# 3D printing in large scale



## Jim Shutt (Jan 2, 2008)

Been giving some thought to taking some HO models that are not available in 1:29 and digitizing their dimensions, multiplying by three and having the unit printed on a 3D printer. Anyone have any experience with these critters?
Is it feasible? First project would be AMTRAK Superliner cars to go with the LGB Genesis.
Jim Shutt
San Antonio Garden Railroad Society


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

Jim, 

There is a thread that has a lot of 3D printing information in the "Tools" section. link: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...f/24/aft/128897/afv/topic/Default.aspx#313824 Take a look, it might help you with your question. Biggest limitation for the home hobbyist I see right now are the build size platforms. You would probably need to go to a professional printer service like "Shapeways.com" for larger items. That can be costly. 

 Good luck. 
Scott


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Plus you need to be mindfull of details.. 

Ya probably don't want things like ladders, steps or rivets to be 3 x's larger than HO items... 

They are too large...too thick now... 

Dirk


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I think cost is going to kill you on printing a whole car. From what I am reading, the printers that are within reach, cost-wise, are limited in size. About an 8 inch cube for printable area seems about average, and that at low resolution. Larger than that, and the price goes up drastically. Of course, there are services (like shapeways.com) that will print for you, but they charge by volume. Someone found a LS boxcar listed in their public models the other day, and I want to say it was in the $600 range.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The car Burl mentions is on Shapeway's site, a box car body with measurements on par with a 1:20 box car (5" x 4" x 17" or so). $682 for just the body. I don't know if the roof is elsewhere in their list of products. So, yeah, you _can_ do it. How deep are your pockets? 

Later, 

K


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Also..(speaking to everyone in general, not Jim specifically) 
if someone was planning to do this, dont start with an HO scale car as the template!  
start with drawings of the real car.. 
An HO scale model, scaled up, would make a very inferior large scale model IMO.. 
if you are going to do it at all, (which would take a fair amount of effort, planning and money,) 
you might as well do it the best way you possibly can.. 

Scot


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Models are rarely scale versions of the real thing. The larger the model the more possible it is to make a perfect scale replica. 
Smaller models have the small detail scaled up or entirely omitted for structural or manufacturing reasons. Perhaps so you can see the main detail better too. 
Rivets the size of golf balls and handrails three inches thick is normal in HO so as already stated always draft Large Scale 3D models from the original prototype's dimensions and not scaled up from smaller models unless you want a giant toy look. 

Andrew


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## Jim Shutt (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, guys. Lots of useful thoughts and resources here. I am still looking for somebody here in San Antonio who has a large machine that could produce a 1/29th car. I especially appreciate the suggestions about scaling down a full size dimensioned drawing rather than scaling up. As far as pockets go, I always whine to the potential source about our non-profit museum status. 
Jim Shutt 
SAGRES


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I am still looking for somebody here in San Antonio who has a large machine that could produce a 1/29th car. 
Jim, 
Check out Rodney's posts over on LSC. He seems to be making himself a machine with a large 'bed' for large scale work.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

With the quality of the print coming out of the cheaper machines and Shapeways, Im not too sure that it would pass for a good option of making a string of cars at their current costs and durability


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm considering it, but only with detail parts that cannot be found now. Some ideas that have been passed my way are Winterization Hatches, All Weather Windows, Drop Steps, Nose Conversions, etc. Any thoughts?


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

To help demonstrate cost of a large object, I used the model of the Mason Bogie Frame for the Master Class series. I redrew all of this to CAD a while back with the intention of cutting it out of acrylic on a laser. So I simply took that frame model and converted it so it could be submitted for printing. Keep in mind, this model was NOT designed with the intention of being printed. If I was to do that, I could refine many of the features.

Anyway, here is a link to the item so you can see for yourself. It is NOT for sale, nor do I intend to sell it as it is shown. It is simply to show what some of this stuff would cost. Tell me your thoughts, to much? Items like this be of interest?

https://www.shapeways.com/model/1514182/?li=aeTabs

Chris


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 
I think your link only works for you, when you are logged in.. 
everyone else gets "Sorry, you don't have permission to perform this action. " 

We cant see your frame.. 

Scot


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Let me try again then.

Go to Shapeways.com and do a search for Mb-frame and find the one by LeonaTimberCo, that is it


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 22 Nov 2013 08:49 AM 

........I redrew all of this to CAD a while back with the intention of cutting it out of acrylic on a laser. So I simply took that frame model and converted it so it could be submitted for printing. Keep in mind, this model was NOT designed with the intention of being printed. If I was to do that, I could refine many of the features.


Chris
Chris,

I was able to see your model, but I have a question regarding your "conversion"......maybe I'm just reading this wrong. I'm wondewring WHY you can't refine some of the features AFTER your conversion. I used to receive Catia models from vendors where we were making dies to produce their forgings. We did not have Catia sodtware in-house, but I had a reader to convert their Catia model to Mastercam. From there, I could refine features of the part. Just curious, that's all.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Gary,

What I simply meant is that it was designed to be cut on a laser and then assembled in layers. Therefore some of the things are compensated for such style of construction. If I was to actually model it for 3d print construction, it would be more accurate and more refined of a model. And probably not much more cost.

Chris


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 22 Nov 2013 10:08 AM 
Gary,

What I simply meant is that it was designed to be cut on a laser and then assembled in layers. Therefore some of the things are compensated for such style of construction. If I was to actually model it for 3d print construction, it would be more accurate and more refined of a model. And probably not much more cost.

Chris
Thanks Chris. That's what I was assuming.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 22 Nov 2013 10:08 AM 
Gary,

What I simply meant is that it was designed to be cut on a laser and then assembled in layers. Therefore some of the things are compensated for such style of construction. If I was to actually model it for 3d print construction, it would be more accurate and more refined of a model. And probably not much more cost.

Chris


Out of curiosity what is the printing estimate for this. I had purchased one of the MB laser cuttings for the project and was pretty cheap. I also have a set of the stainless steel laser cuttings for the MB also that were done in a limited basis. I guess someday I need to finish building mine.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

About $92 in white plastic. Difference is this one had the cylinders and mounts as part of it. Like I said, if there was enough interest to get mine going again I would spend the time and redo it.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Jim Shutt said:


> Been giving some thought to taking some HO models that are not available in 1:29 and digitizing their dimensions, multiplying by three and having the unit printed on a 3D printer. Anyone have any experience with these critters?
> Is it feasible? First project would be AMTRAK Superliner cars to go with the LGB Genesis.
> Jim Shutt
> San Antonio Garden Railroad Society


The trouble with upsizing smaller scales has been correctly noted by others. Something 10% oversize in HO,so you can see it, will be grossly oversized. The converse is equally true: an accurate 2x6 will be almost invisible in a much smaller scale. It's best to reverse engineer from plans, adjusting for the demands of scaling.


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## DetailsDetails (Jul 28, 2021)

What a difference a few years make.
It is still an engineering feat to design such a model. But compared to the cost of tens of thousands of dollars for a single mold... of which a car would have several, for each sub section.
Resin printers for details and PET or something like that plastic for the larger structures.
It's still hundreds of hours of CAD work though. Not for the faint of heart.
Give it another ten years and 3d scanners and computing power will be affordable enough to scan a HO car. Upsize it in CAD and hit print.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

DetailsDetails said:


> What a difference a few years make.


Few? That was a 2013 thread. But you are right - things are very different. Seems like everyone is doing it! My local library has a printer I can borrow - free.

There was a nice post or two recently from a guy (Jack?) who did 3D printing and wondered whether to get into it as a business. I wondered whether there is enough demand for single items - most 'repair parts' are now drawn in CAD and available on Thingverse or Shapeways so you can make or have made your own parts.

David Leech has done some experimenting with 3D printing long objects in one piece by allowing the printer to operate over a larger Z axis. His 3D coaches look like a very interesting and desirable project, if they hold up in sunshine. There are many 'products' that could sell well like that: variants on the basic theme. We still don't have a decent narrow gauge coach between the huge Accucraft Fn3 (1:20) and the squashed LGB and Bachmann G scale (1:22.5).

Just my thoughts of the moment.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
As I showed a little while ago, I 'think' that I have found the best filament for me to print in.
It's a PETG that held up well is the sun in what I consider very hot conditions.
The softened one was a 'heat resistant' PLA, that turned out to be not very resistant!!!!
Now I have to rebuild the printer as it was showing wear and tear form over the years of long prints.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada




  








hot pla2.jpg




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David Leech


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hot pla1.jpg




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David Leech


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Jun 21, 2021


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

David,

Thank you for sharing your long print trials. I have seen a conveyor "belt" style printer that was introduced to the market a little while ago that lets you print as long as you want in the Z direction (on this printer the Z plane is the flat plane, typically oriented as the Y direction on a standard printer). Creality's CR30 Belt 3D Printer, CR-30 3DPrintMill US/AU/UK FREE SHIPPING – Creality3D Store® Official Store for Creality 3D Printers and Accessories

Is this similar to what you have done on your printer? I do plan to, eventually whenever the time permits, get into making some custom rolling stock or locomotives and the long printing as one piece would be a help over needing to epoxy several parts together.

-Mike


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## DetailsDetails (Jul 28, 2021)

David,
You are giving me hope. I ordered some PETG to make some parts I cant get otherwise 
Are you using the slowest settings?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

MGates said:


> David,
> 
> Thank you for sharing your long print trials. I have seen a conveyor "belt" style printer that was introduced to the market a little while ago that lets you print as long as you want in the Z direction (on this printer the Z plane is the flat plane, typically oriented as the Y direction on a standard printer). Creality's CR30 Belt 3D Printer, CR-30 3DPrintMill US/AU/UK FREE SHIPPING – Creality3D Store® Official Store for Creality 3D Printers and Accessories
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,
Yes the conveyor 'looks' like it might be the answer, although with filaments like PETG or ABS you need a heated bed, and I'm not sure how good they are with a conveyor sliding across the top, but I'm sure that can be worked out.
When I started, no one had thought of that, so I just increased the Z axis on my CR-10 and then put the X and Y on a gantry so that the build platform could be stationary.
I am still making modifications and changes to make it better, but will probably never get to perfection!!
Cheers,
David


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

DetailsDetails said:


> David,
> You are giving me hope. I ordered some PETG to make some parts I cant get otherwise
> Are you using the slowest settings?


Details,
Every part and every printer is different.
I'm sure, as I did, if you search the internet you will get a lot of good ideas for basic settings.
I actually found that slow is not really better, and most PETG I print at 3200.
Mainly I print without the cooling fan on, UNLESS the surface area becomes small and then it is essential. The smaller the area, the more fan.
I will also use the fan for top surfaces.
If I over extrude, especially on the first layers, I find excess filament sticking to the nozzle, which will then start to make a mess by picking up the previous layer so be careful and watch the first few layers to make sure it stays clean.
I would just start with a part you know prints, and just test and test and test, until you get it right, BUT ONLY CHANGE ONE SETTING AT A TIME, otherwise you won't know if it helped or not.
I think that I went through a couple of Kgs of filament before I found the best settings for that part!
Have fun and don't get frustrated.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

DetailsDetails said:


> David,
> You are giving me hope. I ordered some PETG to make some parts I cant get otherwise


Details,
I meant to mention that when I first tried PETG some 4 years ago, the issue was that paint would not stick to it, so I gave up trying it.
Now there is 3D GLOOP for PETG.
This chemically softens the surface so that it helps with smoothing, but also makes a surface that accepts paint with no problem.
Can also be used as an adhesive.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

By experience, cost and quality of the printed model are the biggest factors. Details and detail parts will be large, crude and clunky also some of the tolerances to make HO scale items won't work. Cherry pick what you can upscale and what items need to be adapted to suit your modelling needs plus design your own parts. Builders plans and pictures are great aids.


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