# more beginner questions



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have a live steamer but I keep hearing the call. It seems to me that if I want a vaguely American look and an inexpensive (under $1000) starter my choices are


Accucraft Forney (not out yet?)

Roundhouse Sammie 


Am I missing any? 



Maybe an Accucraft Ruby--I'm assuming the Forney is a ruby in different clothes--is that right? 

My layout has a lot of 8 foot (R#) curves, so that's another limiting factor


The rave reviews here for Roundhouse, coupled with the relatively strong dollar, seem to be making the Sammie a good choice. How long will it run on a full boiler and a full tank of gas? I'm really completely clueless


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

For a year and a half, I ran Sammie several times a week on a 5 x 8 tabletop with 2 foot radius curves. She pulled trains of 35 axles (halfway around the track) and running light, would run for 50 minutes under good conditions. Realistically, you can expect a good half an hour with a train behind her. 

Street prices on the Accucraft 0-6-0 seems to be very close to $1,000. Smaller scale but very nice runners and no serious issues from what I've seen. 

If you will fudge a little over $1,000, you can consider the Accucraft two cylinder Shays and the Accucraft 2-6-0. I love my Shay and regularly see a 2-6-0 run. Sweet engines, attractive, no problems. 

And above that? Keep your eye out for a used Roundhouse Fowler -- closer to $2,000 but very attractive, hard working, and plausible as a southern or Hawaian plantation engine. 

Good luck. It is a fine madness. Mike


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

making the Sammie a good choice. How long will it run on a full boiler and a full tank of gas? 


Lownote, as you have noticed, the general opinion is that the Roundhouse is a bullet-proof starter choice. The locos run for about 30 mins, +/- 5 or 10 depending on the load, temp, etc. It is fairly easy to add a 'Goodall' valve (inexpensive way to add water while the boiler is hot) and to reload the fuel, so you can do 2 or 3 runs before you have to stop and refill the steam oil. Even that can be done while hot. 

The Ruby is much more cantankerous and you'll find several threads about 'improving' it. It works out of the box, but if you like to fiddle (and learn while you fiddle) then the Ruby is a good choice. I've read that the Forney has larger cylinders but is otherwise a Ruby - if so, it might perform a little more pleasantly. 

If you can stretch to the $1,000 - $1,500 range, the choice is more open. The*AML USRA 0-6-0 SWITCHER* is getting good reviews.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't do it Mike!







Don't be hanging out with the old guys wearing towels in the steam bath! You'll burn all your fingertips off!









-Brian


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike - My first (and currently, only) LS engine is the Accucraft 2 Cyl Shay. It's amazingly easy to run and can be found for a little above $1k. Also, as Mr. Thornton notes, the AML 0-6-0 has gotten great reviews and is available at the $999 mark from several of the site's sponsors.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I like Pete's comment "learn while you fiddle". To me the Ruby is an excellent choice for a beginners engine because you really learn a lot just assembling one and getting it to run. For only 400 bucks, that leaves you with plenty of money to move on to bigger and better engines if you decide you like making steam,,, and if not, you don't really have that much invested and could easily sell the thing on ebay for what you paid for it as long as its not all busted up.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Richard,

I'll be the first but probably not the last to offer you $400 for your Ruby in "as-is" condition!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I would go with the Ruby as well. It's a great runner as is and basically bulletproof. There is a ton of big and little "jazz-up" things you can do with it. Check out Vance Bass' website on things you can do with a Ruby and the photo gallery: 


http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/steam/

Do a MLS search on Dave Hottman. He did several performance mods.


Dwight Ennis did a nifty article on how to add RC:

http://archive.mylargescale.com/articles/articles/ruby/ruby01.asp

Don't listen to the "sparkies" lownote. You will find a peaceful, inner zen with live steam


Bob


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

As you can see, she's not "as is" any more, but rather almost finished


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you all very much--some really great and very useful info


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## kfrankl3 (Feb 27, 2008)

I've gotta ruby and it's fantastic. I would recommend getting the kit version, it helps you to learn how it all gets put together, but you need to take your time. Then again I built mine in a night and a half (being a college student I pull crazy long nights all to often!). A great mod that I did was add cord boiler lagging, which I picked up from a article by Kevin Strong (if memory serves). Actually I now have the problem of it producing too much steam! 
PS Do you teach at GMU? I just noticed the domain name of your website.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Of the Loco's mentioned, only the Sammy will "Run like a ROUNDHOUSE". The Sammy is much heavier built, will run right out of the box with no tuning or major modifications and years from now will still be worth something if you decide to sell it. While the Ruby has rightfully earned its place in the steam world.......................it's just not close to being a ROUNDHOUSE Sammy.


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## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with the thoughts above - the Ruby is a great little starter steam loco and lends itself to customisation. A friend captured this picture of my ruby at a recent steamup.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just saw an new 2nd gen Aristo LS Mikado sell on ebay for $735.


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## kfrankl3 (Feb 27, 2008)

Wow! That is one heck of an impressive mod! Is the tender from a Accucraft mogul? But tell more. Also how did you attach the sandpipes?


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

As a previous owner of a Ruby, I have to agree with what has already been said about the Ruby being a good candidate for modifying. But the same can be said about the simple Roundhouse locomotives. I have done both. In either case, I recommend building a kit, either Ruby or one of the ones offered by Roundhouse. This way, you will learn a lot about how a steam locomotinve works and be able to make adjustments and repairs in the future (won't need to with a Roundhouse). A good kit choice that will leave you with an excellent running locomotive is the Roundhouse Billy kit. 
See the kits section at this site: http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/

You don't have to purchase and build a Billy kit all at once. You can first buy and build the chasis, then later purchase and build the boiler and finally purchase and build the cab and details. You can also purchase and buy a William tender kit if you want to add a tender. This way you spread out your payments and learn a great deal in the process. Here are pictures of my modified Billy with a William tender and a modified Ruby with a scratch built tender on a small LGB chasis.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd also start with a Ruby again. It was what got me hooked. I actually bought the Ida and this is how she looks today.

You cant go wrong with a Roundhouse. There are also quite a few unsed for sale including a Argyle Philly for like 700.00 along with a Mogul he did. the Old Star.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well thanks again everyone.

I'll be at the ECLSTS this weekend and I think I may be walking out with a Ruby if there's one there for sale. There's such a wealth of info available on it, and the price is hard to argue with. and then I keep thinking modifying it would b a lot of fun. 


As I understand it--and maybe I have this wrong--live steam engines are more likely to balk at steep grades than electric engines--is that right? I have a nasty grade on one loop of my layout and a more moderate but probably around 2% grade on another loop. Will it manage this kind of a grade, maybe with a few short, light cars?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

live steam engines are more likely to balk at steep grades 


Not really - live steamer engines are extemely powerful and tend to slip rather than 'balk'. 

However, a live steam engine needs more steam to get up a hill, as we all do! So you need to open the throttle more to get up, and hastily close it at the top or the open throttle will send the loco flying down the hill. 

A Ruby (or a Roundhouse starter loco) is manually controlled, and hence the problem with hills. You have to drive the engine up the hill and down the other side, which means adjusting the throttle while it is moving. Not impossible (especially when it stops due to lack of steam,) but you have to get to it. 

Most 'live steam' tracks open to other users are flat for that reason. Check out Mike Moore's 'Aikenback Live Steamers' in the layout room at ECLSTS ( and say hello to us.) 

The solution is radio control. Then you can open the throttle and close it without getting out of your garden bench or putting your beverage down.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, that explains it. Makes perfect sense--thank you. One reason I was interested in the Ruby is that you can buy a ready made RC kit for it.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Roundhouse also sells R/C kits for their locomotive kits, or a ready built one can have R/C installed before it's delivered. Adding R/C to most locomotives with your own parts is not difficult. The cab of a Ruby is quite small and adding R/C is more difficult than most other locomotives. As I said below, a Billy kit can be bought and built in stages and R/C can be stage four.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi lownote,
Since you seem to be leaning towards a Ruby, I'll through in my 2 cents worth of advice. I bought a Ruby kit, a pair of 1/2 inch cylinders from Royce, ( Quisenberry Station) an Accucraft valve assembly, and one Ruby axle. Add in a lot of brass and copper and I built these two;


















The first is a model of the first Mason Bogie (builders photo in background) and the second is a freelance railtruck. Maybe a little further than you want to go, but these were my first two locomotives of any type or scale. I have since purchased a second Ruby kit and have been collecting parts for the next project. There are so many nice Ruby bashes running around it is hard to keep up with them. The satisfaction of building one is very important to me. As an aside, I did put my name on the list for a Cricket from WESTMINSTER LOCOMOTIVES WORKS. This is an American made small locomotive that is a strong runner. A lot of the steamers I know have one, and I was blown away by what they would pull at Diamondhead this January. You can get a Ruby and a Cricket for only a little more than $1000. (I think) I must be honest and say that for me, money is my first consideration, and I have never seen a Roundhouse at a steamup that did not run perfectly. Like I said, 2 cents worth of advice!

redbeard AKA Larry Newman SA # 1956


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Those are cool!


The Roundhouse is really tempting. I'm just going to browse the ECLST, talk to the steamers. You guys mind idiot questions?


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be there both days. Look for me and we'll chat. I've owned a Ruby and two RH locomotives. I'll have my Billy there. By the way, there are no idiot questions when it comes to live steam. One thing about steamups is that's where you can learn a lot.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be there possibly with my 2nd Ruby project. 

You should also look into the Mogul, great runner and the new versions coming out have a sightglass and plenty of options for RC. Also pulls better then the Ruby. Used you should find one for say 1,000


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

*NOTHING RUNS LIKE A ROUNDHOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok, I believe it. But nothing runs like dollars out of my wallet either


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be there on Friday Hope to see you there.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, I believe it. But nothing runs like dollars out of my wallet either

This is a true statement and live steam can drain the wallet. However, sometimes if you start out with something better that might cost more up front you will end up with less frustration and more value in the end. Those that have seen my post's over the years have seen me go from an Accucraft basher to a Accucraft appreciator so I hope that my next comment will not start trouble. It is not meant too. The Ruby is a fine engine for it's price. Yes you can dress it up to be very pretty and add extras to it to make it run better and stronger (at additional cost) but it is still a very basic toy like engine. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!! On the other hand there is the Roundhouse Sammy that cost about 250 bucks more but is a more robust well made engine that will run exceptional right out of the box. You can dress it up too, and if you want to learn how she works open up a cylinder and lean all you want. You can also go to the Roundhouse web site and under their technical section find awesome cad type and exploded drawings of their cylinders, valve gear, boilers, chassis etc., and see how it all works and how to reset things if need be. IMHO, and I have already said that I appreciate all that Accucraft has done for the steam hobby..........the Sammy is well worth the extra money spent and if you ever do sell it you will get much more back off your original investment.


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## turbohvn (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike,

Sent you an email/PM

Royce


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 

I have several Roundhouse locomotives (including a Millie and a Sammie) and from a pure performance standpoint none can equal the Millie. It has the same size cylinders as all Roundhouse locomotives and the externally-fired boiler means it has a higher water capacity. It also has one of the largest gas tanks in the Roundhouse range. The manual tells you that you can top off the gas tank (after making sure the fire is out) once you get up steam pressure. Doing this will give you run times in the 1 Hour plus range. 

So don't overlook the Millie - the only current Roundhouse locomotive with an externally fired boiler. 

Bob


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

If you factor in that you don't buy a sound system, don't buy batteries/transformers/smoke generators they don't work out too bad, price wize. BUT, a steamer requires more attention, you seldom let them run as you do a 'sparkey'. Plus, they need more work/cleaning and they burn your fingers! But they are fun to run, when you have the time/energy for one.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

The folks making comments and suggestions related to Roundhouse engines are folks who give good advice and know the ins and outs of the live steam hobby. I suggest you look at (if you have not already done so) Subject: P-2 Diesel - Construction Log which contains information on Bob Pope's work. You will conclude he is a man worth listening to and a person whose advice should carry heavy weight in your decision making.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I made it up to York this morning and spent some the watching the steamers. Some conclusions:

That AML 0-6-0 is a really fine looking loco
The Aristo Mikado can be had for a good price and is very tempting--built in RC, carrying case. Hard to argue with that



Saw no roundhouse for sale but watched a very nice looking millie run 


I'm going back up tomorrow


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I ended up buying a Ruby. I just did not want to sink a lot of money into something that may not work. Also there were few other options at the show. 


And so far I think I made the right call--the Ruby ran just fine right out of the box, but on the track it has basically two speeds--stop, when it hits a grade, and rapidly accelerating to light speed till it derails on level track. I clearly have a lot of track work to do, but also I need to do some tweaking and tinkering. I got the Ruby 2, with the pressure valve, which seemed to be of little use as I could not get the fire to regulate much.




It's tinkering time!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome to the wold of LS. Not quite like a sparky. Diffidently will keep your attention. Lots of tinkering. Later RJD


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