# Phoenix 2k2 Chuff Trigger help?



## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm working on my new KISS K-36 (a steam locomotive)
It came with a DCC board and other components that I have since removed. I went down to bare bones for a future battery conversion. Bare bones meaning no power boards. Just the wires and appropriate resistors for the LEDs. Everything works fine, LEDs, motor, etc... 
The only thing I can't seem to get to work is what I believe to be the built in reed switch for a chuff sound board. The chuff sensor (reed switch) is on one of the axles, looks like a four blade boat prop, and has two sensors on either side of it. The sensors have a red and black wire going to them. Since there are two I'm assuming this is for a 4 chuff sound, appropriate for a K-36. 
I joined the red and black wires (red to red, and black to black) from each sensor together so there would only be two wires instead of 4. The two wires go to terminal 16 and 15 on my Phoenix 2k2 board. I wired the motor to a 9 volt battery (to move the wheels and thus move the chuff trigger) and another 9 volt batt to the Phoenix board to power it up. This was just to test the sounds before the loco gets a 15-18 volt battery. I can configure the settings on the Phoenix board just fine via the computer interface and power to the board with the 9 volt. 
But the chuff never worked. I thought maybe my old board had a problem with terminal 15 (you never know?) so I changed the chuff trigger to terminal 14 and tested, but still no luck. 
I wonder if the KISS reed switch is compatible with Phoenix sound? 
Does anyone have any suggestions that I should experiment with to see if I can get the chuff to work? If I can't get it to work I'll just use magnets on a tender wheel using a Phoenix reed switch. But it would be nice to use the built in sound trigger.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Have you tried it with a single reed switch? Perhaps they don't trigger simultaneously. It should be easy enough to test them individually and wired in parallel. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's probably a hall effect sensor, not a reed switch. 

If it was a reed switch, you would have magnets on each of the 4 blades... 

The hall effect sensor needs what is basically an amplifier to sense the magnetic variations... was probably in the DCC board. 

If it was a reed switch, you could put an ohmeter across the sensor leads and see the resistance go from open circuit to 0 ohms. 

why not put 4 very small magnets on the "prop" and then place a reed switch near it? 

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Seperate the wires on the sensors. Hook an ohm meter to each reed switch, one at a time, and roll over the engine. The meter should show the switch opening and closing. If they both work, you can then connect the wires together. Hook the meter back up and test it again.In either case,f it open & close, you have found the culpret.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll try it with just one. Will report what happens.


Never heard of a Hall effect sensor before. I bet that is what it is. I suppose I could put magnets on it, but there is not much room under there. Not enough room for the typical large Phoenix reed switch.


I'll test the thing with my OHM meter to see what is up. I wonder what setting to put the meter to? Time to check out the manual.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

put meter on ohms... if you have multiple scales it won't matter, if it's a reed switch it will go from infinite to zero, no matter what the scale. 

(the scale may be marked Rx1k or something similar... means: Resistance (R) times (x) 1,000 (1k)..... 


Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Hall Effect magnetic sensors have three leads, power, common and an output don't they? 

Michael


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice. Really helpful forum this is.

It probably won't be until next weekend when I get some time to test it out (spent this weekend wiring, soldering, etc). But I'll report what I find.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Maybe its an IR proximity sensor, four wires two each on opposite sides of a baffle is plausible. 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Michael you are right, but the only other guess I have would be a photodiode, but you normally need to shoot IR to it, thus more wires. 

I do know that many systems use hall effect, LGB did. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Some reeds are normally closed, these need to be in series to work for a chuff circuit. 
If the reed is Normally open, they are in parallel. 
Then the sound board has to be programmed for the reed switch sensing and which type of sensor.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With the "prop" this is definitely not a reed switch. My best guess is a hall effect. 

Matt, can you post some closeups? 

Regards, Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jan 2010 12:00 PM 
With the "prop" this is definitely not a reed switch. My best guess is a hall effect. 

Matt, can you post some closeups? 

Regards, Greg 
Sure Greg. When I open her up again this weekend (or possibly sooner if I get the time) I'll take some photos of the reed/hall/ whatever sensor. I know nothing helps more then a photo.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds to me like an opto interruptor. 2 of those wires go to an IR led on one side, and the other to a phototransistor. If you turn the thing on, you should be able to see the IR with a digital camera. It'll be down inside the sensor. 

Yes, Phoenix easily connects to a reed switch. That's how mine runs. 

My small scale railways board had an optical sensor that looked for stripes on the axel. Worked well enough once I built a plastic box to shield it from outside light. Then it quit working, so I put an old reed switch in instead. Dave gave me a handful.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Two sensors with two wires on either side of prop/cogged disc eliminates a Hall Effect sensor IMO. That said this is exactly how an IR proximity sensor with two IR led’s would work bouncing off one another. 

Matt, 

Are magnets located on the "prop"? Magnets would suggest reed switches IMO. How many blades or openings are on the "prop"? 

Michael


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 11 Jan 2010 06:39 PM 
Two sensors with two wires on either side of prop/cogged disc eliminates a Hall Effect sensor IMO. That said this is exactly how an IR proximity sensor with two IR led’s would work bouncing off one another. 

Matt, 

Are magnets located on the "prop"? Magnets would suggest reed switches IMO. How many blades or openings are on the "prop"? 

Michael 


No magnets on the "prop". Four blades and four openings.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Re-reading your post, I missed the 4 wires total. One set is probably the IR LED, the other a photodiode. 

Is one pair coming from one "half" of the unit, and the other pair from the other half? 

Regards, Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jan 2010 08:49 PM 
Re-reading your post, I missed the 4 wires total. One set is probably the IR LED, the other a photodiode. 

Is one pair coming from one "half" of the unit, and the other pair from the other half? 

Regards, Greg 
Yes, exactly like that. One pair from one half, the other pair from the other half. 


So if it is an IR LED, then I guess the LED needs power. And then the photodiode acts like the reed switch...meaning this is what goes to the Phoenix board?


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Matt, 

The IR LED's require several components to complete the circuit. So you'll have to determine where the additional components were/are previously installed. 

Michael


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 11 Jan 2010 10:46 PM 
Matt, 

The IR LED's require several components to complete the circuit. So you'll have to determine where the additional components were/are previously installed. 

Michael 
Eeep









I guess I'll have to trace where it went and to what on the old boards.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

OK got some time last night for some photos:





























Where the wires come in are small + for the red wires, and small - E for one black wire and - D for the other black wire. One red and one black go to each side. This being a German locomotive, I figure the E and D stand for something in German. I sort of recall lettering like this on an LGB mogul.


So any idea on what I have here? 

Oh I tried using just one side (one red and one black) hooked up to the board and no luck. I even checked to see if the board chuff trigger worked (put two wires together and then apart and the chuff triggered). So I know the chuff works, it's just this propeller thing that I can't seem to get to trigger the Phoenix board.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

TCST 2103, by Vishay electronics, Transmissive optical sensor with phototransistor output 

http://www.chipdig.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/513/TCST-2103-pdf.php 

Be careful, look up the specs on the current through the LED... 60 ma max... just like any other LED, if no dropping resistor, it burns out... 

The photodiode may not go low enough in resistance to trigger your chuff... 

Page 4 of the data sheet shows a setup for input of 5 volts, you will need to adjust the resistor values for a different input voltage. The emitter is easy, just like a LED... the output is a bit trickier, you need to make sure you do not exceed the max collector current, so that 100 ohm resistor needs to be recalculated... 

What voltage do you have available? 

Regards, Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like this is a Vishay Semiconductors TCST 2103. Looking online I found that it is a "Transmissive Optical Sensor with Phototransistor Output". I even found a data sheet.

TCST Data Sheet 


The data sheet kind of shows how to wire it, but exactly how to is puzzling me


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

email me your phone number.... [email protected] 

I can explain in 5 minutes on the phone... 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Same type of gadget is installed on my swimming pools floor sweep system; 8 port valves move in timed intervals redirecting pop-up water jets that rotate every time they pop-up directing debris from the pool floor toward the deep end and or main drain. I had to replace one last year; they wanted $90.00 for the Opto Sensor and mounting bracket, geez! $18.00 later I had four of the sensors shipped to me. 

Michael


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Update, sort of.

I tired wiring it up, with lots of help from Greg (thanks Greg). But I think I must have fried the infrared LED as it just does not seem to work. Nothing picked up by the OHM meter either. Never saw a zero, just overload.


Stupidly I never tested it before I took everything apart to see if it even worked from the factory. This loco came with DCC on board. Meaning to test I would have had to unhook my HO DCC system then hook it up to a test track of G scale. Not easy to do or really worth it just to test a loco that was going to be converted to battery power and Airwire. The loco works on DC as well, but to access the various sounds were DCC only.

Oh well. Looks like using magnets and a Phoenix reed switch is the way to go.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What about putting some of those really tiny magnets on the "blades" and mounting a reed switch there? 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

You can easily get another of those parts:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+Vishay+Semiconductors+TCST+2103


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