# Favorite battery pack?



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Since it's been a while, I thought I might initiate yet another battery discussion. I have had good performance from one of the Cordless Renovation Li-ion 18V packs, but I'm considering switching to all "cordless drill" type packs that can be charged inside and plugged in or "swapped" on the train without having to bring power to the track or removing a battery car and haul it into the house each time. I could use a loose battery pack with a plug and do basically the same thing, but the slide in pack is a little more convenient once a receptacle has been installed in the train. I see drill packs for $14 from Harbor freight and a charger for $5. At only $5 a charger, I could buy several just to use the receptacle (which would be mounted on the train....box car probably). I think the packs are only 1.5 amp hour packs which will probably only give me a little over an hour of run time but with the ease of popping in a fresh pack that wouldn't be an issue for me and I suppose I could double up and run two packs in parallel. Is there a flaw in my thinking?
Don


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What you are buying from Harbor Freight is cheap packs, at a nice discount price. The energy density is not as great, the chargers probably has lower quality components, but it's no longer rocket science. 

So for more volume, and probably fewer charges, you are paying a lot less. If you have the space for larger or two batteries, it works. 

Since I don't own a battery company, there is definitely nothing wrong with your thinking!!! 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I suspect that for bang for the buck, you probably can't beat the plan you are thinking about. Personally I don't like the size and weight of the drill batteries, but they are definitely a lot less expensive than the li-ion batteries I use! I like a run time approaching 4 hours with my engines, and I like to be able to swap out the batteries when they do deplete. I know a lot of folks think that you can do better cost wise on li-ion batteries, but I have just had phenomenal luck with the Aristo li-ion battery packs and their chargers. Some of my batteries are now approaching 5 years old, and I still can't see any measurable reduction in runtime. But I know I am paying significantly more per "amp-hour" than you'll be paying with your Harbor Freight batteries, so one just can't fault your game plan!!

Ed


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I've been using the harbor freight 18 volt packs for a while. They are 1300mAh, so not high density but they do seem to work well and have undergone many cycles. I paid $9 for mine as they run frequent sales. I bought the charger but DO NOT USE IT TO CHARGE!!! They will destroy your battery if you leave it plugged in too long.

I bought this charger for NiCd and NiMH: http://www.batteryspace.com/multi-currentuniversalsmartchargerforany24-72vnimhnicdbatterypack.aspx I made a connector to use the Harbor Freight charger plug. Works great. With a few charged I just cycle in a new one to the box car trailing the loco. I just use two spade clips to connect the battery to the loco / battery car wiring. One runs my USAT GP-9 for about 2 hours on minimal grades pulling ~10 cars. YMMV 

russ


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Be carefull with Aristo Batterys.

A (FEW) have had good luck with them.

But from what i have read and been told their

Batterys are Not very good Quality yet and are way to pricey


You cant always believe what you reed on other websites.....


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Russ, 
Could you give me the demensions of the Harbor freight 18V packs? Will one easily fit in a box car? How about if it is plugged into the charger? (I planned to use a charger as a receptical). 
Thanks 
Don


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## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

Nick 
I have been using aristo batteries along with some tenergy batteries. In the years I have been using the aristo's, I never had any issue with them. They work just great. This is a statement from experience rather than what you may read.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Hey Nick !!!,,,,,I have 6 Aristo Lith-ion with no problems. Run them all the time, in the cold and heat................Jim


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Like i said, a few have had good luck but many have not.........


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Don, I've had good success with the Aristo Li-ions as well. 

My mainstay at this time is Cordless Renovations 14.8 5200's and the 18.5 volt 5200 and 10400. They're work horses for the bigger stuff.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I use the Tenergy 2600mAh 14.8v Li-Ion packs. No problems so far. Run times average between 3 - 4 hours per charge, and they're removable so I can just swap out and keep running. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, what do you have to pay for those packs? 

The thread was started on an idea to use very inexpensive packs, $14 each. 

As an aside (not to your comment Kevin), getting derailed on Aristo quality, and li-ion packs is really not what the OP (original poster) was asking. 

I think we could learn more exploring low cost alternatives. We all know the prices of Aristo and Cordless Renovations packs. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Yes Greg,

I agree. 


Lets focus on the topic 

And not on the fact Aristo's Batterys arn"t as good as they could be.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Since Nick won't let the quality issue die, I personally would like to hear from people who have had personal experience with poor quality with Aristo li-ion batteries. All I see posted on this thread are people who have had a good experience with them.

I think, back to the original poster's question, that a lot here depends on how often you want to swap out your batteries. There is a big difference in run time between a battery with 1300 mah vs. a battery with 7800 mah or higher. Of course there is a huge difference in price for that difference too!!!

Ed


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

The initial run of A-C batteries had problems, but the 4 I purchased were replaced by A-C. I ran the replacement batteries for several years with no problems. I have since changed over to 14.8V batteries with higher mAh ratings.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree, Jim, I too had some problems with the original generation of Aristo batteries, which were duly replaced free of charge. All of my batteries are now of the "newer generation (which came out several years ago)" and these are the ones which I have had such excellent service from.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've been reading all the forums since the batteries came out. There was indeed a bad batch, and it was the circuit, not actually the batteries. Everything I have heard though, was that Aristo did indeed stand behind their batteries. 

Back to the original topic, $14 for 1.6 amp hour, or $28 for 3.2 amp hours is cheap. How many cycles they will last? who knows, but it's a cheap experiment. 

I agree though that it's probably worth investing in a good charger, if the Harbor Freight one does not work. For $5, I'd buy the charger and see how it performs, i.e. how long it takes to charge the battery when it's flat, and how quickly it detects a full battery applied to the charger and shuts off. Some simple observations will tell you a lot about how well it works. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 04 Jan 2011 05:57 PM 
I agree, Jim, I too had some problems with the original generation of Aristo batteries, which were duly replaced free of charge. All of my batteries are now of the "newer generation (which came out several years ago)" and these are the ones which I have had such excellent service from.

Ed

I rest my case..............

Quote

Since Nick won't let the quality issue die,











Once you go track, you never go back............


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Posted By sailbode on 04 Jan 2011 09:05 AM 
Russ, 
Could you give me the demensions of the Harbor freight 18V packs? Will one easily fit in a box car? How about if it is plugged into the charger? (I planned to use a charger as a receptical). 
Thanks 
Don 
Don,

The 18 volt battery is: 3 1/8" wide by 5 1/2" long by 3" high. It easily fits into a box car, in fact two will fit into a 40' Lionel boxcar. The receptacle makes the combination 3 3/8" high and just a weeeee bit longer at 5 17/32". Of course you must plug the power into the end so that will make it longer. I have found just using spade clips works great for power, no need to use the charger. I do use the charger connector and a special connector to the smart battery charger I linked to earlier.


russ


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin, what do you have to pay for those packs? 
I pay about $35 - $42 for each pack depending on if they're having a sale or if I have a coupon, etc. Yes, the NiCad packs in question are cheaper, even when buying two packs to get equal capacities. (Though not by too much). But the monetary cost of the batteries is only part of the equation. In exchange for the cheaper cost, you've got a lot of extra weight inside a trailing car behind the locomotive where it's adding to the load on the motors, taking away from your pulling capacity and decreasing your run times. 

Part of Don's question is "is there a flaw in my thinking?" In my opinion, the answer is "yes." The flaw comes in the increased weight for limited capacity. So you can swap them out. You can do that with the Li-Ion packs, too, and do it less frequently with much less weight, resulting in reduced drag on the system, giving you longer run times. I've been there with heavy batteries. Lighter is definitely better. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If there are no significant grades, weight means very little. Even with grades, not everyone needs the lightest locos to have a great experience. 

Many people using batteries don't need the maximum run time (and of course nowhere near track power ha ha). 

So, I'll agree weight can make a difference, but it's not a big red X against using 2 packs vs. 1. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

So, I'll agree weight can make a difference, but it's not a big red X against using 2 packs vs. 1. 
Weight, having to change the packs out every hour because of pathetically low capacities... Sure, they're not insurmountable issues. But they are part of the "cost" of the system. If your criteria is purely monetary, then you accept the other issues as part of the compromise of doing things "on the cheap." That's fine. I've merely decided over the years there are certain conveniences I like in my choice of battery technology which more than justify the added cost of the battery pack itself. It's like using aluminum rail for track power. Sure, it's probably the cheapest way to do track, but it comes with considerable baggage that doesn't justify the cost savings. Money isn't the only consideration in any decision. 

Later, 

K


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, each to his own. The way I enjoy my trains, weight and 1 to 2 hour run times are not an issue. coughing up $75 for each pack is an issue. But you guys are missing one of the major points I was trying to address: Canabalizing the $5 charger to get a "slideon" battery reciever, which makes the whole battery swap a piece of cake.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, we were talking apples to apples, 2 packs... you quoted this in your response, then you say changing out the packs because of low capacities. 

You have contradicted the information (and logic) even within your post. TWO packs totaling the same amp hours as one of your "non-pathetic" packs. 

And weight again, is simple physics. If slight grades, all you have is rolling resistance, weight means virtually nothing on the flat. 

And I did miss the $5 connector, pretty smart! 

It really seems this is another "Kevin just going contrary to what Greg says" thread.... sigh... 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There are three scenarios in play. The first is a single "pathetically low" capacity pack that would need to be swapped out fairly regularly. The second involves two packs in parallel. The first scenario does not pose any concerns relative to weight, but you've got the swapping issues. The second solves the swapping issues, but introduces concerns relative to weight. In my experience, they do need to be mitigated lest you cause undue wear on the trucks (or break them from the weight). The third is to stick with the Li-Ion technology which eliminates both the weight and swapping issues, but does cost a bit more per pack. It's all about which poison you'd rather drink. I've drank from all three cups over the years, and know which one I find the most palatable. (And that's without even taking into consideration the strengths and weaknesses of the specific battery chemistries.) 

The question that hasn't been addressed is what's keeping Don from just swapping out the Li-Ion batteries he already has? Why does he have to bring the entire battery car in to be charged? If there's an "inherent flaw" in any of this, it's that it seems he doesn't have a "battery car" in the traditional sense of a car in which you can swap batteries in and out, but has a rolling battery pack that must be swapped out in its entirety for a new "rolling battery pack." _That's_ the problem I'd be looking to solve first. Choosing a particular battery chemistry would come second to that. 

Later, 

K


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 05 Jan 2011 12:12 PM 
.... Why does he have to bring the entire battery car in to be charged? If there's an "inherent flaw" in any of this, it's that it seems he doesn't have a "battery car" in the traditional sense of a car in which you can swap batteries in and out, but has a rolling battery pack that must be swapped out in its entirety for a new "rolling battery pack." _That's_ the problem I'd be looking to solve first. Choosing a particular battery chemistry would come second to that. 

Later, 

K 
Well...see, that's another issue...where the battery is charged. One thing I think we've all learned is that it's not really safe to recharge a Li-ion battery INSIDE a car or engine. So, those choosing the Li-ion approach must remove the battery from the car/engine to charge it...preferably in an appropriate ceramic charging vessel (to contain any potential fire). Those ceraminc charging vessel's cost should be considered, like the charger cost, when considering Li-ions...or Li-Pos.


Second...charging times. Li-ions charge faster, so theoretically, you'd need fewer batteries to keep running continuously.


Third...size. Li-ions have about twice the charge density of NiMN/NiCads. Therefore, for a given weight or volume availability, you can get twice as much capacity on board...doubling run times/weight or volume.

Fourth...cost...and this is where the difference is. CR's 18v 2600 mah pack is $89. HF's equivalent capacity would be two1300 mah batteries...at $20 (they're on sale now for $9.99 http://www.harborfreight.com/18-vol...7029.html) . 


Fifth...lifespan 1. We know that Li-ions have a 10x or better life span compared to NiCads when measured by number of recharges...assuming you recharge each type properly. If you use a crap charger (like that $5 one), the multiplier gets way larger. So, in the long look, even though Li-ions cost 4 times more, if you run a lot (and recharge a lot), then the Li-ion might be less expensive.


Sixth...readiness. One of the beauties of the Li-ion battery is that retain their charge after charging. NiMH/NiCads don't. So, if you have a recharged Li-ion battery that's been on the shelf for two months...it will probably power your engine just fine. That's not true for the NiMH/NiCads...after three months they're pretty dead...so they won't be "ready" for you when you want to operate.

Seventh...lifespan 2. We know that Li-ions lose about 20% of their capacity per year from internal chemistry changes. After 5 years they're dead if you store them fully charged. This is not true for NiMH/NiCad batteries. Properly charged, they last forever practically...but storing them fully charged means zip if you leave them on the shelf for months. But the devil in the details is "properly charged"...this requires a sophisticated charger...something way better than that $5 rig. I use a $100 Maha. There's some literature out there that says if you store Li-ion batteries at 80% charge, they last longer than 5 years. I just haven't found a charger that lets me automatically end charging at 80%.


In summary...if $6/ft track and $100 batteries are getting you down, those $10 batteries from HF sound like a good option to help with the finances...but I don't see em as a panacia.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Anybody hear the "dueling banjo's" from Deliverance here between GE, and EB besides me?????? Hah LOL Regal da da da da da ! dew dew dew dew dew dew dew! da da da da da!! Just a pickin and a grinin!! 

Oh and Yeah I use Nicads cheaper and safer!! IMHO!! Charge em right from me widdle boxcar! Easey Peasey!! Oh and me runs are an hour or so long!! When I know I'm running next day I charges em the night before, and always have an extra boxcar or set of batteries handy. 4200 mah 7.2's 2 for $49.00 shipped free,wired in series with charger jack just behind the sliding door!!


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

"In summary...if $6/ft track and $100 batteries are getting you down, those $10 batteries from HF sound like a good option" Maybe this poor economy doesn't affect some of you, but it certainly has empacted my descretionary spending. If $$ was not a concern...at all, I'd be talking about Li-ion drill packs. It may not seem like a big deal to unplug a deans connector, or clip on some allegator clips, but if you've spent some time with an outdoor layout that has "plug in" packs you might understand why I've brought this all up. The HF packs are dirt cheap and the chargers (also dirt cheap) can be used as connectors. 

If I was a contractor and could get 3 hours from my cordless drill instead of 1.5, it might be significant, but to me, If it takes 2 seconds to slap in a fresh pack, I dont care. Actually gives me an excuse to put down my adult beverage and go tinker with my trains. I see some guys pulling 20 cars and more. Do you think I worry about weight pulling at most 8? I just ordered 5 HF packs and 4 chargers for $69. Now all that $$ I would have spent on Li-ion I can use to buy more track, or a few more cars. For me, in my train world, this is a no brainer.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

...
Well...see, that's another issue...where the battery is charged. One thing I think we've all learned is that it's not really safe to recharge a Li-ion battery INSIDE a car or engine. So, those choosing the Li-ion approach must remove the battery from the car/engine to charge it...preferably in an appropriate ceramic charging vessel (to contain any potential fire). Those ceraminc charging vessel's cost should be considered, like the charger cost, when considering Li-ions...or Li-Pos......

We'll, I guess I haven't learned that lesson yet, because all of my Li-Ions get charged on-board and inside a building .... Just like my laptop, which uses identical Li-Ion cells (18650's) as far as I know. I know this is a hot topic, but personally, I am very comfortable with it. If your not, then stick with NiCad and NiMh. They work just fine too.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Many people swap their batteries out to charge them. 

Sailbode's method is an even easier connection than the tamiya connectors that others use. 

Kevin, you are doing exactly what you accused me of last time, wanting everything built like a tank, by the way! 

Let's focus on what the original poster asked and wanted, and try to give him answers. 

I think fresh thinking is good. I think optimizing your dollars is good. 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 05 Jan 2011 02:00 PM 
...We'll, I guess I haven't learned that lesson yet, because all of my Li-Ions get charged on-board and inside a building .... Just like my laptop, which uses identical Li-Ion cells (18650's) as far as I know. I know this is a hot topic, but personally, I am very comfortable with it. If your not, then stick with NiCad and NiMh. They work just fine too.

I understand your position...and it's fully yours to make. I was just trying to list all the pertinent considerations regarding Li-ions (and Li-pos)...and as you pointed out, "this is a hot topic"...especially in the hobby world (where serious engineering (as in computers and phones) hasn't been accomplished)...and in legal circles. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with the Li-ions/Li-pos if the versions that were offered for GRR trains had the balancing jack. In the RC airplane world, the use of the balancing jack (with a balancing charger) has reported reduced the number of battery fires during charging...least that's the claim. Others will point out that RC plane batteries take a beating from vibration, landing, and crashes...and that's why they've shown a higher propensity to explode/burn...but when they do, they REALLY burn...and those are tiny packs compared to the ones we use.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I must disagree with the contention that NiCd batteries self discharge at the same rate as NiMh. 
That has not been my (long term) experience at all. 
Quite the contrary. I often charge up the NiCd batteries in one my demo locos after a show/steam up and do not use the loco again until the next meet in 6 months time. I always top them up prior to the show with a Maha smart charger, and the capacity they take is minuscule. Maybe 10%. 
Regular NiMh batteries always go flat by self discharging within weeks. Especially AA size. 
Hybrid Alkaline/NiMh cells are guaranteed to hold 85% of charge for one year and that has also been my experience. 
I have very little experience with Li-Ion and none at all with Li-Po apart from my I Phone. My battery supplier refuses to sell me Li-Po.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I have to confess that like Del, I have not seen any evidence that it is more dangerous charging my li-ion batteries than my phone and/or laptop computer. I am, however, very careful that I charge my batteries with the charger recommended by the manufacturer.

The other thing that puzzles me is this issue that by the time a li-ion battery is 5 years old, it is essentially dead. Most of my li-ion batteries are at least 3-4 years old, and some of them pushing 5 years old, I and honestly cannot see much difference in my run time with any particular engine. I recently bought two new batteries of the same type (Aristo) and I honestly don't see much if any difference in runtime between these relatively new batteries with the older ones. I have probably averaged charging my older batteries once very week or so for their life. Are my batteries getting ready to "die on me" any day now??? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I just do not see this deterioration issue. What am I missing??

Ed


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I ain't making that 5 year life thing up. There are lots of articles on the net about the issue because the Li-ion technology is going into cars. Here's one from ZDNet...a respected outfit.

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/emergin...or-10-year-lithium-ion-battery-life-40088554/Article link


Anyway...this side discussion about Li-ion is taking us off the topic here...cheap NiMH batteries for trains.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Mike, I am definitely not attacking your comments about the life of li-ion batteries, and I don't have any data to disagree with them, except my personal experience. I am thrilled that I haven't seen this yet, but I'm honestly puzzled why I haven't!! (and needless to say, very pleased!!!)

This whole issue of the 5 year life raises some interesting issues when one thinks about the new Chevrolet Volt and the Nissan Leaf which both have li-ion batteries. Seems their battery life will only be 5 years? Hmmmmm!!!! (Guess I'm happy that my Prius has ni-mh batteries!!!!)

Ed


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05 Jan 2011 04:35 PM 
---This whole issue of the 5 year life raises some interesting issues when one thinks about the new Chevrolet Volt and the Nissan Leaf which both have li-ion batteries. Seems their battery life will only be 5 years? Hmmmmm!!!! (Guess I'm happy that my Prius has ni-mh batteries!!!!)

Ed

You got that right...for sure...that's why there's so much money going into Li-ion research now...to extend the life of em. I still say that if a Volt or a Leaf or a Tesla are in a bad crash....RUNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The clock starts with Lithium batteries as soon as the cells are assembled... 

Operating and storing temperatures and cumulative charge cycles are a BIG player in their life as well, charging forms deposits in the electrolyte; the resulting increase in internal resistance diminishes capacity and the ability to deliver current. 

Average life is 3-5 years or the claimed 1000 charge cycles. Seems you’d be lucky to realize 500 cycles in my testing…

The typical Lithium Ion cells or #18650’s we use do not have the propensity for combustion or to ignite when miss used and or miss charged with respect to the typical Lithium Poly batteries due the nature of the enclosure, charge limiting and depleting safety circuits and the mechanical pressure relief valve afforded of the individual cells assembly.

There is some good information on this technology for those who want to learn more about same, see link below.

Lithium Ion battery info link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

There are disparaging differences in application, specification, form factor, safety features and charging precautions at the very least of Lithium Ion and Lithium Poly battery technology. 

Lithium Polymer battery link info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer

I believe that this technology was embraced without the proper understanding of its idiosyncrasies and accordingly lots of problems were realized early on… 

I like the individual cell monitoring that is common place with today’s Lithium Poly offerings. I like it so much that I incorporate it in my Lithium Ion batteries as well. In a nut shell this new approach monitors each cells voltage and allows the charger to balance the cells respective state of charge by matching all the cells to a pre-determined value prior to initiating a charge (individual cells will be discharged as required or matched, subsequently the battery (cells) is charged).

*FWIW:* You can get a *BIG* bang for the buck with Lithium Poly, while these cells are designed for grand discharge curves as high as 40C which is typical of performance RC Aircraft/Car/Boat demands, the low end low “C” rated batteries are perfect for our needs. 

See the link below for Li-Poly rataed @20C, 6S/22.2V/5000mAh for $59.95 USD or a 3000mAh 4S/14.8V for $18.12 USD. 

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=317

*What is “C” or C-rate?*

The charge and discharge current of a battery is commonly referred to as its “C” rating. A 1000mAh battery provides 1000mA for one hour if discharged at 1C rate. The same battery discharged at 0.5C would provide 500mA or 0.5 Amps for two hours. At 2C, the 1000mAh battery would deliver 2000mA or 2 Amps for 30 minutes. 

Lithium Ion #18650 cells have a “C” rating of 2 or 2C. Today’s offerings are typically 2200mA and can provide 4.4A continuous discharge for about 20 minutes in my tests of multiple batteries on a Electronic Load before voltage depression decays the rated 3.7V per cell. 

When Li-Ion cells start to go flat and or permanently go away there is little to know warning if any. 

Have fun,
Michael


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Very informative Michael.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience with nicads and nimih on "going flat" is exactly what Tony stated. In many ways, nimih was a step backwards, really no advantage except some increase in energy density. 

Regulay li-ion batteries usually have 300-400 full charge/discharge cycles.... I know there are ones "rated" higher... have never encountered them, they are definitely NOT being used in my laptop, shaver, phone, or the other 20 devices I have with them in it. 

On the other hand, I do have some nicad devices with 10 year old batteries, in fact if you have an old Makita tool, with the long skinny battery pack, it's probably many years old. 

I don't expect anything more from my li-ions, and I am not disappointed. I buy a $200 laptop battery every couple of years (li-ion)... 

Regards, Greg


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Don, 

I also run a Cordless Renovations 18V 2600mah Li-ion battery in my 3 truck shay, and ran it for over 4 hours at Marty's. I am very happy with the battery's performance and quality and will be staying with them. I have seen many people use the drill packs, and have great success with them. I also have considered going with that type of battery, but there are a few things that will keep me from that method. 

First, I want my batteries contained in my loco, which is something I absolutely cannot do with the drill packs. I personally do not want to run a battery car as standard. 

Second is cost....my CR battery was $89 and it runs for over 4 hours. Considering the HF batteries are $14 each, for an hour's time (estimated)...that is $56 plus $5 for the socket and now you have $61 to reach that 4 hour time. I am not afraid to say my CR battery will probably last nearly twice as long as the HF batteries. If so you are now up to $122 That doesn't count the cost of the car to use as a trailer. 

One thing you must consider when using a large pack, such as a drill battery is Center Of Gravity....you are putting a lot of weight up high, and on tight curves or track that's not level, that may bite you. 

My battery is fully contained within my shay, and is charged inside the tender. I have purchased a CR-1 smart charger, and to this day have had NO problems doing it that way. Yes, I have to pull the loco out of service to charge the battery, but after 4 hours of running, it deserves a break. 

That's my 2 cents. 
Chris


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, If you wired up the charge jack the way I recommend you would not have to take the loco out of service. You simply plug in an auxiliary battery pack mounted in the first trail car and keep on running. 
Then you can charge the batteries at your leisure and will not have lost a loco from service.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I did that Tony, and can do that for extended run times. I was talking about when the battery needed recharged I had to take it out of service.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

You only need to take the loco out of service when you have stopped operating.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Chris, sounds like you have a system that works well for you and 4 hours of run time is what you enjoy. If I were you I'd be thinking of how to get charging power track-side so as not to have to remove the train from the track. Your figures are skewed a bit as the run times quoted from folks using the HF packs are more like 1.5. Current price per pack is $9. and if you followed the discussion on battery lifespan, the NiMa HF packs may be running long after your lithium packs have quit (3-5 years or 500 cycles). You do make a good point about CG and I will be giving that some consideration when mounting the reciever socket. I have been using Li-Po batteries in my rc planes for several years and they typicaly fail after 2 years....of course I abuse the **** out of them If the HF packs used NiCds they would be better yet. And lastly, onboard "installed" batteries are fine until you find them discharged and you're wanting to show somebody your train..... been there. 
Micheal, thanks! very informative and yup we're having fun


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael. 
If you did it the way I suggest it wouldn't matter if the on board batteries were discharged when you wanted to show someone your trains. 
You just plug the auxiliary batteries into the charge jack and motor right along.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I suspect the "installed" battery is not easily removed so in order to charge "it" (the installed battery), the train must be taken out of service. Chris has already said he doesn't like battery cars.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Don, 

For regular operations on my RR i will be using strictly the on-board batteries. However, I have wired my loco (with Tony's help) to allow me to couple a battery car to the rear of the loco, and plug it into the battery charge port on the loco, and then just keep running using the battery in the trailing car. When it is all said and done (way in the future) I will have a charging station in my shop which I can run any locos to and recharge the battery without removing them from the track. 

One thing about how long the CR battery will last vs the HF battery, is the Quality of the battery. For $9, quality is going to be limited, and that will greatly effect how long your battery will last. But, even if that battery lasts you only a year, $9 is a very economical solution. 

Something you may investigate, I believe (don't quote me on this) that the drill packs are simply filled with individual cells. You may investigate removing them from the plastic casing and simply adding your own connector to the pack. The reason I suggest that is you remove some of the bulk, and you can standardize on a connector, and plug whatever battery you want into your battery car. 

Chris


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Don. 
I am well aware of what Chris is saying. 
I am not advocating battery cars as the primary source of the power. Merely using them as a battery back up facility for the on board batteries. 
My point is that there is no need to take any loco out of service to charge it during a running session, because the on board battery is depleted. 
An operator can wait until the session is over to recharge it when he is not using it anyway. 

The circuit automatically disconnects the on board batteries when the auxiliary batteries in the trail car are plugged into the loco charge jack. 
This arrangement is also ideal for locos that don't have much space for high capacity batteries. 
Use small capacity batteries for yard switching work and plug in big capacity batteries for the mainline running. 

You might want to read up on it here. *Wiring auxiliary batteries* all parts are available at Radio Shack or similar outlets.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin, you are doing exactly what you accused me of last time, wanting everything built like a tank, by the way! 
I think you're misreading me. Not "everything," just that which needs to be. My cordless drill packs weigh in at 2 pounds a piece. One of these packs in a battery car will not be much of an issue. You should expect to run that car with stock trucks for years and be okay. Two of them in a car would be 4 pounds, which is in the neighborhood of what we were pulling with two gel cell or motorcycle headlight batteries onboard. When we were pulling that much weight, we had issues with the trucks on the battery cars--not just pulling the weight on the grades, but the physical wear and tear on the trucks from supporting that much weight in general. When we switched to the much lighter NiCad packs, it was no surprise that the issues we were having with trucks went away. It sounds odd to think that just two pounds could make that much of a difference, but that's what we experienced. _If_ I were to "double-up" and run two drill battery packs in parallel for longer run times, I'd make sure the trucks in the car were up to the task, either die-cast or at least having ball-bearing wheels or journals. But that's the only circumstance of those we're discussing for which I'd recommend that. A single pack? There's no need to worry. 

Later, 

K


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course I could put the second pack in a second car to spread the weight over 4 trucks instead of 2...if I really wanted 3+ hours of run time. 

Tony, I'm well aware of your aux battery jacks and how they work as I have installed several (purchased from Don Sweet). I understand your point. Mine is that if Chris wants to charge the installed battery, which is his preferred source of power, he must remove the loco from the track (until he gets his trackside charger. These are minor inconveniences for many of us who employ these types of battery arrangments and we learn to cope. I have had some experience with a large multi train layout with a primary owner operator who could not be bothered keeping track of all the different battery charge levels...in some cases both the primary and aux batteries were allowed to go flat and of course this would happen at the most remote location in the layout at the worst time (Murphy). Now without easy swap out batteries, we would have to climb over the layout and carry the loco back to the charging station (sometimes embarrassing). We have converted most of my friends trains to Milwaukee 18V 3 amp Li-Ion packs with home made connectors...takes 2 seconds to slap in a fresh pack. Also, the Milwaukee packs have LED charge level indicators. HE LOVES IT! I'd like something similar for myself but the Milwaukee packs aint cheap, which is why I am where I am. 
Chris, your suggestion regarding making my own "plug in" connector is something I have given some thought. As Stan has said, Drill pack connectors come and go, and it might not be smart to get "locked in " to one type of connector. 
Still learning, still experimenting, and enjoying the process. I suspect there will not be a "one size fits all" system that will make everyone happy. I do enjoy the exchange of ideas and experiences....(as long as it doesn't get heated) and thank all for their input. 
Don


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Just a little more information on this topic. I purchased a HF $9 drill pack and their $5 charger back in August. I took the plastic case off from the pack and just mounted the batteries in a Bachmann tender. I wired in a large watt resistor and used spade terminals to hook the battery up to my tender wiring. I used the connection from the loco to the tender from my Big Hauler loco to power the loco with just a forward-off-reverse switch. When the battery needs rechaging I unplug the tender wiring and pulg in the cheap charger. I figured for less that $15 it would be a good experiment. So far it has worked fine. I'm sure at some point I'll kill the batteries, but I won't be out much. I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, just that it works. By the way, as you might expect, the resistor does get hot so I keep it away from any plastic. If at some point I decide to go with a perminent set up I'll either buy or make an electronic speed control.
Bob


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bob, 
What kind of run times are you getting? 

In case you don't already know, Dels critter control will do a great job of controlling your train and save on the abropt "on/off" shock to the motor and gears. For $30 might be a good investment http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/Electronics.htm 

and for a few extra $$ you will also get the ability to have the train come to a slow stop, wait 30 seconds, and then slowly accelerate and resume it's travel. I think that is very cool for a simple none rc control.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By sailbode on 06 Jan 2011 12:08 PM 
Hi Bob, 
What kind of run times are you getting? 

In case you don't already know, Dels critter control will do a great job of controlling your train and save on the abropt "on/off" shock to the motor and gears. For $30 might be a good investment http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/Electronics.htm 

and for a few extra $$ you will also get the ability to have the train come to a slow stop, wait 30 seconds, and then slowly accelerate and resume it's travel. I think that is very cool for a simple none rc control. 

I probably will do that this coming spring. I just wanted to see if it would work and if the batteries would last. I'm not sure how long of a run time I get. I haven't tried to run it much over and hour. By then I get tired of it and run something else. Since it's just off or on I run it on a loop by it self while I run another train on the rest of the layour with DCC track power. The Big Hauler loco is pulling two passenger cars. 
Bob


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

FYI . . .for those interested what's inside a cordless drill plastic case. This is a DC9096XRP 18V DeWalt (owned by Black & Decker) NC2500SCR HRD insert battery-pack that we manufacturer for DeWalt.









Rick Isard
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By izzy0855 on 06 Jan 2011 05:56 PM 
FYI . . .for those interested what's inside a cordless drill plastic case. This is a DC9096XRP 18V DeWalt (owned by Black & Decker) NC2500SCR HRD insert battery-pack that we manufacturer for DeWalt.









Rick Isard
Cordless Renovations, LLC
No,

I dont think most people are interested in what YOU have to offer Lately.............

Just an observation of course.............


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick...do you make those DC9096XRP 18V DeWalt packs inside the US? I know the cells come from Asia, but do you guys actually build that assembly at your plant in the US? Second question...what is the mah rating of that pack?


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Rick, 

Is that silicone you use to hold the cells together? 

Chris


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Nick, thanks for the kind words... 

Mike, yes we manufacture the inserts for the DeWalt brand here in Iowa, and those cells are the new Sanyo NC2500SCR - NiCd 2500mah HRD (High Rate Discharge) cells distributed by Sanyo out of San Diego, CA., manufactured in Japan. These cells are used in Jaws of Live, Impact Guns & Recipicanting Saws... 

Chris, this is an older picture when we used High Temp Glue from a glue gun, but now we use a clear liquid base glue (not a gel) from Hernon Manufacturing called Quantum 124. It's just like Super Glue but about 5 times stronger; it hardens in 15 seconds and dry's clear. It's alittle expensive for a 7 oz bottle and you can only purchase it through one their distributors. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Rick, could you explain what the "extra" contacts are for? I mean, besides the pos. and neg. 
If you haven't noticed, an interesting thing to me at least, is to have batteries that can be "swapped" as easily as we do with a cordless drill. It seems you have put some of your efforts into producing a complete battery car with onboard charger. I'm sure there are many that like that set up, but have you considered making a series of packs with a common receptical. The recepticals could be used for a charging base as well as a receptical in a train.....(what I'm trying to come up with using the HF stuff)? I know it wont be crazy "Chinese" cheap, but there are many who are willing to pay for superior quality. I guess you have to decide if there would be a market. There are several right here that use "swap out" packs but for lack of something better, go with alligator clips, deans, tamaya, etc 
Don


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## dtetreault (Jan 23, 2008)

Don,
I have used the HF 18 volt batteries for a few years. I connect them with spade connectors direct to the battery and use a bridge rectifier so the polarity does not matter. I recharge them on my Firestorm 18v charger. Had to swap the neg & positive leads on the battery to match the Firestorm charger. Only get about 1 hour run time from each battery, but changing the batteries on takes a few seconds. I like this setup.

Dennis


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Don, 

The small third brass contact is the contact we use for the temperature thermostat. One end is welded to the negative side (side of the goose neck cell) of the battery and the other is soldered to the brass overlay lead coming down off the cap. On most DeWalt & B&D older models of battery-packs there is not a third connection for a thermostat, so when we designed the black connection cap that sits ontop of the goose neck cell we added this feature to help your charger tell when your battery-pack is fully charged. Don, all of our battery-packs come with any quick connector you want, Aristo, Deans, Tamiya or like Dennis stated; using a double ended spade connector will easily rectify this problem and make it easy for you to swap out your packs. 

Also, if anyone would like us to build them a cheap 18V NiCd battery-pack, 1300 - 1900mah with a quick connector for $20.00, that's not a problem. I'll put a section on our website called; "cheap battery-packs" for you to take a look. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

For those of you using the T type cordless drill battery here is a tip for you.


I made this and used it for 3 years.

I got this clamp at HF,












The pins for the jaws pusyh out with just a nail or screw the aprox size.




















The points may need to be smaller depending on which brand battery you use. 









What I did was painted the positive arm of the clamp red and the positive side of the battery with a red mark.

Thay way I was surer to get the polarity correct .


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Was wondering why I couldn't post pictures....finally figured I had to renew 1st class status







.
Here is pic of the milwaukee pack being "slaped" onto its home made receptical/ docking port


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Got any pic's on how you made that docking port?

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are some GREAT ideas here! 

More pictures please. 

Greg


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

We tried several variations....I mean this isn't rocket science , but we just shaped a block of wood using a table saw...a lot of trial and error until we got a nice fit and then installed stranded wire for the contacts. My friend who is a senior and not so agile anymore loves the set up. I had tried Deans connectors with him but his fingers struggled getting the connectors apart. Heck, I struggel with those little black connectors (can be seen at bottom of lower photo) we use for lighting our passenger cars. The observation dome just covers the pack on the amtrack.


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