# Kadee or USAT knuckle couplers



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I've decided to use body-mounted, knuckle couplers. To that end, I've bought a couple of AristoCraft freight cars with Kadees installed in order to get ideas for installation. However, all my Aristo and USAT cars and locos also come with knuckles. Why buy Kadees when the manufacturers are providing knuckles? But, they are truck-mounted. Do you guys have any suggestions for installing these manufacturer knuckles as body-mounts? There must be links which describe how to , but I haven't found any yet.
Thanks. Ken S.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken;

Just an observation, then I will leave it to you to decide. Many of the proprietary knuckle couplers (USA, Bachmann, Lionel LS [the track-powered - not the battery] , and the now-extinct Delton line) were originally designed to work with the LGB manual uncoupling blocks. The couplers were mounted very low - almost below the rail heads - to facilitate uncoupling with the LGB uncoupler. This meant that other "stuff" might also uncouple your train outdoors: acorns, the pebbles that got kicked between the rails from a border or garden path, twigs of sufficient diameter, those very small pine cones, etc. You get the idea.

Some of Bachman's equipment now offers a higher coupler mount. Just ignore the scale differences, this Bachmann Davenport couples nicely to a USA beer can tanker with Kadees.










It is the "surprise uncoupling" factor that made me decide to convert my equipment (slowly) to Kadees. You may experience different "milage."

Hope this helps,
David Meashey


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I install Kadee couplers on almost everything I run. 

Why? 

1. They couple together extremely easy. Most other brands, especially Aristo Craft, has to be slammed together to couple two cars. 
2. Kadees come in three offsets. Straight, Medium and Large offset. They also come in various mounting styles. 
3. They almost never come uncoupled while the train is in motion.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I install Kadee couplers on all my rolling stock. 


I install them for all the reasons above.


All my kadee's are body mount.

I run long trains......Body mounting allows me to back up a 35 to 50 car train around curves and through switches the full length of the train.

Like this one at Marty's It is a 38 car train with Kadee 830 body mount couplers 













When you back up a train that has Truck mounted couplers the stress of each car is on the trucks.

This causes them to jump track and or Derail. 

JJ


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

I also standardize on Kaydees, set to their height gauge. Never a problem. 
If you are just starting, check out the new 900 series, quite an improvement in appearance from the original-- hey are, naturally, compatible with the original. 

Larry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kadees for me, for several reasons, mostly like the above.

I have several pages on couplers, read this one, and then notice the other pages below on Aristo couplers, Kadees and more. (The RED item in the menu on the left is "where you are")

*http://elmassian.com/trains/couplers*

Greg


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

OP clarification here. I will do body mounted knuckles. My limited experience with hook and loop is that they are great on sharp curves, stay coupled throughout a hurricane, and even back up just fine with the short, 7 or 8 unit trains I am running. But they are troublesome because they hang so low they just don't look good. The question is, what's wrong with USAT and AristoCraft if I body mount them? Research today shows me that there are coupler boxes I can buy without couplers. Why not simply install the USAT and AC ones in those boxes, mounted to the body? I assume the boxes will hold the various manufacturers couplers. Yes? 
Ken S.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

To me, the biggest problem is they do not couple easily. You have to slam the two cars together. 

Also, the knuckle couplers made by Aristo Craft and USA are made to be attached to the trucks, not the body. 

You will have to fabricate the mounts to attach the Aristo Craft and USA couplers. 

Most Aristo Craft and USA couplers do not have swiveling heads like the Kadees.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ken 

Short answer to the Q on coupler boxes.... NO and NOT A CHANCE. Unlike HO, there is very little standardization in large scale [1:29] in regard to couplers, coupler height, draft gear [the coupler shank and box] or interchangeability. Kevin S may jump in and say that "they work together", but my experience is..not very well. USA Trains cars [mostly], are designed to have a Kadee 830/930/906 box and coupler directly body mounted. Not sure about Aristo.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just being able to mount the coupler to the body does not do the same as a draft gear box, and in the case of the Kadee one specifically for body mounting, the "slack action" of the coupler in and out of the gear box. 

Aristo couplers wear out over time and come loose on their own, and as Randy stated often have to be slammed together to couple. 

USAT couplers are less problematic, but in my opinion, need a more slippery plastic and harder to body mount and need lubrication on occasion... Better overall choice than Aristo in my opinion, although each has it's pro's and con's. 

Also it's impossible to beat the broad product line of Kadee to have mounts that make it simple and easy to mount on many different cars and locos. 

You can sell your old Aristo couplers to Aristo "devotees"... and same (to a lesser degree) with the USAT ones, to help defray the cost of the Kadees 


Greg


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

If you don't have a lot of cars, switch to Kadees ASAP. Body mounting them will be a lot faster and more satisfying than trying to figure out a way to reuse the USAT couplers. And DO buy a Kadee height gauge. Since there are so many different scales in Large Scale, mounting the couplers at the same height will help with coupler reliability. 

And, if you're as compulsive (I almost said anal) as I am, use No.1's not G gauge, as the G's are too large. So are the No.1's but not so much


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

For me, almost all of my couplers are at body mount height. In 1:22.5/24 and 1:29 I use both Kadee and USAt. It all depends upon the car. If there is a pad, like on USA ultimate cars I will use a Kadee 830 (gauge G). I think there were pads on some AristoCraft 2- bay hoppers I recently acquired. I'm afraid of plastic blood, so if a car requires surgery to body mount couplers I will use a step up coupler on the truck. Most of the time I will use the Kadee 831. Occasionally I will use a USAt step up coupler. I bought some many years ago and when I find where I put them I'll use them. I have successfully raised the straight shank USAt couplers by mounting them on the top of the truck tongue. This required shortening the tongue so that the coupler would lay flat on the top. This mates well with the body mounts and the 831 step ups. If I get a chance, before heading east next week ill take some pictures of my coupler options. I have never had any problems with Kadee and USAt knuckles mating.

I cannot see an easy way or reason to attempt to body mount USAt couplers. I guess that you could drill a hole into the floor of the car and add washers or a spacer to lower the coupler to the correct height and keep it parallel with the car floor and track. Then you will have to come up with something to center the coupler.

One last comment. I rarely backup my trains, so some truck mounted couplers are not a problem for me (most of the time).

Chuck


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Did anyone ever comment on how great this forum is? So much useful information for us ignorant folk. Based on all the comments in this thread, I've put in an order for Kadee 830s for my USAT freight cars and will see how they fit on some AC covered hoppers that are in the mail as I type this. My 2 USAT Geeps look like they'll need some plastic surgery to make body mounts fit, though. Any suggestions on those? 
Ken S.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ken, 
I think you should look at Greg E's site. Ted D. has done a series of installs and should be of help. I don't know if your specific loco is covered. 
I suggest Greg's site only because our search feature doesn't. Ted has aloso posted them here. 

On my smaller scale trains there was a lot of shifting cars and set outs. Outside I find my interests are different and sitting back and watching is plenty of activity. I mention this only as my excuse to stick with the Aristo's. Mine have stiffened with age and are a bugger to get open, I accept that as a way to keep a train whole.... My real problem with Aristo's is the short screw used to mount them. On derails I've pulled plenty of couplers off the tang because they never opened as the cars tumbled to their sides. 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:


On some of my USAt engines I can use the 831s (F3A and B) I found the USAt step up knuckle better for my SD40 and SD70 MAC. No surgery was required for either of those. I do not have any of the GEEPs so I really can't be of specific help there. My USAt GG1 I have left with the lower level truck mounted couplers. The couplers on my PRR passenger cars are at that level. If I want to pull a freight with it, I have a PRR reefer with low truck mounted coupler on one end and a body mount on the other. There are some engines that are just not suited for the higher level and the GG1 is one of them.

Chuck


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

I could be wrong but, didn't Marty come up with a way to body mount Aristo couplers at some point many moons ago? I know that the 'search' function here isn't great, but Marty himself might shed some light on this. 


-Kevin.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

My first batch of Kadee 830 has arrived and some have been installed on my USAT 40' boxcars. I notice that on my 8' diameter curves that the truck swing is maxed out, and the flanges rub against the coupler box. Is there a different Kadee that mounts to these cars but has a slimmer coupler box? Thanks. Ken S. 
PS I'm now one year into LS, and I'm wondering how much longer I can still use the "Beginners" forum and still be considered a beginner.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken, some people will cut a small bevel off each side of the coupler box. Turn the car over and swing the trucks and see where the wheels touch the box start your cut a little further back in the box. This does not effect the coupler itself. There is no rule that I know about regarding how long you can stay in the beginners forum. I would guess that when you are answering more questions than you ask it might be time to move to more specific forums. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You mean you weren't here on Diploma Day? Oh No! Another year I guess. 

I kid. 

Installing KayDees no longer qualifies as a beginners topic and should be kept in the proper forum if these answers are to help the next Sophmore..... Gotta help 'search' all we can. 

John


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