# experience with Sunset Valley track



## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

I have used Suset Valley track for my outdoor railroad and am looking for some suggestions on laying it from people who have used it for awhile. Here is my experience:

About 15 years ago, I began my first garden railroad using this track. At that time I was laying it on a dirt roadway using rail joints. I asumed that the track would espand and contract with no problems. But, with constant expansions and contractions, the track would push apart the connectors. Thus, I was continually pushing it back into place. 

For my next version I locked the track lengths together with rail clamps and floated it on sand. I lost a number of tie sections due to UV attack, but this was replaced by the factory. I went through a couple of rebuilds laying the track on dirt. 

After that I laid the track lengths on 2-inch thick styrofoam which was fastened to leveling boards supported by pegs driven into the ground. My plan was to bury the styrofoam with dirt up to its top and paint the exposed foam to protect it from degradation. This proved to be a good solution and trains were running.

But I didn't get around to burying much of the roadbed and keeping it painted. So over several years as one would expect, the styrofoam began to crumble at the edges. Then, a couple of years ago, the elk came through destroying much of the track. 

My best idea so far for rebuilding is, for the straight sections, to support the track on some sort of composite material that will stand up dimentionally. Ideas include Trek-deck 2x6s or other composites including cementous materials. The support would be leveled and fastened to cement pourings. For the curve sections, I would pour concrete supports. My plan is to support the straight sections by screwing down the tie materials to the composite material using rail joiners between track lengths to allow for expansions. The curve sections would be rail-clamped together and allowed to expand and contract.

I live in northern New Mexico at about 7000 feet. High temperature extremes (-20 F to 100 F) with little moisture. But we have a higher UV index then most other places. On the other hand, we do not have a problem with frost heave even though we often get below freezing in the winter. I also run my engines on batteries, so don't have to worry about track contact.

So I'm back to rebuilding the pike, but before I start, I have some questions for people who have had experience with this track system. First, how long have you had the ties last without degredation? Second, how do you support the track and has your support method lasted? Third, what do you think of my ideas for supporting the track?


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had it for about 18 years and have had not any real problems. Most of mine floats, some is done with the ladder method, some lays on top of landscape blocks. I used the SVRR sliding connectors and their small clamps, no problems with either one. I'm in central Neb and we have temps between -30 to 100+. I was just told that Accucraft code 250 ties will also work and clamp on a bit better, not using scale spike head, just a flange, might check those out.


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## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks, that's promising. When I first started using the SVRR, the owner told me that he had had problems with the fabricators leaving the UV inhibitors out of the mix, but that that problem had been solved. Later I think he had more problems and as I said he replaced a couple of boxes of tiestrips for me. The problem with the elk increases my uncertainty, since what they didn't step on, they dragged across the ground so that at least half of the tie strips were ruined. They were, by the way, after water in a small pond inside the layout. That's been removed, so hopefully they will stay out. 

What's the ladder method? 

I think what I will do is rebuild the layout with what I've got, then gradually transfer to the Accucraft ties if I lose the SVRR ones. Landscape blocks also might be the answer, although I'm worried about the magnitude of the rebuild. I have a double loop, continuous with one passing over the other. Radii on the turns are 10-foot with 24-foot straight sections. So I have about 350 feet of track with 10 turnouts. 

Thanks again.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Do some reading in this forum, there's pictures and everything.... no really... See thread; 'Tired of living the lie'(ladder) or under Marty Cozad and JJ for concrete roadbed, just to name a few... 

Lotsa inspirations. 

John


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Track or battery power???? I'm talking here about battery power. I use concrete roadbed and glue the track down to it with construction adhesive. I just make sure the rail joiners are not too snug so the track can expand and contract. Proper gapping is critical. Some of my track has been down 5 years now without any major problems. Also,the newer Sunset Valley tie strip spike heads have been beefed up a little and the new railjoiners are half again as long as the old ones. I have done quite a few posts through the years with photos if you want to search them out. Here is a link to some photos by Rick Marty that were shot last month during the national convention. http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


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## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

I run three Bachmann 440's. All are (or were since the batteries are mostly gone) powered with 14.4 V drill-motor batteries from Sears that fit in the tender. The motors and wheels have been replaced and I moved the speaker to the cab to make room for the batteries. The "chuf-chuf" circuit board was also moved to the front of the engine. When new, the batteries lasted about 2 hours and recharged in an hour. I will probably refit them with newer 18-v Nicads to increase the speed.

I use Locolink radio controls that fit in the tender with the battery. The battery can be pulled out for recharging. When operational, I would run two trains (with two controllers) whenever the grandsons came around. I'll try to get some pictures of my system made and post them here.

What kind of adhesive do you use for holding down the track? I would think that Liquid Nails would work if it held up to the weather.

I've looked into the website further and now have a better idea what people are doing. Also understand "ladders". I've got a lot of surplus redwood sitting around and may try that system.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Regarding securing the track.... with your temperatures your track will experience expansion and contraction. I think JJ's idea of screwing a wire to the roadbed and a loop of the wire over a tie offers the best room to grow. The track stays down, but can move in both directions. 
I've found that as long as each rail connects to the next securely the whole thing moves as one, but I float mine in ballast. It weathers monsoon storms just fine. 

Liquid nails crumbled outside, for me. less than a year, but my temps are more extreme than your mild ones... ha ha. 

John


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I use Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive. I run a solid bead down the center spline of the Sunset Valley track,set it in place and make sure the track is sitting level. If there are any uneven spots it is easy to adjust before the glue starts to set. If at some point you need to remove the track it is not hard to slip a putty knife under it to loosen the glue. The temperature range here in Western Washington will get down into the 20's and into the low 90's with of course plenty of moisture in the winter.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/Eastcurvewoking1.jpg
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/Eastcurvewoking1.jpg
I was going to post a photo of the ladder, but every time I try it comes up a red x.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi, I live in Placitas NM at about 6000 ft. elevation, where are you? Sounds like our weather is about the same as yours. I have had about 470 feet of SSV track down for about 8 years. The track is laid on crusher fines in a 6 inch deep trench lined with landscaping cloth and ballasted with more crusher fines. I have had some trouble with heavy rains washing the ballast away. I tried glueing the ballast in place but that didn't allow the track to expand so was pulling it lose from the ties. A better method is to build a small berm along each side of the track and add glue or cement to the berm. Then leave the ballast loose between the berms. I use SSV rail clamps at all joints and have not had a problem with UV destroying the ties. I don't have elk but do have wild horses and had to build an electric fence around my layout after having to pull up much of the track and straighten it 3 times in a couple of months. I do have to re-level the track about once a year but that is usually less than an 8 hour job. Good luck with your rebuild. I belong to the New Mexico Garden Railroaders www.nmgrr.com or call 505 890-3386 if you are interested.


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

Where is the cheapest place to get code 250 tie strips? I have a bunch of code 250 rail (box labeled Railcraft, tried a SSV tie strip and it works). I've handlayed all my track indoors but I's like to use ready made ties for an out door layout. 
Thanks 
Dave


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am in Arizona just outside of Phoenix at about the 2000 ft level.

I have about the same climate. It gets to freezing and will form a ice skin of puddles. No forst heaves.

I use concrete road bed.

I made movable forms out of steel 






























The spacers are 1/2 inch platic pipe. When the formes are removed they stay in the concret. 

What is great about this, once the concrete it cured you never have to go back and relevel your track. You may have to re ballast from time to time but your track is always just the way you left it.

In the summer time here in New River AZ it is too hot to run trains so my layout sometimes gets neglected for months at a time. All I have to do is brush of debris from the track and fire up my battery car and run trains. 

This is how I anchor my track.

I use plastic anchors you get at Home Depot or any hardware store.

They take a 1/4 inch hole.

I drill a the hole in the concrete road bed and insert the platic anchor.

I then take apice of wire and from a loop around the screw.

The wire I use is the stuff they use to tie rebar together.

You can get that at Home Depot in the re bar section

I then insert the screw in the achor and bend the wire over the tie.

see last picture 





















I also make a butter fly by cutting a 2 or 3 inch piece of wire and making the loop in the middle I then bend the wire over two ajoining ties.

ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT IS remove alll screws from the bottom of the track that hold them to the ties. This allows to rail to flex some when expanding and contracting.

JJ


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## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

Winn,

Hi, I used to be a member of the NMGRR club but dropped our since it was a ways to travel. For a couple of summers, they came up to view my progress in the late 90's I think. We also lost one of our members here.



As to electric fences: when I had a vegetable garden I put one up--two strands of wire on insulators, one at about 6' one at 4', with two feet of chicken wire to keep out rabbits. It worked fine to keep out the elk. Interestingly, I found I didn't have to electify it. There are lots of electric fences around here and the elk have learned to recognize the insulators.

Anyway, I live in White Rock, near Los Alamos. If I get this going again, I'll probably rejoin the club. Good to hear from you.


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## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks, JJ, for your complete reply--I may decide to go that route. All the pictures are appreciated.

Also, thanks to everyone who replied to my original posts. I've learned a lot in the last few days. It was good to find this site.

Dean


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Dean,

This is what I used, 1x2 plastic house trim and 1 1/2" pipe.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Having just read this thread, my question is: Elk in New Mexico???? Elk are in Maine. In New York we only have deer, not Elk. How did Elk get way down there? Is it some sort of annual migration or something?

JackM


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## dhcarstens (Sep 10, 2010)

Jack, technically you are both correct and incorrect. Elk are a species of deer. According to Wikipedia "In North America they adapted to almost all ecosystems except for tundra, true deserts, and the gulf coast of the U.S." I supect the elk have been driven out of New York, but they are certainly all over New Mexico, Colorado, and I suspect the rest of the mountainous western states. We are in a small community with 2-acre townsites where we are, and periodically the elk move in even in the summer--they like the gardens and the trees. Since they are much bigger than the mule deer (which also has a habitat near here) they aren't scared by people much. We live about 30 miles from the Valles Calderas National Monument which is home to around 4000 elk and probably as many or more deer.

Dean


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Dean - 

Even considering my trip in May, 2009 - a fair amount of Route 66, down I-whatever to visit my bro in Phoenix, back up and on thru Death Valley, thence thru SLC to Mt. Rushmore and back home - I never imagined anything like an elk. I've seen Buffalo and Caribou from the comfort of Amtrak, but never Elk. Do they make good pets? 

Dean - 

How do you get the crisp edges for your trough? Mine always look like I had the beers, THEN did the digging. 

JackM


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## SoCalStu (Dec 27, 2007)

We stopped in Georgetown, CO this summer to ride the loop train. Four elk were standing on the other side of I-70 watching us go by on the train!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

We have Elk in Western Nebraska even, and they are all over Wyoming.


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