# A stub turnout I've been messing with



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I've been working on this stub turnout for a few weeks, off and on, along with other projects. This is for my 4 inch gauge "G.I. Joe" mine railroad. 1/6th scale 2 foot gauge. I've been using code 332 brass rail that I bought used from ebay for the track, and I have about 10 or so feet of straight track right now that's put together. I decided I wanted to see if I could build a turnout for the track, this is what I have so far.




The ties are cedar that I cut from a 1x4 cedar board from the lumber store. I've been lucky enough to find almost clear 1x4s to use to cut ties. On the straight track that I have on ties so far, the ties were made of "trex" type deck boards. Due to their recycled plastic content, they don't hold spikes very well, but on the plus side, they may never rot. 
I went with cedar for these ties because they're rot resistant, and will probably hold the spikes better.
Baking the frog assembly was an interesting challenge, but it seems to have come out well enough for the purpose I soldered it together with a propane torch after doing all the filing and grinding to get it to fit together. Now I just have to get the approach rails to fit correctly so that everything lines up to the frog. I'll do the stub rails last.


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi Amber,

Looks really good. Stubs are probably somewhat easier since you don't have to grind the points to fit the adjoining rail.
In any case it's fun.

TOM


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Amber...you may have to look into the trex as a tie more... 
I recall it mentioned - here on MLS - once the trex was cut .. it was exposed and lacking the outer protective surface...hence it does deteriorate... 

Your stub looks cool. I built some...mmm.. when I was a teenager.. a couple centuries ago! 
Using cedar or redwood works well for ties... 

Keep it up.. show more!! 

Dirk


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I made a bit more progress on the turnout this evening. I had to cut and file the 2 rail pieces leading up to the frog to get everything to fit with proper alignment of the rails. It was mostly "take a little off, check the fit, repeat the process." I also had to put an extra bit of bend in the curved rail to get to line up properly. I gauged everything off the long straight rail. 

 

The frog is all spiked down now, along with the outside rails, as far as the frog. I have to do a bit of trimming on the rail pieces that lead away from the frog before I can spike them down. I'm still messing with the tie placement past the frog. I think I'm going to have to cut a couple of longer ties than what I have for the area where the tracks separate, I think 2 longer ties would be enough to be able to start using standard length ties on each track without having to space them between the ties of the other track. Otherwise, tie placement is tricky.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I found a few good pictures of stub turnouts on the internet to use for reference for the design. The 3 way stub turnouts are quite interesting, but I don't want to tackle making 3 frogs right now.  
There's a really nice one in Alna, Maine in front of the museum's engine house. I also saw a picture of a 3 way stub turnout on the East Broad Top RR.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

without having to space them between the ties of the other track 
No reason why you shouldn't interface them. The prototypes did. 


I also saw a picture of a 3 way stub turnout on the East Broad Top RR.


You mean this one?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for posting the pic Pete. I was trying to figure out what a stub switch is. soon to be 61 years old and still learning. Now if only my memory allowed me to remember what I learned today.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes Pete, that's the one.  
As for the ties, I want to get a bit further from the frog before I start using standard length ties. The longest switch ties that I have on the switch are about 7 scale feet, 14 inches. If I cut 2 ties that are about 16 inches long, that's all I would need. It seems odd that an 8 foot tie would be long enough for both routes past the frog, but then, it's only 2 foot gauge. I don't know if there's any existing pictures of any turnouts on the Gilpin Tram line that you can see any details on. I haven't found any online yet. The Maine 2 foot gauge lines seem to have a bit more picture documentation, but most of the stub switch pictures I've found seem to be 3 foot gauge. They're probably not much different though.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber, 
I was curious why you had so many ties so close together. On a 2' gauge mine railroad, it would be very lightly built, with ties about every 1-2 ft. 

Like this one: http://jitterjunction.com/R&R%2...G_0721.JPG

Or this:


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Interesting link. It looks like they're using 4x4s for ties on that railroad. 
My normal tie spacing for the railroad is about 2-1/2 to 3 tie widths between the ties. That seems to work well with the length of my rail sections, 3 ties per 12 inch section. The longest rail sections that I have are 12 inch pieces. 
I went with closer tie spacing on the turnout because the ties are all that holds the turnout together. I didn't solder any of the track joiners because everything was done freehand, no plan. I was using short pieces that I got as part of a auction on ebay to make the frog approach rails, and I had to custom fit them to get everything to fit. Now that I have it all fitted together, I suppose I could solder all the rail joiners and re-space the ties, it probably would look a bit more like a mine tram if I did that. I hadn't thought much about it until you mentioned it, but the ties really are pretty close together, like a mainline turnout.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber

Maybe you'll find the following of interest on your stub switches. The example book in the link is of a c. 1891 vintage, however there are many other years of the same publication also available (some newer and some older e.g. 1894, 1913, 1937 etc.). You'll find the information on turnouts/switches located between pages 770-789 (book page numbers), and if you choose to download the PDF version of the book from Google Books to your local computer (i.e. 58.75MB) that would be Adobe Reader pages 853-872.

Google Books - The Civil Engineer's Pocket Book of Mensuration... c. 1891[/b]


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That's a lot of good information there! 
At some point I'll have to make the slide plates for the stub rails to slide on. I have several ideas, I just have to figure out which is the most practical one for me to make. I should make them out of brass stock, it's fairly easy to work with I might inlet them into the ties where the ends of the rails sit. I saw a picture online where 2 ties were fastened together by the slide plates, one of them being the switch stand tie. A basic ground throw switch stand should be easy enough to make, and I might add a spring to it for tension if I put stops on the slide plate.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A basic ground throw switch stand should be easy enough to make, and I might add a spring to it for tension if I put stops on the slide plate. 
And there you have the essence of a good stub switch - getting the moving rails lined up accurately with the non-moving rails.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A basic ground throw switch stand should be easy enough to make, and I might add a spring to it for tension if I put stops on the slide plate. 
And there you have the essence of a good stub switch - getting the moving rails lined up accurately with the non-moving rails.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

One problem you might to plan for, rail creep. I found on my line that the rails tended to expand into the gap between the moving rails and the switch, thus locking things up. 
The gap didn't ever seem to get wider just smaller. Tapping the rails apart was a weekly chore. 

Harvey C.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I can see that happening when the railroad is outside. The temperature changes will cause expansion and contraction. I'm probably going to attach the stub rails to the regular rails with loose fitting rail joiners, so the rails will move easier, and to allow for expansion. I'm not worried about electrical contact, the rails won't carry power. 
Does anybody make fish plates for code 332 rail that are actually functional instead of just decorative?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Well at 4" gauge code 332 will certainly not look oversized. please show us more of this, intriguing!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 01 Nov 2013 11:46 AM 
Well at 4" gauge code 332 will certainly not look oversized. please show us more of this, intriguing! Amber,

In the latest GR (December 2013), under New Products it is noted that Peter Nuskey in Pennsylvania, has code 625 aluminum rail. Available in 10 foot lengths at 62 cents per foot. It is the same height as the old BuddyL rail.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Code 625, that must be 5/8ths inch rail. I think that's the same as the rail that Marty is using on his 4-3/4 inch gauge railroad. I'm not sure how well the wheels that I'm using would work on that rail. I've been using Sierra Valley 7/8ths scale wheels for my mine cars. They're a bit small for the purpose, but I haven't found any 2-1/2 inch to 3 inch diameter wheels to use, and all the bigger wheels are rather expensive, especially when they've been machined. I don't have the ability to machine the cast wheels that I've found. With the Sierra Valley wheels, I got the largest diameter 7/8ths scale wheelsets. The wheels are about 1-3/4 inches in diameter, about 10-1/2 scale inches. I removed the wheels from the axles and pushed the insulators out of the wheels, then I used 5/16ths inch rod for the new axles. I found that the hot rolled 5/16ths rod is a bit small, the wheels fit loosely and don't stay in place, but the zinc plated rod is very tight, you have to chamfer the end of the rod and force the wheel on. An arbor press would be handy for that, but I don't have one, so I had to use a hammer and basically pound them on. I had to start with the rod longer than I needed because you mush out the end of the rod that you're pounding on. Once I had 1 wheel on I cut the other end off the rod to about the right length, chamfered it and pushed it into the other wheel from the back. Once I got it started by hitting the other wheel, I used a bolt as a punch to keep from messing up the wheel that was already on the axle shaft. 
The interesting thing about code 332 rail in this scale is that it scales out to somewhere around 12-15 pound rail, about what you'd expect for mine rail. I think I figured out that 1/2 inch rail scaled out to about 30 pound rail. I think the 5/8ths rail would scale out to about 45 pound rail, pretty reasonable for a narrow gauge line.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Here's a picture of my little flatcar with a load of ties and a G.I. Joe, sitting on the turnout. I must have done something right because the car goes across the frog on both the straight and the curved route properly without guard rails, which I still have to make and install.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Speaking of tie spacing on the turnout, I had this picture in my files for the caboose, but it shows most of a stub switch on the Gilpin Tram. Other pictures that I've seen of the Gilpin Tram track work show an average tie spacing of probably 3 to 4 tie widths between ties, but they seem to have used closer tie spacing under the switches. I would assume that it was to help hold the switch rails in place.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I re-spaced some of the ties on my stub switch assembly last night and then laid it out on the floor to see what it would look like, There's lots more work to be done to it, but it's starting to look like something now. I still need to cut 2 more switch ties to put on the wide end of the switch, I may only need 1 but I'll cut 2 at the longer length, just in case. I also need to make the slide plates for the stub rails and figure out how to hold the stub rail ties in place. I might put a scale 4x4 across the ends of the stub ties to keep them in alignment. I think I saw that in a vintage picture of a stub switch. I've seen pictures of stub switches with 1 switch stand tie and with 2 switch stand ties, depending on the type of switch stand that was used. I have a couple of different ideas for the stub rail slide plates, I'll have to see what works out for me.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Tie plates for 332


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Those would hold the rails in place nice, but they wouldn't allow the rails to slide back and forth between the 2 sets of turnout rails. If they were twice as long they'd probably be quite useful.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Bending the Iron! what fun. 
When I made stubbies in On3 I soldered little wires on the two outside rails as stoppers to keep the rails in line. If you cut down the plates of 2 outside pieces, so they butt together closer, you can use the spikes as stops.... I'd slightly bevel the mating edges for smoother rail sliding over imperfections. 

Keep the top part as the pic shows 'em and drill for extra spikes through the outer flat part to hold to ties, plus a dab of glue... 

Just an idea. 

John


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, I did think about that. The ridge on the outside of the tie plate would be quite useful as a rail stop for the turnout. A couple of spikes put in the holes, but noght tight would hold the rail from rolling inward. Of course, that would probably be unlikely because the wheel pressure is on the inside of the rail, it would be more likely to roll outward. I know I need to make several rail spacers for the stub rails to hold them in gauge. That shouldn't be too much of a problem to make. I might cut a couple of rail connectors into short sections and then solder a rod across them from underneath. That's one idea anyway, perhaps the easiest one.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Amber...how bout using a brass rod with flatened ends ..drill a hole and matching holes in the rail web and drop small brass pins thru holes and solder together... 

I used this for spreader rods on my long switches.. 

Dirk ..great project ya got going!!!!!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I bought one of these years ago for bending metal.


It will do round stock too.


It has come in handy for things on my RR 


http://www.harborfreight.com/gear-driven-ring-roller-36790.html


JJ


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## Cooke (Aug 26, 2012)

John, 

Have you ever tried bending rail with your ring roller? Would it be possible?

Patrick


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I wanted to post a couple more good stub switch pictures from the 2 foot gauge. This one is in Alna, Maine. Notice the interesting switch stand they use here. 

 

This is a vintage picture of a 3 way stub switch in Phillips, Maine. This style of switch stand seems to have been in use back when the 2 foot gauge was active. 

 

And then there's this picture, from the EBT. I think the picture is credited has having been taken in 2003. Notice the interesting switch stand for the 2 way stub switch. What I find most interesting in this picture is the speeder, powered by a "hit and miss" engine, really cool! 

 

One thing that I've noticed about these 3 switches is that they all have only 1 long tie for the switch stand.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I've been sick with bronchitis for the last couple of weeks, so I haven't gotten much done on this project, or any others for that matter. I did manage to cut the slide plates for the 2 ties closest to the stub rails. I'm in-letting them into the ties so they're the same height as the top of the tie. That way I won't have to deal with the unevenness of the ties on a flat surface while I'm building the switch. Once I get the big slide plates in place under the stub rails, then I need to drill the spike holes in the right places to hold the rails in place. I'll also drill holes for the spikes that hold the plates in place on the ties. Then maybe I can move onto setting the switch rails.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Amber, 
First get better! Well I hope you are... 

I really like the black and white pic, thanks for posting. I like the story it tells; center track set and all trains are 'low-balled' nobody is leaving town. 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

K...checking on Amber... 
Did ya ever get to feeling better there Girl? 

Your behind on our stub turnout educational lessons 

LOL.. 

GET well ....MLS CREW.... 

Dirk - DMS Ry. & the DMRR


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm hanging in there. I finally got the plague out of my system this last week. I finally started working on the slide plates for the stub rails where they meet the turnout rails. It took me a while to figure out how I wanted to do it. I decided to inset the slide plates into the ties to keep everything level for the rails. In the full size switch, that wouldn't be a problem, those ties would just sit a bit deeper in the ballast, but I'm working with the switch assembly sitting on a flat surface. I could have cut those ties a bit thinner, but getting the thickness right could be a bit tricky. For me, it was easier to just inset the slide plates. I drilled the holes for the spikes that hold the slide plates in place, once I get them nailed down, I'll drill the holes for the spikes that hold the ends of the turnout rails in place. I'm still thinking about what to use for stops for the stub rails so that they line up with the turnout rails, I have a couple of ideas for that. 
After that, I'll have to make rail spacers for the stub rails to keep them in gauge, and some kind of a switch stand. I have a few interesting pictures of 2 foot gauge switch stands that look like they would be fairly simple to make.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm glad you are back to good health. 
I look forward to your progress. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm glad you are back to good health. 
I look forward to your progress. 

John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

.....


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I made a bit of progress on this project recently. What usually slows me down the most is trying to figure out how to do something. My solution is probably not quite prototypical, but it seems to work, so far. I know a lot of mine trams threw stuff together with what they had available, so that's my story here. 
The slide plates are spiked down and holding the 2 ties together. I have the rails spiked down to 1 of the ties. I had to drill the holes for the spikes for the rails in position, while also keeping them in gauge. That was interesting. Now I need to figure out what I'm going to use for the rail stops for the moving rails, some switches had them, some didn't. I figured it might be easier to set up the switch with them so that I don't have to be so picky about adjusting the switch stand throw. I could also spring load the switch stand so the stub rails stay in place when you throw the switch.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

he rail stops for the moving rails 
Use a couple of loose(r) spikes on the outside, and none on the inside ?


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes Pete, that was one of the options, probably the simplest option. I also thought about making a little plate with a lip that the rail foot will slide under when it comes up against it. Then I can nail that down. But of course, I have to make those. Probably 2 pieces of brass, one on top of the other, with the upper one overlaping the lower one, and then drill holes through them and nail them down in the proper position. They shouldn't come loose like the spikes would eventually if used by themselves.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I've been stuck on the next part of this project, I'm not sure how I want to solve the problem. The problem is how to keep the stub rail ties in place so the stub rails will stay in place. On the big railroads, they just hold the ties in place with the ballast, but I don't think that would work out very well in this scale. The stub rails aren't spiked to the ties because they have to move, so I have to find another way to hold the ties in place. The only thing I can think of is to fasten some kind of strips to the ties to keep them spaced properly and not move around. I thought about putting wood strips across the tops of the ties outside the rails to hold them in place, but I haven't found a prototype for that. They normally do that on bridges, but I haven't seen it done on switches. I could put the wood strips under the ties, but I'd need to put them under the entire turnout to keep the turnout level, and I'd have to use a rot resistant wood I suppose I could use treated wood for that, I would just need to get thin enough strips of wood to use. I'm not sure if the strips would warp with being buried in pea gravel and probably wet at least some of the time. If they warped, it would mess up the alignment of the ties and affect the rail alignment. I might have less trouble with warpage if I use a bunch of short pieces of wood to tie the ties together.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hi Amber. How's your New Year? 

Frankly I was surprised you did not build your nice big stub switch on stringers from the beginning.... 

I'm thinking redwood or cedar might be hard to locate in your neck of the woods...? 
I would think as many have done before you, something like a 3/4" x 3/4" sq. stringer would "tie" together all the ties used in the switch. This would give you the control over the ties that only support sliding rail...of the stubs. 

Extra sealers help protect wood from the elements..pea gravel helps drainage also ..keeping long term moisture off both stringer and ties well. 

If your able to use a table saw..have one..or have a friend with one, stringers can also be made from strips and laminated together..then sealed once dry. By using multiple laminations it reduces the inherent stress in wood that causes warpage as we know it.. glue with Titebond 3..great stuff outdoors..some use gorilla glue also. 

I know this sounds like lots of extra work...once a saw is set up..it is just pretty repeditive cutting.. 
I find the results worth while..esp when building for longevity. 

Good luck there Girl. Your making a nice switch!! 

Dirk


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I could put the wood strips under the ties 
As Dirk says, it is standard practice to put stringers under the ties. It holds everything in place when you are spiking! With a stub switch, I don't see much alternative. I used redwood on mine. Thin formica strips might work if you want to keep it low profile.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I can't get redwood here but cedar is not a problem. I'm using cedar for the ties. I was thinking about using treated wood strips for the stringers, I think it would hold up better than the cedar under the ties, but it might also be more prone to warping than the cedar. We have an old sears table saw that I used to rip the cedar tie strips from cedar boards. I have extra tie strips that I cut but didn't cut ties from yet, I could rip one of them in half for the stringers. I suppose it would be a good idea to treat them with some kind of sealer before I put them on the ties. I probably should also treat the underside of the ties.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I agree that treated wood will warp more.. than cedar 
I see most of it already warped on store shelves. 

And brushing or spraying a sealer or preservative will help and the ties also.. 

I prefer a healthy dose...brushed on over spraying tho... 

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Amber,

Just to add to your gallery of stub switches, the V&T used them, and here's a couple.



















Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The movable rail has to have a pivot point. What are you doing for a pivot point. I was thinking of a stub switch but have not mastered the pivot point of the movable rial. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I think they just let the rails bend JJ, at least in some cases.

[edit]
This article indicates either bending or hinging. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stub_switch#Stub_switch


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

With the full size switch, it's my understanding that they bend the rails. There's usually several gauge bars attached to the rails to keep them gauged properly when they move them. 
With my switch, I'm planning on using a loose rail joiner to put the other end of the stub rails into so they'll pivot when the switch lever is thrown. I'll use track nails to hold the joiners in place, and the next section of rails will also help hold the stub rails from sliding further into the joiners than I want them to. I'm sure a person could solder a brass pin to the end of the stub rail for the pivot point also. If the track joiner idea doesn't work, I'll try the pin idea next. I would solder the pin right onto the end of the rail and then file as necessary so that the pin doesn't interfere with the wheel tread or flange. You could put the next rail right up to the pin and it wouldn't interfere with the movement of the stub rail. 
Actually trying to bend the rail in this scale would be impractical, I would think.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Good pictures of stub switches!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am thinking of using a expansion joint from Split Jaw for my pivot point. That way the rail can lengthen when the switch is thrown. 

JJ 

PS My stub switch is on the back burner while I am on my car barn building frenzy .


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm planning on using a loose rail joiner to put the other end of the stub rails into so they'll pivot 
That's what I have been using on my switches for years. Here's an old pic - the rail has a depression made by starting to drill the underside and the rail joiner is dimpled into the depression with a center punch (or nail.)











I believe that some prototypes also used a fishplate/rail joiner (?) as a pivot, with slightly less than tight bolts and heavy spring washers on the inside. 

P.S. The EBT stubs used 3 gauge bars to hold the rails in place - you can clearly see them in the photo I posted on page 1 of this thread.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

That way the rail can lengthen when the switch is thrown 
JJ, 
Why do you want the rail to lengthen ?!? The adjoining rails that it connects with can be adjusted to match the thrown position of the stub.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Hopefully the weather will warm up a little later this week like the forecast is saying, the table saw is outside under a tarp, and it's been way too cold for me to want to go out there and cut the tie stringers for the turnout. If it does get into the 20s, and it doesn't snow, hopefully I'll get the stringers cut this week.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 03 Feb 2014 09:05 AM 
That way the rail can lengthen when the switch is thrown 
JJ, 
Why do you want the rail to lengthen ?!? The adjoining rails that it connects with can be adjusted to match the thrown position of the stub. 
I was working on a 4 position switch a while back. I put the project on hold because of a problem with the movable portion of the switch. I don't remember exactly what the problem but I am thinking it had to do with the length changing as I moved the switch between rails. 


JJ


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I've been a bit lazy and distracted about getting back to work on the switch for the last few weeks. I did manage to get the tie stringers cut a couple of weeks ago, we had a nice sunny day with the temps in the 20s, so I went out and cut the strips. I've had too many distractions since then to get back to work on the switch. 
The switch looks about like a #4 switch, but it's still going to be 5-6 feet long when it's done. Maybe this coming week...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I managed to get the tie stringers nailed onto the ties today. It certainly helps to hold the ties in place. I also got the stub rail ties naild to the stringers so that part is done. The rails are in place, but I need to make the spacer bard that hold the moving rails in gauge, and I need to make a throw mechanism. I used 12 inch sections for the moving rails, with loose rail joiners to hold them in place but allow them to move back and forth.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I see my picture links from flickr aren't working the way they used to.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/13116315834/in/photostream/

test


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/13116312414/in/photostream/


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/13116311084/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/13116125893/in/photostream/


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I guess that's the best I can do until I figure out how to post pictures here.


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## Cooke (Aug 26, 2012)

Amber,

Looks nice. Your photos reminded me of Mark Hogancamp's work. I think I saw a documentary about him at a Banff Film festival tour if your not aware here is a link http://www.marwencol.com/gallery/
Here is a YouTube link to the trailer to the film 



Patrick


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That's a really cool video!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)




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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)




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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Looks like you're back into the pix Amber!!

I would like to offer one suggestion here..
If I did this ...I would use a long straight edge to capture and align the straight stock rail, the moving stub rail, and the stub base rail...

Cars will flow smoothly thru all three pieces of rail this way...
When passing thru the curved portions, the stub points will begin a gradual transisition making a nice entry in that direction..

Otherwise it is looking fantastic!!!!

Dirk


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

The cat was being helpful...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'll have to check with my straight edge and see what the alignment is. I can always realign it a bit if needed.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Amber, 

I ran across this photo today, and thought I'd tack it onto your thread. It's a 3-way stub switch, showing the cross-bars across the sliding rails, and the plates on which the rails slid.

http://contentdm.library.unr.edu/cg... Virginia Truckee&REC=19&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0

How's your switch working out? Have you run trains through it? 

Cliff


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Amber, 
It's me again a day late and a dollar short but here is the pic you need! Stops are bolted to the fixture plate.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice pic John.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Now that's a good detail picture! 
I see they tied 2 ties together with the big plates, so I guess I'm not too far off on that one. 
I need to get that switch finished. All I really need to do is to tie the stub rails together and build a switch throw.


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## general1861 (Jan 22, 2010)

Very nice work Amber.. When I do my Civil War era layout I will need to look this thread up..... Travis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

John, referring to the pic I last posted a link to, do you have any idea how the rails were locked in the middle position? I imagine some locking feature in the harp stand...?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The 3 way stubs I've seen don't have a harp stand.... A quarter turn equals one move....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hmm, I could've sworn I'd seen one with the harp, but now I can't locate any... so I guess you're right... at least for now...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well John, I did finally find this: 









Here's the source site, where a slightly higher res version exists.
http://wnhpc.com/details/ssl0010

[edit: stupid me, I'd posted this and another 3-way harp already here, on 2/2/14. Guess I'm geezing again.]

Maybe pins on chains for the middle position...??

(Sorry for the intrusion Amber!)

--C

[edit: here's what I just heard back from a V&T historian:]

"The switchstand has a flat plate on the top of the harp with hinges running the long way. This plate has large notches in it into which the throw rod (the one with the target on it) can fit. The notches lock the rod into one of the positions on the switchstand. To throw a switch, the plate is hinged back releasing the rod so it can be moved. It is moved and the plate thrown back with rod now positioned in a different notch. A switchstand designed for three positions would have three notches in it, left, center and right."


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, that harp stand system makes sense to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there were several variations of that system. 
I'm guessing that making a harp stand in scale could be a bit of a challenge. The full size ones were probably made from castings.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

In response to my question about whether the angle-lock was the primary means of indexing the rail ends of travel, this came in today from the same V&T historian:

The ends of the rails on a stub switch moved in a head block. This was a flat iron piece that the stationary rails fit into (somewhat like a rail joiner on model track). The head block also contained a flat section over which the stub rails moved. Cast into the head block were stops so the moveable rails would be aligned with the stationary ones. The throw rod on the switchstand had several holes at its lower end so the throw rod of the switch could be connected in the one where the end of the switchstand throw moved the points just the right amount. All switchstands have some kind of locking mechanism to prevent the points from moving away from the proper position.​
Anyway, it would be neat to see a stub switch kit with castings for the harp, "head blocks", frogs (that you could just plug the rail into), throw bar, and etc., with the modeler providing the rail, ties and spikes.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, that would be a good kit to have on the market. You would have to have 2 kits, one for code 332 rail and one for code 250 rail.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I think my switch has about a number 4 frog, I think that for G gauge, you'd probably want a #6 or 8 frog, unless you're in a tight space with short wheelbase equipment.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I've been talking further with some V&T dudes, and they say that the frogs were generally commercially purchased as well. So in the field, armed with 1:1 switch kits, the track layers just cut the rails and put holes in them, bolted to the frogs, and started spiking. No rail grinding, no bending of wings (I think they even had guard rails prefabbed). 

So, totally agreeing with what you said, one would think there would be scale versions of that (with differing frog angles, and made for 2 rail heights). Also, I think the frogs would need to be made with epoxy filler perhaps, for electrical isolation for us rail power guys.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You rail power guys just need isolated frogs powered by point position. Nothing fancy.

I have vague memories, and I'm lucky to have those... of an arc with notches and a springy upright. Pull it out of the notch and slide it to the next one. 

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Maybe like this 1:1 kit? I just ran across this 1894 (I think) catalogue of switch-related equipment, fun to browse!

http://books.google.com/books?id=yJAOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another...
http://books.google.com/books?id=uxdWAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1120#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Gee..just like a Sears catalog. ..'cept fer switch stands...

Ya ...make the diverging rails 6" - 12" long...past the frog... a gap n more rail....
Two trains won't sit that close together without clipping each other....

But some might try that trick...more train wrecks a comin....

;-)


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Lots of good information in those books! A couple of those casting would be really handy to have in G scale.
I think you could use a cast frog from any of the G scale track companies that sell them to make these turnouts, you just need to decide what number turnout you want to make. Figuring out how to make the part that the second book refers to as the head block would make building a stub switch somewhat easier. It holds the ends of the rails in place so that they're properly spaced for the stub rails to line up to. It would be easy enough with a milling machine, a bit trickier making them by hand.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Not sure what you mean by trains clipping Dirk? 

And maybe you're referring to the length of your #36 (I forget) frogs? ;0


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

When a train approaches a frog, there is a point where a train on each diverging track would touch corners - an impassable point such that only one train can pass thru the turnout at a time..
Any closer and they both wreck...!! Ha
But it is that point that they would clip each other....

Regardless of turnout numbered size here, the distance from the frog increases as the frog number or angle increases....
So with in this clipping zone a gap can easily be located for electrical isolation....
rather than the effort to design and build an insulated frog assembly.

How's that for a mouthfull!!?

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Makes sense!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

See...I learn't sumthing from building HO layouts..
..n hand laying track and turnouts...
....since before I could drive a car...trains came first!!!

By default now...I know not any better...
..still hand laying rail...

Dirk


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That would be the easiest solution for powered track. Of course, if you don't use track power, than you don't have to worry about isolation gaps. I suppose it depends on what you run.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

So, to tie all that back to the kit approach, true, you could have the insulated gap distant from the pre-built frog. Or, you could insulated clamp-type joiners at the frog rails (or regular, it would be your choice). 

Main thing is that in the 1:1 world, at least for the V&T, they regularly bought their frogs and just bolted their rail to them in the field. I guess what I'm saying is that it would be interesting to see someone attempt a real-world approach to rail laying with this method, where frogs, rail lengths, guard rails, etc. are pre-made, and everything hauled to site on a 24' or 30' flat cars. Mainly a spiking and bolting operation, with some cutting and drilling... Vs. having pre-built "switches". Probably not practical for the garden, but maybe indoors. 

Just musing... 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Just musing...
Cool.!!
I'm laughing here..its OK tho...
I'd either have to cut my switches up....ouch!!
..or build a 180' scale "turnout flat car'' to carry the parts out doors...and lay track ahead of a switch....

Just musing..seems to be catching here..!!
Increased brain activity from warmer days!!
D ( mmm..the turnouts I have made come with miniature machined frogs..that the frog rails screw to...)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Totalwrecker said:


> You rail power guys just need isolated frogs powered by point position. Nothing fancy.
> 
> I have vague memories, and I'm lucky to have those... of an arc with notches and a springy upright. Pull it out of the notch and slide it to the next one.
> 
> John


 Wow I said to myself, cause I listen...

yeah like that...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So what happens when a three position harp operates a normal two position turnout..
And the harp is in the middle notch.

Lol

D


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well...if the switch stand is a 3 position stand and you have a 2 position turnout, you use the middle notch and one of the end notches, or else you have to shorten up the throw by quite a bit...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Grab one of the spares leaning on the building behind, they even have a One Position throw for you!
lol
John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Looks like they are all 3 position stands, middle for straight and leaning for diversion, one stand can be used for left or right and 3 way.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber,

There is a Harp switchstand kit available in in 1:20.3 from Phil's Narrow Gauge. I also know there are a few available in 1", 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" Narrow Gauge. Try this link:
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/

Look on the left side of the page for Buy/Sell items.

As creative as you are, you should be able to fabricate a nice Harp stand from brass and simple tools. Check the numerous narrow gauge websites and I know I've seen drawings of that style.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Cliffy said I should post this here.

This is what I did for a stub switch. 

I put in a expansion track from Split Jaw.

This allows the piviot track to move with out the ends of the rails changing length 

It also allows me to retract the pivot track from the stationary ones. 

I still have to work on how to move the pivot track from one section to another

Not all the stationary ones have been cut to length in the pictures.

When finished they will all be the same length


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for posting those JJ!
Wow, 5-way stub! I look forward to learning from your experiences with this.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Picking nits...
I'd call it a 5 way selector switch, but not a true stub as he has no froggies .
Carry on.
John


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## Cooke (Aug 26, 2012)

I have seen similar track work called sector plates on the Micro/Small layout website at http://www.carendt.com

I believe it may be a British term. 

Patrick


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Totalwrecker said:


> Picking nits...
> I'd call it a 5 way selector switch, but not a true stub as he has no froggies .
> Carry on.
> John




We don't need no stinken frogies......

JJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ri-vet, Ri-vet......


I've got your frog right here!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I put in a expansion track from Split Jaw.
> 
> This allows the piviot track to move with out the ends of the rails changing length


 Neat solution JJ.



> I still have to work on how to move the pivot track from one section to another


 Your hand might work well! 
Otherwise, my hardware store has 12" and 24" lengths of threaded rod. Lay it under the ends of the tracks, attach the moving stub with a nut or two, and turn it with a knob, handle, motor ?

I've seen folk use gate bolt-style latches to hold the rails aligned.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Pete 

I have used those bolt style latches They work real well for two position switches.

I have some on my layout now. 

I have a search on E Bay now for Jack Screws. I have a driver board for a stepper motor too. 


JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm reminded of the 5-way yard switch that Train Li used to well. There was a thread on it and the 3-way a couple years back:

http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-t...roadbed/20623-train-li-3-way-yard-switch.html


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

yah dats why I said what I did.
I'm curious tho why you suggested cluttering up Amber's thread?
I don't think JJ's creation really belongs here, a totally different breed and it's not a fine scale effort. Nothing wrong with his creation, but here?
What do I know? I'm just an old geezer....

Happy Rails

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Totalwrecker said:


> yah dats why I said what I did.
> I'm curious tho why you suggested cluttering up Amber's thread?
> I don't think JJ's creation really belongs here, a totally different breed and it's not a fine scale effort. Nothing wrong with his creation, but here?
> What do I know? I'm just an old geezer....
> ...



I put it here because of the expansion track. I thought that part was relevant. 

JJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry JJ, I wasn't casting aspersions, no disrespect to you. I remember you said Cliffy suggested it...
It looks like your trick is handy, but not relevant to a scale model. There is no need for an expansion in any other switch.
That was my point and I'm curious why Cliffy thought it is. Ok they are both ways to change track.... similarity ends... to me.
I think the expansion use is good enough to be a stand alone thread. 
It's no big deal.
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Though the design of stub and "yard" (or whatever) switches is different, I consider them to be similar in regards to bending the common rails to one of two or more positions to accomplish the switching. True, "stubs" have frogs, but it seems to me that the need for such is a function of angular separation of the outbound legs, rather than anything fundamental.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh.

Sorry Amber, I think we intruded.

John


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

See what happens when I go away for a little while...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I haven't been able to get anything more done on that stub switch for the past month or 2, just too many other distractions. All I really need to do now is to put the tie bar onto the stub rails so that I can move them with a switch stand of some kind, and then build a switch stand for it. You'd think I could get that done, but it hasn't happened yet. Who knows, maybe this coming week when I'm not at work...


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