# Help a fellow newbie out! I'm considering live steam!



## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

First of all, its been a few years since I last posted here. I don't know if any of remember me or not. Doesn't matter much either way! I'll get straight to the point.

I'm moving into a house with a patio that is half cement half garden with soil and such with a fully enclosed screen. It's oh fifteen by fifteen I'd say. Enough room to do a small circle. I was thinking of doing a garden but then it hit me. Ever since I was a kid, it was one of my dreams to do a garden railroad. Well lots changed, interest faded but you know what? I'm thinking about it again. I'm considering selling all my electrics and keeping the rolling stocks to get one or two good live steam 1:20.3 narrow gauge trains! Electrics just get old after a while and since I'll be saving money with owning over renting, I'll have some extra money to throw around and plus I should get a good sum from selling my remaining engines. That's besides the point, I know this board doesn't allow hot links to ebay sales and that is fine.


My question is, what do I need to know? Which are the best manufacturers for the least amount of money? I want to spend I'd say under $2,000 for my first. I'd prefer a small 4-4-0, 2-4-0, or 2-6-0 with a tender. I have considered the Accucraft 2-4-4T Forney and their 2-6-0 Baldwin but are there any other ones on the market I should look at for my price range? I looked at Roundhouse and I understand they are superb but paying Pounds and over seas shipping is too much. Also I understand these are Butane burners. With the Accucraft, would I need to get it hooked up with an r/c control unit to drive it? What would should I know here in terms of operation and such? I have track already and rolling stock. Thanks again.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

What is your scale? I like 1:32. Accucraft makes some great intro locos. Ruby is a great starter, easy entery level loco, much fun. The S-12 is awesome, add a caboose and a few cars, choo choo. Find local steamers. attend local steam ups and talk to owners. Welcome to the brotherhood/sisterhood of steam, there is no going back.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

1:20.3, narrow gauge. I was thinking the Forney, two steps above the Ruby. I want something with a good level of detail. The Ruby is a bit plain for my tastes but I have heard good things about it. The Ida doesn't seem too bad though. Does anyone here have the Accucraft Forney or Baldwin Mogul by chance? Those are the two i am most interested it.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a plethora of NG folks out there. If that's your thing, go nutz. While I appreciate NG, there are many who can assist you. You can't go wrong with live steam no matter what.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

An Accucraft two cylinder Shay is a good first steamer...


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't believe the Forney is on the market yet. 
The 2-6-0 Mogul is an excellent choice. The prototype is quite small compared to say a K-27 so that might be a consideration for the rolling stock you will be hauling. I often run mine at shows on my portable track which has 5' and 6' radius curves (12'x16' overall) and on my former garden railway with 5' radius curves and it does really well so it has great potential for the space you are thinking of utilizing for your railway. I generally haul a short string of old Bachmann cars (1:22.5), repainted and converted to metal wheels, which I've had since '94 or so, real ratty looking. 
One thing that appeals to me about the Mogul is that the fuel tank is in the cab so there is no connection between loco and tender except a coupler which simplifies operation some. 
As Tom 1 said, the Accucraft Shay is an excellent loco as well. 
There are lots of live steamers all over the state of Florida who would be helpful to you climbing your learning curve. I'm sure some will respond here. 
I sure enjoy my live steamers, 
Tom 3


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the Accucraft 2cyl Shay, Mogul and 4-4-0 All are great running locos. All perfect for the beginner. You can also look at the Roundhouse Fowler, its under 2,000 US and a superb runner. I know a possibility of a used Roundhouse Forney for sale if interested. Any Roundhouse runs like a swiss watch. 

Most of the locos are self contained to the engine. There is a gas valve that controls the fire, and a throttle with a J-bar for direction. If you are a small circle for now and pretty level no need for RC. Live steam small rod engines dont like big grades like 3-4%, a geared loco will just go up and down no issue.

You can also search used - Accucraft C-16 for 1700.00 among a few others.

http://www.steamup.info/swapshoplisting.html


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

After asking for a lot of advice here, and getting a lot of great suggestions, I got my first live steam loco at the ECLSTS in late. I ended up just getting an Accucraft Ruby, which has been exactly what everyone said--a great loco to start out on, and a great runner, within limits, once it's been tinkered with a little. I had a really great time with it. You can do a search for "ruby" and follow the progress of a fellow newbie.


Because my layout was built around an existing garden, and for electrics, it's less than ideal for live steam, so I needed to install remote control. I scratch built a little tender to put the remote receiver and batteries in. Everyone recoommends the Shay as a great engine if you have grades to deal with


I'm still trying to figure out what I want for a second live steamer. My inclinations are more towards 1/32 or 1:29


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Steven... welcome back to the forums. 
My personal opinion would be to go for either an Accucraft 4-4-0[/b],[/b] either NCNG or SPC #3... 





















or one of the 2-6-0's[/b][/b] in the NCNG paint scheme.








[/b] 

All of these are gorgeous models in something other than basic black, run very well at nice slow speeds, and are very easy to operate. R/C is unnecessary provided you keep grades to a minimum. Both the 4-4-0 and the 2-6-0 will run on R3 radius curves and look okay doing so (broader curves are always desirable regardless if you have the space). Both feature a good amount of detail for the prototype modeled. Both have good reasonable run times, are butane fired, and are as easy to operate as any live steamer (including a Ruby). Best of all, both are within your specified price range.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

hey streve im a newbie too-recently bought an lgb-aster frank s-i might suggest that unless you already know live steam-that you not sell until you live with it a while-they take more time -they are different-they ARE less convenient to run than electircs and imho its not an either or choice 

i am enjoying my loco but it has a prep list and procedure-i will buy anohter -probably a roundhouse darjeeling or fowler within a year or so- 

i have gotten good at steaming up -there are limits -consider wind-rain-etc-elctrics dont care- 

evrytime i run-i tighten scres and bolts-lube the entire engine-add steam oil-load butane-fill with distilled water-get it lighted-up to pressure-clear the cylinders -then i get to add cars and run-on my best day-totla 28 minutes before im out water-the repeat the process-FYI-sounds fun yes-but not if you just want a run-or dont feel like being entirely engaged int eh process-and i have to montior gas pressure and add warm water as the butane burns(probably unique to my engine type however) 

i suggest you buy a high quality easy to steam SIMPLE loco to start-as they can be really complex (and expensive) 

try living with it first-its kinda like the difference between having a easy to prepare meal and a gourment prep-you just cant run live steam as readily- 

read the southern steam site and the sidestreetbanner site -read reviews-watch videos on youtube to watch a steam up-not being condescending-itll just make you better understand why you might wish to keep your locos for a while 

otoh-having a nice flat patio will be a boon -live steam likes level-unless you have rc-i dont-i run around and tweak the engine as needed


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## Bruce (Jan 3, 2008)

Steven, where in Florida are you located? I'm in Broward County. I have a small 75-80 ft of track garden railway and a few livesteamers. 
I'm with Dwight, the engines above are a good choice for your price range. The best thing is that the 4-4-0 and the new 2-6-0 (the more expensive one) have a water sight glass meaning you can keep it under steam longer with a 
goodall valve. 
If your not sure about livesteam yet, try a less expensive engine like a Ruby/Ida. Also check out Regner. They have a number of easy line engines that are under 1000. 

Bruce


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd give some serious thought to the UK narrow gauge. It runs on 32 mm track. Roundhouse makes quite a few to fit it, including the Fowler-you can get it in a more detailed look also. Here is their web site. http://www.16mm.org.uk/


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

(1) If you can make it to Tallahassee June 20th, there will be at least half a dozen of us running live steam -- 4 tracks, no waiting: http://www.bbmra.org/show.html 

(2) And don't overlook the Roundhouse Sammie, those great big Roundhouse 9/16 cylinders, with a very reliable gas fired system, in an American outline in the mid-$700 range. Mine will happily pull 38 axles on a two foot radius or run 45 minutes with no load -- For a little more money, it is a lot more engine than a Ruby (and little risk of loss since there is a ready resale market). 

I also run Accucraft (Shay, Edrig,Ruby), Crickets (two), a Jane , a Cheddar boat, and have coveted many others, but you can't get better quality or better running than this, at any price. The only drawback is slip eccentric valve gear -- push it forward to run forward, back to run back, which you won't notice unless you try the fairly rare sport of live steam shunting. Indeed I recently bought another Roundhouse Basic engine, the pot boilered Millie, largely because I have had such good fun with Sammie. 

Just a thought -- your hobby, your money, your decision. 

Regards, Mike


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, 
If you're not in to building kits, the Accucraft 4-4-0 is a great running engine,,, and as you can see by the pics that Dwight shared a really nice model. I have one and it fired right up out of the box with no problems. But if you want to take some time and get to know a steam engine, I would also recommend the Ruby kit. You learn a lot from your building a kit, a lot that you might miss just opening up the box of a new 4-4-0 and running it.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By Bruce on 04/24/2009 8:43 AM
Steven, where in Florida are you located? I'm in Broward County. I have a small 75-80 ft of track garden railway and a few livesteamers. 
I'm with Dwight, the engines above are a good choice for your price range. The best thing is that the 4-4-0 and the new 2-6-0 (the more expensive one) have a water sight glass meaning you can keep it under steam longer with a 
goodall valve. 
If your not sure about livesteam yet, try a less expensive engine like a Ruby/Ida. Also check out Regner. They have a number of easy line engines that are under 1000. 

Bruce 


North Broward so not too far. I'll have to think about your offer and I do appreciate it. The Tallahassee meet sounds interesting. Thanks all for the advice. I also found these two videos on youtube that show the basic operation pretty well. The 20th is a Saturday and I have that day off from work. Tally is a long drive from Broward but for one day I 'may' be able to do it.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLblRBwg2lQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM6jWPz0CcQ&feature=related

I'm still leaning towards the Accucraft line. Roundhouse is good too but again the price difference. i did see that Fowler for sale in the classifieds by the way. i may need to check it out but any purchases I make will be put on hold until I've been in the place for about a month or so which should be around late July or so that all should be settled in. Thanks for the kind replys. I will definitely look into it. I also did look at Regner but couldn't find the manufacture's website. Truthfully, when I buy a product regardless of what kind of hobby its for, i want it to be from a manufacturer with a good service department, perferably in the US incase I have any issues with the ability to get replacement parts if needed.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

One of the things that stopped me from looking harder at the Sammie is the lack of a reverse--the need to physically push it back to get it to start backwards. I can see that in most ways it's a better loco than the Ruby, but I just did a short running session with my Ruby where I backed it up to a cut of cars, ran it around a few times, and then backed the cars onto their siding, all by remote control, and that's pretty cool. 

If I had an all elevated railway I'd probably care less about the lack of a reverse. I'm still pretty tempted by the Sammie.


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Steven, 

We will have a variety of Accucraft and Roundhouse locomotives for you to check out in June if you can make it up to Tallahassee. I think one crazy guy even has a live diesel! 

Bob Pope


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 04/24/2009 9:50 AM

I also did look at Regner but couldn't find the manufacture's website. Truthfully, when I buy a product regardless of what kind of hobby its for, i want it to be from a manufacturer with a good service department, perferably in the US incase I have any issues with the ability to get replacement parts if needed.



Regner is imported to the US by The Train Department: http://www.traindept.com . Ken provides excellent service and has supported my Konrad very well. Don't count them out just because they're overseas.

I started with a Roundhouse Fowler and still love it. It runs great, first time, every time. Although an Australian prototype, it can easily be Americanized. (Don't count out Roundhouse because of the currency issue, either. Just deal with a US dealer and they take care of those hassles. The GBP is about $1.47 today, for pricing purposes.)


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I would also suggest you take a look at the AML 1/29th scale 0-6-0. It's my second live steam locomotive, first was a 2 cyl Shay, and I absolutely love it. For the street price of 1,000-1,200, the fidelity to scale is remarkable. Easy to steam and has a very nice heft about it by virtue of its size. I've pulled 10 USA Trains cars with it on 10 ft diameter curves with no difficulties. I plan on brining to this Sunday's steamup in Randolph, MA ...


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Steven..............Only one engine will do all you are looking for.....great runner, easy on the $$$, good looking and will take sharp curves...........AML 0-6-0
http://www.americanmainline.com/loco-USRA-LS.htm

I believe the sponsor of the forum can deliver one to your house !!!!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Steven, 

Since you said you wanted 1:20.3, I would suggest the Accucraft 2 cyl Shay is hard to beat. It has reasonable steam consumption and is easily customized. Any geared loco liked the Regner line or the Cricket would also be appropriate--nice slow, powerful and controllable running. 

If you want to go rod engine, I would suggest you steer clear of the small diameter cylinders of ones like the Ruby and derivatives, because they just don't run as nicely at slow speeds compared to something like a Roundhouse engine with their bigger cylinders. Have you looked at making a Roundhouse Billy kit? That was my first live steamer and it's a fantastic little beast. I also agree with Mike that the Roundhouse Sammy is a good running economical model. 

I guess the last comment I have is to look at the long term value of the loco--if you want your Great-Grandchildren to be able to play with it someday, then the price becomes less important compared to quality, rebuildability, and long term support. 

Good luck with it! 
Keith


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

One other factor to go along wth the 1:20 - Narrow Gauge locomotives. If you are interested in more modern standard gauge steam you will have to invest beyond the 1:20 to include either/or 1:32, 1:29 . In other words do you have a desire to "model" your experiences related to any given era, region of the RR world or certain operational applications-these should also be considered given that all the present manufacturers have high quality products and services.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll run through my experience with the Ruby, for good and bad. I have not had it very long, so don't take me for an expert



The good: it's cheap, simple and it's easy and fun to modify. There is a lot of info out there about it. If you modify it, you don't have to worry that you are destroying a family heirloom. It makes an attractive small loco


The bad: Short running times (can be improved a little); relatively weak puller (can be improved a little); tends to run too fast (same)



When I got it I had never run a live steam loco. On my layout, which has some stiff grades, it ran at two speeds, "wicked fast and about to derail" and "stalled on a grade." The burner ran similarly at two speeds: "welding torch" and "gas leak." Part of that was my inexperience




I did some reading. There's a TON of info out there about the Ruby


First off, they need to break in a bit. By the third or fourth running, the speeds were more reasonable. But it was pretty clear I was going to need remote control to manage grades which electric locos managed with little or no trouble


1. I modified the safety valve to run at a higher pressure, from the factory preset 20 psi to 40 psi. BIG difference! It now had the OOMPH to make it up steeper grades at reasonable speeds. It's an easy modification, but I also bought an adjustable safety valve from Royce which I haven't used yet


2. Added a Goodall valve, which lets you add water to a hot boiler. This allows you to have much much longer running sessions. Some locos come with one already, or with a check valve which allows the same thing


3. Reversed the eccentrics. This is an easy modification that sounds like it's going to be complicated, but wasn't. It further improved the power and speed


4. Added remote control. By this point, the Ruby ran very nicely--it would make it up the steepest grades on my layout and could even pull a few cars.


5. Improved the burner. After much tinkering, and some good advice from here, I ended up adding a brass sleeve and a mesh screen to the burner, which quieted it down and made it much more controllable while increasing run times




In the meantime, I did a bunch of cosmetic modifications which were a lot of fun. I made a little tender to house the RC system. Now it looks like this:












If I'm attentive with the remote, it will run at reasonably slow speeds on my whole layout while pulling a few cars. I made a movie of it but the movie doesn't show good slow speed running, because I could not run the camera and the loco at the same time. It'll run for ten minutes or so before I need to refuel, depending on the weather and what's being pulled. I ran it today with two 1:29 freight cars, and it had wheel spin, which suggests maybe I should add some weight and maybe I'll get better performance



So what's my conclusion? It's a great loco but it's not going to run great out of the box. It take some tinkering but the tinkering is a lot of fun. It's easy to modify. It's a lot of bang for the buck. In the end, I think, you are still at the "low end" of live steam. It's never going to pull much and it's never going to be great at low speed. Pretty good, but not great. It does not have insulated wheels, so it shorts the track and I can't run my lighted passenger cars and etc. But I'm extremely happy with it, and thinking the whole layout would be more fun if it was all live steam, all the time


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

One final thought -- and not a sales pitch -- it's your money --- 

If you spend $1,000 on an engine and never run it, you threw the money away. If you run it once, it costs you $1,000 to run it. If you run it 100 times, it costs you $10 to run it. IF you run it 1,000 times . . . If you really are using your engine(s), they work out a lot cheaper than golf clubs or a boat. And really, you can get most of your money back (sometimes a profit) on a resale. 

Regards, Mike 

PS Bob himself is the loon with the live diesel -- or is it two now? We tolerate all kinds up him


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I've thought of Shays and other geared locos. They are great for grades, slow, speeds, and and tight turns. Though that's also a reason why not to like them. They are only good for slow speeds, grades, and tight turns! They are great locos but I perfer rod driven, more traditional locos. Most of the rolling stock I have 90% of it, is all Denver and Rio Grande 1:22.5 from HLW or Bachman of the late 19th century era which is where I want to stay. Possibly early 20th century but more or less late 19th century Colorado 3ft gauge. Thanks for the advice again. I like the 0-6-0 but I'm not a fan of eastern Standard gauge. I do like it but most of my colleciton is centered around D&RG narrow gauge. That's probably why I like the 2-6-0 soo much. Now as to the Ruby, I'd get the one step up the Ida which I assume isn't much different other than looking like a 0-4-0 Porter. I actually own a LGB 0-4-0 Porter so I'm fond of that style of locos. The layout would be R2 and R3 curves. No R1, never use those any more. So it would be a smaller loco. I have an electric 2-6-0 right now that can take those kind of curves okay. My Bachman 4-4-0 American is okay on them. I'll have to think it over. I may get a used Roundhouse too, depends. I will probably shop the classifieds here first before buying new anyway.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Good luck getting a LS Mogul around your SHARP curves.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Steven, you might want to go to the website of the Ridge Live Steamers in Dundee. They have a very nice raised G1 live steam track, in addition to the ride-on railroad. If you visit, ask for a friend of mine, Bruce Rauch ([email protected]), who would be glad to show you the club. 
Also, why don't you contact Mike Albert (407-647-2244), Norm Saley ([email protected]), or Bill Finegan (386-943-9691), any of which should be able to fill you in on other live steamers in the area. 
I model in 1:20.3 and have an Accucraft Shay, their 4-4-0, and a Roundhouse 2-6-2, all of which are fine running engines. While the 2-6-2 is beyond your stated budget, Roundhouse has numerous lower priced fine running engines. 

Larry


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Steve, my ol' buddy, it sure has been a while. 
I think you're well on top of where your interests lie in live steam, and the style you're after. Knowing also your background and interests in loco styling, I think you would be hard pressed to go past either of the Accucraft 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 in original paint styles. Accucraft are the only ones that make low cost versions of these 1870s beauties. 

Your first hand made locomotive build was a small 1:24 scale mogul - the D&RG Class 40, which was one type of a large fleet of similar locos built for operation all over the US. Accucraft chose this same prototype for their live steam 2-6-0, but began with the modern version (the Nevada Shortline 2-6-0 now at Sacramento, originally built as one of the colourful dark green 1879 Utah & Northern 2-6-0s - hope to do the asbuilt style sometime!) 

Anyway Accucraft are soon to release their first D&RG version of the Live steam 2-6-0 - 'Poncha' from 1877 - she was one of the last batch of Class 40s built. Painted Lake, lined in gold, Style 49, this was her 'as built' style. Poncha has larger gas tank (in the tender) and water glass in the cab. 










Get a real good close up view of this thing - check out the detail of the Style 49 graphics, wheels, domes, headlight etc:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/G10%20234.jpg

Poncha is announced, but not yet available. I dont know the delivery date as yet, probably late in the year. 
While the graphics and colour scheme for Poncha is way above previous mogul offerings, it also comes at a higher cost due to inflation etc, while the older NCNG version, not as decorative, but equally good mechanically, can be bought right now for less cost than Poncha is slated to be. 

If you're still into early D&RG, then the Accucraft 4-4-0 'Col. Boone', may also be the way to go - Col. Boone was the last of the wagontop 4-4-0s to be built for the D&RG in late 1880 (more 4-4-0s did follow her, but they were larger straight boilered versions). Also bult to style 49, but in gloss black, this one is just pure style. Col. Boone from the last batch of wagontop 4-4-0s, was the first of 3 4-4-0s built for the D&RG to be painted black. 










Its worth your while seeing these models close up for an idea of size. 1:20.3 models are considerably larger than you'd imagine, and a LOT bigger than 1:24. Both of these models will still look fine pulling your Bachmann D&RG Coaches, but are just a lot bigger than the 1:24 Hartland and D&RG 2-6-0 models you owned. 
You cant run either of these live steam models on less than 4' radius curve (8' diameter). Thats a minimum of LGB R3, but I would not run the 4-4-0 on R3- she needs the full 4' radius is slightly larger than R3. The Mogul will do R3 fine. 

Out of the two locos, they are on par in terms of reliability and style, however the mogul is a slightly stronger puller, and paces itself well, its not a racehorse, and easy to control. 

Good luck, 
David.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

You would have a much easier chance of getting parts from Regner or Roundhouse than Accucraft. Accucraft is known to only have patrs available from their damaged locos or a few set aside for parts.

Regners site is in German only = http://regner-dampftechnik.de/

You can use Zgoogle to translate it for you too. 

The regner dealer in the US is Ken Johnson http://www.traindept.com/index.html


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Nice to see I'm remembered Dave. I hope life is good on the other side of Earth. Well thanks for the advice. The terrace is 186 square feet so R3 LGB should be fine all the way around. I'll need to buy one more box of the stuff but other than that, it will be fine. The coaches I have are all HLW 1:24th. If they look a tad small, well that's okay. That can be changed in time. I'm a man of many hobbies. I'll probably get the 2-6-0 and then a Ida for a swticher. I'll also need to get some R3 switches. The terrace it self is large so a modest circle with a small yard should be possible without a problem. Oh Dave, I'll probably get the Rio Grande Southern version. I like its paint job a bit more and it's a hundred or two less money. Same engine and it also comes with the tender butane tank. 

Some of the Renger locos look really good but I'm not a huge fan of German locos. I like their shay and lumberjack though. I may have to look into it. It is too bad the US dealer doesn't post prices for them on the website.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

Prices ARE on the train department website. Click on Prices/Ordering and you'll find them. 
I have a Willi, Konrad and Lumberjack all of which I find to be excellent runners. 
Tom


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