# Does Anyone Run LS Indoors?



## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

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A curiosity question about live steam use inside for an inexperienced live steam guy that lives in a cold climate with looong winters. The specific subject of interest is an Accucraft Mason Bogie. Any serious hazards, pollution issues?


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Depends how long you wish to run for.

We run our Accucraft Ruby inside our basement every once in a while - but one fill is about all we can take from the exhaust.

If you have a well ventilated area or a fan, you could probably run for longer.


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run a Mason Bogie indoors. I have a full set of rollers and can do a K36 if needed. Running indoors, my CO detector will begin to chirp after about 45 minutes. The only problem I have found is that the steam oil in the exhaust tends to wind up in the air . Not a good idea to breath it in close quarters . Need to have some way to vent the room out as the oil tends to wind up on flat surfaces as a thin film. 

Having said that , I always run any new engine on rollers at home first to sort out any problems. I also do this to test and set up Radio Control systems on my engines. Better to see whether it is going to work up close and not have to chase a runaway down out of doors. 

Charles M SA# 74


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I run my Aristo 0-4-0 live steam in the basement in the winter. Usually just one time each (a little less than 20 minutes). It doesn't seem to be that messy. A friend wanted me to run it in his house where he has track in his living room, dinning room and kitchen. I refused to do that. Some of his track is on carpet. 
Bob


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for the answers, guys. This is an issue that came to mind after I got my LS Bogie. We have long winters here and I miss being able to run this loco during what is the longest of our seasons. I have even thought about selling this LS engine and getting an electric version instead. Besides, I think I am the only person in this state that runs a live steam engine, so I miss the camaraderie of having others to run with. It gets very lonely.....


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Don, 
Why not run outside? The winter weather would make for some excellent steam plumes. There are ways around making sure your gas pressure is maintained through your warm water bath. Do you not have a track outdoors? Well, hope you get to steaming soon.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have a Mason Bogie but often run other live steamers indoors. I have a portable track which I set up in my basement when I am not taking it to train shows elsewhere and enjoy testing modifications I make to my steamers. That said I only run Butane fired locos reserving the coal and alcohol fired engines for outdoor running. I did test my coal fired Shay indoors when I first assembled it and filled the sunspace attached to the house with smoke. I left a couple of days later for Diamondhead and it still smelled of coal smoke when I returned. 
I recently attended a steamup in Jeff Young's basement in Toronto, Ontario. I'm not sure what his provisions for ventilation are but no one was asphyxiated. 
Depending on what state in which you reside you might be surprised how many other steamers there are. 
Have fun, 
Tom


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

* Just because some do, does not mean it is a good idea to.*


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If you can milk a duck indoors, I see no reason you can't run a live steamer indoors providing you have adequate ventilation for both.


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## PortageFlyer (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, as Tom Bowdler states, we do run live steam inside and quite often in fact, and have done so safely for over 25 years. We run both butane and alcohol fired locomotives- but refrain from firing up the coal fired ones. In fact, some very old alcohol fired locomotives were designed for indoor running only. 

It is perfectly safe. We have a good carbon monoxide detector and do open a basement window to ensure a steady flow of fresh air. It is only after very long period of running (say 5 or 6 hours continuously) the detector may start beeping. We usually stop for a while or open the windows wider. 

Some other common sense rules apply (not fueling a gas fired loco near open flame comes immediately to mind). Also, a fire extinguisher and a wet cloth (for alcohol fires) should be within easy reach.


The last point is more of a comfort one, around the alcohol used. If the wicks are not set up properly for good combustion and poor quality alcohol is used, it make your eyes sting. The worst alcohol is the stuff from ACE Hardware, which is recovered from waste. Even in a very large building such as the atrium at Diamondhead, it is painfully noticeable. 


For indoor running, we used gas line antifreeze (methyl hydrate) with good success.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

* Not talking about ventilation only. One time I was running an alcohol engine on rollers in my garage. Did not realize that I had a rather large leak from chicken feed at bottom of tender. Just about the whole tank of fuel from tender had spread over the back of work bench and into stuff sitting against wall. Because you can hardly see alcohol burn, I did not notice that I had a fire going until I could smell stuff burning. Luckily, I had a huge cup of ice tea sitting next to me. I threw it into the middle of the fire and ran to fill the cup again. Took another cup to put it out. (about a 32 oz. size conveinence store cup) I felt stupid at first, but then kind of glad it happened. Because, it taught me not to run these things indoors. Things can get out of hand real quick. If you want to run indoors thats your choice. Good luck.*





*Not typing in bold on purpose, for some strange reason it's the only way my computer will let me post.*


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## PortageFlyer (Jan 2, 2008)

When running alcohol engines on rollers, we always do so in a large shallow metal pan, one that can hold well more than the contents of the alcohol tank. That way, if something goes amiss, the split fuel can be contained to the pan and more easily dealt with if it should ignite. Again, a towel in a bucket of water is a well proven fire extinguisher for alcohol fired locos.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Over the years we have test run many different engines in the shop. Never had a problem with ventilation, safety or firing engines indoors. As with all sessions it is important to understand the environment that surrounds one when running live steam and plan accordingly. The only exception thus far has been no coal firing indoors (except for our stove) given the wonderful aroma most likely would permeate our laundry in the other portion of the basement.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

I want some ventilation in my workshop and had a vent that was about 20" square. I bought a cheap 20" box fan and attached it over the vent on the inside of the wall and have very effective exhaust fan. Low speed seems to be more than enough ventilation. I turn it on when I run steamers on the bench and it keeps the air nice and the carbon monoxide detector from alarming. 

Steve


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Hello,

Live steam indoor layouts - with scenery by the way - are popular in Switzerland. I know of at least five of them often operated by clubs. Ventilation and fire fighting are taken seriously. Incidents are very rare and are handled in a highly professional manner. These pages show some photos - sorry for the German text - just scroll down to see the pictures:

http://www.g1mra.ch/anlagen_CH/e-l-b_ll.html
http://www.g1mra.ch/anlagen_CH/dg_wiggertal.html 

http://www.g1mra.ch/anlagen_CH/mep.html 


http://www.g1mra.ch/anlagen_CH/happy_steaming.html 



Michael


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Guess none of you know how to milk a duck then?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Whats the point?


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Thank you all for your input on this question. I am a bit of a novice and am experiencing the annual late winter depression when it is still cold outside, everything looks dead, and spring ain't comin quick enough! I suspected that it would not be too much risk operating indoors, judging from the fuel needs - water & butane. Not withstanding common sense safety precautions when playing with flame. Yes, outdoors should give a great plume, but I basically don't like cold. I would move south in a flash, but it is not totally up to me for that decision. No, I don't know how to milk a duck, either.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By PortageFlyer on 05 Feb 2012 07:25 AM 
The last point is more of a comfort one, around the alcohol used. If the wicks are not set up properly for good combustion and poor quality alcohol is used, it make your eyes sting. The worst alcohol is the stuff from ACE Hardware, which is recovered from waste. Even in a very large building such as the atrium at Diamondhead, it is painfully noticeable. 


So that is why my eyes stung at Diamondhead this year (for a small while), I just thought it was the challenger burning so much alcohol that was doing it. I always use the HomeDepot SLX stuff

I got them back later with some dirty coal  

Anyway,
Its ok to run live steam indoors as long as you can get rid of the carbon monoxide that comes from the butane combustion. I use to run the ruby in the kitchen of my apartment, now I just run on rollers in the garage (with the garage door open).


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## K&NWLR (Dec 9, 2011)

Interesting topic, because the K&NWLR (check it out on Youtube) is indoors and live steam. Things seem to be ok - and I leave the doors open. There´s a big difference between using alcohol as a fuel and butane gas, as our Gauge 1 friends will confirm. I would try to work out what the average CO2 discharge of a live steam guy is (me for example), as opposed to a small loco, but my wife tells me I should get out more. My guess however is that we humans produce more CO2 than a loco or two.

And it probably does. After doing the maths, I figure that a human breathes out around 1kg of CO2 a day (a figure that seem to be confirmed by what I´ve found); let´s say that a large car gets 20 km to the UK gallon (conservatively); my back of the envelope calc tells me that this will generate slightly over 1kg of CO2 too for those 20km also (or 400 times round my indoor track). Assuming that you run your trains less than 20km indoors a day and your locomotive is equally as efficent as a family saloon in converting fuel to movement, then you may produce less C02 with your live steam loco than you breathe out yourself.

But don´t get me started on C monoxide.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Another 'beware' from running indoors, depending on the loco design, is the risk of OIL ON THE CEILING! 
I decided to steam up my Accucraft Royal Hudson for the first time on the bench. 
Due to a manufactures design fault, there was a huge discharge of oil out the stack, and I still have the mark on the ceiling to show for it! 
Not a big deal in my workshop, but my brother in the UK did a similar event in our parents kitchen many years ago! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## K&NWLR (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi Michael, I know the happy Mr Happy Steaming. He uses alcohol for his locos, rather than butane - and I admit to a degree of involuntary eye watering in his cellar.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Gee-- David... I think there is a similar stain on the ceiling of the WW&F engine house 24"=2' scale!


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Au contraire Mr Finegan. The Challenger is very gentle on alcohol consumption. Now the fact that it was frequently run in the presence of two other alkie burners doubleheading (whose owners' names will remain unspoken by this humble scribe other than a reference to the Marx brothers) on the adjacent track --with all three burning methanol -- was more likely the cause of the fume build-up. But they had a great time running together and the locos performed admirably all week. 

Seriously, the Challenger is quite fuel efficient. The Allegheny will use up a whole tank of fuel raising pressure before a run, while the same amount (+/-) in the Challenger will build pressure and provide a 45 minute or longer run -- contingent on load pulled. 

As for the coal smoke in retaliation, it was likely noted and you may need to watch your back. Lol 

Ross Schlabach -- fourth member of said gang!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Ross, 
It's like the car commercials that state you can drive for 1000 miles on a tank of gas. 
Well, any car can do that if the tank is large enough. 
So, how large is the fuel tank on the Challenger? 
The Berkshire is 625ml, so is it larger? 
Also, as I, and others have stated before, IF there are bad fumes from an alcohol loco, then something is wrong with the wicks and air mixture. 
I have asked you before to explain this secondary control on the fuel system of the Challenger to understand how that will not possibly starve the wicks. 
Hopefully Han's has found the magic way to make it work. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Has anyone tried adjustable wicks as a kerosene lantern uses? that sure is tried and proven technology. would it work with alcohol? might need another control to keep the ready fuel reservoir from overfilling.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Eric, 
Yes, there is a fellow in the UK who has been doing this for some time. 
He still uses the regular chicken feed, but has sliding wick pots to adjust the height of the wicks. 
Something that I plan to copy IF I ever find time. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

David, we don't have the precise specs on the Challenger but it is easy to compare tank sizes by sight. Despite what you implied, the two tanks I mentioned are comparable in size. As for your claim that the wicks and air mixture are the reasons for odor, well that's poppycock. Just try some of the cheap denatured alcohol like that sold at some Ace Hardware stores and you'll see that there can be contaminants that can raise a stink that goes away when you switch back to quality fuel. We experience this phenomenom at DH each year. 

And I've already told you, I don't have drawings or details on the fuel flow control and I described the differences in the wick tube design. But you don't have to be a scientist or an engineer to see that it works. If you want to see the system in operation for yourself, you just need to get your reservation in -- if it's not too late. I think the only thing important to the buyers of this locomotive is that it does a good job of making steam and runs well. This it does in spades! I'm sure the actual buyers will be pleased. 

Ross Schlabach


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well Ross, sorry if I have upset you. 
I guess that I don't come across the junk that you use in Diamondhead to have experienced the stink. 
So, why not get some better stuff for next year and avoid the problem. 
Good, now I know that the tanks are the same size, so I can agree that it must be efficient to supply double the volume of steam and steam longer. 
Well done Hans. 
As i said before, the Challenger is not a locomotive that interests me, but I will enjoy seeing how the fuel flow control works when I see those that are buying it locally running theirs. 
All the very best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Been running live steam Gauge 1 indoors since 1983. First of all on my friend Doug Pattman's track where we ran everything from Aster Hudsons with 25-30 car trains down to Mamods. On alcohol fired locos properly trimmed wicks are essential for good combustion otherwise your eyes and nasal passages will suffer. With butane it is wise to open a window especially if running two locos at once for more than an hour or so, otherwise more sensitive people seem to start getting headaches. For the last 16 years I have run on my indoor basement track and the curves and station platforms etc restrict us to engines without excessive overhang. We have run both alcohol, butane and a coal fired engines. There is absolutely no need for complicated sliding, adjustable wicks......a sharp pair of scissors is all you need, but I cannot emphasize how important properly trimmed wicks are. It makes you realize how sloppy we are with this aspect of running when outdoors where you don't notice, that awful smell around some alcohol fired engines is un-burned vapour from wicks that are too big/long. 
David M-K 
Ottawa


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

To update my comment, it was only one time that the air got bad from alcohol fumes, They where running the challenger (and the pusher/puller Berkshires) all weekend and most (90%) of the time, there were no eye burning fumes. 
So it has to be someone using the Ace Hardware stuff (which I was not aware of, once I find a fuel all the experts use, I stick to it lol - I don't need to be out and about learning from my own mistakes hehe). 

The fuel tanks they were using were from the Berkshire, because the larger challenger fuel tank wasn't developed yet (what I overheard)


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes you have to worry about the smoke alarm, even while running on rollers...


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