# Aristo Revolution TE speed matching



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I posted this in the product reviews forum because I'm attempting to review the feature, and how it works on this new product.

I'd really appreciate it if we stick to only this topic, (it's hairy enough). Also all items presented by myself will be facts, any opinions will be so noted, so why don't we keep the bashing comments to zero. In fact there is another forum where DCC is being bashed as opposed to the TE, be my guest to comment there.









The TE is compared on an almost daily basis by Aristo to DCC, and DCC's speed matching capability works and is documented, so since no other system has this concept, the TE functionality will be contrasted and explained in the context of the successful DCC function.


Basically, the goal is to get two or more locomotives to run at identical speeds at all speeds from zero to maximum. 


In reality, different model locos will have different maximum speeds, so you cannot get all locomotives to go the same top speed. Luckily, most locomotives can approach a top speed we can live with!.


In DCC, there are many methods for speed matching, but I will describe the simplest case, because it is the one the Aristo system comes closest to. The 3 point speed curves, custom built in speed curves and complete step by step custom speed curves are, to coin a phrase, "beyond TE".









The 2 settings needed to do basic speed matching are in CVs (configuration variables) 2 (start speed) and 5 (max speed). Most DCC systems run in 128 speed step mode. (although several actually use 1024 or 2048)


You set a value in each CV and the DCC system will interpolate a "speed curve" (normally linear) between these 2 speeds for all steps in between speed step 1 and speed step 128.

In most cases setting one loco as your "standard" and then running the second loco in a consist near by and setting these 2 CVs is all you do. This should take just a few minutes. 10 minutes is my average.


In the Aristo system you have a start speed and a max speed. What is not clear yet how these work. Speeds are expressed as percentage of full speed.

From what I understand, setting a start speed of 25% throttle means that as soon as you "crack" the throttle, it jumps to 25% power immediately. That seems to be analogous to how the system applies power, but it sort of just "locks out" the speed steps from 0-25% In DCC, you RE-MAP those steps to different voltages.


On the top speed, it appears that the Aristo system is a "limiter", like a governer on a motor. DCC max speed setting CV5 is an endpoint to interpolate a speed curve from start speed to max speed.


*Main point: From this information it APPEARS that you can match 2 locos near the starting voltage, and also near the max speed, but the system does not "interpolate" the speeds between.*


Now, this should work OK if your total speed range is narrow, or you run near each "end" of available speeds.

It has been stated and hypothesized by several people including Aristo management that changing the speed step size on one loco will allow you to change the "speed scale" to match locos.


But, it has been also stated that the speed step is per loco, but actually per "cab".... when you put locos in a consist on an Aristo system, they must be on the same "cab" (obviously, since consisting is defined as a single point of control for multiple locos).

There is conflicting information on the Aristo site about this, it appears the speed step is set on a cab by cab basis, so while 2 locos on 2 different cabs can have different speed steps, I do not believe that different locos can have different speed steps in a consist.

*Point: It seems that the speed step size cannot be different for locos in a consist since they use the same "cab" number, and the setting is per "cab".* 



So, the procedure is very much a cut and try experimentation, since it appears that the Aristo system only sets "limits" at the start and top speeds, as opposed to the true interpolation of speeds between the DCC start and max speeds. This is supported by people who I have talked to and by the posts on the Aristo forum.


In a recent posting, Aristo shows a long thread of text to "prove" that the DCC procedure is more complex, and requires a speedometer car and programmer. This is not so, and the DCC procedure is much simpler and faster to accomplish. I make this statement based on the number of people posting how much fooling around it took to get locos near each other. I can do it in about 10 minutes with 2 locomotive and no other special equipment. You basically set the start speeds so that each loco just starts crawling at step 1, and then run them both and adjust the max speed(s) on the fly while they circle a loop of track.


*Point: So, it seems that some form of speed matching, limited to mostly the extremes of speed, is possible with the Aristo system, but it is more complex, takes more time, and is less deterministic than a DCC system.*


Aristo has stated they will add a "speed offset" for individual locos in a consist, by +- 25%. Unfortunately, this is again not adjusting the "gain" of the system, or the "speed curve" as is done successfully in DCC, but just a bump in speed. The fundamental problem that not all motors are linear in speed vs. voltage is not being addressed here.

*In summary, the Aristo system has a method to minimize speed differences between locos, but it works in a fundamentally different way than DCC and it does not adjust the "curve" between the start and max speeds, but only adjusts the end points.
* 

*For many people who do not run a wide range of speeds, and will not do complex consisting (like mid or end of train helpers), this should be more than sufficient, and is a big step forwards in capability from Aristo. 
*

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Greg, and this is my opening salvo on this topic. 

"Wow" 

Regards, 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's intended as a factual review of a very specific feature of the new TE. There's a lot of confusion, even on the Aristo forum. Thought I would present the information I have where information is accepted if it is factual, even if unpopular. 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 

So I take it that your have not had a hands on test of the Aristocraft Revolution, is that correct? 

Has anyone used the Revolution to match the speed of say an Aristocraft diesel to a MTH Challenger, which is what I want to do? 

Terl


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Lots of hypothisizing but a lacking in hands on.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sure the hands on will happen when the units are available in May. Then we can get the rest of the story.







Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is not lots of hypothesizing in my post, it is factual. Perhaps you are referring to the hypothisizing I mentioned on the Aristo forum? I have gone by the manual in most cases, and made sure there is supporting evidence that the system works that way. The setting of the start speed, top speed, and how the speed steps are connected to one cab is all factual.


Actually, there is lots of information from people unable to perform the matching, and lots of information from the manual and lots of information from Aristo management. It is just that I feel that a definitive answer is not available. I'm hoping that one of the "beta" testers will come forth, the people who have had these for months. The production units are scheduled for 15 May. 

Ed Headington and Paul Norton are frequent contributors on this forum, so maybe they can validate these specific operations of the TE, i.e. confirm what is in the manual. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Do you think they'll ever let you get your hands on one?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Heres a link to some videos that might answer some of your questions...* 



http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...rt_field=title


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*TOC vs Elmassian! 
The fight of the century!*[/size=5]


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 04/30/2009 3:52 PM
Do you think they'll ever let you get your hands on one?


Here's a thought .... Greg can start doing product reviews for Bachmann and you (TOC) can start working the Aristo products. It would be a change of pace for both of you and they would never know what hit them!


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Regardless of the can and can't do's, I think the new Revo will be a significant upgrade from any of the previous TE's. I have too much invested in QSI, G Wire, etc to even consider adding another control system. Now, from what I have read on Aristo's forum they seem to be wondering why QSI hasn't made their stuff compatible with the Revo. That perplexes me, but, until SOMEBODY does something to make the two systems compatible I will stick with my current system. Again, regardless of all the pro's and con's the new Revo should be hands down better than previous TE's. When it is compatible with QSI, if ever, I may take a better look at it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The story why Aristo is not compatible with QSI is quite funny and it goes back to some decisions that Aristo made themselves. I won't recount the information, but it's not as presented on the Aristo site. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience with the 75 mhz system is part of what steered me towards QSI/Airwire, and made me leery of the REVO. The 75 mhz works, and it's reliable, and it's cheap, but it doesn't do most of the things promised. I've also invested a good bit in QSI and I like it a lot, and the compatability with DCC means I'm less likely to get stranded if the REVO fails. Having tried QDI< it's jnust nuts to me that they are doing sound the way they do.


At the same time, I wish them well with it. It looks like an easy system to do most things with, and that's good for the hobby generally. Easy for beginners, which is very important. Aristo is good at that.

It's important to have hype resistant goggles on though.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You mean about the diatribe on how complex it is to speed match on DCC and all the extra equipment you need? 

Yep, glasses or goggles are important, sometimes it gets deep and hip waders work wonders. 

Anyway, I suggested that Aristo interface to sound boards like AirWire does, but what do I know? 

I do take heart that my original comments about consisting difficulties were taken to heart by Aristo, and caused a change in how it's done, it originally required re-binding and stopping the loco, hitting the programming button and re-linking. 

As much as I may be persona non grata, my other comments on speed matching have caused new firmware to be developed, the new 25% plus and minus "trim" is going into the TE firmware. This will help users. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Doesn't do you any good to suggest or recommend. 
You need to become a CONSULTANT! 

Then you can get everything done you want to get done.....unless somebody finds out what you're doing and blows the whistle. 

I wonder who is "helping" them?


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