# 2-10-10-2



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

[No message]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Santa Fe built them... not too successful.









[*]*Road numbers:* 3000–3009[*]*Driver diameter:* 57 in (1.4 m)[*]*Weight:* 616,000 lb (279,400 kg = 279.4 t)[*]*Tractive effort:* 111,600 lbf (496 kN)[*]*Boiler pressure:* 225 psi (1.55 MPa)[*]*Cylinder diameter:* 28 in (710 mm) high pressure, 38 in (970 mm) low pressure[*]*Cylinder stroke:* 32 in (810 mm)[/list]


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Festus, 
Yours is a Virginian Rly class AE They built 10 of 'em. 
The boilers were ok on the Virginian's slow 8 mph coal drags, but inadequate for higher Santa Fe speeds. 

John


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I do remember seeing a plan for the Virginian 2-10-10-2 in a magazine a long time ago. Pretty sure it was in Model Railroader. If you or a friend has access tp Kalmbach's magazine index you can probably find it and perhaps get a plan copy or the magazine somewhere. It was a very good looking and impressive locomotive withe its very large boiler. I believe MTH(?) was supposed to make one either in O or largescale.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, I misread what Festus asked, he wanted that specific 2-10-10-2 .... the Santa Fe was of course different, built in the Santa Fe shops. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I think either Marty Cozad or Rex Ammerman made a 10 driver loco a few years ago. 

Rex:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

also here:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/8/aft/117731/afv/topic/afpg/2/Default.aspx

He says it runs on 8 foot curves. So two together, articulated?

I would say why not just "doublehead" a few ordinary locos?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I own a Rex Ammerman 2-10-2, it will go around 8' curves but does not like it... will go around 10' just fine. 

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

I seem to remember MTH making some of those things sometime back in 1/32 scale... I did a B&O 2-10-2 "Big 6" a few 
years back, and like Greg said, it don't like 4 ft radius track at all... Its hard on wheels & track even on 5 ft if U run it 
a lot... It does perform very well otherwise however, don't think U'll see the 1/29 mfgrs bringing one out though with 
their "gotta play on 4 ft track" rule of thumb....
Paul R...


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread, or even cause the slightest disagreement... 

BUT. The greatest steam locomotive EVER built, has never been done in an inexpensive (relatively) model in ANY scale: 

It may only be a 2-8-8-2, but: 

http://www.drgw.net/photos/DRGW3605/drgw_3605_denver_co_may_1940_000.jpg 

Robert


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Festus, 

If you are SERIOUS about this then I can wade through my father collection of hand scribbled formulae in his note books and work it out for you (he was "outreach" for Beyer Peacock at Bulawayo). Going on the types of locomotive built by Das Spur II Grüppe and the Gauge '3' Society... You are going to need either Gölsdorf axles on axles 2 and 4 OR you put flangeless drivers on axles 2 and 4. Personally speaking I would go the Gölsdorf route -but the flangeless drivers would be a lot easier to construct. Your alternative is to use Krauß-Helmholz Bogies as in the Deutche Reichesbahn class 44 locos. Wether you could "fiddle" this on the small confines of a Gauge '1' loco is down to personal ability. It is certainly easily "do-able" at Gauge '3' and I have seen an '0' gauge class 44 loco (but wether it had working K-H bogies I do not know). 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Festus, 

If you are SERIOUS about this then I can wade through my father collection of hand scribbled formulae in his note books and work it out for you (he was "outreach" for Beyer Peacock at Bulawayo). Going on the types of locomotive built by Das Spur II Grüppe and the Gauge '3' Society... You are going to need either Gölsdorf axles on axles 2 and 4 OR you put flangeless drivers on axles 2 and 4. Personally speaking I would go the Gölsdorf route -but the flangeless drivers would be a lot easier to construct. Your alternative is to use Krauß-Helmholz Bogies as in the Deutche Reichesbahn class 44 locos. Wether you could "fiddle" this on the small confines of a Gauge '1' loco is down to personal ability. It is certainly easily "do-able" at Gauge '3' and I have seen an '0' gauge class 44 loco (but wether it had working K-H bogies I do not know). 

regards 

ralph


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"I don't want to hijack anyone's thread, or even cause the slightest disagreement" 

That's like saying; I don't meant to insult you, but boy are you ugly! ha ha That beast of yours had better have had Water Brakes.... wink wink. 

Festus never mentioned 'the greatest steam loco ever' he stumbled upon this beast and wanted to know more about it.... and if there has ever been a G build. 

The only model I found was done in O Scale, I believe as a 2 rail model by 3 Rail O Models/ Sunset.... don't quote me on that. 

The Santa Fe's had an articulated boiler, hence the 2 large steam pipes above the center of the boiler. If I remember correctly, the hinge led to their demise. 

Lownote; more locos meant more crews which cost the RRs money, the 'large loco evolution' paid for themselves by reducing the expense of Labor. 

Happy Rails 

John


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

The Santa Fe 2-10-10-2s were strange animals--the front section of the boiler only housed a water preheater, superheater, and smokebox.

They also had some 2-6-6-2s.

More info:

(link doesn't seem to appear properly...strange)

http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUS...mallet.htm


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The demise of the ATSF was actually not enough steam, the front boiler is actually not a boiler but superheater, also I think the firebox may not have been up to the task. 

At the risk of sounding grouchy, I completely agree with John, if you feel that saying "I don't want to hijack this thread BUT" .... DON'T! 

Start a new thread on your favorite subject, I had a product review of a beta QSI go south when people wanted to take it way off into a "mine is better thread"... so I pulled back and thus punished all the people who wanted to keep on track. 

Festus, I apologize for not reading your post carefully initially, and putting up the ATSF 2-10-10-2 ... if you want to make your loco above, just start with the Aristo Mallet, and graft on another set of drivers to the motor block, it's really not that difficult, since the Aristo drivetrain is modular to begin with. You need another motor block, like a Mikado block, then cut a couple of sections from it, and graft them into the middle of the Mallet blocks. Add the gearboxes and flywheels and you are good to go in that department, you should have enough extra siderods to make something up. 

I can shoot a closeup of how Rex did my 2-10-2 for the siderod detail... 

Regards, Greg


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

ralph, I am interested and would like you to go through your fathers collection of hand scribbled formulae in his notebooks to work it out for me. The Gölsdorf route is fine if that's what you recommend. Bring it on. I'm anxiously waiting. Do you need my e-mail? Any/all photos you may have will be helpful as well. 

I have a 2-10-something made by MTH in O scale and plan to use that for a prototype to begin with, then just double it. Festus


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

Greg, please photograph how Rex did your 2-10-2 for the siderod detail. THANKS, FESTUS


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

I would love to doubehead a pair of 4-8-4s, or 2-8-2s but can't afford to buy them, and know I'll never get anyone to donate a pair just to make the kids in my neighborhood (who frequent my layout) happy. The alternative is to build my own loco that's bigger than my 2-8-8-2. That's why I started this thread. I hope I can afford to buy the parts needed to complete this project. FESTUS


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The easiest way, as Greg said, would be to buy a single aristo mikado/consol/mallet block, which comes with wheels and siderods, and cut it into pieces. Aristo's motor blocks are modular--each axle has a gearbox and flywheel, connected to the next by a hexnut/socket, and you can cut the frame and reassemble it. it would be fairly easy to just add a single axle to each motor block on a mallet. But you'd end up with a loco no bigger than a mallet, just a mallet with four extra wheels. 

To make it bigger, you'd want to get a second mallet, and splice in pieces of the boiler shell and frame. Jerry Barnes' Challenger, for example, blended to aristo pacifics: 

http://thescrr.com/projects1.html 

I think Rex Ammerman's northerns also splice in parts of pacific/mikado boiler shells. 

If you go to the aristo forum, and go to the kitbashing section, and do some searching, you'll find lots of useful threads. It's not the easiest forum to search, but try searching for "northern." Also try searching for "paul", for Paul Rose, and look for his posts on building the B&O "big six". He ended up using aristo three axle diesel blocks and machining USAT wheels to fit. 


I think the aristo motor blocks for mikado/consol/mallet go for about $130, when you can find them. It might be that you could lengthen the mallet boiler with the right piece of PVC pipe and some squadron putty,--i've never owned a mallet, and most of my experience has involved making things smaller, not bigger


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

OK Festus. 

I need the following information. 
One: the axle spacing on ALL of the axles (both drivers and carrying wheels). 
Two: I need to know the size of the DRIVERS. 
Three: I need the scale of the model -since all the formulae are based on full size locos. 
Please provide all measurements in MILLIMETRES. 

The calculations return the radius of the curve and offsets in CHAINS and MILLIMETRES of sideplay which I will translate back to scale world for you. 

This is going to be fun! 

regards 

ralph


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## gaugeonebloke (Aug 18, 2008)

I recall seeing a live steam version in O gauge on You Tube


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, you also need the lateral motion limits of the drivers, since this would be Aristo gearboxes, it's significant. 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ermmmmm... 

OK Greg... 

At the moment I have not been informed by Festus as to HOW he wishes to construct his chassis. All I am contracted to do are the raw calculations for the loco. Festus has opted to follow my suggestion of using Gölsdorf axles on his loco. Once he has supplied me with the information that I requested I will be able to do the chord to chain calculations and the saddle frustrum arc calculation for the front steam bogie. I am going to use the classical Gölsdorf assembly of axles 1, 3, 5 with *lateral float* with 2 and 4 *fixed*. 

Speaking as a modeller, engineer and designer the easiest way to link all 5 axles is via toothed belts and sprockets with a "decorative" conrod and valve gear driven from an axle with dual motors powering axles 2 and 4. This would enable the axles required to slide laterally in the true Gölsdorf manner without the need for multiple gearboxes. In my view -a far simpler and cheaper option. I do not know the yaw torque of the Aristo Craft gearbox -but as the loco enters the curve the leading steam bogie will be subject to quite high forces. The use of belts will enable a true horn guide and horn block system that will take the yaw torque without any strain as the lever arm thus generated by the axle is small. This all traditional stuff and I could point you to herds of Gauge '1' Gauge '3' locos that operate in a similar manner. I know of a couple of LNWR "Decapods".... 

The main problem of this operation is going to be the use of "Empire" and "American" railway terms. But my English is good enough to bridge the gap I believe. 

Being a "Child of the Empire" I will produce chord calculations based on chains (1 chain is 22 yards) and radians. Americans use degrees for curves... But at the end I should be able to give Festus a design flexible enough to take 6 chain curves -as did a BR Class 9F "Spaceship". 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

(Psst, Greg, I think these British PHD's know what they're doing.)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Errrr... umm....

Ralph....

I had to re-read the thread to see where Festus "opted" to use "your" recommendation of the Goose Dork drivers. I think he has not made the final decision but wants to hear how you would do it.

I think Festus does not understand the cost issue of what you are recommending vs. using parts from Aristo locos to make it go.

"I would love to doubehead a pair of 4-8-4s, or 2-8-2s but* can't afford to buy them*, and know I'll never get anyone to donate a pair just to make the kids in my neighborhood (who frequent my layout) happy. The alternative is to build my own loco that's bigger than my 2-8-8-2. That's why I started this thread.* I hope I can afford to buy the parts* needed to complete this project. FESTUS"

Notice the part about "afford", where he states he cannot afford to buy 2 Mikados?

Now, maybe the idea is to buy the parts and machine a chassis... I do remember your last post about how much cheaper your project loco was than a store-bought one, because you were doing all the labor. (of course)

You might address Festus' issue of costs first and be sure to include what machine work and machine tools will be needed....

Anyway, you guys have fun, and if for some reason you find that kit bashing the Aristo drives is as easy as it was for the many others that have already done this successfully, including my 2-10-2, then my point I wanted to make before stands, be sure to take into account that ALL the Aristo drivers will come with lateral motion that will navigate an 8 foot diameter curve with all flanged drivers. Articulating the 2 motor blocks is all you have to do that has not already been done.

Oh, doing with the Aristo hardware only needs a razor saw and some glue.

Also, with all the drivers geared, the side rods are more for decoration, and the rod hardware can be made flexible to accommodate the 8 foot diameter curves.

I'm interested to see your actual implementation and where to buy the hardware, wheels, gearboxes, side rods, and construction techniques for the chassis and motor blocks.

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well can I suggest we start HERE: 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/welcome.html 

Please turn your attention to the column on the lower left marked KITCHEN SINK ENGINEERING. Until 3 locos ago I had neither Lathe, Mill or Pillar drill. This means that I successfully made sixteen bespoke locomotives before this on a budget of £10 per week using hand tools in the space between my cooker and the kitchen sink. This also included a live steam Steam Electric loco using a hand made home wound Gramme Ring dynamo. The laminations were hand cut from 0.5mm Grain Orientated Silicon Steel with a junior hack saw and filed to size. The information on how to build it came from a pamphlet published in 1920... Since then I have built a diesel hydraulic locomotive. As you say the syndicate is currently working on an NYC J3a. This will form the basis of the modules that will allow me to build the other 4-6-4 locos that I would like to have. The next major hurdle in locomotive design for "Kitchen Sink Engineering" will be the production of a gas turbine loco. The centrifugal impeller system will be made from plywood and carbon fibre roving stuck to it. The main problem at the moment is finding the correct size (empty) camping GAZ cylinder. The design aspects for the gas turbine date from the 1970's. 

Building a "plate frame" chassis in the English manner will be very simple for Festus. I have built an American Bar Frame chassis and to be honest it was a nightmare since the frame only had structural rigidity once the last parts had been soldered together. Cooking a floppy frame over the Wok burner to solder it together was a once only! 

What you have to remember is that I come from a totally different ethos and background. You may say "Oh, doing with the Aristo hardware only needs a razor saw and some glue" -Er yes... -but first you have to have the Aristo Craft module to saw(?) This is the fundemental difference between us. My background and education show me how to make things from raw materials -because I learned from the books of Henry Greenly and LBSC. In the era that these books were written there WERE no mass produced items. 

"I'm interested to see your actual implementation and where to buy the hardware, wheels, gearboxes, side rods, and construction techniques for the chassis and motor blocks." 

If you want a sneak preview then you simply have to look here: 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/lms10800.html 

You will need to study Section Two and Section Three. The costing are now a little out (VAT is now 20% -it was 17.5%), but it shows how for roughly £140 you can build a Gauge '3' locomotive. Picture 4 gives you the full scale (at Gauge '3' scale) and this will give you some idea as to the techniques and systems that I use. 

regards 

ralph 

Post Scriptumn: Thomas(!) This RHODESIAN PhD knows what he is doing!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A veritable cornucopia of information! I will have to read it at length. 

What is the meaning of bespoke in your context? Oh, I see, you use the British meaning which is unknown here, as in custom made. (I know you are smart enough to not to have to resort to British only definitions)... but I digress.. 

So, seeing your point, it is VERY affordable, if you desire to use a drill motor and a file to turn the wheels for example. 

Can you point me to where, if it exists, you speak of your bespoke spoked wheels (unless they are all solid disks). I would like to see how you "created" the bespoke spokes, unless it's just drilling and filing holes. 

Without going through a lot of reading right now (and I do promise to read it) if you were using track power, what materials did you make the wheels from and did you add tyres (they would be tires here) the bespoke spoked wheels?









Greg


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## Newbie94 (Jul 13, 2012)

Hi guys, trying to figure out this site, not sure if this is even written in the right place lol. But here's goes. I inherited a Bachman g scale train set a year or two ago and didn't do much to it, jus took it out of the box put it all together and discovered it did t work.. Well just recently my interest in garden railroading has spiked and I want to get into it but money is an issue and I'd probably need to get this train I have working. I hooked it all up again today, the tracks are steel I believe, they have black spots on them (appears to be corrosion but idk) when I cranked up the power, the locomotive kicked, forward, stopped and sat there. The light on the locomotive stayed on a couple seconds after it stopped, but it was very dim. What should I go about doing? I'm new to all this so break it down for me please! If needed I can try to get some pics up.. If I can even post pics in this site.. Lol. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Producing "spoked" wheels is actually very simple. I use the "applique" technique. A thin sheet of brass is painted with etch resist and dunked in Ferric Chloride until the brass not painted has been etched away (about 90 minutes). The cleaned etching is then CA'ed to a sheet of ABS and then the holes nibbled away by drill and file. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/metrovickpic29.jpg 

The section is then epoxied to a slice of steel bar. I cut a slight section into it with my lathe, but I could have used a slice of steel tube to form the tyre -which other people do. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/metrovickpic32.jpg 

The result is a "spoked wheel" -this is actually stronger than turning it from grey cast iron -as you are never quite sure if you are going to crack one of the spokes as you have to really cut through the hard layer caused by the chilling during casting. The entire assembly is then fitted with the flange -a disc of steel bolted, glued or soldered to it. This technique is again *very* old and was described in depth by LBSC in his 1952 book *"Maisie -The Words and Music"*. Mine is just a modern take on the process. I explained the process to "Amber" on another thread and she believed she could duplicate it on her slightly battered pillar drill. Producing insulated wheels is again very simple. I normally use a "shoe" of aluminium to mate the wheel to the axle, but there is no reason why a shoe could not be made of Nylon66 or Hostaform. I use the shoe technique as it is easier to tap aluminium than steel for the fixing grub screws. Thus there would be no electrical connection between the chassis and the wheels. Electrical pickup would be by "finger skis" of Phosphor Bronze to the inside of the wheel -quite a few of my friends use "stud contact" so there could also be the matching "pantograph ski". This could in theory give Festus a pickup spread across 10 axles. 

On another note I am puzzled that you do not know the word "bespoke" since it is quite widely used worldwide in the computer and electronics fields? I spent the latter half of my working life (I am now retired) designing bespoke computer systems and software for it in both Europe and the Americas. If I had used the American term "turnkey" then there would have been vast confusion -since in English a "turnkey" is the warder in prison. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 

Well at the end of my rest break -I would imagine that you would insist on DCC control. I would personally use the MERG PCBs. MERG and I parted company in the late 80's -but I still keep in contact with friends there. (I still say they should have gone the Manchester encoding route and that 19.2Khz is too low a bandwidth). I designed my own 433Mhz R/C system based on computer modems -which I sold to a Gauge 1 user... (433MHz is an EU band). 

http://www.merg.org.uk/ 

On reflection I would recommend that you read the section here as this gives a complete cost breakdown and production for a large articulated locomotive: 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/metrovick.html 

Quote: 
"This brings the total cost of the build to £187.08p over the course of 9 months OR £4.80p per week over 39 weeks..." 
Unquote: 

This is a little over three times my sons "pocket money" per week -or to put another way roughly half what my son uses (£10.50p per week) in bus fare getting too and from his school. 

regards 

ralph


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Newbie94 on 12 Jul 2012 10:15 PM 
Hi guys, trying to figure out this site, not sure if this is even written in the right place lol. But here's goes. I inherited a Bachman g scale train set a year or two ago and didn't do much to it, jus took it out of the box put it all together and discovered it did t work.. Well just recently my interest in garden railroading has spiked and I want to get into it but money is an issue and I'd probably need to get this train I have working. I hooked it all up again today, the tracks are steel I believe, they have black spots on them (appears to be corrosion but idk) when I cranked up the power, the locomotive kicked, forward, stopped and sat there. The light on the locomotive stayed on a couple seconds after it stopped, but it was very dim. What should I go about doing? I'm new to all this so break it down for me please! If needed I can try to get some pics up.. If I can even post pics in this site.. Lol. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! 
You should repost this in the "beginners" forum. The moderators will probably do it if they spot it, but if not, just repost it there and you'll get lots of replies


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, I wrote a longer response to your implied insult. 

No one uses bespoke here in the way you do, and you know it. 

If you have been in the Americas and they commonly used it in the computer science field, it was on another Earth in a parallel universe. 

Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes, the usage of the term 'bespoke' is largely confined to the British Isles and in fact caused a 'Storm in a teacup' (Or US =_ Tempest in a Teapot_) when the Savile Row Bespoke Association strongly objected to the Advertising Standards Authority ruling on the usage of the term.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nes-Savile-Row-tailors-lose-legal-battle.html

I still cherish my Dad's Bespoke Naval Dinner Jacket from Savile Row when he was a MidShipMan that will never fit me exactly but am not bespoken (married) to the word bespoke 

People often forget that more variants of 'English' are spoken outside the British Isles than in England today anyway and only the British are surprised.

Cheers,

Victor


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ralph / Greg 

"Bespoke (pronounced bee-SPOHK) is a term used in the United Kingdom and elsewhere for an individually- or custom-made product or service. Traditionally applied to custom-tailored clothing, the term has been extended to information technology, especially for software consulting services. Typically, software consulting companies offer packaged (already invented and generally applicable) software and bespoke software for client needs that can't be satisfied by packaged software. In the U.S., bespoke software is often called custom or custom-designed software". 

I worked in custom computer hardware and software development for 40 years [in the US] and never once heard the term. The VERY first time I ever heard [or saw] it used was in reference to custom building services for Gauge One steam locomotives [either electric or live steam] in BRITISH model railway publications. I have NEVER seen the term "bespoke" used in a North American model railroad magazine [unless Marc Horiwitz used it in some GardenRailways article: he does speak the King's English after all]. 

If you asked a random assortment of MLS members, I think that most would respond with "HUH???"


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow. And *some* people criticize me for going off-topic... 

Robert


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well well well.... 

I state for the record that I am not English. I am an Rhodesian -a white southern hemisphere african. English is not even my native language, it is *German* -what do mean you didn't notice a German forename and German surname(?) *There is a reason I worked for a Swiss computer company...* 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bespoke 

So, if you would like to return to the topic in hand -then can we continue? 

regards 

ralph


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee whiz, I guess I'm just one of those ignorant individuals, which picks up a dictionary after encountering an unfamiliar word or expression, and finds out what it means.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but you do not constantly pepper your posts with words you KNOW will make things harder to read.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Seriously? I understood every word, and I'm a product of the Mississippi and Alabama public school systems with a high school education. 

If you understood the word, good; if not, look it up. Please stop being offended on behalf of the people who aren't as smart as you. It's insulting to them, and the guy you're calling offensive. 

Now, can we please get back to taking about a really interesting project. I want to see that 2-10-10-2


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All unhelpful comments deleted. Back to trains.

Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, that will be more dependent on the person reading any given posted reply, and their particular life experience, cultural linguistic background, and level of education.

There are many things mentioned by various individuals posting on this forum that I've never encountered before (i.e. from around the globe, and that includes my native country being the U.S.A.). And that isn't even going into all of the acronym/initialisms/alphabetisms etc. etc. (i.e. Wikipedia - Acronym and Initialism), or the specialized jargon for railroads, electronics, computers, computer programing etc. etc.

In any instance, I surely don't feel put upon just because I have to look up something that I'm not familiar with.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Some history. 

Dr Karl Gölsdorf was an locomotive designer of the late 19th and early 20th century. He designed 63 types of locomotive for the various railway that he was head of. It was actually he who devised the first perfect method of a 5 driver axle locomotive using the system that now bears his name. 

When a loco sits on a curve the points where the wheels touch the rail form the points of a polygon. The lengths of rail shaded by the drivers form the limits of the curve that the wheel will take. Eventually as the curve tightens the wheel flanges touch the sides of the rail and the wheel derails. The flanges of the wheel thus form a chord to the track. This is called the chain chord factor. Larger driver wheels have a higher chain chord factor and thus derail easier as the curve tightens i.e they need big curves. This neatly explains why locos have small wheels for twisty tracks . 

Designs of the period of Dr Gölsdorf used a chain chord factor of 6 chains -which has become the de facto standard and is still used today. This something that a 5 axle loco could not take without either having tiny wheels or bending in the middle. 

If you visualise the polygon and were able to move the axles to PERFECTLY sit on the curve two things would have to happen. The axles would have to move laterally along their axis and the loco would have to be stable enough to correct itself when coming out of the curve. Gölsdorf did this by having axles 1, 3 and 5 spring loaded so that they could move laterally when entering the curve and then the springs would force the axle back into alignment when it came out of the the curve. Axles 2 and 4 were fixed thus providing fulcrum points for the moving axles to bear against. 

The Golwé design has all floating axles and uses the cornering moments to align the axles when entering and leaving a curve -and it bends in the middle. 

As Festus wants a Mallet configuration the next problem of design rears its head. The saddle bearing which the front bogie provides to the boiler frame is NOT flat… As the front steam bogie enters the curve, it banks, putting a pitch moment on the bearing. The way to correct this is for the saddle to be a section of a frustum (a bucket shape) which rocks on the flat surface of the boiler frame bearing prior to it sliding across. This corrects itself as the other bogie enters the curve and then the process is reversed when the loco leaves the curve. 

Those are the practical design points. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well having consulted the fount of all knowledge (P. Ransome-Wallis) I get the facts that the AE series had 1.422metre drivers and a wheelbase of 20metres. Looking at the photo it seems to show a sickle arm typical of Baker valve gear -and I cannot see any sign of die blocks or any other radial linkage that would indicate otherwise(?) Having sat down with my slide rule (yes there are some of us who still use them) and done some doodles on graph paper. If I assume that the drivers are almost flange to flange, (as they seem to be in the photo), then the formulae works out that the chord chain factor on this loco is 15 -this assumes that *none* of the axles moves laterally. This translates to a minimum curve of 15 chains radius -or 990 feet. Obviously we have to back feed the formulae to get what is for a scale model a reasonable radius i.e what do we need to take a 12 feet radius curve. 

At Scale 1 1:32 this becomes 5.8 chains (which is a good stab at 6 chains). 
At Scale 2 1:29 this becomes 5.2 chains (a bit squeaky as they say!) 
At Scale 3 1:22.6 this becomes 4.1 chains (NO!) 

So if I opt for Scale 2 and re work the formulae I get the following lateral axle movements for a 12 feet radius curve for a G1MRA wheel of 50mm diameter. These are listed from front to rear. 

Pony axle 4.73mm 
Axle One 3.2mm 
Axle Two 0.0mm 
Axle Three 2.1mm 
Axle Four 0.0mm 
Axle Five 1.8mm 

Axle Six 1.75mm 
Axle Seven 0.0mm 
Axle Eight 2.25mm 
Axle Nine 0.0mm 
Axle Ten 2.7mm 
Trailing pony axle 3.75mm 

regards 

ralph


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Are those numbers Plus and Minus values from center, or the total deviation from side to side?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The figures are for total deviation side to side. The pony axle values seem large -since the entire assembly swings laterally. Now that I have worked it out for a 12 feet radius curve at Scale 2 I have to work out the saddle frustrum. Finally the last set of calculations relate to the suspension of the wheels. As I cannot know the all up weight of the model it is going to have to be done via percentage weight per axle -this makes finding the correct compression rate for the coils a bit of a search(!) 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The saddle calculations are actually quite easy -just very boring... I have assumed that the driver axle separations are 50mm each. I have used the std Mallet layout and fitted the pivot point an axle gap from the Axle 5 (and an axle gap from Axle 6(!) Thus the distance from Axle 3 to the pivot is 150mm. If I allow a "generous" bearing surface of 30mm directly over Axle 3 then the distance from the start of the saddle to the bearing is 165mm and that of the end 135mm. We make the width of the saddle the same as the gauge (45mm) and we then taper the frustrum back to the end of the saddle (point to the pivot) and we get a width of 38mm. In effect we have slice out of a cone with a face parallel to the rail. The centre of the saddle has to be the height of the banking of the outer rail for cornering. As I don't have any figures for US curves I will have to use the BR ones -which state for a 6 chain curve taken at freight speed the super elevation is 40mm. This translates to 1.3mm at Scale 2. 

Thus at the 45mm end the saddle curvature is 0 then 22.5mm later 1.3mm high and then 22.5mm later it is again 0.... 

As three points define a circle we get a radius of 115mm for the 45mm section and a radius of 97mm for the 38mm section. 

This would not be very hard to hand file and wet sand from a suitable of material. I would use Paxolin or Nylon for this and a couple of brass strips to act as the shape formers that I would file up to... 

The next step is the chassis frame specification. Here I simply have to hope that the KS part numbers I have here in the UK match the ones in the US.... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

This the first draft of a bogie for the loco. It is as stated a plate frame chassis (they are after all the easiest!!!) While it is becoming expensive -there is *nothing* to beat brass as a medium for modelling chassis with. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/festus1.png 

I frame sits asymmetrically as there needs to be space for the pivot on the fixed section and for the leading pony axle on the swinging section. It also gives space on the frame to mount the piston assemblies. 

This is were I hope KS use the same part numbers… 

KS249 2.0 x 12 x 0.064 -this forms the sides of the chassis. Each piece will require the axle guide slots cutting into it. Four will be required. UK price £12.30p each =US$19.54c. 
KS246 0.5 x 12 x 0.064 -this forms the centre section of the hornguide. This will be cut into 0.75 inch lengths. Two will be required. UK price £3.12 each =US$4.86c. 
KS247 0.75 x 12 x 0.064 -this forms the outer sections of the hornguide. This will need to be cut into 0.75 inch lengths. Four will be required. UK price £4.65p each =US$7.24c. 
KSM35 7mm o/d x 12 inches. This forms the bearingtube of the hornguide. This will need to be cut into 5mm lengths and the excess filled flush to the hornguide face. Four will be required. UK price £2.99p each =US$4.66c 
KS250-506 6mm L angle x 12 inches. This forms the horns. This will need to be cut into 1.25 inch lengths -with the corners mitred at 45 degrees. Seven will be required. UK price £5.99p each =US$9.32c. 

The plates are held in place by 1 inch lengths of M6 threaded bar. (Shown on the drawing as black discs / rectangles). There would be a nut at the end of each length to get the plates accurately distanced. Hard Solder the M6 bar and interior nuts once this is done and then saw off the bolt heads and file flush to the plates. Bag of 25 M6 50mm nuts and bolts £2.75p =US$4.28c 

Totalling all this up: 

KS249 = US$78.16c 
KS246 = US$9.72c 
KS247 = US$28.96c 
KSM35= US$18.64c 
KS250-506 = US$65.24c 
M6 nuts+bolts =US$4.24c 

The total figure for this is US$204.96c. If this seems a lot to the US reader then I have only used the prices I have -it is probably a lot cheaper in the US... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The next step is to put wheels onto the chassis. 

Using the "Maisie" technique we slice 45mm bar into 4.5mm slices and then solder these to 50mm discs of 1.5mm steel sheet. The axles are normally Silver Steel bar chopped to length (54mm). As I normally use "Mallard Metals" for my metal stock holders I will use their prices from their online catalogue. 

P23 shows EN.1A steel 45mm round bar in twenty 4.5mm slices = £6.56p total. 
P25 shows a 12 inch sq sheet of 1.5mm steel = £8.08p total. 
P29 shows 6mm Silver Steel bar to be £6.46 total. 

Total price for wheels and axles £21.10p = US$32.81c 

Now we need to power the axles. 

16 sprocket teeth are normally regarded as the minimum number for smooth running and chains are narrower than toothed belts -but not as quiet. I normally source all my mechanicals from Technobots. 6mm chain sprockets are narrow (10mm) and will fit nicely between the plates of the chassis. I do not power axles 3 and 8 as physically there is not enough room -thus we only need 12 sprockets for the chassis and 4 sprockets for the power take off from the twin motors on each chassis. 

16 tooth sprocket is £3.36p Sixteen of them is £53.76p = US$83.60c 
2 Metres of 6mm chain is £20.34p = US$31.63 

Total price for drive chain(!) £74.10p = US$115.23c 

Now we power the loco. 

I normally use MFA motors -like most of the modellers in the EU. 

RE-385 100:1 planetary gearbox four required = £91.68p = US$142.57c 
6mm bore plastic bevel gears four sets required = £27.56p = US$42.85c 

The lateral shafts for the bevel to sprocket are made from the left over pieces of 6mm silver steel bar. 

Total cost for this section £214.44p =US$333.47 

Total running cost for the loco is *US$ 538.43c* 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok -this drawing shows how the motors power the chassis. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/festus2.png 

Ideally (I feel) there should be a "balancing" shaft between the two motors -but this down to the individual. Body work and "boiler" work is down to the builder. I would use a length of plastic drain pipe and make the body work out of 3mm marine play and then plate it with 60 thous ABS sheet. GRS sell an A2 sheet of ABS for about £14, my local B&Q sell 68mm down pipe for £8. So If I say another £100 for the remainder of the loco (dress up parts etc) then the loco could be built for £315 or US$489.62c. 

regards 

ralph


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Ran across this on the Yahoo One-20point3 forum and thought it might be of some interest and relevant to the conversation at hand. 

Dave Queener of Cumberland Model Engineering posted this on YouTube. It seems there will be follow on vids as well. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmBmyzSnWc&feature=youtu.be 

Bob C.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Since your wheels are tied together by the rods, and you can never get anything exactly perfect, I'd propose not tying the two motors together so if by chance the rods think one set should be a little more ahead or behind on this part of a rev, they're not fighting the drive components. Remember, I've talked about powering each axle with its own motor and skipping the drive connection between them altogether. Not sure how well that'd work. I figured on asking you as you're the PHD


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Fair Comment Thomas! 

The rod linkage has to be split into four sections for compensation by the chassis suspension. What I normally do in these circumstances is to use a 3mm pin to the wheel in a 4mm hole to the conrod. This normally gives enough "rattle room" for the suspension and the motion to move in harmony. Any lapping into an oval can easily be done with a needle file if the motion is found to bind at a particular point. This does make the motion purely decorative and the motion is more likely to be driven by the friction of axles 3 and 8 on the track than the wheel pins!!! 

The enlarged hole sizes in the conrods also allow the axles to slide across during cornering. The split connections on the conrods don't really have to take any pressure so they could be 2mm in 3mm holes. I have seen people "pad" the holes with drilled lengths of rubber -so that the pin sits in what is in effect a "grommet". The rubber allows damped lateral movement of the pin and stops things rattling too much -not that I would hear it (!) 

If you were to power each axle with a motor then you would have to produce ten gearboxes. The easiest way to do this is to use a worm and spur gear setup -ideally a worm and worm wheel would be perfect but the concave mating faces of the worm wheel would be prone to the ingress of grit etc... A worm and spur gear would simply throw the muck to the side. IP Engineering produce a motor module with an 1/8th inch shaft. 

http://www.ipengineering.co.uk/page61.html 

It is quite a robust little beast and I have used them on more than a few of my 16mm scale models. The wheels would require either a set of shoes (sabots) to fit them or you use a secondary set of spur gears and drive the 6mm axle from the 1/8th inch shaft. Any wheel slip would force the wheel pins hard against the conrod holes. If one motor failed then the worm gear locks the axle rigid putting a large strain on the other 4 motors in the bogie. If you could somehow get a spur gear only gearbox between the frames then *the 5 motor layout is viable option*. The only real space would be above the frames in the boiler or cab parts of the loco. I have used an all driven axle layout several times -but at 16mm scale you do have a lot more space! Alternatively you use a 1:1 bevel and a planetary gearbox grafted to the front of your motor and plug that directly onto your axle. You now have to ensure that the bevels move rigidly in relation to the lateral movement of the axle during cornering -not easy!!! 

Another problem that rears its head is powering the motors themselves. I have used four 24Volt motors in parallel -thus the "draw" on the wiring is 4Amperes. If you go for 5 motors then you have to use 6Volt motors in series or the heating effect is going to play hob(!) with your wiring... 

I (personally) feel that a bogie should have two motors -one for backup if the other dies. There are other people who do things differently -*I cannot say that they are wrong!!!* 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

With 5 motors, each one only needs to develop 1/5 the torque of the whole works, so they can be lots smaller. 


I've been imagining a tiny motor and planetary gearbox through which the axle passes. Then you just mount the package and it contains the bearings to hold the wheels.


I once tried elongating the rod holes with a needle file. Wow! What are these rods made of? Hard stuff!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/festus3.png 

This drawing contains the last parts of the chassis -the Baker valve gear and the conrods. The valve gear I would make out of 3mm wide brass strip and the conrods out of 6mm wide brass strip. The "roller bearings" are simply steel washers soldered on the right places. 

And that I think is the complete design. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

How you deal with the problem of suspension of the axles is down to personal choice. In essence there are the tension spring method and the compression method. 

In the tension spring method a spring is looped over the axle and held in place by the bolts that hold the "keeper" at the bottom of the hornguides. You do have to liberally oil the spring so that it glides over the axle but on the plus point the oil does seep into the bushes and drip onto the hornguides. 

The compressive method is slightly more sneaky... You take an eraser, (note that I have used the American word for it...) and slice triangular sections (wedge) out of it. This gives you a self damping progressive compressive spring -not only BMC "Minis" drive on rubber cone suspension (!) These are then CA'ed to the tops of the hornguides and the hornbocks rest against them. 

The tension method can be altered very easily by swapping out the spring, the compression method requires "surgery" to the rubber wedge. I personally have found that the tension system works best if you can weigh your model accurately and then work out what the springing should be on each axle. The compressive method is more a tune as you go method. The tension method seems to work best on smooth trackwork as there is the chance you will cause the springs to "ring" and derail. The compressive method seems to give a more "relaxed" ride to the loco. 

I have used both and in fact have one loco where I use both methods on it! In the NER EE-1 I have tension sprung bogie axles and rubber compressive driver axles. 

i hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have enjoyed producing it. The design can be adapted for x-6-6-x very easily -thus giving you a chassis for the majority of US style Mallet locomotives. 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 19 Jul 2012 07:02 AM 

i hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have enjoyed producing it. The design can be adapted for x-6-6-x very easily -thus giving you a chassis for the majority of US style Mallet locomotives. 

regards 

ralph 
But this CAN'T be over. Now you're going to build it?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

No Thomas. 

This is a Gauge 1 model at Scale 2 size and I don't have any Gauge 1 track(!) However I have edited and uploaded this thread to my web site and it may be found in the section "Kitchen Sink Engineering" under "Part 12 Bespoke Design". This will enable more people to find the information easily rather than having to trawl through the threads here. If anyone has any questions then please ask them -but it is up to Festus to take the design and to run with it now. The Design and Technology aspect of the work has been done and I think that I have a good build price for my "customer".... 

regards 

ralph


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus

Maybe you'll find the following of some use.









 Virginian 2-10-10-2 ALCO c. 1918 (PDF 762KB)[/b]


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