# Not-a-wye ideas



## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't have room on my layout for a large-radius wye, but I like the idea of being able to "turn" trains around without resorting to picking them up. I've had several ideas about how to accomplish this ranging from modifying an LGB three-way switch (so it never goes straight) to my current brainstorm 








Has anyone done something similar to this?

I'm aware of the inherent complications related to the s-curve at the top, but since I'd mainly be turning just the locomotive, I thought it wouldn't be too big of an issue. I'm also aware that the r5 switch at the top will have to be switched left to send the train to the right and switched straight to go left. Hopefully I can wrap my head around that when running trains 

I guess I should note that my locomotives are all short-wheelbase or articulated. My biggest is an LGB mallet. 

Anyone have other ideas? Comments?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Im confused..
based on the drawing , as posted, that wont turn a locomotive.
some of those tracks must be connected to a larger railroad im guessing?
if so, we need to know which tracks, and how they connect to the larger railroad..

Scot


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Scottychaos said:


> Im confused..
> based on the drawing , as posted, that wont turn a locomotive.
> some of those tracks must be connected to a larger railroad im guessing?
> if so, we need to know which tracks, and how they connect to the larger railroad..
> ...


Sorry Scott--when I made the picture I was mainly thinking about the 30 degree crossover and neglected to draw the "leg" that connected the two turnouts off the main line. I was fixing that when you posted. 

The turnouts would all be Piko R5s and the curves are r5s too. That's nominally an eight-foot diameter curve.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm confused about the 30 degree crossing. Is it really needed?

Would something like this work using standard switches?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Well thats wye he's asking...


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

ewarhol said:


> I'm confused about the 30 degree crossing. Is it really needed?
> 
> Would something like this work using standard switches?
> 
> View attachment 22066


See... this is why I ask questions here. 

I'm not sure why (wye?) that didn't cross my mind. I think at some point I was thinking that my 30-degree crossing idea would save space (for some reason--possibly based on a lack of coffee this morning) It looks like it would work the way you drew it and it wouldn't really take up any more space.


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Well thats wye he's asking...


LOL... let me guess Jeff... no pun intended


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

ah! ok, that makes more sense! 
thanks..

but now I dont understand the point of the crossover..
how it is any different that a "regular" wye without the crossover?
just replace the crossover with a switch, (use a right-hand switch instead of a left) and extend the leg up beyond the switch,
and you have a traditional wye..why do you want the crossover?

nothing is changed except replacing the crossover with a switch:









The crossover works fine, if you want it! 
its not *bad* to have it..I just dont understand the reason for it..

Scot


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

riderdan said:


> See... this is why I ask questions here.
> 
> I'm not sure why (wye?) that didn't cross my mind. I think at some point I was thinking that my 30-degree crossing idea would save space (for some reason--possibly based on a lack of coffee this morning) It looks like it would work the way you drew it and it wouldn't really take up any more space.


Track all ready laid down in the area? 

If not, then just set track/switches down to test it out. Don't need to connect them just looking for a rough idea of how it will fit.

If track is all ready laid down then make paper or cardboard track/switch cutouts. Lay those down to see how things fit. 

See what works best for you.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

By using the crossover (and making the use of the entry switch 'backwards') you save space between the two switches at the end of the wye (where the engine would be traveling in reverse, as usual). Some savings in the length of the base of the wye, at the expense of the crossover and the double tracking below the entry switch. Not a bad idea at all if you are limited in the space for the two curves of the wye.

You might try a multi-point 'wye'... see this location in Sardinia using Google Earth (or some other aerial mapping system): 

39°10'2.30"N 8°30'40.47"E

It works fine if you don't have much room, but it does take an awful lot of switches!!!


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys.

Scott, I agree that there's no real benefit to the cross-over/switch combo. I guess it looks kind of neat (like an extra siding or something) but it really doesn't save space and has no real operational purpose. It's also one 30 degree crossover more expensive than going with three switches and adds a s-curve to the layout.

Eric, the track isn't down yet. I'm finalizing the track plan for my inner loop and was trying to figure out how to get a wye into the mix. So your advice about putting down the track pieces to see how it fits is helpful.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Semper Vaporo said:


> You might try a multi-point 'wye'... see this location in Sardinia using Google Earth (or some other aerial mapping system):
> 
> 39°10'2.30"N 8°30'40.47"E
> 
> It works fine if you don't have much room, but it does take an awful lot of switches!!!


Wow--a place for a locomotive to make a three-point turn  That would be a neat thing to model, though as you said it would take more switches.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

A wye is a 'three point' turn, this is a FIVE point turn... something I have to do in my back yard with my car so I can thread the needle down my NARROW driveway going forward (I don't dare back down my driveway with my window wells on one side and the neighbor's gas meter on the other!).


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Semper Vaporo said:


> A wye is a 'three point' turn, this is a FIVE point turn... something I have to do in my back yard with my car so I can thread the needle down my NARROW driveway going forward (I don't dare back down my driveway with my window wells on one side and the neighbor's gas meter on the other!).


I'm thinking if there was a circle of track around it, you could summon up derailment demons in the moonlight


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> By using the crossover (and making the use of the entry switch 'backwards') you save space between the two switches at the end of the wye (where the engine would be traveling in reverse, as usual). Some savings in the length of the base of the wye, at the expense of the crossover and the double tracking below the entry switch. Not a bad idea at all if you are limited in the space for the two curves of the wye.
> 
> You might try a multi-point 'wye'... see this location in Sardinia using Google Earth (or some other aerial mapping system):
> 
> ...


I love that one!  would make a very interesting model..instead of three "legs" for the wye, it uses five..the reason is to make gentler curves than a 3-leg wye would have in the same space..but instead of only three turnouts, it requires five turnouts and four diamonds! much added complexity, but solves the problem for a limited space:










Scot


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I guess the only issue would be that the cross-overs would have to be hand-laid. But it is a really neat idea.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Fascinating switch arrangement Semper. With real estate that limited though, I wonder why they didn't just use a turntable? True, more engineering & maintenance; but it would replace the cost of 5 switches, and the associated real estate.

Anyway, I believe TW John has posted at least one pic of a TT whose only purpose was to reverse the loco, that is, only one connecting track. But, there's still a need for 2 switches for the runaround track.

Just musing...
Cliff


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This might be an option for you:

There is a Wye inside an oval that is inside and outer oval.

I designed this years ago so I can enter the Wye either clockwise or counter clockwise. By backing out the opposite way the train is reversed.

A side benefit is that there is a parking track on the right in addition to the Wye track which could also be used to park a train when not being used as a Wye. You can end up with 2 parking tracks as well as a Wye - and nothing taking up space outside the double oval.

The Wye can be as long or short as the oval it resides within and actually longer because it extends into the loop. If you have an oval you probably have room for a Wye in the middle of it running parallel with the straight tracks of your oval.

If you enjoy reversing a lot of trains, my method can be more time-consuming. Also, if the straight sections are being used to park two trains, the train in the Wye must be removed before the other train can be driven out.

For a double loop I use 4 pairs (8) of standard R3 switches rather than your three but with a single loop two pairs (4) would work.


This is a simplified version:










My basic design:











Hope this helps,

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I like the first configuration simply because it is different. I see nothing wrong with it.

Could you spread the tracks some more and put a industry in between ?

I vote stick with the first one.

JJ


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

John J said:


> I like the first configuration simply because it is different. I see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Could you spread the tracks some more and put a industry in between ?
> 
> ...


Hi JJ,

I'm not positive you were referring to me but if so, yes you could spread the tracks (reduce or eliminate the curve back of the outer loops but at the expense of shortening the length of the Wye reversing track). This design has no track between the turnouts (solid turnout curve to turnout curve).

Adding track for a wider curve would require adding straight track between the turnouts. Instead I put a town inside the loop at each end plus train stations, water towers, coaling towers, grain loading tower etc. where the dog bone curves out plus on the outside of the loops.

For more space for buildings etc. this could be done if the space is available:











Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*just when you think there's no room*

This post led me to search ...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

riderdan said:


> I don't have room on my layout for a large-radius wye, but I like the idea of being able to "turn" trains around without resorting to picking them up. I've had several ideas about how to accomplish this ranging from modifying an LGB three-way switch (so it never goes straight) to my current brainstorm
> 
> 
> Anyone have other ideas? Comments?


Assuming that you want to stay with LGB sectional pieces, the smallest wye using their "8' diameter" turnouts and curves is as I did it on the T&LB.

While a crossover may move the two turnouts a bit closer together, it is at the expense of making the whole shebang a bit larger.

There are 66" between the two mainline turnouts.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> Hi JJ,
> 
> For more space for buildings etc. this could be done if the space is available:
> 
> ...




Double reverse loops contained within a loop. Fun to wire.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The Rio Grande had a short branch line that went from Montrose to Ouray. At the end of the line in a box canyon, at Ouray, there wasn't room for a wye to turn the engine. They had a manual (crew pushed) turntable to turn the engine around for the return trip to Montrose. The picture of it in my book, NARROW GAUGE IN THE ROCKIES, shows a small Connie filling up the table. It is probably a C-19.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

toddalin said:


> Double reverse loops contained within a loop. Fun to wire.


As I tell everyone, its just two wires here, then two wires there and then two wires...

Jerry


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> As I tell everyone, its just two wires here, then two wires there and then two wires...
> 
> and pretty soon you have:
> 
> ...




Actually, T-bar came up with this same configuration (a figure 8 contained inside a loop with access to either through the turnouts) a while ago and asked how to wire it. I had no problem figuring out how to make it work with 8 insulators either manually flipping one dpdt (as he wanted to do it), or automated using the LGB 1203 dpdts mounted to the turnouts.

No one else had a clue as to how to do it. They saw the double reverse loops and said forget it.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

toddalin said:


> Actually, T-bar came up with this same configuration (a figure 8 inside a loop) a while ago and asked how to wire it. I had no problem figuring out how to make it work with 8 insulators either manually flipping one dpdt, or automated using the LGB 1203 dpdts mounted to the turnouts. (No one else had a clue as to how to do it. They saw the double reverse loops and said forget it.)


It has been several years since I built that layout (in 2010) so I would have to think about it - which is why I make directions for myself (as illustrated). 

I prefer the simplicity of a SPST switch to control power to a siding and a DPDT to reverse polarity in the reverse loops and a pair of mini push button NO SPST switches to activate the LGB switch machines.

I tend to try to avoid the 1203(0) switches in favor of the 12070 when I need them and can find them because I have a LOT of old LGB switch machines and some of them have become too weak to dependably throw a 1203(0). Actually I am too cheap anyway so I am seldom willing to pay for a 1203/7 when a DPDT toggle switch will work just as well (if not better over the years). There are 150+ (mostly LGB) R1, R3 & R5 turnouts on my layouts so I've had a lot of practice wiring them.

The Wye inside the double dog bone is a bit tricky as it involves driving a loco through and shorting between a Jumbo and a 51070 and then picking the right polarities to get into and out of the Wye (no reverse loop modules). The Jumbo drives the main loop and the 51070 drives the inner loop and Wye. I had been using a Central Station III on the outer loop and a 55090 on the inner loop and Wye but just replaced them with a 1210Z on the outer loop & 1203 on the inner loop & Wye (now I need to figure out how to insert the reverse loop modules. 

The wiring helps keep the grey matter working.

Jerry


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

My solution was to place the 8 insulators on the four sets of diverging rails coming off turnouts 1 and 2.


Power up the left section of the loop with the power pack (left of turnouts 1 and 2). Use the dpdt to swith the power from the left section over to the rest of the layout connected as shown (i.e., no other insulators required).

Wire the rails from the left section to the two center poles on the dpdt. Wire two of the outter poles of the dpdt to the right section. Do a crossover between the four outter poles of the dpdt to effect a reverse current when the dpdt is toggled.


That's all there is too it.  It was just a matter of thinking about it a little differently. 


If you want to use the outter loop, don't reverse the current. If you want to run the figure 8, toggle the reverse current. This can be automated to occur automatically when the turnouts are thown using the 1203 or latching relays.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

riderdan said:


> I don't have room on my layout for a large-radius wye, but I like the idea of being able to "turn" trains around without resorting to picking them up. I've had several ideas about how to accomplish this ranging from modifying an LGB three-way switch (so it never goes straight) to my current brainstorm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like this one too. Because it's not the same old thing. 

JJ


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