# LLagas Creek or Sunset Valley code 250 aluminum



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'll be putting in about a thousand feet of track and 30+ switches so I want to do it right the first time as this won't be cheap.

The problem I've come into is that Sunset Valley (SSVR) has had a very good reputation for their code 250 aluminum. However they don't offer aluminum switches and I wonder if the stainless ones will just look out of place next to aluminum rail. Second is that SSVR doesn't offer some switches I'd need, mainly 10' and 12' diameter as well as multi-radius and 3 way. Their switches go from a size 6.5' diameter to 15' with nothing in the middle. I have a number of SD45's and -9's and will be getting a big-boy, k-27 and some other locos one day and I worry using either 6.5' would cause problems in the areas I can't fit a 15' diameter switch. Also SSVR doesn't offer multi-radius or three way switches which I'd need in a few places.


Llagas Creek is another option but they seem to be used less often than SSVR and I'm not sure why, is it because of some issues with some 3 truck and bigger locos, if it's the ties that are harder to assemble, if it's mainly used for 1:20.3 and other scales other than 1:29 and 1:32 which SSVR seems to have a bigger market on? I just don't know. For my railway one thing I'm concerned about too is that the switches will probably get changed every minute or less (I'm doing a fully automated railroad with rfid and software I'm writing that will run 3-8 locos on 2 mainless at once so there will be a lot of traffic and switching to sidings) and I worry aluminum won't hold up for 30-50 years that I'll still hopefully be around for. I'm also planning on using pneumatics for switching which could be too much for aluminum over time as well. Though Llagas Creek provides 10', 12', all the multi radius and three way switches I'd ever need and this is a huge plus I think based on my layout design I have right now.


I'd love to just go SS 250 but that doubles the cost, $3k more, ouch. I had thought about even building the Llagas creek switches from their kits to save about half the cost of the switches which is another $3k which is substantial.

I've read posts about people having problems with big-boy on Llagas switches as well and I'd hate to spend this much money and not have it work for me. 


Could someone offer advice on all this that could help me figure out which path to go? I'll be buying some track and switches from both but that doesn't help me with figuring out long-term reliability as well as design issues with SSVR with their limited switches. 


I really couldn't afford the time or cost to have to redo anything 20 years later because pneumatics ruined aluminum switches or end up having to replace sections of track with ties that failed and then wouldn't match because it's not made anymore (which could annoy me visually)

I've also tought maybe I just give up code 250 but I really like the look of it. I have yet to hear about anyone doing pneumatics with code 250 in any metal. 


Thanks so much guys.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately I can't really comment specifically on Llagas creek aluminum track, but we do use Llagas Creek track exclusively on our layout.

We use Llagas Creek code 250 nickel silver rail on their "narrow gauge" ties. 


Aluminum rail is definitely more affordable then nickel silver but it is less forgiving if stepped on by animals or if a tree limb falls on it. Since we are literally a few feet from a national forest, we went with nickel silver for the strength against animal (mostly Elk) trampling and falling tree limbs, as well as the electrical conductivity. Although we now run mostly battery powered locos, our track still carries power for switch stand lighting. So the rail has to be a good conductor with little to no rail cleaning.



We've been very happy with our Llagas Creek track. It has been outside at our place in Colorado (elevation of 8200 feet) for almost 12 years now. And it still looks great. I've only had to replace a few sections that an elk decided to stomp on. The ties got popped off but the rail was salvageable in a rail bender. We bring in the switches during the winter months to avoid elk damage and ice damage. SplitJaw rail clamps make it so easy to remove sections of track. We use stainless steel rail clamps.



You can save some money on Llagas track if you buy the build it yourself track. However I'd really only recommended the non assembled track for extra replacement track and for sections that you plan to bend. Although the track is sort of flexible, if you want nice smooth curves you have to use a rail bender. Putting the plastic ties on unassembled track is a little tricky. So if you need straight sections definitely go with factory assembled track to save you some time.


Our track has held up well under heavy locomotives. We have two heavy brass steam engines (a K-28 by Aster/LGB, and a K-36 by KISS). They run fine over our Llagas switches without any problems. I've never run anything larger then the K-36 on the layout so I can't really comment on a Big Boy.


If you would like to see our Llagas Creek track, take a look at the following links:

Youtube cabride video of our layout

Photos of our layout


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## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

Brandon, 
I use Sunset Valley rail on my RR and I like it, I haven't used their tie strips or switches though. 
I have heard reports that the Llagas Creek is harder to assemble, as the rail fits tightly against the spikes, you can make a jig to help assembly or buy it ready assembled as Matt says. 
Sunset Valley do a range of air operated switch drive equipment. 
I have heard lots of people use SVRR and Llagas and are pleased with their quality. I don't know about the Llagas switches having problems with Big-Boys. 
Stick with code 250, aluminum should hold up well provided it is well supported. If strength is an issue maybe look into code 250 brass, sold by SVRR and Accucraft. 

Alec


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I have yet to hear about anyone doing pneumatics with code 250 in any metal. 

I've had SV 250 SS track since 2009. I have a dozen of their #6 SS switches and I used a dozen Aristo "wide radius" switches in the yard I added this summer. And I added SV's pneumatics to run them all. The pneumatics work well with all the switches and mount easily on both brands. 

I do like the looks of 250 over the larger 320 so I certainly recommend them. I also added one of LLagas Creek's curved turnouts (it's almost a yard long!!), also in SS. The only problem is you need an adapter rail clamp to join SV to LC. I got them from Split Jaw. 

I probably won't be around thrity years from now, but I expect my layout will. 

JackM 

Are you planning to use battery power? Aluminum isn't recommended for track power (DC, DCC, etc.). That might make the decision for you.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Fully battery. I'm not concerned about track being trampled. it will be on the ground but in flower beds. The yard is fully fenced and there is a 25' dog but I can't imagine him hurting the track. I know some track might get accidentally stepped on a times but as you mentioned, railbenders can often fix the problem and if not I'll keep some spare track around. 

Glad to hear you're using pneumatics on LLagas. I wonder how aluminum would work over the years. SVR won't do aluminum switches because they think the software aluminum wouldn't hold up which makes sense, I don't know if SVR did tests in house with aluminum or are just going by common sense. I guess that's why I wonder how Llagas Creek aluminum switches hold up. 

Here's a picture of my current railway to show where I'm really stuck on 10' and 12' switches. The main issue is the Y at the dogleg corner and going in/out of the train shed. 




Here's a post about Llagas and gauging issues on switches: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...aft/6955/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#15872


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon,

At this moment, I am building a new layout, part of the layout is on about 40 feet of bridges of various types (therefore elevated) and the remainder is on the ground. There is about 250 feet on the ground. My track is exclusively Sunset Valley code 250 aluminum. I chose Sunset Valley because of the ease of installing the ties. Llagas ties were a PITA to install, IMHO. I run all-battery-Airwire/Phoenix sound. I use Sunset Valley stainless steel turnouts.

The two photos below, were taken on Russ Rutalj's (MLS member) as we were laying Sunset Valley track. You can see the slightly different color of the stainless turnout and the aluminum code 250 next to it.



















This a #6 NG turnout. I would never purchase any turnouts other SV. They are built on fixtures and I can't tell the difference one from the other. Precision made-a beautiful product, IMHO.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon,
SVRR nickel silver turnouts would probably work just fine. I'm a little confused about diameter and radius though. You mention 6.5' diameter and then talk about getting a Big Boy. Did you mean radius. Even with that the Big Boy won't work. I use both brass and nickel silver SVRR turnouts with aluminum rail. I paint all my rail before installing. After some time out in the weather it will all blend in.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

What matches aluminum closer, NS or SS? The difference in the picture above would bother me I think... I've though about painting though after time the paint will wear off where the wheels rub so does painting help after 5-10 years or do you have to repaint often? 


I was thinking the minimum for some big-boys where around 10'-12' which now after checking I realize is wrong (except for the USAT which does 8'). 

SVR two smallest switches are a #4 (40" radius aka 6.5') and a #6 (90" radius aka 15'). Most of my track is based on minimums of 10' and 12' where switches were involved. I can change some of these to #6 switches but there are some sections where #6 is too wide. I'm worried if I use #4 switches my sd45's, -9's and the 20-50+ car trains I want to run will be problematic with a #4 switch as a 6.5' diameter is tough on a SD-45/-9 motor block as well as it doesn't look as good as a 6' radius curve. 

Llagas #4 switch is however based on a 48" radius (rather than 40") and they also have a #5 switch that is a 6' radius. Those two switches would be perfect for many areas and that's a gap in available switches from SVR. I wonder if it it's possible to 'adjust' and of SVR's switches to tighten up a #6 or lossen a #4, but I'm guessing that's a bad path to go down.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

My oldest painted aluminum rail has been down for almost seven years and still looks fine. Personally, I would not put down any track without painting first just becasue it looks so much better.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I sell both Sunset Valley and Llagas Creek; they are both very good products. My own railway is all Llagas Creek NS and #8 NS switches because I bought the rail and ties before SVR was in operation. I run both an Aster live steam Big Boy and Aster Daylight plus other smaller engines with no problems what so ever. If you really are talking about 1000ft of track and 30 plus switches then shop for the price. Llagas Creek can supply any switch configuration you can come up with, curved, 3 way or whatever. The fellow who makes the switches is one of the best in the business, Tom King is his name. You can buy LC assemble or unassembled, it's easy to assemble, all you do is heat up the ties a little with a hair drier or heat gun and the rail slides on the ties.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I've got both code 250 and 215 aluminum from LC. I can't really comment on the flex track or ties because I've handlayed everything (something to consider as it saves $ but it takes time). I've also have used LC frog and point castings for turnouts and find them to work just fine. Dave Goodson has had his LC aluminum rail outdoors for ~20 years? with weekly operating sessions with no problems that I know of. 
If you paint the rail before installing, normal use shouldn't wear the outside web of the rail. The head and inside web will get polished clean with use (much like the real thing). 
LC makes both standard gauge and narrow gauge tie strips. 
Before deciding order a sample piece of track from SV and LC. Then you can see for your self. And while your at it get a sample of the SS from SV. 
Another way to save $ is to have LC send you turnout kits. They spike everything to the correct gauge and all you have to do is put ties on. Or make your own turnouts is even cheaper. LC castings make it really really easy to build your own turnouts. No filing of rail at all. 

Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

SVRR rail will also fit the tie strip from Accucraft.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree Paul, on the ties.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Interesting, and a box of 48 pcs 1' tie strips from Accucraft are less than half the cost of anyone elses tie strips but the problem is accucraft only carries a #6 and #8 RH/LH switches so they don't help a whole lot when it comes to keeping track similar.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

My only gripe with the Llagas Creek ties (at least their 1:20 ties) is that they're a VERY tight fit on the rails. If you're going to go that route, get the pre-assembled track and save yourself a TON of grief. I laid 600' of Llagas track on my railroad back in upstate NY. The aluminum rail held up very well, but I literally had to string the the ties on the track two at a time. Needless to say, I went a different route on my next railroad. (Accucraft's brass code 250.) 

As for SV's stainless switches blending in with aluminum rail, I don't think you'll notice the difference after more than a season once things get a coat of dust on them. There's a slight color difference, but not too much. If you paint the rails, then you'll never notice. 

Later, 

K


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been using SVRR turnouts and rails (mostly SS and a little NS) and Accucraft tie strips. The SVRR tie strips are very good, but I like the appearance of the Accucraft better. The rails assemble into the tie strips quite easily. My friend, Larry Green, uses LC aluminum exclusively and it is an excellent product. I've learned from his experience that inserting the rails into the tie strips is much more difficult because of a tighter fit. Both brands offer great products and it really comes down to personal choice.

Llyn


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 20 Jan 2012 09:35 AM 
My only gripe with the Llagas Creek ties (at least their 1:20 ties) is that they're a VERY tight fit on the rails. If you're going to go that route, get the pre-assembled track and save yourself a TON of grief. I laid 600' of Llagas track on my railroad back in upstate NY. The aluminum rail held up very well, but I literally had to string the ties on the track two at a time. Needless to say, I went a different route on my next railroad. (Accucraft's brass code 250.) 

As for SV's stainless switches blending in with aluminum rail, I don't think you'll notice the difference after more than a season once things get a coat of dust on them. There's a slight color difference, but not too much. If you paint the rails, then you'll never notice. 

Later, 

K When I was first trying to decide on which rail to use (Llagas Creek or Sunset Valley), I bought samples of each with their appropriate ties (BOTH NG ties). The Llagas Creek were definitely tighter and more difficult to "slip" on without either a heat lamp or a ton of WD40! Like Kevin says, "Two at a time". Sunset Valley literally slips on! If you are looking for a wider look in narrow gauge ties, then go for the Accucraft ties and they literally slip on the SV rail as well.


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## sandbarn (Feb 13, 2010)

Brandon,


I'm surprised no one has suggested SwitchCrafters switches ( switchcrafters.com ). They make the widest selection of switches in aluminum and nickel silver I've seen from any manufacture. And they are very reasonably priced as well (i.e. $78 - aluminum #6 and $90 - nickel silver #6 vs Llagas Creek at $110 and $133 respectively).


I have several of their #6 and #4 switches and have found that Llagas Creek narrow gauge code 250 aluminum matches the profile of the SwitchCrafter aluminum switches better than the Sunset Valley aluminum 250 rail. That makes it much easier to attach joiners or clamps to the switches.


The comments above about putting the tie strips on Llagas Creek rail vs. Sunset Valley are correct. The Llagas Creek tie strips are very tight on the rail and very difficult to get on and off. However, when you order Llagas Creek flex track it comes with the tie strips on the rail (Sunset Valley you get two boxes, one with rail and another with tie strips).


Good luck building your Empire.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Switch crafters does have nice switches and I could always do SVR with LC or Switch Crafter switches but I'd like the ties to all be the same, which is why I'm trying to decide which way to do. Now if everyone used the same ties that would be perfect but it doesn't happen. 

I think about 70% of my track is curves, probably 50' or so long sweeping curves in several places so doesn't the rail need to be removed from the ties to bend, even with dual track benders? Also people recommend staggering joints, especially on curves which would require undoing the ties as well? 

I have about 200' of code 332 aml aluminum track that I've stepped on over a hundred times now and had no problems and I had a thought. Which would be stronger, code 332 aluminum or code 250 stainless steel? I haven't seen code 332 stainless selling for under $10 a foot and code 250 stainless is about $6. Maybe a good "in between" solution is code 250 SS, although that doubles the cost of track over aluminum (and switches if I weren't to get LC's aluminum switches in kit form) but SVR would be my only choice at that point since they're the only ones who do code 250 SS. I think the only thing SS really offers over aluminum for battery and live steam guys would be less joint expansion. I haven't heard of anyone saying their aluminum rail wore out over the years.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to remember that llagas creek track has a 5mm base, and the SV has a wider base I think 7mm? 

Craig


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Base? As in the foot or the rail?


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## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

Yes, the base is the foot of the rail 

Alec


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Craig 

Llagas Creek Railways code 215 AND code 250 BASE 5.0mm 

Micro Engineering code 250 BASE 5.5mm 

Sunset Valley and Accucraft code 250 BASE 6.0mm


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, 
That's what I was trying to point out. Thanks for posting that info. The width of the base is slightly different, and therefore could create minor problems when trying to use different brands of ties/rails/tieplates. My personal opinion is to stick with one width base and work with that instead of trying to mix and match different manufacturers. 

Craig


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've got samples coming from both. Both seem like good companies. I'm torn, I really am. I did hear that aluminum needs to be attached to something, especially on curves as it's more flexible. If that's the case I may have to go with SS as frost heave where I live (Utah) apparently makes floating track the only reasonably reliable way to lay track. Also the idea of getting LC kits for about half the price isn't going to work as I didn't real close enough to realize it didn't really come with ties at all so I would in fact have to get the full switch so there's no cost savings there since aluminum switches are the same cost as SS. Biggest thing now will be deciding if SS pro's are really worth an extra $3k over aluminum.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon, I don't know where you are in Utah but you have two fellows there with aluminum rail that has been down for years. One is in Salt Lake and the other is now in Midway but was in Park City, he had track in PC and has track in MW. Jim Hadden is one and Howard Freed is the other fellow. They can let you know what you want to know about track laying in Utah.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I did hear that aluminum needs to be attached to something, especially on curves as it's more flexible. 
Not in my experience. My track in upstate NY just floated, and I didn't have any issues. A little new ballast every Spring, level things off, and you're good to go for the season. Again, that was 600' of Llagas code 250 aluminum. I can't think of any reason to go with $tainless $teel if you're not going to be running electric. I would recommend a Train-Li dual-rail railbender, though. They're well worth the price. Truth be told, I didn't pre-bend my rail in upstate NY, and it did just fine, but I wouldn't build a railroad without one today. (The ties were so tight on the rails they probably would have held 2' radius curves in place!) Certainly if you go with Sunset Valley or other track that fits a bit looser in the ties, go ahead and bend the track as you go. That's the beauty of the dual-rail railbender, though. You can bend as you lay it, and pretty much bend it in situ. 

Later, 

K


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Ooooh, *"... in situ."* Good term!!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Kevin 

I think it depends on the weight of your equipment, particularly locomotives. If you have electric locos or small steamers that weigh less than 10 pounds I don't think your floating aluminum will move much. Put a 45 pound USAT Big Boy or a large live steam locomotive moving along at a good clip through a curve and I believe the desire for the heavy object to continue in a straight line will move the lightweight track around. Something about Newton's fundamental Laws of Motion.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 27 Jan 2012 03:27 PM 
Kevin 

I think it depends on the weight of your equipment, particularly locomotives. If you have electric locos or small steamers that weigh less than 10 pounds I don't think your floating aluminum will move much. Put a 45 pound USAT Big Boy or a large live steam locomotive moving along at a good clip through a curve and I believe the desire for the heavy object to continue in a straight line will move the lightweight track around. Something about Newton's fundamental Laws of Motion. 

I would agree with you Jim, but in Utah where the temp variance is from below freezing to above 100 degrees aluminum rail will expand so much as to push the curves out of the ballast or kink the straignt sections if you use rail clamps at every joint. And that is Brandon's plan. Your railroad Jim is fastened to a deck so it is entirely different. If electrical conductivity is not an issue I would recommend using rail joiners where ever possible to allow the track to expand and contract and I would also fasten it to some type of sub roadbed to hold it in place. I personally use the pvc roadbed, but there are a multitude of options there. If you want to avoid the expansion characteristics of aluminum and have plenty of money then I would go with nickel silver track and use a Train-Li rail bender. NS is about double the cost of aluminum. I have used aluminum in an on the ground application here in Houston successfully, but I use rail joiners and the sub-roadbed to hold it in place. I use split jaw rail clamps on curves and on at least one end of a switch so I can remove it for maintenance when necessary. Otherwise I use rail joiners. I am completely live steam and battery. One option I recommended to Brandon was to use nickel silver for his mainline and aluminum for the sidings and yards. My railroad is 100% Llagas Creek track.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

How does NS compare to SS? SS appears to be the same cost as NS, but isn't it a better metal all the way around? Even when considering expansion. Maybe slightly more resistance but I won't be doing track power.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I use LC code 250 aluminum rail, and LC #6 switches throughout my rather small layout. It is track powered. I've clamped it together with Hillman clamps. The track is 6 foot sections. It is free floating except at the joints, where I've screwed the track ties to 6" by 6" trex blocks buried about half way into the soil. I then build up the space between the blocks with ballast, levelling the whole thing as I went. 

I've used SV and LC ties with this rail. SV ties go together quickly, and just as quickly the rail jumps out of the ties (as noted, LC rail has a narrower foot than SV. Then you get to do it over again, with LC ties. I have used SV ties (which don't look as good with the plastic bar in mid tie) indoors where there's no expansion/contraction, and I can screw the ties to the plywood base every foot or so. 

I even bought an LC curved switch, which is a beauty! I've build LC switch kits, and also bought factory built ones. On my kits, I cut redwood fence boards to a scale width and length, but left them fence board deep. When ballasted, the switch doesn't move and is very solid. 

To minimize the effect of expansion/contraction, you might not use dead-straight sections, but rather put gentle curves in the line. Then the expansion will push sideways rather than along the length of the rail. 

P.S Good to see you're still running trains John!


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 27 Jan 2012 05:54 PM 
P.S Good to see you're still running trains John! 

Hey Richard. It's the greatest hobby there is. Are you going to Chicago this year? My railroad is a little beat up from the two torrential rain storms we have had in the last two weeks. And I was at Diamondhead last week. But I will have it back in shape pretty quick. I also recommended to Brandon that he consider #6 switches or larger throughout and no curve less than 6' radius and no reverse curves with less than 24" of straight in between the curves. Just trying to get him off on the right foot as much as possible.

We have a railroader here in Houston that went exclusively with nickel silver LC track and used the Train-Li railbender. He is all steam and his railroad works great. He used #6's and 10' radius curves. I really liked that rail bender. It is the best I have ever worked with. Out at our club track at Zube Park we are going to #8 switches as money becomes available. We found out some Aster engines don't like #6's. Out there we had to use code 332 aluminum(for cost reasons) with mostly rail joiners, but some clamps where necessary and at the switches. But it is an elevated layout. We also have railroads here that use Aristo brass track and ties. It seems to hold up ok in the heat here.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Last night I pulled out the track sample and some locos/cars to decide which SVRR ties I liked most (LC ties/rail still haven't arrived). None seemed liike 1:29 and sure enough after checking their site I verified the ties were 1:32, 1:22.3 and 1:20. I have about 30 1:29 scale locos and 150 1:29 scale cars, a couple dozen 1:24 scale bachmann passenger cars and will get a K-27 or Challenger once the track is up. 

I checked LC and noticed that on LC switches, they only use plastic ties for 1:20 and 1:22.5 and wood ties for 1:32. If LC doesn't make switches that match their ties I think that might rule LC out for me as I don't want the track to looked peiced together... 

So when reading up on ties specs, one strange thing I found out about SVRR is that their 1:32 ties actually match 1:29 better except for the length of the tie which is about 5/16" shorter. 

Has anyone done ballasting of SVRR or LC and can comment on if they found one tie vs another better for holding position/level, ballast in place, and handling long trains or loads? Is bigger better to make life easier at the expense of scale? I called my wife in for her thoughts and she liked the narrow gauge/larger ties for 1:20.3 and she thought the 1:32 looked wrong, wimpy, and not right (she knows nothing about trains so it's interesting to get her thoughts.) 

PS. Even though I haven't made up my mind, I'm thinking if I do go SVRR I would do SS. I like the idea of saving a few thousand dollars but having switches not match as well as more expansion problems with aluminum makes me think that I should lean towards SS and pick up the bonus of strength since I'll be doing code 250 rather than 332 and then have an option for people to use track power who visit. 

PSS I tried to find contact information for Jim on the site but haven't been able to, anyone know his handle? I'm in the SL area as well.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

To add to my questions above, has anyone ballasted SVR ties? Is it hard to keep ballast over the center spacing plastic?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 01 Feb 2012 08:08 PM 
To add to my questions above, has anyone ballasted SVR ties? Is it hard to keep ballast over the center spacing plastic? 
Brandon,

This is a shot of MLS member Russ Rutalj's elevated layout using Sunset Vally code 250 aluminum track with narrow gauge ties (with the center spline. He used #5 crusher fines for his ballast. Can't see the spline, can you? This has been in place for a year.









By the way, that's a SV #6 stainless steel turnout with SV switch stand.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The Llagas Creek track sample hadn't shown up yet but out of the blue I got a call from them checking if it had. They were really kind and are re-sending another sample Monday. They're also sending a switch which I'm really excited to see as I'm curious how the construction is and how the ties match the track. I'm also awaiting hearing back from some locals who have LC and I might be able to visit their layouts in person to see how it's held up. 

I did redo the layout again based on SVR switches. I removes some switches near the train station due to not being able to do what I need/wanted with #6 switches (LC do make switches that would make it possible to do my previous layout though). I am concerned though about three areas. The Y near the corner of the house and both levels of the train shed. I tried to leave 18" between switches for cars to 'recenter' themselves but I couldn't do that everywhere, especially in the train sheds. It will be nice to see a LC switch and see how smooth my SD45's go through something like a #6 with quick bends before/after it. 

(Rather than repost the same pictures I'll just link to my build thread with the images) 

Build Thread


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

So here's my thoughts/review of LLagas and SVR. It's going to be mainly broad with some details left out on purpose because if those details are that important I would recommend you get samples of both and do your own comparisons. What follows are my opinions and will be different than anyone else so just consider this random words by someone with an opinion on everything that doesn't need rebuttal.  

Short review: You can't go wrong with either. 

Long review: But... each do have a few quirks to them but nothing that would affect my recommendation of either. 

Accuracy/Scale: 
The ties are actually closer to 1/32 for everything except tie width and spacing. LC has more ties per foot. LC's ties are also sharp on their edges and can scratch wood tables (oops) though they never drew blood (but can poke a you a bit). LC rail fit in the ties is VERY tight, quite difficult to slide on and off so, yes, buying pre-built ties/track would be my recommendation. Putting about 10lbs of spreading pressure on the LC ties gauged the gauge to go from 1.789-1.803 and SVR track went from 1.767-1.93 (+/- .013" depending on either depending on where in the track I measured). 

To me, the finer wood grain in the LC ties looked more realistic to me as did the fact that the ties aren't all the same width (about 1/8" variance). The SVR ties were a slightly lighter brown with no variance (other than a different grain) from tie to tie and they were a bit more glossy (I've been told this tones down with the help of mother nature from another SVR track owner). 

Rail: 
LC is 5mm and SVR is 6mm. Since code 250 closest resembles 150lb rail (which wasn't used much except a few heavily used mainline and for PRR mainline) the head, web, and base are still a little oversized for true scale but it's not bad. Because of this 5mm rail head is slightly more to scale however it's pretty easy to justify 6mm head (1/29 scale value) as some places used it (very, very rarely) which comes about to 7". But even though LC rail head is closer to scale, SVR head/web/foot ratio is actually more to scale. At these differences, the fact that 1/29 cheats all over for "scale" simply make the differences nearly useless facts. 


Switches: 
The thing that surprised me was the fact that both use solid ties and secure the rail to the ties the same way (A few ties are an exception though). The biggest difference, SVR has a delrin/insulated frog on =#8) and SVR uses nickle silver. To handle frog isolation LC for about $5 adds rail insulators around the frog and a pretty creative method of passing power. I have to admit LC's method is pretty simple and very good with the exception is if you track gets dirty you might lose connectivity as the the web of the traveling rail touches the outside rail to pass power to the traveling rail and frog. I have to get them an A+ on this design for design. SVR uses an isolated frog made of delrin which is a pretty strong (?plastic?) and considering it's used for heavy live-steam and I have yet to see a complaint about wear I'd consider it not a problem. SVR goes a few extra steps to keep connectivity to the traveling rail by having brass contacts below the sliding rail and that also are soldered to the outside rails to pass power to the traveling rails. You in fact have 8 points of contact to the traveling rail as well as soldered connections to the inside rails that are connected to the traveling rail AND not only is there a fish clip to act as a hing (as both LC and SVR do) but SVR also solders a wire around the fish clamp. Maybe it's overboard, maybe it's experience but I can't see how you could ever have bad connectivity to the traveling rails on an SVR switch (and I think LC would be fine to but I'm just in awe at how far SVR went). 

Some interesting side effects of SVR is you get some nice rust (or rust like) coloring on the side of the switch: 
 

The SS on SVR also seems to be a bit aged/weathered. I'm not sure if this is how SS always looks when made (I'm not a metal expert) or if my 3 SVR switches are older or something but my guess is this is the nature of SS as using my multimeter to check for resistance I could never find anything out of "ideal" readings you'd want. I also had no connectivity problems with the LC either. 

The tracking rails on the LC were about 1/16 wide of a gap than the SVR but I don't think that's a problem -- maybe if you were pulling some very heavy cars with 5 or so VERY light weight cars between the heavies and the loco and the switch did an S bend after might you see a problem but that's not a likely scenario. Trying to force a USA low boy car (I've liked these for testing) trucks to go the other way is practically impossible on LC and maybe a touch even less likely than that on the SVR (I think mainly due to LC having 1/16" wider gap. 

Both LC and SVR switches weren't perfect in rail heights matching from one rail to another inside the switch. Nothing big, maybe 1/64 or 1/128" so that you can feel it but nothing the car or loco would notice but they were both more variant than I was expecting but well within industry range. 

I didn't get any throw arms with the SVR's as I'll be doing pneumatic but LC sent some throw arms for me to look at. My thoughts? Love them, seriously. The switch arms move easily and lay flat so they stay in position (including if you turn the switch upside down, the switch arm is perfectly fit so it friction stays like a champ). The positioning/accuracy of the stopping both directions was dead on. I really can't say how impressive they are and I know a few guys in the local club who've been cursing aristo switches left and right because without fail one of their steamers is always tracing onto a siding when it shouldn't be and they are going to go nuts when I show them these at the next club meeting. LC also has a plastic switch arm that is springed (unlike this other arm) but I'm a fan of the none-spring ones. 

LC switches are all made after you buy so I think (and I could be wrong) that you might find some variance in rail length so you might find drop in replacements require some adjustment (but I could be wrong, I'm going by what LC has told me). The 2 RH switches I got from SVR were identical, including down to the fact that on the curved rail side they both had a rail that was 1/4" too long so connecting a piece of sectional track wouldn't work. I'm not sure if someone cut a bunch of pieces for that part of the rail a little long or what but it was interesting to see this quirk. 

For the connection between the traveling rail and rail it's connected to via a fishplate, LC seemed to have a "smoother" transition whereas SVR cuts the traveling rail at about a 15 degree angle to help it "fit" but I think a 5 degree cut would have actually made this better but we're talking about very picky details but I'm posting all my thoughts so I'm mentioning this. I don't think it could or would ever affect performance in any way but it was an interesting thing to note. 

SVR's guard rails/tracking rails appear to be slightly longer, maybe a 1/2" as well as a steeper angle than the LC as well as the SVR traveling rails move more than I'd think would be needed. An SVR owner said he redrills one of the traveling rails placement hole to reduce that but it's not really needed that I can see. Maybe with live steam people run into tracking or other issues with and having this wider mouth helps but I don't know if it's needed or not, just an observation. 

For connectors, LC only sells fishplates but the code 250 SS clamps I got from SVR worked on the LC and Split Jaw makes clamps for both (5mm and 6mm code 250) so that's a mute point. 

So which do I like better? I like them both and would pick different ones based on what I end up doing. I think overall LC looks more hand crafted and SVR looks more uniform. I think old steam would look slightly more photo realistic on LC but I really like the look of SVR switches for that custom look too. If I go with SVR they don't make aluminum switches so I'd go all stainless which costs more. If I go with LC I'll save a lot but my hands might hurt more. Either way they're both 95% of what I'd want and just for comparison, aristo is about 60% and aml is about 80% of "meets my needs" when you comparing everything including looks, cost, reliability, engineering, and QA. Having 5% left to be desired just leaves me a little to 'tinker' with to make it work for me which is close enough for me. 


If anyone wants additional details or measurements just let me know and I'll post or reply in PM. 


Here are some random photos I took.

Below is the #6 SVR switch with a delrin frog. 


Below is a LC #6 Y with a nickle silver (cast) frog. (That's AML code 332 aluminum rail on the far left that was sitting on my desk) Another thing to note is that the ties on the LC are not as consistent in placing which gives a more custom look. This switch is also a narrow gauge switch/ties vs the others that are mainline specs. 


Another shot of the #6 y from LC, really nothing different except this one is out of focus a little. 


LC #6 Y again below, showing close up of traveling rail and their amazing ground throw switch... 


Below is the LC switch, upside down showing the connection. I really like how LC connects the arm to the traveling rails. The SVR has a bit of slop and LC is just solid. SVR also has screws on top that of course aren't scale in any way and LC looks more "realistic" from above since they don't have screws at all. 


Bolow are both switches side by side, note the LC is a Y and the SVR is a RH switch. Also please ignore the tap that's attached to one of the LC ties, it's not there for any real reason at all except it's a piece of tape stuck to a tie.


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