# LGB F7 ABA -Revolution install question



## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi everyone,
So, I splurged and bought the LGB Blue Warbonnet F7 ABA and I want to install a Revolution in it, once they are back in stock. I do run strictly battery only. 
My question is, can I install everything in the B unit or do I need to tow a battery car?
Also, is there anywhere, where someone has documented the various install "how-to's"? I went to Greg's site first as I thought for sure I would find something there, then I googled Mylargescale for install help. So i'm sorry in advance if this has been asked a hundred times and I missed the posts.

On a side note: I also bought the newer version of the pacific from Aristo, but that should be pretty much plug and play. Right?

Thanks for all your help

Greg R.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a semi informed comment. I have an LGB F7 ABA. Except for the sound system, the B unit is empty. No motor. It should be a good space for a REVO and battery. I like to be able to easily exchange the battery for charging. I'm not sure how easy that would be on the "B". Chuck


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

I would install a charging jack and switch somewhere. I just got these babies today and havn't had a lot of time looking at them, But they sure look nice. 
Greg R.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have any LGB anymore, so no real tips on installation, most are set up for decoders or have one. 

Which units are powered? I know the B is unpowered, but what about the other A? 

How many revos are you going to use? Are you considering the 15 amp one, etc? 

Yes, the new Pacific will be a snap with the Revo. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Been a while. You should be able to use the jumper cables provided between units no problem. I thought there was an issue in the lighting boards....but cannot remember what. 
I have a full set of NYC ones here someone gutted the A unit boards out of. LGB sound....if it has the built-in MTS, you need to be able to work around it. I remember on the Moguls with that stuff, any PW output fried them, and you had repair costs not covered by warranty. 
Don't know if your Revu will access the MTS files of not. All the ones I did to obtain full sound control we gutted them and did a Sierra or Phoenix.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, I guess I didn't think this through, but I guess two of them. I was thinking only one, but then I guess not. What 15 amp are you talking about. 
BOTH A's are powered, B unpowered with sound unit. 
Greg R.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Maybe gut and re-wire?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Gotta be careful of the lighting. I have always stripped them out where possible. 
You feed a PW output into an LGB digital MTS style sound card....well, I've dealt with folks who have done that. There is a way to bypass the MTS and connect battery power direct to the sound card, but without the MTS signal, we could only get crossing whistle and programmed bell. 
I've done some Revu's and if I recall, you are trigger out, which means I think you lose any ability to real-time existing sound cards. 
I ALWAYS told folks to choose the units without sound, as they needed to be gutted anyway. 

Save all the bits....somebody may want the stuff! 
TOC


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB sound units in the F7 take motor sounds from an axle, and have reeds for bell and whistle. 
The other sounds are available from the MTS or digital systems. 
LGB used pulsed F1 signals to select sounds in some units, others used the SUSI bus. 
On analog power, the track voltage determined start up direction.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, that's what I said. He has, with a Revu, reed switch functionality on horn and bell. The motor rev is off an axle in an A unit, if I recall. Allows for wiring simplification to remove that. 

If a person is happy with their radio/battery control; system, doesn't want anything to do with dcc, and doesn't care if the sound system sounds just like all the rest of the LGB F units out there....and you keep blowing the crossing signal in the middle of the desert....then this sound system is for you! 

I think I still have several of the old Mogul systems that literally filled the tender. 

Funny how the mandated inclusion of MTS seemed to coincide with the insolvency....just a coincidence, right?


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

I just ran a AB on the workbench. Sounds good to me. The track expansion I'm currently doing has a small loop maybe I will keep that track powered for now. I don't know. Once Aristo gets the receivers in and I can tear into it will I know. 
Thanks 
Greg R.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Am I missing something? Do all LGB F units have sound, and are all sound systems MTS? 

I thought that the sound system was in the B unit only, and there were both analog and MTS ones, but I don't know this stuff like Dan does. 

Can we start there (understand what electronics are in his three locos?) 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

F-7's have it...in the B unit, triggered for speed from the A unit. Not all are MTS, but we don't know what he has...I don't think. BTAIM, without a DCC input of some kind, getting real time horn and bell from a trigger output throttle....well, beyond the scope of what it's worth trying to do. 
I have gone into certain sound systems and found trigger points....Lionel is one. 
Horn works when you press the horn button, bell works when you let go of the bell button. Go figure. 

I think early F-7's were non MTS, but, again, didn't do enough of them to even try to keep track of it. 
TOC


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

They are all equipped with factory installed LGB Multi-Train System decoders. 
Greg R.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he will have to open them up to verify exactly what is inside. 

So the speed sensor is on the A unit and uses SUSI to the sound unit.... interesting... there's something that has never really caught on... SUSI... it was a good idea when everyone thought that motor and sound decoders had to be multiple boards. 

Now that microprocessors are more powerful, and can do several things at once, it makes more sense (and lowers cost) to keep things on one board, rather than add this communications interface to two boards. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My LGB F7 ABA must be an earlier version. Mine don't have MTS. It is probably my fault that LGB went under. I stopped buying their engines when they went to MTS. I didn't want a second power system to worry about, pay for, and not use. Chuck


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

My recollection is that the early ones did not have MTS, later ones, when they started mandating what you would have in your locos, did. 
I know a lot of folks who refused to buy into the MTS-mandate, or just did a full gut-and-throw. 
TOC


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't want to open them up until the new shipment of Revo receivers come in. I lose things on the workbench...... 

Greg R.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It really, as in really, doesn't matter which version of MTS you have. No LGB sound I can recall running across can be "real-timed", which is to say, you want a long horn or short horn, you do that by holding the button down as long as you want, and bell, on, then another push, and off....with trigger output throttles. 
If you don't care...if magnets or trigger giving 15 seconds of bell and a crossing horn every time is okay with you, then it's do-able. 
You will need to feed switched pure battery voltage into the sound, bypassing any MTS, and probably a relay to trigger the sounds if you want to keep the reed switches functional....using a common ground with the power feeding back to the MTS might not be a good idea. 
Once you get all this in your head, you will see why it's gut and throw. 
TOC


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

That's probably what I'll end up doing. I have only performed two Revo installs so I still have shaky legs when it comes to tearing into a perfectly good engine. but I end up with what I wanted in the long run. I'll get over it. Thanks guys. 
Greg R.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

TOC:


I'm glad you are back here on MLS. I have missed your constructive comments and help.

Unfortunately, gut, throw and replace are above my pay grade. All but three of my engines are track power. The three that are not are battery. A K28 , Accucraft on Airwire and K-27 Bachmann and Aristo Mallet on REVO. I use these mostly on other's layouts where there is no track power. I have never counted the number of engines I have, it is like my fly rod collection, I'd rather not know. I could not afford to retrofit all my engines to another power system. I have been acquiring them since about 1980, many are analog LGBs. 

Chuck


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Oh yeah, forgot to add. My units only came with one 2 wire connector, Anyone here know where to find that connector or know the "common" name for the connector that I can order through digikey or somewhere like that. 
Greg R.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 10 Sep 2013 06:25 PM 
TOC:


I'm glad you are back here on MLS. I have missed your constructive comments and help.

Unfortunately, gut, throw and replace are above my pay grade. All but three of my engines are track power. The three that are not are battery. A K28 , Accucraft on Airwire and K-27 Bachmann and Aristo Mallet on REVO. I use these mostly on other's layouts where there is no track power. I have never counted the number of engines I have, it is like my fly rod collection, I'd rather not know. I could not afford to retrofit all my engines to another power system. I have been acquiring them since about 1980, many are analog LGBs. 

Chuck

The "gut and throw" in this instance regards real-time sound triggers from a trigger only output throttle to any LGB sound system.
If you like the crossing horn (or whistle) every time, that works.
Mikey and the Richters are about the only ones in LS to mandate use of some type of dcc to control their proprietary sounds, aren't they?
Bachmann did it with certain 3-truck Shays.....I remember folks all excited about having sound...until they realized the 8 volts to start moving, the inability to trigger any sounds with magnets, and they couldn't even adjust the volume. At least LGB gave you those options.

I gave up counting mine long ago. I usually keep 14 in the shed, charged for ops sessions, with a shelf full in the store room.
Some day I'll need to drag some out and swap some locos around.

Funny....all those LGB sound systems I've ripped out over the years...absolutely nobody wants them.

TOC


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, I had a challenge, of sorts. 
I pulled out three boxes (I think there are more...have to go look)...maybe three full UINTAH systems...except one is mounted to a long aluminium plate....a bunch of LGB units I cannot yet identify. One has a tag "Decoder Ready", I thought I'd thrown out all the Paul Lousey systems....PH Hobbies...years ago. Two handfuls of the buggers. 
I have an old original U25B noisemaker...remember those? An RS or FA with the contact clips on the back.....one board that says "Train Sound". Gawd, we had a lot of carp (sp) in the old days, eh? 
Dug out an old Mogul Analog system just to shake my head and put it back. 
It's no wonder I ripped all of these out. 
I suppose I need to sort out the rest of these small LGB boards so I can annotate the tombstone for them. 

TOC


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

All Lgb moguls have the chuff sensor on the engine rear axle and speaker in the tender. Sound boards for MTS were in the engine. 
All F7B units had the speed sensor, reeds, and sound board in the B unit, not the A. The A just had a speaker. The sound board in the B has 2 audio amps and can drive the A and B in the AB setup, or just drive 2 A's in the ABA setup. This is why the 4 pin audio speaker cable can never be used between 2 B units, it would tie 2 audio amps together. 
Original F7A/B 's did not have MTS and needed 2 55021's in the A unit (one for each motor) and another 55021 in the B unit for horn blasts for direction. 

On another note, many LGB sound systems will not work properly unless the chuff sensor can see the wheel turning.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 11 Sep 2013 04:38 AM 
All Lgb moguls have the chuff sensor on the engine rear axle and speaker in the tender. Sound boards for MTS were in the engine. 
All F7B units had the speed sensor, reeds, and sound board in the B unit, not the A. The A just had a speaker. The sound board in the B has 2 audio amps and can drive the A and B in the AB setup, or just drive 2 A's in the ABA setup. This is why the 4 pin audio speaker cable can never be used between 2 B units, it would tie 2 audio amps together. 
Original F7A/B 's did not have MTS and needed 2 55021's in the A unit (one for each motor) and another 55021 in the B unit for horn blasts for direction. 

On another note, many LGB sound systems will not work properly unless the chuff sensor can see the wheel turning. 

I'll have to dig out the old F-7 set...I could have sworn the speed sensor was in one of the A units.
With a nominal .6A per Buehler can, that falls within 2.5A total motor draw. I've done these with a 3A throttle and batteries in the B, driving both powered A units from the B. Never had any issues, including using the factory jumper cables...until they broke.
Of course we gutted out the original sound as useless for our needs.
TOC


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

I can verify along with Dan that hall effect sensor is in the B unit. I converted both trucks to powered blocks , I had to add a sound axle with gear to the rear truck to accommodate the sensor. 

The Roundhouse RnR


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I had to go drag this one out and look. Maybe I was thinking no track pickups in the B. It's been a long time since I did one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wasn't the B unit never powered stock? Any powered B unit was because someone swapped in powered trucks? 

Thanks, good learning exercise! 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Not factory, I don't think they were powered. 
This one here has sort of confused the memory, as it's been played with a lot. 
There are no circuit boards in either A unit....been hard wired (by me) to make them work. I have circuit boards galore, just not sure what fits. 
Different multi-wire plugs and harnesses between units. 
I gotta get rid of these...they just take up space.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Aristocraft just told me they should have shipment in next week. and said I should be able to run both A units from one Rx. 

SO,This is how I see this install: 
I know that the 2 wire connector is power for the sound and to power the other A unit for positive voltage, in case of dirty track. 
The four wire connector is for speakers and the other two wires, not sure yet. maybe for the magnet triggers. 
So if I install a revo, PWM and battery (18-22v), along with charging jack, and a dpdt switch, in the B unit, it should work. 
from the battery to the PWM then to the Rx and sound. From the Rx to the 2 wire ports back to the motors. Right? I will disable the track pickups as with the other installs I have done and swap power leads for the trailing A unit so it will go reverse instead of forward. 
Simple simon. Right? Unless im missing something, which I often do..... 
Thanks 
Greg R.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

In the LGB F7B unit, the magnet trigger is a 3 wire cable that goes to the dummy B unit truck (Cable caries ground/common, bell and whistle triggers). 
Also there is a 3 wire cable for the axle speed sensor on that truck (cable caries + and - power and the axle signal). 
on the end of the B unit, the 2 pin socket is track power and the 4 wire socket is for speaker multiplexing. in ABA configurations.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Just wondering if I should put two 18v batteries in parallel or have two separate packs for each A unit going to one charging port? Or will one 18v-22v be enough for running both A units 
Greg R.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Keep it Simple.. 
You can use one battery 18.5V @ 8400mah Lithium-ion Battery-Pack which at this size will give you plenty of run time.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks. Guess I could try it and then if not swap up or add more.
Greg R.


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