# AAR type-E double shelf couplers



## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

My latest project in 3D printing. Some of the dimensions need a little fine tuning, and I think the knuckle may need a tweak to keep it from coming back too far across the center line. 

These are 1:29 scale. Compared to Kadee #1’s, they are slightly larger. They look alright to my naked eye, but the close-ups really show the fuzz of the SLS nylon.

And before anyone asks: no, I don’t know how strong they are yet. I may print one in steel to use to determine the breaking point of a nylon one.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Burl-​ ​ Awesome!!!!! I've been wanting shelf couplers for tank cars. How long until you have a website where we can purchase items?​


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll offer them through Shapeways, not my own personal website.

I really need someone to test a set for me, since I don't have a RR to run on right now. I'd feel more comfortable releasing them that way.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Is your design based off the Kadee design? If your serious about couplers, you might want to contact Sergent Engineering http://www.sergentengineering.com/EC64K_Instructions_frame.htm
They make scale couplers in HO and S scale. I'm not sure if they are cast, or printed, or a combination of both. But if a 3D print could be used for a mold, and cast in metal...

I'd offer to test them out for you, but I'm out a railroad as well. Would a simple pull test on the bench work?

Where you able to find coupler drawings online, or was it drawn up from pictures?

Craig


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

They are designed to fit a Kadee box. I used drawings I found at http://www.columbuscastings.com and the Car Builder's Cyclopedia. The drawings give all the important dimensions, but some shapes are kind of hard to decipher, so I used the CBC to fill in the blanks. This is the most difficult thing I have ever drawn in Sketchup, by a long shot.

I'd really like to get someone who has a functioning GRR to test a set... just to make sure they stay coupled, provided enough swing for curves, etc.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

I have a small GRR with 9' and 10' diameter curves. Only have six freight cars, so not a lot for pulling heavy weight. Not sure really how to "officially" test the strength. Short of hooking them up to a fishing scale and seeing how many pounds until it breaks.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Burl,
You've mentioned the Car Builder's Cyclopedia before. Is this publication on a annual basis? A google search doesn't really say. I might need to add this book to my collection via a inter-library loan and a flatbed scanner...

Greg E. might be a good person to contact regarding testing these couplers. He's got various grades, and has plenty of experience doing objective reviews.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Simmons-Boardman published the CBC's. The ones I have are 1961 & 1997 editions. I don't know how frequently they put them out, but I don't think its annually. You can find them on eBay, or check with the big RR book sellers. They aren't cheap, but if you're a serious prototype modeler, they are a good investment.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Burl. I'll put the library staff to work to see if they can locate a ILL copy. I've acquired quite a few unaffordable BN annuals this way as well! Not quite the same as having a physical copy, but a full PDF is pretty handy to reference.


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## DTI356 (Jan 3, 2008)

Craig,

The 1961 CBC (Car Builders Cyclopedia) was the last of the Car builder books. After that they combined the Car and Loco books together and called them Car and Loco Cyclopedia (CLC). The CLC's came out in 1966, 70, 74, 80, 84 and the latest is the 1997. The data in the CLCs is less than the CBCs but still of great value. Each Cyclopedia is roughly 1000 pages give or take.
Hope this helps,


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

DTI356 said:


> Craig,
> 
> The 1961 CBC (Car Builders Cyclopedia) was the last of the Car builder books. After that they combined the Car and Loco books together and called them Car and Loco Cyclopedia (CLC). The CLC's came out in 1966, 70, 74, 80, 84 and the latest is the 1997. The data in the CLCs is less than the CBCs but still of great value. Each Cyclopedia is roughly 1000 pages give or take.
> Hope this helps,


So, where would one find information on cars/locos built after 1997?


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Brian,
Thanks for the info. I put in a ILL request the other day, and am still waiting to hear back. I haven't gotten the "item not available to be loaned" message yet so I'm hoping. A 1000 pages would be a huge chuck to scan so I'd probably cross reference with my ORER's (I've gotten those on ILL loan as well, plus I bought my own copy!).


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a pair printed in steel. That's a Kadee 1900 for comparison.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got a pair assembled now & I'm happy with how they came out. By the way, they are difficult to uncouple!

I'm going to make them public at Shapeways. If anyone wants their own, here's the link: http://www.shapeways.com/model/2041...upler-1-29.html?modelId=2041168&materialId=23


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Burl said:


> By the way, they are difficult to uncouple!


Is this because of the shelf or the metal material?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Burl, those look plenty beeefy !

Do you think they warrant the extra strength metal provides ?

I would "guess" they only need some fine sanding or filing to clean or even just burnish the mating surfaces ..to give smoother response uncoupling.

Look impressive tho!!

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Burl, did you ever do a stress pull test on the printed nylon set?

....


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk, I cracked a nylon set assembling them. So that was as far as I went.

Eric, they couple fine & the knuckle moves very freely in the metal version. Its the nature of the double shelf that makes them hard to uncouple. I actually designed the knuckle to sit out farther from the body than the prototype. If I had made them as tight as the prototype, they would have been too tight to get a screwdriver in to uncouple.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I'll bet that was a rude awakening eh!!

Sorry...we press on...the nature of the beast...

Makes one wonder what our large manufactures go thru to get an entire car or loco built..not just a part or two....

Dirk - Thanks...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Brittle nylon might be a by product of printing, the molecular cross section is probably pebbly vs continuous strands.
It's new, new bugs to work out.
John


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

"the latest is the 1997"??

Nothin' new the last seventeen years? You sure they're still in business?

JackM


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

The more I thought about this, the more I was not happy with trying to make my knuckle work like Kadee's - so I decided to copy the prototype design. It still has some tweaking (you can see a brass shim on the lift pin), but I am getting closer to a prototypical knuckle coupler. I'm considering making a provision for a spring to help it open - because just like the prototype, you have to hit the lift pin two or three times to get the knuckle all the way open.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Burl,
Have you looked at Sergent Engineering couplers in HO scale? They have a small ball bearing that rests on the locking pin of the coupler, when you bring a magnetic wand over the top it pulls the ball bearing up, and the pin opens. 
Since you are getting closer to a prototype opening method, have you considered closing the spacing of the coupled couplers? IE make the knuckle head profile exactly like the prototype?
Looks good, if your successful have you thought about making all the various types? E, G & H? I've been thinking about contacting Sergent Engineering to see if they would be interested in developing a 1/29 coupler, or what kind of base they would need even to consider it. They have a "S" scale coupler in the works along with the full line of HO couplers. They look really nice and couple really close without a lot of slack between the coupler heads.
Craig


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I did my drawings from the tight-lock design and found that they were too tight for a model, so I made the knuckle set out a little farther from the body.



I talked to Sergent a while back & he was very helpful as far as providing information goes. However, he said the size of a 1/29 coupler was too big for his production equipment.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I would also be interested to know if anyone reading this has found a competitive alternative to what Shapeways offers in metal. When I uploaded my revision today, I just noticed they’ve jacked the price up again. Now it costs me $52 to print one pair of couplers. At that price, I can’t see anyone interested in buying them – especially not at the quality of print I’m getting in steel.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Burl said:


> I did my drawings from the tight-lock design and found that they were too tight for a model, so I made the knuckle set out a little farther from the body.
> 
> 
> 
> I talked to Sergent a while back & he was very helpful as far as providing information goes. However, he said the size of a 1/29 coupler was too big for his production equipment.


I was wondering. I had thought about contacting him regarding this, but sounds like your on the ball (and faster than me!). I wonder if you could use the metal ones as a master for a lost wax casting or injection molding? The plastic was way to brittle, correct?


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I felt like I was far enough along in my design that I needed to have a coupler made in brass. It came in today:


















The difference between printing in brass, versus stainless or nylon, became apparent when I assembled this one. Brass allows much tighter tolerances. 

Early on, I realized I need more swing in the knuckle to allow it to open farther. In the pictures above, one is open and the other is closed. While prototypical, I don't think its reasonable for model operation. 

I also changed the shape of the knuckle to put an edge on the inner face to help it stay coupled with Kadees.

I still need some tweaks before I've got something I'm ready to use as a pattern, but I'm getting closer. And the internal spring I added to this version worked very well - so I'm happy with that part. Here are my revisions for the next print:


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Those are awesome! I hear you on Shapeway's prices. I was looking to get drivers printed in brass, but they came back with $100 per wheel. 

Later,

K


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, but they've jacked up their prices on some plastics to where brass doesn't seem so outrageous to me anymore. These are around $66 a pair to print. I'm hoping when I get a finalized version I can send out for investment casting, the cost will more be reasonable. Now if I can only find someone to do the investment casting for me...


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Why do you think the prototypical opening is too small? Looks about the same size opening as on the Sargent engineering couplers. But then I've heard mixed reviews about then in actual operational practice. Looks good. So once you have the design finalized it will be relatively easy to redesign the shelf coupler? Or a type H?


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

If you were coupling apples to apples, then the knuckle swing would be fine. The prototype is designed to slip apart when the pin is lifted. Think of hanging on to something with your hand, then relaxing your fingers to let go. 

Since I don’t see someone buying these for every car they own, I’m assuming people would want them to be compatible with Kadees. I realized there are other couplers out there too, but Kadees are pretty standard, and you can’t be compatible with everything. Anyway, that’s what I’ll do – every car I build after I release this, I’ll put my couplers on. But I’m not going to retrofit everything I have. 

So if we’re going to couple apples to oranges, then my thinking is you want the knuckle to pop open wide enough (when the pin is tripped) so that it can couple with a Kadee without having to mess with the knuckle. I don’t want to have to stick my hand between cars to pull one coupler to the side to make it link up either. 

I realized early on that tight-lock couplers weren’t going to work either, so there’s a little slop built into it by lengthening the knuckle. I also added a small lip on the inside of the knuckle to help it stay coupled in a curve. Because of that, they need a little more clearance to uncouple freely. Now uncoupling is no longer like relaxing your fingers and your hands sliding apart, but its like your fingers are stuck in the coupled position and you have to move them apart side to side, then pull back.

I will do shelf and double shelf couplers after I get the current design finalized. Type H couplers would be an entirely different project. To be honest with you, a coupler is the most complicated thing I have ever attempted in Sketchup, and I’m not sure I’d want to try it again.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Burl,
Great points and well taken. I'm in the process of converting couplers from the Bachmann/USAT/Lionel truck mounted into a proper body mount.

I for one am glad that you're at least attempting this design! I certainly don't have the Sketchup skills right now to design these, so I applaud you for at least trying! I'd be interested when you get the final design done.
Craig


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I have a winner this time! This is my 5th revision, and now everything is fitting together & working like it should. The knuckle now opens wide enough to uncouple from a Kadee without a lot of hassle. Now I can get serious about finding someone to do the investment casting. 





































I also had this printed in stainless steel:










Sorry the photo is fuzzy - camera phone out in the shop. After the first couple attempts I made at drilling out the knuckle, I realized there was no good way to clamp it, so I designed this jig. I had one printed before in nylon, but it couldn't stand up to the heat generated during drilling.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

My first set of production castings arrived today, and everything looks good. Not the best pictures I've ever taken, but its raining outside so I had to make do with shop lighting.



















The cost will be around $35 a pair. They will come assembled. 

I would like to figure out how to blacken them. Anyone have suggestions?


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had a few inquiries about using my couplers on other rolling stock. My couplers are designed to work with a Kadee #1 scale coupler box (http://kadee.com/htmbord/page1920.htm). So, if you can mount a Kadee coupler box on it, my coupler should work with it.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I made an attempt at blackening today. This is a product called Birchwood Casey Brass Black:


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Burl,

Great job, they look very realistic. I'm glad you are making them compatible with the kadee's. Keep up the good work.

Bill


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

The first production castings of the double shelf coupler have arrived. Everything looks good so far. Now to get them on some rolling stock...


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

So who is going to test them? It would be nice if you could sell them thru the forum and paypal. But I would only be interested if they cost considerably less than cadee or Aristo-Craft that go for $15 a pair , you can often get a flat car with couplers for that, so it does not make sense to me. I hope someone can make good G scale knuckle couplers at a fraction of the cost of cadees. It should be possible.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No way a low volume cast metal knuckle will be cheaper than a plastic Kadee, even if it had the same number of parts.

I would be interested in some, would they be close to prototypical look on my lightweight streamliners?

Burl, will you be offering some for sale?

Greg


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I will be offering them for sale. See: http://burlrice.com/_LS_Coupler/

I assume you're thinking of a regular type E coupler. Unless a double shelf is appropriate for a streamliner.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

They look perfect, surely they are the best ever made, most sincere congratulations, I am looking for Aristo-Craft type or regular cadee type, and am not ready to pay that much for them, as you must have gathered from my last post. But of course many people will buy them and the price is fine for such brilliant couplers. 
I imagine you could if you wished make just about anything. Quite amazing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think maybe so... see this page, they seem to imply they were on some passenger cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tightlock_coupling

Greg


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of those look like they could be shelf couplers, but they are not type E. I'm not really up on passenger equipment, but I think what you're after will be type F or H.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You're right, I misread that page, they are compatible with type F, not used on passenger cars... But your creation looks great, as always!

Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, passenger cars use type H couplers. Nothing close in large scales yet.

They are not even readily available in HO (unless you use Sargent). You have to file off the shelfs on a Kadee SF coupler to get an H. I've done this for my HO passenger cars.

Burl's great looking custom coupler is an SE type (Shelf E). In this case a double shelf E.


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