# Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR



## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I finally bit the bullet and upgraded to "First Class" since I'd been hanging around here for ...about 2 years now, but I still have so much to learn about the hobby it's daunting/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif!  

Most of my efforts to build an interesting and workable railway have been chronicled here http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44667&whichpage=1 ,but as my last post before the conversion to the new software said, I've not made much progress this winter./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif But I am hoping to change that with a couple of warm days in the next week!

I'm in the process of preparing the water feature, and want to utilize a masonry base for the stream beds.  I've read some info on 'Tu-fa' and 'glupata' as something that could be shaped and yeild a more attractive feature than straight mortar or concrete, but I don't have any experience with them and have not seen any comments on their usefulness in a constantly wet environment. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif I'd appreciate some feed back on any of the members experiences with them and the recipes that may have been utilized.

Mark


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I finally bit the bullet and upgraded to "First Class" since I'd been hanging around here for ...about 2 years now, but I still have so much to learn about the hobby it's daunting/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif!  

Mark



Congratulations, Mark.  You've already experienced the benefits of MLS.      Thanks for becoming a First Class member.  That's why we're all here.  We have so much to learn about the hobby.  The more we learn, the more we share.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 01/10/2008 10:26 AM
Well, I finally bit the bullet and upgraded to "First Class" since I'd been hanging around here for ...about 2 years now, but I still have so much to learn about the hobby it's daunting/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif!  

Mark



Congratulations, Mark.  You've already experienced the benefits of MLS.      Thanks for becoming a First Class member.  That's why we're all here.  We have so much to learn about the hobby.  The more we learn, the more we share.  

What a great layout.  You've really done good......


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Yeah Mark, Congrats on the move up.  I did take the time though to look at your construction log. I have to echo the sentiments that it is a first class effort and success at your first garden railway. WOW!!!!!!! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR*

Your layout is great. Wish I could help on the recommendations on water proof shapable mortar, but I know verly little about it. However- when I was 18 just out of Hi School I worked with a company building pools. I was just a gopher whose job description included among other things, being verbally abused by all the journeymen and picking up huge sacks of what ever they wanted as long as my back was broken by the end of the day. 
I got paid very poorly, but I did drink a lot of beer, increased my bicepts by an inch and learned a few things about the masons trade mainly; its very hard, dirty, hot work and I needed to stay in school so I didn't end up doing it all my life. 
Well, one other thing, they use to shape the pools, partly by the way the dug the hole and partly how they wired the rebar. The concrete was poured over the rebar and the masons smooth out the contours using it like a guide from what I could tell. 
I would guess that you could do a lot of the shapping if you used chicken wire and earth, and then floated the concrete over that. Also, I can't remember exactly what they used, but they had a special coating that would make the mortar water proof. Apparently the mortar and concrete couldn't do this alone. That was a good 35 years ago, so I don't recall exactly what that stuff is.


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## pcentral (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR*

Richard, 
Your post had me cracking up! I had very similiar experiences in my early jobs in construction! 

Mark, 
Firts of all, welcome to 1st class! Thank you for joining the rest of us in supporting this fine site. Be sure and stop by the new lounge and get some refreshments, that is if there is any left! 
Reguarding your water feature you'll need to do a little research. As Richard noted, you'll need to use a waterproof type of concrete as regular concrete will allow water to seep through it and over time may cause problems. Another thing to consider is if you plan to have a pond and put any fish in it you don't want regular concrete as it will leach out acids into the water. 

Steve


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I think Pool companies use stuff called    Gunnite?  That may be a wrong spelling.   Any way  Check with one of your local pool companies.   Tell them what your doing.  Mention it is a model RR,   they May lead you in the right direction.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR*

why use concrete at all? 

make a wooden outer structure, form the lake/river with chickenwire, cover it with glasfiber and pour two component resin on it. 
that is easier done, easier shaped to the desired form - and easier removed, if you are not contended with the results.


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys.... I don't think I'll be doing Gunnite since that is effectively a small aggregate 7 to 8 sack mix (about 7000#PSI),  and it is porous as well......That's why pools get plastered (to seal the 'crete)!    

However, what I'm really interested in is the strength of the glupata/tu-fa mixtures. A local landscaper suggested I put down a epdm/pvc liner and lay the mortar mixture on it with a 'chicken' wire reenforcement,.

If these mortar mixes are really porous I don't think the liner will be a good idea since it would trap water under the mortar mixture potentially causing freeze damage from pooling, or even lift the mortar eventually.  An alternative might be to mix in some acrylic sealer to stop the water penetration, but don't see how that would work with Tu-fa.  

....or just do the pvc liner, or just do the mortar.  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif  

If I just went with the epdm/pvc liner I'd have to really work to hide it.......bunch of rework on the rock work./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif  

Decisions....decisions......decisions.......I think I'll go rebuild some fence while I think about it some more......./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif

Mark


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR*

It was my impression that the Tu-fa or whatever it is called was made with cement and peat moss or something simiilar. I really don't think it would hold up in a water feature. I don't think it would last in a freeze/thaw issue. I have a 16 foot total drop waterfall. I used an EPDM liner for the whole length. If you don't use a liner you will have a leak you can't stop. I covered the liner with flat rocks in the middle and irregular rocks on the sides. The liner is turned up the sides. If the water feature is not dug into the ground, you may need to place rocks behind the turned up sides. Next you need to grout between the rocks or the water will disappear under the rocks and the water feature will not have water you can see. To fill the space under and between the rocks, I foam in insulation from cans. After it oozes out between the rocks, I carved it to form a recess, and then grout with precision grout. The water flows quite well.


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick -- What type foam (brand or trade name) have you used?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif   It sounds like a solution to achieve the look of what I wanted to do.  

I have done the liner with rock cover and your right the water just disappears under the rock./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif

Thanks
Mark


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Though I've not used hypertufa for water channels, I have used it quite a bit on my layout here in Vermont.  We can go as low as -20° in the winter and as high as 90° in the summer and it has held up just fine.  I typically make a form of harware cloth and apply the hypertufa over that.  I plan to experiment with using it as a stream bed.  (The stream bed is already lined with pool-liner rubber and the hypertuffa will be for decoration.

Llyn


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Ongoing construction SC, BL & FL RR*

Fascinating thread going on here. I am contemplating my own waterway under conditions similar to those of Mr. Llyn Rice in Vermont, but slightly more extreme on the lower end. I have yet to come up with a solution for this sub-arctic locality, but I will be interested to see how this stateside one works out. 

--Ron in CC


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

All of my lakes and rivers are simply "hand-slapped" concrete that is covered with a mortar mix that is textured using alimunim foil.  Once dry, it is painted with a waterfproofing paint (DryLock).  Color is then sprayed using "rattle cans" right over the waterproofing paint.

We leave our lakes and rivers dry when not is use.  (In fact, I have a float switch that pumps them out twice a day after watering.)  Ergo, the bottoms are painted a different color than the sides.  Also, we integrate real rock to provide bases for our vignettes and ties it all together.



















We also use the foil method on retaining walls.  What's to the right of the "crack" is real and what's on the left is textured mortar.











For a different sort of texture, the mortar can be "beat" with a wire brush after several hours of hardening.  Note how the color is integrated into the "block" retaining wall as if the stones are mined and cut locally.










This river was also done by beating the mortar...,










Whereas this one is a real rock that has been integrated into the concrete.


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Some really great comments and ideas for the water feature!!  I have been out of pocket for most of January and February with ranch work /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif( rebuilding about 500' of fence and adding about 120' of lay-down water gap) and more importantly the birth of Grandkid #5, Karsen Olivia, on the 8th/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif so I have not gotten much done on the rail way./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif

However I did get Stan Cedarleaf to make up some decals and logos for the SC BL and FH and got a set put on my 3Truck Shay.  I really like the way it looks.  

1stclass.mylargescale.com/imrnjr/new%20colors%20Shay%20%234.jpg
_(Repaired image link, found image exceeds 640px max width (792px), changed to URL link, SteveC mod.)_

Well, got to go cut some more pipe and move it down to the fence line.

More to come...after concrete, welding, and stringing wire....../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif

Mark


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