# mystery of MTH



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

For a while now I've been thinking about a set of MTH passenger cars. They are small for 1:29 but I'm thinking the "selective compression" might look better on our eight foot curves. I just finished restoring and upgrading a lionel atlantic, and a set of the tuscan red passenger cars would look great.I assume 4 MTH cars would be lighter and easier to pull than four aristo heavyweights, but maybe not


Ok, so do they actually exist? Every retailer I've tried shows them out of stock, and it seems like it's been that way for years. Any suggestions on a retailer who might actually have them?


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

These are nice cars but they really are very small, Ray has them on his web site, Also Jim Miller i beleive has a video of them being pulled by a GG-1. i think if you can make the aristo ones work on your curves im thinking they would look great behind your atlantics...of course dont tell anyone one but these are my favorite passenger cars from aristo.. he he he


----------



## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

Mike the Atlantic really does look perfect with the aristo heavyweights.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have four aristo heavyweights in B&O Blue and gray. I agree, the Atlantic looks good with the heavyweights but the heavyweights are maybe a little too big. They look silly on eight foot curves. Also they have to be PRR now...


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

New Garden RRer page54 IDE TRACK Hobbies says they have them in stock..


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks nick, I'll check that out


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

The other thing to consider is the MTH cars are streamliners, and most of the Atlantics were gone by the streamline era. Most, but not all. 

For the Atlantic, you could always just do two heavyweight coaches. Simulate the famous Lindbergh film train (I think it was two baggage cars). Or if you were considering building your own, you could always get Bachmann coaches, splice them together to make 60' wooden coaches.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark--you might be right about that. As far as I know Atlantics were still in use on the Penna-Reading seashore line into the 50s, and I assume they were pulling smoothsides or streamliners by that point. But I've also seen pictures that suggest you could still find heavyweights in daily use into the 50s as well. 

Hmmm...


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

Back on subject.
I have a friend who has been waiting for 3 years now for an SP MTH observation car.
No word as to when or IF they will ever be made again.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I called MTH about 2 months ago looking for a NYC observation car. They said there were sold out and none in dealer stock either. I asked when they were making another run. I was told "we're not". They did help me locate a Santa Fe observation which was fine as they were being re-lettered into Nickel Plate Road.


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Does that mean "we're not" right now or "we're not" forever? That doesn't sound very encouraging for the future of MTH in G. Too bad. I'll stick with 1/29.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I took it to mean they had no plans to make another run of NYC cars in the next 12 months or so. I would like to know if they have any plans to do some old pullman heavyweights. At $150- $200 I think they would sell pretty good. Those of us in live steam would snap them up pretty quick!


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff - I know where a NYC obs car is! 

When MTH says, "were not planning on doing that" they mean they are not going to do another run anytime in the future. (subject to change, but almost never happens. It occasionally happens in O guage. Forget it in guage one) 

If you want something from MTH you need to order it when they catalog it. MTH tends to make only what they pre sell. So you aren't going to find much open stock. They did that with the helo cars, and still have them all. Try and find a big boy, or coal hoppers. Not happening!


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the MTH shipping schedule shows that the D&H ribbed, PRR smooth, SP smooth, UP smooth, NH ribbed & Rio Grande ribbed passenger car sets are to be released in Nov. 2009. They're the 3 car sets along with a coach & observation cars extra. I hope so as I have 8 of the U.P. & 8 of the PRR on order and may just order a set of 8 S.P.'s as I recently found a GS-4 Daylight.

Maybe the Aristo passenger cars would be a better fit if you want select compression as the MTH cars are actually longer and in 1/32 measure out to like 75'..I don't know what the Aristo cars measure out at in 1/29..like 68' or some weird size.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Really? The MTH cars are longer? They don't look to be longer. As far as I can tell, the MTH cars measure about 26.5 inches. The Aristo heavyweights are 29.5 inches, which I think is more than would be accounted for by the difference between 1:32 and 1:29

Good news that they will be producing some PRR cars--I'll be looking for them, but also some PRR heavyweights


----------



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The MTH cars that I have measure 26.5" not including the passage ways which adds another 1/2" or so and also does not include the couplers. St. Aubins had the set of 3 on their website about a month ago and I jumped on them, the boxes looked like they had some show miles on them. 

I have 4 of them. They look pretty good on the 12.5' and 11.5' curves but could stand to be on a larger diameter to look totally prototypical (in my opinion) ... they seemed really long when I was playing with them on the 8' loop in the living room. 

Tom


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks tom, that's useful to know.


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The Aristo streamliners are shorter if I remember right as I had a set of the "new & improved" ATSF ones that were shorter than a MTH coach car. I sold the Aristo's as I thought they looked dumb being short and squatty.


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

So MTH is still committed to 1/32?


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a conversation with "Dr. Rivet" at his Spring steamup and he said he thinks MTH is gradually moving toward 1:29--upscaling some cars, for example


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Lownote 
' 
If true, that's even better news. 

Nate


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That would be great news, but is there ANY MTH car or loco that scales out less than 1:32? 

(questioning the word "slowly") 

Regards, Greg


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Why do we need another manufacturer making 1:29 semi-scale trains ?


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well the comment came from "Dr. Rivet," who calls himself that for a reason. He's a stickler for accuracy. He pointed out that the MTH flatcar was very big for 1:29, bigger than its prototype, and he said he observed MTH reefers and boxcars getting bigger over the years. I have no idea if it's true or not. I have an MTH Reefer and an MTH flatcar. The flatcar seems oversized but the reefer seems like legit 1:32


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that "over sized" flat car has been around for several years. I have never heard an explanation for it's odd ball size other than the Chinese screwed MTH and used an existing mold. For those modeling in 1:32 its a red flag item.


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Too bad, you hear a lot of stories like that coming out of China. Must think it's one big game, in fact I think I read something to that effect. But what can a company do that has everything dumped in one basket?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the first I have heard of MTH straying from 1:32.... it would be a radical change for them... but who knows... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 26 Jul 2009 05:15 PM 
Why do we need another manufacturer making 1:29 semi-scale trains ? 



Because its a better idea than making 1:32 semi-scale trains? 

just because MTH uses the "correct" scale, doesnt make them "more accurate"..
I have been arguing for years that MTH trains are much more "toy like" than Aristo or USA trains..

I have always thought Aristo and USA make much better scale models than MTH..even with the wrong gauge..
MTH let their O-scale, 3-rail ,"toy train style" heritage influence their 1/32 scale line..which IMO is a bad thing.. 


IMO, if MTH came over to 1/29 that would be great!

it would probably increase their sales dramatically..
I for one would begin considering buying MTH in 1/29 scale..and I never will in 1/32 scale..


Scot


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm with you Scott!

Hey guys, I just got an email from Trainworld. Pricing on the MTH locomotives has been slashed, $600 for a hudson, $600 for a GG1, $1k for a Triplex. From the past, when the closeout kings start cutting prices, that means either:

a. they've bought the remaining stock from whatever manufacturer or
b. they're clearing out stock that doesn't move.

Whatever. You guys that like em, go buy em!! In this hobby, if you like something and find it availble, it is better not to wait...


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

"Using the correct scale doesn't make it more accurate""?? Let's start with that statement. It sound like making it larger doesn't make it bigger.. WTF 
Now if MTH starts making 1:29 are you going to by MORE trains, keep buying from your current favorite brand and buy from MTH, or just spread your money around? Who will be the first 1:29 manufacturer to go the way of LGB ?? 
I'll keep watching the classifieds for the unwanted MTH cars... sounds like their not worth much, cheap is good when your just going to drag them around the track and get them all full of steam oil.....hehe


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 27 Jul 2009 02:16 PM 
"Using the correct scale doesn't make it more accurate""?? Let's start with that statement. It sound like making it larger doesn't make it bigger.. WTF 




Jeff,
I dont think you understood my point..
to use extreme examples..

lets say this is a 1/29 scale diesel:
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 


yes, the gauge is wrong..but the rest is a nicely detailed scale model..

"to scale" in all respects except gauge.. 


Now lets say this was a 1/32 scale diesel:
http://www.modeltrainsyard.com/wp-c...engine.jpg 

(it isnt really..but just pretend it is for the sake of the demonstration..)

yes, the 1/32 scale diesel is now "the correct scale"..
but so what?

its just a crude toy in "the correct scale"..
scale, by itself, means nothing.. 


thats what I meant by "using the correct scale doesnt make it more accurate"..

"the correct scale" alone doesn't necessarily make a good model..
to me, MTH has always been more on the "toy train" side of the spectrum..like O-gauge 3 rail..

thats fine if thats what you are into..Lionel has a huge following..thats fine..its just not for me.
I would take a USA trains or Aristo 1/29 scale diesel anyday over a MTH 1/32 scale diesel..because I think they are simply better models..


and yes, I might actually buy more if MTH joined 1/29..and not just spread the same amount of money over more manufacturers..
because MTH would probably make models I would want, that Aristo or USA trains dont make..

for example, I love the Baldwin VO1000..I would buy one in 1/29..but not in 1/32..


(I would buy one in 1/29 if the quality was there..MTH diesels have been getting better! im actually very impressed by their new EMD F3..it looks great..
but even so, I still dont want anything in 1/32 scale..
if MTH did join 1/29 they would have to match USA and Aristo detail..)



Scot


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've never seen MTH's stuff as toy like, although I admit all the logo/ad boxcars have zero appeal to me. The engines are far more detailed than Aristo's, at least the steam engines are. The passenger cars are a little toy like, maybe

But I keep observing that in my opinion, 1:32 is probably better if you like mainline, standard gage but don't have a really big RR. I just cut down my aristo mikado and married it to a Lionel Atlantic shell and cab, and also refurbished an old Atlantic. Both of them look a lot better on 8 foot curves--less overhang. But I started with 1:29 and I'm committed to it now, and it does "pop" visually in a way that 1:32 doesn't. I was originally interested in the MTH cars because they were shorter and scaled a little smaller. I keep hoping to actually SEE some.

It's an old debate over scale--not trying to start a fight


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, I understand the higher level of detail, I just have no use for 1:29 It just looks too large behind my 1:32 live steamers, which is why I ended my post with my final comment. I would like to see some heavyweight in 1:32 that don't cost $600-$700 a piece! but I don't think thats going to happen...


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Or MTH could dabble in 1/29 to sell more stuff that would give them the capital needed to improve and increase their 1/32 line. Either, MTH, IMHO, needs to get DCS to operate on battery r/c before I'd consider them. And I have strongly considered them in the past. But I have decided to go battery r/c and that counts MTH out. Plus MTH needs to figure a way to keep stuff stocked like Aristo and USAT. USAT is the best at doing that.


----------



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I have a theory about the 1:29 and 1:32 debate. When I was looking at my initial purchases of engines and the like, I was comparing an Aristo Diesel (don't remember which one) and an MTH one. They were both sitting on the counter, essentially eye level. The 1:29 didn't look right compared to the 1:32, it was too tall. But, put both of them on the ground and look down at them and I think the 1:29 might look more correct because of the viewing angle. Remember you are looking down on a locomotive from a scale 150' in the air if it is on the ground. 

Price cutting MTH product may be due to MTH preparing to come out with their new sound and control system, PS3. Once the new engines come out, I have a feeling they will sell a lot more product since the new controls will also respond to DCC commands. Anything with the old controls will probably be difficult to move after that. 

As far as detail goes, I love lots of detail. But, there is the level of detail that goes on the mantle and a different level of detail that gets carted out to the layout every time the trains are run. I haven't procured carriers for the engines yet but I need to get one for the Hudson since it seems to be far more fragile than the F7 set that I have. The rest of the cars appear to be able to take the handling as long as I don't drop one. 

Tom


----------



## yardtrain (Feb 18, 2008)

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. MTH is toy like, 1:32 doesn't look right. 

I have a few LGB cattle cars with cattle and sheep sounds, did any one notice the Philips head screw in the door area? Plastic wheels? Is that not toy like! 
1:29 scale bodies that are too big for their trucks, is that not toy like! 

Yes O-Scale was termed the toy train in the 50's and MTH started in O-Scale but what does that have to do with 1:32 MTH ? Let me answer that "Nothing" 
MTH Trains smoke and sound like the real thing, I have seen the smoke other produce and have heard the silence from no sound systems. Is that not Toy like 

I recently took my MTH Steamer to a local show, It got all the attention when it was running from young and old. (must be it’s toy like features). It looked right at home. The 1:29 engines looks to large kind of like a toy. 

The Mystery of MTH is they are the 1st company to do Garden Trains right


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

All our trains are toylike when run on our track. Anybody have 10 scale miles of track? 100? 1000. Anybody have scale curves? 
I don't and I don't care! 

LGB? Apples and oranges 

People buy what they like. 

Now if MTH did some original small engines in 24:1 then they would be doing something right....for me. lol 

John


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote "then they would be doing something right....for me. lol" 
John, I think you got it right. I want the 1:32, but I would like to see some earlier freight and passenger cars. 
It's all about what we as individuals want. We are all running on gauge one track, and thats where our hobby as one group ends and and a "group of one (or a few) begins"


----------



## yardtrain (Feb 18, 2008)

I dont think you understood my point.. 
to use extreme examples.. 

lets say this is a 1/29 scale diesel: 
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 


yes, the gauge is wrong..but the rest is a nicely detailed scale model.. 

"to scale" in all respects except gauge.. 


Now lets say this was a 1/32 scale diesel: 
http://www.modeltrainsyard.com/wp-c...engine.jpg 

(it isnt really..but just pretend it is for the sake of the demonstration..) 

yes, the 1/32 scale diesel is now "the correct scale".. 
but so what? 

its just a crude toy in "the correct scale".. 
scale, by itself, means nothing.. 



Scotty, I do not understand your analogy I like the way they hide the oversize body look in the heavy plastic trucks. 
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 

Why not put a picture of the Dash 9 against the MTH Dash 8?


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By yardtrain on 24 Aug 2009 04:05 PM 
I dont think you understood my point.. 
to use extreme examples.. 

lets say this is a 1/29 scale diesel: 
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 


yes, the gauge is wrong..but the rest is a nicely detailed scale model.. 

"to scale" in all respects except gauge.. 


Now lets say this was a 1/32 scale diesel: 
http://www.modeltrainsyard.com/wp-c...engine.jpg 

(it isnt really..but just pretend it is for the sake of the demonstration..) 

yes, the 1/32 scale diesel is now "the correct scale".. 
but so what? 

its just a crude toy in "the correct scale".. 
scale, by itself, means nothing.. 



Scooty, I do not understand your analogy I like the way they hide the oversize body look in the heavy plastic trucks. 
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 

Why not put a picture of the Dash 9 against the MTH Dash 8? 





YT,
I can see how it would be hard to distinguish the differences, if you arent familiar with them..
its sort of like the difference between a gunuine Shelby Cobra and a "kitcar replica" Shelby Cobra..
at a glance, most people wont see a difference..but to "Shelby people" the differences are gigantic..

Why not put a picture of the Dash 9 against the MTH Dash 8?

good idea!









Here is the MTH Dash-8:
http://www.railking.co.uk/gauge1/mth_jpeg/70-2024-1.jpg 

And here is the Aristo Dash-9 again:
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Das..._0021a.JPG 



the differences are substantial, to me..and to others..

the MTH model has the awful "swinging pilot" from the O-scale 3-rail world..overall details are simplified compared to the Aristo..
I think the MTH model might also be compressed (too short) so it will get around sharper curves..
they really arent in the same league at all..
the Aristo is MUCH better detailed, and much more accurate in all respects except for the gauge..
the MTH model is far LESS accurate overall, and much cruder, but has the "correct" gauge..which IMO is not a plus, because of all the other negatives.

(to be fair, MTH *has* been improving lately! they have mostly stopped using the "swinging pilot"..which is a huge plus..
and like I said above, I am very impressed with the MTH F-units..they really got the bulldog nose right! the USA trains F3 nose is squashed, too short, looks all wrong,
and the LGB units are screwey as to scale..so actually, if I was going to buy a set of F-units, I would consider MTH! I would like them even better if they were 1/29 scale!  


I dont know how much more I can explain it..
its the "toy train" thing..I have never liked it..im not a Lionel fan. 

if you cant see it..well..I dont know what else I can say..
just believe me, the differences are big, and they are real..

I know it might not make sense logically, but the 1/29 Aristo model really is a much more accurate scale model than the MTH loco..
even with the wrong gauge.. 


Scot


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott - I suppose you know that the MTH "swinging pilot" can be eliminated? As in, the truck can be locked in place like an Aristo Dash 9? 
So I guess that must not really be the problem for you. I can not speak to the scale details, as I don't know what the originals really look like. But the pilots can be modified. All that you lose when you lock the pilot is the ability to go around small curves, which the aristo engine can not do anyway. 

John


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I am amazed at some of the comments I have just read on this thread. When some people say the 1/29 scale stuff is more detailed, it seems that those people havent seen a MTH model from close. take the FA1 manufactured in 1/29 scale it sits too high off its trucks and looks absolutely toy like, look at the oversize grab Irons on most products of the same manufacturer. Look at the horrible wheels on the steam locomotives of same manufacturer (and never mind the very bad alloy they use to make them which cruds up in one lap), look at the way oversize rivets on their heavyweight cars. 
Now some of MTH has compromises too, like the shortened lightweight coaches (70 scale feet instead of 84') The body of the GG1 that is too high over the trucks (can be corrected in less than an hour), but these compromises have been made because most modelers use ridiculously short radiusses. But look at a VO1000, a F unit or a PA1 (once you have mounted kadees on them 'which is planed for by the manufacturer with holes drilled and tapped!) and installed the scale pilots. The proportions, the detailing is superb the grabs are scale size, the operation is perfect. The MTH flat is a very good reproduction of the 50' flats built in the USA with cast integral frames around the late '30s very closer to the PRR F 30 D flat car illustrated in the Keystone Volume 46 N° 3 page 37. and yes it is 1/32 scale , thank god. There is a lot of misinformation from contributors who don't have the expertise regarding this 1/29 scale versus 1/32 scale. Now I understand people who have invested in stuff the wrong scale for 25 years defending their point of vue but lets be serious and stop misinforming people. The fact is that 1/32 is the accurate scale.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

You were fine until your last three sentences, it was those last three sentences where you left factual debate 
and descended into unvalidated opinion. 

There is a lot of misinformation from contributors who don't have the expertise regarding this 1/29 scale versus 1/32 scale. 

No misinformation at all..just debating the topic using facts about both scales. 
And we all understand it just as well as you do...suggesting you are more "expert" than someone else, who you know nothing about, is just rude. 

Now I understand people who have invested in stuff the wrong scale for 25 years defending their point of vue but lets be serious and stop misinforming people. 

again, there is no misinformation in this thread. 
and there is also no such thing as a "wrong scale".. 
If you want to defend 1/32 as the "right scale" you better have the most amazing scale models ever created!  
if you dont, I will be able to find plenty "wrong" about them..which makes "wrong scale" a completely useless and pointless phrase. 

The fact is that 1/32 is the accurate scale. 

For gauge only..and for nothing else. 
but there is a lot more than track gauge that makes a "good scale model".. 
which is what this thread is all about.. 
You gave examples of where some 1/32 models are better detailed than some 1/29 scale models.. 
cherry-picking the "good" 1/32 models, and cherry-picking the "bad" 1/29 models.. 
well that's fine, but all you did is show that some specific 1/32 models are better detailed than some specific 1/29 scale models.. 
that's like saying some HO scale models are better detailed than some N scale models..its a pointless comparison. 

I can do the exact same thing to show where 1/29 has some much better scale models than does 1/32.. 
which I did in some of the posts above.. 
We are both right, depending on which facts we want to focus on, and which facts we want to ignore. 

Fact: Some 1/29 scale models are much better detailed and accurate "scale models" than some 1/32 scale models. 
Fact: Some 1/32 scale models are much better detailed and accurate "scale models" than some 1/29 scale models. 
Fact: 1/32 is technically the correct scale for the gauge. 
Fact: Many people dont care. 
Fact: That does not automatically make 1/32 the "more accurate scale", overall, if you focus on the entire model. 
because there is a lot more to it than just track gauge. 

What else is there to talk about? 
that's the end of the debate right there.. 
the rest is simply differences of opinion on what we like, or dont like, which is personal and subjective, and ultimately meaningless to anyone else. 

Scot


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, WELL STATED. I have a lot of 1:29 and no, zero, zip, nada 1:32. I like it. My history with LGB's entry into standard gauge dictated my choice many years ago. I could care less about the track gauge. If it fit my sense of proportion I am happy. All of my buildings are approximately 1:24. 1:29 looks OK, but 1:32 trains would require me to swap out structures. There has been a lot of discussion of this in the past, since 2009. Du-b, Why don't you review that before you resurrect a discussion that has been discussed to a draw. Chuck


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot 
If you want a true comparison (at least in live steam) try 1:29 Mikado(Aristocraft) vs. 1:32 Mikado (Aster w/ detail kit). No cherry picking... 1:29 K4 Pacific (Accucraft) vs 1:32 (Aster). The only reservation is that the models were not build in the same era so option for production process will have changed through the years (Aster earlier model).

Personally, those who enjoy the hobby no matter the "correct scale" are okay with me: Enjoy the hobby!


----------

