# Building a vertical boiler?



## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm in the beginning stages of wanting to build a live steam donkey. At this point, I've assembled a Graham Industries vertical engine. It's designed to run on a max 30psi. I've bought a 3" piece of copper L pipe, I.D. is 2 7/8". I've acquired some valves, and elbows that would-I think-work for a sight glass. Haven't decided how to 'fire' the boiler yet. Looking for some guidance on how to proceed. I'm estimating the boiler portion to be about 6". So, first question is where to mount the sight, and how long or short should the glass be? Where do you get, and, what kind of glass does one use-Pyrex? If you use screw in elbows, not sure how one puts the glass in-that is, leave some slop in the fit? Next, I haven't figured out how, or what to use for the top and bottom of the boiler. I had hoped I could find some 3" in washers to silver braze in and run the flue through-haven't had any luck there, yet. Any thoughts or advice welcomed. Bill


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Before you build a boiler you might want to try to locate a copy of "Model Boilers and Boilermaking" by K. N. Harris, it has a lot of very useful info in it. Any type of boiler requires good design, proper materials, some quality metal work, not to mention hydro testing. 30 PSI means a test pressure in the range of 60-100PSI. Forget the washers and make some proper flanged flue sheets. Building a boiler can be a lot of fun but take the time to learn a bit about boilers. 

Jack


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## dwegmull (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi,
I've helped building four donkeys. You can see the 2D and 3D drawings for them here: http://wegmuller.org/logging/index.html


This file: http://wegmuller.org/logging/Complete%20donkey.pdf is a 3D PDF. you can view it with any recent version of Acrobat Reader. Click on the "tree" icon to open a list of all the parts in the assembly. The part numbers in this list match the ones in the 2D drawings.
 
Pictures: http://wegmuller.org/v-web/gallery/EDH-Lumber-Co-1:20-3-scale-Donkey-Engines


Our water gauges are made from Pirex tubing that we bought from a lab supply place. If I remember correctly, the gauge shows the level between 1/3 and 2/3 of the boiler height.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill,
I use a ceramic burner for my vertical boiler in my logging tram. It works great and is very efficient. The one I use is made by Forrest Classics (http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix%20001.htm) and looks like this. They also have small fuel tanks and appropriate pipe work that you order extra. I found that the best jet to use is a #8, which is also ordered extra. I'll be glad to email you detailed pictures of my boiler if you like.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks for the tips thus far! And, yes, Carl I'd like to see some pics. As far as making end caps, I've considered it but not sure I have the ability to make it. Actually, I found a heavy brass 'cup' whick I thought might be the way to do it by cutting it down, leaving a flange. Turned out to be just a tad too big but there may be others out there.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

Brass should never be used in a boiler! Before you hurt yourself or someone else, why don't you contact Harry Wade in Nashville. He is one of the most experienced miniature copper boiler builders in the US and I'm sure he would offer some good advice. He used to post as "GWRdriver" on this board.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Get the book mentioned above easily explains the process of building boilers. Making the boiler end flanges out if copper are not really hard, and the process is explained in the book. Might as well learn something and make a boiler you can be proud of.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

There are several types of vertical boilers. The usual style has tubes that extend above the waterline so the upper section of the tube is not water cooled. A better design is the submerged head design. This is what the early Shay locomotive boilers had. I told Harry Wade about this style of boiler while he was discussing the drawbacks of a vertical boiler to a customer. Harry informed me that the conversation was costing the other person money.... which flabergasted me and as this was at Diamonhead. I could have told the gent as much for NO charge.

Anyway the submerged head boiler is has short tubes but both the top and bottom heads are submerged. The simplest way to do this is have the firebox match the smokebox both could use the same size tube and fountation ring. The fire tubes connect the two tube sheets or heads. No stays are needed because the only flat sections are the tube sheets which are stayed by the tubes.

Cheers Dan


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

I will be soon building a vertical boiler with a submerged head. As I said the same size tube can be used for the inner firebox and the inner smoke box. If the fountation rings that connect the inner and outer pressure shells are tapped on both ends to fit a test blank, the whole inner assembly can be silver soldered and hydro tested before final assembly. This will insure that the hard to get to junction of the heads and the tubes is hydro checked when it is still simple to repair.

The water line can not be chosen before the design is final. The water has to keep the firebox cool so the design sets the water line, and it can not be stated with out saying what the type of boiler is under discussion.
Cheers Dan


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

For your first boiler, build the simplest design as possible, a simple center flue with no cross tubes can generate enough steam for a donkey engine or a locomotive. I made one for a boat and it clocks 40 lbs during normal running for 35 minutes. Also made one for my steam rail car and it runs nicely. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

O.K., guys, I've ordered 'The Book'! This becoming a little deeper than I had anticipated. I remember having a little steam engine as a kid and ran it quite often. When I started considering this, I began looking at some of the stuff on eBay to get ideas. I was amazed at the price these 'Vintage', worn out looking, units were bringing! The only vertical boilers were kits at a $140 that looked like pile of metal. So, I'll learn....hopefully.....how to do this from the book. I've studied the Wegmuller stuff pretty thoroughly so I think I can do this. Heck, I've been building guns for 30 years, I guess I can build a boiler. Right at the moment, my quest is locating the correct copper sheet to make the end caps. Brass hving been ruled out! Appreciate the advice and counsel, I imagine there are others wanting to do this too!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

Well Bill, 
Gunsmthing is one of the higest orders of home shop machinest. I have dogged eared my copy of Harris and as others said it will supply the nessary boiler formulas. You should have no problem with a boiler. 
Cheers Dan


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

I told Harry Wade about this style of boiler while he was discussing the drawbacks of a vertical boiler to a customer. Harry informed me that the conversation was costing the other person money.... which flabergasted me and as this was at Diamonhead. I could have told the gent as much for NO charge.

Talking to a customer? . . . then perhaps you interrupted a private conversation? Private conversations do take place at steamups, and perhaps the design you suggested was inappropriate for the application, or would add material and labor and therefore cost to the other person? Sounds like to me he was simply being honest, with both the customer and with you.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

OLD BOY, 
I found out that the gent was a customer when Harry told me that the discussion was costing him money not before. This was as I said at Diamondhead by the pool, there are no rules at Diamondhead if they had wanted insure that they were not interupted then they should have done the talking behind CLOSED doors. Not my fault, I left as soon as I found out that Harry was charging for his time. 

As to weather it was appropriate or not was for the customer to decide not me not you not Harry. 

I am a profesional engineer Harry Wade is not. Harry knows a bit about boilers but not enough in my opinion. Boilers are regulated at the state level in the United States for most applications. This means that the state code should be checked to insure that the boiler is constructed to the proper rules. I live in Texas this size of manually fired boiler equiped with a gauge glass and a safety valve and used for model or historic purpose is EXEMPT from the Texas State Boiler Code. 

I am not the one giving advice without giving my name OLD BOY.


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## GWRdriver (Apr 7, 2008)

Well Dan, Thank you for all those kind words and inaccurate, self-serving, misrepresentations. I will only say to anyone who cares that I charge when I build, as would most of you, and I am willing to let my reputation precede me, as yours most assuredly does you Dan. Cap'nBill, please feel free to get in touch any time, I'm just down the road. 
Harry Wade


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

You are quite welcome Harry, 
The last time we spoke or I tried to speak to you was about the subject of United States Boiler Code. Please state concrete examples of anything I posted that was a misrepresentation of the facts. We are all self-serving including you and yes my reputation does precede me. I am a graduate of the United States Merchant Marine Academy and have a degree in Marine Engineering. 

If I said anything that was not true go for it Harry, otherwise you are the one blowing smoke not me. 
Dan Rowe C.E.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Time, gentlemen, please. Let's keep the conversation civil and centered on the topic at hand. 

And no, I don't care who started it.  

Later, 

K


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Capt Bill, 
No need to find sheet copper for your end plates, if your copper pipe is long enough you cut off some and cut one side down its length. Anneal the copper and flatten it out for sheet, and then start from there. 

Sorry it does not take someone who knows boiler code or marine engineering to make a first class model boiler. It does take a bit of knowledge, craftsmanship, attention to detail, and skill to make a fine boiler, they are also called modelers. If you not sure how to design a boiler just copy a commercially manufactured boiler to start and you will begin on your way to knowing how. 

The boiler kit you probably saw on Ebay was most likely a PMR vertical boiler, it is actually a nice kit and a well designed boiler, silver solder it instead of soft solder and you will have a nice boiler for your donkey engine. It makes a good jumping off point if your interested in making your own boilers. I built one and it is fun to build. Fire it with gas, meths, or even sterno, don't use the pellets PMR sells. 

I have never heard of any state boiler code which includes model boilers, and we should keep it that way. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steveciambrone on 02/18/2009 10:02 PM
Capt Bill, 
.... I built one and it is fun to build. Fire it with gas, meths, or even sterno, don't use the pellets PMR sells. 

... 

Thanks 
Steve


Would you please state why not to use the pellets?


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 02/18/2009 10:07 PM
Posted By steveciambrone on 02/18/2009 10:02 PM
Capt Bill, 
.... I built one and it is fun to build. Fire it with gas, meths, or even sterno, don't use the pellets PMR sells. 

... 

Thanks 
Steve


Would you please state why not to use the pellets? 


They are normally used I guess for camping fire starters. On my boiler they clogged up a few of the fire tubes with some crap that was as hard as concrete and they do not burn very hot. Gas, meths, and sterno burns clean and a lot hotter. Sterno does leave a residue in the firebox but if a tray is made it is then contained in the tray and then easily cleanned up by soaking the tray in isopropal. 

Thanks
Steve


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I intended to say this in my previous post... and just to make sure we are on the same page...

I assume you are talking about the "Esbit" tablets that are sold to run the Jensen, Wilesco and other of the toy stationary boiler steam engines. I use them regularly for the pot type boilers and I have no problems other than soot on the boiler shell. Any residue in the burner tray usually burns in the next firing if I have not popped it off with a screwdriver beforehand. I wonder if it sticks less tenaciously to the chrome plated metal and more to plain copper or there is a problem due to the air flow in the flues of a flue type boiler.

Good info and fodder for thought, thanks.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

No these are not Esbit which I have used also since my first steam toy as a kid, fine for steam toys and other things.
The ones from PMR have a brand name of Heatab, which are a round tablet about 1/2" thick and about 3/4 round.

Steve


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Posted By steveciambrone on 02/18/2009 10:02 PM

I have never heard of any state boiler code which includes model boilers, and we should keep it that way. 



I am not a lawyer, I am an engineer, but there are several states that have provisions or EXEMPTIONS for model boilers, in my opinion if there is no mention of them then the full weight of the code can apply. Lawyers have no trouble threading an elephant through the eye of a needle.
 
I mentioned the exemption in Texas and I can link anyone to the section of the code that wants to read it for them self.
 
These things are not easy to find or read but they do exist.
Here is the Maryland Boiler Code.
 
09.12.01.33   09.12.01.33. 33 Model Steam Boilers
 
As I said the code for the state you live in should be checked to see if you are in compliance with a boiler build.
 
I know that this is not a popular subject and it has caused a lot of flame wars in the hobby mags, and I have been told to shut up several times about this subject, I am considering taking that advice soon.  

Dan Rowe C.E.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

For a boiler 3" in diameter, and a vertical one at that, I would think a pellet type fuel of any kind would be inadequate. Gas or coal would be far better. 

To Steve's point, certainly engineering has its place, but 99 and a large fractional % of all model boilers ever built weren't built or designed by engineers and the safety record of the world live steam community is vitrually spotless. There are reasons for this, having to do with good design, good building technique, and use of proper materials. Anyone who is in doubt about how to proceed please ask questions . . (there is no stupid one you know.)


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Interesting discussion guys! First, it seems there are two considerations here: One, a boiler and secondly, the engine. While my experience is quite limited, it seems from reading, there must be engines that run on high steam pressure-judging from the safety valves sold, and my engine (Graham) designed to run on from 5 up to (not more than) 30 psi. I would assume, therefore, the design of the engine dictates the requirements of the boiler. The term 'steam engine' is a bit of a misnomer-that is, there's an engine and a boiler. It would seem to follow, the capacity, and required pressure might be affected by the heat source-could be wrong here since the temp. creates the steam? My initial planning was to go the Sterno route.....seems the easiest. The idea of flattening the excess tube frankly, hadn't occurred to me! I had thought about using the extra 4 or 5" piece to make a water tank. In doing metal work, I have 3 'sizes' of silver braze/solder and use it on gun work.....stands up to pretty tough use! Seems like a starting point is knowing in advance what kind of steam pressure you're designing/building for and the proper safety valve after that. I'm thinking large sized boilers are operating at very high pressures based on the guages available. Correct me here if my logic is incorrect. Bill


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Harris will tell you how to size a boiler for a steam engine and presure. 30 psi is a very modest boiler and as copper pipe is designed to take higher pressure it is a good starting point and works well. You will not need much heating surface to achieve 30 psi and enough capacity of steam to run the Graham engine. 
Cheers Dan


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

I did a quick search and found Tennessee Boiler and Unfired Pressure Vessel Inspection Law, Rules and Regulations TITLE 68 
http://www.tn.gov/labor-wfd/tca_title68.pdf 
In this it does look like scale boilers are regulated 
68-122-104. Existing boilers required to conform - Applicability. 
(c) (1) The provisions of this part shall apply to "historic power boilers." "Historic power 
boilers" means any steam traction engine, portable, or stationary, standard or nonstandard power 
boiler, including free-lance and scale models, owned by publicly operated museums, nonprofit 
organizations and individuals who preserve, maintain, exhibit and only occasionally operate 
these boilers on a not-for-profit basis and for the primary purpose of perpetuating the agricultural 
and pioneer heritage of Tennessee. 
(2) Such boilers shall conform to the rules and regulations adopted by the board of boiler rules. 
You may want to inquire further. 
Regards, 
Gerald


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Harris' book is very good. He goes into depth about the amount of heating surface you need to generate steam at the pressure needed to run an engine at speed. He also goes into some depth on construction. On a 3" pipe, you should flange the end plates. Flanging is not difficult at all. Here is a couple of vertical designs from Harris' book:











You can reduce the number of tubes on this and increase them to 3/8" dia. You will get more water capacity and less problems with draft. Nice thing about this one, if you get a leak, all the joints are on the outside so you can get to them. 


This one always looked interesting:











This one calls for a 6" barrel, but I think it would work fine with a 3". Cut all the dimensions in half. Use a 2" pipe for the fire box. Use 3/4" or 1/2 pipe for the fire hole. Run it on alcohol or gas. This would be easier to build and you don't have to make a casing for it. Just make sure you have solid, well penetrated joints on the inside.

Another good resource is any book by Kozo Hiraoka. He shows in great detail all the flanging and bushings you'll need to do. As well as fittings.

Probably a good first boiler is a simple "pot" boiler. Just cap the end of a chunk of pipe and put a casing around it. Do a search in the old MLS achieves for "Dunkirk" Steve Shyvers used a pot boiler on his Dunkirk locie. He jazzed his up a lot, but that's general idea. As I recall, he showed a nifty alcohol burner too.


As an editorial opinion, all this boiler code stuff is a bunch of garbage for these tiny sizes. If your boiler passes a hydro test you will not have a problem. There is simply not enough energy in these little boilers. The extreme extreme extreme worse that can happen is the inner flues will collapse long before anything goes wrong on the outside. And that would happen at around 300 or 400 PSI. Most likely you get a pin hole leak and you can't build pressure. 


Would be very interested in seeing you project. Please post some pics as you progress

Bob


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob,
flanging the end caps is no longer en vogue. The famous Australian boiler code ( which is specifically for model boilers and respected all over the world) suggests simple disks. Reason is, that the silver solder penetrates the disks better so you get silver solder on both sides, which is not always guaranteed with flanges. All our recent boilers (see David's comment) are built this way. Make sure the disks are properly deburred. I totally agree with you about the fact that small boilers don't explode.
Regards


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Bob and all, If you took the time to review the Maryland Model Boiler Code you will see that it is not all that different from the formulas given in the Harris book.

This is on page 6 of that book in the forward written by Edgar T. Westbury.

"It should never be forgoten that even a small boiler. or indead any kind of pressure vessel, is capable of considerable explosive force if it should burst, and may throw missils, in the form of metal fragments, for a great distance; I have witnessed this in deliberate distruction tests of boilers. This is not intended to be alarmist propaganda; boilers are perfictly safe if constructed in the ways recomended in this book, and it is up to model engineers to keep them so."

If the worst case happened the boiler code rules are on the web, with my background a lawyer would cut me to ribbons. If you consider it garbage why are you recomending a book that has a set of design rules to construct a safe boiler?

These rules were worked out by engineers with a whole lot more experience than I have and I would not take the written word of Edgar T. Westbury lightly, and K.N. Harris was an engineer.
Dan


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I began to believe the comments about small boilers not exploding... then I saw this.



Granted I cannot tell from the video how the boiler was constructed or exactly what ruptured, but it does point out that even small boilers are not something to be triffled with.

The person that posted this has not responded to repeated requests for more info about what happned.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan,
I own the Harris book and have read it very thoroughly many times. However this book was first published in 1967. At this time e.g. riveting/caulking/soft soldering was still a valid method to build boilers. Nowadays the boilers are silvered soldered throughout. These modern boilers are basically fail safe. They consist of a boiler tube, disks as end plates and a comparatively thin walled flue tube without cross tubes. In case of overheating or overpressure the inner tube collapses and extinguishes the flame. I have seen such a boiler which shut itself down. It was even repairable.
Semper Vaporo,

I have seen this video. I don't think the boiler "exploded", the guy seemed to have burned a hole into the boiler tube or a fitting failed, causing the steam to escape (which admittedly is pretty unpleasant). I bet, the boiler did not disintegrate.

I refuse to have our lovely hobby be scaled back to running trains in train simulator....

Regards


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Here is a website address you should look at. It reviews construction and testing to destruction a series of model boilers . 

http://sgcox.site.net.au/ritg/boiler-tests.pdf 

It shows just how strong model boilers are , the factor of safety is very high. I have saved this file for reference. 

Charles M SA#74


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Charles, 
Paul sent me that link after discussing the test at Diamondhead. Yes that is the most likely what would happen. 

Henner read Harris again he is STRONGLY against soft solder for the constructiuon of boilers. 

It does not matter to me what you gents think nor will it matter in a court of law if a child is injured by a boiler rupture. Inorgance of the law is not valid in a court room. 
Dan


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 02/19/2009 8:18 PM
Charles, 
Paul sent me that link after discussing the test at Diamondhead. Yes that is the most likely what would happen. 

Henner read Harris again he is STRONGLY against soft solder for the constructiuon of boilers. 

It does not matter to me what you gents think nor will it matter in a court of law if a child is injured by a boiler rupture. Inorgance of the law is not valid in a court room. 
Dan
That's what I said! Harris still recommends caulking and soft solder, which is outdated. My point is that since Harris wrote his book, boiler making has changed. If you are afraid a child could be injured, it is more important to not fuel up a loco with gas when another loco approaches. I have never seen or heard of a catastrophically failing model locomotive boiler, but watched several pretty spectacular gas flare ups with kids dangerously close! Now back to making some fittings for my boiler.
Charles,
your link was what I referred to. Thanks for posting it, I lost my copy...

Regards


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 02/19/2009 6:34 PM
Bob and all, If you took the time to review the Maryland Model Boiler Code you will see that it is not all that different from the formulas given in the Harris book.

This is on page 6 of that book in the forward written by Edgar T. Westbury.

"It should never be forgoten that even a small boiler. or indead any kind of pressure vessel, is capable of considerable explosive force if it should burst, and may throw missils, in the form of metal fragments, for a great distance; I have witnessed this in deliberate distruction tests of boilers. This is not intended to be alarmist propaganda; boilers are perfictly safe if constructed in the ways recomended in this book, and it is up to model engineers to keep them so."

If the worst case happened the boiler code rules are on the web, with my background a lawyer would cut me to ribbons. If you consider it garbage why are you recomending a book that has a set of design rules to construct a safe boiler?

These rules were worked out by engineers with a whole lot more experience than I have and I would not take the written word of Edgar T. Westbury lightly, and K.N. Harris was an engineer.
Dan




Dan: Look very closely at the designs in the those UK texts. Westbury, LBSC, Greenly and others often called for paper thin boiler shells, some of them as thin as 20 gauge. Alot of the were rolled copper with some kind of brazed joint. They also used to specify a lot of rivets and soft solder chauk, especially on stay bolts Some of them even called for bronze castings for end plates. They used to pack thier boilers in coke during brazing because thier torches were inadequate. A lot of these boilers were fired with coal or vaporized kerosene and even white gas (unleaded gasoline). Running one of thier boilers low on water is clearly disasterous. No body builds them like that anymore. Now-a-days, folks use "L" or "M" wall pipe, thicker plates, known quality bronze for bushings, better brazing equipment/materials, alcohol or butane gas for fuel. 

What I should have said is use Harris' (et al) designs, but use todays methods, tools and materials. Even Harris says in his book, if you are smart enough to build a boiler, it is reasonable to expect you are smart enough to run it correctly. 


Look at these test results from standards developed by the Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/Jointdesigntestsfinal1.3.pdf

The weakest boiler held to 1000 PSI. 'nuf said.


The trouble with these boiler rules (and others like them) is that the state gets to create a bureacratic office to require an annual certifcation for the soul purpose of simply collecting more "hidden taxes". And if there is a problem, you will be responsible anyway. The state is not going to help you one bit or accept any resposibility. Now, if you are running a welded steel boiler with a 12" barrel at 120 PSI, with about 150 square inches of grate surface, hauling the public around, that's a different case. That's a real power plant. And you probably should certify the engineer too.


This guy wants to build a 30 PSI boiler. If he hydro's it to 60 PSI with all the bushings plugged, and it holds for 30 minutes, he's good to go. If he does a hydro to 45 PSI once a year thereafter with all the fittings on it, he's good to go. I'll bet half a month's pay that almost nobody tests thier Accucraft, Aster, Roundhouse boilers on an annual basis. Come on, let's be honest.


I am really tempted to take a Ruby boiler and fire it with my 320,000 BTU torch just to see how many PSI I can get before it blows up.

Thanks for the rant. I'll shut up.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By HMeinhold on 02/19/2009 6:32 PM
Bob,
flanging the end caps is no longer en vogue. The famous Australian boiler code ( which is specifically for model boilers and respected all over the world) suggests simple disks. Reason is, that the silver solder penetrates the disks better so you get silver solder on both sides, which is not always guaranteed with flanges. All our recent boilers (see David's comment) are built this way. Make sure the disks are properly deburred. I totally agree with you about the fact that small boilers don't explode.
Regards




Hi Henner: You are right. I was recalling test result and 2.5" barrel stuck in my mind for some reason as a cut over from flat to flanged. I stand corrected

Bob


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Posted By xo18thfa on 02/19/2009 9:39 PM
Dan: Look very closely at the designs in the those UK texts. Westbury, LBSC, Greenly and others often called for paper thin boiler shells, some of them as thin as 20 gauge. Alot of the were rolled copper with some kind of brazed joint. They also used to specify a lot of rivets and soft solder chauk, especially on stay bolts Some of them even called for bronze castings for end plates. They used to pack thier boilers in coke during brazing because thier torches were inadequate. A lot of these boilers were fired with coal or vaporized kerosene and even white gas (unleaded gasoline). Running one of thier boilers low on water is clearly disasterous. No body builds them like that anymore. Now-a-days, folks use "L" or "M" wall pipe, thicker plates, known quality bronze for bushings, better brazing equipment/materials, alcohol or butane gas for fuel. 

What I should have said is use Harris' (et al) designs, but use todays methods, tools and materials. Even Harris says in his book, if you are smart enough to build a boiler, it is reasonable to expect you are smart enough to run it correctly. 


Look at these test results from standards developed by the Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/Jointdesigntestsfinal1.3.pdf

The weakest boiler held to 1000 PSI. 'nuf said.


The trouble with these boiler rules (and others like them) is that the state gets to create a bureacratic office to require an annual certifcation for the soul purpose of simply collecting more "hidden taxes". And if there is a problem, you will be responsible anyway. The state is not going to help you one bit or accept any resposibility. Now, if you are running a welded steel boiler with a 12" barrel at 120 PSI, with about 150 square inches of grate surface, hauling the public around, that's a different case. That's a real power plant. And you probably should certify the engineer too.


This guy wants to build a 30 PSI boiler. If he hydro's it to 60 PSI with all the bushings plugged, and it holds for 30 minutes, he's good to go. If he does a hydro to 45 PSI once a year thereafter with all the fittings on it, he's good to go. I'll bet half a month's pay that almost nobody tests thier Accucraft, Aster, Roundhouse boilers on an annual basis. Come on, let's be honest.


I am really tempted to take a Ruby boiler and fire it with my 320,000 BTU torch just to see how many PSI I can get before it blows up.

Thanks for the rant. I'll shut up.




Bob,
If you use the Maryland boiler rules for the boiler in question a 3" vertical boiler at 30 psi then 20 gauge copper is thick enough. They do not list a max allowable working stress for 30 psi so I used the value for 80 psi to be on the safe side. This is 4400 psi, Harris gives .036" for the fhickness of 20 S.W.G.. Asuming a seamless tube and the max alowable pressure is 105 psi. Of course if the design was for 100 psi the max allowable stress for copper would have to be reduced at that pressure and temperature the value is 4200 psi.

Now as to your 12" barrel design.... well I agree that that size of boiler should be regulated how ever I do not set the rules. this is the rule for the State of TX:
http://www.license.state.tx.us/boilers/blrlaw.htm
§§ 755.022. EXEMPTIONS FOR CERTAIN BOILERS. 

(a) This chapter does not apply to:


(1) boilers owned or operated by the federal government; 


(2) pressure vessels or process steam generators, other than steam collection or liberation drums of process steam generators;


(3) manually fired miniature boilers that:


(A) are constructed or maintained for locomotives, boats, tractors, or stationary engines only as a hobby for exhibition, recreation, education, or historical purposes and not for commercial use;


(B) have an inside diameter of 12 inches or less or a grate area of two square feet or less; and
(C) are equipped with a safety valve of adequate size, a water level indicator, and a pressure gauge; 


*That size of boiler is EXEMPT in the State of Texas and my point all along is that the State code should be checked for any boiler build. There are a lot of folks that are stating "facts" that have not done the research to prove what they are saying. The head in the sand aproach for boiler design is not a good one.
*Dan Rowe


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

As the original poster is in Tennesse he should check; 
Tennessee Boiler and Unfired Pressure Vessel Inspection Law, Rules and Regulations TITLE 68 
Part of which states; 
"68-122-102. Rules and regulations - Definitions. 
(a) The board shall formulate definitions, rules and regulations for the safe and proper 
construction, installation, repair, use and operation of boilers in this state. The definitions, rules 
and regulations so formulated shall be based upon, and, at all times, follow the generally 
accepted nationwide engineering standards, formulae, and practices established and pertaining to 
boiler construction and safety, and the board may by resolution adopt an existing published 
codification thereof, known as the Boiler Construction Code of the American Society of 
Mechanical Engineers," 
It defines a boiler as; 
"(1) "Boiler" means and includes a closed vessel or vessels intended for use in heating water or 
other liquids or for generating steam or other vapors under pressure or vacuum by the direct 
application of heat from combustible fuels, electricity, or nuclear energy, and also includes an 
unfired pressure vessel, meaning a vessel in which pressure is obtained from an external source 
or from an indirect application of heat;" 
68-122-104. Existing boilers required to conform - Applicability. 
(a) All boilers which were in use, or installed ready for use in this state prior to the date upon 
which the first rules and regulations became effective, or during the twelve-month period 
immediately thereafter, shall be made to conform to the rules and regulations of the board 
governing existing installations, and the formulae prescribed therein shall be used in determining 
the maximum allowable working pressure for such boilers. 
(b) The provisions of this part shall not be construed as in any way preventing the use or sale of 
boilers as referred to in subsection (a); provided, that they have been made to conform to the 
rules and regulations of the board governing existing installations; and provided further, that they 
have not been found upon inspection to be in an unsafe condition. 
(c) (1) The provisions of this part shall apply to "historic power boilers." "Historic power 
boilers" means any steam traction engine, portable, or stationary, standard or nonstandard power 
boiler, including free-lance and scale models, owned by publicly operated museums, nonprofit 
organizations and individuals who preserve, maintain, exhibit and only occasionally operate 
these boilers on a not-for-profit basis and for the primary purpose of perpetuating the agricultural 
and pioneer heritage of Tennessee. 
(2) Such boilers shall conform to the rules and regulations adopted by the board of boiler rules. 

Please note it specifically states "including free-lance and scale models" 
There probably is an exemption due to the size. There is one in the Province of Ontario, and Dan has pointed to one for Texas, but if there is one for Tennesse it needs to be found and the constructor of a boiler needs to be able to refer to it. 
Regards, 
Gerald. 
PS if you listen to the sound on the video about 23 seconds in they mention altering the safety, I think they are practising for the "Darwin Award" they certainly sound like prime canidates.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not going to argue the technical validity of these boiler codes. They are wonderful documents, I love them. My concern is that we "show off" these documents and our hobby heads down a slippery slope to regulation. Many clubs operate in a public forum. Ours does too. We set up in commercial, gov't and community facilities 3 or 4 times a year. We run steam too (over the shear distain of the "sparkies"). The public loves it. We get new members each time we run. I would really hate to see a club get shut out of running in a public place because some snot-nosed "do-gooder" got a hold of one of these documents and made an issue out of it. The liability insurance impact could spill over to the sparkies too.


And what about commercially made boilers? Are you suggesting that some Chinese guy who snifs cadmium all day can make an Accrucraft boiler safer than the ones I make? Do they adhere to any state codes? 


What our hobby needs is trained professionals like Dan highlighting our 99.9999999999999999% successful safety record, rather than some bureaucrat with a state code in hand punishing everyone while trying to fix a .0000000000000000001% problem. 


To the fellow who started this thread, don't be scared off. These debates happen all the time. Build your boiler and have fun. Learn from your first attempt and build the next even better. If you get stumped ask for help. Lots of guys here in MLS have "been there, done that". I would just reiterate getting one of Kozo Hiraoka's books to go along with Harris.


Bob


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Posted By xo18thfa on 02/20/2009 2:19 PM
I am not going to argue the technical validity of these boiler codes. They are wonderful documents, I love them. My concern is that we "show off" these documents and our hobby heads down a slippery slope to regulation. Many clubs operate in a public forum. Ours does too. We set up in commercial, gov't and community facilities 3 or 4 times a year. We run steam too (over the shear distain of the "sparkies"). The public loves it. We get new members each time we run. I would really hate to see a club get shut out of running in a public place because some snot-nosed "do-gooder" got a hold of one of these documents and made an issue out of it. The liability insurance impact could spill over to the sparkies too.


And what about commercially made boilers? Are you suggesting that some Chinese guy who snifs cadmium all day can make an Accrucraft boiler safer than the ones I make? Do they adhere to any state codes? 


What our hobby needs is trained professionals like Dan highlighting our 99.9999999999999999% successful safety record, rather than some bureaucrat with a state code in hand punishing everyone while trying to fix a .0000000000000000001% problem. 


To the fellow who started this thread, don't be scared off. These debates happen all the time. Build your boiler and have fun. Learn from your first attempt and build the next even better. If you get stumped ask for help. Lots of guys here in MLS have "been there, done that". I would just reiterate getting one of Kozo Hiraoka's books to go along with Harris.


Bob





Bob, The reason Maryland has a model boiler code is because a state boiler inspector came across some live steamers and asked what they were doing. The state of Maryland worked with the live steam community to set a safe set of rules for public safety. http://www.calslivesteam.org/

If you think the "fees" charged for this service to the public come anywhere close to the actual cost of the service to the public you are sadly mistaken.
My Wife is a regulator for the State of Texas and makes sure that the drinking water is safe for the citizens of this country. Most of the people in this line of work get very little in the way of pay or recognition for the work they do.

Yes the hobby has a very good safety record, but ignoring the facts will not improve that record. The Case 110 explosion in Medina OH in the summer of 2001 took 3 lives. You might be saying sure but what does that have to do with the small scale hobby. Well the boiler laws in Ohio and all the midwest were affected by the tragedy, and that affects boilers of ANY size. The boiler laws are fluid and can be changed to address the concerns of citizens for the better or the worse, but turning a blind eye to them will not make them go away. 
I am not trying to use scare any one away from the hobby, but I strongly believe that information is the way to keep the hobby safe. I have done my best to present the facts about United States Boiler Law to the forum.
Dan Rowe


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Our small (gauge one) boilers and the low pressures we run pose NO safety hazard beyond a quick release of hot steam. There is NOT enough energy to cause an explosion with shrapnel. It is a complete waste of time and money to inspect or test our boilers. Pressurized gas tank may be another mater. Any government paid employee wasting tax payer dollars to ask anything past size and operating pressure should be handed their walking papers. There are better thing to spend tax payer money on. This subject has been beaten to death here before. The only real danger we are exposed to is from the heat source !


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02/20/2009 4:11 PM
Our small (gauge one) boilers and the low pressures we run pose NO safety hazard beyond a quick release of hot steam. There is NOT enough energy to cause an explosion with shrapnel. It is a complete waste of time and money to inspect or test our boilers. Pressurized gas tank may be another mater. Any government paid employee wasting tax payer dollars to ask anything past size and operating pressure should be handed their walking papers. There are better thing to spend tax payer money on. This subject has been beaten to death here before. The only real danger we are exposed to is from the heat source ! 


Jeff, do you have any proof of those statments other than the paper by Paul Trevaskis that has already been linked to this thread twice? I am afraid that 'Jeff said so' is not good enough for me. This is an engineering discussion and in my opinion statments that broad in scope NEED proof.

Guess what? Gas tanks are also regulated on the state level and I totally failed to come up with the rules for them.

This is a free country and you are entitled to your opinion - but it was simply that without proof or research to back you up.

We are talking about an externally fired pressure vessel. This can lead in the wrong hands or circumstances to deadly results. I will refrain from using the true word so we do not attract any more attention to this, but there are other uses for short lengths of pipe with end caps in place.
Dan Rowe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, well stated and correctly so. I was speaking to a litigation lawyer with 55 years experience and a live steam hobbyist about building boilers this past weekend. His summary was that there was not US code requiring inspection of our boilers. Secondly there is no danger posed by our boilers based on proper design. Those who engage boiler building do so with guidelines from sources that have proven standards such as demonstrated by AMBSC. Those in our hobby that offer their expert services (Harry, Dick, Torry, Justin, Gordon and others) do so based on a wealth of knowledge and experience. 

Citing the Ohio incident and the idiot on Youtube has no bearing on the years of safe gauge one operation or proper design features offered in our live steam models. Denoting the AMBSC tests and cited references for design, most can build a proper boiler with safety and successful operations in mind.

Dan, maybe you can educate Jeff, myself and others with "facts" that indicate that there has been a serious problem with a gauge one boiler relative to the proper standards and design utilized throughout our hobby (given that the state of Michigan, Maryland, New Jersey, PA, along with the Aussies do not think there is a safety problem, thus no testing required in USA) therefore it is not "Jeff says". 

BTW- "externally fired" would denote pot boilers which are rarely utilized in modern designs of gauge one boilers (yet we have several vintage engines that run on our layouts with great success and safety). IMHO using words such as "deadly results" overstates the minor potential for safety issues in gauge one.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 02/20/2009 3:36 PM
Posted By xo18thfa on 02/20/2009 2:19 PM
I am not going to argue the technical validity of these boiler codes. They are wonderful documents, I love them. My concern is that we "show off" these documents and our hobby heads down a slippery slope to regulation. Many clubs operate in a public forum. Ours does too. We set up in commercial, gov't and community facilities 3 or 4 times a year. We run steam too (over the shear distain of the "sparkies"). The public loves it. We get new members each time we run. I would really hate to see a club get shut out of running in a public place because some snot-nosed "do-gooder" got a hold of one of these documents and made an issue out of it. The liability insurance impact could spill over to the sparkies too.


And what about commercially made boilers? Are you suggesting that some Chinese guy who snifs cadmium all day can make an Accrucraft boiler safer than the ones I make? Do they adhere to any state codes? 


What our hobby needs is trained professionals like Dan highlighting our 99.9999999999999999% successful safety record, rather than some bureaucrat with a state code in hand punishing everyone while trying to fix a .0000000000000000001% problem. 


To the fellow who started this thread, don't be scared off. These debates happen all the time. Build your boiler and have fun. Learn from your first attempt and build the next even better. If you get stumped ask for help. Lots of guys here in MLS have "been there, done that". I would just reiterate getting one of Kozo Hiraoka's books to go along with Harris.


Bob





Bob, The reason Maryland has a model boiler code is because a state boiler inspector came across some live steamers and asked what they were doing. The state of Maryland worked with the live steam community to set a safe set of rules for public safety. http://www.calslivesteam.org/

If you think the "fees" charged for this service to the public come anywhere close to the actual cost of the service to the public you are sadly mistaken.
My Wife is a regulator for the State of Texas and makes sure that the drinking water is safe for the citizens of this country. Most of the people in this line of work get very little in the way of pay or recognition for the work they do.

Yes the hobby has a very good safety record, but ignoring the facts will not improve that record. The Case 110 explosion in Medina OH in the summer of 2001 took 3 lives. You might be saying sure but what does that have to do with the small scale hobby. Well the boiler laws in Ohio and all the midwest were affected by the tragedy, and that affects boilers of ANY size. The boiler laws are fluid and can be changed to address the concerns of citizens for the better or the worse, but turning a blind eye to them will not make them go away. 
I am not trying to use scare any one away from the hobby, but I strongly believe that information is the way to keep the hobby safe. I have done my best to present the facts about United States Boiler Law to the forum.
Dan Rowe







Dan: Come on, be for real here. The boiler explosion in Ohio was not a Gauge 1 boiler. That was a full size Case tractor, one of the bigger ones Case made. It was a 100 year old antique, year model 1909 I think. The crown sheet and stays were 20% rusted away. The owner tried to patch leaking holes with chalking compound (for pete's sake). They ran it out of water and exposed the top crown to full heat. The pressure gauge was tested and found to be faulty. It was reading 25 PSI under actual pressure. The safety valve was sticky. The fusible plug was found still intact. It was operated at an unsafe pressure by guys who did not know what they were doing. I think the accident report said that boiler was capable of 47 PSI, not the 125 PSI it was originally designed for. No one knows what the crew was running it at since they all got killed. Yes. That boiler should have gotten inspected and condemned. The crew should have evaluated too, I am sure they would been de-certified in an instant.

Ohio is not realitic. Find a documented example of a Gauge 1 boiler that blew up and killed 3 people and you have an arguement. 


As for state regulators, what would they solve? If a state certified boiler was involved in accident, do you think the state would take any responsibility? Absolutely no way. The state would never be held accountable for a problem. The owner of the boiler or the club (follow the money) would get sued. For our hobby purposes, an experienced boiler inspector from a live steam railroad club would make far better inspector than anyone the state could come up with. He would have a vested interest in doing the job correctly. Clubs can police thier own just fine.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 02/20/2009 4:53 PM
Jeff, well stated and correctly so. I was speaking to a litigation lawyer with 55 years experience and a live steam hobbyist about building boilers this past weekend. His summary was that there was not US code requiring inspection of our boilers. Secondly there is no danger posed by our boilers based on proper design. Those who engage boiler building do so with guidelines from sources that have proven standards such as AMBSC. Those in our hobby that offer their expert services (Harry, Dick, Torry, Justin, Gordon and others) do so based on a wealth of knowledge and experience. 
Citing the Ohio incident and the idiot on Youtube has no bearing on the years of safe gauge one operation or proper design features offered in our live steam models. Denoting the AMBSC tests and cited references for design, most can build a proper boiler with safety and successful operations in mind.

Dan, maybe you can education Jeff, myself and others with "facts" that indicate that there has been a serious problem with a gauge one boiler relative to the proper standards and design utilized throughout our hobby (given that the state of Michigan, Maryland, New Jersey, PA, along with the Aussies do not think there is a problem, thus no testing required).





Charles,
I respectfully disagree with you that the Ohio incident and the ytube idiot do not have anything to do with our hobby. They are both the type of thing that will get the public up in arms and limit our feeedom to practice our hobby.

I would also like to point out that even if you build to the AMBSC code that will not be a legal boiler in Australia as only certified builders can do that, the general public has to have the boiler inspected durring the building process.

The rules in the UK and down under are clear- no certificate of inspection no public run.

I am not saying that inspection other than the normal hydro is needed for the hobby. I would like it if everone that has responded to this thread could link the state code for where they live.
I have no facts that prove the hobby is safe or unsafe. From the perspective of a rose, a gardener never dies.

There is, as you said in your second sentence, no danger based on proper design. That is why there is a code to insure proper design. The same rules can be used to design an unsafe boiler and that is a criminal offense.

Dan Rowe


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, do the math! You can find all the "strength of materials" you need on the internet. the small amount of WATER our boilers hold limit the amount of stored energy. The Jack Ass on you tube put a solvent, I think it was WD 40 IN the "boiler" and heated it with a torch. He should have been arrested for making a BOMB ! just as if he had used a piece of pipe and gun powder. No amount of inspection or regulations will protect you from someone like that. You can go back to the archives and search this subject, it comes up now and again. Most clubs require annual testing of boilers in the ride on sizes, and I never heard anyone object to it. Even the largest gauge one engines like Cab Forwards, Big Boys and Allegheny don't have large enough boilers to be dangerous! Oh and BTW Just cause its the law "in the UK and down under" doesn't make in a good idea. Just look at their "home invasion crime rates" compared to places where you are allowed to own guns. In an attempt to make them safer, they have put them in harms way.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
I have seen several cases of gauge one boilers that have either been run dry or developed a leak: no danger. The dry boilers collapsed onto the fire tubes and the leak did not cause an expansion of the hole just a slow loss of steam. If some one would document any serious danger beyond what I have knowledge of then I might agree to boiler testing under certain circumstances.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02/20/2009 6:17 PM
Dan, do the math! You can find all the "strength of materials" you need on the internet. the small amount of WATER our boilers hold limit the amount of stored energy. The Jack Ass on you tube put a solvent, I think it was WD 40 IN the "boiler" and heated it with a torch. He should have been arrested for making a BOMB ! just as if he had used a piece of pipe and gun powder. No amount of inspection or regulations will protect you from someone like that. You can go back to the archives and search this subject, it comes up now and again. Most clubs require annual testing of boilers in the ride on sizes, and I never heard anyone object to it. Even the largest gauge one engines like Cab Forwards, Big Boys and Allegheny don't have large enough boilers to be dangerous! Oh and BTW Just cause its the law "in the UK and down under" doesn't make in a good idea. Just look at their "home invasion crime rates" compared to places where you are allowed to own guns. In an attempt to make them safer, they have put them in harms way. 

Jeff,
I have not done the math. 
Have you? 
If so what is the cutoff point in cubic centimeters that makes a boiler dangerous? 
I do not need the internet to make the calculations my libray has all the information required for such calculations. 
You will need more than strength of materials to do the calculatiosn but yes the required information is on the internet.

The rough calculation I read researching full scale boiler casualties is that one cubic foot of water at 60psi has the explosive power of one pound of black powder.

This is truly not a question of law unless it is a law of physics.
Dan Rowe


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan you have your answer ONE CUBIC FOOT of water is almost 7 1/2 gallons of water most if these boilers are about 1/10 of a gallon or less .. now you have a firecracker. and you have not looked at the strength of material for the boiler and the slow burn of the black powder (the least potent kind of gun powder) about .2 oz of black powder unless your using a soda can for a boiler, not much to worry about. But It does make you think about how much energy is stored in a full size (1:1) running at 300 psi WOW


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Jeff,
You did not answer the question. Have you done the calculations for the explosive power of water that flashes to steam in an instant?

I am really a sledge hammer type of engineer. 
I think that I could make that type of calculation but it has been a long time since I opened some of those books.
I am at a slight disavantage as to looking in the archives because I am on dialup but if any one would do me the favor of finding any thread that says how to calculate the power of water flashing to steam in an instant, I will read them. If there are any other engineers still reading this thread please help me remember the asumptions that have to be made in order to calculate this.

And wow is right, I have worked with a hammer wrench and a short handle sledge to take up a flange on the top of a 1000psi boiler under steam. I still have nightmares about that type of work.
Dan Rowe


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## linuxhost (Jan 5, 2008)

And wow is right, I have worked with a hammer wrench and a short handle sledge to take up a flange on the top of a 1000psi boiler under steam. I still have nightmares about that type of work.
Dan Rowe



Dan,
Only a 1000psi?

Must be a small boiler because the super-critical boiler that I'm sitting next to, currently has the steam at 1000 degrees and 3000psi. 

If you were using a hammer wrench on a flange fitting under pressure, you are lucky to still be around to talk about it. Because even at only 1000psi, you can not see the steam 3 feet away from the point of escape.




Doug Bronson


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Doug, 
You must be at a power plant. The boiler I was working on was a ships boiler and they have to be able to manuever the ship so the load will vary durring those times a lot more than what you are use to. Add that to a moving platform and the pressures you are talking about would lead to premature failure at sea. Yes ships boilers are a lot smaller in the range of 60,000 horsepower. The Navy has stuff a bit higher pressure but merchant ships are very consertive designs. 

I have heard the stories of only being able to see the steam 3 feet away but I have never witnessed it. This flange was on the top of the boiler with no shut off and had a slight weep. As you know only heat treated nuts and bolts are used for this type of service. The guys I was with said that they did this all the time... I worked with them as a ship is the only ride home but it is a fact that I was trully thinking each strike of the hammer would be my last act on this earth. 

Can you tell the forum about the explosive force of water flashing to steam. The assumption is the pressure shell has ruptured and ALL the water wants to flash to steam at once. I can look up the condition of the water at that pressure and calculate the volume of steam it will produce. How do I caculate how much force is avaible to throw a chunk of metal or the entire pressure shell? 

Dan Rowe


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Whether you want it or not boilers are regulated The following is in effect in all Canadian Provinces and 49 of the USA states. 
Boiler Construction Code of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers," 
It defines a boiler as; 
"(1) "Boiler" means and includes a closed vessel or vessels intended for use in heating water or 
other liquids or for generating steam or other vapors under pressure or vacuum by the direct 
application of heat from combustible fuels, electricity, or nuclear energy, and also includes an 
unfired pressure vessel, meaning a vessel in which pressure is obtained from an external source 
or from an indirect application of heat;" 
The Code does not in its definition does not exempt a boiler on its size, that is usually listed elsewhere. If you are going to build a boiler you have to find out exactly what the code specifies for your area. 
Regards, 
Gerald


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Gerald, yes that is true and well said. I was not aware that one of the states did not have a boiler code. If the 49 states was not a typo could you tell me which one to cross off my list of places to visit full size equipment under steam.

It seams that no one posting here to say that small boilers are safe can point out who made the calculations to make the statement. Or even how to make such calculations.

I find this fact very disturbing. If we have to lobby the State legislature in order to keep the small scale hobby free from any more government intervention then there already is, we better have a better argument than has been presented on this forum so far.

We are talking about engineering, specifically the thermodynamics of steam and water. The strength of material calculation only describes the pressure vessel not the contents. Thermodynamics… the name says it all: heat and motion… that is what we will have as soon as the pressure rises to a level that makes the boiler shell fail. This is not a hydro test which does not heat the water. If the tests made by Paul Trevaskis were made by heating the test samples with a blow torch as in the youtube demonstration, the failure pressure would have been the same. The explosive force of water with that much internal energy attempting to flash to steam would have led to much different results.

Why do we use water and a pump for the hydro test… because it is safe!! The same experiment with a blow torch will look like the youtube idiots. Jeff, you said that you thought they used some form of accelerant. Well if you watch they are not really afraid of the ‘experiment’. If they had used some compound known to blow up they would have been standing back a little further, and most likely moved the operation outside. No, I believe that they did a destructive test of a boiler with water. They had NO idea how dangerous a common substance like plane tap water can be in a heated closed vessel. I believe that they most likely soiled their trousers. 

Dan Rowe


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I just gotta ask... which state does not have a boiler code?????


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, in the first 5 seconds of the you tube video, the person speaking said "we've added WD40".. I have NEVER found any report of anyone being injured from a boiler failure, beyond what can happen if you put your hand or face directly over the safety. This is when said boilers are for gauge one or smaller and built to accepted standards. If you can find a report of some one being injured from a gauge one boiler failure when being used in the intended fashion please post a link. 
As to the observation that "they are not really afraid of the experiment" I don't think intelligence is a requirement for posting on you tube. I like to think most people in this hobby have a little of what we call "common sense"


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02/20/2009 4:11 PM
There is NOT enough energy to cause an explosion with shrapnel. 


*Jeff,* 
*YOU MADE THIS STATEMENT*


*What is your proof?*

*Who told you this?*

*Have you done the math?*


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, you have way more time then I do, so I'll just let you prove me wrong, you can use math or what ever source you want.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2009)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 02/19/2009 6:34 PM
Bob and all, If you took the time to review the Maryland Model Boiler Code you will see that it is not all that different from the formulas given in the Harris book.

This is on page 6 of that book in the forward written by Edgar T. Westbury.

"It should never be forgoten that even a small boiler. or indead any kind of pressure vessel, is capable of considerable explosive force if it should burst, and may throw missils, in the form of metal fragments, for a great distance; I have witnessed this in deliberate distruction tests of boilers. This is not intended to be alarmist propaganda; boilers are perfictly safe if constructed in the ways recomended in this book, and it is up to model engineers to keep them so."




Jeff, 
Edgar T. Westbury said it for me. You are wrong. Like it or not a small boiler can throw metal fragments.

Dan Rowe


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## linuxhost (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan, 
There are way to many variables to give you an easy formula. 
Besides this is a bit off topic because our little steam engines are only remotely similar to your maritime boilers or the power plant that pays my bills. 
First off we don't have the BTU's to achieve a high saturation point. Thus the dangers of a full blown explosion is greatly reduced. Also our superheat is in name only. Our small boilers can not achieve true superheat with a single copper tube passing through the flame. This also reduces the risk of a full blown explosion even further. 

I have seen two destructive test done on small copper boilers like ours. 
One was fill about half full of water then the entire boiler was heated with a rose bud until the whole boiler was cherry. BTW, the boiler was welded not silver soldered. The most exciting thing that happened was it developed an expanding leak until all of the water was exhausted. Then the copper just melted. 
Now true this boiler was welded not silver soldered. But even using the higher temp silver solders, the solder would have melted long before the copper ruptured. 

The other test was done by I believe AccuCraft on their Ruby boiler. The boiler was over pressurized using compressed air. The boiler expanded in such a way the it looked like a football. It developed small leaks but did not rupture nor explode. This test was done using a cool boiler, but even with a hot one, I feel that the same results would have happened for the above reasons. 

Don't get me wrong, I do think that all boilers that are used in a environment where the public could be at risk, should be certified. This is why most of the currently produced live steam models come with a certificate. But the risk of bodily injury from one of our little boilers is pretty reduced because we don't have the BTU's available to cause them. 
I believe that the main danger from our boilers to the public, is the exposure to scalding hot water in the event of a boiler failure. Not flying shrapnel. 
Even this exposure is significantly reduced by the little amount of water they hold. 
You stand a much greater risk of serious 3rd degree burns from opening your cars radiator when it is hot (which hold gallons of water), then from a rupture of an almost dry boiler (which at most has only 25-50 ml left in it). 

I feel that the main reason for the feds push to get our boilers certified is to keep the happy homemaker from using a soldering iron to build a home made boiler. 


Instead of hashing this subject to death, I think that it be a better use of time for some competent person to actually build a boiler, then have it certified. All along documenting the whole process. 
I for one have no idea how to go about the certificating process. But would love to hear how it is done. 

Doug Bronson


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Here Dan, this will get you started . http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf 
http://www.copper.org/Applications/plumbing/techref/cth/cth_3design_burst.html 
http://www.copper.org/Applications/plumbing/techref/cth/tables/cth_table5.html


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
Why cry wolf....it ain't going to happen "explosion with shrapnel" 


Searching back to prior discussion here are some points made relative to gauge one and boiler safety:

I discovered an article in the U.K. magazine "Model Engineer" that dealt with this subject. The article describe a phenomenon of the physics of an exploding pressure vessel known as Critical Crack Length (CCL.)

CCL is the relationship between the size of a rupture in a pressure vessel and the violence of the release of energy, I.E. the explosion. The article was stating that once a boiler reaches a certain diminutive size the CCL that would be necessary for a catastrophic rupture simply cannot be reached. What does that mean? Simply that a small boiler -- even one on a ride able engine -- will NOT voilently explode. What defines a small boiler? Say 3/4" scale engines or smaller. If a small boiler like the ones on our Ruby's, Shay's and even K-27's has a sudden rupture the resulting release of energy is going to be more along the lines of a sudden loud hiss and a cloud of steam, NOT AN EXPLOSION. Even if you hot rodded your safety to lift at 90 psi our boilers just arent big enough. Dont bother comparing your engines boiler to a pipe bomb. We do not have the ability to generate that much energy as rapidly as is needed explode a boiler of this size.
The boilers in our Accucraft engines are over built. Accucraft tested a Ruby boiler to 250 psi! The outside of the boiler is 2mm copper tube. The flues are 1mm. Even if they do rupture the flue will collapse internally and you will get that loud hiss I mentioned before -- not an explosion.
Ross

To carry the discussion of instantaneous energy release further. You could never get a truly instantaneous release of that energy, it is only by an extreme reach that you could consider it as being totally available in a boiler failure.

To begin with, the most likely failure in our small boilers is the development of a leak, and not a catastrophic failure. Yet, lets consider a catastrophic failure. The amount of energy released in most boiler failures is a function of volume of steam available at the instant of failure, not the volume of water. The steam space in our small boilers is quite small, and even in a major failure, of say a crown sheet that split, you are not going to see the entire water volume flash to steam in the instant of failure, the vast majority of it gets ejected into the unconfined surrounding atmosphere as a liquid, and evaporates there without producing the same explosive force. 

What happens in most failures is that the water level is allowed to drop below the crown sheet, which becomes red hot and when water is either rapidly added or sloshes over the crown sheet the extremely rapid vaporization of water causes the boiler pressure to exceed the structural limits of the over heated crown sheet. Low water means increased steam space, high pressure means high volume of steam. In a full size boiler this can result in a significant release of energy, because of the shear size of the steam space; remember that when you scale something up, lengths increase linearly but volumes increases buy the cube. A boiler scaled twice in size will have 2 cubed, or 8 times the volume. But even with this kind of failure, which is what happened in Ohio a while back, the vast majority of that energy release comes from the explosive release of the steam existing at the moment of failure, not from the un-evaporated water in the boiler at the time of failure.

Torry
I have spoken to someone who has witnessed a small boiler blowout. He described it as a sudden hiss- and that's it. The information in this article supports this account as being the norm (Aussie article). Some might compare the size of our boilers to a pipe bomb, however pipe bombs achieve pressures in excess of 6000 PSI in a fraction of a second. Our boilers are not capable of producing a pressure rush like that.

Secondly, take some time to research state regulations and alert us to requirements. You'll probably come across exemptions such as:
Regulations such as these clarify any requirements:
shall operate a steam generator, similar equipment potentially capable of generating steam having relief devices set over 15 psig. and rated at or developing over 6 boiler horsepower

This subsection shall not apply to any pressure vessels:

Having inside diameter not exceeding 6 inches

Or a club regulation (beyond State)only if: 50 cubic in of volume and 50 PSI 


Just a guess without seeking out all state regulations, the following do not require gauge one boiler testing based on reports by participates at large well publicized events operating gauge one :
PA
NJ
MD
NY
Cal
MS
MI
TX
FLA
OR

CO
Seems as if reasonable minds have explored the possibilities, done the math and determined the safe building standards utilized in gauge one requires no additional regulations


BTW- all the regulations in place are set forth in regards to "public safety." I cannot envision the idiot on Youtube being given the opportunity to do his "private" experiment in a public venture, at least not one that we participate in. As stated before there is just no way to restrict dangerous people from doing dangerous things if they are determined to be idiots.


Dan, are you sure you are not retiring soon and looking for another career in boiler inspections.....


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## GWRdriver (Apr 7, 2008)

Since we now have Tennessee law being quoted it would probably be in order to file a report from the war zone. First let me say that I am in general agreement with Bob Sorenson ("As an editorial opinion, all this boiler code stuff is a bunch of garbage for these tiny sizes.") The only reason I don't fully align myself with Bob on this is that we do have model "codes", that is, established and accepted guidleines, but there are folks who are always looking for the cheapest and quickest shortcuts to be a "live steamer" and they might latch on to such a statement as permission to do whatever they want, an anything-goes approach to model boiler building, and that is most assuredly NOT the case. Please note I used MODEL in my sentence, because this is a model boiler discussion and a model boiler is a completely different animal than a full size power boiler. Also, the ASME code, which has absolutely nothing to do with what we build and has no place in thse discussions, has a section on "Miniature" boilers but these are not OUR miniature boilers so to avoid confusion "model" is a better name. 

Now as for Tennessee, . . . the pertinant portion of our law has been posted and is clear, however the wording of the law and enforcement of the law are two COMPLETELY different things. I've been a member of a club which for maybe 35 years has run 7.5"gauge live steam locomotives of up to 12" boiler diameter on at least a monthly basis in a large city park (also known as the fair grounds.) On public run weekends, which occur monthly by contractual agreement, the club might haul between 2500 and 4500 riders of all ages during summer. At the same time as many as six main activities (band competitions, company picnics, little league baseball, adult softball, regional equestrian events, and general childrens play) can be going on in the immediate vicinity. On one of the most active summer weekends a couple of years ago, with perhaps 12 of the 40 steam locos present in constant operation hauling kids, I spent a few hours on the site with the TN State Boiler Inspector and another staff inspector. 

When asked about what their offical stance on our boiler operation was (and if they wanted to see test our hydro certificates, operations records, accident reports, etc?) their response was, "No we were just in the area, and as long as you guys are satisfied things are OK, we're OK, but this is COOL! Can we bring our kids to ride sometime? In other words . . . they don't care. Let me repeat . . .THEY DON"T CARE. We are off their radar. 

Of course nothing stays the same and there are no guarantees. Next week, next month, next year, they may change their mind. Someone who decided to apply the "I used an old piece of drain pipe and that oughta' hold" approach to model boiler building may put an end to that. 

Now, what they DO care about (we asked!) are (1) commercial power boilers, and (2) old tractor/sawmill boilers, and those only if they are taken off the farm or sawmill and steamed in public. That's it. Everything else, dispite the wording of the TN law, is off their radar. They know we exist, they just don't see us as creating an imminent danger to the general public. We realize that other states enforce their laws differently (but we don't live in another state.) 

When the discussion turns to insurance, what we (some US large scale clubs) have been greatly surprised to learn is the insurance industry doesn't care about boilers either, they only care about rider/passenger liability. When we ask about boiler liability insurance the response is "Oh, we don't care about that . . but what are you doing about passenger safety!?" Boiler liability, at least for many insurors, is off their radar. The reason is apparent to anyone who will look closely, there is no record of boiler injury, NONE, but there is a record of passenger injury and that's what they are worried about and acting upon. So if the insurance industry doesn't see imminent danger why are some of you talking in terms of potential miniature thermo-nuclear devices? Any fool can create a closed vessel and explode it, if anything it proves just how strong a properly designed and constructed ( to our simple "code") model boiler actually can be. To try to demonstrate otherwise does us all a great disservice, and worse may attract the attention of some public safety crusader/alarmist whose attention we do not need. 

The bottom line on all this is that most of us (ie, in most states) in the US have the incredible priviledge of governing ourselves when it comes to model boilers. So far we've done a magnificent job and in the last 18 years, along with the significant increase in numbers, I've seen a significant and encouraging increase in the relative number of people in Ga1 who want to learn how to do it right. Most of us who bother ourselves with these things certainly will do what we can to see it continue, including calling Red-Herring and/or BS when we see it.


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## GWRdriver (Apr 7, 2008)

Let me say that in my own and the opinions of a great number of model engineers and live steamers around the world, inflamatory and sensational terms such as bomb, projectile, shrapnel, and the like have absolutely no place in informed and responsible discussions of model boilers. That kind of talk impresses no one except the uninformed and can only bring us unwanted attention and harm. 

I think that it be a better use of time for some competent person to actually build a boiler, then have it certified. All along documenting the whole process. I for one have no idea how to go about the certificating process. But would love to hear how it is done. - Doug Bronson


Doug, 
In garden gauges the process varies from "none" (and therefore no certification) to stringent and varies from country to country. In the USA you can do whatever you want although in large scales almost every cluib has at least an official test policy, whethjer or not it's enforced is another matter. In England, in very broad and simple terms, a boiler mat be built by a recognized boiler builder or the owner/modeler, of approved marerials, to certain standards of construction, and then given an inspection and hydrostatic test. The hydro test involves filling the boiler completely with water and pressurizing it to 2X its intended working pressure. A commecial model boiler builder will do the testing for the customer and issue a certificate which will then be recognized by their club, or host club, and their insuruors. For the private builder his club boiler inspector will handle the task or if the builder isn't club affiliated a host club will test and certifiy as a courtesy. I believe the process in Australia is similar. I'm sure Andrew or one of our other overseas members will set me right if I've missed something. 

One gets to be (or is saddled with being) a club boiler inspector by having acquired over the years a sound working knowledge of model boilers and their construction, a fundamental understanding of the purpose of the test procedure, the trust and support of their fellow club members, and a calm and even-handed approach to the job. Folks with these abilities and attributes are becoming increasingly difficult to find.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2009)

Posted By GWRdriver on 02/21/2009 7:15 PM

Of course nothing stays the same and there are no guarantees. Next week, next month, next year, they may change their mind. Someone who decided to apply the "I used an old piece of drain pipe and that oughta' hold" approach to model boiler building may put an end to that. 


The bottom line on all this is that most of us (ie, in most states) in the US have the incredible priviledge of governing ourselves when it comes to model boilers. So far we've done a magnificent job and in the last 18 years, along with the significant increase in numbers, I've seen a significant and encouraging increase in the relative number of people in Ga1 who want to learn how to do it right. Most of us who bother ourselves with these things certainly will do what we can to see it continue, including calling Red-Herring and/or BS when we see it.


Thank you Harry,
And for that is what I was trying to say boiler law can and has changed over the years. It is the responsibility of forums like this to inform folks like the gent who started this thread that it is nessary to use a set of rules to design a boiler. I well know as has been stated that a boiler properly designed and built and properly operated will be very safe, but there have been way to many people who take a it looks good to me aproach.

Charles can you give me a refference for the article you cited.

The thing I have said several times is the State code has to be checked. It might have changed and yes I will be at the legislature in Texas if it is changed, so If anyone else has engineering sources for the safety of model copper boilers please list the refference or link the site.

And Harry for the record I do not think that I know enough about model boilers either. As it was already said there are no simple formula for calculating what will happen. So citing a few cases does not cover all the posibilities. 
Dan Rowe


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GWRdriver on 02/21/2009 7:15 PM
Since we now have Tennessee law being quoted it would probably be in order to file a report from the war zone. First let me say that I am in general agreement with Bob Sorenson ("As an editorial opinion, all this boiler code stuff is a bunch of garbage for these tiny sizes.") The only reason I don't fully align myself with Bob on this is that we do have model "codes", that is, established and accepted guidleines, but there are folks who are always looking for the cheapest and quickest shortcuts to be a "live 
.
.

.
.

. 

(to save space) 




Hi Harry: You word things better than I do. We do have codes, lot's of them. Published by very knowledgeable and experience people who devote time and energy to ensure what they write is correct and safe and enriches the hobby. I use their published and proven standards all the time. Real "amateurs" pursue this hobby with greater interest and enthusiasm than many "professionals" pursue their careers. My point is that I don't want to see the gov't getting involved in our small boilers. Gauge 1 does not need Government scrutiny, full stop. Those people in Maryland who ran to the gov't for assistance in establishing a state mandated code are setting themselves up to get shut down. And for people who deliberately try to short-cut, or scrimp on methods and material, well, you can't fix stupid. There is a thing called "personal responsibility". Something rapidly disappearing in our society. 


How's that 2x "Tich" coming along? Have not seen an update in a while.

Bob


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 02/20/2009 5:30 PM
Posted By Dan Rowe on 02/20/2009 3:36 PM
Posted By xo18thfa on 02/20/2009 2:19 PM
I am not going to argue the technical validity of these boiler codes. They are wonderful documents, I love them. My concern is that we "show off" these documents and our hobby heads down a slippery slope to regulation. Many clubs operate in a public forum. Ours does too. We set up in commercial, gov't and community facilities 3 or 4 times a year. We run steam too (over the shear distain of the "sparkies"). The public loves it. We get new members each time we run. I would really hate to see a club get shut out of running in a public place because some snot-nosed "do-gooder" got a hold of one of these documents and made an issue out of it. The liability insurance impact could spill over to the sparkies too.


And what about commercially made boilers? Are you suggesting that some Chinese guy who snifs cadmium all day can make an Accrucraft boiler safer than the ones I make? Do they adhere to any state codes? 


What our hobby needs is trained professionals like Dan highlighting our 99.9999999999999999% successful safety record, rather than some bureaucrat with a state code in hand punishing everyone while trying to fix a .0000000000000000001% problem. 


To the fellow who started this thread, don't be scared off. These debates happen all the time. Build your boiler and have fun. Learn from your first attempt and build the next even better. If you get stumped ask for help. Lots of guys here in MLS have "been there, done that". I would just reiterate getting one of Kozo Hiraoka's books to go along with Harris.


Bob





Bob, The reason Maryland has a model boiler code is because a state boiler inspector came across some live steamers and asked what they were doing. The state of Maryland worked with the live steam community to set a safe set of rules for public safety. http://www.calslivesteam.org/

If you think the "fees" charged for this service to the public come anywhere close to the actual cost of the service to the public you are sadly mistaken.
My Wife is a regulator for the State of Texas and makes sure that the drinking water is safe for the citizens of this country. Most of the people in this line of work get very little in the way of pay or recognition for the work they do.

Yes the hobby has a very good safety record, but ignoring the facts will not improve that record. The Case 110 explosion in Medina OH in the summer of 2001 took 3 lives. You might be saying sure but what does that have to do with the small scale hobby. Well the boiler laws in Ohio and all the midwest were affected by the tragedy, and that affects boilers of ANY size. The boiler laws are fluid and can be changed to address the concerns of citizens for the better or the worse, but turning a blind eye to them will not make them go away. 
I am not trying to use scare any one away from the hobby, but I strongly believe that information is the way to keep the hobby safe. I have done my best to present the facts about United States Boiler Law to the forum.
Dan Rowe







Dan: Come on, be for real here. The boiler explosion in Ohio was not a Gauge 1 boiler. That was a full size Case tractor, one of the bigger ones Case made. It was a 100 year old antique, year model 1909 I think. The crown sheet and stays were 20% rusted away. The owner tried to patch leaking holes with chalking compound (for pete's sake). They ran it out of water and exposed the top crown to full heat. The pressure gauge was tested and found to be faulty. It was reading 25 PSI under actual pressure. The safety valve was sticky. The fusible plug was found still intact. It was operated at an unsafe pressure by guys who did not know what they were doing. I think the accident report said that boiler was capable of 47 PSI, not the 125 PSI it was originally designed for. No one knows what the crew was running it at since they all got killed. Yes. That boiler should have gotten inspected and condemned. The crew should have evaluated too, I am sure they would been de-certified in an instant.

Ohio is not realitic. Find a documented example of a Gauge 1 boiler that blew up and killed 3 people and you have an arguement. 


As for state regulators, what would they solve? If a state certified boiler was involved in accident, do you think the state would take any responsibility? Absolutely no way. The state would never be held accountable for a problem. The owner of the boiler or the club (follow the money) would get sued. For our hobby purposes, an experienced boiler inspector from a live steam railroad club would make far better inspector than anyone the state could come up with. He would have a vested interest in doing the job correctly. Clubs can police thier own just fine.





Dan: I am still waiting for your documented example of a Gauge 1 boiler explosion that killed somebody


Bob


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

When I first read Bills query about building a boiler I realized from what Bill had written, that Bill needed to start from basics. I recommended the only useful text I know of on boilermaking that includes basic information on designing and building a model boiler. I assumed a few others would add some useful information sources. I was hoping that Bill would get K. N. Harris's book, learn, ask some questions, and build his model.[/b]
The exchange of words that followed seems to me to be of little use to Bill or anyone else.

I am concerned with boiler safety because even a small incident can spoil someones day and hurt the hobby.

Boiler code really doesn't have much bearing on our hobby until after an incident if the lawyers get involved. Code enforcement is non-existent or pretty lax in most places

One recommendation I read in this thread, though correct to a degree, wasn't a wise one to make to a beginner. Be careful what you recommend to a raw beginner when it comes to making a model boiler unless you know him and his capabilities very well.

It would be nice to read some more positive and useful[/b] discussion on the subject of boilermaking. It would be nice to see some pictures of boilers you have made or are making. What problems have you run into in building a boiler and how did you solve them? How about some information on how you designed your boiler?

Jack Mc Kie


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jack - Freshwater Models on 02/22/2009 6:16 AM


When I first read Bills query about building a boiler I realized from what Bill had written, that Bill needed to start from basics. I recommended the only useful text I know of on boilermaking that includes basic information on designing and building a model boiler. I assumed a few others would add some useful information sources. I was hoping that Bill would get K. N. Harris's book, learn, ask some questions, and build his model.[/b]
The exchange of words that followed seems to me to be of little use to Bill or anyone else.

I am concerned with boiler safety because even a small incident can spoil someones day and hurt the hobby.

Boiler code really doesn't have much bearing on our hobby until after an incident if the lawyers get involved. Code enforcement is non-existent or pretty lax in most places

One recommendation I read in this thread, though correct to a degree, wasn't a wise one to make to a beginner. Be careful what you recommend to a raw beginner when it comes to making a model boiler unless you know him and his capabilities very well.

It would be nice to read some more positive and useful[/b] discussion on the subject of boilermaking. It would be nice to see some pictures of boilers you have made or are making. What problems have you run into in building a boiler and how did you solve them? How about some information on how you designed your boiler?

Jack Mc Kie






I agree with you, except for one thing. Yes, these discussions always devolve into personality conflicts... dunno why, but they always do. Yet, there is some, SOME, useful information conveyed... not necessarily in the words said, but the concerns expressed. The concerns are valid on both sides... though sometimes poorly expressed.

Sure, anybody with a modicum of education SHOULD know that a boiler is dangerous... not necessarily explosive, but steam/hot water burns and fire (fuel) burns. They are not "toys" to be "played with", anymore than an oven used to bake chocolate chip cookies... but that doesn't mean one cannot enjoy the fruits of "playing" with them. Yet, folk get burned on the oven door and sometimes someone that should know better might grab a hot boiler with bare hands or remove a fill plug while the boiler is still hot or maybe decide that a torch played on the side of the boiler will speed up the raising of steam or is a substitute for a proper fire.

Yet, there are folk out there that do not have enough intelligence to express publicly, "Hey I am thinking building a boiler, anybody got any words o' wisdom?" Instead they proceed to obtain a tin can or pop bottle, fill it with water and aim a rosebud torch at it. I have seen more than just that one video of a water filled vessel bursting from steam pressure. Thankfully, the others have shown the "perpetrators" standing well back from the experiment when it went awry.

I do think that something positive and useful comes from these "steamy, pressurized" (pun intended) discussions because there are those that read them that have not thought to ask the questions and maybe will be given pause about whether they ought to shut that torch off for a few minutes and investigate a bit further into the concerns expressed here and what they are doing.

Those that say we are all intelligent people are just plain WRONG. Yes, those that take the time to read and discuss this are a whole lot more intelligent than those that wander off and build a boiler from a CO2 cartridge or play a propane torch on a copper barrel without regard for the danger that fire and pressure exposes them to. 

But those on each side of this discussion that are demanding proof from the other side... provide your own proof first. I don't trust your say-so any more than you seem to trust anyone else's.

If you say a miniature boiler can blow up, prove it!
If you say a miniature boiler cannot blow up, prove it!

I don't care if you use math or video, prove it!

I have read and seen the photos of a hydrostatic failure with a non-dynamic pressure (the Australian tests) but it leaves unanswered the result if it were a dynamic pressure (steam).
I linked to the video of a propane torch aimed at a totally unknown vessel causing a violent release of steam, but it leaves unanswered as to what actually happened and why.
I have seen a video of using a CO2 cartridge for a flash boiler and the cartridge exploding (violent enough to have injured someone standing close).
I have read (here on MLS) the result of someone aiming a torch at a small vessel that they thought had water in it, but was dry and it burst in an unspectacular fashion.
I have seen the result of using the wrong solder (could have seriously scalded someone too close).
I have seen the result of someone removing the fill valve while the boiler is under pressure!

"*I[/i]*" have enough proof for "*ME[/i]*" that these discussions are more than worthwhile, even if only as reminders to "*US[/i]*" that care must be taken.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 02/21/2009 7:13 PM

Searching back to prior discussion here are some points made relative to gauge one and boiler safety:

I discovered an article in the U.K. magazine "Model Engineer" that dealt with this subject. The article describe a phenomenon of the physics of an exploding pressure vessel known as Critical Crack Length (CCL.)

Charles,
I have tried to find the article and can not locate it. Do you have a link or a publication date?
I read a bunch about this but none of the information is pertaining to copper boilers.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

Henner might know which issue of Model Engineer it was.  He has most back issues and I read that very article at his house.  


The gist of it boiled down to two important factors (excuse the pun ) that don't add up to any danger.  The first factor is potential energy in the form of expanding steam and the second is surface area that can rupture or "critical crack length" as they called it.  Both are very small in Gauge 1 and smaller ride-ons.  So small that, as the article stated, you simply can't get a catastrophic  or explosive failure from a boiler in the size range of a gauge 1 boiler.


By the rational of that article, comparing our  little steamers to the threat posed by the improperly maintained boiler on the full size Case 110 steam tractor in OH is just a bit absurd.


I am a responsible operator and scratch builder and this article, whether you choose to believe it or not, gave me all the data I needed to know that our boilers are essentially safe.  I have yet to see anybody produce any evidence that would tell me otherwise.  I'm sorry to say that I don't consider an unsubstantiated youtube video to be persuasive evidence.  I mean really, we don't have any idea what really happened in that video except in one frame there is a hokey looking boiler and burner set up and the next frame it's gone.


Back to the workshop...


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

*Dan Rowe you just lost me!.*










*Attitude Joung Man,*


*Attitude.*










*The is a Family Forum, Not an Navel Engineering School!.*










*I`ve been to one also, and I can still learn from The Back Alley School of Hard Knocks.*










*as well as enjoy the Chuckles from all and sundry that post here!.*










Mr Moderater If you require my resignation?, your welcome to it!!.










*Disappointed.*


*John.*


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

*If you wish a full set of plans please give me an Email address I can send them too!.*


*John.*


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

*Gentlemen!, *










Why dont you obtain a copy of Our Australian Boiler Codes Gauge1 included,?, these are 


supposed to be the most Officoius Boiler Code World Wide!!


We build from these and I`ve heard of no problems so far!.


There are possibly things we can teach you!.













John.


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a good set of plans on the Home Model Engine Machinist website for a 3.0" dia Vertical Boiler(5 pages) and a burner(1 page) 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat1 
I have not built this model (yet), but the designer did sell them comercially at one time. if you followed this design and hydrotest to 2X pressure you should have no problems. the working pressure is 90psi. Another good source of information after the MODEL BOILERS AND BOILER MAKING by K. N. Harris is the Books By Kozo Hiraoka 
Regards, 
Gerald


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr Moderater If you require my resignation?, your welcome to it!!.
Why would we want that? You've not crossed an lines.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap'n

I have some experience to build a vertical boiler specifically to run a Graham VR1A engine. Learned a lot and found that both boiler design and the Graham engine needed some work. The boiler and Graham were installed in a 4-2-0 chain drive locomotive.

I based the boiler design on the Midwest Products Model VI boiler kit. This is the original unit specified for the BAGRS project loco. It has a single 1/2" pipe center flue and a shell made from a 2-inch length of 2" diameter copper pipe. (Look at this link: http://www.midwestproducts.com/item_detail.asp?item_id=108) I had built this kit a while back and fired it with two alcohol wick burners to run an oscillator with a total cylinder volume of 0.062 cubic inches (twice the Midwest Model VI oscillator). Since the Graham VR1A's volume is four times that (0.242 cubic inches) it was a gamble that the boiler would produce enough steam but I did the experiment anyway.

I copied the Midwest boiler concept but lengthened the shell to 2 and 5/8th inches to increase the water capacity, and added a safety valve and a regulator valve. Firing was with two alcohol wicks and a chicken feeder fuel supply, and the bottom of the firebox was open (mistake! see comments further on). I also added a simple lubricator between the boiler and the Graham. 
Steaming was completely inadequate. Many, many experiments were done with boiler insulation, superheaters, blowers, etc. to try to make the engine go. Finally everything was debugged, and the locomotive turned into a decent puller limited by track adhesion (only two driving wheels) instead of by power. The single center flue provides adequate convection draft so that a blower is not required.

The fixes were as follows:
[*] Make sure the wicks have enough fuel: I needed to raise fuel level in burner assembly
[*] Make sure wicks are porous enough so that vapor lock in the fuel supply lines doesn't cut off the fuel supply
[*] Cover the bottom of the firebox to keep cold air from being pulled up into the flue by the convection draft. Leave SMALL openings for air for the fire.
[*] Added 5 quills to the bottom of the boiler to carry heat up into the water space
[*] Ran steam line from regulator down into the firebox, around the inside of the firebox, and out to the lubricator/engine. This provides some "superheat" (really steam drying).
[*] Added "packing" under the Graham piston o-ring to improve seal between the o-ring and the cylinder wall. Without this there was complete blow by past the piston. See below.
[/list] The Graham piston was found to have an o-ring groove cut 0.072" deep, so that the nominal 1/16" thick o-ring (0.0625") was not compressed between the piston and the cylinder wall. Once a new o-ring got worn down a little it lost it's ability to seal. This is not apparent when running the Graham on low pressure air from a compressor, because the volume of the available air from a compressor is huge compared to the steam output of a small boiler. The fix was to cut a narrow strip from the edge of a U.S. dollar bill, wrap the strip inside the o-ring groove to build up its diameter, and then install a new o-ring. A little experimentation is necessary but no more than a couple of wraps should be necessary. You can still spend the dollar. After this fix my Graham has run for hours under steam with no problems.

Steve


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Great info, thanks! I have only run the Graham engine on compressed air, and not long enough to thouroughly break-in. I am using a 3" copper pipe(2 7/8" ID) about 8"hi. I have a 3/4" size flue and planned on just a single pipe. Waiting on some fittings and copper plate to put the boiler together. Being new at this, I have to look up a "regulator"-I don't know what it is, or does, exactly. Your comments have already suggested some design changes on my part! Bill


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap'n, 

For "regulator" valve think "throttle", as on a car.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Got a pic, or a reference, or who sells them. I understand the concept, but don't think I've seen one in the various suppliers' websites, maybe I just wasn't paying attention.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

>>The Graham piston was found to have an o-ring groove cut 0.072" deep, so that the nominal 1/16" thick o-ring (0.0625") was not compressed between the piston and the cylinder wall. 

A 1/16" (nom) 0-ring is hardly ever .0625", except by accident. The industry specification allows them to vary between .067" and .073" and the last batch I miked were .072" An 0-ring doesn't need to be squashed against the cylinder wall (or the groove walls) to work, all that's required is that it touch and the steam be given a look at the back side of the ring and pressure will force the ring to seal against the cylinder wall. Gayle Graham didn't work this entire engine out on Cad-CNC only to pull an 0-ring groove dimension out of his . . umm . . hat. IMHO the groove dimension is not the culprit and a garden variety 0-ring should have a very long life working in those cylinders. Perhaps it's just that Lucas oil not doing its job? 

Another thing (among the many) that would improve a Midwest boiler re-make (nothing will improve the orginal short of backing over it with the SUV) is to add cross-tiubes or at the least porky-pine cross rods to the center flue. I typically use cross-tubes when those will imporve matters because they add something to the internal volume, but anything to scavenge heat and transfer it to the water is an improvement. The quills Steve has used serve the same purpose.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Why is it, with this group, that as soon as someone says I had this problem and this is what fixed it, an 'expert' arrives to insist that he's all wrong. 
This isn't the case on the other groups I visit, though one is having a spam problem. 
Frankly, I prefer the spam. 

Back to the shop. 
Harvey C.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

Harvey, 
I didn't question Steve's repair, or his success, or otherwise make any insulting personal remarks as has been done recently, but he posted two pieces of information which were incorrect in implication if not in fact. One was that a 1/16" 0-ring is .0625" and it is NOT, no 0-ring is ever its nominal size except by accident. The other implied that the groove for a 1/16" (nom) 0-ring should be be .0625" deep, and it shouldn't be that either. I felt that to allow this information to go uncommented upon could cause someone who is struggling already to make the cylinders go hit yet another hidden snag and have no idea what might be causing a problem. If you want to know exactly how to install and use an 0-ring most experts I know (those snooty know-it-all bastards) rely upon the Parker O-ring Handbook for the best information, available at www.parker.com/literature/ORD 5700 Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Harvey, I think it is with good intention on both sides. The first person posts what they believe is good information and the next one posts another option, method or product, sometimes backing up what they believe is right and/ or discrediting the others view. Some times one claims to be an expert, some are perceived as, some actually are. Sometimes some of us are just poking a little fun, or "stirring the pot" 
I think all of the above was applied to this thread at one point or another.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting!

I am unable to get the handbook link to work (hangs my computer on a semi permanent basis... i.e.: I have to jerk its little AC power cord outta da wall!







) so I cannot comment on what it says... maybe it would give some clue as to why the nominal thickness specified for an o-ring does not match the nomenclature given to the ring... e.g.: 1/16= 0.0625... the people that make these specs up must be trying to make up for the folk that write new automobile gas mileage ratings. Gee, if it gets 6.25 MPG they say it is 7.2 MPG; so if an o-ring measures 0.072 then we will claim it is 0.0625 and call it a 1/16th.

I suppose there may be some rhyme and reason for that, but if I'd been sent to the parts bin to get a 1/16 o-ring I would have mic'd every last one of them and tossed them all one at a time into the "re-file bin" as having been stowed in the wrong place and had the parts coordinator order more.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't know the answer to that question. Perhaps they farmed the job out to the same folks who developed the dimensions of US pipe sizes? 

Just type in Parker O-ring handbook and it will take you right to it.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

CT

Try this

*http://www.parker.com/literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf*


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, but I managed to get it to download last night after trying several times and as is typical of all cornpewter operations I did nothing special and made no changes to my PC setup to get it to actually load so I could read the PDF file. 

Unfortunately, after I had read the first 20 or 30 pages of the 292 page dorkument my brain locked up on a semi permanent basis and I had to jerk "MY" AC power cord outta da wall to gain control of my faculties again.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

It should be noted that when using a manufacturers spec sheet for fitting "O" rings the data is normally correct for high pressure hydraulic applications and rings fitted in our small locomotive cylinders to these tolerances will be tight , in practice the tolerances can be relaxed substantially without any leakage occuring.


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## mudhen103 (Mar 2, 2009)

Well gents that Parker catalog is a prety fancy book to find the answer of does an o-ring needs squeeze or not. A quick flip through the pages convinced me that Audel Mechanical Trades Pocket Manual is correct in stating that the o-ring is a squeze-type of packing. Some applications use presure seal as described by Old Boy but as a mechanic I have never seen one.

The sizes are intentionaly made 10% over size and the amount of squeeze needed for an application can be found in the Parker cat. The factors that have to be looked at to determine the amount of squeeze are pressure and expected service life. Other things to consider are the smoothness of the cylinder but even though that might seam obvious it is covered in the Parker cat.
John


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill: Back to vertical boiler ideas. Here's one. You can convert the 89mm barrel to 3" and you'll be fine


http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/verticalboiler.jpg

Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

That's a clever looking design, Bob. Thanks for posting it, I'll print it out and see how it scales. Bill


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cap'nBill on 03/02/2009 3:14 PM
That's a clever looking design, Bob. Thanks for posting it, I'll print it out and see how it scales. Bill 

I think a 2" copper coupler would work great for the fire box. Alcohol firing would work good for this design. 

Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

After studying the drawing for a bit, I'm thinking a 2" x 3/4" copper reducing fitting would be the easiest. Put the cross tubes through the lower portion and make a 'washer' for the bottom. One of the fellows offered a couple pieces of copper plate for the flanges/end plate, which I am awaiting. The reducer would alleviate one joint and I think would function okay. I noticed the other day, Lowe's has some, but I forget what was the largest size they had on hand. Got my PM Research fittings, guage, etc., today, so I'm almost ready to crank up my torch. Got some good info from the 'silver soldering' pages, thanks!Bill


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

It might be a good idea to fit all the boiler "insides" together, and before soldering them, give it a test firing. Just to make sure the fire drafts thru without restrictions. 

Coming together nicely.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking of fittings: last weekend we tried to solder a boiler using elbows from the Home Depot. Everything was clean and fluxed, but for some reason the elbow would not take any silver solder. We have never seen this before. Is there some strange coating which acts as a flux for soft solder? 
Regards


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By HMeinhold on 03/04/2009 6:30 PM
Speaking of fittings: last weekend we tried to solder a boiler using elbows from the Home Depot. Everything was clean and fluxed, but for some reason the elbow would not take any silver solder. We have never seen this before. Is there some strange coating which acts as a flux for soft solder? 
Regards 


Hi Henner: I would not be surprised if they put some stupid lacquer coating on them so they stay nice and shiny longer on the shelf. Probably have to wire brush them now.


Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Got my copper plate yesterday and decided to get started making the discs for the end caps. There are probably a number of ways to do this, but I concocted this idea: I rough cut the piece out on my band saw, drilled a 5/16th's hole in the center and silver soldered the plate on a 5/16th's rod( just happened to have this on hand), chucked it in the lathe and started cutting. I brushed it fairly often with some oil to keep it from chattering. The plate is heavy enough to not flex very much. If I were going to do this often, I think a disc of plywood behind the plate-and against the chuck- would work better. Next is to get a reducer and rough out the bottom and scribe the inner cut to make a 'washer' type ring. I agree, Bob, I think I'll try to solder the 'washer'-bottom end cap- to the reducer first, and do the cross tubes. Since I have 1/4" tube on hand, I'm thinking this should be adequate for cross tubes. What do you think? Bill


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill: When you silver solder copper, it will end up very soft. Unless it is like 1/4" thick there is a risk it will buckle even under the lightest cuts. This techinques works very well:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/Front%20Tube%20Plate%201.JPG

Use a block of wood with #8 sheet metal screws. Grip to the wood thru bushing holes and the large hole for the firebox. The wood will provide rigid support over the entire plate.

Bob


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

One more tip, which I have not seen published and which I got to learn the hard way: Make sure the edges of the plates are slightly beveled. If there is any ridge left from machining, the silver solder won't flow.
Regards


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 02/21/2009 7:13 PM Searching back to prior discussion here are some points made relative to gauge one and boiler safety:
I discovered an article in the U.K. magazine "Model Engineer" that dealt with this subject. The article describe a phenomenon of the physics of an exploding pressure vessel known as Critical Crack Length (CCL.)





I ordered all 3 sections of the boiler code written by Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee (AMCSC) and they are on the way to me.

I am searching for more information about small boilers from all sources.

I checked here for the article quoted and I had no luck. http://www.itech.net.au/modelengineer/

I have asked on other forums with no response. If one of the gentleman who mentioned this article or someone else could supply me with a reference to find the article, then I can order a back issue so I can read the article for myself.

Thank you in advance for the help locating the article.
Dan Rowe


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 02/19/2009 7:03 PM
I began to believe the comments about small boilers not exploding... then I saw this.



Granted I cannot tell from the video how the boiler was constructed or exactly what ruptured, but it does point out that even small boilers are not something to be triffled with.

The person that posted this has not responded to repeated requests for more info about what happned. 





I dont know if this has been discussed already in this thread..
but IMO an obvious factor in the failure of that setup is WAY TOO MUCH heat applied far too quickly..
a blow-torch should not be used to heat up a small boiler!
the excess heat could have caused fittings on the side of the boiler to melt and fail..

If thats the case, the "explosion" in that video is due to operator stupidity..
the setup is probably perfectly fine, and perfectly safe, if used properly..

Scot


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Something I've not seen mentioned yet about silver soldering/brazing is that there should be a small gap between the parts being soldered/brazed. Many center-punch one piece on the side opposite the joint so the extrusion on the other side holds the part away from the part it's being soldered to. The soldering/brazing agent needs to be able to flow between the parts and fill the gap for a good solid joint.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

I've done a lot of silver soldering and never worried about having a gap. I have always seen solder flow through. If you have about 1-3thou that's all thats needed! Generally that's the case even when your trying for a close fit. Also remember depending on how you heat one part will expand more then the other until the heat is equalized. 

Oh ya, I should mention that as kids in the '60s a friend and I built small boilers that were merely soft soldered and worked fine! The larger ones were mechanically fastened and soldered as in cualked. I wouldn't reccomend it but it works for low pressures. 

Jack


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack*,* I agree as long as it is not a press fit







...
Regards


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had joints fail if the fit was too tight (not on boilers mind you). Now I make sure there's a small gap. Like you said Jack, it needn't be more than a few thousandths, but too tight of a fit has resulted in low joint strength for me.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

The specifications for copper joints to be silver soldered can be found here:


*http://www.copper.org/Applications/plumbing/techref/procedure/solder_proced_specs.pdf*

*JOINT DESIGN AND TOLERANCES*
Joint type shall be socket/lap (see *Figure 1*). The minimum and maximum joint
clearance/capillary space shall be 0.002” to 0.010”. Lap (overlap) shall meet the
dimensional requirements of the latest revisions of ASME/ANSI B16.22 _Wrought
Copper and Copper Alloy Solder Joint Pressure Fittings _or MSS SP-104 _Manufacturers
Standardization Society, Wrought Copper Solder Joint Pressure Fittings.
_


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack: How are you going to fit the ends? Are they going inside the boiler barrel or butt fit on the end? Butt fit is easier because you can leave it oversized, solder it on, then trim excess by sanding or hand file.

Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, I got my discs turned so as to be a slip fit inside the copper pipe. Got out the ole Mapp gas torch and couldn't get enough heat to get the solder to flow. Guess my 3" diam x 10" 'L' pipe is so big it's absorbing and dissapating the heat. Trying to figure what to do next. Thinking of sticking the thing in a charcoal grill to heat the tube enough where the torch will work. Anyone have any suggestions? Never had the Mapp gas fail....but this is a big chunk of copper! Bill


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cap'nBill on 03/15/2009 3:17 PM
Well, I got my discs turned so as to be a slip fit inside the copper pipe. Got out the ole Mapp gas torch and couldn't get enough heat to get the solder to flow. Guess my 3" diam x 10" 'L' pipe is so big it's absorbing and dissapating the heat. Trying to figure what to do next. Thinking of sticking the thing in a charcoal grill to heat the tube enough where the torch will work. Anyone have any suggestions? Never had the Mapp gas fail....but this is a big chunk of copper! Bill 

Bill,
I think we have all gone through this experience. You need a lot of heat to silver solder even a small boiler. I finally bit the bullet and bought the Sievert outfit recommended by Kozo and others and since then boiler making is just plain fun! BTW, I would not go the route with charcoal etc.

Regards


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I tried again and finally got enough heat concentrated to get the solder to flow......of course, I'll have to buy some more Mapp bottles! I'll have to look into the Sievert torches, I do enough of this stuff to warrant it. I just got the Kozo's 'Shay', and it was well worth the investment. Learned a bunch of stuff just flipping through. I must agree with many previous recommendations, his stuff is worth the purchase, even if you just do some machine work.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap'n,

I haven't tried anything as large as 3" dia by 10" long, but I have had success with MAPP gas by stacking firebricks closely around the boiler being silver soldered, and using a second propane torch to provide constant heating of the boiler at a little distance from the area being worked on. Back in November (I think) I posted on this forum a couple of photos of my setup in a thread about building a coal-fired boiler. A couple of times I got hasty and didn't let the propane torch take the time to do its job. Then it was a struggle with the MAPP torch. If I let the propane heat the boiler for a while, and was intelligent about using the firebricks to enclose the work and contain the heat, then the amount of time necessary to apply the MAPP gas was very short. One of these days, though, I wouldn't mind getting a more powerful torch. 
Steve


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Henner, 
For those of use who don't have the Kozo books yet what is "the Sievert outfit recommended by Kozo and others"? 
Regards, 
Gerald.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Also, does anyone have a source for Sievert, the manufacturer doesn't appear to list vendors. 

Harvey C.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Gerald, Harvey, 
the Sievert torches are available here: 

https://vault1.secured-url.com/reeves2000/shop_item.asp?sub_cat_id=292 

I bought mine from: 

http://www.sssmodels.com/ 

but they seem to be mostly out of business. They might however have some torches still in stock. I bought the biggest one and a smaller one with a swirl action to get into fireboxes etc. (I am at work right now, so I don't know which torches I own). If you buy an American equivalent, try to get one with a high thermal output (BTU) but fairly low temperature. BTW I use the big torch even for smaller stuff like gas tanks, as you can always throttle down and the quick heat-up time prevents the flux from losing its bite.
Regards


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Maybe soft solders are different, but from 25 years hard soldering silver solders; the bigger the gap the weaker the joint. Too little torch can be very frustrating, but then again my micro torches can do most of the jobs my larger ones do.... 

I use oxy/acetylene, the gas is non-toxic and burns very clean with oxygen. Remember the solder will flow to the heat, so you can use your torch to direct the solder, heat from opposit side as solder, so you don't burn off the flux. If you need to torch the solder, your work isn't hot enough. 
Make a solder pick, a 4" piece of coathanger wire, grind one end to a point and stick the other in a short piece of dowel. If your solder balls up and floats on the flux, use the pick to force it down to the metal, you can also push solder to the joint to begin the flow, once started rely on the torch to guide the solder. 

When soldering two different thicknesses heat the heavier piece, the lighter will get it's heat from the other. Tin both parts first, then add a small bead of solder to help the flow along the seam. A small fillet is stronger than a big one, soft solder isn't very strong 

Though I've not made a boiler, I would use hard silver solder (70% silver) it's stronger and sets at a higher temp and thus the work can be cold quenched and hardened. 

The best joints are achieved with clean surfaces, many use the flux to clean the metal and impurities can get in the solder. Instead manually clean the metal and use the flux to keep it clean, file, scrape any burrs off. I use a three sided scraper to clean holes (found at jewelry supply stores). For non-electrical joints, I'd use Handy's flux, will keep the metal clean at higher temps. 

There are micro torch sets that can fit under your desk, cart mounted, 2 bottles of gas, hose and torch handle and 3 -7 tips depending on the set up. They are proffesional grade and will last a lifetime, but I can guarantee that you will get better results than using plumbers gear.... 
John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I looked at the Sievert link and based on limited knowledge of exchange rates I think it's gonna be expensive. I've attached a link for Little Torches, the micro torches I posted about earlier. With these torches you don't need to heat the whole piece, I had a boss show me he could hold a gold ring in his hands and solder the ring closed. He worked fast mind you, but he did get a good joint before the heat travelled to his fingers, the point is you can generate high heat and keep it localised. 
Too little torch will cause more problems than too big. I bet more guys give up because of that. Only the hardest of hard solders are near melting points, 3 common grades of hard solder are; easy, medium and hard. The different melt temps allow you to solder some parts with med and then add more with easy and not disturb the first solders. 

Note not all fluxes react well with flame, many will burn off. 


John 


http://www.alpha-supply.com/_search.php?page=1&q=little+torch


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## k5pat (Jan 18, 2008)

http://cgi.ebay.com/SIEVERT-PROPANE...temQQimsxZ20090313?IMSfp=TL090313131005r10306
Here is a nice Sievert torch on Ebay: 


Sievert Torch


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

>>Though I've not made a boiler, I would use hard silver solder (70% silver) it's stronger and sets at a higher temp and thus the work can be cold quenched and hardened. 

This is an instance where what's good in one type of work isn't necessarily so good in another. Nothing gets or needs "hardening" during boiler building. Heating and quenching anneals the copper and does nothing to the solder although a silver-soldered boiler shouldn't be unceremoniously plunged red hot into a quench. That's just asking for trouble, wait until after all luminecense has disappeared but there is still plenty of heat to make steam. The quench does only two things . . . it cools the boiler so that work can resume quickly, and the thermal shock of quenching will blast away almost all of the copper oxide and flux crust created during soldering and leave much less crud for the pickle to remove. Otherwise there will be no difference if copper is quenched or just be left to cool in the air. 45% silver solder is the standard for model boilers and will be stronger by a factor of two than the parent metal. I have heard of a few people who use 56%, and a few use cadmium-bearing solders, but the strength is the same for these two. The performance of 70% will probably be indistinguishable from 45% solder except that it will be harder to find for the average builder and cost more.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

Totalwrecker I am confused by you description of silver soldering , what do you mean by "tin the joint first" surely this practice is strictly for soft soldering and as far as I know nobody uses soft solder for boilers anymore. I prefer a cadmium bearing silver solder, it seems to flow much better than non-cadmium and regardless of the health regulations I will use it as long as I can still get it, just dont overheat it , which is no good for silver soldering anyway , and have good ventilation.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks,Henner 
A further google search turned up Sievert Torches in Michigan. 
Before all I found were roofing torches from US suppliers. 

Harvey C.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill: I recommend the Seivert torch for the kind of work you are doing. You need a large volume of (comparitively) low temperature to silver solder these kind of thinner copper plates. For a 3" copper pipe a #2943 tip will do fine. The #2942 may be on the light side, although I've done 2.5" copper pipe with it just fine. The #2944 is a volcano.

I strongly recommend against oxy/acetylene for these small boilers. That flame is way too hot and way too small. It's a 5400 degree flame, smaller in diameter than a pencil. Unless you are extremely skilled with it, you run the very high risk of burning holes in the copper. I've seen it done. The thin copper we use gets hot, but does not stay hot very long. The heat dissipates quickly. That's why you need lower temps and larger volumes of heat. The wider the tip at a lower setting is better. Another thing is that the flux burns off at 1400 degrees. If you use oxy/acetylene you risk burning the flux before that part gets hot enough to melt the solder. You need just enough heat to melt the solder and make it flow. No more.

The hardest skill to master is soldering parts of different size. Putting more heat on the bigger part. That's learned by doing it.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

It's going OK with the Mapp gas, I heat the large parts first and keep the heat concentrated on the larger piece(s). The reducer coupler will be the inside of the boiler with the 'chimney' soldered in..it's 3/4". The 5/16th's steel rod allowed me to take a rough cut disc and turn it on my small lathe. I'll now chuck the chimney in my lathe and remove the center. This is kind of a variation of your design above, Bob. The 'reducer' assembly is a slip fit and will go about 2" inside the 3" outside. I'm debating whether I need the cross tubes to maintain NMT 30 psi, the limit of my Graham.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill: It's looking good. MAPP is a powerful fuel. Looks like you have cracked the code. I would put the cross tubes in. One or two. It is easier to throttle back on the steam then try to generate more.

Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I yield to experience! Once I cut the center section out-that with the rod-it's no problem to drill through the reducer and add 'X'tubes. Since this is the thinest part, it shouldn't disturb the other joints. I have some tube on hand. Guess it's better to do it for maximum heat, I may want to add a bigger engine later.......then it would be too late! Next it's drill and add the bushings. Bill


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

You have soldered the bigger parts first, so it is not likely you will have anything fall apart during the re-heat for the cross tubes. It's coming great.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, 

A couple of notes: 

1. Be careful about chucking the chimney in the lathe. It's now annealed, very soft, and easy to squash in the chuck. 
2. The circular plate is also very soft. While trying to cut it out the lathe bit might grab the soft copper and twist the assembly into a pretzel. Happens quicker than you would think! Think about an alternative way to cut it out. Drilling around a circle and then a half-round file? 
3. Drill the bushing holes before soldering in the reducer and chimney so there's clearance for the drill bit. 

Steve


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

Boiler making and precision workshop tools don't always co-exist peacefully. In order to preserve your tools, I advise you to thoroughly pickle, wash, neutralize (with soda), and then oil the parts (WD40 will do) before you let them touch a lathe chuck or drill press or any other bright machine tool surface or you'll come back in and day or two and find a deep rust anywhere a fluxed and soldered surface touched. If you touch a bright machine tool surface with your hands after handling solder and flux or fluxed and soldered pieces, in a few days you will find finger and hand prints anywhere you touched. If you use a tap in a bushing which has not been thoroughly cleaned of flux, washed, neutralized, and oiled, the tap crests will rust within a few days. Even so I still dunk my taps in a jar of oil after using them in even a thoroughly neutralized boiler. I lost a few precious taps to rust before I realized what was causing it.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's a trick to get solder into a joint that you can't reach, pre tinning has it where you want it when you apply the heat. When the solder melts together it pulls the joint tighter (applying soft pressure helps too).

You can use tricks from one type to another.

When I was mass producing silver bezels on silver sheet for cabashons I would tin the sheet (where each bezel would be soldered, not the whole sheet), place the soldered bezels on top and heat from below, the solder would melt and transfer enough heat to the thin bezel for a solid joint. 20ga sheet, 28 ga bezel... note with heat from above the bezels tended to melt before the solder, of course in silversmithing the tolerances are closer, ie; melting points

You can get away from cadmium with a better flux, one designed to work with open flame vs. an iron. Also use a solder pick if the solder floats on the flux as a bead. Push it to the hot metal and it will flow to the heat.

I like Handy Flux for all my non silver(jewelry) soldering, it keeps the metal clean and has good flow ability.

Overheating will harm all solders. The softer alloys are always the first to go.

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sure if you set it to run at full speed and hold it close, yeah oxy/acet can melt most anything...

BUT a gas rich flame held farther away can do just fine, the rosebud tip can heat the whole boiler... never hurts to know your tools. I like the speed.

Hold the Presses!(or should that be Hold the Blog? lol) There are fluxes that don't burn off at higher temps! And there are many sizes of tips...not just pencil tips

Rule of thumb is to have more heat than necessary than less, you can always hold the torch farther away, change the flame color or use a better tip, but without the extra you may not have enough to do the job. A cold solder can look ok, but flux can inhibit a solid fillet....

Finally oxy/acet tanks can be refilled at any welding shop, aren't MAPP and the other's disposable? Less waste for the environment.

I offer my knowledge to help not hinder, use what you can and leave the rest...
John


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I am sticking to Sievert torches. For this kind of work they are the way to go. Haste make waste.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey that's great, I'm happy for you.

I was just offering another solution, I can understand your reasoning and truly accept it. 

However I will back up my earlier posts and I know that a hotter torch can be safely used for a faster build. I realise that my decades of experience and gainfully earned knowledge gives me a bias, so be it. 

I love this hobby and am hoping to help, not hinder.

Keep moving your flame. (as in torch)

John


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

I agree with Bob that for a beginner a propane torch is best. 

On the other hand skilled jewelry makers have to learn how to control a torch with a lot more presiscion than most boiler work. The parts are a lot more delecate. The difference in silver solder temperatures are: easy 65% Ag melting 1240 deg, flow 1325 deg, and medium 70% Ag 1274 deg melt, 1360 deg flow, and hard 75% Ag 1365 melt ,1450 flow. The melting point of silver used to make jewelry is between about 1500.deg and 1690 deg. The three grades of silver solder used for jewelry work are used so complex shapes can be made with more than one heat. This takes real skill to flow one solder and not melt the higher grade. 

I would advise only a neutral or reducing flame only for any silver solder work, an oxidizing flame will add more oxygen which will increase fire scale. 

I have used oxy/acet for a lot of industrial jobs on the ships including a lot of copper pipe and brass parts as it was all we had to work with. In my shop I use oxy/acet with a air/acet torch for small jobs. I am a bit out of practice and I hope it is like learning to ride a bike, or I will be soon getting a Sievert torch. 
Dan


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

A tip for Firescale; if you mix powdered Boric Acid in denatured alcohol and then burn off the alcohol., it will leave a fine dusting which you melt to the surface. Most liquid sterling fluxes have some in it. Comes off clean in the pickle. 

Bicycles have more gears now, but the principle is the same. 

John


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Here is a short history of soldering and brazing:
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/book-c100011.html

Be sure to click on the tips page and the strength of joints page at the top.

I am still looking for the critical crack length article in "Model Engineering" if anyone has the reference I would apreciate it.

Does anyone know the alloy content for the grades of silver solder listed in the AMBSC part 1 & 3? I had no luck finding specs on the web.

The current standard for silver brazing rod down under is AS/NZS 1167.1:2005.
Dan


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it is about time to come up with some "rules". I will make a start with a list I handed out during a silver soldering session with BAGRS members: 

#1 Enough heat: Benzomatic not even enough power for small fuel tank 
#2 Gaps need to be small, rule of thumb: you can just see light through 
#3 Clean (can't overdo) 
#4 Flux (can't overdo) 
#5 break corners (burrs prevent flow) 
#6 use brass screws or copper rivets to keep complicated assemblies together 
#7 Heat up evenly. Try to focus the heat on the larger part. Silver solder tends to flow in the direction of higher temperature. The flux first boils, gets white, then forms little droplets and finally melts to an even transparent layer 
#8 When flux is molten and material begins to slightly glow in subdued light, add silver solder 
#9 The solder should flow rapidly around the gap and penetrate it. 
#10 If it does not flow, 
- not enough heat 
- not enough flux or not clean (oxydized) 
- gap too big 
- too hot(bright red)! (can happen with small or complex parts) 
- flux exhausted. This happens, when the torch is too small and the part is heated for a long time. 
#11 Let cool down until it gets black and dip into pickle bath (when in doubt, wait longer) I use citric acid 
#12 Clean and inspect 


#13 The beauty of silver soldering vs. soft soldering: 
- much stronger 
- the solder reacts with the parent material. The melting point of this alloy is higher than pure Cu 
so previous joints won't open up again. This works OK for simple parts, especially when the joints are 
fairly wide apart. Don't rely on this for big parts like boilers, they have to be held together 
by rivets/screws (I know, what I am talking about) 
- joints in brass are almost invisble -> fake castings. 

Don’t take short cuts unless you know what you are doing! 

If you disagree or want to add, feel free to do so. 
Regards


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Except for the use of brass screws which could lead to problems that advise is not much different from this that I referenced in the previous message. 

Copyed directly from:
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/silver-soldering-tips-c25.html

The key to successful silver soldering is to adhere to the basic principles of the brazing process. You are brazing - not welding with an expensive filler rod. Basically a welded joint relies on the strength of the filler and parent metals. The strength of a brazed joint, if made correctly, will be governed solely by the strength of the parent materials be they copper, brass, bronze or steel. They will fail before the joint fails.

The basic principle of brazing is that the alloy is made to flow into a joint by capillary action. This is what you see when dipping a sugar lump into your tea! The capillary forces are incredibly strong and will defy gravity.

We achieve this by considering four factors. 
1) Fluxing 
2) Joint gap 
3) Heating technique 
4) Application of alloy 

*Fluxing* 
The joints must be free of oil and grease. 
The flux removes the oxides present before and formed during the heating process. 

Mix the flux into a paste with water to the consistency of yoghurt. Add the water sparingly as it is very easy to ''swamp'' the flux. Add a couple of drops of detergent. This will help the flux to "wet" onto the components. Ensure that you have a good covering of flux paste before heating. 
The flux used will depend on the parent materials, melting range of the silver solder and heating time. 
In essence there are two types of flux. The vast majority of joints will be made by a fluoride based flux. We refer to it as EF flux - "easy flowing flux". Use it with a low or medium melting point silver solder such as 842, 440 and 456 on copper, brass or mild steel. 

If using a higher temperature alloy such as 424 or you are brazing stainless steel or have a long heating time use a borate based flux. We call this HT5 - "high temperature flux." If there is a problem getting the alloy to flow - it's probably a flux problem. Contact us. 

It is essential that you cover, and keep covered, the joint areas with flux during the heating process. Use plenty to avoid the flux becoming "spent" and allowing oxidation to re-occur - a common fault that leads to poor joints. This also applies if the need to reflow the solder or add more solder arises. 
Full details of the alloys can be found on the ''Silver Solder'' page. 

*Joint Gap* 
For all alloys there is an optimum joint gap. This ranges from 0.01mm .25mm. Alloys with a narrow melting range operate at the lower end of this band. To bridge wider gaps use an alloy with a wider melting range. 

The strongest joints are achieved with narrow joint gaps. They are also the cheapest! 

*Heating Technique* 
Ensure that all the joint is at brazing temperature. Cold spots will freeze the alloy, preventing flow through the entire joint resulting in low strength and leaks. Heat the joint not the alloy. Where you heat the joint will affect where the alloy flows. Molten alloy will tend to flow towards the hottest point. Heat the joint in front of where you want to apply the alloy. 
Avoid heating the rod directly. Let the alloy take its heat from the joint. 
When brazing tube or pipe assemblies it is better to make a ring and put the alloy inside the tube and heat the joint from outside. The alloy will melt and flow to the hottest point ie flows though and fills the joint area producing a positive witness of alloy. This is very good confirmation of a sound joint. 

*Care should be taken when brazing copper of unknown quality. Use a more expensive ''oxygen free'' grade (C106) to avoid hydrogen embrittlement of the copper or ensure that you use an oxidizing flame. The flame can react with the oxygen to produce steam that causes embrittlement and internal porosity.* 

*Alloy Application* 
There is little point in trying to apply alloy until the joint is hot enough. A good indication of joint temperature is the flux itself. During heating the flux bubbles and dries out. It becomes a clear colourless liquid at about 550 deg C. This is just below the melting point of your alloy. 
Don't try to apply alloy until you see the flux melt. There can be a tendency to rush the process and apply the rod too early. You may be tempted to switch the heat to the rod. *Don't!
*Be a little patient. Watch the flux ! 
Apply your rod to the joint. The alloy will melt and flow into the joint. Once the joint is full remove the alloy. There is no advantage to be gained by building up a large fillet. It contributes nothing to the strength of a joint. Leave fillets to the welders! 
Use the smallest diameter rod you can. It helps to keep the alloy usage and cost to a minimum. 

*SAFETY PRECAUTIONS* 

DO NOT OVERHEAT THE ALLOY It does not produce stronger joints. On the contrary, overheating is one of the main causes of poor joints and will exaggerate any potential problem of metal fume notably cadmium. 
Once the alloy has flowed into the joint remove the heat. 

Never brazed before ? 
Experiment with our starter pack of alloy, flux and a few written words. 

Remember 

Braze in well ventilated areas. 
Use protective goggles and gloves. 
Wash your hands thoroughly after brazing. 

If you notice anything unusual stop brazing and seek advice.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

A lot of good information listed here guys. One thing though, I look for rather basic tools to do the job. While a Special torch set may be of value, I can't see spending big bucks for a 'one off' project. My Mapp gas torch has done a lot of silver soldering over the years, but just wasn't up to the job for this huge piece of 'L' pipe! So, I decided to try something: Got a 'Charcoal Starter', that's a canister looking rig with a handle, a bottom with holes, and holes around the bottom outside. I filled it about 1/2 with charcoal and let it get good and hot, stuck my 'pipe' down into the charcoal and let it sit for awhile. I was trying to finish soldering in the top plate, and had given up with just the Mapp Gas........just couldn't get enough heat. After I thought the copper was hot enough, fluxed the top, and fired up the Mapp torch. Worked like a champ! BTW, saw this safety valve in an old pic somewhere and thought it looked like a winner, so thought I'd make one. Most of the commercial valves are pretty high pressure. This seems pretty good for a low pressure boiler.....30psi.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Did anyone take note of the mention of Hydrogen Embrittlement of Copper?

They advise an oxidizing flame. I was taught to use a neutral flame at the sailor factory. I just checked my Victor instruction manual and they say neutral flame and sometimes a carburizing or reducing flame for brazing which is the same advice as the jewelry book I used for the other post on this subject.

This is not an issue with a propane air torch as the tips are set for a neutral flame. 

I checked about Hydrogen Embrittlement of Copper and found this:
http://www.industrialheating.com/Articles/Column/529c42b13ebb7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

I have silver soldered a lot of industrial copper with an oxy/acet neutral flame, and used the same flame for annealing a whole lot of small copper gaskets with out any apparent problem. 
Dan


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

So.... what's the difference between an Oxydizing, Neutral and Carburizing flames... and how does one know which is which and how to get one instead of the others?

I "THINK" (which is quite hard on me, these days) I have an idea what the terms mean, but I hezitate to express the result of that thinking such that I get reprimanded for diseminating erroneous information.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

An oxidizing flame has surplus oxygen, and a reducing flame has to little oxygen. The neutral flame is an even balance of fuel and oxygen. 

To set a neutral flame light the torch with the oxygen valve closed or just slightly cracked. This will be to little oxygen and the flame will be yellow and ragged. Increase the oxygen until the feathers on the inner flame cone just disappear, that is the neutral flame setting. I had to light the torch to get this straight; it is standard shop practice for industrial work.

For a picture see: http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14250/css/14250_88.htm
Dan


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cap'nBill on 03/18/2009 3:36 PM
A lot of good information listed here guys. One thing though, I look for rather basic tools to do the job. While a Special torch set may be of value, I can't see spending big bucks for a 'one off' project. My Mapp gas torch has done a lot of silver soldering over the years, but just wasn't up to the job for this huge piece of 'L' pipe! So, I decided to try something: Got a 'Charcoal Starter', that's a canister looking rig with a handle, a bottom with holes, and holes around the bottom outside. I filled it about 1/2 with charcoal and let it get good and hot, stuck my 'pipe' down into the charcoal and let it sit for awhile. I was trying to finish soldering in the top plate, and had given up with just the Mapp Gas........just couldn't get enough heat. After I thought the copper was hot enough, fluxed the top, and fired up the Mapp torch. Worked like a champ! BTW, saw this safety valve in an old pic somewhere and thought it looked like a winner, so thought I'd make one. Most of the commercial valves are pretty high pressure. This seems pretty good for a low pressure boiler.....30psi.




That technique is similar to the "old timers" except they would use coke and a kerosene blow torch. Good news that it worked.

Did I read correctly that you heated the pipe, then put on flux? Normally you would the flux on first and then heat it up. You want to watch the flux go through it's stages so you know more accurately when the temp is right.


Time to get nervous. First hydro test is right around the corner.


Bob


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