# LGB 2001 Hand Car with DCC?



## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Has anyone had any success converting the hand cart to DCC - or is it generally too small? Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Is this the car with a guy on one end and a green box on the other? 

Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Yes, that's the one.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

a ho size decoder should work fine with that .....

or if your system suports 00 you could try it that way


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just stuck a small Zimo HO unit in a very small space, it was a MX642, but I think the newer version is a 644... 


In the picture below, see how the top back of the seat is hollow? That's where the decoder is









The space under the seat holds all the wires and connectors and a small capacitor: (all behind the blue tape)










Managed to tuck 4 small 1" speakers in the roof where they can't be seen:









So what I am saying, there's almost nothing too small to get a decoder and sound into!

Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the digitrax dh 123d will work fine too and is only like 20 bucks ...... if you want it to run flawless use a lenz gold with a power 3


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

We converted several of these handcars to DCC and DCC w. integrated custom sound, granted there is not much room for huge speakers, but it is very fun.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 27 Nov 2011 06:35 AM 
We converted several of these handcars to DCC and DCC w. integrated custom sound, granted there is not much room for huge speakers, but it is very fun.











I would certainly like to see a picture of one with integrated custom sound, a video will be nice.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Wow. Ok, so it is possible. I didn't think it was possible, and now you're saying there is even room for a decoder that also has sound and for speakers as well. But now I'm scratching my head. What in the world "sound" comes from a hand cart - is it a guy grunting loudly on each pump? And dare I even ask where the smoke unit goes?  

Seriously, anyone got any sound samples or a youtube video of one? Thanks.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Axel-

If you were faster I'd send you more cars to convert. Instead, now I'm thinking I'm going to start buying decoders and asking more questions to do them myself.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Or you make us your destination and bring a couple of conversions and we teach you. I don't know where you are located, but we do have customers that come buy and spend two days with us.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chata: 
Do you know the song "I am working on the railroad", that could possibly be the integrated custom sound.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Axel- 

I'm in Colorado, but I have a brother in Acton, MA. I'd love to swing by for training (no pun intended). I'm sure I can pick it up fast - I have a degree in Computer Science and I've designed some small electronics of my own in the past. 

Jeff


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I placed a zimo HO dcc decoder in the barrel on the 2001 handcar. I glued the barrel next to the motor box and ran the wires between the 2, plus I placed 2 leds for forward lights. I used a resistor between the led lights wired in series with heat shrink and placed this on the front of the handcar on the bottom of the frame. 

This was a non sound version, but for sound you would need a squeak in place of the chuff sound!!! Bicycle bell sound needed also. plus the working on the rr song.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Dan: how did route the wires from the barrel to track power? 

Chata: the most unobstrusive way to install a decoder in a hand car is to place the decoder on top of the track contact board inside the engine block and use double side tape to keep in place. You can use an LGB 55022 or an Massoth M decoder (clip the wings). I prefer the Massoth. 
First, desorder the motor leads from the track contact board (red and black wires), and them solder them on the decoder's motor pads, in lieu of the yellow and green (do not be shortened them there is just enough wire to reach the motor terminals). Next you need to shorten significantly the track leads on the decoder( white and brown) and then solder them on the track contact board using the same pads where the motor leads were connnected. When you fnish putting everything back together, the car would look exactly as did before the conversion, and the conversion is reversible. Adding lights is optional, I know nothing about smoke, and sound is not possible without trashing the car. 

Mohammed


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Why didn't I think about it







How clever - Massoth to the rescue (let's all chime in "Massoth, Massoth above all... Above all in the world")

Just for completion purposes, this is two of the alternatives from ZIMO, this or similar one is used in our installations and yes that one has also sound in there. They range from 28x10.5x4 down to 20x11x4 (all cm)









And this is the little non-sound brother:










Actually Mohamed, you can actually explain to us one thing:

What is it called on your website "Massoth-SUSI" as one of the features? If my aging memory serves me correct then SUSI was developed by DIETZ and never by Massoth,


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Is that a Massoth sound decoder, or just an ordinary HO motor only decoder? 

By the way, I have to tell the truth, the best small speakers I found (the 1" ones I used for example) were the Visatron speakers.... 

Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

With regard to driving an LGB Hand Cart, what exactly is the part number, price and physical size of the smallest decoder with sound? From Zimo, and Massoth / DIETZ?


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Axel- The smallest (non-sound) you're showing there is the MX631? That's 20.5 x 15.5 x 4mm. Smaller still would be the MX621 at 12 x 8.5 x 2.2mm... but perhaps you didn't show that because it's unusable for G-Scale as it's only 0.8A/1.5A peak/continunous power? Vs 1.2/2.5A for the MX631.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel: 

My post is a response to the question posed by Chata which was* " Has anyone had any success converting the hand cart to DCC - or is it generally too small? "*, and what I suggested to him is a clean, professional installation. 
I do not have to explain anything to you. As you posted above you *" have already converted several of these handcars to DCC and DCC w. integrated custom sound" *, mostly likely by *" placing a zimo HO dcc decoder in the barrel on the 2001 handcar"* as your technician Dan posted. It is still not clear how he got track power back to the barrel, can you explain?

P.S. Thank you for bringing attention to Massoth, catchy tune.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Chat, actually since we are only talking about the handcar, which will never pull anything .8A will actually do fine. A Buehler motor in basically idle draws .2 - .4A. Sorry I forgot to bring this in as well. Actually the 621 has found quite a following among the Z-scale community

MX621 = $26.95
MX648 = $84.95 (sound + DCC)
MX646 = $84.95 (sound + DCC)

and the big ones range from $178 - $245


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Axel: Does that include shipping and handling? can I make the purchase right here on the forum?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

How many thousands do you want









Looks like you have seen the light


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

*You two guys are ridiculous but entertaining nonetheless.* 

Thank you both for answering my questions. 
BTW. Check out this hand car mp3 sound effect I found! Sound is actually making sense to me on the hand car now. I looked over Greg's page on loading sounds to Zimo, it looks like a weird proprietary format. Are there decoders that take regular files like mp3 or raw? Maybe there is a tool to convert mp3s to Zimo format?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's normally an easy way to convert to the required format. One major reason they are proprietary is so people cannot "steal" someone else's sound files... it takes a lot of time and effort to make a great recording. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I can certainly appreciate the difficulty in recording the real sounds well. 

I read your page on Zimo DCC sound again Greg - did you reorganize your website? Anyway, it led me here... 


http://www.zimo.at/web2007/content/...htm#Stainz


The Zimo .zip has a bunch of folders with standard WAV files. For the Stainz, there are 16 sound effects and 16 more various engine loaded chuffs. Most are 11025Hz and 22050Hz 32-bit mono WAV files. And the .zpr file isn't even binary. It's not XML it's just a text file with some codes to tell the DCC what the file names are, how long they are and how to use them, LOOP=1, plus a big CV table. So... it would seem to me that you could easily replace or add sounds on your trains if you understood the .zpr well enough. Might even be kinda interesting to make a tool to edit the ZPR if one doesn't already exist?


Serious modeling aside, It'd be fun to make some custom sounds for the Hand Car or even other locos for use at club events or shows. How about F10- "(Conductor voice) Please keeps hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times".


I believe I've found a document talks all about how to make your own Zimo sound files (but it's German - and Google Translate is telling me the file is too large). http://www.zimo.at/web2007/pdf/sound/soundseminar.pdf


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cut the pdf into separate pages, then translate. Of course, Axel is the helpful reference for this. 

The link on my site was old, Zimo updated their site, and changed the link.... my site is updated now... 

Regards, Greg


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I installed a small Lenz decoder in my LGB 2001. It must have been an older one; it was red.

Here's a video of it on my indoor layout "accidentally" bumping into a dynamite car: Hand Car and Dynamite Car[/b]


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

To create a sound project you use the free software ZSP (Zimo Sound Programmer). WHile the documentation is a little sketchy, poeple typicaly get quickly the hand of it. Like any other sound board you need a so called J-tag loader to program the programmable interface. In short terms all of them called it a programmer. ZIMO offers two ways to do it:

A seperate programmer (was MXDECUP will be MXULF)
the new MX10 (central station) has a build in programmer

The software program ZSP offer a huge variety of programmable areas, inlcuding attaching sond foile for up and down sound of Pantographs for electrical engines. You can become as granular as you want to be, meaning do you want to reach top speed sound from standlstill in 3,4,5,6,7.... steps. Each step has a plataeu file and an acceleration and decelleration file. Files need to be created in such a way that you don't here that they are looping. Example on a Diesel engine if you press the start button you can get as the startup file the starting of a Dieselmotor (which you can synchronize with the smoke unit's strong output). THe sound has to go then into the idle sound file which will run in loop mode until you move the enigne. Of course precission is required to get tot he same amplitude so that you don't hear blips. Some professional providers, such as SoundDesign, spent over 100 hours in cutting up sound file and tuning engine behavior.

Download ZSP and start experiementing. Do to the various register modes it is basically impossible to convert sounds from one manufacturer to another.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Stupid piece of handcar trivia that I learned from a retired N&W roadmaster. Most of our models are inaccurate in that they depict the handcar operators standing and cranking with their arms. Charlie told me that when there was any significant distance to cover, the MOW crew would sit on the crank handles and pump with their legs like children on a seesaw. This way they rested their arms for doing the work they would have to do once they got to the maintenance site. 

It's another steam-era technique that has been lost to us, but it makes good sense. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Stan- Cute video. It'd funny that your hand cart guy keeps pumping the cart forward even after "the explosion"  

Dave- What you're saying about legs vs arms makes sense. I fear that the real reason the models aren't setup like that is because it would look so goofy - what's that guy *doing* there?! 

Axel- I have a half dozen different JTAG programmers, they're all for different chips though. The Zimo MXDECUP looks like an old fashioned serial to ISP dongle - requires a KeySpan to operate with a modern PC - no wonder it's canceled. Is the MXULF is out yet? Seems like it should be more like $40 not $175 though. I'm familiar with sound looping - and yes it's hard work to make it sound clean. Am I correct in saying that currently no one is currently offering a HandCart ZPR file (free or otherwise)? I'll give ZSP a try.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 27 Nov 2011 06:35 AM 
We converted several of these handcars to DCC and DCC w. integrated custom sound, granted there is not much room for huge speakers, but it is very fun.








Chata: What is wrong with replicating what Axel has done or using his custom sound files?


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

It's probably more fun to make my own sounds.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's what I was thinking too, it's really not that difficult and then you can have exactly what you want. 

As an aside, one problem with all the "european" sound decoders is that they rely on contributed sound files (and some that cost $$) as opposed to what we enjoy from Phoenix, SoundTraxx and QSI, a much richer library of sounds, and of course a much larger library of USA sounds. 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Chata86 on 30 Nov 2011 11:32 AM 
It's probably more fun to make my own sounds. Of course it would be more fun to make your own sounds, but since he has already done several times, it would not be any less fun if you were to use his stuff as a template.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't know if every is interested in fun projects such as "Here comes Santa Claus" or other funny song implementations. I think Chat is more looking at a realistic handcar implementation, and no I didn't have any sounds for that around. Our customers view these more as gimmicks than prototypes. 

A realistc handcar could be fun. We did other fun projects juch as the flight of the bumblebee for the eggliner. Real sound projects we seldomly do, there are people more calfied who spedn the 100s of hours to make it perfect.

No MXULF will not be that cheap, becuase now this thing is beefed up can you can test you engine already which you couldn't do with the DECUP and many more function, display and buttons on there. Just got a prototype without instructions however.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Does Phoenix, SoundTraxx or QSI have a realistic Hand Cart sound file? 

I don't know what the licensing for those sounds might be... but looking over  this Zimo sound programmer manual  it all seems very doable to bring sounds into Euro decoders from _wherever_ they might be sourced.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, although Phoenix has a nice galloping goose file, and the galloping goose one from Zimo might have some useful sounds, there is one of a chain drive, kind of a chain making a bit of a ringing sound on sprockets. 

That one would be good for the hand car. 

Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

If you look back at that sound sample I found on the net, it seems the hand car should mostly be making some wheels rolling on track noises (something you'd imagine most "locos" do but usually you can't hear over the steam and diesel generation). Plus some noises from the pump handle being a bit loose in its fitments - like a metal pipe squeaking around a bearing - high pitch / low pitch - repeat. Then for fun... maybe a bit of grunt when first starting - because I'd imagine that's a strain on the muscles. 

Handcars can be fun too! Take for example the Sonoma County Hand Car Regatta


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## allisonmyl (Dec 1, 2011)

I'm having the same problem. Thanks I drop by on this thread.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, can you "cut sounds out" of a full featured project? 

Might be able to assemble a good set of sounds from various places. 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Typically you use Adobe Sounbooth (or any other sound editing file) to take WAV or MP3 and cut sounds out store them into individual WAV files and then "assemble" the whole thing with ZSP.


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