# Affordable Steam Engines LLC



## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Hello to the MLS community:


My name is Karl Boe from Portland, Oregon. This is my second post but my first in the live steam forum. I manufacture many of the parts for the Cricket locomotive starting with Mike Krionderis and now for Art Ruiz. I wanted to introduce myself before asking a question. 


I've been a model railroader since childhood, first with American Flyer, then an extensive Marklin HO layout and collection, evolving in my early teens into a scale HO modeler building my own turnouts and hand laying rail. I always loved small live steamers and tried unsuccessfully to find an old Basset Lowke or other small steamer. Since there were no commercially available products that I knew of other than Aster 35 years ago, and I couldn’t afford Aster, I knew I would just have to wait and build one for myself someday.


I began ordering catalogs for lathes and mills and such, but back then (1980) inexpensive machine equipment was not readily available, and I never happened upon a good deal on any used equipment.


However, about that time I started drag racing my 1970 GTO, and it turned out I had a knack for building horsepower on a budget and tuning carburetors and ignition. I quickly started winning enough to not only build a reputation and create a business, I was winning enough money to help pay my way through college.


The skills I developed during those years machining my own engines in my buddies shop, and solving tuning problems on multitudes of hot rods, muscle cars, and race cars, have served me well ever since.


So nearly 35 years later, I have never taken my eye off the goal of creating and maybe selling small live steam engines. However, somehow I managed to turn all my other hobbies into successful businesses except model railroading or live steam. I sold my large Slot Car shop in 2000, sold and manufactured high end carbon fiber R/C sailplanes for a few years, and still build carbs and distributors for muscle cars.


While I had my slot car shop in the 1990's, I began manufacturing a few products using job shops for the machining and laser cutting, but I started buying machine equipment to lower my costs and increase margins. In fact, before I had even my sherline lathe, I already bought a Hardinge automatic screw machine.


Now, I don't want to bore everyone with my life story, but I thought it pertinent to the question I will have in another paragraph or so...


So the last ten years I picked up a lot of skills through a year in NC as supervisor of a large machine shop supplying Freightliner. A year as a Union Millwright working the west coast paper mills and various factories. And then 3 years as supervisor of maintenance at a large steel company. The last gig I was also the company pipe fitter. So I have literally soldered miles of copper tubing building the Nitrogen system that feeds 12 industrial 4-6000watt lasers in a seven acre under one roof factory.


I have now operated, programmed, setup, or repaired hundreds of different types of machine equipment and have been involved in the manufacturing process at the most hands on level possible.


Taking these jobs had one purpose, educate myself and provide the money to buy equipment so that I could build live steam stuff and start a business.


I now have a complete manufacturing facility at my home. Including automatic and manual screw machines, CNC lathe, turret drill press, injection molding machine, and various manual and support equipment.


I have been designing and testing live steam products, building custom tooling, and honing the manufacturing processes for the last 5 years.


Unfortunately, two years ago, the #%[email protected] who ran the factory I was working at, replaced my entire crew and the family wage jobs we held, with $10/hr temps. I had just purchased my CNC lathe the year before and was rebuilding capital when that happened, so to avoid having to get another job, I doubled down on getting the machine shop ready for business.


So for the last couple years I've been living on a shoestring budget, working on muscle cars in the summer and machining parts for the Cricket and others during the winter.


I am now a couple of weeks away from going “live” with Affordable Steam Engines LLC. Only the website is left to finish and then my first products will be released.


I have about six small items to release initially, then I will try to add a product or more per week.


I have quite a few more designed, prototyped, in testing, or simply waiting for available machine time.


This brings me to the question finally...


One of my first products I just finished production, and my CNC lathe is still set up for it. However, I believe the same product would work on other locomotives and I need some information from people who own various Accucraft loco's so that I can quickly continue making more of them without major tooling or programming changes.


I came up with the product because I was never happy with the burner adjustment range in my Ruby. When I built a radiant burner for it, the problem got worse. The adjustment of the gas is extremely sensitive and makes me unhappy. Also, the large O-ring causes a small amount of “springy-ness” to the adjustment, and I have found the flame to change after I set it. The 5mm fine thread is 50.8 TPI. So I came up with the idea of a sleeve that threads into the stock burner tank, but has 80 TPI threads inside so that I could make a needle that would replace the stock one.


Here are a couple pictures:


















This has worked out very well. The flame can now be fine tuned, and the small O-rings don't cause the needle to spring out of adjustment.


The Question!!! About time...


In pictures on the forum, I have seen some gas tanks mounted in the tender. They seem to use the same gas valve body so my sleeve should work, however, the needle is longer.


I would like to ask if any one of the forum members with access to various Accucraft locomotives, would kindly measure the needles on any that look different than the Ruby style? And also provide me with the length or lengths with or without the knob removed, and which loco the measurements are from for my own information.


I hope I didn't bore anyone to much. I would also like to mention that all my products that I manufacture, will be available wholesale so your regular dealer should be able to provide my products as well.


I am also available for small, low cost production and will trade machine work for Steam locomotives, rolling stock, or track and accessories. Although track is not critical since Larry Staver is my friend and I have access to his awesome facility.


Thanks for your time,


Gearhead


Karl Boe
Affordable Steam Engines LLC
Portland, Oregon


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Welcome aboard Karl! 

I am always excited to see US manufacturing and especially in our line! I wish you great success however you choose to measure it! 

Unfortunately all I have is Ruby type engines including ones i have modified, so I cannot give you any more info on the gas valves. But it looks like you have a good product which should work well!


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you tried calling Cliff from accucraft? He might be able to give you some answeres. Welcome aboard, hope your business does well. Like eric said its nice to see another US manufacturing in Live steam. I have a ricket and love it.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Karl, 
I wish you good fortune with your business, BUT ..... 
I hate to be a boring realist, but some things I look at backwards! 
How much will you be selling your revised gas valve for? 
Are owners who find that their Accucraft gas locomotives do indeed run, going to recognise the value of your valve to bother to replace the original? 
I don't have any gas fired locos, so can't answer my question, but I guess time will tell if you have a winner. 
Good luck, and welcome to MLS. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

Karl, you've picked a good choice for Accucraft aftermarket parts! Their gas valve is marginal at best. I'll take 2 of your gas valves when you start selling them, please contact me at; jabsteam at hotmail dot com. 
I would suggest another product for improving Accucraft engines - a locking type Goodall Valve for their in-cab steam turret that seals tight and allows one-handed water refill operation. 
Another suggestion would be boiler fittings like multiple port Banjo Bolts for the addition of water gauges and/or whistles to an existing engine without having to drill/modify the boiler. 
Mass produced whistles and valves would be another suggestion. Axle pumps with associated valves/fittings in complete kits would be another. 
Small scale live steam modeling is growing by leaps and bounds, and I think a good line of accessories to improve all of these engines out there will do well - we Americans love to accessorize! 
Best of luck on your business venture!


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Welcome aboard. 
I would second that for the whistle. 
Although i own a Ruby, i dont run it enough. The back burner plan is to get in on RC. 
Maybe in the future, once you get established, offer simple Live steam kits for us not knowlegeable in the field of live steam. 
There are probably things out there for Ruby, but i havn't put much work into looking for it. as it was more important to get the rails down. 
All the best, 
Greg R.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By roadranger on 12 Jan 2013 10:40 AM 
Karl, you've picked a good choice for Accucraft aftermarket parts! Their gas valve is marginal at best. I'll take 2 of your gas valves when you start selling them, please contact me at; jabsteam at hotmail dot com. 
I would suggest another product for improving Accucraft engines - a locking type Goodall Valve for their in-cab steam turret that seals tight and allows one-handed water refill operation. 
Another suggestion would be boiler fittings like multiple port Banjo Bolts for the addition of water gauges and/or whistles to an existing engine without having to drill/modify the boiler. 
Mass produced whistles and valves would be another suggestion. Axle pumps with associated valves/fittings in complete kits would be another. 
Small scale live steam modeling is growing by leaps and bounds, and I think a good line of accessories to improve all of these engines out there will do well - we Americans love to accessorize! 
Best of luck on your business venture! 
Jim

While I wish Karl well, and welcome him to MLS we do alot of what you are looking for. As a sponsor of the forum it might be good to check out what is offered by sponsors through their support of MLS.

For example there are many samples of our parts in the TRS photo log :

Custom axle pump


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the positive comments everyone. I know that the MLS board should not be used to promote business, so I don't want to break any rules or step on anyone’s toes. I have been reading this board for over a decade and I very much appreciate the resource it provides. I posted because I had no contacts in one place that could provide what I needed to know in a short time period. The post served its purpose and I have been contacted by someone who has provided the information I needed.
To David, I have no illusions about the size of the market for these parts. But I am in a unique situation where I have extremely low overhead, no ex wives or children, I own all my equipment outright, and I drive a 1964 Valiant which hasn't seen a car payment since probably 1966, so parts will not be expensive and I don't need large volumes to call a product successful. I am also lucky enough to have the most lovely, young, industrious, and supportive girlfriend any guy could ask for, who is capable of running the machines or any other task needed. In the time it would take me to machine one sample of most parts on my manual lathe, I can produce a couple hundred with my various automatic equipment. My CNC lathe is whats known as a gang tool lathe, and it's extremely well suited to producing parts for steam engines at extremely high speed compared with typical turret style CNC lathes. I am also very adept at creating custom fixtures that allow me to use this lathe for high speed milling operations.
I couldn't get a video of my lathe to embed, so here is a link for those with interest. There are other videos of Cricket parts and my automatic turret lathe there as well.


Cricket Safety Valve in Production 
Some people will not be interested and are happy with their loco's the way they are...but I will have the parts for those that don't.


To Jim from TRS. You are absolutely right that the forum sponsors should be supported. I have followed your business and visit your website to see what cool new things you are doing. I don't see to much overlap of our business models though. I will not be selling or servicing locomotives. No custom one off machining or boilers, and really, not many parts specifically designed for Accucraft locos. 

My goal is to create a new avenue for inexpensively entering the hobby of live steam, this should create more locomotive buyers in the long run, providing more opportunity for a business such as yours.
My focus is more on the casual home builder, scratch builder, steam boaters, steam punkers, poor people like myself, and anyone else who has found that acquiring a quality low cost boiler and working engine to install in some gadget or locomotive, with appropriate accessories, to have a fairly high entry cost barrier.
My primary products are a line of extremely high precision low cost oscillating engines in a variety of configurations(single and V twins currently in the final stages of parts production), and 2” vertical and horizontal gas fired boilers in only a couple of configurations. 

With the exception of boilers and steam motors, all my products will be available to legitimate dealers for standard hobby trade discount, something not seen in this industry of short discounts. The boilers, engines, and burners, which are much more labor intensive, will still offer better discounts than any other manufacturer, while keeping the retail prices significantly lower than any comparably high quality product.
Here are some examples...These pictures are more than a year old, I have ten prototypes of each, laser cut from stainless(but parts for the first hundred are 90% completed). A few more parts and plumbing details and I'll be ready for the initial production order of laser cutting of the stainless steel. The boiler on the right is the final prototype and only minor changes have been made to locate the bushings more appropriate for sight glass and burner installation. I've built custom form tooling to produce the flanges from laser cut copper quickly and easily.


















Again, I'd like to say thank you to everyone, and I didn't want this to become a promotional for me or my business. I will do that in the traditional way by supporting and advertising in the various publications and forums available.
This is a small hobby, and people will find me one way or another.

Thanks
Karl


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl
This is Charles from TRS....seems we have some similarities in our goals: offering products to hobbyists not available from the major manufacturers that improve their equipment or allows for other options for steam experiences. 

BTW-
Here is our vertical boiler(coal fired but can be fired by other fuels):


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Duhh! Hi Charles, my eyes grabbed Jim's name from your post. I know from reading your posts who you are...sorry. 

That's a beautiful boiler. As you can see from my pictures, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible for low price yet made to the standard building practices of our hobby. I've designed and tested a very low profile, simple to make radiant burner for these boilers that allows for 130+ml of water with 1" of steam space, yet only 4.5" to the top flange. Alas, I haven't built any gas tanks(well, I did, but I dropped it after it was annealed by brazing). However I am redesigning them to decrease the labor involved, but I will soon have low cost burner jets in a variety of threads. 

I basically just want to make things I would want to buy, but at a price I could afford. 

Expanding the hobby, introducing newcomers, is what I hope will build the businesses of all who provide service to this hobby. 

Thanks 

Karl


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

gearhead, go for it. Since I do a lot of my own simple modifications, there are several things I would be interested in purchasing from you that I can not make myself. I'll be looking forward to more of your progress. nick jr


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl don't be discouraged we need people like you in the hobby!


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

Charles - I try to support MLS sponsors, but as far as I can tell you offer services only, no parts availability. Yes, I see you have an axle pump, but no part pricing info for it on your site, and I don't see any of the other components offered, like bypass valves, elbows, tees, boiler bushings, or check valves. Many of us would be looking for an axle pump kit that has ALL of the parts required for a running installation, preferably to be able to install the kit without silver soldering on the boiler by using existing boiler fittings. 

I want to improve my engines by working on them myself, like adding whistles, sight glasses, pop valves that actually pop and not dribble, Goodall valves that lock down, axle pumps for extended running, etc. 
Having no machine equipment myself, I am excited at the prospect of having someone manufacture the parts needed to put these jobs together for myself. And I think there are a LOT of other people out there wanting to work on their own engines that don't have the extensive machining equipment or experience to produce the parts needed. You offer building/repair services, Karl will be offering parts for sale - two different animals. 
That is why I am encouraging Karl in his new business venture. 

Karl - Very interesting to see that V shaped frame, looks like it could be used for a Heisler drivetrain? Very cool, I have not seen an operating 45mm Heisler loco in any scale yet. 
Will you be putting up a website when you launch your business?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jim B 

Catatonk Locomotive Works [Ron Brown] imported a live steam Heisler built [IIRC] Mike Chaney. 

Here is a very short clip of Marie Brown running it at a recent steam up. ==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBbGug0qIQg


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By roadranger on 13 Jan 2013 10:03 AM 
Charles - I try to support MLS sponsors, but as far as I can tell you offer services only, no parts availability. Yes, I see you have an axle pump, but no part pricing info for it on your site, and I don't see any of the other components offered, like bypass valves, elbows, tees, boiler bushings, or check valves. Many of us would be looking for an axle pump kit that has ALL of the parts required for a running installation, preferably to be able to install the kit without silver soldering on the boiler by using existing boiler fittings. 


Jim
Point of "support sponsor" is did you contact us and at least ask the question given we do indicate "part & components" both on the web site and the photo log?

Your overview of our offering is partial correct. We do not list parts per say nor price list as we do custom parts and not a 
"parts warehouse." On the other hand if you need the part made such as bypass valves, tees, bushing, check valves we make them as per request or during our repairs or upgrades. As to specific such as axle pump what you saw in the post is custom build to spec of a locomotive and can become a kit but again we do not stock items on hand.

So, we make parts but do not warehouse them as our time and priority to our many customers does not require them frequently. If Karl is looking to become the next "parts warehouse" in line with Precision Scale Company and others I wish him well.


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks, Jim for that link. Now I can say I've seen a Heisler run! I wonder how many Heislers Mike Chaney built? 
And I wonder why with all of the Shay variants and Climax's built by Accucraft they've never done a Heisler?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jim 

West Side Heisler was done as an ELECTRIC only model by Accucraft, just like WSLCo #15 Shay. Accucraft was not convinced of the sales potential.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By roadranger on 12 Jan 2013 10:40 AM 
Karl, you've picked a good choice for Accucraft aftermarket parts! Their gas valve is marginal at best. I'll take 2 of your gas valves when you start selling them, please contact me at; jabsteam at hotmail dot com. 
I would suggest another product for improving Accucraft engines - a locking type Goodall Valve for their in-cab steam turret that seals tight and allows one-handed water refill operation. 
Another suggestion would be boiler fittings like multiple port Banjo Bolts for the addition of water gauges and/or whistles to an existing engine without having to drill/modify the boiler. 
Mass produced whistles and valves would be another suggestion. Axle pumps with associated valves/fittings in complete kits would be another. 
Small scale live steam modeling is growing by leaps and bounds, and I think a good line of accessories to improve all of these engines out there will do well - we Americans love to accessorize! 
Best of luck on your business venture! 

Karl, 
I agree with the general concensus that you are going in the right direction.

I also agree with Jim that the Accucraft gas valve is not exactly a precision product. You might want to look at the big engines with double burners. I was astonished to discover that the K-36 loco gas valve can't supply enough gas to keep the two burners lit unless you heat the butane so it is at a high pressure. Does your valve supply more gas than the standard one at full open?

Jim's comment about locking Goodall valves is good. I soldered the male end of a coupling to my check valve for precisely that reason, but most folk don't want to solder expensive boiler fittings. There is a fitting on the back of many Accucraft boilers with a plug in it, designed to take an accessory like their check valve. I think it is an M5x.5 thread ? The fitting (check valve and quick-connect) can be used with the Accucraft black water pipe on the locos that have a tender pump - at the moment it is just a push-on to a barb. (Let me know if you want photos - there's quite a few around this site.)

The banjo bolt is another item (great minds think alike, Jim?) Whether you 'stack' a couple of banjo bolts on a tall screw, or have a bolt with multiple outlets - either works for me.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By roadranger on 12 Jan 2013 10:40 AM 

I would suggest another product for improving Accucraft engines - a locking type Goodall Valve for their in-cab steam turret that seals tight and allows one-handed water refill operation. 
I do NOT own any locos with Goodall valves, so do NOT speak from experience.
My understanding of the idea when originally developed, is that the tubing that is used to press into the Goodall opening should be tight enough so that when the water is pumped through, it forces the tubing to expand enough to make a water tight fit, and that the water can then only be pushed into the boiler.
This will allow one handed refilling.
I have noticed people with brass tips to there pump bottles, which of course will not allow this to happen.
If I have this wrong, then I am sure that I will be corrected. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David

The best setup for a "one handed" operations of a pump bottle into a good all valve is with quick disconnects. The male end is solder to a fittings as such( the inserting of plastic hose gets hot, melts or becomes hard):


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Charles, 
That's okay, but just another added expense. 
So, maybe don't use plastic! 
Use something like nylon which would be more tolerant to the heat. 
If you do use plastic, just cut the end off if it gets damaged. 
and WHY do you have a goodall on a tender loco which probably has a tender pump? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David

Because it does not....Aristocraft Mikado. Using nylon or any other rubber/plastic is not a "one hand" operation vs. the better "added expense" on click and pump with one hand! As with all upgrades or improvements over time there is usually a increase cost (rotary phone vs. smart phone).


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 13 Jan 2013 04:15 PM 
David

Using nylon or any other rubber/plastic is not a "one hand" operation 

I guess maybe that's the difference between Enots and Goodall.
I have certainly watched people in the UK do it with one hand when in pressure.
Like I said, I have no locos with them, so have no experience having to pump. 
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Do we think that this thread can get back to where it started. The new offerings of an up and coming business. Not a thread to further advertise offerings by others. It is titled Affordable Steam Engines. I had to jump in, this really has gotten far of topic and it happens too often and is very old.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Finally someone has the guts to start American made affordable steam engines!! Go for it ! We all should support Karl with his machinable know how ,there are parts defiantly in need of refinement/tune up we all are in need off ,most of us can not make the needed improvements by themselves,let him know what we want/need ,i think he will take advantage off getting into the steam-business with some new ideas ! 

Manfred


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

True, it would be nice to see more offered and sold in the US (says the guy that just ordered some steam bits out of the UK this AM).


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Just spend $ 1000.00 on a mini lathe /Drill press and various tools to make some parts i need ,i could have bought some of those parts to save some bucks, but then i had to spend some money on machines to modify or make those parts fit.... and so on... 

Go for it Karl! May be the someone who does it right is you! 

Manfred


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

If you are going to build locomotives that are inexpensive, I'd suggest following the Roundhouse basic series idea. D valve, 9/16ths cylinders, and simple slip eccentrics. If you ever build a Forney with those specs for under $1000 I will buy it in time! Welcome to the forums!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

WOW!!! SJ will go up to $9,999.00 for a Forney. What's a zero among friends. less than one thousand maybe. LOL! Made my morning


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

LOL DR Rivet, fixed thanks lol! Maybe it was 7 1/2 gauge I'd spend $10k on one! Opps, nice one I know.


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## ScottB (Jan 8, 2010)

Karl,

How exciting to hear that you are going to enter the world of Live steam parts! You will be seeing some orders from me when your site opens. I have been involved in machining since 1984 and I do manage a small Machine Tool Manufacturing Company. I have all the machines I need at my disposal to make the parts I need but often times all the other duties of life get placed ahead of my free time to do work for myself. Many times I order parts that I know I can make but just due to the lack of free time I will order the parts in order to keep a project moving

Scott


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

I want to thank everyone for the support and encouragement I have received. 
Its important to me to follow the rules of the board, so I have not been responding to specific posts about different products, or discussed prices. Although my natural tendency would be to get in a discussion with all of you and talk about my plans, I need to spend my time building my website and machining the long list of cool parts already on the list.
Pretty much everything that has been mentioned is on the list as a product that will be available. There are currently no plans to produce complete locomotives to any prototype, I can't compete with the companies doing this already. However, I have designed and built some of the prototype for a simple freelance Idris or Chaloner style engine, and plan to offer chassis kits for 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 rod locos for freelance loco builds. These are probably a year or more away however, since the main business plan and my production schedule, is to put all the small parts and simple motors and boilers on the market first. I have long range plans for more complex parts that would allow more to scale builds, however, I need some different equipment and time to make fixtures, for it to happen efficiently and remain affordable.
I am not interested in providing the services Charles at TRS does...no custom machining(unless someone wants an actual “production run” of something), no loco service or retrofits. I am a manufacturing facility set up to run production. I have manual equipment there only to support the production equipment. Even boiler production has been carefully planned to reduce labor and costs, so specific boiler configurations simply are not possible without messing with the process. I will however offer boiler kits, minus the bushing holes, so that people can drill the shells and end plates themselves and braze it up. This will save the effort of forming the parts and making the bushings, as well as the sourcing of the copper and bronze.
I am actively working on the website, and a couple of dealers have already contacted me, so my parts will be available soon.
When my website goes live, I will ask permission of the MLS webmaster to announce and link to it in the news forum. I believe I will be a valuable resource to the small scale live steam community for a couple of reasons. First, I love all things trains and steam from the most simple scratch built locos right up the the beautiful Asters I always wished I could afford. Second, I have built my entire life around creating a low overhead facility that will allow me to take risks on parts production that most manufacturers simply could not afford to pursue and keep prices low. Third, I'm a quality freak. Fourth, inventory control...I don't have to pay others(except laser cutting) for my parts, so my only costs are time and bar stock, and I only have to go into the shop from my kitchen to refill a particular part into inventory. I don't do batches of 10 or 20, I do batches in the hundreds or more. Being out of stock on something will be an exception rather than the rule.
And last, although I want this to be the only thing I do, it doesn't have to be that way to be a viable business for me. If it turns out only to supplement my income, I will still do it because I already own all the equipment, and if I combine it with the other ways I already generate income, I can still make a living and continue producing. Also, I am willing to sacrifice profit margin to help other small manufacturers, service businesses, or dealers supply low cost steam equipment, and help create a easy path to becoming a steam enthusiast, and a future hobbyist and locomotive buyer.
I invite any dealers, service companies, or small parts manufacturers to contact me. I will do small production runs at very low costs(relative to job shops) if it could help build the hobby and create more customers for all of us.
Thank you,
Karl Boe
Gearhead
Affordable Steam Engines


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl

Great plan of action, well focused with a specific purpose of a hobby need. We look forward to the offerings.


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

I particularly like the idea of the 0-4-0/ 0-6- chassis for scratch builders. I machine a lot of my own parts, mostly out of need, but welcome the availability of such to the hobby. Be sure to post a link when you're ready.


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## CN7470 (Jan 9, 2013)

Are you at all going to offer a complete 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 live steam locomotive? I think that would be a pretty cool idea considering you can build all the parts yourself.


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Charles, I appreciate your comments.


To Pete:

" I also agree with Jim that the Accucraft gas valve is not exactly a precision product. You might want to look at the big engines with double burners. I was astonished to discover that the K-36 loco gas valve can't supply enough gas to keep the two burners lit unless you heat the butane so it is at a high pressure. Does your valve supply more gas than the standard one at full open?"

It is possible but unlikely that my needle would provide more flow. The smallest restriction is the flow limitation. So the question to ask is; where is that? The inside diameter of the copper plumbing? Did they properly deburr the tube ends after cutting so it doesn't decrease the diameter and become the restriction? The diameter of the inlet of the gas valve body?

For my needle to make a difference, two things have to be true. The inside diameter of the plumbing must be larger than the inlet(seat diameter) at the bottom of the gas valve body(the plumbing is not the restriction), and...the tip of the gas valve needle does not rise completely above the face of the inlet seat before the threads disengage as the the needle is opened. This means that the needle tip is part of the flow path for the gas and is the restriction. My needle thread length, body sleeve thread depth, and Oring location, allow the tip to be withdrawn completely from the inlet orifice seat and you would have unrestricted and possibly increased flow through the port.

It is only possibly increased, because now that the needle is withdrawn it could still be that the inlet seat and passage diameter are to small, and are the new restriction, and need to be reamed larger.

Just as if the original needle will thread the tip all the way out of the seat without unsealing the Oring or running out of threads, then you can now assume the inlet dia. is the restriction, and it would have to be reamed larger to increase the flow.

Here is a picture of a cricket gas valve cutaway. I do this to measure the thread depth and needle location. Of course the cross hole at the end of the threads, where the plumbing would braze into the side, has not been drilled yet. That happens in a quick release fixture on my mill after all of them are made on the CNC lathe. But this is the area being discussed. Is the inlet seat diameter the restriction, or the plumbing, or the tip of the needle restricting the inlet orifice?









Hope that made sense.

Karl


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl
" I was astonished to discover that the K-36 loco gas valve can't supply enough gas to keep the two burners lit unless you heat the butane so it is at a high pressure." 

The environment surrounding the gas containers will effect the optimal output. Temperature of the gas tank during performance is important to butane used in gauge one locomotives that need certain temperature range in order to vaporize at a pressure coming out of the locomotive's burner for an effective burn. If the temperature drops too low, vaporization slows down and the pressure at the burner's nozzle drops. In the case of butane this drop can be so great that the burner refuses to burn without additional heat from a warm water bath in the tender or a cab mounted gas tank that absorbs heat from the locomotive's backhead. This situation it has everything to do with the temperature of the gas tank and/or gas container(transfer to tank) as it affects the gas pressure at the nozzle. Given that a nozzle size is also in play as would any other restriction you are indicating would be another factor to the control and flow of gas to the jet and burner output.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

This situation it has everything to do with the temperature of the gas tank 
Charles, 
If one burner of the two is working fine, but the other one is sputtering and going out, then my logic says there isn't enough gas pressure. While I agree you can make it work by always keeping the butane warm, I first heard of this in sunny Florida, where the temperature was/is around 70-80 degrees. Ordinary water at room temperature ought to provide a stable heat source for the butane. Yet one burner isn't getting enough pressure - so why not conclude there is a restriction and/or a flow problem? 

It is possible but unlikely that my needle would provide more flow. The smallest restriction is the flow limitation 
Karl, 
Yes, your explanation was understandable, if a bit more than I expected! More investigation of the situation is clearly needed, but as the K-36 belongs to a friend (who is getting married and thus not playing trains this month,) it will have to wait. 

P.S. I also like your plans. I have a 2-cylinder Graham engine just waiting for a simple boiler, and the Chaloners are fun so your 0-4-0 might be useful. Looking forward to watching your progress.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 15 Jan 2013 02:15 AM 


Pete
The core of my response was regarding Karl's indicating that he was "surprised" that a warm water bath was required. In spirit of that I indicated an acknowledged procedure necessary to keep the gas from cooling either from outside temperature or from the transfer of gas itself from tank to jets. We have had many experiences to determine and have installed many water bath systems to which most of the problems with burners are solved. Yet...some are not just by the warm water bath. I remember one where it was found that the drilled hole on the jet (off set angle) would not allow the gas to flow properly into the burner.

Read the "fine print" as I stated:
"Given that a nozzle size is also in play as would any other restriction you are indicating would be another factor to the control and flow of gas to the jet and burner output." 
Thus could be internal structural problem, bad/wrong size or improper drilled hole related to jet, could be material getting into the jet (tape, debris from the soldering) or even poor control valve stem. Could even be the type of gas being used.


This situation it has everything to do with the temperature of the gas tank 

Charles, 
If one burner of the two is working fine, but the other one is sputtering and going out, then my logic says there isn't enough gas pressure. While I agree you can make it work by always keeping the butane warm, I first heard of this in sunny Florida, where the temperature was/is around 70-80 degrees. Ordinary water at room temperature ought to provide a stable heat source for the butane. Yet one burner isn't getting enough pressure - so why not conclude there is a restriction and/or a flow problem? 

It is possible but unlikely that my needle would provide more flow. The smallest restriction is the flow limitation 


Karl, 
Yes, your explanation was understandable, if a bit more than I expected! More investigation of the situation is clearly needed, but as the K-36 belongs to a friend (who is getting married and thus not playing trains this month,) it will have to wait. 

P.S. I also like your plans. I have a 2-cylinder Graham engine just waiting for a simple boiler, and the Chaloners are fun so your 0-4-0 might be useful. Looking forward to watching your progress.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

We have had many experiences to determine and have installed many water bath systems to which most of the problems with burners are solved 
Charles, 
Most of my post was aimed at those who insisted (when this came up for Jameel a year or so ago) that all you needed was heat on the butane. 

As you know, I use a water bath on every loco I own, as the butane needs it. But I have only ever used heated water once - and that was at Rog's in January when the temp was 30F !! 











I'm just surprised that the folk offering / taking the advice to stuff hand warmers in the tender aren't investigating the root cause, and maybe Karl's new gas valve offers more chance to experiment. Unfortunately I don't own a K-36, and my EBT #12 (which has a similar boiler and similar burners - and probably the same gas valve,) does not exhibit this problem. (Which suggests to me it is a restriction issue in the gas supply system?)


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Hi Charles: 

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, the "surprised about warm water bath" was a quote of Pete's words from his post. 

To Pete: 

It could be as simple as a clogged jet on one side. you could try closing off the working burner to see if the other one starts working properly. If it does, then you could start searching downstream from the jets. I don't know how consistent the burner jets are from unit to unit and batch to batch, but possibly they are not consistent to each other in your friends locomotive. If one is significantly larger than the other for some reason, then that could present itself with similar behavior as a partially clogged jet. 

If it acts like a clogged jet of course, then it must be cleaned and tried again. If it still acts like a clogged jet, then the inconsistent jet scenario might be it. If possible swap out both jets from a similar, functioning burner set to see if the problem is eliminated. If it isn't...then you start looking at the restrictions downstream as my previous post described. Sooner or later, if you just step through the possibilities, you will find the problem. 

Gas, pressure, and flow systems can be really hard to tune. So many variables interplay with each other. As a pipe fitter building high pressure nitrogen systems, I had to provide uninterrupted flow up to 20bar (300+psi) from where the Nitrogen generators(gadgets that scrub nitrogen out of the air we breathe) were installed. This was done by pumping huge volumes of shop air(3" copper plumbing from two 150hp compressors) into five Nitrogen generators, which then evacuate themselves into high pressure pumps to jack the pressure to 450-500psi, and then is transported through a network of copper plumbing to 12 industrial lasers throughout about 4 acres of floor space in the 7 acre factory. These laser can cut up to 2" steel in 40' sheets at a time for some of them. If they lose some of the Nitrogen pressure, they either alarm out and stop working, or the operator must slow down the cutting dramatically...which of course, costs the company money. 

As supervisor, and no engineer on staff, my crew and I had to design the system from the bottom up. We had to take into account every restriction in the system that could create a pressure loss, 90 deg fittings, reducers, valves, etc. Complicated by the fact that at any time, we had to be able to isolate any laser for service without interrupting flow to any other laser in the system. Without going on and on...the basic system we designed worked pretty good. But problems surfaced here and there, overheating of the high pressure pumps became a problem, so we had to put multiple large evacuation fans in the pump room, then a 6' dia fan in the wall of the building to evacuate that area of the factory. We had to go find inefficiencies in the original air system that feeds the factory and correct them. At one point, finding where someone probably 50 years ago made a repair behind a storage building but obviously had the wrong fittings and just made do...2.5" choked down to .5" through multiple adapters, then back up to 2.5"...etc. 

But finally, after a few weeks of troubleshooting and head scratching, the system started to reach equilibrium. It worked awesome until the temps they hired to replace us, who knew nothing of the system or about the temperamental nature of high pressure pumps, apparently, turned off the alarms on the pumps because they couldn't figure out why they were going off, after they did this a couple times...two blown up $40k pumps. The money lost replacing the pumps and in lost military parts being produced by the lasers, would have paid my entire crews salaries for the next year. 

Hence the reason I don't want to work for large companies ever again if I can avoid it. 

Thanks 

Karl


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

then you start looking at the restrictions downstream as my previous post described. Sooner or later, if you just step through the possibilities, you will find the problem 
That was what figured. Accucraft and their technical assistant just suggested a warmer butane bath after trying all the eliminations you mention! 

As I said - just a thought that your valve might help the flow.


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

Ahhh, why is it again that I only have meths fired locos? 

Well, I have a gas one here to work on for someone else. With it being cold, I guess I have to convince the Mrs. that I need to test fire it on the stove or the like.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

So, will this ever happen? or will it sink into obscurity?


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

I just ordered and received 2 of their improved Accucraft Gas Valves. They installed nicely, but it's too cold to try to run them yet...


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl, I don't think anyone would mind if you put a link to your website in your signature. 

PS, I really think that someone in this country should be able to produce live steam locos


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

PS, I really think that someone in this country should be able to produce live steam locos 

If anyone can, it's Karl! I know Karl personally and there isn't a nicer or more talented guy in the hobby! His craftsmanship and creativity is amazing... 

Keith


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, for the last forty years, I have been trying to work out which loco would be worth making a small batch of! 
I decided that it was too difficult of a question to answer. 
Now with Accucraft on the market as well as Aster, it becomes even harder to compete in the market. 
Gas or alcohol, which scale etc. etc.. 
You spend a year on a batch of six locos, so are you going to be able to sell them for $6000 each, so that you can make a living? Is that enough? 
I know what you are saying Dave and Keith, but seems to me to be a very difficult market to get into, and succeed. 
The local guy here who was making a 2-8-0 to sell at $5000, at the same time that Aster came out with their Mikado at $4000, managed to sell just one, although he had parts made for many. 
In comparison with the Aster, his was crude and without much detail or sophistication, so at $1000 more expensive, he was facing an uphill battle. 
As always, ask 100 of us what loco we would like, and what price we are willing to pay, and get 100 different answers. 
Good luck to you Karl if you find the answer that I have never found. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## gearhead (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words Keith. It seems amazing to me now because I guess the time just flies, that I've known Keith now for close to 15 years. We've worked on some interesting steam related projects together. 

To Iceclimber: 

This is already happening, it is too late to turn back now. But in the last two weeks since I initially posted, I've received orders for parts from another steam manufacturer, more parts for the Cricket, and inquiries from other manufacturers and suppliers. I've also designed a different version of the gas valve that Jim convinced me would be a good option, and then run the production, worked on the website quite a bit(but am not finished), and ran production of a couple of parts for my own products and prototypes. 

On top of that, I had a a couple of well paying automotive projects in the smoldering stage, ordering parts and having machine work performed. Both of these are big jobs, a complete high performance(tuner) suspension install in a 66 Pontiac Lemans, and I'm building a 474" stoker Pontiac for a Firebird. The perfect storm arrived this week in that the backordered suspension parts finally arrived, and the machine shop called and are finally done 6 months later with the 455(now 474") block machine work. So I unfortunately, had to drop all website work to do nothing but machining and engine assembly. This week, I got the short block together, which included filling the block partially with blockcrete, filing the rings, modifying the oilpump, checking TDC against the balancer and timing marks, checking the deck height, triple checking the measurements on everthing, degreeing the solid lifter cam, then custom fitting the crank scraper and custom windage tray to the now oversize crank. The way I build engines is time consuming and tedious work, but this pays the mortgage which is a good thing, and my engines always perform well because of this... 

To David and others who have mentioned complete locomotives: 

There is much competition in the complete loco world, and I have no plans in the near term to try any such undertaking as a scale locomotive representative of any "real" prototype. My plans are 90% for supplying raw materials, sundry products, upgrade products, simple steam motors and boilers, and as many appropriate accessories as I can cost effectively manufacture. I do have plans for simple 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 chassis kits for scratch builders and kitbashers, and I have two half built prototypes for a freelance "Idris" style starter locomotive. All three of these things are on backburner right now as I have to start the business with the stuff I am making now. 

Any locomotive I can see myself manufacturing would be simple, freelance, no paint, and low on detail. My goal is to get more people into the hobby, this will provide a larger market for those who are better suited to manufacture complete, ready to run, prototypically based, locomotives. 

Thanks for all the positive comments everyone. I will post a link to my website as soon as it's done, which I wish was yesterday, but based on my schedule, is probably at least a week or two out. 

Karl 
Affordable Steam Engines LLC


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Karl, if you decide to manufacture a locomotive, from personal experience [far too many years ago] with a compay by the name of Hill Country Trains out of New Braunfels, TX - pick one which you believe will sell, do it well and have others give you a critique before going into production. In particular, don't spread yourself too thin. Hill Country started that way, but with unrealistic pricing, followed by a huge demand for low priced US made locomotives, the owner lost his way and decided to try offering everything under the sun. Nothing was built, lots of deposits were lost, the business dissolved and many were hurt. When the doors were shut, litterally hundreds of beautiful lost wax castings were laying about, plans for more than a dozen locomotives papered the walls, but nary a single rolling chassis was built. 

As said in an earlier post, the Roundhouse business model would be a good one to follow. 

Best wishes! I think everyone here would like you to succeed. 

Will


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