# DCS Wiring



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I now have two loops on my layout running but the DCS isn't working for squat ...

There are two separate loops that are essentially isolated, these only become connected during a brief instant that an engine transitions from one loop to another through one of the two switches. I am using the two center channels on the TIU for the two loops. Each channel has its own feed from the power supply, which is a very basic MRC Power G power pack with DC output.


I followed MTH's recommendations of doing home run style wiring and I added a 28V lamp to each circuit (that seemed to at wake up the F7 pair). There are 3 power points on each loop, a 4th is planned as soon as I make it to Loews or Home Depot for more wire.


The Hudson doesn't seem to want to respond and won't answer back to the controls, regardless of where it is on the track and it behaves as though it doesn't even see any DCS signals, i.e. it goes forward as soon as it sees enough voltage to run. It does respond to whistle and bell commands but not to speed or direction commands. The controller does seem to acknowledge that the Hudson is alive on an occasion but shows its speed as 0. 


It doesn't appear that it makes any difference which loop/channel the Hudson is using either, it ignores the DCS commands regardless of where it is.


When I had only one loop connected, everything worked fine so I think both locomotives should be OK as it the TIU unit. I am running two locomotives at the same time now but voltages appear to be ok on the track.


Any suggestions (other than replace the DCS with a DCC decoder)? 


Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

DCS locos are polarity sensitive, put them on the track backwards and they run forwards and ignore all commands. 

Pick up that loco, turn it 180 degrees and put back on track... power only one track... get that working... 

Now power other track only... get that working 

then power both tracks and get that working, you need polarity to match between tracks so you don't short out crossing between, check with voltmeter.. 


Start there.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Go to this site, it should answer most of your questions.* 
[url]www.rayman4449.dynip.com [/url]


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Is there some particular reason you are using 2 output terminals? It is not clear to me that you need to do so. Did you specific fixed 1 output to track 1 and fixed 2 to track 2? Did you check to ensure the DCS signal is set to "on" on all outputs? Are you switching tracks (the grey TR button on the remote) when you try to command the Hudson? If you have the system set up correctly you should be able to move from one loop to the other and still maintain complete control. If you lose command control when you cross the switch, the problem is either the switch is bad (unlikely) or you have reversed the voltage in the second loop. A DCS engine, crossing a reverse polarity track does not stop. It continues doing exactly what it was doing before. You might have a short which is insulated by the switch, but that will not stop the locomotive. 
If the Hudson works on one track but not the other, you have the polarity wrong, as Greg suggested. The fact that the Hudson begins running without commands tells you one of two things MUST have happened: there is no DCS at all, or the polarity of the wiring to that particular loop is backwards. A fast way to confirm that would be to reverse the output wires from the TIU and see if the Hudson suddenly works, and the other engine suddenly can not be commanded.


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi Tom, although your discription is very good, it's not all that is needed to determine what is going wrong. For instance you said you have it wired in a star pattern. Do you have the track loops broken into blocks? Is this Hudson brand new or could the board have been shorted out? 
Ray's site will walk you through the steps. I assumed you have the Hudson loaded correctly into the system? The best suggestion is to start with a simple programming section of track not hooked up to anything else. The tiu needs to see one engine at a time. What version of DCS are you running? It should be version 4.1 in the tiu and remote and nothing else!!! Joe


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

John has given some good suggestions to check and start with. 


It sounds like you have one key thing, maybe more than one going on. 

First: _"The Hudson doesn't seem to want to respond and won't answer back to the controls, regardless of where it is on the track and it behaves as though it doesn't even see any DCS signals, i.e. it goes forward as soon as it sees enough voltage to run. It does respond to whistle and bell commands but not to speed or direction commands. The controller does seem to acknowledge that the Hudson is alive on an occasion but shows its speed as 0."_ 

This is a sign that the Hudson missed the initial 'watchdog' signal from the TIU. (The fact that it starts up and takes off without commands from the remote indicates this.) The fact that you can trigger the whistle and bell afterwards proves you have DCS signal to the track (i.e. that the DCS signal for that port is turned on) The fact you and cant vary/control the speed with the remote also is indicative of a missed watchdog signal and the engine is just running under non-DCS control mode.

They key part of your statement to me is, "it goes forward as soon as it sees enough voltage to run" this would indicate you are slowly applying power to the engine. This without a question can cause engines to miss the watchdog signal. (If you were applying power quickly you wouldn't know at which voltage point the engine was turning on.) When powering up your DCS engine, preset the throttle to the desired voltage, THEN turn the power on to the transformer. I advise against turning the power up with the throttle to apply track power because of this very reason. It can be done this way but some do it too slowly which can cause your problem.

Please note that even if you have incorrect polarity to the TIU and/or to the engine, the engine will still see the watchdog signal and sit and wait for commands from the DCS remote. So the engine just taking off upon initial power up IS NOT a symptom of incorrect polarity.


Second:_"It doesn't appear that it makes any difference which loop/channel the Hudson is using either, it ignores the DCS commands regardless of where it is. When I had only one loop connected, everything worked fine so I think both locomotives should be OK as it the TIU unit. I am running two locomotives at the same time now but voltages appear to be ok on the track."_

I agree, both the TIU and engines should be ok. If you can still blow the whistle on the original and new loop that means the DCS signal is turned on for those ports. 

The fact that both loops now seem to be having problems now that you have a second loop and TIU Port in use seems to be a key point as well. Do note that if you have polarity backwards to the new second loop and the loops are truly isolated, then that won't affect how the original loop operates. 

One assumption I'm making is that you are running one loop on one TIU port and the other loop off the second TIU port and you are running both with the TIU in 'Normal' mode configuration. (Normal mode is running power from the transformer to the Input ports of the TIU then running the wires from the output ports to the track) or are you running the TIU in a Passive mode configuration? I assume you do not have the output from the two TIU ports connected together at any point. It sounds like you dont but if the outputs aren't isolated/separated, that can cause signal problems, possibly including some of what you are seeing. I would verify that you do in fact have these loops and the TIU outputs isolated from each other. BUT a quick thing to check (depending on layout conditions) is to try just powering both loops with one TIU port (Fixed 1) as John was talking about. If you switch to one port only and the situation improves dramatically then I would guess that they are not isolated.

I assume you are using insulator clamps on both rails at the point of separation. I would test this to make sure they are isolated.


My next questions are:

- How many linear feet of track are you running?
- What type of track are you using?
- What type of connectors are you using at the track joints? (clamps or orignal slide joiners)

These will help use guide you on whether or not you might should use just one port or more than one.

Also, as Nick suggested, I do have a dedicated DCS tips page to help folks with troubleshooting their setups. Take a look at that page when you have time.


Hope this helps as a starting point. You will get this working, there's just probably a couple of things going on that you need to address and you will be up and running. 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I will add too based on what Joe just provided to let us know what software version is loaded in your DCS remote. (It displays when first powered up, ie. 3.11, 4.00, etc.)

3.11 and older only had a watchdog signal transmit time of 1 second. 4.00 and higher have now increased this time to 5 seconds to ensure no engines accidently miss the signal. If you are running 3.11 or older you would benefit from going to 4.10. If you are running 4.00, 4.01 or 4.02 I highly recommend that you upgrade to 4.10 as those initial three software releases had an add engine bug that can give you problems. 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

And also too to clarify in case it wasn't clear, once an engine misses the watchdog signal, it will for then on be in non-DCS mode running on track power voltage control till it's completely powered down. You have to power up and have the engine not auto startup for you to have full control with the remote. So I think that may have been part of the frustration was you may not have realized that the remote wouldn't work for anything except the whistle and bell there on out.


Raymond


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Ok Tom, now that you've got Ray's attention, go with his suggestions. He's the one I get my DCS advice from.
( too much ?? over the top??) Ray's the guy! Joe


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Enginear on 06/14/2009 5:34 PM
Ok Tom, now that you've got Ray's attention, go with his suggestions. He's the one I get my DCS advice from.
( too much ?? over the top??) Ray's the guy! Joe






Cudo's to Ray, Tom. 

This is not a product issue but simply a system issue.


(DCS or DCC or RC or DC) All the same as it applies to getting messages to our fearless locos.. 

gg


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I am not sure what is going on at the moment ... I spent the last couple of days working on the layout itself and watching thunderstorms roll through so I haven't put the trains back out on the track since the other night. 

The problem may actually be that I have managed to flip the switch on the diesel (which has a switch - the Hudson doesn't) and then laid the system out based on everything being backwards relative to the steam engine ... that would be sort of a typical mistake I have been fighting consistently with DCS. In the next day or so I will go out and try again to see if I can get both engines on the track at the same time and both being happy being controlled by DCS. I have company coming on Sunday and I want to have a bit more of the layout functional by then. If that is the case, I can fix things fairly easily by reversing the banana plugs that power connectors the layout.


The scenario the other night went like this:
1) I set the main F7 Diesel on the track (it is an F7A/B/C set but I only set the main engine out to begin with which as far as I can tell has the controller in it since that is where the speaker is mounted). I hooked everything up, powered up the track, made sure there was around 20V on all the tracks going through the TIU . The engine sat there and did nothing ... didn't respond the controller, didn't move, just sat there (I think I heard one or two clicks though when I turned on the power). 

For the record, this has been typical of what happens every time I set up the DCS system with a new layout configuration. Although I think I followed the Diesel manual which had a picture of which rail was supposed to + and which was supposed to be -.

2) then I disconnected the second loop (never been tested, only added about 90 feet of track to the whole mess).
3) tried again ... the Diesel repeated it previous behavior.

4) went back into the house and brought out the other 2 pieces of the F7 out and hooked the whole thing up.
5) tried again ... similar behavior

5A) turned the whole mess around on the track and tried again ... same behavior.
5B) put it back the way I thought it should be facing.

6) reversed all the wiring to the track.
7) I don't exactly remember, either the Diesel sat there or it took off. So far during all this testing, the DCS remote had failed to report any train on the track.

8) Put everything back to the original wiring.

9) For whatever reason the Diesel woke up and was now under remote control.

10) Hooked the other loop up and ran the Diesel around both loops ... except for a DCS dead spot on both loops about half way around (I need to add a couple more jumper cables) the Diesel answered the DCS commands pretty much regardless of where it was on the layout.

11) Brought the Hudson out and set it on the track (I disconnected the loop that it was on so I could continue running the Diesel on the other loop).

12) Reconnected the loop ... Hudson took off ... hmm ... it shouldn't have done that.

13) Shut the whole system down and turned it back on. Hudson did the same thing. I tried this several times just to make sure.

14) I allowed the Hudson to rove around the layout doing whatever it wanted too.
15) Tried numerous times to talk to the Hudson ... most of the time the controller said it wasn't there, several times though it brought up the engine control but showed the speed as 0 MPH. Still couldn't control speed but both the bell and the whistle could be blown ... didn't seem to make much difference which loop the train was on either.

16) I swapped the trains back and forth between the loops several times ... all the behavior stayed the same. 




I have run the Hudson by itself many times in the past. This is the first time I had two loops and two DCS engines running at the same time. I figured if one ran, they both would run. I probably should have done all my initial testing with the Hudson since that is how I have debugged all the previous configurations. 


I don't have a good picture of the current configuration of the layout as I was testing the other night, some of you have probably seen this one before. The one I have shows only the outside loop installed when I was making sure everything fit on the bench. The center siding is powered by the outside loop (the track on the right side of the bench). The inside loop (on the left) has its own DCS channel. The siding running next to the station was not hooked up and neither was the third loop which has the trolley in the background. Both the siding and the 3rd inside loop are still being modified after I found out the the second loop was too long on bench, by about 6" at each end. The loop that has the trolley on it is loosing about a foot on each end.


The plan is to be able to power each loop separately, either with DCS, DC, or eventually with DCC. The track with the trolley, for the time being, will have a reversing unit on it until I can afford the DCC controller. 


I think the way I wired the layout, the Plus lead on on the right hand side of the track, as shown in the picture below (the way the train is facing it is on the port side). 













Based on what I have read so far in the previous replies, I think I am going to run the TIU in passive mode and power both loops directly from the DC transformer. The transformer appears to be able to deal with both the Diesel and the Hudson on the track at the same time without any issues. It also has a built in circuit breaker instead of a fuse. 


Thanks for all your comments ... it gives me several ideas.

Tom Bray


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi Tom, 

I have been advised not to rely on the power supply transformer circuit breaker but to install a blade fuse (more responsive) between the TIU and the track which I have done. 

I have been using 5 amp fuses and interestingly enough, I have blown a few at the beginning of each run. After playing with the #6 switches, my problem disappears. I notice that you have fair number of switches and is there any possibility of the switches confusing the signal??? I don't really have the answer however I'm sure that someone can answer this easily. 


Bye the way, I have seen sluggish responses to my commands as my locos roll through switches. (on reflection from last night's run) 


gg


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

*Sounds to me you may have polarity problems on your #6 switches. Check with test meter. If the mico-switches do not operate properly and the polarity is wrong on the metal frog you can blow fuses. I personnaly have experience this problem..............Jim*


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Jim good input and I will start a new thread on this subject. Meanwhile and based on your comments Tom may wish to look at this as well due to the # of switches he has. 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Tom for providing good detail to explain what is going on. That is always critical to understand and troubleshoot. 

Here is what I see also going on:

1) From what additional you have here, part of your issue is incorrect polarity between the power supply and TIU. (This is probably the biggest point of pain with new DCS users is this is getting the polarity process right.) When you put an engine on the track and you hear the two clicks from the engine(indicates correct polarity to the engine under DC power) when power is applied and the engine just sits there as it's supposed to but it doesn't respond to the remote, then you have the polarity from the transformer to the TIU wrong. Flip the direction switch. THEN you need to make sure you flip the banana plugs on the output terminals on the TIU going to the track. (I say flip the wires on the TIU Output because I assume at this point you may have all your engines set correctly and don't want to change them) (Also note the TIU is a straight pass through, it does not change polarity for you which is why you want to flip the wires to the layout if you have the engines set.) So always make sure you have 1) polarity correct from the power supply to the TIU and 2) make sure you have the polarity to the track correct OR have the polarity switch on the engines set correctly.

The way to eliminate this as a point of pain is to: Set the direction switch on your power supply the same way each time, the wires from the transformer to the TIU the same way and the TIU to the track the same way. Some folks mark their banana plugs as + and -. In my case, one of my wires has a series of ribbed indentions in it and I always use that as the Pos wire.

Once you know what to look for and setup a process, it takes no time to confirm or correct and you are up and running very quickly with no problems. My layout power supply wiring etc is static so I just turn on the power and go.










2) Hudson: That part I partly covered in my last reply. Once the engine autostarts up, it's running in non-DCS control mode and you won't be able to control it with the remote until you can power it down completely and power back up again. The new part of this is, in #12 you indicated you reconnected the loop and the Hudson took off. When you have a track/siding that is not powered but you already have the power supply on and you essentially want to add engines to the layout via a siding or power another loop with that same transformer, about one second before applying power to the track/siding hit the READ button on your remote and it will force the TIU to resend the watchdog signal. That way the engine will recognize the TIU is there and will await command. 



On the passive mode operation do note that you might experience larger DCS dead spots. Just be aware. Also note that using one power supply and using more than one output port on the TIU in passive mode is a bit more complicated as you have to add a filter to the pos wire to keep the signal from the two ports separate. Let me know if you want more on this. In the end, for as long (in linear feet) as your loops are it sounds like you shouldn't have any serious problems with track signal in either Passive or normal mode. You generally will get better track signal running in normal mode, but if you get it setup right I prefer Passive because the TIU is protected from shorts that way and you can run an unlimited amount of amps. 

Do note that the #6 uses very small - stainless steel wires to pass power through the switch for those rails broken by continuity by the frog. I've added 2 jumper wires per switch (one for each rail cut) to bypass those wires and reduce the electrical resistance created. This would help reduce voltage drop problems and help ensure to minimize and any negative effect on the DCS signal at that point and possibly other locations on the layout.


So to summarize so far:

1) a) Make sure you have polarity correct from power supply to TIU. AND 
b) either make sure you have polarity from TIU to track set right or have the polarity switch set correctly on the engines. (two clicks is correct polarity under DC power)
2) Hit the "Read" button on the remote about 1 second or so before applying power to a new siding or loop with a DCS engine on it so the engine will see the watchdog signal. (for when a layout is already powered up)
3) Make sure the engine stays put when first powered up.(sees the watchdog signal)
4) Make sure the positive output terminals on the TIU are not connected to a common wire or point. (without some sort of filter. Can talk more on this if you need it.)
5) Preset the voltage on the transformer THEN turn the power supply on.

Also, if you have to change polarity on an engine, turn the power off, change, then turn the power back on. Don't change the polarity switch on an engine with the track power applied then expect it to function.

Also as GG noted, do not rely on the circuit breaker for short protection. Use a blade fuse between the power supply and the TIU. If running the TIU in normal mode you want a max of 10amp per channel. If running in passive mode, install what is relevant for the total load you are running. I try to allow a 5amp additional fuse capacity over the load I'm running.

I think these few points plus what has been noted before by others will eliminiate most of the headaches you are having. Good luck and let us know how you end up making out.


Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

As far as getting the polarity correct from the transformer to the TIU, I now have labels on the power pack's direction switches and the output terminals which is + and which is -. I was constantly fighting with this and the labels for the most part eliminated one set of connector swapping possibilities. As soon as I get to it, I will build a little box that will couple the transformer, the TIU, and add CW / CCW switches for the track itself so that I don't have to worry about what is pointed where.

The #6 switches only supply power for the switch rails and the frog, there are a pair isolators on the left and right hand switches going to the siding so they never directly power the rest of the system. On the main lines there are jumpers feeding power between the switches and on either side of the switches. The WYE switches get power from siding. Right now the center siding is hard connected to the the outside loop but that will evolve when I start adding manual and automatic controls to the layout.

So if I connect the two inputs of the TIU to the same transformer/ power supply (I call it a transformer, it really is outputting DC), I need to add a couple of inductors? What size or is there a recommended one that I can order from DigiKey or Mouser? Maybe that is the problem.

I have to say that the DCC system is looking better and better ... 

When I hook the system back up I can very easily try all the various flavors that have been recommended. I am using banana plugs for everything on the control side so rewiring the controls only takes a few seconds (the layout itself is another matter but that shouldn't have to change).

Tom Bray


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

In my experience the frog or it's polarity doesn't affect DCS signal. I personally have removed the microswitches so I don't have to worry about whether an accidental momentary short is created by the engine if the switch is set wrong. 

You are ok connecting the transformer/power supply to the INPUT ports of the TIU with common wires. It's the OUTPUT ports you want to try and avoid connecting together. It won't cause damage, just maybe some dual signaling. I would make sure you separate the positive wires to the sepearate INPUT ports so you can fuse each input separately with a 10 amp fuse. It's only if you plan to run in passive mode(ie. connecting only the OUTPUT ports of the TIU to the track and not using the INPUT ports at all), and use two ports at the same time that you will want to use inductors to filter. But only if you plan to use more than one TIU port. If you are just using one TIU output port for the layout you don't need anything, just wire it up. I will lookup the ones I'm using (which are 10amps each) if you would like.

To each their own I guess on the control system, you end up trading one set of complexities and things to consider for another set. From my experience, once you get past the initial learning curve on getting everything connected, DCS is a snap. In my case, going DCC would be a step backwards in functionality as I prefer having the built in features that you can check with the remote: engine maintenance tracking and countdown based on usage (per engine) with reminder at startup if it's time to lube them, being able to check track voltage levels at the engine level if you think you have a problem, the speed control precision and oh yeah, the smoke. Also being able to run 25amps+ with one TIU and one power supply is much more cost effective than the DCC solutions out there. Most seem to be 10amp max per unit and one of the only other's I've found that will do more than that is only 16amps and costs $1500 for the base station. http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/high-performance-base-station-p-368.html Since it sounds like you were planning to implent DCC you are already planning on the $ outlay so maybe it might make sense to standardize. There are many things to consider in either case, just depends on what you value. Particularly if you want to install DCS in a non-MTH engine and that engine doesn't already have a flywheel, it does complicate the upgrade. 

Good luck, sounds to me like you've got your primary points of pain identified.

Also, what version of the software is loaded into your remote?


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI, if you haven't gotten one of these, you might want to try them. They are a remote cut off for the power outlet and allows you to remotely turn your power supply on and off with a small key fob remote. Very very handy and I only paid ~$17.00 for it. This is great for emergencies or if you need to cycle the power for an engine that is on the other side of the layout, it saves a lot of running around. 











Link to place I ordered from has been deleted Do an internet search. Full product description: "GE Smart Remote Plus Outdoor Outlet Receiver With Keychain Remote Kit"


Here is the little modification I did to the key fob. Gets excellent range now.











http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Power_remote-cutoff.htm


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*DO NOT PURCHASE FROM THE WEB LINK *

The web site referenced has a bogus 800 number, and charged $126 for shipping, and did not show this until the confirmation screen. 

Since I used paypal, I will get my money back, but it looks like "PricePiggie" is out of business, but they WILL take your money! 

Both the 800 number given on the site 800-657-5426 and the customer service number paypal has 602-283-36765 are out of service. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow that is interesting. Ordered from them in Sept of 08 and actually had to work with their customer service because one was damanged. I will pull the pricepiggie.com link. 

You can find these elsewhere, this was just the best price I saw on these.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have ordered from them before myself.... weird. 

Good thing I used paypal. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the full product description for this: "GE Smart Remote Plus Outdoor Outlet Receiver With Keychain Remote Kit"

Do an internet search on "GE Smart Remote Plus Outdoor Outlet Receiver" and you will get tons that come up. Just don't buy from www.pricepiggie.com!










Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That is just rediculous!










Raymond


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*See this is why i buy everything from Macys,







Is Pricepiggie in NJ ?*


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

LOL. They were in Arizona.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/15/2009 3:41 PM
*See this is why i buy everything from Macys,







Is Pricepiggie in NJ ?* 




This Macys place... same as the one in the movie "xmas on 34 st"? 

Stock must be very old.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/15/2009 3:47 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/15/2009 3:41 PM
*See this is why i buy everything from Macys,







Is Pricepiggie in NJ ?* 




This Macys place... same as the one in the movie "xmas on 34 st"? 

Stock must be very old. 










Xmas on 34th st what is that? a movie? before my time......








HE HE HE


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I just did a sample order on pricepiggie, entered in my shipping info and clicked apply (done before you enter your payment info) and sure enough it rings up $126 for shipping. 


Raymond


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yikes: Bad move there. Think I'll pass. later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Just spoke with older guy next store, he said its Miracle on 34th st, jeeeeeeeeeeeez GG can you get american history rite before you post he he he







we have a history teacher on this forum maybe HE will chime in and correct those who need it.







OK OK back on topic !*


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess it's a good reminder why we should all confirm shipping and the total before clicking 'place order'. This proves one can't be too careful out there, even from places you've ordered from before.









I can just imagine how many folks have gotten caught by accident by this.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

RJ, I was ordering the unit for you!!!!! Guess you will have to wait a bit longer ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Ah yes the original topic...... buying remotes at Macy's at xmas. 

In 1932


gg


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the dishonest web link ... I will see if I can find someone carrying a similar product, it looks like a real convenient little device. 


Anyway, back to the original subject.

I got tired of building the layout this evening so I decided to run the trains around the loop ... good therapy. 


I hooked up the DCS in passive mode but otherwise didn't change anything as far as polarity to the track or any other wiring. The way I did it was at the power pack terminals I put 3 cables, one goes to the TIU, the other two go to the layout. The power pack is an MRC Power G and I use the variable output terminals.


I placed the Hudson on the track and powered up the power pack. The TIU came to life and the Hudson did what it was supposed to do, it just sat there. Then I powered up the remote ... worked fine, found the Hudson. Everything was working pretty well, and it appears that my dead spot half way around the loop is not as deep as it was before. 

At least everything worked until one of the turnouts didn't quite make it to its new position ... the engine derailed and shutdown the power pack (popped the circuit breaker). I reset the engine, reset the breaker, turned on the power and the remote indicated that there were no engines on the track ... I turned the power off again, back on after about a minute, same behavior.


Then I got this idea, I turned off the remote control and turned it back on. It found the Hudson almost immediately and everything worked fine.

I added the the main F7 Engine and after I cycled power on the track and the remote, it found that too. Everything worked fine.


Is cycling the power on the remote a normal thing? Could the batteries be getting a bit low or something? I don't remember having to turn off the remote to get it to work before, I know I turned the power on and off but I have never faulted the system either. I do know that I have to turn off the remote if I hit the EStop button.


While I bought the DCS controller and the Hudson back in February, there is a possibility that the software/firmware is not up to date ... I haven't explored that aspect of the DCS system yet. I probably should figure out how to read the software versions and make sure I don't need to do some sort of an upgrade.


Tom Bray


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

On that website, did anyone look to see if the order page got hijacked? 

I just powered up the remote ... it says it has version 4.00. I guess that means I need to build a cable an upgrade it. 

Tom


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, Glad to hear that you're making progress as I figured you would with Raymonds help.

I figured that you had other problems that turning the engine around on the track wouldn't fix.

I'd definately get DCS v. 4.10 in the remote & TIU as if I remember coreectly v. 4.0 wasn't very stable. 

Do you have a MTH Dealer nearby that could update the remote & tiu code for you??

You should also get a fuse installed between that MRC Power G and the rails say like 5 amp as that's a lot cheaper than having to replace 190.00 PS2 electronics.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That's great it sounds like you may have got things going now. It is good therapy.









On the remote... one of the biggest points of pain with v4.00, .01 and .02 was the startup bug.(seemed to affect some and not others) You could have an engine on the track and it would be recognized(via hitting the read button) but you could not get the engine to startup. V4.00 was a big release as far as changes went, they implemented a lot of enhancements and touched on a lot of stuff so it kinda wasn't surprising something might come up in the way of bugs. I personally went back to v3.11 till they came out with v4.10 and am happy now with the new release. I'm wondering if this is part of what you are encountering. 

Generally speaking I never have to cycle the power on the remote and as Chuck said, would recommend going with v4.10 as soon as you can. If you don't have a dealer that can do it I have instructions on how to do the upgrades plus the parts you need on my DCS tips page. http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/DCS_Tips.htm 

Also in case you didn't know, hitting the Read button on the remote will make the system look for all engines on the layout and will update your active engines list. Every once in a while it might miss one, just go to the engine select menu and select the engine manually from the inactive list and it should add it. 

Let us know if you need more help with getting the TIU and remote software updated. If it works fine without too much trouble then go with it, but I would put it on my list of things to do whenever you have the time.

Was also good you were running in Passive mode when you shorted, may have saved the TIU from possible damage. (another reason I like running in passive mode) I agree with Chuck on getting some 5 amp blade fuses when you have time. Walmart or autopart stores should carry them.

Also very interesting to hear you get better signal with it in passive. Sometimes it does help, it just depends. Also you may find that if you try to use the protocast feature (play music via the train speaker from a CD Player or MP3 player) then you may get better reception (no static) running the TIU in normal mode. 

Protocast demo if you dont know what I'm referring to: 

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_DCS_Protocast_Video_1_2100kbs.wmv - 41mb 
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_DCS_Protocast_Video_1_1000kbs.wmv - 20mb
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_DCS_Protocast_Video_1_150kbs.wmv - 3mb


Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I think the software was successfully updated. It was a little frustrating in that the software couldn't find the TIU except when I did the upgrade. That wasted a lot of time ... I tried saving the remote's settings and I tried to have the software automatically find the TIU ... neither worked until I upgraded the TIU firmware.


I am impressed that the remote didn't forget all its settings. I haven't tested it yet with the layout, maybe tomorrow.

Is there anything else that can be done with the serial port on the TIU? Maybe have the computer display what's going on or something?


Tom


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm, that is kinda strange as since you were on the 4.00 version in the TIU and Remote it should have worked without any trouble. Did you update both the remote and TIU software loads? (Sounds like you did just wanted to make sure.)

One thing I've found that can cause you to not be able to find the TIU when you are trying to update the remote software is if you forget to remove the 3.5 audio cable jumpers from the TIU after you've upgraded the TIU, but it doesn't sound like that was your issue.

That is one thing we shouldn't ever have to reload the remotes with future software updates. 

At this point no, there is no other use for the serial port other than TIU and remote software loads, backup/cloning of remotes and uploading/downloading sound files to/from the engines. It's certainly capable of allowing computer control of the layout, MTH just hasn't implemented it yet for whatever reason and I'm not sure they will at this point.

FYI, one feature I activate for the remote under V4.xx is MENU -> SYSTEM -> REMOTE SETUP (If i remember the menu tree correctly) and turn remote messages off. 

Enjoy. 


Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I updated everything, TIU and the remote. 

Prior to doing the update, trying to figure out which serial port to use was an issue. If the automatic find the port was used, it never found the port, the same with trying to save the remote configuration before I updated the TIU. When I ran the TIU update program and had manually configured the port (I installed a USB serial port and found where it was placed so I knew I had the correct port), it worked fine. 

The computer I used has several ports on it but I can never remember whats allocated and what isn't. Also COM1 isn't in its normal place on the computer because the cable/connector was an option, not placed with all the other connectors (you would have to see the setup to understand ... the computer is also tied into to several ham radio interface and other stuff). Of course I never seem to get around to labeling which cables go where ... whenever I do that I end up changing everything around and the labels end up wrong. 

Tom


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I was just thinking about the fuse recommendation ... I am a bit confused about where to put it. 

If I run the TIU in passive mode, can I just rely on the power supplies built in circuit breaker? Why do I want a fuse? Where would it go? 

I can see protecting the TIU, my power pack would probably do a number on it if I shorted out the track through the TIU. 

Another question: if I get a second power pack for the second loop, can I run that in passive mode too by using the second fixed voltage out port on the TIU? I am assuming that the two outside ports would only work if I use and AC supply. 

Tom Bray 

Tom Bray


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

If you get a second power pack and you permit ANY contact between the power sources via the train or the track itself, you will destroy everything. You need to be very carefull here. The loops must be completely and permanetly separate to use to power suplies. If you don't need the power (and for your two engines you don't) then save the money and the risk and don't get a second power supply.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I put the fuse in the positive wire not far from the power supply output terminal. (before any other equipment taps into the power supply wires) 

As far as running without a fuse, by running in passive mode you are protecting the TIU, but the risk is now passed down to where the short is actually occuring. Depending on what happens you can have a short run through the engines internal wiring or circuits(as is the case with the MTH Big Boy on 19.5 degree crossovers). Although some mfgs to put polyfuses to protect power patch circuits, not every possible short path is protected. (ie you can have a short within a single truck for instance in a derailment) There is always some possibility that you could have something else happen not related to a track level short (ie some internal wiring short) that you will want to limit the current flow to as low as possible to keep the likelihood of catastrophic damage occuring. In the latter case if you have a pinched wire or something the chances are damage will occur, but if you have a lower rated fuse installed you at least have a chance of protecting the electronics. Without something to limit/minimize the amperage you run a much greater risk of permanently damaging whatever circuit just got crossed. 

I had an internal short that occured in one of my Aristocraft Heavyweights when one of the light bayonet bases came loose from it's hot glue and shorted on the two power wires in the roof. I put the car on the track and turned the light switch on. Smoke immediately started billowing out. From the 3 seconds or so it was powered it completely melted the small wires in the car and I only had a 5 amp fuse on the track (which never blew). I had to dismantle the car and replace the damaged wires.


Photos of the damage:
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Aristocraft_Heavyweight_Polyfuse.htm

So in the end, you just never know what could possibly happen. 99.9% of the time nothing ever goes wrong from a derailment short, but when it does you want to try and limit the damage with a fuse if possible.


As far as running more than one power supply, I'm with John on this I'd be very careful trying to do that and personally I wouldn't do it. I have heard that techincally if you connect the grounds on the two power supplies you can use separate ports on the same TIU and even have engines cross over from one to another BUT to be honest I think this is just asking for trouble and quite honestly I just don't think it's safe or good. The chance of accidently flipping a direction switch on a transformer is very real and who knows what would happen if that occured. I also just never felt comfortable with the idea of what exactly happens when the engine makes the crossover point despite what I've read.

If you want to be able to cut power separately to the two different loops I would install a separate power switch in each line that runs to the loops. (for my sidings I have a single pole switch where I cut the power on the neg rail.) If you are needing more total power, I would buy a larger power supply. I recommend to folks the Bridgewerks TDR25 amp. (Do note that the TDR25 does not have AC power outlets on it, their Magnum SR15amp does have AC outputs in addition to the DC so if you wanted to run AC and use the variable channels to provide signal to track you could.) I'm not sure if they have larger power supplies that also output AC. The Magnum 20SRM may output AC as well as DC.

If the two loops are completely separate (where you wont' run trains from one to the other and you really wanted to run a separate power supply then I personally would proabaly buy a separate TIU (~$140) for the separate power supply. Even though it's not technically required as I understand it. 
I delayed responding as I was trying to double check on the multi transformers using difference channels on the same TIU, but haven't gotten a response yet.



Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

So 5A will power most MTH locomotives? Automotive blade fuses are not the fastest ... would a 5A circuit breaker be just as good? 

As far as burning up internal wires inside the locomotive, a 5A fuse has a lot more current capacity that a 24AWG or smaller wire has ... there isn't much you can do about that. 

I have noticed a few sparks as the engines go through the #6 switches. I am assuming that it is from the wide pickups that MTH uses and it is shorting out the 2 tracks briefly. It doesn't seem to hurt anything though. The thing is that those sparks will probably run the current up for an instant into the damage curve for the fuse, making it blow prematurely. 

The power pack does have a circuit breaker but it won't blow very fast, especially if the voltage isn't up all the way.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I now have 4 passenger cars for the the Hudson to drag around the track. That has made the response to DCS much worse. 

It appears that the problem is not the engine hearing the TIU, it is the TIU hearing the engine. Once I get the remote to believe the train is on the track, I can tell the train what to do with out too many problems although almost every commands comes back with a Check Track message. I have gotten the bell and whistle stuck on several times though. 

I am wondering if the recommendation to isolate the track into sections, if that would work better. Although ... I have a section that is isolated and it doesn't appear to work any better than the rest of the track. 

I think it is about time for me to take the OScope out and look at what is bouncing around the track. 

Tom Bray 

Tom Bray


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Tom, 

I have parallel issues with multiple cars and flickering lights and incomplete commands .... for my Hudson. 

Ray has installed some diodes or something like it in his cars to eliminate flickering. 

There was one other thread where the individual did track signal strength testing with a 28V bulb and alligator clips at test points. Sometimes the installation of a light bulb on the track at a strategic point improves signal performance. 

I'm sure that others will chime in here on the above comments. 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

3 amps will cover most MTH engines and I use 3 amp fuses for a single engine. I like having an Ampmeter so I can monitor the load.

Blade fuses will be faster than a circuit breaker.

There aren't any locations on a #6 switch that will specifically cause an MTH slider to short on an opposing rail. I would pay close attention to where the spark is occuring. Would imagine it's from incorrect frog polarity. I remove the microswitches so the frog isn't powered. 

The only other possibility for a short could be from a slider screw hanging down too low and it touches the rail head as it passes over it. Since the power supply you're using doesn't have an ampmeter it won't be so clear as to whether it's a short or not other than having a fuse blow. If it's a momentary short you will see the spike on an ampmeter. You do need to determine what is going on though. 

On the DCS response, are you still running in passive mode? What lights do you have deployed to improve the signals? (as noted on my tips page)

You can try the isolated sections... it's not how I run mine but I know it's by the book in the O gauge world. 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/23/2009 3:31 PM
Tom, 

I have parallel issues with multiple cars and flickering lights and incomplete commands .... for my Hudson. 

Ray has installed some diodes or something like it in his cars to eliminate flickering. 

There was one other thread where the individual did track signal strength testing with a 28V bulb and alligator clips at test points. Sometimes the installation of a light bulb on the track at a strategic point improves signal performance. 

I'm sure that others will chime in here on the above comments. 

gg



Hey GG,

Hmmm... What type of track are you using again? (brass or stainless?) Even when I was using slider joiners on my 120ft loop outside the first year I didn't have flickering lights on my passenger cars. Does it seem to be power pickup from the cars or do they all blink in unison? I would say you need to isolate it down to either needing to clean the track or bad track joiner connections. Are you using direct to rail railclamps? I would spend some time to isolate what's going on. 

The inductors I installed on the cars was to eliminate the negative effects on the overall DCS track signal strength on long lighted passenger trains. 


Tom,

On a four car lighted passenger train that shouldn't be significantly impacting the track signal. Try running in normal mode but get a fuse FIRST, if you are shorting on the track you are going to damage the TIU. Also i don't recall if you are using direct to rail clamps or slider joiners... what are you using?

GG's right on the lights at the track level. See my DCS tips page for more info if you need it.


Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The system is running in passive mode ... that was working much better than passing through the TIU. That is until I added the cars. 

The lights don't seem to flicker. When I had only one car, that one would flicker until I cleaned the wheels on it. 

I have a couple of the Radio Shack lights at the main junction point on the layout. Without those, nothing works very well. I will stop by the auto store and pick up a couple of fuse kits and a box of fuses. 

I will borrow the ammeter from work and see what is happening. I need to get a couple of analog meters.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not that it should make that much of a difference, but what voltage are you running to the track?


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I think the transformer puts out 22V at 100%. For some reason I think I see higher on the track but that may be due to the DCS signal being added and I have a digital VOM to read it with. 

Assuming the weather cooperates, I will be playing with it tonight ... I am supposed to have all 3 trains running at the same time. Also the track isolators came in so I am going to isolate the sections that have separate feeds to them. 

Tom Bray


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought the MRCs could put out more than that. The DCS signal shouldn't be impacting the voltage reading.

Maybe the difference between under load and not? 

Good luck.


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Just as a reminder, by the book the feeder line should go to the center(middle) of the isolated block, not at either end.


Raymond


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

So here is the deal ... grrr 
First, I think I need to try more lights around the track before I do anything. 

I added the isolators so that each feeder only powers its own section of track. I also added a new feeder half way around each loop so now each loop is broken into quarters. Right now there are one set of the Radio Shack lights at the central distribution for the tracks. I will try adding additional lights in the next couple of days. 

The initial test was just as rotten as before ... first the Hudson wanted to ignore the DCS controls all together, then I figured out if I shut off the power and then waited a minute or so after it got quiet, if would find the DCS signal on the track and sit there. With the both loops connected, neither train would acknowledge the remote, they found the DCS signal but there was no way to move them. For a good part of the evening, I just ran the system straight from the power pack ... just couldn't blow the whistle and I have the speed set somewhat conservatively when running under DC. 

I found that if I put both engines on the same track, and disconnect the second loop, I can get the DCS remote to find both of them. Once I was able to get both engines to initialize through the remote I could get them both to run around the track. The first time I did this it didn't last long because I had the recommended 3A fuse in line... the two trains got about half way around the track and then it all went dead... I removed the fused cable and went back to straight cables and was able to get both engines to initialize again. I tried both passive and direct drive through the TIU modes, either they both would work or neither of them would. 

On the second try, after both engines initialized, I plugged in the second loop. I was able to move the locomotives between the two loops just fine after that ... although I still get the "Check Track" message on occasion and there were sections of track the seem to have more problems than others. I was able to run the trains under remote control for most of the night after that. 

It may be Sunday before I get another chance to play with the system. I will make a couple more lamp assemblies and see if that will improve the situation, although I don't think that I have enough to do all the sections (I will need 10 more lamps total to do that and I have bought out both of the local Radio Shacks at this point). I am also planning on putting the oscilloscope on it and see if there is anything obvious. 

I was a bit surprised that the system behaved worse when using separate TIU outputs to each loop. Maybe it is because, even though there is 10 feet of cable between them, the passive mode has two lamps that are in parallel instead of just one lamp on each loop when powered by separate TIU outputs. 

I have to admit that I am very close to getting a dual control AC transformer and running the system that way. According to the MTH manual, the engines respond to AC just like a Lionel AC system, including the whistle button, which would cover 98% of what I am trying to do right now. 

Tom Bray


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray, check this out; I just checked my MRC Power G that I have connected to my track in the living room, it is not a complete loop yet but here are readings I got with my DVOM ( Digital Volt/Ohm Meter ). With the powetr lead disconnected from the TIU,I am getting 22.7 volts. With the power lead connected to the TIU, it is reading ( at full throttle ) 27.5 volts DC. That is voltage going into the TIU and what is comming out the other side. 
I checked the Accessory volts and got a reading of 22 volts, either way. At 90% throttle, it is reading 19.4 Volts DC and connected to the TIU it is reading 24.4 Volts DC. 
I don't know if this helps or not, and it is kind of weird that the Transformer puts out more volts connected to the TIU than when it's not. I am also having the same problem with the remote finding the engine, but I think my track is dusty. 
Cliff


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 06/23/2009 4:17 PM
Posted By GG on 06/23/2009 3:31 PM
Tom, 

I have parallel issues with multiple cars and flickering lights and incomplete commands .... for my Hudson. 

Ray has installed some diodes or something like it in his cars to eliminate flickering. 

There was one other thread where the individual did track signal strength testing with a 28V bulb and alligator clips at test points. Sometimes the installation of a light bulb on the track at a strategic point improves signal performance. 

I'm sure that others will chime in here on the above comments. 

gg



Hey GG,

Hmmm... What type of track are you using again? (brass or stainless?) Even when I was using slider joiners on my 120ft loop outside the first year I didn't have flickering lights on my passenger cars. Does it seem to be power pickup from the cars or do they all blink in unison? I would say you need to isolate it down to either needing to clean the track or bad track joiner connections. Are you using direct to rail railclamps? I would spend some time to isolate what's going on. 

The inductors I installed on the cars was to eliminate the negative effects on the overall DCS track signal strength on long lighted passenger trains. 


Tom,

On a four car lighted passenger train that shouldn't be significantly impacting the track signal. Try running in normal mode but get a fuse FIRST, if you are shorting on the track you are going to damage the TIU. Also i don't recall if you are using direct to rail clamps or slider joiners... what are you using?

GG's right on the lights at the track level. See my DCS tips page for more info if you need it.


Raymond



Ray, my track is brass and I didn't do the George pole cleaning prior to running..... I need to sweep my track and polish my errant passenger wheels. Only one passenger car had flickering lights out of the 3 on the track.

As for signal strength and when all was freshly installed, I used the remote to test at various points with 10's everywhere. The George pole technique works and only takes a couple of minutes. 

Finally, I will probably do a Nick Vasectomy on my #6's. "snip" and all is well.... 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom,

- How many linear feet is each oval?
- How many linear feet is each isolated section now?

Do not run in passive mode and use both output ports unless you have an inductor/filter to keep the signals from the two isolated.

I would be running at this point in normal mode with one loop to fixed 1 and the other to fixed 2.

Looks like you are using the original slider joiners. I would elminate those and go with SS clamps like it looks like you have on the switches.

If you have your engines parked in an area that has poor track signal, you will have problems starting them up. I will be helpful to do a track signal check with the engine running around the layout to note where you have good track singal and where you don't. That is what I think your problem is in getting them to initially start up, they are parked in a problem area. If you have to start them up, move them to an area you know you have good signal and if that doesn't work move the engine close to the point where the feeder wire is connected to the track.


Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info on the track voltages. On the signalling, I recall that you were using some heavily oxidized brass track sections and was using slider joiners and those slider joiners at one point was causing power to be cut to an entire segment of track. I'm going to keep lobbying you to clean those track ends and get some railclamps!  


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

GG,

Hehe, probably a good idea to snip it.  I just unscrewed the wire connectors and removed the microswitch. Kept them for later incase I decided I wanted to add them back on.

Good info that having to clean the railheads on oxidized brass track can sometimes be needed for good track signal.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stumpy, you got more volts going through the TIU? Good, the TIU "adds" the DCS signal to your DC, so it "rides on top of" the existing DC... so a higher voltage makes perfect sense. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

The TIU does not change the voltage levels in any way. 24v in 24v out. 18v in 18v out etc.

Cliff, I got out of what you put that the outputs of the MRC read 22v with no TIU connected and 27.5v with the TIU connected. And that means you have 27.5v going in and coming out of the TIU. Is that correct? If so, then it would seem that for some reason the MRC puts out a slightly higher voltage when under a load(even as small a draw as the TIU) and with no load. It's interesting as my Bridgewerks doesn't do that. Mine is 24v connected and disconnected from the TIU.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Raymond, if the DCS signal is added to the DC voltage, how can it NOT change the voltage? Maybe not measurable on an ordinary voltmeter, but it HAS to be added on top of the signal in passive mode... 

Edit: more research, the DCS signal is approximately 3.75 MHz using a PN code, and from an article I read, has harmonic components up to 10 MHz (of course, the 3rd harmonic)...


So an ordinary meter might detect whatever voltage the DCS signal amplitude is, as long as it's "on" a fair amount of time.

Has anyone ever put a scope on the rails and looked at the signal? I cannot find this anywhere on the web...



Regards, Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Raymond, if the DCS signal is added to the DC voltage, how can it NOT change the voltage? Maybe not measurable on an ordinary voltmeter, but it HAS to be added on top of the signal in passive mode... 

Edit: more research, the DCS signal is approximately 3.75 MHz using a PN code, and from an article I read, has harmonic components up to 10 MHz (of course, the 3rd harmonic)... 


So an ordinary meter might detect whatever voltage the DCS signal amplitude is, as long as it's "on" a fair amount of time. 

Has anyone ever put a scope on the rails and looked at the signal? I cannot find this anywhere on the web... 

These are snipets of a thread from another forum that I saved from last year... 

The DCS signal is given in the DCS patent documentation. It's mentioned in several places but page 35 lines 14 through 16 regarding custom sounds transmitted from the TIU to a locomotive gives an extra tidbit of info: "the audio signal is FM modulated at a frequency of 10.7MHz. The peak frequency deviation is about about 40KHz. 

When you put a scope on the output of the TIU, all you will see is the sine wave of the power source. In the case of MTH DCS system the signal is on the sine wave. Too see this you would need to see a signal on a signal. 

A spectrum analyser will be needed to see the FM modulated frequency data bursts that are riding the sine wave. 

DCS isn't on all the time, only when a command is sent to the engine and the engine replies..kind of like a Ethernet. 

I don't possibly see how a FM modulated signal can effect any DC voltage. 


but it HAS to be added on top of the signal in passive mode... 


This I just don't understand?? What HAS to be added on top of the signal in passive mode? 
The way I understand it is the DCS FM signal rides the wave not the wave rides the signal?


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info on the track voltages. On the signalling, I recall that you were using some heavily oxidized brass track sections and was using slider joiners and those slider joiners at one point was causing power to be cut to an entire segment of track. I'm going to keep lobbying you to clean those track ends and get some railclamps! 





Ray,

The track is all new AML Brass, it's not oxidized anywhere. I am using Split-Jaw clamps to connect the track. This is my overhead layout. I am sure the track needs to be cleaned with all the dust and dirt I have kicked up whle doing this project.

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, if you have constant DC, the FM signal is riding "on top of" the DC signal... I don't have a good way to explain this to someone who is not an electrical engineer.... 

Let me try... you can have an FM signal by itself, it's a wave (not necessarily sine) that goes positive and negative and the frequency varies, thus the "Data"... If you have constant track power DC... as we have here... then it has to be an RF signal "added" to the existing signal... 

In the case above, the person writing it was assuming AC on the rails... .and for that assumption, his description is correct, except that you could see it with a scope triggered in one-shot mode (storage scope mode)... 

In the case we have, DC, the AC FM signal is really "on top of" the DC signal, and again, looking at it with a scope, you would see that the instantaneous voltage from your DC supply would be affected by the voltage of the FM DCS signal. 

In any case, the probably does not mean anything to anyone, since the signal is pretty high freq, most people out there could not see it. 

But I maintain that you could see a difference in voltage with a voltmeter, depending on the duty cycle of the DCS signal... I have no idea if the duty cycle is high enough for this to be seen, nor do I know the peak to peak voltage of the DCS signal. 

So, I'm just curious... 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Greg, 

I fell asleep over your last blurp. 

Just woke up to realize that I have a vision of bevel gears plying an inner logging track.... 

Are you selling me your mechanical Shay c/w QSI????

My experiment re running RC / QSI on the same line with DCS is being held up.... Bevel gears have linear output in response to a perpendicular force imparted on the inside diameter of the bevel. 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

This has gotten way too far off into technical information that is not relevant to what we as the end user need to worry about.

The key parts to this whole discussion is, Cliff stated and meant that the outputs on the MRC power supply read 22volts with the throttle set to 100% and with nothing connected to it (i.e. no load). With the TIU connected to the power supply, the outputs on the MRC now reads 27.5v and 27.5v on the TIU outputs. Cliff did not mean that he was putting 22v to the TIU inputs and was getting 27.5 out. I will add that this apparently does not hapeen with all throttle type power supplies as I do not see this with my Bridgewerks.

Saying that the it makes sense to see a 5.5v volt increase of the voltage going through the TIU is not correct and it is important that those reading this for information do not get an incorrect understanding that they should be seeing this.. they won't. 

Also as Chuck said, DCS signalling is not on all the time, it's sent in bursts of data packets and even when the packets are sent there is no detectable change in voltage.

Tom, this is actually good info that Cliff has provided in case you weren't aware of it. I assume you aren't running your power supply at 100%, sounds like it needs to be set to 90%. Running at too high a voltage can cause malfunctions, but don't think that is what you have going on. I seem to recall that you weren't running it at 100% but good info nonetheless.

Also to make sure it's clear, if you are trying to run the TIU in Passive mode off one port you cannot use any other ports (in either normal or passive) mode unless you have an inductor to keep the signal separate from the two ports.


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, Hmm your right as those tests were from the O Gauge crowd using ac power. 

I understand what your getting at but in the end it doesn't really matter I guess as it's all proprietory and my system works just fine!!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By stumpycc on 06/27/2009 3:42 PM
Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info on the track voltages. On the signalling, I recall that you were using some heavily oxidized brass track sections and was using slider joiners and those slider joiners at one point was causing power to be cut to an entire segment of track. I'm going to keep lobbying you to clean those track ends and get some railclamps! 





Ray,

The track is all new AML Brass, it's not oxidized anywhere. I am using Split-Jaw clamps to connect the track. This is my overhead layout. I am sure the track needs to be cleaned with all the dust and dirt I have kicked up whle doing this project.

Cliff






Cliff, 

AML flex (or otherwise) and Split-Jaw is a real winner combo. (Brass) 

I am tickled pink with these manufacturers.... 

You simply suffer from a bit of dust... 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/27/2009 5:58 PM
Posted By stumpycc on 06/27/2009 3:42 PM
Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info on the track voltages. On the signalling, I recall that you were using some heavily oxidized brass track sections and was using slider joiners and those slider joiners at one point was causing power to be cut to an entire segment of track. I'm going to keep lobbying you to clean those track ends and get some railclamps! 





Ray,

The track is all new AML Brass, it's not oxidized anywhere. I am using Split-Jaw clamps to connect the track. This is my overhead layout. I am sure the track needs to be cleaned with all the dust and dirt I have kicked up whle doing this project.

Cliff






Cliff, 

AML flex (or otherwise) and Split-Jaw is a real winner combo. (Brass) 

I am tickled pink with these manufacturers.... 

You simply suffer from a bit of dust... 

gg











HAAAAAAAAA, Assimilated........................HE HE HE


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/27/2009 7:27 PM
Posted By GG on 06/27/2009 5:58 PM
Posted By stumpycc on 06/27/2009 3:42 PM
Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info on the track voltages. On the signalling, I recall that you were using some heavily oxidized brass track sections and was using slider joiners and those slider joiners at one point was causing power to be cut to an entire segment of track. I'm going to keep lobbying you to clean those track ends and get some railclamps! 





Ray,

The track is all new AML Brass, it's not oxidized anywhere. I am using Split-Jaw clamps to connect the track. This is my overhead layout. I am sure the track needs to be cleaned with all the dust and dirt I have kicked up whle doing this project.

Cliff






Cliff, 

AML flex (or otherwise) and Split-Jaw is a real winner combo. (Brass) 

I am tickled pink with these manufacturers.... 

You simply suffer from a bit of dust... 

gg











HAAAAAAAAA, Assimilated........................HE HE HE


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg
>*Has anyone ever put a scope on the rails and looked at the signal?
note: DC track power - Scope AC coupled - X10 Probe - Approx 2v P-P signal max.*
*......Sorry but the .JPG compression.









READ generates a single multicast packet to all engines on the track.
Each engine responds with a status packet with IT's ID info/status.
...welcome to the wonderful world of ...'NETWORK on RAILS'....








Ray








*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ray! 

Sorry all, did not mean to derail the discussion.. but this explanation helps a lot. Is that signal 2 v p-p Ray? 

(and of course that means the DC level, for an instant, goes up 1 volt).... now I know... 

So with that infrequent transmission, and so fast, no meter would read that 1 volt rise.... 

This really helps Ray... I'd love to put the pix on my site to explain the difference between DCS and DCC signals. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg and others - correct me if I am wrong, but DCS is like FM Radio (Frequency Modulated DC in this case) while DCC is like Digital Radio (the power "transport" itself contains the signal information).

In order for FM to not have a negative effect on the motor the frequency must be very high (into the upper Khz) otherwise you would hear a hum which can have a negative impact on the motor (don't ask where I did remember this from). Now with only small P2P modulation this signal is extremely sensitive to impedance (resistance, inductivity) distortion, and becasue of high frequency re-feeding the signal from other points will potentially cause phase shifts (e.g 10 gauge ground wire versus brass track). Phase shifts if even so minute have more impact on high frequency versus low frequency. Hence DCS is more error prone the larger the layout becomes.

If my assertion is correct, then what might work for HO might not work great for G.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually DCC is FM with the entire signal 20 or more volts p-p... DCS is constant power with a PN coded signal "riding on" the power (the constant AC or DC is the carrier), and the signal in this case looks like 2 volts p-p. 

It would be logical to assume that this signal is more sensitive to interference and noise and impedance changes. 

The extensive discussions and many posts by experts bear this out. It takes careful planning and some "tweaks" to make it work. But with all the great help here on MLS, it can be done! 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Axel,

The general assertion of the larger the layout the more prone to issue is correct and proven out in actual application. The effects of resistance does seem to be true to in actual application. It's the reason I've felt deployments of brass track (with brass clamps) of say 200ft have less signal strength issues (none from my layouts) than a Stainless steel one (with stainless clamps) of the same length. In the end, the fundamentals of a good outdoor track power layout (direct to rail clamps and feeders when using Stainless steel) are going to be the same for one run under DCS. Just as the voltage drop can be an issue at higher amps over longer runs with Stainless steel rail and thus requires jumper wires to resolve, the needs of DCS follow the same curve/pattern.

To provide some context to this, for a couple of years I ran 700ft of layout with a single output port on a TIU which for most of us is a TON of track. I did have a couple of areas of degraded signal which is why I'm now running with two different ports (in passive mode). It also appears from what I have been able to gather from the O gauge community, we have fewer issues in Largescale than in O where they seem to generally recommend limiting blocks down to 100ft. (DCS was made originally for O) When I just had a simple 120ft loop (with slider joiners and stainless steel rail and one power feed connection point) I never had track signal issues. 

It is unfortunate that I can't visit Tom's place to help him get it sorted out as I would like to see everything myself to help understand what the missing piece is here and to see the extent of any signal issues. Seems more info si needed to understand as in this case it doesn't sound like there is anywhere near enough linear feet to really be causing major issues. The Stainless rail is making this a little more challenging. 


Tom, I will also share that in setting up my original layout that I tried having dedicated runs from the TIU to the various feeder points on the layout and also tried isolated blocks (more per the O gauge book). In the end I settled on a buss wiring configuration with only one run from the TIU to each loop as I didn't get as good a results with the isloated blocks method. (Buss means running the jumpers from that connection point to the latter jumper points and repeating till you come back around to the original feeder point.) 

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Buss%20Wiring%20Diagram.jpg - note there are no spaces between the feeder runs, they are connected on the same splitjaw clamp.

For your issues I really think we are down to feeder configuration, probably track connection joints and MAYBE transformer but I really wouldn't think the MRC would be causing any issues being the type it is (ie. not a switching supply). 

If you have poor track connection points from slider joiners, DCS is essentially putting in your face (in the form of an error message) what you wouldn't normally see that clearly running on just analog track power. Under analog power your engine will slow down some because of voltage drop caused by the bad connection (maybe studder if it's really bad and it interminttantly breaks contact) and you might not think too much of it. It's just saying digitally on a screen what you may not have noticed in your engine (yet). 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, brings up another question, how are you connecting the feeders to the track? What makes up the parts of the connection? (clamp and what else?)


Raymond


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Golly you guys are amazing. I just plug the darn things in and they work. Oh, and while I am a rocket scientist and have the papers to prove it, you dont have to be one to know when the trains work. 
When the trains don't work, it is my fault 99.44% of the time. Going back to the topic, I have a question: 

MY TIUs all have a voltage drop, so 22.5v in does not get much more than 20.5v out. The load on the track has nothing to do with that and neither does the signal. Its really simple: the TIU requires power to operate! But whatever, the point is what the track sees and what the TIUs sees is not the same. IF you power the TIU from the aux power port, then there is no voltage drop. But in this case, that is not what is happening. 

I still don't know why anyone would use two ports for a simple two loop track plan. It unnecessarily complicates things, and in this case may have created an issue. Better to use two TIUs in super mode - but that is another story. However if you designate one loop as track one and the other as track two, it would probably work. But I have not seen that you tried this. To start up the Hudson on track two you have switch tracks (push the track button to select track two) before you push start up. Since the engine sometimes responds to speed inputs, this may be your problem. 

Loss of controll of the hudson IS caused by the signal not getting to the engine. We may not like that, but that is the only cause, since the engine works on one loop and not the other. 

Therefore, the problem is in the track plan or set up, and not the TIU or the engine. IF changing the engine direction or the polarity of the wires (both to the TIU and to the track) did not fix the issue (and here it didnt) then the problem is the signal is scrambled by the loops. Isolating them and running both off FIXED 1 output will solve that issue. 

Since the track is clean (right?) and the joints are solid (if you dont have rail joints go get them) then the only other possibility is eliminated.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I will attempt to rehash were I am at at the moment.: 
Right now I have a star configuration going to 4 different locations on the each track loop. Saturday I added isolators to each of the 4 corners of loop. If I eliminate the inside loop, everything seems to be pretty happy. The two loops are totally isolated from each other except when a train transitions through a switch from one to the other. 

Using the outside loop, I haven't tried just running on the inside one yet, both engines can chase each other around and I am getting responses back correctly (the remote is quite happy). 

If I initialize the trains with only one loop attached and then add the other loop, the trains respond to the commands just fine. The remote complains about "check track". In my mind, that means that the engine response is getting garbled. 

For whatever reason, running in Passive mode, the output of the TIU is fed into the power system, everything works slightly better than if I run the power through 2 TIU ports. 

It is very close to working but not quite. I still need to add more "ballast" in the form of lamps on each segment ... that may fix the rest of the problems. 

The layout has come a long way. The system started off with only one loop in place. I was able to run one train around the loop and everything worked pretty well. Then I added more passenger cars and things got flakey. Adding more track made it worse, to the point where DCS didn't work at all. 

So that is where I am. If I get the trains initialized, I can control the trains just fine, I just can't get them to send the ACK back to the controller. 

Tom


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, When you have just one engine running on the outside loop at say 35 smph what is the DCS signal strength all the way around the loop?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

While not at all into DCS I would like to share my experience from this afternoon. 
My layout is between 8 and 5 years old. In the older section while laying stainless steel track, I had some left overs of brass splitjaws and said to myself why not use them. So now 8 years later, I try to run my trains, and in certain section away from the feeding point it starts running very sluggish. I also hear a high pitch humming noise. After some investigation I disconnecting certain portions of track and reconnecting it. Noise disappears, noise comes back. To make a long story short, in many areas where I had the brass clamps the corrosion was so bad that it created such a high resistance that when I wanted to remove the brass clamps they were hot like a soldering iron. Clamp by clamp I replaced them the buzz disappeared and the trains are running fine.

So the moral of the story wiring matters, clamp matter even more, not year 1,2 or 3 but definitely after a longer time!!!!!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 06/28/2009 5:46 PM
While not at all into DCS I would like to share my experience from this afternoon. 
My layout is between 8 and 5 years old. In the older section while laying stainless steel track, I had some left overs of brass splitjaws and said to myself why not use them. So now 8 years later, I try to run my trains, and in certain section away from the feeding point it starts running very sluggish. I also hear a high pitch humming noise. After some investigation I disconnecting certain portions of track and reconnecting it. Noise disappears, noise comes back. To make a long story short, in many areas where I had the brass clamps the corrosion was so bad that it created such a high resistance that when I wanted to remove the brass clamps they were hot like a soldering iron. Clamp by clamp I replaced them the buzz disappeared and the trains are running fine.

So the moral of the story wiring matters, clamp matter even more, not year 1,2 or 3 but definitely after a longer time!!!!!




Axel, good point made.

Dissimilar metals do not mix re galvanic corrosion. If you are a brass man... let it be brass. Otherwise should you be SS or Stainless .... so be it... Pick your poison. 

Bottom line... do not mix alloys... Remember the Noble series of gavanic corrosion. ( I do remember the impact however having studied the concept 35 years ago makes me a bit outdated on this) 

Trust me me lads..... this from an old fart... (analogy... don't mix ammonia with bleach in the bathroom... ) 


gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That is interesting to hear about the brass clamps on SS rail. I had wondered about that. I had some brass clamps on SS rail outside for a couple years before I finally replaced them with SS clamps and while I guess they weren't outside long enough to corrode, I did see what looked like white specs on the clamp. I wondered if that was from galvanic corrosion.

Not to get this too of topic but since you've had track power layout for so long outside, I assume you have sections of brass clamps on brass rail. How have they help up over the long term? Do you have to clean them periodically or have you been able to leave them as is and they work fine?

Good to point that out GG. 

On the TIU voltage drop, hmm I wonder why I'm not seeing that in mine. Interesting, maybe a change in design was made at some point. A little voltage drop is something I would believe though.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Brass will oxidize no matter what. It's just a matter of time. That mixed with galvanic action (I used to leave the DCC power on 7/24) is not great... I have not seen problems with SS clamps on brass, but I like keeping the metal the same. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 06/28/2009 8:07 PM
That is interesting to hear about the brass clamps on SS rail. I had wondered about that. I had some brass clamps on SS rail outside for a couple years before I finally replaced them with SS clamps and while I guess they weren't outside long enough to corrode, I did see what looked like white specs on the clamp. I wondered if that was from galvanic corrosion.

Not to get this too of topic but since you've had track power layout for so long outside, I assume you have sections of brass clamps on brass rail. How have they help up over the long term? Do you have to clean them periodically or have you been able to leave them as is and they work fine?

Good to point that out GG. 

On the TIU voltage drop, hmm I wonder why I'm not seeing that in mine. Interesting, maybe a change in design was made at some point. A little voltage drop is something I would believe though.


Raymond





Long term is not... I speak theory and not applied as it applies to my install. I can say that my layout is new.. everything is brass and the split jaw looks as new as installed. However in real life, in RV life and hot water tanks, in industry as it applies to dissimilar metals with an electolyte connecting the two, I can say that the higher Noble metal will erode with time...... this can create an issue over time as to conductivity.. 

Remember what I said here. Father time combined with the environment can upset the equation re system performance. Some of us have issues... others not. .... 

Stick with like metals and eliminate a "factor"... 

gg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

On the TIU voltage drop, hmm I wonder why I'm not seeing that in mine. Interesting, maybe a change in design was made at some point. A little voltage drop is something I would believe though.


My TIU is the same, 24.9 volts in & 24.9 volts out on channels fixed 1 & 2.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/28/2009 9:16 PM
Brass will oxidize no matter what. It's just a matter of time. That mixed with galvanic action (I used to leave the DCC power on 7/24) is not great... I have not seen problems with SS clamps on brass, but I like keeping the metal the same. 

Regards, Greg




Greg yes, brass and in other materials will oxidize or "tarnish" ... Think silver .... wow.... Leaving power on 24/7 probably did not help. 

SS actually forms a passive layer on the surface and once established "rusting" will not happen. My personal question is how conductive the passive layer is...(Thus lower conductivity of SS) Complicating the issue is the source of the wrought or bar where the SS was forged or cast.... and the presence of iron in the manufacturing process. 

Someday I will scan in some Chemical information on SS etc and open a new thread on this topic. 

Bone chilling .... Nick and Semper would be so excited.... 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Edited... left out the RED words


GG, I've had a little college, including a degree in Physics from a University... I do understand what you are saying. 

SS has a very thin layer of chromium oxide... nothing like the oxides that form on brass... 

It's so thin, it's like it's not there... you can find this info anywhere.... and the SS is not cast... and not forged...* it is *extruded or rolled... and the alloys are well known... 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/28/2009 10:34 PM
GG, I've had a little college, including a degree in Physics from a University... I do understand what you are saying. 

SS has a very thin layer of chromium oxide... nothing like the oxides that form on brass... 

It's so thin, it's like it's not there... you can find this info anywhere.... and the SS is not cast... and not forged... extruded or rolled... and the alloys are well known... 

Regards, Greg



Yo Greg, If SS is not cast, nor forged, nor extruded, nor rolled then what is the process? 

gg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

GG, 
pretty sure he meant they are extruded and/or rolled. 

regarding your silver example... I assume you meant Sterling Silver, as pure silver doesn't tarnish. It's the 75 parts copper out of a thousand total, that causes S. Silver to tarnish. It was a small trade off for a more maleable metal. 

John


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes John, pretty sure it was a typo. Neither here nor there. 

Yes Stirling and did you know that by keeping a stick of camphor in the same china cabnet with your silver, it will not tarnish. I only need to clean my silver once per year. As to why camphor works, I really don't know. Probably something to do with the presence or lack of oxygen. 

See below for some tidbits: 

gg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Camphor works because it is more reactive to oxygen than sterling silver is. So in a cabinet, where there is little exchange of air with the outside, the camphor reacts with the oxygen, leaving mostly nitrogen in the cabinet. That means the silver doesn't tarnish.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By John Allman on 06/29/2009 9:35 AM
Camphor works because it is more reactive to oxygen than sterling silver is. So in a cabinet, where there is little exchange of air with the outside, the camphor reacts with the oxygen, leaving mostly nitrogen in the cabinet. That means the silver doesn't tarnish.


At last ! I've been thinking about this for the past 3 decades..... (not that I'm slow or anything ... ) 

Thanks for solving one of my life's little mysteries... 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I fixed my typo... never type when the wife is asking you if she still looks pretty..... ha ha ha... 

Funny thing, some of the SS rail is extruded, not rolled, explains the finish in some cases. 

By the way, you can go on theory all you want, but as a degreed Physicist (I actually did some stuff I cannot talk about!!) theory is only the START of understanding things, and what goes on outside with moisture, power, acid/alkaline soil, humidity, etc. makes the results variable to the extreme. 

This is why some people can have brass track outdoors with virtually no maintenance and others have to scrub oxide off every day... 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

As a physist, explain this to me - my ultra hot brass clamps?????

The track power was about 60' away from the brass clamp. There was not load (as in locomotive etc.) beyond the brass clamp section, yet the clamp was burning hot?

A load in form of biomaterial somewhere in the remaining track? For resistiance to occur you need to have a load. Weird - the more I think about it.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

That is strange Axel...was the ground wet? Are the soils conductive or something? 

All this discussion about oxidation makes me wonder--could we add some sort of cathodic protection such as zinc anodes? 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, moisture or some other "load" past the clamp... and enough load to make it hot... 

I'd start tracing that down. I know there is a small load from the leakage from moisture on my track... 

I would start by seeing if you could measure the current, and then you could start disconnecting track sections until you found where the "load" was... 

I do not think you could add cathodic protection like in a boat... basically on a boat you have the metal connected at the same point in the circuit as the rest of the boat... so given a choice between the anode and some other piece of metal in the water, the anode gets chosen. 

In this case, you have current flowing through a joiner, so you would have to establish a parallel path for the galvanic current to flow through instead of through the joiner... really not workable... 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I'm thinking more like on a steel pipeline, where it is common to have zinc anodes along the line. Isn't it just that the anode has to lose electrons more easily than the metal you want to protect? 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right, exactly the same example as the boat.... not the same as our track in my opinion, we have better insulators.... the boat and the pipeline have anodes to protect from contact/galvanic action with the ground. 

This problem is galvanic action when connecting rails together with a different metal... the action between sections of rails not between rails and ground... 

Basically your "sacrificial anode" has to be in parallel with the "problem", in this case in parallel with EVERY rail joint that had a joiner of dissimilar metals... not really practical... 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

OH- I think I got my wires crossed--I was thinking more of stopping the oxidation on brass track, not Axel's problem. Sorry about that! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oxidation is more typically related to moisture and the stuff in the local atmosphere, although I am sure it can also be affected by voltage on the rails. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

For future reference, the DCS wiring topic is continued in this thread:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/34/postid/110545/view/topic/Default.aspx 


Raymond


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Cudo's to Ray, Tom. 

This is not a product issue but simply a system issue.


(DCS or DCC or RC or DC) All the same as it applies to getting messages to our fearless locos.. 

gg 




No, it's not.
If I ever had to gyrate my thoughts like that to figure out how to communicate with my RC locomotives, I would have been out of the hobby LONG before now.

Anytime I have to have a locomotive pointing one direction on the track to receive signals, I pitch it.

Good reading, however.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree, I don't have any of these problems with my ZIMO DCC and never had.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 04 Jul 2009 05:40 AM 
I agree, I don't have any of these problems with my ZIMO DCC and never had. 

Gents, at the hobby shop a while back I had the opportunity to field this topic with DC and DCC buffs. So I know that there is no ideal system. 

Let's drop this as I think that a forum hearing on the merits of systems just opens up the venue for subjective views and sales pitches. 

Regards, 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Yaaaaaaaaaaa Dont mess with GG, he'll slap you back to DC







Of course this is the 4th and ive been drinkin heavaLy







HE HE EH







*


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