# First time and figuring out power supply option



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

I never had a train as a kid, so this 40-something year old father recently went out and bought a large scale railroad to use in the back garden. My young daughter loves it too! 

What I have is a Bachman set bought from Amazon, the "Durango and Silverston Freight" model, with a Baldwin 4-6-0 loco & tender, box car, and caboose. The power controller supplies 16V AC to the track. I've got about 40' of used track coming that I ordered off Ebay to augment the small set of track that came with the train. I'll be putting this set out in the back garden, which is about 100' from the nearest outlet, and even there it would require tunneling under a large concrete patio. Definitely not desirable to use AC from the house. I've set my sights on either a solar supported AC inverter running off a car battery, or converting the loco to battery powered. Unfortunately the Baldwin 4-6-0 has no built in capability for battery, so I'd have to rewire it and disconnect the wheel power not to mention wiring in a rheostat to be able to control the speed. I'm leaning heavily towards a solar system. I already have a 400W inverter laying around that I'm not using. I've priced out a 50W solar panel and charge controller for $130, then I could go out and buy a basic car battery. Plug in the controller and I'm good to go, with all the functions that the train came with. I figure getting a couple of hours of run time on a cloudy day, maybe more on a bright sunny day. 

Anyway, I thought I'd see if anyone has some advice on something I'm not thinking of.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

First of all your engine requires DC. AC is for Lionel. All Large Scale trains run on DC. Starter set power supplies do not have enough power to reliably work for most trains. 

Second, the Bachmann track is not designed for outdoor use, unless you live in the driest part of the Sahara. In most if not all environments it will rust out very quickly.

Chuck


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Well, I was surprised that it was listed as AC as well, but the power controller clearly states, "Input: AC 120V 60 Hz 24 W, Output: AC 16V 1000mA 16VA." Maybe they used the wrong label? Not worried about rust or the controller. As you said, this is a starter set. If it rusts, it rusts. The only thing that should rust would be the track. Everything else is 90% plastic.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There may be a second set of terminals for AC output. the Bachmann locos ALL run on DC for sure. 

it's not just a simple matter of rust, the track is thin metal, the rails are hollow, it will completely decompose quickly 

no matter, because it won't conduct electricity well enough when it's rusted. 

To prove to yourself the DC option, take a car battery with a fuse and hook it to the rails (of course you can use something smaller like 2 6v lantern batteries in series) 

You will see that chuck is right. 

Greg


----------



## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Regarding the battery and solar power, checkout the Garden Railways from April of last year, http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx?view=ViewIssue&issueId=6772. There was an article of somebody doing just that.


----------



## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

The correct statement is that ALL BACHMANN trains that are not battery powered run on DC. If you've got a Bachmann power supply, it's DC. You can check it with a volt meter. For your needs, I'd take a long heavy extension cord (grounded) and plug thejpower supply into it somewhere near the layout. Then I'd run a jumper of about 16 guage wire between where I attached the power supply to the track to a spot about halfway around the track. This will provide adequate power for a Bachmann Ten Wheeler.


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Posted By **** Habilis on 20 Jul 2012 10:23 PM 
Regarding the battery and solar power, checkout the Garden Railways from April of last year, http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx?view=ViewIssue&issueId=6772. There was an article of somebody doing just that. 
Very good. I'm going to go buy it right now.


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Jul 2012 09:57 PM 
There may be a second set of terminals for AC output. the Bachmann locos ALL run on DC for sure. 

it's not just a simple matter of rust, the track is thin metal, the rails are hollow, it will completely decompose quickly 

no matter, because it won't conduct electricity well enough when it's rusted. 

To prove to yourself the DC option, take a car battery with a fuse and hook it to the rails (of course you can use something smaller like 2 6v lantern batteries in series) 

You will see that chuck is right. 

Greg 
Not so much concerned about whether it's DC or AC. Everyone seems to feel it's DC, so I'm sure it is. All I know is I plug it in and it works, so that's good enough for me.  As far as the rails I'll be using for outside, they're brass, so I won't have to worry about them rusting. The loco, however, will be coming at night or in the rain.


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 20 Jul 2012 11:23 PM 
The correct statement is that ALL BACHMANN trains that are not battery powered run on DC. If you've got a Bachmann power supply, it's DC. You can check it with a volt meter. For your needs, I'd take a long heavy extension cord (grounded) and plug thejpower supply into it somewhere near the layout. Then I'd run a jumper of about 16 guage wire between where I attached the power supply to the track to a spot about halfway around the track. This will provide adequate power for a Bachmann Ten Wheeler. Thanks, I'll give that a shot.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The first response mentioned starter supplies are not reliable. This is a wrong statement, my work bench has a starter supply that is 20 years old and I expect engines to work from it or the engine has a problem. 
Problem with a starter set supply is the low power output for future expansion with large engines pulling a big load and needing lots of power. 

A starter supply will run your xmas set around the tree for many years and are very reliable!!!!!!


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There are starter set power supplies that seem to work well and then there or starter set power supplies that seem to have problems. Over the years there have been a number of beginners asking here on MLS about why their Bachmann trains don't run very long on their starter set PS? I haven't observed people commenting about LGB, Aristo, and USA starter PSs. That was the basis for my comment. 

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience also, most fail early in life.... when in the beginner forum I give advice based on what is most likely to occur, not the exceptions. 

Greg


----------



## weonlycut (Jul 16, 2012)

Your question has solved my problem also related to power issue. thanx


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Posted By weonlycut on 21 Jul 2012 10:50 AM 
Your question has solved my problem also related to power issue. thanx After doing some more research, it sounds like the solar option is very doable for power supply. I've seen more than one chart that shows that a 100W television can run off an inverter hooked to a car battery for up to 5 hours. My track power supply only pulls 24W. That means that, theoretically, I could run many hours off the inverter. I think I'll even decrease my panel size to 20W to save space and money. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You need to get the data on how long it takes to charge the battery. You might find charging takes longer than discharging.. i.e. 24 watts load might run for 5 hours, but 24 watts charging might take 10 hours. 

There is energy lost in the storing of the electricity. Remember that a 24 watt panel only gets 24 watts under ideal conditions. 

Greg


----------



## LOST AND CONFUSED (Mar 7, 2008)

First Bachmann 4-6-0 if you run them outside and bring them back inside they will run a LONG TIME . I own 6 of them only problem I have is they can easily burn out motor gears if you pull to many cars

I am now running much larger engines on my outdoor layout but I started with Bachmann You cant use the track that comes with the set outside UNLESS YOU TAKE IT BACK IN WHEN YOUR DONE . 

You need a brass or stainless steel for outside. One rainstorm will ruin steel allow track. I am poor and have been able to accumulate all brass track outside by going to train shows and buying only used track.

I clean track with scotch bright and its great check ebay and craigs list also . I also have 8 10 by 20 carports covering my track I would also suggest spending money on a power supplys I have 

two different ones .One is 10 amp and the other is 5 amp costs less than a solar panel trains only run on less than two amps . YOUR TOASTER OVEN CONSUMES MORE POWER PRE MONTH THAN YOUR 
TRAINS WILL. Hope this helps have fun in the dirt building your layout I cant think of anything I do thats more fun


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear lost: if you read the thread, Apparently the OP has some brass track, not using the stock Bachmann track. 

Roykirk: What brand is your track? 

Greg


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Greg - It's the solid brass Bachmann track. 36' of straight and enough curved to make a 4' turn. The track that came with it will stay inside to use around the Christmas Tree.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great, it's new, and not a lot of reports on it yet, but looks good from all the pictures I have seen. 

When you are not using the steel track, you might spray it with wd-40 or similar to store it, unless you have a dry environment. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

With brass track, you can skip the jumpers. You'd need wire larger than the rails themselves to carry more current than the track itself. 

BTW, I would highly recommend spending some time on Greg's web site. It will save you an awful lot of time "reinventing" the wheel. 

Robert


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Jul 2012 11:08 PM 
Great, it's new, and not a lot of reports on it yet, but looks good from all the pictures I have seen. 

When you are not using the steel track, you might spray it with wd-40 or similar to store it, unless you have a dry environment. 

Regards, Greg It seems to be a pretty bomb proof track. The only complaint I would have is that each section is tied together with these tiny Allen head screws. I doubt there's much chance of them ever coming apart once it's put together, but losing the screws or moving things around at a later time is going to be a big hassle.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Two tricks for those screws; 
1. Put a sheet of white paper under the track. 
2. warm the tool and stick it into beeswax, the stickiness will hold the screw. It can be recycled from used candles, I buy mine in round stick form from jewelry supply houses. Might find it at dressmaker shops ... I dunno that was a very faint memory.... 

Happy Rails 

John


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Many hardware stores still have beeswax... much stickier than normal wax. You can buy spare screws, and you will most likely use rail clamps for switches and have some spare screws. 


Greg


----------



## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Anything sticky will work. I've used grease, even something like Crisco. You just need something that will hold the screw to the Allen wrench long enough to screw it into the holes in the track. 
Bob


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

If you decide to go with a solar charged battery you don't need an inverter to run the power supply. Just connect a throttle between the battery and track. But don't forget a fuse near the battery.


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

At least you are ambitious on finding different ways to use solar power. I have a 5.31 Kw system (33 panels on the roof) and I'm using a Sonny Boy 6000 watt inverter...but then I power the entire house with it (well, 78% of the requirements....run a hot tub that is an energy hog). Never went into extending it to battery charging since those circuits and batteries can be costly...but does make a good backup system. I guess from the discussion and threads that follow, I haven't figured out yet whether you are trying to convert from track power (DC power supplied to the rails) or go to a remote system using battery power supplied to the engine? I think you PV solar system would be good for providing a charging source for a battery operated system...but be prepared for some expenses (lithium battery back, decoder for on board control of sound and motor speed and a hand held wireless controller....like Airwire).

If you are trying to run the DC track power by providing electricity from the PV solar panels through the inverter...then you need to consider that your "starter set" is probably rated at 1.0 to 1.2 amps. Your engine with a couple to five cars, on level grade and 40 feet of track will be fine until you decide to add heavier loads (more cars) or increase the track or run a second engine. Then your amperage draw is going to increase beyond the transformer capacity and the protection circuitry will kick in....ooops, no power. I also agree with some of the other thoughts provided that you need to remember (especially here in the Flagstaff area), that your power production is limited to between 9 am and 3 pm (six hours) and forget it on cloudy days or rain/snow days.

But, I like your thoughts and I think with a little experimentation, you could make it happen. Good luck. Ed


----------



## roykirk (Jul 20, 2012)

Ed - 

Since running AC to the area I plan to use is going to be too cumbersome, I had simply hoped to use a solar panel, battery, and inverter, to power the track. I hadn't planned on anything more fancy than that at this point. Are you suggesting I could simply hook the panel directly to the inverter? I had planned on using a battery in between because I had heard through various sources that you don't want to use a panel to directly power delicate electronics equipment because of the fluctuation in energy that can really screw up some modern day electronics. Plus, with a battery, I can run the system even on cloudy days or at night. If it will work, however, I'm all for starting with the simplest method.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The inverter mentioned is a bit more than an ordinary inverter... it takes the wildly variable voltage output of the solar panels and converts it to the proper DC levels to charge a battery... this is electronics you need to use a solar panel. 

Greg


----------

