# The Golden Era



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

OK, my thesis is: we are currently in the Golden Era of live steam and model railroading in Large Scales (1.13 - 1:32 or thereabout). There has never been better times regarding model availability, prices, quality, prototype accuracy, technology used on our models - namely the combination of the traditional and the most modern. It may not last for very long, but unless some major disasters happen in the world we may be able to enjoy this Golden Era for quite some time. The manufacturers of live steam apparently survived major economic crisis of 2007, and appear to be recovering. They are now in head to head competition and pretty even regarding prices, qualities and the offered range. Each has their individual character and there is no direct copying, or duplication even if they release the same prototype. But competition for the small market is already taking place now and we all - live steam toy addicts - benefit from this. Sadly, the majority of very small businesses and individual bespoke live steam and model makers is rapidly declining as most of them are retiring. However, while their bespoke models made on strictly commissioned project basis were not accessible to most of us, the models currently being released by the manufacturers or in planning are accessible to a much wider range of people. Still, they are produced in about 25-250 pieces range, which is ten times more than single model maker would be able to make. This at prices which are 1.5 to infinity less than what you would need to pay for a one off model (infinity because some models would not be possible neither at a realistic nor at any price;-)... New models are in the pipelines, and there has never before been so many different prototypes developed or released at shorter and shorter intervals. Of course, my thesis may be incorrect. You are welcome to express your opinion, if you care, under one condition - if you are frustrated because you do not like your toys, please do not post. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Zubi
I agree on Golden age having started in 1989 myself.

Sacramento and Staver are good weekends, although not taking locos on planes is still an issue. Our Seattle club is stable and running at least once a month

The new catalog from Accucraft is quite impressive. We have tune up help from TRS and other gurus 

I have a rather good stable where most of them run well and I enjoy seeing others run new locos like the challenger.

jim


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Hey Zubi - what a great idea for a thread - although I have to say that the enormity of the topic will make it difficult to do it justice .... 

I think perhaps the fundamental difference between our two viewpoints is one of timing - whereas you say that the best of the 'Golden Era' is maybe yet to come - my view is that we are now looking back on the good times. As I said in post# 15 in the Alleghenny thread ....

"I wonder if we are coming to the end of a 'Golden Age' of trains from the China and the situation can only get worse as the enormous and inevitable social changes that are happening in that country accelerate."

Perhaps another indictor that this may be happening was illustrated by Kovacjr when he said in post #13 of the Regner thread ....

"....But that's the way lately on the forum here, this forum has declined in the last 10 years. Very little actual input of new work or running trains, and a lot of complaints about all different things. Just look at the last 10 threads and where they all ended up. Almost every thread somehow ends up into a flame war or someone complaining about something."

I think he is confusing 'flame war' with 'lively debate' - but maybe he has a point. You even said yourself in post#15 of the Alleghenny thread ....

"....it seems no matter what is discussed the same deep rooted problems surface again and again...!"

.... and the caveat that you felt necessary to include in the last line of your thread opener - "if you are frustrated because you do not like your toys, please do not post" - is itself indicative of the deepening levels of dissatisfaction that, sadly, exist in our hobby today .... 

Regards.....

John


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes John, I agree with you. The end of the Golden age is near. At least from a dealer standpoint. Back about 6-7 or more years ago, sales were vast, product was flowing and people were buying including myself. People were buying 4-5+ loco's a year plus rolling stock. Many friends have not bought in years. Some maybe a loco or two in a few years. At some point you say how many do I need? Do you sell one to buy one, that was what I tried to do but never worked out. I'm down to what I don't want to sell so do I stop buying? There are things I will buy and some that I want to build. Ive started to collect and not run now. I am still working on my RR so can only run at friends and public events. My good friend Dan moved from NJ to MD and we used to run 4-5 times a week in the summer. I since hardly run, more so that I can get time to work on my RR due to operating the business.

The market is not great, jobs are not much better and our money is worth less. Increases every year but our pay doesn't. My wife is in the medical field and they are now capped at 1.5% MAX raise.

A lot of new product coming out but its always the same people that are the target audience. Ive seen quite a few older trains friends that are downsizing not growing or passed away and collections disbursed. The majority of people in the hooby are older, I am one of 5 people at Diamondhead that was under 40 when we were discussing this there 2 years ago. There is very little new people coming in to replace them. There is a huge secondary market and a lot of the stuff from 8-10 years ago is always popping up.

I miss the days of the Masterclass, posts by hundreds of people not 15-20, so many builds and alterations. Just look at all those posts back then and how many are still active members. Many left, some sometimes post but not like they used to. A large Cali group left never to return. They still build and play but are not active on MLS.

Its also grown to more expensive hobby, Accucraft used to be very cheap but quality was not as good. Now they raised prices due to the increases in China and offering a better product. This past two weekends was the meet at Jim Stapletons, typically there is 100K + of locos sitting on the steamup tracks on a SG event. Nevermind strings of custom coaches or brass cars in the yards.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

It is a fact of life and a shame that our freinds with trains are getting older or passing away...we just have to keep having fun. Our "toys" are much fancier, more detailed and better running than ever. the prices are still "reasonable" if you consider how much work goes into them. I have scratch built some engines and heavily modified others...it is a labor of love. such labor rarely can make money. I make what I want but cannot buy. I buy when I can if I can afford it. BUT I do have to focus my attention because I am not made of money, there is a lot of good stuff available.

I too have noticed a decline in this forum...Probably many causes of that. People passing along, people turning to other pass times, People too busy trying to earn a living, contention on line, changes in the way the forum works (difficulty of posting photos and finding old threads) all have their negative effect.

I am pleased to see younger folks like Jason taking a part in the hobby and look forward to good things to come.


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

Golden Age -- no doubt. And in a moment (for me) of rare optimism, I think the best days are ahead of us.

I bought my first 16mm live steam engine twenty years ago. Not a lot of options then, and even my first purchase -- a Pearse "Countess" -- was a major investment.

We all acknowledge how Accucraft changed the landscape. Yes, quality control is irregular and yes, they may have saturated the market, but they've made the hobby more accessible. I'm of the opinion that they've nudged Roundhouse toward designing models based on actual prototypes with an ever-higher level of detail.

Not bad for a niche within a niche hobby!


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## Ron Tremblay (Aug 18, 2011)

Well All I know is that I started with a Bellflower Cricket a few years ago. Then i was hooked. Then Jay had those Regner Steamers for sale. Yup im All in. Then Roundhouse then? Its A great hobby and A great time to be alive. I think they are very affordable. I just have to convince the Wife! There is so much technology going into them right now. Thats it for now. go live steam!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Golden Age -- no doubt. And in a moment (for me) of rare optimism, I think the best days are ahead of us.


I'm with Joel. Like Jason, I don't have a track, so I run at the convenience of my friends and the occasional club. But the friends I run with all seem to convert to live steam when they see my stuff!

I'm surprised Jason isn't in our camp (cheer up buddy - don't let the b*****s get you down.) He's persuaded Accucraft to build him a 7/8ths loco (Fairymead) and now a PRR Atlantic, and I am eagerly awaiting his 7/8ths scale 2' Forney. The UK and Aussie dealers are also commissioning specific, local prototypes. You can call Accucraft, or WuHu, and talk to them about a small run of your favorite loco. Carolton managed to get the FWRR locos to their spec.

My only concern is that the barrier to entry is high. Having worked with Carl on his "intro to live steam" document I realized how much additional info, goodies and knowledge you need to enjoy the hobby. Roundhouse packs a pair of cotton gloves and some steam oil in their loco boxes - they assume you can find household oil to do the axles, etc. Finding butane (imho the easiest burner option for a beginner) is a pain.
Accucraft's "Dora" is a step in the right direction - I found it much less fussy than a Ruby (though they need to fix those howling burners and make them easier to light!) But how about the 'starter' kit of things you need to make it run: turbine oil, steam oil, rags, a can of butane ? [Jason?]


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sometimes I get kinda down, in seeing all the manufacturers that have gone belly-up. Since I enjoy paging through old magazine issues, on a daily basis, I'm reminded frequently.

So I appreciate the optimism here! And, since I don't run live steam, I appreciate when new B'mann and other stuff comes out. For example, I think it's pretty neat that Bachmann found the R&D money to develop that switch stand, offered this year for the 1st time as far as I can tell. Neat device!

Still, it's a challenge for me, in the overall sense, to think this is the golden era. I'm only 8 years into the hobby, so I don't have the experience like a lot of you folks do. But in the spirit of this thread, I'll scratch my head... I think I can I think I can I think I can...

OK, if this is the golden age, the thing that comes to my mind is advances in technology. 

First, electronics. Control systems are going wireless in different ways, with the result being easier and cooler and funner ways to run electric-drive trains. And LS ones. Automation will improve as well. We're frequently seeing things develop that wouldn't have been dreamed of fifteen years ago. And at what other time could you get a hand-held tablet computer with the astounding specs offered today? 

Second, internet. We now have vast resources for community, as witnessed in this site. And purchasing of used equipment, via on-line auctions. And articles by experienced folks having their own web site, such as Greg E. and Dave B. and many others. And for historical works, wow, Google books, Library of Congress, there's no end. Even ten years ago, one would have to do a lot of physical travel to get just a fraction of available historical info today.

Third, in personal manufacturing. We can design parts on the computer and almost immediately bang them out in 2D and 3D processes. That opens up the doors to people of moderate craft skills, to make detailed precise models. And kits, if they have a mind to. It's a massive explosion, and we're seeing only the beginning. Only in the last five years, maybe less, has this avenue become really and practically available; and the field is changing constantly. 

===>Cliffy


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

CliffyJ's second point is right on. The internet was the catalyst that brought together sellers and buyers. It enabled unprecedented access to the live steam hobby. Without it the "golden age" would not have occurred.

His third point is what might carry the hobby onward, especially if age and economics force existing suppliers to retire.

Lastly, perhaps the so-called "baby boomers" also catalyzed the "golden age". We didn't have to be drawn into the hobby because we were raised on it, starting with Lionel and American Flyer, and then into the post-war model railroading boom focused on scale HO modeling. We didn't need to discover model railroading. We already knew all about it. What we needed to discover was live steam, and it was an easy choice to make once we new what was possible.

Steve Shyvers


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Golden Era? While things might be rosey for the finger burners the rest of us in G are slumming it in the Dark Ages. I cannot remember a time where things on the sparkie side were so barren. Aristo gone, MDC gone, Bachmann new production on hold, LGBs minimum presence, AML is ??? and Lionel totally useless. USAs the only one that seems to be offering anything new.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Vsmith, plastic will inevitably go extinct sooner than brass... It simply does not make any economic sense to produce unless you make many thousands. This does not mean that electric models are not being released. They are released in growing numbers in short brass series. Accucraft does this, even Roundhouse started their diesel range a few years ago and it is growing. Look at Kiss - their G scale programme is now overwhelming! Of course these engines are at price levels comparable with live steam. The same technology to produce most parts except for the power units/boilers cylinders and with plumbing. Still, plastic is not all gone, I see strong signs of Maerklin-LGB rapidly recovering. They are offering a steadily growing range and develop entirely new prototypes. Things will probably never be as good as they were 20 years ago for plastic. My advice, see the light and boil some water - for a start for some tea;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Beddhist (Dec 17, 2013)

Most Kiss models are in Gauge I, not G. I'm sure Maerklin sells more Gauge 1 then Kiss. Piko still keeps making ever more G in plastic, at prices that I find more affordable than LGB & Co.

Regards,
Peter.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Peter, that is true, Dingler also makes some Gauge I, perhaps others too. But 1:22.5 was not doing great until last year, now they have four different IIm locomotives scheduled for release and one released not long ago and still available at some dealers. Anyway, the topic of this thread is live steam and covers scales from 1:13 to 1:32. Although I appreciate your comments about electric models too. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Vsmith, plastic will inevitably go extinct sooner than brass... It simply does not make any economic sense to produce unless you make many thousands. This does not mean that electric models are not being released. They are released in growing numbers in short brass series. Accucraft does this, even Roundhouse started their diesel range a few years ago and it is growing. Look at Kiss - their G scale programme is now overwhelming! Of course these engines are at price levels comparable with live steam. The same technology to produce most parts except for the power units/boilers cylinders and with plumbing. Still, plastic is not all gone, I see strong signs of Maerklin-LGB rapidly recovering. They are offering a steadily growing range and develop entirely new prototypes. Things will probably never be as good as they were 20 years ago for plastic. My advice, see the light and boil some water - for a start for some tea;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


Somehow I cannot see a Ruby racing around my pizza without flying off like an old Marx locomotive hitting an 0-27 curve at full tilt


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

vsmith said:


> Somehow I cannot see a Ruby racing around my pizza without flying off like an old Marx locomotive hitting an 0-27 curve at full tilt


 No but a Roundhouse will! Just look at the recent video of Ron Tremblays Roundhouse Billy running on a 2x3' micro layout. Id link it but I cant find it.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Or a geared locomotive of course! Although your pizza might get cold while you were waiting;-)..., Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

I don't think we are in either the golden years or the last years of the hobby and perhaps an indicator is that a couple of months ago I bought a few MTH O gauge Mo-Pac diesel locomotives (old-new in box). I never thought I would buy another O gauge anything.

My first G Gauge was a used Aristo Pacific Southern Crescent set and track. My first LGB loco was a Mogul assembled from bits and pieces.

About half of what I own was used and there have always been various problems.

I seldom bought what I wanted but bought what was affordable. 

The best thing about this hobby is that there still is something for everyone regardless of income or space available.

In general, I think it is and always has been true that one can find the stuff to enjoy this hobby if one does not have unreasonable expectations.

When I started I had $10 bird houses for buildings and everything I bought was inexpensive (cheap).

Perhaps the biggest problem is a lack of hobby shops but we have all adapted to Internet buying.

My buying, building and running days are declining but I've been retired 15 years (with no increase in retirement pay) and I still think Large Scale is and will continue to be cheap entertainment.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

For live steam possibly. I have to agree there has been a titanic explosion in the availability of models. The one thing is that most of whom I see buying are older folks and I question how much longer?

Inevitably those items will end up on ebay but will a younger generation be interested? Hard to say. Accucraft announced a whole lot of models but suddenly it seems that delivery has all but stalled with projects getting pushed further and further back. 

I am not sure either but it seems to me that I have seen folks that do trains that have been running on gauge one track if they move on, go to either ride on (really big) or sell out and downsize to O or HO. 

I too have noted that LGB seems to have gotten a second (third, fourth) wind and that Piko offers a lot of new and wonder about that. Here is my take on that. These trains were always designed from the beginning to go around LGB R1 curves and continue that each model must make that standard. I cannot help but speculate that as some of us downsize that such models fit in reduced accommodations. Either in a smaller yard, or inside around a ceiling or similar. 

I still see quite a few catalogs offering Xmas trains of varying quality for running around said tree. Invariably these are tight R1 radius and wonder if someone does get a bit of bug then adds something more than the cheap initial realizes that a USA trains SD70 is not going to make the circle but anything from LGB/Piko will.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I'm 43. I fall into the "always known about model railroading" group, having had a bit as a child. I went into flying for about two decades, then got a Marklin digital set around 2003. I added steadily to that, but ended up with too much cleaning of track and a disappointing number of failures in locomotives. The models are well detailed, and that just seems to keep improving. Sets like this years Orient Express are beautiful - there's a lot of really tempting offerings in this year's new items catalog.

I bought LGB three years ago, due to too much track cleaning in HO. Setting up on the floor is handy, and so far my railway has more detail (people, structures) than I ever completed in HO. LGB has a number of models I want to get too, and again they seem to be improving the detail on theirs.

Last year I bought my first steam kit. Though it is thus far unfinished, I'm thinking about getting another soon. 

For me the recession was a major impact on hobby spending, and that impact is mostly done so I expect to get a few significant new models this year.

Personally, I think all hobbies will see strong growth in emerging markets, more than enough to replace any slowing in the west, and amortize tooling investment. We'll soon see plenty of Chinese, or Indian modelers putting their videos up, I'm sure.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

So many facets to consider... 

Maybe I'm just evil, but I had to post a poll.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I think one reason Live Steam is doing well is because alot of folks who had large outdoor sparkie layouts migrated over to Live Steam. Why? Because electric large scale has proven to be it's own worst enemy.

For years we were dealing with constant quality problems from almost every manufacturer. That turned off alot of folks. Then prices for plastic began creeping then leaping upwards without any corresponding quality improvement. Plastic began getting near brass pricewise. Same stuff -higher price. For them to move up to LS now meant just saving a little longer. They were already familiar with or had rc control systems already to adapt. And no longer required complicated track wiring if they were doing track power. All the rolling stock didn't change nor any corresponding structures or scenery. Just new engines. I get it, I really do. Almost every Live Steamer once broken in, runs reliability. No gears to vaporize or stuporsockets or delicate plastic parts that break off just looking at them.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Vsmith, you are correct about migration, many people who run live steam now started with electric trains. But I doubt that the 'cost/quality' ratio was the drive. Live steam is simply a far more rewarding experience. I do not know anyone who moved back to electric from live steam, although some people do both. Apart from being rewarding for a hundred years or so, it is now the best time to be there - hence this thread's title is 'The Golden Era'. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## sculpture (Jan 26, 2009)

I think that CNC machining capabilities have helped broaden the range of live steam options. I also think that 3-D printing may also be helpful in all areas of the large scale spectrum. There is one individual that is making 3-D printed bodies for ALCO Century Series locos and Shapeways offers entire diesel carbody/truck side frame sets in large scale. I can see both of these systems help fill the gap caused by larger manufactures going out of business. Add in laser cutting and we may still have plenty of large scale goodies to choose from.
Just a thought. As far as the increase in interest live steam, some of that may be due to the "non-bending- over -factor" which is an age related issue. A lot of live steam tracks are elevated in order to help make servicing and operating locos easier. The DGRS garden railway at the CRRM has a raised live steam track and it seems that at least a few members enjoy not having to put trains on the ground level tracks. This also cuts down on the groaning sounds (I do my share) emanating from older operators.

Alan


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi I'm sure that the satisfaction index is much higher, I was just thinking about other practical reasons based on the experiences of others I've read here and elsewhere. The only advantages electric has is if you run diesels or Ops


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

"the Golden Era of live steam_ and_ model railroading in Large Scales"

Hi Zubi,

I missed the intent that this (your) topic was for Live Steam. 

It was probably because I tend not to read live steam topics closely and did not even notice that you had correctly posted under Live Steam (my mistake - twice).

I tend to put live steam and metal locomotives in the same category (for me). I am afraid to run them for fear of breaking or losing something.

Whether it is an Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado or an LGB/Aster White Pass Mikado or a USAT or MTH metal loco - I am afraid to run any of them (they are all mostly shelf queens) for fear of breaking or losing a part that is no longer available from the manufacturer (include an Accucraft electric 0-6-0).

I enjoy watching Live Steamers run their locos. I even enjoy running mine if only once or twice a year. No reflection is intended for anyone else. I'm just a live steam spectator for the most part.

I think the difference is that live steamers tend to be model railroaders while (in my opinion) those who buy a lot of plastic trains tend to be less focused on prototypical accuracy (the old quality vs quantity).

I have no idea what the status of live steam is as I've always been an outsider to it.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry, thank you for pointing out this 'and';-) I think that when I was writing I considered whether to place live steam in a broader context of model railroading. But I certainly intend to restrict the 'Golden Era' to live steam. So this 'and' can be skipped and then we have "the Golden Era of live steam model railroading in Large Scales". That's OK isn't it? Now it is interesting to see that you suggest that live steamers are more prototypically minded. Apart from the obvious fact of more prototypical operation of the locomotives, I never really thought whether live steamers care much about accuracy of the rest. But indeed, I have not seen many 'Coca-Cola' painted live steam engines or Christmas consists... So this observation is good. I think that this only adds to the value of our hobby (Live Steam). More rewarding and more prototypical and I also believe more social in spirit, these quantities likely contributed to the fact that it is healthy - the fact summarised in the "Golden Era" designation. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

CliffyJ said:


> So many facets to consider...
> 
> Maybe I'm just evil, but I had to post a poll.


Cliffy, thanks for posting the public forum poll - it will be interesting how general model railroading is feeling... and thanks for giving this topic the credit! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"But indeed, I have not seen many 'Coca-Cola' painted live steam engines or Christmas consists."

zubi;

Ah, but some of us do engage in flights of fancy - such as a railroad built during the Fourth Age of Middle Earth with locomotives named for characters in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.










The Regner DeWinton is named Thorin Oakenshield, and there is an ent accompanying the shipment of Fangorn Forest Water.










Here is Gandalf pulling a similar train (before he got his nameplates).










Here is Gandalf with proper nameplates.










This car allows Loughbrau Trollish Punch to be distilled enroute.

The Brandywine and Gondor Railroad may not be prototypical, but it sure is fun!

Keep on trackin',
David Meashey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

David, ;-) I did not want to imply that we do not have fun!! Thanks for the photos - I have seen some whimsical consists and funny, original scratch-built live steam engines. These definitely are done and lighten the spirit of our hobby. Which is quite light anyway, mainly running on meths and butane gas;-)... But seriously, I have seen a lot of fun with meth loco or track fires, butane blasts and fires, charred facial hair, serious high speed train crashes not to mention frequent flying locomotives and rolling stock...;-) There is a high entertainment factor in live steam too! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

PS David, what a beautiful 'prototypical caboose' in the background!!! Could you please let me know more about it? PM is OK too. Sorry, I am perhaps more prototypically minded than I'd like to admit;-)..., Zubi


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi;

The car is actually a Bachmann Lil' Big Haulers two axle baggage car. I believe that I bought it at the 2013 East Coast Large Scale Train Show (ECLSTS). It becomes a presentable car once metal wheels and Kadee couplers are added to it. I have read about your trials with Bachmann's 1:20.3 scale box cars, but the Lil' Big Haulers may actually be more robust. They are made for children to play with.

I left the original Short Line Railroad graphics on the car. In my version of Middle Earth, the Short Line RR connects Dale with Lake Town. There is another Tolkein themed garden railroad named The Lake Town and Shire Railroad. I just suppose that The Lake Town and Shire interchanges cars with The Brandywine and Gondor.

Best,
David Meashey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

David, I see, that is a cute combine! Very fitting for your thematic RR I think. Yes, you are right, the problems with Spectrum cars were limited to metal castings. Plastic is tougher. I do hope that this is limited, perhaps one batch problem (Murphy roof). But they stopped making them altogether I believe. Could you also tell me about the B&HR consist in the second photo? Specifically car #101? Thanks! Zubi


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi;

Those photos were taken at Steve King's 7/8ths scale, steam, and battery gathering this past June. The cars you asked about are some of Steve's scratch built Maine two foot gauge cars. I am not well-versed on the Maine two foot gauge railroads, but I do know that Steve is an excellent builder. Steve has also built live steam Forneys from scratch. I think that car 101 may have been used as a way car or caboose on the prototype.

Perhaps Eric Shade will read this thread and chime in. Eric knows much more about the Maine two footers than I do.

Best,
David Meashey

P.S. I'll have to sign off after this post. Got practice for special music on Sunday afternoon tomorrow (Saturday) morning.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, now a lengthy reply from me. Early on in my life I found out, if I wanted something badly and finally bought it, the thrill of owning it decreased exponentially over time. However, whenever I built something, it stayed very dear to my heart. Of course my first attempts in scratch building looked horrible. Using cheap tools from the home improvement store and missing input on how to do things severely limited my success. 

The turning point came soon after I finished high school, when my dad got me into a 6 week abbreviated intensive apprenticeship with a local machine shop. I went through using a file and other hand tools properly up to working on lathes and milling machines. All this within 6 weeks! After this experience I had the necessary knowledge/skills to make proper models. For several years I built HOm replicas of German meter gauge locos. 

Soon before I relocated to the US I started my first live steamer, an A-Climax with the proper skewed bevel gears. Over the years I built some more locos (not as fast as Bill Allen), most of them posted in MLS and had lots of fun doing it. Instead of putting money into ready-to-run equipment I invested in lathes/milling machines etc. 

Later on we founded the informal group EDH, all members dedicated scratch builders. So what has all this to do with the "Golden Era". First of all we can build whatever we want. Secondly whatever goes wrong, there is nobody to blame other than yourself. Most important: Adding CNC to mills/lathes, laser cutters and 3D modeling software/3d printing has become so affordable that scratch-building is now even more fun.

20 years ago I started a little railcar in HOm and shelved the project as the side frames are so complicated I did not even dare making a pattern for a resin mold. During a vacation this year I tried to master the skill of designing in 3D (a steep learning curve), modeled the side frames and had them printed in "frosted ultra detail" by Shapeways. They came out perfectly and a set of 4 just cost a little over $10. 

Exploring new ways of making stuff is great fun. Recently we started casting with Zamac. Many of Bill's wheels are made this way. We used plaster molds, a technique Dennis perfected. Now I needed 30+ wheels for my Guinness flat cars. As making that many plaster molds would have been prohibitive, we started experimenting with steel molds. The very first attempts were frustrating, but soon we had the process under control and made the rest of the castings without a single failure. 

Dennis added CNC to his mill and converted a cheap laser cutter to accept dxf files (with a little help from me). This adds tremendously to the capabilities of the group. The only downside to this "Golden Era" of scratchbuilding is the dwindling supply of small brass and other stock material here in the US. Luckily I can get this stuff when I visit Europe. Coming back my baggage gets always searched, as brass hex/square/flat rod and Welsh steam coal seem to be suspicious to the TSA .
Regards


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess you'd say that I'm in the last stages of addiction - no, next to last. I haven't bought a milling machine yet.

The number of purchases are way down unfortunately the budget isn't.

I think Henner has a great point. I started out building a layout and then running trains. Working on the layout never got old (but I did) but running trains lost it's appeal.

Then I bought my first steam engine; a little Accucraft 3 cyl. Shay. That engine is still the one I bring out when someone wants to see a steam engine run. Runs like a top after all of these years.

After a couple of purchases I had to try building a kit. Aster came out with their Shay and I went into the next stage of addiction, building kits. If anyone comes out with a kit for a geared loco, I'm buying it.

So bottom line, I don't buy as many things now but it still cost a lot.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Joe, a new Shay kit? A great idea! Perhaps a live steam Master Class-like with 3D design and manufacture? Hmm, I am not certain this is doable, but I am sure there is market for new Shays. Another Alishan Shay? They are sweet machines, I saw them in Taiwan. There are many people enquiring about the announced WSL#10. Although it is still years away... And a big and complicated engine - it will have to be in a higher price class. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

David, thanks for the info! Now I see these are 7/8 Maine prototypes. Apparently Bridgton & Harrison Railway - very interesting caboose/combine - I need to look it up in books or on the net. Hope the practice went well and the Sunday concert was great! Best wishes, Zubi


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi,
My fantasy kit right now would be a Heisler. I have two shays now and a climax.

It's that or a steam powered stern wheeler for the nearby lake


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Regner has a V steam motor you can make a heisler! Ive though about it myself. They are fly crank driven so you only power the inside axle.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

If anything, I was being critical of myself for not having noticed you posted under live steam.

I normally don't pay much attention to live steam topics but click on Active Topics which sometimes puts me into a topic I did not notice and sometimes into an old reborn topic without noticing that.

I think there has to be a different mind set with live steamers because it involves much more of a commitment when compared with my flip a switch and run trains mentality.

Perhaps the difference is that I don't put much of me into my trains and layouts. I can switch to another hobby (usually with a change of seasons - or health).

Cheers,

Jerry



zubi said:


> That's OK isn't it? Now it is interesting to see that you suggest that live steamers are more prototypically minded.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry, no problem at all, I am happy that a few people commented on electric locomotives too. The brass segment of these is apparently growing too. But my intention is to discuss live steam, because this is my primary area of hobby interest. Although I happily collect electric models too, but never run them anymore - too simple;-) - as you note it is a matter of a flip of a switch. Live steam is more involving, you need to have the fuel, water and oil ready prepare the locomotive, oil it. Fill the locomotive with fuel, oil, water, light it up, watch while the pressure is rising, and only then you can 'turn the switch', and often nothing happens;-) you have to clear the cylinders... etc. Today's locomotives are easy to run, but running on coal is still for the experienced. I believe it was Marc Horovitz who compared coal steaming to practicing Zen... And you do not give up this kind of a hobby easily, I becomes a part of you, for many of us including myself It did. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Henner and Joe, I definitely agree that making your own locomotives can be fascinating. This has been most profoundly shown by Kazo Hiraoka in his seminal works. Including one on building a Heisler. I had a pleasure to meet this gentleman and he most kindly presented me with one of his books especially autographed for me! https://flic.kr/p/zGf5G2

There are other books on the market, but I believe that Hiraoka San are unique in that they describe how to make sophisticated models using no advanced machinery. Perhaps the most funny thing is that he actually is not a steam enthusiast. He just wanted to have a hobby and to show that it is possible to build these steam engines using practically no tools at all... 

While our hobby used to be much more builder centred, it has now become more commercial and consumerist. I personally do not see this as a problem. Perhaps because I am not in a position to build myself. But I definitely admire the skill of others when I see their models. I remember until today how fascinated I was by the model of the 'Sri Gunung' (Mountain Queen) Mallet which I saw some 20 years ago at an exhibition in Utrecht if I remember correctly. The model was overwhelmingly beautifully made by the builder and you can only imagine how large this narrow gauge Dutch Mallet from Java was when built for 3.5inch gauge... http://nmld.locaalspoor.nl/pix/nsm_large_1622.jpg

At that time, I did not even suspect that I would be interested in live steam some day;-)... 
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The only thing that worries me with respect to live steam is the ability to _repair _our fire-breathing dragons. They're mechanical things and parts wear out. The prototypes spent 20% of their lives getting repaired and rebuilt over the years. You needn't be a machinist nor really have much in the way of mechanical skills to enjoy live steam today, but that lasts only as long as the bearings and seals on your locomotive. Once those go, what do you do?

None of my Accucraft locos came with assembly instructions, so if I need to repair something, it's pure guesswork to figure out how to get to that which needs to be repaired. Fortunately, I'm fairly mechanically inclined, but not everyone is, and there are always a few "tricks" that folks should likely know about. There seems to be no repository for that kind of information. I'm still up the creek if it were to come to needing to do anything more than light machining to fabricate a new part. New rods and kingpins? That's a bit out of my league, but pretty important parts on a steamer.

I love to see the number of new locos coming out in live steam. I'm not likely to buy one any time soon, but it seems the business model of producing short-production-run locos at "reasonable" prices is sufficient to keep things afloat. But I think there needs to be a little more attention paid to parts, or if not parts, drawings so parts can be fabricated when things wear out. 

That, and I think folks who do have the mechanical chops to completely overhaul a steam locomotive are going to see _their _"golden era" last for quite some time.

Later,

K


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

That, and I think folks who do have the mechanical chops to completely overhaul a steam locomotive are going to see _their _"golden era" last for quite some time.
Later,
K 



Keven,Thank God for Ryan and His Father Charles,They have started in the past 10 Years a Premo service to the Live Steam Community," TRS Services"
You can not get any better than Them to Make,Fix or rebuild Your Live Steam Engine.they have the *GOLDEN STEAM SERVICES,*and with there services they bring us to enjoy the "golden era of live steam"


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

K, you raised a very valid point. Our live steamers, if they are run, will only do so if properly serviced. And parts will wear out. Starting with o-rings, washers, later bushings, etc, etc. Cast detail parts break. Accidents happen. Etc. Etc. Manufacturers do have some stock of parts and can help, but for many older models they already have run out or are running out of spares. Further, currently smaller and smaller numbers of locomotives are build, which inevitably leads to very few parts for them, if any at all... This already is and will become a growing problem. As Bob pointed out, services such as that by Charles and Ryan become invaluable. Of course, a lot of maintenance can and should be done by the owners and operators of these locomotives themselves. Aster set an example of how the locomotive should be properly documented, but their business objective was and is to build kits. Others deliver RTR and do not provide exploded drawings and other helpful instructions. With an exception of Roundhouse, which does have a website support for most common problems. Accucraft US mainly counts on Cliff to fix everything. But this will have to change and services such as TRS will have a lot of work in the coming years, I agree with this. 
There is a lot of potential there as technology is becoming so sophisticated now. I am just dreaming aloud, but in principle, it should be possible to disassemble any locomotive, be it Roundhouse, Accucraft or Aster, and have it 3D scanned. This would make documenting the locomotive parts feasible. Most of the difficulty in producing exploded drawings is actually drawing the parts. Now if such 3D scanned parts could then be shown in some kind of a CAD software which could be manipulated to show how they are assembled together, in principle someone could produce an assembly manual 'a posteriori'. Even more is possible - such computerised 3D renderings of parts could potentially be used to reproduce parts - with altered tolerances and size (for example a couple % extra in size could be added to accommodate casting shrinkage). I am not saying that anyone will actually do this, although I hope they will - this would be one way to keep literally many thousands of our precious locomotives from degrading from wear and lack of spares. In principle, the manufacturers themselves could see the light and devote some more attention to documenting their products also past products in the above suggested way. Most however are busy producing new and new releases, and these days they only update us using their internet pages (some more frequently than others;-).
But perhaps in a moment of reflection will come. The least they could and should do I think is to compile at least an extended catalogue or a book about their history and their products. This idea I had for a long time, and I suggested this to a couple of people, but a few days ago I saw that one of the small but fairly known UK builders actually did exactly that - he is publishing a book about his life work. http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/products/peter-angus-locomotive-builder It will not be helpful for people who want to repair his locomotives but at least is a beginning showing that documenting the enormously rich subject of our live steamers is worth doing.
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Once upon a time if you wanted a live steamer you had to carve one out of mild steel or brass. Those who participated were intimately familiar with their creations and how to assemble and repair them because they built it. In some ways live steam may become imperiled by similar maintenance issues that bit us sparkies in the kester. Namely people buy what they themselves cannot fix due to the lack of available replacement parts. The difference between the two is that all things metal are easier to mill anew if you know how, or know someone who knows how to get that done. 3D computer scanning makes repairs that much easier. In the near future it may be possible for us sparkies to repair our plastic fantastics thru computer modeling and 3D printing, but that's assuming we will still have some source of G gauge motor blocks to build around or replace what broke. Given that there are Century old live steam locos still running today. The long term dynamic is definitely in favor of the finger burners.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Didn't the Romans invent the railway using horse-drawn wagons? Perhaps the real answer is to dispense with metal or plastic entirely, and just breed horses smaller?

Starting now, before it's too late!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Perhaps the real answer is to dispense with metal or plastic entirely, and just breed horses smaller?"

Big Red One;

They would still leave droppings similar to what is in a hamster habitat! And that is just the solid waste. They would have to be fed, watered, and bathed. And then there are the vet bills. Cute idea until you start to consider the maintenance. Plus you would have to get someone to tend to them when you went on vacation.

NAH! I favor keeping the pets and the trains separate, but it's your railroad. Have at it. The only thing I want live on mine is the steam. Now miniature android horses just might work. I wouldn't mind having an android version of Trish.











Have fun,
David Meashey


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

East Broad Top said:


> The only thing that worries me with respect to live steam is the ability to _repair _our fire-breathing dragons. They're mechanical things and parts wear out. The prototypes spent 20% of their lives getting repaired and rebuilt over the years. You needn't be a machinist nor really have much in the way of mechanical skills to enjoy live steam today, but that lasts only as long as the bearings and seals on your locomotive. Once those go, what do you do?
> 
> None of my Accucraft locos came with assembly instructions, so if I need to repair something, it's pure guesswork to figure out how to get to that which needs to be repaired. Fortunately, I'm fairly mechanically inclined, but not everyone is, and there are always a few "tricks" that folks should likely know about. There seems to be no repository for that kind of information. I'm still up the creek if it were to come to needing to do anything more than light machining to fabricate a new part. New rods and kingpins? That's a bit out of my league, but pretty important parts on a steamer.
> 
> ...


I don't really agree with your analogy with full size locomotives, since the operational duty cycle is much lower with models. However, I absolutely agree with your premise that, for continued success of the live steam hobby, an essential requirement is to be able to maintain them in an operational condition. Futhermore I think part of the problem facing us today goes beyond merely fixing wear and tear, it also depends on having an operational locomotive in the first place.

In the last few years, part of the buisness model for train suppliers who are reliant on China to source their models has become invalid - and that is the availability of 'cheap' labor. Wherever you look back over the history of our hobby, the various 'Golden Ages' right back to that of Basset Lowke before WWI, importing models from Germany for a predominately upper middle class consumer, have all had one thing in common - the ratio of the income of workers to that of consumers has been of the order of 10:1. In China today, the ratio of workers wages to that of the target markets has reduced to between 5:1 and 2:1 and is rapidly decreasing.

Sure, there will still be a 'Golden Age' for Upper middle class consumers who can quite happily spend upwards of 50% of the puchase price of their models on having it professionally 'fettled' - but how many of thse 'fettlers' are there? - I can only think of perhaps 6 people in the whole world to whom I would entrust my newest loco to in order to ensure it is fit for purpose. And the number of owners capable of fixing their own locos is in rapid decline due to schools and learning institutions selling off their engineering workshop facilities for fear of 'elf and safety' and liability issues.

There can be no doubt that the range and quality of *concept* of the models available to us today has never been better, but one of the major consequences of these escalating production costs is the detrimental effect it has had on quality control and I'm not confident that the true significance of that is recognised by the manufacturers.

There's a world of difference between a quality control operative sitting in front of a production line of peas, headed for the canning factory, weeding out the deffective peas, each pea rejected being considered a *success* because there will always be bad peas in nature - and that of an operative rejecting out of spec. connecting rods where each one rejected can be considered a *failure* because the wasted time and cost of the production up to that point could have been avoided.

Of course - a true 'zero deffects' policy is not practical in the everyday world - in fact I can only think of one instance of it's successfull application - NASA's 'Apolo' program. Even Boeing and Airbus have to quantify how many fatalities per X million passenger miles are acceptable, otherwise the assocciated costs would just simply drive them out of business.

The trick is to engineer out potential problems long before the parts are subjected to inspection - as someone on here recently quoted the great W. Edwards Deming - "you cannot inspect quality into a product".

So my conclusion is that the particular Golden Age that we have just experienced is over for all but the most economically able of us until we can re-establish the historic wage differential between producer and consumer.

I already suggested we look to India, but that was rejected - maybe we should be looking to those highly gifted metal smiths working away in the backstreets of places like Iraq and Afganistan producing high quality firearms with nothing but hand tools and a highly erratic electricity supply ....


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Disclaimer: I haven't been around the gauge 1 live steam hobby long enough to add much in the way of historical perspective from first-hand knowledge, though perhaps I do have a few comments to make which may be worthy of a read.

*On the issue of "Made in China" . . .*

In the early stages of the industrial revolution, quality products were made in Britain or Germany, France, Italy. If someone stated: "This looks like it was made in the U.S.A.," the comment was a term of derision suggesting an inferior product. Only in time, did "Made in the U.S.A." suggest a high-quality product. 

Many of us have been around long enough where "Made in Japan" meant a crappy product worthy of a sneer. Today, a Japanese product is assumed to be a superior product. Does anyone remember early Korean automobile products, such as Hyundai and Kia automobiles? Crap originally; decent to good quality now. Anyone have any doubts about Samsung or Lucky Goldstar?

The Chinese products coming out with Apple or Sonos or TP-Link labels on them are absolutely first-rate products. Can anyone in here afford to buy a lathe or milling machine not made in China? If it weren't for Chinese manufacture, we would not have any good quality machining equipment at reasonable prices.

(I buy my eye glasses from Firmoo in China and they are excellent at about 1/6 the price of the local optometrist.)

But yes, the standard of living in China is rising rapidly and the cost of goods is going up . . . just not exponentially, fortunately.

*On the issue of manufacturing costs . . .*

Thanks to cheap computer technology and reasonable quality {Edit: industrial and} hobbyist conventional and CNC systems, we can continue to expect a quality end result to be better in the future than in the past and cost to be reasonable *so long as there is some demand.*

Look at what Shapeways is doing. If you can learn how to draw it, you can have it made for you.

The machinist of the future will be a computer savvy guy with clean fingernails who no longer smells of cutting oil!

*Market size is the real problem . . . *

We have touched on this in the *"So how many of us are there?"* thread I started some time ago. It seems to me that the core problem is the loss of interest in antique trains.

Ever higher quality manufacturing is cheap if one can make 500 items at a time . . . and it will continue to be economical. But to make 50 or 100 of an item at a time? Really?

We are in *The Golden Age* of an ability to make things of an extraordinarily high quality for a reasonable price, but we {Edit: appear to be} heading for *The Sunset* as far as demand is concerned.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> The only thing that worries me with respect to live steam is the ability to _repair _our fire-breathing dragons.


I'm not too worried about the long term maintenance. I just read RK's thread on 3D printing his Baldwin 0-4-0 with sintered steel/bronze wheels - printed at Shapeways. As time goes by, my guess, we'll find someone starting an archive of 3D printed parts that fit our locos in the places where they wear out.

The manufacturers also have skin in the game. It's in their interest to make the drawings available for parts that wear out so that a small specialist firm can reproduce the problem items. Bachmann discovered it was worth having a "parts" website (though it did take 10 years of nagging for them to get onboard!)


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Given the huge popularity of Thomas The Tank & Friends for years with kids I think the future of Gauge 1, etc., including live steam trains is not as bleak as portrayed by many. It's just likely the interest will skip a generation, maybe two. So make your live steamers last for them they will need to begin with what can be resurrected to steam again and carry on from there. I'm not sure the current Accucraft, Roundhouse, etc. makers will last until these kids are age ready. Maybe other Accucrafts. etc. makers will emerge. Bob Weltyk can attest to the excitement of kids of the millennials seeing Thomas The Tank at steamups.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

You want talk about kids getting excited about Thomas, check this little kid out, watching Bob Weltyk's Thomas train...






He went on that way for the better part of a half hour, until he ran Bob out of steam.


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