# F- Scale question



## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi everyone,
I'm planning an F-scale scratch build....but I need to clear something up first! 

My Accucraft 3 cylinder shay is 1:20.3, otherwise known as Fn3. Would a standard gauge F scale model be 1:20.3 or 1:20?


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

It would be the same scale at 1:20.3. The ".3" in 1:20.3 is an integral part of the scale ratio (20.3 times smaller than the prototype, where 15mm on the model = 1 prototype foot). The "n3" in Fn3 simply denotes 3-foot narrow gauge.


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

The model would still be 1:20.3 but you couldn't run it on the same track as it would require track with a gauge of slightly over 2 3/4". 4' 8 1/2" = 2.873" in 1:20.3 scale. 3' (36") narrow gauge track has a gauge of 1.77", slightly over 1 3/4" which is what your Shay runs on.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The scale ratio for "F" is 1:20.32 which is usually rounded to 1:20.3 or even to 1:20! Since we use 45mm track to represent 3 ft. narrow gauge the scale is referred to as Fn3. Standard gauge (4 ft. 8 1/2") would be run on 70.64mm track. The scale would be "F" and the scale ratio would still be 1:20.32! I hope this helps.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

s-4, the precise definition you are looking for is 15mm scale (meaning 15mm to one foot) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Precise but confusing! To clarify, F scale is also referred to, especially outside the USA as 15mm scale (15mm=1 ft.) It has been theorized that the "F" actually stands for (F)ifteen!


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Fn3 is shorthand for 1:20.3 scale models running on 3 foot narrow gauge track. F is shorthand for 1:20.3 scale models running on standard gauge track. The letter F designates the scale which is a twentieth (+ a little) of actual size hence 1:20.3. If it isn't followed by anything it means the item modeled runs on standard gauge track. If it is followed by nX it means that it runs on track with a gauge of X where X is a number hence Fn2 would be a model with a scale of 1:20.3 running on 2 foot gauge track which is about 1.18" gauge.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 04 Mar 2010 09:41 PM 
Precise but confusing! To clarify, F scale is also referred to, especially outside the USA as 15mm scale (15mm=1 ft.) It has been theorized that the "F" actually stands for (F)ifteen! 

Steve, if that were the case, 16mm scale would be referred to as S-scale;-)... Best, Zubi


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

What we have really done here is to invent yet another scale near to one that already exists. 

In case you think I've been at the hallucinogenic powders, think about it for a minute. 

When LGB redefined the use of 45mm track to represent meter gauge NG - scaled at 1:22.5 - there was already a 1:22.6 scale that was well-established, and already as old as the century - Gauge 3. This runs on 64mm gauge track. Well, it might not be all that well-known where YOU live, but over here it was, and is, with a rapidly-growing range of mass-produced models and kits as well as the usual scratch-builder. The UK's Gauge 3 Society is THE alma mater for this burgeoning scale. 

And now we have F Scale - or 15mm standard gauge - based on US-only prototypes, and the haven of skilled craftsmen who build gigantic models for the rich and famous that can only be run on US-scaled trackage. We've seen the wonderful job made of the GN S-2, and now can expcet to see an eight-foot long Challenger... 

All because somebody wanted to see what standard gauge would look like alongside their Fn3... 

So what's next? 

Well. crystal-balling, it just HAS to be 7/8th scale.....and how neat a standard gauge model built to THAT scale would look. 

...and guess what. 

We Already HAVE 1" scale....................... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By s-4 on 04 Mar 2010 08:39 PM 
Hi everyone,
I'm planning an F-scale scratch build....but I need to clear something up first! 

My Accucraft 3 cylinder shay is 1:20.3, otherwise known as Fn3. Would a standard gauge F scale model be 1:20.3 or 1:20? 


There are relatively few resources for F scale as opposed to Fn3. I did find a couple.
Iron Creek Shops
Cumberland Model Engineering

Check 'em out!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Check out Missouri Locomotive Company, too. Not as much in terms of bare essentials for the scratchbuilder as Iron Creek Shops, but some F (standard gauge) stuff. 

If I recall correctly, the "F" was part of a scale designation progression that sought to put a letter to each scale under the "large scale" banner a while back. 1:32 was #1, 1:29 was "A" (presumably for Aristo-craft), 1:24 was "H" (Half inch), 1:22.5 was "G" (historically its specific designation), and 1:20.3 became "F", because it was next in the alphabet, (for "Fifteen" makes as much sense. I hadn't heard that reasoning.) That proposal never gained any traction, but the "F" designation for 1:20.3 somehow managed to survive. It's still not mainstream, even among the scale's followers. 

What are you thinking of building? 

Later, 

K


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

7/8th on gauge 1 track is interesting for 2 foot gauge the scale is 13.7 but for European 600 mm gauge the scale is 13.3


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Tac, 

No crystal ball needed. SG in 7/8ths has already been done. A guy named Dave Cummins built an SG boxcar and modeled an interchange between 2' and SG on his layout. It actually looks quite nice and is a good comparison. I think the gauge is 4.125" or something like that. IMHO for the sake of illustration it is fine to model in these obscure gauges since you would be building essentially a piece of scenery. However if you want to do any serious running I have to side with Tac on this one. If I wanted to model standard gauge in 1:20.32 scale I personally would make some allowances and simply build them for gauge 3 (2.5") or 7/8ths scale on 4.75" gauge (5" in the U.K.) respectively. I would do this because these gauges are "established" and there is an 1100' track near me, at Golden Gate Live Steamers, that has both of these gauges so I might actually be able to do some real running. 

Regards,


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Someday I really want to do more modeling in 7/8n2 scale..(Maine 2-footers on 45mm track)
I have only built one flatcar so far..its a fairly well established scale/gauge combination..
mostly still a "scratchbuilders" scale, although there are beginning to be some commercial products offered, such as trucks, rolling stock kits, and detail parts.
not a lot, but its a slowly growing scale..

But standard gauge in 7/8 scale?!
woah..I wont be building that in the garden anytime soon! 










althugh I really like the idea of just an interchange..hmmm..
although im already planning on a SG-2foot interchage in 29n2 scale..too many scales! 


Scot


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## therbert (Sep 18, 2008)

Little Engines West (I think) still has castings and prints available for 4-6-2, 4-6-4, 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 engines in nominal 1/2" scale for Gauge 3 track (2.5" gauge). As far as I know, They're the only producers of stuff for American-style locos left in that scale. I have the plans for a Hudson, but I'll probably never go farther than that.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Wow thanks for the outpouring of responses! * 
I will go along with the 1:20.3 for F scale standard. 

I've decided that since I have the cnc equipment to make everything, I might as well make something truly unique.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By s-4 on 05 Mar 2010 01:40 PM 
*Wow thanks for the outpouring of responses! * 
I will go along with the 1:20.3 for F scale standard. 

I've decided that since I have the cnc equipment to make everything, I might as well make something truly unique. 





While you're making one, you might think about making a few. You might be able to sell a couple ( parts that is).


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

I went F-gauge standard because I want to model the very early locomotive types. These engines, almost always, have a boiler that was fitted between the drivers and no larger. If I had gone with gauge 1 standard, the boilers would have ended up really small and not so fun to do in live steam. I did think about doing gauge 3, but F gauge gave me a bit over 1/4" more width between the drivers and that made my decision. I was going to have to scratch build everything anyway, so it wasn't that big of a deal to go with a less popular gauge. That and because I'm making everything myself, the costs are less, some even less then if I had gone with gauge 1. Of course the drawback is that you have to actually build the thing and that takes time, money and effort.







In any case, welcome to the club.









Jason


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Good idea Dave! I'm bet I can produce the same parts in different scales too. 

Jason, 
I'll have to search MLS to see if you have any photos posted up! Did you make your own boilers?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

One of my "pipe dreams" is to model the only surviving SG Denver & Rio grande Western Steamer #683, a C-28 2-8-0 in F scale (1:20.3)! It's a neat engine and it is relatively small in comparison to some of the giants that have been or are being modeled! It's turning radius should be narrow enough that I could put it in the backyard without too much trouble!


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## GeorgeMMR (Jan 19, 2008)

Please allow me to add a few words on F scale standard gauge. What we don't usually think about is moving the model around once we have it finished. I built the D&SL 2-6-6-0 that is on the Cumberland Model Engineering site, and although it is quite small for an articulated, I have to really think about it if I want to take it out to the railway for a run. I have a special display stand that links onto the railway, for picking it up is out of the question. So when you plunge ahead (and I sincerely hope that you do!) and buld that dream loco in F standard gauge, think about moving it around. Enjoy!
George


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 
This is a great point! You have to be careful about turning radii when dealing with such large live steam engines! I'm hoping to be able to build a long point-to-point layout for this with a turntable /passing track on each end of the line. That way I can have nice sweeping curves over the long distance without turning the garden into a cross-stitch of rails. I figure stopping at each end will give me a chance to water and fuel up. 

George, 
You also have a great point! Hopefully I can build an storage track directly into the garage as I had done with the RCRR. Maybe I could run dual gauge into the barn so that I can use my old 45mm gauge batt/elecs to pull them into the barn! 


So what am I planning to build? 
So far these are at the top of my must-have list. 

GT 0-18a 

http://www.indianheadresort.com/uploads/images/conwayscenicrr.jpg


NYC J3a Dreyfuss


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

16mm scale would be referred to as S-scale 

Well, that's where SM32 got its letter designation. ;-) 

1:29 was "A" (presumably for Aristo-craft) 
My recollection is that "A" was for American, as it was a uniquely US scale. 

"Fifteen" makes as much sense 
I think that was the plan. I do recall "T" was suggested for 7/8" scale (7/8n2 in the 45mm case) as it stood for Thirteenth. 1:13.7 to be exact.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So far these are at the top of my must-have list. 
s-4, 

I second that comment about making more than one 'part' for your loco. EBT had a couple of std gauge 0-6-0s like that 0-18a on your list. The mechanisms are the trickiest bit, so when you get round to the chassis and wheels, send me a message!


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

"16mm scale would be referred to as S-scale"

Sorry, its been taken:

"At a subsequent 1942 NMRA meeting the designation "S" was formally adopted for 3/16" scale model railroading. It is thought that the "S" was derived from words such as _S_even-eighths in the track gauge or three-_s_ixteenths in the scale."

1/64 scale. American Flyer size. It is also "a uniquely US scale" as the first 3/16" scale models were manufactured in the US begining in 1937 and it is an inch scale rather than metric.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By s-4 on 05 Mar 2010 08:15 PM 
Jason, 
I'll have to search MLS to see if you have any photos posted up! Did you make your own boilers? 

Not yet.







But I am planning on making my own. I'm still learning though and getting all of the tools together.

Jason


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry, its been taken 
(Trust a guy called Hawkeye to remember that one . .)


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that pretty much most of us actually know that S scale already exists, and the the original comment on this thread was somewhat intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

Is there any existing interest in O gauge representing narrow gauge in 1:32? That might be a nice addition to the hobby, considering there's already G/O dual gauge track.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By tacfoley on 07 Mar 2010 08:51 AM 
I think that pretty much most of us actually know that S scale already exists, and the the original comment on this thread was somewhat intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Thanks;-), Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Anthony Duarte on 07 Mar 2010 12:45 PM 
Is there any existing interest in O gauge representing narrow gauge in 1:32? That might be a nice addition to the hobby, considering there's already G/O dual gauge track. 
A lot of interest. It is referred to as Im Please check the scale-gauge table http://www.morop.org/de/normes/nem010_d.pdf Best, Zubi


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

A little internet search has indicated that S started out as H/1 as in half of gauge one or 1:64


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Tac, I pretty much took it as tongue in cheek, I was tyring to get in an plug for my favorite scale and provide a little history.

Jeff, the H/1 designation is interesting, I've been in S since the early 70's and had never heard that. S actually began in the UK in 1896 but I have never been able to find evedience that anyone produced parts. kits, or finished product before 1936 anywhere in the world. Cleveland Model & Supply got into the market in 1937 calling it C-D Gauge, "The 100% American Scale".


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By hawkeye2 on 07 Mar 2010 10:23 PM 
Tac, I pretty much took it as tongue in cheek, I was tyring to get in an plug for my favorite scale and provide a little history.

Jeff, the H/1 designation is interesting, I've been in S since the early 70's and had never heard that. S actually began in the UK in 1896 but I have never been able to find evedience that anyone produced parts. kits, or finished product before 1936 anywhere in the world. Cleveland Model & Supply got into the market in 1937 calling it C-D Gauge, "The 100% American Scale".



Peace, Bro.









Surprisingly there is a good deal of interest in S scale as a narrow-gauge line - there is a thriving industry in New Zealand, where, as you know, the rail gauge is 3ft 6in [Cape Gauge] as well as a series of models of the White Pass Mike and short-hood Alco diesels in this scale.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

most of us actually know that S scale already exists 
_Not everyone was brought up in the land of American Flyer. I had a Hornby (O scale) and finally got into EM and P4 . . S scale = Senior moment? _


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## scoobster28 (Sep 15, 2008)

Posted By therbert on 05 Mar 2010 12:43 PM 
Little Engines West (I think) still has castings and prints available for 4-6-2, 4-6-4, 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 engines in nominal 1/2" scale for Gauge 3 track (2.5" gauge). As far as I know, They're the only producers of stuff for American-style locos left in that scale. I have the plans for a Hudson, but I'll probably never go farther than that. 



Friends Models also has some castings for 1/2" scale. 
http://www.friendsmodels.com/


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