# Concern about trend in new Aristo locomotives.



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Without repeating all the pictures and text in another thread:

I'm concerned that recent trends in Aristo design are in the "wrong direction"

However well intentioned, the location of the Aristo socket seems to ignore ease of access or other components people may want.

Specifically:

1. Aristo RDC-3 has had the socket moved from the underside (5 minute install) to the inside of the car, which requires removing 16-20 screws and yanking a lot of stuff apart.
2. Aristo RDC-3 now has the socket and significant wiring visible through windows.
3. Aristo RDC-3 has very little room for "good" placement of capacitor board required for track power (very visible through windows)

The RDC-1 utilized the 2 large "boxes" on the underside, one had the Aristo socket, the other had a power connector and room for a sound card. My suggestion for the RDC-3 is that if the socket has to be moved, put it in the baggage compartment, and make it easy to get in there, and get the visible wires out of the passenger compartment.

1. Aristo Consolidation has a much smaller tender than previous Aristo 1:29 steam locos (Mallet, Mikado, Pacific), so space inside is at more of a premium.
2. The socket is now in the tender, which is more convenient than the boiler (although most boilers removed easily).
3. The socket is on a board significantly larger than the socket, which takes more space than is necessary.
4. To add a speaker of the same diameter but 1.5 inches tall (a reasonable size), the socket must be relocated
5. The socket board seems to be centered in the tender, which impacts room for batteries, sound card, etc.

My suggestion is that the socket board be made as small as possible, possibly putting the polyfuses on the underside. Then position the board over the rear tender weights (or front ones). This would leave unobstructed access for larger speakers, and would increase the "contiguous space" for batteries or other electronics.

I'm concerned because Aristo has mentioned how much extra money and time went into the redesign, but it seems that nothing more than the stock unit with a Revo or QSI was considered. The street price is expected to be $550, so conversion to battery power, addition of a sound system, upgrading of the speaker, adding a remote control system all seemed to not have been considered very well.

That's all I have to say on the subject.


Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about it "not" being considered! I just think that their consideration was not for "ease of usage!"


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, you should be grateful they're moving in a direction that makes their products less desirable--think of all the money you'll save by not wanting them! LGB/Maerklin, on the other hand, are moving in a direction that is leading me down a path of financial ruin because their latest RhB stuff keeps getting better all the time! 

Keith


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I wonder who their "consultant" is......


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I want the loco, and will buy it, no matter. 

These are just objective, measureable observations and suggestions to make things better. 

These things seem so obvious that I wanted to air them publicly, in case Aristo is listening. Making a good product even better should increase sales and everyone will benefit. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

"These things seem so obvious that I wanted to air them publicly, in case Aristo is listening." 

Oh, they listen. 
But it goes in one ear and out the other. 
I re-iterate: Who is their consultant?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Won Ton new.







I know one path I will not follow and that is LGB. Good for the rich and famous and not my scale. Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it would be good if you guys sat down in Lewis's office and visited with him. 
At shows is no time to talk about indepth stuff. 
I wonder what you would want to talk about if you ran MTH engines etc. 
Its great that your concerned, but it would be better after you bought the item.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

"The more pipes the add to the plumbing, the easier it is to stuff up the drains" Chief Engineer Scotty in ST3

Simple solution, just rip it all out and wire the power pickups directly to the motors. Plenty of room now to add an interior to the RDC, and lots of room in the tender for any sound systems and speakers. 

**** it works for me


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

At shows is no time to talk about indepth stuff 

Wouldn't that be the BEST time to talk about in-depth stuff? If I was a manufacturer I would want to be getting feedback from my customers and listening to them at the grass roots level. Any manufacturer who doesn't do this does so at his or her own peril. 

Keith


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith 
Your right, I'm thinking more of stuff that will go on,and on and on and on.......


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith 
Your right, I'm thinking more of stuff that will go on,and on and on and on....... 

But Marty, don't forget MLS= Mighty Large Soap! All soap operas go on and on and on. That's the beauty of it--if we go on holidays or miss a few weeks or even months, it doesn't take much to get back up to date. I like to think of it as the Coronation Street of train forums. 

Keith


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep Marty you just keep thinking that way and yep we know you have one on one sessions with Lewis You are the good old boy. Remind me some time Marty when we tried to talk to Lewis at the Phoenix show two years ago. Ask Greg or Ted when you see them Sat.







Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I knew I should not say anything, let you (gentrally speaking) go on for 16 more pages. 
5 years ago when i got chowed out by OLD Ro after asking a simple Question. I did not go on forums and find any little thing to keep ragging on his company. But thats just me. 
You ( speaking generally) guys go ahead and do what you do best to promote the hobby.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

SPEAKING AS A MODERATOR. 

Stick with the 'LIST OF CONCERNS" Stop the other childish stuff. 


JJ


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 03 Nov 2010 12:50 PM 
At shows is no time to talk about indepth stuff

Wouldn't that be the BEST time to talk about in-depth stuff? If I was a manufacturer I would want to be getting feedback from my customers and listening to them at the grass roots level. Any manufacturer who doesn't do this does so at his or her own peril. 

Keith 

And the safest. Too many people around to break up a fistfight.
Do you know how many years ago I called him up and we talked about G1MRA standards....and he kept saying after that "there are no standards"?

The question has always been, how much more does it cost to do it wrong than it does to do it right?
As far as stuff from "The Genius", after some of my friends who do 3-rail's experience with MTH, I won't have any of it.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I think Greg and Marty both have valid points here. I really wouldn't want to pay what these things cause and have to look at some gaudy wiring through the windows, or spend a half hour unscrewing a bunch of screws, (half of which I would loose) to access the components. As a battery power guy, I would like to see someone design space for the battery, but I don't believe anyone has. So that is just one of the things you put up with if you want to power that way. I also don't believe the electrical is intended for it either (I spent nearly an hour hacking wires on my shay to install Airwire) Now, can you design for every possible situation, no. And as an engineer by trade, I know it would drive you crazy to try and do so. 

Marty is right, during a show is not the best time to discuss these things. First, the manufacturer is PRETTY BUSY and may (probably) not have the time to fully listen and consider you ideas, especially if they're as involved in what Greg was mentioning. After a show, or at their place of business (or on the phone) would be much better. Quite a bit of the time, the guy you're talking to needs something to look at while you're discussing these changes, whether it is drawings or taking apart the actual unit, etc. Second, I don't know of ANY manufacturer who would want to sit there and listen to you tell them what is wrong with their product while there are so many potential customers around. 

Now, any manufacturer who refuses to listen to the customer is just a damn fool, but we should remember that just because we have and idea or opinion does not mean it is absolute, and shouldn't get upset if our suggestions do not get implemented. Again, drawing from my experience as an engineer, there are some people who have some pretty good ideas, and then there are some far fetched ones. We must all remember the old saying: 

"Opinions are like A-holes, Everybody has one"


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Even though this does not necessarily fit this topic, I wanted to ask a question from ya'll, expecially Marty since he runs a large layout. The USA engines have springs on each axle which allow the wheel to stay in contact with the rail even when the track is not perfectly cross leveled (like a prototype). The Aristo-Craft Dash-9 has a rigid truck frame and if the track is not perfectly level, the center axle will hit a high spot picking up the front axle causing it to derail. An 1/8" is it requires for the front axle to leave the rails. Am I the only one having this problem? This especially happens in or out of a curve. The problem would be easily solved if the center axle or all axles (the better) had springs which allowed some flexibility. The only solution at this point has been to test run the Dash-9 around the layout and when it derails the front axle, adjust the track which generally means picking the track up just a bit. I do not have a six axle USA loco so I do not know what kind of trucks are under them. 
Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Why derail this thread? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. Nothing at all. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Answer the question. Guys jump topics all the time. This one is no exception. 

I have even done it 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Derailments and name calling... 

On to the next thread.... 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Seems to me Ron's question and observation is right on target for this thread. He sees a problem with the design of Aristo power blocks. My personal answer to this problem is very simple, and that is reverse the trucks so that the "floppy axle" is facing each end of the engine. This solves 99% of my derailment problems with engines. I have said for some time on both this forum and on the Aristo forum, that Aristo has an excellent design with the floppy axles, it is just that when they manufacture them they install them backwards! (of course RJ says you and I will never have the problem if we just get our trackwork right!!!)

Ed


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I do not have near the amount of porblems that some people have with my Engines, Aristo or USA. I have 3 SD-45s 1 Aristo F A&B unit. 2 SD40-2 4 NW-2 and 2 calfs. Didn't they desige these trucks for tighter curves? Not everybody can have 20 ft curves like Me, Ron and Marty. Only mod I have made is to remove all the track power gear.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Like or hate it, the tender of the steam locomotives is where the control boards are going to be on the new aristo steam engines. The C-16 already has it, and now the Pacific, Mallet and Consolidation will too. I'm concerned that the point of your thread is to discuss design details of which NONE of us has any ability to influence from here on MLS. You have the ability to modify things after you buy them to suit your needs. The implied message in your original post is that the trend is bad for the hobby. That is something worth discussing. 

The truth of the matter is that putting all the control and sound stuff in one spot is going to help the new guy. Old guys like us would have been able to make it work the old way. My mallet and mikado have been modified with speakers in the boiler, but it sure wasn't a lot of fun doing that. Plus, the sound is not nearly as good as it was when I had speakers in the tenders. In my mikado and my mallet, I did have to loosen the board there to install the Phoenix speaker, which was my choice and is not a criticism of the aristo speaker or design. That was before I put the REVO's in the boiler, by the way. And the only reason I put the speakers in the boiler was because I didn't want to run wires to the tender for that. 

I like the trend for the steam engines. It is a good idea to have everything in one spot, be it the locomotive boiler or the tender. *IF *the sound does not sound as good as I want, I will find a way to put in a larger speaker. BUT, that does NOT make it a poor design. I like the board in the tender. It works for me. I am glad I don't have to do a ton of extra wiring when I get my new locomotives. So, from design perspectives, putting all the control and sound in tenders is a great idea. I'm glad they did that. I might have to move the board a bit *if I* decide to put in a bigger speaker in the 2-8-0 and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. 

In the case of the RDC-3, it is unfortunate that the electronics can be seen from the perspective of someone standing on a platform looking up in to the car. On my railroad, No one has ever said anything about it. Mostly they comment on how good the car looks and runs. It is a nit picky comment that doesn't hold water. The baggage compartment might have been a better spot for the board except that the radiator and exhaust part is open to the atmosphere. Meaning, if the car got caught in the rain, the electronics would get wet. Where the board is mounted there is less of a chance that it would get wet. ALso, since you are now concerned with the battery folk, the baggage compartment is perfect for batteries. And for the price point, I am not complaining at all.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I think Mark Oles is right on track. There isnt much we can do. They are designing for the general public. If you want it your way......Modify it. I am just happy they are still making Trains. 

JJ


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Okie, doky!!!!! If no one ever said anything negative about products, there would never be any changes for the better now would there! And up there above, someone said don't talk to a guy at the shows, wait and talk to the person face to face!! Well some of us never get to shows, and to get people to sit down with you even on the phone is exhausting to say the least, let alone going off to a far far away place to see them is pretty restrictive to say the least!! It's called being accessible to your buying customers or constituents!!. I agree with J.J. that i haven't had hardly any problems with pretty much anything I've ever purchased! My inventory now includes a Botchmann, USA diesels, and alot of Aristocraft, and a few HLW. Just lately I have delved into tweeking things a little more. Even though in the hobby since I was 5, I guess I learn, or try to learn something new everyday. It's easy to follow these threads, and determine (without name mentioning) those that have a vested interest of some kind on NOT wanting to step on certain toes, and then there are the others who legitimately are trying to improve the hobby and do legitimate criticisms of things they either discover, and or find out on products, and are not shy about making their findings known!! 

On a side note no one likes criticism, but the best way to curb it is to go to the person face to face, and ask him whatz up? If they are evasive and or side steppers or belong to the "good Ole boyz club" , then you don't want to do business with em!! When I was a police officer, worked all nights! Lots of criticism, and rumors, but when brought in and did a face to face they either didn't want to pursue or it dropped. I encouraged the towns people to sign a release of liability form, and ride with me! One person did, the new mayor, and did his eyes open up, but that was the only one! After they found out we were the type to follow up on rumors, we had very little after that! Also any legitimate complaint was handled by asking them for a written statement, and you know where that went, that usually curbed the whole matter. People like to complain but when they actually have to back up or document what their complaint is they run off and funny you never pretty much hear from em again!! 

There are two kinds of people in the world legitimate, and non legitimate, and also honorable and non-honorable!! Regal


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

And up there above, someone said don't talk to a guy at the shows, wait and talk to the person face to face!! Well some of us never get to shows, and to get people to sit down with you even on the phone is exhausting to say the least, let alone going off to a far far away place to see them is pretty restrictive to say the least!! It's called being accessible to your buying customers or constituents!!.

I agree with a lot of your points. I feel like the best way to communicate is face to face. One thing that is missing from the above is email. Sending an email to the manufacturer with suggestions for improvements is probably the best route if someone legitimatetly wants to get their suggestions in front of a manufacturer. Include pictures of the modifications made to clearly spell out the idea. The problem is that the sender may not like what the manufacturer does with that suggestion. And what happens when the guy with the money says 'Thanks, but we're going in this direction.'? Now the sender's idea has been rejected. What do they do? How do they respond? Take it to a public forum? Badmouth the manufacturer for other stuff? Say "Oh well" and move on? 

So that no one feels I am talking about them, I am referring to a specific suggestion I made to Aristo: I suggested that they drop their long tender and replace it with the USRA tender for future runs of the Pacific and Mikado. The response has been a resounding NO. I think that would make the pacific and mikado more marketable but it is their decision to make it the way they want. I chose not to take their descision personally. Hey, it is their money and their job to make stuff that I will buy.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You can please some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time..... 

Greg, we know there are some things that could be done differently, heck there's a lot I wish I had done differently! Yet at the time of my choices, they seemed good at the time. The size of the board is no concern to me, I'm a gutter, as in; one who guts (the electronics), big board or little of no concern. 
In my short time here (MLS) I've gathered that you have a rocky relationship with Mr Polk, seeing your name probably starts his eyes a rolling! Perhaps it's time for a peace offering. I bet you could design a smaller board to fit your concerns. If you gave it to him, you might get to see it in production. 

It's also possible that the Sissy speaker was used to facilitate batteries.... 

Back when there was a thread about Scale weight, the winning formula was a power to the third... How loud should scale sound be? What's the cube root of 100 decibels? Could it be you want a too loud sound? On a personal level I want mostly background sounds, except for bells, whistles. Enclosing the stock speaker fullfilled my requirements. 

What boiler is as easy to remove as a tender shell? I seem to break stuff everytime I go in! I'd love to see a switch in the tender to reroute pick up leads from the loco to the tender before going to the motor, but that's an added expense to suit my modifications and one I'd rather have the choice of paying for or not...my time is cheaper. 

Why is designing a product to be easy with their own controller (Revo) at the expense of others wrong? I only put Dodge parts on my Dodge truck. Makes sense to me that only the Revo should be plug and play and since the Revo is better than DCC, why are you so resistent to change? I ask facetiously. Other makes are doable, just not as easy as. Marketing 101. Might get a purchaser off the fence and try the Revo with the new loco... 

So far your concerns seem to be Greg-centric... I'm only refering to the Steamer. 

Best we can do is make suggestions, whether or not they are taken is beyond our control, taking it farther will only get you an ulcer. 

John


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

About email, I have emailed different company's at different times, Still waiting to hear back, Phone calling is almost as bad have been put on hold forever, no answers, left messages, no call backs. So I guess ya gotta do whatever ya gotta do to get a problem resolved, and or taken care of. I'm not shy so, I don't shy away from difficult situations, unless there is NO sense in pursuing any farther, problem not getting solved, and the point just not doing anything in a positive way to resolution. Regal


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The only down side I see is in the new RDC 3 not that is a total screw up when they had it right the first time. Plan and simple to install components especially a plug and play board and not even have to open up the loco. Now we remove a bunch of screws to get to the board and then it hangs down along with all the wiring. What a shame. At least in the new tenders nothing will be visible. 


BTW the new Aristo Pacific should be at the show this weekend so maybe Greg can get some shots of it. 

Later RJD


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Ed, thanks for the kind remark, not sure for the hostility of Gregs comment. What are you calling a floppy axle on an Aristo-Craft loco?. The two end axles on each truck pivot side to side but the center axle is stationary, no flexibility. That is the problem. Someone told me that the center axle has a pin on each side to keep it from pivoting. Not sure if that is true, but the lack of flexibility causes the lead axle to be picked up if the center axle hits a high spot as little as 1/8". 
Ron


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ron, I sent you a PM, check your private mail notifications. We can discuss this further off-line if you would like to.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, you stated:

" I'm concerned that the point of your thread is to discuss design details of which NONE of us has any ability to influence from here on MLS." That is actually a sort of self defeating sentence. So, no matter what comments we make here on MLS it will never have any consequence? I surely do not agree at all. MLS is probably the premier site for manufacturers to get input on their products. Where else are they going to get it? How many people call up the manufacturer or drive to their office. How many people are ALLOWED to say anything the least bit critical on a manufacturer's site?


Please go back to the first post, and look at my suggestions: (the 2 suggestions I made)


*The RDC-1 utilized the 2 large "boxes" on the underside, one had the Aristo socket, the other had a power connector and room for a sound card. My suggestion for the RDC-3 is that if the socket has to be moved, put it in the baggage compartment, and make it easy to get in there, and get the visible wires out of the passenger compartment.*

*My suggestion is that the socket board be made as small as possible, possibly putting the polyfuses on the underside. Then position the board over the rear tender weights (or front ones). This would leave unobstructed access for larger speakers, and would increase the "contiguous space" for batteries or other electronics.*

NEITHER of them suggest not putting the socket in the tender which is what you concentrated on in your reply. Neither of them is Greg-centric, I addressed track and battery power.

These suggestions ARE very workable.

Even though I went to great pains to be clear and organized, it still seems to be misinterpreted, or possibly people just are not reading beyond the first sentence. 


These are things I think could have been done better. These are things that can be done in upcoming production. These are things that benefit others actually much more than myself. I can handle whatever comes, relocate and rewire what ever is needed. I intend to remanufacture my RDC-3 to be wired like a RDC-1.

Criticism is the way things are evaluated. Not allowing any criticism means things would never improve.

I'm not going to take credit for the following, but here are things that have recently changed at Aristo, based on input from forums, and competition and web sites:

A new frog for the wide radius switch... it had been poor for years.. now they are cheaply available and in the new production
A new frog insert for the #6 switch, again too deep flangeways for years, and now the inserts are cheaply available, and appear to be supplied with new ones.
Correctly oriented underbodies for Aristo rolling stock, I think it was 14 years and finally fixed (I credit this one to Ted Doskaris)
Improved software for consisting locomotives with the Revolution.. the original software made you reprogram the loco and have to actually press the programming button... (I do take credit for this one)
Improved consisting features on the Revo
Stainless steel wheels going into production to replace plated steel wheels with plating problems.

New replacement motors for the GP-40 

These changes have come about because people criticized the products... made the problems and solutions public.


Much of this was on MLS and other forums.

Regards, Greg 



p.s. John, I pulled the boiler off my Mikado this evening while talking to Kevin L. on the phone so I could give him the wire locations on the main board. removed the cab, 4 screws, removed the boiler, 4 screws... about 5 minutes WHILE on the phone. Pretty darn easy.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Constructive Criticism is fine. A lot of manufactures embrace it. It is not what you say, it is the way you say it. I have talked to a lot of you people face to face and you are a fountain of information. And we can have great conversations. But when it comes to the written word you suck at it. We have tried many times to explain this to you but it goes over you head. I am not directing this at one person because there are many. Some of you could use a course in writing skills. Most of the fire fights on here stem mostly from the way things are written and the words chosen.

It will be interesting to see what anwers I get on the above subject 


JJ


PS I AM NOT SPEAKING AS A MODERATOR. I AM SPEAKING AS MY SELF AND A FRIEND


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By John J on 05 Nov 2010 05:01 AM 
Constructive Criticism is fine. A lot of manufactures embrace it. It is not what you say, it is the way you say it. I have talked to a lot of you people face to face and you are a fountain of information. And we can have great conversations. But when it comes to the written word you suck at it. We have tried many times to explain this to you but it goes over you head. I am not directing this at one person because there are many. Some of you could use a course in writing skills. Most of the fire fights on here stem mostly from the way things are written and the words chosen.

It will be interesting to see what anwers I get on the above subject 


JJ


PS I AM NOT SPEAKING AS A MODERATOR. I AM SPEAKING AS MY SELF AND A FRIEND 


You know everytime you talk like this, i fall further and further a sleep

You act like you know everything and you and the people you TALK to

Are the only rite way to go about this Hobby and things. and it seems that your way is the only way.

Please save it for your RA RA MEETINGS

Your pretching you and your freinds opionions, not everyone thinks or acts like you or your buddys.

Ive been keeping quiet thru the past few posts and i have red some really stupid things in my opionion

But now its time to start posting my opionions again...............

Quote... We have tried many times to explain this to you but it goes over you head. I am not directing this at one person because there are many. Some of you could use a course in writing skills...

Who is WE and what Give YOU THE RITE TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO TALK AND ACT

Did you or your buddys ever think that thats the way he wanted to say it

or thats the way he wanted to act

And finally just speeking for myself

I could give a Rats A-S What you or your buds talk about at your get togethers

Some of you guys are like old ladies

If its not done your way its done wrong...

All i can tell you is wake up.........

Hammering a certain manufacture is the only way to get them to fix past issues that they have let gone on to long because they didnt care

And now your starting to see all the fruits of our labor because things have changed in a big way

Because of people not being afraid to call them out were others wont because they feel a freindship with the man PLEASE............

You are seeing much better product and better Quality control because were not letting them get away with it anymore period

This stuff cost way too much, to not get what was advertised...... PERIOD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

John, I could not agree more with what you have said. In fact I was just getting ready to write a similar post when I read yours! It is definitely not an issue of what is said, but rather "how it is said". It has often been said on here that you cannot say anything negative about Aristo products on the Aristo forum. In fact, there are many criticisms and complaints brought up on that forum, but in general they are presented in a conciliatory tone rather than a confrontational tone.

Many posters on this forum have talked about the fact that there are disagreements on many forums involving many hobbies. In fact there are disagreements all through life. This is fine, and this is normal. But when we become confrontational, then people become defensive, and things go down hill.

Anyway, well put, JJ.

Ed


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05 Nov 2010 06:58 AM 
John, I could not agree more with what you have said. In fact I was just getting ready to write a similar post when I read yours! It is definitely not an issue of what is said, but rather "how it is said". It has often been said on here that you cannot say anything negative about Aristo products on the Aristo forum. In fact, there are many criticisms and complaints brought up on that forum, but in general they are presented in a conciliatory tone rather than a confrontational tone.

Many posters on this forum have talked about the fact that there are disagreements on many forums involving many hobbies. In fact there are disagreements all through life. This is fine, and this is normal. But when we become confrontational, then people become defensive, and things go down hill.

Anyway, well put, JJ.

Ed


Confrontational, is a word some people like to use when they get proved wrong time and time again,To try to justfy what they are saying even thou its wrong.

This word is used to try to make others fell bad for speeking the truth and conform to the way the user wishs them to........

PLEASE


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong in the post I made above. It's clear, it's factual, there's no personal attacks. 

I did respond to a couple of comments that were somewhat personal, like "greg-centric". I responded with facts, quotes and explanation. 

I DO see a lot of things wrong with posts by people who call others names and make personal attacks. 

I call upon the people of this forum and the moderators to stop the name calling and personal attacks. 

It's WRONG to put writing style above the VIOLATION of the forum rules. 

Greg


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Go outside and play with your trains folks.. Take a break...


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