# DCC to control Lights, throttle, sound, and smoke



## dperrott (Aug 12, 2010)

Is there a DCC solution that controls the lights, throttle, sound, and smoke?

I hi-jacked a conversation (sorry) in the beginners forum asking questions about DCC. I have learned allot from the comments but it leads me to another question that I better think would be answered here.

I am researching QSI Quantum Magnum for my USA F3 AB but I am not seeing the ability to control smoke and aux lights (mars, running, extra lights...).

Am I missing something or are addtional decoder cards required to control the smoke and aux lights when using the QSI products?

Are there other DCC products on the market (other than QSI) that can control lights, throttle, sound and smoke?

Thanks for your input in advance.

Dan


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right that QSI decoders can't control the accessory lights--they can do headlights only. For a while it seemed they were going to make a lighting control board--I'm not sure whatever happened to that. You can rig up a second, small lighting decoder to control accessory lights--there are a number of those available. I've never done it though. And there are other sound and motor decoders that DO offer lighting control. Zimo, for example, and I believe ESU both make decoders with more lighting control



I'm not sure about smoke generators--some decoders may turn them on and off. MTH may be your best bet if you want to control the smoke generator with a remote


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Buy a TCS FL4, about $14, small, runs 4 lights, tons of lighting effects. You can add a transistor or relay to it to control smoke. You can set it to the same DCC address and use the "decoder lock" feature to be able to program it separately, or you can add switches to disable the qsi and the fl4 separately for independent programming. 

The accessory lighting board never made it because the cost to manufacture was deemed too high to make it attractive, almost $80 was the estimate. 

And yes, there are other single board units that do sound, motor, and lighting over just headlight and rear headlight. 

My attraction to the QSI was the wide range of US sounds, and it's less expensive, the programmer is cheaper, and they are adding and updating features all the time. 

The QSI has some shortcomings, it has difficulty with slow speeds with certain motors, and it's missing the other lighting outputs that are so common. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The ZIMO decoders do an excellent job. Load dependant smoke if you use a fan driven smoke unit. Many function outputs with many programming options including Mars lighting, regualr blinking...

The ZIMO Decoders are integrated DCC controllers with sound.

For more information:
[email protected]

ZIMO has the very best motor control as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I might add another distinction, the Zimo, ESU, and QSI are basically the only decoders that also vary the sounds according to the real load on the loco. That's another audible difference and increase in realism. 

Regards, Greg


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## dperrott (Aug 12, 2010)

OK - I have been doing allot of reading through the forums and came up with another question. 

I was wondering about the combination of using the airwire decoder/Phoenix sound with the wireless Gwire DCC Throttle. Does anyone have experience using the GWire with the Airwire equipment? Since I run mostly USAT engines, I am interested in the Airwire drop-ins that seem to be available. I am assuming that they should be 100% DCC compatible.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

As Greg pointed out, ZIMO has a few tricks in the bag that are based on the integrated architecture. Ripping sound and motor control apart weakens that experience. 

In addition, it's time to end the myth of plug and play.

USATrains, Aristocraft, LGB or anybody else for that matter optimize their engine/light controls for analog operation. Point in case in some instances you find the use of dual color LEDs that have a common cathode, but for DCC you need a common anode. Plug an play just simply gives you motor and front and rear lights. The bare bone basics. As soon as you want to have control over individual features/lights, plug and play is at it's wits end. For one it is impossible to have a common standard for European Diesel, European Steam, RhB Electro, RhB Diesel, RhB Steam, US Steam, US Diesel. Too many different feature requirements - basically non compatible.

If manufacturers would have understood that from the get-go they would have forgone the attempt to standardize a DCC interface, but would have terminated all individual lights, smoke and other effects on a terminal block and would have attached the analog electronic to it.

I have not found a single engine, where I wanted to implement to most detailed and prototypical functionality, were we didn't have to take out the analog electronics, terminated traces on light boards and re-run the wires in the entire engine.

We recently converted a USA Trains bigboy which we gutted from all its electronic boards in order to have complete control over everything. We even equipped it with two sound decoders running un-synchronized, just like the real thing, puffing steam synchronized to the chuffs and so on.

There is not a single engine (unless we go for simple implementation) were the existing electronic is of any value.


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## dperrott (Aug 12, 2010)

Axel - 

I was reading on the airwire website that they have created a replacement board for selected USAT locos that are true replacement boards. They are ready-to-go with connections to track power or battery, phoenix sound card, front/rear headlights, aux lights, ditch lights, cab lights, dome flasher, and smoke generator. It is a full DCC wireless board that completely replaces the board using the same mounting screws as the original board. It seems to have everything - including a few new lighthing options not in the USAT locos. 

They have created boards for the F3A, F3B, SD80MAC, GP7/9, and GP38-2. - all plug and play. 

Are you saying that these boards are a myth? They were supposed to be released in spring 2010. What I don't know is if they have truely hit the market. 

I have not read anything about these DCC decoder cards on the forums. Of course, I am still reading....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I saw them at the show in in June. I forget if it was the BTS or the SWGRS. 

They had actual hardware there and showed several different versions for the different locos. 

Looks like an easy way to convert. I have two prototype QSI units for USAT locos, and they are also truly plug and play. A few more plugs, since there's a lot more connections, usually 3 separate connectors, one for the rear lights, one for the front, and often one for cab lights. Oh, one for smoke units. 

You unplug these, remove the USAT "motherboard", bolt the new one in place, and reconnect the wires. 

As far as I know, none have been shipped, but memory tells me that CVP had projected delivery dates on their site. 

I think it's a "serious" product. 

Keep in mind that the CVP product is without sound, but hooking up a DCC sound unit to the CVP system is 2 wires (plus the speaker). CVP upgraded the "DCC output" to over an amp if I remember correctly, so basically any DCC sound board should work. The obvious choice is a Phoenix, but you should be able to use smaller, less expensive HO units also. 

Regards, Greg


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## dperrott (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks again Greg. You have been a wealth of information to me. I have spent my day on the couch with my laptop (watching the Colts/SF game) researching the boards. I come up with questions and this forum (and you) have supplied answers that make a lot of sense to me. 

Well going on - I did not see the CVP delivery schedule but I sent them an email asking for availability information. Hopefully they will respond tomorrow. 

The other question I asked was if the Airwire decoder can be easily used with the Gwire wireless throttle. What is your thoughts on mixing these 2. 

Dan


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

All the plug and play locos I have seen have all lights either on or off except for direction lights. 

I like being able to control the head/tail lights as one entity, and the cabin light separately, and side lights separate. 

Speed controlled smoke motors are awesome to watch. 

Unfortunately the 8 pin plug and play sockets are not wired for all this. 

So, when installing DCC, there are many choices to be made when choosing a decoder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan, sorry, missed that part. 

The Gwire throttle from NCE is an excellent (and in my opinion, superior) throttle for use with AirWire. It is menu-driven, larger display that shows more characters, and also has a lot of specific buttons to make common operations easier, faster and more straightforward. I especially like the availability of all 28 special functions and the consisting commands. 

I evaluated both at my house for a month and prefer the NCE Gwire. You can use both throttle types at the same time on a layout no problem. The only downside of the Gwire is size, it does not fit in a shirt pocket, but you can put a belt clip on it easily (use a clip from a tape measure). 

Dan, in this case, the USAT locos do not have a socket, they have all these connectors already, they do not have the Aristo socket, nor a DCC socket, thus they are not limited. 

The USAT is not classified as a plug and play "loco", but CVP (and QSI soon) make plug and play replacement boards that allow the independent control of all the stock lights on the USAT locos (since they are already wired independently) 

(plug and play locos are pretty limited to ones with the Aristo socket, or some of the Bachmann with the 8 pin NMRA socket, which as you state don't have anything other than the 2 headlights) 

On my USAT GP7, the headlight, the rear headlight, the cab light and the red/green marker lights are all controlled independently. 











The CVP works exactly the same way. I have some pictures of them if needed. 


Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Just in case that others miss the duplicate thread as well:

"The Airwire replacement boards almost proof one thing - no standardization among any of these engine types. At least LGB had in the last few years only one Interface board (sometimes with more or less components), that allowed for a replacementboard instead. But we also experienced that that doesn't do the trick.

Point in case - we currently have a USA Trains engine open, and the running boards as well as the dual headlights are powered by the same two lead wire which goes to a common circuit board. If you care to turn running boards seperately from the head lights on, if you care to allow alternatively blinking headlights - just to name two Diesel features then you don't have access to them. As I mentioned before you need to cut trtaces on the front and rear lightin boards and run seperate wires. Now with the replacement board I didn't see any extra inputs?

If there are can you switch between blinking and and non blinking? Can you do high-beam, low beam?

Can you add additional lights, that are curerntly not part of the engine? I have seen on my cross country rides many ditch lights, staircase lights.... that I would love to model - if I would do American Diesel (as you might know I am an RhB nut).

Another topic, do you have (or do you care) about load dependant smoke generation (some of these engines have two smoke units in them).

And last not least, a seperate sound board not integrated into the circuits can't opertate based on the motor information and have optimally synchronized sound.

Now, on some of these topics it would be great to supplement this thread with detailed prototype lighting information. Most manufactuers have only a fraction of the lights the real engine has. 
- Is the blinking as seen on the previous HO video done by the headlights correct?
- But not all the time? - (only on railroad crossings?)
- What about the blinking roof lights, which engines have them, when are they used? (switching yard).
- When double, tripple ..... heading, which lights are On/Off on which engine
- Are engineers cabin lights allowed to be on while drivin, or does it make sense to program the decoder to auto-switch off the cabin lights once the engine moves?

Many more questions I presume, so anybody that wants to chime in and educate me."


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I have an open GP7 on the bench - I can't see that.  Two wires go to the front and two wires to the rear circuit board (call them lighitng boards).  The red/green marker lights, the running boards, and the headlights are all fed from these two wires.
 
If your engine is differently wired, then one also has to pay attention to whihc GP7 one has and when did the change occur, intial series or current series?
 
I have pcitures if you need to see it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are different versions of wiring in USAT locos. The "old style" was exactly as you are seeing, with the large 2 pin connectors. 

Later versions of most USAT diesels have a 3 pin connector with a common ground. 

Also the voltages vary, usually the 2 pin style (older) is 5 volts, and the 3 pin style (newer) is track voltage or 12v. 

If you try to order a headlight bulb for a GP7, you will get an 12-18 volt bulb, you cannot get the 5v bulbs any more from USAT. (Trust me, I know this the hard way). 

Regards, Greg


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## dperrott (Aug 12, 2010)

Just an update from yesterday when I sent an email to CVP. I asked them when the plug and play boards for the USAT locos were going to be available. This is the email trail.... 

ME - Just wanted to know if the F3A/F3B USAT drop-ins are available yet. And if so, where can I get them from? 
CVP - Drop-Ins are not ready yet. We are waiting for the delivery of one part so we can build lots of them! Hopefully it will not be much longer. 
ME - Is there a date that you are shooting at to make them available? I am trying to determine if I should wait or purchase other products. 
CVP - If time is a factor here then by all means look elsewhere. Right now we are looking at approx 4 weeks and that could change. We are at the mercy of external vendors and we have no control over them. The 4 week timeline is subject to change. 

It just seemed strange to me that they did not try to say to wait. I have a feeling it will be longer than 4 weeks...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, if they knew it was 4 weeks for sure then why lose a sale? I don't know of one manufacturer in model trains that can afford to lose sales. 

Maybe they don't want angry customers and have no clue when the parts are really arriving. 

Strange response. I saw prototypes in June, you would figure that they could get any parts in 2 months unless they designed in a very unique part. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The GP7 Axel and I are working on with 2 wires to each end for lighting uses LM317s and are adjusted to 3 volts. 5 volts will burn out this locos bulbs real fast and may even melt the plastic.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I used a Zimo controller when I converted one of my MTH F7s to DCC (The slave got converted). The lights were all 5V with the exception of a pair of LED marker lights. It does smoke, although I haven't finished that portion of the conversion yet because I need almost an amp at 5V (I have a switching regulator that I plan to use for that). The conversion sounds good, works well, and Zimo seemed to have fewer anomalies in wiring and configuring it compared to the other controllers I have played with. I did end up springing for the sound programmer so I could customize it as I changed my mind several times about how I wanted it to sound. The Zimo also has a servo control on it which I am still pondering how to utilize. 

Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

use a servo to make a powered coupler... 

You can also use the PWM outputs to control the fan speed of the smoke units to ramp up and down with the diesel notches...... 

Greg


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The F7 came with a powered coupler ... I just haven't bothered to figure out how to power it (don't want to burn it up). 

Yes the variable fan speed is in the plans also - the problem now is that the engine runs great and my wife doesn't like the smell of the smoke so the drive to finish it has dropped off for now - it will probably wait for a cold and wet winter day when I can't run trains or work comfortable outside (oh wait - its been too hot and humid to work outside most of the summer). 

I read somewhere that MTH has ProtoSmoke in different scents ... I need to investigate that. 

Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, you can get all the flavors on amazon.com too... 

Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

some of those do not smell as good as they sound 


when it says pine think burning pine

or coffee is burnt coffee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if the coal one is any good... would be more authentic... 

They have a barbecue flavor... ugh... burned bbq? 

Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I have the Vanilla its pretty good, and I like it works great in my Triplex!!! Gonna try the hot apple pie, and cinnamon next, but do like the Vanilla!! Regal


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

coal is ok I also sell a lot of ceder and diesel which has a oil tint to it


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