# New Aristo PCC Trolleys are in stock



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I was surprised to get a phone call from St. Aubins yesterday. When Tom said "are you sitting down" I replied "you must be calling about the PCC Trolleys."

He was. 

When St. Aubins announced they were going to have a special run of Chicago PCC Trolleys (Wrigley Field and Field Museum) there was no question, since I am from Chicago, I had to have them. I had quickly put down deposits on one of each but I had pretty much stopped thinking about them as it was a long time ago when they were first announced. I found perhaps the first mention of them in the St. Aubins ad in the February 2009 Garden Railways Magazine.

It is too early for a review but they should arrive within a week or two. Meanwhile, after checking the Aristo website, I found the other PCC Trolleys are also in stock at Aristo.

http://www.aristocraft.com/instock/Arrival2.pdf
* ___ART23302 *PCC TROLLEY BROOKLYN 287.00
___ART23303 *PCC TROLLEY MBTA 287.00
___ART23304 *PCC TROLLEY PHILLY TRACTION 287.00
___ART23305 *PCC TROLLEY SAN FRANCISCO 287.00
___ART23306 *PCC TROLLEY LOS ANGELES 287.00
___ART23307 *PCC TROLLEY TORONTO 287.00
___ART23308 *PCC TROLLEY SEPTA PHILLY 287.00
___ART23309 *PCC TROLLEY BALTIMORE 287.00


___ART23342 *PCC TROLLEY PITTSBURGH 287.00
*

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

So Jerry you say that St Abins is going to have the PCC cars lettered for the Chicago transit company? Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick already has his... 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 07 Jan 2011 12:24 PM 
So Jerry you say that St Abins is going to have the PCC cars lettered for the Chicago transit company? Later RJD Hi RJ,

These (the CTA models) were to be a special run exclusively for St. Aubins.

The following image is from the St. Aubins ad in the June 2009 Garden Railways Magazine:











Jerry


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Where can we see a picture of what they look like.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 07 Jan 2011 02:19 PM 
Where can we see a picture of what they look like. As far as I know there have not been any official photos of the CTA models. Mine should be here in a week or so and I can post some photos then but in the meantime their inventory may be running low (Tom said one model may be sold out but I don't remember which one).

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I found this site to have very interesting information about the Chicago PCC Trolleys:

http://users.ameritech.net/sigridaok/grnhrnt.htm

The only Chicago trolley cars I remember were running on Clark Street. Most routes had been converted to trolley bus routes (electric overhead wiring but instead of a trolley with metal wheels riding on rails they ran on rubber tires and were driven like a bus.

http://www.trolleybuses.net/chi/chi.htm

I don't know for a fact if Chicago's PCC trolleys did or did not run other than on the streets but I suspect they did. 

http://web.me.com/willvdv/chirailfan/mapt1933.html

I am pretty sure the Chicago Aurora & Elgin ran both on rails with an electrified 3rd rail plus on streets with overhead wiring (and perhaps on elevated tracks). The CA&E ran a block from our home in Hillside but it ran more like an urban railroad and was enclosed by a fence because of the 3rd rail. Elsewhere they used overhead wires rather than the 3rd rail.

I would guess that the PCC Trolleys ran on similar routes but in more of an urban environment while the CA&E was more suburban.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry any price for the CTA cars? Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

ART23350B - PCC Trolley - Green Hornet Wrigley Field 











*St. Aubin's Sale Price $239.99* 



*ART23350A - PCC Trolley CTA Green Hornet Field Museum


*
*







*

*St. Aubin's Sale Price $239.99 * 



*[url]http://www.staubinonline.co...l*[/url]

Since these are only available from St. Aubin's I would think it is OK to post the above.

Jerry
*
*


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 07 Jan 2011 02:19 PM 
Where can we see a picture of what they look like. 
Here are the regular Aristo-Craft PCC's (other than the St. Aubin's CTA models):

Undecorated (I don't know if this is actually available)










ART23302 *PCC TROLLEY BROOKLYN










ART23303 *PCC TROLLEY MBTA










ART23304 *PCC TROLLEY PHILLY TRACTION










ART23305 *PCC TROLLEY SAN FRANCISCO










ART23306 *PCC TROLLEY LOS ANGELES










ART23307 *PCC TROLLEY TORONTO










ART23308 *PCC TROLLEY SEPTA PHILLY










ART23309 * PCC TROLLEY BALTIMORE










ART23342 *PCC TROLLEY PITTSBURGH









Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry I just ordered mine and it should be here Weds. Got the Green Hornet as they where not all sold. Thanks for the heads up. It most likely will be a shelf queen tho. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi RJ,

Mine will probably not be run much either. For me they are like Hartland's Chicago, Aurora & Elgin Interurbans in that they are part of my personal history (even if not prototypically correct). In effect the more I like something the less likely I am to run it as I don't want to wear out or damage something that is important (to me) when I may not be able to replace it.

I moved away from the Chicago area in 1965 so for me Chicago is mostly represented by memories. CTA and CA&E are part of those memories.

I've never understood why street transportation and subways (and elevateds) are popular in other gauges but have little representation in G Gauge but then I've never outgrown the Lionel/American Flyer and Plasticville mentality.

Actually I think Aristo's PCC Trolleys offer a unique opportunity for someone to build a G Gauge layout around street transportation rather than railroads. As such it could be done in a much smaller space with no need for huge curves. If someone offered a one trolley turntable one could be placed on both ends of a layout and a neat little layout could be built around it.

If someone does (or has done) this I would like to see photos of it. I know that LGB sold a lot of their trolleys but I have not seen any American trolley layouts.

Jerry


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

The overhead wire system , outside , down on the ground , is THE problem for modeling electric trains .

Even people who are NOT model railroaders , see that 'electric' trains with poles or pantographs , require an overhead wire to operate .

Unless with the trolley pole up or the pantograph up ,they are collecting static electricty out of the air .









A USA style overhead wire SYSTEM is needed in large scale for electric trains .


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Check out thesse PCCs and the overhead wire 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUE9WVjHuyo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW2X...re=related


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dennis, what do you mean by SYSTEM? I'm thinking you mean the poles, wires, suspension system, frogs, etc. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Greg you are correct , I ment a complete product line for a US style method of ovehead wire electric train operation , poles , wire , arms , insulators , etc .

But its only a dream But a made in Chinia sort of inexpensive maybe , product line could result in more trolley / interurban modelng .

I do have the LGB catenary , and it works very well , on my layout here .


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry I move from the Chicago area in 72 to go to work for the MoPac. I loved going into Chicago and seeing all the trolleys and buses and then when the CTA took over riding the L. Lots of memories when I did live there. As you also said yours may not be run either. I agree it's part of an era and I will look back every time I look at the car. Later RJD


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis; 

I'm hoping to build my own single wire system someday. I am planing to use only pantographs on my vehicles (and maybe one bow collector). Both a good friend of mine and I have decided to use nickle-silver N scale rail for our "wire." We will install it head-down using N scale nickle silver rail joiners soldered to the mast arms to support it. This will also allow the rail to expand and contract a little, as we plan to allow the rail to extend a short distance outside the end rail joiners. Where the three foot lengths meet, they will be slipped into side by side joiners instead of being butted together. Not very elegant, but it should be fairly durable. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Dennis Paulson on 10 Jan 2011 01:03 PM 
The overhead wire system , outside , down on the ground , is THE problem for modeling electric trains .

Even people who are NOT model railroaders , see that 'electric' trains with poles or pantographs , require an overhead wire to operate .

Unless with the trolley pole up or the pantograph up ,they are collecting static electricity out of the air .









A USA style overhead wire SYSTEM is needed in large scale for electric trains .










Hi Dennis,

I agree that an outside, down on the ground, overhead wire system might be problematic and I too have some of the LGB trains with pantographs but a nice thing about the trolleys is that they might offer an option for building a small indoor layout to run on days like today when the snow outside is higher than the track on the layout.

I suspect most of LGB's overhead wiring systems are run indoors and for those of us with less motivation perhaps a solution might be a non-conductive option in an overhead wiring system. That way an Aristo Trolley could possibly be run on track power but with a simulated overhead wiring system. For those more motivated there would be the challenge of an actual overhead wiring circuit and modified PCC Trolleys.

Unless I am mistaken in the past some folks did modify trolleys/streetcars to work with overhead wiring. I don't think my LGB Streetcars are wired for overhead circuits but these are the ones I think some people did modify.

If the Aristo PCC Trolleys sell as well as I think they will they might open new opportunities for growth in Large Scale.

That growth could be in both prototypical and toy like operations.












Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

It is not my intention to promote St. Aubin's but this is something new they are offering and it offers options for others to think about regardless of which Aristo Trolley they buy (note the differences in the reversing units offered):

http://www.staubinonline.com/store/...olley.html


PCC Trolley Special #1











Special #1 includes:


PCC ART23350A, Green Hornet


Split Jaw SPJ 100-B Reversing Unit


ART11031 Lighted Bumper


PCC Trolley features: 1:29th scale, low-profile motors, working trolley pole, full detailed interior, opening sprung passenger doors, working LED head lights and marker lights, LED interior lighting, lit destination boards, automatic operating brake lights, all new gear box design, designed after the very first PCC car built, and prototypical paint schemes and detailing. 



PCC Trolley Special #2










Special #2 includes


PCC ART23350A, Green Hornet


Split Jaw SPJ 200-B Multi-Stop Reversing Unit


ART11031 Lighted Bumper


PCC Trolley features: 1:29th scale, low-profile motors, working trolley pole, full detailed interior, opening sprung passenger doors, working LED head lights and marker lights, LED interior lighting, lit destination boards, automatic operating brake lights, all new gear box design, designed after the very first PCC car built, and prototypical paint schemes and detailing.


Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 10 Jan 2011 05:26 PM 
Jerry I move from the Chicago area in 72 to go to work for the MoPac. I loved going into Chicago and seeing all the trolleys and buses and then when the CTA took over riding the L. Lots of memories when I did live there. As you also said yours may not be run either. I agree it's part of an era and I will look back every time I look at the car. Later RJD 

Hi RJ,

I cannot remember ever riding a train in the USA except for many years later riding tourist trains (but I often rode trains when I was stationed in England).

On the other hand every day going to school in Chicago involved riding the Blue Bird bus from Hillside to Maywood where I took a CTA bus to the CTA Congress "L" and that to Halstead where I am pretty sure it was a CTA Trolley Bus I then got to school on.

Since non-rail surface transportation is not very practical to model that leaves rail surface transportation as a very good prospect for expanding our hobby (in my opinion). The downside/challenge would be the quantity of buildings, people and vehicles needed to create an urban environment.

It would be interesting to see how successful it would be if someone came up with a relatively inexpensive multi-fronted block of building as is common in every city.

I think a lot of the success of Lionel and American Flyer was attributable to the inexpensive Plasticville buildings.

Jerry


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"I think a lot of the success of Lionel and American Flyer was attributable to the inexpensive Plasticville buildings."

Jerry;

That and the fact that they disassembled easily and stored away flat in their original boxes until the next Christmas season. Bachmann tried to do something similar with large scale buildings made from a Masonite-like material about ten or more years ago. They were a flop. I'm not sure why. They may have been too pricy for the public's perceived value, or they may have been too heavy (or brittle).

The hobby store where I help out for the holidays now stocks only a very few Plasticville or similar O & S kit buildings. People want them already assembled. (That bemuses me as well. If one were to trip while carrying a Plasticville kit, it would practically assemble itself on the way to the floor!)










As for inexpensive, well, no more. I paid $12.00 for the church in this photo. It was still in its original box. The box has a 98 cents original price rubber stamped on it!

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Dave Meashey on 11 Jan 2011 08:33 AM 
That and the fact that they disassembled easily and stored away flat in their original boxes until the next Christmas season.Have fun,
David Meashey


Sometimes I think there is too much emphasis in G Gauge on highly detailed prototypical layouts and not nearly enough attention paid to those of us who simply lay track on the floor or on a table or other simple indoor layout.

Like everyone else I love to see those fantastic layouts but many people I know who run large scale trains make no effort to have realistic layouts. They just want to see a train running around their layout whether the layout is on the floor, around the Christmas Tree, in the basement or outside.

My original layout consisted of track laid on bare plywood (outside) with bird houses for buildings. I tend to prefer quantity over quality in that I'd rather have a lot of cheap buildings rather than to have (or build) a few very nice ones. Often the solution was to buy used track and buildings and as the layouts grew to upgrade from the bird houses to nicer ones.

Its all about what we individually enjoy and can afford.

Jerry


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Well since i cannot aford a lgb street car i will be ordering the mbta trolley tomorrow hope they are in stock.One question will they run on 4ft lgb curve track. Thanks for any help.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 11 Jan 2011 03:48 PM 
Well since i cannot aford a lgb street car i will be ordering the mbta trolley tomorrow hope they are in stock.One question will they run on 4ft lgb curve track. Thanks for any help. 

Hi Pete, 

I will be VERY surprised if they will not run on 4' diameter curves. Mine should be here very soon (perhaps tomorrow) and I will find out for sure then and let you know.

Jerry


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry thanks for the reply. We have a small layout and have r1 lgb curves in our layout.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

These cars where designed to operate on smaller diameter curves so no problems. Later RJD


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the reply to my question. I learned a lesson a few years ago as to what will and what will not run on 4ft curves. It was a costly lesson one i hope not to repeat. Thanks again.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you go to the thread that Nick started, who actually has one, he has a video of his on R1 curves in his house. 

Greg


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg yes i have seen the video and nick said that it will run on the r1 curve track. Will be ordering one today. We would like to get a lgb new orleans street car but we can,t afford one. But maybe some day.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I'd wait till the jury is in before buying one. Later RJD


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By pete on 11 Jan 2011 03:48 PM 
Well since i cannot aford a lgb street car i will be ordering the mbta trolley tomorrow hope they are in stock.One question will they run on 4ft lgb curve track. Thanks for any help. 
Hi, Pete - I know that the answer about the 4' diameter curves has been answered but I thought I would add my observations:

1. The trolley had no trouble on 4' diameter curves. 
2. It does slow down quite a bit at low speeds when in the curve due to increased drag
3. When in the curve the back of the trolley extends just under 1.5" from the outside rail - the front of the trolley extends just over 1.5"
4. The trolley will run on straight track on as little as 4 volts (track power) - at that voltage the lights are not on
5. It will make it all the way around an oval with 4' curves at 6 volts - again, it slows in the curves but does not stop - the speed is barely a crawl - about 1/2 foot / second.
6. At 6 volts the trolley is drawing about 0.5 amps on curves and 0.25 amps on straight track. Much of the power on the straights is being consumed by the 20+ LEDs.

7. I put an Eggliner on the track with the trolley and it is MUCH faster - my estimate is that it is twice as fast.

dave


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm not sure why the delay but I checked my bank statement online and St. Aubin's charged my credit card 1-6-10 (a week ago) and the CTA Trolleys I ordered have not arrived yet. Perhaps the delay is due to the unusually bad weather we have been having. I'm not concerned since its been a couple of years since I put deposits down when I ordered the trolleys and with 4" of snow (very unusual for Arkansas) I won't be running them outside anytime soon. They will probably spend most or all of their time on the crawl space layout which has not been used for some time.

I'll post some info about them when they get here. Hopefully they will arrive today.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I phoned St. Aubin's and they did not actually receive the trolleys until last week and mine were shipped yesterday so they should get here sometime next week.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 11 Jan 2011 07:38 PM 
Thanks for the reply to my question. I learned a lesson a few years ago as to what will and what will not run on 4ft curves. It was a costly lesson one i hope not to repeat. Thanks again. 

Hi Pete,

This was posted on the Aristo-Craft Forum (where I got the PCC photos):

* "I wanted to ask, is there a minimum radius for these? I'm thinking of a plan, but need to know if they will run on 4' diameter curves......

Thanks in advance,*

*Dave"*

*"The PCC will run around the 24 inch diameter curve. However, it would be better to use the 30 inch diameter.*

*__________________
John Mikesh
Product Manager" * 
http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...hp?t=16964

Jerry


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## fred j (Jan 12, 2011)

Posted By pete on 11 Jan 2011 07:38 PM 
Thanks for the reply to my question. I learned a lesson a few years ago as to what will and what will not run on 4ft curves. It was a costly lesson one i hope not to repeat. Thanks again. 
Pete,

Check out Nicks thread, the car is running on 
R-1 track how cool is that. Looks like so far, he's 
the only one to have one running on such tight curves.
Check out Nicks thread, lots of good info there.

He's even installing sound with a speaker.
How cool is that!

These are a neat car, I just need to wait to see if
they run good over the long term before i buy one.

Fred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, need to see if the wobbly wheels are common. So far Nick's and Dave Bodnar's videos both show runout and another person has commented he has the same situation. 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

The following (posted by Lewis Polk on the Aristo Forum) explains the thinking behind the design of the PCC Trolleys. It may answer some questions that have come up.

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...hp?t=16991

*Dear Dave,

Thorough and careful review as always. It was all a tight fit even down to the pins that are low profile and not easily found. We did not include a speaker as electrics really didn't make any sounds and it would have been another tight fit. I'm sure that those that want the bell sound can find a small speaker to make this happen. 

It is designed directly from the President's Commission initial drawings and is as accurate as we could make it. The die cast chassis was a challenge too as we had to make sure the wheels did not touch the chassis on tight curves and cause a short. The interior was taken from photos at a trolley museum in Connecticut and we made that detailed and accurate too.

Even the gear box was complicated to keep the low profile of the original and yet have the motor in the gear box. Yes, the PIC chip is programmed to bring on the brake lights when voltage drops by 20% indicating a slow down of the trolley.

It was a challenge unlike any other project we've done, but the results are well worth it. 

All the best,
Lewis Polk *


In my case the actual Chicago CTA Trolleys were quite different from the Aristo PCC trolley design (perhaps why Aristo did not include them in their regular PCC product line) but I'll be happy with the St. Aubin's versions as it would make no sense for Aristo to have a completely different mold just to match the CTA Trolleys.

According to Wikipedia: 

It turned out that the PCC streetcar was a very good design. The standard car was 46 ft (14.0 m) long and 100 in (2.54 m) wide with later models 46.5 ft (14.2 m) long and 108 in (2.74 m) wide.[_citation needed_] Chicago, Detroit, Illinois Terminal, Pacific Electric, and San Francisco had longer cars, as long as 50.5 ft (15.4 m).

I guess Chicago used that extra length to put the main exit doors at the rear with mid-length doors as well.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By dbodnar on 12 Jan 2011 09:53 AM 


1. The trolley had no trouble on 4' diameter curves. 
2. It does slow down quite a bit at low speeds when in the curve due to increased drag

4. The trolley will run on straight track on as little as 4 volts (track power) - at that voltage the lights are not on

5. It will make it all the way around an oval with 4' curves at 6 volts - again, it slows in the curves but does not stop - the speed is barely a crawl - about 1/2 foot / second.

6. At 6 volts the trolley is drawing about 0.5 amps on curves and 0.25 amps on straight track. Much of the power on the straights is being consumed by the 20+ LEDs.


dave 




My concern here would be the friction between the wheels of the trolley and the inside head of the track and perhaps a potential for splitting a switch (due to the wheels pushing against the outside rail and the points and frog of the turnout).

I once bought some brass track that had been heavily used. The straight track shows little wear but on the curve track the inside head was worn completely away. This was an extreme situation where the track had been very heavily used. 

While I would not expect a similar problem with normal use of the Aristo trolleys the fact remains that the wheels (probably steel) may cause extra wear of the rail's inside head on 4' diameter curves.

That may be what John was referring to when he said The PCC will run around the 24 inch diameter curve. However, it would be better to use the 30 inch diameter.[/b] 

Then too if stainless steel track is used the extra hardness would probably resolve the wear issue (if it is an issue).

Dave's observations show that there is a significant increase in friction on tight curves - which is to be expected. There would be less friction with 30" diameter curves but I have no idea how much less friction. Part of the friction (and potential for problems on sharp curves) may depend on how easily the trucks swing (rotate). On some locos and cars the trucks swing freely while on others the wires, method of attachment etc. cause various degrees of resistance to rotation.

Since the trolleys are brand new it will take more experience over time to really know how important the 30 inch diameter recommendation is.

In my case I will be running my trolleys on 4' and 5' curves but I will probably not be running them enough for me to be concerned about anything.

Jerry


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 13 Jan 2011 01:53 PM 
The following (posted by Lewis Polk on the Aristo Forum) explains the thinking behind the design of the PCC Trolleys. It may answer some questions that have come up.

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...hp?t=16991

*Dear Dave,

Thorough and careful review as always. It was all a tight fit even down to the pins that are low profile and not easily found. We did not include a speaker as electrics really didn't make any sounds . . . 

Lewis obviously was never around a PCC running on corrugated rail that had been set in concrete!
*


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Jerry, thanks for posting the lil history lesson on CTA. I was born in Chicago in '69 and moved here in '76... All I remember is riding the L trains all the time with my brothers. Mark would make me pancakes every Sat. morning then we would go places on the train.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 14 Jan 2011 09:20 AM 
Jerry, thanks for posting the lil history lesson on CTA. I was born in Chicago in '69 and moved here in '76... All I remember is riding the L trains all the time with my brothers. Mark would make me pancakes every Sat. morning then we would go places on the train. 

Hi John,

It has been many years since I lived in the Chicago area but for anyone who ever lived in Chicago their memories will always include various versions of the CTA.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I had given up expecting the CTA Trolleys to arrive this week but then I heard a horn honking and it was the FedEx driver - with the CTA PCC Trolleys.

So far I have not had time to take any photos but I did run the trolleys downstairs on the crawl space layout and I have to report that there were some problems with driving them through my LGB R1 (4' diameter) turnouts.

In fairness my layout is sort of a torture track and problems I experienced may or may not reflect what others find and they may or may not accurately reflect results with Aristo-Craft turnouts.

The yard where I ran the trolleys has R1 turnouts in the middle of R1 curves and it even has "S" curves with back to back R1 turnouts.



















Even so the trolleys rumbled over the turnouts almost all of the time but on a few occasions they derailed and shorted out. This happened mostly when I was running the trolleys in reverse.

It was clear that the trolleys were not going smoothly through the curves of the LGB turnouts and I suspect the small wheels were hitting the frog in the turnouts.

In fairness the trolleys have prototypically small wheels and the parts of the LGB turnouts are unprototypically large and spacious (easy for small wheels to hang up). I noticed the rough running over the turnouts even when running a straight path into the single entry side of the turnout and I do not think the wheels were hitting the points.

I don't consider this to be a realistic review of the trolleys (that is not/was not my intention). My layout has somewhere around 75 electric LGB R1 turnouts and I fully expect to be happily running the PCC trolleys on them for many years. The reality is that I seldom run anything on the part of the layout where the trolleys were derailing as it is a switching operation and the PCC trolleys are anything but switch engines.

Still, if someone is planning on using the PCC Trolleys in a situation where they will be frequently turning through LGB R1 turnouts this might be important for them to know.

I experienced no problems with the trolleys going around R1 (4' diameter) curves or through the straight sections of the LGB R1 turnouts. Both trucks on the PCC trolleys swivel and seem to turn with little resistance.

I am quite pleased with the CTA trolleys. They were literally "Ready to Run" as I opened the boxes, took them out (I did have to turn the light and motor switches on), put them on the tracks and they were running just fine.

The "noise" they made while running reminded me of the very similar noise I recall from the real trolleys running. In my case I have no plans to install any sound or control systems in them as I like them just the way they are.

Happily St. Aubin's charged me the original price they advertised when they were originally taking orders with a deposit.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

The following was with the PCC Trolleys.

It confirms the fact that the pole can be used for power and states the minimum track diameter.










Jerry


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Jerry,

I noticed that, as you wrote, the Chicago "Green Hornet" version of the PCC car is modified to have nearly full skirting, wider doors and an extended body for a third set of doors. However, the first generation of Chicago PCCs were the "blue goose" cars: they were blue, and were of a different design, one which much more closely resembled the Connecticut car on which the Aristo model was based, in my view. See:

http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/irm/040306/pcc4021.jpg 

Cheers


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep Jerry and I was born about 30 miles NE of Chicago and my mothers mother lived in Chicago I road the CTA tolleys and Ls and of course the buses. Mine will most likely be a shelve queen to reminded me of the good old days where I lived and worked till I was 30. Then I headed west, north and finally south. Hopefully mine will show Monday as the storm here really put a damper on UPs deliveries. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Tom Leaton on 14 Jan 2011 12:38 PM 
Jerry,

I noticed that, as you wrote, the Chicago "Green Hornet" version of the PCC car is modified to have nearly full skirting, wider doors and an extended body for a third set of doors. However, the first generation of Chicago PCCs were the "blue goose" cars: they were blue, and were of a different design, one which much more closely resembled the Connecticut car on which the Aristo model was based, in my view. See:

http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/irm/040306/pcc4021.jpg 

Cheers 



Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info and the link.

It helps with how I view my layout in that I don't worry much about being prototypical but I admit that I like it when I find that what I do/buy has some reasonable relationship to the prototypes. In this case I guess I'll "pretend" that my CTA Trolleys are Blue Geese that had been repainted CTA colors.









I do miss the full skirting and my first thought when I saw the Aristo PCC photos was that it would be nice if someone offered snap on skirts that color matched the CTA PCC Trolleys. The skirting for me is the most noticeable visual difference although the wide rear doors are another major difference.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 14 Jan 2011 12:40 PM 
Yep Jerry and I was born about 30 miles NE of Chicago and my mothers mother lived in Chicago I road the CTA tolleys and Ls and of course the buses. Mine will most likely be a shelve queen to reminded me of the good old days where I lived and worked till I was 30. Then I headed west, north and finally south. Hopefully mine will show Monday as the storm here really put a damper on UPs deliveries. Later RJD 

Hi RJ,

I am guessing you meant you were born 30 mies NW of Chicago. I was born in Oak Park, then we moved to Spring Grove then I went to Kankakee, and then to Des Plaines and then Hillside, Champaign and finally Green River (before leaving Illinois). 

I was surprised to get the trolleys today. I am sure you will like yours.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

OK. Here are some quick photos:

Here are the Field Museum and Wrigley Field versions









Wrigley Field model









Field Museum model









Size comparison with Hartland Chicago Aurora & Elgin Interurban









Size comparison between Hartland CA&E and LGB Chicago Streetcar









When you see the difference between the size (especially the wheel size) it is obvious why the Aristo PCC Trolley is likely to have more trouble negotiating turnouts that were designed for locomotives and rolling stock with much larger wheel diameters (and wider wheel flanges).










This is not a criticism of the Aristo PCC Trolleys. The above is simply to demonstrate that any comparisons with other street transportation by other manufacturers is an apples vs oranges situation.

I like the Aristo PCC Trolleys and I think they will prove to be very good sellers.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep Jerry NW like Palatine, Ill. Road the bi-level trains a bunch also. These are some cars I would really like to see made also. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 14 Jan 2011 05:25 PM 
Yep Jerry NW like Palatine, Ill. Road the bi-level trains a bunch also. These are some cars I would really like to see made also. Later RJD 
Hi RJ,

It is unlikely anyone not from Chicago would have noticed the difference between NE and NW.

I am not sure which bi-level trains you are referring to unless you mean the double decker Burlington trains (which I never had any experience with).

Jerry


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Jerry for the photos , I did not know the size difference between them till you posted ...................THANK YOU .


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Dennis Paulson on 14 Jan 2011 06:39 PM 
Thank you Jerry for the photos , I did not know the size difference between them till you posted ...................THANK YOU .









Hi Dennis,

I did not know the difference myself as I've never seen anything but the photo St. Aubin's had of the CTA Trolley from the Illinois Museum. I'll leave it up to others to figure out the actual scales.

Hartland says:

" The question of Scale

Hartland Locomotive Works products are engineered to fit with 1:24 scale Narrow Gauge equipment and 1:29 Standard Gauge equipment."

I would guess the Hartland models to be around 1:24, the Aristo PCC to be 1:29 and the LGB perhaps to be around 1:22.5.

My solution is simple - I just don't run the Hartland and LGB cars at the same time and the same will be true for the Aristo models. As with the originals I like to run them in pairs (one clockwise - eastbound and the other counter-clockwise - westbound).

I think with its low-to-the-ground design along with the small wheels, Aristo-Craft has caught the right feeling of a streetcar/trolley that the passengers could easily step up onto and into.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I have a friend coming over this morning to see the Aristo CTA PCC Trolleys so I decided to move them to the main loop of the crawl space layout where we could see better how they ran.

To be honest I was somewhat surprised when both trolleys ran smoothly around the entire main loop because all the track in the crawl space is brass and I have not run anything there in around 3 months and it has probably been at least 6 months since I last cleaned the track. The crawl space may be indoors but it is unheated and uncooled so it gets hot, cold and damp.

It is not unusual for my regular lighted passenger cars to show some flickering of the lights as they run around the layout but I was very impressed to discover that the Aristo PCC Trolleys ran around the layout with the lights staying of a uniform brilliance (I like the white color temperature of the lights) and no flickering of the lights or stalling of the trolleys. With the 8 small wheels for track contact I fully expected the trolleys to stall and stop somewhere on the layout but that never happened.

If anything what really surprises me is that Aristo-Craft came out with a totally new product that is obviously intended for track powered layouts as compared with their other recent products clearly designed for the battery powered market. I cannot see how it would be easy to convert the trolleys to battery power but there are a lot of imaginative folks out there and I suspect it will happen (I'm a track power guy so I am happy with things the way they are).

Since I like running in the dark I dimmed the crawl space lights and it was easy and reassuring to be able to follow the trolleys by their illumination when they were out of sight.

The situation of rough riding over my R1 LGB turnouts disappeared in that the main loop only has R3 (8' diameter) turnouts and the trolleys ran through the straight and the curved parts of these turnouts with no problems.

Considering that Aristo-Craft seems to have built these trolleys from the ground up apparently not sharing any parts from other Aristo-Craft products I think they have done a great job with this totally new product. With the current economy it is a nice surprise to find a manufacturer willing to make a major investment in a totally new product for our hobby.

I have to wonder if there may be future plans with Aristo-Craft for smaller street style track and overhead wiring products because I think they are creating a demand for them. The trolleys strike me as too unique not to eventually be followed up with various compatible products.

Naturally my observations are just that - observations of my personal experiences with my Aristo PCC Trolleys. I cannot say how accurately they may or may not reflect anyone else's experiences.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry: yep most folks would not have caught that. My reference is to the Bi-level is the same as you mentioned for the Burlington. All the majors RRs running commuter service into Chicago use the Bi-Level cars. Even the C&NW. They where also know as push/pull trains and scoots. 

How many different PCC names did St Abins make for the various areas in Chi town. . Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 16 Jan 2011 05:11 PM 
Jerry: yep most folks would not have caught that. My reference is to the Bi-level is the same as you mentioned for the Burlington. All the majors RRs running commuter service into Chicago use the Bi-Level cars. Even the C&NW. They where also know as push/pull trains and scoots. 

How many different PCC names did St Abins make for the various areas in Chi town. . Later RJD



Hi RJ,

There were just the two versions from St. Aubin's - the Wrigley Field and the Field Museum. I used to be a Cubs fan and back then even a kid could afford to to to a game once in awhile.

I remember seeing the Burlington Bi-Levels but never rode in one. I seem to recall they were more of a north or northwest route and we lived straight west in Hillside so it was never an option for me.

Its funny that there are several photos of the CTA Trolleys and Halsted seems to be a common route shown on them. I went to St. Ignatius H.S. at 12th & Blue Island so Halsted was my exit on the Congress "L" (before it became the Eisenhower Expressway). Most of those neighborhoods have long since been torn down.

How do you like your CTA Trolley?

Jerry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 
Nice review. I might consider one now, my track outside has not worked real well for small track powered locomotives, but maybe this would work out okay.


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## aankus (Jan 5, 2008)

FYI Chicago South Shore & South Bend electrified now has 
double decker commuter coaches as well !


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 16 Jan 2011 07:12 PM 
Jerry, 
Nice review. I might consider one now, my track outside has not worked real well for small track powered locomotives, but maybe this would work out okay. 

Hi Jerry,

I appreciate the problems with small track powered locomotives outside (particularly the difficulties in maintaining track electrical contact with fewer conductive wheels). 

The ability of the PCC Trolley to make it around my crawl space layout without any track cleaning is one thing that really impressed me with the PCC Trolleys but I will learn more as I have decided to move the CTA Trolleys out to the Caboose and the Caboose Layout which still has a lot of old brass track on it. I am sure that I will have to do some track cleaning before running the PCC's but that is to be expected. I am thinking about replacing the brass track with Aristo stainless steel track anyway.

One thing to bear in mind on track where you or anyone has had problems in the past is the limited clearance the PCC Trolleys have between the motor blocks and the rail head.












With the demands many have voiced for prototypical everything there can be a resulting greater requirement for the track itself to be prototypically free from irregularities. I think Aristo has come up with a pretty prototypically sized trolley and now it will be interesting to see how well this 1:29 trolley is received by those who already have a lot of 1:29 rolling stock.

Bearing in mind the scale size of the wheels the circumference is visibly less than that of the wheels and drivers of conventional locomotives and rolling stock so it is logical that the wheels will rotate more and have a greater contact per wheel with surface contaminants of outdoor track (dirt, pollen etc.) but then a real trolley would not travel anywhere near the distance a locomotive and train would.

My view of the Trolleys is that they represent a very different operation from traditional trains running on layouts and in fairness they should be judged for what they are rather than just another locomotive (which they are not).

I like the PCC Trolleys but I am rethinking how I am going to use them as I think they offer some opportunities regarding how they can be used that I had not really given any thought to.

I've been impressed with your progress on your projects but Marilyn has been having some medical problems and I am far behind on my emails etc.

Regards,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry: I like the car very much. Brings back a lot of memories. I'm not sure if I will run the car or just use it as shelve display for now. 

I'd like to see if anyone runs it on a back and forth track using the AC reversing unit. Wonder how the unit will hold up. I do have a trolley line set up as such. So anyone that trys this I would be interested in how it works and any ill effect to the trolley. Later RJD


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

RJD you need to run it on the track you have to find out and let us know 
how well it dose and hold up. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Someone had asked about a track cleaner to keep the track clean for the PCC Trolleys.

I don't know how readily available this is but the LGB 50050 Track Cleaning Attachment is one potential solution that would not involve having to modify the trolleys.










I have not used this myself but I've heard from others over the years who used them and liked them. I believe they are intended more for surface dirt, pollen etc. rather than to attempt cleaning highly tarnished brass track.

Perhaps someone who has used them would like to add their comments.

I have no idea how hard or easy it would be to fit these to non-LGB cars. I suspect they would not work well with cars longer than the LGB or Aristo bobber cabooses because I think the pads would fall off the rails on sharp curves and perhaps derail the car.

Granted that the trolleys will be running as single units but I suspect these or other pads would not fit under the trolleys. My thought is that they could perhaps be put on other rolling stock to clean the surface of the track when the trolleys are not running. Additionally Aristo-Craft makes Track Cleaning Cabooses that could also be used.

Jerry


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## bcer960 (Dec 27, 2007)

Jerry,

I have a indoor layout with a few hundread feet of track that is automatically run by a pc. I have put these LGB track cleaners under each of my cabeese. That way each train, no matter what track they are on, are always cleaning it. I have had to modify my aristo cabooses and the cleaner to get them to fit, but they can hardly seen as they fit between the tool boxes. The track was originally cleaned when laid, and these have kept them clean ever since, about 5 years. The only train that does not, at the moment, have one of these is my RDC. 
I should mention that I have both LGB and Aristo track under the table(where it can't be seen) and all hand laid aluminium track onthe table. These cleaners work for both beatifully. They do need some clearance under the car to work, and because Aristo has not brought out the Vancouver paint scheme, ( I am told this spring) I have not yet bought a PCC to test if it would work.

Ray


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Flats. I'm waiting for some one else to be the Guinna pig. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By bcer960 on 17 Jan 2011 05:16 PM 
Jerry,

I have a indoor layout with a few hundread feet of track that is automatically run by a pc. I have put these LGB track cleaners under each of my cabeese. That way each train, no matter what track they are on, are always cleaning it. I have had to modify my aristo cabooses and the cleaner to get them to fit, but they can hardly seen as they fit between the tool boxes. The track was originally cleaned when laid, and these have kept them clean ever since, about 5 years. The only train that does not, at the moment, have one of these is my RDC. 
I should mention that I have both LGB and Aristo track under the table(where it can't be seen) and all hand laid aluminium track onthe table. These cleaners work for both beatifully. They do need some clearance under the car to work, and because Aristo has not brought out the Vancouver paint scheme, ( I am told this spring) I have not yet bought a PCC to test if it would work.

Ray


Hi Ray,

Thank you for posting your information. My larger outdoor layout is a combination of Aristo stainless steel track and LGB nickel plated turnouts so it does not need regular cleaning and I don't want to run my LGB Track Cleaning Locos over it. I've been thinking that the LGB 50050 Track Cleaning Attachment might be what I need for that layout - especially in the spring when the pollen starts falling from the trees onto the track.

If you should fit the 50050's to your Aristo RDC I would like to hear how it works and see how you do it as I really like that idea. I suspect the Length of the RDC's could result in the 50050's falling off the rails on curves but perhaps if it was placed close to one of the trucks it could work. 

An RDC as a track cleaner - I like it.

Jerry


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

I bashed two single-truck cars to use the LGB cleaners, and put the pads to ride in front of the rear axle. The assembly is pretty easy to cut apart and reposition the pieces where you need them to be. I've been glueing small rectangles of drywall sanding screen to them. Really knocks the corrosion from the small amount of aluminum rail that's on the trestle, and keeps the brass looking pretty good as well. 

I'm not worrying about wearing down the rail head -- I'll be long dead and gone (and maybe turned into ballast) before that happens!


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The junk in the middle of an RDC makes it hard to use as a track cleaning car, not to mention it's length. However, the RDC can PULL an effective track cleaning car as a trailer and it still looks right. 

see 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips2/track_cleaning_tips.html#homebrew


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By George Schreyer on 18 Jan 2011 04:27 PM 
The junk in the middle of an RDC makes it hard to use as a track cleaning car, not to mention it's length. However, the RDC can PULL an effective track cleaning car as a trailer and it still looks right. 
Hi George,

You succeeded where I failed.

I've always liked the "G" Clean track cleaning car (i believe they are no longer made). I add bullets to the inside for weight and pull or push it with an Aristo FA-1/FB-1 (with traction tires so there is plenty of traction to spare).





















I wanted to make it look more realistic and since it used the LGB 5004 Track Cleaning Block (my favorite hand track cleaner) I thought I could modify a caboose or other car by cutting a hole to allow the LGB block to ride inside and be guided by the caboose but I ruined a perfectly good caboose and never could get my idea to work.

As usual you came up with a great idea that works.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I like the one from Bridgemasters: *http://www.bridge-master...trong>**

They Are $59 list and the Aristo ... uh oops... easy to do on this thread, the Bridge-masters part number is CLNR001 










There's more weight to the block, you can put your own sandpaper or scotchbrite on it, and it also has a place for a coupler, and will take a Kadee or other easily. The rounded edges of the block don't snag as easily as the one Jerry showed.


Regards, Greg*


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Jan 2011 10:54 PM 
I like the one from Bridgemasters: *http://www.bridge-master...trong>**

They Are $59 list and the Aristo ... uh oops... easy to do on this thread, the Bridge-masters part number is CLNR001 


There's more weight to the block, you can put your own sandpaper or scotchbrite on it, and it also has a place for a coupler, and will take a Kadee or other easily. The rounded edges of the block don't snag as easily as the one Jerry showed.


Regards, Greg 



Hello Greg, 
I had never seen or heard of the Bridge-Masters track cleaner. I like it and I will have to get one - especially since it accepts 3M Scotch-Brite pads which are my 2nd favorite track cleaner. The 3M pads I prefer are the 7748 gray ultra fine ones. The Bridge-Master unit looks very much like the G Clean unit (perhaps by the same designer). I was able to put Kadee couplers on the G Clean but I would prefer a unit I could put regular hook and loop or knuckle couplers on.











Do you or anyone else know who carries the Bridge Masters CLNR001 at a good price (feel free to send me a private email if you like)? 

As for this thread I don't have any particular concerns about which directions it goes in that I have no plans to take apart or modify or do anything with my PCC Trolleys so if anything my focus is on anything to make operations with the PCC Trolleys better. I suspect track cleaning of brass track is something I will need to pay attention to.

If someone wants to talk about anything they are doing with their PCC Trolleys they are welcome to do so.

Thanks for the info.

Jerry

*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, I've tried various different scotch brite "colors" and I have found the finer stuff does not last as long, as it tends to snag on guardrails a bit and tear more than the coarser stuff. The deep purple stuff works the best. The "traditional" green stuff, that was my first experience (you got a thin sheet of it for cleaning pots and pans in the kitchen) is again not "strong enough" to last a long time. 

I took my car, and milled another notch in the other end and mounted another coupler, so I shove my track sweeper ahead of it. I also added some more weight, as I have 2 Magnolia trees that put out very stiff, large leaves: 

(this picture is before I added the second coupler)










Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Greg,

Its all a matter of personal preference. Before I retired I used to sell the 3M Scotch-Brite industrial pads as an auxiliary line to 3M Electrical Products so I had plenty of opportunities to try the various ones.

 View Larger Image
Material Safety Data Sheet
Scotch-Brite™ General Purpose Hand Pad 7447, 6 in x 9 in Most universally used in a variety of applications. Excellent starting point to clean, finish, grain, denib and defuzz. May be used by hand, with a hand pad block, or on an in-line sander. Abrasive mineral: Very Fine grade aluminum oxide. Color: Maroon

*Stock Number: *61500123239
*UPC: *00 048011 04029 5
 View Larger Image
Material Safety Data Sheet
Scotch-Brite™ Ultra Fine Hand Pad 7448, 6 in x 9 in Conformable web and finest silicon carbide hand pad available. Excellent for final finishing and light cleaning. May be used by hand, with a hand block, or on an in-line sander. Abrasive mineral: Ultra fine grade silicon carbide. Color: Light Gray.

*Stock Number: *61500123247
*UPC: *00 048011 04028 8





I don't use the hand pads that often and when I do I simply wrap them around a short 2" x 4" which makes for a handy track cleaner. It is true that the 7447 is "tougher" but I prefer the ultra fine grade because I believe it has a lower potential for microscopic scratches in the brass which some have cautioned against.

I am not an expert on this. I just prefer the lightest abrasive that will get the job done. Its all a matter of personal preference as the pads were never designed for use on brass anyway. I ran into a sale on the 7447 maroon pads a couple of years ago but the 7448 gray pads were not available. If anyone happens to have a surplus of the 7448 gray pads I would swap two 7447 maroon pads per 7448 pad.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I buy them in larger sheets, I guess about 8 x 11, and cut 3 pieces from each. I get them in the painting department at Home Despot. 

Greg


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

I expected more comments about the Aristo PGG trolley and instead find comment/suggestions from the track cleaning dept.









Yeeeech {forget this thread}


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Read Jerry's post on the thread direction... since he is the original poster, and his issue is "handled" then this is what threads that have run their course do... just kind of meander... 

We are having a nice discussion on track cleaning, and I'm learning more about scotch brite... 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Greg,

I checked all the dealers I normally buy from but no one carries the Bridge-Master CLNR001. I guess it is only available from the manufacturer at retail price.









I phoned Bridge-Master but no one was there so I left a message.

In the meantime if anyone knows where I can buy the Bridge-Master CLNR001 for less than retail plus shipping please send me a quick email (I sure hate to pay retail if I can avoid it). Actually if I end up buying it from the manufacturer perhaps they will sell it with both ends cut out for couplers. I was surprised to find that they did not already do that.

As you pointed out, I had said (regarding this topic):

*As for this thread I don't have any particular concerns about which directions it goes in that I have no plans to take apart or modify or do anything with my PCC Trolleys so if anything my focus is on anything to make operations with the PCC Trolleys better. I suspect track cleaning of brass track is something I will need to pay attention to.*

*If someone wants to talk about anything they are doing with their PCC Trolleys they are welcome to do so.* 

There are other topics regarding the Aristo PCC Trolleys that go into much more detail for those who want to take their PCC Trolleys apart, add control or sound systems to them or get into all the little details about them. It just happened that when I started this topic there were no other topics on MLS about the Aristo PCC Trolleys. Its not a competition for viewers. I just play with toy trains. 

Regards,

Jerry


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 Jan 2011 04:34 PM 
Read Jerry's post on the thread direction... since he is the original poster, and his issue is "handled" then this is what threads that have run their course do... just kind of meander... 

We are having a nice discussion on track cleaning, and I'm learning more about scotch brite... 

Greg 


Greg, you don't have to do that if you come to the dark side!!! Hah LOL couldn't resist, the devil made me do it!! Regal


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

The weather here has been unseasonably warm and pleasant. Some friends came over and we "ran trains."

First I ran a FA-1/FB-1 with a Revolution installed (controlling both the FA-1 and the FB-1) because I wanted to find out why it had not run well the last time I ran it (for a minute or two). At first it ran a bit sluggishly and I suspected the brass track which had not been cleaned in months but Al had brought the matching FA-1/FB-1 I had sold to him a few weeks ago and it ran fine on the other mainline. I then put a track cleaning car in front of my sluggish FA-1/FB-1 and it was soon running every bit as well as the other set.

I realized I have probably not run these locos more than a couple of hours total over the years since I bought them and all they needed was a bit of running time to get their internal electrical contacts making good connections once again. Sometimes we blame the loco (as I did) when all that was needed was a bit of running time.

Why am I mentioning this on a topic about the PCC Trolleys?

Because next I brought out a PCC Trolley to show it to Al and not surprisingly it ran just fine around the layout. As it was running I remembered that there had been some comments about some minor sounds they made while running which made me realize they must have been running their trolleys indoors because I could not hear anything from my trolleys as they ran around the layout outside. Do my trolleys make any sounds or do anything unusual? I really don't know because I have not noticed it if they did and as long as they run without any particular problems I'll not be concerned about them.

I am not challenging or questioning anything anyone has said about the PCC trolleys. I trust that the comments accurately reflect the owners experiences with them. I'm just not sure how important some things may or not be for something that is designed to be run mainly on garden (outdoor) railways.

In a way I am reminded of some comments made about the LGB Mikado when it was first introduced. Al bought one and he had the same problems others had reported but he returned the Mikado to LGB, got an upgraded drive system installed free (along with a free boxcar) and now probably has well over 1,000 hours of trouble free running with that Mikado. When LGB was going bankrupt I bought some spare Mikado drive units anticipating problems but I've never had a need to use any of them.

Al surprised me when he told me that he also put his locos with Revolutions installed in them on his outside layout where the only protection they have is a short tunnel he parks them in to keep them out of the rain. Other than that he leaves them outside all year. I would not do this or recommend this but it has been working for Al.

I think that the difference between Al and myself is that I am always concerned about what might be wrong and what might happen while Al just buys his trains and runs them day in and day out (hour after hour 7 days a week). Of course Al does have occasional problems (like worn out motors) but when he does he just runs something else until he figures out if whatever is broken can be fixed or needs to be trashed.

My goal for 2011 is to try to become a lot more like Al and to try to wear out some trains rather than to worry about what might happen.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry I also have the bridge-master track cleaning car. I also added weight to it but in a bit more fashionable way than Greg. I use the pads that you use for smoothing out plaster board joint. It works very well and last a bit longer than Scotch Bright and it also can be cut to size. I do not believe you will find this car available other than direct form Bridge-Masters. It's still a good price even from them. later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What! My weights are not fashionable? Man, what a low blow! 

Now I'm going to have to up the ante! 

Just you wait Mr. Ace! 

hahahaha! 

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 31 Jan 2011 05:54 PM 
Jerry I also have the bridge-master track cleaning car. I also added weight to it but in a bit more fashionable way than Greg. I use the pads that you use for smoothing out plaster board joint. It works very well and last a bit longer than Scotch Bright and it also can be cut to size. I do not believe you will find this car available other than direct form Bridge-Masters. It's still a good price even from them. later RJD 

Hi RJ,

I had phoned Bridge-Masters to order their car but they never returned my call. Since then I've decided to replace the LGB brass track and turnouts with Aristo-Craft stainless steel track and turnouts (I have already replaced the curves with Aristo SS). 

The PCC Trolleys were the final straw that convinced me in that I plan to run a "Trolley Track" between town and the sawmill in the middle of the figure 8 on the layout and those tracks are the hardest to reach. 

At first I thought that with the stainless steel track I was not going to buy the Bridge-Masters but I will use the left over LGB brass track on the sidings where I will park the trains and the Bridge-Master car should work well in cleaning that track on the sidings (I don't want to carry a LGB Track Cleaning Loco out to the caboose layout or it would have been an even better solution).

I agree that the Bridge-Master is at a fair price - I just did not want to buy it from the manufacturer only to discover later that it was also available from dealers at a lower price.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The nice thing is that the green scotch brite pads I buy 8 at a time, will cut into 3 pads each for the Bridgemasters car. That's really ideal for SS or Nickel. I've never needed anything more aggressive. 

RJ has a bunch of sap on his tracks sometimes, so I guess he uses the "drywall sandpaper" which is silicon carbide cloth. 

You can use either with this design. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have been having a hard time giving my money to Bridge-Masters. First I phoned them but no one was there so I left a message. No one returned my phone call.

Today I phoned them again and again no one was there. I left a message but my phone lines are not working so they will not be able to phone me right back if they try.

No big deal I thought, I would just email my questions to them but surprise there is NO email address on their web site! 

I think this is the first time in a LONG time that I tried to contact someone to order something and they did not have an email address.

Its not a big deal. I am not in a particular hurry. I just find the lack of an email address unusual especially when I cannot reach them by phone and my phone message goes unanswered. I am NOT suggesting anything about the company or their products other than they should get an email address.

Jerry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, there is an email link on this page: *http://www.bridge-master...trong>**

You get there by clicking help on the main page. Really not too tough.

Greg 



*


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Feb 2011 09:47 PM 
Jerry, there is an email link on this page: *http://www.bridge-master...trong>**

You get there by clicking help on the main page. Really not too tough.

Greg 





Hello Greg, 
It may not have been too tough for you but it was too tough for me. Rather than my not finding it and you finding it, it should have been easy for both of us to find it without ANY effort.

No offense meant to you but if they had given me your response I would never buy their product. Their product is one of convenience to me - not a necessity. It is important for a product of convenience to be convenient to buy.

That was the point of my comments.

My 67 year old eyes find it difficult to read many things on a computer monitor and the particular computer monitor I was using has a high resolution but does a very poor job of displaying the lower resolutions I normally use.


Jerry 


*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The word HELP is right in the middle of the first screen on their web site. 

http://www.bridge-masters.com/ 

Right in the center, just below the contact info. 

Jerry, if you set the resolution on your monitor so that parts of web pages are missing (and I get this all the time when helping people), you must take the responsibility to scroll your screen, in this case down. 

Many people do what you have done, mistakenly thinking it will help, and forcing a high resolution monitor into lower resolutions is not the answer. 

Get a 27" monitor, run it in as high resolution as you can read. Run Firefox zoomed in, and you will be able to see ALL of web pages. 

You CANNOT use low resolutions today and "see" web sites. You are fighting a losing battle with your configuration. I remember you complaining about my web site, and right on the first page of my site it tells you what resolution to use minimum. You can complain, but you won't win this battle, because you are fighting progress and the Internet, not me or Bridgemasters. 

Bust the piggy bank, and buy a big monitor. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02 Feb 2011 08:04 AM 
You CANNOT use low resolutions today and "see" web sites. You are fighting a losing battle with your configuration. I remember you complaining about my web site, and right on the first page of my site it tells you what resolution to use minimum. You can complain, but you won't win this battle, because you are fighting progress and the Internet, not me or Bridgemasters. 

Bust the piggy bank, and buy a big monitor. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

As usual you are using your values and expecting others to comply with them. When I was working it was my obligation as a salesman to find ways to make it easy for my customers to buy from me. Now I am retired and as a retired salesman I expect those who want to sell something to me to make the same effort to make it easy for me to buy from them. It is neither necessary nor important for me to concern myself with compatibility with those who want to sell me something. Salesmen who do not understand this have very short careers.

Lets put things in perspective - my perspective if you don't mind.

I am no longer willing to pay for computers that exceed my personal minimum requirements. My minimum requirements happen to be computers with a Pentium 4 processor, Windows XP and monitors capable of 640 x 480 resolution.

Some people may be willing (and have a legitimate need) for computers and monitors with greater capacity. As with my trains, when it now comes to computers I prefer quantity over quality. Some people will go out and pay $500 or more for a single computer and several hundred dollars for a nice wide screen monitor.

Instead of this I went to the Arkansas State Salvage and bought 10 IBM/Lenovo ThinkCentre's (towers) with Dual Core PIV 3.00 or 3.20 processors for $45.00 each. With these I am using either my old monitors (just because a computer dies does not mean I need a new monitor) or used monitors I bought from the state for $25.00 each. Some were brand new (older but never used) small screen CRT monitors for $5.00 each. I am increasing the memory of the computers to 3GB each at a cost of $15/GB. The computers did not have keyboards but I bought 15 IBM keyboards (never used) for $15 ($1.00 each). Staples had wireless mice for $7.00 and I already had several Microsoft wireless mice. They also had Microsoft and Logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combinations very cheap.

The prices were so good my wife bought a Gateway all-in-one (computer and monitor) for our daughter in law for $50 and a Dell laptop for $165. A week later I went back and bought 3 more IBM ThinkCentres and gave one to my son, one to my son's mother in law and one to a friend.

I now have and use one IBM PC in the camper, one in the caboose (plus the used Dell laptop in the cupola), one in the house office, one downstairs in the house and two in the shop office plus I have 4 complete and fully checked out spares for the day when any of them crash. Because I used my old XP software all I bought was Norton 360 (multi install at less than 1/2 price) but I am switching to FREE Microsoft Security Essentials.

You say that "you won't win this battle" but I do win the battles - every one of them because I don't fight battles I cannot win - I walk away from them.

I "won" the battle with Bridge-Master because you gave me their email address, I sent them an email, and they phoned me. I gave them my order over the phone so I did not lose anything there.

You also said "I remember you complaining about my web site, and right on the first page of my site it tells you what resolution to use minimum."

I was not complaining. It is your website and I respect your right to do or not do anything you wish with it. Rather than a complaint, I was suggestiong that you might wish to somehow modify your website to make it more viewer friendly to people like me who (for whatever reason) use lower resolution settings on their monitors. 

You are technically correct in that you did tell me which resolution I would need for your web site but the simple truth is that the inconvenience (for me) of viewing your web site means that I now only go to your website when I really need something which does not happen often. If I do I cut and paste from your website into Microsoft Word so that I can make your information readable to me at my convenience.

The difference between us is that you see life through the eyes of an engineer and you look for and expect technical competence - not only for yourself but for those who you offer assistance to.

I am not and I never have been an engineer. I am a salesman and my life has been built around making things happen with the tools I have at hand. 

If someone asks you for information you will most likely respond with the technical information on how they can do something.

If someone asks me for information I will most likely give them a link to information that someone else published or the price, part number and description of the product they are looking for.

Perhaps you can see why I will not "Bust the piggy bank, and buy a big monitor" - because I would have to buy TEN big monitors. 

You may think I have absolutely no need for 13 computers and you would be 100% correct. I don't need them but I found a way that I can have them at a price I can afford and I wanted them - so I bought them.

I might add that I have wired everything (house, camper, caboose, shop etc.) for wired and wireless Ethernet and I did it with free telephone cables so it is like having telephones - I just put them wherever I thought I might want one and it cost nothing extra to use them plus there are probably enough spares that I will never need to buy another computer.

We simply do not think at all alike and that is what makes the world so interesting. It would be a truly dull place if we all thought alike. When you are 67 years old and find it very hard to read things written on high resolution monitors you just might change your outlook.

If this somehow sounds to anyone like I am bragging I would just point out that I think there are very few of us who could not afford to go out and buy several 5 year old $45.00 computers and $5.00 monitors. The reason I bought them all alike is that ALL of the parts are 100% compatible and interchangeable so if anything fails on any computer there will always be drop in parts available for them.

BTW Just for the heck of it I just went to your website. This monitor is set at 1280 x 1024 but for my eyes to read your website I have to set Explorer to 150% and this is what I get: 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../Greg3.JPG

I am sure that you will say I should switch to Firefox but I have tried Firefox and I simply do not like it. It may be better but it would require a significant effort to learn it and I am not interested or willing to spend any time at it. I do use Firefox when I go to a Yahoo forum on one computer (my wife's with Vista) because I have not been able to sign in to Yahoo on that computer for over a year with Explorer but I have no problem signing in with Firefox.

"(I get this all the time when helping people), you must take the responsibility" spoken just like an engineer and a very good example of why companies need salesmen as a buffer between the customer and the engineers.









Regards,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill. No big difference between using Firefox or Internet Explorer. One must b flexible and be able to use either or such as I do and I"m no guru. Later RJD


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I have gone to using Firefox for a few websites as IE just poops out on them. 
LAO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, I'm glad you got in touch with Bridgemasters, they seemed like nice guys the 3 times I have met them.

On the subject of screen resolution, my point was simply if you want to run a resolution way lower than the rest of the world, you need to be responsible to handle the downsides and "gotchas" of what you are doing.

Just to show some statistics, here's the resolutions of the people who visit my web site. The pictures on my site, are max 800 pixels wide, just like the max width here on this site.

Note: 62% of the people visiting my site are at 1280 pixels resolution or above! 











Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Ltotis, Wait until you see IE 9. It seems like some kind of a secret plot by Microsoft to make everybody on the internet go to FireFox. I downloaded the "beta" and everybody in the house hated it. It only lasted a couple of weeks before I uninstalled it... 

Greg, I'm glad to see that you fixed the problem with the blue stripe on the right side of your website. It looked like the photo above on my monitor also, with the text running into it, and I run 1600 x 900 resolution on 20" widescreens. 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did have a "Template" that did not scale well with certain browsers. I actually need to spice it up, but I invest more effort in new information. 

I run 1600 x 1200 at home (on 2nd screen) but 1920 x 1200 at work, will be updating home computers with nice samsung 23" monitors... they are still kind of expensive 1920 x 1080 is easy to find (because they are used in TV's). 

Anyway, if you look at my above chart, looks like very few people run low resolution anymore, and the higher horizontal resolutions are coming since TV is making them cheap. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

My 20" widescreens were under $100 each. I don't think you could ever buy a CRT that cheap, and definitely NOT a 19"... 

Robert


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02 Feb 2011 08:14 PM 
I did have a "Template" that did not scale well with certain browsers. I actually need to spice it up, but I invest more effort in new information. 

On the subject of screen resolution, my point was simply if you want to run a resolution way lower than the rest of the world, you need to be responsible to handle the downsides and "gotchas" of what you are doing.


Greg 


Posted By rdamurphy on 02 Feb 2011 08:09 PM 
Greg, I'm glad to see that you fixed the problem with the blue stripe on the right side of your website. It looked like the photo above on my monitor also, with the text running into it, and I run 1600 x 900 resolution on 20" widescreens. 

Robert 

Hi Greg,

Computer technology has passed me by in the 11 years since I retired and I no longer have any need to keep current. I stay with XP because I am comfortable with it and I don't want to spend the time and effort learning or money on upgrading to Vista or 7 plus my old software licenses are for multiple installations and I could not afford and don't need multiple licenses for current software. Even though the State had wiped all the hard drives on the computers that I purchased I could still restore XP Professional without any expense or problems because the State had left the original XP license sticker with the registration codes on them. They are now all re-registered with Microsoft under their original XP Pro licenses.

I think we may be talking at cross purposes regarding screen resolutions. In many environments (often off the internet) I do not have a zoom capability and my only option (regardless of monitor capability) is to set the resolution to 640 x 480 so I can read what is on the screen. One example is when I go to my daughters shop where I cannot read her program to set it up unless I first set the resolution to 640 x 480. Once I am done I have to reset it back to high resolution because with her eyes she does not need 640 x 480.

In other environments (such as your website or other websites such as MLS when I am using Explorer) it works fine for me to have the monitor set to a high resolution (small print) because I can zoom in with Explorer up to 150% if necessary for me to read the website. 

My problem with your site was not having to scroll - it was my inability to read the printing when I zoomed in - it was always the blue stripe on the right as per the first emails I sent to you. Perhaps I did not explain it correctly or perhaps you misread what I was saying.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../Greg1.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../Greg2.JPG

I think you may have thought that I was complaining about the scrolling when I was talking about the blue stripe which would not go away regardless of the resolution because I was having to zoom in to read the printing. Perhaps that is the problem others were having as well. I could cut and paste the print into Word and read everything without the blue stripe getting in the way.

There is another visual problem I have (probably age related) in that I can look at something and yet not see something that is right in front of me. It is a sort of lack of recognition of familiar objects. Quite often I will put something down on a desk right in front of me and when I go to pick it up again I have a hard time finding it.

When someone has difficulty reading something or finding something (such as Bridge-Masters email address) it can lead to a very negative reaction (at least in my case) to be told by someone else who does not share the same inconveniences that they have a "problem" and they should spend their money to fix "their problem."

I might add that there is a lot more to monitor resolutions than the highest resolution a monitor is capable of. In many cases a monitor that is capable of higher resolutions does a very poor job of displaying lower resolutions while other monitors have a much better ability to display a variety of resolutions with very good clarity in the various resolutions. I found this out the hard way years ago when I bought a couple of virtually identical Toshiba laptops except for one having a higher resolution screen.

As it turned out I hardly ever use the higher resolution laptop because it does a terrible job of displaying 640 x 480 which I need to read a lot of things. Instead I most often use the lower resolution Toshiba because its has a good higher resolution but also does a very good job with 640 x 480 which is the resolution easiest for my eyes to read.

Resolution numbers by themselves do not mean a lot and often it is not until we take something home with us that we find out (sometimes much later) what the specifications leave out.

Regards,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Speaking of Engineers vs. the World, this happened to me yesterday as I was leaving work. 

I was walking down a hallway toward a normally closed door. The door was being held open by a doorstop. Someone I don't know was standing in the door and he looked at me as I passed and asked, 
"Do you know why this door is open?"
"Yes," I replied. "That door stop." 
The guy laughed. I had answered his question, completely and accurately, but that didn't really answer his question, now did it?! I thought it was funny...and it is proof that I am an engineer!! 

And I pointed at it as I continued on my way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry I can comprehend everything you said. 

Unfortunately, the rest of the Internet has not (and will not) "freeze in time" for you. That means you will still encounter problems seeing various web sites. 

About my site: basically the "reported" resolution can affect how things are displayed. It may very well be that while my site is fine in 1280 x 1024, your "native setting" of 640 x 480 is what is "reported" and zooming by the browser does not affect that. 

In any case, as I stated, your "fight" is not with me, but the Internet and just plain progress. I have had to retire several perfectly good laptops because the programs I need to run won't fit visually on the screens due to low resolution. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 03 Feb 2011 08:05 AM 
Jerry,

Speaking of Engineers vs. the World, this happened to me yesterday as I was leaving work. 

I was walking down a hallway toward a normally closed door. The door was being held open by a doorstop. Someone I don't know was standing in the door and he looked at me as I passed and asked, 
"Do you know why this door is open?"
"Yes," I replied. "That door stop." 
The guy laughed. I had answered his question, completely and accurately, but that didn't really answer his question, now did it?! I thought it was funny...and it is proof that I am an engineer!! 

And I pointed at it as I continued on my way.




Hi Mark,

What a perfect example of how engineers think.

I like engineers. They were my favorite type of customers to work with because their thought process is so logical and their questions were so clearly defined that solutions were much easier come up with for them.

Perhaps another way of describing the difference between engineers and salesmen is that if Home Depot hired both an engineer and a salesman and put both of them in the hardware department the engineer would be selling 1/4" drills and the salesman would be selling 1/4" holes. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Feb 2011 08:25 AM 
Jerry I can comprehend everything you said. 

Unfortunately, the rest of the Internet has not (and will not) "freeze in time" for you. That means you will still encounter problems seeing various web sites. 

I have had to retire several perfectly good laptops because the programs I need to run won't fit visually on the screens due to low resolution. 

Regards, Greg 
Hi Greg,

The wonderful thing the internet and about being retired is that for every website that is a problem for me there are plenty of others that work fine with my computers and monitors. I just don't go to websites where I encounter "problems."

Unless and until Microsoft chooses to stop supporting XP and hackers succeed in destroying computers running it I will be happy to stay with it. By the same token as long as I stay with XP the drivers for my old monitors and printers they will continue to work.

If I was in a very small minority (getting older along with weakening eyes and loss of visual dexterity) the internet world would indeed move on without me. I suspect the opposite is true and that a growing segment of the internet population is made up of others like me who have a need for 640 x 480 resolution whether that is a monitor setting or a magnification issue. I seriously doubt that there are many monitors out there that are unable to display much higher than 640 x 480 (I don't think I own one).

Actually it is not about me at all. If I really had to I would go out and buy better computers, software and monitors but the internet and the internet sites are nothing more to me than a source of convenience, information, communication and entertainment. My current software does everything I could want to do with it and there is nothing on the internet that I would miss that much if I had to do without it.

By the time the internet or Microsoft eventually force me away from my current monitors I'll be able to either go to Walmart or to State surplus and pick up ever cheaper high resolution wide screen monitors.

You have a job and you have technical things you choose to do that demand greater performance to meet your needs and desires. There is nothing that I have to do for myself or for anyone else so there is no need for me to change anything. It is sort of like HDTV. I have it but 90% of what is available is of far less than 1080P and I can get 4 times the storage on my DVR's by not recording in HD. I have some small inexpensive HDTV's that I watch most of the time but for the house and elsewhere we still use our 20+ year old non-HD TV's. All the predictions that everyone was going to be forced into HDTV proved groundless.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, I'm not saying my web site is 100% representative, but you need to look again at those figures. Look at the resolutions again. 62% are at or OVER 1280 pixels horizontally. 

I was never talking about XP, only about seeing sites on browsers and the problems running in low resolution cause (I have XP on the majority of my computers) 

I'm only talking about what happens when you run this low a resolution and how virtually no one else does, so there is a better solution, as I outlined earlier. 

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Feb 2011 12:28 PM 
Jerry, I'm not saying my web site is 100% representative, but you need to look again at those figures. Look at the resolutions again. 62% are at or OVER 1280 pixels horizontally. 

Greg 

Hi Greg,

I understand what you are saying and I do not dispute your figures. I am simply unconcerned with what the rest of the world is doing. 

I get up up in the morning, have tea/coffee with my wife, wander out here and swap memory cards in the game camera, look to see what critters came around during the night, fiddle around until the lights and chime tell me the critters are outside, watch TV and or the critters until dark thirty and then have dinner with my wife. Things like monitor resolutions just have no priority for me as I can always find whatever it is that I am looking for with the equipment I have.

We just have different priorities and outlooks on life.

Regards,

Jerry


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 03 Feb 2011 03:32 PM 
I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED. 

Hello Pete,

Just as a pilot cannot hijack his own airplane the person who starts a topic cannot be accused of hijacking his own topic. Actually there is very little to hijack from a topic that does nothing more than make an announcement that a new product has begun to arrive. 

When I started this topic the title was self explanatory:

*New Aristo PCC Trolleys are in stock*

My first post stated 

*"It is too early for a review but they should arrive within a week or two. Meanwhile, after checking the Aristo website, I found the other PCC Trolleys are also in stock at Aristo."*

Hours after I started this topic someone else received his PCC Trolley and started a topic reviewing his PCC Trolley. Since my trolleys did not arrive until some time later I saw no point in having another topic reviewing the PCC Trolleys in similar detail. Considering that there is the other topic and both Dave Bodnar and George Shreyer have both professionally reviewed the PCC Trolleys I see no need for yet another topic reviewing the PCC Trolley so this topic has drifted whichever way it has with no objection from me - the originator of the topic.

I noticed where you commented on the other PCC Trolley topics so there is no need to post links to them for you.

On the other hand if you have any specific questions about the PCC Trolleys that have not been answered to your satisfaction elsewhere either I or someone else here will be quite happy to try to assist you.

As for my CTA Trolleys they arrived, I ran them, I liked them and I just built a shelf up to put them on. That pretty much concludes my "review" of the PCC Trolleys.

Jerry


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## fred j (Jan 12, 2011)

Posted By pete on 03 Feb 2011 03:32 PM 
I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED. 
I agree Pete,
Seems like a wasted thread
Not even close to being on topic.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By fred j on 03 Feb 2011 06:52 PM 
I agree Pete,
Seems like a wasted thread
Not even close to being on topic.










Threads are no better or worse than the contributions everyone makes to them. If you have something to contribute you are most welcome to contribute it and if you have any questions you would like to ask you are welcome to ask them.

The box the PCC Trolleys came in said "Ready to Run" which is exactly what I was looking for. I never had any intention of taking my trolleys apart and adding anything to them as others have done.

There are no rules or obligations for anyone who elects to start a topic so if you wish to rate the topic based on what you found here as







you are welcome to do so but by the same token your lack of any sort of contribution to this topic would also rate a







would it not? You arrived, you gave nothing and you received nothing. Sounds fair to me.









As for being on topic the trolleys were in stock so the topic had served its purpose with the very first post. The topic was an announcement of an event that had occurred. Anything since has been no more or less than whatever anyone felt like discussing. 

About the only other thing I can think of to add about the trolleys is that I finally got around to putting up a shelf for them.










The trolleys arrived, they look nice, they run nice, I am happy with them and they now have somewhere to sit. That's the extent of my interest in them. 

I don't understand folks who visit a topic, make no contributions to the topic, ask no questions and slam the door on their way out. Maybe its a sort of "Kilroy was here" (or kill joy?).

Cheers,

Jerry


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry i asked questions, i got answers i enjoyed the information i got from all the post about the pcc trolleys.I did not slam the door. This web site has a ton of great information and great members. I did not mean to upset you or anyone else by what i said. You and others helped me make the decision to buy a pcc trolley.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 04 Feb 2011 08:57 AM 
Jerry I did not mean to upset you or anyone else by what i said. You and others helped me make the decision to buy a pcc trolley. 

Hello Pete, 
While your comments were part of the reason for my response they were not the primary reason for my response (I was not quoting you).

Not long ago someone started a topic about what happened to all those who used to post on MLS and no longer do so. I happen to be one of those long time (life) members who does not post often and I know several other long time MLSers who seldom if ever post here anymore. Speaking for myself and those I have talked to, the most often mentioned reasons for not posting on MLS (or other forums) is a general lack of courtesy and respect for everyone - especially for those one may not agree with. Everyone has something of value to offer and often we learn the most from those we have the least in common with.

The one thing we have in common is that we buy whatever it is that we buy with our own money with the singular purpose of having fun with our large scale trains. We all started out as newbies and we got a lot of help from others as we developed our knowledge and skills so we feel a responsibility to try to help those now entering the hobby just as we were given help when we needed it.

No matter how much an individual may spend or how large his layout may happen to be there will be many others who spend a lot more and have larger layouts and many others who spend a lot less and have smaller layouts - all of whom have every bit as much fun with the hobby. The one thing that stands out most among the old timers is that we/they mainly enjoy the company of other large scalers without any thought given to how much money the other guy is spending or how big or little his layout may happen to be.

All this changes when one posts something favorable about a particular brand, product or power source on MLS and some other forums. I and others who like LGB quit posting about LGB years ago because we got fed up with those who hate LGB and attacked anything favorable said about LGB. Lately most of those I know who like Aristo-Craft no longer post about Aristo-Craft because we got fed up with being attacked whenever we said something positive about Aristo-Craft including a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft. The Alpha Dogs win and we go away because we have reached a point with our knowledge, skills and layouts that we don't need to tolerate the BS.

A lot is posted about what is wrong with everything. It is almost as if there is something questionable about the poster if he buys something and likes it and does not post a lot of stuff about what was wrong with a product.

Of course there is almost always something "wrong" with every product - especially a new product where folks have not figured out if they want it or if it fits with their concept for their layout.

Perhaps the bigger question should not be "what is wrong with it" as much as "what is right with it." After all if you look at the following one thing will stand out:

PCC Trolleys, Ten Wheelers, FA-1, PA-1, E8, NW-2, GP-38, GP-7, Pacific, Hudson, Big Boy, Forney, Challenger, Mogul, GP-40, Mikado, 2-4-0, 4-4-0, F7, F3, 0-4-0, Stainz, RDC the list goes on and on.

The one thing that stands out is that in every case there is most likely only a single manufacturer who offers it and if there happen to be two manufacturers the item is usually of a different scale or with significant differences in price, quality and features.

In other words it is less a question of how good is the Aristo-Craft PCC Trolley or the Bachmann Ten Wheeler or the USA PA-1 etc. as much as how bad do you really want one?

Aristo-Craft and St. Aubins got together and produced the CTA PCC Trolley. It is very different from the actual CTA PCC Trolleys but for someone from Chicago (like me) it happens to be the ONLY CTA trolley anyone has ever produced so I bought it. Others may like the Ten Wheelers or 4-4-0's and Bachmann is the only manufacturer of them. I happen to be somewhat modeling railroads that ran in Chicago and Arkansas. Only USAT makes a MoPac PA-1 and GP-40 and C&NW NW-2 so I have those just as Aristo-Craft was the only manufacturer to offer Cotton Belt GP-?, Rock Island GP-? and C&NW RDC so I have them. I run the LGB locos that came with MTS decoders with MTS and the Aristo locos that came with a PNP interface with Revolutions but many could have given me dozens of reasons not to buy anything or to buy what they like instead of what I like.

Every time someone bashes a topic or attacks someone for posting something positive about a product, brand or power source that just might be the final straw and the poster might think "this is not worth the effort" and join the ranks of those who no longer post on MLS. Will they be missed? Maybe and maybe not but they will have more time to do other things that are more fun than having someone tell them they are wasting their (free) time.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Pete, 

While your comments were part of the reason for my response they were not the primary reason for my response (I was not quoting you). 

Not long ago someone started a topic about what happened to all those who used to post on MLS and no longer do so. I happen to be one of those long time (life) members who does not post often and I know several other long time MLSers who seldom if ever post here anymore. Speaking for myself and those I have talked to, the most often mentioned reasons for not posting on MLS (or other forums) is a general lack of courtesy and respect for everyone - especially for those one may not agree with. Everyone has something of value to offer and often we learn the most from those we have the least in common with. 

The one thing we have in common is that we buy whatever it is that we buy with our own money with the singular purpose of having fun with our large scale trains. We all started out as newbies and we got a lot of help from others as we developed our knowledge and skills so we feel a responsibility to try to help those now entering the hobby just as we were given help when we needed it. 

No matter how much an individual may spend or how large his layout may happen to be there will be many others who spend a lot more and have larger layouts and many others who spend a lot less and have smaller layouts - all of whom have every bit as much fun with the hobby. The one thing that stands out most among the old timers is that we/they mainly enjoy the company of other large scalers without any thought given to how much money the other guy is spending or how big or little his layout may happen to be. 

All this changes when one posts something favorable about a particular brand, product or power source on MLS and some other forums. I and others who like LGB quit posting about LGB years ago because we got fed up with those who hate LGB and attacked anything favorable said about LGB. Lately most of those I know who like Aristo-Craft no longer post about Aristo-Craft because we got fed up with being attacked whenever we said something positive about Aristo-Craft including a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft. The Alpha Dogs win and we go away because we have reached a point with our knowledge, skills and layouts that we don't need to tolerate the BS. 

A lot is posted about what is wrong with everything. It is almost as if there is something questionable about the poster if he buys something and likes it and does not post a lot of stuff about what was wrong with a product. 

Of course there is almost always something "wrong" with every product - especially a new product where folks have not figured out if they want it or if it fits with their concept for their layout. 

Perhaps the bigger question should not be "what is wrong with it" as much as "what is right with it." After all if you look at the following one thing will stand out: 

PCC Trolleys, Ten Wheelers, FA-1, PA-1, E8, NW-2, GP-38, GP-7, Pacific, Hudson, Big Boy, Forney, Challenger, Mogul, GP-40, Mikado, 2-4-0, 4-4-0, F7, F3, 0-4-0, Stainz, RDC the list goes on and on. 

The one thing that stands out is that in every case there is most likely only a single manufacturer who offers it and if there happen to be two manufacturers the item is usually of a different scale or with significant differences in price, quality and features. 

In other words it is less a question of how good is the Aristo-Craft PCC Trolley or the Bachmann Ten Wheeler or the USA PA-1 etc. as much as how bad do you really want one? 

Aristo-Craft and St. Aubins got together and produced the CTA PCC Trolley. It is very different from the actual CTA PCC Trolleys but for someone from Chicago (like me) it happens to be the ONLY CTA trolley anyone has ever produced so I bought it. Others may like the Ten Wheelers or 4-4-0's and Bachmann is the only manufacturer of them. I happen to be somewhat modeling railroads that ran in Chicago and Arkansas. Only USAT makes a MoPac PA-1 and GP-40 and C&NW NW-2 so I have those just as Aristo-Craft was the only manufacturer to offer Cotton Belt GP-?, Rock Island GP-? and C&NW RDC so I have them. I run the LGB locos that came with MTS decoders with MTS and the Aristo locos that came with a PNP interface with Revolutions but many could have given me dozens of reasons not to buy anything or to buy what they like instead of what I like. 

Every time someone bashes a topic or attacks someone for posting something positive about a product, brand or power source that just might be the final straw and the poster might think "this is not worth the effort" and join the ranks of those who no longer post on MLS. Will they be missed? Maybe and maybe not but they will have more time to do other things that are more fun than having someone tell them they are wasting their (free) time. 

Regards, 

Jerry 




Add Reply 

Jerry, 

You have said something many of us "old timers" have felt here for the past two years. Courtesy and civility don't seem to exist on the forum anymore. I know many of the folks who don't post here anymore and it's because of the reasons you note. I don't know what has happened here, but it isn't good. Just my two cents.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 05 Feb 2011 08:34 AM 
Jerry, 

You have said something many of us "old timers" have felt here for the past two years. Courtesy and civility don't seem to exist on the forum anymore. I know many of the folks who don't post here anymore and it's because of the reasons you note. I don't know what has happened here, but it isn't good. Just my two cents. 

Hi Gary,

If I had to sum it up I would say that competitiveness (aggression) has replaced courtesy (cooperation).

If that is the message newbies are getting it is a cancer that can destroy the hobby for all of us. Model trains are accepted to be a declining hobby. In my opinion it has been the "coffee shop friendliness" of the forums that brought us large scalers together and helped this hobby to grow. The fact that I can be in rural Arkansas and share the fun of this hobby with you in California along with others in Florida, Alaska, Canada, England, Australia, and as far away as Hong Kong goes a long way to make up for the lack of local hobby shops and clubs where we might otherwise have met and visited with each other.

We might discuss the relative differences between your steam power and my track power but we would do so in fun and with courtesy and respect for each other.

When MLS discussions turn into attacks from the proponents of one brand vs another brand, model vs model, steam vs battery vs track power vs DCC vs MTS vs DCS vs Revolution all that happens is that older MLSers get fed up with the negative comments and attitudes and go away looking for a friendlier place to hang out.

It is not so much a problem for us "old timers" because we have the knowledge we need and we still have our old friends around the world and we can visit each other at train shows, via private emails or phone calls etc. 

It is more of a problem for the current generation of newbies because they are left with a skeleton of the support and information that was available to us as we grew into the hobby. They end up with information that may be limited in depth or heavily biased because many of those with the greatest amount of experience and knowledge no longer are active on MLS.

Most of those I have the greatest respect for are long gone or post very infrequently.

Regards,

Jerry


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Very nicely summed up. Civility seems to be a thing of the past, and not just at MLS. I visit infrequently, post infrequently and am lettimg my paid membership lapse. (Sorry, Shad.) In the last two or three years there's just too much carping, sniping and flaming from folks who are legends in their own minds. 

I'll get my traction fix from other sources.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, my thoughts exactly. I'm doing what I always do: exactly what I want. I don't let the bastards keep me down. 

Edit: You know, I had typed out like 3 responses to this thread. Each one sounded more like a pity party. The reality is that if I want MLS to be different, I need to post and respond differently. Replying to all the snide comments and out right slander doesn't get me anywhere with my hobby. Sure, you have to defend your position sometimes, but some people just cannot see someone else's point of view.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Guys: your name calling (in the posts above): 

"bastards" 
"idiots" 
"alpha dog" 
"legends in their own minds" 


Puts you RIGHT in the company with the people you profess are the problem. 

You are making youselves just as bad when you resort to personal attacks. 

Personal attacks are against forum policy. 

Personally, I think that the self-regulation is gone from the site, with EVERYONE, not just the "elite" and the "good old boys". 

I will tell you this much: keep calling people names, keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back. That's NOT the way you solve problems. 

Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

When somebody posts a offensive message, simply ignore him. Eventually those folks will go away.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Feb 2011 01:43 PM 
Guys: your name calling (in the posts above): 

"bastards" 
"idiots" 
"alpha dog" 
"legends in their own minds" 


I will tell you this much: keep calling people names, keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back. 

Greg 




Hello Greg,

I think you are missing the entire point. No one is referring to anyone specific with perhaps the exception of me.

Who is being called a "*******?" I don't have a clue and I doubt that Mark is referring to anyone in particular. I happen to know Mark and he is not the sort of guy who runs around calling anyone names.

Who is being called an "Alpha Dog?" I said it and I was not referring to anyone specific when I said it. Instead I was referring to a "pack mentality" that seems to be creeping into MLS. This goes along with my suggestion of an aggressive attitude such as exhibited by packs of dogs. I would freely apply the "pack mentality" to any and every group that takes a position that theirs is the only solution and that attacks anyone who has a different preference. I have seen that exhibited by several groups including groups that favor products that I buy and like. It is my opinion that whatever group it happens to include is harming the hobby by denying those with different opinions from expressing their right to have a different opinion.

"Legends in their own minds" is quite a common expression and once again nothing was said that to me suggests that it was addressed to any particular person or persons. 

That leaves my comment about "a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft." You know precisely what and who I am referring to. I think I was being generous to suggest that they were idiots (uninformed individuals who do not know anything about me and who were ignorantly saying false things about me) because the alternative would be that they did know that what they were saying was nothing but lies which makes them intentionally malicious rather than ignorant. Which do you think is the correct description of them?

You said " keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back." You are right. It was once again recently suggested that I am somehow paid by Aristo-Craft and just as you predicted - I stuck back. You seem to choose not to notice where these attacks have originated.

When I started his thread this question was asked by one person"

07 Jan 2011 02:19 PM 
"Where can we see a picture of what they look like."

So I tried to help him by copying and posting photos that I got from the Aristo-Craft Forum and below is what was later posted elsewhere by our







friend:

11 Jan 2011 09:17 PM
"I looked at the 2 other threads on the PCC car and they really weren't helpful at all.
The one with the pictures, I assume the guy works for Aristocraft since he put all
the pictures and part #s in the thread and doesnt even own one?"

The same







guy later complains that this thread was a waste of his time.

I think it would take an idiot not to see that I posted the pictures in a direct response to another MLSer's request for such pictures and to then say this thread was not helpful at all. I have no reason to think that he is malicious. If he wants to voice his displeasure at my topic and then to suggest that I work for Aristo-Craft (as if there would be something wrong with it if I did), as per your own suggestion, it lead me to respond by suggesting that he (and others who have made similar false claims about me) might be idiots. Who among us has not been called an idiot many times in our lives (often when we did something stupid that deserved our being called an idiot)?

It has nothing to do with the "elite" or the "good old boys" and everything to do with why people are leaving MLS.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually George they tend not to go away. 
LAo


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just as a sample about what Greg and Jerry are talking about. Go over to the last response from Mik to my post about UPS, FEDEX deliveries( OOOOOps...errr.....UPS). I rest my case!!


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Just to be perfectly clear on my above quoted phrase, I was not talking about you or anyone specific. It is an old phrase that I read on my college professors desk. He had it etched on a mug that was given to him at some point. You've missed my point enitrely, and I am really sorry you are unable or unwilling to try and understand the bigger picture of what I was saying. 


ALL: I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE A NAME. "Don't let the bastards get you down" is an old phrase, not penned by me: Origin

Have fun playing trains with your kids tonight guys! I know I will!

Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm well aware of the commonness of the phrase. 

But it definitely depicts "the opposition" as bastards. 

It's just not constructive, it's not helpful, and just causes problems. 

By the way, that phrase is usually attributed to the book by Margaret Atwood: The Handmaid's Tale, which was published in 1985, and has a latin translation of "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum". This is NOT an old phrase. 

It may come from "ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM" which is MOCK latin, originating in world war II, again, not very old compared to many other phrases in common usage. Carborundum is a hard mineral, and the mock latin is taken to mean "grind you down". 

See Wikipedia for a reasonable explanation: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum
*

Read with particular interest: 

_Illegitimi_ suggests illegitimate to the English speaker, but it is certainly *not *the usual Latin word for '*******', nor does it carry the same negative connotation as in English: it was never used as a general insult as the English term '*******' still is.
It also should be kept in mind that '*bastards*' is often used in English as a generic derogatory term, not necessarily relating to the marital status of one's parents 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

As far as the history of the phrase is concerned, I believe I gave you the history of it as it relates to me. I've added the links I used when researching the history of the phrase after the fact. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/116900.html


The thread took a turn and I responded because I felt the same way so I responded. Some might have read that as crude humor, which is what I intended. There have been and are currently many many threads where I see general attacks (Kool aid drinker comes to mind readily) on others and even more specific attacks on individuals, yet that goes unnoticed or unrecognized. Or, are you really saying that it is time for all of that bull spit to end? I wholeheartedly agree with that and I believe that to be the sentiment which caused me to post initially. 

I really can't help it if you decided that I was talking about you, when I was not. Also, I find the tone of your reply to me condescending. I don't appreciate your implication that I am deliberately causing a problem, when in fact, I am empathising with the other two people on the thread about the state of this website now versus what it was like just a few years ago. 

The fact that I had to reply three times on this subject makes me sad. I am sorry if I offended anyone. Trying to have some fun and I guess I need to remember that not everyone will read things the same way. Have fun guys


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's my opinion it's not helpful, it's not condescending... you cannot make the "trap" that anything not in agreement is wrong. That's the old "bashing" argument, anything negative on a product is bashing. 

I don't think the attacks, and calling names and kool-aid references are helpful either. 

But you are empathizing with people who are engaged in name calling, etc. How can that be helpful or right? 

It's one thing to talk about how things have gotten worse. 

It's different when you feel justified in calling "the bad guys" idiots, bastards, etc. ANY names at all. 

You are right at the same level doing that. The problem here is you (Mark) are justifying (as far as I can tell) the EXACT thing that people are saying is wrong. 

A wise moderator on this forum introduced me to the "three rule" test, attributed to Socrates. It's a good thing to live by. 

Maybe I'm not being helpful in pointing out these things, but I'm hoping that the following statement might give someone and "a ha" moment: 

Making personal attacks on other because others are making personal attacks will get you nowhere, and you are no better than "them" when you engage in the same thing you are upset that they are doing. 

Doesn't this make sense? 

Don't worry about offending me, it's not the point. 

The point is I object to ANYONE making personal attacks. It's supposed to be a forum rule. We all know that most of the moderators are tired of policing us. So why can't the majority just abstain? Set an example? 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

There was a surprise package when I went up to the house for dinner. FedEx had left it on the doorstep and my wife found it and brought it in but I could not think what it could be. 

When I opened it I remembered...











I had forgotten all about ordering the Bridge Masters track cleaning car.

Unfortunately when I ordered it and asked if I could get it cut for a coupler mount on both ends I was told that was not possible. That would have made it a lot nicer for my purposes as I could have put a hook and loop coupler on one end and a knuckle coupler on the other end.

As we are expecting an Arkansas Blizzard tonight (perhaps as much as 3 - 4 inches of snow) it may be awhile before I get a chance to try it out.

It looks sort of dull compared with the bright blue of the car on their website. I did not know there were different colors. I also noticed the design is somewhat different from the one on their website as this car has two screws on each side holding the cleaning block. Still, as long as it works and does not rust I will be happy with it. Shipping brought the net cost up to $75.00.

It is already obsolete in that I've ordered replacement Aristo-Craft stainless steel track and turnouts to replace all the brass track and turnouts on the caboose layout but it should serve as a back up for the LGB Track Cleaning Locos on the crawl space and garage layouts.

It will be interesting to see how it performs compared with the G Clean track cleaning car. There were no instructions as to whether to push or pull it. The G Clean Car instructions specifically said to push their car rather than to pull it but I suspect that a hook and loop coupler (as provided) might have a tendency to be pushed up and over a connecting hook and loop coupler. For that reason and the fact that the car would not accept a hook with the loop I will probably replace the coupler with an LGB Knuckle Coupler and perhaps put a Kadee on the other end.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, push it. Take a file and cut the same type of notch in the other end, so you can have 2 couplers. 

My car has 2 screws on each side, and my site shows it that way too, maybe you are remembering a similar, but different product? 

The green scotchbrite pads that I found at Home Depot, in a pack of 8, 9" x 6" work fine, each pad can be cut into 3 pieces, so one pack gave me 24 pads! 

I use mine on SS track, removes dirt, grime, ants, sap, dust. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry: The car will still be useful even on SS track. I just cut a notch on the other end and also enlarged the other end to except the Aristo Coupler. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Feb 2011 07:54 AM 
Jerry, push it. Take a file and cut the same type of notch in the other end, so you can have 2 couplers. 

My car has 2 screws on each side, and my site shows it that way too, maybe you are remembering a similar, but different product? 

The green scotchbrite pads that I found at Home Depot, in a pack of 8, 9" x 6" work fine, each pad can be cut into 3 pieces, so one pack gave me 24 pads! 

I use mine on SS track, removes dirt, grime, ants, sap, dust. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

Give me a file and I can ruin anything. I will just drill and tap the other end and put a Kadee coupler on it as I did with the G Clean car.










After I received my track cleaner I went back and looked at the photo you posted here and as you said it too has two screws per side but the "official" picture on the Bridge-Masters site shows what is probably an earlier model. It really looks as if they either are using the same guy to build theirs or they copied the G Clean car but used a different cleaner. I can see benefits to both. The G Clean car uses a hard LGB 5004 pad with no loose strands that might hang up on sharp edges such as when passing through turnouts or gaps in the rails but the Bridge-Master car is significantly shorter which may help keep it from going off the rail on sharp curves (this is not a problem that I have experienced).

Another potential may exist for the Bridge-Master car which would be to see if I can hide it inside a caboose, boxcar or other covered car (remove the wheels, frame etc. and mount the cleaning block inside). Has anyone tried this and been successful? I tried it with the LGB 5004 block but never did get it to work.









As a retired 3M sales rep I still have access to certain 3M products at very good prices. I still prefer the 3M 7448 pads and I have enough of them to last a long time - especially when cut down to the size of the track cleaning car. I will be less concerned about microscopic scratches in stainless steel track but I still believe in using the least abrasive material needed for a job. If I do find the 7448's not abrasive enough (which would really surprise me) I can always go up to the 3M/Scotch 7447 which I have more than I will ever need of. Scotch-Brite™ Ultra Fine Hand Pad 7448, 6 in x 9 in 


You and RJ are right. I will probably keep the new car with this layout and perhaps use on the main outdoor layout to get rid of tree sap etc.

The design may also make it readily adaptable to use with a soft cleaning pad to (with solvent) to remove oily residue because I have been thinking that once I expand the layout I may bring out the Aristo live Steam Mike and finally start running it.

This is actually related to the PCC Trolleys because it was the purchase of the PCC Trolleys and my deciding that I will run them on this layout that was the final straw convincing me to expand the size of the layout and to replace all the brass track and turnouts with Aristo Stainless Steel ones.

I will be running the Trolleys between the town and the sawmill.










Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I've tried it Jerry but did not work either for the Bridge works car. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 02 Feb 2011 10:28 AM 


The computers did not have keyboards but I bought 15 IBM keyboards (never used) for $15 ($1.00 each). 
Jerry


Sometimes it pays to be cheap.

I had attached a (boating) drink holder to the wall next to the computer work station. Not wanting to drill a hole in the wall I had used the adhesive backing that the holder came with.

Today I was sitting here typing and the drink holder fell from the wall dumping a full (open) can of root beer all over and into my keyboard. I have been working with computers since 1982 and I have NEVER put a drink where it could spill onto a keyboard - until now. 

What could have been a total disaster (especially if I was using a laptop) turned into a non-event. I unplugged the keyboard, went to the sink and poured water over the keyboard, turned the keyboard upside down and shook the water out and then plugged it back into the computer - and it is working perfectly!!!

Of course it was a totally dumb thing to do to pour water over the keyboard but to have left the root beer inside the keyboard would assuredly have caused significant problems and after all the new IBM keyboard had only cost $1.00 so if my water fix failed I could have trashed this keyboard and gotten another $1.00 one.

I guess I will drill a couple of holes in the wall after all.

Jerry


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 12 Feb 2011 05:36 PM 
{snip...}[/i] Today I was sitting here typing and the drink holder fell from the wall dumping a full (open) can of root beer all over and into my keyboard. I have been working with computers since 1982 and I have NEVER put a drink where it could spill onto a keyboard - until now. {snip...}[/i] 
Hehehe, I did that once too. Was in a hotel room working late and knocked a 32 oz. soft drink over and flooded the keyboard on my IBM laptop, I mean like a tub filled to the brim. Then thinking quick I pulled the power cord out of the wall receptacle, only to realize that the laptop just switched over to battery power. So I grabbed the laptop and just turned it over and dumped all the soda out, continued to hold it upside down and released the battery. Then I removed all the key caps from the keyboard and mopped up all the remaining liquid, took the key caps into the bathroom and washed them off with hot water, patted them dry in a towel and made sure as best I could no moisture remained. Put all the keys back on. Plugged the wall-wart power supply back in with no battery, and I couldn't believe it the darned thing worked fine.

Although, about four days later I ran into a couple of the keys sticking because of the dried soda syrup and had to disassemble the laptop so I could flush the keyboard mylar with Trichloroethane (methyl chloroform) and clean all the sticky stuff out, but after that never had any further problem. Some times one just gets by on plain dumb luck.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By SteveC on 12 Feb 2011 07:13 PM 


Some times one just gets by on plain dumb luck.










How true that is.

Jerry


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