# Regulated Throttle Control SEVERE VIBRATION Question



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Starting at the beginning setting CVs. 
Hartland Loco (Dutchess)  First time on DCC. Never run on a track.
 
Reset the decoder. Reset all CVs. Want to start fresh.
Slowly brought the speed up. About step 11 (on the throttle indicator) it started to vibrate harshyl, as if it were being pulsed at about 5 per second.  Slowed the throttle and about step 7 the vibration stopped with wheels slowly turning.
Changed to Standard Speed Control. Runs smoothly.
 
Are there some engines that cannot tolerate RTC? I went through the process of incrementing CV2 as explaned but did not help. This engine is definitely expecting lower voltage than most G. It has a 12V motor. I am using a 10 cell NIMH battery.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There are some motors that kind of freak out a bit. I'm not sure what's going on electronically, but they do. I've had similar issues with some Bachmann motors (2-8-0 and 2-6-0). Changing to standard speed control cleared it up there, too. As long as it runs smoothly under one of the settings, I'm happy.  

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Please configure your QSI BEMF parameters, there is a post on the QSI solutions site (which is down), and there are programming tips that explain this in detail on my site. 

If you have problems, I can help you on this thread. 

I DO understand what is going on. You do not have to change to standard speed control. That will stop the jerkiness but you will not have as good low speed control and start speed. 

Read this page:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...mming-tips* 



You should also have the latest software, what version are you running?

Regards, Greg


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

OK. Will do. Thanks again for the assist. 

Removed the motor block this AM thinking that I possibly had it meshed wrong. It was off about I tooth on the worm. Picked up a connector to make it reasonable to remove without dismantling the whole loco. It is now RIGHT and runs smoothly on pure dc. (DC operation was smooth with the mis-mesh) Quartering is good as it is impossible to get off due to flats on the axles. 

The QSI manual says BEMF is not supported. Is there a better manual than level 4_5_0? Any recommended book I need to get? 

Didn't get anything done this afternoon as I needed to pick up connector and take the LOL shopping! Will attack it after dinner.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

BEMF is supported. It cannot be called BEMF due to a suit from MTH. Yep, there is no better manual than the one you have. 99% of what is in there is correct, even though it says it's for HO. 

RTC and STC are the 2 modes it can run in. RTC is BEMF... trust me. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Let's see MTH, invented Back EMF 40+ yrs ago? or was it before that? I heard about it at least that long ago! This whole industry would be better off without courts!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, MTH sued everyone, and the idiot patent office gave them a patent although as you state, BEMF was around many years before MTH. 

But now the MTH people will complain to the moderators I am bashing MTH again. 

Can't win, ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Made some progress and got most of the jerkiness fixed. Most of the time spent was basically studying the manual and getting comfortable. 
Hartland has a comment that pulse power may damage the motor. I remember some coreless motors wouldn't handle pulse but I don't think the motor is coreless. 

Had to set CV2 to 0 due to the start voltage being so low. Its a 12 V motor and at 12v runs like a scalded cat!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, had to do that on one loco too! Weird because many locos have a start speed around 8. 

That makes it a little tougher, you might change the "min bemf speed" CV that is mentioned there 

There is still a bit of jerkiness I cannot completely dial out, but the slow speed operation is much better in my opinion with BEMF (RTC) on. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

As I changed many CVs I wondered if there was any way to save ALL the settings? Like once you get it RIGHT save all for just in case. 

Also the headlight and reverse light are backwards. (I DO have the wire on the right terminal!) 
Do some of the downloaded sound files also have CVs configured for a particular engine? This decoder came with only Steam 3010 listed. 
Headlight comes on when in reverse. Saw the post detailing reversing them based on a Bachman that was wired different. I will do it in the AM before demo at our club meeting tomorrow. 

Also, when using the programmer is a motor load needed or alllowed? I was told that a load is needed but the motor would seem to overload the power source.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you're using the Magnum interface board, couldn't you just swap the wires for the headlights? Reprogramming the board per the instructions on the Bachmann forum would work, but the only reason I had to jump through those hoops in the first place was because I was going through the Bachmann socket. The thing with using those values is that they're specific to the K-27; how it's wired through the socket where the motor's backwards, too. If your motor's not wired backwards, then changing to those values may not remedy that problem. You'll have to go through and figure out the value yourself for your particular needs. Each state (Forward, Neutral from Forward, Reverse, Neutral from Reverse) is two digits of an 8-digit binary number. The instructions for doing that and translating that binary number to the CV value are in the .pdf manual you downloaded. 

Is the "programmer" you're referring to the QSI PC programming interface? If so, it's got its own power source, and can run the locomotive for programming without issues (at least without issues that I've encountered.) Also, if you've got that, you can save your decoder settings as a file on the PC for later. (If you've got the PC programmer, programming the headlights is dirt simple. I forget what tab it is, but you just click what you want each state to be. (Alas, I didn't have that when I did the K-27. Just as well, as it gave me a crash course, but...) 

Later, 

K


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

The programmer I have is the little USB attached unit. Quantum. I loaded two programs. First one they call Quantum 2 Firmware Upgrade Application. The only thing it seems to do is allow manipulation of the sound portion of the decoder. Second program is Quantum CV manager. Definitely can set CVs easier than from the remote. The power supply for this unit is 12VDC @ .5amp so it appears to be unable to handle motor power. 

My reason for dealing with the lighting issue with CVs is to learn CVs. Sure, I can switch one wire on the Magnum and be done with it. The 'concept' is not difficult, the main problems I have is finding the info in a 272 page manual and understanding what it is that I need to change. (my background is electronics and computers and many of the terms for trains are new) 

Also my intro to DCC was about a year ago with an entry level Digitrax set that I worked with to put DCC in an Aristo FA-FB-FA consist. (a friends engines and system) Even the manufacturer said the manual supplied was poor. BUT I managed to get them working (with DG583 decoders and Sierra sound cards) and the speeds matched. Had to build opto-isolator boards for the Sierras, and completely rewire the engines. Quite an experience. It convinced me that DCC was the way to go, but NOT with THAT equipment! 

So far, I am quite impressed with the QSI line. Looks like you can configure almost anthing any way you want. BUT right now I am learning the basics and have a lot to learn. I just went back and re-read the CV Manager manual. Starting to make some sense of it. Looks like I need to re-read EVERYTHING! (no small task!) Need the figure out how to crawl before trying to run.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Al to answer your questions, it seems that you have to have some load on the motor leads, I have had programming fail when I disconnected the motor. Remember that the motor current is controlled by the QSI, so it does not automatically take a bunch of power. I believe this is just a checking procedure, but that is a guess. 

Yes, the "sound file" is actually a complete flash memory image that also contains default CV values. The sound programmer software allows you to change CV's and they STAY in the file. You can save this file. One advantage of saving this file after changing CVs is that when you reset the decoder, it will go back to YOUR defaults. So you can set the loco address, and things like the mute volume, which are 2 things I always do. 

Remember this is all in the Q2Upgrade program. 

I have no idea what Kevin means by "If so, it's got its own power source, and can run the locomotive for programming without issues (at least without issues that I've encountered.) " 

The power supplied by the "wall wart" power supply for the programmer will not run the loco, it's a much lower power, just like other DCC programming tracks and programmers. 

The other program the CV Manager, helps set CV's with a menu system, convenient if you don't have a DCC system, and also more convenient for some of the more complex programming. The interface is a little goofy in my opinion, but at least it's there, and works in service mode and operations mode. (Although I have not gotten the ops mode to run the loco) 

Regards, Greg


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I have no idea what Kevin means by "If so, it's got its own power source, and can run the locomotive for programming without issues (at least without issues that I've encountered.) " 

Just for clarification, I'm referring to the QSI programming interface I reviewed on page 100 of the April 2010 (current) GR. I hooked the little black QSI box up to the USB port on my laptop, plug the power supply into the little black box to give it life, then run the two wires from the output of the little black box to my test track. I then set the locomotive on the test track, fire up the CV manager software, and use the virtual controller to run the locomotive back and forth for programming. There's no other power supply involved--just what comes with the CV programmer. (The instructions clearly state not to use any other power supply.) I wouldn't use it to run a railroad, but for running one locomotive with no load to make sure all the CVs are set where you want them, I've had no issues. 

Instructions I followed: http://www.qsisolutions.com/pdf/qProgrammerInst.pdf 

Al, I see where you're coming from relative to wanting to learn DCC. The QSI manual will definitely be a good help in that regard. I'm still muddling through it myself. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I see what you are talking about Kevin, sorry. 

I will revise my statement... the output of the "wall wart" power supply is 12v at 500 milliamperes, I have no expectations that this will run a G scale loco. Many G scale locos will use a 1/2 amp with the decoder and some lights alone. It's a wonder you were able to have any movement. This system is designed to program their full range of decoders, and it probably works OK on HO locomotives. 

I would not have any expectation that my G scale loco would even turn over with 1/2 amp after the decoder, amplifier and lights are powered. Some might, but I would not count on it. 

Al, I'm doing that install of the SI labs driver right now, will let you know if it all works out at least on XP. I would not worry about learning all the "big" manual. Use it to find things you want to tweak. I made notes to myself (on my web site) of the things I use, and some of the tricky things I will not remember every time. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

DCS is much easier


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And less capable and less customizable and harder to install and limited in sounds and no way to add extra lighting functions and on and on. 

I understand all the steam loco sounds are the same on DCS... 

The newer QSI files will come with these parameters set as default. Of course, you cannot tune DCS in the same way. Thank our lucky stars we can fine tune to accomodate strange motors. 

Don't go there Chuck, DCS has lots going for it, but can you plug an MTH decoder into ANY loco? no. Can you use it on any loco without a flywheel being attached? no. 

Can it handle reverse loops? no. Will the loco not run if you put it down on the track the wrong way? no (actually that's not true, it will take off a max speed, completely uncontrollable) 

I don't come on DCS only threads and say DCC is better. 

I don't write the moderators whining about you guys attacking DCC. 

It's not funny based on the complaints about me "invading" DCS threads. 

Greg


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

1. I don't even know (or care) what DCS is. Sounds like some manufacturers perversion of a widely accepted and proven system. My understanding is that DCC is well supported by a large portion of the market and BUNCHES of info and equipment is available. I am comitted to DCC and plan to not change. Easier generally indicates less flexible and done according to some manufactures way. Not necessarily the way YOU want it. I'm a 'Burger King' guy and want it MY way! I will NOT go with any 'proprietary' product. 

2. OK so a motor load is needed. That clarifies it. For my testing I am using a small 12 volt lamp. 

3. The supplied WalllWart then will probable run THIS loco. I put a milliamp meter in series with the 12v battery and at full speed and sound at max it drew abt 350ma. It will probably not power any of my other locos. 

4. I have no other DCC equipment. At this point I want to use on board battery with R/C. I have been watching all the members of our club clean track and don't want any parts of it. And the continuity problems of track power never seem to end. I haven't been able to convince any of them to solder jumpers between sections of rails and put an end to their problems. So I see clamps on top of joiners and you know what that eventually does. My guess is that by the time you buy a good power supply and clamps for every joint that batteries are VERY competitive cost wise. I guess that if you have 100 locos that's another story! 

5. I just sat down and again tried to read the CV Manager users guide that came with the programmer. After going crosseyed from reading the 'Z scale font size' I downloaded and printed it on 8.5 x 11 paper. Then I read it and understood how to get started. To start with I had not done 'File - New'. Not logical as I would expected it to read the decoder when started. So NOW I will get somewhere! 

6. The DCC ref manual is good and very complete. Looks like it is meant to be a REFERENCE manual like its title says. But also provides some idea of what CAN be configured, (everything) however I need to first learn what the needs to be changed to obtain the desired result. The PIDs are an example as I realize it affects motor smoothness but still have little feeling for which value does what. Looks like playing with them it will come with experience. 

7. Looks like I need to install a plug to allow attachment to the programmer without opening the tender as I have completely isolated the track power. This will make it a lot easier to make changes. I have a reed swith allready installed underneath to turn off the radio . 

We had our monthly club meeting yesterday and my loco ran 3 hours with 6 LGB cars. After having played with the CVs for 2 hrs and the 3 hr run the 12v nimh battery read 11.9V. Lots of juice left! It ran fairley smoothly with only a small amount of uneven speed at very slow speed. The range was at least 200 ft. I couldn't see the train or hear it and didn't feel like crossing the road to try to see what the max range was. IMPRESSIVE! Looks like the QSI choice was a good one.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I tried running my USAT GP9 from the programmer. It would turn on the sound and lights, but trying to go to speed step one would overload the system and reset the decoder. 

The loco was on rollers. 

It's surely nothing that was ever designed for G scale, so if the decoder resets when you try "moving" do not be surprised. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, would a booster of some kind help in this instance? 

Later, 

K


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Check this from QSI. 

http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/qprogrammer/q_prog_booster_wiring.html


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

NOW, what brand booster do I want to buy? Are boosters from one manufacturer compatible with other manufacturers? (other than the plug wiring)


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would go with a complete DCC system, not just the booster half. That links shows connections to several systems. I use NCE, and you can get a 10 amp booster, but doing this is not the same as having a hand held throttle. 

You could buy a cheap MRC booster, like a 3 amp one, but that could be marginal with one train, and you would not have consisting capability, etc. etc. 

Regards, Greg 

hmm... you could use an iPhone or a PDA as a throttle if you already had one though... That and a booster would be an inexpensive way "in"..


----------



## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Have to wait on a full system. I think I will have some problem with the family CFO!


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You could buy a cheap MRC booster, like a 3 amp one, but that could be marginal with one train, and you would not have consisting capability, etc. etc. 
I'm just thinking in terms of just programming the receiver, so it'd need only have guts enough for one loco. Thanks, both of you, for the link and info. I'll remember that if I get into programming the hungrier locomotives. (Fortunately, being a narrow gauge steam guy, that's probably not going to be much of a concern.  ) 

I like the iPhone idea. Wonder what you could do with the new iPad, and an on-board camera??? 

Later, 

K


----------



## grandpopswalt (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Mar 2010 08:29 PM 
Yep, MTH sued everyone, and the idiot patent office gave them a patent although as you state, BEMF was around many years before MTH. 

But now the MTH people will complain to the moderators I am bashing MTH again. 

Can't win, ha ha! 

Regards, Greg 
How in the world can anyone be given a patent on a phenomenon inherent to motors and generators. BEMF (Back ElectroMotive Force) or sometimes called CEMF (Counter ElectroMotive Force) has been with us since the first electric motor was constructed. Now that's one lawsuit that would be worth fighting if only to show how ridiculously litigious we've become. 

Walt


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Walt, it's unbelievable, but if you research it, even the NMRA got involved showing prior art to prove that BEMF has been in use for a long time. 

Anyway, I believe the suit is handled. 

Kevin, for programming the loco, you can run service or ops mode. Ops mode means like running on a powered track, service mode is the traditional low powered, independent track, where no address is necessary to program the loco and you can read CV's. 

I suspect that is why they gave enough "oomph" and implemented that mode. So, having an ops mode allowed them to have a little pc-based throttle. 

Normally, I prefer to use service (programming track) mode, so that I can read the CV and it gives me more confidence that I am communicating. In the case of the QSI, where it can be set to announce the CV setting, that's not as necessary as on other decoders. 

But this could be done to run in the mode Al asked. 

I have seen the 3 amp MRC boosters for about $150... I have not checked the cost of a 10 amp NCE booster, it might be close in price. You could do that Al, and then later buy the other components, although you do get a break buying the set. 

But, this could be a cool way to "ease" into the investment. 

Regards, Greg


----------

