# Red Box devotee thoughts on F scale......



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

I have been into LGB since 1985, courtesy my wife and my first red and cream starter coach for a birthday gift.

Over the years, as my income increased, so did my acquisition of LGB.

I am truly a train lover, and my first love has been US narrow gauge, but the euro trains also intrigued me.

I have always been more or less joyful in having LGB. Early on, mostly due to frustration, I abandoned my need for accuracy -proportion, paint, details, and did so because that was what was available, and, I had become so accustomed to herky jerky temperamental n scale, that the lGB reliability and smooth operation were glady accepted in exchange for its shortcomings. There was also a certain joy in not worrying about what was 'right', and I do know the difference.

So, now with a lot of LGB and POLA stuff, which I really love and a very small bit of which I have attempted to repaint, detail etc, I have discovered 1:20.

I recently indulged and added to my first run 38t shay, which I ran off and on after replacing its original defective trucks. It was delicate and huge and could not be risked to possible inclement weather. This loco left a bad impression, as this first run version ran for me about 2 hours until it failed, and then I had to purchase new trucks after attempting a major rework of the bad one. It runs beautifully now. I swore id never buy another Bachmann product.

This year, however, after seeing Kevin Strong's modded C-19, I really wanted one. I bought the new Climax with sound, too.

Of course, having the C-19, nothing looked quite right, even with my LGB "sense of proportion and compromise" so, I added the Bachman caboose and an AMS combine and AMS drop bottoms to start. And a few 1:20 figures from Ozark.

Well, to get to the point, I have been spoiled. Like many things that one gets accustomed to, there are things you simply overlook or ignore.

I love the correct proportions, the sheer length of the cars in relation to the loco, and the impact that these trains have. They look almost real, run nicely, slowly, giving the visual sense of the rolling mass of a loco, albeit they are all far less tolerant of crappy track work, and are so detailed.

A word of warning to those like me. While I still love my LGB, and some of it is indeed very well if not perfectly proportioned, it is hard to go back once you get used to having things right, in the sense of models. I have always seen LGB as a wonderful characature, and been fine with it. In fact, it was this aspect of "modeler's license" that made/makes it so fun. And, from an engineering standpoint it emphasized 'practical reality' of allowing for tighter curves and smaller space, normal care and handling, and simple practical functionality. This was and is, an endearing characteristic. 

The detail of these new items is inspirational to again do serious modeling, and, I am still deciding if this is a plus or minus. I know too they are extremely delicate and , not weather tolerant at all, both of which are inconvenient, and which I am not sure how I will like this long term. I tend to shy away from things that take a lot of mandatory management.

Proportion and accuracy were something I totally abandoned in G scale by choice and necessity. LGB for the most part, rarely offered anything in proper paint, no less, type, proportion etc. I got accustomed to it, and then embraced it as one of the great toy train systems, like lionel or marklin etc. For me, while a decent modeler, I have been lazy and prefer ready to run and easy to handle offerings, and chose not to scratch build for the most part.

Only time will tell how these new toys perform. 

For the time, however, I am really impressed with how they visually intrigue me running in my garden. 

One thing that does worry me, is that parts are not always available for these somewhat pricey pieces, and Bachmann has been simply awful in terms of its communication and response to my recent inquiries. I had better not need any parts, ever.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve

I know your problem. Been there, doing that. I started with LGB in 1980. My problem came when they started making "modern" rolling stock in a smaller scale 1:29ish. The style didn't match my narrow gauge stock, so I added a diesel or two. Then Aristo and USAT came out with some really nice 1:29 stuff, some of which found its way to my garage. I was happy and brought out the 1:22.5/24 stuff or the 1:29. I rarely if ever had them both out at the same time.

Then Bachmann came out with the 2-8-0 Connie. I thought that looked nice and got one. At that time I thought that the LGB narrow gauge cars were 1:22.5 and the USAt and Delton NG cars were 1:24 as advertised. That was about a 10% difference between the LGB and the Delton/USAt cars and it wasn't a noticeable difference, so I thought that the 10% difference between the LGB and the Connie (1:20.3) wouldn't be to noticeable. Man was I shocked when I hooked up the Connie with the LGB freight cars. That is when I measured the LGB cars and discovered that they were closer to 1:24. That explained the visual difference. The scale difference was closer to 20% than the 10% I expected.

I happily added a third scale to my roster, 1:20.3. I still run all three scales, but not at the same time.

Enjoy the new scale and from my experience the newer Bachmann Spectrum products are on a par with anyone's.

Chuck


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve & Chuck,
I was one of those 1:22.5 scale guys, too. Mostly LGB, but a few other narrow gauge cars from USA, Bachmann, etc. I have always stated that when LGB was making the Mogul, Jackson-Sharpe passenger cars, etc., no one was stating, "Well, they are the wrong scale!". We were happy to get some narrow gauge trains that looked very good (and, yes, I know they were not 1005 accurate in detail or scale). I said I would NEVER convert to that expensive and larger correct scale of 1:20.3. However, with the introduction of Bachmann's C-19, I was hooked. Like both of you, I have a rather large collection of 1:22.5 equipment and still very much like and often run it (most non-train folks can't really tell the difference). I do not run the different scales on the same train. Thank you two for your comments. I feel they are well stated!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ted

Things and attitudes change over 35 years. As I always say, where would we be in this hobby if it wasn't for LGB (probably in the basement or garage with an HO or N gauge table). Right scale or wrong scale they opened the door, to get us outside and I'll forever thankful for their contribution to our part of the hobby.

Chuck

There are times when I wish that the LGB detractors, understood the entire product line: rolling stock, spare parts, help, and repair. Scale be damned, they look good and ran and ran. 

The level of parts and service is greatly missed. Too bad some of our current manufacturers don't understand the whole picture.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys;

Be VERY CAREFUL! You are already on the edge of a steep and slippery slope. Whatever you do, DO NOT attend any steam-ups! I thought I would get just one little live steamer to try out. Perhaps in three or four years, I might get a second live steamer. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! Within two years and three months, I had FOUR of them!

I thought it would be fun to indulge my love of J. R. R. Tolkein's writings by building equipment for an imaginary railroad set in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth, and called the Brandywine & Gondor Railroad. I can't stop! It's addictive!

The photos below show the magnitude of my degradation as I slide closer and closer to the jagged bottom of that slippery slope!



























































































Don't let this happen to you. Stop while you still can!

Oh, and by the way, . . .
Have fun,
David Meashey


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave

Thanks for the reminder. I've been there and almost done that. Having watched a lot of steamups, I've been been tempted. My layout is on the ground, having watched the live steamers tweak their charges on an elevated track, there is no way I could do it on the ground.

I'm impressed with them, but reluctantly, I've decided that it isn't for me. If someone wants to give me a Berk or a Big Boy, I would reconsider.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> There are times when I wish that the LGB detractors, understood the entire product line: rolling stock, spare parts, help, and repair. Scale be damned, they look good and ran and ran.
> 
> The level of parts and service is greatly missed. Too bad some of our current manufacturers don't understand the whole picture.


I TOTALLY AGREE!

Variety is the spice of life but...

I was curious so I bought an Aristo LS Mikado. It runs great but so far I have run it less than once a year.

I bought a used Bachmann Connie but it would not fit through the hole in my house to get outside so I sold it to a friend. It broke within a week.

I could not resist the beauty of a few Accucraft, LGB WP Mikado, USAT & MTH metal steamers, but then I got a great eBay deal on a MTH Premier O Gauge Challenger (WOW). Unfortunately she packed it very poorly and it was destroyed in the Mail (not their fault). 6 months later I got my money back but I spent those 6 months thinking and trying to figure out how I could fix that beautiful loco and not have to return it. Then I started wondering what I would do if I dropped any of my G Gauge metal locos. 

Who would fix a damaged (fill in the blank here)? It would cost a fortune to ship them back to the manufacturer - would they even have frame & running gear parts anymore (I doubt it). What if something fell off somewhere on the layouts?

They are darned heavy and hard to pick up and put correctly on the tracks. I have to carry them down a flight of stairs then down the outside steps to put them on the tracks.

What is the correct way to pick them up? What would I do if I dropped one of them or it fell from the layout to the ground?

Heck I would not even risk selling a metal loco. Even though I have the original shipping containers, what would I do if something was significantly damaged (not destroyed) in shipment?

Finally I realized and accepted that I am an LGB, Aristo & USAT guy. Plastic toy trains are all that I am willing to risk picking up, carrying around and putting on the track. Also the tough LGB plastic is what a guy like me needs. I think my LGB, Aristo & USAT toys will outlive me.

Everyone else can have the other stuff. Live Steam is too much effort for me. Heavy metal is too heavy and too delicate for me. 1:20.3 is too big for my house and too big for me. 1:32 is too small for me. LGB size, Aristo size & USAT size is perfect for me. Too much detail means tiny parts that fall or break off.

I miss LGB and LGBoA and hope Ron can resurrect LGB as we really need it. I hope someone eventually brings Aristo back and I hope that someday USAT gets around to making MoPac coaches again but meanwhile I intend to enjoy the toys I have and not worry about what I don't have.

Actually I like ALL the stuff and hope everyone keeps making it and selling it. I just like some things better on my layout and some things better when I see them on someone else's layout.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well you express my sentiments as well, as usual Jerry.
I pick up and carry my Bachmann stuff one at a time, and support from the bottom.
I picked up the caboose, from the top, in a normal grip, and, low and behold one of the window awnings came off-typical......but, I reglued it, and know better now.

I have to say, for anyone from Marklin who might lurk, it is so critical to have the product support, given the current pricing. I have a brand new Saxon IVk, the 0-4-4-0t sound version, the one with the funky front to back cylinders, very cool loco, so odd. missing a water hatch cover. cant get one. so, I made one that's passible, but its not stock, which I prefer. this is a $1K plus loco, still in production, and I now pause to buy such items, for the very reason you express Jerry.

as for the live steam thing, its kinda .....a mood thing for me. it has its ceremony of pre-run, the prep, cleaning and lube, tighten all the screws, water, oil, fuel, light up, etc, and then, for me with grades, the nail biting of getting the oompff and curves balanced to avoid disasters on the down grade. the Frank S is great, and im going back to R/c on iy, due to this.

electric locos are always ready, never run away, place and play, instant gratification, freezing cold or summer hot, windy or calm, no tool box to tote, as simple as the off /on switch.

live steam, well, its another thing entirely, real independent drive by steam, a different mental trip. but, never a quickie.

the Roundhouse SRRL is a superb and fun to run loco, with R/C


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

too late!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Steve,

I guess the LGB F7 See-Thru's were the eye opener for me. When I first saw them I thought "what idiot would want a locomotive you could see through and diesels on top of it???"

Then LGB put them on a fantastic close out (OK- you knew I was cheap). 

Before I knew it there was and ABBBBBBA running around my layout - flashing lights and all. 

I fell in love with it - full sound and flashing lights from all 8 units. 

It was dumb. It made no sense. It was so illogical I strained my brain to come up with the idea that it was an Interurban Commuter Train and the "B" units were coaches.

Finally I realized and accepted that I am just a big old guy who has fun playing with big plastic toy trains so - if it's FUN - it's OK with me.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well Jerry if you would ever consider parting with one of your Bs and let me know via an email, id be mighty happy. I never see them nowadays.

I have the clear A, and I too thought ??????.

Then I saw a marklin HO version, and I thought, how Teutonic. It added, somehow a perspective of 'legitimacy'...others must like this kind of thing too.

I wonder which maker was first in the market, as this was way before the Acquisition.
I tend to think LGB, because of the mars flyer and its flashy lights and fortuna flyer, surfing Snoopy, etc. I have never seen whimsy from Marklin.

I bought mine, because I love lights, and, as I have tried to explain to the Holy Rivet Counters, what makes it lovely, is that it appeals to non-train types, kids, and, me!
I think they are a hoot to watch, they are unique in all the wolrd of trains, to my knowledge. Moving through the garden, or, around the xmas tree, they are a sight.


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

That was one of the "very confusing things" that I noticed when I started in G Gauge, infact, the very first thing that I was corrected on was my use of the term G Scale ... now I know why that was.

I am by no means complaining BUT the how many different scales are there, 5(?) make trying to buy stuff a tad difficult for us newbies. The way I get around it (for the moment) is to stick with USAT for my diesel and the rolling stock for it and Piko/LGB for my steamers and the cars they will pull. I think I am right in saying that Piko and LGB have the same scale.

As for taking the plunge into the larger scales - only if I win the multi million dollar lottery, and that aint likely


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

wombat457 said:


> That was one of the "very confusing things" that I noticed when I started in G Gauge, infact, the very first thing that I was corrected on was my use of the term G Scale ... now I know why that was.
> 
> I am by no means complaining BUT the how many different scales are there, 5(?) make trying to buy stuff a tad difficult for us newbies. The way I get around it (for the moment) is to stick with USAT for my diesel and the rolling stock for it and Piko/LGB for my steamers and the cars they will pull. I think I am right in saying that Piko and LGB have the same scale.
> 
> As for taking the plunge into the larger scales - only if I win the multi million dollar lottery, and that aint likely


Back when I started in the hobby I was (still am) corrected about many things. My personality is such that I react very negatively when anyone attempts to "correct" me about anything.

The way that I see it the purpose of the English language is for one person to communicate a thought to another person. If that thought was communicated, the conversation was successful.

If a third-party wishes for me to communicate with him in his language I consider that discourteous. After all these are my toys that I bought with my money so I incurred no obligation to anyone for anything when I bought them. This is just a hobby to me so it means no more to me than toys to a big kid (me) playing with my toys in my sandbox.

Of course this is heresy to some people who take this hobby very seriously and take great pride in making sure they do everything as precisely as humanly possible. I wish them well but their values are not my values and never will be (no offense intended) - I just don't care and never will. The Model Railroaders tend to not like me. If I was a Model Railroader I would probably not like me either so I understand and respect their viewpoint.

To this day I hesitate when the words scale and gauge are used. Frankly I prefer LGB's sliding scale where a Mogul may come out to 1:22.5 and a Mikado or F7 may come out to 1:26. For my large hands a 1:22.5 Mogul and a 1:26 Mikado or F7 are all PERFECT and I voted for that with my pocketbook. For me I find 1:24 and 1:32 to be too small and 1:20.3 too large but I am happy for those who like them because they too found what they like. 

How many scales are there? The best answer may be that there are as many and more scales as there are (and have been) manufacturers because many manufacturers produced in multiple and varying scales. Assigning a scale to a brand does not necessarily mean that that brand's models are true to that scale.








All are Large Scale except for bottom left which is MTH O Gauge.

1:20.3 - some newer Bachmann Spectrum, some Accucraft
1:22.5 - some LGB (not sure about Bachmann 4-4-0 & 4-6-0)
1:24 - Delton, Aristo-Craft Classic, Hartland, Model Power buildings (maybe Pola & Piko), Lionel(?)
1:26 - LGB Mikados & F7s
1:29 - some LGB rolling stock I think. Some USAT stuff, some Aristo stuff
1:32 - MTH (buildings as well as trains) some Accucraft (I think), possibly some Aster, 45mm track
Kalamazoo?
Marklin?

There is probably a mistake or two above. That was just what came to mind as I wrote it.

Personally, I don't know or care what is politically correct (my money remember). For me I consider G Gauge to be 45mm track and G Scale to be anything that runs on 45mm track. Large Scale? Must include everything but I guess F Scale may disrupt nomenclature a bit.

How important is this? I guess it is no more or less than it is important to you?

Perhaps the question is whether you are a Model Railroader or if you play with toy trains?

No matter what you do someone will criticize you (if you listen to them). Ask yourself whose money you are spending?

Dealers will happily accept your money and not care about your terminology. 

If you really want to know about prototypical accuracy - try counting coach windows. Find a Jackson-Sharpe coach & compare a window count to LGB & Bachmann or Delton. Then play window counting with heavyweights and streamliners from LGB, Aristo, USAT & MTH. 

I you are having fun you are winning the game. If you are not having fun you are forgetting that it is just a game.

As for Piko and LGB - look again.

I think you will find Piko is smaller. Unless I am mistaken Piko makes a Mogul that is noticeably smaller than an LGB Mogul. I have never seen it so I don't know how my LGB coaches would look to me if they were being pulled by a Piko Mogul.

A friend bought some Piko stuff and he really likes it. He is planning to buy more.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> well Jerry if you would ever consider parting with one of your Bs and let me know via an email, id be mighty happy. I never see them nowadays.


Hi Steve,

I was fortunate that I told a friend about the LGB sale and he bought an A & B unit. I was more fortunate that he put (probably) thousands of hours on his and wore them out - then gave the worn out units to me. I managed to find replacement parts and got the locos running again so they became my future spare parts inventory but they just run so nice I will probably keep running them as switchers (they look a bit old after years sitting outside in the sun and weather but someone forgot to tell them they are not supposed to be able to do that.

I guess you will have to wait for me to die before mine turn up on the market or on eBay. 

On the other hand if you ever pass through Arkansas I have an almost new Aristo Live Steam Mikado (with Aristo and LGB Mikado sound units   ) that is just sitting in the box waiting for someone who appreciates Live Steam to come and buy it. I might even sell the like new Aristo PRR Heavyweights that I bought for use with it.

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Jerry stay healthy, I am fine with my flashy A unit.

I too tend to use the broad brush G scale, large scale, to include larger trains that can run outside. While it is great to know the distinctions and offerings, this presumes someone is as familiar as an enthusiast. When speaking with 'normal people' who don't know a jot about trains, g scale or garden trains, are descriptions they can easily grasp.

I guess historically too, G scale I think, was coined by LGB, and for many of us who entered before there were competitors, this is something we accepted, as you note, trains that run on 45mm track, be they gauge 1 or gauge 3.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It was "G scale" for me for many years. It was hard to say "G gauge". I think that I have crossed over the bridge, but occasionally, I will slip and fall off. Old habits are hard to break.

Chuck

Years ago I was in Nicholas Smith in Broomall, Pa and they were having a super close out deal on the see through F7 ABs. I got the pair, thinking I might need them for parts, as I wasn't too impressed with them when they came out. I've been using them at our Christmas show ever since. They are a big hit, almost as much as Thomas! So much for the parts.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Steve,

In my opinion LGB built the market based on the fact they were selling toy trains. They owned the market they had built so it was profitable for them and they could afford to provide fantastic customer support (LGBoA). It was also profitable and perhaps easier for LGB to make multiple versions of the same products in a generic mode with little focus on whether a PRR K4s might be different from a Pacific. They just left the Pacifics to Aristo-Craft who did well with them because no one else was making Pacifics - and they never made a 4-6-0 or a 4-4-0 leaving it to Bachmann to profit from making them.

I never particularly wanted a Mogul or Forney (freight locos - UGH) or wanted to pay LGB prices so I bought a Pacific and some 4-6-0s and even 4-4-0s but my layouts and experience dictated that they all went away (to multiple states and multiple countries where they were much appreciated) and now there is not a single Pacific, 4-6-0 or 4-4-0 left (OK let's forget about that K4s).

Since all LGB Moguls, Mikados, F7s etc. are virtually identical, the parts tend to be interchangeable and the parts availability is a lot better. I for one am very grateful because had they been more prototypical, finding parts would probably be a real nightmare.

I can appreciate those wanting other, more accurate models. An Accucraft K4 or USA Hudson or Big Boy are far more visually appealing but at what difference in production cost, durability and parts availability and customer numbers willing and able to buy them?

LGB baked a huge wonderful apple pie but it has been cut into so many pieces and smaller pies baked in every fruit imaginable that it has become very difficult to find a decent bakery anymore.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Chuck
> 
> Years ago I was in Nicholas Smith in Broomall, Pa and they were having a super close out deal on the see through F7 ABs. I got the pair, thinking I might need them for parts, as I wasn't too impressed with them when they came out. I've been using them at our Christmas show ever since. They are a big hit, almost as much as Thomas! So much for the parts.


Hi Chuck,

I had a plan, a plan, a plan...

F7 Warbonnets were huge, beautiful and expensive (too expensive for me). My plan for the See-Thru's was to have a local dealer repaint them to Warbonnet colors but I fell in love with the flashy things running in my dark crawl space (especially after I received a present of some LGB dealer decals for them). 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/F7ST3.wmv

Years later I traded some MTH O Gauge trains to a dealer for his USAT F3 Warbonnets - and then Aristo came out with the Chrome E8 Warbonnets so I sold off the FA/B-1 Warbonnets to pay for the E8s. Someone (I won't mention his name) once told me they could take a bunch of bricks, paint them as Warbonnets and they would sell like hot cakes.

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

stevedenver said:


> I have been into LGB since 1985, courtesy my wife and my first red and cream starter coach for a birthday gift.
> 
> Over the years, as my income increased, so did my acquisition of LGB.
> 
> ...


Steve, no need to worry. LGB (now Maerklin-LGB) is the only company which produces a comprehensive and complete system of model railroading in large scale. Everything fits and works together. And works well. Like you I have been fascinated by these trains since late eighties. A few words of correction. LGB makes things to a range of scales from about 1:13 for feldbahn to about 1:26 for standard gauge prototypes. Saying LGB does not imply any particular scale. Personally, I do like exact 1:22.5 sale and for this reason I also have a substantial number of locomotive models in this scale by other manufacturers. Plus some rolling stock from LGB which sufficiently fits this scale. LGB made models in 1:20 too, and I have several of these with matching rolling stock. Since I enjoy live steam I also prefer larger scales, simply because the larger the locomotive boiler the easier it is to run the locomotive. There is enough choice here, from 1:24 to 13 or so. Regarding Bachmann, they used to produce junk and apparently not much changed. Even though they made a few jumps to the so-called 'Spectrum' range, this is essentially a failed exercise. True, the D&RGW caboose and a few cases of rolling stock were nice, but they will fade away. The quality is poor, parts fall apart and break off and it is impossible to get replacements (I tried). I am talking about Spectrum rolling stock, I had the Shay but I sold it quickly. I simply realised that I want to stick with quality, regardless of the scale. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

thanks zubi

i hope, with scant usage and great care, my climax and C19 will not turn to junk.
but, your overall B'mann sentiments are in the back of my mind.

i will say, i am very pleased with how these 2 locos look and operate. even my shay, with the replaced metal trucks, runs really nicely . all can run more slowly than any LGB loco i own, with the exception of the rack locos. the buehler motors are tough, smooth, but seem to have a slightly higher threshold voltage between run and stall.

i bought an AMS combine, and i have to say, together with the C19, it is breathtaking compared to any similar loco coach in LGB, visually speaking.

i had no idea the feldbahn stuff was 1:13. on my wish list in frr, a tiny 8-10T shay, ala Gilpin Tramway.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Another of LGB's several scales is it 0-8-2T Zillertal Bahn engine. The gauge of the Zillertal Bahn track is 760 mm. That is a scale of 1:16.9. I don't know measurements of the prototype engine, so I can't do a specific determination of the model's actual scale.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

I would never argue scale with you - I know I would lose.

In my opinion it boils down to corporate cultures. If you take any brand product apart you will find they basically use the same quality components and same (high or low) quality construction across their product lines. I saw this with the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 when I realized things like connectors, smoke units etc. were virtually identical to the 4-6-0. 

This is not particularly good or bad in that I would never expect to find a $99 LGB Mogul but neither would I expect to leave a metal Bachmann locomotive to run & be stored in my damp crawlspace.

The simple fact is that if you want a 4-6-0 or a 4-4-0 you'll probably have to buy it from Bachmann just as if you want a Big Boy it will probably have to come from MTH or USAT (I'm not even going to mention A*S*T*E*R - way out of my league).

Even the best screw up once in a while as TAC warned me about the LGB/Aster WP Mikado. I was safe until I was asked just how much (little) I would pay for one and I fell for it. I immediately bought a spare drive unit and I've been afraid ever since to put it on the track and run it.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

I like you started with LGB but over the past 6 years I have switched over totally to 1:20.3, Fn3. I currently have 12 Bachmann Fn3 locomotives, two 36 ton Shays, two Connies, two Industrial 2-6-0 Moguls, an 0-4-0 Porter side Tank, a Porter 0-4-0 Saddle Tank, a 2-4-4 Forney, a 0-4-0 Davenport Gas, a 4-4-0, and my latest purchase, a K27. 
I also have two 1:22.5 4-6-0 Annies that I am converting to 1:20.3. I've had the normal problems with gears and trucks but I addressed them proactively after reading about them on the net, by repairing or replacing the parts before they failed, I feel that the detail of the models out weighs the problems I've had. I've had the same problems with Bachmann communications but I just solved any problems on my own. Other than communication with Bachmann I do have a beef with them that I have expressed on their web site with no reply. Their last offering was the C-19 I believe 3 or 4 years ago but that's been it for Fn3, no new rolling stock, either freight, MOW, or passanger, it's like they have just abandoned the product line after creating a customer base.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

yup
Bachmann is not too good with responding to customers either.....

I still marvel at and love the C19 and the caboose.

hopefully, it is better and longer lasting than the original 36T shays.......
it has given me real concern over buying more of the brand.....


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

jaug said:


> [...] I've had the normal problems with gears and trucks but I addressed them proactively after reading about them on the net, by repairing or replacing the parts before they failed, I feel that the detail of the models out weighs the problems I've had. I've had the same problems with Bachmann communications but I just solved any problems on my own. Other than communication with Bachmann I do have a beef with them that I have expressed on their web site with no reply. [...]


Jaug, 'normal problems'??? I do not think there is anything 'normal' about problems with stuff you buy - however much it costs - it is after all your hard earned money. I still buy some Bachmann rolling stock, but after I bought some Murphy roof cars on which the metal parts were crumbling to dust in my hands, I repented. I am considering to have the parts recast in quality metal. 'No reply' is a minor piece of beef - they just deleted my posts before anyone answered... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

the bastards! LOL

i just finally got though on phone. staff is....challenged imho. not at all customer oriented. parts i ordered and paid for were out of stock, despite listing as available. sooooooo, they sent thecwrong parts, and couldnt understand why a shay pilot wasnt ok instead of a C19. after all you DID recieve something from us.

while i dig my stuff, no more. as they say, you buy it, its yours.........sucker.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've never had to deal with Bachmann's parts department, except many many moons ago when I drove up to Philly to get some metal drivers to replace the plastic ones on my 4-6-0, or just ordering parts off of their web site. I've never had issues ordering off the web site, but I've also not tried to get parts that aren't listed online, so I've had no reason to call their parts department directly. 

Stories of folks having trouble with getting parts out of Philly are certainly not rare on the forums. They had a guy in parts who could usually get you what you needed, but he retired not too long ago. Still, that you had to "know who to ask for" to get what you needed always struck me as a bit unfortunate. We'll never know how many folks called the parts department and got what they needed because they're not likely to post "I got what I needed" posts on forums, but folks _not_ getting what they need happens often enough to where there's at the very least a perception problem that should be addressed, if not something deeper. Customer service after the sale is a big part of repeat business. 

That having been said, a lack of repair parts is not unique to Bachmann. We pay our money and take our chances with many manufacturers. Do we not buy the model of a prototype we like just because there's a chance repair parts will not be available down the road? It's not like other companies are champing at the bit to produce them instead. 

I also think that as 3D printing technology continues to evolve, getting repair parts is going to get easier, as folks will simply design them and print them as needed. A manufacturer can do that pretty easily, too. Time will tell. 

******

To Steve's point about modeling 1:20.3, there are a good number of LGB locos which scale very well in 1:20.3: The Mogul, Forney, Porter, and Davenport are very well-suited for the scale, without any modification. Even the old "Americanized" Stainz looks great pulling a string of 1:20 cars. (It looks even better with a much-more-prototypical paint scheme.) The Porter and the Forney are actually closer to 1:19 when compared to their prototypes' dimensions. The Mogul and Davenport scale close to 1:22 when compared to their specific prototypes, but when compared to other similar but slightly smaller locomotives, they measure favorably to 1:20.3. Obviously the larger locos like the Uintah/SV or the White Pass diesel are far too small, but I can definitely see a very credible 1:20.3 railroad being done using primarily LGB locos if one were of the mind to do so.

Later,

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

K

Until your latest post, I had no idea how versatile the LGB Mogul *IS*. I've pulled 1:20.3 cars with it and thought it looked fine. However, your comments got me to thinking about it and 1:29 cars. I got a 1:29 train out and tried it. It works. 

Here is a LGB mogul with some Accucraft 1:20.3 coaches.










And the same engine with a mixture of USAT, Aristo, and LGB 1:29 freight cars. It works for me. Here is comes off as a larger 2-6-0 and in the 1:20.3 it is a little smallish. But it works,for me, both places.



















Thanks for the idea. It can't pull many of those cars, but it can pull some.

Chuck


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

great photos


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Steve, some times things work out.

I have a lot of engines in different scales. The mogul may be the only one that works with 1:20.3, 1:22.5/24, and 1:29. While the Forney is about the same size, I don't think that the Forney would be appropriate for a typical 1:29 train.

Chuck

Maybe, LGB knew something I (we) didn't know or appreciate. They also made the mogul with standard gauge logos. Like the see through F7s which weren't big sellers, I got a Pennsylvania Mogul with sound for a very good price. It is now black instead of Tuscan and it is lettered for the Rio Grande. Thanks LGB for being ahead of the times. My formerly PRR mogul still has the PRR medal on the smoke box door.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There was a narrow gauge mogul lettered for the PRR:










Ex. Waynesburg & Washington #4 became PRR #9684 when the PRR purchased the line. (I coulda sworn LGB did a version with "9684" on the side of the cab, but it may have been a sticker.) It would have been black, not tuscan, but who can really tell in black and white photos, eh? 

Later,

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

K

The LGB number for the PRR Mogul is 2219 or 22190 depending on the vintage, thanks to Google.

I could not find a picture of the engine and tender, but pictures of various parts came up; top of tender and cab. Both were Tuscan red and the cab had the number 2219 lettered on the side.

Somewhere I have a stack of old LGB catalogues, but I haven't been able to find them. If I can find the right one there might be a picture of the engine in question.

Chuck


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin;

Do you know what that funky-looking thing is on the cab roof? Too early to be a firecracker radio antenna. Something to do with vacuum brakes perhaps? After all, the Pennsy did try just about everything that got invented for trains!

Best,
David Meashey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

David, this is vacuum ejector muffler on the cab as the W&W line used Eames vacuum brake system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_brake More on the line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waynesburg_and_Washington_Railroad There is a very good book on the subject http://www.amazon.com/Three-feet-panhandle-Waynesburg-Washington/dp/0912113006 Loco #4 is perhaps the most well known as it has been preserved and restored recently 



 Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

K, maybe a sticker, the chocolate 'tuscan red' coloured Moguls have 2219 on the side and the green ones - which I coincidentally suggested to LGB to produce based on the resemblance with another W&W locomotive - have a number 2518. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

PS LGB 23191 undecorated may have included Pennsy stickers but I do not know which number, if it did. Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> K
> 
> The LGB number for the PRR Mogul is 2219 or 22190 depending on the vintage, thanks to Google.
> 
> ...


Hi Chuck,

Here is a photo of the 2219s (analog sound) Tuscan Red PRR Mogul. The cab was numbered 2219. It was discontinued before the 5 digit coding was introduced. There is a 22192 (digital sound) listed but I have never seen one or heard of one. There were matching PRR Tuscan Red coaches etc. and they were perhaps the best LGB coaches with fancy curtains, PRR plaques etc.








Years of production: 1989 - 1993

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

zubi said:


> K, maybe a sticker, the chocolate 'tuscan red' coloured Moguls have 2219 on the side and the green ones - which I coincidentally suggested to LGB to produce based on the resemblance with another W&W locomotive - have a number 2518. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


Hi Zubi,

You are right of course. The green 25182 (digital sound) PRR Mogul has the cab numbered 2518. There also were matching green coaches etc.

There also was the Black 28192 (digital sound) PRR Mogul with the cab numbered 2819.

I am still looking for a 28192.

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Thanks for the picture. That is what I thought it looked like before I painted black and added RIO GRANDE LETTERING. That was probably 25 or so years ago. All an remember is that Watts had a super close out sale on it and I couldn't say no.

Chuck


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

So I guess its true then, bigger is better! I also ran mostly all LGB, with a little Kalamazoo, Delton and Hartland mixed in along the way. Then came along RTR 7/8ths scale stuff with live steam power. Now there is a small prototype but still large enough in model form for my uncordinated hands to operate. I have both the Emma and Fairymead from Accucraft. I am planning to rework my outdoor line to suit the Emma, Fairymead is beautiful but needs larger curves than my garden will allow. I run her at meets. Mike


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm with you, Mike! That 7/8" stuff is definitely cool. I'm not as enamored by the Emma or Fairymeade as I thought I would be; something about the proportions looking more "industrial" than "narrow gauge" for my eyes. However, Accucraft's upcoming Maine Forney--I'm hoping I never see one in the flesh, because that could lead to big trouble. (And I mean "big!") 

Fortunately, my back yard is too small to do even industrial 7/8" justice, let alone a proper Maine 2'-based railway, so any foray into that would require me to run out at the museum. And if I'm going to be storing models that big just to run elsewhere, I may as well just bite the bullet and do 1" ride-on. Marty's only 8 hours away! 

Later,

K


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Not quite two foot gauge, but 60cm WWI trench gauge. Close enough. Gandalf handles eight foot diameter curves without a problem. The scale is smaller than 7/8, though. (Had not cleaned the excess glue from the nameplate when this shot was taken.)










This locomotive is a joy to run, so long as you add enough cars behind him to keep him from running off like a scalded cat!

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry McColgan said:


> Hi Zubi,
> 
> You are right of course. The green 25182 (digital sound) PRR Mogul has the cab numbered 2518. There also were matching green coaches etc.
> 
> ...


Jerry, that is correct. I tried to find this black one both in my memory and on the Internet and failed... So thank you for providing the number. I hope to find one of these one day too. They were sold only in the US I believe. The green ones were sold everywhere. Even though I suggested to LGB to make the green one, I still like the chocolate colour best - this was my first LGB Mogul - after many years when it was only a dream that I could ever have one. Fantastic memories of wonderful trains. Nothing like this is possible with other brands - not for me at least. Even though I am now almost entirely live steam driven;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike Toney said:


> So I guess its true then, bigger is better![...]


Mike, I do not quite agree. In live steam - yes, I agree. Here the bigger is the better, bigger boilers, more realistic valve gear and overall improved performance and realism. But in electrically powered engines, there is no necessity to go larger. I stick with 1:22.5 This is a pretty ideal scale. I wish LGB did more in that scale. Now several other makes took over, KISS, Train-Line. But the US range got ruined by the entire F nonsense. Still, it opened the way for making live steamers which 20 years ago were out of question. In terms of different prototypes to choose from, there has never been better time in large scales. Forever gone are the times when thousands of engines would be produced. Now we have runs of 50. Close to what was done by garage industry 20 years ago... Times are changing, but the fun remains, for those few of us who still play trains;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

As I grow older I have been rediscovering the joy of my LGB trains. The 28192 was only produced in 1999 as a limited edition and only 200 were made. I found this information in the LOK book by Aldo Farneti and Paolo Zaniness (GARTENBAHN profi 2013).

I am sure I will find a 28192 someday but when it was available it was out of my price range. Unlike the Tuscan red and green moguls there were no matching cars for the black mogul.

Jerry



zubi said:


> Jerry, that is correct. I tried to find this black one both in my memory and on the Internet and failed... So thank you for providing the number. I hope to find one of these one day too. They were sold only in the US I believe. The green ones were sold everywhere. Even though I suggested to LGB to make the green one, I still like the chocolate colour best - this was my first LGB Mogul - after many years when it was only a dream that I could ever have one. Fantastic memories of wonderful trains. Nothing like this is possible with other brands - not for me at least. Even though I am now almost entirely live steam driven;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

not to derail, but, Jerry, is that LOK book worthwhile?

I have the Kompendium and presumed LOK would be redundant, for the most part.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Steve,

I was actually trying to find the Kompendium to buy it.

I was unsuccessful so when LOK became available I ordered a couple (a working copy and a reference copy).

543 nicely done pages with photographs of virtually every LGB locomotive (just locomotives). I have never seen a Kompendium so I cannot make a comparison with it. I am still looking for a copy if you happen to know where anyone is selling them.

The only downside for me is the prices are all DM or EU but I have been able to download copies of how the Mark value has fluctuated over the years. I just have no idea how LGB US prices compared with DM prices at any given time (no US MSRP given).

I found it interesting that the 2219S was priced from 1450 DM - 1730 DM (1989 - 1993)

In 1989 $1.00 U.S. = 1.88 DM ($771.28)
In 1993 $1.00 U.S. = 1.66 DM ($1,042.17)

There are a few errors because LGB made some changes over the years without changing the model number (as I'm sure you're well aware).

Jerry




stevedenver said:


> not to derail, but, Jerry, is that LOK book worthwhile?
> 
> I have the Kompendium and presumed LOK would be redundant, for the most part.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Zubi - FYI The 28192 is not only shown as Limited Edition but also as Uncataloged.

I believe it was an ATS only item.

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry, 200 pieces is actually quite a large number. I also hope to get one of these some day, when I am rich;-)... It was out of reach for me when it was released, so I missed it. The green Pennsy coaches will go very well with it. Yes, the 2219S was crazy expensive in Europe. It was completely out of reach for me when I saw it in the catalogue (from the LGB price list I could afford one goods car, perhaps...). After several years, I found a dealer in Essen in Germany (Renken shop, run by Andreas Meyer) who had discounted prices which were a bit more easy to swallow. I still remember driving there to get my C&S Mogul. Wonderful days and wonderful memories. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

Most of my LGB trains were purchased used because I couldn't afford new ones. Eventually I found a German doctor who traveled internationally and I ended up buying my first new LGB trains through him.

All my 2219s were well used before I bought them but somehow I grew to love the color. I especially like the passenger cars with the lace window curtains and PRR plaques on the sides.

Over the years I've built up both PRR passenger and freight trains. They became my favorite night trains.

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry, I believe, that the chocolate Pennsy mogul with chocolate cars would be my favourite LGB train. I have other trains, but I still remember that catalogue from 1991/92 with this train across full two pages. It looked wonderful! At the time, I could only afford the catalogue, 25 Dutch guilders... it was quite a lot of money! Yes, the cars have these fancy gold plated window frames and curtains. All completely unrealistic, but somehow capturing imagination and in a word 'magical'. BTW I used to tease Dave Buffington who at the time represented LGBoA and worked on his LGB book that these were cobwebs... good to remember these fun things in the times when only rivets count. I believe large scale was very restricted and even poor at that time but it was perhaps a more happy hobby. Still, with the overwhelming abundance of offerings in a range of scales one can enjoy the hobby now at a different level. Gramps in petunias anyone;-)??? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

Dave Buffington - and the rest of the crew at LGB of America were the life blood of LGB for me. I was pleased to find that Jonathan Meador is now with PIKO and others remain active in the hobby with Ron Gibson is still working with LGB.






For me the chocolate PRR coaches were the best of LGB (and perhaps the Chinese White Pass the worst?).

As old as they are, the PRR 2219s Moguls still run perfect (analog sound and all.

Jerry


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