# Allegheny



## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Been running some big engines of late.
These include some artic's from both Aster and Accucraft. 

The spirit fired Allegheny and the gas fired Bigboy always seem to perform in an effortless manner whereas the Accucraft Cabforward, whilst OK seems to need a bit more love and attention.
Pressure always has to be worked on and you are never absolutely sure that both burners are lit until there is a pressure drop.

Like wise with the the axel pump and closing the by pass will make the C/F 'puff' a bit harder.
Get a big load on with a couple of track curves and even on the smallest of gradiants will slow the engine down whereas the big Asters run easily in the same scenario.

Now there are a couple of circumstaces here.
I have seen Cab forwards performing with the best here, but not without some modifications. Secondly, these big asters are incredibly expensive.

The question as I see it; yes you would expect the more expensive models to peform better but is there room for a 'quality plus price' scenario here. I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??

Check out my pal's Allegheny here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfi1beBaFcI


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like a candidate for you, Charles and Ryan.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Well, this is a good posting and a good question as long as the answers will be to the point, focusing on Cab-Forward rather than generic "you get what you pay for" stories. I have seen several videos of Cab-Forwards pulling formidable consists. But I have also witnessed frustration by my fellow live steamers who tried to get their Cab-Forwards to pull themselves. What is the secret? Are some messed up while others are OK? Or do they all have to be doctored in some way to perform properly? I hope we will get some answers from owners! Best wishes, Zubi


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By main131 on 23 Oct 2009 03:54 PM 


The question as I see it; yes you would expect the more expensive models to peform better but is there room for a 'quality plus price' scenario here. I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??

Check out my pal's Allegheny here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfi1beBaFcI


I'm a little confused what " I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??" means and why Zubi then said "Well, this is a good posting and a good question _as long as the answers will be to the point, focusing on Cab-Forward" LOL








_ 
Accucrafts can be modified to perform very well.

Check out my pal's Accucraft Daylight:


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

That Allegheny is Awesome. Thanks for the great video. I just saw a real one at the B and O museum in Baltimore a week ago. That is the biggest locomotive I have ever seen. The live steam video is really fantastic. thanks.
Paul


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

main131, 

You said: 

"These include some artic's from both Aster and Accucraft. " 

Sorry to be dense, but what is an "artic"?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By main131 on 23 Oct 2009 03:54 PM 
Been running some big engines of late.
These include some artic's from both Aster and Accucraft. 

The spirit fired Allegheny and the gas fired Bigboy always seem to perform in an effortless manner whereas the Accucraft Cabforward, whilst OK seems to need a bit more love and attention.
Pressure always has to be worked on and you are never absolutely sure that both burners are lit until there is a pressure drop.
*Our modified CF's can run with consistent boiler pressure with a slight drop to 55 psi with axle pump engaged. Having both burners lit will effect the pressure. Our setup uses cotton in the jet, screen in side the holder. Make sure the jet holder must be clear as well. We also use a mirror to see the burners in the smokebox to ensure both are burning properly. Secondly, make sure that the gas tank has warm water or as we have done install a heater line to the tender. * *Make sure the dry pipe is open**, we have found the opening can be reduced due to cutting process.*

Like wise with the the axel pump and closing the by pass will make the C/F 'puff' a bit harder.
*That is true as with most engines but with better efficiency and ensuring of a proper strap tolerance. In finishing a retrofit CF we found that the rear engine was restricted by the limiter and valve box pipe size. . So, when the front engine was loaded down combined the more restricted rear the engine began to work harder.
*

Get a big load on with a couple of track curves and even on the smallest of gradiants will slow the engine down whereas the big Asters run easily in the same scenario.
*We re-work the suspension allowing for more motion. Secondly, the pilot truck needs centering springs. There is a limit to "tight" turn for the engine due to the lack of good lateral motion in the front and rear engines. 
*

Now there are a couple of circumstances here.
I have seen Cab forwards performing with the best here, but not without some modifications. Secondly, these big asters are incredibly expensive.
We have submitted to Dwight the overview of retrofits for the Informational Thread. I am not sure when Dwight will put it online.[/b] 


The question as I see it; yes you would expect the more expensive models to peform better but is there room for a 'quality plus price' scenario here. I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??
Given the[/b] *cost of upgrades and the results **for a properly performing CF **would be much less than the cost of Asters Big Boy/Allie. Yet, there is a limit to the design that probably needs reworking to be more Aster like.*



Check out my pal's Allegheny here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfi1beBaFcI










Zubi
There are improvements that would common to all the CF's: tuning, jets/burners, dry pipe, pilot truck pin,etc then there are potential problems such as the cross heads and finally performance/efficiency upgrades such as functional combination levers.


Here is the modified CF with an impressive run:





Dave
Thanks for the posting of the TRS modified Daylight which speaks to the point the first two Accucraft SG big steam engines had needs. 


Thanks to Dick Abbott the CP Hudson was "modified" prior to final production


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

artic = articulated


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

David, right. Main131 made a statement, and I also do not understand what this means "I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??". So let me ask the question, split into three grades to make things simpler, "do stock Cab-Forwards require modifications 1) to perform at all 2) to perform at a reasonable level (say 40 axles, whatever is standard in standard gauge... I do not know) 3) to perform at the level of Allegheny/Big Boy?". So that is my question. Thanks to everyone willing to provide to the point answers, I would really like to get some insight to pass it on to some fellows here who own C-F's. Best, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 23 Oct 2009 07:22 PM 
David, right. Main131 made a statement, and I also do not understand what this means "I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??". So let me ask the question, "do Cab-Forwards require modifications 1) to perform at all*- All CF's can perform to some degree to which some owners find to be just fine but others expect "Aster"like big engine results.* 

2) to perform at a reasonable level (say 40 axles, whatever is standard in standard gauge... I do not know) *-We have had CF's pulling the full set of Accucraft Daylight coaches(150lbs), 50 freight cars (200 axles)easily and 25(100 axles) wet easily. If we get the opportunity we will setup a long, long pull but recently the weather has not be in our favor. * 3) to perform at the level of Allegheny/Big Boy?"- *Not without a boiler/burner redesign as confirmed by Dave Hottman combined with mod's initiated by Gordon Watson. Yet, if one compared the CF to the most recent Allie/Big Boy UK match up the CF is in the ball park. *. So that is my question. Thanks to everyone willing to provide to the point answers, I would really like to get some insight to pass it on to some fellows here who own C-F's. Best, Zubi


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Can't speak about the CF, but do have experience of other big gauge 1 locos. My conclusion is that simplicity scores over size and complexity and that the two cylinders machines generally do better than the big articulated machines. My Daylight (Accucraft modified by Charles/Ryan) and Berkshire pulll very strongly and will do better with 30 (120 axles) heavy coal trucks than my Allegheny where I have had constant problems getting balance between the two engines and the front engine often slips and wastes a lot of steam. The AD60 pulls well and seems to have a better load distribution between the engines. The BR92 Mallet is impressive to watch but more show than content imho...... 

Keep thinking about the CF but never quite get to decision point so this is an interesting thread. 

Robert


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 23 Oct 2009 07:54 PM 
Posted By zubi on 23 Oct 2009 07:22 PM 
David, right. Main131 made a statement, and I also do not understand what this means "I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??". So let me ask the question, "do Cab-Forwards require modifications 1) to perform at all*- All CF's can perform to some degree to which some owners find to be just fine but others expect "Aster"like big engine results.* 

2) to perform at a reasonable level (say 40 axles, whatever is standard in standard gauge... I do not know) *-We have had CF's pulling the full set of Accucraft Daylight coaches(150lbs), 50 freight cars (200 axles)easily and 25(100 axles) wet easily. If we get the opportunity we will setup a long, long pull but recently the weather has not be in our favor. * 3) to perform at the level of Allegheny/Big Boy?"- *Not without a boiler/burner redesign as confirmed by Dave Hottman combined with mod's initiated by Gordon Watson. Yet, if one compared the CF to the most recent Allie/Big Boy UK match up the CF is in the ball park. *. So that is my question. Thanks to everyone willing to provide to the point answers, I would really like to get some insight to pass it on to some fellows here who own C-F's. Best, Zubi 
Charles, thanks, but it is not always clear to me when you refer to stock CF and when to modified ones, and in that case I am not always sure which mods you have in mind, I know GW gear mods, but could you please point me to DH mods? Like I said before - which brings us to Ad 1) - I have seen one CF struggling to pull itself, with both burners on and sounding like two mighty Ruby's... reportedly the same CF run 'fine' at the previous steamup, I have never seen it running again so I wonder what is the variable determining this "some degree" which you refer to. When we go to Ad 2) - do you refer to stock CF's that you had visiting? Now Ad 3), this consists of negation "Not..." and confirmation "Yet,..." which I failed to untangle. Many thanks! Zubi


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zubi, 
try this instead of 'yet'; 'Not without x, 'although' if compared to.... y and z, it's close'


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Section One (Inform Section MLS): Cross head/Guides

*Part 1 - 530kb*
*Part 2 - 614kb*
*Part 3 - 832kb*


On our website in the "shop work" section: http://www.realsteamservices.com/shop-work/ there is a link entitled:Cab forward upgrades mechanical
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/charles/Accucraft Cab ForwardSection2leverscylinders.doc 
Cab forward upgrades mechanical


Other areas we have done is to redesign the oiler for separate lines to each engine, place the by pass outside the cab, remove the limiter, enlarge all the steam lines, increase the pipes and ports both front along with the rear engine block, increase the size of the dry pipe, heater line to the water bath, dog bone flex joint to rear engine,etc.


Zubi 

There are critical changes, functional changes, practical changes and no changes if one wishes to be satisfied with the stock performance of 30 cars at a speed/power over Donner Pass. If one is to believe that our gauge one engines are scale representations of the real thing then one should not expect the CF to match the Big Boy, Allie. Just start with comparison of the drivers and go from there....


But if one wants to have a fully functional, high efficient and properly setup AC-12 then some work has to be done to a stock locomotive.


Bottom-line: the stock locomotive has been denoted at DH pulling 4lbs but a modified one (Dave Hottman) over 10 lbs. Dave's boiler change is listed in MLS which was to increase the flue size and thus burner (my guess to match his enlarged cylinders) but overall the enlarged flue/burner would be more efficient in making steam in the large boiler.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Charles, thanks a lot! I will look into all the mods which you listed when I have a bit more time. Now my next question is - assuming that Dave Hottman's ratings are correct, will the second run of Cab Forwards (expected 2010, Accucraft time), incorporate all the necessary changes to improve the rating of a stock locomotive? Or will it not, and if not, why? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS we just had a discussion on the appearance and many posters agreed they'd not want to pay more as they hardly notice, although some argued that 'correct' appearance would not need to cost more. But this question and this entire thread is about performance.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, Charles, et al: 

great thread, reafirms my motto, take what you get and make the best of it, or better. 

Charles, 

I've read your posts, checked your site and I smile. Take a $6k loco, tweak it a bit and be close to an Aster, way cool. Perhaps a "giant loco challenge" is in the future, doc can host and the longest drag wins. I digress, as a relative noob (into my 2nd year now), I really appreciate what you and so many others have to say and share, thank you. 

post script: And Accucraft is doing a 2nd release of 25 CFs, cool...


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm a little confused what " I would also Daylights and Royal Hudsons here??" 

Should have read.. I would also' include' Daylights etc etc


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 23 Oct 2009 10:45 PM 
Charles, thanks a lot! I will look into all the mods which you listed when I have a bit more time. Now my next question is - assuming that Dave Hottman's ratings are correct, will the second run of Cab Forwards (expected 2010, Accucraft time), incorporate all the necessary changes to improve the rating of a stock locomotive? Or will it not, and if not, why? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS we just had a discussion on the appearance and many posters agreed they'd not want to pay more as they hardly notice, although some argued that 'correct' appearance would not need to cost more. But this question and this entire thread is about performance. Zubi
"This thread is about performance." You are correct and so is our quest with our engines. Thus the changes, in particular the combination levers along with upgrade of delivery system to the rear engine:

Dog Bone Flex Line Upgrade 

As to the new cab forwards, Accucraft states on the web site: 
Adjustable hydrostatic lubricator
Hand water pump located in tender, 
new design with reduced size Axle driven pump, new ball design 
I cannot speak for Accucraft in their upgrades. I know what the cost factor for a complete upgrade is vs. the cost of the new release and they are comparable. 

I must clarify the DH results as DH stands for Diamondhead international pulling contest. " 

I do know of one "stock" engine that was tuned by Accucraft which runs well. 


Kent 

Perhaps a "giant loco challenge" is in the future," When we get the parts ready, start and complete the conversion of AC-12 to AC-9 we would be glad to enter both in such a challenge, would be interesting.


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be fair to the Cab Forward here is a video taken by hobbysteve of of my C/F running on the same track in similar environment.
This engine has had no extras work on it and looks pretty good!
At the time of the run I had the axel pump switched back into the tender to give the least resistance option and no extras cold water in the boiler. 
This has helped with the pressure of course and has intermittently lifted the safety valves. 
Yes there was plenty of water in the boiler but a decision is going to have to made pretty soon to get that by pass closed and oh, check the water in the tender. When open, these C/F pumps are powerful enough to drain your tender sooner than you think!
I still might get the mods done but don't be put off buying one. These are terrific models....they just need to be driven properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSihzhp4Xw0


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 24 Oct 2009 07:16 AM 

I cannot speak for Accucraft in their upgrades. I know what the cost factor for a complete upgrade is vs. the cost of the new release and they are comparable. 







Charles:
I think I understand what you are saying but can I confirm. 

The cost of a complete CF upgrade would equal the cost of a new (second release) CF or about $8,000? In other words, the total cost of an upgraded first release CF would be, the cost of a first release CF (~$7,000), plus the cost of a second release CF ($8,000), for a grand total of $15,000. ???


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I think what Charles is saying is; the cost of a first release, about $7,000, plus the upgrade, about $1,000, is equal to the second release of about $8,000.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 24 Oct 2009 07:16 AM 
Perhaps a "giant loco challenge" is in the future," When we get the parts ready, start and complete the conversion of AC-12 to AC-9 we would be glad to enter both in such a challenge, would be interesting.

And when this happens, it'll be on a large and level elevated layout with a hundred+ 1:32 cars on hand and quite a few people standing by with video and still cameras anxiously waiting to cronicle the moment. Perhaps it can even be promoted as a PPV (Pay Per View) event; is Don King free? I'm gonna say Fall '10 and no, that isn't accucraft time.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 24 Oct 2009 11:20 PM 
I think what Charles is saying is; the cost of a first release, about $7,000, plus the upgrade, about $1,000, is equal to the second release of about $8,000. 


Dan:
Well my feeble math came to same conclusion initially. Followed by the higher conclusion wondering how $1000 would begin to cover all the work Gordon Watson, Ryan and TRS invests in their total package of Cab Forward upgrades. In their SitG article a year ago Charles and Ryan described a two stage rework process:

#1:
Side soldering rods
Steam pipe work
Pilot truck modifications
Rings
Gas and oil moidifications

#2:
Combination levers
New slide valves
Expansion links
Valve box and rod work
Port cylinders
Expansion link work
Crosshead modifications
Timing 


Some other things Charles mentioned above seem evolutionary in their rework and not included in those lists:


Dog Bone Flexible Steam Joint - to this unskilled viewer, a heck of piece of work in itself. 
Addition of a second throttle, replacing the steam balance valve, and some other backhead work.
Suspension
RC?


As I said, there's my attempt at the math.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris
First let me emphasize that Dan's quote was an introductory summer special offer that quite a few people have found agreeable. Secondly, this is a hobby, we are offering reasonable services allowing a better/improved/upgraded or repaired product without causing the customer to forgo the many other aspects of enjoyment that surround model railroading. Truth be told our prices fall somewhere between commercial and bespoke manufacture: to price out the 4 stages of a complete rebuild it would cost about $2300 for the full upgrade taking about 90-100 man hours to break down, retrofit and rebuild. Then there the time invested in troubleshooting and testing ensuring the engine runs to it's full potential when it leaves our shop. 


Bottom line even for $1000 over cost (if the final cost of the second run is $8k), we make a little money and the customer gets their monies worth! 


Maybe one day we will be of service to you....


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Charles.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I have my engine at the shops of Triple R Services. When I sent it to have the modifications done I neither asked when it would be done or how much it would cost. (I did know there was an introductory price being offered.) I have received many pictures and descriptive E-mails on the progress. Your comment "how $1000 would begin to cover all the work" is not out of line. Do remember, the number of modifications will determine the cost. Have your car washed, $20, have your car detailed, $200. 

I think what Charles was referring to: 
“As to the new cab forwards, Accucraft states on the web site: 
Adjustable hydrostatic lubricator. 
Hand water pump located in tender, new design with reduced size. 
Axle driven pump, new ball design. 
I cannot speak for Accucraft in their upgrades. I know what the cost factor for a complete upgrade is vs. the cost of the new release and they are comparable.” 

So I said, the difference between the first release and the second release is $1,000.


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