# Do it Yourself Civil Engineering



## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

House with a big yard, check. Design, check. Track, check. Now the hard part, getting the design out of the computer and onto the ground. The plan is to build a elevated track as close to the ground as possible. That may sound oxymoronic but my real goal is to create a level surface with little to no maintinance required. Because the land is sloped slightly there will be natural elevation changes along the line. Anyway, the track's going to be big, 20ft x 50ft. The only part of the process I haven't quite figured out is how to mark the post positions. I have a long enough tape measure, but I feel like I need a giant T square. Any ideas? Certainly anyone who has built this type of layout has had to deal with this problem.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*The Design*

Here's the design. In the drawing PDF the solid lines mark hedge locations. The points with three rings are the primary datums. The points with two rings are the secondary datums: where curved sections meet straight sections.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

If you have two datum points on your drawing that each post is measured from, all you need is two tape measures, one attached to a post representing each datum point, and where they intersect will be the post position.
At least, that is how I would approach it, and then pound in temporary posts, stand back and look at it, and then tweak it if necessary.
Have fun.
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

You can make your own T-Square using the 2-3-5 method to create the required right angle. You could also consider a sheetrock t-square instead.

You could use a knotted string instead of a long tape measure. Some people use a garden hose to layout their track on the ground.

How close to the ground is "close"? You might consider using PVC pipe as your roadbed support. Using, for example, two different diameters - one inside the other - to allow "telescoping" for adjustments over time unless your ground is really stable and not prone to heaving or sinking.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Another thought is that if I were you (and I'm not!) I would have some straight track on the railway.
Flowing curves are very nice, but it's sometimes nice to see a train going in a straight line.
Cheers,
David


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; } I did consider the PVC ladder approach. The overall cost is similar but decided since I'd gone down the path of sectional track, I felt like it would need a lot more tweaking to get a ladder to follow it accurately. The model doesn't show it but the top will be made of deck board. I figure any location error stackup will be more easily remedied in the end by shifting the deck boards around. Also I wanted some derailment protection. Exept for a few track power locos I built when I was younger, I have over the years traded out my entire fleet for live steam, hence the 20ft diameter curves and the levelness requirement. It may not look it but the longest straight section is 15 feet long (the others are 7, 6, and 3). Anything can change at this point. The only thing I’m waiting for is springtime. Thanks for the advise.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I had a similar situation, getting from CAD to dirt. I began with confirming known datums between the two -- corners of the house, etc. Then I ran some additional datum strings to measure from, making a 20' grid. 

I used tape measurers and (eventually) a laser distance finder from this grid to lay out the arc centers. Then a chain from those to mark track centers (using pegs or whatever), and straight edged boards for the tangents between. Using tapes I also plotted confirmation points from the CAD for tangent points, switch points, etc. In the end, I had a series of stakes & pegs representing the track in plan view.

For leveling, since my site is on a fairly undulating slope, I made a water level using a large plastic trash can and a long clear tube with an end poking thru a hole near the bottom of said trash can. That gave me a good datum elevation wherever I took the other end of the tube. Using a vertical tape measurer and doing the math along the way, I placed white electrical tape on the pegs, representing where top of track should be. 

Best luck, and please post pics on your surveying efforts.

===>Cliffy


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I laid out a layout pretty much the same as yours. I used the above laser. It uses conical mirrored reflector to generate a horizontal plane. It's awesome because you don't need a spinning laser. It comes in a kit shown above. Home Depot $340. Might be a few dollars but after using it you will tank your stars for getting it. I am amazed how much I've used it since in ways I never imagined and saved a yuge amount of hours doing the old ways.

I sent you a PM with a cad drawing for laying out your layout. I tried writing out instructions but that got way too long. 

Your layout is the partial arch of 3 interconnected circles so it's lines points and circles to layout. 
For posts, What I did;
Dig holes 4 ft on center along the layout outline for each post 
Two method;
a. Place a post in each hole mark where the laser hits each post at that line. Cement each post aligning the top with the laser..
b. Easier method is to just cement all the posts at one time. Laser line mark each post and cut them all off at once with a chain or circular saw. 

Laser setup;
Mount the laser on a camera tripod 
Place the tripod at the high point of the ground.(which will be the lowest point of the elevated layout.) 
Adjust the height of the laser for the height of the track at that point.
At dusk put on the glasses, turn on the laser for a horizontal plane.
The laser light is good for much greater than your 50ft distance.

Hope it helps. Email me if any questions.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

reminds me of the pennsylvania live steamers track.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

@Chris Scott: Funny you should mention Bosch lasers. My soon to be wife is an engineer at Bosch in Plymouth, MI so we get pretty steep discounts on their stuff. We got a GRL250HVCK auto leveling rotary laser kit a while back so I already have the leveling part of the puzzle nailed. Like you said, I don't know how I made do before. It's just the coordination of the posts where I need to decide on a method that I like. https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/rotary-lasers-grl-250-hvck-34513-p/


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Work begins when it's not so cold outside. Next step is a general survey so I can better plan for materials (small/med/long post lengths) and also to assess cosine error from measuring on a slope. Pictures and commentary to come.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I ended up laying the track on the ground to see my plan. 
FYI: our track is made in MM and our inch Dia/Radius are approximations.
Measure from center to center, some 10'Diameter track may only be 9.5'...

Good Luck
John


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## rexcadral (Jan 20, 2016)

**** Habilis said:


> How close to the ground is "close"? You might consider using PVC pipe as your roadbed support. Using, for example, two different diameters - one inside the other - to allow "telescoping" for adjustments over time unless your ground is really stable and not prone to heaving or sinking.


@HH: I love this idea and am working on plans to re-do my outside layout this spring. What diameters do you think would work well for 24"-32" elevation? 

Do you think I could get it to 8' between posts, if each 8' span is supported on all 4 corners by posts? 

How deep do you have to go to secure the bases, and do you need to pour concrete?

Having pounded >250 stakes last year to make my ~300' loop, I recognize that the fewer holes you have to make in New England soil, the better. ...and I'd rather not have to call DigSafe.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

@Totalwrecker: I forget what the actual measured diameter was off the top of my head but it's been accounted for in the model. I never assume supplier parts are the dimensions they report.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Totalwrecker said:


> I ended up laying the track on the ground to see my plan.
> FYI: our track is made in MM and our inch Dia/Radius are approximations.
> Measure from center to center, some 10'Diameter track may only be 9.5'...
> 
> ...



Not so easy w/ground paint or using actual track but easy in cad. In 1:1 scale you can layout the width of the deck as well as the track positioning.. Very useful for working out trk-to-trk spacing. Learning cad has been a extraordinary benefit over 20+ years. And compared to Autocad back then cad today is heavenly. 

I can't see laying out the track on the ground. First because I'd have to bend all the 6' flex track possibly having to adjust the radius. But most importantly that would be totally contrary to the purpose of an elevated layout - not having to work and avoiding all work at ground level. Not to mention on the ground th track might get dirty.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*General Survey Done*

I actually did this work a little over two weeks ago on a day when it wasn't so cold out. Because I plan to put the loop near a corner of the property I wanted to wait until the lot itself was surveyed (by an actual surveyor) so I could be sure I wasn't in a neighbor's yard. As I half expected, some of the lot's corners are in places you wouldn't think they should be (things shift around a bit over 100+ years) but at least I don't have to move the loop.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Survey Map*

For some reason this didn't make it into the last post. In the past I've mentioned cosine error. In this case, cosine error is caused by measuring along a sloped surface and then using that as the basis for the level surface. For example, given a sufficiently "steep" slope, placing a circle on the ground and using it as a template for marking posts locations for the eventual level surface would result in an elliptical roadbed that the circle of track would not be able to fit on. My yard, though not perfectly flat, has a gentle enough slope that this won't be an issue (over 50ft, I'll only be off by about a half inch from cosine error). Anyway, what it boils down to is that advanced layout methods aren't necessary. All I need to do is assemble the track on the ground and use that as the template for marking post locations.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i suggest installing sidings- taking trains on and off every run is a pain and nobody likes a track without sidings IMHO


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

On the subject of turnouts. First: after random debris, they are the greatest cause for derailments. I have one loco I absolutely love that cannot cross switches at all, but even if you discount it, they are still a hazard easily tripped over. Second: they're likely to be destroyed by the climate where I live (ice can wreck just about anything). Third: they're expensive. The big #6 switches I'd need are $140 each. Not happening; or at least not now. I have tentative plans for a second loop (next year maybe), but not in the form of a double mainline most think to do.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Design plan*

Until now I've been a little vague on the construction details. Here's what I'm going for (see cross section drawing). I'm trying to design the track platform so that it has just the right strength and weather resistance in just the right areas; with build steps made as few and as simple as possible to economize time and money. Given a bare dirt yard, my preference would be a garden railroad style build with a reinforced concrete roadbed but I can't convince myself to tear out 1000 square feet of lawn.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Post locations marked*

Today I assembled the track on the ground and marked the post locations from it. In order to better fit the straight lines of the frame to the (nearly) curved edges of the deck posts are placed slightly out from center. Through straight sections they are on center and at transition points they're in between. I bought one T post to try out and it went in well enough. I drove it in first with a post driver and then with a sledge hammer. The tip is about 4ft deep in the ground. A small magnetic level helps to keep it vertical.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*All preliminary boxes checked*

Good news! My permit proposal for this "fence" project has been approved and I have a clean dig report (no underground utilities to drive posts through). I've been holding back on progress updates until I'd crossed off both things. Below is a test sample I did to check the weldability of the materials I want to use.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Steel Driving Man*

18 down, 15 left to go. Minimum depth is just over 3ft. Most are driven just short of 4ft.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you plan any turnouts on a curve for a siding?


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Not yet. I want to wait at least a year before expanding to see how it fares. Weather is not my only concern as the loop is in plain view to anyone walking down the street (planting a taller hedge line for the back yard is also high on the to do list). Amending the line should be easy compared to this initial effort.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Rainy Day Project*

It was cold and rainy outside so I decided to knock out a different part of the project (I'm still not done driving posts). The pictures show the steps I took to make the post tops. Once the posts are all in the ground and level, these get welded on top of each. They're not much to look at but here simple is best as every step is repeated a multiple of 33 times.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Post top photo descriptions
3/8" rebar marked for cutting. The ends tend to be bent so I'm only getting three parts out of each 2ft section. (Bent end bits are discarded)

An angle grinder with a cutting disc gets the job done fast.

Wide shot of the welding set up. I use a Hobart Handler 140, it's as powerful a welder you can get for normal 120V outlets.

Clamping set up. I've tack welded a short section of angle to a vise grip to aid in holding the parts to be welded.

Same clamping set up with parts ready for welding.

33 welded post tops. 66 welds total.

Weld clean up with a wire wheel on the angle grinder.

All done! Centers are marked to help with locating the part when I eventually weld them to the posts.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*All Posts In*

Taking advantage of the softer ground from yesterday's rain and with the end (of post driving) in sight I hammered in the final 12 posts today. There are 33 total.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Busy Day*

Starting work just after noon with leveling the 12 posts I put in yesterday. I have been level cutting posts as they have gone in (marked with the laser) and had planned on a final leveling mark and cut once all posts were in but a check with the laser showed that the extra work wasn't necessary so I moved on with the project. The rest of the daylight hours were spent welding the post tops onto the posts and then cleaning the welds with the wire wheel. Getting the posts in the ground was slow and arduous. The rest of the work will progress much easier.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Photo Descriptions
Mag 77 Skilsaw, the only circular saw you'll ever need. I've had mine over 10 years and it's equally comfortable with building a deck as it is with cutting inch thick steel plate. Slicing the T stake tops is easy work.

The portable welding setup. A cardboard shield is there to keep the neighbors happy.

All 33 welded and wire wheeled. By now the sun is low in the sky.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Paint*

4 spray cans of rust primer later...


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Stringers go up*

The start of adding the 2x4 pressure treated stringers.

The clamping setup. Short sections of thin plywood support the joint at this stage. A 2" wood block keeps the next section parallel.

A finished joint. Composite 2x4 was chosen for the joining block to mitigate risk of wood splitting. 3" deck screws hold it together. I may still add tie plates to the outside of the joint but for now this is good enough.

The finished work so far.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

A gate planned?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

This a very interesting construction method. I hope you have an automatic darkening helmet, they sure make things a lot easier. I got mine at Harbor Freight for about $40 dollars and it works great. I really like being able to use both hands. Thanks for posting your progress. I will be watching with interest.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

No gate. I haven't checked yet but I think the lawn mower fits under the tall area of the line. If not I'd still rather set up a ramp to get it over the short area. I want to keep the construction rigid.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

For a long time I preferred a basic helmet but over Christmas I got the Lincoln Electric Viking 3350 you see in the pictures. I still think learning to weld with a basic helmet is good for character building but for difficult geometries an auto helmet really helps. There isn't a good way to clamp the post tops to the posts so I had to hand hold them for the initial tack weld. Of course it helps to see that it's on straight.

I didn't set out to create a new construction method. The design is for me the best balance of cost, ease of construction, and service life. T posts (and rebar) are remarkably inexpensive and certainly they're the easiest thing to get in the ground, particularly considering the depths I wanted to achieve. Composite 2x4's were necessary at joints because the same part made of wood would certainly split. The rest is pressure treated wood which should be just fine so long as there's no ground contact and the spans are short. The gaps between posts are just short of 4ft to accommodate this and this distance also ensures minimal wasted material. Scrap cut-offs from the 8ft boards are only inches long.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

To anyone wishing for an easier way to view the photos: I also keep these on google drive. The same photos I post here will also be posted there as progress continues. I've made the folder viewable to anyone with the link below. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B42JiZpDrwFSRjF2UzFNeVdJSnc


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*More progess*

Bigger snake.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Stocking up*

The last fourteen 2x4's.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

steamermeister said:


> The last fourteen 2x4's.


 now just dont slam on the brakes if you want a windsheild


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Stringers Complete*

See title ↑


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Wood sealing*

Rosalin my fiance, and I made quick work of wood sealing. The only reason we stopped where we did is because the newer sections of pressure treated wood are still damp. The deck boards will be sealed before assembly. I figured this would be the easiest way to get sealing done as I will never have better access to the surfaces again.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

steamermeister said:


> Rosalin my fiance, and I made quick work of wood sealing. The only reason we stopped where we did is because the newer sections of pressure treated wood are still damp. The deck boards will be sealed before assembly. I figured this would be the easiest way to get sealing done as I will never have better access to the surfaces again.


what will you be putting on top? boards of plywood? i think that composite Trex© decking would work the best, but it is a lot of $$$$


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Please go to post #20 (probably page #2 for you or anyone else). Make my words, this will be the last time I answer this question. Composite lumber is prohibitively expensive for a project of this scale relative to pressure treated lumber. Do the research and math for yourself for once this time. The line is 124ft long. Assume half inch (average) gap and then try to understand that this number is still only a fraction of the total cost. In multiples, every penny counts.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

steamermeister said:


> Please go to post #20 (probably page #2 for you or anyone else). Make my words, this will be the last time I answer this question. Do the research and math for yourself for once this time. T


 
we get it. you strongly dislike me for some unknown reason. was just asking a question.

Nate


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Make sure your Mike with the vanderbuild tender makes it around the track! Great job! Pressure treated wood still will develop splits and cracks ,the extreme temperatures in your area will contribute warping the lumber,get a quote on bedliner spray/paint which will be more permanent! Great job ! enjoyed running steam with you together.
Rosalin and you are a perfect couple,Best wishes for you both in the future, Manfred


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Power of the Assembly Line*

Today I cut all the deck boards (5/4 x 6 nominal). I got the twenty-nine 8ft lenghts home in two trips from the hardware store. They’re still wet from having been pressure treated so I’m waiting for them to dry a few days before applying sealant. Work goes fast when the parts are interchangeable.


Photo Descriptions:


Marking the boards. Each 8ft board is cut into nine parts. The first board I measured and marked became the template for marking the rest. The wide lengthwise stripe signifies that this side faces down when assembled. This is based on the orientation of the growth rings; bark side faces up so that the boards don’t curl into a cup as it weathers. Big thanks to Jim Bowers for sharing this insight.


Cutting the boards. Rosalin and I built the picnic bench as a side project in an afternoon a few weeks ago and it’s now my favorite saw horse (at least until it’s sealed, then she says I need to figure out something new). Shims wedged into the table gaps make a perfect back stop.


All the deck pieces cut and placed roughly in position on the frame.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks Manfred. We both miss Utah but I guess that's how life goes. I have a few ideas knocking around in my head to extend the service life. For now things are going to stay basic so I can give my checking account a break. I got the USA Trains 20ft diameter sectional track at the start of this project. First thing I did when it arrived was put the Mike on it to check that it fit. All I can say is that it better still fit once this thing is all together.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*Deck on and wood seal complete*

No need to hold your breath over whether the track fits or not; it was the template for locating and aligning the deck boards. There's 10 pounds of 2 1/2" deck screws holding the top on; four in each of the 248 boards. Every wood surface received two coats of wood seal except for the top of the deck which got three. Sorry to jump past the intermediate steps but there wasn't much to show. Now I'm just waiting for the last coast of sealant to dry.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

*El Fin*

Last work done.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks really nice and should last about 100 years unless a tornado lifts it straight up off the posts! You will enjoy many days of running on that track.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks. I dunno about 100 but 10-15 years before a major rebuild would be good enough for me. Deck seal will need to be re-applied every other year. I plan to add pipe clamps similar to what's holding the track down to secure the frame to the rebar on the posts eventually. For now I'm exhausted.


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)




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