# newbie with questions



## mikeyc66 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hi, My name is Mike, and a few years ago, i got reinterested in my childhood hobby of Model RRing. Starting with some ebay sets (n scale) i quickly aquired a fairly large collection of locos, rolling stock and buildings, as well as a smal layout i built to test my skills and new purchases.It all turned out OK! Somewhere along the line, i had the idea about a garden railroad, for summer time fun... (something to do with the girlfriend who was into gardening..) 

Anyway, fast forward to the present and i have moved back to the colorado mountains, and while i have room for a decent n scale layout in my new place, i am really interested in having a G scale train, maybe this summer.

Afer much research i have concluded that; 1. Ultimatley i would like to have at least some of my trains run on Battery/ RC control (the newest Aristo craft system seems perfect!) as well as(eventually!) some live steam. BUT,2: I think due to budget issues, that a track powered set up will be best to start, and allow the running of much greater assortment of equipment (lionel "Snoopy" etc), as well as "display" running for entertainment of guests. 

I don't want to do what i did in "N", and buy a started set to find out that1: the loco isn't RC/ batt compatible (too small) or poor quality, 2: the power pack isn't powerful enough to run bigger locos, and 3: the track is too tight for anything but a small switcher.

In case you missed it at the beginning, i live at 9000 feet in the mountains of colorado, it is dry mostly, but we do get rain and a BIT of snow. I don't expect a lot of winter time running, but i am going to get the aristo snowplow as soon as i can justify it!! We do get days in the 50's even in January so... And i could watch the trains from inside while working on my N layout!

So my questions to those who have done it, so i can learn from your mistakes( and save some $$??) are as follows;
1: What do you recommend for track power source (brand, amp rating etc)? RC or not?
2: Track, best for both RC and track power (i am leaning on brass flextrack for it's versitility and durability, aristo all?)
3: How often do i need feeders for rail power? I have the space for some fairly long runs, including a "mountain line" that will have limited acsess to bury wires (it's on a real mountain, made of 1:1 rock!) Do you bury feeders under roadbed?What size/ type wire?
4: I figure track cleaning could be done by a battery powered car when it gets bad, but roughtly how often will it need it? And will running a track cleaner do it, or is there still some hand work?
5: Finally, i am figureing on using all aristo craft stuff to keep everything compatible, and maybe a battery/ RC car to run various locos that won't get converted to RC? any thoughts?

Thanks in advance, and to the other "newbie" that thought 43 was a little too old, well... i'm turning 44 this year! My mom was a little shocked when she asked me what i wanted for x-mas, and at 41 I said" a train set!" (i got it, a bachmann set that i kept and still run the loco, I converted all the cars to MT, added weight etc so they would run OK! gave away track and power supply....) I have some N scale Great Northern stuff for sale BTW!

One last thing about me; i am a construction contractor, specializing in kitchen and bath remodels, as well as finishing basements and garages and adding additions, so if anyone in the Denver / Boulder/ Ft Collins area needs help with houshold projects, let me know! If you have a garden RR and want help with it, or even if i could come check it out that would be cool!

Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will be labelled a grouchy old man if I tell you to read all the good info on the forum before asking the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) that everyone has when starting.

I suggest reading the Beginners forum, finding some good web sites to read, and you can go to my site and read the Beginers FAQs *http://www.elmassian.com...trong>**

All my best advice is there.

Regards, Greg*


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 
Welcome to MLS and Large Scale! You say you are at 9000 ft.? How close are you to Golden? The reason I mention this is that the Denver Garden Railroad Society has a permanent layout at the Colorado Railroad Museum and they run on weekends. I would definitely stop by and check them out! You have a lot of questions (all good ones!) To adequately answer some of them we will need to know what era and roadnames are you looking to model. Also, what type of "theme" are you looking for on your railroad? By this, I mean are you looking to run trains through a garden or are you wanting to make a miniature world (much like what you are doing in N Scale)? If a miniature world, are you looking to make it an "operator's layout" where you have specific destinations (i.e. point to point and/or lots of turnouts and sidings etc...) or more one where you can run trains in giant loops? 

As to powering track, going with solid brass or stainless steel track is probably your best move. I personally recommend rail clamps, which align the track and provide excellent continuity, rather than just using the slide-on rail joiners supplied with the track. The downside is that there is an initial investment that will add to an already sizeable sum that the track will cost!

Powering the track is another place where you don't want to skimp! You need at least an 18v 10amp transformer to insure good power and to be able to run multiple trains. The little transformers that come with the sets are barely able to run the trains that come with the sets! 

You've taken the first step by posting here. We have an extensive archives section of thousands of postings from the last 10 years and many of your questions have been addressed in long threads. I'm not saying we won't answer your questions! On the contrary, we _love _questions! I'm just pointing out that one of MLS's major pluses is our tremendous resource of knowledge found in the archives! Have fun browsing through it! It will probably give you ideas that will require _more_ questions but that's okay too! Good luck and have fun!

By the way, pay no attention to the grouchy old man posting above (except when he gives you some advice because, believe it or not, he actually knows what he's talking about!)


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm a DCC guy, so I can't help you with batteries. 


MRC makes a nice ten amp throttle that will run whatever you need on track power.



If you think you'll be a live steamer then you will probably want to elevate at least part of your track. Live steam is all about fiddling and it's much easier to do it at waist height!



In general, go for the very biggest curves you can.


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## mikeyc66 (Jan 22, 2010)

thanks,
I guess i should have specified more of my ideas, and claifiy that i have read a LOT of beginners forums and such, so thats where my questions are coming from. 

As to "theme" i'm thinking 1950 or so, so i can run 1st gen diesel as well as steam, with a "mountain branch" proably with a shay or something, tight curves and steep grades (real mountain i'm dealing with). Mostly freelance, but based on Co RR's like C&S, DRGW at least to start...

The main goal of the railroad would be to watch trains run, and deliver materials and beverages to guests who are working on RR or visiting house. 

Elevation change is a issue as well, as i'd like the track to eventualy go from the back deck to horseshoe pit, a change in elevation of about 14 feet!! I may have to wrap around the house once to get the grades(mountain division), even then i'll be pushing 3% and maybe more in spots! The "main" portion of the back yard is more level, but nothing i would call flat, so.....but room for a big ovalish loop/ folded dogbone (25x50, winding through trees and such)that could eventually get more sidings etc. This would be the display loop with a spur into the garage at bench level. 

My main concern is track power and how far the tracks carry the power until they need extra feeders, if at all. (200 feet?) I plan on sodering jumpers on all joints. RC and Batteries will come later, and as self contained units i assume will work on all track. I suppose the best would be to bury conduit in road bed and use for wiring switches, lights etc. Is that what you guys do?

Finally, as far as roadbase, since i need to go mostly up (down may not be possible in spots) i am planning on buying some screened gravel/ 3/4" roadbase from the quarry, and building up to within 1" or so of grade then ballasting track in with?? I am thinking screening some fines from the gravel?? 

I can build my retaining walls & higher road base from rocks around property. My experiance in construction has taught me a thing or two about dirt and drainage.....

Anyway, thanks for all the input, i am still in the planning stages, but i'll keep posted as to progress (well, other then standing/ wandering around the yard trying to see it all....)

Mike


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well jst for kicks here is a shot of my back yard and some of the things I've done to over come the slope. Later RJD




























So you see I have yard issues to over come also. As far as any other suggestions I'll let the others say there thing. Later RJD


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I am a battery dud. (That's not quite a dude.) 

Since you want to go with batteries and you're just starting out and don't already own 24+ locos, why mess with track power? Use the money you would spend on power supply and throttle for track. In addition, you'll save messing with wires.


The Aristo Revolution might not be *perfect*, but it is mighty cool. I'd go that way myself.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mike,

I'm not quite a newbie anymore and not quite an old grouch either.......well maybe grouchy but not oldy. Started with an LGB starter set on an indoor layout on a shelf. Right away went for the MRC 10 amp transformer. Next an Aristo "Rogers" because it was cheap, came with sound, smoke, tender, caboose, looked pretty good and all for $149. It's an ok loco but the sound is pathetic and now that I'm a little farther down the road, I don't think I want to stay with 1:29 scale. 

I've had some experience with an aged outdoor layout of significant size from my buddy and I would give that "track power" idea some serious thought. Especially if you're in an area that experiences freezing temps. I know some of the guys here like it, but after seeing all the connectivity issues one can have after the layout gets to be a few years old, I would encourage you to consider battery right away unless you anticipate having lots and lots of locos in the future. Some of the folks here have over 100 locos and I must concede having that many battery systems would be impractical. On the other hand, if you think you might stay under 10 for the the foresee-able future, my opinion is battery power is the way to go. Not necessarily RC. I like RC, but I also like a fully automated train that "does it's own thing". Check out Dell's "Enhanced Critter controls" if any interest: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/Critter_Control.htm. This neat little electronic gizmo enables you to push a button and the train will smoothly accelerate, and maintain an adjusted speed, pass over a magnet and the train will come to a smooth stop for 20 seconds or so and then resume its travel, call it a "Station stop", add a fully automated sound system (again using magnets) and you have a very cool fully automated train for your guests to admire and the best part is it's quite reasonable (read cheap). You can add the rc stuff later. As to track, St Aubin carries solid brass flex code 250 $199 for (12) 5 foot long sections....$3.30 per foot, best deal I've found other than maybe used track on Evil bay.Back to the Aristo trains, keep in mind 1. many folks here report there quality is poor
and 2. you may be locking yourself in to 1:29 scale

Plenty of opinions here, like Greg said, read em and decide what's good for you
Don


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"My main concern is track power and how far the tracks carry the power until they need extra feeders, if at all. (200 feet?) I plan on sodering jumpers on all joints. RC and Batteries will come later, and as self contained units i assume will work on all track. I suppose the best would be to bury conduit in road bed and use for wiring switches, lights etc. Is that what you guys do?"

I ran conduit around my layout... smartest thing I ever did, because I added air-operated switches.

I run long trains, have a steep grade (3.4%) and run a number of locos at the same time. I have a passenger train that is lighted and the 3 locos and the 8 cars draw 9.75 amps.

I use 10 gauge wire, and the conduit allows me to use the much less expensive 10 gauge you wire a house with. As an added benefit, it's outer dimension is much thinner, allowing you to run more wire.

Highly recommended.

(I guess you are thinking of brass... soldering joints is good conductivity, just do a good job soldering)...

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Mike. 

Before you spend too much money on anything check out your options. 

I notice you mentioned Live Steam is a possibility. 
Whilst most Live Steamers do not R/C their locos an awful lot do. 
You might want to consider what sort of R/C you would choose for your live steam locos before you decide on any form of power for the plastic ones. 
It makes sense to a lot of people to keep their control systems compatible. To the best of my knowledge the Crest REVOLUTION is not capable of controlling live steam locos. 
On the other hand, *all *of the newer 2.4 GHz stick type radios used with live steam locos, are also capable of controlling battery R/C locos.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

as a newbie, you might also want to read (and read and read and read) the stuff I have written at 

Technical Tips


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll second that, I have read George's site 3 times... and need to go back again! 

Greg 

p.s. you can keep your remote control systems compatible between live steam and DCC too... ha ha


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Dude simple track power is the best no hassle or extra cost of RC and battery charging just put your loco on the track ad run...........how cool and simple is that? Bridgewerk 25 TDR is you power pack of choice


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## mikeyc66 (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, Thanks a lot for all the input! As i am still planning, and i figure it will take a few years to get where i want, and technology is always changing....I think i'll probly start with the "flatter" sections this summer, and try track power to start. low cost and simple to run. 

Question about the track; i am seeing both (i think) flex track and flex RAIL. I assume the rail is for handlaid track, and requires a bender. What i want is the flex track complete with ties, similar to smaller scales. Does this require a bender, or do you just flex it in and ballast/ spike down into roadbed? And are you useing some kind of cement in roadbed/ ballast? $200 for 12 5' sections seems very reasonable, and is less then i thought i would have to spend!

George S; I have been reading your site for, ummm, days......, and all the links! Hours of learning, obviously the result of many, many years experiance! GOOD stuff! I wonder a couple things, it seems that in your articles, you are using mostly DCC, is that still the case, or have you switched since, too??? Second, it seems as though you do a fair amount of improvements/ upgrades/ fixing of most of your locos and i am wondering is that because the quaility is not good, or more that you are a bit of a perfectionist/ tinkerer who just like to improve things because you can??! Just wondering if i need to be prepared to work on stuff when new, or wait until i get more into it then implement some of your upgrades. It seems that if i buy cheaper stuff (Bachmann) i should be ready to do upgrades sooner then with Aristo.... or has overall quality gone up lately?

Thanks again for all the input, one of these days i'll try to post a few photos of the yard as is (complete with snow!!) to give a better idea of what i'm talking about. Until then, my research continues....

Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Flex track / flex rail.... same... 

Do you need a bender? Aluminum probably not, brass probably, stainless steel for sure. If you do your entire layout with it, pony up and get a good quality dual rail bender, it's not cheap, but definitely worth it. 

I have a page on them : *http://www.elmassian.com...trong>**

Regards, Greg 

*


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

hello Mike! 

flextrack - flexrail. the tiestrips of flexrail are a little different from normal tiestrips, to bend in both directions. 

you got a lot of good answers allready. 
let me concentrate on two things: 

feeders for trackpower. 
with welded jumper connections, additional feeders at any given point only make sence, if the length of the feeders are notably shorter, than the length of first feeder plus rail to that point. 
brassrail is the best "feeder" you can get. even steelrails, by their thickness, do not have too much resistance to the current. 

grades. 
don't go over 3% of grade with locos of american brands. 
apart from rack locos, the only mountain-goats i know, are the 0-4-0 Stainz locos from LGB. 
they can manage up to 7% grades with a ten aixle train behind. (if weighted with additional 2 pounds of lead)


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah ah ah......it may come as a surprise but the Bachmann Shay pulls just fine up a 6-7% grade! In fact, of my original manufacturer's equipment, it's my strongest puller by at least two cars! Other than that, you're probably right if you're referring to mainstream manufacturer's equipment. Now, if you throw in a Barry's Big Trains drivetrain unit in a Big Hauler or even the new one that goes in a Bachmann 2-8-0 "Connie" then there are a few more candidates for "mountain goat" status! The reason these units do so well is they are practically bullet-proof and you can pack the weight into every nook and cranny without worrying about gear failure! A heavy engine is a prerequisite for a stronger puller and as a plus, these drive units are quiet and smooth runners as well as powerful ones (here endeth the shameless plug.)


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## mikeyc66 (Jan 22, 2010)

ok 6-7%grades with shay? and how many cars/ how much weight? metal wheels or plastic? 

This would help a lot if i could even pull off 5 % grades for the mountain division. Cost savings on track almost equal cost of shay...I assume you are talking about the old two truck? or will i need the bigger one?

Some extra work on locos for all that power might just be worth it. Most of my trains will be loaded coming downgrade anyway... can you fit a battery power/ RC setup in shay?
MC


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Mike.

You certainly can fit battery R/C and sound in a 2 x truck Shay. Here is how I did it: RCS BATTERY R/C IN 2 x TRUCK SHAY[/b]. That was some time ago and is even simpler now.

I also have specialist installation kits for the Shay too. RCS BIK-BGL[/b] These work with any brand of R/C.

If you were thinking of the 3 x truck Shay. These are easy to do too: RCS IN 3 x TRUCK SHAY[/b].


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