# Comments on the new "push in" connectors on the Phoenix PB11?



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was just told about this, and subsequently looked at the pictures in the Phoenix manual.

The screw terminals are gone, and you now get little plastic blocks where you shove a wire (tinned if stranded) into the hole to make a connection.

A spring finger catches the wire to make the connection.

What does everyone think about this?

Boy, it would seem to be to be unreliable, a very small contact patch, and if damaged, unrepairable.

For the few people who have used this, what is your "take"?

Personally, having used this type of connector on cheesy cheap electronic devices, I think it's a step backwards in quality and performance.

If you have not seen this, you can see the picture, and a cutaway of the works in their manual, on page 4: *http://www.phoenixsound....trong>**

Regards, Greg*


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

"OH BOY" is Right cheezy, even more glad I'm QSI/G-wire, and the new q2 thingys for USA I'll wait for QSI's new adapter plate. I thanks to Greg E. now convert my USA mac's to just hook up my QSI/g-wire, battery r/c boxcar to em and away we go. Easy Peasy!!! Regal


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Screw terminals are getting very expensive. 
I would like to try some. 
Do you know if they come in 1/10" pin spacing? 

Any idea where you can source them?


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Will have to try them and see. Thanks for the "heads up" on the change.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Electrical outlets and light switches in houses and industry have been using the "push-in" connectors for decades now. So do computers and peripherals. These generally don't cause problems, though I've seen exceptions in computers and peripherals.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I am somewhat familiar with these "spring clamp" connectors. We had several products where I used to work that used them. We made high quality products, and these are not "cheesey" parts. But I never did like the way they work. It requires a tool of some sort to use them (paper clip or something similar). They hold the wire nice and solid. They are just a pain to use. It is interesting that Phoenix dedicated over a page of text and photos in their manual on how to use them.

I have considered using these connectors on my own products. There are much lower cost than the high quality screw terminals I presently use, the brand name which also happens to be Phoenix. The connectors are the most expensive components of the entire board. It is the first place to look to save money. But for the savings in cost of parts, it would take me much longer to test them, and worst of all, I'm afraid some customers might not like them. So, it will be interesting to hear your responses.


Overall, I think they are completely reliable.
You need a tool to use them, just like you need a screwdriver to use screw terminals.
You don't have to mess with the wiring all that often.
???


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

These connectors rely on a very small contact patch, and the spring "biting into" the wire. 

While it is true these are used in household wiring, they are NOT used for stranded wire. Furthermore, if you tin the stranded wire, it does not necessarily give a consistent surface. 

I think this part is of lesser concern, but I would like a larger contact area, I don't remember the max current draw of the sound card, but it's probably max under an amp. 

What I am concerned about is that changing wires can be more often that we want, and how the clip will function after a few cycles. 

I "feel" much better when I can feel and see the screw terminal clamp down on a wire, than shoving it into a black hole. 

Another concern, which is not as common, is that sometimes for wiring, you put 2 wires in a screw terminal, like supplying power, daisy chaining it to other devices. This happens more often on decoders that power lights. 

Well, we will see how they turn out. My vote is to keep the screws, these connectors were obviously used to save money. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I will keep an open mind for now. 

My problem is I need to use 1/10" space screw terminals nowadays and they are getting very expensive. My only other option is a plug and socket set up. They cost too, and the wires tend to break in the clip.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Good point about inserting two wires. I think that would be extremely difficult. 

These spring clamps are not the same as push-in used on AC boxes. The tool opens the clamp prior to insertion, so it works fine with stranded wire, which of course should be tinned prior to using in any kind of terminal. (a step most folks skip).


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The contact area is both the finger and the "floor" of the terminal, which the wire is sandwiched between. In theory, the contact area could in fact be larger than that of a screw terminal, depending on how much of the wire is in contact with the metal. You don't need a large surface area at all for electrons to flow (as evidenced by how many times I've had things not work from one single strand of wire making contact where it oughtn't.) How much surface contact area do we really have with screw terminals? I don't know about you, but I don't take a torque wrench to 'em, I just tighten them until there's some resistance and leave it there. It's the same thing--pressure from above creating a firm contact with a pad below. Sure, you don't want the wires coming out, but to what advantage is mashing the wire within an inch of its life? You run the risk of breaking the wire at the point where the screw comes down if you apply too much pressure. 

It bears mentioning also that the plugs we commonly see for running power from the track/batteries or to motors and lights are not much more than that. The surface contact area is arguably similar, if not smaller. Sure, some of the plugs could be more durable, but they're all quite capable of passing an adequate supply of electrons through them. Heck, dad and I have been using cut up DIP sockets for decades for our internal electronic connections. No problems at all after 30 years. 

As for the two wire issue, why not just twist them prior to tinning? I do that even with screw terminals, because it's not uncommon to have wires of different thicknesses, and the thin one invariably slips back out. Solder them together, that issue goes away. 

Later, 

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

If one is worried about it, it's easy enough to wire a screw terminal strip in using solid wire. Heck, you could bypass the Phoenix strip altogether and solder the wires from the screw terminal strip to the circuit board pads.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, twisting 2 wires does not give the right or reliable contact area, these things are designed for a solid, round wire. 

Thus the problem with even a single stranded wire. 

Dwight, I understand I could take my $200 decoder and modify it to have screw terminals. My point is that this is a step backwards in quality in my opinion, and in reliability also. If this was some really inexpensive item that made it's market by being cheap, like the Revo receiver, then I would not have brought this up. 

But Phoenix is the "top of the line" sound board, and now cost cutting is affecting the quality of the product in my opinion. 

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Wasn't the first Greg, and doubtless won't be the last.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, unfortunately. The screw terminal strips are expensive as compared to these push in sockets. 

In my perspective, $2-5 more for this product is not a deal breaker, but I believe they are feeling the pinch of competition and decided not to raise the price. 

Of course, I seem to be the odd man out, I would not bedgrudge Phoenix for adding $5, but, based on how many people I know that are looking for the last $5 off in the price, I can understand their decision, don't like it, but understand it. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin, twisting 2 wires does not give the right or reliable contact area, these things are designed for a solid, round wire. 
Greg, you missed the "prior to tinning" part. Once tinned, they're a solid, round(ish) wire, no matter how many separate wires you want to twist together in the first place. I wouldn't put un-tinned, stranded wire in a screw terminal, either. Too many chances for one strand to chart its own course for disaster, otherwise. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, they are roughly round, but not nearly as round and consistent as a solid wire, and 2 wires together are worse. 

I did not say don't tin the wire, in fact in your zeal to defend this (or attack me), you missed the second sentence of the VERY FIRST post, where I mention tinning stranded wire. (DUH!)

I did say this type of connector is designed for solid wire. Check out the only one you have experience with, the household ones for outlets and switches. They do not tolerate flexing or movement. In the walls of your house, the wire does not move, it sits undisturbed. Our trains are not the same, things vibrate, get opened, wires shifted, etc.

How about you consult an electrical engineer who has designed products, then you can tell me about connectors, contact area, spring fatigue, etc. (funny how you always come out contrary to me and on the "side" of the manufacturer if my comments are perceived as negative. )

The contact area is small enough, and it's the spring that makes the contact. I've said this earlier too. 

I think it's an unwanted cheapening of the product and less reliable. 

As a consumer, I would pay an extra $5 to keep the screw terminals. I think the manufacturers need to hear opinions. If mine is in the minority, so be it. 

Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I too would like to see the screw terminals remain, even if they jack up the price. I feel conformable with them. 

I won’t pass judgement on the push in connectors until I give them a try as I have seen some types of connectors in industry that look weak, but after actually using them they seem OK. 

Maybe next they will have some form of super socket


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I find it reprehensible anyone would try to defend this until they have been in service for long enough IN THE VIBRATION PRONE ENVIRONMENT to see how they hold up. 
You ever tried to put stranded wire in one of those wall sockets in your hose? 
Yeah, just before the fire department showed up. 
Even screw terminals, with twisted, tinned stranded wire needs the occasional tightening sometimes. 
Bets are high someone wrote a glowing review and is pre-defending hisself......


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

While I also initially did not like the idea, I changed my mind yesterday. I had to insert a pin to release these new connectors on the PB11, when inserting the tinned wire from Aristo Revolution auxiliary wires into the BP11 for triggering sounds. It worked out fine and was not any more difficult than using a screw type connection.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Please keep us informed on your impressions and experience. 

I don't think they are hard to use, on the contrary, should be very easy. 

My concerns are long term stability and conductivity and retention of wires after being "cycled" a few times. 

Again, they are designed for solid wire, no movement or flexing, and not a lot of "cycling". 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i am not entirely sure, what you all are writing about. 
but if it is the same system the LGB powerpacks use as cableconnectors, then it is a timeproven, functional system. (H0 Fleischmann used that one even in the fifties)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Korm. 
Essentially it is the same idea although a different mechanical action is used. They are much smaller than the LGB ones and possibly even less harmful to the wire when the internal spring pressure is applied.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

thanks Tony.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No, they are roughly round, but not nearly as round and consistent as a solid wire, and 2 wires together are worse. 

I did not say don't tin the wire, in fact in your zeal to defend this (or attack me), you missed the second sentence of the VERY FIRST post, where I mention tinning stranded wire. (DUH!) 

You are correct, you did mentioning tinning the wire in your _first_ post, but _not_ in your post where you were commenting specifically on my thoughts, where I also mentioned tinning the wire. That specific context of your comments led me to infer you missed that point in my comments. A misinterpretation. 

As for twisting wire, you're right. Two solid wires twisted together are rougher than one solid wire. But three are smoother than two, four are smoother still, and when you get to stranded wire made of 20, 30 strands, then you're up to 40 - 60 individual strands for a pair twisted together (twisted prior to tinning). Properly tinned, the wire at that point becomes very close to the surface contours of a solid wire of the same diameter, and there's every expectation that it would behave as well as solid wire would in such an application. 

How about you consult an electrical engineer who has designed products, then you can tell me about connectors, contact area, spring fatigue, etc. 

I'll rely on my 30+ years of practical experience, which I gained consulting and learning from my dad, who holds a Ph.D in electrical engineering. He hasn't led me astray yet. He's let me get shocked once in a while to teach me a lesson, but his theories and practices have always proven quite sound. They were good enough to send man into space, I'm pretty sure they'll continue to work on trains running on a track. I _have_ a very good teacher, thank you, and I have a great deal of respect for the insight you bring to the table as well, even in cases where I disagree with it. 

You and I have different design standards. You'd engineer a bridge so that a Sherman tank could drive over it, regardless of what kind of traffic it was to carry. Nothing wrong with that, but I continually get the impression that you believe anything less is a bad thing--even if what's designed is adequate for the required load. That's where I come from. I look at the practical application, and design accordingly. If a structure is never going to be out in the rain, there's no implicit need to make it waterproof. Doesn't mean it can't be waterproof, just that there's no need for it to be. If a switch is only going to get thrown 100 times in its life, there's no need to use one that can be thrown 100,000 times. You can, but it's design overkill for the given task. 

I agree with your opinion that screw terminals are more convenient, especially in terms of uninstalling a board for whatever purpose (changing locos, troubleshooting, reprogramming, whathaveyou.) But how often is that realistically going to happen? Four, maybe six times over the life of the board (and that's being really generous in terms of installing/uninstalling cycles)? I don't think there's going to be any issue with fatigue, loosening, or anything of that nature given that specific scenario. Yes, our trains move, and yes there is vibration and movement as shells get removed for maintenance, battery replacement, etc. In my experience, that very low level of movement has long proven insufficient to disconnect plugs, loosen screws, or otherwise make sound connections all of a sudden unsound. (It _is_ sufficient to make unsound connections reveal themselves.) Time will tell how these specific connectors will work. Based on past performance of similar plugs, I'd say the outlook is positive. 

(funny how you always come out contrary to me and on the "side" of the manufacturer if my comments are perceived as negative. ) 
Er, yeah... If your comments are against the manufacturer and I disagree with them, then they--by definition--have to be pro-manufacturer. If I agree with you, I tend not to say anything since you've already said it. I know how much you _love_ "me too" posts.  And yes, I tend to give manufacturers the benefit of the doubt in many cases, especially when someone presents a position based on theory or indirect experience. I offer the same as you--a personal opinion based on my personal experiences and observations. Nothing to be implied as fact, just observations. They're merely contrary to your personal experiences and observations. That does not render either "wrong." If you're prone to perceive that as an attack, then I can do no more than reassure you it is not. I can only control what I put on the page. How you interpret that is out of my hands. 

Bets are high someone wrote a glowing review and is pre-defending hisself...... 
Greg--take the bet. Whether it's a ham sandwich or Dave's cigar collection, it's payday!  

Seriously (and not saying Dave is specifically naming me--though no one else in this discussion routinely writes reviews and is taking a "pro-socket" position), _if_ "someone" had a board in hand, he wouldn't have to resort to theory based on experience with similar plugs and sockets, no matter _what_ his opinion was. We'd be able to definitively say (as bdelmo has said) how well we found the specific sockets to work for us, and how we personally found them to hold up to repeated "cycles." 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, honestly, you have not had 30 years of practical experience with these connectors. Neither have I, although I would wager I was wiring 110v stuff while you were still in diapers. But enough of this who is more experienced stuff, the design of these connectors is just not made for stranded wire. Being smart is not going to offset how these connectors are designed. 

I think it's a step backwards in reliability, and quality. 

Sherman tank? In this product space, how many people have 10 year old sound units? 

A TON! 

Do you think these people would like it if you said, hey, the sound units you buy now will only have a lifespan of HALF of the previous unit? 

I think there is still some expectation that Phoenix is the top of the line, built at a quality level to last as long as the loco. 

Remember, the point is not that the Phoenix should be as bulletproof as a tank, but the expectation is the new product is better, not worse. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Dec 2010 01:43 PM 
Please keep us informed on your impressions and experience. 

I don't think they are hard to use, on the contrary, should be very easy. 

My concerns are long term stability and conductivity and retention of wires after being "cycled" a few times. 

Again, they are designed for solid wire, no movement or flexing, and not a lot of "cycling". 

Regards, Greg 



Which is what I think I said.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Dec 2010 01:43 PM 
...
Again, they are designed for solid wire, no movement or flexing, and not a lot of "cycling". 

Regards, Greg 


Actually, they are designed for both solid and stranded wire, 26 to 20 Ga. per the Phoenix Contact specs: They call them PTSM connectors. Here is a sample data sheet.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

They may be designed for both but in reality they do not work well with stranded wire. I for one if I was still using these types of boards I'd rather pay a little extra for the screw type terminals. There are times when we like to change things around more than once and having to deal with these new type connectors can be a pain plus also prove to be a bit unreliable. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The manufacturer on that data sheet is called Phoenix, no relation to Phoenix that makes the sound board. I know you were not intentionally trying to mislead people, you probably did a Google on Phoenix connectors, and you got a German company named Phoenix.

But, these are much lower profile, and I have not seen the innards. I have seen the innards of ones on the Phoenix board, because they gave us a picture.

Find the data sheet on these. English please.









give me something like this if no screw terminals:









Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Let me run this up the flag pole. 

Pnix P-5 and P-8 (at least), the plug was on the wires, the pins on the board. 
Should you have a problem, corrosion, breakage, heat failure of grasping portion, you unplugged the harness in question, depressed the lock, removed the offending wire and connector, inserted one of the spares you kept when you installed the unit for wires you did not use, and you were back in business. 

Unfortunately, had to do that more than once. 
But, it did work, and did NOT require removal of the sound unit, pay to ship to Pnix, pay to have it repaired, pay to ship it back, then figure out where all the wires went. 

All the time you did not have the use of your locomotive or sound unit. 

Just think about it now. 

I can't wait to read the "review".


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin, honestly, you have not had 30 years of practical experience with these connectors. Neither have I, although I would wager I was wiring 110v stuff while you were still in diapers. 
You're what, 15, 20 years older than me? I should hope so, lest you have had a very wasted youth.  When it comes to these specific connectors, neither of us have _any_ firsthand experience, therefore predictions on either of our parts as to how they affect the longevity of any product that uses them are equally plausible. At this point, it's premature to make any kind of judgment on the longevity of the product. 
...the design of these connectors is just not made for stranded wire. Being smart is not going to offset how these connectors are designed. 
A premise upon which we both readily agree, hence both of us stating that tinning the wires is required for best results. I've almost never _not_ tinned stranded wire when making any connections, so I guess I (perhaps wrongly?) presumed that everyone did. Silly, I guess... 
I think it's a step backwards in reliability, and quality. 
I have a different opinion. 
Sherman tank? In this product space, how many people have 10 year old sound units? 

A TON! 
I'd rather think it quite a bit more than a ton, actually. Considering an average weight of 190 pounds per person...  Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, there are many, many Phoenix and Sierra systems still in service from the mid-late '90s. I'm among their owners, having 6 Sierra systems still in use from that time. Dad's got even more. I think I've installed/uninstalled them maybe three times each at the most, and two of those times have been in the past two years as I've been playing musical sound systems as I've upgraded my throttles. Am I unique in that? Do people routinely make a habit of swapping out sound systems to where installing/uninstalling them becomes that much of an issue? 
Do you think these people would like it if you said, hey, the sound units you buy now will only have a lifespan of HALF of the previous unit? I think there is still some expectation that Phoenix is the top of the line, built at a quality level to last as long as the loco. Remember, the point is not that the Phoenix should be as bulletproof as a tank, but the expectation is the new product is better, not worse. 
Your point assumes that the these new connectors are going to prematurely lead to the device's demise. I disagree with that premise, therefore I have every expectation that these boards will be around as far into the future as their predecessors. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg. 
Del said the name also happened to be Phoenix in post # 6 on page # 1. 
You just need to click on the English version from the langauge options menu.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, when I wanted to get more details, the stupid thing threw me back to the German site. 

Kevin, we can agree to have different opinions. The difference here is I can say it in one sentence, not an entire screen full. 

Also, speak for yourself on experience with push in connectors. You have no idea the number of hardware designs I have done, managed, etc. 

The simple physics is enough for concern. 

So, when is the new GR review of the PB11 coming out? Did you write it already? Did you already receive your "editorial sample"? Did you play with the connector? 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg & Greg 

Yes the link took me to a German language site. In the top right hand corner was a menu box with a selection of languages available. 

I clicked on *English* and voila...........!!!


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I am currently waiting for 2 PB11's. As for the push in connectors, if they work as good as Ideal Industries In-Sure products (which don't have a release), then I'll be happy. 
The Ideal 's I've used are for 12 to 18 AWG and can be used with solid, tinned and stranded wire. 
Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin, we can agree to have different opinions. The difference here is I can say it in one sentence, not an entire screen full. 
I did, originally, but you refused to accept it. You then went on to imply I was attacking you, then followed that by completely discounting my personal experience with electronics because I don't agree with your perspective. That's not agreeing to disagree, that's having an opinion, and considering anyone who believes contrary to be woefully uninformed. 

Also, speak for yourself on experience with push in connectors. You have no idea the number of hardware designs I have done, managed, etc. 
I _do_ speak for my own experience. That's the whole point! I've been using connectors for nearly three decades. The fact that I don't _design_ them doesn't mean I don't haven't developed a sense about how they work, or what in my experience makes a good vs. bad one. My career path may not have taken me down the engineering path, but that doesn't mean I can't grasp what makes things work. None of us are one-dimensional. 

So, when is the new GR review of the PB11 coming out? Did you write it already? Did you already receive your "editorial sample"? Did you play with the connector? 
As I stated to Dave's offhand remark, if I _had_ a sample, don't you think I would have countered your points with concrete examples? Photos, even? Instead, you fire a cheap shot at a point which has been made crystal clear. If you're not going to accept the _fact_ that I don't have a sample to look at, what reasonable expectation do I have that you'd remotely respect my opinions? If you're not going to respect what I have to say, I'm done. 

Later, 

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg vs. Kevin - Round 2,513! hehehe


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It _is_ a full moon, after all.  (And the eclipse is pretty near its peak right now. Gotta wake the wife so she can see it.) 

Later, 

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, the clouds closed in here around 11:45 PM or so and I missed the total eclipse. Just prior to that, the Moon was around 90% eclipsed or thereabouts with only the top visibly white. It reminded me strongly of Mars through the telescope, all copper color with the gleaming polar ice cap. I so wanted to get a picture and went and got the camera, but that was when the clouds obscured things. 

Edit: found this image on the web which is pretty much what I saw. Doesn't this strongly resemble Mars?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Lest I spark some kind of interplanetary dust-up, I'll simply say "I agree completely" and leave it at that.  (I've seen what Marvin can do... I don't want any "earthshattering kabooms" at my expense.) Seriously, it does look like Mars. I tried to take a photo of it last night myself, but my camera is not very good in really low light and it looked like a really dark blob in the middle of another dark blob. Cool to see, though. Probably the best view of an eclipse I've ever had. Worth staying up for. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tommy, the Ideal product is relatively good, it uses much more pressure, cannot be released, and is designed from the outset for larger and heavier wire. I've used them, they are OK. You can see in their construction a really large blade bearing down. Larger gauge stranded wire is somewhat easier to deal with since it does not deflect under pressure like the lighter gauges we use. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Kevin if you had a sample, would not be possible to give any concrete examples on the long term reliability, unless you have a time machine! 

p.p.s Are you really 48? 18 + 30 = 48. I did not completely discount your experience, just your claim of 30+ years. Really, exaggerating everything I say to the absurd is a technique that is transparent to me. 

p.p.p.s I'm feeling a little insulted, only a measly Sherman tank? not an M1? I'm going to have to step it up!









Have fun and run trains!


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Greg, just, because you call for it: 

"p.s." stands for "post scriptum" 
after that comes :"p.p.s." (post post scriptum) not "post scriptum scriptum".


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

oops! I was not paying attention, was laughing too hard when writing! 

Too much scriptum and not enough postum! 


Thanks Korm! 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Damn! I've been away from the forum and this topic for fifteen hours and I come back and youse guys are STILL arguing about the same thing. Go play with some trains or sumtin'.







. Are you still keeping score Dee-wight?


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Der sparring partners Gary, guess ifin we wants to end dis discourse we gots to get em a steel cage and let em fight to the bitter end. Last man standing. Hah LOL Regal


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

^^^


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I do want to share this link with you. 
It is one of those things that has stuck with me, lo, these many years. 
If you read the glowing reports, with no "years of experience" with the product, you can see one of the things that has always driven me to dig deep, and caution initially. 
Have fun! 

http://wikicars.org/en/Chevrolet_Vega_Review


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

p.s. Kevin if you had a sample, would not be possible to give any concrete examples on the long term reliability, unless you have a time machine! 
Well, I am looking for a DeLorean...  You're absolutely correct, which is why debating this to any one single conclusion is pointless. How about we agree to let history be the judge 10 years down the road, and not worry about prognosticating based on supposition one way or the other? (Dave's link is proof positive as to the futility, otherwise.) 

p.s.s Are you really 48? 18 + 30 = 48. I did not completely discount your experience, just your claim of 30+ years. Really, exaggerating everything I say to the absurd is a technique that is transparent to me. 
I've been doing this pretty much all my life--something I'm fairly sure you should know of me. I started building LGB and Lionel layouts on the basement floor at age 5. Dad always made sure I knew what the electronics I was using did and how to use them properly. We collaborated on automation, controls, sound systems, etc. all through my childhood. (Typically, I'd have an idea, he'd design it and show me how it works.) We started the backyard railroad in 1980, and I was heavily involved in its construction, wiring, and its later conversion to battery power. So, no, I have no reason to exagerate my history in this hobby and its various pursuits. It's been an education I'd not trade for anything. 

I'm feeling a little insulted, only a measly Sherman tank? not an M1? I'm going to have to step it up! 
Hmm, you're right. Shouda said "Big Boy..." Gotta keep things railroad related.  


@ Gary, forget the cage match. Steam vs. diesel in a tug-of-war. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Unbelievable. 
Simply unbelievable.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I would base my "opinion" on 45 or more years of experience. 
College, Military (Nuke Subs electronics, no less), industry. 
You had experience with electrical on those Lionel and lgb layouts....not electronics. 
You know anything about vibration analysis? 
Have you calculated the mass of the wires, and the frequency of vibration of locomotives or tenders clattering across Aristo of lgb frogs? 
You're talking out your......well, you get the idea. 

Gain a cell.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, I accept you have a different opinion. 

We don't know for sure how these will turn out. 

But I have a problem with ANYONE presenting opinions based on purported experience in engineering and consulting, when they are employed as a news editor at a TV station. 

I worked in engineering for a long time, companies like Hewlett Packard, Unisys/Burroughs, Uniden, Nippondenso and other less well known engineering companies. My business card said "engineer" on it at those jobs. I have earned the right to discuss technical design issues, like spring fatigue, contact resistance, oxidation of contacts, etc. 


Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

like spring fatigueI think I'm feeling some of that right now. hehehe


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Dec 2010 08:01 PM 


But I have a problem with ANYONE presenting opinions based on purported experience in engineering and consulting, when they are employed as a news editor at a TV station. 


Regards, Greg 

But....but...but...maybe he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, me too... I don't tell Bruce Chandler how to build a model. 

I don't lecture TOC on how to make Bachmann (or any other for that matter) mechanicals work properly. 

I do not lecture Stan Ames on the intricacies or origin of DCC protocols 

I don't tell Loco Lee how to record locomotive sounds. 

These guys are experts. They have proved it and earned it. 

The rest of my point should be obvious. I'm fatigued too. I've earned my stripes. The points I made are engineering technical.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Now the truth comes out. I'm not "good enough" to render an opinion because I chose one career path at the expense of another. All my training and personal experience up to my making that choice (whcih included 4 years in an engineering/technology high school and two years studying mechanical engineering in college) is somehow rendered worthless because I now have a business card that says "editor," not "engineer?" 

Who can argue with logic like that? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can render an opinion, I stated that several times..... many times... shows above... (again with the twisting of words or ignoring what was stated) 

You are not however an expert in electronics, electrical component design or connector design. 

For the umteenth time, you are entitled to an opinion, but you don't possess superior knowledge in the science of connectors. 

And again you exaggerate that your life is rendered worthless... 

It's just that you keep giving technical opinions on engineering subjects where you have no experience or expertise... 

Just like now, in the space of a couple of years you are a DCC expert... You know one tenth of what I know, and I am NOT an expert... 

Stop presenting opinions as scientific facts and you will receive no opposition... keep twisting my words, exaggerating the facts and I will keep restating the facts and BACK THEM UP. 

It's not personal, it's the opposition of bad information. 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Geez. 
Playing "The Wounded Party" from one side, and the "obviously you don't understand" from the other. 

Just because you changed the oil on your Yugo doesn't mean you're qualified to rebuild a V-12 Ferrari. 
Doesn't negate the fact you can change the oil on your Yugo. 

Oh, and I've done a lot of house wiring....shop wiring....assisted in wiring....and nobody I know uses the push-in holes on switches or wall outlets on their own house.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Not a good analogy Dave. 

There is a big difference between the requirements for mains wiring in a house and the low voltage low current requirements of a sound system for large scale model trains. 

I don't have any formal qualifications for what I do, yet I can design and build very reliable equipment that has stood the test of time. Mainly because I don't rush into incorporating the "latest and greatest" technological advance. 

I repeat, I have no position on this subject. Yet. 
Push ins may just be OK. Don't know yet. Others can be the trail blazer here.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

That's basically what we're saying. 
Nobody knows until you have weather (and possible corrosion), vibration, variations in wire (and how many folks are going to use very small stuff that falls out because they have it handy?) size, and any other thing you can throw into the mix. 

Bottom line, I think somebody wrote a glowing review somewhere without factoring in these things, and is somewhere furiously defending what he may or may not have said in such a review. 
I'm just going to wait and see. 

There was no other logical reason for engagement, was there? 

Wasn't me who brought up house wiring. 

Big difference, and not a real good idea there. 

Screw terminals.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

@ Greg, 
It's really too bad you devalue practical experience to the point you do. Many on this forum have vast amounts of practical experience without one shred of formal training, and can speak to those subjects with a great deal of authority. I've never claimed to have knowledge remotely equal to you, Dave, or my dad, nor have I intentionally purported to be able to speak to all things electronic with equal authority. However, I'm not going to let you discount my experience in large scale battery R/C for simply because I don't have a degree or a title. We went battery R/C in 1984. What I learned didn't come from a book because there _was_ no book. Dad and I both learned through trial and error what works and what doesn't. He had the degree, but we were in uncharted waters and navigated them together. Through a decade of trial and error, we finally developed a system that worked reliably and sounded as good as any analog sound system could sound. We went from lead-acid batteries to gel cells to NiCads, with installations ranging from trailing box cars to everything crammed inside a B'mann 0-4-0 Porter. Dad designed the circuits, I figured out how to make them fit. If that's not "good enough" experience for you, well, tough. Find me someone else who's got that background. There aren't many, and coincidentally, two of them are also involved in this discussion. You treat them as equals. Pity you won't pay me the same respect. 

@ Dave, 
Go ahead and wait. I may not be able to speak with absolute authority about all things electronic, but I certainly can about all things what's-come-across-my-desk-for-review. 

And in case you didn't catch my reference above, let's not forget you and I have walked the same path to get here. We share much the same concerns, knowledge, and experience when it comes to battery R/C. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Except you won't see me speaking out my [email protected]@ and blindly supporting something new without looking into it, testing it, and giving warnings of the issues that may crop up. 

All this is cost-saving....nothing more, nothing less. 
No screw terminals as on 96, 97, and 2K2. 
No populated harnesses as on the rest.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, I don't devalue practical experience. (again with the misdirection) (bad greg, hates motherhood and apple pie) (anyone see this technique?) 

There is no practical experience with THIS type of connector that you have. 

So, no reason to devalue your practical experience in this SPECIFIC area because you have none. 

This thread is on this connector on this board only, not your boy scout merit badges, how many Lionel layouts you connected, nothing else. I don't care if you invented the Internet. 


Again, trying to deflect what I am saying, I was trying to have a TECHNICAL discussion on the merits of THIS type of connector. 

Since there is no long term experience with it, we have to analyze based on TECHNICAL aspects, from an ENGINEERING point of view. 

You are not qualified to speak on contact resistance, spring tension, etc, yet you want to. 

I do indeed have practical experience on this type of connector, have led engineering groups making products and have 2 degrees in engineering. (by the way they are crap and are not well suited for this application) 

So, when you start to argue on how this particular connector works, and how tinned stranded wire is the same as solid, untinned copper wire, I do not accept your reasoning. Do you even know about the metal ion migration that can occur in contacts? 

for the curious, go back and see other "debates"... funny how it's ONLY when I find a negative or suspect aspect of a new product. It's not coincidence. NO product is 100% perfect, unless.... hmm.... you want to keep ads in GR magazine? 

Anyway, go ahead and have the last word, you are definitely more willing to keep going than me, I have made my point, and my responses are really not for you, but others that might think that everything you say is correct. 

Over and out...... 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Still, my concern from technical and practical aspects lays more towards the vibrational issue and weight load of the wires themselves on the sockets. 

On the Ames Super Socket, there are two rows of fixed pins all into two rows of sockets. 
Nothing moves. 

On this setup, it's individual wires that can, and will, move independently. 

In computer usage, A) it would have been ribbon cable, most likely, where all wires supported together, and B) no on-going vibration issues. 

Very difficult to equate under-board Lionel and lgb layout electrical (not electronic) wiring that doesn't vibrate, does not use very small push-in sockets, to this. 

However, your qualifications as a Lionel layout wiring expert, a client at Holiday Inn Express, a News Editor, a contributing editor at Clambake, and an MLS Moderator all lift your opinion much higher than anyone else in this thread.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Dec 2010 09:56 AM 
Kevin, I don't devalue practical experience. (again with the misdirection) (bad greg, hates motherhood and apple pie) (anyone see this technique?) 

There is no practical experience with THIS type of connector that you have. 

So, no reason to devalue your practical experience in this SPECIFIC area because you have none. 

This thread is on this connector on this board only, not your boy scout merit badges, how many Lionel layouts you connected, nothing else. I don't care if you invented the Internet. 


Again, trying to deflect what I am saying, I was trying to have a TECHNICAL discussion on the merits of THIS type of connector. 

Since there is no long term experience with it, we have to analyze based on TECHNICAL aspects, from an ENGINEERING point of view. 

You are not qualified to speak on contact resistance, spring tension, etc, yet you want to. 

I do indeed have practical experience on this type of connector, have led engineering groups making products and have 2 degrees in engineering. (by the way they are crap and are not well suited for this application) 

So, when you start to argue on how this particular connector works, and how tinned stranded wire is the same as solid, untinned copper wire, I do not accept your reasoning. Do you even know about the metal ion migration that can occur in contacts? 

for the curious, go back and see other "debates"... funny how it's ONLY when I find a negative or suspect aspect of a new product. It's not coincidence. NO product is 100% perfect, unless.... hmm.... you want to keep ads in GR magazine? 

Anyway, go ahead and have the last word, you are definitely more willing to keep going than me, I have made my point, and my responses are really not for you, but others that might think that everything you say is correct. 

Over and out...... 

Greg 

Seriously a cage match is in order here!! Greg you intelligently one upped Kevin, ok Kevin yer turn AGAIN!! Hah LOL They're back at it again, and I have no doubt Greg is gonna win!!! What you tink?????? Regal


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Dec 2010 09:56 AM 
Kevin, I don't devalue practical experience. (again with the misdirection) (bad greg, hates motherhood and apple pie) (anyone see this technique?) 

There is no practical experience with THIS type of connector that you have. 

So, no reason to devalue your practical experience in this SPECIFIC area because you have none. 

This thread is on this connector on this board only, not your boy scout merit badges, how many Lionel layouts you connected, nothing else. I don't care if you invented the Internet. 


Again, trying to deflect what I am saying, I was trying to have a TECHNICAL discussion on the merits of THIS type of connector. 

Since there is no long term experience with it, we have to analyze based on TECHNICAL aspects, from an ENGINEERING point of view. 

You are not qualified to speak on contact resistance, spring tension, etc, yet you want to. 

I do indeed have practical experience on this type of connector, have led engineering groups making products and have 2 degrees in engineering. (by the way they are crap and are not well suited for this application) 

So, when you start to argue on how this particular connector works, and how tinned stranded wire is the same as solid, untinned copper wire, I do not accept your reasoning. Do you even know about the metal ion migration that can occur in contacts? 

for the curious, go back and see other "debates"... funny how it's ONLY when I find a negative or suspect aspect of a new product. It's not coincidence. NO product is 100% perfect, unless.... hmm.... you want to keep ads in GR magazine? 

Anyway, go ahead and have the last word, you are definitely more willing to keep going than me, I have made my point, and my responses are really not for you, but others that might think that everything you say is correct. 

Over and out...... 

Greg 



I knew it, You hate my Mother !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









Im tellin on you, your in trouble MR.









What about my sister, you hate her too............









And not liking Apple pie is just wrong.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not meant to be a game, but it IS a forum. 

When I bring up a very specific item, and ask for opinions, that's what I hoped I would get. 

When opinion and speculation turns somehow into "fact" and 30+ years of experience is quoted as justification on "knowing" how tinned stranded wires are the same as solid, well, it's just balderdash. 

That's the only point. 

My OPINION, based on experience, is that these are not going to be as reliable, last as long, and unnecessarily cheapen the product (notice the cost savings was not passed to the consumer?) 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Very difficult to equate under-board Lionel and lgb layout electrical (not electronic) wiring that doesn't vibrate, does not use very small push-in sockets, to this. 
But it _is_ very easy to equate installing home-built and commercial R/C systems for 25 years to this, as it is the same. I may not have the experience you have in terms of sheer volume, but I've been there, done that. I know the environment R/C systems operate in. For you to say I don't ignores reality--a reality which you know full well. But then you also insist the review has already been written, despite my repeated statements to the contrary. Clearly you're not going to let facts get in the way of a good rant. 

I've never said the concerns expressed by you or Greg aren't valid. Sure they are. But do they really rise to a level of significance to where you can outright pan a product _before_ even seeing how it's going to work? It'd be one thing if Greg posed the question from a neutral standpoint, but by characterizing it as "unreliable" and "a step backwards in quality and performance," and using "cheesy" and "cheap" to describe other products that use this plug, his opinion is crystal clear from the outset. There's no "wait and see" there. It's "these are junk unless proven otherwise." Funny, since we all agree that only time will ultimately tell. I guess my mistake was trying to equate these plugs to the closest things within my frame of reference--other arguably similar plugs used in the same environment, and suggest that since those plugs have worked over the years, that perhaps these might have that potential as well? That--just perhaps--the product isn't "cheapened" or adversely affected by this change? 

I've never stated as "fact" that these plugs would work long term. I stated the OPINION that based on the performance of somewhat similar plugs in my experience, there's a likelihood that they'll prove adequate long term given "typical" usage for a sound/control installation. 

for the curious, go back and see other "debates"... funny how it's ONLY when I find a negative or suspect aspect of a new product. It's not coincidence. 
The last "debate" as I recall also stemmed from a photograph of a product, without either of us actually having the product in our own hands to evaluate. And similar to this debate, that one started by you taking a negative stance and me saying "there's not enough information just in that photograph to draw any conclusions." I believe in that debate, too, you tried to tell me I knew nothing about doing battery R/C installations. Same tired discounting of experience, same jumping to conclusions over something that cannot be verified, same back and forth mindless drivel that wastes too much time on all of our parts. Methinks I see a pattern emerging... 

Perhaps it's time to break it. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

You just going to keep at the "last word in" game? 

You have no idea, even the engineers won't know until they have been in use for a while, and the technicians have voiced their concerns.....by, by gum, you're gonna keep at this "Holiday Inn Express" syndrome until everyone shakes their head, aren't you?


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

It's called one up manship!! Hah LOL like a broken record it just keeps on a goin and a goin until no more go!! LOL Regal 

Pretty soon somebodies gonna say"ouch" from havin their ego's and or toes stepped on and finally give in or give up!! What you tink????? LOL


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Or find another forum with less bickering and more information.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Or, some unnamed moderator somewhere will decide to lock the thread for "damage control".


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

^^^


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey! did anybody watch the OPIE show yesterday, she gave away new unreleased Beatles, Bugs, VW's yesterday to each one of her guests!!! Boy there's some money that coulda and shoulda went to the needy, and homeless eh???? 


Hah another way de-rail or corfuse, and or sidewinder the topic! Send it crashing off a cliff off topic or such????eh? hah Regal


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Givin' away a good old American designed car, eh? 
Wonderful.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep I remember Kevin, you were telling me where the speaker was and how much room there was. 

Turns out you were indeed wrong. 

Had nothing to do with experience, just powers of observation. You could easily determine the size of things in the picture, since the spacing of the Aristo socket pins is a known quantity. 

Nice to see that you do admit to the pattern where you jump on my words when there is a negative comment on a new product. Of course this is documented on MLS well enough anyway. 

That is indeed a step forwards, makes my day! 

Thanks and Merry Christmas! 

Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

I still dont understand why you dont like my Momma.............


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 22 Dec 2010 03:16 PM 
Givin' away a good old American designed car, eh? 
Wonderful. 

Not Just A car but one to each member of the audience!! Talk about bein over indulging, or lavish!! Yikes like to have the money from just one fer sure!! Regal


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

this whole thread is childish. 
is there a slight possibility, that one of the two "combatants" will behave grown up? 

the only person, who´profits from this is Curmudgeon, who does not have to prowl ebay for entertainment anymore.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There are a couple of folks, when they show up, who provide all the entertainment I need. 
And then some. 

You want, I can go back to the evilbait threads again.......


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 22 Dec 2010 06:52 PM 
this whole thread is childish. 
is there a slight possibility, that one of the two "combatants" will behave grown up? 

the only person, who´profits from this is Curmudgeon, who does not have to prowl ebay for entertainment anymore. 
Now that was just rude Sir............


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Awww...._DANG!! _I'm all out of popcorn again.... (*Sigh) Now I gotta go to the store and get another box of ACT II Movie Butter microwaveable popcorn.... (_really_ tasty!)


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

So after 81 replies, we have had ONE user that has a board in hand make a comment. The rest has mostly been a pissing contest.

Personally, my only concern with these connectors is how "user friendly" they are. Do we have any other PB-11 owners that can give us some feedback?

As far as reliability goes, this style of connector (Spring Cage Clamp) is not new technology. I first saw them in use for critical use industrial controls at least 10 years ago. Those applications are orders of magnitude more demanding than large scale trains. Also, Phoenix Contact, the manufacture of these parts, is one of the highest quality maker of terminal strips in the business. I am not promoting the use of these parts. I would just like to hear some feedback from those with hands-on experience (college degrees are optional).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Del, I was on the Phoenix Contact site, I did not see a Phoenix Contact product that matched the Phoenix Sound Systems pictures. 

It's clear the Phoenix Contact stuff is nice quality. It is not clear their design is the same as what is on the PB11. If you look carefully at the Ideal products data sheets, they are different also. 

I'm concerned about the product design of what Phoenix Sound Systems is using. 

Maybe someone can get the manufacturer of the connector. 

Regards, Greg


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I received an e-mail from Jim at Phoenix today saying he should have my boards out to me before the new year. 
Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

When I discussed the upcoming ( at that time) PB11 with the Phoenix SOUND guys at York back in March 2010, the name used for the connector then was indeed Phoenix contact. They had not quite decided , but were leaning strongly toward this connector for the PB11 to reduce cost, size, and user error(loose strands touching, loose screws), while maintaining quality. The comment was made that on the PB9, the most expensive part was the screw connector. I have a number of pb11 on hand here but have no opinion yet,since none are in extended service obviously. The connectors certainly seem fine and robust during installation and setup. 

Jonathan/EMW


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I can well believe it when Phoenix sound say they were the most expensive part on the PB9 pcb. 
Although I have not experienced plug and socket failure on the P8, I can well believe the ultra small plugs and sockets used on the P5 and now the P8 are too prone to failure. 
Whatever types of terminals are used they have to be no more than 1/10" spacing to fit on the smaller pcb's. 
1/10" inch spacing screw terminals are *MUCH* more expensive than the wider spaced screw terminals. Hence like me, Phoenix sound are looking to help keep costs under control. 

When I run out of the current stock of the 1/10" spaced 4 x way screw terminals I am currently using, I am willing to give the spring type a trial as long as I don't have to buy thousands. 
I can always revert to 1/10" spaced plugs and sockets if I have to.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if there is any news now that more people must have used them. 

Haven't heard any more good or bad. 

Maybe no one is spending money. 

Greg


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

The 2 new PB11's arrived today. Took a look at them. Found out that a paper clip is quite a tight fit to release the spring clip. A pin works very easily. First, I stuck the pin in all the holes and it went fine. Then I put a wire in, removed it and did this 5 times, no problem. Hopefully I will have time this weekend to install it. 





































Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Leland Limited (Nov 10, 2010)

i installed a PB11 back in December and found it to be very user friendly. i didn't have a paper clip around, so i used a small brass rod from my modeling supplies to "unspring" the clamp. the wire went in fine and stayed nice and tight once i pulled out the brass rod.

inserting the single wires was a breeze, and i would suggest following phoenix's advice about soldering the 3 wires from the reeds (the 3 that all go into slot 12 i believe) before inserting them. i just twisted them together tightly and had a little difficulty making sure that all 3 would stay in when i pulled out the brass rod. i did eventually get it to work and am really enjoying the new sound card on my train. highly recommended, and i found the gang over at phoenix to be great for customer service!


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

My personal opinion of these spring cage connectors – I don’t like them. Give me back the screw terminals. When installing the first PB11, I had trouble with the speaker wires and volume control wires. Seems the spring connectors offered more resistance than I was expecting. This caused the wire to bend instead of sliding into the clip. On the second installation, I did the volume and speakers first. No problem. After testing the sound board, it was time to remove my connections, trim my wires, tin and reinstall. Unfortunately when I went to put the power #2 wire in, it did not grab. What!!! There was no longer a spring connector to insert into. All I had was a hole. I eventually shoved a little screwdriver into the top of the whole and forced some metal down. Mental note – if there is a problem with this engine in the future, look at the #2 wire. All in all I found the spring cage connectors frustrating.
Performance wise the PB11’s work great. I have run both of them for about 12 hours now. Even with these connectors I will be buying some more sound boards by summer and they will definitely be Phoenix.

Tommy







Rio Gracie


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Tommy, you have voiced actual experience with what I was afraid of, losing tension, not handling release well, and all the other issues associated with this type of connector. 

They (no matter what they try to advertise it for) are necessarily designed for a certain size and strength wire, and of a consistent, smooth surface... wire too weak, won't push the spring away. Too strong, spring bends. Twisted and soldered, not nice contact area. 

There's some really nice, expensive ones, but these aren't them. They were used to save money, not make the product better. 

Probably the best thing is to use a piece of solid wire of the optimal size for the connector, and solder all your wires to this solid wire. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Kinda knocks the slats out from under the clueless, doesn't it?


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