# Airwire T5000 arrived



## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

A big thanks to Jonathan at Electric Steam Modelworks. I had preordered a T5000 at the SWGRS. It seems everyone else was getting theirs and I was left out in the cold (We're in the 60's here). I only live 20 miles away, so something happened. Okay I confess, me (my Dog)







and the United States Post Office (USPS) don't get along, hence a P.O. Box. Anyways I emailed Jonathan and let him know, no T5000. He proceeds to send another one on 11-23-11. Come 2 days later not one but 2 T5000's are waiting for me. Both with identical addresses except one has postage dated 11-13-11 and one has postage dated 11-23-11. Go figure. Anyway I sent the extra back. Hopefully it doesn't have a problem going the other way. As for the T5000, it took me longer to unpack it and put the batteries in (the cover was super tight) then to program it. So all is well on the Rio Gracie. I have the C19 and SD-40 at my command.









Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Congratulations Tommy!!!

Glad to hear you finally got it. And you are right........it takes longer to unpack and install batteries, than it takes to program. We'll all have to get together at Russ Rutalj's and run. I am replacing the coal load in the #346 C-19 with a styrene one and the range is phenomenal with this new transmitter!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Glad to hear you like you new Air Wire controller. 

JJ 

PS According to what I am reading in the new the USPS is going to get worse.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey guys, have you tried doing an actual range test to see just how far you can get away from a loco and have effective control still? 

Lots to consider for My trains still!! 

Thanks for help! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been out a couple hundred feet. In your case, how far out will you need to be? Don't forget the T-5000 has adjustable power output.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Duplicate post.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

You may not connect me Paul, I have a rather large area to cover here!! Hence My reasons & need to 'push' the envelope in train world!! 

http://dmsry.blogspot.com/ 

would be nice to know if you could get even further out??..!!! 

Thanks - Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I have learned the power output is a result of receiver response - not up to individual changes on the part of the operator tho!! 

Dirk - http://dmsry.blogspot.com/ 

DMS Ry.


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

All be running my C-19 at the Fairplex layout using my T5000 this weekend. The layout is 100 x 300 ft.
Curious to see if she responds from a long end. 

Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well Tommy - have fun and enjoy your trip there!! 

Let us know here how your 'test' works out?!! 

Just for comparison, My layout area is large enough for 7-8 Fairplex's, all wrapped up into one layout! 

Looking more like I will try one of the T5000's with a QSI decoder in a new loco soon and see what I get here also!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry. - http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dirk 
your next to last post i do not under stand this is what airwire says " POWER LEVEL of Transmitter: The range is 0 to 10 with 0 being the 
minimum power, very short range but long battery life. A value of 10 is the 
maximum power level, furthest range and shortest battery life. 
The factory default setting is 5 which sets the output power at about the 
same level as an RF1300 or T9000 throttle. It can be changed at any time 
and is remembered even if batteries are removed."


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I think what I got was mis-communication between Airwire and Myself, 

So we can disregard my earlier point, THX!!! It was pointed out to me after my post....but then it also cleared the air......so all is well! 

Dirk


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

dirk 
ok i just did not understand what you where saying. i really like your layout keep pics. coming


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Dick, 

Thanks for your interest and pointing out my 'flaw', Still learning all the radio stuff for trains, and meeting the needs of a new layout! Exploring the many options..in and out of the 'Box'.. 

Need to get back to work on the layout - brake has been too long - getting thru My Dad's health and a car accident, so really need to get going again.. I need to see some progress... 

Dirk


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a great time running at the Fairplex.
Using the T5000 set at highest power level (10) I had motor control at over 250 feet but lost sound control (Phoenix) at a little over 100 feet.I also picked up a 2nd T5000 from Jonathan at the show.


Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a reason for that, and it is part of how DCC works, which was designed for communicating the signal over the rails: 

(remember this stuff was invented a while ago, so some of the basic design is not really needed in the same way with today's microprocessors) 

Speed commands are sent pretty much constantly... so if you have an interruption in reception, you will get another speed command in just a short while. 

So if you miss one or 2 commands to go a certain speed, it's not apparent and everything keeps going. 

Sound however, especially things like the horn/whistle, are only sent once or just a few times. (Clearly sending the horn command constantly would have it blowing continuously) 

So, the first thing that suffers from range is sound controls. 

You were also missing speed commands, but because the loco keeps going the same speed if it does not hear a new command, enough of the commands were received to allow you control. 

So you were most likely at a marginal control level of control above 100 feet, but you were not in a critical "stop" situation where you would notice a problem. 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
They have somehow improved the function command response. I have noticed that with my T5000,a G2 decoder and a Phoenix P8 that when a loco would normally be out of range for say a horn or whistle command that when I push the function button and get no immediate response I will still get the function a couple seconds later. Say I push it while a train is in a short tunnel. No response but as soon as it comes out of the tunnel it will play. Make sense? Years back the horn might stick on,that is gone too.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So - we're not getting out to over 200 ft than ......?!! 

Have others in the past been 'fooled' by this signal system also? 

Very interested ..... 
Very motivated to get further out also!!!!!!! 

Has anyone tried the small add on antennas for the Receiver board to improve range at all?? 

Too many hills and valleys,eh! but fun! 

Dirk - DMS Ry. http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, makes perfect sense Paul. 

In traditional DCC systems of higher caliber, the number of function "packets" sent is settable. For example, by default, the horn button might send 3 packets (the horn command 3 times).... but many systems allow you to increase this number in noisy situations, or in a "club" situation where there's many operators and a lot of commands flying along the rails. 

I would suspect, since early Airwire systems often had the horn "stick on" in certain situations, that they increased the number of "horn off packets"... (being a momentary function, there are horn on and horn off commands). 

I'm pretty sure they increased the number of horn off packets some time ago... I noticed the change myself. 

Perhaps they just added a few more "horn on" packets too... often this is just a setting to change from 3 to 5... I've had that on a poorly wired DCC system where there is a lot of loss and electrical noise. (not easy to do, but I've seen it) 

Regards, Greg


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, so at over 250 feet I could slow down, stop, reverse, accelerate, slow down, stop and resume forward speed and I have "marginal control"?So if was at 50 in 128 speed step mode on the T5000, and slowed down to 45, it would possibly skip 49, 48 and 47? Even at 10 feet away, I would not notice the skip.


I normally run in 128 speed steps but if I was in 14 step or 28 step mode, missing a few steps would be noticeable.
Also at 250 feet I had trouble just seeing the locomotive let alone determining if there was a delay in the response.








Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right Tommy, your second sentence is a perfect understanding of what I was trying to convey. 

Same for the 3rd sentence. 

The fourth sentence SHOULD be true based on what I know. 

And I heartily agree with your last sentence.. who NEEDS to run 250 feet away from the loco? (I know Dirk will say something here ha ha!) 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

THX guys!! nuff said already - think!! 

I can......... see great distances tho, BUT, ..not Super man - not thru hills or mountains!!!! ha!! 

Just Apples and Oranges - different setting, and a different layout!! 

Dirk- DMS Ry. 
http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Got it.

Just once a year at the Fairplex is the only time I'm more then 50 feet away from my locos. 

Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So Tommy - where do you come from!? 

Down by Greg? 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So Am I in BIG trouble for re-starting an ancient thread here!!!!? 

I'll step out now,... 

D - ducking for cover............


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a little north of Greg in Orange County. 
Lack of yard space sets the 50 foot rule. 

Bringing up this thread reminded me to see what the T5000 could do at the Fairplex. 
Thanks 

Tommy 
Rio Gracie


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk,
Don't take things so literally. No one is being fooled. Thats not a fair statement. Tommy was about as far away as you could get within the confines of the Fairplex layout, I was with him. I really think that in your situation you should try one install and actually test it rather than speculate on what others are saying. That should resolve your concerns one way or the other. I don't know of anyone else that has wanted to operate from as great a distance as you will apparently need. It sounds like you want to park yourself in a certain location and just let things run. Nothing wrong with that. Personally I like to be close to what I'm running so I can hear and see things.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Paul, 

Please understand I am only trying to expand My background and improve My learning curve for any radio set-up that might produce good results for My unique needs...I also know you have a vast back ground in this area, so better understand what I may miss interpret.. 

In response to My speculating, I have on My bench - just out of the box in the past 20 minutes!! - all the parts to put together what we have been discussing here!! A T5000 throttle, a Titan Magnum, and a G-wire receiver. I'm not blowing smoke here guys! And I will be testing in a very through sense, just what it is capable of!! 

At face value it certainly might seem that I want the impossible.... from a radio set-up. Some of My expectations are based on too many years of Flying R/C aircraft, which does not translate well into train world, yet does tell me what things should be capable of, when they are not doing so! I'm not truly interested in sitting in one place, and many have felt My reasons are centered on doing just this !! far be it! 

What I have been able to do and will share is this - I have run on some of the largest layouts in this state of Arizona, with lots of walking, not that I have a problem walking per say, but under trees and thru bushes gets old eventually. I do not want to offer some of the problems or downfalls I have seen and learned about on other great layouts, to visitors and guests on My layout.. 

I have tried to learn from others, and include improvements to both design and build an enjoyable layout - for Myself and the modeling community at large.. 

So if I need help and correcting along the way, I will graciously listen. I Do have certain goals in mind however also!!!!!!! I have a long ways to go yet.. But I have also set a basic foundation for my layout that is the result of My persistence to get what I want. So far this is working beyond what I could have ever hoped for, & now I hope for more!! Yes.. so I keep learning, asking, building, and improving as I move forward in this large scale hobby. 

I hope I can learn more from you in the future Paul! Thanks. 

...... Dirk - DMS Ry.http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Having been in the R/C business for large scale trains now for well over 22 years, I always find it somewhat amusing when newcomers arrive and decide nothing is available that meets the needs, or is good enough. In any radio based device or operation, the number of things you do not know or cannot control is far beyond the things you can control. I have a customer that I have seen operate their trains from well out beyond 400 to 500 feet. Now, they happen to reside in a pine forest, with NO civilization around for many thousands of feet , if not miles. In other words, the RF environs they live in are really clean. No transmitters, no processors, no light dimmers, no radios. Until you try a setup in your own environs, you will know nothing about performance because you know nothing about your surroundings and external potential sources of problems. Now , the customer that lives in the forest, if somebody builds a radio station next door, will they still get 400 feet plus???, who knows?? Ten miles or so from where i live, there is an EMI testing lab. They are located in a valley, in side a canyon. Surrounded by rock for a reason. They cannot completely control the environment, so they located in an area where they could reduce any external cause,in case it was necessary. I had reason to use their facility about 15 years ago in my professional other life. I learned a lot. They are still in business, so there is obviously a customer base out there. 
If you use Airwire,,or any other R?C system, and have problems, there are solutions that can be applied. however, unless you are willing to hire an EMI engineer, or do a site survey, you will never know what any possible external source, or combination of sources or factors is causing an issue, or even if it IS an external cause. The best part, is it may not be an external source, but something else too. Do you know how to build an effective shield /EMi dump for a noisy Chinese Loco motor? The vast majority of users do just fine, those that do have issues, they adjust, based on there own knowledge or skill, or those that help them. Do not overthink it. No one is FOOLING anyone. 
Jonathan 
www.rctrains.com


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

After Re-Reading this entire diatribe, I am convinced of one clear thought! 

It is not clear what any range is that anyone thinks they get........ 

Now before you guys blow a gasket, think this thru some........... OK 

Since the receiver is 'set at a default' to "continue" in lieu of any lost signal... one can not really "know they have control" at times of great distance... 

So - what is needed here is a black box that can monitor the same freq. and give a clear indication - when there is a lost signal...and is not set in a default mode to ignore a lost signal, but rather turn off a light at the point of a lost signal, with a light on during signal acquisition. This is the only way to know for sure what anyone's ranges really are..... 

No one is fooled here... just a nice magic trick, stop and think for a minute... the benefit of course is what we need to run Our trains. One that does not stop in a tunnel or behind a hill... 

Sorry If I want something that is not the norm, not in the comfort zone, not the same 'Ol everyday stuff.. 

I know I'm pushing the envelope, I'm not willing to accept the norm here, the 'rules' are made to be pushed !! 

Dirk...


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dirk 
if you set cv11 to say 15 sec. or less to get thru a tunnel or around a hill and than the train stops would not this do the same as your black box? only 
need to do ones or twice you would know the dis. for sure.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

if the continuous signal can be 'controlled' as you suggest, limiting the repetitiveness or disabling it, than I would think it should work!! 

As long as a random continuous signal goes out in regular intervals, - however - nothing can be learned.. 

Thanks for your thoughts here! 

Dirk


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dirk,

If you have issue with your radio link or range and have MAXED out the T5000 power output, the first place to look for improvement would be with regard to the RX’s antenna IMO… More can be gained here in most cases than doubling the mW output of the TX. In theory; doubling the output power marginally provides a 30% or so increase in range. 

Dirk queried if anybody had experience with the accessory external antenna offered by AW, these in theory should make a notable difference in range.

AW also offers some basic components for helping with EMI and or RFI as an accessory package. Way back when we used these simple components on all of our RC powered toys and such to mitigate “noise”. These simple components (capacitors-resistors-shielded and twisted wire) will increase the headroom in nearly all circumstance in my experience.

The 200-400’ range of the 900mHz AW equipment seems diminutive to me, anybody know what the output power is of the AW equipment? I have used 900mHz video equipment that could do two-three miles in FPV aircraft.

Since Dirk is in the sticks or so it would seem, spurious emissions of narrowband RFI would more likely than not be minimal whereas broadband EMI is of greater concern IMO. EMI or electromagnetic interference is generated onboard the locomotive in these circumstances. Typical radiated EMI sources are the cheap Chinese motors Jonathan alluded too and or conducted and radiated EMI via metal to metal abrasion!

I’ve been playing in the RC industry since I was 15 years old, been dealing with “noise” for many years, mostly with RC aircraft. I have had the pleasure of being associated with and sponsored by an OEM of Radio Control equipment going on ten years…. I've performed 1000's of hours of field R&D with regard to RC radio gear and power systems.

Michael Glavin


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

As you surmise Michael - it could be construed that I do indeed live in the sticks..Yep!! And it's nice, BTW! 

The only external radiation I know of for sure are the multitude of Micro wave towers just over 2 miles located on a hill.. 

This is a high density corridor for air traffic also, but I'm sure not so as to interfere with My toys! 

Dirk - :~ }


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

quote:"Since the receiver is 'set at a default' to "continue" in lieu of any lost signal... one can not really "know they have control" at times of great distance..." 

So, as Dick 413 suggested, simply turn off the "time to live " setting, and run a range check around the line. It can be reset to any acceptable time interval at any time. It is only defaulted to infinite, not locked . 
You will know exactly if and where any trouble spots exist. 

Jonathan/www.rctrains.com


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Johnathan, 

Thanks for your confirmation on this technique to use the existing equipment to check range with. A great help! 
.......................... 

I guess No one has had a need or a desire to run or test the add on antenna that Air Wire sells, as there has been no response to this part of the thread!?? 

Means I will have to try one myself than, eh! 

the shopping list grows more each day...! 

Dirk - DMS Ry. ...http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Another issue not mentioned on range is interference with others. I was running a Bachmann Annie on a friends layout two weeks ago. Stan O. brought out his LGB Mallet and was having some mild problems with control various control functions. It wasn't until after I had left and put things away that we both realized that he and I had our Airwire T5000 units set on the same frequency...the factory setting. I had raised the transitter power setting to 8 to handle the shape of the backyard and he had left his at 5 (factory setting), Didn't even think about it at the time since the layout owner uses a Revolution and the settings aren't the same. Anyway, when you have friends over and more than one RC unit running, good to check the frequency settings to make sure you aren't trying to ride over someone else... Ed


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