# Demise of Delton trains, unforseen consequences



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Nov 5, 2010

Hi all:

I was thinking of what large scale could have been, dual gauge 1:24 scale modelling.

With the demise of Delton trains, 1:24 product development stalled.

In retrospect, the LGB European product line using Gauge One *trackage* should have been dumped in favour of properly gauged 1:24 scale narrow and standard gauge trackage.
Today, we could then model dual gauge railroads in 1:24 scale.

The 1:24 scale K-27 would be a reasonable size as would the post 1920 J&S cars.

So, Delton trains had it right at the start. Their error was in not tossing out gauge one trackage.

Aristo Craft could have followed Delton with a 1:24 scale standard gauge product line, now there is a "wow" factor.

The varying rubber scale LGB ruler product, built to a high quality,* toy* LGB product should have remained in Europe.

A properly scaled American product line should have been developed by American manufactures to model American railroads to repel this LGB "invasion" !

*Actually, LGB should have introduced a 1:24 scale trackage exclusively for the North American market place to sell 1:24 scaled American prototype models. But LGB was a TOY manufacturer and not a SCALE MODEL manufacturer.*

O gauge 1:48 scale, large scale 1:24 scale, makes a nice reasoned progression of modeling sizes.

The Bachmann Connie 1:20 scale is too large for my tastes, the Bachmann K-27 1:20 scale physical size : are you kidding?

The result: O narrow gauge is looking very attractive. Dual gauge 1:48 scale modelling with a good selection of large production run & affordable die cast models as opposed to low production run beautiful but very expensive 1:20 scale limited production brass models. 

My opinion is LGB inadvertantly restrained and then ruined the development of American large scale as had 3 rail trackage in 1:48 scale.

There is no confusion in the European market place with the LGB and the other European mfgs 1:22.5 properly scaled European models.

Once the 1:48 scale 3 rail trackage and Gauge One trackage were in the market place it was too late to purge these inappropriate trackages and then replace them with proper trackage products.

1:24 scale was the way to go.

"Mr. 1:20.3" should have concentrated his efforts on replacing gauge one trackage in North America with 1:24 scale trackage.

A *1:24 scale* Bachmann Shay could have been the start of a properly scaled product line of *reasonable sized* models of North America locomotives. 

Oh well, it is all a *permanent* mess now!

Opinions?

*Be nice!*



Thank you

Norman


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Errrmmmm.... 

What perculier comments? Here in the UK we use 1:24 scale to model "Cape Gauge" Prototypes i.e. 3 feet 6 inches. The Spur II scale of 1:22.5 allows the Spur II Gruppe members to run equipment on 32, 45, and 64mm gauge track -thus it was only natural for LGB to use this scale as there was already an existing market. Only in the US is "0" scale 1:48. Here in the UK, (and elsewhere), it is 7mm to the foot. Please do some research..... 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 05 Nov 2010 01:43 AM 
Errrmmmm.... 

What perculier comments? Here in the UK we use 1:24 scale to model "Cape Gauge" Prototypes i.e. 3 feet 6 inches. The Spur II scale of 1:22.5 allows the Spur II Gruppe members to run equipment on 32, 45, and 64mm gauge track -thus it was only natural for LGB to use this scale as there was already an existing market. Only in the US is "0" scale 1:48. Here in the UK, (and elsewhere), it is 7mm to the foot. Please do some research..... 

regards 

ralph 

He did do the research..and nothing you said contradicted anything he said! 
you are just talking about two different things..European market vs. US market..

I agree with Norman in theory..sure it would be nice to have only one scale and two gauges..
but..
personally I like lots of different locomotives that are availabe, in different scales..
My two favorite locomotives are the Bachmann spectrum mogul, and the USA trains Alco PA..
With the system we have now, I can run both on my railroad..

I would have zero interest in building a dual-gauge railroad...standard gauge alongside 3-foot gauge appeals to a very
limited and tiny fraction of modelers..EBT fans would be into it, maybe some Colorado fans..but thats it..
but also many 3-foot modelers wouldnt care about standard gauge..and probably the majority of standard gauge
modelers wouldnt care about 3-foot gauge..especially "modern era" modelers..diesels and late steam..

So having a dual-gauge 1/24 scale system would mean half the customers would only care about half the models..
which cuts the customer pool in half..which cuts down cash flow to the manufacturers significantly..
which would probably mean less models available overall than with our current system..

sure, our current system has issues..but one huge advantage to it is that everyone can buy and run anything they want! 
the entire large scale product line is open to everyone..
which IMO is an advantage that FAR outweighs any disatvantages..

Scot


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Norman - your post reeks of pre-WW2 US isolationism at its extreme! 'Europeans should stick to European trains!!! Us Americans will go our own way!!' 

Sadly, for you, the rest of the Americans decided that they actually LIKED the funny-looking European stuff - I'm told that 65% of LGB's entire overseas market went to the USA. Americans seem to have bought half of the Moguls EVER made, and that was LGB's most successful model ever. 

...and strangely enough, there are a host of Europeans who have this great love of American trains in all their multiplicity. 

Again, sadly for you, so great was the take-up for these 'toy trains' that Delton went belly up pretty early on in the process, leaving its legacy of 1/24th scale old-style cars and a Connie for other, American, manufacturers to take up. 

I model North American trains in every scale from Gauge 1 up to Fn3. And I LOVE my HUGE 1/20.3 stuff. There is absolutely no substitute for volume and sheer bulk. If I could lift it, I'd happily have a K-36 running around my little track here, after all, it's a 28 and 27 foot diameter circle - plenty of room for the biggest locos you'll ever find that you don't sit behind. 

Still, you soften your comments by noting that certain locos are not to your taste. 

Well, Sir, THAT is exactly why there are so many BIG trains and in so many different scales - in our hobby we are allowed to have different tastes. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's not get our feathers ruffled!







Norman has expressed an opinion that has come up before. Large Scale is essentially "diverse scales united by a common gauge" (gee, I kinda like that turn of phrase!) If I read him correctly, what he is stating is that we might have avoided this unique problem in the model railroading world if Delton had chosen to make their own gauge of track that accurately reflected 3 ft. gauge in 1:24 scale. I would say that this idea wouldn't have saved Delton though. LGB didn't come up with the 45mm track gauge. Märklin established it near the beginning of the 20th century! LGB merely utilized what was there and did it to a relatively correct scale for them! Delton compromised so they could run on the same trackage. Well, so did Bachmann! Their stuff is scaled to LGB's so it's compatible. Gee, come to think of it, Aristo and USA are scaled to 1:29 and their standard gauge stuff is compatible (sizewise) in 1:29 with the narrow gauge of LGB and Bachmann in 1:22.5 (go figure!) Large Scale is the way it is so that everybody could run their trains together...which was exactly what happened! Don't blame the 1:20 crowd! We just decided that we wanted accurately scaled trains for our gauge! It is what it is.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Huh?


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Demise of Delton. 
Okay, sure, the NAME bit the dust, but aren't almost everything they made STILL made? 
Hartland picked up some, Arrrrggggghhhhhhristo the rest. 
Where do you think the 1:24 2-8-0 came from, originally? 
Do you know what Aristo Classic line is? 

The Delton line appears to have been built more for compatibility with 1:22.5 than an exact scale rendering. 
Put a Delton boxcar next to an lgb one, or an early USA one. 
Other than reporting marks, the big difference is floor height when you open the doors. 

Since the 1:24 line never really went anywhere, seems more likely people weren't as much interested in a North American 42" gauge scale.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I just find it amusing that so many folks find compromising on 6" in gauge totally unacceptable, but compromising/fudging on the scale of every non train item on the layout is just fine. Because of that, it often sounds (to my ear) more like Lewis Polk's much maligned "Wow Factor", than any REAL demand for 'proper' scale..... If not, then why aren't all you folks complaining to and about Ertl, Maisto, Scale Models, etc to get them to make 1:20.3 stuff? Selective eyesight?


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

You mean you actually BUY that out-of-scale Ertl, Maisto, Scale Models, etc stuff? 
And I don't buy any of the "WOW!" factor either. 
But I do have some 17/64th scale stuff. 
Now, if you want precise scale-to-gauge, that was it.....


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What I find funny is many of the Narrow Ga. purist crowd came from On30! We even have that ******* ga. here. 
I was a purist modeling in On3... 

Norman has a valid point; Had Delton developed proper ga track, there wouldn't be the mish mash of scales on one track. But there wasn't money for it. 

LGB could still exist as a grand scale while more accurate G24 would have grown in popularity and everybody could run on one another's track without having clearance issues. I doubt if 1:20.3 can run through my tunnel... Narrow and standard ga.s can co-exist. just on diff parts of the layout. 
Don't cite how all y'all have adapted as the why. Why I bet such a clever group could adapt to this just as well... 

John


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

In retrospect, the LGB European product line using Gauge One trackage should have been dumped in favour of properly gauged 1:24 scale narrow and standard gauge trackage. 
Norman, 
You are entitled to your opinion, but I have to agree that a little research would have perhaps led you to a different conclusion. 

At the time LGB was looking to produce garden railway trains, the scale of 1:22.5 was well established (and had been for 50 years: Gauge-3.) Coincidentally, their local narrow gauge trains used metre gauge, which just serendipitously worked out to be 45mm - Gauge-1 track! Amazing! 

My impression is that LGB's meter gauge products are very accurate scale models. It's the not-meter-gauge stuff that is all over the map, scale-wise.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I really like relatively modern standard gauge (steam/diesel transition) trains and Colorado Narrow Gauge. I like the fact that depending on which train I feel like running, I can bring it out and run. I don't need to have two separate layouts to build and maintain. As far as I am concerned things work out quite well having multiple scales on a single gauge track. At one time I had both HO and HOn3. Because of space problems I could only build one and that was HOn3 so all my HO got boxed up and is still in boxes.

I can now run both on my G gauge layout in the back yard and couldn't be happier. 


On two separate weekends this fall I attended steamups at Jim and JoAnne Stapletons large outside layout. The first steamup was for "standard gauge" engine and trains. The second was devoted to narrow gauge engines and trains. I doubt that they would have gone to the additional work and expense to have a separate set of tracks for each gauge or even dual gauging the existing layout. They do have one track that is dual gauge for "G" and "O".

Chuck N


PS Most of the LGB Colorado Narrow Gauge freight cars are closer to 1:24, not 1:22.5. That is why Delton, LGB and original USA cars are all very close to the same length.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I find this rather surprising bit of Mondey Morning Quarterbacking 

LGB was making 45mm track way before Delton came on the market, why would they introduce something specific;y different to the US market when there at the time was absolutly no demand for it, LGB was the 600lb gorilla of large scale, they led, everyone else followed suit. US profile items were a very very small part of LGBs overall lineup when Delton came along, 80% of their business was in Euro profile meter gauge trains.

If Delton wanted proper gauge track for 1/24 then they should have made it themselves, of course they didnt, because they figured why reinvent the wheel? LGB track was already well established, why on earth would they go against an already well established market that they obviously wanted their product to inter-mix their product with? 

To try to push a new track product that required completely rebuilding already established layouts and forgoing any intermixability with LGB just to be "scale compliant" would been a serious bit of business suicide.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The wrinkle in the argument--motive power. Few were making locomotives that could be regauged. They all were using motor blocks which prevented being able to squeeze the wheels closer together to the new gauge. Without motive power to pull the trains, a "new" gauge could go nowhere. There were efforts to promote it (Joe Crea and other prominent modelers at the time), but it just didn't gain any traction. No one wanted to scratchbuild the locomotives or re-lay the 45mm track they already had down in the garden. LGB--the 800-pound gorilla in the room--wasn't about to change the way they built their trains. Kalamazoo and Delton held a ridiculously small market share, easily less than 1% of all locos sold--and that was _with_ compromises to the track gauge. We saw how long they lasted with that; to think they'd have any better success introducing a whole new gauge doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

The other thing to remember, too, is that in the mid 1980s, "scale modeling" and "large scale" were pretty mutually exclusive concepts. There were a few scale modelers working outdoors, but the hobby hadn't yet matured to the point to where scale modeling was nearly as mainstream as it is today. (And even now, it's still a minority.) People were happy running their quasi-US-looking passenger cars behind a German 0-4-0 whose only resemblance to anything that ever ran on American rails was the big red cowcatcher. A 3" - 6" discrepancy in track gauge didn't even remotely register as offensive. No one _cared_ about track gauge at that time, which is why both Tony Ferraro (promoting 1:20 on gauge 1) and Joe Crea (promoting 1:24 on 1 1/2" gauge) found their efforts pretty much flatly ignored. The hobby had to mature past the "hey look! It's outside!" phase before the concept of scale even began to register. That really didn't begin to happen until the mid 1990s, by which time the existing track gauge had become so well established that promoting 1:20 became the only viable option for "accurate" 3' gauge modeling outdoors. There was just no way a new track gauge was going to have a chance of gaining any traction. There was plenty of finescale 1:24 models available at that point (Hartford, Accucraft, and others), but virtually no one was regauging them. It wasn't until 1:20 took off after the release of the Bachmann Shay that development in 1:24 began to dry up. That's when Hartford, Accucraft, Bachmann and others pretty much completely shifted gears away from their 1:24/1:22 stuff to focus on 1:20. It wasn't Delton's demise which stagnated it by any means. 

Later, 

K


----------



## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Hi all, 

There is, of course, nothing stopping anyone from cranking out all the 1:24 track they want to (38mm?), building a bunch of engines and rolling stock, and selling them at prices which knock Bachmann, Aristo, Accucraft, and everyone else out of the market. Nothing except inertia, varying tastes, and a whole lot of money. I'll enjoy watching. (I have been saddened watching the serial bankruptcies among companies like Delton, Lionel, and LGB, whose only crime was trying to put out quality model toys for the discerning marketplace.) 

In the meantime, garden rails, like Topsy, just grew. From tradition, coincidence, happenstance, ignorance, and brilliance. If you want finescale narrow gauge, you can run 3 foot on gauge one (1:20.3), 2 foot on gauge one (7/8) or gauge 0 (16mm). Standard gauge is 1:45 or 1:48 on gauge 0, or 1:32 on gauge 1, or 1:22.5 on G64, Build or buy what you can and want to, but don't get too serious -- These are toys, guys, have fun! 

Even in live steam, every model is a compromise, some grosser than others. I can have fun with an old Marx 0 gauge tinplate or plastic windup, and the grand kids still get off on Thomas push-along. You like different toys, or nicer toys? Great, happy to see them. I'm just happy that things worked out as well as they have. 

Sorry, I hear my engine calling, Mike


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting idea Norman. 

But then, 1/2" scale 2.5" gauge trains had died a slow death years before, with a few live steam holdouts.... Production items such as Bassett Lowke or model enginering stuff from the pen of (died 43 years ago yesteday) LBSC Curly/Lillian Lawarance or Mr. Sait or Mr. Coventry here in the US. Much of this died out by the 1930s, especially in the US.


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i find this entire thread about what delton should have done absolutely astonishing, to me, very much the cart before the horse (and this is not meant as an insult to anyone) 


the more relevant perspective is that Delton wanted to be able to sell it's product- 

and it had to be compatible with LGB, 

because those of us that had LGB first werent about to ditch that investment and buy a new gauge, regardless of scale- 
(frankly what bachman did was the more logical if we want scale models on our stack of track) 

and 
Delton provided a badly needed resource for US style stock in road names that LGB didnt get around to for some years-ie C and S to go with the black mogul,
passenger cars in various paint, etc-i was one that bought delton c and s bullet herald cars to match my at the time very pricey black mogul 

frankly what delton didnt do right was to use the lgb scale - the quality was good and the paint what most of us wanted-pullman green, mineral brown etc 

a manufacturer first and foremost to surviive has to be able to sell product-and if selling to an existing 'standard' you more or less have to at least have compatibility-
and if blazing a new trail as suggested, had better have equally good locomotives-which delton did not ( i had the original consolidatoin, whcih i really wanted, and took it back next day-ran terribly)

the modeling aspect, in reality of things at that time, was not the first concern of the company id think-im guessing that 1:24 was chosen because it was logical and 'close enough' 

one look at my delton stock and the size of the wheels tells me that it wasnt a scale model


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett - 2-1/2" gauge (or gauge 3) became an orphan for a few reasons - 1. It was either too big (for the average urban yard or basement) or too small (to perch your average backside upon and ride) 2. The expense of scratchbuilding is nearly equal to that of 3-1/2" gauge, with smaller tolerances, fussier operation, and lower hauling capacity. 3. The Great Depression caused a contraction of ALL model railroading, with less popular (ie profitable) scales being jettisoned first. 

A scale 40' standard gauge boxcar is pretty darn big in gauge 3, a bit over 21" long, 4-1/2" wide, and 7-1/2" tall from rail to peak.


----------



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

As someone said, it is what it is. No amount of gum-flapping now will change anything. With that said.. 

I agree that the "one gauge, multiple scales" thing is undesirable. By the logic of some here, I should have models in 1:87.1 (because I like standard gauge trains and have an HO layout), 1:55.4 (because I like 3' narrow gauge trains), 1:64.7 (because I really like cape gauge Garratts), and maybe even 1:36.9 (because I like 2' gauge trains too). Not only that, but I should berate any manufacturer that would dare to make ANY product which didn't work with all of the above simultaneously, as well as anyone who would dare to suggest that the situation is laughable. 

I guess that's why I spend most of my time (and money) modeling in HO. My interest in large scale is confined to scratch building 19th century narrow gauge models. If the large scale community as a whole had embraced scale modeling sooner and more thoroughly, perhaps more people would be interested, more models would be available, and the economies of scale would mean lower prices across the board. But that can't be good for the hobby, so I propose we keep playing with our trains and snarling at the folks who wish things were different. 

Like I said to begin with, it's probably too late to change things. The situation exists. People (including myself) can either accept it or go their own way. I grudgingly accept it, along with a growing number of other folks, by modeling in the completely inconvenient 1:20.3. What really intrigues me is that, while 1:20.3 has done quite well lately, 1:32 has not. I guess the standard gauge rivet counters are still in the smaller scales.


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Delton was completely correct in placing the product as they did in 1984, 1:24 on 45mm gauge, to fill a much needed US niche in narrow gauge 45mm gauge. It would not have worked any other way at that time. What is correct about this discussion is that the real crossroads came in around 1998 with the decision to go 1:20.3 on the Bachmann Shay, which had previously been advertised and even prototyped with a very poor sample, at 1:22.5. This was the turning point. The decision was to stay with one gauge and introduce a new scale into an already weak MR market place, completely unsupported by broader items like buildings, cars etc to satisfy the growing demand for accuracy (including my own cries). They could have, and I belive should have, either stayed with 1:22.5 or 1:24, and offered reguagable locos and cars from that point onward, so that the purists could run on a narrower track, while the rest wanting 45mm compatibility stayed with 45mm - one model serving both demands. What you'd have is none of the splintering we have now within a small market relative to other scales. On30 by Bachmann was an example of exactly this concieved correctly this time round, and both On3 and On30 have thrived as a result, one scale that works for both and two gauges, with a huge backup of 1:48 buildings, cars etc etc. Frankly that is what should have been considered for fine scale largescale, and yes many more of us would have enjoyed a K27 that actually fits in our yards. 

Spilt milk, said it all before. 
Move on, its 20.3 small prototypes and logging for the mass market now. It cant be fixed. 

David.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 05 Nov 2010 06:11 PM 
As someone said, it is what it is. No amount of gum-flapping now will change anything. With that said.. 

I agree that the "one gauge, multiple scales" thing is undesirable. By the logic of some here, I should have models in 1:87.1 (because I like standard gauge trains and have an HO layout), 1:55.4 (because I like 3' narrow gauge trains), 1:64.7 (because I really like cape gauge Garratts), and maybe even 1:36.9 (because I like 2' gauge trains too). Not only that, but I should berate any manufacturer that would dare to make ANY product which didn't work with all of the above simultaneously, as well as anyone who would dare to suggest that the situation is laughable. 

I guess that's why I spend most of my time (and money) modeling in HO. My interest in large scale is confined to scratch building 19th century narrow gauge models. If the large scale community as a whole had embraced scale modeling sooner and more thoroughly, perhaps more people would be interested, more models would be available, and the economies of scale would mean lower prices across the board. But that can't be good for the hobby, so I propose we keep playing with our trains and snarling at the folks who wish things were different. 

Like I said to begin with, it's probably too late to change things. The situation exists. People (including myself) can either accept it or go their own way. I grudgingly accept it, along with a growing number of other folks, by modeling in the completely inconvenient 1:20.3. What really intrigues me is that, while 1:20.3 has done quite well lately, 1:32 has not. I guess the standard gauge rivet counters are still in the smaller scales. 

Please indicate how one reaches this conclusion:
" What really intrigues me is that, while 1:20.3 has done quite well lately, 1:32 has not"

Aster continues to keep their production schedules moving forth in each of the denoted market places (US, UK, Europe, Australia, Japan)

Accucraft is currently working on the T-1, Black 5

Numerous British companies continue to strive forward with a variety of offerings
Reference G1MRA Newsletter and Journal 


As to the direction of the scales model in the large scale hobby, seems to be well established therefore the only way to change is not to purchase...don't bet on that; we all seem to empty the piggy banks often enough to keep things going as they are.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Apart from Aster still progressing with 1:32, I would have thought that MTH, with a now quite large product range, also qualifies as being part of the continuing, and growing, presence in the 1:32 branch of Large Scale. 
I suspect that MTH remaining a relatively small player in Large Scale, has more to do with MTH fans being more or less obliged to use a proprietary control system to get any realistic effects from the locos. Yes,I know MTH locos can be used with regular DC only and AC of course, but the locos are virtually impossible to track/battery R/C with any of the popular control systems. 
If MTH had used their brains and made a parallel range of locos without their own proprietary control equipment, like they planned to do some years ago, they would be a much bigger player in LS than they are.


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The premier attempt at 1:24 was Fairplex, and they gave that up: 

The Fairplex Garden Railroad is considered the oldest and possibly the largest miniature railroad of its kind in the United States and possibly the world. The railroad began as a special static exhibit for the third Los Angeles Fair in 1924. It soon became a small, hand built, operating miniature train, in true 1/2 inch scale. The small railroad continued to grow and in 1935, moved out of the Fair's tent to its present 100X300-foot outdoor location where it remains today. In May of 1997, with the help of members of a local garden railroad club, the original 1/2 inch scale was replaced with what is referred to today as G gauge in the hobby of model railroading, and renovation of the miniature railroad began.


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin touched upon the point that there were few scale model railroaders in large scale early on. When I started outdoors it was virtually impossible to find any scale modelers working outdoors. I don't think that it's any stretch to say that more than 95% of garden railroaders had little interest in what scale the trains were. Further easily more than half of the garden railroaders I came into contact with had any model railroading experience at all beyond the usual Lionel, etc., on a plywood board or around the Christmas tree. The whole focus was to run a cute lil' train through the garden and also to entertain the grand kids. 

Initially great compromise was required of a scale modeler coming outdoors unless he was ambitious enough to build everything from scratch. Note that I'm referring to the U.S. and North American prototypes here. I came from On3 plus a long association in HO to the great out of doors. You can't compromise much more than that in the 1980's. The only reason I survived was because I realized that considerable compromise would be required in order to have the robustness needed for dealing with nature full time and I liked the laid back attitude. 

1:24 scale was a seriously considered scale early on as many accessories, especially vehicles and even some doll house goodies were already available. Half inch to the foot was also a quite easy conversion for modeling over here. Of course those mostly overseas that liked 42" gauge had it made too. Precision Models imported a model of West Side Lumber Co.'s shay number 15 (which I had) and I believe also number 14. Available at extra charge were a set of Shay trucks properly gauged (U.S.) for 3 foot gauge (1-1/2" ga.) for those that wished to model the WSLbr correctly. Rio Grande Models had WS skeleton log car kits available and there were also some brass imports, all in 1:24 scale albeit gauged for 45 mm. No track, no switches, in 1-1/2" ga. which wouldn't impede a scratch builder that much but precluded anyone else from embracing the "correct" gauge. Also many of Ozark's casting offerings are 1:24. 

By its nature large scale was and is a minority market. Further segmenting such a market, especially in light of the train set running fraternity then in vast majority, simply wasn't economically viable especially when THE major consideration was the sociability of being able to run trains on each other's tracks. In fact so important was this consideration that I recall more than once those few calling for more scale adherence, even without a gauge change, being raked over the coals and charged with trying to ruin the hobby. I think the sociability issue is still one of the major considerations if not still THE most important to the majority. 

I personally would have loved to see 1:24 scale successfully marketed but it was really doomed from the start. LGB's meter gauge models were the primary source for outdoor trains and being a European company their choice was most logical. If LGB quality had been poor there might have been a chance for 1:24 to take hold in North America from an alternative manufacturer but whether you are an LGB basher or lover there is no question that the robustness and reliability of their offerings were exceptional for a massed produced product. 

As for "O" scale, I gave a lot of thought to trying On3 out of doors but my early desire for battery power coupled with lack of economical battery technology at the time quickly quashed that. Track powered "O" however was successfully done at least from the 1930's notably in England. There also were a few such in the U.S. Without trying to light the fires of track power vs. battery (I don't care how others power their trains) I think batteries are becoming small enough and efficient enough now to make O scale battery a real possibility, one I would seriously consider now if I were just starting out even though I do truly like the larger size of the various scales running on "G" track.


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05 Nov 2010 07:27 PM 
The premier attempt at 1:24 was Fairplex, and they gave that up: 

The Fairplex Garden Railroad is considered the oldest and possibly the largest miniature railroad of its kind in the United States and possibly the world. The railroad began as a special static exhibit for the third Los Angeles Fair in 1924. It soon became a small, hand built, operating miniature train, in true 1/2 inch scale. The small railroad continued to grow and in 1935, moved out of the Fair's tent to its present 100X300-foot outdoor location where it remains today. In May of 1997, with the help of members of a local garden railroad club, the original 1/2 inch scale was replaced with what is referred to today as G gauge in the hobby of model railroading, and renovation of the miniature railroad began. 

YES!

TOC, I had forgotten about this railway, and then remembered an old b&w (pre-Klambake) issue of Garden Railways that talked about this railway.

Good memory sir!


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett,

Yes, the same railroad many of us will be running on tomorrow!


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 05 Nov 2010 07:46 PM 
Posted By Curmudgeon on 05 Nov 2010 07:27 PM 
The premier attempt at 1:24 was Fairplex, and they gave that up: 

The Fairplex Garden Railroad is considered the oldest and possibly the largest miniature railroad of its kind in the United States and possibly the world. The railroad began as a special static exhibit for the third Los Angeles Fair in 1924. It soon became a small, hand built, operating miniature train, in true 1/2 inch scale. The small railroad continued to grow and in 1935, moved out of the Fair's tent to its present 100X300-foot outdoor location where it remains today. In May of 1997, with the help of members of a local garden railroad club, the original 1/2 inch scale was replaced with what is referred to today as G gauge in the hobby of model railroading, and renovation of the miniature railroad began. 

YES!

TOC, I had forgotten about this railway, and then remembered an old b&w (pre-Klambake) issue of Garden Railways that talked about this railway.

Good memory sir!


And if you ever have the chance to go there you can still see the original 1/2" scale models on display in the shed, they are HUGE models, make 1/29 stuff look small.

I'll be there tommorow, will try to rmemeber to take a few shots of them.


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

Start of RANT 

As I have post previously [somewhere in a land far, far away at a time that even I don't remember] the issue was exactly as described. NO ONE would pony up to produce 1.5 in gauge track for 1:24 scale 3 foot models. Precision Scale [PSC] in the mid 1980s offered both 45mm and 1.5in wheels sets for ALL of its 1:24 products including the K-27 and freight cars. Ryan trucks [3' 7' wheelbase D&RGW] were offered in both 1.5in and 45mm gauge. 

Unlike the beginnings of Sn3 which originated with a series of articles in 1961 in Model Railroader Magazine where someone used HO United/PFM ATSF 1950 class as the basis for some Sn3 1/2 [HO track] C-16s and built S scale 3 ft models, which eventually led Avery Norlin of McCracken, KS [Tomalco] to risk lots of money and produce proper Sn3 track and switches; no one had the willingness to risk producing 1.5in commercial track products like flex track and switches. 

I personally believe this was because so much of the "Garden Railway" hobby is routed in the SOCIAL aspect of sharing trains and running on other people's layouts. IF we did not share a COMMON TRACK GAUGE, we would be fractured even more than we are now. 

THe first railroad that we had in Herndon VA was called the "Marley Branch" of the D&RGW and had almost exclusively 1:24 brass cars and Delton cars retrofitted with Ryan's trucks and bolsters to allow ease of body mounting Kadee 820 couplers. But my wife was interested in LGB's European models, especially the RhB electrics. So 1.5in track gauge was out. 

Just think; if the 1:29 folks like Marty Cozad had true 49.49mm track gauge the rest of us would have to stay home, or sit on the side lines and watch. The 1:32 guys would have their 44.85mm track, and the 3 ft guys at 1:24 would have their 38.1 mm track. 

I know that I would not be able to indulge in my mainline standard gauge , narrow gauge in 3ft and 2 ft, and my wife's mainline passenger trains if I had to maintain layout with all these different gauges. 

You guys who think 1:20.3 narrow gauge is TOO large should look at the F standard gauge or even 7/8" standard gauge models. We still have a complete train in 1:24 scale from K-27 to caboose. It looks great by itself but is dwarfed by the 1:20 equipment. So what? 

If the originator of the thread REALLY wants to go down the 1:24 path, if he sends a PM I will put him in touch with the group of dedicated 1:24 modelers that are forging their own path. More power to them. 

I wish folks would ACCEPT that the GAUGE is what BINDS US TOGETHER, it is not something that should continually create a battleground. 

End of RANT 

Regards


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Well said Jim.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I agree with Norman's post, especially in regards to the advantages of 1/24th scale. This current mishmash of different scales on odd-sized track is wack. 

Unfortunately it's all ancient history now. Rehashing it won't change anything. All we can do is make the best of what we've got. So I'm modeling in 1/24th, using whatever I can find that close to that scale and scratch-building or kitbashing the rest. Of course, the fact I'm not tied to a specific prototype helps -- I don't have to create my own track and motor blocks trying to do 3-foot gauge.


----------



## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Nov 2010 08:09 PM 

I wish folks would ACCEPT that the GAUGE is what BINDS US TOGETHER, it is not something that should continually create a battleground. 

Amen to that!


----------



## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Nov 2010 08:09 PM 

I wish folks would ACCEPT that the GAUGE is what BINDS US TOGETHER, it is not something that should continually create a battleground. 

End of RANT 

Regards 
Here, Here I could not agree more. 


That said the one thing that I wish the manufacturers would do is put the scale of the item that they are selling so a person would have a guess as to weather or not it would meet his needs.

Andre


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Allan W. Miller on 06 Nov 2010 03:14 AM 
Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Nov 2010 08:09 PM 

I wish folks would ACCEPT that the GAUGE is what BINDS US TOGETHER, it is not something that should continually create a battleground. 

Amen to that! 

You just alienated the SM32 group....


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Nov 2010 08:09 PM 

I personally believe this was because so much of the "Garden Railway" hobby is routed in the SOCIAL aspect of sharing trains and running on other people's layouts. IF we did not share a COMMON TRACK GAUGE, we would be fractured even more than we are now. 



Give that man a prize! Right On!


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Running trains on someone else's layout is a subset of the hobby, but I don't see it happening all over. 

In the smaller scales some folks get together to run trains on each other's layouts too, but they don't try to run N scale, HO and O scale all on the same track. Or standard gauge and narrow gauge trains on the same gauge of track. 

How do the "social" folks in Large Scale get around the differences in control systems? Even if your trains all run on the same size track, there's still a half-dozen or more ways to power and control them. (track power, DCC, battery, TE, Revo, RCS, etc)


----------



## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 05 Nov 2010 08:09 PM 
ALL 

I wish folks would ACCEPT that the GAUGE is what BINDS US TOGETHER, it is not something that should continually create a battleground. 

End of RANT 

Regards 
Jim, exactly. You hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I'm in minority here with all the "amens" to Dr. Rivet's Rant. I don't see any battleground at all in posting a "what if" as Norman did. This subject comes up periodically and does no harm nor does it change anything or cause division really (unless you want it to) because what is (45 mm gauge) is what is. 

As I mentioned already previously the sociability issue is still paramount in this very niche hobby and is, I admit, something I would not want to lose either. To simply wish the gauge question had been decided otherwise for North America attacks no one. The gauge for neighbors would have still been uniform and the social aspect of running trains on each other's RR's the same. It would have pretty much settled the scale/gauge disparity in a positive way however and made every manufacturer's offerings compatible size wise. As in HO you could have standard gauge, narrow gauge (3 foot, 2 foot or other) or dual gauge track and use the same accessories for each. I personally would have liked to see this very much. If that's creating a "battlefield" so be it. Hehe I guess that's my rant.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Socialising is a bonus for some, unnecessary for others. If it happens, it happens, but I'll still have my trains.









I'm in G24 and I'm happy for you, no matter what your preferance is. I will apologise now because I built my bridges and tunnel potrals by what looks good with my trains. It never occurred to me to make them 'toy-like' 'just in case' I get a visitor with a 1:20.3 train. 

Why should waxing poetic about a what if, ever cause discord, epsecially if 'we's being' social. If ya can't behave here, why would I want to meet you in person? 

It is what it is. Asking what if, is NOT drawing swords.









Besides us newbies get to read the history.









Hey, have fun! 

John C


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 06 Nov 2010 12:30 PM 
...

How do the "social" folks in Large Scale get around the differences in control systems? Even if your trains all run on the same size track, there's still a half-dozen or more ways to power and control them. (track power, DCC, battery, TE, Revo, RCS, etc) 





Battery powered locos can run anywhere the gauge of the track matches the gauge of the loco. It doesn't matter if the track is powered or not. Of course you do have to bring the proper transmitter with you.


Same with Live Steam, with perhaps one exception? I understand some (or maybe all) live steam locos don't have isolated wheel sets. i.e. they will short out track power, if it is turned on.

DCC can run on DC track power (In theory anyway. Not my area of expertise). But can't run on dead tracks like battery power and live steam.


Pure vanilla DC track powered locos can only run on DC track powered track. 


Now if you want to run a bunch of trains on the same track at the same time, that complicates things a bit. Track power requires block control or separate tracks. R/C requires different frequencies with the old systems, but 2.4GHZ Spread Spectrum systems can run any number of trains in the same area without the worry of frequency or channel assignments. Live steam no problem. DCC, you may have to reassign loco addresses such that they are all unique.


Running more than one train at a time on the same track with the same controller by the same engineer gets even more complicated. Not only from a control system point of view, but from an operator's point of view. The odds of you either having a wreck or getting very stressed out are extremely good.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 06 Nov 2010 04:41 PM 
SNIP!!! 
Running more than one train at a time on the same track with the same controller by the same engineer gets even more complicated. Not only from a control system point of view, but from an operator's point of view. The odds of you either having a wreck or getting very stressed out are extremely good.





Then guess who gets the blame for the ensuing wreckage???


Never the operator.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Really? Talk to Stan and JJ!


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/21/aft/117891/Default.aspx


----------

