# K4 first run



## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

The K4 arrived today and after the unpacking I oiled all the usual parts. Then it was on to the track and I added water, oil and gas and fired it up. Working alone was a bit difficult to keep the camera rolling but here it is on the maiden voyage......enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgcb...mp;list=UL


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Sal,
That looks like it is running real fine. Thanks for sharing. 
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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

A couple of observations. If you would turn the burner down you would get a much longer run. The safeties were going off constantly. And.......yellow narrow gauge cars behind a Pennsylvania K4? Blasphemy.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I would run those shamelessly behind my Mikado if that is all I had.


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

John....the safetys go off at 60lbs........however they start weeping at 40............and keep enough steam escaping while runnig to never make 60 lbs. When the engine is stopped it will make 60 pounds of steam. I an trying to work on the safetys but so far have been unable to unscrew the adjuster.
As for the yellow coaches , for the time being I'll have to use my imagination to create a string of PRR heavyweights.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

The K4s that I saw running on Saturday seemed to have the same problem. 
The safeties never seemed to stop leaking, but I never saw them actually 'blow off'! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I should add that when I tried to adjust one safety on my Royal Hudson, the top adjuster 'nut' split in two and I had to get a new safety valve that Cliff very kindly sent me, so be carful. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SalM on 04 Oct 2011 11:48 AM 
John....the safetys go off at 60lbs........however they start weeping at 40............and keep enough steam escaping while runnig to never make 60 lbs. When the engine is stopped it will make 60 pounds of steam. I an trying to work on the safetys but so far have been unable to unscrew the adjuster.
As for the yellow coaches , for the time being I'll have to use my imagination to create a string of PRR heavyweights.

I was just kidding you about the coaches of course. But on the safeties, I have replaced most all of my original Accucrafts with Sulphur Springs safeties. But now of course they are out of business. Last January at Diamondhead I met Jim Sanders of Wee Bee Loco. I had him make me a 'pop' safety for my Marklin and a friend of mine had several made for his Accucraft NG locos. They seem to work just fine although it may take a little adjustment at first after which they perform as they should. You can try him if you like. His email is [email protected]. 

I have never been happy with Accucraft safety valves as they are inaccurate and always weep and can't really be adjusted. For whatever reason they have chosen to not provide traditional 'pop' safety valves. They did offer some after market 'pop' safeties a few years ago and they were a failure, never get one.

They K4 is a beautiful engine. Hope you enjoy it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

These are the same issues I had noticed when running mine. The safetys never really stop weeping. I have removed them and cleaned them to no avail. Will look at replacing them. Late RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They seem to be a simple spring loaded valve with no hysteresis, like a true pop off valve, where it might open at 60, and close at 55, so it's not constantly weeping. 

Interesting, I wonder what difference in construction makes this happen. 

Regards, Greg


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

I spoke to Jim Sanders last night and he is in the process of making safetys for the K4 that look like the OEM. Also I extended the throttle shaft to extend just beyond the cab roof so you can more easily make regulator adjustment with the roof on. Probable not suited if you are going to do radio control.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

*Same problem with mine. Except the right one will not go over 35 PSI & the adjuster is burried to the bottom of the internal threads and unturnable. I don't know what pressure the left one opens at because the right one is set so low. Jim Sanders (WEEBEE) was here this week end steaming & took photos & measurements for making a POP similar looking to Accucrafts, except to his proven design. *


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I was able to adjust mine but it did nothing to prevent it from weeping. Got it to just a tad over 60psi. Later RJD


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

Any update on the Jim Sanders safeties?

-tnx,

Jeff 
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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

I ordered two of them and they arrived last week, I have yet to get to try them but I am planning to run my K4 this weekend. I will let you know how it runs, I expect that it will run [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

K4's squared..way to go.......with the exception of the safety valves mine has been a good running engine. I did extend the throttle shaft to go beyond the cab roof, that makes adjusting the pressure much easier. I also found that the black hose from the tender to the engine works just fine without the locking collar. This is a heavy engine so take care how you lift it for your sake and the engines detail parts. Did you order one of each color ?? Take a picture and post it of both first runs.........LOL


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Wait, Brittany, did you order two safety valves or two K4s? I interpreted your post as you ordered 2 safety valves.


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

I am very sorry for the confusion. I have ordered two safety valves not two K4s. I ordered the post war #1361 and it is beautiful, the detail is great. However, like you said it is a huge and heavy beast. I also am planning to run without the lock collar around the black tube as the collar seems to damage the black tube when it is screwed down tight. I also have to shorten up the lines from the engine to the tender because I am going to run mine on the closest coupling so that the engine and tender are very close together. This causes the lines to kink and stops the flow of the water.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I know this isn't a K4, but my Roundhouse Katie does have a _Jim Sanders safety valve._[/b] Listen to the nice crisp openings and closings...


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

I am a great fan of Summerlands chuffers for my gas fired locos and on receipt of my K4 sent notes and drawings to Chris Bird to build a unit for this engine. The following are notes and a clip I sent to Chris and Nigel when the chuffer arrived: 

"The K4 chuffer arrived on Monday and I got the chance to install it late yesterday. There is a short video attached which gives an indication of it’s performance. I think it is terrific…!! My little install tool is a scrap of brass tubing 10.3 mm dia., squared somewhat at one end just by pressing at 45 deg on a hard edge and flattened at the other end to use as a key. Eased onto the chuffer, it is easy to guide and screw into the exhaust pipe. I filed a small notch on the top of the chuffer to identify the opening. It can’t really be over tightened as the tubing keeps turning and it is lifted and turned off in the same direction. Centering is easily done by getting a fingernail on whichever edge needs to be centered and gently pushing through the firebox door on the chuff pipe in the opposite direction. The chuffer does sit high at 2mm below the edge of the chimney, but it is not a problem, and it is the effect that counts. With a dab of flat black paint it is barely noticeable and the sound is excellent. I apologize on the link for the lack of light but I had to try it and let you guys know. We have nothing but rain forecast for the next 4 days. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njk7PSGzOvQ&feature=email 

The only other note I would add is to avoid any urge to try and push the chuffer farther down the chimney. It is positioned where it is for a reason and the lateral exhaust pipe that it screws into is a 7mm brass pipe that is simply drilled and tapped. Damaging this pipe would require major repairs and is not necessary as finger tight is all that a chuffer needs. The chuffer iis quite wide at the top to compensate for a short lower chimney and the design truly works. 
The next clip is the K4 without chuffer running on my new steam track. You can hear it's minor natural chuff coming around the last curve. The night I was so eager to try the new chuffer, both of my flashlights died but I could hear the K4 perfectly at both ends of the loops and then relaxed to enjoy the run. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ_DIdlwe9A 

There are 5 of us with K4's in a local group that were iinterested in the chuffer but it was decided to build one and get it right, and Summerlands have certainly done that! The other 4 have now been ordered. 

Cheers, Neil.


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

Neil,

That's an amazing improvement over the out-of-the-box sound.

Are these generally available to those of us who (also) have one of the Accucraft K4s? ...and if, so how does one order one?

-tnx,

Jeff 
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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

...I too have ordered a set of safety valves from Jm Sanders. 


Many thanks for the pointers, guys!

-Jeff 
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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

Jeff, 
Definately available....!! You can order one directly from http://www.summerlands-chuffer.co.uk - the model no. is SCAC19 and it is referred to under 'Chuffer news'. They use PayPal International so just send them an email and you will get an invoice, it will be made and sent to you. 
Cheers, Neil.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Neil, 
Sounds great. Only thing I don't like about the mikado is that it is very quiet when running. I know that people say once a load is behind it that it will bark nicely, but I see your K4 had NO load behind it and I have seen other K4s with no load AND no chuff enhancer, and they still sounded better than the mikado. Oh well, guess I can always play a sound recording while watching it run.


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

Neil,

Thanks! I'll be placing an order!

-Jeff 
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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

Jeremiah, 
That's called 'Sierra sound', and it's for sparkies - they use smoke juice too....!! 
I'm sure you will get a nice effect with a load, and run early on a cold morning and the plume will be superb.... 
Cheers, Neil.


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## Chris B (Oct 18, 2009)

Jeremiah - which Mikado do you have - is it the Aristocraft one? 

Cheers
Chris


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Aster Mikado Chris. 

It chuffs, though it won't without a load behind it.


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## Chris B (Oct 18, 2009)

Posted By iceclimber on 30 Oct 2011 08:46 PM 
Aster Mikado Chris. 

It chuffs, though it won't without a load behind it. 
Ah Jeremiah, I understand now. A fine engine, but internally spirit fired, of course, so no possibility of enhancing the chuff. I have wondered whether a car could be braked, or have some sort of inertia flywheel to increase the load without having to have lots of rolling stock. I guess the problem with a brake would be heat at the speed these engines go. Somebody must have done it......

Cheers
Chris


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

The Mikado can actually go quite slow compared to some other Asters. I guess I can live with a quieter engine if I don't have a huge load behind it. At least it runs great.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris B on 31 Oct 2011 07:18 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 30 Oct 2011 08:46 PM 
Aster Mikado Chris. 

It chuffs, though it won't without a load behind it. 
Ah Jeremiah, I understand now. A fine engine, but internally spirit fired, of course, so no possibility of enhancing the chuff. I have wondered whether a car could be braked, or have some sort of inertia flywheel to increase the load without having to have lots of rolling stock. I guess the problem with a brake would be heat at the speed these engines go. Somebody must have done it......

Cheers
Chris 



Sure, I done it!









I tried the flywheel type load and found that although it did present a load for starting, once started it provided more initeria to keep the train moving when I wanted to stop.

So, I got an old "dial" telephone dial. The kind where you stick yer finger in a hole on the perimeter of a disk and rotate the disk to a small hook and pull your finger out to let a spring return the disk to the original position. I took out the centrifugal clutch that keeps the return rotation at a uniform rate and eventually figured out how to mount just that part on an old flat car I had. I 'HAPPENED' to have a gear that meshed with the gear on the clutch AND fit the axle on the car, but I suppose one could use a belt and fashion pulleys on an axle and the clutch shaft.

This design presents very little starting resistance to the engine. The clutch does not engage until it gets to a much higher RPM. Right now I cannot tell you the gearing sizes I used; it was all an experiment to see if it might work. It did better than I expected but there were some problems I had not fully anticipated. I had the clutch attached to only one axle (and very poorly attached at that!). I had to mount the clutch to the car truck directly so I didn't need to come up witth some sort of universal joint for the truck to steer under the car.

I painted a radial yellow stripe on the wheel ends on that truck so I could see if they remained in sync or if the clutch brake would cause the wheels to slip. WOW, did they ever slip!

When running slow the stripes would rotate at the same speed, showing that the clutch had not engaged very much. As I sped the train up the stripe on the the wheel without the clutch brake would become a blurr, but the wheel with the clutch brake kept turning very slowly (probaby 100RPM). I began to pile weights on that car... I have a brass plaque of my RR logo (about 3x8x1/4 in.) and a bunch of brass disks (paper weight logos for a defunct insurance company... about 2.5 in. diameter and 1/4 in. thick) and I had the plaque and a dozen of the disks on the car and that axle with the clutch brake on it never turned fast enough to lose track of the stripe. The dragging of the wheels on that axle wore the plastic wheels very quickly (and very uniformly!).

The drive to the clutch really needs to come from all the axle/wheels that can be ganged together. I started experimenting with ways to get both axles on one truck to be meshed together so all 4 wheels would present drag on the rail. It would be nice to get both axles on both trucks connected together so the one clutch brake would be driven by and apply equal braking to them all together.

I only have one video of the car in use, but the video was made to show off my (then) new bridge so the car is only seen from a poor vantage point to see the clutch and it was made before i painted the stripes on the wheels or put all the additional weights on the car. (The car does have a bicycle spedometer on it as another part of the experiment... basically I was working on a "dynamometer car".)

The video is on YouTube as: CMBY RY Gina Bridge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LO6tFg6T44

If you can get the video paused at about 0:39 you can see the clutch on the front of the flatcar and some of the brass weights (the plaque and 2 of the disks) on the car (but not the final amount I eventually put on it),but not enough detail to see what I actually did to attach it. You can, however, hear the chuffing the loco produced. Not exactly "deep throated" but it still "chuffed" more than with no load.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

BTW, you can do some things to enhance the chuff, but you must not interfere with the exhaust such that you lose the draft over the fire. A loud chuff usually indicates that there is too much turbulance in the pettycoat area of the stack and that indicates a loss of energy that should be being tranfered to the fire gases to draw them up through the stack and thus drawing fresh air into the bottom of the firebox to enhance the fire.


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## Chris B (Oct 18, 2009)

Many thanks for the explanation - a fascinating project and I can certainly hear the chuff! It is interesting what you say about sound being related to loss of eneryg for drawing the fire. The joy of the gas fired locos is that we have all that energy going spare....;-)
Cheers
Chris


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

So I got to run my K4 for the first time today. The safeties as stock did not work very well they lifted around 45psi and then never shut the whole time until the pressure was so low that the engine would barely limp with the 6 aristocraft heavyweights I had behind it. Thankfully however the pressure would stay high enough for the engine to run a steady 6 laps or so around the PLS track before needing to stop and build up pressure. Those six laps were great too the engine pulled the six coaches with no hesitance. The axle pump worked well even though I could have just pumped with the hand pump but I wanted to test the axle pump. The engine ran about two hours without any issues other than the stops for pressure. The engine really is beautiful and other than a few flaws the run was very satisfactory. The cylinder cocks were also a great addition and they worked very well. The only reason that I did not change to my WeeBee safety valves was that the boiler shell of my engine is slightly off alignment with the safeties therefore I could not get the stock ones out and the replacements in but a solution to this problem is already in the works. I am sure once I can get the new safeties in the engine will be a great performer. However has anyone else had this problem with their boiler shell, I'm just curious.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I keep bugging Accucraft to make some good adjustable safety valves. Hopefully Bing and Cliff will get it done.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

They don't really need to be "adjustable" as long as they work properly at a pressure that is safe for the boiler and provides enough pressure to operate the engine. From the descriptions I have read, it seems the safety valves as supplied by Accucraft are either not properly designed or poorly machined/constructed such that they are inconsistent as to what pressure they release and at what pressure they recover, and both values seem to be too low for proper operation of the engine in question.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

At about 38 seconds thru this Video by Ernie Noa you can see the WEEBEE Pop's working. This was running in Monticello, ILL Oct29th. I had him set mine at 60 PSI & they work excellent & it consumes less fuel & water. YES, the cyl cock leak has been fixed also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w1QjVdMyXs&NR=1


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Larry,
I am really not sure that I saw a good 'pop'!
The way I understand it is that a 'pop' safety allows the ball to lift enough to clear it's narrow shaft, so that it allows a great volume of pressure to dissipate very quickly.
This video of my Accucraft Royal Hudson demonstrates this well.
These Accucraft 'pop' safeties seem to work just fine, so I wonder 'why' the K4 ones do not!
Please note that I had repacked the wicks for the cold weather, but had made them TOO high, hence a little too much steam!
Also the other 'non' Accucraft safety is weeping. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

As can be seen, the safeties blow for 2, 3 or 4 seconds and then shut off. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Mark 

There are good reasons for a manufacturer of "run it out of the box" live steamers would have safeties that are "pre-set". The first is liability, borne of the assumption that an inexperienced individual may decide that if an engine works well at 40-50 PSIG, it will work much better at 70-80 PSIG. Since the small pressure gages we use give only a general approximation of the true working pressure, and most of us do not have the sort of test equipment used by G1MRA in the UK for certifying boilers, if you adjust the safeties, you only "sort of know" the actual pressure. 

In addition, some clubs [and states] have rules or legally enforceable regulations regarding maximum working pressures for miniature boilers. Sometimes it is a relationship between boiler volume and maximum operating pressure, sometimes a declared maximum based on application. 

If you don't like Accucraft's safeties, go buy some good replacements and get rid of the lesser quality product. If Bing is persuaded to make operator adjustable safeties, they will be of no better quality than their gas jets, which, IMHO, are not generally worth the scrap value of the brass.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 29 Oct 2011 09:00 PM 
Neil, 
Sounds great. Only thing I don't like about the mikado is that it is very quiet when running. I know that people say once a load is behind it that it will bark nicely, but I see your K4 had NO load behind it and I have seen other K4s with no load AND no chuff enhancer, and they still sounded better than the mikado. Oh well, guess I can always play a sound recording while watching it run. Mikado (stock Aster) video #1- true sound of the locomotive in action!



 
Video #2

 
Video #3 and good evening to all


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris B on 31 Oct 2011 07:18 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 30 Oct 2011 08:46 PM 
Aster Mikado Chris. 

It chuffs, though it won't without a load behind it. 
Ah Jeremiah, I understand now. A fine engine, but internally spirit fired, of course, so no possibility of enhancing the chuff. I have wondered whether a car could be braked, or have some sort of inertia flywheel to increase the load without having to have lots of rolling stock. I guess the problem with a brake would be heat at the speed these engines go. Somebody must have done it......

Cheers
Chris 



Chris,

If you google "site:mylargescale.com inertia car" you'll find a couple of threads at the top on this subject, including a few pictures.


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## Chris B (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks Pete - I will indeed Google it when I get a breathing space!
Cheers
Chris


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

Finally got a chance to run and shoot a clip of the K4 with chuffer to match my first clip. It gives a very good idea of what to expect. It is obvious to see a large change in temperature and humidity in one month. The improvement in sound is striking......! 
http://youtu.be/G2bRao-tNUc 

Cheers, Neil.


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

Neil,

Excellent comparison video. Now I really can't wait to install one in my K4!

-Jeff 
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