# Any interest in USA Trains F3 replacement Farr air intake grilles?



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I’m interested in replacing the grilles in multiple USA Trains F3 A/B units with custom fabricated Stainless Steel grilles emulating FARR grilles used to update the F3’s and as delivered on F7’s.

I have already created CAD drawings and submitted requests for quotes from several photo etching and or machining vendors in the USA. 

The grilles are made from pre-etched Matt finished 316 annealed stainless with tabs as the OEM counterpart, but are a few thousandths shorter than their brethren to allow for heat cycling.

Cost is a little lofty IMO, but affordable if one is interested in accurately representing the Farr grilles.

Both A and B unit grilles will be produced, as they are distinctly different in length and vertical support count and spacing.

Cost is approximately $22.00 per grille….. Each engine will require two grilles…. This price is good for an order of 105 grilles of each version! So I’d have enough for approximately fifty “A” and fifty “B” units. I’m going to use at least twelve pair of each grille type for my Southern Pacific fleet of F3’s; some to be modeled as F7’s, several additional pairs are spoken for. I’m going to need to sale another thirty pair or so to make this happen!

To that end I have also requested quotes from additional companies. Perhaps one vendor is much hungrier than the other. I may also look for quotes from overseas entities.

So, if you have interest please share your thoughts.

Kind Regards
Michael Glavin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can you post some good pictures comparing the 2 types (chicken wire and FARR)? 

I'm most likely interested, seems that around 1949 to 1952 Santa Fe changed a number of F3's. 

I have a pretty good string of F3's allocated (just putting QSI Titans in them, using one Titan for an AB set) 

Thanks, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
Let me be the first to commit to a purchase if you go ahead with this project. I would like two A units and two B units. 
I put off buying USA F3's for a long time because I really,really don't like the looks of the chicken wire grilles on early F3's. A year or so ago a deal came my way for an S.P. black widow A-B that I could not pass up. Then lets just say a friend sold me another S.P. black widow A unit. Having a chance to swap out the old grilles for stainless farr grilles is something I won't pass up.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
Sometime during 1948 EMD stopped using the chicken wire grilles and started using the stainless farr-aire grilles on new factory run F3's and then of course on F7's. Maybe that is when S.F got them. The photo of the F's in your signature has farr grilles.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I would be interested as well. Thanks Paul for the explanation about the two different types of grills. A side by side comparison would be helpful to see the differences. 

Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good enough for me, thanks Paul, you confirmed my limited research. 

Let me see what I can afford... I have a plan for an AABBBA setup, I guess it's not that much... 

Count me in, 6 A grills, 6 B grills.... 

Thanks, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
Let me clarify. Two sets for A units and two sets for B units, 8 grilles total.

Chicken wire grilles like USA.
http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/f...erenyi.jpg


The more common farr grille.

http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/f...imling.jpg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Duplicate post


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The chicken wire link is bad... looks like you copied the display text where MLS puts ... in the middle of the text, but it's not a real link, like the farr one... 

I've been trying to see a close up view of the real chicken wire... 


I went to the site and checked out the f3 pictures, is this a good example?

http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/f-unit_photos/0307_tno-f3a-joe_strapac-collection.jpg 


Thanks, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
Fixed it. Yours is good too. The F3 with the chicken wire is a really early version with a second row of grilles under the first. The chicken wire example is still good.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul, Greg and Craig thanks for your interest… Hopefully additional modelers will find favor with my venture and we’ll be able to proceed with a purchase.

I find it interesting that such an obscure version and low number of engines produced was chosen to be modeled by USAT. But then they also chose to model the lowly GP7 verses the GP9 which simply put; was mass produced!

I’ll offer a little history of F3 evolution:

There were four iterations of the F3, specifically with regard to the side panels or openings. The F3 engines were manufactured for 28 months. Late in 1946 EMD announced that production of the F3 was to begin, production halted in early 1949.

Phase I:[/b] Late 1946 chicken wire in the vent opening area and three port holes.
Phase I photo
Phase II:[/b] Mid 1947 two port holes, added four vents in line with port holes and coarse chicken wire covered all. Same as Greg’s picture of SP/TNO #307.
Phase II photo
Phase III:[/b] End of 1947 elevated fan shrouds deleted, second quarter of 1948 lower chicken wire covering vents was deleted. Third quarter of 1948 lower vent opening saw louvers. Phase III photo
Phase IV:[/b] September 1948 chicken wire was discarded and horizontal stainless grilles were fitted. Phase IV photo

It was very common for railroads to update the side air intake screening in-house to Farr stainless grilles. Paul’s picture of SP F3 #6122 was originally equipped with chicken and like all of SP’s equipment updated with Farr grilles early on.
SP #6122 photo

USA Trains F3 model depicts Phase III construction; these units were only produced for a few months in 1948. Then came the Farr grilles for another five months or so, subsequently the F3 was no longer offered. For awhile there was actually an F5, these were equipped with the new D-27 traction motors but it was never advertised or marketed. SP's last orders of F3’s were really F5’s…

EMD produced 1111 F3A units and 696 F3B units…. February 1949 saw the first F7’s.

Michael


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Michael, 
Interesting that you mention the F5's. I haven't done much prototype research yet on the USAT model verses the prototype, but I recall hearing that the USAT model was closer to a F5, than a F3...


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Craig,

The F5’s were not available until after August of 1948, all had Farr grilles and were Phase IV iterations. F5's with the advent of the D-27 traction motor together with other changes became the F7 in early 1949. The chicken wire grille and louvers of Phase III tells the tale of the USAT F3.

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

As it stands I’m pretty close to obtaining enough interest to move forward and get this project on the rails to fruition… 

The price for the grilles has been adjusted via multiple quotes and such to about $18.00 USD or $36.00 per engine. I even upped the quantity at various levels in an attempt to get the lower bottom-line, but unless one wants a thousand pieces or so its fruitless.

On another note; my friend NoelW suggested info from his HO modeling days that the F3 and F7 car-bodies were shaped different, specifically the contour of the nose about the headlight and lower door area. Can anyone confirm this is a reality or not? I want to model F7’s too, if in fact there is a difference its appears to be un-notable in all the pictures I have looked at

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes they were different, but unless you want to get some putty and reshape the noses, how would you do this? There's no other SCALE model... and even the F3's are not perfect. 

You can read all the details on the evolution on HO forums and prototype forums from the real rivet counters. 

Any news on polished grills, rather than matte/etched ones suitable for painting? 

I'm Santa Fe and I need them at least "satin", not mirror shiny, but shiny. 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg,

I can eliminate the etched matt finish, so it should be kind of a dull shiny but not a polished look. I was looking for a satin finish thus the matt etched request. That said not really sure what it will look like in ‘matt’ simply going by the etchers suggestion that they could do it…

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yeah, a satin finish would be like 2000 or more grit in a single direction. The etched part sounds like a "bead blast" or random pitting. I'm only guessing, but a finish like you have on stainless steel kitchen appliances would be fine. 

Crazy people could possibly buff it up more if they desired. 

Thanks, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
I just took another look my copy of Southern Pacific Diesels Volume 10 ,which covers the freight F3 and F7 units. I cannot find any mention of a change to the nose. They did change from square cornered doors to round cornered doors.,supposedly to stop rust buildup. There were other changes like fans and fuel tanks through the years. Nose lifting lugs were added on later units and no rear roof overhang. As you know there are at least two hundred photos in this book. I sure can't tell any difference on the noses.
Have you shown a color photograph of the grilles to any of the possible vendors? Maybe that would help with what finish to order?


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul

I did forward a picture to all that provided bids, albeit it was a B&W photo. An etched Matte finish would likely provide the look I was advised by two of the vendors. I think I’ll just leave the metal in its raw form, I suspect we can endeavor ourselves to change the grilles look based on our needs. I believe dragging the right grit sandpaper lengthwise to create a grain will suffice for SP. I agree with Greg the finish like that of my kitchen appliances would be fine.

Yeah, the car body changes at the nose seem almost undetectable to me simply looking at pictures. As Greg suggested the USAT F3 is not perfect to begin with but what we have to play with. I wouldn’t object to reshaping the nose on my equipment had I an accurate model or guideline to follow.

Were getting closer, I’ve had some additional inquiries of interest for four more pairs of each grille type…

Michael


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
Sounds like you are close to being able to do this. I have a feeling that once a few photos of models with the new grilles start showing up that there will be a whole lot of interest.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I’m going to move forward with an order. I’ll advise as things progress. Lead time for production was quoted at a couple weeks….

If I don’t have an email address for those that are interested please ping me via PM system and provide same.

Paul, I think your right, accordingly I’m going to have several pieces available for sale later.

Regards,
Michael


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
I promise to post photos as soon as I get the new grilles installed.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

and you can add 1 set ( single A unit only ) for me...THX... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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