# Ladder road frustration



## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok fella's.... I'm about ready to pull my hair out and give up laying track!!!!! Ok maybe not that bad but close..... How do you guy who have used the ladder method get it to form to the curves??? I am trying to get the artifical decking cladding to stay curved while i connect the blocking for track support. Every time I get things connected the material wants return to straight and turns and twists the track..... HELP!!!!!


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

I screwed my blocks to one side of the ladder. Bent it around my pipes and clamped it. Then screwed the other side on, and then screwed it to my pipes.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 10/11/2008 5:58 PM
Scott,

I screwed my blocks to one side of the ladder. Bent it around my pipes and clamped it. Then screwed the other side on, and then screwed it to my pipes.






Ditto! I'll only add that I used the block attached stringer as the inside section for sharper curves (doesn't matter for wide curves). I attached the blocks with a single screw to allow it to move when curved. Then I used a single screw to attach the second stringer to the block. Hope that helps.


-Brian


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll go along with the crowd.

I put in the stakes and then bend the first stringer. 


Once that second stringer is screwed to the blocks, the curve will hold the shape VERY nicely.











You can end up with some great easements.

After the second stringer is screwed in place, I then adjust the elevation and make sure the track is level side to side. That's when I screw the stringers to the stakes.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce...you built a ladder bulding jig that I copied (thanks by the way...great idea)...but I can't find your post with the jig shown. It's saved me beaucoup time doing the initial assembly of the ladder. Can you post the photo of that for Scott?


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, I can do that! 









I just used a spare piece of 2 x 8 and put some stops against a 2x2 screwed to the board. The 2x2 spacers fit between these stops. Then, you place the stringer over these and screw them in place.












Two tools really help:
1 - a cordless hammer drill. This is a great tool for putting all those screws in place - and getting them out if necessary.

2 - a chop saw. Great for cutting all those spacers as well as the stringers.

I used hex-head deck screws to put everything together. No stripping.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well thanks guys but the stuff I'm using is about 1/4 inch thick and 4" wide X 12' long. I'm sinnking the whole works in the ground up to the top of the side boards. Basic plan goes like this, layout track, mark ground, move track, dig trench, set in ladder section, refill with dirt, pack the dirt down to about an inch from the top, fill the rest with ballast, re-lay track, pour more ballast on top and finally brush off extra ballast. This works great for straight sections but those darned cuvers are going to be the death of me.....

My ladder consists of the 1/4" X 4" X 12' cladding with 2" X 4" green treated spacer blocks about every 2'..... Track will fit in between the cladding sides and rests on the spacers which are the depth of the ties down from the top of the cladding sides.

I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow and post them so you can see what I have gotten done.....


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

I used 1x3 cedar screwed about every 8 inches or so like this. 










Then I used 3/4" styrofoam for my roadbed 










Then track 
You could use this and use temp stakes while screwing the joists to the stringers and your curves will stay. 








Rodney


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

Rodney, I had a few questions about your construction. What size PVC pipe are you using (it looks like 2 in)? How did you drill the holes in the ground for the pipe and what tool did you use? Did you fill around the pipes with concrete or just backfill the holes with dirt? Lastly, did you fill the pipes with concrete or some other material? Really looks solid and nice.

Thanks...Bret


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with the rest - When I built the ladder system the posts of 2" PVC were holding the first side of the roadbed then the other side without the spacers were installed. 

Maybe install some PVC posts every 2' in your trenchlay the roaded the same as up but above your grade. Then once you get the backside of the roadbed together you can unscrew the posts and remove them so you can put the now prebend sections in the ground. Another option may to be leave the posts in the ground and use them to keep your height in the trench. 

Hope that helps.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow Rodney, that looks good!


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott, it sounds like your stringers are too thin to hold the curves in place. The stuff I used was about 3/4" thick.


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Brent, 
Yes it's 2" PVC driven in the ground 15" to 18" with a sledge hammer. I bevel (sharpen) the end with a cheap B&D 3" belt 
sander mounted upside down on a piece of plywood. The PVC is very solid till you get higher than about 30" off the ground. 
For that I use a longer piece off wood down in the pipe and put 2 more screws in it. 
I have a tread started under WEER CREEK here in the track section. 

Rodney


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

You can use a bulb planter bit out of the garden section of a hardware store. Hook it to your drill and you can drill down 20-30" depending on your soil type. Or dig down some, then drill the rest. Works here in Nebraska, not much in the way of rocks, depends on your soil.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok Guys.. Thanks for all the input. Last question, where do you get the 3/4 inch stuff and what is the standard size.? Also, cost??? What about doing it at ground level? I'm planning on having it buried so the track is just at ground level.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Most of the big box stores carry the plastic trim pieces. If you have a table saw, you can rip down Trex deck planks to 3/4" width. Might look back a few weeks and Don(trains is his name here) did his whole backyard with plastic boards from one of the box stores. Jerry


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I' ve done it using trex 2x4 stock which I ripped down on a table saw. The nice thing about the trex is there's no waste--you rip off two side rails, cut some spacer blocks, and what's left is the posts. It breaks if you try for a tight curve though

I've also used "tuff board" from home depot. It's cheap and easy to work with. But you need to paint it and you need to use something for posts. I used PVC pipe


It is much much easier if you are using a track bender. Once I got a bender it was really really easy


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

I did mine with 1x2" plastic trim from Menard's, and Home Depot.








Been very happy with the way it came out.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By sbaxters4 on 10/12/2008 2:19 PM
Ok Guys.. Thanks for all the input. Last question, where do you get the 3/4 inch stuff and what is the standard size.? Also, cost??? What about doing it at ground level? I'm planning on having it buried so the track is just at ground level. 




I use Tufboard like Bruce does. I buy the 1"x6"x12' (3/4"x5.5") and rip it down into four strips about 3/4" x 1 3/8". That's enough for 24 feet of stringers. A 1x6x12' board runs $20 at the home depot so it works to about a buck a foot when you add in screws and the PT 2"x2" spacers. 
I only use 1 inch PVC supports as they have the same outside diameter as the 2"x2" spacers (1 1/2"). I have only used it for low level installation where the underneath is filled in so 1 inch pipe would probably not be sturdy enough for a table top level, non supported layout.

-Brian


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott, 

Go to Home Depot and ask for the Never Rot stuff. There you will find 1"x2"x8' pieces for the stringers and 2"x2"x8' you can cut into blocks for the spacers. We used PVC pipe for the supports every 2 feet, but I found the PVC fills with rain water and will freeze in the winter lifting the ladder bed up. You may want to drill holes in the PVC pipe or fill with cement or something... if you go that route anyway.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some pictures:


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

David, 
Your railroad looks great 
Glen


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## GarryNCGRR (Jan 18, 2008)

That really came out well, looks great. You've given me something to think about for phase three of my layout! 

Garry NCGRR


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I see all that nice grass being covered up. Looks great tho.


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## bruce a m (Jan 2, 2008)

Daivd Do you think if I would use 1" PVC pipe and put it 32" to 36" into the ground the freezeing in the winter will not lift the ladder roadbed ?


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## yardtrain (Feb 18, 2008)

David, 

How far in the ground are the PVC pipes. Also how did you get the PVC in the ground? Did you drill down, and if so how?

john


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work.


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

My experience with both 3/4 and 2 inch PVC pipe is that you need to keep water OUT of the pipes. Otherwise, water collects and saturates the ground at the bottom of the pipe. If you step on the roadbed after water has been sitting in the pipe for an extended peiod of time, the roadbed will sink. It may also "heave" due to freezing as some have suggested. I found that placing Alumininum tape (found in the heating ductwork section at Lowes or Home Depot) over the top of the pipe works great at keeping the water out and doesn't degrade with sunlight. I also found a 3" garden auger 24 inches long that works great for drilling the holes in dirt. After I drill the hole, I put the tube in the ground and then pound it down a few more inches to really get it set in firm undisturbed soil. This method has provided me with the most solid elevated roadbed so far.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

All,
Any opinions on how this method holds up over the long hall? Opinions of haveing to re level the track over time? I live in New Jersey and frost heave is a problem. Has anyone filled the PVC with concrete? Sorry for so many questions but I am on my third railroad and looking for a new and faster method to lay a sturdy road bed. 

Thanks
Glen
Lakewood NJ


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## RGSSJD (Jan 5, 2008)

Glen:

When I built my R.R. using the ladder method, I did add the ability to adjust the height of the track by making a piece that fit into the PVC conduit. It did pay off during the initial construction, I was able to fine tune the track work were there was changes in the grade. Over the past few seasons I have made some minor adjustments but not many. The photos below will show what I used.























All my uprights are installed to 30" in depth, all uprights over 18" in height are filled with concrete to make them rigged. Some of my uprights reach a height of 36", PVC conduit will bend fairly easy at this height, the concrete takes care of that problem. One bag of concrete goes a long way. On my roadbed I used 1" foam insulation so I don't have the problem with rain water filling the conduit. But, during the construction before the foam was installed I did. I drilled a small hole in the conduit at ground level to act as a drain. Hope this helps.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

Ken,
Thanks for the info. I like your method and will use this idea. I am setting up a somewhat temporary simple loop of track that I can build easily and quickly. Leaving out the landscaping this go around. I do have one question. Did you use a auger or post hole digger to set the PVC pipe? 
I would really like to visit your railroad. If this would be possible drop me a message outside the forum. 

Thanks for your help

Glen


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## RGSSJD (Jan 5, 2008)

Glen:

When I first started, I new I would be building this layout by myself. I installed one piece in the ground and it was far from being straight. I new at that point I needed to come up with something that would hold the pipe in place as I beat the pipe into the ground. I had everything I needed except for the $4.00 post leveler that I picked up at HD.

( This is the simple version)

Mount the holder over the point I wish to install the pipe and install four 12" spikes to anchor the holder in place. I level the holder and insert the pipe in the top, at this point I grab a 7 pound mall and beat the pipe into the ground.


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## RGSNH (Jan 13, 2008)

ken,
you must have very nice and deep topsoil down there in New Jersey. I cannot dig 3" in my back yard w/o hitting stones, and it gets worse the further down i go. i had to use a manual post hole shovel and lots of praying (read on my nees whith a small garden tools to get 18" deep. fot the fifteen or so pieces of pvc i planted. as i am on a contiuous 2-1/2 % grade, and with the addition of bridge 44A this summer i am planning on continuing with raiseed benchwork for the remainder of my outdoor railroad. (railroad will have termial at lizard head ). any more progress on bridges on your layout?


AL P.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

Al,
It is all sand down here in Jersey. It is like the beach goes all the way to the Delaware. It is great for building sand castles but is horrible if you wnat to plant anything other then a pine tree. 

Glen


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Tough, rocky clay soil here too. We prefer the power auger with a 2 inch bit - 










-Brian


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

The last 2 raised track builds I had to rent one of those post hole diggers (from home depot), usually get all the posts mounted in the ground in 1 day. I would let it dig down to a full 2 feet though.


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## RGSSJD (Jan 5, 2008)

Al:

My next bridge project is slated for this coming winter, my plan is to build RGS bridge 19a, but as a curved trestle.

Not all of New Jersey is sand, the soil that I have, allowed me to build my layout the way I did. My area does have a good layer of top soil with clay mixed in for good measure. After digging down a foot you hit a layer of gravel which has a lot of stone mixed in with the soil. The bad part is, when it's dry, it like concrete. So before I installed any PVC pipe in the ground I ran a water sprinkler in the area for two days.


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

Scott, 
I too put my ladder roadbed at ground level. I still used support posts in the trench, built the ladder roadbed, leveled then screwed to the support posts. Then filled to top of ladder with stone dust. 
This way the stone dust could settle but the roadbed would still be supported by the posts.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I must say a big thank you to all who have helped me out with this....  I have taken the advice and worked with it and now have two additional sections of track down both in a matter of about an hour each!! The 'never rot' stuff from Home Depot does work much easier than what I was doing and though it's not real cheap it is about the same price I would have paid for the stuff. Beside the fact it is easier to get it the shape I want it looks better when ballast is laid over it too.... I went from about 12' of ballasted track to closer to 40' and am now at the point where I will attach power to it and finally be able to run trains outside again. However with winter fast approaching I may not get much more done till spring returns.... I will try to get some photos posted soon. 
Thanks agian....


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Gents, 

In my area I can't seem to find Tufboard however Trex is available. I agree, trex can be worked however forming bends is a challenge. I was in Home Depot and found 1" x 1.5" x 8' PVC U-channels (edging) for plastic lattice. Bends beautifully to even shorter than a 4' diameter however is u-molded and would need a filler in that area where screwed I would say. This combined with 2" PVC pipe would do the trick as a compromise to Tufboard and Trex??? PVC pipe would be filled with high expansion foam to prevent water from getting in. Thoughts? 

gg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I used Trex that I ripped down to about 3/4" thickness and it curved okay, to an 8' radius.


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