# This is very much harder than I thought..



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

I figured I could just remover the 'tank' from a nice USAT 4 bay hopper and build my own.

Well, no!

Removing the container from the frame took me a month. Trying to save those nice 4 bays was an awful cutting and grinding chore. They are molded above the frame inside the tank and the ends are one piece above and below the frame. Plus I wanted to use the existing frame to stabilize the new cylinder. That means cutting slots between the inside of the frame and hidden tops of the hoppers.

Having worked my way through that I had to build new ends AND new interior structures that would support the cylinder. The ends are on an angle and the interior supports are vertical but all have to be the same height when in place. Once in place (and that wasn't a walk in the park) I had to find a way to wrap the cylinder tightly around the supports and the ends.

This photo (see below) shows my pattern fitting over one support and one end. There is still a little work to do to make it fit better but once done I should be able to cut the longer piece out of my 4 x 8 sheet of .030 styrene.

Having finished that I have to rebuild the end frames by removing the 'notch' on the top corners, transfer over the USAT walk way supports and the USAT walkway and scratch build the four hopper new covers.

And I thought I would do two at once.

By Christmas I figure.

Dave


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Solving all those problems is half, or more of the fun Dave! 
Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave 
when your done, make one for me also. 

Matter of fact, thats a dang good idea. You have all the needed parts this way.
Now my head hurts again.....

Where did you get the drawing info from?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Blew my mind just reading the changes. Later RJD


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

The drawings came out of the February 1994 Model Railroader magazine. They were a part of a great 9 page photo/story about the Hawker Siddeley, Marine Industries Ltd. and National Steel Car Co. 100 ton cylindrical hoppers. They were introduced in the early '70's to relieve a serious box car shortage and as I model a prairie short line circa 1975 I just had to have at least one on hand.

I was planning on having 5 or 6 of the Aristocraft cylindrical hoppers, and over look all the deficiencies, but they went off and spent their development money on engines and repaints of old 40 foot cars. Sadly that leaves modellers with a very big hole in a modern (past 30 years) fleet. Not saying any more on that ;-)

Dave


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

A neat piece of work Dave and some creative thinking to get you there!

The Trudeau hopper is a fixture on Canadian roads since the 70s and I agree is a must for your modelling. Somehow the slab sided hoppers just don't cut it in Canadian grain service. What paint schemes are you planning on and what will you use for lettering?

Regards ... Doug


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Couple things to remember... Dremel tools, rubber bands and squadron putty are your friends...use them. -AND- My personal favorite... If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. lol


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 10/20/2008 10:00 AM
Couple things to remember... Dremel tools, rubber bands and squadron putty are your friends...use them. -AND- My personal favorite... If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. lol


That's good advice! Also, remember that styrene responds well to heat forming. I like to wrap it around a former, put the whole thing in water, and boil in the microwave for 5 minutes or so. The stove woud work for larger items, but you have to be careful not to let the styrene touch the pan. Take it out, run it under cold water, and they styene has taken the shape of the form with no springback.


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 10/20/2008 7:37 AM
A neat piece of work Dave and some creative thinking to get you there!

The Trudeau hopper is a fixture on Canadian roads since the 70s and I agree is a must for your modelling. Somehow the slab sided hoppers just don't cut it in Canadian grain service. What paint schemes are you planning on and what will you use for lettering?

Regards ... Doug



Doug

I'll use the silver (aluminum) and yellow scheme. Light rail and all. I'd love to use the SK one - old or new - but it's far to modern for me. CDS will supply decals I guess all though if there is something else out there....

I'm into a tube of plastic already and but my cylinder will use up a piece of .030 that's 20" x 11" so it's a little hard to pre-form. I've practiced wrapping ti around the supports and it works ok.. I'll anchor it to one side and after the glue dries I can wrap it in place pretty easy. I say that now....;-) It will still be very difficult to get a factory match between the ends and the cylinder. Small gaps show up here and there no matter what I do. Perhaps there is a product that will flow on around the joint like very fine toothpaste. At least it will look like a bead of welding.

Anyway, tonight it fits.

Dave


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave

I like your choice pf paint schemes.

Just a cautionary word ... CDS is no longer in business as the two principles have retired. There are still some stocks on hand though ... I will see Tom Hood (the main mover in CDS) tomorrow night and will ask what is available in 1:29. But essentially, if you need lettering for future projects, now is the time ...

Regards ... Doug


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Dave, 

Take care cold bending styrene that thick. I've had it warp on me, or pull the rest of a model out of line. You know better than I how well your structure is braced, but be aware that it will be trying to straighten itself out unless you scribe the back, or form it in some way. 

That said, I'm really impressed! your work so far looks spot-on, and I'm excited to see how your model progresses. 

I have an idea for your thin filler. Would it be possible to mix up a batch of putty with lots of extra solvent, so that it's about 1/2 the regular thickness, then extrude it from a syringe of some sort, like the ones sold for glues? Or, for that matter, what about using one of the thicker glues, like Testor's model airplane glue (the kind in the metal tube), with one of their fine tips?


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

If you are just filling cracks, would white latex caulk suffice? I use it to fill the cracks between the drywall and tops of new baseboards or chair rails. A damp sponge run along the bead cleans away any excess and leaves a smooth fill.

This is not like the caulk your grandfather used. The new latex stuff is easy to use, as the sponge and your fingers will wash up easily in warm water. You do have to let it cure a while before painting it though.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Latex tends to shrink, if your concerned with expansion, I wouldnt use anything less than Painters Caulk, which dries solid enough and doesnt shrink, but still has a bit of flex, I just use good ol' Squadron Green Putty, nothing works better.


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

The caulking is a good idea but I never thought of the glue thing. The dispenser already has a very fine tip and if I'm real careful I can get it up inside the joint rather evenly. Failing that....

I have been getting all my G scale dry transfers from http://www.tmrdistributing.com/ for the past number of years. Very reliable and not pricey. I believe they are made new as ordered but I couldn't say for sure.

The original cars have 12 welding lines on the cylinder. Each one 3'9" apart. I have to scribe these into the sheet very carefully - it is rather thin - but I haven't had an issue with warping of twisting so far. I had the choice of getting a 4 x 8 sheet of .030, .040 or .060 but I was reluctant to try to work with the heavier material. I know I should have used the .040 but that's for next time I guess. We'll soon see anyway.

Dave


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Dave, 

For the weld lines, try applying masking tape on either side of the weld seam, leaving a very thin space. Apply glue, caulk, Squadron putty, bubble gum, or whatever you like, then peel the tape away. That may be a lot easier than scribing them, and it will give a proper raised seam. It may also give just enough unevenness to give the impression of a weld line.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

is it done yet???


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 10/20/2008 5:00 PM
Dave, 

For the weld lines, try applying masking tape on either side of the weld seam, leaving a very thin space. Apply glue, caulk, Squadron putty, bubble gum, or whatever you like, then peel the tape away. That may be a lot easier than scribing them, and it will give a proper raised seam. It may also give just enough unevenness to give the impression of a weld line.



Ta Daaaa! Brilliant idea







That's what's gon'na happen.

Thanks


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

You should title the thread different so it can be found in archives in the furture.


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/22/2008 2:26 PM
You should title the thread different so it can be found in archives in the future.



Good idea. I didn't think it would go on like this. It should'a said "Cylindrical hoppers - This is very much......." 

I tried but I can't find a way in. Body of the post - ok. But not the title. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Dave


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave
did you rub the genie in the boiler??
This all knowing , the great DWIGHT will fix it.

Is it done yet??


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyway....

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/dawinter/Cylindrical%20hopper%202.JPG

This is what it looks like when the shell is wrapped over the supporting forms. You can't see the welding pattern on the side - yet - but I think it will show up nicely when painted. Great idea that! 

I set the roof walk on the top to get a little perspective. 'course it not really ready for that yet.

A trip to town tomorrow for some 3mm styrene rod to match and rebuild the end structures and I can get into that. The hatch covers are finished. The roof walk support brackets are going to be a pain but I'm going to try to use the ones I 'melted' off the old hopper roof.

We'll soon see.

Dave


Note: Nothing is working for me today. The photo will not open with 'img' brackets. Error! Error! Link works. Life used to be so easy.

Dave


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## dana (Jan 7, 2008)

working now


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## cprwatcher (Jan 2, 2008)

No multimark? 

Looks great! 

John.


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cprwatcher on 10/23/2008 6:15 AM
*No multimark?* 

Looks great! 

John.


Be nice now.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I REEEEEEALY like that!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow--that's looking really good!


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

The best picture I could find is in Canadian Rail Car Pictorial Vol Eight page 44 although there are lots on line

Decals are going to be an issue. Evidently that are some available in 1:32 so I'm looking into those as a start.

The brake cylinders and air brake valve are relocated in these NSC cars so I'll get some close up pics and try to move these things around a little. If I'm going this far in this project I might as well get this detail more or less correct. None of my visitors down here will ever know anyway but....

Dave


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

I went into Kelowna this morning and took a bunch of pictures of the brake machinery so I can at least come close to the original. There was a significant difference between what USAT provided me and what was on the NSC car. As should be expected I guess.

The brake chain goes through a pulley and under the frame rather than staying above. Easy. There are a few extra assy's on the frame so some things will have to be scratch built. 

Interesting detail at the "A" end. Who knew I would have to do scenery on this car.


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## DTI356 (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave,

It looks excellent! You are doing great work.

As for filling cracks and gaps I use slivers and small strips of styrene. You can get styrene strips as small as .01 x .01. By the time the solvent softens it they can be pushed into the gaps and cracks. Then when dry they can be filed or scraped without fear as it will have become one with the other styrene.

Now, about your paint scheme......MULTI-MARK!!!!!!......do it!


http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp382473akg.jpg


I have a soft spot for CP Rail.....I spent some time in White River, Ont. and fell in love with the CP and it's rainbow of colors on it's boxcars. I modeled it in 'O' scale for years until my own personal nostalgia for a local RR (DT&I) overtook my interest.

Keep up the great work.
Brian Briggs


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

The air/brake machinery is done. I should have got a lot more finished but opted to spend Saturday down in Chilliwack at the train show. Investigating radio control. Again. Can't decide if there are too many choices - or not enough.

Anyway........... 











The frame for the ends is completed and the new tanks and piping is completed on the B end. The cylinder is firmly in place and all the gaps (there weren't that many) are filled and sanded. I'm convinced now that there are no decals left so I'll have to make my own starting with HO samples.

I have to use the small pieces of 'steps' that extend over the coupler assy to build on to the roof walk. the USAT version was narrower due to the 'notches' cut from the top corners. That will mean creating new ones below but they won't be as visable so a small error will pass. 
Later

Dave


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

looks awesome!

Philip


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it done???


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking good. Are you going to add the greenery also?







Later RJD


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 10/28/2008 3:37 PM
Is it done???



Trouble.

Of course 'the plan' was to use the roof walk from the original USAT hopper. Still is but the NSC hopper cylinder isn't as tall as the US made product and when all the frame work was rebuilt at each end - and the roof walk set properly in place - the roof walk supports were far to short. Making them long enough to touch the side of the cylinder was possible but it looked real silly.

So the end structures had to be removed again and cut down by 4 inches. The previous work in rebuilding these wasn't waisted because I did a better job this time anyway. 

I discarded the carefully saved USAT walk supports. I used Evergreen 1/8th channel to support the walk by fitting lengths over the manufacturers 'tabs' on the walk and I also placed a length under the walk at each tab. The inside tab will support the inside of the walk without modification. Hopefully! 

There are 13 supports on both the CDN style hopper and the US style hopper. The CDN one is about 6 inches shorter so the two end supports do not quite touch the top of the cylinder. I will have to just remove them. No biggy.

Photo to follow....

Dave


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Photo as promised.

You can see what I mean by the walk supports. These are the new ones on the outside and the original tabs on the inside. the end ones don't touch the hopper sides.










Yes. There will be a lawn to cut on the porch. Couldn't do without it. 

Dave l


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it done yet. 
Man I check this thread almost everytime I get on MLS.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

*Dave,*
*Looks great and a nice build.*
*Toad*


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, that's enough for tonight. 
I have the extensions off the sides of the roof walk (Cut from the steps that go between cars) and the four new hatches in place. One hatch was cut differently than the other three because they were always getting mixed up in style and colour anyway. Actually looks better that way. 

You'll see that I didn't modify the brake wheel. It was/is supposed to be in the same location but the vertical support on the right side should be moved over to the center of the car. Waaaay too much work.











Next a coat of primer and some decals. If I can get some.

Dave


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

All I can say is WOW!!! While I'm not into this period the modeling is superb.
Dave


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## NFLDRailway (Apr 10, 2008)

I've been following this build closely myself. It's a great job.Can't wait to see the finished product.

Sean
NFLD Railway


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Hooray!!!

I found S scale decals (1:64) and that works out perfectly. The little copy shop in town has become expert at doing conversions for me and they already have the S - G figured out. So it looks like it will be painted before Christmas.









Kadee couplers will go on tonight. 930's

Dave


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Keep those pics coming ... maybe USAT and others will take note of what a Trudeau hopper really looks like!!

Regards ... Doug


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 10/29/2008 6:37 PM
Keep those pics coming ... maybe USAT and others will take note of what a Trudeau hopper really looks like!!

Regards ... Doug




Years ago (far too many) I built a couple of these cars in N scale only to have just about everyone come out with their own version of the same thing. But then I found that N scale manufacturers were/are far more 'progressive' than the two main 1/29th suppliers. These boys are still stuck with 40 foot boxcars (like steam engines - never seen any more) with roof walks yet. Between the two of them they must have reproduced just about every old paint scheme in North America. Except NAR and the ON oval.









I think this car will look ok. I really wanted to do two of them at the same time and I would have if the job didn't get so fussy. Maybe down the road some time. I have an extra car under the bench.

Dave


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I owe a couple of folks some centerbeam cars then I'm ready to go. 
love it.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

is it done yet???


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 11/03/2008 3:06 PM
is it done yet???


Not yet.

It sits on a siding waiting couplers and paint. I've ordered the paint from Trains and Such in Calgary. That's pretty much an over night delivery. It's a 'formula' that has been accepted as the salmon colour needed for this car. Two parts Reefer Yellow and one part Box Car Red. It looks good in HO and N but colour has scale as well so it may be a little bit too light for my liking.

As for the decals. They will get here in a day or two and I have to reproduce them in 1:29 and recreate them on decal paper at home. No experience wrt this so.....

So I'm a week or two away. I expect to introduce the car on the next site update. 

Dave


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

For those that got lost. This project continues at 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/8/postid/60401/view/topic/Default.aspx

Dave


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