# LGB Starter Set Problem--Only Oval?



## KB1GCB (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

My name is John and I live in Rhode Island. Purchased a LGB starter set (ATSF) from Walthers this Christmas (2012) for my young grandson and myself. We have loads of fun with this small oval layout. I even purchased an engineer's cap for JP (age 2) and myself. The layout is indoors. Well anyway . . . . 

I am having a slight problem with the engine developing noise over time. It squeaks and rattles, which gets louder and louder over time. I did oil the wheels and mechanism a few times, including the train cars. Also cleaned the track with a paper towel. The unusual thing is it happens when the train goes forward, but not going in reverse. When I take the train set off the tracks and set it up in the opposite direction (clockwise to counter-clockwise) it disappears for a while. I have had to do this a few times since Christmas. But then it starts again after about a week or two. I enjoy running it every morning when I get up and during the day--every day. I guess I not only got this set for my grandson, but me also! &^)

I was thinking that since the layout is only an oval--the train is always turning. Could this have anything to do with the problem? I don't have one straight track in the layout. Was hoping to keep it this nice small size (approx. 4ft oval). 

Just a side note: Very happy with the service from Walthers. A little disappointed with my LBG set though. Was surprised how much plastic on this set. I know that LGB is now made by Markin. Do they still make all metal engines--probably have to mortgage the house. First set that arrived for Christmas had a defective engine which stopped running after about one week. Walters promptly replaced before Christmas (wanted it around the Christmas tree for JP). Then the new engine's light bulb burnt out after about 2 weeks. I know this was a small problem and Walters took care of this again. But anyway, Walters was great and I will continue to buy from them. Sorry for the off topic, but just wanted to give some additional info. 

Thank you in advance for your time and effort in helping me! A wonderful and informative forum!

John


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By KB1GCB on 26 Feb 2013 08:00 AM 
Hi Everyone,

My name is John and I live in Rhode Island. Purchased a LGB starter set (ATSF) from Walthers this Christmas (2012) for my young grandson and myself. We have loads of fun with this small oval layout. I even purchased an engineer's cap for JP (age 2) and myself. The layout is indoors. Well anyway . . . . 

I am having a slight problem with the engine developing noise over time. It squeaks and rattles, which gets louder and louder over time. I did oil the wheels and mechanism a few times, including the train cars. Also cleaned the track with a paper towel. The unusual thing is it happens when the train goes forward, but not going in reverse. When I take the train set off the tracks and set it up in the opposite direction (clockwise to counter-clockwise) it disappears for a while. I have had to do this a few times since Christmas. But then it starts again after about a week or two. I enjoy running it every morning when I get up and during the day--every day. I guess I not only got this set for my grandson, but me also! &^)

I was thinking that since the layout is only an oval--the train is always turning. Could this have anything to do with the problem? I don't have one straight track in the layout. Was hoping to keep it this nice small size (approx. 4ft oval). 

Just a side note: Very happy with the service from Walthers. A little disappointed with my LBG set though. Was surprised how much plastic on this set. I know that LGB is now made by Markin. Do they still make all metal engines--probably have to mortgage the house. First set that arrived for Christmas had a defective engine which stopped running after about one week. Walters promptly replaced before Christmas (wanted it around the Christmas tree for JP). Then the new engine's light bulb burnt out after about 2 weeks. I know this was a small problem and Walters took care of this again. But anyway, Walters was great and I will continue to buy from them. Sorry for the off topic, but just wanted to give some additional info. 

Thank you in advance for your time and effort in helping me! A wonderful and informative forum!

John


First, Welcome to MLS John.









What you describe as an oval is actually a circle....NO straight track involved. This radius of 2 feet is very sharp for most locomotives, but your little engine is essentially a 0-4-0 with the added 2-wheel lead truck. You COULD purchase a couple of sections of short straight track to fit in the circle and then see if that coorects the problem-noisy. You said you piled the wheels and the mechanism. Can you get grease on any of the gears? Try that.

I have some LGB products from back in the mid-eighties. These were all built in Germany and the quality of LGB's product has changed since then. In those days, their engines were bullet-proof and quiet. I can't think of anything that could be causing this problem unless it is just a fault of this type of engine or your your particular loco. I haven't had much to do with LGB since the backruptcy and subsequent takeover by other companies, so I'm not much help. Hopefully someone familiar with the newer products will jump in. Good luck.


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

you know its really hard to say 
i have two of the types loco that you do, 
and, they are pretty heavy 

and while a short wheelbase that should handle the curve, 
there are 2 things that come to mind 
first, these are chinese made, and i have heard that the gears are subject to releatively fast wear compared to the older german LGB locos- (so i avoid heavy loads-the loco will pull them but the gears take the brunt of it) 

second, between or behind (cant recall off hand) the drivers, on the side of the chassis, is a small hole, with the end of an idler gear axel sitting in it (not visible from the outside) , this needs A DROP of plastic compatible oil 

third, too much oil will cause you trouible-these locos come with inferior grease (white and precious little of it on the gears from the factory) which needs to be supplemented with a SMALL DAB of high quality model train grease, such as Hob E Lub teflon based lube, or the LGB stuff -the best- in the small toothpaste style tube- and a single drop OF OIL on each driver axel where it enters the motor block-this provides lube between the plain metal axel and the motor block plastic-you can do this with a long nose oil applicator between the inside of the wheel and motor block-thats it-*do not use vaseline or some make shift lube- do not use 3 in1 or anything other than a model train type lube, compatible with plastic-yes its really that important-you would need labelle 108 and heavy plastic compatible gear grease , either with teflon or graphite -and use grease on the gears-it sticks, not oil
* 
the 4 ft radius curves produce drag, even on this loco, and i fear a good deal 

i have a far smaller lgb loco, the field railway types, (hlaf the length of your loco type) and even they have a bit of drag on the tight 4 ft radius curves 

a solution is to use the 5 ft (R2) radius, which will dramatcially reduce drag-and of course as mentioned straights (which i presume you DO have since you say an oval) 

another i have used, but only for short periods and as a matter of personal curiosity and experimentation (since real railroads did lubricate tight curves) , was to add a tiny bit of oil to the tracks-while this will ease the binding on the curves, it also will make the loco slip, and generally result in a dark colored oily film which must be removed completely-i don t do this anymore, and i dont recommend it overall-and this wont reduce the noise you hear 

the vast majority of LGB locos were plastic, the exception being a handful of short custom run exclusives-plastic if fine andususally excellent
having an all metal engine, per se, wont likely get you better quality-there is nothing wrong or substandard about plasitc locos, and in particular, those of LGB 
the chinese made locos howevr, do have a more brittle and less forgiving plastic than thier earlier german made counterparts, and the smaller items such as tender steps can break unless one is mindful (and parts for these particular locos can be almost impossible to get,and if you can, are often stupidly pricey) 

the noise is likely a whirring of an idler reduction gear between the motor worm gear and the driver axels (this is the one i mention above to lubricate ) 
mine too have a slight whir to them and i think this is inherent to the loco and may be reduced if you lubricate as ive mentioned 

if you choose to remove the bottom plate of the loco, which covers the drive gears, it is critical that you do not alter the position of the drivers (ie "quartering") 
you can, using a number 1 phillips, turn the loco upside down , and secured and steady, on a towel or soft surface, and carefully add a small dab of grease to the two exposed gears and close it up-DO NOT MOVE THE WHEELS WITH THE COVER OFF-a small dab means the size of a pencil eraser or pea 

these two lube suggestions may reduce the noise - i have found that in particular the teflon grease seems to reduce noise better than all tohers i have used-dont know why but it has-all thing being equal, if you can get lgb grease , this is what i would chose nonetheless
hope this helps 

if after doing this your loco lurches or does not run smoothly, you have altered the quartering of the driver wheels, and let us know and well help you set it right- 

BTW if you chose to do nothing, likely the loco will last for years anyway, just with the whir


----------



## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Most likely what going on is that the metal wheels are rubbing the plastic side frames in the tight corners,turn the cars and loco over and move the wheels side to side and see if they touch the plastic side frames.

It can make a hellava squeak till it wears in a bit.

J.


----------



## KB1GCB (Feb 26, 2013)

Thank you for the replies and information!

Yes, I called it an oval when it is a circle--sorry. I am going to add 4 straight tracks (LGB) and also buy the correct grease/oil. Do you think the 4 straight tracks will reduce the drag and help quite a bit? Thanks again for making my large scale train experience more enjoyable. 

John


----------



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Posted By KB1GCB on 26 Feb 2013 10:35 AM 
Thank you for the replies and information!

Yes, I called it an oval when it is a circle--sorry. I am going to add 4 straight tracks (LGB) and also buy the correct grease/oil. Do you think the 4 straight tracks will reduce the drag and help quite a bit? Thanks again for making my large scale train experience more enjoyable. 

John



John, I am from Warwick RI.
I currently have a temporary track setup in my basement as I have been testing/checking all of my engines getting prepaired for this summer when I build my new outdoor layout.
Anyway, if you want to stop by I can take a look at your engine for you and can run it on my test track. It has 8' diameter curves and 4' straight sections so this would tell you if it is your engine or the small circle that you are running on that is giving you issues.
I am about 1/4 mile away from Apponaug Color Shop in Warwick.

Send me a email if you wish: [email protected]

Vinny


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

You will get longer life out of your locomotive it you run it both clockwise and counterclockwise and be sure to follow the lubrication suggestions by the other responders.


Chuck


----------



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

John (the OP) stopped over my house tonight to run the engine on my test track. 
The only thing I noticed, and I wouldn't even be concerned about, was you could hear a slight gear noise almost like the teeth not aligning up properly. This only happened after the engine was running for a few minutes and I stopped it and ran it in reverse. 
The sound also disappeared after it ran for a few seconds at various speeds. 
Overall I liked the engine a lot, I thought it ran very smooth and quiet....so much so I may even buy one for my collection! 
It had what I call the typical LGB engine whine when it was running, very smooth operation from a entry level loco. 

Compared to my USAT Dockside loco (which sounds like a sewing machine) this little engine was extremely quiet. 

Now we were running it on 8' diameter curves, so possibly....possibly on the tighter radius it may have a little more gear chatter issues, but I still don't think it is a very minor concern. 
I also opened up the gear box to check it out and the gears didn't look like they has any excessive wear, or any knicks in them. It also had a decent amount of gear grease in their but probably wouldn't hurt to add a little more. 

Nice little engine, and nice to meet another local G-scaler!


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Do not add more grease!!!! Too much grease for some reason finds its way into the motor and creates carbon on the armature which destroys the motor. 
I have seen this happen with brand new motors which were over greased when installed. Only grease the gears, oil the axles and idler shafts. 

Remember the Brylcream add from long ago A little dab will do ya!!!


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

dan im at a loss regsarding your post 
"do not add more grease!", 
yet these often arrive with barely a smear of cheap white grease-(this is in my experieince the hallmark of chinese made lgb-be it my 3 forneys from china, my 3 Genesis, or my two shorty US 0-4-0/2-4-0's-every one has been niggardly in regard to factory lube-and the white grease appears to be inferioir to the older amber colored LGB type grease-so a bit more should not create an issue not find its way upward tot he armature) 

and then at the end you confirm "only grease the gears...," etc 

so if i were the OP, id be confused -i agree excessive grease is bad-but no one has suggested this, and a specific amount was suggested for guidance

having read the posts again, i dont see anything where excessive grease was suggested, (pea or sixe of pencil eraser) nor that it be applied anywhere but the gears -and these have an idler too boot, more than the usual LGB loco arrangements

so could you please clarify?


----------



## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

Vinny opened up the gear box and pointed out, it has a decent amount of grease. Therefore, adding more would be useless. Like Dan, I to have seen damaged motors from over greasing and oiling. If there is grease hanging off the covers and the gearbox, it is simply wasted grease and there for no need to add more.


However , I do in removing old grease completely and adding fresh now and then. This alone has saved the life of my mogul idlers and I don't baby them. 


The OP suggested a Sqeak coming from the engine. Then when he changed direction it went away. Sqeaking from an LGB can only be a couple of things. 
1. Carbon brushes on the back of the wheels can make a horrible sqeak. ( most common)
2. The idler shaft ( which is not that common but tend to be on this particular loco)
3. I have had the cross head sqeak on a few also
4. Rare occasion , the motor bearings


If I had to bet , I would put money on the carbon brushes for power pickup. Especially because it goes away when direction is changed and then comes back after awhile. This puts pressure on the opposite wheel then the other starts sqeaking. Also, note how it didn't sqeak on the larger 8 ft curves.


An Idler gear arrangement is nothing out of the norm for LGB. For example, Mogul, mallet, alco, F7, 2-4-0, 2085D mallet, Rugen, Many more.


The Roundhouse RnR


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you running this on carpet? One thing about running indoors on the floor is that carpet fibres and hair CAN get wound around the axles and crankpins causing a lot of drag. I've resuscitated several "problem children" just by removing a bunch of oily hair. (a hobby knife and tweezers job, unless it's really bad)


----------



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Just to add to what I previously had posted. 
One other thing that I think was throwing John off a little thinking there may have been a problem is that he was hearing the clacking sound of the contact plates hitting the seams where the track couples together, and was not sure what the sound was. 

Seeing how he is new to running large scale trains he most likely was not used to hearing the sound that everyone else in the hobby takes for granted. 
He will get used to it! 

If he wants to sell it I will gladly take it off his hands, I thought it ran great! 

Now to get him to build a large outdoor layout is next! or he is more then welcome to come down to my house when mine hopefully gets built this year to run some trains.


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

vinny good work 
nice that you were able to help the OP 

it took me awhile to warm up to these locos, as they are an abomination for certain 
yet , being so compact and very american, they do grow on one, and they do run really nicely 

good to hear that the OPs had plenty of grease-and that its running fine


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By TheRoundHouseRnR on 27 Feb 2013 10:32 AM 


Vinny opened up the gear box and pointed out, it has a decent amount of grease. Therefore, adding more would be useless. Like Dan, I to have seen damaged motors from over greasing and oiling. If there is grease hanging off the covers and the gearbox, it is simply wasted grease and there for no need to add more.


However , I do in removing old grease completely and adding fresh now and then. This alone has saved the life of my mogul idlers and I don't baby them. 


The OP suggested a Sqeak coming from the engine. Then when he changed direction it went away. Sqeaking from an LGB can only be a couple of things. 
1. Carbon brushes on the back of the wheels can make a horrible sqeak. ( most common)
2. The idler shaft ( which is not that common but tend to be on this particular loco)
3. I have had the cross head sqeak on a few also
4. Rare occasion , the motor bearings


If I had to bet , I would put money on the carbon brushes for power pickup. Especially because it goes away when direction is changed and then comes back after awhile. This puts pressure on the opposite wheel then the other starts sqeaking. Also, note how it didn't sqeak on the larger 8 ft curves.


An Idler gear arrangement is nothing out of the norm for LGB. For example, Mogul, mallet, alco, F7, 2-4-0, 2085D mallet, Rugen, Many more.


The Roundhouse RnR



well , i didnt have this info from vinny at the time i made a suggestion, based on my experience with these locosand therefore it wasnt confirmed that there was adequate grease 

obviously your guess turned out to be almost as good as mine , as it was the gears as i understand vinny's post
and while idlers are common, for these locos, they do seem to cause more noise than in any other , as i have all of them but for the rugen and have never had the whir that these make


----------



## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

This post was directed towards your question to Dan as to why he said about not over doing it on the grease. Vinny posted about the decent amount of grease a day before you asked Dan about why he said what he said. Must be confusion somewhere in the mix. 

What i get from the post is that there is no problem at all. He said typical LGB gear whine. Apparently , one of the noises the OP thought was bad was the sliders clicking on the rail joints. NO ONE has said anything yet about the squeak to confirm that problem. And No one said that gears are the problem . So I think its still anyones guess. Maybe there is nothing wrong. One of the main problems I have read was that it would squeak after running , then when turned around. It would go away for a few hours. This would have nothing to do with grease or the gears. 


And you confused me on the comment of saying that this engine is out of the norm with the idlers gears , which means it would take more grease?? Now, your saying that it is not unusual. Also , something to take note of is, this loco has its own special idler gear not used in any other LGB loco. 


Sorry if I have ruffled your feathers. I was not trying to. 

The Roundhouse RnR


----------



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

There was no squeaks heard while I was running the engine, maybe because of the 8' diameter curve as to the 4' diameter the OP runs it on. 
Could just be a situation just like when your car is making a noise that you know is a possible issue, bring it to the garage to get it checked and it doesn't do it! 

Anyway if he has any issues he is not for from me and I will help him sort it out, but I think the engine will be running for a long time to come.


----------

