# Dualing sound cards???



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I had an English teacher in high school who often ended a class with: "any questions, stupid or otherwise?". This might be one of them.

I have an Aristo-Craft RDC. I am optimistic that, someday before I die, QSI will actually send me the Titan card to replace the defective card I sent them about a year ago. This question has nothing to do with my snarkiness about that situation. 

I sometimes think it might be nice to have a second RDC and run them together. If, say, someday before I die - sorry, I'm being snarky again - I get a second RDC and a second Titan card (snark, snark) would the two RDCs traveling together just sound like one RDC, with all the sounds happening at the precise same moment, and therefore a waste of money? Or would the two units have small differences but enough to actually sound like TWO cars passed by?

If nothing else, would this arrangement enhance the Doppler effect, perhaps? Would they cancel each other out and pass by silently, like the Phantom Budd Car? Would they be slightly off and sound super coooooll? Would they break thru the time/space continuum and return the U.S. to the days of Steam?

JackM


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## darkdaniel100 (Dec 26, 2008)

The only stupid question is the one you dont ask  It will Interesting to see what folks views on this ... 

From my experience you should be able to tell that you have two locomotives running .


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

There is nothing to "snyc up" the two sound cards if they are independently and separately installed in two RDC's.. 
therefore they would *not* be making the sounds at the precise same moment, and they would very much sound like 
two unique and separate locomotives..because they are!  

Scot


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I put Phoenix sound cards in 1 LGB Mikado's. They sound great when running together.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Technically speaking, the RDC would have two diesel motors per unit, so you'd really want to hear 4 diesel motors as two RDCs passed by. Whether the Titan's RDC recording actually has two independent diesel motors (one sent to each speaker, since it's stereo) remains to be seen. (Of course, the Titans remain to be seen, too...  I'm also waiting for the Titans to come in so I can get my dead Quantum replaced.) 

Definitely put a sound system in each loco. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What Scott said. 

The existing RDC sound file will be used by the new Titan. I'll have to listen to it to see if you can hear the second motor, and if it is an "independent" sound, i.e. you can adjust the "balance" between the 2 speakers for a given "sound"... if the motors are "one" sound, then no can do.. 

But, I thought the 2 motors were side by side underneath, so the 2 speakers would not be of any use... what is good is having a speaker near the nose of a diesel, and another further back... now the horn sound can be made to "appear" from where the horns are, and you can balance the motor sound to be near where the motor(s) are. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'll have to listen to it to see if you can hear the second motor, and if it is an "independent" sound 
If they're using the "old" sound file, it's very likely you're going to hear both motors, unless they recorded an RDC which was only running on one motor. It would be impossible otherwise to record the sound of only one motor running. (And then, they'd likely overlay the sound slightly offset to recreate the sound of two motors running together, since the prototypes all had 2 motors, except for the RDC-9, which had only one motor, but didn't have cab controls thus was always used in tandem with another RDC.) The motors on an RDC are not side by side. They're immediately adjacent to the trucks, each connected to its truck via a driveshaft. The radiators and exhaust are centered, but the motors are nominally 40' or so apart. I would agree, though, that you'd gain little by using two separate speakers for each motor, as the sound you hear would be a blend of the two motors and the exhaust. (And would largely be moot given that the recording is most likely both motors.) 

I found this on YouTube: 



It's an old newsreel showing the RDCs in action (and a few shots of them being built). Shame it's got that newsreel music throughout and not the real sounds. 

Later, 

K


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for finding the video. That's more RDC movement than I've seen in my entier life, including on the CCRR! 

Also, thanks for the various thoughts on the matter which will be filed away for future reference. (I think my big question is whether two RDCs are cooler than one. Hmmmm....) 

JackM


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

With 2 RDC's tied together, I would use a sound unit in each but tie a second speaker to the opposite engine so each engine would have 2 separate sounds but only 1 sound card in each.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, you would gain a lot by having 2 speakers in the situation that the motors are physically separated on the loco, so the titan would be a good choice. 

Again, I don't know if the 2 motors are "separate sounds" in the current RDC sound file.

And sorry Kevin, even if the motors were near to each other, it is very possible to record them independently. You should talk to someone who does professional recordings of locomotives. 

I don't know everything Loco Lee knows, but he knows a **** of a lot about recordings and I LISTEN to what he has told me about recordings, his setups, the equipment he uses, etc. 

He's the person who did the RDC recording for QSI and I have 2 RDC with the recordings, in fact I got the beta versions before they were generally available. 

There's also the example of the E8 sound files where you can hear the 2 motors independently start and shut down, although I believe they are both the same recordings, just played at the same time. 

Also, as a final example you can hear is the 2-8-8-2 sound file, where you hear the chuffs go in and out of sync between the 2 "motors" (although most mallets spent very little time "simpled".) 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Actually, you would gain a lot by having 2 speakers in the situation that the motors are physically separated on the loco, so the titan would be a good choice. 
If the sounds of each of two motors are split to their own respective channels, then absolutely. However, if the sounds of both motors are mixed to a monaural source and simply sent to two speakers, you're wasting a speaker. Think of putting on a set of headphones and listening to a stereo recording, then listening to the same thing in mono. In stereo, your brain picks up the subtle variations between channels and you get the sense of dimension in the sound. That doesn't exist in the mono world. Your brain interprets the sound as coming dead center between your ears. Yeah, if you're sitting right trackside as the RDC rolls by, you'd hear sound coming from both speakers as it passes, but the model on the ground and you 5' or more away? That spatial distinction will be much harder to distinguish. From 20' away, you'll never be able to tell there are two speakers. Better in that case to go with your original notion of a single speaker for the motor, then a separate speaker for the other sounds; horn, bell, etc. Your brain can pick up on that spatial difference from 20' just as it can pick up the spatial difference between the sound coming from the locomotive's speaker and a squeak from its front axle. 

And sorry Kevin, even if the motors were near to each other, it is very possible to record them independently. You should talk to someone who does professional recordings of locomotives. 
Er, have you forgotten what I do for a living? No, I don't record locomotives every day, but 20 years working in broadcast TV has taught me a thing or two about audio recording. Yes, you can use highly directional and close proximity microphones to eliminate as much of the "unwanted" background noise as possible. That's why those microphones are made, and they're very good at what they do. But sound reflects and reverberates, and those microphones are going to pick up the sound the motor is making itself as well as the sound it is reflecting from other sources. If both motors are turning, you're hearing aspects of both motors in the recording pretty much no matter where the mics are placed. That reflection is very much part of the whole sound, just as reflection and reverberation is part of the acoustic experience in a concert hall. I don't know how Lee records his loco sounds, but I know how _I'd_ do it, and that includes close-in microphones for the specific sounds of each individual motor (both generated and reflected), and farther away mics placed to capture the ambient sounds that tie the two motors together, just as I'd put a microphone in the back of the concert hall in conjunction with a series of microphones in front of groups of instruments on the stage. That back microphone is every bit as important to "the sound" as any of the close mics. The truth of the matter is that you don't want to just record one motor and layer it to a second channel to represent the second motor. You're not getting the complete picture. It's very simple to record both motors at the same time with a group of microphones, then engineer the sound in the studio to a stereo file with each channel favoring a motor. It's actually much less work and you get a truer sound. You're not "dedicating" a channel to a particular motor, rather you can pan various microphones to favor one channel or the other, giving you a spectrum of sounds, where the general ambient sounds are more centered, and the specific "detail" motor sounds are highly polarized. Good stereo sound engineering is an art unto itself, but with enough microphones, you could have an absolute field day. Give a locomotive a speaker up front and in the rear, a good sound engineer can set the stereo pan so each sound sounds like it's coming from pretty much precisely where it should. It's beyond my talents at the moment, but I can sure appreciate it when I hear it. 

I think we can agree that the RDC sounds as they exist in the Quantum sound file are mono files--the sounds of two motors mixed to one channel. I can't imagine they'd waste file size loading stereo-encoded files onto a board that has only one speaker. The question is twofold--can the Titan play stereo files as opposed to simply letting the user select which of two channels various mono sounds will be played; and if they can play true stereo files, does the source file for the Quantum RDC sound exist in a format that would allow it to be re-mastered into a stereo file where each motor could be favored towards a particular channel? (And would QSI have the slightest interest in doing so?) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not rising to the bait. 

I issued the caveat about the motors being separate sounds in the sound file, so your first paragraph of response is superfluous. 

I won't argue with sound recording with you, I'll let you talk to Loco Lee. 

Third, you constantly misunderstand the dual speaker usage in the Titan, it is NOT stereo sound. 

Any sound can be played through either or both speaker. Think of it as a mono sound played through a stereo and using the balance control to control where that sound comes from. This is exactly what happens. 

It's cool to ask questions, or maybe speculate, but when you don't really understand something and then tell people how it works (the new Titan) you cause people to get really confused and bad information. And you get me popping up telling you that you are wrong. 

it's not stereo. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Whoa, Greg... how do you interpret my post as me telling people how things work? Perhaps you missed this statement... _"...can the Titan play stereo files as opposed to simply letting the user select which of two channels various mono sounds will be played...?"_ It should be obvious from that question that I _didn't_ know which was the case. It was either as you describe, or capable of processing stereo sound files. Now I know, and thank you for your answer. (I posed the same question over on the QSI YahooGroups list, and Lee answered as well that is is essentially an audio mixer with two-channel output.) Now that we're all squarely on the same page on that, we can get back to discussing two motors, and how the Titan will handle that. 

Lee followed up by saying that units with two motors (RDC and GenSets) will have two distinct channels on the Titan dedicated to the motor sounds. Lee says he recorded each motor as a separate track, and each channel will be split off to a unique mono channel within the Titan. The user can then pan them independently from one another to opposite speakers or however they desire. Can't ask for better, really. 

So yes, with two QSI boards in two RDCs, and speakers placed near the power trucks, you will be able to hear four disticnt motors as the pair passes by, and very likely will also be able to tell there are four motors from some distance away. That'll be cool to hear! 

Later, 

K 

Later, 

K


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Let's dissect the problem in a little more detail and more general (e.g. applying to PA/PB?PA or FA/FB/FA sets as well - taking it to three sound projects).

Yes there is a difference in running a train with three engines and one or three have sound projects in them. The trains sound more impressive, especially if they pass close by.And the cost delta of modern decoders without sound to the ones with sound is only about $70.

However, de-synchronization of the engines among each other, is actually something that you typically want to battle. People spend a lot of time tuning each decoder to each engines characteristics tics so that all three units together work with the same unified force. If one slightly runs away from the other you may experience huge BACKEMF fights among the decoders disallowing smooth operation.

Since all sounds should be synchronized to engine movement you can either do this with physical wheel sensors or with electric BackEMF sensoring (preferred in modern decoders). Consequently without wheel slip all engines are moving at the same speed and all decoders are sound synchronized as well, unless you feed them different sound files, which of course you can do as well. Someone like a Paul Chetter in the UK or a Heinz Daeppen in Switzerland have worked on those effects already (for single engines with two motors), and Heinz will commercialize the more complex engines in the future.

If a manufacturer (such as ZIMO) offers a sound project generation program end users can do this themselves, providing they want to spend the time.

As far as the viability in the single engine goes, It might sound OK on the work bench and the listener 2 feet away, but the effects are 100% negliable out in the layout. Any form of sourceable stereo effect disappears at 3-5x the speaker distance (in our case 1 - 2 feet), so at about 4-5 feet on the average.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have 3 Aristo E8's with QSI's in them. The QSI sound files and sofware are such that they go in and out of sync with each other "a little". (Users of Aristo Mallets with QSI can also hear the 2 engines going in and out of sync). 

So, from a perspective of an actual installation, with an actual product, this combination works. 

Now Axel, I will take you to task a bit on distance, with a simple example. I was told that putting speakers in steam tenders was fine, will sound ok, etc. When I first heard actual installations at my house, I was disappointed to sense the sound from the tender. With good high frequency reproduction, I can "place" the location of the speaker from 10 feet away. 

So can SOME of my friends. Some others cannot seem to locate sounds at all. 

So, it DEPENDS.... try it yourself on your locos and see what results you actually get. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you guys are getting a little out of control when it comes to syncronizing motors for these Budd cars. I've spent more time riding these things then I care to remember and you have to remember they have Detroit Diesel engines, which are relatively high revving, 2-stroke motors. That means subtle differences in RPM isn't very distinctive and not something you hear in real life. It's not like chuffing going in and out of sync on a big steam loco. As for QSI's 'expert', isn't he the same guy who had the completely wrong engine when he first posted it here?  

Keith


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Hear, hear... well said, Cougar.


Cheers,
Victor


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Let me see if I can get this stream closer to my original question. "If at first I don't phrase it well enough, try, try again." 

Anyone remember a hit record in the late 50s (I think) called "The Big Hurt" by Miss Toni Fisher (the label actually said Miss - not like she sounded like a guy, but...)?? The recording had a neat airy effect caused by the background music passing in and out of phase. We used to play with that stuff a lot in recording studios that had two identical tape recorders (inevitably Ampexes). With the same track on both tapes, we'd vary the playback speed and get the audio to go in and out of phase. Fun to play with, but not many practical applications. 

Rather than getting bogged down in questions about the motors, let's consider the _other _sounds in the QSI card for my RDC: "engineers entering and leaving the cab, vents opening and closing,... brake squeal", etc. Presuming I have two RDCs similarly equipped, and presuming that both engines would come alive at the same moment when I powered up the system, would an engineer enter each RDC at the sime time, slam the door at the same time, start up his engine at the same time, etc.? As the pair of RDCs are moving down the track into a curve, would both RDCs experience brake squeal at the same time? Heck, let's even consider both RDCs blowing their horns at the same time. Would these sounds sometimes get a bit out of sync and out of phase? What about the air pumps? 

Here's another one. What about the coupler sound? Will both RDCs have the sound of a coupler clanking even though obviously only one can be slamming into that private car with the President of Freedonia aboard? 

I am presuming that I have set up my NCE system to control both RDCs together as a consist. 

The whole idea of this exercise is to help me decide if I want to shop for a second RDC in anticipation of eventually having one or more Titan cards. No use spending a couple hundred for a second RDC and another bill and a half for a second card if it all sounds just like one RDC. 

JackM


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Rather than getting bogged down in questions about the motors, let's consider the other sounds in the QSI card for my RDC: "engineers entering and leaving the cab, vents opening and closing,... brake squeal", etc. Presuming I have two RDCs similarly equipped, and presuming that both engines would come alive at the same moment when I powered up the system, would an engineer enter each RDC at the sime time, slam the door at the same time, start up his engine at the same time, etc.? As the pair of RDCs are moving down the track into a curve, would both RDCs experience brake squeal at the same time? Heck, let's even consider both RDCs blowing their horns at the same time. Would these sounds sometimes get a bit out of sync and out of phase? What about the air pumps? 

IMHO sounds like the "engineer entering and leaving the cab", and "vents opening and closing" are gimmicks with little basis in reality, just to help QSI sell their product. The reality is that those sounds would rarely if ever be heard on a real RDC. If my memory serves me correctly, only one Budd car would blow it's horn when coupled to another one, so that's likely a non-issue as well. Air compressors would not be a distinctive sound either, it would be driven off the diesel engine and you would never hear it in real life. Once they are coupled, the coupler clank sound would be useless too, as they aren't regulary coupled/uncoupled like a regular locomotive. Obviously both RDCs would experience brake squeal at a different time, at least on entering or leaving a curve. As for hearing an engine at each end of each car, you wouldn't hear that either as the exhaust was central for both motors. 

My recommendation would be to put a sound decoder in each RDC, with a single speaker in the roof (or wherever they come factory installed) and set them up so they can act as independant units or run in a consist. Since they will have separate addresses, you can start/stop each diesel engine independantly. I'm not sure if QSI has set up the sounds with two independant starting routines or not (like Zimo or Massoth does with locomotives like the V200). Since the RDCs are such long locomotives, the centrally located speakers will still be 2 or 3' apart, so you will definitely get the impression they are independantly powered locos, and that should give you the effect you want. 

I don't mean to be so negative on the multiple speaker/multiple engine thing, just want to help put things in perspective for you. 

Good luck with it, those Budd cars are really nice. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, QSI has used the same "entering the cab and slamming the door" on all diesel sound files, and the RDC is an adaption of that. 

You individually control the startup sounds on each engine, so you hear these sounds only after you hit F6 twice for the loco currently addressed. 

In consisting, you have control over which sounds come from which locos... this has been in DCC for a long time. 

Normally, you set the lead loco to have horn and bell, and other sounds from all locos. 

If you have a 3 loco consist, only the lead loco of the 3 will respond to the horn button. 

There's a lot more customization possible, especially since there are many more "commandable" sounds. 

I think the nicest application of the 2 speaker sound will be 2 speakers, one near the nose of a long diesel, like an E8 or SD70, so the horn sound is even more localized. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

We cannot eliminate physics and electro acoustics. The longer the distance away you are from the loco the lesser the odds that you will determine the location of the speaker. This maybe nice on a bench setup but not in the garden. Even in our test layout in the basement, I can majorly hear the difference between tender and engine placement when the engine is pacing inches from me, but it become irrelevant at 5+ feet.

What is relevant is the size of the speaker. So in a LGB Mogul I prefer the 3" speaker in the tender versus the 1.5 or 2" speaker in the loco. 

In addition all our speakers are predominantly directed downwards (because you don't see the holes. as compared to speakers facing upwards - can you imagine speaker holes in the roof?).

Keith:
Radio messages from engineers seem to be one of the latest gags in the sound market. One can argue it enhances the players fun, but correctly speaking you are right the passenger or the outside observer would not hear those, unless you are of course a passenger on the Bernina Bahn Abe 4/4 I, II, III are the new Abe 8/12. You heare the doors and engineer conversations, and it is therefore valid to put those into a sound project.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith: 
Radio messages from engineers seem to be one of the latest gags in the sound market. One can argue it enhances the players fun, but correctly speaking you are right the passenger or the outside observer would not hear those, unless you are of course a passenger on the Bernina Bahn Abe 4/4 I, II, III are the new Abe 8/12. You heare the doors and engineer conversations, and it is therefore valid to put those into a sound project. 

You're right, Axel, and on the Allegra, about the only thing you hear is the squealling! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, I am relating my real experiences outside on a real garden railroad. 

Why are you doubting that I can hear what I am telling you I can hear? 

I did issue the caveat that not all people can locate sounds the same. 

(what bench do you think I have that will handle 3 E8's end to end? That's about 9 feet!!) 

I believe that in your experience you cannot locate sounds at greater than 5 feet... that's fine, but because you cannot, does not mean the rest of the world cannot. 

And, all the diesels from Aristo have the speaker upwards, not only can I imagine it, but it is TRUE.. 

And what is relevant to locating sounds is the more directional component, which is treble, which, normally is INVERSELY proportional to the size of the speaker. 

By the way, it's easier to locate sounds outside, where there are no echos/reflections, than in a closed space... I have tried this too. 

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

In consisting, you have control over which sounds come from which locos... this has been in DCC for a long time. 

Normally, you set the lead loco to have horn and bell, and other sounds from all locos. 

If you have a 3 loco consist, only the lead loco of the 3 will respond to the horn button. 


A-HA!!! Major breakthrough! Thank you, Greg. 

At this point I have an S4, a GP-38 and the RDC. Thus, I have never even looked at the chapter on Consisting. It never ocurred to me that the sounds could be controlled separately. 

My new SD-45 is just coming out of the paint shop and will be lashed up to the GP with some regularity next summer. And fun will ensue. (I'm a bit surprised that no one here has put sound cards into two RDCs and just given us a two-word answer, eg. "it sucks" or "it's awwwesommmmme!") 

Re: the separation issue. If I can find some time this week, I think I'll try my luck at researching the directional sensitivities of our hearing. Considering that one often listens to stereo speakers at a distance of five to ten feet forward (similar to standing over our garden railroads, although admittedly more widely spaced than what we're talking about here), I wonder how much audio acuity can be ascribed to training or practice compared to the strictly mechanical ability of our ears. There's been a lot of research about audio perception in recent years. 

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In addition Jack, when you use advanced consisting (which uses the features in the decoders), when you un-consist a loco, then the horn, bell, etc. all act as normal. (but will go back to your customized way when re-consisted) 

It's really a nice feature. 

Regards, Greg


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