# Track, roadbed and the fight against frost heave!



## baxters4 (Mar 11, 2012)

Ok all you long time track workers!!









After having track down for three years I have decided that I am tired of having to deal with frost heave EVERY spring. We even had a VERY mild mostly snowless winter and I have frost heave in some areas of the railroad as much as 6 inches....









I am looking for suggestions as to what I can do differently to minimize if not eliminate this problem. I will be re-wiring the layout this spring anyway so I'm not above pulling up the ballast and track and relaying the bridge style roadbed that I currently have down. When I built the layout I built vinyl bridge style roadbed under the track and about every 3 to 4 feet I pounded in a 1/2" pvc pipe stack about 30" long and screwed that to the roadbed. 

Is there anything like rebar or someother long stack with a hook at one end that I can hook my roadbed under and pound into the ground far enough to protect against the heave issue?

HELP!!!


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

"I have frost heave in some areas of the railroad as much as 6 inches....







"

I have got to see a photo of that,, when folks talk of frost heave I think of 1/2" or 1" at most.
6" I just can't believe it.

My RR has been added to , reworked, built on solid soil, on 5ft of fill dirt, I have every conditon you can have in NE, heavy rain, cold winters , dry cracking dirt.
Moles don't even lift the soil 6", maybe 3" at most.


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm not sure what part of the country your in, but here in Buffalo we've also had a real mild winter. I haven't started my snow blower at all! My layout is only a few years old and hasn't really had any frost heave problems. Even though last year we had a brutally cold winter. I chose to lay my track on nothing but ballast. Just like the 1:1 railroads do. I've experienced only minor touch ups each spring. If I were to use the 'bridge style' roadbed, I'd have to pound posts below the frost line (42 inches in my area). I'm just not that motivated!!! You might find it easier to leave out the vinyl and just use ballast. Just a thought. 


-Kevin.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There is frost heave and then there is frozen ground that can raise parts of the track. The former comes when water down to a depth of a foot or more in the soil freezes. Water when it freezes expands the soil and causes the ground surface to be uneven. Frozen ground, in my opinion is only a surface event. The water in the surface 1/2" or so from the surface freezes and you get ice crystals thay you can see and that will effect the track. A warm or sunny day will melt those surface crystals and the track goes back to normal. In Virginia I get the latter. Especially, if we get a hard freeze after a heavy rain. The problem usually goes away in less than a day. 

Real frost heave as I remember from my college days in New Hampshire, comes in the late winter and spring. That is when many of the secondary and some primary roads are more like a roller coaster than a smooth level highway. This type of frost heave didn't occur until late in the winter after there had been some thawing.

Where do you live and please describe your problem a little better? Do you see ice crystals (pinnacles that stand above the ground surface)? These usually crunch under foot. Pictures would help. 


Good drainage around your roadbed should help improve the situation. 


Members of this forum from northern climes may disagree with me, but these are my observations.


Chuck


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want to prevent frost heave you have to remove all the frost susceptible organic soils/clays/silts under your roadbed and use good clean crushed gravel to build up your roadbed with, followed by a clean ballast such as stonedust, or manufactured fines. By "clean" I mean that there is


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Includes a USGS map of soils types across US identifying which areas subject to expansive(aka heave) and shrinkage:

*Expansive Soil and Expansive Clay The hidden force behind basement and foundation problems*

Wittingly or unwittingly and due to perception 98-99% of fence post holes look like the hole on the left. 
The only way to get a parallel post hole is to measure the top and bottom. Using measurement dig the hole on the right.



*Installing Fence Posts:*


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

As a builder I ,personally never use the trench method of digging and placing gravel under my track. all surface water runs to that and it really soaks the soil under the gravel. 
I compact my soil then use concrete roadbed on top the soil ,to shed water away and it keeps moles from digging under my track. 

I guess he did not tell us enough of ,"what" is heaving.
any method, do you realize how much water it would take to lift track 6"?? 

I have had wood signs work their way out and termites eat them also.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I drilled a 3" hole, 24' deep, cut my 1 1/2" pipe 4" longer then what I needed. Drove the pipe 4" into the ground then back filled and tamped as I back filled. Been out there 4 years the most a pipe comes out of the ground is about 1/4 - 1/2"' and only one or two.
When the ground is soft in the spring I put a 2x4 on the tracks and push the pipes right back into the ground.









Don


----------



## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to agree 6 inch rise because of frost heave seems to be a lot. I think you have something else going on. My layout has experienced everything from hurrican, tropical storm and snowstorm all within a 2 month period. With all the water that is in the ground I experiences very little frost heave. I use the stone dust as my balast. The ony thing that notice heaving are my wooden retaining walls I have on my layout. They shoot up about an inch off the ground. 
If you have pictures to show us that will help us determine what might be going on.


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Chris S. - 

Thanks for including the link to that frost-heave map. 

Being in a traditionally (not this winter) cold area, I always presumed I was in a zone with much heave potential. The map indicates soil, not temperature, that is the predictor. Turns out I live in an area of little to no clay that is related to heaving. For once in my life, I got LUCKY. And I like the neighbors, too. 

JackM


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

That map is wrong for my area.. 
it says I live in "These areas are underlain by soils with little to no clays with swelling potential.".. 
wrong..my yard is virtually solid clay..I could make pottery from my yard.  

and I think some of you are underestimating the 6-inch frost heave potential.. 
it doesnt have to be 6" all at once.. 
imagine a wood post in the ground.. 
you get a little bit of heave, say one inch, post raises up, and the soil fills in what used to be the "hole" under the post, 
preventing it from falling back down.. 
then a few days or weeks later you get another heave event when conditions are right, another inch..the soil again moves and 
settles under the post, preventing it from falling back down again.. 
repeat this a few times, each time the post raises up a little bit, and a post that started at 6" in the ground can easily pop right out of the ground.. 

it happened to me last winter..I had a rock in the ground, I didnt measure it excactly, but it was easily 6" in the ground, 
deep enought to hold it upright..its visable in this photo, next to the red schoolhouse:


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot 
I agree on ,,A post. but anything laying on the ground won't push up 6".


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 13 Mar 2012 07:57 AM 
Scot 
I agree on ,,A post. but anything laying on the ground won't push up 6". right..but the original poster was talking about posts in the ground..

(I think he was anyway..its not totally clear what he meant, but he did say 
"I built vinyl bridge style roadbed under the track and about every 3 to 4 feet I pounded in a 1/2" pvc pipe stack about 30" long and screwed that to the roadbed."
so I read that as "posts in the ground")

then everyone said 6" wasnt possible, in reference to his situation..my point was, it is possible.

Scot


----------



## baxters4 (Mar 11, 2012)

Ok.... I'll try to clear up some of the confusion here... While I don't have pictures at this point I will try to get some even though I have tried to push my roadbad back into place. 

Yes Scot I do have posts in the ground. They are about 30" long give or take... some might be 36" other 24" didn't really get too carried away marking lengths just cut till I cam to the end of a 10' piece of pipe. 

Marty, While I can't say that it really is 6" it sure is more than 3" or even 4". my point of reference is a thru truss bridge that I have. the track was laying flat across it last fall and when I looked at it last weekend it was raised nearly half way up the bridge opening. Now that is not to say all was due to heave, at least not by the track/roadbed. some could have been due to movement of the bridge itself. 

When I put down the roadbed, I did trench it in but only about an inch or so and then only to get the rail level as I went down the line. 
I would then fill the roadbed with the dirt I had pulled out and packed it down as best I could then I lay my ballast over that... 
The ballast I am using is the small grey gravel that the street department uses when the oil your blacktop street to seal them. 
It is between 1/8" and 1/4" in size mostly. the other problem I have with useing that is that it tends to settle into the soil around my track so I have to keep replacing it.. I know I can stop this with a fabric base, just haven't gotten to that yet.... 

By the way, I am in southern Minnesota so a little bit north of Scot Lawrence in NY. if you look at the map.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I read the OP again, he does not say his track is elevated, in fact it is supported on1/2" pipe, so if it's elevated, it's supported by a lot of dirt. 

So I would have to agree, one method is how Marty "won" the battle, right on the surface in a way that did not make water accumulate under it (no trench). 

The other option with no movement is a pipe/tube that is perfectly cylindrical and below the frost line, but if the earth rises around the track (like you backfilled earth up to the track) that can move also. 

With only 4" in the ground, you would expect minimal frost heave, since you only 4" in, and that's what was reported. 

The only way to have NONE would be elevated with nothing underneath the track and below the frost line... a lot of work. 

So, there's several examples here that all correlate to what can push up on the track, whether it is the posts or the undersides of the roadbed (I'm assuming that bridge style = ladder track) 

If it was me, I would probably go with a setup with minimal heave, unless I was fond of drilling very deep holes. 

Greg


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr Baxter 
could not find your name. 
We all really do want to help you. 
You know for sure the old way does not work., The main reasons I used conrete roadbed with a 3/8' rebar layed in, 
1 stop moles 
2 able to level from side to side better 
3 deer does not hurt the track 
4 heavy down pours does not mess up the track, (it does the ballast dressing) 
5 and can be cut and moved and reused again. 
6 sits on top of the soil (shave grass off) makes it look more like modern mainline.


----------



## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I built the central part of my railroad several years ago on pressure treated lumber held up about 1.5 to 2 foot above the ground by posts that go below the frost line. It has never moved. About four years ago I wanted to expand my railroad but didn't want to go through all the work and expense of what I did before so I laid the railroad basically on the ground but held up a few inches by PVC pipe that when down about a foot and a half. Every spring I had to push the track and road bed back down (never more than an inch or maybe two at the most). I got tired of that and took the pipes out and the track has stayed pretty much flat ever since. And my soil is mostly clay. It stays wet for days after a heavy rain.
Bob in South West Michigan


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok here is how I see it: 

The OP mentioned a "Vinyl roadbed" so I assume this is a similar base like what Don posted. Then you pounded 1/2" PVC pipe in the ground to support it. Finally, you built up the ground around the base with dirt. 

This is almost exactly what I did. If so, then I may have your solution. Did you seal the top of the pipes you pounded into the ground? I say this because I figured this out this winter. I seal most of my pipe tops with silicon sealer except in an area where I was going to take out the pipes to place a bridge. Guess where I go some frost heave? 

My thinking is: water is flowing down into the pipe and pooling at the bottom. Then it freezes and there is your frost heave. If you seal the top of the pipe then there is no way for the water to flow down into the pipe. It worked for me. I had no frost heave on any part of the layout except the spot I already mentioned. 

As for your ballast. I would stick with what you have. It is going to be part of general maintenace. You could use someing that has more "fines" in it and then sprinkle the chips on the top for appearances.


----------



## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Trains said:


> I drilled a 3" hole, 24' deep, cut my 1 1/2" pipe 4" longer then what I needed. Drove the pipe 4" into the ground then back filled and tamped as I back filled.
> Don


I know I am joining in late but if anyone reads this could I get an explanation. 

The pictures of this is exactly what I was considering doing. I have to go a minimum of 30" to beat the frost. Now the above post says a 3" hole 24" (I assume that was not really 24') deep but then the pipe was only driven into the ground 4". Should that have read that it was pound in until 4" was left sticking out? 

I was thinking of going 30-36 inches deep (I live where there is quite a bit of rock, you get what you get) and then pounding them down to depth. and leaving what I need for the various height to make grade. Is that reasonable.


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe he's saying that after he dug the hole 24", he drove the pipe in the ground an additional 4", thus the pipe is in the ground a total of 28". The pipe's total length will be longer, depending on how high it needs to rise above ground.


----------



## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

jimtyp said:


> I believe he's saying that after he dug the hole 24", he drove the pipe in the ground an additional 4", thus the pipe is in the ground a total of 28". The pipe's total length will be longer, depending on how high it needs to rise above ground.


Ahhh gotcha that makes more sense.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

That's what I did! Drilled a 3" hole, 24" deep, drove the pipe in another 4", so that 28" in the 
ground plus what is sticking out of the ground. I have some pipe 30" out of the ground, plus
28" in the ground for a total of 58" long.

Don


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Where I live in Western NY state I am told we have frost down below two feet? I am not sure I believe it though. For sure I' have not had any issues ove the last three years of my "starter" loop in the front yard. I attribute some of this to the proximity to the house and to being on the leeward side of the house. My ladder roadbed is elevated about 8 inches above grade and ballasted to grade with crushed limestone. Sadly it is clean limestone not with the dust in it as it hasn't locked in. It shifts quite a bit. The ladder however hasn't truly moved. Up or down or sideways. I also attribute this to we haven't really had a good hard winter with sub freezing temperatures lasting for weeks on end.

Chas


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in a very heavy "frost heave potential" area..Western NY, with heavy clay soil..pretty much prime conditions for frost heave..
and I have personally witnessed frost heave popping stones right out of the ground in my yard..
these stones, the four standing upright in the foreground:










are buried 6" to 8" in the ground..frost heave lays them flat on the ground most springs..
The entire months of March and April have days above freezing and nights below freezing..its just way too much freeze/thaw to have shallow posts in the ground.

One advantage to taking FOREVER to build my garden railroad,  is that I have had lots of time to read up on things like this..I have come to a very important conclusion:

For my climate, I believe there is only one roadbed technique that will work reliably, with the least amount of yearly maintenance required:

dig a trench, fill the trench with gravel/ballast, lay the track in the ballast..the end.

No ladder, no posts, no PVC, no nothing..anything IN the ground will be subject to frost have.
the only solution is to have nothing IN the ground! 
the track will lay *on* the ground, but have nothing whatever buried into the ballast or buried under the track.

Scot


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Scot -

According to "the Map" I have no clay because I'm a mile from the southern edge of Lake Ontario, and that is true, at least close to the house. I think what I have close to the house would qualify as "loam". You can dig into it with your finger and everything grows like wildfire. Especially weeds.

I am curious how you dug your trench - and how deep. I would someday like to add a loooonnnnng line way out into the back yard and back to give the illusion of the train actually going somewhere. I have this idea of renting a machine that scalps the top inch or two of the turf. It's adjustable vertically, and 18 inches wide. Then I'd fill that "trench" with gravel, etc., etc. Nothing fancy, just, ummm, distance. The local rental place has this thing. Seems, at least for me, that it would work.

Your opinion?

JackM


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

5x5" or so, lined with weed blocker, to keep rocks from migrating. Helps to drain water away from the track.
You can fill trench with gravel, but for ballast (on top) to hold the track you want broken or crushed rock. DG (decomposed granite) is in between broken and gravel, it will hold some what and there will be more to replace each spring. You might have to reshape the ballast mound more often with smoother rock.
Broken rock has sharp corners, combined with fragments, a solid lock forms and our track is held snug yet it gives just enough for expansion. Our trains vibrate the track too which helps rock migrate....
My land sloped, I used rocks to form a trench above ground on the lower 40 ....
Happy Rails,
John


----------



## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I live in Northern Ohio, about 50 miles south of the lake. Our temperatures range from maybe - 15 to +90 degrees. We get a lot of freezing and thawing in the winter. 

I put my RR on the ground. About 1/2 of it I used the trench method. The other half I just used my weed eater and got down to bare ground then I put weed cloth and a good layer of road bed. In all cases I have enough stone to get the track at least 1-2 inches, sometimes up to 5 inches above the ground. The track has been down for 9 years and so far no problems with frost heave. 

My suggestion, like several here have also suggested. If you live in an area that has frost heave, put your track on the ground. Why go through the pain every year of having to fix your track work because you have put down post or stakes into the ground. Concrete or stone on top of the ground gives you more time to play trains each spring instead of fixing broke things. 

A little story. 

Last year we had a very bad winter with a long period where the temperatures never got above zero. Several members in our club had portions of their railroad supported above the ground with wood & PVC supports that were in the ground 2-3 feet. Our frost level around here is about 12-18 inches. Well all of these railroads had damage caused by frost heave for the first time since they were put in. To correct this, they are pulling up the post and are going to use concrete deck blocks that rest on top of the ground. So you might consider going to these cement blocks if you need some elevation instead of putting post in the ground. 

Regards,
Mark
*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/*


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I definitely agree with Mark. I put my RR right on the ground and (presuming we are using the term "heave" as abrupt side-to-side movement) never had to worry about frost heave. My temps are similar to his. Let me add a comment about weed cloth.

Everybody says "put down weed cloth". I disagree. When I bought this place, which was orginally owned by a lady who was REALLY into gardening, I dutifully put down weed cloth in a few of the flower beds, and covered with a couple inches of red stone. Within a few years, bits of weed cloth were visible as if if was flowers coming up from the dirt. Now, I have large pieces of that stupid black cloth mixed with, or well above, the dirt and stones. Don't know what I did wrong, but I'll never use that stuff again. 

Since I know nothing at all about gardening, I didn't know what I had (can't tell this week's weed from next week's flower). One part of a bed had a clear area until one day I noticed some of the weed cloth starting to peer up amongst the stones. Then, there were spears poking up, growing bigger, looking the Sigourney Weaver's stomach. They were 3-4 inches above the stones when I finally cut slits thru the cloth, and watched as a Hibiscus bush grew up into a monster bush that is a good eight feet across!

JackM


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"which was orginally owned by a lady who was REALLY into gardening"
Perhaps you are the exception, not the norm.
The cloth is only to contain the rock, which can and will migrate down into your soil.
It's use does not make or break the concept of trenching.
John


----------



## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Besides using weed block for my roadbed trenches I have used it on my various "hills". I cut slots out for plantings and covered the rest with cedar mulch. The biggest issue is not frost heave but the $#[email protected]*&! squirrels who seem to love to dig out the mulch and leave round bare spots where the fabric shows through.


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I am getting a bit confused now.



> The cloth is only to contain the rock, which can and will migrate down into your soil.


I am with Wayne; to my knowledge it is weed block. I put it in the flower beds to prevent weeds from coming up, with the expectation that I'll need to refresh the stones (in the flower beds) every five or ten years to keep the beds looking pretty.

Likewise, I would put the cloth under roadbed to keep weeds from coming up (things grow like crazy around here), not to keep the stones from going down. Do roadbeds sink that much?

I don't use any mulch; around here everybody buys bags and bags of the stuff every Spring to replace the stuff that blew away or got shoveled up with the snow. I decided to use the red stone and, like I say, refresh it every 5/10 years just to keep it looking nice. The less I have to play with Mother Nature, the better. 

JackM

Do I have to mention that I've been divoced (2x) many years? When I had a wife there was tacit agreement that I change the tires and she does stuff around the house to keep it looking nice. I still have that agreement.....with myself.


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Anybody familiar enough with HTML to know why the word "quote" appears before the actual quote (in post #13)? The word doesn't show up in what I see in my post. I see my posting rule at the left of this page say that HTML code is *off*. Does that effect my use of the quote icon in the upper border?

JackM


----------



## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

All of my trench roadbed has weed block fabric lining the bottom and sides of the trench. Over time I have seen the smaller stones migrate away from the top track area but not to such an extent as to cause the roadbed to sink. I must assume that the weed block is retaining the overall mass of stones within the trench itself. Yes, I do have some hardy weeds that will actually take root in the top of the roadbed. These are easily pulled out from the stone. Nothing to date from under the trench itself.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jack,
My rocks have taken trips...
2 pounds of train can vibrate the track as they rumble by, I winnow my ballast from deposits on my property, it's not as rough as broken, nor smooth as river. It does wander. I have to replace after each Monsoon season. Horizontal rain moves a bunch.

People that are adverse to buying rock each year have tried to out smart Ol' Ma Nature. One suggestion has been to line the trench, now it helps to understand the nature of a G $cale hobbyist, we re-purpose stuff all the time. So we aren't as weed blockin' as we are ballast savin'. Anything to reduce maintenance! 
I can see how yore thinking might oughter be influenced.
Happy Rails,
John


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I would think that the Weed Block would also retain water. That would also contribute to frost heave. I could be wrong. 

JJ


----------



## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

John, the weed block that I use is actually a fairly course weave of fabric that allows water to easily pass through. That's one of it's selling points. This is good because I have many plantings, both in the RR area and elsewhere, that are in beds that are topped off with weed block and mulch.


----------



## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I knew I had a picture somewhere! This entire "hill" is covered with weed block. I cut holes in the fabric for the various plants and then covered it all with cedar mulch.


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Edges of the weed block will come up over time, unless they are held down by something. Your yard dirt has been draining fine, just put down the roadbed, spray the area with roundup and you are good to go. Most weedblock seems to be useless anyway, grows up through it is my experience.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

When I built my initial loop (still all I have permanently set up outside) my biggest mistake was rototilling the entire garden area first. This introduced a LOT of "air" into the soil. Disturbing it and meaning that it would settle again. I then placed Weed block fabric over the entire garden poking a few holes where I knew I had bulbs that I wanted to leave in place. I then assembled the ladder in place and drove the PVC pipe through the ladder and into the ground about 24 inches deep. leaving about 8 inches above grade. I laid the track out and I then purchased crushed limestone (1/4 to 1/8 grit with minimal fines) and balasted the entire loop with the small rock. I consider this to be my second mistake. It took almost 4 tons if I recall to ballast the entire 8 foot by 24 foot loop. I then bought mulch and mulched the rest of the garden area over the weed block. The third mistake is that I've not re-mulched in 3 to 4 years now. 

To review my mistakes: Rototilling meant that the earth I disturbed under the weed block was going to settle again. No problem with the tracks moving because of the Ladder setup, but the ballast I put down has settled quite a bit requiring annual reballasting at about 2 tons per year. I have dug into it and determined I'm not loosing ballast to the dirt rather the ballast and the weeblock under it is still settling. I am certain it will continue to settle for a good number of years yet. 
The second mistake being that I should have built up to the level of the ladder with larger ballast stones. Perhaps the Crushed limestone with crusher fines included to minimize the need to use as much of the 1/4- stuff which is more expensive. Not as big a mistake I believe as rototilling. 
Because of the lifesituation I've not re-mulched and the weeds are growing in the mulch. It started out looking like a small forest of scale tress. Think Parsely, but those quickly got out of hand. I have weeded three times this year and had I done it weekly or bi-weekly it would not have been quite the chore. The stuff is VERY invasive. It will grown in zero soil in the ballast. It has roots that will penetrate the weedblock or travel from the middle of a sheet under the mulch to an edge and under into the soil, thereby forming a carrot like bundle of roots. Requiring a dandelion tool to loosen them up and remove them. I believe (according to my gardening nieghbor) that had I re-mulched every spring it would ahve minimized the weeds? I certainly would have kept the fabric down as it is now floating and tattered like Jack's description. Hoping to get new mulch in the spring and get some expansion taken care of too. Re-ballast of course too. The expansion will have a weedblock then dirt and larger crushed limestone base built up to my Ladder and then the fine stuff for looks over it. I will be going farther out into the yard but still on the leeward side of the house weather wise. We will see if this new section will heave next winter. First step is to build a removable deck bridge to get the lawnmower from the front to the back of the house. This sets where the new section will begin. 

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread but I thought my experience might be helpful?

Chas


----------

