# weapons for layout photography



## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

Maybe this should go under the rant section.

Saturday I went to Greenville, Ind to an outdoor layout open house. I had been there in July for a previous open house and it was already pretty dark and I didn't get any good shots. So this time I went early.

When I got there I was really surprised how many people were there. In July, I was the only one walking around the layout. 

Being fall, the sun was dropping like a rock and if I was going to get any good shots, I needed to get cracking. The pikes were somewhat long so it took a while for the trains to get to where I wanted to shoot to add to the urgency. Here is the rub, all sorts of idiots in the way, rude and stupid idiots. And groups of little brats following the trains around not caring if someone was trying to get a picture. And like one time I was all set up for a shot and here comes some daddy A-hole with his camcorder following the train around and he about knocks me over (I was thinking about a knee to his face as he was bent down). And then another problem was some old lady with a walker standing around in a narrow path around the layout and she looked like a tempting tackling dummy in the situation.


Such rude people. The parents could have done something about their snots, but obviously they nor the kids knew about courtesy. 

So guys, this man has a few open houses a year. When I go next time, what weapons should I take? Electric cattle? Bear mace? Taser? How about the good ol Louisville Slugger?

I did get some shots, many just too dark. I overheard the owner saying that the layout was going to be in Garden Railways. I am not real happy with the shots as they were all taken with haste as well as in the act of dodging idiots. I do like some aspects of the layout, but like so many, no weathering, too many buildings and stuff, no freight loads, mixed scales, clutter. Wish he would hold open houses only for those that are real G railroaders or at least adults only that have some concept of manners.


Doug


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Doug, 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with almost everything. Most importantly, I STRONGLY disagree that anybody should hold open houses only for other "serious" modelers. All you're doing is saying that kids and newcomers are not welcome. I'll bet you've complained that the hobby can't attract new people, too, haven't you? You should be jumping for joy that parents, kids, even old ladies were interested in seeing some "toy trains". Now, if the same person wants to hold a separate open house for a smaller group of modelers as well, that's a different and probably very good idea. 

As for the photos, what makes you think you should have special rights to monopolize the railroad for your photography. Were you hired by the owner to photograph the trains? If so, he should not have done so during an open house. If you were there to photograph the open house, people should be included, not avoided. It sounds to me as though you wanted to set up your shots, carefully compose everything, wait for the train to be in the perfect position, and then you could have your perfect picture. Everybody else should just get out of your way. What if somebody else was there, wanting to do the same thing? Would you have used fists to decide who gets the shot? I would argue that you were just as rude and selfish as the people you're complaining about. If you want some good photos of the layout (odd, considering the complaints you have about it), I would suggest contacting the owner privately and setting up a time to come by when there aren't a bunch of low-lifes (I mean non modelers) in the way. 

Now, I will agree about the general rudeness of people these days. That's been thoroughly discussed here and pretty much everywhere else, so I won't go into it again. Still, I wanted to agree with at least part of what you said. 

Ken


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Doug, 
I guess they didn't know who you are! 
Eat more beans then you can put up a cloud to match your sweet personality.... 

When I took shots of the Tucson open houses some of my best shots included kids and their wonderment. 

"Such rude people. The parents could have done something about their snots," Methinks the kettle is calling the pot black... 'snots' is about the rudest name for a child I've heard in a long time! 

Too bad the layout didn't measure up to your refined standards... 

Don't ever get old, I have a feeling that people that know you will delight in kicking your walker! 

I say Bravo! to the elderly lady and her walker, at least she was out enjoying life! 

The best 'weapon' I use to get shots is a smile, they smile back and scoot out of the way. 

John


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Gee, ever thought of asking the host if you come early to take photos??


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Whoa! Somebody had a "bad hair day" for sure.







Must be a heck of a lotta fun at a party.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I understand that it's cathartic to vent ones frustrations, but you picked a really bad topic. As you've discovered, open houses and magazine-quality photographs are largely mutually exclusive concepts. But the fault doesn't lie with the behavior of those in attendance, it lies in the expectation that their behavior would be different than what it is given the environment. As a host of an open house, I rarely have the time to cater to an individual photographer's request unless there are few people there at that particular moment. If the back yard is full of people, you're on your own to fend for yourself, being cognizant of the environment around you and the realities it brings with it. If you'd like to come back later to get better photographs, by all means I'd be happy to arrange a time for you to do so when I can give you my undivided attention. But during an open house typically ain't it. Too many distractions. 

As the parent of a 2 and 5 year old, I can say with absolute authority that Mickey Mouse himself could be trying to get a photo of a passing train, and they'd be completely oblivious to his presence. Kids that age (and up to around 9 or 10) are typically wired to be completely focused on one thing. If they're following a train around a railroad (and that's precisely what kids that age _do_), they may be the kids of Miss Manners--they're still going to walk in front of anyone and everyone to follow that train. It's not a lack of parenting, it's just kids being kids. They're not miniature adults. Their brains work in very different ways than ours. As adults, we often tend to forget that unless being constantly reminded by it every night when we tell them not to dip their green beans into their milk. (But hey--it works with cookies. Why not let them experiment...) Bad parents? I can also speak with authority when I say that parents often walk on eggshells whenever their kids are within 50 feet of anything breakable--worried about how much it's going to cost to fix whatever it is that will invariably get broken. But--again--we're parents and they're kids. It's our job to nurture them so they _eventually grow into_ adults, not turn them into adults at age 5. They're curious about the world around them and learning as kids learn best--as we learned when we were their age. And I'm positive there were those who complained about how _our_ parents were raising _us_... 

As for the "daddy..." with the video camera, cut him a little slack. I've spent a career looking at life through a viewfinder. Even the most seasoned professionals still walk into lightposts from time to time. The answer to "didn't you see me???" while picking yourself off the ground after a collision is almost always "sorry, no." If it's not in front of the lens, we often _don't_ see it. (That's why we have reporters with us, to watch out for us and to point out things we may not be seeing--like people, lightposts, open manholes...) 

So, no. You're not going to get a whole lot of sympathy from me. Take what shots you can get that day, and smile broadly when you get a "winner" out of the bunch. Yeah, it's more of a challenge, but it's not impossible. I've made it something of a game whenever I go on tours. I know I can't do a thing about the people, so I can either include them in, or just shoot around them. I'm not Moses, and they're not the Red Sea. The sooner I come to terms with that reality, the sooner I can get on with shooting photographs and enjoying my visit. 

Later, 

K


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

Maybe I am just old fashion, believing people should have respect for others and also should have some control of their kids and also teach them to respect others and have some discipline. Seems to me when one sees that another is set up for a shot that you don't just walk right in and ruin it for them. But I will take all your advice and the next time I won't regard what others are trying to do, I'll just push my way in and get the shots I want like the rest of the animals. 

Doug


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Respect for others! What a hoot! 
In your rant you showed; idiots and stupid idiots, brats and a daddy A-hole, old lady w/ walker and snots a whole bunch of disrespect... 

Sorry I can't rustle up much sympathy for ya. Seems like a case of Instant Karma for you as you mingle with the rest of the animals. 

In self help circles is the phrase: If you spot it, you've got it. Meaning what you see in others, others see in you. Change begins with you. 
Try smiling, it's very disarming... 

Happy Rails, 

John


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

An open house is for people, not photography. Most visitors are willing to accept that, and either don't try to take photos, or settle for getting shots that are less than "magazine perfect". 

If you want to do serious photography of someone's layout, just ask them if you can set up a time to come by and shoot it privately. Most folks would be happy to accommodate you.


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

John, I was brought up to be courteous to others, like if you see someone trying to take a picture, you pause and allow them to get their shot, not just walk right on in and stand in the way. And in a crowded public setting, kids don't just run wild as that causes problems. I was taught things like that from a young age. I guess in our age of entitlement, you just dive in and grab all you can get and say to **** with everyone else. 

And I expect that this guy really wouldn't want to do a special showing for one guy wanting some good shots. I overheard a woman ask if she could bring a group of kids over for an outing and the guy told her that it takes he and some friends around 4 hrs to set up and a few to put it all away so special visits weren't too likely to happen. 

I think the "magazine perfect" concept here is going a bit far. When one can't get any good shots at all because the trains and layout shots are constantly blocked by kids and kid-like parents following the trains around, "magazine shots" are far from the goal of just getting a few good shots that record some ideas to possibly use in the future. 

I guess there is a difference between people that do outdoor model railroading and those that just have toy trains in their garden and a difference between people that go to open house to appreciate the work and those that come for a cheap outing with the kids and a place to air great granny out. Perhaps the toy trains in the garden go well with the cheap outing for the kids. 

This layout was pretty decent even though I didn't agree with everything. The owner of the house and layout bought the place from a landscaper that lived there and built it all except for some stuff the new owner added. The landscaper moved to a new place and built a big garage and did a big O layout in the upper level. I believe he still helps with the layout and may use it as advertisement for his business. The owner referred me to the landscaper for my questions. 

And not real sure of what the owner thought about all the kids and other rude folks. Heard him at one point say, "we've got more train followers". I guess as word gets around about the open house, it will just become more of a mad house.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

OPEN houses are just that... OPEN to everyone. Rug rats, ankle biters, ladies with walkers and motorized scooters, Dad's with cameras, "still" & "video... Take the shots you want or can. "You", not just you Doug, but anyone taking photos or enjoying the trains and layout, are also in someone elses way of enjoying the trains or layout as much as "they" are in yours. You responded to an invitation to the layout just like all of them. YOU are a geust just as much as them. Act as such. Be gracious that you got to see what you did and that you got to at least look at the layout even if you did not get some beautiful photographs you hoped for without any distractions. Kids? They came to play. If the owner allowed them and did not ask them to leave because they were being too un-ruly then you have to accept with them and all that implies. Some kids truly are rude and do not know how to behave and as Kevin said even if they do know how to behave when "toys" are presented a good share of the "rules" go out the window. They focus on one thing. Until something else comes along. I've taken my kids, now age 9 and 7, to some open houses and while they were not angels they were relatively well behaved. As Kevin said, they are kids and as such need to be able to explore boundaries, within reason. When I take them someplace I lay down ground rules ahead of time for them with reasonable consequences if those rules are violated. At an open house I would re-inforce that we are geasts at someones house and that we need to be "good". They understand that means no touching without asking. Runnign around desiganted to "allowable areas" and even then if I deem it inappropriate for the time or place I reign them back a little. If there are other kids there that are being worse it is tougher. At that point maybe it is time to leave or present another different opportunity to enjoy the situation beore thigns go sour. As a parent however I'm there to enjoy the open house WITH my kids within the limits of the host's rules. Beign courteous to others as well but standing off to the side the whole time I'm there so some one can film or take perfectly staged photographs is NOT what I went to do and NOT what I'd subject my kids to without knowing about it ahead of time and preparring for it. That would be boring for me and for them and would only lead to trouble. 

Chas


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Doug, 
I think most of us in the older crowd had similar upbringings. Times have changed. I was also told if I couldn't say something nice.... to be quiet. Wasn't much nice in your rant... Double Standard? 

Open houses are a great way to introduce Fine Scale to those with a Toy Train perception. In Tucson the tour was advetised many places that weren't exclusive to those who appreciate the difference... meaning the ToyTrain crowd got Wowed! Yet they brought that playfull follow the trains mentality, while you brought a camera. Sorry but you take your chances and you really don't get the right to complain. 
We need more people in this facet of Model Trains, to hopefully hold the prices steady. Railroads open to the 'commoners' can help! 

The 4 hour set up time could be a stock answer for for those that want to bring a gaggle of kids, while he might be more willing to accomdate a group of fellow modlers. Instead of politely asking, you ran with the assumption. 

I had to stop inviting my nephews to my layout because my brother in law (their Grampa) was no help controlling their desire to wreck my trains and laughed when their rocks on the track knocked wheels off a loco. 
Those kids are spoiled with cheap plastic toys that they break and are then given new ones. At this time they don't understand wanting to keep something for a lifetime. When they are older they will be invited back. I can't change them nor discipline them, so I adapted. 


Having migrated from The Purist On3 finescale to G $cale, I first tried to add all the details and my critters removed too much, so I simplified and to get the look of olde tyme RRing I went with the oddball G24, can't get much more Toy Train than that can ya? But I can make it look realistic and still have fun. I guess I'm somewhere bewteen your extremes... I would never invite you over to critique my pike, but I would if I thought you might enjoy it. 

John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

wow..Doug, your post speaks volumes.. 
if it was my open house I would have kicked out the most obviously rude person there..you. 

Scot


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Maybe I am just old fashion, believing people should have respect for others and also should have some control of their kids and also teach them to respect others and have some discipline. Seems to me when one sees that another is set up for a shot that you don't just walk right in and ruin it for them. But I will take all your advice and the next time I won't regard what others are trying to do, I'll just push my way in and get the shots I want like the rest of the animals. 

Something to consider... I grew up with a camera attached to my body, be it still or video. I was "reminded" on more than a few occasions as a youth to be more aware of others taking photos, and likewise, I often found myself wishing for a ray gun to zap people from my own pictures. (I finally got one--it's called "Photoshop"). So for probably 3/4ths of my life, courtesy to fellow photographers has been ingrained in me; doubly so once I joined the professional world where you just DO NOT get in front of someone else's shot. (Karma is one thing, but you're relying on your fellow photographers to warn you of danger if they see it. You don't play fair, they don't tell you about the truck that's about to hit you.) So that's my background. There's ZERO question that I understand courtesy to fellow photographers. But just yesterday I was out at the Colorado RR museum running my live steamer. There was a guy shooting video of my loco and others running on the track that day. He was using a large-ish professional-grade camera and tripod, so it wasn't like it was easy to miss. Still, because I was focused on enjoying watching my train go around, I probably walked through a half-dozen or more of his shots. I was paying attention to what was in front of me--trains running--and just didn't see him or his camera. If I--with my professional background--can be that oblivious to others with cameras when trains are present, think of people who (a) don't have that professional background and (b) are probably already overwhelmed by the newness of seeing trains running in the back yard. They're not _discourteous_, they're just _oblivious._ That comes from the environment, not upbringing. If your solution is to "just push your way in..." then by your actions you condone the very behavior you find reprehensible. Where does that leave you next time 'round? We all lead by example. I'd suggest--as John does--that the most effective "weapon" is a warm smile and polite "excuse me, but I'd love to get a photograph here if you don't mind." They'll very likely be apologetic (as I am when I accidentally get in the way of others' shots) and keep a better eye out for you and other photographers as they progress around the railroad. 

I guess there is a difference between people that do outdoor model railroading and those that just have toy trains in their garden and a difference between people that go to open house to appreciate the work and those that come for a cheap outing with the kids and a place to air great granny out. Perhaps the toy trains in the garden go well with the cheap outing for the kids. 

I'll agree with the first part of your proposition, but question the second part. There's definitely a difference between an "outdoor model railroad"--one that's built to a consistent scale with well-detailed scenes and a prominent theme--and a garden railroad where the trains are a kinetic feature to an existing garden. They're two entirely different philosophies. (Though I'd also argue that those who do trains outdoors--no matter what end of the "scale" spectrum they're on--enjoy many similarities as well.) I don't think there is any inherent difference between people who attend open houses. Each visitor has his/her own unique perspective, and there's no telling what anyone finds particularly appealing about any railroad. I've had "serious modelers" come view my railroad. While they could appreciate the work and research that went into the models, many were clueless about the work that goes into the garden. I've also had gardeners come over who I know couldn't begin to fully appreciate the modeling. But they all walked away enjoying themselves, feeding off of my enjoyment of my hobby, and being inspired by whatever it was that tickled their fancy. And _that's_ what unifies open house visitors. Regardless of their background, they're looking to enjoy themselves by viewing something that will hopefully inspire or invigorate them. And as a host, I feed off of their enjoyment. I don't care if they don't know it took me 5 months to build one passenger car. Those 5 months were a journey I took for my own enjoyment. They get to enjoy the destination as much as I do, and it may just inspire me to spend another 5 months on another car. 

Later, 

K


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

You know Doug,
I may not be as old as you (I'm only 63) but I was taught that if you wanted something special, that you should asked politely and you just might get it. If you came to my layout during an open house, I would hope you would be thoughful enough to come to me and explain what you were trying to do and I would organize things to give you the oportunity to get a couple three good photos. I won't be willing to upset the whole open house for one person, but I would try and help each person get some enjoyment out of the day. ANd if you were making a fuss like you have here, I would probably assume you had never been taught any maners and I would ask you to leave, that the open house wasn't organized just for you.
Bob


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

You guys are working hard to make me look like the bad guy. I didn't make any fuss at all at this guy's house. I mostly was trying to set up shots and eventually gave up and left. To me it seems obvious that if someone is trying to shoot a picture, then you pause and allow them to do it or you walk around (in the case of the old gal standing in the path, there was a wall on each side and there was no way around and she could have just sat down at one of the benches around the layout). And to follow the trains so nobody can get a shot without people in the shot is inconsiderate. Also to turn the brats loose and treat it like a playground at a daycare is also inconsiderate and a sign of poor parenting. 

And to try to say that somehow that I speak of them being rude shows that I am rude, well why not go ahead and say, "the smeller's the feller" or, "takes one to know one". They all make about as much sense, none. 

I didn't ask about coming to the house to get shots when nobody was there, but the landscaper that built the layout invited me to his house to see his O layout.Just a bit of a drive for such fun. 

Personally, I always try to be considerate of others and if I see that they are trying to get a picture, I don't ruin it for them. If you think that is proper behavior, society and your parents badly failed you. Maybe that is part of why our country is in such a mess. And while you are at it, turn up some thumping hip hop noise at 3:00 Am and declare that it is your right to do as you please. 

It does make me realize that I will never have an open house that is truly open. I don't want my home turned into a public playground and amusement center. I used to go to open houses related to fish pools and gardening and they didn't involve people gone wild.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)




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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, Doug,

From the sounds of your posts, you must be very self centered and think the world revolves around you. Do you realize that the other people were there to enjoy the open house also? Why should they be expected to move out of your way while you set up the perfect picture? 

I have little likds come to my house quite often and we are thrilled to have them running around chasing the trains. I actually give them a controller and let them go and sit back and have fun.

Sounds like you need to take a closer look at yourself. 

And please, if I ever have an open house, do not come.

John


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Sep 2011 11:11 AM 








Isn't that the truth! So far, every one of Doug's posts has said essentially the same thing - "I wanted photos, those other people were inconsiderate and should have accommodated me"

And yes, I realize you're not just talking about him, Greg. As each of us tries to point out the reasons why we consider Doug to be unreasonable, we're beating the same poor horse.


This is entertaining, but are we getting anywhere?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would say that any good that might have come from discussing this has already happened. My take is that no one's mind has changed. Even the topic title tells all. 

You have my meaning spot on Ken. 

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well... I'll have to stick up for him a bit. I understand his frustration.

The chances of recording a steam locomotive whistle are rare for me. The few times I have had that chance there is always some child screaming "WOOOO WOOOOO" while the train is blowing the whistle, or some adult bellowing "WOW! THAT IS ______ SURE SOME _____ _____ of a ______ whistle, ain't it?" (You think of the worst words you can and then fill in the blanks... No, no, those are not as bad as what he yelled, try again!).

It is even worse when they lean over to your microphone to make sure you get a good recording of their stupidity. I did have the satisfaction one time of seeing the fool escorted from the Midwest Old Settler's and Thresher's Reunion grounds for what he said while I was video taping there. (It is my understanding that he cursed the policeman in the process and also got a free ride downtown.







)

When recording (audio or video or even still photos) in a public (or even semi-public) venue, you have to learn how to subvert those that mess up (accidentally or deliberately) your plans. If you have seen my YouTube video "3 Locos attack the hill" you will see, what I think was, an adept sidestep on my part to get around two fellows that stopped right in front of me while I was video recording a train there. What you won't HEAR, are the children crying or screaming "Here comes the choo choo!" or the adults discussing their latest personal medical condition, or the woman giggling loudly on her cell phone. Nor will you see the fellow that got escorted off the grounds! Adept editing of the video took care of all that!

Sometimes people in the scene can be an enhancement, like the two little girls in the aforementioned video when they jump at the sound of the whistle. CUTE!

Othertimes, like when the fool sticks their face in front of the lens, sticks their tongue out and then makes an obscene hand jesture are just lucky I deliberately don't carry a gun when I am on an outting like these... I'd be on death row, otherwise... but at least there would be TWO less fools in the world when my sentence is carried out.


So, let Doug vent a bit. The world is full of inconsiderate fools and they are quite frustrating to everybody (but themselves).


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

wow. It's crap like this that makes the hobby look bad....


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this topic has run it's course...


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