# Loose Screw in impossible spot (EBT 12)



## wowcow (Sep 12, 2011)

I've developed a loose screw on the crosshead guide of my Accucraft EBT #12. Does anyone know where to find a Jewelers screwdriver with an offset phillip head? Any other suggestion or trick to get in there would be appreciated.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Best bet is a hobby store. Good to have anyway. Might want to add a bit of loctite before tightening though. Just remember to use the weakest kind though.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

That's a booger. Can you get it all the way out? If so, just put it back in as best you can with loctite. 

The only other way I can see from the photo is take that upper bar off first.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a similar issue, 
Remove the running board and the rods should deflect enough to give straight access from above. 
Yes on the loctite, 
Tom


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## Bruce Sherman (Feb 19, 2008)

I have a set of offset screwdrivers I made. Radio Shack sells small phillips head and standard screwdrivers. Use an oxy-acetylene micro torch or standard torch to heat the shaft, and bend the head 90 degrees.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well Wowcow, 
I would be more worried that if that one is now loose, maybe others are going to come loose. 
Like my Dad would always tell me as a child (and an adult) "If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well", so I would consider stripping both sides down, so that you can tighten and loctite everything to prevent future troubles. 
Shouldn't HAVE to do it, but that's life. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been told I have several screws loose, and all attempts to tighten them have failed too........ 

On your problem child, I hesitate to even suggest it because it's really a last resort, but I have, in the past, managed to tighten small phillips screws in places like that by using the corner of a standards jeweler's screwdriver. Unfortunately, the odds are only about 60/40 whether you'll get it tight enough without boogering up the head. 

I agree with the guy who suggested partial disassembly to get proper access......And with the other gent that suggested double checking them all.

Loctite anything that moves that shouldn't and put fresh lube everything that should... You'll thank yourself later.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Id take the running board off along with the linkages that are in the way. You should be able to get to it.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

As others have suggested, it is easy to make your own small offset phillips screwdriver by heating and then bending the tip of the screwdriver at the point which will give you access to the offending screw. If you do decide to make your own offset screwdriver, you should consider tempering it as well so that you will have a small offset screwdriver that will last.

Briefly, and there is much more specific information on the Internet, tempering involves heating the blade slowly and evenly and then bending the tip at a point which will work for you. After the tip has been bent, it must be heated again and then quickly cooled in cold water. This hardens the steel in the blade, but at this point it is very brittle and will break. [You have more torque with an offset tool.] Now, it must be heated again to a specific color - blue for screwdrivers and other hand tools, and then allowed to cool gradually. The problem here is that these tools are tiny and they will cool quickly on their own, so the tempering process will be a little of a gamble unless you can slow the process.

Anyway, do a little research, have fun and do it properly and you will have a tool that you are happy with. 
Good luck,

Will


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Or you could just take some things apart, learn about your live steamer and be done with it.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

If is an Accucraft, call Cliff and he will tell you what to do. I have had to get into some of my ebgines for repair and it is not an easy task and if it envolves things that mihht screw up the timing, well thats another thing.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Art does speak truth. Why accucraft can not include schematics with their engines boggles my mind.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Because that would cost money and I guess they don'r feel their costumers are worthy, or willing to pay the extra money. How much are you willing to pay for it? 10% , 15% more?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If I had or was going to purchase an Accucraft engine, I'd expect to pay the same price with directions/schematics. I do wonder how much more the plans cost Aster.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The process of putting together assembly manuals adds about 25% to the cost. (this is what I have been told) It is a very labor intensive process.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 08 Jul 2012 07:40 PM 
If I had or was going to purchase an Accucraft engine, I'd expect to pay the same price with directions/schematics. I do wonder how much more the plans cost Aster. 

Well if you are willing to pay Aster pricing then Im sure Accucraft would include assembley drawings. Though in the past I think that Aster did not include instructions on a factory built engine but only kits. 
With that said Accucraft would not have the sales they do if their engines were 2x the price, for some they are at the top of the budget and Asters are a dream. Though for the most part if you take it apart and take photos you usually dont have an issue going back together. Just take your time and mark things. Would be the same for an Aster if you had to take it apart.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, RTR Asters came with the same assembly manuals as the kits.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess I got jipped on my NIB Climax as I got a manual from Hans. It only came with driving instructions.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I have heard of older kits where the manuals have gone missing also. I guess people open the box and pull out the manuals to look at, and they never get put back. I don't remember if the Schools I picked up and resold several years back had ANY papers with it any more. But it was a RTR never fired engine.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

25%? Pretty astonishing to me considering the price of paper. Seems now though, with advancements in technology, it would not be much at all to include these plans. Photos work as well if not better than drawn plans which are exploded. 

You could even make them available online. Ahhhh. Who needs them though. Just do what Jason suggests and all should be well.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The cost is in the prep of the drawings, not the printing of them.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jer 

The paper cost is NOTHING compared to putting together drawings that a novice can comprehend. And Aster regularly makes errors in spite of their best efforts. Remember... if you look at an Aster, it is designed to be disassembled and worked on. An Accucraft often has things assembled in somewhat obscure ways that make it difficult for the owner to work on the locomotive. I think the mind set of Accucraft is the same as Ferrari: unless you are a skilled mechanic with a full set of tools and a working knowledge of the object at hand, they fully expect you to take the vehicle/locomotive to an individual with the requisite skill, knowledge, experience, and tools. Often that turns out to be Cliff, or Dave, or Ryan, or Norm.... 

I also recognize that is a really UNSATISFACTORY answer... but lots of folks now running live steam have little or no mechanical aptitude and fail to understand even the most basic principles of steam operation. Understand that this is a general observation and IN NO WAY reflects on the originator of this post. He asked a very legitimate and simple question.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I coincidentally discovered the same issue on my engine today too. No idea where the screw went either!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

An alternative - I've got a micro-socket screwdriver set I got for Christmas (haven't a clue from where) that has small phillips and flat-head blades on 1/8" hexagonal stock. A little super glue on a 1/8" open-ended wrench (or dare I suggest miniature vice grips or a hemostat) will give you the right-angle driver you need. 

Or, if you don't want to bother with removing the running boards, just drill a small hole in the running board right above the screw. Ever look at prototype running boards? It's not uncommon to see holes in them where locos were re-plumbed for one reason or another, or where there was a knot that fell out of the wood. (Oh, wait.. Accucraft modeled metal running boards instead of the proper wood ones. } Sorry, couldn't resist.) Anyway, a small 1/16" hole would hardly be noticeable. 

(Note to self: check that screw on my loco) 

Later, 

K


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

K, 
I don't have access to an EBT 12, but from the photo it doesn't look like the screw in question could be accessed from above, so drilling a hole in the running board would not help! 
Or am I not looking at the photo correctly. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## agrund (Feb 19, 2011)

In such case I simply would replace the Phillips screw a with a hex head screw, access with a small hex wrench from the side should be easy. 

greetings, 
Andreas


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## Old Iron (Jan 2, 2008)

The very same screw was loose on my #12. After analyzing what would need to be dissembled and the time required, I decided to make a tool. 
It took longer to photograph and post this than it took to solder up a tool.

[url="


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I understand the process of coming up with the plans is the expensive and time consuming part. This is true of 6 to 10 years ago. However, I would argue that with photo technology and computer programs, that is no longer the case. Of course this has nothing to do with the initial post. This is just a sub-category derived from that initial query. 

In any case, there are no plans for the engine in question avaliable to the customer, so for now it is a moot point.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't have access to an EBT 12, but from the photo it doesn't look like the screw in question could be accessed from above... 
Yes it can. The guide for the valve is outside the crosshead guide. If it were directly above, none of the tools we're discussing would work as you wouldn't be able to get to it at all. The hole will be fairly close to the inside edge of the running board, but you can get to it from above. 

Geoff, that's exactly the screwdriver bit I was talking about. Remember where you got the set? 

Later, 

K


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Jer, on you next kit build, throw away the assembly manual, and write new ones, step by step. after a week when you are still doing what would have taken you a few hours WITH the manuals, you will realize the assembly books may be worth more then the pile of parts in front of you..... It takes 2 engineers over a month (full time) to put this together. If you can come up with a better way, that works as well or better, Aster wants to hear from you!


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## Old Iron (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 09 Jul 2012 08:40 AM 
Geoff, that's exactly the screwdriver bit I was talking about. Remember where you got the set? 
Later, 
K 

Kevin,
the screw driver bit was double ended and part of a set of interchangeable bits for a small screwdriver. I think the set was a "freebie" bonus with some purchase. One should be able to find these at a typical hardware store.
Actually, due to the space constraints, if I need to tighten the engineers side I will need to make another tool


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Checked and these screws are tight so far on BF #13. Maybe it pays to not be superstitious? Have found a few other screws loose though, as covered in a previous post. 

Finding loose screws is not a big deal; what happens when one causes some running gear to come undone during operation can be. 

Larry


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Woah Jeff. Don't know how you came to the conclusion that I feel I can do any better. It comes down to this. The hobby of live steam is not the cheapest, so if Aster had a version of RTR without the manual at a lower cost, I'd pay the difference for the one with the manual. Without wanting to turn this into a war between manufactureres, my opinion is that accucraft should and could provide a means for a detailed assembly manual. 

I can't tell you how many times I've read that this is a tinkerer's hobby and I agree. However, that is pretty daunting for some out there without some assembly guidance. 

Me? I tend to have always felt very comfortable AND capable of tearing things apart, seeing what makes them tick and then successfully re-assembling them. 

Has Accucraft ever tried to guage whether it's customer base was willing to spend a bit more for those manuals? Besides, Aster already provides exploded diagrams/ pictures.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah. Don't take my post the wrong way, I was just try to get you to look at it from a different perspective. I have talked to Hans years ago about some of the differences in the price between Aster and Accucraft. The first thing one thinks of is cheap Chinese labor that Accucraft uses vs Japanese labor that Aster uses. But the reality is, offering their product in KIT for is a much bigger item. A large share of their customers enjoy building the engines as much as running them so they offer everything in kit form. I think that RTR only accounts for about 25 or 30% of total units sold. 
I don't need to tell you the feeling of accomplishment one feels the first time you bring an engine to life after building it. However there are plenty of people who enjoy buying a RTR and running it "as delivered" or some putting the same amount of effort it takes to build a kit into bashing it into something "custom" . Everything from some added detail bits to a major conversion like the Flat Faced Cab forward that Allen did, Or the Boilers for coal firing that Triple R Services is offering. 
Jeff


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Well thanks for explaining in more detail. Always good to look at it from different angles.


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## wowcow (Sep 12, 2011)

Whew! I thought that was going to be a dumb question, but the responses are still coming. 

To reply to several of your thoughts: 1) Cliff was my first choice. He told me I could find an offset Jewelers screwdriver by doing an internet search. I went way beyond that, having visited four hobby stores and called two jewelry supply companies. I think Cliff was guessing this time. 2) It could definately be reached from above, but I'm not so sure I'm willing to try removing the running boards for risk of stripping one of those screws, and have a new problem. 2b) Drill a hole in the running board ... I don't know, it's only six months old, I want it to look it came from Baldwin a little longer (yea, I know they didn't have come with brass boiler straps from Baldwin). Kevin, if I could weather as good as you, the tiny hole would be an option, but I have to give that more thought. 3) Replace with a hex head, the screw is counter-sunk so I don't think I'd want the head sticking up, not to mention the screw is only loose, I can't get it off or tight, 4) I think Kevin's scratchbuilt screwdriver makes the most sense. I don't know if I could find a small rachet type but I should be able to cut the end off a Jewelers screwdriver with a Dremel and super glue it! 

Thank you, All.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, 
I know I'm just a dumb s*** but I told the guy on the first page that I had the same problem and how I fixed it. I can't believe the bs generated by this thread from Mr Icehijacker and others who don't have an EBT #12 maybe never even saw one et cetera. Probably the moderators will tell me how I'm out of line but that's OK. 
I feel better now, 
Tom


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, if you follow the thread you will see some of us drifted off the OP's question because the subject of instruction/assembly manuals was brought up. I'm as guilty here as anyone, but it seems to happen more often then not. On the up side the OP (wowcow) got lots of good suggestions. So not all was lost.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom B 

You gave a simple, cogent, and clear recommendation based on personal experience. Unfortunately your response did not contain unwarranted assumptions, lack of factual support, or a demonstrated total lack of knowledge and experience with the specific item in question. 

Clearly, you were TOTALLY UNQUALIFIED to respond to the thread!!!! 

Such is life on MLS. 

As I learned early in life... just because the facts are relevant does not mean they will be considered important.... or the other way around.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Ha ha. Wow. 

Water off a duck's back brother. All you can do. That is a cool name though. ICEJACKER. Nobody better lay a finger on my ice.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Would not be the first time the answer is on page one, and people join the thread on page 2 and never look at the original post. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No worries, Tom. The suggestions for repair that do not necessitate removal of the running boards certainly have merit. Heck, even _I_ wimped out when I modified my loco when it came to removing them. Now, I _can't_ remove them because the screws are underneath the wood laminate I used on top. 

As for Accucraft's "documentation," that's decidedly their weak point. When the manual that comes with the loco doesn't even mention the lubricator drain or blowdown valve under the cab, it's clear they're not focused on being all that thorough. They leave a lot for the user to figure out for himself. Fortunately, their customers are fairly resourceful in that regard, and don't mind sharing tips on forums like this. 

Later, 

K


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Not to beat a dead horse but... 

...I design plywood kayak kits for the home builder. I can attest that writing the manual is a huge part of the design process. I can design the kayak and get it to the (computer controlled) manufacturer in about 2/3s the time it takes me to arrange my photos and write the text for the same boat. mind you I also have to build one and photograph every step, draw explanatory drawings for certain steps and plan the building procedure for easiest work and best results for the uninitiated. I do not even do the work of producing the manual which i have written, an art department guy takes my photos and text and arranges them into a booklet, often 50-100 pages worth. building a kayak is different but far simpler than building a locomotive. 

here is one of my kayaks


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah. I think it is safe to say I get that producing a manual is not cheap, nor does it look like it can be done well for any less. Why some manufacturers do not make them has me head scratching. It's ok though. This subject is NOT as serious as it sounds and NOT the end of the world. 

These things have been worked on for years without them and likely will continue so. 

I would like to say that this place would be a dead forum without side questions that arise from initial querries. I've seen those places. Not productive at all, but a waste of bandwidth. Thanks. Eric, from a guy who has done plenty of kayaking, that is a beauty.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

I work in the hobby industry. To write a GOOD manual for an airplane ARF, a simple one is over 40 man hours, a kit and your talking months.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I have read ALL the preceding pages, and fully understand what has been said about the cost of manuals and fully agree! 
But, another thought about Accucraft is - do they not have to have something already produced to help with the construction of their models? 
I have no idea (and it seems no one else either) as to what the Accucraft factory looks like, how their models are built up, whether one by one, or a construction line, or at homes on the kitchen counter, BUT you would think that there are already exploded drawings, or detailed description of how things go together, like a manual. 
You can't just give a box of parts to someone, and say "Built me an EBT 12 out of this lot". 
Or maybe you can! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

BUT you would think that there are already exploded drawings, or detailed description of how things go together, like a manual. That's fine if one can read Chinese. hehehe


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Or if you can read Chinglish!


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