# Brass Track Divots Mystery



## sldozier (Apr 5, 2009)

Greetings All


Wasn't sure if I should post this here nor not, so Mods please feel free to move to whichever forum is appropriate.

I have a combination of Aristocraft Brass and Stainless Steel track on a raised platform. 

As I walked around the layout to clean off items (twigs, leaves, etc) that might might derail my train, I noticed these indentations in several pieces of curved track.

Just so happens that all my curves are brass. Picture posted below, I hope.


I have checked all my locos and rolling stock and so far haven't found any wheels that could be causing the indentations. In additional to the locos (2 Aristo U-25B's and 1 USA Trains SD40-2) I have metal wheels on most of my Aristo rolling stock.










Has anyone seen or experienced this issue before?


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I have seen a similar mark after an Accucraft K was stoped on the track by debris, the loco wheels continued to move wearing 8 divots into the track. 

Have you had a loco spin its wheels in these locations? 

Alan


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## sldozier (Apr 5, 2009)

Now that's a possibility I hadn't thought of. While I can't be sure of the exact location on the track, I have had several instances of locos spinning it's wheels, and it's almost always happens on curves! 

Hmmm..... I think the mystery is solved. Thanks Alan. 

That's got to be what's causing it. I have this propensity to add too much rolling stock at times for the locos I'm running (gotta test that loco's pulling power), and not realizing until now, that by doing so, I'm actually damaging the track!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks to me like a blemish made during manufacturing. Notice that the dents are NOT centered over the top of the rail. Note also that it looks like the rail has been "upset" as though it was struck with something heavy. Get some photos of the other pieces of track. ONE photo doesn't really tell the tale. All guessing right now.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

That is caused by engine wheels spinning in one spot. You may have had a derailment that stopped the forward movement, but did not cause a short, so the drivers continue to turn. I have several places on my track where this has happened.

Other than cosmetic, it doesn't seem to effect the passage of trains.

Chuck N


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree that it does *not* look like the result of a loco spinning its wheels.. 
every Large scale loco I have ever seen has wheels that are wider than the rail..or at least as wide.. 
I have never seen a loco where the wheels/drivers could wear into only half the width of the rail, and not the full width.. 
that desnt make any sense.. 
also, they would be longer front to back, those indentations look to only be about 1/4 inch long.. 
most loco wheels would make much longer "grooves".. 

could be a manufacturing defect in the rail.. 
but what are the odds that two defects would be exactly across from each other? 
seems they would be much more randomly spaced.. 

weird! I dont have any guesses as to what it could be! 
spinning loco wheels seems the most obvious, but I just cant think of any wheels that could make such small indentations, 
in both length and width, and that wouldnt be the full width of the rail head.. 


Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a slight taper on all wheels, therefore the divot would be deeper along the inside of the rails. If the spinning was stopped soon after it started, it might not dig a pit all the way across. Also note in the picture that there a a slightly wider pit on the outside rail than on the inside rail. Wheels are designed to throw the car towards the outside tail on the curve. In my mind the wear is consistent with with wheel slipping. 

Chuck N 


ps unfortunately, I'm not home and therefore can't post pictures of known wheel spinning divots.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Are they all near your mounting screws like in the photo?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If you look at the pic you will see that the marks are accross from one another indicating what we know in the real world as engine burns caused by wheel slip which causes flat spots in the rail. In your case these are not critical to your train operation and about all you will hear is more cl icky clack just as you would at the rail joints. In the case of real railroading these could become dangerous resulting in rail failures which in turn causes derailments in most cases. I think you are safe tho. Later RJD


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## sldozier (Apr 5, 2009)

In the 2 pictures I have, the divots are immediately to the left of a mounting screw. I noticed that as well. The second picture is posted below. I'll have to check the remaining section(s) of track when it's daylight outside. I know of atleast 2 other sections of track that contains divots. 










To address some other "much appreciated" comments: 

Manufacturing defects? I agree, what are the odds that four separate sections of track would develop divots exactly across form each other. 

Blemished or struck by something heavy? This is a 56 ft Length x 12 ft Width oval on a raised platform under a canopy of "really" tall Oak trees, so I get a lot of decent sized branches and twigs on the platform, but again, what are the odds that branches or twigs regardless of their size would make those divots exactly across from each other and only on the curved sections of track. 

Bottom line is I'm keeping an open mind here, but I'm inclined to believe it's the loco's spinning it's wheels, since I know for sure that has happened on several occasions. I'm just glad Alan mentioned it. I certainly hadn't thought of it, and although I know brass is a soft metal, I never though it would be that easy to wear.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Near the screws makes me wonder if somehow if this was related to the mounting of the track, (clamps used?), don't think a drill/screwdriver would do this, but more than interesting regardless..... 

I have had some lok wheels dig some holes in brass track, but they did look different than this, and in my case (LGB) across the whole rail.


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

Is there a loco with only one pair of drive wheels? Wouldn't there be another set of divots to the left or right of this original set, spaced for the power block if it was wheel spin? Or if a bigger engine, (two power blocks) another set of divots spaced the distance between the power blocks. 

Perhaps a clamp indent from holding the track in a vise while cutting?


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you usually run the same train? 

Something's causing the train to hesitate there, like pulling a heavy car or string of cars around a curve or on a grade. Look back along the track for a steep grade, a crooked joint, a sudden change in grade or somesuch.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

hmmm.. 
in the two photos, the divots are not *directly* across from each other, 
they are not exactly in line with other, when compared to tie centerlines.. 
but what is interesting is that they are *equally* off center in both photos! 

theory: 
something caught on the screw, a coupler of something low-hanging, causing the train/loco to stop, 
some set of wheels remains spinning..same loco both times. 

I still find it bizzare that a loco wheel could dig that far into the rail..seems like it would take many many hours to dig that 
deep..like a day or something..but perhaps not. 

Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot:

It takes less than a minute to start grinding the rail. Brass is a relatively soft metal. 

If there were traction tires on the other axle there would be only one pair of divots.

Chuck


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## sldozier (Apr 5, 2009)

Do you usually run the same train? 
Finished the layout last spring, started with a 1 Aristo U-25B, added another later in the summer. I've recently added a USAT SD40-2 that doesn't have but maybe a couple of hours of actually run time on it. I typically switch up what I run for rolling stock every time I run. 

If there were traction tires on the other axle there would be only one pair of divots. 
Don't think the U25-B's have traction tires, but then again I don't really know what traction tires are! 

Perhaps a clamp indent from holding the track in a vise while cutting? 
Definitely not a clamp indent, I don't even own any clamps!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

As noted, it was probably something that sticks down/hangs from the engine that caught the track screw stalling the train while letting the wheels continue to run. The marks you note can be ground in less than a minute and I have several of these, typically where an engine/Kadee hangs up on a turnout for whatever reason.

If they really bother you or are deep enough to be a bother, you can clean the railhead really well and lay some solder on it. Clean the solder away from the inside of the railhead and run a small file, then a track cleaning engine over it to smooth it out and remove the divot. Yeah, it will be a little softer than the railhead, but no big deal.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's divits of the real kind. YIKES


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry Randy those aren't ground divots on the real shot you provided...they are from the heat of the fire causing the rail to soften and the weight of the loco sunk into the rails. 

Chas


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep Randy not quite the same. The rest of the pic are awesome also. Later RJD


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys 

I was being sarkastic?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Looks like wheels burn to me, plus the track could have moved slightly due to exspandsion and contraction due to weather..... Seen this this summer on one of our newly built layouts.Its amazing how quick it can happen. Try SS track dont think you would have the problems.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Good call Nick. Glade to see someone else looking at what is clear and that the rail has moved due to expansion. If you notice also the ties are skewed which indicates rail movement. Later RJD


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

A 2 axle engine that derailed only one axle would cause the damage shown and explains the offset. 
A 4 axle engine would have to have 1 truck off the track plus 1 axle of the other truck and cause this wear also. 

So I feel it was a derailment with only one axle left on the track.


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dan,

that sounds good!
A bit strange, because i never saw something like this...but maybe there are MANY things i havent seen till now... :-D 

In prototypical duty, it often appears.
In the big depot here nearby my home (nearby...11km) they had a track and a bumper where they drove in with steam-locos that got a sliding-plate in the wheels from braking.
They moved carfully in front of the bumper and then opened the throttle.
The wheels slipped and the slipping-plate got terminated.

But somtimes (and because they had many locos of the same class), the dents on the rails were THAT deep, that the loco didnt find out by itself.

Im shocked to see this at a gardentrack.

How long has a loco to work in place to do this?
Like i told: i never had this!


Frank


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## ZachsPappaw (Jan 3, 2008)

he's modeling welded rail


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

We have one line in the outdoor Botanic that has a whole bunch of those on one bridge. The same train runs there the same direction 10 hours a day 7 days a week for 5 1/2 months. There's a fairly tight curve and an Aristo E8 pulls a string of heavyweights. Each car seems to hold the train back just a hair as it comes past a certain point. On each pass, the divots get just a little deeper. Probably replace a piece of track this spring before opening.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And add a loco, or fewer cars, or lower the rolling resistance (a lot). 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Took me a while to find it, but I just knew I had seen a discussion of this in the 1:1 world... it is called "rail burn" ... see:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,303366


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Are the "hoses" on the Kadees snagging the screw head. If you are not using magnets for uncoupling, cut of the "hose" with a pair of nippers.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I've seen those. They are in the UP yard in West Sacramento. It came from spinning the wheels a lot.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stefan:

Traction tires are plastic rings that fit in slots in the wheels. On all of USAT diesels that I have, one axle in each motor block has all metal wheels and the other axle has the traction tires on the wheels. I do not have any Aristo diesels so I don't know about their traction tires.


If the motor block that created the divots had derailed, the divots would not be exactly opposite each other, one would slightly lead the other.

Chuck


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

If the block had derailed wouldn't the other 2 wheels cut the plastic ties up far worse than the 2 wheels damaged the brass rails?


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I had some new Aristo strait track that had similar divots. Brand new, out of the box. Out of the 12 pieces, there were about 4 that had the same divots in the same location. I used the pieces anyway, and they have not caused a problem, but did find it curious at the time and wondered how it happened. 

Mark


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe the LGB elephant stepped on the Aristo track.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

"mgilger" - Please don't take this personal, but.... 

That is the cutest puppy I've ever seen (your avatar), and I've seen a lot of puppies. Weimeraner (sp?)? I may have to get one. 

jack 

Sorry, I know it's OT.


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Stefan

Your track divots are a mystery to me. What I do notice in your photo is the rust on the screw. I assume you have used a sheet rock or other non-weather proof screw to afix your track to the wooden base. I believe you will find in a year these screws will rust through and break off. It would be a good idea to as quickly as possibly unscrew these rusted screws and replace with a weatherproof decking screw. If you wait too long and then try to back out the screws they will simply break off and you will then have rusted stumps of screws that may not hold your track in place.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

maybe they "test" the track at the manufacturing facility, put an egg liner on it (or something else), flip the power switch on (engine starts spinning its wheels) then off it goes, when it reaches the end, they stop it and pack the track up. 

OR 

Maybe the machine that makes the track, did it. 

Some ideas that popped into my head


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe we could get an enlarged picture, but from what I see, it looks more like a dent in the rail, not something wearing the rail.

A locomotive wheel's tread width is typically wider than the rail head, so any wear would be across the entire rail head.

From what I can see on the picture, the "divot" does not extend all the way to the sides of the rail, it indeed looks like a divot in the top of the rail.

My guess is a dent from production or handling when packaging, not a loco.

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

....and odd that they are at the screws?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My guess is that it's coincidental, but it's a guess... maybe a fixture that holds the rails while the ties are added and the screws affixing the ties to the rails are installed... 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

He said he did not do it, but.... and I do think they are dents not wheel grinds too Greg.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I meant the screws underside that hold the ties to the rails, the little bitty ones. I think it was from the factory. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, forgot about those little guys.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My thought was that when these screws are installed, there must be something against the rail heads to "push against". Who knows if this is a fixture that could damage the rail. 

Just a thought. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The indentations in the rail can be uneven and not totally spread out on the rail head if even caused by wheel slip. Remember there are tapers to the rail head and the wheels so unless the unit sits there and spins it's wheel for a short period you will not get full contact. Also in the real world these indent are know as engine burns. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

I agree RJ, i do know a thing or two about divits, As i have one on my forhead from an exwife cause she thought i was being unreasonable







and thru a hot iron at me !!!!!!! Go figure?







UNREASONABLE...........Please.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yesterday I was setting up my "Winter Garden Railroad fix" on the pateo of our home in Sun City, Arizona. We'll be here for a couple of months. I noticed that one of my LGB 16000 series switches had two pair of divots in it. They appear to be of different ages. The smaller pair is black and is not polished out with the drywall sander and the green scotchbright pad. The larger one has some brass showing in the bottom of the pit. It appears that I had two different episodes of wheel slip. Neither divot extends all the way across the rail head. My guess is that over the years my repeated use of the drywall sander and the green scotchbright pad has slightly rounded the top of the rail.









































Sorry that the pictures aren't better.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wheel slip 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Wheel slip happens. I have yet to see damaged track that I didn't cause. 

Chuck


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## sang_route (Sep 24, 2008)

So each railhead is curved and most wheelsets are tapered to aid in centering the car and keep it pulling straight. As the rail wears the cruve in the head becomes more promounced and eventually cause damage.
Parts of the rail.










Taper on the wheels riding surface.










Damaged Rail.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Track removed from Children’s Hospital Layout after call stating USAT NW2 won’t run. 
Both motor blocks were fried.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that's what I call serious wheel slip. If you look carefully at the divot on the right side you will notice that the divots do not involve the entire rail head. They were ground out with a little rim on the outside of each rail, unlike the divots on the left which cross the entire rail head. That motor block has wheels with significantly different back to back settings for the two axles.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That could be true. 

Also, the the taper of the wheels causes the contact near the flange first, where the wheel diameter is. Our model wheels have severe taper. 

In addition, it might be that, due to conditions, the axle where the wear is greatest could have more weight on it than the other axle. 

Many possibilities. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

I agree about the taper, but the hole on the right has a very sharp edge where the entire tread has cut down inside the outside of the rail. It looks as if it was cut with a milling machine (the harder wheel from the locomotive). 


Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Upon looking closer, you are indeed right... (next I use a computer with a larger screen!) 

Yep, the back to back must be terrible, since it's both sides... wow... 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Or it could be that now one of the wheels is not turning and slipping on the axle shaft. Later RJD


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

The gears on both motor blocks were stripped and we've seen this type of wear pattern over the years. I think RJD has it right, the last axle with the best gear engagement and no split hubs, cuts the deepest notch.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim:

Are the divots (craters) from one block or one axle on each motor block? I tried counting ties and matching the distance on your picture with the USA Trains pictures on their web site. Nothing matched up. My guess is that the tie spacing is different, or I can't count!

If they are from different blocks are there traction tires on the other axles so that they didn't dig the divots?

Chuck


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck, I just checked the divot spacing on the track and it turns out they match the GP40 motor blocks perfectly. We fried the motor blocks on the GP40 about 3 months ago and apparently no one noticed the bad section of track. This is an overhead double tracked layout, which is suspended below the ceiling of the walkway betweeen the parking garage and the hospital and is not easily accessible. The Club does maintenance on the layout about every 3 months and we try to "walk" the track each time.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim:

Thanks for the update. It is hard for me to believe that trains could go through those craters without derailing or getting stuck in the bottom. I guess that is a good argument for our oversized flanges and treads.


Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Another GP40 up in smoke? Don't tell Lewis. 

Greg


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Are those Darn GP-40s up to no good again? He He He.
Johnn


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Can't blame it on the GP40. One of the problems with a layout in a public environment is that no one monitors it. The trains are turned on in the morning and off at night. If there's a derailment, the engine will set there until it dies or the TE blows a fuse.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Sure we can.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee wees Nick You got to give them a break once in a while. It was an un maned train.







Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Un manned train? What a way to run a RR............







he he he


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