# Finescale 1:32 coaches



## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

This is a duplication of a Forum post I made to the "Rolling Stock" group.

I am considering purchasing some of the 1:32 scale Harriman coaches made by Finescale Locomotive Co. in the UK. 
Finescale's owner is unable to provide me with the names of US customers due to his privacy policy, so that I might personally inspect Finescale's products or understand any potential issues.

If any of this forum's readers have experience with or own any Finescale products, I'd really appreciate a return message. You are welcome to use my email address ([email protected]) if you don't wish to respond to this Forum publicly. 

Since I am contemplating purchasing 6+ cars at $1500 ea, I'd really like to see some of Finecale's products and understand any quality or delivery issues before I order.


Thanks


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

All you needed to do was ask in the first place. I would doubt any business would be at liberty to disclose personal information unless you had a warrant. While this is the live steam forum, you might get more responses in here


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

I have some second hand Rhinegold coaches and have run US Heavyweight coaches at Staver's. 
Remember these coaches are very heavy


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Jim, 
Jeff is asking about Finescale Locomotive cars. 
You seem to be talking about J&M cars. 
They are NOT the same. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Jeff, 
Why don't you give Geoff Spenceley a call, I believe he was the Finescale Distributor in the US at one point. I know he had a rake of Finescale GWR Supersaloons which he ran behind his King. I'm sure he will be able to answer your questions. 

Rob Meadows


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks, Rob.

I have swapped emails with Geoff and Jim Stapleton as well.

I'm still hoping for locate someone who actually owns some of the Harriman coaches. I think that the late Rick Runyon had some as part of his nice Southern Pacific collection but I haven't found out who purchased them from his estate.


Jeff


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jeff 

Rick's cars probably ended up back in the UK with most everything else on "the wall". I own the GWR cars that Geoff had and someone else got the Southern coaches. Most folks in the live steam hobby spend there $$$ on "yet another locomotive" and not so much on high dollar rolling stock.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeff, 
I remember having a conversation with Neil Rose when he was first thinking of making the Harriman cars and wanted to make sure that I wasn't also going to be building them. 
From what I recall, I think that it was Rick Runyon who convince Neil that they would be a good seller. 
Since that time, I have never seen any other than those that Neil has had on display, so you may find that you get no response from any owners, because there may be very few! 
Just a thought. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## bertiejo (Aug 11, 2008)

Since Finescales primary market is in the UK I would ask for feedback from the forums there. This wont help you in terms of actually eyeballing their products in person but you can probably get a pretty good idea about the quality etc and most likely get to see pictures of their products. bertiejo


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Finescale Locomotive Co products = Rolls Royce cars/Rolex watches/Fine Art Models. Tablecloths? Crockery, napkins and rings and cutlery'? Fabric-covered seats? In Gauge 1? I don't think that you'd have any problems with quality issues. 


tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## gaugeonebloke (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi Jeff

I'm based in the UK and was fortunate to pick up a pair of second-hand Finescale Harriman coaches last year in good condition. I own a open compartment carriage and a baggage/open compartment carriage, both in plain green. 

Looking at the "baggage-comp" I note:
The rivet detail is excellent - similar to that in the period photo below. Presumably this is a brass etch. There is a nice recessed door for the baggage area. The interior is spartan with rows of beige seats arranged in pairs either side of the isle. I have seen similarly spartan period interior photos so these are OK. There is a lot of roof and undercarriage detail.

I find Neil Rose of the Finescale Locomotive a pleasure to do business with and am not affiliated in any way. I have bought around 8 new coaches from him over the years. He even re-glued the seating in a coach which I had picked up second-hand free of charge !


To avoid disappointment, I suggest you 1) work out which coaches you need to make up your six coach "consist" 2) order a single coach from Neil (I suggest the baggage/compartment) in your chosen livery, and if happy, order more. It will cost you more in postage but that way if you think the second batch coaches should have minor changes, Neil may be able to accomodate them. You may wish to check with him that the glues he uses will stand up to the Californian sun - I'm confident he will have thought if this before. 


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...mp;bih=677



http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...=1t:429,r:6,s:15&tx=97&ty=45&biw=1024&bih=677


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Simon, 
Please accept the following as helpful information, not as a lecture! 
I know that you are in the UK, but as you are modelling North American you must learn the 'correct' terminology and try not to think in 'English'!!!! 
The 'open compartment carriage' would be normally referred to as just a COACH in Harriman terms, although some railroads would call these CHAIR CARS. 
Unlike the British railways, for day use there was not the use of OPEN and COMPARTMENT coaches, all seating only cars were indeed open, but the compartments were used in the sleeping cars, where they were converted between seats for day use, and beds for night use. 
The 'baggage/open compartment carriage' is referred to as a COMBINE, being the combination of half COACH and BAGGAGE car. 
Having said all this, they are 'your' trains, so you can really call them whatever you wish! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Jeff Williams (Jan 8, 2008)

I greatly appreciate all of your input and ideas.

I've decided to order one car from Finescale and then if everything works out, order the remainder at a later date. Mr. Rose at Finescale said that that will deliver the car in December 2011 or January 2012.


I imagine that with Accucraft and Aster coming out with new Southern Pacific and Union Pacific locomotives in the next year or two, that there will be demand for suitable passenger cars.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

TBH, I don't think that Mr Rose will suddenly be rushed off his feet with orders at $1500 a pop. But hey, you never know! 

There certainly are quite a few folks on this site for whom ordering a ten or fifteen car train from him would be like buying a Big Mac for the rest of you. 

tac


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

there will be demand for suitable passenger cars 
From what I hear, there's always been demand for suitable passenger and freight equipment to go with our lovely steam engines. 

There was a thread recently where I suggested asking MTH to make some older heavyweights as an alternate to their streamliners. With a bit of coordination, we should be able to come up with an order for 100 cars at $200 each?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 17 Jun 2011 11:49 AM 
there will be demand for suitable passenger cars
From what I hear, there's always been demand for suitable passenger and freight equipment to go with our lovely steam engines. 

There was a thread recently where I suggested asking MTH to make some older heavyweights as an alternate to their streamliners. With a bit of coordination, we should be able to come up with an order for 100 cars at $200 each? Now that's a good idea, and one I second. A set of CPR heavyweights behind my Royal Hudson at only $200 per car is a lot more achievable than the admittedly fine option, now that it seems that Aristocraft are not making them many more.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
POH101TLAS


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 17 Jun 2011 11:49 AM 
there will be demand for suitable passenger cars 
From what I hear, there's always been demand for suitable passenger and freight equipment to go with our lovely steam engines. 

There was a thread recently where I suggested asking MTH to make some older heavyweights as an alternate to their streamliners. With a bit of coordination, we should be able to come up with an order for 100 cars at $200 each? 
Pete,
I'm not sure about your math.
I kind of think that that will not even begin to pay for the injection molds, even in China.
I would have to think that MTH only starts to produce in the thousands of shots per mold.
I may be wrong, and your idea is great if that is so.
Perhaps you have been in touch with Mike already. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
A quick check on MTH website would make it doubtful that a run for heavyweights could cost 10x the present offering:

MTH passenger cars


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, there do not seem to actually BE any heavyweights of suitable style.....they would have to be started from nothing. 

Hence the costs noted by Mr Leech. 

Hmmmmm. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
POH101TLAS


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 18 Jun 2011 03:51 AM 
Ah, there do not seem to actually BE any heavyweights of suitable style.....they would have to be started from nothing. 

As did everything else in their product line, at some point. The question is, would they sell enough of them to make it worthwhile? Seems like a lot of us would buy them, myself included, but I can see how the appeal of 1:32 heavyweights beyond the live steam fraternity might be somewhat limited.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

David Leech is absolutely on the money. As someone with first-hand experience of manufacturing high impact plastic rolling stock in Gauge 1 (Northern Fine Scale), I have to say that VERY few people have any concept whatsoever of the enormous costs of making molds for 1:32. A mold just for the body only of a heavyweight (no roof) is very complicated (translate also as costly) and will weigh about 400lbs. That size of mold has to be strong and heavy to withstand the enormous pressures of the plastic injection process, if it isn't it will just blow apart!!!! Ejector systems and cooling galleries are a big headache also. 
I could go on and on, but even having moulds made offshore will still put a heavyweight coach tooling costs at least $200,000 these days. To put it simply......notgoingtohappen.com You'll just have to make do for now with MTH undersize streamliners until full length 80 footers become available. Failing that, I've seen lovely Aristocraft Heavyweights that have been narrowed down on the benchsaw, lowered using scale Gary Raymond wheels and close coupled with Kadees, very convincing. 
David M-K


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GaugeOneLines on 19 Jun 2011 05:16 PM 
David Leech is absolutely on the money. As someone with first-hand experience of manufacturing high impact plastic rolling stock in Gauge 1 (Northern Fine Scale), I have to say that VERY few people have any concept whatsoever of the enormous costs of making molds for 1:32. A mold just for the body only of a heavyweight (no roof) is very complicated (translate also as costly) and will weigh about 400lbs. That size of mold has to be strong and heavy to withstand the enormous pressures of the plastic injection process, if it isn't it will just blow apart!!!! Ejector systems and cooling galleries are a big headache also. 
I could go on and on, but even having moulds made offshore will still put a heavyweight coach tooling costs at least $200,000 these days. To put it simply......notgoingtohappen.com You'll just have to make do for now with MTH undersize streamliners until full length 80 footers become available. Failing that, I've seen lovely Aristocraft Heavyweights that have been narrowed down on the benchsaw, lowered using scale Gary Raymond wheels and close coupled with Kadees, very convincing. 
David M-K DMK
You are correct, it is costly but MTH, Charles RO (USA), Aristocraft all have done the process prior and the resulting merchandise has not been 10x the cost. I agree that the economy and start up cost are prohibited so we make due given that David no longer makes coaches, Alan Wright offerings have been limited and Accucraft (despite a the interest and possible success) has not indicated any future plans leaving such with one new offering by Pete Comley. I have seen the MTH shorties combined to make an 80' car. Also, modified Ro (USA Trains) can do well with 1:32 locomotives.



Berk and coaches


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

If you come to The Summer Steam-up in Sacramento your will see a very good heavyweight that will be offered at a reasonable, maybe high for some, price.


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## gaugeonebloke (Aug 18, 2008)

Bit late a reply I know! David Leech - your reply was funny and helpful. I'll have to remember not to take an electric chair car if I visit the US on holiday. BTW, am thinking of selling out of Southern Pacific (Cab Forward + 2 finescale coaches) and going Virginian + Norfolk and Western via Accucraft. @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Those 1/32 scale heavyweights are beggining to look like Herman Melvilles famous white whale, now with this economic downturn who kows if we will ever get to see them? The problem is really complex, if you go like neil rose and J&M before him, with the high cost of photoetching you end up with Finescale type prices. Which isn't justified really because the trucks are not sprung at that cost I think its a crime, as much as I apreciate his products and the man himself. Also I find his coaches quite thinly built, J&M seem to me to be much sturdier (and much too heavy for us runners, I mean I am not a shelf queen adict). This said they are quite finely detailed, and the economics of building in those materials are that there wont be any other friendlier price. No good for us who run. MTH as I posted elsewhere, it seems, would be pulling out of the G scale market (or at least the 1/32 scale one) which is somewhat tragic for 1/32 scale, as it was to the US market what Maerklin was for us over here on the continent. the only real solution was what David Leech was producing. Now I am atempting to make some heavyweights , using his basic technology, but ading rivets and strips of rivetted aluminium (offset sheets) epoxied on to aluminium bodies. This seems to make a very sturdy and realistic car, yet lightweight. However it is not a comercial proposition as it does involve too much labor, but individually one can do it. If someone explains to me how to post a photo on this forum, I can show my first effort a B60 baggage car. Keep at it 
Simon Duhamel, the Pennsy nut from France


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Simon,
Allow me, as you have sent me the photo of your excellent looking PRR B60 baggage car.
Looks really good.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada








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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Mr Leech 

That B60 looks a lot like the two I got from Dan Kern Valley about three years ago. Resin castings for most of the car.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well Jim, it 'should' look the same, if it is a model of the same type of car.
This one though is very much aluminum, and Simon has done a great job adding rivet detail.
Here is a photo that he sent me after he had just started it. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David 

Sorry. I should have written my comment above differently. I think Simon's car looks very good, especially since he appears to have gotten the truck side frames correct [as opposed to the ones in the "under construction" photo]. The Kern Valley cars I have are very close to correctly dimensioned, and comparing Simon's finished car to them was meant as a compliment.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I own one of Neil's Nord Coaches, and have ordered some more because I want to have a Nord limited to run with my Nord engines. It is quite sturdy although my friend Chris Ludlow doesn't think they are as sturdy as the J & M ones and they are not sprung like the J & M ones which at that price range, I think, is a bit of a shame. Chris has two Nord coaches and a Hariman RPO which he seems quite happy with and runs often. They are of etched brass construction the roof ends may be white metal or resin (I havent scratched the inside to find out). With many cast details added which are very good. He recently turned out the French OCEM postal car which is a staple for french modelers and I know of one person who owns one as well as some Nord coaches (I scratched built mine). As David says most Gauge one fans want to spend their money on locos which is a shame as the train is almost as important to have that visual effect. I find some of the missmatch I see most often at steam ups and videos a sad sight, almost as bad as seing oversize people riding behind 31/2" gauge locos on concrete blocks. A railway had caracter, it's engines usually had a family resemblance and so did the cars, signals, structures, track work etc. I find the complete picture much more interesting than just the loco itself. This year I have devoted a good deal of my modeling time to make significant signals for my line. It's part of the picture. I'm a set designer in my active career. My practice is to make the cars I know won't probably be produced commercially and buy what is available commercially when I can. It saves time.


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