# What tools should I get for a lathe?



## noela (May 22, 2008)

WOW! Thank you so much for all your help on my last few questions. I have now decided that a lathe is the way to go for the things that I want to do.
I am now interested in what would be the basic tools I would need for this lathe to get started. It looks as if both companies have complete packages that can save some money, but I also understand that I may need to supplement the stuff that comes with them.
I will be using the lathe initially for such things as turning axles to fit ball bearings, making axles, tuning wheels and boring out journals. I don't think I can afford the CNC stuff yet, but being able to add it later might be a plus, don't have an unlimited budget, so I have to spend wisely. I have accumulated quite a bit of rolling stock over the years, and I want to be able to produce things en mass.
Again, thank you for all your help and suggestions.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I am going to purchase one for the same reasons. I spent time at Sherline describing the exact things I wanted to do. 

On turning wheels, one suggestion is get a set of "soft jaws" for the chuck, 3 jawed. Then you can put a slight taper in them so you can grip the wheel tread. (cutting the flange) 

Another thing to get is a compound slide, since I will want to cut / finish the tread taper (When holding the wheel the other way) 

Another thing is a "blank mandrel" so, in my case, I can machine a taper the matches the axle of an Aristo loco and mount a wheel there. 

All the other stuff is just the standard "good package" stuff, like live centers, selection of collets, etc. 

On the Sherline, I do not need spacer blocks to turn 2" wheels, you might need that on the Taig... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

For the initial work you describe, the standard stuff that comes with those lathes is probably enough for a good start. As you get practiced up, figure out what you need and get it when you need it. One decision you need to make is whether to use carbide cutting tools or High Speed Steel (HHS). Carbide are very hard, come pre-sharpened and ready to use and will last probably a lifetime. However, they come in a limited number of shapes and may not do the job you want. Once they get dull, you can't resharpen them. HHS tools are blank and you have to grind them yourself. They are less durable than carbide and require sharpening from time to time. It is also kind of an art to grind them. But you get the exact tool you need for your job. 

I use HHS simply because carbide was not widely available back in the olden days. I am used to them now. Whatever you decide to use, don't buy cheap stuff. They are not that expensive, so get good quality. 


Many of your lathe accessories are ones you make yourself. Especially for wheel turning. Stub mandrel jigs are the way to go. They are much faster and more consistent that trying to line up a wheel in a chuck. He is an example:











The axle hole in the wheel just slips over the stub and the wheel is fixed to the jig. This particular one turned some home-made drivers:










Here's another stub mandrel jig with a solid wheel. The head of a large bolt is used to secure the wheel. 











Shop-made jigs and mandrels open up a whole variety of things you can do. Here's a few I made:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/Jigs.JPG

Trueing an axle is a straight forward turning job. For production, don't change the tool setting, Just feed longitudinally. Clean up with a fine file and polish with emory cloth.










I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest you get a copy of one of Kozo Hiraoka's books. Either his Climax, Pennsy Switcher or Heisler books. You may never build one of his engines, but he is, by far, the premier authority in hobby lathe work.


----------



## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

A drill chuck for the tailstock and some center drills and drill bits....and a few reamers. A laser center / edge finder is a handy little gizmo to put in the drill chuck too! 

Johnny


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The thing I called a "blank mandrel" is what you call a "stub mandrel"... I don't know the lingo, but that's what they have at Sherline for sale... Sherline also has a book by the owner of the company that is supposed to be good... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## noela (May 22, 2008)

Thanks Greg,
Where does one get the "soft Jaws" for the chuck. Do you prefer the 3 jawed vs. the 4 jawed chuck? I will be doing work with tubing, is there that much difference with the pressure from the 3 vs. 4 jaw on the material. I also tried to find "blank mandrel" but have had no luck, where and what is it. I'm really new at this and I want to learn as much as I can before jumping in. Where are you going to buy? I don't want to use eBay, but I have noticed that there are several dealers with quite a differnce in prices for what seems to be the same product.
Thank you again.

Noel


----------



## noela (May 22, 2008)

Bob,
Thank you. Your explanation is great, as are your photos. Hopefully in the future I can get as good as you.

Noel


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"Soft Jaws" are an option you can order from Sherline... use that terminology. Get an extra set. For doing wheels and axles, my opinion is that 3 jaws are fine. 4 jaw are usually for irregular items or to really dial in an object, but it takes more time. I think 3 jaw ones are probably fine for starters... I will probably buy a 4 jaw when I need it. 

Interesting about pressure on the tubing... logic would dictate that a 4 jaw "synchronized" would probably have less pressure for the same overall friction. Sherline has the "blank mandrel" in stock... that's the terminology they used when I was there. I am going to the factory which is about 3 miles from my home and buy it there, there ARE no discounts or places to buy at a discount, only the packages. 

You might read the other lathe threads, just search for lathe. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Noel, 

I find that an independent 4-jaw chuck is a must-have tool for my Sherline. When you are making small precision pieces that require different operations where you are taking it in and out of the chuck/vise a lot, with the 4-jaw you can be put it back exactly on center again so your runout errors don't multiply. You can get one of the basic magnetic dial indicators pretty cheap these days too. The other big advantage of the 4-jaw is the extra gripping power. Holding things rigidly becomes even more important when you are trying to cut really hard materials so they don't chatter. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You sold me Keith... I'm getting one in addition to the standard "synchronized" 3 jaw.... 

Keith, have you an opinion on a "synchronized" 4 jaw? Just curious... don't even know if it is avail... 

More insight on any stuff for the Sherline is appreciated, I'm making my shopping list. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

If it hasn't been mentioned already I would recommend the optional back cutoff bit and post. It is thinner than the one that comes with the regular 6 bit set and waistes less material. It also seems to cut better. I got mine from Rutland tools. It cost a little more, but the bit is much thinner than the taig cutt off bits.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/28/2009 3:22 PM
The thing I called a "blank mandrel" is what you call a "stub mandrel"... I don't know the lingo, but that's what they have at Sherline for sale... Sherline also has a book by the owner of the company that is supposed to be good... 

Regards, Greg

I don't really know what they call them either. I was never good with names.

BTW, was just looking at Sherline's Tip page. Lots of good stuff in there. That cone mandrel looks like a good idea.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg,

I have no experience with the syncronized 4-jaw, but it would be more of a luxury item than a must-have, that's for sure. If you were working with square stock all the time it would be nice.
Also--have you bought your lathe yet? If not, I'd highly recommend you get the long bed version so you have more room.
Here's a picture of my lathe with the 4-jaw and the dial indicator I use. Note that I put the lathe on an aluminum plate, then bolted a little square steel plate for the magnetic base to work on--very handy for moving the lathe around. I used an old innertube as a gasket between the lathe and the aluminum plate for vibration damping and so it wouldn't warp it.









Now one of the best things I ever did was to make this little hand tightener for the tailstock--makes it quick and easy to undo and move in/out without having to find the allen key every time:









As far as other tools for your shopping list...there's the vertical milling column, mill vise, flycutter.... the list goes on and on! 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Keith! 

When I was there I posed the question this way: "Is there any reason I should NOT buy the long version"... they told me in many years they only had one person complain who bought a long lathe and wished he bought the short version.... said his arm got tired reaching "way over to the right" to the tailstock. 

The reinforcing and casting itself is beefier on the long version... and you can "use up space" pretty quickly on the short version... the people there were incredibly helpful... 

That hand tightener looks like a brilliant idea, the hex key was a bit of a pain... did you machine the handle, drill a hole and force a hex shaft into the round hole? 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

makes it quick and easy to undo and move in/out without having to find the allen key every time:
Myself, I just leave an allen wrench stuck into the tailstock all the time.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but that brass handle has a "cool factor" of 2x I think! 

I'll be lucky to make scrap the first time I'm turned loose on it! 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad you are going for the long bed...it's amazing how much space gets eaten up by a big chuck, the part itself, steady rest if it's a long shaft, and if you are drilling in the end then the drill itself plus the tailstock. 
That reminds me...make sure you get some center-drills if you haven't already got them on your list! 

The little handlever is made out of round brass stock, threaded into the tailstock, and the little side piece is threaded into the first part. The other benefit is that you don't have a lot of leverage, so you are unlikely to overtighten anything. There are times when the tailstock will slip but when that happens I'm usually getting too rough with the drill pressure! 

One other item that you should consider making--maybe your first project-- is a little tool that helps you set your toolbit to the right height--dead centerline. Sherline does sell something like that (have a look to see what I mean), but I made one out of aluminum, drilled mine out, and used a t-nut so I could snug it up by hand on the cross-slide to hold it while I adjusted the tool height via the rocker tool post. When you are switching bits a lot it comes in extremely handy. 

Keith


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gregg,

If it hasn't already been mentioned, get a nice, crisp 6" mill ******* file for breaking edges & whatnot, & some cutting oil and a handful of acid core brushes to apply same. Cut the bristles about halfway down so they're stiff enough to apply the cutting oil _and_ schlepp the chips off the workpiece. And get a can to put the oil in, to the depth of about 1/4". There'll be less to clean up when you spill the can. And you will, with some regularity.

Also, here's something to think about: by making your own jigs/fixtures, you learn a lot about your machine (and yourself) while building a base of skills before you ever start on 'real' projects.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys, 

I just thought of another 'essential' tool, that has proven itself to be invaluable over the years since I got my lathe. I use it to help square stuff up, measure from, pound on, solder on (pretend you never read that), and generally abuse with all sorts of tools.  
That reminds me of a saying about lathes: A lathe does not wear out, it is just destroyed. 

Back to the tool--it's a nice and quite inexpensive granite surface plate: 

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page....3513,51657


Keith


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ouch! the old machinist in me grunts. Um, why don't you get a cheap anvil from HF, or even a piece of RR track? Surface plates are for setup work, and are the flattest thing in the shop. I have a nicely made shop anvil from a piece of RR track, has a horn ground into it, and even a pritchel hole for swaging dies. I got it for $5 at a garage sale.

But hey, it's your tool.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't worry Les, I too have a 1' piece of heavy mainline rail for the heavy pounding!  
The more I think of that piece of granite, the more things I remember lining up on it...definitely one of my favourites. My all time favourite tool, though, is still a file. 

Keith


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

You mean like this?










I have several sizes. I also use them to solder with torch and as pounders to pound the ground when building concrete structures (firm base). I can't recall where I found them.











Spikes, i imagine, could be turned on a lathe. Unsure of the quality of the steel but I'm guessing it to be malleable


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SE,

Well, yeah, except that's a mighty unusual looking piece of rail. Not a T. Has it been worked on? Also note the radius for bending things over.

Oh, my friend ... Oh my ... if you want to be a Seriously Cool Machinist, please replace that claw hammer wtih a ball peen.









Actually, some folks hold that the steel in claw hammer faces is more brittle than a ball peen and tends to emit shrapnel when used as shown. I don't know, since I've never done it, and I highly doubt you're in any danger. (Thumbs, etc excluded.) It just looks ... ah ... well, ball peens are what you want for hammering metal.







Gives one that cool, in command, laid-back air. Or something.

Seriously, ball peens come in quite a range of sizes, from a few oz to a few pounds. As a modeller, you could live your entire life with a 10 oz or less. That rounded part (the Peen) is great for rounding down protruding short lengths of rod and making a rivet head.

Les


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Sorry 'bout the second post, but I got blinded by that claw hammer.









Steel RR spikes are in fact machinable. The blacksmithing guys turn 'em into knives (at great labor) and I suppose they'd hold an edge well enough. Dunno. Like most other mild-steel, the easiest way to work a piece is to anneal it: you heat it red, red hot and lay it aside to cool slowly. Air cool. Nothing critical, lay it on the ground and give it awhile to cool. Annealing makes the steel softer. Don't do it with thin flat stock as it wrinkles. Don't machine down to the last dimension, because if you want to reharden, you heat it to red, red hot and quench it. I'm not going into quench solutions: there are as many as there are guys who b'smith, and some of those receipes have got to be a health hazard. I use plain motor oil. I heartily doubt a bucket of water would be any better or worse, and surely more convenient.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 08 Jul 2009 03:36 PM 
SE,

Well, yeah, except that's a mighty unusual looking piece of rail. Not a T. Has it been worked on? Also note the radius for bending things over.

Oh, my friend ... Oh my ... if you want to be a Seriously Cool Machinist, please replace that claw hammer wtih a ball peen.









Actually, some folks hold that the steel in claw hammer faces is more brittle than a ball peen and tends to emit shrapnel when used as shown. I don't know, since I've never done it, and I highly doubt you're in any danger. (Thumbs, etc excluded.) It just looks ... ah ... well, ball peens are what you want for hammering metal.







Gives one that cool, in command, laid-back air. Or something.

Seriously, ball peens come in quite a range of sizes, from a few oz to a few pounds. As a modeller, you could live your entire life with a 10 oz or less. That rounded part (the Peen) is great for rounding down protruding short lengths of rod and making a rivet head.

Les










I can attest that claw hammers DO emit shrapnel if they strike another hammer or any other hardened material! 

I didn't do it, but the contractor I hired to build an addition on my house was attempting to pull an errant nail and used a second hammer to drive the claw on his hammer into the wood to get it under the nail head. He ended up with a small bit of metal in his abdomen right at the rib cage. The metal penetrated his Tee shirt and embedded itself in his skin but he refused to go to a doctor about it. He said it was kind of like a splinter and he would dig in out later at home.

YES, the warning sticker on a hammer is there for a reason! I am glad it didn't embed in someone's eye!


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I've seen a good few more claw hammers with chips out of the face than ball peens (though I've seen 'em). I never have actually chipped a hammer but I've sent a few splitting wedge 'mushrooms' flying.

And there was the Sears Gauranteed splitting maul that turned into three pieces when I whacked a wedge with it. One piece got my wife on the kneecap. Girls whine a lot, ever notice?









Left a helluva bruise. Wish it'd been me: I hated to see her limping around, fixing my supper....

Les


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. I never knew that. I only used the claw for small jobs like flattening this 14 ga Romex grounding wire to make some train parts. For larger jobs, I have been using 3 sizes of sledge hammers. I'm now wondering if they shatter as well. I use the mainline rail for big jobs. This is a funky looking rail and I really am wondering where it came from now. Before I got my weights and weight room, I used to use the different size rails to lift (weightlifting). 

I do have a ball peen and will use it from now on!!!! Thanks for the notice, as I admit to not using eye protection when doing some things manually (without spinning machines), but probably should do that. A wonder people in my father's generation usually had both eyes despite working on things that fly around. Come to think of it, they didn't wear safety harnesses either. 

As for the spike, thanks, Les, I've been meaning to try my hand on some of those and I'll be sure to drop a few in my BBQ grill next time I fire up some burgers (this weekend perhaps). 

Dave V


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Oh, btw, about 2 years ago, I was waiting for my VRE train at Crystal City VA and noticed that the CSX mainline (ex-RF&P) rails were made in 1940!!!! I couldn't believe it so I stooped down and took a photo. 

Imagine that. This rail saw WWII troops trains and steam engines right thru to big diesels. The rails were pulled shortly after this photo were taken but were in surprising good shape and are probably still in service. 

You'd think since they're made of steel they'd rust away. however, the sides, although rusty looking, probably have some sort of protective built on coating of asbestos or whatever falls out of trains (those tie plates in the photo look like they'd be good for my bottle jack shop press)


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

The thing with hammers is: control. It's difficult to control a heavy hammer for a light job. Yes, sledge hammers can shatter, just like any other tool can fail, it's just harder to make it happen. Cheap cast headed hammers are very bad for that. (You can look at the head and see the mould line. Or a 'slick' where it's been ground down. And the metal of the head looks grainy. Avoid those when possible.)

This 'safety' bit is overdone, in my NSHO. As I said, you aren't in any reasonably conceivable danger. Point of fact, I encourage your efforts to the max. I like to point out hazards where I think it will do any good. But they're just hazards, chances of the draw, so to speak, not sure to happen by a long shot, or I'd be blind a long time ago.

Having said that, safety glasses ... are a generational thing, kinda sorta. Were I you, I'd wear 'em for table sawing, circular sawing (my old Craftsman kicks chips right up in my face, so do others, but not so bad. Go figure). You don't need 'em for drill presses and lathe work and suchlike common tasks. Grinding, yes, definitely. One thing the old timers had was good glass in their regular glasses, today's are cheap, shatter prone, thin and often plastic. I spent $400 for a pair of industrial grade bifocals with a reasonably normal-looking safety frames back in the 80s when I switched and wore 'em on and off the job. Even those have tiny craters in 'em from grinding, mostly.

Try to make yourself learn to keep your eyes out of line with any rotating object. Head, too, BTW. Set up your work, then move your head aside a little. It throws a parallax error into your sight picture, but learn to compensate to reduce worry, and after you're set up anyway, it's no big thing.

On cooking the spikes in the grill. Don't do it with the meat, icky things are emitted _sometimes._ And, to get enough heat on the metal, you'll want to use a hair blower. You need good 'n red, to do any real good.

About the rust on the rails: being ferrous, some day they'll just be streaks in the ground to puzzle archeologists. But that'll be a looonng time. Consider the early Iron Age swords they dig up now and then. They look like **** but they're what? 3000 years old, in the ground. By the nature of heavy forgings, the rust coating that forms tends to protect the metal below. It's the acids in soil and today's rain that are hard on steel. And the cheap steel made today is prone to decay--rust & corrode, because almost all is made from recycled steel.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I bought a full face shield when I bought my radial arm saw many years ago and I am glad I did. A 2x4 kind of exploded one time when I was using a dado blade and it flung large chunks of wood all over. Several hit the face shield.

I also used the shield when I was using any power tool, but one time I found that using it kind of contributed to an eye injury. I had to drill a 3/4-inch hole overhead on a stairwell. I put on the shield as usual and I really kind of had to because the position I had to be in to do the drilling caused all the shavings to drop on me. When I was done and took off the shield some of the shavings fell off the shield head straps and into my face and I got a large chunk of wood in my left eye. The Doctor could not find it at first and sent me home with a patch over the eye. Later I went back and he managed to find it in a festering blister under my eyelid. That eye has never been the same since.

I no longer have the radial arm saw (sold it when I was divorced and moved to an apartment, drat!) but still have the face shield and and now that I have a house of my own and a metal working lathe and mill I use it regularly, but I don't usually have it on my head. Both machines can produce a fountain of shards when in use, but they seldom go more than a few inches from the point of tool contact. YET, they are often HOT!, or otherwise bothersome, landing on my hands working the X/Y adjustment wheels, so I lay the face shield over my hands. Sometimes I position it over the work area if the swarf is getting to be too wide spread and hitting farther up my arms or hitting my face.

For my mill, I replaced the tiny work shield that came with the machine, with a much larger one with curled edges to wrap around the sides a bit. Really helps to keep the chips under control!

See "Little Machine Shop" and "Mini-Lathe" and "Mini-Mill" dot com...

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Default.htm

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm

for more info about what can be done with these smaller machines to make them more useful and safer to use.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I only use a full-face shield with that circular saw, or working overhead.

I detest radial arm saws. I had to use a DeWalt Industrial for awhile at work, until I got promoted up and got rid of it and got a cast-iron 10" table saw. I even owned one of my own, being slow to learn, or something, and it came within a hair (literally) of eating my forearm. 

Full face shields probably ought to be recommended for grinders, but for milling and lathe work, I never needed 'em. For one thing, they tend to distort ever so slightly, and can cause one to miss something important. Or couse, I use only cheap HF ones.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

that's some story about the exploding wood. sorry to hear about the eye incident 

I have started to wear a heavy coat, full face shield and gloves when using my big table saw as I've exploded wood, saw wood fly when hit knot and so on. 

Why gloves? 

I had the table saw protective plexiglass and splitter on with all safety devices in place like suppose to and had a 2x4 explode with pieces that actually came back toward me. They couldn't hit me in the face b/c of the plexiglass so they took the lower route that hit my hand that was sliding the wood and splinters embedded in my hand and they also were black and blue. I suppose this is the worst thing that ever happened to me and I've learned to respect the machine and pay homage to it and so on


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Seems to be an epidemic of exploding wood. I only remember that happening once to me, but then, I'm gettin' old.

There are a few 'rules' of thumb--or should that be 'rules to save thumbs'?--that users of tablesaws ought to practice.

1) Don't saw through knots, unless they're small, like under dime-sized. If you do, beware. Or be careful to feed slowly. ALWAYS remove the core of a loose knot. It makes for a less exciting life.

2) Don't saw seriously cracked boards, if possible. If you must, be careful. Like water, saw blades take the path of least resistance. Where they can. These new-fangled sawblades with slots in 'em are bad for that.

3) Warped boards are notorious for pinching, and once that happens, lots of other things _can_ happen, like kickback and splintering.

4) Humongous-sized motors powering your saw are not necessarily your friend: 3/4 hp used to be thought extravagant, when most saws ran 1/2hp. True, the smaller diameter blades helped make this so. But I've seen advertised '2 hp motor!!' on a 10" saw. (Sears, who has been known to rate their motors creatively.) What you want is a saw blade/motor combo that, if it binds and the workpiece goes to pieces and slivers, you can hold and stall. Another reason why I don't like direct drive saws.

5) Feeding too fast. Why hurry?

6) A mis-set rip fence leading to either pinch or wander in the workpiece.

7) A second fence (made of 3/4" wood and clamped to the table), hold-downs of some sort clamped to the 'real' rip fence (you do have a wooden face board on it, don't you?) also help at times, especially with short pieces shoved through via pushstick or heel board. Featherboards came after my time, they're expensive thus highly recommended. 

8) Get a booklet on "How to get the most from your Table Saw". It's worth it.

I don't like anti-kickback devices. If they were well designed, it might be different. I've hooked a couple of boards on 'em, and caused myself grief, because they're so easily knocked out of line. The little claws rarely grab a well-planed board anyway. When they do, it's because you want to pull it backwards, for one reason or another.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Do any of you guys us a ordinary old fashion anvil? I was just wondering. What are you guys mounting these banging and smashing things to? 
Must be portable.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

My vise has a small (poorly formed) anvil head on one end, but for really pounding on something I have a short section of Railroad rail (about a 10 inch section of 40lb rail... thus the 10 inch section weighs only about 11 lbs). For the REALLY BIG pounding, I have a 3 ft section of 120lbs rail, (which means it weighs 120lbs!!!).

Now, you are going to ask "Where do you get railroad rail?" Right? 

The small section I got at an estate sale... (I know, 'Thanks for that useless bit of info!")

The larger section I got from a salvage yard. There had been some tracks torn up some 3 or 4 years earlier and the salvage yard was still cutting it up into 3-ft sections for shipping and I drove up and asked for some. Got 1 nice section for about $10.00... but that was 15 years ago! The price of scrap went through the roof a couple of years ago and lots of scrap yards cleaned house to cash in on what they had left laying about for years. So it may take some searching to find a yard that has some.

You might contact a local railroad office and ask about a hunk of rail (the worst they can do is tell you, "No"). The RRs replace rail periodically and may have some laying around that someone could torch off a 2 or 3-ft section for you (or it might already be to that length).

I also found a 1-inch long piece of rail at a place where the RR had replaced a bad section at a grade crossing and needed to slice off that much to make the new rail fit. They had just left it laying in the ballast beside the road for weeks, so I obsconded with it before some other non-appreciative individual did so. I intend to polish it up and mount it on a wood panel as some sort of "Presentation" plaque, but I haven't figured out what to present it for.

You might also check at a RR museum.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I just re-read your question and realized you asked what/how they are mounted.

The vise in mounted on my workbench with the mounting ears provided... when I pound on it, EVERYTHING on the work bench dances and some of it falls to the floor.

The small section of rail lays on the floor most of the time, but I can place it on the basement steps or carry it outside to lay on the driveway or a concrete pad in my back yard.

The 120lbs section lays on the floor and STAYS THERE; these days if I tried to make to be someplace else it would be ME laying on the floor.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I keep my larger rail outside; it might rust thru in 1000 years. 

Getting back to lathe's, do they make inexpensive (below $600) lathes that are good at making miniature bolts used in train construction. 

Also, out of curiousity, are miniature drill bits made by a lathe or casting or some sort of extruding process? 

Thanks


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By John J on 15 Jul 2009 05:40 PM 
Do any of you guys us a ordinary old fashion anvil? I was just wondering. What are you guys mounting these banging and smashing things to? 
Must be portable. 

John,

I use an old 'Mousehole' farrier's anvil for most of my serious work. It is very old, its weight being marked in 'stones'. Prob'ly 19th century. I don't do serious work anymore, so I don't use it. What I do use, to focus on the perceived intent of your question, is a piece of RR track that someone cut down to look like an anvil. It's mounted on a piece of 3" thick timber that is light, so I can pick it up easily. I gave $7 for it 20 years ago, just because I could see the manhours that went into making it. And it's no thing of beauty. I have a tiny little HF anvil that I use for pecking around on. Just the other day I bent an axle disassembling a R/C car, and laid it on there and pecked it about as straight as you can using that technique only. I have a Chinese vise, a BMF one, that has an anvil, and I sometimes use that, but not often. Vises are vise, anvils are anvils.

What might interest you is, I have two or three pieces of RR track of varying lengths. One of them could be yours. You'd have to pay the shipping from Missouri zip 63031 to wherever you are. And you'd have to pay me a $2 bill for either one. I collect that denomination for when I get old and feeble, so I can be assured of a steady supply of beer. I also have the very one you need, a piece of RR iron maybe 8" long. I haven't seen it for awhile, but I expect it to turn up one of these days. I just found my orange HF close-quarters drill that went AWOL las fall. (I get so tired after a tad of work, I just stuff my tools wherever, and forget.) I also have a handcranked blower, fresh rebuild, but never out of the crate.

Now, I'm gonna get all poetic 'n blacksmithy on you--the modern, perfumed ones, not the _real _ blacksmith guy who taught me, in exchange for turning his effing blower on demand. My great uncle, a farrier in Black Jack Pershing's Mexico trip. A True Blacksmith of Today does not 'bash around' on an anvil. It is to be worshipped. (For what they cost, they oughter be). Well, sometimes you have to beat the snot out of something stuck, that's why God revealed the anvil. I mean, the big, 300# and up ones. My twinsy little 120# is for horseshoes, wagon fittings, and the like.

Now, if I was a rich 'n famous guy like you, I'd go for a BMF anvil, an old one. Figure on paying $3/lb. They might have gone up, they might have gone down because of the economy, but that's a starting figure. For the kind of work you been asking on around here, you need rugged stuff. You must be young 'n hearty. Or, Old 'n hardy, which would make me jealous. I'm old 'n halfway feeble.

I have my "Mousehole" anvil mounted on a butt cut off'n a log big enough to hold it. I forged up the loops to hold it down outta a couple of U joint brackets. Drew a point, sharpened 'em a tad, tempered and drew it, and put 'em into that log with a 3# sledge. That was mabye 15 years ago, and I noticed the log has rotted away from one of 'em. But remember, I used to teach classes on b'smithing (for$$) point of fact, $50/hr. So it got some use. Then I had my teenaged (back then) son and his pals whaling away at it, and learning, so I reckon there's one tool I got my money out of. My son was one helluva good striker. You can't do a lot of good work w/o a good striker. Except for these pansies on BS boards who specialize in 'ornamental' ironwork. Gimmie a break.

One thing, John: you get yourself an avil, you want to mount it about where your backbone flexes naturally from off the true vertical. These here sites/books say, "OH, knuckle high when standing straight." Well. Go ahead, if you want to. Now, if you want to be comfortable, find out where the natural part of your lower back starts to bend--the part that hurts when it does--and make that anvil tall enough to hit/peck on without having to do that. A lot of b'smithing is shoving metal where you want it, not whaling the **** outta something with an 8" sledge.

I just finished snaking out a sewer to the kitchen sink. It had two clogs. I'm gonna go get me another beer, I believe.

Les









Everyone needs something to believe in. I believe I'll have another beer.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semp,

You'd be amazed at the Neat Stuff you can find just walking the rails. NOT in a yard! I found a whole knuckle coupler head, once. Weighed a whole lot more than I was ready to move alone, and since I lived in the City, all my buddies were wimps. Might still be there. RR's are sloppy about cleaning up after themselves.

Me, I'd go to a 'regular' flea market, one that's there every weekend or on a regular schedule, and 'put in an order'. You say, "I'm lookin' for a piece of RR Iron. I'd pay X for it." If 'X' is fair, you'll have one if a few weeks.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 16 Jul 2009 06:20 AM 
I keep my larger rail outside; it might rust thru in 1000 years. 

Getting back to lathe's, do they make inexpensive (below $600) lathes that are good at making miniature bolts used in train construction. 

Also, out of curiousity, are miniature drill bits made by a lathe or casting or some sort of extruding process? 

Thanks 

To the best of my ancient wisdom, drill bits are machined. They aren't cast, for sure. But today, who knows? Stay away from HF drill bits.

Yes, they do, IMNSHO, make decent lathes for RR model work, which includes making bolts for train construction. I own one: a HF 7x10. I haven't cleaned it up yet, and I have a whole thread on what you need to do to one of those to make it reasonably useful.

WARNING!! Free advice to follow.

If I were you, I'd run, not walk, down to the HF store and get that little bitty $250 jobbie they offer that doesn't have half-nuts. So you can't cut threads. But a button die is a sin only among Real Machinists, and I've seen quite a few chase threads with a die, and suspect that if no one was looking, they'd cut the fine threads 0-90, 0-72, etc, with a button die. W/O a lathe of the Hardinge quality, it's quite difficult, though it can be done to prove a point. I am an old retired T&DM, and I plan to use dies for all those fine-thread apps. Because I no longer feel like I have to prove a damn thing to anyone. (Unless they're offering to pay my rent).

Take a different approach to this discussion: People are buying Sherline and Taig lathes, little, tiny things with aluminum castings, for pete's sake, and because 'everybody' is doing it, it's The Way To Go. And the prices for those little joys dictate an industrial-sized container of Vaseline. That's not counting the price of the tooling once you have their lathes. (Also known as 'once the hook is set'.)

I just found out your ~50, so what you probably want is what I want, a good machine that you can chuck up a piece of brass and turn out a given piece.

NO lathe you buy is going to do that. Not even a Hardinge (which I misspelled in another post). You've got to scale the learning curve, no matter what you buy. Using a lathe successfully requires patience, reading, trying, and retrying. The hardest part I had was learning to grind my own tool bits which I recommend you do, too, because once you can do that, you're no longer a slave to the companies who sell the specialized bits you'll sometimes want--in other words, you'll be your own master.

Get yourself a copy of South Bend's "How to run a lathe". Get it before you get your lathe, you'll learn a lot just by reading.

The reason I keep pushing HF is, they're cheap for what you get. I expect Sherline and Taig are very good little machines too, plus they have (or offer--depends on whether their support is any good) a support team to help you out. That may be the one factor which might sway you toward Sherline. (I don't know if Taig supports their machines.) I think Micromark supports theirs, you need to find out.

Look, everything I know I learned by doing, or by watching others come to grief and avoiding that--and I doubt you're less of a man than I.

THere are two websites that are dedicated to the little HF machines, get on them and read, read, read.

If you're like me, go lay down your money for the lathe of your choice. You'll be smarter, later. Maybe smarter good, maybe smarter bad, but you'll have that much more knowledge.

It amazes me how many people today say, "Oh, go down to the community college and take a course." Yeah, right. Where'd that knowledge come from before there were community colleges, and who says those guys teaching it know what they're talking about?

There is no way I can justify that little cheap HF lathe I mentioned. But if I had the $$ to pi*s away, and didn't already have a 7x10 still in cosmoline and a Craftsman I loathe, I'd have two more beers 'n another shot of schnapps (I'm half Kraut, that's a big reason I hated the raw sendoff Korm got--but I digress) and I'd go buy it because it's so doggone cute. One thing, I ain't takin' nothing outta this world when I leave it.

But hey, it's _your_ choice. Lots of folks on this board whom I respect, like Dwight, have Sherlines/Taigs. No one admits to a Chinese lathe save the guys who've dated one seriously, and if you listen, they're coming off from experience.

One last observation: all these little lathes are essentially watchmaker's lathes. Watchmakers, we all imagine, know their stuff. I doubt I'm far off the mark with that observation. I seem to remember Taig/Sherline ads that allude to that, leaving a feeling that, if you had one of their machines, you too would have respect. It isn't the machine that makes the craftsman so much as the other way around.

Les









I love to clean sewers. It gives me a reason to drink.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

SE18

First off understand that I didn't & still don't know much about using a lathe, however, when David Fletcher started the MLS MasterClass 2002 - Building a Mason Bogie, I decided that I'd like to try something that I had never done before, that being scratch building a model locomotive.

Well, I decided that I might just find a lathe & mill to be of use, so I looked around and ran across the mini-lathes & mills that are manufactured in China and offered by various vendors, finally settled on the ones from Grizzly 7" x 12" mini-lathe because it included more optional pieces with the basic purchase (i.e. faceplate, steady rest, change gear set, MT #2 dead center, & at the time a magnetic base & dial indicator), but most importantly I could afford them.

Anyway, I got to the point in the MasterClass that it was time to make the combination bell bracket & reversing linkage pivot. there were instructions on how to make it out of styrene. However, since I'd invested in purchasing the mini-lathe I figured why not try making the assembly out of brass instead. Well most of the work was easily accomplished with hand tools (i.e. jeweler's bench pin (v-slot), saw, needle file set, & soldering iron) because it was all flat work.

The one part, the bell itself I figured to use the lathe. Well luckily there is a salvage type business not to far from me that has all kinds of stuff for sale. I figured that they'd have a hunk of brass that I could use. Well as it turned out, at the time while they did have some brass none of it was large enough in diameter to turn a bell from.

In digging around what they had I ran across the following. Don't go asking what it actually is, I have no earthly idea, still don't. All I cared about was I thought it was big enough to make a bell the size I needed.










In one of my rare smart decisions I bought two of them, turned out that was the right choice. As can be seen by my first attempt at turning the bell, a slight miscalculation as confirmed by the following picture. Ran out of brass before I ran out of bell.


















Anyway, a little thinking, recalculation and paying attention resulted in a bit better luck on the second try.










A little file work to smooth out my very rough turning technique, if you really want to call it that. Then a couple of decorative cuts around the top and one down by the lip, a bit of polishing with Brasso and...










While by no means a great job but I was satisfied with my first effort. So if I can muddle through and wind up with something that didn't turn out too badly, made by someone that didn't really know what they were doing, on one of those lowly Chinese built mini-lathes. I figure that most anyone willing to try can do just as good, if not better.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

Your post heartened me, I was beginning to feel like the local HF lathe salesman. (Door-to-door, no less).

The only thing 'wrong' with your bell is, you used too sharp-pointed a tool edge when turning it. Round off the nose of the cutting tool, next time, to a minor degree.

As a rule of thumb, dull (er) tools work better on brass than shiny, sparky-bright edged ones. That's one small reason to learn to sharpen your own bits.

I've knocked the edge off more than a few drill bits of the small diameter before plowing into brass, because that's what you're essentially doing: moving the equivalent of wet, heavy, sticky clay. Particularly yellow brass, as you show there. Incidentially, I think that part was an adjustable popoff valve, or the like.

It seems counterintuitive, but that's the way it works best.

I suppose, imagining back, I have broken at a rate of 3:1, of small drill bits in yellow brass than in 4041 steel. I don't pretend to know why. All I know is, some old machintst wandered by and said, "Break the edge of your cutting tools before you mess with yellow brass." Served me a working lifetime.

Those pix ought to be helpful to the newbie lathe folk.

Les


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

While the bit pictured wasn't the one I used to rough out the bell (it's what I chose to cut the decorative grooves), I understand what you're saying about brass being gummy and working better with a rounded tool. Thanks for the advise.

As for the choice of lathe, I figure it will possess capabilities far beyond my skill for a goodly time to come. So a larger & more expensive one would have been a waste of money I didn't have. While I have no argument with buying a good quality tools. In some instances, it makes more sense to buy what you can afford, then if and when your skill level exceeds what you can or need to accomplish with that tool, then it's time to save and move on up to a more capable one.

Your guess as to what the original piece was may very well be correct.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

That is really nice! 

I've wandered around the electrical and plumbing section and often see brass do-hickies like that. Now I'll look at them in a new light!


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, let me throw a t**d in the punchbowl. How many of you use carbide lathe tools and how many use High Speed Steel (HHS)?

I use HHS and HHS only. Grinding your own lathe bits is a skill every machinist should have. You get exactly the contour you want. They are cheap. You can hone them to razor sharpness or leave them slightly dull for what ever you are cutting. Carbide is fine for gigantic rock solid industrial lathes and don't work that well on our little home shop machines. 


Let the debate begin


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob

While I have no argument with what both you and Les are saying, regarding using HSS (High Speed Steel) bit blanks and grinding your own custom bits. There's no doubt that acquiring the knowledge and skill to grind your own bits is highly desirable and provides the individual the flexibility to do whatever they want, and then there's the fact that it winds up being less expensive too.

However, I think that both of you are sort of missing the point, maybe it's from hindsight being 20/20.








[*] First of all, most of the time you're dealing with an individual that has little or absolutely no knowledge or experience in the area of machining metal.
[*] Secondly, they have a new piece of equipment (i.e. a lathe) and hopefully some basic accessories (i.e. ready made cutting tools, HHS or carbide, solid or indexable), that they have little idea how to use.
[*] Thirdly, their primary interest is making something from raw stock of some kind.
[/list] The one thing that I'd bet most individuals don't usually have, is a locally available close friend or acquaintance that also happens to be a "good" qualified machinist (hobbyist or otherwise). Now I'm not saying that someone can't learn how to grind their very own cutting tools via 'Distance Learning' over the Internet, or for that matter {gasp} by reading a book. But it isn't going to be easy for either the student or the instructor.

Mainly from curiosity, just how, where, and how long did it take you to acquire the skill of properly grinding cutting tools?


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bob,

I use only HSS tools that I grind from blanks. I am not about to argue with those who use 'prefab' carbide inserts. I don't see the need for them, nor do I think they're worth the extra cost in a hobby-environment. But hey, it's your nickel. I have used carbide tools at work where the job dictated it, but that was because of time factors. Else, I ground my own to suit. They have the advantage of launching a newbie right off, but in my NSHO, a machinist who can't put a suitable cutting edge on a tool isn't a machinist, he's a machine operator. And, he's always dependent upon a supplier. And he'll never get the 'feel' of the materail to build a base of experience on. And that last is probably the biggest loss.

Les


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 18 Jul 2009 07:40 AM 
Bob

While I have no argument with what both you and Les are saying, regarding using HSS (High Speed Steel) bit blanks and grinding your own custom bits. There's no doubt that acquiring the knowledge and skill to grind your own bits is highly desirable and provides the individual the flexibility to do whatever they want, and then there's the fact that it winds up being less expensive too.

However, I think that both of you are sort of missing the point, maybe it's from hindsight being 20/20.








[*] First of all, most of the time you're dealing with an individual that has little or absolutely no knowledge or experience in the area of machining metal.
[*] Secondly, they have a new piece of equipment (i.e. a lathe) and hopefully some basic accessories (i.e. ready made cutting tools, HHS or carbide, solid or indexable), that they have little idea how to use.
[*] Thirdly, their primary interest is making something from raw stock of some kind.
[/list] The one thing that I'd bet most individuals don't usually have, is a locally available close friend or acquaintance that also happens to be a "good" qualified machinist (hobbyist or otherwise). Now I'm not saying that someone can't learn how to grind their very own cutting tools via 'Distance Learning' over the Internet, or for that matter {gasp} by reading a book. But it isn't going to be easy for either the student or the instructor.

/// That 'one thing' is why I keep saying, "Go Get A Copy of South Bend's 'HOW to Run a Lathe'." That's how I learned. Certainly I got some occasional help from a handy machinist, but 90% of it I learned on the fly. By doing. And reading that booklet, over and over and over.... And get a copy of a Machinist's Handbook, or Machinery's Handbook, the bible of the trade.

Mainly from curiosity, just how, where, and how long did it take you to acquire the skill of properly grinding cutting tools?

I was in a Black Hole machine shop at McDonnell Douglas, I got there because I had the right secret clearances and they needed someone badly to do engineering mockups. I got a beatup South Bend 9 x 36 (?) that I eventually cleaned up some slop in the infeed by dropping a #40 washer ahead of the leadscrew. The gearbox was frozen. I freed it after I ucovered an oil port that had been plugged and the plug painted over, probably while I was in diapers.

I can still remember the day I finally 'learned', or 'got it'. I'd spent 8 hours on a hot job going from fear, to rage, to fury, expended every swear word I knew many times over, and had turned to prayer. It was past quitting time. Prior to that time I could grind a successful edge 'hit or miss'. When I went home that evening about six, the job was done, off my hands, and I knew how to repeatably grind any effing angle on any effing bit I wanted to, for whatever purpose/material I happen to think I needed.

You miss an important fact of life: in a hobby situation there's no pressure. On the job, there's only so many times you can go ask for help, and then your boss starts hearing about how you can't cut it. And I really liked that job. Maybe I happen to be one of those 'naturals', but within a year I could joke, "You mess with me, and I'll build this the way you want, instead of the way it should be." And it wasn't just a joke.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 18 Jul 2009 09:10 AM 
Posted By SteveC on 18 Jul 2009 07:40 AM 
Bob

While I have no argument with what both you and Les are saying, regarding using HSS (High Speed Steel) bit blanks and grinding your own custom bits. There's no doubt that acquiring the knowledge and skill to grind your own bits is highly desirable and provides the individual the flexibility to do whatever they want, and then there's the fact that it winds up being less expensive too.

However, I think that both of you are sort of missing the point, maybe it's from hindsight being 20/20.








[*] First of all, most of the time you're dealing with an individual that has little or absolutely no knowledge or experience in the area of machining metal.
[*] Secondly, they have a new piece of equipment (i.e. a lathe) and hopefully some basic accessories (i.e. ready made cutting tools, HHS or carbide, solid or indexable), that they have little idea how to use.
[*] Thirdly, their primary interest is making something from raw stock of some kind.
[/list] The one thing that I'd bet most individuals don't usually have, is a locally available close friend or acquaintance that also happens to be a "good" qualified machinist (hobbyist or otherwise). Now I'm not saying that someone can't learn how to grind their very own cutting tools via 'Distance Learning' over the Internet, or for that matter {gasp} by reading a book. But it isn't going to be easy for either the student or the instructor.

/// That 'one thing' is why I keep saying, "Go Get A Copy of South Bend's 'HOW to Run a Lathe'." That's how I learned. Certainly I got some occasional help from a handy machinist, but 90% of it I learned on the fly. By doing. And reading that booklet, over and over and over.... And get a copy of a Machinist's Handbook, or Machinery's Handbook, the bible of the trade.

Mainly from curiosity, just how, where, and how long did it take you to acquire the skill of properly grinding cutting tools?

I was in a Black Hole machine shop at McDonnell Douglas, I got there because I had the right secret clearances and they needed someone badly to do engineering mockups. I got a beatup South Bend 9 x 36 (?) that I eventually cleaned up some slop in the infeed by dropping a #40 washer ahead of the leadscrew. The gearbox was frozen. I freed it after I ucovered an oil port that had been plugged and the plug painted over, probably while I was in diapers.

I can still remember the day I finally 'learned', or 'got it'. I'd spent 8 hours on a hot job going from fear, to rage, to fury, expended every swear word I knew many times over, and had turned to prayer. It was past quitting time. Prior to that time I could grind a successful edge 'hit or miss'. When I went home that evening about six, the job was done, off my hands, and I knew how to repeatably grind any effing angle on any effing bit I wanted to, for whatever purpose/material I happen to think I needed.

You miss an important fact of life: in a hobby situation there's no pressure. On the job, there's only so many times you can go ask for help, and then your boss starts hearing about how you can't cut it. And I really liked that job. Maybe I happen to be one of those 'naturals', but within a year I could joke, "You mess with me, and I'll build this the way you want, instead of the way it should be." And it wasn't just a joke.



First let me answer the question posed... I used both HSS and Carbide, but tend to use Carbide 90% of the time simply because I am not enamored with spending my time making a tool to make the project at hand. I want the end product, not the intermediary one, nor am I desirous of experiencing the process. I know of no one that I can take a HHS bit and show off how well I ground the tip. I do have acquaintances that would be appreciative of some end product that I made with a lathe or mill.

Now, let me RESPECTFULLY disagree with Les about the "hobby situation" having "no pressure". For me the pressure is twice as bad as in an industrial situation where I am working for someone else. Namely, they are paying the bills!

I am NOT, in any way, shape, or form, a "Machinist". I would not sully the word by claiming otherwise.

Let me contrast "my perceived" difference between the hobbyist and the professional. 

The Pro has a stock room available wherein he/she can obtain raw stock as needed. I am not saying that they have a perpetual unlimited supply of stock as I am sure that if they use a ton of stock to turn out a 3-oz. "stopper" from pure Titanium they would not be gainfully employed for very long. 

But as a hobbyist I have ONE, count 'em... 1, just one, uno, a single piece, of raw stock that I had to order via some distant supplier and I had to wait for 3 weeks for it to be delivered so I could start my "project". If I screw up just one operation, I have the following options, and all come with some expense.

1) Forget the whole thing. This could be very expensive. I might have already spent money for other parts and raw stock that would be useless if I quit now. This is often totally unacceptable.

2) Redesign the project to use the now miss-formed part. Not only can the redesign slow the project, but it may incur the expense of purchasing other raw stock to remake some parts that are already in their final form but are now the wrong shape to fit with the just miss-formed part.

3) Repair the machined part by adding metal back to it. This requires some method of doing so and it cannot always be done, even if you have some sort of raw stock to add the metal back from. (I have done this with an "Alumaloy" competitor, the brand name of which I don't remember right now. It DID work, but was QUITE expensive given the cost of the little rods of the stuff. It did save me the material and time expense of redoing all the machining steps on a new piece of raw stock that had been performed already.)

4) Buy a new piece of raw stock. This could be quite expensive in material costs, shipping charges and the time to wait for it to arrive.

Obviously, the best "Advice" is to not screwup the part! That cures all the above possible scenarios. But is not the "experience" I have in my learning how to use my lathe and mill.

I purchased a PM Research 2 cylinder horizontal mill steam engine KIT. It is a really nice looking engine and a fine "kit", I am sure. It comes with all the parts necessary to build the engine after some machining. It has two cylinder castings, a flywheel casting, cylinder end cap castings, steam chest castings, a base casting and bits of rods and strips of metal for all the various parts of the engine. There is one set of drawings showing all the dimensions of the parts and an exploded drawing of some sort showing how to assemble the parts once they are machined to the correct dimensions.

Note, there are just enough of these parts to build ONE engine with absolutely nothing but swarf left over. If I screw up just one step, I have to order a replacement casting from the kit supplier... assuming they have the appropriate casting in stock and I can afford it (it was a stretch on my budget to purchase the kit to begin with!) and assuming I am willing to swallow my pride and write to them to ask the price and then order the part. And then wait for it to arrive while I try to figure out a better method of getting the part made correctly.

Being a NON-Machinist with ZERO experience at taking a raw casting of these parts and turning them into usable steam engine parts, I am totally intimidated as to where to begin. The instructions that came with the kit do not include any words of wisdom as to where to start, and more importantly, "how" to start.

Let me take just one casting and discuss what is keeping the whole kit in the box for my heirs to dispose of. The cylinders. I have to pick some point on the blob of metal that is roughly in the shape of a steam engine cylinder and call it "0,0,0" - AND - I then have to understand how to orient the three axis about that point such that when I get to the furthermost points from 0,0,0 I still have sufficient metal in that general area. 

I have to put that casting in either my mill or lathe and flatten/smooth one end of the long cylindrical shape by removing material that is still rough from the casting sand. Then I must machine one of the sides of the cylinder to be flat/smooth and at a 90-deg angle to the first surface, to be the steam chest floor/valve seat. Then I must machine the opposite end of the cylinder to be parallel to the first. If I don't get that first surface right, I might end up with the two ends parallel but without enough material along the sides to bore the hole to form the inside walls of the cylinder. If I have to re-machine the first surface to correct that problem I will end up with a cylinder that is now too short from end to end. (Seems like that old saw, "I've cut the board off three times and it's still too short!" fits this circumstance.) Yes, I could possibly salvage it by making a short extension part to make it longer but that is just another piece of material that did not come with the kit and would need to be purchased AND machined correctly to accomplish the fact.

Frankly, it doesn't matter whether I am using HSS or Carbide at this point. It really makes no difference if I can grind the proper edge on a lathe bit if I cannot orient the raw stock in the correct relationship to the bit in the first place. I could be utter perfection in grinding the bit and still produce utter barf in the end product for which I made the bit to produce. I'd rather use a pre-made bit and expend my mental energy and anguish over doing the work than making the tool. I will grant you the fact that the correct tool would make the process easier and more satisfying and getting the correct tool is better done when you have control over its creation, if you know how, have the expertise and have the time to do so. I have NONE of those three things, so I use premade Carbide bits.

I do have a copy of a "clone" of "Machinery's Handbook" ("Modern Machine Shop, Handbook for the Metalworking Industries" 1st Edition)... all 2348 pages of it! Nice information in it, but a tedious read when you have no background in what they are expounding upon. I know the words (most of them) but have a very poor understanding of them in the sentences in which they apply them. It does not start with "Machining for Dummies" and progress to the deeper subjects. They (rightfully) are writing to the experienced user who just needs confirmation of what they already have some knowledge.

I ENVY people like Les that do, in my opinion, have "talent" in this area. There are folk that can sing, some that can play a musical instrument, some that can manipulate numbers, others that can read an insurance policy and understand it, some can program computers and understand the internet, others can manipulate wood to produce items of beauty and others that can put paint on canvass in an artfully pleasing manner and still others that can take a hunk of metal and produce a useable product and do so with minimal instruction. Some can do multiples of those things and more. I can do some of those things to varying degrees, but removing everything from a hunk of metal that does not look like a steam engine is not one of the things that I can do as easily as those that I envy. The "talent" may have come easily, or through long hours over many years, but I still envy "them" as well as their creations.

If we all could do anything equally well, there would be no reason for this forum. Can you imagine someone posting a photo of their latest creation and all the responses being, "Oh, yeah, I can do that."???


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 18 Jul 2009 07:40 AM 
Bob

While I have no argument with what both you and Les are saying, regarding using HSS (High Speed Steel) bit blanks and grinding your own custom bits. There's no doubt that acquiring the knowledge and skill to grind your own bits is highly desirable and provides the individual the flexibility to do whatever they want, and then there's the fact that it winds up being less expensive too.

However, I think that both of you are sort of missing the point, maybe it's from hindsight being 20/20.








[*] First of all, most of the time you're dealing with an individual that has little or absolutely no knowledge or experience in the area of machining metal.
[*] Secondly, they have a new piece of equipment (i.e. a lathe) and hopefully some basic accessories (i.e. ready made cutting tools, HHS or carbide, solid or indexable), that they have little idea how to use.
[*] Thirdly, their primary interest is making something from raw stock of some kind.
[/list] The one thing that I'd bet most individuals don't usually have, is a locally available close friend or acquaintance that also happens to be a "good" qualified machinist (hobbyist or otherwise). Now I'm not saying that someone can't learn how to grind their very own cutting tools via 'Distance Learning' over the Internet, or for that matter {gasp} by reading a book. But it isn't going to be easy for either the student or the instructor.

Mainly from curiosity, just how, where, and how long did it take you to acquire the skill of properly grinding cutting tools?



Two part answer. First was in High School metal shop. The teacher taught us how grind tools. Drill bits too. Second was when I bought my first lathe. The old Atlas 6" with the American style rocker tool post uses 3/16" bits. 3/16" carbide bits were not available in those days. Quick change tool posts using 1/4" bits where not widely available either. So, it was a matter of necessity.

For probably 98% of my lathe work, I use only 3 bits. Here they are:










The one on the left is the real workhorse. It's a fairly narrow point tool with a 1/32" radius nose. The sides are ground to about 8 to 10 degrees and the front about 10 to 12 degrees. The top is flat. The front cutting edge is honed with an 8000 grit oil stone. It cuts brass and steel leaving a smooth surface. Use it for both facing and longitudinal cuts. For brass it is set down from center just a "TT" and for steel it is above center just a smidge. The tool holder has an 8 degree angled slot so by setting the tool up or down you get the correct rake angle for the stock you are cutting. I set the height by eye ball and take a practice cut. 


The middle tool is a straight pointed version of the first. Use it to dig a sharp inside corner. This one is not used very often.


The third is a 0.050" wide parting tool for cutting off parts from the main chunk of stock. It's ground about 2 to 3 degrees on the sides and 10 degrees or so on the front. These take a little practice and I have busted a couple. They run at slower speeds. Tool height is important or you get chatter. One day I plan to build a dedicated parting tool block and order a regular blade. For now, grinding my own works OK.


 I use cobalt HHS. That stuff is harder than wood pecker lips. It holds and edge very well, although it's slower to grind. 


The grinder is nothing special. Ordinary 5" with a home made table. 









Grinding lathe tools is not a mystery. Sherline has a good pamphlet online. I think the tool height in relation to the center of the work is key. Brass a little lower, steel a little higher. Old fashioned rocker style tool post or quick change gives you the height adjustment. 


Bob


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, Les

Thank you both for the in-depth answers you've provided, they're helpful.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

C.T. said :..............{snip}Frankly, it doesn't matter whether I am using HSS or Carbide at this point. It really makes no difference if I can grind the proper edge on a lathe bit if I cannot orient the raw stock in the correct relationship to the bit in the first place. I could be utter perfection in grinding the bit and still produce utter barf in the end product for which I made the bit to produce. I'd rather use a pre-made bit and expend my mental energy and anguish over doing the work than making the tool. I will grant you the fact that the correct tool would make the process easier and more satisfying and getting the correct tool is better done when you have control over its creation, if you know how, have the expertise and have the time to do so. I have NONE of those three things, so I use premade Carbide bits.............{snip}



You make a very valid point C.T. Setting up the raw stock or casting is the real art in all this. And to the best of my knowledge, almost no one shows you how. I avoid castings like the plague for this reason. It is almost impossible to grip them, then use the first cut as a reference for the next cut A.S.O. I fabricate everything and hope paint makes it look good.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semp,

What I meant about 'pressure' was possible job loss. What you mean is the emotional and financial tangle of obtaining another casting if you screw one up. Both are valid, just different.

Some misc observations on that engine kit: I would hope there's enough extra material on those castings to allow for setting up. I would think there'd be tooling lugs. W/O seeing what's got you bugged, I really can't offer any solutions. As a rule of thumb, a casting can be thought of as no different from some piece of scrap you happen to find: the first thing you have to do is get one plane at least, machined true. Once you get that, you're halfway there. The other half is to get any other plane normal to the first one. (Right angles.) Now you're cookin'.

Don't forget that an independent 4 jaw chuck can be really handy with odd-shaped pieces.

And don't forget the value of a surface plate. (I have a sheet of tempered glass until I can find a real surface plate.) Some judicious filing/stoning and measring as you go, using toolmaker's ink and your indicator will help a lot on cleaning up one end.

For mill setup, just do the best you can and run an end mill across it, starting at the high end, which you find by using your dial indicator in the chuck (Mill is NOT turned on!!!) to see if you can flatten it that way. By indicating various places around the face, you can find out pretty closely how much you're going to have to remove, which should tell you how much is coming off the other end. Compare that length to the finished dim on the print and see if you have some overage.

Why don't you post a pic so I can see what's what?

Also, to build up your confidence, go down to the hdwe store, part in hand, and try to find some plumbing fitting that's about the same size. Take home a couple and practice on them.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bob,

You're right on the money about setting up being a big part of the art.

Have you ever miked around a cylinder casting to see how far out of round it is? Do they have a cast hole up the center, or are they solid?

My point is, if the casting is just a few thou out, here 'n there, and there is no hole left in the center, go ahead and chuck it up and turn a face on one end. Then swap ends and cut lightly to see how well things go. (Indicate the thing, first, that'll tell you a whole bunch).

If there is a center hole cast, you should be home almost free: just polish out the roughness, then run a boring tool to get a reasonably smooth surface that is undersized for the piston. Now make a tooling fixture that'll close-fit the hole, and go from there. I guess you could even machine the proper size bore, but having never seen one of these cylinders, I'm not in any position to be definitive.

Don't forget about a sharp, center-ground scribe in the tailstock for 'indicating' centers when you hand-rotate the headstock. If it doesn't scribe a small circle, you're pretty well centered.

It just seems to me that the centerline of the cylinder is the key: get that and then make everything else referencing it. I'd like to see some pixes.

Les


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys, 

I just wanted to pipe in with a couple other comments on cutting tools. I truly believe at some point everyone should/will have to learn to cut their own tools. I thought I wouldn't have to do it much when I first got my Sherline, but it sure wasn't long before I realized to do the things I wanted I needed specific tool shapes and after doing it I found I actually really enjoyed it! As a kid growing up watching my uncle and grampa machining crusher parts on huge old lathes, they spent an amazing amount of time (at least from a kid's point of view) grinding tool bits. There were literally dozens of little cardboard boxes filled with unique tools they had cut for one job or another. They used HSS 99.9% of the time, and only pulled out carbide when something unusual was being cut. That was an eye opener for me, but it makes sense now. 
What I've found using the small lathe is that rigidity is key...both in the thing being machined and the cutting tool setup. The more rigid you can make things, the less likelihood you will get tool-dulling chattering. Also chattering kills carbide tips--they are brittle and so it doesn't take much to knock off a edge. Anyway...just wanted to pass on my experience with it... 

Keith


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks for weighing in. I'm beginning to feel like I'm standing on a soapbox. When I was 'on the job', I had an entire drawerful of tool bits cut for one reason or another. All the machinists I knew had the same thing. For one thing, once you get a blank knocked down to a tool form, it's easier and quicker to modify an existing tool than to grind a fresh one.

I understand the newbies. They want to get crackin', and like right now. Prefabbed carbide tools will allow for that. I think MicroMark even sells a pre-ground set of basic HSS tools, already ground. I don't begrude that for a minute. It's just that I know what you've said is true: finicky little jobs come along that a standard tool just won't do for. (Or, as the English say, 'fiddly'.) 

This may be nothing more than superstion, but an old machinist showed me that wetting a shop cloth and folding it over the compound rest in the direction of the tool tended to hold down chatter. I _know _that works for a boring bar. 

Once more, into the breach (Henry V...) use cutting oil a lot. I can't emphasize that enough.

Those little cheap lathes I was talking about at HF? I went to two stores, today, chasing other tools, and of coursed stopped to pay my respects to the the little cuties, and neither store had one. That makes me suspect other people than myself are seeing the value ($250). Hope so, anyway.

Somehow, my computer printed TWO 20% off coupons, so I arrowed down to my favorite one. I've been waiting for more than a year for one of those coupons, so I could buy one of those tiny little table saws with the 4" blade. While I was in the first store, I saw a new offering, another drill bit grinder that looked a tad better than the last one I bought from 'em. (A piece of junk.) Don't laugh: I'm gettin' old and shaky, and besides, grinding drill bits is something you need to keep your hand in at to do good.

Turned out they were No Stock on the little saw, but another store a mere 19 miles away had one left, and they said they'd hold it for me. So wife and I hustled down there and got the little saw, and I looked over the drill sharpener and said, "At 20% off, I believe I'll gamble." Anyway, a lot of HF's prices have dropped, I noticed.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Les your stories reminded me of something my Dad once told me, after I complained that I was always given the oldest worn out dump truck in the fleet to drive: He said, "Anybody can drive a new truck, but it takes a driver to drive an old truck." I felt a lot better after that. I figure the same applies to lathes--a good machinist will be able to compensate for the play and quirks of any old (or new) lathe, whereas a newby will struggle with backlash etc....it's just part of the learning process though...it's all good...the main thing is we're enjoying the hobby and doing the best we can at any point in time....baby steps....incremental but satisfying improvements are where it's at! 

Keith


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Keith:

Your dad sounds like a wise man.

The newbies have a legitimate gripe about loose-tolerance lathes/mills, be they new or used, and that is, "Where's the error? Is it me, or is it the machine?" I know, I've been there with a wornout old South Bend and an ancient Bridgeport when I started out. But their complaint has merit. Few realize that these low-end lathes use a metric pitch, so you're actually dialing-in ~.065/turn, instead of the .050 that's marked on the dials.

That's an easy one to explain how to find out: if you get erroneous results _that are in themselves alike_ then you can assume something's off in the machine, so get out the dial indicator and start finding out what.

When I get my 7 x10 geared machine going, I'm gonna mount long-travel dial indiators on both axes. It's just simpler that way. The electric readouts were just before my time, and I don't like 'em because I hear they tend to 'skip' now and again. Maybe they're better, now. Then I'll post pixes of 'em here.

The thing of paramount worth in the cheapest of lathes is the headstock/chuck setup that allows far more flexibility than a drill press, and far more accuracy, too, other than the high-end industrial presses. The compound gives much better tool control, slop or not, than doing it by hand.

To paraphrase, "It may be an old dump truck, but it gits you there." (To your next paycheck.)


----------

