# MSS steamloco's any good? - Beginners questions..



## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

I'm thinking of taking some (very) small steps in the beautiful world of live steam (or stepping to the dark side if you want... ). 
However my budget is very limited as is my knowledge of (steampowered) mechanics.So I always thought it was something out of reach... ;-(

But yesterday I came across MSS locomotives on the internet. If I'm correct these are formerly Masod locomotives? They claim to be good loco's specially for the beginner (ME!). That sounded great and what sounded even better was that the prices are _affordable for small budgets _(ME AGAIN!). See the picture of one of those at the bottom, found on some sites on the internet.

Now, I don't expect those locomotives are comparable with most of the stuff seen here, but are they any good? 


If I understand correctly these locomotives run on fuel tablets, like the Wilesco steamengines? 
I think this will shorten the running time of the loco but that will not be a problem on my small layout. Also this looks like a very simple way to steam up the locomotive for me as beginner.


Does somebody know if those locomotives have a backward/forward option or do they only run forward?. 

And what's better: kit or ready to run? 
I was thinking buying a kit so I understand more how it is put together. The kits don't seem to be that difficult, but on the other hand... what if I make an error?

You understand; I need some opinions! 
Thanks! 

Paul


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

The build quality on MSS products are mixed. Yes, they are like the OLD Mamod locos from the 1980s, but with poorer quality materials, if possible. 

Kits would be the way to go, to improve quality, and also get the improved parts from Dream Steam. This would include better cylinders, a proper boiler and burner, higher pressure safety valve, throttle, lubricator (don't get it the Roundhouse ones like I have are better) etc. I did this with my loco along with a few more cosmetic improvements. Not a cheap way at all to get into live steam, but fun. 

My loco with pictures and Dream Steam's upgrade kits, Dream Steam now sell the parts that others sold about five years back. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/15294/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

http://www.dreamsteam.co.uk/mss-mamod-upgrade-kits.html 

Yes, they go backwards and forward, the Dream Steam kits give you speed control, which the MSS/Mamod has little, the best way to accomplish speed control on them is loads or playing with the back pressure. The 16mm society in the UK has a good (dated) Mamod handbook that gives how to accomplish this. 

And with all this, one has to consider that buying a PPS Janet might be cheaper? The down side is they are already built (no kits), the plus would be lower cost than a sorted Mamod: 

http://www.pps-steam-models.co.uk/pps/janet.htm 

Then the next question is why not for about the same money to go to a basic Roundhouse engine like the Millie or a kit for a Billy or the like? The pluses are the build quality and parts, the down side is they are WAY oversize for SM32 scale, but look better with LGB stock because of this (a Mamod/MSS loco is tiny, smaller than the LGB toytrain engines) and look better on 45mm track.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul- 

Another thought....a possible option that might be better for your small railway with tight turns would be one of the geared Regner steam locos. Cost would be less than a sorted MSS/Mamod, and with the new basic Max loco, probably cheaper than the MSS kit itself at round EUR 200. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ub1ueWGYmk


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Paul, 
It does not matter if you are running a MSS or an Aster $20,000.00 Allegheny Loco,...you are running live steam and that is what matters. It's all fun and many times the simpler engines can be the most fun. You do however, want to stay away from frustration. A out of the box MSS or Mamod engine can be frustrating if you plan on running it on a regular basis. It can be improved. The most basic improvements would be a high pressure safety, water top up valve, dead leg lubricator, and the three wick alcohol burner (fuel tablets are no fun at all). All these items are offered at "Dream Steam" and they would give you a much better running experience. Price now for the loco with these basic improvements would be in the $300.00 - $325.00 range. 

Now, if you further add the high pressure boiler and better cylinders you would quickly be getting into the price range of a PPS Steam Models "Janet" that already has these improvements and much more. 

Not knocking the MSS or Mamod. They will get the job done. However, if you plan on doing all the upgrades down the line you would be better starting with the PPS model.







.... typed by Steve's daughter for Steve.... that is why the spelling is correct!!!


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

What happened to Steve ?? Did he burn his fingers on Tuesday's Steaming @ Steve's so he can't type ? hehe.. hope not.


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

typed by Steve's daughter for Steve.... that is why the spelling is correct!!! LOL! ;-))) 


Thanks for the honest answers guys! It seems there is more to it than just getting an out of the box MSS loco run on my layout. Looked to good to be true.
I watched some Youtube videos of MSS loco's and some of them did not run well at all. One did not even get through the LGB bends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f7QbDk3iH8). The ones that did run well where gas powered / modificated.


I also have some grades in my layout (new extension of the line!) and the video make me wonder if this loco could pull the grades.


Conclusion: I have to save some more money for more upgrades or a Regner or PPS locomotive. (that Janet engine looked good!). Think I have to sell some more old H0 stuff... 


BTW; how does steamengines handle grades normally? Most video's I've seen the tracks are level...


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Paul- 

Yes, the camel dung burner and 15psig or less boiler from the factory do not lend to operation. Also as built, they can be leakers. 

As for grades, the MSS/Mamod will not handle grades well, if you wish for grades, then radio control or being able to have constant hand control would be required to prevent stall or runaway. For grades, the Regner geared locos reportedly do better. For me, garden railways and live steam are different hobbies, and I do not try and combine the two, but that is my interest, others do and enjoy it. 

Or modify a Regner into a "rack loco". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-YDABTkZvU


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

how does steamengines handle grades normally? Most video's I've seen the tracks are level 
Aha! You found out one of the secrets of the burnt-finger brigade. . .[/i] Steam engines handle grades just like any other machine. Give it more juice and it develops more power and gets the job done. The problem is that when you get to the top of the hill, you have to turn off that extra juice or the down-hill ride will resemble that of the famous Casey Jones, and with the same result - derailment at the first curve. With an electric model railroad, you have "remote control" - you can adjust the juice from your controller. A simple steam engine has no such remote control, so you will need to open the throttle at the bottom of the hill, and close it at the top. (The latter is imperative or you will have a severe problem.) That means you have to be able to reach and/or follow your loco as it runs - just like the real engineer if he were on board the cab. Consequently, many live steamers build dead flat tracks, so they can sit with their favorite beverage and watch the trains go by. Set the throttle and away she goes for as long as the juice (fuel/water) lasts. The solution is remote control - in this case radio control. Some of us use the 2.4Ghz glitch-free radio systems favored by the park-flyer and racecar crowd, with servos controlling the throttle and reversing lever. Do a search and you'll find a lot of thrads about the fitting job, *e.g. **Adding r/c to my K28*

Very few live steam locos come with r/c as standard. An exeption is Roundhouse in the UK, who supply r/c built in, and whose locos are generally considered bullet-proof. *Roundhouse Engineering*


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Paul 

I like Garratt's original suggestion of a Regner geared loco. If you are going to have grades like 2.5% to 4% you would need R/C in most locos. The Regner engines do not "run away" on my steaming bay lead, which is 5%. I would invest the extra money in the locomotive and not an R/C setup in the beginning. The small 2 axle Regner locos will go around any curve that the cars can. They are excellent value for the money, although on the order of twice the price [$600+]. Much better than a Ruby to boot. 

Regards


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

In support of Dr Rivet and Garrett's suggestion - My pal Broos is building his very first live-steamer as we speak - the Regner 'Lumberjack'. It not only has two large oscillating cylinders, but also substantial gearing and side-rods to join it all up together. Regner has has a change of heart in recent times, and now includes a full set of English instructions, rendering the use of a friendly German-speaker superfluous.


'Lumberjack' is a mighty powerful performer at low speeds, and will hardly notice a 3 percent grade - even with twenty or thirty Rugga quarry cars behind it. Run times will necessarily vary, but figure on around 20 minutes per fill.


R/C is not necessary on this loco, I assure you. 


tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 29 Aug 2010 01:54 PM 


In support of Dr Rivet and Garrett's suggestion - My pal Broos is building his very first live-steamer as we speak - the Regner 'Lumberjack'. It not only has two large oscillating cylinders, but also substantial gearing and side-rods to join it all up together. Regner has has a change of heart in recent times, and now includes a full set of English instructions, rendering the use of a friendly German-speaker superfluous.


http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de/s...ferung.pdf

For the 2.5 people on the forum that will find this of interest.....

Also TAC, my dad found the English with his Max most entertaining! So maybe things have improved in the English department of the House of Regner?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, Sir - there you and me, your dad and at least one other, as well as Dr Rivet - that's five by my count! 

BTW, you don't need to capitlalise my name, it's not an abbreviation but the nearest easy pronunciation of my Irish name - say 'tike' with your mouth mostly closed, and you have it. ;=) 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry tac, always taught to adress others properly. Part of an upbringing I guess. Thanks for the e-mail also Sir! 

Anyhow, as for the two-point-five....dad is not on the forum, so the number dropped by 20%... 

Honestly, looking over the Lumberjack booklet, I really under-estimated that loco.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

.


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

Thanks again for all your replies!

The geared Regner loco's sounds like a good option then. I visited their site and their 'Konrad' caught my eye. It looks like a very nice engine and it's geared. Three times the MSS price so it will take me a while before I can purchase one, I'm afraid... 

But the radius is not a problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Uj3a-1BAXKs&feature=related
And it seems to handle grades very good indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Si0O6NO41w

Well, if I ever purchase one (maybe somewhere this year); you all are the first to know! 

Paul


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

It will be worth the wait. Konrad is a neat little Loco. There use to be one that ran at my track often but the owner had to move because of his job. Its well made and a good runner.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

that's five by my count 
I'm a big fan of the Regner locos, particularly the 'Lumberjack" with it's two cylinders on top busily thrashing away. The gearing avoids the r/c issue, and there are kits available at reduced price (? still ?) 

[P.S. no-one ever commented on why the Regner Shay has gearing from the crankshaft to the driveshaft, plus gearing on the axle ends. Seems like overkill to me!]


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok somebody has to do it............the new Ruby comes with 1/2 inch cylinders and can be purchased for under $5oo. and the Accucraft Forneys are under $700. 

There, I said it. 
Larry


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Larry 

One of Paul's requirements appears to be a small engine that could easily deal with "more than moderate grades". A stock Ruby or Forney does not meet that criteria. This is why I did not suggest it. On nearly flat [level] track they are ok, but still not in the same class as a Regner. 

Regards


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

...plus there is the thought of how hard is it to find a Ruby in the Benelux right now? TrackShack on the IoM at GBP 360 (not counting VAT) was the best I could come up with....


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 30 Aug 2010 07:25 AM 


[P.S. no-one ever commented on why the Regner Shay has gearing from the crankshaft to the driveshaft, plus gearing on the axle ends. Seems like overkill to me!] 

Unmistakeably German?


(to use the Citroën C5 commercial tag line)


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, with the usual manic thrashing of a high-speed oscillating engine - even a twin cylinder version - you need all that speed for power, and THEN you need to slow the revs to a realistic speed for a Shay. Otherwise it would be a direct drive with minimal gearing and the Shay would go like 'Hiawatha'. 

Have a look at even the Aster 'Alishan' Shay without a load to see what I mean...and THAT has real Stephenson link valve gear, too. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape meares Lighthouse restoration Fund


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul 
Many of the live steam crowd cut their teeth on the Mamod and it still commands some respect. Following the instructions that come with the engine is the clue to a continuing love affair with this funky locomotive. The boiler MUST be washed out with hot water and some dish soap before use. This gets rid of the flux that will eventually clog the tubing feeding the oscillators.I use a bit of vinegar in the boiler fill as well and a squirt of steam oil. You'll get burned fingers from the front mounted reverser until you remember to wear a glove , but that's the initiation into the hobby. 
Ignore the nay sayers and jump in - you'll have fun. 
MAMODIANA , a celebration of all things Mamod will be part of the International Small Scale Steamup next January. Shold be loads of fun. 

Jerry Reshew


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

I did not notice whether anyone has suggested either an IP Janet, or a Lutz Heilscher Heidi, which are slightly lower on the price scale, depending on the currency.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

IP Janet = PPS Jane (with some upgrades) as IP Engineering got out of the steam business some years back.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By wetrail on 31 Aug 2010 09:13 AM 
Paul 

MAMODIANA , a celebration of all things Mamod will be part of the International Small Scale Steamup next January. Shold be loads of fun. 

Jerry Reshew 

And where is this perchance?


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

In Diamondhead , Mississippi 16-22 January

Jerry


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well duh on my part. So a special year for Mamods eh?


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