# Not a loco, but still live steam



## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

This is not a locomotive but it is live steam. I have finished building an Elmer's #26 wobbler engine and boiler. I mostly did it to learn and to see if I could make something that would really work. Here is a couple of pictures of the engine:



















It took about 2 months to build the engine, I'm just happy that it works.







Although I'm am having some problems with it. Even with lagging the boiler can not keep the steam production up to a level that the engine needs. If I use a lit match under the boiler along with the burner the boiler will produce enough steam. I'm thinking that it has something to do with the fuel I'm using. The fuel is Medallion lamp oil. It's messy and you can see in the video that it produces a lot of soot. I have some kerosene but I wanted to check first before I tried it. Or is there something else that works better? 

Anyway here is a short video of the engine running. Sorry for the bad video, it was hard to both run the engine and shoot the video as well. 

Wobbler Video

Jason


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Need project! 
Just a word of warning: Allways be present and prepared to extinguish a leaky alcohol tank,i see its soft soldered and might come appart!! How do i know ....aint telling...(had to replace a shop table top /had to clean up my fallen to pieces wilesco roller and resolder them!!) soft soldered Tank!!!!! 

Manfred


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Never heard of aster's tanks falling apart. They are soft soldered are the not? They are also farther from the boiler and feed line if that is the concern here.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Guys,

I have already experienced the total engulfing flame.







The engine was running really good during it, but the cork didn't pop. This is one reason I'm thinking that the fuel I'm using doesn't burn hot enough. I used PM Research silver bearing solder that melts at 430 degrees for everything. It was what Elmer recommended so I hoping I'm good.









Jason


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jason, 
I couldn't get the video to run, so can't comment on that. 
I would suggest that it is NOT good practice to have a fuel tank 'solidly' fixed to the burner. 
This will cause the fuel tank to get hot, the fuel can expand and overflow, and a fire can happen. 
Quite common on the older style of live steam locomotives. 
I would suggest adding a short length of silicone tubing between the two. 
Nothing wrong with a soft soldered tank in normal use. 
Next, what type of wicks are you using in your burner? 
Have you tried using alcohol? 
You need to have the wicks 'just right' for them to work their best. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

*Nice safety valve.

If it works for Champagne then it should work for live steam*!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Great project Jason. Oscillators are fascinating to watch. They make a good power plant for small loco's too. I've seen the cork safety valve before, can't remember where. Might have been an old Popular Mechanics or something. Oscillator motors act as safety valves too. If the pressure gets too high, the cylinder lifts off the port face.

Single cylinder oscillators seem to run at about 15 PSI max. If you try to tighten the spring to add pressure, friction overcomes. They also seem to run at about 400 RPM max.

Very nice.

vr Bob


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

I notice that the original instructions for this boiler call for asbestos or wood lagging on the boiler and string lagging on the steam pipe. 
That might solve your 'not quite enough steam problem.' 

Harvey C. 
SA1838


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a BARGS project finished here recently. The builder said it ran many times better after he insulated the boiler.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone,

I put the video up on vimeo so those that are having problems viewing it can now. Lets see how this works  



wobbler anim1 from Jason Grimes on Vimeo.


As you can see from the video I did put some lagging on the boiler and it did help a lot. The engine would still falter every now and then. Should I try kerosene instead of the lamp oil, would that be better? I'm not sure where to get the right kind of alcohol here in Fairbanks. 

Jason


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I just noticed you have a cork in the fuel tank. That style tank can not be air tight. Air has to be allowed into the tank or a little vacuum can form as the fuel burns down and potentially retard the flow to the wicks.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Bob!!









That was one of my questions, I just forgot to ask it. I have been taking the cork out but not consistently. I will remove it when running the engine from now on. Any thoughts on the kerosene?

Jason


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I would give kerosene a try. Can't see why it would not work. Wick type kerosene heaters were widely used in homes for heat. Still are around here. They burn very clean. If it doesn't work, you are not out anything.

Vacuum forming in a fuel tank is the principle that makes bird feed drip burners work. But on a gravity feed like yours a vacuum might starve the pots.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By David Leech on 01 Jul 2012 12:20 AM 
Jason, 
I couldn't get the video to run, so can't comment on that. 
I would suggest that it is NOT good practice to have a fuel tank 'solidly' fixed to the burner. 
This will cause the fuel tank to get hot, the fuel can expand and overflow, and a fire can happen. 
Quite common on the older style of live steam locomotives. 
I would suggest adding a short length of silicone tubing between the two. 
Nothing wrong with a soft soldered tank in normal use. 
Next, what type of wicks are you using in your burner? 
Have you tried using alcohol? 
You need to have the wicks 'just right' for them to work their best. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada Sorry David, I realized that I haven't answered your questions yet.







I have had the fuel overflow already and the great conflagration shortly thereafter.







Would keeping the fuel tank uncorked help any, as was suggested by Bob? 

The wicks are 1/8" cotton Lamplight lamp wicks. The burner is drilled 1/4" in diameter. Which does bring up another question that I was thinking. Elmer has you pull the wick completely through the burner/tube and into the fuel tank. Not only is this hard to do, I know for a fact I would not be able to do it with a 1/4" wick. I was thinking that could I just cut a short section of wick that is the same length as the burner, or does it have to go all the way into the tank? Maybe I can stuff in two sections because they are smaller then the burners diameter? 

As I explained to Bob, I have no idea where to purchase the right kind, or even which kind, of alcohol fuel here in Fairbanks. The only hobby store in town has closed up shop because of the economy.









Thanks again,

Jason


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason 
SLX denatured alcohol from HomeDepot is a popular fuel. 

Harvey C. 
SA 1838


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If your burner cup walls are as high as the top of the fuel tank then you can probably remove the cork and not have a problem... (as long as the fumes from the tank don't reach a flame and flash back to the tank and have a fire at both ends!)

If the walls of the burner are lower than the level of the fuel in the tank, AND the flow of fuel from the tank to the burner is lower/slower than the rate at which it is burning, then there should not be a problem.

BUT, if you cannot adjust the fuel flow, then the fuel will, like all liquids, "seek its own level" and will overflow the burner and the conflagration will ensue.

What you need is a "sump" below the main fuel tank with walls as high as the burner and either a float valve (like in a toilet tank) that cuts off the flow of fuel from the main tank to the sump when the level of liquid in the sump is still below the top of the walls of the burner.

Another more common regulation of fuel to the sump is what is called a "chicken feeder". So called because it is the method used to dispense water to chickens without the water overflowing the feeding pan. This consists of a main tank that is air-tight except for with three openings.

One is in the top through which the tank is filled, but must be air-tight sealable when the tank is in use.

The other two openings are in the bottom.

One needs a valve to stop the flow of fuel from the bottom of the tank into the sump while the top is open, such as when the tank is being filled.

The other is the control tube. It extends from near the top of inside the main tank and into the sump at the level you want the fuel to be in the sump (below the wall height of the burner).

After the tank is filled and sealed at the top, the valve is opened to allow fuel to flow out of the bottom of the tank and into the sump. As the fuel exits the tank, air takes its place via the control tube. When the level of fuel in the sump reaches the top of the control tube, it covers the end of it and blocks the flow of air into the tank. The weight of the fuel continuing to flow out the valve creates a small vacuum in the tank which eventually overcomes the weight of the fuel and the fuel quits flowing into the sump (an action often called "vapor lock", but not quite the same as what happens in an automobile fuel system).

Fuel from the sump flows to the burner (like you have it now) and is burned. This lowers the level of fuel in the sump which exposes the end of the control tube and air again flows into the fuel tank allowing more fuel to escape to the sump. This way the level in the sump never goes much higher than the bottom end of the control tube and no overflowing occurs.

Obviously, any air leaks in the main fuel tank would allow air in and defeat the system.

Although it is a bit large for the purpose, you could use your present fuel tank as the sump and install a main tank above it with the two tubes between them. Probably cut off the present filler neck and replace it with the two tubes and set the new main tank directly on top. The sump does not need to be air tight (other than to keep fumes from escaping and setting fire to the contents). Or you could insert a small sump tank between the tube to the burner and the present tank, just raise the present fuel tank up above the height of the sump so gravity will make the fuel flow to it from the main tank.

The size of the tubes between the main tank and the sump do not need to be large, as long as the flow of fuel from the main tank to the sump can maintain the fire in the burner. 1/8 inch diameter tubes would probably be fine.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By hcampbell on 03 Jul 2012 03:51 AM 
Jason 
SLX denatured alcohol from HomeDepot is a popular fuel. 

Harvey C. 
SA 1838 
Thanks Harvey! I will check my local Home Depot and see if they have some.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Wow! Thanks Semper,

I don't know if I will mess with this one too much, but I will keep what you have written in mind when I do my first locomotive. I haven't yet decided which would be best alcohol or butane? I guess it depends on what I can fit and what I can't. 

The burner cup walls are a little taller than the fuel tank so that's good. I'm going to yank the wick out and try just using short sections in the burner and see if that works just as well. I wanted to test it out with kerosene, but the weather has not cooperated.









Jason


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03 Jul 2012 05:43 AM 
If your burner cup walls are as high as the top of the fuel tank then you can probably remove the cork and not have a problem... (as long as the fumes from the tank don't reach a flame and flash back to the tank and have a fire at both ends!)

If the walls of the burner are lower than the level of the fuel in the tank, AND the flow of fuel from the tank to the burner is lower/slower than the rate at which it is burning, then there should not be a problem.

BUT, if you cannot adjust the fuel flow, then the fuel will, like all liquids, "seek its own level" and will overflow the burner and the conflagration will ensue.

What you need is a "sump" below the main fuel tank with walls as high as the burner and either a float valve (like in a toilet tank) that cuts off the flow of fuel from the main tank to the sump when the level of liquid in the sump is still below the top of the walls of the burner.

Another more common regulation of fuel to the sump is what is called a "chicken feeder". So called because it is the method used to dispense water to chickens without the water overflowing the feeding pan. This consists of a main tank that is air-tight except for with three openings.

One is in the top through which the tank is filled, but must be air-tight sealable when the tank is in use.

The other two openings are in the bottom.

One needs a valve to stop the flow of fuel from the bottom of the tank into the sump while the top is open, such as when the tank is being filled.

The other is the control tube. It extends from near the top of inside the main tank and into the sump at the level you want the fuel to be in the sump (below the wall height of the burner).

After the tank is filled and sealed at the top, the valve is opened to allow fuel to flow out of the bottom of the tank and into the sump. As the fuel exits the tank, air takes its place via the control tube. When the level of fuel in the sump reaches the top of the control tube, it covers the end of it and blocks the flow of air into the tank. The weight of the fuel continuing to flow out the valve creates a small vacuum in the tank which eventually overcomes the weight of the fuel and the fuel quits flowing into the sump (an action often called "vapor lock", but not quite the same as what happens in an automobile fuel system).

Fuel from the sump flows to the burner (like you have it now) and is burned. This lowers the level of fuel in the sump which exposes the end of the control tube and air again flows into the fuel tank allowing more fuel to escape to the sump. This way the level in the sump never goes much higher than the bottom end of the control tube and no overflowing occurs.

Obviously, any air leaks in the main fuel tank would allow air in and defeat the system.

Although it is a bit large for the purpose, you could use your present fuel tank as the sump and install a main tank above it with the two tubes between them. Probably cut off the present filler neck and replace it with the two tubes and set the new main tank directly on top. The sump does not need to be air tight (other than to keep fumes from escaping and setting fire to the contents). Or you could insert a small sump tank between the tube to the burner and the present tank, just raise the present fuel tank up above the height of the sump so gravity will make the fuel flow to it from the main tank.

The size of the tubes between the main tank and the sump do not need to be large, as long as the flow of fuel from the main tank to the sump can maintain the fire in the burner. 1/8 inch diameter tubes would probably be fine.



ACK, I just reread what I wrote and see a silly mistake. The word "top" highlighted in red above should be "bottom". When the fuel level in the sump reaches the bottom of the control tube it blocks the flow of air entering the main tank.

I drew a picture to help understand the bazillion words...


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Excellent Semper! I understand completely now. *saves picture* Does the sump need an air hole for it to work right? Thanks, 

Jason


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jason, 
There is no need to 'seal' the sump. 
Some of mine are completely open at the top, with just the two tubes from the alcohol tank sticking into them. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

According to Aster the sump shouldn't be sealed.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I modified the drawing to open the top of the sump. You may have to clear your brower's cache to get the system to download the new image (or wait a couple of days/weeks/years for the cache to drop that file) to get the new one.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks guys.  Thanks Semper, I got the new image. On most browsers, if you hold the shift key down while clicking on the reload button, will force the browser to reload the page instead of going to the cache. Thanks again.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Did you try kerosene yet?


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Well yes I did, but the weather did not cooperate.







The wind kept blowing out the fire and I wasn't able to even get up any pressure at all. I'm going to try again this weekend, looks like the weather will be better.

Jason


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