# Ballasting Track



## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

Things have been very busy around here lately but I did find time to try a ballasting technique I have been thinking about. I have seen the reviews of using ladder systems, trenches, bench work (which I will use along the fence) and of course good ol' gravel ballast like the real railroads which is how I have built my previous railroads. I have tried the 50/50 glue and water mixture too but it didn't hold up very well in the heat here in Sacramento. So I decided to dumb things down a bit and try dry concrete as a ballast medium. I figured it should look about right for ballast and it won't move once it gets wet and cures. I did not add additonal crushed rock gravel to the mix either, this is straight out of the bag. It is very solid and hold the track well. Because it is unmixed it doesn't have the high compressive strength that finished concrete would have. We'll see how it holds up but so far it seems to work well.

Garrett in Sacramento


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will be interested to see what happens when it gets hot and expands. 

How hot was it on the day you ballasted? 

Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Garrett 

We know from the NSS guys who go to McClellan in July for the steam up that outside temps hit 100-110. That brass rail is going to expand more than just a little bit. Let us know which breaks first [a] the tie strips, or * the concrete. There are only two choices and neither of them is the rail.*


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

This particular method has been used by one of our club members. As I understand the track has been in place for 3 years with no signs of degradation yet. Yes - it is an experiment..

As I understand it the track was laid on a hot summer day to cater for max expansion, (track left outside in sun to heat up etc etc), with a single screw in the middle of each rail section to centre the thermal movement. Typical temp range here is 20F to 95F.

Link to some pics: *http://ashrail.com/lcout.htm*

Cheers
Neil


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

So long as the rail is free to expand, it "should" do okay. I've talked with people who have used similar methods on their railroads, and they all mentioned they only had troubles where the rail couldn't freely expand. I've got 15' or so of my track ballasted with bonded ballast (see the product review in the recent GR), and it's held up very well over the summer. It was fairly warm out when I ballasted, and I left 1/8" gaps in the joiners. (slide-on joiners, as seen above, not clamps.) How it does over the winter and next summer remains to be seen, but we have 40-degree temperature swings between day and night, with the temperature of the rail heating up more than that in the sun, so a LOT of rail movement. It's withstood that so far, at least. Granted it's only 15', not the entire railroad. 

The good thing is that with the ballast bonded in place, there's no dirt to splash up on the track and into the rail joiners to work against the expansion of the rail. After I water the garden, I can run a train over that section of track and hear no sign of dirt on the rails as I would hear elsewhere. When I checked the joiners not too long ago, they were still nice and clear. 

Later, 

K


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

I think I have to point out something I didn't before. I am leaving gaps of about 1/8th of an inch in each joint to allow for expansion and I am not using a lot of clamps except where the track is hard to reach for maintenance or I need to be able to remove it. The layout is also a point to point design so the track should be able to move as much as it needs to. Electrical contunuity is provided by soldered jumpers that are thin and bent to allow movement. It is an experiment, so if all esle fails I will have a nice roadbed for the next attempt.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

So now that you all have encased your track in concrete how do you expect to be able to correct cross level or warp when it appears, which it will. Later RJD


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

RJD, much depends on the subroadbed. In Neil's example, the track is first laid on a concrete roadbed, which--if it lives up to its name--will not warp or twist. That's about as strong as you get in terms of roadbed. I can't speak to Garrett's roadbed. I did mine as a product test, using a stretch of very well tamped crusher fines roadbed. I haven't a clue what's going to happen in my situation. I know I can chip away at it with a screwdriver and break it up should something go haywire, then I can re-apply. Ask me again next spring, after the ground's been frozen for 4 months. Quite frankly, that's part of the test. My dad used a similar product in a tunnel on his railroad about 5 or so years ago, and it's held up very well. No twisting, cross level or warping to fix thus far. 

Later, 

K


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas and concerns, i know what to look out for now. I don't suspect I will get much warping or cross leveling issues using this technique particularly up by they bridge where the "ballast" is about 3 inches deep. I might have some sort of issues where I plan to have a thinner layer of ballast but since it doesn't freeze here and the ground is as hard as rock already I think my only real concern is going to be the expansion issues with the rail. We'll see how it goes.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How does concrete live up to it's name? Frost heave, settling, etc can let concrete heave, twist and sink. 

Tell me every interstate made of concrete never is out of level after some years? 

It can be better or worse than plain old ballast. If you have a 5 foot long "piece" of concrete and you get frost heave at the 2.5 foot mark, then the whole thing will lift up. 

It's all about drainage in the soil that freezes, how cold it gets, etc. Concrete laid on top of heaving soil buys you nothing. 

Not saying what he is doing won't work (read that again)... saying concrete does not cure a location where you would get frost heave... in fact it can make it worse. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

True enough, Greg. Climate can have a profound effect on how concrete performs. That's why you have to engineer your pour to suit the environment. If you're in a cold climate, pour deeper, use more reinforcement, and probably a stronger concrete. Use your local building codes as a guide. And it very well may be that it's more effort than it's worth. Heck, even in your mild climate, many consider concrete to be decidedly overkill. But if there's one thing you and I do agree on, it's the need for a solid foundation under the track. Whatever method you use, make sure it's up to the local elements and you'll have gone great lengths to eliminate many future operational issues. 

Later, 

K


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Several of us here in Sacramento have used cement in various forms to hold ballast down. I use ballast rock and about 20% by volume of patching cement. Mixed them together dry, form the ballast into shape, then sprinkle with a fine mist. Another approach is to mix decomposed granite and cement (and a little color) to make a dry mix. Put in place and mist into place. 

This is a loose mixture, with not a lot of strength. It does hold the track down, allows you to align the track right to left and fore to back. When you're satisfied , a little water holds everything in place. If something shifts a lot you can take a hammer and break this up and re-do it.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 04 Oct 2012 02:00 PM 
Several of us here in Sacramento have used cement in various forms to hold ballast down. I use ballast rock and about 20% by volume of patching cement. Mixed them together dry, form the ballast into shape, then sprinkle with a fine mist. Another approach is to mix decomposed granite and cement (and a little color) to make a dry mix. Put in place and mist into place. 

This is a loose mixture, with not a lot of strength. It does hold the track down, allows you to align the track right to left and fore to back. When you're satisfied , a little water holds everything in place. If something shifts a lot you can take a hammer and break this up and re-do it. 


Hey Richard, how have you been? Missed you at Chicago this year. I used the concrete and decomposed granite mix where the roof drain splashed on the track all the time and washed away the ballast. It has held up for a number of years. I have too much track to try and concrete it all. When we get one of those 'frog stranglers' I just scrape it back onto the track or put down some new. Here in Houston, all we have to work with is the decomposed granite.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Couple things, 

First the method described by the OP is only good for holding the ballast in place. It will not do much good to keep the track in place. Concrete mix needs to be mixed and then poured in a uniform pattern where the Cement can bind to itself. Puring concrete mix, unmixed, on a roadbed and then misting water to get the cement to activate only helps to keep the ballast in place. Sure there is some "stickyness" of the cement that will grip the track, but any small amount of force will dislodge the track from the ballast. 

Secondly, Greg and Kevin are really talking about something entirely different than what is proposed in this thread. The frost heave issues they are talking about are those of what others experience when they use a concrete roadbed, like Marty or others. There can be frost heave issues in this application, but the issues for this application would be more like what someone experiences when they used the trenching method. 

Overall, I think this is a good idea for areas where people have a problem with ballast washing away. It wont prevent washout, but it will resist it more than standard ballast.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Tha'ts my point you lay it in cement and then when the cross level or warp or track heave comes into play now you got to chip away and re do. Wonder why real RR do not use concrete. Why would one want to have to go through the hassle of breaking up cement then level and then re cement. I just go out put some rock on the track level it and I'm good to go. Guess that is why some folks get discourage because of all the extra maintenance work. Later RJD


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## 0tter (Jul 29, 2012)

*my roadbed is crusher fines throughout, half an inch to two inches depending on the wheres and whats. gotta love going through and ballasting, ballasting, re-ballasting and leveling the right of way. just like the real thing. the fine mix of concrete looks good, with settling and heaving depending on climate it'll probably crack where it needs to and float where it needs to float. were not talking 14" thick freeway segments here. id been toying with the idea of mixing a little portland with my roadbed, just hasn't come to fruition. i think with some experimenting it could prove itself. after all concrete is the foundation of america.*


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