# Oscillating cylinders: need to polish?



## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Have my LumberJack apart and noticed these scratches. Not too deep but thinking the high spots aren't where the ports are, so may be allowing more leakage than desired. 
Should i take the time to true up the surfaces?

Also, anyone know how to get the cylinders apart? Would like to look at the seals on the pistons. 

Thx.
Marty


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## Gerald (Apr 8, 2013)

Hi Marty!

I can not translate into English the article unfortunately.

http://www.schienendampf.com/344872...schinen-auf-dampfoelfreien-betrieb-t1112.html

But the pictures in this post answer you hopefully your questions.

Greetings, Gerald


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

Link to site using Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schienendampf.com%2F34487225nx30160%2Ftuning-f35%2Fumbau-easy-line-maschinen-auf-dampfoelfreien-betrieb-t1112.html&edit-text=&act=url


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, the end caps are pressed in. I took one apart one time. I took the piston rod "big end" off by holding the rod with flat pliers and many layers paper (for grip without damage) and a small rod to unscrew the big end. A little heat may need to be applied, I put loctite on mine but I don't remember if the factory does. I then tapped the piston rod down to push out the cap. Then I could pull the piston rod through and put a drift pin and tapp the other end cap (with the rod opening) from the other side.

Polish the cylinder block and the motor block with sandpaper (I use 600 grit) on a piece of glass. Other folks have other methods, I'll let them address what works for them. Wash those parts with soap and water very well before begining the reassembly.

As far as repacking the piston (REGNER uses teflon tape rolled into a string): Replace the end cap with the piston rod hole. It's easily pressed back in with a small vise. Then roll up about two feet of teflon plumbers tape. Wrap the teflon tape in the piston groove as tightly as you can pack it in. Then shove more (of the same single, long piece of teflon) tape into the groove using your fingernail or toothpick. Shove in so much that it bulges out all the way around, this is important in the next step. Place the piston into the cylinder using the rod as a guide through the end cap. Push the piston into the cylinder to where the teflon is touching the cylinder. Now tap the piston into the cylinder with a small mallet or large screwdriver handle (hard plastic). The goal is to cut the bulge of the teflon and leave a complete ring of cut teflon behind after the piston goes into the cylinder. (I've used this same method of piston ring creation on my Accucraft C-16 and have many, many hours without issues.)

Press the other end cap on and replace the rod big end (I recommend a little threadlocker) and you're ready reassemble the motor block.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Gerald said:


> Hi Marty!
> 
> I can not translate into English the article unfortunately.
> 
> ...


http://www.schienendampf.com is a great live steam forum if you are able to speak any German at all. And if you can't, as Scott shows, Google does a fair job at translations. 

I've seen many posts concerning replacing wear points with teflon, this is the first I've seen with oscillating cylinders. I've seen these kinds of post when many are trying to be oil free (ölfrei). 

Ich spreche kein Deutsch, ich spreche nur Japanisch.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

seadawg, I had a loping problem with mine when I first got it and found the teflon tape had a loose end that was flopping around in the cylinder causing that, easily corrected. Like yours the end just pulled off and I was able to fix it easily. 
skeeter: I don't know how the groves wore into the cylinder seams and I bet the the feed block has matching high points, looks pretty bad. Mine wore into each others fit within 8 times running and they have been fine ever since.. Is there a steam leak between them??
Do you run on the ground where a piece of dirt would imbed itself in the space??? and cause this??
On another note, Despite what has been falsely posted in the past, (not in this thread) my experience is if you Email the factory in english, they will respond in english, yes they are very fluent in several languages. How else would they expect to deal in the international market. And they are very happy to help you in any way possible.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I understand the word 'Teflon' in German.

Andrew


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Guys, thx for the info. Appreciate it.
Marty


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

From the German site: "the earlier Easy-Line models still had brass piston, these are replaced by the new Teflon flask. Owners of newer models can avoid that."
Hmmm. Could i possibly have a teflon piston? To me i can see the edge of the teflon piston through the port. It's white, not tarnished brass.
Re: scratches: yes, i do run on the ground, and maintenance is not my strong suit.
Thx. again.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

If you do have the teflon piston, then you have much less work to do. Your cylinders will likely not need any attention and the only reason for disassembly would be to clean the polishing media from the steam ports.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

skeeter or Dave, would the addition of a 'skid plate' protect the assembly from future abrasives since he runs on the ground. just a thought.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a thought on polishing or lapping. Saw it on a woodworkers show.

Buy some MDF fairly thick (maybe 3/4 inch or 19 mm) and cut it into handy rectangles. Then get some adhesive backed sandpaper of various grades (say 400, 600, 1200). Apply the sandpaper to the MDF rectangles and write the grade on the side.

This would give you a very stable base, fairly cheap, and you could wear down the surface to any desired finish you wanted. Easily replaceable if needed.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Question for LumberJack owners: how to freshen up "seals" under gland nut? Wrap a little tap on rod lunder nut and a little tape on nut threads?
Thx.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

skeeter, on other locomotives I have used graphite impregnated wool for the seals and nothing on the threads. it can be bought at the big box stores in the plumbing section for packing valves. don't use it as it comes, break it up into long threads. It will seal and the graphite also acts like a lubricant.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeterweazel said:


> Question for LumberJack owners: how to freshen up "seals" under gland nut? Wrap a little tap on rod lunder nut and a little tape on nut threads?
> Thx.


 The loco has Teflon take as packing and if you pull that out you can put a new length in, usually 75mm is needed twisted and then wrapped around the shaft. Tighten until the shaft has slight resistance. Also oil the joint before you tighten to get some lube in there.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

skeeter, any progress??? thank you.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

I lapped the cylinders and motor block. Deburred edges. This was last week. Ran it this weekend. Didn't run really well. Think i had the gland nuts too tight. Seems like less leakage though between cylinders and motor block.
Took it apart again (i'm working on putting in bearings for the axles to run on). New scratches on cylinder/motor block surfaces. Lapped before w/ .400 sandpaper. Seemed smooth enough. Maybe need to use finer paper, or brass is just so soft. 
Haven't tried new stuffing yet for under gland nut. Leaning toward using teflon tape w/ some graphite mixed in.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, I use 600 myself. But no matter what you use or how smooth you get it you will always wind up with those lines / scratches. I've heard some some old saying that goes something 'like slide valves wear out, but oscillators wear in'.

As far as the gland nuts I think they need to be just a tad tighter that hand tight. On my Willi, I had the gland nut come loose and flop around in the piston rod. So now I use "just a tad more than hand tight", as long as steam is not leaking by the packing.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Skeeterweazel said:


> I lapped the cylinders and motor block. Deburred edges. This was last week. Ran it this weekend. Didn't run really well. Think i had the gland nuts too tight. Seems like less leakage though between cylinders and motor block.
> Took it apart again (i'm working on putting in bearings for the axles to run on). New scratches on cylinder/motor block surfaces. Lapped before w/ .400 sandpaper. Seemed smooth enough. Maybe need to use finer paper, or brass is just so soft.
> Haven't tried new stuffing yet for under gland nut. Leaning toward using teflon tape w/ some graphite mixed in.


 
For lapping, use 1000grit wet and dry, 400 grit sandpaper is NOT what you use......it's way too coarse.
DM-K
Ottawa


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

On my Aster kits I use 1500.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

thx. I'll try some fine stuff


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, you are obviously very knowledgeable in these type of engines. Those scratches that developed after skeeter polished the cylinders and motor block, if not run on the ground, could they be something carried out with the steam. I know on occasion when I've turned over and emptied a partially filled boiler after a run fine black particulate will come out with the water. Having had it all apart I'm sure he throughly cleaned everything before re-assembling. Or is it just the make up of brass where there are particles in the metal that are harder than the rest of the casting? AND, no matter how fine an abrasive he uses this will happen again? thank you


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave:

The expression you are referring to relates to slide valves vs. piston valves....Slide valves wear in (meaning the polishing action of use provides a better seal) and Piston valves wear out (meaning the clearance continues to grow looser and the seal gets poorer with extended use).

Not exactly sure how it the expression applies to oscillators, but I think should be the same as slide valves since it is the two surfaces that in theory polishing against one another should develop a better seal.

In this example my guess is there is some particulate that is either in the boiler or being introduced at some point that is creating a material for abrading the oscillator surfaces...makes no sense that straight steam and steam oil is creating the problem.

It is true that two rubbing surfaces made from the same material will gall one another, but I would have thought the steam oil would keep that from happening in this case.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,

As he stated he used 400 grit paper. that's pretty coarse and a rougher surface finish then what Regner sends the parts out at. I only use wet/dry paper for metal work. 400 or 600. For lapping parts I use lapping paste not paper. Can use it on a heavy glass or a lapping plate is ideal but they are not cheap and hard to find a used one. 

lapping I start at 400 and work up 200 grit at a time to at least 1000-1200 The pastes I use are a dull finish rather than a polished finish as its a better wear surface in the reading I have done on lapping for motion parts. 

My twin oscillator on my Idris built was lapped up to 1200 and the surface does have visable motion lines but that is not affecting any sort of seal and it cant be felt with your finger. I also oil the surface each run as the lubricator gets minimal oil on the port faces.

My K28 that I lapped years ago has the same surface and was lapped the same. It still has a hard crisp exhaust.

Keep in mind when you lap the cylinders or any parts you need to do that with the cylinder apart as the sanded particles get into the passage and into the cylinder and stick to the oil. It will all score up the bore along with the port faces. Everythign gets cleaner with brakeclean then I use TSP and scrub with a hard nylon brush everything.


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Right, lapping should be done with 1200-1500 or even finer grit, whether with paper or loose grit on a surface...

Once properly lapped the two surfaces will continue to become better mated in the case of slide valves.

I would consider use of 400-800 grit more like polishing...and by further extension grinding uses 200 grit or coarser...

All metalworking terms...

But I digress, as now we are getting into semantics and which word means what.....;-)


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Ran today. Seems more peppy. Gland nut came loose.
Took motor out and have scratches again. Just the way it's gonna be? Before running lapped w/ 1200 wet paper. When running used plenty oil. Surprised it's galling that easy.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, sorry to ask again, are you sure it just isn't a particulate coming from the boiler causing this? thank you


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

No, not sure. But shouldn't it be steam only? How would junk get into the steam? 
If so, what can i do about it? That said i've never drained out the boiler. Guess i should and see what comes out.
Thx.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, in theory should only be steam. I use only distilled water in mine, and when I have occasion to stop running with water still in the boiler and dump it, on occasion a black particulate will come out with it. Don't know what it is. Maybe someone with boiler making experience will chime in.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

There is often some particulate in the boiler left from manufacturing... usually bits of burnt flux that didn't get washed out after soldering. The manufacturer may do some cleaning, but flux can be stuck on pretty well and won't come loose until after the boiler has been heated and cooled a few times. And it can take a long time to get it ALL out.

There is also almost always some mineral in the water that precipitates out as the H2O is boiled away. A small amount of dust can even get in the boiler while refilling it.

I have even seen small bits of metal come out of a boiler! I can only assume it was left from some drilling operation during manufacture and just didn't get washed out.

The water churns quite a bit while boiling and can break all this stuff up into small particles that can be carried out of the boiler in the splashing of boiling.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

My friend thought maybe i should break the edges of ports w/ a stone or something after honing. Possibly a little metal is breaking off and causing problems. What do you think of that?
Thx.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think you want to bevel the edges of the port openings That would effectively make them larger and affect the timing of the port open and close events. But do be sure there are no burrs around the edges that might stick up above the surface.

Question... is the galling//scratching only happening on the moving (cylinder) portion, or the stationary (steam/exhaust port) portion?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think there is any galling. These motors will always show scratches. Same for any slide valve cylinder. You just don't see it unless you take it apart.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Dudes, here is current state. Run time around 1/2 hour since was lapped. Ran w/ plenty of oil.
Thx.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Have you flushed out the boiler yet? Just in case there are flux particles etc. left from manufacture as suggested.

Andrew


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

How are you cleaning the cylinder and block after lapping??


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, i know when I run mine the oil squeezes out between the cylinders and block If you were to take that oil and wipe it on a white paper towel would you find anything?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like the scratches are pretty even across the surface, not just in line with ports as one would expect if it was coming in with the steam supply. I would try lapping at no finer the 1000 grit so there is some texture to retain an oil film. Can you back off the spring pressure slightly?


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx guys.
Garratt: Have not flushed the boiler. Dumped water out into a bowl. No obvious particles.
Jason: Last time i lapped, Tried to flush out cylinders by working piston back/forth in bowl of hot soapy water. Blew out block w/ compressed air.
Nick, i may try to take an oil sample next time i run it. It is apart now and i wiped all the oil off already.
Jeff: i'm afraid if i loosened springs there would be not enough tension to hold the cylinder against the motor block.

Took some pix today w/ USB microscope we have at work. Thought i better take them apart and see what's going on in there. Not sure what to make of them, other than need to clean parts as best i can. Can see brass on the piston. One pic shows finish after lapping w/ scratches on right side of pic. One port has a good nick in it.

Any thing i need to do when i put them back together? No kind of sealant on the cylinder cap? I didn't take the other side off; the one the rod goes through. Seems like there was something under the cap. Maybe just old steam oil.

Thx for your pointers.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, that is some serious scoring, and the piston looks like it has brass imbedded in the the teflon (as I'm sure you've seen). And IMHO those pieces look too big to have come from just lapping, unless the maginfacation just makes them seem so large. 
After all this, my quriosity is peaking as to how mine looks. I surely don't NEED another project (right now building a 2 stage rotary snow plow), but no snow till next winter sooooooooooooo. LG


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Skeeter, how big are the steam ports. 2mm thereabouts?
Where do you get your water from? Is it filtered?

Maybe try leaving the cylinders off and bring the boiler up to full pressure then wide open the throttle to blow out steam, hopefully clearing out any possible particles left in the boiler. Do it a few times just to be sure it is clean.

Andrew


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt, I do like that idea, something I'll keep in mind, instead of just dumping boilers, thank you. 
I'm still curious as to where the brass particles came from, shavings from machining, which would mean poor QC at the production facility. They seem too big to be from lapping?? I don't know. 
Skeeter, how old is this unit or better yet, how many approximate hours does it have on it??? thank you.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Ports about 2mm from memory. Stuff at work.
Water: using distilled out of bottle w/ 2 tablespoons of tap water mixed in per 20oz( forget the % they want). Per Regner suggestion.
Brass particles: i haven't cleaned anything yet. I'll try to get a better idea on particles size if i come across more.
Runtime: i'd guestemate 15 hours.

Thx guys.
Marty


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The brass particles on your piston could be from the scores of the oscillating cylinders. The scores could have been created from something else like contaminants in the steam. 
I'd be giving that boiler a good flush and steam blow out.
Maybe you should filter your water with coffee filters before using it in the boiler. 

Andrew


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, just a bump up to see if you've made any progress?? thank you.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Steamed it up w/ motor out to blow out the lines.
Cleaned everything as best i could. No obvious junk other than particles on pistons from early pic. 
Have it back together but haven't run it yet.
Thx for asking.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

PLEASE keep us posted as many of us are interested, thank you


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter, bumping it up again to see if you've made any progress. 
My only interest is because I have one of the same and would like to know how to solve the problem if it ever happens to mine. 
If you do not respond, I will respect your privacy, thank you.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Dang Nick quit hounding me! Ha!
Put it back together and is running OK. Haven't pulled it apart to see if scratched again. At this point i'm calling it good. If it's scratched again i don't know what i can do. Part of my layout it on the ground, so maybe picking up dirt. I can only be so clean. It is what it is i think.
I'll be sure to let you know next time it's apart. If it gets bad i might consider converting to teflon.
http://www.schienendampf.com/344872...schinen-auf-dampfoelfreien-betrieb-t1112.html


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you, very interesting article about converting to teflon, would need a very minimum of steam oil if any at all.
Glad it's running well. LG


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if Regner will eventually start making the motors using teflon. My climax has teflon pistons now.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

After thinking about it a while, the brass will wear IN. With Teflon, if the parts aren't perfectly matched from the start, with the self lubricating properties of the material, if there is a steam leak from the start? Quality control being what it is, just to mention an out of the box leaking boiler.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

snowshoe said:


> I wonder if Regner will eventually start making the motors using teflon. My climax has teflon pistons now.


Shawn, for the last few years ALL REGNERS have Teflon pistons. They did away with the tape piston seals about 4-5 years ago. Also went to Teflon piston valves on the entry level loco line. The slide valves are still a bronze/brass setup.


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