# K4 Pacific - proper axle pump procedure?



## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

I ran my K4 yesterday for the first time, and find the axle pump does not seem to pull water in from the tender.

I primed it as indicated in the instruction. Opened the bypass and noted water recirculated into the tender, then closed the valve. Filled the boiler from it's normal inlet on top/back of the boiler, and of course the tender was filled with water, too.

Ran the engine for 15 or 20 minutes, and the sight glass indicated empty. Checked the tender, and water level was still full - had not budged. Fooled around with the bypass and opened slightly noted steam and condensed water coming from the boiler into the tender.

Used the hand pump to refill the boiler while still under pressure.

Any suggestions on my next step to assure axle pump works? Eccentric and pump action all appear unimpeded and moving normally. 


- Robert Dennis


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RDennis on 27 Sep 2011 11:47 AM 
I ran my K4 yesterday for the first time, and find the axle pump does not seem to pull water in from the tender.

I primed it as indicated in the instruction. Opened the bypass and noted water recirculated into the tender, then closed the valve. Filled the boiler from it's normal inlet on top/back of the boiler, and of course the tender was filled with water, too.

Ran the engine for 15 or 20 minutes, and the sight glass indicated empty. Checked the tender, and water level was still full - had not budged. Fooled around with the bypass and opened slightly noted steam and condensed water coming from the boiler into the tender.

Used the hand pump to refill the boiler while still under pressure.

Any suggestions on my next step to assure axle pump works? Eccentric and pump action all appear unimpeded and moving normally. 


- Robert Dennis 



Robert
I may be wrong but a similiar thing happened with my Aster K-4. steam and water backing out of boiler into tender. I think it was the Clack valve stuck open causing pressure to back up. As I said I may be wrong and wouuld not be first time.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If you are getting steam back into the tender, as Art has said, it is more than likely you have a clack valve not shutting. I have just fine tuned the axle pump on my Mikado I built. I had to do some adjusting, but one thing I did was open the check valve on the back head and clean it out to be safe. Also, you might want to hook everything up, then open the bypass, pump a few times until you see a jet of water squirting out the return line, then close the bypass, or as has been suggested to me by another live steamer, run a few laps with the bypass open, then close it. 

Just be careful with the K4 as it is gas fired and you don't want to run that boiler dry. You probably know that, but sorry if you did.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Consider the water flow in the circuit. There are 5 one-way valves involved and the bypass valve. The circuit is from the tender, through the inlet valve of the tender pump, into the pump cavity, out the outlet valve of the tender pump, through the long pipe from the tender to the (probably 2) connectors between the tender and the engine. Then in the inlet valve of the axle pump into the pump cavity, then out the outlet valve to a "Y"-pipe. One of the branchs of the "Y" goes to the "Clack valve" on the engine backhead. The other branch goes to the bypass valve. The outlet of the bypass valve returns to the tender through (probably 2) connectors to the tender tank.

When the tender pump ram is being extracted from the cylinder a vacuum is formed which SHOULD pull the outlet valve closed and open the inlet valve and water from the tender flows into the cylinder. When the ram is being pushed into the cylinder, pressure is formed which SHOULD push the inlet valve closed and force the outlet valve open... along with the inlet and outlet valves of the axle pump and if the bypass is open then water will flow back through the return pipe right back into the tender tank. If the bypass valve is closed, then the pressure from the tender pump SHOULD force open the clack valve and water will enter the boiler.

A similar thing happens with the axle pump. When the ram is being extracted, the vacuum that forms SHOULD be pulling the outlet valve closed and SHOULD be pulling the inlet valve open, as well as the outlet and inlet valves of the tender pump. Thus water is pulled from the tender tank through the three valves and into the pump cylinder. When the ram is being pushed back into the cylinder, the pressure that is formed SHOULD close the inlet valve as well as the outlet and inlet valves of the tender pump and open the outlet valve of the axle pump and the rest is the same as when the tender pump is working. Note that the outlet valve of the tender pump and the inlet valve of the axle pump are redundant. And when the tender pump is working, the outlet valve of the axle pump is redundant, as is the inlet valve of the tender pump when the axle pump is working.

What can go wrong? 

It would take the failure of at least 3 valves to make either of the two pumps fail. But I have seen it happen! I have seen steam and water bubbling out the inlet port of the tender pump, which means ALL the valves had failed!

The pipe from the tender pump to the axle pump is either a pressure pipe or a suction pipe, depending on which pump is working. (Pressure if Tender pump, Suction if Axle pump.) If there is a leak in that line that lets air in, the axle pump will not be able to pull water from the tender, but may let water under pressure pass on to the boiler. Air is thinner than water and a VERY SMALL leak can ruin a pump's effeciency, even down to zero!

Close the bypass valve and work the tender pump to build pressure in the boiler (works best if you absolutely fill the boiler with water so there is no air to compress in it) until you get a bar or two of pressure in the boiler (14 to30 PSI). Do you see any water leaks in the pressure pipes? Look especially at the tender to engine connections as well as the outlet valve of the tender pump or around either connection to the axle pump... Any place where two materials have been joined (even silver soldered!) can be a place where a leak can occur. If you find water leaking, then you can be pretty sure the axle pump won't move water as it will be pulling air in that leak instead of water from the tender.

One other possibility is that the outlet valve of the axle pump may be stuck open as well as the clack valve (and since you say you get steam and water back to the tender with the bypass valve open then the clack valve is stuck open) and that will let the axle pump satisfy the vacuum with water/steam from the boiler instead of the tender supply.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably why you see people bang on their engines with wrenches in 7.5" scale , to unstuck/loosen up the damn valve!


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

What is the "clack" valve and where would it be located? 

I looked over the basic layout of the axle valve inlet, outlet, etc this morning. Water is routed from the tender hand pump out of the tender and into the engine at the bypass valve. From the bypass water is routed up to the boiler backhead, and also along the bottom of the outside of the boiler to the axle pump itself. The pump itself has two tubes coming into it; one as just described leading from the bypass valve; the other leading out to the back of the locomotive where it connects via a tube back to the tender for water flow back to the tender. 

Where in this flow would I find the clack valve? Is it at the boiler backhead? 

- RD


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By afinegan on 27 Sep 2011 01:04 PM 
Probably why you see people bang on their engines with wrenches in 7.5" scale , to unstuck/loosen up the damn valve! 
Been there. Done that.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RDennis on 27 Sep 2011 04:11 PM 
What is the "clack" valve and where would it be located? 

I looked over the basic layout of the axle valve inlet, outlet, etc this morning. Water is routed from the tender hand pump out of the tender and into the engine at the bypass valve. From the bypass water is routed up to the boiler backhead, and also along the bottom of the outside of the boiler to the axle pump itself. The pump itself has two tubes coming into it; one as just described leading from the bypass valve; the other leading out to the back of the locomotive where it connects via a tube back to the tender for water flow back to the tender. 

Where in this flow would I find the clack valve? Is it at the boiler backhead? 

- RD 
Bob,

I'm not very familiar with your smaller locomotives. But in the 1.5" stuff, these are the check valves on the side of the boiler, usually up closer to the smoke box than at the rear of the boiler. They set at about the centerline (top to bottom) of the boiler. Hope this helps a little.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Robert, 
If I may suggest! 
Use the tender hand pump to fill the boiler. 
Start with the bypass open and pump several times until you see a good squirt of water back into the tender. 
Then close the bypass and pump the water into the boiler. 
This will make sure that all the options are working. 
When it is at the desired level, stop pumping, and then steam up. 
When up to pressure, use the hand pump again, first with the bypass open to make sure water is returning to the tender, and then close it to make sure that you can still pump water into the boiler. 
Then start your run immediately. 
Some of the Accucraft axle pumps due to design require you to do this everytime that you stop during a run or they will not work. 
Try this and then see if the water is getting into the boiler from the axle pump. 
If it is a check valve, then the hand pump will move back all by itself due to the returning pressure. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RDennis on 27 Sep 2011 04:11 PM 
What is the "clack" valve and where would it be located? 

I looked over the basic layout of the axle valve inlet, outlet, etc this morning. Water is routed from the tender hand pump out of the tender and into the engine at the bypass valve. From the bypass water is routed up to the boiler backhead, and also along the bottom of the outside of the boiler to the axle pump itself. The pump itself has two tubes coming into it; one as just described leading from the bypass valve; the other leading out to the back of the locomotive where it connects via a tube back to the tender for water flow back to the tender. 

Where in this flow would I find the clack valve? Is it at the boiler backhead? 

- RD 
Shud be where it connects to boiler backead. I dont know about the Accucraft but the Aster attaches to bachead. Shud have an entry from bottom of valve and then attaches to boiler. If is there and can be removed there is a spring and steel ball that may be stuck. Maybe tapping it will work. If it does, sure beats the H--- out of removing it to loosen it up.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RDennis on 27 Sep 2011 04:11 PM 
What is the "clack" valve and where would it be located? 

I looked over the basic layout of the axle valve inlet, outlet, etc this morning. Water is routed from the tender hand pump out of the tender and into the engine at the bypass valve. From the bypass water is routed up to the boiler backhead, and also along the bottom of the outside of the boiler to the axle pump itself. The pump itself has two tubes coming into it; one as just described leading from the bypass valve; the other leading out to the back of the locomotive where it connects via a tube back to the tender for water flow back to the tender. 

Where in this flow would I find the clack valve? Is it at the boiler backhead? 

- RD 

Go back and read my description of the serial circuit of the plumbing... You have your pipes from the tender to the engine swapped.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I bought an Acccuraft clack (check) valve for my C-19 and it didn't work when I got it. You can easily take it apart, clean the seating surface, ball, etc., and put it back together. I think I have a photo from that period.... 










The left side screws into the backhead and the short tube contains the valve - it unscrews from the thick piece. You can see there are two places to grip with a wrench - just unscrew the two halves.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm a little nervous about tearing into either the pump itself or what is likely the check valve located at the rear of the boiler. Will report back after another run with revised steamup workflows.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

Here's a link to some photos. (@Pete: How did you insert a photo in your message?) 

Flow from tender goes directly to axle pump, then from pump to bypass valve; from there either up to the boiler or out and back to the tender. I think the "clack" or check valve is at the backhead, noted in picture #1. 

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjwchVJc


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Here ya go robert.

K4 Backhead









K4 Axel Pump.









K4 Left side.









K4 right side.









K4under the cab.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you, and apologies for the sloppy photography.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Steve I see a slight difference in your pics of the back of the K-4. Mine does not have what you call the blow down valve. It does not exist on my loco and the back of the cab shown is different than mine also. Where did these pics come from? Later RJD


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

RJD, 
The K4 had options. Your's does not have the blow down valve? You may not have selected that as one of the options.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

I made the photos of my K4 Pacific this morning in my garage. It is serial #2.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 28 Sep 2011 07:47 PM 
Well Steve I see a slight difference in your pics of the back of the K-4. Mine does not have what you call the blow down valve. It does not exist on my loco and the back of the cab shown is different than mine also. Where did these pics come from? Later RJD Just so I don't cause any confusion, the pictures that I posted in my previous reply are of Robert's (MLS-RDennis) K4, which he took. I just posted them because Robert was having trouble getting them posted.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete: How did you insert a photo in your message?) 

I had the photo already in my MLS Gold space, so I just inserted it using the 'Image Gallery' icon/link in the editor. I'm surprised you didn't find the link to the Tutorial on posting photos - in the Photography forum. [Oh yes - posting links is much harder than posting photos. . ] 

*Posting photos in the forum video tutorial** 
* 

_P.S. I found the way to fool this stupid code into leaving my links alone until I can create the href. I drop the : and . so it doesn't recognise them as a link - then in HTML mode I put them back in. I found you have to put two "" around the link in HTML mode to make it leave one behind when you exit HTML._


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Seeing as the "blow down" valve's feed is coming from the top of the boiler, what would be the exact purpose having it up that high? I guess you could tilt the engine back to nearly drain all the water out, but wouldn't it have been better to have the blowdown valve come off the bottom of the boiler? 

In the real deal, this wasn't the purpose of the blow down valve to remove sediment that would accumulate at the bottom of the boiler? In our small scale engines, I think the only purpose is for draining the water off after the engine has cooled, right? 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

I think the purpose it to de-pressurize the boiler before ending a run session. I double checked and indeed the top boiler output feeds down to the blow down valve. My SOP at the end of a session with my other live steamers is to empty the boiler by draining the water out of the main boiler inlet - I open it up and turn the engine upside down until all water is drained.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. I had thought its purpose was to drain. I know it would be a lot easier to have a blow down on the mikado which allowed one to drain the boiler rather than taking out the safeties and turning upside down.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My buddy said he found a plug on the underside of the boiler, but taking it out did not open up anything. Would be nice to have a drain of some type at the bottom of the boiler. 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I had thought its purpose was to drain. I know it would be a lot easier to have a blow down on the mikado which allowed one to drain the boiler rather than taking out the safeties and turning upside down. 
Accucraft seems to be all over the place on "blow down" valves. 

My C-19 has one from the top of the boiler, like this K4, and I use it to remove any extra water when raising steam. It is open until steam comes out, at which point I close it. I also open it when letting the boiler cool down after a run so it doesn't suck oil back in via the steam pipe. 

The EBT #12, on the other hand, has a "blow down" that is closer to the real thing, mounted halfway down on the boiler. I only open it wafter a run to let things cool down and vent the steam. 

And I still have to turn them upside down to completely drain the water, which I prefer to do before putting them back on the shelf until the next invite, (No tracks in condos :-( ) even though that EBT #12 is 20 lbs. As an aside, it's tough to drain them upside down and to avoid damaging something due to the weight.


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

Which of the options, if any, for the AML K4 can be purchased separately and installed by the customer?

-tnx,

Jeff


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Which of the options, if any, for the AML K4 can be purchased separately and installed by the customer?
Accucraft's AML website lists the following: 

OPTIONS 

AP-29208 Water Hand Pump with Check Valve (Old Sku: G17-101) 

AP-29211 Axle Water Pump with Bypass Valve (Old Sku: G17-105) 

AP-21611 Adjustable Hydrostatic Lubricator (Old Sku: G17-121) 

AP-21769 Boiler Blowdown Valve 

IMHO it would be tricky to replace the lubricator, though I know it has been done. It will be a serious piece of engineering to add the axle pump afterwards, so practically speaking it is not customer- installable. 

Accucraft usually puts blank plugs on the boiler when options aren't installed. That check valve I bought (see photo on page 2 of this thread,) fitted my C-19 with no problems, and there should be space in the tender for the hand water pump, so I imagine that can be classed as customer-installable. 

That assumes you can buy the option to install it yourself. I know the Accu eStore sells the hand water pump and check/clack valve, but I don't think they offer the adjustable lubricator or the blow down valve kit. (?)


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't like turning it upside down for the reason you mention Pete, and an additional reason of perhaps the wicks coming out of the cups a bit. I try not to vigorously shake it and have not yet had a problem yet.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

more re: the Check "Clack" valve (see photos earlier in thread for reference): 

I took the check valve apart this evening and find it does not have a "ball" mechanism; rather, it uses a sort-of shaft with o-ring near the bottom of the shaft. The shaft is like a brass rod, thicker in the middle. The top end bolt has an inner hold the shaft fits into; the O-ring is on the thicker part of the movable shaft on its lower section. 

It appears to me that pressurized steam comes in to the housing and pushes down on the top part of the shaft, and the o-ring seals off the water inlet. When the pump work, it pushes the shaft up against the steam pressure. 

Now, as I look at it, it seems to me there should be a spring to help hold the shaft down to keep the seal in place. Thus, the pumped water would push against the pressure of the steam/spring; and the spring would keep the shaft in the closed position as a normal condition. There is no spring in this valve. There is no ball or seat for a ball in this valve. So if this is a "clack" valve, it is not like those described by others earlier in this string. 

Any thoughts on how this valve should work, or has anyone seen a clack valve like this? 

- RD


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Well now that IS interesting. I am sure Cliff may be able to answer some of those questions if anyone here cannot, but I suspect you'll get an answer in due time. Good for you in taking the plunge at opening things up.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

I made a engine servicing area in my shop. I made a powered oil and water remover. I bought a vacuum pump from harbor freight, and made a receptical from a mason Jar with an inlet and an outlet. Then connected silicone tubing from the pump to the jar, then another piece of silicone tubing to the jar. I fitted some brass tubing to the inlet sliicone tubing. I made the brass tubing small enough to slip pass and lubricators with the pipe going through the middle. After a day of steaming I turn on the pump and let it suck the lubricator dry and then wipe off the tubing and remove the water from the boiler if needed. I usually do not remove the water from my boilers every day. I got tired of messing with the plastic syringes at home, I will use them when at a steam up. Empty the jar before it fills up. My pump is under the bench out of the way. 

If you find a mason jar with a wide mouth, intall a single inlet and it works great to dry out a cell phone that fell in water. An hour under vacuum will dry it out and usually restore its operation. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Steve, you have a pic of that contraption to share? I believe I will get to the point of leaving a bit of water left over from a run in the boiler, but for now, I empty it. That seems like a good idea though.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, that is one form of a Check valve, They all work about the same way... A moveable part that can cover an opening such as to allow the flow of liquid in only one direction. 

Some do not have a spring, but those are usually mounted much more vertically than the photos show this one. I suppose the flow of steam passing through the body could push/pull the moveable part into place, but vertical mounting would make it a lot easier to do so.

I still want to know if you have swapped the two hoses from the tender to the opposite connections on the locomotive. Your earlier description of the plumbing indicates the tender pump went to the wrong end of the plumbing circuit on the engine. The way you described it the axle pump could not pump at all if the bypass valve were closed and it could not pull water from the tender even if the bypass was open.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

No access to my shop right now but might be able to get a picture this weekend.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

@ Semper Vaporo - without going back over my notes, I have the loco next to me as I write this. The bypass valve is connected to the outflow back to the tender, and is equipped with a line feeding up to the backhead of the locomotive and the checkvalve. 

A black rubber hose comes off the feed outlet on the tender (outlet which is connected to the tender hand pump); a white/clear silicone hose comes off the water return to the tender. 

Are you suggesting the water out from the tender should flow first to the bypass valve connector and from there to the pump? Seems to me the axle pump pushes water to the bypass, where it goes either to the backhead or to the tender, and thus should be the water return to the tender thru its white silicone tube.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

More on the check valve - ran the engine this evening with a goal of figuring out the check valve. With the loco steamed up, opened the bypass and noted water returning with steam to the tender. I gently tapped on the check valve with a tack hammer and the flow immediately stopped. Opened the bypass full open, and nothing returned to the tender (the locomotive was stationary and not moving as I did this test).

I closed the bypass and used the handpump and could hear water going into the boiler. 

I opened the bypass just a small amount, ran the handpump and water returned to the tender, as expected. No steam returned. Kept it open , opened the engine throttle and moved the engine and small spurts of water returned to the tender, no steam. So this proved the axle pump is pulling water from the tender and putting it to the bypass.


Noted the tender water level and ran the engine for a few minutes. Water level reduced in the tender when I checked. Did the above procedure again, found some steam, tapping on the valve sealed off the steam. Ran but water level did not reduced in the tender.

So its obviously the check valve mechanism. If the valve doesn't seat with every cycle of the axle pump, then there's no way the pumped water will overcome the steam pressure and the water won't make it into the boiler. So my check valve is inconsistent.

I think a small spring would fix the problem. Not too powerful - just enough to seat the valve (o-ring) and keep it from getting stuck.

Thoughts?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RDennis on 29 Sep 2011 10:28 PM 
@ Semper Vaporo - without going back over my notes, I have the loco next to me as I write this. The bypass valve is connected to the outflow back to the tender, and is equipped with a line feeding up to the backhead of the locomotive and the checkvalve. 

A black rubber hose comes off the feed outlet on the tender (outlet which is connected to the tender hand pump); a white/clear silicone hose comes off the water return to the tender. 

Are you suggesting the water out from the tender should flow first to the bypass valve connector and from there to the pump? Seems to me the axle pump pushes water to the bypass, where it goes either to the backhead or to the tender, and thus should be the water return to the tender thru its white silicone tube. 

Your description from before is:

Posted By RDennis on 27 Sep 2011 04:11 PM 
What is the "clack" valve and where would it be located? 

I looked over the basic layout of the axle valve inlet, outlet, etc this morning. Water is routed from the tender hand pump out of the tender and into the engine at the bypass valve. From the bypass water is routed up to the boiler backhead, and also along the bottom of the outside of the boiler to the axle pump itself. The pump itself has two tubes coming into it; one as just described leading from the bypass valve; the other leading out to the back of the locomotive where it connects via a tube back to the tender for water flow back to the tender. 

Where in this flow would I find the clack valve? Is it at the boiler backhead? 

- RD 


Herer is a schematic drawing of the tender/engine plumbing circuit. According to your description above you have the two hoses from the tender swapped at the engine... Per the two statements I highlighted above...

Per the drawing, the piping should be "from the tender hand pump to the axle pump" and "from the bypass valve back to the tender (tank)".










You can see that water will flow through both pumps regardless of which pump is actively working. And the pressure derived from either will be applied to the clack valve at the boiler if the bypass valve is closed (shown open).


Per your latest post, I think you now have the hoses connected properly.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think a small spring would fix the problem 

I think you are short one small spring. 

Call Cliff and ask him to send you a new, working clack/check valve. You can send him the old one back in the same package.


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## RDennis (Sep 25, 2011)

@ Semper - yes, your schematic matches the water flow/ valve layout on the K4. My initial post was incorrect. The bypass valve is buried in the body work of the back end of the locomotive, and very difficult to see where it's connected, hence my initial errors.

I emailed Cliff last night asking if the check valve should come equipped with a spring - no word back yet.

- RD


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The check valve should have s spring. If not it malfunctions. Later RJD


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I wonder in the long run, what works best. A sprung check valve, or ball check [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A sprung check valve, or ball check valve 
Jeremiah, 

My 'ball' check valve has a spring in it. It doesn't really matter whether it is a ball or a cone with an O-ring - what matters is the seal material, the seat against which it seals, the size of the mating area, and the longevity of the material. 

It's clear that Accucraft didn't have room for the original straight check valve (my photo) in a 1/29th or 1/32nd model, so they made a right-angle version. 

I'm more interested in moving all the pipes under the footplate.


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