# Looks like a timing issue?



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug and I took off at noon to run some errands in Framingham, grab some hot dogs meet at Andy's in Boxford for a steam up. My S-14 had a couple brass cars behind her and was making some slow and steady runs. Andy commented a few times how smoothly she was operating, and it is for that reason alone I hold him responsible for what happened next.

I filled her up for another run and came to pressure. Once there I moved the J-bar back and forth to clear the cylinders but something felt different. There was a lot of water coming out and the engine rolled with resistance. Did I over fill the boiler and force water in the cylinders? At one point going back and forth it felt as if the J-bar moved back further than it should have. 

Once let go to run it went off like an inch worm. Move forward one revolution then come to a halt, the four cars behind her would accordion together against the tender as the locomotive lurched forward one revolution, stretching the cars back out, only to pause and repeat the whole cycle over again. I mean the motion was almost comical watching this thing skootching along the track. Aside from the fact this was my personal locomotive running improperly I have the idea of making an inch worm with cloth, some trucks, a caboose and a coil of some kind (perhaps a dryer vent tube) all together making some inch worm type thing to play with along with Thomas when the kids come over. Once the S-14 is remedied of its jerking motion we can we can pull the caterpillar behind the RH and use RC for the stop go action. 

So Andy and Richard took a look and saw nothing was binding which led them to believe it might be a timing issue. I have my strobe and see no fan belt, this is new territory for me. I have until the 16th before the next steam up so I'm clearing a spot on the bench then getting ready for bed. I trust by the time I am ready to peek inside and take a look there will be some pointers and guidance from friends on MLS to set me in the right suggestion. Thanks.

As far as pictures and video, I saw Doug walking around with his camera and looking through it a lot. He does this often though I seldom see the results, so maybe it's all pretend. Maybe we can convince him to post some! 

I will make a point to get photos from Andy's on the 16th.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

My AML 0-6-0 does this with too much water in the boiler and a sudden burst of acceleration, The water is sloshing back and forth in the boiler, in a rhythm, pushing water down the steam pipe. It won't run smoothly until the water level decreases and I slowly increase the speed of the loco to prevent the sloshing/ wave effect.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

This definitely didn't seem like an overfilled boiler situation. That's what Kent guessed at first, but there was no evidence of wet exhaust, and after a lap around the layout the jerky motion hadn't got any better. If anything, it was getting worse. We tried it in reverse too, which was perhaps marginally better, but still jerky. The running gear seemed to bind up when the rods on the right hand side were at 3:00 (all the way forward). I thought perhaps the crank pin on the front wheel was hitting the crosshead guides but it wasn't. Watching it closely on both sides through several full revolutions, there wasn't anything obviously binding in the outside motion. After Kent shut her down and she had cooled off, we tried pushing her forwards and backwards with the J-bar in the appropriate positions and no pressure in the system, and she rolled smoothly with no binding.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

After it had cooled down, did you try it again? 
I would take some water out and try it again, just to make sure that something IS wrong. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys, I plan on checking it out again this weekend. I'm hoping it may have resolved itself as a water issue, I would have tried running it again last night except it was getting late and we had to drive back to the Cape. I'll let you know what I find.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent, 

In my experience "jerky" running is an indication of insufficient steam in the cylinders. Since you say that the boiler came up to pressure could it be that there is some loose material somewhere in the steam lines that is working like a check valve whenever whenever there is a significant flow of steam? Maybe the appearance of the cylinders failing to clear themselves of condensate means that there was insufficient steam pressure to clear them, and furthermore the insufficiency of steam meant that the cylinders never got hot enough to keep themselves clear. What little steam got to the cylinders mostly just condensed back to liquid. 

Steve


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Can u run it on an air compressor and rollers, Will eliminate a bunch of possible factors (like timing - steam does modify timing a tiny bit though)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm no expert, but I read all the LS threads. There's something that is unusual and it's the extra water, and rolling with resistance. Of course the rolling resistance makes sense with the extra water, too much water in the cylinders. 

I know the mechanics of temperature, how stuff can condense in the cylinders, etc., but the thing is that it's your loco and ran fine before, and you are not unfamiliar with the loco. 

I have no idea of what other things that could put too much water in the system, but are there any other out of the ordinary things that happened that could be clues? 

Will be interested to find what the real cause is. 

Regards, Greg


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Kent, 
That sounds like one of the return cranks has shifted. compare each side in turn looking at the angle of the return crank with the rods horizontal 

Th other possibilty is a wheel is loose on its axle.unlikely but it does occur . 

Gordon.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Taperpin on 08 Jul 2011 04:31 PM That sounds like one of the return cranks has shifted. compare each side in turn looking at the angle of the return crank with the rods horizontal 
Th other possibilty is a wheel is loose on its axle.unlikely but it does occur . 
That thought crossed my mind too. We checked both return cranks, both felt solid, and I eyeballed the angle relative to the wheel and they both seemed to match. I didn't think to check to see if any of the wheels were loose, but everything looked to be in alignment.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Does this loco have an axle pump that could be binding?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent, Since the S12 is a walscherts have you checked the Jbar linkages that go from the reach rod to the lifting arms? There are 3 arms held on with a set screw. I have had a set screw come loose on one of my engines and it caused one side to not go into full gear and function properly. 

Also pull the safety out along with the 10mm adapter plug, look inside and you should see a 3mm pipe sticking up there the dry pipe. Make sure its still as high as it can get. A piece of wire bent to a J can pull it up if it dropped down a bit. It the throttle comes straight from the top of the boiler then it wont be there.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I spent some time with my locomotive this afternoon and I have ruled out a water issue. I'm pretty sure it is timing.
As I look at the fireman's side of the locomotive I was running in forward, so wheel rotation would be counter clockwise. As the drive rod post came to 3:00 it would stop and the steam could be heard from the stack, sounding like a blower. The wheel could be manually rolled up to 12:00 where the steam kicks in and pushes her around to 3:00.

Does anyone have drawings I can compare the sides to and check the eccentrics? I want to double check that before I go further.


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

A friend of mine has a Mason Bogie that he overfilled the boiler on during one run. In the process he lifted the D valve off of its seat in the valve chest. It would only run on one side much like you are describing your problem. We called Cliff at Accucraft to see what to do to sort the problem out. He recommended the following. 

Lift the locomotive up at the front end about an INCH while leaving the real wheels on the track and left it drop !! This action snaps the D valve back down onto the seat in the valve chest. This fixed the problem in short order and he was off and running again. We had thought we were going to have to remove the valve cover to fix the valve problem but this worked. 

Charles M SA # 74


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

RE: dropping the engine--in the old days, a 2# hammer was standard equipment in a steam engine seatbox. 

Larry


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

of course the S-12 has spool or piston valves to this is all academic but: 

When I turned the engine up side down, the D valves dropped away from the valve seat. 

hate the idea of dropping an engine but the d-valves can stick. if they are free enough a tap with a screw driver on the cylinders may jog them back into place. Air being cooler does not warm the oil which can be kida sticky. I was working on my roundhouse the otherday on air and got terrible performance-until i removed the valve covers and sparyed WD40 onto the valves which freed them to work fine once the covers were put back on. 


when you have the covers off, it is easy enough to see if the valve events work as they should.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, the S-12 has D-valves. One day one of the D-valves lifted off its seat in my S-12. There was a constant sound of steam exhausting, but the locomotive continued to run smoothly even though it was obvious that it was missing half of its "chuffs". I can't remember how the problem was fixed. Either I tapped on the cylinders or the valve fell back in place on its own. 

When you run a loco on air squirt some steam oil into the steam line before you attach the air hose, or remove the valve covers as Eric did and squirt the oil on the valves. Air shouldn't require a constant supply of oil because air doesn't scrub off the oil like steam does. 

Steve


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent , 

Was there ever a solution to your problem ? Enquiring minds want to know . 

Charles M SA #74


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I appreciate all the input. I have cleared a spot on the bench and I will begin this week. I'll keep ya posted


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