# T-1 on the water



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Hi All, T-1 are on the water.There three week journey,than a week in customs.So if You have one on order,"it's on it's WAY.If You want one better order one now,just about sold out.
I will post pictures as soon as it get's Here.Nice to have Christmas in May/June.


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

For goodness sake Bob, as you are going to be an owner of one, there is NO HYPHEN used by the Pennsylvania Railroad. 
It's a T1! (as I was informed when I used a hyphen!!!) 
They should be quite the loco. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a song by George and Ira Gershwin, from 1937. "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off."


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Chris, Are You shure ? I thought it was the Beatles " It wont be long"


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not think about the song title and your subject. I was referring to the lyrics. 



http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/...-Off-.html


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Hi All,Here is My Rak of Penn Coaches,Now to get the T-1.O"YES "David on My 1946 Penn Calander Put out by the Penn Railroad it has the Hyphen,So I will use it. O.K.


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Bob 

Promotional Calendars are such accurate purveyors of technical information. 

Engineers at GM got the details for installation of exterior parts of their automobiles from the magazine advertisements too. 

WOW!!!


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I just did a little online research, and the hyphen problem does not seem to be limited to the Pennsylvania 4-4-4-4. The Reading also built some 4-8-4s from I10sb 2-8-0s, known as their 2100 series. I checked four of the hits from my search, "Reading Railroad 2100 class steam locomotives." Three agreed upon T-1 as the class; one used T1. Since the Reading Company Technical & Historical Society is billing the class as the T-1, I'm inclined to agree with them. The only reason for presenting this bit of a tangent from the thread is this: Is it possible that since both of these railroads operated through central and eastern Pennsylvania - often serving the same communities - so that we now may be confusing Reading and Pennsy nomenclature? 

Just a thought, 
David Meashey 

P.S. As a Reading enthusiast and Hershey Hospital born Pennsylvania Dutchman, my favorite T-1 IS the Reading's 2100 series 4-8-4s.


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

The short answer is NO. There is no confusion. It is well documented in plenty of internal Pennsylvania Railroad documents that NO HYPHENS are used for any classes of equipment: locomotives or rolling stock. It is also well documented in the same way that the Reading Railroad USED HYPHENS in their class designations. There is no reason to hypothesize about such stuff, facts are facts, and anyone willing to do some legitimate research will have the correct answer. Unfortunately, that does not appear to fit the style of many who post on MLS. As a direct consequence, a significant amount of "so called" information on prototype subjects posted is based on opinion, hearsay, and sources of questionable technical merit. This is most unfortunate, as most people who ask the questions are expecting an answer that has a high degree of technical merit. 


BTW, if you look at the Accucraft web site for 1:32 brass, it is clear that they are not consistent. The locomotive is listed as a T1, the N8 cabin car is listed as an N-8 caboose. 

The real issue here is not what is correct, it is the simple fact that most DO NOT CARE if it is or not. So folks like David Leech and myself are actually expending useless amounts of mental exertion, bandwidth, and electrons to try to educate an audience that is not interested in knowing the correct answer.


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Jim and David,Thanks for the straight scupe,From now on it is a N8 ,K4 & T1.We will have to get Aster to change the K-4 to K4.We will have to tell Jim Pits.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob
I guess your going to let me pulled those nice cars with my K4 when I come your way.







They will go quite nicely with my matching loco. Later RJD


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther; Eether, eyether, neether, nyther, Let's call the whole thing off!

You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto; Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto! Let's call the whole thing off!


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

CHRIS,You are sick (must be the move to St.Louis) (hope You are not into drinking Budwiser.You better go back to Calf. 
RDJ,Yes You can pull them,That is what there for.With Your K4 
Should get the T1 in 3 week's


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Check this one out


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like a little slippage of the front drivers. One heck of a loco. Later RJD


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, it's been four weeks Bob. 
Have you got yours yet? 
Any news? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Maybe the next container that shows up in a couple of weeks. NOT in the current one which does have the T-12 D&RGW 4-6-0s. 

Oh well.


----------



## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

So the typo in the original post wasn't the inclusion of the hyphen in the middle of "T-1", it was the omission of the 2 at the end! By the way, does anybody actually say "potahto"?


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

In my hometown we always said "padadda".

Come t think of it we also spelled pizza, "Apizza", pronounced "Ah-beets".


----------



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The word is SPUD! I don't know if there is a hyphen or where it goes.


----------



## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

"The word is SPUD! I don't know if there is a hyphen or where it goes." 

Like.


----------



## Belpaire (Feb 15, 2008)

Or could it be T.1.? A certain group in Altoona thought it was.


----------



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That looks pretty authoritative: "T.I."


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Eric 

It depends on where "Belpaire" found that photo on the internet. A large number of reproduction plates have deliberate errors in them to distinguish them from the real ones. I have a GG1 plate that is a repro and the thing that makes it different from a "real" one is that it is marked "GG-1" and cast in aluminum. It is explicitly marketed as a "reproduction". 

Unless the plate in the picture above is authenticated, I would call it a reproduction and probably sold as that. If the thing is aluminum and is an exact copy sold as the genuine article, then it qualifies as a FAKE, not a reproduction.


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I'll be in Altoona this summer. I'll swing by the museum there with the kids. Last time I was there, they were not old enough for them to heve enjoyed it.


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Now, I am NOT a PRR T1 aficionado, but I do have a couple of builders photos and have tried to scan them.
It is still hard to see what is on the plate.
Maybe someone has a better shot.
This is on loco 5505.
It is hard to tell but to my eye, the 'T' looks a lot 'simpler', and if those are periods, I would have thought that they would show up shiny as well.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I found this on line. It is from an Austintown, Ohio show, held in July of '05. It is described as "a rare builders plate from a Pennsylvania Railroad T1 class steam locomotive". So apparently it wasn't a "T1" after all, but rather a "T.I.".











But the real question is "How many rivets did it have?"


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Tom, 
But that's a Baldwin loco, and may indeed have different 'non- PRR standard' plates. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Maybe someone can contact these people who seem to have a large collection of builders plate: 
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeoiysm/modelrailroaders/index.html 
Here is the reproduction one that Belpaire posted, just scroll down a ways: 
http://www.canteenbooks.com/reproduction_builders_plates_and_castings.htm 
It does say a 'faithful reproduction'?! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree that that plate is probably the reproduction shown on the Canteen books web site. they state that the plates are made from "original wooden patterns" which could mean originally made by the person making the reproduction or original to the railway back in the old days. I suspect the former. however, they look to be carefully researched at least and LOOK authentic. All the Pennsy plates seem to use a period after each letter or number, and their numeral "1"s look like the letter "I" throughout all the plates shown. 

If i turn my head just so and wrinkle my nose, I think i can make out periods after the T and I on the builder's photo. 

All that being said. were people in those days as careful about uniform spelling/punctuation as they are today with such things? Could one find official documents with the name "spelled" differently in different places by different people?


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam Locomotive dot com[/b]
*Pennsylvania Duplex Drive Locomotives*
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/duplex/?page=prr


Class T1 (Locobase 348)


Data from tables and diagrams in 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia. Works numbers were 62451-62452 in 1940 and 72764-72766 in November 1945; 72767-72768 in December; 72769 in January 1946; 72770-72772 in April; 72773-72776 in May; 72777-72780 in June; 72781-*72784* in July; 72785-72788


----------



## derPeter (Dec 26, 2010)

Hallo from Austria,
here i have 2 papers from PRR showing/written as T-1



greetings from Peter


----------



## derPeter (Dec 26, 2010)

here is the 2.nd:


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if the passengers cared.

"Hey Ralph, I'm not riding on that train. It's being pulled by a T-1. Nothing but T1s for me!"


----------



## derPeter (Dec 26, 2010)

Hallo Steamtom,

yes you are right, this hypfen is not my biggest sorrow, i hope more that my loco will come undamaged over the two big oceans ;-))

greetings Peter


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hope there are no bad storms over the Pacific ocean these days. Can't seem to find any news about the T1 arrival. 
Talking about hot tomatoes versus tomahtoes, Guess who went to welcome Viennese avant guarde composer Arnold Schoenberg on his arrival in the US when he fled the anschluss? His good friend George Gershwin, is the answer, I guess most railfans couldn't care less, but those who like classical music or jazz for that matter might apreciate to know. It's like if a Ma and Pa 4-4-0 pulled a Q 2 out of a bad spot. 
Well I'd love to welcome the T 1 when it comes to this side of the Atlantic Ocean (as a matter of fact I ordered it from a German importer). A seven car pennsy limited is already waiting for it as well as a K 4 stable companion. 
Lets hope it will be as good as the real ones were. 
Simon from Valmondois, France


----------



## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

After looking at the photo provided by derPeter, I was wondering why the Buick portholes on the front side? Are they art-deco or functional as an air intake?


----------



## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

I have always wondered why the T1, T-1 was mase with a single frame instead of articulating them. Anybody know why? 

Chester Louis SA #64 
Hampshire County Narrow Gauge


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I would suggest that it was much less complicated to build as there are no rotating chassis parts and steam connections that have to be able to move. 
Also, the track didn't require it as the total wheelbase is not that great. 
I believe that the concept was to lighten the load on the sets of drivers with lighter connecting rods etc., to have a freer running locomotive that would run fast. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Peter aka deltatrains, very kindly brought this to my attention: 
http://www.youtube.com/user/mbvschug/videos 
It shows a 'PRODUCTION' T1 on test in Germany. 
So, I assume that they must be in the USA by now as well????? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

David,Thanks for the info,I will post when I get My T1.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

why the Buick portholes on the front side? Are they art-deco or functional as an air intake? 
Carl, 

I think they were part of the design - 'art deco' as you put it. As usually happens, over the years they lost cladding as the maintenance guys didn't put it back, so leter engines were missing the portholes. I think.


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 21 Jun 2012 09:32 AM 
why the Buick portholes on the front side? Are they art-deco or functional as an air intake? 
Carl, 

I think they were part of the design - 'art deco' as you put it. As usually happens, over the years they lost cladding as the maintenance guys didn't put it back, so leter engines were missing the portholes. I think. 
They (PRR/Baldwin) started putting less and less streamlining on them to cut back the cost, which is a shame, cause the earlier ones with the full streamlining looked the best.


Less... 

And less... 


Eventually, yes, the holes were gone entirely. The only part that functioned as any sort of air intake was the grill on the front.


On a different note, if only they had made the Poppet valves out of better, stronger metal... :/


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Posted By HampshireCountyNarrowGage on 05 Jun 2012 04:04 PM 
I have always wondered why the T1, T-1 was mase with a single frame instead of articulating them. Anybody know why? 

Chester Louis SA #64 
Hampshire County Narrow Gauge 
Baldwin presented PRR with their revolutionary new idea of a Duplex: BLW Promo

It improved upon the monstrous S1, and a duplex lacked massive side rods that 4-8-4s sported, had smaller cylinders, and could run waayyy faster. Too bad the poppet valves were made of fail metallurgy, and couldn't tolerate long periods of +100mph operation...


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

couldn't tolerate long periods of +100mph operation 
Seems like a universal problem. "Mallard", holder of the world speed record, [see the A4 thread,] had to be towed home after the record-breaking run due to valve problems.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

why the T1, T-1 was mase with a single frame instead of articulating them 
A friend of mine in the UK made a very nice model in O scale, and he built two complete motorized two-wheel power units, with cylinders and all the bits, which he pivoted at the top in the boiler. It ran around curves very easily.


----------



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Peter aka deltatrains, very kindly brought this to my attention: 
http://www.youtube.com/user/mbvschug/videos 
It shows a 'PRODUCTION' T1 on test in Germany. 
So, I assume that they must be in the USA by now as well????? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 


David,I talked to Cliff today about the T1 on Schug web site.Clif told Me that it was a Prototipe.NOT THE PRODUTION T1.There were a lit of detale parts missing.They only sent it to Him for a show in europe,so all could see what it would look like and run.There are things that are not on the web site,like a Whistle.He said all would have them by the end of next month. 
Lets see what happens !!!!!!!!


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Further to discussions on the locomotive builders plate: 
http://tinyurl.com/7lrtw46 
I 'assume' that it looks like it is a PRR drawing, but not sure. 
Anyway, for those classes it shows the 'periods'. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By HampshireCountyNarrowGage on 05 Jun 2012 04:04 PM 
I have always wondered why the T1, T-1 was mase with a single frame instead of articulating them. Anybody know why? 

Chester Louis SA #64 
Hampshire County Narrow Gauge 
Yes, I know why..it's because the T1 was always intended be a solid-frame locomotive, and not articulated..
just because a loco has two sets of cylinders, and two unconnected sets of drivers, does not automatically mean it also needs to be articulated..

Think of the T1 as a 4-8-4, with a solid frame, same as any other 4-8-4, but with the 8 drive wheels split up into two sets,
with two sets of cylinders instead of only one..making it a 4-4-4-4, but with no need to be articulated, for the same reasons 4-8-4's dont need to be articulated.

Scot


----------

