# Coal Fired Ruby???



## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Is there anyone who could potentially convert an accucraft ruby from butane to coal. i am not sure yet if i want to do it. But i think if it can be done it may be a good option for me. All comments appreciated.
Thanks,
Brittany
PS: i am not very mechanically inclined so for me putting a boiler together is a challenge.


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## AzRob (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm still getting the hang of my butane-fired Ruby, so I'm not much help, but there are a couple out there. A YouTube search will bring up some videos - maybe try talking to them too. I'm sure someone will be along shortly who can help here too...


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Sure, there are a few places to find Coal fired Ruby boilers. Most are on the internet, or I'm sure someone would make one for you.

It can be fairly expensive and takes much more maintenace and preperation time between steam runs, but it can be much more fun. 

There are also other burner and boiler mods that can be done; for instance, you can have oil type boilers made too. Personally, I like the oil burners and modified gas burners best, for the gas burners require very little cleanning, and the oil burners can provide more smoke, less clean-up, and fuel costs - prep time (no need to grind up the coal into smaller bits.)

Its most likely cheaper to buy one on the internet, but if you can not find one, then I'll be glad to make one for you (or one of the other types too), but I should warn you that it is fairy expensive, for it takes many hours of hard work and good supplies to produce one. However, modified stock boilers take much less time (for water glasses, check valves etc.) 

Happy steaming,
Tom S.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom S.
Please elaborate on your insight:
"you can have oil type boilers made too. Personally, I like the oil burners and modified gas burners best, for the gas burners require very little cleanning, and the oil burners can provide more smoke, less clean-up, and fuel costs - prep time (no need to grind up the coal into smaller bits.)"
Some of us are familiar with alcohol based boiler setups that have used diesel fuel but modified gas burners for oil burners as to fuel flow and jet pressure would be a interesting development in gauge one live steam.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is pictures and videos of my coal fired ruby, the first video is when I got yelled at by david bailey for not having my tender + axle pumped hooked up - this little guy sure eats up a lot of water! (oops, noob at the time). It is a BLAST to run.
afinegan's djb coal fired ruby


I just cannibalized my current butane fired ruby (second run ruby(with the single eccentric in the middle) with enhancements - I am replacing the dual eccentrics which are worn out, very sloppy!), I moved the pistons, drive wheels, eccentrics to my coal fired ruby. My coal fired ruby had unacceptable clearances in the timing eccentrics so you couldn't time it correctally. How it ran at diamond last year I guess was kind of lucky in a sense lol. Now after the transplanting, it runs PERFECT!, I let it break in a bit and have been running it everyday since I did the transplanting (last Monday). The fire in the ruby is so small so its very finicky at times, wants to be run ONLY on welsh coal - broken down to bean size chunks. When I put in some high grade bituminous coal (makes alot of smoke, looks GREAT) it doesn't run as strongly as when I dont - so I have to add the smoking coal very limitly.

I will post pictures and video of my ruby soon since I don't have any recent video of it running after the transplanting. Tonight, I am going to put a load on her and see how well she fares. Sure looks like I will finally be able to put some weight behind her (before, she can only pull her own weight around - tender full of water and a significantly heavier boiler)


Now I have to find some new eccentrics for my old ruby because I want to get it back up and running, Wish I owned a lathe right about now....


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Hi Charles, 





Gas Burner mods: 





The gas burner mod that I like best actually makes the gas burner smaller and much more powerful. However, it does make it louder, but the real ones have a graul like sound to them anyway, so I like it. This mod takes the stock burner down to about 2 to 3 inches in length and only uses 3 burner cuts. It allows the burner's heat to be used more efficiently for the heat is not wasted as much by going directly into the smoke box as the stock one does. For even more power, I like to use two fuel tanks (propane/Butane mix, for no heat bath required) tubed together in one of the freight cars or tenders with a pressure gauge to make life easier, but its not required, for your single stock tank should do fine too. 





Oil type burner mods: 





This is where the major changes are needed. The boiler will need to be remade to accept a small fire box, so it looks more scale, and the burner can be wick type or atomizing type. I like the wick type best, for its less work- just set it and sit back and relax. The wick tubes work much like Alcohol burners, only they have larger holes to accept diesel oil or lighter fluid. Lighter fluid smells better, but less smoke. Diesel has the most smoke effect and is cheap. The burner can still accept alcohol, so you can still run the engine at indoor steam ups too. 





Atomizing type oil burners are how most modern full scale live steam engines fire (except coal). They use more steam and require hooking the engine up to a air compressor before each run to bring them up to pressure. The boiler gets an air coupler added and control valves for a blower, fuel, and steam lines. I like one of the smaller air compressors that are around $50.00 to use and that are compact. The burner mixes steam with the oil/ diesel fuel from a tank that must be made and added to the tender or fright car behind the engine. The valves require adjusting during every steaming and are very sensitive, but its still less work than coal firing. 





I would highly recommend that all boilers for each of the above types will need to have a water glass and check valve added too. This way there is no time limit on how long you can run. Just keep the water level and fuel levels right (buy hand pumping water into the boiler while its under steam and keep the tanks full or swap out new tanks when one gets empty), and you can steam for as long as you want. For example, the two tanks on the gas burners that I use can last for over six hours or so of running. I use the same butane/propane mix tanks for months, for I usually get tired after an hour or so of steaming each week. The tank assembly can also be made so you can use it on more than one engine to save time and money. The other nice thing with this set up is that you no longer have to wait and fill the small tanks anymore. Just screw on the valve before each run on the top of the tanks and your ready to go. But, I would also recommend to change the tanks with the fire off, for safety, but the engine can still be left at operating pressure for the quick change in tanks. 





I hope this is what kind of information you wanted, and Happy steaming, 





Tom S.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom S
"Atomizing type oil burners are how most modern full scale live steam engines fire (except coal)."

In the '50s a hobbyist did design atomizer burner setup successfully for live steam using alcohol. Our Saito boats also utilize this technique. One down side is that they are louder than the gas jet burners.


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Ok, so what is your point. Most live steam, full scale engines that run on a regular basis today, such as, at theme parks, do use oil type atomizing burners. However, some are changing over to biodiesel, but this does not burn as well as straight red dye diesel. Yet, it is less expensive, so the management people like it. 

As for using alcohol in an atomizing burner, I'm sure it can be done, but I would not recommend it, for alcohol burns fairy clearly or slightly blue or yellow if contaminated, so it would not be very safe for the excess drips of fuel that come from the normal firing practices of atomizing type burners. Oil has a much higher flash point, so it works fairy well, but even with oil, you can still get a very loud and dangerous bang if you light off the bricks on a full size engine. 

Happy steaming, 
Tom S.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom S
The point are...
1) There has been hobbyist that have utilized oi/diesel fuel in their alcohol wick based boilers but the wick tend to get "dirty" quickly along with oily residue tin the flues and smoke box
2) There is no safety problem with evaporizer burners as per the design of Saito steam boats nor with the 50's design
3) I was curious how one could develop a pressurized oil burner setup in gauge one
4) Modifying a stock gas boiler on a Ruby to coal fired would not be: "However, modified stock boilers take much less time (for water glasses, check valves etc.)" might as well start anew
5) Modifying a gas burner can also be made much more efficient via a radiant burner setup 


Finally, have you done this on a gauge one engine:
"Atomizing type oil burners are how most modern full scale live steam engines fire (except coal). They use more steam and require hooking the engine up to a air compressor before each run to bring them up to pressure. The boiler gets an air coupler added and control valves for a blower, fuel, and steam lines. I like one of the smaller air compressors that are around $50.00 to use and that are compact. The burner mixes steam with the oil/ diesel fuel from a tank that must be made and added to the tender or fright car behind the engine. The valves require adjusting during every steaming and are very sensitive, but its still less work than coal firing"


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Hi Charles,





This sounds like we are getting way off the subject of this thread, but I will say this to answer your five points in order:





1. Yes, the wicks and flues can get a build up as would be expected, but I minimised this by simply running your last run of the day with alcohol or by burning lighter fluid. Spraying the flues out with an air compressor every few months also helps to keep them clean too. I've been running the same wicks with diesel and lighter fluid for around five years now and have only needed to replace the wicks twice, but you must do your part to keep things clean after each run. Aster's manual even notes that the wicks should be replaced every year too, so I believe they are working fine for me. However, If you really want to work less for cleaning, then there are also a few additives that are available to help keep diesel fuel from clogging too, for they use these in many diesel trucks.





2. "There is no safety problem with evaporizer burners as per the design of Saito steam boats nor with the 50's design" Ok, maybe with that setup its ok, for I have not tried Saito steam boats, for I'm into live steam trains, so I can not speak for it. I was talking about the way I did it based on the more standard system that mixes steam with the fuel. The main difference is I use a double action airbrush for mixing.





3.Simple, I made the pressured system the same way you make one for full scale engines, just smaller valves and piping. For the burner, I used a Paasche airbrush sprayer for my burner, but most metal airburshs should work too. It allows lots of control. You may even be able to use a 1.5in gauge burner already in production, for they usually run on around 25 to 40 psi ok, but they like larger fireboxes. On my Ruby and Mogul, I just added a fuel valve, steam valve, airhouse coupler, blower valve, and deep firebox, much like the one people use for coal, and the rest is basicly the same. 





4. No, its simply much easier to mod a stock boiler, for I do not have to make all the other parts that are required to make a full boiler. It takes me about one hour to mod a stock boiler, while takes me about six to ten hours to do a full new one from scratch. It is also much cheaper to mod then to have to buy all the metal and shop time for a full boiler too. But full new boilers are needed for coal, but not always for oil. It depends on the engine, and how much the owner wants it to look scale.





5. Perhaps, I was just talking about the way I did it. There are 1000s of ways to make the gas burner better in the Rubys, and other live steam engines.





Lastly, Yes, I have done it, and it worked alright on the Rubys, but the clean-up and running duties is much more work then the wick type burner. For the Rubys have such a small boiler, you must work hard to keep the water level over the crown sheet of the firebox. The other thing that helped was to use a 2'' copper tube instead of the standard one for the out side of the boiler shell. Also adding car muffler insulation helped too for the boiler jacket. Furthermore, once the basic firebox is made into the boiler, the same engine can be fired with many different methods with the same boiler (just change out the burner assembly). I like the wick type burner running on lighter fluid the best and the modified gas set-ups. So that is what I usually use. 





Happy steaming,


Tom S.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom S

Thanks for the followup. I will look for the article of the 1950's fuel setup. I am really interested in your setup for the "oil" fired, maybe you can post a writeup in the informative thread index. There are a lot of "oil fired" gauge one represented and it would be a much cheaper fuel with some interesting effects.

Great to have your insight and skill on the MLS forum.


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Hi Charles,

Thank you, that would be great, for I'm always interested in learning new things. 


As for posting, I already tried posting it about 8 years ago on a few web sites (I do not remember which ones), but it did not seem to spark very much interest, for there are much better and easier ways to fire engines of our scale. However, if I can ever find my full write-up that I made on it, I'll try and post it. 

Lastly, the modified alcohol burner into oil seems to be the best (in my opinion) if a person wants a cool show of smoke, but I usually use lighter fluid for its less smokey (better for our loungs) and smells better too. 

As for the atomizing burner, I just made it in my spare time after working at the boiler shop on full scale steam engines. I watched full size engines using this style burner, and thought it would be a fun thing to challenge myself to be able to make it work with our smaller gauges. 

Have a great day, and happy steaming,
Tom S.


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## AzRob (Sep 14, 2009)

Oil fired sounds cool. You say cheaper and faster to convert. How much of a difference in cost are you talking?


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## Steamboil (May 12, 2009)

Hi AzRob,

It took me about 20 minutes to modify my Aster, but the Ruby took about 12 hours all together to make the new boiler. 

As for fuel. I spend around $15.00 per gallon for alcohol, and only around $3.50 for diesel. Lighter fluid is more, kind of in the middle depending on the brand. The best part is with burning the diesel wick set-up (Just in case you do not know, when I speak of oil, I usually mean diesel, for diesel is a type of oil,) for I tend to get about double the run time from one filling of the tender. As for run time on a tank of fuel, I'll use the Aster Mikado to give you a comparison that you may have seen run before. I tend to average about 40 to 60 minutes with alcohol, and around one and a half to two hours on one tender tank of oil/diesel fuel. I first tried these changes (to the wick type burner, not the atomizer burner, see above for this ones starting haritage) because I was worried about not being able to see the flame and little smoke with the stock alcohol setup from the factory, and before I new it, I found that I like this better, for more smoke and less chances of track fires. However, with the atomizer setup, the fuel consumption was higher, so it brings it down to around 25-30 minutes depending on the temperature/humidity levels outside for one filling of the tender tank.

Happy steaming,
Tom S.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Way to go, Brit....
Excellent first firing on coal. You had a great fire for a good length of time about 20 minutes. Unfortunately, we were limited in photos given Ryan was coal firing the K4 while I helped Brit:

Harry and Brittany with a brief about the various controls and technique. 











With a little assistance in the prep work, Brit was able to easily fire the locomotive 











Brit monitoring the engine as it gets up to steam 











After a good day of firing....


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Charles,
I had a great time yesterday running that ruby. i can absolutely not thank you enough for the chance that you gave me to fire it up.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Brit, 

It turns out there is a coal conversion just listed in the classifieds. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Shopping/Classifieds/tabid/61/agentType/View/PropertyID/558/Default.aspx


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

My newly time coal ruby can pull 8 accucraft coal cars + 12 mini lgbcars, before she can only pull 4 of those accucraft coal cars so definite improvement there, now I just have to find out why the water pump isn't keeping up anymore, maybe there has to be some type of washer/packing on the water pump from david bailey (same one on the side that is in the photo). I am running 60 psi in the boiler now days (in the past I only ran 40 psi (found a boiler cert by djb stating running psi is 60, hydrotested to 120)). it could also be that my fire is too hot and I was dumping out too much water(in steam form) out the blow off valve. 

Any ideas?


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, the pump should keep up with the boiler on the run, if not and you are blowing off from the safety valve then you are wasting water, try less fire, do not use the blower only when stationary and keep the pump on all the time. 
If water is being pumped with the by-pass open then it is working OK. 
As there is not much water in this small boiler then it is essential to keep the water level up to ensure that the crown sheet is not over heated and damaged. 
Small coal fired boilers need some learning on the best method of firing, this is only found out by trial and error, and hoping the errors do not get larger. 
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

thank you very much for informing me about the classified I have already contacted him and am discussing it with him.


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

I just bought the DJB kit in the classifieds. NEXT UP gotta build it.








Brittany


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Brit
That is great, we will have a container of coal ready for you. Hope all goes well, and we can see you at Cabin Fever.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Brit, 

If you need any help, feel free to shoot us an email, we have a few tips and tricks to ease the build process.


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

Charles and Ryan,
Thanks for offering your help I will probably need it.
Thanks, 
Brittany


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