# By popular demand: DCC vs. the world



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, since the anti-DCC people want to destroy the nice comparison thread between 2 specific systems, I feel a public obligation to give them a place to just bash DCC to their heart's content.

Everything is fair game:
[*] like your ex-wife used DCC and you hate her.[*]20 years ago you tried DCC and it was awful[*]You hate anything that is not battery[*]You love only proprietary systems[/list]Just go to town guys, let's have rock'um sock'um thread where everyone can say how bad DCC is and how confusing it is, and etc.


I run track power and DCC and I am loving life. I have lots of locos with QUALITY sound, and spend less money per loco than any other setup I can find.


Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya right on Greg. Later RJD


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I am in the process of converting my LAST battery powered loco back to DCC.... I hate it THAT much.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm in the bunker with DCC. I've got a big manual and lots of cvs to tweak so I should be happy for awhile as long as my track cleaning car holds out. 

In my other hobby, music, you sometimes see the same stuff about Gibson guitars vs. Fender. Gibson guys think Fender guys are a bunch of cheap tacky punks, Fender guys think Gibson guys are a bunch of poofters with more money than brains. Real musicians typically don't care--they ake music with whatever you hand them. My guess is Harley vs Rice Burner probably gets the same way: pistol vs revolver, aluminum bats vs wood, cotton vs poly, blah blah blah.


I do get the distinct impression that a lot of people who criticize DCC have never tried it. But then I've never tried the REVO, and I criticize it. And I don't tlike the very idea of battery power, and I've never run a battery powered locomotive.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I run traditional track power, so I get pitying looks from everybody.... except maybe the 'around the xmas tree' guys. Use what ya like, ignore what ya don't. And don't criticize your buddy just because you think his wife is fugly....


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Game on..........im in. time to start bashing.......... I LOVE BASHING.... it just makes me feel tingly all over........... ViVa THE revolution down fall HE HE HE



























Batterys in the pot????????? VIVA THE revolution HE HE HE good thing im not drinkin tonight HE HE HE Dam it...........


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

How do I get the string through the tunnel so I can pull my train through?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 07 Oct 2009 08:24 PM 
I run traditional track power, so I get pitying looks from everybody.... except maybe the 'around the xmas tree' guys. Use what ya like, ignore what ya don't. And don't criticize your buddy just because you think his wife is fugly.... 

fugly....My LAMA is fugly HE HE HE







DONT ASK


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Nick, see what the pre-Inka thought about llamas. We dug this out of the ground in Ecuador.

http://www.girr.org/vacation_diaries/pambamarca_2009/090707_pap_loma_sandoval_llama_7456.jpg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't mind DCC -I just don't see that it is practical for the situation that I live in. Battery power suits me better. They add tractive weight to my locos and the simple fwd/off/rev switch is really all that I need. Sound systems are not a priority...(!) I prefer the simplicity and ease of use of my batteries to the large power modulators required for track power. All the locos use the same battery packs and everyone in the family knows that.

"Daddy -can Liam and me have a train?"
"Of course Matthew -which one?" 


regards

ralph


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

So wait - if this is "DCC vs. the world" - then this means Hitler is siding with _the world_?!
















The DCC Hitler Video on Youtube

(Warning - bad language abounds - at least in German... but then again, this is genius if you ask me!!







)


[*]like your ex-wife used DCC and you hate her. Mimi Reiter liked DCC?!







[*]20 years ago you tried DCC and it was awful Yes, the NSDAP should have been so much better!!







[*]You hate anything that is not battery Wait, don't those German subs have batteries in them?!







[*]You love only proprietary systems MTS?







hehehehe[/list] 
Sorry Greg... couldn't resist!!











(wait - did Lownote just say something about a "*bunker*"?!







)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

C'mon Greg, why not not vent your spleen fully, put your money where your mouth is, and name the members of this (so called) anti DCC crowd? 

Then we can have a proper ding dong all in brawl. 
I am sure the moderators will love it.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

DCC has some really great features! I'm waiting for the time where a digital signal can be transmitted over r/c with the power being supplied by batteries so I can have the best of both worlds! I have been told for some reason that it doesn't work that way...why?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 
As I understand it there are currently three ways to do battery R/C DCC and sound. 
1. An Airwire TX + Airwire ESC + a Digital sound system such as Phoenix P5. 
2. An Airwire TX + G Wire RX + QSI sound decoder 
3. An NCE TX + G Wire RX + QSI sound decoder. 

I will leave it to you to find out what each package will cost.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 08 Oct 2009 05:40 AM 
DCC has some really great features! I'm waiting for the time where a digital signal can be transmitted over r/c with the power being supplied by batteries so I can have the best of both worlds! I have been told for some reason that it doesn't work that way...why? 
Steve:

Yes, you can have DCC and battery--as Tony described. You can do it with Airiwre decoders or with QSI decoders, and with Airwire throttles or the NCE G-Wire throttle. I haven't done it but I've seen it done. I ran DCC over the air for about a year and a half, only under track power. It works quite well, and you get the full DCC command set for locos. The Airiwre throttle tends to miss the horn and whistle signal now and then, but otherwise I found it dead reliable


The real advantage, as several people have mentioned, is the DCC decoder with sound built in--for example, the QSI decoders. You get sound and DCC mototr control for the same or less than, say, aristo's REVO plus a phoenix sound card, and it's SO much simpler to install


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Oct 2009 07:38 PM 


I run track power and DCC and I am loving life. I have lots of locos with QUALITY sound, and spend less money per loco than any other setup I can find.


Regards, Greg 




Since I am new to this, I don't understand the implication that you cannot have "quality" sound without DCC. I thought DCC was just a type of control system just like any other, except that the control signals were superimposed on the track power. Then the DCC "receiver" ran the ESC and sound board just like any other system. So, isn't the quality of the sound dependent on the sound board you use, regardless of how you control the sounds? 

I guess I never paid much attention to DCC since I thought it was just for the micro-scales. I guess I have some studying to do.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By parkdesigner on 08 Oct 2009 01:45 AM 
So wait - if this is "DCC vs. the world" - then this means Hitler is siding with _the world_?!
















The DCC Hitler Video on Youtube




That was a hoot! 


BTW, did you know Hitler started his political career as a "community organizer"?


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 08 Oct 2009 05:40 AM 
DCC has some really great features! I'm waiting for the time where a digital signal can be transmitted over r/c with the power being supplied by batteries so I can have the best of both worlds! I have been told for some reason that it doesn't work that way...why? 


Again, I don't know too much about DCC. However, as I understand it, you take a normal power supply, set it to a nominal voltage and leave it there. That feeds a DCC encoder, which supplies constant power to the track combined with the DCC signal. The loco picks up the track power + DCC, feeds the decoder, and runs the various features of operation (speed, sound, etc.). Isn't this not unlike the TE? The battery guys just put the TE in the train and run it from battery. Why can't you do the same with DCC? Put the encoder in the battery car and feed the loco? The loco would not really know where the power and DCC signal was coming from. 

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Back to reading up on DCC I guess.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

See my response--you CAN run DCC with batteries. You just send the DCC commands over the air. You can also send them over the track, if your trains are powered by track power.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

This thread was worth it just for the Hitler video--geezus my side still hurts from laughing so hard! There are only a couple of guys I know that could have come up with that little gem...down periscope! 

Keith


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

it turns out that the manufacturers of high quaiity sound, Phoenix, QSI, Soundtraxx, ESU and probably others, have incorporated DCC into their sound systems in some way or other. However most have also allowed those sound systems to work WITHOUT DCC in some form.

With the departure of the Sierra and the 2K2, the "high quality" digital DC only sound systems, those days are pretty much gone. There are "medium quality" systems still out there, Dallee is one.


- gws


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

In response to those who have asked ... what is the problem with running DCC with battery power ...

DCC refers to a specific set of NMRA standards ... standards that allow a proprietary command station integration of commands and power supply plus a nonprprietary decoder. To date, all of the so called DCC on battery setups involve a proprietary decoder for loco control plus a DCC compliant sound board that accepts a DCC output from the decoder portion. I am not aware that any of these systems has received an NMRA standards certification.

Is this not like the Revolution or TE someone asked ... it is of course but again Aristo has introduced a proprietary product which cannot be certified under the NMRA compliancy program.

Conceptually, all of the battery systems do the same thing ... but that does not make them DCC ...

And while Gwire is sometimes touted as DCC, it is not clear in my mind that my Digitrax wireless throttle can transmit commands to the decoder in that setup beacause the transmission and command station protocols are proprietary under the DCC standard. It is as proprietary as the other systems in that sense.

Regards ... Doug
..


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Greg - can I control Live Steam with DCC??


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 08 Oct 2009 10:44 AM 
Hey Greg - can I control Live Steam with DCC??










Yes

Stan Ames


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Greg - can I control Live Steam with DCC?? 

You sure can Dwight! Massoth (and others) make decoders that can control servos. In fact the beauty of the little 8FL Massoth function decoder is that it will move the servo proportionally to the throttle, which is just what you want, or you can have it move from fixed end point to fixed end point, for say the reversing gear. Currently I am using this method to open and close gravel hopper gates but I am also going to put one in my Roundhouse Billy when I get time. If you don't have track power that is no problem either, since Massoth will soon have their DCC radio receiver ready. That will be ideal for someone like me who has DCC at home but wants to still use my Navigator DCC controller to run my live steamer at someone else's house. 

Keith


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 08 Oct 2009 05:40 AM 
DCC has some really great features! I'm waiting for the time where a digital signal can be transmitted over r/c with the power being supplied by batteries so I can have the best of both worlds! I have been told for some reason that it doesn't work that way...why? 
It does work that way. That's what Airwire initially developed...and now QSI and NCE have jumped in...and now the competition is on. THAT is the power of DCC oriented products...opens standards PROMOTE competition. 

We were talking about this on chat last night. CVP was VERY clever to NOT explain what they had done. All they advertised was that there was an output on their Airwire motor controller (ESC) that pumped out DCC compliant signals. The rest of their promotion material just explained it as a new, 900 Mhz based RC system for trains. And they sold like hotcakes...cause of the very good range...and the small antenna. It was JUST another RC system....yeah right.


CVP designed a system that transmits the DCC signal over the air...that was the HIDDEN SECRET to their design. Now, that signal could NEVER be called DCC compliant by CVP because the NMRA compliiance specifications are strictly written for signals going to and coming from the rails...NOT over the air. But...what's on those air waves out of an Airwire TX...is just a modulated version of the DCC signals that CVP puts on the rails in their normal DCC systems. The proof of that became plainly evident when a new company named QSI Solutions took a stock DCC decoder chip made by QSI Industries...and slapped an off the shelf Motorola 900 Mhz radio receiver chip in front of it...and created what we call the QSI Quantum version. I'm not diminishing what QSI Solutions did...but it did prove that what the Airwire TX put on the air WAS a DCC signal set...maybe not all...but clearly a DCC signal set.


Now to the battery part....that's another thing that made it easier for CVP to "hide" what they'd actually done. Up to the point in time when the Airwire ESC first came out....all (that may be an overstatement) of the DCC decoders out there were designed to get the DCC signal AND (important AND) their power off the rails. There was only one set of inputs. One of the things CVP did, like any other "regular RC maker", was provide battery/track power inputs to their ESC. The important thing they did from an engineering standpoint...never seen before...was to separate the DCC signal input (coming over the air) from the power input (coming from the track or a battery). And...then....someone at QSI Solutions discovered that they could do the same general design using the QSI Industries chip...and we got the Quantum ...with sound!!!!!! Then NEC said to CVP, I'll match your bet and raise ya....


Now we have competition in the HIGH END (meaning sophisticated capabilities) RC market because of the DCC standard...two vendors with "recievers"...and two vendors with "transmitters". AND...a third one too...the Aristo Revolution. And maybe more...seems to me that the RCS world is providing more sophisticated capabilities these days in their BELTROL product because it relies on the use of a sophisticated DIGITAL radio system. They're all digital...and they can all be powered by batteries...and as George stated, the sound board manufacturers are moving towards DCC based sound systems to maintain market share.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 08 Oct 2009 10:42 AM 
In response to those who have asked ... what is the problem with running DCC with battery power ...

DCC refers to a specific set of NMRA standards ... standards that allow a proprietary command station integration of commands and power supply plus a nonprprietary decoder. 

Doug 

I will keep out of the argument of which is better or which but I will try to respond to your specific statement.

DCC is indeed a specific set of protocols. The protocols specify both transmission waveform/voltage and content. While individual components are indeed proprietaty, the communication between them is covered by a set of specifications which allow interchange and allows you to mix and match to get the feature set you desire.





To date, all of the so called DCC on battery setups involve a proprietary decoder for loco control plus a DCC compliant sound board that accepts a DCC output from the decoder portion.




Regards ... Doug 


..


Your statment above is incorrect. The AirWire decoder from CVP does indeed provide a DCC output for sound decoders but the QSI radio interface provides the DCC signal to any device.

The transmission approach beinng used by CVP and QSI is indeed the normal DCC signal over the air. Per the approved standard this signal to the decoder should be +-7 volts. There is a proposal for DCC direct applications to lower this voltage limit to 3 volts. 

The QSI radio interface produces the DCC signal at +-5 volts which will work with many but not all decoders in the market. If it were at +-7 volts it would work with all products in the market or if the lower voltage limit is ever approved it will work with all DCC products that implement the lower DCC Direct voltage limits. 

In addition to the above there is also Hybrid Drive which takes its power from whever it can (including on board batteries) and the signal wherever it is provided. 

In the future expect more of these DCC/RC combinations some will use the standard protocol and some will be proprietary.

Stan Ames


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 08 Oct 2009 10:44 AM 
Hey Greg - can I control Live Steam with DCC??









Live steam: Fill, light, wait, go, follow in total fascination.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By parkdesigner on 08 Oct 2009 01:45 AM 
So wait - if this is "DCC vs. the world" - then this means Hitler is siding with _the world_?!
















The DCC Hitler Video on Youtube



The video is funny but who the heck is Howard (really)? I guess I missed most of the message because I did not understand most of the targets (I don't have any idea what a SUSI interface is or who uses optical sound triggers). Then again I never read a book about DCC by anyone.

I'm still looking for a book titled "DCC for Dummies." So far MTS seems to be the closest thing to it. At least I did find a book "Diabetes for Dummies" which my wife bought for me.









Jerry


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

There are two parts of DCC ops for large scale that need more explanation I think.

a. How programs like JMRI work.
b. How one handles multiple reverse loops inside reverse loops on a garden layout.

Both of these are unknown to me...and both are important issues in the use of DCC for outside layouts.

I THINK the JMRI program (shareware) decouples all the hooha of CVs and what they do...don't know. I think it allows someone to do the kind of stuff the Aristo Revolution or the NCE TX does...converts the "complex" CV setting issues (described in 100 page long manuals that come with those DCC decoders) into plain English. You want to set an address...you click on "address". You want to set the top speed...you click on "top speed". You do NOT mess with CV21 and CV96 in Octal to establish what you want...I think. Can someone explain JUST EXACTLY how using tools like JMRI make setting up a decoder easier? How much of that 100 page book does one need to understand? Or is it pretty obvious to the DCC new user? Also....can you use programs like JMRI to program radio based decoders like Airwire and QSI's Quantum? What about sound programming using one?


Regarding reverse loops...and I'm talking about track powered DCC here....I have a layout design that has multiple routing options...resulting in reverse loops inside of reverse loops. I know that a DCC reverse loop gizmo flips the power on the track as the loco moves into a new power block. What I don't know is what happens when there is already another loco on that section of track that has the power flipped. I flat don't understand how you design where you put the reverse loop controllers...or am I completely off base and just not understanding how this stuff works? It's this reverse loop problem that has pushed me towards battery powered DCC stuff...cause I can't figure out how to do track powered DCC on my layout.


Would some of the "experts" please illuminate?


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

DCC is just a string of bits encoded in a particular way. The protocols are straightforward and well documented. Therefore they are easy to implement. 

NMRA COMPLIANT DCC is DCC that has been examined by the NMRA and certified that it meets the published standard. 

Some of the various manufacturers are using the DCC protocol without the certification. This is ok as long as you trust that the manufacturer is doing it right. Then it'll work. If a manufacturer decides to do something funny or do it incorrectly, then there will be compatibility problems. Even the manufacturers that used to get an NMRA warrant are passing on that step because it has been such a hassle that they don't bother. 

Per the standard, the DCC data stream is encoded directly into the power waveform applied to the track. This has shown to be a very robust way of doing it, such that all the other early systems have faded away, except DCS. MTS was and is an entry level form of DCC where the early versions did indeed do funny things. 

The decoder rectifies the encoded squarish waveform used by DCC and makes DC power to energize the decoder. It also picks off the timing of the transitions of the DCC waveform and decodes that into a data stream to feed to the decoder's microprocessor. It is a simple matter to just apply DC power to the input of a decoder, such as a QSI for power, and then inject the data stream into the microprocessor on the side. That data stream comes from a simple receiver module like the GWire box. The Airwire, and now ProCab, transmitters format up a DCC like data stream and apply it to a transmitter, send the data stream to the RX via the one way radio link, the RX convertes the radio signal back to a bit stream. The bit stream gets injected into a decoder's processor. Done, a pretty much standard DCC decoder is used for RC. Decoders that haven't even been designed for use with radio have been used that way with small modifications to allow the connection between the RX and the decoder. 

Use of the DCC protocol allows this stuff to interoperate pretty much the same way as DCC over the rails does. This is a good thing. It would appear that the 900 MHZ radio link first devised by CVP for AirWire is becoming a de facto "standard" as well. I hope that the manufacturers see the benefit of cooperating and don't mess it up by being greedy and locking out other manufacturers. 

The TE Revo does not use a DCC protocol, they have their own two way radio protocol that operates on a different frequency (2.4 GHz) and uses a different digital protocol (ZigBee). There will be no digital interaction between the TE Revo and the other DCC based systems. This may not be necessary, but the TE is a closed system just like any of the other RC systems before (excepting AirWire/GWire). 

- gws


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Mikey, here are some answers 

JMRI is an open source Java program that, in part, allows decoders to be programmed in a more graphical way. There is a data file within the program's data base that describes the capabilities of most decoders. The program uses that data to display only the options that the particular decoder has grouped by type into tabs. It doesn't use CV numbers (unless you want to, there is a CV tab). It uses pull down menus, data fields were appropriate, sliders or other graphical tools where appropriate. Setting up speed tables is pretty much the same as setting up a graphical equalizer on a stereo. 

JMRI also allows the contents of a decoder to be read back and stored. Then the decoder can be completely refreshed into the stored state if you get if messed up by playing with it and doing something odd. 

JMRI interfaces with the network used by regular DCC systems, LocoNet for Digitrax or NCE's network, or perhaps others. It does it's work THROUGH the command station so it needs a conventional DCC system to operate. It can also work through a Digitrax PR3 programmer or a SPROG and a programming track in a standalone mode. 

I don't think that there is a mode to allow it to work via AirWire although there MAY be some trick that can be applied via the ProCab with the direct radio link. 

Now to reverse loops... 

A DCC track powered loco doesn't care a whit about the polarity of the track. It looks only at transition timing so that a reversing controller can flip the track polarity and not have ANY impact on a DCC loco. There are restrictions on the use of reversing loops. The reversed section should be LONGER than the longest train with metal wheels, but there are tricks around that one. This is to prevent the front and back of the train crossing a boundary between the unreversed main and the reversed section at the same time. One reversing controller can handle many reversing loops with a similar restriction. ONLY ONE TRAIN can be crossing the boundary at any given time. I have four reversing sections on my indoor layout driven from the SAME reversing module. This works within the constraint above. If you cannot meet that constraint, then you need another reversing controller for each loop. They run about $50 and include automatic circuit breakers as well. Both Greg and I use the PSX-AR with excellent results.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Oct 2009 07:38 PM 
I run track power and DCC and I am loving life. I have lots of locos with QUALITY sound, and spend less money per loco than any other setup I can find.


Regards, Greg 





Wow, I never realized that DCC was cheaper than simple track power. I guess they must be paying people to take these things off their hands.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 07 Oct 2009 08:24 PM 
I run traditional track power, so I get pitying looks from everybody.... except maybe the 'around the xmas tree' guys.




I also run traditional track power, but never get pitying looks. It is so cheap and easy to add simple features to control the blocks, and therefore the trains, such that I run seven trains simultaneously over about 600 feet of track and continually get amazed people who ask me if I use a computer to control the operations of the trains.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 08 Oct 2009 11:56 AM 
Mikey, here are some answers 

.... I don't think that there is a mode to allow it to work via AirWire although there MAY be some trick that can be applied via the ProCab with the direct radio link. 

Now to reverse loops... 

A DCC track powered loco doesn't care a whit about the polarity of the track. It looks only at transition timing so that a reversing controller can flip the track polarity and not have ANY impact on a DCC loco. There are restrictions on the use of reversing loops. The reversed section should be LONGER than the longest train with metal wheels, but there are tricks around that one. This is to prevent the front and back of the train crossing a boundary between the unreversed main and the reversed section at the same time. One reversing controller can handle many reversing loops with a similar restriction. ONLY ONE TRAIN can be crossing the boundary at any given time. I have four reversing sections on my indoor layout driven from the SAME reversing module. This works within the constraint above. If you cannot meet that constraint, then you need another reversing controller for each loop. They run about $50 and include automatic circuit breakers as well. Both Greg and I use the PSX-AR with excellent results. 
OK...regarding the NCE device....does anyone know any tricks that let one program using JMRI via the NCE Procab to an Airwire or QSI decoder/receiver via radio?


OK....still lost on the reversing loop issue. Don't know what "transition timing" means. Metal wheels...if they're insulated, why does that matter...or is it because they short the two rail sections the INSTANT they are crossing the gap? I guessing it is that "shorting" situation that causes the reversing controller to reverse...is that right? So...the "more than a train length" reversing block length is to for the purpose of keeping the reversing controller from flipping back and forth over and over again as the engine LEAVES a section but has cars still entering it? 


And lastly...if the track powered DCC loco doesn't care about the polarity...why is anything being reversed? OR...is the reversing there JUST to keep the shorting (arcing) from happening when the track gaps are crossed. Is that the purpose of the reversing controller.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Reverse loops are an issue with DCC because the locomotive sill short out the track when it passes across the gaps between the different rail polarities just like DC would.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Michael:

There is no implication that you do not have quality sound without DCC.... This is neither implied in the sentence construction, grammer, or intent. (you cannot assume the converse of that sentence is correct)


Why I said that, was to qualify the rest of the sentence, i.e. my cost per loco is lower than any other setup I have found. (The "lots of locos" is also a qualifier, if I only had a few locos, my choice might have been different).


If I wanted no sound, or something that is not "QUALITY" in my opinion (like the Dallee), then I think I could find a lower cost per loco.

The Aristo TE, or any of the offerings from RCS running from track power (Tony will kill me!)... some of Del's stuff... they would probably be lower cost per loco.


DCC is alive and well in Large Scale, and about to get even better real soon.

Regards, 

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No Bill, reverse loops are not an issue with DCC... the system senses the short and reverses the polarity before it affects anything. 

Did someone tell you this? 

Autoreversers are one of the major boons to DCC users, while other track powered systems have to mess with polarity. In addition, the autoreverser can be placed right at the gap between power districts/reversing loop insulated joints... powered from the "non-reverse loop" track. Nothing could be more convenient. 

Big advantage in track powered systems. Visit any DC or DCS layout, most people go to great lengths to avoid reversing loop configurations for this reason. 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 08 Oct 2009 12:49 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Oct 2009 07:38 PM 
I run track power and DCC and I am loving life. I have lots of locos with QUALITY sound, and spend less money per loco than any other setup I can find.


Regards, Greg 





Wow, I never realized that DCC was cheaper than simple track power. I guess they must be paying people to take these things off their hands.







Todd, I guess I need to explain my second sentence: 
I have lots of locos with QUALITY sound, and spend less money per loco than any other setup I can find

[*]lots of locos: (running at same time, not a brag... rules out DC)[*]Quality sound: (rules out using anything other than Phoenix or Sierra, or built in sound in DCC decoder, or no sound)[/list] 
So, DC was not included in my decision for what I needed to run my layout.


Yes, for a single engine, or identical locos mu'd on a single track, DC is cheapest...

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 08 Oct 2009 10:42 AM 
.....

And while Gwire is sometimes touted as DCC, it is not clear in my mind that my Digitrax wireless throttle can transmit commands to the decoder in that setup beacause the transmission and command station protocols are proprietary under the DCC standard. It is as proprietary as the other systems in that sense.

Regards ... Doug
..



Yes you are right Doug, although I suspect you know you are right!









Maybe there was some confusion or something not explained right. Your digitrax wireless throttle works exactly the way you say. The CVP compliant systems actually send a pulse stream over the air that is DCC... take the output of the Gwire receiver and pump it into a DCC decoder, and it can work, Stan Ames did it to a digitrax.

Your post brings up a point that many people get confused about, the "wireless" throttles in a "standard" DCC system can use ANY protocol to communicate to the DCC command station. Then the command station is the one to generate DCC commands.

The special version of the NCE throttle does output DCC commands directly just like the Airwire 1300 and 9000. 

It's like the different protocols of wireless computers... there is broadband wireless (to cell sites) and there is the 802.11 wireless people use in their house to their router and then to the internet.

People often have the latter, and think they have internet everywhere, to them they are "hooked to the internet"... and "wireless"... different ways to get to the same end result.

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

QSI's "CV manager" is a lot (i think) like JMRI. It comes with a USB cable and a wall wart-powered interface box, and the software lets you adjust CVs by either typing numbers or moving sliders or both. It took me a while to figure it out but once I did it was easy to use. I never got JMRI because you need to buy a serial to USB cable and I already had the QSI programmer


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Apparently JMRI is supposed to support the QSI dongle now or soon... could be very cool. 

You don't have serial on your computer? I guess that means it's a laptop... I ran the serial port from the computer in the kitchen out to the back yard to the command station. 

Regards, Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Oct 2009 01:53 PM 
No Bill, reverse loops are not an issue with DCC... the system senses the short and reverses the polarity before it affects anything. 

Did someone tell you this? 

Autoreversers are one of the major boons to DCC users, while other track powered systems have to mess with polarity. In addition, the autoreverser can be placed right at the gap between power districts/reversing loop insulated joints... powered from the "non-reverse loop" track. Nothing could be more convenient. 

Big advantage in track powered systems. Visit any DC or DCS layout, most people go to great lengths to avoid reversing loop configurations for this reason. 

Regards, Greg 
He was answering my question on how the reverser works....but sensing a momentary short. I didn't know how it worked...but there IS a momentary short...and that's the trigger apparently.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Oct 2009 02:29 PM 
Apparently JMRI is supposed to support the QSI dongle now or soon... could be very cool. 

You don't have serial on your computer? I guess that means it's a laptop... I ran the serial port from the computer in the kitchen out to the back yard to the command station. 

Regards, Greg 
My guess is that 90% of the new computers sold now DO NOT have serial ports...laptops and desktops. Twas a thing I looked at recently, when I bought the laptops recently after the burglary. Very few at Frys...desktops or laptops (frankly NONE of the laptops)..had the serial jack on the back. I'm talking like 2 outta 70 computers at best. It's becoming an add on thing now for desktops...but there are USB jacks all over the place now on desktops...like two in front and four to six in the back...but no parallel printer porter...no serial port. Fortunately the Dell Workstation I bought a while back came with them...since my Alps printer needs it. Using my last Sony, I never got the USB to serial adapter to work right...so I pitched an old high resolution scanner that needed that. 

Relative to this DCC discussion is the need for a serial port to support the JMRI program. That is good to know about and something I didn't know.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Oct 2009 01:53 PM 

Big advantage in track powered systems. Visit any DC or DCS layout, most people go to great lengths to avoid reversing loop configurations for this reason. 

Regards, Greg 


Only because they don't have the wherewithall to deal with it. I can make a circuit for a few dollars using just relays and a wall wart power source (illustrated here in the past) that can deal with it for a fraction of the cost of an autoreverser. And the system will work with track power, DCC, the Revolution, or whatever they come up with.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I really hate trying to edit in this new format.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right Todd, you might want to make up a kit or sell the unit. I understand your concept and the simplicity of it. 

Off the shelf has a big attraction to people. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Mikey, the autoreverser is there to prevent track shorts due to reversing configurations. It DOES trigger on a short. When a loco crosses a gap where the rails are reversed with respect to each other, a short happens. The main booster sees it and waits just a little. The autoreverser sees it too and reverses the polarity in a couple of milliseconds and then the short goes away. The outage is so short that it is not detectable by humans. 

Data bits are represented by the timing of the "AC" signal on the track. Short period transitions are a logical "1" and longer transitions are a logical "0". It doesn't matter which direction the transition is, either positive going or negative going, it is still sensed. However, during a reversing event, an extra transition is MAY be detected due to the short. This causes data corruption but this corruption is detected in each data packet and bad ones are tossed. All packets are continually refreshed by the command station because it has no way to tell what got through in good order. The frequency and priority of refreshed packets is a manufacturer choice. The packet rate is typically 300 packets/sec or so such that it isn't very long before a refresh is sent so that any lost packet can get through in a short time. 

The radio systems may be more frugal with refresh rates to keep the power consumption of the transmitter down. For a track powered system, there is no problem sending refresh packets until there are so many trains running and so many new commands being issued that there is less time in which to send refresh packets.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 08 Oct 2009 02:19 PM 
QSI's "CV manager" is a lot (i think) like JMRI. It comes with a USB cable and a wall wart-powered interface box, and the software lets you adjust CVs by either typing numbers or moving sliders or both. It took me a while to figure it out but once I did it was easy to use. I never got JMRI because you need to buy a serial to USB cable and I already had the QSI programmer 
I had a specific reason for asking about JMRI...the fact that it is open source....AND...AND...being non-proprietary, that it can be used to program decoders from multiple vendors. The problem I have with programs like the one QSI makes....or Phoenix....or Digitrax...whatever, is that they are tend to be specific to THEIR decoder. That's great if all you buy is THEIR decoder. How-some-ever, my experience is that I buy electronics over time. I have 20 or so engines...none with RC systems yet, so it will take some time for me to procure the necessary systems...unless I go the battery/receiver car approach. 

So...DCC has always interested me...pure DCC I'm talking about...track powered...because it's SOOOOOOOOOOOo much less expensive. A decoder for a small engine in large scale COULD be just a robust HO decoder. Lots of them handle 2 amps...and they cost in the $50 to $70 range. Some even come with sound built in. For sure, pure DCC is the cheapest way to control a fleet of engines...even if you're using the more expensive DCC decoders made for large scale. 


The thing I've observed about DCC decoders is that the industry is competitive. Five years ago, DCC outdoors had big issues with dirty track. That issue spawned a lot of development that resulted in DCC decoders NOW being far less sensitive to dirty track...better receivers...capacitor boosts to get it past a very dirty section of track...etc. And then, sound became in integral part of many decoders...so you don't have to buy a sound board. There's LOTS of economies to going pure DCC. 


Programs like JMRI are good in that kind of situation...because being open source, as new features get implemented in the decoders, features get added to JMRI to go along with them. You don't have to buy the NEW programming program for a NEW decoder and learn a NEW set of procedures for the program or buy a NEW dongle to connect to the decoder. So...in my view, JMRI is an important part of the whole DCC equation....unless you have enough money to outfit a 20 engine fleet with manufacturer's X decoder....all at once.


Believe you me....this is a good exercise to go through with a spreadsheet...cause these RC systems, sound systems, and batteries can get REAL expensive fast if you have a bunch of engines.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Mikey, JRMI does the decoder programming for almost all decoders, but you can do that from a DCC command station as well. JMRI DOES NOT do sound programming, or new firmware downloads. For that you need the stupid proprietary programmers. 

A 1.5 amp HO decoder w/o sound is about $24. A 5 amp one is about $55, again w/o sound. 

Sound HO decoders, suitable for only the lightest large scale stuff run $100 +/- a few bucks. Large scale versions like QSI are $127, ESU is $175 (with better sound than the QSI but not as programmable).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The top of the line Zimo, with all the extra function output is $199, and they have a software package to set CV's that is about like JMRI, but it is really complex... it has even more flexibility. You can program up to 10 different speed bands each with different chuffs (think duration), prime mover sound, reaction to load, etc. 

I like something that is 98% there out of the box. 

Regards, Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Okaaay.......I'm going to ask a "technotard" question here and would appreciate an answer in "Plain non-Vulcan english" (as my favorite doctor is fond of saying!) I use RCS r/c with 14.4v NiMH battery power on 27mhz and I have Sierra sound. I have a TX that gets 50-75 ft. of dependable range. I have a button that accelerates and one that decelerates. I have a STOP button that immediately kills the power to the engine and a button that reverses the engine. In addition, I have a button that starts the bell ringing with a touch and also stops it with another touch and I have a button that blows the whistle and I have a button that blows out the cylinders. I also have the capability of linking multiple engines to one TX handheld unit which fits in my pocket. There may be more functions that I am not aware of but that is essentially what I can do with my RCS system.

My question: What can DCC (battery powered with radio control) do that is so much better than what I have now? I guess what I am asking is what _is_ the _reason_ I should be looking at DCC? For this particular post I don't care about CV's (whatever they are! Remember...technotard?) or digital bits or reverse this or any other "technical jargon" that you all are bandying about! I just want the complex distilled down to the ridiculously simple: Make your answer so easy that a complete and utter neophyte can understand (ex: Hunyah!! Me got train. Me want it to go. Make run. Tell how...) Well, maybe not _quite_ that simple but you get the idea... I really _am _interested!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I keep posting here exactly because i'm pretty much a novice. 

Well you can do all that except blowdown (wish QSI had that). But you can also set the performance characteristics of the loco really closely. Acceleration, decceleration, start voltage, maximum voltage. You can speed match twoor more different locos and form them into a consist, and then they operate as one--speed and direction commands run them all. With QSI you can set a normal volume and a low volume--or mute the volume if you like. You can calibrate the chuff to match the pistons without any sensors or magnets. You can change the relative volume of the different sounds--make the whistle louder and the chuff quieter, or increase the volume of the break squeel while keeping the rest the same. And you can do those things in real time, on the mainline. I'm currently running 8 locos off one throttle. 



Also if you are running DCC on the track, you can activiate lights and switches and other goodies with a single handheld--and you don't need to wire in a dedicated power source.

I have not tried the latest Phoenix board, or messed with the Phoenix software, or tried tony's system, so take my comments with that in mind.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Steve, if you are happy with what you can do, you are fine. 

Do you want to do something more? Like more sounds you can control remotely? 

Would you like to change the volume of your loco remotely? 

Would you like to change the operating characteristics, like cut down top speed but give yourself finer contol over speed (yard mode in many systems) 

Would you like to tweak the volume of the chuffs a bit because you don't quite like the volume level? 

How about customize the cadence and lengths of the whistle blasts on a crossing whistle sequence you can fire off with one button? 

Would you like your loco to sense more load (not just speed) and make the "bark" louder and sharper on steep hills when there are more cars on the train? 

Would you like to have an "odometer" to know how many scale miles you have gone, so you follow a lubrication schedule? 

Would you like to read back the temperature of the controller board in F or C to see if it might overheat on a very hot day? 

There's a ton of stuff you COULD do... 

But the question is there things lacking you want? 

You could also peruse a manual, just look at the table of contents and say, "Hey, I'd like to make the brakes squeal when slowing, but only if I'm going under 10 smph"... 

It's hard to convey... but there's a lot of possibilities... 

There's a lot of "Stuff" possible, because not everyone wants the same extras. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I gotta agree with Greg, don't mess with success. If what you have is working for you, then there is no need to change anything. 

The DCC protocol battery/RC thing is just another way to get that stuff... and more if you care to. The real difference is in track powered DCC against DC. You can get all that stuff for very little money PROVIDED that you have forked over a considerable amount of bucks at the beginning. The battery/radio DCC implementations have the same performance features as track powered DCC except that you trade the expense of the extra radio gear in each loco against having to clean track once in a while.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Oct 2009 08:17 PM In my other hobby, music, you sometimes see the same stuff about Gibson guitars vs. Fender. Gibson guys think Fender guys are a bunch of cheap tacky punks, Fender guys think Gibson guys are a bunch of poofters with more money than brains. Real musicians typically don't care--they ake music with whatever you hand them. My guess is Harley vs Rice Burner probably gets the same way: pistol vs revolver, aluminum bats vs wood, cotton vs poly, blah blah blah.








Also: Kirk vs Picard; Mike vs Joel, stuffing vs potatoes...


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

WELL NOW LOWNOTE, I AM A GIBSON GUY, BUT ONLY AFTER I PLAYED SEVERAL FENDERS. TO ME THE DIFFERENCE I HAD AN ES-330TD WAS THE NECK, I HAVE PLAYED PROFESSIONALLY AND TO ME THE FENDERS WERE LIKE PLAYING RAILROAD TRACKS WITH YER FINGERS, AND THE GIBSON NECK AND FRETTING WAS WAY BETTER!!! NOW FROM DCC TO GUITARS HAH LOL WHAT A TRIP WE MADE THERE. FOR ME QSI/G-WIRE ALL THE WAY!!! NUFF SAID ON THAT THE REGAL 

LIVE SHOW TOMORROW NITE 7-9PM ON CRAZYTRAINGUYSCHANNEL GOTTA GET A PLUG IN FOR THAT TOO!! HAH 
http://www.mogulus.com/crazytrainguyschannel


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 08 Oct 2009 11:05 PM 
WELL NOW LOWNOTE, I AM A GIBSON GUY, BUT ONLY AFTER I PLAYED SEVERAL FENDERS. TO ME THE DIFFERENCE I HAD AN ES-330TD WAS THE NECK, I HAVE PLAYED PROFESSIONALLY AND TO ME THE FENDERS WERE LIKE PLAYING RAILROAD TRACKS WITH YER FINGERS, AND THE GIBSON NECK AND FRETTING WAS WAY BETTER!!! NOW FROM DCC TO GUITARS HAH LOL WHAT A TRIP WE MADE THERE. FOR ME QSI/G-WIRE ALL THE WAY!!! NUFF SAID ON THAT THE REGAL 

LIVE SHOW TOMORROW NITE 7-9PM ON CRAZYTRAINGUYSCHANNEL GOTTA GET A PLUG IN FOR THAT TOO!! HAH 
http://www.mogulus.com/crazytrainguyschannel 
Here's a clip of me playing, a little jazzbo stuff--guess what guitar? 


Way you look tonight


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All you guys talk about are the main guitars but we all know you could not really go anywhere with out your friendly neighbprhood bass player! 
Basses: 
- 1930 Kay Upright (doghouse0 
- 1980 G&L El Toro (made by Leo Fender himself) 
- 5 string Schecter 
- Jazz bass 
- NS Design Upright 
My wife bought be a t-shirt that says "Love one women, many basses". 
Rich


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Th JMRI software already supports the Locobuffer USB for Digitrax. I am sure that as other USB interfaces become available somebocy will write the code to support it. After all, if I am using a system with an interface and I want to use it and I can do the coding, I probably will just for myself. And somebody always want to share, right?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a couple of *USB-to-serial converters made by Keyspan* that I use to talk to some stepper motor controllers. These Keyspan units work where others I tried didn't. Additionally, there was a similar discussion on the astronomy forums a while back to allow running telescope-mounted cameras and associated guiding software. Keyspan adapters were recommended there as well. It seems other adapters aren't always full function (which bears out my experience).

BTW, I was totally yanking Greg's chain when I asked about using DCC to control live steam.







I'm perfectly happy with my Spektrum R/C setup, and since I use no artificial sound systems, etc. in my steamers, I see no advantage to DCC for my particular application. You'se guys don't recognize a joke when you hear one. hehehe


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 09 Oct 2009 06:50 AM 
Posted By blueregal on 08 Oct 2009 11:05 PM 
WELL NOW LOWNOTE, I AM A GIBSON GUY, BUT ONLY AFTER I PLAYED SEVERAL FENDERS. TO ME THE DIFFERENCE I HAD AN ES-330TD WAS THE NECK, I HAVE PLAYED PROFESSIONALLY AND TO ME THE FENDERS WERE LIKE PLAYING RAILROAD TRACKS WITH YER FINGERS, AND THE GIBSON NECK AND FRETTING WAS WAY BETTER!!! NOW FROM DCC TO GUITARS HAH LOL WHAT A TRIP WE MADE THERE. FOR ME QSI/G-WIRE ALL THE WAY!!! NUFF SAID ON THAT THE REGAL 

LIVE SHOW TOMORROW NITE 7-9PM ON CRAZYTRAINGUYSCHANNEL GOTTA GET A PLUG IN FOR THAT TOO!! HAH 
http://www.mogulus.com/crazytrainguyschannel 
Here's a clip of me playing, a little jazzbo stuff--guess what guitar? 


Way you look tonight 

Well lownote, i would say it isn't a fender, and it sounds like a gibson jazz guitar like the L5 maybe???? Because of the post i would probably say you're tryin to trick me with a Fender with some effects added maybe also, but I will stick with it's some type of gibson as you wouldnt be getting that much fret action from a Fender or the sustaining sound! The Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the Zimo decoder I have will drive servos! Directly! Blew me away, but there it is in the manual, and their software that does the CV's for you. 

Just as a person who has a lot of live steam locos might want to use Del's Railboss system with a Spektrum for a couple of sparkies (I hope I have that right) to use the same controller for all locos, someone with a whole bunch of DCC locos might want to run a single live steam loco with a DCC decoder controlling the servos. I could be such a person. Hmmm..... 

By the way Dwight, if you really wanted to do something wild, like control a bunch of valves, lights, etc, on a live steamer, or a bunch of other accessories (which I know is not normal), DCC could be a reasonable option. 

An AirWire system controlling a Zimo that controlled all your servos could be a wild thing, would hook right up, no muss no fuss. The whistle from a speaker is a whole lot cheaper than a real one, and sounds better. 

Again, this is assuming that someone wanted a bunch of accessory control. You already have batteries in the steamer to run the receiver, so really no big deal. 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been following this thread for over a week now. Greg I unserstand what you are saying, but it is almost like preaching to the choir. It's like semocrats and republicans talking politics. If you really like DCC, that's great. Ifyou feel battery is the ONLY way to go, that's fine too. If your thing is boiling water, then do it. But frankly I find this discussion an exercise in futility. Just my .02.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I actually look at it as a place to release all the pent-up "Stuff" that many people are apparently carrying around. I'm not trying to convince anyone... read the first post on the thread... 

I was hoping that people that really want to "rag on" DCC would come here, instead of invading other threads that actually have a narrow focus, looking at specific topics. 

My other thread is intended to be a comparision of 2 sets of hardware and how the stack up to each other. 

Because one was DCC, all the "anti-DCC bile" started coming out, so I figured maybe I could make a place to release this tension, and leave informative, useful threads alone, like Jerry's AC TE Revolution thread, and Del's Railboss thread, and my AC Revo TE as compared to the QSI/NCE/Gwire thread. 

I guess maybe that maybe this is a naive goal, that people can discuss things objectively, rather than stick in their "zingers" against one technology or the other. 

Funny thing, I've been accused of being "anti" this or that, but when I try to keep things objective, the the real "anti" people surface... 

I don't have any vested interests, I am not forced to wave the flag for anything I do not believe in. 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I agree with everything you've said. I'm a "techno-peasant" when it comes to electronics and that's why Jonathan Bliese does everything for me. When something goes, he fixes it. I ONLY have to worry about running trains and that's fine with me.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The whistle from a speaker is a whole lot cheaper than a real one, and sounds better.*Blasphemer!! Stone him!!!!*


All kidding aside, that violates my "purist" principles, not to mention violating the whole reason I found live steam so fascinating in the first place. hehehe I know some people use electronics whistles in their steamers and that's fine with me, but it's not something I wish to do.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, completely understand, but you will have electronics right? 

I'm of course not disputing you, and if I was primarily a live steamer, being a "purist" would be appealing. 

That said, sounds like you will have remote control. So what's the difference if the protocol is proprietary or DCC, if you like your "throttle" and you like how it controls the loco, then it's good. 

But the whistle thing, as an outside observer, is really weird to me... I hear about $300 steam whistles, and it sounds like a cartoon character. I know that physics says you cannot get low frequencies from small cavities, so a model whistle can NEVER sound like the real thing. If I was in live steam, I would be sorely tempted to investigate a sound system for the whistle. I think the technology in "chuff pipes" / "bark boxes" would satisfy me on the chuff side. But, being able to have brake squeal, rod clank, coupler clank, hmm.. I would probably be banished from all steam groups! 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 10:06 AM 
I actually look at it as a place to release all the pent-up "Stuff" that many people are apparently carrying around. I'm not trying to convince anyone... read the first post on the thread... 

I was hoping that people that really want to "rag on" DCC would come here, instead of invading other threads that actually have a narrow focus, looking at specific topics. 

My other thread is intended to be a comparision of 2 sets of hardware and how the stack up to each other. 

Because one was DCC, all the "anti-DCC bile" started coming out, so I figured maybe I could make a place to release this tension, and leave informative, useful threads alone, like Jerry's AC TE Revolution thread, and Del's Railboss thread, and my AC Revo TE as compared to the QSI/NCE/Gwire thread. 

I guess maybe that maybe this is a naive goal, that people can discuss things objectively, rather than stick in their "zingers" against one technology or the other. 

Funny thing, I've been accused of being "anti" this or that, but when I try to keep things objective, the the real "anti" people surface... 

I don't have any vested interests, I am not forced to wave the flag for anything I do not believe in. 

Regards, Greg 
I must issue an apology to you folk.









I asked a VALID question on that other thread and attempted to explain that IT APPEARS TO ME that this DCC stuff is rather magical... based on the premise of: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C Clark) and I attempted to provide my own answers based on my very limited (miss)understanding of the subject to see if I was anywhere close to any sort of understanding.

I got an answer to one question in the first response and flamed for my audacity of asking the questions in the next two.

Again, I apologize for that.














Not my intent to create controversy or put down anybody or product.

I find it somewhat humourous that this thread, apparently created in a fit of pique, for people to flame the products, has also provided additional valid information about them!

BUT! The initial reaction to my questions actually provided all the information I need to make a FINAL decision about what "I" am going to do.

Ya see... I didn't come from the ranks of smaller scales. I jumped into this hobby for only one reason... that of being totally fascinated by American Railroad Steam Locomotives. 

I was looking for a way to actualy OWN a steam locomotive and had considered everything from an HO "TOY" to a FULL SIZED REAL locomotive that would require several acres of land (in one extremely long, yet narrow, configuration) to operate. 

I did not buy a REAL one (I looked at 3 specifically with the intent of buying) because I could not find something that "LOOKED LIKE WHAT I WANT" at a price I was willing to pay. I didn't buy one of the "TOY" ones (until I found the Aster Mikado) because they either failed to LOOK TO ME like a proper locomotive or because they did not operate in any sort of prototypical manner (oscillating cylinder hidden in the cab!). I considered the ride-on scales but could not find what I wanted (and the land deal had fallen through so I no longer had a specific place to run anything BIG, even as small as a 7.5, 5.0 or 3.5 inch gauges). Then I found the Aster Mike and that settled the decision for me... it LOOKS RIGHT TO ME! and operates in enough of a prototypical manner to meed MY desires and will run on the land I have available.

I installed track, NOT for the purpose of modeling a RR, but a place to observe my locomotive in operation. Rolling stock, for ME, is not something that is to be a "model" of the real thing as much as just as a load to make the locomotive operate in a more prototypical manner. But MY esthetic viewpoint meant that an out of scale train behind the locomotive ruined the experience for me, so "I" had to make it a train that is "in scale" with the locomotive.

BUT... having invested in this much of the environment I began to think that I would like to "decorate" the layout with buildings and such and that led to thinking that I would like to be able to run "trains" for "fun" without the work of firing a real locomotive... just to see a train go roundy-round. This led to looking into various methods of powering and controlling the train and I began to read the various forums that discuss them.

FOR ME... emphasis on ME, not anybody else... all the information as it is presented is very confusing and lacking in cohesiveness and for ME (again, I am talking about ME and nobody else) it is NOT understandable.

So I asked my stupid questions and I actually got the answer that has SETTLED it for ME.

I am going back to just running Live Steam, no buildings, no decorations, no roundy-round trains, no electricity, no nutin' but my Live Steamer which I enjoy without all the confusion.

Thank you all very much... I am quite a peace about it.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok,

You have talked me into it. I am going DC only!







(way too much to pass up!)

Rich


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 11:25 AM 

------I would probably be banished from all steam groups! 

Regards, Greg 
THAT...is undeniably the understatement of the day...no week...no millenium. DCC on a live steamer??? Digital sound on a live steamer??? (didn't someone do that) Whistles too high pitch....dah. Next, you'll suggest that folks install a bi-directional telemetry based DCC system in a live steamer so that they can read the steam pressure, air pressure, and fuel pressure remotely. That will inevitably lead to whole rooms in homes being converted to look like the backhead of the locomotive with full size controls...and video walls to show the track ahead...and a THUMPING sound system to provide the audible experience you like....and a computer controlled olfactory simulation so that you can smell the beast....maybe even a radiant heating system to provide variable temperatures so that you could experience the engine heating under various load conditions...and air blowers that provide a sensory cornucopia of the various "breezes" the impinge on the skin of your face . Maybe the "room" could be gimbled...so that sway and vibration could be fed back from new on-board sensors on the model live steamer you've got running on your elevated loop in the back yard.


I gotta tell ya....THAT probably sounds exciting for folks that love electronics. I like electronics too...it's part of this hobby.

Then again...when I'm running my live steam, I'll take the burnt fingers, and the smell of butane and hot oil, the subtle chuff of the cylinders, the funky whistle sound (if it has one), and the walking along parts of the live steamer part of this hobby...and love it. It's my time AWAY from electronics...


Then again...I've diverged....this is a thread about bashing DCC. Hehehehehehehehehehe.....


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

that's it. A 6 axis motion simulator of a steam loco cab, complete with wrap around video streamed back from the model loco while it's running.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok so Let's really have some fun now!! How many people like track power vs battery power!! Hah LOL now I went and did it, the "DEVIL MADE ME DO IT". For ya all bash me i use both and I run all of em. I do what I want when I want to do it!! How's that???? for a derailment??????????? hee hee The Regal 

Whoops I guess I haven't burnt my fingers on live steam yet though, so count me out on that one yet!! LOL


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Mike, all good ideas for a bidirectional R/C system, those are great ideas, water level, pressure, etc. 

It's not a matter of IF people will do that, it's a matter of WHEN. 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys are really slow to the starting gate... I starting cogitating on a cab mockup the first day I ran my Live Steamer in the rain... great fun, but I was soaked to the bone... I could not have been any wetter if I and been at the bottom of the ocean, this kind of tempered the "fun" a bit. I need a dry place to stand... but also since then I have decided that a cab mockup would also be a nice shady place when it is hot and sunny out. 

I have made drawings to get my R/C controls attached to mock levers in the cab mockup. BUT I have never persued it because I want to see the side rods working not look down the side of the boiler. When I go to a steam excursion I don't go to ride, I go to stand by the track to watch it go past. I have been in the cab while underway and although it was fun, it does not compare to standing trackside watching the crosshead, rods and valve gear. 

The only reason I might persue bi-directional R/C is so that I can check the boiler/engine status (water level, pressure, etc.) at anytime (even at speed) and not just when it is stopped near me so I can by eyes focused on the gauges in the cab.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you'd have a great deal of difficulty fitting all that 'lectronics stuff in the live steamer's cab, ESPECIALLY if were a 1:32 broadgauge loco.







Ever see the cab of an Aster or Accucraft 1:32? 10 pounds of crap in a nine pound sack! Sometimes it's very difficult to find the space for a couple of micro-servers. 'Course there's always the tender - IF it isn't all soldered together.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the electronics is nothing, it will be plumbing the sensors, and finding small enough ones. All electronics is getting smaller and smaller. You have seen how small the R/C receivers are getting. 

Something to look forward to! 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 09 Oct 2009 10:59 AM 




All kidding aside, that violates my "purist" principles, not to mention violating the whole reason I found live steam so fascinating in the first place. hehehe I know some people use electronics whistles in their steamers and that's fine with me, but it's not something I wish to do.










An electronic whistle in a live steamer (like a LGB Mikado sound system in an Aristo live steam Mikado)? 

Gee. I wonder who would commit such a sacrilege as that?









Jerry


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee. I wonder who would commit such a sacrilege as that?I know some people use electronics whistles in their steamers *and that's fine with me*Whatever floats your boat Jerry. I'm just saying it doesn't float mine.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Forget all this electronic crap and get yourself a REAL live steamer. 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 scale. REAL velves, that REALLY work and a REAL WHISTLE. A BIG WHISTLE! AND you don't need a camera in the cab. YOU are in the cab. Enuf said. Start the flaming.







Dwight knows what I mean.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 09 Oct 2009 01:08 PM 
Ok so Let's really have some fun now!! How many people like track power vs battery power!! Hah LOL now I went and did it, the "DEVIL MADE ME DO IT". For ya all bash me i use both and I run all of em. I do what I want when I want to do it!! How's that???? for a derailment??????????? hee hee The Regal 

Whoops I guess I haven't burnt my fingers on live steam yet though, so count me out on that one yet!! LOL



















I never found a system that did not have something I liked well enough to try it but I did not find any of them worth giving up the rest for.

Jeep, Suburban, Expedition, Pick Up - none of them can do everything the others can but by buying used all can be had for the price of one new one. Last years newest and bestest is often available at huge discounts and usually is good enough for me.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks similar to Torby's power routing... Radio Shack has sold that exact switch for years, I believe. 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 09 Oct 2009 03:00 PM 
Forget all this electronic crap and get yourself a REAL live steamer. 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 scale. REAL velves, that REALLY work and a REAL WHISTLE. A BIG WHISTLE! AND you don't need a camera in the cab. YOU are in the cab. Enuf said. Start the flaming.







Dwight knows what I mean.

Hate to pull the cork outta yer boat bottom, but...

You are NOT "in" the cab of any of those scale models of steamers... they are all still way to small to get an adult inside, so your head is still outside and well above the roof... right in the smoke stream...cough cough cough...

As for a real whistle, the scales you mention still have to put the whistle under the boiler or a running board to get one close to the proper size, because a "real" whistle would be almost the size of the whole boiler on some of them and would make the whole thing top heavy and unstable if it were mounted in the more usual spot on top.

Those that put a scale sized whistle in the prototypical place, although they are lower in frequency than those of the "G" gauge sizes, are still a couple of octaves too high (granted not a couple dozen too high like a "G" gauge loco, but still not "REAL").

And for that matter, my 1:32 scale Aster has "REAL" Walschaearts valve gear! It may be small and it may be a "toy" but it is just as real as any other "SCALE" locomotive!

"Red Dwarf" is on... gotta go watch it now.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

We have a 3 3/4 per foot Porter. We ARE in the cab. Rest my case. C.T. you about a 10 on the Richter scale for tension. Calm down Jees. I was comenting on the electrics. Read the damn post!

The whistle on my ten-wheeler is over 16 inches long and 2 inches in diameter. The Porter id even larger. Very nice low tone.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 09 Oct 2009 10:08 PM 
We have a 3 3/4 per foot Porter. We ARE in the cab. Rest my case. C.T. you about a 10 on the Richter scale for tension. Calm down Jees. I was comenting on the electrics. Read the damn post!

The whistle on my ten-wheeler is over 16 inches long and 2 inches in diameter. The Porter id even larger. Very nice low tone.


SPARKIES!!?!??!? Sure I totally agree with you about "dump the sparkie stuff and get a real Live Steamer" sentiment, but you didn't mention the "traditional" Garden sized scales and since the thread had wandered into electronics in a Live Steamer I though you were belittling the "G" stuff.

As for calmin' down... where's the fun in that?














Well... sorry... didn't mean to offend. But like I said, I thought you were belittling the "G" stuff, and I was just defending the "Large Scale" Live Steam faith.









Yes, I have seen a 3 3/4 per foot Porter that a person could sit in the tender and duck under the cab roof overhang to "be in the cab", but the folk that had it insisted that it was NOT a model. Even though they refered to it as a 3 3/4 scale Porter. Never understood their reasoning.







I think I have seen some others that actually had a seat IN the cab, but I don't think "I" could sit in it for any length of time before my legs went sproing and my head was on the other side of the roof (or tucked not so neatly down between my shoulder blades







).


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

C.T.,

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I have a load of garden stuff. I sure wouldn't belittle it by any means. My point, that was lost in the translation somewhere, is that why would would anyone try to replicate with all these electronic gadgets when one can get a "real" steam steamer and do it right. The bigger they get, the closer to the real stuff you get. When I'm pulling a train with the 1 1/2 steamer, my head is "in" the cab-not literally-but you're watching water, pressure, running the injector, etc. and depending where you are on the railroad, that all has to be done at the right time. If not, then your pressure drops and your busy shoveling coal and making sure you make the grade with the weight you are pulling. That's where the fun is. Not knocking sparkies (I own a Accu #346 sparkie with Phoenix sound and Airwire). I wish I could add other sounds to the system to make it more challenging. Simulating using the injectors at the appropriate time would be a great challenge as the ;loco needs water. I'm saving for an Accu 3 cylinder Shay right now (steam naturally).


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

i have one live steamer, a little ruby(currently out of commission), and it's a lot of fun. As a hobby, live steam is probably too rich for my blood, but it's a lot of fun nevertheless. My favorite part is tweaking the running characteristics to maximize run time, I've thought for a while that it would be interesting to get readouts from the cab of a live steamer--sensors that would show you water level, steam pressure, maybe a sensor that would measure the heat of the fire. A fuel guage, and a guage to show the level of water in the tender if you had a tender with water. The info would display on the remote you were using to control the steamer. It would be fun.

Of course walking alongside it adjusting it with your fingers is fun too, and there's no reason both ideas couldn't co-exist


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I like running my LS R/C mike it a change of pace and its fun to mix LS with my DCC system. Just waiting on my new K-4 that will be R/C also. Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Oct 2009 02:44 PM 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 09 Oct 2009 10:59 AM 




All kidding aside, that violates my "purist" principles, not to mention violating the whole reason I found live steam so fascinating in the first place. hehehe I know some people use electronics whistles in their steamers and that's fine with me, but it's not something I wish to do.










An electronic whistle in a live steamer (like a LGB Mikado sound system in an Aristo live steam Mikado)? 

Gee. I wonder who would commit such a sacrilege as that?









Jerry

Well in many of the videos that are posted through here I notice the engine slows noticably when tooting the whistle, that would bother me much more than a speaker
with enough bass to hear the nuances of a lonng mornful whistle. 
One could tell who was at the throttle by the way the whistle was played.

John


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

This kinda sums this whole thread up....


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Every time I see a photo of a feline on this forum I remember a time I was visiting my in-laws, where they lived across the street from a small creek near downtown Indianapolis.

When we were packing the car for the return home there was a small neigborhood boy playing nearby on the sidewalk. He was trying to pick up a russet color cat that was nearly half the boy's size. The cat had gone into a limp "wet-noodle mode" and the kid was having a hard time keeping it in the air while trying to carry it.

My Father-in-law, a kinder and gentler soul there never was, asked the boy what he was doing, and as the cat again oozed out of the kid's arms, the kid pointed toward the creek and responded, "Throooow th' kitteee in th' waaaaater."

My Father-in-law, chuckled and in a quiet voice said to the boy, "Oh no, we don't want to do that. Why don't you go throw rocks in the water?"

The kid just stared at my Father-in-law in apparent bewilderment and let the cat slowly slip and dribble to the ground. The cat then wandered a couple of feet away, fell over on one side, licked its fur a bit, stretched mightily and then laid its head down quietly.

The only thing I could do at that moment was to stretch my hand out , wiggling my fingers toward the kitty and say, "Here 'Rocks', here 'Rocks', let's go see how far we can make you 'skip'!"


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semper:

Cats are cool! A well-dried roadkill one makes a passable frisbee.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 10 Oct 2009 05:33 PM 
Semper:

Cats are cool! A well-dried roadkill one makes a passable frisbee. 




A fuzzy frisbee!


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

*Can't we all just "play nice" *







* together*











*Live steam & track-powered DCC CAN "Play Nice" *







*(as long as the steamer has electrically insulated wheelsets!). *









Regarding some of the comments on sound - the whistle & bell signals were being supplied by the Bachmann 3-truck Shay (the sounds were triggered via DCC).









*& in regard to cats:*










*This one has "priority" right-of-way on my railroad! *
















*Tom*


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