# Aster Mikado Kit



## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I am going to be getting an Aster Mikado kit from Royce. After the Huckleberry steamup, where I got to run Fred Gandolfi's Aster Mikado I really found out how much fun alcohol firing was and what engine I really wanted. Do any of you guys have any tips for building the Aster Mikado kit? I did get the axel and tender pump kit. 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Make sure all the holes that should be threaded, are threaded. I have assembled two kits and one of them had two parts with unthreaded holes. Of course, the ones that were unthreaded were the ones that are the hardest to get to with the screws and I spent a lot of time assuming I did not have them aligned correctly. 

There is one other tricky part to get together and I spent a lot of time getting quite upset to my stomach before I realized how EASY it is to assemble them... 

The Walshaerts valve gear has a curved link with a forked Radius rod that fits into it and a small square Link Block between the forks and contained inside the Curved Link. You have to place the fork inside the link and then slide the Block down one fork tine halfway into the link and then push it sideways so it will fall between the tines. I had a terrible time because every time I tried to slide it sideways, it fell over and then would not fall between the tines. ARRRRRRGH! TWENTY MINUTES of: put in the fork, lay the block on it, tip the fork so the block slides into the link, it falls over, remove the fork, shake the block out, drop it on the floor, hunt for it, do it all again. 

Then I discovered that the small screwdriver that comes with the kit could be inserted into the link from the side and into the hole in the block to keep it vertical. Then it could be slid sideways and down between the tines. 

The first one took me 20 minutes and 3 seconds, the second one took 3 seconds. The second engine also too just 3 seconds per side. 

Don't be afraid to file off burrs around punched out parts... especially the Link Block (it should be smooth on all the edges, but don't file it smaller, just break the edges a bit!) Also the paint seemed to have subtracted a wee bit of width from the frame axle box horns. A light, fine file will do. I used the file on my Swiss Army Knife for all of it... it is not too agressive. 

Mark Horovitz wrote a review of the Mike for Garden Railways Magazine back when the kit came out. I would heartly recommend reading it. I think it used to be available on his web site, but I could not find it just now. 

He said he felt that the kit was not for beginners and that had me quite nervous as I had purchased my first one before I read the review and I was a klutz assembling plastic models as a kid. I think he also said that Aster expected the assembly to take between 20 to 40 hours and he felt that was a bit short. He also listed some errors in the assembly instructions... if Royce does not provide them to you, say so and I will get them to you somehow. 

I decided to spend no more than 1 hour per evening and maybe 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday afternoons just to make sure I didn't "burn out" on it. I assumed it would take me a couple of months to get it done. 

I started on a Tuesday night. I read the whole instruction manual and studied the assembly drawings (and made markups per Horovitz's article). I then got a bunch of plastic cups (ice cream cups... low and wide so they won't tip over easily) to hold some of the really small parts and the bags of screws. I kept the bags of screws and such in alphabetical/numerical order on my table so I could find them easily. The parts for each step of the instructions all come in one box per step. That was the first night's "work"... that and being mesmerized by the beauty of the tiny parts!!! It should not have taken me 3 hours to do this step, but I spent way too much time admiring the parts... and it is a good indicator of how well I kept to my plan of just 1 hour per night. 

By Friday night I had the chassis running on air, but discovered I had missunderstood the instuctions in setting the valve gear and when I put it in forward, expecting to catch it with my right hand, it went backwards and almost into the glass front of my china cabinet! 

By Sunday afternoon, I had it boiling water and running on steam. It took me less that 20 hours to do the assembly. (This was without the axle pump, but with the tender pump.) 

The second engine... well it took me slighty OVER 20 hours to assemble it. 

Two reasons... 

ONE, there were two parts that were not threaded and one was the smokebox base where you have to slip the screws deep into the frame almost blindly to attach them together. I spent a long gut wrenching time on that one before I pulled the smokebox off (a tricky step due to some of the parts in the smokebox you have to thread through the hole in the bottom) to see why I could not get the screws started... NO THREADS... easy fix, but took a trip to the hobby shop to get the right metric tap. 

TWO... Male EGO! I had already assembled one of these things! It was EASY! RIGHT!??!?!? I kept skipping steps in the instructions, putting things together that needed other things attached first. Had to do a LOT of dissassembly to correct things. I also still got the valve gear reversed, but I was smart this time and put a couple of big books on the ends of the table to catch it! 

If you have problems, feel free to ask here... also do a search of the archives for notes by those that have assembled it. Also check the Southern Steam Trains website for more notes. 

\http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/reference.htm


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
As I told you at the Huck, TAKE YOUR TIME! Read and re-read the instructions as you assemble. That is the most important thing. Second is one word. Loctite. Use it, but not on items that would need to be removed for maintenance. 
Good luck. Also send me an email with your home address. I have something to send you that will help with the assembly. I think you know what it is.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

The Mikado is a great kit building experience. Take your time and study the graphic instructions as well as the written ones. The (8) cylinder studs that came with my kit were incorrect (too short) and were replaced by Aster, though you could use the shorter ones, however you will need to test fit the valve box assembly and loctite them in at their proper length. Make sure that everything moves smoothly in each assembly, before proceeding further.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks for all of the answers. I sent you my address Fred. What type of loctite should I use? 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If I remember these details correctly.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 

They recommend the absolute weakest type of locktite... I think that is "222", but I could not find it locally and wasn't about to wait to order it by mail... so I bought the only type the hardware store had on the shelf which is "242". According to a chart I found, that is the next to weakest type. 

I used it VERY sparingly. I would put a small drop on a toothpick and touch that to the screw threads and then use a paper towel to absorb most of it back off... leaving just the tinyest amount in the threads of the screw. I have had no trouble removing screws when I have had to and I have only had one part come loose in operation... the Bypass valve has a ring with a long screw to hold it to the shaft of the valve, the long screw helps the fingers grip the ring to turn it to open or close the valve. This is the only part that came loose and I actually found it laying on the ballast when I discovered it missing during a run.  


Another bit of advice... the kit comes with a tube of "bathtub caulk" (the box is printed in Japanese, but the 'drawings of use' on the box will show you that it really is bathtub caulk). The instructions will tell you to use the caulk on all of the steam fittings and on the gasket material around the steam chest. It was recommended to me to use steam oil on the gaskets instead, as it makes opening the steam chest easier if you want or need to make adjustments inside it. I have had to remove the steam chest lids a couple of times and the steam oil releases easily and I have not had to make new gaskets, but if I had used the caulking compound I am sure I would have needed new gaskets to reassemble things. It won't hurt to use plenty of steam oil there as it is needed inside the chest anyway, but if you get that caulking compound in the wrong place it will be a big problem. Do use the caulking compound on the pipe fittings and such, but be sure to keep it away from the insides of the pipes... it will clog things up badly and may be impossible to get out of the wrong places.


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
i always use the blue loctite. Charles is correct, the number is 222. I've bought it at auto parts stores in the past.


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## Rob Meadows (Jan 6, 2008)

Do yourself a favor, and only use Loctite 222. I'm sure you can order it over the internet.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Please note that although it is a blue liquid, it is in a RED bottle... in teeny-tiny letters on the teensy-tiny label it will have the word BLUE


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## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi All, 

I am in the process of building a Mikado as well. I am new to alcohol firing and was just wondering about something. I am sure I will get many different answers, but I just wanted to hear your input. How exactly do you light the fire in the engine? Do you use a match, lighter, etc? It seems somewhat difficult to access the wicks on this particular engine so I was just looking for some tips. 

Thanks for the help, 
David


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I put the auxilary blower fan (either the commercial Aster type fan, or a computer CPU fan in a funnel, or an air-compressor through a venturi) in the stack to draw a draft on the fire, open the fuel valve and wait about 30 seconds (if I can wait that long!) and then use a butane bar-b-q lighter held along side the bottom of the firebox. The alcohol lights quite easily. A small handheld inspection mirror-on-a-stick (dental mirror) can be used to look up into the firbox to see if it is lit and how well it is burning. I keep the auxilary blower running until I hear the built in blower hissing and then remove the auxilary one.


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

I use a butane lighter as Charles mentioned. If it is a sunny day you will not be able to see the flames from the wicks even with a mirror. I then use the butane lighter to check and see if the wicks are lit. Either light the lighter and blow out the flame (while continuing to hold down the trigger) or pull the trigger enough to let the fuel flow without engaging the spark, and place the lighter by the side of each wick. If the lighter lights, the wicks are lit.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

A dental mirror or one purchased for automotive inspection purposes works well for checking the burner wicks to see if they are all lit.


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## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

OK. I have already have a butane lighter for my butane engines so I am all set there. Fred, that us a neat trick. Use the flame to ignite the lighter. I will have to pick up a mirror though. Thanks again for the tips guys. 

-David


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, while I did not build mine from a kit a friend was nice enough to add the detail kit to my RTR engine for me. If you do get the detail kit, you need to install it while you build the engine. The sand pipes, feed water pipes, front cow catcher detail, etc. in the detail kit add a lot to the looks of a already good looking engine. I think that they are still available from Hans.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I would like the detail kit but I do not want to drill holes in the boiler shell. From what John Garret was telling me at the Huckleberry steamup you have to drill square holes in the boiler jacket. I do not want to tack a chance on messing up the engine. Steve, I have seen videos of your Mikado on here before it looks like it runs really good. 
Brian


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Brian. One of the great things about the Mike is that I have never heard of one that does not run well. They are just a all around great engine. As far as the detail kit, you might give Hans a call about drilling those holes that you are referring too. He may have some advice on how to do it easier then you have been told. This is easy for me to say because I did not do mine, but the detail kit adds a lot to the overall apperance of this already awesome engine.


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## danielr49 (Aug 11, 2008)

Did you get your Aster kit yet


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I should get it Tuesday or Wensday. 
Brian


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I got the kit today and after 7 hours of working on it I got the drivers in the frame and the cylinders together. If I am lucky after work tommorow I can get a good start on the valve gear. 
Brian


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
Great. Sounds like you are already having fun. Just remember to take your time. Easier to take your time and do it right the first time rather than disassemble and re-do. Take some pictures and keep us updated on your progress. I'll look for those ceramic wicks for you before the Canterbury steamup.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

After a 4 hour building session today. I have the valve gear and cylinders on the frame. I have not gotten to the valve timing yet. So far I have about 12 hours into it. I had some problems fitting the radius rods and combination levers together but it just took a little filing to make everything move smoothly 
Brian


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Take your time adjusting your valve timing to make sure that you see every valve opening event, steam port, exhaust port in both forward and reverse settings, for both left and right cylinders. In the neutral setting, the valve block should move back and forth(oscillate) without either valve opening on either side. The time spent here will reward you with many hours of enjoyable steaming.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Back to the Locktite issue! The correct Loctite for our models is 222MS which does come in a red bottle but the liquid has a purplish tint. Blue loctite, or Locktite 242 is far too strong for these models and may make it very difficult to remove fasteners coated with it. I am currently rebuilding a model for a customer who partially built it with this blue Loctite 242 and I have had to use a small torch to get some fasteners free - fortunately without damage to the engine. The blue Loctite can really gum up the threads even after the screws are removed and has to be chased out with an appropriately sized tap.This blue Loctite also can leave a crusty residue on your paint and this is very hard to remove. So save yourself some future problems and only use Loctite 222MS. 

Good luck, 

Ross Schlabach


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross 

That's really interesting. Aster always say use Loctite 222 in the kit instructions but that type of Loctite is not always available except from specialist suppliers who don't normally supply on an individual basis. 

I normally say "use any low strength thread lock" but now having read your comment i will only recommend Loctite 222. Maybe I have to stock it with Steam Oil and other sundries - oh well. 

Andrew


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
With the long weekend here, how is the Mike assembly going? You should be almost ready to steam her up!


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

As of now the boiler backhead fittings are done and I am starting the firebox ceramic sheets today. I had some trouble with the axel pump yesterday. 
Brian


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have pretty much everything together at this point. I was ready to fire it up this morning and I went to use the hand pump in the tender to rill the boiler and water was shooting out of the bottom of the axel pump where the water line connects. I used the caulk on the seal like the manual said and I put more on after that and I just went to try it again and it did the same thing. I do have the nut tight. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to do? 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You may have the top and bottom nuts exchanged. One of them has a groove across the end that fits inside the body of the pump. I think that one goes on the top, if I remember correctly, (which is not likely after a day wandering around the Midwest Old Settler's and Thresher's Reunion with my son and two grandsons). But I know that if you get those two nuts exchanged the pump will want to work backwards and the hand pump will be working against the inlet and outlet valves of the reversed nuts.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks Charles. I took the axel pump off, and I had the nut with the groove on the bottom. I will test it tommorow or the day after. 
Brian


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I just finished putting the axle pump back together and the cab together. Number 184 is complete, I hope I can steam it up tommorw, if not I will on Wensday. I will post some pics of it tommorow or Wensday. 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, ya shamed me into digging out the instructions to be sure I had not misled you. 

If you look at the diagram (assuming you have the same one I do) the Banjo Bolt 6B-12 is the one with the slot and it goes on the top and 6B-8 goes in the bottom. The top is denoted by being the longer end of the pump body. You have to really look at the drawing, but it does kind of show the slot in part 6B-12 and definitely does NOT show a slot in 6B-8. So I feel better now. I bet that was the problem, you were just supplying so much pressure from the hand pump in the tender that it blew out the (bathtub caulk) seal (the pumps are quite powerful!) It really should be relatively easy to work the tender hand pump... at least until you get 30 or 40 pounds of steam pressure in the boiler. 


Another note (though maybe a bit late in your construction... sorry): 

The tender pump diagrams show the output and return pipes as being parallel to each other, but some folk say you have to cross them to get the correct pipe to the correct side of the engine, and commented on how difficult it was to cross the rigid pipes under the tender. 

Well, yes you do need to cross the connections, but I found it much better to cross the hoses at the tender-to-engine draw-bar, one below the draw-bar and one above, rather than cross the rigid copper pipes under the tender. I found that this eliminates the tendency of the hoses from the tender to the engine to kink and it makes the engine/tender connection much more flexible in curves. 

Once you get the axle pump corrected, open the bypass valve and work the tender hand-pump. You should see, by looking down the tender water-fill-hatch, water squirt from the return pipe (that you should have positioned to be visible near the hatch). I always do this every time I start up for the day... this way I know the pipes are not clogged (or the hoses kinked) and all connections from the tender to the engine are correct. Then I close the bypass and work the tender hand-pump to put water in the boiler. It takes several pumps to tell that it is working by seeing a rise in the water level in the sight-glass on the boiler back-head. This also primes the axle pump. 


Many folk like to find a theoretical "sweet spot" to have the bypass valve set to. One where the water being pumped in equals the steam being used. I have NEVER found that point, because the amount of steam being used varies a bit regardless of how fast the engine is going. I have R/C control of both the throttle and the valve gear and once up to running speed I back off the valve gear to the "company notch" and use lots less steam that way. But that means that how much steam I am using depends on how often I stop and startup and how well I am controlling the valve gear. 

So, I gave up on finding the "Sweet spot" and just monitor the sight glass (a good idea anyway... well, not just a good idea, but a MANDATORY one no matter how you handle water usage and replenishment!) and when the water is low, I close the Bypass valve and when the water is high I open it. All part of the experience of running a real live steam locomotive!


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

The "Sweet Spot" does exists as CT alludes to, it just changes position depending on your load, ambient temperature and quality of fuel. You'll find this setting "Sweet Spot" each time when balance is achieved in the by-pass valve position when you can run until the alcohol runs out and all you're doing is adding water "on the fly" into the tender and you maintain a constant level water in the sight glass .


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I steamed it up and ran it on rollers. It needs the timing tweeked a little which I will do this weekend to get it running good for Canterburry. After running it I was cleaning the oil and water off of it and I went to do the smoke stack and paint came right off of the stack. I think that is really bad paint quallity for the price of the engine. I expect and new stack from Aster because I should not have to fix there mistakes. If I were to repaint the stack I would have to do the smoke box to get it to match and there is no way I am doing that. So you can see Aster it not perfect like people lead you to believe. Other then that it is a great engine. 
Brian


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
My stack did the same thing. Aster replaced it no questions asked. I've seen others that have the same problem. Must have been a paint problem when they batch painted the stacks.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your paint issues with the Mikado, that's quite unusual. What did you use to clean off the oil off or did you simply wipe it with a cloth? Send Hans an email and He'll get you a replacement in a couple of weeks.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I just wiped it off with a towel. 
Brian


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

Well I called Aster today and Hans does not want to replace the smoke stack. he says it will happen again. That is total bullcrap! Needless to say I am returning the Mikado. I should not have to fix a paint mistake on an engine of this supposed quality. I will be sticking with Accucraft where I know I will get customer service! I am very angry at Aster for not fixing there quality control problem! If there is a problem with Accucraft you KNOW they will fix it but I guess Aster wont. That is poor customer service and I know since I work in customer service. Aster will never get my business again! 
Brian


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
Who did you buy the loco from? Before you return it try getting a replacement from your dealer.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, If you repaint the stack and it does not match, after you run it a few times you will not see it. The steam oil WILL stain the stack, as can be seen on almost every one that is in regular service. Only the shelf queens stay looking new. And after all the time you put into building this engine I am sure you want to run it! If you go to 
Southernsteamtrains.com and look thru the photo gallery you will find lots of mikados.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

What kind/brand of steam oil do you use? What is your water source... distilled, rain, dehumidifier, etc.??? The only paint that has come off either of my Mikes is because I have inadvertantly scraped it with something.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Brian, I bought the new Great Northern S2 and have experienced similar "cooking of the oil" on the stack, stack skirt and smoke box. I've changed steam oils which I hope will alleviate future oil residue problems on the S2 but I've just accepted the fact that this is simply a patina that forms over time as we steam our locomotives. I looked at my Mikado stack the other day and over the 4 years that I've been running it, the draft fan has worn the paint down to the bare brass in spots from the many hours of steaming. I remember touching up the stack with Scalecoat lacuer paint (Silver Mist with a few drops of their black), trial and error until a good match is found, to find it wearing off again. It sounds like you have built yourself a great running locomotive, I'll volunteer to repaint the stack for you if you like, but I'll be matching the smoke box of my Mikado.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 

I'd have to agree with Jeff here, there are some quite close matches for the paint (Duplicolor cast coat iron being one of them), or you could just paint it flat black since it is only the inside of the stack, which would get stained by the cinders and soot anyways. 

I find it hard to believe that Hans wouldn't want to give you another stack, but I do not think that lashing out on aster's customer service was level-headed. They have been able to get parts for me for engines that are 20-30 years old, with no questions asked, and at a reasonable rate.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

If you look at historic photographs of steam locomotives in daily use, seldom will you see them in a pristine, clean condition, unless it was a locomotive specifically for passenger service usually they were left coated with soot, mineral and lime stains from the water and road grime.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Guys, back off, you are distorting what Brian reported ! He said; 

"After running it I was cleaning the oil and water off of it and I went to do the smoke stack and paint came right off of the stack. I think that is really bad paint quallity for the price of the engine." 

There is nothing there about oil staining or the inside of the stack, just wiping it off with a cloth and the paint came away! 

Then another MLS member said that he had seen the same problem a couple of times. 

Now you are all jumping in to defend Aster as you will not hear a word spoken against them. 

One of my small Aster engines burned the paint off the stack and I just assumed this was normal with uncontrolled spirit firing. I have never had the paint burn off a gas fired loco but then I don't over fire it as it is easy to control. That however does not change the fact that Hans should listen with some sympathy to Brian's complaint. 

You are all very quick to jump on the Accucraft bashing threads... but obviously have little time for anyone that registers a complaint about an Aster engine.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not seen anyone jump on Brian. The problem, as reported, is a bafflement to some of us. As is Hans response. I just want to know about the problem and how it came about. If I can help, I will do so. Not because Aster is wonderful or lousy, but because the reported problems are confusing compared to what I have experienced. I feel like I don't know all the facts and I have requested clarification.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

First off thanks Rod for stating what I said. Oil has not stained that stack the paint is peeling off. Ryan, what is your problem, you think I am lieing? Hans was pretty rude to me, he said that happens to every Aster because of the heat and I know that is a lie. The fact is he does not want to support his product so he can have it back! I will go to a company who will go out of there way to make you happy Accucraft. I will never buy an Aster again. I should not have to fix there paint problem they should but dont want to fix it. I think you would be stupid to fix it yourself when it is Asters quality problem. 
Brian


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian 

Once again, I was not bashing you at all, sorry that you have misconstrued my statement. Not knowing how your conversation went, I can only speculate that there might have been some over-reacting. Yes, the baking on of steam oil and chipping of paint will occur on the mikados, but I have never been turned down for a part that was needed. I never once stated you were lying, I was just speculating based on my on-going relations with Hans and Aster. Oil will bake on most paint surfaces, this is not only limited to aster engines. Almost all locomotives have this issue, due to excessive heat in the smokebox and very thin paint/insulation, it's a proven fact that it will happen. 

Brian, for someone who works in customer service, you certainly have thin patience when it comes to minor issues. Yes, you should not have to fix the paint problem, but considering you just spent a good amount of time building that kit, maybe you should run it some more, enjoy the fruits of your labor. The engine will not stay pristine forever, if you wanted it to do that, then it should have been kept in the box. I equate this to owning your first new car. The forst ding, nick or scratch will aggravate you to no end, but in the long run, if you wanted to keep it perfect, then it should have been left in the showroom.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, was the paint that came off on the inside or the outside of the stack?


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes I do have plenty of patience with customers at work. I talk to many a day. I do not care about steam oil stains but paint should not just flake off. Hans said all Asters do that and I know that is not true. Also I dont see how paint flaking off is a minor issue. My problem is he did not want to fix it and I am very upset about it. If Hans said no problem I will send you a new one I would have been happy, but that did not happen. I was not treated in a way I should have been. I think having to wait 10 days to 2 weeks for a part that they messed up is crazy. I am just not happy with Asters service. From now on it will be Accucraft for me. The bottom line is that Aster did not want to fix the problem, so they can have there product back. I am done posting on this thread, I stated my problem and my reasons and how I feel. I see that I can not complain about Aster with out having people going crazy. The fact is Aster made a mistake and they dont want to fix it. I just dont see why some people dont see that Aster makes mistakes. 
Brian


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 

Just a suggestion, maybe advertise your engine here and on other forums before getting a refund. You might turn a profit, even for one slightly damaged i have seen them go for 4500+ with an axlepump. 

I'm sure someone would be more than willing to take it off your hands.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brian Tusin on 09/08/2008 12:27 PM
First off thanks Rod for stating what I said. Oil has not stained that stack the paint is peeling off. Ryan, what is your problem, you think I am lieing? Hans was pretty rude to me, he said that happens to every Aster because of the heat and I know that is a lie. The fact is he does not want to support his product so he can have it back! I will go to a company who will go out of there way to make you happy Accucraft. I will never buy an Aster again. I should not have to fix there paint problem they should but dont want to fix it. I think you would be stupid to fix it yourself when it is Asters quality problem. 
Brian




I would still like answers to my questions! If your engine lost paint off the stack, then there is a reason. Rather than just give up, I would like to know why... maybe we would all have the problem if we were using the same steam oil as you did or the same fuel (or even the same brand of paper towel!). It is NOT necessarily your fault, nor is it all necessarily Aster's fault. 

I know a fellow that decided that Acetone and Alcohol were alike and decided to use Acetone in a home made burner under a Wilesco stationary engine and it removed the paint from the molded simulated brick around the firebox area. Maybe your Alcohol has a component that contains a paint solvent... SOME DO! Some have rubber-cement solvent as part of the denaturing component. 

I have read of people using something other than "Steam Cylinder Oil" for the steam oil. Some, in the past, have used chain saw oil, some have used "3-in-1" (tm) brand oil. Maybe you got ahold of some bad stuff. 

If you will help US, the live steam fraternity, it would be most appreciated, many here have done their best to help you. Maybe you have stumbled upon the cause of a common problem and "we" can all avoid it in the future.


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 
I have an extra stack I got from Jerry Hyde when I had the same problem. You are welcome to it if that helps. I agree that Hans should have taken care of this 'minor' problem for Aster. Too bad it had to turn into this mess. I'll bring it to Canterbury Saturday if you are interested.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, sorry that you are having problems. If the paint is flaking off on the inside of the chimney, then I have seen that on just about all alcohol fired Asters. The reason is that the suction fan sticks into the chimney and vibrates and turns while drawing draft through the boiler. Then add heat and steam oil along with this vibration and the paint on the inside of the chimney can flake off in a hurry. A friend told me recently to add a rubber O ring to the stem of the suction fan so that there is no longer metal to metal contact. Wish that I had thought of that years ago, then all my stacks would still have paint inside. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif Now if the paint on the *outside* of the stack simply wiped away like you have said, I would agree that this is a fault of Aster.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I got an email from Hans, He has a new stack ordered for Brian. Brian has received an email from Hans informing him of this, so he can run his Mikado with the old stack till the new one arrives. He did mention in an earlier post that he still needs to fine tune his timing? 
Brian, hope this gets thing "back on track" The Mikado is very good runner, as you will find out.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

My problem is not with the stacks paint it is with Hans. When I talked to him on the phone he did not want to do anything, but after he saw I said something he wants to help. I am just not happy with how I was treated for the money I spent. That is the bottom line. I did not get treated the way I should have. If he would have said at the start I will replace it no problem no of this would have happened. I do not want to own an engine from a company who does not want to help you till you make your problem public! 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

For that matter, what are you going to do with a new stack that will lose the paint the same way? How many stacks do you expect to be supplied over how many years? 

I still want to know what kind of fuel and steam oil you use.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I used SLX Alcohol and Quisenberry Station Steam oil. As I said I am shipping the engine back for a refund. I only got the offer of the stack after I made my post on here. I know I dont have to do that with Accucraft to get service. I do not have a lot of money like most people or have other people to buy me my trains. So I look at it in a lot different way then most people. 
Brian


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Brian, 

I don't understand your issue? Does your Mikado not perform to your expectations aside from the paint finish of the smoke stack? Aren't you receiving a new replacement stack? 
Isn't this forum assisting you with your concerns?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Two points that need to be clarified: 

1) Wrong- "I think having to wait 10 days to 2 weeks for a part that they messed up is crazy. I am just not happy with Asters service. From now on it will be Accucraft for me." Just wait for an actual part comes from China vs. getting something off "junked" models. 

2) Secondly, the Aster Mikado was made 1999-2000 so let us see how available Accucraft parts are in 8-10 years. Therefore, the Aster part is coming from Japan- Hans does not have a warehouse. All Aster owners realize the situation at hand and learn to be patient or in this case- make due.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, I have been in contact with Hans via emails today, and as you have pointed out we are only hearing one side of the story. I have heard the other. At this time I will not go into more detail then given in the above post. I cannot see how Brian feels he is owed anything further then the new stack, and certainly not a refund!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW 4 3 pages of complaining and not a single photo of the stack in question to back up any issues. I have dealt with Hans and have had nothing but good dealings. I also agree that the stack in question is the only part that should be replaced. Not a refund. I have seen many asters with the rim of the smokestack having no paint. 

Accucraft has many locos with peeling paint on smokeboxes and burnt paint but I dont see anyone asking for a refund because the paint is burnt. BTW many of the K27 and K28 stacks on the inside all the paint has peeled off from the heat. Including mine!


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

All I can say to you Charles is, if a company has an engine in stock (even if it was from 1999 to 2000) they should still have parts for it in stock! Jason I would expect nothing less of you then you calling me a liar! I am seriously done with this. Everyone but 2 people have been making me the bad guy when I am not. If Hans would have offered me a new stack first instead of talking to me like he did none of this would have happened! 
Brian


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian,


You have to understand that people who have dealt with Hans have to be skeptical towards your story, unfortunately it seems that you think everyone is out to rain on your parade/insult you. Let me assure you that is far from the case. No one is saying you are to blame, but we can only judge based upon your testimony and the experience that others have had. We are only trying to help you remedy the situation.


Aster does have the parts in stock...in the main warehouse in Japan. You seem to forget that Hans and the other Distributors are only that, distributors. They only carry what is necessary to fill out orders, nothing more. The occasional bags of screws and other consumables, but that is about it.


I for one have no issue waiting for parts that I know are of OEM quality or better. Will you receive the part? Yes. Might it take longer, probably. 


FYI, 
Steam oil WILL bake onto the porous castings of smoke boxes in time, and that is a FACT It has happened to most all aster engines, some, like the Mikados, get it worse than others. It is completely situation dependent.


I am going to leave it at that. God forbid if this turns into another bashing thread....


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay guys, lets take a look at what is going on here. When I had my problem back in 2003, I took a couple of pictures to send to Jerry Hyde. I realize that it isn't a good picture, buy you can see what the problem is. This was after ONE steaming of the engine. 








I was able to mix some paint while waiting for the replacement part and came up with a good match using Poly Coat(I think that was the brand) paint mixing 'mud' and 'oily grime'. I baked the paint with a hair drier to cure it and have had the paint on for almost five years now. There are a couple of minor chips in the new paint, but it didn't peel off like the original paint did. 








. 
Now, I happen to know that Brian does not yet have a suction fan......(AND NO HE DIDN'T BORROW ONE) so, that leaves out the issue of a fan dancing around and chipping the paint. Believe me, I had the same problem as Brian, and I know for sure that Tom Toth (Steamtom2) also has that problem. 
. 
If the man says he has a problem, then he has a problem. Too much meaningless input into this thread that didn't help the situation. 
. 
I was just lucky enough to have my problem fixed before the new part came. I don't think that this is a major problem by any means, but it is annoying to have a brand new engine and have bad paint. A show stopper, no. Just goes to show you that even Aster makes mistakes (even though they are few and far between)! 
. 
Just my two cents.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Liar WOW!!!!! I re-read my post and still do not see where you could get that from. 

As for having parts Aster is one of the few companys that really stock parts. Accucraft does not have a parts program nor do they have parts for a loco thats 3 years old nevermind 8. Case in point K27, K28, C21,C16 even the new 4-4-0 has no parts available. 

I ordered parts for a 27 year old Aster and they all arrived in about 14 days all in stock. 

Now that the fact comes up that he did not have a suction fan how did he get the boiler up to pressure. If he borrowed one that yes he could easily chip paint. Putting out the fire with the tire inflators is the other common way to chip the paint. 

My friends Berkshire had the paint chipped off the top ring of the stack from the fan sitting on there while firing up. It is a normal wear and happened on the 1st steamup. Yes while wiping down you can remove more or remove the loose paint. 

I have the same ring on one of my Asters and it was from firing with the fan.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Now, i happen to know that Brian does not yet have a suction fan......

Well then what was stuck down the stack to draw a draft? It is the nature of the beast. Just about anything that sits on top of the stack and draws a draft, (even the Aster suction fan) will take the paint off in short order in the area pictured. It is paint on brass in a area of high heat, oil, and water. Add to this, the vibration of the fan (or what ever else) used. The paint is going to flake off, plain and simple. 

As far as your trashing of Hans, *well I do not buy it*. I have not known a single person that did not get treated fairly and with respect from him. He has gone above and beyond filling parts orders and trying his best to make things right for people around here. 

There is an old saying, "You can't keep everyone happy all the time", and in this case I am sure that Hans has tried too.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

I do not have a suction fan. I have not recieved it yet. From talking with Fred we came up with the idea to use a vacume. It is the same principle and worked fine. Jason I still have no idea what the **** your problem is with me. Jason maybe I should post that email you sent me about a month ago? 
Brian


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian, 

You give up way too easy.... You are willing to return your engine after you spent all that time building it, for something as simple as chipped/flaking paint on a small area? If you get derailed that easy, and find necessary to go off publicly on MLS like that, then live steam is probably not a good idea... I wish I had problems that minor. I would have repainted it like Fred did and got on with running trains.


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## Brian Tusin (Jul 26, 2008)

As I can see no one sees my problem. I do not feel like I was treated right. Also paint should just not flake off like that. The bottom line I am just not happy with Asters service. I think it is crazy that it taked 10 days to 2 weeks to get parts to you that were there mistakes. 
Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brian Tusin on 09/09/2008 8:42 AM
As I can see no one sees my problem. I do not feel like I was treated right. Also paint should just not flake off like that. The bottom line I am just not happy with Asters service. I think it is crazy that it taked 10 days to 2 weeks to get parts to you that were there mistakes. 
Brian




I beg to differ. I do see your problem. You feel slighted in your treatment by Aster's representative here. You feel that for the price you paid (probably around $4,000.00 and over 20 hours of your time) you expected the part to not lose paint. You are not a happy camper at this point. 

RIGHT? 

Oh, also, you feel that 10 to 14 days is too long to get a replacement part to you. There, now I believe I have reiterated your feelings about it. 

You feel doubly-slighted because, after you pubicly complained, the Aster Representative has relented and said he will honor your request for a replacement... you see that as sort of a backhanded appeasement gesture. 

But, I don't think that is really your problem. I really don't! 

Your problem is that you are not thinking through the situation. 

You have a half dozen respondents to your situation here on MLS that have attempted to help you understand the reasons that the Aster Representative did not immediately respond in your expected way. We have attempted to explain why the paint came off. We have attempted to explain that even if he were to send a replacement, it will do the exact same thing. Please think ahead a short time and realize that you will not be better off for receiving the replacement. It will accomplish NOTHING for you. You will not gain from that response to your problem. 

I initially thought that the amount of paint that came off was a large patch on the outside of the chimney such that there is a glaring shiny brass spot visible. I realize that the photos that have been posted are NOT of your engine, but you have not stated that the amount of paint that came off was much worse that what they show. So I attempted to find a reason for the problem and asked questions to gather more information. I had to ask twice before you responded. This tells me you were not seeking solution, but rather demanded assuaging your ego. 

Cool yer jets, fella! Think through this situation. 

The paint comes off the chimney... many people have pointed that out. Yes, you paid a pretty penny for the locomotive. But, I wonder how much we would have to pay for something that would not lose paint like it did? Would you be willing to pay $5,000.00 for one that the paint won't come off of? I wonder what it would cost to come up with some process whereby the paint would not come off... $10,000.00?, $50,000.00? Put a price on it, please! 

What price would you find acceptable for the locomotive if you knew the paint would chip off? What discount do you expect? Knock $10.00 off?... $100.00?, $1,000.00?, $3,999.00? Put a price on it, please! 

I am not privy to the actual conversation, but by your own account, the Aster Representative explained that a replacement part would just do the same thing. Think ahead a bit here, and tell me how many times would you demand repeated replacement parts for the same problem? Put a price on that, please! 

Have you mailed anything lately? How long does it take your electric payment to get from the mailbox to the electric company? 2 or 3 days if it is just across town. How long to get a part from Japan to the U.S. and to your house? Sure, there are 2nd day air services... wanna PAY for that? Put a price on it, please! 

What should the Aster Representative have done after your public complaints here? Ignore you completely? Sue you for defamation of character? Send you a factory built replacement engine? Deliver it to your door personally, with a bouquet of roses, a box of chocolates and a lottery ticket? Put a price on it, please! 

I don't know what you should do at this point. I don't think that it would be right for you to receive a full refund for the locomotive if you send it back. I have no idea what shape it is actually in... it may be in perfect condition (except for some missing paint on the stack) or it might be in need of corrective repair. I DON'T KNOW, but if I were the vendor, I would not be in a mode of cheerfully refunding your money. 

I would like to see you keep the locomotive and enjoy it, but I have the feeling that is beyond possibility at this point. I suppose you could sell it and attempt to recoup your costs. 

I'd recommend you get a hobby, but that may be a bad bit of advice for you... uh... get a second job so you don't have time for a hobby, you might be happier that way.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok I don't know if anyone else bothered to read Brians bio, but I did. We have a young grad, high school I guess. who has a job at "Train America Studio" when I googled it I fond this: http://www.tastudios.com Quote from bio "With my Graduation money I (Brian) was able to buy an Accucraft SPC #9 4-4-0 in June, and I just got an Aristocraft PRR Mikado" end quote. As we know from this thread he then also purchased an Aster Mikado kit. He is younger then most of us by a generation. Has a job and may be lucky enough to still live at home (this leaves more disposable income to buy trains). His attitude is typical of many his age, I refer to them as the "ME" generation. He does not have the experience to "think thing thru", I am sure he will feel this is a negative attack, it's not. We are a small hobby and it is better for all if we grow in numbers. I remember when young Ryan B. showed up at PLS....... he has EARNED the respect of others in the hobby over the past years. 
To Brian: Dude relax, enjoy the hobby! This is a place where you can make great friends, who are always ready to help. No mater what brand, scale or fuel type you enjoy.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

I just received a replacement Johnson bar push rod and shoulder bolt for my 5-year old Mikado, that I've steamed the heck out of since building it. It took Hans a week and a half from the time I emailed him to when the part arrived in my mail box. This is what Hans does, he receives various requests for parts and submits an order about once a week. The parts are air mailed to him where he checks them in and repackages them destined to their respective recipients. This process is a heck of a lot faster than Accucraft as NOTHING comes out of their manufacturing facilities in China, where some out of stock items are out several months and even that still isn't certain, and no one can give you a precise arrival date, not even Cliff.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian 
Lesson to learn: our hobby is a small close community. I have heard (you via MLS and Hans via email) both versions. If one is going to make a situation public do so honestly, in such a way not to damage your integrity. Based on what I have surmised you might have developed a repetition that could limited your experiences in the hobby due to others not wanting to be involved with you. Already this situation will have involved another on this forum that when out of his way to make your "dream engine" possible and very doubtful would do that again for you. 
Bottom line, you have the right to demand your money's worth with any product but cannot do so in an unreasonable way. In any impasse it takes two to prevent a resolution. Based on your own words, the other party did resolve your problem only to have you make it into another unreasonable problem and to complicate it by doing so publicly. This should have been dealt with first with the person your purchased from and then Hans if necessary, not on MLS. 
Case in point: I worked many months with Accucraft on the GS4 to correct the shortcomings prior to any public notice. My objective was to make both the company and the hobby better by demonstrating the necessary changes could result in an excellent product. I could of just demanded my money back and got onto MLS to "bad mouth" Accucraft but the only one that would have benefited would have just been...."me." Instead we have helped almost two dozen community members make their engines a better experience along with an enjoyable one!


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## PeteH (Jan 3, 2008)

Was the loco hot when you cleaned it up? That's a pretty effective way to remove paint, been there - done that - never to old to learn!


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

I don’t want to get involved with the ‘hostilities’ in this discussion but I do have a couple of things to say about burning paint off chimneys (stacks). 

1. To reduce the likelihood of paint loss from inside the chimney, wrap a Kleenex tissue round the electric suction fan base to make a cushion between fan and chimney. 

2. Always read the Operating Instructions which are included with the model and kit for a purpose! They advise the use of an electric suction fan to get sufficient steam pressure prior to opening the steam blower on the loco. An electric fan has a gentle draft whereas using some kind of Vacuum pump may draw the fire too strongly and cause the paint to burn off an overheated smokebox and chimney. 

Rod Blakeman: You mention in this thread that you have had paint loss from an Aster. Well talk to me Rod! Maybe I can suggest something! Paint should not be burning off. Friendly advice is always available from your Aster Distributor and a spare part too if required. It is very frustrating to read your negative comments about Aster when we could have probably sorted out the cause of your problem with a call or email. 

Andrew


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got around to reading all of the vitriol in this thread and it was fun , albeit a bit on the stupid side . 
Those of us long in tooth always remember that paint coming off inside a heated chamber is no surprise. If keeping the locomotive almost pristine is a concern ( especially in rare older models ) I suggest that Andrew's solution is the way to go , although I consider it a bit less than elegant . Purchase a roll of painter's blue masking tape and then just wrap the nozzle of the fan with a turn or two. Peel off the scorched tape between uses and you are all set. This looks better than having some nose tissue sticking out on the preparation table. 

Jerry


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

As has been mentioned before, a good, oversize o ring also is a good way to prevent the fan from rotating and keeps the screw heads (which are what can scratch paint) elevated a bit. A simple solution to a common problem, I have used it for many years with great success.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, 
I was not complaining or too worried, as I suggest above, I thought this was normal.  I was just trying to give Brian some moral support against all the flack he was getting for daring to suggest a problem with an Aster. !! No manufacturer is perfect and we should all understand that. If you remember even the factory built T3 I purchased from you did not run initially but we fixed it.  It does not mean to say that we start "trashing" the manufacturer or that we should try and hide any failure, just accept that these things happen sometimes. 

It's nice of everyone to offer Brian suggestions on how to prevent damaging the inside of the smoke stack. I thought that his problem was with paint coming off the outside ? Apologies if I am wrong about that. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## danielr49 (Aug 11, 2008)

Can we finally put this thing to bed already? Can I have an AMEN?


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## Ron67 (Jan 14, 2008)

Amen. Next topic.....


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Five pages of, I was going to say garbage or a word a lot stronger. 
I live in Australia where we only have possibly one or two Dealers who know steam loco's. 
Send me the Aster Mike and I'll pay you what you paid for it originally plus postage etc. 
It will look fine in front of the AC-12 now that I have the gas system working correctly. 
Now I paid a lot more for the AC-12 than the Mike, I had problems but fixed them myself. I learnt a lot form this experience. 
When can I expect the Mike to arrive, before Christmas? That would be nice.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

If Brian lives near me (I'm in NC) I will consider buying it. It's been a while since I have built a mikado, but I see them running at every steam up. They run great. My green mike is always quite the dirty engine. Not to the level of the professonals in terms of filthy dirty smokeboxes (you know who you are, Mr. J.R.) but a close second. And lets not talk about how much steam oil and water my other engines throws out the stack. 

Anyway, lets hope cooler head prevail, and only the boiler blows off more steam.....


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Dear Mr. GNSteamer: 

Why are some people so hard on Accucraft? 

These folks have made available Scale Accurate Prototype Live Steam Gauge One Locomotives previously not available in this price range. Not all hobbyists can afford the Aster models. In once owned an Aster Reno. I sold it unfired a few years back. Good thing. Would anyone care to post digital photos to compare the detail level of the Aster Reno and the present Accucraft 4-4-0 ? 

Years ago I called up Accucraft and spoke with the late Accucraft President Charlie. I explained that I could not afford his brass locomotives but that I would like to purchase some Radely Hunter smoke stacks. He explained that these are a rare item and that he only has three of them at the China factory which he would be visiting next week. He asked if I could wait a few weeks for his return and he would mail me one. Of course I said that would be fine and Charlie agreed to sell me all three ( all of his stock ) which he personally brought back to the US in his briefcase carried onboard the aircraft. 

I mentioned this to Cliff recently and he remarked that was the type person Charlie was. This service for a cold call stranger whom at the time did not even own any of his products. 

Fast track to the present day and the 4-4-0 side rod and melting Radely Hunter smoke stack problems were solved quickly, were they not ? 

I believe Aster owners are very concerned that the constantly improving Accucraft product line is threatening the Aster resale value. That is commerce. All of these trains are just toys for enjoyment. They are not a financial investment tool. Look on ebay to see what has happened to the resale value of high priced LGB electric locomotives. Some MINT models are being sold at 1/2 or 1/3 their original retail price. 

Anyway, compared to 3 1/2" gauge live steam, the Aster #1 Ga. locomotives are just toys, not models, right ? (Don't blow a cylinder head gasket, that was a joke) 

Another thread, regarding the Bachmann K-27 problems, descended into a three or four way personal insult boxing match. The model sells for peanuts compared to the brass Accucraft model. Their expectations are unrealistic for a plastic model. Just like an automobile, one needs to wait for the next release to get the bugs out. These are complicated items to design and manufacture perfectly. 

Anyway, ALL of us are free to assemble the required RISK capital to approach the appropriate Orient subcontract builder and present a product to the market place. 

At 48 years of age one becomes aware of one's limited time on earth. I have had several relatives and friends pass away from illness or accidents far younger than myself. One Canadian Sergeant, in his twenties, killed in Afghanistan has just had his funernal here today. Life really is too short to get into these personal assults. If anyone cares to, let me have it. 

I have to go now and play with my trains. 

Norman


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By norman on 09/11/2008 11:41 PM
Dear Mr. GNSteamer: 
Would anyone care to post digital photos to compare the detail level of the Aster Reno and the present Accucraft 4-4-0 ? 

- I have seen both run and also compared the Accucraft to the Argyle SPC 3. As for details the Accucraft and Argyle are based on the same prototype but vary in many ways. The most drastic is the large boiler on the Accucraft. As for detail and castings they all are highly detailed. The Accucraft tender is also very different from the Argyle but it seems at Accucraft too a shortcut and used the mogul tender as they are identical. 

Years ago I called up Accucraft and spoke with the late Accucraft President Charlie. I explained that I could not afford his brass locomotives but that I would like to purchase some Radely Hunter smoke stacks. He explained that these are a rare item and that he only has three of them at the China factory which he would be visiting next week. He asked if I could wait a few weeks for his return and he would mail me one. Of course I said that would be fine and Charlie agreed to sell me all three ( all of his stock ) which he personally brought back to the US in his briefcase carried onboard the aircraft. 

- All their parts are still a rare item as they do not make surplus parts for stock. The replacement stacks were made up within a few weeks of the request. Pretty fast but they received many calls. The drive rods 

Fast track to the present day and the 4-4-0 side rod and melting Radely Hunter smoke stack problems were solved quickly, were they not ? 

- The stacks were requested pretty fast Yes. The side rods are still not available and Cliff told me probally the fall as they have to make these as they do not have any parts available. Their parts program is use what damaged ones come back fcrom shipping. The 4-4-0 had no damages and all 260 models Cliff said were sold. If you need a part he said it could take 6 months. 

I believe Aster owners are very concerned that the constantly improving Accucraft product line is threatening the Aster resale value. That is commerce. 

- I beg to differ. Look at the Aster GS4 before the Accucraft came out. They were selling for about 4-5,000 on the used market. Fast foward to the Accucraft coming out with the problems it had it made the Aster more desirable and now they are selling for over 10,000. This is from a person that owned one 1st hand and sold if just before the Accrucraft unit came out and followed its resale to the current owner. It had changed hands 3 times and value has just increased each time. 

All of these trains are just toys for enjoyment. They are not a financial investment tool. Look on ebay to see what has happened to the resale value of high priced LGB electric locomotives. Some MINT models are being sold at 1/2 or 1/3 their original retail price. 
Anyway, compared to 3 1/2" gauge live steam, the Aster #1 Ga. locomotives are just toys, not models, right ? (Don't blow a cylinder head gasket, that was a joke) 
Another thread, regarding the Bachmann K-27 problems, descended into a three or four way personal insult boxing match. The model sells for peanuts compared to the brass Accucraft model. Their expectations are unrealistic for a plastic model. Just like an automobile, one needs to wait for the next release to get the bugs out. These are complicated items to design and manufacture perfectly. 
Anyway, ALL of us are free to assemble the required RISK capital to approach the appropriate Orient subcontract builder and present a product to the market place. 

- I agree that some are too harsh on the details of some of the angines and rolling stock but I do belive that they should not take shortcuts or change things like running gear to simplify the models. Many parts are interchanged on the Accucraft models but some differ a lot from the prototype. 

At 48 years of age one becomes aware of one's limited time on earth. I have had several relatives and friends pass away from illness or accidents far younger than myself. One Canadian Sergeant, in his twenties, killed in Afghanistan has just had his funernal here today. Life really is too short to get into these personal assults. If anyone cares to, let me have it. 
I have to go now and play with my trains. 

- Now I'm going to play trains all weekend 


Norman


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman 
You stated, "I believe Aster owners are very concerned that the constantly improving Accucraft product line is threatening the Aster resale value." 

Accucraft has very little in the way of direct competitive product line that would impede on Aster sales or resale value. 

The only direct comparison would be with the GS4 in gauge one. Recently, two 1987 Aster GS4 sold for over $10K (if I remember correct 1987 kit was $6K). The Accucraft GS4 struggles to hold the original price on the current market. 

Most Aster owners are loyal and support the manufacture products. Based the GS4 and CF I doubt that either will persuade a die-heart Aster to purchase Accucraft over Aster. 

As to "constantly improving..." not so in 1:32 as the CF did not improve in some very critical areas of running gear in comparison to Accucrafts past experience of their Accucraft GS4 production base line. In fact a bit more lacking than the GS4 standards. 

I am not sure that the side rod bearing situation nor the cross head bolts have been resolved quickly with proper parts other than some available OEM parts, certainly not upgraded ones. 

What Accucraft has done well is offer a high detail, functional product marketed in such a way that allows more participation in the hobby of gauge one live steam. This they do very well, especially with NG products given there is no competition for a comparative basis. 

So, if one is going to present a case that Accucraft is competing head to head and at the level of Aster (SG only) then the CF would have been about $16-18K with all the bells and whistles with proper components (e.g. combination levers). Finally, competing at an Aster level would also require Accucraft kits beyond the Ruby level.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jay 
Fact check 
Look at the Aster GS4 before the Accucraft came out. They were selling for about 4-5,000 on the used market. Fast foward to the Accucraft coming out with the problems it had it made the Aster more desirable and now they are selling for over 10,000. This is from a person that owned one 1st hand and sold if just before the Accrucraft unit came out and followed its resale to the current owner. It had changed hands 3 times and value has just increased each time. 


I have followed the Aster GS4 through the releasealong with it's market price for years. Never have I seen one for $4-5K, in fact most prior to Accucraft GS4 were 10-12K. If that was true I would have never purchased an Accucraft! The particular one must have been sold at that lower price for other factors than the "going market rate." BTW- does that particular person own any other Aster for sale at a 50% discount (seemingly not knowing that he had the best Aster on the market at the time and very rare to anyone in gauge one live steam)?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Charles - you wrote - 'As to "constantly improving..." not so in 1:32 as the CF did not improve in some very critical areas of running gear in comparison to Accucrafts past experience of their Accucraft GS4 production base line. In fact a bit more lacking than the GS4 standards.' 

I'm sorry to say that I don't understand what you have written here. 

Can you rephrase it for those of us who do not have your way with words?  

tac


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Since I have been involved in this hobby, I have every day enter ebay, etc. to see what is on selling, specially looking for Aster Engines. I have come across some very well taken care engines as some very bad engines. For what I have observed, some ugly engines of Aster will never sell or will sell in less price than what they were originally sold. I have observed too, that some new Accucraft engines even new, will not sell at their original price. And I have seen too, that some very special Asters, hard to find, like Big Boy, GS4, H-8,etc. they will always be sold and many of the times with an increase in price (live steam and electric version). To me personally, even if Accucraft comes with a live steam version of the Big Boy, I still will always prefer to buy an Aster, if I could find one that is pristine, even if I paid 2 or 3 times what the Accucraft will be. I know that if I someday require to sell it, I will always find somebody to buy it, not so with the Accucraft, unless I give a good discount. And so, I like accucraft engines and other brands too, but my special is Aster.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for all or your well written diatribes. I own live steam models from both manufacturers. The only concern that I have and this is not a criticism is the manufacturing and shipping schedules that one must accomodate as a consumer. I'm sure many of you are anxiously awaiting a particular product so that you can go out and enjoy. We are fortunate to have these few manufacturers that put out these live steam model products at the various price points that we all can feel comfortable budgeting and paying for. I have excellent dialogues with both Cliff and Hans and greatly appreciate what each of these gentlemen have contributed to our hobby. I will see Cliff this weekend in Portland at the Narrow Gauge Convention and will get together with Hans when he makes a trip up to the Pacific Northwest.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 09/12/2008 6:05 AM
Jay 
Fact check 
Look at the Aster GS4 before the Accucraft came out. They were selling for about 4-5,000 on the used market. Fast foward to the Accucraft coming out with the problems it had it made the Aster more desirable and now they are selling for over 10,000. This is from a person that owned one 1st hand and sold if just before the Accrucraft unit came out and followed its resale to the current owner. It had changed hands 3 times and value has just increased each time. 
I have followed the Aster GS4 through the releasealong with it's market price for years. Never have I seen one for $4-5K, in fact most prior to Accucraft GS4 were 10-12K. If that was true I would have never purchased an Accucraft! The particular one must have been sold at that lower price for other factors than the "going market rate." BTW- does that particular person own any other Aster for sale at a 50% discount (seemingly not knowing that he had the best Aster on the market at the time and very rare to anyone in gauge one live steam)?




Bob Mosher sold his orignal one to a guy in Ca for around 5,000. This from a conversation at the NJLS Labor Day meet. Then it was sold to another and then the current owner Kaleb for 10 or 11,000.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

To all of you with interest, there is a Aster Mikado right now selling on Ebay. Asking price $4100 usd. Perhaps this is the one belonging to Brian.


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

interesting photos


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote from the e-bay description: 

"It does need retired. I have the instruction manuals and it shows how to do it. I have only steamed it once." 

Can anyone explain the term "retired"? I have two Aster Mikes with instruction manuals and I don't remember any "retire" instructions... I don't know any way to do so, since the wheels and "tires" and flanges are all one piece (as near as I can tell). And, how come it would need to be "retired" if only steamed once? 

I am just real curious as to what is meant.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

If you follow somewhere in this thread he posted that the valvegear was tight and there was a lot of filing that had to be done..Maybe thats why it needs timing. He also mentioned that someone else tried hepling with the timing with no success 

O and is thats the missing paint I am treally shocked. Its the exact spot that Dans Berk lost its paint. He took and taped around the front and stack and just painted the top of the stack with Krylon Grey. Matches ok but its just the top. Never see it in any photos. 

I dont even know why he posted it on Ebay when he had 3 people offer to buy it on here??


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr: You think he means "retimed" as opposed to "retired"? Makes sense I guess. Thanks.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he means 'retimed'. 

tac


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yea is makes sense.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

With all due respect Gentlemen, if it is Brian's locomotive, he's entitled to do whatever he wants with it. Making fun of him is not only uncalled for, but against MLS policy as well ("courtesy to other members"). Let's respect his wishes and his dignity shall we?


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

WADR, it's about 3.5 pages too late for that.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

WADR, it's about 3.5 pages too late for that. 

I realize things got heated here prior to today, and I gave a lot of latitude. However, I think it's probably time to put this one to bed.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree, time to tuck this one in and let it fall asleep. Go ahead Dwight, throw the switch and lock it


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