# What is white metal?



## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

I realize that 'white metal' is probably a loose term, and there is not one answer to this question, but I would like to cast in metal, and I'm hoping that there is an easy way to make solder stronger by adding something to it. I remember reading something last year about adding something, but could not find it in the archives. Any ideas? 

Thanks, 
Matt


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Mostly zinc. 

"Zinc#3" is Zinc, Aluminum, Copper, Magnesium, Iron, Lead, Cadmium and Tin.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Tom. 

So maybe a better question would be: Is there a reasonable way to make solder stronger by adding components? 

Also, does anyone have a source for white metal to cast?


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt, 

There used to be a white metal that could be cast at about the temperature of boiling water. You could make molds from wood and even strathmore board. It was called "Cerro Bend" and later version "Cerro Safe". It was quite popular for detail casting on the stove during the sixties. I don't know if it's still available but you might try a Google search.


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## jtutwiler (May 29, 2008)

Check out this site: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=462291 
You can get 1/2 lb of Cherro Safe for about $20 

JT


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## rangerjoel (Jan 4, 2008)

Penney's are readily of a local source of zinc. Any penny minted after 1982 is almost all zinc. I used to use them for metal casting all the time. Good luck. 
Joel


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## Snoq Pass (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=462291 
Same link from jtutwiler, only active.


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## John Huebner (Jan 2, 2008)

There are multiple types of "white metal" used for casting....while I don't know about what to add to solder to make it better for casting, but I do know that Micromark has casting metal ingots in their catalog.... 

http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Department&ID=122 

Sure, none of it's "cheap", but it is interesting to see the different melting temps, and the mixes of metals used: 

Type R lead-free Crown Pewter (92% tin). Melts at approx. 575 degrees F. Can be melted with propane torch 

Type 280 tin/bismuth alloy; lead and cadmium free. Melts at approx. 280 degrees F 

Type CT Almost pure lead. Melts at approx. 500 degrees F. Can be melted with propane torch 

Type 160 tin/lead/cadmium/bismuth alloy. Melts at approx. 160 degrees F. Can be melted with a candle flame. Extremely low temp. allows this metal to be poured into molds of clay, wood, even cardboard. Can also be poured into model RR locomotives to increase traction weight.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. Wondered what to do with all those zinc pennies. Somehow, I always get more pennies than I spend. I've been sorting the copper from the zinc ones for years.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Isn't it still against the law to willingly destroy any type of currency minted or printed in the U.S.?


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

You are correct, Richard. The Secret Service has been notified of this thread./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

YOW! I guess I better hide my weapons of mass destruction before they get here


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

You _do mean snips for cutting up pennies, riiigghht?_


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

you can only cut up a few pennies with snips. A torch on the other hand!


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Wellll, I just got off the phone with American Tin & Solder Company. They were very helpful and patient with this newbie. I ordered 11 lbs of a pewter white-metal (ATS 88) for $11/lb plus $9.30 in shipping. He said it should be plenty strong enough for train wheels/tires. We'll see if it was money well spent, or money I should not have spent. 
If anyone has any hints on how to cast metal, besides preheating the mold, pouring from as high as possible and plenty of vents, please let me know. 
I guess I'd better get started making molds! 

(I'll keep you posted on progress or failures.) 

Thanks for your help, gents! 
Matt 

Edit: I forgot to mention how helpful Tekcast Industries was, even though from the beginning of the conversation he knew I was not purchasing enough from them (at least 25 lb min.) He spoke with me, giving advice for at least ten minutes with no hope of a sale.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rkapuaala on 06/10/2008 10:19 AM
you can only cut up a few pennies with snips. A torch on the other hand!





Muuh ha ha!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Tommy plays with fire!


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

Another source of scrap for casting is old Trophies made 
of "Piuta" not to sure of the spelling, old mugs as well, 
check out the old Junk Shops for old Trophies, if there 
"Engraved" then they are not much good to most folks, you 
should be able to pick up the lot for a song. 

Regards, 
John.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John R on 06/11/2008 6:17 AM
Another source of scrap for casting is old Trophies ... 

Regards, 
John.




That's a great idea, John! The wife has a bunch of old trophies in the attic that she never looks at..


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I just got time to check out that site Matt. If you're casting wheels and tires from this stuff, it might be too soft. Looks like most folks use them for bullets and to determine bore diameter and rifiling. I would also be concerned about the lead content. It doesn't list the metals used in the alloy.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hehe Mom has a big box in her basement labeled, "Tom's Dusty Trophies." 

(None are related to athletics.)


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rkapuaala on 06/11/2008 10:09 AM 
I just got time to check out that site Matt. If you're casting wheels and tires from this stuff, it might be too soft. Looks like most folks use them for bullets and to determine bore diameter and rifiling. I would also be concerned about the lead content. It doesn't list the metals used in the alloy.

Richard, I assume (and hope) you are talking about the Cerrosafe selling website, and not the 'American Tin & Solder' site: American Tin and Solder (can't figure out what I'm doing wrong with the link, but I sure love the new software 
It does list the lead content on my item as 8.5%. I do not generally chew on it while casting, so I thought it to be a safe enough level. Others will, I'm sure, disagree. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  Let me know what you think of the alloy, if you would. 
Take care, 
Matt

_(Matt

If you're going to use that format you have to use the HTML version.

Display text goes here

If you just want to use the UBB/BBC tags then use the following format.

[*url]URL goes here[*/url]

Less the asterisks of course)_


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

If you have kids, it is wise to stay away from alloys containing lead. No matter what the level. Then again, the ancient romans used to chew on lead and were known to enjoy the taste,,, Coligiala for one was a bigger eater of lead,,, not sure that caused him to go crazy later on in life, but one has to wonder.


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## John R (May 17, 2008)

I know what Rkapuaala says about Lead content concern, but 
in my opinon to older folk that really is a load of Horse 
Pellets as the amount of lead we have handled over the years 
should have killed a dozen Horses by now and not all of it was Bullets!. 
I do believe the younger generation should give Lead a little respect but thats all. 
I know a lot of you chaps will howl "Bloody Horror" at that 
but just think a while how much lead we handled as Kids and 
nobody give a Tinkers Cuss at all!. 
Lead is Dark Grey in colour and wieghs in heavy for it`s 
volume!. 
Gold is Yellow in colour and wieghs in heavy for it`s Volume. 
I wouldn`t mind betting more people have been killed or 
mained by Gold use then Lead, not including "Wars"!. 
Lead is a soft Heavy Metal that has a lot of uses around 
the Home, Fishing, or Modelling which should be the issue 
here not health. 
The "Do gooders" got the lead taken out of "Antifouling 
Paint" and many Wooden Boats have lost there good health, 
they`ve had it taken out of "Gloss Paint oil based" and 
we are stuck with inferior paint. 
Sorry Chaps but my hackles rize up when I here or read how 
stuff that has been around 100 years and used by all is now 
a Sudden Killer, Keep this rubbish out of our Hobby!. 

NURSE!, Can I have my pills now and I`ll go back to my Ward!. 

John.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2008)

The "Do gooders" got the lead taken out of "Antifouling 
Paint" and many Wooden Boats have lost there good health, 
they`ve had it taken out of "Gloss Paint oil based" and 
we are stuck with inferior paint. 
...Keep this rubbish out of our Hobby!. 

i fully agree! 
i grew up in a house, where every single waterpipe was made from lead, and the only shortcomings from health, that 
i suffer are from sports or from work. 
or... thinking twice... might be my overweight is caused by lead?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

John, 
I didn't mean to get your hackles up. I did mention if he had kids. 
It does seem that we humans go to extremes when it comes to certain things. We either ignore their dangers and create more and more uses for it than needed, or we are hyper vigilant to the point that we forget the true value of the thing. 
I would argue that everything in moderation though. Lead in pipes, and paints, and toys is dangerous for the young because the paint gets old and chips and you know kids, they'll put anything they see in their mouths. Lead builds up in your system and leads to nuerological disorders. I serioiusly don't want it in my drinking water because of that. I don't mind it in my crystal though since it is inert. 
I don't mind using it for fishing weights, bullets, soldering circuits, or weights for engines either. 
I believe that they have been doing a lot of work on improving marine grade paint. Copper is a much better base than lead for 2 very good reasons. 
1. Its not toxic to humans an animals 
2. It is not only corrision proof, but actually retards the growth of acquatic parasites like barnacles and corals and stuff. 
Lastly Gold, is none toxic to human physiology, but quite toxic to human morales. The upside is a kid can put it in their mouth with absolutely no dangers, where the down side is that some adults can't be around it without getting corrupted. Look what happen to Humphrey in Lost Treasure of the Sierra Madre


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2008)

...erm... if copper would not be poisonous, why would it hinder growth of acquatic parasites like barnacles and corals?


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rkapuaala on 06/10/2008 10:19 AM
you can only cut up a few pennies with snips. A torch on the other hand!




Hmmm? Cutco Super Shears will do it or at least they used to?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif 

Chas


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Korsmen, 
It has something to do with electolisis and the oxidation of the copper. I don't know a great deal about the process, only that it works better than lead. Its not a new discovery either, apparently ancient ship builders used thin layers of the metal to cover certain parts of the ships hull for the same reason. The paint additive is more economical and can be spread on existing hulls by a team of painters instead of copper smiths.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

thanks.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Most important part,,, just noticed I failed to type in,,, the organisms don't die, they just can't hang on to the copper. The electrolysis and the oxidization some how messes up there natural bonders.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Copper is as toxic as lead. It just doesn't travel into the body as well. 

Of course, if you're looking for weight, Osmium and Iridium are the heaviest metals


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, 
That is actually a very irresponsible and incorrect statement. 
In order to reach a toxic level, you would need to digest more than 10 mg of copper a day. 
Lead toxicity on the other hand is measured in micro grams a unit of measure that is way smaller than mg. 
So while your statement that copper is as toxic is lead is incorrect, if you consume more that 10 mg (digestible mg not something that passes through the system like a penny) you are looking at possibly croaking, or at the least being rendered unconscious with some palsy like effects following recovery. 
Lead on the other hand causes learning disabilities, chest pains, head aches, lethargy, insomnia and in the worse case comas and seizures.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

That's cause it goes through. Needs to be another form to get to the cells.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

bottom line gram for gram Lead is way more toxic than copper, regardless of form. You maybe thinking of copper sulfate, which is toxic to fish.


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