# LGB Forney 21252 used, running issues



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Not exactly a newbie, but I am to diagnosis engine running issues. I recently acquired a No.2, LGB Forney steam engine (21252), with working sound, steam, etc. and it does run. It was used for many years in San Diego, California until this ole collector passed away. His son sold me the engine. So, here is the issue. Using track power and placing the engine on rollers, the power motor block moves somewhat slowly, even when cranked up to full power. I've opened the motor block housing and there appears to be plently of gear grease and nothing appears to be binding the equipment. I did find a few "carpet fibers" around one of the spring loaded contacts, but that has been removed. So, I'm not sure whether it is a matter of age and the motor is finally giving up or whether there is another issue. Suggestions?


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed... If you have the motor block open, try a drop of oil on the motor shaft bearing at each end of the motor. Just a small drop... That might be what's needed...

Or... The motor itself may be "tired". However, on a 21252, it should still be running..


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Might be a very high milage engine from the previous owners father. Very possible for the motor to be worn out. Barely moving or drawing high amps is a sure sign of a dying motor in an LGB engine. Mike


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Make sure that one axle is not meshed one gear tooth out. Usually they don't bind but will run slow with a slight limp kinda like I do. 

Andrew


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Is it DCC decoder fitted? Has the previous owner altered vMax or the speed table to reduce it's maximum speed to what they considered more realistic?


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Stan and others, thanks for the suggestions. I'm still fiddling with it. Barry Olsen also suggested that I talk with Dave Goodson in Seattle....he seems to have a vast knowledge of using sewing machine oil and lighter fluid to get at "sticky" issues. I haven't dissected this engine completely yet, but will see what happens as I do.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Plenty of grease is a statemnet I would question as LGB engines oonly need a small amount of grease, and just a tiny drop of oil on the axles.
For some reason the grease in the gear box will get in the motor and cause a winding/commutator to burn/short to another winding (I have seen this many times) and then the motor will draw a lot of current thus overloading the power pack and running slow.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I have worn out one or both worm gear sets and one will slip causing poor running. This is an old engine from the 90's can I get parts for it still?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB Forney takes the same gears and motor as the stainz and parts are available.
motor is short shaft 62201. Axle gears can be white, grey or black and are stocked items at Trainli.
Gears can be removed from the axle but one needs to make sure the axle is properly aligned when placed back in the motor block and many call this quartering as the alignment of wheels on an axle have a 90 degree offset which is a quarter turn (1/4 of a circle) and both axles must have the side rod mount at the same position (I set one side to 6 o'clock and verify the opposite side to either 3 or 9 o'clock for all wheels.).


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

simple experiment
flush the motor with either lighter fluid or denatured alcohol
this flushes carbon and oil
blow dry with computer air

oil shaft ends, see if this makes any difference. sometimes carbon dust from the brushes gets mixed with oil against the commutator 

the flush is harmless. i have submerged motors in denatured alcohol.

worth a try...
more likely....worn motor


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## tailsgunner (Nov 18, 2015)

stevedenver said:


> simple experiment
> flush the motor with either lighter fluid or denatured alcohol
> this flushes carbon and oil
> blow dry with computer air
> ...


On most DC motor, you can run the motor with battery and dip the entire motor in a bath of denatured alcohol and water...while the motor in the bath, it common for the water to turn dark from all the elements in the motor can. The entire motor will get cleaned out. While the motor is running take it out and shake the water out...the alcohol will help the drying process.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

A word of caution regarding Denatured Alcohol.
I know from work experience that DA can dissolve shellac.
I don't know if it is still true, but motor windings used to be shellac coated. 

So don't soak the motor and blow it out quickly.
Denatured Alcohol is a poison, don't touch it and don't breathe the fumes.
John


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## tailsgunner (Nov 18, 2015)

Totalwrecker said:


> A word of caution regarding Denatured Alcohol.
> I know from work experience that DA can dissolve shellac.
> I don't know if it is still true, but motor windings used to be shellac coated.
> 
> ...


 Hello John, 

I agree...you only use like 1 part DA to 5-8 parts water. You can use water only if you like. 

We did this many years ago for RC car racing. For new motors, it helped to break in the brushes. For older motor, it cleaned them up pretty good. Only dip the motor for 20-30 seconds. For us, we can actually hear the motor speed up after 10 seconds on some motors. You need to do this at a high RPM, almost at full power.

Of course common sense needs to be applied whenever one is working with water and electricity and then adding a solvent bring another dimension
of caution.

Thank you for that reminder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Quality motors use enamel on the windings. Alcohol won't affect them, although no reason to soak for a long time...


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

FlagstaffLGB said:


> So, here is the issue. Using track power and placing the engine on rollers, the power motor block moves somewhat slowly, even when cranked up to full power. [...] Suggestions?


FlagstaffLGB, these Forneys always move slowly. They have a voltage regulator reducing the voltage that goes to the motor. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have several LGB forneys and none are 'slow'. Mine are the older (before 2000) models.

LGB engines run slow due to quartering issues, bad motor, and if decoders, improper cv settings.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dan Pierce said:


> I have several LGB forneys and none are 'slow'. Mine are the older (before 2000) models.
> 
> LGB engines run slow due to quartering issues, bad motor, and if decoders, improper cv settings.


Dan, place 20251 and 21252 (or 20252) on the same track and apply 10V. See if they run equally fast. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS once the motorblock has been opened, quartering could indeed have been affected (this is easily corrected). LGB filled the motorblocs with grease of high quality, this should not be removed. Bad motors happen, but rarely. On 21252 there is no decoder. It is an old (but very pretty) Queen Mary Series product, pre-2000, fourth Forney produced if I remember right.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, I never assume an engine is still original from the factory and LGB did add decoders for some customers. The only marking on the engine bottom would be a MZS sticker and these do fall off.
I do repairs and have found many bad motors, half are locked up (do not turn) and other motors have worn bearings ( shafts have side play and chew up the side of the plastic gears) or draw too much current. I replace several a month and I only do repairs 1 day a week.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

as one who has done the denatured alcohol procedure on several lgb locos, all older stainzs, there is no issue with motor damage. avoid gettting it on black plastic as it can leave a white residue, which will wipe off

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## trainmaster1 (Jan 14, 2016)

*21252 forney*

I have a 21252 forney that runs on rollers but only moves 3 to 4 inches on track. I find nothing binds and I can run the engine up side down touching leads to the wheels or the pads. why will it not run on the track?


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i have 3 german and 3 Chinese forneys.
some possibly relevant observations, relevant or not, to slow or not running

first, it is a subtle thing, but, on particularly the Chinese made versions, which are lighter and di run more efficiently or faster, the pick up plungers on the bunker truck may have tiny lips, which keep the brush from hitting the wheel. the wheel is so close to the plunger that one must look carefully to determine if there is actually contact. fix this with a few strokes of a fien jewelrs file all around the inside of the brush cylinder-I am able to do this without removing the brush , as there is enough play to get the file to work even with the brush in place.

ditto the drivers brush and plunger cylinders sometimes.

second, the thing I would do, if I had a Forney which was acting up, would be to drop the motor block, and carefully and thoroughly clean, suing dish detergent, warm water and a soft toothbrush, then dry, clean wheel backs and tread areas too, examine, relube, check gears, with a loop or some magnifiying help, and as mentioned brushes and ease of spring ,and contact with wheel, etc. the next would be to exchange a new motor.

in my experience these locos are superb, german or Chinese (the latter being more prone to damage due to styrene used) .

otoh, if it was run relentlessly, it might be 'worn out'. aside from gears, a not often conspicuous thing can be wear at the axel points in the motor block, ie they go elliptical and the symptom can be slippage, despite otherwise apparently good gears. (I had this on a used 2076 and after replacing all the **** parts, and motor, I finally found out why the thing continued to slip. 

slow.....again id bet motor. bite the bullet and buy one.


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## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

stevedenver said:


> .again id bet motor. bite the bullet and buy one.


http://www.trainli.com/bprolineb-motor-62201-short-shaft-p-253.html

For those curious, if indeed a regular Buehler-style short shaft, here's Train-Li's Proline new production replacement. Ended up getting one for my 1983 Stainz a year or two ago when the original started dying... Think the brushes were worn out from hundreds of forward miles.

Cost is definitely worth it, brings your locomotives right back to life - Assuming the motor is the issue.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason the newer engines are lighter is the requirement for no lead to be used for weights in engines as many people were throwing these in the trash thus causing a pollution problem.
Engines have more metal but less weight as lead is no longer used. And this new metal is very hard.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The new metal is normally Zinc, although Aristo was using pieces of mild steel in their last locos manufactured.


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## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

*LGB 21252 Motor Issue*



FlagstaffLGB said:


> Not exactly a newbie, but I am to diagnosis engine running issues. I recently acquired a No.2, LGB Forney steam engine (21252), with working sound, steam, etc. and it does run. It was used for many years in San Diego, California until this ole collector passed away. His son sold me the engine. So, here is the issue. Using track power and placing the engine on rollers, the power motor block moves somewhat slowly, even when cranked up to full power. I've opened the motor block housing and there appears to be plently of gear grease and nothing appears to be binding the equipment. I did find a few "carpet fibers" around one of the spring loaded contacts, but that has been removed. So, I'm not sure whether it is a matter of age and the motor is finally giving up or whether there is another issue. Suggestions?


Hi - Came across this old posting and curious about the solution which I didn't find in the postings. Seems like a replacement motor was warranted.......how did you fix it?

Also, do you have the original LGB Owner's Manual for your loco.........If so I need one for an LGB 21252 that I'm selling and wondered if I could get a PDF copy that I'd pay you for?
Thanks
Tom


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom......... Try this link... It's a parts manual... 

https://www.onlytrains.com/manuals/21252-1.pdf 

and a manual for a 23252

https://www.onlytrains.com/manuals/23252.pdf


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## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

*LGB 21252 Owner's Instructions*



Stan Cedarleaf said:


> Tom......... Try this link... It's a parts manual...
> 
> https://www.onlytrains.com/manuals/21252-1.pdf
> 
> ...


No LGB 21252 Sound locomotive Owner's Manual available there but I did download the one for the LGB 23252 Forney Columbus Sound locomotive.........if I can't obtain one for the 21252 I'll provide my buyer with the 23252........the operating controls are the same for the sound system, etc.
Thanks!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I found that adding pick-ups to the front truck allowed mine to run on track it otherwise didn't like. LiG


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## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

Nick Jr said:


> I found that adding pick-ups to the front truck allowed mine to run on track it otherwise didn't like. LiG


Nick - Wow.........there are four electrical pickup points on each side on these LGB Forney locomotives: The two driving wheels, plus the shoe sliders, plus the rear truck's second axle.

If you had to add that fifth electronic pick up point on the leading wheels for the loco to operate properly, perhaps one of shoe sliders or the rear truck's wheels was not working (shorted). One loco I was refurbishing actually had a broken carbon brush on one driving wheel which certainly affected the loco's operation. Did you confirm all four electrical pickup points on each side were all working properly.........I use a pair of small alligator clips on a long cable from my DC power pack to test each pickup point independently?

Tom


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB333$$$, having worked in electronics for many years, 'shorted' means that both poles were touching, which would cause the circuit breaker in the power supply to trip, or worse burn a wire. You mean 'open' as no conductivity from the wheel or pick up. 
I removed the sliders as I didn't like the way they looked or dragged over the switch points and the drive wheels have no suspension so if the track was even a bit irregular at least one wheel would lift and loose the connection. Two sets of floating wheels have a better chance of keeping contact with the rail and have better pick up, which in the case of my loco, it does. LiG


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## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

*LGB Forney Track Connectivity Issues*



Nick Jr said:


> LGB333$$$, having worked in electronics for many years, 'shorted' means that both poles were touching, which would cause the circuit breaker in the power supply to trip, or worse burn a wire. You mean 'open' as no conductivity from the wheel or pick up.
> I removed the sliders as I didn't like the way they looked or dragged over the switch points and the drive wheels have no suspension so if the track was even a bit irregular at least one wheel would lift and loose the connection. Two sets of floating wheels have a better chance of keeping contact with the rail and have better pick up, which in the case of my loco, it does. LiG


Hi Nick - Appreciate your technical explanation of a "short" which I fully concur with. I use the term short as a generic term with my LGB locomotive customers when there's an electrical connectivity issue. I'd probably get blank stares if I said there's an "open" connectivity issue. In fact, I just usually say there appears to be an electrical connectivity issue.

Since you removed your LGB Forney's electrical pickup slider shoes, adding electrical pickups to the pilot wheels certainly makes sense in order to retain four electrical connectivity pickup points on each side. Most LGB Forney locomotives, however, don't have pilot wheels which is in keeping with the original Forney design by the American steam locomotive designer and builder, Matthias Forney (1835 - 1908). 

Occasionally I'll have an LGB locomotive's electical pickup shoes cause a short traversing over certain LGB track switch frogs, but have fixed it by bending up the pickup shoes at an angle that then doesn't touch the opposite polarity track.

Thanks for sharing your experience.......that's how we all keep learning about the hobby.
Tom


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, that's why I like the forums, as you said sharing experiences and learning. Keep enjoying. Life is Good


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