# The tracks heaved...again.



## Darkrider (May 21, 2010)

Yup. That problem again. At least it's a small section of track. However, I didn't uncover the track this time, and my mom and I are beginning to doubt that using conduit under neath the tracks is worth the effort.

Should I change the tracks from anchored to free-floating?


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I"m pulling out my ladder stuff and go to free floating, as my inner loop is. I keep having heaves, despite driving the uprights down 3' in the ground.


----------



## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I think most of the frost heave problems depend on your local conditions. My railroad is for the most part raised. Only about 5% ever has any frost heave and that has only required some gentile foot pressure to put it back in place. I live in SW Michigan and we get plenty of snow and some below zero tempteratures every winter. Maybe it's the heavy snow that we get that keeps the frost from going down deep enough to cause problems and maybe it's my heavy clay rocky soil. Whatever, I'm happy. I don't think anyone can say what everyone needs to do. There are too many variables. We just need to have all the information and then make a decision and go for it. And if it doesn't work, well, I guess you would have to do something else. It would be best to talk to anyone in your area who has been successful. 
Bob


----------



## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

Forces of nature. Frost heave, gravity, downpours, hail, blistering temps, ice, and wind all contribute the challenges of "doing it in the dirt".







There are those who wonder how I can enjoy my trains in that kind of an environment, and they lurk in their basements, but on the days when the sun is shining and it's great to be outdoors, it's worth the efforts to keep it all together. Nature has re-engineered my layout every year, but just like the 1:1 RR's, there's maintenance to be done and it's just part of the regimen. My track floats on ballast, the earth settles, and each spring, my 250' of right-of-way looks more like an amusement park ride. A few hours or realignment and levelling is usually all it takes to get me in shape for the operating season. Wouldn't have it any other way!


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm curious as to the variations of builders of ladder roadbed. Why does it woek for some and not others. I know that there are several people on this site that only sink thier supports 18" - 24". I know they are in areas where frost is a problem, yet they have none. Then you have guys like Jerry who went plenty deep (at least thats what conventional wisdom says) and he has heave problems. I fully understand weather conditions are a variable in success, but what else is contributing? 

I ask because my engineering mind likes to wrap itself around problems like this and figure out if there is a solution.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm having similar issues with the conduit. I think I've narrowed down a cause at least in my case. As the track expands and contracts, if it's fairly firmly attached to the conduit, it flexes the conduit along with it. Since the conduit is round, as it flexes in the ground, the ballast on the side of it works its way under it, causing it to work up and out of the ground. My experimental solution has been to just tack the track down to the conduit every 10 to 15 feet or so--enough to give it some anchoring to the ground to combat errant feet/pets/stuff, but not near enough to where the expansion and contraction of the rails is transferred to the conduit. I did this about a month ago, and so far so good. Ask me again later this summer if this has proved successful. 

Later, 

K


----------



## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

There are all kinds of variables when putting posts in the ground. Frost heave is determined by all types of things, from moisture content, snowfall and temperature among many other things. When you put a post in the ground they "say" that a flat post is better, an angled post tends to heave more. Also untouched ground is supposed to heave less. But, the biggest thing is to get below the frost line. 

Terry


----------



## rocketrider (May 6, 2008)

I have had the garden railroad for 6 years in the wide ranging climate of central Illinois. All track is free floating in ballast, the only issue I have is some rail joints seperating in the spring. No heaving due to frost. I run battery and track power with little to no issues. I have run 3 times this spring and replaced 4 rail joints. Cleaned my brass track one time.


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Terry, 

I have also been told about the flat bottom on a post doesnt heave as often. But I could have sworn I saw Kevin using angle cut 2x2 as posts for his empire. Now he says he has some heave issues does that mean the theory is true?


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Waiting to see how my first attempt to run rails on the ground works out up here in the North Country. That entire section remains buried under nearly two feet of snow.


----------



## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jake3404 on 06 Apr 2011 10:58 AM 
Terry, 

I have also been told about the flat bottom on a post doesnt heave as often. But I could have sworn I saw Kevin using angle cut 2x2 as posts for his empire. Now he says he has some heave issues does that mean the theory is true? 
My entire raised line rests on treated 4 X 4s with flat bottoms anchored in concrete and buried two feet. This is country where the frost line can extend 6 to 12 feet below the surface. So far, NO apparent problems. Original line was built in 2001.


----------



## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I believe what Kevin was saying is not in reference to the post driven in to the ground but the length of conduit between. When the track that is attached at small intervals expands it also forces the conduit to expand with it. As the radius of a curve grows slightly due to the expansion it pushes the round conduit to the side. Since it is round it tries to climb out of the soil as the bottom moves over the "Ramp of earth " to the side of the round profile. I would imagine on straights a wiggle could develop and cause similar heave. To combat this Kevin has reduced the number of points where the track is attached allowing the track to float more on the top and not forcing the conduit to move sideways. 

Kevin, it's a very good theory and I think you could well be right. I''l be very interested in your results with the new method.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The problems with the ladder/conduit or any other post and attachement system are multifold. Any areas that have frost will be challenged unless the uprights are rooted i a concrete footing below the frost line. And it is not only the up and down but also the tilting. As the ground freezes it will have different pressures, e.g. if there is a rock in the soil of course the frost will push into the other direction, if there is a pole it will start leaning, if the next pole gets pressure from the other side you have already a big problem at your hands. Up/down, left right, forward, backward, sideways.....and our trains start to wobble....

If you mount the uprights in a concrete base below the frost line, level them 100% then this system might have a chance to last.

As far as pressure treated wood in the ground. I have read a lot of studies that it is retarding the rot but not eliminating the rot and in particular if it is full embedded into the soil the rot is accelerated.

In my eyes and my experience, as well as the epxerience of my customers, nothing beats the trench of crusher fine and loose track.


----------



## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

On the other hand, I took out my free-floating track and installed via the ladder method. I have a LOT less maintenance now.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

My plastic edging spikes that are about 6" long work up also. My concrete roadbed is fine. My wood signs work out also. I think it depends on how heavy stuff is?


----------



## railcandy (Dec 19, 2010)

Frost heaves??? That's why I lay track here on ballast in the far north... I just reballast every spring.. not as beautiful as concrete or linear road bed,, but works.

Perry the Pest


----------



## York Santa Fe (Feb 2, 2011)

For what its worth, I have had the ladder system for 6 years here in southern Maine. A good portion of my outside layout 400 feet. about 50% of it rests on flat garden ground, with the rest is elevated, in some cases up to 30 inches high. I used HDPE lumber, most of which has been glued with regular PVC cement. I used PVC electrical conduit tubing (2") for supports about every two feet. I cement a PVC cap to the bottom end of the tube and drill a 3/8" hole in the cap. I then drove a 12" length of 3/8" threaded or solid rod into the ground and slip the tube over the rod to anchor the post. When the ground freezes it pretty much heaves the entire ladder system about the same amount and when it thaws the entire ladder system settles back to it original level. To my way of thinking I do not understand why members are spending the time and effort to dig holes two to four feet deep to avoid heaving. Putting a foundations and footings below the frost line makes sense because the weight of the foundation and the structure is heavy enough to prevent side friction heaving. When a post be it wood or other material is set in the ground several feet deep there is a certain amount of side friction and the small amount of weight of the track system is not sufficient to keep the post from heaving. My layout has been in for 6 years, it heaves in the cold weather and settles back in the Spring and I have never had any problems, the layout remains level.


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Actually I was mistaken, it wasnt Kevin I was talking about. It was Bruce. Bruce, from your builders photos it looks like you are only putting the posts in the ground about 18" or so and are using treated wood 2x2's that you cut and angle on one end to drive it in the ground easier. Is that correct? 

On another note, I think York probably has it right. In buildings it is extremely critical to prevent heaving because the structure cant handle long term movement due to heaving. Such as cracking in sheetrock, crumbling concrete, cracks in brick work and many other things. Because our layouts are outside they are subjected to the whims of frost. The heaving is not a damaging, except for the occational wobble or derailment. I think the prudent thing to do is account for the possible movement and build into your ladder roadbed, a way to adjust height to re-level if needed.


----------



## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

No, I cut my posts at 90 degrees, so they are flat at the bottom. I doubt that many go down 18" - I would think that 12" or less is normal for my elevated section. Just a few inches on the in-ground stuff.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I use 3/8" rebar to anchor my stuff into the ground. Where I don't have a lot of fill dirt, I use 12" rebar, otherwise I use 24" rebar. With the clay soil we have out here, we get as much movement in the summer as the moisture expands the clay as we do in the winter with frost heave, so it makes no sense to worry about getting below the frost line. The ground's always moving a bit. I needed only to get deep enough into the clay to grab a firm hold. For the most part, the nylon ties I've been using to hold the PVC conduit to the rebar has worked fairly well. What I found I was getting was "scalloping" between the rebar posts where the conduit would work up out of the ballast. A few places it pulled the conduit above the rebar, but the rebar always stayed in place where it should. 

I think if I had it to do again, I'd use something other than the PVC conduit. I saw at the store the other day some plastic-ish trim pieces used to cap or join the plastic sheets of lattice people use for trellises, etc. I don't know how flexible that stuff is, but if this experiment doesn't work, I may relay the track with that underneath instead. It's a rectangular profile, so it should at the least combat the problem of the ballast pushing up from below. 

Later, 

K


----------



## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the floating method and so far my RR survived three winters the last two being harsh. My area (NW Jersey) gets a lot of frost heave but tends to be in certain areas. (areas with wetter ground) I think the reason why I dont get the frost heave is because my layout is in an area that drains water away fast. If I were to put my layout on the side of my house i think frost heave would have been a hudge issue because that area tends to heave. The moisture content in the ground takes a long time to drain down. 
What I like most about the floating method is the ease of being able to take up the track and relaying it somewhere else. 
I wonder how those with elevated gardens do with frost heave. my guess would be no issue since any water that goes in drains down fast.


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

So Kevin, 

You lay your track on PVC conduit, correct? Then attach the conduit to the rebar?


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, exactly. 



















The wood stakes were driven in every 5 feet to set the grade, then the PVC conduit set in place and tied to the rebar. Ballast laid even with the top of the PVC. The track was then screwed to the PVC conduit every 3 - 5 feet, which I think is proving too often. Then a final coating of ballast up level with the top of the ties. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Here in Maine the frost is just coming out of the ground. I have run my steamers on the track since I could dig though the snow to the rails this spring. I have had no problems to speak of. 

My track is free floating on 3/4" crushed stone covered with finer stuff which looks better. 

the only area where I have issues (which have been slight) is at trestles where the posts are sunk in the ground. Usually just a push when the ground thaws puts them right again.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I laid out a ladder roadbed last fall for a basic oval to be finished this month. We got snow earlier than normal and I gave up last fall. The ladder roadbed survived (mostly) just fine thru the winter just laid approximately in position. I used the 1 1/2 x 1/2 PVC trim boards sold at Homeless Despot for the sides and 1 1/2 square PVC trim boards cut to 1 1/2 for spacers. In my blissful ignorance I cut the whole stick of 1 1/2 square to size for short chunks, and left nothing longer for spliced joints. So when I needed to splice I gabbed some PT cutoffs that I had saved and cut them to size. Unfortunately I do not think I went long enough and the outside of the splices on the apex of the curve has pulled away from the splice blocks some. Not a tough repair really. If the weather holds out this week and provides a few hours of dry time I think I can get these repairs done and get some track down. The track is all clamped together in sections and all I need to do is cut the filler sections of straights to fit. Easier to type it than do it. 

At this point I have no plans for tieing the ladder to posts driven in. We'll see how the floating ladder concept works. 

Chas


----------



## York Santa Fe (Feb 2, 2011)

*A clever way to prevent frost heaving.* In talking to an old time Canadian friend he told me how they prevent posts on porches and decks from heaving. They dig holes down to below the frost line and install a piece of say 6" plastic pipe in the hole and cut it off a few inches above ground level and backfill the pipe. They then put 4" x 4" posts inside the 6" pipes down to the bottom of the hole to support the frame of the structure. When the ground freezes it will probably heave the 6" pipe due to side friction however the 4 x 4 will not heave because of the space between the pipe and the post there will be no side friction on the 4 x 4. With a porch or deck you are only talking 3 or 4 posts and because of the structural frame the posts will not sway. On a model railroad the inside space between the pipe and post could probably be filled with crushed stone to give rigidity to the post. Since the stone would drain any water it would probably work fine. If you are going down to below the frost line the addition of a piece of inexpensive PVC pipe would not add much to the overall cost of each support. Using the same principal smaller pipes could be utilized for support.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By York Santa Fe on 29 Apr 2011 10:58 PM 
*A clever way to prevent frost heaving.* In talking to an old time Canadian friend he told me how they prevent posts on porches and decks from heaving. They dig holes down to below the frost line and install a piece of say 6" plastic pipe in the hole and cut it off a few inches above ground level and backfill the pipe. They then put 4" x 4" posts inside the 6" pipes down to the bottom of the hole to support the frame of the structure. When the ground freezes it will probably heave the 6" pipe due to side friction however the 4 x 4 will not heave because of the space between the pipe and the post there will be no side friction on the 4 x 4. With a porch or deck you are only talking 3 or 4 posts and because of the structural frame the posts will not sway. On a model railroad the inside space between the pipe and post could probably be filled with crushed stone to give rigidity to the post. Since the stone would drain any water it would probably work fine. If you are going down to below the frost line the addition of a piece of inexpensive PVC pipe would not add much to the overall cost of each support. Using the same principal smaller pipes could be utilized for support. 

Interesting idea..but..the simple fact is that most of us in the "frost heave zones" simply cant dig holes 4-feet deep for every single post..
(not without hiring someone to do it, or renting power equipment..which can cost big bucks, which many simply dont have..) 

especially when you have one hundred or more posts..(arriving at 100 posts, or many more, is very easy, even for a moderately sized railroad) 


so yes, technically frost heave problems *can* be eliminated! 
that isnt in dispute..
the question for many is, how can I built my roadbed for $200, and minimize frost heave issues,

because I simply cant, or am unwilling, to spend $2,000 to build my roadbed..

Scot


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Exactly Scot...York again i think you have a great idea for preventing frost heave. 

Keeping my fingers crossed that I can minimize the frost heave with what I did on my railroad.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can rent a one-man hole borer (4" to 16") for about $61 per day here in San Diego. I could bore a lot of holes on one day. 

I don't see how that is expensive, since that's less than the cost of one Aristo freight car. 

Sounds like an idea that could be explored. 

Greg


----------

