# Copper Fitting Problem



## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I know better but I did it anyway

I over tightened a hex nut on a 2mm piece of copper tubing and busted off the ferrule. I would really like to know how to fix a problem like this in the future and would welcome any suggestions on how to get started on a repair like this. The service is on a 60 psi steam line.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Can you post some images of the broken parts, and perhaps what it should be assembled?

What tools do you have available?


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ferrule's are easily purchased from PM, if you have the room to stretch the pipe to reach. If not a short piece of tubing of the same diameter, with a double female fitting will extend it enough to add a new ferrule and nut. I made double female fittings using the next size up from the tubing I wanted to extend. 
Hope this help. Not knowing the location or the room available, as Red said pics would provide a more precise answer.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Oof! Hate when that happens. You will probably need some silver solder and flux. A standard propane touch should be sufficient to the job.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe if its 2mm pipe it should be on a M5 threaded nut correct? I have the ferules in both 2 and 3mm and the tubing also. Best to try to desolder the old ferrule, whats left of it and solder on a new one. Though you need to get all the old solder off and with 2mm pipe its small. 

Of course this is all done while removed from the loco. Also after soldering the pipe will be annealed and very soft and can be easily damaged. After soldering you will need to pickle or deflux and clean the part in citric acid or something similar. Any silversolder 1100 deg and up is good for steam lines.

I use the 560 easy paste from Rio Grande supply for small joints like this.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Got in a hurry last night and posted without pictures. Took these off a tablet for the first time so bear with me if the don't upload right the first time.

As to tools and skills, I can solder but not braise. I have been using TIX solder for body work but worried that its melting point would be too low. I also have some Iso-Tip solder paste that claims to have a 500 degree re-melt temperature. I have both a temperature controlled iron and an assortment of micro torches.

The broken Ferrule is on the left on the white cloth patch.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Jay,

I would assume the nut is an M5. This is all Aster standard issue. 

Since this is a dead end into a pressure gauge, length isn't critical so I should be able to use the same piece of pipe, assuming I don't mess it up.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Ahh, now there's a horse of a different color. That's more reminiscent of a flare. (like brake lines) What is the diameter of the tubing? It's most likely smaller than 2mm.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, looks to me like you may just get enough length by lessing the curve to the pressure gauge to add a new ferrule, cleaning up the end and re-using the same nut, just moving the pressure gauge closer to where ever the curve originated. Just remember to anneal the pipe before attempting to re-curve it.
If you don't want to go through the whole silver soldering process, there are 'compression fittings' that don't need to be soldered, and I have used them with much success. Please keep us informed.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, I haven't seen 2mm compression fittings. If you know where I can get some I would greatly appreciate it.

I do have some silver solder that is good for up to 500 degrees according to their specs. Since this is not near the burner, I guess I can assume steam temp. 60 Psi saturated is 305 degrees - of course that assume not much superheating.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Last time I got them from Hobbylink.com. Quick look this morning and I easily found the 2mm tubing but couldn't find the fittings, short on time this morning, but I bet if you called they could help you.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Nick.

Jason says he has both tubing and ferrules at the Train Department. Probably going to buy enough to try to braise the fittings. Never braised before so I'll get enough for at least one botched try.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Just like soldering, only hotter. With smaller parts that can heat up quickly, there is danger of melting the parts. A standard propane torch is all you will need to repair your syphon. (But it can get hot enough to melt these sized fittings.)

Clean the parts, flux well, for smaller parts use smaller braze wire (if you can find it). Heat to a dull red; just after the flux turns back into a liquid (copper and brass will melt before cherry red), apply more heat to the larger part (not really needed in your case), then the hard solder should flow well. Don't apply too much as it can wick fairly easily and you can clog that syphon tube. 

I clean my parts before and after the process in diluted battery acid from an auto parts store. The cleaning will prep the part, very important for flow. It will also clean any residual flux, which is also capable of clogging the line, the flux becomes almost glass like and is somewhat difficult to remove.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe, I'm sure you will get great satisfaction repairing the problem yourself. And if you have an issue with the fittings, others on this site will silver solder the fittings for you, probably just for postage. Very knowledgable and helpful folks here. Keep us informed.


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

My local Ace Hardware store carries a nice fine silver solder w/ a tube of flux.
Works great for fittings.
Alpha Fay 53500
50% silver melts at 1205°

Harvey C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

4% silver solder available from hardware or Home Imp. stores, low temp melting point. Although standard 60/40 solder will do fine.

Tips courtesy of Kevin O’Connor;
To keep solder from filling the open end of the cone, using a common wood type pencil insert the point into the cone open end and rotate it a couple of time, leaves a dusting of lead on the edge. Keeps solder from filling the the open end.

Rather than feed solder into the joint when the heat looks right…
For something this small wrap a small short length of solder around the pipe at the joint – one loop only. Apply flux, heat. Instant temp reaches melt, solder flows remove heat quickly. Done. 

Small piece of solder;
Flatten a piece of solder wire so it’s like a ribbon. Cut a thin length from the ribbon. This is what you wrap around the pipe at the joint.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, thank you for posting the tips form Kevin O'Connor. I especially appreciate the one about the pencil lead keeping the solder from filling the open end, as Ive had that happen. Thank You


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

All good advise
Whiteout also works to keep the solder away
Steam temperature at 60 psi is at the most 300 degrees but the copper pipe (which is exposed to air on the outside) would be closer to 200 degrees. Almost any soft solder will work
also, as mentioned, a short (1/16" long) piece of the next size copper tubing can be used to make a ferrule


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, as you and Chris mentioned, I've have had success using soft solder on fittings close to the boiler, and none have failed so far. Frankly I was afraid to mention it thinking I'd be chum for those that charge for the repairs. 
After purchasing the compression fittings, I learned how to make them using the next size up of copper tubing, I don't have a lathe and use drill in a vice to make my part, so it's try and try again till it fits properly. I blacken the mating taper with a Sharpie, compress it slightly, rotate it and that tells me where I need to take off a little more. When I have it fitting properly, I use Permatex HighTemp Thread Sealant, but that is more of a lubricant to allow the parts to slide till they are fully seated. 
Using what is on hand is quicker (than waiting for the mail) and far less expensive. And the more I can do myself the more satisfaction i get, and that is priceless.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

UPDATE: 

Jason (The Train Department) had the 2mm ferrules I needed and has shipped them to me along with some spare parts to practice on.

While I'm waiting I've been practicing on some spare copper tubing I have. All I have is English size (our local country store doesn't stock the degenerate metric stuff) but I was lucky enough to have to sizes of tubing that were close enough that I could cut a ferrule out of one to fit over the other.

Tried two different solders. In the picture the top one was made using some solder paste I use for body work that is good to about 450 degrees. The bottom ferrule was made using the solder paste Jay recommended from Rio Grande supply that is good to over 1200 but is trickier in that you have to get the tubing red hot in order for the joint to take.

The regular solder paste was much easier to handle and should be good enough for this application since it is outside the firebox. Using the higher temp solder (did I mention it's rather expensive) I got a much stronger joint. In the second case your are creating a copper/silver alloy to weld instead of solder.

Once my factory ferrules get here, I can see any problem fixing the tubing in just a few minutes and then it's on to the boiler test to make sure everything is pressure tight. If all the fittings are tight enough, it will be another first for me.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The higher temp stuff actually brazes rather than welds the material together. It is probably 40% - 50% silver which makes it so expensive 
Congratulations on your successful tests.
Both look very professional.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill

Its 56% 

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Silver-Paste-Solder-560-Easy/103099?Pos=1

If you add up the silver solder and the flux costs, its actually cheaper to buy it this way. And for small parts its so much easier to use. If it dries out any over time I just add a drip of distilled water, same as my brazing flux when its drier then I like.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Jason
I'll have to try some
$26 for a one oz jar, 65% solder, 56% silver leaves a total of 36% silver for a cost per troy oz of $72
The last Silver solder I picked up at the welding supply house was about $35 per Troy oz.

The definition of a Troy oz is the weight of silver and not the weight of the solder according to my supplier. which makes sense as sometimes the 50% is the same price as the 45%

So, it is about double the price but probably worth it when you consider how much you waste on every job especially with 1/16" solder vs the 1/32" thick stuff which I have been using more often of late.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill its sold in Troy Oz.....


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

My ferrules came in this afternoon from The Train Department. 10 minutes of cleaning the joint, a slight modification of the ferrule, a little silver solder paste and I was ready to apply some heat.










Jason, if you noticed, I had to modify your ferrule. The European style has a sleeve behind the fitting that the Japanese collar wouldn't fit around. The judicious use of a jewelers saw to remove the sleeve and it fit perfectly.

And here is the boiler passing its pressure test.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good. The tail on the 2mm ferrules is supposed to fit through the nut so either drilling the nut or cutting it odd does the same thing. With the 2mm pipe having the longer joint may be stronger. I forgot you didn't order any nuts as using the Regner nut nothing needed to be cut or drilled. 

Is that a Krauss?


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason,
I wanted to keep the Aster nuts so I wouldn't have to worry about thread size. When I saw the extra sleeve on the 2mm ferrules, I figured then probably went through the Regner nut. Really do like the Regner ferrules better. Not nearly as sensitive as the Asters in having everything exactly parallel and a lot stronger.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The thread is the same M5x.05 Used on Accucraft, Aster and Regner


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

All done and bench run for over an hour. Doesn't match the other engines or the layout but she is terminally cute.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I though for a while what I can do with one in 7/8ths but I kept talking myself out of a new project with no time.


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