# hand laid turnout questions



## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

So I've decided to build some hand laid turnouts. I've built some before in N scale when I was building my N scale layout.

I've read thru some of the build threads on here in my research. And I've found/downloaded a turnout building program to play with. 

I started working on my first turnout and now have some questions about the points. I tried to file down the points in a similar manner of what I did with my N scale layout. But the points seem too thin to last. I've taken a close look at how LGB machines out a "pocket" in the main rails for the points to fit into.

I'm going to do a little playing with my drill pres and table to se if I can do something similar.

But I'd like to know how the rest of you are doing the switch points and how well they work. Pictures would be helpful as well.

Thanks for any and all help.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah, LGB have a definite step so the point rails go under the head of the outer rails.
The English brand Peco do the same but it is more of an angled bevel.
I have some hand made live steam points here that are ground back only on the foot of the rail and just nick slightly into the head. They look good, you could do it just with a file. I don't know who made them but I can take some close up pictures if you wish.

Andrew


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

That would be great if you could please.


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

Crusty,

Before buying my live steamer, I modeled in Proto48. There are a couple of suppliers who offer switch points that fit up against the rail per prototype. Llagas Creek Railways does also in codes 215 and 250. Here's a photo of their switch points. http://www.llagastrack.com/images/CastPoints.gif. They also sell cast frogs for same size rail. These are cast in nickel silver. I plan on using both the points and frogs when I start my raised layout later this year.

Just remember to kink the curved stock rail for the point to fit into for the straight route otherwise you'll never get it to fit in gauge.

Hope this helps with your switch building.


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

*my switches*

Hi,
Using code 250 brass to build my turnouts,

More info at my post: http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-t...oadbed/26156-d-rgw-track-switch-building.html

Here some close ups




























TOM


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

HampshireCountyNarrowGage said:


> Just remember to kink the curved stock rail for the point to fit into for the straight route otherwise you'll never get it to fit in gauge.


The one's I have are not kinked, I think that is what the slight 'nick' is for. 
It is hard to make space for something that is infinitely small.

Tom, that is slightly more than a 'nick' but same deal.

Andrew


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I file my points (code 215) and don't have a problem without making a notch in the stock rail. 
This is the profile I try and make when filing.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Great input.

I'm currently using LGB .332 brass rail.

I remember putting a "kink" in my N scale rail which was easy. Guess I need to figure out a good way to do it in my G scale rail if I can't get another method to work.

Time to head to the shop tonight and do some practice with my new info.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I had to grab that image for my next turnout build.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Crusty Old Shellback said:


> Thanks everyone. Great input.
> 
> I'm currently using LGB .332 brass rail.
> 
> I remember putting a "kink" in my N scale rail which was easy. Guess I need to figure out a good way to do it in my G scale rail if I can't get another method to work.


Place the rail in a vice, grab the other end with a pair of pliers and give it a nice easy bend. Pretty simple.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

This turnout's point rails slightly nick into the stock rail head with no special shaping.
There is no kink in the diverging stock rail but you can clearly see the gauge widens at the points.
The lead distance from point to frog tip is 13". I guess the radius of the diverging track is about 6ft.
After having a closer look, the point rails could have been made another inch longer which would have reduced the gauge widening. The stock rail curves from end and the points are 2 inches from the end. 
































































Andrew


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Well last night I tried to machine in some "pockets" like what is done on the LGB switches. Not sure how it's going to turn out once assembled. But it was a pain to do. 

Andrew, thanks for the pictures. I may go pack to trying them the way you show. Is there any issue with the small "bump" at the points?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Crusty, I thought posting some pictures is good for all to learn including myself. It is an interesting subject and how all the manufacturers and builders do it slightly different. The little bump in the head of the rail is not that apparent. It shows up a lot more in the close up photos and lighting. When I run a pair of steel wheels past the bump surprisingly it is barely noticeable even when I load it to the side. I guess the tapering of the tread and the way it leads smooths all out.
Like I said above the turnout in the images could easily have the point rails an inch longer without having to make them any more acute. The stock rail goes a full 2 inches on the curve before the points start which leaves the wider gauge gap. I think this turnout design would work much better if the points were an inch longer.
You could also slightly kink the stock rail where the points start too like others have already said. 

The LGB point rails have a 'square' pocket in them as well as the stock rail so they mate together. Both have been machined. 
The Peco point rails are beveled 45 degree into it's stock rail pocket which has the same angle. 
If you used the correct shaped tool to do the stock rail pocket you could just use a file on the point rails.
These Peco points are very pointy and smooth without any gauge difference.
I'm now curious how the other manufacturers do it.

Andrew


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

After taking a close look at your switch, and thinking about the ones I'm working on, I think my biggest issue is the diverging track is not at enough of an agle. I started building a 1:6 raito switch but think I am going to redo it and make it a 1:4 or 1:4.25 so that it's a steeper angle and that would make my points no so thin.

That's where I'm having a bit of an issue and was looking at other ways of doing it. But now with the pictures and some thinking last night, I think I should go with the 1:4.25 which will give me a little over a 8' dia curve.

On a different note, has anyone ever tried disassempling say a LGB switch and recurving the rails for a different angle? I've got some switchs that are R1 for a 4' dia curve and was thinking could I take out the rails, rebend them to a 8' dia curve and stake them down to some new ties. May be something I'll play with later. I know I'd have to make my own frogs for them though which is no big deal.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no expertise at building track whatsoever, but I have a hunch that the angle of the switch frog would have a lot to do with whether one could change the curvature of the switch or not.

Hopefully someone with more experience can weigh in on that fact.

Regards,
David Meashey


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Dave, you are correct. The angle of the frog will dictate how much of a departure angle there is. But since I/we are building our own frogs, then I/we can set our angle.

I'm using templot Software for designing my switches and using that as a template for building them. I have used fast track jigs in the past when building my N scale switches. Same principal.

Andrew, I took some pictures today of a turnout here in one of the compounds where I work. Don't know why I didn't do that before. But they look really close to what you have done. The only difference I can see is that the switch points seem to be a smaller code rail and fit up inside of the main rails.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, that's what a turnout's ratio is. Based on the frog or departure track angle. The ratio of a theoretical right angled triangle. A real turnout does not usually curve past the frog. That is done on set track so a turnout can replace a curve section.

Andrew


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

OK, I got to play around with build my switches this weekend. Lots of fun.

For the frog point and guard rails, do you solder them all together or just drive in spikes on the out sides and that holds it all together? I've soldered the points of teh frog together but was thinking of trying to also solder teh guard rails on either side to the point as well as the two out sid guard rails on the main lines.

Pictures would be helpful.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in 2005, Fred started a thread called "first attempt at turnout building"
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/mikereilley/Track roadbed trestles bridges/turnout building.pdf (it's about 20 pages - somehow the PDF got a lot of blanks in it.)

In it we argued for quite a while about making points and frogs. I posted a bunch of images of how the PRR did it (from the PRR Standard Plans)
http://prr.railfan.net/standards/

In brief, the real guys made points by bending the rail upwards so it overlapped the foot of the stock rail. They then ground off the bit sticking up in the air (the rail head) using the thin web as the actual point. Pics are in that PDF. Here's one:










Personally, I always left the stock rails alone and ground/filed the point rails to fit snugly alongside. Like this:


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Here are a couple of more ideas that may, or may not, be of help!
The photos are of a turnout that I removed from my track that I am rebuilding, and has been down for about 15 years, hence it is looking a little tired!
I have always notched both tracks so that the switch blade can be left as straight as possible.
Also, for the nose of the point, I notch for the join about a half inch up, and then bend the actual nose so that when filed to a point, the entire 'web' is left intact for strength.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks for all the photos and help. I finally finishe dmy first turnout. While it could use a little tweaking, it works fine for my shelve layout. I'm now working on my second one, having more confidence now. Also using lessons I learned from making the first one.

Eventually I'll have them good enough to go on my out door layout I'm building.

Now on to the next project, switch stands and how to build them.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Garden Railways had a good article/drawings of making your own switches a few years back, might try to find those issues, two parter as I recall.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

I found half of it and used some of their ideas.

I have built turnouts in the past when I was building a N scale layout. I used a fast track style jig when building them that helped. I gained a lot of experience in building them that translated over.

One of the biggest lesson I learned was using a gauge to check the rails at each critical area. I have a buddy machining me one now since I can't seem to buy one. I had a NMRA N scale gauge when doing my N scale turnouts.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Crusty Old Shellback said:


> SAnd I've found/downloaded a turnout building program to play with.



Crusty, could you tell us the name of the turnout building software, and/or where you got it from?

thanks,


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

It's free software called templot. Seems to work good. Takes a little to understand how it works but after about an hour of playing around, I figured it out, so just about anyone should be able to do the same.

http://www.templot.com/


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

OK, I've now got 2 turnouts built using code 332 brass track. That's fine for my small indoor layout that I play with in the garage. And building these was just practice to see how well I could do.

So now it's time to move on to the real thing. Since brass is so expensive, I am looking at using code 250 alunimum for my out door layout. And since I'm going with battery power, no big deal.

But my question is this, for building the turnouts, do I use code 250 brass as I can easilt solider the frog points? Or is there some way, other than welding, to connect the frog points using alunimum?

What have others done? Thanks.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Crusty Old Shellback said:


> Or is there some way, other than welding, to connect the frog points using alunimum?
> 
> What have others done? Thanks.


I used JB Weld to build my frog. Code 215 aluminum.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Here's some pictures of my second switch. It came out a little better. But I still need to do some work to get the track gauge just right. The cut in the frog rails is because I'm running track power DCC right now, so I needed to isolate the rails. It seems to work fine. I use the switch points to power the turnout rails.


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## Grant_Kerr (Dec 7, 2013)

Andrew.
That turnout looks remarkably like a Number 4 Turnout. In fact I would bet on it. heheh.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Grant, the ratio of the frog is a wee bit more. Perhaps 4.25.

Andrew


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## Grant_Kerr (Dec 7, 2013)

A very early one too in the making of them and a pig to make.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I always wondered who made it! Melbourne eh?
I bought it yonks ago off Arthur in Dandenong but never got around to using it and it has been kicking around ever since.

Andrew


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, the turnout you picture was actually made many years ago by Grant. There was quite a variety of #'s available including double curved ones.
They last a long time.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I figured that Tony. Grant's Heheh was a dead giveaway and I sussed out Grant was from Melbourne.
I bought it when I was first getting into live steam and ended up with some track powered sparkies too so it was never used but I kept it because it was hand made.
They do last a long time. This one is as good as new!

Andrew


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