# Some Thoughts on Newcomers to the Hobby



## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Given our normal late spring here in the Great White North, we finally got our season underway with the first Ottawa Valley Garden Railroad Society ops session of the season. We now expect, weather permitting (we did have a touch of frost last night), to hold weekly saturday morning ops sessions until Canadian Thanksgiving (the second monday of October). We had a nice turnout of 13 regular operators plus several visitors. Several other regular operators are expected at future ops sessions.

The regular operating crew includes three teenagers as well as a few good ole boys like yours truely. When I look around the group out last saturday and ask myself, who is primarily a large scale modeller, the answer is surprisingly just 3. Only Fred Mills, the owner of the IPP&W, and myself (I am personally split between HO and large scale) have any track down. What is interesting is that 12 other folks are interested enough to come out to operate and I think each of them has acquired at least one large scale locomotive and many have several. 

In another thread Bill Sharon indicated that visitors to his railroad are somewhat taken aback at the cost of a full railroad. There is no denying that a garden railroad uses a lot of high priced real estate and the cost of laying track is beyond the reach of many people. In our case, if the IPP&W did not exist, almost everyone who participated in the ops session saturday would not be involved in large scale model railroading at all. 

Perhaps there is more scope for clubs to draw new hobbyists into large scale railroading than the traditional show and tell displays at train shows.

The model that the OVGRS works to is an informal organization (no elected officials, no dues, no constitution) dedicated to enjoying model railroading in large scale and that enjoyment is focussed mainly on the formal ops sessions run weekly. Since newcomers need make no investment other than their time, each year sees a few new members which more than offsets the departures. 

This model will not work for everyone of course and I am not for a moment suggesting that. I am only suggesting that with the very high cost of land (for building railroads) and the very high cost of track and equipment, clubs may be able to play a much bigger role in bringing new folks into the fold. In our case, the new entrants typically come from the smaller scales, bring a vast expertise in modelling with them and inevitably buy locos and cars after they begin to enjoy a regular participation with us.

Regards ... Doug


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The model that the OVGRS works to is an informal organization 


Doug, 

I like that model. I live in a condo - there _*definitely*_ isn't room for any track other than a 12' test shelf so I can see if the couplers meet. 

We have several folk around DC who own "a lot of high priced real estate" (and around DC it can be very pricey) and who are willing to allow us to tramp all over it running trains. I try to go and help out with maintenance when I can. 

We're seeing new folk all the time, but most are those who came up to us at a train show and got an invite from 'the man' (the owner.) Clem O'Jevitch's "Warrior Run" layout is a good catalyst that Clem erects an many shows. He gets to sell goodies, we get to run trains! Photos on Jack's thread: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/13/postid/102483/view/topic/Default.aspx


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug
I like you "club" format, it is pure hobby for the enjoyment. The gathering of hobbyists to share their passion and interact trumps any formalized club organization of rules regulations and power play. 


In my experience most of the formal "clubs" are restricted to members only- "exclusivity" seems to be top of their agenda. Though they might have "public days" no one can operate without membership. Also, formal clubs do have membership cost and some have work requirements. Such obligations can be restrictive pending one's real world work requirements.


In the spirit of Pete's comment: one may not be able to afford more than a steam engine nor have the space but the shared experience along with volunteering to make an event happen is what "team steam" is all about!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Doug, I belong to a "club", although they don't like that term, but there are "meets" at different homes where there are layouts. Many people in the "club" do not have layouts and a number have no rolling stock, but they love trains. 

All are welcome and everyone has fun. They don't have to own trains or a layout to enjoy them. We do not have strictly organized running, people bring or borrow trains and we take turns running on the main lines. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

The live steam crowd (represented here by Messers Bednarik and Thornton) have got this idea down. And those live steam meets bring many new steamers into the hobby. I think the introduction of lower cost Accucraft locos of American prototypes combined with the availability of live steam tracks has worked wonders in that regard.

The more usual clubs like the one Greg mentioned, most often do not have a great many newcomers to the hobby attending their meets (it is often by membership only) though I am sure that some are more open. The program seems more geared to the social aspect and some informal running. Attracting newcomers to large scale from non modellers is likely much harder than attracting small scalers to large scale or attracting new live steamers from sparky runners.

Regards ... Doug


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I challenge the notion that large scale is expensive. It CAN be, if you are impulsive, in a hurry, hyper-critical, meglomaniacal, or just plain have more money than brains..... 

Instead 
1. *Start small*- there is NOT a damned thing wrong with a critter, 3 cars and track powered r-1 curves 
2. *Buy used*- Evil-bay, train shows, networking it doesn't have to be brand new right out of the box to have fun with 
3. *Resist buying* stuff that you don't need- especially stuff that doesn't 'fit', just because it caught your eye 
4. *Settle *for what you can manage, not what you'd 'want' to have- see #1, you don't 'need' a K, a Mallet, a Shay, 100 cars and a half acre layout with professional landscaping. If all you have room for is a 5 foot circle, then make it the best 5 foot circle you can 
5. *Build *rather than buy- and you'll actually have MORE pride in what you have. 
6. *Be patient*- obvious that if you shop around you'll eventually find good deals, but many people want everything NOW 
7. *Save* for what you need- Cut back by a couple cups of coffee, candy bars, or ciggies a day... plus empty all the change out of your pockets at night and put it in your train fund jar... you might be amazed how fast it adds up!


-OR- 

You can pretend you're the gubmint and just throw barrels of money around


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Mik on 05/26/2009 1:31 PM
I challenge the notion that large scale is expensive. It CAN be, if you are impulsive, in a hurry, hyper-critical, meglomaniacal, or just plain have more money than brains..... 

Instead 
1. *Start small*- there is NOT a damned thing wrong with a critter, 3 cars and track powered r-1 curves 
2. *Buy used*- Evil-bay, train shows, networking it doesn't have to be brand new right out of the box to have fun with 
3. *Resist buying* stuff that you don't need- especially stuff that doesn't 'fit', just because it caught your eye 
4. *Settle *for what you can manage, not what you'd 'want' to have- see #1, you don't 'need' a K, a Mallet, a Shay, 100 cars and a half acre layout with professional landscaping. If all you have room for is a 5 foot circle, then make it the best 5 foot circle you can 
5. *Build *rather than buy- and you'll actually have MORE pride in what you have. 
6. *Be patient*- obvious that if you shop around you'll eventually find good deals, but many people want everything NOW 
7. *Save* for what you need- Cut back by a couple cups of coffee, candy bars, or ciggies a day... plus empty all the change out of your pockets at night and put it in your train fund jar... you might be amazed how fast it adds up!


-OR- 

You can pretend you're the gubmint and just throw barrels of money around





What I see here is SBRS-BBS concepts.









I have no argument here. Building a railroad is indeed a process. Mine started inside 9 years ago with a simple LGB starter set and the optional siding kit. Over time however I slowly built on my track and options such as a sound tender for my LGB loco. 

This winter / spring was most expensive as it was at Christmas 2008 that I decided to expand outdoors and build my fleet. To this end I played "catchup" with the demands of what I wanted to see outside on my new layout. My CFO is very ticked at me... 

Everyone runs their own tune. Spend as much or as little as one sees fit. 

GG


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

G trains ARE expensive there is no "it's all relative" argument. Compared to HO, N, O, S, Z scales, G is the most expensive. O scale would be the second most expensive. HOWEVER, that being said, you DEFINITELY get the most bang for the buck in G, bar none. Locomotives, rolling stock, everything is just BIGGER and are made to run inside and out. Yes you can spend more in any of the main model railroading scales but when comparing apples to apples, G is more expensive, it's just the way it is. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Just control your train budget and enjoy G trains! Yippee!!!!


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to agree with Mik: LS model railroading can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be. 

I would also point out that Kik, Vic, and others here have demonstrated it is possible to build interesting G scale layouts in small spaces, indoors and out.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure, it can be cheap. you can build your own rolling stock from a Altoids box with some Pop bottle caps for wheels and roll it all around on some twigs for rails and make "Choo-choo" and "Wooo-wooo" sounds with your own voice. All it takes is some time and the ability to see what you want to see, regardless of what is actually in front of you.

BUT...

If you want an engine that LOOKS LIKE a REAL American Railroad Locomotive (not something out of "The Little Train That Could" book) and have it pull a consist that is of the proper SCALE, and that scale matching the other cars in the consist, the locomotive, the buildings and other trackside structures (lights, signals, etc.), all with proper looking and scaled decorations (grab irons, couplers, signage, etc.) and populate the area with human and other animal figures of the same scale as the rest of the equipment and you expect all of this to last through summer heat, winter cold, wet outdoor operations and possible children's handling... 

you may be talking a bit more than just a few metal coins to be spent. 

And if you don't like saying: "Toot-Toot" every once in a while and have gotten hoarse saying "Choo-choo" all day, so thus want the engine to make the appropriate sounds on its own, then you should add a bit more to the cost for a sound system of some sort.

Then if you want to run more than one train at the same time on just one powered track you will need to add individual remote control to the mix (which equates to more $$$'s).

Now, if you want Live Steam, with the same criteria of LOOKING LIKE and WORKING LIKE an American Railroad Steam Locomotive at the PROPER SCALE, then add in a bunch more of your earnings.

It really depends on what you want AND what you are willing to put up with when you cannot afford what you want and lack the skills to make what you want from Altoids boxes and Pop bottle caps.

Add to this the cost of sending equipment back to the dealer/manufacturer to have it repaired before you even have it on the tracks and the postage can exceed some folks discretionary budgets.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

CT, I thought the point was to encourage newbies. Reread the part about being hypercritical, and 'want vs need'. And just because it isn't "LIKE a REAL American Railroad Locomotive (not something out of "The Little Train That Could" book) and have it pull a consist that is of the proper SCALE, and that scale matching the other cars in the consist, the locomotive, the buildings and other trackside structures (lights, signals, etc.), all with proper looking and scaled decorations (grab irons, couplers, signage, etc.) and populate the area with human and other animal figures of the same scale" does NOT make it "wrong" , never has. Wanna guess how many layouts in ALL scales, even HO are just the good old unscenicked 'Plywood Central", but STILL manage to give their owners pleasure?????



Stupid, idealistic me. I thought that the whole point of forums was to be helpful to each other, and share ideas, not to act like supercilious prig if something doesn't meet YOUR personal ideals. But then, I suppose if there's no new blood, then the price of stuff WILL come down.... as they close-out them clearing valuable retail space to replace them with something that sells..... like HO. 

As for the unwarranted cracks about Altoids boxes, pop bottle caps, and twigs. It is a time honoured tradition to make what you have do when times are tough, and adaptive re-use IS in vogue again, ya know.... However, just for you, may I suggest some Mentos and Diet Coke -- shaken, not stirred!, and I'll leave the stick to your imagination (if you HAVE one







), and you can "whoo-whoo" and "choo-choo" on that all you like. (See, I can be mean spirited too.... but did it accomplish anything?







)


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

topic is heading south and this is not necessary. 


Two different opinions and really both are right. The issue at hand is that this hobby can be simple or complex... cost effective or expensive. 

Simply put, a hobby that is in the eyes of the beholder and their needs and wants. 

Techno saavy or simple brain dead... detailed or simple. 

Can you see the flexibility here? 

gg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

{moderator hat on} 

Keep it civil, gents. 

{moderator hat off} 

Getting back to the notion of informal "clubs," I think they're probably the best avenue there is for promoting new blood in the hobby. I think back to the clubs I belonged to in my formative years, and the most beneficial one to me was the round-robin group that had no real structure, and met monthly at various members' homes. The garden railway club was great, but it was definitely more of a social club than a hands-on affair. That can really be said of all the GRSs I've belonged to, though the DGRS does have the club display at the Colorado RR Museum which, when I show up there to run is far less formal. Still, that's "members only" (for insurance reasons), and we can only really recruit people over the fence. It's hard to involve them in that environment. Our live steam group out here used to be fairly active in terms of meeting at members' homes, but we haven't had a steam-up in years. I hosted one two summers ago and got a whopping two people to show up. 

One thing that's a sure turn-off for newcomers--business meetings. If there's any way possible to avoid them, you owe it to the newcomers to do so. They don't care about your club politics, they want to learn about trains. 

Later, 

K


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, gg, I happen to think that we both can not be right.

Sure, there are those that have excellent talent and can whittle a fine representative example of just about anything and they can maybe do it on a shoestring budget (or less)... I am always amazed at their abilities... I think we all are. But for every one of "those" there are dozens of others that are actually discouraged by their examples.

Obviously, Mik didn't see the "log rail" road "boxcar" the fellow made from the Altoids box and the metal Pop bottle caps. I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I do remember that several people liked it. I did find it amazing that someone could re-purpose those non-related objects into such a thing, but I also did not find it something that I, personally, either wanted nor could have done for myself even if I did want it. But I will let Mik's assumption that I was being mean spirited slide. (Oh, and just to be clear on this, the fellow that made it teased that he could not fit a sound card, battery and speaker in it so he had to make the sounds himself.)

I was trying to be a bit more realistic for any newbie reading this. If they are also reading any of the other posts in the various forums in the last few weeks/months, nothing I said should be really new to them, so my words are no more discouraging than any of the other posts.

I, personally, find it very discouraging to have someone tell me that something is either easy or cheap when in the long run I know it to be neither. 

I find the "Starter sets" to particularly deceitful and as such discouraging... a cheap engine that runs on a power supply that no other aftermarket engine runs on (2 or 4 "C" cells vs. 18- to 24-v battery or track power) and won't run for more than a few hours before the gears wear out, cheap cars that look stupid with wheels that squeak and wear out in a few days, plastic track that has too tight of curves to run most of the aftermarket equipment and you won't be able to run that nice new track powered engine on it, either. You spend 100 or 200 dollars on the "Starter Set" and throw it all away when you decide to "add on".. uh... read that... "replace everything" because you decide you like the hobby and want more.

So then you buy brand "A" engine and the paint chips off, or brand "B" and the screws fall out, or brand "x" and the motor burns up, or the control systems are too different to work with the other stuff you found cheap on e-bay. The cars you want to tow with the engine are all different sizes and the couplers are all different heights... hey spend more money and replace the couplers and trucks and wheels and handrails and and and and and.... Well... certainly don't want to discourage anybody here so I better not mention that... let 'em discover it by themselves. Let them keep brands A, B, and X in business so the elite with the skills can continue to get their kit bashing fodder cheap.


Mik had a list of points earlier that I'd like to address. I totally agree with some of them and disagree with others.

1. *Start small*- there is NOT a damned thing wrong with a critter, 3 cars and track powered r-1 curves 

Correct as long as what you "want" is a critter and 3 cars with track. But if you "WANT" a Live Steam Big Boy with 100 coal cars then the "critter" and the "R-1 curves" are a total waste of scant monetary resources, (the cars may or may not be useless).


2. *Buy used*- Evil-bay, train shows, networking it doesn't have to be brand new right out of the box to have fun with 

Correct, but I have to say that if "e-bay" is "evil" then I would have to stay away. (I never understand why people like to alter the name to indicate that it is so bad and then recommend using it.) Otherwise, the suggestion is good. Just make sure that what you buy fits with your long range plans. e.g.: don't buy plastic track just because it is cheap!


3. *Resist buying* stuff that you don't need- especially stuff that doesn't 'fit', just because it caught your eye 

Right on! Impulse buying is a bad idea in any realm. But then, I wouldn't have 47 dollies staring at me right now if I resisted that silly impulse.


4. *Settle *for what you can manage, not what you'd 'want' to have- see #1, you don't 'need' a K, a Mallet, a Shay, 100 cars and a half acre layout with professional landscaping. If all you have room for is a 5 foot circle, then make it the best 5 foot circle you can 

Yes, settle for what you can manage, but don't settle for less than what you know you can settle for. If all you can settle for is that Mallet with 100 cars on the huge layout, then that critter on the 5-ft circle will be quite discouraging!


5. *Build *rather than buy- and you'll actually have MORE pride in what you have. 

If you have the tools, whether it be the Swiss Army knife with scissors and nail-file or a Bridgeport CNC Mill and Clausing Lathe (or some stuff somewhere in-between) AND have the skill and talent then making your own can be more satisfying than the running of the finished product. Those of US, (like "ME") that have no skill or talent are stuck with buying no matter what the tools are.


6. *Be patient*- obvious that if you shop around you'll eventually find good deals, but many people want everything NOW

I find myself becoming quite impatient with people telling me to be patient. I ain't getting any younger and if I wait much longer I ain't gonna have what I want. I am going to be doing something NOW and if it ain't playing with trains in the garden then it will be something else because NOW is all I got.


7. *Save* for what you need- Cut back by a couple cups of coffee, candy bars, or ciggies a day... plus empty all the change out of your pockets at night and put it in your train fund jar... you might be amazed how fast it adds up!


ABSOLUTELY! Besides, coffee will stunt your growth (they always told me that when I was a kid!), candy bars will make you fat (well... they will not make me fat! I am already fat.) and "ciggies" are designed to kill you so if you are smoking them... uh...bye! But, yes, saving is the best way to go.

-OR-

You can pretend you're the gubmint and just throw barrels of money around

Humpft! I tried that and somebody sued me when one of the barrels landed on their foot... they got to keep the contents AND the barrel!


As for the original poster's idea. I like it. It would be nice to have a place for those without the land resources or the finances to put in track, to run an engine and a few cars. More power and blessing to those that are able to supply the land and track and allow it to be used by others. It would require some coordination to get the power methods all sorted so that a live steamer doesn't short out the track power (or that 100 amp supply weld all 24 wheels to the rail!) and the DC/DCC/MTS/QSI/ABC/XYZ/ALPHABETSOUP systems don't interfere with each other or preclude one particular system from ever being used.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

CT... Thank you for the clarification. And sorry so touchy. But the 'need vs want' and 'good enough' still holds. 

I NEED a place to live. I WANT a beach house on St Johns, I HAVE a rented townhouse with enough room for most of my junk that's close to where my kids reside. 

I NEED transportation. I WANT a new Lexus and a '69 Superbee to play with on nice days. I HAVE a 25 year old van with 350K+ miles that starts every time and runs fine (but looks like a piece of crap) 

I NEED money to keep me in some sort of comfort. I WANT a private income, or a high paying job. I HAVE a $500/month disability check, and am limited BY LAW to 20 hrs/week 100hrs/month at minimum wage. If I work more, then I lose the crappy medical coverage that supplies me with the meds that allow me to work AT ALL. (nice catch 22 there, no? Ain't NOBODY beating down the door to hire fat middle aged guys with health problems in the current economy, not at a decent wage) 

Much as I might WANT a big garden layout, there is NO way I could afford one, or be able to maintain a very big one with my trashed knees and other problems. 

As for the building, it isn't as hard as it sounds. Just break it into simple steps. I don't have any special talent or tools, and my hands shake. But look at any of my build logs, the stuff still comes out acceptable, to me and, it seems, many others. 

Maybe it was growing up on a farm with NO extra money. Like Gunny Tom Highway (Clint Eastwood) told the recon misfits in the movie Heartbreak Ridge you 'improvise, adapt, and overcome', not complain and claim you can't. I live within my means, adjust my 'wants' with the occasional reality check. And try to have fun and enjoy life with what I have, rather than worry about what I can't afford. 

Take life's blessings where you find them. Better to light one lousy candle than sit and curse the dark. Better a cute woman who loves you than a supermodel who would break your heart. Better the right side of the grass poor and sore than be a dead rich guy or in jail. Better a small layout than none.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Again, I have to find myself agreeing with Mik. 

The space for my layout became available when I spent a few hundred extra bucks (literally!) on my garage, turning what would have been a cramped attic storeroom into enough space for a layout. the layout itself started with a Bachmann Holidaze set I picked up for a couple hundred bucks (and there are still well detailed Bachmann sets out there in that price range), a old Lionel set off EBAY for all of fifty bucks, and another couple hundred bucks worth of track, some from mail order, some from EBAY. About $500 all told back then, paid for out of a minor windfall - the sort almost everybody gets once in a while. 

As to Miks points... 

1. Start small- there is NOT a damned thing wrong with a critter, 3 cars and track powered r-1 curves 


Pretty much my case. I started small with what I could afford. 


2. Buy used- Evil-bay, train shows, networking it doesn't have to be brand new right out of the box to have fun with 


Without EBAY, I'd still be at the 'small' end of the scale. Yes, you take a chance going that route, but considering that most of the sellars want to stay in biz (the whole feedback thing and related items) the vast majority tend to be honest. Sometimes clueless (remembering the 'G scale figures I got that turned out to be 'O scale') but honest enough. 

3. Resist buying stuff that you don't need- especially stuff that doesn't 'fit', just because it caught your eye


Absolutely. This is one of the guiding principles of my life. It is how, among other things, I was able to build a house and pay it off on an income level that most here would regard as a joke (Mik and I are in more or less the same income bracket, from what he's said). 


4. Settle for what you can manage, not what you'd 'want' to have- see #1, you don't 'need' a K, a Mallet, a Shay, 100 cars and a half acre layout with professional landscaping. If all you have room for is a 5 foot circle, then make it the best 5 foot circle you can 


Also agreed. I was really taken by some of the 'ride-on' stuff I've seen (most recently the thread about the guy in Russia with his private railroad) and I have the space for it...but while I'd like to do something like that, I'm not going too. I'd also really like for my train room to be four foot wider and longer than what it is (that would have saved me several track plan headaches) but I'll work with what I've got because I can't get that space without rebuilding the house. 

5. Build rather than buy- and you'll actually have MORE pride in what you have. 


This one I'm working on. My first scratchbuilt building was a complete disaster - I use it for sticking odds and ends in. My last effort involved adding too and modifying a building made by somebody else (don't know if it was a commercial kit or something somebody just threw together) and it is coming along pretty good - by my standards anyhow. I do seem to be making a bit of progress in figure painting and modifying, though my efforts are nowhere near as good as those I see posted on this site. I seem to be more of a 'modifier' than a 'builder'...but maybe that will change. 


6. Be patient- obvious that if you shop around you'll eventually find good deals, but many people want everything NOW


Another guiding principle of my life. I check, double check, wait and go back whenever I can. I have missed a few deals doing this...but I've also missed out on a few lemons. 


7. Save for what you need- Cut back by a couple cups of coffee, candy bars, or ciggies a day... plus empty all the change out of your pockets at night and put it in your train fund jar... you might be amazed how fast it adds up!


My train money is whats 'left over'. I used to have two jobs: one that paid the big bills (usually for months in advance) and a second, barely even part time, that bought me gas, groceries, books, the odd movie...and train stuff. At the moment, my situation is a bit different: to all intents and purposes I have one job, but that job does, as a sideline, bring in wee bit of spending money (most of which goes straight to groceries or into the gas tank). I did use a couple bucks of that (literally) to buy a pack of 35? cheap plastic 1/30? scale toy soldiers a week or two ago which I've been mucking about with. Before that I bought one of the cheapo modeling paint kits. There are quite a few figures and building kits and items of rolling stock I'd like to get...but won't until the 'whats left' money piles up high enough (and even then I might say 'no'.


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## Guest (May 27, 2009)

semper vaporo, 

i planned to write a lengthy answer to your first post. 

but instead i decided to torture you. 
look at my boxes. and don't miss the bottlecaps! 
(btw, the twigs are hammer-straightened R1 curves) 





































these boxes are all over ten years old. - and they still give me fun! 

what Mik wrote, hits at the same point, as what i wrote in another thread: if it is not half a mile long, and four digits $$$... 

but your answer to Mik decepts and offends me. 

korm 

(btw, what distance do you need, that a steam-modell looks like a real american loco to your eyes?)


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Semper, 

I know that you are impatient.... Please be patient pending more replies to your "Harumph" .... 

gg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

When I started the thread, the idea was to think about newcomers to the largescale world ... not to debate whether one can build a micro layout in large scale and have some fun inexpensively.

Think about the possible newcomers - there are those who are not in model railroading at all and then there are those who model in another scale. We have had very good success in getting small scale modellers to join in the large scale world. They do not change scales and they can afford the entry fee - free until they inevitably buy a loco or two and even then it is relatively low. The live steam folks have been equally successful by providing venues and support for sparky runners to enter the live steam world - that was how Tom Bowdler got me into live steam. Speaking as someone who also models in HO, I do not think I would be inclined to switch scales discarding my well detailed HO world just to run critters in a small loop. The small scale modellers have a lot of their own possibilities to work with and to get their participation, something substantial must be offered in return.

The folks who are currently not model railroaders at all are far more difficult to entice into the hobby. I have not many ideas of my own on this but from the OVGRS experience years ago in running a demo layout at train shows, the typical train show effort does not attract a whole lot of newcomers. None in our case to be frank about it.

When I am casually asked by someone how much does model railroading cost I do not try to make it sound like a couple of dimes will do the trick. The cost of locos and rolling stock are not hard to rationalize in either HO or large scale with large scale comparing favourably in price if rather poorly in variety and detail. Similarly the cost of battery/RC or DCC seems reasonable in either scale. The real killer comes the moment that real estate requirements for either scale or track in large scale are discussed with large scale being at a very distinct disadvantage. Yes someone who is dedicated and who desires a large scale model - any large scale model - can find a way. But the people I speak with are not looking to flat out do something. If they are not enticed they will not participate. 

Wjat I was looking for are ideas on how to get them in the door.

Regards ... Doug


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Later this month I'm gong to cart my junk (well, what isn't nailed down) out to the front yard and make a temporary layout in the grass. We'll see if anybody comes over to watch. Can't leave anything outside for long here or it will get stolen or destroyed..... 

I used to run garden trains at mall shows, and I'd usually drag out all the 'unprototypical' stuff, like Thomas and James doubleheading to pull all those 'stupid' LGB cars - like the aquarium car, the bubble car, the dinosaur car. Why? Because it drew a LOT more attention, positive comments, and questions than when I ran live steam with a prototypical consist.... go figure. ----- You have to be willing to play to your audience. 

As for cost, I usually tell them it's relative, but that I've spent less than I would have for a bassboat, or a nice quad.....or greens fees.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug
The coverage of large scale/garden railroading through well known venues is lacking. There was a time that large scale was well represented at the "big" train shows such as Greenberg and attracted many with the concept of "railroading" fun in one's garden. A high quality starter set and track was available and did not require lots of real estate to do so.

The growth of the hobby industry always seemed to have had a "trade mark" item to attract the newbies. Most remember Lionel's catalogs, LGB had the outdoors, Aristo brought forth the diesel, TV keep interest with Thomas the Tank and a few movies made railroading interesting. 
The attraction of newbies has to be through promotion and offering that makes the RR hobby doable. Bottomline, it is the opportunity to be in the public eye along with general public participation offering them a chance to be a part of the hobby experience that will entice someone to come back then invest with one's: time, money and/or skills into a hobby interest.

The Aikenback Live Steamers, the Michigan Live Steamers and other have an approach that allows for public viewing and involvement. At the public events I know that the public is invited to participate. The event this summer in the mid-west with 4449/Berkshire will have the MSSLS group setup at a huge public event next to the SP Daylight. The best venues are probably non-train events such as Morris Arbortium, Longwood Gardens, National Mall at Christmas, Farm shows, public buildings or demostrations at schools, community center or camps where kids are peaking their interest and bugging their parents for a train set.

I have seen many established HO home layouts or club layouts attract hundreds each year with advertisement and word of mouth plus it is doable! If one promotes the doable critter and small track then the hobbyists might find MLS and continue to grow their RR empire in their own time; we did (not with a critter) but with an LGB mogul.


If there is a forum that can promote the hobby this has to be the one for this summer:
http://www.trainfestival2009.com/
Just image having your train layout next to 4449 at the MSSLS group setup will be!


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug,

I think that the challenge aspect of your club is what drives new members. 

Frankly, I don't see the dedication to model operations as seen in the smaller scales. Perhaps this is due to lack of control formats (DCC, MTS, DCS, battery, etc..). Perhaps it is something more basic: the cost of the trains and their infrastructure. Perhaps this is what you were hinting at. 

I have been a part of two different large scale clubs and feel the result was the same: I am too you to be a real member. Never mind any of my experience, my age is the defining characteristic. In fact, I have felt that kind of exclusion from this very website in the last year or so. 

The bottom line is the bottom line. Just like in the 1930s, gauge 1 went out of favor because it was too costly. O and HO gauge became more popular. Perhaps we are seeing the beginning of that cycle again and the fact that it takes individuals opening their private properties to public events is the only way forward. I hope not, but I certainly don't have any friends in the local area with large scale layouts (despite the 8 other layouts nearby). Maybe it is time to hang it up.... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark
" I hope not, but I certainly don't have any friends in the local area with large scale layouts (despite the 8 other layouts nearby). Maybe it is time to hang it up.... 

How can you say that with the little tot growing up and just at that development stage of "running trains!"

8 layouts nearby is a pretty good indication of hobby interest. Trains are not like golf (one size fits all). Do not forget there are HO and O models/layouts that cost as much as large scale.

Finally, in the 1930's most every thing went out in favor of "no job, no hobby!" Same for this cycle of the economy, needs before wants.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles and Mark have added an interesting dimension to the discussion.

As I had mentioned, our group of regular operators in the OVGRS is perhaps as large as 25 informal members of whom only a very few are actually primarily large scale folks first and foremost. All the rest model in the smaller scales. Personally, I am a regular operator on Bill Scobie's Sn3 RGS and am the dispatcher on Tom Hood's very large HO Canadian Northern. To us a model railroader is a model railroader regardless of teh scale they work in. And we have had very good success in attracting these modellers to at least dabble in large scale. I have no doubt in my mind that small scale modellers would have a very limited interest in a once a month social event to watch trains run in a circle. But they are active participants in an ops session in any scale - being out in the fresh air in summer is a bonus.

While that participation may not satisfy the goal of having more garden railroads built, it does lead to an incremental increase in the amount of equipment sold. And that too is helpful to us all as solvent manufacturers are more likely to bring us new and better toys.

If I think about the role of clubs in the smaller scales ... Back eons ago when I was a teenager in London Ontario, it required a monumental effort to get even the simplest HO layout to run. Cars had to built from kits, locos did not run smoothly out of the box, cab control wiring was complex. The result was that very few layouts beyond a 4x8 sheet of plywood were actually finished. Those of us who dreamed of acutually modelling a railroad as opposed to modelling a car or loco or structure found that only a club with pooled manpower and resources had the capability to build a railroad large enough to satisfy. So I joined the local club. HO has of course progressed and today, rtr equipment and DCC control systems take most of the drudgery out of empire building. Large home railroads are fairly common and the result has been that virtually no new HO clubs have been started (outside of modular groups) and a good many of the old ones have vanished.

Large scale, it seems to me, is today in a great many ways about where HO was 50 years ago. And that would imply to me that a club could play an important role.

Regards ... Doug


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

When I originally discovered large scale trains in 1991, there were only 4 of us running on Fred’s railway. The IPP&W railway allowed us to start into garden railroading right away, with little out of pocket expense.[/b] We also learned from Fred’s experience how to build our own railways.

I built a large scale layout in the basement, Peter and Stu built garden railways in their backyards. Despite numerous invitations from all three of us, we never did get together to run on each others railways. At that time we were all busy with our careers, families, homes and other activities. Saturday mornings at Fred’s was all the train time we could squeeze into our busy lives. 

My basement railway shrank back to a 2 x 29 foot shelf as described in another recent thread, then transformed into an On30 layout which was removed this past winter when the basement was re-done. Stu lifted his garden railway when he moved. Peter lifted his as he did not have time for it and his wife wanted her garden back. They both donated their track and switches to the club railway.

All three of us remarked that running alone on your own railway was not as much fun as running together on the club railway.[/b] It was not possible that any of us would ever be able to build a railway anywhere near as interesting as Fred’s, and none of us really wanted to go to all that trouble and expense. Fred’s railway is the cumulative effort of many people over a period of about 20 years.

The Ottawa Valley GRS is an un-organization that functions amazingly well. Over the years as the club has grown, each member has voluntarily picked up a task that suits their interest and skill level.[/b] Each spring everyone shows up, keen to help clean up the railway after a long winter. This also a time that the railway’s major project, planned during the winter around the wood stove in the IPP&W Shops, is built. When donations are required to meet an unusual expense, collecting the required funds is not a problem.[/b]

Although there is never any requirement for anyone to show up; we do in increasing numbers to run our trains and enjoy each others company[/b]. As Fred is fond of saying, “If you feel obligated to be here, you’ve missed the point.”


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Large scale clubs, to this point, have not been kind to me. 

I attempted to join the local club five years ago at the age of thirteen and was turned away, because "we don't want kids." They didn't even let me get to the part that I had been studying train operations for several years, that my family has four LGB Moguls, and that I would sell my soul to be able to be around anything involving railroading. 

Since then, I've talked with the local narrow gauge group(mostly smaller scale) and the N scale group, and they both would LOVE any new members no matter what the age. I'm tempted to join them, despite discussing the issue at length with the large scale club's president, just because I've already felt unwelcome within the large scale group. I've found the same elsewhere; anyone under 50 in a large scale group is a "kid" and doesn't know what they're talking about. From my experience, I've also found that I am one of very few large scale enthusiasts in the area who is interested at all in operations. No, I'm not a gardener, no I don't have an outdoor railroad, I actually enjoy prototypical operations. I'm a rivet counter, too, if that makes it any better. 

All in all, the feeling I get is that LS clubs(the ones I've had contact with) are under the belief that you must be "serious" about railroading, and that you have to be at least 50 to be serious about it. Perhaps I'm just trying to have too much fun with modeling?!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It seems to me there are two main things that get people interested in this hobby:

1. the desire for accurate modeling and operations. These are the people who sometimes scare off newcomers, but they are also the people who contribute the most information about how to make things work well. I've sometimes been irritated/offended by snobbish experts. I've also learned most everything I know about making the RR work well from often the same people. 

2. The desire to have a cute looking train run in the garden--to just animate the garden.

I'm probably more number 2 than number 1, but I can see the attraction of the first approach. They aren't mutually exclusive. It does seem to me that the gardening aspect of the hobby is underplayed--there should be some G scale starter sets in garden centers. 

Our layout is in a very public place--a pathway that the whole neighborhood takes to get to a park and to the local hardware store and commercial center. We built it not as a place for rail modelers to operate, but as a place for people who go by to enjoy. A LOT of the people who go by are clearly thinking about doing something similar, and they always ask "where do you find these?" And I have to tell than that the nearest serious shop is an hour away. If I could just say "oh, they have starter sets at X" I'm sure some of them would start their own experiments. 

LGB excelled at "cute." Small trains, slightly cartoonish proportions, solid construction, tight radius curves. Nobody is in that niche right now. Bachmann sort of is, or could be, but their track is terrible for outside. How many people came into the hobby with an LGB starter set? That's what got us started. 


I guess my point is that there is no single approach--some people are already modelers and want to get into G scale. Others just want a cute train running around


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Some interesting posts here, and some in conflict with my experience. 

The local club had no interest in promoting the hobby, and has since gone tits up according to another forum member here. 

My findings have been that European G (excluding track) is MUCH cheaper than my efforts in European HO/H0e. 

If one thinks the costs of starting a garden railway are high, ask my neighbors with their Quad Runners, boats, muscle cars, small airplanes, automatic lead propulsion devices, etc. what their operating costs are.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Effectively and out here in Edmonton there are "traces" of g-scale people however any "official" website is effectively dead. 

It appears that we, in Edmonton, are a very private people... Discreet and too busy focusing on the short running season Vs say the opportunities to use the hobby as a vehicle to socialize with fellow minded people over the span of 12 months.


Every overture that I've made has been greeted with blunt silence.. 

Must be my rotting (or not) teeth at work here. ( Remember.... 50 years + to be credible according to some on this forum?) 


Shame.

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 05/29/2009 2:23 PM
Some interesting posts here, and some in conflict with my experience. 

The local club had no interest in promoting the hobby, and has since gone tits up according to another forum member here. 

My findings have been that European G (excluding track) is MUCH cheaper than my efforts in European HO/H0e. 

If one thinks the costs of starting a garden railway are high, ask my neighbors with their Quad Runners, boats, muscle cars, small airplanes, automatic lead propulsion devices, etc. what their operating costs are.





I love tits up, better than tits down


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a HO club in a church basement near here (definitely NOT handicapped accessible), mostly old guys, kind of cliquish, has a couple open houses a year. There is a guy who runs o-scale at the county fair. 

In LS there is me. -- There also WAS some perv who had to sell his g scale stuff as part of his plea agreement because it 'attracted children'. nice.... 

My daughter says I have more LS trains than BOTH the LHSs combined. She's probably right. 

Edit: Kim reminded me, one of our neighbors commented last summer that I must be "weak in the head" because I play with trains... guess I don't need to invite him over to run.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Saturday for our operating session brought a surprise.

The LHS in Ottawa does not sell large scale trains. But saturday morning, the proprietor of the LHS showed up with his young son and a nice looking Connie that was RC'ed by an Aristo TE. He joined right in and using his loco ran an extra ... both he and his son had a good time. It was the first time he has ever attended one of our ops sessions.

Despite the very cold and wet weather we had another good turnout with several more new faces ptting in their first appearance of the season. If we get a day when everyone comes out, it will be one busy operating session!

Regards ... Doug


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Doug, 
I'm a prime example of your theory. Although I worked in a model train shop, I had little interest in large scale (HO only) until I was invited over to Goodson's (TOC's) house to run trains one friday night. After I got through the bullsh** that happens when a young 16 old kid meets up with old, grumpy (okay not all the time) cigar smoking, beer drinking guys I had a blast. Dave let me run one of his locomotives, and I was hooked in large scale. I suprized my parents when I said I wanted to buy a g gauge locomotive that night! I've just started working on my own layout (much smaller then Dave's) but it's something to call my own. I still only have my one locomotive, but I keep saving money to get another one so I can have 'operations' on my layout when someone comes over to see my house. 
Get people interested, and soon they'll be addicted like the rest of us. 
Craig


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Guys... you are reminding newcomers of the Large Scale initiation process of gargling peanut butter while running down the street barefoot in 95º weather aren't you?... 

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Engineercub on 06/01/2009 5:14 PM
Guys... you are reminding newcomers of the Large Scale initiation process of gargling peanut butter while running down the street barefoot in 95º weather aren't you?... 

-Will




Will, things in perspective please... 

I like the "grumpy old man swilling beer and stoking cigars" bit. 


What is this all about? 

gg


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

No, I think its more about realizing that most of the large scalers are retired, older men with lots of time to kill. So they play trains and bullsh** with one another. I would love to see more younger people get into the hobby, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. This hobby like any other hobby takes time, energy, and money. Yes you can do without one of these, but collectively they all work together. Did you know that teenagers have the most disposable income then any other age group? 
I think large scalers are more welcoming to younger people then smaller scale groups. 

Craig


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig
Welcome, glad you enjoyed the experience and made LS you hobby choice. 

The majority are older in the hobby at large but not all are grumpy, beer drinking nor have cigars in their mouths. Myself-older not retired, am full of it and enjoy playing with trains. Many, as with all social groups, enjoy each another's company.


I am not sure that teenagers can match the funding level of many of retire age but you keep us informed about the purchase and layout.


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

I have found that showing model trains to the public (in any scale) is the best way to keep our hobby alive and growing. For the Oklahoma Centennial Camporee in 2007, my Venturing Crew hosted a model railroad exhibit that was open to Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and the general public. We had an operating HO layout, several narrow-gauge Sn3 modules, multiple displays on model-building and scenery techniques, and posters on railroad safety. We also taught the Railroading Merit Badge for Boy Scouts. We had several computer workstations set-up with Microsoft Train Simulator and Trainz that the kids really loved. We had railroad videos runnning continuously on a large screen display. We are planning on doing it again for the 100th anniversary celebration for the Boy Scouts in 2010 and will have an operational large scale set-up in addition to what we had the last time. Here are some photos from the 2007 exhibit. By the way ... yes, those are teenage girls in some of the photos. Venturing is a co-ed program of the Boy Scouts of America, and girls do like trains just like boys do!

Bob

photo1
photo2
photo3

photo4
photo5

photo6


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

The only young members that continually attend our operating sessions are the sons of club members. They are very adept at running trains and often help with the railway maintenance. Here is group of them ballasting Nelson Freight Yard.









Unfortunately the young lads usually disappear in their mid teens when they discover sports and/or girls. It may be 30 or 40 years before they return to the hobby.


In my youth a Lionel train set was $39.95. There was no way I could afford one with a dollar a week allowance. When I had enough money saved working odd jobs (washing windows, helping with paper routes, running errands), I bought a green stamp book from my mum for $10. She usually bought $10 worth of groceries with them. With two green stamp books I could get a Lionel starter set. They now sell for 10 times that price.

In my late teens, I would drool at the fine HO steam locomotives in the glass display case of a downtown hobby shop. But when you earned $95 every two weeks, bought your own clothes, had working expenses, and paid $50 for room and board; there is no way you could afford even the smallest locomotive from that display case.

My interest in trains disappeared in my roaring 20s, a period my motorcycle friends and I referred to as the “Decade of Decadence”. At that time I could finally afford trains, but was too busy riding my bike, drinking beer, and chasing women. That all ended ten years later when one of them actually caught me. 










It was not until I was 45 that I returned to the hobby and discovered large scale trains. It was the early death of a friend that prompted me to pick a hobby, rather than wait until retirement some 13 years later.

Locally we have a large club of almost 200 members that has been around for almost fifty years. It is an umbrella organization that encompasses model railroaders of all scales. Despite their continued efforts to bring young people into the hobby, the meetings are a sea of grey.

I don’t think any club sets out to exclude any particular age group. It is just natural that people of a certain age have similar interests. I belonged to a computer club and a motor cycle touring club in the ‘80s. Most of the members were of similar age. All of the sports teams I joined had players of similar age, except for one old fart who discovered the enjoyment of sports late in life.

Nor do I think that clubs, teams or social groups deliberately ignore new members. The relationships within any group are well established before you join. They are usually referred to as “cliques” by new members. These relationships are usually formed by common interests, common values, and compatible (although sometimes different) personalities.

It is a matter of listening to people and finding out where you might fit in, and then doing something about it. That cute girl in high school that you had a crush on never walked across the floor to ask you to dance; and neither will anybody else. If you want something, you have to go out and get it. As the Stones use to sing “You won't always get what you want, but if you try real hard, you get what you need.”


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles,

Good point. Growing my own might work out. Luke already gets very excited when he sees trains on TV, so who knows. Those Thomas and Percy sets coming out this Fall should go a long way to bringing some people in to large scale. I don't see how I am going to avoid both sets!! 

Expanding a bit to the control of the trains. If you have everyone running battery, then everyone's equipment can run at the same time. If all my train buddies were using DCC, I would probably convert to DCC as well. My friend Chris is converting to the new aristo TE system, and I will probably do likewise, for compatibility reasons. We get together enough that we could run operations on either of our railroads. Additionally, I feel like it will be a simple enough system to control that when Luke is old enough, we can run trains together. (Meaning: his train runs on the mainline, controlled by him. Likely at warp 9, but that's OK. Meanwhile, I can be working with a switcher fitting in around his schedule.) One of my good friends does not have a layout, but quite a bit of rolling stock. He is more in to weathering and kitbashing at this point. 

I always feel like the live steam crowd gets together and helps each other out, which is really a great aspect of live steam. The difficulties with those little machines and the nuances of their operation lends itself to that kind of interaction, and frankly, I have never had any problems with live steam folk. 

Mike, I agree with you on the 'cuteness' factor of LGB trains. I got my start with them as well, and consider them to be a benchmark when it comes to running characteristics. Your experience with the bypassers is similar to mine. A neighbor is thinking of getting some trains for her grandkids to run. Probably an eggliner set.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

hummm...??? I guess I am just different... I just like to see trains run. 
To scale, any scale, perfectly modeled, toy out of the box, if it is a train and fascinates me! 
Put a loop in the front yard.. if I see it, I would stop. 
Have a public run day, I would come if invited. 

Bottom line is if you make anyone with the slightest interests feel like they are WELCOME they will be much more apt to catch the bug. 
There is a layout here in Houston... that I go to on occasion. One or two of the members go way out of their way to make people feel welcome... most do not. Most simply ignore the kids and the people who are just waiting for an opportunity to ask a question. 
Make a person feel like if they don't know about this, you would love to teach them! That is the key. 

I don't have my permanent layout set up, but when I set up my Christmas layout, anytime someone stopped by I went out gave them a candy cane and watched the trains run in circles with them for as long as they wanted. I actually had one lady and her kids come back every night just to watch. I had another lady who was from Germany stop by and just go to tears. She and her husband used to have a layout way back when but she lost it when he passed and she had to move. 
My goal now is to get something going that I can show more people on a year round basis, to encourage people in the neighborhood to stop and watch and learn if they want… 

I will also say that the bickering and arguing on some of the posts on this site tend to encourage voyeurs and discourage participation and membership. It is almost like what the members have to say is spoken above the heads of newbie’s and they should not interrupt, if that makes any sense? 
Yes this is a GREAT SITE and once you get up the nerve to ask a question you will be flooded with more info then you could possibly imagine... but what good is that if people are afraid to ask. 

Being excited about the hobby and having no clue where to start is where most people back out of this great hobby! 
So thank you to all you who are so eager to help us newbie’s and to some of you more experienced members keep it simple for us, that helps a lot.


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