# Ad60 Complete!



## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Finally got the AD60 on the track fully complete. General observations:

1. gets to steam quickly
2. cylinders clear quickly and self starts without having to use the exhaust/drain valve
3. blower is either on or off - it would be nice to have a more sensitive control
4. pulled 12 USA trains slightly over-scale coal hoppers easily
5. slows noticeably through through the 3M radius curves

Video feature on my camera seems INOP, but I managed to snatch some pictures.....


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

My, Oh My.... What a gorgeous locomotive. Absolutely magnificent.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

WOOOOOOW, GORGEOUS!!! Very very nice!!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Like to see that run!


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert 

Pleased to see you have your AD60 running well. Your findings regarding operation mirror my own including slowing on tight curves. Oil flow was a little hit & miss to start but now seems OK if you don't fill the two lubricators too full.

But watch out this is a powerful beast and fast if it gets away without the driver able to close the regulator! 'Holding a tiger by the tail' comes to mind

I am still getting the feel of my AD60 but it is becoming freer every time I run it.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your AD60.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Magnificent. Is there anything at Diamondhead that this might run on? I'ld love to see one run. 

Best regards, Mike


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Been there and seen AD60 running at DH!


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Carol Paule has had her's at DH running the last 3 years.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

You mean like this...


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Steamtom 1 always comes through................Thanks.


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

I find it amazing that Tom has a system that allows him to recover a film shot five years ago. 

We all owe Tom a debt of gratitude for his fleshing out of many of the MLS submissions with his photos and videos. Great contribution to the hobby.

Jerry Reshew


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By AsterUK on 03 Aug 2009 08:53 AM 
Robert 

Pleased to see you have your AD60 running well. Your findings regarding operation mirror my own including slowing on tight curves. Oil flow was a little hit & miss to start but now seems OK if you don't fill the two lubricators too full.

But watch out this is a powerful beast and fast if it gets away without the driver able to close the regulator! 'Holding a tiger by the tail' comes to mind

I am still getting the feel of my AD60 but it is becoming freer every time I run it.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your AD60.

Andrew, it is a powerful beast and will cheerfully pull 20 USA trains 1:29 scale 70 ton coal hoppers at a scale 90MPH on a straight track. I've been thinking about radio control which I know is an anathema to you die hards









One challenge I'm having is balancing the fuel flow to the burners - initially I found the burners would cut out randomly and I concluded that the bleed pipe for the chicken feed system was too low not allowing enough alcohol into the sump. I've raised the fuel tank slightly (2mm) and now have the opposite problem - it steams too freely - so still have work to do.

Robert


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert

I haven't experienced any fuel flow to the burner problems that I am aware of. I should be interested to know what transpires with your AD60.

As far a power is concerned I have a feeling that eventually the AD60 will be in the same league as the Big Boy and Allegheny. The AD60 is showing plenty of grip as well as power so the time for some comparative trials may soon be upon us!

Andrew


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

As regards *fuel flow problems *with the AD60, here's something odd I noticed on my 1994-model:
all "good" runs (= plenty of steam) took place when I ran anti-clockwise, i.e. on
oval layouts with left-hand curves, troubles with steaming often started when I ran clockwise,
i.e. on ovals with right-hand curves ?!?
Now, my garden layout is small, has tight curves (9 feet 6 inches or 2,75 m). 
There was one very strange incident when I couldn't even re-light the

fire. However, when I lifted out the fuel tank, spirit was flowing happily! The
loco had stalled in a right-hand curve!
When the rear engine with the spirit tank swivels out in a right-hand
curve, the spirit sump comes very close to the steam supply tube from the
superheater to the rear engine. This tube was non-insulated, and I suppose that
it heated up the sump, thus causing some sort of "vapour lock"(?)
I still don't fully understand the magic involved, however, after insulating this tube

steaming has much improved. 

Michael


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Michael on 04 Aug 2009 03:43 AM 

As regards *fuel flow problems *with the AD60, here's something odd I noticed on my 1994-model:
all "good" runs (= plenty of steam) took place when I ran anti-clockwise, i.e. on
oval layouts with left-hand curves, troubles with steaming often started when I ran clockwise,
... 
Michael, this is no magic, just the result of the Coriolis force;-)... AD60 is supposed to run in the Southern Hemisphere!! Circular motion in OZ is amplified when moving counter-clockwise: Coriolis_effect Just run the beast in the direction for which it was designed;-)))) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael, that is a fascinating solution to the problem - only if it is true







. (I did check the calendar to see if it was 1st April - and it isn't).

I have been running my example on Left Hand curves so as soon as the rain stops, I'll try it the other way round!


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Zubi,

Brilliant! This definitely explains, why Garratts were far more successful in the Southern Hemisphere (Africa, Australia) than in the North









Michael


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Michael,
My recent build one steamed poorly on the first run.. I found that 5 strips of ceramic sheet in the wick boxes worked fine but the 6 called in the instructions where too tightly packed , the other thing is to cut more fuel channels in the strips to get the meths rigth through the wicks..


I was running anti clockwise on the track.

Gordon.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Andrew,
Rain is good! it saves Australian bacon on the cricket pitch !


Gordon.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Zubi - this is the obvious explanation for the oft-noted lack of turntables in Australia and the rest of the southern hemisphere. Since the Garratt works best when 'circulating' in one direction, it obviated the need to turn the loco at the end of the run, since it would operate just as efficiently in the opposite direction without the necessity of turning. 

Indeed, here in rurall Cambridgdshire, as we huddle around the fire in our mud huts for warmth in the cool evenings, the talk is of little else, particularly discussions over the small scale operations derived from the basic formula. Only last evening our druid, a wise old bird now approaching some forty winters, remarked to me with his usual chuckle, 'Y'know, boy,' he noted with a wry grin, 'in non-vector terms: at a given rate of rotation of the observer, the magnitude of the Coriolis acceleration of the object is proportional to the velocity of the object and also to the sine of the angle between the direction of movement of the object and the axis of rotation.' We all had a quiet chuckle over THAT one, you can be certain.

His grand-daughter, now almost five, bless 'er, piped in with this gem, 'The vector formula for the magnitude and direction of the Coriolis acceleration is







- she almost shouted!! Now THAT caused some mirth around the fire, I can tell you!!! Old Glep the ploughman, just returned from his labours in the upper forty, muttered something about 'Well, I dunno, but as I was plodding along behind my 'orse Spot this afternoon, as dusk was falling, it seemed to me that both here and below it is clearly apparent that *v* is the velocity of the particle in the rotating system, and *Ω* is the angular velocity vector which has magnitude equal to the rotation rate ω and is directed along the axis of rotation of the rotating reference frame, and the *×* symbol represents the cross product operator.'


Well, he had a point, we all agreed, especially when you consider that, putting it all together, the equation may be multiplied by the mass of the relevant object to produce the *Coriolis force*:







. 

The _Coriolis effect_ is the behavior added by the _Coriolis acceleration_. The formula implies that the Coriolis acceleration is perpendicular both to the direction of the velocity of the moving mass and to the frame's rotation axis. So in particular:
[*]if the velocity is parallel to the rotation axis, the Coriolis acceleration is zero. [*]if the velocity is straight inward to the axis, the acceleration is in the direction of local rotation. [*]if the velocity is straight outward from the axis, the acceleration is against the direction of local rotation. [*]if the velocity is in the direction of local rotation, the acceleration is outward from the axis. [*]if the velocity is against the direction of local rotation, the acceleration is inward to the axis. [/list] 

The vector cross product can be evaluated as the determinant of a matrix: [hoots of mirth from the womenfolk, a-loomin' and a'weavin' in the gloomy edges of the hut, until one of them, bolder that the rest, raised her voice and shouted hoarsely, 'Well, I dunno 'bout you lot, but *I* can make a matrix out of that as easy as pie!' And did so, to the general amusement of the hut-dwellers, as we sucked on a chicken bone...







'specially where the vectors _*i*_, _*j*_, _*k*_ are unit vectors in the _x_, _y_ and _z_ directions.

Well and all, I'm that glad we sorted THAT one out, eh?

Best

tac
http://www.ovgrs.com/


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Dear Tac, 

I continue to marvel at the wisdom dispensed. Here I'd thought the writing on the men's room wall had to do with the price of a pint, not the peculiarities of meths-fired Garratt being dependent upon their location vis-a-vis the equator. Could we please borrow your Druid to sort out the mathematics of Health Care Reform and the Economic Stimulus package? Some of us are still a bit uncertain. 

Bewitched, bedazzled, and bewildered, Mike


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Terry, my point entirely! Thanks for the presentation. But we are not done yet. For anyone to calculate the Coriolis force on their AD60, given their position (latitude only), track radius and the mass of the AD60, it would be handy to apply the formula to the situation of a rotating Earth and incorporate latitude explicitly in the matrix (by transforming the matrix to the angular representation). Many thanks and best wishes, Zubi 
PS interesting observation about the turntables, this could have easily been rectified by introducing counter-clockwise vinyl and of course designing an appropriate counter-clockwise operating turntable. Shame Aster did not think of this when they were considering their `language' turntable invention;-)))...


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Taperpin on 05 Aug 2009 02:48 AM 
Michael,
My recent build one steamed poorly on the first run.. I found that 5 strips of ceramic sheet in the wick boxes worked fine but the 6 called in the instructions where too tightly packed , the other thing is to cut more fuel channels in the strips to get the meths rigth through the wicks..


I was running anti clockwise on the track.

Gordon.


This was also my experience. Ceramic brick might be a good substitute - the Aster 232U1 has a very similar burner to the AD60 and the version I bought has ceramic brick but I'm not sure whether this was an original feature or an 'after-market' installation.

How much run time are you getting - I'm at about 15 minutes maximum and the tank seems small for an engine of this type.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac, when I was at druid school back in the mists of time, coriolis force was second only to the mysteries of the precession of a spinning top in the hierarchy of misery that my professor could inflict.

I remember it as though it was yesterday "Consider a cannon placed on a rotating table. Derive the formula to describe the path of the cannon ball etc etc......"

Todays Harry Potter wanabees need only consult youtube.


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

A typical run with my 1994-garratt is in the 20 - 25 min range, not counting the heating up-phase, which goes quickly anyway.
I am aware that a too tight packing of wicks is counterproductive, so I hope I got at least that one right.
I once tried stainless wire mesh as packing material - a **** to light that stuff, I had to heat up the whole burner with a micro torch from underneath until enough spirit had vaporized to self-ignite. I just folded the mesh like paper in a motorcycle air filter, maybe there's a better way to do it. However, no significant difference in steaming, so I returned to ceramic sheets.

Michael

P.S. by the way: 2,75 m is equivalent to 9 feet, not 9 feet 6 inches, so my radius is even smaller


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Robert, 
run time is between 35-40 minutes..15 minutes is way too short..I would be going through the timing on both engnes or looking for steam leaks.. the fuel tank is very big on this model another possibilty is Smokebox /front end leaks drawing air .is it lifting the Safeties continually when running ? 

 Gordon.


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

One customer in the UK has fitted a stainless steel 'brick arch' which he claims works well. As it stands at the moment, heat from the burner is drawn straighht to the flue tubes without imparting any heat to the inside of the firebox. A 'brick arch' will ensure that the flames go backwards onto the firebox walls before being sucked down the tubes. This should give greater economy and more steam.

I will try to get a drawing of the brick arch arrangement.

Has anyone tried an AD60 with coal yet?


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Andrew. 
The Arch idea is absolutely right..any Loco style firebox using alcohol will be much more economical with one fitted. 
get the flame sweeping over the side walls and roof etc. About 1/3 of the firebox length seems about right, you dont want the flame impinging on the dry rear wall. 

Gordon.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

My apologies to Mr. Foley. It has been suggested that my last post could have been intended as a critique of his complex explanations concerning the operation of Coriolis force and/or of the narrative form which he used to express it. Far from it -- I am impressed by both the style and the content. Because my mathematics was more theoretical than practical, I take on faith that these calculations make sense to those who understand them. Indeed, Mr. Foley has demonstrated his competence frequently both here and elsewhere. 

I intended simply to express amazement at the complexities stemming from the superficially simplistic operation of toys operated by fire and water. Having neither Mr. Foley's narrative skills nor his scientific expertise, it is clear that I failed in this intent. 

I remain, bewitched, bedazzled, and bewildered, Mike (Be-mildewed?)


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, I cannot speak for Terry, Ig or the Crows... But one thing is certain, and that is that this entire Coriolis argument is just a joke;-)... While Coriolis force plays a major role in the formation of cyclones, on the scale of an AD60 circling around a 10ft radius track this force is entirely negligible. Best, Zubi


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Simpson - having read your post, I can assure you that a rope will not be needed. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain your post, and please accept MY apologies for any concerns you may have had over my PM response.

Sadly, because of the nature of the OS on my PC, I do not either see or post emoticons - they all appear as little black squares to me. Perhaps we should, in future, use the old-fashioned fomr of key-strokes to replicat them and such unfortunate mis-understandings as mine woiuld be obviated. :=)

That having been said, I have yet to see a better visual explanation of the effect than the one posted by Mr Vaporo, for which I thank him gratefully.

Best

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Zubi - that's odd, I calculated a figure of 3x10 to the minus 5 Dynes per Metre, based on the overall length of the steam ways. 

This compares favourably with a water head of 12cm NTP [the average depth of water in a handbasin] going down a standard washroom plughole at a rate of 0.2mps.

For all intents and purposes this miniscule figure can be ignored by all except the extremely finicky among us, like you and me.

Best wishes

tac, ig and the crows
www.ovgrs.org

l


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 06 Aug 2009 08:49 AM 
Mr Simpson - having read your post, I can assure you that a rope will not be needed. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain your post, and please accept MY apologies for any concerns you may have had over my PM response.

Sadly, because of the nature of the OS on my PC, I do not either see or post emoticons - they all appear as little black squares to me. Perhaps we should, in future, use the old-fashioned fomr of key-strokes to replicat them and such unfortunate mis-understandings as mine woiuld be obviated. :=)

That having been said, I have yet to see a better visual explanation of the effect than the one posted by Mr Vaporo, for which I thank him gratefully.

Best

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/



Mr. tacfoley! Now you've done gone and insulted a couple of folk...







... One, is a Mr. "zephyra", who I am sure is a fine individual, and the other is me, who goes by the non-distinguished moniker of "Semper Vaporo", which has been foreshortened by some here to "Vap", "Semper" and "Semp". (As long as no one calls me "Shemp", he was one of the Three Stooges and when I wanted to be come the 4th, I was told I lacked the intellegence to join the troup.







)

It was this fine individual "zephyra" that posted the YouTube video explaining these God designed forces of the universe, not I. And, although I still don't understand it (the forces, that is), he should be the one to be given grateful credit for the intellegent addition to the conversation.









The insult to me is quite a minor one and as such will not be held against you







. I have been working very hard at staying out of this discussion even though I have had many a stoopyd thought about it and have resisted the impulse to expose my insipidity (beyond what I have already done in other odd threads/discussions on this fine forum of finicky folk). To drag my on-line persona into this without my complicity (i.e.: I didn't post anything at all) is to cause me to have to correct the error and thus expose my inability to think of anything useful (or otherwise) to add to this discussion of scientific principles.

I apologize profusely to you







if I have confused you into thinking I might have been the one to add something useful here because of any of my comments in other posts on MLS (or elsewhere).


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Oops... I just realized that you said you cannot see the emoteicons... thus I need to describe the ones I just used... the first black square you see


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REST OF MY POST???!???!! Who ate it? It was brilliant prose!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Try it again!

The first black square you see is


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

WHO IS EATING MY PROSE!!!!!

WHERE IS IT GOING! AAAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! 

STOP IT!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I GIVE UP! Hey tac. of you want to know what the smelly face icons are, ask someone else... this system just won't let me explain them!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

No I don't give up!!!! I have now typed this in using NotePad and will copy and paste to the edit form and see what happens!!!!


The first black square you see, in the middle of first sentence of the 1st paragraph (between the elipses) is a smelly face with tears galore.


The second pair at the end of the 1st paragraph are a wilted flower.


The one at the end of the 2nd paragraph is a smelly face with cool sunglasses (think, "Joe Cool" of "Peanuts" fame).


The rest of them, at the end of the first sentence of the 3rd paragraph, the two near the beginning of the sentence of the last paragraph and at the end of the total missive, are all (non-wilted) flowers.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

HA! I guess I showed this here computer who is


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Messires Vaporo and Zephyra - sorry. 

I'm outa here before I make any more enemies. :=( 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac, no offense taken whatsoever - quite the opposite - I enjoy the wild extrapolation of physical principles which is why I enjoyed Douglas Adam's books so much. (What I'd give for a Babelfish or a "Point of View" gun).

As an ex-pat Brit living in the US, I've also leaned that humo(u)r doesn't always translate and it can be quite embarrassing to making an outrageous claim that you think is obvioulsy a joke only to find the audience think you are dead serious.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By AsterUK on 06 Aug 2009 03:56 AM 
One customer in the UK has fitted a stainless steel 'brick arch' which he claims works well. As it stands at the moment, heat from the burner is drawn straighht to the flue tubes without imparting any heat to the inside of the firebox. A 'brick arch' will ensure that the flames go backwards onto the firebox walls before being sucked down the tubes. This should give greater economy and more steam.

I will try to get a drawing of the brick arch arrangement.

Has anyone tried an AD60 with coal yet?


I'd like to see a drawing of the "brick" arch as it's not obvious to me how this would fit given that the top of the burners is above the level of the flue tubes.


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