# MTH & ARISTO



## COFFEEBREAK (Jul 27, 2009)

Do MTH DCS and Aristo Craft Rev play well together on the same track?

Ed


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Good question: Both are proprietary systems. I think if the REV was under track power as well as the DCS all would be okay. Because one is receiving signals from the rails and the other from the air.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

I will add that to my list of things to try. I have all the components needed, just need to put them on the same track. I will use a Bridgewerks power supply instead of Aristo, MTH does not like switchable power supplies. I have run MTH and R/C Battery on same track, no problems, would not expect any..............Jim


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## COFFEEBREAK (Jul 27, 2009)

I use a bridgewerks power supply,that would supply the MTH & non MTH engines but run thru thr AC rev to the non engine
What you think Greg?
Ed

J Milll when you try please let me know the outcome thanks 

Truthman That's the consentious over on the AC fourm But could be colored by brand lotality?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if you are talking track power to a new Aristo Revo system (I will make that assumption), the Revo system is very sensitive to electrical noise... by virtue of the requirement by Aristo to use the extra capacitor bank for track power setup. 

Not sure if the high frequency bursts of the MTH carrier-wave system will confuse the Revo, my guess is that it would not. (It's not clear yet why the Revo has such a problem with track power, but it does).

If the MTH system did interfere with the Revo, a simple filter on the track pickups (of the Revo locos) would solve the problem I am sure. It's easy to filter out the DCS commands. 

Be sure to start with the Revo capacitor board in the Revo locos.

Regards, Greg 

p.s. see my site for the size of the Revo capacitor board, it's about 1/2 the size of the transmitter! You DO need to plan ahead for it.

http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...olution-te


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That cap board is really preposterous. The 75 mhz system worked really well without it: QSi boards work fine without it. They have caps on them, but nothing like that. I'm also puzzled about why you need the cap board, but there it is. It's pretty clear the Revo was designed with battery in mind. Maybe they will find a work around--a software fix, or maybe "supercaps" that cost more but are physically smaller. All those caps ought to be filtering out a lot of noise


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Revo was not tested under "real" conditions, not in the lab, and not in the "beta test". This sensitivity to picking up power from the rails (and made more embarassing by the highly touted Aristo power pickup system) is where DCC was 20 years ago. 










This kind of filtering should be more effective on short term power dropouts, not electrical "hash", but I'd have to analyze first to be sure. 

There's no excuse for this type of operation with modern microprocessors. "Beyond DCC?" Nope. 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Run your REVO on batteries, and your MTH and REVO systems will be completely independant and won't bother each other.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It just would not be a forum if someone did not want to suggest batteries on a track power thread. 

I'm glad we can count on you Tom!









Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I'm hoping to try MTH and Airwire/QSI on the same line if I can get my hands on a used SHAY c/w QSI installed.........

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Why not buy a QSI, and then try it in an inexpensive Aristo to prove out how you like it. You might not like the AirWire, the horn and whistle can be a bit erratic. 

I noticed this on both the NCE and the T9000 throttles, and many people have commented on it. (has to do with trying to use straight DCC over the air). 

I was not up to doing the install on mine, no time... 

Regards, Greg


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Well Tom, you may be right, run Revo battery with MTH ! I have done it with no problems. Tonight I tried a track powered Revo on the same track as MTH DCS. Test is not conclusive since I had poor signal strength to my MTH GG1 before I set a Revo controlled AC E8 on the track. One thing for sure the E8 affected the MTH signal, poor signal went to no signal. I got the two to run together for a little while but I would lose control of the GG1.......Run away! The Revo ran fine. I was powering the track with a Bridgewerks 20amp/30 volt (set at 22 volts) and the E8 had Revo with Cap board and Phoenix sound. I will try it again when DCS signal is stronger. I'm new to DCS and still putzing around with light bulbs and wiring. It is great when it is working !............Jim


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not have the newer REVO system. I have used the older 72 mhz on board train engineer in an SD45 with track power for years and years - with DCS the whole time. I have never, not once, noticed that the system was bothered or interfered with by the DCS signal. I would be interested to know how the new system operates. From what I have read, I don't see how it is possible that it would be affected. 

John


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By John Allman on 28 Jul 2009 07:41 PM 
I do not have the newer REVO system. I have used the older 72 mhz on board train engineer in an SD45 with track power for years and years - with DCS the whole time. I have never, not once, noticed that the system was bothered or interfered with by the DCS signal. I would be interested to know how the new system operates. From what I have read, I don't see how it is possible that it would be affected. 

John Interesting ... 

I need to know more. DCS is essential as it offers so much however I need other DCC type or RC control as MTH does not offer scope and mix on locos and generations. I plan to experiment with Airwire / QSI. I feel that there is room for both on the same track. 

This Revo system ... AC or DC constant supply and what compatible voltage? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Try putting some filtering on the track pickup leads, like inductors so nothing gets out from the Revo, and the revo cap board does not try to suck down the MTH signal. 

Regards, Greg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing is AC. MTH's system can use AC, but that is not required. So as not to burn out something you dont mean to burn out, forget AC. Aristo's system can use track power or battery. I set my track at 18v on the rail as measured by the DCS locomotive on the track. (so that the lights in the passenger cars are not overheated, not because the locomotives care) I can then run all my DCS engines and my Aristo train engineer driven locos simultaneously. The DCS signal is not degraded at all, and the Train Engineer is not effected by DCS. I can also then vary the voltage from the throttle and run some friends analog locomotives too. The system is completely flexible that way. 

Like I said, I can not understand from what I have read - which may well not be enough and therefore not mean anything - why there should be any interference or interaction between DCS and Aristo's Revo system. There absolutely is not with both previous versions of the TE.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, when you said you run the Aristo TE, are you talking the new Revolution TE and pulling track power for it also?

I think we are talking the Revo TE here..

Regards, Greg


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Gentlemen, next I intend to setup 6 foot of track on work bench. Run MTH GG1 on rollers and test signal strength. Sould get a perfect 10. Next, add AC E8 with REVO and CAP board on rollers and check MTH signal to see if there is any change. Will also check for other erratic functioning...............Jim


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I only run the 2nd generation 72mhz version - which is why I said "from what I have read" I cant see how the REVO would be affected by DCS or how it would effect DCS. 
I await Jim's test. It may well prove illuminating.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

John, there are two major differences with the new REVO. One, the use of CAP board. Two, the REVO output current is PWC. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I assume both these items could generate track noise.........Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bingo! 

The Revolution TE is very different, it has a sensitivity to electrical noise above anything ever conceived for DCC (there, I did find one aspect beyond DCC).... seriously, you have to put this huge capacitor bank on it to get it to run right on track power, and even on very clean track, this is documented on the Aristo forum, one person even had problems on a 5' section of SS rail on a bench, meticulously cleaned and wheels of loco too.

There's something weird here, so being able to "filter away" the DCS signals with the capacitor bank, or something else in the TE is not a unreasonable hypothesis.


I would like to see the test with a layout functioning perfectly with DCS first, on filtered DC, and good signal strength everythere... then put the E8 on the rails, and leave the decoder unplugged... then plug it in, then try to run.


I think the "culprit" will be easy to find that way. 


Regards, Greg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

the cap board may or may not affect the DCS signal. It mostly likely will weaken it somewhat, but it is also possible it would actually help by supressing any reflected signals. The PWC is not a factor of any kind. I still have not seen any technical data that could confirm it either way - so I await the outcome of the experiments. 

I was about to sell my 72 mhz onboard TE system. Perhaps I shall hold off.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, hard to tell the effect of the cap board, it's across the rails, so it really depends on the ESR at the DCS frequency. 

Aristo has had cases of generating electrical noise, like their onboard PWM voltage regulators (for lighting) that make R/C systems crazy. 

Will have to see results, I agree. 

What are you thinking of buying John? 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I really have a hard time understanding the attraction of the REVO is you're using track power. You need that honkin' big cap board, and then you also need to buy a sound decoder, and wire it up, and it's not clear to me if you need some kind of accessory switch or not. You'll have a rat's nest of wires, a lot of boards crammed in and a lot of (in my opinion) needless complexity. Compare to QSI, where you drop the decoder in, hook up the speaker, and you're off. This is why I held off on the REVO--how does it work in practice? Apparently it's very good with batteries and works fine with track power once you add the big cap board.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg - I have a shay and SD 45 that have onboard 72 mhz TEs. I never run the dismal anymore (except to charge the phoenix battery) and so if the REVO system was worth it, I might have used it to replace the system in the Shay. But there is no room for a cap board, so that is out. 

I will sell the SD 45 anyway (want it, its cheap -I mean cheap) but I use the shay enough that I wont bother with it. The fun thing that I can do is let my son run one MTH engine, I run another and Mom runs her favorite Shay - and nobody interferes with each other despite the technology being decades (and generations) apart.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

or the SD45?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks John... the new TE is a very low cost system unless you go sound, then it's as expensive or more expensive than other systems unless you buy a very cheap sound unit. I have one here I am evaluating. On track power, you have to use a capacitor bank that's over 5" long and half as wide as the remote! 

Interesting sidelights to the new product. 

If your 75 MHz works well and you are not adding sound, I'd say you are not looking at an upgrade with the new system. 

Regards, Greg


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## COFFEEBREAK (Jul 27, 2009)

Greg and anyone else who wants to, What I have now is the MTH system and 8 of their engines. I have about 40 other engines about
75 percent Aristo. I use brass track, DC track power18V, Bridgewerks, required by MTH. All this will remain . I have 3 hi hood SD-45 that at this timeI would liketo run on the same track,at the same time, as my MTH. I am trying to find a control system to allow me to do this no sound on the SDs
What system would you recomend , that is reliable and wouldn't break the "old' bank account. I would like to add some other engines later.
I now run on 3 separate loops, with 2 power supplys. I would lke to change to 1 big loop. My layout is built in pcs and can be taken apart and reacembled in another location.

Ed


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## Jerryj (Jul 29, 2008)

I am glad I when with QSI, G-wire and the new NCE throttle they all work great together. I try ed the throttle from second floor bedroom works great.
The only problem I had was the horn off had to change the off packet form 2 to4 and that that was quick to do not like air-wire. As for AC and 3 years of planning and no sound card can not use QSI cards and all the add on to me it is still behind time even Lionel TMCC has less add ons for retro fits and I don't need to be attacked like Greg is on AC just my input. And I run track or battery

Thank You Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are not going to run sound, you can make the new TE system work, and it would be the most cost effective. If you want sound, then I would go as Jerry says, the QSI and the NCE throttle work very well. I have all this equipment here at my house right now and am writing up a long comparison article. 

Personally, for the few bucks saved in the non-sound application, it worries me to run a system that needs a huge capacitor bank to run from track power. There's something wrong internally there that needs to be fixed. The capacitor bank is a band-aid that would worry me. It is very inexpensive as a system, I will grant you that. It's just that there were some major things that never got fixed on the older Aristo TE systems, so I would make me feel that the problem that is "band-aided" with the capacitor bank might exist for another 10 years! 

The QSI and the AirWire and the NCE people are constantly looking at improving things, and the facts that there are updates and upgrades is proof of this. 

Regards, Greg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

by an old 75mhz system. Open the SD 45 an plug it in. Total install time, 5 minutes. they can be found occassionally on ebay, and would be way less than a new system.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, cost effective. If you go to a new system, plug in a QSI, about 5-10 minute install (you might have to connect the speaker wires!), and now you have sound too! 

Really easy. 

Regards, Greg


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## COFFEEBREAK (Jul 27, 2009)

With the old system my only question is how long will I be able to find the receivers for the additonal engines I want to add????? no way to know
Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the rub! And there's no repairs, if they go pftttt, then they go in the trash. 

Buy spares now, it seems that there's a number available as people go to the new Revo. 

Regards, Greg


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

My son from Atlanta was stopping in today so I got up early to clean the track so I could demo the MTH stuff. The Triplex ran flawlessly so I think I'll keep it. Every command worked without a "Check Track" readout. Now I place an Aristo E8 equiped with REVO and Phoenix sound on the same track. Turn on Bridgewerks power, turn on MTH controller, press startup key, Triplex comes to life. Every command to the triplex is accepted with no "Check Track". Now I start the REVO throttle and apply power. At this point the triplex is still running. I go back to the triplex control and now I'm getting "check Track", whistle will not blow all the time, bell rings without giving bell command, sound shuts off and then on. Now while the triplex is on a nervous break down auto pilot I go back to the E8 and find no problems The REVO was not affected by commands issued to MTH Triplex. Only run these two systems together if you like surprises.............Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. try the MTH in tethered mode, to rule out interference on the air... 
2. pull the TE and put the shorting plug back in and see if it makes a difference. 

Like I said originally, you may have to put filters on the power leads on the E8 in the case that the TE is causing problems. 

Regards, Greg


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