# How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada



## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

Does anyone possess information regarding the number of individuals actively participating in this hobby? It doesn't matter what scale (1:19.7; 1:20.3; 1:22.5; 1:24; 1:29; 1:32 Electric or Live Steam). It would be interesting to have an estimate of the number of participants with an error band attached to that estimate. If someone has this information it would be most useful to many individuals and organizations.

Please contact me if you have any information regarding this question.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

in the U. S. and Canada 
i would not dare to estimate. 
for europe i read an estimation based on locomotives sold. (sorry, at the moment i don't remember where) 
The LGB Stainz alone has been sold more than 2 million times. 
the other LGB locos plus the locos of other manufacurers have been estimated for another 3 million locos sold. 
after discounting those, that might have ended as toys or in the thrashbin, they made an estimated guess of eight to ninehundred thousand "G-scalers" in the EU.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

I wouldn't dare estimate either.

For what it is worth there are over 6,500 members of "The 16mmNGM Assoc", "G1MRA" has a *very* large number of members and at the other end of the scale(!) "The Gauge '3' Society" has less than 200 members. 

*This is in the UK alone....*


If you are trying to gauge(!) a potential market for a product you would be better advised to consult a directory of clubs and associations and then feed it into a spreadsheet.


regards

ralph


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Rochester, NY has 40 members in the Genesee G gauge Club.. 
and I know of a few others locally who are not in the club.. 
so lets say 50 total in Monroe County..(Greater Rochester area) 

Monroe County has a population of 735,000. 

the USA and Canada have a combined population of 340,000,000.. 
If Monroe County is typical, that equals 23,000 Large Scalers in the USA and Canada.. 

VERY rough estimate! 
and probably totally meaningless and innacurate..but its something anyway.. 

the real problem of course is I have no idea how many large scalers there actually are in Monroe county..
it could be 100, not 50..
but 50 is my best guess.. 

based on those LGB numbers stated above, 23,000 seems like a very low estimate..
although most people own multiple locomotives of course..
so more locomotives are sold than the total number of hobbiests..

Scot


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

I believe that Garden Railways has a circulation of approximately 40 thousand... There's no way to get exact numbers, but an educated guess is that the number is more than 40 thousand, but less than 60 thousand. As an interesting side note, MLS reaches roughly half that audience per month.. We've still got some growing to do.. Where are all your friends???


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Add GG and myself to those numbers Shad, our layouts are in progress ;-) 

-Will


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

I thought I was the only one in my area with a garden railroad. As it turns out, alot of garden railroaders appear to be hermits. I built a traveling modular layout that I take to area shows, as it turns out I have discovered over a dozen garden railroaders within a few miles of me. One guy actually lives about 100 yards away. I drive by his house daily but never would have known he had a layout until he approached me at my modular layout. Sales would be a great place to start for figuring out a number but then again alot of people have "shelf queens". I think the other problem in counting them is alot of garden railroaders tend to be in the upper age bracket (sorry guys didn't wanna call ya old) and don't use/have a computer so they aren't in touch with others. 
Terry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Terry, 
I think you are right. Ron said he was surprised, at a Utah GR meeting, which Shad is a member of, that many members did not know about this site, or have a computer. I think there are about 25 layouts in Nebraska. My rough guess, guys around Omaha would have a better idea. I think the hermit thing must fit me also!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Yep agree with Terry. found out after joining the club here there in GA there are 5 of us in my town and not far apart. Of course are members are located in several states. Later RJD


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

I think you are right. Ron said he was surprised, at a Utah GR meeting, which Shad is a member of, that many members did not know about this site, or have a computer.


When I go to the club meetings, I go as a member, not as someone with an agenda to get people to come to my website. What's funny is a few members have come to the club after finding me on MLS...  

One thing that I have found while talking to folks at the different shows that I've attended is that there are a lot of people that have computers and are just afraid to use them..  Many of our members initially had the fear, but soon they become addicted and can't stay away..  There are some who don't use computers, and some that don't know that we're even here. The growth of MLS, especially in the first few years, has been a result of word of mouth. It's you the members that invite your friends and fellow club members to the site. Those that stumble upon us through search engines or other means end up staying because of the community..


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Posted By Engineercub on 04/22/2009 10:37 AM
Add GG and myself to those numbers Shad, our layouts are in progress ;-) 

-Will


Yup... and Will, our layouts are setting the G-scale construction standards for North America eh???????????????????

LOL









gg


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Shad, 
It would be interesting to track your membership applications to see if you get spikes after LS train shows. When our club set up our layout at the FT Worth GTE in Feb we put out about 30 MLS info sheets. All were gone by the end of the show. 
Our club in OKC has about 7 active members, however I know of at least 10 other layouts in the area. 
Steve


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

I belong to a club in Delaware that has 40 members. I accidentally heard of the club through a newspaper article showing one of their members running trains for an open house. Much to my surprise I found three of the club members lived less than 5 miles from my house and I lived here for two years before I found out. I met someone at a library book club a month ago that has a railroad in his back yard and he is less than two miles from my house. Just goes to show you that there are a lot of garden model railroaders that don't connect to clubs or web sites. 

John


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Posted By paintjockey on 04/22/2009 10:50 AM
I thought I was the only one in my area with a garden railroad. As it turns out, alot of garden railroaders appear to be hermits. I built a traveling modular layout that I take to area shows, as it turns out I have discovered over a dozen garden railroaders within a few miles of me. One guy actually lives about 100 yards away. I drive by his house daily but never would have known he had a layout until he approached me at my modular layout. Sales would be a great place to start for figuring out a number but then again alot of people have "shelf queens". I think the other problem in counting them is alot of garden railroaders tend to be in the upper age bracket (sorry guys didn't wanna call ya old) and don't use/have a computer so they aren't in touch with others. 
Terry

I don't think the manufacturers try to make an appeal to a lower age group. I'm 25 and in the hobby but judging from ECLSTS, I'm rare. There is no aspects of technology in the hobby yet model trains as we know today are in large part due to computer nerds messing around with them! Large Scale seems to be the best at actively trying not to market themselves to grow the hobby. But that's just my opinion


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Interesting.. 

and suggesting more of a cult than a "fad" 

Thus catering to a select group? 

gg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

If that is true then it is the ONLY area that is not catering to the youngster! 

As an oldster that is feeling very left out... please leave it be! 

I find it strange that when I was young and had no money, the older people were the ones catered to... now that I am older and have some money to spend, it is all about the youth... the youth that, today, just like when I was young, have no money to spend on that catering!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

LOL...

relate +

gg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Define "active" and "railway"? I HAVE a cute little scenicked indoor layout, but I haven't run a train on it in MONTHS. OTOH during that 'dormant' period I've scratchbuilt or kitbashed 4 locomotives, fitted a snowplow to a 5th, scratchbuilt 3 log cars, a side door caboose, and started putting American style airbrakes on 3 LGB 2 axle boxcars. PLUS annoyed everybody with updated build logs, and other discussions on paint and details in the model making forum. 

My 8 YO has an R-1 loop of track, 2 buildings, and some toy cars on the carpet in her room, she runs trains every time she's over (about every other weekend) 

I'm not sure EITHER of us fit the definition you're looking for.-- And what about "armchair modellers" who buy stuff, build stuff, read and research everything, but don't have a place for track? Do they fit anyplace? I have a buddy in Cali like that. At the moment he's trying to research a 19th century bakery in hopes of eventually bringing a kit to market. (Probably in HO to start because it's cheaper to produce, and has more potential customers)

As for 'individuals and organizations' "benefiting".... how? Marketing strategy? The last 4 years have been BRUTAL for most anybody in the hobby business. Expensive toys are pretty much the first luxury to go in a tight economy, right after long vacation trips. People IN the hobby, hunker down and either play with what they have, or build. New people who MIGHT have joined, often find a cheaper alternative. Sadly, I seriously doubt the people who already HAVE hard sales numbers, like GR, B'mann, Aristo, USA, etc., would be charitably inclined to SHARE them with potential new competitors, either.

If you know someone looking to get in the hobby biz JUST to make barrels of money, my advice is *FORGET IT! * If, instead, they are passionate about the hobby, and have time and money to spare on a BIG gamble, and are willing to put up with a BUNCH of fussy, sometimes obnoxious, people nitpicking their product and pricing, while in the process of making some great lifelong friends and either breaking even or going broke slow, then the lack of hard numbers won't stop them anyway. 

About the only thing large scalers ALL agree on is we could use a source for less expensive track. (We DON'T however, agree on material, rail height or even tie spacing!) 

As for the "contact you" part, you ask not only for people to GIVE you something, but want it delivered? That doesn't sound very friendly, friend. You might consider actually actively joining in the community BEFORE expecting housewarming gifts 


YMMV (your mileage may vary)


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

"armchair modellers"

yes, i strongly agree. they must be a big group. 
back in germany i knew a couple of persons, who were "closet modellers". 
they attended shows, they subscribed magazines, they bought lots of things. 
sometimes they showed their treasures to friends. 
being asked about making a layout they said, "maybe, when i'm older and got more time..."


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

In my club, half the members do not get Garden Railways. 
Many more are out there than we know about. 

Even though I have mostly American rolling stock, I have 3 European style Stainz, and 3 Americanized versions. Many garden railroaders I know have 3 or more of these great running engines. 

So, I feel the numbers suggested are very conservative, but we will never be certain of our guesses.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Posted By kormsen on 04/23/2009 4:37 AM
"armchair modellers"

yes, i strongly agree. they must be a big group. 
back in germany i knew a couple of persons, who were "closet modellers". 
they attended shows, they subscribed magazines, they bought lots of things. 
sometimes they showed their treasures to friends. 
being asked about making a layout they said, "maybe, when i'm older and got more time..."


that has been me for the last 8 years..
I have bought quite a lot..
2 live steam engines,
6 electric diesels.
4 electric steam engines.
probably about 10 pieces of rolling stock..
but I have yet to build an actual garden railroad!
mostly because for most of those 8 years I didnt actually own a yard! 
I lived in apartments..

I guess im on the "younger" end of the scale too..I was 32 when I started in Large Scale..im now 40..
many of the younger "arm chair" modelers simply dont own real estate yet..
so they buy rolling stock, build models, but dont have an actual garden railroad simply they dont own land for a garden..

thats probably a larger demographic than we think..its good for the hobby, but doesnt count if you are only
counting "Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways " 


and it seems people of my generation are "getting married, buying the house, having kids" at much older ages than in the past..
these days most people sail completely through their 20's living like they did in College..single and in small apartments..
many people dont buy their first house until their mid 30's...My wife and I were both 37 when we were first married, and bought our first house..
(neither of us had been married before, or owned a house before)
didnt plan it that way..it wasnt a concious decision..its just the way life worked out.

Scot


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Posted By NYC Buff on 04/22/2009 8:55 AM
Does anyone possess information regarding the number of individuals actively participating in this hobby? It doesn't matter what scale (1:19.7; 1:20.3; 1:22.5; 1:24; 1:29; 1:32 Electric or Live Steam). It would be interesting to have an estimate of the number of participants with an error band attached to that estimate. If someone has this information it would be most useful to many individuals and organizations.

Please contact me if you have any information regarding this question.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff




You didn't include 1:13.7 on O gauge (32mm) track outdoors


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## devious10 (Jun 20, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Is there a "where are you from thread " on this website? i tried searching it but do not have very much luck with the search feature here... I know this is only one of the G scale sites on the net but it seems like the most informitive one. i would love to interact with other site members that are in my area.When my railroad is done i dont want to get bored with running trains by myself!


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2009)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Is there a "where are you from thread " on this website?
there is even a map. 
...somewhere. i forgot, where it is, but i'm sure, somebody else will remember. 


thats probably a larger demographic than we think..its good for the hobby, but doesnt count if you are only 
counting "Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways "

what is active, or inactive? 
if i'm not mistaken, torby got no layout, but would you call him inactive??









ehem... 
korm


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

To give a different perspective ... the OVGRS ( www.ovgrs.org ) has a great many members - and why not, a member only has to proclaim interest as there are no dues. But the OVGRS has at least 25 active members who own some large scale equipment and who come out often to operate on Fred Mills' IPP&W. But there are only Fred Mills, David McCurdy and myself who have actually laid track and built a layout. That leaves almost 90% of the members as being active large scalers but not railroad owners.

I am sure that other areas have perhaps more rairoads in operation compared to the number of large scalers but it does suggest that estimates are difficult. Most of the large scalers in the OVGRS are also active in smaller scales usually HO (Lionel and tinplate has no inroads with this particular group) so have no idea what they would say to a question that asks if they are an active modeller in some scale.

Regards ... Doug


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## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

The term active means participation in any of the scales listed on the original posting. Please include 1:13.7 on that list. Participation means having a layout indoors or outdoors, collecting locomotives and rolling stock, belonging to a club and operating on the club layout. Layout means fixed or modular railroad in any of the mentioned scales or mixes of those scales.

The estimate based on the members of a club in New York state is interesting but would be confounded by an estimate made using the limited information that I have available for the state of Michigan. Approximately 100 known in the state of Michigan. Michigan has a population approximately 9.2 million. That results in an estimate of 3700 active in North America. A considerable error band exists with those two estimates bringing into doubt the validity of either estimate.

Perhaps a solution is to have an organization do a census. That organization could be someone with an interest such as a retail/wholesale outlet, a magazine, a manufacturer or a club. My preference woud be a club. Knowledge of the size of a hobby may spur more activity by individuals wanting to enter the hobby and by organizations supplying the hobby. The activity being mutually beneficial.


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

*RE: How Many Active G Gauge Garden and Indoor Railways Are There in the U. S. and Canada*

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04/22/2009 10:05 PM
If that is true then it is the ONLY area that is not catering to the youngster! 

As an oldster that is feeling very left out... please leave it be! 

I find it strange that when I was young and had no money, the older people were the ones catered to... now that I am older and have some money to spend, it is all about the youth... the youth that, today, just like when I was young, have no money to spend on that catering!

Well the only group that can become old are the young ones haha. In any event, it is like a catch up type of thing or rather reacting. Aristocraft just came out with a new product that has 1980s technology. Perfect for those who were in their 30s in 1980. But they reacted to the need well after the fact that people wanted something new. It is likely this translates into people just never entering the hobby because it is hard to relate (like someone who is 40-50 getting into a club about music made in the 20s..as an example). Instead, if Aristocraft and others advertised for a larger demographic and applied to a larger demographic using their products (ie via technology) than you'd see an increase in the amount of modelers. Some other scales do it better than others and G-Scale is by far the worst.

And of course everything is catered to the young....those are the ones you can influence. Makes perfect business sense to me  Why should model railroad companies suffer haha.

Anywho, just my opinion and I mean nothing by it.


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