# LGB Track Short Circuit



## Morgar (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi,

Being new to LGB and this forum, I have designed a layout for my yard. With the help of the software, I discovered that there are two short circuits. I really like the layout and would like to resolve them. 

How would I go about resolving the problem? Any suggestions or commments would be appreciated!!

I do have a JPG file that I can share, but I can't seem to find how to upload it.

Best regards,

Michael O'Brien
Winterville, NC


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Do you have a reverse loop in the layout.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Plan A -- consult the LGB books and after-market literature, buy into insulated track joiners, diodes and other mysteries, and plan your layout to overcome the shorts. 

Plan B -- convert to battery power, ignore both short circuits and track connection issues. 

Plan C -- run live steam. (Now ask me about blocked jets ;{) 

Regards, Mike


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael

If you have you .jpg file located somewhere that is accessible across the Internet (e.g. PhotoBucket etc.) then you can create a link to point to that location.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Morgar on 27 Jul 2010 07:27 AM 
Hi,

Being new to LGB and this forum, I have designed a layout for my yard. With the help of the software, I discovered that there are two short circuits. I really like the layout and would like to resolve them. 

How would I go about resolving the problem? Any suggestions or commments would be appreciated!!

I do have a JPG file that I can share, but I can't seem to find how to upload it.

Best regards,

Michael O'Brien
Winterville, NC


If you can't upload the pic, send me the JPG and I'll upload it for you and have a look at it. Be sure to include a subject line so it doesn't get tossed with the spam. 
[email protected]


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## Morgar (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. I have a double reversing loop in the layout. 

Best regards, 
Michael O'Brien


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

You will get all kinds of answers here. But if you want to use track power, and don't want to build something, the easy solution would be a Massoth Reverse Loop Module.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are going to use track power, run a second track parallel to the track that connects the two loops. This will save you a lot of potential headaches. The reversing loops can be done, but you will need automatic switches, or at a minimum spring loaded switches. This is in addition to a circuit that changes the polarity of the tracks to prevent the shorts.

If you are running outside, my recommendation is to keep it simple -- add the extra track.


Chuck N


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## Morgar (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi, 

What is a Massoth Reverse Loop Module? How can I find something out about it? Is there a site, info I can search for? 

Best regards, 
Michael O'Brien


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## Morgar (Mar 1, 2010)

I have included a phot link below: 

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/morgar60/LGBTrackPlan1.jpg 

Best regards, 
Michael O'Brien


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This should get you their  massoth.de


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Well I guess that doesn't work. Just put Massoth Electronics in Google.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

* http://www.massoth.com/index.usa.html*

But I can't find it on the site... Massoth US is located in Georgia: 

*Massoth Electronics USA*
6585 Remington Drive, Suite 200
Cumming, GA 30040
USA

Phone +1 (770) 886-6670
Fax +1 (770) 889-6837 


Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Reversing loops don't work easily under DC (analog). Yes you can have 1 or 2 reversing loops in the layout in DC with the following restrictions:

- You can run only one engine!
- You can enter the loops only from the side (unless you want to spend too much money)
- Both loops are isolated to the connecting track
- you switch polarity on the connecting track - not the loops.

Reversing loop modules from any DCC manufacturer (e.g. ZIMO-carried by us, Massoth...) DO NOT WORK for analog applications! They only work for DCC layouts. So if you want to have multiple trains running, and don't want to have any restrictions and enjoy the automated operation you will have to consider DCC.

Here are some of the reasons for the above statements.

Any reversing loop creates a point where two different rail polarity meet each other. In analog switching the two tracks around will revert polarity and hence the direction of the engine that is on that section. Therefore you can only have one engine running. Secondly you must change the center track and keep the loops with constant polarity and than it works. Little track contacts (either magnetic, or optical) need to trigger relay for switching the track power in the center track as well as the switch setting (straight, thrown).

If you consider DCC, you should study first what is available in the market. Also within the reversing loop modules are huge differences. An independent study done by Gartenbahn Profi in Germany showed which reversing loop module was the best.

For more info just give me a call (508-529-9166)


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Axel, 
i can not agree. 
there are various ways to have more trains than one on a layout with two reverse loops (or wyes). 
there could be blocks inside the loops, so, that every incoming train triggers one, that was waiting inside the loop. 
or one can build a two track (or more) passing station in the middle, with the two track sections between this station and the two loops on opposing polarity. 

combining the two features one gets four automated trains.(or more with additional alternating sidings) 
if the line is long enough, there can be three or five (and so on...) passing stations on the mainline. 
all in simple analogue DC. steered by either reed contacts or railcontacts and some switches. 

(i did it with two stops in each loop and one station on the mainline) 


a "reversing loop module" in analogue consists of a couple of diodes plus one or two switches with two or four contacts. plus a handfull of aislators. 
.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Kormsen:

I agree that you can park engines/trains on sidings and they don't move while you are switching track power around and that you can construct a triggered operation to release one train, once another train stops, however, for me the operative word is Run at the same time.

I think no matter how many relays and electronic you throw at it you come up with something reliable. Of course theoretically I can make the reversing loop so large that two trains fit behind each other and run still with 1 minute distance of each other so the main track is cleared when train 1 returns to main and one minute later train 2 go to main and so on. But I think that is not the objective here.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 28 Jul 2010 02:39 PM 
Kormsen:

I agree that you can park engines/trains on sidings and they don't move while you are switching track power around and that you can construct a triggered operation to release one train, once another train stops, however, for me the operative word is Run at the same time.

I think no matter how many relays and electronic you throw at it you come up with something reliable. Of course theoretically I can make the reversing loop so large that two trains fit behind each other and run still with 1 minute distance of each other so the main track is cleared when train 1 returns to main and one minute later train 2 go to main and so on. But I think that is not the objective here.


Why would they not be able to run at the same time if you apply the proper electronics to make them maintain their spacing? That's easy. Do you mean run _independantly_ on the same block at the same time? That's fine for those engaged in operations, but really unnecessary for those who like to watch the trains run or even interact with each other.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Run at the same time: 

left loop - left main line - station - right main line - right loop.right and left mainline have always different polarity. 
either two trains run from both loops to the station, or two trains run from the station each to a loop. 
that would make two trains at the same time. 

if the loops are long enough for two trains each, the trains going to the loops trigger the trains on the first stations of the loops to go to the second stations in the loops. when they reach the first stations, they trigger the trains in the second loop-stations to run into the mainline to the central station. 

that would be four trains. 

if you want more trains moving simultanious, add more stations in the mainline. (has to be an odd number) 

up till here you can run everything with one, or better two switches for polarity change. for the turnouts there are no switches (switchmotors) needed. 

as you mentioned, one can add more trains, parked on sidings. 
any of the stations can get additional passing sidings. then a train running into siding one - and the one that waited on siding two goes on. (that would need an additional switch per additional siding) 

(where i wrote switch, i meant electrical switches, not turnouts or, as the english say, points) 

good planning, dozens of wires and off we go in analogue! 

just wait a couple of years (i'm a slow builder) till i present my finished new layout. 
there will be eight trains running in both directions on a two level "circle" with eight stations, eight blocks and nothing more to do for me, than switching main power on and off. 
(and everything what i will implement, was tested by me on former layouts)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"Reversing loops don't work easily under DC (analog)." 

Yes, and the complex explanations and setups from Korm prove that. 

EASILY is the key word in the phrase. Can it be done? Sure. Will it involve tons of relays and other mechanical devices. Yep. Will that be reliable? No thanks. 

If I was to do this, and did not take the easy way out (DCC and autoreversers) then I would contract with Todd to design my stuff. 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

"Reversing loops don't work easily under DC (analog)." 

Yes, and the complex explanations and setups from Korm prove that. 

seems, that even with my complex explanations i was not able, to make myself understood in english. 

for two trains, two loops and one station on the mainline one needs exactly zero relais, one doublethrow switch (like LGB turnout- or signal switch with add on or similar) and two to four (four only, if you wear belt and braces, like i do) either reed contacts or railcontacts. 

that is nothing, what i would call complicated. 
.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

sorry Korm! 

I re-read it and still seems as you said: "dozens of wires and off we go in analogue! " 

(complicated...) 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Jul 2010 02:44 PM 
sorry Korm! 

I re-read it and still seems as you said: "dozens of wires and off we go in analogue! " 

(complicated...) 

Regards, Greg 

It's such a shame/pity that people can't/won't follow a diagram no more complicated than a road map.









People could do so much more, so simply and cheaply using simple, readily available surplus parts with analog control. And I've no idea why the stigma to using relays. Most of the manufactures also use them in one capacity or another.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd: 

You quoted me above, but I already posted: 

"If I was to do this, and did not take the easy way out (DCC and autoreversers) then I would contract with Todd to design my stuff. " 

Um... so why are you picking on me? Want to clarify? 

Greg 

and your wiring and relays are still more complex than an autoreverser and it's connections...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Jul 2010 04:38 PM 
Todd: 

You quoted me above, but I already posted: 

"If I was to do this, and did not take the easy way out (DCC and autoreversers) then I would contract with Todd to design my stuff. " 

Um... so why are you picking on me? Want to clarify? 

Greg 

and your wiring and relays are still more complex than an autoreverser and it's connections... 

Sorry, not trying to pick on you.

I'm basically _*agreeing with you*_ that people think this is too complicated as soon as they hear wires/relays so won't try it and that breaks my heart.

My wiring may _seem_ more complicated, but that's only because its external and has to be done. You don't have to do the actual wiring of the circuit boards in DCC. If people had to build their own circuits, or even just mount the components on a PC board, you can bet almost all of the railroads would be simple track-powered analog, probably with a big reostat.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good, was not quite getting it, since you quoted me. 

The solutions you show use a consistent logic and basically a "Standard" relay. If you get the ones that plug into a socket, anyone concerned with relay problems can just pull one out and swap it. 

I would say that while more physical wires are involved, the circuits might prove to be more robust than microprocessor powered logic circuits. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Actually, I have my two reversing for 5 years now outdoors and no problems. I will report back in 20 years and will see if any problems occurred.

And in my humble opinion, whether it is Relays, Reed Switches, EPL supplementary switches or whatever other mechanism it is, a electric switching device is needed because you need to revert the track power. And a mile of cables not to forget. Now let us assume you have a growing layout and 2 years into the hobby you decide to build two reversing loops, you are "screwed". Now you have to dig up somehow, somewhere for all the cables to run (unless of course you take advantage of this opportunity and nail them up to scale telegraph poles







).

Not to forget all the switches if you want to also control them manually. bring all the wiring back to a central place (unless of course you enjoy manual ground throws).

With DCC it doesn't matter what extensions I come up with - years down the line. My control circuits run wires only to the next rail-clamp. 

But I believe this is a religious type subject matter (just like battery power over track power over DCC) or (which track to pick).

I rather try to approach this from a more logical point of view. Each system has is range of applicability. Can I come up with solutions to extend the range of one system over the other - sure - always. But in my point of view especially when you are a beginner here are my suggestions:

1. Define what you want to do now
2. Now close your eyes and dream (where do you want to take it if you like it?)

If the answer to 1 + 2 is 1,2,3 concentric circles, no switches that leaves you with 
a. Analog track power, with three transformers
b. Analog track power with one large transformer and some form of remote control (e.g. Revolution)
c. Battery Power with some form of remote control
d. Live steam

If the answer is all circles are interconnected via switches, simultaneous operation
a. Analog track power with some form of remote control
b. Battery power with some form of remote control, but already facing the limitation that the switches need somehow be powered, depending on the implementation you may have crossed the line of viable Battery power (And yes I don't consider running air hoses through the garden a convenient option and don't I have to power the control valves anyhow?)
c. Live Steam with either hand operated ground throws or similar considerations as in b.
d. DCC, with no upwards limitation (especially if you are wavering in your dreams, i.e. if you go potentially bigger)

And if 1 +2 are answered that you definitely have a point-to-point line 2 -3 stations, some automated train operation possibly with manual interaction, reversing loops, other controllable features:
a. DCC
b. everything else is a compromise

There are stages in between the three I have listed, and some additional IF-ESLE loops that the decision diagram can have, but this is probably a pretty good start.

So pick a good start to familiarize yourself with the hobby (unless you are 100% certain what you are going to do) and by a universal power supply (e.g Meanwell 15A) and attach controllers to it. This power supply can feed easily three concentric circles, it can feed many track power applications and can be the feeder of any DCC system down the line. Worst case you overbought if you are going to Battery Power.

Now lets go out and play with trains. I am going today to a nice layout in CT.

And maybe I see some of you in Tacoma next week. That would be great.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If you insist on haveing the reverse loops and just DC then just face the issues of lots of wiring and relays ETC. If I where indoors no problem but I hate running a bunch of wires out doors. I choose the easy way out and use DCC and have two reversing loops and no extra wiring. Later RJD


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 31 Jul 2010 07:03 AM 

And in my humble opinion, whether it is Relays, Reed Switches, EPL supplementary switches or whatever other mechanism it is, a electric switching device is needed because you need to revert the track power. And a mile of cables not to forget. Now let us assume you have a growing layout and 2 years into the hobby you decide to build two reversing loops, you are "screwed". Now you have to dig up somehow, somewhere for all the cables to run (unless of course you take advantage of this opportunity and nail them up to scale telegraph poles







).



It's a simple matter to place them in the ballast under the rails, even years later. I certainly did.









Even a couple hundred feet of 16 gauge direct burial cable and a few surplus relays are far cheaper than the cheapest electronic do-dad for any other form of power.


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

Zim Zala Bim - Appear !










Andrew


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The simple answer to reverse loops in DC boils down to the fact that going through the loop turns the engine around and when it exits the loop, the voltage has to be reversed on the main line to keep the engine running in the same direction. If you feed each reverse loop with its own power lines and the main line between them with a separate power, you can manually do the reversing. You do need to isolate both rails going into the switches from the main. If you forget to switch the mainline to match the direction of the engine as it exits the loop, it will cause a short circuit and stop. The short is kind of hard on the track and the wheels in addition to causing the circuit breaker to operate, but if the engines are not heavy power hogs you can put a light bulb in series with the power and they will light up when a short circuit happens, limiting the current to a safe level. 

Making it automatic is a bit more difficult but can be solved in a number of ways. The Massoth reverser does have a information in its manual on how to use it with DC. 

Another solution is to run a "third rail", which is what the old Lionel trains had ... reverse loops were very simple and there weren't any shorts. Another option for a third rail, which is more appropriate for Large Scale, is overhead traction, i.e. trolley cars. These require no reverse loop management and work with DC, AC, or DCC. Of course there is the maintenance of the overhead wires, but that is a different topic. 

The reason that DCC is easy to implement is that it is an AC waveform that can be reversed, almost instantaneously, without changing the direction of the engine. There are a number of solutions for implementing this, often by detecting that the sections of track are occupied or detecting a short circuit as the engine traverses the switch back onto the mainline and quickly switching the direction of the power. 

Tom


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Sorry - I'm a bit late to the party.

But for analog reversing loops you can either adapt the diagram from Maarten's website - 











or buy the buy the new Massoth reverse loop module which does work in analogue as well as with DCC - handy if one moves to DCC later.


Knut


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