# How important is scale?



## TPP1776 (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm new to model trains, but built all kinds of scale models as a kid. I have a 3D printer and have started business designing and making 3D printed accessories and scenery for dioramas and large scale trains. 
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-Is it okay to use G Scale (1:22.5) items for 1:20.3(Fn3) & 1:24 scaled items, or should everything be to exact scale?
-Is G Scale more popular than Fn3 and/or 1:24?
*
I ask this because I'm looking to get a booth at a train show and will need inventory on hand. It would be easier to stock all of one scale, however I wouldn't want to lose a sale because all I had on hand was the wrong scale. It also makes my website and inventory easier if I can get away with using 22.5 as a default scale to cover the needs of 3 scales.

Any input would be appreciated, thank you.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Much better to have things to a specific scale.
I suspect that 90% of your potential sales would only be in three scales:

1/20.3 (narrow gauge steam)
1/29 (standard gauge steam and diesels)
1/32 (standard gauge steam and diesels)

To a lesser extent: 1/13.7, 1/22.5, 1/24.

I dont think one "generic" scale would work at all..
the people who want detail parts in the first place are the kind of people who would absolutely want them in a specific scale!  thats the niche of the hobby you want to go after, the scratch-builders and super-detailers.

You would really only need two "product lines" though..Narrow gauge and Standard gauge.
Narrow gauge could be all 1/20.3 scale, period.
then the standard gauge parts can be the same parts, but printed in two scales, 1/32 and 1/29.

Scot


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

that depends, on what it is.

figures and, for instance, metal oil drums should be to scale. (everybody has the expectation that they "fit".
as should be shovels, tables, chairs, bottles, beer crates.

but a, let's say, pumpkin in 1:22.5 will serve for 1:20 or 1:25 as well.
or wooden barrels. even a H0 barrel can be used in a 1:22 general store.

generally speaking, from personal experience i can say, don't go for the smaller scales. or do you have a professional printer? (printing layers of less than 0.1 mm)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

To me or you?
I came to this scale excited about the fine scale possibilities until the practicality of the 10' rule came into play ...
I have 10' Diameter curves and thought 1:29 looked too big and the overhang of longer cars looked toylike to me. My visual correction was to go smaller with 1:24 and Aristo's Classic Line. I see a turn of the century (1900) railroad and I could give a rat's patooie about the gauge because my primary purpose is to have fun. When that fails, I fall back on Rule #1. 
1/32 is another option, but more expensive.

John


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## TPP1776 (Feb 28, 2017)

kormsen said:


> that depends, on what it is.
> 
> figures and, for instance, metal oil drums should be to scale. (everybody has the expectation that they "fit".
> as should be shovels, tables, chairs, bottles, beer crates.
> ...


Thanks for the input, what you posted is the way I was leaning.Natural items aren't really scale dependent but man made items would be.

I'm focusing on scenery and accessories. Log frick/lumber mill stuff, watermill, graveyard, building materials (doors & windows), etc. My machine only goes down to .1mm but I use .2mm typically, works fine especially for giving a wood look.

I'm only focusing on Fn3/G scale (and also doll scales 1:12 & 1:16) since some items even at G scale are extremely small, beer bottles and whiskey bottles come out to be about .5" high by .15" dia.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Take a look at a REAL mixed freight train today, the size of cars is all over. Maybe more when they were manufactured.

Look at a crowd of people, all shapes and sizes.

I believe scale is way over emphasized.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

TPP1776 said:


> ... My machine only goes down to .1mm but I use .2mm typically, works fine especially for giving a wood look.
> 
> I'm only focusing on Fn3/G scale (and also doll scales 1:12 & 1:16) since some items even at G scale are extremely small, beer bottles and whiskey bottles come out to be about .5" high by .15" dia.



mine (daVinci AiO) does not better than .2mm.
if you take a look over here:
http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/24939/3d-adventures
you can see the limitations with printing smaller stuff.

so, to me, it seems a wise decision to stay with 1:20.3 and 1:22.5.


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## boodle (Mar 1, 2017)

I think it's OK to mix scales, but usually not in close proximity. I have some 1:29 buildings that are next to 1:22.5 buildings and I built a "foundation" and changed out the doors because the size difference was pretty noticeable. I also have a 1:32 scale car, which I've placed far away from the railroad's viewing point for forced perspective. It looked wildly wrong near to the 1:24 scale cars in my town (it's almost 30% off). 

On the other hand, for some things it can work. For example, I have some 1/24 dollhouse furniture that is a restaurant patio set and has some 1:22.5 people seated there. The furniture is ~10% off in scale to the people... but people come in all shapes and sizes, the scene is about 10 feet from the edge of the layout, and you can't really tell. 

I think you'll find that there are both 10' modelers (like John and myself) and people who really place a lot of importance on getting everything exactly right.


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## TPP1776 (Feb 28, 2017)

kormsen said:


> mine (daVinci AiO) does not better than .2mm.
> if you take a look over here:
> http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/24939/3d-adventures
> you can see the limitations with printing smaller stuff.
> ...


Not to get off subject, but...

I built my machine from a $300 kit, it's a RepRapGuru Prusa I3, because I like to build stuff and understand exactly how it works. Took longer to set up than a bought one but I know what makes it run and also the software part of it and modifying the parameters to get custom settings. Also I'm able to upgrade from thread rods to lead screws which will further improve quality. Took me about a week or so to get my final settings right for PLA, still haven't used ABS.

I have a coworker who has a DaVinci and his prints don't compare to mine in quality, don't know if he has his settings wrong or what. Don't DaVinci's also require special filament spools or something? Do you use PLA or ABS?

I see your post in the other forum is from a year ago, so hopefully you have solved the issues by now. Here's a helpful link for various kinds of print deformations: https://all3dp.com/common-3d-printing-problems-3d-printer-troubleshooting-guide/

It looks like some of the issues you were having was with support structures for overhangs. Depending on the slicer you're using as well as settings it can effect it greatly. I first started using Repetier Host and the support structures were almost impossible to remove. Try messing around with cura or different software until you find one that gives you easier to remove structures.

Another thing I've found is that some items to be printed are best if you break them up into multiple pieces and then glue them together. The downfall of the 3D printer is bridges/overhangs that can't be gapped and need support. I don't know how you printed your cannons but I would have broken it into pieces, 2 wheels, the carriage, and the barrel and then glued them together. That way you reduce the amount of support material produced. It will improve print quality, speed up print time, and reduce time you have to chop off the supports with a knife. On your covered wagon try to print the canvas top with no supports, your machine should be able to do that slight arch in with no supports.

Depending on how your machine is set up you might want to run another fan or add a duct to the existing extruder cooling fan to blow onto the print so it cools down immediately. This will allow you to bridge longer gaps with no supports.

Also try slowing down your machine, the print time will go up, but so will quality. I print at 40mm/s and the base layers are extruded at 20mm/s. .2mm layer thickness, Extruder 200^ (with a multiplier of 106%, I was having under extrusion issues), Bed 70^.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Admittedly i have not read through all the posts. With the many time this has come up the opinions and advice pretty much doesn't change cause and they're all pretty much right on. 

That said and at the risk of repeating what might have been said above. In the real world things evolved from smaller to bigger and back and forth for everything including railroads. Part of it attributed to service life. Economics drove a lot of the change, bigger could do more with less. 

Heck even people today are a lot taller and bigger than a hundreds and thousands of years ago, and we still have small people too. So there you are.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Treeman said:


> Take a look at a REAL mixed freight train today, the size of cars is all over. Maybe more when they were manufactured.
> 
> Look at a crowd of people, all shapes and sizes.
> 
> I believe scale is way over emphasized.


I agree.

In general I would suggest the OP just uses comon sense.
If an item (including people) occurs in nature in many different sizes, then one model of it can be used in a number of scales.
Also don't assume that the Large Scale item by a manufacturer is necessarily in the scale indicated.
And I wouldn't make anything in the common scales like 1:24 or 1:32 simply because there is tons of products available in those scales already unless of course you make something very unique.
I find in general 1:29 items to go with Aristocraft, USA Trains, etc. are most lacking.

Knut


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like you're 3d printing or 2d cutting parts for sale. If so, you have the cad files that you can scale accordingly. 

If that's the case, and since one has to draw the line somewhere, and semi-echoing Scott, I'd suggest 1:20.3 (big crowd), 1:24 (yes, there's some of us still out there) and 1:29 (Aristo crowd, right?). That seems a good spread of the math, and I'd think would cover most bases in the G-gauge market. 

Don't mean to dis any 1:32'ers, but I don't see much mention of that, at least here; and perhaps 1:29 would be ok enough for that, in some detail part situations. Don't mean to disparage1:22.5 (LGB) either, though I'd think that 1:20.3 or 1:24 would suffice. Since LGB used a rubber scale anyway from the get-go.

My 2 cents, only that,
Cliff


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

TPP,

thanks for the link. a quick look lets me think, that i will spend some time on that site.

DaVinci versus self built - for an old rancher and farmer like me, to assemble a mashine, that is measured in milimeters, not in thumbwidths is a horror vision.
my modeling mostly consists of eyesight estimating and cutting parts smaller and smaller, till i need a new, bigger piece to cut...
so a readymade and assembled printer was just my ticket.
the DaVincis are not the best, aparently. but just right for people like me, who don't want to spend much time on the hobby.
the "price" is, that one can not adjust many variables.

back to topic, as i wrote, the bigger, the better the results seem to me.

have you ever thought about making a master with the printer and then pour copies in resin? should lower production costs per item.


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## TPP1776 (Feb 28, 2017)

CliffyJ said:


> Sounds like you're 3d printing or 2d cutting parts for sale. If so, you have the cad files that you can scale accordingly.
> 
> If that's the case, and since one has to draw the line somewhere, and semi-echoing Scott, I'd suggest 1:20.3 (big crowd), 1:24 (yes, there's some of us still out there) and 1:29 (Aristo crowd, right?). That seems a good spread of the math, and I'd think would cover most bases in the G-gauge market.
> 
> ...


I have been, by default, printing everything at 20.3 because I like the bigger scale personally, and my stepdad who is big into trains has that scale as well.

When I design things in CAD I draw it full size and in the 3D slicer program scale it down. Also makes it easier if someone wants a different scale all I have to do is divide it.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Talking of scales!
I am a 1/32 person, because that's what I like and am used to.
A good local friend asked if I could make one of my 3D printed Canadian Pacific Platform Truck for him, but in 1:20.3 scale.
I said that I would see what happens.
One has to tweak the 3D model so that the printer can do it right, and things like axle holes need to be adjusted if one wants to continue using the same hardware etc..
Anyway, as I said being used to 1/32, printing this made me realize how HUGE 1/20.3 is!!!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## TPP1776 (Feb 28, 2017)

David Leech said:


> Talking of scales!
> I am a 1/32 person, because that's what I like and am used to.
> A good local friend asked if I could make one of my 3D printed Canadian Pacific Platform Truck for him, but in 1:20.3 scale.
> I said that I would see what happens.
> ...


That cart looks good.

If you think 20.3 is big try printing something for doll scales 1:12 and 1:16. They're huge! Even some of the medium size items I offer are too bid for my build platform. Also when you scale up on a 3D printer it exponentially raises the time and material/cost to build it since you aren't just increasing area, but volume.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Scale...

At work, we have a couple guys that literally check in at 7 foot plus - and they work side by side with four or five gals that have to stand on tiptoes to reach 5 foot. 

I've seen a few cars hereabouts that would literally fit in the back of a normal sized pickup truck - and are apparently driven by 'normal sized' people. 

As far as the models go...well a lot of the commercial kits are way undersized. Most of the piko/pola shops work out to about the same size as a smallish cabin. Same with the Bachmann buildings. 

Then again, years ago, I worked in a pizza joint that was so cramped it could have fit into a smallish cabin - as in under 300 square feet. (It was in a strip mall, but still). Other undersized eateries have sprung up hereabouts since then, often located in literal cabins. A couple even have tables for indoor dining.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

As easy as it is to 3D print stuff in different scales, I think I would make things where size matters (such as people, fire hydrants, doors, etc) in 1:20.7 and 1:32. Stuff that can be any size in any scale (such as windows and signs), I'd make in just one size and show how they work in any scale.


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