# Is it possible to do this??



## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Is it possible to add a DCC function decoder like the TCS FL4 Function only decoder to the AIRWire G2\G3 cards or the QSi Gwire\Titan combination running on battery power?

The use for this additional decoder would be to add a small motor to automate the bell and possibly the fireman as seen in this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyR...DEC002D80F 

If this is possible, how would you go about programing the decoder?


Thanks in advance

Dave S


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, you can "parallel" DCC decoders, because it's the same as multiple locos on one track. 

Be sure to note the operating voltage of the FL4 

You will need a way to program them separately... if you are familiar with "decoder lock" you can do it without additional hardware. 

For most people I recommend a spst switch on one "input" on each decoder. This way you can disable either decoder to program it separately. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It is possible on the Airwire G2/G3 boards, as they have a dedicated DCC booster output on the board specifically for function/sound decoders. The QSI/G-wire solution isn't so cut-and-dry. The G-wire receiver does have output solder pads on it for interfacing with other decoders, but it's not a straight 2-wire DCC output like it is on the Airwire G2/G3. There are wiring diagrams on QSI's web site which might give some insight into how to wire them to other decoders. I've heard anecdotally that should be able to output parallel to both a QSI decoder and a function decoder, but have not been able to confirm that with QSI. 

Check the power ratings on the function outputs of the QSI Titan. If the motors don't draw that much current, you may be able to tweak the lighitng effect outputs to run them instead of the lights. That would save you the need to worry about the FL4 running in parallel in that installation. 

Later, 

K


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Thanks for confirming it can be done, with a little experimentation. I am just now learning about DCC so I am unfamiliar with "Decoder Lock" at the moment, but I will look into it.

Basically I'm looking for a way to turn on and off a small servo motor that will be synchronized with the bell button on the GWIRE and with the sound card on each loco. I'm sure i'm not the first person in large scale that has wanted to do this.

Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, I looked at the video. 

First, he made a mechanism using a motor that when the motor spins it moves the bell. 
The FL4 decoder is made to run lights, so clearly the motor is a low current motor. 
In addition, the FL4 has no motor output, so he must have used the dimming function to run the motor. I have a few FL4's and know the dimming function is PWM so this makes sense. 
Now, you must understand that he has tweaked the motor speed to match the bell ringing speed from the sound decoder, and it will take some playing. 
Also there is NO guarantee where the bell is in relation to the sound of the ring. He's got it synced on the video, but it is because he turns the bell off at a certain position by pressing the F1 at just the right time. 

So F1 is triggering the bell sound from one decoder and the motor running from another. 

It's clearly one way of doing it, but unless you get pretty handy with shutting off the motor at just the right time, don't expect the synchronization like you see in the video, be happy with the bell ringing at the same rate as the motion. 

The dimming function is not designed to give fine speed motor control, but clearly he has gotten it to work. 

I'd say that you could use the lighting outputs of any decoder that has dimming to do the same. If you are using Airwire, then I'd either use the G2/3 and a Fl4 or I'd use a titan alone, not the older QSI. 

Most people would think to use a servo motor, but you want the oscillating action, and most decoders only give you manual control to programmed limits, not oscillation, although you should check this. The Zimo and ESU and Massoth do have servo outputs.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It was something I was looking into doing when I built my C-19, as it had a large boiler that could fit all the necessary electronics inside the boiler instead of running a bunch of wires between engine and tender. I was also going to do synchronized smoke, and really "pimp the loco out." My dad has some FL4 boards he uses to trigger older Sierra sound systems when needed which I planned to appropriate, so I had everything at least mapped out as to how it was going to work, just not assembled and tested together in a locomotive. (BTW, Jonathan Bliese of Electric & Steam Modelworks--MLS "K27-463"--has some very nice, very small gearhead motors for precisely that kind of thing.) I was all set to get going on that when I needed the Airwire board for another loco, leaving me an Aristo Revolution for the C-19 instead. So the idea got shelved until the "next" loco. _That_ loco was a Bachmann 2-6-6-2, but halfway through that project, I came to the conclusion that a 2-6-6-2 was out of character with my railroad, and an opportunity to trade it for something else came up. So, "next time." But where I've seen it done, the effect is pretty slick. It remains on my "short list" of cool things to add to the next locomotive, whatever that is... 

Good luck, and please post a video of what you come up with! 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave if you do this project, feel free to contact me by email. 

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Sure thing Greg, And I will try to document the install and post it here as well. Right now I am in the planning stages.The first loco that I am going to convert to Battery\ RC \ DCC will be my Bachman Mogul with an Airwire G3 \ Phoenix Model 97 Sound combination. I sent an email to both CVP and Phoenix on how to connect the Model 97 to the G3, CVP said to contact Phoenix, Phoenix replied with some questions and I sent them the answers back on Wednesday but they haven't answered back yet. If the Model 97 wont work with the G3, I will need to look into another inexpensive sound card.

Note, I originally bought the Model 97 (a long time ago) for my Bachmann Shay but I decided to put a Gwire\Titan combination in it (should get it on monday) and also in my Bachmann Climax since they will be my main locomotives for the time being. I already bought the Mogul sound chips for the Model 97 so hopefully Phoenix comes thru with a wiring plan for the G3. If not I will try to use the model 97 with the railboss I bought for my Bachmann Industrial Mogul.

I'm still reading manuals and anything I can find on DCC, hopefully i can start this project next weekend. 

Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not sure the 97 will tolerate DCC... you may have to take the motor output, put it through a filter and give to the phoenix. That 97 pre-dates my strong knowledge. Did the 97 also have a battery? 

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Yea, the Model 97 came with a 9 volt rechargeable battery that no longer works (Looks just like a standard 9v Battery).

I am going to research other inexpensive sound cards tonight.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can still buy those batteries, the important thing is to get the voltage, in the same size and shape two different voltages were offered, 7.2 and 8.4 .. 

You could also use a 6v gel cel battery.. I'd prefer that one if there is room. 

This manual explains the 2 battery voltages and the jumper used to set 9v operation http://www.phoenixsound.com/pdf/Diesel97.pdf 


I'm pretty sure you will need a filter between the motor output and the input to the model 97, Aristo sells one, and so does Tony Walsham of RCS.

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I got the wiring diagram today from Phoenix, Does it look good to you guys?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Whatever they say, not familiar with the model 97 and PWM from motor. Having motor input AND a speed reed confuses me, seems strange. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That's normal. What Phoenix calls "Speed reed" is just the chuff trigger (or for diesels, the motor rev trigger). That's how the Phoenix knows the wheels are turning, and the rate at which they are. The voltage from the motor is used for polarity-sensitive things (directional whistles, etc.) and to trigger automatic sounds like start-off hiss, automatic grade crossing, etc. I don't know if the '97 Phoenix board does this, but 2K2 and later use changes in the rate of chuff to vary the volume of the chuff to simulate applying the throttle when accelerating or closing the throttle when decelerating. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh... yes kevin, that is obvious... 

Let me rewrite the sentence for you: 

Having motor input AND a speed reed confuses me, seems strange. BECAUSE WITH THE REED SWITCH INPUTS YOU SHOULD NOT NEED ANY MOTOR INPUTS. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry, Greg, you responded while I was editing my post to clarify; the Phoenix uses both voltage and locomotive speed for different aspects of sound control. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool, I can learn something new! 

So is this written up anywhere? That would be great to understand, or at least read. By knowing the "difference" between the actual speed, and the "speed called for" you can do more things with sound. 

I think that the Phoenix reacts to changes in voltage to change some sounds to simulate acceleration or deceleration, but I would really like to see what they have published. 

Whatever has been observed is interesting also, but my direct observations are only guesses on what is really going on inside. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

So is this written up anywhere? 
I wish it was. It'd make programming the systems a lot easier. But there also appear to be variations between individual sound files, and there may be variations between boards, and there are seem to be differences whether the board is seeing a DCC signal or not. It's all been purely experimental for me. For instance, the "dockside" sound file will blow the directional whistle when voltage is first applied to the motor, having a full "toot, release break" sound sequence it plays. Others won't blow the whistle until the chuff switch is closed for the first time, and there may or may not be a brake release sound associated with it. The chuff volume appears to be controlled to some degree by both voltage and changes in speed, or even possibly reading the speed steps from the DCC input as opposed to the voltage going to the motor. For instance, I run a healthy bit of momentum on my locos, and on some, I can quickly crank the throttle to full to get a really loud "CHUFF", or just a little bit to get a less noticeable change in volume. The actual voltage going to the motor hasn't increased all that much in either case, and the momentum setting keeps that rate of acceleration constant whether the throttle is jumping 10 steps or 100. I don't seem to be able to get quite that same "finesse" control of chuff volume with my non-DCC controlled locos, but in fairness, my DCC controller has a knob I can jack to the end almost instantly. I can't do that with pushbutton speed control. 

It's fun to tweak these sounds for a given locomotive, but each locomotive seems to be unique in how it reacts. I've thought about writing up my own observations to help others, but with so little consistency from one to the next, I don't think it'd be very helpful at all. A lot of "trial and error," but since that process involves sitting and running trains for quite some time, I'm not complaining one darned bit! 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Kevin... it's too bad that these differences could not be controlled by CV's externally, as opposed to being "locked in" a sound file. It's funny that a DCC compatible sound unit does not have these options. 

Actually some of the pushbutton speed controls allow you to set how many "speed steps" a single press is... I know mine do that, although I have buttons AND a knob. My knob also has a "ballistic" adjustment, so it will react more strongly if you move it fast. 

Anyway interesting to hear that different steam files seem to react differently like whether or not the chuff switch interacts with the starting toots. 

Thanks, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I too would love to understand the effect of the speed sensors (magnets and reed switch like used to control chuffs on a steam engine) with a diesel sound. My P8 manual does not tell you much. It just says that these two leads are used for chuff with a steam engine, but that diesels usually just use the voltage input to determine the speed impact. I would love to know what else the board does if you have speed sensors inputting to the diesel sounds too. 

Ed


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I don't have access to my email right now, but I am pretty sure the email said to NOT use the reed switch if using on a diesel engine. The diagram I posted was for a steam engine.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I read both the Phoenix Model 97 and Airwire G3 Manuals twice tonight and the physical wiring looks fairly straightforward except for how to wire the firebox LEDs or Lights (I am assuming they are LEDs).

Also from reading many posts online here, I guess it is best to remove all the Bachman Electronics and just use the Airwire G3 and Phoneix Model 97

Lastly, what kind of magnets are best for reed switches? I am missing them.

Getting the GWire remote and Airwire to talk and programming the G3 look to me to be the biggest challenge.


Thanks

Dave S


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

For the firebox lights, I normally just feed the existing "main" board off of the battery. That gives me straight battery power to firebox and cab lights whenever the power is turned on. (It's nice to have some visual reference that you have power in case you don't get sound or motion when you think you should.) I figure it's a steam engine--the firebox is going to be glowing if it's in a position to move, and the existing electronics take care of the flicker. Remove the headlight and motor leads and wire them directly to the the G3 (unless you also want the headlight wired directly to the battery. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't). 

For the wires, any "rare earth" magnet will work. I prefer 3/16" dia. x 1/16" magnets for my triggers, as they're just a bit more powerful than the 1/8" x 1/16" magnets. Lots of places on line to find them, they're pretty inexpensive. 

There are some weird issues when programming the Airwire boards with the NCE G-wire cab. I've not tried programming the G3 with the NCE to know if those issues exist with the new board, but I had issues with the G2. (Unfortunately, it was a few years ago, and I can't remember what exactly they were; I just know it didn't work consistently. Some CVs could be programmed, some not.) Try it; if you have trouble, buy or borrow an Airwire transmitter to get things programmed, then use the G-wire transmitter to run the loco. It works fine for running, though some of the macros don't work (for example, one-button momentum adjustment). 

There's a Yahoo Airwire group that's been very helpful with issues I've had over the years. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, in this post you bring up that there were some programming issues using the Gwire cab. In another thread you questioned me on what incompatibilities there might be on the new CVP "command station in a box". 

This underscores my comment and apprehension about CVP changing things so a competitor's product did not work with their system. 

If the one-button momentum does not work, then it's a limitation in the G3, where it cannot take commands quickly enough, that button sets CV3 and CV4 in rapid succession. The QSI and other decoders will work, with the verbal announcement feature off. 

It's CVP's right to make their system proprietary but it further removes them from the DCC standard and I believe it limits their market. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That would be because I didn't know that _those_ were the issues you were referring to, hence me asking if you could clarify. Once you answered, it clicked.  

I don't know that CVP has _changed_ anything specifically to foster incompatibility. The NCE G-wire throttle has never been fully-compatible with the Airwire throttles. That's just the nature of the Airwire receiver vs. the G-wire receiver. The Airwire throttles are designed to be 100% compatible with the Airwire receivers; the G-wire throttle is designed to be 100% compatible with the G-wire receiver. That there's crossover capability is a happy coincidence born from the Airwire throttles being the technology upon which the G-wire receiver was originally built, but designed from the outset with capabilities that exceeded that of the Airwire throttle. 

Later, 

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the sounds Phoenix did was the 2 toots for starting forward and 3 toots for reverse on steam engines, thus motor polarity is needed for these to work properly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Dan, reading polarity makes sense, sensing direction could not be done with the magnets, AND then the circuit above makes complete sense, the diodes only conduct on a certain polarity. 

It's fun to understand these nuances. 

Greg


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