# Welsh coal? Where to buy!?



## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

I am looking to pick up one of the coal fired K-28 loco's and have been reading as much as possible about the process. One of thie things mentioned clearly in the online instruction manual was the fact that 'Dr. Klinkers Welsh anthracite was the best stuff to burn. Picked up the phone this morning and found that Coles Powermodels is no longer supplying this. Is there an alternative that is available here in the states? Tory's comments seemed to indicate that anything else was going to leave my firebox a mess of clinkers and sludge. Looking for advice before dropping the dime on this new toy.

Coles didn't' seem particularly helpful... Simply said they were out and no longer selling this. 


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I am surprised that Accucraft didn't jump right in there and sell nice bags of the 'right size' coal for this loco. 
That would have made good sense. 
Cliff could spend his day breaking up large chunks of coal from Wales and putting it in small plastic bags. 
I'm going to stay with alcohol! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup David, plenty of the stuff over there. Somehow I am thinking it may not be the best....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_p...c_of_China


I do enjoy the alcohol burners, but figure this should confuse me enough to make my runs less predictable.  
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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The question is "Welsh coal? Where to buy?" How about Wales? We have anthracite coal in BC, I wonder if it's any good for G1 live steam engines?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The question is "Welsh coal? Where to buy?" How about Wales? We have anthracite coal in BC, I wonder if it's any good for G1 live steam engines? 

Dan I recall one of the 7.5" guys from the Saanich group saying he was able to burn the coal from up island--probably from Quinsam (sp?) coal near Campbell River. I'll ask around and see if I can find out where else they get coal. What burns in the larger engines might not burn as well in the little engines, though. 

Keith


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 

Always love your sense of humor....... got an address in Wales that delivers. 


OK, I will try to re-phrase my question. I am planning on running G1 loco on coal. The instruction manual specified that using coal supplied by Coles Powermodels had a significantly better chance at success. Whoever wrote the operation guide mentioned that coal burning other than a high quality antricite could cause problems. I am trying to follow directions, with the addition of getting advice on what does or does not work here. 

Now, back to my question, What are good alternatives for use in G1 size fireboxes and are there any suppliers here in the United States that sell small quantities? 

Personally I don't care where the stuff comes from, but I would prefer not to have to purchase a full bunker shipped from Wales.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Joel779 on 21 Feb 2012 05:21 PM 
Dan, 

Now, back to my question, What are good alternatives for use in G1 size fireboxes and are there any suppliers here in the United States that sell small quantities? 

Personally I don't care where the stuff comes from, but I would prefer not to have to purchase a full bunker shipped from Wales. 


Well if you purchased the full bunker from Wales then you could sell it to every one that was going to buy it from Coles Power Models!


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## GaryR (Feb 6, 2010)

You might check out http://www.penncoal.com/default.php I'm told Pocahontas coal is what you want. 

My 2 ¢ 

GaryR


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Joel779 on 21 Feb 2012 05:21 PM 
Dan, 

Always love your sense of humor....... got an address in Wales that delivers. 


Joel,
Dan and I have a mutual friend who told me this story some years ago.
There was a knock at his door, and it was the mail man.
In his hand was a brown paper bag package, looking rather blackened.
He handed it over, saying "I think that this is probably coal!" 
Our friend had asked his Aunt in Wales to please sent him a chunk of coal, which she had done!
I wonder if you could still do that, as it is probably a dangerous material as far as the post office is concerned.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GaryR on 21 Feb 2012 07:23 PM 
You might check out http://www.penncoal.com/default.php I'm told Pocahontas coal is what you want. 

My 2 ¢ 

GaryR 

I checked out that site Gary and it looks pretty good to me. I dont believe the Anthracite is gonna foal up an engine. You will just have to pay closer attention to keeping flues clean of clinkers and ash.
Thats what all the work and fun of having a coal fired engine. You can also find some real good hardwood charcoal, Brazilian, and you can get a real good hot fire from it.
Granted the fire box in the K-28 is gonna require a pretty good supply of either coal or Charcoal to keep her going.
Good luck. Im glad I have enought to last me a while since I do burn mostly charcoal on the C-62.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Joel779 on 21 Feb 2012 05:21 PM 
Dan, 


Now, back to my question, What are good alternatives for use in G1 size fireboxes and are there any suppliers here in the United States that sell small quantities? 

Joel,
Try Dan Pantages, as he was selling bags of some special Australian mix or something to all the guys in Sacramento.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

I might give the Pocahantas stuff a try... I'm a noob, and the guy that wrote up the instruction manual for the K-28 was a bit opinionated, and said nothing matched the Coles stuff. I suppose I'm just looking for some suggestions on what people are happy with and where to get it.

Thanks all 
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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

The pocohontas from penn/keystone is pretty good. It gives a slight haze to a bit of smoke depending on how you fire. It also tends to clump in the firebox and needs to be poked through from time to time. Once you've fired with it a few times it's easy.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Joel, I've steamed the coal-fired RH Billy on western (Utah?) coal and on South American (supposedly) hardwood charcoal. The charcoal made too much ash and needed restoking too frequently to make it any fun, since the Billy has such a comparatively small firebox and grate area. The western coal does okay, but behaves just as Slipped Eccentric describes for the Pocohontas. It creates a bit more ash than Welsh, more soot in the smokebox, and does tend to clump in the firebox. It's also got more sulfur (stinky) and smokes more, so indoor use might not be advisable. 

There's another coal out there called "Elkhorn" that could be a cousin to Pocohontas, but I haven't tried any. Also if you do some internet digging you'll find "blacksmith" coal, too, but no idea how it stacks up against the rest. Out here it might just be Utah or other western coal. 

Steve


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joel, 

Signal Fuels in the UK might do overseas shipping, although it will probably be quite costly, they have welsh steam coal in grains and beans in 20 kilo bags. 

You could also try Maidstone engineering (also in the UK) to see if they will ship a bag.


Reel FX used to be able to supply the coal (used in movie props,etc), they are US located so might be a good choice.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The stuff David is talking about that I supplied one year was Australian Char. It is used by the 7 ½” gauge guys but they say it’s too hot used alone; they mix it with regular coal. The Char leaves a cigar like ash. I never did hear what people thought about it for gauge 1 engines.


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## PortageFlyer (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan:


I used some of the Australian Char you gave me in my 16mm scale Shawe Fowler. It works just fine- you just get more fly ash than with Welsh Coal.


With Cole's supply depleted and the number of coal-fired locos increasing, I sense there is a business opportunity for someone on this side of the puddle to import a large enough amount from Signal Fuels (to justify the shipping costs) and repackage it into smaller quantities.


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## tmtrainz (Feb 9, 2010)

Has anyone tried using anthracite from Northeast Pennsylvania (the "Blue Coal" of Reading Railroad fame)? If anyone wants to try some, let me know. PM me and I can work out an arrangement with you. I'm interested to know if it's better, the same, or worse than the Welsh coal that everyone talks about. 

Tom


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

There is still a problem out there on getting the right size good coal for the K 28. I "Bought" ten pounds from Coles in December and they have yet to deliver 

I hope Accucraft can help us out as we all face the same issue 

jim o


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

We use West Virginia Pocohontos coal in our 7.5" gauge/1 1/2" Mogul. It is readily available in 50# bags. NO clinkers-nice ash. Easy firing. My suggestion would be to contact your local large scale ride-on guys.

David Rose, charter member of Los Angeles Live Steamers, movie composer, fired all of his engines on Welsh coal. He used to import it by having it added to crates of machinery he had delivered from England.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Pennsylvania anthracite does burn well in gauge one fireboxes, provided they have two things: 

-A large amount of air flowing through the grate (strong draft and proper air intakes in the ashpan) 
-large grate area with wide bar spacing 

Pa anthracite and welsh steam coal are in different caloric categories as well as hardness. Welsh steam coal is what I would classify as a semi-bituminous coal, meaning that it has the easy catching characteristics of soft coal (WVa Pocahontas) and a high caloric value with minimal impurities (ala pure anthracite). As an experiment I tried heads up comparisons of pure Pa anthracite and welsh steam coal in a Coal fired Aster K4. This was to see if the pa anthracite used in our heating stove would be a suitable alternative for WSC. I ruled out WVa Pocahontas coal as the volitale content tends to leave a slag lump in the fire that must be broken up frequently to keep the air flowing. While it is great for the show and quicker heat output, it is a different beast compared to the hard and semi hard coals. 

Welsh coal has a fly ash residue, and tends to leave little of it behind on the grate. The left over material tends to easily fall through the grate, unlike what can happen with anthracite. I found that the PA anthracite pinched from our household stove supply would exhibit tendencies to create ash pockets in the fire, which indicated complete combustion of the coal. Unfortunately this meant that I now had a hole developing in the fire that if left unattended would result in losing the fire. The fine powder that the anthracite creates can choke up grates with narrow bar spacing unless you judiciously rake the fire during stokings. 

The Welsh coal provided a nice ash that was slightly more coarse, eliminating the buildup on the grate and allowing for a the fire to receive a better quantity of air with less raking of the fire. The relatively self cleaning nature of welsh coal ash is something that makes it easier to fire for the beginner. It is far more forgiving than anthracite if you overload the firebox or allow the draft to lessen. Anthracite does burn clean and provide a very nice, long lasting fire, IF the parameters I mentioned above are kept in mind. Anthracite requires a lot of air intake to catch the coal via heat transfer thanks to the low volatile content and one has to be mindful of the ash buildup, especially on grates with a narrow bar spacing. 

As a followup, and quite by accident, during one run I inadvertently mixed the welsh and anthracite when sizing the pieces. The result was that the welsh, which catches easier, helped the bed of anthracite catch, and resulted in a long hot fire that is surprisingly easy to keep going. I don't know the exact ratio of welsh to anthracite, but I suspect it was slightly more welsh coal in the mix due to the ash output. 

An important thing to keep in mind when firing is the way the coal burns. Different coals have different burning characteristics depending on the volatile and hardness content and as a result demand different air amounts flowing through the fire to keep the combustion rate at an efficient level. It is possible to fire anthracite in a firebox designed for bituminous or welsh coal and the opposite is equally possible. 


These are just my thoughts, the knowledge of coal types is a minute part of the equation, with experience and technique taking up the rest.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

*I have used Western Pennsylvania Anthricite in my Ruby. It smokes a bit more than the Welsh Coal and is a lot messier to clean out of the stack & smoke box, other than that it made adequate heat.*










*The same loco on Chama Coal. Terrible, the smoke stack stopped up after 3 runs.*










*Actually Welsh Coal is the best way to go for excellent performance & clean running.*


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry brings up another good point. There are differences between western Pa anthracite and the eastern Pa anthracite. Eastern Pa anthracite is usually completely smokeless, although it could very depending on the seam of coal used. 

I should also point out that there are different types of Welsh coal. Welsh anthracite is a slightly harder coal than the steam coal, and there are also soft (bituminous) coals that are used in open fire places. Welsh anthracite is also a good coal to use in Ga. 1 fireboxes, and can give a slightly longer burn than steam coal.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, Thank you for the detailed into about coal types. I noted your remarks about air flow to the grate. I had already planned some experiments with ashpan modifications to allow more even airflow underneath the grate. 

Larry, The western coal I have does cause a thick buildup of sludge in the stack, but not as rapidly as you describe for the Chama coal that you tried. The sludge is a jet-black, greasy amalgam of soot, steam oil, and water. Fortunately it's not sticky like tar, but it can get all over everything and stain just like the bottom mud that comes up on an anchor. I made a scraper shaped like a hoe with the blade edge radiused to matched the inside of the chimney, and I use that to scrape the chimney clean. I only used my good flue brush for that job once, and quit after having to clean it. I had tried using a twist of newspaper to clean the chimney, but that just spread the sludge around. 

Steve


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I should pick up the engine today, Cliff is bringing it down to the Train Shop. Looks like keeping the fire burning is just one of the challenges I bit off. I will order some anthracite from the Penn Keystone. If someone does know of a US supplier of the Welsh anthracite don't keep the secret. 

Thanks for all the advice. 

Joel


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 22 Feb 2012 09:59 PM 
Larry brings up another good point. There are differences between western Pa anthracite and the eastern Pa anthracite. Eastern Pa anthracite is usually completely smokeless, although it could very depending on the seam of coal used. 

I should also point out that there are different types of Welsh coal. Welsh anthracite is a slightly harder coal than the steam coal, and there are also soft (bituminous) coals that are used in open fire places. Welsh anthracite is also a good coal to use in Ga. 1 fireboxes, and can give a slightly longer burn than steam coal. 

So if the sources of Welsh anthracite are drying up, what would be the source of the second best anthracite (Would that be eastern PA?) I still have a few pounds left from Coles, but I'm also building more coal fired boilers. I don't mind clean up, but the performance needs to be there. I tried some random unknown coal in my Willi at Diamondhead that I had laying around. It was nearly as effective as throwing a wet blanket on a campfire.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Joel779 on 23 Feb 2012 06:36 AM 
Well, I should pick up the engine today, Cliff is bringing it down to the Train Shop. Looks like keeping the fire burning is just one of the challenges I bit off. I will order some anthracite from the Penn Keystone. If someone does know of a US supplier of the Welsh anthracite don't keep the secret. 

Thanks for all the advice. 

Joel 
Joel
I have made some inquires but this far no response from those who are suppliers to home heating in the UK (Signal fuel among the list) and if there is any possible way to import then I will certainly pass on word to all (given the demand).


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By PortageFlyer on 22 Feb 2012 06:37 AM 


Dan:


I used some of the Australian Char you gave me in my 16mm scale Shawe Fowler. It works just fine- you just get more fly ash than with Welsh Coal.


With Cole's supply depleted and the number of coal-fired locos increasing, I sense there is a business opportunity for someone on this side of the puddle to import a large enough amount from Signal Fuels (to justify the shipping costs) and repackage it into smaller quantities.

After some research, I discovered that David Morgan-Kirby organised an importation of some ten tons of welsh coal many years ago from Signal Fuels for the 'local' live steam group.
From their web site, I see that they list:
[*]Group 1 Anthracite - (smokeless) from South Wales - (Grains, Beans, Small Nuts & Large Nuts) [*]House coal products (Doubles, Trebles & Cobbles) - 50kg open sack, 10kg/20kg/25kg pre-packed, plus bulk loads as required. [/list] So, I don't know which size you will need, or whether they 'do' the Welsh in the same size bags, but as Jeff and Ryan suggest, it needs someone, or a group to do some organising.
I don't 'think' that the open sack is the way to ship through UPS or the mail though!!!
Again, I'll stick to alcohol!!!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Does anybody have a good working relationship with Coles? I really met with a dead end when I asked them about the stuff. If they don't want to stock it in the future, it would be nice if they could turn over the supply chain to an alternate reseller. But this would need to come from someone who had better communication success with Coles than I had.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Why not go around them (Coles). Go to the source.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i was up at LALS to see Peter Nott's coal fired Berkshire (1:8 scale) run last weekend.
here is a shot of his fuel (Welsh coal).

never got a chance to ask about his source, though.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Gary, 
A search for Fern Fuels came up with this page: 
http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/map_pages/wales.htm 
Now if ALL these can supply bags of coal, which one to choose. 
If all you coal firing people would like to get together and pay for me to go to Wales for a couple of months, I could go around to each supplier and test their coal and see which could ship to the USA, and then report back. 
Well....., just a thought! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

I had forgotten about Fern Fuels. Got my first bag of fuel from a friend years ago and it was from Fern Fuels. Good quality with little dust in the bag. Was in "grains" size too, no need to break it up. 

David, 

I suppose one would have to lend a Ga. 1 engine that is coal fired to make your proposal work?


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been in contact with Trevor Evans of Signal Fuels. Should I purchase some for distribution? He is working on a quote for me now. Who wants Anthracite from South Wales?


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like I can have 10 pound boxes of Group 1 Anthracite made available for about $32.00 plus shipping. (Most likely USPS flat rate.) Any takers?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

If you want to save yourself time in crushing the coal, get "grains" size.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 24 Feb 2012 06:38 AM 
Looks like I can have 10 pound boxes of Group 1 Anthracite made available for about $32.00 plus shipping. (Most likely USPS flat rate.) Any takers?
Dave
What is group 1 Anthracite (is it grain size) and is there a bulk buy discount offered (purchase whole bags)?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 
What size coal? 

Group 1 anthracite is good. Steam coal is best considered part of the Grp. 1 classification. Common sizes available are grain, bean and small/large nut sizes.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 24 Feb 2012 06:38 AM 
Looks like I can have 10 pound boxes of Group 1 Anthracite made available for about $32.00 plus shipping. (Most likely USPS flat rate.) Any takers?

Dave,
I don't think that Wales can use the USPS!
Most likely you will find that the shipping will cost more than the coal, in fact probably two or three times!
Make sure you get them to give you a quote on the shipping first before you place an order.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Grain or bean? What is the thoughts here? I am not sure the size of grain, but the firebox seems pretty big on the K, so I was thinking bean. How big are avg size pieces of each? Penn Keystone specs their stuff out, but they use a different scale: 

Stove: 2 7/6 x 1 5/8 
Chestnut: 1 5/8 x 13/16 
Pea: 13/16 x 9/16 
Buckwheat No. 1: 9/16 x 5/16 
Rice: 5/16 x 3/16 

Using this scale, I was thinking of buckwheat, but now I am thinking Rice would be easier to shovel. Just assuming it would burn a lot faster. Tory was recommending 'Lima bean size' which got me thinking of 'Bean' grind.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

WAY back in elementary school, we learned the heating coal sizes, ascending, as follows: rice, buckwheat, pea, nut, stove, and steamboat. I am referring to the early 1950s, when most folks in my hometown, Palmyra, PA, still used Anthracite for heating. I suppose those terms are now mostly archaic. I remember that my Grandmother Larish had a small stove in the kitchen called a "bucket-a-day" because that is how much coal it used in 24 hours. She kept a large pot of water on it throughout the winter months - primitive humidifier. 

Seeing coal sizes discussed on this thread brings back some fond memories, like how exciting it was to watch the coal truck come and deliver a new load of coal. In the mid-1970s, one of our neighbors in Allentown, PA still had a stoker furnace that fed buckwheat coal to its grate. He was a very popular source for cinders whenever we had an ice storm. 

Sorry if this is not directly related to stoking small steamers, but thanks for reviving some good memories just the same. 

Best wishes, 
David Meashey


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

UK coal sizing is different from US sizing. 

UK sizing is (small to large): 
Grains (somewhere between US rice and buckwheat) 
Beans (Between buckwheat and pea) 
Small Nut 
Large Nut 

The last two nut sizes don't apply to Ga.1 fireboxes obviously! 


Grains size is suitable for Ga 1 boxes with smaller fire doors and grate sizes. Most 1/32 scale engines or large engines with narrow fireboxes are using this size (equivalent to a baked bean or your pinky nail in size). Beans can be used, although you run the risk for larger pieces that do not make a nice even bed or cannot fit the door, a most frustrating thing when you are firing! 

Torry K recommends beans size, but that is because the fireboxes on the larger K engines have large firedoors and a grate that can support the coal size. 

The smaller the grate, the smaller the coal sizes. I find that the firebed is easier to maintain and keep free of holes using grain size welsh coal. Having fired both sizes in different size boxes, I end up breaking up the beans (which I have now) into grain size (using my pinky nail as a measuring standard), which of course makes alot of waste. 

Out of laziness and less waste, I vote for Grains!


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Signal fuel has approximate sizes 
Grain 6 X 12 mm 
Bean 12 X22 mm 
small nut 22 X 45 mm 

I use grain for the Shawe Mikado Conversion for the last 10 years and other smaller engines with great success. As Ryan states it is MUCH easier to order grains than to try and make them 
I have ordered some bean for use in the K 28 which was designed for it, breaking up some of the largest pieces. Tore recommends 3/8-1/2 inch 
I have ordered 20 kg bean from Signal fuels, 
but it sounds like Dave O may be working a deal for smaller amounts in the US


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks all, this has been the first step in my learning experience. I knew there were a few curves, but didn't realize it would start out this quickly.

Heck, maybe I can get a butane conversion kit for this engine and not have to worry about all this supply issues.









Really looking forward to getting the bits in one place and building a fire. 
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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

So, I think grains is what I want as well. I can use grains or bean in the K-28, but my Atlantic will require grains. Rather than have 2 sacks sitting around.....


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

So, I think grains is what I want as well. I can use grains or bean in the K-28, but my Atlantic will require grains. Rather than have 2 sacks sitting around.....


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Joel, 

That's the way. Easier to stoke the fire in the K more often than wasting 1 in 5 pieces of bean coal to get the right size for the Atlantic (Is this a Barrett GNR/LBSC Large atlantic?). I have fired one of Torry's K-27's on grains and it did not use the coal any faster than when it was run on beans.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately grains may be a bit small for the K 28 

just think that the bags are all that potential! A lifetime supply! 

jim


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)




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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

last photo is grains doing their work at Dan Pantages fine new layout


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, 

Nice fire you have there! 


I had a chance to fire a K-27 on Grains a few years ago and had good success. The K-28 firebox looks to be about the same size, so it should be fine. 

Although getting a bag of each would probably make the shipping cost more economic.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the compliment Jim but I don't see any picture.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan

Here's the picture you can't see because yur browser or version of it doesn't support the particular format i.e. data:image/jpeg;base64


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

That's interesting, I am using MS Internet Explorer 8. I took the picture with my camera and can see them when they are on my computer. We had a great morning, Jim ran about 2 hours burning up the coal.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan

Don't doubt you one bit, but wherever Jim hosted the picture that he included in his reply most likely had something to do with it. As to the MS/IE v8 it doesn't support that format.

There I've deleted Jim's original posted image and replaced it with the copy that I made of it and you now should be able to see both images (Jim's version was a bit large at 2816 wide x 2112 high).


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Steve, I can now see both of them.


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## csinc (Jun 8, 2008)

Try Maidstone. They have some on eBay and will ship to the US. 

Coles seems to not have any plan or at least idea of when they will get more so this is probably the only option.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Appreciate the info, can you provide more details on this? Did a few prelim searches on Google and Ebay for Maidstone, didnt' come back with anything conclusive. Who is the merchant name? Is there a URL for them? Sounds like this is going to get pricey for the good stuff, assuming it is significantly better than East Penn anthracite. 


Anybody ordering some big machines from England in the near future? How about a Rolls Royce, toss a few bags in the bonnet? 
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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Joel, you could toss more bags in the boot than in the bonnet.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yea, I figured I messed that one up.... LOL! Oh well, gonna have to go back and learn English one of these days.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joel, 
It's Maidstone Engineering in the UK 
http://tinyurl.com/7xmvetr 
They list on ebay 10kg @ £16.95 and 20kg @ £22.50 with free shipping in the UK. 
However, their web site shows 20kg @ £13.50 but of course shipping will be added. 
Also remember all UK prices have 20% VAT added, which you do not pay if you are having it shipped to the US. 
Now Dan, for an old VW Beetle, do the Brits put the luggage in the boot or the bonnet? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That size is "Beans" this size is "grains" which is better for small engines? 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-KG-Wel...=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5d3280c45b


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Grains (or smaller) for small or shallow grate areas, or those with small fire door openings. 

In your case Eric, I would use grains for the ruby firebox, perhaps even slightly smaller pieces (think "navy bean" sized) as too large on a small grate allows air gaps between the coal, which ruins the efficiency of the fire.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

So, here were my options for small purchase of coal: 

Penn Keystone - $86USD for 50lb bag (East Penn Anthrecite, Buckwheat) 

Maidstone Engineering - 43.50GPB ($68.73USD) for 20kg (44lb) box grains. 

Both prices include shipping. 


I just ordered a box from Maidstone. Have to see how it works.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

So, cost comparison between various fuels: 

price point: 1 gal SLX alcohol = $20 
1 can butane = $1 

The berk uses about 1 cup of alcohol per run, the K takes the better part of 1 can of butane per run. Unknown how much coal it will take for a 1 hr run. 

Alcohol per run: $2.50 
Butane per run: $1.00 

So, if I expand this into the purchase price of coal at $2.00 / run this would give me 30-40 runs out of a 40lb box of coal. Pretty sure I won' t use 1 pound of coal per run, but then again, I haven't tried it yet. This would be about a break even point. 

Anyone want to guess how much coal a K-28 will burn in 1 hour of run time? Yes, I know there are other consumables for this, but I'm just curious about the price point we are dealing with ordering this stuff in small quantities.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Joel 
In estimating the coast of coal you need to apply a fun quotient which is a factor of 5 to 10 

jim o


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the engine is under the bonnet, there is no mention as to front or back of the car. Don't even go to mid-engined cars.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The engine is at the front of the cars the caboose is at the back...every one know that!!!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

While we are on the car terminology tangent...What about the "hood ajar" light. Not as clear cut as it would seem to be on a drophead! 

Dan:
Mid engined cars are confused, they don't know if they are coming or going!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

We at Chrysler used to have a system that replaced warning lights with a system that would actually talk to you. True story--it was at the Detroit Auto Show, sometime in the '80s and a young girl, there with her Dad, was being interviewed by one of the local DJs. She was asked, "Which cars did you like the best?" Her answer was, "The Chrysler cars". The interviewer than asked why. She responded, "Because they tell jokes." Tell jokes? What do you mean? She responded, "They say, "*A door is a jar*"".


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

No problem getting Welsh coal next day for $85.00 box of 44 pound of grain


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got an order 20Kg bag from Maidstone, they are shipping Signal Fuels bags. The grains looked to be about perfect size. $70 and delivered in less than a week. Not sure if the extra $15 would have gotten me next day or not. Was very happy with Maidstone's service. They were responsive vi email and got my order out the next day. 

Anyone have experience with Signal Fuels? Sounds like it is the real stuff. 

Next question - storage. Is there any special precautions I need to keep this stuff fresh and usable? Should I be keeping some small bags of dessicants in with it? This bag should last me for a while.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Exchange rate....but after looking at the invoice the main cause for increase was that we were charged VAT!


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

When Talking to Yves in Trinidad,At Diamondhead He told Me that You could NOT get Welsh Coal any More.That the Welsh coal that the U.K. is selling is from Poland.He told Me the Polish Coal is the Best of the Best for small scale live steamers.Now He by passes the U.K and gets it drect from Poland. 
Any one that has been to Diamondhead Knows that Yves is the best for info on coal fireing 
So what You want is not WELSH,You want POLISH Coal.He said it burn great.No Clunkers,No Clunkesr at all. 
So do You have Polish ? or Welsh. From what Yves tells Me All in the U.K are using Polish Coal !And selling Polish for Welsh Coal 
Zubi,Do You have a sorce for Poilsh Coal ? Yeves sayes it is " Dob sha" ,"Dob Sha", Coal


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Posted By Bob in Mich on 02 Mar 2012 01:31 PM 
When Talking to Yves in Trinidad,At Diamondhead He told Me that You could NOT get Welsh Coal any More.That the Welsh coal that the U.K. is selling is from Poland.He told Me the Polish Coal is the Best of the Best for small scale live steamers.Now He by passes the U.K and gets it drect from Poland. 
Any one that has been to Diamondhead Knows that Yves is the best for info on coal fireing 
So what You want is not WELSH,You want POLISH Coal.He said it burn great.No Clunkers,No Clunkesr at all. 
So do You have Polish ? or Welsh. From what Yves tells Me All in the U.K are using Polish Coal !And selling Polish for Welsh Coal 
Zubi,Do You have a sorce for Poilsh Coal ? Yves sayes it is " Dob sha" ,"Dob Sha", Coal


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

The Anthacite we get here in the UK comes from Poland but Welsh Steam coal is still mined on a small scale. 
We at DJB use the Polish Anthacite and it is very good, good heat and leaves very little ash, I would reccomend it. 
David Bailey


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, Joel, now you need to steam your new K-28 and let us know how it goes. 

Regarding storage how about burying it deep in the ground? After all, that's where it's been for most of the last several million years. Sorry. Couldn't resist. I've heard, but can't confirm, that exposure of coal to the elements will result in a gradual loss of some volatiles. I keep "Welsh" coal in a plastic bag in the garage and coal that I've scrounged in a covered metal garbage can that lives outside. 

Steve


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, if you leave it in the ground long enough you will be able to give your wife diamonds.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 

I was hoping with global warming and all that it would sprout dinosaurs. If I get diamonds instead then I'll finally be able to buy an Aster. 

Steve


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

WOW!

I placed my order for 20 KG of Welsh coal [grains] from Maidstone Engineering this past Monday, March 5 and it was just delivered a few minutes ago [Thursday, March 8] via UPS. 

*Only 4 days from order to delivery.* 
I talked with a gentleman by the name of Darran at Maidstone and the rest is history. The final price is about $1.92/lb.

Their service couldn't be better.

Contact info: Telephone: 0044 (0) 1580 890066 
Fax : 0044 (0) 1580 891505 
Email: [email protected] 

Will Lindley


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thumper, That was exactly the same experience I had. Pretty reasonable pricing for air freight. I was VERY impressed with both shipping and service. Great service over there.








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