# Aristo GP40 problems - Smoking motors & Dehabilitated wheels!



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Aristo GP40 problems - Smoking motors & Dehabilitated wheels! 
Ted Doskaris
January 19, 2010

I currently have 8 Aristo-Craft GP40 locos. I got most of them in 2008. I did get an additional Rock Island GP40, road number 395, late in 2009.

I like the GP40s as they are nicely detailed locomotives, and when I first operated them they ran well, were very quiet, and drew little current.

For an overall description, see "Aristo-Craft GP40 4 axle locomotive vignette" .

However, as time progressed problems started to arise. One of them developed total motor failures - which makes one wonder if and when some of the others may eventually do the same. 

Since I currently have about 50 various locos (48 Aristo), many are not run that much until some passing in time. Also, being distracted for the last few years on house construction projects has delayed train running some, too. 

For those GP40s I have with enough run time, they suffered from degraded wheel surfaces adversely affecting track power operation. But run time on these was only within about 100 laps on my under house layout - having then noticed wheel problems.

The following is a description of the problems:


*Motor block shorted power pickup wires:*

Rock Island GP40, road no. 392

The GP40 motor block has four wires with two black wires dedicated for power pickup originating from the wheels that contact the rails. The motor block wires pass through a rectangular slot in the loco's chassis. The chassis is plastic, but the interior upper part includes a long metal channel.









When the truck pivots, the motor block wires can rub on the metal edge of the slot within the upper part of the loco as shown below:









This resulted in smoke and melted insulation as the conductors within the two black wires apparently made contact with the metal that shorted the power picked up from the wheels. 









Ultimately the 10 amp fuse was blown in the track side Train Engineer receiver.









(By happenstance, the loco's poly fuses were of no protection as the truck with the shorted wires was not in their electrical path for this circumstance.)

Though the slot in the metal section is larger than the plastic slot - a good thing - it became evident that this is inadequate to prevent the wires from abrading as I found the metal edge to be rough to the touch. 
When the wires move back and forth against the edge as the loco truck pivots it's only a matter of time that they are sawed through. Depending on how the wires may be dressed, it would seem other locos would be similarly jeopardized.


















To prevent the wires from abrading again, I used duct tape wrapped over the edges of the slot as shown below:
A more professional fix may be to use something like "cat track" to surround the edges.










*Failed motors:*

I typically run two or three locos coupled together to pull a train on my layout.








In the case of two relatively new Aristo Rock Island GP40s, I had two of them running together pulling a train from time to time. 








Since I have about 50 locos, the run time on many of them is not particularly much even though I may have had some for a long time.

Anyway, the Rock Island loco previously described with the shorted power pickup wires eventually suffered from two failed motors in rapid succession. The motor blocks actually emitted smoke as they drew excessive current! 

At first impression one would think it had to do with the shorted power pick up wires, but this was not the case. If anything, shorting the power pickups would somewhat emulate what the over voltage protector IC provides in the way of protection by shunting current across the motors.

In this regard, the GP 40 includes a "surface mount" IC device (SMA33JC Transient Voltage Suppressor) in each motor block on the underside of a little circuit board. See below picture.








The SMA33 TVS device specs. include a nominal breakdown voltage of 33vdc and maximum surge current of about 8.5 amps. See below link for download of example Ltie-On Semiconductor company data sheet.
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-018/DSA00314743.pdf

Having electrically isolated the trucks from the rest of the loco, it became evident the motors had failed in of themselves. 
Shown below is the truck all by itself resting on a wood block with power connected along with oscilloscope probes on each of two electrical leads.









Shown below is an Aristo-Craft Train Controller with Pulse Width Control (PWC) that I purposely limited in its voltage output at about 10 volts.









The oscilloscope display below shows the PWC voltage peak to peak value, pulse duration and rate of occurrence.









The analog ammeter shown below can't follow the PWC waveform as seen on the 'scope - so it "smooths" its reading to steady amount of lesser value than what would be a peak current draw during the pulse time. Even so, the current reads an excessive 2.4 amps with the truck wheels suspended in air and slowly turning! 








If left in this condition for very long, the motor would become hot and start to smoke. 
I later isolated the motor all by itself, and it made no difference in its ill performance. 









As to why the motors failed, it seems the windings likely shorted, but what would have caused this to happen is undetermined at this time. The shorted power pick up leads previously described cannot cause the motors to fail. 
It's possible to speculate that the motors suffered from a manufacturing quality issue, were the wrong ones installed by the factory, or not made to the proper specifications. In any event, an incoming inspection process common to many companies would be expected to catch these issues before product reaches its customers.

To Aristo's credit, they sent a "call tag" for the motor blocks and returned motor blocks with working motors. Aristo indicated they had to order 2000 motors, so understandably it did take some waiting, but given a commitment to such quantities I must not be alone with failed motors.

*
**Wheel problems:*

GP40s within a 100 laps around my layout

The plating wears off the wheel treads very rapidly resulting in excessive electrical arcing and black carbon and / or copper oxide deposits on both the rail head and wheel tread surfaces.

































The below picture shows a close up example of the back deposits imbedded in the area of the wheel tread's pealed-off plating!









It got so bad that the loco operated in a jerky fashion and finally stalled as it became insulated from any power pickup from the rails!

To illustrate, I placed a machinist scale touching against the stalled loco's wheel and rail in an attempt to provide a current path ....








... and sparks resulted (shown below) as the loco jerked into operation for a split second. 









*
Removing wheels from an Aristo "prime mover" diesel type motor block.*

If you have a set of replacement wheels, the following describes an example method for properly removing the wheels.

For the GP40, the truck / motor block can be left in place as there is no need to remove it; however, the side frames must be removed. They are held in place by 3 small vertically located screws for each side frame. The tops of screws that attach to the motor block "fingers" can be seen in the below picture.








With the loco securely placed upside down, remove the 2 small screws in the lower part of the side frame. The upper most screw only needs to be backed out so it can be left in place. The side frames can then be withdrawn away from the motor block.

WARNING! When removing the wheel/s do not attempt to pry them away from the motor block as you will certainly damage the gear box half shaft retaining mechanism.[/b]
The wheels are held in place on a tapered axle hub with a small screw and external tooth lock washer.

A wheel puller should be used to remove the wheel/s. In so doing, do not completely remove the screw that retains the wheel but back it out some so as to leave somewhat of a gap.









Though there are various small wheel pullers made or self made ones, I use a Craftsman brand automotive battery terminal puller having spring loaded jaws that just happens to be ideal in size and shape for pulling the wheels.

By opening up the jaws just a little, the puller can be slid over the upper part of wheel then downward until it is about even with its center. 
(If you try to open the jaws all the way and approach the wheel head on, there is not enough room to do it this way.)








The Craftsman puller happens to have a conical like recess on the end of its rod / shank that is ideal for enveloping the head of the wheel hub's screw so when tightened down it won't slide off.









Once the wheels are removed, you can see how the axle hubs have a taper to them.










*Replacement Wheels*

Not all Aristo-Craft diesel wheels are the same. The example shown below on the left is the ART-29130 replacement wheel meant for the motor blocks used in the likes of the FA1, RS3, U25B, RDC, Eggeliner, etc. locos that have ball bearing axles. 
If you attempt to use this wheel on the GP40 or any other diesel "prime mover" era gear box loco (e.g. SD 45, Dash-9, E8/E9) it will wobble (along with changed back to back spacing) as the wheel differs in its hub taper and, also, does not include the ridge on its backside hub area. 

The intended Aristo brand replacement wheel to use on the GP40 appears to be part number P29355-22. The GP40 wheel is shown on the right in the below picture.









The Aristo "On-Line Store" link for the P29355-22 is shown below at the price of $12.00 for a single wheel for the diesel prime mover type locos.
https://www.aristocrafttrainstore.c...tock/itemdet.html?itemnum=P29355-22&conum=001
On the other hand, the "On-Line Store" link for the ART-29135 shown below is at price of $17.00 for a pair of wheels, and these are assumed to be the wheels for the diesel prime mover type locos. So the pair is the better value. 
https://www.aristocrafttrainstore.c...stock/itemdet.html?itemnum=ART29135&conum=001

Aristo has yet to publish an "Exploded Parts Diagram" for the GP40 that would show definitive part numbers, but the diagram for the SD45 that uses the same wheel (at $10.00 each) identifies it as ART-29355 - or is it P29355-22? What adds to the confusion is the Aristo parts diagram for the Dash-9 (that also uses the same wheel) describes part number ART-29355 for the entire 3 axle motor block assembly at $95.00.
Moreover, the "ARISTO- CRAFT TRAINS ON HAND AS OF 12-15-09" includes
"ART29355 MOTOR BLOCK 3 AXLE DIESEL (EA) 153.00". 
See below link.
http://www.aristocraft.com/instock/instock.pdf








So the ART-29355 must be the entire 3 axle motor block.

See below link for Aristo Technical Support, Exploded Parts Diagrams of Aristo locos.
http://www.aristocraft.com/techinfo/pdf/index.html
Note the disclaimer statement at the bottom of the "Technical Support" web page may explain all!
- Caveat Emptor.


*Comments:*

Since the wheels used on the Aristo GP40 two axle motor blocks are shared with Aristo's 3 axle motor block locos (SD45, Dash-9, E8/E9), one would expect them to share the same problems as previously described, too!

To wit, my SP SD45 has the plating significantly worn off some of its wheels - mostly on the rigid axle of each of its motor blocks. In this case the center axle's wheels.








Note that subsequent production runs of SD45s have the rigid axle moved to either end of the motor block with it finally being placed at the location nearest the pilot ends of the loco.









However, since the 3 axle motor blocks have more wheels available for power pickup from the track rails, these locos seem a bit more forgiving. That said, my SP SD45 has now become intermittent in operation, too. 
Though it took a much longer time for this unit to become dehabilitated compared to the GP40 examples, it may be that the Aristo factory wheel quality has degraded, too, since the SD45 was made in prior times.

This has become a significant dilemma to confront. Though Aristo may be able to supply replacement wheels, it seems using them would likely be no different in quality than what is on the GP40s as previously described! 
Moreover, at the present time aftermarket wheel suppliers such as NWSL and Gary Raymond no longer make / choose not to make / or don't make a diesel SD45 / GP 40 loco wheel.

I know that some folks will suggest using battery power as an alternative, but I don't choose to do this for operating multiple locos pulling long heavy trains; aside which, battery power is not germane to this discussion other than to ascertain if loco wheels have their plating worn off when not being used to conduct power from the track rails.

More to the point, it is a reasonable expectation that good wheel quality be a given for any manufacture to provide to its customers - particularly since track power products are the typical standard offering. In this regard, Aristo-Craft had considered making stainless steel wheels awhile back but evidentially decided not to do so.

-Ted


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Houston. We have a problem. Better spike that Kool Aide with some consciousness suppressant. 

Mr Polk is famous for saisfactorily fixing AC problems. Expect no less.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ted, thanks for the info and the heads up on the GP-40. I have two that I run on track and battery power. I'll be sure to correct the sharp edges when I have them open to install REVO and install by-pass wiring for battery MU operation. As far as the motors, if they go, they go back to AC. Thanks again Ted, that was alot of work for an excellent post. The GP-40 is a great little engine


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks so much for your post, it seems to comfirm what Nick said in another thread about these locos. I was on the fence about buying one and now you made up my mind i will stick with the GP-38s as they seem not to have any issues. By the way what is a bypass wire and why doesnt Aristocraft install them? And what are Kool aiders?
Thank you.
Johnn


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Great detailed report--well done and thank you


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ted, that was a great article on fixing Aristo diesels. For the pitting of the wheels might I suggest that you start using Kerosene to clean your track. It is non toxic and leaves a thin protective film on the track after cleaning and aids electrical contact. I have used it to clean HO gauge track as well as gauge one. I learned this trick from an 'old timer' in the hobby. It is mostly a forgotten fix now days. Modern cleaners leave the track dry so that you get arcing between the wheel and rail which causes the pitting you see on your wheels.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

That Aerolube track cleaner I described awhile back cleans track well and leaves a conductive film, no black powder since I started using it.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You can also use CFL 2-26, and excellent cleaner and lubricant. But I find with Kerosene or with 2-26 that they have a dramatic impact on wheel slippage--my layout has some stiff grades and the wheels slip a lot if I use either one


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnn,

It's a shame that the Aristo GP40 has this poor quality wheel issue as the loco is a beautiful model.
As to the motors, Aristo has commendably stood by them and replaced them. So I think anyone buying one should be taken care of here.

That said, I believe the profound problem is the wheel quality for those of us that use track power. At the present time we don't really have any good options.


-Ted


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## H-man (Jan 4, 2008)

Ted 

Great analysis of the issues with the GP40. Too bad as I was in the market and will wait awhile befor I make a purchase. With regard to the wheel plating it has been this way since I first purchased a FA1 back in the 90's with the Korean made locos. It seems that the plating makes no differance to the electrical pick-up but with the plating they tend to slip easier. I'm not sure what the metal compound the wheel is made of but I have hundreds of hours on the diesels and no dedgradation on electrical pick-up. I run 50 cars behind 2-3 of the old FAs and they are still runnen. I use a light oil on the track (Rail Zip)to keep thins moving and I have 1.5% grades with minimal slipping. 

I wouldn't worry about the plating. 

I wish they would just get rid of the plating altogether. 

Howard


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Johnn: Nick was privy to some of the early results of this investigation, which I gave to him under the agreement that he did not divulge everything until Ted was finished. So Nick's decision was influenced by what you see here. 

John and Jerry: clean track is great, but I do not believe that this would reduce or eliminate pitting, or loss of plating. This premature failure seems to be related to the quality of the plating. 

Howard: Plating does make a difference on electrical pickup in this case because the base metal is steel, which has even more sparking! Also, this allows rust in at least my humid environment, and that most definitely affects electrical-pickup. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if this is related to the problem George Schreyer described, with his USAT loco--very high current draw equals excessive wheel pitting?Haven't there been problems with high current draw with these? 


Aside from that I agree, better plating/wheel material would be good


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very well could be, the GP40 motors are unique to just this loco, and it is the first time Aristo used them. 

I sure wish that the base metal for the wheels was brass, but, no malice intended, steel is the cheapest thing here, and that is the bottom line. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Just to add my 2 cents worth, I've had plating problems on engine wheels made by several different manufacturers, it is not just an AristoCraft problem. The plating has worn off on several LGB, Bachmann, and USA Trains locomotives. 


So far I haven't detected any wear on my Accucraft locomotives, they may or may not be plated, I don't know. 


The wearing of the plating is a fact of life. If you run an engine a lot, you will wear through the plating. If the engine draws a lot of power there will be sparking and more pitting. I really noticed this on the original LGB Mallet (2085). It is also a problem with the Sumpter Valley Mallet. It seems to be more of a problem with two motored engines with smoke. The only single motor LGB engine that has this problem is the original Zillertal steam locomotive (2071). 


Chuck


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As always Ted excellent write up. I will be taking a look at the truck wiring going through the frame to make sure no bare spots are showing up. Later RJD


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice review Ted!
I will be selling off my Aristo loco's because they are only suitable for battery power.
My thoughts are dont' waste your time and money converting these to DCC or DCC sound.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Gee, I thought Aristo was idea for QSI Sound/DCC installation because of the plug N play............Jim


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This is way overstated. Aristo locos have issues, but I have three running very well on DCC--an RS-3, a Pacific, and a mikado converted to a consolidation. They are not perfect, but nothing is. They run fine with some tweaking. The RS-3 has run fine for me out of the box, using the PnP socket to install a QSI card. The socket is still in the Pacific, but was pulled out of the Mikado.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Lownote, now I'm a little confused. Awhile back it seamed like the DCC guys were pushing the QSI for sound and DCC control of Aristo loco's. Seamed like it would be an easy install. I have nothing against DCC, I have some DCS loco's and like the concept. I would think that loco's without plug N play would be more difficult due to all the wiring I would have to perform..............Jim


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like the same problem as the old REA FA uints. Aristo going back to thier old ways!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim 

I use QSI and DCC, but I'm not pushing it. It works well for me and I like it, but whether or not it works for someone else depends on a bunch of things. I've got QSI decoders in locos from LGB, Bachmann, USAT and Aristo. It works equally well in all of them, but the installation was a little different in all of them. 


Aristo has some quality control issues, no doubt about it. When the PnP socket works, it's really great. Sometimes the PnP socket works great, sometimes it has some little oddities--like you can't pick up power from the tender and the loco at the same time, unless you rewire a switch. On one of mine the polarity was reversed. But with my RS-3, the QSI board dropped in and started working right away. The GP-40 has the issues Ted mentioned, which I suspect are due to the motor pulling too much current. But Ted knows more than I do. 

I would especially worry about trying to actually use the track/battery switch on an aristo loco. But one or the other usually works well.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Lownote, Yes I have experienced some of those oddities but not quite like yours. I have smoked an RS-3 and U25B while running on a battery car. I have had good success with the GP-40, SD-45, Dash9, E8 and latest C-16 running off of track or battery power with no mods to wiring. The next test of how well they are wired is when they get REVO's installed. Is any body running radio controlled DCC from battery? Might try that next..............Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You could start a thread about that if you wanted Jim. 

Ted's point here is a specific loco, although I have encountered the same wheel issues on other Aristo locos. 

The thread has nothing to do with plug and play. 

Ted is not the only person who has encountered these kind of problems. He's probably the first person to do a thorough and objective, factual investigation. 

The fact that Aristo indicated they were going to order a large quantity of replacement motors speaks volumes. 

Remember these motors are unique to the GP40. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmm oddities????? That an interesting concept...... with all due respect Jim i like you and you have almost as many Aristo units as i due but oddities is not the word i would use. I refraned from commenting out of respect for you in another thread called truce but oddities is not what happening and im going too leave it THAT ................Most of you know my email And i will explain...................... Now im getting pissed again........... And as far as some one commenting on customer service and making things RITE welllllllllllllll your wrong again...........







No surprise....... drinky drink time......







Now see you all at Yorky I'l be the one with the *Big Fat Smilely face on That says Nicky................ I NEED TO GO TO A BAR AFTER THIS ONE..........







* But i do hope Ted was given what he was promised and not a bunch of *BS* like is the usual ARISTO BULL S-IT......... MAYBE MY BUDDIE AT THIS POINT FROM C.T. WILL CHIME IN AND TELL ME HE'S A KOOL AIDER? AND CRY SOME MORE? Im out i need a find some wild Blonde Chics........


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,

Are there any numbers or markings on the motor itself? Would be interesting to see if there was any information online about it. 

Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been on the side of this investigation, I don't own any, but have been tracking Ted's and other's problems. 

There were no manufacturer's model numbers, but Ted found some mabuchi specs that made some sense, I think Aristo did indicate they were mabuchi... Ted knows more on this one. 

I have theories about what happened to the motors, but still holding them in private until I get more info. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Jan 2010 08:01 PM 
I have been on the side of this investigation, I don't own any, but have been tracking Ted's and other's problems. 

There were no manufacturer's model numbers, but Ted found some mabuchi specs that made some sense, I think Aristo did indicate they were mabuchi... Ted knows more on this one. 

I have theories about what happened to the motors, but still holding them in private until I get more info. 

Regards, Greg 

Can you say junk?


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

[No message]


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## Dave H (Jan 5, 2008)

1) Would a NEW person to our hobby be happy, with ALL this trouble? 

2) Would a NEW person be willing to buy & fix a NEW toy? 

3) Would a NEW person stay in the hobby, with things like this happening? 

Please respond, Thanks


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 20 Jan 2010 07:31 PM 
Ted,

Are there any numbers or markings on the motor itself? Would be interesting to see if there was any information online about it. 

Mark


Mark, I did look. The failed Rock Island GP40, road number 392, rear truck motor was stamped with number KorR-74577261. It was the only number I could find on it.




















-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted, that looks like it might be possible that it a Z instead of a 7... Z4577261 ... loot at the small "tail" going to the right at the bottom of that letter, and the top seems a bit different from the other 7's. 

What do you think? 

Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg,

It looks like it could be a "Z", but when I had the motor and looked at it with a magnifying glass, I could not tell. 

The more distant picture suggests it is a "Z".
But either way, can you make sense of it?
Maybe that number has to do with a date or propitiatory drawing.

-Ted


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## sschaer (Jan 2, 2008)

i think it is a mabuchi rs-540sh. 

http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=rs_540rhsh 

as far as i remember this is a 3-pole motor , single wire, 27 winds. bronce bushings -> NO ball bearings !! 

you might consider replacing it with a 1x27 ball bearing motor from a r/c car. 

such as this : http://www.sheldonshobbies.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29_223&products_id=2394 
or this : http://www.sheldonshobbies.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29_223&products_id=2404


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

you are listing single ended motors .... the aristo motor is double ended.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

More likely than not, the motors are proprietary OEM offerings built specifically for Aristo. Even if the motor is physically an industry standard; it will be wound and equipped with worm gears or similar per Aristo specifications. What this means it not available on the open market. You can all but forget locating a replacement me thinks. 

Buhlers spec built motors for LGB, the short shaft version is 30x50x2.5mm, dual shaft. 

Iâ€™d go out on a limb and suggest Aristo gets the motor for the GP-40 right the second time around. Itâ€™s typical for multiple entities to be involved in bringing said products to market, most of the time components/sub-assemblies/assemblies are out sourced to OEM vendors and one OEM doesnâ€™t have a clue what the latter is doing as theyâ€™re only focused on providing there product as specified, how the parts/components inter-act with others is moot at this level and likely unknown. It all comes down to â€œResearch and Developmentâ€� Engineers spec stuff, development procures the bits and pieces and our role is testing it! 

Aristo â€" Crest â€" Cermag offers a minimal line of generic DC electric motors for hobby use which are believed to be of Mabuchi origin. 

Michael


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

Well this ant good. I have two of the first 40s delivered and one had a “bad” noise from the get go. I investigated it and found a black powdery substance in the motor block coming from the motor. Being a true believer in the discipline of *denial *I buttoned it up and have successfully ignored it so far. These are 2 of my favorite prime movers and just could not bear the thought of sending them back to Aristo and doing without them (yep - other one now too) for who knows how long. After reading this thread I am truly depressed now. Well I guess I will suck it up and send the geeps back to AC and hope for the best. I have no problems with the wheels as I am a battery dragger.
Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted, if you disconnect the motors and test the motor blocks separately, I believe you will find excessive current draw in the motors with the most "black powder" ... Another symptom is reduced rpm.. It's worth measuring the current draw. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

EDIT: 
Sorry, Response by the wrong Ted!

-Ted


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## vg3616084 (Aug 17, 2008)

I read this shaking my head! My wife purchased a BN GP40 for me for Christmas. I'm also awaiting the QSI board to stick in the unit. 

Haven't even ran mine yet, any suggestion on what I should do to try to curve these problems? I will fix the wires rubbing on the inside (I have to open it to put the board in). Any other suggestions? 

Plan on running this unite on DC and DCC. 

I guess in the end, if it all goes out, I always wanted a dummy unit. ;-) 

Vernon G 
BA, OK


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Vernon: 

There are many people who have not had the motor problem. Yet. I have a personal opinion that all the motors in the GP40's are the same, and once you get the motor to a certain temperature, the problem happens. 

But these are personal opinions, based on the information at hand. Not definite. If more people report the same problem, then my opinions will be "stronger". 

It could also be that only some of the motors have this problem. 

On the wheels, again, I find it hard to believe this is NOT a common situation. Nothing to do here but buy more wheels when the plating goes bad. What makes it go bad fastest is not clear, but logic would say heavy loads, curves would help. 

I have a number of Aristo locos, and, in my experience, the plating is substandard. It wears more quickly than other locos from other manufacturers that I run just as often on the same track with the same loads. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Vernon, 

Within a group of 7 GP 40s of mine, one GP 40 had the failed motors. (The GP 40 is a beautiful model, and I have since purchased an 8th one.) 
Greg's concerns about Aristo's GP40 motors not withstanding, that leaves you with about an 86% chance your loco is OK. Besides which, Aristo is known to back up their locos and will likely send you a "call tag" for it (or motor blocks) as they did with me and fix or exchange them as Aristo indicated they had to order 2000 motors. 

The wheel issue (poor quality plating rapidly coming off) is the main unresolved concern for track power users, such as myself. 

-Ted


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

The wheel problem can be solved with NWSL wheels. The make nickel-silver and stainless steel wheels. Also, they have movable center hubs that allow complete wheel gauge adjustment.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Both Ted and I called NWSL and were told unavailable. 

Nick S. just called them, and "got past" the woman that both Ted and I got, and talked to "Dave", apparently the owner. 

He has some in stock, but are nickle-plated brass. He told Nick he would make them. 

I'm measuring my wheels to be sure of what I am ordering and will call Dave tomorrow. 

This is good news, if it pans out. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Hope you are right Greg. As you know Joe here had call months ago and was told the same and still no wheels. If they are available I will order some also. Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Whew, given that my BNSF GP40 is currently my favored engine and most run, and reading this thread, I am feeling very thankful that I am powering my engine with battery power and that the motorblocks are the old fashioned FA1 type ball bearing trucks. Thankfully my trusty GP40 is running just great, and giving me nice long run times on my li-ion batteries! As I said at the beginning, "whew!!"

Ed


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Ed,

How is it that you refer to using the older type Aristo FA1 motor blocks in your GP40?
If you mean you replaced the GP 40 prime mover factory equipped motor blocks with them, what was your experience that caused you to do this? (Did your factory original motors fail, too?)


Your experience input is much appreciated; 

Thank you,

-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted he changed them out because of the current draw. Draining his batteries to quick. Bad side to battery. Later RJD


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I just check my GP 40 that I've had close to two years. I had very little wear on the wires as Ted had talked about. I did coat the wires with a rubber sealant on the edge of the opening just for safe measures.











I also cheched the wheels for wear and show very little of the plating coming off. Also the upper left rear wheel is a replacement wheel from AC Part NO ART 29130. It does not show any signs of wobbling when running.Also note the thinner flange. Back to back spacing is now correct. 











Here is the insulating coating show on the right that I use to coat the area where the truck wires come up through the frame. I will check my two remaining GP for any wear also.












This loco and a mate have been hard for the past two years. i run a max of 15 cars with one loco and have about a 1% grade. I've run this loco for hrs on end so far I'm the lucky guy. I also have all SS track which I contribute to the less whear on the wheels.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Ted, as RJ reported, my reason for changing out the motorblocks on my GP40 were power consumption. As far as I can tell, my factory supplied motors did not fail. When the power was off on them, there was no current draw, and their consumption was reasonably linear with voltage. I just didn't like the fact that they drew as much current as they did. I actually doubled my run time with a given set of batteries by changing out the motor blocks.

As an aside, I also found that for me the larger motor in the GP40 did not correspond to the ability to pull more cars. I found that my poly fuses would cut out if I got much over 20-25 cars. With the older style FA1 type trucks, I can still easily pull that many cars, and the poly fuses don't "blow". I am assuming this is because of the lower current draw.

Hope this answers your question.

Ed


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you ED and RJ, 

Ed, 

Thanks for clarification. 
Adding weight to the GP 40 should improve its pulling ability, so I would anticipate the effectiveness of the larger motor/s would then be of benefit. 

RJ, 

I believe you, but the ART-29130 wheels I have out of the bag wobbled when I attempted to put them on my Cotton Belt GP40 motor block axle. 
The bag of ART-29130 pair of wheels I have was purchased a few years ago. 

I also have a ball bearing type axle spare part I purchased a few years ago, too, meant for use in the FA1, RS3 etc. locos, and the ART-29130 wheel snugly fits on it OK. 

Why we have different results is to be investigated. 

-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted: most of my purchases have been in the past year so do not know if any changes could have been made. As I mentioned the same wheels worked fine and fit snug and align correctly. Yes these wheels were suppose to fit the FA and RDC cars. My measurements of wheels for the SD45,GP 40, -9, and E-8 all measure the same .


Also I'd take a look at your other AC locos such as if you have your SD45 -9 and E-8 to see if you are having the same wire rubbing issue because all these units have the same set up like the GP40 for the wires coming up throgh the frame and through the channel metal weight Mine have not shown the sever wire rub and deterioration as yours. Later RJD


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

" . . . .such as if you have your SD45 -9 and E-8 to see if you are having the same wire rubbing issue because all these units have the same set up like the GP40 for the wires coming up throgh the frame and through the channel metal weight Mine have not shown the sever wire rub and deterioration as yours.."

Hmmm your respective shortlines what diameter minimum on the curves That could be the issue re:"wire rub" ! Although I think you both run similiar diameter ??! 


Hmmmm maybe the radon gas/ unburned carbondioxide/ formaldehyde gases in the air of the undergrd shortline vs the fresh air of the georgian shortline may have something to do with the plating . . . okay okay maybe the wires softened up due to being in the undergrd 'air' .


re: "failure" of plating on wheels gad I should not waste my time proceeding with painting my 2-44Ts and 2-GP9s based on previously reported problems with plating failure of USATrains metal wheels too ! These are like 8 yrs olde stock ! Maybe best to sell based on well-documented reports of plating failure in their wheels toooo ! ya would think the manufacturers would not regress back to the early ages of GR when it comes to materials used . . . but unless they do what ? spectrogramblahblah of a sample unit per order to confirm correct materials used . . . 


BUT ehhhhh loook at the 1:1 auto industry this week, toyota recalling thousands of vehicles (back to '05) due to stuck gas pedals ! The media report stated an additional slap in the face regards THEIR quality control. Previous recall pedal catching on poorly designed floormat ! Thankfully in GR a failure in wheel tread or shorting wires or stuck throttle does not result in a significant other being run over (or into others property ) due to a stuck gas pedal or loss of control . . . 


Thanks Ted for starting this thread and the RJ for the report on your (respective shortline) engine components. 



doug c 


p.s. sorry i could not resist !


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Doug, 

My layout is very circuitous with its main line composed of 10 foot minimum diameter track. 
The longest straight section is 8 feet. When I built the layout to ease transitions, I did use larger diameter gradual lead in and outs to the 10 foot curve diameter sections in most places. Also, I put a short, straight track section between the few "S" bends there are. 

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I took the motor block out of my E8. I took off one wheel. I put a 29130/29131 wheel on the axle on the E8. The tapers are different and the wheel does not align on the taper.

We have measured the "prime mover" wheel and calculated the taper at 8 degrees. Ted and I measured and calculated the 29130/29131 taper at 4.5 degrees (but there could be a bit of error here).

That jives with my perception of the 29130 wheel "wobbling" on the axle of a prime mover gearbox.

I then put the screw in the center and tightened it, and the wheel appeared to align reasonably, but did not run the truck. While it may fit, it is touching the axle in only one small spot.

Thus the wheels on the "old style" 2 axle Aristo bricks are different from all the 3 axle and the GP40 bricks. 


Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as the wobbling on the prime mover brick it has not occurred on mine when I have used the 29130 wheels. It helps if the wheel is tighten correctly and not just to say there is a screw there to hold it. My wheels are tight enough when installed that they need to be pried off after removing the screw. That's where I think the difference is as seeing wheel wobble. I can nether ya or na the measurement of the taper on the axle but it's not that big a difference to cause a running problem with the loco. 

The comments that I made on Ted checking his locos for the wire wear are based on his curvature that he is running. I have 8 and 10 ft revers curves and have long runs in between so I do not see the problem as Ted has. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The following video is putting the 29130 wheel on a prime mover motor block.

You be the judge if you want to correct this looseness and lack of matching of taper with a screw. It's your decision. I believe RJ has his screws tightened enough to keep them on. It's not a good enough mechanical connection for me.




Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Hay you need to get your nails done not good for a close up?


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## ZachsPappaw (Jan 3, 2008)

This is non of my business, but just so no one misses the post, A/C is offering to pay for the return and the repair of the whole loco or the motor blocks, you will need to contact A/C for the info.

Hope this helps: Jeff


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

After carefully watching your video the wheel that you use to show the wobble or improper taper is not the same wheel which I used to replace mine. I notice the same thick flange as compared to the E-8 wheel so it is as you said a different part number than what I used. There fore it does not fit correctly as mine does. The wheels I used was ones to replace the traction tire wheels and is a different part no also. Later RJD


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 23 Jan 2010 10:40 AM 
After carefully watching your video the wheel that you use to show the wobble or improper taper is not the same wheel which I used to replace mine. I notice the same thick flange as compared to the E-8 wheel so it is as you said a different part number than what I used. There fore it does not fit correctly as mine does. The wheels I used was ones to replace the traction tire wheels and is a different part no also.

Yes Aristo has even said now they will be producing the SS wheels. However I may not see it in my life time. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I just saw that--Lewis says they will be making them but they will be very expensive--"sky high."


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, the price Aristo stock steel wheels with the "mystery" plating is about $8 each, the absolute cheapest I can find is $14.50 a pair. Navin quoted Ted $10 each. 

So, if the street price of the stock plated steel wheels is 7.50 - 8 bucks each, the stainless wheels have to be more... My guess is about $12 each... maybe $10 each absolute best case. 

I do not buy for a second putting only 4 good wheels on a 12 wheel diesel... as we all know you need all wheel pickup with the vagaries of frogs, wheel contact, etc. 

12 wheels at $12 each is $144, about half the price of a new loco. 

I think this is not a viable solution unless the cost is BELOW $8 a wheel. (If you go on the Aristo site, you can see that original prices on diesel wheels was $3 each). 

I will be interested in how this turns out, but I sure won't be holding my breath, and sidelining all my locos in anticipation of this solution. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree I sure am not going to do do just part of a loco when it comes to wheels. But I'd bulk at the price as mentioned and forgo the retro fit of wheels. As said you almost have invested in the price of a new loco. I just got to many that would need the mods and I have not won the Lottery yet. Later RJD


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Ted,
Very nice write up, along with some of the comments. 

I just got through pulling one of my SD-45 trucks off and two of my GP40's, along with 1 RS-3. I wonder if you have done any work to see if there is a difference in rail to engine motor winding resistance for a new set of wheels, verses one that has the plating worn off? To go with that, it would be interesting to see current draw for the same set of test. 


I have tested resistance from the wheel surface to the motor block connector and have seen no change for my GP40, or at least if there is, it's less than the measuring capability of my DVM. I have not tested from the track to the motor block. I'll venture out to the barn sometime in the next few days and bring in a section of track and run that test.Be interesting to see what the results are. 


I also compared the GP40 with my newest engine, which is a USA SD-40-2 that I picked up at York last Fall. I live in Northern Ohio, so that engine has only had at most 2 months of operation, maybe 20-30 hours maximum run time. The wheel platting wear on my USA was about the same as the GP-40, which is a year older. That surprised me. So the USA was actually worse off than the Aristo when you take into account the time difference and run time. 

Now my SD-45 platting is actually better than the GP40 and SD-40-2 and it's the oldest and one of my most run engines. I have no issues with it's performance, other than one of the trucks was noisy from the day I brought it home, or at least lets say that it had more noise than the other SD-5's that I have. Only 1 of the two trucks had the excess noise. Electrically, no issues, although after seeing your write up I'll take some extra precaution and insulate the motor feed through ports. I will probably use a product called Liquid Tape. I've used that many times for other things and it really holds up good. 


In the order of wear, here is the comparison of the engines that I have tested. Best to worst. 


RS-3 (Aristo)

SD-45 (Arisito)

GP-40 (Aristo)

SD-40-2 (USA) 


Has anyone found a source for the Aerolube that Lewis says should be used in the gear boxes for the Aristo engines? 



Regards,
Mark


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Mark,

As to which locos seem to be better or worse for wheel plating wear, I have one older production run Aristo SP RS3 that lost its wheels' plating very quickly a long time ago. So there seems to be inconsistency in wheel quality from one production run to another. It appears it all depends on whatever vendor the factory seems to source its wheels from at any given time.


As to the motors:

I have not done ohm meter resistance testing of track to wheels to motors. From an overall perspective, there are the loco's cables, connectors, circuit board traces, Poly fuses, a switch, and a jumper in the electrical path, too. 

Given the low resistance of the motor windings makes for a difficult test using the ohm meter that I have. If I were to do this I would be more inclined to use a controlled constant current source and measure for discernable voltage drops along the electrical paths to and from a motor. 
In order to do this, one of the trucks could be propped up from making moving wheel contact with the rails (motor free to turn) whilst the other truck remains on the rails but having one of its motor connections separated so the loco would not move down the track whilst taking measurements.


More with pictures about the GP40 failed motors:

Shown below are a couple of pictures depicting the rear failed motor.
Note what looks like excessive lubricant on the face of the motor with some evidence of carbon. It may be that the excessive lube managed to get inside the motor on its brushes. Whist this may cause the motor to form carbon deposits and operate poorly, I would not expect it to cause excessive current draw.








Note the hex drives meant to penetrate the gear boxes are on either end of the motor. Shown below is a view of the rear of the motor.








As can be seen In this example, there is less lubricant on the rear hex drive when compared to that of the front hex drive.

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, you are talking resistances in fractions of ohms, so it's no wonder you cannot measure it accurately with an ohmmeter. 

Realize that Ohms law is instrumental here... V = IR.... you need to measure resistance under load. The voltage drop is minuscule with minuscule current. The voltage drop UNDER load is when the problem can exhibit itself. 

Measure the voltage drop between the rail and the wheel under load and you will see measurable amounts, and then you can discriminate between good conductivity and poor conductivity. 

Regards, Greg


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Ted,
Very interesting picture of the motor. I would agree that at first glance it looks like possibly that the grease has migrated from the gear box to inside the motor. I wonder what the viscosity rating of the grease is and what operating temperatures the motor was subjected to? I live in Northern Ohio and do not have to worry about operating temperatures that would cause the grease to break down. Heck when it gets above 85, I'm camped out in front the air conditioner anyway. 

My idea on the wheel resistance was to measure from the track to the motor plug. The motor can be left out of this test since we are just interested in the effect of the plating wear and how it effects the current path from rail to motor connection. If the plating issue is going to be detrimental to the operation of the engine, it would show up as high resistance, or lets say higher resistance that a nice plated wheel. I emailed Lewis about the plating issue the other day on my GP-40 and he said " The plating is only for appearance and the copper inside conducts the electricity". I suspect the plating also reduces the corrosion. On an unplated wheel, corrosion is probably going to be the worst problem, and be detrimental to current flow. 

One thing I forgot to ask you. I noticed on one of your blow ups of the wheel that there seemed to be some black substance attached to the surface of the wheel. The first thing that came to mind was plastic. Do you know what it is?


Here is what I suspect, but most is just a guess on my part. 

1) The plating on the wheels actually raises the resistence in the current path to some very small degree. 
2) The plating is important to eliminate, or at least reduce the corrosion on the copper wheel surface, which would raise the resistance from rail to motor. 
3) The plating is a compromise as far as the electrical path integrity is concerned. Important, but detrimental.
4) The best electrical path would be without the plating, but corrosion would become a problem. 


I might be way out in left field, but it makes sense to me.


I went out to my garage to get my GP-40 yesterday. I was going to make some rail to motor connector resistance checks. Daaaaa, I forgot that I removed both my motor blocks and sent them into Aristo the day before yesterday. Since they are under warranty, I'm not going to take a chance and screw something up. I wanted them to take a look at them and see why they had more motor noise than my other Aristo engines. It might be the motor issue being discussed. Electrically and operationally I had no issues, just the amount of noise from the gear boxes. Or I suspect the gearboxes. 


Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Excellent Mark, I think you have all correct conclusions. 

Yes, the outside plating is normally something with the "priority" of corrosion/oxidation/rust resistance. The thicknesses of the plating and the wheel itself are so small that the resistance of the metal is really not important, no matter what it is. We are sure that the wheel is mild steel, and the first plating layer is copper. It's unclear what the final layer(s) are on the wheel. Typically the last layer is nickel, or like in a car, there is a layer of nickel and then one of chromium (chrome)... but, it only looks like one layer on the copper, and it is not identical in appearance to pure nickel. What it really is still speculative. 

In any case you have sifted down to the crux of the problem, the wheels, and worsening of the electrical path can only LESSEN the current draw, not increase it. 

It appears that the wheels only contribute to poor running due to poor conductivity. 

The much more troubling problem is the motors, where they draw excessive current and run more slowly. It does appear that some grease on this particular motor might have gotten inside, but again, that should have the result of LESS current, not more. 

It's indeed an interesting problem. I have had a theory since this first happened, and the theory is that there is breakdown of the insulation on the motor windings. Partially shorted coils, caused by insulation failure, is the only answer I can come up with that fits all the observed information on the motors. 

This has happened to other motors and devices with windings, and especially on motors from china. Instead of using high temperature enamel on the wires as insulation, a lower quality clear coating is used. It works for a while, and then breaks down, allowing "partial" shorting of the motor windings. With a lower resistance, the current draw will increase. With effectively fewer windings, the magnetic force will become less, thus explaining the slower rotational speed. 

Regards, Greg


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Has anyone measured how much current the GP-40 draws? I measured mine before I sent the trucks off to Aristo, and it was doing about 2 amps under load (smoke unit was off, lamps were on). My method for putting it under load was to just press down on the engine as it was running on the engine stand until it started to bog down. The power supply was putting out 15 volts under all test. My SD-45 drew about 2.45 amps under the same conditions. My SD-40-2 drew about 1.7 amps. I was expecting the SD-40-2 and the GP40 to draw about the same since they are both 2 motor engines, but maybe the USA uses smaller motors. I was at the time only interested in the amount of noise generated and not how much current they drew. The only reason for noting the current was a comment that was made by one of our local Revolution distributors. He made a comment that some USA trains have been pulling more than 5 amps and since the revolution is only rated for 5 amps, they have been having problems. The only way that I see that a SD-40-2 could draw 5 amps is if the smoke generator was on and they were controlling two engines on a single receiver. So I passed my current measurement onto a freind that has been curious about that and will shortly be purchasing some for his future layout. I'm still using the older 27mhz model and have no plans on changing in the near future. 

Hay, what else is there to do when it's 3 degrees outside and spring is still a ways off. 

Mark


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys, 

Interesting thread! I just wanted to throw this out there: While doing repairs on my friends Aristo locos, I've seen grease migrate to the motors where you wouldn't ordinarily see it as a result of overheating--the grease melts and flows/wicks everywhere. I've also seen heat transferred down the motor shaft to the worm gear and cause premature failure of the gear train due to melting. In fact on some of the early 3 axle replacement motor blocks when they used a plastic worm it caused the worm gear to fail. One last thing--I've seen suspiciously similar motor failures on some the of the LGB Buhler motors that were made in China--the brushes were perfect and I think it's a coating breakdown and you guys have mentioned. 

Keith


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RE: "...One thing I forgot to ask you. I noticed on one of your blow ups of the wheel that there seemed to be some black substance attached to the surface of the wheel. The first thing that came to mind was plastic. Do you know what it is?.." 



To answer Mark's question about what the debris is on the wheel: 

I believe it to be a combination of carbon and copper oxide (resulting from electrical arcing ) and dirt, etc. deposits picked up from the rail heads. (I have brass track on the under house layout and do not have any plastic wheels on the cars - only metal wheels.) 

The collection and retention of all this debris on the surface of the wheel tread is exacerbated by the vacated plating resulting in uneven surfaces or crevasses, either from the plating wearing away or pealing off. 

As the wheel surface worsens from all these factors, there is an increased tendency for more electrical arcing as less and less electrical contact area between wheel and rail is afforded, resulting in more deposits on both wheel and rail head - repeating the cycle of events until the loco completely stalls as it did in my environment. 

-Ted


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Ted,
Thanks for the info on the black wheel "Stuff". I also run brass track, about 900+ feet. I don't think I've ever seen that before. What I do see is every winter I bring all my engines in and put them on the test stand. I use a 'Q' tip and alcohol cleaner and while the wheels are turning I clean them. The 'Q' tip comes out black and it usualy takes 20-3 'Q' tip cleanings before I no longer pick up that deposit. What ever it's picking up is evenly distributed and undetectable with the eye. I never see anything accumulating, like you see, so I guess I'm lucky. 


What part of the country do you live? Maybe that has a bearing? 

How old were the wheels in your picture. Mine were about the same as yours, and my engine was purchased in the spring of 2008 at York. Still working ok, but the plating was worn, and of course the motor was noisy, or at least noisier than I thought it should be. 

Mark


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Keith,
Nice maintenance car. Did you kit bash it?


Maybe I should have pulled my motor housing apart to take a look at it before I shipped it off to Aristo. It would have been interested to see if there was grease migration issues. That can't be good on the motor windings. 
What part of the country do you live in? Wonder if the operating temperature has anything to do with it? I've taken my SD-45 and flipped it over after a hard days work to see if the motor on it gets hot and it's never been anything other than just luke warm to the touch. I have never done that test with the GP40. 


I would expect if the motor was hot to the touch, that could be contributing bit time to the grease migration. 


Mark


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mark, 

If you mean my avatar, that's an LGB RhB Tm2/2 diesel switcher with a Hiab crane kit added to the back of it. The styrene hiab kit was from Krick. 
I think when the motors start to develop the internal short that's when they overheat and melt the grease etc., because they start drawing way too much current. From the motors I've inspected after failure the bearings and brushes are fine, but they have the internal short. 

Keith


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By mgilger on 29 Jan 2010 09:51 AM 
Snip ... 
What part of the country do you live? Maybe that has a bearing? 
... Snip


Mark,

I live in San Mateo, California - a suburb of San Francisco. The climate here is very mild year 'round.

My layout is protected being it is under my house and in comparatively pristine condition compared to what I anticipate outdoor layouts may be subject to in the way of weather.

To get an idea of it, I wrote an article about how it was constructed; see, "*Under house suspended layout article*" 


-Ted


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Very nice. I've seen it before in my surfing. Sure beats the heat in the summer time. My basement is full of junk, so no room to do any railroading down there. I do have a work shop though. 
Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, on the subject of USAT motors, there is a long standing "tale" about the current they draw. 

I've researched how this came about, and it's from some tests that George Schreyer did long ago. Under a TOTALLY LOCKED ROTOR condition, certain (not all) USAT locos can draw large amounts of amperage. 

Over the years, this has been "amplified" by people just repeating the "tale" to be ALL USAT locos draw MORE current ALL the time. 

As you have found out, this is not true. Very few people can get to a point where you lock the drivetrain in a full stall condition... wheels slipping are not a full stall... you have to physically restrain the motor. 

I run many USAT locos and was paranoid at first that my decoders would not handle them.. that's when I started measuring on my own. 

Since I have removed the traction tires on all my USAT locos, it is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the motor, and thus draw these huge amounts of current. 

It's sort of like that parlor game where there is a line of people, and one person tells the "Story" to the person next to him and so on, and the final story is nowhere near the original one. 

Thought I'd bring these facts to light. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

When I checked my GP40s they would draw about 1amp at slow speed and 1 1/2 amp at fast then under load up to 4 amps. To date mine are still running good with no problems. I run all SS track and no more than 15 cars to a unit. I've run them steady for up to 5 hrs a day. guess we got some good ones. Later RJD


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,
I'll pass this onto my friend. I sold all my USA's several years back but have resently started picking up a few again. I think I now have 4 in the stable. 

Mark


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By mgilger on 29 Jan 2010 06:13 PM 
Greg,
I'll pass this onto my friend. I sold all my USA's several years back but have resently started picking up a few again. I think I now have 4 in the stable. 

Mark 




Smart Man.........


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Jan 2010 02:53 PM 
Mark, on the subject of USAT motors, there is a long standing "tale" about the current they draw.
I've researched how this came about, and it's from some tests that George Schreyer did long ago. Under a TOTALLY LOCKED ROTOR condition, certain (not all) USAT locos can draw large amounts of amperage. 

Over the years, this has been "amplified" by people just repeating the "tale" to be ALL USAT locos draw MORE current ALL the time. 

As you have found out, this is not true. Very few people can get to a point where you lock the drivetrain in a full stall condition... wheels slipping are not a full stall... you have to physically restrain the motor. 


Not denying what you are saying, but what about George's finding with the wheel pitting? He adds resistors to reduce the current draw, the pitting stops. I have two USAT locos and while I;'ve never measured the current draw, they seem to run just fine. George has a very well-detailed account on his website. What he describes--pitting/plating wear caused by high current draw--seems to apply to the GP 40s.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to derailing the topic, but the pitting is caused by the excessively low resistance, and it's short duration spikes. The average current is as presented here. It's a lot more complex issue than just putting a meter on the rails. George is, of course, correct, and so am I (as far as I can tell







). There is no conflict between what I have said and what George has said. 

You also have to understand the details of his power delivery system and his power supply. When you read all of that, you may understand. 

One of the major differences in George's situation and one of the major factors in the pitting he has seen that others have not is his (fairly unique) ability to deliver extremely high current for a short duration. If you want to understand more fully, please start a new thread, and I am sure George can clarify it for you, and if he does not, I do understand it well enough to explain it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

I agree Greg, He should start a new thread.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,

On your web site you refer to:

"On motors, use 2112-motor bearing lubricant, or act-2752 heavy duty bearing lubricant on larger motors.Use this heavier lube on bearings, side rods and valve gear." 

Is that what you use on the Aristo and USA gear boxes? 










Thanks,

Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I use both Hob-e-lube and Aero-car lubricants. Your reference on my site is preceeded by: "Here's some of the recommended Aero-car lubricants and their applications: " 

Recently I have used both products, I have both here at home right now. 

The heavy oil is becoming a favorite, it seems to cling better and keep dirt and dust out of valve gear. I know that people recommend lighter lubricants, but we have enough oomph in our motors that lower drag is not as important as keeping things lubed and free of moisture and dirt. I find that I only use the lighter lubes on the eccentric and related gear on steamers. 

I like the heavy bearing lube on USAT axles, better than grease, both the USAT axle tips, and the shafts "inside" the wheels. The plating on the axles is so smooth, that grease does not seem to "grab" and stick as well. I prefer the hob-e-lube in this application, it seems heavier. 

On gears, the NG gel (and also notice that the Atlas gel grease is the same) is the best I have found. It seems to cling to gears and not fly off. Nothing more disturbing than getting in a motor block and there is grease everywhere BUT the gears! 

The gel acts like a heavy oil under pressure, giving very good coverage, but when not in mesh, it thickens back up and clings. 

Expensive, but you don't need a lot because it stays on the gears. 

In other applications, like axle tips on rolling stock, I prefer moly grease on metal to metal, and graphite/moly powder on metal to plastic. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I don't know what brought this up on this thread, but again, if you want to continue on this topic, I again suggest a new thread, out of respect of all the work and research that Ted has done.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Since I have removed the traction tires on all my USAT locos, it is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the motor, and thus draw these huge amounts of current. 



You actually believe this?? 

So even if a gear breaks and jams the driveline or a pebble gets on the rails and acts like a wheel chock your USA motor won't stall all because you removed the traction tire equipped axles??


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, all kinds of things may happen, including a lightning bolt striking the loco, but I believe Greg was expressing the motor stall issue in the context of typical operation without debris being left on the tracks before a train is allowed to run. 

My first non Aristo loco purchases were two USAT SD70s last year precisely because they were newly offered without traction tires - affording wheel slip when under too much load - thereby, avoiding stalled motor/s. 

Anyway, I started this thread with respect to the Aristo GP 40 and its problems as I experience them. It was not at issue that the failed GP40 motors were a result of them being stalled. They went up in smoke of their own volition without the help of anything on the tracks or gear box jamming. 

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, and also it's impossible to protect from EVERY thing that can happen. 

Anyway, back to the topic... hopefully the next failed motors can be dissected and we can figure out what the failure mechanism is. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo 29130 now is $20 from Aristocraft. This means 4 are $80. For this amount you can get an eggliner from some dealers and have all the parts in the drive system. 

Or, go to nwsl and for $50 get a set of 8 wheels. see #2607-6 at NWSL


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

Thanks TED for the excellent article (i obviously missed it last jan. !! ) And thanks for the recent entry regards a cheaper wheel source ! 

Btw i personally have not acquired a gp-40 yet, but do have a couple gp-38s from usa trains which historically (and mentioned in this thread) have had similiar problems ! I've read thru a couple of G.S. website articles regards these concerns !

I shook my head at AC management when they rolled out the '40 with olde style composition wheels and sadly incandescent(?) lighting vs leds (which they installed in prevous engine units) . . . must have beeen a fire sale in a china parts factory of these olde components, the previous yr. !! 


imho,
doug c


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For all, Ted has done more investigation, and has also had another GP40 develop excessive current draw. He's detailed this in 2 videos.

The first details the current consumption, it is long, but shows the information unequivocally. 


The second video shows the current draw before and after motor replacement. 

Bottom line, this loco was sort of running ok, but drew 2 amps on rollers! After motor replacement, drew under one amp.

To draw a fine line, many of the GP40 motors are just plain defective, and will get worse over time once they start "hogging" current.


The USAT locos do NOT have defective motors, they draw more current, and have a high current draw when starting. You actually get better motor response in my opinion, but it's simple to add a 1 ohm resistor in series with the motors if the current draw is hard on your power supply, or you have excessive wheel pitting. 


Regards, Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

This is a great thread with a lot of info that I just paged through back to front. I'm trying to gain some history on how things got changed while I was away. Seems like there's some USA info mixed in that I'm after.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The missing videos are on my YouTube site, search for "gregeusa" 

Ted runs a mix of locos and pulls pretty heavy loads, many trains are 60 cars and the many curves multiply the load. 

Greg


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