# To Feed or Not to Feed



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Let me preface this by saying I don't push electrons through the rails, having converted to batteries very early in the game and never looked back. When we were running track power, it was thought sufficient just to string some generic speaker wire from your power supply and hook it up to one spot on your track. No one worried about feeders, we didn't have the rail clamps we have today, etc. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that process today, but at the same time, it worked very well for the four or five years we were running track power, so you can't argue with (short term) success.

Having said that, there seems to be quite the range of advice today on how to "properly" feed power to your railroad, ranging from something similar to what I used to use to the "brick outhouse" approach. Obviously each of these techniques seems to work well for the people doing them, or they'd be doing something different--"if it works, don't fix it."


So, my question is "what works, and why?"

1) What are you doing to feed power to your track?

2) What are the limitations you've encountered (if any?)

3) What are the environmental factors that led you to make your choices? Were there geographical considerations (salt air vs. dry climate, etc.) or physical choices such as rail material, length of the track, or the types of trains you typically run that shaped your decisions?


Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Several things should be considered first. I could answer just for my railroad, but I think it's more helpful to give a "formula" or "rules of thumb" that can help anyone. 

1. Track 
The metal of the track is a small consideration, in terms of conductivity. You will want slightly more feeders for stainless rail than other metals. This is not really as big a deal as people will make out. 

Joiners are much more of a factor. How are the rail sections joined. Best conductivity is soldered jumpers. Next best is QUALITY rail clamps. Split Jaw, Hillman, and similar designs. Next best is LGB with grease in them. Worst is the stock USAT or Aristo joiners, since there is very little contact and dirt can enter easily. Don't be fooled by the screws, there is very little contact between the screw head and the oval slot in the joiner... and the screws loosen. 

So to summarize, more feeders if you have SS rail or less conductive joining techniques, or many joiners. 


2. Trains you will run 
The more load a motor experiences, the more current it draws. So heavier trains, more locos in a train, more trains on the track at once. 

Rolling resistance and grades will require more current. 

Summary: more of everything will need more power delivered to the rails. 

3. Environment 
Do you have heavily acidic or alkaline soil or ballast? How about the water that get's on the rails (rain and irrigation). What about salt air and/or humidity. 

All of these factors can require more physically robust wiring/power connectors, or more corrosion resistance. 

So... how to feed power? 

Soldering directly to the rails would be best IF you don't have corrosion problems and can accomplish this. I prefer the heavy duty rail clamps designed to use a large gauge wire. You can also solder a terminal ring to the wire and put it under the screw head of a rail clamp, but LESS is more... fewer types of metal and fewer connections for the electrons is better. Remember a terminal means wire >>> solder >>> terminal >>> screw head >>> clamp >> rail ... the more "connections" the more places to lose power. 

Of course if you are running very few trains, no grades, brass rail and have jumpers, you can probably feed power every 50 feet or greater with 16 gauge wire. 

In my case I have the worst environment, high current and stainless rail. I use 10 gauge wire, each feeder every 30 feet and home run to the power supply which is centrally located on the layout to minimize wire length. 

My environment is 1 mile from the ocean, high mineral content in the water, high current, steep grades. 

I basically ALWAYS recommend "overbuilding" the wiring, go up a larger gauge of wire. 

I have found that stranded wire, due to the much larger surface area, is much more subject to corrosion, so I recommend solid wire in high current or harsh environments, actually in general, since you can get it cheaper than stranded. 

So, I recommend going solid, and using the "Saved money" to go "up" one size in gauge. 

My experience is that people are often loath to re-wire the layout, so do it right the first time is advice that people appreciate... the people that follow this advice are always happy, I can tell you from 10 years of giving advice and getting feedback. 

Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

well, i'm less cientific than greg. 
using mostly short (1') lengths of track, while building i put a feeder (either soldered or screwed - LGB-style) somewhere. 
then i let a loco run. 
where it stops, i put another feeder. 
later on, if somewhere no electricity gets to the rails, i often just shove a provisional feeder or jumper between rail and tieweb (any piece of wire, sometimes even solderingwire) 
in many cases, these provisional feeders/jumpers were taken off, when i dismantled the layout years later. 

my trains run where and how i want. why should i bother to put much energy into making something perfect, that doesn't work better? 
(this question was rhetorical. i don't fish for any lengthy reasonings, why i am wrong.)


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

1) What are you doing to feed power to your track?

I feed my track using 12gauge (I think that's what it was!) stranded wire from the house where I keep my DCC central station, through conduit wherever I could. I have two connections to the track--one on the original layout and added one a year or so again when I expanded the layout but it wasn't really necessary. I have no measureable voltage loss--shows ~22.5V everywhere I check it, using an RMS meter over a length of about 250' of LGB track. Most of my track and all the new layout area was built using 3m long LGB flex rail and clamps. There are a couple of areas on the original layout where I still have the LGB connectors only and if they give me trouble I'll take them off and put clamps on. The wire from the house is connected to the track using railclamps (Hillman). 

2) What are the limitations you've encountered (if any?) 

The only issues I've ever had were on the old layout that I built originally for live steam, and wasn't aware of things like grease or clamps. In those areas I've been replacing them with clamps if they give trouble from expansion/contraction etc. I've had no issues with track cleaning...I have an LGB track cleaner that I send around while I clean up sticks, debris etc that would have to be done anyway. By the time I'm done cleaning up the track is clean and ready to roll. It isn't necessary to use the track cleaner every time anyway...only if it's been a month or so since I last ran. I actually like going around the track because it keeps me in touch with any potential problems (ie. plants encroaching etc) that could cause problems. 

3) What are the environmental factors that led you to make your choices? Were there geographical considerations (salt air vs. dry climate, etc.) or physical choices such as rail material, length of the track, or the types of trains you typically run that shaped your decisions 

I live less than a mile from the ocean, so lots of salty air. We get tons of rain, freezing temperatures and snow, fairly mild summers. I don't think SS track was available when I started, and I actually like the look of weathered brass so that's why I stuck with it. Brass is nice to work with too, soft, easy to drill, cut etc. I really like the long pieces of flex rail...in fact bending track is one of my favourite parts of the hobby. I purposely kept my grades as flat as possible since I also run some live steam...max grade about 2.5% but there is a cut-off for live steamers to avoid them. My locos are almost all LGB, so very little current demand and I've never hit the 5A limit of my MTSIII system. My trains would be running into each other before that happened, as most of the LGB engines only draw .5-1A each, and my trains are relatively short because I model the Swiss narrow gauge RhB. I wanted to keep wiring to a minimum which is another reason I went DCC...the track is a big power bus that can feed all my accessories and switches so that also helps. I really like being able to put the plug in the wall and be running immediately with no worries about power. In fact my biggest problem is remembering to charge the batteries for my Massoth wireless handhelds! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Korm, did you mention that your layout is completely indoors? 

That makes a huge difference on what you can do and can "get away with". 

My comments were all directed at outside only... 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Greg, no, i did not mention that. - because the only difference between my actual indoors and the former outdoors layouts, that i had, is a longer cable to the transformer and some weeding outdoors. 

regards, korm 
edit, that is not true. three layouts back, there was another difference. the whole outdoors-layout was powered by a 12V car battery.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Uhh... I will take issue with your advice being applied to an outdoor layout. 

Quote: "later on, if somewhere no electricity gets to the rails, i often just shove a provisional feeder or jumper between rail and tieweb (any piece of wire, sometimes even solderingwire) " 

I cannot agree with that philosophy being recommended to a beginner, or being a good idea outside. Outside this has to be very unreliable, and I truly question this indoors.

Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Greg, for once, try not to be a Greg. 

the question was not from a beginner, but from a moderator. and the question was, what we do, not, what we recommend. 

end of this thread for me.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in 2000 when I had by track powered SCLCo, I ran Malibu 12 ga. 2-conductor cable under the track and ran feeders from it to every section that didn't have the rails soldered together (the ones that were left loose every few sections for expansion/contraction). The only conductivity issue I ever had was when water seeped in through the insulation tape over a splice, oxidized the crap out of the copper conductor (actually turned it blue and ate most of it away) and created a high-resistance connection. Loco would run fine until it hit that section, then slow waaaaayyyyyyy down until it hit the next section. Complicating matters was the fact that the affected section was a reversing loop. Took me a while to track that one down. Replacing the bad conductor and insulating with silicon goo instead of tape took care of it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dang Dwight, where were you when I was trying to get that very example over to the other "wiring" thread.







I got nice blue "powder" too... last time I used fine stranded wire where water could get into the end or connection. 

The landscaping guys now use silicon filled wire nuts, or even better a little bag of 2 part epoxy by 3m... looks ugly but completely encapsulates the connection. I was amazed at how far water went "down" the jacket, like 4 inches or so until I got to copper I could solder to again. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Another option for keeping out moisture is Denso paste or Denso tape. It's a waxy kind of material used to wrap underground parts such as watermain valves, fittings etc. It should be available at industrial watermain suppliers. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The problem is trying to wrap a small diameter and irregular surface. One little gap and the water seems to get in. I've given up on tapes and shrink tube and use silicon sealer, but the problem with moisture getting between the copper strands remains. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Please keep your comments _specific to what works for you._ Refrain from commenting on others' techniques, because--obviously--if it works for them, it's okay for their purposes, and that's specifically what I'm trying to draw out--what works for whom in which environments. Let the reader make the determination for themselves whether the techniques discussed would be appropriate for their environment. I think we all agree that the "brick outhouse" approach to things would cover the most bases, but there's a reason most outhouses are wood. 

Later, 

K


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

OK on my simple track power loop with two spurs using brass sectional track, I have two feeders, one at 3 o'clock and one at 9 o'clock. The feeder wires are the type at Home Depot for low voltage lighting, comes in 50 ft rolls for around $15 (?) the most economical I have found. Yes it is stranded wire. I run it from the power supply underground in PVC conduit. Coming out of conduit I use the gray compound found in the outdoor electrical section to plug conduit where wires exit. I typically attach to rails with rail clamps with the larger screw, using soldered on ring terminals. I solder outside with either Harbor Freight butane torch or HD version. Then I cover all exposed connections, attachments, etc with Liquid Electrical Tape. Two coats. This black glop seems to do well in protecting the wires from corrosion and water intrusion into and under the insulation. I find the track problem areas that do show up are easily found by my single motor block locos such as a Mack or Lil Critter. They will stutter. Most all two block or two truck pickup locos do fine. Most times it is just oxidation on the track top, cleaned with drywall sander and 400 wet dry. The track connectors are a mix of LGB sliders and split jaw clamps. If there is a problem not fixed by the sander, I wiggle the track (inevitably has LGB slide on connectors) and it goes away. That signals me to take the joint apart, polish with my Dremel wire wheel, regrease and re assemble. Does not happen too often, tho. The PITA of removing the LGB connectors is why I do not yet have all robust rail clamps. 

Regards

Jerry


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## tom p (Jan 30, 2009)

When I installed my track, I purchased 100 12g extention cords. I attached 16g feeders every 20 ft using slide in connectors dipped in liquid tape. buried under pressure treat sub base for track. connected to track befor and after each switch, and every 40 ft. with SP connectors that were dabbed with the liquid tape. I have 3 loops with 15 amps on each. Never a problem.
But additonal note. Most of my buildings are solar lit. Soft white chritmas strings($2-3 after Christmas) remove resistors and connect to solar power supply from Harbor freight security light($17) will light 8-10 buildings. I also purchased a 12 v solar from All electronics this with a cheap motorcycle battery will easily operate the switches. Going battery, but must take care of other electrical needs also so as to eliminate power on the tracks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gotcha Kevin, it's important then for people to note their environment, especially if it's in a house!!! 

It would really help to specify the state and if not too personal the city. 

I'm in Coastal North San Diego County 

Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Here in Nebraska I used the 12 ga Malibu wire out to the layout and soldered it to the track at one point. One feeder runs from it to the other side of the loop. I have SVRR N.S. code 250 rail. I used the brass SVRR rail clamps and a few of their sliders. The Aristo track cleaning car that I put the green 3M pad on the bottom cleans my track okay. if I've been running live steam I go around with a pad that is on a old shovel handle to clean the live steam gunk off better. I still mostly run battery power though, just have a few track power locos. Been using the MTH Hudson quite a bit, it seems to run real smooth on track that is not all that clean.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I've given up on tapes and shrink tube and use silicon sealer, but the problem with moisture getting between the copper strands remains.I used silicon sealer, then shrink tube over the top of that. The entire area of exposed conductor/splice was completely covered with the sealer all the way around, as was each end of the insulating jacket. For me, that sealed it up against water and I never had another problem.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 07 Feb 2013 10:41 AM 
Let me preface this by saying I don't push electrons through the rails, having converted to batteries very early in the game and never looked back. When we were running track power, it was thought sufficient just to string some generic speaker wire from your power supply and hook it up to one spot on your track. No one worried about feeders, we didn't have the rail clamps we have today, etc. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that process today, but at the same time, it worked very well for the four or five years we were running track power, so you can't argue with (short term) success.

Having said that, there seems to be quite the range of advice today on how to "properly" feed power to your railroad, ranging from something similar to what I used to use to the "brick outhouse" approach. Obviously each of these techniques seems to work well for the people doing them, or they'd be doing something different--"if it works, don't fix it."


So, my question is "what works, and why?"

1) What are you doing to feed power to your track?

2) What are the limitations you've encountered (if any?)

3) What are the environmental factors that led you to make your choices? Were there geographical considerations (salt air vs. dry climate, etc.) or physical choices such as rail material, length of the track, or the types of trains you typically run that shaped your decisions?


Later,

K


I run 23 blocks with a common ground. Three A/C TEs fed by three Meanwell 24V, 12.5 amp power supplies through a control panel. Any TE can access any block. Three reversers are built right into the panel as is a digital voltmeter that monitors any of the three outputs. Other switches toggle groups of turnouts..., as many as 20 at once. It's about 600 feet ofl brass rail with soldered jumper cables. I live about 15 miles from the Pacific Pond and the railroad gets watered three times daily with very HARD water.

This is all on a cart that rolls into the garage. Two 16-gauge, 24-conductor cables of approximately 20-25 feet feed the power to a weatherproof box on the railroad through two 24-pin mil-spec connectors. These have waterproof covers when not in use get to the rails and accessories. A 12 gauge 50 foot extension plugs in on the porch and I put a carpet runner over it where it crosses the patio during open houses. The 48 pins = 23 blocks + 21 turnouts, + 2 common grounds, + accessories). Once to the weatherproof box, rails are fed by 14 gauge Malibu wire and accessories are fed with 16 gauge all buried directly in the ground without conduit. Most lies under the ballast. 

I am limited by the number of cables I run. But I am also limited by dew point and the trains usually run like crap after dark. This is largely because the rail sits in moist soil and granite ballast that has a high iron content. I think that when the dew point drops, much of the current is siphoned off, though I never really noticed the ammeter go up substantially. I have put an ohmmeter between the rails and watch the resistance between the rails fall as night comes on.

When I purchased it was either aluminum or brass. I couldn't solder to aluminum so it was a no brainer. I would still use brass.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By East Broad Top on 07 Feb 2013 04:40 PM 
I think we all agree that the "brick outhouse" approach to things would cover the most bases, but there's a reason most outhouses are wood. 

Later, 

K 

Now you got me curious.....why wood?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I think wood is better than brick or metal especially for where you sit as I would not want to sit on wood or metal in the Hot midwest or cold northeast/Alaska. 

Wood is an insulator and adapts to your body heat fast, metal and brick retain heat/cold and either you would be burnt upon sitting, or stuck until spring!!


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard Wood made it easier to move when the hole filled up 

Tommy 
Rio Gracie


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

But wood causes splinters......have you ever heard "built like a 'wood' $hit house" of course not. Wood probably cause it was the cheapest, fastest way to get some privy.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I have shown this thread to several people and most of them seem to be mystified.... All of them use track power and are 32mm and 45mm users outside. Feeding the track at 24Volts we have the following array of systems: 

1: Exterior unshielded German Silver cable (64 0.1) laid underneath the track and tapped off to power it at specific points. (45mm) 
2: RG58 Coaxial cable fed from a central point and star radiating to the track -connections made by BNC crimps. (45mm) 
3: Domestic PVC wall buried grade lighting cable (Brown is Positive Blue is Negative) rigged as two "Ring Mains" with taps to the track. (32mm) 
4. Strips of Copper roofing bonded to the wood work with pitch and the connections to the Copper made by screwing brass screws through the roofing felt "ballast" through to the Copper beneath. Strips of Copper roofing are joined together with roofing Lead solder. (Yes he *is* a roofing contracter!) (45mm) 

I don't use track power at all -all my locos are self powered. But if this was a task that I had to do then I would opt for two "Ring Mains" and shielded German Silver cable of around (32 0.2) and use "Chocolate block" screw connectors. 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, I know you are a very intelligent person, so I hope you don't mind responding to some technical questions. 

You say "we have the following array of systems" , i.e. you are personally represented somewhere or are part of the group. 

1. can you give the price per foot/meter/furlong for 64 strand 0.1 (I assume mm) German Silver (please confirm that you mean the variant that is the same as Nickel Silver)... there are variants of this wire here. 

2. the center conductor of RG58 wire is usually between 17 and 20 gauge, which is normally way too lightweight for any significant number of locos, current. What is the center conductor gauge of the RG-58 your "associates" are using? 

3. Could you give the gauge of the wire in this one? (Since you live in a 220-240 volt country, often house wiring carries half the amperage here in the 110v world) 

I understand you don't run track power at all, but would you mind getting this information so we can understand the limitations if any of this (apparent) list of recommendations. 

I'm likewise "mystified" by several of these "recommendations". 

Regards, Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

1 To quote the Gentleman from Loughborough: "Buggered if I know -it is just the scrap ends of the reel. I dig it out of the skip and put it in the boot of the the car". 
2 To quote the Gentleman from the BBC: "I have to admit I have never done a drop test on the cable -but I reckon that the core and sheath are good for about 5 Amperes stringing both together. I use one length for Positive and another for negative. It gets trampled on and they throw it away by the reel". 
3 Well this one I can tell you without even thinking as I have just finished wiring a bathroom - two conductors of 2.5mm diameter with a bare 1.5mm diameter earth. Normal UK (NOT EU) lighting circuit rating for this cable is 6 Amperes. 

And yes -I am part of the group -we are currently sat here discussing business -we are all part owners of the business and we are going to exhibit our products Next Wednesday to Saturday at the Roundhouse. 

Now to REPEAT 

QUOTE: 

"Please keep your comments specific to what works for you. Refrain from commenting on others' techniques, because--obviously--if it works for them, it's okay for their purposes, and that's specifically what I'm trying to draw out--what works for whom in which environments. Let the reader make the determination for themselves whether the techniques discussed would be appropriate for their environment." 

UNQUOTE: 

QUOTE: 

Greg, for once, try not to be a Greg. 

the question was not from a beginner, but from a moderator. and the question was, what we do, not, what we recommend. 

end of this thread for me. 

UNQUOTE: 

Excuse us -we have to get back to work....


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

I had 90 m of brass track mainline that I fed through 2.5 mm stranded copper, about 15 m long from the shed next to the layout. The cable was directly soldered to the base of the track at one point only with no extra protection. Most of the track joints had soldered jumper wires, all turnouts had rail clamps with joint paste to reduce corrosion. Had minimal issues once I installed the jumpers and clamps - endless issues prior as you would expect with manufacturer's railjoiners.. It all worked well for 6 years in a temperate climate about 3.5 miles from the coast. 

Similar to Ralph's friends, the feeder cable (actually 4C 2.5 mm) was in the skip at work and got re-purposed. 

Cheers 
Neil


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

When I used to run track power on my little 150 foot of brass LGB railroad, I used 18 ga. wire (?) from the power supply to two feeders. I use Split-Jaw rail joiners, which provide excellent mechanical strength and electrical continuity to each rail joint in my flex track ( to reduce the number of joints; a must)

But no matter how many feeders, or how you connect the joints, we are just talking about "How do I minimize the voltage drops around the loop in my layout". Voltage drops will reduce the speed slightly from point A to point B.

In my eyes, this is the least of your worries with track power. Getting power to the track is the easy part. What about all of the various ways you can completely lose power (0 volts)? Oxidized rail, dirty wheels, "cheap and dirty" track pickups, and several layers of other contacts between the track and the motor can and do completely stall and stop your loco (or do the track powered stutter step at best). And of course, if you have any turnouts, you will need to have a loco with a long wheelbase, multiple track pickups, and plenty of speed just to get through them without stalling. "Been there, Done that."

My recommendation for track feeders? None.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Chicago Botanic runs with 1 feed per track and jumpers around joiners. 

Don't want to rewire your layout? Batteries!


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i have been running outside in Colorado-denver-for about ten years-- a modest 150 ft, sans one siding and two passing tracks 
i use a 10 amp bridgewerks, run analog 

and i do use huge speaker wire to a single LGB clamp -8 gauge stranded copper-triple sheilded, sleeved and coated


i use LGB sectional track-R3- 

before assembly 
i meticulously clean joiners and make sure they are straight, tight and fitted , and polished inside as best as i can with my dremel- 
and add a touch of auto lithium graphite grease to each inside joiner -the press fit is really snug, like brqand new trac from the box 
and then, i make sure the track doesnt shift by use of very long (8") nails set to the inside of a tie- 
not through it, simply wedged in to keep things tight and not allow shifting under weight of trains 


havent had any issues -no dead spots, no dead switches or sidings 

it IS because i am lazy, but also, because, after reading years worth of posts , articles, and promotional materials, i followed some tips that indeed work well 

nice fresh tight joints and a bit of 'stuff' to keep out micro debris and water seems to do it, as well as "minding the gap" 

i have no moisture in joints, nor dirt, and have only had to replace two joiners from corrosion


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## FiatFan (Feb 12, 2013)

Greetings, gang. 

New to the forum but not quite new to outdoor trains. I have about 140 foot loop and run a Bachman 4-6-0 Big Hauler with the original power pack that came with the set. I soldered all rail joints and soldered a trailer wiring harness to the track. The wire from the power pack to the wiring harness looks to be about 18-20 gauge wire. So far no problems. 

Just my 2¢. Your mileage may vary. 

Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Tom, and since you are running low current, 18-20 gauge wire will suffice. As soon as you try to run locos that draw 3 amps or so you'll most likely experience slowdown away from the feed points. At that point you may have to upgrade your feed to 12 gauge or so depending on the number of feed points and the layout "Shape" 

But soldering the joints will ensure good running for years, wise move! 

Greg


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used 14 gauge Malibu wire, with feeders about every 20 foot. Conductive grease in the joints. Ran like that for 18 
years with no problems. Got tired of cleaning tracks, changed over to batteries. 

Don


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When you specify wire gauge, you might also indicate the type of trains you ran, and how far to the power supply. 

A beginner might think they can run really light gauge hundreds of feet, conversely need 10 gauge wire for a single LGB loco. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. got tired of recharging batteries and changed to all track power


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 09 Feb 2013 03:26 AM 
I have shown this thread to several people and most of them seem to be mystified.... All of them use track power and are 32mm and 45mm users outside. Feeding the track at 24Volts we have the following array of systems: 

1: Exterior unshielded German Silver cable (64 0.1) laid underneath the track and tapped off to power it at specific points. (45mm) 
2: RG58 Coaxial cable fed from a central point and star radiating to the track -connections made by BNC crimps. (45mm) 
3: Domestic PVC wall buried grade lighting cable (Brown is Positive Blue is Negative) rigged as two "Ring Mains" with taps to the track. (32mm) 
4. Strips of Copper roofing bonded to the wood work with pitch and the connections to the Copper made by screwing brass screws through the roofing felt "ballast" through to the Copper beneath. Strips of Copper roofing are joined together with roofing Lead solder. (Yes he *is* a roofing contracter!) (45mm) 

I don't use track power at all -all my locos are self powered. But if this was a task that I had to do then I would opt for two "Ring Mains" and shielded German Silver cable of around (32 0.2) and use "Chocolate block" screw connectors. 

regards 

ralph 
..........................................................................................................



Hi Ralph. I'm kind of mistifyed here on some of the material you use or other use over there. Always trying to learn new stuff even tho I'm almost 80.
Can you show some photo of the use of the coax.. I'm an old ham K6wgz yr's ago and yup.. I put that stuff RG-58, RG75 and RG-8 being I had rolls and rolls of that stuff fom Air Base MAR's station here and put some in the ground for a Ho garden layout. I used it around my patio planters goiing around it for the R.R. yr's ago in the 50th. 
Course my problem was I had to use Tar to seal the ends, but in time the rubber starting to crack and water go to the sheild and rusted out in place to nothing was left. 
But hey it worked for 10 yrs or so. 

Just some dumb question maybe, but if I don't ask will never get any ans. from some one that seen or has done this stuff. 
Questions.........
I.) What is or can show what PVC German Silver Cable (64 0 1) looks like? I've never see it. What gage wire is it?

2.) Direct buried lighting cable you guys over there ( Brown and Blue ) use. Is that simular to our Malabo outdoor cable arund 18 or 16 gage wire? Ours has both wires black with neg wire ribbed rubber and Plus wire is smooth rubber insul. Also ours is not color coded other than wire is siver and plus wire maybe brass color.

3.) Not sure on the copper strips of roofing bonded.. what is that and what it look like.. Look like you are saying it under the track and ballast? Very interesting on how you use it ..Doesn't it corode?
Sure like to see a photo of what you use over there, Ralph.. 

Like we said always trying to learn new stuff and and been zapped many time from trial and error. (Note:: 480V - 3 phase dose hurt to, so dose stuff with 315 cyc. to.) 
Anyway, like to pass stuff on to our newbies in our train group here too. Noel


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

My "empires" have always been small enough not to need "feeder wires"... As there's little noticeable voltage drop from one end to the other in less than 100 feet. 

JUMPER wires, OTOH. THOSE I have. I've come to the conclusion that Aristo grade crossing/rerailers make GREAT block separators. The little wires underneath last about 18 months outside. R-1 turnouts are another place where continuity sometimes decides it wants to fail. Some speaker wire stretched from either end of the problem child, and stuffed into the joints with a little LGB paste and rail clamps, then hidden in the ballast ....and we're good to go again for a couple more years


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

My Aristo rerailers don't use wires underneath. Instead they have a flat strap of brass joining each rail.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Noelw, 

Here in the EU we define our cables as [number of conductor wires] [thickness of conductor wires] thus (1 1) would be a solid conductor 1mm thick and (10 0.1) would ten conductors of 0.1mm thick. The stuff James uses is a conventional heavy duty instrument cable. The PVC insulation sleeve they have to strip off as it does not have a "smoke rating" in case of fire. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/instrument.jpg 

The standard UK (not EU) lighting cable is normally referred to here as "Twin and Earth" it has conductors that measure 2.5mm in diameter and has a bare earth wire of 1.5mm dameter. Standard EU single phase colours are Brown (line) Blue (Neutral) and Green with Yellow stripe for Earth. Three phase colours are Black, Brown, Blue, Grey and Green with Yellow Stripe. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/twin+earth.jpg 

Here in the UK we don't really build on the ground -we prefer to elevate our tracks on pillars (wood or brick). Tors has his trackwork on OSB (orientated strand board) on a "stringer and post system" (rather like a narrow base board). The OSB is then pitched the strips of roofing copper put on (using Lead for roofing joints is also common here). The roofing felt is then melted on top and seals it. There is no ballast as such the green grit of the roofing felt providing the look of the ballast. I am going to have Tors do the same thing with my latest piece of trackwork when the spring comes. Tors built his trackwork about 2005 and his kids run around and sit on it! 

regards 

ralph


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I've got about 250 feet of code 250 AL rail, powered by a Bridgewerks 10A power supply. I live in Sacramento, CA. We have heat in Summer, and some rain in the Winter. The ground stays damp from the need to irrigate to get anything to grow. The water is extremely soft because it's nearly all from the snow in the mountains. 

I use 6 foot sections of track; fewer joints, less likelihood of power failure. I run power through 14 gauge Malibu lighting stranded cable because it's cheap and waterproof and u-v resistant. The power drop is connected to the layout in two places, approximately half way around the layout from each other. I crimp terminal connectors onto the wire and connect the wires to Hillman Clamps. 

With the 10A power supply, I can deliver over 24 volts to the track if I want to. 

This has worked reasonably well for over ten years. It would be perfect if I didn't get electrolysis between my AL rail and my Hillman Brass clamps. So about three or four years ago, I began lining my brass clamps with aluminum foil and a little "No-Ox." 

I clean the track with Scotch Brite either under a caboose or with a pole sander. I don't usually use solvents unless an application of "Goo Gone" would remove sap, fruit juice and bug guts. 

It works for me!


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 21 Feb 2013 08:53 PM 
Noelw, 

Here in the EU we define our cables as [number of conductor wires] [thickness of conductor wires] thus (1 1) would be a solid conductor 1mm thick and (10 0.1) would ten conductors of 0.1mm thick. The stuff James uses is a conventional heavy duty instrument cable. The PVC insulation sleeve they have to strip off as it does not have a "smoke rating" in case of fire. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/instrument.jpg 

The standard UK (not EU) lighting cable is normally referred to here as "Twin and Earth" it has conductors that measure 2.5mm in diameter and has a bare earth wire of 1.5mm dameter. Standard EU single phase colours are Brown (line) Blue (Neutral) and Green with Yellow stripe for Earth. Three phase colours are Black, Brown, Blue, Grey and Green with Yellow Stripe. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/twin+earth.jpg 

Here in the UK we don't really build on the ground -we prefer to elevate our tracks on pillars (wood or brick). Tors has his trackwork on OSB (orientated strand board) on a "stringer and post system" (rather like a narrow base board). The OSB is then pitched the strips of roofing copper put on (using Lead for roofing joints is also common here). The roofing felt is then melted on top and seals it. There is no ballast as such the green grit of the roofing felt providing the look of the ballast. I am going to have Tors do the same thing with my latest piece of trackwork when the spring comes. Tors built his trackwork about 2005 and his kids run around and sit on it! 

regards 

ralph 

Tk's for the information..Noel


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