# Why no garden railway cities?



## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Having studied yet again a large industrial building that might make a good model, I was wondering why garden railway folks don't build cities with warehouses, industries and such all linked by switch track with a bunch of sidings. The HO scalers and the like all do this (Walthers's makes a gazzilion factories, mills, refineries, powerplants and all), but with the exception of a few building fronts on the Del Oro Pacific modular layout, you just don't see any city scenes, which I think would be ideal for someone who has a very narrow backyard backing up on a fence or a wall. True, you wouldn't have room to watch the trains go 'round and 'round as many of you like to do, but you could do a lot of switching--you know--dropping off cars at one place, picking them up at another. Plus you could have all kinds of switch engines--diesels and 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 steamers or maybe even electrics. Whatcha think?


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

G scale model railway cities have been done now and again. The example that leaps to mind here is 'Cicley' on Blackburns 'Copper River Railway'/'Alcanex' project, which fills an entire building. He also had another building dedicated to a single mining complex. Wonder whats going on with him anyhow?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

two words: too big!  

Scot


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think it's the size involved in doing that in large scale. Small towns take up a fair amount of space in their own right. To do a city justice, you'd almost need to take up the average back yard. When you look at the industrial buildings that are built to a reasonable approximation of scale relative to our trains, they're HUGE! 

Later, 

K


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Tortoise Town:


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

For me, one of the coolest train videos on u-tube are the trains running down the middle of a city street. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XrlVVhRMDM&feature=related 

Randy


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

How 'bout this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSqNx7vJLDE&NR=1


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Scotty and Kevin, 

Not the whole dang city! Just a half dozen industries with switches and sidings. No main line except just enough room for an imaginary local to drop off some cars.. Actually, MR did a three? part series written by Tony Koester on building a small, modular large scale model railroad a couple of years ago. And back in the day, there was the late John Allen's legendary "time saver" where you had to shuttle a freight car from one point to another--through several switches and such--in the shortest time. And please, don't ask, "Who was John Allen? :-(


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Who??? (Just kidding!  ) 

That raises the other "there ain't much of..." and that's people who do prototype operations in large scale. You're absolutely correct; small spaces are ideal for switching layouts, which are ideal for industrial complexes and the like. It's just that the percentage of garden railroaders who gravitate towards prototype operations is pretty small. I'd probably bet the number of people who do prototypical operations in large scale is smaller than the number of people who have built large industries to sit lineside on their railroads and just watch the trains run by. 

Later, 

K


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Does a coal mine count as an industry? 








http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/coalmine.html 

Not only is space a factor, the COST to build an urban scene would be prohibitive as well. Besides, (personally) I prefer plants to concrete


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

City? Like this?


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

joe, 
i agree with the others. size does matter. 

an industrial building in LS, that is occupying less than two square foot is too small. 
and those, who have big layouts, where there would be room, have enough work with maintenance. even if there are not many buildings. 

the other option - a fake city consisting of flats and background paintings - either needs very much money, or very good artistic skills. 

while N or H0 modellers make complex worlds, largescalers just try to build layouts, that give an impression, transmit an idea of a world. 
.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, 

Right as usual. Kinda discouraging though...


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Another thing with cities. If you do not leave the scratch-built buildings outside, then there is the storage problem. 
Ron


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

*Agreed, too big and not to mention, too expensive too







*
*I've seen some good sixed town posted over the years here. Even I did one way back when *
*on the big layout I used to have.*










*So I guess you got to have the $$$ and the space to build it.*

*Rocky*


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## lvst4evr (Feb 28, 2008)

I somewhat agree with you Joe. One doesn't need a whole city, but just a small town with a few houses & some commercial buildings with sidings to service them! Right now I have a temp. layout (35'X10') setup on a side driveway, covered by a metal canopy. In the middle is a 5 track "ladder yard" with a couple of spurs coming off it that will service a few industries OF WHICH I HAVE NO BUILDINGS YET!!! I can't understand why there is so much super detailed structures (THAT ARE AFFORDABLE ), available in H.O. & hardly anything in "G"! I, personally, don't have the time to "scratch build" structures. Colorado Models is about the only one that has affordable plastic kits now! I've got some DPM plastic h.o. building kits that are still in the box & the detail on them is awesome when assembled! It sure would be nice if one of those mfgs. would do a few structures in plastic for us "G scalers"??? You mean to tell me that you & I & maybe a handful of others are the only "G scalers" that want to do a few "switching moves" when we have a operating session, as oposed to watching trains run around a loop, continuously??? 
I have the rolling stock stored on the yard ladder tracks & then the switcher comes & takes a couple of 6 freight car sets out to the "staging track" I have coming off the outer edge of the loop. After that the "road loco" comes out & hooks up to the 12 car train & takes off down the "main"! Is that boring or too much work or ??? After 12-15 runs around the "main" the train is backed into the staging track & the road loco unhooks & the switcher comes in & shuffles the cars back into the yard or whatever industry tracks they should go to! I operated my Lionel trains this way when I was a kid back in the early 50's & it's the way I will always do it! All the kids in the neighborhood would bring their trains over & run them on my layout because they got tired of watching the train run in circles around the Christmas tree! We'd run trains for hours & I hope that experience instilled a lifelong love of trains in them, that they were able to pass on down to their kids!!! Jim Spanier


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jim, 
We are a much more limited market and not evrybody has space or desire for one or several, so the market shrinks again. Weren't they the first to start limited editions, bump the price a tad to offset low volume? And that was in big HO. 

My thinking and era modled suggests a linear layout w/ reverse loop ends traveling through a couple three townships with switching and set outs along the way. Perhaps a central yard and branch line and the suggestion of a larger railroad town. 


Many just want to get in their gardens to get away from the city! 

John


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm working on building a small feed mill for my layout that measures 119'x 114' x 72' high. It workes out in 1/29th to roughly 4'x4'x3', and that's a small industry in terms of rail service. The feed mill generally got 2 to 3 box, or grain cars every other day so it wouldn't be switched that often. I'm planning on using this building as one of my focal points on the railroad. But the city of Redmond in 1970 (the year I'm modeling) as had a 72' x18' station that I plan on modeling in full size. On other parts of the layout I'm thinking about making building flats for certain structures, but also plan on using full sized structures. So in otherworks a large scale industrial switching layout would reqiure a lot of space if you modeled full sized buildings, instead of building flats. 
Craig


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 17 Jul 2010 12:00 PM But the city of Redmond in 1970 (the year I'm modeling) as had a 72' x18' station that I plan on modeling in full size. Craig 

If you have the room for a full-size station that measures 72' x 18' then what kind of trains are you going to be running? That is going to be some heck of a layout - we need pictures!!!

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. Foley

The following for perusal at your leisure.

Buildings Forum/Topic: Research of Historical buildings[/b]


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, you are right on my wave length, even your comments about how many building kits and things there are in HO. I'm on the Walther's mailing list and I am amazed at how much stuff that outfit cranks out. And that's not even counting other manufacturers like DPM and all. How can that segment of the hobby (HO) support all of that inventory? I know there are a lot of HO modelers (about 50 percent of all the model railroaders out there), but how much stuff can they buy before they are financially tapped out or bored? I know it takes big bucks to make dies for a plastic model (I once did a story on Revel), but I'd think that production costs would be about the same for HO and G (OK, so maybe the die is bigger). But think of how much more they could soak us, er, charge for a large-scale building. 

Of course, speaking for myself, even if a large-scale kit was available, I'd probably build my own structures, because the good stuff that's out there tends to be expensive. Never mind that by the time I count up my own man hours, my building costs way more than a kit would have. I guess you call that "sweat equity," or something like that. 

Back on the in-line, industrial switching layout concept, I got to thinking about how much room you'd eat up just laying a few #6 turnouts end to end. Also, of how much room just three or four cars take up. I'm guessing it would take up 20 linear feet. As for buildings, I'm thinking mostly flats, with a couple of actual strutctures (small) in the foreground. I do know one thing: I could sell this ilong and narrow layout idea to dw a lot easier than telling her I want to tear up her flower garden so's I can build some mountains and stuff. Stay tuned


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, I was just thinking (uh, oh!), Richard "Port Orford" Smith has a linear layout to which he is adding various lineside industries. Maybe he could grow it into something more urban.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

OK!! I finally found the photos, I was looking for....
It is the Nashville GRS which had a layout in a shopping mall. I found this in July 2002.
A very nice job on a city, no to mention an Airport. Take a look at this stuff... sorry for the loosey photography.























































All indoors of course... I skipped the BIG bridge photo..


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Besides the issue of trying to fit very larger structures into the typically limited space, I suspect that another reason you don't see urban/industrial settings in outdoor layouts is that most folks who do layouts outdoors, do _garden_ railroads, with emphasis on the garden. A few small buildings fit into the garden better (i.e., are less obtrusive) than large industrial structures would.


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## lvst4evr (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey guys, all I was thinking of for my future elevated backyard layout was a small country town with a few houses, a gas station, a couple of stores & a few single story commercial buildings with sidings to service them. Maybe a grain elevator too! Not going to get too exotic, but I'm a big fan of ROUNDHOUSES & TURNTABLES! Sure would like to tuck those into a corner of the layout! Some of the posted pictures of your towns sure look great! There's sure a lot of talent out there! Thanks again for your advice. 
Hey Joe, sounds like you live in the So.Cal. area? I do too! E-mail me if you get a chance. [email protected] Jim


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## Paulus (May 31, 2008)

A "little piece" of city on a layout I remembered posted here last year: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/7/aft/102227/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Let's not over look the real fact that even a half mile in 1/29th is over 30 actual yards...a model of a steel plant up here in NE England would measure 182 x 151 YARDS - 5.7 ACRES. 

That's prolly why most of us model the great outdoors - it's large and it's free. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe I like the concept of the industrial side of a City, and am working towards one in a 20ft x 10ft area. I shall use a lot of flats and compressed buildings. But as has been said, a reasonable building is huge in 1/29, even my two bay Diesel engine house is almost as big as my dogs house!
I look forwards to seeing others contributions along these lines.
Rod


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Cool photos of the city! Of course, the reason Ray doesn't do cities--can you imagine the time it would take him to detail each office in the building? I'm pretty sure Dos Manos building #5 is going to have working electrical outlets.  

In terms of switching layouts, number 6 switches do take up a fair amount of space. I've got one I built in my workshop using Aristo 5' radius switches that takes up about 15' x 2'. I had at one time built it in modular form to take to meets, etc,. but its only excursion was a steam-up in Diamondhead one year. Last fall, I decided I needed a proper test-bed in the workshop, so I tore it up and rebuilt it as a shelf railroad along one wall in the shop. It's based on this puzzle here: http://www.largescalecentral.com/fun/shunting/riverside.php . The only difference is that I can only fit three cars on the lead, where the puzzle lets you put as many as needed there. That limits me to fewer than 6 cars on the puzzle at once. (I've done 5, but they've got to be short cars with a short locomotive.) 

No scenery as of yet (perhaps this winter...) 

Later, 

K


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

See, now yer talkin.' 

Rod,your plan sounds right. After posting last night I dug out some Kalmbach books such as "Building City Scenery," and looked at track plans in other books. Actually, the cover shot of the scenery book has just what I envisioned--tracks winding among warehouses with numerous sidings and such, and a couple of diesel switchers with a few cars (I would use steam, of course). The thin I like is the rails are set into the pavement, because it's in the street, so no need for ballast, etc. I would post a photo of the cover, but then the copyright police (and maybe the site admin) would get all over me. Maybe you could find it in the listings of Kalmbach books (it's by John Pryke, done in 2000). 

Kevin, I knew I could count on you to come through with something relevant. BTW--and not related to this post--Steve C. linked me up with the Library of Congress, which is a gold mine for a structure-building buff like me. One of the mills I checked out looks a lot like a New England-style home, so I thought I could leave off the water wheel and just build the house. The nice thing about the LOC site is it has drawings with dimensions, including window pane sizes. Yea!


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Richard, thanks for the pix, which illustrate my point quite well.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

There does seem to be something kind of oxymoronic about using the words "Garden" and "City" in the same sentence. If it is a "city scape" then there would be little in the way of "garden" in it. Kind of hard to model some "windowbox gardens" in a real Garden with real plants.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Ya can build a model city in a garden. Who sez a garden has to have growing things in it? It's just a plot of land behind a house, mostly. What about guys like Ray Dunakin? His "garden" railway has nothin' but rocks (Yeah, I know, that makes it a rock garden).


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I have always said I have a "Backyard railway" as opposed to a "Garden Railway"... it is just a 1:32 scale model railroad, there is no "garden" to it because it is all elevated on stilts. If it were on the ground, I'd have to call it a "Weedpatch Railway" or maybe a "Creeping Charlie Railway", but "Garden" would be quite a misnomer.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I have some big boxwood evergreen bushes. They're pretty ugly but they grow large and take up space. I wonder if I couldn't paint an old bedsheet to look like a building and then drape it over the boxwood when I wanted to have an open house. Just an idea. How much does a bedsheet cost? We grow stuff outside, anyway. Sure, it is not the same as a detailed, scale model, but on the other hand, the boxwood is weather proof and if I get tired of the way something is, I can always repaint the sheet. When I am done with the event or photo shoot, I can remove the sheet and store it inside to keep it from getting moldy, etc.. and return my backyard to a more 'garden' look.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Tac,
Sorry to be so long in replying back but yes I will need quite a large area to have if I can eventually build everything that I want. Now if my wife agrees to that it could be something else!
I haven't posted pictures on my topic for a while, but I'll try and get some up on my weekend (Sun, or Mon). 
I'm not really planning on running much other then a couple of locals on my layout, but I would rather have a couple of complete structures that dominate the railroad then having a town built up of smaller buildings that lookout of place. The ironic thing is that most prototype buildings are quite small but large in any scale like HO so when you build then to scale in 1/29 or even 1.0/20.3 they are even larger. 
Craig


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe I'm an odd duck, but I kinda LIKE just watching the trains running free through greenery and such. I find it very relaxing


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