# Waterwetter



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Have any of you used Waterwetter? I tried it yesterday and was impressed. Anyone have an opinion on this product?


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Dan,

I use Waterwetter in the cooling system of my MGA Twin Cam and it lowered the operating temps by about 10-15 degrees F. So it works, but it was not the total solution in my situation. I needed even more cooling so I added a thicker core aluminum radiator by Griffin Thermal Products and got the temps down another 15-20 degrees and I'm a happy camper -- using both.

What application do you have in mind? Certainly not in an Aster!!

Ross Schlabach


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I have also used it my Lotus 7 twin cam when I raced it. Yes in my S2 yesterday, now the site glass reads correctly. I used about 2 drops per liter.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Very interesting! I have a JNR 9600 that never reads properly, so maybe I should give it a try. Thanks for sharing.

Ross Schlabach


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Like I said, it only takes a drop or so. I don't know if I would want to use the percentage amount I used in my car. It does not "bubble" as you know Ross. When you first pore it into the tender it looks like it's bubbling but goes away instantly. I used it yesterday and used a full 4 Litres of fuel running and it seemed to work great. As you know it takes the surface tension away, that's what makes it work in race engine applications so well, stops over heating.


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

But what does it do to the inside of the boiler as the water is turned into steam? Will this turn into a coating over time?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

According to the MSDS on waterwetter here's the components (note that the percentage of the last ingredient is not listed)

DiIsopropyl Alcohol Ether 1-40% CAS #25265-71-8 
Tri Isopropyl Alcohol DiEther 1-40% CAS #24800-44-0 
Sodium Molybdate 2-10% CAS #10102-40-6 
Tolyltriazole 1-3% CAS #29385-43-1 
PolySiloxane Polymer


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Those are two questions I don't know the answer to, hence the original question.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I have thought about this ever since it was mentioned a few years ago, but have been too afraid to try it wondering about the long term effects.
i have added some to distilled water and boiled it off to see if anything was left behind, but knowing that is not a true test of it in our application I was afraid to go any further.
Still have a full bottle of RED LINE WATER WETTER on the shelf. Other opinions will be greatly appreciated. 
Thank You


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Water Wetter does two things.

First, it reduces the surface tension of the coolant in an engine. That enables the coolant to flow through a radiator much more easily than a coolant normally would. The rationale for using it in a live steam locomotive is to make the water flow through the sightglass to give a more accurate reading of the water level. This it does, But, read on. 

Water Wetter is also supposed to raise the boiling point of the solution created. Since you are trying to boil water and raise steam, do you really want to increase the boiling point of the water in your boiler?

I suggest no, as the process would be counterproductive. You would be better off removing and cleaning the sight glass. This I have done and I found the results to be more than satisfactory. 

I apologize in advance for any typos as this is being done from my phone.

Regards,

Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if you could just treat the inside of the sight glass with something that would reduce the meniscus "effect". 

Another thing, Waterwetter does not significantly increase the boiling point of water. You can validate this by searching on the internet.

Greg


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Will, it doesn't raise the boiling point of water, it reduces the surface tension of the water and therefor makes your radiator more efficient by improving the heat transfer. It also improves the heat transfer between the block and water helping the block stay cooler. In theory, if it made that big a difference it would help the water boil by increasing the heat transfer between the boiler and water. As I said, I used it last week and I did not notice any increased or decreased performance but I did get a more accurate site glass reading which was my reason for trying it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So the real issue is any extra solids buildup. I would guess that there is no corrosion danger, and red line and water wetter has been around forever.

Sight glass reading sure seems to be a problem that plagues many people, and this could be a simple solution. The increased conductivity makes me think that you should use a bit less energy to create steam.

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I went on docs.engineeringtoolbox.com chart Water-Pressure and Boiling Point, very interesting.
at 40lbs pressure the temp of the water in the boiler is 275.8'F, and the boiling point temp keeps rising as the pressure keeps rising. Tried to copy the chart to post it here but it seemed to be too big. LG


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Adding to Greg's comment. If the wetting agent is an organic liquid, it probably will boil off with the water. If it is an inorganic compound(a salt of some kind) dissolved in water, deposits will slowly build up over time as it will be left behind as the water evaporates. It is a salt, it is probably very soluble. So flushing the engine with clean water every so often should remove it, or don't run it to almost dryness.

My uninformed guess is that with reduced surface tension, the water will more easily flow through the small tube connecting the tender and boiler and the piping in the boiler, resulting in a little more water to boil and thus create more steam.

Since I don't have any experience with live steam engines these are thoughts coming from chemistry classes 50 plus years ago.

Chuck

You would have to add a lot to significantly raise the boiling point. Sea water with a lot of dissolved solids will boil at about 213 degrees instead of 212.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dan, why not run the engine on this stuff alone? Probably it does not cost more than distilled water;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS sorry, could not resist


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Google is your friend 

When I want to know whether something _may_ be good or bad, I search for reported or alleged problems that have surfaced concerning the item or service, etc.

Try searching "water wetter problems" and you will find reasons not to use water wetter.

The next part of the challenge is to sort through the results to determine what seems like mythology versus hard evidence. But there is information out there.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at the data from the MSDS that Greg posted above, it is from 2 to 80 % alcohol. so that will boil off (distil out) pretty quickly. Some of the other ingredients are probably solids that will be left behind. As you keep adding more "water-wetter" to the make up water in the tender the "other" will reach the saturation point in the boiler where it will then precipitate out as a scale of some sort, which might remain like sand that can be rinsed out or it might adhere to the surfaces and become an insulator or cloud the sight glass.

I would bet that if you use it long-term you will probably note the sight glass becoming cloudy. That film might cause more problems in the long run... either exacerbating the water adhering to the glass or fogging it so bad you cannot see the level but I don't know if that would be "soon" or not in your heir's lifetime.

I have no idea how long it would take for it to become a problem in heat transfer, either.


In the olden days, they went through thousands and thousands of gallons of what ever water they could get their hands on and "crick water" can be full of minerals!

Back then foaming was the biggest recognized problem and a "sack of potatoes" in the boiler was often the "chemical" of choice to help reduce the foaming (when I first heard of this I thought they were left in the sack, but I have seen a photo of them just being dumped in!... I could not tell if they were Russets or Irish Gold!)

In latter years more scientifically selected chemicals were added to try to keep the precipitated minerals from adhering to the boiler metal. And note that the added chemicals were just more precipitate to be washed out more frequently. "Blowdown valves" were invented so the sandy/flaky precipitate could be removed often using the boiler pressure to blow it out with the rush of water flashing to steam as it escapes from the bottom of the boiler.


How big is your boiler and how much of this stuff do you add at a time? Will it adhere to the boiler metal? How long will it take to do so and cause the boiler metal to melt resulting in a BLEVE?

And what will the alcohol do to the steam oil in the cylinders? Will you find increased wear on parts?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

> And what will the alcohol do to the steam oil in the cylinders? Will you find increased wear on parts?


I think your last point above cannot be easily determined and hasn't been fleshed out as yet.

These water wetters have been either engineered, or developed by snake-oil doctors, to go into the coolant water circuits of relatively large automotive engines where the coolant itself is 50% water and 50% additive at the start. The coolant passages are relatively large and precipitate that adheres to the internal coolant surfaces will take a good long while to build up to the level where restriction will occur.

I read a few articles after my Googling above and it seems these water wetters will likely leave a residue.

Maybe such a thing can be mitigated by repeated flushing of the boiler at the end of a day's running, but is it worth the risk?

And what about the interaction with the steam oil and the possible wear issues?

As a result of either ignorance - or an abundance of caution, I wouldn't use the stuff. But for anyone who does, please do come back here in 5 years and let us know how the experiment went and I may change my mind. 

My 2c (2p for you Brits.)

Cheers,

Joe


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, as you mentioned, 'long term is my fear. Has anyone been using it for more than an occasional run?? I don't think I'm ready to subject to any of my LS'ers to the experiment. 
If the ingredients have a lower boiling point of the water at the boiler pressure, then they are the first thing to go, and as Joe said what will that do to the steam oil and cylinders, Just Asking 
Auto radiators have caps that hold the pressure to 13-15 lbs to keep the fluid from boiling over, this raises the boiling point as pointed to in my previous posting. 
Again just asking. LG


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

All good points. It is said to stop corrosion, a good thing. I used 2 drops per liter of boiler water. Zubi, depending on where you get it the price is between $17 and $30 per 12oz, more than I pay for distilled water.

When racing my Lotus 7 I used a full bottle per coolant fill. In a good year one engine rebuild, in a bad year more times, I never saw any buildup in any water passages.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, your findings are very valid in your application. My ?? is the temps of our locomotives are much higher, as pointed out in a previous post, and in addition our water boils off and doesn't continue to circulate. Two drops per liter doesn't seem like much at all. My other concerns are still on my mind. 
 I would like to keep the discussion going as I'd really like to try it, just afraid of the long term effects. Thank You


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

One water wetter story that may amuse . . .

Years ago I built a water-cooled gaming computer that had two (2) water circulation cooling circuits. One circuit was built to cool the CPU and the northbridge chip and the second circuit was used to cool the two Nvidia 6800 video cards in an "SLI" configuration. I had two 12 VDC water pumps and two copper radiators. The water-blocks mounted to the computer components were works of CNC copper-milled engineering art designed by pros. Everything was interconnected with clear Tygon USP-quality tubing. The coolant consisted of distilled water + water wetter.

Over the space of some months, it became obvious that the coolant was contaminated with white flakes. I had to flush the coolant a couple of times to play it safe. One could easily see them when the computer wasn't running. I cannot state with certainty that the white flakes were precipitates of the water wetter - or caused by an interaction between the water wetter and something else, or possibly the water alone, but they either had to have come from the water wetter or else something that was leaching out of the soldered copper radiators.

To my mind, with water wetter, there is just too much reasonable doubt concerning the efficacy versus risk equation in our application.

BTW . . .

Don't ever waste your money building a water-cooled computer! What a horror story.  Hint: It worked well for a year and then . . .

Cheers,

Joe

The Olde Geek


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, you have a valid point that in a car radiator you don't boil off the water.

Joe, I'm not sure what the white flakes would be but I never saw anything like that in my car radiator. A water cooled computer, a cell phone today probably has more computing power than computers in those days.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I do not know anything about the water wetter, but the ingredient mentioned as "siloxane" is a product used to provide water resistance for masonry and concrete. It seems to get into the pores of materials and acts similar to other silicone materials.

http://www.appliedtechnologies.com/home/why_use_a_penetrating_silanesiloxane_sealer.html


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick, very good point for masonry, wonder why is it used in this application? thank you


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is an entire family of siloxanes... I don't think you can determine it's effect in this situation by itself. 

see the variety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Siloxanes

Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan Pantages said:


> Yes I have also used it my Lotus 7 twin cam when I raced it. Yes in my S2 yesterday, now the site glass reads correctly. I used about 2 drops per liter.


Isn't all this fear and loathing making a mountain out of a few molecules? 2 drops per liter? How many drops are in a liter? Maybe one drop is plenty?


Water Wetter is a generic product category from a variety of sources (not including Redline); 

*Athea® Laboratories, Inc*. * http://www.athea.com/products/395wat/water-wetter*

*Ecoline Industrial Supply, Inc. *(Home / Automotive & Industrial / Fire Fighting Products / Water Wetter); *http://www.goecoline.com/auto-industrial-maintenance/fire-fighting-products-1/water-wetter.html*

*Arrow Chemical Corp.* (Home » Our Products » Fire Fighting » Water Wetter);
Water Wetter, Product ID # 178 *http://arrowchemical.net/product/water-wetter/*

*Zircon Industries,* 061 Water Wetter; *http://www.greenchem.com/061waterwetter.html*
"At a ratio of one part Water Wetter concentrate to up to 4,000 parts water, this obviously is an economical problem solver."

*JSS Water Wetter; * *http://www.jamestownsoap.com/p/3959961/JSS-Water-Wetter-Gal/*

*Crystal Energy;* * http://www.wetterwater.net/*

*Nx Kem;* FLIPPER Water Wetter * http://www.nxkem.com/TECH/FLIPPER.pdf*


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, I have been down this bumpy road with you before on another subject. First I have no argument with the sites you have mentioned. 
My?? to you is how many LS locomotives do you own and run regularly with a boiler capacity of 1 liter??
I have mostly narrow gauge locomotives where the boiler volume is at most 350mls. That greatly increases the % or PPM of Water Wetter from your 1 liter estimate, 
I am not willing to gamble any of my 2K locomotives to an untried experiment, are you? assuming you have any at all. Thank You.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Yes
This seems like too great a risk to find out in five years that your boilers are all bad

This did get me thinking though (which is usually a bad thing)
Most sight glasses have a screw cap at the top. I wonder if you dampened a Q tip with Rainex and swabbed the inside of the glass with it, would it work and for how long ???


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, my fear is that or the small diameter tubes used as 'super heaters'. would narrow or plug up entirely. 
The Rainex sounds like a good idea, according to what I found in my search it also contains 'siloxanes' as does the water wetter, but if just coated to the site glass would be much less in the boiler water, and applied directly where it is needed most. I couldn't find the temp variance for the product as used in Rainex, that will be my next search. Certainly worth looking into, thank you.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I love Rainex but I fear using it inside the glass may give the opposite effect desired.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, do you feel that way because it causes the rain to bead up and roll off??? I hadn't thought of that.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, yes that was my thinking.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

It has been a while since I used Rainex but I think I remember it more causing the rain water to sheet up rather than form droplets. In the olden days truckers used to carry a bag of Bull Durham in the cab and would rub it on the windshield in case the wipers failed. 
I looked in the garage this morning to see if I had any rainex but I don't. 
My thought was to just take an engine that was half full and then take a macro photo of the glass which will show the radius around the water caused by capillary attraction and then do the rainex thing to see if it goes away


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, then I must be mistaken, if the water sheets up than the surface tension on the site glass will be reduced and hopefully give more realistic readings. 
You brought back some memories, I haven't 'chawed' since I was stationed on a tanker where open flame was restricted. USS Canisteo AO-99 , before it was converted into a Super Tanker, my first ship. 
If you do perform the test please post it. I really have no time lately as I'm building the Ultimate Chicken Coop and run. Girls are not due to arrive till April but I want to make sure they are well protected and comfortable. Thank You


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