# LGB RhB trains question



## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Hello Guys,

I have not been able to find a complete answer by web-crawling, so I thought I'd throw this out there and see if you had an answer:

*Do all RhB passenger trains, such as pulled by the Ge4/4 II's always end with a control car?* 

I was looking at "upgrading" my Amfleet coaches with red LEDs for the tail lights (rather than relying on the interior lighting to sort of shine weakly through the lenses in white..),
when it occurred o me that the LGB RhB coaches have no detail for a taillight at all on either the 3063/3064 or the Viafer Retica 3067/3068 styled series coaches. 

Can anyone tell me if the RhB had a provision for a taillight on a non-shuttled train or are all of the trains supposed to end with a control-cab?

Thanks


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Control cars are predeminantly used on shuttle trains, e.g. Ge 4/4 I, Ge 4/4 II, short trains 2 or 3 cars + control car (or in some instances 2nd engine). Some of them exist on a variety of lines. One shuttle train operates from Samedan to Pontresina, Filisur-Davos. In 1999 the RhB intriduced the NEVA Retica concept and intruduced shuttle trains, e.g. S-chanf and Zuoz, Scuol-Landquart. Control cars of that generation are different from the LGB model. Other non-LGB style control cars are the ABDt style cars.
  ABDt 1711










ABt 1752 








Abt 1702 (LGB style car)








Shuttle train with two Ge 4/4 I

*There is/was no control car usage on the Bernina line. *


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Wow. Thanks for those great pix Axel! 

So, just to clarify then, what do they use as a "Zugschluss" taillight with the last coach on the Bernina line when there isn't another loco or control cab on the tailing-end? Should our coaches have two red lamps somewhere?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

So, just to clarify then, what do they use as a "Zugschluss" taillight with the last coach on the Bernina line when there isn't another loco or control cab on the tailing-end? Should our coaches have two red lamps somewhere? 

L-G,

The RhB got rid of "Zugschluss" taillights when they introduced section blocks on their various lines.
For the Bernina line that was in 1975.
Before that they used a single red flashing light like this one:









Now, if an RhB loco is running solo, there is one taillight and when the Control cars are used for shuttle operation, the way the lights on the control car are set up gets pretty elaborate.


Regards, Knut


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks Knut,

I did read somewhere that the control car and double-ended lighting got complicated with one light on the the front of the non-powered end or somesuch. Ive got the RhB Krokodile with that single red gel on one end, which always puzzled me to no end. I confess I understand very little about the Swiss vs. the German lights and signals systems.









Thanks for your explanations.
The single flashing light was a revelation. CSX here in the US uses something like that at the end of a freight train.

So, if I understand correctly then, RhB has no red lights on the last coach at all. Unless there is a pusher-loco or a control-cab, the trains are dark on the trailing end.









Are the #3063 LGB cars prototypically pre-1975? I always assumed they were pulled by the 6/6 I "Crocodile". Yet I note that LGB had numerous variants of this 3000-series coach and they have Austrian Railways stamped into the coach-frame I-beam (in German) even on the RhB variants. seeing that Lehmann even had an Orient Express livery of these cars, are these even prototypically accurate as Chur/Pontresina passenger cars?

If so, should/could I fashion a blinking red LED "box" for the end of a rake of 3063/3064 coaches?
I guess having model DB in other scales for so long alongside my OBB, FO, and RhB in G-scale, I miss my "Zugschlussbeleuchtung" at the end of my night time coach rake!









Thanks,
L.G.B.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

The 3062-> coaches are Austrian type, and are actually shorter than the prototype. 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/private/StLB/narrow_gauge/car/StLB_Ba76_Murau1.jpg


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks to your link, I was able to find this:
Titled: RhB Oldtimer Abgestellt 

I get the distinct feeling that LGB just adapted their existing ÖBB coach to numerous liveres without attempting to be fully technically accurate.
While this "Oldtimer" bears a strong resemblance to the 3064, it has a distinctly rounded roofline above the vestibule.

Knut, I see that you have posted some pix and info onthese coaches on gbdb.info under the name krs. can you tell me any more about the 3063/3064 
protoypes? In fact I was amazed at the baggage-car mod. Did you do this? Bravo! 
RhB Postwagen


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By LebenswichtigeGartenBahn on 23 Oct 2010 10:25 PM 

So, if I understand correctly then, RhB has no red lights on the last coach at all. Unless there is a pusher-loco or a control-cab, the trains are dark on the trailing end.









Yes...................

Except of course for the couple of small sections where the RhB train runs more like a street car through the middle of the road in a few towns.
For those sections at night, a tail light is apparently required except I haven't checked how that is actually provided.
But everywhere else - probably everything you have on your layout - no lights on the last coach at all.

Here is a short video of the RhB running through the center of town along the street:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0b0c3e014M&NR=1

And as Spule already mentioned, the LGB 3063 and 3064 cars never ran on the RhB as far as I can tell.
Those LGB cars were originally OBB cars (Austrian cars) and received the RhB paint scheme by LGB starting in 1981. 


Historical RhB cars are in the image gallery below - in the last few years, LGB created models of some of those.

http://www.haribu.ch/coppermine/index.php?cat=15

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

This is probably the closest RhB car to the 3063 and 3064


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

I may have answered my own question. 
I noticed there was a photo of a coach on the Railfan site that indicated an AS 1161 in the Alpine Classic livery, so I Googled "RhB AS1161" and found this: 

Bahnbilder.de 1929 Landquart 1Kl Salonwagen page

It looks a lot like the #3064 except for the tapered roof above the doors and possibly the overall dimensions.
The photo also makes clear that there wer apparently o affixed coachlamps/taillights.


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)




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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By LebenswichtigeGartenBahn on 23 Oct 2010 11:57 PM 









You know, LGB could have made the 3064 cars into the one you posted above - instead they made this one later:


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

The original green ÖBB car that LGB modelled was a supposed to be class B4ip. However, the Austrian B4ip does not have the two small windows on the end that the 3062-3064 have on the ends, on both sides of the coach-to-coach transfer doors.







Also the entrance-doors are angled on the real B4ip and the windows are rounded at the corners.

I'm beginning to think that the LGB model is a hybrid composite of the RhB AS1161 and the ÖBB's B4ip!

The car-end details look more like the AS1161 seen here:








although the roof design favors the B4ip.

As for the other car you posted, that is also an AS-class coach built two years after the AS1161, in 1931 as the AS1141-44's.
LGB did model those accurately.


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Compare this with the RhB AS1161 and the OBB B4ip and tell me which one it looks more like.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 23 Oct 2010 11:51 PM 
This is probably the closest RhB car to the 3063 and 3064









Yes, in the sense that they have windows, wheels and haul passengers....

The Austrian cars were to be the "modern" cars with closed vestibules and diaphrams between the cars....eventually replaced with something more accurate.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By LebenswichtigeGartenBahn on 23 Oct 2010 11:57 PM 








Yup, that is better.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 24 Oct 2010 08:20 AM 
Posted By krs on 23 Oct 2010 11:51 PM 
This is probably the closest RhB car to the 3063 and 3064









Yes, in the sense that they have windows, wheels and haul passengers....




Exactly - that was my whole point, that there was no RhB car that looked like the 3064 which was what I posted earlier and you did as well I believe.

I had never seen the shorty RhB Salon car before, but then again, I had a quick look at RhB prototype cars used in local service which is what the 3064 represents, not cars used in long distance express service.


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## LebenswichtigeGartenBahn (Oct 23, 2010)

Sure. Look I'm certainly no expert or I would not have posed the original question. I'm just offering my conclusions to get your insights on the matter.

In fact I only found the As ("short") 1161 thanks to the first photolink you guys posted - so I owe what I did find to the thread contributors and thought I owed it to share what I had found as a result.

I thought a Alpine Classic version of the AS 1161 I saw a few pages away on that same link looked awfully close to the LGB coach. So I Googled RhB As1161 until I found images in a red and cream livery.

It took hours to crawl through each photo in the scattereed directories of Swiss and Austrian passenger coaches to find the ones I posted.

I'm of the thought that the 3062-3064 (and Stierer Bar Car etc. & variants... based on the same moulds...) are not prototypically accurate of either the B4ip/s OeBB coach thety claim to represent, nor are they 100% the As1161 either; they seem to be an amalgam. Still, LGB clearly marked the Austrian version on the body of the coach "B4ip" and yet I searched until 4AM to find any protoypical photo of a B4ip that matched the window shapes, right angled recessed vestibule, door-window shape, and coach end details of the LGB models. Despite the Austrian Railways stampings on the frames of all these coaches (incl. the RhB, Zillertal, St.Lb, etc varied liveries), it seems to only match the B4ip in approximate dimension, roof shape, and general bogie/wheel arrangement. 

Thanks loads to all of you for showing me where to look and the informative answers. The primary question was answered more than thoroughly by your responses as well as countless photos I came across in trying to find the #3064 prototype that show that these coaches did not have any permanent Zugschluß lighting feature, (unless as explained they might have had a temporary beacon attached prior to 1975 on some routes...).

Your Interest and Response to My Inquiry Are Much Appreciated!


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