# How Do You Access the Internet?



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

[No message]


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Other than curiosity, why do you ask? I admit, I'm rather curious to see the results myself, but I don't know what I'd do with the information.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

DSL


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

The results might be interesting, and the "why" as well. 
We live in a semi-rural area in a state (Vermont) considered "rural" by most standards. Dirt roads, coyotes in the back yard, hawks preying on birds at the feeders, that kind of stuff .Our DirecTV satellite service is great, but weather sensitive around here; the area cable company, when I asked when they were coming down my dirt road, said in so many words, "not in your lifetime". So, when the family-owned small telephone company that services our town (pop. 700) offered DSL, we traded up from dialup. That was the only real choice for us. 

Larry


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken

The info is very helpful in deciding the acceptable limits for posting things like photos to the forum. Those on dialup have a difficult time with anything beyond text or small pictures while there is constant pressure from those on highs speed connections to more fully exploit the technology.

Regards ... Doug


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I was still on snail-fast dail-up till two years ago, but even now DSL service is getting noticably slower, its not the service, its the shear size of some websites.


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## Kevin Miller (Jan 5, 2008)

Option #4 Verizon mobile broadband. Only other choice for high speed where I live is Satellite.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I pick up the phone and call Algore. 
He does it for me.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

2 T1 lines


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

With a plug


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Need another choice in the poll.I am on Fibre to the house. It DESTROYS my old DSL. 
Jonathan/EMW


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Premium "level" with my cable company, 2 megabits up, 14 megabits down... $40 a month. 

Good enough to watch 8 cameras remotely (next remote control of the trains!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Dale Loyet (Feb 12, 2008)

Had dial up for two years. Three years ago we moved up to DSL. It was a good choice !


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

DSL. Some dialup when I'm on the road.


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## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

Had dialup since the beginning of time. Now have satelite. Now I will be looking at the photos and videos. 
John


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## MikeK (Jan 3, 2008)

None of the above - T1 line.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy Scouts with semaphore flags.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't know what happened to my reply the first time. Clicked on a radio button choice, and the whole reply was gone. Let me try this again. I'll try to get as close to the original message as possible.

Still on dialup. Our computer is so old that it probably should run on steam, but it does use electricity. DSL was pitched to us a few years ago, but then Verizon told us that they could not support anything older than a Pentium 4. You guessed it, we own a Pentium 3.

As for the cable prices in our area, well my opinion of them is that at least Jesse James had the decency to use a gun when he robbed people like that.

My wife and I both have low-paying jobs right now, so there is no new computer in the near future. We will muddle through. I just play a few games of Solitaire while I wait for the pictures to download, I can view the videos from my computer at work.

Sorry to sound so gloomy. It's not my usual disposition.

Yours,
David Meashey


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Still stuck with dialup here. Finally got a new computer last year, so at least there's a chance. When I move up it'll be to DSL. Cable company wants an arm, a leg and a couple internal organs for Roadrunner. 

Main thing that's keeping me from getting DSL right now is money, also I haven't been able to find out how it'll affect my AOL -- need to keep AOL so I can keep my email address.


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## Warbonnet (Jan 3, 2008)

I still use the dial up, it's low cost and I'm not going to spend a lot of money on a newer computer and more money on the high speed when it can go to paying bills and some left for trains. I get done what I want to do on this one just fine. Jake


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Primary access for me is cable (Comcast), been on it since they started offering it this area. Will consider Verizon's direct fibre (FIOS) system if they ever make it available in my town. Also have T1 access from work. Third & newest way is via my Apple iPhone 3G - I can now carry MLS (& the rest of the internet!) in my pocket!







Tom


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am on Dial Up. There is no Cable on this side of the freeway in New River. and I am too far away for DSL I am saving up for HUGES NET. I want the buy the equipment out right.

The Backhoe had priority over internet.

It took me over 2 hrs to download Jim C's Banquet video (literaly)


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

None of those, on 30/30 fibre


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## Henson (Jan 2, 2008)

DSL up 4mbps, down 512kbps.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Dial up!Need the break between loading to do some Dental work! 
Is it true with DSL you get color screen? Just kidding!!! 
manfred Diel SA #1313


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Stuck with dial-up. The we're in a 6 unit townhouse, 4 of the units, and the people on BOTH sides of us have DSL... but WE are "too far away from the office"...


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

None of the above, Verizon FIOS here for the last couple of years, its so damn much faster than 
either DSL or cable I've had in the past, no comparison... BTW, the TV and phone service is much 
superior with FIOS as well, and the cost is rather reasonable when packaged too... If it ever 
becomes available to U, grab it, its a big improvement over what what most people have today...
Paul R...


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

AT&T DSL, which is buggy as all get out and resets itself every few hours. 3mbps down/512kbps up. Hopefully getting fiber in the area soon-I'll go for that!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

I maintain DSL both at the bar and at home. Dial-up is simply too slow for my purposes. Even the "high-speed" DSL is a relative term. Our local provider offers several options. I have the slowest DSL option in the bar and the next one up (in speed) at home.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

.._ _._..._. .._._ _. _ _ ... (ah... to heck with it! I give up...) ..._ _ _... ..._ _ _...


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2009)

Roadrunner high speed internet access through Time-Warner cable company - and I LOVE IT!


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## jlyans (Jan 2, 2008)

dsl


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I would have broken up the poll to show: 
Dialup 
Slow DSL 128 or less 
Fast DSL over 128 
sattellite 
Cable 
fios 
T1 

When posting, I try to show links to large files so only those interested will go and look at the large files. Also i try to mention the file size. 30 meg on dialup is not fun!!!!


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

Comcast cable. 

Good Poll. Nice to see what people are using without to much complication.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

Broadband dsl, or at least our (UK) version of it! 

We are generally saddled with an old government (monopoly)corporation now privatized that still has the original copper wire system that it attempts to tell us in the best - as usual they are speaking rubbish! 

But at a reasonable cost that is all we have!!!


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

We use comcast [cable] for the last 4 years

Chuck


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

I have fast DSL, what a different in internet speed, can see more faster 
never go back. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I click on a little globe icon on my toolbar.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you sure it isn't two Dixie Cups and a string?


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I don't need a computer, I'm telepathetic









(Comcast cable)


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 10/02/2008 9:07 PM
Still stuck with dialup here. Finally got a new computer last year, so at least there's a chance. When I move up it'll be to DSL. Cable company wants an arm, a leg and a couple internal organs for Roadrunner. 

Main thing that's keeping me from getting DSL right now is money, also I haven't been able to find out how it'll affect my AOL -- need to keep AOL so I can keep my email address.






Ray, you might want to Check out *AOL: You've got free e-mail* and *Create a Free AOL Email Address* personally don't like AOL but supposedly you can switch to someone else and still use AOL email.....I use AT&T DSL Pro, the service in the beginning left something to be desired for the last several years has been very good


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Verizon FIOS. Super fast!!!


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

My IP is Cableone but I've been on AOL for so long, I use them for my browser. I went to their "free offer" a long time ago. It works just fine for me. Issues, yeah sometimes, but......


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## NFLDRailway (Apr 10, 2008)

For David who owns a Pentium III, that shouldn't limit you to dialup. A network card is all that is really required. Their software may only run on a Pentium 4, however you can setup the connection manually or buy a dsl router. Which I would do anyways, more secure. A a network professional I should know, if I could only get my railroad networked. 

Sean 
NFLD Railway-Ottawa Divison


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't want to steal this thread but I have a network problem maybe someone could help me with! 

Thanks, 
Johnny


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Johnny, since this is a poll, you should start a new thread... I'll be happy to help you, been in the biz since 69. 

I'll find it, but post in public, and put NT: in front (Not Trains)... a suggestion 

Regards, Greg


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

I have DSL at home, but spend most of my computer time at the office. There I have a DS3 into the Internet plus another DS3 for the intraoffice MPLS. I've got a third DS3 broken down to 28 T1s for some PRIs and point-to-point stuff. If the economy ever gets better and we start making money again, we'll finish our VoIP conversion and I'll pull in another DS3 to cover that. We've got an OC3 coming into the switch room, but it is capable of doing OC48 if we ever need it.

On my last utilization report, we peaked at a little over 30 MHz, but normally we peak at just under 20 and average around 12.

If the originating server can handle it, I can download a 4.5Gig DVD in a little under ten minutes.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Home computer: Fiber to the pole & cable to the house; 6Mb/s download, 1Mb/s upload. (I was on 56K dial up for years and learned work around ways to tolerate it for a long time.) 
Work computer: T1 line via intranet; often so overloaded / clogged it's not too much better than dial up during peak use times. 

-Ted


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Charter Communications High Speed cable. We've been on this for about eight years. Was 5 megs per second, now10 megs per second. Charter now offers 16 megs per second. Three computers networked in the house. I could never go back to dial-up.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far. I hope those of you who have posted a response have also done the poll on the first post in the thread. If not, please go back and do so.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

DSL from Verizon.


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## John Corradini (Jan 2, 2008)

I use AT&T DSL


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Verizon Wireless Broadband..somedays fast..somedays slow but sure beats dialup..


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I have Optusnet Broadband cable at home. According to this computer it is running at 130 Mbps.

I recently bought a prepaid *3* radio broadband so I could have internet access when interstate. Shows as 3 Mbps.

I now also can use the free WiFi service offered at many McD's restaurants dotted along our highways. I think this is limited to 50MB. I have seen 13 Mbps.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Mine is Embarq 300 mbps when it drops below that i know i have some type of connection problem. I have NOT the highest speed but the one lower than the highest. The Regal


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I use a computer, usually.









DSL.

Les


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## sschaer (Jan 2, 2008)

cable.... 25mbit down, 2.5mbit up. in 2 months the cable company will increase to 100mbit down, 10mbit upload  

$60 per month.


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## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

DSL. Dial-up doesn't exist anymore in the Netherlands.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, how do you access the poll?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim - polls aren't working since the forum software upgrade. They are on the "fix-it" list.


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## DougArcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Cox Cable


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Cox cable. 22Mb down 3.3Mb up to the east coast. 12Mb down and 1.5 up going to LA or Seattle. Speed test download site here. http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ 
Mike


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

Comcast cable. Supposed to be 4MB - hardly ever is.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Use google anayltics at the bottom of this website, 
This will show you what everyone is using bandwidth wise, also screen resolution, do they have flash,, a TON of stuff. I use this to determine my general user base on the websites I build. 
http://www.google.com/analytics/ 
Its free, and very easy to add, get an account and add a few lines at the bottom of your site template.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

When you say "A TON OF STUFF", just what kind of personal info is available?


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ordinarily, I am accessing the internet from home, via DSL to a wireless router. 

Today, however, I am accessing using Amtrak's Club Acela at 30th Street Station!! Isn't ironic? I am surrounded by trains and instead of wandering the station, I am simply sitting looking at MLS!! That's dedication.. 

Mark


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, nothing personal per say, just things like where your general location is, (very broad) and what equiptment your using to access the website, All websites can pull this info up if they want to. Google just makes it easy, builds a nice report. (can I please have my html editor back when creating a post on mylargescale.com lol) 

*Heres a list:* 

*Visitors Overview:* How many new and returning visitors came to your site and how extensively did they interact with your content? This traffic overview allows you to drill down into aspects of visit quality (i.e. average pageviews, time on site, bounce rate) and visit characteristics (i.e. first time visitors, returning visits). 

*Visits:* The number of visits your site receives is the most basic measure of how effectively you promote your site. Starting and stopping ads, changing your keyword buys, viral marketing events, and search rank are some examples of factors that influence the number of visits your site receives. 

*Pageviews:* Pageviews is the total number of pages viewed on your site and is a general measure of how much your site is used. It is more useful as a basic indicator of the traffic load on your site and server than as a marketing measure . 

*Average Pageviews:* Average pageviews is one way of measuring visit quality. A high Average Pageviews number suggests that visitors interact extensively with your site. A high Average Pageviews results from one or both of: 
1. Appropriately targeted traffic (i.e. visitors who are interested in what your site offers 
2. High quality content effectively presented on the site. 
Conversely, a low average pageviews indicates that the traffic coming to the site has not been appropriately targeted to what the site offers or that the site does not deliver what was promised to the visitor. 

*Time on Site:* Time on site is one way of measuring visit quality. If visitors spend a long time visiting your site, they may be interacting extensively with it. However, Time on site can be misleading because visitors often leave browser windows open when they are not actually viewing or using your site. 

*Bounce Rate:* Bounce rate is the percentage of single-page visits (i.e. visits in which the person left your site from the entrance page). Bounce rate is a measure of visit quality and a high bounce rate generally indicates that site entrance (landing) pages aren't relevant to your visitors. You can minimize Bounce Rates by tailoring landing pages to each keyword and ad that you run. Landing pages should provide the information and services that were promised in the ad copy. 

*New vs. Returning:* A high number of new visitors suggests that you are successful at driving traffic to your site while a high number of return visitors suggests that the site content is engaging enough to keep visitors coming back. You can see how frequently visitors return and how many times they return in ‘Recency’ report and the ‘Loyalty report’, both under ‘New vs. Returning’ in the Visitors section. 

*Map Overlay:* Use this map to visualize volume (visits, pageviews) and quality (pageviews per visit, conversion rates, per visit value, etc.) metrics by geographic region. Click on any region to zoom into the city level. 

*Languages:* Which languages do your visitors prefer to use and how do these groups of visitors differ with respect to site usage, conversions, and other metrics? This report captures the preferred language that visitors have configured on their computers. Understanding who your visitors are is crucial to developing the right content and optimizing your marketing spend. Many times, geo-location is not enough. Many countries have diverse populations speaking different languages which present important market targeting opportunities. 

*Loyalty (Visitor Behavior):* Loyal visitors are frequently highly engaged with your brand and a high number of multiple visits indicates good customer/visitor retention. A high number of new visitors (i.e. those on the left of the histogram) indicates strong visitor recruitment. On this histogram, your most loyal visitors are shown on the right and your new and least loyal visitors are shown on the left. 

*Recency (Visitor Behavior):* The frequency with which visitors return to your site can indicate their level of engagement with your brand and their readiness to buy. On this histogram, visitors are categorized according to the number of days that have elapsed since their last visit. For example, new visitors are included in the "0" bar at the left of the histogram. Visitors who last visited the site more than one year ago are included in the 366+ bar. 

*Length of Visit (Visitor Behavior):* Length of visit is a measure of visit quality. A large number of lengthy visits suggests that visitors interact more extensively with your site. The graph allows you to visualize the entire distribution of visits instead of simply the ‘Average Time on Site’ across all visits. Keep in mind that ‘Average Time on Site’ is skewed by visitors leaving browser windows open when they are not actually viewing or using your site. You can see whether a few visits are skewing your ‘Average Time on Site’ upward or whether most visits to your site have a high average time. 

*Depth of Visit (Visitor Behavior):* Depth of visit is a measure of visit quality. A large number of high pageviews per visit suggests that visitors interact extensively with your site. The graph allows you to visualize the entire distribution of visits instead of simply the average pageviews per visit. You can see whether a few visits are skewing your average pageviews per visit upward or whether most visits to your site result in a high number of pages being viewed. 

*Browsers (Browser Capabilities):* Which browsers do your visitors use? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Operating Systems (Browser Capabilities):* Which operating systems do your visitors use? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Browsers and OS (Browser Capabilities):* Which browsers/operating system combinations do your visitors use? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Screen Colors (Browser Capabilities):* How many screen colors can your visitors see? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Screen Resolutions (Browser Capabilities):* Which screen resolutions do your visitors use? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Flash Versions (Browser Capabilities):* Which versions of Flash do your visitors have installed? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Java Support (Browser Capabilities):* Is Java supported on your visitors' platforms? Optimizing your site for the appropriate technical capabilities helps make your site more engaging and usable and can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 

*Network Location (Network Properties):* Which internet service providers do your visitors use? This report allows you to track the internet service provider (ISP) domains to which the user resolves. The domain is determined by the internet service that owns the user's internet _protocol (IP) identifier. 

*Hostnames (Network Properties):* From which hosts are people visiting your site? Hostnames sometimes provide insight into organizations that are interested in what you offer. 

*Connection Speeds (Network Properties):* Which connection speeds are your visitors using? Optimizing your site so that it loads quickly for most visitors can result in higher conversion rates and more sales. 


Thats cut and pasted from google's website. Mostly info so websites can serve you better by making them more compatible. (Yes, one of my many hats is being a professional web designer/programmer lol)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting demographic information. But... 

How does the server know a "New" from a "Returning" visitor? 

If it is storing the web address of the user, they are storing an awful lot of info... I have to assume that periodically the data is wiped or aged out of existance to get rid of the one time visitor from the last millenium. But, depending on what you are providing, wiping the info too often may be missing the user that accesses the site on a yearly basis because of the cyclic nature of their business. 

For most home users, storing the web address would be useless since most ISP's assign a new address each time the home user turns on the PC and starts to access the internet... often the ISP will reassign an address if the user is not actively accessing new content. So one "Returning" visitor could be seen as dozens of "New" visitors. The number of addresses available reduces the possibility of dozens of "New" visitors looking like one "Returning" visitor. 

If it is storing the ISP's address then the demographic is an aggregate of all the customers of that one ISP. Not too useful given the wide demographic of most ISPs. 

If it is storing some piece of info on the user's computer that would almost have to be in a "Cookie". Some users have totally disabled the storing of Cookies on their computer and others, like ME, erase all Cookies at least once per day (and sometimes more often). Thus, "we" could be visiting a site every day and look like a new user to the system every time. 


Programming a site for the most "common" Browser/OS/Java support/etc to exploit their unique capabilities is just shooting possible customers that visit your site but use the "other" Browsers/OS/etc or don't have Java and other "add-ons" and thus cannot execute or display your unique data. 

Same for a decision that since, say, 75-percent of your visitors have high data transfer rates, then an attitude of "who cares about that other 25-percent" is a very poor business decision. 


I have visited many sites that require me to install yet another wizz-bang Add-On and I just don't have time to make their web site cute to visit. :-{ When that happens, I browse elsewhere.  

Granted, programming for the lowest common denominator, would have us still reading text in black and white... but just think how fast the internet would be! ))


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Andrew: 

That's about as comprehensive an answer as I've gotten in a long while. Thanks for the effort. 

I understood--or think I understood--a good deal of it, which is remarkable. 

I NEVER let a site download anything into my computer. My son told me not to. 

Again, thanks.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

ya, google uses session cookies to track you, I think almost every website does this. As a website guy, Alot of the browsers dont like to follow standards of html (aHEM Microsoft Internet Explorer) lol, I try to design the sites so they run in Internet Explorer, Firefox(mozilla based browsers), and Safari. You don't know how many times Ill get something to look right on one of the browser to find out the other browser makes a mess of it. Its a giant Pain lol. 

Usually I try to make a website so it will run on everything, Currently its 961 pixels wide (for 1024X 768 computers), maybe 1 flash banner at the top and the rest html. If I cant get my message across in a few seconds, I know my customers will move on. I will give you a few stats on the biggest site I currently run to give you an idea what the majority viewers on my site use. (average daily unique vistors (by ip address), around 4000). 

I know every website has different demographics that visit them so my stats don't apply to a different site. But its still interesting 

67% use Internet Explorer 
24% user Firefox 
5% use safari 

47% use Cable 
26% use DSL 
21% unknown (could be anything) 
7% use T1 
2% use dialup 

Windows 92% 
Macintosh 5% 
Iphone 1% 

The missing percents are very small and scatter over a huge range of devices/settings 

Its more about development time (or lack of). Making everyone happy would be impossible lol 
Dial-up users can still see everything, its just that they will be downloading a lot longer. 

All websites should be optimized as mush as possible though, small compressed graphics, try not to use flash. Usually you have to pay for bandwidth when you host so its better for the website owner to make the website use less bandwidth also.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You allude to one of the problems with this present MLS site software. You say you program for a 1024x768 display. That is probably not too bad, but there are still a lot of folk that are still at 800x600 so they have to do lots of horizontal scrolling to view the site's window of data (and I guarantee that many will miss anything off the right hand side because WE are much too lazy to scroll to the right to see if there is anything there!) 

I recognize the need for setting some minimum width and there is little you can really do about that. There is a need for all the real estate on screen you can get in order to display the needed data in a pleasing manner. 

But also note, the user has the capability to narrow up the window and not use the whole width of the screen. I do that regularly since I have more things on screen that I want to monitor in REALTIME and letting my browser window eat all the real estate precludes doing that. Of course the browser then has to put a horizontal scroll bar at the bottom to accommodate the site software that requires a wider window than what I have allowed. 

But even if I set my browser to handle a width that fits the MLS site (and many other sites), I still get the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom! No matter how wide I make the browser window that scroll bar is still there! 

I know the reason for this! 

The programmer (probably out of Shad's hands) has made the wrong call to the operating system when asking the width of the window the HTML is executing in. The program has asked what the overall "window width" is. This was the original call that was provided by Winders 1.0 for programs to find out how much room was made available by the user when they set the window size. The program was then supposed to arrange the content to fit inside of it. BUT... that call to the operating system does not take into account the window's border (sizing frame, which is also a user adjustable parameter, though it is now not so easy to change by the average user!) nor the vertical scroll bar that is usually along the right side (which may or may not appear depending on the vertical space required by what the program puts in the client area). The programmer was supposed to take all those things into account by subtracting them from the window width to get the client area width... but VERY FEW know to do so (and thus the horizontal scroll bar that always appears at the bottom). 

Microsoft has since made available new calls to the OS that return the client area width (which takes into account the border and any other extra width eating parts of the window (scroll bars, etc)). But few people know what those calls are (all the example code provided in the teaching text books and on-line still show the "old" way but neglect to show how to subtract the other values to get a true client area width!). 

If this site's programmer were to change the call he is making to the OS to be the one that returns the client area width instead of the window width that bottom scroll bar would disappear for any window width us users set the browser window to (at least down to some minimum he could set in his own code... I'd vote for an 800 pixel width minimum). 

It has been too long since I have written code in any derivative of "C" so I don't remember the calls... methinks it was something to do with "GetSystemMetrics" and "SystemParametersInfo". In Visual Basic (I think after version 3.0) the correct info is obtained using "Me.Width" (the window's width) and "Me.ScaleWidth" (the client area's width). 

I'd sure like this site's software developer to get wise to the "Client area width" as opposed to the "Window width".


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