# Help w/ 1st loco



## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Hello to all. Total newb here. Thinking about jumping into the deep end w/ this live steam business.

Nothing set in stone at this point, but possible layout would include a 25' long 4% straight climb/decent. Would a "beginner" loco like a Ruby or Forney be able to do this climb without having to add throttle? I'm picturing letting it run on it's own without constant driving. Or would i need a geared loco?

I've seen articles where someone modifies a Ruby into Forney. If i like the Forney i would think it's cheaper to buy one rather than modify a Ruby. Are they the same under the hood?

So many beautiful locos out there, but like many, i'm trying to stick to a budget. Hear great things about Roundhouse, but seems very pricey, or i'm not seeing the cheaper models.

Thx for sending any info my way.

Marty
La Verne, CA


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

A flat track is vital without remote control on a rod loco. It will struggle up hill then race flat out down hill. Like a roller coaster, not good for the old ticker and will keep you on your toes! A geared loco may be way more suited if you don't want to add remote throttle on your type of track. 


Some say you may outgrow a Ruby fast. A second hand Lady Anne was my first live steamer. Never had any problems with it except having to chase it around. 

Andrew


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If i like the Forney i would think it's cheaper to buy one 
Yes. And they are not identical under the hood. Accucraft keeps improving each design - the Ruby is very old at this point. I find them finicky and difficult to control. 

A 4% grade will be difficult, if not impossible for a Ruby without r/c. The slightest throttle setting is needed on flat ground, which means it will stop on the grade. You have to open the throttle to get it up the hill. At the top, it will take off like a rocket as the throttle is now open too much. Downhill you can close the throttle and t will coast. 4% is considered quite steep - a geared loco will not need the same attention.


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

Here's my rule of thumb when planning a railroad. 

If you want to play with the railroad, get a simple engine, if you want to play with the locomotive, get a simple railroad.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx for replies. On a flat layout a Forney is superior to a Ruby?

What's a good little geared loco?

Thx.
Marty


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Regner has some nice little geared engines which come well recommended. they tend to be freelance in design. they run well. 

the next choice is Accucraft and one of their Shays. 

look at The Train Department for Regner http://www.thetraindepartment.com/regner/


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the Forney hooked up to RC. I love it but it is not good on grades and does not have great pulling power. I dont have much of grade and you really notice it with the Forney. The Roundhouse Sammie might be a better choice or even better something geared liked the Regner easy line or the Accucraft Shay. 
On a flat layout the Forney and Ruby will run the same although the Forney has a bigger boiler I believe. But performance will be the same.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Marty, 
You have stated that you have a budget, as we must all have, but don't short change yourself just to get into live steam. 
I always suggest to people that ask me, to sometimes approach the issue of which locomotive from the other direction. 
What are YOU interested in. 
Do you have a favourite railroad, or type of loco, logging, mainline etc... 
Small locos are not always the easiest to run for a beginner. 
Those locos with a larger boiler and more fuel will tend to be more tolerant. 
Larger, thus heavier locos are somewhat easier to control speed wise, and will pull larger trains. 
Geared types don't mind the climbs as much and are probably the easiest to control with regards to speed. 
So, I guess what I am suggesting is that you decide what really would keep your interest for a while, and then save up for that loco. 
I see far too many buy a so called 'starter' loco, only to get tired of it within a year to buy what they really wanted in the first place. 
Good luck in the hobby, 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Again, thx for replies. 
At this point it's hard to choose, because i really don't have any opinions on style, or know what's available. 
Regner Lumberjack looks OK. Looks like it pulls well in YouTube vid. Any other locos similar to that in price range? Looked at all the stuff @ TheTrainDepartment. Would this loco climb up 4% w/o having to adjust throttle? 

Has anyone tried to come up w/ a "cruise control" arrangement for a steam loco? My boss thinks it may be doable. For the sake of arrgument, would a Forney climb 4% pulling 3-4 cars w/ R/C or a cruise control of sorts? Sorry, i'm stuck on the Forney- i like the way it looks. 

And what about used stuff? Haven't seen much of anything. Is it rare or am i not looking in the right places? 

Marty


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Live steam is more about running an engine than running trains around. They pretty much require constant attention just like real ones do. If you really like the Forney perhaps ask people specifically about that model and it's running characteristics but fitting at least a steam regulator servo with remote would be the case for your 4% track. 
A mechanical governor or electronic 'cruise control' is possible but would likely be more complex than remote control all of which the components relatively cheap and will give you more control which is required much of the time while running especially with smaller boilers as others have said. You will have to spend the money to get this right on your graded track one way or another. 
Don't forget to also check 'Live Steam' on eBay and not only 'G Gauge'. Be wary of second hand live steam that may be worn or have problems which may be expensive to fix. 
I think if you like the geared locos perhaps get one of those to keep things simple. I'm sure you will love it and be right at home working slowly up the hill.
If you keep your eye out you may find a good second hand Accucraft 2 cylinder shay for $1100 or there about. 

Andrew


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx, Andrew.
Guys, feel free to let me know any ideas you may have. Possibly i'm wondering off into left field w/ my "plan". At this point i'm open to any ideas. And like i said i'm an ignorant newb, and am enjoy learning about this seemingly wonderful hobby.

Quickly, this is my layout plan: loop in the backyard, possibly elevated 2ish feet. Train would then run by side of house, dropping 2' in 25', then go through hole in fence, and do loop in front yard, then return. At this point i couldn't follow train along house, i'd have to run around the other side of house to get to front yard. Is this a bad idea, not being able to follow train? Maybe i'm not appreciating how much attention live steam requires. Would not be too hard to put gate in where train would go through fence.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Go somewhere you can see, smell and hear them in action and talk to the operators. 
You will get a much better feel for it all. You might even find a good deal! but take your time.
Live Steam is much different to running electric trains. They are best in view most of the time because when an electric derails it does nothing but a live steamer can start a fire or damage itself. you need to be on top of it quick if something goes wrong.

Andrew


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Garratt on 11 Feb 2014 09:31 PM 
Go somewhere you can see, smell and hear them in action and talk to the operators. 
You will get a much better feel for it all. You might even find a good deal! but take your time.
Live Steam is much different to running electric trains. They are best in view most of the time because when an electric derails it does nothing but a live steamer can start a fire or damage itself. you need to be on top of it quick if something goes wrong.

Andrew 
Marty,

I think Andrew has pretty much summed up the situation in running live steam. My experience with live steam is in the much larger ride-on 1 1/2" scale live steamers, but the same situation holds true for the smaller scales. You WILL have to constantly monitor the engine for water and fuel AND the throttle. You DO have to be on top of it if something goes wrong. Live steamers are definitely "hands-on" machinery, unforgiving, NOT like electrics.









I see you live in La Verne. Before you decide to try live steam, you might want to come up to Griffith Park and visit our track there at Los Angeles Live Steamers. See what it takes to fire and run a live steam locomotive. All act the same way.........only the size is different.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

The Accucraft Forney will not be able to make a 4% grade with RC. The only way you can get a cruise control on the Forney would be an almost level track. The Regner Lumberjack will be able to climb the 4% grade but when it runs back on the flat or downhill it will pick up speed. Is it possible to get that 4% grade down to a 1% or less? Like others said live steam needs attention especially on layouts with grades. I would try to get that layout as level as possible.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty;

I managed to get this photo just before my Roundhouse Millie started to scorch ballast (well, not really - but I had to make a fast catch-up to reduce the throttle) on Steve King's railroad. Steve told me afterwards that he had added some slight grades to the railroad to challenge the operators. It makes for more fun, but we really have to pay attention to things.

The next time I want to take photos there, I will get someone to fill in as an engineer for me.










Best wishes,
David Meashey

P. S. The Roundhouse locomotives are really good runners.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

I am too new to add much to this discussion, however I did read that Accucraft Dora is a geared locomotive. I have read some reviews that noted a tendency to run a little "finicky" (that may be true of many of the smaller engines). Would "Dora" be a candidate? If you spent $400 on a Dora and found yourself bored and ready to move on after a year how much of the initial cost could be recouped by reselling? Would an engine like Dora depreciate significantly in a year's time? 

Also, I think that someone new to steam would find it difficult to buy used (successfully) unless someone with more experience could be recruited to help. Not that there aren't great opportunities in the used market, just too many potential pitfalls. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIYZMPaia0k


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

The Dora is a great choice. You cant beat the price and its geared. Im not sure what you can sell it for after a year or so. It will depend on the availability of a new one and are they still being produced by then, I would think they will be produced for a while like the Ruby. I would keep it and maybekiitbash it into something. Might be a good steamer to experiment with after a years time.


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

I have a section I am planning with grade (though more in the 2.5%) category and figured straight to a geared engine. While more expensive I knew I wanted a logging style engine (Shay, Climax, Heisler) and will have to consequently save for it. 

Right now I would like to look at the Accucraft Heisler but after watching the videos not sure if geared enough for ease of use on even 2.5% grade. The 28T Shay if it is basically like the 3-cyl Mich-Cal shay looks like it will do the trick. 

Of course from the prices I see, the Climax is the least expensive of the bunch 

Lorna


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Guys, i'm leaning toward the Regner Lumberjack. Please let me have your opinions. Thx.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Underdog, I know several very experienced steamers who are veeeerrrrrrry far from bored with their Doras. It is a unique "fun" engine. As to the grade thing, On my track I finally stopped rebuilding once I leveled out to 2% grade. At that, pison valved standard locos could run without RC. The Asters and others still needed RC or would run away. It was about a 50 foot run. 

Dave


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd take my Lumberjack over my Dora most every day.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

"I'd take my Lumberjack over my Dora most every day"So what are the operational characteristics of different locomotives that might have appeal? I can understand how "scale" and "modeling" aspects of a certain locomotive might provide appeal (this includes bashing), however I'm not clear on differences in operational characteristics (aside from the ability to say add remove control). I hear comments like, " that engine is a good runner" or "no surprises" but I'm not sure what we are talking about. From an operation perspective what is so different from one steamer to the next that someone might prefer a Lumberjack to a Dora to a Roundhouse (besides details of scale or ability to model a look).


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

From what I've learned, steam locomotive models differ in the features and operating characteristics. 

Some locomotives need a push to get started. Many lack cylinder condensate drains, and have to be worked back and forth before they'll run smoothly. Some are hard to achieve a desired speed, or consistency of speed. Many don't have functional suspension. Different fuels have different behavior. Some lack a method of adding water to the boiler during a run. I'm sure for many people, accommodating an existing railway's limitations is a consideration, too.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

It sounds like "Skeeterwiezel" has some specific grade issue here to work around that make the "Lumberjack" appealing and Regner seems to have a strong following. Sometimes you hear a recommendation for biggers to go with a Roundhouse "classic" series engine like Billy or Katie and this recommendation is qualified with a statement like this; ...."they.....operate much more like a real steam locomotive." What might this mean? Why not a Roundhouse "Jack" instead of a Lumberjack?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Underdog on 15 Feb 2014 06:58 PM 
It sounds like "Skeeterwiezel" has some specific grade issue here to work around that make the "Lumberjack" appealing and Regner seems to have a strong following. Sometimes you hear a recommendation for biggers to go with a Roundhouse "classic" series engine like Billy or Katie and this recommendation is qualified with a statement like this; ...."they.....operate much more like a real steam locomotive." What might this mean? Why not a Roundhouse "Jack" instead of a Lumberjack?

When I went looking for a "Live Steam Locomotive", I found many that were just a boiler and some kludge of a steam "motor" to drive the engine and I didn't want that sort of "silliness". Then I found the Aster Light Mikado and that was is when I found a "real" locomotive! But that is not to say that the others were bad, only that they didn't meet MY wants/needs/desires.

I cannot attest to the characteristics of any particular brand/model of loco (except the Aster Light Mikado... and I call it near perfection for realistic operation), but...

Some have a single "wobbler" cylinder concealed in the cab with gears that drive the wheels, and have "decoration" cylinders on each side at the front and side-rods that are for looks only. 

Some have a "slip-eccentric" for reversing where you must push the engine in the direction you want it to go in order to set the valve gear correctly for that direction. 

Some have "fixed" (unchangeable) valve gear and reversing is accomplished by a hidden valve that reverses the flow of steam to the steam chests (changing them from "inside admission" to "outside admission"). 

Some have "real" valve gear, but lack one simple, but "precise" (which might make it difficult/expensive to manufacture) part (specifically the "Combination lever" that allows for setting the lead of the valve gear in either forward or reverse or it might only "look like" a combination lever) but is only "decoration" and serves no useful purpose.

And then there are those that really do have the engineering put into them to make them "real" (my words!). Of course... you PAY for that engineering and manufacturing.

My opinion is that you need to decide WHY you want Live Steam... then do some web searches for what is out there. Find something that intrigues you and then ask specific questions here about that model... take a lot of the words with a grain of salt and filter the adamant love for particular locos against what everybody says and then check prices and then look at your finances and make your decision... If it doesn't "trip your trigger", it doesn't matter what it costs, you won't like it.

If you find what you want, the price won't matter too much, you'll find a way to get one! It took me two years of tax refunds and a long payback on TWO Mastercards to pay for mine... but I loved it so much, I did it again when the credit cards were paid off! Double-heading them things was fun for a while, but too much work to prep two engines at the same time... so I only run one engine at a time now.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't think 'Skeeterwiezel' has his track set-up yet or experience with live steam but it sounds as if much of the 'proposed' plan was out of view and requiring a 4% grade. 
What is actually 'needed' is still very sketchy. A trip to the local live steamers to get a better grasp of it all will probably change everything anyway. 
I think if he can make a smaller level loop which is all in view to start off with will be far wiser in the long run. Expansion may be possible later when more experience is obtained. Depends on his space though I guess. Good to keep the curves as large as possible for live steam so rod locos can get up to speed without tipping over. 

Smaller locomotives with smaller boilers tend to lose available steam and power quickly and will run in spits and spurts if not under ideal operational conditions. A better designed locomotive which is suited to it's given task will be more consistent and effective for it's duties just like on real railroads. 
To start out with little experience and a budget loco on a long hidden track with serious grades is setting oneself up for all the already known about problems. It just won't happen as imagined. 
'Skeeterwiezel' has done the best thing he could do by asking questions here first before spending his time and money which can easily all turn to grief. It is meant to be fun! 

Andrew


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Guys, thx for the discussion. FYI: my planned layout will be almost all visible. My buddy was over today and we discussed proposed layout and at this time i'm sticking w/ 4% grade. I really think it will work w/ my proposed cruise control and R/C. Frustrainting trying to decide on a loco. Would be nice to test drive like you would a new car. Trying to weigh the pros and cons of Forney and Lumber jack. 
Forney: 
Pros: styling, rod style (is this a pro?) 
Cons: smaller boiler, finicky running?, Power to climb 4%? 
Lumberjack: 
Pros: geared (should climb better), larger boiler, Regner makes better locos? 
cons: geared (may have cruising speed slower than i'd like), cylinder design ( what are wear characteristics of this arrangement? Maybe not an issue.) 

Marty


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Marty, from what you described it sounded as if your proposed layout went around to the other side of the house out of view for much of the time. OK if you follow it around. 
Rod locos go faster in general because the piston's rods are connected directly to the wheels rather than through gear reduction. 
I have an Accucraft 7/8ths Baldwin 0-4-2 Fairymead on order which has 'Full' Stephenson's valve gear that will have more efficient use of steam in the cylinders. Most locomotives only have simplified valve gear of various kinds. Full Stephenson's valve gear have four eccentrics instead of only two underneath. It also has full suspension which will give better traction on not so perfect track, cylinder drain cocks to blow out the condensation and a hand pump to feed water in the boiler. These are some of the things that make some live steam models more like a full sized one. 

Andrew


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Marty-- 

Probably almost all locos are good and well liked by different people. you seem taken by the Accucraft Forney. if you like that engine, I would recommend building a track on which it will perform well. grades in the 1-2% should work well. it will slow down going up and zip down. you can control the speed with radio control. I would not plan on the cruise control unless you enjoy tinkering with electronic controls. if you can make the track flat, you can run using the stock manual control. 

If on the other hand you really like the idea of the 4% grades, say to have an over/under pass situation, then you should consider geared engines such as Regner or an Accucraft Shay. choose between by which you like best and what you can afford. others can chime in, but I suspect that even with geared engines, 4% grades would suggest the use of radio control.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Skeeterweazel on 15 Feb 2014 09:22 PM 
Guys, thx for the discussion. FYI: my planned layout will be almost all visible. My buddy was over today and we discussed proposed layout and at this time i'm sticking w/ 4% grade. I really think it will work w/ my proposed cruise control and R/C. Frustrainting trying to decide on a loco. Would be nice to test drive like you would a new car. Trying to weigh the pros and cons of Forney and Lumber jack. 
Forney: 
Pros: styling, rod style (is this a pro?) 
Cons: smaller boiler, finicky running?, Power to climb 4%? 
Lumberjack: 
Pros: geared (should climb better), larger boiler, Regner makes better locos? 
cons: geared (may have cruising speed slower than i'd like), cylinder design ( what are wear characteristics of this arrangement? Maybe not an issue.) 

Marty 

Marty,One 'feature' of a live steamer hasn't been mentioned - the frustration coefficient. If the loco performs the same way without incident every time it is not frustrating (boring maybe, to the fiddler type of person?) If, on the other hand, every time you take it out something rears its ugly head and prevents you from enjoying whatever you were hoping to achieve, then the frustration level is higher.

Of course, the more you pay for better engineering (as mentioned above) the more likely the engine will do exactly what you expect. (The down side is that the more complicated engines are quite complex for a beginner - I would not recommend starting with a large Aster loco!)

Your Pros and Cons are pretty good. My pal Jerry (Naptowneng) has a Forney and it took him a while to get it to run to his satisfaction. I doubt it has the power to handle a train on your 4% grade - and you will need remote control to get it up the hill without you having to run to catch it at the top when it accelerates.
I've seen many Regners and all seem "solid performers". They do what they are supposed to do and things don't fall off or get choked with debris. (Roundhouse locos have a similar reputation.) I would unreservedly suggest a Regner geared loco will be more enjoyable a a first loco for you.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Phippsburg Eric - The W&Q has a hilly "mountain section" with a 3 percent grade (that is pretty close to Marty's 4%). Does that section present any unique challenges? Does the grade increase the "interest" in the operation of the W&Q?
Anything you had to work around? Or particular considerations when you were choosing an engine to run on this grade?
Note: I couldn't find it, but W&Q youtube piece of the cars freewheeling down the hill through the woods (with a few passengers aboard) is entertaining.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

On the Regner lumberjack, the kit price is $300 or so cheaper than built unit. Does the kit come painted? 

Lumberjack says R/C ready. Does that include forward/reverse. 

Again, thx for you help.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The Lumberjack, is a fully machined and painted kit. Ready to assemble. For R/C its not the easiest to set up but yes you have RC throttle and reverser and whistle can be added if you like. The hard part is the reversing as the servo mounts on the front of the loco on the side of the frame and most make a toolbox or water tank to hide it. 

My friend Shawn has a Lumberjack on a track with a grade and he just sets it to a speed and it goes all round the track no problem.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

To give you an idea on the Lumberjack vs Forney take a look at my videos. 

This is my Accucraft Forney with RC. I have around 1% or less grades. You can clearly see how it preforms on those grades. I would be shocked if it made a 4% grade. 

http://youtu.be/oYPHpFJ8v2c 

Regner Lumberjack without RC. As Jay mentioned I just set it at a speed that allows It to just make my grades. 

http://youtu.be/kuMWCOBoqbk 

Another fun engine and great on grades is the Bellflower Cricket 
http://youtu.be/QjItrpjdWss 

Then the New Regner Otto is a lot of fun and strong and it will go at a very slow speed without missing a beat on my grades. 
http://youtu.be/LfUhrVveFYU 

Then you have the Accucraft Shay 
http://youtu.be/mK2kI-mO7Hk 

A great book for someone getting into steam is A passion for Steam by Mark Horovitz and Steaming in Your Garden by Tag Gordon. It has great info and really has helped me mainly because I understand better with pictures. 
As you can see I like the smaller geared engines. For me they are easy to get going on sort notice, I love the charm they have and I know they will be reliable on my grades and easier to tinker with. I love all the moving parts.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Skeeterweazel on 15 Feb 2014 09:22 PM 
at this time i'm sticking w/ 4% grade. I really think it will work w/ my proposed cruise control and R/C.

Marty 
umm..except everyone keeps trying to tell you it wont work.

4% grade is out, for any "rod" engine..and 4% grade with "cruise control" is out..
not sure why you think it will work, when everyone in this thread has been telling you the exact opposite..

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Does the REgner Lumberjack technically count as a "geared locomotive"? 
when we say "geared locomotive" we generally mean "locomotives without side rods, and without cylinders in the "traditional" position." 
Shay, Climax, Heisler. 

Just because a *model* locomotive has a gear in the drivetrain, that wouldn't necessarily make it a "geared locomotive" from an operational standpoint.. 
The real question is, will the Regner Lumberjack freewheel downhill like a Ruby would? or will it instead act like a "geared" Shay locomotive? 
I dont know the answer..im just seeing some potential confusion and possible misuse of the term "geared locomotive".. 

Scot


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Marty, 

Can you comment on how you plan to implement "cruise control?" 

4% is a really extreme grade for a railway. LGB's factory pier system, really only workable on short electric trains and clean track, is 5%. Marklin's HO is 3.33%, and again only quite short trains can make it up. 

I recommend building a temporary railway to learn how your trains handle the grades, if you're going for such a grade.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff--
this video shows a 3% grade. this is a fairly powerful rod locomotive. it is at about the limit of its ability to pull the train up the hill. it is actually a fairly light train. at full throttle she creeps up the hill ( with the gas turned up. ) It is not unknown for the train to stall rather than make the grade! at the top she is blows off steam a lot until the gas is turned down. on the way down just enough throttle is used to start the train down the grade, from there she basically coasts with the throttle just cracked or closed all together. so far this line is an up-stop-back down line which can be negotiated by manual control but you do have to walk with the train and catch it at the top. it is much more fun with radio control. 

a geared loco would make short work of this hill. either a Regner type or a shay/climax/heisler type


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

A passion for Steam by Mark Horovitz: Available here on Amazon $$$ 

Steam in Your Garden: Steam in the Garden available on Amazon used here


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Shawn, you're my hero! Will you come over and help me w/ my layout? Can't imagine the work that went into yours. 

Scot, i don't think anyone has come out and said it won't work. Maybe there are those that are trying to dissuade me. But i think it will. 4% is only 2.3 degrees. I think short trains will make it. I plan to set up some track temporarily and see. Somewhere i read that someone has more than 4%, w/ curves. I believe it was live steam and not electric. 

BigRedOne: i plan to do something similar to deWintonDave. Check out vid and thread. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WKNQEL9_LY 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aft/124838/Default.aspx 
I bought the controler chip this weekend and made a test program and it works. Am optomistic i can make it work.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

PE: thanks for the vid. Maybe i'm setting myself up for failure, but i'm going to try. Not the end of the world if it doesn't work.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Wow, that's quite impressive.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,

I went over to Los Angeles Live Steamers yesterday to get a key for the engine barn to store my engine. While there, I talked to someone "in the know" that the proposed gauge 1 live steam layout is going to be built at the facility. You need to come up and visit the place, talk to some of the gauge 1 steam guys and hear the pros and cons first hand. After talking to these members, you might be able to make a smart choice for your first loco and get some help learning how to steam an engine. Just a suggestion.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx Gary. I was gonna go but decide to do some chores and watch Olympics. I'll get out there soon.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

4%? No problem.

http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewtopic.php?t=7796&highlight=friedel


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a rack engine, with gearing to the rack drive. Not at all like the engines you are proposing to use.

And yes, it will do well better than 4%, but it still requires good throttle control.

I see you propose using 'cruise control.' What is that and how will it work?

Happy RRing,

Jerry


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

But i believe loco is a lumberjack. Probably has lowering gears.

I posted some links in previous posts in thread re: cruise control.


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

That engine is a very specialized engine employing a gear driven rack drive. You can see the rack between the rails. You did not previously mention that you are planning to use a rack drive. 

The grade the rack drive is on is way beyond the capability of any simple traction engine. It might be a modification of a "Lumberjack," but it is a serious modification. Note that the pictured engine is a specialized design that incorporates a 'slanted' boiler mount to the running gear. The prototype of the pictured model would NEVER have been run downhill in the forward direction. Those specialized rack engines are designed to be used on steep grades, running in the 'forward' direction while going up hill, then running in 'reverse' back down the hill. Look at the Mt. Washington Railway for more information.

As to your 4% grade plan, many others with lots of experience have given you advice as to whether that plan will work. I see that you plan to ignore that advice. That is either how advances in the hobby are made, or that the resident 'experts' are validated. Please do let us know how your RR works!

Happy RRing,

Jerry


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

JerryB said:


> As to your 4% grade plan, many others with lots of experience have given you advice as to whether that plan will work. I see that you plan to ignore that advice. That is either how advances in the hobby are made, or that the resident 'experts' are validated.


Unless he has a method to alter the laws of physics, I suspect it will be the latter.. 

Scot


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm really surprised at some of the attitudes here. If i fail, that's my business. I've read all your posts in "my" thread and appreciate your input. But i don't appreciate the condescending tone of some (Scot). We all know how bitchen you are, so there's no need to beat-up on the new guy. My possible failures will have no reflection on you.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Skeeterweazel, lighten up abit until you have figured out who the people are. What you see as condescending is in many cases dry humor. I gave my two s
cencts n this and ended up feeling frustrated with your path as i had bullheadedly pursued it and failed and would up creating more work as I had to tear my railroad down and start again. Words are tricky. As Todd sez Love One Another.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,

Like Cocobear said, you need to lighten up a little.

Your thread said you were asking for help for your FIRST engine. First is the key word here. Meaning you have little or NO experience running live steam locomotives. Everyone here has given you a suggestion about what you want to do OR THINK you can do. Heed the advice. This could cost you some big money and BIG frustrations. All of us mean well. There is NO condescending. AND don't mind Scot.....he is just a little more "blunt" that I am. But it is frustrating to me to see you seem to try to "re-invent" the wheel.

Look at my avatar on the left under my name. That is me about 25 years ago running at Seymour Johnson's 7 1/2" gauge layout in Montecito, CA. That engine is a 2-6-0 "rodded" locomotive, live steam. Weighs about 500 pounds. It is fired with coal and I am the one supplying the coal to that engine. The layout was on a grade of about 2-2 1/2% leaving that station and that grade was about a mile long to the summit. It took me a year of learning that railroad to finally be able to learn how to get a passenger train (9-10 adults) to the summit and still have enough steam to continue on the rest of the railroad. Also it takes keeping an eye on the fire, water and when to add coal to the fire AND when to add water. You have to be thinking ahead of a steam engine. If you wait and don't anticipate what the engine needs, you WILL have to stop, because you will NOT have the steam pressure to continue. There is a 3 1/2% grade at Los Angeles Live Steamers, that is a "killer" for most steam engines. That grade has to been approached with a full head of steam 120psi and popping the safties, to make it to the summit! We even have a weight-distribution system on this engine so that when you shift the weight of the engineer forward on the tender seat, it shifts more weight to the drivers for increased grip and traction. As you can see, I'm trying to explain to you that under these circumstances you mentioned (4% plus and sit back and watch a steam engine run like an electric loco) ain't gonna happen. Period. Being perfectly blunt here.

I'm giving facts from my own experience running ride-on live steam locomotives for over 35 years. That experience also includes an oil-fired 1 1/2" Pacific (4-6-2).......a 1500 pound loco. This engine also had the same characteristics pulling people up a 2-3% grade. I know what I'm talking about. AND these are large engines that are way more forgiving than the "small" engines you are contemplating.

I have invited you out to our club to see the facility and talk to other "old-timers" in the live steam hobby. I believe once to hear the same story over and over, you will find you're getting good advice to make your live steam experience fun, NOT frustrating. The invitation STILL holds. Anytime!


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Dear Skeeterweazel (I LOVE that handle!) Most of us here (if not ALL) want to help you succeed. Many folks here have lot's of experience (way more than me) and we are kinda passing on lessons learned. I built my layout long before I had any live steam locos but they were on my sonar screen. The one thing I learned was to build the layout (mine is ground level, but that's a whole new topic) with the largest raduis curve as possible. For live steam and to allow for the most variety of steam engine types, build it as level as possible.

Nobody told my neighbor not to plant the elm seedling right next to my fence and no one told me not to lay my "Marty Cozad" concrete roadbed six inches from my fence line, now I've got a whole lot more to contend with than simple frost heave.

Anywhoo... Like most of the things we do, we should try to build things or assemble things as best we can, because without loads of attention and maintnenance and repairs, opening day will be the best condition any railroad will every be in.

On the other hand, don't strive for absolute perfection before running your first train, or you may never run one. I first built a pond, then built a loop around it just to get some cars on the track, then expanded from there. I was able to have actual work trains helping to extend the rails. (Fun, but kind of slows thing down!)

P.S. I never knew how far I would go in this hobby. It all started with a Frank S and the red and blue passenger cars from an LGB Stainz starter kit. Now I have more stuff that would fit in my Mini Cooper (or Tahoe).


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to have a 2.5% grade, going between my upper and lower decks. I also had a switched-in crossover, that let me stay on the upper deck, if I didn't feel like screwing with the grade.
The throttle, and the fuel settings, on my Roundhouse Katie, could be set so that she would not over-speed going down hill, and would stop at the bottom of the upgrade, and then, as she built up steam, almost walk up the hill. You could easily count the 1-2-3-4 of the chuffs. It was a beauty to behold, but it took a lot of finessing, (and a few derailments), to get it right. It has gotten to be more trouble than it was worth, and I have since taken the track down.








​


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Guys, thx for your replies. I'll keep that in mind.
Tom: if you had R/C on your Katie would she have been manageable going up/down your grade?

Thx.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeter,
My Katie came as a manual. I did convert it to RC. Stayed that way for a few years. I recently converted it back to a manual.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Skeeterweazel, on my original layout, as I stated, I had a 4% grade. On hot days, most engines could make it with RC. It just wasn't fun as I couldn't pull but a couple of cars and on cool days I couldn't pull any with most of my engines. I dropped that to 1.5~2% and it was a whole different ball game. I could pull almost anything in any weather. I still enjoyed having the grade as I loved to hear the chuff the engines would make as they went up. I still needed RC to manage the steam and to prevent runaways on the down grade. AS an FYI, the only engines that ever ran with a load satisfactorily with a decent load that were not running to fast that did not need RC were the Accucraft 0-4-0 switcher, their Docksider and their 0-6-0 switcher. Of course the geraed engines worked but I had no interest. Hope this helps.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx. CocoBear.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Think i can get grade down to 3%. Found free layout design software (SCARM).


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

If you're following the lay of the land, you can also borrow prototypical railway practices for managing grades and curves: cuts, embankments, tunneling, fill, bridges ... A bit more work to construct, but realistic in appearance and function, while improving operation.

You may also appreciate having at least one place on your railway elevated, so you can raise steam and adjust your locomotive without having to get on the ground.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,

Nice drawing! I'm looking into installing that software on my computer. Great to play around with it.

In looking at your drawing, it looks like the "rear" straight-away has the summit of uour 4% grade midway between the upper tunnel and the curve to the right. Correct? How long is the rise to that summit?


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

SCARM is what I am using as well. It has a neat 3d function, and parts listing
for track (though not all G track is available). I got my grade down to 2.5% with 11.5ft
diameter curve. I think a live steam Shay shoul be able to handle that without problems
climbing or getting away down grade. One can follow the engine though for throttle control


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Gary, yes, high point is where you said. Both grades up and down are 50'. Rise/run= 1.5/50= 3%. In going to 3% from 4% i loose a little height where i planned to have a chair to fiddle w/ loco. Will have to figure that part out.
Marty


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

You should considere what Bigredone mentioned about real RR practice. I did this on a section where I was to cheap to buy the extra dirt. I built the sides up with rock to the height needed and then filled it with dirt and rock. You can do the same and make it into a high line. In certain places make a gap and add a bridge or trestle. This will cut down on rock and dirt material.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Skeeter, I just found this thread but it's interesting. Many (ie 20) years ago I created a cruise control using a programmable microcontroller like you are talking about using--you will see my posts on that thread you linked to Dave's version. 
I have a couple of suggestions for you: 
- First choice would be to use a geared loco like a two cylinder Shay, but if you want to use a rod engine then:
-Not every rod loco is well suited to this purpose. For example, the larger the diameter the cylinder bore, the more pulling power and torque you'll have, and get better response from your control system at lower pressures than some of the Ruby variants, for example, with their small bores. Roundhouse engines are good in this regard, and I used a Roundhouse Billy. They are solid, heavy, well designed and have the power for grades. That being said, not even the most powerful engine will pull up a greasy track--and they all get that way eventually--so 3% is a lot better than 4%.
- for your control system, you may want to consider putting track magnets at strategic locations if you are going to have to "take a run at it", or start slowing sooner to prevent runaways. I'm not sure how many input/output pins your microcontroller has, but you can set up a couple with sensors for playing with those ideas.
- On your track design, since you're talking such severe grades consider what would happen if you do get a runaway--for example having a tight corner at the end of a long downhill may not be such a good idea--if you can think of a way to have a bit of a "runaway lane" or gentle approach curves that will help.
Good luck!

Keith


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Snowshoe/BigRedOne: I think i know what you mean. When i get to that point i'm sure i'll have quesions. My picture from program isn't exactly how it will be, just wanted to show track and grades.

Cougar: mostly likely i'll be going w/ Regner Lumberjack. It has some gearing to it, not "rodded". I'll for sure do some testing to make sure it will work w/ my grade. And i'll keep in mind re: "runaway". Added sensors may be fun. I would think i could put one in track to toot horn at a given spot.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Considering your grade is critical you can minimize the difference in height where the tracks cross over by using a thin stiff sheet of some kind to support the top track. If it crosses over away from the portal the small difference in height will not be apparent. By minimizing a little here and a little there, you may be able to achieve a much gentle grade and avoid most the problems.

Andrew


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is an example of the Lackawanna cutoff (high line) over here in NJ. They built this to replace a longer, more hilly, windy section.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Saw a video today of a layout that had a crossover. Thought that might work for my proposed layout. What do you think? May be a little more interesting.
Thx.
Marty


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Here's pic of cross over. Crossover? Just noticed didn't attach to last post.

Took the plunge and ordered a bunch of track today. Here we go....


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

To do my part to reducing the carbon footprint created by steam locos i'm starting a movement of "zero emission" rail roading. Not as exciting, but more exercise is involved.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Looks like you found a way of negotiating a 4% grade but you probably created a little friction therefore added to global warming. Shame on you Skeeterweazel.|

Andrew


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