# Models with only one coupler attached



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

What's the deal with G trains coming with only one coupler fully attached? I've now accumulated 3 LGB freight cars, and each one had a factory-installed coupler hook only on one end. The other coupler hook was in the box and I had to attach it, which isn't an easy task with LGB. Also, 2 of my 4 USAT freight cars have both the loops attached, but the hook on one end is loose in the box. Why are they doing this? It's happening enough that there must be a method to their madness.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

One less coupler for a person to install. Time IS money.


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

Do you mean the coupler, or the latch/hook? LGB has been that way for years, in fact, before 1980, they were one direction only and could not be run the other way round without derailing. The LGB latches can be installed in less than a minute with a screwdriver, a cutter and the push pin.


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## Jonnychuffchuff (Dec 24, 2010)

A hook on one end is the old original LGB standard. After a lag of (as I recall) twelve years they started offering the second latch/hook in the box for those who wanted it. Think of it as a freebie. 

When I started in Large scale, I began by switching to knuckle couplers because, hey, doesn't everybody? isn't that the prototypical way to go? 

I soon changed my mind about this. I have all kinds of young and novice operators operating my railroad, and I couldn't keep up with explaining my couplers to all these good folks, or having to help them manipulate couplers that they just couldn't manage. 

Then one day I sold an LGB starter set to a lady, and I noticed how both she and her little child managed those hooks and loops so easily. How they work is kind of obvious. 

As she tested the train around the track, I also noticed that those couplers worked flawlessly on those tight 24"r. curves. 

I decided to give them a trial on my own pike, and I've never looked back. I started with hooks on both ends of all my cars, as that seemed reasonable, but actually the cars with two hooks are also pretty awkward to uncouple without a tool. A hook just on one end is much easier to work, and I've found it to be the best coupler solution in my particular case. I have removed the hooks off one end of all my cars, and now all my gear is equipped with one hook, just as you have seen them come out of those LGB boxes. 

Operations are great, I never have to help anyone with the couplers, I can uncouple anything, anywhere, with a single finger of one oversized hand, and as for appearances, I'm so used to the hooks and loops now that their appearance is not unpleasant to me. I love my single-ended hooks and loops, and I can't imagine going back to knuckles. 

The stock truck-mounted knuckles always seemed oversize and clunky and saggy anyway. Truck-mounted hook/loops don't seem to sag; perhaps they are lighter than the knuckles. 

It has to be said that I'm much more into realistic railroad operations than running trains around in circles, and the hooks and loops are very helpful for playing our particular railroad games around here. My pike is point to point, not a continuous loop, so the cars are always lined up in the same direction; there is no problem with cars turned around and unable to couple. Some passenger cars are semi-permanently coupled in groups. My freight locos and all switchers have hooks both front and back, as locos may at times be turned and run in either direction.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think it's aliens breaking into the factory loosening screws! 

;-)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found the double hooks to be very reliable when running on uneven track. 
These hook and loops are east to uncouple with a fly swatter, or even a tongue depresser. I use the backside of my jackknife blade.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Once upon a time in a small village there were 2 brothers who made toy trains. They both shared the task of each fitting a coupler on every carriage they made. One would always do his choirs and the other ate too much for lunch each day, which made him feel lazy. He usually just threw his coupler in the box.










Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So John, you have to orient EVERY car because of only one hook on each car? 

I gather you don't have switching operations or reverse loops or turning trains where the hook gets oriented the wrong way. 

Do you have a convention then, like locos have hooks on each end, and the cars in the train with hooks to the rear? 

Just curious how you solved the problem of a car oriented the wrong way. 

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Logically, the loco always has a hook. can have one on both ends. The cars can go either way on the loco as long as they all go the same way. 

Best though to run the cars hook last so you can still hook up some the wrong way on the end.
It is the lack of a hook between two items that is the is the problem.

Andrew


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well by my logic the engine has the loop and each car has a hook. 
The loop is a stronger design than the hook, much better to repair car than have loco out of service. 

As long as there is no revesrse loop or wye in the track, only the 0-5-0 big hook can foul it up. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually you could say that locos always have loops, and the first cars have hooks. (I would not do it that way but it would work too) 

If you loco has hooks and you have a hook on the first car, then you can have that same "interference" problem that double hooking can "do". 

John brings up a very good point, if your convention is loops on the locos, then you would have a lot harder time "breaking" a loco (because it could not lose a hook) 

So, you could pick EITHER convention... but the basic question is if you want to avoid "double hooks", then you have to take care to orient EVERY car in the train, right? 

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If the loco has no hooks, then when you run up past the car on a passing loop it won't couple onto the other end of the car. 
With hooks on the loco you will always be able to couple to any car no matter which way it is. 
If a hook on the loco breaks you still have the option of doing it all the other way around. 
They usually all have loops anyway. It is just one hook that is missing on one end of the cars. Just a hook would be more vulnerable to breakage. 
Yes, for ease of uncoupling all have to go the same way but two hooks are better than none. 
I guess some could modify what LGB have done and just have a hook. Spock would never do that though.









Andrew


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Clarify; Are there loops on both ends and some have hooks too? 

Whadda 'bout pullin' and pushin'? Pull with a hook and push with out... 

John


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

John, 

The LGB toy trains come to mind. The cars have loops at both ends but only one end has a hook. 
The Toy Train engines, Porter saddle tank and the Stainz all have a hook and loop only at the back. 
The 'Americanized' Stainz has just a loop at the back.....? Something went astray here.








The short cars that came with the 'Americanized' Stainz sets (Lake George and Boulder) have only one hook so they are doing it in the opposite way that LGB usually does. 
The LGB engines with couplers at the front are just loops. 
Pushing with just a hook might break things. The loop acts as a buffer. 

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have added the second hook to most of my LGB cars. Occasionally, my always perfect track work could lead to an unhooking. I have kept the H&Ls on all my Eurpoean style cars and engines. All my North American style rolling stock has knuckle couplers (Bachmann, Delton, USA, LGB). I haven't had any problems with the double hooks. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes 2 hooks are better than none (doh) 

BUT the question was "one hook or two" between 2 cars. 

From what I have seen, I've run into more problems with "double hooks" on tight curves than singles. 

I thought why many people used H&L was to work well on tight curves. Double hooking always seemed to conflict with that. 

So back to the OP's original question... maybe coming with only one hook at one end is really the best practice overall all things considered.

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

"BUT the basic question IS if you want to avoid "double hooks", then you have to take care to orient EVERY car in the train, right?" 

Right Greg. 




















Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, the basic question is what the OP asked... ;-) 

Really it's the TRADEOFF between several options. Some people may have problems with double hooks, some might not. 

Some people might have a problem orienting every car, some may not. 

Some people may need to "bulletrpoof" their locos (loops only) and some may not. 

Some people may need "double hooks" because of their trackwork, some may not. 

So, each person can make his decision based on his priorities. 

I would like to hear more from people's experiences on double hooks. Very early on, I noticed this problem on tight curves, actually causing derailments in some cases. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I have never had any problems with the double hooks on LGB equipment. Back when I lived in Denver and had my first outdoor layout I used LGB R1 (4' diameter) on my rack RR and R2 (5' diameter in my lower loop. No problems on either track. I needed the double hooks on the rack because the 2 axle cars might come uncoupled on the transition sections. The only problem I have had with H&Ls on tight curves is with the Bachmann Thomas series cars. There the H&Ls are body mounted and do not rotate like the truck mounted ones on the LGB cars. Chuck


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I don't care .... ha! 

KaDeeeee's all the way.... 

Full steam ahead, 

or 

Throttle 8... 

Dirk - DMS Ry. - :~ } 

had 2!!!!!!


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

My little upper track has modified R1 curves with an 8 inch straight in the middle of the curve giving me about a 5 foot diameter. The loop is approximately 5 feet by 9 feet. My LGB Circus Train runs around and around and around....... I use single hooks due to some derailments on the curves with double hooks.


Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Jonnychuffchuff, that was a great history lesson and explanation to answer my question, and thank you. I didn't know any of that, or that folks had thought about it to such an extent before me. I, too, hated the low, hook and loop, truck-mounted couplers and was researching how to body mount knuckles on my rolling stock, all the while, running my railroad. Surprise, surprise, surprise! I'm finding that the hook and loops don't bother me so much either, and they sure stay together well, and seem to help getting around those 8' diameter curves and S curves that I've built into my trackplan. I think I'm going to stay with the low-mounted, truck-mounted hook and loops. I'll keep them on both ends, as I have 2 reverse loops and the freight cars run in both directions. I''ve had very little problem uncoupling them, which I have to do every day at end of run in order to store the train in its storage shed. It's pretty much a round-round operation, though. Someone asked for experiences with H&L on both ends going around tight curves. My 8' diameter turnouts and S curves have proven no trouble for either my Thomas or my USAT. I wouldn't want to go any sharper, as 8' is a pretty sharp curve I think.
I've avoided buying rolling stock with knuckle couplers, such as Aristo Craft, keeping to USATrains, and now that I've been disappointed with the quality and scale of LGB. From now on, it's Thomas and USAST G29 only for me. 
Again, thanks so much for the great info.
Ken S.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Aristocraft includes H 'n L's too. 
John


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I like the H+K's since they are cheap reliable and cheap. 
I used to remove or not put on the extra hook but when I put my WYE in I had to have the hooks on both sides and I once had a runaway down a 80' long 2 degree slope which didn't end pretty so now they are all 2 hooks.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I did not know that. I had 2 reasons not to buy Aristo Craft. The couplers was one, plastic wheels is the other. They still have plastic wheels, don't they? I won't run plastic wheels. (Note to moderator: This last comment may hijack this thread, but I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or not on this one comment alone.)
Ken S.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ken, 
It' s cool and semi related. I think hooks and loops are a pretty narrow subject, who includes them is relevent. I think if the Original Poster is ok with it, you're in like flint.... 
I haveta clarify my statement anyway, my knowledge is limited to the discontinued Classic Line. I can't find the cattle car box to check regarding their 1:29 line. 

John


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

To demonstrate the problems when going through an S bend with couplers (radius 2ft).
These are Brawa two axle cars 15-1/3" (39cm) long with a wheelbase of 7-1/2" (19cm).
The same problem occurs with long truck mounted coupler cars with lots of overhang. Sometimes far worse! 
The two hooks can interfere with each other. 
The ideal coupler would always be centered to the track but body or truck mounted, they don't. 
Brawa employ a self centering swiveling action on both the hook and loop to keep all flexible. 




















Those springy bits of plastic do break! Brawa is rather delicate.









The hook centers itself under it's own weight. 









LGB attempted to solve some coupling problems much like a short 4 axle truck mounted coupler car.
Long cars that have plenty of overhang at the ends create the biggest problem.









but then we get this...

















Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew:


That is why many of us put a length of straight track between the two curves in an "S" curve. My rule of thumb is that it should be as long as the longest car you are going to run through the curve. I have found this to be a problem with LGB R1 and R2. It is less of a problem with larger curves R3 and R5. It is best to check your curves to see if they need a straight section before making the that part of the layout permanent.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah Chuck, good point in designing a track plan to avoid these types of problems. 
I have presented an undesirable scenario, although it can be a lot worse.









Just for the record these Aristo-Craft Smoothside cars really need a minimum 5ft radius (pictured on 2ft radius) and they did come with optional hook n' loops. 










Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have some engine and car combinations that will derail coming into 10' diameter curves from a long straight section. These are with knuckle couplers. Both my USAt SD70 and GG1 cause problems with 40' freight cars. As I recall, truck mounted Kadees on the first car worked better than body mounted. I don't have access to those engines and cars at the moment, they are a couple of thousand miles east. 

Chuck 

Note added. Last Sunday I was at an open-house here in Phoenix and one of the freight trains with 4 similiar LGB diesels (with H&Ls) had problems. Two of the engines occasionally would uncouple at the same point. There was a single hook in the coupling. There was a single hook in all of the engine couplings. The engines were of the 2155/2156 series. It was always the same two engines. There was an "S" curve without a straight segment. My guess is that the curves were LGB R2 (5' diameter). They could have been R3, but I don't think so. They weren't R1. It was strange as three identical engines didn't have a problem and the fourth did.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Chuck, that open-house wasn't well advertised, as I live in Phoenix and have been on the look-out since last year's tour, and I missed this one. It was Eaglewings Iron Works sponsored, and their website hasn't updated this year. Is there another tour? 
Totalwrecker, hijacking this tread is OK with me, as I'm the OP. Not sure if others are OK with it, though. I have a double reverse curve from 10' diameter to a pair of 8' diameter turnouts. With my 40' freight car and 4 axle diesel limits, my trains navigate this awful track arrangement OK with double hooks on the loops mounted to the trucks.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken, the ABTO had their spring open house this past weekend. There were about 20 trains on tour. East valley Saturday and west valley on Sunday. I only went on Sunday as I was at the Adobe Mt RR Park swap meet Saturday. I got to exercise my battery/rc powered mallet on the "G" layout pulling my "adult beverage train". I can't remember how I learned about it. It is possible that I checked their web site when we got here in February. I've talked to several people and the consensus is that the Eaglewings tour is off this year. If that isn't true I hope someone will tell us.

Chuck 

I'm planning to go out to Sun City Grand layout tomorrow morning. I hope to be able to get on one of their loops with the beverage train.

edit: I had a brain phyrt in my earlier part of this post. Our neighbor brought over a clipping about the open houses, early last week about the ABTO open houses. It was a clipping, so I don't know the local paper. It included the website.


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## Jonnychuffchuff (Dec 24, 2010)

Hiya Greg, those were good questions. I've been down at York, and also not yet very experienced at following threads on this forum. Learning curves, y'know...

So, as far as normal operations around here are concerned, you could say that all my cars have loops on BOTH ends. Hook and loops on the one, loops only on the other. For want of a better term, I call them polarized cars. This means we use what you might call single-hook coupling here on the Old Late and Slow. In uncoupling, the advantage for me of the single hook is that you don't need a tool such as a flyswatter, credit card, knife, spatula, or whatever to uncouple, as you do with twin hooks. With your bare hands you can push down the one hook down with a single fingertip, spread the cars a centimeter or so in either direction with your other fingers, and you're good to go. 

Most of our operations revolve around peddler operations and yard switching. As I said, the whole point for me was so novices could handle switching duties. 

In coupling up, you have other advantages: a single hook simply slips into place, you don't have one hook coupled and the other jammed sidewise between the two loops; you don't get two hooks interfering with one another on tight s-bends and crossovers. In addition you only have half as many springs to maintain - that alone is a huge benefit!

Admittedly, single hooking does require good track, but in my experience, all reliable model railroading requires good track, so there isn't really much new here.

I can use other types of couplers and coupling arrangements in special cases. A string of nine logging cars is permanently coupled. They have L&P couplers between them, H&Ls at each end of the string. Same kind of thing applies to passenger cars. Passenger trains' main purpose around here is to throw a little obstacle into the main event - our freight ops.

You asked about polarized cars - they always run polarized; that is, facing the same way. This is more or less prototypical, by the way; freightcars don't often get turned around, and never around here. So all the freightcars get set out with all their loops on the left, their hooks and loops on the right. And they stay that way all summer. 

I have two reversing methods. The turntable, for locos only, of course, and a rev loop. Only locos or maintenance equipment may use that, and I don't have any maintenance gear! (Small yard, no room to park such strictly scenic items.) So it's just the locos. Locos, regardless of orientation, have hooks and loops on both front and back. This way the locos can pull a train regardless of whether they are pointing left or right. In uncoupling a loco, turned either way, from the right end of a train, one of those tools is helpful, BTW, because there at the back of the train is a hook, of course. By the time one of my assiatants gets to this point, they are usually pretty familiar with the whole business, and can easily cope with this extra step!

Hope this helps. Cheers!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep John, my brief "fling" with h&l's told me easy to do with one finger if you only use one hook... real pain in the butt with 2 hooks and one finger. 

Thanks for the comeback, it seemed to me that you would have to view the cars as "polarized" to use your term. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It is also easy to separate the two hooks with the back of a pocket knife or a key. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I found it difficult with a blade to get both hooks... it seemed to be that a rod that would push down on both hooks at the same time would be the best tool. 

I went to Kadees pretty early on, but I still encounter H&Ls on my friends layouts... so I still experience the frustration of double hooks... 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I just pull the cars apart and slide the back of a knife blade or key down the gap between the two loops and with my free hand pull the cars apart. If the blade is parallel to the track bed both hooks go down at the same time. There is nothing wrong with one or two hooks, I just like the security of two hooks. As I said earlier, I have knuckles on all my American style rolling stock. There is nothing prototypical, that I know of, for the European rolling stock. It could be out there, but for the amount of time that I run my European stock, I'm not going to invest in it.


Chuck


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

What I 'developed'  over a decade ago to easily release two cars with h'nl was acquiring vinyl siding samples (usually free off a board at your fave home improvement store) and cut them down to scale 4'x8' "sheets" ! 

Handy size in your hand and easily slid btwn the lips of both loops push down and both hooks go down allowing release very very effortlessly !! Even better when the train is slowly rolling by ... the cut car(s) will stop and the rest of the train proceeds by.

I tend to have a few of these simulated wood sheets laying about the empire, just laying about or leaning against something in spots where most likely to cut cars from a train. 


symmetrical or assymetrical h'n l uncoupling !

nite, 
doug c


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Doug,

You never want to clean up the empire too much. It's Always handy having a convenient piece of wood laying around!









Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be fine until TSA Eliminates pocket knives from back yards. Oh, that is right, I can carry my Swiss Army knife. Starting next month. I hope. Chuck


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One way to disconnect hook and loops (I do this when running at shows) is to pick up the car and just twist it 90 degrees. Instant decoupling this way.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Just a point on "polarized" equipment: 

On my layout, I had a car which (out of sheer laziness) only has lettering on one side. The lettering is complex, and I never got the motivation to do the other side. After a couple months, I completely forgot about it, and I used the car in service regularly. Since my layout was point to point with turntables at either end, the only thing which ever got turned was the locomotive. I found out quite accidentally that cars tend to polarize themselves naturally, unless you run an entire train around a reverse loop or wye. Circles, figure eights, and anything else which does not present a reverse polarity issue for the track power folks cannot turn a car, so the only time you'd have to worry about orientation is when first putting the car on the track. 

So I can definitely see how "polarized" cars could work without the slightest thought or care - provided there's no way to turn them!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, but there are things called wyes and reversing loops, and it's fun to run 2 trains in the opposite direction on the mainline.... like a real railroad! That's what I do with my adventurous friends. 

My first method was the turn the car 90 degrees too, but then it held on so I twisted it until it came loose. Unfortunately my uncoupling area looked like a bomb had gone off with many cars on their backs ha ha! 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The 90 degree twist works best, for me, on the last car in the train. Otherwise, I usually have to put some cars back on the track.

Chuck


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

"... never want to clean up the empire too much . . . . "

Just like the 'real' world !


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## GoeringTrains (Jan 27, 2013)

I got a LGB freight car too that had a coupler when I got it, but it fell of pretty soon. Those couplers are pretty flimsy. You can put a new one on, but I agree that it is kind on tricky.


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