# Wiring Installation - Below surface and ladder system



## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Track plans are in the semi-final stage (they are never really final) using DCC/Track Power. Live steam on the level main line. My plan has two main lines of 250' to 275' each. One main is a simple oval and the other is an oval with a secondary line of 200' to go "Over the mountain". Above-grade track will be on a ladder system using TRAX (instructions located elsewhere on this site). Straight line distance from shore power connection to farthest track 100'. Track distance 150'
Operations would be 3, possibly 4 engines, at any one time.
I'm looking at using #10 braided wire (Home Depot and Lowe's in my area don't carry that size solid core wire) for power to the tracks with a separate loop for any accessories. 
1. What is a good spacing for feeder lines to maintain the voltage required (24V DC ?? )
2. Separate blocks for each main, the secondary line, and small yard?
3. A good way to protect the wires from damage? (Conduit under areas were foot traffic may take place)
4. Mounting wires inside the ladder system?
5. Sticker Shock question. How many DCC booster boxes plus the controller?

These forums have been a great help and thanks to all who've answered other questions. I'm a visual learner so photographs are greatly appreciated.
Terra-forming (aka landscaping) of the site begins this week.

Alan W.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Say Allen - "The Fire Cop" - why not bury grey conduit for your main power feed to the layout, L's and HD both carry solid - single strand - # 10 wire, in your fav. colors... ie.- red / blk / white / green. 

I have dug over a 1000 feet of trenches here last week, 3 days on a rented Ditch Witch 1030, and a friend spent one day on a backhoe - now being filled with both water and power lines for many areas AND to the layout also !! 

Add power junction boxes at ground line, you can have access then to train power, model building lighting, & out door landscape lighting around the layout also! 

dig in a 3/4 or 1 inch pipe and pull 3-4 wires for your needs..add breakers at your house or garage for the lead outs....
And you might want a lead for power tools also, much closer to the work site. Out door plugs in weather proof boxes for the tools! maybe gfci breakers in that case - lightning and rain and all like we have here in the summer.

Stay cool Man, Dirk- DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OOOPS!! MY goof - Looks like MY 500 ft. rolls of #10 wire - ARE - of the stranded type!! 

Anyway - easier to pull - more flexible!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I used #10 stranded because it was easier to pull and flexible. Turns out not a good decision, where the wire is exposed for feeders, moisture gets in between the strands and eventually corrodes it away. Much easier to corrode the smaller strands than a big solid conductor. All my stranded will be replaced with solid. 

I live close to the coast, so I have a pretty much worst case environment, the dry desert may be fine. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

All exposed ends could be re-cut and soldered into a solid tip Greg! ... no replacement,...maybe... 

Thoughts, Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I was thinking of soldering the connections then using shrink-tubing to seal the joints. Track connections will have soldered on tips so the screws on the rail clamps can hold them in place . I think there is a liquid that can be painted on the connections to give it a good seal but I can't remember where I saw it. 

Greg, how far apart did you put your feeder wires, since you are the DCC Guru  

I'm trenching down 18" then using conduit over outdoor rated Romex to route house power out to the site. Coming off a 20 amp breaker so power tools shouldn't be a problem and I can put in several sets of outdoor rated plugs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First, you cannot stop moisture from getting inside the jacket... you would have to solder the wires into a solid mass inside the jacket a bit, and then coat where they come out of the jacket with liquid rubber. 

I'd use liquid rubber over the heat shrink, better sealing... you can get the brush on stuff at home depot, easier to control than the spray on stuff. 

My feeders are every 30 feet or so, but I run trains up to 10 amps. SS track with SS Split Jaw clamps. 

I have 3/4" conduit and there was room to pull several sets of feeders (home run for each set) and some pneumatic tubing. The 110v was already in place with the original landscaping in several areas outside. 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Allen, I do not think you need both "Romex" and conduit. Should be more costly and using conduit allows the use of plain rated single runs of wires. Like a 220 volt circuit;, run a ground, neutral, and 2 hot lines, thru 2 - 20 amp leads and have more options while only adding one more wire to the run. 

Heat shrink is also pre-made with a sealer inside that melts and seals at the same time. One step this way! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

Posted By fyrekop on 09 Jul 2012 10:20 AM 
3. A good way to protect the wires from damage? (Conduit under areas were foot traffic may take place)


On my garden layout I have installed 1.5" rigid conduit for the main trunks to allow for multiple thick cables to be pulled through easily. The main trunks run in a straight line and where the path bends I have installed inspection pits (look in the irrigation section of your local hardware for these, mine cost $4 each including the lid). The pits also serve as connection points to join the track connectors/accessories to the cabling in the conduit. I used 1/2" flexible conduit for these smaller connections. 
Inside the conduit I have used heavy duty figure 8 speaker cable (0.2mmx79) and screw type terminal blocks which are then bagged and taped off to protect from moisture though I'm thinking I'll probably need to use some plastic-safe grease or something to really seal it off. Where the cable exits the service pit and is exposed to the elements I have used UV protected garden light cable.

*Tip:* use talculm powder to make pulling cables even easier and keep ants out as they hate the stuff

*Another Tip:* run nylon rope through your conduit when you lay it so you can use it to pull the cables through and leave it there when you're done as you will most likely need it again sometime in the future

Here's a pic of one of the pits and some of the flexible conduit:


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And judging by the yard ( layout ) and garage location, it looks like you may have a run of about 120 - 150 feet - roughly, depending on your mileage!! 

A fish tape can pull this easily... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a ladder system (although it is in the process of being ripped up and rebuilt) and have used landscape lighting cable to run all my power, both to track and to lighting on the layout. I will be rerunning the track power as I have found that I don't have enough feeders in place. Mine will end up being about 40 to 50 feet apart all around the layout and will be home run. The cable is intended to be just placed on or in the ground and covered with mulch or some other ground cover so mine is not in conduit of any kind. Connections are wire eye hooked to split jaw connectors with no connections between track and power source.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

Posted By sbaxters4 on 09 Jul 2012 08:10 PM 
The cable is intended to be just placed on or in the ground and covered with mulch or some other ground cover so mine is not in conduit of any kind. 
Which reminds me: where the cables run outside of conduits I'll be aiming to have them run parallel with the track and under the track ballast where possible. The idea is to keep the cables away from areas that may be dug up either for planting or for future expansion.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, I was pretty busy when I first answered...

Track plans are in the semi-final stage (they are never really final) using DCC/Track Power. Live steam on the level main line. My plan has two main lines of 250' to 275' each. One main is a simple oval and the other is an oval with a secondary line of 200' to go "Over the mountain". Above-grade track will be on a ladder system using TRAX (instructions located elsewhere on this site). Straight line distance from shore power connection to farthest track 100'. Track distance 150'
Operations would be 3, possibly 4 engines, at any one time.
I'm looking at using #10 braided wire (Home Depot and Lowe's in my area don't carry that size solid core wire) for power to the tracks with a separate loop for any accessories. 
>>> yes they do carry solid, you can get the #10 with the thin insulation, more wire in less space and solid may be better for you from my previous post.

1. What is a good spacing for feeder lines to maintain the voltage required (24V DC ?? )
>>>> 30-40 feet

2. Separate blocks for each main, the secondary line, and small yard?'
>>> perfect

3. A good way to protect the wires from damage? (Conduit under areas were foot traffic may take place)
>>> conduit is great, allows using less expensive wire with thinner insulation which also allows more wire in the conduit

4. Mounting wires inside the ladder system?
>>> conduit is good

5. Sticker Shock question. How many DCC booster boxes plus the controller?
>>> start with 2, hook the yard to one of the loops... you can add a third later if you keep a ton of locos in the yard and running
(NCE 10 amp boosters are cheap)

Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Alan 

If you use conduit, I suggest you not run both low voltage [24v] and house power[120 v] in the same conduit. I did not check the NEC, but most local electrical codes forbid it. I would run your low voltage in a conduit and use direct burial Romex for your 120v circuit. The conduit and Romex can be in the same trench together. Do not forget to use GFI outlets or a GFI breakhttp://www.mylargescale.com/desktopmodules/activeforums/themes/MLS/save32.pnger. Also if you use a 20 amp breaker, your outlets should be rated for 20 A [although many folks fail to do this].


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Dirk You had me a bit confused about distance from garage until I remembered you used Google Earth to check out my back yard  There's a 50 amp box located next to the storage shed that I'll be pulling from rather than run it from the garage. Still about the same distance. 
Thanks to Dr Rivet for reminding me about 20 A GFI outlets. Back to H.D. to swap out 15A GFI for 20A GFI's


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