# Pulsed smoke generator possible on simple DC?



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I have seen very nice videos like these where each shuff sound is simultaneous with a smoke puff, the smoke coming out in clearly separated puffs, I understand there are smoke units like these that together with the sound card achieve this effect. I would like to have a locomotive equipped to produce this effect but with the RR Concepts StationMaster or Simple DC and not with DCC. 

G scale 4-6-0 w/sync sound and smoke: 




JT's MEGA-STEAM Smoke Fluid: 




http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/bprolineb-pulsed-smoke-generator-p-1258.html


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

I spent some time and designed a nice little PCB that can control the TrainLI Proline Smoke unit! See my videos here:











I made it so that it can work with a wide range of input voltage so it will work fine with track power, battery etc... or you can give it a fixed voltage and it will be fine too! It has a chuff sensor input so you can use something as simple as a magnetic reed switch and a magnet on the axle or something fancier like what is on the Bachmann C-19. My little PCB also has a USB connector on it allowing you to adjust settings such as idle heater voltage, max heater voltage among other things. It sure beats having to buy a fancy ZIMO sound unit or something like that! Now I can run my Phoenix Sound system and have this little additional PCB. I will try to insert an image of the PCB.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/memb...0-my-smoke-control-pcb-trainli-smoke-unit.jpg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To be clear, you want to have sound and synchronized chuffing, but want to run on DC (the Stationmaster is DC or PWM).

So, why not buy a Zimo or QSI and run on DC?

By the way, the QSI supports remote bell and whistle using the direction switch.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Because of the in my case innecesary extra expence Greg, I do want to use one of Gigawat's nice little PCB that can control the TrainLI Proline Smoke unit.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work Gigawat! 

I have a couple of B'mann K-27s that I'd like to get a sync'd chuff & puff. I run Phoenix sound. I use the optical sensor in the K-27 to trigger the Phoenix sound chuff. Will that work with your unit?

Do you sell these?

Thanks,
Jim


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gigawat, that's pretty slick! I'd be interested, too, if you were to offer this commercially. 

Something to ponder...

Is there a way to dynamically control the pulses going to the fan motor based on whether the loco is accelerating or decelerating? Take the Phoenix sound, for instance. You can adjust the "Johnson Bar" effect so that the chuff increases in volume when accelerating, and all but disappears when the loco is slowing down into a station. In the latter instance, I wouldn't expect to see copious amounts of steam pouring out of the smokestack (if any steam at all). 

@Greg, the QSI board has the "sound of power" feature that does the same thing to the chuff. Do you know if the output to the pulsed smoke unit follows suit and adjusts the pulses to the fan to match the chuff as it gets louder and softer? I've not played with that aspect of the Titan board.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, that is the point Kevin, that the smoke output is synced to the chuff contacts AND the sound.

Of course you can add this board and have a sound unit that takes a trigger input for chuff and then connect both the sound card and this board to synchronize.

Now you have 2 circuit boards, and no "sound of power" (really load dependent chuff), and you are REQUIRED to use a chuff contact, as opposed to "autochuff".

Not trying to burst any balloons, but you need to consider what all you need to pull this off on DC, and by the time you have bought a cheaper sound card and this board and then installed the chuff contact, you have probably invested the same as a QSI and you still don't have remote control of the sounds on DC like the QSI gives.

QSI has been making stuff for a long time and has added features for DC as well as DCC, experience has shown the number of different ways to run.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Actually would be fairly easy to do in dc.

Run the track voltage to the generator though a resistor for reduced output. Use a low voltage regulator and trigger a low voltage relay off the chuff contact/reed switch-magnet to let the full voltage flow to the generator for the puffs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right easy to do, but requires chuff switch. (I did say this) Relays are not normally used because they tend to bounce at high speeds, solid state better.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

An alternative that does not require a chuff sensor could be to use a low voltage color organ to drive the smoke generator. This is pulsed from the chuff speaker. Rather than a light bulb, the smoke generator would be pulsed.

It may require an onboard power source for this one, but an enterprising person could make something like this work.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/mk-114/low-voltage-light-organ-kit/1.html


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL84671AABA00711CB


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.km-1.de/html/nachrustrauchentwickler.html


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I visited the color organ page Toddalin , very interesting and only $13, because it's a kit, I do not have the knowledge to make this work. 
It also makes me think Gigawat could easily sell his little invention in kit form also, keeping the price low and simply printing the instructions and packing them with the components.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

There are several people interested so lets hope something materializes.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I too would be interested.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure if you guys are aware that now Massoth makes a pulsed smoke maker specifically for DC locomotives. It doesn't need any extra boards...you can use their hall effect sensor on an axle to trigger the chuffs or a reed switch etc. No need to reinvent the wheel...but that is a nice homemade board.

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Again, the OP indicated smoke puffs synchronized with the chuff sound.

So, he needs sound and a smoke unit.

The Massoth is nice, but the sound decoders like the Zimo and QSI can make the sound AND the puffs on a simple smoke unit with just a fan. 

I looked up some discount pricing on the Massoth unit, I got $123... a lot more than a modified Aristo unit (you can pick up cheap), or the Train-Li one (modified Aristo) for $45.

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

There are many solutions to his question...and the Massoth is more money because it has the board built into it so he could use a simple and cheaper sound decoder with a Susi interface to accomplish what he wants. 
I suggest you take the time to read the online manual for the Massoth unit to expand your vocabulary beyond QSI.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Remember that when getting the decoder with motor/lights/sound /smoke control, the engines do perform with an idle setting, cruising and accelerating setting for the chuff and for the heater element.
The Zimo diesel project even goes through a start up sequence where the diesel cranks over and revs up creating a blast of smoke with the sound and then settles down to an idle.
I do not believe you can do this with the Phoenix and an added smoke control board and the Phoenix definitely costs more than the Zimo I am using. Plus I get 4 servo controls which I did use 1 for the kadee uncoupling (1 kadee coupler/chain and $4 servo).


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I'm well aware of what the Zimo can do Dan...I have a 695kv in my SD40-2 doing exactly what you describe, but the analog performance of a DCC sound decoder is not nearly as good as it is in digital mode. Starting voltage has to be higher for example, which is why LGB used to put in the inhibitor for use in analog operation so you would get the lights and sounds before motion started. Of the sound decoders I've tried, the Massoth has the best analog operation by far, and the sounds start at the lowest voltage. I'm not saying a sound decoder isn't the best solution, just throwing some other options out there and making sure they know the limitations.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

CCR: I don't need to read the manual.

I try to present the best solution for the OP's request. I'm not suggesting QSI because I have beta tested for them, I presented Zimo and QSI because I think they are a better solution for the request.

Again, what did the OP want? It's pretty clear, he wants to save money or complexity or both... YOU re-read the OP's post please.

So, how does a $123 smoke unit, and even a crappy $100 sound board and the time and money to install a chuff trigger make a better solution than a decoder for under $200 and a $45 smoke unit?

Even with a crappy sound board it's not a better idea in my opinion.

Get a good sound only board like a Phoenix and it's even a worse idea to spend $123 on a smoke unit.

I think that the QSI is a better solution here for DC, because you can control the bell and whistle on DC just by using the direction switch on your DC power supply, but that might not be needed.

So, there's facts and numbers, and my best interpretation of the OP's request.\

So, instead of accusing me of being stupid or incapable of reading, try using facts to present an argument for the most helpful solution for the OP... isn't that the point?

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

gigawat,
Wish you had a real name. Anyway I would also be interested in your circuit board and how it would inerface with a Phoenix P8 chuff trigger. Are you planning on selling these boards?


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

jimtyp said:


> Nice work Gigawat!
> 
> I have a couple of B'mann K-27s that I'd like to get a sync'd chuff & puff. I run Phoenix sound. I use the optical sensor in the K-27 to trigger the Phoenix sound chuff. Will that work with your unit?
> 
> ...


I too am using a Phoenix Sound unit with my Bachmann C19! I am using the Bachmann Chuff sensor line to control my Phoenix sound as well as my little Chuff 'n Puff Pcb! ;-)


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Paul Burch said:


> gigawat,
> Wish you had a real name. Anyway I would also be interested in your circuit board and how it would inerface with a Phoenix P8 chuff trigger. Are you planning on selling these boards?


My name is Jameel... sorry, I never use my real name has handles on forums. I guess it is an old habbit from the old old days of bulletin boards.

I do plan on selling these things. I am just finishing the software and doing some testing. I should have them available with a few other little products I am working on. 

I am going to put a little website together to explain this stuff in more detail. www.HobbyTechnologies.com, an email address is posted on the "still under construction" web page.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

East Broad Top said:


> Gigawat, that's pretty slick! I'd be interested, too, if you were to offer this commercially.
> 
> Something to ponder...
> 
> ...



That is a very cool idea! It is all software for me! I designed the PCB so that I can vary the speed of the fan as well as adjust the voltage going to the heating element. 

I am planning on making a lot of these adjustments via the USB / PC application. For guys who want all of this special stuff! But out of the box it should do what I show in my videos.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Yes, that is the point Kevin, that the smoke output is synced to the chuff contacts AND the sound.
> 
> Of course you can add this board and have a sound unit that takes a trigger input for chuff and then connect both the sound card and this board to synchronize.
> 
> ...


Just wait... my remote control hardware is soon to be published.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

trainstrainstrains said:


> I visited the color organ page Toddalin , very interesting and only $13, because it's a kit, I do not have the knowledge to make this work.
> It also makes me think Gigawat could easily sell his little invention in kit form also, keeping the price low and simply printing the instructions and packing them with the components.


The parts that I use are extremely small surface mount components and some parts have their pads underneath. I would not think it would be fun to try to solder these by hand. That is why I purchased my own surface mount pick and place assembly line to do it. Check it out in action: 




I think it is more fun to just buy the little board and solder up the wires and start seeing your engine puff smoke! What do you think?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trainstrainstrains*
> _I visited the color organ page Toddalin , very interesting and only $13, because it's a kit, I do not have the knowledge to make this work.
> It also makes me think Gigawat could easily sell his little invention in kit form also, keeping the price low and simply printing the instructions and packing them with the components._
> ...


Well I think what you've done is pretty cool! Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with!

Keith


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellent Jameel! My preference is for a complete board, not a kit, unless the cost difference is significant.

-Jim


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks good! 

Currently i am testing the aristocraft smoke unit with a 47 ohm 7watt resistor ,the resistor is separately wired parallel with the speed control (only the fan on the aristo works/the thermal shut off is not working )
the smoke output has doubled ! If i can rewire the thermal shut off and get the fan to pulse with the sound in sync
i'll be happy (fan 5volt heating element up to 21 volt)


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

You could use my little board to control you custom smoker!


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Let it roll!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Greg, Toddalin, nice if you would both post here the electrical schematics of your personal solutions to the synchronized shuff puff sufficiently clearly so that a layman could easily construct them.

This is getting rather complex with Thomas Jefferson and all.

I am learning from all this that there are a few different products on the market to choose how to synchronize sound and smoke, also that I'm not the only one who is in the situation of not wanting to throw away recently bought and meticulously installed sound cards that not being the best do work. That therefore would prefer at least for the time being an inexpensive solution that would enhance the equipment we already have.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

TTT:

The electrical schematic for the solutions are the standard connections of a fan and heater to the decoder, this goes for the Zimo and the QSI, they are directly connected to the decoder. 

If you already have a meticulously installed sound card already, (and had mentioned such), I would have suggested a different solution, one that worked with the sound card.

You can visit my site to see how a smoke unit is wired to the QSI Titan (use the search box with "QSI Titan")

Dan can give the best recommendations on the Zimo, although I have used them, and have several myself with good results.

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

As I mentioned before, since you have a sound card all you need is a Massoth pulsed smoke maker hooked to the same chuff trigger your Phoenix uses. With the exchange rate right now they are a very reasonable. Have a look through the online manual on the Massoth website, in the download section, and it will show you how to hook it up and what you can expect. To me that route is the simplest and best option for you.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

*Chuff 'n Puff PCB Connection Guide*

I just put together a simple connection guide showing how easy it is to use my little Cuff 'n Puff PCB. In the advanced settings you can adjust what the max voltage you want to go to the heating element. You can adjust a few other things too... I am just not done with that part yet. My goal is to have a little website setup quickly so that these can be purchased. I have heard a lot of people asking for kits of this little board. Unfortunately it is very difficult to hand solder parts this small. I think just buying a completed / tested little board will be more fun at the end. Everybody has something they enjoy about this hobby... some people like the scenery, buildings / plants etc... I like designing and making little electronic things. When I built my outdoor layout and started running trains I found that a lot of things were either not available or not to my taste... so I made some cool little things. Since then I have had a lot of friends ask me if they could buy those things from me. Well... I guess it is time to make a little website to show them off. I have a domain called: www.HobbyTechnologies.com I will try to make a little website to showcase the few little things that I have made.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

So so far. Options for pulsed smoke with installed DC boards:
Massoth Pulse Smoke Generator $119
Gigawat's Board approx $35? + Zimo $45 = $80
(And maybe toddalin's idea?) Low voltage light organ kit $14 + Zimo $45 + resistors & diodes $1 = $60


PS.Afterthought. Perhaps just for fun with time I'll buy one of each.

Looking forward to Gigawat's web showcase!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> The parts that I use are extremely small surface mount components and some parts have their pads underneath. I would not think it would be fun to try to solder these by hand. That is why I purchased my own surface mount pick and place assembly line to do it.


 In case that video of the surface mount pick-and-place machine didn't give you a hint, let me comment that gigawat has a company that makes small electronic devices, and he is set up for prototyping with a small run of units, like this pcb. He's not just a hobbyist soldering up some stuff from Radio Shack.
(I know this because he lets me run my trains on his layout, and he sometimes sends me his stuff to test!)


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I tried the Massoth smoke unit option a few years ago, I was pretty disappointed in the smoke output. I remember trying a higher voltage to see if I could get more smoke and it fried the unit. I don't remember the details of what voltages I was using that ended up frying it. So maybe it's possible to up the voltage a tad and get more smoke. 

I'm interested in the Train-li, however, I've seen suggestions that it's just the old Aristo unit. The problem many folks had, including me, with the old Aristo is that it shut down after running even for a short period. Does anyone know if this is still an issue with the Train-li?

-Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

gigawatt (what is your real name? I know we have conversed before), I have a suggestion:

Add an "autochuff" feature to your board, and of course make it tunable (start voltage, top speed, etc, ).

Then add a "chuff trigger output" (which of course is probably an open collector to ground) that can trigger a chuff input to a sound board.

Now you have an inexpensive solution so the chuff sound is synced with the smoke fan and you can modulate the heater for speed too, and no chuff trigger is needed on the loco, and you use the USB to configure parameters.

So your board + $45 smoke unit (Train-Li modified Aristo) + $120 on the Dallee sound card.

What do you think you can sell your board for? To make this effective it's got to be in the $35 range, much more and the $200 Zimo and QSI beat the pants off the $123 sound card. (There are even cheaper sound only cards but they are terrible in comparision).

You need to make your board and a sound card cost less than $200... it's going to be tough.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> Greg, Toddalin, nice if you would both post here the electrical schematics of your personal solutions to the synchronized shuff puff sufficiently clearly so that a layman could easily construct them.
> 
> This is getting rather complex with Thomas Jefferson and all.
> 
> I am learning from all this that there are a few different products on the market to choose how to synchronize sound and smoke, also that I'm not the only one who is in the situation of not wanting to throw away recently bought and meticulously installed sound cards that not being the best do work. That therefore would prefer at least for the time being an inexpensive solution that would enhance the equipment we already have.



The link provided the schematic. It would be a matter of connecting the unit at the speaker and using the smoke unit as the "light."

Personally, I would first try using track power instead of a battery. Because the unit accepts both a/c and d/c, it shouldn't need rectification and because it can take 24 volts, there shouldn't be a concern about over-powering it. Maybe there is "effect" even with less than 12 volts on the input.

Alternatively, an on-board battery could power the unit and smoke generator so the smoke output remains constant regardless of track voltage and only the chuff/puff rate changes with speed.

But I still think the easiest (and certainly the cheapest) way to do this is to use a 3 volt relay with two AA batteries to power it. The relay would be activated off the chuff reed switch, or you could set up a reed switch/magnet assembly on a wheel/axle. The relay contacts would let full power flow to the smoke generator and a "by-pass" resistor would allow for the unit to "stay warm" when full power is not flowing.

You _can/should be able to_ simultaneously use a chuff reed/leaf switch to trigger both the sound system and relay providing that you use the batteries because this is akin to running the system through a common ground.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> an inexpensive solution that would enhance the equipment we already have


 I think you'll find gigawat is making an inexpensive solution to enhance HIS equipment.
If you want something different, I'm sure he'd be happy to re-program/re-build it, for a price. He's a bit busy with other real products, etc.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*This is clever straightforwatd and simple.*

Toddalin wrote :
I still think the easiest (and certainly the cheapest) way to do this is to use a 3 volt relay with two AA batteries to power it. The relay would be activated off the chuff reed switch, or you could set up a reed switch/magnet assembly on a wheel/axle. The relay contacts would let full power flow to the smoke generator and a "by-pass" resistor would allow for the unit to "stay warm" when full power is not flowing.

You _can/should be able to_ simultaneously use a chuff reed/leaf switch to trigger both the sound system and relay providing that you use the batteries because this is akin to running the system through a common ground.[/QUOTE]

Will it work? If you sketch the circuitry photograph and post it I'll build it.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Hi Jameel,

Your board look just like what I need as well, count me in for a few once you get some production units.

Fantastic addition for loco's that already have sound installed (read that as a sunk cost for those toting up $$).

Cheers
N


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi Greg, my name is Jameel. I really like your suggestions. I may be able to do everything you are asking with the current hardware. If not, when I re-spin the board, I can make some changes / additions. 
By the way, my background is:
Bio-Medical Engineer, specializing in Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Pre-Med. (University of Illinois Champaign Urbana Graduate) I own a product development company called Blue Sparq, Inc. and Rapid Keypads.com We design aerospace / military, medical, industrial and consumer products. I have all the equipment to make anything I dream up, from a 3D printer (a real one... not these gimicy toys), a 60 watt laser, full smt assembly line, mill, lathe, etc. etc. I run the latest PCB cad software called Altium Designer and SolidWorks 3D mechanical CAD software. Everything we do is state of the art and I don't mess around... I don't need to make money doing this, my company takes care of that. Making little electronic / mechanical things is fun for me... That is the part of this hobby that I love!
Here is a video of my new outdoor layout in action:


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Beautiful outdoor layout, in very good taste, the combination of banana trees , tropical plants, water over stone, suspended track and bridges makes a very original tropical layout. The real steam beauty looks like a little king on your track. Congratulations on this.
I'm going on a trip for over a month , when I return I'll order a puff & shooo card. Merry Christmas in sunny Florida.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I already like him, his avatar is a speedometer from the original Mini.

Greg


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm thinking that's a VW Bug as it appears to be a VDO and not a Smiths, also the dashboard looks VW-ish and not Mini-ish.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

**** Habilis said:


> I'm thinking that's a VW Bug as it appears to be a VDO and not a Smiths, also the dashboard looks VW-ish and not Mini-ish.


 _Talk about going off-topic!_
I can confirm it is a pale blue Bug - I think he restored it a few years ago. It sits next to an original Delorean.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Whoops, yep, the grill right next to it does come from a bug... oh well...

Greg


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