# Automated Water Level System



## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

It seems many have tried to come up with a system to maintain the water level in the boiler

If a compact, non intrusive, system , with failsafe, that would control bypass valve and other methods of water filling were available would anyone be interested? Price around $180?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Need more details to commit to this idea.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pog, 
Personally, it does not interest me at all. 
I like the challenge to 'drive' my locos, and checking and keeping the water level in the boiler correct, to me is part of it. 
I really get bored running non stop all the time and like to stop at stations and pump more water into the boiler. 
The newer locos that I have with axle pumps are fine, but I find that it makes me lazy. 
If you 'automate' the water level detection and drive a pump to keep the water level constant, you might as well have an electric loco! 
Well, not really, but you get my idea. 
Now, I am sure that many will jump at your idea, and I wish you 'good luck' in the endeavour, but I will not be ordering one. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill Ford (BFIndustries) made a WLDS (Water Level Detection System) several years ago. Then again a few years ago made another run of boards so more people buy them. The system could either use just RED and GREEN LEDs to indicate insufficient and sufficient (respectively) water levels in the boiler, or it could control either a solenoid valve used in place of the bypass valve or run a servo motor to drive a small pump to add water to the boiler. 

I don't know if he still has them available or not. 

There was also at least one design in "Steam in the Garden" magazine for "rolling your own".


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback 
The idea is not to do away with the "hands on" approach, but to augment it with the option of automated water feed. 

I have seen the WLDS system, but it was too intrusive. Min. water level indicators aren't much use. I am looking at a system that doesn't need to tap into the boiler, or install a pump, 
or indeed involve any permanent mods. It is based on site glass sensor, with the ability to set max/min water level, and a solenoid attached to bypass valve, all 
removable. Based on low voltage, and able to take the small amount of power from RC batteries if fitted. 

Thanks again


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Forgot to mention that there would be a system for those without axle pumps, and several options such as tender water level 
warning. Again, not to detract from hands on approach, but if it saves one boiler from going pop.. well... 

Mike


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with David here that part of the pleasure of live steam is the hands on experience. Having said that, I am fascinated by the idea of getting real time telemetry from an engine while it is running. I've been playing with a variety of sensors to log boiler pressure, draw bar pull and speed but haven'had the time to pull these together into an integrated solution. If anyone has any experience here, I love to hear about it.

Robert


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike

"It is based on site glass sensor, with the ability to set max/min water level"

How will the system overcome poor sight glass reading (false-+/-) that we all encounter based on the design and/or placement of the sight glass?


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Thanks again for feedback... not seeming popular so far! 

Charles, it works on a slit light source down one side of the sight glass, and an angled sensor on the other side. Refraction does the rest. 
Parts of the glass is still visible. The extent of the light slit be adjusted to set your min/max. Can't give it all away.....


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1879047

not quite a water leveling system unless you add a sensor and solenoid!

Manfred


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

latest read from bill http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1615354

Manfred


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm definitely not a live steam expert, but I read all the posts here and several other forums. 

The sight glass is often not a perfect indicator of water level, and can also vary with grade, and can be affected by the interior of the glass tube 

Can you make this a reliable system with the added onus of optical detection? 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 26 Jul 2013 06:53 PM 
I'm definitely not a live steam expert, but I read all the posts here and several other forums. 

The sight glass is often not a perfect indicator of water level, and can also vary with grade, and can be affected by the interior of the glass tube 

Can you make this a reliable system with the added onus of optical detection? 

Greg Greg,

I don't consider myself to be a live steam expert, but I have run large scale (1/8th scale) live steam locomotives for over 35 years. Your statement above is EXACTLY what I would have said!! Thank you.







Short, sweet and to the point.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Talk of WLDS been going on for at least 10+ years. 
My brain dump (David Leech style) 

Why? I want it, I need it, I know I can build the perfect design... 
Detection? Lo only or Hi & Lo water level. Personal opinion, Single Probe is a waste of time.
Sensor / Detection: water glass, boiler probe w/bushing(s) (one spit in distilled boiler water for conductivity) 
Pump; Axel or Servo (servo problem - power to overcome boiler pressure, easy to burn out big/powerful servos) 
(see Regner below.) 

Steam Driven water pump. Very Cool but drains steam pressure (2 or 3 designs (?)Youtube videos(?). Expensive. 
Regner single cylinder model $625. I've seen 2 Cylinder models for $1000+ 
Search archives here for WLDS. Some w/video 

UK G1 Model Railroad Association (G!MRA) periodically pops up for discussion; variety of electronics and probe designs. 
Variety of articles in G1MRA Newsletter & Journal (NL&J) 
On G1MRA Yahoo Forum (design docs/fotos on forum Files and Photo pages.) Forum G1MRA members only. 

Steam in the Garden; I believe has also published 1 or 2 articles. MNight look through the SitG article index online. 
http://www.steamup.com/ 

Regner (Germany) sells two servo drive pumps of diff water volume. ($130, $160). 
R/C servo controlled (supply your own detection device) 

Regner sells a single cylinder steam driven pump. ($625) 
The Train Dept, Jason Kovac, Regner dealer http://www.thetraindepartment.com/water-pumps/ 


Used to have a hankering for one. It was a phase a lot of us seem to have gone through. 
Eventually becomes more complicated and trouble than it's worth. 

Much better investment of time and energy; 
1. Add an Axle Pump 
2. Add water glass blow down valve making the water glass a reliable indicator. 
(Even if you add WLDS with Water Glass & water level detection you still have fix it so readings reliable.) 


That's all I can possibly remember.


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Hi guys 
Good to spark a small debate... 

And to Greg and Gary I would say that for a lot of the time the sight glass is the way we monitor water levels and your comments 
re the reliability of system with the onus of optical detection I would address with my use of coherent light, and I don't believe anyone has done this. 

Monitoring not be continuous as this will cause the system to "hunt", so a periodic reading is the way. 

Interesting thought of optional incorporation of the blowdown valve.... 

Anyway.... if the working system were available would anyone buy? 
Thanks guys (and gals) 

Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No debate, just questions and answers hopefully. 

Periodic might not be the answer, because of just statistics... I would think a moving average is the ticket... it should give you the best chance of throwing out the "flyers" as data analysis people will say. 

But still getting a sight glass to work well in the first place... although that is sort of "not your problem" 

coherent light means laser to me... cool... definitely if you want to use refraction, then coherent light makes a lot of sense. 

I'd say that it depends on cost, but non-invasive and works well is worth a few extra $$ in my opinion. 

Greg


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a thought.........a large number of locomotives sold in the the last 5-6 years have neither sight glasses or water pumps, and these are normally the smaller boiler engines that require the most attention to water in the boiler.


Larry


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Greg 

Off topic 

How do you rate Romeo Y Julieta ? 

Love em 

Mike


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

it works on a slit light source down one side of the sight glass 
Pog - I think you missed Charles' point. Sight glasses are notoriously unreliable and do not show the level accurately. (I suspect that is one problem Bill's WLDS was designed to solve!)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Romeo y Julietta, Cuban or non-cuban... the non-cubans are ok, age them about 5 months or more. Got some nice pyramids recently and after about 4 months they came alive. The cubans are great, although watch the "tubos". They have made some awesome cigars in both manufacturers (yes the non-cubans are made by a different company like Cohiba and other "original" Cuban brands)

You must have visited my Cigar pages... 

I still have a 1/2 Jar of these: http://www.cigars-review.org/Montecristo-Robustos_p5.htm 

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 27 Jul 2013 03:49 PM 
it works on a slit light source down one side of the sight glass 
Pog - I think you missed Charles' point. Sight glasses are notoriously unreliable and do not show the level accurately. (I suspect that is one problem Bill's WLDS was designed to solve!) 

Yep... and although some of his designs did require drilling a hole and tapping it to insert the level detector, he also supplied replacement Filler Plugs for specific boiler configurations and with that, there was NO non-reversible modifications to the locomotive at all. Well... as long as you didn't misplace (=LOSE!) the original filler plug! 
There are all sorts of "fixes" for unreliable sight glasses and some work for some people some of the time. A method of automatically reading it would be no more reliable than the sight glass is originally.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Pog, I'll leave the debate over system design to you and the gentlemen you have been discussing it with. But I will give you my thought on your question "would you be interested in it?"

When I was new into this hobby I did have some interest in the WLDS system but this was because the thought of boiler modifications or total boiler replacement was too intimidating. The loco that I had (ruby) had no sight glass and this was the main problem that bugged me. Now that I have found I am competent in these types of endeavors I would either add the sight glass or build a new boiler incorporating other beneficial options. I am a fan of either an axle driven pump or a servo driven pump that can be run at my decision given the reading on the glass. I favor this over a goodall valve since they often render the loco motionless while waiting for steam to build again. I feel this is still very "hands on" and lets me operate as the real guys did. I would not like the water delivery to be automated for that reason.

I think your system would have appeal to those who have locos lacking a sight glass and that do not desire to try any modification them selves, beyond unscrewing a plug and inserting a probe. Unfortunately it sounds like your system would rely on a sight glass existing already so I doubt it would offer help to those I think would find it useful. They would need something more like the WLDS.

Hope this help you make some decisions. Good luck !


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

If the engines have axle-pump, when the new tenders from Aster come out, the system would work if a modification could be done to existing tenders . All you have to do then is watch trailing water tender for refills.

Looking forward to getting the tenders for the Challenger. 
I realize that does not solve the site glass situation. I never can see the site glass to begin with because of my eye site. The WLDS system sounded good because of the led's.


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## pogsteam (May 23, 2013)

Semper Vaparo... The idea cannot be any more reliable than the sight glass and is not intended to as it takes the data from the sight glass.. and as you say 
there are fixes for sight glasses... Greg I think saw the point that any inaccuracies in the sight glass were outside the remit of this device. 

Perhaps need to look at other systems for non-sight glass engines... anyone else looking at ultrasonics? 

Oh... and Challenger tenders... delayed ... mine from Aster Uk probably September... or October... or...


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill Fords WDLS tok a great deal of flack for the blackhead probe. After a few years Bill came up with 3 different type probes using th water fill tub cap. He used to have fotos and description on his web site (link I think) bfindustries.com. ( sorry for the sp mistakes, it's a love/hate iPad relationship.)


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## bfwlds (Jul 30, 2013)

Yes a small number of WLDS systems are available. If you were considering one, order now.

Bill


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## bfwlds (Jul 30, 2013)

The website giving a full description of the operating system and accessories of the WLDS is available at www.WLDSsystem.Weebly.com A small number of systems are available from the last production run. If you are consideering purchasing one, order now. If you have questions Email me at bfinduswlds.com

Bill


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

While Mr. Bill Ford’s product is probably very good there are a couple of items about his site that concerns me and needs clarification. 
The installation of his system where you have to drill holes in a boiler; 
This is going to invalidate any manufacturers warranty, it is also going to invalidate any boiler test certificate. 
“A set of 2 drills and a tap is available for $10.00 for those not having access to those tools.” 
The above gives the impression that you drill and tap the Boiler shell. This would be a very bad idea. All Boiler fittings should be mounted to the boiler through a bushing which is silver (Hard) Soldered into the shell. After this is done the Boiler needs to be retested. 
Regards, 
Gerald.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Gerald, 
I share your concern about drilling an existing boiler. However, WLDS also offers a probe that fits on Accucraft engines and requires no modifications.


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Pete, 
I did notice his other systems which I would not hesitate to try or recommend, it is only the one where you drill a hole that I question. I had hoped that Mr. Ford would respond as I have had no luck trying to contact him. 
Regards, 
gerald.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I had hoped that Mr. Ford would respond as I have had no luck trying to contact him. 
Bill has been replying to me recently - in fact, I just bought one of his WLDS. 
Try [email protected]


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## bfwlds (Jul 30, 2013)

The website for the WLDS system and accessories is www.wldssystem.weebly.com.
Bill


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