# Pulse smoke options....USA-Trains?



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

All-

I have been following the Massoth smoke unit install threads with interest, thinking of putting pulse smoke in at least two of my favorite LGB locos.

There are several examples of this on YouTube also to see the uses of the Massoth units...case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KNq...re=related

Now, in typical YouTube fashion, there were some other featured vidoes, including this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHwo...re=related

...and using not the Massoth unit but the USA-Trains unit, and produces much more smoke.

Checking prices shows that the USA Trains units are about $100-125 cheaper than the Massoth units (going by spares parts prices from USA-Trains site).

Does anyone have any first hand experience with these units, duration, longevity, triggering (using DC, not DCC) for pulse, etc.

Cordially-


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Garrett, the Massoth is the only one available (though I think Train-Li might have a very similar one) where you can pulse the smoke. 

All the other ones you are seeing are pulsing smoke with the decoder. 

Yes, you could swap out the LGB decoder for a Zimo and use an inexpensive smoke unit like an Aristo or USAT one. 

The Aristo one will eventually destroy it's electronics because the smoke fluid will weep into them, but it does not matter because you connect the heating unit and the fan directly to the Zimo decoder, bypassing all the electronics. The USAT unit looks a little better built, in my opinion. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg, to confirm, you are saying that you could NOT pulse the smoke on the USA version with a reed switch or the like? 

Yes, I have read the comments on Aristo units leaking, good point to make, thank you.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The reed switches will not react quickly enough, cycle fast enough, and handle enough current to directly control the fan, you really need an electrical circuit. 

The same goes for the heater, but even more so. 

Now top it off that you need some smarts to keep from burning out the heating element, it tells you to get a Zimo or other decoder to control the unit. 

Yeah, the Aristo is constructed such that weepage of fluid onto the circuit board is not preventable... so the destruction of the electrolytic caps is inevitable... 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Third time is a charm to try and type this.... 

Thanks Greg, your descritpion makes it much more clear now. 

OK, part two, reading the two (one English, other German-English) booklets from Massoth, there is really not a clear description of the analog only trigger method. All the diagrams show decoders. 

http://swl4.com/Massoth_Pulse_Smoke_Generator_User_Manual_8412x01_v100_0408.pdf 

http://www.massoth.com/dlbereich/down.php?kategorie=5&gruppe=38 

Diagrams 3 and 5 show the axle pick-up, but again, into a decoder.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

The USA Hudson has a pulsed USA smoke unit. It is driven by the reed switch chuff sensor.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The hudson has a TAS unit in it, and it has a logic input which then triggers a circuit which drives the fan. 

I was stating that a reed switch that can respond fast enough normally cannot handle the current of the fan directly. 

Sorry I did not make that clear before. 

(I do have a TAS smoke unit, and am familiar with the circuit basics) 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett, have you considered adding a Massoth Sound decoder (eMotion-S) along with the Massoth pulsed smoke maker? That way you can still run analog, but get all the benefits of the coordinated pulse/sound. I think that will end up being the most cost effective overall. The pulsed smoke makers are being advertised online at $99 right now, and I think the S decoders are around $200. That way you'd get great sound and the smoke. 

Keith 

P.S. should have mentioned I've been using the Massoth pulsed smoke maker in my LGB Heidi for a few years now--it's great.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes he did Keith, in his opening post... was looking for cheaper... he mentions the Massoth specifically. 

The "normal" model is $99?? I thought the only difference between the two models was the heating element, and that you could even upgrade one to the other... 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure how he figured there was a $100-125 difference in cost between the USA and Massoth units when the total cost of the Massoth is only $99, and that's for the high output 19V version! Am I missing something??


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys. 

The smoke units were on sale for $99, but the summer sale is over this month, and normal price is $150. Yes, cheaper, but as with other things in my life, cheaper not always better, as already pointed out by Greg. Would much rather spend $150 with no BS than $25 and pfft... 

Did not think of adding sound, but then, listening to 99.99999% of sound equiped locos they either sound like a sanding block or a dog barking in a coffee can. Are there examples on the net of this decoder's sound for a Euro loco (I want to do this to a Spreewald/Jung 2-6-0).


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes you tend to get what you pay for. Go to the Massoth website, then in the download center you can listen to all the sounds. To me if you have smoke, you need some sound to go with it! 
 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly Keith, thus my question about it being $99... I was seeing prices of $175 for the normal one, and $199 for the high output one if I remember right. 

Can you point me where to look for this price? Or is it back to $150 for sure... 

Man, if you want Euro loco sound, then you can find lots of files on the sites of the German manufacturers. 

Link to Zimo sounds:

*http://www.zimo.at/web2010/sound/tableindex.htm* 



(I had this handy because I'm doing a Z scale F3 tonight with a Zimo) 


Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Can you point me where to look for this price? 


http://cine.swl4.com/Massoth_8412301_Pulsed_Smoke_Generator_19_Volt_High_Performance.html 

I just remembered there was a good article in one of the last Gartenbahnprofi magazines about building your own pulsed smoke maker--you may want to get your hands on one. I can't remember if it was being run by a decoder or not---but I think it was. I'll have a look again... 

Keith


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, that and even on Massoth's US pricelist on their German site showed the sale price. $150-ish seems to be retail. 

Z scale F3? Don't blink (or sneeze for that matter!) 

Edit, so adding the sound decoder, does one need a trigger for smoke/chuff sound?

And would whistle and all be triggerd by track magnets or the like?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Spule 4 on 30 Sep 2011 05:46 PM 
Yeah, that and even on Massoth's US pricelist on their German site showed the sale price. $150-ish seems to be retail. 




Garrett: The MSRP for either the 5 or 19V Massoth pulse generator is $129.00. The 19V is discontinued, a redesigned version of the 5V will be available soon. The high performance version of the 19V generator is still availalbe in Germany @$149. regular MSRP, $99 sepcial.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Garrett: You could add sound by using a Massoth S decoder( for loco with existing decoders) or Massoth XLS (for loco without an existing decoders). Pulsed smoke, and chuff sychronization requires a pulse generator (Massoth 8242030), triggerring bells and whistles by track magnets requires a reed contact board (Masooth 8242020).


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you for your reply Mohammed. 

Hmnm, supposedly, the loco I have I wish to modify (LGB 22741) reportedly has a decoder in it from the factory. 

So with that, I need the S decoder then?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

You are welcome Garrett. The LGB 22741 is equipped with an on-board decoder so the S decoder is the perfect match, Is has a 3 W high performance sound amplifier with 6 independent sound channels.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed, why in the heck would the 19v one be discontinued? The 5v one draws more amperage. 19v is readily available from the tracks. 

Is this because Massoth prefers to power the unit from it's own decoder? This seems very self-centered on the surface. 

Perhaps, by reading between the lines, with all the effort to show what CV's to set for different voltages, Massoth's unit is so sensitive to supply voltage, that they decided to use 5v to ensure someone had to provide a stable, regulated supply voltage. 

Do you have any explanation? 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

greg: It is probably because Massoth prefers to power it from the decoder, where it can get stable regualted supply volatage is availabe. With 5V you can get optimized performance in both analog and digital modes, pulsed smoke at the lowest possible speeds, timed pulsed smoke when standing in analog mode. 

it may also have to do with standardization across platforms, Massoth makes elctronics for many model train manufacturers and a few are begining to offer pulse generators neatly tied in to the decoder (for sound sychronizing), adding a pulse smoke generator becomes easy, and a specifc function output could be dedicated to it (fine tuned it via program control).

I have not asked why, I am just guessing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All that makes sense, the only thing that is difficult is for the market outside Massoth, where now someone needs to supply a regulated 5v supply, and "bringing that down" from DCC track voltage means a simple 5 volt regulator would make too much heat, so to use the unit, people will need a DC to DC converter... (switching of course)... 

Thanks, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Oct 2011 09:45 AM 
All that makes sense, the only thing that is difficult is for the market outside Massoth, where now someone needs to supply a regulated 5v supply, and "bringing that down" from DCC track voltage means a simple 5 volt regulator would make too much heat, so to use the unit, people will need a DC to DC converter... (switching of course)... 

Thanks, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Oct 2011 09:45 AM 
All that makes sense, the only thing that is difficult is for the market outside Massoth, where now someone needs to supply a regulated 5v supply, and "bringing that down" from DCC track voltage means a simple 5 volt regulator would make too much heat, so to use the unit, people will need a DC to DC converter... (switching of course)... 

Thanks, Greg 

Greg: I have a feeling that others will do the same thing. Suppose you able to replace your standard smoke generator with a pulsed smoke generator with minimal technical skills, plug and pay. Massoth has a large customer base for whom this would be ideal. Every LGB steam locomotive made for the last god know how many years is equipped with a 5V smoke generator and those generator do burn out. Instead of paying $30-35 for a standard replacement, they pay $99. the first time they replace it with pulse smoke generator (worth the $70. difference), and after they are buying replacement elements from Massoth not LGB or Seuth.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I would not even try to connect a 5 volt Massoth smoke unit to the LGB 5 volt line as this line is 6.2 to 6.8 volts depending on some of the engines I have seen. 

Be sure to measure the voltage before trying this and remember that pulsed power can fake out a meter, but capacitors will store the peak voltage. 

After spending $99.00 or $149 plus shipping, plus handling/packaging charges, I would be very careful installing a unit like this. 

At the LGB maintenance clinic I attended in Mystic CT, they told us the 5 volt smoke units can run on 4 to 7 volts. 

So, I believe the higher the voltage, the more smoke these will generate.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

More interesting posts, thank you all. It never dawned on me that the loco would have a decoder in it, the box/sticker only shows the socket symbol from LGB. I bought the loco new, so it should be factory stock. 

Thanks again for the replies, some more info to chew upon...


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, the 5v creep is well known, and a good point to make. Somewhere I saw the true explanation on it, but cannot remember for the life of me what it was. 

Interesting enough, the Seuthe unit in this loco has never worked since new. I have had a rash of 5V ones that don't smoke worth a darn, but others that do. I also have a 35 year old rare-ish green 2015D with the 18v unit that will about out smoke anything even at lower speeds!


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Garrett: Are you currently setup for DCC? if you are, why not give the loco a test run on a DCC track?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I might need to try that, but the three other railways in my area are also analog....


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