# LGB White Pass Limited Edition Loco - 21832 - Poor running



## Chrisdy (Feb 17, 2010)

A close friend has recently acquired one of LGB's White Pass (WP & YR) Limited Edition brass locos (21832) made by Aster Hobbys. It runs incredibly slowly even at 20v DC. Enquiries with the supplier indicate that this is normal operation for this model and that there is nothing that can be done to improve its running speed. Does anyone on the Forum own and run this model (I appreciate that a lot of the ones sold are actually sitting on bookshelves) and are there any modifications that anyone has had done (or done themselves) that can improve the speed of this model?

Grateful for any pointers to improvements otherwise this one is likely to become just another bookshelf model. Given that it looks great on the track, that would be a pity, but the current max speed is so glacial it drives the owner mad.

Chris D


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris,

Is that the White Pass and Yukon Mikado #73? Another user on this site has one of those locomotives and has reported a similar experience regarding the top speed. If I remember correctly, the answer LGB gave was the top speed of that locomotive was about 30, which is what that engine does... 

The plastic LGB mikado I have does not run very fast either, but then again, it is a freight locomotive not the Acela..


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I would guess it is geared low. It would take 24 Volts. That would speed it up a little.


----------



## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an LGB White Pass engine as well. It is a good puller but has a low gearing system. This is the way it is supposed to run. Doesn't make any to me either. Dennis.


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I have one.
It is indeed a slow, but strong runner.
Why would that be poor?
It's prototypical for narrow gauge steam lokies.
All the NG steam locos, K's, C's, etc are slow runners, unlike high speed standard gauge steam locos.
The gearbox is driven by a large motor using a belt drive. (Entirely different than the LGB "standard gauge" mikados.)

I converted mine to Battery/RC. It is not a shelf queen.
All the LGB electronics were removed and Airwire with a Phoenix sound system was installed. !4.4 Volt NiMh battery in the tender and it runs perfectly.


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Have one here. 
It's a dog. 
On an 18V pack, it creeps. 

That is, until I fixed it. 
It's perfect now, and battery r/c'd, for those showing up for an ops session tomorrow, they can see and run it. 

Yanked that POS motor, put a 19V Pittman into it, had to drill and file out the sprocket to fit, not too bad. 

Also, left all the horsestuff in the boiler, just disconnected, added a decent, controllable P5+P5-t in the tender, along with 4.5AH batteries and r/c 

I do believe Ron will be happy with it. 

TOC


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 18 Feb 2010 10:38 PM 
Have one here. 
It's a dog. 
On an 18V pack, it creeps. 

That is, until I fixed it. 
It's perfect now, and battery r/c'd, for those showing up for an ops session tomorrow, they can see and run it. 

Yanked that POS motor, put a 19V Pittman into it, had to drill and file out the sprocket to fit, not too bad. 

Also, left all the horsestuff in the boiler, just disconnected, added a decent, controllable P5+P5-t in the tender, along with 4.5AH batteries and r/c 

I do believe Ron will be happy with it. 

TOC Mornin', Dave - if you do a search on this subject, you'll see that my name appears more than just about anybody else's. When this loco came out it was a must-have for me, but after THREE died of the graunching gearbox in less than a minute - each - I finally snapped, and had the last one delivered to the Toy Fair stand of the personal attention of the Richters.

After a long wait, I got another one- with a letter from Rolf Richter telling me to run it as much as I wanted, as it was definitely fixed 'this time'. He also told me that regardless of the upper level of the throttle setting it was electronically-governed NOT to exceed a scale 28mph, the top speed of the real 73. I do believe that it was not meant to be a 'Hiawatha'.

If you lived nearer, then you would have mine to convert for sure, but even coming over to Oregon you are still a bit too far form me to transport such a lump. I'll have to make do with what there is.

Mind you, I'd love for to see what you did, and how you did it.

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Chrisdy (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes, it is the 'infamous' No 73. As both the owner and I suspected, from the comments of those that have done it, it is going to take some pretty radical surgery to improve the speed. The reasons given by LGB may be just an excuse because they got it wrong in the design. Surely it should be left to the owners to decide at what speed they wish to run their locos. That's what controllers are for. The problem with this model is that if you have any form of automated analogue system where different locos/consists are running (i.e not DCC where you can set different speeds for each loco), then at the power setting where every other loco is running at the right speed, the White Pass No 73 is barely moving, never mind running at the scale speed of 28mph. If LGB had really 'governed' the max speed to be 28mph, then it should run at that speed for possibly the top half of the controller setting/voltage. The fact that you have to have the controller/voltage at maximum before you get even that speed implies to me that it isn't governed, it's just got very low gearing. There were parts of the owner's layout on the curves where, when pulling only 4 coaches, the loco looked like it was struggling to get round the bend, never mind travelling at a scale 28mph. Considering that his track is perfectly flat, with R3 (8ft) curves, he didn't consider that to be acceptable. It certainly didn't look like the powerful, pull-the-side-off-a-house, loco that it's supposed to be.

Partly as a result of the feedback confirming his view that drastic surgery is needed to get it compatible with the voltage setting for all his other locos (which should not be necessary with a loco costing as much as this one does) the owner has decided to cut his losses and return the loco to the dealer for a full refund. I also note that LGB made absolutely no mention of 'scale speed' running in their very large page description in their main catalogue (2003) where they showpieced this loco as one of their flagship limited edition models. Pity, as it is a very good looking loco.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for the feedback - much appreciated.

Chris D


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Chrisdy on 19 Feb 2010 11:08 AM ...which should not be necessary with a loco costing as much as this one does Chris D 
Sir - I am going to make myself VERY unpopular with the LGB foamers now, and go out on a limb, so to speak, and point out that the far greater part of the cost of this model was the all-metal bits made by Aster, and asking the poor little LGB motor to lug around a beautifully-wrought all metal and thirteen-pound superstructure instead of the couple of pounds - if that- of the plastic mike was going to lead to grief, as I wrote to both Dave Buffington and LGB when we first began to experience the failures of this great-looking but highly-flawed lemon. Paying the full MRSP over here in Europe, and not buying it as a remaindered warehouse clearance model the way many acquired it in the US did not help endear me to it either - there is a world of difference between $750 and $4500, as I'm sure most of you would readily agree. 


Aster were mortified to have been associated with this fiasco - and I know that for a fact from a former employee of the company in Yokohama. You will look VERY hard for any LGB component on either the later NG/G16 Garratt or the little Saxonian Mallet - both flawlessly beautiful models. 

Still and all, I'm stuck with my 73 now, as over here in UK there is neither any way that it can either be serviced in future, nor improved the way TOC has done it.









tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac,
I'm confused. What Dave said he did was to disconnect all the electronic sound in the boiler but leave it in place. He changed out the motor with a 19v Pittman and it now runs exactly the way an LGB Mikado does. Yes, he had to drill out the hole so the gear would fit the larger axle of the Pittman motor and he then stuffed the electronics in the tender (where they work just fine!) You're an accomplished modeller! What Dave did should be relatively easy for you to duplicate! The hardest part would be getting the gear to set properly on the axle and Dave could do that for you and send you the motor! Then, it becomes a relatively straightforward install. I've seen your work. This would not be beyond you at all so why not try it? It's got to be better than having a shelf queen!


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chrisdy on 19 Feb 2010 11:08 AM 
[...] The fact that you have to have the controller/voltage at maximum before you get even that speed implies to me that it isn't governed, it's just got very low gearing. There were parts of the owner's layout on the curves where, when pulling only 4 coaches, the loco looked like it was struggling to get round the bend, never mind travelling at a scale 28mph. Considering that his track is perfectly flat, with R3 (8ft) curves, he didn't consider that to be acceptable. It certainly didn't look like the powerful, pull-the-side-off-a-house, loco that it's supposed to be.[...]

Chris D

Chris, LGB locomotives do not have low gearing. Some sound equipped locos have voltage limiting circuitry. Apparently LGB set the starting voltage too high on this loco. If you are bothered, change the voltage limiting circuit or skip it connecting the motor directly to power pickups. This should solve your problem with this loco. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By tacfoley on 19 Feb 2010 04:41 PM 
[...] 

Aster were mortified to have been associated with this fiasco - and I know that for a fact from a former employee of the company in Yokohama. You will look VERY hard for any LGB component on either the later NG/G16 Garratt or the little Saxonian Mallet - both flawlessly beautiful models. 
[...] 


tac
www.ovgrs.org 


Terry, a little correction. Both NGG-13 (not 16!) and the Saxonian TSSD have entire motorblocks by LGB just like the WP&Y#73. These are proven drives and perform very well on these locomotives. All Aster/LGB locomotives until the Hudson have metal chassis with two LGB motors, after the Hudson they have LGB motorblocks. The Mikado's articulated motorblock was a new development by LGB, perhaps under-tested and unfortunately somewhat unsuitable for the WP&Y#73. Indeed, it is a pity that LGB did not choose to have the entire drivetrain for the WP&Y Mikado to be developed by Aster, with proper size wheels. But then, it was a matter of cost, and LGB is known for using only a few driver sizes on all of their locomotives. Percentage-wise, the compromise in terms of the wheel diameter on the WP&Y is about the same as on the D&RGW Mikado. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 19 Feb 2010 09:34 PM 
Posted By tacfoley on 19 Feb 2010 04:41 PM 
[...] 

Aster were mortified to have been associated with this fiasco - and I know that for a fact from a former employee of the company in Yokohama. You will look VERY hard for any LGB component on either the later NG/G16 Garratt or the little Saxonian Mallet - both flawlessly beautiful models. 
[...] 


tac
www.ovgrs.org 


Terry, a little correction. Both NGG-13 (not 16!) and the Saxonian TSSD have entire motorblocks by LGB just like the WP&Y#73. These are proven drives and perform very well on these locomotives. All Aster/LGB locomotives until the Hudson have metal chassis with two LGB motors, after the Hudson they have LGB motorblocks. The Mikado's articulated motorblock was a new development by LGB, perhaps under-tested and unfortunately somewhat unsuitable for the WP&Y#73. Indeed, it is a pity that LGB did not choose to have the entire drivetrain for the WP&Y Mikado to be developed by Aster, with proper size wheels. But then, it was a matter of cost, and LGB is known for using only a few driver sizes on all of their locomotives. Percentage-wise, the compromise in terms of the wheel diameter on the WP&Y is about the same as on the D&RGW Mikado. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

Mornin', Zubi - yes, I know about the articulation of the Mike chassis - that was the whole point of the extensive report I sent to Mr Buffington and Herr Richter - complete with weight distribution loadings on each end, and measurements of the deflection in the joint due to downward pressure at the extreme ends of the unit due to the mass of the metal body. On my last model - the one that I am now stuck with, the second and third drivers do not actually touch the track at all, and the cylinders have adopted a rather jaunty 'squint' of about three degrees to the horizontal as a result of this deflection. Neither the Garratt nor the Mallet have this articulation, hence their success. In response to a query on this forum, I also carried out a full set of measurements of the model , comparing it with Baldwin's works drawings of the locomotive, and found that the drivers were 4mm to large in diameter, but that almost everything else was spot on for 1:22.5 scale.

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Chrisdy (Feb 17, 2010)

Posted By zubi on 19 Feb 2010 08:42 PM 
Posted By Chrisdy on 19 Feb 2010 11:08 AM 
[...] The fact that you have to have the controller/voltage at maximum before you get even that speed implies to me that it isn't governed, it's just got very low gearing. There were parts of the owner's layout on the curves where, when pulling only 4 coaches, the loco looked like it was struggling to get round the bend, never mind travelling at a scale 28mph. Considering that his track is perfectly flat, with R3 (8ft) curves, he didn't consider that to be acceptable. It certainly didn't look like the powerful, pull-the-side-off-a-house, loco that it's supposed to be.[...]

Chris D

Chris, LGB locomotives do not have low gearing. Some sound equipped locos have voltage limiting circuitry. Apparently LGB set the starting voltage too high on this loco. If you are bothered, change the voltage limiting circuit or skip it connecting the motor directly to power pickups. This should solve your problem with this loco. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi Zubi, thanks for the suggestion. However, since it is not my loco it isn't me that has to decide what to do. The owner has always wanted one of these locos, but was faced with a stark choice: he either had to return the loco untouched for a refund, or risk taking apart a very expensive loco (we are in UK, so it costs a small fortune over here) in the hope that he might be able to sort the problem. He didn't have the circuit diagrams of the controller modules or engineering drawings (the LGB exploded diagram CD doesn't have this model) and therefore would be working blind when he took it apart. As he is not that happy using computers he asked me if I would post the question on the site just in case there was a simple 'fix' that could be applied. While he is an excellent mechanical engineer, he is less confident on anything to do with electronic circuits, or electrics in general. Since the dealer was being very good in offering a full refund (given that the model is not 'faulty' in the accepted sense) he has decided that the risks of taking it apart and still being unable to get it running to his expectations were greater than the loss of never owning this particular loco. He is still very annoyed that LGB should have released a 'limited edition' loco which was so poorly set up. At the sort of prices being charged in UK, it is not reasonable to have to start rebuilding either the motive powertrain or the electronics just to get this loco to run properly (notwithstanding the 'scale speed' comments). I can well understand Aster being less than happy with their association with such a model.

Chris D


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Sir - you don't say where you live in the UK, but in my neck of the woods, East Anglia, we have the excellent Glendale Junction, run by Brian and Caroline Osborne. Brian has a lot of experience in sorting out LGB electronics, and might even be able to fix your pal's loco to run at a speed that he expects.

The reason why he has not already done so on mine is that the last problem I had with it was solved by purely mechanical repairs that I carried out myself, thanks to the good advice of my cous' on this forum - Jerry McColgan - and a couple of other guys. Moreover, I'm happy with the slow-coach velocity of my loco and the half a dozen Bachmann WP cars I expect it to haul at a scale 20mph or so. Having seen the real thing in action with ten cars behind it, I have to say that 'sedate' looks just fine to me. If I had wanted a high-speed loco then I wouldn't have picked a narrow gauge line to model.

Very sadly, we have been deprived of the expertise of the inestimable John Powers of HobbyBahn, who died suddenly a couple of weeks ago. John was another such expert in programming electronics of all kinds, as well as a great guy, and we will miss him greatly.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Chrisdy (Feb 17, 2010)

Posted By tacfoley on 20 Feb 2010 06:17 AM 


Sir - you don't say where you live in the UK, but in my neck of the woods, East Anglia, we have the excellent Glendale Junction, run by Brian and Caroline Osborne. Brian has a lot of experience in sorting out LGB electronics, and might even be able to fix your pal's loco to run at a speed that he expects.

The reason why he has not already done so on mine is that the last problem I had with it was solved by purely mechanical repairs that I carried out myself, thanks to the good advice of my cous' on this forum - Jerry McColgan - and a couple of other guys. Moreover, I'm happy with the slow-coach velocity of my loco and the half a dozen Bachmann WP cars I expect it to haul at a scale 20mph or so. Having seen the real thing in action with ten cars behind it, I have to say that 'sedate' looks just fine to me. If I had wanted a high-speed loco then I wouldn't have picked a narrow gauge line to model.

Very sadly, we have been deprived of the expertise of the inestimable John Powers of HobbyBahn, who died suddenly a couple of weeks ago. John was another such expert in programming electronics of all kinds, as well as a great guy, and we will miss him greatly.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/ 

Tac, I am down in Dorset, and the owner of the loco lives just over the road from me. I do indeed do a lot of business with Glendale Junction for my own garden railway (we are having a joint Open Day in Aug so lots of work to do...!!), and have always found them to be excellent and very helpful, but unfortunately that was not where the owner purchased the loco from (it was GRS). The owner did speak to a couple of contacts who do work on LBG locos, both of whom said it was not worth the trouble, which was another reason he decided to return the model. He really didn't want to spend another fortune trying to fix an already costly loco.

Thanks for the suggestion anyway - I knew this site would throw up some good ideas and had the model been one of the normal priced LGB locos then I am sure some of the suggestions would have been followed up.

Chris D


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris, OK, I understand that you are looking for advice for someone else. I suggested changing the voltage regulating circuitry - if one is indeed bothered with the locomotive starting to move at too high voltage. But it may well be possible that this locomotive will work just fine when higher voltages are applied, perhaps up to 25Volt or even slightly more, although I would not advice exceeding 30V. I believe the owners of plastic Mikado's may be able to help and provide some advice here, as the drive used on the WP&Y#73 is identical to that used on the plastic, standard gauge Mikados and likely, the control electronics used is identical too. While I have one of these locomotives, I have relatively little insight into the operation, as I still did not even manage to take it out of the box since I got it when it was released - by now I even forgot in which country I left it;-(... But I have seen these locomotives during assembly at Aster, so I had a chance to examine the internals, including the drive used. My feeling is that this locomotive received somewhat disproportionate amount of Web bashing. There are 600 of them, and if they were really that bad, we would see some kind of a drive replacement and electronics being offered by cottage industry. After all, there are people who make custom drives even for dirt cheap plastic toys. This locomotive is now a part of LGB history, and I must say that the history related to the Limited Editions with Aster is a particularly exciting one. Every single release was substantially different, not only in terms of the prototype, but also in terms of the modelling approach and in terms of the technology used to produce the (R1 capable) model. Every Limited Edition was quite a bit of a surprise, the biggest one actually never saw the light of day;-(... My advice is, if one has enough pocket money, get them all, they are all well worth it, each one in a unique way! Best wishes, Zubi


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Terry, one thing I never understood is how these larger drivers fit under Aster's 1:22.5 bodywork. On the prototype the drivers are very closely spaced. LGB Mikado drivers in addition have large flanges. If you can scan the drawings of the prototype for me I'd be grateful! Or, better, just bring them to Tokyo the next time you come. And do not forget to take your WP&Y#73 with you;-)! Best, Zubi


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 20 Feb 2010 08:41 AM 
Terry, one thing I never understood is how these larger drivers fit under Aster's 1:22.5 bodywork. On the prototype the drivers are very closely spaced. LGB Mikado drivers in addition have large flanges. If you can scan the drawings of the prototype for me I'd be grateful! Or, better, just bring them to Tokyo the next time you come. And do not forget to take your WP&Y#73 with you;-)! Best, Zubi 
Afternoon, Zubi - I'll do that for you - better, I'll copy the drawings and send them to you if you'll just remind me of your address. Right now I'm struggling wit ha new super iMac that is going back whence it came as soon as I can offload it - it doesn't 'like' any of my imagery-related programmes, and sulks when I try and use something as simple as Sony's Net-Gear. Seems I wouod have to spend a couple of thousand $$$ more to get it to do just some of the things that my $750 lap-top does without thinking.

Gay will be coming out for a vacation in and around Tokyo and Kyoto later this year, but I won't be over again in the near future unless called for.

Best wishes from me and ig and the crows 

tac
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I certainly did not blame gearing. 
However, this was empirical in nature. 
We tested it, shell off, both ways. 

The 24V LONG Buehler seems to be a 24V unit, and substantially lower in rpm's than the 19V Pittman. 

Now, if we compare this to another 2-8-2 (and not a 2-4-0+0-4-2), that was claimed to be "right on" speed wise at what, 30MPH, then this one must have been doing about 4MPH. 

And, this drive is somewhat modified, in that the motor is on top of the gearbox and a cog belt used for interface. 

Makes it easier to check and replace.


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 20 Feb 2010 12:29 PM 
I certainly did not blame gearing. 
However, this was empirical in nature. 
We tested it, shell off, both ways. 

The 24V LONG Buehler seems to be a 24V unit, and substantially lower in rpm's than the 19V Pittman. 

Now, if we compare this to another 2-8-2 (and not a 2-4-0+0-4-2), that was claimed to be "right on" speed wise at what, 30MPH, then this one must have been doing about 4MPH. 

And, this drive is somewhat modified, in that the motor is on top of the gearbox and a cog belt used for interface. 

Makes it easier to check and replace. 

Hmmm, defnitly summat amiss there.

While my old pal Dzhon was round this afternoon we put my 73 on the track, put six Bachmann cars behind it - the usual consist - hooked up my Crest dual voltage/amperage power supply and TE, and with a calculator handy, cranked it up to full throttle and let her run steady for about an hour on my level track , just to even out the figures.

Dzhon measured the time around my 78 foot track ten times and averaged it out. The figure we came up with was 26.8 smph. It looked about right to me.

Best

tac
www.ovgrs,org


----------



## Chrisdy (Feb 17, 2010)

Posted By zubi on 20 Feb 2010 07:34 AM 
Chris, OK, I understand that you are looking for advice for someone else. I suggested changing the voltage regulating circuitry - if one is indeed bothered with the locomotive starting to move at too high voltage. But it may well be possible that this locomotive will work just fine when higher voltages are applied, perhaps up to 25Volt or even slightly more, although I would not advice exceeding 30V. I believe the owners of plastic Mikado's may be able to help and provide some advice here, as the drive used on the WP&Y#73 is identical to that used on the plastic, standard gauge Mikados and likely, the control electronics used is identical too. Zubi 
The main problem is that there is no way on the owners layout, without physically replacing the transformers, of getting any higher voltage. 20v is the max output, and since this is more than adequate for all his other locos the owner is not going to get a new 28v 10A transformer just for this loco. Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, because we are both still using analogue control, the changeover tracks (to change trains automatically out of sight of the main line) use automated soft start and stop Realroad modules. This means that the voltage to the track remains constant. All his other locos run at a 'proper' speed at about 14-15v. At this voltage No 73 is barely moving. Lastly, the owenr also has one of the standard Mikados and the powertrain on that does not seem to be the same at all. In fact, during his enquiries he was told that the Aster model does have a different drivetrain set-up compared to the standard model. Since we haven't taken the Aster model apart I can't say for certain how true that is, but the difference in running between the standard Mikado and the Aster model is enormous. Someone earlier mentioned that the plastic model is very much lighter than the brass model, but the standard Mikado has a very large lead weight in it, and just picking up both locos does not indicate a huge difference in weight. 

Whatever the reasons, it is clear that LGB did not cover themselves in glory with this limited edition version, and it obviously generates a lot of comment. Anyway, this particular No 73 is going back to the dealers on Tuesday (23 Feb) to become someone else's problem, so hopefully that will be the end of this particular saga. Thanks for all the comments.

Chris D


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chrisdy on 21 Feb 2010 04:48 PM 
[...] Lastly, the owenr also has one of the standard Mikados and the powertrain on that does not seem to be the same at all. In fact, during his enquiries he was told that the Aster model does have a different drivetrain set-up compared to the standard model. Since we haven't taken the Aster model apart I can't say for certain how true that is, but the difference in running between the standard Mikado and the Aster model is enormous. [...]



Chris, I think that this is not true at all. If anyone has any verifiable information, I would appreciate knowing what is so different between these drives. I just had a look a the diagrams for a standard gauge plastic Mikado and it looks quite like the one used on the WP&Y#73... http://www.champex-linden.de/download_lgb_explosionszeichnungen/24872p-1.pdf Best, Zubi


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 21 Feb 2010 07:30 PM 
Posted By Chrisdy on 21 Feb 2010 04:48 PM 
[...] Lastly, the owenr also has one of the standard Mikados and the powertrain on that does not seem to be the same at all. In fact, during his enquiries he was told that the Aster model does have a different drivetrain set-up compared to the standard model. Since we haven't taken the Aster model apart I can't say for certain how true that is, but the difference in running between the standard Mikado and the Aster model is enormous. [...]



Chris, I think that this is not true at all. If anyone has any verifiable information, I would appreciate knowing what is so different between these drives. I just had a look a the diagrams for a standard gauge plastic Mikado and it looks quite like the one used on the WP&Y#73... http://www.champex-linden.de/download_lgb_explosionszeichnungen/24872p-1.pdf Best, Zubi 
You're serious, right?
Are you just being difficult and argumentative to BE difficult and argumentative?

Please note:

I never mentioned gearing on this engine.

Maybe in your research you missed the fact that the plastic unit has the motor (small) hanging out the back...no?

Maybe you missed that the Aster has the (BIG) motor on TOP, with sprockets and cog belt?

That is part of the drive.

The motor appears to be a 24V motor.
LGB motors are not, especially since they drop 5V on the input, generally, and handle up to, what, 22V of input?

I tested this both ways, and the issue was, and is, the motor.
Fixed it, and no whacking high voltage power supply.

I also think the motor was a slow RPM motor, so 24V at a lower RPM than, say, a 19V Pittman.

It's a mess, with all the cutting done of the original (plastic) Mikado chassis.....and cutting out the rear truck mount completely, the "new" mount being the rear bottom screw (with a special plastic insert, that of course, was shattered).

You have to make parts, and use a flathead screw, into a countersunk washer over the new brass shoulder, or the dang screw head hits the top of the rail on a switch and STOPS the engine COLD.



I really hate getting involved in thread discussions with you.


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dear Curmee, at least you provide some info this time - many thanks for this! My memory indeed failed me in this case as I was focusing on the way the power was transferred between the articulated blocks, not on the motor and motor mount. The last time I have seen the WP&Y drives a couple of years ago they were without motors... If these motors are different, a stronger, lower rpm motor applied on the WP&Y#73, together with a possible ratio reduction on the belt, explains a lot in terms of low speed. But it does not explain why the engine appears (to Chris) to be underpowered, maybe it simply is not. Best, Zubi
PS this also entirely restores my faith in the LGB/Aster engineering teamwork as they applied a suitable motor for the task.


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 22 Feb 2010 03:18 AM 
Best, Zubi
PS this also entirely restores my faith in the LGB/Aster engineering teamwork as they applied a suitable motor for the task.
There ya go, Zubes.

Same gearing, same cases, same (apparently) electronics, they changed the motor to make it non-compatible with just about anything else, and your faith is restored?

Maybe the real hidden part is that everyone seems to report different results.

And "teamwork" out of the good old boys at the former LGB?

Really?

What are you smoking?


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe the real hidden part is that everyone seems to report different results. 

It just came to me: TOC runs battery r/c so his track is so dirty & slippery he needs to apply the 2-for-1 revolution to forward motion factor, whereas the track power guys with clean track are closer to 1:1.  

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ha ha ha! 

Seriously, it's actually the reverse, TOC gets excellent adhesion on his oxidized track, and I have slippery SS track and shiny wheels, basically I think he has almost twice the coefficient of friction that I do... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

OK.
Mine is hard-wired directly to the stock LGB motor. All the guts are gone. Even the headlight is a new LED. 

The motor sits on top and is belt driven down to the gearbox.
I am packing 14.4V in the tender with capabilities of packing whatever I want in a trailing battery car. (As long as I don't exceed the voltage limit on the Airwire board.)
It runs just fine at a nice speed.
What the ****--I don't have that disease called Lionel-itus! You know, warp factor 1 on the layout!









And BTW, the guts of the Aster are different than the guts of the LGB "Standard Gauge" Mike.
I have also converted one of those to Batt/RC.

jb


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I wouldn't make that comparison, as I don't have a plastic one here, and I won't trust memory. 
You can, as you have both. 

Others will try, to prove.....something.....without facts or items in hand to actually compare. 

Funny how that is, isn't it?


----------



## musolf.jr (Aug 9, 2012)

I have just found your articles about the LGB 21832 White pass #73 engine. I have one, and would like to replace the motor as you did. Could you please write me a little more detailed info on what and how you replaced the factory motor? Also, what exact motor did you use? Since the letter I found was written in 2010, how has the loco held up? I am a little confused about batteries. Did you convert this loco to barrery power, or is it still track power? Thanking you in advance, Harold Musolf, Jr. Seattle, WA. [email protected]


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Harold, TOC (The Old Curmudgeon) lives in Washington, you should email him, look at his web site: http://dnkgoods.home.mindspring.com/ 

Greg


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys: 

Possibly Barry's Big Trains could design a replacement drive, that would not flex under the weight of the brass model, if the owners contact him directly ? 


Norman


----------



## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi all, 

Matthias Manhart has some good information and pictures on his website. I've run it through Google translator for convenience. He, too, is looking to replace the motor. 

http://tinyurl.com/9vk3cp5 

Best regards, 
Bob


----------



## Manhart (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi all,

correct - i started to convert my 21832:

http://beathis.ch/lgb/21832/21832.html

My modifications:

- new MAXXON motor (double rotating speed and double power)
- new decoder ZIMO MX695
- new smoke unit from ZIMO with larger tank

I will enhance the description in the next few weeks.

Regards

Matthias


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm glad to see you posting here Matthias--your website has proven very helpful to me over the years... 

Regards, 
Keith


----------



## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Matthias, I always enjoy your modifications and review. Can't wait to see your upgrades in action. 

Alan


----------



## Manhart (Dec 27, 2007)

I added in a first step a table on my website for the clearance of the WP&YR No 73 (LGB 21832) in the classic LGB radius R1-R3:

http://beathis.ch/lgb/clearance/clearance.html

The site is in german, but the table is understandable.

I have to modify my garden railway in some places because of this engine.

Regards

Matthias


----------



## Manhart (Dec 27, 2007)

Hello,

i added the description to exchange the motor on my website:

http://beathis.ch/lgb/21832/21832.html#MotorX 

I installed a MAXON motor (on the picture above) with higher motor speed and higher torque. Details see in the table here:

http://beathis.ch/lgb/21832/21832.html#Motor 










The engine runs now much better with higher speed and more traction.










The Maxon motor is rather expensive, but the investment was a very good decision.

Regards

Matthias

http://www.beathis.ch


----------

