# Large scale terminology



## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

Just a pet peeve of mine, so please cut me some slack, and no disrespect or offense intended. I joined this site several months ago, had been modeling in HO and O for over 25 years, so no stranger to model railroading but just starting in "F" Scale so the powers to be list me as a 2 star "passenger" and that's fine with me, but I get a bug up my but when I see those supposedly higher up the consists, referring to "G GAGE" trains. Even I a lowly "passenger" know that gage refers to the spacing between the rails and not the Scale of the model. Call me a nit picker if you want or other explicative deleted, but if you don't know the difference between model railroading "gage" and "scale" then you should go do some home work. And while I'm up on my soap box, when are all the G Scalers going to pick a scale, right now anything listed as "G Scale" can be scaled anywhere from 1:22.5 to 1:32 doesn't that really confuse things for us? I know this hobby is to have fun and that I concede is the most individual important thing for most but come on NMRA how about a little clarification as you did in F Scale (1:20.3).


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I would guess that the term "G-Gauge" in large scale refers more to all the various equipment of various scales that run on #1 Gauge track (i.e. 45mm) and not just a particular "Scale."

For example using your example of "NMRA 'F' Scale" being 1:20.3 correctly speaking then the model track gauge would be 70.69mm to represent "Standard Gauge" equipment, correct? However, there is no commercial offering of that gauge model track or for that matter rolling stock, so if you wish to model in that scale you are pretty much stuck with scratch-built equipment and hand-laid track.

Or you could choose to model in "NMRA - 'Fn3' Scale", which is also 1:20.3 scale, but of mainly U.S. 3 ft. "Narrow Gauge" equipment. Which just so happens to line up with #1 Gauge track at a gauge of 45mm.

But, if you wish to model U.S. "Standard Gauge" equipment on "#1 Gauge" track you'll need to change scale to 1:32 for the correct scale to track gauge combination. Although, once again you'll be limited in your choice of equipment unless you can also accept 1:29 scale equipment running on #1 Gauge track with its associated appromiate 10% scale/track gauge mis-match.

The best answer I can give you is, unless you just happen to like always having an upset stomach and such. Just accept the terminology that's been in use way too long now to bother trying to change it, or not, your choice.







Oh by the way your scope of scales in large scale is a bit wider than 1:22.5 to 1:32, more like 1:13.7 to '???' because there are a few individuals that have scratch-built what in reality was southern U.S. 5ft. Broad Gauge equipment.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no idea what "SCALE" or "GAUGE" is represented by "HO", "O", "N","Z", "G" or "F" either.

In the "G" world all it means is that you PROBABLY run trains outdoors in your Garden.

Unfortunately, it is ingrained in the society to use "G" to represent a "GAUGE" when talking toy trains that are generally played with outdoors. Whereas "O" or "HO" to represent a "SCALE" when talking about toy trains that are usually played with indoors. 

But note, the "G-GAUGE" is not even pinned down very precisely... is it "45 Millimeters" or "1 & 3/4-inches"? 45 MM = 1.77 inches and 1.75 inches = 44.45 MM... Uh... those two terms are NOT equal. It is obvious that we cannot even decide what the GAUGE is, in addition to not deciding what the SCALE is.

In reality, "HO-SCALE" is just a much a misnomer as "G-Gauge" because it is possible to run any scale model train on the same width of track and declare it a "SCALE" that is something other then what the usual toy train enthusiast thinks it is.

I know there are people that are referning to using HO track in a different scale to represent something other than a scale of "Standard Gauge" (or, more properly, 8' 4.5" gauge), but I have yet to figure out whether that is "On3" or "HOn3"... which does the 1st letter stand for... the track in use or the scale in use? How much more informative and precise it would be to say, I am running X.X scale on y.y gauge track"... maybe more words, but it would sure take lots less emotional power to grasp the concept and it would eliminate the bazillion questions from people that are bowled over (and scared away) by the multifareous use of meaningless gobbledygook.

Of course, you know that "HO" means 1:87 scale (there are people that will argue with that!) and "O" means "1:48 scale (and there are people that will argue with that, too!) but is it interesting to note that "O" really should be pronounced as the numeric "ZERO-gauge/scale" which was the smallest of the gauges when people began to make some standardization to the spacing between the rails of their toy trains.... later, "HO" was added and was supposed to mean a Gauge/Scale that is "1/2 of ZERO-Gauge/Scale" (H0, or 'ache-zero'; not 'ache-Oh') but 1:87 is not 1/2 of 1:48 is it?

This whole idea of assigning letter to represent some numerical value is dumb, but we am stucked wid it and is gotta lern ta puts up wid it.


What about the term, "LS"? Does that mean "Large Scale" or "Live Steam"... If you are running "Live Steam" in "Large Scale" you have to call it "Small Scale Live Steam" because "Large Scale Live Steam" means 3.5 or 5 inch gauge not Live Steam running on "45-mm/1.75-in; 'G-Gauge'" track. "Grand Scale Live Steam" means something at bigger than 7.5 inch gauge... but where does that leave the 7.5 inch gaugers?


When I hear people say they have decided to run "LS" I have to stop them and ask if they mean "Live Steam" or "Large Scale", which is a rude interruption to their expounding on their newfound hobby.

Oh dear... I do rant on, doont I? (Slap slap slap slap... there, consider me dutifully punished!)


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

"Of course, you know that "HO" means 1:87 scale..." Actually, 3.5mm = 1 foot, in reality, 1:87.1 scale. OO means 4mm = 1 foot. So. HO gauge, with an example of two different scales. And of course, HO gauge can be used for On30 Scale trains. 

So, HO gauge = 16.5 mm between the rails 

BTW: "but 1:87 is not 1/2 of 1:48 is it?" That's because O was originally 1:43.5. We Americanized it to 1:48 - and now the track guage is wrong, it scales out to 5 feet between the rails. Sound familiar? 

G gauge = 45mm between the rails. 

The scales used on those two particular gauges can vary widely. 

Interestingly enough, HO became popular because it was a cheaper alternative to O gauge during the Great Depression. 

In reality, one of the problems in what we refer to in Large Scale is because of its diversity. Although we all use track of the same gauge, some of us model live steam, some model 1/32nd, most model 1/29th, and some model 1:20.3. Then there's the 1:22.5 guys, the meter gaugers, and the 1:24th scale guys. Meaning, six distinct groups plus some more obscure ones I didn't mention, such as "Proto:29". 

I really can't use 1:29th track, because the ties are all wrong, and nobody who models 1:32nd wants to use 1:20.3 track. So, manufacturers have to decide which one they want to produce, and we have a shortage of track. Something that doesn't happen in HO. There's even several brands of HOn3! 


That's a lot of different scales for Large Scale trains!


Robert


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome to the mad world of garden railroading. 

I guess if you want to get technical all large scale track should be called Gauge 1. That is the oldest terminology for the track guage we use. 

The confusion starts when we all start talking about the myriad of different scales that all use gauge 1 track. G "scale " is specific to LGB narrow gauge meter gauge track at 1/22.5 scale. Start tossing in Fn3, 1/29 and 1/32 and even 1/13 scales all using gauge 1track and things get confusing fast. Its best to take talks with a grain of salt because there are so many different points of view as to which way to call it. G scale or G gauge are simply the easiest short hand description most use discussing it. 

In general I just call it large scale, if I need to be more specific I can always get more detailed as I go.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jeez... just a Passenger, are you really worthy of this much attention? Asks Pooh with much trepidation, 'cause I'm only joking! 
Post more and soon the RR will put you to work.... The site has no knowledge of your esteemed hobby playtime, but the PTB do know how long you've been a member and whether your're a lurker or active member. Do you not still smell as sweet by another name? Becareful of getting bugs up your 
*butt * 'cause when you correct others they turn so quickly.... ha ha. 

We have a Toy Train Heritage, the idea caught on and those who liked Fine Scale decided this one could support it too. I came from On3, where I frowned on those short-cut artists in On30 on HO track! I dabbled at more details and scale thoughts until I saw the effect weather has on my RR reality.... do I want to fight for that detail or accept another direction that represents Good Enough? and a 5' rule. Can't see it at 5'? Is it needed? Do I care that my scale is 1:24? Nope, other than it brought the cost of G $cale down..... a tad and yes I did like that! 

Happy Rails, All was said in jest as a friend. 

John 

My that's a cute peeve you've got there, what do you feed it? Mine likes unquestioned Superiority.... hee hee, but obviously I'm not qualified to feed it!


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

G scale/gauge seems to be defined as being undefined! And the folks that model in the various _scales_ on the same _gauge_ track seem to like it that way. Meh, I can take it or leave it. I'd like to see things a little more defined, as I think it would be good for the hobby as a whole, but that horse died a loooong time ago, and it's been beaten to a pulp. To use one of my least favorite phrases, it is what it is. I do think that the term "G Gauge" is about as accurate as anything, since the one unifying aspect of most large scale trains is the track gauge at more or less 45mm.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 25 Mar 2012 01:44 PM In reality, "HO-SCALE" is just a much a misnomer as "G-Gauge"
No it isnt..HO scale is 1/87 scale, period. there is nothing confusing or conflicting about that, and it isnt in the same category as "G gauge"..
HO scale means only one thing, 1/87 scale, nothing else.."G gauge" is a mess, as discussed in this thread!  
because it is possible to run any scale model train on the same width of track and declare it a "SCALE" that is something other then what the usual toy train enthusiast thinks it is. yes, but they are no longer HO scale if they arent 1/87 scale..so there is still no conflict or confusion.. I know there are people that are referning to using HO track in a different scale to represent something other than a scale of "Standard Gauge" (or, more properly, 8' 4.5" gauge), but I have yet to figure out whether that is "On3" or "HOn3"... which does the 1st letter stand for... the track in use or the scale in use? 

The first letter(s) stands for the scale, the rest for the track gauge.. 
On2 is O-scale, 1/48 scale, models of 2-foot gauge prototypes, and the track is scaled for 2-foot gauge, not standard gauge. 

On3 is O-scale, 1/48 scale, models of 3-foot gauge prototypes, and the track is scaled for 3-foot gauge, not standard gauge.
HOn3 is HO scale, 1/87 scale, models of 3-foot gauge prototypes, and the track is scaled for 3-foot gauge, not standard gauge.
Sn3 is S scale, 1/64 scale, models of 3-foot gauge prototypes, and the track is scaled for 3-foot gauge, not standard gauge.
the "n" stands for Narrow gauge. 

without the "n3", just "O scale" "HO scale" etc, it is understood you are modeling standard gauge. 

Same with "F scale" = 1/20.3 scale standard gauge trains.
Fn3 scale = 1/20.3 scale 3-foot gauge trains. 


Scot


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Scot, 
When HO track is used with O scale it's On30, meaning a gage of 30" not 3'. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You got your knickers in a twist at the wrong people. We don't have any confusion and most of us came from other scales where things make more sense. Spend your energy bugging the manufacturers. They, of course, want to sell all they can, so they often list their products by what track it goes on. Add that to manufacturers who either do a poor job on scale, or change scales within a product line. Most people here talk about the scale they work in, and assume they are on G gage track. We'd all be happy if you could convince the manufacturers to make the scale consistent and clearly published. While you are out tilting at windmiills, convert all the manufacturers to use radius instead of diameter. Greg Posted By jaug on 25 Mar 2012 12:36 PM 
Just a pet peeve of mine, so please cut me some slack, and no disrespect or offense intended. I joined this site several months ago, had been modeling in HO and O for over 25 years, so no stranger to model railroading but just starting in "F" Scale so the powers to be list me as a 2 star "passenger" and that's fine with me, but I get a bug up my but when I see those supposedly higher up the consists, referring to "G GAGE" trains. Even I a lowly "passenger" know that gage refers to the spacing between the rails and not the Scale of the model. Call me a nit picker if you want or other explicative deleted, but if you don't know the difference between model railroading "gage" and "scale" then you should go do some home work. And while I'm up on my soap box, when are all the G Scalers going to pick a scale, right now anything listed as "G Scale" can be scaled anywhere from 1:22.5 to 1:32 doesn't that really confuse things for us? I know this hobby is to have fun and that I concede is the most individual important thing for most but come on NMRA how about a little clarification as you did in F Scale (1:20.3).


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a "Modern mainline 1:29th scale outdoor Model Railroader". 

Or some call me an "out of shape old man running around in his graden with knee pads, speedos and a bandana on."


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

If the NMRA had gotten on board twenty plus years ago and tried to work with the mfrs instead of dismissing LS as something not worthy of their attention until it was so popular they couldn't ignore it anymore then issued top down decrees that by then no mfr would listen to because they had been doing their own thing for the last twenty years so why change what works for them because a few guys in HO think they know what's best whether you like it or not. Sad truth is that the NMRA really missed the train in LS and has lost any chance to seriously affect the direction in LS in regards to issues like correct scale and they really have no one to blame but their own hubris regarding, or should I say disregarding LS all those years ago. So much for the Plastic in the Petunias attitudes of the early 90s.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's an interesting proposal: 

G Scale = Garten Bahn or Garden Railroad scale - 1:22.5 

Fn3 Scale = 1:20.3, 3 foot gauge prototypes on G gauge track. 

#1 Scale = 1/32nd scale models on G scale track. 

G Tinplate = anything out of scale running on G scale track, or if you prefer, 1:29 scale running on out of scale track. 

Just a thought... LOL! (Please, J/K about the last one, don't take it too seriously) 

Robert


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo stuff isn't made out of tinplate. If it was it would run flawlessly for fifty years like my Marx tinplate stuff does. []


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 25 Mar 2012 04:38 PM 
Scot, 
When HO track is used with O scale it's On30, meaning a gage of 30" not 3'. 

John 



I know..I never mentioned On30..I said On3.

Scot


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, in 1:48th scale, On3 has the correct track gauge - 3 feet, however O does not, it's 5'. 

Maybe I'm too much of a nitpicker, but I can see the difference when I look at a piece of Atlas O track... It just doesn't look quite right... 

Robert


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 25 Mar 2012 06:54 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 25 Mar 2012 04:38 PM 
Scot, 
When HO track is used with O scale it's On30, meaning a gage of 30" not 3'. 

John 



I know..I never mentioned On30..I said On3.

Scot 


ooh! now I get what you are saying..sorry about that! I was only replying to semper's question about what the terms On3 and HOn3 mean.. 
I forgot about the first part, where he connected them to HO scale track: 
I know there are people that are referning to using HO track in a different scale to represent something other than a scale of "Standard Gauge" (or, more properly, 8' 4.5" gauge), but I have yet to figure out whether that is "On3" or "HOn3"... which does the 1st letter stand for... the track in use or the scale in use? Yes, On30 scale uses HO scale track..On3 does not. On30 uses HO scale track to represent 30" gauge track in O-scale, 1/48 scale.
but when you use HO scale track in On30 scale, it magically ceases to be HO scale track and in turns into On30 track! 
(usually with different tie spacing) gauge is the same, scale is different..HO scale and On30 scale have nothing in common except
a track gauge of 16.5mm.. On3 does not use HO scale track, it uses On3 track, which is unrelated to HO scale track.

sorry for inadvertently adding to the confusion! 


Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 25 Mar 2012 06:56 PM 
Interesting, in 1:48th scale, On3 has the correct track gauge - 3 feet, however O does not, it's 5'. 

Maybe I'm too much of a nitpicker, but I can see the difference when I look at a piece of Atlas O track... It just doesn't look quite right... 

Robert 
Yeah, thats a weird one for 1/48 scale..
And, nearly everyone who models in On30 is not actually modeling 30" gauge prototypes, they are modeling 36" gauge prototypes.
So they are attempting to model 3-foot gauge trains on track that is too narrow. Then, standard gauge trains have track that is too wide!
That leads to a bizarre problem for people who attempt to model dual-gauge track! I read a magazine article, I dont recall the magazine..
but someone attempted to show On30 track modeled with standard gauge (5-foot gauge) track..the third rail was right down the middle! 
which looked just like O-scale 3-rail tinplate track!(yet another weird anomaly in the O-scale world) the author of the article attempted to convince us
that because the track was *ever so slightly* off center that the concept "worked"..well no, it didn't work at all..not even close..
it didnt look anything like real standard gauge/3-foot gauge dual scale track..it looked just like 3-rail tinplate track, 
with the third rail right down the center..failure..weird stuff going on in model train land! 

I was doing some modeling in On2 for awhile..I have abandoned the scale for now, but I will get back to it someday..
I was planning to model a spot where Standard gauge and 2-foot gauge trains crossed in Wiscasset, Maine..
If I ever do model that someday, I will just hand-lay the Standard gauge track to "proto-48" specifications..
Since On2 is already a "proto-48" scale..and my SG trains will likely be static models anyway.. 


Scot


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

always the same discussion. 
and in reality it is so simple. 
for about a hundred years the europeans standardized toy trains. 
scale 1:32 on 45mm gauge representing 1:1 standard gauge they called gauge one written with the roman letter "I" 
scale 1:22.5 0n 64mm was called gauge two "II" - 1:22.5 in "meter" gauge on 45mm gauge rail was called "IIm" 
gauge three "III" on 89 gauge mm rail was scale 1:16. 
gauge four "IV" on 127 gauge mm rail was scale 1:11. 
later, when smaller trains on gauge 32 mm were introduced, they called the gauge gauge-zero "0". 
when they went even smaller, they called those on 16mm gauge "Half zero" or "H0". 
later the denominations became les rational. 

but the infamous "G gage" is just a northamerican missconception. 
LGB called their "IIm" gauge trains in 1:22.5 "G" for garden and for "gross" (big) - not for any gauge!!! 

here is a table of international (minus the US) used scales and gauges: http://kormsen.info/scales/


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 25 Mar 2012 07:29 PM 
always the same discussion. 
and in reality it is so simple. 
for about a hundred years the europeans standardized toy trains. 
scale 1:32 on 45mm gauge representing 1:1 standard gauge they called gauge one written with the roman letter "I" 
scale 1:22.5 0n 64mm was called gauge two "II" - 1:22.5 in "meter" gauge on 45mm gauge rail was called "IIm" 
gauge three "III" on 89 gauge mm rail was scale 1:16. 
gauge four "IV" on 127 gauge mm rail was scale 1:11. 
later, when smaller trains on gauge 32 mm were introduced, they called the gauge gauge-zero "0". 
when they went even smaller, they called those on 16mm gauge "Half zero" or "H0". 
later the denominations became les rational. 

but the infamous "G gage" is just a northamerican missconception. 
LGB called their "IIm" gauge trains in 1:22.5 "G" for garden and for "gross" (big) - not for any gauge!!! 

here is a table of international (minus the US) used scales and gauges: http://kormsen.info/scales/ 

Maybe it was "so simple" 100 years ago..
but its no longer 100 years ago..

I agree 1/20.3, 1/22.5 and 1/32 scales are "simple"..
3-foot gauge, meter gauge, and standard gauge on 45mm track..easy.
If we only had those three scales, things would still be simple..

but where do 1/24 and 1/29 fit in the "simple" scheme of things? 
and what about LGB models of Colorado 3-foot gauge freight cars in 1/22.5 scale? 
and LGB models of standard gauge American diesels also in 1/22.5 scale.. 

and the "incorrect" 1/29 scale arising as a result of those LGB models of American narrow and standard gauge prototypes in the "incorrect" 1/22.5 scale

not to mention 1/13.7 scale.. 

this is where the "simple" went out the window..
(and..I think we can trace this all to LGB!  The Europeans that were supposed to be so standardized?  

if you are looking to blame anyone, blame the Europeans (LGB) first, for building trains to the wrong scale in the first place,
then blame the Americans second (Aristocraft) for introducing 1/29 scale to match the "incorrect" LGB freight cars and locomotives.. 


its all still "easy to understand"..once you figure it out..its actually not difficult once you straighten it out in your head..

but its definitely not "so simple" anymore..not like it once was..

"cant put the genie back in the bottle" as they say.. 


Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Time to bring this back!  
for anyone who's head is spinning after reading all this, this might be helpful: 










Scot


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

Ok, Ok, Uncle, it was just a little personal rant. Although I am not confused on the SCALEs, I appreciate the scale run down. And just for the record, the "G" in LGB does not stand for Garten it stands for "Gross" or Large ( Lehmann Gross Bahn, translated - Lehmann Large Railway ) and that's where the "G" in "G scale" comes from not "Garden". I do understand about the horse being already out of the barn regarding "G" scale and that's why I choose to model in Fn3, scaled 15mm = 1 ft equipment running on 45mm or scale 3 ft gage track and doing so indoors and with a Standard Gage 4' 8.5" approx = (71mm) interchange / dual gage trackage at one end of the line. I just find it confusing when looking for equipment to buy, in that you have to know (and I have researched them) the individual manufacturer's scale to know what they are selling as "G" Scale. I did petition eBay to add the "F" Scale to their categories and they replied that they would do just that this April, waiting to see. Alas, to each his own and to each his own enjoyment of this great hobby thanks to all for jumping in on my rant.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jaug on 25 Mar 2012 07:58 PM 
I did petition eBay to add the "F" Scale to their categories and they replied that they would do just that this April, waiting to see.
In theory that's a great idea..
but in practice I doubt it will do anything helpful in terms of "simplifying"..in fact, it would probably do the opposite,

and we will end up with two categorys with a random mix of "g-gauge" items, rather than just one, 

simply because of all the things discussed in this thread..


sellers wont be sure which category to use..so many will probably just use both..

and sellers that do actually understand the difference will still post non-F scale items in the F-scale category anyway, on purpose,

just to reach more potential buyers.. 


although maybe Im wrong! I hope I will be..

Scot


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## post oak and otter lake (Dec 27, 2007)

I model Large Scale 1/24, On30, and HO. No confusion here. 
Yes manufacturers should list the numerical scale on their products, but after a while you learn what they usually make. That's how I found out that my wife's Bachmann 2-8-0 won't go thru an Aristocraft covered bridge. Now I carry a 3 inch ruler that I measure purchases with.

As for On30 the rail gauge being off 6 inches. That's an 1/8 inch. I'm old enough to accept it. I did my proto modeling in N, Nn3,and Z scales. You notice I don't model them any more.

Roger 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Scot, you did not look at this link, did you? 

http://kormsen.info/scales/


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 25 Mar 2012 07:29 PM 

but the infamous "G gage" is just a northamerican missconception. 
LGB called their "IIm" gauge trains in 1:22.5 "G" for garden and for "gross" (big) - not for any gauge!!! 


Sorry Kormsen, but that is not true....

If you look at the very first LGB catalog on page 3, it states "Spurweite G = 45mm" (Spurweite means gauge)

The "G" meaning 'Garden' or 'Gross" related to the 'G' in LGB

If you don't have a copy of that catalogue you can look at a pdf copy in the database under literature>Catalogues.

There is the German version of this LGB catalogue and the English version.
Interestingly enough, the English version says "Gauge I = 45mm"

And also in the literature section in the "Other" category, there is the introductory letter by Charles Merzbach Company of New York introducing LGB to the US market - they describe the scale (not the gauge) as Standard n3.


I have also seen the gauge described as "K" gauge in early US documentation. 


There was some confusion what to call this right from day one.

Knut

PS: The database is at

http://www.gbdb.info/


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 25 Mar 2012 08:25 PM 
Scot, you did not look at this link, did you? 

http://kormsen.info/scales/ 



yes, I did..and I found it very confusing..

(perhaps if I spoke german, it would make more sense..) 

why do you ask?

Scot


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

confusing... - well, forget it. i'm out of this discussion.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I find it confusing as well and I do speak German. 

I think you need to take all the non-existent scales out that NMRA proposed at one time, like REA and A etc. 

I think there are also scale designations that you created, like Fm, Gm and Gn3 are also misnomers that NMRA used at one time. 

These are just a few I remember without looking at the table again. 

Knut


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Knut has it correct. From a historical standpoint, the "G" stood for _both_ "Gross" and "Garten," at least in terms of how it was marketed, and was originally called "K scale" for "King Size." That lasted maybe a year or two at the most, and by the early 1970s, "G gauge" and "G scale" was pretty much how it was described. 

As for the NMRA's involvement in large scale, that's a VERY long story. It wasn't too long ago that they had a proposal that would have created unique and individual sets of standards for each of the individual scales (1:32 - through 1:20.3). That would have meant the potential for different wheel and track standards for each individual scale, along with "-n3," etc. standards for things that just don't exist. Since the track is the common denominator in "large scale," (whatever you want to call it), and all our trains--like it or not--are designed to operate together, it was decided instead to author the standards so that the wheels and track were consistent across the scale spectrum. 

"F scale" is one of those strange things. The reason it exists in the standards at all is because "Fn3" (1:20.3 running on 45mm track) was part of the large scale spectrum, and that spawned a small handful of manufacturers to start making "F scale" (1:20.3 running on 70mm track) products. That's why we spelled "F scale" out with its own unique set of standards where we didn't for any of the others. 

In an ideal world, maybe we wouldn't have this alphabet soup of scales we do, but that's just not the hand history dealt. Yeah, it's confusing, even maddening at some points. But it is "large scale." Gotta love it. 

Later, 

K 

(disclaimer) I am not an NMRA member, but was asked to work with them to come up with their current standards for large scale.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

so the powers to be list me as a 2 star "passenger" and that's fine with me, {snip} Even I a lowly "passenger" As no one else seems to have addressed this, the "powers that be" didn't assign you anything. Seems it isn't "fine with you" as you then call it "lowly." The forum software assigns ranks based upon the number of posts made. Period. As you post more, you will automatically receive a different classification as you reach a certain number of posts.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 25 Mar 2012 07:42 PM 

but where do 1/24 and 1/29 fit in the "simple" scheme of things? 

Scot 



I can help with the first one, 3'6 or cape guage ( 'scuse the english spelling ) is 1:24 at 45mm.

It's all we have around here..

Cheers
Neil


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By wigginsn on 26 Mar 2012 01:41 AM 

I can help with the first one, 3'6 or cape guage ( 'scuse the english spelling )

I guess you spell it "guage" because you're down under, in Canada, above the equator, we spell it "gauge"


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, well, we're not the only ones! Ever notice military aircraft models are commonly made in 1/32nd scale while military vehicle models are commonly 1/35th scale? Makes diaromas including both much more difficult... 

Robert


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Questions of scale + gauge + NMRA =


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

That little girl in pink expresses my feelings when I first tried to figure all this out and realized that G scale could mean anything. Now I hardly ever think about it. I run anything together that I like and none of my friends say a thing, because they do the same thing. It's all about having fun.
Bob


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I realize that the G in LGB stands for "Grosse" in German, but it has a far different meaning in English. So, in America, LGB was marketed as "Garden" trains. Hence the confusion. Hey, that seems to be a theme! 

Didn't someone make 1/25th scale trains running on G scale track? 

Robert


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Didn't someone make 1/25th scale trains running on G scale track?Delton made 1/24th scale trains that ran on #1 gauge track. HLW continues the tradition.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I mentioned that earlier, I seem to remember that someone came out with a powering kit for the 1/25th scale General model, and some related stuff, but I can't quite remember. Maybe it was a one-off project by some modeller somewhere? I'm not sure... 

I kind of like the idea of 1/32nd scale since there are some plastic models to go with the trains. 

Robert


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

For the beginner it is unfortunate, but we have many different scales that run on 45mm gauge (gage) track. That way I can run my 1:20.3, 1:22.5, 1:24, and 1:29 on the same layout!!! I like them all. I have been in the hobby long enough 30+ years to know what goes where even if the manufacturers don't. For instance LGB's Colorado narrow gauge freght cars are really 1:24. That is why the LGB , USA, and Delton are very close to the same length. Delton is the only one who listed their models as 1:24. 

I have a modern, ca 1950 USA freight car that is a steel sided car and is the same length as their 1:22.5/24 freight cars. It scales nicely out at 1:32 based upon a 40' car rather than a 30' car. I use it behind my Aristo Mallet as a battery car. It looks good with USA streamliners, LGB iron ore cars, and Aristo heavyweights.

It is all in what you like and think looks reasonable. It is your railroad do what you want. I'll admit that my railroad isn't scale. That doesn't bother me, too much.

Chuck


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Oops, bad england again.. At least my announciation is usu.ok.









Cheers 

Neil


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

WOOW this thread grew, but then I work on trains more than this site. 
easiest answer, pick a scale and go with it. 
thats what many of us had done before we had forums to chat on. 

Now if I can only get Neil to fly over for our 10th ansy open house. It would be complete.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Speaking as someone who also grew up with Cape Gauge and has a Gage tree currently in bloom in the garden... The problem of scale and gauge is alive and well in the small pubs on a Sunday Afternoon here in the UK... I model in two gauges and four scales. *As such I am considered very conservative by other members of my "group"*. Let me introduce you to some of the "singular" combinations that have fanatical following -sometimes even of two or more people(!) 

"V" is a 16mm scale with a track gauge of 115mm -used in THREE places to build and run Brunel Broad Gauge live steamers. 
"T" is a 16mm scale with a track gauge of 57mm -used to model Cape Gauge rolling stock, (more than TEN known layouts running). 
"QR" is a 12.5mm scale on 63mm track used to model Chinese and Russian rolling stock -ONE running and TWO under construction. 
"J" is 11.5mm scale used on a track gauge of 64mm to emulate "Irish, Indian and Iberian" rolling stock. ONE rumoured in Cork Ireland TWO in Scotland. 

There are the "associations" such as the "National 2.5GA" who do not mind the scale as long as it runs on 2.5inch gauge track.... 

regards 

ralph


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