# How Model Trains are Made



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

We're in Phoenix for an early Christmas with family..... Presents of the hour...... 

Thomas stuff for the Grandson










and the Aristo-Craft Production.... How Model Trains Are Made for the other train nut...... The DVD is quite well done, very informative and fun to watch.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

poor kid ,make him dress up like that.... where is Stans hat and hanky??? 
Good DVD. must have for a club library.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

At least it's not a pink bunny suit


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Torby 

It sounds like you have first hand experince with Pink Bunny suits. 

How about sharing the pics?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Kids love to see how things are made. I know I did, now I have a job where I get to see how things are made! 

I think I will get a copy of that movie for my (self) kids. They too love seeing how things are made. They ask me to play this for them from time to time:


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Wonderful, Garrett.... A very detailed, scientific account of the making of hot dogs....


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 12/24/2008 8:56 AM
Wonderful, Garrett.... A very detailed, scientific account of the making of hot dogs....










Better than how they made them when I was a kid I bet









How long is the Aristo movie, and where can one buy it?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I too received the Aritocraft movie for Xmas. It's pretty good and the scenes in the Sanda Kan factory are illuminating. Talk about manual labor...woof. I had always wondered about several of the manufactureing processes and the movie explains them well. Data and emblems on cars and engines are pad printed...in ink...not paint. That explains why removing the data and emblems is different that removing paint. It's INK...not paint. The masking process is shown for car painting...and it is NOTHING at all like I thought it would be. In fact, I've never seen the masking processing shown used anywhere else. 


My other surprises were the role that Aristocraft plays versus the role of Sanda Kan. Somehow, I thought Aristo was more involved in the actual design of the their products...but they're definitely much more into the business end. The products are technically designed, developed, manufactured, and packaged by Sanda Kan. I wished they'd spent more time on how the molds were made...they went through it very briefly...and the mold making process that makes the copper masters was not understood by me at all...then again, I'm into the "How It's Made" mentality of explanation...long and involved with lots of video.

This is a good $20 gift to any garden railroader. Get them from the Aristo web site. It's 35 minutes long.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 12/24/2008 10:52 AM
I wished they'd spent more time on how the molds were made...they went through it very briefly...and the mold making process that makes the copper masters was not understood by me at all...then again, I'm into the "How It's Made" mentality of explanation...long and involved with lots of video.




True, but this is unfortunately the nature of things. 

Want to see how beer is made in the US and they take you to a brewery behdind glass for 15 min. 

A teacher of mine who was a schoolboy in Germany in the 1930's got a tour with his school (part of "Heimatkunde" or homeland studies if memory serves), started with the spring where the water came from and ended with the trucking company that shipped it, and E-V-E-R-Y tedious step in between!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not seen the edited version but the original footage did not overly impress me. They would have had to do a major rework which needed additional film footage to make it worth wild. The oldest person in the clips was a supervisor. So now you know all these young folks are putting together your trains and what was interesting these folks never did the same job day to day.Then you wounder why locos got mis wired. Later RJD


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Wet blanket


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

So would it to safe to say that Aristo is just an importer of trains and not a monufacturer??


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that would not be accurate Chuck. They are far more involved than just importing someone else's product. My impression, from the discussions by Lewis & Co. on the Aristo forum, is that Aristo-craft drives the product conception, design research, and marketing. I have not yet seen the video, but what Mike says does not square with what has been written by Lewis Polk and other company officials on their forum. I think maybe the technical design - what is required to actually manufacture the product - is probably left up to the engineers at the factory, but the initial model concepts and prototype specs are gathered and researched by Aristo people. I think Aristo decides what new models they think will sell well - and then proposes that along with the initial specs and photos etc. to the design and mfg engineers, and they get a feasability estimate along with final cost per unit before a decision is made. Don't forget that packaging, literature, and all the service and support info has to be created as well. 

Ever heard of Cisco - the internet/network hardware company? (you may have one of their home products - Linksys). They once mfd everything but today they outsource almost everything. Their revised business model is famous and is studied by many business majors in college who are looking at supply chain management concepts. 
(ref. http://www.supplychainbrain.com/archives/5.00.cisco.htm?adcode=75)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny how the favoured business model fluctuates between all outside suppiers and total vertical integration. Years ago it was Commodore Business Machines that was lauded for owning everything from raw material mining to parts manufacturing to assembly of computers to distribution to retail stores... that was why they could sell computers so cheap.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 12/24/2008 5:39 PM
Funny how the favoured business model fluctuates between all outside suppiers and total vertical integration. Years ago it was Commodore Business Machines that was lauded for owning everything from raw material mining to parts manufacturing to assembly of computers to distribution to retail stores... that was why they could sell computers so cheap.

The internet changed everything and made global supply chain management - once a logistical nightmare - very manageable, and takes full advantage of cheaper labor markets. Total vertical integration is now seen mostly as burdensome, being complex to manage and difficult/slow/costly to change in reaction to real or anticipated market changes, and mostly unnecessary.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Al McEvoy on 12/24/2008 5:30 PM
but what Mike says does not square with what has been written by Lewis Polk and other company officials on their forum.







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I wasn't trying to knock Aristo...as it seems my comments were taken. Aristo does the project development....PROJECT...and managment. Aristocraft measures the real engine if possible and photograph it...and make 2D drawings of the model they want produced. They document the curves of the real item...as those are difficult to show in a 2D drawing they explain. The movie shows John Mikesh on an engine doing that. If I understand their organization as explained briefly in the video, the project development is John Mikesh's job. They have other division managers for service and sales...and all three plus Lewis are shown participating in the business end of the project. 

For the Project part...that would be drawings and specifications that (I think) are provided to Sanda Kan...Aristo produces them I think...least that's my take on what I saw. For the service division of Aristo, it means reviewing the designs to ensure whatever is built is repairable...and reliable. They show Navin doing this in one part. Throught the whole video Mr. Polk, head of sales, is visible with Lewis...clearly working the classical business efforts....sales, marketing, packaging, distribution, oversight, etc. That's their team.

As I saw the video, the engineering to make a PRODUCT is done by Sanda Kan. Sanda Kan does the 3D CAD so that the parts together and that CAM processes can be used. They design the subassemblies. They do the electronics design. They sub out the PC board fabrication the movie said...but they do the stuffing and soldering and wiring of the boards...and engines and cars. They even do the packaging design...and interestingly have a lab that is designed to test the product packaging to ensure the product is well protected.

This is NOT to say that Aristocraft is not involved all the way along. Whatever product is being made...it's still one of their projects...and what I saw was classical project management by Aristocraft. So...it's incorrect to say they are just a distributor of someone else's product...this is THEIR product...and that came through loud and clear.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 12/24/2008 6:28 PM
I wasn't trying to knock Aristo...as it seems my comments were taken. 

Nahhh....no knock suspected, Mr. Mike. Just thought at first maybe your interpretation was a bit incomplete...but... your explanation here supports what I have inferred from their forum discussions. Thanks for the clarification (good explanation of the process by the way). I have to get this video...forgot to order it when they announced it a few weeks back. Aarrgghhh!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with how Mike explained (and re-explained) it. Aristo is very involved in the prototypical look and accuracy, especially of the "decoration" (that's what we call the painting and road name etc.). 

And I think, especially lately, they do a fine job. 

But the internal engineering and the mechanical design is done by Sanda Kan. The principal design of some of the major items has been done my Mr. Song in the US, but the implementation and execution of the design is done by Sanda Kan. 

And Tom Ruby: not only is name calling not necessary, but YOU are one of the first people to bring to light the miswiring of Aristo products, the wiring in the tenders of EVERY Aristo steam locomotive!!! 

Stick to the facts, there's plenty of data available to be objective and factual. (And the facts are that Aristo locomotives have more wiring problems than USAT or Bachmann, and they keep doing it). 

Buy a steam loco today and I'll prove it to you. 

By the way, in the video, do they still state that when they make a run of 1000 locos, they make ONE extra for parts? That was in the raw footage they showed the the public already. 


Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

So would it to safe to say that Aristo is just an importer of trains and not a monufacturer?? 



Not when they do the design, engineering, marketing and own the molds.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 12/24/2008 9:36 PM
(SNIP)
And Tom Ruby: not only is name calling not necessary, but YOU are one of the first people to bring to light the miswiring of Aristo products, the wiring in the tenders of EVERY Aristo steam locomotive!!! 
Stick to the facts, there's plenty of data available to be objective and factual. (And the facts are that Aristo locomotives have more wiring problems than USAT or Bachmann, and they keep doing it). 

Greg - I obviously missed something. To what post are you referring here?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, was trying to be economical. In another thread, Tom called R.J. a "wet blanket" because he (in my interpretation) did not have a glowing response, but did mention miswiring of locos. I thought it was funny because Tom was the first person to really discover and document a wiring flaw in Aristo steamers that continues to this day. 

So, I combined the response to both threads in one. 

I guess I had too much eggnog! 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the things AC does not do is actually watch when a new product is made to make sure its done right. They have there samples to look at but if they do not catch a problems it goes assembled as is. If I was AC I'd have someone there to over see my bucks that I'm spending to produce a quality product.

BTW Tom wake up. Your a day late and a dollar short as usual Later RJD


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, I was going by this statement above..

"The products are technically designed, developed, manufactured, and packaged by Sanda Kan."

Two different takes on what Aristo actually does???


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With a staff of 7 people, 4 or 5 in customer service, (Navin, Gene, George, and the 2 ladies that do shipping and otherwise) it's pretty clear that Aristo does not have the engineering staff itself. The video shows a room full of Sanda Kan engineers in China. 

Loyalty is one thing, but tom has to stop drinking the red kool-aide. It's clear from all the stuff posted by Aristo employees on the Aristo site who does the engineering. Mr. Song, stateside has invented and developed some of the ideas, but all development (realization of the design) and manufacturing and packaging are done in China, not at Aristo. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep your right there Greg and all the folks they hire are fresh out of collage and if you notice, here again they are young. China folks do not hire or keep old folks. Later RJD


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## Steven Gugel (Jan 9, 2008)

Sorry, but Greg is not right. Just because their engineering staff do not work on site in beautiful downtown Irvington, New Jersey does not mean they do not have designers, engineers, artists, and others that work from their homes, or elsewhere in the U.S. of A. Yes, they have the Chinese engineers in China working on projects, but not all phases of all projects. This knowledge is first hand, not an assumption, as I am one of the proud people who do design and development work for them.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep. I can vouch for Steve (not that he needs it!). I have been to his house and seen his operation. Not to mention his great backyard layout/testing grounds and excellent line of large scale bridge systems he designed and has mfrd (another good example of subcontracting/outsourcing).

Howdy Steve...from the other large scale guy in Sykesville!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess they do not want to acknowledge the good old US of aA folks for their work. Video does not mention this. Later RJD


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## Steven Gugel (Jan 9, 2008)

I did get a credit at the bottom of the Dash-9 drawings near the beginning of the video, and the girl on the roof of the GG-1 is Michelle, who worked for and put up with me for many, many years before needing a gig with benefits for the new bambino. She is still my booth bunny at the ECLSTS each year in York. The angry look like she's going to pounce on or throw something at me is because I kept telling her to take another step back when I was taking the photo. For those of you who haven't been on the roof of a GG-1...IT'S VERY FAR DOWN TO THE CEMENT FLOOR!

Hi AL.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So Steven, you are NOT an employee, right, but you are a consultant, right? Lewis has stated several times (and I can point you to HIS posts on HIS forum) that there are 7 employees of Aristo. 

So someone is not quite right. Now, the word "staff" means employee. I can accept that Lewis has consultants, but the point here is that the engineering is in China, in Sanda Kan, not just a few people here and there, NOT full time. 

If you look at the video, and listen to Lewis, you hear about all the work it takes to design a loco. There is no contingent of engineers here that I have heard or seen. Notice I did say earlier that the decoration is where Aristo is very involved. 

Just for the record, what have you designed for Aristo Steven? Any locomotive, motors, drive systems, electronics? 

I can accept that there are some consultants, paid and unpaid, that do things for Aristo, but the BULK of the engineering and development is done in China BY LEWIS'S OWN STATEMENTS. I have done things for Aristo myself. 

I'm happy to be shown otherwise, but facts please, or an official Aristo announcement that there are more staff than the 7 he has mentioned several times. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Often, the makers (at least in the HO world) keep their consultants under wraps. I know three consultants myself only because they are friends. You are not going to find their name in print. 

Why? Less leaks......


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## Steven Gugel (Jan 9, 2008)

Why the caps Greg? Here's a quick Wikipedia definition of the word staff: Staff, a set of people, such as the employees or volunteers, within an organization. When I consider working 40+ hours a week for weeks or months at a time for 18 or 20 years now for any one manufacturer (Aristo-Craft is just one of several major model train manufacturer clients of mine) I believe anyone would agree that I'm one of their staff - even if it is consulting. Just for the record? - as if I'm in some sort of court room here...take a deep breath and relax. I've designed everything from track to locomotives and I am in this hobby business (or is it a business hobby?) because I love trains. I am lucky and blessed enough to be able to support my family doing what I love doing most - playing with trains.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are indeed luck Steven, and I commend you on working on what you love. 

Not a court, just that the contention was about who does the engineering, development, design, etc. of Aristo products. 

Research on prototypes: here in the US, Aristo employees and consultants and volunteers. 
Design of new major mechanical modules: (like the prime mover): we suspect mr song, but need more info 
Design of how a locomotive is built/put together: Sanda Kan in China, never in the US as far as I can tell 
Decoration: Here in the us, by an Aristo employee and help by consultants and or volunteers. 
Design of new electronics, certainly not here, and it seems not in Sanda Kan, witness this new system. 
Design of new motors, certainly not here. 
Mold making, not here, Sanda Kan for sure. 

So engineering wise, I would say that all design is not done here, except that it seems that Mr. Song, and before him Mr. Kim (REA days) did some of the fundamental designs. 

With such a small company (7 employees per Lewis) and with the incontrovertible evidence of a room full of engineers and cad/cam systems in Lewis' videos, and the ongoing situation that even parts diagrams have to be re-drawn here in the US (because the original stuff is all in China), no exploded diagrams of many locos, not to mention part numbers, I have to continue to agree that the Aristo products are designed in China, with the exception of the "decoration" and physical appearance which is done here (and a great job is done). 

That's the only point, people taking exception to the fact that Aristo outsources most of the design, engineering, and ALL of the manufacturing and packaging. 

Why is this such a big deal? On the Aristo forum you are not allowed to say anything "negative" and the interpretation of "negative" is no consensus, it's the moderators. 

How about we just speak the truth? If 90% of the work is done in China, why are people fighting this, and trying to pull out an exception here or there to prove otherwise? 

I don't take it as negative. I take mistruths as negative. 

This is not personal, it's a reaction to the "my favorite company can do no wrong" attitude expressed in several places in the thread, and "greg is not right" because Aristo has US consultants. 

Again, a few exceptions don't move the engineering from China to the USA. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

See, Greg and RJ are loyal ...any way, Greg do you KNOW how many of my customers SAY they build their own houses?? When in fact we just get them to pick the colors and design and styles. "We built " our house. " Is not a lie, its a view point of over seeing and control of. Matter of fact they don't even pay us, the bank pays us , but they say we hired Marty. 

You just like to stir up things. 
YOU KNOW IF ANY ONE CAME TO MY OPEN HOUSE AND STARTED THIS ,YOU WOULD BE ASKED TO LEAVE. IT JUST KILLS THE MOOD OF THE HOBBY.

PS I like kidding around ;and batt vs track power etc . but sometimes this bullshit gets old and I am out in the shop tring to enjoy my day off and I'm frustrated with the on going (we have to share the other side crap.) 
I keep qiuet many times just to NOT let New folks see the CRAPPY SIDE OF g GAUGE CHURCH. 
MANY OF THE "STAFF" AT ARISTO HAS BECOME MY FRIENDS. 
LEWIS IS FAR FROM PERFECT BUT HE IS MY FRIEND.

its just not worth my time.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, understand Marty, very similar. The point here is not a putdown to Aristo, just acknowledging that Marty built their trains for them! 

In the case of a house, everyone knows the owner did not swing a hammer! 

It's not stirring things up, it's silly stuff like flying in the face of facts that Lewis himself presented. 

To use your example, you built the house, but the owner says he built it because he picked the styles and colors, your analogy is perfect Marty. Sanda Kan built these houses. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just like to have fun in the hobby, and I do. No use getting all strung out over stuff. Have fun people! Save anger for work-but I don't work anymore, ha!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I hope Greg said he was sorry to Stan for using his thread as a platform to make your point on. 
Start your own gumbble thread. 
I've known AC used subs for years, so does all the other train companies. I hope you get on all the sites and bash them. 
I hope I don't act like this to the point folks loose respect for me. 
And thats all I have to say about that!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 12/24/2008 6:28 PM
Posted By Al McEvoy on 12/24/2008 5:30 PM

but what Mike says does not square with what has been written by Lewis Polk and other company officials on their forum.







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I wasn't trying to knock Aristo...as it seems my comments were taken. Aristo does the project development....PROJECT...and managment. Aristocraft measures the real engine if possible and photograph it...and make 2D drawings of the model they want produced. They document the curves of the real item...as those are difficult to show in a 2D drawing they explain. The movie shows John Mikesh on an engine doing that. If I understand their organization as explained briefly in the video, the project development is John Mikesh's job. They have other division managers for service and sales...and all three plus Lewis are shown participating in the business end of the project. 

For the Project part...that would be drawings and specifications that (I think) are provided to Sanda Kan...Aristo produces them I think...least that's my take on what I saw. For the service division of Aristo, it means reviewing the designs to ensure whatever is built is repairable...and reliable. They show Navin doing this in one part. Throught the whole video Mr. Polk, head of sales, is visible with Lewis...clearly working the classical business efforts....sales, marketing, packaging, distribution, oversight, etc. That's their team.

As I saw the video, the engineering to make a PRODUCT is done by Sanda Kan. Sanda Kan does the 3D CAD so that the parts together and that CAM processes can be used. They design the subassemblies. They do the electronics design. They sub out the PC board fabrication the movie said...but they do the stuffing and soldering and wiring of the boards...and engines and cars. They even do the packaging design...and interestingly have a lab that is designed to test the product packaging to ensure the product is well protected.

This is NOT to say that Aristocraft is not involved all the way along. Whatever product is being made...it's still one of their projects...and what I saw was classical project management by Aristocraft. So...it's incorrect to say they are just a distributor of someone else's product...this is THEIR product...and that came through loud and clear.



Marty, I'm agreeing with what Mike said, and disagreeing with what Al said.

 This is not "Stan's thread":, i.e. he owns it.


I only commented AFTER Mike and Al.


So what's your problem? I know what it is, I'm not saying Aristo is the greatest company in the world and can do no wrong.

You are overreacting. Why is it so important to people to keep stating that Aristo does all their own stuff?


And stating the truth is bashing? 


All I have been stating is that Sanda Kan does most of the work. So what? Why does that upset you and Al and Steve?

Why not say something relevant to the discussion?,If all you can do is call me names, then have at it... you can even start YOUR own grumble thread about me. 


Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Who cares???? Buy what you like and run what you want. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and it doesn't have to make evreybody feel all warm and fuzzy. I prefer USAT product and selection over Aristo but currently, mostly 90 percent of my train inventory is Aristo, go figure!!!!!


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 12/23/2008 8:23 PM

and the Aristo-Craft Production.... How Model Trains Are Made for the other train nut...... The DVD is quite well done, very informative and fun to watch.













What started out as a lighthearted post by Stan, showing himself and his grandson, just before the Season of Goodwill has now taken its inevitable course of criticism. I guess it is a shame that other manufacturers do not put their heads above the parapet - it would make for so much more sport if they did.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Great Western on 12/27/2008 2:05 PM



What started out as a lighthearted post by Stan, showing himself and his grandson, just before the Season of Goodwill has now taken its inevitable course of criticism. I guess it is a shame that other manufacturers do not put their heads above the parapet - it would make for so much more sport if they did.










You aren't kidding....I wish I hadn't said squat. I like the video is all I shoulda said and quit while I was ahead.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I just like Trains either AC or USAT. The only thing that bugs me is when a company does not tell ya the truth. And you can just guess which one does not. If you call there bluff all heck breaks loose. Later RJD


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah.... I started the thread with a positive remark on how much I enjoyed the DVD. 

Ya' just never know where these things might go. 

Oh yeah... I still liked the DVD. Great job, Lewis....


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

HEY ALL

I just wanted to say I'm sorry for my wording and attitude. I am a very poor example sometimes and there is no reason for it. Greg, I'm sorry.

RJ, well I'm still thinkin about it..heheheh

Outdoor model railroaders need to be good examples.
thanks


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Marty you don't ever need to apologize from my perspective - you are one of the most positive promoters of the hobby that I have seen across these forums.

One post earlier made a statement that I (among others ) was "upset". Incorrect interpretation.. at least about me. I don't ever get upset at this stuff. Eager for facts? Sure. Interested in sorting out opinions from facts? Usually (not always.







...sometimes it's fun watching the opinions fly back and forth - you learn things about different people and about the hobby in the meantime). Maybe misinterpreted Mike Reilly's original post a bit? Well, duh... yeah, that was obvious to me after he clarified on a later post. "Upset" at what he or anyone else said? Of course not - he saw the video, I didn't. 

I learned from this thread that Aristo-craft and other large scale (maybe all scale) brands get their products from a joint collaborative effort between in-country designers and marketing folks, along with the manufacturing design engineers and factory assembly teams from overseas. This seems pretty much on par with a lot of products these days - it's a global effort! I think it's pretty neat that guys like Steve G. and Marty, Greg and others have had input on designs - even if to varying degrees. 

I am just wondering how much "insurance" Sanda Kan carries on Mr. Song??? He sounds _really_ vital to the operation. Hope he is mentoring a few capable understudies.....









Happy New Year to All
Al


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Mr. Song is employed by Aristo as far as I can figure out. Also Mr. Kim who designed the new TE. These guys appear to be stateside. 

Also, you know that many things will change since Sanda Kan is now part of Kader. 

Regards, Greg


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Roger on Mr. Kim, Greg. I momentarily had forgotten about the Kader (owners of Bachmann) takeover. That was the topic of an earlier thread (or threads...) and the general consensus (or best-reasoned opinion as the case was) was that as far as Aristo-craft mgmt. seemed concerned (Lewis did not appear to be concerned...based on his posts in his own forum), the change in ownership wouldn't affect Aristo-craft's products much if at all. Time will tell.
Cheers
Al


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