# Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?



## OBB_LGB (Nov 19, 2010)

Hi again folks. This is the continuation of a newbie's attempt at a layout.

SO thank you to all the great responses on my first post. For now I'm not going with rack rail, but instead I will try to make a fairly slightly graded layout look interesting. 

So I've been designing a layout in 3rd PlanIt using LGB sectional track. I am using mostly 1000 straights, 1100 (4ft radius R1) turns and mixing that with 1500 (R2 8ft radius) turns. I've also been putting straights in between turn segments to break them up. I have not more than 2 or 3 turn sections in a row before I throw in a straight.

It really makes the layout look bigger and more natural, at least judging from the plan. Just to note, this is not a prototype rail, just a little charming mountain layout, so I don't care if it's not totally realistic.

With mixing the 1100 and 1500 turn sections however, I'm finding that when I come around to connect to where I started, in 3 instances, the track is only slightly off. Using the makeup track, I can get it very very close. Do these tracks need to line up PERFECTLY? How exact do I have to be? In 3rd PlanIt, this seems to be the only way to get the layout to officially close up (unless I can tell it to make some custom cut track or something).

If it's a simple such as "NO, never do that." Then no explanation necessary. I will readjust my layout accordingly. If there's a chance though, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'll be uploading a picture of my layout from 3rd planIt as soon as I can, if it helps.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

YES, DO IT! 

and if you feel up to it, go bend your sections as you need them. 

where ever possible i don't put a R1 curve directly behind or before a straight. if the curve begins and ends with a R2 it looks less sharp. 

here - http://supersol-chaco.net/korm/tracks/ - you can see some pics, how i lay my re-bent R1 curves. 

edit: putting some straights between the curve sections does not help you. the hardest (and optical less pleasing) points are the connections between curve and straight. that is the point, where the aixles have to realign themselves and work like brakes.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

As Korm said, you can "hide" R1 turns in R2/3s on either end. 

LGB et al brass track "cuts like buttah" with a normal hacksaw, so no need to force things if they do not line up or buy short bits. Feel free to hack.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

I would suggest you do your own conversions to get the actual Foot number from the mm diameter of the track. As I understand it foot measurements are aporoximations, usually larger for the wow factor. 

There is some fudge factor, but that depends on whether you like smooth flowing mainline trackage or a more herky jerky backwoods shortline. Or something in between... 

The easiert way to follow your plan would be to use flex rail and bend your curves to fit. 

I use Stainless Steel track and have cut sections as needed. 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

In the LGB system R2 is closer to a 5' diameter than 8' radius. R3 is nominally 8' diameter and R1 is 4' diameter, not radius.


Chuck N


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

When it comes to the conversion of Metric to Imperial, I was directed to this web site http://members.westnet.com.au/susprog/AristoTrack.htm on the Aristo forum that might be of interest in this thread. My originating question had to do with the EXACT conversion of said Metric to Imperial. Was a '20 ft' diameter circle really 240" diameter, as I plan to be fabricating spline (ladder) support for my track and will be bench fabricating before moving outside. 

Hope this helps. 

Bob C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

I've been watching the responses, and really cannot agree with the "it's fine" recommendations. 

"So I've been designing a layout in 3rd PlanIt using LGB sectional track. I am using mostly 1000 straights, 1100 (4ft radius R1) turns and mixing that with 1500 (R2 8ft radius) turns. I've also been putting straights in between turn segments to break them up. I have not more than 2 or 3 turn sections in a row before I throw in a straight." 

Don't do that.... 

This makes the cars and locos jerk through the turns worse than just a continuous turn of R1. 

If all your equipment is capable of R1, you may not have problems, but this is not smooth running for most cars and locos. 

I have seen it done, and visually, to me, it looks terrible. Every layout where I have convinced the owner to stop doing this has resulted in better operation. 

Now, having an easement into and out of a curve is good, i.e. straights>>R2>>R1 (in the middle of the curve), then back to R2 and back to straight. 

Look at a prototype railroad on how they do curves... they make it as smooth and wide as possible, and have easements in and out of the curve. 

I'm sure you are trying to maximize use of existing track. 

Regards, Greg


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Posted By kormsen on 24 Nov 2010 02:07 PM 
YES, DO IT! 

and if you feel up to it, go bend your sections as you need them. 

where ever possible i don't put a R1 curve directly behind or before a straight. if the curve begins and ends with a R2 it looks less sharp. 

here - http://supersol-chaco.net/korm/tracks/ - you can see some pics, how i lay my re-bent R1 curves. 

edit: putting some straights between the curve sections does not help you. the hardest (and optical less pleasing) points are the connections between curve and straight. that is the point, where the aixles have to realign themselves and work like brakes.
Korm... I went to your web page and still lafing on the videos you have on the bottom.. funny funny funny.. Like the three stooges running a loco.... hahahahaha..


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

noel, i had to put something in the pages, before i started to transfer my stuff from the forum. 
and now i just let them stay. 

but the best of them all is "the General" with Buster Keaton (full version), embedded on the main page. 

btw - if anybody finds som funny train stuff, i am always looking for new(old) videos.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Please note that LGB R1 is approx. 4 foot diameter and R2 is around 5 foot diameter. Train-Li R2 is 6 foot diameter. 
Original thread stated these as radius, but either way, the R2 had the wrong size (LGB 15000). 
LGB 16000 is approx. 8 foot diameter. (really 1200mm) 

I find that track alignment depends on what you are running. LGB engines are very forgiving on track work, and if the cars have metal wheels (read extra weight) they are forgiving also. 

It is the width of the track that is important and the guaging of the wheels. Plus how level you keep the track. 1/4 inch gaps do not affect my trains. 

All LGB will run on the R1 curves, but be careful of other vendors. 2 axle engines are OK, but items like RDC's and passenger cars do not like these sharp curves.


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## OBB_LGB (Nov 19, 2010)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Ah thanks to all. 

So, my update is that I settled on a basic track layout in 3rd PlanIt and then purchased all the necessary track. I eliminated almost all of the 1100 R1 turns, except where I have them in between two 1500 R2 turns (on either side). Even though I saw the 1100 turns as looking good enough for my mountainous layout, Greg's insistence on not using R1 turns is quite compelling! I'm going with the 1500 at least for the sake of a smoother ride. I'm sure it's worth it for the reasons I don't understand yet. 

To John, yes, I'm looking for something "In between" backwoods and smooth mainline. In this new revision, the track lines up even more closely, so I think it's going to be smooth, I'm just being very very careful that it's a reliable layout, a result of my background in HO gauge trains.

Just a note to Greg, I'm not making use of existing track. My existing parts, track or otherwise, are irrelevant to the bigger plan...even if it calls for more work or expense. I really want to take everyone's advice and do it right the first time! 

SO having said that, I'm waiting for all my track to come in from my various internet orders. I'll then assemble it according to the plan, see what sort of grade I can get, and then start to make 3D drawings. I don't understand how to use the 3D capabilities of 3rd PlanIt, but I happen to know 3DS Max, so I'll probably model the whole thing in there. Maybe I can get some awesome pre-visualization pics together? 

Thanks again guys 

Adam


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Great! 

One final bit of advice... after you have used your software to "fit" track into your space, challenge yourself to go "one size larger" in diameter/radius. My first design said I could only use about 8' diameter curves and #4 frog switches... I ended up with 10' diameter minimum, #6 switches, and mostly 14' diameter curves on the main line... 

It made a lot of difference, but I did a lot of "what if" stuff with the software I used, the RR-Track software... 

Have fun and post your ideas as you go... 

Regards, Greg


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## OBB_LGB (Nov 19, 2010)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Hi all, 

Wow it's been almost 3 years exactly! What a long strange journey it's been. I have quietly continued my effort to build this layout, through unforseen changes in alloted space and huge ups and downs in disposable income, but this weekend I just finished laying ballast and track and did a victory lap with the loco I bought 3 years ago. 

You guys were all so helpful that I had some "forum neglect guilt" every time I looked at the supplies I had bought. Anyway, I did follow with your advice and here's the play by play: 

2010 - Removed all inclines from original track plan. 

2011- The basement I was using was marked by "outside interests" as not train-worthy. Bummer! Indoor Alps layout goes out the window. 

2012 - Almost nothing happened for about a year. Was broke, got sick...but I fully recovered! 

Early 2013 - We built a garden bed in front of house for some simple landscaping, plants flowers, ect. 

Spring 2013 - Starting "seeing railroad tracks" in between the plants. It's a little tight, but figured it just might work. Finally convinced everyone that a train should happen. 

Spring 2013 - Without a real track plan, laid track to see if it was possible. Came up with a great layout that all connected nicely thanks to strategic use of the LGB expanding track. Mostly R2's had to use some R1 turns in one spot though. 

Summer 2013 - Purchased lot of brass track from ebay seller to add to my original layout. Track was filthy and corroded, rail joiners cracked, had to clean, used previous forum posts as a guide. Admittedly used 800 grit sandpaper before I finally found the post that told me not to...BUT it got the job done quickly and since its a relatively small amount of track I can replace if it degrades. 

August 2013 - The land is on a barely noticeable incline, so I ordered 2 yards of soil and evened out the land. Hard work, but really helped my core strength....too many hours at a desk job... 

September 2013 - Brought home 1/4 yard crusher fines for ballast. Bottomed out trunk of car. 

October 2013 - Land leveling complete. Added slate for edging to keep soil in place. Dug trench. 

November 2013 - Ballasting and track laying complete! Now I'm working out the dead spots, most likely due to those ancient cracked rail joiners. 

I just read the debate about clamps vs. joiners vs. soldering. I'll likely go with clamps on the trouble spots and replace rail joiners with new ones. 

So what I have now is a nice small OUTDOOR railway, hopefully I can give the illusion of a nice Alps-like mountain pass. That's all for now!


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

OBB, do you have any pictures?


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## OBB_LGB (Nov 19, 2010)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Sure, I only have one teaser close up...I haven't thought to photograph until I actually get it running smoothly.


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## OBB_LGB (Nov 19, 2010)

*RE: Multiple radius (radii) turns together in my Alps layout. How exact do I have to be?*

Hi all, I have made some progress and pics. Continuation is on this new thread: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aft/129797/Default.aspx


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