# Aluminum Track



## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

After speaking with Duncan and Marty last evening (scarey huh/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif. the three of our minds put together/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif )........ I would like to pose a question. 

If the opportunity presented itself, How many of you would go in on a mass purchase of aluminum rail lengths? 

In all honesty it's something I've been throwing around here for a few months and since the hobby is out of our reach to expand the layout further or to the end result we are looking for...... I figure now is the time to gather some intell. 

I am looking at several factors so the track could be used by battery/steam and track power users alike. I also would like to reduce the amount of expansion so folks in the SW could be comfortable using it as well. Especially since Duncan's layour seems to be suffering from disolving rail at the moment tells me there's more going on there than meets the eye./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

I don't wish to divulge too much detail for many reasons at the moment. Among them is the boards are always lurked on by those that might not want to see this happen or would like to take the idea. (Doubtful though since I'm not looking at any type of profit margine initially or in the near future. This is a "good of the hobby" effort.) another is I need to get more "ducks in a row before I Oh-fish-aly say that it's a go. Meaning there needs to be enough interest (50 or so folks) to cover the minimum that might be in place. 

I would have put this in the Poll Booth but for some reason I couldn't get anything to post correctly there but this is the track forum and what better place to start. 

Later, 

Joe


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Joe, while some people have good experience with track power on aluminum rail, most do not. It corrodes easily, is sensitive to moisture and salts, and it oxidizes right away. 

Since it is relatively soft, agressive track cleaning is not a good idea, the drywall sandpaper can remove significant amounts of metal. 

You also mentioned reducing the amount of expansion, and aluminum's linear coefficient of expansion is worse than any other metal used for track, 

SS 304 is 9.6 x 10-6 inches per degree F 
Brass is 10.4 
Aluminum is 12.3 

You could not use a metal much worse for conductivity and minimal expansion. 

Not saying it could not be used, but I doubt that track powered people, or people with large temperature swings would be enthused. 

Just trying to be helpful and avoid any wasted effort on your part. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

6061-T6 is what I use. 
And, no track power whatsoever. 
Ecer. 
No matter what.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, Dave. Please believe me when I say this.....I respect both ya'lls opinions, concerns and advice. But as I said I can't really go into specifics. Although I kinda wish that folks would just show some interest and not tell me it can't be done. I may not be a metalurgist but..... Believe me I am taking into consideration the points that both of you bring up. Maybe I might have jumped the gun before getting all my ducks in a row but There is a ceratin amount of information I have at my disposal from folks that know how to make this work.....and at a much lower price than that of brass or Stainless Steel. 

Look at it this way. If I can get this to come together, I'm offering everyone that wants to get in on this a chance to buy the rail at pennies above manufacturing cost. But hey if ya'll want to have your "short-ones" held on to as tightly as they are by all the "big box manufacturers" then that works for me too. 

I'm not angry at ya'll especially given your concerns and the track record of aluminum but these guys can make all the bucks they want by selling small amounts of stuff at huge prices. One thing for sure is their not getting a penny of mine anylonger. I've been throwing this around for almost a year now and it moght not even work out but I want to know if I can get something going to help make things better. 

Later, 

Joe


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

What code rail and what would be the width of the rail base (ie, what tie strips will they fit) And will you make rail joiners? 
-Ray


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Code 332 to start and rail only.


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Joe, 

I have posted information about my use of Aluminum rail and track power at least half dozen times on this forum in recent years, at best the information was politely ignored. But, I will try one last time. 

Don't know what others, that have actually used aluminum rail with track power, have expierenced but my effort has held up well. I used code 250 aluminum rail from COCR, 6061-T6, it has now been in the ground for 9-10 years and I run track power with no problems at all. 

Winters- average cold temp 35-40 can go as low as 20, with an occasional snow. Summer, average 95-105 can go as high as 115. It just lays there and does it's job. It can set for months during the winter, I just run a sanding pole lightly around to knock off the trash and sand then run trains. 

When installed, It was all hand laid on Redwood ties on stringers as per Marks artical in GR about 1997-98, and all rail joints are jumper-wired. The jumper wires were done by tapping a brass screw into the rail web and soldering wires to them. I know, electrolysis, but after nearly ten years it has not reared it's ugly head. 

Even more interesting is the hand laid switch using aluminum rail, I confess I used nickle-silver rail for the frog but it continues to function in spite of that. 

Even though it continues to function faultlessly there are some changes. 
All the track after that was laid using AMS code 250 brass, on table top, It is wired for track power but most motive power is changing over to battery-rc. 

So to get to your question, I may be interested in aluminum rail in the future but am not really interested in hand laying any more rail. 

Thanks 
Rick Marty


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this may be a good idea, but timing and being practical is the hard part. I think its great that Joe is thinking of things to help the hobby.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Joe, was not trying to be a wet blanket, just that a couple of things cannot be changed in aluminum, like it's coefficient of expansion. That has to do with physics period. 

If someone is telling you they make a type of aluminum with a different coefficient of expansion, like much lower, run screaming. 

Likewise you cannot change aluminum and still make the surface conductive. Unfortunately, plating aluminum is not really practical, and anodizing it gives you an insulator. 

So I hope you are focusing on the low cost part of the equation, not trying to beat the laws of physics! 

Rick, I do not dispute your experience at all. But yours is the exception, rather than the rule. I know guys that never have to clean their brass track, and many others that need almost daily cleaning. 

I know one guy that had nothing but problems with stainless and his brass track performs better. Unbelievable problems with black deposits on his rails. 

But, you gotta look at the majority experience. The majority of people have problems with track power and aluminum rail. 

All of that said, Joe, more power to you! If you can solve some of these problems and get it for a good price, you will be doing many people a service. 

Don't take it as negative. Take it as your friends wanting to make sure you are not being fed a line of xxxx. 

Regards, Greg


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, there are at least two methods in use, to give Aluminium a suface yhat is very conductive. 

- Nickel plating. I use some nickel plated nickel-silver rail. Nickel plated brass rail is well known and used in Germany by many. My experience, is that this track keeps much cleaner than my stainless steel track. 

Prices of both brass, nickel-silver and steel, have risen very sharply last couple of years, and are not expected to come down again in any forseable future. 
This makes the proposition of nickel-plating aluminium more and more attractive. 

- Novelty Chemical treatment. There is a new process in use since only a few years. It changes the chemical composition of the aluminium surface, into non-oxidising and with good conductivity. It is for example used by the mobile phone industry, where they want to mount electronics on aluminium directly. I found two companys in Sweden, offering this new surface treatment. 

However, personally, I've decided to switch entirely to battery (and live steam) operation, so I'm not pushing these venues any longer. 
I think we will se a lot more aluminium track beeing sold in the future, as the price difference is now hugely in favor of aluminium. And I also think / hope/ track-power will diminish. 

An interesting thing, is that Maerklin offered aluminium gauge 1 track in the 70's and 80's! And I think they may have scrapped that line, to minimize number of stock items. (Competition is nothing like the US in Europe. Companies get away with that kind of profit maximizing in Europe :-(


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

While all my track is stainless, mostly due to the hard well water in my area and the overall potential oxidation/corrosion effect, if I could get a 332 Aluminum with diminimis oxidation characteristics with track power I could very well be interested in the opportunity. 

Key for me is a "Prove it" mentality. I'd have to really see some of the material and some quality tests on it to decide. The last I plan I scetched out, I'd need roughly 1600 feet for the next phase of the railway so the potential savings would be significant. 

Mark


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't use track power and I'd be interested in purchasing code 250 aluminum for future expansion; trouble is, I don't know where to buy it at the cheapest price


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I assume this would be made by an extrusion process? Please advise.....


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 05/16/2008 10:18 AM
I assume this would be made by an extrusion process? Please advise.....




Yes.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run the math on this once a couple years back when I was frequently in one of these plants for work. The two factors were die costs ($1500-$2500) and getting an extruder to do a smallish run. And then competativeness goes out the window. 

Now, if you are a die maker by trade and working at such a plant on third shift when no one is around....


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cmjdisanto on 05/16/2008 11:14 AM
Posted By Spule 4 on 05/16/2008 10:18 AM 
I assume this would be made by an extrusion process? Please advise.....

Yes.




I'm certain aluminum track and brass are extruded but I'm not so sure about the SS tack? Is that roll formed? That would explain the slightly different profile of SS rail too. 

Chas


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, 

I'm out, but just a suggestion: Get moving on this soon. Our steel suppliers (castings and plate) forecasting 20% price increases for June. 

Aluminum and other alloys are likely to have a 5% jump per month in the foreseeable future (through August). I know folks think that the manufacturers are raking us over the coals with track prices, but the price of raw materials has increased so much just this year. Quite frankly, I am surprised that people like Aristo do not continually increase their track prices, and that the price merely doubled last year. 

Regarding a bulk purchase, be advised that most places we go to for metal prices can only hold that price for 24 hours or less. No kidding. While your volume is likely low, maybe what? 3-4 tons? expect the price to change daily. 

I'd be more interested if you were going after stainless steel. But even at that, I don't know I could commit that kind of capital with the downturn in the current stagflation. 

Mark


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

A friend's family runs a local non-ferrous material scrap yard and they adjust their prices daily. Sometimes hourly. The lines for drop off are around the block some days. Just saying. 

Chas


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Thing is, a very large portion of the cost of track, are the tie-strips. With aluminium rails, the tie-strips becomes the majority of the cost. Ans so, offering just another (new) source of aluminium rail-profile, seem quite pointless - unless offered with conductive surface treatment. 

Already, Llagas offer both code 215 and 250, and Sunset Valley offers code 250. As for code 332, I seem to remember there are several companies offering this.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way... I think offering conductive surface aluminium rail, is a very rocky business proposition. Because of so many people here at myLargescale.com, and Llagas and Sunset, report success with track power using aluminium rail, and Maerklin once offering it, I believe most of the opposition to aluminium track, is simply prejudice, not based on experience. 

Because aluminium rail is getting like 1/5th as expensive as alternatives, more and more people will try it, eventually killing prejudice. And there goes the basis for offering aluminium rail with "extra" conductive surface... ;-) Another reason I scrapped this idea. (Apart from battery and RC based operation, wich I think will be the thing finally tipping the issue in favour of aluminium. 

"Just my 2c" , as you americans put it


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't need ties or conductive processes; just the least expensive metal rails


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So we can just send you inexpensive, non conductive metal rails without ties? 

ha ha, but that is what you literally said. 

Seriously, why did you even post that comment? If you aren't interested in the subject of something new someone is trying to achieve, why make such a comment? How helpful is it? This person is trying to explore an alternative, and if he is successful, we will all benefit. Let's not cut him down when he willing to do the work and effort to explore this. 

It takes no work or effort to say (I want) "just the least expensive metal rails" 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (May 19, 2008)

I don't need ties or conductive processes


why make such a comment?


may be, there is a missunderstanding? 

i, for instance, would like the least expensive conductive rails without ties. 
that means, i am running trackpower, make my own ties and want to save money. 

maybe, SE18 is running battery and making his own ties? 

korm 
.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

running batteries and use homemade wood ties. Cyberspace often difficult to communicate without being misunderstood so apologies as didn't mean to offend


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Years ago, there was an article in Model Railroader about an outdoor railroad that used slotted ties to gauge the rails - made of strips of masonite! The builder would apparently treat the track with some type of sealer/water repellent and the thing lasted for years - course, the layout might have been located in Arizona! 

Anyone out there ever set up a test piece of masonite-based track to see how it weathers? 

There are numerous examples of using slotted ties to gauge strips of aluminum, though you could use virtually any metal - perhaps even a hard, but flexible uv-resistant plastic? 

I've often wondered if you could slice up/slot the new composite decking boards (like Trex) to make the ties. There are concerns that cutting small cross sections of Trex destroys the suface "skin" thereby making the material more susceptible to moisture. Switchcrafters uses the HD product "Veranda" for their ties with no reports of deterioration, so that may be an option for someone with a decent table saw - and a lot of time! 

Just my 0.02. 

Brian


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 05/19/2008 12:10 PM
I don't need ties or conductive processes; just the least expensive metal rails




Same here.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Just another unpatented idea; if a groove could be milled into the top of an alu rail and either brass/or steel /nickel silver :toprail machined to pressfit into the alurail ????? 

manfred Diel


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Manfred, 

That could easily be done, but the cost would be prohibitive given the need to set up the machinery and manufacture the dies needed to register the slot and to mill the rail cap. I bet it would be cheaper just to go with extruded nickel silver or even stainless steel rail. There would also be the problem of galvanic corrosion with the dissimilar metal contact. 

I once looked into having code 250 aluminum rail custom extruded from 6061-T aluminum. If you order enough (12,000 ft or more) it begins to become very economical. When I tried to resell the amount over my projected needs (basically at cost with shipping added) I couldn't get commitments for more than a thousand feet or so - made me understand why rail is so expensive from the usual suppliers! 

Brian 

Brian


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Okay, here's an update 

We've spoken to the Metalugists at Martha's employer, Kaiser Aluminum. We know the alloy that is need and I have been informed that it will be stronger than brass and also be conductive. They have also explained what needs to be done to reduce the oxidation process. There may need to be something done because the alloy in it's natural state can oxidize but only if the rail is not allowed to dry. Meaning that if it is held in a constantly moist state like under leaves or yard debris it will oxidize. It is very hard and would take a fair amount of cleaning so we're still considering this. We just don't want to have the alloy "pit" and cause issues. We know the cost of the die and the price per pound of the alloy. We also know the size extrussion press needed but unfortunately Martha's company doesn't have a press that size so will be talking to someone about that this weekend. 

As questions have been asked I have tried to answer them to the best of my ability or knowledge available. There is a sort of discretion here because nothing is set in stone and although I am doing this for the benefit of the hobby, I am not doing this for the benefit of the manufacturers, existing or would-be. We will not make one penny on this so to recap what this is.... 

-The cost of the rail will be mfg cost only. 
-It will be 332 to start and additional sizes will be looked into as we get a hold on things. 
-It will be for rail only no ties nor connectors. It will be a specific length as determined to be the most cost effective 
for the run. 
-We are looking at the purchase being on a per pound basis. 
-It will not include shipping. 
-Since we are acting as the broker for the purchase and it's being done basically for the cost of Mfg, there is no implied warranty on our part at all. However if there is a legitamate issue with the alloy or extruded product we will act as a go between. We will not be financially responsible for refunds. This all should be covered by the extrusion company and the alloy mfg. 

What needs to happen next is dependant upon the conversation I have on Saturday. I will hopefully be able to post a good bit of info then. There will also have to be more interest than just 5-6 people. 

As far as a sample product goes.......I'm not sure how to do that without a considerable investment on our part. I am working on it but if we were in a position to extend that type of investment....then we wouldn't have a problem with buying brass track in the first place./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

If there are any further questions I will do my best to answer them. Thanks for your patience and interst so far.


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

I have been buying around 600 ft of stainless and more recently brass track each year for the last 3 years. I will be buying at least that much this year. I run bat. power and live in the Southwest. I for one would be greatly interested in buying 332 aluminum track as described in your last post. 
Best, Ted


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks Ted. Still need 24 more folks though. Anyhow I don't have much more to offer. The person I spoke to on Saturday said the smallest press they have is still too big so the search is still on. He is actually looking into things as well and I have found a couple local (as in regional) places but have yet to receive a reply. 

From what I was told it's definitely a good time to have work for the smaller presses. Most stuff is being sent overseas and that's a shame. I did get an opportunity to learn some additional info about overseas operations. Seems that the many "quality issues" we have seen in extruded metals is due to the process they use. Here in the states, press operators have very little time to wait between billets extruded. Here the billet goes from the furnace to the press and is extruded in under 3 minutes. In operations overseas the billet can take over 30 minutes to go from furnace to finished extrusion. This plays heck on the metal and the extrusion die. Often causing the die to prematurely wear out but it still gets used because of the "expected" life. 

I am coming to the conclusion that this may have been o good idea but with the lack of response on all ends it ain't gonna happen./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Joe, 

Here is another like you may want to check out. I have worked with Calex (whom this company purchased) some years ago, and designed dies in the size range our rail falls into. 
http://www.profabextrusion.com I do not have any experience with Profab, but Calex was great to work with. From my experience with extrusions in this size range, 12'-0" would most likely be the 'economical' length to extrude. This new alloy you are talking about, will it be in the T6 temper range? 

Bob Cope


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Well for the couple of folks that actually showed some interest in this I thank you for that. Thanks to Duncan, Marty and Chas for listening and/or contributing thoughts as well. Unfortunately the idea is now dead due to the lack of interest. It's just not worth it. With all the complaining about the cost of track.......One would have thought that something like this would have spurned more interest. Go figure. I've been a member here now for going on 4 years and been watching things for the 5 before that. I know change happens but sometimes I just don't get things here anylonger. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Joe, 

I hear what you are saying. I was watching this thread to see what interest you were going to solicit on the aluminum. I have been researching Nickel-Silver. I got a budgetary estimate from a company for Code 215 rail of about $2,200.00 for the die set, and a minimum run of 2,000 lbs of material. That would equate to about 39,000 feet of rail and $20,000.00 at todays prices. 

Anyone interested?? 

Bob


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Yeah Bob, Didn't go like I had hoped. I have a feeling that most were turned off by the "no expressed warranty by me" statement.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

What kind of warantee is required? Seriously folks. None of these companies we are buying from have truly binding warranties. All it takes is a bankruptcy to voi d all of them. If the comapny doesn't exist who are you going to go back on? Joe that wasn't it. Folks simply are being VERY cautious with their money right now. If i could "front the money" for this I would. I simply do not have it. As I'm sure most folks do not right now. 

Chas


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, 

Wow - who in the world gave you a quote of $2200 for a die? The most I have ever been quoted for a die was $750, and they are typically less than $500 (you may need to add a couple hundred for an "engineering charge"). 

If they are giving you some line about a cost differential in the die for nickel silver vs. aluminum, it's BS - a tool steel die wouldn't even begin to notice the difference - in fact, it could be used interchangably with a moment's notice. 

Also, the minimum of a one TON order is also ridiculous - you must have contacted a very large company to have such a large minimum order. 

I had gone down this same road last fall - minimum orders were virtually non-existent, though the price breaks for larger orders made an order of less than 12,000' cost prohibitive. 

For aluminum code 250, I was quoted prices of $1.16 per 6' length for 2000 lengths (12,000'); the die would have been $250; a one time set up charge of $150. I wanted 2-3000' for myself but could not get commitments for more than 1,200-1,500' even selling the rest at cost + actual shipping. 

Brian


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 06/04/2008 8:43 AM


Joe that wasn't it. Folks simply are being VERY cautious with their money right now. If i could "front the money" for this I would. I simply do not have it. As I'm sure most folks do not right now. 
Chas




Chas, I'm right with ya on the backing thing. I would have no problem if it was a year ago. Just this house over the last year and some of the relocation stuff has really set us back some. 

Anyhow I didn't mean to sound like that was the reason, although I still say it had some to do with it. Good points though, it's just I came to that guess given some of the posts that have come up in other discussions involving customer service and all./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

Anyhow that die cost was more than 3X what I was quoted Bob. I think I said it to someone that if ya pay more than 1000.00 at the most for a small press die, you're being "railed". Pardon the pun but I couldn't resist./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif I was given a quote of 500.00 for a 7" press multi-extrusion point die.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry to hear the idea is dead, Chris. To be honest, I saw the 'Aluminum Track' heading and wasn't interested. If you are talking about an alloy with better qualities, I would definitely be interested. I wish there was a better way to reach people and get more of a response. 
Let me know if you can save your project. I would like to be involved. 
All the best, 
Matt


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

Good Evening Joe & others, 
I have used Aliminium Track now for two years without 
problems or mishaps other then my louzy Track Laying,;-} 

In fact!, I`m using 12mm x 3mm Aluminium Strap for Track, 
with home made Wooden Sleepers, I`m on a Pension and cannot 
afford Comercial Track in a fit!. 

I`ve even built my own Points, {turnouts to you blokes} 
using this Strapping. 

Two six Ft Lengths of Strap and Twenty Wooden Sleepers 
cost me $12.00 for a Six Ft length of Track for use 
with Power, Battery and Live Steam!. 

Works for me!. 

John.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Brian, 

I only found one place in Texas that would even talk to me about that small a run. Most places I talked to wanted even larger runs. Maybe my sources of information are for larger suppliers (Thomas Register). 

Since I did that research, I have decided that I am going to go battery power in lieu of track power. I have seen enough posts on this and other forums supporting R/C it sounds like the best choice for me and my style of railroading. Which would make aluminum rail a good alternative. A couple of questions/suggestions. Would it be possible to do 10'-0" lengths instead of 6'-0"? You mentioned a new material, is this better than 6061-T6? Have you thought of offering the remaining rail that we (those of us on this forum) do not purchase on E-Bay or another outlet? 

Bob


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, 

The quote I received was for standard 6061-T6 aluminum - again, no minimum order. 

With shipping included on an order of 12,000', I was looking at an investment of around $2900, or around $1.45 per 6' length. This would have dropped to about $1.25 with subsequent orders as the die and engineering charges are a one time shot. Going with 10' (or even 20/24') lengths would have added significantly to the shipping costs as UPS would not be an option and you would be dealing with freight trucking companies. Also, you would run into problems handling such small cross-section rail in such long lengths - it would be likely to kink/bend under its own weight unless you had several sets of hands to support it during installation. 

I've never been a fan of evilBay, so didn't even consider that route. 

IF people are seriously interested, AND they want to front the money for their portion of an order - including shipping from me to them (the extruder would not be willing to drop ship multiple small orders), I could revisit the deal if we could have, say 75% presold. Given the current price of aluminum and shipping rates (i.e., diesel fuel), I could only imagine what it would now cost for the same amount of rail. 

Brian


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Sunset Valley has it for $3 a foot and that includes the plastic ties, for a price comparison. http://www.svrronline.com/index.htm 
Jerry


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 

The equivalent cost comparison would be for a 6' length of just the rail - SVRR has it listed for $3.95. 

While some people like the ease of installation of plastic tie strips, I had always planned on spiking my own rail to either wooden or composite ties on an elevated, and well-drained, sub-roadbed. 

Brian


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Jerry, 

I also plan to handlay track, because I have access to cypress drops from a local small saw mill and can make a lot of ties from a small ammount of their drops. Here in Florida the cypress will last longer than I will be in my current location. Plus I like the look of real wood over planstic. 

Brian, 

I would be interested in an order on the magnitude of $1,000.00 (give or take a little bit). At the $1.46 price that would equate to something on the order of 650 feet of rail. You could also consider permitting others to use the die set and place their own orders. 
As for E-Bay, there is supposed to be an alternative to their abusive way of doing buisness, but cannot put my hands on the link right now. If you would like to discuss this further, email me at [email protected]. 

Bob


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, 

The $1.45 was for 6 feet of rail, not per foot. $1000 would therefore buy you around 4,100' of rail! 

Anyway, this would not include my cost to repackage and reship to you; plus, I'm certain prices have gone up in the last 7 or 8 months. 

Options to evilBay are Kijiji and CraigsList, though neither has the audience or potential market of the former. Plus, evilBay has purchased a significant percentage of CL and I believe they actually started Kijiji! Perhaps a storefront on Amazon....... 

Brian


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, I knew that was only for a foot, didn't think to just look up a single rail price. Good idea you had, just trying to get enough on'ry old guys to agree on anything is hard. Jerry


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm so happy to see that someone was able to pick this up and reincarnate their own attempt. Adds even more confusion to my already dumb-founded disposition. Maybe I'm a little bit bitter but after all please keep it going, it is good for the hobby. Yet it still makes me wonder. 

I can say some degree of certainty, this is not the last you will hear from me regarding the track scenario. I'm still quietly working on things. Maybe, we are in a position to complete the offering (or when pigs fly) it'll work out. So until then I have to ask is the rail that is now being spoken of in code 332 or is it the 250 stuff? Not that we have the funds for the purchase (didn't want to admit it at first but that was part of the original reason to sideline things for now) I was just curious. 

Glad someone was able to get some interest going. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

"...is the rail that is now being spoken of in code 332 or is it the 250 stuff?" 

Good question, Chris. I'm not sure how strong 250 would be. I realize that T-6 is the strongest common temper of 6061, but I would like to hear comments if someone has seen/experienced it in such a small profile. 
Also, I'm kind of assuming/hoping this be a similar profile to an existing brand. I'm asking because if I have to hand-lay my track, it will never realistically get done between three young girls and seemingly continual maintenance on the house. It would definitely change my options if I can't get plastic ties to fit. 
That said, if it's everything we expect at $1.45/ 6 ft + shipping, I'd commit to 1000'. 

Chris, keep us posted!


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, 

The rail that I was looking into having produced was code 250. I am only interested in 1:32 standard gauge railroading and the code 250 is a good compromise between scale height and strength. Code 197 or 215 would be better, and probably cheaper, but I also considered that code 250 already has a significant installed base and would have theoretically made selling the excess that much easier. 

However, as I alluded to earlier, I was never able to to get commitments for more than 1500' feet or so of the proposed 9,000 feet I would have left to sell. This despite the fact that I was only going to charge actual cost + shipping and the cost of the shipping container. 

Given that it worked out to be less than half the price of what is commercially available from SVRR, etc., I was just amazed. Guess very few do old fashioned handlaying anymore. Gave me an appreciation of why large scale products are so expensive - the combination of a limited market and the need to factor in the carrying costs of slow turning inventory and the cost of advertising, etc. 

To be honest, I'm not seriously considering this project again. Given the current economy, I'd be lucky to get 750' sold and I have no desire to sit on an extra 9,000 feet of rail for the next decade. In the 2,000' foot quantity that I need for my personal use, the prices I was quoted worked out to $2.60 per six foot - even with shipping, it would be cheaper than SVRR. 

Brian


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Brian, 

Thanks for correcting my math, I didn't pay attention. Although I don't need quite that much, I would still be willing to keep that commitment, I believe I could move the rest over time (hopefully not too much time). 

From the sounds of your last post, you are going to toss in the towel on this project. Before you do that, please give me the benefit of possibly picking up the ball. I do have a couple of generic questions. So you have a drawing for the die (if the die does not already exist)? If not, I am a professional draftsman and can make the drawing. Are you willing to reveal the vendor and share the quotation data so someone else could continue? 

I also will check with the members of my club and see if anyone there (or the club) might be interested in getting in on the purchase. 

Bob


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Howdy everyone, 

Sorry that I'm getting caught up here a little late. I am willing to commit to 1,000 feet of rail. If I like the first batch, I'll take another 1,000 feet (if available) right away. 

My biggest question though that I haven't seen anyone address is ties. 

Thank you, 
Paul


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, 

Welcome to MLS. 

I think most people that are interested in buying just rail are into hand spiking to individual ties. These are usually cut from either redwood, cypress or cedar on a table saw - you can cut many thousands in a weekend with the right jigs. 

Anyway, interest has severely waned in the project and it is unlikely I'd be able to get all of the 12,000' presold. The latest quote I got would make the rail around $2.10-2.25 per six foot. Considerably more than the $1.45 I was quoted last fall, but still much better than the $3.99 most vendors charge. However, as I have told several people in PM's, I'm not going to personally pony up the $4k+ it would take to make the order and hope that people eventually buy it from me. I can now see why rail is so expensive - the carrying and interest charges have to be covered. 

Brian


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Brian, 

Thanks for the welcome but I've been around a while, lurking mostly. Had to get a new computer and lost a bunch of passwords so it looks like I'm starting over here. Anyway, all that is besides the point. 

I understand the problem with fronting the money for a project like this. I wouldn't want to to it myself either and be left holding the bag. Is there any chance of forming a plan and reviving a project like this? It seems like there are other people that might still have interest in this. I also notice that it has not quite sunk in with some people that the price you have listed is for a 6 FOOT stick of rail. Not a 12 INCH length like is commercially available. I'm still interested and maybe we can get some life back into this. 

Thank you, 
Paul


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, 
I went through this same exercise last October/November. I had a bunch of rail "pre-sold" but when it came time to forward checks to me so I could place the order - not a single one was forthcoming. 
While I would still be open to doing this deal, you will have to forgive me if I am not overly optimistic about the chances for reviving the project. 
Brian


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

The idea is great, but for me and maybe others not real practical. I buy track when i can afford it. Usually $100 here an there when the money is available. I don't have $1000 to drop on track (sure wish i did!). I buy track when i get an overtime day, take some scrap to the scrapyard, or pick up an odd job here and there. I can't commit to buying, but I would definately buy when money was available. I know it's not what you wanted to hear but I think alot of guys are in the same boat. For me it's not a lack of interest, it's a lack of guaranteed funds. I hope you find the folks to go through with the project, so when i get some train money i can get some track. 
Terry


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Brian, 

Sent you a PM. Still trying to breath some life into this idea. 

Paul


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

My problem is that when I get large chunks of cash to purchase anyhting with what I want to buy (track) is NEVER in stock then nor on sale (Aristocrafts "bargain deals" on track). I COULD front some money but timing is important. 

Chas 

PS I contacted the manufacturers rep from teh company I sued to work for and he said the place I was familiar with in Minnesota was limiting new contracts to over $100k per year. He suggested Minilux Extrusions or something like that in NJ but a quick websearch turned up no company like that? I can do the drawings for the profile (still haven't done that yet) based on a number of options. I own some Code 250 brass, I believe AMS brand, that sits in the box still, I have all in code "332" - LGB brass, Aristocraft Brass, a few sections of USAT brass, TDV SS & Aristo SS in my "inventory". so what is the collective pleasure of the crowd? What brand is easier to get tie strips for? If we can accomodate the guy who do not want to hand lay it still works for the guys that do. i'm geussing Aristo or AMS is easiest to get large quantities of tie strips in 332. I'm not so sure about the 250 or smaller gang though. Wasn't somehting I considered up until VERY recently and my purchase of the code 250 was for a VERY specific use (portable live steam layout). so I do not foresee purchasing a lot more of that. 

Chas


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 

but still much better than the $3.99 most vendors charge.


I understand your orignal quote would have been quite a savings, but 
Llagas has Al 215 listed for $2.90/6ft and 250 for $3.40/6ft. Plus, possibly a discount if you order enough (ask me how I know  
Plus they recently came out with new 1/32nd scale tie strips (20 ties per foot, 8 ties per strip) for about $2.16/ft for us lazy non-hand spiker guys (good looking stuff, btw!) 

-Ray


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## krogerssolar (Jan 8, 2009)

im new to the all off the track type's right now i am running on brass track and with track power i am looking in to buying more for my expanding layout. i have seen stainless steel and aluminum what works the best for outdoors and one that you dont need to clean the most and that will work with the LGB and aristcraft track i have. if i was to buy stainless steel or aluminum


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

SS would be the way to go, it the strongest and the easyest to keep clean of all the rail out there..Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A kind suggestion K-solar: instead of reviving an old thread, start a new one... if you read this thread, you will see the subject was a lot different. 

Read these pages and I think it will help you a bit:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/beginners-faqs-mainmenu-49/track-choice-mainmenu-50*

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/track-mainmenu-93/track-aamp-rail-material-mainmenu-94* 

There's many other good resources around.



Regards, Greg


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

I am going to be looking into Micro-Engineering track which is pretty reasonablely priced. The rail is available in NS AND Aluminum. Anyone had experience with the ME ties long term. 

Jack


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Their wood ties don't last, I had one of their switch kits, they rotted away real fast.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry, 

These are plastic ties??? Tie strips to be exact. The ME wood ties are, I think, basswood (AKA Linden) which isn't rot resistant. 

Jack


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Seven years in harsh Canadian conditions, and no sign of degradation. Posted By Jack - Freshwater Models on 01/10/2009 6:52 AM
Anyone had experience with the ME ties long term. 

Jack


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Pete, 

Thanks for the reccomendation! I guess that is the way I will go. 

Jack


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