# caboose direction?



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Here is a question that might start a debate. 
When it comes to postioning a caboose with a cupola at the end of a train it just seems "right" to have the cupola toward the back. I have seen other garden lines and the owners have put their caboose the other way with the cupola facing the front of the train. I say to each their own if you like running it that way but what is the proper way? Which way did the real RRs run them back in the day? Maybe this question was a cause for great tension amongst the RR men and many fistsfights broke out as to which was the "right" way to position the caboose and cupola forward or to the rear. No doubt this is why the caboose with the cupola in the center came to be invented.!! 
I suppose the train would hook up to the caboose whichever way it was facing and pull it regardless. 
At the same time how about combine? I would say the correct way is to have the baggage section toward the front of the train and the passengers behind, it just makes sense but I have seen it both ways in videos and pictures of garden RRs . 
In the real world which way were they run? 
Why not position the caboose right behind the tender seems just as good a place as at the end especially when hauling a long string of hoppers for example. This might seem like a good idea except for safety purposes and the hanging of signals from the rear of the train etc...

I'm taking a stand. So how many guys run their cabooses and their combines backwards?? Or is it forwards???


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Cupola to the rear and passenger side to the rear.


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

As a kid, growing up in the south of California (but not as far south as where Greg is), I saw many a Santa Fe caboose, with the cupola forward. It was to the point that I thought that was how it was done. The Sata Fe was my road then. Even after I left the roost and moved north into the redwoods, I did not think it was unusual, though there the Southern Pacific cabeese were bay windows. Later in life, while working in Washington (the one named after the president, not the actor Denzel), I would see the BN running locals with the caboose behind the engine. So in hindsight, I think the big boys run their trains the same we do, which is whatever way makes us happy. 

Fil


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I seem to remember reading one day that it was preferred to have the cupola closest to the front of the train. This was because the caboose smoke stack would be at the rear of the train and not impeding the view of the consist from the cupola. 

My 2 cents worth, I bet we get 50% each way. 

Not sure on the combine, I agree with Steve because I think it looks nice that way.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

the caboose was at the rear because the crew could monitor the brake line pressure at the end of the train. 

If the markers were not movable, they would go to the rear, some had hangers for them at both ends. 

Wood cabooses were at the rear because they could not stand the buffing forces of the train, crushing a boxcar would cost the lading, crushing a caboose would kill the crew. 

Pushers had to cut in in front of wood cabooses for that very problem. They could not push through the caboose because it could not take the load.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Cabooses generally have always been bi-directional. Whichever way they were facing is the way they went. That's not to say that a particular line didn't have a reason to face them a certain way but it took extra time and moves to turn a caboose. Sometimes I suppose that when a wye was used to turn the engines the assigned caboose might just go along for the ride and therefore be turned too at the conductor's discretion. 

The combine would normally be placed between the coaches and the front end cars and would therefore be properly oriented to join with the passenger cars in the rear and the baggage section to the front. There were always exceptions though. For example the combine might have been picked up at a junction, etc., along the way and be facing wrong when picked up or it could be slated to be dropped off somewhere and purposely faced wrong to accommodate the train it was to go to. Sometimes two whole trains would be joined as one and be separated later to go on different routes. Lots of reasons for strange looking configurations. The higher the class of train though the less likelihood it would be configured wrong. 

Cabooses were the conductor's headquarters. A normal (average) crew consisted of five men. On the engine the engineer, fireman and head end brakeman or flagman. In the caboose the conductor and the rear brakeman or flagman. It was necessary to put out a flagman both to front and rear when the train was stopped on the mainline thus you needed the caboose on the rear as it could be a long walk down a mile long freight train. In the days of hand braking there could be quite a number of brakemen decorating the car tops, six, seven or more on early mountain railroads to keep the train in check. 

Also the caboose era was before the EOT devices so the rear markers gave warning at night. No train was official until it had its caboose attached. There were temporary situations where a caboose might be behind the engine because of some switching close by but the proper place for the caboose was on the end of the train. A crew member, usually the rear brakeman would be seated in the cupola to watch along the train for hotboxes or derailments as the train proceeded and could pull the brakes in case of emergency. 

On the POC the daily mixed uses a caboose-combine at the rear of the train and in true short line fashion isn't turned around for the return trip but, rather just tagged onto the rear however it's facing.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

We run cabeese both ways. We sort of have to based on our track plan (point to point with a reverse loop at one end and a turntable for turning locos at the other end). 


We start out with the cupola to the rear. Head out toward the loop and come back. The loco heads to the turntable to turn around. But the turntable is not long enough or even practical to turn the rest of the train. So I do some switching to at least get the caboose to the rear of the train. But the cupola is now toward the front because the caboose changed directions at the loop. So with the loco turned and now coupled to the train we head out toward the loop and come back again. This time, after turning the loco at the turntable and switching the caboose to the rear of the train, the cupola is now toward the rear again. 

We do this over and over.

Kind of fun having a point to point with just one loop at one end. 


I don't know if what I posted makes any sense at all. Take a look at our layout video (posted on our website...link in my signature) if you are confused to see the loop at one end and the station terminal at the other. 




Oh and Fil, I agree. The Santa Fe cabeese I remember seeing were often cupola forward.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Even with dual brakewheels, cabeese still have an A and B end technically. Check the brake cylinder (K or AB) and the "B" end is the end with the rod that exits the cylinder.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned "Jim Crow" cars. A combine would normally be run with the baggage section forward, to allow passengers to move freely from one car to the next. In the South, however, a combine might be put in the train with the baggage section toward the rear, and the passenger section would be designated "colored only." There was usually no communication between one section and the other, thus effectively keeping races separate. Also, being right behind the engine (and of course rarely having A/C) meant that the Jim Crow section would get plenty of cinders and soot and noise from the locomotive.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

No doubt this is why the caboose with the cupola in the center came to be invented.!! 
On the Union Pacific, the wooden CA-1 class cabeese had off-center cupolas (cupoli?), but all subsequent classes of steel cabeese had them centered. Maybe that is when they settled the arguement, LOL. 
This makes me wonder: what is the reason for off-center cupolas? Did it have something to do with making the best use of the interior space?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 11 Oct 2010 03:00 PM 
No doubt this is why the caboose with the cupola in the center came to be invented.!!
On the Union Pacific, the wooden CA-1 class cabeese had off-center cupolas (cupoli?), but all subsequent classes of steel cabeese had them centered. Maybe that is when they settled the arguement, LOL. 
This makes me wonder: what is the reason for off-center cupolas? Did it have something to do with making the best use of the interior space? 

You still had the problem of the pot-bellied stove's chimney. If it were toward the front, the smoke would cause problems for the observer in the cupola. Still, expediency ruled the day most of the time and turning the caboose was sometimes not the expedient thing to do.

But then, when I am running a train with a caboose, I always put the caboose on the tracks with the chimney to the rear. (The "five-finger" Big-Hook makes that easy!)


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

This horse was pretty well rode into the ground in a discussion several months ago. I am unable to find it using the search functions but I believe it was in the Beginner's Forum and it started off as a question regarding the somke stack. I can tell you from personal experience that the ammount of smoke given off by a coal fire, large or small, in a caboose stove in an actual caboose is insignificant and dry wood burning in a stove like that wouldn't give off much smoke either.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By hawkeye2 on 12 Oct 2010 08:57 PM 
This horse was pretty well rode into the ground in a discussion several months ago. I am unable to find it using the search functions but I believe it was in the Beginner's Forum and it started off as a question regarding the somke stack. I can tell you from personal experience that the ammount of smoke given off by a coal fire, large or small, in a caboose stove in an actual caboose is insignificant and dry wood burning in a stove like that wouldn't give off much smoke either.

Appears to have been about a year ago in this very same forum: Caboose running - smoke stack to the front or rear?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gee fellas, I hope you'll be here to point that out when it's asked again in a year! 

I figgure in 10 years everything has been asked already, but to somebody new it will be fresh hosses for all....


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks Jim, given my memory and computer illiteracy I could neither remember nor find it.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 13 Oct 2010 07:46 PM 
Gee fellas, I hope you'll be here to point that out when it's asked again in a year! 

I figgure in 10 years everything has been asked already, but to somebody new it will be fresh hosses for all.... 
Sorry, I didn't mean it to seem that way. I provided the link in case anyone wanted to see the previous discussion.

Also, I didn't want hawkeye2 to feel bad about his computer skills- the search function on this site is absolutely abysmal. First off, if you want to find something in one of the discussion forums, you have to know to use the "Search" link between "My Settings" and "Members", NOT the box with the magnifying lens next to it. Then, it is very iffy on what it returns. I happened to search on "cupola" thinking it would be more specific than "caboose" and found the thread I linked, which has the word "caboose" in the subject. But if I use the same search method with the word "caboose" instead, it doesn't find the thread. Go figure . . . And forget trying to find anything by user or member activity! I belong to a couple of other forums that use vBulletin, and there is simply no comparison.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I remember the ICG cabooses in Illinois ALWAYS having the cupola to the rear.... always! 
therefore, this is correct for me and MY railroad... lol
old wise guy once told me.... it's your railroad, do what YOU want! hehe


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

John, the IC/ICG down here in Mississippi ran the cupola to the rear of the caboose unless turning it was burdensome. They would come into Water Valley on 41/42 with the cupola to the rear. But if the caboose went back the direction it came, they would not wye it just run it out. By the time I came to work for the ICG, the cabooses were all wide vision, so it did not matter. 
Ron


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember once seeing a center cupola caboose running with the smokejack to the front and the crewman was hanging out the cupola window as far as he could to get out of the black smoke coming from the chimney in front of him. I have no idea just what was being burned in that potbelly stove, but it sure looked like it might have been old rubber tires! I don't remember noticing all that many cabeese as I was usually still shaking from seeing the steam locomotive on the front of the train.


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

You didn't step on my toes but if you had I wear steel toed boots and assume everyone else does too!







I had set out to post a link to the previous discussion but couldn't find it and I tried not to sound too negative regarding this site's "search" function as I didn't want to sidetrack the discussion. Actuaslly my computer skills are pretty good till it comes to "search". Now for my 2 cents worth: I've been around a while and have never seen a caboose running any way except with its longitudinal axis parallel to the rails, nuf said!


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By hawkeye2 on 13 Oct 2010 09:03 PM 
... I've been around a while and have never seen a caboose running any way except with its longitudinal axis parallel to the rails,..


I'll second that... but I have seen locomotives and freight cars with severe deviations from parallel.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I was thinking about the issue of putting the smoke jack behind the cupola, and that got me looking at surviving cabs and old photos.. 

On the Southern and Virginian cabs that I've seen, both with center cupolas, the smoke jack is significantly higher than the roof of the cupola, and very close to it. Thus it would seem that smoke would not be an issue regardless of the direction of operation, at least on these cabs. 

Did other railroads have their smoke jacks shorter than the cupolas? That seems foolish, unless needed for overhead clearance..


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

At ease gents,

For the OP to be told we already rode it to death came off as .... well I would have been frustrated to read that and disheartened...

I agree that search here sucks, I go to google and get sent back here to the proper pages. On behalf of the OP thanks for the link.

I tried to keep it light with fresh hosses....









Jim you're 'protecting' Hawkeye2 and I the OP!







I didn't want him to feel bad for asking the question. ...again.

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Regarding the smokejack... fore or aft, on many freight drags it might matter more on which way the wind blows!

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I asked a question something like this about a NW-2 as to which end was the front. Turns out It is Marked with a F. Are Cabeese Maked that way also?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 16 Oct 2010 11:10 AM 
I asked a question something like this about a NW-2 as to which end was the front. Turns out It is Marked with a F. Are Cabeese Maked that way also? Railroad cars have an "A" and a "B" end, the "B" being the end with the brake wheel. Some are only marked with a "B" on that end, others have both ends marked. I think cabeese were labeled the same way. I don't remember seeing or reading about anything different about cabeese specifically.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 16 Oct 2010 11:38 AM 
Posted By John J on 16 Oct 2010 11:10 AM 
I asked a question something like this about a NW-2 as to which end was the front. Turns out It is Marked with a F. Are Cabeese Maked that way also? Railroad cars have an "A" and a "B" end, the "B" being the end with the brake wheel. Some are only marked with a "B" on that end, others have both ends marked. I think cabeese were labeled the same way. I don't remember seeing or reading about anything different about cabeese specifically.


The vast majority of cars are not marked at all. Cabeese would often be marked to indicate the "B" end, since having brake wheels on each end makes it difficult to determine without crawling under the car. Most freight cars are not marked at all, since the brake wheel serves as its own indication. I don't know that I've ever seen the "A" end of a car marked, except some of the multi-unit intermodal cars.


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## jlyans (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are two different pictures of trains on the Sacramento Northern RR.




Cupola to rear: 












Cupola to front: John L.


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## Bob Small (Jan 3, 2008)

For the C&O C-25 class wide-vision caboose, C&O designate the end that the cupola is offset towards (ie the short roof), is the A end.

As far as running direction is concerned, some photos have them running short roof forward, others have them long hood forward. Even in the yard photos with a string of cabeese waiting for service, they are "mixed" up.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in the day you could run the caboose in either direction as the rear markers could be moved to either end of the caboose depending how is was put in the train. Later RJD


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