# Accucraft/Aster BR Standard 5 Safety Valve



## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I just steamed up my Accucraft/Aster BR Standard 5 for the first time since this winter. I've noticed my safety valve starts to weep once I get 1 bar of pressure and I can't keep boiler pressure up without the draft fan in place. All the steam seems to be going out the safety valve and none is reaching the cylinders when I open the throttle. Does anybody what is causing this and what I can do fix it? Any help would be appreciated.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

First question, in the winter was it running normally?
Did you try to tap the top of the valve to see if it would seat properly?
Or even use some needle nosed pliers to lift it up and then let it drop to help it seat.
Could just be dirt, or depending on the quality of water, the ball may be in bad shape.
Even some of the 'stainless' balls are not as stainless as they should be.
Now, also IF it is just weeping, you should still be able to get more pressure then just 1 bar.
It must be more blowing off if that's the case.
If it is just weeping, I think that maybe you have a bigger issue.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

First question, I last ran it December with no issue. Saturday March 20th, was it's first steaming after that and it ran with no issue. Today was when I experienced the issues.

Second question, I did not try that but I just lifted both safety valves up with pliers and let them drop. Depending on the weather, I will not be able to steam it up again until Friday.

I am not sure about the water, but I always used distilled water in my engine.

I think weeping was understatement on my part, it wasn't going full blast like say at 4 bar, but yes, I think blowing off is the right term here.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Then, and it's difficult without actually seeing it, I would perhaps think that either it has 'unscrewed', or the spring has softened, and all you need to do is to adjust the safety.
Do they both look at about the same level at the tops?
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I just lifted both safety valves up with pliers and let them drop.


If you have 2 safeties, then are both 'weeping' or blowing off? Or just one of them? It is unlikely that both are clogged/loose/damaged at the exact same time.
When you open the throttle, does the pressure drop and the safety stop weeping?


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Get with Jim Sanders,and get 2 new ones that in my opinion work GREAT It will be worth the Money


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Pete Thornton said:


> If you have 2 safeties, then are both 'weeping' or blowing off? Or just one of them? It is unlikely that both are clogged/loose/damaged at the exact same time.
> When you open the throttle, does the pressure drop and the safety stop weeping?


The front one is the one that keeps blowing off. 

Yes, the pressure drops when I open the throttle, but the safety valve doesn't stop blowing until it gets below 1 bar of pressure.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> The front one is the one that keeps blowing off.


OK. Just to confirm it, swap them and make the front one the back one, See if it still blows. 
If so, get a new one (as Bob says, the WeeBee ones are good, or you can get a spare,) or fix the old one. It may just be dirt in the seal.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

OR, as I said, it may just need adjusting.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I photographed the safety valves on my 5MT. It is the Aster version but I would imagine pretty much identical. Not obvious from the pics, but each safety should be set by a pinch mark to stop it moving. I did have an instance on another Aster engine where the safety had begun to unscrew - maybe that is the issue here - if so adjust it by tightening with needle nose pliers and fix with a tiny drop of paint. Ideally, you do this with a compressor - tighten until the back is blowing first, then back off a little. 










Robert


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## TY (Apr 8, 2009)

STrinder5475 said:


> I just steamed up my Accucraft/Aster BR Standard 5 for the first time since this winter. I've noticed my safety valve starts to weep once I get 1 bar of pressure and I can't keep boiler pressure up without the draft fan in place. All the steam seems to be going out the safety valve and none is reaching the cylinders when I open the throttle. Does anybody what is causing this and what I can do fix it? Any help would be appreciated.


I’ve had this happen when stem outlets are clogged with cold/crusty steam oil. Try heating the cylinders and steam pipes to loosen it up. By the way, I use the WeeBee valves from The Train Department now. They are fantastic and do not weep ever. They buzz at exactly the right pressure. Recommended!


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## [email protected] (Dec 28, 2018)

Jim Sanders fixed one of mine at Diamondhead. He polished seat and the ball if I recall
.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I tried steaming it up yesterday (Sat. March 27th). I swapped the safety valves. Pressure no longer drops when the draft fan is removed but what was the front safety valve is still lifting prematurely. Nothing is still happening when I open the throttle either.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't know how experienced you are with live steam, so please excuse questions that you may feel are un-needed.
When you say "nothing happens" when you open the throttle, is it in forward gear? 
Are you pushing the loco. or just waiting for it to move?
Are there cylinder drains on the 5MT, and if so are they open?
Are the cylinders full of water and need clearing?
I would adjust the one safety valve so that you force the other to lift first - BUT check the pressure gauge to see where that is.
Do you have any live steamers close by who can assist you?
Good luck,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Do you have any live steamers close by who can assist you?


If you really are up near Binghamton (Mr Trinder, if that's yr name, not you David,) then you are in Finger Lakes Live Steamers territory, based in Clyde NY. (The Browns in Newark Valley is the nearest track that I have visited.) I have some contacts if you need to visit with someone to discuss your loco?


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Pete Thornton said:


> If you really are up near Binghamton (Mr Trinder, if that's yr name, not you David,) then you are in Finger Lakes Live Steamers territory, based in Clyde NY. (The Browns in Newark Valley is the nearest track that I have visited.) I have some contacts if you need to visit with someone to discuss your loco?


Sorry, but I'm not in that Barker. I'm in the Barker in Niagara County near Buffalo.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

David Leech said:


> I don't know how experienced you are with live steam, so please excuse questions that you may feel are un-needed.
> When you say "nothing happens" when you open the throttle, is it in forward gear?
> Are you pushing the loco. or just waiting for it to move?
> Are there cylinder drains on the 5MT, and if so are they open?
> ...


I'm pretty new to live steam. I started last summer with an Accucraft Ruby. This is my second live steamer. 

When I open the throttle, the locomotive is in forward.
I've only run the locomotive on rollers, I've tried to coax it, but I can't really push it.
It has cylinder drains which I open when I first open the throttle like the instructions say.
I have no idea if there is water in the cylinders or how to clear them other than opening the drains.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Okay, so you are still running on the rollers, correct?
It's okay to keep the blower on just a little to make sure that the fire stays inside the firebox while you are 'fiddling'
With the drains open, and the throttle open, is steam coming out of the drains as you turn the wheels.
You may have to push on the spokes to turn them.
They will be stiff to turn at first, and mind your fingers, as depending how open you have the throttle, the wheels might suddenly begin to turn.
Once it is running, then you can close the cylinder drains.
I find it a lot easier on a piece of track, where you can roll the loco forward, or back, adding pressure to make the wheels turn.
If there is NO steam coming out of the drains, then we must assume that no steam is getting to the cylinders, which will be another problem to solve.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I have no idea if there is water in the cylinders or how to clear them other than opening the drains.


Well, you won't be surprised to hear that the drains are designed to clear water out of the cylinders. There had to be some reason for the name, right?
What is going on when you fire up a steam loco is that there may be water in the steam pipe to the cylinders - sometimes we overfill the boiler, sometimes the steam condenses because things are not warmed up. It gets in the way when you open the throttle.

In a sophisticated model like the Black 5, you have drains, and as you rock the engine any water is expedited out of the drains; you can often see it dribbling out even before anything starts to move. You rock it by alternately putting it in forward hear, opening the throttle a little, pushing it forward, closing the throttle, putting it in reverse, and pushing backwards. It will be very resistant at first, as water is not as helpful as steam, but it will (should) slowly begin to leak water from the drains and squirt it from the pipe in the stack - or maybe it oozes from the pipe and falls down onto the track below the smokebox.

Your Ruby would just spit the water out of the stack as you rocked it backwards and forwards to clear the cylinders and warm everything up. (Did you ever get a faceful? )
What David is suggesting is that it is easier to rock the loco to clear out the pipes and cylinders if it is on the track.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I tried rocking the engine on track today without success, some water came out of the cylinders but no steam followed into the cylinders.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

When you say 'rock', did the wheels rotate at least a couple of revolutions?
I find that it is very hard to solve mysteries without seeing and hearing what is going on.
If I were you, try and find someone locally with live steam experience who can help diagnose the problem.
One 'possibly messy' thing that you can try, to make sure that steam is getting to the cylinders, is to remove the lubricator cap, and carefully open the throttle to check that steam comes out.
Of course a bunch of oil may also be forced out, but at least you will know that steam is getting to the cylinders.
Did you buy this Ready to Run, or build it from a kit?
Maybe Bednariks at Triple R can be of service to you if you can't get it running.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

The wheels did rotate just fine without issue. I bought it RTR, I don't have enough confidence in my mechanical abilities to build one.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

So, was there little or no resistance when pushing it?
With the regulator open, it should not be very free to roll.
Are you sure when you rotate the regulator arm, that the actual regulator spindle in turning.
Often when a loco cools down, if the regulator is closed tight, it may seize up closed.
Normally the next time it is heated up with the boiler heat, it will come loose, but also sometimes the actual arm will come loose on the spindle.
Then when you think that the steam is getting to the cylinders, it really isn't.
Might be worth checking.
Before I steam up, I always make sure both regulator and blower are opening and closing freely.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> If there is NO steam coming out of the drains, then we must assume that no steam is getting to the cylinders, which will be another problem to solve.





STrinder5475 said:


> I tried rocking the engine on track today without success, some water came out of the cylinders but no steam followed into the cylinders.


Well, we're going to assume you had it in gear (forward or reverse) and you opened the throttle; the basic stuff.
A few more suggestions:

take a close look at the valve gear and make sure the reversing lever is moving the link up or down in the rocking expansion link. Walschaerts valve gear - Wikipedia
you could take a look at a GIF of the valve gear so you see which parts move, and then take a look at your engine and confirm the same parts seem to work the same way.
steam from the throttle valve passes by/through the lubricator. To confirm the valve is working, remove the cap on the lubricator and get the boiler hot until you have a little pressure, then open the trottle as David suggested.


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## Ger  (Jan 13, 2009)

zephyra said:


> I photographed the safety valves on my 5MT. It is the Aster version but I would imagine pretty much identical. Not obvious from the pics, but each safety should be set by a pinch mark to stop it moving. I did have an instance on another Aster engine where the safety had begun to unscrew - maybe that is the issue here - if so adjust it by tightening with needle nose pliers and fix with a tiny drop of paint. Ideally, you do this with a compressor - tighten until the back is blowing first, then back off a little.
> 
> View attachment 61401
> 
> ...


I have the Aster BR5. A good running engine. I test my safety and adjust the safety valves with compressed air as shown in video.





Appears to me that a standard Wee Bee valve would not fit the BR5. The valve mounting hole is 8 mm below the liner and the hole is only 8.5 mm . You may need a special made valve. I would recommend you insure the safety valve is not leaking then work on other possible problems.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I was able to run the locomotive without issue on Saturday May 1st, for the Twitter Steam Rally. It appears the issues were being caused by too much water in the boiler.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Glad to hear that the 'problem' went away.
Cheers,
David


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I tried rocking the engine on track today without success, some water came out of the cylinders but no steam followed into the cylinders.


Loosen the oil filler cap and open the throttle a small amount and see if you have steam that far !!!


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

forget my suggestion.......you got it running


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Draining the boiler after each run has proven to be a bit more tricky than I was anticipating and I was filling the boiler even when there was water in the boiler.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Try and keep an eye on the water gauge as you pump water in, to prevent adding too much water.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Hello,

I'm having issues with my locomotive again. This time, the fire will not light. I looked at the wicks and decided they were in need of replacing. I installed new wicks today, but there was no change. I light a match, stick in the firebox and instead of the wicks catching the flame the match is smothered and goes out. I can not think of any reason for this be happening now that there are fresh new wicks in there. I am completely baffled.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Did you make sure that the fuel is getting to the burner? Did you see it filling up the plastic tube?
If not, did you try the fuel tank out of the tender and open the control and make sure that fuel runs out?
Any chance that water splashed into the sump?
When you put new wicks in, did you empty the burner tubes of any liquid?
Tie a piece of wick material on a wire, stick it in your alcohol and light it to make sure that the alcohol is still good.
Is the suction fan running at full speed?
Good luck.
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Yes, I did see the alcohol fill the tube.
I am not aware of any water that entered the sump.
There was no liquid in the burner when I installed the new wicks.
My fan does run at full speed, I put new batteries in this month.

My alcohol is new, but I will give that a try.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I know it's a lot of work, but maybe remove the burner and hook it up with the tender and light it make sure that everything (just the wicks) light up.
Do it in a dark place, or in the evening, when you can see the flames.
Then you know that the fuel and wicks are NOT the issue and can begin to look for other issues.
Also remove the smokebox door to look down the flue so that you can make sure that nothing is blocking it.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I just tested a piece of wick on it's own and there was no issue. Also checked the batteries for the draft fan and they were fine. I'll try the lighting the burner alone tonight if the weather cooperates.

Thanks
Stephen


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

It is really tough to diagnose these problems remotely, but here are some thoughts.....

1. Make sure you didn't pack the wicks too tightly - the best packing is when they just stay in place when you hold the burner upside down. I wouldn't hurry to replace the wicks - they usually work even if they look awful. Packing them too tightly can close off the supply. 

2. Try lighting from underneath the burner with a butane lighter. The fan can create too much draft for a match. You mentioned trying to light the burner through the firebox door - I have the Aster 5MT and the only way to light the burner is from underneath but maybe Accucraft changed this in the re-issue.

3. If you remove the burner and light it outside the engine, be very careful to set the height of the burner relative to the tender as it would be if installed. Otherwise, alcohol can spill over the sides of the burner with nasty results.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

Where did you get the impression that I tried to light it through the smokebox door? The newer issue works the same way as the older issue, with the burner underneath.

The instructions said to put 24 to 26 strands in each burner, I put 26 in. If 26 is too many, what number would you recommend instead?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

As a general rule, I pack my wicks so that if you grab them and try to pull them out, there will be very little resistance.
As Robert says, to the point that if you turn the burner upside down, you would think that they might fall out, but don't.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I reduced the number of strands in each burner and just tried it on it's own, without the rest of the engine. It burned very well without any issues.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Good news.
So that suggests that all is well with fuel supply and burners.
Hopefully when installed back in the loco, there should be no problem.
IF there is, like I say, make sure that there is no restriction in the flue, or the path of the heat from the burner.
Good luck,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

So, this saga is still not complete.

In August, I had the locomotive sent to Triple R Steam Services. There, the throttle assembly was replaced, there was a blockage in steam pipe from the boiler to the cylinders cleared out and a crack in the superheater repaired.

The locomotive returned two days after Christmas and yesterday, New Year's Eve 2021 I had my first chance to run the locomotive since the repairs. I'm now having a problem with boiler keeping pressure. I've noticed steam starts coming out of the safety valves at about 1 bar of pressure, though it still lifts as it should around 4 bar. But when the throttle is opened, pressure drops quite quickly. I think the safety valves are the problem, but I am not sure.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I would have assumed that Ryan had test run the loco before returning it.
Is that so?
When you have pressure and remove the suction fan and open the blower, does it maintain pressure and even build pressure?
With a mirror can you see that ALL the wicks are alight?
During shipping could one of the wicks have fallen out?
It is so much easier to diagnose problems in person, so do you have any fellow steamers that can help you?
Happy New Year,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> So, this saga is still not complete.
> 
> In August, I had the locomotive sent to Triple R Steam Services. There, the throttle assembly was replaced, there was a blockage in steam pipe from the boiler to the cylinders cleared out and a crack in the superheater repaired.
> 
> The locomotive returned two days after Christmas and yesterday, New Year's Eve 2021 I had my first chance to run the locomotive since the repairs. I'm now having a problem with boiler keeping pressure. I've noticed steam starts coming out of the safety valves at about 1 bar of pressure, though it still lifts as it should around 4 bar. But when the throttle is opened, pressure drops quite quickly. I think the safety valves are the problem, but I am not sure.


I doubt the safety valves are the issue. They usually weep slightly as the boiler comes up to pressure. 

If you are not getting enough heat to the boiler, then two possible causes:

1. Wicks are too tight - there is an art to getting the right number of wicks in the burmer. Typical test is that just enough to stop them falling out when turned upside down.

2. No enough draught (draft). Alcohol fires need forced air flow. In startup phase this comes from the suction fan. Once the engine is up to steam, you create airflow from the blower when it is stationary or it comes from the steam blast pipes when the engine moves. Typically you close the blower when the engine is in motion but if you have a heavy load, you may need to leave it slightly cracked open to enhance the airflow. 

You may just need to more patient. There is a lot of metal to heat up before the steam starts to work efficiently. Some of my engines perform badly at first and struggle to maintain pressure for the first few laps on the track. I bring them to a halt, use the hand pump to ensure that there is plenty of water in the boiler and let them come back up to pressure. Then off they go with the throttle open less than a quarter of a turn. 

Robert


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I'll check the wicks. I did repack them over the summer, so they may be too tight.

I'm getting pressure to build up to 4 bar, but as I said earlier it drops as soon as I open the throttle. I usually close the blower just before opening the throttle. Should I switch the order in which I do that? Open the throttle first and then close the blower? Would that make a difference?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I suggest that you take the suction fan off at about 1 - 2 bar, and then open the blower.
At that point does the pressure stay the same or increase?
You are not still over filling the boiler are you as that leaves very little room for steam to build up.
Keep it at about half full in the glass.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I take off the suction fan at 1 bar, and open the blower until it reaches 4 bar. Once at 4 bar, I close the blower, open the throttle and she then starts to loose pressure.

I try to keep the boiler at 3/4 full. If that's still too much, I'll lower it to 1/2.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

How much do you open the fuel valve?
I had a friend over whose loco was running out of 'steam' as it ran around the track, and I suggested, and it was, a blockage in the fuel tank and the fire was just slowly being reduced.
Take the fuel tank out, and open the valve fully to make sure that you are getting a good strong flow of fuel.
Cheers,
David


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I take off the suction fan at 1 bar, and open the blower until it reaches 4 bar. Once at 4 bar, I close the blower, open the throttle and she then starts to loose pressure.
> 
> I try to keep the boiler at 3/4 full. If that's still too much, I'll lower it to 1/2.


Having the boiler at 1/2 versus 3/4 wont make much difference other than the time it takes to come up to steam.

I know this must all be very frustrating, but let's assume that triple R tested the machine and there are no mechanical issues and that the burners are producing enough heat. Then what........

Most engines will not start simply by opening the throttle. You first need to clear the cylinders. If you don't clear the cylinders, the engine will just sit there venting steam and losing pressure.This could be your problem. 

Everyone has their own technique for doing this. What I do is for an engine like this that does not have cylinder cocks is::

1. Blower just cracked open to maintain airflow.
2. Set the reverser to full forward
3. Open the bypass valve for the axle pump (to make sure you are not pumping cold water into the boiler while you clear the cylinders).
4. Open throttle 1/4 turn (or less). 
5. Push the engine forward on the track. As the wheels turn, you should see spurts of hot water from the smoke stake.
6. Close the throttle
7. Pull the engine back to start point
8. Repeat steps 4-7 until the engine wants to move by itself. If the pressure drops, just pause at 7. 
9. Once the engine wants to move, let it do a couple of circuits of the track with the throttle just cracked open to get everything warmed up. Then attach a load but remember that the throttle/regulator on most Aster locomotives are incredibly sensitive and rarely need more than 1/4 turn to get full power. 
10. After a few more laps, close the axle pump bypass valve to start refilling the boiler. Eventually you will find that a setting for the axle pump bypass that just pushes enough water into the boiler to offset steam use but until that time, just think of it as an on/off switch and check the water level regularly. 

Sounds complicated but it is really quite straightforward. Ideally you would find a local steam-up and get someone to help until you get the knack. Remote diagnosis is hard. 

Robert
.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

zephyra said:


> Everyone has their own technique for doing this. What I do is for an engine like this that does not have cylinder cocks is::
> 
> Robert
> .


I got my Aster BR Standard off the shelf and fired it up this afternoon. Firstly, I completely forgot that it does in fact have cylinder drains - they are very fiddly. With them open, the steam is venting from the cylinders rather than through the stack which means you need to leave the blower on to maintain pressure. 

Overall this is one of the harder locomotives to bring into life. It came up to pressure quickly but took a good active ten minutes before I had it running strongly. Open throttle, push forward, close throttle, pull back, repeat pausing every now and again to make sure it is up to pressure. Once it is fully warmed up and the cylinder drains closed, it puled strongly with 5 BR coaches in tow.

I am assuming the Accucraft Standard 5 is exactly the same as the slightly earlier Aster model that I have. 

Good luck - I think patience will win out here.

Robert


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

David Leech said:


> How much do you open the fuel valve?
> I had a friend over whose loco was running out of 'steam' as it ran around the track, and I suggested, and it was, a blockage in the fuel tank and the fire was just slowly being reduced.
> Take the fuel tank out, and open the valve fully to make sure that you are getting a good strong flow of fuel.
> Cheers,
> David


I open the fuel with a quarter turn, which is what the instruction manual says to do. I wait a few minutes for the sumps to fill and the hose is completely filled with alcohol.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I open the fuel with a quarter turn, which is what the instruction manual says to do. I wait a few minutes for the sumps to fill and the hose is completely filled with alcohol.


I would think that that is NOT enough.
Since it is a chicken feed, opening the valve too little will make the fire go out, or at least not be at full heat.
I open my locos a good couple of turns to ensure that the sump is always full.
The chicken feed will prevent it from overflowing.
Cheers,
David


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

zephyra said:


> Having the boiler at 1/2 versus 3/4 wont make much difference other than the time it takes to come up to steam.
> 
> I know this must all be very frustrating, but let's assume that triple R tested the machine and there are no mechanical issues and that the burners are producing enough heat. Then what........
> 
> ...


When I fire mine up, once I am up to pressure, I close the blower, set the reverser in whichever direction I'm going, open the drain cocks and then open the throttle. I usually try to open as little as possible and open it up slowly. Once I see steam coming out of the cylinders, I then close the drain cocks and adjust the speed. I'm still learning when it comes to the by-pass valve and where the ideal setting is, but I didn't know it should be fully shut when starting. Last time it was steamed up, I only had it rollers, so I couldn't rock it like I do with my Ruby, but I will try that next time.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I just found the Accucraft version of the 5MT instructions on-line, and it says open the valve 1 (one) turn.
Cheers,
David


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

It's been a while as I've been waiting for the weather to improve, we've had quite a strong winter this year, but this weekend, I will try everything you guys have said. Thanks for the advice.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

So I tried to fire her up this afternoon. I noticed my draft fan was going slower than usual, I changed the batteries but it made no difference. As such, the pressure would not build, I did try using the blower instead and did build up full pressure with it wide open after which it completed one loop around the track, but lost pressure when I closed the blower. I also noticed despite not having pressure show on the gauge, the safety valves had lifted and I was getting a pretty good plume of steam when the blower was open. I want to try again tomorrow but I'm wondering if I need a new draft fan or what? I ran out of fuel shortly afterwards and decided to call it a day.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I would have thought that it was unusual for a blower just to run slow, if it wean't battery related.
Check the connections and wires first just to be sure.
Also, blower valves are interesting things, as IF you open them too much at first, whilst you create a lot of draft, you also use up any available pressure.
They need to be delicately opened, so that you very slowly keep increasing pressure, without using up more that you make!
Also pressure gauges often get stuck, something a flick of the finger will bring off zero.
Good luck.
Let me know when you are fed up with it and want to sell it!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I tried running it again today. This time I was able to build up pressure no problem, the fan needed fresh batteries. I also had no problem keeping up pressure. However, it didn't seem like any steam was getting to the cylinders. I tried the steps zephyra posted and while some water came out of the drain cocks, the locomotive made no attempt to move on it's own accord. The only thing I can think of is the lines must be blocked somewhere, despite the fact Triple R did remove a blockage when it was there over the fall. 

I'm really running out of ideas and patience. In the two years I've owned the engine, I've only run it light a couple of days and still have yet to pull a train with it. I really don't know what to do anymore.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

My suggestion is to find someone locally who is used to running live steam to confirm your suspicions.
So, to check if steam is getting to the cylinders, when in pressure, take off the lubricator top, open the throttle VERY SLOWLY.
It should have steam and oil come bubbling out the top.
This will show that the steam is getting to the cylinders.
If nothing comes out, then you are correct, there must be a blockage in the steam line somewhere.
If steam does come out, then put the top back on and clean up the mess.
Make sure that it is in full gear, open the throttle and keep pushing the loco with drain cocks open until just steam is coming out.
By then, even with them open, it should be running.
Keep trying.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Another thought, make sure that the throttle lever is not loose on the shaft.
Often when the loco cools down the throttle will get stuck, and if the actual throttle lever is just a little loose, it will just rotate on the shaft, and of course not actually allow steam to go where it is supposed to!
I always open both throttle and blower after running before all the pressure goes to make sure this doesn't happen, and then before steaming up, I again make sure that both are free to move.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I tried running it again today. This time I was able to build up pressure no problem, the fan needed fresh batteries. I also had no problem keeping up pressure. However, it didn't seem like any steam was getting to the cylinders. I tried the steps zephyra posted and while some water came out of the drain cocks, the locomotive made no attempt to move on it's own accord. The only thing I can think of is the lines must be blocked somewhere, despite the fact Triple R did remove a blockage when it was there over the fall.
> 
> I'm really running out of ideas and patience. In the two years I've owned the engine, I've only run it light a couple of days and still have yet to pull a train with it. I really don't know what to do anymore.


I understand your frustration. I remember my first brush with live steam many years ago and how frustrating it was. I started with a Roundhouse Darjeeling which is a lot simpler to operate than the Aster Standard 5. Butane firing removes a lot of complexity although, in my experience, not as satisfying as alcohol or coal. 

With fresh batteries, I doubt the fan is a problem. The usual tactic is to use the fan to get to about 1.5 Bar pressure and then switch to the blower. It is tempting to open the blower too wide as the sound of a roaring fire is encouraging but, as David points out, too wide means you lose pressure faster than you create it. A 1/4 turn should be enough initially, then closing it as the pressure builds so that it is just cracked open when the safeties lift. You can leave it just cracked open for the first few minutes as it helps maintain the fire while you clear the cylinders.

If this was a factory build, I doubt tubes are blocked. With a kit, it is possible that the builder applied sealing compounds a little too liberally which can lead to blocked tubes. The only other fault to check for is that the smoke box is sealed. The smoke box is lined with ceramic paper secured with sealing compound. Leaks mean that air is pulled in from around the smoke box rather than over the fire which reduces its efficiency,

I would strongly recommend finding a local live steam group that can help out. That is what I did all those years ago - a helping hand worked wonders and I quickly became self sufficient. 

Robert

.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I fired up my Aster Standard 5 this afternoon. If it is any consolation, it is one of the most difficult models in my collection to get operational. My first attempts met with many of the issues you are seeing - unable to maintain pressure. I would start with the safeties lifting, but after a couple of laps of my track, pressure was down to 2 bar. Second attempt was much better but this time I had a load of 6 BR coaches in tow. Counter intuitive - no load equals not enough steam. Plenty of load seems to create enough steam to keep the pressure up for several laps.

Here's what I think is the problem. With no load the blast is not creating enough draught to keep the fire hot enough to keep up with the use of steam. With load, the engine is having to work harder and this pulls more air over the fire which allows it to keep up. When I get a little more time, I will experiment again to try to prove out this thesis. 

Robert


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I ran my 5MT this afternoon. Initial run on rollers was successful - 25 minutes uninterrupted. I did notice a couple of issues - the cylinder drains seemed to open all by themselves so you need to ensure they are really closed and the engine is very sensitive to the combo of increased workload and the injection of cold water from the use of the axle pump. Cracking the bypass valve just open seemed to work.

Out on the track, it was OK but, boy, is this a demanding engine with constant attention needed to the blower, throttle and axle pump. I ran for about 15 minutes with 4 BR heavy coaches and never really got the balance right having to stop occasionally to rebuild pressure.

Sometimes Aster gets it absolutely right. My Duchess, for example, just runs and runs. But the 5MT doesn't seem to be one of these. I will continue to experiment and report back if I have a breakthrough. 










Robert


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## Ger  (Jan 13, 2009)

no


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## Ger  (Jan 13, 2009)

goodbye


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Ger said:


> goodbye


Not sure what happened to your posts but they inspired me to do more work on the 5MT. I checked the timing and the setup of the piston valves - they were fine. I couldn't see any evidence of leaks in the smokebox but I re-lined the anyway. I changed out the wicks. I added new insulation to the firebox. 

The only issue I found was that there is a slot at the top of the firebox through which the steam pipe goes to the super-heater. Part of this slot was open which would have allowed air to be pulled through the boiler without passing over the fire. Not sure that this would have made any difference, but, in any event, I sealed it. 

Next test - sans cab - went really well. The engine ran for 20 minutes pulling five BR coaches. The throttle is super sensitive as is the case with most Asters and I have still more work to do to get it running at scale speed. The axle pump kept up but the water level needs close attention - it goes from apparently half full to empty very quickly as a result of the two large fire tubes at the bottom of the boiler. 

Not sure whether sealing the slot in the firebox was enough to make the difference or whether it was just the engine getter better with time. Nevertheless, I was pleased with the result amd promoted the 5MT to be one of the better Asters. 

Robert


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

zephyra said:


> The throttle is super sensitive as is the case with most Asters


My Reno, which I bought 'used', had a big throttle lever modification, for that same reason I guess.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

A guy in Portland made a batch of replacement throttle spindles, with a much finer point, for the early Asters (Schools, Mogul, Reno, King Arthur etc..) which worked very well in giving more throw on the lever.
Like Pete, from day one, I fitted levers to replace those horrible knobs!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> A guy in Portland made a batch of replacement throttle spindles, with a much finer point, for the early Asters (Schools, Mogul, Reno, King Arthur etc..) which worked very well in giving more throw on the lever.
> Like Pete, from day one, I fitted levers to replace those horrible knobs!
> Cheers,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


The 5MT has a lever for the throttle but less than a 1/4 turn from off to the engine running at a scale 120 mph even with 7 BR coaches. 

Robert


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> I tried running it again today. This time I was able to build up pressure no problem, the fan needed fresh batteries. I also had no problem keeping up pressure. However, it didn't seem like any steam was getting to the cylinders. I tried the steps zephyra posted and while some water came out of the drain cocks, the locomotive made no attempt to move on it's own accord. The only thing I can think of is the lines must be blocked somewhere, despite the fact Triple R did remove a blockage when it was there over the fall.
> 
> I'm really running out of ideas and patience. In the two years I've owned the engine, I've only run it light a couple of days and still have yet to pull a train with it. I really don't know what to do anymore.


You are trying to run it without any knowledge of how to do it. Here in Ontario we have lots of experienced runners and builders and a few good tracks. If you want help and are willing to cross the border for a day then please reach out.
David M-K
Ottawa


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

zephyra said:


> Not sure whether sealing the slot in the firebox was enough to make the difference or whether it was just the engine getter better with time. Nevertheless, I was pleased with the result amd promoted the 5MT to be one of the better Asters.
> 
> Robert


I continued to tune my 5MT and took a short video on an uncharacteristically damp day here in CA. It ran well - biggest issue was wheel slip - beyond 6 coaches, wheel slip was almost constant possibly as a result of the damp conditions. 






Hope this offers hope to the OP.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I'm looking into clubs in my area. I've read everything I can get my hands on and it's clearly not enough. The closest one to me is the Mud Creek Central in Lockport, NY.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I joined the Mud Creek Central in April and today I was able to run the engine there on rollers. She ran very well, going for an hour before running out of fuel. Talking to other members they believe the engine would benefit from a boiler washout.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

I ran the locomotive three times today with no issues. Seems to have been resolved. Thanks for the help and advice.


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## STrinder5475 (Jul 28, 2020)

So, I took the engine to the Western New York Gas & Steam Engine Association who are best known for their big steam rally in Alexander, NY every September. One member there is also part of the Mud Creek Central but specializes in Gauge 1. He found the seals for the Safety valves were in need of replacement, which they have now been replaced. Also he recommended a safety valve adjuster to stop the valves from lifting early. I'm awaiting mine from Accucraft now. Other than this, the engine ran fine.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

STrinder5475 said:


> a safety valve adjuster


I found that my little tweezers with pointy ends were a good fit in the safety on my Aster, and allowed me to turn it. The other, similar use is the Ronson valves, which need a split blade to turn them. I have been known to sacrifice a screwdriver and carve out a slot in the center with my Dremel.


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