# BIG Price increase of the Aristo Craft C-16



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi guys:

I just noticed that the mfg. direct sale price of the Aristo Craft C-16 has just risen to 500.00 from the previous price of approx. 360.00 !

http://www.aristocraft.com/Specials-Deals.html

Now that the Bachmann C-19 has a street price of 850.00 approx. does Aristo Craft now feel that the market value of their C-16 is 500.00 ?

These new prices are insane. 

What do folks think of this price increase of the Aristo C-16? 
Have other Aristo locomotives risen in the same manner or is it just the C-16 loco?


Norman


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

To most people in this hobby, they are just pricing them selfs out of business.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, we double the MSRP, BUT, because we give U HUGE discounts, Ur supposed to feel good about paying $150 more than U paid 
for the same thing last year.... Its the American way Norm !!! hehe There R a couple of pretty good deals on that page though, the 
Commonwealth trucks & the 3 axle motor blocks R as cheap as I've seen them in awhile...
Paul R...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah I saw that AND they've eliminated the Classic Cars for them to pull! If you want coal fired you can only get that movie prop yellow! 
I don't think Aristo knows what it is doing.... eliminating the cars the retooled loco can pull, that'll boost sales! 

Last year you got a caboose too! This year just the shaft! 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the C16 went up when everything else went up... right about the time they went direct. 

Greg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

A bargain at half the price! 

Honestly, I'm glad I can build most of the stuff i need. Otherwise I'd have to take up a less spendy hobby.... maybe tinplate? lol!


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

First thing that comes to mind is that if someone was really wanting the C16 they should have bought it when it was on sale for $323 with Free shipping. 
I mean really how much cheaper do you think it was going to get?
Now if your upset that the price has gone up and you were holding out for an even bigger price cut, I guess the term "you snooze you loose" comes to mind.

I don't want to offend anyone but we had this very same discussion about our hobby at the convention. 
People for some reason in our scale in the US think that everything should cost next to nothing, and then wonder why manufacturers are dropping out of this scale here in the US.
In Europe the hobby is thriving and for the most part everything is sold at or near msrp. I met several people visiting from Germany and Swizterland and they were amazed at how 
how cheap everything was selling for at the show. They couldn't understand why everything was not flying out the door, and were amazed to see people trying to haggle over a few bucks at these prices.

I get emails from different retailers advertising pricing on engines and rolling stock for HO and O scale and am amazed at the prices of their "Sale" merchandise.
One of the sale prices was almost $400 for an HO size engine!! Then there is O scale who's prices on average dwarf what like equipment costs in G scale.
Why is it that people in those scales don't seem to mind the prices, which are outrageous imo, and yet some people in our scale loose their minds at our prices?


The live steam crowd also comes to mind. I have been following the problems that some people are having with the new T1, which costs over $6000.
It seams that for the most part they accept the issues that pop up as part of the hobby a deal with them as best they can to resolve it.

In our side manufacturers are killed if their $200-600 engines are not absolutely perfect right out of the box.

It is all very confusing to me. 

Ron


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 22 Aug 2012 09:17 PM 
First thing that comes to mind is that if someone was really wanting the C16 they should have bought it when it was on sale for $323 with Free shipping. 
I mean really how much cheaper do you think it was going to get?
Now if your upset that the price has gone up and you were holding out for an even bigger price cut, I guess the term "you snooze you loose" comes to mind.

I don't want to offend anyone but we had this very same discussion about our hobby at the convention. 
People for some reason in our scale in the US think that everything should cost next to nothing, and then wonder why manufacturers are dropping out of this scale here in the US.
In Europe the hobby is thriving and for the most part everything is sold at or near msrp. I met several people visiting from Germany and Swizterland and they were amazed at how 
how cheap everything was selling for at the show. They couldn't understand why everything was not flying out the door, and were amazed to see people trying to haggle over a few bucks at these prices.

I get emails from different retailers advertising pricing on engines and rolling stock for HO and O scale and am amazed at the prices of their "Sale" merchandise.
One of the sale prices was almost $400 for an HO size engine!! Then there is O scale who's prices on average dwarf what like equipment costs in G scale.
Why is it that people in those scales don't seem to mind the prices, which are outrageous imo, and yet some people in our scale loose their minds at our prices?


The live steam crowd also comes to mind. I have been following the problems that some people are having with the new T1, which costs over $6000.
It seams that for the most part they accept the issues that pop up as part of the hobby a deal with them as best they can to resolve it.

In our side manufacturers are killed if their $200-600 engines are not absolutely perfect right out of the box.

It is all very confusing to me. 

Ron










As you are a dealer I get what you say because your sole motivation is to make more $ from MSRP and could care less about the quality. As a buyer if I spend 200 to 600 on a item and it dont work rite, well you bet the manufacture is going to here about it and if they cry well theres always the next guy to buy from. The jist so to speak is I dont need you, you need me. My way or the highway.
You dont seem to get We live in the greatest country in the world and if the manufactures dont like it they can sell there defective items to the Europeans that will gladly buy so you say defective items for MSRP.
Have you ever wondered why your class 66 locos on Ebay dont sell ? because there priced to high and people wont pay that. Maybe you can do some creative selling package and market them to Europe for MSRP.

Quote,

" I don't want to offend anyone but"

Jethro


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By Jethro J. on 24 Aug 2012 06:20 PM 

As you are a dealer I get what you say because your sole motivation is to make more $ from MSRP and could care less about the quality. As a buyer if I spend 200 to 600 on a item and it don't work rite, well you bet the manufacture is going to here about it and if they cry well theres always the next guy to buy from. The jist so to speak is I dont need you, you need me. My way or the highway.
You dont seem to get We live in the greatest country in the world and if the manufactures dont like it they can sell there defective items to the Europeans that will gladly buy so you say defective items for MSRP.
Have you ever wondered why your class 66 locos on Ebay dont sell ? because there priced to high and people wont pay that. Maybe you can do some creative selling package and market them to Europe for MSRP.

Quote,

" I don't want to offend anyone but"

Jethro

Yes I am a dealer but I specialize in track and switches and accessories, we sell items that no one else does, and we don't undercut ourselves on our products.
We feel that our product is very reasonably priced for the quality you receive. We don't sell cheap stuff, we sell quality, if you are looking for cheap then you are looking in the wrong place. 

And no you don't get what I am saying. What I was saying is that some people in our scale have unrealistic ideas of what things should cost.
Why is it the O scalers spend $437 on a Dash-9 and are happy, and yet a $350 Dash-9 in our scale is to expensive for some?
If the manufacturers (Of which I am NOT) cannot make a reasonable profit there will be no manufacturers in our scale anymore. 
The phrase you get what you pay for comes to mind. 
The main point of my post was that some people in our scale (not as much in O scale, Ho, Live Steam) for some reason expect much more than they are willing to pay for.

If you are looking for cheap then maybe this is the wrong hobby for you.


I would love to own a Ferrari but can't afford one so I drive my Nissan and am very happy with it.
Then again I would never expect it to run like a Ferrari but that's just me.


Ron

PS I am not a dealer for Aristo Craft trains, the class 66 engines are my own stock, they sell very well I have sold 4 of the 6 extras I had to date, but thanks for your concern.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 24 Aug 2012 07:59 PM 
What I was saying is that some people in our scale have unrealistic ideas of what things should cost. Why is it the O scalers spend $437 on a Dash-9 and are happy, and yet a $350 Dash-9 in our scale is to expensive for some?







IMO, that is not what is happening..in reality it is probably more like:

N scalers spend $119 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 
HO scalers spend $95 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 
O scalers spend $437 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy.
Large scalers spend $350 for a Dash-9, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some are happy, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 

I doubt there is a major difference between scales..as far as overall buyer opinions about prices are concerned..
different prices between scales sure..but that's irrelevant IMO..

Scot


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Are some folks just plain chea..... errr, frugal? You betcha! OTOH, many folks are just less affluent. Some folks never had barrels of disposable income, and others have been 'downsized' into lower income brackets. 

That said, A HUGE jump in prices - without a corresponding increase in quality or performance - ESPECIALLY in a soft economy, is a recipe for stuff NOT selling. Aristo has already dumped the rest of the old Delton line, and they've cut the available versions of this one.... maybe, just maybe, they are looking for an excuse to say, "Nobody wants them, anymore"?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 24 Aug 2012 10:31 PM 

N scalers spend $119 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 
HO scalers spend $95 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 
O scalers spend $437 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy.
Large scalers spend $350 for a Dash-9, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some are happy, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy. 




Looking at these prices, it looks more that the O-scale version is out of line price-wise.
I can see the N-scale version costing a bit more to manufacture than the HO version, smaller parts oare often more expensive and the N-scale volume is also much smaller than HO.
But then O-scale at more than four times the price of HO seems way out of line unless the O-scale loco includes sound or other goodies.

Knut


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Knut, 
It's more likely market size, you just can't put much O on a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood! 

The real difference to me is they get scale models and we get heavy toys with plastic gears.... 

John


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, plastic gears that strip or crack if you use them very much. 
I don't buy the expensive stuff because I simply don't have that kind of disposable income. In reality, this hobby is much too expensive for a person in my income category, and that includes the current prises of HO scale stuff. Gone are the days of Athearn engines at 35 dollars. A person of moderate income could afford that, but not 89 dollars and up for an engine that has a mechanism that is worth buying. Those old Athearn engines weren't very detailed, but they at least ran well. And details could be added if desired. I recently sold almost all of my HO scale stuff because I have no where to set it up, and I can at least play with the big trains outside in the garden. 
Trouble is, a person at my income level can't even afford a crappy running Bachmann engine, much less the better stuff. I would guess that the entry level RS-1 or the GP-9 probably run decently, but even those engines are more than I take home in a week. This is not a poor person's hobby, unless you can build most of the things that you'll be running. And since the middle class is shrinking due to job outsourcing and down-sizing, the pool of buyers who can afford the G gauge stuff is getting smaller. However, prices are still going up, for the normal business reasons, so that prices more people out of the market. At some point, manufacturers will no longer be able to sell enough items to stay in business, and they will go out of business. It's not likely to get any better any time soon.


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Amber: 

You are right on the money! 

The latest Bachmann C-19 is absolutely magnificent. Super detail and high quality metal gears drive with even a flywheel on the motor shaft. Bachmann is now producing the equivalent of the Accucraft brass models with the only difference being above the drive wheels as the loco and tender bodies are of plastic and not brass. 

So what about the rest of the modelling community? Must you now buy only the high price ultimate locos or there is now no loco available in G for you? The early Bachmann locos were junk and now the present Bachmann locos ( if built correctly at the factory ) are spectacular. So Bachmann has gone from one extreme of junk to super delux. Is there no midpoint in between? 

As to the term G , G is the first letter of what ever is the German word for large as coined by LGB which was of the scale 1:22.5 . So G stands for the scale of 1:22.5 . 

As to 1:24 scale, yes again Amber is right on the money. Today, Bachmann is concentrating on 1:20.3 scale so Aristo Craft and Hartland could have developed their own market using track of 1/4 inch narrower gauge to satify all the rivet counters out there. Then Gauge Two track in 1:24 scale represents standard gauge. Again Aristo Craft and USA Trains could have marketed standard gauge trains running on Gauge Two track being even larger than those of LGB for the American market. 

No doubt that the American mfgs. should have made a complete break from LGB European models and selected 1:24 scale with the proper dual gauge trackage to establish their own market. Lionel trains did their own AMERICAN thing. Lionel trains did not have some EUROPEAN firm, Marklin, set their measurement standards! 

But in the early days of LGB there really was no American narrow gauge market prior to Delton producing limited edition high priced brass models. No American mfg. wanted to take the risk of developing narrow and standard gauged locos on 1:24 scaled trackage. They blew it and largescale evolved into the multi scale mess which it is today. Fine with me. You simply pick the scale of train which you want to run on either the correct or incorrect scaled Gauge One trackage. 

The present solution is that offered by Bachmann trains. 1:20.3 scaled trains running on correctly scaled trackage. My observation is the physical size of 1:20.3 locos and rolling stock is too large. For other folks is it perfect. Hence, this is why I like 1:24 scale as the size of the locos and rolling stock is more reasonable in terms of minimum track radius and storage space requirements. The Accucraft 1:20.3 J&S coaches are wonderful. I will never buy one as the physical size is too large. 

As per most of us, I entered the largescale market when things were very afforadable. Actually the models were definitely underpriced when compared to product then offered in the other scales. Those days are now over and I believe the days of mass production large scale are now over. There is no way that the plastic loco mfgs. will sell the same quantity of units at these new higher prices and they had in the early days. Henry Ford would not have made a success of himself had he imported Rolls Royce Silver Ghosts to sell to crop farmers in the American midwest! You have to build what is affordable to the mass market place. 500.00 Aristo C-16 locos and 850.00 Bachmann C-19 locos ain't it, no matter how nice both of these locos are. 


Norman


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Everything in all scales has gotten unaffordable to many modelers, or they have had to really throttle back on what they buy. I moved up to G from HO as there was so much that tempted me, that it was very hard to settle on one road or a couple of roadnames and afford anything. We all know G is expensive, but the price for an Aristo GE Dash9 is a bargain when you actualy look at the costs of the tooling for such a huge locomotive, the cost of the plastic, which is driven by the price of oil. To bad my tight curves wont allow me to run them. Back to G scale costs. Since its going to cost me money, I choose the best and for me the best is and always will be the older LGB prior to the fall of Lehman. Motive power is a AB pair of SP Black Widow F units. My track is all LGB, frieght cars are mostly LGB with a USA caboose. Layout power control is LGB. All of it was bought second hand from collections at Watts in Zionsvillle. I could never afford what I have if bought new, espicaly at current track prices. Dave lets me know when he gets in a good batch of used LGB track. Maybe my way isnt the best, but it works for me, I dont have engines stripping gears or having other issues, they just keep running and running. Massoth and Train Li keep me supplied with needed wear parts like skates and brushes. The hardest cost for me to swallow is the price of building kits. Its a hobby, it comes after work, bills and family. Keep it fun above all, life is to short to get worked up over it. Mike


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I think there currently are some decent 1/32nd scale standard gauge freight cars on the market from Piko, the old MDC cars. They're about as close to scale matching gauge as it gets with standard gauge types and G gauge track. I'm not aware of any reasonably priced engines that are 1/32nd scale though. It would be nice to see an F-7 or GP-7 or RS-3 in 1/32nd scale at the same price point as the 1/29th scale ones. The USA Trains and Aristo engines of that type aren't any more expensive than the Weaver ) scale engines, 250 to 300 dollars in the magazine adds.


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

Posted By Scottychaos on 24 Aug 2012 10:31 PM 
Posted By BodsRailRoad on 24 Aug 2012 07:59 PM 
What I was saying is that some people in our scale have unrealistic ideas of what things should cost. Why is it the O scalers spend $437 on a Dash-9 and are happy, and yet a $350 Dash-9 in our scale is to expensive for some?







IMO, that is not what is happening..in reality it is probably more like:


O scalers spend $437 for a Dash-9, some are happy, some think the price is fine and reasonable, some think its too expensive and wont buy it, some cant afford it and are unhappy.

I doubt there is a major difference between scales..as far as overall buyer opinions about prices are concerned..
different prices between scales sure..but that's irrelevant IMO..

Scot




Not according to my three rail dealer friends, three railers will snap them up quickly and don't complain.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess inflation finally caught up with trains. Sad thing to say but I think it's time to bring the Manufacturing back to the good old USA and even with the price maybe things will get right. Later RJD


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi aceinspp: 

Exactly. At the new Aristo Craft pricing for the C-16, there is no longer any economic advantage for mfg the C-16 locos in China. 

Looking at comparable HLW locos at the retail pricing level, maybe Aristo Craft should now approach HLW to mfg. their C-16 locos in the USA ? 

Anyways, TrainWorld and other dealers still have the Aristo Craft C-16 available at the pre increase pricing level. So folks, if you want a C-16 at the old pricing levels this may be your last opportunity to act while old inventory still exists. 


Norman


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey gang, check out the Sept 1 sale from Aristo.... Last week the C-16 was on sale for $499.99 !!!!
This week its on sale for $279.99 !!!! What a deal... Think I'm gonna wait for next week's deal though, 
at $99.99, it'll be time to buy.... hehe
Paul R...


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Not really looking for a C-16, but at that price AND free shipping just to great a deal to pass up, picked up the yellow coal fired loco.

Wonder if those who were complaining about the price increase will actually buy one now, or wait for the price to go up again and then complain about it









Ron


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ron, 
Whatcha gonna pull with your 1:24 scale loco? They discontinued the cars, both freight and passenger... that's my complaint. 

Oh that and not much warning for those of us on tight budgets... 

John


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

trains are not food-
they are a luxury 
its simple, one votes with ones dollars 

and regardless, the market will determine things 

as someone over 50-i wel remember when trains were toys , more or less, and were priced as such -not as collectables or limited runs
and not of the same quality -seems they were still expensive, even at 1.50 for an n scale car, and 3.00 for an n scale heavywight in 1968

the market and hobby has changed ,thank goodness 

if you want fine wine you pay a lot, if you dont, theres plenty available 

we are in the scale with the fewest members, so there is less volume, and costs cannot be spread as easily, 
shipping has skyrocketed, as has the cost of oil based materials and metal -the exchange rate for the US is weak agains the euro, and we dont have luxury goods taxes
but we still offer a market-

in looing back and comparing prices to other goods, it seems trains may actually cost less adjusted for inflation and pricing

im sorry , if your budget doesnt allow you to collect, say, original european paintings by the masters, then you need to find another interest within your means, 
or 

shop carefully-imho there is a great amount of superb used g scale available 

a C-16 and C-19 are among my most favorite engines 
i had an older C-16 and wont give the maker a second chance because i want my toys to run without hassle 
the C-19, i might....have yet to know a bachman locomotive product that didnt take rehab to make it as it should be


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

i had an older C-16 and wont give the maker a second chance because i want my toys to run without hassle 
the C-19, i might....have yet to know a bachman locomotive product that didnt take rehab to make it as it should be 
Steve, I apologize if it sounds like I'm singling you out--it's not my intention. You just expressed a sentiment that I hear all too often from a number of folks who ask me for advice, and I think it warrants comment. 

We owe it to the manufacturers to judge each new product they bring out on an individual basis. As they say in the investment ads, "past performance is not indicative of future results." I've owned a C-16 of almost every production from the first Delton forward. The latest Aristo "prime mover" version is leaps and bounds more reliable than any of the past versions. (It's the only one still running of them, in fact.) It's a regular on my dad's Woodland Railway which includes some very steep grades (upwards of 8% in one spot). He's very happy with it. I was running it last month on a visit, and found it every bit as smooth and controllable as I would want from a locomotive. As for the Bachmann locos, they've likewise learned from their early transgressions. Since the K-27 came out, the mechanics in their locos have been very good, many having brass gears and ball bearing journals. I've got a 2-6-6-2 and Climax here awaiting cosmetic surgery that run like Swiss watches. Likewise, we've heard very little (if any) grousing about the running qualities of other recent additions to the line, such as the re-designed 2-4-2, 0-4-0, etc. 

I'm not trying to cheer-lead, but the reality is that companies get bad reputations that seem to continue to follow them regardless of recent history. Steve's comment, "...won't give the maker a second chance..." is precisely the sentiment that's going to kill them off regardless of the quality of their products. All too often we're once bitten, twice shy, or even more often, heard that someone got bit, so we stay away. I hear that all the time--"I've heard brand X is lousy," so even though they make the exact loco the person may want, they won't buy it on hearsay that stems from completely different locomotives. What have we as a hobby community gained promoting that sentiment? If there's a legitimate critique of a specific product, it's fair game. But let's be specific in that criticism. Blind condemnation of a brand is just as dangerous as blind praise. Every manufacturer has had its share of dogs and queens alike. 

Later, 

K


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

kevin its good to know this info 
what i read , here and other places, is what i tend to retain very generally, the first shay ( i have-and had to pony up for the nice replacement trucks-after trying to repair the bloody oringals) 
the connie and its issues 
the first climax and its wonky drive siezures 
the first K with something about the eccentric or the like 
had the first version of the Lyn-meh-ran well either on the straight or curve, cant recall , but not both
the 3 truck shay also seemed to have many threads about reliability here

nothing frustrates me more than a great looking engine that gives problems
so i play trains with...LGB ... 'cos like you ive got a full plate in terms of a job and stuff -time is precious


its bits and bobs of complaints that i retain-i CAN repair and rebuild almost anything, but i hate having to (option is fun, requirement is not) 
the first shay took me about 7 hours to rework the ball bearing pick ups(too tight) the cracked case and gears etc, this after having the loco running less than an hour
-i actually wrote to the president of bachmann -ancient history indeed, 


looking forward, then, to trying the new climax which ive always wanted 
and the c-19, and perhaps the c-16 too (always liked the loco but mine , again the old original delton seized/stripped after ten mintues) 

thanks for the update 
ill pay more attention to the new


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I wish I could spare the bucks to buy the C-16 right now at that sale price! I've been wanting one of these ever since they upgraded it, but life keeps throwing a monkeywrench into the works -- this time in the form of major dental work. Oh well. I just hope they keep making them long enough for me to eventually get one.


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