# voltage drop



## BIGD2039 (Jan 22, 2010)

planning to expand my layout, i am sure aventually i will run into some voltage drop issues, right? how can i fix that. i can already notice if i put to locos on the same track, they dont run that smoothly, if im just running it analog with the small lgb contoller that came out of a starter set. do i need to to up grade to a bigger and better one, what do you recomend. going to digital is a little to costly for me right now. what do i need to do to expand and get morer power. thanks...........


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's how I started out--small loop in the garden with an lgb starter set power pack. It's been a blast all the way. 

Voltage drop, caused by the resistance in the wires and the track, is probably not going to be your biggest problem--maintaining continuity will be harder. To address voltage drop, use the biggest wire you can and send multiple feeders to the track. For example, I had the wires from the power pack pigtailed into 6 wires, which then went to the track at three different places. It's also a good idea to have as few track sections as possible--use a single 5 foot long piece of track rather than 5 one foot pieces. 

If it's running rough, it could be the track needs cleaning. It could also be the some of the connections between track pieces are weak. What kind of track are you using? It's a good idea to put clamps on the track sections 

Also those LGB packs are nicely made, but they can't output much current, and they aren't "regulated." That means that if you are running a loco, and you add a second loco, both will slow down--the power pack can't maintain the current level. 

What you want to look for in a power supply is amperage--how many amps can it supply? The LGB starter packs are I think around 1 amp. I ended up with a 10 amp power supply, so I could run multiple trains. You might not need ten amps, but something more than one will help a lot.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On an unregulated supply (one that does not automatically maintain a constant output voltage), as you increase load, the voltage will sag. 

How much depends on what percentage of the capacity of the pack you are ALREADY at. 

So, if you have a one amp pack, and are pulling 1/2 amp already, you are at 50% capacity already, so the voltage will sag, and even more with another loco. 

If you have a 10 amp pack, and are pulling 1/2 amp, you are at 5% capacity, nothing, so the voltage probably will not sag at all. 

(simple transformers voltage will sag under load) 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

To the OP -
Remember that in Large Scale the resistance of code 332 brass track is less than any feed wire you are likely to use.
The best way to minimize voltage drop is to make sure you have a solid electrical connection between track sections and as already mentioned, try to use as few track sections as possible.
I have seen very large layouts with only a single feed and that worked fine.
With stainless steel track you will benefit from multiple feeds because the resistance of that track is much higher than brass.

When this type of question comes up, I always dig out this chart:


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

How big is your layout now (how many feet of track) and how big are you going? I have about 130' of brass track and just have one power feed. I use rail clamps, and I think that is why I have no power issues. 

In your case I'd agree that your power supply is the issue and not a voltage drop. If you plan on running multiple locos I'd suggest at least a 5amp supply and even better would be 10amp. There are a couple of threads in this same forum that folks have provided some power supplies.


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## BIGD2039 (Jan 22, 2010)

I HAVE MAYBE A 60 FOOT LOOP, WITH AN OUT OUTER SEPARATE LOOP, NOT INTER CONNECTED, SO THEY ARE ON TO SEPERATE POWER SUPPLYS. ITS ALL BRASS LGB TRACK. AND I DO HAVE ALOT OF THE LGB 4 FOOT TRACK SECTIONS IN THERE, SO I DID TRY TO USE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF COUPLERS AS POSIBLY, BUT YOU KNOW THERE ARE STILL SOME AREAS WERE I HAD YO USE 1 FOOTERS, SO WHAT I AM HEARING IS I NEED TO UP GRADE MY CONTROL PACK AND UP THE WIRE SIZE, AND IF I USE RAIL CLAMPS I SHOULDNT NEED MULTIPLE HOMERUNS FOR FEEDERS. 

(sorry about the all caps.)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, while technically correct, your "argument" rests on ZERO ohm connections between sections of rails, which is IMPOSSIBLE. 

While you should strive to make the rail to rail connections as good as possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE to make them the SAME as solid continuous rail. 

Therefore, from a practical standpoint, you do need multiple feeds if you are concerned about voltage drop. 

Yes, I have seen layouts with a single power feed.. MINE... I disconnected all the feeders and powered from one point.. .it works, but you have to increase the speed of the loco at "large distances". 

Just because people can do it, it does not mean that there is no significant or noticeable voltage drop. 

A single run of wire from power supply to rail will beat multiple connections over a similar distance... when you are talking fractions of an ohm, it's easy to get a half ohm of resistance in one of the rail to rail connections. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I find that soldered jumpers are the best method to assure conductivity between the rail sections. It makes absolutely no difference how much dirt and corrosion get in between the rail joiner and the rail. They are far cheaper than clamps, less obtrusive, semi-prototypical, better conductivity, let the track expand between the joints, etc., etc., etc.

The only thing is that most people don't want to go to the extra effort up front to install them, which is really not that big of an effort if you do several sections together on the work bench, then take them out to the yard.

I guess maybe it comes down to if you have more money (and a bad back?), or time and sense. I look at this as a hobby and try to keep costs down where ever I can. If I were to install rail clamps, I would have almost doubled the cost of my track. All of my 250+ pieces of rail have jumpers.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I should have qualified my post in assuming rail clamps/joiners. Sorry. 

I will have to measure the resistance of a soldered joint some time, but I agree it is the lowest resistance form of connection, and done properly, the most reliable. 

Of course us SS guys are pretty much SOL in that area! 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By BIGD2039 on 10 Mar 2010 12:36 PM 
I HAVE MAYBE A 60 FOOT LOOP, WITH AN OUT OUTER SEPARATE LOOP, NOT INTER CONNECTED, SO THEY ARE ON TO SEPERATE POWER SUPPLYS. ITS ALL BRASS LGB TRACK. AND I DO HAVE ALOT OF THE LGB 4 FOOT TRACK SECTIONS IN THERE, SO I DID TRY TO USE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF COUPLERS AS POSIBLY, BUT YOU KNOW THERE ARE STILL SOME AREAS WERE I HAD YO USE 1 FOOTERS, SO WHAT I AM HEARING IS I NEED TO UP GRADE MY CONTROL PACK AND UP THE WIRE SIZE, AND IF I USE RAIL CLAMPS I SHOULDNT NEED MULTIPLE HOMERUNS FOR FEEDERS. 

(sorry about the all caps.) 
Big D:

I would still say that voltage drop is not your problem, either dirty track or bad connections between track sections is the problem. Yes, you will probably need to upgrade the power pack--the MRC 10 amp is really good. Clamps would be good as well--the best are probably split jaw, aristocraft makes some serviceable camps for cheap, also train-li. Clamps will work really well.


But befoee you get clamps, try this--go to the auto parts store or the hardware and get some antisieze compound. It's used to prevent oxidation. LGB used to sell it as "conductive paste"--the LGB stuff works well. Squirt/spread a little of the paste/compound into the joiner before you join the tracks, and also tighten the joiner a llittle with pliers


Alternatively, to see if oxidation/corrosion is a problem, go to Home Depot and get, in the electrical dept. a spray can of FMC "2-26," a spray cleaner and lubricant. Its very good at cleaning up corrosion. You can use the same thing to clean the wheels on your loco, although it is a lubricant and could cause some splipping


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Mar 2010 01:08 PM 
Knut, while technically correct, your "argument" rests on ZERO ohm connections between sections of rails, which is IMPOSSIBLE.

While you should strive to make the rail to rail connections as good as possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE to make them the SAME as solid continuous rail. 

Therefore, from a practical standpoint, you do need multiple feeds if you are concerned about voltage drop. 

Yes, I have seen layouts with a single power feed.. MINE... I disconnected all the feeders and powered from one point.. .it works, but you have to increase the speed of the loco at "large distances". 

Just because people can do it, it does not mean that there is no significant or noticeable voltage drop. 

A single run of wire from power supply to rail will beat multiple connections over a similar distance... when you are talking fractions of an ohm, it's easy to get a half ohm of resistance in one of the rail to rail connections. 

Regards, Greg



Hi Greg -

I know one cannot get ZERO ohms resistance between connections, in fact there is very little that actually has true zero ohms resistance, certainly nothing we use in Large Scale, but I don't see how my post (not really an argument) depends on that.
All I'm pointing out in my post is that the resistance of brass rail is much less than the typical feeder wires people use.
I think the idea that feeder wires are necessary is still a holdover from the smaller scales, H0 and N, where the small cross-section of the rails do warrant running multiple feeder wires.

I'm actually thinking of solder joints between rail sections not clamps, just because I'm cheap.







Clamps can get pretty expensive - I would only use clamps in areas where I may have to remove a section of track - at each end of a switch for instance.

A good solder joint should have a resistance in the several micro-ohms per centimeter range. There is a bit of a study on that here:
http://www.metallurgy.nist.gov/mechanical_properties/solder_paper.html

I have no clue what the contact resistance of a typical rail clamp is - theoretically not as good as a proper solder joint since it's just a pressure connection.
But it's easy enough in practice to measure the voltage drop across each rail joint and correct the problem if there is one.


Regards, Knut


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

From the original message, the poster indicated that he is using a starter set power pack. He DOES have a voltage drop issue and 99% of it is in the power pack itself. It is sagging under load. 

If you want to run bigger trains, best to spend a few bucks now and get a power pack that has sufficient capability. 

Greg, what is the cost of the big MRC pack? 

- gws


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By krs on 10 Mar 2010 03:35 PM 


Hi Greg -

All I'm pointing out in my post is that the resistance of brass rail is much less than the typical feeder wires people use.


Regards, Knut 



True, but consider the typical dog bone. If you connect your feeder wire in the _front center_ of the bone, the electricity has to run all the way around the bone to reach the _rear center_. On the other hand, the rear center may be just 1 foot further from the power supply than the front center feeder, so you are comparing the resistance of 1 foot of wire to say 100 feet of track. As an added benefit, now you've cut the resistance out to the ends of the bone by half. In such a case, the feeder is certainly viable and may improve performance.


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

A new MRC pack is around the $150 range now and then used $60 and up.... I now have 3 of these I used and love them!!!!!!!!!!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 10 Mar 2010 04:30 PM 
True, but consider the typical dog bone. If you connect your feeder wire in the _front center_ of the bone, the electricity has to run all the way around the bone to reach the _rear center_. On the other hand, the rear center may be just 1 foot further from the power supply than the front center feeder, so you are comparing the resistance of 1 foot of wire to say 100 feet of track. As an added benefit, now you've cut the resistance out to the ends of the bone by half. In such a case, the feeder is certainly viable and may improve performance.



I agree.
But all I'm doing is providing some numbers of code 332 rail (brass and SS) rail resistance compared to various gauges of copper wire.
That way people can easily decide if for their specific layout multiple feeders provide any benefit - you picked a specific case where it probably does.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Knut, the word "argument" does not necessarily imply arguing as in conflict, but presenting a case with facts and information. 

I did do some interesting tests on my layout, which is all stainless Aristo rail and all SplitJaw stainless clamps. 

I put a load on the rails that draws about 6 amps. 

I then took a voltmeter and put it on each side of each rail joint. I found several with a .1 volt drop. Since I run sectional track, I have more joints than when you use 8 foot lengths of rail. 

It does not take much distance to drop a volt. This is on one "side" so total drop 2 volts. 2 volts at higher speeds makes a significant difference in speed. I've been struggling to get a prototypical passenger train speed with my Aristo E8's. A difference in a few volts can make a 10 scale mile per hour difference. 

Again, top speeds, passenger trains, etc. But Aristo E8's are pretty low geared, so I was stuck at 65 smph. I don't run Lionel speeds, but without some "top end margin" you start limiting yourself especially when speed matching locos. 

So small drops can add up to a measurable effect in certain cases. 

Regards, Greg


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## BIGD2039 (Jan 22, 2010)

thanks for the info lownote, and every one else. i deffenitly learned alot.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Good luck! Have fun and don't let these guys intimidate you! They love to argue


I started out exactly as you did, and now I've got it where it runs reliably, every time. Took me a while but it was fun all the way


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Mar 2010 09:16 PM 
I did do some interesting tests on my layout, which is all stainless Aristo rail and all SplitJaw stainless clamps. 

I put a load on the rails that draws about 6 amps. 

I then took a voltmeter and put it on each side of each rail joint. I found several with a .1 volt drop.



Greg -

That 0.1 volt drop is a lot higher than I would have expected.
After all, the clamps are supposed to make a solid electrical connection.

What was the range of voltage drops you measured? Did you try tightening the screws on the clamps to see if that made any difference?
I was wondering what the best connection (lowest resistance) is one could expect with SplitJaw clamps. 

Soldering would definitely give a better electrical connection but it's a bit tricky.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, no kidding! Very dismaying to see that on my layout.

It seemed I had some goop in the clamp, not corrosion, but something else, I think it was some leftover stuff I was experimenting with for keeping corrosion/dirt/moisture out.

In some cases, tightening did it, but others, that had been "bad" for a while, had carbon buildup inside.

I removed the clamp, wire brushed (small dremel brush), sprayed clean and reattached).

When I got done, the drop went down to about one hundredth of a volt (using fluke voltmeter).


I'm trying different compounds to see what will keep dirt and moisture out, and lube the screw threads so I can torque them down nicely.

Regards, Greg


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## BIGD2039 (Jan 22, 2010)

You know whats funny, im actually a electrition and have thought about different way to fix my problem. but still new to the hobby and didnt want to smoke or ruin any thing, everything i have read all makes scence. its all the same as dealing with bigger electrical systems, just way scaled down to low voltage. thanks agian for all the help 

You know what will probably work really good for coulpers, the company IDEAL make this product call KNOLLOCKS, come in a thing like elmers glue, you can find it at any hardware store, but we use it on all feeder wires. for feeding panels, transforers, and services, it gets squirted on the wire were it terminate to a lug, its to stop currosion and help the flow of electricily. this would work perfictly, and probably way cheaper then the LGB brand.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In another thread, where we were discussing a similar topic, I mentioned I was trying NOALOX (NO Aluminum OXidation) in my rail clamps. It's been several months. 

It's made for aluminum oxidation specifically, so don't know how appropriate it is for brass or stainless steel. 

On major way to stop oxidation is to fill the area with grease, so water and air don't get in. NOALOX also has anti-oxidation chemicals, but, again, no info on anything but aluminum. 

The LGB stuff is a graphited lithium grease, you could use the grease from a car parts store, the black stuff for wheel bearings, lithium based with molybednum in it. 

Again, neither of the above have any specific chemicals to inhibit oxidation or corrosion. 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the stuff that we used when I was young and worked for a power company in an overhead line crew.

NO-OX-ID / A Special[/b]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately , that would create an insulating layer and defeat the electrical continuity. That stuff is an insulator and painting preparation, sort of like spraying Rustoleum on your rails and the clamps first. 

You need a grease/liquid that will allow metal to metal contact, but will cling to surfaces that would be otherwise exposed. 

It has to "squeeze out" under pressure. 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, so try this link then, and note the H0 model reference at the bottom of the page.

NO-OX-ID / A-Special Electrical Grade[/b]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now, that product is different, it's identified as a grease right off. Looks good. Apparently 2 versions. 

Reading carefully, it's a grease that clings and keeps oxidation down by keeping air away... 

Now you are in the land of lubriplate, wheel bearing grease, deoxit, crc-26, noalox, etc. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jim in MO (Feb 28, 2010)

Greg, I'm getting ready to lay about 300 feet of the same track you use so if you come up with any suggestions on something to do at the joints I'm interested. It would be nice to solve the problem before it happens! What about using a heat sink compound between the joints?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 12 Mar 2010 03:23 PM 
OK, so try this link then, and note the H0 model reference at the bottom of the page.

NO-OX-ID / A-Special Electrical Grade[/b]


This sounds almost too good to be true.
I also found this:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147011&postcount=1
but it's essentially the same information than on the manufacturer's website - same source as well.

I wonder if anyone has tried that compound on their Large Scale layout especially an outdoor one.
Sounds in theory as if this will take care of the oxidization problem for people running track power.

There are several proven meathods to get good electrical conductivity between rail sections but nothing so far that I know of to address the

oxidization issue other than cleaning the rails.
This compound supposedly somehow reacts with the metal (wonder if it works with brass as well as Nickel- Silver which the N and H0-scalers use) 

to prevent oxidization. 


Knut


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Knut,

As I stated above the only experience that I have with the product was when I was working as part of an overhead line crew, but the power company sure put their faith in it.

As to it working with brass and/or nickel-silver, while I'm no chemist nor an expert in metallurgy both metals mentioned are copper alloys where the major percentage of the alloy is copper, and since they claim the product works on copper, aluminum, & steel it would seem to follow that it should.

I'm certain that there's a good measure of hyperbolic marketing copy within the product claims. So to a certain extent the axiom 'to good to be true' has to be given its due. Additionally, the rigors encountered in an outdoor environment (i.e. tree sap, bird droppings etc. etc.) would be something the indoor model railroading segment would never have to face. Still there could be merit in its use, especially if it doesn't leave a sticky residue like some of the other products mentioned.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Here is an interesting link for NO-OX-ID:

http://sanchem-inc.com/index.php?p=...ds-Bridges

http://sanchem-inc.com/index.php?p=...ne-Catalog

I also am very interested to know if anyone has tried this outside, as it sure sounds like it could save us some work, long term. The idea of putting grease on the rails, expecially if there was a grade involved, concerns me. If someone trieds this, please let the group know. 

Regards,
Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think any high quality grease will be the major factor. 

Slight improvements can be made with a more tenacious grease (like never-seize), and/or one specially compounded to help resist oxidation. 

I surely do not think you can go wrong with the stuff that Steve recommended, or the NOALOX stuff from home depot. 

I have had some NOALOX treated rail clamps in place for about 5 months, will try to check tomorrow to see how they fared. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Seems to me No-Ox-ID and NOALOX are different chemical compounds used for different purposes. 

No-Ox-ID is supposed to somehow combine with the metal in the rail to prevent oxidization longer term. 
The way the application is described - clean the rails, apply very little of the compound, run all your locos for a couple of hours (no cars), 
then leave it for at least 24 hours (to bond with the rail I assume), then wipe any compound off the rails and the loco wheels - ie no grease when you're done. 

NOALOX sounds more like a grease one applies to an electrical connection to prevent it from corroding over time - ie good for rail joiners for instance.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm only addressing the No-ox-ID Special Electrical Grade, which is a grease, not a waxy coating, like the first post of Steve's. 

I'm skeptical of any of these compounds "bonding" to the rail, i.e. combining molecules. It's a coating as far as I can tell. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Mar 2010 06:52 PM 
I'm only addressing the No-ox-ID Special Electrical Grade, which is a grease, not a waxy coating, like the first post of Steve's. 


Now you have me confused.

In your post you said:
I have had some NOALOX treated rail clamps in place for about 5 months, will try to check tomorrow to see how they fared 

How are you addressing NO-OX-ID?

Just theoretically? 
The NO-OX-ID claims to bond with metal somehow.


Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, there are several different NO-OX-ID products, please be specific or the conversation and my comments make no sense... 

There is one that is a waxy coating to block oxidation. 

There is one that is a grease, especially for electrical connections. 

I hope it is intuitively obvious that if you coat electrical contacts with wax they won't conduct electricity! 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg - 

I'm talking about the one where Steve posted the link: 

http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html 

No-Ox-Id A-Special 

That includes the blurb at the end about coating the rails, waiting a day, then wiping it off and thus preventing oxidization. 

That's the one you said you were "addressing" but what you are actually testing is something different - thus my question. 

Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I am not testing that one... I thought that was clear, sorry. 

I still remain skeptical that this other stuff will "bond" to the rails, it's hard to find stuff that does that to metal. 

I've been in the hobby for many years in several scales, always track powered. Every month there seems to be a new miracle liquid to apply to the rails. 

Everything I have ever investigated or tested is normally an oil or grease that stays on the rails and keeps oxygen away. 

So, we will see, maybe I will buy some, it will depend on if the NOALOX is any better than just ordinary grease. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Mar 2010 07:08 PM 
Knut, there are several different NO-OX-ID products ..........



Gosh Greg, 

You weren't kidding. There are more than just 'several' - I wonder how one figures out what's what.


http://www.sanchemshop.com/sitemap....868/nooxid


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 13 Mar 2010 10:38 PM 
Gosh Greg, 

You weren't kidding. There are more than just 'several' - I wonder how one figures out what's what.
Knut

I believe the one you want is...
[*] NO-OX-ID "A Special" 8 oz tubes[/b]










However, at $17.36 per tube it's a bit pricey (and I read somewhere they have a minimum order of $35), but then again they are used to selling strictly on a commercial level. Maybe you can find the product available at a retailer some where. 
[/list]


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

It looks to be only $11.95 through this site, although still have to pay for postage.

http://www.oelsales.com/product.cfm/258/

Regards,
Mark


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 14 Mar 2010 04:57 PM 
Posted By krs on 13 Mar 2010 10:38 PM 
Gosh Greg, 

You weren't kidding. There are more than just 'several' - I wonder how one figures out what's what.
Knut

I believe the one you want is...
[*] NO-OX-ID "A Special" 8 oz tubes[/b]










However, at $17.36 per tube it's a bit pricey (and I read somewhere they have a minimum order of $35), but then again they are used to selling strictly on a commercial level. Maybe you can find the product available at a retailer some where. 
[/list] 



Real nice! They tell you to rub it in with your finger, but they don't tell you what's in it or what you are exposing your skin too.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Reading the Sanchem site, it's very confusing... In a section on the A-Special section, they recount the uses and then give an example of the other waxy stuff and talk about corrosion by being underwater. 

The site Mark gave gives more specific information, and makes me think that the stuff is a bit thick for some uses. Put in a rail joiner, which is tightened right away, it should be fine. 

Very confusing information on the main Sanchem site. 

I'll await people's experiences. 

Regards, Greg


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 14 Mar 2010 06:39 PM 
Posted By SteveC on 14 Mar 2010 04:57 PM 
Posted By krs on 13 Mar 2010 10:38 PM 
Gosh Greg, 

You weren't kidding. There are more than just 'several' - I wonder how one figures out what's what.
Knut

I believe the one you want is...
[*] NO-OX-ID "A Special" 8 oz tubes[/b]










However, at $17.36 per tube it's a bit pricey (and I read somewhere they have a minimum order of $35), but then again they are used to selling strictly on a commercial level. Maybe you can find the product available at a retailer some where. 
[/list] 



Real nice! They tell you to rub it in with your finger, but they don't tell you what's in it or what you are exposing your skin too.









I would think they would be required to publish and provide (upon request) an MSDS for the stuff. That won't tell you specifically what's in it, but it will give the general classification and list exposure issues.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Well, wondering if anyone as made a test of this product yet? If so, some preliminary observations would be appreciative. 

Thanks,
Mark


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## dls3045 (Dec 6, 2010)

As a caveat I am not a model railroader in any sense except as a spectator. I am a technician with AT&T (originally started with Western Electric as an Installer in 1970) who has used NO-OX-ID A-Special for going on 41 years. The telephone industry runs on battery plants of 24, 48, 140 vDC, etc. I am in no way affiliated with Sanchem. NO-OX-ID A-Special is the only protective coating the Bell System (and later off shoots) has ever approved AND requires on all power connections. The application is to lightly burnish the surfaces with canvas or sail cloth and then with the fingers (the tell us to use vinyl gloves now) wipe a very thin coating on both surfaces. If you follow the first link I am includeding you will find information from small scale model railroaders who have used it. The fact that it is EPA approved for use in drinking water tanks and USDA approved in meat and poultry plants. 
http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html 

This link is for the MSDS sheets for the product 
http://www.northtowncompany.com/pdfs/no-ox-id a special msds2.pdf 

I hope this helps define the products advantages and capabilities as when it is properly applied one tube goes an extremely longggg way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Since you revived an 8 month old thread, which use are you espousing for the product? 

One use is in rail clamps and joiners (and my opinion is that it will work, but burnishing it into the foot of the rail cannot be done with a finger, use a Q tip, and you have even more difficulty getting it into the joiner. 

The other use talked about in this 3 page thread is on the rail tops, which I believe this is inappropriate for all the reasons already mentioned. 

I do appreciate you probably used it on battery and other large power connections, for which I can see it is well suited. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

for brass track, a permanent solution is to solder jumpers across the joints 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/track_soldering_tips.html 

The process is a little time consuming, but it is much less expensive than clamps and very reliable. No chemicals needed. 

The voltage drop is a millivolt or two at 10 amps.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I have soldered jumpers across ALL of my rail joints for many years, as George has suggested. I agree with him that it is the ONLY permanent solution. And since I am a turn on the power and what 'em run kind of operator, I have also equipped all of my rolling stock with LGB ball bearing wheels which back feeds power to the loco. I have never taken the time to measure voltage drop, but my trains maintain an even speed throughout their long runs. My main line is 150' long.


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

(I haven't read all of the old posts, so don't know if this has been discussed.)


The voltage drop in the wire from the supply to the track should be considered.

For AWG 12 gauge wire assuming 100 foot circuit length and a load of 5 amps, the drop is about 1.5 volts.

Another example: for AWG 10 gauge wire, 100 feet and 10 amp load, the drop would be about 2 volts.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

That's an excellent point Stan. I too have not read all of the posts. I have found that using old heavy gauge extension cords is an excellent way to transfer that energy to the track, or other electrical devices for that matter. And may I add that they are cheap, like $0.00. I had mentioned this a few years ago, before I retired. One of the last jobs I ran was a good sized addition at Bryn Mawr College. We had an OSHA visit one day that condemned alot of extension cords. They didn't wind up in the dumpster, and didn't get sold for scrap. I try to use 12 gauge or larger for track power. 
In cases where the final connection is to a switch motor, I sometimes reduce the last two inches to a suitable size to fit the motor connection.


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## pagosarr (Jan 5, 2008)

This is a wide ranging thread so forgive me for introducing a new issue. 

I have been using a product called Permatex 09128 Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant in my rail clamps for about 5 years. It has performed well in the heat of central Texas. Go to Amazon and search for Permatex 09128 Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant to get a description of the product. 

Roger Bush


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, anti-sieze is mentioned by Lownote in post #10, I also refer to it obliquely. 

It is in the category of non-conductive, and it's basically a tenacious grease, high temperature. I use the nickel bearing stuff on lots of stuff, since I was introduced to it by an aerospace engineer in 1968. 

Great stuff, not cheap, good especially on the threads of clamps, and really good on similar metals like SS screws in SS clamps. 

As for anti-oxidation, really no better than grease, just keeps the oxygen out, no special anti-oxidation ingredients like the other products presented here. 

Not electrically conductive either. 

I use the stuff on anything that could seize or gall. 

Regards, Greg


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