# I'm Almost Sold...but Need Advice



## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm almost sold on the advantages of running Al track and battery power, thanks to Marty and many others. 
Now I'm trying to figure out what batteries and RC system to use. I know the info is out there somewhere, but I've spent the last hour looking at old posts and don't feel like I know much more than I did when I started. 
Sooo... I will be running sparky - mostly short trains, on some grades (up to ~2.5%) I figure if I want to occasionally run smoke I'll probably switch the engine temporarily over to track power. Mostly Shays, Climaxes, Connies, Annies. 
Do you have suggestions? Do you build your own packs? I have _some_ electronics experience, so if I have a drawing, I will hopefully be able to work it out. 

Thanks for your help! 
Matt


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

Matt 

I have been really happy with the RCS Brand of control. Dave Goodson (TOC) has been an invaluable resourse for my self installs of the product. Tony Walshman produces a bullet proof system that I can wholeheartedly endorse (for whatever that may be worth)....I usually buy my NiCad and NiMh from Dave as well....that said I have tossed a few together too! 

Give Dave a call, he is good to listen and offer suggestions! 425-823-3507...I've never called Au, but Tony is very good to respond to needed help or questions as well! 


If you have further, or I can help...feel free to contact me offline. 

cale


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I have the stuff. 
I can walk you through your own installs. 

E-mail me.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw the "almost sold" part and was thinking you was saleing your trains. 
All I can say is our club has so many different RC/ battery set ups (base on their own needs) ,but we all run together and have a great time. 
I don't know which way is best for you.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I prefer the AirWire system.


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I tried Airwire...and it cost me another $55 as they said I fried their board while I was hooking up my lights. RCS is much more forgiving. And cheaper. Plus RCS is better at controlling locos.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt 

Each of the major RC systems has its strengths. You did not say exactly what your needs were so it is difficult to give really sound and helpful advice. 

I cannot speak to Locolinc as I have not tried it myself ... 

Aristo is the low cost provider ... OVGRS members use it extensively when sound is not being installed or when very high amperage draw is required (diesel MUs for example) even if we mostly curse its ergonomics 

RCS is the favourite for general usage ... most ergonomic, great support, very nice loco control, good range and easy (relatively) installation of sound ... moderately priced but becomes competitive with Aristo when sound is considered 

Airwire is not commonly used here but is favoured where DCC outputs to control sound cards are desired ... it also has the greatest range and a few folks prefer its ergonomics to RCS; it is the most expensive base model but can be price competitive depending on the options to be added. 

There is no compelling reason why you could not use different installations in different locos ... most OVGRS members do just that. Although some would argue that having only one hand held controller for use with all locos will reduce costs generally (I would agree), for practical purposes an extra controller or two are needed and the extra cost goes for naught if the system does not meet the specific need. 

In summary ... once you state what features are most important to you, there is a system out there that will meet your need. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for your responses gents. 
In hindsight, I was a little vague about what I was asking, but you all touched on it. 
I am looking for your experience and opinions on what you have used, so I can know better what is available. 
Doug, your info was very helpful, thank you. I should have mentioned that I do plan to run sound - probably various brands, depending on the engine. Range would be an important item, along with cost, of course. 

I should probably start a different, more specific thread(s) to break up ideas on R/C systems and battery types/brands/sources. 

So far on batteries I'm leaning toward NiCad ~14.4 to 18V. Any opinions? 
As far as radio, I'm tending to look at RCS. 

Thanks again, 
Matt


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt, thanks for considering RCS. 
It would be very helpful if we knew what sorts of locos you will be installing the equipment in. 
RCS is not just a one size fits all on board R/C equipment. 
I make various Electronic Speed Controllers (ESC's) to suit different installation situations. 
They all work the same way but, some have higher current ratings than others, and some are a different shape. 

I have no vested interest in batteries one way or the other. 
What I can tell you is I only ever use Sub C NiCd cells where they will fit. 
12 cells = 14.4 volts which is ideal for most plastic steamers and small diesels like the GP-9 etc. 
16 cells = 19.2 volts which is ideal for larger diesel locos such as the SD-45 and most brass locos. 
They last longer in terms of the number of recharges available, compared to NiCd, and do not self discharge as fast as NiCd cells do. 
Other battery R/C users will have a different opinion.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham 

What I can tell you is I only ever use Sub C NiCd cells where they will fit. 
12 cells = 14.4 volts which is ideal for most plastic steamers and small diesels like the GP-9 etc. 
16 cells = 19.2 volts which is ideal for larger diesel locos such as the SD-45 and most brass locos. 
They last longer in terms of the number of recharges available, compared to NiCd, and do not self discharge as fast as NiCd cells do. 
Other battery R/C users will have a different opinion.



Hey Tony, 
What are you comparing to NiCd? 

So far I have: 
2 Bman Shays 
1 Bman Climax 
2 Annies 
1 Connie 
1 Bman 2-6-0 
1 AR 2-4-0 
1 AR 0-4-0 
2 AR Pacifics 

I think that's it. I figured I would start out by converting either a Climax or Shay first. If you could give me ideas, I'd be most grateful. 

Thanks, 
Matt


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So far on batteries I'm leaning toward NiCad ~14.4 to 18V. Any opinions? 

Matt, 

I like to use NiMH but charge them delicately on the NiCd setting. 19.2V won't drive an Aristo Pacific very quickly, and 14.4V is fine for a Bachmann 4-6-0. 

I finally got through to my gold member space... Take a look at 
http://gold.mylargescale.com/petethornton/ECLSTS-seminar/Battery%20&%20Radio%20Control2.pdf 
It's got most of the basics and wiring diagrams.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt, 
I would go with an Annie first. 
They are the least complicated to wire. 
You will need a suitable 2 way or 3 way connector between the loco and the tender for the motor connections. 
You will need a 4 way if you want to wire constant brightness reversing lights.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the link, Pete. I'll look at it ASAP. I don't know if I'll even convert the Pacifics, so that's not really an issue right now. 

Tony, after I posted, I figured you might say that about the Annies. Is the Mogul wired the same as the Annies? I should also have mentioned that they are actually Christmas Annies, so I wasn't sure I was going to convert them. I really don't want them to be my only loco to run battery on until I can convert more. Any engine I do convert I will wire w/DPDT for track power option. 

Thanks


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

The b-mann mogul has the electronics in the tender not the loco, so it is a bit different than the annie. Like Tony said I'd do an annie first till you get the hang of it. They are a cheaper and more prominent loco that if you were to damage, (not that you would but strsnge things do happen) could be more easily replaced than the shay or climax.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Matt Vogt on 07/23/2008 8:58 AM
Any engine I do convert I will wire w/DPDT for track power option. 





Matt - Just a comment. Many folks converting to battery power for the first time want to hedge their bets by wiring in that "Track/Battery" switch. I am betting that once you see the benefits of battery power, you will never use that switch. 

Also be aware, that not all battery power conversions require radio control. It depends how you run. But especially, if continuous running is your norm. An on-board locally controlled system works great and costs less. My Climax and Annies are quite happy running that way.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By paintjockey on 07/23/2008 9:41 AM
The b-mann mogul has the electronics in the tender not the loco, so it is a bit different than the annie. Like Tony said I'd do an annie first till you get the hang of it. They are a cheaper and more prominent loco that if you were to damage, (not that you would but strsnge things do happen) could be more easily replaced than the shay or climax. 





I understand your point, but like I said, the only Annies I have are Christmas editions, which are the least likely to be converted to battery. I think I'll probably jump in with both feet and do the Mogul, if it is the next easiest.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 07/23/2008 11:14 AM
Posted By Matt Vogt on 07/23/2008 8:58 AM 
Any engine I do convert I will wire w/DPDT for track power option. 





Matt - Just a comment. Many folks converting to battery power for the first time want to hedge their bets by wiring in that "Track/Battery" switch. I am betting that once you see the benefits of battery power, you will never use that switch. 

Also be aware, that not all battery power conversions require radio control. It depends how you run. But especially, if continuous running is your norm. An on-board locally controlled system works great and costs less. My Climax and Annies are quite happy running that way.




Welllll, what I meant was that I would _like_ to wire it that way./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif 
I plan to run trains about as often as I am working in the yard or have guests, and I really don't want to recharge after a couple hours. So I would really like to have the option to run continuously. I will also keep your suggestion of local control in mind. I hadn't thought of that lately. 

Thanks, 
Matt


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Matt, 
I have an American that is on the docket to do next...I've done an Annie and they are a great place to start...but I'd bet you'd be ok with the Mogul....the tender should have enough room to store it all....for longer running (if you use the RCS stuff) you can always tack on a trail car that would by-pass the batt in tender for extra time... 
cale


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Del about having the track-battery switch wired in. 
Doing so unnecessarily complicates the wiring. 
It has been my experience these last 20 years doing this stuff, that most people, once converted to battery power, only ever use battery power. 
Which Bachmann 2-6-0 is it you have? 
The small version is very light and will not pull much more than itself let alone a tender full of "stuff" unless you add an awful lot of weight. 
If it is the Spectrum version, no problem, except the tender is actually quite small and means you will need to be very choosy about the type of batteries you select to use. 
The Climax has the smallest tender casing and therfore is the most complicated of all to fit everything in. 
The Shay will be OK but you will need to make sure the trucks themselves are in perfect condition before you start work on them.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

If it is that complicated, I guess I will just plan to not convert the Annies so I can use them for long runs. 

The Mogul is the Spectrum version. Would the Connie be any easier? Does anyone have any experience converting these? 

Thanks


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt. 
I think it would be true to say almost every track powered loco ever made has been converted by at least one person to battery R/C. 

You might want to read up on how I do the Connie here: 
http://www.rcs-rc.com/PDF/Accessories/Instructions/Install_kits/TEN_LOC.pdf 

The same # TEN-LOC installation kit can also be used with the Annies.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Matt Vogt on 07/23/2008 7:51 PM
If it is that complicated, I guess I will just plan to not convert the Annies so I can use them for long runs. 
Thanks


The Annies have a huge tender with room for plenty of battery power. You can easily get 4-5 hours of run time with a 14.4V, 4000 mah battery pack. You have 2 Annies. That is 9-10 hours of runtime. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The Annies also have a huge boiler with a big metal weight, which is easily replaced with a pair of 7.2V battery packs plus some lead to make up the equivalent weight. My Xmas 4-6-0 (not a real Annie) runs quite cheerfully with no tender. 

The wiring diagram on p.28 of my .PDF shows my original arrangement, with an RCS throttle inside the boiler in front of the battery packs. The charging jacks are under the cab floor, along with the on/off switch. 

I used one of the track pick-up wires as an antenna for the RCS throttle. AsTony says, that solution works at quite a long range (100' on Rog's RGSEast in my experience.) It would be very easy to add a DPDT switch to support track power. 
I think I have a photo somewhere of the inside of the boiler...


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## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

Matt, 

Just a thought. Like you ain't had enough of those/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif I too was concerned about run time, but did not want track power. So my batteries are removable--I use a radio shack plug and a hatch in the top of my engine (admitedly a GP-38-2 diesel, but I would suspect a coal load would make a good removable hatch). I have 2 battery packs and can charge one and run on the other. My long term plan is inspired by Paul Burch's system of using the same battery packs in all engines (again diesels) and then just pop a charged one in whatever you want to run. Another plus is there is no charging jack on my engine--just take out the battery and plug it into the charger. Also good when a battery pack goes bad--don't have to take apart the engine and change the battery. 

Hope this helps. 

The other Matt


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## kcndrr (Jan 7, 2008)

Put removable battery packs in mine for quick change/swap. 
In my two Aristo C-16s I put hinges on tender to open up for quick plug battery swap and just pop the coal load off my Annie to change battery, would never know they are RC/Battery control. 
Use USA reefers and box cars that have removable roofs to do the same for my diesels, just quick plug to change batteries in the car. Engine will always be able to run, no down time for charging. All my systems are the same setup so use same battery systems. Have plenty of batteries (72 AA & 4 li-ion), they are cheaper than engines whether they be steam or diesel. My system can use both 16 AA or 1-4 Aristo Li-Ion batteries for up to 24 volt input.


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