# Thoughts on NMRA and other organizations



## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Hello all,

I would like your comments on what you think of NMRA and/or other organizations?

How effective are they?
Are they worth joining?
Which ones do you (if any) belong to?
Which ones would you consider to be the best?
Which organization has promoted the Large Scale effectively?
 Thanks
Rich


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Dont think the NMRA membership has alot of bearing on large scale, they seam to have missed the boat on it, there are many members who do LS but the vast majority is overwhelmingly HO oriented, even N and O users have complained about that. There primary reason for being was the establishment of universal scale standards that would allow everything to run well together, but I think that unlike in the past with HO and N standards, they are currently too ineffective to have any real impact of getting LS manufacturers to follow any NMRA guidelines, as they have been doing there own thing for so long and are pretty well established with their own standards, good or bad. They should have started courting Bachmann and Aristo back in 1990.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Other organizations: 
1. it depends on the organizatgion. 
2. it depends. 
3. Local clubs, forums 
4. MLS (ha ha) and any local clubs (but be prepared for politics) 
5. I think the forums, and individuals who have great web sites, like George Schreyer, the OVGRS group, etc. 

NMRA: (considering large scale) 
1. Not 
2. No 
3. No others it seems, G1MRA might be worth it for some, not 1:29 people 
4. G1MRA, but not real great for 1:29 
5. not the NMRA 

Very disappointed in the NMRA, too much politics and not enough common sense, just HO thinking and arrogance scaled up... 

The recent track and wheel standards underscore this... 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

_"__I have never helped to organize youth, and when I was young myself I successfully avoided being organized." -- C. S. Lewis_


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I would echo Greg's sentiments almost exactly! I was a member of the NMRA for _one_ year. Did I do anything as a member? Nope. I joined the _National _organization. I still had to pay dues to the _Regional_ organization and then to our local _State_ organization before I would have been able to do anything with my membership!!! (Biggest waste of $$ I have spent on this hobby in my opinion...) Do they do some good? Yes, but they _are_ political and they don't understand Large Scale and the people who model in it!! They have an autocratic attitude and they keep re-inventing the wheel with regard to "standards!" That's my opinion but hey, you may really like them! They DO have an incredible resource library on-line!


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

I've always objected to the NMRA's view of modeling as something between a secret society and a competitive sport. 
I do belong to G1MRA, they've a great news letter and publications. 

Harvey C.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Torby on 12 Oct 2009 04:10 PM 
_"__I have never helped to organize youth, and when I was young myself I successfully avoided being organized." -- C. S. Lewis_ 

Now that is funny









I have also followed that idea all through my life. I didn't know it was put to words


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

G1MRA is an excellent organization. They have been around for 60+ years and established the right kind of standards that allow you to run on member tracks. They also have a great body of knowledge and publications written by masters that know what they are doing. Their quarterly magazine is probably the most professionally done pub on any subject. The only drawback is they do UK profile in 3/8" = 1' and 10mm = 1' Some American, but not much


Another great organization is The Association of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers. Pretty much same as G1MRA, but it's UK narrow gauge, 16mm = 1' on Gauge 0 track


There's been a lot of NMRA political shenanigans on various forums. They don't care much for us large scale types.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...The recent track and wheel standards underscore this... 

I've long been no fan of the NMRA, often citing their extreme lack of involvement and even ignorance towards large scale. Much of the criticism heaped upon them by others in this thread mirrors much of my own personal experience, and I have never felt the need to join for those reasons. However, I have to address Greg's statements towards the current wheel and track standards. Note: There is a distinct difference between what is currently being proposed for large scale and the ones currently on the web site. The numbers covering large scale in what is on the web site are essentially null and void, pending the adoption of what the large scale standards committee has put together. Greg and I have covered this in previous threads. Read into the fact that the web site hasn't been updated to note that fact whatever you care to read into it. I prefer to err on the "it's a _volunteer_ organization, and sometimes things don't happen as quickly as others on the outside would deem appropriate." I'm the volunteer editor of the Friends of the EBT's alleged "quarterly" magazine. I know how easy it is for things to get pushed aside for lack of time and other commitments--regardless of how "quick and easy" the change might be to make. 

Anyway, back to the wheel and track standards. I got involved in that process after receiving a copy of what the NMRA had been proposing. It was--true to what I believed to be common within the NMRA--full of a complete misunderstanding of what Large Scale was all about. The numbers seemed cobbled together in such a way so to not coincide with anything any of the other standards groups (G1MRA and MOROP) were close to using, nor did it match anything the manufacturers were doing--which seemed only coincidentally close to either G1MRA or MOROP in their own right. I sent a rather lengthy essay to the NMRA explaining my issues with the proposed standards, and being very frank about my opinion of the NMRA and its involvement with the Large Scale community. (Essentially, it said something to the tune of "why are you bothering?") What I received back surprised me. I was expecting a cordial "thank you for your comments" at the most. Instead, they were very up front about their lack of understanding of the Large Scale community, admitted there's defintely room for improvement in the relationship between the two groups, and invited me to take on a leadership role in developing workable wheel and track standards for Large Scale. I took them up on their offer. 

Over the next 18 months or so, we assembled data on what standards were already in place, what the various manufacters were doing relative to those standards, how amenable they would be to sliding one way or another towards a consistent standard, etc., and so forth. Then we presented our proposal to the NMRA's standards committee, andwent back and forth a few times ironing out little details so the standards would be consistent in format with those for the smaller scales (and did so without sacrificing any of our base numbers). The end result is currently undergoing the review process prior to being voted on for adoption. There's a lot of overlap between G1MRA and the proposed NMRA numbers that hasn't been there in previous standards proposals. I need to find out where we are in that process, because I do want to get the proposal out in public 

Through this entire process, there's been a very productive dialogue with some higher-ups in the NMRA (who are also large scalers) about what can be done to bring the two camps a bit closer together. Up to this point, it's been just that--a dialogue. We haven't hammered out any specific "action items" or anything like that by which we can gauge progress, but it does seem that there is at the very least an underlying sentiment to want to work to change the perception of large scale within the NMRA and vice versa. Where that goes is anyone's guess, but I do believe both camps can benefit from a closer sense of cooperation. I'm still not yet to the point of ponying up my dues--perhaps I'll do that when the NMRA buys a 1/4-page ad in GR--but at least at some levels there seems to be room for positive growth. There are stereotypes on both sides of the equation that need to be broken down. You don't do that by turning your back. 

Later, 

K


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

K,

Thanks for the great write up on this. I can now probably explain why I was asking. This past weekend I met some folks at a local train show (Holland, MI) and there was actually quite a bit of large scale displays and product for sale. As I was discussing with the group I indicated my summer project of the C&RR Railroad (highlighted here!). One of the gentlemen brought up the fact that in 2012 the NMRA is hosting its annual convention in Grand Rapids, MI and that they were looking for large scale garden railways to feature for tours. I said I was more than willing to provide that so he took my information and will be scheduling an inspection tour. Now that being said I also thought if I do host visits to my railway that I should also be a member of the association putting on the show.

If this is a way to help put together the communities, I would gladly do it.







Thoughts, ideas?

Rich


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin did a great job explaining large scale model railroading to the masses in a recent issue of Scale Rails, the NMRA's monthly magazine. So all of the organization's 20,000 or so members should be informed. Unfortunately, large scale is too splintered to ever fit within the framework of the NMRA. For example, some of us are garden railroaders, others are indoor modelers. Some run trains through an envirenment that replicates our full-scale world, while others simply run trains through their flower gardens. A few large scalers build museum quality models, others are content to let a birdhouse serve as a railroad station, or whatever. 
There's no right or wrong. It's the way we are. 

Like Steve, I find the NMRA's resource library (the Kalmbach Memorial Library, actually) extremely useful, especially when trying to find an old magazine article, building plan or whatever. So I continue to support the organization by maintaining my membership. But I often feel that the group's general membership doesn't understand or really care about large scale.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

My opinion is that MLS is the best organization to belong to and support. I would have given up long ago if it were not for this forum and all the great help I've received here. 

Best, 
TJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To be clear Kevin, I do appreciate what you are trying to do, you may be our only hope in the track and wheel standards "arena". The NMRA is lucky to have you and that you are still doing battle. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Rich.... 
Where did you learn to pitch grenades like that? 
GOOD JOB! 

Kevin- 
You get zapped by a reasonableness-ray instead of the enema-ray? 

They want to bring the factions closer? 
Step one, pitch the Rabid Chihuahua out....PERMANENTLY....and get the "push" for DCC mandated in LS locos from the manufacturer stopped. 

Then, step two, get them to butt out. 

Personal observation......they, by association, have alienated the few who might have been interested. 

Arrogant little.......(deleted).....who make statements such as "manufacturers WILL adopt" has certainly removed me from the possibility of ever, and I mean ever, getting "on-board" with their......stuff.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

*Here I speak as a private individual.*

The NMRA is like a ceolacanth -a living fossil. While other organizations have grown and developed it seeks to maintain the status quo -with itself at the top. It does not seem to have any modern relevance -let alone need to exist... It has become dominated by one individual and has followed the "Leninist" Maxim 


"In any closed society power will pass to power seekers -rather than power users".

I am sorry -but I find the NMRA to be worthless.


regards

ralph


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

It's the "Resistance is Futile, You WILL Be Assimilated" attitude that I can't get by.... 

There are too many people that are doing things too many different ways with the same stuff. "Standards" should be very carefully thought out before being proposed. 

Also any attempt to enforce "finescale" standards will be doomed to failure. Finescale doesn't work very well when the environment doesn't scale.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Rich you dont necessarily HAVE to be a member of a group to host a tour, maybe if it goes well and you get along well with the local members joining up might be a good way to thank them for allowing your layout on the tour, but it IS alot of money to join, and you might find you may not get out of it in regards to what they expect you to put into it with the fees. take it a step at a time, see how the inspection tour goes then think about it.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not an NMRA member so please correct me if I am wrong here.

A year ago I was asked to give a clinic at an NMRA Regional convention. I was politely told by the clinic chairperson that I was welcome to partake in convention activities like layout tours without paying the convention fee IF I joined the NMRA. The reason given was that the NMRA liability insurance did not cover non members on NMRA activities.

I would assume that the same thought would preclude a layout tour of a non NMRA member?

Regards ... Doug


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi
The NMRA has its share of flaws and failures and many of these messages accurately reflect that. (Based on my experience with a few of their power seeking members and staff years ago.) I could go into my own version, but it probably doesn't deal with your situation.


The good news is that you can set most of that aside and focus on sharing your railroad with motivated modelers on a major holiday about trains. If your layout does make it on one of the official tours (usually with busloads of visitors) its a major coup that will provide you about ten years or more of recognition in the train modeling community nationally and in your region. 


I helped as a volunteer and organized an NMRA convention in our area years ago. They have a "play book" with the experience garnered from running conventions largely by volunteers in many areas of the country for years. However, each local organizing group puts their own spin on it. The "Play book" has all sorts of fairly harsh realities that are the product of many years of experience (that most local organizers could never accumulate in one lifetime). No, I don't have a copy. If the local organizers have one it will be closely gaurded. You can get info. relevant to displays on tour from the local organizers in most instances. 


On the one hand the quality of the railroad as a destination for visitors will be a big consideration and on the other a variety of practical realities some of which are beyond your control (such as enough space to move buses on your local street). Do check on insurance and other items that protect your interests (it's rare for the organizers to raise these concerns for you).

I suggest hosting a casual get together for the whole layout tour committee at your place. Have some refreshments and a good talk about what's involved and walk through, together, how various parts pf the experience will be handled. Get timelines and commitments straight. A national convention is a huge commitment for the local organizers and will show their weaknesses or launch them to a higher plane. 



Bottom Line - If your railroad qualifies (which can be largely based on personalities) and you can work with the local organizing committee members, then go for it! Otherwise wish them well, and quickly run away!


Let us know what you're thinking and how it develps. Send pictures just because I love pictures.









Regards,

Web


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

There are some really great people in the NMRA (and some not so). They hold some informative workshops and have visits at layouts in people's homes, tho they seem averse to trains running outdoor and even more averse to 7/8 scale, supported by the fact that 7/8 scale was added to their Wiki site and then deleted by their moderator, wanting to banish scales that are "unauthorized."

So there you have my mixed review.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

an "unathorized scale"???? 

WTF?? 

Are the scale Gestapo going to raid my house? This is nuts.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been involved with Model Railroading since 1984, 25 years now.
started with HO scale as a teenager in the 80's, and have been involved in Large Scale since 2002.
I have read a LOT of model railroading magazines over the last 25 years..and books,
and I look up and read model train stuff pretty much every day on the internet..for the past 10 years..
I consider myself very engaged in the hobby, and keep up with what is going on out in the world..
having said all that:


*How effective are they?* 
Never gave it a thought..I dont know anything about them..


*Are they worth joining?
*apparently not! not worth it to me anyway..


*Which ones do you (if any) belong to?*
None..


*Which ones would you consider to be the best?
*No idea..I know nothing about them.


*Which organization has promoted the Large Scale effectively?*
No idea..I really dont know what they do, or why they even exist..


Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Longer ago than I care to admit, sometime around 1990 plus or minus there was a NMRA convention in Denver. I had my garden railway on tour, it was a fantastic experience. I was not and and have never been a member of NMRA.

Chuck N


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have never been fond of the organization as the cost for one gave me nothing in return. I have been in the hobby for 50 plus years. I think they need to get some folks in there that are RR type folks in stead of wanabees RR. I think if they would look especially for folks on the mechanical side to figure out what to do a bout gaging. For now its a joke. Here again as some have said they are more of a political organization than anything else. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I was a member once, for one year. 
It was a real surprise, too. 
I have never, as in ever, paid one bit of money to said enema-ray. 
Local chapter apparently wanted my RR on their convention tour enough that THEY paid me up. 
I got the card in the mail. 
Go figure. 

George- Unauthorized scale? 
Yup. 
Used to be, the "rule" was not more than one scale per gauge. 

The LS came around and they still haven't gotten their heads around that! 

During my last dust-up with them, I found out they fully expect folks to come to them with agendas...and act as "lobbyists" for their particular manufacturer, control system, type of track, etc. 
That, I was told, is "modus operandi". 

I also found out that if what you have to offer (even if the data is asked for) will NOT be accepted if it doesn't fall under their "guidelines". 
They find a "reason" not to accept it. 

The only reasons they have latched onto LS is the hopes of more paying members AND the chance to foist off their ideas of "mandated control" on the unsuspecting LS community. 

There are too many manufacturers of certain equipments, and they need "new blood" to continue and grow. 

Talks with higher-ups in the enema-ray reveals a lot of data you would find amazing. 

If you knew some of the shenanigans pulled by one person to get his way (related to me by specific manufacturers), even if not directly, you would probably react even more strongly than I do. 

Remember: 
It's the face you see representing the enema-ray that you remember.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Well.... I'll pick my own scale and run it even if it isn't authorized. 

Further I reserve the right to run multiple scales and eras on the same track AT THE SAME TIME. 

I hope somebody's blood boils over that one....


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm.......I think I'll take my 1:22.5 "High Rail" coarse standard 10-Wheeler and hook it to a Fn3 "Finescale" train utilizing horribly oversized flanges so they will easily navigate my grossly oversized code 332 track. I will then take my son's 1:24 2-8-0 and put a mixed train together (mixed in scales as well!) utilizing truck mounted couplers and run it down the same track. Oh, and just to be thorough, I'll slap a 1:29 Sierra coach on the end of it and I'll be sure to mix the road names including _both _the AT&SF as well as the C&S, B&O, and (of course) the D&RGW! I will then pop open a tall one and salute the NMRA's standards!


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I have no problem pulling my 1:29 streamliners behind a 1:20 Shay. Works for me


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 14 Oct 2009 07:56 PM 
Well.... I'll pick my own scale and run it even if it isn't authorized. 

Further I reserve the right to run multiple scales and eras on the same track AT THE SAME TIME. 

I hope somebody's blood boils over that one.... 


Interesting. My whole layout is based on that. I started with what amounted to ~1:22/1:24 (Phase I) in 1994, then entered the wonderful world of 1:29 (Phase II) in 2005-06. Now I am extending my track into a long-planned layout that is narrow gauge (1:20.3--Phase III).Although initially I was going to keep the three layouts separate, I changed my mind two years ago, connecting the first two lines together. Now I am doing the same by extending the Phase II track into the Phase III area. As for the eras, well, they have ALWAYS been mixed on my layout.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Politics and mutual participation aside, I think you need to gauge your decision on whether you may get something out of joining the NMRA based on whether your goals in the hobby mirror their approach. The NMRA is very much based on prototypic practice and operation. If that's not your thing--and from the posts here, it's not for many among us--then you're not going to get anything out of joining. You'd no sooner do that than you'd subscribe to _Model Railroader_. Nothing wrong with the magazine, but there's very little that would have any bearing on how you enjoy the hobby. On the other hand, if you've an interest in "scale" model railroading using any specific one scale of the myriad scales that make up large scale, then perhaps you'll find something of value from the organization. 

The reality is that there's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy in play. The NMRA doesn't quite understand the large scale market, so they don't cater to us, which in turn further isolates them leaving us less inclined to join, which does nothing to help their understanding of us, which keeps them from catering to us, etc... I think those among us who are members (or are working with them to foster a better mutual understanding) need to step up and put forth a good face. It's not about converting all of large scale to the NMRA's way of thinking. Quite the opposite, actually. It's about educating the NMRA community to the ways of large scale so that they can begin to understand the myriad facets which we all enjoy. Once they understand that, they can cater specifically to those facets in large scale which fall along similar goals to their own, and leave "the rest of us" quite happily playing with whatever trains we so desire to run. 

Later, 

K


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree completely with Kevin's statements and his approach to this has been very constructive.

To put it in perspective, take the authorized scales comments. The NMRA means authorized in the sense that their membership accepted the standard and voted on it. The word here on this board is interpreted to mean the NMRA telling large scalers what they can or cannot do and everyone's blood boils. We are talking about different worlds.

I am a prototypic modeller who models in HO as well. While I enjoy all aspects of outdoor model railroading including gardening, my prinary interest is prototypic operations. I subscribe to MR and am a member of the NMRA Operations Special Interest Group (NMRA membership is not required to join a SIG). But I have never joined the NMRA as I have not felt to date that I would gain much from the membership. Nonetheless, I still appreciate the work the NMRA has done in many areas including standards setting for many scales/gauges and the establishment of DCC standards. 

As Kevin put it so well, if the NMRA offers something of interest to you, then do not let the discouraging commentary here dissuade you from joining. And for the rest of us who have not joined, a bit more tolerance would be a good stepping stone to building a better relationship. We are all model railroaders.

Regards ... Doug


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All,

I don't think I have had this much fun reading a forum since I joined here! The comments and feedback have been great. It does apear that many of you have been burned by individuals that want to "run" the show. Unfortunately that does seem to happen in any organization that truely becomes "national" (want to talk about snobs etc, all you need to do is look to the classical music realm - don't forget I am also a bass player). Also, being realistic some people like rules for just because they can build them. Either way I will proceed (if they like my railroad) to have it in the best shape to show off large scale outdoor model railroading to any and all that attend. The general masses that come to these conventions normaly do not get hoked into the politics and should not have to be involved in them. If they choose my railroad to go into the 2012 show I will extend the olive branch and join them. Now that being said maybe we should set a new standard







and we can call it the 1.2-3 scale which is basically any scale that starts with a 1.2 to a 1.3 and runs on guage 1!









I look forward to your continued (and sometime hilarious) comments!

Rich


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh one other thing, do you think I should show them by 16" x 20' N Gauge that I have in the basement? LOL 

Rich


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

It was a HO rail road association that got me into LS in the begining. It was the one and only club I had ever belonged to. You had to submit your rolling stock that you wheathered for approval before you could run it on the club layout at a show. I was "Spoken to" for fixing a track connection in the middle of a show in a mall. Never again. 
When is the last time you saw a string of Container cars pulled by F units? I would have been drawn and quarted.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Oh one other thing, do you think I should show them by 16" x 20' N Gauge that I have in the basement? LOL 
That depends. If you're pulling an HOn30 caboose behind an N-scale GP-9, probably not without a paramedic standing by.  

Later, 

K


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## rgolding (Jan 2, 2008)

Our railroad was part of the 2001 NMRA Convention. We were quite proud of that and did join the NMRA from 2000 to 2002, because we were encouraged to join and felt it was the right thing to do. When the Convention was over and I guess our usefulness to making the Convention successful ended, things also cooled between those of us in the Large Scale portion of the hobby and some of the local NMRA community. I still have many good friends from that portion of the hobby, but it is because of a common interest, not because we are members of the same club or organization. 

I wish all the best to those that are members of the NMRA and really wish that it could and would serve the large scale community better. I applaud all that are trying to make the relationships better. Good Luck.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

And, from what I remember Ric, the membership gave you some rights to access literature and plans, such as these K-27 drawings you kindly sent me! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## post oak and otter lake (Dec 27, 2007)

I joined the NMRA at the 2001 National Train Show where I was part of a group with the Z Scale layout. A friend talked me into joining. I also attended the 2002 in Florida the next year with Z scale. In Florida we had gotten to the Convention center early to get ready for the show and wanted some coffee. The only vendor that was open was upstairs , when we got to the top of the escalator and were told we could not be up there because our badges were exhibitor not convention attendee. I didn't renew my membership because of that and during my membership I didn't feel like I received any value for my money. 
When I began LS in 2004 I went to their web site and discovered that they had nothing pertaining to LS. No track clearances, parallel track distances, nothing. I would hate it if they tried to standardize couples like they did in HO [hook-horn] and N [rapido]. 
Those who want to join, fine, do it. For me I can buy a switch for my membership dues and have more fun. 

Roger 
Post Oak & Otter Lake RR 
North Central Texas All Scale Group 
Caddo Mills, TX


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## rgolding (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 15 Oct 2009 08:02 AM 
And, from what I remember Ric, the membership gave you some rights to access literature and plans, such as these K-27 drawings you kindly sent me! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 

That's right, Zubi. And friendships are made by sharing the hobby. All the best.


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## m ledley (Jan 18, 2009)

i was a host garden rr for the 2009 hartford convention..got permission from the garage across the street for the bus to park....out they came & headed for the business's bath room !!! 33 guys !!! when the bus left they left their cigarette butt's in his parking area !!! he had to go out & pick up the butt's himself!!!...one guy drove across my lawn !!!..been hostin open houses for garden rr folks for 13 years & never a problem !!! entered a nmra model contest once & got 2nd--nobody got 1st -a professioal points system !! & lastly they never write or print FUN WITH TRAINS...been wantin' to vent my fustration w/em for a while mike


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, time will tell. If nothing else it prompts me to keep moving (as if I needed it!) 

Rich


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Rich

With any volunteer organization you get out of it what you put into it. Both Deb and I are Life Members of the NMRA and active Large Scale modelers.

Over the years I have had times of great activity and times or lesser activity. I have in the past been very active in standards and large scale development and served at one time on the NMRA Board of directors.

And as with any organization it has its plusses and minuses.

You asked about hosting a layout tour.

A National Convention can be a very fun time. The layout tours, clinics and train show make for a busy week.

At this years National Convention we hosted an operating session for the Ops Sig, hosted a layout tour for three 66 passenger busses, and held a party for friends in the industry and association.

We had rain on and off during the day of the layout tours. The third bus came in a downpour and over half got soaked but still had fun visiting the railroad. One couple was from the UK and had taken this particular tout just to visit our railroad and we had fun sharing it with them. Its not often you can share with such a large number of active model railroaders

I would recommend becomming involved in the National being hosted in your area. The more you put into it the more you will get out of it.

Stan Ames


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

I have in the past been very active in standards and large scale development... 

And we all thank you for your efforts Stanley.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

My thoughts? Like anything else in life, you get out pretty much what you put in. There's pretty much two choices as far as the NMRA goes, join and be active for a positive change, or don't join and ignore them. Griping solves nothing.


I have more large scale than both local hobby shops combined -- they say nobody is interested in it.... most people around here seem to be more into beer, football, quads and 'mudding'. The only local model railroad 'club' here is a few cliquish old geezers doing an HO layout in a church basement.... not my cup of tea, but I'll still go to their open houses and leave a few sheckels in the donation box. There's another HO group an hour west. and an O group an hour east... I'd have to go about 90 minutes to Pittsburgh to find large scale group. Too far to attend regularly, but they'd probably take my dues money. Yes, I could probably START a LS club, but with 3 members (me, myself and I) what would be the point?


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Open up the N layout. However, be prepared that many visitors will have to get back on the bus to go to the next stop and may never see it. Some buses will be delayed and the extra railroad will be a welcome diversion for some. Have some extra local people on hand to help because you can't be in two places at once. Have visitors sign in and take plenty of pictures of the day. After the event make a picture blog showing off your handiwork and the visitors. The day will fly past and be a huge blur after months of effort to prepare. Whatever you do, think in terms of the visitors and make whatever layout they see worth the trip. The convention goers can't fit in all the overlapping prototype and model field trips and have to pick and choose based on supplied descriptions and itineraries. They'll all be swapping stories and lies about the best and the worst experiences from the convention. Make yours one of the good stories .Make 'em all wish they were doing large scale in the garden and N scale indoors. No matter what you show off make sure its something you're proud of and that visitors will enjoy. When its all done take the family and your local helpers out to celebrate.

Good luck and enjoy.
- Web


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Let me give you an example of the pervaisive madness that is the NMRA obsession with standards (as they see them)...

My son has a predominantly Hornby 00 layout with bits of Lima and Bachmann. He would like to run DCC and by research has tracked down MERG (which Daddy used to belong to!) and has persuaded Daddy to start building boards. This is what he would like to use to run his layout :


http://www.dynamisdcc.co.uk/index.php?lang=de&q=

Note the EYE shaped stamp at the left hand side of the page.... He is of course confused why an AMERICAN standard is being used.


As a parent I would be more concerned that this product conforms to EU safety standards and has a CE or DIN mark just a promanantly displayed(!) 


Oh by the way neither 00, EM or P4 standards exist in the NMRA.

Nor does 16mm

Nor does 7/8th 

Nor does Gauge 3

Nor does Spur II

Nor does 3 1/2 inch gauge (I could go on and on...)


If the National Model Railroad Association is so pro-active on the subject of Large Scale locomotives possibly someone somewhere might like to buy them a copy of Henry Greenlys "Model Railways". I have the 1924 edition.

regards

ralph


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

In fairness, Ralph, MOROP has adopted the NMRA standards for DCC, so it really is a global standard rather than an "American" one. No need for confusion. If I read correctly, MOROP deferred to the NMRA because (a) the NMRA had already done the dirty work of designing the standard, and (b) the manufacturers had adopted it already. No need to reinvent the wheel. Can you imagine the quagmire we'd have if the European DCC standard was different than the US standard? (Wait--we're in large scale. We _live_ a similar quagmire every day...) 

As a parent I would be more concerned that this product conforms to EU safety standards and has a CE or DIN mark just a promanantly displayed(!) 
I can't think of the last time I saw any such marks (CE, UL, whoever) displayed on a product's web page. A quick search of the web sites for all the electronic gizmos within eyesight (Canon, Panasonic, Acer, Apple, Sony), none displayed safety organization safety logos on the web pages, though the products themselves do carry them. I'd have to say if one were to base one's purchases on whether the product's web page displayed safety conformance logos, one would be living a very austere life. 

Oh by the way neither 00, EM or P4 standards exist in the NMRA. 
You're surprised by this? OO, EM, and P4 are predominantly European, and covered quite adequately by MOROP. If there were a critical mass (whatever that may be) of manufacturers making US prototypes to those scales for the US market, then I'd expect the NMRA to look into standards. Whether they'd do that by adopting MOROP's existing standards or reinventing the wheel themselves would largely be dependent on who is leading the effort on authoring the standards. For better or worse, that's the way the game is played. 

As for Greenly's early work, it is a good foundation from which one can build, but based on our discussions relative to F standard gauge, I'd suggest that perhaps some of his formulae and profiles have in the past 85 years been shown to be a bit restrictive as to what has actually been proven possible in the various scales and gauges. That's not intended as any criticism of his work, just a reflection of the nature of technological evolution. Had the "standard" that railway equipment never exceed twice width of the gauge never been challenged, we'd not have the quintessentially narrow gauge equipment that we have. Can you imagine the Ffestiniog Railway with mere 4' wide coaches? 

Later, 

K


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

No DCC decoder will get an UL, CE or DIN safety mark. This is because they are not packaged to be safely used or handled. There are exposed connections on some and wire dangling from others.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

George we are getting off topic here but indeed all DCC products sold in Contential Europe must display the CE safety mark and this includes the child safety provisions. This in part explains why the systems from Europe are more curved with no shart edges. I am not up on the differences in regulations between the UK and the contenent but the CE. Power Packs must also not have line voltage in the part that the end user controls the speed.

The CE mark must also be displayed on decoders and part of this has to do with the heat that the decoder can generate under max load.

As I said this is getting way of topic.

Stan Ames


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