# Batteries for motive power



## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

I just read a number of responses about the battery vs transformer thing and wow. I am new to this forum and not even sure where to begin or what section I sould be sending messages in. So I'm here and here I go. Iam going to do the battery thing. I've just started about two month ago with G scale and look forward to spring to building the "garden". My question is: what voltage and amphour battery should I be looking for? Is there a max volt and Ah rating that shouldn't be exceeded? Has any one used lap top li-ion batteries in their loco's? Some of those lap top batteries look like they would fit in the boiler of the steam engines. I would like to be able use one size, one brand, one voltage rated battery (or serires of batteries) for any and all the loco's I would use. Yes, I realize thats not likely to happen and should just figure that if its batteries then i will have mulitple styles, types, shapes, etc. along with as many chargers. Some addition facts (statments): I do want to put the batteries in the loco's not trailing cars, Ii have been looking at batteries on line for weeks primalry looking for size and shape to fit in loco's, then volt and amps, Im not hooked on any one type of battery either. I have found 12v SLA's that would fit in my U-boat (2 side by side in the long hood section) as well as a lap-top style li-ion that's almost the same size. I also intend to either invest in Airwire or Locolinc for the R/C part of this. Any thoughts and input would be appreciated.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lots of questions, I'll try to help here:


My question is: what voltage and amphour battery should I be looking for?

Well, it depends on the loco, the load, and how long you want to run. I'd make these decisions, if only rough guesses first. Figure out what length trains, what your grades will be and how long you want to run them. Also, how fast, like logging train slow, freight medium, or passenger fast, for example.


Is there a max volt and Ah rating that shouldn't be exceeded? 

Amp hours will probably self-limit because more is just larger. Voltage will again need to be considered along with how fast you want to run. Over 5 amp hours and over 24 volts would be sort of the "top" in my opinion.

Has any one used lap top li-ion batteries in their loco's? 

I have not specifically seen posts of people using these, but no reason they could not be used.

Some of those lap top batteries look like they would fit in the boiler of the steam engines. I would like to be able use one size, one brand, one voltage rated battery (or serires of batteries) for any and all the loco's I would use. Yes, I realize thats not likely to happen and should just figure that if its batteries then i will have mulitple styles, types, shapes, etc. along with as many chargers. 

You did a great job of answering your own question, and I agree with your answer! 


Some addition facts (statments): I do want to put the batteries in the loco's not trailing cars, Ii have been looking at batteries on line for weeks primalry looking for size and shape to fit in loco's, then volt and amps, Im not hooked on any one type of battery either. I have found 12v SLA's that would fit in my U-boat (2 side by side in the long hood section) as well as a lap-top style li-ion that's almost the same size. 

If you have large locos, almost any technology will "fit", but most locos will have challenges on space, and you might have to at least go to nicads, and possibly li-ion due to space considerations. I'm not a big fan of nickle metal hydrides, they are not much more "dense" than nicads, and my experience is that they do not last (total cycles) as well as nicads. If you are tight on space, then li-ion might be the only way to go.


I also intend to either invest in Airwire or Locolinc for the R/C part of this. Any thoughts and input would be appreciated.









If I was just starting out, I would probably look very closely at the choices. Locolinc has many users, but there are limitations in range and other areas. AirWire has more flexibility in motor controllers (QSI and AirWire) and much more flexibility in interfacing to sound systems.

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I had Locolinc in some engines. Many folks like this system. I have since converted entirely to AirWire. I have had much more luck with that system.


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## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

My first thought and ideas for the layout is logging with shays (1:20.3) and some maximum grades!!! I live on a hill. My second loop or track is planned for 60's & 70's freight (1:29) with diesels.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Shays will have little room for batteries. If you want sound too, you are definitely in li-ion land, and if not, I believe Dave Goodsen has squeezed nicads into it... Grades kind of are no nevermind to shays, since they are so geared down. 

Freight, how long trains? like 10 cars, or 30 cars? makes a big difference in load. 

I'm also assuming not using trailing battery cars, especially if you have a shay. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is one way of getting everything on board a Shay with sound:

http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=6087

Sierra is no longer available which means a couple fewer components.

The instructions I supply with the # BIK-BGL Shay installation kit are here:

http://www.rcs-rc.com/PDF/Accessories/Instructions/Install_kits/BIK_BGL.pdf

Although these instructions refer to my RCS R/C equipment they can be used with other brands of R/C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, I did my best on the battery questions, but you have more experience in battery choices, would you please comment? (Then my comments in the future will be of higher quality). 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jafaman,
Welcome to wonderful World of battery R/C.
The subject of batteries can be an emotive subject just like the battery - v - track power debate.
I have been working with battery R/C since 1985. In all that time I have used many types of batteries.
SLA, Ni-Cd, NiMh and NiMH hybrid Alkaline.

In the USA Ni-Cd and NiMh cells are available in a myriad of sizes and capacities.
As I live in Australia I can really only get AA size and SubC size Ni-Cd and NiMh batteries.
I much prefer Ni-Cd to NiMh for the reasons Greg has given above.
Ni-Cd are more forgiving when charging as they can be left on a standard trickle charge without damaging them. 
NiMh MUST be charged on a peak detection charger. They do not like being overcharged.
SubC cells can handle very high current draw, whereas AA size cells cannot handle much more than 1 amp without degrading the life span.
Where I have to use AA cells I only recommend Sanyo ENELOOP hybrid NiMh - Alkaline cells.
Only ever use Japanese or European made cells. The Chinese made ones are junk.

Always use a good quality charger. Chargers are made that can do both chemistries with a peak detect then top off on trickle.

Although SLA cells are the lowest cost I do not like them. Their shapes are not vey good for installation in smallish locos. Plus, unlike Ni-Cd and NiMh they drop voltage as they discharge.
I have no experience yet with Li-Ion or Li-Pol batteries. Too many horror stories for me. 
Others have had great success.

I hope that helps.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I have only ever used batteries for my locos. However unlike Tony, *I like SLA* -because they are heavy and simple. I do however build my own locos and I would be the first to admit that I do have to calculate Centres of Gravity and design spaces for my "bricks". I do build them "somewhat" larger than you would consider "G" scale...

As to using laptop batteries for your locos -I would advise against it.

Have a look at the Tamiya "Race Pack" batteries that are so beloved of my son and nephews. They are designed for rough handling and have robust connectors -something that a laptop battery is not!!!


regards

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*Welcome to the dark side*










I use batteries exclusively. My big locos have 3800mAh 19.2v batteries that look like IEDs simply 'cause I can get them for $32 each. My little loco has 12 Duracell AA batteries. I should put rechargeables in it as I use it more than I used to. The "IED" battery won't fit in it.


This is 2 RC Race car packs like Ralph suggests taped together.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have done several 3 truck Shays. There is no space problem in them. I also put AirWire, phoenix sound & batteries in a 2 truck shay. All were NiMH 4.5AH batteries.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What voltage did you make your pack Bill? 

Regards, Greg


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## trainbuffjr (Jan 11, 2008)

*Tom, do you have any pictures of how the batteries are installed in the Annie? I am trying to convert mine to battery but I keep having trouble when it comes to hooking up the batteries.*


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By trainbuffjr on 01/14/2009 7:49 AM
*Tom, do you have any pictures of how the batteries are installed in the Annie? I am trying to convert mine to battery but I keep having trouble when it comes to hooking up the batteries.*



Here is my Annie Tender with RCS, Battery, and Sierra installed...

2 7.2v cells as supplied by Dave Goodson (TOC)...Plenty of power and run-time for the kids and I 



http://www.lscdata.com/users/cale_nelson/Build Photos/Annie/batender.jpg

can't see photo, i still don't understand how to post photos over here.......argh

cale


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

14.4 volt in the 3-truck Shay
12v in the 2-truck Shay


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By c nelson on 01/14/2009 8:47 AM
Posted By trainbuffjr on 01/14/2009 7:49 AM
*Tom, do you have any pictures of how the batteries are installed in the Annie? I am trying to convert mine to battery but I keep having trouble when it comes to hooking up the batteries.*



Here is my Annie Tender with RCS, Battery, and Sierra installed...

2 7.2v cells as supplied by Dave Goodson (TOC)...Plenty of power and run-time for the kids and I 



http://www.lscdata.com/users/cale_nelson/Build Photos/Annie/batender.jpg

can't see photo, i still don't understand how to post photos over here.......argh

cal

Just right clik your computer hold down drag over link turn blue hit control c then go up in browser erase that link, and then hit control v it will place link in browser and then show picture. Works on anything that isn't clickable and won't download or active link. The Regal


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

As far as voltage and current ratings for your batteries go ... I always recommend you first measure your track voltage prior to conversion. Run the train at the speed you like with the load you like, and measure the track voltage. Add at least two volts and that will be your minimum battery voltage requirement. 14.4V for most steam locos usually works, 12V or even less for some small critters, and up to 24V for some diesels. But measure it and know for sure. Having established the voltage, you know how many cells you need. Now use the largest mah (milli-amp-hour) rating you can fit in the space available. More mah, more run time. You will want at least 2000 mah in most cases, 4000 for larger locos. Run times of 2-5 hours can easily be obtained. I have always used NiMh, but am now switching over to Lithium-Ion.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Posted By trainbuffjr on 01/14/2009 7:49 AM


*Tom, do you have any pictures of how the batteries are installed in the Annie? I am trying to convert mine to battery but I keep having trouble when it comes to hooking up the batteries.*


I built a styrene platform, above the speaker and around the Bachmann sound board, for the battery packs in my Annie.

 

 

The battery packs were homemade using battery holder and snap connectors. Mine are 9.6 volt (8 cell) NiMH packs because that is what I used in everything else at the time, but 7.2 volt (6 cell) Ni-Cad packs would work in an Annie. Although I used a 75 MHz, an RCS receiver would work as well.

In you want to some more ideas and photos of the installation, there is an article on our club web site. Click on the Battery Powered and Radio Controlled Annie link to view it.
http://ovgrs.editme.com/Annie


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

For my Annie: 

I pulled out bachman's board and speaker. The trackside TE is screwed to the bottom. 










You see there are 2 battery holders. One holds 8, and one holds 4. That's just 'cause I had them in my junk box. Don't use ray-o-vacs like in the photo. Duracell coppertops last longer and I've twice had rayovac batteries leak. 

For sound, I have the Small Scale Railways card double sided taped to the back of the tender. 










And the optical pickup is under the tender. 










It had trouble working in sunlight, so I built a little box to shade it. 

Then I added an ecubed antenna


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 01/14/2009 9:39 AM


Just right clik your computer hold down drag over link turn blue hit control c then go up in browser erase that link, and then hit control v it will place link in browser and then show picture. Works on anything that isn't clickable and won't download or active link. The Regal

I get that, but I can't get my photos to show up over here in a post?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Del, what charger do you use for your li-ion? 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

A charger specific for the 14.8V battery pack I purchased from All-Battery.com. Battery Pack 

So far I really like it. Very simple. No feedback other than an LED, but it works, and it is quick. Charger


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Cal, I couldn't get it to post using the [image] tags, but it did work with the "Insert Image" icon.

After inserting the link in the URL box, I have to tab down to see the "insert" box.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok..........I need help.

I have always planned on following Paul's instruction from
Battery Power and Radio Control - 40 Foot Boxcar 

http://ovgrs.editme.com/PowerBoxcar
I have a GP-38 USAT that will be my 1st battery conversion engine. I picked up a 27mhz TE for $150 at my last train show.
My goal is to have this up and running by our club's winter meet in February!

I am about to order the MU plugs, switch and antenna etc. But I am stumped on battery selection. The battery and charger Del just posted seems like an economical way to go for sure! But since I have easy access to gel-cell motorcycle batteries by Yuasa etc. I am wondering if anyone has used these before? They are similar to the 3 6 volt ones that Arist sells.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

As to using SLA gell cells then read my previous entry above, although mine are sourced from Maplins - I doubt they vary much from the Yuasa SLA that you are examining. Mine are 4.5Ah and 6Volt and cost £4.99p


viz: http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/david3.jpg


regards

ralph


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

try again 










my annie tender with RCS, Soundtraxx, 14.4v


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

well for whatever reason it worked this time...weird!thanks Paul


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 01/15/2009 12:17 PM
ok..........I need help.

I have always planned on following Paul's instruction from http://ovgrs.editme.com/PowerBoxcar

I have a GP-38 USAT that will be my 1st battery conversion engine. I picked up a 27mhz TE for $150 at my last train show. My goal is to have this up and running by our club's winter meet in February!

I am about to order the MU plugs, switch and antenna etc. But I am stumped on battery selection. The battery and charger Del just posted seems like an economical way to go for sure! But since I have easy access to gel-cell motorcycle batteries by Yuasa etc. I am wondering if anyone has used these before? They are similar to the 3 6 volt ones that Arist sells.



In my 40 foot power boxcar article, I used one lithium-ion battery pack to keep the wiring as simple as possible. If you use two or more battery packs the wiring requirements for charging will change. As an example, here is the wiring circuit for two battery packs.


The circuit was originally designed more than a decade ago. Our club members used it to connect a 6-volt and a 12-volt, GEL CELL BATTERY in series to provide 18 volts of power for the original Aristo-Craft Train Engineer. With a flick of a double pole double throw switch, the batteries could be disconnected from the receiver and connected to independent charging jacks.


The illustration below shows the circuit in charge mode. The highlighted part of the circuit shows two batteries being charged through separate charging plugs. This allows two similar batteries of different voltages to be charged independently.


The same circuit can be used to charge and link two identical batteries or battery packs allowing a range from 12 to 24 volts. Members of our Garden Railway Club have run Ni-Cad and Ni-MH battery packs in this manner.
 
When the switch is thrown in the opposite direction, the charging plugs are isolated and the receiver is brought on line. Although a little more difficult to follow, the illustration below shows the receiver linked in series with both batteries.

 
If you are using three, 6-volt gel cell batteries; you might be able to wired the in series and charge them with a suitable 18 volt charger. Personally I like to charge and check by battery packs individually, as it much easier to find a failing cell.

Aristo-Craft style MU plugs can be used in place of charging jacks. They are easy to install by drilling a small hole and will not short out when plugged in. They are available from ALL Electronics under part number CON-240.

My 40 foot power boxcar article also requires some updating, as it mentions cutting the wings off the charging plug and using hot glue to fasten it to the frame.










The updated method is to drill a 7/16ths hole in the frame. The plug wires are dropped through the hole, the wings of the charging plug are spread out, and then the base is wiggled through the hole. The base is held with a #10 stud, spade terminal which is secured with hot glue as shown.










While the Azarr 27 MHz antenna provided 135 feet of range in my Evan power car, it did not work well in my 40 foot boxcar. I have no idea why not as both the cars are similar. I guess that is why R/C is sometimes referred to as a Black Art.

You might want to consider wrapping the TE’s wire antenna around a strip of cardboard so it mounting wide and close to the roof. The cardboard strip could be folded to mount to the floor rather than the roof, so the car body could be removed or installed easily. Using hot glue to fasten the antenna to the roof is messy and does not eliminate the possibility of the slack required folding back over itself or touching other components when the car body is installed.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, a comment. I see a slide switch for your charging switch. Since this is high current, and slide switches are not normally sealed, have you had any problems with poor contact? (dirt, moisture, etc) There's a piece of well-known R/C hardware where the slide switches are known for problems. Many people prefer sealed toggles, which are only a couple of bucks. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

The slide switch is under the switch cover of my GP-40 along with all the other slide switches for power, lights and motor. It has been mounted in place of the smoke unit which has been unplugged and removed.










As it is attached to one lithium-ion battery pack that has a maximum current of 2 amps, so I don’t anticipate a problem. If a DPDT toggle switch would have fit, I probably would have used one as they are easier and neater to install. I have drawer full of them from my dismantle On30 railway.

My locomotives are not left or stored outside, so dirt and moisture are not a problem they have to face.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Back to this issue please? I am finally ready to order this battery and some MU plugs from the same place if they have them. 
http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion18650148v2200mahrechargeablebatterypackwithpcbprotection.aspx 
I am making first battery conversion on my USAT GP-38-2 (BNSF) and need some help please!? I need to complete this by the 14th for the Clubs winter meet. One week shipping from Cali on the battery so I'm cutting it close. 
I have a new 27 MHz TE in the box. I want to convert the engine according to Paul's instructions but would like to see if this battery and the receiver would fit in the engine????????? Anyone know? HELP!


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Unfortunately I can't help you regarding what will fit in the GP38-2. I too converted a BNSF GP38-2, but I use a trailing car. I actually converted this particular locomotive without ever going into the engine proper. I pulled the track input leads from the truck, soldered wires to those leads and just hot glued the wires back to a mu connector on the rear of the engine. Then after cutting the "bearing track input leads" in the trucks, and connecting my trailing battery/sound/receiver(27MHz) car to the locomotive I was off and running!

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you will not be able to fit a trackside TE in the shell and batteries.

oops, paul responded below while I was typing! 


Regards, Greg


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

The GP38-2 is a good sized diesel, but I don’t think the 27 MHz trackside receiver will fit on-board even if you were to move or remove components. There are also two smoke units in the top of the shell.

 

I wanted to run a pair of GP-9s using one as a power car. Even though the GP-9 was gutted, the 27 MHz circuit board was just too wide to fit without hacking the locomotive. Fortunately I will now be able to install a 2.4 GHz Train Engineer receiver in each locomotive and run them individually or in a consist.

Since you are short of time, I would install an MU PLUG on the back of the GP-38 and build a simple POWER CAR following the instructions on our club web site.









The power car will allow you to battery power and radio control any other locomotive equipped with an MU plug. Most Aristo-Craft locomotives already have MU plugs, and adding one to any other USA Trains diesel is similar to the GP38-2.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

What is the amp hour rating on this? = How long does it last? 

The cheaper version ($37) I found is only 14.8volts and 2200 mAh - Will it be enough? It's $73 for the 4400 mAh version at only 14.8 volts.... 

What battery do I need?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It should say "2 amp hour" not "2 amp", but that's how it's labelled. Power used is a combination of volts and amps. 

14.8 volts will run pretty slow on your USAT loco, so it depends on how fast you want. 

More amp hours is longer running time, not more speed. 

What do you need? Speed, running time, small size, low cost? Pick any 3 (NOT 4!!). 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Can't have the whole cake? lol 

I can't imagine ever running it at full throttle unless you have to in order to pull a long train (no more than 6-10 cars). Just not too realistic. 
Therefore, 
#1 Running Time 
#2 Low Cost 
#3 Fast charging and protection 
#4 small size for on board mounting would be nice but a battery car makes more sense when I am just beginning the R/C phase of things. 

Thank you for all your help! Why am I making this more difficult than it should be? I have the TE and now need a battery and charger.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

you left out speed, which is important because it is related to the voltage of the pack you need. 

Running time is get the largest amp hour , but since cost is #2, then sealed lead acid batteries will do the best. 

You can get fast chargers for anything, although faster charging wears out batteries sooner. 

You cannot get #4, because it is at odds with higher priorities. 

So, a battery car, get two 12 volt sealed lead acid batteries (gel cells), hook them in series to get 24v. 

Hook up a circuit that allows you to split them into 12v for charging. Get a "smart" car battery charger from Pep Boys, and you are golden. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Greg, 

I have access to any Yuasa brand (Motorcycle industry) maintanence free batteries at 12v each... Aren't they going to be rather heavy though!?!? 

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/batteries.asp


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I have full access to these batteries at wholesale pricing if not free... Size would be the 1st concern I would think... 

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/2008yuaapp.pdf


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

As Greg has pointing out it is really hard to get it all, there are compromises with every battery type.

I use the Aristo-Craft lithium-ion battery to run 4-axle diesels with small trains of 6 to 8 cars. In our Saturday morning operations they last at least two hours. But we do not run continuously because there are many other trains on the railway. A lot of time is spent switching and some time is spent in a siding waiting for clearance.

I like lithium-ion packs over other batteries I have tried (Ni-Cad and NiMH) because I intend to move them all on-board in time. They are small enough to fit in most fuel tanks, light, and charge in 4 hours. They are the most expensive of the battery packs however.

 

The next two types, Ni-Cad and NiMH, are less expensive and reasonably light. But it usually takes two packs (18 volts) to run a diesel at a reasonable speed, which makes it harder to mount on-board. Each of the two NiMH packs originally used in my NW-2 are the same size as one lithium-ion pack. They also take twice as long to charge, even though I had a charger for each pack. Two NiMH packs and two chargers would be about half the cost of two lithium-ion packs and chargers however.

Gel cells are large and heavy, but they do get long run times. They also take about 10 hours to charge properly. They are inexpensive, perhaps free in your case. You would never find room for them on-board a locomotive, and it might be a squeeze to put two in a box car. Aristo-Craft box cars are 3 1/2 inches between the mounting posts. The plastic journals bushings should also be replaced with ball bearings to carry the weight.

How do you run your trains? If you do a lot of switching, the battery packs last longer because you are usually running at slow speeds. If you are continuously running at medium speed, then the run times would be shortened.

Do you run smoke? That cuts into run time considerably. A smoke unit can draw as much as half an amp, and there are two of them in a GP38-2.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

each Yuasa YTX4LBS = Maintenence Free 
12volt 
3 AH 
4 1/2" long 
2 13/16" wide 
3 3/8" high 
2.9 lbs. w/o acid 

Would 2 of these work? I would probably have an unlimited warranty as long as I kept a job in the industry. Also, the standard Yumicron type has 4 AH but allot less Cold Cranking Amps, not spill proof and is MUCH cheaper. How would CCA come into play on a train? I mean, it definately may in Canada! lol 

I agree on the ball bearing wheel sets, most I've seen are for Aristo cars which I have none of. All LGB here for now, where do I get ball bearing wheels for these and would the trucks need modified any?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

sealed lead acid (gel cells) are not the same as lead acid with liquid acid. Reading between the lines, if you have a weight w/o acid, that means you have to add acid. Even though they are "maintenance free" is the "sealing" just rubber plugs? I would not recommend anything but a true gel cell, i.e. the electrolyte is gelled. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

I totally agree with Greg on the use of gel cells rather than the liquid lead acid batteries. Most batteries of the liquid acid type have a breather hose to expel gas while charging. If the car were to derail and tip, the acid may leak out through the hose.

Six pounds of batteries would quickly wear plastic wheel bushings down in a hurry. The springs on any Aristo-Craft car would flatten, resulting in rigid trucks and misaligned couplers. That and the additional weight might result in more derailments, especially backing up with truck mounted couplers.

Aristo-Craft sell ball bearing races for their forty-foot cars. The plastic bushings can be removed with a drywall screw and the bearings popped in.

Gel cell batteries similar to what you have listed would have to be placed at each end of the car to keep the weight over the trucks. The two of them would use up 9 inches of space in a boxcar, leaving 7 1/2 inches by the doors for the TE. A double door boxcar would probably allow you access to the switches on both ends of the TE.

Cold Cranking Amps are a concern here for the batteries in our vehicles during the winter months, but so in our trains. Our power cars and locomotives are safe and warm inside. We usually stop running in October, as Saturday mornings get pretty frosty towards the end of the month most years. This past year it snowed before Halloween. Here is what our club railway looks like most of the winter.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Large and heavy batteries seems to come up often. But we don't run girly-man- engines. whats two 20 pd engines with a 3 pd battery in a car with 50 other 4 pd cars?? nothing. 

Over thinking to much can hurt. 

If your going to start thinking in weight. many battery cars weight the same as a USAT tank car 6.5 pds. Aristo 100 ton hoppers with steel wheels is around 4 pds per
all my 3 axle locos have their max of weights in them. nothing stops them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the only concern is to put ball bearings on the trucks. Actually sleeve bearings are probably ok with good maintenance/lubrication, but I'd go ball bearings in any car where the weight was significantly increased. Most average rolling stock (freight) is 4-5 pounds, so you could double the weight easily. 

But, other than that, a 10 pound car is not a big deal, I agree. 

Regards, Greg


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## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

Paul and All, I found a couple of sources for batteries I've not seen anyone mention for Li-po battereis. Aslo found a good inexpensive source for Ni-MH AA's if anyone uses that size. The Li-po's I found to fit in An Aristro U25-B is a 18.5V 3700mAh all in one wrapper, and seems to be a good price for the product. These are of course R/C car and truck batteries, should be plenty heavy duty to endure a train ride. There are lots of congifurations and sizes, check out the site address below.

Li-Po's
Ni-http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7652&Product_Name=Rhino_3700mAh_5S1P_20C_Lipoly_Pack


I'm sorry thought i had the AA battery web site here at home, must be at work, I'll get it this weekend and pass it on.

Dale


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

These are the exact same as a "gel" cel battery. The plates absorb the acid, which turn to a "gel" in the process so that there is NOTHING to spill if it's busted open or cracked in any way. After filling with supplied bottle of acid, it is sealed with a plastic strip, permanantly. Yuasa is the largest battery mfg in the World and produce just about all others including Interstate both here in the states and from Taiwan. 
My cost is $28 each. 
Now... How/where do I get ball bearing wheels for my LGB boxcar?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dale, it's taken three pages to narrow down the types of batteries based on priorities... 

Can't have the whole cake? lol 

I can't imagine ever running it at full throttle unless you have to in order to pull a long train (no more than 6-10 cars). Just not too realistic. 
Therefore, 
#1 Running Time 
#2 Low Cost 
#3 Fast charging and protection 
#4 small size for on board mounting would be nice but a battery car makes more sense when I am just beginning the R/C phase of things. 

Thank you for all your help! Why am I making this more difficult than it should be? I have the TE and now need a battery and charger. 



#2 is low cost, so lithium batteries of any type will blow that one... 

I know everyone wants to help, but again, it's taken 3 pages to help the originator of the thread narrow down the choices.


I recently got a "maintenance free" battery that you pour acid in and it is then sealed with rubber plugs... it is supposed to go to gel... but until that top is hermetically sealed, not just a strip of rubber plugs, I'm still skeptical. But, I see that it is not "liquid" ... I just bought one, and thought it was weird that the case was not translucent to be able to see liquid level, now I know...


Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

The USA engines run very nicely with 14.4 volt batteries. A reasonable speed would have you running at 1/3 throttle with a 14.4 volt battery and an AirWire receiver. I can't speak for other radio brands.

I use NiMH batteries in all of my installs. The minimum capacity that I put in an engine is 4 amp/hours. In some cases, I use 9 or 10 amp/hours. It allows long operating times without worrying about charging. I can put a receiver, sound card, 9 A/H batteries and a speaker in a GP-9. The GP-38 proved to be one of the easiest battery installs that I have done. There is lots of room in that engine.


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## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

Greg, I don't want to come across as being pissy about jumping on someone trying to help but go look who started this thread. 
At some point an individule will pull the trigger on what type of battery they may want to use and while is is important to consider all thats been spoken (written) it could be something as simple as simplicity of use or install or cost vs value to that individual on the final choice. My thread was simply a source for two types of batteries that maybe others where considering using. If I've miss unerstood what you said then I apologize in advance. 

Dale


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was just trying to be sensitive to your priorities in an attempt to narrow down what you want. 

Li-ion is definitely the highest cost. They are the smallest and lightest. 

You stated low cost was a high priority, so after all the work to help narrow the choices to your priorities, li-ion does not seem to meet them. 

That's all. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. if it was me, I don't like trailing cars, would want batteries inside the locos, and I would be running li-ion, but my priorites are different.


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

* I have a 5000 mAh -24v battery in my Santafe B-unit. It will run all twelve motors, 4 smoke units, 3 sound systems and pulling 13 aluminum cars for am hour non stop at full speed. I don't usually don't run the smoke units , or run top speed when I use the battery, but that is what we did to test it right after it was made to see what it would do under a full load. It does weigh almost as much as the weights in the two A-units, so I didn't put any weights in the 
b-unit. Thanks Rex*


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## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

I don't like the idea of trailing cars either. Right now I will probably go with Li-po as the costs in the final analysis is only about 30 bucks more for each loco over Ni-MH's The chargers seem to be the same costs for either and I like the idea of one pack vervses multiples all wired and taped in series and parallel and so on. 


Dale


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## jafaman (Jan 13, 2009)

Rex, what type of batteries are they??? 


Dale


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Here is a link to a company that sells them. I am thinking of the 7000mAh setup. They both come with the charger.* 
Ni-Cd Packs 2.4-24V - 12V - 24V Packs - NiCd Battery Pack 24V 5000 mAh (20xD) + Smart Fast Charger (1.5A) - NCP-24V4Ah-24VSMC


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I understand not liking trailing car, but with ones running habits , I and many others never run just a an engine. I pull long trains with many locos so thats the cheapest way. 
Even Rex 's set up the units need to stay together or maybe brake off to AB. with a trailing " car" or baggage car like I run I can use just one loco or AB or ABA does not matter. givers more freedom. I can also use any of my other engines to pull the same cosist. 
Your choices need to be made based on your needs , running habits , and afforability. Not what is best for me or others.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

[No message]


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Since I'm a steam nut, the tender is the obvious choice for the battery car


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I usually put the batteries, radio, speaker and sound card in the tender.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 02/01/2009 2:37 PM
Since I'm a steam nut, the tender is the obvious choice for the battery car " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wink.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


Actually, the tender is too full of fuel and water for the batterys, but then a steam nut doesn't need the sound card or speaker, and the R/C battery is usually so small that it can lay just under the fake coal load with the receiver.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Good point! I think from a sparky's point-of-view


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes but with all of those batteries, R/C & sound system, we don't have to wait for the water to boil and mess with that funny oil and other junk. Also, the engine sounds more like a real steamer instead of going tink, tink, tink.


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Great thread


Dave


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