# Mainline: wire, cutting costs and corners, and easier ways to do it.



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

The mainline of the MIRR will surround most of my backyard with four corners of 15' curves and two 8' curves to give it nearly the same shape as the State of Utah just to keep it going around my deck and against my home. I'll have a 40' straight to lay down and I'm determined to try and make it straight as an arrow. I'd like it to be so straight when the experts arrive and look at that straight, they'll say "WOW." I've only dug about 30' against the deck so far and want to run wire under the track all the way around because I'm not ready for battery power yet and I want to keep both options open. My question: Is there a source for used wire where I could get it for free? I have one dumpster diving friend who has been able to supply some of what I need but not the 14-2 or 16-2 buriable (ROMEX?) for rail power. I'm on long term disability from the Crime Lab here in town and the maximum time I can spend working on my MIRR is about 30 minutes before I must return to the couch or the hammock after I put it up. 

Also, if anyone has any better was to do things at this point to make doing things easier, let me know.

I plan to use RR Concepts controllers on all my sidings but will also add switches so I can also operate everything manually. I will use the 16000 series LGB switches. 

I want to get things done, and make certain it's all done right the first time so I won't have to do anything over again. You help will be greatly appreciated.


Still unable to figure out how to add photos, so here it is in Photobucket. The mainline is red, the one running around the tracks in the center. All the tracks in the middle have already been built. None of the sidings on the bottom will be built now. They will be added later. The three or possible four sidings on top will be built with the mainline.

The track running around the 13' pond will be O scale 6' curves so I can also run my Lionel/MTH/Williams, etc. 

http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/D...=3&o=1


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Make friends with someone in construction, but your problem will be soldering pieces of wire together to make longer ones. 

You will have a hard time finding the buriable wire... maybe you can find some plastic sprinkler pipe to use as conduit and then splice some wire to make the lengths you need. 

You will still need solder and electrical tape... 

I dunno... not the kind of thing you want to not do well, the power and track is the foundation of your layout. 

Greg


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I would try to maintain 10' minimum curves.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What is the size of the grid squares on your picture? 

Your inner "cloverleaf" is VERY tight, and looks like it also goes up and over itself. You will only be able to run small engines and very few cars. 

Greg


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Festus, 
Used wire does not fit this concept: "I want to get things done, and make certain it's all done right the first time so I won't have to do anything over again." 

All the discount wire in my area has already been stolen... er 'recylcled' I imagine the uninstallers don't care about the product and it is stretched, yanked and pulled until it breaks. Old house wiring was often a cloth insulator under a nailed staple, tight enough to crimp a wire ... 

Your best bet may be to contact a wire installer and offer to buy his partial spools. They really don't like splices in long runs. 

Greg; I think the clover is flat the crossings are common angles... he can sit in the hot tub and watch the A Mazing Show! 

Happy Rails 

John


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Festus on 02 May 2013 06:30 PM 
My question: Is there a source for used wire where I could get it for free? 


Sounds like a request of the MLS group too.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I used #12 Malibu underground lighting cable for my layout (when I had one). It's designed to be buried. The problem is still the splices, in this case where you splice in the feeders. The little Malibu "splice clamps" used with their lights won't handle the current necessary as they're designed for less than an amp. Whatever else you do, make damn sure the splice is WATERPROOF!!! Otherwise the water will react with the copper wire and corrode it away over time. You can waterproof your splices with silicon caulk before taping them up. Just make sure the splice is covered in silicon COMPLETELY - no exposed bare sections or pinholes in the caulk or wire insulation. Cover the splice AND the insulation for at least 1/2" - 1" from the splice.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They make very cool (and ugly) epoxy filled "molds" for splices... 3m: 

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...rial-Products-Catalog/Splices?N=5427053&rt=c3 

Used them on my landscape wiring, not one failure in 15 years. 

Greg


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

The inner 4 leaf clover with the crossing and surrounding track is all done in 4' curves and 5' curves and will be limited to the set size locos and cars. I have the 4 cloverleafs up and running. It's ll about 14" off the ground. I love the look of the set size stuff going around and will automate it soon so two or three trains will take turns going around. I have lots of set size stuff, too much maybe, but I also have lots of the big stuff, including Aristo-Crafts 2-8-8-2 Mallet and that's why I'm so impatient to get it down. 

On the down side, I have a row of perhaps 12 rose bushes and in the old days, before I was stricken, I could weed them all and still have enough energy to do lots more. Now, I get two done and it's a real challenge to get that 3rd one done too so perhaps this garden railroading dream of mine is just that, unless I find a hardworking volunteer to do the digging. Once done, I can finally sit and relax, watch the fish, the hummingbirds, the trains, our pet garter snake Snicker, etc. That's my goal. 

Sounds like I just need to watch for sales on wire and buy it as I go. 

In the Crime Lab, I had 5 years worth of taking photos of the damage left by those who steal copper, including what they'd find at the recyclers. Do they resell at reasonable prices? But I wouldn't trust it to be in good shape either. I'm in the wrong hobby perhaps. Even as a kid I'd talk my mom into letting me set up my 027 Lionel track on the living room floor for a day but the setting up and tearing down nearly made it not worth the while.


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

The grid is one foot squares.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a thought after reading this thread a few times. It's doubtful you can buy such basic commodities as copper cheaper unless you can melt it down and make it back into wire. 

But you can save significant $$ by making your own controllers and not spending all that money on RR concepts pre-built electronics... Todd here on the site has always been more than willing to design control systems using relays for people here on the forum. There's where you can save money but not affect quality and reliability. 

Greg


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

Sounds like I'll pick on Todd for awhile.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Festus on 04 May 2013 02:50 PM 
Sounds like I'll pick on Todd for awhile. 

I've got a partial wooden spool of 10 conductor, 18 gauge irrigation cable for sprinklers, yours for the taking. Just come and get it. 
Todd


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, I'm sure you saw my post, but maybe you could help Festus who needs to save money, but he wants some automation in his system. 

I think your techniques would be a perfect fit for his requirements. 

Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Just tell me what you want to do Festus and we'll work it out.


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 04 May 2013 04:44 PM 
Posted By Festus on 04 May 2013 02:50 PM 
Sounds like I'll pick on Todd for awhile. 

I've got a partial wooden spool of 10 conductor, 18 gauge irrigation cable for sprinklers, yours for the taking.  Just come and get it.  
Todd 



For controlling switches, I assume the 18ga works. But how much smaller can you go? 20, 22?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

like all the other discussions we have had on wire, depends on the length of the wire run and the current involved. 

Greg


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Say roughly 150 ft to furthest one. Using the LGB switch motors and controlling with loco link. The reason I'm asking is some the runs are in smaller 1/2" pex like gas tubing (had plenty left over).


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

I really don't know for sure what I need. At this point I'll settle for enough wire to get the mainline power taken care of. However, I also need to lay the wire for switch control and any lights, etc. I plan on adding eventually and it all needs to go under the track as it gets put down. I have 18-7 wire and some 14-2 wire that stretches from the garage (lower right-hand corner) to the far edge of the deck, which on the map is along the bottom and near the lower left-hand corner, so it goes about 30' and I'll need enough to get around the rest of the way. I don't want anyone to spend a lot of money to get wire out here (SLC, Utah), I'll just try to find more 18-7 sprinkler wire and hope that will do it. Two wires for each switch, right? and two for the rails to attach every 10' or so, and wires between the switches if I want to control both ends, plus wires to light up and run the scenery. No one has ever shown me how to wire it all, but I've thought about simplifying things (removing a few switches) just to be sure it's done right the first time. I think I can figure out how to wire the track power and the switch control power but once I get them all back to where ever they'll go so I can switch between automatic control and manual control, I'll get lost. My dumpster diver may bee able to handle my entire wire order, and if I hint that I want wire for my birthday................who knows?


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I just use wirenuts, and do not seal them, bury them....been 8 years so far and no faliures yet...just use the wirenuts they use for inside wiring...make sure there is a little slak on all joints then IF there is a faliure, you just snip and twist again for another 10-15 years or longer.....I do this for all my Malibu lights, and some have been out longer....that junk they give you with the kits to make the connections with those falty spikes have been an ongoing problem till I got rid of all of them!!!!!!!

Now all I have are is wirenuts buried in the ground...you can seal them with silicon...but why I have no problrm!

IMHO

Bubba


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Use a common ground and save almost half the wire by using one of your rails as the wire. Just be sure to jumper your rails with soldered jumpers.

For example, all 21 of my turnouts use just 1 wire to the control panel and just a little short section of wire soldered to the rail located right next to it. All 23 block sections use one wire to the panel and the common ground rail serves as the other, regardless of which of the three Train Enginers is controlling that block at that moment or which direction the trains are traveling (with 7 trains at once traveling in different directions relative to each other).

The only caveat is that each power supply must have its own "wall plug." So you can't use the a/c tap for the turnouts from the same power supply that you use to run a train even though both taps may be provided on the back of the power supply's case.

All 7 of these routes share a rail, simultaneously with trains going in both directions. That same rail carries half the power for the 21 turnouts and the buildings' lighting with that transformer located in the garage.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, with common rail, how do you reverse just one block? Do the trains running in the opposite direction have the polarity of the motors reversed? Or do you have multiple independent power supplies? 

Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 May 2013 08:05 AM 
Todd, with common rail, how do you reverse just one block? Do the trains running in the opposite direction have the polarity of the motors reversed? Or do you have multiple independent power supplies? 

Greg 

There is a separate reverser for each of the 3 TEs, placed between the TE and the panel (within the panel) than can be engaged. So it is a simple matter to just engage a reverser and it will apply to any blocks that are assigned to that TE. If all of the blocks between two opposing spurs are set to that TE, they all work, and reverse, together. If the spurs have diode protection, the engines will not run off the ends of the track, but sit and wait until the current reverses.

To run a train backward through several blocks where another train will run forward (i.e., the leap frog that runs trains around the perimeter), I put a switch in the engine that reverses its power (including the lighting) relative to the other engines. IIRC, Bachmann calls this an "NMRA switch." My leap frog section has reed switches at both ends, on both tracks, and I can select the appropriate reed depending on the direction that I want the trains to travel by flipping a switch located in the adjacent bird house.

This shows the insides of my leap frog circuit as well as the slow/stop circuit for the adjacent service area to accomodate diesels (D) and steam (S), causing the trains to stop either at the diesel tank (D) or water tower (S).


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Todd.... I was racking my brain for any other explanation than the ones I guessed.... I wonder if you had started later, you would have just gone DCC or some other remote system to obviate the need to have a reversing switch in a loco? 

Your system is certainly straightforward, and except for the reverse switch allows a lot of control with "stock" locos. Inexpensive and effective. 

Thanks again, 

Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 May 2013 01:34 PM 
Thanks Todd.... I was racking my brain for any other explanation than the ones I guessed.... I wonder if you had started later, you would have just gone DCC or some other remote system to obviate the need to have a reversing switch in a loco? 

Your system is certainly straightforward, and except for the reverse switch allows a lot of control with "stock" locos. Inexpensive and effective. 

Thanks again, 

Greg 

No, I would have done it the same way "old school." The cost of a switch in an engine is a very small price to pay compared to the cost of dcc or any other form of control let alone the additional complications that come with that form of control.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

not really with cheap decoders about $35 each I think you could beat your relay costs.... 

But this is not to debate the issue.... 

Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 May 2013 12:16 AM 
not really with cheap decoders about $35 each I think you could beat your relay costs.... 

But this is not to debate the issue.... 

Greg 

Not to debate the issue, but...

The relays are already on the layout and the same few relays are used for _all of my engines_ and the 6 volt, 4pdt relays shown in the photo were purchased years ago at a cost of $0.60 each in a quantity of 20. To reverse an engine really does come down to the cost of a toggle switch to mount in the engine. I would bet dollars to donuts that I can reach down and flip that toggle switch faster than you can reprogram the engine to run the other direction, relative to the other engines, under DCC control.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right, I meant from the beginning, before there were relays.... ;-) 

Interesting, what use do you have for relays in your engines? Or did I read that sentence wrong, meaning that the relays on the layout are used for the engines, i.e. control them? 

I know you got a great deal on the relays, did not realize they were 60 cents each... sure can't beat that with anything else at current prices... 

At "normal" prices wouldn't these be about $5 each or so? (just curious, did not look at the specs on the relays, coil current, hold voltage, contact rating) 

Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 May 2013 01:22 PM 
Right, I meant from the beginning, before there were relays.... ;-) 

Interesting, what use do you have for relays in your engines? Or did I read that sentence wrong, meaning that the relays on the layout are used for the engines, i.e. control them? 

I know you got a great deal on the relays, did not realize they were 60 cents each... sure can't beat that with anything else at current prices... 

At "normal" prices wouldn't these be about $5 each or so? (just curious, did not look at the specs on the relays, coil current, hold voltage, contact rating) 

Greg 

Except under certain circumstances (e.g., sound activation), I don't use relays in the engines. They are used at various places on the layout and in the control panel.

But I thought that you were trying to compare the cost of a few relays to $35/engine for a dcc module to put in an engine. But that still wouldn't accomplish the purposes of a reversing circuit, leap frog, slow down, etc. and those woud still require additional stuff that further up the cost maybe even more so for dcc applications.

Between surplus and ebay, the current cost of relays is all over the map and the ones I use could be on the order of $2-$5 each. New relays in blister packs at the electronics store are just outrageous now.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually I assumed the relays cost more, like 6-10 bucks... and with DCC, the "logic" of leap frog, slow down, etc. is FREE... free software interfaced to your DCC system. And the ability to radically change the program. 

The only cost would be detection circuits for train location, and they are getting pretty cheap. About $6 per block for detection, about the same in today's dollars as a single relay, and I see your "box" has 4 relays, plus components plus time to build. 

Therefore I think I could build the track and control system CHEAPER today than you could, the additional cost is one time DCC system, an old pc, and $35 per loco.... so that basic analysis was the basis of "if you started today" the costs would not be much different. 

But you have what you want and have clearly done it inexpensively. Also your cost per additional loco is effectively zero... and you can run unmodified locos. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 May 2013 02:25 PM 
Actually I assumed the relays cost more, like 6-10 bucks... and with DCC, the "logic" of leap frog, slow down, etc. is FREE... free software interfaced to your DCC system. And the ability to radically change the program. 

Regards, Greg 





The logic may be free, but not its implementation. What about the logic and expense (i.e., the relays) that throw the two turnouts? When a train returns to the station, what tells the other train to leave?

I could have cut the relay count using a latching relay, but not at $1.20 for the pair of 4pdts. But even in today's market, you can get 4pdt relays rated at 5 amps for ~$2 each. 5 amps is plenty for a leap frog and is what I use on mine. Even 1 amp relays could have been used for everything except the blocks that feed the train motors. More amps would only be a couple dollars more and we're only taking two relays. With 4 poles you can often "double up" to increase capacity.

$2 Relays


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh... forgot your "boxes" also control the turnouts. Since my turnouts are already remote controlled, if I "automated" then automating them is free. 

Sorry, yes that does tip the balance, but it now becomes apples and oranges, since you've made the logic hardwired, and the DCC system would be free to do what it wanted, like only have the 3rd train take the siding, only the 10th train stop at the station. 

Probably further comparison goes even further to apples and oranges, because at this juncture, one person could say "my base layout" has remote controlled switches already, so automating is free, and another could logically reason well, I'm going from all manual to automated, so there is indeed an extra cost to automate the switches and my relays are clearly less expensive. 

Cool, I think the comparison has to pretty much end here. 

You know I respect all that you have done with relay logic and actually would like to come see your system in operation some time. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

When people come look at the railroad, they love to see the automation. They really don't care that every 10th train by-passes the station and they are typically not there long enough to see that anyway. Heck, they'd be asking me why the change-over didn't occur.









I'll be doing Open House Sunday, June 9th for the OCGRS meeting at 1:00 PM. This is a potluck luncheon and guests are always welcome. I'm also doing Open House on Aug 30-31 for the 33rd National Narrow Gauge Convention from 12:00 - 5:00 PM. I don't know where you are down in SD, but I make the trip in 1.25 - 1.5 hrs.

BTW, my turnouts are also controlled either individually or through a diode matrix in the panel (as many as 20 at once) and the leap frog simply piggybacks right on top of that to throw those two turnouts when desired.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 May 2013 07:59 AM 
Ahh... forgot your "boxes" also control the turnouts. Since my turnouts are already remote controlled, if I "automated" then automating them is free. 

Regards, Greg 

OK Greg, now you've got me scratching my head.

Exactly how would one do a "leap frog" in dcc without any other form of detection (e.g., reed switch) for the turnouts?

Obviously, the detection circuit cannot throw the turnout as soon as an engine is detected in the siding block because you still have railcars out on the line that would be fouled.

Would you have to program a delay into the turnouts? Would you use small detection blocks or devices, one on each siding placed toward the ends of the sidings and if so, wouldn't these have to be selectable, even if through programming, so you could go either direction without hanging over?

Gives me a headache just thinking about it.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't know what precisely you mean by "leap frog" but all you need is to sense where the train is... 

I addressed this in my post: 

08 May 2013 02:25 PM 
Actually I assumed the relays cost more, like 6-10 bucks... and with DCC, the "logic" of leap frog, slow down, etc. is FREE... free software interfaced to your DCC system. And the ability to radically change the program. 

The only cost would be detection circuits for train location, and they are getting pretty cheap. About $6 per block for detection, about the same in today's dollars as a single relay, and I see your "box" has 4 relays, plus components plus time to build. 

There's a ton of different ways to implement, detection at a point where you know the train is clear of the last switch, or detect just before the switch and throw it just in time, slow and stop the train, throw the switch and proceed... have detection at each end of a "block" for different length or very long trains... do transponding a la digitrax and know precisely where the loco is and where the caboose is... tons of possibilities... 

Like I said doing it DCC and using various means of detection and a program is quite a bit more powerful, flexible, and capable. Once you move from hardwired logic to a computer program, kind of when we moved from diode logic to programmable logic. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 May 2013 04:21 PM 
I don't know what precisely you mean by "leap frog" but all you need is to sense where the train is... 

Regards, Greg 

Leap Frog = First train sitting at the station. Second train comes into the station and stops. The turnouts throw to align the siding and the first train starts up and leaves the station. When it comes back it around, it parks where it was, the turnouts throw, and the second train is again released, etc.

So in dcc when second train comes in, the system must be programmed so that the second train is detected, slows to a stop, the two turnouts throw, and the first train is alerted to leave..., etc. So can this all done using the most basic dcc and programmed on the hand unit, or does it require a computer/interfaces and who's knows what CV values? Can you do it all for under $25 with the only additional cost per engine only being a magnet?

If you'll remember, it was you who asked me if I would do it the same if I did it again and I said yes simply on a cost basis. But I also prefer the simplicity so that I can mingle with guests rather than deal with trains. I'm just illustrating one reason why.

After all, isn't the whole point of this thread ways to cut costs??? Some of us have no interest in a Ferrari, it's inflated price tag, and it's outrageous maintenance and insurance costs and are perfectly happy driving our Corvettes.

Leap frog Shown at 37 Seconds In.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gosh Todd, we've really taken this off on a tangent, and I apologize to the OP, I should not have done this. 

And I can see that now, the debate has changed from capability and perhaps doing it differently to a war of dollars and cents. 

And now you are lecturing me on programming and DCC.... (just go read about DCC and JMRI and the other softwares if you really want to know, but I know you don't) 

No Todd, I cannot make a Ferrari for 5 bucks... but I don't want to drive a Yugo either. 

I'm not playing anymore, you don't want to explore options, you want to argue.... I was interesting in exactly what I asked, would you do it differently and I think you could do it for about the same or even less. 

If your only goal seems to be to argue, rather than explore new ideas, why should I be your punching bag? 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jemurrer (May 7, 2013)

If you are looking at a way of protecting the buried wire. A friend of mine usedgarden hosesand ran the wires inside of them. You can add T's or Y's at switches and were you wnat to power the track. Were the wires split off there are caps that can be screwed on to the ends of the hose, drilled to allow the wire threw, then siliconed to seal the hole. 
Just a note when fishing the original wires through add an extra piece of string with them incase you want to run more wires later. Good Luck.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very clever idea using a garden hose, although once the wires were in and it was buried, I would guess you could not pull more wires through. 

But cheap protection... although is a garden hose cheaper than electrical conduit? 

Greg


----------



## jemurrer (May 7, 2013)

When you pull the wires through also pull a string with them, and each time you pull more through. When you need to add more wires, you use the string to pull them.

Garden hose really isn't that expesive from places like wally world or places like that.

Plus they are extremely flexible. you could use them when you late out were you want your track to run before you bury them also.


----------

