# Best deal on Batteries????



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

A subject that's been covered at least a few times but always a good one as new products hit the market and old ones leave. My buddy and I are currently using Milwaukee cordless drill batteries. These are Lithium-ion 18 volt, 3 amp hour batteries that typically sell for around $75. As weight and space aren't really an issue, I'm wondering if there might be a more economical (read cheaper) battery out there that someone has had good success with? For those that haven't the read previous post, here is a picture of our battery receptical/ block. "just plug in and run!"


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

At all-battery-com, (Look under RC Cars and under Robots) I found: 

3000 MAH 14.4v NIMH $33.98 (2 7.2v packs) 
4200 MAH 7.2v NIMH $16.35 
4200 MAH 14.4v NIMH $63.00 (2 7.2v packs) 

At batteryspace.com, I found 
4500MAH 14.4v $59.95 
5000MAH 14.4v $65.95 

Couldn't find Cordless Revolution online. allbattery.com is rebuilding their web site and wouldn't let me just browse what's available.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 21 Dec 2009 07:45 AM 
Couldn't find Cordless Revolution online. allbattery.com is rebuilding their web site and wouldn't let me just browse what's available. You might want to check the ad-rotator in the upper-right of the MLS web page.

CordlessRenovations[/b]


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you want to stick with li-ion, or try nicad or nimh? 

Since you said weight and space are not an issue, you can get more amp-hours for less, and of course the chargers can be less expensive. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
You're right, the lithium batteries can be pricey. With RC planes, the weight savings is very important but here in trains an extra pound is insignificant. That said, has anyone out there found a really good (and cheap) battery for our G scale trains? I seem to recall someone mentioning using "Master mechanic" batteries? Sold by True Value hardware stores? Cordless drill packs for 20 or $30??? 
D


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, did you want the cheapest possible, or the most amp-hours for the money? ( I suggest the latter) 

I would go with a quality product from a seller of batteries, not the really cheap junk like from Harbor Freight. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, *that's* why I couldn't find them. I had the name wrong. http://www.cordlessrenovations.com/

When I go battery shopping, I just visit the various suppliers and see what's available and pick what I like and want to pay for.

I thought I'd killed one of my IED's 'cause it wouldn't charge. When I was setting up Saturday, I thought, "let's see if it has any juice." It ran 2 hours, then charged normally.


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

"cheap junk" ouch....that's a little harsh Greg, couldn't we say least expensive







? I'm a believer in "you get what you pay for", but I'm also a person that appreciates a bargain. So yes, Most amp hours for the least $$ is a good place to start. Quality, service & tech support, availability also factor in. The beauty of these forums is sharing what works. Doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone but I find the experiences of others valuable and interesting. Stuff from Harbor freight can be useful. One just needs to know what to expect.

I seem to recall Stan mentioning a "deal" on "dive light" batteries? Stan? are you there?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can have batteries that have the same published specifications, but are definitely cheap junk. 

I like a good deal also, but how can you personally tell the quality level of a battery? First you would have to test it to see if it even met the advertised specifications. Next you would have to life test it to see if it really gave you the number of charge / discharge cycles it should. 

I can tell you after using rechargeable batteries for about 40 years (and having about 100 of them and really understanding the chemistry and being an engineer): 

There is no free lunch. You can find people who sell the batteries at a low profit margin, but you will not find (other than surplus and closeout) high quality batteries at unbelievably cheap prices. 

You do get what you pay for. I'm surprised the cordless renovations guys have not come in with warnings about poor quality batteries. 

Crappy batteries can also fail and damage your loco, etc. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

I have also been using for about 4 years "all battery.com" for nimh and lately li ion. I find the price to be unbeatable and the quality to be excellent.


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello everyone, 

Greg is right...you get what you are willing to pay for. But, I'm also a firm believer that if you are just starting out in this hobby and you have a cordless drill battery-pack, let's use what you already have so your not spending alot of money upfront for a hobby you may not like or can't afford long term. Then, if you like the hobby and you want to operate your train for long periods of time...then give me a call. 

I don't offer less than a 10C cell (the 'C' rating is to give an idea of how much safe continuous current the battery will give at one time). The higher the "C" rating is, the higher price your battery-pack is. RC Car users like 20C & 30C cells because they push their devices to the limit and these cells will give you a very high amp & voltage draw for long periods of time. 

For G-Scale Train enthusiasts, we really need the amp hours more then the current draw because we won't be drawing more than 2 amps at any one time. I think it usually takes my E8 (with no cars) about 300 milliamps to start and stop, but I would suggest to buy a quality built battery-pack with at least a year's warranty or more, then to have a problem with a cheaply made pack 3 month after you purchased it.

Thanks for reading, 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations 

P.S. we are currently working on our new website www.cordlessrenovations.com/store and if you don't find what you're looking for, please give me a call...thanks


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually "C" is the Capacity of the battery in amp-hours. (or it could be milliamp hours) 

Not all batteries can discharge at 1C (meaning 1 times C), and as Rick mentioned, RC cars and planes have huge discharge requirements. 

Also, not all batteries can charge over 1C rates. 

In general we have nowhere near the requirements for discharge with our trains, normally we discharge our batteries at less than 1C. 

Example: many people will put between 2 and 4 amp hours in a large loco... but except under heavy load, the motor will draw about an amp to an amp and a half. 

We prefer longer run times. Also discharging (and charging) batteries at higher rates will wear them out sooner. 

Drill motor batteries are designed for higher discharge rates and quicker charge rates, batteries we want would be optimized to have more charge/discharge cycles total, i.e. longer life. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

It has been my experience over 20 years with both NiMh and NiCd cells where they are made also has a bearing on the quality. 
I refuse point blank to buy Chinese made cells and only ever buy Sanyo cells that are made in Japan. 
No doubt there are good quality cells made in China but I am not willing to do the field testing to determine which ones are good and which ones are not. 
I stick with Japanese made Sanyo cells because they are *ALWAYS* good quality. 
Sure they cost more than the el cheapos but as Greg said, you only get what you pay for in this World.


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

I would certainly concur with the thoughts of buying quality batteries as I've been down the "cheap" road trying to find the best way to run with batteries. Most of the "cheap" stuff lasted a couple of months and then died. 

The comments about the current draw requirements for train power are right on. We don't need that initial "blast" of power provided by the Li-Po's that the car and airplane guys use. Nor do we need the "quick charge" to get running or flying again. Longevity is the guideline for us. I prefer the "interchangeable" batteries so I can just keep running. That's just the way I run my trains. I've been very happy with Li-ion packs. Each one of us has different ways to run and there are solutions for each. That's what makes this hobby so much fun and MLS folks provide so much input to help us make our choices. 

Thanks so much for those comments, guys. It sure helps explain the best battery power for trains. 

We can look for some great advancements in the near future for longer life and longer run time batteries so the running of battery powered trains will be greatly enhanced.


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Good to see you posting Stan!


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Jerry.... I'm still functioning at about 98%. That's pretty close to normal..







Whatever that is. 

Did you get any icing today???? Looks like it came right close to you.


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I picked these NiMH batteries strictly on AH/Dollar. Since I had a big tender to put them in, I didn't need the small size of Lithium. I don't use a fraction of the 38 Amps they're rated to deliver, but like the 2 hour run time. Since they're designed to be discharged in 10 minutes, I don't much stress them, except when I walk away and don't notice they've run down. Oops.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, I don't see a link to what you are talking about.... but let's be careful not to confuse people. 

There is an amp/hour CAPACITY rating... I am SURE you did not buy a 38 amp hour capacity battery. 

Then, especially in r/c cars/planes, there is a MAXIMUM DISCHARGE RATE, which is normally expressed in how many times C (the capacity) it can be discharged at, like 38C, or 38 times the capacity, so if it was a 2 amp hour CAPACITY battery, 38C DISCHARGE RATE means 38 * 2 amps for a short time. 

Lets help keep people from being confused about the difference between TOTAL CAPACITY and MAXIMUM DISCHARGE RATE. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. discharge rate is important, for example, using an Aristo 2 amp hour battery on a large loco or locos can have too high a discharge rate.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Short post, Stan, good to hear that you are functioning at 98%, but we never expected you to become normal ha ha! 

(seriously, good job!) 

Regards, Greg


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, OK , OK...I got it. You guys don't like cheap, poor quality products. Greg, you're an engineer and probably don't like to color outside the lines. I get it.... and I don't want to waste my money buying junk either. but... sometimes one can find a mass marketed item designed to work in something that there are zillions of out there and although it was not designed for a model train, and although it might be overkill in some of it's characteristics. It might just work wonderfully in our trains a n d be a bargain because there are zillions of them made!. That is what my original question was about. I'm asking if anyone has found a good (meaning price & quality.....getting the job done) source of batteries for our trains. Yes I could call on a company that will build me a nice, high qualiity battery pack to my specific specs, but I would pay a premium. The Milwaukee drill packs we have been using have been great. 3.0 amp hours for approx $75 with a built in strength indicator. An idiot proof charger, and all obtainable from a variety of sources. If someone out there has found an "off the shelf" pack for a "what-ever" that they have found to work well in their trains, and are a "bargain", I'd like to hear about it.


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, I think I just experienced some MLS censoring magic.....now you see it, now you don't.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually I like to color outside the lines, engineers are probably the largest group in the world responsible for innovation. 

But, the point was there's no free lunch on quality. Buy a cheaper battery, get shorter life and lower quality. 

Now, you are right in general, find something sold in the zillions and you should save money. 

BUT! When you buy the batteries for a drill, you must remember 2 things, one is that you are paying extra for a heavier case, contacts, and sometimes extra electronics and leds. So that fact alone may cancel out the advantage of buying something manufactured in the millions. 

The other factor is that people make money on replacement parts. People rarely research the cost of maintaining their new tool, i.e. how long do the batteries last (years) and what do they cost to replace? Companies make money on replacement packs, pricing them just high enough to keep buying batteries. 

In the case of rechargeable batteries, I think these 2 factors cancel out any advantage finding a ready-made battery pack (for another device) that will be suitable and that is produced in the millions. 

Believe me, with the hobbies that I have, I normally have almost 100 rechargeable battery packs at any one time in my house, so I have looked over the last 40 years for cheaper solutions. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Sailbode, I have found and I am using Nicad/Nimh batteries from AllBattery, and theyre chargers!! Just found out recently they are also on Evil Bay too!! If I can find the link I will post it here! They are less on Evil Bay than their own site at times so check both against each other! I have 3 battery cars with each one containing 2- 2300 or 3800 mah re-chargeable nicads wired in series. They also sell the wiring harness to do this with too! and have had them up and running for approx 2 years no problems yet! Sometimes you can get a charger battery combo pack for under $50 or less. Regal 

Here is the link to what I use along with chargers and the wiring harness pre made up check em out!!

2 7.2V 3800mAh High NiMH Battery Pack For RC Car Tamiya - eBay (item 330382371511 end time Dec-30-09 12:54:47 PST)


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Wow, I think I just experienced some MLS censoring magic.....now you see it, now you don't. 
Just to clarify MLS policy, we encourage manufacturers' participation on these forums. That kind of direct interaction between them and customers is valuable not only to the manufacturers and customers, but also others who may be looking to learn about products and services. However, we do not allow manufacturers to use the forums specifically to list products and prices. They are welcome to use the forums to discuss their products, then follow up with a note to the tune of "Please see my web site for pricing, etc." or to PM the individual who is looking for information with details and pricing. 

It does inherently get a bit grey when forum members quote prices from retailers with whom they have no relationship beyond that of a customer (such as Torby's references above). On one hand, it makes sense to allow a manufacturer to respond with their own pricing, but we've established these policies to keep the forums from being abused as a platform for free advertising. That's why we allow the manufacturers to mention their products, but ask that they refer to their own web site for pricing, etc. We also have the "News" forum in which manufacturers can publish new product announcements, etc. They are welcome to include pricing in those posts. (The "News" forum is moderated prior to being published.) 

Later, 

K


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Dec 2009 09:10 AM 
Actually I like to color outside the lines, engineers are probably the largest group in the world responsible for innovation. 

But, the point was there's no free lunch on quality. Buy a cheaper battery, get shorter life and lower quality. 

Now, you are right in general, find something sold in the zillions and you should save money. 

BUT! When you buy the batteries for a drill, you must remember 2 things, one is that you are paying extra for a heavier case, contacts, and sometimes extra electronics and leds. So that fact alone may cancel out the advantage of buying something manufactured in the millions. 

The other factor is that people make money on replacement parts. People rarely research the cost of maintaining their new tool, i.e. how long do the batteries last (years) and what do they cost to replace? Companies make money on replacement packs, pricing them just high enough to keep buying batteries. 

In the case of rechargeable batteries, I think these 2 factors cancel out any advantage finding a ready-made battery pack (for another device) that will be suitable and that is produced in the millions. 

Believe me, with the hobbies that I have, I normally have almost 100 rechargeable battery packs at any one time in my house, so I have looked over the last 40 years for cheaper solutions. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

"But, the point was there's no free lunch on quality. Buy a cheaper battery, get shorter life and lower quality. 

Now, you are right in general, find something sold in the zillions and you should save money. 

BUT! When you buy the batteries for a drill, you must remember 2 things, one is that you are paying extra for a heavier case, contacts, and sometimes extra electronics and leds. So that fact alone may cancel out the advantage of buying something manufactured in the millions."

And again, this is why I ask if others have had success using a particular "off the shelf" battery! Maybe not a free lunch, but a much better deal than we might get from a specific, limited production supplier. We've already seen this from several of the folks who post here on MSL....including myself. Maybe I'm wrong, let's ask Rick if he can sell an 18 volt 3.0 amp hour li-ion pack with built in low voltage protection and a very useful charge status indicator for $75???? (apples to apples). And we haven't even covered the reality that there are different merchants selling the exact same products for different prices. If you prefer to buy quality products from a reputable specific supplier to get what you specifically want and prefer not to compromise and are willing to "pay the price", that's great....for you, but not what I'm asking or looking for. I'd like to hear from those that have innovatively figured out that they can use a significantly cheaper "off the shelf" product that "get's the job done" and they are happy with the performance and price.


I'm sensing a failure to communicate???....sorry if I'm not making myself clear or I'm missing something here.
Don


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Don. 

I think we understand your requirements. 
Maybe the lack of an answer that fits your criteria, indicates that what you desire is simply not possible.


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

*Perhaps Tony,*
*but if I look back in the history of this forum I find just the sort of answer I'm looking for such as:*
*http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/35/aft/112716/afv/topic/Default.aspx*
*I have seen one or two from Stan as well and a few others in the past who seem to be on the same page as me. With battery technology advancing rapidly we're seeing the price of Lithium batteries coming down. New, different, sometimes better, sometimes cheaper products introduced all the time I will never presume to "know it all" and thus ask of those around me " Hey what's new!" "What have you tried that worked...and feel free to share what didn't work". The response that I seem to be getting is the age old lecture "you get what you pay for"???
*

*"Believe me, with the hobbies that I have, I normally have almost 100 rechargeable battery packs at any one time in my house, so I have looked over the last 40 years for cheaper solutions" *
*sooo have you stopped looking? are you saying I shouldn't be looking?? I thought that was what we do here?
Like you, I'm still looking (and reading and asking here).*
*Merry Christmas*
*Don
*


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By sailbode on 21 Dec 2009 06:25 PM 
Greg, 
You're right, the lithium batteries can be pricey. With RC planes, the weight savings is very important but here in trains an extra pound is insignificant. That said, has anyone out there found a really good (and cheap) battery for our G scale trains? I seem to recall someone mentioning using "Master mechanic" batteries? Sold by True Value hardware stores? Cordless drill packs for 20 or $30??? 
D 
Don, you were out of the li-ion arena many posts ago... you are looking for lower cost... your words...

Now you start mentioning li-ion again in you last post.


*Today*, apparently, what you desire is not available... I never stop looking, but you are all over the place with this one.

Quality to quality, lowest cost available.... my point is once again, quality drill pack and other batteries won't necessarily be cheaper than buying "raw cells" and an inexpensive charger. Harbor Freight cheapies will be just that, lower quality and no more value.


I have given all the caveats about the exceptions before. Your responses seem to be more agitated when you are not getting the answers you want.

This is a public forum, and you have to accept the fact that others may not have the same opinions. Starting to make pointed remarks about people will not get you lots of help in the future. 


There are a number of people on this forum, and who have responded to your thread who know the current and near future of rechargeable batteries. While new stuff is being invented all the time, the drive to smaller and lighter batteries will not make them less expensive than nicads and nickle metal hydrides in the near future.


Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't help you with Liithium stuff. 

Although I can see the benefits, I still won't touch them myself for general use. I have one pack in a demo loco for long term testing. 
Others are having great success. 

I don't do NiMh either except for the AA size NiMh/Alkaline hybrids. 

I will still use NiCd in SubC only as long as I can get them. They are still the longest lasting (in terms of the number of recharges) all chemistries. 
I have never used any drill pack batteries at all.


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Tony, thanks 

Greg...I give up


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Don, let's see if I can help you out. 

You will probably never find a deal on lithium-ion and certainly not lithium-polymer battery-packs, due to the cost of the PCB circuit board and time it takes to manufacture one. And, yes to your question about 3amp hour lithium-ion with the PCB circuit install for around $75.00. But, your best bet is to buy a battery-pack at the end of it's date code listing, for example: Once every other month Home Depot offers a two-pack of DeWalt 18V 2400mah DW9096 cordless drill battery-packs for $109.00...not a bad price, but what their not telling you is that the warranty has almost lasped. You can also find deals at Menards with their "off-the-name-brand" (AKA Harbor Freight Tools) battery-packs for around $39.00. But, you will find your best deals when manufacturer's buy in big quantities which brings the price down, so if your club members need batteries, buy at the same time...you might get a deal. Also, Tenergy gives deals on battery-packs which are not listed on their website, at the end of each quarter...you'll need to call. About, every 45 days starting around January 15th most suppliers give their shipments in from China and need to get rid of all stock...these are the times to buy. 

Tony, all NiCd Sub C cells were designed for use in cordless drill battery-packs. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Rick, good info.
We have tried the conventional way of doing this with several expensive Nimh packs (over $100 @) from a quality supplier like Cordless and have not had good success. Not because of the quality of the pack, but because of the way we were using them. Multiple trains, multiple packs of varying sizes (all 18V), some trains run much more than others, some trains drawing much more than others, some trains charged and then left on the shelf for 2 months and then expected to perform...we also had charger issues to make matters worse. So because of our lack of diligence to maintain each pack properly we were not happy. Trains neglected for a month or so and then an unexpected guest shows up and we want to show off our trains and the big A-B-A with 10 heavies gets to the back 40 stretch and stops....arrrgg. So for us, in our situation, the "portable" drill packs have been a better option. We don't get the 6 hour runs times like we did with some of the "bricks" but we never run em that long anyway, and when we do, it's a simple thing to walk out to where the train has stopped and pop in a new pack. After 2 hours we're typicaly on our 3rd martini and the trains start to get blurry anyway







. So perhaps on top of all the variables I've mentioned we can add battery chemistry to the equation. and here I'm admittedly a little fuzzy. This is how I see the different battery types stacking up:


Li-ion= very good all around performence (power to weight/ size and good shelf life) but some of the most expensive
Nicd = ok performence (but have memory issues), very good life span, ok shelf life, good price...sometimes cheap

Nmhi= better than Nicd performence (less memory issues), poor shelf life, ok price 

Does that sound about right? 

I still would like to hear from others....what they have found to work well for them and why and what kind of usage. I really enjoy this sharing of ideas and experiences and find it very beneficial. Like the last page in Garden Railways "if only I'd known" 

Perhaps a new thread on installations would be a good one?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is really no such thing as "memory" in nicads.... when a nicad loses a large amount of it's ability to store charge, it's almost always poor charging (technique or the charger) or letting them sit discharged for a long time. Nimh batteries can also have similar things happen, although the symptoms are slightly different, as well as charging technique. 

At the moment "bang for the buck", ignoring weight and volume which you said was ok, is really amp-hours per buck. Nicads will still give you the lowest cost although some nimh will come close. I would have to recalculate gel cells, since they are really cheap too. 

As I read all of your posts, #1 priority is cost, so I'm being consistent in focusing on that when trying to help you. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg, I appreciate your input and knowledge. Sorry if I got cranky.
I'm not actually in need of new batteries myself, although I will be in the future. I just find this stuff interesting and like to hear what others have found to be working...(especially if there's an almost free lunch in there







) Even if what they're using would not do the trick for me I find the information useful. Yea, bang for buck is important, but as I've stated, we were willing to spend big bucks for what we thought (and were told) would work for us and were dissapointed. We've probably spent well over $800 in batteries and another $250 in chargers in the last 3 years and the results have been less than satisfactory. Li-ion drill packs have been working, but may not be the best of the best for our situation. We're trying to ask a lot of questions and listen to personal testimonies before we go down the next road. Of course for us, the packs don't have to be "drill packs", but we've discovered that for us, portability is very important. I was sold on the plug in pack concept, but Stan's comment about certain packs going out of style is a good point. Your statements about Nicds being best bang also has a ring of truth, so I'm thinking ahead to trying a Nicd pack with a "deans connector". 
I noticed Regals comment on using 7.2v packs. Those are probably R/C car packs , yes? 2 in series or 3? How do 14V packs compare with 18V packs? We don't run our trains fast so maybe we would be fine with 14s....? I'm guessing this will vary from train to train? I wonder what the lowest exceptable voltage might be?
D


----------



## Chompers (Jan 8, 2008)

Don, 

As a RC airplane hobbyist i have to dabble in batteries. 
and like here on MLS people at RCG have had quite intense debates over batteries. there are two groups: the pay $200.00 because it has a 1 year warranty and its from my Local hobby shop-group; And the I'll pay 32.99 from a company that sells millions of these things to all of us modelers on the RC forum with an awesome track record-group. as an airplane guy i have personally gone the rout of a 'bunch of cheaper (yet magically made on the same assembly floor at the same time as the expensive batts.) batteries. i compared the cost of an 800mah 20C battery from the site and the cost of a 400 mah 10C batt from my LHS. the batt from HK was $4.00 the batt from the lhs was $14- a battery of lesser quality and half the capacity cost 3.5 times as much at the LHS than on line. people have been using zippy batteries for a while in the rc community, and when used in rc applications these batteries are pushed HARD! but after much trial they have shown that they last, and can even exceed the premium brands. Just because a company doesn't put a $100 mark up on there items doesn't mean that what they sell is junk. 

My point is high quality batteries (and chargers) no longer cost an arm and a leg, they are quite affordable now. 

Don i don't know what MLS rules about posting information from non sponsors is so i won't post it here, but if you would like the name of the site and some other relevant information email me at: 


EDIT don contacted me info removed 


take care 
philip


----------

