# attempted coal fired boiler



## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

Hi all, 
After posting here some months ago , and taking on board some of the comments , I have done a complete re-design of the LBSC's "DOT" that I was building so as to make a proper G1 black five.
After studying Don Young's excellent drawings for his 5" gauge model , looking at hundreds of photographs and spending many hours with the 3D modeling software I think I now have something.
Nothing is left from "DOT" , but a huge amount of experience , and dozens of castings , but hopefully what I have learned will cut the time for the next loco ten-fold.
The only part left for complete design and construction is the boiler , and I decided that I would have a go at a coal-fired version. I must thank Harry Wade for his advice on certain aspects of the design , as I didn't really know how small a furnace would work.
I thought that the process I have used might be interesting for some of you , although the boiler isn't finished yet and proceeds in spurts in between paying jobs.


Actually I am on the third revision now , having had difficulty in producing the thing to accurate dimensions.
The boiler barrel is tapered and I could not get it correct to my satisfaction using a wooden former and I had no suitable material in stock to turn a former from.
Then I looked at an old 3 leg tinsmiths stake that had been lying about for years , one of the arms, or legs, was about the right taper but 1/4" to big on the diameters.
After 10 minutes with the angle grinder and a thin cutting blade I was black from head to toe and had a two leg stake plus a large lump of very nice cast iron.
Do I hear shouts of sacriledge - well needs must etc!












Half an hour later , I have had a good wash and blown the crap out of my nose , now I remember friday nights at my local back in the 60's , most of my mates were apprenticed at Alfred Herberts and after a week of machining cast iron didn't get clean until sunday LOL!
Anyway after some setting up I had the thing between centres in my little Emcomat 7, and with the tailstock set over 3 cuts later I have a perfect tapered boiler former - 1.69°.











It was then just a few minutes and I had a lovely tapered copper tube ready to rivet and silver solder down the seam.












The throat-plate needs to fit snuggly into the tube so I thought I would make a press tool to form the flange !












Today's job is to make a steel former for the throatplate but I am aching a bit so I thought I would write this instead.
During my search for materials I visited a local yard, in a shed I was shown various bar-ends and was quite taken by some 2 3/4" and 2 1/2" bits about 3" long , perfect for punches and dies etc , and the wheel rims for my loco.
As I can't cast iron at present I was planning to make my wheels in brass and fit steel rims.
I got as many as I could carry and gave the guy a fiver.
I set up a piece of the largest diameter and started turning it , boy this is tough stuff.
There was a spec etched on one of the bar ends so I looked it up on the good old net.
Turns out to be M152 - 17% chrome ,nickel moly steel for use in aircraft turbines , now that makes sense as there is a famous turbine factory not 5 miles away.
This is be-eautiful steel ,slow to machine on my small lathe with no coolant and no carbide but the finish is superb , the turning are a pain and with no chip-breaker come of as one mile long piece.
There must be fifty to a hundred pieces or more so if you want some good steel cheap now's your chance.
If you live in the UK of course!


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

80 view and no comments ? well never mind , I will thrill you some more with the next days work !
As I said earlier I had already made a couple of hardwood formers for the throat-plate and wasn't happy with the results , so I decided to have another go in steel , and found a nice piece of 1/2" thick flat in my odds box , got a few holes from other uses but useable !












I don't go in big time for marking out , can never find my scriber , get blue everywhere and can't see the lines anyway , so I printed a full sized picture of the job and glued it onto the steel.












I allowed 1/8" around the actual size and centre popped every 1/4" along the outer line.
Using a drill 10 thou under 1/4" I chain-drilled the plate.
After 4 hours of drilling , sawing and judicious use of my favourite precision tool, the trusty 4" angle grinder , followed by a bit of filing and polishing and I had the throat-plate former, and very sore hands.












To make sure that the boiler barrel flange is located true , and to hold the copper whilst bashing I turned up a piece of the previously mentioned steel bar,
I digress here , I have quite a large quantity of throw-away tool tips but only a small boring-bar holder , a neighbour "borrowed" me a holder from work and the turning was definitely easier this time round , after I had re-threaded my tool-post as I stripped one of the clamping screws tightening the bloody thing!












So, previously stamped blank annealed , clamped in place , two minutes with the rubber mallet , and a few taps with a planishing hammer , doubles as a ball-pein, later.












and here's the plate ready for pickling !












yes I have cheated , I had trimmed off the surplus before taking the photos but I am sure you get the picture !
my old vice is looking sad , but boy has it done some work in its life ! it's solid steel, I have broken several cast-iron vices in the past but I can't break this bugger even with a 4 foot scaffold tube as a lever. It might get a lick of paint this summer , or should I paint the kitchen , the spare-room , the living-room


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

abby, 

Very impressed with the craftmanship and much appreciate the effort you have put into teaching about what you're doing. Thank you. 

Steve


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Excellent work and even excellenter pics!!!! Keep 'em coming, please.

Lots of luck with the project, and BTW, are you in the G1MRA?

If not, why not?

Besp

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby

Excellent work. I found you photos and explanations most interesting. Its not often we find this quality of work in Gauge One.
My only concern is that coal firing in a narrow firebox in this scale is going to be tough. That is not to say it can't be done but it's not easy.

Anyway, keep up the good work!


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

80 views and no comments?


Abby, 
Most of them don't know what to say because this rather complex work is foreign to the present state of mainstream US Ga1. This is model engineering in it's essential sense.


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## mudhen103 (Mar 2, 2009)

Posted By Old Boy on 03/13/2009 3:22 PM
Most of them don't know what to say because this rather complex work is foreign to the present state of mainstream US Ga1. This is model engineering in it's essential sense. 



Old Boy, all the other coments were positive as it is nice work. Is it always raining where you are?


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Beautifull work!! Sure wish I had an teacher near me as I would love to learn how to do this and build my own coal fired engine. Cant wait for more progress pics. Mike


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## macbookman13 (Jan 22, 2008)

Abby, Please keep the photographs coming. I am contemplating a boiler project am you are providing inspiration as wall as education. Beautiful work!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby
Learning is key to making the hobby grow and your post of the process for making the boiler teaches a lot on how to overcome via innovation to make it happen.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks to all for the enthusiasm , it makes it worth while , Tac I am not a member of G1MRA , I did try to join a couple of times but got no reply so I don't think they want me , AsterUK I too am not sure about the coal firing so I am making a spirit fired version along side just to hedge my bet.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

There is no doubt in my mind , that after the lathe and drilling machine a press is the most useful tool to have in a small workshop , here in the UK they are becoming scarce , the demise of our industrial base has seen hundreds of thousands go to the scrap yard. Most likely returning home resurrected as a chinese manufactured machine tool.












This is my fly, or hand press , it is rated as a no.3 and has a force of about 1 1/2 tons but they were made from very small to very large and all look similar.
The power is supplied by swinging the handle and thousands of women were employed in Birmingham making every imaginable item from jewelry to armaments.
I use my press for lots of different jobs besides punching , and I have made a tool for quartering wheels whilst pressing them onto axles , broaches for making square or hexagon holes and jigs for bending sheet metal. Because the power is supplied by hand the fly press is slow compared to a power press , but tooling can be very simple and cheap to make.
Because some of you expressed interest I thought some very basic press tool instruction might go down well.
Although all of the parts for this boiler could be made by hammering the copper on wooden formers I want to make a few so that I can try out different flue arrangements and spirit firing and also I just love making tools.
The next part of the boiler is the end plate , this is just a disc with a flanged edge , the flange provides a good contact area for silver soldering and locates the end plate securely into the boiler barrel. I prefer to use a flange wherever two pieces of copper join and would never use a butt joint . As for grinding or filing off the surplus copper , certainly not , no qualified boiler inspector would pass a boiler treated in such a fashion.
This end plate tool is designed to do all the required operations with minimum tool changes and the die - female part - fits into the centre of the die used for the throat-plate,












The die has two internal diameters , the smaller being the same as the end of the boiler with a generous lip radius to help the metal form gently , and the larger being 1/4" bigger to provide metal for the flange.
I have used good quality steel for both the punch and the die , as a general rule if the hole is important then harden the die and leave the punch soft , if you are only interested in the slug of metal then the other way round. Punching tools should have around 1 thou of clearance.
The punch has two external diameters , one end has a clearance fit in the large die diameter and the other end is smaller than the small die diameter by twice the copper gauge and is radiused as per the metal gauge.
The punch is threaded 1/2" whit right through end to end and is screwed onto a threaded holder in the press ram.
All the machining operations are turning or boring in the lathe so I am sure you don't need pictures!
Copper sheet positioned under the punch.












and pressed , leaving metal slug in the top of the die.












punch unscrewed and reversed












pressure applied to the blank , see it forming !












lets make another one












and heres the result straight off the press so to speak !












fitted into the boiler barrel












just a slight gap where the tube seam touches












this can be closed before silver soldering by gently tapping with a piece of suitably shaped brass or wood
I'll just see how it looks on "DOT"





















Just need the holes for the flues and blower pipe flange but got to go play ball now !


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

That is really cool stuff! I certainly admire your tool making abilities. I'm sure I'll never build a boiler like that but I love seeing what goes into it.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

Abby, 
The press looks custom made for just this work, what a lucky find. When it comes to hole drilling save yourself a few tears, . . . don't reach for the twist drills, get yourself a "Uni-bit" or whatever your local equivalent is. These makes short, neat work of flue and bushing holes in thinnish copper.


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## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby

What a great result so for. Your process makes for fascinating reading. please keep it coming.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

I hate to be redundant, but this is a fascinating thread. Thanks for taking the time to share with us.

We will be anticipating your updates!
Matt


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

This boiler , is for a Stanier class 5 locomotive , but no-doubt people with more knowledge than me will say "it will also fit a " , and I am sure that would be true with very little alteration .
It is largely in fine scale , but the wheels are G1 standard scale , as I believe this has more wide-spread usage in garden railways
It is part of a complete loco build project from scratch. Although I am lucky enough to earn my somewhat meagre living in the model engineering field it is by necessity a "part time" project and I expect it to take the best part of a year to complete.
Any comments on aspects of design will be appreciated , I class myself as a noob to model railways.
Then I will need rolling-stock and a railway to run it all on.
This first version of the boiler is to experiment with coal-firing , many people say that this is difficult in small furnaces , I don't know , so I will also make a spirit fired version just in case.
Much of the design is scaled from full-size and ideas have been taken from other well respected designers of larger scale models , but much will be unique , I believe , especially the extensive use of lost-wax castings produced from rapid-prototyped patterns.
As well as being an exercise in model engineering , it is also an exercise in 2D/3D cad , production methods and tooling.
This is the computers idea of what it will look like !












and the fit between the frames.














Looking into the cab












and from the front












more later.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby,
Your project is truly a work of art! I'm sure Curly would be proud of your effort! Your presentation and pictures are first rate and done in an engaging manner. I look forward to your next installment.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Abby, 
I think I finally figured out that the press in the photos is what is called a screw press over here. I am guessing that there is a screw with a hand wheel and a ball weight. The operating handle can be seen in the photo as a vertical rod. These are scarce in the US also and the ones on ebay are not cheep. 

I do a bit of bronze casting in my shop and I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. 
Dan


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

Sorry Dan , I should have called it a screw-press in the first place , I have been guilty of dispatching hundreds to the iron foundries in the past , along with small milling machines and lathes but fortunately I have a far-seeing buddy who has saved 20 or so various sized screw-presses , "well they don't eat anything" he says !
I wish you could see his yard , it's actually a boat yard with a 80 foot dry-dock for building what we call narrow boats.
These boats or barges carried the heavy trade on a nation-wide system of canals before the railways came , but were finally finished by the big freeze in the 1960's.
However recent years have seen a massive increase in pleasure traffic and much money has been re-invested to repair and beatify the canals.
It is claimed that Birmingham has more canals than Venice and many of the warehouses and factories that lined the banks have been torn down and replaced with modern buildings and plazas that are breath-takingingly beautiful.
Anyway his yard is like a museum of scrapped items from old single cylinder petrol engines to complete cast-iron buildings , there is even an original Thomas Crapper water closet LOL !
Back to the subject , I suppose an hydraulic garage press or even a large vise could be used to the same effect, but provision would need to be made to keep the parts aligned , like in this tool for pressing wheels onto axles and quartering at one go.






















This does mean that the tools are a bit more complex and take more time to make.
I found sand casting to be a bit of a black art , something would work one day and fail the next , so I had a dabble with lost-wax casting and after developing some equipment found that I could produce castings with a 95% certainty that they would be sound. The actual moulding and casting is very easy and reliable , the real job is producing the wax patterns - one for every casting - accurately and most importantly cheaply and I use many methods including high pressure injection into fully machined dies or just pouring into rubber moulds.
Much of this loco project uses lost-wax parts requiring very little finishing and the minimum of machining , although the parts are predominantly in gun-metal (red-brass) I have also used nickel-silver where a steel or cast-iron finished look is required.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

I have decided to make the fire-box next , just to convince myself that it will be big enough to burn coal. I am going to use 18 swg copper for this which will be quite difficult to shape at so small a size - well I think so. 
I have departed from the original design here , the belpaire is tapered front to back on the top and sides and the fire-box should follow suit, but I am going to make it with parallel sides and top. 
This means that only one former need be made , but to keep enough water space around the fire-box I will have to make both ends to the smaller size. 
I used the same procedure as for the throat-plate former , chain drilling , sawing , angle grinding and file finishing. 
first hole. 










and the last hole , thank the lord. 










now to band-saw between the holes , this knackers the blades really quick but I'm lazy. 










all done , now wheres my angle grinder lets annoy the neighbours 










sometime later and its finished except for the 20 degree slope to match the throat-plate 










This will have to be the last post from me , it seems that my picture size is breaking the forum rules. Unfortunately I have already uploaded several future pictures which I have attempted to edit on Photobucket but it takes several minutes just to change one and so I have given up. 
Anyone who has found this of interest can read the rest of the article by visiting www.unionsteam.co.uk/forum 
all the best Dan(abby)


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby, you have lot of patience drilling that many holes! 
I suppose I will have to check in on the site you referred to, because I am very interested in your work, and if you can make this happen. 
I hate that you won't be posting anymore, but appreciate what you have shown us. 
We'll all be rooting for you! 
Take care, 
Matt


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

We're working on relaxing the pixel size limit somewhat. More forthcoming shortly. I already sent Dan a PM pertaining to this and requesting that he continue to share his work.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

Dwight many thanks for your considerate action , the unionsteam forum is hosted on my own computer and with the upload speed constraints would have been slow for more than one visitor at a time , but please don't be put off there will be lots of stuff about casting and general model engineering that will be interesting to some of you.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

I discovered a snag when attempting to make the slope on the former , 1/2" thick plate ain't thick enough ! this is a good example of working without thinking , which I will admit to.
I usually see what I want in my mind , and make it ! then throw it in the scrap bin and start again.
If the full slope was cut in the steel the former would be separated from the main piece and then it would be more difficult to hold during use.








Down there for dancing as they say in Liverpool , I cut the complete slope on a second piece of scrap steel and finished the forming using this!








The forming of the plates was surprisingly easy even in the thicker copper but  it needed annealing twice during the process .
The front plate was made using the sloped side of the former.








and the back using the flat side , 








again generous radii on all the edges of the formers produce a nice rounded finish , with less danger of thinning out the metal during the hammering.








There is no doubt in my mind that the steel formers are well worth making and I am getting pretty quick at it now , but for the firebox wrapper it's back to wood.
As with most metal bashing there is a lot of clamping to , and vice gripping of the formers , so a good hardwood gives best service and I am lucky enough to have a supply of well seasoned off-cuts which are usually flat too.
No thinking required here , I just drew around the flat plate and cut it out on the band saw.
Had to do it three times and glue the pieces together though because my little band saw starts to wander with cuts deeper than an inch !
After leaving overnight for the glue to set it's a sand papering job until the shape and size are right.








Bit of an anti-climax after hammering the end-plates , the wrapper formed very easily in just a couple of minutes and only required a little persuasion with the rubber mallet and a piece of inch diameter bar.








Excess material trimmed of with tin-snips and checked for fit before pickling , riveting and silver soldering. I hate wasting material and usually make a thin card template of the shape and size needed for the job but there is still a fair bit of trimming to do.
It's coming together.
























and the fire space looks quite big in the flesh , so to speak , it might actually work !








I'll just check the water space clearance and call it a day.


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## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

I have pickled the fire-box parts , and riveted the tube plate to the wrapper , I also punched the tube holes in the the tube plate and boiler end plate using a small punch and die in the press , location is from a 1/8" drilled  centre hole.












I had to mark the hole positions and they are not perfectly aligned , the shape of the tube plate is not perfect either. The reason for this is that in my haste I used the wrong drawing.
Each plate has 3 drawings , 1 is the wrapper , 2 the plate and 3 the former. Each plate differs by the thickness of the material to be used. I used no.2 drawing and was nearly 0.1" oversize. Realizing my mistake I had to remove the excess steel from the former and lost the proper contour and tube centres.
A good lesson in measure twice cut once.
Never mind , a little more gentle persuasion with the hammer gets everything closed up!
The two leg tin-smiths stake from the very first picture comes into its own here , both for the riveting and the shaping, the thinner leg is ideal for holding the rivets and for hammering against.












I cut the 1/2" bore boiler tubes a bit over on the length and put a flange on one end by simply flaring the tube with a lathe centre and then flattening the flare with a hammer.














The tubes are now dropped into the holes and the end plate keeps them correctly aligned whilst being gently clamped between two pieces of square-ish fire brick.












The whole assembly is eye-balled for square , before being given a liberal fluxing. A few bits of fire brick are useful to direct the heat. I use a self blowing propane torch with an inch diameter nozzle and apply the heat from outside. when the flux is well fluid and the temperature is a nice red I add the silver solder from inside feeding it into the joints and watching it flow. An occasional dip of the hot solder rod into the flux powder will add fresh flux if needed.
I use silver solder with a small cadmium content , I find that it flows better although the health and safety people are trying to curtail it's use












The solder was added from the inside but has run through the joints, including the rivets , and formed nice fillets around the tubes. It will be almost impossible to repair any leaks in the firebox after final assembly so good soldering is essential.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, this is so cool to watch, thank you. Makes me want to attempt one. 

Woo hoo, Sox just won the Home Opener against Tampa Bay!! 5-3 Go Sox!!!


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