# When is the best time to buy building materials? OT



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am planning to expand a layout this spring and of course building materials (lumber) are much higher than when I last bought them.

We have some contractors and other builders here and perhaps they can offer some advice as to when it would be best to buy lumber etc.?

I had thought that perhaps lumber would be cheaper in the winter when construction is down but perhaps it would be cheaper in the Spring as building gets going. I am mainly talking about things like treated plywood, 2" x 4"s, 4" x 4"s etc.

Does anyone have the inside track on how lumber tends to be seasonably priced?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry....lumber prices have been going down for over a year. With no demand for new construction, the lumber industry has shut down 35% of the mills in the US. Prices peaked in 2009. The WSJ reported today that western lumber companies were hanging on by exporting logs to China...otherwise they'd be toast. 

As to paying more now than the last time...yep, probably true.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

True, and prices can change daily. Also realize a local lumber yard can often beat the big box store prices by significant amounts on lumber and materials themselves. But often this is not the case with tools, hardware, etc.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I had thought lumber should be cheap now but treated 1/2" 4' x 8' plywood is over $25 a sheet and even the woman at Home Depot said it was quite high and she expected it to go down.

Since I will need 12 sheets of plywood (plus the rest of the lumber, screws, carpeting, concrete etc.) I want to try to plan my purchase when prices are likely to be their lowest.

I have a favorite local lumberyard that I usually buy my lumber at (and they do beat the big store prices) but the last time I bought treated plywood from them it was very poor quality and one piece had already started coming apart. I was disappointed when I had to argue with them to get them to take it back so I am unwilling to risk buying plywood from them again.

I also know nothing about wood but it seems that all the lumber today seems very prone to curving and twisting - as if something was not done right to keep it straight. I cannot imagine how a carpenter could build anything with the lumber I find in all the yards.

Home Depot did have some cheap ($7 - $8) sheets of fairly thick particle board that looked as if it was treated plus it was tongue and groove which would be nice for a train platform but I don't trust particle board since it would be outdoors in the rain, heat, snow and cold with nothing but outdoor carpeting over it. I could paint it with Kilz but even then I don't know if it would be good outside yet I have occasionally seen particle board that has been exposed to the weather for years and seemed to hold up. I guess it has a lot to do with the glue used.

It would be nice if I knew what I was doing.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Jerry


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the best time to buy lumber is when you need it. If it sits around for too long it will want to warp or twist. Get the project done while the lumber is still straight (and wet) and it will tend to stay put. Shop around too. It seems that lots of varying grade are the norm. I just picked up some 1 x 4 on sale at Lowe's recently that was near furniture grade. The 1 x 6 at full price was not even good enough for kindling.


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

As far as plywood is concerned, I used to buy "shop blows." The price was always good and as long as I wasn't using it for structural applications (like subflooring or sheathing), there was no problem. 

The shop, usually was the result of a grade defect, like a pressed in defect. The blows were the result of delaminations or pockets where the glue line blew out. In fact I drug around some delaminated subflooring for 25 years, before I finally used the sheets. 

Shoot, if you are covering it with another material, so much the better. 

Fil


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 08 Feb 2011 04:11 PM 
... 
I also know nothing about wood but it seems that all the lumber today seems very prone to curving and twisting - as if something was not done right to keep it straight. I cannot imagine how a carpenter could build anything with the lumber I find in all the yards.

...
Wood is ALWAYS prone to curving and twisting....that's why they invented kiln dried wood. It's the moisture in the wood getting out of the wood that makes it curve and twist. Carpenters nail boards together...and that nailing keeps them from curving and twisting. 

I don't know what you're gonna build, but Bob had good advice....buy the wood when you need it. It's straight when you buy it....a few months later, if not nailed, it won't be.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I should have prefaced by saying that living in Las Vegas is a different story. Kiln dried lumber is usually about 10% to 12% wet. The humidity can drop as low as 4% here. Even KD will "pretzelize". Plywood will go wild in less then a day.

I still think it's a good idea to get it when you are ready to start work.


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Jerry, the off season is a good time to buy lumber. The prices at Lowe's and Home Depot stay pretty stable year round but they will pass on lower prices as the local lumber company will in the winter to entice prospective buyers. But like Mike stated, the prices have been coming down for awhile now because of the downturn in the housing market. If you have some storage room, see what you need and shop around. 
Ron


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 08 Feb 2011 09:54 PM 
I don't know what you're gonna build, but Bob had good advice....buy the wood when you need it.



You are probably right in that this is probably too early to buy the wood as I was going to just let it sit on the trailer until I was ready to use it (probably in a month or two).

This will be the third reincarnation of this layout which I originally built as 8' x 16' on a trailer to promote the hobby at train shows.





















When I got the caboose I changed it to a permanent layout expanding it from 8' x 16' to 12' x 40'.










The layout is of outdoor carpeted plywood with a 2" x 4" frame that is now supported by treated 4" x 4"s set in concrete.











It is probably overbuilt but it duplicates the design I came up with for my crawl space layout and is sturdy enough to support my 6' 5" 325 lbs body walking or crawling anywhere on it.










My plan is to approximately double the current layout from 40' x 12' to 72' x 12' to go from a figure 8 to separate reverse loops enabling me to move the rolling stock storage from below to on top of the layout in a covered freight yard/train shed. The expansion will also extend the layout to the rear steps of the caboose. I am also replacing all the brass track and turnouts with stainless steel ones because as I am getting older it is getting harder to move around to clean the track etc.


This will involve adding twelve 4' x 8' sections which involves enough carpet, lumber, screws etc. to be concerned about minimizing the cost.










Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Ron Hill on 09 Feb 2011 06:31 PM 
Jerry, the off season is a good time to buy lumber. 

If you have some storage room, see what you need and shop around. 
Ron 


Hi Ron, 

I may start picking up odds and ends like the carpeting and screws now but the lumber would have to stay on the trailer until I am ready to start using it On the other hand I may pre-build some 4' x 8' sections (when it gets a bit warmer) and lay them flat on the trailer rather than just loose lumber. I could not completely screw the plywood to the 2" x 4"s because I need the plywood off to cut the 4" x 4"s flush with the frames and then screw the plywood on top of everything. I guess I could put a few screws down to hold the plywood to the frames to keep everything from twisting and then remove them and the plywood to mount the frames.

I would think that would keep the wood straight until the frames are mounted on the 4' x 4"s. I don't want to start digging for the 4" x 4"s until the ground is soft enough to get them at least a foot into the ground and concrete.

In the past, since the plywood was treated and was going to be covered with carpeting, I did not stain or paint the plywood. It was usually pretty wet with the chemicals when I built it into the layout and I did not want to wait until it was dry before I put the carpeting and track down so I could start to use the layout.

For that matter I use treated plywood and treated 4" x 4"s but untreated studs to make the frames. I hope the 4" x 4"s would keep the termites away from the untreated wood but perhaps I need to either start using treated 2" x 4"s or somehow treat the ground to kill any termites in it.

Here again I am getting into things I don't know much about. I am not very good at wood working but I can at least make 4' x 8' sections of flooring and I can manage to mount the frames on the 4" x 4"s by myself. Anything larger and I would have to get or hire help to do it.

Jerry


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

That's cool. Phase I was great, Phase II greater and Phase III will be greatest.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 10 Feb 2011 06:09 PM 
That's cool. Phase I was great, Phase II greater and Phase III will be greatest. 

Hi Bob,

Thank you for the compliment.

This week the snow has melted, the sun has come out and the temperature is heading to the 60's. That got me to thinking about starting on the layout expansion a lot sooner than I had planned (like real soon).

I went to a couple of lumber yards and was quoted about $25 for a sheet of 1/2" treated plywood at HD and expecting about the same price I went to another (local chain) yard and was surprised to find that their 1/2" treated plywood was only $16.95 so I started thinking about an immediate purchase but since I would need 12 sheets I was concerned that the top 3 pieces they had in stock were warped. 

This led me to question them about how to keep the plywood from warping if it was going to sit a month or two and then I noticed on the printed quote they had given me that it said "treated plywood is not warrantied against" but it did not say against what. I assumed they meant against warping but no one at the store knew what the missing part of the statement said. They called one guy - he did not know. They called another guy - he did not know. They then called someone else and the missing word was "de-laminating."

What the heck good is treated plywood if it de-laminates? When I asked about this I was told this is because some people bought treated plywood and put Astro Turf on top of it and the Astro Turf kept the moisture on the plywood and could cause the plywood to de-laminate!!!

I told the guy THAT was precisely what I had intended to do - put outdoor carpeting on top of the plywood and put the train tracks on top of the carpeting.

While I have not yet had a problem with this layout due to "de-laminating" I suddenly realized that I had built the layout totally wrong and I should NOT have used plywood.

Now my plans are totally changing. Instead of duplicating the existing layout I will instead build a 12' x 32' deck using treated decking rather than plywood and instead of building in 4' x 8' sections I will build with 2" x 8" x 16' joists and in effect build two 12' x 16' sections.

That incomplete statement on the quote was the best thing that could have happened as it focused my attention on a huge mistake I was about to make.

It also means that when the day comes that we have to move (happens to everyone) the caboose will have a "deck" instead of just a model train layout for the future owners of the house, land and caboose.

Jerry


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

That was a good thing to discover sooner rather then later. It appears you sink the posts into the ground. Does the frost affect? I was wondering about those concrete blocks they use for patio foundation.

Our live steam layouts are so dull. Usually just a loop with some sidings for steam prep. No decoration, no scenes, no buildings, no theme. Just blaaah. This is an ideal arrangement. Elevated to get to the engine and some scenery. It feels like the train is going somewhere and doing something.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 15 Feb 2011 02:53 PM 
That was a good thing to discover sooner rather then later. It appears you sink the posts into the ground. Does the frost affect? I was wondering about those concrete blocks they use for patio foundation.

Our live steam layouts are so dull. Usually just a loop with some sidings for steam prep. No decoration, no scenes, no buildings, no theme. Just blaaah. This is an ideal arrangement. Elevated to get to the engine and some scenery. It feels like the train is going somewhere and doing something.



Hi Bob,

I sink the treated 4" x 4"s about 1 foot into the ground but first I put some Sakrete concrete mix into the hole so the poles are sitting on gravel/cement - to keep the 4" x 4"s from sinking further into the ground. Then I add enough water for the Sakrete to turn to concrete. Between the layouts that amounted to over 150 holes/concrete to support the layouts (44 holes for the current caboose layout). The layout extension will probably take another 32 holes but part of the layout will extend over the new septic tank so those 4" x 4"s will be left just sitting on top of the concrete septic tank (hopefully I won't need to get to the tank anytime soon).

This 4" x 4" and concrete construction worked out well for the main outside layout with no noticeable frost heave anywhere. I think that central Arkansas is warm enough for frost heave not to be much of a problem here (I hope).










At least with the switch to decking instead of plywood I already built the 12' x 10' gazebo decks that way so I will just duplicate that construction and make a 12' x 32' deck for the layout extension.

Of course it is easier to talk about it than to do it and 2" x 8" x 16' lumber is going to be more than I can handle by myself.

I found your comments about live steam layouts lacking anything mirror my own experiences with live steam layouts. I do not understand it since live steam itself is so prototypical. I think this layout will inspire me to bring out the Aristo live steam Mikado and start using it once in awhile. 

I am grateful that Lewis Polk saw fit to make his Mike with insulated drivers as that will allow me to run track powered switchers or other trains at the same time and even on the same track as the live steam Mike.

As for the patio blocks (I think you are referring to those that support 4" x 4"s) they would probably work fine and I have seen them used - particularly where the layout was built on rented property. One reason I did not consider using them myself is that I built this layout pretty much by myself and the holes in the ground helped keep the 4" x 4"s in place until I was able to screw them to something making them permanent at which time I then put the water into the Sakrete.

Considering that you are in Nevada I would not think that frost heave would be a factor for you to be concerned about but I'm no expert and I could be wrong. As with my previous choice of using treated plywood my ideas are not always the best ones. I just do what makes sense to me and hope things work out. At least this way if things go wrong I only get mad at myself rather than to get mad at someone else for perhaps having given me dumb advice that did not work under my circumstances or that did what someone else liked instead of what I like.

Jerry


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry: I was just curious about the frost heave problems. Definitely not a problem here. It's all looking good. That will be a great pike not too long.


Central Arkansas? Conway? Russelville?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Bob,

I usually say "Central Arkansas" because even Arkansans don't have a clue where Austin, Arkansas is. We are best found by saying near Cabot, Arkansas (northeast of Little Rock). 

The best way to describe it is that when I wake up in the morning all I see are trees and all I hear are birds (well - it was frogs this morning).

If you like I can send a photo of a tree as I don't think you have very many of them in Las Vegas.









Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 15 Feb 2011 02:53 PM 
It appears you sink the posts into the ground. Does the frost affect? I was wondering about those concrete blocks they use for patio foundation.

.



I am getting closer to buying materials to build the deck/layout extension. To be on the safe side I decided to look into the possibility of frost heave even though I live in the south (Arkansas).

Others might be interested in what I have found out:

Here is a great reference:

http://www.huduser.org/Publications/pdf/residential.pdf

and here is an easy way to find your Air Freezing Index to calculate your frost line:

http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/ol/9712/AFI-pubreturn.pdf

Based on that index I should be about 200 on the Air Freezing Index for the past 99 years and that apparently translates into a minimum footing depth of 12 inches which happens to be what I had been using when I built the caboose layout (more than 12" was too much work for me).

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

With all the talk on the news about the revolutions in the Arab countries the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that the cost of gas is going up up and up. With this in mind it stands to reason that the cost of shipping everything is also going to be surging upward especially the heavy stuff like lumber.

With that in mind combined with the mild weather we have started having I have decided to bite the bullet and go get the lumber before the prices change.

Not surprisingly I have once again redesigned the caboose layout expansion. Rather than a 12' x 32' expansion plus a 5' x 16' train shed I decided the simple and practical solution would be a 16' x 32' extension with the train shed built into it so below is the newest design and probably the one I will buy the lumber for tomorrow.










The extension is shown where it will be built with a 2" x 8" x 16' treated wood frame with 2" x 6" x 8' joists and all will be mounted on 4" x 4"s with 8' spacings and sunk into concrete 12" into the ground. Then everything will be covered with 5/4 x 16' treated decking which in turn will be covered with green outdoor carpeting. 

The deck will cover the septic tank but how often does one need to open up a septic tank? We have been here 20+ years and I never have been able to find our septic tank for the house. There is an access point for the septic tank between the caboose and the tank which should be good enough for the next 10+ years (I hope).

I still have not decided on the construction of the train shed but it will now be 4' x 32' with a single door on the right but possibly with the front and top hinged for easy access.

I hope I have thought of everything.

Jerry


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

The side that dries quicker will contract therefore curve up at the ends. 
Stick stack it and put some weight on top if not being used straight away. 

Timber will still warp even if it dries evenly and slowly because a tree has different tensions and pressures within the log, the outer part is under tension and the inner is under pressure. 
Think of it like a radio tower with guy wires, it is what makes a tree so strong and keeps it standing up. 
Nature, as always thought of it before we did. 
No matter how old and dry the timber is, as soon as you re mill it, the tensions and pressures will be released again and you get warpage of some degree. 
Different timbers react differently.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Paradise on 23 Feb 2011 01:32 AM 
The side that dries quicker will contract therefore curve up at the ends. 
Stick stack it and put some weight on top if not being used straight away. 

Timber will still warp even if it dries evenly and slowly because a tree has different tensions and pressures within the log, the outer part is under tension and the inner is under pressure. 
Think of it like a radio tower with guy wires, it is what makes a tree so strong and keeps it standing up. 
Nature, as always thought of it before we did. 
No matter how old and dry the timber is, as soon as you re mill it, the tensions and pressures will be released again and you get warpage of some degree. 
Different timbers react differently. 

Good points. It sounds like I needed you here today.









I went to the lumber yard and came home with:

13 2" X 8" X 16' 44 2" X 6" X 8' 4 4" X 4" X 12' 64 5/4 X 16'

So far we got all the 2" x 8"s cut to the length needed and even got one of them mounted (but it is not mounted right so I will have to take it down and do it over).









I think laying a flat deck is like flying an airplane. One of the hardest things to do is straight and level.

My back is telling me that I am going to pay for today's work.

Jerry


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