# Pizza Pile Up - paging Vic



## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Well...if the link works...

http://s1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh605/Thinker102/

http://s1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh605/Thinker102/

In a way, this gets into the 'future of the hobby' discussions we have on this board now and again. Get rigth down to it, this hobby is not exactly cheap to get into anymore, and lots of folks that might be tempted to move past the Holidaze set around the tree are not just short on cash, but short on space to stick a G scale layout - indoors or out.

But...it is rare for somebody to jump straight from a holiday layout to a full basement or garage or half the backyard. Usually, they start smaller - much smaller - say a couple of starter sets (some of which are stil reasonably priced), a few R1 switches and a bit more track and the like. There have been no few number of people come by here either asking about how to build such a layout or showing the ones they have built. This is the type of person this layout design is aimed at. 

The assumption is this person has a few loops of R1 or maybe R2 track, a few switches and straights, and a 12 x 12 space to work in - spare bedroom or end of the garage size, plus a bit more money for additional track.

Most G scale layouts - starter and advanced both - tend to be simple loops. I decided to see if it was possible to go beyond that - to put a *long* stretch of mainline track in a small area without getting into too many scenery problems. The core of this, for the 'small' version involves three circles of R1 track and two 30 degree crossovers. The result is three spliced together loops fitting on an L shaped table with a footprint of 8.5 feet each way. (see the link, if it works). That is thirty six feet of mainline trackage, though the 30 degree crossovers and short piece of track between them might have to be put in tunnels. 

In a 12 x 12 room, this would leave narrow ailses - less than two feet wide to either side. I was able to get around this by 'tilting; the tables slightly in relation to the walls - about 30 degrees. This turned those narrow ailses into much wider spaces with very short 'chokepoints' less than two feet wide opening into them. This opens up another possibility...

...connecting this 'core' with an 'around the room loop' (duckunder or drawbridge type deal needed for the entry). Depending on the complexity of the interchange and exact amount of space available, this could make for better than 70 feet of mainline G scale track in a 12 x 12 space - or two separate loops. A wider radius is certainly possible for the outer loop. In most places the outer loop could be set on shelves as much as 16 inches wide - but probably no more than half that at the chokepoints. 

I didn't have enough extra R2 track to do it myself, but I believe the R2 core of this layout would fit in a space with a footprint of less than 10.5 by 10.5 feet. A space of 14 x 14 feet would probably be adequate, though there might be minor 'reach' issues with the centers of the tables. However, either single pieces of R1 track would have to be placed directly opposite the 30 degree crossovers on each loop, or very short pieces of straight track would have to be attached to the end of each crossover. (at various times, I've done both with my main layout).

Thoughts?


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

That's qiute a neat exercise for space saving "G" gauge running. Smaller everything. 0-4-0 locomotives and shorter cars. 

Thoughts......

I think if I had to down scale from the outdoor layout to a size you've shared and wanted to stay in modelrailroading, I'd sell most of my G gauge (keep some shelf queens) and build an "O" gauge layout. 

I know it's "heresy",







but Lionel and MTH make some mighty fine stuff. Not sure which I'd go with. 

Those are just my thoughts which may not be relevant as I'm still enjoying the large outdoor "G" gauge layout.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

YIKES! Kinda reminds me of the old pop song about the French horn, "You push the little valve down and the music goes round and round, and it comes out here." Instead, "You turn the throttle round and the train goes round and round, and it comes out where?" 

Fun stuff, 
David Meashey


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

http://s1254.photobucket.com/albums...; 

http://s1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh605/Thinker102/ 

OK now that the link works for me, interesting take on the pizza concept! I'd call this the Big Box Pizza as it reminds me of those long oversize pizza boxs used for parties.









Getting newbies interested with indoor G is a tough cookie, its hard for them to think outside of the box, the box being the conceptual baggage most of them bring from smaller scales like HO or N that I can only be happy running giant diesels or steam engines and those need huge curves. 

Now given that I'm *stark raving mad* I'd next try something else with this, namely try keeping the same plan but eliminate the cross overs and do an elevated over and under version, that way small sidings can be added for mines and spurs. Yes you'd get some steep grades but thats half the fun now isnt it? I did say I was mad now didnt I?









This in crossover or over/under form would also make for for a very nice starting point for a compact garden layout as well. 

Are you going to continue building this or is it a conceptual model only


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you going to continue building this or is it a conceptual model only 

IT is pretty much a conceptual model. If it I'd thought of it back then, I'd have likely gone with this design instead of my current one (using mostly R2 curves and moving the third loop a bit. Should I end up having only a 12 x 12 room for a layout in the future, its what I'd go with. 

I do find myself wondering if it might not be a good track plan for the sorts of portable layouts taken to conventios. 

Now given that I'm stark raving mad I'd next try something else with this, namely try keeping the same plan but eliminate the cross overs and do an elevated over and under version, that way small sidings can be added for mines and spurs. Yes you'd get some steep grades but thats half the fun now isnt it? I did say I was mad now didnt I? 

Ye Gods, that would be some steep grades! Even in R2 it would be some steep grades. 

Getting newbies interested with indoor G is a tough cookie, its hard for them to think outside of the box, the box being the conceptual baggage most of them bring from smaller scales like HO or N that I can only be happy running giant diesels or steam engines and those need huge curves. 


Like I said, this is oriented towards the guy who has a couple of starter sets, a bit of extra track, and a spare bedroom or garage corner or some such spacewise. Something he hasn't sunk all that much into yet. 

YIKES! Kinda reminds me of the old pop song about the French horn, "You push the little valve down and the music goes round and round, and it comes out here." Instead, "You turn the throttle round and the train goes round and round, and it comes out where?" 


I figure kids would get a real laugh out of trying to guess what tunnel the train would come out of - assuming you actually put a mountain over the crossovers. I actually broke out laughing just thinking about it 

But it would provide three distinct areas for different scenery - maybe a town on the one loop, and a mine or some such on one of the others.


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I've fantasized numerous times about doing a 12'x12' indoor layout, a steel mill themed layout with sharp curves, lgb ore cars and piko 0-6-0's for power. SOMEDAY


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Yo Vic...maybe you could work up a formal trackplan for this sometime? See ihow well this core and the 'around the room' loop fit in a 12 x 12 space track plan wise? 

If I'd had the track and the time, I would have done the full deal then, but I didn't...


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

I like it!. I've been thinking of something that I could set of for a family night at my daughters day care center.

The Gomez on my right shoulder say to replace the crossings with double slips and really create a headache

The Gomez on the left says to add a forth loop and two more crossings and then put a loco on each loop and start taking bets. 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

The Gomez on my right shoulder say to replace the crossings with double slips and really create a headache 

The Gomez on the left says to add a forth loop and two more crossings and then put a loco on each loop and start taking bets. 


Do either one of those, the adults are liable to get dizzy! 

But the kids will have a blast!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont know when i'll get to it, maybe next week sometime. Do you want me to try sketching it using R2 or R1 curves.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont know when i'll get to it, maybe next week sometime. Do you want me to try sketching it using R2 or R1 curves. 

Next week is fine. 

As to the curves...R1 is the most compact, but I do admit to a bit of curiosity as to just how much room would be required for R2 (my guess was 14 x 14, but I could be wrong). 

Maybe both, if it ain't too much to ask?


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By ThinkerT on 30 May 2012 04:36 PM 


But it would provide three distinct areas for different scenery - maybe a town on the one loop, and a mine or some such on one of the others. 

i think, this is the key to any good indoors layout.
(apart from using short rolling stock)

making a lot of mountains, to hide much of the ugly small radius curves.
making the mountains high and broad enough, that they divide the layout into a number of dioramas.
instead of the "spacey" impression outdoor layouts transmit, use the avayable materials for diversification.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

"Ugly small radius curves"? ....Heresy!!! ;-)


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

yes, "Ugly small radius curves". 
on my new layout i consequently eliminated all curves that have less than 4' radius... 
indoors we either have to stay with short locos and stumpy cars, or we have to close our eyes, when trains come round a bend. 
or do you like to see the cowcatcher of an annie hang out beside the rails?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would I need an Annie when I have a wonderful selection Porters, Stainz and Macks? 


Sure, if you want to run bigger items then youn should use wider turns, but just because a curve is tight doesnt make it ugly, especially if your stock is also appropriatly sized


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Korm - you now have R3 curves? 

I would make the argument that curves this tight might not be out of place on a logging or mining themed layout. Wern't Shay's designed in part to handle such tight curves? 

Likewise, something like this could work on an industrial layout - my possibly flawed understanding is that tight curves abounded in the narrow guage systems in at least some large industrial complexs. 

But mostly, as repeatedly stated, this is for the guy who wants to move past the holidaze level without busting the bank.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

OK heres the CAD mock up. While it looks like it works best with the R2s even though you need 2" make up sections at each side of the crossover, my experience with the R1s says that once everything is assembled you'll never notice thing are ever so slightly off, this track is very forgiving.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanx, Vic. I didn't notice any problems with the test layout. 

Assume the R1 version is in a 12x12 room, and the core was offset slightly in relation to ithe walls - would a guy be able to fit this core inside a round the room shelf loop - connect it with a switch off of one or another of the loops? 

I didn't have the track, time, or enough wood to manage this when I set up the test layout, though my measurments said it should be possible - all be it with a couple of tight squeezes (16 inches, maybe). 

Going by the dimensions you give, you could do the same with the R2 layout if the room was at least 14x14. 

That would come out to 76+ feet of mainline track for the R1 version in a 12 x12 space and over a hundred feet of mainline run for the R2 version in a 14x14 space.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By ThinkerT on 04 Jun 2012 08:44 PM 
Korm - you now have R3 curves? 

sorry - i made the standard mistake.
i mentioned, that i am eliminating all curves under 4' radius. but i meant all curves under 4' DIAMETER.

where on the last layout i had some curves, where the outer rail had the same curve, like the inner rails of R1 have, now i (nearly everywhere) use the outer R1 railcurve as inner rail of my curves.
so to say, instead of R0.8 curves i now use R1.2 curves. (or bigger, where possible).

i had to use greater curves, although still using stainzes.
instead of my former LGB and playmobil 1foot two aixle cars i am using now some 1'4" four aixle cars too.

and, Vic, don't get upset. i really do love your mini layouts. 
but most guys (specially in the US) do start out with the big howlers. and for them everything less than R2 does not look right for my eyes.

and for the tunnel thing, as some of you might remember from my plans, i am building straights ranging from 23' to 40' connected by narrow curves.
by hiding the curves in tunnels and behind trees the layout looks more spacious, than it is.


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## Bill C. (Jan 2, 2008)

Last summer I saw the excellent indoor large scale railway at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg and took note of the compact steel and pipe mill included on it. The footprint is probably no more that four feet on a side.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Last summer I saw the excellent indoor large scale railway at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg and took note of the compact steel and pipe mill included on it. The footprint is probably no more that four feet on a side. 


Hmmm...maybe there is hope then of my actually being able to squeeze a tiny refinery facade into a triangular space less than three feet to a side... (have to justify those tank cars somehow)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

4' x 4' for a refinery? thats as big as my whole pizza LOL


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I was asked off-forum if I could work the Pile-Up idea using the Aristo 32"D and 21"D track circles, here are the results 


















The top pic uses the 32"D track, the smaller basic layout requires cutting the curves at an angle to connect to the crossovers but I do think it would work fine as long as you watch the gauge. the larger uses 45 degree crossings and should only need 12" straights, a plus is that it only requires 2 circles to work


















This time the basic layout really doesn’t work due to the crossover connection point, maybe the crossing could be cut up to fit better but I doubt it. The larger once again works pretty well using just standard straight sections. I also added two other ideas that could work is a very small area, just for ideas sake.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic...you thinking about expanding your little pizza into something like this? 

Maybe a guy could use some of the little LGB 'make up' sections to balance it out better. I ended up picking up a pile of them, mostly to get the passing sidings to work right.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

No, just design studies


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Well...for Vic's latest set, the one in the top right is something like a old test layout I had set up for a long while years ago, only mine had R2 and R3 curves instead of...R0.8 (?). Were it not for 'reach' problems (this was before I knocked out part of a wall) I might have gone with it. 

The bottom left one also looks like it would have some serious potential if done in R1 or R2. I'f I'm reading it right, an R1 version would probably fit in about the same amount of space as my design, plus it would actually have straight track. The down side is you'd probably have to hide all three 90 degree crossoverss and the tracks between them, making for fairly short visible runs (except for the upper left).


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