# Problem with Accucraft brass rail



## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to know if anyone else has had this problem.
I have been using code 250 brass rail from various sources and had no problem.
I recently bought some from Accucraft and started using it.
The color is slightly brighter than the others. When I started spiking the rail the base cracked easily instead of bending.










When trying to bend rail for wheel holders on my switches it easily fractured and the edges looked like porcelain.










It seems that they are using a different, very brittle alloy.

Thankls,

TOM


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom

This is not news. It has been reported here on MLS as a problem almost since the day Accucraft started selling code 250 rail and track. The "brass" is mostly zinc and so is extremely brittle. A test that was conducted about three or four years ago involved using a high temperature torch to attempt to melt a small piece of Sunset Valley and one from Accucraft. The SVRR rail became discolored under high heat, the Accucraft turned to a bunch of "grey goo" and made a puddle on the fire brick.

You can fracture the base of the rail just by putting a rail clamp on it and tightening the screws.

The importer has been told repeatedly of this problem. Customers want CHEAP TRACK, instead of high quality brass or NS... this is what they get.

The parrot is dead.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Some people have reported the plastic ties degrading quickly when used outdoors too.

Andrew


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

"Wheel holders".....?


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Fr.Fred said:


> "Wheel holders".....?


Sorry. I ment check rails.

I won't buy any more Accucraft rail.

TOM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dr Rivet said:


> ... Customers want CHEAP TRACK, instead of high quality brass or NS... this is what they get...


Absolutely, customers want "cheap track." The cost of track is often considered one of the top reasons people don't get involved in the hobby. At last check, the AMS track was just over $3/foot. Comparable track with a more workable alloy of brass rail was nearly twice that. The question is, when do you "need" to pay for what Jim terms "high quality?"

My AMS track has been in the ground for 10 years. I've yet to have a lick of trouble with it because I'm not asking it to do anything outside of what it's designed to do. It withstands dramatic temperature swings, full sun, feet of snow, being covered in ice, kids' and dogs' feet (and adults'), and still is every bit up to the task of providing a reliable track upon which my trains run. 

Sure, if I start hammering and twisting it, it's gonna break. It's a brass alloy on the brittle end of the spectrum. But just as I'd not use a brittle steel for a leaf spring, why would I use a brittle rail for something that needs to be malleable? If you're going to be machining or working the rail for switches, use rail of an alloy suited to that kind of working. Spend the money where you need to, but save it where you can.

Later,

K


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Kevin

Are you using code 250 or code 332?


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Dr Rivet said:


> Kevin
> 
> Are you using code 250 or code 332?


As stated in the original post - code 250.

TOM


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Methinks Kevin is East Broad Top - whose post makes no mention of the code rail he is using.

While Jim is asking which code he is using - implying the code of Accucraft rail is relevant to the failures described by Tom.

***

I inferred the rail is sold loose ... anything other than sectional track ought to withstand bending or spiking, or at least come with a disclaimer.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jim, code 250. See this month's GR cover. 

We use the same stuff on the live steam loops out at the Colorado RR Museum without any troubles. Here, too, we're not using it to build switches, we're using it simply as flex track. It's certainly given me no reason to think twice about using it. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the bottom line here is the expectation that the rail is not brittle.

This is the first time I have ever seen this in the hobby, so while the "quality" of the rail most likely has been driven by low cost, I thank Tom for bringing this to OUR attention, after all shouldn't we be here to help each other, rather than unilaterally pimp manufacturers' products?


Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I think the bottom line here is the expectation that the rail is not brittle.


For me, the expectation is that the rail holds up to trains running on it, the effects of weather, pets, ill-placed feet, and other environmental factors common to the garden. I could care less about how "hard" the rail is, so long as it does the job expected of it. It's track. Its intended purpose is pretty basic. 

There's nothing at all wrong with pointing out the fact that the rail may be on the brittle end of the spectrum and what may happen if you try to work it too much. It's certainly good information for everyone to know. 

However, it's important (for me, at least) to clarify that such attributes do not affect its ability to do that which is typically asked of it. Yes, it's "cheap track." It's something the hobby needs, and it does its job very well.

Later,

K


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I haven't had any issues with my AMS flex code 250 track. I only use one power connection for 200 ft. of track running DCC. I use 5 ft and 8 ft lengths. Not sure what materials are used for the rail but seems to transfer electricity very well. 

I've spiked a fair share of the rail on bridges and trestles with no breakage or chipping. I did have a couple chip at the rail clamp connections when I moved a few large sections of track to adjust the curve. But I was putting a fair amount of torque on those connections when I moved them. I quickly learned to hold multiple 5 & 8 ft. sections on there side to reduce the torque at the rail clamps when moving them  I was too lazy to disconnect all the clamps. 

Someone mentioned the ties, but no issues there either. Been outside for 5 years now in the mile high sun of Colorado and the ties are as flexible as when I put them in, but slightly faded from the new ones I just bought. As Tom showed, the track may not be good for doing sharp bends for rail guards but overall I'd recommend it as a good track value. And I like the code 250 height, even my LGB loco (deeper flanges) has no issue. And I don't even have to use a rail bender for my curves, sweet! I'm in the process of putting in 200 ft more this year.

-Jim


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

*update*

Representative from Accucraft just called me. Rail was apparently very old stock. They said that they would replace it when a new run becomes available.
Will let you know what happens.
TOM


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, not sure who you talked with, but the Accucraft eStore shows "in stock". Why don't they provide you replacement from their inventory? Why wait? Or is the stuff "in stock" all old stuff?

http://www.accucraftestore.com/index.php?productID=486

-Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That would seem to be the ticket... old stock in stock.

Kevin, I agree only expect from the rail what is asked. BUT asking the rail not to break when spiked, or bent a bit for guard rails is NOT unreasonable.

So, don't make guard rails, and don't hand spike your track! ;-)

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, fair enough, but to fully evaluate the situation, we need to look at Tom's techniques for bending and spiking rail. I use the same AMS code 250 rail when I build bridges and switches on my current railroad, but have not had any of the failures Tom illustrates. If you accept that the rail is the same, the logical conclusion is that there's something in the technique which allows me to have success where Tom has had failures. 

For instance, in the photo of the rail he's bending for guard rails, there's no notch in the base of the rail where he wanted to initiate the bend. I always file a notch in the base of the rail, as it increases the accuracy and sharpness of the bend when compared to not doing so. Like an expansion crack in a sidewalk, it "tells" the rail where to bend. If you look at the failure, it appears it "tore" because the web and head of the rail bent, but the base didn't. A notch in the rail would very likely have prevented that. 

In terms of spiking the rail, I always pre-drill the holes in the ties as it keeps them from splitting. The upshot from that extra step is that I need only apply a little bit of pressure from a pair of pliers to put the spikes in place. There's no hammering involved, so there's no blunt force which might cause that kind of failure. 

These are techniques I've always used. They're not born out of a concern for "brittle" rail. (The first rail material I worked with was aluminum, after all.) I would assume Tom's techniques to be a little more strenuous on the rail than mine, hence his results as opposed to mine. Again, it goes back to knowing the qualities of the material you're working with, and working within its confines. 

Having said all that, it appears Accucraft is of the opinion that Tom's results are the product of a bad batch of rail. If the replacement rail he gets yields better results with the same techniques, then the discussion about overall quality of the product in general gets replaced by a discussion about _consistency_ of the product over time. If not, then we can take a closer comparison of Tom's techniques versus mine, and perhaps come up with recommendations for success with this "cheap track." 

Later,

K


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

East Broad Top said:


> Greg, fair enough, but to fully evaluate the situation, we need to look at Tom's techniques for bending and spiking rail. I use the same AMS code 250 rail when I build bridges and switches on my current railroad, but have not had any of the failures Tom illustrates. If you accept that the rail is the same, the logical conclusion is that there's something in the technique which allows me to have success where Tom has had failures.
> 
> For instance, in the photo of the rail he's bending for guard rails, there's no notch in the base of the rail where he wanted to initiate the bend. I always file a notch in the base of the rail, as it increases the accuracy and sharpness of the bend when compared to not doing so. Like an expansion crack in a sidewalk, it "tells" the rail where to bend. If you look at the failure, it appears it "tore" because the web and head of the rail bent, but the base didn't. A notch in the rail would very likely have prevented that.
> 
> ...


Hello K,

I appreciate your comments but here my opinion.

I have worked brass rails for over 40 years. I have never had these problems with any other rail including LGB, PIKO, gauge 1 rails in Austria and more recently Sunset Valley Railroads 250 code.

When I told the gentleman from Accucraft that the rails were delivered in a metal pipe (labelled AMS) he immediately said that these had been in the warehouse for over 8 years. I can only hypothesise that the composition of these older charges is different from what is now made.

I'll keep you updated.

TOM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

May be, though much of my track is now coming up on 10 years old, so who knows? No doubt the AMS stuff is more brittle than other alloys from other manufacturers. One need only look at how it tarnishes (or rather, doesn't) to see a marked difference in composition. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Notching the base may be helpful, but I've never needed to to do it for guard rails.

The implication that he pressed too hard when spiking the rails is hard to believe for a modeler of Tom's experience, as I have followed his posts.

The thing that REALLY convinces me is looking at the picture of the rail with the head and web broken off... that metal appears crystalline, a sure sign of brittle metal. That is pretty darn obvious.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, as I said earlier, I can't speak to Tom's techniques, as I don't know how he works. I don't know if he gently pushes the spikes in or whacks them in with a full-size spike maul--he hasn't said. (I tried a spike maul once for a photograph. I don't recommend it.) I can write about the techniques I use with the same manufacturer's rail that yield successful results where Tom's techniques did not, and folks can take it from there.

It very well may be that there are considerable differences from batch to batch of the rail. Maybe Tom's and my techniques are very similar, and for whatever reason, I've gotten good batches of rail where he has not. That being the case, then, a single conclusion about the nature of AMS track cannot be drawn, as it would seem to vary from batch to batch. 

Bottom line, everyone agrees that the particular brass alloy AMS uses for their rail is more brittle than the brass alloys used by other manufacturers. (Even allowing for variations from batch to batch.) The disagreement lies in whether that brittleness renders the rail in any way inferior or unsuitable for use in the garden. As different people have different experiences, no single conclusion can be drawn one way or the other. The information is laid out; the readers can make up their own minds.

Later,

K


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

*spiking*

My layout is inside, not outdoors.
I cut my ties from pine to 0.5 x 0.5 inches using my table saw.

I am using Micro Engineering large spikes.
I cut crosses into needle nose pliers to hold the spike and hand push them into the relatively soft wood. Since the position of the spike in the pliers does not allow them to reach the full depth, I tap them tight with the nail punch and the piece of steel. Has always worked well.










TOM


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks, Tom. I use a nearly identical pair of pliers. I filed the tips of mine to form a "V" in the end when closed so it nests down over the spike and can be pressed in right to the rail. I set the spike using the first "groove," then once it's in as far as that will allow, I use the "V" end to push it the rest of the way down. That saves having to tap anything in. (And cuts down on setting the punch down and it disappearing on the workbench or in the vegetation. If the pliers are always in my hand, they can't get lost.  ) It also comes in handy every Spring for pushing spikes that have worked loose back in. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well Tom, I guess it's all your fault. Nothing wrong whatsoever with the rail.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

If Accucraft says the rail is brass (and they do: http://www.accucraft.com/modelc/track-250-ng.htm), then the material should be brass. If it's not brass, e.g., heavily alloyed with zinc to the point of being brittle and not performing anything like brass, it's not a price / value issue at all. It's false advertising. I'm fine with price reduction via inferior product, but customers should be told what they're buying.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Just my.02. I just got done straightening and bending 5 year old AML code 250 brass track and needed to add one brand new box. They both bent about the same, unlike EBT's experience, my used track is highly tarnished. I too made some switches, no breakage. I would have to think that some how Tom got a bad batch. It is obvious from his work that he is a highly competent craftsman. Not pimping, just sharing my outcome. Results may vary.

dave


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Good luck Tom,
I have posted on here a couple of times in years past asking these same type questions about AMS track/rail. Brittle breaking rail, sun rotting ties, track so out of gauge it was useless. I was mostly ignored, told that maybe I wasn't competent, or didn't know what I was talking about. 

Then of course there is the perpetual discourse, and of course disagreement, by the experts about how great everything with the product is, or could be, or should be, or maybe would be, and probably forever will be no problem exists at all in large scale. Or wait a minute maybe large scale is the problem.

Any of this sound familiar Tom?

On the positive side I will say that AccuCraft did step up a number of years ago and replace a box of uselessly out of gauge track. I hope you have luck in getting your problem satisfied, others have not been so lucky, maybe they just didn't pursue the issue far enough.

As I understand it brass is by definition an alloy. differing amounts of the base metals are mixed to create different grades (types) of brass; casting brass, machining brass, yellow brass, etc. I think the problem with the 
AMS brass track is the alloy mix. Too much cheap metal(zinc) and not enough of the good stuff (copper) to make a satisfactory grade of metal for use as track in differing weather (hot & cold) conditions. 

The UV problem with the tie strips, to me is a much larger issue than the brittle rail. Pieces of rail can be spliced in and made to work. What do you do when all the ties fall off when a train runs over the line? Yea, kind of a problem.

Just for the record my AMS track goes back to 2005 through 2010 as new install, bought in several different batches and some of the problems exist with all the batches. New batch old batch from the factory really doesn't mean anything unless you can see the specification change for the alloy used. 

The problem with that alloy, in my opinion, is once it is extruded through the dies it is "work hardened" and any further stress on the metal creates metal fatigue and failure. Until the alloy is changed there will be no consistent improvement in the product. Some have had success with their "batch" of track, couple of thoughts on that. Maybe they haven't stressed it or maybe their "batch" just happened to have a little more copper and a little less white metal in it, who can vouch for the production standards used.

Well anyway, it's Cheap to buy.
I guess this was a sort of rant, sorry about that,
but not sorry enough to not post it.
Rick


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I dug out some 2005 vintage AMS rail tonight and had at it with punch and pliers. Results were very similar to Tom's, even with taking extra precautions because I know the stuff to be brittle. I couldn't duplicate his spiking difficulties even with some fairly heavy artillery, but bending the guard rails was much more problematic. 

Bending without notching the rails failed to produce a sharp bend, but didn't tear. Notching the rails produced sharper bends, but also instigated more tears than it prevented. Most of these tears were just in the base of the rail, but a few migrated into the web. A few of the deeper notches broke clean through when I tried to bend. 

This was definitely different from when I built a new switch and spur on the railroad last year. Then, I could bend the rails with the same ease as I could with aluminum on my previous railroad. Maybe there's something to the "old batch" rail theory, as the "new" stuff I used last year was definitely better-behaved. 

Later,

K


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