# Permissible Grade for Live Steam Ops



## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm working closely with Ralph Williams of Trains and Trees in Hudson, MA on a layout we're going to install/build in my yard next week, and the always thorny issue of grades came up today. The layout will consist of 230' or so of track that will run around the borders of our backyard (I'll document the build with as many photos as possible). Although we're shooting for zero grade, it might require a less Herculean effort if one portion of the track has something like a 1 percent grade. And although I know my little 0-6-0 hates ANY grade, I'm wondering how much of a problem a 1 percent grade would be for live steam ops as a general matter. Bear in mind that none of my engines are currently radio controlled. Any help is much appreciated. If all goes to plan, we should be up and running a week from tomorrow! Thanks, Jon


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably depends on the engine you plan to run. A Shay can handle a 1% fairly well because of its mechanical advantage. An engine with RC will do much better because you can give it more throttle. Try to eliminate the grades is the best course.


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## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

It all depends on the locomotive design and the load it is being asked to pull. In my case I try to stick to 2% grades as a maximum and my track is known for having almost no level grade. Accucraft Shays have absolutely no problem with my track, and have been known to rescue other trains that have run out of fuel. The Accucraft K27, C16, Edrig and Mogul have all run very well on manual control, and I have a very old Beck Anna that, with a suitable load, trundles up and down my hills on manual control with no fuss. My Accucraft Ruby is a different story and really does require radio control to avoid taking down hill curves at dangerous speeds, but I understand that those with larger cylinders are much more controllable. Visiting Regner locos have also performed well on manual control, including the latest Heidi. Probably the worst performing manual locos I have seen on my line have been the visiting small Asters. Their single cylinder design certainly does not perform at all well under manual control on 2% grades.

The choice of level or graded track is a personal one and often dictated by the situation available, but for me, totally level track would have been far too limiting in the space I have available and lacking in realism or interest. In the real world, level track is not the rule, although few tracks are as steep as 2%. A friend sent me a link to this video clip which, at about 4 minutes, shows very dramatically the grades that can be seen in 1:1 scale.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

In the real world, these Kitson-Meyers could pull a train up almost 8% grade on the Transandine Railway, but this was a record for an adhesion locomotive to the best of my knowledge, Zubi


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Well this Kitson Meyer, now at exibition in the railroad museum of Santiago de Chile, was a rack locomotive. A beautiful locomotive in Metre gauge, if I remember right. 

Most geared locomotives handle grades quite comfortably. But I had a meth fiired Aster Shay, which was a poor runner and which did not like grades at all. 

I think, if you want to run live steam engines at a prototypically speed (slow, if narrow gauge) you need RC. Keep your hands on the throttle to give more steam on grades or narrow curves. I have a Roundhouse saddle tank loco. It is no problem to throw it off the track if speeding around a 5 feet radius curve. 

So to be o the safe side, use the larges possible curves and no grades at all. Specially if you plan to run old pre war Maerklin or Bing meth burners as well. They are difficult to control. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

No one has talked about CURVES ! They are as much of a factor as grades. Keep you minimum radius as large as possible and try to keep the curves as flat as possible. Transitioning from flat to a grade in a curve will cause problems !


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mr Fritz Juergen, it was, but it could climb 8% grade using its front adhesion units alone[1]... Best wishes, Zubi 
[1] Donald Binns, Kitson Meyer Articulated Locomotives, Trackside Publications, 2003 (revised ed.)


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

On the subject of curves, let's also talk about easements. A steadily increasing (or decreasing) radius, rather than a sudden change. 

Let's also talk about the wheels. As a long-time R/C batter controlled sparkie, I really saw a huge difference when I fitted my trucks with ball bearing races (available through Great Big Trains). The cars literally glide, with almost zero rolling resistance. Alternatively, get ball-bearing wheel sets. Anything to reduce rolling resistance. 

Dr. J


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll make this as simple as possible. For gauge one live steam rod locomotives, NO RC = NO GRADES. That is unless you like chasing them down and then manually working the throttle to get them to go back up the grade. Now if you would RC your engines then anything up to say 2% would be ok. I try to limit mine to 1-1 1/2%. The engines just work better. A geared engine like a shay will of course go up a much steeper grade unless it's an Aster, then it will run away downhill and stall up hill. Aster's are geared too fast.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, everyone. I John has pretty much nailed it on the grade issue and I plan on taking Dr. J's suggestion and retrofitting my rolling stock. On the subject of curves, the tightest on the track (as planned) will be 9' radius/18' diameter, while the rest will be 20' diameter or larger. And because we are going to use flex track, we can fashion easements. That said, I'm going to see how challenging an RC installation will be in the F5 - all the photos I've seen show a very, very tight cab. But I already own a Spektrum radio and assorted receivers and servos for my collection model planes and it seems silly not to at least attempt an install!


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 09 Oct 2009 06:06 AM 
In the real world, these Kitson-Meyers could pull a train up almost 8% grade on the Transandine Railway, but this was a record for an adhesion locomotive to the best of my knowledge, Zubi 



Zubi, There is an 11 percent grade at Cass WV. See: http://www.cassrailroad.com/ 
Shays in the real world can handle even steeper grades I seam to recal a 13 percent grade but I can not remember where.
Dan


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Wow, Dan, thanks! I did not know that. But I suppose no rod locomotives ever rode there? If not, I should have said I meant a record for a rod locomotive. Best, Zubi


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## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

For gauge one live steam rod locomotives, NO RC = NO GRADES. 



As I indicated above, there are plenty of live steam rod locomotives that are happy to run manual on 45mm track with 2% grades (including 2% grades on 12 foot diameter curves). Personally I prefer to have radio control so that I can "drive" them, but some of my visitors have opted to run manual (or have reverted to manual in the event of a radio receiver battery failure during a run).

I agree that curves should be as wide as possible and that it is better to bend in transition curves to ease the change from straight. I try to keep to 12 foot minimum diameter and have made changes to avoid anything less than 10 foot. I would prefer much larger curve diameter, but space does not permit this.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

dead level and the widest radius curves possible unless RC


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Start with a steep hill, throw in tight curves, hilly bumps and have no control ! 

Oh, I thought the was the Roller Coaster board, sorry


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## D&RGW 461 (Jun 4, 2009)

Earth to Kent !!!


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Start with a steep hill, throw in tight curves, hilly bumps and have no control ! 

Going to model Wales?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a 1% grade and us R?C for my LS. Also have 10ft diameter curves and I can handle 6 heavy wight Pass cars with no problem. Later RJD


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

I have seen an Accucraft shay handle 8% grades slowly up and back down. It was pretty neat but it seems that most don't like any grade. 
Lots of luck on your project. 

-Brian


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## Helge K. (May 21, 2009)

Hello, 

I am reading your posting with a great deal of interest. I am currently thinking about purchasing an live steam locomotive. There some locomotive out there which have drawn my interest. It is a Accucraft 4-4-0, 2-6-0, the C19 and the Mason Bogie. I am experienced model railroader (electric DCC) , but a newbie regarding live steam. Spending 1000- 2000 $ is not an easy cake for me. I have to consider very carefully what locomotive is suitable for my layout. 
The the minimum radius of my curves are 1300 mm (approx. 4 feet +) and the steepest grade is 4%. My switches are LGB R3 switches. 
It is my intention to equip the loco with rc and it should pull at least 2 Accucraft D&RGW boxcars. 

So what's your recommendation and experience ? Which of the above mentioned loco will probably run on my layout ? 

Best regards 

Helge


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Helge, your layout is quite tough for live steam. By design, Mason-Bogie should be able to handle your curves quite well because the driving bogie is pivoted. Of course I do not know how it behaves on tight curves, maybe Jason could comment? But the M-B is somewhat above your price and it will not available for half a year or so I guess. If you are value conscious, there is a C-19 in the classified and Jonathan/RC-Trains also mentioned that he has one if the one from classified (by Royce) is already gone. These are excellent locomotives but I cannot comment on curve handling. 1.3m may be a bit tight even though this loco has blind drivers it will probably struggle. I simply have no working experience with such tight curves with C-19. Considering the grades you should probably consider a Shay anyway. Best, Zubi


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## Helge K. (May 21, 2009)

Hello Zubi,

The C19 in deed would be my first choice, but before I order and let the such a loco ship to Germany, it should be very clear that it will run on my layout. I read the review in the Garden Railways Magazine and they recommend a six feet radius. 

The Mason Bogie is with 2500 $ little bit more expensive, but a beautiful loco. I am in no hurry buying a loco. So I can wait.


Kind reagrds


Helge


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Well Helge, 

You only live an hour-drive away from the German Accucraft importer. I am sure, Lorenz Schug will demonstrate you, how the locos run on various curves curves and grades. 
Or drive the other direction and have a look at Ralph Reppingens open day. (normally in May) You will see locos from all over the world and can talk to their owners. Or go to "Mannheim Dampf" at the Landesmuseum next weekend. Plenty of Roundhouse, Accucraft and Regner locos will be runnig there. 

I wouild not trust too much in guesses or believings of forum writers. After all, it´s your railway and your money, you are going to spend. 

4 % grade sounds very steep for almost any locomotive. We have a 2,5% loop grade on our modular exibition layout (more or less 16mm scale with 32mm rail) 










We were in doubt, before we built, if our livesteamers and Accu/RC locos would make it with four 4-axles coaches (We don´t have room for more) The longest loco we have, is the Accucraft War Dept. Baldwin. They all did. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jon 

My layout has two long grades of about 0.6 % [1 in 176] that are around 88 feet long. The total elevation change is about 6 inches. One is on a constant 24 foot radius curve. Non R/C locos run fine even with moderately long trains [30 cars for a Berk, 18 brass Daylight cars with a GS-4 (EITHER A brand), 10-12 cars with a C-16]. My old track design had grades of 1.7% and long trains would pick up lots of speed and appear to be out of control. I think that any grade of 1% or less is manageable if your curves are fairly generous. Since I have no ground level track, manual operation is possible for the entire track length.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Helge, 

I would stick with the Mogul for the reason that is will handle the tighter curves the best.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi,
you guys kill me







.
You should build your layouts like this (running counter clockwise)


















On my layout I have up to 10%(!) grade and it is a lot of fun to move a flatcar loaded with a heavy donkey up the hill! Apart from my geared engines David's Accucraft Garrat has no problems with these gradients. 













Are there other non-main-stream live steamers out there?

Regards


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Posted By HMeinhold on 13 Oct 2009 08:27 PM 

Are there other non-main-stream live steamers out there?




Narrow Gauge rules!!! well maybe not on this forum. 
I am a Shay guy working on a 2' Shay in 7/8ths scale so yes I agree more grade is required to test that type of engine.
Cheers Dan


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Wow Henner! That looks good. if you have an opportunity, please take a video of the Garratt on your layout, I would really like to see this!! Best wishes, Zubi PS I agree, Narrow Gauge Rules!!! most definitely.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I love you narrow minded guys, look at your combined lobby effort and the accucraft roster, and you 7/8 guys are all scratch built, more power to you. I"m broad minded personally, and I can appreciate everything else


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Ignoring for a moment the lively debate over narrow versus standard gauge, here are some shots taken after the first day of work constructing the Marblehead-Marion Railroad. As you'll see, the line is ground level and essentially circumnavigates most of our backyard - we're aiming for essentially no grade, but we'll see what happens. Ralph and Eric Williams have been extraordinary. Apologies for the photo quality - I used my blackberry to take the pictures. 
[*] First 2 photos show the north side of our yard, where the railroad will transit a garden that fronts our street (Arthur Avenue). The garden is retained by a 4' stone wall.[/list]


















[*]The railway will then precede south, adjacent to a walkway and past a very large oak tree and hanging swing (see following picture, as well). The local regulatory authority (me) will soon issue regulations on the permissible use of the swing during railroad ops (none). [/list]








[*]Once the railway has passed beyond the oak, it will turn relatively gently to the right and skirt our porch before reversing direction.[/list]








[*]Here's the portion of the line I was most concerned about from a spousal perspective. As Ralph put it, "can your wife deal with a big zipper in the middle of your lawn?" Surprisingly, my wife likes it![/list]









[*]The next 2 photos show how the line will return north and run up the east side of the yard. [/list]


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I’m very envious of you being able to keep it in the ground; I was not able to do that. Keep us up to date on your progress.


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