# MTH Big Boy



## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

Well, I finally did it. I've been eyeing the MTH Big Boy with Protosound 2.0 in my local hobby shop for a very long time. I managed to work out the numbers as to how I could buy it, and negotiated 10% off the price, and went ahead and bought the thing. I don't know why. I have nowhere to run it, I have no prototypical cars to run behind it, and it was stretching my budget. But I bought it anyway. After my Aristo Mallet escapade last fall, I took a break from G scale and dabbled a bit in N scale, and purchased an Athearn Big Boy with sound and DCC. So, now I have two Big Boys, in very different scales. I gotta say, the MTH is just simply gorgeous, it really is nice to look at, and the lighting and smoke are absolutely fantastic looking. The sound even sounds very well, though on high volume settings, it's well, loud. DUH! 



One question: I know for a fact that this locomotive has sat in a display case for at least one year. My brother, who generally knows better than I do, said I probably didn't need to lubricate it. However, below about ten SMPH, it seems to not run as smooth as I think it should, considering what I have heard from other owners. So, should I go ahead and lubricate the gears and siderods? I'm thinking yes, but don't want to do anything that may damage it. Are these locos supposed to be smooth at low speeds? I know Rayman has a lot of experience with these locos, so if he'd like to step in and give me some advice, I'd really appreciate it. Also, obviously, if anyone else wants to step in, PLEASE do. EDIT: I did forget to mention that I don't think the drivers are out of quarter, as it seems to run exactly the same both forwards and reverse.


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

33 views and no replies? Someone must have a thought to put in. Don't be shy!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

He should write to Ray.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd send Ray an e-mail. Probably to busy to visit forum. Later RJD


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

You are not going to hurt it by giving it some lube. I lope everything right out of the box. They've been in a container ship and in trucks- hot/cold so the lube won't hurt.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

MTH is notorious for smooth running at low speeds. 

I had an issue with my Hudson with the same symptoms and it turned out that the quartering was off on the wheels. Something to check. At low speeds, is the unit jerky per sae? 

gg


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I own a big boy and wouldn't hesitate to lube everything liberally - the engine's a tank and it's unlikely you'll damage anything. Just ensure that the fiddly bits (side rods, etc.) don't get dirty while they're still wet with oil. I love my engine, but it's currently down with a fried smoke unit.


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

Yes, at low speeds, the engine is a little jerky. It's not awful, just a little bit of "hesitation" so to speak. I watched Rayman's video of his with out of quarter drivers, and it's nowhere near as bad as that. It also appears to run the same forwards and backwards. I'll try lubricating it and run it some to see what happens before I go further with it.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Let Ray weigh in on this. 

What I did is pull the shell off on the loco and mounted the drivers on rollers and applied the power. From there I noticed the quartering issue. The frame was being stressed. I video'd it and sent it to Ray. 

My message is don't work the unit till you can confirm that it is not a quartering issue. 


gg


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

We called MTH and they said it's a known problem and the onboard circuit board is fried; tested it and it's only picking up power from the pickup shoes, and nothing from the drivers. 

Oops? 



We thankfully have an MTH repair center only about ten miles from our house, we're dropping it off in the morning and it should be a week or two, but this time we can verify that it works unlike the Aristo Mallet. 



I will also say that this engine is unbelievably massive, and that R3 curves are useless. Time for some AMS flex and another garden railroad?


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

I've had the Railking Bigboy for two years now together with a couple of Challengers and a GS4 Daylight.
I lightly oiled all the motion and wheel axles on all of them before they ran and they are very smooth. Check my Bigboy on youtube for slow running!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXIPDE_Uu1E

Here is a picture showing a close up of the superb detai of these great engines.
Had a problem with the smoke with one of my Challengers however. I emailed Raiking from here in the UK and they sent a replacement unit. We re-fitted it ourselves.
If you want the contact name I would be happy to give it if you email me through the forum.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Main131: Have you been using that big boy as a battering ram?! Is it me or is the pilot bent down?

TLS: Are you running your loco on dirty track? Is it clamped or is it simply slid together? When I run trains in my basement on temporary layouts, it is fairly common that I have electrical issues (specifically related to getting power to the trains) at lower speeds. So it might not be your locomotive.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Mark: 

We flipped it in the box and tried the Kadee wheel cleaner; no power except through the shoes. Track is PHENOMENALLY clean, we tried that first; scrubbed it until even the Lionel 0-6-0 runs without stuttering. 

It's currently at a local shop for a warranty repair--I think I'm going to pick up a K-27 there also


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Have you been using that big boy as a battering ram?! Is it me or is the pilot bent down?

Not that I am aware of although come to think of it, there was some wreckage by the track recently which might have been a Stainz.
When you drive a Big boy you don't notice things like that!


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey guys, I haven't been on MLS in a while. 

GG, on your Hudson, if I recall right wasn't the issue that it was originally thought to be a quartering issue and when you sent a video of the engine running slow we were able to point out that the eccentric arm was installed incorrectly on one side? I think it turned out that you indicated the arm was loose and you had to put back on and tighten it, but was put on in such a way that it was straining the valving support brace and once fixed the engine smoothed out? (So in the end it didn't have a quartering problem I don't think.)

On the photo of the bent down pilot, MTH had problems with shipping damage and the front pilots getting broken. It's another reason why they went so far on the enhanced packaging for the triplex. Main131, was it like that when you got it?

Got to chat with John some and it sounds like a couple of issues going on. One thing was it was running with a power supply set to Pulse width control on and not linear. Not sure if the PWC could have damaged the electronics or make it not run smooth but we did identify that. Now running on linear mode. (mentioning this for others who may read this.. do not run DCS engines under PWC) I still think the engine has a quartering issue as it sounds like it has minor binding at two spots per rev. There was some report of flickering of the lights, my guess is that if the wheels are clean we will find it's some sort of power pickup issue. burned trace, or something. On this engine, when front and rear engine sets are picking up power you should have no problems with getting constant power to the electronics.

When you want to clean the wheels, use alligator clips and clip on to the sliders directly from the power source, I wouldn't rely on the wheel pickups as only the second axle has power pickup brushes and you may not get reliable power transfer through the connecting rods from one axle set to another. (The front axles do have power pickups but those wheels have traction tires so...)

As far as the power pickup issue, I would interpret what MTH was saying was that if you aren't picking up power from either the inside wheel pickups or sliders on the front engine set then you have burned trace(s) on the rear power transfer board under the rear driver set. (the way to test this is to use a voltmeter and test for continuity between say the rear and front sliders(on the same side of the engine). If you have continuity, your trace is ok, if you don't it's blown on that side. The way MTH is fixing this now is to run a jumper wire along the top of the frame between the front and rear wires. This allows you to fix it without replacing the board.

The #2 axle on the rear engine set is the last power pickup in the chain so even if you have a high amp short that blows the trace between the rear engine slider and that wheel, you should still be picking up power from that wheel/axle. 

If you truly don't have power pickup from only the inside wheel power pickups, I would remove the pickup assembly (held in by one screw) and see if it is plugged in. If it is, then I would make sure the brush wires aren't broken and if not, remove the rear plate under the wheel set and inspect the wires and board.

http:\\www.rayman4449.dynip.com\MTH_Big_Boy_Board_Cut_1.JPG - 

http:\\www.rayman4449.dynip.com\MTH_Big_Boy_Board_Cut_2.JPG - here it is unplugged

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Shorting%20on%20Cross-over%20/%20Slider%20modification - For reference




If the MTH service center is going to have the engine open, I would request that they insulate the motor diode from the frame while they are in there:

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Electrically%20Isolating%20the%20Motor%20Diode


Good luck, look forward to hearing how you make out.


Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Kripes Ray, 

When you answer, you do indeed answer.....









Now for my quartering, I pulled out and moved a bunch of linkage and things got better ! How's that for a techno answer ? 

Wow and Regards, 

gg











PS: Tell MTH that more work is required on their packaging. Especially for soft belly locos.. I have !


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

To answer a couple questions, I have no idea what the MTH service center is going to do with the locomotive, they said they would "check it out when we get to it." I do not know if this means they will simply run it on their test track and see what happens, or if they will attempt to make any repairs. 

markoles: The track has been cleaned extensively because of this problem, as I originally suspected that dirty track was likely the cuplrit. The track is only slid together, with no clamps or anything holding it together, however, all my other locos seem to run beautifully, including some old Bachmann ten-wheelers (from train sets) which had power pickup that could best be described as flaky. I've heard that the MTH Big Boy is not picky about power pickup in the slightest, so I would imagine that, assuming it was working perfectly, there would not be a problem. I was not able to obtain pickup from the front set of drivers when I performed a test. We'll have to see what the service center says, they told me it would be around two weeks or so.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't weigh in on your original question but yes I would go ahead and lubricate the side rods and the axles. The gears are already greased and you won't have any issue with it sitting for just 1 year. (The only gears on the engine are on the rear axle and motor... power is transfered to the #3, 2, and 1 axles via the connecting rods.

Well hopefully they can take care of the quartering too (assuming it needs to be corrected).

The fact that you had no power pickup from the front engine set confirms you have a burned trace(s) and is most likely why you were having the lights flicker. That is actually good news because it's easy to fix and should mean you don't have anything more serious going on.

Just for a full understanding, is your track/layout outside? Are you using brass or Stainless steel? How long has the track been deployed?

You may also want to consider adding fuses between the front and rear engine sets. It's not hard to do and may save you trouble in the future. 

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Adding%20fuses%20between%20front%20and%20rear%20engine%20power%20pickup%20wires%20to%20protect%20from%20short%20damage 



Raymond


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

The track is indoors. Brass LGB Code 332. It has been deployed for, hmm, probably at least 10 years. It was outside at one point, but when we put the layout back indoors, we cleaned it all thoroughly, and the track received a good cleaning before we tried to run the Big Boy on it. It's so shiny I could almost use it as a mirror  I have asked the service center to take a look at the quartering to see if they notice any abnormalities. I'm hoping it can be fixed, it's really a beautiful engine, and I can't wait to get it running right!


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok good deal. 

All I will say is that engine can be made to run right, the question is will they or do they have the ability to fix it (and I'm talking about the quartering). If you get that engine back and it has hesitations at slow speed, and they say it either did not have quartering issues or they fixed it then it needs to go back to MTH directly. I hope they get it all fixed up too. 

If you do still have the issue, the key way to tell if you have a quartering problem is: when looking at the fireman's side while it's moving forward, if you see a hesistation with the rods/rod pins on an engine set at around the 4 to 5 o'clock position (actually between the 4 and 5 position), then that's a quartering problem. (You are having an impact of the #2 axle and #3 axle connecting rod on the engineer side into the #2 driver rod pin. (Axles numbered from front to back 1, 2, 3, 4)) The #2 rod pin hasn't been pulled round far enough and is still on the way up in it's rotation. You will really need clear visibility to both sides to watch this happen and you need to run it VERY slowly. (1 SMPH) Also, apply some resistance to the front (#1) driver/axle to accentuate the problem. That should help it be more visible. Because I know what to look for, I actually do this with the engine on it's side and rotate the #4 driver by hand and apply resistance on the #1 axle.

Ok, I'm done. (just wanted to give all the info in case you need it) 

Let us know how you make out.


Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 05/12/2009 8:34 PM
Ok good deal. 

All I will say is that engine can be made to run right, the question is will they or do they have the ability to fix it (and I'm talking about the quartering). If you get that engine back and it has hesitations at slow speed, and they say it either did not have quartering issues or they fixed it then it needs to go back to MTH directly. I hope they get it all fixed up too. 

If you do still have the issue, the key way to tell if you have a quartering problem is: when looking at the fireman's side while it's moving forward, if you see a hesistation with the rods/rod pins on an engine set at around the 4 to 5 o'clock position (actually between the 4 and 5 position), then that's a quartering problem. (You are having an impact of the #2 axle and #3 axle connecting rod on the engineer side into the #2 driver rod pin. (Axles numbered from front to back 1, 2, 3, 4)) The #2 rod pin hasn't been pulled round far enough and is still on the way up in it's rotation. You will really need clear visibility to both sides to watch this happen and you need to run it VERY slowly. (1 SMPH) Also, apply some resistance to the front (#1) driver/axle to accentuate the problem. That should help it be more visible. Because I know what to look for, I actually do this with the engine on it's side and rotate the #4 driver by hand and apply resistance on the #1 axle.

Ok, I'm done. (just wanted to give all the info in case you need it) 

Let us know how you make out.


Raymond








Bingo, 

Ray, you put the techno into the beautiful product. Option ... take the shell off and look at operation on the plan view. 

gg


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

I received my Big Boy back from the service center, and I am happy to report that all is well. The guy at the store told me that the main board was bad. One of the power traces was incomplete, indicating that it was a manufacturing error, and the other side was melted, which I probably caused. He bypassed the board with some wires and all is well. I think the hesitation was mainly due to the power pickup, not the quartering.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad to hear the good news, enjoy!


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/12/2009 9:05 PM
Posted By Rayman4449 on 05/12/2009 8:34 PM
Ok good deal. 

All I will say is that engine can be made to run right, the question is will they or do they have the ability to fix it (and I'm talking about the quartering). If you get that engine back and it has hesitations at slow speed, and they say it either did not have quartering issues or they fixed it then it needs to go back to MTH directly. I hope they get it all fixed up too. 

If you do still have the issue, the key way to tell if you have a quartering problem is: when looking at the fireman's side while it's moving forward, if you see a hesistation with the rods/rod pins on an engine set at around the 4 to 5 o'clock position (actually between the 4 and 5 position), then that's a quartering problem. (You are having an impact of the #2 axle and #3 axle connecting rod on the engineer side into the #2 driver rod pin. (Axles numbered from front to back 1, 2, 3, 4)) The #2 rod pin hasn't been pulled round far enough and is still on the way up in it's rotation. You will really need clear visibility to both sides to watch this happen and you need to run it VERY slowly. (1 SMPH) Also, apply some resistance to the front (#1) driver/axle to accentuate the problem. That should help it be more visible. Because I know what to look for, I actually do this with the engine on it's side and rotate the #4 driver by hand and apply resistance on the #1 axle.

Ok, I'm done. (just wanted to give all the info in case you need it) 

Let us know how you make out.


Raymond








Bingo, 

Ray, you put the techno into the beautiful product. Option ... take the shell off and look at operation on the plan view. 

gg


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

After three hours of running, the Big Boy is back to not running well at all. There's a burned electronics smell coming from it now, and it hardly picks up power at all again. I'm going to try and receive a refund on Tuesday when the store I purchased it from reopens. I think I've had enough frustration already.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That's unfortunate. 

The short condition that apparently still exists has now blown the/a trace from the back side and you are now probably only picking up power from the rear wheel power pickup. 

For others reading this in the future doing searches, this is why this repair requires an understanding of the root cause (i.e. service center responsibility to have the knowledge to understand what questions to ask the owner about layout conditions and to know certain things to check like slider screw height) and the addition of some sort of safegard to ensure the traces from the other direction (which are much larger and can handle even higher amps) are not burned out as well. In this case some sort of polyfuse should have been included in the jumper wires to ensure the traces weren't blown by the what is an obviously still exsiting short condition that keeps happening. Most likely there is either a cross-over or switch where the sliders screws or sliders are shorting. I suppose a powered frog with incorrect polarity could be a possibility as well. I recommend folks dealing with this issue thoroughly read the Big Boy section under the Modifications and Repair page on my website that has write-ups that deals with this issue to ensure you don't have repeat situations such as this happen to you with this engine. (Either that or have your repair center read and understand it.) This is another unfortunate example of us as the consumer not being able to just fully rely on those tasked with fixing these things for us.









Of course the real issue was the oversight in not including a polyfuse + larger power trace on the front side of the board to begin with in the original circuit design. I never checked to see how the new Triplex rear board was setup, I assume the issue has been resolved/addressed.

In a sad irony I just ran my 3 MTH Big Boys for several hours yesterday with no issue (as is always the case) and am about to go run them again in a little bit. 

Sorry yours is a bust for you. Hope you can get a full refund.


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

That's too bad about your Big Boy but it sounds like you have some serious track issues that should have been corrected before you ever attempted to operate a MTH Big Boy.

The reason I say this is your comment here..
" One of the power traces was incomplete, indicating that it was a manufacturing error, and the other side was melted, which I probably caused."

In another post you state that R3 curves are useless and you were considering AML code 250 flex track to run the thing.

But still in another post it's stated thay you're using PWC when on page 56 of the MTH Big Boy Instruction Manual clearly states not to use a power supply employing PWM.

Good luck upon returning it for a refund seeing how it was new when you first purchased it, had a MTH ASC repair it and you've used it again on a layout that's not really designed for it.

MTH return policy has been changed to where MTH has the option of fixing it, replacing it or issuing you a credit and what kind of credit do you suppose that you'll receive with burned up electronics??


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm not sure how the layout wasn't designed for a Big Boy. The locomotive is approved for use on R3 curves. I am not sure that the PWC caused the damage to the board, it also could have been because of the pickup sliders shorting on a switch frog. Even so, after the locomotive was repaired, it seemed to run fine for around 3 hours, with the power supply set to linear, and yet the issue has returned. There were no shorts on a switch that I witnessed, indicating there is probably a short occurring within the engine. All my frogs are unpowered, so that isn't a factor in this incident. The retailer's return policy states I have thirty days to return a defective product, so I shouldn't have a problem returning it to them for a full refund. Either way, I think I'm returning to my old thought that perhaps large scale locomotives just haven't reached the quality that the smaller scales have attained. My Athearn N scale Big Boy has run better than any of the four different articulated locomotives I've had the displeasure of owning in large scale. I hate to sound so negative, but after my very similar incident with the Aristo Mallet last summer, my frustration level is increasing. Especially considering I just spent my savings from the last year on a product that hasn't worked the way it was designed to since I purchased it.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*As not to sound Rude but have you thought about collecting fish? HE HE HE they dont short out and are much cheaper than large scale trains in witch you seem to have no good luck with? 1st your mallet going back 3 times for work and now the bigboy sorry to hear about all your problems. hopefully things will get better for you with large trains. good luck with your refund hope you can recoupe your $*


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

We set up a 10x50 foot oval on our driveway, singular R3 turnout on a straight, one that has a wide enough plastic frog that the pickup shoes can't touch it. The Big Boy ran fine for three hours on this track before literally going nuts--it'll be at full power before randomly stopping, starting, jerking, everything, while the sound system goes absolutely insane. It sounds horrible and I'm sure cannot be good on the gears. No shorting in those three hours--we completely disassembled the indoor railroad for this test. The engine smells completely horrible, it's hard to get near it without gasping for breath. It appears to be picking up power, but you just can't control the thing. 

Oh--and at 24 volts it's doing MAYBE 30 scale miles per hour. The old Bachmann Plus 4-6-0 is at least double as fast. I don't understand it?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Nick, nick, nick.... that is so rude and you know it 

Will you feel any better when say; I don't mean to insult you and make implications about your liniage, but you're a ......? 

TLS; Only the prices suggest the quality of HO brass. The biggest compromise is what must be done for unrealistily tight curves, My 'wide' radius 10' diameter track is the equivelent of 15"r in HO 

Here's how I got that; I'm in 1/24 scale 10' dia = 5'r =60"r. O is 1/48 so that curve would be 30"r and roughly half of O is HO at 15". I don't know what R3 means, but would you run a bigboy on HO around a 15"r curve? Nope didn't think so. These are more toylike with expensive electronics...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05/23/2009 9:05 PM
Nick, nick, nick.... that is so rude and you know it 

Will you feel any better when say; I don't mean to insult you and make implications about your liniage, but you're a ......? 

TLS; Only the prices suggest the quality of HO brass. The biggest compromise is what must be done for unrealistily tight curves, My 'wide' radius 10' diameter track is the equivelent of 15"r in HO 

Here's how I got that; I'm in 1/24 scale 10' dia = 5'r =60"r. O is 1/48 so that curve would be 30"r and roughly half of O is HO at 15". I don't know what R3 means, but would you run a bigboy on HO around a 15"r curve? Nope didn't think so. These are more toylike with expensive electronics...







You joined only 3 months ago so you probably wernt here when he had all the problems with his mallet last year so now you have a clue no? and if your going to call someone a a---------- at least use your real name............. and we have another guy that hides behind a boys picture...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick was joking... at least that's how I took it. "he he he" means laughter... 

Even if he meant to be rude, two wrongs do not make a right... and you really do NOT know the history on this one. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Robbie's account as to how it's behaving now isn't how I understood the problem the first time. If this is in fact what is and was going on and you are smelling that much burnt electronics it sounds like there is an internal short between track or motor power and some other DCS power circuit. The symptom about the sound from the speaker sounding terrible is a good indication of this. This would point to one key thing to check but since it's being returned for a refund it's a moot point. 

As a note, if a slider screw is hanging too low it can make contact with (just brush against) the top of the opposing rails under it as it crosses over switches or crossovers and cause a brief short. It's not likely to be a problem but it is a possibility. I've only seen one slider screw sitting too low out of maybe 40.

The unfortunate thing you ran into with the Aristocraft Mallets is that from what I've heard they don't really fix the problem on the motorblocks, they slap new ones on there and send it back out. Unfortunately, every single Mallet and Mikado I've converted (total of 11 engines with 21 separate motorblocks), all 21 had quartering problems to one degree or another. 

Good luck.


Raymond


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

I have to disagree with Robbie (Brothers, ya know what I mean?) But I do not currently believe the locomotive is picking up power. When it stalls, the lights and sound cut out. Once it stalls, the only way to get the thing to move is to push it forward a few feet at which point it will resume running at the same speed I had it set for before it stalled. It will continue to do this pretty much everywhere except on exceptionally clean sections of track where it will run decently well, making four to six feet of track before stalling out again. 

And Nick, I actually have tried keeping fish, but had a small problem with water and my dad told me to get rid of the aquariums. You all should probably stay away from me, I'm extremely unlucky.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That definitely sounds like a power pickup issue and the smell being from overheated traces on the power transfer boards. What amp fuse were you running in the positive wire? A single Big Boy should only need a max of a 5 amp fuse. (Except under extreme test load conditions could run with a 3amp fuse and never blow it.) Do you have an amp meter that you were/could reference? Did the malfuntioning as far as erratic speed etc start after the power pickup problem started? 

At this point since there is only one switch with a plastic frog then the next most likely problem is a slider screw shorting. Would also suspect too that the malfunctions are now a result of the lack of power pickup. The bad sound though still stands out as a question. Just need someone knowledgeable to look it over and fix it and put polyfuses in it.

Don't feel so bad, if you've spent any time reading my repair page you can see how many problems and hours I've spent fixing problems from all the diff mfgs.







(like my $3500 USA Big Boy going up in smoke from some internal short after only 100ft of travel on it's first run.) The common thread to all of them is, once you get the problem causing you problems resolved, they all run reliably. 

I wouldn't want fish unless I could have an underwater model train running on the bottom.










Raymond


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

I talked to my parents some, and they think I should try and stick with this thing and get it sorted out. I have no fuses on the locomotive itself. I'm going to try and take it back to the MTH ASC on Tuesday (They aren't open tomorrow) and see if they can have another stab at it before I just say it needs to go back to MTH directly, which I suspect is probably what's going to happen anyway, but I'd prefer not to do that unless all else fails.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Good decision. Stick it out. 

Believe me I had my issues, worked with the powers at be and now I am really enjoying the benefits. Patience is key in this hobby as you know. Just read the bachman thread ! 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey TLS, 

The fuse I was just talking about would be one that you would put in-line in the positive wire between your Transformer/Power supply and the TIU/Track. (Not sure I asked but are you running with the TIU and wireless remote or just controlling the speed with track voltage?)

Here is the type of fuse I use: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSA-3/3-AMP-BLADE-FUSE/-/1.html 

If you aren't running with one I'd stop running any trains immediately and go to the auto parts store or Walmart and pickup a fuse holder and some fuses. A 3 amp fuse would be good for what you are doing now in test runs and would blow quickly the second the engine hit the short that it's encountering. This might also help you troubleshoot whether this is a track level issue(which is what I bet it is) or something in the engine. Do not rely on the transformer's circuit breaker as short protection.

As an FYI, this is what I use for Polyfuses (which are a self-resetting fuse) http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RXE-065/RESETTABLE-CIRCUIT-PROTECTOR-0.65-1.3-AMP/-/1.html with each having a 1.3 amp trip current I'd probably put three of these together in parallel to give you an effective 3.9amp trip current in each of the two track power wires they now have going from the front engine to the rear. I realize you won't be the one to do it but wanted to share it anyway in case someone will for you. 

If you have the desire and time, put the engine on a piece of test track and get down to where the slider meets the rail and note where each slider screw head is in height relation to the horizontal plane of the top of the two rails. If the screw has some distance then you are ok, if it looks like it might touch the top of a rail if one passed under it (as would happen on a switch) then that scew may need some adjustment to sit further up in the screw hole. 


Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yo "TLS"

Would you have a real name or has Ray pegged you as being TLS? 

My handle is GG


These are my initials... Gavin Graham

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with GG. If you think you can stick it out I'd do it as the other option is to esentially just give up on having a G scale Big Boy running on your layout. I've been where you are and it's not fun, but the positive side is if you do take any time looking into some of these issues at least in to some degree yourself you do stand to learn a little more about how your trains work and can sometimes gain a little more self-sufficience in taking care of issues on your own. 

Good luck and keep us posted.

I think I understood you guys are in St. Louis? I'm in Kansas City. I'd be glad to look at if you are coming this way and want to bring it with you. 


Raymond


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

First of all, my real name is John 

Second, the fuse between the power supply and the track is a 20amp. We don't come out to the Kansas City area very much, but I do appreciate the offer. If we end up coming to the show in August, I'll bring it, but I hope and pray that it's resolved by then, but if it's anything like the Aristo, I'll still be dealing with this in September.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey John, 

Go and get some 3 and 5 amp fuses and start with using the 3 amp ones. A three amp fuse should blow the second it hits that spot causing the shorts. If we are able to get together I should be able to eliminate the issue that's causing the shorts to begin with but just in case it will be good insurance for the future and there is really no going to be much need to run over 3 amps if you're just running the Big Boy. A 20amp fuse is really too big and isn't providing the protection you are needing in this case. (especially if the power supply is only rated at I think 10 amps?) I always try to run with a fuse that has say no more than 5 amps over what I'm drawing from all the engines I'm running on the layout at any given time. Another handy idea is to run with two fuse holders in the positive wire. If you need to go up a step on the fuses or down, you can put the next fuse you want to use in the other holder then pull the other you were using. That way you don't need to power your stuff down and can keep everything running as you have no break in power to the track.


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Still sound like to me that you guys have some serious trackwork problems esp. with track just slid together..you didn't even install the stock rail joiner screws??
You holding it together with rubber bands??...









Also you post "I am not sure that the PWC caused the damage to the board, it also could have been because of the pickup sliders shorting on a switch frog."
But in the same paragraph you post " All my frogs are unpowered, so that isn't a factor in this incident."
I'm confused









If you knew that there was a problem with your R3 switch then why even include it on the outside setup?? Were you trying to get the Big Boy to run thru a R3 switch??

As far as MTH Big Boys being really good at picking up power with shoddy trackwork..well that just ain't true. 

As far as operating on R3/4' Radius curves I personally wouldn't even attempt it with a $1,000.00+ locomotive..more like 5' - 10' radius curves...if you can afford the locomotive then you can afford proper track.

Good luck on sending back to the Columbia MD. MTH repair center as I've heard that the turn around time on warranty repair is like 8 - 12 weeks.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Considering that as of about 15 minutes ago, John was scheduled to meet with Rayman... 

The track is LGB and has been used for 15 years. There are no rail joiner screws on LGB track. 

The frogs are unpowered, but the pickup sliders are wide enough to zap on the opposing rail ACROSS THE FROG. For that reason we ripped out all the LGB turnouts. Didn't fix the problem. 

PWC was indeed used due to ignorance at first, but was turned off as soon as we found out about the issues associated with such. The repair made the engine work, but it quickly died again despite running linear with no turnouts. This implies to me that the repair failed; any other thoughts? 

Considering everything else we own and have ever owned(Aristo Pacific, U25B, FA1, USA GP38, LGB Mogul, Bachmann 2-8-0, K-27, Lionel 4-4-2, 0-6-0, 0-4-0) runs, I'd say it isn't a track issue. We have cleaned our track until a Bachmann 4-6-0 with pickup from nothing but the front axle will run; and yet the Big Boy has issues. If there was a way to fix it, I'd try it, but at this point it's not a track problem, it's a loco problem. And though I'm heading off to college to major in mechanical engineering in a few months, there is no way I feel confident tearing apart someone else's $1200 steam locomotive in an attempt to fix a problem I don't understand. 


EDIT: I forgot to add: We're running a 20 amp fuse in the Train Engineer due to a funky problem a few years back where any engine would blow it despite no track short. The TE is fine, we even tried another, but same problem persisted, so therefore we run 20 amp fuses. No problems until this. 

And regarding the fuse, the transformer(Aristo/Crest 10 amp--tried two different ones) never shows over 2 amps power, and usually stays well under 2.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Butt if it ever hits 20amps, you'll fry what ever is on the track, not a gamble i would take. do it rite and find out what issues you have and try to fix them, something doesnt sound correct.*


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Also DAM nice of Ray to go out of his way to help out you guys in person. Rays AAAA++++*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That is not normal behavior of a TE... you may have some other kind of load on/in the track, maybe an inductive load that shows up as a nasty surge when power is first applied. 

You should not require a 20 amp fuse. That is a situation I would work on to eliminate. 

Regards, Greg


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

I just tried a 10 amp in the newer TE(only used the old 1997 or whatever variant(two channel) with the 20amp) and it appears to work all right. 

I'll leave that plugged in for the time being. 

The older one seems to work at the moment, but then I haven't tried it with a 10 amp fuse since the last outdoor railroad.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

"any other thoughts? "

I have plenty..









A 10 amp fuse is still to high for a MTH loco, try 5 amps as 10 amps will fry the electronics before it trips..can't believe you had a 20 in there..no wonder the poor Big Boy was burning up...why not just use jumper cables from the car battery?? Just kiddng..









Dump the Aristo/Crest power supply as it's no good for MTH stuff..Buy a Bridgewerks.

My LGB track has railjoiner screws but I use railclamps...something you guys should invest in.

MTH locomotives are far more complicated than Lionel or Bachman stuff and the price shows it.

Why not re-bend your curves to say at least 5' radius..I'm sure that somebody or a club close to you would have a railbender that you could use.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

I would like to give a HUGE thanks to Rayman for fixing the Big Boy! It apparently had a blown connection on the rear driver set. I need to speak more with John to get more details, but that's where it stands at the moment. 

I would go 5' radius if we could. The issue at this point is the 12x20 foot barn the railroad is in--by the time the walls tilt in, it's 11'. I've tried, 5' radius will NOT fit. 4' is pretty tight as it is--Big Boy clears by 2-3 inches on each side. 

If I could afford Bridgewerks, I'd buy one; as it is, it appears Rayman has talked John into looking into the MTH DCS system---we shall see. 

Railclamps are unlikely due to 600 feet of track(most of it stored) = several thousand dollar investment when I'm going to be at college in two months. Not likely, and when any movement of the railroad is temporary(read: a day or two, most), I see that as a major hassle. Sorry, but we've survived so far.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Robbie,

It was a real pleasure to meet John and your dad in person today. 

The problem was again another blown trace in a different location. From what I could see it looked like it could have very well been slider screws which are now fixed. Only thing was that I ran it couple times over my switches before modification and it didn't blow the now newly installed fuses. It may just have been so close that it wasn't hitting every time. Also it may be a slider short but it's hard to believe it would be. At this point, the engine is now protected from further trace damage. Also did a number of other things to help ensure there are no other problems. At this point I think you guys will be good to go.

One thing I will clarify is in talking with John some he thought back and did say that they did in fact run the Big Boy with that switch in place for at least part of the time after they got it back from being repaired. So it's still the likely reason for the issue. 

The quartering was great, no hesitation because of that at all.

Hmmm.... I don't like what I'm reading about that Aristocraft power supply. If I was in your shoes, I would ditch it and get a Bridgewerks and be done with it. (I know you said money was tight) Remember that if you damage one or more engine electronics because of a faulty or cheap power supply you aren't saving any money in the long run. All I will say is just be careful with it.

For that deal John can get the TIU and remote for $220, I'd jump on that. That's all you need to finish off the system.

Was the first time to see 4 MTH Big Boys running on the layout today and what a sight. Got videos and photos and may post some later.

Thanks Nick.










Raymond


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Robbie, 
If you can't afford a Bridgewerks, then try getting an MRC "G" 10 amp transformer. They run anywhere from $160.00 to $180.00. I use one with my Annie that Ray converted to DCS. I also have an inline fuse holder between the transformer and the TIU. The MRC "G" puts out 24 volts DC max, has a built in 10 amp fuse and I run a 5 amp fuse in the fuse holder. I have also run my Aristo TE with it, no problems. Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth. 
Cliff


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Would a PH Hobbies transformer running through the TE help? I have one of those, dual 5 amp outputs, easily tripped circuit breaker inside. I don't know the model number, but there are two PH Hobbies transformers on the MTH recommended transformer list. I really don't want to buy a transformer for my brother's engine and therefore put off my AMS coaches by a year " align="absmiddle" border="0" /> Though the MRC may work, I just have to think about it a bit more. 

And bigger thanks to Rayman--from what I hear now, he virtually rebuilt the engine " align="absmiddle" border="0" />


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

Just wanted to add my own thoughts in here as well. 

First of all, just to second Robbie's comments, I cannot thank Rayman enough. He spent five hours repairing my engine, and ensuring that I won't have any more problems in the future, and then asked nothing in return. He is one of the most intelligent modelers I have ever met, and I can assure you that you won't meet a nicer person anywhere. 


Second, a Bridgewerks power supply is way out of our budget right now, I'm still recovering from the sticker shock after buying the Big Boy. It would be nice to upgrade to a new power supply in the future, but at this point, we're frankly pretty stuck with the Aristo, or the PH Hobbies that Robbie previously mentioned. I do think installing a smaller fuse, like a 5 amp, would not be a bad idea at all, as even with multi-engine lashups, we've never hit 2 amps. After using Rayman's DCS setup for a little while, I definitely agree that it's the way to go if you have an MTH engine, so a DCS setup is definitely in my future now.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, I have seen little "danger" from Aristo power supplies, and I've basically read every post on the Aristo and LSC and MLS and LSOL forums for the last 9 years. 

(Hey guys, I'm supporting Aristo here, not bashing) 

The problems they have is shutting down, not overvoltage. The Everest is worst. They have similar shutdown problems on one year's production of Li-Ion batteries. 

The TE itself can be flakey, and I would definitely avoid one that REQUIRES a 20 amp fuse. Many Aristo "people" will run 5 amp fuses. 

I'd say try the 5 amp and see how it goes. 

Regards, Greg


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Ran it tonight with the PH Hobbies and the TE(one of five....). Ran fine, just need to do some track cleaning(some of the track has been in storage for six years after being outside...it's desperate), but other than that it's fine. Runs great, completely silently. I think we have an LGB beater?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, another success story with Raymond in the middle of it. If only Aristo knew as much about their products and how to fix them as Raymond, they would have very few irritated customers. 

Good going Raymond! 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Great news Robbie.









If you decide to add the switch back and think the sliders may be swinging out far enough to cross short, then try adding the nylon washers to the first and fouth axles and see if that limits the play enough to keep from causing the problem. We've eliminated the slider screws as a possibility now so we're down to the sliders as the only remaining potential issues you could encounter with it. 

In the end it would be a good idea to do some initial checking at some point with the switches you have. (put the engine on the switch and slide the body and frame side to side to find the max distance of travel on each side and compare it to the potential areas of cross short. If you have a potential contact point, you can then see if the nylon washers would limit it enough. If not you can then look at reworking the sliders. In fact, if you want you could mail them to me and I can rework them if you ended up needing that, but I bet you won't. In the end I've never seen a switch that came anywhere close to creating a potential situation of a slider cross short due to it sliding out and striking an opposing rail. If you do check it let me know what you find as I'd be curious to hear. I should have told John to bring the switches with him.

With the modifications done so far, you should be able to run on anything except a 19.5 degree Aristocraft crossover, so you are pretty much there I think. Keep us posted.









And thank you very much John for the kind words. Meeting great folks like you and your dad is what really makes this hobby so great. You both are welcome back anytime and will look you guys up next time I'm in St. Louis. 


Raymond


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

There are no switches at the moment. The sliders do not, however, hit; the screws appear to have been the issue. The sliders miss on the frog every time.

I managed to dig up enough track to run a full-time circuit on the back driveway along with our railroad in the barn--I figure it's good enough for now. All we have to do to run the Big Boy is haul it outside with a transformer and some cars. I don't consider that to be too big of a deal. 

At the moment--I think we're fine! 

And yeah--Raymond is the TOC of MTH repair


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

So what do you do when you have 32lbs of raw drawbar pull put in front of you?....

You run it!

John's engine is in the lead position. This was a first to have 4 of these engines on the track at once and it was quite a sight to see.






















































Raymond


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ray that is realy impressive. Bet it sounded good too. Hope MTH makes another BB production run..............Jim


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Jim,

I was really neat to see. Figured I better capture the moment as you can't know now many more times I will see that many MTH Big Boys in one place again. They did sound fantastic. After hearing mine I think John's going to replace the speaker and go with some sort of open backed speaker enclosure like I did. 

One bit of clarification, in chatting with John some it sounds like the sliders actually are not able to make contact with an opposing and the theory at this time is that it was a slider screw hanging too low that was contacting the switch rail head. 


Raymond


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*SWEET Ray SWEET......... Cool







*


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Damm sweet.... 

Drooling over here !










gg 


Hello !!! where is the VIDEO !!!


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/30/2009 6:47 PM
Damm sweet.... 

Drooling over here !










gg 


Hello !!! where is the VIDEO !!!












I have no idea....


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

EDIT: Robbie beat me to it.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Video??? 

Ask an you shall receive.










Video #26

www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-2000kbs.wmv - 39MB - 2000kbs 
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-1000kbs.wmv - 22MB - 1000kbs
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-300kbs.wmv - 10MB - 300kbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp6B_fmNlyo&feature=channel&fmt=18 - YouTube HQ

Video #27

www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-2000kbs.wmv - 46mb - 2000kbs
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-1000kbs.wmv - 26mb - 1000kbs
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-300kbs.wmv - 12mb - 300kbs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi__f72EedU&fmt=18 - YouTube HQ


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't catch that Robbie posted a link until just now.









Here is a direct link in HQ in case you missed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3D6BHEv9rA&fmt=18


Raymond


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Doesn't seem fair that one should have 3 while this one has none! 

Really handsome on that elegant track, would look cramped on mine! 
John


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

One other thing I forgot to mention, for anyone looking to test for power pickup problems on this engine there is now one other step to do, check for electrical continuity (all on the rear engine set) between the rear inside wheel power pickup and the slider. Note, you will want to test the inside wheel power pickup with direct contact to the brush away and at the same time keep the brush from making contact with the driver because power will pass through the connecting rods to the front wheel power pickup which will give a false reading of ok continuity. This is because in John's case the trace burn was between the slider on the rear engine set and the last inside wheel power pickup.(which is the first time I've seen this) The remaining traces between the front engine set and the slider on the rear engine set were fine. Also, the service center repaired the actual traces and did not run jumper wires across the top of the frame as I've seen MTH do before. 

Also on the claim by the service center that there was a factory defect of the connection not being made on one of the traces, I can almost guarantee that the trace was in fact burned due to short because when I first inspected my first engine originally, I didn't see the trace burn and only found it through doing continuity checks between the different points. It burned in such a way that it was barely separated with no sign of overheating. Also, the places they fixed are the places that burn out in shorts.

Ok enough with the repair discussion, back to the videos.










Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Raymond, I just went to your site. Are you going to add pictures of where on the boards TLS's burned traces were? I'm sure it would help people in the future. 

Regards, Greg


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Four new vids: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG_LYzueYfw 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeN69-bYxYA 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj2Pzv_rJQg 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o4jbQuTbYM 

And a nighttime vid I already posted in the Beginners Forum: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_e0x76o9Xg 

Good stuff " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Oddly enough, when running at night, the firebox/ashpan glow shines on the track sliders and makes a sudden flicker that looks VERY much like a one inch spark. Scared me half to death the first time I saw it! 

And we CAN verify that a Big Boy can haul three dead LGB Moguls before wheelslip occurs. Hauled 20 freight cars(Bachmann/USA/LGB), five AMS 1:20.3 cars, and an AMS brass caboose with no issues.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

That's great that Raymond got your Big Boy straightened out and it sure beats waiting weeks for MTH Service to take a look at it not to mention the heartbreak of shipping damages.

Now that's awesome seeing 4 MTH Big Boys in action...









Big Boy dragging 3 LGB Moguls, now that would be a sight...


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## TheLordsServant (Jul 7, 2008)

Here are some photos I shot just to compare it with my Athearn N Scale Big Boy:


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

LOL, 

That thin thing on top of the bigboy what is it?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/01/2009 11:21 AM
LOL, 

That thin thing on top of the bigboy what is it? 











That first one is actually another MTH Big Boy on a shelf about 10 ft behind the one in the foreground.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By GG on 06/01/2009 11:21 AM 
LOL, 

That thin thing on top of the bigboy what is it? 


That first one is actually another MTH Big Boy on a shelf about 10 ft behind the one in the foreground. 




No....... I think you need to add water to get this pencil to swell...


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

On the subject of shorts on pointwork I use handmade switches usually near N° 8 with scale code 215 rail and since I have been running electrics for over twenty years I have made it a policy to reduce the distance between the two switch blades in order that there not be shorts between the wing rails when a wheel passes on the switch rails. This is easely done on handmade pointwork, I have one tenmille switch which I modified to this specification. This was a tremendous help when I passed to DCS and digital operation as the slightest short sends all the locos careening around at full steam ahead! You then run for the bull switch. If using commercial switches, I recomend that you check if the back of your wheels dont short out with the switch blades when your engine runs over the switch rail portions of your pointwork. you can probably check it visually without any current to prevent any damage from happening. Just push the wheelset towards the opposit rail from the switchblade you want to check and see if it touches it. If it does an electrical check will confirm it with a tester, which shouldn't damage your precious engine. I have been model railroading for over 50 years and beleive me trouble shooting engines and trackwork is part of the hobby, if you don't go for that (it's your right) then consider stamp collecting, less tiring on your nerves. The problem with DCS is that the electronic has become so sophisticated on the one hand and it is so interlocked with the engines that only experts can help you trouble shoot them. This is why I also thank Rayman for his fine analysis based on close observation and knowledge from experience, and the kind and thorough help he gives to those who want to solve a problem. I think MTH ought to build a monument to his work!


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