# Is MEK being taken off shelves in California?



## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are a styrene modeler you probably know that MEK is a great medium for welding pieces of styrene together. Works in an instant and is forever. However, one of our fellow MLS-ers said his Home Depot in San Diego was no longer selling MEK, but rather, some reformulated substitue, which may not have the same effect on styrene. Since I bought mine in Hawaii at the local ACE, it mentioned this to him and he found some at his California ACE outlet.

So tell me, is MEK a no-no in CA? Or is Home Despot phasing out MEK, just like it has done with incandescent light bulbs?


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

MEK= Methylethylkeytone. Plastruct have the same stuff but in the UK its sold as MEK and thats the main name on the label. 
I once found what appeared to be a beer keg with a screw top. On opening it I was assailed by the overpowering smell of...Methyylethylkeytone. IF I had taken a big sniff....dread to think!! Being California. . . . . nuff said.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm surprised that you can still buy plastruct in the state to the south of Orygun. After all, you can stick it in somebody's eye, and if you eat enough of it it might hurt you. 

A friend of mine who is forced to live there once said to me - 'all those folks that the stupid folks call stupid get the folks that THEY call stupid to write the laws and ordinances here...'Do not eat, inject or otherwise ingest this 18 pound Aristocraft Dash 9 model locomotive, especially before, during or after breast-feeding your baby, as the Surgeon General has determined that doing so might lay you and your child [born or unborn] wide open to a bunch of carcinogens'. 

'WARNING! These sleeping pills MIGHT cause the onset of drowsiness'. 

Yeah, right. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Reminds me of a warning I found on a can of spackle, 
"Warning! Don't lick the lid." 

Harvey C.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, but the question remains: _ Has_ California banned Methylethylketone?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Having lived here all my life, I can say from direct experience that California had totally gone off the deep end. This once beautiful state has been completely ruined by a variety of problems, along with policies that feed those problems and make them worse instead of better.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I was in Cabellas sporting goods looking for led weights for somthing on a printing press. There on the box of a fishing lure were the words in big orange letters " HARMFULL IF SWOLLOWED. California will fine you 300 bucks of you leave the lid off a ink can. Yet right next to it is a 40 inch by 4 inch by 2 inch pool of the stuff waiting to be used for printing. Opss sorry getting off the topic.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Reading other areas on the internet, WM Barr (Kleen Strip) has quit selling it there in California, but I have not seen an outright ban. 

It is not a carcinogen, and it was taken off the EPA's HAP list a few years back, either of which would have been a negative there in Cali. 

A check of CAL-EPA's website shows nothing more either. 

Of course, the big box stores are getting very strange, just this past sunday, I went to a Lowes to buy my summer's supply of Lawn Boy 2cyl oil for my push mowers as I have done for years. I was told that all push mowers were four cycle and I was wrong that mine were two stroke, and then I was also told that Lowes has never sold Lawn Boy 2 cycle oil....


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

In the warnings department my favorite is the printing on the Q-Tips box that warns the consumer NOT to put the product in one's ears! I have cleaned my ears with Q-Tips most of my life. I just don't go into the ear as though the Q-Tip were a jackhammer. 

I know that nothing can be done about it, but it is just a shame that the same people who are too stupid to use a product correctly could not also be too stupid to know how to sue. 

Well, good luck with the MEK. 

David Meashey


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett head over to OSH give them a try, the local one by me recently had a big display of chainsaw and mower 2 cycle engine oil, and I'm in smoggy So Cal...  

The Plastruct stuff is still avalable at my LHS, for now anyways, some of the laws here make sense, but some are loony, and some are just a simple PITA. I used to use model spray paints from Testors which were the best paints ever, but between the people complaining about the VOC content ingredients the stuff got reformulated so now its complete crap they doesnt spray well, clumps, runs and generally does a completly shi**y job, top that with some complete idiots decided they'd rather spray other peoples property or worse inhale the stuff so now the paints got either banned outright, or you have to proof your not some huffing gangbanger by providing 12 forms of ID at time of purchase, I am in my late 40's and I got carded when I purchased some Kyylon paints, I asked the guy " ID??? really???? do I look like a tagger????....." He said its State Law for any spray purchase now....Oy vey.... 

Dont EVEN get me started of the mandated switch from oil based house paints and varnishes to the uber crappy water based low VOC house paints and varnishes


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

While I am not in California, but Michigan, there is a high temp coating we use on boiler that our previous supplier, a major industrial supply house, will not sell in the state. I've had to turn to a smaller company to buy it. I am starting to see some suppliers eliminate products from their shelves that they do not sell frequently enough to rotate expiration dates and maintain a fresh stock without dumping product. While MEK doesn't go bad when you consider how many dollars are tied up in stock at a big box store they may be adjusting their bottom line.


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## Russell Miller (Jan 3, 2008)

Joe,
Still stocking and selling *MEK at TAP Plastics* in both 1 gallon and 5 gallon containers. I haven't heard anything about a ban on selling the product here in Northern California. The Los Angeles basin has different VOC laws than the rest of California so they might be limiting the selling of it in Southern California.

Russ


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

Bet they allow the sale of nail polish remover in the Golden State - and that is mainly acetone...still gets through the skin into the system. 
Don't hear much about that danger from the Ban Everything Gestapo. Crazy old world.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ross on 13 May 2011 09:34 AM 
Bet they allow the sale of nail polish remover in the Golden State - and that is mainly acetone...still gets through the skin into the system. 
Don't hear much about that danger from the Ban Everything Gestapo. Crazy old world. 


Inhalation is the primary route of entry for acetone as far as health effects. Skin contact contact causes drying of the skin, but no CNS impact. Longterm skin contact from what I have seen includes de-fatting and dermatitis. 

Well, from the posts above, sounds like it is not banned, just the big-box guys getting out of it. Try a mom-pop paint stores, or do you all still have those in Cali? We still have mom-pop paint stores (and makers) here in TN.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Russell Miller on 13 May 2011 09:26 AM 
Joe,
Still stocking and selling *MEK at TAP Plastics* in both 1 gallon and 5 gallon containers. I haven't heard anything about a ban on selling the product here in Northern California. The Los Angeles basin has different VOC laws than the rest of California so they might be limiting the selling of it in Southern California.

Russ 


Hmm, that VERY WELL could be the case, but then it has been years since I have done anything with air permitting....

http://www.bfksolutions.com/Newslet...20HAP.html


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Acetone can help transport things through your skin... I learned of this when I had a friend using it in the model airplane hobby to clean paint with a paper towel and acetone... the acetone helped get some of it paint into his skin... 

Use gloves... 

Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm.......I hadn't thought of that! Good advice. Thanks!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did some more research, since it was stated that acetone did not hurt you... yes, it ALONE won't, it will dry out your skin. 

Unfortunately, the big danger that most people do not realize from using most solvents is transporting toxic stuff into your skin. 

My friend had yellow paint IN his skin for a while, the doctor was concerned. 

Apparently this can happen with the "water based" and the "hydrocarbon based" groups of solvents. 

I used to use lacquer thinner, and mek and acetone bare handed, but no more... Nitrile gloves are the recommended thing. 

Greg


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow! I had no idea this was such a volatile (ha, ha!) issue. I was mostly curious, since I prefer MEK to say, Plastruct's stuff (with the orange label) because MEK works fast and I am very impatient. And yet, Bob Baxter, who we all agree, is one fine modeler, uses the Plastruct stuff with great success. As for g'mint regulations, first let me say that I use all of the "bad" stuff like acetone without gloves, when I clean my airbrush. I know I need gloves, but have yet to buy the kind Greg? recommends--nitrile--which presumably won't melt. I have, however, taken to using a respirator type mask (a "pig mask," I call it) when I spray. That said, a well-known airbrush weathering artist who lives nearby and sprays in his garage told me that he doesn't worry about fumes and just opens the garage door. As for the gov-mint--I grew up in the Buffalo-Niagara Falls area in the good old days when you drove down Buffalo Avenue in the Falls or down Route 5 through South Buffalo and Lackawana, and marvelled at the color and smell of stuff coming out of the various stacks. My immigrant grandfather who worked as a carpenter at National Aniline, would come home with his long-johns stained by the color of the day--purple, I recall. He also told me that was the coloring they put into soft drinks and that I would be better off drinking beer, which I soon did. Now I am a car guy and make my living in that field, but when you think of how crude engines, fuel metering systems, ignitions, etc, were in those days, you can't help but wonder where we'd be today if the feds hadn't prodded the auto industry into getting off their duff and building something better. And please don't tell me that you old Camaro or Vette or Mustang, can run circles around its modern equivalent. Thats' total...you-know-what! Final test: if you think those old cars don't pollute, come buy my house and I'll fire up my twin 3-barrel Weber carbureted '67 Porsche 911, let 'er idle and close the garage door--with you inside. Then you'll see what emmision controls, etc, are all about. 

Jeez, how did I get off on that rant?!


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

FWIW, I went by Dixieline lumber today, they sell retail but mostly cater to contractors. They had plenty of MEK and the other solvents that Home Despot no longer stocks. 

The hardware stores now even have to put up "warning" signs informing people that "wood dust is known to the State of California to cause cancer and/or birth defects". You can't get the good, original version of Liquid Nails in the People's Republic of Kalifornia anymore, and even plywood (and plywood products -- furniture, etc) is heavily regulated. 

The inmates are running the asylum!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup Ray.....SMALL amounts of Formaldehyde. We still run into it in a lot of glues and finishes, but not to the level we used to @ work. 

Greg, post please the info you found on acetone and being a catalyst for absorption of other solvents. Having been in a field that deals with toxicology for over 15 years now, this is a new one by me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I made no claim that acetone was a catalyst for absorption of other solvents. Please re-read my post. 

Statement: Solvents CAN be a vehicle to carry toxins through cell walls, i.e. through your skin. 

If you have been in a field that "deals with" toxicology for 15 years, and you do not know the above sentence is true, I submit that "deals with" is not "near enough" to this information, 15 years or not. 

5 minutes with Google will verify my statement. With all due respect, do it yourself so you won't have to argue with me or doubt the information, sounds like you want to spar with me, I'm not taking the bait. 

Or you can take something toxic, mix it with acetone and apply it to your skin, if you feel brave (actually please don't do that, I don't want to have to prove I'm right at the expense of your health) 

Do you also remember the problem with people using DMSO? Look that one up too... another solvent that people applied topically, and often it transported junk into the body. 

Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I did mis-read your post tho (what you get for posting mid "Honey Do"), I thought you had said acetone could be absorbed by the skin, did not take it as "solvents can", sorry. That is why I asked the Acetone question. An apology to you. 

Yes, DMSO has been listed by a few groups/agencies as a chemical which is (the Europeans claim "may") absorbed by the skin, but I have not seen acetone in the same boat in anything from NIOSH, OSHA, ACGIH, etc, so again that is why I asked what I did. Granted, DMSO and some others keytones can (Methanol for example) a long with a slew of other solvents as you pointed out. 

As for us in the hobby relm? Do play it safe. I have a friend that painted classic automobiles as a hobby in his basement for years and is now paying the price....


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

A lesson learned. 
Many years ago I was about to order a batch of paints. I came across a warning from a US modeller (letter in MR) who used that particular paint in a professional model loco spraying business he operated. He warned of TOLUENE in the paint. He contracted leukemia said his doctors, thro using it. Apparently it has a big effect on the blood corps'.. He subsequently died. I believe the paint manufacturer quit using Toluene in the paint anyway.

I noticed that some products in the UK used this in various modelling products for some years afterwards and sold to kids for gluing together their plastic model plane kits. 
I now read all labels. 
But then again..one could choke over chewing gum! 
Think it all boils down to common sense.
Refer to WIKIPEDIA re Methy ethyl keytone and another element of it with various authorities comments about any or no dangers..


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hoo boy, YES acetone can be absorbed by the skin, in fact your body MAKES acetone, and it is a common organic solvent. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone 

Right in the first paragraph. 

My point is that it's not dangerous in of itself.... it's potentially dangerous because certain solvents (such as acetone) can carry OTHER STUFF (including toxic material) into your body through your skin. 

So while Acetone is "safe" by itself, it can easily be the transport of dangerous and toxic chemicals into your body. 

OK, now that has to be clear. I'm REALLY trying to make sure there is no misunderstanding. 

Greg


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

West Marine sells MEK here in California. 

A 2 cycle chain saw or lawn mower engine, running for one hour, produces as much pollution as a car driven from Los Angeles to New York City.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 May 2011 08:16 AM 
Hoo boy, YES acetone can be absorbed by the skin, in fact your body MAKES acetone, and it is a common organic solvent. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone 

Right in the first paragraph. 

My point is that it's not dangerous in of itself.... it's potentially dangerous because certain solvents (such as acetone) can carry OTHER STUFF (including toxic material) into your body through your skin. 

So while Acetone is "safe" by itself, it can easily be the transport of dangerous and toxic chemicals into your body. 

OK, now that has to be clear. I'm REALLY trying to make sure there is no misunderstanding. 

Greg 



Correct Greg, the body makes its own ketones when it breaks down fat. 

Here is some further reading, compare the NIOSH pocket guide page for Methanol (note Exposure Routes and exposure limit recommended exposure limit (REL) sections)

*http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0397.html* (skin absorption and designation given with the REL)

...and acetone...

*http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0004.html* (skin contact, not absorption hazard and no skin designation given with the REL)

_*EDIT to fix links....*_ 

Now, and I think this is where you are going, if acetone is in fact blended (just a mixture, no reaction) with methanol or other chemical that can be absorbed, (and with paints, one has pigments like the yellow example you gave) then some asborption can occurr. 

The other thing to think about with paints are the pigments themselves (what makes yellow paint in your example yellow). There are all kinds of chemicals and elements used for pigments including lead, cobalt, cadmium and chromium. There are misconceptions that these are no longer used in ALL paints with the ban of lead in house paints in the late 1970s. This did not extend to a lot of other industrial and even some consumer paints.

As you point out, the best practice is to use the proper glove (not all gloves are the same, and laytex exam gloves are uselss to a lot of organic solvents), use it out doors, and use it sparingly.

Then there is my story of the lab chemist who refused to shake my hand one day during an audit until she "washed the methylene chloride off her hands"....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, my personal example, from 1969 was my friend with Acetone and yellow paint for a model plane. 

My main point is that solvents can (meaning possibly) be a vehicle to introduce toxins (or other junk) into your body, at least as far as the cell walls of the dermis. 

The dermis has a great blood supply, so these things can also get into your bloodstream readily. Obviously the new "patch" medications are clear proof of this. 

Normally organic solvents do more to "defat" the skin, and dry it out, but gloves are a good idea. 

Don't know much about methylene chloride, seems that it was a component in a automotive paint stripper I used, but this is from memory only. 

Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 May 2011 12:06 PM 
Yep, my personal example, from 1969 was my friend with Acetone and yellow paint for a model plane. 

Normally organic solvents do more to "defat" the skin, and dry it out, but gloves are a good idea.

Don't know much about methylene chloride, seems that it was a component in a automotive paint stripper I used, but this is from memory only. 

Greg 
Exactly on the "defating" with solvents. One or two times, no problems. Prolonged exposure = dermatitis. 

MC (Methylene Chloride, Dichoromethane) is an excellent paint stripper. It is also an excellent styrene glue (the model glue Tenax7R is almost pure MC). The paint strippers combine it with a wax to slow evaporation, where Tenax will dry out quickly. 

Health...chemical skin burns and slight absorption....along with doing a number to your central nervous system (CNS for short). It elevates your carboxyhemoglobin level in the bloodstream, just the same as carbon monoxide....light headed then sleepy. I know of one death from someone trying to get high from the stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichloromethane

A common non-chemist opps is to confuse MC with MEK. Two different birds. Both have hobby uses too.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting on the Tenax... I never read the ingredients (if they are even shown), but I could tell it was a somewhat different animal. 

I remember getting that paint stripper on my skin, that hurt, and hurt after it was washed off, it was clear to me then that it penetrated cell walls just fine. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Just another bureaucrat state trying to control your life. As I say who died and made you god. You should be old enought to be able to figure out what is right and wrong, if not then you deserve to be controlled. Haven for bid everything that is made says may be hazardous or cause cancer in Cal. Ya right. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 May 2011 03:19 PM 
Interesting on the Tenax... I never read the ingredients (if they are even shown), but I could tell it was a somewhat different animal. 

I remember getting that paint stripper on my skin, that hurt, and hurt after it was washed off, it was clear to me then that it penetrated cell walls just fine. 

Greg 
Truth be told Greg, I don't think it was listed on the bottle, but if one digs for the MSDS, volia, right there in the last section:

http://www.emedco.info/rtk/common/wcd00025/wcd02597.htm

There are some other industrial plastic solvents that contain it as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow: "Specific Hazard and Precaution DAMAGE TO LIVER, KIDNEYS, LUNGS, BLOOD, CNS. MAY BE FATAL. MAY CAUSE TEMPORARY CORNEAL DAMAGE " 

Safety glasses besides the gloves... 

Greg


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