# This is not good



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.staubinonline.com/store/NewsUpdates.html


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Sadly it's a sign of the times. Fortunitly they still have there main store in Ill to fall back on.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, 

If you think this is not good, wait until next year when a true depression hits. AND it will! Too much borrowed money and with a dollar that is now virtually worthless, thanks to the Bush and Obama admins coninuing to print more and more "monopoly" money!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya wait till you got to buy some track. Yikes. Sad that they had to close that store. i had gone there couple of times. Later RJD


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I find it interesting that they are willing to reduce their overhead by closing the Junction in order to keep the prices low. Obviously, they have made the decision that $$$ will trump loyalty to a local brick and mortar hobby store! (They're probably dead on right!) While it's sad that another location is gone, at least we can take comfort that some of the retailers realize that raising prices isn't always the answer! If this keeps St. Aubin's competitive and prices relatively stable then I applaud them for their courage in taking the necessary steps to deal with this recession and stay in business. I _sincerely_ hope that massive price increases won't become necessary in the near future or this hobby really _will_ be in trouble!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Unfortunitly i think the hobby its self is going to be in great trouble because of the price of TRACK!!!!!!!!!!! If you cant afford that why buy anything else. I talk to so many people that wish to start LS but when they price track, there put off considering the smaller scales have not raised the price of there track anywere near were Aristo did that started this whole mess in the 1st place. Wonder why the smaller scales dont do % increase on track but our buddies in NJ did ? then the other manufactures followed......
ONE word comes to my mind..... GREED...........


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 28 Dec 2009 05:10 PM 
Sadly it's a sign of the times. Fortunitly they still have there main store in Ill to fall back on. 



More such outlets will certainly fail, possibly including the Illinois store.  We ARE in a serious economic situation that is unlikely to improve over the coming year, at least until AFTER the elections in November.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Nick, 
i woun't contradict you, because without greed (the wish to make money) nobody would produce anything at all. 

but there is one difference. every three foot of largescale track do consist of a pound of brass.(plus plastic) 
while a pound of H0 track (ties, rail and all) lays 42 foot. 
in the smaller scales they need so little raw material compared to G-scale, that they can sell cheaper.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

November is not going to change anything. The November before that didn't....and the several before that didn't. Both parties are scum. They are equally worthless. 
I vote indepenant so I can vote for someone who I think will work and even that has failed.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

Vegas is one of the top regions hit with the worst of this fumble of a economy. Most residents of Vegas are just trying to stay in there homes that they over payed for. I doubt they are headed on over the St Aubins to make a purchase. I would imagine a large if not almost all of St Aubins sales come from internet/phone sales. They can ship all over the country from there Ill branch that is almost smack in the middle of the country. Why would they need double inventory, double staffing, double etc... when they can do it all from one branch. If i was an owner of St Aubins I would consider closing the branch to stay more proffitable. 
I can't believe that nobody has brought up the old thread about St.Aubins changing of there pricing policy and advertising. I said back then that I would not purchase from them anymore cause I did not see why I had to join there "club" to get the best price. Well that was then and this is now. I have not purchased anything from them in over 2 years and do not plan on ever doing so. They need to go back to the way they used to do business. KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. 
Glen


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 28 Dec 2009 06:42 PM 
November is not going to change anything. The November before that didn't....and the several before that didn't. Both parties are scum. They are equally worthless. 
I vote indepenant so I can vote for someone who I think will work and even that has failed. 



  One cannot give up that easily, although I tend to agree with your basic sentiment.  As far as MANY others AND myself are concerned, ALL our hopes are pinned on what happens in November FOR STARTERS. If substantial changes do not occur, STARTING with that next set of elections, we KNOW where this ship is sailing . . . 



On the immediate matter of these brick-and-mortar large-scale train shops, and the LS hobby as a whole, a continuation of this economic trend will almost certainly kill most of it off.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

This is bad news for MLSer and Steamaholic Mark Johnson who works at St. Aubins LV. Mark, if you read this, post a message and let us know how you're doing!


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Bummer. I'm going to be in Vegas in June as was planning to stop in and load up... rats. 

I guess the good news is I'm planning to move back to Illinois in a couple of years anyway..


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By blackburn49 on 28 Dec 2009 07:37 PM 
Posted By John J on 28 Dec 2009 06:42 PM 
November is not going to change anything. The November before that didn't....and the several before that didn't. Both parties are scum. They are equally worthless. 
I vote indepenant so I can vote for someone who I think will work and even that has failed. 



One cannot give up that easily, although I tend to agree with your basic sentiment. As far as MANY others AND myself are concerned, ALL our hopes are pinned on what happens in November FOR STARTERS. If substantial changes do not occur, STARTING with that next set of elections, we KNOW where this ship is sailing . . . 



On the immediate matter of these brick-and-mortar large-scale train shops, and the LS hobby as a whole, a continuation of this economic trend will almost certainly kill most of it off. 


I ahve not given up Ron....I am just stating a fact. Am saying nither party is any good......Look back as far as the First Bush...What Really Has changed that much. What Really have they done.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is just not enough local business to justify the Nevada store. The extra freight from the other store is not enough to make it up for internet shoppers. 

the LV store was nice that there was no tax and less shipping to CA, but this only makes sense. 

I think it's good that St. Aubins has the common sense to focus on their main business and keep prices low. 

Regards, Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark Johnson, an old time MLSer who has a great layout in his back yard, was managing the Las Vegas store...and was present at all the West Coast shows hosting the St Aubins booth. I sure hope all is well with him. He's a good buddy...and a great guy.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Ditto what MikeR. said. Mark is a great guy. Mark also took great care of people at the NGRC in Denver.

Mark, if you are reading this thread, you have a personal email from me sent to your St.Aubins email address.

JimC.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

If they need to close one store, the smart move would be to close the Ill store. Nevada has no state income tax, of any kind, and do not tax on-hand inventory. Several online retailers are here because of those reasons. MSC Supply, Enco Tools, Summit Racing to name a few. Add the fact that that there are gillions of square feet of vacant space in this town, available for a song.

Mark could run the whole operation.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

hah


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By xo18thfa on 28 Dec 2009 10:25 PM 
If they need to close one store, the smart move would be to close the Ill store. Nevada has no state income tax, of any kind, and do not tax on-hand inventory. Several online retailers are here because of those reasons. MSC Supply, Enco Tools, Summit Racing to name a few. Add the fact that that there are gillions of square feet of vacant space in this town, available for a song.

Mark could run the whole operation.

The company I just got let go from has been crying for years about saving money. Many of us suggested to look into Nevada because of the tax breaks.

They did not even concider out suggestions. We were just field people had had no idea what we were taling about.

Nevada Would have enabled us to send parts out for next day delivery on the East Coast at even a later hour. All the suggestions we ever summited were ignored.

They all know whats best.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

The Il store has a huge landscape business also, dont think they are going to shut that down to soon. I have been to there open house in Il for a couple of years, dont like there customer service, very cold to customers, could not get anyone to help you, thats why I dont go there or shop there, and its only 1 hour away from me.

Tom H


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Sounds like it might be a good time to start a new Large Scale store in Las Vegas. There is already a knowledge base (Mark J) and centraly located for the southwest. Use the KISS principle, start small and mostly online, find a supplier and sell track as cheap as possible, then grow with the economy. 
Steve


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

The only surefire way to make a small fortune in the hobby business is to start with a *large* one......


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Didn't they build/remodel the store there recently?


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes they did. I suspect they may have overbuilt in light of the economy and are now feeling the pinch. Too bad really.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's overhead. If you do mostly Internet sales, you want the cheapest warehouse on the cheapest land you can find. Like I said, they most likely do not need 2 locations until volume increases and the extra shipping cost becomes a problem. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave F on 29 Dec 2009 10:57 AM 
Yes they did. I suspect they may have overbuilt in light of the economy and are now feeling the pinch. Too bad really. 

That is a shame. From the photos, it looked nice.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 28 Dec 2009 06:30 PM 
Nick, 
i woun't contradict you, because without greed (the wish to make money) nobody would produce anything at all. 

but there is one difference. every three foot of largescale track do consist of a pound of brass.(plus plastic) 
while a pound of H0 track (ties, rail and all) lays 42 foot. 
in the smaller scales they need so little raw material compared to G-scale, that they can sell cheaper. 

Kormsen,
Just sticking my toe in the water here, but 'greed' is better defined as the inordinate drive to make money, despite scruples. The desire to make money can be 'acquisitiveness, _ambition_, or drive', to name a few. To some buyers, 'greed' is asking a price at more than it costs to produce the item. The concept of 'fair market value' is beyond their understanding. To them, skill, labor and knowledge should be given away free--to them, because they lack all of it.

If Aristocraft or whomever puts a high price on track, and sells it successfully, of course other manufacturers are going to raise theirs, to increase their profits against the day when they make a bad investment, or the economy turns sour. Or to make an easy buck. That isn't greed, it's opportunism.

When a manufacturer corners the market in brass, say, and then charges whatever he likes, that isn't greed either, it's being better at business than the competition.

Greed is where laws & regulations are subverted and plain old naked power can force people to pay more for what they need. Need, not want. No one needs brass track. Everyone needs bread.

Les


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's my two cents on the post! for what its worth! ever ordered from either one, and now especially because of an association with one certain person we all know who!! When I did try to order several years back from the one back east was put off because of testing by they're service tech on a certain product which they had no input on!! By the time they got back to me and told me it was wonderful, I had already bought somewhere else, and had found out it is wonderful on my own, and am into the product completely, and it is to me the best product out there in this particular field even two years later and there have been upgrades on it since!! which makes said product even better!! The Regal 

p.s. they have always been too high compared to others when shopped around!!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

The problem with sticking body parts in the water is they usually get bitten off when you dont know what or who your dealing with in said Water....















And Jerry your only giving 1 and cents of info not 2...... HA HA HA Korm i will PM you some time and explain my comment, as it seems someone STILL doesnt have a clue and im not talking about you....


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 29 Dec 2009 04:09 PM 
The problem with sticking body parts in the water is they usually get bitten off when you dont know what or who your dealing with in said Water....













I'll risk it.


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

and the tread takes a downward spiral...... 

back to St Aubins. LV. Been there! Liked the store. Liked the inventory. The economy is taking lots of businsess down to the wire. I know I've slowed my spending.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Les on 29 Dec 2009 05:50 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 29 Dec 2009 04:09 PM 
The problem with sticking body parts in the water is they usually get bitten off when you dont know what or who your dealing with in said Water....













I'll risk it.



You should and Good for you, Im impressed.......














Not!!!!!!!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Les, your definition of greed and applying it to business does not match the universal definition of greed. 

Please consult a dictionary: "excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions." 

Greed, greediness denote an excessive, extreme desire for something, often more than one's proper share. Greed means avid desire for gain or wealth (unless some other application is indicated) and is definitely uncomplimentary in implication: His greed drove him to exploit his workers. 

The key is excessive, and more than one's proper share. Gouging people on brass because you can get away with it is greed, not good business (except to greedy people) 



Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Dec 2009 08:44 PM 
Les, your definition of greed and applying it to business does not match the universal definition of greed. 

Please consult a dictionary: "excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions." 

Greed, greediness denote an excessive, extreme desire for something, often more than one's proper share. Greed means avid desire for gain or wealth (unless some other application is indicated) and is definitely uncomplimentary in implication: His greed drove him to exploit his workers. 

The key is excessive, and more than one's proper share. Gouging people on brass because you can get away with it is greed, not good business (except to greedy people) 



Regards, Greg 






I wasn't trying to put forth a 'universal definition' because there isn't one--as you so competently illustrate in your last sentence, while ignoring the minor question, "Who determines 'one's proper share'?" I was writing a friend whose first language isn't American English with the intent of presenting shades of meaning as applied to the subject at hand.

Regards, Les


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Les on 29 Dec 2009 09:21 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Dec 2009 08:44 PM 
Les, your definition of greed and applying it to business does not match the universal definition of greed. 

Please consult a dictionary: "excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions." 

Greed, greediness denote an excessive, extreme desire for something, often more than one's proper share. Greed means avid desire for gain or wealth (unless some other application is indicated) and is definitely uncomplimentary in implication: His greed drove him to exploit his workers. 

The key is excessive, and more than one's proper share. Gouging people on brass because you can get away with it is greed, not good business (except to greedy people) 



Regards, Greg 






I wasn't trying to put forth a 'universal definition' because there isn't one--as you so competently illustrate in your last sentence, while ignoring the minor question, "Who determines 'one's proper share'?" I was writing a friend whose first language isn't American English with the intent of presenting shades of meaning as applied to the subject at hand.

Regards, Les

Yup what ever????????????







As usual no good info?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Track prices (for whatever reasons ) ARE a huge deterent to any newbie or even those just looking to expand, the prices are just thru the roof to do even a basic layout.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

All the more reason to consider aluminium track and battery R/C right from the get go.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen, civility and respect, please. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin. 
I inserted a Smilie in my post to indicate it was a joke. Any idea what happened to the Smilie?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 29 Dec 2009 11:24 PM 
Track prices (for whatever reasons ) ARE a huge deterent to any newbie or even those just looking to expand, the prices are just thru the roof to do even a basic layout. 
Again, other than handlaying track, they have all gone up in all scales. I about choked when I saw what some friends were paying for the Lionel FastTrack the other weekend. Yet the Lionel was flying off the shelves?

The funny thing for me is the few dealers I have talked to have told me this has been a decent to great year. But the SE US has not been hit as hard as other areas.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 29 Dec 2009 11:24 PM 
Track prices (for whatever reasons ) ARE a huge deterent to any newbie or even those just looking to expand, the prices are just thru the roof to do even a basic layout. 




I read where the Chinese were buying all the copper they could get their hands on last year. World market prices for copper were very high. I suspect that's where the boost in prices came from. Have you priced a roll of 12-2 w ground lately?







Sheesh.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, you're smiling on my computer









I think you guys have been watching too much 2012 coverage on the history channel.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Tony, my warning wasn't aimed at you. I see your smiley on my screen. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with youl, though, Tony, about the aluminum track. I just bought some for my son-in-law at just over $2/foot. The track is very light, but, to me, appears to be as strong, or rigid, as brass. Not trying to provoke anyone, but for battery power folks, it is an answer to a prayer!!

Ed


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

What happened to that Nylon track that Bill Frank was showing about at the Phoenix NGRC? It looked good enough for me to consider using.
Rod F.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 29 Dec 2009 11:36 PM 
All the more reason to consider aluminum track and battery R/C right from the get go.  









 That combination has certainly worked out well for me over the years !


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Well boys heres the offical explanation why track prices are so high......
Quote
Dear All,

Our track is almost 80% pure copper, not the lower grades other makers use. Our rail size is probably 100 times the size of H.O. track rail, yet copper seems to work the best not leaving many choices. If you want track, than we have to treat it as a commodity and it's not our fault we're paying several times more than we used to for the rail. 

The truth is that our track unit sales have increased in the past year, so we foresee a better G Gauge train climate. If track was a tiny percent of our sales we would artificially keep track prices low to encourage the growth of the hobby. However, track is a key component of our business and inventory investment, so it's not possible to sell track at a loss and stay in business. As copper fluctuates in price we will run special sales, but it's unlikely copper will dip in price again anytime soon.

While the price of track is up it's not far from where it was in the 1970's through the late 80's and the G Gauge market flourished at that price point. It will continue to grow this year as the economy stabilizes and we will continue to maintain strong inventories of track.

While we need to make a profit to stay in business, were not gouging the marketplace or our competitors would take us to task with their pricing.

Please note that we did not raise any prices this year other than track.

All the best,




Who says the NJ boys dont watch this site every day.......


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## jaffesMom (Dec 30, 2009)

when will these jersey boys learn!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Also for you cheap track folk, Axle from train li is now selling the nylon track. I just bought a 1000 ft of it to use for different projects and it only cost me with my MLS discount under a 100.00 for a 1000 ft thats a bargin. he's also selling the new ties he had made as well in different colors but the nice thing is the look like concrete ties. i will post pictures soon... the rail come in bulk packs of a 100 and are 5ft long for 50.00


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

The solution to the spendy track blues is 2 part.

1. Buy used

2. Learn to live with R-1 curves, or perhaps how to re-curve them.


Both are cheap enough and fairly plentiful -- if you're smart and willing to wait for the right bargain to come along.


I'm reminded of that old machinist's sign...

You can have it fast
You can have it cheap
You can have it good
Pick two 


I'll admit, I haven't priced bulk brass lately, but dies and extrusion machines were never particularly cheap. If you know a buddy who works with an extruder, ask him how much for a code 250, 225. 332 or whatever size rail die. - Then add the cost another die for a plastic injection molding machine,

maybe you can outsource the actual manufacturing - then figure out how many miles of track you'd have to sell (at whatever price you feel is 'fair') to pay for it - PLUS remember to ask how long you can use those dies before the quality starts to go south and you'll need another one made. Then don't forget labor costs, packaging, shipping to your wholesale distribution point, insurance, physical plant, taxes, etc, etc,


Then compare how much profit you'd make doing that vs making something else (To do more than just survive, you have to think in terms of economic profit, not just accounting profit) 


And then get back to us with solid facts about how much the toy companies are actually gouging.

I used to have certification as a manufacturing technologist with the SME (not to be confused with the ASME) - there's a lot more involved in the price of any goods than just the cost of raw materials. 


And while we're at it, before complaining about something being "too expensive" -- Stop to think about whether what you are willing to pay, is anywhere near what it costs to MAKE it... with domestic labor -- so you (or someone like you) might still have a job to pay for it. If it isn't, maybe there's something else wrong? (Yeah, I know, everybody makes too much $$ but you, nice try.) 


Or just gripe because it makes you feel better....


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Regards to all, 

19 years ago when I made my first large scale purchase (an LGB motor block), I spent a lot of time with my local hobby guy. He was driving a schoolbus, mornings and afternoons, so that he could (with his Marine Corps retirement) keep the shop open. With customers expecting him to price compete with mail order ads, whose retail prices were lower than his costs. It can't be done. 

Then, I visited an Orlando hobby shop, where the owner demanded to know if I bought from stores or from mail order. And pretty well ignored me after I said both. 

Even before the recession, it was muderously difficult to keep a hobby shop solvent in any but the largest markets. And the guys who do probably make a lot more on R/C cars and airplanes than on trains. And the more specialized your interests, the less likely you are to find what you want in store. (Live steam? 7/8 scale? British outline? Nuts -- these are my favorites.) 

The sad fact is that both these guys -- who knew their businesses and had sense -- have long since gone out of business. My purchases are mostly off the internet and through people I meet at Diamondhead. 

The good news is that the world includes a lot of fine people. When you connect to them through the internet and otherwise, their is a lot of neat stuff out there. (I also have weaknesses for clockwork trains and toys and old railroad books off eBay.) 

Can I find everything I want or afford everything I want? No, but I have plenty to play with. 

If track is the obstacle, a four foot diameter circle of Aristo is $84 from Charles Ro. Lousy way to run a railroad, but I ran a Ruby and a Sammie on that for a couple of years before I had anything better. You don't have to do it all at once. Back issues of 16 Mil Today include the guys who give up cigarettes and beer, so they could put the money toward this week's (or month's) yard of track. When my local hobby guy went out of business, I bought his display layout track at about half price. (Or try Sunset Valley aluminum, about $9/yard.) 

The best machinist I know says he had to learn how to build steam engines, else he wouldn't have any. 

Try to be patient. Savor what you have. This is a hobby for a lifetime, not just a season. (But if you find one of those seasonal guys, there will be bargains in a few more months.) 

Time to get off the soapbox. Best regards, boil water, have fun, Mike


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, Let yer fingers do the walking and shopping I guess! That is the way I see most business going in the future! Regal


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

This sucks; I liked that store & would drop in every other month or so to pick up small parts & sale items. They will be missed. 

Too bad they couldn't renegotiate their lease, as that strip mall has a couple of vacancies, and now commercial centers are actively bidding for businesses with all kinds of incentives & lower lease rates. A friend of mine is in commercial real estate, and he specializes in "sniping" and "poaching" customers from other commercial properties. 

2010 won't be any kinder to brick-and-mortar businesses. A story just came out today where the federal Secretary of Labor boasted about hiring more than 250 new investigators, and that 2010 will be known as The Year Of The Crackdown On Private Businesses. The fines alone will drive out many marginal businesses across the country, and will have a domino effect in struggling markets such as Las Vegas. 

Las Vegas officials finally conceded that for the first time in many many years, the southern Nevada population actually SHRANK. Unemployment locally continues to rise or remain stagnant (despite the PollyAnnas gloating over short-term employment figures), foreclosure rates are among the highest in the nation, and gaming revenue CONTINUES to decline. The outlook isn't bright for Southern Nevada (DANG, I don't have much longer until retirement either!!! I'm a "tweener"). US Airways is closing their Las Vegas operations, as the airport (McCarran) tripled landing fees for all airlines, and as a result USA will be relocating to Phoenix as a hub instead...which means another 1,000 locals will be unemployed in February. 

However, St Aubins could have leveraged these to consolidate their business in Las Vegas for the very reasons that other members have posted above, as well as either moving again to a cheaper location, or renegotiating their lease. Taxes are MUCH cheaper, and not to mention that their current location is close to the airport & post office, FedEx, UPS hubs for quick painless shipping! I suspect that the current owners don't want to relocate from Illinois as their primary business concern. 

Too bad.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes it's nice to visit a brick-and-mortar store, so you can actually see & handle items you might be interested in purchasing...nothing is worse than Interwebs postings with piss-poor photos, or photos that don't give an accurate depiction of an item you might want to purchase. As well, on the interwebs you have no advice nor personal accounts from others about items (such as fellow customers or store employees).

It's a sign of the times, sure, but St Aubins will be missed. Plus it was cheaper for me to drive there for a heavy item than it was to pay for shipping. Anyone else notice the rise in shipping costs charged by many eBay sellers & online businesses? DANG! OUCH!

Just some random thoughts; it behooves businesses to constantly seek to expand their market share as well as profits....if going solely interwebs-based is what results, then so be it. Not many of us have as much disposable income any more.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By silverstatespecialties on 01 Jan 2010 05:31 PM 
Sometimes it's nice to visit a brick-and-mortar store, so you can actually see & handle items you might be interested in purchasing...nothing is worse than Interwebs postings with piss-poor photos, or photos that don't give an accurate depiction of an item you might want to purchase. As well, on the interwebs you have no advice nor personal accounts from others about items (such as fellow customers or store employees).

It's a sign of the times, sure, but St Aubins will be missed. Plus it was cheaper for me to drive there for a heavy item than it was to pay for shipping. Anyone else notice the rise in shipping costs charged by many eBay sellers & online businesses? DANG! OUCH!

Just some random thoughts; it behooves businesses to constantly seek to expand their market share as well as profits....if going solely interwebs-based is what results, then so be it. Not many of us have as much disposable income any more.





I think you've put your finger on the one serious strength a B & M store has over internet shopping: you can go in and actually see and sometimes handle what you're interested in buying.

Whether one can establish any sort of business relationship is iffy. Internet sellers can (and often are) very chatty and try extra hard to satisfy their customers because the competition is hot, plus they don't want to have to re-inventory a returned item--especially after it has made two trips through the USPS system.

As an ex-ebayer, I can say the price rise has come from three sources: the USPS itself, the use of 'packing companies' by volume sellers, and the uptick in packaging material prices. Packing companiies are a third party which pack and ship orders. The seller uses them rather than do it himself because of a surprisingly big in-house investment in boxes (where stardard USPS boxes won't work), packing tape, and particularly packing materials. Foam and peanuts are priced through the roof. New boxes are priced high and a seller usually has to buy them in bulk. That includes separate bulk purchases for different sized boxes, which then have to be stored until use. Internet selling is very labor-intensive if a seller does his own packing, and isn't selling small items.

Given the average clerk's attitude in an average store, in my experience--I much prefer the internet. And with the minimum-wage laws, hiring people motivated enough to be worth their wages is difficult, because it seems now that a job is thought of as a 'right' rather than a responsiblility.

Les


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Look @ the last issue of Garden Railways ( Feb 2010 ) magazine.. Jon & Val ( GM & CFO ) are retiring from St. Aubins.. Could this be part of the problem?? 

BulletBob


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 01 Jan 2010 06:32 PM 
I think you've put your finger on the one serious strength a B & M store has over internet shopping: you can go in and actually see and sometimes handle what you're interested in buying.

Whether one can establish any sort of business relationship is iffy. Internet sellers can (and often are) very chatty and try extra hard to satisfy their customers because the competition is hot, plus they don't want to have to re-inventory a returned item--especially after it has made two trips through the USPS system.

As an ex-ebayer, I can say the price rise has come from three sources: the USPS itself, the use of 'packing companies' by volume sellers, and the uptick in packaging material prices. Packing companiies are a third party which pack and ship orders. The seller uses them rather than do it himself because of a surprisingly big in-house investment in boxes (where stardard USPS boxes won't work), packing tape, and particularly packing materials. Foam and peanuts are priced through the roof. New boxes are priced high and a seller usually has to buy them in bulk. That includes separate bulk purchases for different sized boxes, which then have to be stored until use. Internet selling is very labor-intensive if a seller does his own packing, and isn't selling small items.

Given the average clerk's attitude in an average store, in my experience--I much prefer the internet. And with the minimum-wage laws, hiring people motivated enough to be worth their wages is difficult, because it seems now that a job is thought of as a 'right' rather than a responsiblility.

Les


Les, you bring up some very relevant points! USPS is awesome for small to medium size boxes (especially with their Flat Rate Shipping feature), but for large, heavy purchases (like an Aristo Mallet loco, for example), then UPS is a much more economical service. But, with UPS, one must pay for their own shipping materials...

As for eBay, I don't mind when a seller charges a fee for handling as well as shipping, as long as it was clearly stated....but what I hate are the unprofessional sellers who charge you $10 to ship a $2 item, and then send it First Class for $2!!!! How about at least sending it Priority Mail for $5.....jackasses!!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Road Foreman on 01 Jan 2010 06:53 PM 
Guys, 

Look @ the last issue of Garden Railways ( Feb 2010 ) magazine.. Jon & Val ( GM & CFO ) are retiring from St. Aubins.. Could this be part of the problem?? 

BulletBob 






Or a harbinger of (more) things to come.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

The thing to keep in mind about the price of track, is that it's basically a one-time expense. Once you have your layout built, you're done. The track lasts almost indefinitely.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Somehow or another Ray, I don't think alot of guy's ever get to where they don't need more track!! I know I dream every night about what I want to do differently on my outdoor layout, and it usually requires more track!! Right now I would like to have about another 200 ft of track! But that will be a long time in the future if ever!! The Regal


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

And while we're at it, before complaining about something being "too expensive" -- Stop to think about whether what you are willing to pay, is anywhere near what it costs to MAKE it... with domestic labor -- so you (or someone like you) might still have a job to pay for it. If it isn't, maybe there's something else wrong? (Yeah, I know, everybody makes too much $$ but you, nice try.) 


Domestic labor?? Aristo track is made in China so how does domestic labor costs come into play?? Aristo is nothing more than a importer of goods. 

I know what I'm willing to pay for stainless steel track and it isn't the $40,500.00 per U.S. ton that Aristo is gouging us for!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 01 Jan 2010 10:25 PM 
The thing to keep in mind about the price of track, is that it's basically a one-time expense. Once you have your layout built, you're done. The track lasts almost indefinitely. 



What? Done? Not this one....

With Chinese plastic you never know how long plastic ties and frogs will last. 

Changes;
Having graduated from point to point On3, my roundy is both boring and convenient!
Yet my mind wanders to a complete make over... the first phase has passed the test... 200# Javalina are stepping over a new 8" raised extension reverse loop. It extends out into their usual route.
Once they stop 'marking' it we'll get along! 

Rarely is my 'first' design the best, but it's a heck of a jumping off point! Now my additions/corrections will be more modest...

John


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 01 Jan 2010 10:25 PM 
The thing to keep in mind about the price of track, is that it's basically a one-time expense. Once you have your layout built, you're done. The track lasts almost indefinitely. 





I had that thought back in 2001. That turned out to be  1000 model track-feet ago.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

The thread about track prices is interesting to me on a couple of levels. 

I have used a lot of 332 brass for temporary layouts over the years. Our first permanent track used ME code 250 AL with Llagas Creek ties [1989]. Our second layout used code 215 NS with LC NG tie strips [1993]. In 1999-2000 it was rebuilt with Sunset valley code 250 NS. 

Most of the discussion here has been focused on code 332 track for G rather than 250 or 215 for 1:32 or 1:20.3, so that is what I will comment on. 

I pulled out my old LGB track boxes and noted that the discount price I was paying for LGB 1060s in 1993 was about $8.79 or $4.40/per foot. Even then, Aristo track was in the $3.00 per foot range. If you consider ordinary inflation for the 16 years and the wildly fluctuating raw metal market, our track prices are NOT outrageous. They are only that way because Aristo, USAT, and Accucraft kept them artificially low for so long. I am sure the profit margin on the track was nothing like it was on locos and rolling stock. At some point the fakery had to stop and the prices adjusted. Now the customers are crying "foul" because the adjustment is happing all at once. It is like the folks in MD and DC who had their electric rates capped for 20 years. When the rate adustment happened all at once [30% or more], people went nuts. 

Ask Kevin S sometime about his Dad's solution to "overpriced" track [along with the fact that he wanted smooth curves of various radii]. He bought aluminum rail and cut his own ties and hand laid the track. Most of it is still in place after 30 years [or more]. 

This hobby [and that is what it is] can be very expensive when the only tool used is a checkbook. MSRPs are set at STUPID levels that have no bearing on reality so that everyone can offer a discount, because "no one pays retail any more, why should you" [Mervis Diamond Importers]. If consumers were willing to accept a fair price [and pay it], then importers and shops could offer a legitimate MSRP that was related to the cost of goods plus are realistic margin to run the business and provide a profit to the shop. BUT the consumer is unwilling to play that game... But wait, there's more, order in the next 20 minutes and we'll double the offer... get two USAT GP-40s for only $299, just pay separate shipping and handling [$375.98]. 

There's more than one born every minute and most want it all for FREE. 

Happy New Year


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

So here's his newest deceit..he posts this graph showing how copper prices has risen so drastically over the past few months and claims that another price increase is in order



















When he should have told everybody the rest of the story..and that being copper prices are lower than they were back in 2008 when he doubled track prices








So what can be the reason for another track price increase other than maybe bailing out his company after loosing a boatload of money when Lloyds of London went bankrupt


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree... and Nickel has been pretty constant in price, but the stainless steel prices have shot up by the same percent. 

Gouge... 

But as it was mentioned on the kool aid site, there is more competition, good... 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

When he should have told everybody the rest of the story..and that being copper prices are lower than they were back in 2008 when he doubled track prices Anyone call him on this on his own site? The result would prove both interesting and instructive (if not predictable). 

Disclaimer: Posted as an MLS participant only, representing my own personal opinion only, and not any official MLS position, opinion, or stance.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 04 Jan 2010 10:23 PM 
Anyone call him on this on his own site? The result would prove both interesting and instructive (if not predictable). 


I think Greg learned what happens when you do that! 

More KoolAid?









-Brian


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

In defense of Lewis....I think he was broke last January....or incredibly stupid. Dunno which. None the less....Aristo track is hardly affordable anymore...and it's killing the hobby.


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

What an excellent response by Mik (30th Dec) - Over here in the UK it seems everyone wants to buy at rock bottom and then complain when their jobs disappear because production has moved to Asia.... We used to have Retail Price Maintenance albeit a long time ago - customers bought on service in those days! 

Best wishes to all for the New Year 
Bob Morgan


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm past my grudge with SA. 
After all, it has been 3 years or so. 
The problem now is 'I despise the loyalty clubby pay up front psychology points thingy'. 
I'm a cash man who votes with his feet. 

No deal, Goodbye 

Andrew


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark Johnson came by our monthly steam-up at Clark's on Saturday. The store closed 29 Dec. Mark thinks they will ship the remaining inventory to Ill.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 02 Jan 2010 09:49 AM 
And while we're at it, before complaining about something being "too expensive" -- Stop to think about whether what you are willing to pay, is anywhere near what it costs to MAKE it... with domestic labor -- so you (or someone like you) might still have a job to pay for it. If it isn't, maybe there's something else wrong? (Yeah, I know, everybody makes too much $$ but you, nice try.) 


Domestic labor?? Aristo track is made in China so how does domestic labor costs come into play?? Aristo is nothing more than a importer of goods. 

I know what I'm willing to pay for stainless steel track and it isn't the $40,500.00 per U.S. ton that Aristo is gouging us for!! 




Chuck,

"How does domestic labor come into play??"

A ship from China is unloaded at a west coast dock, by dockworkers who make big, big wages. Last time I heard, you had to be born into the trade. That's one.

The container train is crewed by (at least) well paid engineers. I don't know if diesels still carry firemen, but the last I heard, another union-wage situation. That's two.
I don't know how much the individuals who set the switches and route the train from remote points make, or if they're organized, but there's another labor cost. Three.

There are misc charges, covered under 'shipping fees' that get the containers set off at appropriate places as the train moves across the country. There are labor costs connected both at trackside, trucking, and above all, organizaton, which is done by people. Fourth source of labor.

The contents of the container are then sub-distributed who knows how many times? This is a fifth source of labor.

The train stuff finally gets to Friendly Joe's Hobby Store. Shipping fees enter in to cover labor, energy costs, investment in equipment on a local scale. Sixth source.

Joe's employee--if he has one--unpacks the stuff while Joe does a mountain of paperwork and organization common to any small business. If he has to do it himself, or his wife does, or his kids do, they have to eat and be clothed. A hidden cost, like many others I've glossed over. They have to charge X to stay in business. They have all the normal expenses everyone else does. He finds he has to raise his prices.

And then someone who is disinclined or unintelligent enough to do the least of the unskilled jobs--let alone the skilled ones--says, "They're all just greedy."

I have sometimes marvelled at the complexity of the commercial society that we live in. I'm continually amazed that it all works as well as it does, since fallible people are the prime movers in all levels. It amazes me that the whole thing doesn't implode.

I am in no way attacking you, Chuck. You apparently run a hobby shop, and I have some slight insight into the costs of doing that. I respect your efforts, and I seriously doubt that you are making anything more than a reasonable living.

Note that I wholly ignored the macro-market forces at play. That's out of my league, except to note that Capitalism is flawed, as are all other economic systems. It seems to be the less flawed, with one serious objection: the means of production and the ability to control macro-market prices to the advantage of The Few seems to have matured in the capitalist system. This happened in the days of the Robber Barons, and the Gov't struck back. Today, the gov't is part of the problem, when they propose to micromanage people's personal lives. 

I think it's far more helpful to try to understand what is happening, and why. From what I've concluded, live simply and keep your wants within your means. (Like, well duh!)

As someone else's father has done, I've concluded the brass track is priced higher than I'm willing to pay, and am working on an alternative. For one thing, it's less stressful than sitting around feeling taken advantage of by 'evil sellers'.

But yes, there're lots of labor costs involved in foreign trade.

Les


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not going to repost my comments from Dec 30. I AM going to put another shot across the bows of those who still don't quite get it. Yes, I said DOMESTIC labor for a reason.

1. The growth in popularity of the 'Wal-Mart' attitude of low price is everything is killing our economy. Yes, saving money IS good, but shouldn't be the ONLY consideration. Cheap crap is cheap crap... Levi's jeans from Wally Wurld don't wear as well or as long as the same ones from JC Penney's, odd that. Isn't it?


2. People b#tch and moan about high prices, and then b#tch and moan because everything is outsourced to China and domestic unemployment is 10% or more... pick ONE, you just can't have it both ways. Did you know that there are STILL people in Homestead, Pa who proudly say they (the union) showed US Steel that they "couldn't be pushed around"?.... US Steel closed the plant, laid everybody off, and went elsewhere, so now there are a few crap minimum wage service jobs instead of thousands of union manufacturing ones... Some "showed", ain't it?

3. Make it here.More domestic jobs = more people with money to spend on your product, right? So what if Lewey Baby (and everybody else) makes it there. You're better than him, you said so. Right?


4. Companies are failing at a rate not seen since the beginning of the depression. Go ahead, have a temper tantrum and boycott them, and buy from WHOM after they fail?... Oh yeah, 'somebody' will eventually take their place.... IF they figure they can make some money at it. NOBODY goes into business to LOSE money 'because it's the right thing to do' except the government, and they generally make a hash of it. 



When your turn comes and somebody (or a LOT of somebodies) takes up 3 days of your time asking questions, then goes elsewhere to buy to save $3, MAYBE you'll understand. Or maybe you won't. If you've never run your own business, then you really don't know jack. There are a LOT of people out there anymore that you could sell a $100 bill to for $50 and they'd gripe because it was wrinkled or had a smudge on it.... The hobby sector has never been a cash cow -- except maybe in the ATV biz. 


If you don't want it at the offered price, then don't buy it, but kwitcherbellakin unless you have a REAL solution to offer. Otherwise you just sound like a spoilt toddler.


Rant mode off


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Well put. I avoid Walmart like the plague, their stuff is of poor quality. Problem is, almost all the stores around here are now closed because of them, so their prices aren't even all that cheap, since they drove the competition out of business.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Wish this could have been me at Wally Weird!!! Had to plod along everyday just thinking about being like that! Finally wised up after 7 months of agony, and finally quit em!! Went un-employed for 10months after that decision, but never looked back and NO help either from the Guberment!! I took my advice, and "fall forwards always". Regal 

p.s. Walter always has some good tips and advice!!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I find myself agreeing with Les 100% on this one. I think he's bang on. 

And if Aristo was opportunisitic and got bit in the a$$ because of it, who cares? Don't buy their crap, plain and simple. Nick, I'm not sure how you can say the price of track is the major reason people aren't getting into the hobby. I recently bought two tubes of 10' LGB flex rail and ties and the price per foot was little more than I paid for track ten years ago. As far as I've seen, the price of brass rail has come way down with the likes of AML on the market. If people want in the hobby, they'll start in the hobby. It's all about priorities. My guess is that those same people who are bitching about the price of rail probably bought a flat screen TV, ipod and iphone within the last couple of years...priorities.... 

Keith


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Keith, 
Track has gone up 4 times since i bought mine and thats only 4 and half years ago. i personally would never pay LGB prices cause i always thought they were and still are way over priced for what you get, Thats just me and to each their own. Aristo had a good thing going before they got greedy in my opionion and doubled there track prices and more after LGB went out.... Most people i talk to will not pay almost 10.00 ft or so for track period.... Now while it seems you and myself can afford it, if you started again would you still do it ?
I dont think i would. the one thing that made me switch from o scale 2 rail to G was the price point was almost the same, No brainer







I dont beleive anything that comes out of Aristo mouth any more because they have been caught so many time telling people what they want to hear and not what the facts are.... Plus they think there better than everyone else, in my opionion of course..... when in fact , New Bright makes a better train than they do....in my opionion ... Anyway if you cant keep track prices in check you Will loose in the short and long term...
Also i dont buy the line that there track sales were up last year.........Sorry i dont beleive them.
Nick 

Also to make it clear i dont hold anything against anyone who runs LGB or Aristo or anything else, As i have said before to each there own. My comments are from MY experiances with certian companys, and while im not alone in my opionions i seem to be one of the few that will point out blaytent short comings of a certain company
People seem to be affraid to speak their minds now a days, I'M NOT ONE OF THEM..... And i could really care less what people think of me that support that company????? . I have plenty of Forum Buddys that arnt driven by a the need to be talked to by a president of a company so they can feal special!!!!!!! If you tell me mistruths time and time again and i buy your product and it doesnt do what you said it would, well then Games on..............also nasty emails only pisses me off more?????????????? that comment was for the NASTY grammer as we call him.
Final note if you tell the truth and dont try to deceive your customers the hobby will be better off and you as well......... And i do understand that they are here to make money but dont deceive and rip us off after the fact......


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

It really comes down to a matter of priorities, doesn't it ? To me this is a _serious_ hobby that I have (fortunately) managed to merge into my (very) small business operation. I don't buy new snow machines (or used ones for that matter), new vehicles, or even many new clothes. Instead I concentrate on finishing an ever-expanding large-scale model railroad. At this point I figure I am about 70-80 per cent done adding track. Irregardless of price, I will continue to do so until I am satisfied that I have completed the entire project. I assume most of you view this hobby in a similar way: you are _seriously_ in it for the duration, which means if you have to buy more track or other expensive items, you will find a way to do so. 


I don't like the prices of track anymore than anyone else.  I have to seriously consider just how much track I am prepared to order at the beginning of each summer season.  That time is once again coming up quickly. But I also don't like the prices I have to pay lately for heating oil, electricity, wholesale booze, and the various licenses I am required to purchase in order to stay in business. I set my priorities and quietly pay the price. Track remains on my list right behind wholesale beer, wine, & liquor for my bar.  I might add that converting to remote battery control on all my engines definitely cuts down on the expense of track. I only order Llagas aluminum track exclusively. It works out very well for me.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, you're preaching to the converted when it comes to the Kool-Aid camp...I'm surprised there isn't a black limo following me around after all the posts I've made over the years being critical of them and their BS!  
You're right in that the LGB track has always been a little higher priced than the rest, but since I do metre gauge Swiss I still like their ties and long rails the best. Would I do it the same way again? Probably...LGB has proven itself to me over the years and that's why I chose to go that way again recently for my expansion...same applies to their locos--long term they are a good value. I want trains I can pass on to my Grandchildren, not a bunch of worn out crap that I spend all my time fixing. 
Additionally, out of principle I've chosen to support the B&M stores and am willing to pay a reasonable premium to do so--I'm not a fan of mail order or big box stores, so when one goes down it doesn't break my heart. I just hope they don't wipe out the small guys first. 

Keith


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Keith, 
Agreed.......







I must amit i do own 2 LGB gennys and 10 passengers cars and they do run well..


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 05 Jan 2010 10:31 AM 
The hobby sector has never been a cash cow -- except maybe in the ATV biz. 


If you don't want it at the offered price, then don't buy it, but kwitcherbellakin unless you have a REAL solution to offer. Otherwise you just sound like a spoilt toddler.


Rant mode off 










Exactly, this is a hobby. Hobby Dollars (Euros, Pounds, Pesos, Yen, etc.) are the very last after food, shelter, tuition, tithes, taxes, etc. Last time I checked, most any adult hobby is not cheap or getting cheaper. And it should be done as a hobby.

For example, I just bought Hemming's special collector issue for Packard cars, one of my many interests in life. Unless you have some uber rare coach built Packard, then they are not really "valuable" in the sense of cash terms. And any GOOD restoration efforts will far out-cost the end value of the car (take a look at 22nd series sedans as a good example).

So then, is the $2000 1948 Packard Standard 8 with a stuck valve, fading paint, no brakes, rat infested inteior and rotted away rockers really "cheaper" than a turn-key $9,000 version?

So is it a financial gain to do it, or love of the car? People buy and enjoy both. Now....

....along the same lines.....

A set of tires for the same Packard from Coker is going to set one back $120 to $350 each (bias blackwall to whitewall to correct for the period Michelin). 

The tires at $500-1300 are required for the car, just as track is for us.

Another way to look at it....

I never understood someone that is happy to plop down $500 for a loco, but $500 for the track for it is just out of place? 

BTW, street price on Lionel 0-31 tubular track is over $3 a foot now too, from what a friend and I bought over the weekend. And (stamped metal made in China now) switches are equal in price to the R2 TrainLine45 (brass, made in Germany) switches from Axel at Train Li.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Nick 

Most people i talk to will not pay almost 10.00 ft WHAT???? I bought NEW LGB track for someone else from Star Hobby in Annapolis, MD in Augut and paid [on average] $ 6.75 per foot. That is a long way from $10. The 1061s were more than the 1000s, and all the small track IS dispropotionately expensive on a cost per linear unit, but that has always been true. 

Why don't you "cost conscious" guys buy some of that plastic track Bill Frank was showing around and coat the rails with electrically conductive paint.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Wait until China is forced to float their currency. 
Then you will see prices for Chinese made goods really skyrocket. 
Then perhaps some of the jobs lost to our Western Democracies will start to come back home.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Jan 2010 04:29 PM 
Nick 

Most people i talk to will not pay almost 10.00 ft WHAT???? I bought NEW LGB track for someone else from Star Hobby in Annapolis, MD in Augut and paid [on average] $ 6.75 per foot. That is a long way from $10. The 1061s were more than the 1000s, and all the small track IS dispropotionately expensive on a cost per linear unit, but that has always been true. 

Why don't you "cost conscious" guys buy some of that plastic track Bill Frank was showing around and coat the rails with electrically conductive paint. 



Jim i did buy a 1000 ft of plastic for 100.00 lucky me, i can afford the more expensive track but if the newbie cant then i cant get the newer stuff i want ????????????


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05 Jan 2010 05:11 PM 
Wait until China is forced to float their currency. 
Then you will see prices for Chinese made goods really skyrocket. 
Then perhaps some of the jobs lost to our Western Democracies will start to come back home. 

This is the 1st post youve made that makes sence to me................ good for you starting to come around to American thinkin???????????


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, 
No offence, but I wish I could return the compliment about making sense.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Interesting...........


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I was going to leave this alone, but Nick's comment of "If you had to start over at these prices, would you?" Made me stop and think, The answer is an emphatic, "YES!" 

Why? I used to do N scale... $3 freight cars were nice, but I can't even SEE the stuff very well anymore, let alone work on it. 

And here I am, living on what many people waste on Starbucks or ciggies each month.... As Ron says, "It's a matter of priorities." It's also a matter of mind set. The manager at work was telling me that she was having trouble making ends meet since her husband was laid off at the mines and was "only getting $600 a week" in unemployment. Mmmm'kay, bit of a disconnect there. Especially when you PAY minimum wage, part time, with no bennies and expect other people to live on it. 

Yep, she's crying broke, because he's now only bringing home 3 times what I live on (AND still manage to play trains). She still has her full paycheck, drives a Jag, AND has an Acura, owns a really nice house, goes off to SoCal for two weeks every winter... So now she might have to settle for only one week this year, or trade the Acura for a Toyota. That's really only ONE step from living in a tent under a bridge..... right? 

Back to trains. Yes, this hobby CAN be quite expensive, IF you use your checkbook instead of your head and hands. IF you insist on having a 'Jag AND an Acura'. IF you insist on trying to have whatever you see in the magazines and want it ALL, NOW!!!! But it really doesn't HAVE to be. 

I see Marty's layout, or ToCs, or Greg's, and think they're quite lovely, but I don't waste any energy on envy. Sure, I'd like to play with their toys sometime. But I just don't have a burning need to OWN that many trains. I already HAVE more than I have space for.... all bought second or third hand, or hand built from bits of junk other people wanted rid of. It took me about 15 years to accumulate my little empire by trading up, watching and waiting for bargains, scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and fixing other people's broken stuff. 

R-1 is dirt cheap 'used' (quite often brand new, just 2nd hand) because so many of you turn your noses up at it. You know what? It works just FINE! IF you're willing to run a dinky on the local peddlar, instead of 'needing' a Big Boy with 900 cars.... If you NEED to have an Escalade, then you really shouldn't cry about the cost of feeding it..... If you NEEDED a huge mainline monster, then you also volunteered to pay for all those wide curves and such. It's NOT Lewis Polk's fault, it was your CHOICE. 

Some of you also need to gain a reasonable level of expectation. A friend of mine deals with muscle cars. He's fond of saying, "Everybody wants a mint Hemi 'Cuda with air for the price of a clapped-out slant 6 Duster anymore" He's right. We often WANT everything, but aren't actually willing to PAY for it.--- 

When I was selling model steam engines I CONSTANTLY heard, "That's too much, they 'used to be', $XX!!!"... yeah, back in 1968! In 1968 a brand new Roadrunner was less than $3 grand too. ($2889, More beep for the buck!) But how much was your paycheck? Now they brag if a new car is less than $20K, and that old '68 Roadrunner, in nice shape, brings about $30K. If you only want to pay wholesale for stuff, then get a tax number.... And maybe save your nickels. The minimum purchases and 'initial stocking' orders and freight just MIGHT set you back a little more than buying what you actually needed at retail.... but I guess you can always give the rest away (or sell it at cost) to the other guys who like calling Lewis & company a chiseler. 

And then there's Chuck with his price of track "per ton". It might be accurate, but is totally beside the point..... unless you're buying it by the ton. How much for a truckload of ciggies? A tank car load of Starbucks latte? A hogshead of single malt? It doesn't matter how much a gross of Jags costs, does it? You want shock value number, price a metric ton of filet mignon. But it would be just as meaningless. If there was money to be made in producing track and undercutting Aristo's 'price gouging', someone would be doing it. How about it Chuck old boy? When do YOU start production?

I'm going to go build something now. You all have fun sharpening your pitchforks and preparing your torches, but don't be surprised if the monster in the old windmill turns out to be yourself


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

I am one of the newbie G-Scalers you all seem to refer to.
I have been on this sight for about a year and learned a great deal but aside from two loops around the front yard at Christmas, I have not yet gotten started on my permanent layout. Heck I am still completely confused on DCC, DCS, QSI, AIRWIRE and so on… But I will say this.
It is posts like this that make me regret spending money to be a 1st class member. 

Reading this is like being on a grade school playground. All the clicks, bickering and backhanded insults. It all makes me want to go back to just stumbling along and figuring it out by trial and error.
This thread is like a train wreck, you just can’t look away… and it keeps getting worse. 

That being said: The cost of track is not the deterrent most of you think it is to newbies. Just like anything else, if you are serious about it you will find the time and the money. I am much more deterred by the overwhelming options and lack of understanding of what is what and what does what and what will work with what than the cost. There are so many options and so many acronyms that I will start reading a post and be lost by the second reply. So the lack of knowing where to start, or what to do next is more a deterrent than the track price.
Lack of personal knowledge is why I joined this site, to learn from all of you. However after reading all of this - all I know how to do is complain and insult people that are here to help. 

Track price is what it is? Is it the same price it was1, 3, 5 years ago, probably not but neither is a new car, or a house or a loaf of bread. As a kid I remember collecting bottles and cans and raking leaves and shoveling snow to get some extra $ to buy things that I wanted. It was that hard work and not being able to just go buy what I wanted when I wanted it that made me value what I had. Do none of you remember going to sleep dreaming of that BB Gun or baseball glove or Train set?
So I have to save a bit more and it takes a bit longer… I can buy a set right now for $300 that has everything I need out of the box. That will get anyone started and won’t take that long to save for. 


The empire in the back yard may need to be a dream for awhile and a goal but that is what makes it a hobby and keeps it fun for me. Building it in my dreams and waiting for that day when I have saved enough to buy that Big Boy, or DCC or DCS or whatever it is I need to control it remotely. 


So track is $6 a foot, don’t eat out 2 times a month and you can by two 5’ pieces. The golden spike in Utah was not driven because people complained about the cost of steel, it was driven because people dared to dream and put down one rail at a time. If they can put down 3K miles of rail one at a time to build an empire… you can save your pennies and put down one 5’ stick at a time to build yours. 
But I am a newbie… what do I know.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05 Jan 2010 05:11 PM 
Wait until China is forced to float their currency. 
Then you will see prices for Chinese made goods really skyrocket. 
Then perhaps some of the jobs lost to our Western Democracies will start to come back home. 




Tony,

Could you elaborate just a little on what factors might force China to float their currency? I'm no economist beyond the back-pocket level, and I can't see or determine any reason from reading the blogs, Druge Report, etc. I'm always looking to learn.

As for track and train manufacture, last night on Fox it was reported that Chinese labor is 1/10 that of American, by a CEO of the new solar technology, who is opening a factory in China. (That's why he made the new, because the Gov't's position is that 'Green Jobs' will make America prosperous again. By outsourcing to China for labor?

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 06 Jan 2010 08:41 AM 

"All the clicks,"


Well, I've been here for more than a year and it finally dawned on me that'cliques' really do exist here. You picked up right off; you're sharp. 

As far as being confused over the acronyms, the board moderators sometimes make a stab at reminding the denizens that clearness is needed for noobs.

Might I suggest you pick a particular topic and 'beat it to death' until you get it? All the while, read on posts that interest you and ASK questions. Sometimes you'll get called down for 'hijacking' a thread, but shrug it off. It's your $25, after all.

It's a cold, hard winter. Might have something to do with it.

Les

Contented clique of one


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## audi84 (Jan 13, 2008)

Idraw4U

Very well said, what is one of the ols sayings? that's the way the cookie crumbles......



audi84.....Noel 1


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 06 Jan 2010 08:41 AM 


I am one of the newbie G-Scalers you all seem to refer to.
I have been on this sight for about a year and learned a great deal but aside from two loops around the front yard at Christmas, I have not yet gotten started on my permanent layout. Heck I am still completely confused on DCC, DCS, QSI, AIRWIRE and so on… But I will say this.
It is posts like this that make me regret spending money to be a 1st class member. 

Reading this is like being on a grade school playground. All the clicks, bickering and backhanded insults. It all makes me want to go back to just stumbling along and figuring it out by trial and error.
This thread is like a train wreck, you just can’t look away… and it keeps getting worse. 

That being said: The cost of track is not the deterrent most of you think it is to newbies. Just like anything else, if you are serious about it you will find the time and the money. I am much more deterred by the overwhelming options and lack of understanding of what is what and what does what and what will work with what than the cost. There are so many options and so many acronyms that I will start reading a post and be lost by the second reply. So the lack of knowing where to start, or what to do next is more a deterrent than the track price.
Lack of personal knowledge is why I joined this site, to learn from all of you. However after reading all of this - all I know how to do is complain and insult people that are here to help. 

Track price is what it is? Is it the same price it was1, 3, 5 years ago, probably not but neither is a new car, or a house or a loaf of bread. As a kid I remember collecting bottles and cans and raking leaves and shoveling snow to get some extra $ to buy things that I wanted. It was that hard work and not being able to just go buy what I wanted when I wanted it that made me value what I had. Do none of you remember going to sleep dreaming of that BB Gun or baseball glove or Train set?
So I have to save a bit more and it takes a bit longer… I can buy a set right now for $300 that has everything I need out of the box. That will get anyone started and won’t take that long to save for. 


The empire in the back yard may need to be a dream for awhile and a goal but that is what makes it a hobby and keeps it fun for me. Building it in my dreams and waiting for that day when I have saved enough to buy that Big Boy, or DCC or DCS or whatever it is I need to control it remotely. 


So track is $6 a foot, don’t eat out 2 times a month and you can by two 5’ pieces. The golden spike in Utah was not driven because people complained about the cost of steel, it was driven because people dared to dream and put down one rail at a time. If they can put down 3K miles of rail one at a time to build an empire… you can save your pennies and put down one 5’ stick at a time to build yours. 
But I am a newbie… what do I know. 


















Ah! A man after my own heart!







But I gotta warn you... pointing out the obvious won't change anything!









Quite frankly, you ARE stuck "stumbling along and figuring it out by trial and error", but at least by reading here you will be better prepared to recognize the error when it occurs and that will make it easier to plot the next trial!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06 Jan 2010 08:01 AM 
I was going to leave this alone, but Nick's comment of "If you had to start over at these prices, would you?" Made me stop and think, The answer is an emphatic, "YES!" 

Why? I used to do N scale... $3 freight cars were nice, but I can't even SEE the stuff very well anymore, let alone work on it. 

And here I am, living on what many people waste on Starbucks or ciggies each month.... As Ron says, "It's a matter of priorities." It's also a matter of mind set. The manager at work was telling me that she was having trouble making ends meet since her husband was laid off at the mines and was "only getting $600 a week" in unemployment. Mmmm'kay, bit of a disconnect there. Especially when you PAY minimum wage, part time, with no bennies and expect other people to live on it. 

Yep, she's crying broke, because he's now only bringing home 3 times what I live on (AND still manage to play trains). She still has her full paycheck, drives a Jag, AND has an Acura, owns a really nice house, goes off to SoCal for two weeks every winter... So now she might have to settle for only one week this year, or trade the Acura for a Toyota. That's really only ONE step from living in a tent under a bridge..... right? 

Back to trains. Yes, this hobby CAN be quite expensive, IF you use your checkbook instead of your head and hands. IF you insist on having a 'Jag AND an Acura'. IF you insist on trying to have whatever you see in the magazines and want it ALL, NOW!!!! But it really doesn't HAVE to be. 

I see Marty's layout, or ToCs, or Greg's, and think they're quite lovely, but I don't waste any energy on envy. Sure, I'd like to play with their toys sometime. But I just don't have a burning need to OWN that many trains. I already HAVE more than I have space for.... all bought second or third hand, or hand built from bits of junk other people wanted rid of. It took me about 15 years to accumulate my little empire by trading up, watching and waiting for bargains, scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and fixing other people's broken stuff. 


R-1 is dirt cheap 'used' (quite often brand new, just 2nd hand) because so many of you turn your noses up at it. You know what? It works just FINE! IF you're willing to run a dinky on the local peddlar, instead of 'needing' a Big Boy with 900 cars.... If you NEED to have an Escalade, then you really shouldn't cry about the cost of feeding it..... If you NEEDED a huge mainline monster, then you also volunteered to pay for all those wide curves and such. It's NOT Lewis Polk's fault, it was your CHOICE. 

Some of you also need to gain a reasonable level of expectation. A friend of mine deals with muscle cars. He's fond of saying, "Everybody wants a mint Hemi 'Cuda with air for the price of a clapped-out slant 6 Duster anymore" He's right. We often WANT everything, but aren't actually willing to PAY for it.--- 

When I was selling model steam engines I CONSTANTLY heard, "That's too much, they 'used to be', $XX!!!"... yeah, back in 1968! In 1968 a brand new Roadrunner was less than $3 grand too. ($2889, More beep for the buck!) But how much was your paycheck? Now they brag if a new car is less than $20K, and that old '68 Roadrunner, in nice shape, brings about $30K. If you only want to pay wholesale for stuff, then get a tax number.... And maybe save your nickels. The minimum purchases and 'initial stocking' orders and freight just MIGHT set you back a little more than buying what you actually needed at retail.... but I guess you can always give the rest away (or sell it at cost) to the other guys who like calling Lewis & company a chiseler. 

And then there's Chuck with his price of track "per ton". It might be accurate, but is totally beside the point..... unless you're buying it by the ton. How much for a truckload of ciggies? A tank car load of Starbucks latte? A hogshead of single malt? It doesn't matter how much a gross of Jags costs, does it? You want shock value number, price a metric ton of filet mignon. But it would be just as meaningless. If there was money to be made in producing track and undercutting Aristo's 'price gouging', someone would be doing it. How about it Chuck old boy? When do YOU start production?

I'm going to go build something now. You all have fun sharpening your pitchforks and preparing your torches, but don't be surprised if the monster in the old windmill turns out to be yourself 


Mik,
You are entitled to your opionion as am i so. no pitch forks needed, i guess we will have to wait it out and see what happens? i still see plenty of people almost every weekend and the # reason they dont jump in is track prices.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05 Jan 2010 05:11 PM 
Wait until China is forced to float their currency.  
....
Then perhaps some of the jobs lost to our Western Democracies will start to come back home. 
Nah, think of all those other -istans, banana republics, and African nations with folks herding sheep and living in mud and grass huts that we can exploit (in the name of progress!) into making our cheap widgets, for slave wages, first. You and I won't live to see manufacturing come back without a total economic collapse or a world war.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

When I started in 2006 with my first loop of track which was 120 feet of Stainless Steel track at about $3.25 per foot for a total of $390.00. Now today at $6.75 a foot it would cost me an additional $420.00. Lets see, I go out with the boys from work every Wed after work and have some good single malt scotch and some wings and steam clams etc. for about $40.00. Now if I give that up for 11 weeks I can cover that extra cost and use that Wednsday evening to lay my new track. If you really want to be in this hobby you can juggle your priorties. I think people use the track price issue as an excuse. If you gave them the track for free they would still moan about the effort it will take to install it. Just my opinion and I have been wrong before...........Jim

PS.....Aristo's next arrival shiipment of 01/10/2010 is almost all track so some body is buy track. And I remember a track shipment back in Dec.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 06 Jan 2010 08:45 AM 
Posted By TonyWalsham on 05 Jan 2010 05:11 PM 
Wait until China is forced to float their currency. 
Then you will see prices for Chinese made goods really skyrocket. 
Then perhaps some of the jobs lost to our Western Democracies will start to come back home. 




Tony,

Could you elaborate just a little on what factors might force China to float their currency? I'm no economist beyond the back-pocket level, and I can't see or determine any reason from reading the blogs, Druge Report, etc. I'm always looking to learn.

As for track and train manufacture, last night on Fox it was reported that Chinese labor is 1/10 that of American, by a CEO of the new solar technology, who is opening a factory in China. (That's why he made the new, because the Gov't's position is that 'Green Jobs' will make America prosperous again. By outsourcing to China for labor?

Les

Tariffs for one. Lots of them. That forces countries to re-evaluate the value of their currency...usually. The claim being offered is that the Chinese currency is undervalued relative to foreign currency. That means that folks buying a country's exports get a better deal in terms of what it costs to buy that item. From the perspective of the exporting country, higher sales directly relate to higher employment. Higher employment means more currency inside THEIR system which encourages people to buy more...even if the amount they're being paid is only 1/10th of what they'd get in another country. It's all relative inside a country.

However, it's NOT relative for the countries IMPORTING goods from a country that intentionally depresses the value of their currency. In today's world economy, it invariably leads to higher unemployment inside the IMPORTING country...because goods made inside the country cost more to make and sell...meaning they don't compete as well...meaning reduced production...leading to layoffs. Making that worse is that today's world economy makes it much easier for a company to invest in developing a new product (e.g. solar panels) in another country where labor costs are lower. That's because the banks in the US that loan the money, today more than ever, ONLY look at the bottom line for THEM. No longer do we really have a system where local banks loan money to improve the lot of the local people who put money into that bank.


Making that worse, the Federal Reserve Banks now can borrow money from the FED for less than 0.5%. That's why the interest you earn on your savings account is zip these days. Those banks and their affiliated banks do NOT have to borrow the money from their depositors. They don't have to entice depositors to put money in their bank because they're offering higher interest rates. All they have to do is have sufficient deposits to qualify for the FED loans. Given that, and given that all they are concerned about is THEIR bottom line, it makes it far easier for them to loan money to a local company to develop a product OUTSIDE the US. They don't care about helping to create jobs in this country...other than to have enough deposits so that they qualify for the load to begin with.

The days of the local bank loaning the lumber company the money for a new sawmill, so that more wood can be produced locally to build more houses so that more people move into an area and create new jobs and more employment so that more money is spent in the local economy...from which the banks get a small percentage as it passes through them...are pretty much gone.


In the PRCs case, the government there is working hard to grow employment inside their country so that their people can live better lives...and it's really working. On the other hand, it's certainly taking jobs away from more developed nations as companies switch their production to places where labor costs are lower. They've done this by fixing the value of their currency to the US currency. That creates a stable exchange rate which is good for business because it removes a HUGE obstacle when trying to finance a loan...that being changes in the exchange rate. If they were to float the Yuan, they'd have more trouble with unemployment whenever the Yuan was devalued in the world market...and they'd see less investment money flowing INTO the PRC as bankers started to require folks that apply for loans to take potential exchange rate loses into their predictions. That would lead to fewer loans being approved. That's a double whammy.


It's always wise to remember that folks that control money in today's economies do NOT really have an allegiance to a country. It's a world economy now...and fat cats will be fat cats...and we call em bankers.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks, Mike. I rarely think of tarriffs.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike. 

Might I also add: 
What a lot of people do not take into consideration is that when the jobs are exported so is the pollution they normally created. Part of the reason why China has a such a big pollution problem. 
That and the fact that part of the reason they can be so competitively priced is because of the lack of serious controls over the said pollution they are creating. 

Given that the money the USA borrowed to finance their deficits (caused in part by two never ending wars) is largely supplied by China from the savings of their citizens, one would tend to think the USA is unlikely to bite the hand that is feeding it. Even though the powers that be in the USA know that the Chinese Yuan MUST be floated soon to even up the imbalance in trade. 
This situation has been caused by the insatiable desire of the West to buy at ever cheapening prices by exploiting the lowest labor cost countries to fulfill those desires. 

Mike is absolutely correct when he describes the role of International Banks. They think only of their bottom line. 
What can be done? That depends on how much the USA, and other Western borrowers, need the Chinese savings to finance their deficits. 
Now the ball has started rolling (See new tariffs on Chinese made tyres exported to the USA) I am willing to bet that ball will inexorably gather more moss until the Chinese are brought into line. 
When will that happen? 
My prediction is sooner rather than later.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06 Jan 2010 01:57 PM 
Thanks Mike. 

Might I also add: 
What a lot of people do not take into consideration is that when the jobs are exported so is the pollution they normally created. Part of the reason why China has a such a big pollution problem. 
That and the fact that part of the reason they can be so competitively priced is because of the lack of serious controls over the said pollution they are creating. 

Given that the money the USA borrowed to finance their deficits (caused in part by two never ending wars) is largely supplied by China from the savings of their citizens, one would tend to think the USA is unlikely to bite the hand that is feeding it. Even though the powers that be in the USA know that the Chinese Yuan MUST be floated soon to even up the imbalance in trade. 
This situation has been caused by the insatiable desire of the West to buy at ever cheapening prices by exploiting the lowest labor cost countries to fulfill those desires. 

Mike is absolutely correct when he describes the role of International Banks. They think only of their bottom line. 
What can be done? That depends on how much the USA, and other Western borrowers, need the Chinese savings to finance their deficits. 
Now the ball has started rolling (See new tariffs on Chinese made tyres exported to the USA) I am willing to bet that ball will inexorably gather more moss until the Chinese are brought into line. 
When will that happen? 
My prediction is sooner rather than later. 

Yes, we American capitalist pigs are such terrible people. We ALL ought to be ashamed of ourselves for creating the free-market mechanism on a national scale that became international and that brought the world into the 21st Century and probably saved countless millions from mass starvation and otherwise gave them hope for a better life. But I digress from trains here.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06 Jan 2010 01:57 PM 

...Given that the money the USA borrowed to finance their deficits (caused in part by two never ending wars) is largely supplied by China from the savings of their citizens, one would tend to think the USA is unlikely to bite the hand that is feeding it. ...This situation has been caused by the insatiable desire of the West to buy at ever cheapening prices by exploiting the lowest labor cost countries to fulfill those desires. 

...My prediction is sooner rather than later. 
Oh yeah....forgot that part. Now that the citizens of the PRC are making money...even though it's at a rate 1/10th that of the US...it means they've got more money in their bank. That allows THEIR bankers to invest that money in equity that has a good return. Since the PRC is a socialist state, those banks are owned by the government...and that government is doing two things to further their economic goals. Remember, it's US DOLLARS that are flowing INTO the country...so there's a real pile of them somewhere. And remember, the Yuan's value is tied to the US dollar.

That means, the banks in China can buy US DOLLARS with the deposited Yuans at a stable price...and they do. Why, well it's because of the two things China is permitting.

The first is that they allow the Chinese companies to buy US equity...property, businesses, banks, etc with those dollars. These acquisitions are made by private corporations in the PRC...not the government. They come to the table offering to pay US DOLLARS for property in the US...and elsewhere. Now, we have a fire sale going on in the US now because of the recession...and more and more of the businesses are being bought by the PRC companies. That's how you get Hummer being owned by a PRC company...or the ex-US Naval Station in Long Beach being bought by COSCO...the PRCs leading container shipping company.

The second way is something the PRC owned national banks do....they buy US Treasury Notes and US Treasure Bonds with the "excess" US DOLLARS they have. This is the debt part that Tony was referring to. The US Treasury sells Notes and Bonds to finance the deficits the US government is running. Anyone can buy these securities as long as they have US DOLLARS to buy them. They currently pay 4.25%...and since they're owned by the PRC government, and unlike citizens or corporations owning them, there's no income tax paid on the interest that the PRC earns on the US securities it owns.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Talk about things that are not good... Have you seen oil and gas prices.? highest they have been in over a year, Setting new records soon I guess. Economic recovery ??? not in this country any time soon.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks, Tony & Mike,

There isn't a good solution in sight, so far as I can see. The only thing I can think of that might stop the 'rolling stone' that is China--not exactly what you said but a good metaphor-- is the famous Dutch Tulip Bulb bubble a long time ago. Eighteenth century? Someone has opined a war and depression would end it, but I tend to think not; unlike the WW1 thinking on the interdependability of nations (a myth at that time) we've now got a conglomerate of corporations that actually are rich and powerful and concentrated enough not to make that mistake a third time. Anyway, who's going to fight it? What nation still has the ability to actually enforce a draft? Besides China, and for whatever reason, they've never shown a big inclination to go a-conquering. (Not counting the Khans, and I'm not sure one could call them 'Chinese'.) My point is that Nationalism is dead. The ideals that made my father and uncles go halfway around the world and crush another country are no longer operable on the scale needed.

Just a few thoughts. And, brass track is too expensive for me. Coming soon-(er or later) my version of a strap-iron switch.

And one other thought: not being an engineer with vast mathematical powers, I wondered idly the other day why no one has hit on soldering a thin copper cap on the brass rail to raise the conductivity? Probably not worth the effort.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron, I was not commenting on the political or economic system of the USA. 

I was pointing out the facts of the situation. 
1. The USA, and the rest of our Western Democracies, need the Chinese Yuan to float. If they don't, China will own the World. 
2. The USA is beholden to China, as China has been financing the USA deficit. 

You can draw your own conclusions as to whether or not the USA will do what they should do to bring China back into line.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ahhh, but..... 

You make a cel phone in the US. It will cost the customer $500. No one will buy it. 

You make a cel phone in China. It will cost the importer $25. You sell it for $100, and many customers buy them. 

So, where does that $75 stay? With Sprint, AT&T...Stateside? In many cases, yes, with the odd off shore proider (T-Mobile being part of Deutsche Telekom AG). 

There can be money made form off shore manufacturing in cases like this.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Mike's very good explanations left one underlying problem unmentioned. 
since the international use of electronic money the amount of "existing" debts and credits are no longer related to any real production. 
the industrialized western countries entered in a state of deindustrialization. 
new jobs created are just services, not productive. 
that creates the crazy situation of "rich" nations floating on oceans of electronic money, but without exported products. 
the US and europe have to create more and more money to cover up the fact, that they import much more real worth, than they export. 
they have to do that to evade consume to collapse. 
and producing countries like china can not stop to accept the increasingly worthless currencies of the west without collapsing production. 

in short, with every dollar, the fed has to create, the price of track from china goes up a fraction of a cent. 
and everybody should be glad, as long as this continues. 
when it finally blows up, the great depression will look like "good old times". 

------------ 

in part this thread comes to a point, similar to that one, where i left the forum for some time. 
cheque-book modellers versus sticks and scrap modellers. 

well, everybody knows, that i am on the twigs and sticks side of the hobby. 

Mik, those, who still have enough money, simply won't understand your point of view. (yet) 

Nick, i would like to counsel you, to buy as much track as you will need, while you still can. those nice black locos under your tree woun't look nice on home-made track.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06 Jan 2010 03:33 PM 
Ron, I was not commenting on the political or economic system of the USA. 

I was pointing out the facts of the situation. 
1. The USA, and the rest of our Western Democracies, need the Chinese Yuan to float. If they don't, China will own the World. 
2. The USA is beholden to China, as China has been financing the USA deficit. 

You can draw your own conclusions as to whether or not the USA will do what they should do to bring China back into line. 



Quoting you: " This situation has been caused by the insatiable desire of the West to buy at ever cheapening prices by exploiting the lowest labor cost countries to fulfill those desires."  It is an inescapable element of the capitalist system that he who delivers the goods for the least amount of money gets the business. We are not a closed system anymore. Our own cost of doing business in the US has made us non-competitive in some areas.


As to your point 1 (abov): China will NOT own the world. Not ever. Unless we LET that happen. We are their largest consumer market.  They have a good thing going with us.  However, we HAVE let this situation get perilously out of balance with our own out-of-control government spending and monetary policies that are just short of insane.  Come to think of it, MAYBE our monetary policies ARE insane. 


All that aside, I have always wanted to HIGHLY compliment you on your own RCS business, your excellent remote control products AND your willingness to work with others by providing knowledge and assistance in your own field of expertise through these forums even when the intended recipients may very well not be buying your product.  I USE those RCS products, which highly reliable, well made (I really like that small but tough transmitter) AND delivered at a reasonable price.  I have much of my remote control installation work done through Dave Goodson, who has installed the RCS systems in several of my locomotives.  You have a great thing going there.  That's capitalism at its finest working through Tony Walsham. I highly recommend the Remote Control System to those considering battery power. In fact, to stay on topic, I highly recommend ANY remote control battery system as a particularly good means of reducing the cost of track.  


My regards,



Ron in AK


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 06 Jan 2010 02:22 PM 

...Yes, we American capitalist pigs are such terrible people. We ALL ought to be ashamed of ourselves for creating the free-market mechanism on a national scale that became international and that brought the world into the 21st Century and probably saved countless millions from mass starvation and otherwise gave them hope for a better life. But I digress from trains here. 

In no way did I criticize what anyone is doing. Nobody is a pig. I was just explaining how things work. It IS capitalistic...and in that environment...sometimes ya do good...and sometimes you don't. The free market system makes economies and peoples lives thrive...or not. Compared to other totalitarian economic approaches, I'll take the free market solution every time. What the Chinese are doing..and the Americans...and everyone else is doing in the free market system is what they want. That's what makes it free.

The only unsettling thing about the whole process is how the current banking system neutralizes nationalism...and I'm not sure that's good. My gut tells me it isn't.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

We are their largest consumer market 

For now. 

I'm wondering what's going to happen when they realize they have a bigger emerging market in their own country and they can make more selling to themselves instead of incurring the ever increasing cost of shipping to the West? Because we've farmed out most of the manufacturing to them, they've been gaining all our expertise while we've been losing it. I would say we better figure out how to get good at it again, and the sooner the better. 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

One day the Chinese are going to want their money back. 

What happens then. Can the USA, or any other country for that matter, pay it back? 
If not what does this group of erudite gentlemen think may happen. 

Ron. Thank you for the words of wisdom re my RCS products. 
I make my stuff here and factor in a fair margin that provides me with a reasonable standard of living. I cannot make RCS products any cheaper. 
I don't want a closed protectionist market. 
All I really want is for there to be a level playing field, as in other supplying countries such as China to also have a floating currency like Australia and the USA does. 
China does not, and their currency is held artificially low to remain competitive supplying the USA. 
I repeat my earlier point. 
If China was forced to float the Yuan the price of rail and track would skyrocket. If they don't float theYuan, the West will sink into their arms.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

As Tony says, China will never be as large a consumer market as the US, despite their vast population, unless they let the yen float. By keeping the yen low China keeps wages low in china--which is a major reason why US manufacturers go there--and prevents china from becoming a consumer power. China has a bunch of big problems on the horizon, chief among them the need to maintain low wages in order to sustain economic growth and the really dramatic gender imbalance. China has some serious nastiness ahead in the medium future.


Historically the US kept wages low by adopting the gold standard and allowing massive immigration--new immigrants historically beat down wages, and shifting to gold caused massive deflation. It worked in the US, most people would say, because productivity gains raised the standard of living. But it barely worked. There were massive strikes in the late nineteenth century that several times paralyzed the country and brought federal troops out. Large parts of American cities in the 1890s looked like Mumbai or Manila. Someone ought to model the Pullman strike, or the 1877 railway strike. Anyway, China keeps wages low not through immigration but through fiscal policy and a long tradition--long as in WAY before Mao--of tight central control from beijing. It has worked extremely well for them but they won't be able to sustain it forever. Chinese consumers are going to get restive. If they raise wages, bingo, manufacturing moves somewhere else where people are more miserable and will work for less. 


As to the US debt, we could all be happy about it. There's no better insurance of world peace than the Chinese investment in US debt.


The low dollar is not necessarily a bad thing. Low value of the dollar makes US goods much more attractive and dramatically helps the manufacturing/export sector. 


If I were king, I would probably be allowing significant but not runaway inflation in the US. Modest inflation is the debtor's best friend. If you want to solve the mortgage crisis, just let their be inflation, and the fixed debt costs of a mortgage become less and less pressing. It's be great for people like me, middle class people with a mortgage, and bad for retirees and those who lend money


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I would LOVE to see everything from China double in price, (or just go away) then see what kind of deal you get at WAL-MART hehe There would be real jobs again.. Yes I know we would all do without some things but it would not take long for some one to start making it, and hire people to do it. So maybe you will only be able to have ONE TV, because they cost more, but then maybe the health of our kids would improve because they would go outside to play and get some exercise. Hey they might even notice the trains running through the garden! Oh you might only buy a new engine every couple of years ( remember when it was a big deal to get a new American Flyer or Lionel engine ) People learned to take care of what they had, the idea that everything has to be cheap and disposable....to what end? To fill up land fills? I heard they opened a Wal-Mart in China and the people flocked in thinking they were going to buy products "Made in America" and walked out empty handed because everything was made in China! Even THEY don't want the CRAP they make!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06 Jan 2010 06:11 PM 
One day the Chinese are going to want their money back... 
Well....that's an interesting point. Tony's talking about the money they invested in the US Treasury securities. For sure it's a fact that the Chinese ownership of so many US businesses...and so much US Treasury security is a stabilizing influence in international affairs. If we go down...they go down. I cannot fathom a way that the US and China would get into a real military pickle...even over Taiwan. There are way to many folks with gold involved. And no matter what anyone says, the Golden Rule still applies today....he who has the gold rules.

Some folks think that China owning all this US property and US debt makes them the king...the one with the gold....that they rule. NOT. If the American government were to put a 100% tarriff on everything imported from China...to protect and grow American commerce it would certainly PISS the Chinese off...and certainly depress their economy. But...in the real world, what could their government do? When you buy a US Treasury Bond...you've bought a piece of debt. The terms of that bond are that it pays you 4.25% a year...up to it's maturity date...and then the principle is paid too. There's no way to DEMAND payment on a bond that I know of. The only thing the bond holder can do is sell the bond...on the open market. And if such a tariff situation was to happen (which it won't), the value of the bond would fall dramatically. That means China loses big if they're the bond owner...and so do all the international banks that have also bought the bonds. 


There's really no way anyone can demand their money back in a free market economy...and everyone knows it. So it's all about a hollow threat. The Golden Rule applies...the international banks own the gold...and they rule. They're not going to allow anyone "wanting their money back"...to rule.


Now...back to trains.

Since track has become an issue...lets talk about the economics of track. The US military sells brass....lots of it. Spent shell casings and such. The going rate is about $2 a pound. It's mostly bought by companies that reload the ammo. Recently, the US Army began to sell the shell casing in bulk...to get a better price...and the Chinese came in and bought it big time...not to be reloaded, but to be recast/re-extruded into other products. The gun folks went nuts. I read lots about this in the NRA news stuff I get. What resulted was the US Army changing it's method of selling ammo brass...so that reloaders were the preferred buyers....NOT folks that might make track out of the spent brass shell casings.


Well...recycled brass still sells for around $2 a pound...and rail uses about a 25 cents per foot at the $2 rate for 332 rail. Now...I don't know metalurgy for squat...but if the brass in our 332 rail only costs 25 a foot...times 2 for two rails...that means the brass content in a 5' piece of track is about $2.50...and I haven't included the price of the ties. If we double the metal cost to cover the cost of the brass extrusion process to make the rail...then track should cost somewhere in the vicinity of $5 for 5' of track....or $1 a foot plus the cost of the ties...let's say $1.25 a foot. Multiply that by 4 to get the normal manufacturing cost to sales cost...and you get $6 a foot. Somehow, I gotta believe that in the US there is a metal company that can make rail for $1 foot...and make a profit...and employ some folks. And...at $6 a foot, I think there are some garden railroaders that would pay that.


Maybe somebody who wants to sell track ought to talk to the shell makers...and see if they can produce rail for $1 a foot. They're already melting brass to make new rounds...and extruding the metal. Maybe more folks can get employed.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm going to make somebody 'an offer they can't refuse'.....


I have a used circle of Aristo R-1 (600mm) track here, it's rather weathered and a little corroded but should clean up OK enough to be usable. I also have a Bachmann transformer out of a Big Hauler set. IF you're a newbie lurker who's ONLY reason not to join in the fun of playing with big trains is the cost of track -- then backchannel me with your story, and if you'll just pay the shipping I'll GIVE them to you.

Fair enough? 


May the new year bring you everything you need, if you got everything you desired there'd be noplace to put it.....


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike is right on the bond debt. If you buy a US savings bond, you are committed to the survival and prosperity of the US. This is why Hamilton wrote that "a national debt may be a national blessing." If china wants to get its money back the only way is to wait for the US to pay, and the bonds compel the US to pay in a set time--there is no way that I know of to accelerate the process. It's like a bank--if it lends you money, it's not going to try to see you fail. If the Chinese decide to dump US Treasury bonds, they will take a HUGE financial bath.

The Chinese hoard American dollars. We adopted a child from China a few years ago, and they require you to bring large amounts of US dollars. They specified new bills. I felt like a drug dealer or some character in a spy movie.They don't want you to convert it to yen, and pay in yen. They want dollars. I assume they want it for foreign exchange, to buy stuff from the rest of the world


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

There is another solution to China refusing to float the Yuan. Other Western importing countries could tie their currency to the US$ too. 

BTW. 
There is one country currently refusing to pay back foreign Government loaned monies. 
Iceland. 
To the Brits and Dutch, who "lent" the Icelanders the wherewithal to bail out the British and Dutch investors in collapsed Icelandic banks at the start of the GFC. 
Apart from casting Iceland into purgatory and refusing them entry in the EU I guess there is not a lot the Brits and Dutch can do if the proposed Icelandic referendum of the people goes ahead and they say NO!!!. 
It will be fun and games then for International co-operation. Albeit on a small scalecompared to China and the USA. 

All of the above is pertinent to the cost of track. 
If the doodlepoop hits the fan we are all in for some more angst. 

After all the World economy recovered a little bit after '29 for about 18 months and then crashed even harder when protectionism started to kick in.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with the fiscal situation United States has nothing to do with China, the banking system, bonds, the Fed, the War on Terrorism or any of that. The problem is that 2/3 of our national budget goes to pay entitlements. It's handed out, pure and simple. And within the next few years 100% of our budget will go to entitlements. Soon after that we will be measuring entitlements in terms of % of GDP. Couple that with the fact that our society has been on a "drunken soldier" spending binge, buying things they did not need (or earn) with money they did not have. And then expect the Gov't to "bailout" everyone with all the "stimulus". Oh and don't forget, the Gov't is jumping on the spending crazy train with another $3 or $4 Trillion in entitlements just in the next 10 years. "Trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see", that's what he said.


Our financial situation is not a political, financial, military or foreign policy issue. It's a moral one.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Last I read, the single largest expense in the US budget was interest payments, not entitlements.
Unless one considers Social Security, which we PAY into, and medicare, which we PAY into, an entitlement.

I'm amazed, and impressed............that this thread has been allowed to run it's course.
But I'm stepping out, before someone gets spanked








Ralph


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

Social Security and Medicare are not "entitlements". We all pay into those funds every pay period and as far as Social Security the government does not make any contributions (not sure on Medicare, but I suspect they do add to the pot). Social Security is entirely funded by us workers. The problem is that the boys (and gals) down in DC saw fit to "borrow" Social Security funds to pay for other little projects that caught their eye. Will they now pay it back? HA! I should live so long. We'll end up paying the money back in the form of increased taxes. 

As far as the cost of track I guess all I can say is that it is a cost of doing business like any other hobby. Have you checked out the prices of hot rod parts recently? Makes our stuff look like penny candy in comparison. All hobbies have expenses that are associated with them. If you want to play, you have to pay (something). 

Mike


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm amazed, and impressed............that this thread has been allowed to run it's course.So long as the discussion remains civil and (relatively) non-political (i.e. non-partisan), there's no reason to interfere.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

This is a strange discussion. It started with a retailer who closed one of his shops and now the Chinese are planning to invade the USA to get their money back. Can not really blame them. After all the western companies which sold them the machinery and the raw material made their profits as well. 

Most customers order by mailorder anyway today, so the will not miss the Las Vegas Shop too much. As long as they don´t have to order and pay the postage from places on the other side of the globe. Many Europeans have to, if they want to buy Chinese-US Models. I might as well order directly in China or India. Evenreceived railroad models made Argentinia last year. 

For me it does not make too much sense, to transport US ammunitioon scrap to China to have simple things like model rail made from it and transport the product all the way back to western markets again. Maybe we Europeans are a bit strange, but most of the rail offered here is made locally. In some cases much cheaper than the import products. After all, it takes not much human labour to pull a few Kilometers or Miles of metal through a machine. I am not sure, but I believe Llagas or Sunset Valley track or the product Train-Li sell, are not made in China. 

Some of the toymakers tried the excursion to China. Some of them failed. More will not be able to pay raising prices in the near future. Maerklin or LGB can´t produce in Hungary, because they are waiting for parts they ordered in China. Sometimes they don´t come, sometimes they simply don´t fit. 
Steiff, the famous maker of plush toys could not sell inferior Chinese qualitity in Europe, so they returned to local production again as well. Many European companies which had their products made elsewhere, started training local workers again. In some cases they had to ask retired foremen to come back, because some of the abilites for productiuon were almost forgotten. 

I am not saying, Chinese products in general are no good. I like Accucraft Live steamers. But I can get a Brit. Roundhouse or German Regner loco for a similiar price level. So in this case everybody is happy. Maybe sooner or later a Chinese worker will even be able to purchase a Regner or Roundhouse loco in his own country. 

We have an amazing high number of Chinese students at European universities now. They learn the language and the European culture and thinking without forgetting their roots. These young folks have very good chances in a global business. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Social Security and Medicare are "pay as you go" systems. The money taken in today, goes out tomorrow. The money you paid in got paid to some else long ago. The money a retiree draws today was was taxed from someone else just recently. It's always been that way. The average person in the U.S. consumes his or her Social Security contribution in just 44 months of retirement, then lives another 15 years. When Social Security started making payments 40 people paid the tax to support 1 in retirement. Today 3 people pay the tax to support 1 in retirement. At the current rate of growth, the ratio will be 2 to 1 in just a few years. The Gov't says Medicare is totally broke in 2017.


We can sit here and argue the numbers, but the fact remains we, as a society, are consuming ourselves fiscally. It's turning into a debt load we can not afford. Someday we will have to pay the bill. 


Enough said about that.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There's nothing hard or complicated or intractable about fixing social security: it would be really really easy. Raise payroll taxes slightly--like 1% or less. End of problem. But since the 80s, taxes have become a forbidden and taboo subject. It's like we are standing around a fire with a bucket of water, shrugging our shoulders helplessly. 



In the 1950s, all Americans paid higher taxes than they do now: Americans are far more lightly taxed than any other people in any industrial nation. That's just a fact. Say what you like about the merits or demerits of taxes, I would agree with you that Americans want the benefits--social security, medicare wars abroad--without paying the cost. If a politician told me "i propose to fix social security by raising everybody's payroll tax by x percent," I'd vote for him, because he'd be offering an honest and practical way to maintain a program I believe in and have been paying into since I was 16. But no one will say this.

Some like social security, some don't. The plain fact is it's easy to fix, but people don't want to pay the cost


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

There's nothing hard or complicated or intractable about fixing social security:
I believe you've forgotten about all the members of the "Upper" & "Lower" houses of the U.S. Congress, and their attitude about spending what is not theirs.


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Error. post deleted


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod, would that be Iceand........ what??? Bundaberg Rum + Coke? Oh!!! OK. Pepsi!!! 

I'll drink to that.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 06 Jan 2010 08:41 AM I am one of the newbie G-Scalers you all seem to refer to.I have been on this sight for about a year and learned a great deal but aside from two loops around the front yard at Christmas, I have not yet gotten started on my permanent layout. Heck I am still completely confused on DCC, DCS, QSI, AIRWIRE and so on… But I will say this.It is posts like this that make me regret spending money to be a 1stReading this is like being on a grade school playground. All the clicks, bickering and backhanded insults. It all makes me want to go back to just stumbling along and figuring it out by trial and error.This thread is like a train wreck, you just can’t look away… and it keeps getting worse. That being said: The cost of track is not the deterrent most of you think it is to newbies. Just like anything else, if you are serious about it you will find the time and the money. I am much more deterred by the overwhelming options and lack of understanding of what is what and what does what and what will work with what than the cost. There are so many options and so many acronyms that I will start reading a post and be lost by the second reply. So the lack of knowing where to start, or what to do next is more a deterrent than the track price.Lack of personal knowledge is why I joined this site, to learn from all of you. However after reading all of this - all I know how to do is complain and insult people that are here to help. Track price is what it is? Is it the same price it was1, 3, 5 years ago, probably not but neither is a new car, or a house or a loaf of bread. As a kid I remember collecting bottles and cans and raking leaves and shoveling snow to get some extra $ to buy things that I wanted. It was that hard work and not being able to just go buy what I wanted when I wanted it that made me value what I had. Do none of you remember going to sleep dreaming of that BB Gun or baseball glove or Train set?So I have to save a bit more and it takes a bit longer… I can buy a set right now for $300 that has everything I need out of the box. That will get anyone started and won’t take that long to save for. The empire in the back yard may need to be a dream for awhile and a goal but that is what makes it a hobby and keeps it fun for me. Building it in my dreams and waiting for that day when I have saved enough to buy that Big Boy, or DCC or DCS or whatever it is I need to control it remotely. So track is $6 a foot, don’t eat out 2 times a month and you can by two 5’ pieces. The golden spike in Utah was not driven because people complained about the cost of steel, it was driven because people dared to dream and put down one rail at a time. If they can put down 3K miles of rail one at a time to build an empire… you can save your pennies and put down one 5’ stick at a time to build yours. But I am a newbie… what do I know. 




class member. 































Idraw4u

Well stated with a good perspective of the hobby as it relates to those who will help it continue. Through I am not sure I would utilize the example of "golden spike" relative to the methods, means and movements of the transcontinental RR as a "model" from which one would be motivated towards the hobby. Yet, maybe you have a point- given how this post goes onto the side track at times. Maybe it is in our nature to be "robber barons" and get the most for our investment!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Jan 2010 11:17 AM 
There's nothing hard or complicated or intractable about fixing social security: it would be really really easy. Raise payroll taxes slightly--like 1% or less. End of problem. But since the 80s, taxes have become a forbidden and taboo subject. It's like we are standing around a fire with a bucket of water, shrugging our shoulders helplessly. 



In the 1950s, all Americans paid higher taxes than they do now: Americans are far more lightly taxed than any other people in any industrial nation. That's just a fact. Say what you like about the merits or demerits of taxes, I would agree with you that Americans want the benefits--social security, medicare wars abroad--without paying the cost. If a politician told me "i propose to fix social security by raising everybody's payroll tax by x percent," I'd vote for him, because he'd be offering an honest and practical way to maintain a program I believe in and have been paying into since I was 16. But no one will say this.

Some like social security, some don't. The plain fact is it's easy to fix, but people don't want to pay the cost

I would vote for the first guy who said "Let's kill income tax with holding, everybody pay quarterly estimate tax in cash to their local IRS office". If that happened, how many nano-seconds would it take to get a new political click in DC.

Seriously thought, the Senate voting last fall to reduce Medicare by $480 Billion should shock a lot of people. Even the talk of it is catastrophic. I have paid into this since 1973 on the promise it would be there for me when I retire. Now I have to worry. Nothing is a "taboo subject" now.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 07 Jan 2010 02:23 PM 
Rod, would that be Iceand........ what??? Bundaberg Rum + Coke? Oh!!! OK. Pepsi!!! 

I'll drink to that. Can I join you??


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 07 Jan 2010 03:07 PM 



Maybe it is in our nature to be "robber barons" and get the most for our investment!




And complain about the cost of track, the evils of Ebay , lack of good service, scarcity of LS hobby stores, high shipping costs, etc, etc. Nothing new here. If you are building your LS layout ANYWAY, you have MADE you CHOICE ! You have SET your PRIORITIES. For many of us, the ONLY inexpensive part of this hobby was that initial purchase of that first Bachmann set at Sam's Club, probably to run around a long-forgotten Christmas tree years ago. "Get the _most_ for our investment ?" You're kidding, right ?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends on how one plays the "toy market" as to initial investment related to set value. For example purchase good quality used track or high quality engines (auctions etc) that do not loss value over time (eg Aster locomotives) then one gets the most for their investment to the point of making a profit in the end (once one is too old to play) or not taking a loss. If it had true "free market" applications there would be speculators, investors, stocks, major manufacturers, etc. I do not know of any outside sponsors with their logos on a Bachmann, Aristocraft, etc.

The true "return for one's money" in any hobby is not the balance sheet but the involvement, therefore I for one will not be shorted with my time or money spent in the hobby. As to track, you got to pay (ether time, talent or money) to play. So, either make it, pay it now or over time accumulative (probably how must of us had done it) the iron ribbons in the little empire one builds.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 07 Jan 2010 03:58 PM 

(once one is too old to play) 



i think, here you err.
from those persons with a hobby, who i know personally, i got the impression that many treat their toys like their arms: you may have them - but out of my cold hand.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06 Jan 2010 08:08 PM 
I'm going to make somebody 'an offer they can't refuse'.....


I have a used circle of Aristo R-1 (600mm) track here, it's rather weathered and a little corroded but should clean up OK enough to be usable. I also have a Bachmann transformer out of a Big Hauler set. IF you're a newbie lurker who's ONLY reason not to join in the fun of playing with big trains is the cost of track -- then backchannel me with your story, and if you'll just pay the shipping I'll GIVE them to you.

Fair enough? 


May the new year bring you everything you need, if you got everything you desired there'd be noplace to put it..... 


Just to let you all know, I've been just totally SWAMPED with takers on this offer --- (Not ONE single enquiry so far)... I'd have thunk if it was such a CRISIS there would AT LEAST be a few in a day...but I guess it's a couple hours or so early yet?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting, you are trying to GIVE track away, but because you are not a 1st class member you can not put it in the classifieds.... Maybe you could put the offer in the Beginners forum, of maybe one of the mods will put it in the classifieds, bending the rules as a good will gesture ?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06 Jan 2010 08:08 PM 
I'm going to make somebody 'an offer they can't refuse'.....


I have a used circle of Aristo R-1 (600mm) track here, it's rather weathered and a little corroded but should clean up OK enough to be usable. I also have a Bachmann transformer out of a Big Hauler set. IF you're a newbie lurker who's ONLY reason not to join in the fun of playing with big trains is the cost of track -- then backchannel me with your story, and if you'll just pay the shipping I'll GIVE them to you.

Fair enough? 


May the new year bring you everything you need, if you got everything you desired there'd be noplace to put it..... 




One of the things I desire is a place to put all the things I need!


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Yer gonna PLAY, you gotta PAY!! Right???? LOL Regal 

Just like crinimals you gonna do the CRIME ya gots ta do the TIME!! Hee Hee


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Back to what this topic started out about I am sorry to hear/read about St. Aubin closing the Las Vegas Store.

Game on









News about Jon retiring..well what can I say except that now maybe I'l start spending some of my 20k a year train budget up at St. Aubin which by the way is only a few minutes away from me









As far as I'm concerned this guy has it right..lots of trains and a HUGE layout to play with








If you don't like it the I suggest you cal Dr. Ruth


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