# Usa trains big boy #4004



## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Hey Guys, been a while since my first post. Now i have gotten my bigboy today and i put it on my LGB Track and got it running with sound  A few hours later i ran it again but the sound suddenly stops, now i read you need to charge the train for a min. of 20 minutes and max 2 hours. I have no clue how to charge this thing at all?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There might be a charging jack, did you get the instruction book?

Hmmm... I got the "manual" and I don't see a charging jack.

There was supposed to be a Phoenix Sound manual included also, although I don't have a copy.

There's often a battery inside, and running the loco is supposed to charge the battery... I think you can also put the loco on the rails, turn the motor switch off and charge it that way.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

A Phoenix PB-11 should run on track power with a low battery. The charged battery will continue the sound after stopping and start it up at a low track voltage.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, do you know that USAT used a PB-11? Just curious.

Greg


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

So i bascily put all settings on the locomotive on OFF and then put my LGB trafo on the max amount of speed (it wont move) and it should charge the locomotive if i keep it like that for 30minutes to an hour?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Mike, do you know that USAT used a PB-11? Just curious.
> 
> Greg


I assume that, as it is the current model that has a battery,and is for DC or DCC.


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Treeman said:


> I assume that, as it is the current model that has a battery,and is for DC or DCC.


Could we stick with my big boy subject guys? haha.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> So i bascily put all settings on the locomotive on OFF and then put my LGB trafo on the max amount of speed (it wont move) and it should charge the locomotive if i keep it like that for 30minutes to an hour?


You should get sound if the battery is dead or even disconnected. But yes, if you can turn off the smoke and motors the battery should charge with DC applied.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> Could we stick with my big boy subject guys? haha.


This applies to what I believe is installed in your BB.


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Treeman said:


> You should get sound if the battery is dead or even disconnected. But yes, if you can turn off the smoke and motors the battery should charge with DC applied.


Mind telling me where the battery is located? Is it in the tender or the locomotive.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I would guess that to complete sound system is in the tender. Is the speaker in there?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The sound board is under the boiler.. just forward of the cab...
There are 4 large screws .. - under the lids - of the steam domes.. these open.. remove the screws. Lift and flip the boiler up and over onto a towel..wires will still be attached..

You'll see the miracles of the insides of a BIG BOY!

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

There are 2 - 2" speakers located under the boiler also... up near the smoke stack.

D


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Also, i have read here a comment about: https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=299995.0

I'd suggest finding a straight DC supply and trying it on that. An LGB start-set controller should at least move it I'd have thought, although would probably eventually overload.

I am using a start set controller, what does he mean by overload??? <-- Important.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Starter set controllers are capable of supplying about 1 amp of power, give or take a little. Most of our engines have motors that draw about one amp. More motors per engine, more amps. Any sound, smoke, lights, sharp curves and inclines, will require more power and blow the circuit breaker in thE controller. Your engine has two motors, sound, and lights. Your power supply cannot run that engine. You need a power supply that can handle at least 5 amps. If you are pulling any cars, especially cars with lights, you will need a 10 amp controller at a minimum.

I have a USAT passenger train that pulls 7 amps. Two Diesel engines (2 motors each, 4 amps) and 6 lighted passenger cars (0.5 amps per car).

Chuck

Try a small engine, 1 motor, on your track and see it you still have a working controller.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Overload!
Over load can be a mis-matched power supply.. not able to provide enough amps supply to meet the power needs of the motors in a loco.. usually the power supply will shut down - stop supplying power...

Overload could happen to the loco, from climbing steep grades..or pulling too many cars!
To prevent Big Boy overload... do not pull more than 150 cars!

;-)


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Thanks for the respond guys, any clue on how to fix the crappy customs handling of my wooden box?
Its kind of destroyed on one side of the locomotive box. Tender box is fine.


































People at the dumbass customs made a scratch guarantee without telling me.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

For what it is worth, my USAT Big Boy is an older #4000 (also with Phoenix sound). It runs back & forth (very slowly) a few times a month on a wall mounted 11 foot track and has never been off that track (too darn heavy).

If several months have gone by without running the Big Boy the battery may be too low to run the sound system but after a couple of times back-and-forth the sound system is running again just fine even at very slow speeds.

I don't think there is a charging jack or that you need a charger but that's an unqualified opinion. I don't know about amps needed. All that is on the track is the Big Boy and a USAT caboose. I run it with an Aristocraft 15 amp power supply but just a little old Aristocraft 5 amp throttle.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

In the big boy it is Phoenix sound and the jack is for programming the Phoenix sound unit not for charging the battery. If power is applied to this jack, it would be destructive to the sound unit.
All electronics are in the engine, battery and phoenix sound are located in the boiler near the cab end.
To charge the battery, shut off the motor and just let this engine sit on the track with power set to half throttle.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

While I do not have a Big Boy, USAT or anybody elses, I do have a USAT GG1. It probably has similar power requirement as the BB. It has: sound, lights, two motors and is quite heavy.

I just measured its power needs on my not so level layout. It drew 0.5 amps on the down hill part, and up to 2 amps on the grade (a short segment of 3-4%).

I am surprised that the load is that low. This was done without any cars. Later today I'll try it with some freight cars.

It is possible that with level track,wide curves and a short train, a robust starter set power supply might be able to handle it. I have heard, that the early, Made in Germany, LGB starter set power supplies could handle a little over 1 amp, while the more recent, made in China, can't. I have no first hand knowledge of this because I don't have any LGB starter set power supplies, old or new.

Chuck


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Wood glue and clamps to repair the box, should come out pretty good.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> Also, i have read here a comment about: https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=299995.0
> 
> I'd suggest finding a straight DC supply and trying it on that. An LGB start-set controller should at least move it I'd have thought, although would probably eventually overload.
> 
> I am using a start set controller, what does he mean by overload??? <-- Important.


For what it is worth, my older #4000 draws 2 amps minimum to move just the Big Boy and the USAT lighted Center Cupola caboose on perfectly straight track. This is according to the ammeter on the Aristo-Craft Everest 15 amp power supply.

An LGB 50081 Starter Set power supply is marked 1 amp. A LGB 50030/110 Starter Set power supply is marked DC 0-21 VDC 7VA and 16 VAC 7 VA for accessories, 14 VA total.

That leaves 1/3 amp for trains and 1/3 amp for accessories. 

I would not think about trying to use an LGB 50030 power supply with your Big Boy.

It is possible you might be able to charge your sound system battery with an LGB 50081/55080 if everything (especially motors) was turned off...

but my question is...

Why even consider risking your very expensive Big Boy with anything that is unable to power it even at slow speeds?

Your photos show the considerable damage just from Customs. Are you going to ship your Big Boy to the USA if you somehow damage the electronics?

Apparently you are in "Location: Netherlands" I believe that means you have 220 volts (we have 120 - approximately). You also have 50 Hz/Cycles (we have 60 Hz/Cycles). Rather than a LGB 50081 120 DC power pack you probably have an LGB 50080 230 volt power pack but both have a 1 amp max output (to low to drive your Big Boy 2 feet).

If I carried my Big Boy downstairs and put 12 USAT (lighted) aluminum passenger coaches behind it I would probably not try to run it with less than a 10 - 15 amp power supply (perhaps less if all the lights were turned off - but I like having all the lights turned on for running in the dark).

Some guys (Marty) even run their Big Boys with battery power so I am not trying to tell you what to do - just some things you might want to consider.

I don't even know if you could harm your Big Boy or the Phoenix sound system with too little power. If it was me I would probably not worry about what the instruction book might or might not say (there are several generations of USAT Big Boys).

http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainsbigboy.html

http://www.usatrains.com/pdf/bigboy.pdf

http://www.usatrains.com/pdf/bigboymanual.pdf

*please include $300.00 U.S. currency to cover return postage.
*

I would suggest that you call USA Trains and ask them about the minimum power supply you should be using. They have always been very helpful whenever I've called them.


USA Trains
P.O. Box 100, Malden, MA 02148
Phone: (781) 322-6084
Fax: (781) 321-6459

Good luck. You have a GREAT locomotive.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If it's not used frequently, a super cap would be a good alternative to the battery.

Greg


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Thanks for the info Jerry, so you suggest i should get a Aristo-Craft Everest 15 amp power supply? 

( I will have to buy one of these amp power supplies anyway eventually.. )

If so do you happen to know where i can get these for a good price?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Everest power supplies had some flaws, I beta tested them, and they failed in my application (over sensitive circuit breaker).

I think if you search the forum you will find some posts on the big boy and actual current draw under load... I thought it was around 5 amps with sound, smoke and a reasonable load.

Greg


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

My bigboy in all its glory: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXB...cpZD1x-KIbJe2w


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> Thanks for the info Jerry, so you suggest i should get a Aristo-Craft Everest 15 amp power supply?
> 
> ( I will have to buy one of these amp power supplies anyway eventually.. )
> 
> ...


BEAUTIFUL VIDEO!

Actually I would not recommend the Aristo 15 amp Everest Power Supply. Originally I bought six of them but had a 50% failure rate. When Aristo went out of business I'd had 3 replaced under warranty and I bought a couple more for spares. I am sure that if Aristocraft had stayed in business they would have repaired and/or replaced all of them with perfectly good ones. At this point I have not taken the time to test any of my remaining Everests but I would not feel comfortable selling them to anyone and I could not in good conscience recommend them. I am NOT saying they are bad - just that they have not proven to be satisfactory to me. As far as I know replacing the circuit breaker with a 15 amp quick blow fuse would make them quite useful. 

As far as I know the Aristocraft Elites were pretty trouble-free and I've had no problems with them. I still use the Everests along with the Aristo 15 amp throttles (no problems with the throttles).

I don't know what is available in the Netherlands but power supplies are usually heavy (expensive) to ship and even the best sometimes fail.

Someone like Dan Pierce or SD90WLMT could probably give better advice than me but don't talk to NTCGRR (Marty). That crazy guy will probably try to talk you into converting it to battery power! 

email me if you like or I could phone you but the Big Boy is out of my league. I will never have the guts to carry it downstairs and put it on the layout. I'm just a Big Boy Hostler.

Jerry


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Haha wel yea, the shipping costs are indeed expensive, i will most likely have to buy something from LGB since they sell in europe alot, i can ship stuff from the UK cheap also.

Do you have any prefered 15amp power suplies for my big boy where i should get them, also can this 15amp run the big boy and a few other locomotives from bachmann on the track at the same time?

Also, LGB is verry expensive when it comes down to buying track, what do you prefer i should buy?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Why don't you buy an inexpensive meter and measure the amps your loco is pulling?

You may be surprised. If nothing else you can stop guessing and know what is needed.

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Using meters in a loco is the smartest move....
I have done this.. on-board meters.. both V. & A. versions..
They give great read outs in decimals.. read in hundreths of a value..
.. thats two places on the small side of the point!!

These have proven invaluable to me, especially as I run "battery power"...

Since when is My buddy Marty KraZy!!!!!?

;-) DMS Ry....


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I strongly agree with Greg and Dirk. A meter is a very handy piece of equipment if you get a multi-meter, if there isn't a fuse in the amp setting, get a 10 amp fuse and put it in the line you use for measuring current. My meter isn't fused for current, so I have a separate amp meter.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

SD90WLMT said:


> These have proven invaluable to me, especially as I run "battery power"...
> 
> Since when is My buddy Marty KraZy!!!!!?
> 
> ;-) DMS Ry....


OK I did know you too had been drawn to the Dark Side. 

I just want to see Marty running his Big Boy with a dozen lighted streamliners *at night* and see just how long is batteries last!!! 

Bubba may have sold me on the USAT Hudson but you ain't ever gonna see it or the Big Boy running on battery power HERE!!! 

TRACK POWER FOREVER!!! 

Oops! I think I am about to buy a battery powered LGB Forney. Maybe I'll finally get to use the door prize battery pack I won at Marty's years ago.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> Haha wel yea, the shipping costs are indeed expensive, i will most likely have to buy something from LGB since they sell in europe alot, i can ship stuff from the UK cheap also.
> 
> Do you have any prefered 15amp power suplies for my big boy where i should get them, also can this 15amp run the big boy and a few other locomotives from bachmann on the track at the same time?
> 
> Also, LGB is verry expensive when it comes down to buying track, what do you prefer i should buy?


Hi Dean,

I have looked over your posts and came to the conclusion that I really don't know enough about you to have an appreciation of what you're looking for and where you are heading.

You have inexpensive 10 Wheelers - White Pass with LGB coaches, James (?) LGB starter set, and now a quite expensive Big Boy but no reference that I can see to track power or MTS or DCC or battery power or anything else. This is not a criticism of any sort. I just have no idea how to help you get where you are trying to go when I don't know where you are trying to go.

The Bachmann 10 Wheeler would suggest one financial approach to the hobby but a USAT Big Boy would suggest a very different approach to the hobby.

Everything but the Big Boy can run on the sharpest curves which are not uncommon in Europe.

The Big Boy changes everything both in terms of her diameter requirements and weight requirements.

Your weather would suggest stainless steel track rather than brass track but in Europe you have even more options.

Your Big Boy is DCC capable so I would think that before you buy a power supply you first need to decide whether you have an interest in DCC or not (I am not suggesting or recommending DCC).

As you know England is not far away. I have only been to the Netherlands/Amsterdam once but I would be surprised if there are not any garden railroads fairly close to you and England is not far from the Netherlands. There are several people here on MLS from the UK. Heck, Germany is not that far away for you.

Perhaps it is too soon for you to be deciding on how to power your Big Boy. I don't know.

I and others would be happy to talk with you. Don't be in too big a hurry to buy power supplies until you know if you will be staying with track power. It is not uncommon for people to buy too small a power supply only to later buy a bigger one. My LGB Jumbos are LGB's best but are 10 amps (great for anything LGB but not always enough for some trains).

You have already received a lot of great information on your previous topics as well as here. I just have a different way that I see the hobby and how I built my layouts. Not better just different.

Jerry


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Haha Jerry, i thank you for the critism i shall say. It atleast puts my brains to work to think indeed about what i want to do, I dont want my railway to be controlled with 1 controller, i want to run my locomotives with a remote controll such as those applications on your phone/ipad. (Pretty sure its DCC controlled then) Im kind of a really "New" Guy to the hobby when it goes down to electricity works and all those things. So far i only have straight track and a few of those crappy standard 30" corners, now i do understand i need atleast 16" radius for the bigboy wich is not the problem, just the money is quite hard to come by. i have also heard about using aristo craft track or something?

And i also have my big boy right now just for display. but eventually i want to run it from time to time on my outside garden track.

My garden railway also still has to be constructed but i am having a hard time starting it since i am not that experiences with the foundations i should use.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> Haha Jerry, i thank you for the critism i shall say. It atleast puts my brains to work to think indeed about what i want to do,
> 
> My garden railway also still has to be constructed but i am having a hard time starting it since i am not that experiences with the foundations i should use.


Hi Dean,

I did not mean to imply any sort of criticism at all. I have never seen a layout or a train that I did not like. Eventually everyone ends up with what they want and are happy with it.

You asked a lot of great questions and provided the photographs to show what you were trying to do. My layouts are flat and two dimensional. You would not want a layout like mine and by the same token I am not qualified to give good advice for building a layout in your beautiful yard. My skills are technical rather than visual.

None of my layouts are on the ground so I have never had to deal with having proper foundations - mostly 4" x 4"s sunk in concrete 18" deep.

50 years from now you may want/need an elevated layout like mine but at your age getting on your hands and knees is no big deal.

Have fun,

Jerry


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

I am also not planning on having my rails on the sam level as the grass, i will most likely increase the height by 10 centimeters so it you can see the trains running better. BUt i am trying to figure out what i need to use as foundation to raise the track up. Maybe stone or dirt im not sure, dirt most likely floats away when it rains but i will defenitly put small rocks for realism over the track.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> I am also not planning on having my rails on the sam level as the grass, i will most likely increase the height by 10 centimeters so it you can see the trains running better. BUt i am trying to figure out what i need to use as foundation to raise the track up. Maybe stone or dirt im not sure, dirt most likely floats away when it rains but i will defenitly put small rocks for realism over the track.


Dean, you clearly know to ask the right questions. I can't help here but others can.

Three questions.

Wife?

Children?

Pets?

Any of these might be important factors. 

"thequietdutchman"

There has to be a story there. 

Jerry


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

I only have one monster, a dog


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> I am also not planning on having my rails on the sam level as the grass, i will most likely increase the height by 10 centimeters so it you can see the trains running better. BUt i am trying to figure out what i need to use as foundation to raise the track up. Maybe stone or dirt im not sure, dirt most likely floats away when it rains but i will defenitly put small rocks for realism over the track.


Foundation:

Temporary? Are you likely to move within a few years?

Permanent (20 years)?

Is removing the layout and re-gardening a factor?

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

thequietdutchman said:


> I only have one monster, a dog


Is he young and like chew-toys (like plastic trains & track?)


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Most likely move in 10 years, removing the many trees on the right side is not possible, the few large trees that are seperated in the back are removeable. my dog wont chew on the toys but he might walk over the track and run a train over. but he usually gets out of the way or goes exploring. he is kind of an adventurer


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## thequietdutchman (Jun 30, 2014)

Jerry McColgan said:


> Foundation:
> 
> Temporary? Are you likely to move within a few years?
> 
> ...


Moving in 10 years probably to my own place. I can re-garden the garden so its not a problem


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