# Is Aristo Craft going out of buisness?



## bf2468 (Jun 24, 2013)

I heard a rumor today that Aristo may be going out of business due to financial problems. If this if true is very sad news. I hope its not true so I posted this here to see if anyone in the know can confirm or deny it.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I have heard they have difficulty paying their staff at times and making ends meet. They are selling direct now I suspect to make a higher profit per item but this has effected retailers. Times are getting tough and I think you need to buy things while you can as keeping a large inventory of different stock items is no longer cost effective for retailer or manufacturer. Where we are all going is anyone's guess with the current economic situation in the world. 

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Given the dearth of available new stock or new offerings in LS it can sure feel like it. But I believe their O stuff is selling well, so I doubt they are going under ...at least not in that scale. 

It is conceivable that they could actually drop more LS product, or even LS altogether. Lionel did, if you look at ACs website at whats actually being offered compared to 5 or 6 years ago, whats left isnt very encouraging. You kinda wonder if what is being offered is just whats left.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Now what was that old adage? 
Grandfather starts it up, son builds it up and grandson...........









When we find out the real reason why the CREST brand has been hived off from AC, we will likely know the answer.


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

Aristocraft annoys me... everytime i want to buy something they dont have it... usa trains usually always has what i want... theres so much stuff from them in the past that i want to buy if they would just make it again? like the roadrailers... gp40s... 100 ton hoppers... mallet... and metal wheels????????


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## Chris_Haon (Dec 28, 2011)

Lewis posted on the Aristo forum that they are taking the revolution to the HO market so the spin off was to not label the revo as a g scale only product. The new Crest/ revolution website is still owned by Aristo. A simple Whois search confirms that.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Crest electronics was split off last time they almost went bankrupt, this is when they got the investor J.P. Morgan Partners .... not the US company, but an Asian one. 

Made sense then and now for similar reasons. 

What is strange is even during it's heyday, Aristo could not manage to keep parts in inventory... like wheels, couplers, track, etc. I once asked Charlie Ro Jr. how, since USAT and Aristo were made in the same factory, his quality was higher and he always had parts... he just grinned... 

Too bad Aristo never figured it out. 

Greg


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

If Aristo is really given up G scale and involved in HO scale, I thought they would move to the dead end quickly. The Athearn had developed two quality standards in their product lines. Their RTR basic line is mainly attract any new modeller which is in lower cost with good detailing. So, I couldn't think Aristo has any special release to attract any new modeller. If Aristo do new HO scale with full detailing and DCC equipped, the other HO famous brands have done already. I thought Aristo will face to very tough competition.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing good can come of a business when you have to depend on your competition to make and supply your product. Its well known that the Chinese take ownership of the engineering and molds of their customers.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

If they are direct sales only, then there is very very little actually on sale on the AC website, a survey of the site shows less than what the San Val store once held in stock. 

No steam engines, only 2 diesel offerings, no passenger cars, what rolling stock types are in stock have very limited roadnames, and we have no idea of how many numbers of these items are actually there, could be 100, could be 10, or just 1, to me, this is not an inventory list, its a remnants list. 

But they still have lots of eggliners...


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Bye Bye 1:29


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 18 Aug 2013 11:16 AM 
Bye Bye 1:29 



No way..

even if Aristo did go out of business (which at this point is 100% unfounded *rumor* only..)
there is no reason 1/29 would go away..
1/29 is too well established, 1/29 scale will easily survive Aristocraft, if Aristo wet away. (which at this point is 100% unfounded *rumor* only..)

Scot


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

One has to note that RMT is a totally separate company run by Nate Polk(I think I have the right son.) Crest was split off on paper with Lewis as the major principle, but others (JP Morgan China) had financial interest in Crest. Thus the status of AC is separate from RMT. It appears as though (rumor) Crest has another principle owner. Again, it status is separate from AC. 
AT the spring ECLST, Scott made it well known at the AC forum that he needed an investor willing to make a million dollar investment to see any new inventory this year. The inventory status was also very visible when there was no merchandise in the AC booth. Scott and Navin sitting in a stark naked booth to field questions. It would be very difficult for any wholesaler/retailer to survive a year without any inventory. Salaries and overhead have to be paid.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

In the crane and hoist industry, the manufacturers quite often shared a booth with one of their dealers at various trade shows, but when a manufacturer thumbs it's nose at the dealers, it's rather hard for them to find a dealer that is willing to share anything with a manufacturer that isn't 100% dedicated to the success of the dealers.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Same in the theme park industry. The back that one jabs today isn't the one piggie'd on tomorrow.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It never made any sense to me for them to go just strictly internet sales. I would imagine that most G scale train hobbyists are NOT online. Plus, how would a novice see any G scale train stuff, if it is not in a store and they don't have internet?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry it does make sense if you no longer have the inventory to fill those dealers orders. Going direct means you can only order what is on hand and listed on the website.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Well what ever it is, is a very sad day if a prolific company which did give us so much, may be in trouble. I hope they come through Ok.


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 18 Aug 2013 01:12 PM 
Same in the theme park industry. 

Talk about an industry almost as small as the G scale market!








(Though I'd argue there is far more backstabbing in the theme park industry!)


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The root of their trouble: CHINA Quality control is a moving target.. It is sad but in this hobby we don't have many choices when it comes to where out toys are made. It is ..a little better in live steam engines...but not so much in the trains we pull behind them.


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

Jerry, 
I totally agree with you> I am a touchy-feely kinda guy. I get all turned on at seeing the newbys at trade shows and dealers showrooms, whether it is trains or the newest gizmo for woodworking. Going to direct internet leaves me cold. But if you look at AC internet listing for rolling stock, it is inventory clearance of 5-10 yr old stock. other than the GP's. Items left over from initial shipment. Mostly onesy-twosys'. One comment at Springfield and ECLST by vendors when questioned about lack of AC merchandise was always---AVAILIBITY. Even with drop ship- AC had very little to choose from, meaning multiple calls to end up telling a customer it was not available.


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Stop by Aristo to see Navin a few weeks ago and the warehouse was emptier then I have ever saw it. Layout out front is gone and now shipping containers insight.


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

that was "no" shipping containers


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## Bill_johnson (Jul 16, 2008)

Hello guys, 
I haven't posted in a long time. 
One thing we all have to remember is that that the overall hobby business has been in a decline for at least two decades. 
The younger generations have not embraced traditional hobbies in general. 
I live in what is known as Greater Vancouver, B.C. Canada, pop. aproaching 1.5 million residents. 
There are no hobby stores left, they all went under. Even our newly expanded Wally Mart Supercenters no longer sell 
model kits, glue , paint or whatever! They did before. 
I have heard from a very reliable source, that Bachmann purchased the factory in China outright, and then effectively closed it, leaving Aristo, USA trains, and several other manufacturers, without. Sad. 
Hope things change, and soon! 
Cheers, Bill 
Lawsuits were filed for the manufactures to retain ther moulds, some were successfull.


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I always felt USA prices were a bit on the high side...If/when Aristo goes away I have a feeling we are going to be in for a shock. The demise of Aristo would leave us with one real 1:29 supplier and a few minor secondary ones.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bill_johnson on 18 Aug 2013 11:15 PM 
Hello guys, 
....
I have heard from a very reliable source, that Bachmann purchased the factory in China outright, and then effectively closed it, leaving Aristo, USA trains, and several other manufacturers, without. Sad. 
....
Cheers, Bill 
Lawsuits were filed for the manufactures to retain ther moulds, some were successfull. 
If this is true, it's a disaster then...even with the manufacturers retaining their molds. The loss of the skilled part of the workforce...the tool makers and the engineers...will be very difficult to reestablish.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 19 Aug 2013 11:01 AM 
Posted By Bill_johnson on 18 Aug 2013 11:15 PM 
Hello guys, 
....
I have heard from a very reliable source, that Bachmann purchased the factory in China outright, and then effectively closed it, leaving Aristo, USA trains, and several other manufacturers, without. Sad. 
....
Cheers, Bill 
Lawsuits were filed for the manufactures to retain ther moulds, some were successfull. 
If this is true, it's a disaster then...even with the manufacturers retaining their molds. The loss of the skilled part of the workforce...the tool makers and the engineers...will be very difficult to reestablish. 
Hmmm...makes me wonder, *IF* [/i](and only an IF) Aristo is forced to do an EPL style Big Hindenburg, what are the chances Sanda Kadar will be there waiting to buy up the assets and tooling ? 

Makes me think now if that wasn't Kanders strategy all along for shutting them out, Hmmmm...


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pterosaur on 19 Aug 2013 08:14 AM 
I always felt USA prices were a bit on the high side...If/when Aristo goes away I have a feeling we are going to be in for a shock. The demise of Aristo would leave us with one real 1:29 supplier and a few minor secondary ones. Depends on how Accuraft would react to the situation. Might spur them on to include more electric runs but they are a major player in 1:29 production (brass models at this point in time).


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I guess it's how you define "major player". Multiple diesel and steam offerings from USA and Aristo are rare not to mention the very large range of rolling stock. AML and Accucraft will have a long way to go to even come close to variety and output.


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

I am on the Yahoo Trains Registry and over there it is said that USA trains moved their production away from that factory. 

Anyway, I can not help but wonder with the announcement of the Bachmann Peter Witt, that if Aristo needs to sell and the mold work is at the factory that Bachmann now owns if they might sweep up the Aristo G line if Aristo sells it out. If memory serves did not Bachmann and Aristocraft have some sort of strategic alliance with the Class 66? 

I would love to see AML make more, especially the long ago announced GP60/60M but I am sure they are treading very carefully even though the PS2 hopper and Bethgon seem to be doing well, it is a large jump to me from a car to a locomotive.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Bill_johnson on 18 Aug 2013 11:15 PM 
Hello guys, 
I live in what is known as Greater Vancouver, B.C. Canada, pop. aproaching 1.5 million residents. 
There are no hobby stores left, they all went under. Even our newly expanded Wally Mart Supercenters no longer sell 
model kits, glue , paint or whatever! They did before. 
Cheers, Bill 
Bill,
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.
Yes, there are a few less than there used to be, but there is:
Central Hobbies
Burnaby Hobbies
Phils Hobby Hut
Imperial Hobbies
Art Knapps for G scale
and if you include Langley there's RC Pit Stop, and C & R's Hobbies
and in Abbotsford there is One Stop Hobbies
I can 'normally' find whatever I need at one of these stores.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Maybe that is why Bachmann has just introduced their first 1/29 item the peter witt trolley looks great trainworld is taking pre-orders Jack


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Bill_johnson on 18 Aug 2013 11:15 PM 
Hello guys, 
I haven't posted in a long time. 
One thing we all have to remember is that that the overall hobby business has been in a decline for at least two decades. 
The younger generations have not embraced traditional hobbies in general. 
I live in what is known as Greater Vancouver, B.C. Canada, pop. aproaching 1.5 million residents. 
There are no hobby stores left, they all went under. Even our newly expanded Wally Mart Supercenters no longer sell 
model kits, glue , paint or whatever! They did before. 
I have heard from a very reliable source, that Bachmann purchased the factory in China outright, and then effectively closed it, leaving Aristo, USA trains, and several other manufacturers, without. Sad. 
Hope things change, and soon! 
Cheers, Bill 
Lawsuits were filed for the manufactures to retain ther moulds, some were successfull. 
Ummm.....yes, sort of. Long ago....Sanda Kan was sold to JP Morgan Associates (no relation).
It was then Kader who bought Sanda Kan when JP went kaput.
Yes, they stopped making stuff for many outfits, but we are talking 5 years ago.
Yes, Maerklin had to fight the PRC comrades to get the tooling back that they owned....one person involved told me the Chin...ese kept coming up with "brokers" that were owed monies. Finally got the stuff back...all of it.

Kader owns Bachmann. Bachmann didn't buy any factories in China. But.....Kader now owns the tooling held by Sanda Kan.
If you think for one minute that the tooling for the small market of G is owned by the US companies...well, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Aristo will not go away.
What you most likely will see is "Aristo by *****". 
Look to who holds the tooling.
Like the old saying, follow the money.
It isn't hard to figure out.
Aristo and USA were not left out...they were never sent denial of product letters.
I have been told there is a lot of product. Two containers full.
Once this gets sorted, you will have your 1:29 Aristo stuff.
1:29 won't go away.

If you want real conspiracy theory, look at Bachmann's latest announcement.
Then ask, after all these years, why come out with 1:29 product now....in the middle of the Aristo rumours.

Direct sales. Followed their RMT practices. $100 item permanent 50% off. You wait for another 30-40% sale. Why not advertise at $50? Odd marketing....gullible consumers who believe these things really cost $100 and that they are getting a "deal" at $50.

So.....all one has to do is know who to ask....and the information is out there. Most of it cannot be discussed..yet. At least publicly.

TOC


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

TOC, 

Always nice to see you posting on MLS! 

Best, 
TJ


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

After reading Daves post i can't help but think we are about to go thru another one of these:










Trouble is that this metaphor is almost exclusively in reference to that big German thingofadebacle , so maybe a new metaphor is needed, maybe:


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,
You just wake up from a long nap? I have been hearing things from more than one source about AML expanding more into 1/29. Know anything about that?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

What you most likely will see is "Aristo by *****". 

So... 

Aristo by USAT? nahhh 
Aristo by Lionel? nahhh 
Aristo by MTH? nahhh 
Aristo by Crest? nahhh 
Aristo by Bachmann? mmm... could be, rabbit...could be... 
Aristo by AML? 
Aristo by Piko? 
Aristo by Simba Dickie? 
Aristo by Walthers? 

No end to the choices!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Vic- depends on how the faithful react, or whether another SugarDaddy of the type that Sol Kramer was shows up for bailing purposes. 
There are variables, just as there were last time. Last time it was all set to go.....elsewhere when Sol sold LifeLike and proceeded to bail. 
Did you know Sol Kramer and his partner founded Sanda Kan? 
One thing about the explosion you inferred....we went through bankruptcies, several if I recall, foamers interfering.....and now that it is all said and done, we have no product this year at all. 
You notice there was no, as in zero Maerklin/LGB advertisements in GR last issue? 
I wonder who isn't advertising at all in this issue? 
Problem with all of this is those pesky variables...then posts that claim Bachmann bought the factory and quit making anything. 
You read it on the Internet, it must be true, right? 
French Models. 

There was a whole bunch of chatter until just before the nmra convention in Atlanta. Then it all stopped. Dead. 
Last time I saw that was involving some K something or other. 

We know who holds the tooling, we suspect who owns it, now we just wait for the negotiations to sort out. 

You know, I was told once, back just after the SD-45 came out.....that I could pick up the phone, call Sanda Kan, tell them I wanted to import 1:29 scale SD-45's. I was told the questions would be, how many, what road name, and what brand name do you want on the box and the undercarriage? 
True? 
Never tried it to find out. 
But, interesting nonetheless. 
TOC


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 20 Aug 2013 04:08 PM 
What you most likely will see is "Aristo by *****". 

So... 

Aristo by USAT? nahhh 
Aristo by Lionel? nahhh 
Aristo by MTH? nahhh 
Aristo by Crest? nahhh 
Aristo by Bachmann? mmm... could be, rabbit...could be... 
Aristo by AML? 
Aristo by Piko? 
Aristo by Simba Dickie? 
Aristo by Walthers? 

No end to the choices! 
I'm not going there...but the chatter indicates it's one of them.

Now, think for a minute. What company has never done 1:29 before? At least, not on purpose? What better way to grease the skids than to come out now with 1:29?

I don't know...you tell me.

TOC


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

From back in 2008...a marriage "made in heaven" alright...wonder if he still believes that today: 

Dear All, 

Sanda Kan, our OEM maker, was sold yesterday to Kader, who owns Bachmann among many other primarily real estate companies. Sanda Kan was sold previously on a leveraged buyout to JP Morgan who did the usual by firing the expensive, experienced staff, closing facilities and extending payment times to parts suppliers. 

The marriage of the two largest train producers in the world is made in heaven and will allow Sanda Kan to restore itself to a premier producer of model trains. At this moment, both operations will be kept separate, but with a common ownership. Mr. W.S. Ting, who ran Sanda Kan from the beginning, has come back and I'm sure some of his original team will too. 

Sanda Kan makes for Lionel, Atlas, Lifelike, Walthers, Brawa, Hornby and a host of some 50 other model train companies. Their capabilities are astounding and will soon return to that status under the partnership with Kader. Kader's owners are dedicated to the model train industry, unlike a pure financial play, so the focus is back on trains, rather than numbers. 

It's a positive move and bodes well for the model train industry and for Aristo-Craft. It will take several months for the newer production to reach the market place, but we have put many new changes into place during my recent visit to the factory. 

All the best, 
Lewis Polk


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

hope this link works this is from AC and the selling of the warehouse http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=20672


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting to note that Piko sales in N/A have increased 30% in the last year...so not everyone is pointing the blame at the consumer market... 

The way I read it the Polkspeak in that link above about the warehouse does nothing to preclude a sale of the molds/train production to...whoever...


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"This post is copyright Polks Model Craft Hobbies. It may not be reproduced in whole are in part without the prior written approval of Lewis or Scott Polk."

Whoops!


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, if we can truly believe the Polks, this is not good news for those looking for new product. We can only hope that AML and Piko will bring out some new locomotives and frt cars. 

As for me, my money is on Bachmann taking over the 1/29th market. With or without Aristo's molds.


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Guy's 

Go to Aristo's site and read Tates post dated 8/20 13 

Chuck


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Chuck 
Read above I have a link to that post


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

RMT has, in fact, been a good source of income. Most folks know that. Gee...I wonder who spread that rumour? 
New address in 2014, eh? 
Should I guess? 

These tidbits are always good to copy and save. Compare them to the landscape in, oh, a year. 
Funniest was the six wheel power blocks. Came out before the SD-45. "Our new patented drive sips power!" The DAY the actual locomotive hit the streets, that got changed.....the "sips power" bit went away, and it was "patent pending". 
How many reasons did he give over the years for 1:29 again? 

Fun reading.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I guess they just have to cut back on some things...

Andrew


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Garratt on 20 Aug 2013 08:03 PM 
I guess they just have to cut back on some things...

Andrew 












That image of mine really gets around!
(I photoshopped that probably 10 years ago..)

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Whats funny about the shortened C-liner, is that Aristocraft has actually done that! 
but with the Alco RS3 model.. 

The "prototype" of the "Lil Critter" 










(also photoshopped!  
Scot


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I saw your name there Scot after I posted. It didn't take you long to bust me!









Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, went over there, they are really worked up. 

Funny thing, the more things that seems maybe nothing and maybe part of a bigger picture... those things vehemently denied... hmm... 

I hope they don't try to unload those 2 containers coming in at Navin's house ha ha! 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I couldn't find anything at the Aristo website regarding this subject. 
Does anyone have a link please?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tony, the link is above, and now also below.
It's a good read.

AristoCraft Forum Post - Today

Andrew


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 
TOC


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Didja click on the Next Thread button and read all the alcolades from all the True Believers"? (link to today above) 
Seems that threads like ours are BS and 'rooomers' (sic)..... 

John


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Andrew. 
I am now using Firefox instead of IE and didn't notice the link, as the browser is set to only show links when the cursor hovers over them.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Garratt on 20 Aug 2013 10:33 PM 
Tony, the link is above, and now also below.
It's a good read.

AristoCraft Forum Post - Today

Andrew 


There ya go. Long live Aristo Craft...


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

After reading all the post from that link, I sure glad I put my boots on before sloshing through all that kool-aid.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

"This has all happened before, and it will all happen again"

Sacred Scrolls of Kobal, Book of Pythia


The basic problem still remains, they dont have "inventory" they have "remnants" and unless they get new product on the shelves, and soon, they are not going to last in their current form.

Another question is just who really owns the tooling? In the childrens toy world its not uncommon that the company selling a product doesnt actually own the molds or tooling but has contracted with a manufacturer for a product, the mfr then creates the molds and tooling and runs the production with the seller getting a license to market and sell that product under their own name. How else do you expect Wally World and Toys-R-Us to be chucked to the rafters with cheap "Made In China" toys, all from dozens of different companies? 

The upshot though is that the seller doesnt actually own the tooling, thats still held by the MFR and they retain the rights to then either sell them under their own name or more commonly re-license them to another manufacturer, which explains how certain toys never ever die, they just get recast over and over under a new name (I'm not kidding here, there is still stuff based on old Marx toy molds from the 50's-60's still in production). Copyrights can be worked around, often easily, by changing some details or aspects of production, which is what I believe happened with Newqida.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This rumor is not a problem for me.


I buy used stuff.

95 % of my R R is stuff everybody didn't want any more or sold to buy something else.

So if you guys, in a mass panic, decide to dump your Aristo stuff cheap Let me know

Yup I put my cowboys boots on, the real tall ones, as I waded around this thread like Randy did. 


JJ


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh well.

Most of my Aristo is so old that the boxes have the REA manufacturers label on them! I mainly have the "Sierra" style passenger cars. Once they stopped offering the "Delton Classics," my interest waned.

I still hope they fare well, but I don't have much interest, personally, as a customer.

Yours,
David Meashey


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 21 Aug 2013 09:32 AM
This rumor is not a problem for me.

I buy used stuff.

95 % of my R R is stuff everybody didn't want any more or sold to buy something else.

So if you guys, in a mass panic, decide to dump your Aristo stuff cheap Let me know

Yup I put my cowboys boots on, the real tall ones, as I waded around this thread like Randy did. 


JJ 



I buy mostly used stuff too..
but yes it is a problem, because used stuff has to start out as new stuff! 
less new equals less used..so its a problem foreveryone..

And why would anyone dump their Aristo trains "in a panic"?
that makes no sense..
If anything, people would be *more* likely to hold on to their Aristo trains, because there wont be any more..

So if Aristo did go out of business, it would only hurt the "used market", not help it..
because less new equals less used in the future,
and less new equals less people selling what they already have..

Scot


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The layout is gone for one simple reason ........ it contributed nothing ........ and took time and money to maintain. 

Geez. Is that a put-down of all LS-ers or what? 
Oh, well. 

The warehouse is for sale as of 01SEP13, as a more appropriately-sized facility is sought. 

Like Navin's Garage? 

Good Lord, Lewis. Better not to say anything at all. 


Today it was “rumoured” that a one million dollar investment had been made in AristoCraft and that would bring with it new ownership 

Boy....that's a new one....but since YOU brought it up, not anybody else......need to look into that a bit, eh? 
Why would anyone "invest" when they are just going to be "new owners"? 

Maybe things are done differently in Joisey. 

That entire thread is such a mix of old and new, stuff known and stuff he made up it seems....like I said, save it and look at the landscape next year. 

TOC 

(once again, modified format......)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

So, let's recap....or, how does Stanley say it....let's list the concensus.... 

No stock. 
Warehouse empty. 
Crest website now shows Navin's house as the address for all Crest products. 
Warehouse for sale in 11 days. 
Outdoor railroad ripped out. 
The market has changed in the last 5 years. 
We are in a good financial position. 
We should have one container in 2-3 days. 
Another container in November. 
Anyone who says different is a barbarian. 
We are not doing the ECLSTS but fear not, somebody else....may. 
Oh, and we need to once again throw in the JP Morgan Associates BS just to confuse the issue.... 
Scott has been blamed for the demise of local hobby shops. But wait: 
85% of the retailers have quit buying Aristo trains........why was that again? 
Lewis retired to Flori-duh and left Scott in charge....but Lewis is back holding press conferences with an employee.....TATE. 
What did I miss again? 
Oh, yeah, advertiser's copies of GR are out....how many Aristo ads are there? 
TOC


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"Oh, yeah, advertiser's copies of GR are out....how many Aristo ads are there?" 
TOC 

I'm curious Dave..............how many are there? THAT might be the "final straw".


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Do you get GR? If so, I'm going to let it be a surprise. 
How did I come to be called The Old Curmudgeon again? 
TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's an interesting line from one of the contributors to Aristo's thread (pointed out by Totalwrecker John): 

"Anyone who invents rumors about or speculates on the demise of Aristo-Craft is threatening you and me with significant financial harm because we need and depend on Aristo-Craft to take care of our stuff for the rest of our lives." 

From what I've seen, "our" thread has been all about concern over Aristo's health, not hope that it would fail. Was there some other cause for such a high level of rhetoric?

I'm with JJ though, all my stuff is (sometimes very) used, and 1:24-ish. Fascinating thread though.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

True. Health of the company. I have said, on this and another forum, the Aristo brand is not going to go away. 
These folks who think Aristo is going to support them for the rest of their lives.....I wonder what bumper sticker they have on their car? 

See the bit in my "recap" about "barbarians"? 
Apparently, we're all "barbarians". 
TOC


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 20 Aug 2013 10:38 PM 
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 
TOC


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Give that man a Kewpie Doll! 

TOC


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

OK now this is getting scary, as I can clearly remember eerily similar things being said about what rubbish any rumors were and how great things at EPL were, right before they did the big flame out. 

No one wants Aristo to go away, ****, half my stuff has there power blocks under them. But one ignores the obvious to their own peril. 

"Its like deja-vu all over again" Yogi Berra


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Vic- Those who lived through that EPL nightmare are on the phone regularly laughing their collective.....behinds off comparing that to this. 
Remember the scene in Animal House where the guy is standing, yelling "ALL IS WELL! ALL IS WELL!" as the crowd rushes and flattens him? 
Aristo won't go away. 
Thumbs to fingertips, cross yer legs...."OMMMMMMMMMMM.....OMMMMMMMMMM". 
Selling the warehouse and moving to a more proper sized building....Navin's garage? 

Oh, this is so freaking funny. 

TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, with Hobby Lobby digging in against certain new legal mandates, maybe this is the opportunity for a government healing of issues in model railroading such as we've been discussing, via the repurposing of the 500 HL stores now at risk...

[later edit] 

Sorry, that was insensitive...

For the record, and speaking as the newbie I am, I really like my Aristo stock -- as I'm sure others do. Though I did buy most of it used, my main passenger train (for example) still looks new and beautiful. Springs in the trucks, detailed furnishings, nice lighting, all that. 

For me, as someone finally getting into the hobby, it's like I've shown up to the dance after all the cute girls have left. I'm dismayed in seeing the prices skyrocket, and all the work going overseas. So I would hate to see another manufacturer go out of business, even though I don't do 1:29. 

Cliff


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

Not to worry, we will have more product available than one can shake a stick at.. TATE states that in the next 2 months they will have 2 full containers arriving with stock. 40ft. containers contain 2800-3000cu ft. that translates roughly to 4500 pieces of rolling stock and 5400 boxes of 2 ft. track. Revo receivers are packaged such that they are 200 per cu ft. so 10ft will contain 2000 receivers. This volume would cost in excess of $600K. CASH. This is different than what Scott said at the ECLST show. ""Other than the ore car we have no new products ready for production It takes $200-300k for engineering and making moulds. We do not have currently have that kind of money available"". ""There may be small shipments this year but that has not been worked. "" to get a reasonable amount of inventory, I need a $1M investor. If anyone knows someone who would be willing to make that kind of investment please contact me."" 

By the way a 75k facility sounds large but take away the office space, shipping and utility space you are down to less than 40K of warehouse. Peter Mills, a retailer of Aristro had more space than that.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The 2 containers are going on Semi rigs and there will be parking lot sales across the country.... 
What doesn't sell goes to Navin's garage. Guess who got paid in parts... 

Grey Geezer's Rumor Mongering Servie, Ltd


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

In my old school math, where 2+2=4 ( not that modern c..p....) 

How long does it take to get a boat across the pond from China to the US.? not that long anymore,....? 

One container now!! will this calm the herds...? 

but the other one is interesting to me. ...not till NOV., eh! ..means it may not even be paid for yet.... not loaded in a container - not on a boat... too soon...?? 

Lots of stuff to filter down thru the slots before "WE SEE" any product on the shelves here... 

Dirk


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

They will be timing things for the Christmas sales to get a quicker return for their capital investment. It is a dilemma, to keep prices down they have to manufacture quantity but it becomes dead money if not turned over quickly. In times of slower sales it becomes a strategy of what items produce the quickest return on investment. The expensive and more unique items may go to the wayside for a while. It's a bread and butter situation. 

Andrew


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Of course.. if the container gets held up [for ANY reason] and doesn't make it to the NEW distribution point... no stuff for the holiday season. I think this happened to Bachmann once and it really fouled up their cash flow plan. JIT management sometimes does not work if CBP or other folks get in the way. 

Back around 1990 the old Customs folks held up a shipment of Precision Scale Co brass that had 1:24 scale tank cars. The Govies opened every box, removed every car, and looked inside for drugs. They could have weighed the boxes of a few that had NO drugs to get an average... then weighed the rest... but they didn't. Held up the entire shipment for almost three weeks. Imagine what that would do to a container arriving after November 15. 

Just sayin'


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## bf2468 (Jun 24, 2013)

I guess that's one advantage of made in USA.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

what is a business? 

When is one ''in business '' or going ''out of business''....? 

When one is 'in business'',... but has little or nothing to sell, is one really in business? 

I cant' BUY,.... box cars - locos - throttles 
--.... what they have I don't want....it is sold out or out of stock.... 

not much of a business here.... 

still lacks a working business model for success! who would want to 'donate' a million bucks for the cause, and when would they see it returned? IF it ever came back...? 

Dirk


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

By the way a 75k facility sounds large but take away the office space, shipping and utility space you are down to less than 40K of warehouse. Peter Mills, a retailer of Aristro had more space than that. 
Where are you getting the 75K square foot number? Aristo's message states their warehouse is 27K square feet, and at best, 75% full in the best of times. Ridge Road Station--while around 40K square feet for the entire store (approx. 200' square)--had a rather small "warehouse" portion. Well stocked, but if it was more than 10 - 15% of the total floorspace of the store, I'd be surprised. That, and large scale trains--when I moved away from Rochester in 2002--were an ever-decreasing part of his business, being relegated to one "room" in the store. Probably half of the store at that time was Christmas stuff. (Really _cool_ Christmas stuff!) 

As for the topic at hand, it's not something I would worry about. The past 5 - 6 years have been difficult on most all businesses, but especially those who survive on discretionary income. TOC mentions the lack of Aristo's advertising in GR with this issue. Advertising in GR is down significantly from where it was 5 years ago as businesses have closed or significantly pulled back their advertising as a way to save money. The big discounters aren't buying 6-page ads anymore. Pretty much everyone's cut back on advertising. It's a natural part of the cycle. 

I can't remotely predict what the future holds for the specific individuals. They appear to have a plan, and we'll see how it plays out. If history has taught us anything, though, it's that so long as there's a demand, the products will continue. Ultimately, that's the bottom line. 

Later, 

K


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 21 Aug 2013 11:25 AM 
The layout is gone for one simple reason ........ it contributed nothing ........ and took time and money to maintain. 

Geez. Is that a put-down of all LS-ers or what? 
Oh, well. 

The warehouse is for sale as of 01SEP13, as a more appropriately-sized facility is sought. 

Like Navin's Garage? 

Good Lord, Lewis. Better not to say anything at all. 


Today it was “rumoured” that a one million dollar investment had been made in AristoCraft and that would bring with it new ownership 

Boy....that's a new one....but since YOU brought it up, not anybody else......need to look into that a bit, eh? 
Why would anyone "invest" when they are just going to be "new owners"? 

Maybe things are done differently in Joisey. 

That entire thread is such a mix of old and new, stuff known and stuff he made up it seems....like I said, save it and look at the landscape next year. 

TOC 

(once again, modified format......) 


An outdoor layout in Irvington NJ. Im shocked the rails never got stolen. Not exactly the place to visit or run trains outside. Especially with the crime rate. I wouldn't keep an outdoor layout either. You have to wear body armor just to maintain it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the point about the outdoor layout was testing.... lord knows the stuff was not tested in China... witness the batch of Dash 9's where the socket was wired wrong and would not work with a Revo. 

Greg


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Aug 2013 07:25 AM 
I think the point about the outdoor layout was testing.... lord knows the stuff was not tested in China... witness the batch of Dash 9's where the socket was wired wrong and would not work with a Revo. 

Greg 


Haha I know what the point was, part of me is adding some humor to it but in all honesty, who would want to step foot outside to test a train in Irvington. Its not exactly a nice neighborhood. For those that know Irvington they know what Imean lol


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By snowshoe on 22 Aug 2013 07:37 AM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Aug 2013 07:25 AM 
I think the point about the outdoor layout was testing.... lord knows the stuff was not tested in China... witness the batch of Dash 9's where the socket was wired wrong and would not work with a Revo. 

Greg 


Haha I know what the point was, part of me is adding some humor to it but in all honesty, who would want to step foot outside to test a train in Irvington. Its not exactly a nice neighborhood. For those that know Irvington they know what Imean lol 


I Google-Earthed their location, Holy Moly! and I thought San Val had been in a sketchy area. If they had gone any lower rent, they'd be subterranean. Still, probably not worse than some parts of L.A.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Shawn, 

I know what you mean about the rough neighborhood - common to many older large populated areas, including Oakland here in California, but If I recall correctly, I think Aristo's layout is / was located in an atrium type surround contained within their building's 4 walls. 

-Ted


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Ted 
I thank you are thinking usa's layout, aristo's was outside


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, 
I think it was outside. 

See the empty green space, put this into google maps: 40.718449, -74.223101 

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Aug 2013 10:40 AM 
No, 
I think it was outside. 

See the empty green space, put this into google maps: 40.718449, -74.223101 

Greg 
'On the other side of the tracks'. So to speak...

Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can still see some of the posts that held the track on Google maps


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 22 Aug 2013 09:02 AM 
Posted By snowshoe on 22 Aug 2013 07:37 AM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Aug 2013 07:25 AM 
I think the point about the outdoor layout was testing.... lord knows the stuff was not tested in China... witness the batch of Dash 9's where the socket was wired wrong and would not work with a Revo. 

Greg 


Haha I know what the point was, part of me is adding some humor to it but in all honesty, who would want to step foot outside to test a train in Irvington. Its not exactly a nice neighborhood. For those that know Irvington they know what Imean lol 


I Google-Earthed their location, Holy Moly! and I thought San Val had been in a sketchy area. If they had gone any lower rent, they'd be subterranean. Still, probably not worse than some parts of L.A.












Vic,

Whoa! San Val was in Brentwood compared to this!!!


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## Russell Rutalj (Dec 7, 2010)

If this is true , how many companies are left ?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg... watched the video (posted in 2008), then tried to go to howmodeltrainsaremade.com (coming soon). In the industry, we might call this "vaporware."  Either that, or it didn't last very long. Once a site is built, domain names and hosting are relatively cheap, so I suspect it was never even built.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, even though web sites are inexpensive and domain names too, often inexperienced people don't buy them or the right ones... it would have been simple to buy the name and just point to the main aristo site. 

Our company bought about 17 domain names that were "catchy" and pointed them all to our main page. 

Next time we talk I show you an even more hilarious use of a domain name in the train world. 

Regards, Greg


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

http://www.railclamp.com/index.php#!/~/product/category=5610005&id=23715560 

Link above talks about the layout Aristo built in NJ. Polk states it was for testing in the first paragraph. (2 cents).


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Not vaporware. At least part of it was made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opNZXKYmO1A


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

In support of your link, Paul, the DVD was definitely produced also as I have a copy of it.

Ed


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

They didn't need a garden layout, what they needed was an equivalent to EPLs famous torture track layout. Its shown in a LGB book and subjected all engines and rolling stock to the most extreme track layout conditions so they could engineer better products.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

True, not the greatest area of Irvington (was a 'telephone man' out of the Nye Ave garage years ago) but their warehouse/office was way back in an Industrial Area of sorts. I don't even think the local people knew it existed, and yes the layout was there, last I saw it was about 2 years ago when I went to pick up 8' tubes of Al track. On the opposite corner of the entrance to the Industrial area was "Slick's", You couldn't miss that. Nick jr


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the vaporware term was in reference to www.howmodeltrainsaremade.com not the DVD ... 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

boy, howtrainsaremade.com is a very interesting website.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

For us new guys, what was the "EPL disaster" sometimes alluded to? Something to do with LGB, correct?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ernst Paul Lehmann, EPL, also know as LGB. 
They went...bankrupt. Bought by venture capitalists who went bankrupt. In receivership form many years, fending off attempts by some companies who thought it worth ten cents on the dollar (or so I've been told), finally sold to Michael Siever of Simba Dickie. 
Now after sale of company, ads in GR for Maerklin and LGB stopped last issue, looks like US "prototype" manufacture has either stopped or been severely curtailed. 
Walthers is the US Distributor, now that there is basically no US stuff, wonder how long that will last. 
In a nutshell. 
TOC


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

The Wiki entry - Ernst Paul Lehmann.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

OK, thanks TOC.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By **** Habilis on 23 Aug 2013 02:08 PM 
The Wiki entry - Ernst Paul Lehmann. Got it, thanks. 
Funny, when I did my initial searches, all I got were ref's to Emerson Lake and Palmer...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, ... the music to work on trains by!!!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

That's my problem, -------- 

NO music ,.... 

................................. anymore. darn! 

Dirk


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 23 Aug 2013 02:31 PM 
Posted By **** Habilis on 23 Aug 2013 02:08 PM 
The Wiki entry - Ernst Paul Lehmann. Got it, thanks. 
Funny, when I did my initial searches, all I got were ref's to Emerson Lake and Palmer... 




Good thing you didn't google "LGB"!

Without adding the word "trains", you get some pretty disturbing results.


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I was at the office a couple of times. Definitely buried in the industrial park. The time I took my wife and daughter I got yelled at (by the wife!) but nothing happened to us. 
LAO


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By CliffyJ on 23 Aug 2013 02:31 PM 
Posted By **** Habilis on 23 Aug 2013 02:08 PM 
The Wiki entry - Ernst Paul Lehmann. Got it, thanks. 
Funny, when I did my initial searches, all I got were ref's to Emerson Lake and Palmer... 




Cliffy, 

What ever you do, don't search 'LGB' with a 'T' on the end (trains?). Your wife may walk in on you.

Andrew


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Yak! My puter turned itself off!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

You mean the T in LGBT doesn't stand for Trains ????


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I always thought it was the Foaming Battle Cry...."Let's Go Broke Together". 
No?


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

Posted By CliffyJ on 23 Aug 2013 02:31 PM 
Posted By **** Habilis on 23 Aug 2013 02:08 PM 
The Wiki entry - Ernst Paul Lehmann. Got it, thanks. 
Funny, when I did my initial searches, all I got were ref's to Emerson Lake and Palmer... 

What A Lucky Man he was...


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I see MTH has released the 2013 gauge one catalog. Looks like the passenger cars that have become hard to find are back.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably limited quantity, should pre-order if they have the road names you want.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The site has links that show when the stuff is available. 

I also see that AML has a web site... and RLD, etc... 

What does MTH have to do with this thread? 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

NOTHING.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 04 Sep 2013 04:48 PM 
NOTHING. 









Its not the destination, its the journey


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I was answering Greg's question in the previous post. I hope your roller coaster doesn't derail like this thread. Chuck


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry I posted, this thread was DEAD and I should have left it that way. I just thought one struggeling G scale manufacturer showing some signs of life again was a good sign for our hobby in general.. Guess NOT.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 04 Sep 2013 05:53 PM 
Sorry I posted, this thread was DEAD and I should have left it that way. I just thought one struggeling G scale manufacturer showing some signs of life again was a good sign for our hobby in general.. Guess NOT. I think you were right on target, Jeff. 

But speaking for myself, when I saw that this thread had a new hit on it, my evil twin said "Cool, fire it up baby!" But then I saw that you were talking about MTH, it was like, I dunno... Totally proper and all that, but my evil twin had to go back in the box...


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## jwalls110 (Dec 12, 2012)

Jeff don;t sweat it. 

G-man takes his name seriously, he police's several forums making sure nobody talks out of turn or beats a dead horse except him. 

Ignore it and post.


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