# Are we cutting the branch we're sitting on?



## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Suggestions on forcing importers and manufactors of goods from china to strongly enforce and controll QC!!

1rst Tip: endorse a creditcard policy on any import which fails QC (payed amount for imports that do not meet QC standards will be disputed!!

Come on guys,Your turn!

Manfred Diel


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The people who are really stuck here are the importers. Aristo and USAT are not manufacturers, they are importers, they cannot directly control the factory. 

Bachmann is owned by Kader, there is more hope there, but since the mother company is Chinese (actually Hong Kong I think) this is not necessarily going to happen. 

When you import products from China, you pay for them BEFORE they are even shipped! 

So, the only way these guys can improve quality is either camp out at the factories to try to control and alert people when a certain quality level is not made, or go elsewhere. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I think I disagree somewhat with your conclusion, Greg. Aristo and USAT are customers of the factory in China. They have a lot of control over the quality of the product coming out of the door. I was in this same position with US manufacturers several times in my working career. Even if it means sitting on their floor with them for awhile, there are ways to get the quality you demand. So I still come back to the position, that quality issues are the responsibility of the importer, as you call them. They control the design, and they have to control the quality. It is more difficult being on the other side of the world, but it has to be done.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, I think they COULD have a lot of control over the quality, but they do not necessarily do this. 

I agree the quality issues are the responsibility of the importer, but the culture makes it a never-ending battle. 

Specifically, though, recent locos have had poor quality control. Sending the head of the company over there, instead of engineers is a guarantee that you will get locos with wires falling off soldered connections, wires not coming out of the holes in the body and ripping off from hanging down, couplers that pop open. 

The issues show that something is not right. Aristo, USAT and Bachmann have the ABILITY to have a lot of control, but they need to EXECUTE, not just take it when it appears on American soil. 

I strongly agree with your last phrase: "it has to be done". 

Regards, Greg


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Cutting the branch you're sitting on? Biting the hand that feeds? You betcha..


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

There was a well known importer of consumer (home) hi-fi/stereo gear, who imported Lots of big amps, receivers, tape decks, etc. ( from Japan, in the 1970s) The importer did supplemental quality control in the US ( Elk Grove Village, if I recall) to ensure a good reputation. It worked

cheers


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By ShadsTrains on 05/29/2009 11:41 AM
Cutting the branch you're sitting on? Biting the hand that feeds? You betcha..

Maybe just climbing out of the tree.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I definitely agree with your last post, Greg! It is a matter of will and determination, and it falls with the designers/importers/customer of the manufacturer.

Ed


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Finally, some people are starting to get it..... YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA







*


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05/29/2009 10:12 AM
I think I disagree somewhat with your conclusion, Greg. Aristo and USAT are customers of the factory in China. They have a lot of control over the quality of the product coming out of the door. I was in this same position with US manufacturers several times in my working career. Even if it means sitting on their floor with them for awhile, there are ways to get the quality you demand. So I still come back to the position, that quality issues are the responsibility of the importer, as you call them. They control the design, and they have to control the quality. It is more difficult being on the other side of the world, but it has to be done.

Ed


I agree Ed. Where I used to work, the Japanese were the daily pain in the rear. Our quality wasn't good enough for them, and they were right! Their constant poking and prodding and visits to the manufacturing floor made us change our ways, or at least work on it! And these weren't Japanese customers (directly anyway), it was our Japanese branch of our own company. It can be done. But of course if you are a small player in the overall scheme of things, like I'm guessing these trains things are, you really have no say. You gets what you gets!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Difference being the Maoist attitude that is in place in PRC that disavows any problems, in fact, now blames the US for poor quality imports (like, um,,,,,what?). 
One of the links I put in the other Chinese thread talks about that issue. 
And, the fact that there is no redress for outside-of-China consumers in Chinese courts. 

One imported told me, once, what they design and send over....what they get back often has no mechanical similarity to the original. 

If you are on the pricing structure where you have input, lots of it, you have to basically back-engineer the pre-production run to make sure, yet how do you deal with plastics that get adulterated later on? 
Like the Chinese tyres......the originals were fine, then they started leaving out the gum strip, and it ended in fatalities. 
The importer bought it on that one, as there is no recourse. 


Shad....."Cutting the branch you're sitting on? Biting the hand that feeds? You betcha.." not sure what end of the equation you are looking at. 

One thing, WE are the hand that feeds THEM. If we don't buy it, they don't get paid. 

Until something changes, BIG changes, I have no intention of buying more stuff that needs re-design to stay together.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Before any consideration to build trains in Mexico, a good look into the failure by General Mills cost cutting plan for Lionel. Tijuana, Mexico (1983-1985) was a Fundimensions costcutting disaster that Lionel fans would rather forget. Components were shipped across the border from San Diego, assembled by low-cost Mexican labor, and returned to the USA with minimal import duty. 

Randy


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Pesonally I think the Chinese are very astute manufacturers. They give their customers exactly what they want -- lowest cost --- carefully assembled product -- you specify what you want, they will give it to you, just like Japanese manufacturers, and just like US contract manufacturers.

Ed


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ed- 
Really? 
Saving 2 cents on each unit by substituting smaller-than-specified wire? 
Only ordering one color and PAINTING the wires? 
Finding the crappiest screws know to civilization and saving (themselves) 3 cents per loco? 
Buying Mabuchi motors at 23 cents apiece by the ten thousands? 


ALL of this is to make THEM money. 
You think leaving the gum strip out of the tire was a "carefully assembled product"? 

You think adding Melamine to food was specified by the importer? 

They seem to be playing on the fact that we can do nothing about it. 
There is always some moronic American who will buy the stuff. 

You really make me wonder, Ed.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05/29/2009 7:02 PM
Pesonally I think the Chinese are very astute manufacturers. They give their customers exactly what they want -- lowest cost --- carefully assembled product -- you specify what you want, they will give it to you, just like Japanese manufacturers, and just like US contract manufacturers.

Ed





So Ed , you re saying that some train importers could do better in QC of there products, now if we could only get them to listen.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I deal with Chineese manufacturing on a daily basis at work. I can say, NO they don't give you what you want. They try to give you something CLOSE ENOUGH that you will accept it, but they charge you for what you wanted. You do have to keep working on it, and eventually you will get what you want, even the Chineese understand that if you go somewhere else they loose out. 

Problem with Bachmann is, the owner is Chineese. So as long as we keep paying, they're going to keep sending the same old crap. Until Kader sells off Bachmann, i don't really see Bachmann being able to control their own destiny, which is unfortunate.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

You know, I wouldn't have a problem with the various trains imported from China being cheap crap, if they really were CHEAP! I'm sorry, but when a locomotive costs more than a used car, I expect some quality. If they were selling the latest Bachmann offering in Wal-Mart for $49.95, I wouldn't complain, but they're not. ****, even an Annie costs $100 on sale. 

When I read this thread title, I figured it would be about how the low cost Chinese models have encouraged the hobby to spread by getting more people interested, and that we should be careful about complaining too loudly for fear of ruining that glorious relationship. I came preparing for a fight, and to argue against that point of view. Not only have I not found that argument made here (which begs the question, what IS the point of the subject?), btu I also have a hard time understanding how anyone could even make the point, since there really is no cheap model on the market. Even the crappy ones are expensive.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Anybody remember Delton? How about Kalamazoo? LGB? People voted for the Chinese made stuff with their wallets, now is just a little late to change your collective minds. 

How does that old saw go? Be careful what you ask for -- you just might get it...


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Funnily enough, I've had no problems with my "Made in China" Accucraft cars.

Brass caboose is losing windows, but I think that's more due to outdoor heat and melting glue.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Cutting the branch you're sitting on? Biting the hand that feeds? You betcha..


I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding what you mean here. 

There's been a pervasive attitude from various manufacturer/importers that we'll buy what they make and like it, and shout about how much we like it, or they won't make us ANYTHING anymore, and see how we like it, ungrateful wretches that we are.

Except, as personified as these companies can be with their public profiled CEO's or forum member reps, or cartoon character moderated forums, they're still businesses making a product, not some good friend trying to do you a favor. That's why you have to pay for what they make, instead of them just sending it to you for Christmas with a big red bow on it. Somehow if there's a problem and people complain, immediately the masses spring up to shout "Shh! You'll hurt his feelings! After all he's done to make you happy!" 

Imagine worrying that if Siskel and Ebert didn't quit saying bad things about movies that the people in Hollywood would have their feelings hurt and we'd have no more movies! Or trying to shout down Consumer Reports for fear that we'd have no more microwaves, vacuum cleaners, or lawn mowers when the various makers of those maligned products decided to show us all what we get for complaining, and quit making them altogether!

This isn't about being ungrateful for the Christmas morning reindeer sweater that dear old Aunt Marge spent all summer sweating over.... this is about not being happy about issues with products that we spend a lot of money for. If your wife makes dinner and it's terrible, you smile and eat it anyway, because she doesn't HAVE to cook for you, after all. (and typically, we don't pay her for it, either!) In a restaurant, you send it back, and they do it right, and if they have any class, give you a voucher for next time; their JOB is to do it right, and that's why you go there to buy your dinner... and why it's in their interest to make it right when there's a problem.

If people are worried that if we don't shut up that we'll REALLY be given something to cry about by these poor misunderstood manufacturers, it's time to start wondering when the tail started wagging the dog. What they really need is some decent competition -- when you're the only game in town, there's no reason to keep your customers happy; when there's someplace else to go, people will go elsewhere if you don't keep them happy. In large scale, we don't often have that choice... but it'd be a mistake to continue to sing the company's praises and shell out money for what we don't want in the hopes that somehow this will encourage them to make what we DO want. There simply isn't any incentive.

Like I said, I really hope I misunderstood what you meant.

Matthew (OV)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 05/29/2009 9:10 PM
You know, I wouldn't have a problem with the various trains imported from China being cheap crap, if they really were CHEAP! I'm sorry, but when a locomotive costs more than a used car, I expect some quality. If they were selling the latest Bachmann offering in Wal-Mart for $49.95, I wouldn't complain, but they're not. ****, even an Annie costs $100 on sale. 

When I read this thread title, I figured it would be about how the low cost Chinese models have encouraged the hobby to spread by getting more people interested, and that we should be careful about complaining too loudly for fear of ruining that glorious relationship. I came preparing for a fight, and to argue against that point of view. Not only have I not found that argument made here (which begs the question, what IS the point of the subject?), btu I also have a hard time understanding how anyone could even make the point, since there really is no cheap model on the market. Even the crappy ones are expensive.


Chinese mfr Newquida makes a lower quaility knockoff LGB passenger car thats for all intents identical in detail to its LGB cousin save the plastic used in its making, but where the LGB sold for close to $200, the Newquida sells for under $40. Now I dont want to hear about all the reasons why the LGB was so much better or the history of the Lehmann family business, the point is that with products from the PRC its like we are getting that $40 car but they are still selling it to us at $200 flawed plastic and all. 

China is like the US in the late 19th century, Robber Barons, "The Jungle" and all that, they have to thru that learning process that unbridled capitalism comes with a huge costs in the environment, rights, and lives, and unfortunatly they are going to drag the rest of us along with them thru this learning curve. Those who say Chinese do only "close enough" are absolutly correct, the drive to make the most money possible overides every other thing. Its like they worship money.

That jet-engine like whirling you'll hear standing next to the grave of Mao Sa Tung is him spinning in his grave.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Spose them nuclear war heads the N. Korean's are sticking in the world population's faces are as well made as Botchman, and other things from over there????????????? we can only hope so that one of em doesn't end up in OUR backyards by mistake or on purpose!!! The Regal


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Matt's points are right on the money. The problem is that it's not as easy as "not buying it anymore." If it were microwaves or vacuum cleaners, there are plenty other fish in the sea. The simple truth is that if we don't buy (brand X), there's very little crossover--especially in the 1:20.3 world--that we can turn to instead. Those of us who have been in the hobby a long time have amassed sufficient collections to where we can easily say "I'm mad as #&!!, and I'm not going to take it anymore." We have the benefit of a stable full of already-tweaked locomotives to pull our existing roster of rolling stock. If Bachmann or Accucraft never came out with anything new ever again, I wouldn't feel the impact in the least (except that Accucraft still has my $300 deposit for EBT #12!). It's the newer folks in the hobby--those who are looking to expand their collections that really take the brunt of the QC issues. If they want trains to run, they have to buy what's available. If what's available is of quesitonable workmanship, that's what they have to deal with if they want those specific trains. The alternative is to compromise on what one wants, but how many are willing to make that compromise? Chances are good that those who care about the ".3" in "1:20.3" aren't the types to simply run just anything in an attempt to satisfy their wishes. 

Unfortunately, that puts the consumer in a very weak position, because our only recourse for rejecting subpar workmanship is to leave it on the shelf and "hope" the manufacturer gets the message. But what's the message? Is it "it's junk because it doesn't run," or "it's junk because it's an obscure prototype that no one wants." It takes people to buy the products, run them, and expose the weaknesses. Then, it's up to the media (mainstream and blogosphere) to publicize those deficiencies, free from interference. Without that feedback, there's no reason to believe the lack of public support has anything to do with running qualities. In that light, offering up criticism of a product isn't "cutting the branch," rather it's our sole instrument in trying to improve the status quo. It still takes the manufacturer to listen to--and accept as valid--our concerns. If they don't do that, then _they're_ the ones cutting the branch _they're_ sitting on. 

Later, 

K


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## david bunn (Jan 4, 2008)

This is a sticky subject isn't it with many facets.The way I look at it is that you get what you pay for.Just try building say a K27 with the level of detail of the Bach offering for the money charged.Custom made wheels by the time you have machined them would cost you around 20%of the ticket price alone and thats just a start.I would love some of the Accucraft locos but just cannot afford them,neither can I afford the machine tools to build a loco of that quality.I could do it by hand tools,except the wheels, but the build time would be lengthy to say the least having done it in 7mm scale I don't want to spend that amount of time on one model.
On the question of cost cutting, something I learned years ago in the auto industry is that a 50c saving on a component doesn't sound much and is a bit penny pinching,but on a production run of 1 million that is $500,000 on that one item alone.
The real bugbear for me is that products in the US imported from China are the same in $s as they are here in the UK in £s despite there being an exchange rate of around 1.5$s to the £.If the items were imported from the US I could understand it but in the case of Bachmann as far as I know they come direct from China.The result in real terms is that the loco which is say $500 in the US is half as much again here!
So what is the answer,better QC and components with the inevitable price rise, or simpler less detailed models of good quality for the same price?Who knows? personally I do not think things will change and as always the buyer has the choice of whether or not to buy.
Regards from a blisteringly hot morning in East Anglia
Bunny


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

The really sad thing about all of this is that you can build a quality product, assembled correctly every time (or at least almost every time!) for no more than the cost of a shoddy job.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, it's CLOSE, but not the SAME cost. The entire problem is the constant attempt to save money, thus the famous "quality fade".

It costs MORE to properly tighten a screw all the way down (at the right torque)
It costs MORE to put a wire through the hole in a terminal, crimp the wire and solder it.

It costs MORE to properly heat the parts and THEN apply the solder than to hit the connection with a soldering iron and solder simultaneously.
It costs MORE to allow the parts to cool properly before ejecting them from the mold.

And on and on and on.


So, when you have a culture where shaving a fraction of a cent here and there at the cost of a "little bit" of quality, add all of these up and what do you get?

Do you remember when all Aristo steamers had power pickups on the pilot and trailing truck? When tenders had more power pickups (the ones on the mallet are not even connected in many cases).


So, it DOES cost more in time (money) and materials (money) to do it right.

But, I maintain, the incremental cost to do this is SMALL, and everyone would be happy with a $10 increase in cost if all these things were no longer wrong with our locos!


Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/31/2009 12:02 PM
But, I maintain, the incremental cost to do this is SMALL, and everyone would be happy with a $10 increase in cost if all these things were no longer wrong with our locos!


Regards, Greg 

The big problem is, this was supposed to be done the first time, and the $10 included in the costings.
The "fade" issue is that the Chinese are now "cutting corners", and pocketing the $10 per locomotive, while we end up with loose screws, ambiguous gauge, piXX poor solder joints, etc, etc, etc.

Somebody, somewhere, figured the costings in to import and sell a properly functioning unit.

They got torpedoed.


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Robbie Hanson on 05/29/2009 9:25 PM
"Funnily enough, I've had no problems with my "Made in China" Accucraft cars."



I believe Accucraft owns and controls their own factory. I may be wrong, but that's what I have heard.

If everyone voted with their wallets and stopped buying Bachmann "large scale", it would not phase them at all. They'll just amp up the smaller stuff.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Why is it "a penny for your thoughts" but you "put your two cents in?" Somebody's makin' a penny.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, et al

"If they don't do that, then they're the ones cutting the branch they're sitting on." Reminds me of the cartoon of being out on the limb...when it is cut the wrong character falls.











Seems "we customers" are always the one's taking the "fall" in hopes that the manufacturer will live up to the hype allowing the child in each of us to open our wallets without thought to the consequences: poor QC.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/31/2009 1:04 PM
Why is it "a penny for your thoughts" but you "put your two cents in?" Somebody's makin' a penny.










And then they want a dollar in change.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I give up. I can't make the quote mechanism work, and after fifty tries I'm now too angry to respond intelligently. Great job.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Actually, Greg, I spent years in the quality business for AT&T. It is a fact that if you design quality into the process you can in fact manufacture product for LESS money than if you do not. I agree if you look at specific tasks and compare doing it carefully vs. doing it sloppily, it costs more to do it carefully. However, to truly improve quality, you need to study the entire process. I always give the nay sayers the benefit of the doubt by saying it doesn't cost any more to build a quality product, while in reality it costs some increment less. This is not just my idea, but an estabilished principle across the industry among quality professionals.

In support of what you said, Greg, if one merely applies more inspection at the end of the line, you will definitely increase the manufacturing cost to get a better quality product.

Ed


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I give up. I can't make the quote mechanism work, and after fifty tries I'm now too angry to respond intelligently. Great job.
If you're having trouble with the quote mechanism Matt, there's another way... 

1 - Highlight the line(s) in the post you wish to quote. 
2 - Click the "Quote" button on the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page. 
3 - Proceed to type. 

Another way is to highlight and copy to the clipboard the line(s) you wish to quote. Go to the "Add Reply" page, paste in the copied line(s), and enclose them within [*quote][*/quote] (without the asteisks) like the old days. You won't get the small text at the top of the quote "Posted by so and so on such and such" but other than that, it works just the same way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 05/31/2009 3:34 PM
Actually, Greg, I spent years in the quality business for AT&T. It is a fact that if you design quality into the process you can in fact manufacture product for LESS money than if you do not. I agree if you look at specific tasks and compare doing it carefully vs. doing it sloppily, it costs more to do it carefully. However, to truly improve quality, you need to study the entire process. I always give the nay sayers the benefit of the doubt by saying it doesn't cost any more to build a quality product, while in reality it costs some increment less. This is not just my idea, but an estabilished principle across the industry among quality professionals.

In support of what you said, Greg, if one merely applies more inspection at the end of the line, you will definitely increase the manufacturing cost to get a better quality product.

Ed

Ed, I took worked in a lot of areas that had to do with quality in companies you might have heard of: Denso/Nippondenso (ISO 9000), Hewlett Packard (ISO 9000), Uniden/Burroughs/Sperry (ISO 9000), and Uniden (ISO 9000) (also the largest manufacturer of cordless phones in the world).


I agree with what you said in sentences 1, 2,3,4.


Given a consistent level of quality, I agree with sentences 5 & 6. 


BUT! The point here is that the Chinese manufacturers are NOT trying to improve quality, they are trying to make more money, and "quality fade", which results from trying to cut costs is what is happening.


I think that if Aristo, for example, sent a REAL production/quality control engineer over there and watched the pre-production samples being made and also was ON the assembly line during production, a lot of things could be improved, although everyone around him would hate him.

The point again, they (the manufacturers) are NOT trying to improve quality, but to cut costs, so the motivation is different, and has different results.


Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

If you're having trouble with the quote mechanism Matt, there's another way... 

1 - Highlight the line(s) in the post you wish to quote. 
2 - Click the "Quote" button on the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page. 
3 - Proceed to type. 



Just testing 


gg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

and very cool....


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