# Boiler making



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nearing completion of 9 boilers (3 K4, 3 Hudsons, 3 Mikado) that will be in stock for September...coal, alcohol or ceramic burner (gas). On drawing board for next round: Aster Berk (coal) and T1 (coal)

Link to photos of the process for boiler making:

TRS Boilers by Justin


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Nice looking work Charles. I like your tab work on the parts. Are all 9 boilers going to be dry back? Always like to see what you guys are up to.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles,

Thank you for posting the photos. Always an education. I had never before seen a photo of so many complex boilers under construction at the same time. Your message implied that they were not all for coal firing. What are the different firebox arrangements for the different fuel types?

Steve


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, thats amazing. Lots of skill and worked required.


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Very nice work. I like the rod with the grove, that he uses for modelling the boiler. Impressive.


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## Police1987 (Jun 16, 2012)

How much are they. And what is the average time it takes to make one?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Police1987 on 18 Aug 2012 06:32 AM 
How much are they. And what is the average time it takes to make one? Pricing depends on: 
There are options1) Boiler purchase only 2) Drop in boiler with directions on how to install (along with other things you would have to do to accommodate the boiler e.g. tender changes,etc3) TRS installation of boiler. Finally, choose either gas, alcohol or coal fired.

BTW- Anyone interest needs to contact us through the TRS website (sponsor banner link) we do not publicly discuss cost due to options and individual needs. 

Time...depends on skill and complexity

Steve
The fireboxes are the same for each engine just modified for the fuel delivery


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

What are you guys using to cut the copper with? Water jet? 
That is some amazing, impressive work!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't think I'd want to try 9 at a time. 1 was more than enough. 









I think I have the under construction photos someplace, but I don't want to further hi-jack the thread


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

All of the design work is being done up here in N.E. Pennsylvania, with the parts cut by waterjet. Appreciate all of the positive comments.

Mik, I never noticed in any of your threads, but did you weld the boiler yourself? Still trying to get myself there with my welding as I have a VERY large boiler to build for myself in the not so distant future.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

SE, Yes I welded the boiler. I used to have my weld certs. 

I did EVERYTHING "by the book" ... Literally, I still have the relevant 1993 ASME code sections ... to fit under Section I, Part PMB, and the Communewealth of Pennsyltucky STILL won't inspect it. (Ohio has no problem with it, So I'll just run it at shows there, or in my yard) 

The thread on my roller project is here: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/116277/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Charles 
Awesome work 
Will they all be 5 small and one big flue 
What are the sizes/wall thickness 
Are you going with the 1:20 rule or just the same size flues on all of the boilers 
Will the superheaters be "U" type originating in the smokebox or straight through from the backhead?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bille1906 on 02 Sep 2012 10:39 AM 
Charles 
Awesome work 
Will they all be 5 small and one big flue 
What are the sizes/wall thickness 
Are you going with the 1:20 rule or just the same size flues on all of the boilers 
Will the superheaters be "U" type originating in the smokebox or straight through from the backhead? Bill
The accolades for boilers belong to Justin in coordination with Ryan. I will defer to them as to the process for making build decisions. Overall, the design of the K4, Mike, NYC Hudson were done to allow economy of material along with saving time in the assembly process. I have to say that given the time frame of 9 boilers in a month was due to keeping similarities in each basic boiler design as you have denoted. Unlike those 3 the J611 (probably the upcoming T1 and Berkshire) will be different. There are a few of the first run Aster K4/Mike/Hudson boilers in stock...

Boiler builds


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Continued progress on the N & W J class locomotive:

J611 boiler 


Great fit on Mikado and outer wrapper shell

Aster Mikado

Nine boilers ready for final testing

Boiler lineup


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Starting the final fitting process toward placing all the special bits to make steam on the N & W Class J 611










Fireman's view


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I didn't see any photos of the mudring closed in around the base of the firebox. the one photo I saw shows the base open yet and the sides somewhat distorted by heat. I imagine you will straighten this out. Was your assembly precise enough that you could just fit in a pre-cut peice? mine wasn't


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 04 Sep 2012 08:23 AM 
I didn't see any photos of the mudring closed in around the base of the firebox. the one photo I saw shows the base open yet and the sides somewhat distorted by heat. I imagine you will straighten this out. Was your assembly precise enough that you could just fit in a pre-cut peice? mine wasn't 

Eric
I am assuming the mudring query is for the J611, here is a photo link:

J611 mugring 
The component pieces are waterjet cut and very precise as to fit and procedure of boiler build:

Boiler fire boxes 


Boiler Sheet cutout 

FireboxBoilertube fit 

Backhead firebox fit

Backheadplate boilerfit


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bille1906 on 02 Sep 2012 10:39 AM 
Charles 
Awesome work 
Will they all be 5 small and one big flue 
What are the sizes/wall thickness 
Are you going with the 1:20 rule or just the same size flues on all of the boilers 
Will the superheaters be "U" type originating in the smokebox or straight through from the backhead? 

Hi Bill,
For this run of 9 boilers, all had the same amount and size of flues. They are 3/8" O.D. and 5/8" O.D with a 0.035" wall. No specific formula was used, I generally fit as large a firebox as I can and then the largest flue area that I can. All of these boilers have the same boiler barrel O.D. and roughly the same usable firebox volume so the same flue layout was used for all three models. Layout and size was also determined by the want to have a return type superheater.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Eric,
All of the mudrings were closed up. For the Aster boilers the used of formers and accurately cut parts allowed most of the boiler to pretty much fit together nicely. Had we hd mudring parts cut, they would have fit in rather nicely. As it was, pieces of 1/8" thick material were ripped to the required width and fitted into place. The distortion seen in the pictures was just from picking up and handling the annealed copper and was easily straightened out before the mudrings were installed.


For a personal project I'm thinking about fitting it with a castellated barrel joint instead of a lap joint to see the difference in assembly times and jig/former requirements.

Chuck, Hard to believe that boiler almost looks small sitting in the chassis of the J!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Justin 
I just finished converting my Quad from a poker burner to locomotive type boilers. Surprisingly I used the same size flues as you did. As I have two boilers, they are both short with a flue length of only 7". A friend thought the 3/8 OD tubes might be too small and a group of us had some lively email discussions on flue diameter vs length. In reading Harris and Evans, two experts on the subject from years back, There are several formulas for the perfect ratio but a ratio of 1:20 of diameter to length seems to be a rule of thumb. Then I just heard that Kozo has now gone from 10mm to 20mm flues and says they are easier to solder and seem to preform just as well 
With the large wet firebox you are using the actual flue size probably isn't that critical but where we are dealing with articulated engines where the drivers interfere with the firebox and thus reduce the firebox height such as in the Quad it is. I am now planning a 2-6-6-2 Uintah and have the same problem of the rear driver being under the firebox but here the flues will be 10" long so I am thinking of 1/2" OD for the small and 5/8" od for the large 
What do you think


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill,
Just like so many other things, flue length vs. diameter will always be one of those subject that no two people will ever agree on. I'm well aware of the formulas, and they are a great goal to strive for. Unfortunately, in these small engines we're kind of stuck making do, especially with the longer mainline engines. Also, if I remember correctly the purpose of the 1:20 rule is to help keep velocities in the flue from getting too great. This is fine, but there comes a point where you're losing open flue area in order to fit larger tubes. It's all a tradeoff, as so much is in these small engines.

The bulk of my experience is from the larger ride on engines, starting with a 7.5" gauge american. The boiler was designed for propane firing and only had 1/2" I.D. copper flues, which many would say wouldn't work well on coal but that engine ran very well for quite a few years. Coming down into the smaller scales I converted my K27 to run on coal. I used several 3/8" flues and one 1/2" flue for the superheater, and even though the flues don't fall within the 1:20 rules then engine is never at a want for steam. Realize, of course, that these rules also are mainly for coal fired engines where a draft through the fire is required in order to make any pressure. With a gas fired boiler where the heat is independent of draft, you want to keep as much heat in the firebox as possible and therefore to keep the flue velocities also as low as possible, which means fitting the largest flues possible. IF you had room, I'd almost be tempted to see how fitting two 3/4" flues would work. If you ran the superheater line from the backhead to the front of the locomotive you could put a smaller (say 3/8" or 1/2") flue in the top or bottom arc areas between the fire tubes in order to keep the fire tubes clear.

I hope my rambling made some sort of sense. I tend to have a hard time getting my thoughts into words so if something doesn't quite sound right let me know. Also, keep in mind that a lot of my ideas are just gut feelings. I haven't really played around much with gas firing and may be way off base with it. But, I do try to absorb as much as I can from several different sources for what that's worth. I'd love to see two different boilers done side by side with one made with a bunch of smaller flues and one with few very large flues to see if there was any discernible difference between the two. I look forward to your project, and not just because I like those engines. Keep us updated or feel free to email me so I can follow along so that I can see how everything goes.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Justin
Please continue to ramble
here is what I will be facing on the Uintah

As you can see the firebox will only be 5/16" below the bottom of the boiler tube because of the rear driver. The ash pan is a triangular shape between the driver and pony
The frame is showing behind it so I am thinking there are two outside and one inside ash pans. Anyway, that's what I am thinking of doing. I can use the ash pan areas form my ceramic burner gas boxes. The barrel will be 3" and the firebox will be 3' x 5.5" by only 1.8" high
I am on vacation for three weeks but when I get back, I plan on getting the new boilers fitted into the quad and doing some track testing. I will need to get a lot of production out of the Quad design as the cylinders will be bigger on the Uintah


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