# NCE with bridgework mag2425 powersupply



## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Is anyone using a bridgework power supply to power a 10 amp NCE powerhouse pro? Have you had any damage with using the supply? I would like to use the mag2425 I already have instead of buying another. Some of the suppliers have indicated that they may have to much noise resulting in damage. 

Thanks, 
Tim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Noise filtering in the supply should not make any difference to the supply, unless it is poorly designed. There is no evidence that the Bridgewerks has any design flaw here. 

The NCE will accept AC or DC and it does not have to be filtered. 

Having a more "pure" power supplied to the NCE will not hurt anything, it will make no difference to the NCE. 

Just making sure: what component "has too much noise"? The Bridgewerks, or the NCE? 

Regards, Greg


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg, 
Thanks for the followup. When shopping for an nce system system one of the sellers brought up that I need to buy one of their power supplies in order to make sure I did not damage the system. Sounded a little odd to me given the fact that bridgewerks makes good supplies. 
I'll go with using the bridgeworks that I have already 

Tim


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

what is the maximum output voltage of the Bridgeworks supply? Some of them go too high for comfort even for an NCE booster.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

now that makes sense... 

That's why I chose a regulated power supply... Bridgewerks have been known to put out 35 volts at lightly loaded conditions. 

That would probably make the NCE unhappy. 

I'd spend the $85 on a Meanwell, save the Bridgewerks for analog loco operation. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Bridgewerks have been known to put out 35 volts at lightly loaded conditions. 



More unsubstatiated allegations..will it ever stop?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, if I get people to come on this thread and say it happened to them, will you apologize? 

I guess you must be a bridgewerks dealer. 

How many people telling you this will substantiate this? Give me a number. 

Bud Steinhoff: 30 volts 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...d/100/Default.aspx?TOPIC_ID=45185&whichpage=2 

Did you want Bud's phone number to call him a liar? 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Add me to the list Greg, and there are lots of examples on the various train forums of others experiencing the same thing under light loads. I had one before I went DCC, and it nuked the innards of my blue croc sound from voltage spikes during winter snowplowing--and that takes some doing because they are well made. I know I measured nearly 35V at the time. After that I set the limit tab to about 1/2 the max. Never had a problem after that. Needless to say when I went DCC that transformer went too. Maybe they have corrected the issue, but anyone who thinks it didn't happen is in denial. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

People get defensive about any negatives on Bridgewerks, when they own one or sell them. 

If you look objectively at the design, it has the same characteristics as the Aristo trackside te, which can "leak" voltage under very light loads or open circuits. 

The output transistors do not always turn completely off... high current devices are not always great at very low current operation. 

Since the supply is capable of voltage in excess of 24 volts, leakage can put overly high voltage on the output under lightly loaded conditions, or problems. 

Under load, this is normally not noticed, thus running a DC loco will normally have enough load to never see this. 

But running a DCC system, when there are no loads on the track, excessive voltage can zap electronics that are not creating a significant load. 

It all makes sense, and it's not a "quality slam" 

It does underscore why regulated power supplies exist, especially around electronics. Vacuum tubes could take all kinds of abuse, solid state devices, like the new Revo TE, freak out if you overvoltage them (they use 25 volt electrolytic caps)... 

Bridgewerks are great big expensive supplies, built to heavy duty standards, but the design is NOT regulated. 

This is not negative, it's objective, and factual. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 27 Mar 2010 08:30 PM 
So, if I get people to come on this thread and say it happened to them, will you apologize? 

I guess you must be a bridgewerks dealer. 

How many people telling you this will substantiate this? Give me a number. 

Bud Steinhoff: 30 volts 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...d/100/Default.aspx?TOPIC_ID=45185&whichpage=2 

Did you want Bud's phone number to call him a liar? 

Regards, Greg So, Instead of you defending your own allegations you're gonna work it that so & so says this to back you up??

If that's how you want to play then yes I'm calling you & Bud a LIAR!!

I have 2 MAG25TDR's for over 10 years now and both are turned up to 30 volts which by your statement should put out over 40 volts lightly loaded but you know what? I've never burned out one single light bulb.

According to Dave Sauerwald the owner of Bridgewerks over 25,000 of his power supplies are being used. If there's a problem don't you think that you'd hear more than a handful of complaints here on MLS??

I've told you in the past that instead of bad mouthing a product that you have absolutely no experience with to call Bridgwerks at 800-908-9997 and talk to Dave direct but you don't have the balls to do this..I know as Dave is a friend of mine.

Infact if any power supplies have a surge problem it is your beloved switching power suppliy..Taken from Wikipedia..
Switched mode power supplies have an absolute limit on their minimum current output.[5] They are only able to output above a certain power level and cannot function below that point. In a no-load condition the frequency of the power slicing circuit increases to great speed, causing the isolated transformer to act as a Tesla coil, causing damage due to the resulting very high voltage power spikes. Switched-mode supplies with protection circuits may briefly turn on but then shut down when no load has been detected.


Liar?? Yes I'll call you out and say that you not only lie and that most of your "help" on MLS is really nothing but BS because you never produce any FACTS..only hearsey..just like the sticking gas pedals on Toyota vehicles which have been proven to be operator error.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

It is a full time job following certain people around dispelling myths and misleading info. I know a lot of bridgewerks owners and none have voltage spike problems. The only issue I've ever seen is people who mistakenly think they can use the unregulated Mag 15 power brick as a power supply by itself. Those do put out 35+ volts but they're more intended to be used with the BW line of unpower throttles, not by themselves. Of course a BW throttle type power supply can put out more than 24v+ if you push the throttle all the way to to top, but at least you have voltage avail unlike the MRCs which put out 18v max. I've owned 4 personally and is what I use for all my testing including my LED circuit testing... they don't spike.

So I guess it's up to the folks to decide what they believe. 


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so the unregulated output can put that level of voltage (35 volts), and the advice the OP got was correct. 

So, this voltage (35 volts) is not a defect. That's fine. I think there are no untrue statements on this thread, unless you want to take Bud and Keith head on. 

But since you are here Raymond, what about the people who want to take a Bridgewerks and use it as this thread is all about? ON DCC. 

*Here is the crux: 

If you take the Bridgewerks and put a 10 amp load on it, and then run the throttle up to 24 volts, and then remove the load, won't the voltage go quite a bit over 24 volts? * *

If this happens, it can destroy electronics looking for no more than 24 volts. * 

This is what this thread is all about... it's clear on the title of the thread. You don't have to follow me around and look for anything about Bridgewerks. I know and have acknowledged that it works great for you on DCS. I know and acknowledge it works fine for analog locos. I know and acknowledge it is of superior mechanical and electronic construction. 

It looks like from your input that the Bridgewerks is unsuitable for this application. 

As an analog throttle, and a power supply for other Bridgewerks analog throttles, I'm sure it is fine, but that is NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. 

You need to acknowledge that the Bridgewerks is not the ultimate power supply for EVERY application in model railroading. 

I do not believe it is advertised as such. 

I await your knowledgeable and honest answer to the above question in bold. 


Regards, Greg


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,

I see this thread has taken on a rather interesting direction. Sorry I did not get back with a few important facts as I was in Ireland last week and the Hotel wi-fi kept dropping in and out of working. So here are the facts with my question. The Bridgewerks supply information is below:

*Power-Mag* 

By far the most powerful supply on the market!
[*]Precision-regulated power supply - voltage remains constant at any current level [*]Ultimate protection against overload/shorts: Power shuts off and LED lights up [*]Two standard voltages available: [*]18.6V @ 30 Amps / *24V @ 25 Amps- This is the one I have currently
*[/list] [*]Custom voltages between 18-24 available at no extra charge [*]5-year warranty [/list] 

I have been using this power supply with a track-side Train Engineer as well as straight out 24v with the on-board TE without issue for many years now. Here with the local railroad guys it's known as Tim's Nuclear Power Plant as we have used it at one of the guys layout that exceeds 1000' of track with the Train Engineers controlling 3 separate loops on that railroad, has never missed a beat. In fact, the mallet I have runs best on his line when this supply is in use, suspect he has a few gremlin connections.

I did not realize this question would stir the passion it has but I like many of you do not want to spend hobby dollars on items that have to be repaired or replaced so hence I reached out to the group that I know have lived through these horrors with their new toys. 


So the noise that was expressed by the NCD Dealer was that he had heard of Bridgewerk supplies having spikes present on the signal that could damage the booster and suggested that I get a an Oscilloscope and checkout the output.So I guess I'll have to see if I can borrow one from a friend to discover if there is noise present.

Now the GOOD News...the NCE system has been ordered without an new supply at this time and is expected to be here April 1, I hope that's not a sign. Looks like it's time to download JMRI and start seeing what I can do with going forward. May have to drop a few questions here are automating the line as well after I get the Solenoid Controlled Air switches in per your website instructions.


As always, appreciate the help and insite.

Tim Headings


P.s - May need to reach out to Ed as he is over here in Florida and also call Dave at Bridgewerks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tim, please be sure to tell Chuck and Raymond that it was not me that called your dealer!!! 

I think from all that I have heard, the spikes that people talk about are not noise, but overvoltage. 

Raymond confirmed in his post that a particular model can put out voltage that is too high for the NCE (I believe max DC input is 27 volts). 

Since Raymond has a full time job following me around to dispelling myths and misleading info, maybe he will take a break from obliquely attempting to insult me, and help someone by presenting the information you are asking, or at least answering the simple question I left for him. 

Or maybe it's the "seagull theory" in action... 

Anyway, the key is that under any conditions, you do not want the supply to exceed 27 volts DC. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

Enough already![/b]

*The name calling will stop NOW or this thread will be locked!*

*Jim Francis, Moderator*


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

All, 

Just for clarification I called the dealer while shopping for a NCE system and was told that he had heard that some people reported that their bridgewerk power supplies had voltage spikes. His recommendation was that I purchase another supply in lieu of using the Bridgewerks. This sounded a little like a sales job to purchase more, so I posted the question here. End of story. 

Thanks to all for the insight, I'll proceed with caution. 

Tim


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to comment on the bridgewerks question, as I know nothing about Bridgewerks, but I can report that the meanwell power supplies work extremely well with the NCE DCC system. If you are looking for a power supply to use they are a good option


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg wrote;

( Anyway, the key is that under any conditions, you do not want the supply to exceed 27 volts DC)

Seems that NCE recommends not exceding 36 volts DC..hmm..seems that 35 volts DC won't even harm a NCE PB-110. 


This is taken from NCE's own website cut from the PB110 booster instruction manual..See line 9 about the maximum absolute safe voltage










* 
POWER connector
* The Recommended input power for the PB-110A is 16-22 volts AC or 24-32 volts DC. The
supply must be capable of supplying about 10 to 12 Amps (180-250VA) to get full output from
the booster. We recommend the Hammond Manufacturing model 165T22. This is a 22 volt 12
Amp transformer. It is also sold as Allied Electronics part number 836-6185. (Allied phone
number is 1-800-433-5700 MC/Visa accepted). Also usable is the Magnetek model F-259U,
a 20 volt 10 Amp transformer (Allied part number 967-8442).
Do not a use power supply that can supply less than the recommended voltage and current. If a
short circuit develops on the layout the PB110A will not be able to protect itself.
The absolute maximum input voltage is 24 Volts AC or 36 volts DC. Do not exceed these
ratings! Always measure the transformer voltage before connecting it to your PB-110A. A
booster that has been ‘over voltaged’ will almost certainly result in booster failure and void the


warranty (we can tell if this has happened).


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course it no longer matters what the 'original topic' was, these supposed issues have to be addressed to ensure others aren't mislead. To scare people needlessly from a good product is a disservice at the very least. So don't try to deflect attention or responsibility Greg.

A big reason why so many use the Bridgewerks is because they have that bit of reserve voltage available if needed. As is the case with some here wanting more than 24volts to the track for their DCC to get greater top speed because of their sound cards using 3volts off the top. The BW throttles have a stopper to allow you to control how far you move the throttle so you don't go beyond where you want. 

The example proves the point, putting a Bridgewerks throttle all the way up, removing a full load and having voltage go to 35volts, isn't a spike... it's returning to the max voltage it can put out... that is why they come with a throttle stop... so you can set the max voltage you want to operate at. The voltage variation between full load and no load is small and is the nature of throttle type power supplies... if a load is removed then voltage may go up by a small amount but nothing in a dangerous range. (You aren't going to set it to 24volts then suddenly have voltage jump to 35volts with the load removed. If you have wild voltage variations you have a defective thottle potentiomenter and it's very likely the power supply has been abused and left out in the elements.) If a user is running with the throttle all the way to the top, they do not understand the capabilities of the product they are using.

If the Bridgewerks power supplies produced these dangerous 'spikes' no one would be using them.. me included. 


Raymond


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## ArticulatedAl (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh great information Ray, thanks for that, see this is why I stopped coming to this site awhile ago and somewhat browse it here and there without posting. Some members putting blatantly incorrect information out there on products or methods that is solely maybe lets say THEIR experience or inexperience for that matter. It's really lame! This should be stopped and the persons that attack a product like so should be warned or something by a admin if they even care. And its funny a good bit of these posts always contain this Greg fella.....................


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

From a practical point of view, you do not want to run more than 27 volts DC. This is because, even with a factory modification, the max output of the unit will be 24 volts. Feeding it more input voltage just creates more heat in the output stages of the NCE.

I did not go into that level of detail. 


So yes, I did not check the absolute maximum rating on DC for the NCE, but more than 27 volts will not give you any more output. 

So, change the number, 37 volts will damage the NCE. 

So the question remains; "is the output of the Bridgewerks regulated so as not to exceed this voltage, even for an instant?"

I'm actually making it easier on the Bridgewerks to succeed... run it up to 35 volts under load, and it won't go up to 37? 


That's all that needs to be answered. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I must be missing something here. Raymond admits the bridgwerks puts out more than 24V (he says 35). When I bought mine, it said 24V DC on the outlet. The last time I looked the power supplies said the same thing. Not 27. Not 30. Not 35. Not thirty-friggin-7! And it put out more than 24V, fried my electronics, and you guys think that is within spec? Come on. You must be plugged into the Kool-juice socket. 
You confirm exactly what me and many others have said all along, yet you continue to slag Greg--I don't get it. 

Keith


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Last warning "gentlemen." This name calling will stop now or we'll be forced to stop it for you. Then you'll be crying that we "censor" and "take sides." You are all adults. Please act like it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If you guys believe all this I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'll sell cheap. Later RJD


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I know I'm going to regret saying something, but maybe this will answer the question Tim asked originally in a way that settles his decision, if nothing else: 

I recently asked the same question. Except I asked Mr. Sauerwald, with whom I had enjoyed previous communications. Here is a reproduction of the question and the answe, unmodified except that I've removed the e-mail addresses in an attempt to avoid spamming of either partyr: 

*From: Matthew Brown 
To: David Sauerwald 
Sent: Sat, March 20, 2010 6:30:11 PM 
Subject: Double Check 

Dear David, 

Some time ago, I purchased a Mag10SR from you. It's been a fantastic power supply.... and I have every reason to recommend Bridgewerks to any who ask. 

The railroad, however, is changing ... and we're considering implementing a DCC system. 

What can you tell me about the AC output of the Bridgewerks Mag10SR? Is it as stable as the DC side? If I need to turn it down a bit from the 24 volts, is there an adjustment that can be made to do so? Are you aware of other customers who use your power supplies in this manner? 

Thanks for your help ... I would love to continue using the unit if it makes sense to do so. 

Best, 

Matthew Brown 

---------------------------------------------------------------- 
From: David Sauerwald 
To: Matthew Brown 
Subject: Re: Double Check 
Date: Mar 20, 2010 8:29 PM 

Matthew, 
Thanks for the compliment. The A.C. output was for lighting and is not the best answer for your use. We stay away from DCC 
and are mainly into track power where there are much fewer problems. Some of the train stores can probably give you better 
answers than I can. 
Dave 
* 

That's pretty clear to me.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Mar 2010 07:46 PM 
now that makes sense... 

That's why I chose a regulated power supply... Bridgewerks have been known to put out 35 volts at lightly loaded conditions. 

That would probably make the NCE unhappy. 

I'd spend the $85 on a Meanwell, save the Bridgewerks for analog loco operation. 

Regards, Greg 

We'er not defending Greg E. or any one else but we did have problems with an older Bridgworks 4 throttle unit we tested for some train buff do to our size of our layout. They were going to sell it and it has been not used for a long time. 
First thing I did was a mistake. I put a USA GP-38-2 on the set up area and forgot I had the motors truned off. Also.. after hooking up the powerpack I had one throttle crack open to the tracks. There was NICE light flash when I put the Eng. on the track.. Yup I blow all of the light out and the makers to. I fig. i must of hooked up something wrong and did a check with Dital volt meter with light blowen and had 37 volts dc. I fig. that not right so went in and got my portable scope to see just what was going out to the tracks.
Same thing with small spikes across the DC bar.. I took the throttle back to off position and put a Aristo center cab that I really didn't care if I messed it up or not ( I was going to rebuild it anyway.) and it had no motor off and on switch.. so Light and motor is on when you put it on the tracks.. Well it ran fine and the scope show no spiking and smooth range on the throttle.. I tryed the other three throttles and same with them. So I fig. it was a hokes or something I did.. I finished testing the Bridgeworks four bank throttle and every thing worked fine.. I even put 6 USA units on the track and MU all together and no problem with the units to the track power. So while I was talking to the people that brough it over to test. I just happen to put a USA Stream liner coach by it self on the track and started to put voltage to the track and poof.. Blow all of the light in that. Now thinking this is getting expencive to play with this 4 unit throttle with only lighting on and no load of an eng. For some reson with out some kind of a load or a 4 or more small incedesent bulbs it dosen't know what to set or fix the voltage to.
Bridgeworks is a darn good power pack but not to sure its for electronic or a few bulbs with out some kind of a small fixed load to work it. Got to remember this is an older unit and not like ones being made now. lIf we were to hook this up to our TM's from the Fixed D/C side, we probably of messed up them being most of the caps in the TM's are max 25vdc. 
I know out here in the country where we live our voltage drop is bad do to we are next to some fast food and 7/11 but they have there own transformer supplys, We are on two leg off of a Delta transformer on our grid here that is 208v ac. So we don't have the full Voltage most homes have like some with a full 220v ac to there homes. You would think I would have less DC voltage to the high end of the thottle but we didn't.
Were not dowing Bridgworks and there products but it sure was expencive for us to have to take and Eng. and a Pass Car apart to replace all of the lighting. Also this probably can happen to any un-regulated power pack no matter what brand it is. Sorry for the long post but it can happen and not to sure if I would use older models on electronics equip. for a main power sorse. But if you want power to run your long Pass train with 3 or 4 PA's it will do it.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Any power supply that puts out too much voltage at zero or light load can be "patched." If the power supply responds badly to a light load, then the solution is "don't do that." Put a ballast resistor across the output terminals of the power supply and leave it there forever. The value of the resistor will have to be determined by experiment and it might get hot if the value has to be 100 ohms or less. Use P = (V^2)/R to determine the required power rating of the resistor. The constant load provided by the ballast will keep the power supply out of it's bad zone. 

A 100 ohm resistor will draw 240 mA at 24 volts and dissipate about 6 watts. If you have to drop the load to 25 ohms, the dissipation will increase to about 24 watts.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The value of the resistor will have to be determined by experiment and it might get hot if the value has to be 100 ohms or less.That's a good point to emphasize. Back in my early 20's I was working the Test Dept. in the transformer company I work for. Our ammeter had crapped out, so as an interim measure, we used a 1 ohm (I think) resistor in series with the primary and measured the voltage drop across it. That gave us the equivalent current. 

The resistor was made by Dale, and was one of the big 50W or better jobs completely encased in a finned aluminum heat sink with just the ends and axial lugs exposed. All went well until one of the transformers under test had a shorted turn and the current went through the roof. Within 1/2 second or so, the resistor got so hot internally that it literally blew one end out. A 1" or so piece of the internal resistor shot out of the heatsink enclosure like a rifle bullet and buried itself lug-first in the opposite wall around twenty feet away. Scared the bejesus out of me. Thank God no one was in its path at the time. 

Moral of the story - be very careful with power resistors. Better to use one over-rated than under-rated. Crank up the voltage slowly and monitor the current, at least at first. Stuff can go wrong with very dangerous consequences.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When Calabrating X ray equipment for MA. I would use a 10 ohm high precision 50 watt in the center tap of the HV xfromer and my oscilliscope 

Back in the 60's when I went to De Vry in Chicago we were taught to use the oscilliscope as a volt meter.

I still do in my train shop some times


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 31 Mar 2010 07:48 AM 
When Calabrating X ray equipment for MA. I would use a 10 ohm high precision 50 watt in the center tap of the HV xfromer and my oscilliscope 

Back in the 60's when I went to De Vry in Chicago we were taught to use the oscilliscope as a volt meter.

I still do in my train shop some times



J.J. We were taught Like your on the same thing in the 50ths at Grant tech col. while I was in my last yr of Hi school. That why we used a ocilliscope to do some testing on why I was blowing bulbs. That how we fig. out that we had to have a balast/load for a true voltage reading.


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