# Baldwin "bottle green"?



## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Would anyone know what color "bottle green" would look like in reference to a Baldwin locomotive of the late 1800s?


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Jim, 



The color is an deep olive green, that is almost black. For models it needs to be lighter to show the green. Dave Fletcher is the one to help as to something close to the color itself.






British Racing green or Brunswick Green is a close match, don't forget that the color was almost certainly mixed by the foreman painters, from a dry pigment and oils so it could vary anyway!




 Here is a link to MMI re their 4 4 0 that shows their version of the color - which will be lighter to show on the web I think.






http://psc1.virtualfocus.com/MMI%20...-On30.html 



Accucraft also show a version on their soon to be released (I hope) 2 8 0's: the DSP version 'as in the 1880's has it as the base color, scroll down from the black & white view!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Peter, is "Bottle Green" the same as their standard "Olive Green?" It sounds similar from your description. 

Later, 

K


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Kevin,

First color is as you know a minefield of immense size!

Bottle green here in the UK has more of a very slight yellow cast to the color, BUT you do have blue cast green bottles!

The Baldwin Olive green (which was used till the end of Baldwin Loco Works) is a dark Olive green, which could be called a bottle green - Olive green has a slight earth cast to it, and importantly is quite a stable color. Baldwin's was dark olive so it has a small amount of black added I think. Add yellow(gold) & red lining and lettering and the color will look darker!

Both NGDU & the Rio Grande Historical Society have both had color plates of the color, in publications by them, which give an impression, color in models is equally another minefield. Baldwin dark olive would on a model look black, here in the UK it would be almost an 'invisible' green, that is in certain lights it would look green, thus, on a model, it needs to be lightened to show a green color.

Jim Wilkie, and John Davis did the plates in both the above publications, and they are acknowledged as being good, David Fletcher is putting together a book (on Australian Locos) that will have a lot of color plates and some will be of Baldwin green color. He also has had color plates in the Australian magazine NGDU (Narrow Gauge Downunder) of which I have copies. I know that he has had a lot of correspondence with Accucraft in China of what color for Baldwin Dark Olive green, which both the the D&RG & the DSP both used.

As I said at the beginning, the color, and importantly perception of color, both by the viewer eyes, and when dark colors are seen against a white/light background especially (they end up looking darker) and the size of painted models all affect its rendition. Add to that the state of the color - varnished/clean etc, and it changes, add the weather and it will change again! Think of a dull cloudy day, then a bright with sunshine day both will provide different color perception!

Finally a printed version can be different as well, if a dark undercoat is used the finished color will also darken - that is what occurs with the true lake colors, where they lake is really like ink - a color that is glass clear or transparent thus showing through the undercoat color. My favourite color is notorious for this - that is maroon or a better name is crimson, maroon has not got the clarity richness of crimson, I suspect the blue portion is reduced. 

I am surprised that there is no available pre-mixed (Baldwin Dark olive green) color available - I suspect that is down to its possible variations, which can be huge! Here is the UK we have our BR Brunswick green available, from several suppliers for what it is worth.

Finally here is a link to a color chart (from a UK Based website) showing both dark olive & Brunswick green - http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381%20Co...mp;pFinish= , I like the disclaimer!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks. When I think "bottle green," I think of green glass bottles--which if I'm interpreting correctly--isn't too far off the mark in terms of origin, but may in this case represent a different shade of green from the green Heineken bottle in my fridge. 









I use ModelFlex "Seaboard Air Lines Pullman Green" for my interpretation of what Baldwin's "olive green" would look like. As Peter suggests, its exact hue varies greatly on the lighting conditions (and in this case, color calibration of your monitor.) 

Later, 

K


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