# Whay happened to third rail?



## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

Many, many years ago, O gauge modelers used to use outside third rail for operation. It worked well and eliminated electrical problems associated with two rail operation. It seems that third rail disappeared off the face of the earth. Probably the only interest in third rail would be in the north east corridor and the Long Island RR. It didn't seem practical in scales smaller than O, but it would appear to be very easy to implement in G. I tried it in HO a long time ago, but it just wasn't practical. I enjoy realistic operation, like third rail and overhead catenary, but you don't see anyone using it. The old O gauge method used a coil spring that pressed down on an outside rail. G gauge with it's large size, would be easy to use third rail.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Lionell went with 3 rails, putting HOT on the center and ground on the outside rails in order to avoid reverse loop problems. In a reverse loop, the 3 rail system just connected ground to ground and everything worked as normal. The power pickup from the center rail is sometimes a sliding contact and sometimes a wheel. 

One reason a lot of us use batteries is that with no power on the track, reverse loops, wyes and crossovers don't matter.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as prototype 3rd rail the San Francisco bay area's BART system uses 1000 VDC 3rd rail. I do HO overhead but haven't tried it in G scale.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a bit confused. 

Are you talking about using 3 rail track, like Lionel model trains? Or are you talking about modeling a 3rd rail 600vDC electric commuter railroad? 

3 rail O gauge use outside has been done using nickel silver rails.

Modeling an electric commuter system in G scale would be along the lines of modeling a huge metropolitan area. Besides scratch building your models of the BMT or the IRT equipment, you would have to buy all the extra rail and make the support systems for the railroad and the rail. Not sure it would be practical to try and power the trains from the third rail, but anything is possible. I look at it like you'd be buying 50% more rail than you actually need, so your infrastructure costs are 50% more than necessary. 

There are folks who power their trains using overhead catenary, so it is not that unrealistic to want to power them with third rail and sliding shoes. Are you thinking of making a model of Grand Central Terminal? That'd be awesome and huge!! Maybe model the NYC from GCT to Croton Harmon and have your NYC electrics change power with NYC Hudsons.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

3-rail O-gauge is alive and well.. 
if anything, its growing, and will probably continue to grow.. 
(as the Baby boomers get older and start retiring, they are re-discovering the trains of their childhood..which is very often O-gauge 3-rail) 

some people are doing 2-rail "scale" O-scale, but probably 90% of the O-scale market is 3-rail "tinplate" style trains.. 
MTH, Lionel, Atlas, and others are coming out with new products all the time.. 
its a very active segment of the hobby. 

(personally I cant stand the look of 3-rail track and the "tinplate" look..I will never be into it, but thats just me.) 

http://www.lionel.com/ 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/catalogs 

http://www.atlaso.com/ 

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No confusion Mark, Mr. Ron was talking about prototype 3rd rail operation, a 3rd rail OUTSIDE of the normal 2. 

Catenary also was mentioned. Overhead wire. 

Tom bought up the electrical similarities of toy train "3 rail" (a third rail in center) to prototype type 3rd rail and catenary. (an important point to consider in modelling)

Yes, if you ran a 3rd rail (outside of the 2 normal ones) or catenary, you could put "hot" on the catenary or the 3rd rail and have no reverse loop wiring for model train operation. 

So the original poster was not talking about toy train 3 rail stuff but modeling prototype practice. Don't know why Scotty brought that up.

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

His initial comments spoke mostly of O gauge, and so, I was confused, since most of the O gauge out there is already 3 rail. I wasn't sure so I asked the question. Sheesh.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Jul 2010 09:43 AM 
So the original poster was not talking about toy train 3 rail stuff but modeling prototype practice. Don't know why Scotty brought that up. 

Regards, Greg 

Scotty brought it up because of the first sentence in the first post in this thread: 

Many, many years ago, O gauge modelers used to use outside third rail for operation. It worked well and eliminated electrical problems associated with two rail operation. It seems that third rail disappeared off the face of the earth.

That sentence seems to imply that the original poster was wondering about three rail that O gauge modelers used "many years ago", 
and also he seemed to believe that 3-rail O gauge has "disappeared off the face of the earth".. 

So I foolishly thought it might be relevant to point out that this is not the case, in case he might wish to be enlightened..









next time I will be sure to check with his highness before making such assumptions, to make my sure im thinking correctly..


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,

I'll send my comments to you for review first before we submit!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The 3rd rail mentioned wasn't at tie level. The outside rails were elevated and the shoes hung off the frame. 
Problems were massive structures around switches, either a rail on the other side through the diverging area or coasting through... The rail was usually hooded so people couldn't come in contact as easy. I think this method lost favour in the 1:1 world due to the expense of associated hardware. 
Catenaries have the expense of overhead wires, but the ease of continuous power through switches.... they are being used a lot in light rail aplications... they are safer as well. 

I remember pics in the 50's of O scale w/outside 3rd rails, but that track was the correct guage, not Lionels... Back when scratch building was the only way.... for most. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

ps.... the name Frank Ellison comes to mind... no easy trick... but I think if you googled that you might see examples of true outside 3rd rail modeling.... 
John


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Without wanting to get into any controversy:  

Actually I think you both are right as far as it goes. While tinplate had center third rail including American Flyer in the thirties the scale guys, such as the then famous New York Society of Model Engineer's layout, used outside third rail extensively for both electric and steam configuration models. The third rail was made to look like that used by heavy electrics between Grand Central as already mentioned and Mott Haven Yard where trains switched from steam to electric power. This allowed for model motors to be run on AC which was common then while making for more realistic looking track otherwise. I believe most of the rather large electric "small" motors of the time used in models were AC-DC.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 21 Jul 2010 10:58 AM 
ps.... the name Frank Ellison comes to mind... no easy trick... but I think if you googled that you might see examples of true outside 3rd rail modeling.... 
John 
Frank Ellison's Delta Lines was a major influence on me growing up and led me into appreciating actual train ops. A true pioneer in that aspect as much as John Allen was for weathering and realistic scenery.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The Chicago L "elevated" trains run by the CTA are 3rd rail powered..by an outside rail.


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## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't have the actual figures at hand, but I believe the 3rd rail was 1-1/2 rail heights above the running rails and around 15" away from the outsice rail. As another note about "inside" 3rd rail, British railways use an inside 3rd rail and an outside 3rd rail for the return, so they have a total of 4 rails. This was done to eliminate electrical problems with track signals.


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## dmk092 (Jan 5, 2008)

The london tube has a 4 rail system, with an outside and inside "third rail" energized to positive and negative voltages respectively. I believe this was done to diminish ground currents from damaging the welds that connect the actual metal "tubes."


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## fredswain (Jul 26, 2010)

I just stumbled on this thread while searching around online so I thought I'd chime in. Outside 3rd rail was a very common modeling technique for a long time. It has been around nearly as long as electric trains have. 3 rail was far easier to wire electrically than 2 rail which is why it was used for so long and continues to be used today although much of it anymore is tradition. Lionel obviously used it and kept using it even after 2 rail became available and better understood. Had it not been for their continued use long after the other major players were gone, we may no longer have any 3 rail O scale. Instead other companies have developed products to be compatible with theirs. To many 3 rail O scale remains in the world of toy trains but lately there has been a side to the hobby that is pursuing 3 rail scale modelling where the trains are detailed accurately to the prototype but just happen to run on 3 rail track. 

Outside 3rd rail always fascinated me. I am even currently building a small outside 3rd rail switching layout. I personally feel that the 3rd rail being smaller and on the outside is far less offensive to the eye than having it in the center. I've had people wonder why I am pursuing it as 2 rail is so prevalent and far less effort. The simple reason is because it's what I want. Nothing more complicated than that. I bought the remnants of an old outside third rail layout that was built in the early 30's and I have a couple of old brass outside rail engines from the 40's. Many of the modelers of the day wanted a more realistic look to their railroads. Tinplate was the predominant track and not very real looking. Not even with ties added underneath. Back then far more people took the time to hand lay their own track and it was the people most serious is scale modeling that pursued outside rail. There were many outside rail products available back then. By the start of WWII, half of all model railroads were pure 2 rail. It was finally starting to be understood better and an early Atlas track book that I have from the 40's shows the ignorance to 2 rail wiring back then. 

As was pointed out Frank Ellison's Delta Lines was a very famous outside 3rd rail layout. He used is even after 2 rail started coming into play and in his own book wrote that for larger layouts that wiring a 3 rail layout was far easier for most people to understand saying it was as simple as a doorbell. I am actually the moderator of the Friends of the Delta Lines Yahoo group so if anyone has any questions about his layout or would like to learn more, drop on by. Another famous outside 3rd rail modeler was John Armstrong with his Canadaigua Southern. This layout lasted until his death in 2004. He started his layout after Frank Ellison did his and long after 2 rail began taking hold. He is also one of the most influential model railroaders of all time yet he put up with that outside rail. There was rumor that he always wanted to convert it to DCC but never got around to it. 

Today there are only a few outside 3rd rail layouts left. The Brooklyn Model Railroad club still runs one and every holiday season at the Duke Energy display in Cincinnati, there is the world's largest portable O scale layout that gets put on display. It too is still outside 3rd rail and they even run modern equipment on it. That layout was first started in 1938. They have never changed the track type to 2 rail. 

Many companies that embraced outside 3rd rail started to see the future in 2 rail and stopped offering 3 rail pieces. One such company was Lobaugh. They began in the early 30's and had all sorts of outside rail parts for the scratch builder. At some point immediately after WWII they stopped carrying those pieces. Walthers still offered otuside 3rd rail pickup shoes for a while but stopped making them when demand died. I actually have a couple dozen of them. 3 rail survived with only Lionel and Marx for a while and then later only Lionel. 3 rail has seen a resurgence lately with MTH and Atlas growing and now other companies jumping into the mix to offer 3 rail pieces. It will still be around for a while regardless of whether a better system comes out. Sometimes you just can't stop tradition. 

Although my home layout is for my old outside rail pieces, my pet project is actually 3 rail scale realism and I have a small company that offers stud rail for the 3 rail modeler who wants track that looks like 2 rail. Marklin has offered stud rail in HO for years but their studs protrude through the ties. Mine are between them in the ballast. The look is not perfect 2 rail but as good as can be expected from a 3 rail system. 3 rail is alive and well. 

Fred


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mr Ron on 20 Jul 2010 06:52 PM 
 I enjoy realistic operation, like third rail and overhead catenary, but you don't see anyone using it. The old O gauge method used a coil spring that pressed down on an outside rail. G gauge with it's large size, would be easy to use third rail.



There are probably less than a dozen of us that use overhead outdoors. You can get some pointers on my website (www.orery.com) or join the largescaleTrolley group on Yahoo.


Can't think of anyone who uses outside third rail. Would be pretty neat if you had the room to do a section of el trackage.


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