# Indoor Switching Layout



## scoobster28 (Sep 15, 2008)

I am brain-storming for my next layout which will be (hopefully) in my house's basement. Since I still live in an apartment I am just planning and making notes and such for when the time is right. I have two criteria for my layout: (1) Portability: I don't want to work hard on a layout that cannot travel if/when I move; and (2) Good operation: I want smooth trackwork, good wiring, and strong benchwork.


I want to build a shelf style large scale (1:29) railroad that will mostly be a switching pike but might allow for continuous operation if I complete the circuit around the walls of the basement. I plan to build it high off the ground (48") so that other things like bookcases, desks, couches, etc. can be utilized underneath. I might need to share the basement with the misses! I want it to be set in the 1950s-1970s, which means four-axle diesel switchers and road engines and "modern" freight cars. 


I saw the project layout from a 2005 in Model Railroader by Tony Koester doing almost what I want. I plan to handlay my track, which will allow my track and switches to "flow" better. I also don't think I will use 8' long sections. Anyways, I have a few questions:


1. Has anyone else done something like this? Are there any websites or other articles about layouts similar to this? 
2. Equipment wise, will USA trains 4-axle Geeps with kadee couplers make it around 60" diameter curves? I don't want to be limited to 44-tonners. Of course I realize SD40-2s are out, but will other modern diesel engines fit? I am looking at the USA trains switchesr (S4, SW7, etc)

I am not new to the forum but haven't really checked out this section in a while. I will refrain from asking lots of questions until I read through the back postings. However, if someone already knows of an existing thread that goes to these questions posting the link would be great. Appologies to member "Scooby," and any confusion two similar names might cause. 

Thanks!


----------



## Guest (May 11, 2009)

well, i can only give you some advice from bad experience. 

to 1) my last layout was on boards 7' x 5'. when we moved, i could not save any board with what was on it. 
as stairs into basements are often not wide and some even curved, i would not make any part larger than 6' x 2'. so in the worst case of small access you could transport it upright. 
depending, on how long you are (and on your belly), you might comfortably reach three foot wide, or a little more. 
three foot wide would give you 6 times the needed 6" width for 1:29 trackspace. (in that case i would make two lengths of 1' 6" width each) 
for a "mobile" layout, it might be interesting for you to get some information about the modular layouts, many clubs use for exhibitions. 
they got standards, that seem to work well. 
(i don't have any links for that, but sure somebody else can help out) 

to 2) i don't think, that cars longer than 18" will run troubleless around five foot diameter curves. generally speaking, you could use cars a little bit longer, if you do not use body-mounted couplers, but truck-mounted ones. (truck mounted couplings produce less sideways force at drawing) 

i wish you a happy "armchair-modelling" time! 
(i just finished a four year armchair and computer-modelling phase by putting the first structures alongside a wall)


----------



## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

The goal of a switching layout implies lots of backing movements and indoors, these movements of necessity may be through curved switches and other intricate trackwork. For that reason body mounted kadee couplers are highly recommended even if it limits the ultimate tightness of the curvature. Giving up on a continuous run may be the price to be paid for good operation of a switching layout in a tight space with the equipment you like.


For trackplanning, there are numerous shelf designs proposed for the smaller scales ... any can be adapted readily for large scale. It does help of course to have a prototype in mind ... every railroad had some industrial or downtown areas to switch and choosing a real location to base your model on mkae sit much easier to generate the trackplan. In the layout design fraternity these slices of real life adapted to model form are known as LDE's (Layout Design Elements). There is an electronic assemblage of LDEs available from the Layout Design SIG 


I like the idea of using modular standards to make a layout more portable. I would suggest you look at Freemo standards for greater flexibility. Also check out this year's project layout in MR. It is in HO of course but is a downtown Milwaukee switching layout designed to be moved and reassembled in different ways.


Regards ... Doug


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Our Large Scale group has built a modular railway based on this work...

http://www.deloropacific.org/

It's simple, effective and as trouble free as any sectional concept. You could build two or three as a beginning - perhaps even at your present location - and add to it as you grow into your new place.

Just a thought.

Dave


----------



## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

I cannot speak to indoor or portability designs, but I can speak to switching layouts--I have one in my yard. It is not continuous run--only a problem when people come over and want to "see the cute trains run." Not really an issue for me--I built it for my enjoyment, and I really like industrial switching. As to complex track work, I would recommend reviewing Lance Mindheim's web site, his theory is simple can be more satisfying than complex, and a lot of trackwork is not necessary to keep you busy. It is in HO, but the principles apply to all scales. 

Here is the link: Switching layout web site 

Hope that helps. 

Matt


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

A couple of years after I started into large scale trains, I built a layout in the basement one winter. The tables were built with 1 x 4 pine frames and 1/2 inch plywood tops. Most of the layout ran around the walls of two large rooms, 4 feet off the floor to allow storage of patio furniture underneath. It was an easy height to duck under and comfortable to operate at. The tables were fastened to the wall studs where possible and had legs made from 2 inch ABS pipe at the front. ABS pipe is straight, strong, light, and easy to cut with a chop saw.

I used 4 foot radius (8 foot diameter) switches and curves. I was able to run 4-axle diesels and 40 foot cars with body mounted Kadee couplers without problems.

The switching yard along one wall was 2 x 29 feet. It was three tracks across and had a number of switches, sidings and spurs.

The two rooms were offset by 7 feet, but open between each other. Between the two rooms was built another 4 x 16 foot yard. It was 5 tracks across and had a number of long storage and sorting tracks. The two yards were joined at the bottom with a curve that crossed in front of patio doors to the backyard.

In the next room was a 15 x 11 foot oval with a siding on the far side. It was joined with a switch to the large yard in the center.

The layout took up most of the space in both rooms which meant that I could not have a shop.

I quickly became bored with running trains in a circle. The oval was removed and a shop built. My friends and I get a lot more use and enjoyment out my shop than I ever did with the oval.

 

During the summer the curve between the two yards in front of the patio doors was removed so that we could have access to the pool and back yard. The following winter it was not replaced and the large yard between the two rooms was removed. The patio furniture was left between the two rooms and used as a crew lounge.

The switching yard remained for years and years and provided hours of enjoyment during the winter months. It was later converted to an On30 layout. It was removed this past winter when the basement was refinished.

I would never again add glue/water to hold the ballast. It was difficult job lifting the track and switches without damaging them. Removing the remaining ballast from the plywood with a belt sander was a dusty, noisy and long process. A 2 x 8 foot table took about 15 to 30 minutes of continuous work to clean. The track and switches never came completely clean even with my power washer.

If I built another layout, it would be a switching layout along the wall. It might be a bit wider to allow an extra track or some building flats (industries) along the wall for scenery. The plywood would be replaced with 2 inch rigid foam insulation, as it lighter and would deaden the noise of the trains. Large scale trains on plywood are very noisy.

If I wanted ballast for the yard, I would consider using ice dam to cover the rigid insulation. It is a rolled roofing product that has a fine stone finish. Molded black rubber ballast forms would be considered for the track and switches. If that was not an economical method, I would build the outside frame the height of a tie higher than the insulation to hold loose ballast.


----------



## scoobster28 (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input so far. I was thinking of building sections roughly 5-6 feet long, and only about 2.5' wide (more at the corners, but they would be shorter to compensate) because I want to make them movable. I am more aiming at making a realistic scene and nice scenery over complex switching puzzles. I enjoy scratchbuilding structures and train cars and want to handlay my own track, which will help when dealing with compressed and somewhat difficult trackwork. 

As for body mounting or truck mounting, it would seem to me that truck mounting would allow for sharper curves (using Kadees... no horn-hooks in large scale!) but I would prefer body mounting. How well do body-mounted couplers do in tight curves. 

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

Scoobster, if you want lightweight ballast for indoors, try plain kitty litter! Not the stuff with the colored crystals, though. If you give it a wash of black paint, very thin, it looks really quite good. Just a thought.
SandyR


----------



## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Body mounted Kadees can be difficult on sharp curves depending on the length of the car - long equipment causes the end of the car to swing out beyond the swing of the coupler leading to derailments. But truck mounted couplers are not suitable for switching as backing movements through the diverging route of a switch are very derailment prone. 
The usual design of modular layouts is to build self contained scenes on each module. This will be a real challenge in 1:29 with a 5 foot long module. You may find that the modular standards are not suitable for your need and that the desired portability can be achieved by simply cutting scenes into chunks.


Regards ... Doug


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

I have seen many corner modules built which were very large, complicated, heavy and hard to transport. The thing that worked best for me was fastening a framed triangle to two intersecting tables. Larger curves would require larger triangles.









If the layout is to be portable, you might consider bolts, washers and wing-nuts instead of wood screws. Although screws can be installed and removed quickly with battery powered screwdrivers, my experience has been that the screws lose their grip after a couple of set-ups. We used to set up a modular layout at a local train show and found that bolts and wing nuts worked best over the long run.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By scoobster28 on 05/11/2009 4:27 PM
Thanks for the input so far. I was thinking of building sections roughly 5-6 feet long, and only about 2.5' wide (more at the corners, but they would be shorter to compensate) because I want to make them movable. I am more aiming at making a realistic scene and nice scenery over complex switching puzzles. I enjoy scratchbuilding structures and train cars and want to handlay my own track, which will help when dealing with compressed and somewhat difficult trackwork. 

As for body mounting or truck mounting, it would seem to me that truck mounting would allow for sharper curves (using Kadees... no horn-hooks in large scale!) but I would prefer body mounting. How well do body-mounted couplers do in tight curves. 

Thanks again for your help.








Scoob,

FWIW, I am following the same line of thinking as you for mostly the same reasons. (I'm not worried about portability.) Mine will be 36" x 96" modules, mounted on 36" tall sections of inexpensive home-type steel shelving. The top shelf will allow some support, though I could attach the table to the uprights. The mid and bottom shelves will be for storage. The center support will be two of the half-units fixed back-to-back. More support and shelving space. Open framework bench for below grade scenery. The end where the 1st & 2nd module meet might also be 'doubled' shelf units, haven't decided fully on that, yet. If all goes as planned, the entire layout will be about 36" x 20', or thereabouts around the outside three walls. In certain spaces, the width can be extended perhaps 12" w/o causing problems, either for senic or routing. I'll figure that out as I go.

Les


----------



## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Consider building a "Time Saver" into your plan. It is a switching game originally developed by John Allen many years ago and has stood the test of time. I can't remember who, but someone has built one in large scale and brings it to the East Coast Large Scale Train Show. Often, two of them are built and operated side by side for competitions but they could be configured in several different ways. Check out this site for more details, plans, etc. http://www.gdlines.com/Timesaver.html 

Body mounted Kadee couplers will operate with number 4 switches (turnouts) and 48" radius track as long as cars are around 20" long or less. Your operation will be a lot smoother, particularly with backing operations. Trucks with couplers attached will tend to skew during backing operations, particularly if uphill. 

Hope this helps. 

Mike


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Ric Golding brings his time saver layout to the ECLSTS each year.

 

Here is a picture of it in his basement as part of his indoor/outdoor Kaskaskia Valley Railway.

 

Brandy Bruce Sharp also has a track plan on his web site.
To view the track plan and the track components required, click on the link.


----------



## scoobster28 (Sep 15, 2008)

What is the minimum/sensible track spacing for straight tracks for 1:29 scale equipment? My proposed passing siding might be on a curve, so what are the spacings for curved tracks too? Thanks.


I printed out the #5 switch templates from Garden railways tonight, and with a half-dozen of each and some kraft paper I plan to mock up a switching layout for a 12x12 room!


----------



## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

The answer depends on the length of the equipment you will be using and the radius. The longer the equipment and the smaller the radius, the greater the overhang, and the distance required between tracks. If you are using nominally 40 foot cars and small engines (like Koester used) and about 36" radius curves, then 7" track separation should be sufficient and you might get away with a bit less if necessary. Keep in mind, that if you are going to be uncoupling cars then you might want to leave a bit more room between tracks to facilitate that. 

A #5 switch (turnout) will have an effective radius of about 65". For what I think you are describing, that will be overkill. If you are going to use body mounted couplers then a 48" minimum radius with #4 switch is about as small as you can go. However, if you are going to use truck mounted couplers and short cars (40 foot) then #3 switches (about 24" radius) and smaller radius curves can be used. You probably already know this, but be aware that the diverging (curve) track in a numbered switch (3, 4, 5) is not a replacement for a curve track segment. Smaller radius commercial switches like LGB and Aristo, on the other hand, are designed to replace a curve segment of a given radius of their curve track. That makes a big difference in your track planning. 

Have fun, 

Mike


----------



## Guest (May 18, 2009)

on straights i plan a width of 6" for straight track. 
on R1 curves i add 1" - for 4 weeled locos and cars of 1 foot length. for every two inch of additional length of your cars, i would add 1" of width for the curved track.


----------



## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

At this point, may I recommend LGB R3 turnouts--which I believe are approximately number 3s? I don't think you'll have room for a number 5 in a 12x12 room; I have a 12x20 layout and I'm used to the space or lack thereof with large scale equipment. I think you may want to go as sharp as LGB R2(5.5' diameter approximate) on steady curves, but turnouts/switches should stay wider for trouble free operation.


----------



## Guest (May 19, 2009)

to be honest, i think in 12 x 12 he got no room for anything, save R1 curves ans turnouts. 
using R1 turnouts on each end, a simple siding for a short loco with tender and five short cars (one foot long each) needs ten foot length to be installed. 
a 90° R1 curve only on one end adds 2'3" to that. 

i am building a 46' x 16 1/2' layout, and i don't see, where i could insert the luxury of large diameter curves.


----------



## rgolding (Jan 2, 2008)

If you wish to view a building log of our new "Timesaver". It is located here - 

http://www.largescalecentral.com/articles/view.php?id=101


----------

