# Aristo Craft #20600 2-8-0 Consolidation Steam



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Thurs, June 23, 2011

Hi guys:

What is your opinion of the prototype selection for the #20600 2-8-0 Consolidation steam loco model?

Do you like the high seated boiler or would you have preferred a low seated USRA type boiler?

As a Canadian, my taste is for a low seated boiler.

What is the American taste? Why was a high seated boiler prototype selected by Aristo Craft?


Thank you

Norman


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Personally I like the lower-slung boilers. However the higher boiler is authentic in the fact that that style consolidation was the last of the design built, and there is at least one still in service today, currently down on the Western Maryland Scenic.

I'm partial to much smaller consolidations such as Arcade & Attica No.18 
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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman,

This is very subjective topic. 

First, there was no USRA 2-8-0. There were 0-6-0s, 0-8-0, 2-8-2, 4-6-2, 4-8-2, 2-8-8-2 designs. 

As for the prototype, I have no reason to find fault with it. It looks close enough to a Central New England 2-8-0 that became part of the New Haven roster (151-159) for me. 2-8-0's were around from what? 1870? until 1950? So, for a wheel arrangement that lasted for 80 years, I think the E-27 is an OK choice. 

The paint job on the B&O version I saw at the ECLSTS was excellent. The graphite smoke box with the blue and yellow B&O capital logo is quite striking. I was a bit disappointed when I learned that all the 2-8-0s would come with a high headlight. Not a big deal for me. If they make the New Haven version (and I can come up with the dough), I'll just move the headlight. 

Personally, I am glad that someone is listening and making smaller prototype steam. Who knows, perhaps they'll use this boiler to build us some high wheeled moguls, so I can have a CN 89, like the one I ride behind frequently at the Strasburg Railroad. While I do love my 2-8-8-2 Mallet, it doesn't look great hauling six freight cars. 

There are so many different 2-8-0s that were built that I think it would be very difficult to pick one that will make everyone happy. 

On a technical front, I am glad to see that an improvement has been offered for the attachment of the wheels to the axles. It also looks like a simple installation of the control system (revo for me) in the tender.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 23 Jun 2011 08:18 AM 
Norman,

2-8-0's were around from what? 1870? until 1950? So, for a wheel arrangement that lasted for 80 years, I think the E-27 is an OK choice. 

Most numerious wheel arrangement of all time..began as a heavy coal hauler, a slow heavy drag freight engine, in 1866.
one of the most powerful locomotives of its time:










Named after the merger, or "Consolidation" of the Lehigh Valley railroad with the Lehigh & Mahony Railroad.
(in reality it wasnt really a merger..it was simply the much smaller L&M being bought and absorbed into the much larger LV system.)

Consolidations had SUCH a long run, and had such a huge variety, that there really isnt a "typical" 2-8-0..
I would probably prefer a lower boiler as well, but I dont mind the high boiler..it "looks right", because it is! 
for that particular prototype..

Scot


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Consolidations had SUCH a long run, and had such a huge variety, that there really isnt a "typical" 2-8-0.." 

They included machines like the relatively light C16 narrow gauge 2-8-0s to the beefy D&H coal haulers and the Reading's I10sb Consolidations. (The I10sb was the prototype for the original Bachmann HO Consolidation.) The Reading machines were large enough to be the basis for a prototype kitbash. 25 I10sb locomotives were "bashed" into the T1 class 4-8-4s. New cast bed frames with integral cylinders were used for the T1 class, but the boilers came from the I10sb class - with the added boiler ring being supplied by Baldwin. The T1 class later became famous for pulling the Iron Horse Rambles and the eastern leg of the American Freedom Train. 

Have fun, 
David Meashey


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I told myself I would not buy anymore 1/29 but as one of my favorite roads, the DM&IR used a near identical engine I have no choice! I want to use the Consolidation to pull a string of ore cars (USA). 

The DM&IR's 2-8-0's had the high boiler so it's the "right" one for me. 


http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/DMIR198.JPG


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

At first I did not like the "look" with the gap below the boiler... but it's nice to have another steam loco, and to have one that looks different. After all the hullabaloo on the Aristo forum about prototypes, it's clear that this is an accurate model of a prototype. 

I've had mine on order since you could order them. 

More steamers are needed, and not everyone can run huge locos (although I still say someone needs to make a 4-8-4 heavy steam loco) 

Greg


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

And I still think the USRA 0-6-0 would be a good unit as [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Yes a USRA 0-6-0 would be welcome!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By fsfazekas on 23 Jun 2011 01:48 PM 
Yes a USRA 0-6-0 would be welcome! 

...which EPL had test shots of until things went south.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but the AML 0-6-0 is reasonably priced for a brass loco, pulls like a son of a gun, way higher detail, easily adapts to r/c, mounting posts for Phoenix and more... 

Yes, it's more than a plastic loco from Aristo, but what a loco, very popular, they are re-issuing it I believe. I got mine for $200 more than I am going to pay for my Consolidation! 

Greg


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## fred j (Jan 12, 2011)

I want to get a new Consolidation, But i think i will wait to see if Aristocrafts Quality on this item will be any good. So far they are batting '0' with me as far as problems with new engines.

Fred


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I looked at it many times at the convention, very well done. Even tho its the way they were. I can't get past the space. 
And I do like BIG steam, so I am happy with my Accu 0-6-0


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, as for the space, even our favorite local steam locomotive, Strasburg 90's boiler sits way too high off the frame. I mean, at this height, the hobos will be riding the axles.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree it's a very accurate model to prototype, and well executed in general. What I can't quite understand is the prototype. Why is the boiler so high? I assume it has something to do with increasing firebox capacity. But why not just enlarge the boiler as well?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

What I mean is, I don't understand the design choices in the protoptype. It's not required that you have the high boiler--the PRR H-8, H-9 and H-10 were very powerful consols that ran until the end of the steam era. The PRR had more than 1000 of them. They were notably close-spaced. Im sure there's a good reason,. I just don't know it


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The boiler is so high because it has to sit *on top* of the rear driver.. 

On early steam locos, like the 4-4-0, and early Moguls and early Consolidations, the firebox was placed *between* the drivers.. 
but as fireboxes got larger and wider, they could no longer fit between the drivers..and since the driver spacing couldnt get wider, the firebox had no where to go but up..The "high boilered consolidation" is simply an evolutionary step in the development of the steam locomotive. 
bigger firebox and bigger boilers sitting on top of the drivers equaled "high boilers" for a time.. 
generally speaking, the more modern (and larger) the consolidation, the higher the boiler.. 

the next evolutionary step was the 2-8-2 Mikado, which allowed the firebox to be placed behind the drivers, with the addition of a trailing wheel, which lowered the boiler back down again: 

The first Consolidation, (1866) firebox *between* the drivers: 


Much more modern Consolidation, much larger firebox, firebox can only fit *above* the drivers: 









Still a big firebox, but the creation of the 2-8-2 allows the big firebox to sit *behind* the drivers, lowering the boiler: 









Scot


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

The problem with growing the boiler diameter becomes one of visibility and clearances. The cabs could only get so wide, so as the boiler gets largerthe visibility out of the cab would get worse. That's why the Reading and other antrahcite roads developed the camelback.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 29 Jun 2011 07:29 AM 
Mike,

The problem with growing the boiler diameter becomes one of visibility and clearances. The cabs could only get so wide, so as the boiler gets largerthe visibility out of the cab would get worse. That's why the Reading and other antrahcite roads developed the camelback. 




Camelbacks were more a result of the large Wootten firebox, not large boilers..but yes, visability was also a factor.. Scot


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Camelbacks were hated by crews, freezing in winter and par-boiled in summer, they were cramped, uncomfortable, had serious communication problem between the engineer and fireman, and most of the time the poor fireman was left out in the elements to freeze or get soaked in rain. If the engine threw a rod or derailed the engineer was as good as dead. It became such a point of contention with the railroad unions that many of these Wootten boilered engines were eventually rebuilt with conventional cabs that were only just as wide as the boiler, made forward vision a bit more challenging but it far preferable to all the problems the camelback cabs created. 

It will be interesting to see who the first will be to extend the boiler a tad, add a driver and make a Russian out of this model. I saw one at the AC booth at the BTS, they are veeeery nice looking indeed.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic,

If you take a look at that SRR 90 photo above, I see the aristo consolidation in there! Even the drive wheels look about the same size. SRR 90 is bigger than the Russian 2-10-0s, though, if memory serves. But, it is pretty close nonetheless.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 29 Jun 2011 08:24 AM 
Vic,

If you take a look at that SRR 90 photo above, I see the aristo consolidation in there! Even the drive wheels look about the same size. SRR 90 is bigger than the Russian 2-10-0s, though, if memory serves. But, it is pretty close nonetheless. 


Thats what i saw too, methinks there a few bashes to be made out of this beasty


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok, I understand about the firebox needing to be over the wheels, but how does that explain the design of the H-8 thru H-10? The Belpaire firebox isn't wider, and it seems to be over the wheels in exactly the same way. The H-8 is about as modern as the 2-8-0 configuration gets--superheating, piston valves. The PRR was still building H-10s in 1917. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the design tradeoffs involved. Was there a gain in power from raising the boiler? In steaming rate? In the kind of coal you could burn?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 29 Jun 2011 09:24 AM 
Ok, I understand about the firebox needing to be over the wheels, but how does that explain the design of the H-8 thru H-10? The Belpaire firebox isn't wider, and it seems to be over the wheels in exactly the same way. The H-8 is about as modern as the 2-8-0 configuration gets--superheating, piston valves. The PRR was still building H-10s in 1917. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the design tradeoffs involved. Was there a gain in power from raising the boiler? In steaming rate? In the kind of coal you could burn? 

Looks like its simply a matter of different firebox/boiler designs.. the PRR Belpare firebox is clearly fully above the drivers..as is the firebox on the B&O 2-8-0 with the high boiler. the PRR firebox doesnt extend as far below the boiler as does the more "traditional" firebox on the B&O engine.. So the difference in boiler height is simply a matter of different boiler and firebox designs..nothing more mysterious than that!  both boilers are "as low as they can go" given the technology in question. Actually, its not really a difference in "boiler height" , its a difference in the gap between the drivers and the bottom of the boiler. the PRR forebox, for whatever reason, doesnt extend as far below the boiler as it does on the B&O engine.. So the B&O engine simply has more daylight above the drivers.. They probably couldnt make "the boiler fatter" because the boiler was the exact size it needed to be, to fit the firebox!  im sure the designers of the locomotive didnt care about the gap, it meant nothing to them. Locomotive designers *did* care about astehetics, but not at the expense of functionality. Scot


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

I found this page since I was curious about the answer : Firebox info

Since the firebox continued past the top of the boiler, the actual boiler could be a little bit lower. If you compare the E-27 photo with your H9 photo, I see a difference of maybe 2-3 inched in the distance between the top of the drive wheel and the bottom of the boiler. 

I never really considered the impact of using the Belpaire firebox, but that might have been one of the benefits.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, and you asked about power. The power comes from the pressure in the boiler (rated at PSI) pushing against the cylinders (square inches) and is related to the driver diameter. Most steam locomotives develop their full horsepower at about 25 mph.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm thinking something along the lines of this: 










Originally built for the Huntington & Broad Top RR (a standard-gauge line one valley west of the EBT), then eventually made its way to the Livonia, Avon, & Lakeville RR where she ran into the 70s before being sold to the Knox & Kane. 

The only trouble I would have is whether to letter it for the H&BT because of its relationship to the EBT, or the LA&L because it runs right behind my old house in Avon. 

Later, 

K


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin,

Simple. Letter one side H&BT and the other side LAL. It's like getting two locomotives for the price of one!


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin was that one of the locomotives damaged in the engine house fire that the K&K suffered? 

Chas


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 29 Jun 2011 01:18 PM 
Kevin was that one of the locomotives damaged in the engine house fire that the K&K suffered? 

Chas 





Yep..Number 38 was sold in 2008 is now with the Everett Railroad in PA. 

After the Fire

Everett webpage

Scot


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 29 Jun 2011 11:54 AM 
Kevin,

Simple. Letter one side H&BT and the other side LAL. It's like getting two locomotives for the price of one!

If the road numbers were the same, having two tenders might work as well. A lot of railroads put only a number on the cab, with the road name on the tender - in which case swapping out the tender would have the effect of changing the railroad.


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Another factor to the boiler height... the depth of the firebox, which was mentioned. The distance from the top of the grates to the bottom of the tube sheets affects the firing quality of the locomotive. A deeper firebox has beneficial properties to the firebed, especially if thermic syphons or other water tubes are used to support a firebrick arch.

I can't remember at the moment what the properties are of the deep firebox (in standard firing, all I can remember is the benefits for the Gas-Producer Combustion System, GPCS, developed by L.D. Porta) but the deeper firebox is beneficial. By raising the boiler centerline, the distance from the grate-tops is also increased, creating a deeper firebox.
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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Saw posts that this new locomotive is in the docks, and should be shipping out to dealers maybe next week. Soon enough, there'll be units on the tracks to be tested so we can have a real review.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Some people object to the amount of 'daylight' that is visible under the boiler of the new Aristo 2-8-0. But seldom do people object to the looks of the Strasburg or IRM (ex Frisco) decapods, and I suspect that this is because the prototype's under-boiler space was not so uncluttered. Look at a prototype photo of a B7O e-27. The under boiler space is inhabited by springs, steam lines, power reverser rods, sand lines, etc etc. Therefore, I assume that adding some detail to an Aristo engine won't hurt its looks. My opinion only. 

Cheers


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Need a UP one which will get converted to SP including a "whaleback" tender. Can't wait!!!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I had actually been thinking about canceling the order I had placed for a couple undecorated ones when they were first announced (wife now retired and funds going to be more limited) but I really liked the AC Connie that I saw at the NGRC. I don't remember whether the boiler was high or low but the loco looked just the right size next to the Pacific.

A friend recently bought a new Pacific and that loco runs so quiet and smooth I was really impressed. The drop-in Revolution socket will make it easy to convert. I had hoped the new Aristo sound system would be here before the Connie but that does not seem likely now.

Almost all of the little old railroads in Arkansas ran Consolidations and or Moguls (even for passenger trains) so I figure I need to keep my order in. One will end up Missouri and Northern Arkansas and the other will probably be MoPac. Without digging out old photos I don't recall just what their Consolidations looked like so I am sure that the Aristo one is going to be close enough for me.

For me, having an appropriately sized 2-8-0, priced as a plastic loco, is more important than whether it matches a specific loco or not (I don't know what most of the stuff on the outside does anyway). No one is ever going to make a match for a Missouri and Northern Arkansas Consolidation anyway so that makes my life easier. The truth is that I don't know why I happen to like the appearance of some locos better than other locos of the same wheel arrangement. Some people love Alleghenys and or K-27s but I think they are ugly yet I would love to have them - especially with matching rolling stock.

Jerry


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I'm with you Jerry, I think the K27 is an ugly beast, along with the Shay. but they are also two of my favorite loco's to run. 

The "gap" did bug me at first, but then again it doesn't look like every other engine I own either! I'm still keeping a bay open in the engine house for it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I'm not a rivet counter so I await the UP version which will be changed to My D&S RR name. Thats how I ger around it having to be prototype for a specific RR. Later RJD


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

GOOD NEWS!

I received the Aristo Insider today and discovered this when I read it:
* 

On-Hand List • July 1, 2011
**
___ ART 20600 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation Undec . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20601 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation B&O . . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20602 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation Wm . . . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20603 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation ATSF . . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20604 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation Up . . . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20608 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation NYC . . . . . . *891.00
___ ART 20609 *. . . . . .2-8-0 Consolidation USATC . . . . *891.00* 
It sounded too good to be true (I had thought they were due around the end of the year or early next year) so I phoned Aristo and I was told they are expected tomorrow (or maybe it was today).

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...202011.pdf

I have the undecorated on order but does anyone happen to know what the USATC and Wm railroads are?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Chris France (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, 

That would be United States Army Transportation Corps and Western Maryland.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Chris France on 05 Jul 2011 08:20 PM 
Jerry, 

That would be United States Army Transportation Corps and Western Maryland. 


Hi Chris,

Thanks,

 Jerry


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

I have one of these units on order, hopefully they come threw without the usual Aristocraft steam issues, like loose drivers and faulty wiring.

Dont want a fire you know ?

I also noticed that USAT has released some new 40ft box cars that would look great behind this locomotive along with their Northeast style caboose.

Cant wait to see it.


Heres a list of some of the neat new box cars that would look great with this locomotive.

*Number* *Description* *Door Style* *Price* R19200A  Santa Fe - Rd. #1 -Tuscan 6 ft. Panel Superior $134.95 R19200B Santa Fe - Rd. #2 - Red 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19200C Santa Fe - Rd. #3 - Red 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19201A Union Pacific - Rd. #1 - Red 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19201B Union Pacific - Rd. #2 - Yellow 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19201C Union Pacific - Rd. #3 - Yellow 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19202A Southern Pacific - Rd. #1 - Tuscan 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19202B Southern Pacific - Rd. #2 - Red 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19202C Southern Pacific - Rd. #3 - Red 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19203B Conrail - Rd. #1 - Blue 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19203C Conrail - Rd. #2 - Tuscan 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19204A New Haven - Black w/Orange Door 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19204C New Haven - Orange 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19205B Great Northern - Green/Orange 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19205C Great Northern - Red 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19206A Chessie - Blue 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19206C Chessie - Yellow 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19207B Burlington Northern - Green 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19207C Burlington Northern - Green 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19208A CSX - Blue 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19208C CSX - Gray 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19209A Rio Grande - Yellow/Silver 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19209C Rio Grande - Silver 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19210A NYC - Brown 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19210C NYC - Red/Gray 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19211B Atlantic Coast Line - Tuscan 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19211C Atlantic Coast Line - Green 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19212B C&NW - Green 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19212C C&NW - Yellow 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19213A Burlington Route- Red 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19213C Burlington Route - Black 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19214B Pennsylvania- Tuscan 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19214C Pennsylvania - Tuscan 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19215B Lehigh Valley - White 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19215C Lehigh Valley - Green 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19216C Norfolk & Western - Tuscan 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19217A Boston & Maine - Black w/Blue Door 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19217C Boston & Maine - Blue/Black 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19218B Canadian Pacific - Silver 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19218C Canadian Pacific - Red 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19219C Western Pacific - Tuscan 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19220C Baltimore & Ohio - Blue 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19221A Alaska Railroad - Blue 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19222A Delaware & Hudson - Box Car Red 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19223B Milwaukee Road - Tuscan 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19224B Rock Island - Blue 8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19225C MEC - Green/Yellow 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19226C Santa Fe - Mineral Brown 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19227A D & RGW  - Box Car Red 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19228A Union Pacific - Oxide Red 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19229C Great Northern - Glacier Green 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19230C Santa Fe Rt. of Super Chief - Mineral Brown 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19231C Pennsylvania - Oxide Red 8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19232A TH&B - Yellow/Black 6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19233B Western Maryland - Brown w/8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19234C Soo Line - White w/Red Door w/8 ft. Youngstown 134.95 R19235A Rutland - Yellow/Green w/6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19236A Cotton Belt - Brown w/6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19237A Lehigh New England - Black w/6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19238A Erie Lackawanna - Light Gray w/6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19239A Canadinan National - Brown w/6 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 R19240B  Reading  - Green w/8 ft. Panel Superior 134.95 
Adam


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