# PLEASE HELP!!



## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

IM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE BEST SCALE WOULD BE FOR ME. I LOVE THE D&RGW, ESPECIALLY THE K-27'S AND K-28'S. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT A GOOD SCALE WOULD BE FOR AN INDOOR LAYOUT...I'VE HEARD OF HON3 AND ON30 BUT I DONT REALLY KNOW THE PHYSICAL SIZES OF THOSE SCALES....MY DAD HAS AN HO LAYOUT BUT IT SUX B/C THEY DONT MAKE THOSE KOOL ENGINES FOR HO SCALE...SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME!!!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

First of all this really depends on wether you are going to build or buy your equipment -locos and rolling stock etc. I would recommend that you stick to one of the "semi commercial" scales such as ON30 -which is 7mm to the foot running on 16.5mm gauge track. I use 16mm to the foot on 32mm gauge track -the very "English" SM32... 

regards 

ralph


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

thanks ralph, do you know of any good commercial dealers that sell the k-27's or k-28's?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends, how much space are we talking about? 

I run indoors G scale, but dont run K-27's but there are some who do, but they are in some very large spaces of course .


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Just figured out that Mr bucknutdave lives in USA - my advice is therefore irrelevant. 

tac


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

MMI makes a K28 in brass in On30 and On3. Bachman makes a K27 in their Blackhawk HO plastic line. There is a lot of HOn3 available in HO ready to run. I have bought some brass K's on e-bay for HOn3 at reasonable prices. Micro Trains has started making very detailed DRGW rolling stock in HOn3 also. You didn't say how much room you have, but the 20.3 K 27 and larger takes at least a 16 foot (8 foot radius) curves to run and look good. If you are planning a outdoor layout in the future, I wood start with 20.3 and build a switching layout for now and start buying loco's, rolling stock and track for you future RR outside. You could also start building structures for it also. This is easier on the budget than trying to buy every thing all at once. 
Hope this helps 
Rodney


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm going to be the voice of negativism here and suggest you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Narrow gauge mainline (meaning mainly D&RGW in the US) operation, limited room, and especially a limited budget simply do not work well together in my expereince. 

HOn3 - I started playing in HOn3 years ago, and have some beautiful models, but they have never run well. I never had the time or money it would take to make them run the way a comparable HO, or even N scale steamer would right out of the box and for half the price. There are plenty of K-27/28/36/37 models in HOn3 (probably as many or more than any other scale), but they're all going to be brass. That may mean painting them yourself, or re-working the mechanism, or spending a small fortune, or all of the above. 

On30 - You'll be able to use all the HO mechanisms, and make some beautiful models. If you want a mudhen, you're going to have to kitbask it or buy a limited run engine, which I seem to recall were going for upwards of $400. If you just want narrow gauge in general indoors, I'd say it's the perfect scale. If you're willing to scratchbuild or kitbash, thet again I'd say it's the perfect scale. But if you want RTR, accurate 3' gauge models, look elsewhere... 

1:20.3 - There are some truly stunning models in this scale. The biggest negatives here are cost and size. These things are huge. A typical indoor layout that would do a Fn3 mudhen justice would be little more than a loop of trach around the walls. That's okay, though, because it'll help keep you from breaking the bank filling a room the way you can (and probably will) in smaller scales. 

My advice would be to figure out what you really want, and what you are able and willing to spend, in time, space, and money. Then you can make a more informed decision about which scale you get into. Remember, there's nothign wrong with working in multiple scales, or changing from one to the other. If you have any clubs nearby, it would be a good idea to at least visit. Same goes for a good hobby shop. I have yet to meet a model railroader (or any railroader, for that matter) who doesn't like to voice his opinions to anyone who will listen. 

It seems odd, doesn't it, that the most popular locomotives (K series) on the most popular single narrow gauge railroad (Rio Grande) would be so poorly represented across all the scales, and so expensive? For what it's worth, that's the biggest part of why I quit modelling Colorado narrow gauge. I find it's a lot more fun to work in a larger scale on a smaller prototype - cheaper, easier, and more unique. 

Whatever you do, remember to ask questions and always enjoy yourself! Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done, but listen to the people who suggest it might not be a good idea sometimes - then prove them wrong, if you like!


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

thank you so much ken, that has been the best advice i have recieved in a long time about model railroading. and you hit the nail on the head about the D&RG. again, thank you so much.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

MMI (Mountain Models Imports) has an On30 scale K27 for around $300, 
which IMO is a very good price.. 

http://www.staubintrains.com/trainshop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=595&cat=K%2D27 

and On30 is a great scale for an indoor layout..especially for a Colorado 3-foot layout.. 
(yes, On30, if you dont regauge, is *2 and half foot* gauge, not 3-foot gauge) 
but tons of people are modeling 3-footers in On30.. 

If you are a purist, you can also find quite a bit in correct On3 scale.. 
however a lot of future offerings might only be available in On30 (such as Bachman locos and rolling stock) so you would have to re-gauge a lot from On30 to On3..which is doable if you want correct On3.. 

a lot of people just stick with On30, and dont regauge, just because its easier. 

Scot


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 08/04/2008 12:02 PM

1:20.3 - There are some truly stunning models in this scale. The biggest negatives here are cost and size. These things are huge. A typical indoor layout that would do a Fn3 mudhen justice would be little more than a loop of trach around the walls. That's okay, though, because it'll help keep you from breaking the bank filling a room the way you can (and probably will) in smaller scales. 
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I found your post to be excellent and restrained both in content and tone. 

It did give me pause. I have yet to put track down, but I want to run Fn3 indoors. Moreover, I wanted Fn2, for dual gauge and a sawmill site, and 'S'n2 (in 20.3 scale--I don't know the correct nomenclature for S gauge @ 20.3 scale)--for a mine. All gauges will be PP. All this in a U-shaped space approx 12' across x 22' for each leg. U shaped. However, I wish to model a ca 1875 backwoods SL and I intend to do my own scratchbuilding and tracklaying--wood and strap-iron with spur switches. I also intend to limit the Fn3 engines (and probably the others) to 0-4-0T's and all cars will be two-axle on tight radii. I like F scale because of my age and eyesight. I'm a retired tool and die maker; building the rolling stock doesn't pose an insuperable challenge. 

After reading your thoughts, I'm forced to wonder if the Fn3 will work, given each 'leg' of the 'U' will be something under 48"W due to an aisle. I realize that's cramped, but I'm not so much a runner as a switcher. I would however, like to hear your thoughts if you care to reply. 

Les Whitaker


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2008)

a U-shaped space approx 12' across x 22' for each leg.

if you use R1 curves, you need about four and a half foot for a circle. let us suppose, four and three quarter. so both legs would be nine and a half foot together. leaves you an access of two and a half foot wide. 
farther from the endloops, nearer to the "bottom" of the U you can make the tables less wide, to have more moving space. 
i don't see, why that should not work.


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

so im just a bit confused but things i've read and seen, can you run On30 engines and rolling stock on HO scale track? i dont have a lot of room to work with inside so im leaning to the On30 and building a rectangular yard layout for now until i move into a bigger place.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Yes you can run On30 stock on HO track. 

The main difference between HO and On30 track will be the tie spacing. 

At a guess, the NMRA gauge for HO and On30 (excluding clearances as On30 a physically bigger) should be the same.


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

i've been trying to find video that shows the difference in size of how much bigger if at all are the engines and rolling stock of On30 than those of the HO scale, but havent had much luck. is there much of a difference in size?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Kormsen, 

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for your reply. I hope to use less than R1 radii in the tight spots. No loops, no Wyes, just turntables where and if needed. My thinking was that if I kept the cars & engines relatively short-wheelbased, everything should work out fine in Fn3. The other gauges, no problem. 

Les


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

On the question of size comparison HO vs On30 ... 

HO is approximately 1/2 the scale of O but the size comparison is standard gauge to narrow gauge. Comparing linear dims, ng is typically about 70-80% the size of sg OR 50-65% in areas like car sides OR 35-45% in volumes. In other words, if you mixed HO and On30 together, the On30 rolling stock would look way too big - about 1.5x too large for the HO comparison. 

If you use HO track for HO scale, normal centre to centre spacing is 2 inches (or a bit less) ... if you use HO track for On30, normal track centreline spacing is about 2 and a quarter to 2 and a half inches. 

Regards ... Doug


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

would a 2ft x 6ft layout be sufficent for On30 for just a nice little yard layout with some switches? im thinking of using HO track since i already have a lot, i was going to buy one of the bachmann 2 truck shays(colorado mining) as well as maybe two box cars and two ore cars...with that said would 2x6 still be a enough room to move that kind of stock around smoothly?


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Les on 08/04/2008 8:25 PM 
I found your post to be excellent and restrained both in content and tone. 

-snip- 

After reading your thoughts, I'm forced to wonder if the Fn3 will work, given each 'leg' of the 'U' will be something under 48"W due to an aisle. I realize that's cramped, but I'm not so much a runner as a switcher. I would however, like to hear your thoughts if you care to reply. 

Les Whitaker


Thanks for the compliment, Les. 

Given your space and choice of prototype, I'd say that Fn3 (and Fn18 - 1:20.3 on S track) would be a perfect choice. I think you'll find that you can pack a lot of operation onto a relatively narrow shelf. The two limiting factors are the curve radius - not a problem for you if you limit yourself to 2 axle equipment - and car length - again not a problem for you because 2 axle cars are nice and short. 

If you haven't seen it already, you really should have a look at Carl Arendt's excellent website about micro layouts. http://carendt.us/index.html 

Even though you're far from working on a micro sized layout, you should be able to get some excellent ideas on packing a lot of fun into a tight space.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By bucknutdave on 08/05/2008 7:20 AM
would a 2ft x 6ft layout be sufficent for On30 for just a nice little yard layout with some switches? im thinking of using HO track since i already have a lot, i was going to buy one of the bachmann 2 truck shays(colorado mining) as well as maybe two box cars and two ore cars...with that said would 2x6 still be a enough room to move that kind of stock around smoothly?




Dave, 

See the site I mentioned in my post above. Yes, 2x6 can give you plenty to do in On30. If you have the space, another good option might be a small switching layout a little longer and narrower - I built a very nice one  in HO scale, 1'x8'. 










The biggest problem you'll find for a yard is the need for some sort of switching lead. Ideally, this should be as long as your longest yard track, plus an engine. As the equipment gets longer (from a larger scale or a later era), either you have to lengthen the yard or handle fewer cars. You may find it more apealing to model a small industry (a sawmill or mine come to mind) instead of a yard. Again, the site above has a lot of good ideas to draw inspiration from.


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

I JUST WANTED TO TAKE THE TIME THANK EVERYONE FOR THE THEIR HELP!


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By bucknutdave on 08/04/2008 11:15 PM
i've been trying to find video that shows the difference in size of how much bigger if at all are the engines and rolling stock of On30 than those of the HO scale, but havent had much luck. is there much of a difference in size? 





As Dougald mentioned, On30 equipment is about 1.5x the size of HO. That can be a bit deceptive, though, because a typical On30 boxcar would probably be a scale 30' long, or 7.5". A typical HO scale boxcar would probably be a scale 50' long, or 6.9". So while the equipment will be a full 1.5x as wide, it is almost the same length. That makes it relatively easy to convert an HO track plan to On30 simply by widening the track spacing. For this reason, the two will generally fit in almost the same space, and give the same operational possibilities. 

On30 and HO are made to run on the same track, and people frequently use an HO mechanism, HO track, etc. in On30 with good results. I believe Bob Hayden (of the NArrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette) has done some work in the scale - I know he's worked in HOn30, with is the same idea, but using N scale mechanisms in HO scale. 

For what it's worth, I think On30 may be the perfect scale/gauge combo for a narrow gauge modeler - especially if he likes scratchbuilding. It's big enough to be seen and have a little heft, small enough to fit easily into a reasonable space, the scale is convenient for those of us stuck working in inches and feet, all the mechanical parts are readily available and inexpensive, and there's reasonable support from the manufacturers. What more could a person ask?


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

I HOPE THIS WILL BE MY LAST QUESTION, AGAIN THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME IN THIS PROCESS............. 

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD DEALER FOR SCENERY AND STRUCTURES FOR On30? I FOUND A GREAT DEALER FOR MY ENGINE AND A HANDFUL OF CARS FOR ONLY $300 SO IM HOPING TO FIND A GREAT DEALER FOR SCENERY AND STRUCTURES.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By bucknutdave on 08/05/2008 8:45 AM
I HOPE THIS WILL BE MY LAST QUESTION, AGAIN THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME IN THIS PROCESS............. 
DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD DEALER FOR SCENERY AND STRUCTURES FOR On30? I FOUND A GREAT DEALER FOR MY ENGINE AND A HANDFUL OF CARS FOR ONLY $300 SO IM HOPING TO FIND A GREAT DEALER FOR SCENERY AND STRUCTURES.



I'd suggest finding a local hobby shop and having a look through their O scale Walther's catalog. Scenery is not usually scale specific - though of course trees need to be bigger for a larger scale. You'll probably find that any decent hobby shop has all the scenery products you need, and can order any structures you want. There are a number of 1:45/48/50 die cast vehicles available. 

For structures, the shop should be able to order anything in the catalog. You will also find that scratchbuilding a structure is a pretty easy and rewarding task.


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

i was looking through the walthers online catalog, and i saw an O scale water tank and engine house: i was wondering if that would would for On30 as well. 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/261-5013 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/345-4024 

those are the links to the two structures im refering to.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Don't forget Sn3, alot of narrow gauge people model in this scale and it's pretty cool. Here is a link to some Narrow Gauge sites. 

http://midatlanticng.railfan.net/NGLinks.html#modeling


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/261-5013 
 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/345-4024 

Sheesh! $50 for a water tank? $60 for a single stall engine shed? I never could stomach the prices of some things.. 

Seriously, though, they're very nice models, and they would work well for On30. You might find them a tad large, but not grossly so, and they may in fact be perfect. Remember that narrow gauge equipment tends to be about 80% of the size of standard gauge equipment of the same era, and all the associated structures, etc. will be sized to match. Worst case scenario, the water tank might be a bit taller than ideal, and the engine house might dwarf a locomotive. Without the model in hand, it's hard to say for sure. 

Do what all good modelers do - if it looks good to you, run with it and to heck with what anyone else thinks! 

Here's an idea for you, though... Those are craftsman kits. They'll consist of a few detail parts, some plans and photos, and a pile of stripwood. If you're lucky the wood will be cut to size, otherwise you'll need to cut it yourself. This kind of kit is really only one good step removed from scratchbuilding, and both of the models you showed would be great candidates for a simple scratchbuilding project. One of the great things about scratchbuilding a structure is that you can make it fit your layout, instead of making the layout fit the structure. 

In any case, I'd suggest holding off on the structures for a bit, until you get a track plan figured out. You'll want to get everything up and running before you start putting any scenery down. Once you get the bugs worked out and are sure you like the track plan, then go wild! But it's sure a pain to spend a lot of time and money building a beautiful layout, only to find out that your spur is a half inch out of place, and everything has to be torn out and re-done.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 08/05/2008 3:34 PM
Don't forget Sn3, alot of narrow gauge people model in this scale and it's pretty cool. Here is a link to some Narrow Gauge sites. 
http://midatlanticng.railfan.net/NGLinks.html#modeling




Some good links there! I've always been afraid of Sn3 due to the very limited nature of the market. Especially after switching to standard gauge in the transition era, I discovered it sure is nice to be able to go down to the local hobby shop and buy something useful off the shelf! 

This website is a fascinating and informative place to spend several hours 
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/ 
He's worked in HO, On30, Sn42, all on the same layout - the ultimate in rubber gauging! He's got a lot of good stuff there to help someone like bucknutdave decide on the best scale/gauge for him.


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## bucknutdave (Aug 4, 2008)

just wondering if anyone knew of any good websites discussing the top of benchwork. i have a general idea of how to do the main benchwork for my layout, would i be ably to get all that i need at home depot or lowes? also, i was thinking of using woodland scenics "sub-terrain" system for my layout as well, it wont be much since im doing a 2ft x 6ft, just a couple switchbacks to climb a total of 6in. has anyone else used or have an opinion of the sub-terrain system.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ken, 

I do believe I'm aware of the micro site. That's where I got a few notions that space might be a problem. 

I won't go into gory details, but 18 months + I started to build a layout. Many varied and distasteful things intervened and I still have no layout. Just some disected stuff lying in boxes while I learn the hobby. 

Now, it appears that perhaps by Fall, I'll start on my benchwork. 

That's why I asked the question, I got concerned about radii. 

Les


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