# Do you see interest in large scale growing or dying?



## Lillys (Apr 10, 2015)

This is related to the last thread I started regarding the effect of the internet on this hobby. Do you think interest in L scale is growing or dying? Please explain your opinion for this. Is it based on what you see in your local area, the internet in general, or the long term trend in the younger generation moving into it?


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

I think interest in this scale is same as it always has been but the reality of it is that the scale took a huge hot with the economy. Causing one manufacturer to stop and the existing ones to not try and do anything new. Regardless of money though a lot of people just don't have the space for this kind of scale, so while I see a lot of interest at shows they just don't do it because either of lack of space. While they also do say money I think many of them think that some of this is more expensive then it really is. Looking at the quality stuff from Lionel or even the HO it can cost just as much at our engines and cars.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Please explain your opinion for this.


Hi, welcome, and please explain your interest in this topic. Is this a marketing survey or just casual interest?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

From on my train show experience, based on the reactions of people and kids to my layout, the Door Hollow Shortline layout and the Del Oro guys, there is* definite* interest, but that doesnt necessarily translate into participation. The main reason is that for various reasons there are much fewer points of entry into large scale these days.

Local Hobby Shops (LHS) simply don't carry model trains anymore let alone large scale 

LHSs that do carry large scale tend to carry LGB, which pricewise went thru the roof in recent years, starter sets now average $350 and higher, which is holy grail territory for a newbie.

Bachmann starter sets are still a great place to begin but its getting harder to find any LHS willing to put up with the sizable area needed to store them. Gone are the days of Bachmann starter sets showing up in places like Costco and Orchard Supply Hardware before Xmas, which is how quite a few people got their start in large scale.

Bachmann had what I thought was the ideal starter set for kids with their Lil Big Hauler line, but IMHO due to a total failure to market them properly (Not selling them in places like Toys-R-Us or Big Box stores during Xmas) they have withered on the vine. At the last train show I am told that several LBH sets were in deed sold but most people had no idea they even existed until they saw them at the shows and on my layout. But the "serious" RTR side scoffed and didn't support them so now, when whats left is sold off, they are probably gone for good, and thats terrible because they are great well made units and a great base for kitbashing, which has also gone by the wayside in favor of a great many more RTR "open the box" types. Kitbashing is becoming a waning art these days.

This leaves the internet as the biggest source for LS information and access to the hobby. But if you go by the forums, you can get the impression that to start in LS you need a spare acre and a Trust Fund. This isn't true but when even the magazine Garden Railways "Small Layout Contest" winner was bigger than my garage (20' x 40") that's not a great way to sell people that this is an accessible hobby for most people with a yard, and that's sad really. 

I think the Brits the Japanese and the Germans do a far better job selling folks on the notion that you can do LS in a limited space, often 10'x10, for example. There not much of that concept in the mainstream here and that can severely limit attracting newbies. Its all "Go Big Or Go Home". So the ones that *do* jump in tend to be the ones with a spare acre and/or a Trust Fund. 

This is all just my own observations but its based on many conversations with fellow hobbiests at train shows and I think reflects some of the challenges the scale faces. Bit rambling but there it is, just a personal opinion ya know...


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing to add to Vic's litany of marketing obstructions & miscues -- and to my mind, the most discouraging to the prospective largescale shopper -- THE PRICE OF TRACK! 

The new user is almost always going to go for brass track, because that's sorta' the default. And at $6-7 dollars per foot, (or is it more nowadays?) a garden railroad can get pretty daunting, pretty fast.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Scott said:


> Joined in April, 2015,
> Total 4 posts from a nubee on a train forum and never uses the word "train"
> Just sayin...


Don't scare them off or we will have no one to sell that nasty cheap Bachmann track to. 

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary Woolard said:


> One more thing to add to Vic's litany of marketing obstructions & miscues -- and to my mind, the most discouraging to the prospective largescale shopper -- THE PRICE OF TRACK!
> 
> The new user is almost always going to go for brass track, because that's sorta' the default. And at $6-7 dollars per foot, (or is it more nowadays?) a garden railroad can get pretty daunting, pretty fast.


Oh yeah I should have mentioned that, that's a HUGE deterrent! You can offset it a little by buying used track but that's one of those things most newbies don't realize on initial investigation.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I agree with Vic about the hobby not marketing very well. Large scale has a few huge advantages, which I haven't seen advertised. As someone who should be exposed to hobby advertising (going to shows, stores, deliberately searching online), I still don't see the advantages presented.

It's practical to run on the floor in a home. (Well, other than the black dust, anyway.) This would seem to be a big advantage over smaller scales, which otherwise require a dedicated space and semi-permanent table or full room. You can also run track in otherwise useless space, like behind sofas and TV stands.

It's very durable. I've tripped over LGB trains, and haven't broken anything. I've never had to clean track (which was what got me out of HO.) It works with any age, from small children handling it roughly to old people who can still see it.

It's actually less expensive than HO, measured in feet of train, or square feet or cubic feet of railway. Yes, the unit price per piece of equipment is greater, but they're larger and it takes fewer pieces to make a nice railway. LS is a nice size to get out of astronomical hobby prices, because you get to start using construction products (compare HO ballast, sold in spice jars for $1.00 per ounce to G ballast, sold by the ton from your local quarry.)

The modeling opportunities are vast. From live steam kits and scratch-built models, scale lumber you make on standard woodworking tools, landscaping which only needs water and the sun, I think it's practical for a hobbyist to find something to challenge their skills without being too big a project to take on.

But, there's the bad news. (Though I'm not sure how many potential entrants are even aware of the bad news.)

Nobody sells a complete set up. Having to buy starter sets with DC throttles that have no growth and can't even operate other locomotives in the manufacturer's range. We desperately need digital starter sets with full features that don't involve components that are immediately obsolete.

This inane mishmash of incompatible, fake scales. 1:19 (on 45 mm), 1:29, 1:26, and 1:24 aren't real. This puts people in the situation of having to start over, or permanently forsake adding finer scale models as their interest expands. Add to that the fidelity sacrifices made to run tight turns, non prototypical car spacing and couplers, oversize track, lack of detail on most models, and I think it's hard to find attractive product for many potential buyers.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

It doesnt help that most American prototypes require large radius curves for the "Go big or go home" statement. Add to that the fact that most USA diesels are huge 6 axle monsters to pull long trains. Where as in Germany and the UK they hav(0-4-0/0-6-0) live steamers and a few slate wagons ect. The rest of the work goes into making the railway look real in the way its presented. Tag Gortons small railway is a great example Its a model of no exact railway, but its a railway in its own right. Any of the pictures I have seen online make it appear its a much larger railway, when its not. Thats the illusion and its been accomplished very well. The Brits do more with less. Investing the money in a good quality live steamer or battery engine. Track power is rare, most rails are 32mm in gauge to simulate the 2 foot and under gauge trains once very common over there. My own railway is all LGB track powered, R1 curves. 12' by 15' in size. There needs to be more of a push that you can do more with less and do not need huge diesels pulling huge trains to enjoy large scale. Garden Railways, being the first point of contact for many could be doing a much better job of promoting a less is better attitude and have a true small size railway contest. The last one, while the layouts were beautiful, was a farce in being smaller layouts. Just my 2 cents. Mike


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Don't scare them off or we will have no one to sell that nasty cheap Bachmann track to.
> 
> Andrew


Chris' message got removed already ??


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Pete Thornton said:


> Chris' message got removed already ??


Pete, It is a valid discussion topic no matter for what purpose it was posted.
His message was swooped on quick.

Andrew


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Garratt said:


> Pete, It is a valid discussion topic no matter for what purpose it was posted.
> His message was swooped on quick.
> 
> Andrew



I'm glad it was. Why can't this be a friendly forum? No need for the Why ya askin? attitudes.
This OP and her husband are helping a very sick friend build his railroad, she has experience managing large properties and has real world curiosities. That's all.
John


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Based on membership in OCGRS, things are status quo or even a bit improved. Membership is up this year by about 10%, including the replacement for attrition with new families getting into the hobby.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Lillys said:


> Do you think interest in L scale is growing or dying?


For what it is worth I would answer your question with a few questions...

How did you (or anyone else) get into this hobby?

I "discovered "G" scale at a hobby shop.

Does that same situation exist for someone else today?

I am unaware of any hobby shop within 150 miles that carries any significant amount of G scale products.

Where did/do you see and buy your LS stuff?

Local dealer - gone. Dealers I used to visit or see at train shows (I retired and no longer travel and my preferred dealers are long gone).

What were your preferred brands?

LGB
Aristo
USAT 

How are those brand's product availability today?

LGB - bankrupt
Aristo - closed
USAT - no longer produces the MoPac coaches I've been looking for for years

Perhaps the biggest problem for the hobby is that (like many others) my trains will very likely outlive me and there is no one in my family that has the slightest interest in model trains of any scale/gauge.

Someday my trains will probably end up on eBay or with some used toy train buyer paying 10 cents on the dollar and selling for 20 cents on the dollar and competing with any manufacturer trying to make a living competing with new products at retail prices.

Opinions are free. I just don't see how this or any hobby or business can grow without a focused marketing plan and an eager receptive market. As a salesman my job was to be a "Want Creator!"

Where are the "Want Creators and the Eager Receptive Customers" for LS trains?

Don't ask me. I'll be downstairs doing my very best to wear my trains out while I still can. 

In the end, playing with toy trains can be a lot of fun and if others see us having fun playing with our toy trains they too just might get hooked on the hobby.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Trains cam e about because I went all over Colorado with my father hunting the ghost trains. The history of why they got built came first. Large scale or for that matter most trains I ever owned was seeing Garden Railways and small layouts at garden shows.

Growing I don't see it as much. Model Railroads in general are to me a slowly dying hobby. One can only hope that all those Thomas the tank engine fans carry on.

Personally I think mass market is saturated, a lot of good used stuff out there. The sort of growth, but perhaps I see my own bias, is limited run models. I have paired down having become more interested in live steam models. So far Accucraft as a representative has done a pretty good job here. Limited runs but a plethora of models. 
Just take a look at what they have brought out, what is in development and perhaps what might be and the main page is primarily just the main site. Models planned with Train Shack UK and Argyle Australia add quite a bit more.

Now eventually they may reach saturation as well or we all become too old or poor to afford any of them. Again maybe we will all hope that Thomas kids find that spark. 

Lorna


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Totalwrecker said:


> I'm glad it was. Why can't this be a friendly forum? No need for the Why ya askin? attitudes.
> This OP and her husband are helping a very sick friend build his railroad, she has experience managing large properties and has real world curiosities. That's all.
> John


John,
In normal society, it is usually polite to introduce yourself and explain your reasons before asking questions that require effort to respond. Would you have done anything if a stranger came up to you on the street and asked these questions? You'd probably have said "Why ya askin?"

Just because this is the internet, lack of good social graces aren't excusable. Had the OP posted a brief intro [which you finally managed to do on her behalf, thank you,] I would have been more helpful. I'm really a friendly, helpful guy if you approach me the right way.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The Live Steam segment is going strong with more new engines avalible now then at ANY time in the past. Will this continue? Hard to say. In issue # 138 of Steam in the Garden the "Manufactures" have 7 full page ads. ( a quick count showed about 40 engines avalible or under consideration)


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Jerry is on to it...want creators. The question to be asked is not whether it is growing or dying but what does the hobby creators want it to be in the future.
I would speculate that the train hobby companies would want their offer of recreational time to be:
A family tradition
A book describing how fun and engaging it is
A internet connection to the activities children play
A must have in order to be fulfilled and/or meet basic needs
A memory of all the good times 
A video on the excitement of train travel
A customer base spreading the word and actively engaging others to join them in a "back to the future" activity.

But most of all the train hobby companies need to want a future that they can have influence potential customers as to how they spend their time and spare money. So, whatever the powers of the train hobby deem to be necessary it cannot be the want to have it the way it was in the good old days (things change and evolve).


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Right now its growing in 2 areas I see the most, the high end market such as live steam and fully outfitted stuff from the likes of the new LGB, and the second hand market for those of us that lack the depth of wallet for new items. When a new collection or estate shows up at the local shop that specializes in G, it gets pounced on like a pride of tigers that are starving. If you are not there in the first couple of days, the good stuff is gone. So there is a booming market, just not at the prices we see on some new items. Good used track also disappears quickly when it comes available. Those that can afford the new stuff, are buying, and the rest of us haunt the second hand market to fill our needs and wants. And Pete, we dont need the correct police around here, your right, there is a time and place and its not on a hobby forum. Now back to enjoying the spring weather in my garden railway! Mikie


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

It's definitely been receding since the recession hit, but I don't think the hobby will ever die out. Even if the major manufacturers all went belly up there would still be a few diehards scratchbuilding whatever they need.


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## Leon_Robinson1 (Apr 12, 2015)

Hey, I am 28 years old, so I guess I belong to the younger generation. I will try to tell my opinion from a young person's point of view.

Basically, I sadly think the interest does die out. Why ? Because the younger generation of today is addicted to computers and technology, rather than being busy with real objects. They rather play games on their computer or do other related stuff in their spare time. I have not met any single person in my local area who is interested in G scale, besides me. It is sad, but it is true. 

But there is a positive side of the story too. Together with the breaktrough of the internet and the process of globalization, I think that people can more easily get information about G scales. Some who have never heard of it can find more about it. The offer of G Scales is also wider compared to before, because you can buy and sell stuff on the internet. 

So there is a positive and negative side. But I think the negative one has more weight. The only solution to solve this is to talk about G Scales on the internet and also on a local level, and especially make people aware that it exists. Promoting G scales on an international level and trying to innovate are very important. If G Scales want to survive, they have to adapt to our modern time and technology and try to come up with new ways to reach a wide range of people.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Exactly. and when they do want to go outside, they can get a pretty nifty remote control helicopter for less than $100. It will last for so many crashes then history. The disposable society is conditioned to get a certain amount of fun then move on to the next new gizmo. Large Scale trains take far more commitment, monitory investment and time so they are not ideal for the general population which drives mainstream product development. Large Scale trains are more for dedicated train enthusiasts who will be into it even if they have to scratch build their empire. The general population may buy a cheap set to go around the Christmas tree or for junior but that's it. Like everything else the popularity fad will come and go. Disposable 'me' gimmickry based around technology is what the general population wants. Trains are a bit too 'old school' so until all the Thomas generation get older, slow down and have the retirement funds to spend things will be slow. The amount of people getting out of the hobby will provide good availability of second hand items for the diehards.

Andrew


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Ray Dunakin said:


> ...Even if the major manufacturers all went belly up there would still be a few diehards scratchbuilding whatever they need.


 amen to that!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Why worry about it? Nothing you can do. Enjoy the hobby and what you have. Based on videos of the ECLTS vendors have lots of stock, enough to last us. I have no need for more cars, tempted at times, but then realize I have some that have not run in a year or more. I have enough engines that even if they break down and I can't get parts to fix them I still have some more and you can make good money on ebay parting out one! Since you can buy less, when something comes up on ebay at a high price you can justify buying it, since you have not bought anything in 6 months.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I wonder how important home ownership rates are? Model railroading tends to call for space, and some stability of housing. That tends to fit better with an older demographic.

I think we'll see - sooner or later - better integration of consumer technology. It's practical to have features like phone or tablet control, cab-view via Wi Fi, etc. These things can fit in smaller scale trains too, and that should help get the cost down.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm like Jerry. I have more locos and frt cars than I have room to run. Yea, there is always stuff out there that I would like to have, but at what price? For me I have too many hobbies to dedicate all my money to one. For now, my G scale purchasing will be aimed at used 4 and 5 foot straight sections of track.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the future for this hobby like most toy train scales will be in apps that allow programming the layouts and trains to do specific functions. For some of us, this may not be of much interest, but for many of the younger crowd coming into the hobby, I believe they will be looking at what and how can they control the railroad.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Leon_Robinson1 said:


> Basically, I sadly think the interest does die out. Why ? Because the younger generation of today is addicted to computers and technology, rather than being busy with real objects. They rather play games on their computer or do other related stuff in their spare time. I have not met any single person in my local area who is interested in G scale, besides me. It is sad, but it is true.


Re. the OP's questions, I have to go with Leon. I'm 55, and I'm seeing most of my four kids going increasingly toward a computer-based existence. My wife and I encourage balance, and the kids aren't zombies by any means. But in comparison to, say, 20 or even 10 years ago, it's hard because "virtual" is where all the action, from their point of view, is.

Also, I think practicality comes into play. If a young person can't afford the product (as has been brought up), has no real estate or even a spare room to work with, and can't even count on the family being in the same home next year, G isn't quite practical. N or Z, maybe... 

For the space and money impaired though, history can be a great hook. It sure has been for me through the years, and I'm only recently able to build a layout. Also, the art of just model-making, without the layout, can a great hobby, as so many here demonstrate, for it's not only kids that are faced with requirements of hobby mobility. And I agree with Randy, connectivity between the virtual and the real will always add a big draw.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Leon_Robinson1 said:


> Hey, I am 28 years old, so I guess I belong to the younger generation. I will try to tell my opinion from a young person's point of view.
> 
> Basically, I sadly think the interest does die out. Why ? Because the younger generation of today is addicted to computers and technology, rather than being busy with real objects. They rather play games on their computer or do other related stuff in their spare time. I have not met any single person in my local area who is interested in G scale, besides me. It is sad, but it is true.


yes..but..that has been said about every generation since the 1960's! maybe earlier..

In the 1960's and 70's slot cars were going to kill model railroading..
when I was a teenager in the 80's video games were going to kill model railroading..
then in the 90's video games were going to kill model railroading..
then a decade ago video games were going to kill model railroading.
today, computers and technology are going to kill model railroading..

thats half a century now of the predicted demise of model railroading..meanwhile, model railroading is still here!  stronger than ever really..

so whenever anyone says "thing "x" is going to kill model railroading"..I dont give it much weight..model railroading always comes back with "rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated"..

Scot


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## Leon_Robinson1 (Apr 12, 2015)

As an add to my previous post, I also think that making G Scales cheaper can help out too. So basically, inform people that this hobby exists and try to promote it but also offer the products for a cheap price for example. This can change the toughts of some people who aren't bothered to buy G scales because of its price. And maybe those people will try it out after all because it's cheap anyway. Most parts I buy come from forsalenow and if I wouldn't be able to buy secondhand parts for a cheap price, then I think I wouldn't be doing this hobby as much as I do now.

But this only applies to a small part of people I think, anyway it describes my situation more or less.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah, that's about it Jerry. Enjoy what we have while we can. I have trains coming out of my ears so don't need too much more temptation. Difficult for a newby if they are starting with nothing and have to source popular items and prefer unused. At some stage though the market will respond and fill the huge holes in what is no longer available. A lot of AristoCraft's offerings will be missed. There may not be as much of a range. With modern 3D printing etc. we may be pleasantly surprised at how the approach to sourcing models for the hobby may evolve as it has never been before. Things may cost more from small batch cottage industry but the hobby has ever been that cheap anyway. I think we have experienced the boom time of a hobby, it's evolving scales, products and technologies, and the discounts from online dealers selling over produced stock. The market is a lot more tight and refined now. How many discounted items did we have to fix new from the box? 

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Scot, Leon never said the hobby would be killed entirely. There is an entirely different marketplace of product availability and price between a niche enthusiast group and the mainstream public. In the 60's nearly every boy had a train set but now that is not the case. If it was not for Thomas there would be hardly any, even so when they get a little older, Thomas is left in the cupboard and other things preferred, especially computers and online gaming. BIG TIME! . 

Andrew


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

With 3d printing getting better and cheaper, counting plastic at home systems, shapeways and more. It can be cheaper to create short run, and custom designs that are not made due to low demand. 

Larger items are typically easier to create, making 3d printing more ideal for HO and larger scales.

This may provide a good resurgence in the hobby.


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Garratt said:


> If it was not for Thomas there would be hardly any, even so when they get a little older, Thomas is left in the cupboard and other things preferred, especially computers and online gaming. BIG TIME! . Andrew


You are correct in that statement. Which is why I get annoyed with the old man mentality in this hobby which does not seek to improve the capabilities hobby that would interest younger people. Things like being able to install camera's and have tablet control are things I think would help keep younger folks more interested and engaged in the hobby. Sadly though most of the decoder makers have not been doing this because of the vocal group of older folks saying I'm not going to buy that I just want to watch them run in a circle. I feel like in this scale things are a bit backwards where manufacturers listen to the folks in the hobby that hold the status quo rather then being innovative like they are in some of the other scales in creating new controls and products.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

BigRedOne said:


> I wonder how important home ownership rates are? Model railroading tends to call for space, and some stability of housing. That tends to fit better with an older demographic.


I'd say that's a pretty key factor. And the fact that home ownership rates are decreasing for the first time in a long time, is probably at least some part of the reason large scale isn't as popular as it might be. Let's face it, large scale takes up a lot of space--both for storage and running.

For me, and I suspect others, there's no way that trains would be as much fun as they are if I had to set up 30' of track on the floor each time I wanted to run trains--and then pick it all up again when I'm done. When we moved to Kansas and could afford a house with a yard, it became practical (ha!) to have a layout.

I have an oval of track that I can put down in the basement/playroom on the floor, but we don't get it out more than once or twice a month, since it takes up a big space and then has to be picked up again. It's out more often in the winter, when snow prevents me from running outside, but it's not convenient to just "run trains"

And another part of the "fun" (for me) is having a scale town and industries for the train to "serve"--which would be another load of stuff to drag out of the closet for each running session.

One of my other "hobbies" is antique cars. Until we moved, I had a 1931 Model A Ford that I used as a commuter car  That hobby has similarities to this: mostly older, retired folks could afford the money and garage space that an "extra" car takes up. And there's frequent lamentation about how the "hobby" is dying out. But like Large Scale, there are younger folks coming along to join in. Not huge numbers, but enough to keep things going. And us "youngsters" are learning from the more experienced guys and will keep things alive.

I guess my advice to us in large scale is the same as it was to the old car guys: enjoy it and share it and don't worry too much about tomorrow. Didn't someone say "tomorrow will worry about itself" ?


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well, I don't get out a lot, among 'the masses' I guess, but when I do go to train shows, there are as many kids as adults. the love of trains, imho, is alive and well and culturally, deeply rooted.

trains have, for as long as I have had an interest, been a relatively expensive hobby, and more so it seems in the past 30 years, with the limited runs, and collector marketing mentality. Its been a long time since trains were merely "toys". They are Men's Toys now.

I think there will always be a section of folks who simply love miniatures, dioramas, trains sets, doll houses and the like.

I do think large scale is waning. Simply, its cumbersome, and, its expensive. I don't see a lot of new things in our scale. It is more of an artists / modelers realm I think.

that being said, there are other obstacles imho:
basic interest in something that goes round in circles....compared to ....anything;
skills to build, wire, assemble, paint, etc.;
room-gawd g scale, even R1, takes a lot of room compared to any other scale;
money, I think g scale is relatively expensive among the scales.

this last point is what affects/ hurts the hobby, imho. 

IMHO, compared to HO On30, O scale, the tech is so low that frankly, if I could wipe the slate clean and start again, likely I would, with locos that have sound, couplers, firebox lights, tower chatter, tender lights, classification lights, etc etc and all sorts of ready to run stuff, that I have to otherwise work to include in my plain old G scale locos. I am floored at run of the mill HO Athern diesels with all the bells and whistles and smoke units and oscillating lights and etc, Kato Genesis, etc. and some of the Lionel stuff is amazing..... 

There is, it seems, little for g scale in the way of figures, buildings, accessories. Bachman and Piko seem to be the present vendors, and much of the smaller boutique items are long gone, with few others. 

I do see a trend to address some of my thoughts (in the lack of modeler's skills), such as the offering of ready built stuff, ie the beautiful, painted, and detailed n scale buildings at $50-80 each, for those who cant build paint, detail etc, or don't have the time or patience-otoh, this makes a small town very pricey for a person of average income, no less a younger person.

I am alone in my interest in G scale, among my friends and acquaintances. And not meaning to be rude, but I have little desire to club up with guys that could be my grandfather-and I'm over 50! 

Not the age thing per se, but the geezer or rigid mentalities I often encounter. 

I mention this not as a bash , but rather another factor that affects the hobby. When I go to my local hobby shop, on any given day, its 99% white male, and 90% over 50. Nothing wrong with any of this, but, it does give reason to ask why? I think the simple answer is interest and disposable income.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting topic. It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone seriously believes there is any future in the g-scale hobby except as a very-limited specialty market.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If the 1% liked G $cale we'd have a better time. 
Ron, great to hear from you way up there! You made a big impression, I too often notice the void.
John


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

stevedenver said:


> well, I don't get out a lot, among 'the masses' I guess, but when I do go to train shows, there are as many kids as adults. the love of trains, imho, is alive and well and culturally, deeply rooted.


I think they are too but people generally have less time or resources to get involved themselves. As I have said before the hobby takes quite a lot of commitment, money, time and space. 
You have to have a passion for trains, perhaps sentimentality for earlier times and appreciation of history. Most these days are into pure convenience and ego nurturing. They just can't get enough mind numbing trash. 

There is not even a train park where I can regularly see G scale trains run here in my part of Australia, a very densely populated part, except in a distant members club who also have a basic Large Scale layout which I still have not made the pilgrimage, although I have met a few members now who all seem to be good fellows.
The few annual mixed scale shows do pack out though with all ages and plenty of kids who all seem very thrilled. 

Andrew


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

All;

I work at a LHS two days per week. I have noticed something interesting. On several occasions, a parent or grandparent has come in and purchased items: train equipment, a plastic model kit, or a slot car set. When paying these persons have said to me, "I'm buying this for my child/grandchild because I am hoping to get them interested in doing something creative rather than playing with those mindless video games."

Certainly not a trend, but it does indicate a concern on the part of some adults that children need to be encouraged to develop skills and imaginative creativity via a hobby. Maybe just a spark, but at least some concern is being acted upon.

Best,
David Meashey


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

My wife and I are those "mean parents" that limit the amount of video game time the kids get. With the nice spring weather here and summer days coming we "kick" them outside and make them play.

One thing I try to do is kit my kids involved in the hobby as much as possible. Try to let them get there hands dirty, do some weathering with the airbrush, and so on. I've moved their Lego supplies into my work room to help encourage bonding time. Yeah, when doing detail work my type A kicks in and I handle that. Otherwise I try to encourage/spark their creativity. 

Oldest and I are taking a road trip this summer. Thinking of going to Rochelle, IL to watch trains, hit a hobby show, and stop by Reindeer Pass. 

Trying to do my part to help the future of the hobby out


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

All I got was an 8 by 4 particle board after months of waiting. I had to put it on top of my old cot myself. 
Dad worked in a hardware store so I did get a good supply of building stuff with free delivery.
Bonding... Is that a type of glue? 

Andrew


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

we can blame computers and video games forever. But where is Dad??? We see thousands of kids every year at the Grarden Factory show. Kids are exicted as ****. But. when they leave, that is the end of their excitment. Unless Dad buys them a train set and particpates with them, they will never be a participant in the hobby. It is easier for Dad to purchase the video game and let the kid play it by himself rather than committing the time As a kid, my Dad, brother and myself spent hundreds of hours with our Lionel set. That bonding will never go away. Its 90% Dad commitment to the hobby and bonding with his kid that gets the kid into the hobby!!!!


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## marsfromrexford (Feb 22, 2015)

It's a common topic I been noticing in the few months I started here, and a very understandable concern especially if entering large scale as a hobby. Cost - big problem, just sent out an order for 2 switches and a box of flex, 517.00 dollars. Granted I could have bought a beginners set but a layout with some sort of operational interest is a must for me. I'll have 2000.00 dollars in start up and that is only with 1 box car, one locomotive, four switches and maybe a 100 feet of track, Crest Revolution, Battery and charger. I could have built a nice deck for that kind of money but....

Bonding with my kids via the hobby is what I'm thinking, especially my 6 year old that has autism. When I was a kid I remember trains leaving a huge impression with me, understanding mechanically how things work. Hopefully it's worth it, I think it will be.

Mario


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Cost is HUGE for most of us. I continue to operate about 1200 feet of track, mostly outdoors, mid-April thru mid-October when winter usually shuts the line down. I allow for about 1,000 in repairs and upgrades on the locomotives per year, but routinely end up paying far more. This year is no exception. I have two dozen remote battery control locomotives in the system and a fleet of streamliner and heavy weight coaches of various road names plus a railroad yard full of freight & maintenance cars. Have not expanded on the track in the last five years and no new structures. However, I have added new locomotives to complete a long-term plan. One of them, a White Pass yellow-green ALCO, went into service this year. But it was quite costly by the time the conversion was completed. 

As I have already stated, not only are there no hobby stores in our largest Alaskan town that have ANY g-scale products, but as of last year, the last hobby store went out of business. I continue to buy some parts on line, but the choices are far more limited than they were a few years ago. 

The economy NEVER recovered from that last downturn about 6 years ago with only limited exceptions. Alaska is NOT among those. Fortunately, summer tourism and fishing remain relatively strong here in interior Alaska. It is that business which keeps my large-scale set up alive. 

I do not see sufficient interest from younger people ANYWHERE to ensure any future for this hobby except as a limited-market high-dollar venture. 

How many people on this MLS board are NEW entrants into this hobby? Do we have ANY out there ? If any, the number would undoubtedly be almost insignificant. How about the MLS Facebook ? Does it still exist ? Does anyone use it ? I can't even FIND it anymore. That is NOT a good sign. 

There IS a Large Scale Central FB page: "https://www.facebook.com/pages/Large-Scale-Central/129279007141044?fref=ts"

Look at the images of the participants. Do you see any "millennials" out there ? I sure don't. Mostly "old" people, older than myself in many cases. And I am 65. 

Thus my conclusion: NO future in this large-scale hobby EXCEPT as a high-end extremely-limited market.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

While most don't want to admit it, I think you're right on Ron. Until trains, G in this respect, won't appeal to the kids until it can be fully operated by an app. I asked about Kadee's radio controlled couplers and felt $360.00 was a bit expensive. Unless you're rich, it's hard to consider a yard full of locomotives equipped with R/C, Batteries, Sound and electronic couplers.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Totalwrecker. Appreciate the greeting. Thanks, Randy for the reply. 

AGAIN, the question: "How many people on this MLS board are NEW entrants into this hobby? Do we have ANY out there ?" 

ANY NEW young people, say mid 40s or younger, and preferably mid 30s or younger ? 

Relative to the rest of us, just how many people on this forum are young people AND new entrants into this hobby ? THAT answer would give us a much better sense of where this hobby is going.

I suspect I already know the answer. 

So do most all of you.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a G scale Facebook page and a G scale for sale Facebook page.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

blackburn49 said:


> ANY NEW young people, say mid 40s or younger, and preferably mid 30s or younger ?


36.

All though not new to model railroading (HO and N for 25+ years), I'm new to G scale.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

45. I've been doing G scale for only a year or so. I did HO as a kid with my dad, got into Z scale after a stint with the Army (I discovered Z in a hobby shop in West Berlin in the 80s) and now am doing G with my kids (9, 6, and 3)


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I too was 45 when I started into G-scale. Not counting the Lionel I had as a kid, G-scale was my first serious venture into a train hobby. So far we have a 45 year old and a 36 year old who are NEW to the hobby. I am sure we all wish you the best in this most wonderful of hobbies. But where are the rest of you youngsters who are NEW to the LS hobby ?


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## marsfromrexford (Feb 22, 2015)

Same for me, been in HO scale since I was 10, 31 years later I decided to take trains to the great outdoors. My little ones are 6 and 10, both girls.

Mario


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I definatly feel the pain of not having my father involved in the hobby with my as a child. It was myself that wanted the trains as a child. Dad never really participated other than buying them as gifts. Trains are my main special interest and have been since I was a very young boy. My aunt and uncle spurred the move to G with a LGB starter set bought home from one of thier trips to Germany. I also do see the excitement of all the kids when I attend the Great Train Expo in Indianapolis each year. But with very tight family budgets, its hard to get parents to drop even the 300-400 for a LGB starter set or Lionel set. But with those I was able to talk with and explain cost effective ways to find sets or put togther a set cheaper, were able to purchase sets for thier child. So many were just seeing the costs at the show or at online shops that only stocked brand new and they assumed all larger scale trains were just as or more expensive. We know this to be false. TV ads, atleast around the holidays from the larger mfg's would be one set to "plant" the seed of a train in a childs mind. Espicaly during Saturday morn cartoons. LGB, Lionel, Bachmann ect should be leading this charge to build thier future purchasers of thier product. While we love to have huge outdoor layouts, my set ups as a child were small when it came to actual product from Lionel first then LGB. Just a basic steam engine starter set and a 4x8ish loop of track. All the rest of the "stuff" came from my toy chest and my own imagination and making stuff from boxes and other craft supplies. Thats what engages the childs mind. My sister's children have thier time on computer devices limited, and they love it when uncle Mike brings the trains with me and set them up. It doesnt take long for couch pillows to become tunnels and dolls to be hitching rides in the gondolas. Do they need $2000 dollers of equipment to have fun, heck no! They are enjoying either my $100 Lionel gold rush set or the $300 LGB set up that I have build up from used stock, just depends what I take on that trip. The future is out there, just one look at the excited kids at the Train Expo is evidence enough. But parents need to engage thier child's imagination and buy them a quality train set. Not just take them to the show and enjoy others trains. Its up to the rest of use to convince mom and dad to do this and help them find ways to afford it if a new set just isnt in the family budget. Mike


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

My introduction to trains was our neighbor who was retired, taking me with, at age 4 to 6 to chase trains. Not just any trains these were the "Reading Rambles" pulled by the big northern T-1's. I was terrified the first time! For the next 10 years it was American flyer trains. Then came the drivers license and cars & girls. A decade or so later while looking for my son's first train I found a LGB set in a department store (Boscov's). He progressed to "O" gauge then onto cars and girls. His mother moved on to another husband, (which turned out to be a good thing) He gave the LGB back to me ( we had a 9 x 20 indoor layout before he moved onto O) Next the LGB RR went outside,(smaller house, new wife) and while at the 96 GR convention I purchased my first live steam engine. 
Is this hobby expensive? yes, but so are cars, boats, cameras, guns, computers & video games etc.
Is the hobby growing ? some segments yes in 1:32 & 1:20.3 live steam, 1:29 looks to be dying, it never really got any traction in the live steam world. Also the " Roundhouse" size/ scale are always popular world wide.
Mabey the the question is "is your segment the large scale growing or dying?


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well Mike I too had a similar early train experience, sans parental involvement, but, I had trains, thanks to them!

And, I guess, this made me independent, creative, and persevere what I loved, all alone, in terms of building my layouts.

I just never had any train set that looked like the box top cover, semaphores, mountains, truss bridges, etc.....and my ability to model was ... limited.

Remember the grass mat paper, Plasticville, etc. 

But, I persevered. 

And, as an adult, I learned that while not dispositive, a lot of modeling is facilitated by money, tools, the right materials, etc, rather than 'making do' from the toy chest (not a dis, but my own experience). I could buy the right stuff, not just 'close'. And of course, too, there is exposure to technique, which wasn't as easy when we were kids. Now one can watch youtube, and learn wonderful tips and techniques, rather than strictly by trial and error. 

I recall all too well as a kid, having to mix a color, because I didn't have it ready mixed and couldn't afford to buy it, if I could find it. My point again, is not only money, but convenience. As kid, it all has to go via a parent, as banker and advisor. As an adult, I go to get whatever supplys I think I might need, and I have no hurdles to executing my plans.


My point is, that many parents simply wont/cant afford this, time or monetarily. Especially for a child. There is , right or wrong, an attitude of, "they're just a kid, and these are just toys, they get bored, broken" etc.

Me, LOL, I was 'scarred for life' by never being able to achieve a really wonderful 'train set'! We lived in apartments, had not much room, the old 4x8 board which had to be able to survive being lifted sideways to store, etc. 

Slowly working off this 'baggage', with a basement full of LGB stuff, and large and wonderful (IMHO) n scale layout, and a garden as well........but NOW ive got semaphores and bridges and mountains and lots of cool toys...same little kid inside at some level I guess.

However, with respect, while parents are critical in many ways, so are children. I fostered my own sons trains, showed him how to build stuff, paint, and he had his own Kato n scale layout. In retrospect, I think he enjoyed it, but also did it to be with me, not with the trains.....point is you can lead to water but you cant make the horse drink.....otoh, hes very capable of building painting and otherwise doing 'modeling related skills".

And, most parents don't know any more than the kids when it comes to the actual skills or understanding of railroads and modeling.

Simply, its a fairly pricey hobby, in any scale. And, it takes a good deal of 'tuition' dollars. I realize now, it doesn't take as much as many of us have, but, rather narrow focus, and far less rolling stock.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

After just reading this whole thread, I'm not sure if Largescale is growing or dying. I do know I'm doing my best to help further it's cause. I convinced my sparky bretheren to do setups outside of the standard train show venues. They now do two setups in the spring at local garden centers. (Simple loops wandering around the potted plants work great!) My idea is there are people out there being dragged to the garden centers who may have memories of trains (model or otherwise) and have no idea graden railroads even exist. I even did a Relay for Life event and had trains running all night (even ran a live steam Frank S and a Shay!) Every day Joes (and Jills) out side of model train folks don't know this even exists. People look at me dazed and confused when I tell them a have a railroad layout in my backyard. 

At the local Greenburg show we setup an elevated loop to run live steam, It's funny to see people's faces when it finally dawns on them that we are actually boiling water and propelling the locos with steam.

I also setup the portable loop at a local (and amazing) WWII airplane museum, (The focus is flying the airplanes!) in November. (Planes, Trains and Santa)

I have tried to do my part by including my two boys in live steam. (Kids love playing with fire!) A couple weeks back I took them to Cabin Fever and they are now able to run their Wilma and Konrad with out intervention from Dad. (I just hope my teachings on live steam track etiquette are still in there minds and in use.) Their ages are 14 and 18 and I'm hoping that some of this will have rubbed off. (My youngest was running an eggliner in the backyard in his diapers.)

I think we have to take on a little responsibility for getting the word out and growing the hobby, *IF* we really want to see it grow.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As a sort of follow up I just returned from the only hobby shop in Arkansas that I am aware of with any sort of large scale inventory.

They are closing out what is left of their small inventory below cost just to get rid of it.

The owners comments were that the only time he ever sells large scale is when it is below his cost.

About all that is left are a few 1:20.3 Bachman freight cars.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Was he at MSRP or lower?
John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Totalwrecker said:


> Was he at MSRP or lower?
> John


By now everything is probably gone. (80% off of MSRP). 1:20.3 is simply too large for my layout so the only thing I could have done would have been to buy them and put them on eBay. 

I would prefer that someone bought them that had some use for them.

I just hope I can find a use for the Kadee Couplers and RC Uncoupler set I bought.

Jerry


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

We just have to remember that not all kids will retain the "spark" of the hobby thier whole life. Most will move away from it in their teens an twenties as cars, girls and starting a life and career are top priorities. But I bet many come back to the hobby in a few years as the kid(s) grow up and the funds to buy trains come available again. I never totaly gave my trains up since they are my main special interest, but they did get put on the back burner as I did catch the car fever in my late teens, girls not so much but thats an Aspie thing, but cars and pickup trucks took over my mind for many years. The shake up in China, huge price increases in production, and general contraction in the hobby from many sources will curtail production for awhile. That said, there is plenty of second hand equipment out there, we just have to give up our "gotta have it now" mentality and enjoy the hunt for that elusive piece we desire for our collection. I find myself buying catalogs from the big manufactures when I find them at shows, then I can look thru them and see what was made and then hunt for on ebay, at shows or post wanted to buy ads online. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It occurred to me that perhaps this hobby might be a bit like trying to start a campfire.

When Lionel and American Flyer were started everyone was riding trains and taking their kids on the trains (or subways or other tracked transport) with them so selling Lionel and American Flyer might have been as easy as starting a fire on a hot summer day with dry wood. 

My father died when I was 3 (I have no memories of him) but he left behind a couple of hand made locomotives (around G Scale I would guess). He also left a couple of large Coca Cola cardboard boxes (he had worked for Coca Cola) full of Lionel & American Flyer track along with a Lionel freight train & American Flyer passenger train.

That may have been the kindling for my personal campfire because the trains were the only things I had to connect with him. 7 years later when we had a house I was 10 and allowed to run those trains around the Christmas tree every year.

Later I joined the USAF, went to England, eventually married an English girl with no interest in trains and the campfire went out (but dating her in London involved riding on many British steam trains to see her). Our kids never had (or wanted) a train around the Christmas tree so the kindling was wet. The Lionel & American Flyer were traded for HO that is long gone.

Eventually we bought our 1st house and I bought some MTH track and trains but the kids had no interest in them. When I saw the 1st G Gauge train (used Aristo Southern Crescent) it and the track went home with me. 

Even though I gave model trains to my kids and grand kids their tinder was wet and even the availability of free trains was of no interest to them. 

The hobby shop I mentioned also had an inexpensive G Gauge (probably battery powered) all plastic train set I could have bought for less than $20 but I left it because I could not think of anyone to give it to that would have had the slightest interest in it.

Perhaps a friend said it best. He said he was born without the "Train Gene."

Either you have it (for whatever reason) or you don't. 

Perhaps the simple reason may be that railroads are simply not part of our daily lives other than having to impatiently wait for a long train to get past the crossing that is slowing us down.

Does it really matter? Probably not. There are so many trains being left behind by an aging population that those who really want them will always be able to find them at lower and lower prices.

On reflection I have never purchased a Lionel or American Flyer train and my O Gauge MTH trains sit for months unused so has anything really changed?

Jerry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, my kids played with my old Lionel O gauge, but now have no interest in trains, so guess that did not hook them. Nor do my grandkids have any interest. So guess Trainz will get them when I die and someone else can have them.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

I've just started my garden trains, so the interest must be growing


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been watching and reading this thread for about six weeks now. There are indeed many different opinions regarding the success or demise of this facet of the model railroading hobby. I have been involved in model railroading for about as long as I can remember and I'll be 72 this year. My grandfather put the first spark to me with his huge Lionel collection....pre-war and post-war. I'm very lucky to still have that collection. My Dad bought my first American Flyer set Christmas 1945. Built my first live steam 1 inch scale locomotive in 1956...I was 13 years old. Did all the machining at my dad's machine shop under his watchful eye. I grew up with friends like Paul Burch (here on MLS) who was also interested in trains and model railroading. The point of this is that I had two people who stopped to help me to grow my fascination with all things trains. And friends in the hobby influenced me. What parent today actually sits down with their kids to do creative things? The kids are either texting each other or playing **** video games. Just look at the commercials that run every day on TV and see all the crap to download to your smart phones to play games. 

I also think that the funds a family with children sets aside for large scale can't be a lot AND this hobby IS expensive. The economy really killed the disposable income part of most family’s budgets. That's a fact. I was not wealthy or poor during our child rearing years.....just comfortable. But I was able to start into ride-on 1-1/2 inch scale because I was able to do my own machining and build locomotives (both steam and electric) and the rolling stock that goes with them. Thanks for this goes to my grandpa and my dad. My kids grew-up at Los Angeles Live Steamers and spent many happy hours and days there. They met many older folks there who taught them about railroading when the railroads were in their heyday. Great influence again on my kids. My children are now grown and in their thirties.....some with grandchildren and I'm passing my interest on to them. My three year old granddaughter ran her first train at LALS this past weekend and she is now "hooked". She was engineering a double-headed, MU'ed pair of Baldwin electrics (700 pounds of locos and a two car train, probably another few hundred pounds. Give the kids a way and let them be INVOLVED, this hobby won't die!

Without the funds to properly enjoy the large scale hobby and/or the parents to provide the creative spark, I feel this hobby will eventually die out and those of us in the senior section will be gone. No one to pass along what railroading was all about in the golden years from 1850-1950. Too far into the past for most kids today. 

We also have fewer and fewer vendors than we did only ten years ago. If you don't have the capability to make your own stuff or the funds to buy the trains ready-to-run, why would you want to get into this hobby'

This past weekend, Los Angeles Live Steamers had its annual Spring/Memorial Day meet. Huge crowds AND buyers of trains WERE buying! Members and general public. Accucraft was there with all their goodies. They were selling product. The economy never hurts the high end crowd. There were many brand new steam and diesels running on the layout all weekend. Right now, you can purchase a brand new 1/8th scale diesel (SD 45 for example) that is electric, runs on two RV batteries, full MU capability, all lights and full 200 amp Phoenix sound system for around $12K to $14K ready to run. When you start to buy track for 1/29th, it can be daunting for even a couple of hundred feet. Then there are turnouts!

I just think that large scale in the garden will just become a very small niche in another small niche that is model railroading. Maybe won't die altogether, but won't reach the heights that it once held ten years ago. Look at how Marty Cozad has scaled back his large railroad to something a little more manageable and has now gone big time into the 1 inch riding scale. The relative cost of riding scales in 1 inch or 1-1/2 inch are NOT that much more than the high end 1/29.

You takes your pick.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

MyMiniatureWorlds said:


> I've just started my garden trains, so the interest must be growing


*
Posts: MyMiniatureWorlds
Junior Member

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Poland
Posts: 10*

WELCOME ABOARD!!!

It's folks like you who really are the future of this great hobby. 

Jerry


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The demise of 1:29 may be good for the hobby. This way someone new in the hobby will have 2 choices. 
Narrow gauge 1:20.3 or standard gauge 1:32 . I am fortunate that I went from LGB electric & live steam to 1:32 standard gauge live steam. It is a hard sell getting someone spend 3K to upward of 15K on an engine that not to scale, be it standard gauge or narrow gauge. Weather you run electric or live steam we all want a matching scale train to pull behind our engines. 1:29 divided standard gauge into 2 camps, the older 1:32 and the larger 1:29 . Back in the 90's the cheapest rolling stock out there was MDC. (1:32 ) Today we have MTH, Accucraft and lots of limited run/ custom order and brass in 1:32, these later two are I would call "high end".


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, the whole 1:32/1:29 thing kind of killed things for me. Sort of like the O-27/1:48 scale thing. 

So, I went with 1:20.3.

Let's be honest, the entire hobby is suffering from short-sightedness and the economic "recovery" that isn't. And the price of oil, and the Chinese suddenly becoming far more proud of their stuff. 

Maybe if more manufacturers go the way of Atlas and bring it back to the US... 

Short-sightedness? My ten year old son loves trains. Most of what I buy him is Bachmann - and old Athearn/MDC Blue Box kits. He much prefers the latter, but they're getting harder and harder to find. There is no "low end" to start with anymore. It's all "superdetailed RTR" to quote the marketing hype. My boy just wants to run trains...

Robert


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