# Another newbie



## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

My wife gave me a LGB starter set for Christmas and I have questions. I have a design drawn up and priced out my track but once I have the track what is the best way to actually layout it out? I have seen pictures when PVC pipe is used for the layout or do I just start putting the track together on the ground?

Thank you,
Steven


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I started on the ground, some still is. As I aged I moved half to elevated. 

First a good ballast is made from Broken rock, the sharp edges allow it to form a solid base as it 'locks' together where smooth pebbles tend to wander off. Really they do! Train vibrations shake 'em apart. 
It's best to lay a weed blocker or barrier cloth under your stones, helps them feel at home and stay, see above.... am humor. 
The PVC method is best when bending flex track to fit your design, it's harder with sectional, because you have to match the track curves with out the natural easement (spiral curve) between tangent and curve. 
Welcome Aboard, your wife is a keeper! 

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

do I just start putting the track together on the ground? 
As John says, you can put it on the ground, until you decide finalize details like the height, tunnels, ballast, etc. Or is that already in the 'design' you mention ? 
John mentions 'broken rock' - it's called different things in different areas, but it is the dust from a rock crusher. Crusher fines, rock dust, and #9 fines are some names I have heard. The landscape guys often sell it by the yard for use under stone paths. 

PVC pipe is tricky - there is a better way (imho) using plastic lattice parts to make a "spline" that fits under the track and elevates it above he ground. 

If yu google "site:mylargescale.com spline roadbed" you will get some threads that discuss and show the various ways to make one.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I'm not talking about actually building the track on the PVC just getting the layout down to where I know the curves will be. I do have it designed to where there will be elevations so I will need to make a raised section which I will put on boards to lay the track on and didn't know if it works better to put it all together or use PVC for the layout.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Steven:

Welcome to MLS. A couple of comments from someone who has been running trains outdoors for about 30 years, first in the Denver area (10 years) and the last 20 in Virginia. I have always used track on the ground with ballast. A trench several inches deep with weed barrier lining filled with crusher fines (Virginia). In Colorado I knew a place along the road where I could shovel decomposed granite in the the back of my SUV and I used that directly from the car to the trench.

The ladder works fine too, I haven't thought that I needed it, but it is a good option.

Make contact with locals!!! They know what works well in your area.

Plan for drainage. Heavy long lasting rains didn't bother me in Colorado, but occasionally I have a river running through the Virginia layout, it does clean out most of the leaves and pine needles.

Think long and hard about the types of trains you are going to run in the future. If you want to run trains other than a starter set, you will need larger curves. I have 10' diameter curves and wish that I had gone larger. The 4' diameter curves in your starter set pretty much limit you to the two axle cars and engines in the starter set. Longer engines and cars will not traverse the 4' diameter curves.

Ask questions here and locally. Just remember that we all do things differently. Some differences are subtle and some are significant. There is no single correct answer for each situation. You will have to pick and choose what you think will work for you from several, possibly conflicting answers.

Chuck

Instead of PVC to layout your mainline, you can also use a garden hose.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

You should start off with laying your track on the bare mostly flat and level ground. Keep it simple and get your railroad up and running. Using a weed blocking cloth as John mentions will help keep the weeds and grass back from the rails at least to begin with. Using the broken rock ballast will help in leveling the track and make it look more pleasing. 


Yes the mountainous layouts look great but can take months to complete and you may loose interest before ever getting to run your trains. The PVC Pipe and spline systems are great when elevating your railroad, but save that for later.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Steven, if you use sectional track, like I did, you can simply lay the track out on the ground and mark the route with stakes or spray paint. 
I chose to use the trench method similar to what John was describing. Since I had trouble finding the crushed rock described I used "paver base" from 
Lowes. So far so good. 
 
Yes, the elevated method has real advantages as you get older and the getting down and up (especially the up) gets harder. 
Either way, the roadbed is as important as the track.
Welcome to a great hobby!

Wayne
Knackered Valley Railroad
Long Island, NY


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

You are all ahead of me. This is way before I actually lay my track down for running and adding ballast. I'm just in the phase of finding where my curves and straight sections will be so I can mark the ground to get to the point of cutting grass out and/or elevating it.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I have been trying to find a local club around the pacific NW in upper Washington state but haven't found any yet.


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are in the upper north west of Washington state, there is the Greater Vancouver Garden Railway Club in Canada. They also have a wab site. Regards, dennis.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

You may wish to look at this site, it has very nice information well organized on getting started and making those many choices we need to make 

http://familygardentrains.com/primer/index.htm#intro 

Regards 

Jerry


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

You may also want to watch the Mark Found video series mentioned by Vance Bass in the current Garden Railway magazine. Even though it's British it is really well done and covers many aspects of the hobby. It, at a minimum, might give you enough insight to know what questions you need to ask next.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I'm about two hours from Vancouver and it is a hassle going back and forth into Canada.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I have checked out this site. Thanks.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

Tried to post a picture of the site I have picked out for the train and I can see it in my profile but don't know how to get it here in this post.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Put the track together and lay it on the ground, the curves are measured in mm not feet, best to see the actual look. Avoid reverse curves; cute but with out a straight section in the middle can cause coupler and tracking problems. Use a marking can of spray paint that shoots down to out line your plans.... er track. 
Pics need to be out of your hard drive on the internet, then use the pencil in a mountain icon in a photo editor (pop-up box) Found several was except in the Quick Reply at the end of the thread. 
At the bottom of a page there is a small box with a + sign and Add Reply, in existing posts on the right side there are Quote and Reply, these all open the editor w/ Icons where you type and post pics and emoticons... 

John


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## Crisolite (Jan 9, 2008)

Posted By Camanoyard60 on 06 Feb 2014 10:10 AM 
I have been trying to find a local club around the pacific NW in upper Washington state but haven't found any yet. 

What area of upper Washington are you in? I'm a member of the Puget Sound Garden Railway Society and we have members from the Bellingham area in the north to south of the Olympia area.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I am up on Camano Island. I have sent an email to the president of PSGRS and it was returned undeliverable and one to the VP a week ago and never received an answer so didn't know it the club was still around.


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## Camanoyard60 (Feb 6, 2014)

I had thought about putting the track together and using the inverted yard marking paint but didn't know if this was the best way to go. I will give that a try once I get all my track. Thanks.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I found it hard to visualize at this scale, my last scale was On3 and a 30"r curve was a nice sweep, now 10'D reminds me of 18"r in HO when small locos run on it. 

I live in the desert and my ground was hard enough to lay ballast on it. On a slope I laid out my track and then went back and raised lower areas. Where I could I used rocks to contain my ballast and trestles where it was taller than my rocks. 

Some folks use wood as a sub road bed, others use concrete and as you've seen pvc pipes. Ladders and splines allow for sweeping curves and the transition between straight and a final curve. Best used with flex track you bend to fit... 

Here we will encourage you to do what works best for you.... 

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Camanoyard60 on 07 Feb 2014 08:20 AM 
I had thought about putting the track together and using the inverted yard marking paint but didn't know if this was the best way to go. I will give that a try once I get all my track. Thanks. I don't think there is a 'best way'. We all try our own approach - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ! Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

A proper surveyor working for the railroad would use stakes to mark the (future) track location. Works for us too, and you can mark on the stake the height of the RR above grade. To level it, some use a laser level and others do it by eye with a carpenters level. (You can also get a 'hose level', which adds a couple of transparent tubes to each end of a garden hose and lets you check that each end is the same height.)

But there's no reason you can't just lay the track on the ground to get an idea how the design will work, and use marking paint to record the location.

If you decide to lay it on the ground on a trench filled with crushed rock (like the paver stuff from Lowes mentioned above, but cheaper,) you can get a 'trenching shovel' with a 4" wide blade that makes short work of the trench digging!

And finally, if you'd like to put a photo in this thread, send me a message with your direct email and I'll give you mine, and I will upload your photos to an online web space and post it/them for you.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

When I recently expanded my layout, I used the flexible PVC pipe method. I think I read about it in a few places, including an article by Jack Vertucci, a GRR author.
You buy several pieces of small diameter PVC pipe (I used 1/2 inch Schedule 40) along with the pieces that join them together. Then layout your track plan, using stakes to hold the pipe roughly where you want it, and/or for elevation setting if you have grades to deal with. No glue used, just friction fit. As shown:










In my case, I had to compensate for a grade change, so I build a low retaining wall to lay track on










I used some of the pipe to run wires through for track power and future building lights.

Hope this helps

Jerry


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The PVC pipe method is good for laying out railroads you intend to build using flex track. It's not ideal for folks using sectional track, since it's harder to bend the PVC to the specific geometries of sectional track. 

I used PVC when I laid out my current railroad back in 2005. Going into its 9th year, there are definitely some things I've discovered that you should watch out for. 

First, if you're going to use it as an anchor for your track, anchor the PVC to the ground often, and the track to the PVC periodically. The PVC pipe--being pipe--has a round cross section. As it moves with thermal expansion and contraction as well as frost heave, it tends to roll up over the ballast that surrounds it. This leads to it taking on a scalloped profile as it rolls up between the supports. I think I put my supports every three or four feet. If I were to do it over again, I'd put them every 2 feet or so. I've done this on sections that have been prone to shifting issues, and that seems to have helped keep things more stable. 

The track, on the other hand, needs only be anchored every 5 - 10 feet. I found the track wants to move a lot more as it expands. If it's anchored to the PVC at routine intervals, it's more prone to take the PVC with it as it moves, which leads to the scalloping problem. From a practical standpoint, there's no _structural_ support from the PVC to the track; it's too week for that. The structural support for the track comes almost entirely from the ballast the track sits in. So, the PVC is there pretty much only as a periodic anchor to keep the track from moving too far afield, or from being pulled up if tripped on, etc. A screw into the PVC every 5' or so seems to keep things where they need to be. I would recommend putting this screw through a tie section at or near the end of the section of track. This way if the ties pop loose from the rails (and they likely will), you can more easily get to them to reattach them to the rails without having to re-string half the ties on the section of track. Also, don't think you need to screw the track firmly to the PVC pipe. I've found it better to leave the screw just a little loose, so you can level the track as the seasons change and things shift. Again, the PVC isn't as "solid" as one might think, so it may twist as it moves under the track. 

Also, I'd recommend putting a screw through the pipe couplings. Since I put mine in, I've noticed a few areas where the pipe has come disconnected under the ground. When this happens, sometimes the ends work out of the ground, or point up, or otherwise put unwanted kinks in the subroadbed, which leads to uneven track. 

I keep thinking that if I were to rebuild the railroad, I'd likely bite the bullet and use the "ladder" method mentioned above instead of the PVC pipe. At the same time, I've managed--through trial and error--to work out the kinks of the PVC method, and it's certainly very simple and inexpensive. Being in the Pacific Northwest, your climate is at least a little more temperate than mine (Colorado), so maybe the effects of expansion and contraction might not be as great as they are here. 

Later, 

K


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I used PVC pipe to lay out as above and used sectional track, but my lovely wife had given me a dual rail bender, so I was able to make the curve I wanted and use the rail bender on the sectional track to follow it. 

Jerry


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Camano Island, that should be an hour plus north of Seattle, WA. You are on the right track trying to contact the Puget Sound Garden Railroad Society (www.psgrs.org)...but because of the time of year, you may be catching people that aren't doing much yet (maybe workshops). I noticed from their calendar that there are several events in March and some individuals are having "open houses". They listed phone numbers, so you might try calling and leaving a message or getting someone to give you some solid information on who might be in your area. 

I find that when you are a "newbie" and you try to design something on paper...well, you'll change your mind hundreds of times. Chuck, Randy and Wayne all have a lot of experience and once you get started, they can help with a lot of ideas and "fixes". I think that when you start out you just try putting something simple down and seeing how you like the "feel" for it in your backyard. Depending upon what you end up buying (types of engines and rolling stock), some of the issues of minimum curve diameters, elevated vs ballast and ground mounting, battery vs track power and how you want to add scenery, will start to fall into place. Visiting other layouts and getting ideas is great...I always take my camera. Ask lots of questions...and remember this is supposed to be fun. 

Ed


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