# Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet.



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

2-8-8-2 USRA Mallet Steam LOCOMOTIVE Art -21610 # 2042 Great Northern & TENDER Art-22412 I would like to know all there is to know about this Aristo-Craft mallet and tender or where I can find this information. Thank you.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome T3.

Here are some instructions I found on the web. Scroll down to the Aristo Mallet. They look very useful.

http://www.rayman4449.com/gardenrr_mods.htm

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you, I now have this valuable info. I would also like to know if with the name and number provided one can find out the date of manufacture and version of this locomotive. I have the dimensions, I would also like to know the weight.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

The engine by itself weighs 14 pounds. That is without the tender. It has a drawbar pull of about 5 pounds.

I bought the decals for my Iron Ore Train back in 2009. I had the engine for several years before I put the ore train together. I guess is that it was made between 7 and 10 years ago.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Great, thanks again, I guess I'l just wait till it gets here now.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

There are a lot of potentially helpful posts here. Unfortunately for a new member it can be a little confusing. I suggest that you log into Active Topics. That lets you see everything that is being posted regardless of the forum.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

This mallet is I am told 1: 29 scale , Bachmann big scale is 1 : 20.3, and Aristo C 16 which is considerably smaller than Bachmann is 1: 24 scale . So 1: 29 must be really small yet the mallet is an extremely big loco. I guess the human figures for the mallet must be dwarfs4 next to Bachmann G scale figures. And the cars made for the mallet must have been very large in real life and about the size of Bachmann cars. Are there cars and human figures made in 1: 29 scale?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The difference is the size of the car or engine in the real world. 

Models in 1:29 and 1:32 are based upon standard gauge trains. What you see in the real world. The gauge of the track is 4' 8.5" between the rails.

Trains modeled in 1:20.3 and 1:22.2/24 are based upon narrow gauge. Much of North American Narrow gauge is/was 3' between the rails.

This makes big small and small appear big. 

Here is a picture of a Standard Gauge box car with several Narrow Gauge freight cars. 










In real life standard gauge rolling stock dwarfed narrow gauge cars and engines. In our Large Scale models it is just the reverse. To make the cars and engines run on the 45mm gauge track, and be correct to scale. Standard gauge rolling stock is smaller that Narrow Gauge stock.

Many narrow gauge freight cars were about 30' long. Standard Gauge cars are 40' or longer. You have to understand the the scales and the prototypes to make sense of all this.

Chuck

In real life you could probably put 2 or 3 C-16s next to the prototype of your mallet and they wouldn't match the length of the Y6a Mallet of the N&W (the engine your model was based on). The C-16 would be dwarfed by the Mallet.

I had a discussion today at a train event. He was running a live steam C-16 (1:20.3) and it was passing my Hudson (1:29), the size difference wasn't that much on our 45mm track. We talked about the similar size. In real life the C-16 would have been dwarfed by the Hudson. I wish I had a picture.

I can't find the length of the Y6a, but it's weight was 582,900 pounds. The C-16 weighted 69,110 pounds. That is a big difference!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

A six foot tall man in 1:22.3 scale would be 6 foot = 72" . 72" ÷ 22.3 =3.23" tall. 
The same man in 1:29 scale would be 72" ÷ 29 = 2.48"tall
If one places a figure of a 6 foot man meant for 1:29 scale in a 1.23 scale train 
2.48" X 22.3 = 55.3" = 4.6 foot! Just a child or rather a dwarf is the figure has a mustache. So not a good idea to use a figure ment for 1:29 scale in a 1:22.3 scale train. 
If one places a figure of a 6 foot man meant for 1.23 scale in a 1:29 scale train 
3.23 X 29 = 7 foot tall. An extremely tall man.
Right or wrong?


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

1:29 is really in-between scales G and O is it not?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

No it is not. 1:29 is a scale that AristoCraft came up with to make the 1:32 standard gauge cars and engines a little larger for more of a WOW factor. A lot of LGB's more modern freight cars are close to 1:29, but I do not think that they ever used "1:29" in their publications.

If there is a "G" scale it is probably 1:22.5/24. G gauge (sometimes referred to as gauge 1) is our track, 45mm between the rails. "O" gauge is an entirely different track and a smaller scale. O scale trains will not run on our track. Google O gauge to see what is the distance between the rails in that scale. 

1:20.3 (Fn3), 1:22.5/24, 1:29 and 1:32 are common scales that run on our 45mm track. There are other less common scales that also use our track.


Most other scales use a constant scale for their letter designation and vary the width of the track. For instance HO and HOn3 are the same scale. But the track is different. We keep the track the same and vary the scale depending upon the prototype. That is why 1:20.3 narrow gauge rolling stock is larger than 1:29 and 1:32 standard gauge rolling stock. Where as in real life the opposite is true.

This takes some time to sink in. Most of us had problems with this in the beginning.

Chuck

Regarding people. Fortunately we come in different sizes. When I use people around a house or station, I place them the in the scene for visual effect, not scale accuracy. If I were going to put people in a passenger car, I would try to get scale appropriate people. Charles Ro (USAT) has passengers in his streamliners (1:29) that look appropriate for the cars. They would not look appropriate in a 1:20.3 or 1:22.5/24 passenger car. But people standing or sitting outside should probably match the buildings around them rather that the train running by. All of my buildings are POLA or PIKO. They are about 1:22.5, so that is the general size of my people, even though the train passing could be 1:20.3, 1:22.5/24, or 1:29. I run all three scales, but generally not at the same time.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I would like to have figures or maybe just one figure to stand beside in or on the Mallet with the purpose of showing the massive locomotives size in relation to a human, so I figure that if the mallet is accurately 1:29 scale it must be 29 times smaller than a real mallet regardless of the distance between rails. Likewise the model of the human. The model made by Aristo-Craft being 28 inches long so should the real mallet be 28 times 29 that is 812 inches long, (67 ft.) . According to the wikipedia the USRA 2 8 8 2 Mallet was 66ft. 1.5 inches long , close enough. 
Now the rails must have their scale too, and as you have clarified for me the different gauge names make reference to the scale of the track and not the scale of model trains. As I gather because of convenience to the model train manufacturers and so that trains of slightly different scales can run on the same track the scale of rails does not always exactly match the scale of the trains that run on them. But just as you are more interested on the scale of model people in relation to the buildings around them than to the train that passes, I as I mentioned am more interested in the scale of model people in relation to the locomotives. Scale is really quite simple, just a matter of multiplying and dividing. Much more complex is understanding a set of conventions that have more to do with tradition and history than with simple arithmetics.
Then there is I know the matter of the size of a train in relation to the track it runs on, this both in models and prototypes, but that is a different subject.

I understand when you say " 1:20.3 narrow gauge rolling stock is larger than 1:29 and 1:32 standard gauge rolling stock" Naturally if the track remains the same size it will look narrow in proportion to a bigger train. .But please explain . "Where as in real life the opposite is true."


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Here's a chart put together by Scot Lawrence, one of our members a while back that does a pretty good job of illustrating what goes on with the size of the trains and people relative to the track:










Of importance to the discussion here is the bottom tier of the image, which shows the multiple scales all running on the same gauge track. You'll notice as the scale increases, so do the size of the trains and the people who accompany them. 

In terms of putting people on the train, there's one rule and only one rule I follow - _*the scale of the people must match the scale of the train*_. If the locomotive/caboose/passenger car is 1:20.3, then the people must be 1:20.3. If the locomotive is 1:29, the people have to be 1:29. It's the only way the illusion can successfully be carried off. 

Yes, there is some "wiggle room" in that people come in a variety of shapes and sizes, and--to a point--you can get away with using smaller figures meant for 1:24 trains on your 1:29 trains, but there's no way, no how a 1:20.3 figure (3.5" tall) is gonna look remotely correct inside of a 1:29 locomotive cab, where he'd at the tallest he should be around 2.5" tall. There's wiggle room, but that's definitely stretching things a LOT!

Another rule that I usually follow is to ignore any number of scale stated on the packaging a product comes in. It's just a number, and when it comes to figures especially, usually quite suspect in nature. I've seen figures labeled "G scale" that are actually smaller than 1:32 when you measured them, and figures labeled "1:29" that would make any NBA talent scout very rich. Always judge a figure by its real height, then convert that height to your chosen scale to see how appropriate it might be. If you're looking online and it doesn't say, e-mail the manufacturer and ask how tall their figures are.

Later,

K


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Totally agree. 
Looking at the bottom part of the chart I think I see what Chuk means by "Where as in real life the opposite is true." The train furthest to the right is clearly the biggest model train, but it looks rather small because the model man standing besides it is also the biggest and in fact so big that the model train is not even twice as tall as the man. While on the opposite side of the chart 1:29 scale, the much smaller model train is about 3 times the size of the model man making the model train look humangus. So clearly the model train that is biggest represents the smallest prototype and the smallest model train represents the biggest prototype.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

P.S. And the reason this happens is because the track is the same size.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

"By jove he's got it".

As they say one picture is worth a thousand words. Scot's masterful illustration has been used by many of us on many occasions. I always have a copy with me at trains shows.

Chuck


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> 1:29 is really in-between scales G and O is it not?


No, not really.
"G" is 1/22.5
1/29 is 1/29. 
O scale is 1/48.

1/29 is MUCH closer to G than it is to O.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)




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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Great pictures Scot!


Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

What I need now ( besides a nice cold beer) is figures between 2 1/2" and 2 1/4" tall of grown men clad in early 20th century civil clothes and train uniforms to place around a for the time being stationary 2-8-8-2 Mallet. O


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Aye, there's the rub. If I recall, "Life-Like" used to produce a line of so-called "G-scale" figures that worked very well for 1:29. I don't believe they're still in production, but keep your eyes open on ebay and at swap meets. Also, this is a good time to keep an eye open at the Christmas display sections at the stores. A lot of the LeMax, etc. figures work very well for 1:29. The trouble is finding ones that aren't standing in a semi-circle wearing earmuffs and singing Christmas carols, but if the selection is good enough, you can usually find a few gems in there. Hint: the short edge of a credit card is just over 2" tall, so if the figure is the same height or maybe a head taller than your credit card, you've got a winner!

Later,

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles Ro has seated engineers and crew in the cabs of his USAT 1:29 engines. You might call the store to see if they sell them separately. I know you can get the seated passengers separately, but I don't know if there are any standing people available.

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Since you want the figures for a display, rather than part of a layout where visitors will be observing from all directions, I had the following idea.

Make you own 2 dimensional people. Photograph any sized figure from several different directions, front, back, left, right, 3/4ed, etc. and print them so that they are the "correct" height for 1:29. Glue them to a piece of cardboard or foam board and carefully cut them out. Glue them to a small stand and position them around the engine.

Here is a picture I just took of some randomly chosen figures, actually the only ones I could easily find.

You could even use pictures of you and your family, in appropriate costume of course. Or scan suitable pictures from other sources.













Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks again ChukI've been considering your idea, picturing it, nice. I described it to my wife, to my surprise she offered to make the figures, she has her own ideas though, she wants to make them of plasticine, I suggested they might sort of look like their melting when the weather gets hot, nonsense said she, "I know a way to make them stay hard, and then paint them white to later paint them in life like colors" So of course I'm going to let her give it a go, if and when she succeeds I would like to post them here.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

You're a smart/fortunate man. 

Unlike the smaller scales which are largely indoors and in the basement, wives can and do participate in "G". Nancy has always been interested in the gardening that goes with the railroad and she is very good at finding buildings and people to populate our empire. She has found neat buildings at craft shows and other non RR shops. She even looks forward to going into train shops to look for things. She enjoys arranging the buildings and figures around the layout. "G" is not just a male hobby. There are women who are regular posters here on MLS and have a lot to contribute.

If you can get your wife interested in some phase of the hobby, you are way ahead.

Chuck

Please have her post pictures of her progress. My art skills are limited to stick men, that is why I suggested using photographs. Even my stick men don't look too good.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The tender has arrived first, it comes in a separate mail, I'm still waiting for the Loco. I can see a speaker in there, also a white battery the size and shape of a 9v, a lot of electrical components, two metal chrome microswitches in the bottom of the tender, wires in both trucks near the wheels and finally electrical connectors on wires on both ends of the tender presumably to connect to the loco and a car behind. Is all this standard? Somehow I hope it is not standard equipment . I wonder if I'm in luck and the mallet has quality sound installed.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

It is a start. Find a local club and have them look at it. It is hard to diagnose what you have or don't have from a distance. Pictures, would help, but eyes on the ground are the best.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I direct construction all day, when I'm thru I'm so tired I eat and to bed, when I have spare time I catch up with the train hobby, I have no time just yet to look for and visit garden railroads. Here are picks of what I described in case someone can guess what more could be inside if anything , the battery is kinetic rechargeable 9v.
Ps unable to load files.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Why is it so complicated to attach files? What is the attachment key for?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3 

There is a forum here that has a lot of answers and suggestions on site questions and problems.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/32-forum-site-issues-questions/

In that forum is a thread on posting pictures.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/32-f...st-photos-easy-way-non-1st-class-members.html

I hope there is something in there that can help.

Chuck

You have probably answered this, but where do you live? Someone here might live near you and can offer observational help. I have looked through some of your threads here and on the Bachmann site, but I can't find where you might have mentioned it.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

trainstrainstrains said:


> I direct construction all day, when I'm thru I'm so tired I eat and to bed, when I have spare time I catch up with the train hobby, I have no time just yet to look for and visit garden railroads. Here are picks of what I described in case someone can guess what more could be inside if anything , the battery is kinetic rechargeable 9v.
> Ps unable to load files.



Underneath the Quick Reply box, is an option to; Go Advanced.
Click it, scroll down to Manage Attachments, click it.
A box opens, you can load up to 10 pics. After you've made your pic picks, click on Upload at bottom of that box window, then after your files are accepted, close the box and finish your post and send.
Take a nap.... I do more and more.....
Welcome,
John


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

it does not work for me.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

but it did at last.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

T3

All Aristo engines that I have, have a plug like your first picture, fore and aft. There is a track/battery switch on the engine. Something I wish more manufacturers did. That plug is to MU engines or to easily bring in power from a battery car, something I take advantage of.

My sound system on my mallet has two switches on the bottom of the tender. One for on/off and one for volume control. Older sound systems used a battery as part of the system. Now they use a capacitor (?).

Until you open up the tender we won't know for sure.

Chuck

My only further comment concerning the plug in picture one is that it is white. On both of my engines the plug is black. Others May comment, perhaps they used what ever plug they had at the time.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The plug at the other end is black. How do I open the tender. I have looked without success for instructions.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a different tender, but on mine the coal load comes off. If you can remove it, you should be able to see more innards.

Chuck

It has been a long time since I was into the tender, but I think there are some screws that secure the top to the base. Remove those and then slide the top forward or back. I think there are some hooks that help hold the two pieces together. Be gentle, I could be wrong.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I'm in bed already, I'll have a look tomorrow, but as I recall it looks one piece on top with no screws, all screws on the bottom. Thanks, you have been so much help in both forums.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The screws go through the bottom to secure the top. The screw heads are on the bottom.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Any screws I'd best leave alone?


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The locomotive has arrived and all I can say is WOW! It dwarfs the tender, what workmanship. My respects to Aristo Craft. I knew it would probably be great but this is ridiculously grand. I have never seen anything like it before. Makes me feel Aristo-Craft was a real aristocrat among model train builders.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Any one know where to find the instruction manual for the Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I just looked at mine, I could get the coal load off, but that was it. I can't really figure out how it comes apart. 

Sorry, I hope someone can tell us how to do it.

Chuck


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Sorry, trainstrainstrains, but it's not. American O scale is 1:48; European is 1:43. The common scales for gauge 1 track as standard (4' 8 1/2") are 3/8" or 10mm to the foot. 1:32 is 3/8" exactly. G scale as developed by LGB uses gauge 1 track as meter gauge and is 1:22.5. Fn3 uses gauge 1 as three-foot gauge and is 1:20.3 Somebody could work up at least a master's thesis about the ancient toy train track gauges and the scales invented to rationalize their use for model railroads. 1:29 amounts to oversize trains on gauge 1 track, which works out to a prototype gauge of 4' 2 1/2". The trains are bigger, but the gauge is undersize. Go figure.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

That question was answered several weeks ago. Some of us in"G" sometimes like scale and sometimes couldn't care less. I run scale trains when I bring out my 1:20.3 Colorado narrow gauge, when I bring out LGB and 1:29 I enjoy it and know it isn't "correct". I prefer 1:29 to 1:32.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

https://www.docstoc.com/pass?download=1&docId=86906333
This is a link to the Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 Mallet instruction book, unfortunately one has to subscribe to a book club, $3 one month and stop after 1 month no problem. I would but I don't like the paying methods, card or telephone. No Paypall. 
So best if someone can send the PDF doc.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Go here:
http://elmassian.com/trains/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips/aristo-motive-power/mallet

There are FIVE subpages "below" that one (look at the menu on the left)... one page is on disassembly.

send me your email and I'll send you the "exploded parts diagram"

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Very informative Greg , thanks, I read the 5 pages you recommended. I hope you have the exploded diagram of the tender corresponding to the Great Northern 2-8-8-2 Mallet which is what I really need, I believe Chuck needs the exploded diagram of a different 2-8-8-2 model mallet tender .


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Tender Diagram missing bell and number plate*

I was mistaken the instruction manual came with the mallet, I have it, but there are no exploded diagrams in it. The bell and one of the number plates on the front of the loco are missing. The bell appears to have been about 12 mm tall. The bell from my Bachmann 2 ton shay is slightly bigger but might work. I could order one from Bachmann if they have it. When I have time I'll have a go at making the missing number plate but it looks difficult.
I've opened the tender it was easy, six screws under and off with the top. I will try to post the photos of the inside, there is definitely a sound system in there, a board with 8 connectors on each side, two of them connected to the speaker some to the two switches under the tender, two to the 9v rechargeable battery. The board is ontop of a black box with "charged & tested in 1999" written on it. There are three cables that have a white connector on one end and go to the wheels, this was and is inside but I see no where to connect this.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*try to post pictures of inside of tender for identifying.*

Pictuŕes of inside the tender.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*one last pic*

The black box.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a Sierra sound system. Good sound system, but long gone and no longer available.
The "black box" is the 6 volt gel cell battery that backed up the track voltage as a stay alive when stopped.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks Tony Walsham , Just what I needed to hear, I looked it up and it is apparently polyphonic and rather good quality. I also read that the rechargeable battery can be ruined if not used regularly, that some people change it for a nicad pack of equivalent values. Since this particular battery was probably not in use for some time it is likely to be finished. What about the 9v battery also connected to the board? Does this have a different function or is it an aid to the main battery? And the two switches under the tender? How to use them? I hope you know . Because I'm itching to see and hear this loco go....


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I put the mallet on the track, it made a whining sound and did not move, then it moved a little. Then more whining noises and the lights dimmed out, full throttle and nothing, little by little it started to move, but I had to put full throttle for it to start moving and then it stops after a few seconds, full throttle again and stop. I have a feeling that the little 1 amp power supply has something to do with this, I'm going to try a 3 amp power supply tomorrow. The sound system is not working at all..,HELP.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as the switches go, one should be an on/off. It should hold when you push it one direction or the other. It should always be in the off position when not running. Otherwise you will drain the battery. The other switch is for volume. It is a momentary switch. To increase the volume move it in one direction and to decrease the volume move it into the other. You may need to charge the battery for the sound system to function properly.

That engine has two motors. A 1amp power supply might not do it. 3 might be marginal for longer trains, tight curves and any grades.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Hope*

So the switch that returns to the middle by itself must be the volume. Hopefully since no sound was heard the vol is off. I was a bit worried of faulty motors, but it definitely feels like too little juice. I'll post what happens when I use the three amp power after I let the construction workers in and finish breakfast . Thanks


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The other switch must be in the on position to get sound also.

Chuck


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Slow and steady it runs....*

Yes it works smoothly with a 3 amp power supply hooked to the Stationmaster 5 I bought for my once every half hour project. Top speed slow but steady on very decently. I bought the Stationmaster 5 from RR Concepts to use with much smaller locos. Please recommend a simple more powerful power supply worthy of this machine. The loco does not work when I try to make the sound function. Perhaps the power is still not sufficient for charging the probably ruined battery and making the loco go at the same time? I must fix the sound now. But clearly I need another power supply to run this properly.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*A picture of the culprit*

Beautiful 2042


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.amazon.com/MRC-Power-10-Amp-Pack/dp/B0006O9BCI/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I have one, many people have bought them and are happy with them 10 amps and 24 volts...

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Oooops
Unavailable and not sure when it will be restocked ... too popular?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just found a link to show the item, shopping is TTT's job ha ha.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Can someone who has an Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet please post some close ups from differen angles of the bell and its support? It would also help to have the bell dimensions. I need to improvise a bell and see if the bell support is twisted on my 2 8 8 2. Thank you all.
My mallet does not have a bell, it is missing , the support looks twisted.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Or you could post a pic of yours and we could advise again....
John


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Sierra Sound System works

The 9 v rechargeable battery is a replacement of the original, the wires of the original battery have been cut, only the 9v is connected. The on off switch is defective, thats why it did not make a sound , you have to fiddle it for it to work, I must change it, recharge or replace the 9v and I'm done. The three wires that go to a white three pin mini female connector left inside the tender that I mentioned earlier do not connect to the sound board only to the wheels , so they must be an extra (third) power pick up but what for? Perhaps to recharge big batteries for running the train? Batteries on a stock car with plastic wheels that was once behind the tender ?


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