# Welding Stainless Steel Track



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I was wondering if it's feasible to weld together sections of straight stainless steel track for the purpose of using it like flex track?.
I have acquired many cases of 4.5ft and 5ft Aristo craft stainless steel track, and was wanting to weld 2 or 3 sections together at a time to make my own flex rail. 
I would also use it for long straights to cut down on the number of clamps needed.
Has anyone ever tired this, if so how hard was it to do and how did it turn out.'

Thanks, Ron


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ron, 

It can be done with either a Mig or Tig. 

Tig welding is almost always the best process since spatter and slag are absent. Tig welding rods should be 308L for welding stainless. L is for low carbon because Carbon is bad when it comes to corrosion resistance in stainless. 

Myself I can weld it. But clamps are easier and faster. Yes they cost but do you ready want to spend the time welding?


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Was just a thought but the cost of a tig welder would far out pace the cost of clamps. 
I guess I'll just buy some doubles then bend away and then go back to single for final install. 

Thanks, Ron


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

It would be a great way to burn lots of money and time. A far better investment would be a top quality rail bender and rail clamps. I'm an experienced fitter and welder and I don't think I would bother with it. If you were to succede in getting a good fit up and weld I believe you would get kinks at the welds when you bent the rails from the stresses put into the rail from the welding process and from the different alloy due to the filler metal in the joint.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I was just trying to think outside of the box a little for some very long straights and sweeping curves I have planned for phase 2. 
It's clear that it's not a good idea, lol. 

Thanks for the info,Ron 
PS. I use the Train-Li dual rail bender and the Proclamps both of which work great.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd thought at one point of pre-bending and then getting them welded BUT if I ever wanted to "rebend" I may be in trouble not to mention pickup and re-laying longer than I can transport sections of rail. LEt's not forget expansion/contraction as well. 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Also, you WANT to have gaps in the rail to handle expansion and contraction. Making longer "solid" rails might cause much greater problems. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I have heard a lot of people say that once a rail clamp is tightened it will not move. The expansion would be taken up in the curves of floating road bed. With that in mind a gap would be rendered useless. I agree that welding would create other problems beyond expansion but based on the clamp not moving expansion would be a non issue ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rails will eventually move in rail clamps.. I do believe that it might be possible to stop it, but my experience with SS rail and SJ clamps says over time they will give a bit. 

All I am looking for is electrical conductivity, not trying to fight the laws of physics. 

Regards, Greg


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

In MY case I have a LOT of shorter pieces that I want to make longer. My fear being they will not bend properly, well, or at all after welding into one commmon mass. I'm talking going from a LOT of 6 inch pieces to an 8 foot piece. Then using clamps or sliding adapters like Marty has made. I think in the end that eventually I will try it. Simply becuase I have the pieces to try it with. 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you would do better welding and bending than trying a lot of clamps on the short sections. I think the bender could get things relatively smooth eventually, whereas the clamps will just hold the ends in alignment. 

Greg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

There is another alternative. Simply use the Aristocraft rail joiners for sections that do not need cutting and then solder a wire between the rails or to a bus under the tracks. 

Stan


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have removed all the screws from the bottom of the rail that holds the rail to the ties so it can't move. This seems to greatly reduce the effect of expanding and contracting rails. 

I think I have missed something in this thread. Why would want such permanent fixture? What about future maintenance? What about alterations? 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Uhh... JJ and Stan, please read the thread !! 

Stan: Stainless Steel rail... hello.... very hard to solder, and the question asked was not electrical pickup, it was joining 3 sections of 4.5 or 5 foot rails together to be more like 8' sections of flex track. 

JJ: this was not really about expansion in the ties... his goal was to consolidate shorter sections.. he is not soldering/welding 1/4 mile sections, so this is no more permanent, and has no extra maintenance that I can see, in fact fewer joints should be less maintenance. 


Greg 

as an aside... there seems to be a rash of old threads revived, not answering the question, not reading the thread, going off topic only after a few posts, what gives with MLS lately?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg; 

Perhaps everybody's "subconscious derails" became fully engaged. I know that mine seems to work at random. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg hit the nail on the head for my responses and posts to THIS thread. I have a bunch of shorter SS sections (6inch & 1 foot) that I'd rpefer to join permanently than buy hundreds of clamps for. Only out to about 8 foot sections though. So it is still somewhat easy to change and modify things and allow for expansion and contraction issues as well. 

Chas


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

It's often said that every new graduating engineer should have to spend some time in the field working with stainless steel, so they get an appreciation for what an absolute P.I.T.A. it is to work with. I would recommend you stick with clamps and have enough large curves in your layout to give the track room to float and expand/contract as it wants to. 

Keith


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What power are you going to use, Track or Battery? 

I ran the New River & Western on track power for quite a long time. I never solder joints. I use solderless conectors. Ran jumper from under the rail screw to the next one. Little dap of silacone and it ran for a long time that way. I never put the second screw in the aristo jointer which allowed the rail to do what it wanted. That was way before I met any of your guys and things got complicated 


PS Needless to say that this was a result of lots and lots of trial and error.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Dec 2010 08:08 PM 


JJ: this was not really about expansion in the ties... his goal was to consolidate shorter sections.. he is not soldering/welding 1/4 mile sections, so this is no more permanent, and has no extra maintenance that I can see, in fact fewer joints should be less maintenance. 


Greg 
________________________________________________________________________________________

Funny my take is he wants to weld them to facilitate bending. At the ends of rail you lose the fulcrum to bend when a roller leaves the rail surface. By welding (he is using clamps now) he hopes to have a cleaner turn without short straighter sections at the joints. 

The real question is; what kinds of problems will occur at the weld during bending? Not electrical and not expansion. I doubt if SS will kink like brass can. My sectional track is as secure as I can make it and it all expands and contracts as a unit. My temps range from 20 to 120 F.

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dang my edit was not added! 

I could be wrong (reread OP) but savings on clamps seemed to be an after thought, but I think it's still about bending 'his own flex' track ie; longer sections for a smoother bend. 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

John

The failure of your edit my have been my fault because I was editing your reply of 08 Dec 2010 10:04 AM because it was too wide. I would suggest that if you're going to separate your reply from the quote then use the hyphen (dash) instead of the underscore character. The reason being the hyphen (dash) will automatically wrap and not make the reply to wide.

The other thing, if you wish to ensure that your reply in a quoted reply is not included within the quoted part. After you click within the content area but before you begin typing your reply, use the keyboard shortcut key combination {Ctrl+End} (the 'End' key is usually located just above the cursor arrow keys).


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Dec 2010 08:08 PM 
Uhh... JJ and Stan, please read the thread !! 

Stan: Stainless Steel rail... hello.... very hard to solder, and the question asked was not electrical pickup, it was joining 3 sections of 4.5 or 5 foot rails together to be more like 8' sections of flex track. 

Greg 



Greg

I did indeed read the thread and my suggestion stands. It is extremely easy to solder Stainless Steel rail. I have several thousand feet of it installed and each section has feeders soldered to the bottom of the rail. In addition all my bridges have brass tie plates about every foot or so that are soldered to the rail. I also solder the frogs of the turnouts I build out of stainless steel rail so yes I do have a fair amount of experience soldering Stainless Steel rail.

You simply need a good flux and enough concentrated heat. I use a 10 amp resistor soldering station.

Stan


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks for the info, Stan, this stuff is good to know and might prove useful to those with SS or considering it. I assumed you're using TIG but then read "resistance soldering."


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stan, I've definitely been soldering things longer than you have. Not a boast, but over the 49 years I have been soldering, SS has NEVER been easy to solder, takes special flux and usually special solder. 

So, if your suggestion is to be helpful: (and I'd like to try your method that makes it "extremely easy") 

What flux are you using? Brand please. 

What solder are you using? unless you say any solder will do. 

You might also indicate how much a 10 amp resistive soldering station costs to the rest of the group here.... 

Most products are rated in watts not amps, so can you indicate the wattage of your unit? 

A quick perusal of products on Amazon.com (discount prices) comes up with $400-$500 to purchase one, of course I know Vance Bass long ago had an article about making your own. 

I will change my statement somewhat: "Given a $400 resistive soldering station, and the right flux, soldering small jumpers to SS rail is easy" 

BUT! The thread AGAIN is about joining rails... to have any kind of strength, you need a lap joint, and I doubt a small station could heat the ENTIRE JOINT to do this, BIG difference between soldering a jumper wire and a larger surface, like 3/4" of 332 rail. 

So please give your experience on soldering a joint this large, I don't think your 2 small probes will heat the entire surface of a 3/4" lap joint, and solder is not strong enough for a simple butt joint. 

(This is why the thread is titled WELDING SS track) 

Regards, Greg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Dec 2010 12:37 PM 
Stan, I've definitely been soldering things longer than you have. Not a boast, but over the 49 years I have been soldering, SS has NEVER been easy to solder, takes special flux and usually special solder. 

So, if your suggestion is to be helpful: (and I'd like to try your method that makes it "extremely easy") 

What flux are you using? Brand please. 

What solder are you using? unless you say any solder will do. 

You might also indicate how much a 10 amp resistive soldering station costs to the rest of the group here.... 

Most products are rated in watts not amps, so can you indicate the wattage of your unit? 

A quick perusal of products on Amazon.com (discount prices) comes up with $400-$500 to purchase one, of course I know Vance Bass long ago had an article about making your own. 

I will change my statement somewhat: "Given a $400 resistive soldering station, and the right flux, soldering small jumpers to SS rail is easy" 

BUT! The thread AGAIN is about joining rails... to have any kind of strength, you need a lap joint, and I doubt a small station could heat the ENTIRE JOINT to do this, BIG difference between soldering a jumper wire and a larger surface, like 3/4" of 332 rail. 

So please give your experience on soldering a joint this large, I don't think your 2 small probes will heat the entire surface of a 3/4" lap joint, and solder is not strong enough for a simple butt joint. 

(This is why the thread is titled WELDING SS track) 

Regards, Greg 

Greg

Indeed this thread is about joining rails, specifically Aristocraft 4.5' and 5' rails to form longer sections. My recommendation was for joints across uncut sections is to use AristoCraft joiners (and screws) and then solder a jumper between the sections. (similar in concept to the bonded wire the prototype uses across joiners). For cut sections use clamps. Using this method you can remove the joiner and wire and rebend the rail. True it is not welding but it answers the specific question asked with a different approach.

I use this approach on our railroad except I use larger feeders rather then jumpers between the rail sections.

As for soldering Stainless Steel rail, I use a dremel tool to clean the area to be soldered, and then use flux. I used to use common acid but switched to PBLs 'Stay-Brite' Acid Flux. Works much better. I use different solders for different purposes. For points I use the PBL 10K solder as i am looking for a strong joint for a small section. For wires I use electrical solder purchased at the local hardware store for the rail and Radio Shack solder for the wire.

I use a two step process. First I heat up the rail (I use position 3 on the unit as to much heat burns the flux) and add some solder to the rail. 
I then use a sponge to clean the remaining flux off the rail and place the solder tipped wire to the solder pad. A little heat and the bond is complete. I use the PBL larger unit which I purchased years ago. It is one of my most used tools.

The ground wire for the PBL HotTip unit I use is attached to a small vice which holds the rail. The positive wire goes to a probe with a carbon tip. This can heat up the Code 332 rail rather quickly.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Stan


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Absolutely Stan. I assume you use copper wire, not stainless? 

Thanks for the info, and I might get a resistance unit myself, and I find that over time (4-5 years) the clamps can increase in resistance. 

I'm also considering a way to spot weld a small strip of stainless to the webs of rails, and spot welding would not require flux. 

Right now, I'm experimenting with the long-term results of the No-Alox compound to see if that works for both anti-seizing of the SS screws and keeping conductivity up. 

I put a 8-10 amp load across the rails, and then use a voltmeter on either side of a clamp, If I get over .01 volt I clean the joint. I only have feeders every 20 or 30 feet and have sectional track. 

For the curious, the PBL units come in 200 and 300 watts, and the "kit" with the foot switch and tweezer probes are $530 and $570 respectively. 

Sorry for the temporary "derailment" guys! 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Indeed this thread is about joining rails, specifically Aristocraft 4.5' and 5' rails to form longer sections. My recommendation was for joints across uncut sections is to use AristoCraft joiners (and screws) and then solder a jumper between the sections. (similar in concept to the bonded wire the prototype uses across joiners). For cut sections use clamps. Using this method you can remove the joiner and wire and rebend the rail. True it is not welding but it answers the specific question asked with a different approach.

I use this approach on our railroad except I use larger feeders rather then jumpers between the rail sections.

As for soldering Stainless Steel rail, I use a dremel tool to clean the area to be soldered, and then use flux. I used to use common acid but switched to PBLs 'Stay-Brite' Acid Flux. Works much better. I use different solders for different purposes. For points I use the PBL 10K solder as i am looking for a strong joint for a small section. For wires I use electrical solder purchased at the local hardware store for the rail and Radio Shack solder for the wire.

I use a two step process. First I heat up the rail (I use position 3 on the unit as to much heat burns the flux) and add some solder to the rail. 
I then use a sponge to clean the remaining flux off the rail and place the solder tipped wire to the solder pad. A little heat and the bond is complete. I use the PBL larger unit which I purchased years ago. It is one of my most used tools.

The ground wire for the PBL HotTip unit I use is attached to a small vice which holds the rail. The positive wire goes to a probe with a carbon tip. This can heat up the Code 332 rail rather quickly.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Stan

I have been soldering since 5th grade I think 1958. So that makes about 52 or 53 years. I thought you could solder stainless steel because I have seen sinks in kitchens that were soldered

Well I thought they were soldered.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

John, 

What's your point? Are you saying SS can or can't be soldered? You have a lot of experience and it would be nice to hear you weigh in on this. 

Personally, I've always been confused about which solder, which flux and which heating method (torch, gun, resistance) to use. When I pose the question to others, their answer is to experiment. It would be extremely helpful to us novices if there was a list of solders, fluxes, metals, heating elements (4 variables) and which ones to use. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, maybe this should be a separate topic? 

Dave V


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

My understanding with soldering is that differing methods work for differing people based on experience levels. Can one of you guys who has done the decades of soldering comment if I'm way off base there or not? 

When I worked in a sheet metal shop we had various methods fo welding available but we did not do the really nice kitchen type or stainless work top type of welding and some of that is the clean up afterward. Wasn't needed for what we were doing (bank equipment). We spot welded CRS (Cold Rolled Steel) and MIG & TIG welded plate steel depending on the plate thickness and the type of weld required for the job at hand. I was working there when I got the bulk of short sections of track I ahve. Now this is SS track but is NOT Aristocrafts track. It is A-line or TDV brand (both names on the box) now imported by a store in Florida (H&R trains?) and was used extensively in Utah for a bit. The track I have is from before they imported it though. The reason i bring it up is that the connectors that come with the track are traditional formed slide on type BUT they have been spot welded from the top and bottom of the foot of the rail. They are pretty easy to pop off with a screw driver leaving the rail pretty much intact but destroying the connector. So spot welding the connectors with the correct equipment would be an option. not one I would use if you were going to bend the rails after the fact since the connectors would bend and you'd get kinks at the joints I think? Not being familiar with this type of soldered joint though I belive that without lapping the joint that a soldered joint would be weaker and would not bend but would rather tend to kink? Of course a welded joint may be too stiff and would give a "non-bent" appearance similar to not being able to run the bender over the joint or end of a piece of rail. Of course until I can test this it is all theory. Please do not wait for me to test it as it will be some time before I can do it and in the end it may never get tested by me simply because I do not have either the welding rigs at my disposal anymore nor a fancy resistance soldering unit. 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, experience counts. 

The funniest thing is normally the difference between success and failure is surface preparation and keeping the iron and parts clean and free from oxidation during the process. Some people just don't have the knack. Proper flux, solder, and heat application (which involves the soldering station and tip choice) are also factors of course. 

But this was about WELDING SS rail, not soldering in general. Alternatives to welding the SS rail together like trying to solder it involves at least a lap joint between the 2 pieces, and whether it is resistance soldering (which I don't believe makes sense here) or normal soldering, the question is trying to join lengths of Stainless Steel rail, not soldering in general, nor power jumpers. Clamps are also an alternative. 

The "flexibility" of the joint such that bending the rail may not be consistent through the joint is the concern also. 

Spot welding cannot cover a large enough area at a time to butt weld or lap weld in this case. Spot welding works well when at least one of the parts is thin, conformable metal, so the pressure of the spot welding tips can make that "connection" to do the welding. 

Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I'll try and TIG weld some SS track just for giggles and report back... 

Michael


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SE18 on 09 Dec 2010 05:27 AM 
John, 

What's your point? Are you saying SS can or can't be soldered? You have a lot of experience and it would be nice to hear you weigh in on this. 

Personally, I've always been confused about which solder, which flux and which heating method (torch, gun, resistance) to use. When I pose the question to others, their answer is to experiment. It would be extremely helpful to us novices if there was a list of solders, fluxes, metals, heating elements (4 variables) and which ones to use. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, maybe this should be a separate topic? 

Dave V 
Sorry if I misslead you. I didn't word that right. I thought the process was soemthing else other than solder. But I learned something new today. 

I am always amazed at what I find out here on MLS even with It's talking adds


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SteveC on 08 Dec 2010 10:29 AM 
John

The failure of your edit my have been my fault because I was editing your reply of 08 Dec 2010 10:04 AM because it was too wide. I would suggest that if you're going to separate your reply from the quote then use the hyphen (dash) instead of the underscore character. The reason being the hyphen (dash) will automatically wrap and not make the reply to wide.

The other thing, if you wish to ensure that your reply in a quoted reply is not included within the quoted part. After you click within the content area but before you begin typing your reply, use the keyboard shortcut key combination {Ctrl+End} (the 'End' key is usually located just above the cursor arrow keys).








----------------------

Thanks Steve.
I didn't realise that about underscore. Though I did try not to go all the way across... I'll do dashes should the need arise.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave, do start another topic on soldering, there's lots to be said and learned, and a number of people who know it very well. 

I think it would be a good topic to start in the Beginners forum, but anywhere would do. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Just keep the heat where it needs to be or good by ties. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 09 Dec 2010 08:09 AM 

I'll try and TIG weld some SS track just for giggles and report back... 

Michael 

TIG is one of the best and cleanest ways to weld SS. You should do fine.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Garret 

Yeap, I have no reservations as I have TIG welded lots of stainless, sheet metal and aluminum in my day. I'm guessing welding the top and bottom together with a little clean-up will yield the best results for all variables. And I'll pull a rail bender through the finished rail too. 

Michael


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 09 Dec 2010 06:28 PM 

Garret 

Yeap, I have no reservations as I have TIG welded lots of stainless, sheet metal and aluminum in my day. I'm guessing welding the top and bottom together with a little clean-up will yield the best results for all variables. And I'll pull a rail bender through the finished rail too. 

Michael 

Please post pictures of your progress.

We alll would like to see it done

JJ


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