# Deck or Raised Garden?



## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Good day to you all out there!

I am BRAND NEW to all of this... especially to the outdoor capability!

I am looking forward to building an outdoor layout and have been reading everything I can find on this forum and beyond... I have purchased several books and have read them...

Now to ask you all the practical questions!

Deck or Raised Garden?

I am convinced, this railroad must be raised up. My body is not as young as it once was... I don't want to bend over / strain myself to steam up my trains or even to watch the. I don't like watching their roofs go by! Also, when the lawn mowing / yard maintenance occurs, I don't want any accidents!

I should start off by saying, I am in Cape Coral, Florida where the weather is almost perfect all year round! We do get some heavy rains in the summer, but they are short lasting.

I have live steam (K-36 was just ordered! I can't wait to get it!) and a Ruby which I LOVE! I have several LGB trains... from the F7A-B, Bumble Bee Locomotive, and of course my very first LGB, the Stainz! 
I find myself playing with the RUBY 90% of the time! I just love how it NEEDS ME to operate... I love that.

anyway...

What I think I know... 


The deck keeps the tracks clean and neat, but the deck physically looks ugly in the yard... 
If I raise a garden using the concrete decorative retaining wall block, I think it will look nice, but then I am sure I will be dealing with other issues... 
I plan on using my back yard... so I could put the garden as a center island or use the deck around the outside edge. I thinking putting anything around the outer edge will create issues for the lawn mowing... 


For the "garden" railroad, I know I should have a theme to build... but I am not wired that way... I just want a scenic layout with water features and bridges maybe a few buildings here and there... A station or two... I love seeing the gallery pictures on here! They are all so beautiful! But my main goal is to see my trains run... I would like to see at least 3 of them running at the same time... I think it is so beautiful to see the train cross a water fall or emerge from a nice tunnel... I think it is very important that I keep my layout as FLAT as possible, because I run live steam. Maybe one of the lines can have some grade, and that line I can reserve for my electrics... 


I like the deck idea for the steam up area... Maybe I need to do some kind of hybrid plan?

Also my ultimate goal is to have a siding that allows me to drive my trains into my house / garage / shed... something. My goal here is to have more time to RUN MY TRAINS... and not spend all of my time un-boxing them and transporting them to the track... I am very busy with my work... so when I have 30 minutes to play... I would like to play... not spend most of that time just taking out one loco and a few cars... and that is it! 


I would love to see some pictures of what you all have done. 

Would you guys list the PROs and CONs of the DECK vs. Raised Garden?

Any DOs and DON'Ts?

Are there any layouts that just stand out in your minds... I am starting completely from scratch so..... I would love your input! 

Oh and one more thing... I have slowly purchased a lot of LGB track... I plan on having at least a 10ft diameter curve for the live steam main / outer loop. Right now I am thinking about using only the pre-formed track, and not the track you need to have a rail bender for... What are your thoughts about this too? Is using a rail bender no big deal??? Is the LGB flex track the way to go? 


I know I have asked a million questions here... The Ultimate question still is DECK vs. Raised Garden. 


I look forward to your responses!


Best Regards,
Jameel


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

I am the last person that should chime in here because i don't have any experience as I am new also and have never had an outdoor layout. However, I too have followed this topic on here and I came up witht he solution I think I like. Since I live in the Northwest and freezing and heaving is an issue I think the deck system is the way to go; with pillars deep below the frost line. However, I don't like the look either. So my thought is to then build a raised garden around it. Somone one here suggested this type of a build in a round about way to me and it seemed like a great way to have a very solid railroad. 

But I will now defer to the experts and read with interest their replies


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I have a friend who is in in late 80's or early 90's. He loves trains, but he can't get around very well. He has a small raised oval of track (about 10ft by 25 ft and about two foot high) just outside his basement door. I and two other friends went over there a few years ago and fixed all of his track so that trains would run. He was real happy, but we suggested a few changes to make things eaiser for him. Like running a line into his basement, which would't be all that hard and hooking his power supply up so that it could stay inside and be hooked up all the time. Right now he has to carry his trains and power supply outside and hook everything up and then bring stuff back in after. He almost never runs a train. We offered to do the work for him, but he didn't know if he wanted to do it. I'm 64 and I know at some point I'm going to be where he is now. If I had it to do over again I would raise my railroad up to a comfortable working heigth. Now it is from about 6 inches to about 2 foot and I do have a spur that runs into my back porch. My DCC system stays hooked up all the time and I have two radio control throttles to run trains with. So, I'm in better shape than my friend is, but if I was starting over I would make it even easier to use in the future.
Bob


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Jameel; 

Some folks in our local club built a raised garden in the shape of the letter "J" around their patio. They hired masons to put in the brick wall, which varied from about 2 1/2 feet high at one end of the layout to about 4 feet high at the other end. Their land sloped quite a bit, so the variance in the height of the wall kept the layout level. The masons made sure the wall had proper drainage. Then, the area had to be back-filled and prepared for track. It was a beautiful layout (they have since moved to another house). One problen they had the first year their pond wintered-over, was that the pond did freeze to the bottom, as it was actually above ground level. (Location - Rural Retreat, VA) They lost all their fish. After that, they kept a heater in the pond during the winter. 

Just thought this would give you some ideas concerning the pros and cons of the raised garden. I thought having the trains at about waist level was great for operations and switching problems. We could use flat-bladed screwdrivers to uncouple the Kadee couplers, and the switches were easy to operate. 

My $0.02, 
David Meashey


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I am convinced, this railroad must be raised up. My body is not as young as it once was... I don't want to bend over / strain myself to steam up my trains or even to watch the. I don't like watching their roofs go by! Also, when the lawn mowing / yard maintenance occurs, I don't want any accidents! 

I should start off by saying, I am in Cape Coral, Florida where the weather is almost perfect all year round! We do get some heavy rains in the summer, but they are short lasting. 
Jameel, 
I am just down the coast from you at the south end of FMB. I run my live steamer at the Tradewinds & Atlantic track over in Coral Springs. [Google search "site:mylargescale.com Tradewinds Atlantic" and you'll get plenty of info.] 

Yes, make sure some of it is raised! Your back will thank you. But it doesn't all have to be high - if your ground slopes, you can run it along the ground at one end and raised at the other. 

Check out the various threads showing Rog's RGSEast (lots of pics of K-36s too) by google searching "site:mylargescale.com RGSEast". It started as a pipe-ladder type and is now being buried. 

I like the deck idea for the steam up area... Maybe I need to do some kind of hybrid plan? 
No reason why not - it's your railroad. 

The photos from Bob Hyman in the recent "Ladder materials questions" thread are great for ideas: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi.../124255/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#255012 [ www dot mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/124255/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#255012 if that link doesn't work ] 

I plan on having at least a 10ft diameter curve for the live steam main 
Oops - not really big enough for a K-36; those beasts are huge. While they will go around a 4' radius (8' diameter) curve, they won't enjoy it! You did mean 10' diameter, 5' radius? 

Most of us try to get to 10' radius (20' diamter) outdoors. If you really can't go that wide, at least go to 6 or 7' radius (12 - 15' diameter.)


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

would like to see at least 3 of them running at the same time... 
Not if they are live steam ! Unless you have 2 friends over to help. I'll come (check you email for a message.)

Is using a rail bender no big deal??? Is the LGB flex track the way to go? 
A rail bender is no big deal. The Train-Li one that does both rails at once seems to get lots of good press. 

Accucraft is also making code 332 brass track if that's what you like. Code 250 (= 250 thou tall, or 0.25") is more prototypical and they make that too. 
PROs and CONs of the DECK vs. Raised Garden?


Ah yes - the original question! Sorry I got diverted. I think you covered most of the answers. 

Raised gardens are attractive and let you put more scenery around the rails. The track needs re-ballasting every year (we don't know where it goes - one of life's eternal mysteries.) The cost of the landscaping can be prohibitive. Roger put in his own retaining walls and filled behind them with dirt - took a year or two and isn't finished yet. (His back did not appreciate the work.)

Deck layouts are more difficult to mow around (ask Dr Rivet!) They are less scenic, but easier to maintain and operate on.

I think that a hybrid - where one end is raised garden and scenic'd and the other is a deck sytle - gives you the best of both worlds. But there is no hard and fast rule. Given your lot is probably as flat as all the rest in Florida, you are probably facing a major landscaping job. You can always start with a ladder-style deck and bury it later.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Just saw this thread, if you have the elevation change using Allan Block and placing track on top of the wall would place trains at eye level from patio seating. I am building a retiaining wall using this block and will be doing a raised patio in the future sans train, at this point.

http://www.allanblock.com/photoalbu...0_0640.htm

--Chris


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

My $.02 is if gardening is important to your overall look then raised planter beds or near-ground is the better way to go. If pure running (which it sounds like you are more aligned with) then higher is better. Also I'd recommend considering doing a train shed to keep at least your rolling stock in. Less carrying items around and if built well it can resist the weather just fine. 

In my yard I have a 3' high retaining wall that goes alone the entire back of my property so I could do either a raised or ground level layout. I'm still younger and can bend over fine (and hope to have kids soon and want to get my kids into trains) so having a track 6" above the grass in raised planter beds is my choice for now. However my train shed will be 4' tall (with the ability for the low track to access the first 3 of five levels) and one day I do plan to expand the layout when the kids off to college and create another loop that is 3' above ground that follows the retaining wall. This upper level will be able to directly access the top 3/5 levels so it would be possibly to get up to a 30' long train from one track to the other with one switchback. The upper track will be mainly for live-steam when I can afford them one day and the lower track will be electric locomotives. The top 2 levels for now will just be storage of cars (I have about 140 currently). About 10 locos will be kept in the shed, 6 or so ready-to-go with cars attached so I can open the shed doors and run trains out with a dedicated snow removal engine and others I can swap out if I want another road name. My track is also limited to 2% grade or less so to raise up about 3' will take nearly 200' length of track which isn't cheap. I've seen some creative train elevators though and I'd do that if I weren't planning on doing some software automation of the layout (each locomotive will have a embedded linux computer on board) which it unwise to have a locomotive somewhere it can't directly reach the mainline track from.


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine is raised just 8" above the ground and I like it. I used 4x4's. Next year I will add a third row of timbers. Will make it easier to work on. Dennis


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Deck.
Anything else you will quickly grow to wish you had built a deck.
30"-36"H; 36" (counter height) most comfortable.
Deck is easiest to expand and allows for expansion. 
By far less maintenance (than raised garden)
Min. 2 mainlines, sidings on each mainline for stalls to pull off.
IMHO the very best method for building: Prefab benchwork for the DC&M 
One modification; Skip ballast, use flat deck (5/8 ext plywood) w/asphalt roofing material.
Curves; 10-12' good; 15' better; 20+' best. (at +/- 20' you can bend it by hand)
Build a simple oval or circle. Do not build what you think is your ultimate or perfect layout. 
You will want to change/modify layout with experience.
You cannot run a live steam loco in 30min. 1.5-2+ hours min. Bigger the loco the more time required.
Only use flex track - NO preformed. Flex can be changed, preformed cannot. You will regret preformed.
Steamup Bay; min 2 tracks; separate 2-4 tracks for rolling stock storage and cool down area.
Forget the scenery you will be watching, concentrating on and chasing after your steamer.
Put some shrub groupings inside the layout o block view of entire loop. Illusion of train going somewhere (out of view) and coming from somewhere. IMHO 
Best Example: Dr. Rivet's (Jim Stapletton) but 1/3 the size.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

You could do a combination of deck and planter box. Have the main layout on the planter box then your outside loop could go off and onto a bridge and or trestles, deck then back to the planter. Depends on your topography. I like the idea of having the main RR at a comfortable counter height or I saw a video once where a guy built a concrete pit next to his line so he could sit on the edge and work his live steamers. You could build in a step down like a dug out that runs the length of your planter so then it wouldn't need ot be so high overall. Having a 36" tall planter box in the middle of your yard may be a bit obtrusive. Also a good idea ot build a train shed where the track goes into it so you don't need ot carry out your trains. More time running and less chance of dropping them. 
Lots of good advice here and lots of ideas to make your own. Good luck


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

My whole layout was raised 24" off the ground. (three truckloads of fill) It gives a much better view of the trains and buildings because you are not looking a roofs all the time. It also makes it much easier to build, detail and do maintenance. It also gives you a big advantage when you want to shoot photographs. My next layout will be the same, but around the edges of the yard so that I can have more of a variety of scenes that my trains run through.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 05 Apr 2012 12:59 PM 
Deck.
Anything else you will quickly grow to wish you had built a deck.
30"-36"H; 36" (counter height) most comfortable.
Deck is easiest to expand and allows for expansion. 
By far less maintenance (than raised garden)
Min. 2 mainlines, sidings on each mainline for stalls to pull off.
IMHO the very best method for building: Prefab benchwork for the DC&M 
One modification; Skip ballast, use flat deck (5/8 ext plywood) w/asphalt roofing material.
_Curves; 10-12' good; 15' better; 20+' best. (at +/- 20' you can bend it by hand)
_Build a simple oval or circle. Do not build what you think is your ultimate or perfect layout. 
You will want to change/modify layout with experience.
You cannot run a live steam loco in 30min. 1.5-2+ hours min. Bigger the loco the more time required.
Only use flex track - NO preformed. Flex can be changed, preformed cannot. You will regret preformed.
Steamup Bay; min 2 tracks; separate 2-4 tracks for rolling stock storage and cool down area.
Forget the scenery you will be watching, concentrating on and chasing after your steamer.
Put some shrub groupings inside the layout o block view of entire loop. Illusion of train going somewhere (out of view) and coming from somewhere. IMHO 
Best Example: Dr. Rivet's (Jim Stapletton) but 1/3 the size.


Radius


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been very pleased with the "portable" layout I got from Eaglewings Ironcraft. You can see on their website that the top is a steel framework supported by spikes driven into the soil. In Florida it should be very easy to pound them in vs the clay soil, rocks and tree roots at my place in upstate NY. Dan Hoag will make about any shape you like (mine is a 32'x40 triangular configuration with 10' radius curves. This spring I will be planting hedgeing type plants under the track which I will shear as they grow to make it look like the trains are running on top of the hedge and to hide the supporting stilts while still allowing me to reach in to adjust if necessary. With the excellent growing condtions you enjoy in south Florida you should be able to conceal the frame is short order.
I heartily endorse what others have said about sectional track and the train li bender as well as considering 10' for the minimum radius.
Just one warning, watch out for that Thornton guy, he's trouble. He'll have you worshiping the East Broad Top in short order. (just kidding-Pete's a great guy!)
Have fun planning, building and running,
Tom


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

As others have said raised garden railways are the way to go. My favorite raised garden railway can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF01k1ssf1Q Never mind the prototype, just the beautiful blend of landscaping from ground to track level and above.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Wow! I really like this one... I have a special place in my heart for Ireland! I took my girlfriend their last August to tour the country. It is there that I proposed to her! So now.. she is my Fiance! ;-) I proposed to her in the Kilronan Castle! I think she will talk about that forever! 
I love that video... the music is great too! 


Thank you so much and a special warm thank you goes out to everyone that has been responding to my questions! You all have made this so much fun!!!


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Thank you so much Tom! I will definitely look into this! 

You all are so kind! Thank you for such great responses!

I look forward to meeting you all! I think Pete will be the first one I meet! ;-)


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Let me know when you want to make the 1.5 hr trek over to tradewinds on the east coast of florida one of these days, see if Larry Green is in town too (hes also has a place in Fort Meyers).

I built the club track as a deck because, being a club track, it needs to have the least maintenance and also has to have the least amount of things on it to break. 
Raised garden looks nicer, but your going to have to be a gardener to keep it up but, you might like that.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

A question I haven't seen addressed: Do you like gardening right now, before trains? If you really enjoy selecting the right plant, buying, installling, watering, weeding, etc. then a garden. If you don't enjoy it now, then a deck. 

The landscaped area of my layout is about 25 feet square, and between weeding, pruning, putting in new plants, taking out the ones that didn't work out, etc, I spend a lot more time gardening than running trains.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

A garden will be more work, but yield a far nicer looking railroad. You have to gauge whether that extra effort is worth it to you. I feel that it is to me, even at ground level.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How about a deck, but grow a hedge under it? 

Greg


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to say it before someone else does 
Toddalin Your track powered engines must run like ROCKETS with all those AMPS those heavy power cables are supplying !! 
Just kiddin. That is a nice looking layout there. 
I agree plants add alot of interest to a garden railroad. They do add alot of extra work but it is all part of being in the great outdoors. 
That video Spincaster posted the link to is a really nice example of a raised "hidden" bed RR. The only troble is you might not be able to change a track plan once the concrete sets. 
Ireland holds a special place in my heart as well Gigawat. My Wife is from Ireland. 
Happy RRing


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By cape cod Todd on 06 Apr 2012 02:14 PM 
I have to say it before someone else does 
Toddalin Your track powered engines must run like ROCKETS with all those AMPS those heavy power cables are supplying !! 
Just kiddin. That is a nice looking layout there. 
I agree plants add alot of interest to a garden railroad. They do add alot of extra work but it is all part of being in the great outdoors. 
That video Spincaster posted the link to is a really nice example of a raised "hidden" bed RR. The only troble is you might not be able to change a track plan once the concrete sets. 
Ireland holds a special place in my heart as well Gigawat. My Wife is from Ireland. 
Happy RRing 

Actually, there are 20, 16-gauge wires in each of those black cables and the grey cables piggyback another 4 each on top of that (48 total). There are two 24-pin connectors to attach the cables. We run 24 wires for blocks, 21 turnouts, two for grounds, and one to turn on the automation. Seven trains run themselves simultantously, waiting for each other as necessary.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Jameel, 

If you want the convenience of a deck benchwork railroad with the look of a raised bed type all you need do is face the benchwork with the same facing you'd use for a raised bed. No one can tell it's hollow inside and with strategically placed access doors or moveable plants you could run wires for lighting or track power as well as drip irrigation lines in the hollows beneath the railroad. 

If you did a raised bed you'd need to buy the facing (rock, wood, block, etc.) anyway and you'll save moving in a lot of fill dirt. A lot easier to remove or change the railroad should you want also. I originally had planned to enclose my benchwork but since the deer now go under the layout instead of on top or over it I thought it wise to leave it open for them. If you don't have large animals tromping about you won't have to worry about them. 

The only advantage of a raised bed is that it can be walked on and you can plant large plants on top. My nominal 1.5" dirt soil only supports moss and could accommodate shallow ground covers. Also being shallow it dries out fast which can be either a plus or a minus depending on circumstances.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

That is incredible! WOW! Do you have more pictures of this!? Amazing!!! 

I am starting to push towards the raised garden! Although I am an engineer... and love to just RUN THE TRAINS!!! The garden has much more appeal to me! It is something my Fiance Carmen and I can do together! I think the garden will make this more of a family hobby instead of Jameel and his train. 


Thank you for sharing such fantastic photos! GREAT WORK!

Best Regards,

Happy Easter / Happy Holidays to all of you out there!

Jameel


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

The more I think about this, the more I want a garden too... If I build a wall in a curvy oval shape about 3 feet high and fill it with dirt, will I have drainage issues? 

I have seen people bury pipe inside their raised gardens... but I am not sure I understand how that will help with drainage. Can somebody explain? Again, I am in SouthWest Florida... it is warm all the time, but we do get heavy rains, so I don't want my raised garden to start to fail because I don't have good drainage. 


What are your thoughts? Are there any good explanations of how to properly drain something like this? 

Check out this video:

http://youtu.be/8E7W0pBUflQ

I don't think I can afford to do something this extravagent, but you can see the raised wall in a curvy oval. He has used some really nice retaining wall material, and this was probably done by a mason. I plan on using the concrete block found at home depot: http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-G...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

What do you guys think?

Happy Holidays! 

Best Regards,

Jameel


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

HI 
That video shows one nice large planter box. That is yards and yards of fill to put into it. Can a dump truck get to where you want to build yours or will you be moving all that dirt a wheelbarrow at a time? Plus plan for lots of settling over time. 
With a box as tall as that you would need drainage. if you get a good soaking the water could actually push out your wall. I have seen photos of this type of destruction. I haven't had to build a drainage system but I'm sure guys here have and could tell you how it is done. Basically perforated pipe covered with gravel that leads down hill to a pipe opening in your wall. Here on the Cape we have had barrier beach failures due to water being built up behind them from a storm. Water can really do a number on things. 
If there is any elevation in you yard you could take advantage of it by expanding it with a block wall and filling it in. If totally flat you have alot of work ahead of you. Check into landscape yards they have much larger blocks than HD and might look better overall. 
Keep us posted. 
Todd


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Great question! Thanks Todd! Yes... I will be able to have a dump truck get to it... and just dump it right into my "planter box." I can't even imagine doing that one wheel barrow at a time! 

I have attached a picture of where I plan on building this. Cape Coral was actually man made... It is built on sand. You can see this empty lot here... no grass, nothing. I plan on building my wall and then putting sod around it at the base. You can see how FLAT it is. I plan on building my main line really really flat (for live steam) and then making the ground change elevation in the plantar box to make it look like it is very hilly / mountainous. That is when I can have my bridges going over water features. I think I will take it very slow though... Just build my plantar box... fill it with dirt and then layout my main line oval so that I can play! Then do one landscape project at a time.

I am very interested in the drainage aspect of this. I want to have AWESOME drainage because... well I am building it from scratch... no time like the present to do it correctly!

I have tried to learn about drainage online but I couldn't find anything good. I would love to hear about your experiences!!! 

What is the best way to drain such a large planter box? My wall will be just stacked blocks. No mortar holding these blocks together. Again, the fill is mostly sand... 

Home Depot is having a sale on those blocks right now... It used to cost $1.74 now they are $1.44 


I can't wait!!! This is going to be a lot of fun!

Jameel


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the best way to drain such a large planter box? My wall will be just stacked blocks. No mortar holding these blocks together. Again, the fill is mostly sand 
Jameel, 
Sand is a great drainage medium. The gardeneres will tell you to fill the bottom of your planter with sand to help it drain! In your area I doubt you have a drainage problem - those heavy rains just run straight through the sandy soil into the canal. 

The pipes are 6" diamter plastic with holes in them to capture water and direct it out of the soil where you bury the pipe. Home depot has them, I think. 

A thought: your planter doesn't have to be full of sandy soil. Hollow wall cement blocks will make a great, cheap base and will drain as well.


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Part of my layout is in a raised planter built from stacked landscape blocks. It's about three feet high at the deepest part. Here's a photo before the roadbed went in.









I backfilled behind the wall with dirt as I excavated my ponds without ever doing any advanced planning for drainage. My soil is mostly clay and does not drain very well. When I began installing roadbed in this planter, I realized that there were a couple of places where the track will cross small dry canyons. I removed the blocks from the wall at these canyons. I didn’t want water to run down the canyons and out into the yard when it rains so this is the solution I used. It also serves as a drainage system to remove excess water from the soil in the raised planter. It sure would have been a lot easier if I had put it in before I backfilled the planter!

I excavated a trench behind the wall down to slightly below the base of the wall. It is about a foot wide at the bottom. I lined the trench with landscape fabric and put a couple inches of crushed rock in the trench. I ran 4” perforated drain pipe on the rock. The pipe is corrugated (flexible) and comes in 10-foot sections or 100-foot rolls at HD and Lowes. I covered the pipe with a fabric sock to keep out dirt and then added additional rock on the sides and top of the pipe. In total, I used approximately a cubic foot of crushed rock for each linear foot of drain pipe.

After all the rock was added, I placed another layer of landscape fabric on the top of the rock and then covered it with soil. The landscape fabric helps keep soil from infiltrating the rock and eventually clogging the pipe. 

I placed a drain basin at the mouth of each canyon. The perforated pipe connects to these drains. The pipe has a slight slope (about 1/8” per foot.) At the lowest point, the pipe runs under the wall and connects to an existing French drain line in the yard (kind of like a dry well.) The grates on the drains are covered with landscape fabric and will have a layer of gravel added later to camouflage them. Although the planter isn’t finished yet and the track isn’t installed, the drainage system is performing well. We have had a couple of good soakings in the past couple of weeks (1”+ each time) and everything seems to be working as planned.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I likewise have french drains behind all my walls where the track is raised... good idea. 

Greg


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Here are a few photos of how I put the drainage line behind the planter wall.










In this first shot, you can see a portion of the perforated drain pipe on the ground in front of the wall. I have removed the landscape blocks down to the first layer, dug the trench, and am starting to line it with landscape fabric. You can see the point where I have started to excavate one of the canyons under the roadbed.











In the second shot, I have already put the pipe and rock into the trench up to the first drain basin. This basin is at the mouth of the canyon. The pipe enters on the side that is already covered with rock and will exit on the left side. An 8-inch circular grate will go on the top of the drain basin.










In this last shot, I have covered the top of the crushed rock with another piece of landscape fabric. I will re-stack the blocks on the wall wall and fill in the dirt behind it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Man, you weren't kidding about the clay, you can see the layers, looks like the grand canyon walls! 

good idea to make the french drain below the surface, but I'm surprised you did not put one inside the wall at the base. 

Greg


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jameel 
You are certainly getting alot of great answers and photo responses to your questions here. 
If you don't already have some I would suggest getting a few books on the subject of large scale trains. I have one that is a wealth of info called "Garden Railroading, Getting started in the Hobby" It is published by Kalmbach. In this book you will find all sorts of interesting text and photos explaining things that you might not even have thought about yet. There are all sorts of books put out by Kalmbach that you can buy for inspiration. Most are aimed at HO scale but you can adapt to G scale. 
Todd


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By gigawat on 07 Apr 2012 07:59 AM 
That is incredible! WOW! Do you have more pictures of this!? Amazing!!! 

I am starting to push towards the raised garden! Although I am an engineer... and love to just RUN THE TRAINS!!! The garden has much more appeal to me! It is something my Fiance Carmen and I can do together! I think the garden will make this more of a family hobby instead of Jameel and his train. 


Thank you for sharing such fantastic photos! GREAT WORK!

Best Regards,

Happy Easter / Happy Holidays to all of you out there!

Jameel




Thanks for the kind words. You could see our web site for more photos.

Tortoise & Lizard Bash Railroad


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

This is exactly what I want to build.

How high is this off the ground? I have been reading posts on here that say 30" to 36" is desirable... This looks like 16" 


Do you have any pictures of the finished design?

Do you have a sketch of the wall perimeter and the layout?

I would love to see more of this! I think this is exactly what I had envisioned! PERFECT!

What are the dimensions of this? How many blocks did you use? I have calculated that I would need 1400 blocks if I want to go 7 blocks high... I thought I read somewhere that since these blocks are not mortared together there might be a height limit.


Where is this master piece located? Maybe I could get a satellite view! ;-) Maybe you can send me a direct message.

Thanks so much for this!

Happy Holidays!

Jameel


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Jameel,
If you are asking about my layout, I live in central Oklahoma. The layout is a work in progress. For more information on the layout, there is a post about it including a drawing on my website at link to layout post 


If you open the post and scroll down to the drawing, just click on it to enlarge it. The spot where the drainage photos were taken is just in front of the planter at the area labeled "Red Rock Canyon". This is just about the lowest spot on the layout and the block wall is only 4 courses high at this point (16".) This is where the track begins the long climb from Sawpit (in front of the pond) up to Ophir (on the left side of the drawing.) The roadbed in the Rico area beyond Ophir is 24" above the roadbed where the drainage photos were taken. There are 1344 landscape blocks in the perimeter wall. The yard slopes down from the rear toward the front. Highest point on the wall is 7 courses high (28") near Ophir. Most of the wall at the rear of the layout is only 2 courses (8") high. One of the biggest advantages for putting the layout in the planter is that my wife loves gardening, I love railroading, and we both love ponds. This way, we both can work together outside on a common project.


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a 1 foot raised planter railroad. It is a roughly 24 foot by 45 foot L shaped dog bone. I have 3 of these (green) drains, one at each end and the one shown which is in the middle. They tie into the drainage system of my backyard. Being in So Cal this drainage system has worked great. The picture is from 4 years ago. 
The blocks have been redone and are straighter now.


















Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Part of my layout is at ground level:









It then climbs a grade along the back fence to 21" in the air









Then it takes a 180 and a 5.5% downgrade to get back to ground level. 




So I can load trains without bending over, by rolling the cart up to the track.

Greg


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

It mostly comes down to cust. What do you want your budget to be. I am designing my Yard section of my layout. Its going to be a 5 x 60 section that will resemble the Chama yard on the DRGW. With that I want it a good height as I run all steam. With that said if I use landscape block Im looking at 2900.00 on block. If I use cement block its about 460.00 Then the time to install. Landscape you just glue and stack. Cement block its lots of morter and joints that I am not great at doing. Very slow. I have spoke to a few masons that they could lay it in a day. Looking at about 1000.00 for a mason with me getting the block. I should add that I am partners in a landscaping business and these are my costs. 

I also have been comparing a decked solution that will be built up into a tray. Backfiling with some soil and ballast. My plan is to have it look as real as I can. Im starting to settle on the decked version due to cost and speed of building. Also means that I dont have to tear up the yard again with the Dingo moving 50 tons of fill.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Jameel, I had the same the same concerns as you, especially about bending over alot. I'm building a raised area (not really a garden) using retaining block purchased at Home Depot. If you are planning to do-it-yourself check with the contractor/professional counter for the best price. I bought 9 pallets of the 12x12x4 block and they cut about $0.30 off the price per block. I'm putting in a ladder-system to place the track on and that allows expansion for later and it allows me to put in a "Steam up" siding away from the main area for my live-steam engine. While building the raised area I put in a water line and capped it off in case I add a drip system or water features. Main issue in Arizona is evaporation rather than water run off. Best of luck.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

That is exactly what I want to do! Thank you! Do you have any pictures yet? I would love to see them! I would really like to see what you are up to!


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's what I did to achieve a level layout in my backyard. Most of this work was carried out 4 years ago.

After hauling in about 30 yards of dirt in the general area I wanted my layout to be, I started with digging a trench around the perimeter of the area and filling it with crushed stone to provide the base for my concrete landscape blocks. I spent a lot of time ensuring that the base was tamped and leveled. From one corner of the layout to the other there is only 1" difference in height.

I laid in my first courses. Each layer was glued (not cemented) together with PL water proof adhesive for concrete block construction. I did not put a drain tile behind the wall. The wall itself is so full of openings that it provides its own weep holes.











After I got about 3 courses high, I started backfilling with 1" stone. As I added each layer I addes more stone.











As you can see from the next picture, the stone forms a lense as it moves back from the wall providing a larger drainage area.












Here's what the wall looked like when it was completed. It is 9 layers high, about 36", and tilts back from the base to the top about 3 deg. (1 1/2"). Notice that I left a few blocks out at the corner. This notch provides all the surface drainage needed to allow run-off during heavy rains. All drains/fake streams internal to the layout flow to this corner. Works quite well.












This is what the layout looks like to date. It has held up well for 4 years now. There are no signs of problems with the wall thus far. I live in the mountains of western NC were we do have winters with freezing weather and snow. In case you're interested the wall is about 50 ft. x 25 ft.. Each end is a 25 ft. diameter curve. Also notice the growth of the trees in the background since I started.











I hope this information helps.

Doc


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Doc, 

Looks nice. Lots of fun hauling all the fill in huh? Thank god for hydro power. Those Lelands grow like weeds huh. Do you trim then at all? We usually shear them up to keep it full and not lengthy growth.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

This is absolutely magnificent! GREAT JOB! 

I really like how you incorporated the nice hilly nature of your yard. 

Right now my yard is absolutely FLAT! I will take a few pictures tomorrow and show you what I mean.

Not only is it FLAT, it is SAND! Like a big sand box! (NO, I don't live on a beach!) Cape Coral was a swamp... and when they dug all of the canals, they used that "fill" to fill in the marsh / swamp. 

Here is an aerial shot of my house and my yard. 











I think it would be nice to have some grade to it so the brick wall turns out similar to yours! I really think it is beautiful that your wall looks like it changes height... but it really maintains a totally level layout! 


Maybe I should get a landscape architect to come up with something pretty and then I can build my layout! I really like your size 25' x 50' is awesome! Now that you are running trains on it... how do you feel about the size? How do you like the height 36"? Do you run live steam? Did you make a particular "steam up" area?


My plan is to make the layout really flat for my live steam, but remove dirt in places, add dirt in places to make the ground look mountainous, have a water fall and stream... then I can put some nice bridges in. I read about www.gardentexture.com in one of the other forums... That is really interesting! I found an interesting place that sells water fall / pond kits. The website is: http://clearwaterlandscapes.com/
Their kits are fish friendly! I think it would be really cool to have some fish in there too! I think some Koi would be really fun! Has anybody done that? I have read that you really need to be careful with the liners that you use... sometimes the liner can kill the fish.


Anyway... 

I think when I get started Doc... I will have some more technical questions for you! The one I keep thinking about is how you managed to keep the grade so flat! Did you use special tools to accomplish that? I am an engineer by trade, and that makes me a perfectionist. ;-)

Thanks again for sharing your layout with us! It is awesome!


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Do you have any pictures of your layout up close? I would love to see how your track layout looks! Did you use flex track? Did you fasten your track to anything or is it just laid in ballast?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The one I keep thinking about is how you managed to keep the grade so flat! 
There's a levelling tool for landscaping using a hosepipe. See http://www.deckmagazine.com/article/64.html [ www dot deckmagazine.com/article/64.html ] 

Ah - Amazon sells them for $10+. Mayes Level 10309 Water Level http://www.amazon.com/Mayes-Level-10309-Water/dp/B00004YZP8 [ www dot amazon.com/Mayes-Level-10309-Water/dp/B00004YZP8 ]


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

First off, thanks for the compliments.

 Jason, I had a little help moving the dirt as shown in the photo below. This was done before the house next door and my backyard were completed.











The trees belong to my neighbor so I couldn't do anything about them. He likes privacy. It was his loss since he and his son could watch my trains from their back deck. Not anymore.


Jameel,

The 36" height on the lower part of the layout is perfect for loading trains. That's where the yards are, next photo. I don't have any live steam engines but others have run them. The high wall at that side makes it very easy for them to 'steam-up'.











And a view from the other end:










Here are a couple of other shots of the layout.




























To answer some of your other questions, I got the track level by using a digital level while preparing the base for the wall and laying each layer of stone and periodically checking the overall level by using a digital level/laser. The laser is from Sears and costs about $40. The laser beam is bright enough to see across the 50 ft. distance in daylight.

I use all sorts of track pieces, all brass. Most pieces are 5 ft. sections which I bent using a rail bender by Train-Li. Everything floats in/on stone dust/crusher fines. Name varys depending on location. All sections are connected using Split Jaw clamps.

If you have any other questions, I would be glad to try and answer them.

Doc


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

Thank you very much! You have done a marvelous job!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Doc, Ahh the 236 we have the same machine. Though I wish we got a larger one that can handle a pallet of pavers or block without taking off 4 bands first. O and AC would of been nice but since we run with the door removed I guess it doesnt really matter. We also have a Kubota U25 excavator. Its amazing how smooth and quiet the Kubota is vs the Cat. 

Its always good to plan things like this ahead so you dont have to tear up the yard over and over again. I have access to my friends Ditchwitch loader, basically a Toro Dingo on steriods. Phase 2 of my track will involve lots of fill. Not really looking foward to the mess. I think I need to start phase 1 soon!


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Gigawat: 

I viewed a live steam layout built in England. The layout was built on posts on which T brackets supported a flat oval platform. Looks ugly so far. BUT, then the hobbyist planted green boxwood hedge shrub under the flat oval platform layout top between the posts which created a green curtain under the layout. This was finished off with red tea roses along the perimeter of the green boxwood hedge. No heavy excavation work required, provides an oval rose garden for your wife and provides a perfectly level platform to run the live steam trains. I guess for a Florida layout, plastic decking would be required otherwise the termites will eat the layout platform. 

Norman


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

then the hobbyist planted green boxwood hedge shrub under the flat oval platform layout top between the posts which created a green curtain 
Norman, 

I've seen photos of a few UK layouts where the track ran around the perimeter and hedges were allowed / designed to grow up to the track to hide the baseboard. 

Given the flat neighborhood for his layout, I had suggested that a fence would be needed around the layout / property for privacy and security. I also suggested attaching a shelf to the fence for track, then planting bushes, roses, whatever, in front (and possibly behind) the shelf. It would certainly save a lot of filling in raised flower beds and allow the layout to be aound the perimter of the yard. 
Ah yes - pictures! I looked around the G1MRA site in the UK: (gaugeone.org)


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## Ian Pooley (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi

I use a raised trackbed, partly because the terrain is uneven, and partly because it makes it easier to handle live steam. Plants grow up to the height of the trackbed. The picture shows the small yard at the north end of the railway, where live steamers get tended before and after the run. The track in the foreground is part of a turntable. 

Ian Pooley


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## DocJ (Apr 3, 2012)

What does your WIFE say about it? If you go "bed style" who will do the weed and feed routine? Does your wife have HER own engine and rolling stock? If you plan to power switches and put in operating signals in the future, the raised platform is easier to work the wires with and to hide / protect electronics under the decking. 

Someone said they don't like to enjoy their trains "looking down from the top" watching the roofs go by. I like to use an on-train camera hooked wireless to a monitor and "drive" the trains from the engineer's area using my wireless throttle and the video. That's a lot more interesting if the circuit is through a garden dodging around plants instead of just doing a straght run. The plant approach means that the railroad will look and feel different with the seasons, which is my experience. It is also interesting watching the mocking birds stealing pigeon grit ballast or the baby bunnies hopping down the road bed -- which you don't get on a raised deck.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

*Thank you all for your great advice!*

Dear All who helped me decide which way to go with my first outdoor layout! 

Your help / advice was so valuable in coming up with my grand plan! Thank you so much for your help!

Here is a video showing one of my live steam engines traveling around my new layout! I should have posted this a while back... I am sorry I have been so out of touch. My son is now 9.5 months old! That is why I have been missing in action! I hope to post more on the details of how and why I did what I did! I have taken a lot of pictures along the way so that I can really give a detailed explanation! 

So here it is! Make sure you watch it using the HD setting! 





I would love to hear your comments! 

Thank you so much!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice job, did you do all the work? Is that a commercial metal support system? Love the bridges and waterfall, seems you got all you wanted.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like Eaglewings frames and supports,
The bridges and waterfall are great and maintenance should be easy. Wish we could use man made rocks like those here in upstate New York.
Very nice result,
Tom


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom , Why can you not use man made rock in upstate NY?
Dennis


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not totally sure it coudn't be used,
Depending on construction method the freeze/thaw cycles we experience would cause damage I'm guessing.
I am blessed to live on the edge of a farm so there are lots of rocks available in fence rows which I have been given permission to "harvest". 
My Eaglewings framed railway has been in place for several years and I'm hoping this spring to start landscaping. At our last home I had a nice garden railway but since I'm using only live steam and getting older I built this one raised to waist level. Dry laid walls work well around here but I'm still intrigued by the construction of concrete mountains.
Tom


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Tom..
..what happens to the cement foundation for your home in winter...
When I lived in NV.. my home was on a 32" deep footing and stem wall....

Minus 20 did nothing in winter..pondering for ya!!

Dirk


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Really looks nice. Now that is what I call a raised RR that looks great. Later RJD


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