# Rio Grande prototype dimensions/specifications



## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Anyone know where to find good information on dimensions of D&RG/D&RGW locomotives? I'm thinking about future locomotive purchases and upgrades and I'm trying to decide which direction to go considering the cluster fornication that is large scale/scales. Everything I've got is 1/22.5 with my mainstays being LGB Moguls, along with a Forney, an 0-4-0, and my Bachmann Connie that is currently being downscaled. There's three types of engines I'm thinking of adding at some point in the near future, a 4-4-0, a 4-6-0, and a 2-8-0. I realize that with all these different scales its impossible to keep things looking right but I want it all to look plausible (for example I assume the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 would dwarf an Aristo C-16 which I think would probably bother me), so I need to see what sort of size differences existed in protoypes and to then compare how that translates into models.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a start. I'll have to get the book references later.

D&RGW locomotive roster (1939)

Click on the outline of the engine on the left side and some of the principle measurements will come up on the outline of the engine. 

Chuck N


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

the information is perfect on the locomotives they have but the two that I wanted to compare to the C-16s (the Americans and the Ten Wheelers) are only available on the DVD :-(


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, several years ago they moved a lot of their information to the DVD. There was a lot of very useful information that used to be on the site that is no longer there.


Chuck N 


PS John B. Norwood's book RIO GRANDE NARROW GAUGE on page 298 has has a drawing of a C-16. He only has drawings for Cs and Ks. The book is published by Heimburger House Publishing Company. It is a good source of information on the Rio Grande narrow gauge.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

hmm ok. I'll have to figure something else out. That's too much for me to spend right now just to find out which locos would look least out of place.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

You might check with your local library. If they don't have it, they might be able to get it on an inter-library loan.

Chuck


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah problem is I don't need info on the Kay's and the C-16 is relatively easy to come by. It's the Ten Wheelers and Americans that are proving to be the challenge.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The D&RG's 4-4-0s were very small locos. Bachmann's 1:20.3 4-4-0 is for all intents and purposes pretty spot on for those locos. There were subtle differences such as driver diameters, cylinder sizes, etc., but overall, the locos were quite tiny. According to one on-line roster I saw, they had a tractive effort of a mere 5600 pounds. (Less than half the C-16). The 4-6-0s would later be designated "T-12," which by D&RGW nomenclature would indicate a 12,000 pound tractive effort; still quite less than the C-16. (You are correct that the B'mann 4-4-0 dwarfs the Aristo-craft C-16). Accucraft's first 4-4-0s were done to 1:24, and Hartland's 4-4-0s are nominally about that size, though they're too compressed in terms of length to my eyes. 

Later, 

K


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By East Broad Top on 12 Dec 2010 09:36 PM 
The D&RG's 4-4-0s were very small locos. Bachmann's 1:20.3 4-4-0 is for all intents and purposes pretty spot on for those locos. There were subtle differences such as driver diameters, cylinder sizes, etc., but overall, the locos were quite tiny. According to one on-line roster I saw, they had a tractive effort of a mere 5600 pounds. (Less than half the C-16). The 4-6-0s would later be designated "T-12," which by D&RGW nomenclature would indicate a 12,000 pound tractive effort; still quite less than the C-16. (You are correct that the B'mann 4-4-0 dwarfs the Aristo-craft C-16). Accucraft's first 4-4-0s were done to 1:24, and Hartland's 4-4-0s are nominally about that size, though they're too compressed in terms of length to my eyes. 

Later, 

K 
Is the Bachmann big hauler ten wheeler scaled relatively close to the T-12's or closer to the C-16's? How big is their spectrum 4-4-0 (I imagine since its not quite as big as their Connie its maybe around LGB Mogul size). I agree about the HLW Americans looking a little short. For some reason the modern style one doesnt seem as bad as the old style one in the pictures, but of course the old style one is more what would have actually been run. I'd guess Accucrafts old 4-4-0's are pretty tough to find.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Is the Bachmann big hauler ten wheeler scaled relatively close to the T-12's or closer to the C-16's? 

The Bachmann Big Hauler is a fairly accurate model of the ET&WNC 10-wheelers, which were on similar in size to the RGS 10-wheelers built in 1916. Both of these locos had tractive efforts around 19,000 pounds, so they'd be larger than the T-12s and C-16s by a fair margin. Likely the drivers would work, but you'd probably want to put a smaller boiler on the loco. 

How big is their spectrum 4-4-0 (I imagine since its not quite as big as their Connie its maybe around LGB Mogul size). 

In terms of overall size, it's more on par with the B'mann 4-6-0. It's taller than the LGB mogul, but still fits in okay. 










Note that the cab on the 4-4-0 comes up even with the roofs of the passenger cars. The mogul cab isn't quite as tall. Having said that, the mogul is a bit fatter in the boiler and cab and has a larger tender. The 4-4-0 is plausible in a 1:22 setting, though its size would be more in line with a c. 1910 narrow gauge 4-4-0 than a c. 1874 narrow gauge 4-4-0. If you were to replace the fluted domes with round ones and put on a slightly lower straight stack and modern headlight, I think it would fit in much better. 

Later, 

K


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

That's all really good information to think about when I start looking at what engines to add. I'm no rivet counter (obviously since I'm modeling in 1:22.5 and my primary motive power are LGB Moguls lettered for the Rio Grande), but I like everything to at least seem plausible. Sounds like the Bachmann would almost be best and most accurately turned into a C-19 at least as far as its size goes (details are probably way off though). I have a an old dead Big Hauler, and at some point it'll be getting a BBT new drive, just was trying to decide between keeping it a ten wheeler or going the 2-8-0 route. Problem is I know the ten wheeler was the primary passenger engine for the Rio Grande for a while so would be nice to have one in the fleet. Samething with the 4-4-0. My understanding was that in the 1800's before they picked up what would later be known as the T-12's and C-16's, the D&RG's main passenger engines were the 4-4-0's and the Moguls were for freight.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

You might want to post a question on the Narrow Gauge Forum. Usually very helpful folk there who know a lot about the D&RGW. Here's a link:

Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum 


I'm like you in that we are a 1:22.5 layout. I had too much rolling stock to start over in 1:20.3. But this has limited our loco fleet. It took me a while to save up enough money and then to find the two main K class locos offered in 1:22.5 (An LGB/Aster K-28 and a K-36 made by KISS).


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

thanks for the link. I would love to have both a KISS K-36 and an LGB K-28 but I am years from ever being able to consider them. Sounds like the only special 1:22.5 model you're missing is the Sunset C-16. If I was starting from scratch I def be looking at 1:20.3, but my parents got me my first LGB engine 20 years ago when I was a little kid and the collection has been amassing since so it's not really cost effective to try to switch over. Besides rolling stock, as we've discovered trying to get enough clearance for our downscaled Bachmann Connie to get around the layout, it would require the redesign of the layout as well as the purchase of all new track to run any of the bigger 1:20.3. Plus its hard to beat the reliability and ease of operation of the LGB stuff, esp as my grandfather is now quite elderly and not as easily able to keep tinkering with trains just to try to keep them running.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I had a feeling the Sunset C-16 was 1:24?


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

no I'm pretty sure its 1:22.5 

http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=56301


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmmm, I too thought the Sunset C-16 was 1/24. Might be incorrectly labeled by Caboose Hobbies? I think there was a K27 made in 1/24 scale by PSC several years ago.



In addition to the LGB/Aster K28 and KISS K-36, there also is the 1:22.5 Magnus K-27. Not the most robust but still a good looking model:













We have a RGS K-27 that Dave Crocker converted from a Bachmann 2-8-0. Below is a photo he took of the finished model. I'll have to take a new photo of it as I've changed the headlight to one with lighted number boards, installed operating class lights, added whistle and bell ropes, and installed cab "glass":


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By San Juan on 14 Dec 2010 10:48 AM 
Hmmm, I too thought the Sunset C-16 was 1/24. Might be incorrectly labeled by Caboose Hobbies? I think there was a K27 made in 1/24 scale by PSC several years ago.



In addition to the LGB/Aster K28 and KISS K-36, there also is the 1:22.5 Magnus K-27. Not the most robust but still a good looking model:













We have a RGS K-27 that Dave Crocker converted from a Bachmann 2-8-0. Below is a photo he took of the finished model. I'll have to take a new photo of it as I've changed the headlight to one with lighted number boards, installed operating class lights, added whistle and bell ropes, and installed cab "glass":












You guys would probably know better than I would as far as the Sunset C-16. Didn't know about the K-27 in 1:22.5 Time to add another engine to the list of super expensive engines I'll want some day (along with that LGB K-28 and the KISS K-36). Does Mr Crocker do those conversions for profit? Dare I ask how much? Our Connie to Kay conversion is almost done (if we can get the drivers to stop binding) but because of our limited model making skills its not quite as fully done and I've half jokingly christened it a K-26.99 (already did decide to number it 449). It would be nice to have an actual K-27 that looks right.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

The C16's or Class 60 (there was a earlier (3" less in length the difference being by the cylinders I think; those were class 56) are big engines and they also have long tenders: about a quarter longer than the Bachmann tender. 

They will go round 4foot radius as they have flangeless drivers on axle 2 & 3. 

I built (on a Bachmann chassis) a model of the Cooke Moguls of the DSP, and have the new DSP version of the C16; comparative lengths are the mogul is about 25.5" abnd the C16 is 31" - both to the same scale. 

The K27 is larger still and the K36/37 are standard gauge (switcher) boilers on a narrow gauge chassis.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

TJH:

There have been some glitches in our electronic communication. I am wondering whether you received the drawings of the D&RG 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 that I sent last Saturday as an attachment to an email.


Chuck


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

got em. exactly what I needed. Thank you.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By TJH on 16 Dec 2010 11:29 AM 

Does Mr Crocker do those conversions for profit? 

Sorry I didn't see your question earlier. 

Dave did just this one conversion a few years ago. He has since changed to all 1:20.3 so I purchased his K-27 conversion since we still model 1:22.5.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By San Juan on 06 Jan 2011 12:47 AM 
Posted By TJH on 16 Dec 2010 11:29 AM 

Does Mr Crocker do those conversions for profit? 

Sorry I didn't see your question earlier. 

Dave did just this one conversion a few years ago. He has since changed to all 1:20.3 so I purchased his K-27 conversion since we still model 1:22.5.

It's all good. I'll have to start saving pennies for that Magnus one then lol.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Re the 1:22.5 scale K-27 bashes from Bachmann 2-8-0s, I've done several of these bashes, as have other people. The article Doug Hemmeter and I did is still here at MLS under 'articles' if you wish to try your own. Dave Crocker's was built from that article as well. I'm not really interested in building another, although I do have parts for just one more bash, but I was thinking of doing the original Compound version, slope back tender and planished Iron boiler jacket. 

Doug Hemmeter still does bashes and models on commission, so you could ask him about the K-27 bash if you're interested in one at 1:22.5 scale. 

Here are a couple of mine- 

Here was the first full version I did: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3f.htm 

and here is the last one only done a year ago or so: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3h.htm 

It all started when I did a simple experiment with the 2-8-0 to see if the concept was feasible, done a few weeks after the 2-8-0s first hit the shelves: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3c.htm 

sorry for the poor photos, but this was well before we got into digi pics! These were scanned prints! 

David.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By David Fletcher on 08 Jan 2011 04:17 AM 
Re the 1:22.5 scale K-27 bashes from Bachmann 2-8-0s, I've done several of these bashes, as have other people. The article Doug Hemmeter and I did is still here at MLS under 'articles' if you wish to try your own. Dave Crocker's was built from that article as well. I'm not really interested in building another, although I do have parts for just one more bash, but I was thinking of doing the original Compound version, slope back tender and planished Iron boiler jacket. 

Doug Hemmeter still does bashes and models on commission, so you could ask him about the K-27 bash if you're interested in one at 1:22.5 scale. 

Here are a couple of mine- 

Here was the first full version I did: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3f.htm 

and here is the last one only done a year ago or so: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3h.htm 

It all started when I did a simple experiment with the 2-8-0 to see if the concept was feasible, done a few weeks after the 2-8-0s first hit the shelves: 
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3c.htm 

sorry for the poor photos, but this was well before we got into digi pics! These were scanned prints! 

David. 



yeah my grandfather and I are doing ours now using your quick and dirty conversion as our inspiration. however our modeling skills are not yours and so our rear truck looks totally wrong and we were not able to fabricate the rear frame extensions, so we instead just put the big hauler cab as far back on the original chassis as possible. We've christened the engine a K-26.99 and decided to number her 449 since she's not quite a K-27. Still would like to have a full one though. I'll have to get in touch with Mr. Hemmeter sometime.


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