# Inspired by Marty's Terminal B. a rebuilt yard on IE&W



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Seeing Marty Cozad's thread on building another covered terminal building and providing more storage, I finally redesigned my primary yard on the IE&W Ry. The original design had seven tracks on 7 inch centers. The switch placement created a loss of several feet of usable siding space.
I reinstalled the tracks on 6 inch centers, immediately gaining one track. I reconfigured the switches and used two Llagas Creek #10 3way switches to compress the space needed for the switches. I also positioned the first three way on the narrow "duck under" connecting the yard to the rest of the layout. The duck under now has a sheet of DiBond on it to allow for extra width and less weight. It is supported by a piece of 1 x 2 aluminum rectangular tube. I gained about an extra 60 feet of usable sidings with this project without rebuilding any of my existing support structure.



















What's left? I need to paint the DiBond with Grey primer [too cool and damp today] and install the ground throws. Because of clearance issues, on parallel tracks these will be mounted on the Trex so they are below the rail head.
The photo above makes the yard look short; the center track starting at the first switch is 39 feet long.

Marty.... thank you for the inspiration and motivation.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, it looks good. Now all you need is some track occupied signs, so that when we are out on the main running, we have a siding to come home to. Chuck


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim 
That is so great, and best of all its UP OFF the ground.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Marty 

At the far end the deck is only about 14 inches off the ground. One draw back to these elevated tracks ids that there is no "stepping over" to get to the other side of the line. As I have gotten older [65 last week], my back and knees are much happier than if I had a track like my old one where most of the line was only 6 to 18 inches above the grass. 

Now I need to remember that the 16 x 72 foot building is MY covered "Golding Terminal" and get to that phase of construction so that hauling trains is a thing of the past.


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

As I have gotten older [65 last week] 

Welcome to the Senior Citizen club. Just think of all the discounts we can now collect on!!


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

OH! and the yard looks great. I'd like to come down and run on your railroad some day.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Jim, It looks great, and adds a good bit more storage room, for just a little bit of work and money!!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks great Jim! I also want to visit sometime and run trains.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Fantastic, Jim...

Looks great and very functional..


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Stan 

It would be more functional if my sidings were as long as Marty's, even single ended. An 18 car Daylight in 1:32 is 48 feet long, so even with the 8 foot portable extension I have from Mike Moore, I would be short about two feet on my longest siding. I hope to build the "mating interface" between the end of the existing yard and Mikes portable track section. Making a permanent extension will interfere with grass cutting, so it is not in the plan. Maybe a two foot wide "interface" to get that extra length? 

Chuck. 

Maybe I will just put your name on a brick and you can put it on the siding while you are out running. I am sure people will only hit it ONCE.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

With my track record it would probably be me backing in. Chuck


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Chuck 

You forgot that at standard gauge meets we now employee yard switchers and crews to move trains in and out of the yards. Road locomotive engineers only handle the train on the main line. Of course, it will be one of the switch engine guys that pushes your ore cars into the BRICK.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 23 Apr 2013 06:47 PM 
Stan 

It would be more functional if my sidings were as long as Marty's, even single ended. Jim... Might the answer be that you shouldn't run such long trains.......









Nah, guess that's not practical..


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Sure is FUN to run long trains, TOO!!!!!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Stan 

I think that long tracks are kind of like horizontal surfaces in your house. There just seems to be a natural tendency for the things to get covered. On the D&RGW NG, empty stock trains of 60-70 cars were run regularly. 125-150 car trains with distributed power are common today. Many of us enjoy long trains, it is just that large layouts with wide curves and long runs are the exception, not the rule. When I first designed this layout in 1993 with the help of Pete Jobusch, the limiting factor was the amount of garden hose I had to use to mark the approximate route. Fortunately, i only had 525 feet. This sounds like an "after the fact" story... but it is true. Most people are not blessed with the amount of space I had to work with, and they often have financial commitments that do not allow them to go "over the edge" with a large layout. I warn people that when they start wishing for a "big track", they need to consider the commitment to maintenance and upkeep which includes both time and money. 

All that said, being able to see 12-20 car passenger trains, and 50 car freights is great fun. 

Dwight, Dirk... all you guys west of the Mississippi R.... send an email if you want an invite to a meet. Dwight... if you have a boiler cert for that BIG engine, bring it and we can run in Baltimore.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the invite Jim! Unfortunately, it'll have to wait until I retire. Shouldn't be that much longer.









As for long passenger trains not fitting on your siding, wasn't it common prototype practice to break a long train in half and park it on two sidings at the station for passenger loading and unloading? Seems to me I read about this way back when.

I realize you have a different purpose here than actual passenger prototypes, but the end result is the same.









Re: Baltimore... are they 7-1/4" or 7-1/2" gauge?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dwight 

The magic of 1.5in/1.6in / ft scale. The geography is simple [with the exception of newer tracks in '7 1/4 land' are now 7 1/2]: 

British standard 7.25in gauge ==> East of the Pennsylvania/Ohio border, North on the Mason/Dixon line [Pennsylvania/Maryland] 
That would be PA, NY, NJ, MA, CT, RI, NH, VT, ME, parts of DE 

7.5 in gauge EVERYWHERE ELSE 

==== 

Regarding splitting long passenger trains in terminals, you are correct. It is just a PITA uncoupling the Accucraft cars with the full width diaphrams. I have replaced the dummy couplers with Kadees, not sure that the 1:32 Accucraft working knuckle couplers would stay closed with all that weight. 

So.. the CALS track in Baltimore, MD is 7.5 in gauge.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It is just a PITA uncoupling the Accucraft cars with the full width diaphrams. I have replaced the dummy couplers with Kadees, not sure that the 1:32 Accucraft working knuckle couplers would stay closed with all that weight.You might consider a KaDee magnetic uncoupling ramp #842 at the beginning of one siding designated for that purpose. They even make a portable uncoupling ramp in "G" scale - #844 - that _may_ allow it to be used on any siding available. Just a thought...


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Looking good, but I would hate to have to do the weed wacking around all those supports...Ha. Nice photos...thanks for sharing. Ed


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed 
Jims wife is big into N scale, so she does all that "little" stuff.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 23 Apr 2013 10:25 PM 
Sure is FUN to run long trains, TOO!!!!! 
Yeal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Long trains Rule


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK JJ, what is your personal longest run to date? 

Mine so far is 70 inter-modals pulled with a single SD70Mac, carrying single containers! The run was on the DRV&E, and running up to 2.5% grades...March - 2009 

Dirk - :~ }


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

No , anything older than one year does not count. LOL.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ed [in Flagstaff] 

There are approximately 200 pairs of 4x4 posts on the layout spaced at 44 inches along the axis of the layout. In the past I have had younger attendees with strong backs doing the trimming next to the posts after I cut under it with a mower. Most of it gets cut by pushing my lawn mower under the layout, two passes between each post going around the outside and then the inside. So that's 800 in-and-outs with the push rotary mower. This may be the year of "ROUNDUP!!" next to the posts. Still beats trying to run live steam at ground level. 

JJ and Dirk.... 
What constitutes "longest train"? 

a] Number of cars 
b] number of axles 
c] length of train in scale feet? 
d] length of train in actual [1:1] feet? 

AFAIK, the longest train run on the IE&W Ry is around 100 PFE reefers with three live steam Cab Forwards. Alan Redeker probably knows the exact number.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OOOHHH Jim's got you there...........


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good Jim. Lot of work re laying all those tracks. Those Llagas switches are a work of art. I'm very pleased with mine.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 23 Apr 2013 11:24 AM 
Jim, it looks good. Now all you need is some track occupied signs, so that when we are out on the main running, we have a siding to come home to. Chuck 

How about a drop out ramp track that puts the storage thiefs cars under the yard.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

GEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZ.... Marty,.... you are just all over this Man!!! LOL!! 

Old events lapse in time eh!?? Does this mean I need to be "Re-Certified" again for this year??? ha,... I'll be off to Dennis's to run again...maybe a longer load..!!!! 

Jim, I suspect it is an open subject as long as we all do it just fer FUN!! 

The "GOLD Standard'' tho is measured in feet, thus in Scale miles, ala - Guinness Records.... so there is a easy way to compare and cars sizes do not matter here! Scales are relative... the current standing record is about 15.25 scale miles, in HO, which translates into 2700-2800 feet in 1/29th, just to keep up..Whew!! 

100 Ore cars vs. 100 - 100 ton hoppers vs. 100 well cars are not equal, different as spinach and apples.... 

70 well cars are 28'' long, 70 = 163.3 feet plus loco... 

Dennis is up to 152 cars in a mixed freight format, and I have seen a vid. of his running like 82 well cars, with about 5-6 locos - which I suspect knowing Him - only 4 where powered. 

So JJ, where are you buddy!?? 

Jim - How long, what scale are the PFE reefers? 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Big difference is that these trains of 100 PFE reefers are being pulled not by 3-5 electric locos but one live steam loco. The Cab Forward in particular I believe. The reefers are 1:32 scale by Accucraft. I think the videos are on Youtube by Charles or Scott. Ive also pulled about 52 stock cars in 20.3 first with one K28 live steam then added 2 more just for run. Ran for over an hr at basically full throttle. Was over 250lbs of train and a scale 1500'+ train.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 24 Apr 2013 06:35 PM 
Ed [in Flagstaff] 

There are approximately 200 pairs of 4x4 posts on the layout spaced at 44 inches along the axis of the layout. In the past I have had younger attendees with strong backs doing the trimming next to the posts after I cut under it with a mower. Most of it gets cut by pushing my lawn mower under the layout, two passes between each post going around the outside and then the inside. So that's 800 in-and-outs with the push rotary mower. This may be the year of "ROUNDUP!!" next to the posts. Still beats trying to run live steam at ground level. 

JJ and Dirk.... 
What constitutes "longest train"? 

a] Number of cars 
b] number of axles 
c] length of train in scale feet? 
d] length of train in actual [1:1] feet? 

AFAIK, the longest train run on the IE&W Ry is around 100 PFE reefers with three live steam Cab Forwards. Alan Redeker probably knows the exact number. 

Number of Cars.


And you have to have more cars than the guy next to you 

JJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

JJ, this sounds more like a Drag race, ... 

..." more cars than the Guy next to you!!" 

zoom, zoooom!! 

Dirk :~}


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good Jim. I use a compound ladder to gain more space. I find that 6" centers are too close for narrow gauge or 1:20 scale. Takes more like 8".


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

John 

If I keep things like K-36s and locos with plows out of the yard 6 inches works with 1:20.3... lots of experience.. and it is all straight track. My other yard still has 7 inch centers. I don't expect people to be reaching between the cars so 10 feet [1:20] is OK. If a brakeman stays on the side of the car during a switch move he may just get scraped off.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim called last night and was asking about train lengths on the IE&W Rwy., so I went looking for a video. The max I could find was this clip from the Spring 2010 meet with 81 mixed cars behind an AC-12 at 0:50 and then at 4:00 there is a consist of 61 reefers + caboose behind the AC-6 at its debut.



However -- my recollection is there was one meet (with no video, of course!) where we went for it -- seeing if the AC-6 prototype could pull the ultimate reefer block: Jim's 30, Ryan's 18 and my 54 to make the total of 102 reefers. But, when one coupler broke, it ended up 101 plus the caboose. The 1:32 reefers are 16-1/2'" with the draft gear stretched out, so the total train length calculates as 140' plus the engine at 4' for a total consist length of 144 feet. In 1:32 scale that's 4612'.

The AC-6 was able to get up Jim's 0.6% grade with the train, but it was a chore. It meant making sure the boiler was full, then stopping to build steam 75' or so before the grade (until the pops lifted), opening the axle pump bypass valve, and making a run for it! On the grade I had to adjust the balance valve between the two engines to keep them from slipping. The train was moving slowly by the time it crested the grade, but the locomotive pulled it on its own. Once it started picking up speed I readjusted the balance valve and closed the bypass to pump water all the way down grade and on the flat. Then stopped for a minute at the same place to build steam and did it again.

After two or three circuits it became obvious that this was more trouble than it was worth, so 20 cars or so were dropped. After that the engine was a happy camper: all I had to do was adjust the bypass to manage the boiler water level and enjoy the run.

This is probably way more information than was needed. But to answer the question, the longest train that I know of running at the IE&W is 101 cars plus caboose.

Best regards,

Alan

PS And then there was the time at NSS 2011 that in an effort spearheaded by Matt Abreu, a train of 104 reefers plus caboose was assembled, using three cab forwards led by Matt's.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yep, Ya got to be careful around any of us that were in Scottsdale running the Longest Train - Attempts... Matt included!!!! 

It is addicting and so many of us still want to do better!! 

Dennis seems generally to be the longest successful runner of us all then!! 

Dirk,...... well Guys - Steam on!!


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

Dennis seems generally to be the longest successful runner of us all then!! 

Errr..don't think so. Dennis used at least four powered locomotives according to you, so 152 divided by 4 equals 38 car per locomotive. The cab-forward pull 101+1 cars with no help.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Chester 

The "randomly unofficial" rules allow for ANY number of powered units, including mid-train helpers. The Guinness Book record for the H0 train had a whole lot of mid train power. 

From the web site [Google "worlds longest model train"] 



The longest model train measured 282.11 m (925 ft 6 in) and was made up of 31 locomotives and 1,563 carriages. It was constructed by the Wilmington Railroad Museum Model Railroad Committee (USA) and was presented and measured in Wilmington, North Carolina, USA, on 23 April 2011 

The scale of the train was 1:87.1 (H0). The scale length of the train is 24.571 km (15.27 miles). 

EDIT -- This would be 50.4 cars/locomotive.

BUT.. Marty says this DOES NOT COUNT, since it happened more than a year ago... COZAD'S Rule #7.


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

OH.....thought it was per locomotive.............never mind(picture Emily Litella by Gilda Radner)


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Alan in Adirondacks on 25 Apr 2013 01:19 PM 


PS And then there was the time at NSS 2011 that in an effort spearheaded by Matt Abreu, a train of 104 reefers plus caboose was assembled, using three cab forwards led by Matt's.



This brings a whole new meaning to chasing your own tail! 104 cars on a portable track woah.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 25 Apr 2013 10:49 AM 
John 

If I keep things like K-36s and locos with plows out of the yard 6 inches works with 1:20.3... lots of experience.. and it is all straight track. My other yard still has 7 inch centers. I don't expect people to be reaching between the cars so 10 feet [1:20] is OK. If a brakeman stays on the side of the car during a switch move he may just get scraped off. 

Jim, what centers do you use on the mainline? We use 8" as standard here at the club layout at Zube Park since we run everything from 1/32 to 1/13. On my personal RR which is all 1:20 narrow gauge I use 9" on the mains and yards. Storage in the shed is more like 7".


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

John 

I have 7.0' to 7.5" in centers on the main line, but I have a minimum of 24 foot radius curves. Two K-36s can pass without a problem.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Long trains run by train length, you could have 100 locos tooo! 

In Dennis's case - he also posted - still there - the same 152 cars pulled by ,..... a single Big Boy loco... He wants to increase the length when times allows ..!! 

.... some interesting thoughts here tho! 

Marty's rule number 7 - mmm, means the record HO train is no longer is accepted ....really... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dirk 

I don't think that the Guinness Book of World Records pay any attention to COZAD'S Rules... just those of us who may want to run trains in Nebraska City NE.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

No Cozad, just joking,,,


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 24 Apr 2013 04:05 PM 
OK JJ, what is your personal longest run to date? 

Mine so far is 70 inter-modals pulled with a single SD70Mac, carrying single containers! The run was on the DRV&E, and running up to 2.5% grades...March - 2009 

Dirk - :~ } 
Mine is 52 cars.....3 USAT 5 car articulated container cars....the rest in box. tank. flat, and hopper cars.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To me it's always been the number of cars... maybe because I did not want to run a tape measure. 

In my case, the "point of honor" or achievement is what I can do on my own layout... then it is a measure of my trackwork, my locomotives and my rolling stock. 

All of these have to work. I have 3.4% grades and have run a 50 car freight, no ball bearings in any cars except the caboose, 3 Aristo E8's, stainless wheels on stainless track. 

greg


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