# Wheel plating or lack thereof?



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Comments on Ted's thread with regard to ART's GP-40 leads me to inquire about a similar wheel plating problem.
 
Greg,
You commented in the other thread, something like “to bad it’s not brass “. Sounds like you believe if the wheel “base” material was brass it's all good, with regard to the nickel plating wearing away? Nickel plating on steel wheels makes sense to me simply because it’s such a poor conductor. 
All,
The reason I ask is twofold; we have a couple of LGB 22560 Alco's with lots of time on them and the nickel plating is all but gone on all twelve axles. I was contemplating replacing the wheel sets. The Alco's seem to work fine without any notable arcing. Since brass is not the worst conductor out there and is somewhat better than nickel should I be concerned, brass on brass? 
 In addition to the plating wearing away on the wheel sets the motor-wheel blocks which are manufactured with what I believe is an Engineers plastic or composite matrix are severely worn away and or elongated where the axles are supported by the aforementioned motor blocks. This has occurred from the many years of service together with or simply from supporting the weight of the Alco engine. 
As the engines were received from LGB the axles are supported solely on or by the thickness of the side wall of the motor block which is barely 1/8" thick.  If the motor blocks had some additional material cast into the mold much like a wheel collar or doughnut this would effectively double the surface area affording additional mass to help carry or distribute the load IMO. 
 
I’m left with no option but to obtain new motor blocks for both engines.  Rebuilding the two engines is costly; motor blocks, motors, wheel sets, carbon wipers/brushes, pick-up shoes, axle gears and intermediate gears/shafts exceeds $600.00 USD.
 
I pondered rebuilding the motor blocks by machining out the 6mm elongated axle carrier openings in the motor blocks to 10mm for flanged oilite bushings or perhaps bearings since 6x10mm is a common size. In either case the bushings or bearings must be inserted onto the axle sets prior to pressing the wheels back on as they’re held in place by the motor block top plate.
 
Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Plating eventually wears off. Really good plating lasts a lot longer. I don't expect Aristo to change the quality of plating, so when it gets down past the plating, you are on the "base" metal... steel is bad for track power for many reasons, and I pointed out 2, pitting (steel is a poor conductor) and rusting. Brass would be superior as a base metal in Aristo's wheels is my point. 

Brass is a better conductor than nickle. Nickel is normally used because of it's appearance, resistance to oxidation, corrosion, and it CAN be nice and hard... (there's always alloys of everything)... definitely harder than brass. 

I have no idea what the plating Aristo uses is, it's not nickel... LGB plating appears to be high quality nickel. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Turn some stainless 'tires' heat them up and slip them on, like they did with the real steam locomotives. But if they still work fine, why worry?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's precisely what I am going to do with my Aristo steamers... 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Brass is not a good material for loco wheels that pick up power because brass oxidizes too quickly, especially under the conditions of arcing at the wheels which can evaporate wheel material, oxidize the vapor instantly and redeposit it back into the pit left behind by the arc. Nickel and SS are better in this regard because they have to get a lot hotter to evaporate and the material doesn't oxidize so readily.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree george, but was trying to select a metal that has a chance cost wise to be used by Aristo. No chance on the NS or SS from Aristo, in fact it was requested enough that Lewis looked into it and rejected it even for "Add-on", not stock. 

Have you determined what USAT wheels are made from? 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

the stock wheels seem to be Ni plated over a copper alloy base


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

and that's why they do not rust when the plating wears... wonder what the alloy is? 

Anyway, it's superior to steel I can sure tell you that... I've never cut one up to see, but that reminds me there are a bag of USAT wheels with traction tires in my garage... now where is that bandsaw? 

Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I get it now Greg, thank you. 

Jerry, Stainless wheel rings sounds like another intriguing project. But SS is not a good conductor? 

Great explanation George, thank you. 

Michael


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

They make SS track for track power, so I imagine it would be fine. Might find SS tubing that you could just slice rings off of, but you do need a slight taper, so if it was thick enugh, you could turn that, then put the rings on the wheels. You could turn the original wheel down so it is straight across, that way you would only have to turn the rim down on the outside of the ring.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

SS is not AS GOOD a conductor as copper or brass. Over short distances, the higher resistance is a moot point. The problem is HUGE resistance caused by defective plating, or severe pitting/arcing. 

I'm doing just what Jerry says, although I am having trouble finding SS tubing that has a thick enough wall to incorporate the flange and the tread in that small of a diameter. 

I think I will have to go with bar stock. I've got to drop by Sherline (they are 5 miles away) and ask them if I will be asking too much of their lathe. 

TOC thinks I am asking for trouble with SS tires on SS rail, but I don't think the surfaces will physically "match" closely enough for galling (usually caused by cohesion). 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry let us know how it works. Later RJD


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I was just suggesting RJ, I ain't doin' it!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah Jerry come on with all that talent you have should be a good challenge. Later RJD


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## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

Stainless steel tires are good conductors. I make Stainless and brass (centers) wheel as an alternative to the stock wheels (Bachmann).

Rule of thumb; to heat shrink the tires onto the wheel centers, the wheel centers must be .01" per inch of diameter larger than the tire opening. On my 2" and 1 3/4" I make the wheel centers .02" larger.


Works well.

Additional note, have a few commercial installations running stainless track. Stock Bachmann wheels wear out very quickly. I insist if they are using my drive that they use the brass and staniless wheels.

Barry - BBT


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

*SS wheels may not be the panacea that everybody seems to think they R...*
*As noted by Barry in the above post, an others from time to time, SS track is *
*hard on Ur softer plated metal wheels, well it follows that the opposite should*
*also be true, SS wheels R going to be hard on the 8-10 ft diameter brass an*
*other soft metal track that the majority of us run... I've already seen some evidence *
*of **this, so unless U already have **SS track **down, U may want to rethink the SS *
*wheels thing.. **Wheels R a whole lot cheaper to replace **than track these days...*
*Paul R...*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, there is a lot more railhead than there is tire on locos... It would seem that wearing the wheels of a loco, which normally causes grooves and running problems, would be less preferable to losing the same amount of material from the rail head. 

Wheels are actually not cheap these days, $10 each from Navin at Aristo, there are 12 on a SD45. 

Regards, Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

*The $120 U spent for a doz wheels won't get U much track at today's prices either... *
*I'm thinking that **the wear rate, based on my own limited experience with SS wheels *
*on brass track, **and a little I've heard from others, is **that the wear rate for this combo,*
*is a lot higher than I'd want to **tolerate... We already know that SS track **is tough on Ur 
softer wheels... **Seems to me **like SS wheels and** SS track is marriage made in Heaven, *
*and maybe we should leave it at that... hehe*
*Paul R...*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think anyone thinks it's a panacea, just an improvement

Although I think even with SS wheels the problem will remain if the motor draws too much current


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Way back when I worked at niagara Hobby they had a large oval of LGB brass for a display and we were careful to run the little stainz in opposing directions from week to week the railhead was worn to the web on the inside of the curves in a little over 4 years. Interestingly enough the plastic wheels on the wagons behind were worn to knife edges too. The loco got better regular maintenance and eventually they ended up with two locos to swap out when one needed to go in the LGB for service. In my mind one needs to choose what they prefer to maintain on a regular basis. Wheels or rails. 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My concern is the poor performance in power pickup WHEN the plating wears off. It WILL wear off. On the Aristo locos the base metal is steel and it RUSTS. 

So, I'm nowhere near being concerned with wearing out my rails, I do have SS track. If I had brass track, I would still be in the same situation. 

Also, the nickle plating on the wheels has to be about as hard as the SS. 

For track power, when you have something good and conductive, it seems you have either nickle or SS to work with. I cannot see any "softer" metal that would keep conductivity. 

If I went to a softer metal, ignoring the oxidation issues, then the wheels would wear at an even more frightening pace. 

Yes, run nice soft rails continuously on sharp curves, and with little cleaning of the rails in a display will wear them down... and LGB brass seems much softer than USAT or Aristo. I've cut them all with a hacksaw. 

Anyway, I'm interested in wheels that MAINTAIN their conductivity, and I feel that for myself, that means no plating... so my choices are SS, Nickel Silver, and possibly brass. Brass is out from oxidation and too soft. NS is cheaper than SS in most cases, but still oxidizes. 

That's my line of thought. 

Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

All this talk about wheel plating reminded me of my old Espee 3839 GP7 wannbe GP9. Looks like wheel plating is an issue with this old girl too, to her credit she has many hours of operation on those tired old gams... 
Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, looks like your maintenance department was on strike! 

Not only work, but dirty it seems, but you are missing a traction tire, and yes a lot of miles. 

One of the good things here are that the parts are readily available from USAT, and it's not $10 per wheel, and the wheel base material is not steel, which rusts and pits terribly, but some kind of copper-bearing alloy. 

Unless you really need them, replace the sets with traction tires with new wheels w/o the tires, better pickup, you can probably dump the sliders then, I have. 

Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I like to model with a hint of reality, Espee went broke, and didn’t they only fix em when they wouldn't motivate any longer, same on my old pike! Truth is this old engine hasn't seen any service in years; I'm bringing her back to life with a few others I have laying around complete with DCC and sound. New wheels it is, but I'll probably get the correct size wheels from NWSL. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, you will find that the diameter is actually scale... flanges are too deep, tread width not too bad. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You can buy the replacement wheel sets for about $18 from USAT and also now your rid of the traction tire. later RJD


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg, 

I maybe wrong on this one but I recall the USA wheel sets scale at 36" diameter verses the prototypical 40" diameter they ought to be.... And yes the flange and taper are closer to the prototypes too! And at $35.00 or so per loco for NS plated wheels its affordable IMO. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Michael, scroll down the following page, where the parts list is, look at the description of the wheels, and I give the wheel tread dimensions in inches. Multiply by 29 and see what you get. Those are actual measurements from my locos.

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-36* 


Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg, 

Not sure where you going with this info, you show 1.126" for the F3's and Geeps; 1.126x29=32.654. What am I missing? 
32.5/29=1.12 
36/29=1.24 
40/29=1.38 

I just looked and NWSL does suggest the EMD's use 40" wheels. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

33" I guess... they seem to be undersize... just measured what I have... looks like you found a discrepancy in the USAT model! I concur, they should be 40" 

Regards, Greg


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