# DCC Options?



## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I have been exploring the idea of converting to DCC for some time now and have been asking many questions but I think I have been asking the wrong questions.

Living out here in Eastern Canada I do not have the luxury of a Large Scale store, so I need some help from your experiences to guide me too the right system.

I have the following Engines
Backmann K27 with QSI sound Decoder installed
Backman Big Hauler with QSI sound Decoder installedLGB Porter with nothing in it at the moment (plan on installing QSI)

I currently run them with an MRC 10amp I have two dog bone loops connected together through a siding and control two engines running at the same time through one controller so I am unable to control the speed of each engine individually.Next summer I want to have DCC controlling it all

What systems are available?
In your opinion what is the best cost effective system that will work well with what I have?
What should I stay away from?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, there are inexpensive systems, and in my opinion, they have limitations that always cause frustration later. 

This is because there's so much you can do with DCC, it seems that you always run into a brick wall when you buy one of the inexpensive systems that have some limitations, like amount of power, or number of throttles, or capability to execute all DCC commands, etc. 

I recommend the NCE system most of the time. There are systems with even more bells and whistles, like the Massoth, ESU, Zimo, but they are a lot more expensive, and in my mind, less suited for outdoor use (color screens that cannot be seen as well in the sunlight, extra features that require only one brand of decoder). 

"Below" NCE is Digitrax (again in my opinion) because of the much poorer user interface, and lack of a 10 amp system. 

Beneath that, are more like "starter" systems, that are cheaper, but have limitations. 

You can look around and get a complete NCE wireless system any day for $650, and looking harder, you can find it on sale for $600 or $550. You add a regulated power supply for about $70. 

It seems like a lot, but I've tried them all and keep coming back to NCE. 

That's my recommendation, but of course there's many "right" answers. 

You might want to read my web site on the subject. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I have given NCE a great deal of thought but I need to know if it will work with the QSI decoder or will I have to purchase a decoder on top of the QSI one? 
I do have a 27vdc 10amp power supply already.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

NCE will work flawlessly with the QSI decoders. I use the NCE 10 amp system with eight qsi decoders and they work just fine.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Lownote, are you talking the NCE garden wire? (I think you are), but for people who don't know there are different ones, might want to make sure they know the difference. I use my Garden Wire from NCE all the time and the T-9000 from Airwire too on QSI/


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Count me in as another fan of NCE. 

I used to have a Digitrax Super Chief radio system and have recently switched back to NCE Power Pro. The only reason I switched to Digitrax in the first place was that NCE's radio technology was in its early stages with reported range problems and only supported one receiver. Those problems have now been eliminated. I also consider NCE to be more user-friendly starting with just powering up the system. On Digitrax, I would turn on my power supply, then I had to key in a sequence to turn on the track power. With NCE, I flip on the power supply and the system is ready to go. I also prefer the buttons on the NCE cab to the Digitrax ones. The Digitrax buttons are skinny compared to their height so they feel like they are bending over when I press them. It is also easier for me to find the button I want on the NCE cab. 

I do not have a QSI equipped loco to test with my system but I am near 100% certain that they are fully compatible with the probable exception of needing a programming track booster or the QSI computer programmer. It is common for a sound decoder to need more power than is available on the program track of a DCC system. DCC Specialties and Soundtraxx both offer program track boosters for around $50. I have the Soundtraxx one but I haven't used it yet because my Soundtraxx equipped loco came from the installer already set to the 4-digit address. I was able to make all the other changes I wanted by using the Ops mode programming (Programming on the Main). HO QSI locos I used to own also responded well to Ops mode programming so I'm pretty sure that will be the case in large scale as well. 

I do not have experience with with other DCC systems but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth on NCE and Digitrax. Both are excellent systems but I prefer NCE. 

-Scott


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I have Digitrax and it works fine. I went with Digitrax because when I first got into DCC everyone near me had Digitrax for their HO layouts. I use the 8amp system DCS200. I would prefer the 10amps of the NCE. If I was just starting out from scratch I would probably go with NCE but not because of the turning on sequence. Digitrax can be set up to turn track power on when the power supply is turned on or you can have it wait until you push the "power" and "+" keys to turn on track power. Not a big thing either way. They are both good systems. I don't know of anyone unhappy with either one.
Bob


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I meant the NCE straight DCC system--I went to conventional, over the rails DCC a couple years ago. 

One of the advantages of DCC is the uniform standard. I've been running trains with NCE decoders, Digitrax decoders, QSI and Lenz decoders. They each do exactly what they are supposed to do. You can program the QSI decoders on the mainline (speed curve, momentum, acceleration, consisting, etc.) using the NCE system. But if you want to change the sounds, you need to have the QSI hardware interface and software.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I would recommend you get some hands-on experience with the various hand held controllers. So while NCE is relatively inexpensive, the hand controller was an absolute non-starter for me. I much prefer a rotary dial and the feel of the Massoth Navigator, which is what I chose to go with--it just seems much more intuitive than the roller wheel or buttons. As far as cost goes, when you spread it over a long period it becomes less important and that's why I would make sure to try the various systems before you buy. The Massoth Navigator has backlit keys and screen that you can adjust, which is great both day and night, and the new Zimo system is by far the most sophisticated with a touch screen. But again you try them to them to see what you are most comfortable with, as there are strong feelings in all camps.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

NavyTech:First, I want to second Cougar Rock's recommendation. Whichever system you end buying, you will likely have to live with it for quite a while. It is thus best to have hands -experience. 
You should consider at least these factors when deciding what to buy: (1) does the system have the capacity to meet my current and future requirements ( 1-3 amps for each LGB locomotive, I do not know anything about locomotives and decoders from other manufacturers, (2) what functions do I want to control (lights, sound, smoke, switching, shuttle, reverse loops etc...)(3) what functions and features should the controller be able to handle, and how many controllers can be connected at the same time (4) do I want programmed functions and routes (5) do I want radio control, (5) is the system expandible (booters, bus adapters, bus converters) (5) is it fully compatible with the standard track protocol (NMRA) (6) are there accessories that will allow me to communicate with other bus protocols, (7) is the system upgradable (8) do I want to use the system to control my layout using a computer?


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Getting hands on experience is not an option for me as there are not many in the hobby out here in Nova Scotia and the people who are using DC only. There is no Hobby Store that carries G Scale and the only system there is a small HO Digitrax controller. 

I am taking as much input from everyone here to help me make a decision and then I will have to order it online.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Navy teck: since hands-on isn't an option, deciding on system capacity is a porobably a good starting point and based on the information you have provided, you would most likely be comfortable with a system that can handle somewhere between 6 and 8 amps; there are a few of them around: nce, digitrax, massoth, etc.. Try google searching these brands and see what you can learn about each one of them.


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Another thing you can do is check the DCC manufacturers web sites and see if you can download the manuals for the systems. They can give you an idea what it would be like to operate the systems and what features they have. I know both NCE and Digitrax have manuals online as pdf downloads. I expect most of the other manufacturers do too. 

-Scott


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 25 Sep 2011 08:42 PM 
I would recommend you get some hands-on experience with the various hand held controllers. 

I agree with Keith here - I find how comfortable one is with the hand-held controller is *the* key factor in how satisfied one will be with the system as a whole.

All the points Mohammed mentioned are of course items to consider and I think pretty much all DCC systems other than the rock-bottom priced ones will provide those capabilities, but to me the controller is "key"

If you can't try any out before you buy, then the best bet would be to a. study the manuals and try to visualize what operation with a particular controller would be like as has already been suggested, and b. pick a system that can handle a number of different types of controllers; where you are not restricted to just one type.

People who are not that familiar with electronics or don't want to tinker with them usually buy a product where they can get local support - either from a store or otherwise.

That might be a consideration as well.

I always liked the Lenz system which doesn't come up often as a recommendation - not quite sure why not.
I think with it one has the broadest range of compatible controllers including a number from other companies and price-wise it seems to hit the 'sweet spot'

However, I haven't looked at Lenz lately to see what the latest and greatest is and in which areas they may be lacking.


Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: based upon what I have been able to gather about the lenz system, it is still inexpensive compared to others, but it is also the senior citizen in the bunch when it comes to technological prowess.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

The Lenz 10 amp system is a great value for corded indoor control and computer operation in my opinion. I believe new US distributor/repair station has changed to Tony Trains. 

But I switched to NCE because I didn't care for the Lenz XPA phone wireless system. You can add other wireless controllers (Massoth & CVP) but they are expensive and lose original Lenz set value and limited function wise. 

Found my NCE 10 wireless set for $550 and pleased so far. Make sure you have NCE tune it up to 22 Volts on track for G scale. Don't bother with 5 amp set. 

Remember that you have strong NCE support from Greg E and Yahoo group as well. 

Good Luck, Alan


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

navy Tech: you asked "what is the best cost effective system that will .....". I personally believe that initial cost is a very poor indicator of cost effectiveness; what do your get for you money is a much better indicator of cost effectiveness. The old atage "you get what you pay for" really applies in DCC.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 26 Sep 2011 12:13 PM 
I personally believe that initial cost is a very poor indicator of cost effectiveness; what do your get for you money is a much better indicator of cost effectiveness. The old atage "you get what you pay for" really applies in DCC 
Well yes - up to a point.

And I'm not picking on Massoth here, so let me make that perfectly clear right up front.

But some DCC systems try to justify their price by listing all these extra features they have - well to me the extra features are worthless unless I'm actually going to use them.

Gets back to what people always suggest when the question re "Which DCC System" comes up but I don't think it's listed in this thread yet - make a list of DCC capabilities that you need now and in the future; easy future upgradability is always good.


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By adelmo on 26 Sep 2011 11:10 AM 
The Lenz 10 amp system is a great value for corded indoor control and computer operation in my opinion. I believe new US distributor/repair station has changed to Tony Trains. 

But I switched to NCE because I didn't care for the Lenz XPA phone wireless system. You can add other wireless controllers (Massoth & CVP) but they are expensive and lose original Lenz set value and limited function wise.

The iphone or ipod touch sound like an interesting wireless controller option for use with the Lenz system.
Not quite ready yet but it sure looks sexy.

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/iPhoneControl.html


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 26 Sep 2011 12:24 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 26 Sep 2011 12:13 PM 
I personally believe that initial cost is a very poor indicator of cost effectiveness; what do your get for you money is a much better indicator of cost effectiveness. The old atage "you get what you pay for" really applies in DCC 
Well yes - up to a point.

And I'm not picking on Massoth here, so let me make that perfectly clear right up front.

But some DCC systems try to justify their price by listing all these extra features they have - well to me the extra features are worthless unless I'm actually going to use them.

Gets back to what people always suggest when the question re "Which DCC System" comes up but I don't think it's listed in this thread yet - make a list of DCC capabilities that you need now and in the future; easy future upgradability is always good.


Knut 



It is exactly my point, features that are worthlesws to you, may be essentials to others. Secondly, I am not quite sure what picking on Massoth has to do my point.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Sorry Mohammed, I obviously misunderstood; 
when you posted: 
. ....what do your get for you money is a much better indicator of cost effectiveness 

sounds to me as if you're saying some systems are priced higher simply because they provide more of something - power, features, whatever. 
My point was that this is fine as long as one wants and needs these additional capabilities, I didn't think that was your point at all - want and need didn't enter into your comment but if that is what you meant then we are in total agreement. 

As to my comment about Massoth - well that goes back to many other posts here on mls when it comes to DCC, no point rehashing that. 

Knut


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Do I have to put NCE decoders in all my engines or will it work with QSI?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Do I have to put NCE decoders in all my engines or will it work with QSI? 

No--the beauty of DCC is that you can run any make decoder with any of the systems. I think NCE is one company that can't generate serial pulse output for some older LGB decoders, but it doesn't sound like an issue for you unless you have friends over with them. I'm also not sure NCE can run an analog train at the same time as other digital locos the way Massoth and Zimo can either. Greg should be able to chime in, though, since he runs NCE and QSI and works for them doing Beta testing. 

Keith


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Your QSI decoders will work with any DCC system. 
Bob


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

ANY dcc complaint decoder will work with any DCC system. That's the beauty of DCC. I've got decoders from 4 manufacturers running on my little road: they all work just as they are supposed to. YEs, yes, absolutely, no doubt. QQSI decoders will work with the NCE system. I have eight QSI decoders running on my NCE systen right now. The same is true of Masoth, or Zimo, or Digitrax. Indididual systems might have features you prefer, but the DCC protocols are standardized so any decoder works with any system


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Your QSI will work with track power, and or battery R/C at least mine do sometimes on my test track I'll switch from battery to track and use my transformer. The T-9000 and or the NCE garden wire throttles take over and away we go on track power. Outside on the layout battery/RC Regal


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 26 Sep 2011 03:10 PM 
Do I have to put NCE decoders in all my engines or will it work with QSI?

No--the beauty of DCC is that you can run any make decoder with any of the systems. I think NCE is one company that can't generate serial pulse output for some older LGB decoders, but it doesn't sound like an issue for you unless you have friends over with them. I'm also not sure NCE can run an analog train at the same time as other digital locos the way Massoth and Zimo can either. Greg should be able to chime in, though, since he runs NCE and QSI and works for them doing Beta testing. 

Keith Can anyone comment on the two issues raised by Keith: (1) NEC can not accomodate a loco without a decoder in it (like Navy tech's LGB), (2) NEC can not accomodate a loco with a decoder that requires a serial pulse like the many LGB decoder equiped locomotives manufactured prior to 2004. If this were the case, NEC would not be a good choice for any one with mostly LGB locomotives.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 07:04 AM Can anyone comment on the two issues raised by Keith: (1) NEC can not accomodate a loco without a decoder in it (like Navy tech's LGB), (2) NEC can not accomodate a loco with a decoder that requires a serial pulse like the many LGB decoder equiped locomotives manufactured prior to 2004. If this were the case, NEC would not be a good choice for any one with mostly LGB locomotives.



As I understand it 
1) NCE systems haven't supported running an unchipped loco for many years - I think there was an early version which did? 
2) For locos which require serial pulses you need to return the loco to Massoth for update (if possible), or use one of the Massoth or Zimo decoders which can receive the usual NMRA function commands and output the serial pulse train for the original LGB electronics. From what I've read, even using these decoders there are still sometimes minor issues getting the correct serial functions to trigger. 
Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed... while some of your statements are true, you are focusing on things that are very "small" in the terms of DCC.... Only the really old stuff from LGB uses serial pulses for functions, and YES, you can push the F1 button 6 times to make F6. 

And, the "zero-stretching" trick to run a single analog loco on a DCC layout is not very popular since DCC has become so inexpensive. I'm curious though how you can run an analog loco in zero stretching AND other DCC locos. Keith how do they do this? NCE used to have the analog loco option, but dropped it because: 1. It really does not work very well, and 2. no one wanted it any more. 

Jason, I've had all these systems at my home, or have tested them for a extended time at a show. So far, I have not found a decoder that my NCE will not program. ANYTHING you buy now, current manufacture, will work with ANY system. (there are some decoders with extended features that might take a special programmer, like sound files) 

I don't want to get to a slam bang competition on "who's best", and I have avoided big negatives I have found on some of the really expensive systems. 

The best recommendation is to try to use some of the systems yourself. You can try out the Digitrax and NCE at some local club, probably HO, but that should be pretty simple to locate. 

The other systems, well, maybe Mohammed will send you one to try out, and pay the shipping to you. I know that Axel at Train-Li (for the Zimo system) has made that offer (and I have taken him up on it). 

How about it Mohammed, are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? That seems like a great way to prove how good "your" system is, and allows Jason to try it risk free. 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By ntpntpntp on 27 Sep 2011 07:53 AM 
Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 07:04 AM Can anyone comment on the two issues raised by Keith: (1) NEC can not accomodate a loco without a decoder in it (like Navy tech's LGB), (2) NEC can not accomodate a loco with a decoder that requires a serial pulse like the many LGB decoder equiped locomotives manufactured prior to 2004. If this were the case, NEC would not be a good choice for any one with mostly LGB locomotives.



As I understand it 
1) NCE systems haven't supported running an unchipped loco for many years - I think there was an early version which did? 
2) For locos which require serial pulses you need to return the loco to Massoth for update (if possible), or use one of the Massoth or Zimo decoders which can receive the usual NMRA function commands and output the serial pulse train for the original LGB electronics. From what I've read, even using these decoders there are still sometimes minor issues getting the correct serial functions to trigger. 
Nick Hello Nick:

Having to send a decoder to Germany for updates is not without cost, replacing the decoders is not without cost either. Updates and replacements can cost anywhere between 70 dollars for updates to 275+ dollars per locomotive for decoder replacement. Why would anyone want to do this when the original decoders would work perfectly well with either Massoth or Zimo DCc. Hence, the NEC approach would be, without a doubt, the least cost effective approach for a mostly LGB owner. 

The same could be said about LGB locomotives without a decoder in them, particularly older locomotive that are difficult to convert to DCC. I know many people that have 15+ year-old LGB locomotives and that prefer to keep as is, and still be able to use them on their DCC track. They would be unable to use them on an NEC system controlled track. For these people, NEC is not even a viable option.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Jason: 99.99% of the decoders made today are NMRA compliant and as such they can be controlled with a central station whose track protocol is NMRA compliant. All currently available central stations are NMRA compliant. All devices that get their instructions via the track such switch as decoder, reverse loop module, braking module, shuttles, etc are NMRA complaint as well, you can use them across systems. 

Devices that communicate via the bus such as rc controller, feedback and detection modules, CAB controllers, etc. are a different story. Bus procotols are manufacturers specific, yet some manufacturers now offer converters that allow bus devices from other manufacturers to communicate with their bus. a CAB controller for manufacturer A can thus operate locomotives on manufacture B' DCC trak if a conveter is available. Many European DCC systems are now offering these kind of converter.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Thank You Greg for your input. My main concern was having to purchase all new decoders. I have a power supply that puts out 27vdc at 10amp and after reading the NCE manual I notice that I need to drop the voltage below 21vdc. This will not be an issue just a lot more work. 

I am not looking for the cheapest system but rather a system that require less replacement of hardware. I will be purchasing over the winter months and I hope that I can get a good deal on one. 

I am thinking that the NCE-PH-PRO-R 10 AMP is what I will be looking for as long as I will not need to add a Gwire to control the sound.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, well, you are in luck. Turns out that the NCE will handle the 27 volts DC input just fine. The AC max input voltage is lower, but the DC is 27 volts.It's in one of the manuals, but hard to find. 

The booster drops about 3 volts, so the max output could be as high as 24 v DCC to the rails, but most NCE systems have a maximum output of about 21.3 volts. There is an adjustment in the unit that allows you to set the output voltage. I detail this adjustment on my web site.

I have this written up extensively, since I run some trains at higher speeds and I wanted more than 21 v to the rails. (My E8's would not go over 65 smph).

So what you have will work perfectly. You should have no need of anything over 21 volts to the rails. By the way, NMRA compliant decoders should handle up to 27v, and the QSI will handle 37, so no limitations or dangers there. 

What you are looking at will work very well together. I have the same MRC as you and have powered the system from it and no problems.


Here is a page on my setup, and in the section "How to make it better" I describe some of the "voltage" stuff:
*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...-implement*

I have an entire section on NCE:
*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-30* 


and there are several submenus "below" that one that show you some tips, modifications, and shortcuts. Be sure to browse those.


Besides the quality and ease of use, and the fact that it was one of the top 2 systems used at clubs, was that there is a very good Yahoo forum on NCE with several real experts that basically know everything, and those guys have web sites of their own with more tips, techniques, and they are very helpful on the forums, to newbies and experts alike.

Again, I receive no compensation from NCE, and have done no beta testing for them. I just made a decision that has been good for me for many years. Will I change in the future? Maybe, who knows, but for now, I'm a happy camper with my price/performance choice.

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

And, the "zero-stretching" trick to run a single analog loco on a DCC layout is not very popular since DCC has become so inexpensive. I'm curious though how you can run an analog loco in zero stretching AND other DCC locos. Keith how do they do this? NCE used to have the analog loco option, but dropped it because: 1. It really does not work very well, and 2. no one wanted it any more. 

Greg, I don't know how they do it, but the analog loco is assigned address zero, and it actually works very well. Maybe NCE used a different methodology that didn't work well, but I use that feature regularly with my LGB MTSIII central station, both for analog guest locos and when we want to have air car races with my sons running theirs with decoders, and mine without. Yes decoders are now inexpensive but for analog guest locos it sure is nice to have the feature. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 27 Sep 2011 08:52 AM 
And, the "zero-stretching" trick to run a single analog loco on a DCC layout is not very popular since DCC has become so inexpensive. *I'm curious though how you can run an analog loco in zero stretching AND other DCC locos. Keith how do they do this?* NCE used to have the analog loco option, but dropped it because: 1. It really does not work very well, and 2. no one wanted it any more.

Greg -

Don't really understand why you think it might be difficult running one standard analogue loco in 'zero-stretching' mode and the rest of the locos with DCC decoders at the same time.

In the early days of DCC this was a big selling feature.
Technically there are two downsides doing that - one is that the motor of the analogue loco is powered by a relatively low frequency pulse signal which for core-less motors can be deadly; OK for LGB Buewhler motors although they will get warmer doing that compared to DC or high frequency PWM.
The other is that the number of DCC messages that can be sent in any time period is drastically reduxed because of the long DCC zero pulses. But that is only an issue if one runs a lot of locos at the same time which isn't usually the case in Large Scale - it's an issue for H0 and N scale club operation with many trains.

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

keith: are you refering to the propeller driven cars, when you say "air car races"?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

keith: are you refering to the propeller driven cars, when you say "air car races"? 

That's right Mohammed. We have my homemade Snoopy, then two of the LGB propeller cars too--they are a blast to race around with. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By ntpntpntp on 27 Sep 2011 07:53 AM 
2) For locos which require serial pulses you need to return the loco to Massoth for update (if possible),
No longer possible.
At least last time I checked with Massoth they told me that they no longer offer this service.

But Mohammed would be more up to date on this - it's expensive in any case.

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 27 Sep 2011 10:10 AM 
keith: are you refering to the propeller driven cars, when you say "air car races"?

That's right Mohammed. We have my homemade Snoopy, then two of the LGB propeller cars too--they are a blast to race around with. 

Keith 
Keith: I love those things, I have 3 Mars one that I bought on ebay for a song and my grandchildren and I race them all the time. they are definetly a blast, but they have also tought my grandchildren how to really control a throttle.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: They do offer the service, for US customers the cost is about $70.00. I do not think it is neccesary for people with a Massoth system. With a Massoth system you can press function key 5 and the system with pulse 5 times for you. There is, however, a lag time between pressing the key and getting a response, the lag time is proportional to the numerical value of the function key.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 10:40 AM 
Knut: They do offer the service, for US customers the cost is about $70.00.



Mohammed - 

Are we talking about the same thing?
Spending $70.- to upgrade an old LGB decoder hardly makes any sense.


Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 27 Sep 2011 12:13 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 10:40 AM 
Knut: They do offer the service, for US customers the cost is about $70.00.



Mohammed - 

Are we talking about the same thing?
Spending $70.- to upgrade an old LGB decoder hardly makes any sense.


Knut 


knut: we are not talking exactly about the same thing. Some older LGB locomotives were equipped with digital sound board that required a serial pulse when used with MTS. Replacing these sound boards with new sound decoders would cost significantly more that the $70.00 update charge. These digital sound board are what LGB onwers are concerned about when they talk about updates.

You are right when you say spending $70.00 to upgrade an old LGB decoder hardly makes any sense as long as the decoder is a light, function and motion decoder, no so when sound is involved. Futhermore many of the sound boards where quite impressive; the original blue krocodil and the orient express mallet are well known examples.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

The LGB is not an issue as I plan on installing a QSI in it, so it makes do difference to me. Even though QSI is $150 I am impressed with it and want to keep consistency.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A late comment: all of the DCC systems that allowed address zero, NCE included, used "zero stretching" of the DCC signal, which made the signal asymmetric, and spent more time on the plus or minus side. This sort of looks like pulsed DC to the loco. But by doing this, you interfere with the capability to send normal dcc signals, so most systems had some limitation on the number of normal DCC locos that could run at the same time. (you have to send the special signal often enough to make the loco run, which takes time away from the other locos getting commands) 

And as Knut pointed out, it has some disadvantages. Some locos run ok on it, and some buzz. It was a very important feature years ago, now not so popular. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 01:39 PM 
knut: we are not talking exactly about the same thing. Some older LGB locomotives were equipped with digital sound board that required a serial pulse when used with MTS. Replacing these sound boards with new sound decoders would cost significantly more that the $70.00 update charge. These digital sound board are what LGB onwers are concerned about when they talk about updates 
You are right when you say spending $70.00 to upgrade an old LGB decoder hardly makes any sense as long as the decoder is a light, function and motion decoder, no so when sound is involved. Futhermore many of the sound boards where quite impressive; the original blue krocodil and the orient express mallet are well known examples.

OK Mohammed, I understand.

For those situations I think there are only two options, either the Massoth p upgrade or a Zimo MX69 type decoder with SW version 8 or later which includes the serial pulse LGB sound control.

Or does Massoth also makes a decoder that interface to that type of LGB sound board?


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just came across the new Zimo MX 10 Central Station. 
First picture I have seen - looks pretty nice: 
http://www.zimo.at/web2010/ 

Description only in German so far. 
Will be shown to the public for the first time at the Leipzig Fair in a few days.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I translated some of it on your other post... I was hoping for 15-16 amps, it's 12. 12 is good, but was hoping for a significant amount "more"... anyway, I cannot read their display in full sunlight, unless they have changed to a reflective display... 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 27 Sep 2011 08:15 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 27 Sep 2011 01:39 PM 
knut: we are not talking exactly about the same thing. Some older LGB locomotives were equipped with digital sound board that required a serial pulse when used with MTS. Replacing these sound boards with new sound decoders would cost significantly more that the $70.00 update charge. These digital sound board are what LGB onwers are concerned about when they talk about updates 
You are right when you say spending $70.00 to upgrade an old LGB decoder hardly makes any sense as long as the decoder is a light, function and motion decoder, no so when sound is involved. Futhermore many of the sound boards where quite impressive; the original blue krocodil and the orient express mallet are well known examples.

OK Mohammed, I understand.

For those situations I think there are only two options, either the Massoth p upgrade or a Zimo MX69 type decoder with SW version 8 or later which includes the serial pulse LGB sound control.

Or does Massoth also makes a decoder that interface to that type of LGB sound board?


Knut 

knut:
any of the massoth light, function and motion decoders (M, L, XL) is capable of interfacing with the LGB digital sound board, and will work perfectly well without the upgrade. Some people, however, may not like the lag time associated with serial pulse and opt for the p upgrade. I have installed an xl decoder in a blue krocodil and the lag did not bother me much, I quickly learned to push the function key a little earlier than I normally would. The owner of the krocodil did not like at first either, but become used to it after a couple of months.
All Massoth decoders are capable of serial or parallel control of light, functions, and sound and can do so automatically or by selection.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mohammed - 

I still think we're talking Apples and Oranges here. 

What the Zimo decoder will do is use standard NMRA function control (wat LGB and Massoth call parallel) between the DCC Central Station and the decoder and then drive the LGB sound board not with the normal serial pulse chain but with a high speed serial pulse chain - that way, even though the communication between decoder and LGB sound board is still serial, there is no delay. 

I'm not talking the old, slow serial pulse chain concept that LGB started with. 

But in any case, not really a subject for this thread as was pointed out earlier. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right, we are derailing the thread from the original intent, which was to help Jason make a decision, and answer his questions about compatibility. It's highly likely he would buy an antique LGB unit and have to mess with this obsolete stuff. 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 27 Sep 2011 10:21 PM 
Mohammed - 

I still think we're talking Apples and Oranges here. 

What the Zimo decoder will do is use standard NMRA function control (wat LGB and Massoth call parallel) between the DCC Central Station and the decoder and then drive the LGB sound board not with the normal serial pulse chain but with a high speed serial pulse chain - that way, even though the communication between decoder and LGB sound board is still serial, there is no delay. 

I'm not talking the old, slow serial pulse chain concept that LGB started with. 

But in any case, not really a subject for this thread as was pointed out earlier. 

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 28 Sep 2011 06:23 AM 
Posted By krs on 27 Sep 2011 10:21 PM 
Mohammed - 

I still think we're talking Apples and Oranges here. 

What the Zimo decoder will do is use standard NMRA function control (wat LGB and Massoth call parallel) between the DCC Central Station and the decoder and then drive the LGB sound board not with the normal serial pulse chain but with a high speed serial pulse chain - that way, even though the communication between decoder and LGB sound board is still serial, there is no delay. 

I'm not talking the old, slow serial pulse chain concept that LGB started with. 

But in any case, not really a subject for this thread as was pointed out earlier. 

Knut 

Knut:

In this particular case we are actually talking about the same exact thing. The process is the same as you described. What you refer to as a high speed serial pulse is still a serial pulse is the source of the lag, that is the nature of the beast no matter how fast it is generated, one vs. many.

N.B. Jason do not go out and buy any LGB loco made prior to 2004, they have now been declared antiques, can't have them on you DCC track, cannot analog loc eithr, not popular. Stay tuned for future declaration.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 28 Sep 2011 06:33 AM 
Posted By mbendebba on 28 Sep 2011 06:23 AM 
Posted By krs on 27 Sep 2011 10:21 PM 
Mohammed - 

I still think we're talking Apples and Oranges here. 

What the Zimo decoder will do is use standard NMRA function control (wat LGB and Massoth call parallel) between the DCC Central Station and the decoder and then drive the LGB sound board not with the normal serial pulse chain but with a high speed serial pulse chain - that way, even though the communication between decoder and LGB sound board is still serial, there is no delay. 

I'm not talking the old, slow serial pulse chain concept that LGB started with. 

But in any case, not really a subject for this thread as was pointed out earlier. 

Knut 

Knut:

In this particular case we are actually talking about the same exact thing. The process is the same as you describe. What you refer to as a high speed serial pulse is still a serial pulse, it is the source of the lag, that is the nature of the beast no matter how fast it is generated, one vs. many.

N.B. Jason do not go out and buy any LGB locos made prior to 2004 for you future DCC track, they have now been declared antiques, can't have them on you DCC track, cannot have analog locos either, not popular. Stay tuned for future declarations.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mohammed - 

If it is the fast pulse chain there is no noticeable lag in practice. 
All pulses are generated in less time than it takes to push a function button 
SUSI for example is also serial with no noticeable lag. 

If there is a lag as you described, then it can't be the fast serial protocol between decoder and sound module. 
The fast serial protocol was used by LGB with on-board decoders and sound after 2004, it's covered in the Zimo manual on page 29. 
I never read anything that Massoth decoders support that serial protocol as well. 
Which Massoth decoder supports it and on what page of the manual is it described? 

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 28 Sep 2011 07:00 AM 
Mohammed - 

If it is the fast pulse chain there is no noticeable lag in practice. 
All pulses are generated in less time than it takes to push a function button 
SUSI for example is also serial with no noticeable lag. 

If there is a lag as you described, then it can't be the fast serial protocol between decoder and sound module. 
The fast serial protocol was used by LGB with on-board decoders and sound after 2004, it's covered in the Zimo manual on page 29. 
I never read anything that Massoth decoders support that serial protocol as well. 
Which Massoth decoder supports it and on what page of the manual is it described? 

Knut 
Knut: go to the specification page of any the Massoth motion decoders; it is there for you to discover (e.g. page 4 of the L decoder user's manual v2.3)


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Well this topic seems to have turned into a pissing match and that was not my intent. I simply wanted the pro and con off the systems that you use. I am not shopping for the best system on the market but rather one that will work best with what I have. Running an old LGB is not an issue as I have the knowledge and means to convert an engine and wiring. I do not have the knowledge on operation of DCC and looking for experienced opinion. 

I thank you all for your input even though much of what your talking about is over my head as I have never operated DCC yet. Greg, you have given me good advice and I will make sure when I am ready to purchase that I take heed of what you have said. 

If there is anyone else that can give me a clear opinion on a system other than NCE please post so I can make an informative decision.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This isn't what you asked for, but I'll summarize some thoughts about NCE.

On the pro side: 

It's very "robust." Mine sat outside in a plastic box all year round. Below 20 F in the winter, above 100 F in the summer. I've since moved it indoors, but in two+ years outside it never failed. The Power pro controller is convenient and easy to use, though it has less info on the screen than some others. It's easy and fast to do whatever you want to do. Programming on the main is a pleasure.

On the Con side:
If you want to hook it up to a computer, and run the layout using JMRI and a cell phone throttle, you have to use a serial interface. Really, a serial interface. Welcome to the 1990s! I bought a serial to USB adapter and have had trouble getting it to work right on a mac, haven't tried in a while. That new zimo model looks pretty cool!

The cabs/throttles with antenna's are a little vulnerable to damage if kids get involved. I had one break where the antenna mount is soldered to the board. The newest models have no external antenna, and in my experience these are great and suffer no loss of range. 

The company itself responds quickly to questions and has been very helpful 


@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Thank You lownote That is the kinda information that helps, So far I am leaning toward NCE and have been looking online at prices and have not seen the new model with no external antenna.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, part of the reason these types of discussions end up going in circles is because almost all the of the currently available systems will do what you want, so then all that's left are the small details/differences to get hung up on. That's why Knut and I focused our attention on the handheld, which really becomes the critical tool. In my case, because I have small children and many young (and old) visitors, the Massoth navigator was the most intuitive and logical choice. In fact shortly after I got my very first one, my wife badgered me into getting her one of her own because she liked it so much! 
If, however, you think you are going to be the main user, like touch screen technology and the latest bells and whistles, I'd wait for the new wireless Zimo handheld and central station combination--the problem there is you might be waiting a little while. Too bad you're on the opposite coast here in Canada, or you could try mine out. 

Keith


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

I agree that the handheld controller is critical, but I don't understand why no one makes a truly simple controller--one that's easy enough for a two year old. It should be preset to control just one engine or consist, and have buttons to go faster, slower, reverse, and control a few sounds. My plan with whatever system I get (probably the new Zimo) is to build a controller like this for use by kids. I haven't figured out exactly how I'm going to do this, but with a DCC system hooked up to a computer then there are a million possibilities.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree that the handheld controller is critical, but I don't understand why no one makes a truly simple controller--one that's easy enough for a two year old. 
I agree Ben, and I've given my navigator to kids that age and it's no problem. It's impossible to beat the simplicity of the dial with the center off position. You tell them "turn it backwards the train goes backwards, turn it forwards and the train goes forwards". We had a big train show here in town on the weekend, and one of the club members had his LGB remote (with a dial) connected to his transformer. Kids of all ages lined up all day for a chance to run the train and there wasn't a single kid who didn't pick up on how it works within seconds. Good luck trying to do that with a tiny roller wheel, slider or push buttons to change directions. Most of the time they don't even look at the controller, they watch what the train is doing and intuitively turn the dial and watch the response. At my place once I see they are old enough I tell them which button to push for the horn (always set for 1), and that's usually all they want. Zimo handhelds have the ability to lock out functions and run in a simplified mode, which would also work. I think NCE makes a simple wireless throttle but nothing with the simple center detent for off and I think they need to push a button to reverse direction. 

Keith


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Jason: Contrary to what you may think these discussions are not exactly pissing contest, 90% of the information conveyed in this thread is usefull, 10% represents attempts by some to bring to focus your attention exclusively on a single system. There are many ways to do that, but a common apporach practiced by a small minority on this froum is to paint all other systems in a negative light, hence what appears to be a pissing contest. I personally do not care which system you end up getting as long as its the system that will best meet your requirements within your budget. 

My initail posting listed several factors you ought to consider when selecting a DCC system. Lownote has provided by far the best summary for the NCE, and based on that summary, it seems to be an attractive option. Knut, tried to bring your attention to the lenz system, and unfortunately not much information has emerged about that system. I suspect that it is an equally impressive system and within the price range of the NEC. From a cost point of view, the other two systems mentioned in this thread, Massoth and Zimo, cannot compete. Both have high price tags that can only be justified for a very large layout with 6 to 10 locomotives to control, lots of switches, reverse loops and other gadgets and esoterica. 

One last comment, Keith genuinely loves the navigator, no question about that, and I am not far behind him in that, but I am not a big fan of mixing and matching.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Jason: Based on what Keith has just posted "nec has nothing with the simple" , I am willing to change my mind and accept a little mixing and matching. 

Keith: what system do you use?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith: what system do you use? 

I'm using a LGB MTSIII central station, LGB power supply, and navigators for control. I run all LGB locos, and with my fairly flat grades (


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I wondered the same thing--it's be great to have a controller for kids--a speed knob, a direction button, a big horn and bell button, and everything else invisible. I asked NCE about that, and they argued that A: the market for sucha controller was small, and B: the stuff that makes a controller expensive would still have to be there, so the consumer would end up paying close to top proces for less functionality. 

I ended up buying one of their "engineer" cabs to hand to kids, and I made little stickers to show what does what.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 28 Sep 2011 05:17 PM 
Keith: what system do you use?

I'm using a LGB MTSIII central station, LGB power supply, and navigators for control. I run all LGB locos, and with my fairly flat grades (


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I beg to differ with ya but there are systems out there just as good and a lot cheaper then the Zimo or Massoth. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

NCE does have a wide range of throttles that work with their system, a wider range than any other system I believe, but in Jason's case, a "dumbed down" controller was not a big requirement if I am not mistaken. 

Don't forget lighted cars in your calculation of power used, I have a passenger train, 2/3 of the 10 amps drawn is the lighted cars. Granted it's a 10 car passenger train, but it puts it in perspective. A lighted caboose, a smoke unit, and sound ... I've seen too many people unhappy that they bought a 5 amp system first. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

You are correct Greg I am not too worried about how many buttons are on it as long as I can controll the train and sound. For the most part I run my trains in a continuous loop and adjust the speed where it has enough power to handle the inclines and let it go. I would like to trigger the horn at a specific spot on the layout with out having to push a button. But from what I understand with the QSI I am unable to do that. I know the LGB's can do this through read switches. 

There will not be many kids operating my layout and if they are I will be there to show them. 

I have lights on my layout now that are battery operated but in the future I will have them operated by a seperate power supply and switching system from the trains.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

After you heard now from the sales representative of Massoth (BenDebba) and I have finally some time, I can now chime in.

Do you know the hair-club for men commercial "I am not only the president, but I am also a client?"

Years ago I choose a a DCC system and ultimately also my decoders based on a lot of research, some trials and found that already at that time I enjoyed ZIMO the best. This was years before Train-Li-USA received the ZIMO distribution and is now supporting the line in NA. The upcoming MX10 central station combined with the already existing MX32 (however, the RF version will take about until the end of the year), is the latest state-of-the art technology. Full color display that allows you to get real representations of your engines (not just pictogram's), customized by engine function key representation that is showing the correct function on each key instead of F1, F2, ....., the easiest guidance into CV programming, direct display of switch status (thrown, or not thrown), the list of advantages is so long, that when I held an MX32 for the first time, I said oh my god.

Price wise the ZIMO will be $150-$200 above a basic system such as NCE (once you compare apples to apples) and about 40 % below the Massoth system, which is basically 10 year old ++ technology (so is NCE). I don't say this out of spite, but it is just the facts.

Now depending on you power needs you can also look into PIKO with is basically a 1/2 price Massoth (identical handheld, 5A central station - but you can buy a 5A booster.


If you wouldn't be in Canada, our offer for a free evaluation of the ZIMO central station and handheld would be easy to take advantage off, but with Canada we have the extra complication of clearing customs.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I am sorry Axel Tillmann but I have read your post 3 time and do not understand anything you said, That is way over my head I am afraid. I have looked at Zimo on there web site and could not make heads or tails to navigate to the prices. When I did find prices on other web sites I was not impressed, By the time I got everything and purchased new decoders for all my engine I was well one $1000. Maybe you can clear things up.


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

I was really confused by Zimo too until I talked to Axel and team at the NGRC this summer. Regardless of which system you pick I recommend giving them a call. I asked a lot of questions and they were patience and explained everything to me. It doesn't help that we're right in the middle of a transition between the old Zimo system and the new MX32/MX10 system, so that's part of the reason there seems to be so much conflicting information out there. And it doesn't help that a lot of the most current information is in German. I've been using Google Translate to translate content and try to figure it all out, and I took two semesters of German in college so at least I understand a few things. 

I understand that prices are supposed to be significantly lower than the old system, but I'm sure you'll still be over $1000 for a basic setup. Of course this isn't really a "basic" setup--there's no "starter" model you'll have to throw away when you expand. 

If the price is a huge factor and you don't need all the advanced functionality then Zimo might not be right for you, but I'd encourage you to call Axel and learn more about it before you make your decision.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

jason: As I previously said, this is not exactly a pissing contest, it an attempt to get you to focus your attention exclusively on a single system, the one and only, the state of art, the dream system. Stay the course, you are doing fine.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I expect the price for a starter kit (MX32 + MX10) to be around $1000 based on earlier indication.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jason, one feature requested on the new QSI was the ability to trigger sounds with reed switches, so your wish may come true. (All the functions still controllable by DCC as well). 

So, we will see.... it's an important feature, since the only other high quality sound system that can do this is the Phoenix. (Which is also an option on your locos since it does DCC, but it kind of wants to be either DC or DCC). 

There will be a lot of options for you, trust me, you will be able to basically do whatever you want, there's just so much hardware out there for DCC. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The Zimo MX 695 sound decoder can do that as well, trigger sounds via a reed contact - it has two separate inputs for that 
The Dietz decoder was another one that could do that, but for it one needed to add a separate SUSI sound module. 

Once one has switched to DCC the possibilities become nearly endless. 
And those functions don't depend on the DCC system that is chosen. 

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 28 Sep 2011 07:32 AM 
Knut: go to the specification page of any the Massoth motion decoders; it is there for you to discover (e.g. page 4 of the L decoder user's manual v2.3)

That is the original slow pulse chain, not the fast serial interface between the LGB on-board decoder and the latest LGB sound units.
The Massoth decoders don't support that - at least I have never seen any mention of it with any Massoth decoder.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo mx69x series have 3 trigger inputs. One for chuff, and 2 for bell and whistle. If you use back emf for chuff, then that input can be programmed for a third reed sensor. Perhaps a center magnet for station announcement.


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Has anyone used Lenz DCC system with QSI sound cards. I am sure they are compatible but need verification.I am looking at a LENZ DIGITAL PLUS SET90 and running it through my ipod


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Navy Seal, I have used both the wired LH90 and LH100 sets with QSI Aristo units. No problems to report. 

I sold my Lenz and went with NCE wireless 10 amp set and happy. 

Keep us posted on the ipod control. 

Alan


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I have not purchase a DCC system yet but doing my research and trying to get the best bang for my without having to rob a bank or sell crack on the street corner...LOL


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