# Newbie with big LGB/DCC Project—need advice



## ctadds (Dec 15, 2013)

I’m building a large LBG layout in my basement (North Georgia) in conjunction with finishing the basement, and strategically using the train layout to hide some HVAC ductwork to avoid having to drop the ceiling. The final layout will be about 32’ by 16’ with 4 interconnecting loops (none reversing) primarily dictated by the layout of the rooms and the ductwork. 

I have had LGB for years, but only set up temporary layouts using DC power. My daughter-in-law’s father (deceased 20 yrs.) was really into LGB, and so we have combined all of the stuff he had (houses, bridges, tunnels, and scenery), and are also doing this as a tribute to him.

We have 6 LGB engines, a lot of rolling stock, and enough track to do the job. I’m looking at DCC systems, and frankly, don’t know where to start. I’ve read a couple of books on the matter, but also want to be able to accommodate the most current technology with the least amount of hassle, but also want to be flexible enough to accommodate future developments and wishes. Cost is always a consideration, but time is not of the essence, so I can start off slow and build up as time goes on.

The good news is that the walls are unfinished, and the electrician will be coming in soon. I want to lay out my wiring now so I have access to it when the time is right and be able to build on it as time goes on. From what I have learned so far, this is what I am contemplating:

1. Use 12 gauge twisted wiring for power, allowing for soldering the wire directly to the track at 3 foot intervals or so. Trying to decide between solid or stranded, and if I should look for pre-twisted or twist myself.
2. Not sure if I need a second pair of wires for lighting, ect.
3. Considering the size of the layout, it would probably be wise to break it into power blocks. I am considering 4 at this point, but may do more based on number of switches.
4. I will likely install some conduit in the wall where my control station is to accommodate any future wiring changes that may come up. I will be able to easily access this from a sub-basement.
5. I’m considering having the electrician setting up a separate circuit for the system.
6. I’ve looked at several DCC systems, and really don’t know which one to choose. I have read that Digitrax is easiest to use with JMRI, and has less problems on larger set ups, but still not sure.

So, keeping in mind that I am new to all of this, is there anything that I should or should not be doing at this early stage that will make my life easier in the future? Obviously, the wiring of the system is key, so any help here will be most appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1) Feeders every 3 feet will be _way_ overkill. Most folks don't bother with multiple feeders unless they're doing 100' + of track. It depends largely on how many rail joints you have. If you're using sectional track (and short sections), then you could have a joint every 12" to 18" depending on the track. That's where you have the potential to lose voltage. You're not going to lose voltage to resistance going through the rail (which has a FAR larger cross section than 12-gauge wire). But even with lots of sections of track, using good solid rail clamps instead of the slide-on railjoiners that come standard with the track will go a long way to ensuring proper electrical conductivity without needing more than just a few feeders. (You could solder the rail at the joints, and you'd probably only need one feed point for a layout the size you describe.) 

2) You wouldn't need a 2nd pair of wires. Just tap off the rails and you're good. 

3) With DCC, the only time you need to worry about power blocks is when you're going to be drawing more current than your command station or booster can handle at any one time in a given block. If you're only going to be running 4 locos at any one point in time, conservatively, you'd maybe want two blocks. I'd probably put two loops on the output of the command station, then use a booster for the second two loops. I'd recommend a 10-amp system the command station and booster, but I'm jumping ahead... 

4) Is this to be on a shelf, on the floor, or where? Most folks who do indoor lines just run the wires under the benchwork of the railroad, saving the need for conduit, etc. 

5) Can't hurt, but I don't know that it's necessary. 

6) Lots of options to choose from. NCE's 10-amp system is used by a fair number of folks. Zimo, Digitrax, Massoth, Piko... they all get pretty good marks. If you ask me, the most important aspect of any DCC system is the handheld throttle. That's what you'll be using to interact with your trains. If it's cumbersome or non-intuitive, it's always going to be a struggle. I don't know how easy it would be for you to get your hands on a throttle, but if you can, I'd recommend test driving the system. It doesn't have to be large scale. If there's a small-scale club or modular group in your area, there's a good chance they're using DCC or at least know someone who is. You'll want a system that can handle at least 10 amps, which most manufacturers offer. In terms of voltage, most large scalers gravitate towards 24 volts, but you only really need that if you're running modern trains at fast speeds. Without knowing which LGB trains you have, I'm guessing they're narrow gauge steam locos, so my bet would be you'd probably not ever feed more than 10 volts to the motor before they're flying down the track at unprototypically breakneck speeds. So don't discount the cheaper DCC systems like the MRC "Elite" 10-amp system just because it doesn't output 24 volts. I use it's older "Prodigy Advance2" cousin, which only puts out 15 volts to the track. Since I run narrow gauge, and since the railroad on which I've got the DCC hooked up is all of 15' from end to end, I don't need more than that. 

You don't mention whether any of your LGB locos come with "MTS," which is LGB's version of DCC, albeit very basic. Presuming your daughter-in-law's father bought these locos a good number of years prior to his death 20 years ago, my bet would be not. But it wouldn't hurt to make sure. 

Later, 

K


----------



## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hello,

I am building an indoor layout and had a LENZ LZV100 command station from an O-gauge set.
I have now changed to an ESU ECoS2 command station. Look into it. It is easy to use and has a multitude of possibilities.
Two throttles and a color touch screen.

I am running 4 wire 12 gauge wire. 2 for DCC power feeds and 2 for AC. You will need the AC for other decoders, i.e. switches or other accessories.

TOM


----------



## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

I agree with just about everything said so far, although personally I do run a separate pair of wires for feeding DCC accessories and lighting rather than simply taking feeds directly from the track: this way you can swap the tracks back to DC for visiting non-DCC locos, whilst keeping switches etc. still under DCC control. Some folk sometimes recommend having the accessory DCC feed on its own power district, so that if there's a track short the switches etc. will still function. 

I'm an NCE user myself: I like the throttle design and user interface and it was a factor in my choice of system, but you should really try and visit shops and other DCC users and try their systems before you make a decision. NCE Power Pro works just fine with JMRI.


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I've been running a loop of track 70 meters long with no power concerns. I think feeders aren't typically needed indoors. If I needed feeders, I'd use household wire, if for no other reason than I have a big coil of it. 

I prefer to use separate power for lighting, since it otherwise drains the capacity of the DCC system. I also like being able to dim lighting (it's especially important if you want to take pictures that have a good balance of lighting to the train.) I haven't bother powering G switches yet, but in my Marklin DCC system it lost the ability to trigger the switches with eight to ten trains running. 

If you want wire behind walls, you can just leave lengths of string, and use that later to fish thru wires. 

I'm leaning toward either Massoth or Zimo DCC, though they are so expensive I've held off buying a system entirely for now. I'm interested in whether anyone develops a smartphone / WiFi based DCC; piggybacking on these mass-produced consumer electronics using open source technology seems like the future, and I don't want to sink several thousand dollars into a dinosaur. I've also held off because I know I want to run live steam, and steam with DCC is probably the worst combination.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi, and it sounds like you're going to have a lot of fun!

I'm running the 10-amp NCE Power Pro with a Meanwell power supply, and am quite happy with it. My layout has about 200 feet of track, one power district, 3 main feeder sets (middle and at extreme ends). It's a new layout though, not much use yet, so I'll bow to the more experienced guys on this one. Anyway, you might start out with the one district, and try to max things out and get some hard evidence that adding more would make a difference (since adding a new power district seems easy enough to do). 

I'd keep accessory circuits separate, for big / constant consumers (lights). But for switch machines (low power, intermittent use), I don't see why not to run them off rail power, if they're set up for that (especially if you plan to use DCC-controlled switch machines). For lighting, I imagine you'd want to feed them something like 12v DC anyway.

If you've not been there already, a great resource is http://www.elmassian.com/dcc. 
Also the Yahoo NCE DCC group, http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NCE-DCC/conversations/messages 

Cliff


----------



## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi,
I am using LENZ switch decoders. They require DCC input for the signal and a separate AC feed for power (feed for 2 coil switches - 3 wire output).
For LGB and other DC switches you only use the + & - outputs but have to wire diodes to these.
I don't know about other decoders.
TOM


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

FWIW, I'm using the Train-Li switch machines, which have 2 wires that are connected to the rails. They are commanded via DCC.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm interested in whether anyone develops a smartphone / WiFi based DCC; piggybacking on these mass-produced consumer electronics using open source technology seems like the future, and I don't want to sink several thousand dollars into a dinosaur. 

Here is a very nice unit, just brought out for use with the Massoth central station--uses the Raspberry Pi microcontroller with Rocrail software and wifi: 

http://www.dcc-control.de/ 

Many of the European systems are set up to handle smartphones/tablets for control if you want to go that route, or automation. Personally I use LGB MTSIII central station with Massoth navigators because I like the navigator handheld better than anything out there. The backlighting on the keys and screen is great too... 

Keith


----------



## ctadds (Dec 15, 2013)

YOWZA! What great replies, and fast too.

To answer questions above: 

All locos except for one are more than 20 yrs old, so I'm going to be wiring those from scratch.
The track is going to be sitting on shelving that lines the whole area about 7 feet off the ground. The layout is 2 large rooms seperated by a walkway which is defined by 4 posts that support the floor above. The ductwork runs over the walkway and along 2 walls. By covering up the ductwork, setting the track beneath it, and being creative with the scenery, the rest of the ceiling can stay at a 10 foot height.
I considered hiding all the wiring, but now I'm more inclined to just lay it between the track and the wall just to make it easier to get to.
I found some wire here and am trying to find out what the makeup of the silver wire is, but it is audio, so I'm assuming it's pretty good.

Re feeder lines and joints—thanks for the tip. I found some information on building a resistance solderer using an old battery charger and a footswitch, so once I’m planning on soldering a good bit of the smaller sections together, and maybe all of the joints. I’ve got several pieces of larger track as well, but figure with that amount of track, soldering will save me a lot of hassle in the long run. I can probably tie in the feeders at the same time. One idea I had was to just solder a length of copper wire along each track when combining the smaller sections. This would cut the number of solder joints by half for those areas. All that being said, I am seriously reconsidering my wiring layout. I'll have roughly 200 feet of track total.

Re conduit—this would only be where hard wired cab would be, mostly for esthetic reasons, but also to give me access to the wiring if I need to upgrade it for any reason, and it is coming up from below, so the run would be pretty short.

Re dimming lighting: Never thought of that—Great Idea! If I do that, can I just use some 12-3 Romex wire and hand twist it or is that too much of a hassle?

Re Fun: Yes, I am looking forward to this. The best part is that my daughter-in-law has also blessed me with 2 grandsons who (surprise, surprise) are also into trains (as is my son), so it should be a pretty neat and ongoing family affair.

Thanks for all the info. I’m still digesting a lot of it, and am sure I will be back for more. I have some time before I have to make any decisions on the DCC equipment. If you would like, I will keep you abreast of how the project is going along, although I’m sure it won’t happen fast.

Craig


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, in the early days (very recent for me!), it's kinda like taking the proverbial drink out of the fire hose, ha ha! 

Just one thought about what you said,

Re conduit—this would only be where hard wired cab would be, mostly for esthetic reasons, but also to give me access to the wiring if I need to upgrade it for any reason, and it is coming up from below, so the run would be pretty short. 



Speaking from the NCE perspective (that's all I know), if you go DCC, it's mainly like you need a shelf or cabinet for the gear, because the cab is a handheld thing, either on a coiled cable or wireless. FWIW, that's why I chose NCE, because of the wireless throttle DCC. 

Cliff


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Most any LGB loco would draw 1 amp or less. So you can run all 6 of your locos at once on one 10 amp power district. Lighted passenger cars can add up, led's are the answer for them. Power feeds depend on the quality of your joints from rail to rail. With perfect connections one feed would be adequate. One in 50 feet would be realistic. The NCE PH10R is a good value. Gives you 10 amps and wireless. I like and use Massoth, but on the high end. Digitrax is popular in HO and N, but personally I don't care for the system. The best decision can be made if you can get hands on some different systems and see what you like the best.


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I did twist-join wire at the time, but I was a child with exactly zero money. Today I would be more professional, and safer. It's also important to me to be able to disassemble / reconfigure the railway rapidly. I used regular 110 volt house current for lights, in HO at the time, and would do so again in large scale. It's especially good today with compact CFL and LED lighting, much cooler and lower amperage. Safety with small kids may factor into your concerns, though, that I don't worry about. I see those solar-charged walkway accent lighting used in large scale too, especially to simulate lampposts in garden railways. 

If your railway is above eye-level, no reason not to lay the wires alongside the track. You can also cut or route a notch on the underside of the track (takes seconds on a table saw), or into your tables beneath where the track will lie, and that leaves a path for wires which keeps them in place and is somewhat visually hidden. As said, though, I would not use feeders unless a problem developed (though my track is new, and therefor may have better conductivity.) 

We always like updates and pictures of people's railways!


----------

