have noticed with my own name when not logged in that it can be abstracted differently sometimes.
> 
> Chris, there is a difference. It may not be beneficial to bid in the last few seconds but it is generally not beneficial to let other bidders be aware of your keen interest ahead of time in an auction with a fixed time closure. You would only do it if you had no idea of the item's value and were 'feeling your way' but anyone in the market should already have a good idea of what that value is. Some people only bid in dreamland. Why play there unless teasing along with crumbs?
> 
> Andrew


Andrew;
I'm pretty much agree with everything you say. And everyone has their own techniques and winning formulas. Wish I knew what happens when two with the same formula are bidding against one-another. 

One thing about those Snipers. They and eBay both have Maximum Amount you enter. They each increment your bid until hitting your max or the close. Question is, at the last second whose last bid has priority; the Sniper's or eBay's? The answer is eBay's, they're always going to give priority to their own software versus the outside Sniper. That "same time" is a window of time, how much, who sets the parameters? You're better off using eBay's max bid feature. 

It took quite a bit of digging but I finally found confirmation of my suspicion that's how that all worked. There's always somewhere that the tech world reveals all you just have to dig a little.

If you really, really want to always win, find out eBay's signal routing and always send/route your bids through the server closest to eBay's brain. (Wall Streets electronic automated trading secret how they make huge sums of money off the arbitrage of the split second delay between trades. Regulators are trying to craft rules to return the market to level; ok, reduce the angle of tilt.)

It's also interesting, but clear why, the Snipers never mention eBay'e max bid feature/service. While all the time the Snipers make money, lots, getting those eyeballs on the their page ads. People never bother to read the manual. If I remember correctly eBay did not have the max bid feature when it was those early days. 

Interesting story about selling ads space on web pages. Few years back, just after the turn of the century. 15 yo kid sets a goal; $1M off the internet in 1 year. Come up with the idea to sell not certain size ads or space on the web page, he going to sell pixels. Word gets around and his web site becomes a new net meme. He starts selling pixels like crazy; x pixels = x space; x time; x page hits. He sells ever pixel on the page, wall-to-wall, no white space, nothing but ads, big little, and keeps selling, People bought pixel spade just to put their name on the pixel page all kinds of crazy stuff. He got his $1M in just over 12 months. It, the net meme, wore off eventually but he was happy. 


Boy, I need a break, writing way too much.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris, I tried using sniper software a few times but I found if I set the last bid time too close I would frequently miss getting my bid in at all because of lag on the Internet and when my computer goes to sleep it does not work. I tend to manually bid towards the end but not always. I was told some sniper software is no longer supported because of eBay changes. Possibly eBay are trying to make these programs ineffective. Using different strategies depending on the item is the sensible approach. It only takes two bidders that are keen to win an item and all bargains are off. Good for the seller though. I consider other things besides the buying price. Trust in the seller and their shipping methods and how well the item is presented are important too. Listings with no clear images or description and the disclaimer of working condition unknown and not knowing about trains are warning signs. Honest communication and clear understanding are mandatory in any arms length transaction for buyer and seller to both win.

I have a K1 on order being the first ever Garratt built for Tasmania but am perplexed regarding price or when it will be made. I assume a pilot model will first be constructed for testing and evaluation by GRS in the UK who are commissioning them to be built. Until that image is produced it is no where near. I also wonder about the small boiler producing enough steam for the two power units. K1 is a tiny Garratt which I think is one of the reasons the USA could not take the Garratt design seriously when at the time were producing large mallets for articulation.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

K1 shiny and lined looking very slick indeed!
I think it was grey when working in Tasmania.










G42 in Australia. Accucraft pilot model being made in 2016.










The Garratt that never got built.










Andrew


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe K1 was painted grey and lined as seen in the ex-factory photos, but somewhere I heard it was painted black shortly upon arrival to Tasmania and stayed that way until it was repatriated and ended up at the museum in York....when I saw it there in 1981 it was back in ex-factory livery...perhaps someone with the full story will correct me on my details...


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Here are photos of K1 both claimed to be in Zeehan, Tasmania. 
The first photo looks lined possibly grey with a black backing, not sure. Could be when it first arrived.
The second is apparently the official Tasmanian Government Railways photo.



















Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

About the eBay Garratt auctions, I just happen to think. If the description of each of the two auctions says, 

"New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item..."

Then the seller has to have at least 3 Edison Garratts. 2 unopened and one opened that's beauty queen shown in photos. 

Wonder how the seller can claim undamaged if it's never been opened?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Story of WHR K1 

*K1 The World's first Garraatt*
http://www.whrsoc.org.uk/WHRProject/k1.htm











*Thread from 16mm NG Yahoo Forum*

[16mmngm] Accucraft K1 Garratt Happening

[email protected] via yahoogroups.com 
4/8/14

to 16mmngm 
1st announcement I've seen for it. 16NGM NGRS 2014 flyer just arrived. Inside back cover bottom, GSR, ANG and Accucraft will be producing live steam K1 Garratt; grey and black, 32 and 45mm gauge. No price or ETA. 
Thank you, Ian. 

Chris Scott

__,_._,___

Dan Quine [email protected] via yahoogroups.com 
4/9/14

to 16mmngm 
Yes, but a rumoured (stress: rumoured) price north of £4000. An expensive bit of kit. Looking forward to seeing the prototype on Saturday.

Dan

__,_._,___

Simon Whenmouth [email protected] via yahoogroups.com 
4/9/14

to 16mmngm 
Hi Dan
Yes we are doing a Garrett which GRS and myself have commissioned but currently we have no idea of price as we are awaiting the quotes from Accucraft. They have had the drawings for a couple of months so we are now awaiting the loco design drawings at this point we should be able to give an idea of pricing.
I will add that orders of the production run are now filling fast.

Yours
Simon
Anything Narrow Gauge

__,_._,___

[email protected] via yahoogroups.com 
4/14/14

to 16mmngm 
We have to produce the GVT tram loco first! The K1 will be for next year at the earliest and until we have sorted the design and CADs out we won't be able to confirm the price.

Graham.


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew:

I've always wondered about those photos, particularly the second one where the K1 looks to be in black with lining.

But as you may know at the time there photos were made there ware several commonly used types of film, the two most important being Panchromatic (which is same as used up until digital photography) and "orthochromatic"....for Ortho film as it was commonly known, colors were recorded strangely sometimes as the film did not convert all colors to gray scale evenly. If we could see the negatives and know what the film was it would be an easy matter to sort things out, but having access to the negatives is rare these days.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> ... one opened that's beauty queen shown in photos.


To be fair, both listings said/say: "Photo of train itself is from Accucraft UK Limited site. We have not unpacked the train." and "First photo is from the Accucraft UK Limited site".


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

K1...

"to 16mmngm 
Yes, but a rumored (stress: rumored) price north of £4000. An expensive bit of kit. Looking forward to seeing the prototype on Saturday."

That is more expensive than two small live steamers. I was expecting maybe £3,000 ~ £3,500

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> K1...
> 
> "to 16mmngm
> Yes, but a rumored (stress: rumored) price north of £4000. An expensive bit of kit. Looking forward to seeing the prototype on Saturday."
> ...


That was a year ago, a long time ago. 4K bps = ~$6k usd (4/6/2015 exchange rate), that's pretty pessimistic . The K1 may be an articulated locomotive, but it's about as plain, lacking in detail, and simple (the 2 bunkers are boxes) as they come and relatively small compared to the NGG16 or any other articulated locomotive. So it's really hard to imagine $6,000. It's definitely not going to come with fancy things like an axle pump. The steam feed to each engine vs superheater feed will be challenging given it's hard to think it will be other than a single flue boiler. What would be terrific is if it came with a ceramic burner; that could possible make solving the steam feed/SH issue easier. (Just thinking out loud. Ok, a little dreaming.)

I think in the $5,000 range (~3,500 bps). After all the NGG16 was I believe ~$4,600., 10 years ago. Metal prices are up substantially as are labor costs in China over those ten years. 

Above I mentioned I talked with Ian Pearse at DH in 2008, (wrt, how to distinguish batch #3 from #1 & #2.) the primary point of my talking with Ian was to lobby for doing a K1. Obviously that was very successful at the time now 8-9 years later they are going to do the K1. All kidding aside, I assumed they could just use the engineering from the NGG16 and roll out a K1. Ian explained that because K1's cylinders were both inboard a model design would be new and without leverage from the NGG16 design. So if you were thinking as I was at the time, a K1 would be incremental versus a complete step function, a new design, there's some perspective.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Confirmed to me today: The models of K1 are £3995 each (GBP3995) including UK 20% tax with delivery due summer 2016, which presumably makes them £3200 if no purchase tax is payable.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

TonyW said:


> Confirmed to me today: The models of K1 are £3995 each (GBP3995) including UK 20% tax with delivery due summer 2016, which presumably makes them £3200 if no purchase tax is payable.


Given they said they could not give a price estimate until design was done looks like maybe the project has taken a good step forward. 

Or is this confidential info for your eyes only and your're about to be shot? I'm sure you would hate to loose you.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

TonyW said:


> Is it really the case that there is nobody in the US that would attempt this? This explains why I (living in the UK) get jobs from the US quite frequently, particularly painting and lining. I've even conquered the "temporary import for repair" (meaning no duty is payable) bureaucracy!
> 
> Ah yes, like this... I used to drive 138 and 143 at the Welsh Highland Railway and 143 was always my favourite of the two. It was black at the time, so I have a black model complete with oil fuel tank in the rear bunker...


It's not that there isn't anyone who would attempt it, assuredly here are well qualified and very capable. Of ~250 made estimate maybe 25-35 in the US and nearly all others in the UK. Few in the US, no one(?), is OC to want to paint one. (Except maybe Zubi  He replace the boiler. Threaded on MLS.) Notwithstandin, other than RC, painting red as pictured could involve breakdown drivers and cylinders. Model pictured red (above) to me is not complete without painting below the waist and other detailing. 

Plus, WHR web site says the ACR color was Mexican Red. So there's the shade to pick and having to travel to the ACR to match the color in the Southern Hemisphere's sunlight. 

Just finding the right whistle with The sound and a proper canteen to tow; then there is the Lempor exhaust (ok, I suppose, just changing to the distinctive stack.), oy vey !  

Separate WHR web site item; they write that their plan definitely is to restore K1 to all its former glory.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the ability of a K1 live steam model garratt to run well with such a tiny boiler powering four cylinders? We're not going to have 'triplex' type problems on the little beast are we? 

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the ability of a K1 live steam model garratt to run well with such a tiny boiler powering four cylinders? We're not going to have 'triplex' type problems on the little beast are we?
> 
> Andrew


We know Accucraft quality, rather the question is primarily how long?

Water and fuel capacity of course are determiners. The burner will be critical for longest runs. Reported, Accucraft has made changes to the poker. Have not seen one nor any critique. Maybe it will have a ceramic burner? 

I think the NGG16 superheater issue will resolve itself with both cylinder pairs inboard. The SH pipe can be split in the smoke box. The steam pipe to each cylinder pair nearly the same length. Ideally the pipe section through the flue would be larger diameter than the individual pipes to the cylinders. 

What current Accucraft locos are comparable in size boiler? Probably the better vehicle for speculation - notwithstanding 4 versus 2 cylinders.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> Or is this confidential info for your eyes only and your're about to be shot? I'm sure you would hate to loose you.


The information was freely given by Garden Railway Services after I made a genuine enquiry about buying one, and which I will now to have to think about. Orders are still being accepted. They also told me how many orders they had ... a lot!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

This mention of things like "_Confidential, eyes-only"_ reminds me of when I was in the Philippines during the Viet-Nam war. We had a safe that was labeled *Top Secret-NOFORN*. The *NOFORN *designation meant that "No Foreigners" were allowed to see the contents. That was rather ironical, since, being in the Philippines, *we *were the foreigners.

We also had a mythical security designation, which was supposedly even higher than *Top Secret*, called *BBR*, which stood for *Burn Before Reading*.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

New from Roundhouse: http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/garratt.htm


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Roundhouse typically pictures their products in bright colors. What it might look like in colors other than military green (?). 

Peter Angus locomotives:


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

There was only one serious buyer willing to pay a decent price in the most recent Accucraft NGG16 on eBay. The others were only bidding for a bargain. I know the second highest bidder who was only willing to pay a low price. If it were not for that bidder it would have sold for $3,600 instead of $4,066.
The first one that sold only 3 weeks ago had 3 bidders for and above $3,899. Finally selling for $5,101.68.
The second highest bidder has now won the most recent auction. The third highest bidder last time was absent in the most recent auction. 

Sometimes you win by losing. I'm sure the most recent buyer is now pleased with the results saving $925.68 on his high bid last time. If it were not for the other bidder who was only playing with a low bid, he would have saved. $1391.68 instead which is a significant difference in price for two same items 3 weeks apart.
The difference being that the winner from last time is no longer participating and the third bidder did not bid in the most recent auction which only left a single low bidder and the bargain hunters for the winner to contend with. 

That's the thing with auctions. A high price is only reached if there are at least two willing to bid more than a low price. If the other bidders are opportunistic bargain hunters, a low price is an easy win.
The reason I study auction results is so I know what I am up against. 

Andrew


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