# LGB Moguls and R1 curves



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Ok, I know they bind, espicaly the 2018d that lacks the extra play and springing on the center driver. I have one of those engines now. I have seen comments from doom and gloom if you run them on R1 curves regularly that it will destroy the idler gears ect. I cannot get away from R1, the indoor loop is built for R1 only and the outdoor layout being only 12" by 15" with a tight curve around a tree is pretty much locked into being R1 curved. I might be able to go R2 at one end but the others would have to remain the tighter radius. Being its a small layout, I only pull 4-5 cars and a bobber caboose. Many times its not even that many. All cars have LGB metal wheel sets and are 4 axle cars other than the caboose. I also grease the inside rail on my outdoor layout as it has an "S" curve in it. While it can cause her to slip a bit, it does seem to help with the binding at slower speeds. That being said, am I better off to go back to Euro and the 2085d Mallet, or go ahead and get this second Mogul(2019s) that I have in layaway at the local shop? I have no problem replacing idler gears if they go, I have a spare set on hand just in case. Just weighing my options as I am torn between the 2019s and getting another 2085d as I miss the one I used to have. Only thing keeping me on the Mogul route is that all but one of my rolling stock is USA prototype. Mikie


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Wouldn't you eventually rub the plating off the wheels too if it binds some degree through the corners?
If you do decide to run the mogul. Make sure you run it equally in the opposite direction otherwise any wear will be even more premature and all on the same side.
Just Americanize the Euro mallet with a new cab. I'm sure it can be done in a non destructive way so the original can be put as it was later if need be. 

Andrew


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I like the Euro Mallet just the way it is Garrett, thats the problem. I dont want to change it. I have run the daylights out of a 2119d bumblebee mogul years ago and never wore the plating off the drivers. I just dont like putting stress on engines if I can avoid it by buying something different. And I have no plans to go back to Stainz or one that is Americanized either. Mike


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike

There MAY be a fundamental difference between your 2018 and the 2019. I bought one of the original 2018 engines. I had nothing but problems on R1 curves. A machinist friend helped me turn the middle driver into blind drivers. This helped, but not enough. About the time the engine gave up the ghost. I heard or read that LGB had reenginered the drive block. As I recall this was before the introduction of other models in the series, such as 2019. I sent my 2018 to LGB America in San Diego and they replaced the motor and drive assembly. This helped, but there were still problems on tight radius curves.

Your 2018 may have the old assembly and the 2019 will have the newer design. I think that the difference between the two engines is that there is more lateral movement in the newer design. Compare the lateral movement in the drivers to see if there is a difference. 

In the long run neither mogul is happy on R1 curves. The later version will run better, but still have problems.

My recommendation would be to get an "Americanized" Stanz with motorized tender. It will give better long term performance on R1 layouts.

Chuck

PS. Andrew is correct. Reversing the direction of the locomotive will double the life.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I wonder if my chassis was updated at some point, It doesnt have the sprung driver, but doesnt balk any worse in the curve than my 2119d did, unless the curve has a kink at a joint. Nor does it have the pilot truck derailing issue common to the very first batch of the 2018's. I believe at some point in early production is when the first update to the chassis happened to deal with the R1 bind and pilot truck derailing issues. I do watch the engine for any undo wear, so for nothing visable. I think it would be more dangerous to the gearing if I was pulling much longer trains that taxed the gear train even more. I will probably stick with my Mogul and purchase the second one, being able to switch off which one I use was one reason to get a second one. Just wish I had the orignal boxes for them, even if I dont collect its nice to have them. Mikie


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the differences in all LGB moguls is the rear axle lateral movement.
The sound sensor limits the rear axle movement. This makes a difference on tight curves.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Dan I thought most of the lateral movement was in the center axle to allow it to get thru the curves easier? I will know soon enough, he is letting me bring it home after April 1st to see how it handles my layout before I lay out the full amount. If it doesn't like it, I will take it back and get something else. About the only Americanized Stainz I like is the maroon one with a tender, and its low on the "want" list.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, the non sound rear axle has the same lateral movement as the front axle.
The rear axle on sound moguls has hardly any lateral movement.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Got ya Dan, I will just see how it does when I bring it home next month to test it on my 2 layouts. Thanks. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I may be mistaken (it won't be the first time) but I seem to recall in old LGB Telegrams that years ago LGB redesigned the 2018d drive unit to get it to work better with R1 curves. I too have a lot of R1 & R2 curves and R1 turnouts in the curves. Some Moguls (including 2018d's) seem to handle them better than others.

Part of the problem seems to come up when backing into siding with 6 coaches or 8 freight cars & caboose.

I don't have any solutions but in my case I don't run them individually often enough for the occasional derailments to keep them from being my favorite LGB locos.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I do love them as well Jerry, and backing long trains thru tight radius turnouts and curves is dangerous in any scale! Even with body mounted couplers in the smaller scales, derailments happen. I think my 2018d was upgraded by LBGofAmerican at one time as it handles the R1 curves as well as my 2119d I used to have. I am watching for 2028d to purchase as I gave my 21119d up a couple years ago when money was tight. Hoping I can find one cheap, like well used but complete otherwise. I know my 2018d gets well used, put 4 hours on it last Sunday. I am still on the fence whether to go Austrian or USA Wild West on the outdoor layout. RIght now I have trains for both with an 2095 diesel, 2 3062 coaches and a 4062 high side OBB gondola. The 2018d pulls my wife's 2 USA brand reefers. I would stay with the DSP&PRR theme if I went wild west/gold rush theme. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Mike,

You are right about backing long trains into sidings but unfortunately I have to do it whenever I park the trains after running them. Backing Heavyweights into sidings is even more of a problem but it is better than having to put them on the track one at a time when running trains.

That is part of the reason I switched to running MTS - I can be at the turnouts and turn power on or off whenever something derails.

Usually the LGB Moguls can back 6 LGB passenger coaches or 8 LGB freight cars and a caboose through R1 turnouts and R1 curves into sidings without any problems. My main problem with the Moguls is when the turnouts into the sidings are directly following an R1 curve. I think part of my problem is that a lot of the freight cars have heavy metal wheels which increases the resistance the Moguls are backing into.

As long as we are having fun its all OK.

Jerry


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mike/Jerry,

I bought my 2018D back in January 1986......that's what got me into this hobby. I have always loved this little locomotive even down to the gaudy green and red paint scheme. But that's what gives it "character". Mine is almost as new as the day I bought it....might have as much as five hours on it. Pretty much mint condition. I pull three LGB D&RGW and one combine (it is my "Christmas" train around the tree) . I learned early on about running the largest radii I could get and bought LGB 1600 curved track at the start. Also use the 1600 switches. Backing through ANY switch is always a tricky move. We even have trouble with backing long trains through #8 switches at Los Angeles Live Steamers and the 7-1/2 inch gauge track.

Good to see you posting here again Jerry.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Gary Armitstead said:


> Good to see you posting here again Jerry.


Hi Gary, 

I've been away from trains, the internet, emails, and forums for the past few years and am just starting to get back into it. Fortunately the trains have been waiting patiently for me (with a bit of accumulated dust) and I am just getting back into it.

If anyone has tried to contact me and did not get a response I apologize.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

glad to see your back Jerry! I love my moguls, but love how my Austrian 2095 cruises around my R1 curves and "s" curve like its not there. While every mogul I have owned will slow down thru the curves. I suspect I will be able to put onboard battery/RC in the diesel easier as well. Just need to come up with a battery and charger now. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

No question. Diesels are easier to work on and many (like some USAT as well as LGB) handle sharp curves better. Where I have problems are with round nose diesels (like F7A's and F3A's) where the nose (A units) cannot handle the same curves as the rear (or B) unit.

I can't say anything about larger LGB European units as I've never owned any. My small LGB diesels tend to have little traction. I've always wanted LGB to come out with a good switcher like USAT's NW-2 (which unfortunately lacks traction tires and is not designed for MUing.

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I have found the best LGB pulling small diesel is the original 2063 diesel.
This engine does have an issue that I fixed, the traction tire is far from the shoe giving lousy pickup at plastic rails in switches and crossovers. I flipped the axles end to end and it runs and pulls great. Newer versions are lighter due to no lead weights and do not pull as well.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I dont think my 2095 does to bad pulling, its a very very early version, red wheel faces, no power port to hook up passenger car lighting ect. I am hesitant to put anymore weight as to increase wear in the trucks. Now if LGB had put bearings on the axles, I would fill that huge open body with ballest and it would pull the house down. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, I have found the best LGB pulling small diesel is the original 2063 diesel.
> This engine does have an issue that I fixed, the traction tire is far from the shoe giving lousy pickup at plastic rails in switches and crossovers. I flipped the axles end to end and it runs and pulls great. Newer versions are lighter due to no lead weights and do not pull as well.


Hi Dan,

You have probably seen my comments elsewhere where I MUed the 2063 with a 2062 (back to back) and together they are pulling either of the track cleaning cars. Between them I now have a knuckle coupler at one end and a hook and loop coupler on the other end. 

I've had these for some time and I'm pretty sure they have the lead weights in them.

Thanks for giving me the idea of using them.

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

simply to answer the main question, it sound that your layout and its constraints will not be mogul friendly, ever.-but definitely euro train friendly.

I have the original 2018 (identified by the single gold piece boiler handrails-these don't have a brass rod going through stanchion holders)

these mechansims imho have the least amount of tolerance for R1

having had an indoor fun track for a while, R1, simply, the moguls all bind but the original version is the least tolerant.

that being said, it will go round, and, it will slow in the curve. I had some success using .....yes.....a few drops of oil on the rails, binding indeed was reduced, as was....pulling power, and, the need to clean the rails at least weekly-in retrospect, I would suggest instead, powdered graphite, as it is messy, but less so when it comes to building up the black track brass oxide, dust, etc.

perhaps coincidently, but this is the only mogul in which I have worn the drivers to the brass-it is also the one with most miles, but also subjected , I think, to R1 most often. 

there is no solution or happy harmony imho with moguls and the R1. lube as I have suggested may be the best bet.

my other moguls, all later, don't particularly like R1 , as others have noted.

FWIW R2s are fine, no binding at all, but I understand this isn't an option.

one might consider, a Forney instead, which works well on R1. I would suggest the non leading truck version, not that it wont work, but simply due to the amount of travel sideways, which looks extreme, even to my tolerant eye. These are very nice locos, even the late ones. Ditto the 2063 series.

or the Uintah, or , 2085, both of which handle R1 just fine. I agree with Mike too, that the 2085 is too nice to mod-

I agree too with chuck n about the 2017 with motorized tender-simply made for your layout.
or, if you prefer, double headed porters?

btw, the big White Pass diesel also handles R1 beautifully.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I had a White Pass, and yes they do snake thru R1 with ease, but it looked way to massive and out of place on my layout. With the curves, all the exhisting European theme items already in place(other than the covered bridge), we are sticking to the Austrian theme. I picked up an distant signal from LGB out of a pile of used stuff at the G gauge shop on Saturday last. When a good used home signal shows up, I will grab one of those. The short 2095 snakes thru the R1 curves with ease and doesn't look totaly odd doing it, where as the White Pass did. I will be trading in my 2018d(later run with the gold wire boiler handrails) to the shop on more Euro stuff. Was thinking about another 3062 passenger coach and some ball bearing wheelsets to replace the carbon brushes. Need to reduce some of the drag as with 2 of the 3062's, a 4062 gondola and my Buffalo, NY LGB Club Convention car on the rear, the 2095 slips a bit thru the S curve. Everything has LGB metal wheels, but the coaches have high drag brush pickups for thier lights. Mike


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike you could reduce the drag if you kept the carbon brushes on one car and removed them from the other cars. You could then connect the brushless cars to the power car with wires and plugs. This could save the expense of BB wheels with power contacts.

Or, depending on your engine it might be possible to light the coaches from the power ports in the back of the engine, getting rid of the brushes entirely.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> I have the original 2018 (identified by the single gold piece boiler handrails-these don't have a brass rod going through stanchion holders)
> 
> one might consider, a Forney instead, which works well on R1. I would suggest the non leading truck version,


Hi Steve,

That's good to know about the the single gold piece boiler handrails. I did not know that and it made me go check.

Regarding the Forneys, there are a few issues I have run into:

1. The leading truck on the Forneys is not spring loaded (unlike the Moguls). A Mogul truck will push through a turnout but the Forney truck simply lays on the rails and will derail on a turnout not thrown correctly.

2. Moguls have twelve (12) track contacts (6 drivers, 2 shoes and 4 tender wheels with track contacts). Forneys only have eight (8) track contacts (4 drivers, 2 shoes and only 2 tender wheels with track contacts). That extra 50% track contacts is especially important on dirty track and when going though turnouts. I usually put LGB Ball Bearing wheels in a Forney tender or in a trailing boxcar to improve track contact.

3. Mogul tenders have a lot of room for sound units while Forneys are really challenging (to me anyway) to put sound units (or decoders) into. I think it is the LGB 41352 boards that I ended up putting in the Forneys.

On the other hand I've been told but never tested that Forneys have more pulling power than a Mogul. It actually makes sense to me in that with a floating and unpowered center driver, the Mogul probably has less weight per axle actually on the powered drivers.

I have no doubt the Forneys can handle sharper curves than the Moguls and would probably make better switchers. I have a few of the Massoth Automatic Uncouplers that I hope to someday put on the back of a Mogul tender or perhaps on the back of a Forney if I ever get around to it.

I may not be 100% correct on the above as there have been many variations of LGB Moguls and Forneys. I'm not actually sure what a 2-4-4T is anyway. It seems it might be a Columbia or something else. 

Jerry


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

My 2095 diesel is the very first version('73-'74) that lacks any power ports. I thought about linking the coaches but I dont care for the cables between the coaches and having to deal with them every time I carry out my trains to to run them. Mike


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, the oil mogul does not have tender power pickups. I added one axle for power pickup on my 2-4-0 tenders which have the same trucks. Big difference!!
Best pulling mogul was the original version that had 2 traction tires, (2028??) and lead weights.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Jerry you are correct about your Forney points. BTW nice to hear from you!!!

The Forney lead truck is indeed "limp", with only a down pressure spring, no sideways/centering correction spring. So, on sprung points, it may or may not move the blade and may ride up and derail. OTOH< I have a couple of these and have not found them to be troublesome for the vast part. The overhang, however, is "drastic".

Yes there are fewer Forney electrical contacts, but, I have found no noticeable difference in overall reliability compared to a mogul regarding pick up ,even on somewhat dirty track. OTOH, I have become accustomed to cleaning my track almost evey time I run, and no less that every third successive day. Everything runs smoothly, slowly, and without mirco arching as a result. Just me, but I have found this to make my running a happy time. I tend to run locos very slowly, so stalling and jerkiness are particularly irksome to me.

I haven't installed sound in a forney, but have 2 sound forneys, and they are nice, but have limited sounds compared to the modern shoveling feature. I can say that one might be able to shove the LGB sound module into the bunker-haven't trued it, but have had them apart and theres a decent amount of room there as I recall.

I also haven't tried a pulling contestbetween foreny and mogul, as I tend to run short trains, 2-5 cars max, with these 'diminutive' forneys and moguls, as was the case in real operations. from casual observation over the years, I can say I have had more driver spin with moguls than with forneys, but little overall. I have come to shun heavy trains, mostly to save on wear, as well as better overall tracking and operations.

FWIW a 2-4-2 would be a Columbia type, as a tender loco,

I think its simply a 2-4-4t with no Whyte classification type, especially as a 'tank' ("t" suffix ) type.

A final note to any who have later forneys from china. I found that the tender axel contact plunger brushes, may need help. Mine (3) each had the brushes hang up against a tiny 'lip' on the inside edge of the brush cylinder. The cure is to use a tiny, semi round or round jewelers file and go around the entire inside lip and smooth the imperfections of the brush casing cylinder-simply remove the axel, and file the edges.
There is enough room against the spring and brush to allow a decent room for file stroke. Use a very fine smoothing file.

This is important to check, visually because on 'good track', ie clean, the other picks ups do fine and one may not notice the issue. Its very subtle. You really have to look to see if the brush is hitting the back of that tender axel wheel.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, the oil mogul does not have tender power pickups. I added one axle for power pickup on my 2-4-0 tenders which have the same trucks. Big difference!!
> Best pulling mogul was the original version that had 2 traction tires, (2028??) and lead weights.


Hi Dan,

I don't have much experience with Forneys. Mine are all fairly recent coal burners (26251 Santa Fe, 25251 Rio Grande & 20251.1 PRR). As I recall the Santa Fe's and PRR's have a single axle pickup in the tender and the Rio Grande (I think) has double pickups in the tender but I don't recall if it came that way or if I added a pickup to it.

My track is pretty "dirty" as it has been a few years since I last cleaned most of it and there are a lot of sidings & turnouts that have only ever been cleaned when I've had a problem with them (hardly ever).

My experience is not fair to the Forneys because I prefer adding electrical pickups to cleaning track and I kind of like the challenge of very infrequent tarnished track issues which are to be expected in a crawl space environment. I usually send a "pusher" loco to get a stalled loco moving again and then send an LGB Track Cleaning Loco to clean the problematic track, turnout or siding.

I had forgotten that some Moguls may have double traction tires. I have traced a few derailments recently to broken traction tires falling in turnouts etc. so I probably need to start checking traction tires.

It occurred to me that perhaps I need to find a way to have an overhead inspection track so I could somehow see the underside of a loco as it passes over but I don't know how I could do it when the brass track would block any view of a loco above on it.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> Jerry you are correct about your Forney points. BTW nice to hear from you!!!
> 
> I have become accustomed to cleaning my track almost evey time I run, and no less that every third successive day.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

Its nice to hear from you too.

Our running styles could hardly be much more different which is a tribute to LGB as it works for both of us.

I had tried putting various LGB sound cards into the Forneys and (as I recall) it was only the 41352 card that was small enough to fit into the Forney tender. I did modify them so I could run them on MTS.

My Forneys are probably all Chinese made so I appreciate your comments about them.

Thanks,

Jerry


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