# Scratch Building With Steel



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

I've seen posts before where using sheet steel was mentioned for build things like locomotive cabs. Around here galvinized sheet steel is readily available in thinner guages.
Has any one done much with sheet steel? Any luck silver soldeing it? Anyone used galvinized. I know the fumes from torch cutting and welding can be nasty.
How about weathering?


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Chrisb,

I assume your talking some scale size like 1:29 or 1:20. If so 
I have a couple of questions for you.

What do you mean by " thinner gauges" of galvi? thinner than 26Ga? 

Why would you want to use Silver Solder on galv. sheet stock?

Why would you use a torch to either cut or weld?

Weathering would not be a problem, if by weathering you mean paint 
not natural rust.

Just curious
Rick Marty


----------



## Guest (Nov 10, 2008)

Posted By chrisb on 11/09/2008 3:27 PM
Anyone used galvinized. I know the fumes from torch cutting and welding can be nasty.





First time I see you ever cut or weld galvinized sheet stock I am leaving. Stuff can and will kill you.
Use bending brake and saw.
Toad


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Working with thin gauge sheet steel is pretty difficult in a modelling environment. I too would warn you away from using galvanised steel, either welding brazing or soldering... The zinc will evaporate and the only real cure for inhaled zinc is drinking massive amounts of milk while being rushed to hospital for emergency chelating treatment. I would recommend you use sheet brass and sheet aluminium for model work. Both can be soldered with ease -or epoxied. As to silver soldering steel it is fairly easy -but you do need to be absolutely sure that all surfaces are bright shiny and chemically clean. I use a 55% silver alloy called "Silver Flo 55" with the std flux of borax ground with olive oil you will need a temperature of around 700C (dull red in shade) to ensure liquidity of the joint. This is fairly easy to achieve with Propane /Air -but is far better with MAPP/ Air as the flame is far hotter and "cleaner". I use a Benz-o-matic bottle torch -which I am very happy with -the only problem being that the bottle gets progressively colder as you use it. There have been several times when the bottle has frozen to my gloves!!!

regards

ralph


----------



## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Ralph . . . . Do you have a source for the "Silver Flo 55" you mentioned? Thanks . . . . Ken


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

To be honest I am at a bit of a loss here! There are very few engineering stockists in the UK that do *not* stock Johnson Matthey solders!!!

Here is the web page with details of their silver solders:


http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/products-pages.asp?pageid=60&sectionid=3

The other common one that you find is their Easi Flo solder (which I find too liquid).


http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/products-pages.asp?pageid=61&sectionid=3 

regards

ralph


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

The majority of modellers from n right up to 7/8ths scale here in UK and continental Europe use nickel silver or brass sheet for their flatwork/platework. No doubt Ralph will tell you how to 'stick it together' properly. I have a small resistance soldering iron ot build the smaller models, but I leave the bigger modelling to Aster and Accucraft.

As has already been noted, using a cutting torch on galvanised sheet will probably kill you. Best not to, eh?

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

What about using cold rolled steel? I think galvanized or stainless steel would be too difficult to work with.


----------



## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

I use steel mostly for frames. If I have to solder then hot rolled steel (the black one) or drawn mild (the shiny) works best. If it is for something that is screwed together then galvinised is perfect. Much easier than brass. And cheaper. So far I haven't tried silver soldering only ordinary solder (the 2% silver sort).


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for repiles, I did not know that Aluminum sheet can be soldered. I've seen white metal type brazing rods for cast AL. 
Is this what you were refering to?


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By jimtyp on 11/10/2008 10:24 AM
What about using cold rolled steel? I think galvanized or stainless steel would be too difficult to work with.

I reckon that if Accucraft can use brass and nickel silver sheet to build a model as large as a K-36, then cold-rolled steel is a bit of an overkill. Just my $0.02.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Not sure what you mean by overkill? Cold Rolled Steel is really cheap and can even be found in hardware stores. It works like brass. It will rust if left to the elements but most folks paint whatever they are building. Can't beat the price, for example, comparing 22 gauge brass and 22 gauge cold rolled steel for a 36" x 48" sheet; cold rolled steel $25, brass $167 - prices are quotes from onlinemetals.com


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Cold rolled steel works very well. Actually it works better than hard sheet brass because it is more friendly to drill. It bends better too, since it does not spring as much. You can cut thin steel by sandwiching in between pieces of wood, use a fine blade and cutting oil. Hold the saw at a rather steep angle and let the blade do the cutting. It solders fine. Give it a good rub down with clean steel wool or a wire brush, wash in soapy water and dry. Use the low heat and "creep up" until the solder flows. Steel paints better than brass too.

As Ralph said, stay away from galvanized. Fumes are terrible and dangerous.


Steel is good stuff. Give it a try.

Bob


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

For small scale aluminium fabrication and repairs I use the rods made by Technoweld

http://www.aluminumrepair.com/?src=google&gclid=CLnDtfu-65YCFQWVMAodWiIBPw

I will admit my repairs might not be pretty -but it repaired the hole in my manifold perfectly well!!! 


regards

ralph


----------



## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not know that Aluminum sheet can be soldered.


I got a roll of this: http://www.elfaelektroonika.ee/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?artnr=82-912-13&lng=eng#!82-912-13 (the first that came up with google, no affiliation) but I haven't tried it yet.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Ole Toad Frog on 11/10/2008 12:41 AM
Posted By chrisb on 11/09/2008 3:27 PM
Anyone used galvinized. I know the fumes from torch cutting and welding can be nasty.





First time I see you ever cut or weld galvinized sheet stock I am leaving. Stuff can and will kill you.
Use bending brake and saw.
Toad



Toadster:

Calm down, Dude. Grab a cold one and let us reason together.









You're absolutely right, and I'm not arguing with you. Torching galvanized can be hazardous to your health.

Having said that, I've done it on several occasions, of necessity. All I had to repair with and too long a cut, and too heavy a gauge for snips. (I didn't have a scroll saw). What you do is go outside, where the air is moving. Use a big fan to make the air move if it isn't. Be very aware of eddy currents and don't take a deep breath. Just shallow ones. Tie a wet bandanna across your schnoz. It won't help, probably, but it'll make you feel better and the cool damp will enhance your sense of smell. (Does for me, anyway). If you smell something incredibly nasty, exhale fast and step back. You can always restart your cut. Finding used lungs at an affordable price is harder.

As for soldering it, all I ever used was lead solder. I filed/ground/got the zinc plating off farther than I needed it, and soldered to suit. This isn't so dangerous. I fixed the gaurds/guides on my bale loader this way. Except for the rust, my repairs lasted 'way better than the factory material.

I intend to try making some car bodies or engine cabs and whatnot from some leftover galvanized I've got. I think it'd be great to model a dented gon of some kind. I think I'll use handmade rivets, though.

DISCLAIMER: IF YOU DO TRY A TORCH, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN, BECAUSE THE STUFF IS VERY BAD FOR YOU TO BREATHE. TOADSTER AND RALPH ARE RIGHT.


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all,
Lots of interesting comments here on this subject.
Makes one wonder how a sheet metal shop could possibly stay in business if 
they couldn't weld or solder galvanize sheet without HAZMAT shutting 
down the operation.

There is no need to use a torch on any galvanized sheet. Material under 14Ga. can 
usually be shop cut, over 14 Ga most items can be ordered from the suppliers pre-cut
by their heavier duty shears. It is a real thrill to stand beside a shear that is lopping
off 10' long 1/2" plate, makes a little noise.

Welding galv. is done all the time, wire feed and traditional old stick being the most common
methods. Adaquate ventilation is of course a must as has been mentioned. 

The mention of not soldering galv. really left me puzzled. How else would you possibly make 
a water tight closure in architechtural sheet metal work (flashings) not to mention pans,
tubs, buckets, funnels, you name it. 

The zinc coating on galv metal has a melting point of just over 700 degrees F and a boiling 
point at about 1600 Degrees F, that is the point that it turns to thick white smoke and 
boils off into the air. Soft solders, tin lead mixes, have melting points ranging from about 350 Degrees F to 
just under 600 degrees F. depending on the mixture. The old standby 60/40 flows at about 400-450.

So normally the soldering is not hot enough to flow the zinc let alone vaporize it.
A more real worry would be the fumes from the muratic acid, used as flux, that is placed on the zinc to cut it 
prior to soldering. Lets don't even talk about the burning Salamoniac fumes produced when cleaning 
and tinning irons prior to soldering.

Of course the hobby room is a little different than the commercial shop and different rules apply but 
the laws of physics don't change. Benign fluxes are available that work perfectly on galv metal and don't
create objectionable fumes. 

Later
Rick Marty


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Rick,

Very glad you took time to post some facts. I've been turning the notion over in my head for several years about putting a vented hood in my upstairs shop. Now, I'm going to do it. Point of fact, I just sold my Jet torch setup to my son for a pittance. I'm going to get a cheap 'n dirty single stage one from my pals in China. I don't (won't) do precision work anymore.

I too have been pricing sheet brass, and hey, I'm old an got a bad heart! Sheesh, already. As one person pointed out, brass is lots more expensive than galv, or even mild steel.

It just seems to me that using thin mild steel is so much more cost effective--not to mention easier to work--that it's a wonder more guys aren't using it.

Again, thanks for the facts.

Les


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback. My main reason for looking at steel was availability. Copper appears to be rare now. You can still find step flashing but its expensive. I brought up galvinised as I thought non galvinsied steel sheets thininner than 18 guange were hard to find though i could be wrong.
Copper is easy to work with but I have trouble keeping pant on it.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Chris,

Some years ago I Googled several metal suppliers, asking for tin to make re-enactor dishes, cups, etc. I found two that would agree to ship me 'ends'. The big outfits like to deal in nothing less than entire rolls and up. But a few will sell a hobbyist 'ends', which are ends of rolls of varying gauges, widths, and thicknesses, and lengths. I found I could buy several dozen square feet for ~ $100/shipment. That might seem high, but on a sq. ft. basis it was very cheap. Bet you could resell some of the excess.

Hope this helps. And don't hesitate to try using mild steel. You might start a trend.

Les


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Les,

Yea, Tin sheet has been difficult to get in small quantities for several years. We used to use it mostly for drawer lining in pantries and
refurbishing antique dry sinks and pastry boards. Even 25 years ago we had to buy it by the pallet stack, the sheets were 4' sq and usually 26 ga.
I don't remember how many pounds to the pallet but the sheets were stacked about 6-8 inches high. I think light gauge tin would work very well
for something like steel boxcar or gondola sides because it would "oil can" very well. I would hate to have to buy a pallet now as all metal prices 
seem to be remaining very high.

Chrisb,
I would think that 18ga steel would be pretty heavy for use in large scale modeling unless you were talking about a frame or motor/gearbox mounts.
For things like boiler wrap and cab construction I would be looking at 26 ga or lighter. The most common sheet copper available in bulk is 10 oz, 16oz, 
and 32oz. Those ounces are per square foot and is how sheet copper is priced/sold at the retail level. With the prices of copper right now you might as well
use gold or platinum. Copper sheet is usually soft drawn and is not very rigid; bends, dings, and scratches very easy.


Maybe all of us aren't familiar with US standard gauges for sheet stock here is a quick review.

Galvanized metal, black iron both cold and hot rolled, and stainless steel are measured by US standard gauge for thickness up to about 10 Ga then it becomes plate.
Aluminum sheet is usually measured by decimal thickness, and copper is ounces per square foot like I said before. Brass is also usually measured by decimal thickness.

The most common gauges that would be available in a sheet metal shop/roofing shop are as follows

Galvanized metal
26 Ga---.0179
24 Ga---.0239
22 Ga---.0299
20 Ga---.0359
18 Ga---.0478
16 Ga---.0598

Black iron will run just a little thinner than the galv. because of the zinc coating. Believe it or not cold roll will generally mic out a little lighter than hot roll.
of the same gauge. Keep in mind that these gauge thicknesses are depended on mill tolerances and will vary slightly from mill to mill that is why they established 
a window of tolerances that could be classed as a particular gauge. Now days most sheets gauge out on the low end of said tolerances.

Most common gauges for stainless steel will be the same as the galvie and black sheet. For aluminum most well stocked shops will carry .025, .032, .040, .062
some times something as light as .019 can be found.

Now having said all that no damn telling what you might find at your local shop. Just my thoughts, but if I were building a cab/ boiler etc from galv or black I would look 
real hard at finding some 28 or 30 gauge. It is out there usually in the form of pre-manufactured duct for kitchen or bath fans. The lighter gauge would be a lot 
easier to work with.

Galv, black iron, copper, brass, and stainless can all be soldered very easily with soft solder; that is 60/40 with melting temps that I mentioned earlier.

Thats enough for now, time for a beer.
Rick Marty


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Rick,

I'm glad you posted the ga/decimal chart, I've been meaning to page thru my machinist's handbook for months now, and get that data.

I'm not familiar with the term 'oil can' as you've posted. I'm guessing you mean rolling?

This really isn't the forum, but I'll ask you anyway on the off chance you might know: Harbor Freight sells a small 'flanger' for ~$80 (less on sale) that will flange, bead and roll metal. I've never had an occasion to do any of that, and I've looked at the dies and they look coarse for LS work. Anyway, if you know anything about that particular machine, I'd be interested in your opinion. I've even waylaid guys in the aisle at HF, trying to find a sheetmetal man who can tell me a bit about it. Got some interesting opinions and a few great conversations, but no help.

Enjoy the beer.


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Les,

By "oil canning" I mean the expansion/contraction effect you see in flat sheet when it is fastened (welded,screwed, riveted, etc.) around the edges. and maybe in a few lines through the sheet. 
When the sheet expands it can't move laterally so pops up or down creating a ripple effect. Why it is/was called "oil canning" I couldn't say. That is the term that was passed to me 40 years ago as an apprentice
and I have used it every since. You cannot prevent this effect (just look at any steel sided car) but it is amazing how much the visual distraction can be reduced by using flat paint rather than gloss finishes.


As for the HB beading rolls, I have no experience with their machine. I am pretty sure it would be as other things, you get what you pay for. 
Price a pexto machine, look here http://www.vansantent.com/bead_form_tools.htm


Later
Rick Marty


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Rick,

"Oil canning" works for me.

That was a nasty shock, looking at those prices. Now *I *need a beer.

Les


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The effect is named after the bottom of an oil can that is pleated so that when you press on it, it pumps oil out the spout... usually makes a clicking sound too.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

McMaster-Carr has several types of metal, including cold rolled steel, in extremely thin sheets. If I remember correctly it was listed under "shim stock".


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey CT thanks,
That makes perfect sence now that I hear it.
Later
Rick Marty


----------



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

You folks inspired me to work with cold rolled steel so I went to OSH today, and found that they have several types of steel, but not cold rolled (at least they're not admitting to it) I did purchase a small sheet of 22 gauge (the smallest size and gauge they had) but it is called weldable steel. 
Are they the same? If they are different, how do they differ? Can a hobbyist with a small and large torch work this steel as easily as cold rolled steel? 
Thanks.


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Rkapuaala,
A retail store can and will call something just about anything they want to. It is probably called weldable steel because that is the question most often asked in their store. Can I weld this? 
Most all mild steel sheet is weldable, in fact all steel/iron is weldable given the right equipment and material, with a few exceptions. 


The easiest way to tell the difference between cold roll steel and hot roll steel (called black iron) is in the color and finish. If I can explain this right,
cold roll has a silver/grey color with sometimes an oily feel while hot roll is a black finish and that black color will transfere to your hands very easily while handeling it.
For our hobby use I think that cold roll would be the best material (of the steels) to use.

I would think that 22Ga might be a little heavy for hobby work, depending on what your doing with it. I would look for something lighter for cabs and boiler wraps, the 22ga would 
work well for cab roof, walks, decks, etc.

Why would you be using a torch? Torches will produce way to much heat when used on sheet stock and will cause warping and buckling of the stock. Cutting is best done with shear, snips, or nibblers
and fastening is best with soft solder and/or mechanical fastners like bolts, screws, or rivits.

Just my opinion.
Rick Marty


----------



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Rick, 
Thanks for the info. The stuff I got looks like cold rolled, at least, it meets the description you provided. It is indeed sort of a silvery grey color and feels oily, but really isn't, at least, nothing came off on the paper towels when I wiped my hand after handling it. 
Yes, 22 g is really too thick, but that's all they had however, I'm not using it for a boiler wrap or anything right now. It was only about 5 bucks, so I'm going to experiment with it. I wasn't planing on cutting it with a torch,,, sorry about the confusion. I was planning on soldering it with a torch. I have a shear and snips for cutting so I don't see the advantage in cutting small pieces of metal with torches. I do see potential for other applications than boiler wraps though, and will also be experimenting with etching the material. 
It is so inexpensive, I am not really concerned about destroying it. For that money I spent on it, I couldn't even touch a piece of brass or copper at 1/4 the size I got.


----------



## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris,

For sheet metal I almost always use brass. Brass is easy to cut or mill to shape. I cut on a table saw using a jewelers slitting saw, with a jewelers fret saw, snips, etc. I also mill out shapes by adhearing it to a piece of aluminum with double sided carpet tape and using a two flute end mill to cut. For most uses soft soldering is more than adequet. I soft solder with iron/torch/resistance. It can be silver soldered if necessary. Steels sheet can be used but why? I think it is always best to match the material to the job at hand.

Jack


----------



## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Why? Because it is cheaper, can be found easier, exists in more sizes, thickness and sorts, paints better, solders better, can be brazed without melting it, can be easier welded, can be just as good milled, sawed with the right tools etc etc. So why use brass? Only reason I see to use brass is if the original used brass (like a dome) or if it gets wet a lot (like a water tank).


----------



## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Havoc,

IMHO - K&S brass is pretty common while sheet steel in small quantities seems more elusive where I live. I think, for the average amateur modeler with limited tools and skills, brass is much easier to work. The one place I would reccomend steel is in loco frames where a bit of extra strength is desireable. Brass can be silver soldered quite easily if you need stronger than soft soldered joints. Brass will take a finish if properly prepared. I especially like that brass can be sawn w/o lubricants by hand or power saw. Use steel if you like.

Jack


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Jack - Freshwater Models on 11/19/2008 12:08 PM
Havoc,

IMHO I think, for the average amateur modeler with limited tools and skills, brass is much easier to work. 
Jack



Might I, with utmost courtesy, point out that your description of the average modeller would suit him equally for either material?

As has been shown, either will do the job and each can be worked with at least similar methods. For an amateur, then, if he were to begin with mild steel he'd save money in today's economy. Additionally, steel can be ground to shape on a grinder, which can be had from HF (admittedly, my Temple for Power Tools) for generally less money than a belt or disk sander, which is needed for brass. (Unless you're into filing.)

The biggest pitfall most beginners fall into with steel is, they pick up something cheap and find it difficult to work, because it happens to be a high-carbon type. Hard. Brittle. Cracks when you try to bend it, or won't bend evenly or easily. Use of certain commonly-had mild steels will avoid this.

I don't want to urge anyone to use one over the other, because both have good and bad points. I think the modelling hobby has come to rely on brass because 'that's what everyone uses'. It doesn't have to be that way.

A simple way of determining (within reason) how well a thin piece of sheet steel will bend is to take a pair of pliers to one corner and bend it. (Ask, first.) That's all there is to it. Go in about 1/4". Straighten it back out. If it's hard to bend, or breaks off when you try to flatten it out, you don't want it. Some experience will help.

Les



Les


----------



## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Tools don't matter. You use the same tools for both: file, saw, drill, mill etc. Technique might be a tad different but again it makes hardly difference to file steel or brass. Brass may go a bit faster but it may mean you have to be more carefull. 

K&S might be helpfull for small tubes but if you need a decent size plate you need to go elsewere. At least over here where they typically have not more than a desk stand with a few tubes and angles. Even for that I need to go a few towns further. All other brass I have to order from outside the country (UK mostly). 

I think the modelling hobby has come to rely on brass because 'that's what everyone uses'.


My feeling as well, but also "because it always have been brass".


----------



## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Actually, tools DO matter. As a child I was told that " tools don't matter, craftsmanship does" by a mediocre craftsman but great guy. Now as a fairly skilled craftsman I know different. I come from a modelmaking background with experience in hand crafting, machining (manual and cnc), patternmaking, and casting (investment casting, spincasting, and others). I don't choose any material just because it has been used traditionally. Tradition isn't a factor when I have the task of making a part. I choose materials that are best suited to the part and to available methods. See my post on driver pattern test. 

Here in the US K&S store displays usually contain sheet brass in a variety of gauges up to 4"X10" which will cover many projects. Suppliers in the UK may not have the selection. 

A modeler might be able to afford a small drill press and a bunch of hand tools. Maybe not even the drill press! Sheet stock needs to be cut in both straight and curved lines. Probably the cheapest and easiest way to accomplish that is using a simple jewelers fret saw using files to clean up the edges. I've cut both steel and brass with a fret saw and I'll choose the brass if given the choice every time due to the longevity of the blade and ease of cutting. With steel I have to be very careful to not over heat the blade and keep it lubricated. "Grinding" brass can be easily accomplished with wet/dry sandpaper or even the common Dremel rotory tool with a sanding drum. 

Steel is good stuff but not for everything. Techniques and skills need to be considered also. 

Jack


----------



## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Great thread ! Thanks everybody. 

Dave


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

"Tools do not the Craftsman make." 

But even the best Craftsman cannot cut Stainless Steel with a rubber saw!


----------



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

And the best music is not played by a Rubber band  
I have occasion to do a lot of repairs on antiques and musical instruments made when power tools were few and far between. I have seen some amazing things made with only hand tools. I've seen dovetail joints on drawers a couple of 100 years old, hand cut, that are tighter than some of the stuff I see come out of the most expensive dovetail jigs on the market. 
That being said, I think there needs to be a distinction made between productive tools and good tools. If you are going to be productive, you are going to need power tools, no doubt about that. 
Those dovetails I mentioned were cut by a special dovetail saw, not a regular saw. The teeth on that saw were set and sharpened by masters. With a dovetail saw like that and some skill, you can whip out drawer parts pretty fast. With a dull dovetail saw with even one misaligned tooth, you can be the best craftsman in the world, and you joint is still going to suck. 
I've found arrow heads so finely made that they would bring tears to your eyes and I've made some arrow heads that look clumsy and useless. You better believe those ancient arrow makers didn't just pickup any old antler or stone and crank out good arrow heads with them. They probably spent as much time perfecting their tools as they did their skills. 
The point I'm trying to make is that a tool doesn't need to be powered to be a good tool. I knew a terrible craftsman with the most expensive power tools money could buy, he still turned out terrible work. 
I'm a mediocre craftsman with some good tools and some mediocre ones. My work is still mediocre, but I gotta say, I like using the good tools more than the mediocre ones


----------



## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to be misunderstood: tools matter, but they do not matter for choosing between brass or steel. A good file will file both. Same for drills, saws etc. I bet that the two flute mill Jack used in his example was not specially set up for brass. Nor do I think people here buy specialty saws and drills for brass. Maybe some of us have a set of files for brass and one for steel (and another one for alu and lead). But I feel they are a minority.


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

I read years ago that a difference between power tools and had tools was risk. Risk in getting the intended end product. Dovetails are a good example. Once a router jig is set up and adjust, just push the router thru the template. with hand tools there is more risk getting that perfect joint. I would say the risk is mitigated by skill, experience and quality sharp tools.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Jack

What/where is K&S stores? I'm not familiar with them.

Reading down the posts, it occurred to me that a very simple tool not usually mentioned is a plain block of steel with crisp edges to use as a tapping block. Not thread tapping, but straightening/making the occasional bend. I have one about 6"W x 8"L x 2"T and I use it quite frequently. (I also have an anvil for getting after stuff). It's great for taking dings out of flat stock, or straightening bent round stock--like axles--, and it gives a good place to mount the magnetic dial indicator base. I even use mine as a surface plate, though it's only been dressed with a flycutter.

Probably the biggest hurdle a beginner faces is something called 'standard practices'. The second biggest hurdle is the idea that he, and he alone, is doomed to failure. I won't suggest a basic machine shop practices book, because I get aggravated when I pose a question and someone points me at a tome on the subject. I learn by doing where possible. I also learn by asking questions of people who I suspect might know more than I.

A second major failure is for a beginner to not pay attention to what he's doing. When he ruins a workpiece, sometimes he doesn't understand why because his mind was elsewhere. He's ready to quit. What he needs to do is fix his mind on the work, and observe himself and his technique. Some folks are prone to frustration, others not so much.

As a last thought, metal has certain 'plastic-like' properties: it will mush, pull, stretch, wrinkle, get work-hardened and crack, and of course, draw blood when it gets the chance. These properties can be observed with nothing more than a common ball peen hammer and a piece of metal (like even a cheap anvil) to work with. And different selections of steel. Sure, the cheap anvil will get dents in it, but by the time one is ready for a good one, he will know how to treat it.

In short, take some metal and *play* around with it. Heat it. See if it gets soft. Heat it and quench it in oil (there are as many preferred quenching fluids as there are metalworkers--I happen to like 30wt motor oil). After quenching, will the piece be hard and break? It should, given it has any carbon in it at all. Read what is free. With Google, the world of knowledge is at your fingertips, literally.

All these things can be done in the way of very cheap self-education--how much does a few nails cost to practice on? Why not make your own minature rivets? But most of us (me too) want to 'Get 'Er Done'. Build a gon, perhaps, but not fool with learning to bend metal accurately.

I think I've gone on too long.

Les


----------



## coolhand (Jan 7, 2008)

I remember soldering galvanized steel cups and small square boxes in Jr. High shop class. Still have the cup.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

He meant "K&S brass displays in stores"... hardware and hobby shops often have a small display of brass tubing, rod and sheets. The tubing and rods are 12" long. The rod comes in diameters less than 1/4 inch (if you can find it that big!) and the tubing is in diameters from 3/4 inch down to 1/16 (or smaller) and comes in two thicknesses (though few places have both). The sheet material is usually 6 or 8 inches long and in strips from 2 inches wide down to 1/4 inch. There are also some specialty shapes like square and rectangular cross section and "C", "L" and "T" shapes.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

Here's K&S' on-line presence...

[url]http://www.specialshapes.com/default.asp[/b][/url]


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

Thanks for the addr. I went there and scanned around, seems most std lens are 36", and the price didn't look bad either.

I note there's plenty of sq stk for the brass nuts in another thread I'm following.

Les


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I built an entire "critter" with galvanized steel from a drain gutter, using tin snips. Held together by epoxy so I made tabs on everything so more surface adhesive. 

No fancy soldering or welding. It is based on a 19" Japanese wood-hauling locomotive. I'm using 32mm track, representing 18" gauge in 7/8 scale. Tucked inside is a motor boat ESC and R/C unit from a truck. Working front and back lights on separate circuit.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SE,

That's a cool piece of work. I like to see stuff like that. I'd never think to use a drain gutter in a million years. That's one of the great aspects of this hobby: some guy comes along and says, "Look what I did with a piece of...." Imagination. Great job. Gonna put that in my file.

Les


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks, Les, 

I'm doing some tracklaying and switchbuilding now, but a future project will involve steel and tiny fasteners and rivets. I'll be making my own rivets with copper grounding wire, 14 gauge, already done some experiments, pounding it thru small holes drilled in steel on my anvil. The copper spreads out to hold in place. 

I use the above critter for snowplow duty, as it is pretty heavy. Here's the prototype it is based on: 










I also make my own steel wheels using fender washers, which I sand or file and apply epoxy. I'm going to next try to make some with ball bearings using BBs. 










I model in 7/8 scale. If you want to join a cool site, please visit: http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?action=forum 

Everyone there builds their own stuff. I'm the most novice person on the site so I make the most mistakes


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's another shot:










I also do primitive metal casting, and other types, but steel is the most satisfying. As they say, "If it ain't steel, it ain't real" or something like that


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

oh, forgot to mention, I also use strap iron for a bunch of stuff, including the frames for these trucks for a boxcar I made some time ago, as well as some of the parts like the door slide thingies I leave it outside to get some cool rust effects as I like grunge


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SE,

Thanks for posting the pixes.

7/8ths scale is _the_ builder's scale, to me. Anything bigger gets a lot faster, heavier and expesive-r. It's too bad I'm stuck inside, but hey, I'm still around to complain!









With (or in) 7/8ths, there are so many more materials available to make stuff from. Again, I would've never thought to make wheels from washers, and I have a lathe. It would've just never occurred to me. That's one thing about MLS, lots of guys put stuff up that they're building for others to look at.

Also in that scale, things start looking more 'real' without a lot of extra work.

Once I get my first layout up, so I have a better notion of what I'm doing, I might, someday, maybe, go out in the back yard and do a single-track PP and try my hand at it.

Like you said, I'm working on switches, only mine are for strap-iron and I have yet to find a pic of one. Most that I've found is T-rail stub switches, not the same thing.

Les


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I know a couple people that did strap iron rails. If you get a chance, appreciate you posting one. Since it's steel, it could fit nicely in this post. 

I'm waiting for price of metal turning lathe to go under $100. In meantime, I may set up my variable speed drill in a vice and try to fabricate one. I'm sure that's been done before. 

Also, I heard some have used their lathe to mill. Those things run into $$$, not to mention all the dohickies you need with the machines! 

I think I'm the only one on the site I mentioned who doesn't have all that good stuff. Someday.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I don't think even a halfway-decent metal lathe will go much lower than the Asian ones. I got a 7 x 10" Chinee one by a special blessing of the Lord for $250 brand new. The problem with using a hand drill in a vise is twofold: chuck & shaft runout, and lack of solidness for taking cuts in hard metals, like steel. Next, there's the problem of setting up some kind of rest for the tool, a tool holder. What I suggest is you start a 'piggy bank' using spare $1 bills that you forego the extra little tidbits like soda or coffee, and put the buck aside. Or at the end of every week you take a few dollar bills and just stick 'em in a drawer. They do mount up. Then, you can get a lathe. And you're right, the goodies will about double the cost of the lathe. But while you're saving for the goodies, you can clean, adjust and set up your lathe and actually start to familiarize yourself with it.

It is not a good idea to buy the super dooper attachment to mill on your lathe. I beseech you, don't buy a 'combo' lathe/mill. You will then have a tool that will do neither job well. Just buy a lathe and *learn* to use it. Get the South Bend booklet, "How to Run a Lathe." That's how I got started.

Right now at Harbor Freight there is a little bitty lathe that I am so taken with, that if I had the money and didn't already own three (one's a Dunlap wood lathe older than I am) I'd have that sucker. It would me _mine. _It's small. It's ... er, _cute._







One cannot cut threads with it, but that's its only drawback, and for hobby modelling, I suspect it'd do just loverly for most everything. It's right at $250. Also, if you don't have a bench grinder, figure on getting one, so you can learn to grind your own tool bits from blanks, instead of being a slave to some seller. And you can grind tool bits that cut at right angles to the line of feed (or any other angle you happen to desire and can grind to get.)

I got a little off-topic, but you're not alone in wanting better tools, and if you're young, you'll have your whole life to enjoy 'em. I'm saving for Micromark's mill (by the buck-as-I-can method) but I won't buy it until I have the $1500 or so for it and the tools.

Les


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

That's what I hear, don't get 2in1 or 3in1. I did see the Harbor Freight one. 

In the past, I've chucked what I needed in my drill and spun it while the bench grinder was going. Harem scarem. 

I'll eventually get into the money. Maybe my stocks will go up and home value as well. Or, maybe the Wall Street tycoons will share some of their bonus $ to avoid getting taxed. Train charity?


Honestly, someday that's my dream (real metal working stuff).


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

You never did mention your age, but if you want 'real metal-working stuff' then by all means _go for it._ You have one life, spend it wisely. Of course if you have a family, they come first. But you can scavenge a little here 'n there for yourself--don't kill the dream, whatever you do. (If you have a good wife, like I did, she'll help a little along.) So long as you have a dream, you have a goal. Goals get you out of bed with a smile in your mind, even if everything else pretty much seems sucky. Sucky, a good man just shoulders through. Sometimes pretty ungracefully, but they walk or crawl out the other side, ready for the next round. The wimps give up and whine.

When I was about 22, I was a*s over teakettle in over my head, trying to build up an old, wore-out farm. Family farm, but I put my heart and soul in it, put up with all kinds of crap, but in the end, I had the 3rd largest feeder pig operation in the Tri-county area. Purina Farms sent a rep to see if I'd partner up. Just 9 years of working 8 days a week, holding out enough for beer money and a couple meals a day. This old man--gosh, musta been like, _sixty-five,_ or maybe older. Old cuss, is all I remember. He said, "You know, you're young. You try this and it don't work, you'll live long enough to make it all back." Meaning, life would go on.

He was so right.

Sermon over.

Les


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I like that idea of using washers to make wheels!


----------

