# How does Accucraft Choose its Models?



## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

I was thinking today, and simply out of curiosity - does anyone actually know how Accucraft goes about choosing what models it makes?

Now I do know that some of the models Accucraft markets and manufactures are not designed by them. For instance the T1 is designed by Jerry Hyde along with the Royal Hudson.

But what about the others?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I started the Masonbogie project along with David Fletcher who did all the artwork and model research and engineering for the MLS Masterclass. On a recent project we are working with Accucraft in building a 7/8ths loco modeled after the Fairymead 0-4-2. 

I know many of the SP standard gauge locos were Cliffs desire to build. 

I know others are working with Accucraft on various projects of rolling stock including myself.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Good question. 
Probably no good, or one, answer. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Jason-- 

I am glad to know that you are working on the Fairymead and did the Mason Bogie ! Those are two sweet looking little engines. I think 7/8" scale may get going more with your latest. 

Could you tell the story of how you got the Mason Bogie from a thought to a product? I understand that you started with making some highly detailed scratch built electric models. Did you contact Accucraft about going live steam or visa-versa? Did you make patterns for the parts and design the entire thing or just give them good prototype drawings?


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

I would also like a little more insight into how that all works Jason if you wouldn't mind.

Sure wish I had the type of skills required to do this type of work, so many locomotives I would love to see built.


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## bertiejo (Aug 11, 2008)

I have a theory about US prototype models. Accucraft USA is located in the San Francisco Bay Area and many of its live steamers are either Southern Pacific (San Francisco was SP's headquarters) or Union Pacific prototypes. I grew up in SF and am old enough to remember Cab Aheads, Daylight GS-4's, 0-6-0 SP switchers etc and UP also had a big presence here. Northern California with its vast timber stands also had more Shays then any other region. bertiejo


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 25 Aug 2012 09:55 AM 
Jason-- 

I am glad to know that you are working on the Fairymead and did the Mason Bogie ! Those are two sweet looking little engines. I think 7/8" scale may get going more with your latest. 

Could you tell the story of how you got the Mason Bogie from a thought to a product? I understand that you started with making some highly detailed scratch built electric models. Did you contact Accucraft about going live steam or visa-versa? Did you make patterns for the parts and design the entire thing or just give them good prototype drawings? 
Eric, the story of the Mason-Bogie is quite nice. It all started after I wrote a passionate posting here on MLS with a title 'is there life after 4-4-0' Unfortunately, I think this posting is no longer available in the archives. In that posting I suggested that MLS starts a project together with Accucraft using Master Class M-B experience and designs. The posting got some people interested - among others Jay, who started collecting names of the people who would potentially buy the engine. There were also people who said that this project will never work;-)... Fortunately, they were proven wrong! But this was a less usual way to get a model done with Accucraft. As for generic way to start a new project with Accucraft - for the UK, the UK importer, Ian Pearse, chooses his prototypes, for Germany, this is done by Lorenz Schug. In the US, standard gauge was I believe for a large part done by Jerry Hyde, but the models such as Allegheny and Big-Boy are most likely Accucraft's owner personal choices as are majority of the narrow gauge US models. Best wishes from Kazan, Zubi


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ChaoticRambo on 25 Aug 2012 10:30 AM 
I would also like a little more insight into how that all works Jason if you wouldn't mind.

Sure wish I had the type of skills required to do this type of work, so many locomotives I would love to see built.

There is another way, similar to the Mason Bogie project. A few years ago, the Carolwood Soc (Disney RR fans) wanted a model of the Fort Wilderness locos that they had just 'liberated' from the disney storage yard. Accucraft was willing to make an FWRR 'Ruby' variant if they could sell 50+ units. Carolwood started collecting names, and one of their members stepped up and underwrote the first 50 units. Had they not all sold, he would have been stuck with them! As it turned out, they sold 175 units so everyone was happy, (except the folk who wanted one but forget to order one.)

And there are at least 2 if not 3 other manufacturers in China and elsewhere who will make a steam loco for you, to your specs. The UK guys are having electric and live steam locos made for them - a 2-6-4T from WuHu for example. I once investigated getting a brass model made, and it required a large up-front deposit for the first pilot model, then a reasonable $ amount per unit thereafter. 

So you just need to work out how many are going to sell, and put your money down . .


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds like we here on this forum could get one made...if only we could choose one engine to have built.


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 26 Aug 2012 05:54 PM 
Sounds like we here on this forum could get one made...if only we could choose one engine to have built. 
I don't think that would happen to be honest!

With so many locomotives out there, getting enough people to agree on one to purchase may be tough.

Although I think anyone even remotely a fan of narrow gauge would like to see the pinnacle of large narrow gauge - a Sumpter Valley Mallet


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By ChaoticRambo on 26 Aug 2012 06:24 PM 

With so many locomotives out there, getting enough people to agree on one to purchase may be tough.

i don't know, i'm pretty easy.
as long as it hasn't been done before.


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

I wounder if we could get like a sub-forum for the live steam forum where people could pitch ideas and see how much interest there is for locomotives.

This could also be a great way for the companies that make the locomotives see what type of locomotives people are generally looking for.


Could be really good way to connect people interested in the same locomotive that might collectively have the skills required to get one made.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi has it pretty good, we started just as how many people really would buy a Mason, And at what reasonable price. Orignally I figured 2500-3000 price range for what "we" wanted the loco to be. Going with that for the next year about I had promoted the loco and the possibility that it could be built though no manufacturer had been approached yet. Once I had about 30 names from various places I started to talk to Accucraft. I now know to deal direct with the people that make things happen, Cliff, Bing and Charlie. With the information that David Fletcher did for the masterclass and David on board with the project I got enough interest from Accucraft that it was becoming more reality. Biggest hurdles were not even close. It took many more months to figure out how things could be done and what are better ways to make the loco perform reasonablly. Without David doing a lot of Accucrafts work for them it would not of seen the light of day as you see it today. You most likely would of seen a red Breckenridge as a 2-6-6-light.....


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 26 Aug 2012 03:18 PM There is another way, similar to the Mason Bogie project. A few years ago, the Carolwood Soc (Disney RR fans) wanted a model of the Fort Wilderness locos that they had just 'liberated' from the disney storage yard. Accucraft was willing to make an FWRR 'Ruby' variant if they could sell 50+ units. Carolwood started collecting names, and one of their members stepped up and underwrote the first 50 units. Had they not all sold, he would have been stuck with them! As it turned out, they sold 175 units so everyone was happy, (except the folk who wanted one but forget to order one.)


Pete, in fact Fort Wilderness project and the follow up - the 4-4-0 became an inspiration for me when I wrote 'is there life after 4-4-0' posting. But Mason-Bogie turned out to be an incredibly complex project. The result is a locomotive which is probably sold below the actual cost for Accucraft. It is really both a beautiful and well designed and executed machine. They were all sold out long before release date. Sadly, the worldwide economic turmoil apparently led to mass cancellations. So you can still buy them from Accucraft. I hope, when world and especially the US economy wakes up, Accucraft will also make another, more modern variant of the Mason Bogie, it was originally on the list of planned versions but had to be sacrificed. The ones which stayed were definitely the best choices. Best wishes, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By ChaoticRambo on 26 Aug 2012 06:24 PM 
[...]Although I think anyone even remotely a fan of narrow gauge would like to see the pinnacle of large narrow gauge - a Sumpter Valley Mallet

Chaotic Rambo, here is your chance. In five years time, we might see economy pick up again. So here is your chance to start collecting the names, you only need 30 names and you might be able able to convince Bing to make one. The idea has already been around for some time, please check this posting: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/116427/afv/topic/asg/4/Default.aspx So just go ahead like Jay did five years ago! Best wishes from Kazan, Zubi PS you have my name on the list already so you only need 29 more;-)...


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

The Mason Bogie project was indeed a special case, and it was a great pleasure to work with Accucraft in particular Ada Ho at the time to see this through from drawings to 3D model. 
It did come out of our Mylargscale Masterclass on the Mason Bogie, with many of the drawings and decal/decoration work used. Basically I provided the prototype historical design drawings of the loco and the liveries, as well as the paint samples to match. Others helped Accucraft work out the model engineering aspect, which I had little imput, since this is not my area of expertise. I know Zubi and others helped in that area and made a difficult model very successful.

I wrote some background about it on a post here at MLS when my own models arrived, there is also a link from that post to the models built during the Masterclass and a direct comparision between my hand made Mason Bogie prototype I built for the Masterclass 2002-2004 and the final Accucraft version, which was increadibly close. My black #42 Mason Bogie was the one livery that got dumped early on due to lack of interest, and an intent to run just two liveries. Most people wanted fancy, so we gave them fancy, but done to reflect Mason's real work, as opposed to the fantasy land liveries that Mason Bogies are often modelled in! Heres the link to the that post, you might find it enjoyable: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...spx#216762

Back to the topic, it has been my great pleasure to work on several models with Accucraft, and I've always found them to treat the history and prototype with the greatest respect, and pull out all stops to get it right. There's prototypical detail stuff I've ask for on models I didn't expect them to buy into, yet they still made every effort to include everything I ever suggested. I've done liveries for the live steam 2-6-0s, did the liveries for the 4-4-0s (exluding the red SPC 4-4-0, but that another story). My real historical 4-4-0 liveries were Col. Boone and Grass Valley. For the 2-6-0s my first livery was Nevada. Once we'd warmed Accucraft up to the idea of Victorian paint colours and decoration, I then hit them with the D&RG Poncha 2-6-0, which was a whole new level of livery detail and accuracy. That one model is still the most accucrate Baldwin historical victorian livery in Accucraft's stable. Others are great and close, but not like Poncha. Close behind that one is Col Boone and Grass Valley. I also did the RGS #11 paint scheme for the 2-6-0, which was an 1890s livery, with yellow painted lettering known as 'colour' rather than gold paint. 

Then we did the DSP 2-8-0s, #51 and #191, both darn good liveries. For these models I did the details, plumbing and liveries, while Accucraft measured the frame and boiler from the real engine. We also had the erection card. So for that model I helped with the prototype format from the historical perspective, as well as the liveries. We also did some drawings for SPC #13, but that one will have to wait for another day when times are better. 
And then we did the Mason Bogie, which was entirely drawings and liveries from me, from a Historical standpoint. On all of the above models I worked very closely with Ada Ho, (who's now left Accucraft), but boy did she work hard, and many late nights too translating by many critic words to Chinese.

Since then I've provided some other project ideas that have not seen the light of day, and we now have the 7/8 0-4-2T Fairymead, where I drew the loco drawings and livery, as well as provided loads of photos of the prototype. 
There is another loco in the works too, which we shall hear about soon, which I did loco drawings and liveries. 

There appear to be many ways a loco comes into being at Accucraft. 
First and foremost, Accucraft have their own plan and ear on the market, and frankly look at what they've built since 1997...thats a class act line up. They really have attemped to build what people want. No crazy seudo freelanced Mexican origin 2-8-0s, or freelanced 2-6-6-2Ts, why bother when there is plenty of good stuff that did exist and people want! 

2nd form appears to be a group that go to Accucraft with 50 orders - it was indeed said a few years back that they would make anything you asked for, so long as there was a min 50 model order. Thats hour the Carolwood Pacific guys got the FWRR 2-4-2, both in steam, and later in electric done, as well as the matching coaches, as well as the increadibly fine 1:24 scale electric Lilly Belle, which later lead to the idea of the live Steam Baldwin 4-4-0, which was originally championed by Carolwood. They also did the Kalamazoo hand cart in 1:20.3. All of those Carolwood models were championed by Michael Campbell. 

I'm not sure if the 'Custom Model Products' guys do a 50 order thing for their models too. 

Then there is the good idea guys like Jason, who go to the right people at Accucraft with an idea, a potential list of names to say there is a future with a certain model, and then come to me about drawings and filling in the prototype stuff. 

Models get off the ground much faster and easier if you have a champion that can do a lot of the work in advance. A good set of well researched drawings and photos handed over as a package will always help the most. I have no doubt they get daily emails from people demanding this model or that, and just hand over a photo or a really bad drawing from some hobby magazine, where the guy draw the loco with his eyes closed. You need to do better than that. A good set of researched drawings includes tracking down the original specs, erection drawings and card etc - get the real thing, not some messed around drawing scaled from a photo. 

I find it best to advise them on what the real engine actually was, and then let Accucraft engineer a model from there. They have good staff on the team that take your drawings and turn them into a set of 3D drawings for review. They turn them around quite quikly too. From there it takes several back and forth of drawings over several months as the model is refined and detail errors painstakingly removed. Then they make the first running sample and that is again reviewed and comments returned before the final comes out. Theres always the odd thing we missed, or a small compromise between real prototype and model due to model constraints or functionality. But all up they put in a huge effort to get it right. 

Ultimately however, it is up to Bing, the owner of Accucraft, to feel comfortable with the suggestions, and have trust in the work submitted is up to scrutiny of the world - boy are there critics and self proclaimed experts out there that can hammer Accucraft if a model is not accurate. There is a group they use that they do trust to get it right as far as prototype advice and engineering advice is concerned. But at the end of the day Accucraft will always make what they want to make. I think their choices have been very good to date. 

Hope this helps, 
David.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ChaoticRambo on 26 Aug 2012 06:24 PM 
Although I think anyone even remotely a fan of narrow gauge would like to see the pinnacle of large narrow gauge - a Sumpter Valley Mallet


Its something that I have spoke to Cliff about a few times. I have all the erection drawings for the loco. Bing a long time ago started to think about it but as it would of been their first atriculated loco it was put off. Now with the Cabfoward and Mason Bogie its more doable, though we are loooking at one of their most expensive narrow gauge locos ever build. What woud you pay? 4k? 5k? 7k? Im not sure what it would be but Im guessing around about a 750.00 less then the cabfoward as that is about the price of a tender. Then the big issue is the min radius, in scale the loco would run on I think a 4.75' radius. That is a lot of swing for a 3' long loco. 

I think we have some time before one of these is built but I do hope they finally start to think about it again in the upcoming years. If not they will get a few nudges and a potential list and see whats happens.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jay, they did the NGG16 as their first articulated locomotive long time before the Cab-Forward. The Garratt was not cheap. In fact, I believe that the Uintah/SV could be priced about the same. Yet, the demand for the Garratt was enormous - Ian re-released the locomotive two times after the first limited edition run;-)... And not only all got sold out, it is also a highly sought after locomotive now. Even though it was not without problems. I believe that Bing will make the Uintah/SV unless the world will come to an end prematurely. There is simply no other way to go after the string of the engines they rolled out already. I do not think there is any problem with the minimum radius. The prototype negotiated most ridiculously small radius. Best, Zubi


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Assuming the Sumpter Valley version (because a working tender will give more space for a butane tank or alcohol) I would probably expect it to run around 6-7k, no more expensive than the big boy.

Anyway, that is besides the point.

Very interesting reading the different ways an engine can go from the ideas of an individual to a real locomotive. Unfortunately my life is only getting more busy with less time to learn a new skill, so I will just have to live with whatever models Accucraft decides to manufacture.

Thanks for all the info everyone!


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