# 3D Printing?



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Would it be better to buy an inexpensive 3d Printer and simply make my own parts, since I'm capable of 3d modelling, or should I use a service like Shapeways or something local?

Would a cheap 3d printer be good enough to make parts for a 1:20.3 model of, say, D&RGW Derrick OP, and Pile Driver OB, or should I just have the parts I need made, since they'll likely be one of a kind?

Robert


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I think it depends on what you consider "inexpensive" how complex the parts are and how often you think you'd use the machine. I've printed some stuff on my nephew's $500 machine and was OK with the results, but obviously with inexpensive FDM machines there's a good bit of post-printing work to get a part with a nice finish. I've also had stuff printed by a service and been satisfied with the cost and quality--they were very small parts (screw couplers)

If you've already modeled the parts, you can upload them to a service and get a quote. I had some simple parts estimated by Shapeways at $180 (for probably 3 cubic inch volume of FDM printed parts) If I were going to print three sets of those, I'd just buy a printer, which would be cheaper. But I'm not building lots of stuff, so at this point it hasn't seemed worth it.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i have a "cheap" printer. (DaVinci AiO - $800,-)

by my personal experience, it depends, if you are a perfectionist, or not.
shapeways will make the best result possible from your files. - but they cost you an arm and a leg.
if you print yourself, you must be prepared, to first: learn to use various programs, that you will need to prepare your electronic parts for actual printing.
second: print the part at different angles, for best result.
third: file for hours and then use acetone (the stuff that cleans nailpolish) to smoothen the surfaces.
fourth: be prepared to repeat, if your printed object is off measurement by one or two mm...

it comes down to: do you prefer to DIY, or to pay?


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

kormsen said:


> it comes down to: do you prefer to DIY, or to pay?


Sounds like you are going to pay either way - either pay a hundred dollars, or pay a hundred hours.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you familiar with Mark Dashnaw's work?
He made me this:









And I turned it into this:









It took a bunch of bondo and sanding, but it was fun!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

on30gn15 said:


> Sounds like you are going to pay either way - either pay a hundred dollars, or pay a hundred hours.



My retired hours are cheaper by far, but life is like that isn't it?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Pros and Cons
Shapeways parts are pinting on much better printers, ones you'll not be able to afford for less than 30k
Shapeways cleans the model of all support material
Shapeways sets up the model for printing
Shapeways has a wider selection of materials to chose from than any printer available
Shapeways machines have a larger build space than all the affordable printers I've seen (depending on the material you print)
Cons
Shapeways takes a minimum of 10 days till you recieve your part
Shapeways charges for shipping


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

I agree with rkapuaala with Shapeways. Although the investment as a part / prototyping element is cost effective.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting. There are a couple of 3d printing companies locally, and you can get 3d printing done for free at the Denver Public Library. 

That may save some bucks...

Robert


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Wish our library had a free 3D printer. Schott made a good point. If I had the money I would invest in a 3D print not so much for parts, because Shapeway parts are better, but so I can test my model before I invest in it at Shapeways. Sometimes parts come from Shapeways that don't work, not because it is Shapeways fault, but because I missed something in the engineering of the part or my scaling was just slightly off. I could have saved some money in those instances if I printed it first and found the error. I would also have saved a lot of turn around time.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I've been using Shapeways a lot, and as Richard says, the quality is much higher than one can get with an affordable PLA printer. But if you have parts that don't need the higher detail (e.g., larger structural members), and can fill / sand when needed, you can use shapeways for only the smaller / critical items.

You might try 3DHubs.com, some cheaper local 3d printers have nicer machines, and can therefore produce higher rez parts. 

[edit]
For example, complex part I need, using SLA, is $40 at Shapeways. But a local guy with a Formlabs printer (using the same SLA process) just quoted me $15, via 3DHubs.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff,
I tried 3Dhub once and was disappointed that prices were actually higher. The turn around time was incredible though 1 day. Since I never used the guy before I went with Shapeways any how. BTW it might just be a regional thing with the price. I live on the central coast CA. So perhaps the prices are higher here than where you are?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Richard, I think it's hit-and-miss, since 3DH has no real control over who's providing what, and at what quality and price. My only experience with them was with a PLA print, and it was utterly worthless. But, since other people now have the nicer SLA printers, I figure it's worth another shot.

[edit: Even though Shapeways accepts my model for SLA printing, my quote was rejected by 3DHubs, due to the complexity...]


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## WCRR152 (Dec 26, 2015)

Another thing to keep in mind is size of overall parts. As said above shapeways charges for volume, so if you are looking to do large parts or complete 1:32 or 1:29 scale cars, you should look into your own printer. One large part might pay for your printer. I have now printed a transfer caboose, 60ft ttx flat car, ortner hopper and an sw1500 all in 1:29 scale all on a xyzprinting davinci 1.0(base model, old style). Also as said above be prepared in the first year or so to throw away parts that didn't make tolerance or that failed due to unforseen material conditions. Even with loosing about 1/5th of printed material I can print a full car for 10-30 dollars depending on the size and infill levels of the material. The one downturn is details, if you want detailed parts to go with it expect to still use kitbashing skills to get the brake wheels, and hardware for the cars. So if you want to go with detail parts think about utilizing shapeways or another printing service. 

WCRR152


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

WCRR152,
The thing about that logic is that most affordable printers have smaller build spaces than the printers at Shapeways even the top of the line accurate printers have limited build space usually less than 5.7" X 5.7 X 6.9" over all for the Formlab2 $3000 machine. Noble 5x5x7.9. Those are SLA machines
Davinci 1.0 7.8 x 7.8 x 7.8 $559 PLA and ABS. Note that from everything I hear, those buildspaces are not always that big.
While Strong White Flexible materials can be printed up to 25 inches in length 21.6 inches in height and 12.9 iches in thickness.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

the big question is: what does one expect?

the "home"printers naturally can not do the same, as a professional mashine.
but, for instance, if one buys about ten of the excellent figures that shapeways offers, one has spent the money for a home-printer.

so, what does one want? about, let us say, twenty fine figures, that just need paint, or a printer with enough filaments, to print armies of figures?
a spool or cassette costs about 30$. one spool is for about 15 largescale figures (already counting in losses by prints gone bad)
so in the case of a davinci the printer plus six cassetes would cost about 800$
six cassettes is about 90 figures.
a figure for less than 9$... plus a printer to use for more things.

yes, these figures are not perfect. they need a lot of filing, scraping and finishing with epoxy or the green stuff before printing.
is that economically sound, with the additional time needed? do the fixed homeprints look as good as those from some artist selling via shapeways? ..... both answers have to be: No.

but...
... many of us have more time than money to spend.
... there is a certain satisfaction in things, one has made by oneself.

and, as WCRR152 mentioned, there are the bigger parts too.
i have some housefronts and a body for a tender made, that leave nothing more to wish for.

finally the own printer at home is just a toy. not needed, but desirable.
just like all those other hobby mashines, we collect in our train rooms.


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## WCRR152 (Dec 26, 2015)

I agree with what kormsen said, it is all about what you seem to be fit to your needs. For each of the parts for the cars I have built I have had to use the "chunk" rule that is print out a half to a quarter of the overall car and then glue of fasten the parts together with glue, bolts, etc. For me it works well ,but if you are looking for injection molded quality, it just won't be there. My philosophy on this is that with my own printer I can rapidly prototype new car designs and tweak these models as fast as I can go in and make cad revisions, I am willing to sacrifice the time and effort to assemble and sand and post process. I also agree with rkapuaala, if you are looking for full size models of an entire car the best idea is to go with Shapeways, for me it was just too expensive to design an entire car with Shapeways. 

WCRR 152


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just curious, does anyone have pictures of the cars they've made? I'm fascinated!

Robert


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Robert, the only car I've done is a flanger, with only the metal bits being 3D printed.
http://forums.mylargescale.com/21-rolling-stock/61946-v-t-flanger-build.html

Burl is really into it, 
http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/56602-ps-50-6-boxcar-eoc-device.html

And Richard has printed a couple of wonderful loco's, here's one of them:
http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/53786-3d-printed-baldwin-0-4-0-1-20-scale.html

Another loco by Peter:
http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/41554-3d-printed-mogul-4.html

Cliff


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Robert,
Like WCRR152, I have also taken the approach to 'do it myself' with my home printer.
Partly because I sent Shapeways a file to print, AND my money, and then they decided that it was unprintable and wouldn't give me my money back!
I ended up having to buy some product, and then wasn't very impressed with the quality anyway!
For the last 6 months, first with the use of a friend's printer, and since the beginning of the year with my own, I am trying to see if it is feasible to print a Pullman heavyweight car in 1/32 scale.
Nearly there, but still some more experimenting to do.
The longest part that I am printing will be 6 inches, so the roof and sides will be made up of five or six pieces glued together.
Yes, there are striations in the prints, as that's the way it works, but nothing that can't be covered up.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice work David!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

David,
That is a beautiful print. What printer are you using. BTW,,, I think I get models rejected about 50x a year and have always gotten my money back. Did you try contacting customer support? Customer support is about the only thing keeping me loyal to shapeways because I swear some of the things they reject aren't borderline thin walls when I send them out, but somehow when they make to preproduction there are thin walls on parts in the same file that are copies of other parts that aren't getting rejected.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I agree, the SW customer support has been excellent for me. You do have to abode by the rules for a given material, and resolve any issues their automated system points out. But once through that gate, they honor their word. So when anything comes back unsat, I make a fuss, send pics if needed. They either re-make at no cost (once I've fixed) and pay for the re-shipping, or offer me a credit if it's a complete no-go.

So, David, you should have a SW credit for what you spent, if you didn't get anything. Or did you eventually receive the parts?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Richard,
Thank you for the compliment.
I have the Makerbot Replicator2.
So far I am just amazed at how the whole thing works, and most satisfied.
I'll start a new thread when I get to the point that I have complete parts to show.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Cliff,
Thank you for your compliment too.
I did have a credit which I then had to use on buying 'something'.
I don't recall being offered a refund, but maybe I could have got one, but was really just interested in holding a couple of their parts to see the quality.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Just to confirm that I have been back through my old emails with Shapeways, which was in 2013, and I did find that there was the option for a complete refund mentioned in one of them.
I just wanted to make that clear.
regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

rdamurphy said:


> Just curious, does anyone have pictures of the cars they've made? I'm fascinated!
> 
> Robert


nothing finished yet. just some tests with variations of a tenderbody, i found in the net.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I think this is definitely one future direction of the hobby--people making their own stuff using 3D printing. Think of some unusual locomotive or rolling stock, where there's not enough interest for a production run by one of the manufacturers like LGB or USA trains. If there's someone with 3d modeling skills who is interested, it can be produced for less cost than a molded product--assuming you're willing to put in the time to do all the finish work yourself. So there's a real possibility that a locomotive you want that's not being commercially produced might still become available. 

I know that there's always the possibility of machining your own locomotives. But with a machined item, someone can share the drawings, but you have to have the skill to produce the item. (Note: I'm taking a machining class at the moment and realize just how unable I would be to produce some of the amazing projects that have been shared here) Since you can easily share a 3D file, and almost anyone can "run" a 3D printer, I can see this being an amazing opportunity. Of course, those of use interested in live steam will have to wait a while before live steamers can be printed 

I have used 3D hubs for a print. It was some screw couplings I modeled using Tinkercad and had done at a nearby printer (about 1/2 an hour away). Fortunately, the person I worked with was pretty patient and helpful, and he tweaked my model so it printed out fairly well. I suspect that 3D hubs is probably a hit-or-miss kind of thing; you could get someone really helpful like I did, or someone who just runs your print and sends it to you no matter how it came out.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

This is very interesting as most of what has been available thus far in 3D printing was in the smaller scales. And I think that it would be really much more useful in the larger scales because of the "niche market" aspect of our scales (wether it be 1/32 or 1/29th or the narrow gauge scales).

David your test parts are very promising as well as Marks work.

What types of plastics are available with these printers? Can they be bonded together like styreen? Are they stable, or do they warp with time? This is very exciting to see that parts of such size can be acheived, in any case.


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## WCRR152 (Dec 26, 2015)

I agree, the market for the live steam will be a ways off until 3D metal printing becomes mainstream and affordable, otherwise it won't be feasible, but for us electric guys I think we can already see that with the SW1500 model part of the OpenRailways project on thingiverse. I know I have printed a modified version of that locomotive and I have seen others do the same thing. Here are some pictures of my projects. The locomotive is a modified thingiverse design the caboose, ortner hopper and 60' flat car are of my own designs most of them are taken from smaller scale items in order to scale them up. The flat car and ortner hopper are 4 separate pieces glued together, the caboose is the 5 pieces.


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## Beddhist (Dec 17, 2013)

Last weekend we had a visitor with several items of NZR locos and rolling stock. https://www.gscalecentral.net/threa...n-the-whareora-glenbervie-branch-line.306725/










His Ja steamer even has printed drivers and gears and runs great (when the power pickups work...).

Regards,
Peter.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Love the flat car!

What I was actually considering was making small parts, for instance, grabs, brake gear, steel parts for wooden cars, and perhaps, just maybe, parts for Derrick OP and Pile Driver OB... Basic car construction would still be styrene and/or wood, but the unique parts of these cars makes it highly unlikely anyone will produce the parts or an entire kit for either one of them.

Robert


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

du-bousquetaire said:


> What types of plastics are available with these printers? Can they be bonded together like styreen? Are they stable, or do they warp with time? This is very exciting to see that parts of such size can be acheived, in any case.


Simon,
I 'think' that for the home market it is mainly ABS or PLA that is used.
I am using the PLA, which is Polylactic acid or polylactide, which is a biodegradable thermoplastic aliphatic polyester derived from renewable resources, such as corn starch.
This makes a pleasant material to print with as does not make a plastic smell, and is greenish.
I have found a suitable solvent, but still trying different ways of attaching the pieces.
I much prefer to use a screw, or a nut and bolt, to make sure things stay together.
I need to experiment with some painted pieces to make sure that they survive the suns heat and they they do not biodegrade instantly!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that info David, I didn't know the PLA was biodegradable. 

At least ABS can be easily solvent-bonded to itself, styrene and PVC.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

*Shapeways and Thin Walls*

So I've designed some detail parts (firecracker antenna and coupler lift bar bracket). Designed them in Sketchup at 1:1, then resized them to 1:29. Uploaded to Shapeways and being told the walls are to thin to print. 

Shapeways requires 0.7mm wall thickness. If I adjust the walls they'll be about twice as thick and not look scale proportionate. 

What I'm wondering is if anyone has used Shapeways "print it anyway" when the walls are smaller than 0.7mm? Success? 

I emailed Shapeways about it but they said parts could break or fall of the sprue during the cleanup process. Now is when I wonder if a home 3D printer would be best.

[URL="[/URL]


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Yes, I've used 'print anyway' for several figures that had thin walls. They came out fine. Shapeways is a bit too restrictive as far as I am concerned. They do really good prints, particularly the pricey materials but many of my models have been rejected. I've had to 'tweak' them quite a bit to get them to pass


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Martan said:


> Yes, I've used 'print anyway' for several figures that had thin walls. They came out fine. Shapeways is a bit too restrictive as far as I am concerned. They do really good prints, particularly the pricey materials but many of my models have been rejected. I've had to 'tweak' them quite a bit to get them to pass


Thanks Martan!

When you "tweak" them to pass are you just simply widening the walls to 0.7mm, or is there another trick I'm not aware of?

Also if you use the "Print Anyway" and it's successful will that give it the green check mark of approval?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Eric,

I see you have some pretty generous gaps between parts, and from parts to the main sprue; and that your main sprue is comparably wide. Since you're paying for both material volume and machine space (for SFP), have you experimented with reducing your sprues to their min (.7mm) and clearance gaps to their min (.5mm)? Might save some money.

Cliff


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Cliff-

Yup, thought about the spacing. Trying for my first run on these parts, so I made the sprues with what I see as common for kits. I wanted to make sure there's enough space for an X-acto knife to fit in between the part and sprue. Once I get the first run I'll make adjustments from there.

Gave the antennas long enough stub for mounting to the roof.


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

No, didn't get the approval, if you want others to be able to order them, you have to print them and have them sent to you. Or I think so, it's been a while since I had anything printed.

Mostly, I ignored the warnings. I'm doing figures so on some I had to remove their mouth insides and stitch up the mouth some.

I did these waitress ladies, one in 1/24, the other in 1/29, both had issues but came out ok. The smaller one didn't have the heels on her shoes but the larger one did. So there was some small issues in the print but not much. These are printed in the cheapest stuff, perhaps they would do better in the higher res materials...

http://martinsant.net/?page_id=3005


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I've used Pint anyway so many times it isn't funny. 99% of the time they print out fine, the other 1% range from being total disasters to annoying little ommisions of detail. Speaking of the first two images I would say instead of thickening them reduce the diameter a little so they are more like engravings instead of unsupported wires and then use print anyway because the manual checker will know what you are trying to do and reject it. The worse that will happen is that the little flanges will fall off when they clean them. But before you do that you need to change those supporting rods from .87 to 1mm take my word for it, those will not make it through. The other two images walls are really too thin. You will need to redesign it some how to make it a minimum .7mm .4 will be so brittle it will fall apart in your hands.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, and you could also choose Frosted Extreme detail for the top two images. That material is brittle so it shouldn't be used if you are expecting a lot of touching on those parts and they are only supported by those small rods.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Like several others on this forum I've had experience with community groups, Shapeways and people utilising the entry market printers. Here's my 2 cents to add to the mix.

There's a number of entry market 3d printers - no one of which is perfect. However, it gives people the chance to get experience with this emerging and rapidly accepted technology. This empowers a lot of us to add to the modelling world in new and brilliant ways.

Shapeways 
Pros:
Good support / always developing better ways
Lots of materials to pick from and expanding all the time
Opportunity to run your prints for sale to others, making some financial return to your skills.
Prototyping for molding and casting.
Cons:
Time taken for printoff and delivery sometimes (there is a huge lineup using this resource) - I live on the other side of the world (punches up prices).
Extremely fine details won't print.
Cost of materials can vary - don't go gold plated or platinum lol

Community hubs
Great way to network and develop new skills.
Open resource and usually free or low cost to public
Quality may vary depending on tech levels
Maybe not be local, or available outside of main cities

1. Try before you buy - use a friend's printer, community groups, look to what YOU need and can afford and use that as a stepping stone.
2. Don't give up - ever! We've all had mistakes in the R&D area. I've had some doozies, it's all part of the knowledge base.
3. Be prepared to work on an item til you are satisfied.
4. Know the limitations and work with them
5. Working to scale is great - sometimes you have make allowances for printing, durability, increases for strength and the ability to cast (resin or metals).
6. One of my rules of thumb is - does it look good from 3 feet away?

Hope my 2 cents helps.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice list of thinking points Scott.

My big one is, don't be afraid of mixed materials! For example, there's no aesthetic need to 3D print the elements that need to look and work like wood or shaft material, or that can be easily made with sheet stock or shapes from (say) Plastruct. Now, with PLA on a home machine, it might be easier to print the whole thing. But especially with Shapeways parts, one can use stock materials for those elements, 3D print the rest, and save some money.

Cliff


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly. Especially in Fn3, you can easily fabricate an entire freight car from strip wood/plastic, using available detail parts. Some parts are more obscure, though, and may not be available to purchase.

Robert


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Agreed. I've been using the new technologies to fabricate components that aren't commercially available. 

Most of the builds have primarily utilised timber, styrene, metal sheet, cast metal and then augmented by these components to complete my model. 

It's a great way to get the accuracy and look just right for a little outlay.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's one example of mixed media, a motorized ore hand car. The chassis is from an HO Bachmann davenport, the wood is cedar, rods are brass. And the frame, chassis cover and "ore" are 3DP from Shapeways. 










The 3d printed frame could have been a lot more detailed (e.g., rivets, overlapped joints, better hinges) for the same money, I just didn't think to add them at the time.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

David Leech said:


> Richard,
> Thank you for the compliment.
> I have the Makerbot Replicator2.
> So far I am just amazed at how the whole thing works, and most satisfied.
> ...


Which forum will you be posting your work? I'm looking forward to learning more about your methodology for making FDM prints look presentable.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

steamermeister said:


> Which forum will you be posting your work? I'm looking forward to learning more about your methodology for making FDM prints look presentable.


Sean,
I guess it will be in Rolling Stock, or maybe Model Making.
It will be a month or so before I get there.
Cheers,
David


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Definitely looking forward to it David. 3D printing may revive large scale modelling...

Robert


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Is there a machine that can grind unneeded plastic into reusable pellets for these 3D machines? Seems that at least in the beginning you will be wasting a lot of plastic while perfecting your products.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Most of the lower-end machines use spools, so it's not practical to re-use the plastic. I agree that there could be a lot of waste at first, but the spools aren't that expensive (around $30) and most large objects aren't printed "solid"--voids are left to reduce the amount of plastic used.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting topic - been looking at 3D printing myself, initially at the thought of doing small detail parts, *VERY interesting* seeing *complete cars & locomotives*  being done!  The info regarding Shapeways is interesting for printing larger items than could be done on home 3D printers. I've visited a couple of local "maker" groups involved in 3D priniting, but have bet to see one of the machines actually in operation (other than on video). What seems to be the most popular "consumer" 3D printer at the moment? I've also noticed Dremel has one out, wonder if anyone has had experience with it or know someone who does? 

*Tom Lapointe*


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

I've been looking at this one:

http://www.makergear.com/

Reasonable price, solid construction, good resolution.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's a thread where some of us discussed various lower-cost printers.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/61346-very-affordable-3d-printer.html


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