# Aristo track prices to jump



## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Found out today from Star Hobby that Aristo will be increasing their track prices and they will also be charging the dealers the cost of freight. This of course will be past on to us in the track cost...... HO is looking better every day. [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

I too heard this last Saturday at my LHS. He wasn't too happy about it (neither am I). I think he said up 15%. I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped the product. Pretty soon the only large scale hobby will be collecting shelf queens.










Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo is increasing prices across the board. The amount of merchandise to qualify for free shipping (to a dealer) has jumped from $1,500 to $2,500, but track is excluded from the free shipping no matter what the quantity. 

I sure wish I lived where my income was increasing 15-20% TWICE a year, like prices seem to be doing. 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I wasnt joking on the other thread when I said the way prices are going no one is going to be able to buy anything anyways. 

This is getting quite ridiculous. $25 bucks used to buy a box of 12 R1 curves, now the way its going you'll be hard pressed for the same price to buy 3 (THREE!) sections. 

I hate to be the doomsayer but I really dont think the hobby is going to survive these price rises, at least not as we currently know it. 

This is rapidly becoming something more like a 1% hobby, if you saw the crowds (or lack of) at the last SWGRS you'd understand the peril, this is a hobby, which has already been hit very hard by the economy, now pile on these ever increasing price rises across the board and you scare off more people, but when the price of the ONE THING that is primary to LSing, that we can't even get started without,*track*, keeps going up and up and makes an already expensive hobby so bloody expensive that no one in going to bother and just go buy a cheap RC plane, go to the smaller scales, or just go fishing. 

For the time being one can still offset the price increases by buying used track, but that can be spotty as not everything you may need may be for sale when you need it, some new track is always required. I know if I started today, I would be _seriously_ considering On30 instead.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, there are plenty of other companies willing to sell track. 

AML will probably wind up getting the lion's share of the brass 332 now. 

I have not seen all the exact price increases, but maybe the gap between stainless and brass will narrow (just a guess maybe). 

Let's see what happens, supposed to be in place April 1. 

Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I have changed my railroad plans so many times now I can't even keep count. The biggest problem for me was track prices. Now, since I went battery and use aluminum track, I'm laying and storing brand new track for less than $2.50 per foot, shipped. So many people have their investments in brass track it's hard to change over and I wouldn't recommend it for track power anyway. Still, my plans are scaled back quite a bit. Aluminum won't stay immune from price increases forever. Sounds like Sanda Kan is the one who's got everyone over the barrel.I'll still play with trains, I just buy less. I can't afford to buy everything I want and when I do buy, I try to buy from the clearance, closeout and blowout sales..I think it's time manufacturer's in this hobby got rid of the dang MAP thing and let the dealers sell for what they can get.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a bit of additional information about track. Apparently Kader (who owns Sanda Kan) makes the ties themselves in house, as does AML. But, the making of the rail is outsourced, and apparently this is where the variation is coming in. 

The way it has been explained to me, by several importers in several industries, is that there are "regions", kind of like very large towns, where certain things are made... all the metal working stuff (where rail is made) is from this one region. 

What I understand is that there's not a huge variation in pricing between the available manufacturers, since they really all "know" each other and are all "together" geographically. 

Just some info I found interesting. 

Greg


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy it's getting harder to decide what to spend my retirement money on, Gas, Food,or medicine. 
Glad I'm done train buying!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's unclear to me whether the increase is due to an increase in the raw costs of metals, or if it's an artifact of concentrating production in one place. It's surely true that rising world demand will raise costs, but there seem to be so many instances in which outsourcing production to China has been a problem. I wonder if this is one of those?


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

What I dont get is does aristo realise that by increasing track prices they are hurting themselves? I would think by making the track affordable to everyone, it would help in profits because more people will get into large scale and then buy the other stuff (rolling stocketc...) Especially since the track is the most important part of the RR. Im gla I have all the track I need.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By snowshoe on 13 Mar 2012 05:44 AM 
What I dont get is does aristo realise that by increasing track prices they are hurting themselves? I would think by making the track affordable to everyone, it would help in profits because more people will get into large scale and then buy the other stuff (rolling stocketc...) Especially since the track is the most important part of the RR. Im gla I have all the track I need. 



Aristo isnt raising track prices "just because they feel like it" or just to be greedy and make more money for themselves..
they are raising prices because they have to..because *their* cost to make the track is going up..
their margin is probably the same as it has always been..

you cant sell something for less than it costs you to make it..you wont stay in business doing that..
So its not really Aristos choice..its just the global market and global prices for metals that are driving prices..

Also, China used to be the place to have things made cheaply..not so much anymore..
as China's economy gets stronger, prices rise..soon global manufacturing will need to find the "next China" where workers will
work for 25 cents an hour, and move production there, where ever that might be..

Scot


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

In my life time it's been Japan, Taiwan, Korea,, Mexico, India, some former soviet bloc and now china is the biggest. Probably Africa next.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Well that's not surprising Groceries are up about 9% YTD, and gasoline is up about 35% in the past 6 months. But we're told by the media that inflation is not a problem...yet. ????


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

China is going thru growing pains that will render it less than satisfactory for many manufacturers bottom line. African nations historically are too politically unstable to support large corporate investment. India has the stability, technical savy and a large underemployed populace willing to work for the price of a good curry. India is where I see alot of general manufacturing and production moving to. The model train companies that are owned by Kader will remain in the PRC they'll jsut be more expensive, but alot of these companies that Kader severed agreements with are likely candidates for future moves to India or perhaps another Southeast asian nation thats just itching to join the world market party, Vietnam.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

The last company I worked for closed several factories in the 80's to move production to Mexico and or outsource to other manufacturers...that failed and they moved most of that production back to the states we were the last factory still operating when they went belly up in 2001. That was a costly mistake to them as in the end they could not outsource as cheaply as they had made the products in their own factories. 

The company I work for now is primarily a USA manufacturer but our sister company designs, markets, & produces knives from all over but more and more we are finding that it is actually cheaper to produce the same knives in the states. Now keep in mind these were both companies in NEW YORK STATE where the cost of doing business is some of the highest in the nation according to the media. 

There is merit to keeping manufacturing at home! 

Chas


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

One of the main reasons we won WWII was our ability to turn on the manufacturing capacity here and flat crank out the goods to our solders. Imagine that need now with everything in china. Good luck. 

But we all want low price goods and high wages. That's the rub.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

MR Reality Check here!! 

WHY does almost everyone in the large scale train hobby believe that the price of their TOYS should NOT RISE with inflation like everything else on the planet? 

I have commented previously on the price of track [specifically] from the late 1980s-1990s as being only about 15% less than the current price. 

HELLO?????


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

umm.... Aristo track is at least twice the price... you need to look at the list prices ... 

Now, even though I disagree with your number, I agree with your thought, yes for some reason everyone figures that their hobby should have prices frozen in history... 

But I do think prices have been artificially low because of China... now that people in China are demanding better living conditions and wages, things will go up sharply, but as already posted, India and Vietnam are poised to take over. 

Greg


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

With China raising the prices on everything maybe things will start coming back to the USA?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Geez I must be looking through a different lens, because if anything prices for my LGB trains (especially rolling stock) have gone down or held their own, and LGB flex track is the same as I paid for it 15 years ago. Years ago a full size RhB loco with sound went for about $1300 and it hasn't changed much from that today. Cars that were $200 are that or even less now. It seems to me the gap between list price and street price is what has continued to grow. Certainly there are exceptions but for me the cost has definitely held or gone down for what I'm buying. 

Keith


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

This is so sad to heard the prices raising of Aristo tracks. Greg was told right points. Most workers of manufacturer (Kader) had requested the reasonable salary and living condition in factory. So, the running cost of production was became higher and higher in now a days. In the meanwhile, the currency rate of RMB is so strong. So, the cost of production is becoming more difficult. Unless the brandname remove the production to other new countries, the selling prices could be reduced little bit.


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

Was it a couple yrs back that brass track jumped (up here) to $10/ft. from 6-7 at the majority of places !! What really ticked me off about the majority of retailers (i personally observed on shelves), they boosted ALL in stock track to at least the new $10/ft. ---old and still to arrive track stock ! So the majority of times it is not the manfacturers price increase that hurts it is twisted thinkin' (greed ?) of the retailers ! 


We hear your 'pain' . . . . . but consumers (ie Canadian, outside continental u.s.a.) of G-gauge product till say 2010 , had to acquire equipment at 1.5 times the going u.s. retail rate. Now that our (Cdn.) dollar is at a (realistic) par value, it is a more palatable level playing field ! With (albeit) all scales companies like BadgerAirBrush, Athearn, Bowser, SoundTraxx, Rapido, Zimo, etc. acknowledging their growth potential in Canada by exhibiting at shows like Canada's largest and best IASTS, http://www.supertrain.ca/


Future . . . with the long overdue increasing wages and improving working conditions (also impacts the factory owners bottom lines) resulting in the lack of low-cost consumer goods from asia/pacific rim countires how many more yrs. before the 'tipping point' is reached where potential work = jobs will return to the u.s.a. where "right to work" legislation has already been put into place in quite a few of the states. 


Probably a few more yrs 'cause i would think the factory workers on the other side of the ocean, are still making waaay less than wages earned at bottom tier fast food outlets, wallys, kmarts, etc located in the u.s.a. And the immediate owners of those offshore factories likely have both some leeway in their profit margin and they still can play the 'hardball' card with their existing frontline workers. 

Although ProgressRail aka CAT already did take 450 jobs (plant closure) from higher paid Cdn workers .... to a now legislated Indiana "right-to-work shop" ? http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ow-canada-let-caterpillar-strip-a-plant-clean http://www.progressrail.com/careers-muncie.asp .


ramblings, nite !


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## lc17smp (Nov 19, 2008)

If it helps anyone I listed some new Aristo Stainless track on ebay. I priced lower than anywhere I could find that has track in stock. I will ship for free to any mylargescale member. Just let me know. I would have posted it here first but I'm not first class.  Larry


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't understand why their is a higher quality product coming from Germany at a lower price, than from China. Piko needs to expand their product line.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's a communist plot! 
The German worker can read! Thus an efficient production line. 

John


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a short but interesting talk with Axel Tillman at ECLSTS yesterday. He told me that labor is not the issue in rail production, it is the materials. A round bar is placed in an extruding machine and out comes the rail. Therefore, the only way to make cheaper rail is to use cheaper (read inferior) material. 
Tom


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I kinda wonder if someone might attempt to market hollow brass rail, like Lionel's brass track but with UV stable ties. That would cut material cost with the caveat that it wouldn't be elephant proof. Either that or aluminum track might be more tempting for many in the years to come.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Since very little brass material is the rail head and a lot of material is in the base of the rail, perhaps a new rail could be made with only the expensive material being the rail head. 

Mfg costs could prohibit this and how does it stay together are another matter to consider.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right, the process of drawing the metal through the die would make the process way more expensive. You would need to somehow either mold a material that is a sandwich of brass and some cheaper material (which would most likely take a completely different process) or glue 2 components together after molding. 

Either way makes the manufacturing and the materials themselves more expensive. 

Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Buy code 250, less metal.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought rail was made from wire 332 (gauge of wire) heated, and ran through rollers to shape it into rail???


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You may be right Marty. Do you remember the big hoo-hah about Aristo SS rail rusting? The explanation given was as the stainless steel rod was drawn through the forming die, small amounts of metal got on the surface. I believe the reference to using dies to draw metal rods into the shape was on the Aristo forum. 

Perhaps someone knows the whole story? 

Greg


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## bicyclexc (Mar 31, 2010)

The government magages to do it with dimes and quarters. Each coin has 3 different layers.


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

The problem with extruding track is that you have as much waste as made product. You have a bar that is square to the largest shape of the rail. So there is alot of waste in the process. Even with the waste it is the cheapest way to make rail. In the back of my train store is a CNC machine shop that my father in law owns. He said that they cannot extrude rail as cheap as the chinese do.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember seeing photos of a machine with a coil of stock on the end and a string of rollers, etc. and cut of things , where did I see that?? man it was a long time again. I know that it was said , Its no big secret how rail is made. That was back when LGB was after Aristo over rail patents??


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

When I was a very young apprentice, maybe 1968, we took a tour through Martin-Marrietta's forge plant in Los Angeles. They were extruding an aluminum fuselage spar. I believe there were at least 5-7 stage dies set-up on the machine. The aluminum billet was about 18 inches square and about 4 feet long. A huge, horizontal ram backed up by about a 80-90 foot hydraulic piston slowly came up to this billet and very slowly "pushed" this billet into the dies. The entire building shook and groaned under the pressure. Then out the opposite end came a beautiful spar with ribs and all! The spar was about 75 feet long at that time! The spar then had to be sent to heat treat for straightening. There was STILL about 18 inches left to the length of the billet! All I remember was how badly fractured the rear end of that billet was! Tremendous amount of waste, but the billet was re-melted and used again. Fascinating process to watch!


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I began my journey into G land only last week. I'm doing a lot of research, and today, I stopped at the local Hobby Bench to price the product. I thought the price of track wasn't too bad, until the clerk told me the price on the box was for each individual piece and not the whole box. (Insert umpteen exclamation points here.) All of a sudden, I'm reevaluating my plans. I knew the locos were expensive, but there are cheaper ones to be had in the used market. My question is this: is there a cheaper way to go than AristoCraft track? I was thinking of battery power instead of rail power, and then maybe a cheaper track might be found. Anything would help, such as the smaller code rail. Is the 250 code rail a reasonable alternative? Or plastic? Any opinions are welcomed. 
Ken S.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aluminum track will be the cheapest. There is plastic track, but it's slippery and not really suited for grades. May be ok for yard tracks, or flat sidings. 

AML track is usually cheaper than Aristo... 

"flex" track will be cheaper than sectional track. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Code 250 rail is cheaper, but you have fewer suppliers. It's somewhat easier to bend if not well supported. Track prices are a shock!


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

So forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere (my excuse is I'm new here), however today I noticed that my two favourite mail-order shops (Train World Online and Wholesale Trains) have dramatically reduced their Aristocraft US brass track stocks. Can I assume this to be in protest of the new prices and/or freight charges? 

I also note that on the new Aristocraft website, the range also appears to be reduced. Is it because its a new website still under construction or are they reducing their product lines? 

Or is it something else completely?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo track is no longer the good deal it used to be, there's other competition. 

Aristo has been very low on stock for a while, out of SS rail, they expect to be back in stock in 5 months. 

It is a mess. 

Greg


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

That's not good news though fortunately I have pretty much completed my layout except for a spur line that I want to add so I can run trains down the fenceline to the front of the house and having used 10' curves on my layout I was hoping to utilise their medium radius switch to branch off that curve. Is there an equivalent switch from another manufacturer?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick: Try Train-Li for switches. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No one makes a 10 foot diameter. 

The LGB R3 switches are around 8 foot. 

The Train-Li switches don't match 10 foot either. 

I'd call around, someone will have one. 

Greg


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