# At what track voltage should an Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet start to move?



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I'm asking as a way to find out if old oil is clogging the gears and slowing down the mallet. Also top speed is slow with 10 amps.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Often, one motor block is lagging. That causes the locomotive to take more voltage to start and limits top speed.

You might have to remove the motor blocks and test each alone. 

Very doubtful that old oil is a problem, the gearboxes are greased.

Check for drivers that have slipped out of quarter, or stripped gears.

Greg


----------



## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Might ck. out the motors like Greg. E. said at one at a time, they may has been running at long periods of time at slow hard pulls. Poles can carbon up and will run slower and draw more current. Tis will also make a miss match on motors.

Also, just might ck on gears boxes for dry out/ harden grease that become hard lumps or like dried out cement from age on older Eng. blocks.

Our two cents worth from old past problems with D/C Ho and Garden R.R.. motors.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Besides the engine having issues, top speed is a factor of voltage and current.
Connections of wire can degrade over time, and I have even seen fuses get resistive.

What is the power source/control. Supplies can be part of the issue.

What is the last thing you did before noticing the slow down?


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I see this could have various different causes so I will try to provide a little more information and ask a question about what you all have written.
I bought this second hand and have never seen one run like new, on youtube videos of Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallets they all seem to run fairly slow, not much faster than mine, my LGB OLUMANA is definitely much faster with same voltage power supply and track though. The mallet is definitely slow and I have never seen it go fast. My track is also mostly second hand and for testing I am using just 16 curved and two new long 48" straights, it runs better on the straight bits of course, because it is a test track I have only the regular joints without screws and often the weight of the loco pulls them apart , this adds to bad connectivity at times, and derailments. An important factor is my power supplies, not ideal for this loco I suspect, but good for my main project. I first used what I had, a 1 amp LGB that just managed to get it running and sometimes not at all . I then used a 3 amp power supply meant for tv cameras hooked to a RR Concepts StationMaster 4 amp and it run much better, finally ( I hope ) I bought a 10 amp tv type power supply connected to a RR Concepts StationMaster 10 amp and to my surprize it did not go faster, now I think I know why, because the top voltage is the same in both. (These inexpensive power supplies were recommended for the StationMaster by the man who owns or runs RR Concepts) 
With the 10 amp RR Concepts StationMaster and 10 amp power supply it starts moving at 2 volts and with the speed knob on top speed the multimeter records 10.9 volts. The exact same is true with the 4 amp StationMaster. The driver wheels all feel stiff and in place when I turn the mallet upside down. 
I have red what Greg has written about this mallet on his website, I particularly remember the red and yellow straws for disassembly , I am weary of taking it apart but will if I must. I imagine the important thing in this case is taking the bottom of to see the wheel mechanism , clean it and put new special grease . I really hope not but if there is something wrong with a cogwheel or a motor what do I do then?


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

Amps only limit the power that go to the tracks. Your mallet shouldn't pull more than a couple of amps. Volts is what turns the motor. Your 10 amp power supply should be able to power 4 Mallets.

I don't know the starting voltage of my Mallet. But I think that it starts before any LGB engine. LGB engines are rabbits. They are faster than most of if not all of engines by other manufacturers. My Accucraft K-27,28 would be lapped in a short track race by any LGB ENGINE. Likewise with my Aristo mallet, and Bachmann Ks.

In real life the Mallet was designed to pull heavy freight load over steep and curvy mountain railroads. They were built for power, not speed. In my opinion the Aristo Mallet fills that bill. As an example, I take my Mallet out to Dr. Rivet's events. I pull a consist with 32 iron ore cars, a battery car and a caboose. On his modest 0.6% grade it doesn't even slow down. Some other engines, with far less loads, need help on that grade.

Chuck


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

It is most definitely strong. My goddess! nothing seems to stop it.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm using a 18.5volt battery. At 10 volts I would imagine it moves very slowly. I've thought about going up to a 22 volt battery.

Most large scale power supplies top out at 18-24v. I'm not surprised that you are having problems at 10.

Chuck


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks Chuck, that is great news, so probably all o.k. However since I bought it second hand there is only one way to find out what state it really is in and that is to perform a general service . I feel I should try to do this with the help of the forum, cheque that everything is working properly and check if anything needs to be replaced. I know only then will I be able to run it without worrying that it will suddenly be seriously damaged. Like what happened to my Bachmann big hauler , the nylon worm and toothed wheel where suddenly toothless and burnt out and I had to buy a new chassis, fortunately the chassis was very inexpensive. I won't have such luck with this. I will put away the mallet until I have the time to do this properly next year. The link you sent on my firs thread in this forum will come in handy then (looks compex) 
By the way if one was to need replacing cogwheels or motors or other parts are they at all available?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck is right, 10 volts is too low voltage for G scale, you need at least 18v on the rails under load for most locos, most people target a max voltage of 24.

Starting at 2 volts is great, sounds like the mallet may be fine, and not all have both motor blocks start at exactly the same speed.

Greg


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks Greg, now the big Q on my mind is new 24v power supply or batteries for the mallet, I know there is an ongoing debate on this that started years ago, also that more people are going over to batteries because of the hassle of keeping power flowing on every single rail. In my case batteries for the mallet would be an option, since I only need the 24v for the mallet. Everything else I know I want running on the RR CONCEPTS STATIONMASTERS for my every half hour automatic project. 
With batteries I would have to invest on DCC righ?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd read my battery vs. track power section on my site. (Also in the DCC section)

I find the "right" answer is pretty easy to determine when you sit down and look at your priorities, and how large your fleet will grow and budget, and how electrically challenged you are, environment, etc.

Greg


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With batteries, you've a whole range of control products available to you. Airwire, Crest Revolution, RCS (Australia), RailLinx (RCS America), G-Scale Graphics' Railboss, and probably one or two more that I'm forgetting or that are no longer manufactured but still available 2ndhand. Of those, Airwire is the only one that uses the DCC control standard and offers a DCC output for sound or lighting function control decoders. (Which is only important if you must use a DCC sound or lighting control board.) Pretty much all of the boards will interface with a Phoenix or other 3rd-party standalone sound system, and most have at least some degree of lighting function control. 

As for which system is right for you, first think about what level of control you desire. If you're after very basic control over speed and direction, then all of the various systems should do what you want. If you're looking to have very fine control over the speed, maybe control multiple locos with one transmitter, control lots of lights, sounds, etc., then your choices narrow a bit. Of those listed, Airwire is probably the most full-featured, with Crest's Revolution running a close second. Those are the two systems I predominantly use, because I like the high level of control they give me. It's been a while since I've used RCS Australia and Railboss' stuff, so they may have increased their functionality as well. I know RCS Australia has been working on new handheld transmitters to run their (and Railboss's, I believe) receivers. 

I'd think for the mallet, you could get away with either an 18 or 21 volt battery. I did one with a 14 volt battery, and it was plenty fast enough for the owner, but it's not going to set any land speed records. 

Later,

K


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you just want to run it around a loop with no other control, I would suggest just a 14volt battery with no other controls. There is a track/battery switch on the engine. If you want more control you can use track power. The 14 volt will be a reasonable speed. Wire it through an on/off switch. From what you have described, I think a constant voltage battery will suffice.

You can use a DPDT switch if you want reverse.


Chuck


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you all for all the advice, Chuck, is it then possible to run on batteries without DCC? How then does one control start, stop, speed and direction?


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought you wanted to just run it around for about 30 minutes. Just forward at a constant speed. If you want to vary the speed and direction, then you need more control than I suggested.

Years ago I built a battery car with a rheostat, from an old HO power supply, and a DPDT switch. I could control the speed speed manually with the rheostat and the direction with the switch.

Chuck


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Quite right Chuck, I was just about to edit my text but you beat me to it, I must get my ideas clear, Truth is I don't know exactly what I want to do with the mallet, I don't know if it will fit on my RR Concepts StationMaster projects, on the first project it won't fit because it has tight curves on the corner of the room, the second project might work because it will have ample curves, but both of them have track suspended high up and I'm scared to think what would happen if such a heavy and fragile loco would fall the distance to a tile floor or on top of somebody. As I was testing it yesterday I was thinking that it would be great to see it start very gradually and speed up slowly to max speed with synchronised shuffs and smoke. From there the idea of more power and possibly with batteries. The synched sound and smoke is no problem but so far the StationMaster has not managed gradual acceleration or top speed with the mallet., but come to think of it , it should be capable of very gradual acceleration. First thing I must find out if The StationMaster 10 amp can take 20 volts.


----------



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I just found out two important aspects of the StationMaster, the 4 amp can take 18v. Perhaps that is sufficient and perhaps the 10 amp version can take 24v? The RR Concepts page is down, I will email him. The gradual accel with the StationMaster is only possible once accel and decel sensors have been placed which I have not done yet. 
I must try this first. Perhaps all I need is an 18v power supply and installing accell and decel sensors.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

I just went out and did some measurements on my Mallet.

I'm using an AristoCraft revolution for control and a Cordless Revolution Li-ion battery, 18.5 volts and 5200ma.

The REVO control reads in percent of full voltage. The engine started moving at about 16%, which calculates to 2.96 v.

At 100% voltage, 18.5, it took 33 seconds for a complete trip. At a scale of 1:29, that is an average speed of about 53 scale MPH. The circumference of the mainline is 87'. It is not level and curves are all 10' diameter. The up and down should balance out.

I do not think that the REVO as I'm using it is DCC. I know next to nothing about DCC. It is just controlling the DC as it come out of the battery.


Chuck


----------

