# ASTER STEAM ENGINES



## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

HELLO TO ALL: Have a new set of questions. I was recently looking at two used engines. I have no knowledge of these and would like to hear from anyone with comments, suggestions, videos, photos and experience with:
Aster steam engines. Specifically the Two Truck Climax and the C&S Mogul 2-6-0.
Thanks,

Kevin R.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

They never made a two truck climax only a three truck.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

And here is the three truck...


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/aclimax.htm

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/ac&smogul.htm

the Southern Steam Trains site has a short writeup on all previous Aster models.
both these locomotives are narrow gauge scaled (1:22.5/23)

i'm more of a mainline steam person myself, but the geared locomotive types certainly are fun to watch.
good luck...gary


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

and the C&S Mogul 2-6-0 
Kevin, 
If you poke around, I think you'll find a few threads about the mogul. My memory tells me it was an early Aster loco and is quite finickey until you sort it out. Something to do with the alcohol feed, I think?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 18 Aug 2012 07:30 AM 
and the C&S Mogul 2-6-0 
Kevin, 
If you poke around, I think you'll find a few threads about the mogul. My memory tells me it was an early Aster loco and is quite finickey until you sort it out. Something to do with the alcohol feed, I think? 
Pete,
Yes I can see that that would be a problem - as the C&S Mogul is GAS fired!!!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 18 Aug 2012 09:04 AM 

Pete,
Yes I can see that that would be a problem - as the C&S Mogul is GAS fired!!!

David,

But so is the Climax, and it runs like a top...


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I can see that that would be a problem - as the C&S Mogul is GAS fired!!! 

OK, OK, so I'm old and I never had one. 
But if you do a site-specific google search "site:mylargescale.com aster C&S mogul" you will find the two threads I recalled from 2009 - about the problems with the GAS feed.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Pete, I have two C&S Moguls one factory made, one which i put together from the kit. Both run perfectly, and there are no problems with gas system. But it should be used correctly! That is, the valve on the locomotive should be fully open, while the valve on the gas tank in the tender should be used for regulating the flow of gas (which then goes to the preheating tank in the cab). Best, Zubi PS A few years ago I recorded this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYmqDhz-AFY&list=UUkcnyGoZXXf_jZmaZv2j-1A


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 18 Aug 2012 10:29 AM 
Pete, I have two C&S Moguls one factory made, one which i put together from the kit. Both run perfectly, and there are no problems with gas system. But it should be used correctly! That is, the valve on the locomotive should be fully open, while the valve on the gas tank in the tender should be used for regulating the flow of gas (which then goes to the preheating tank in the cab). Best, Zubi PS A few years ago I recorded this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYmqDhz-AFY&list=UUkcnyGoZXXf_jZmaZv2j-1A -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









Hello Zubi. Does Aster tell folks in the instruction book this information or do you have to go through the frustration to figure it out yourself ? Because, I too remember back in the day when many owners of these engines had much frustration over the gas system. It is a shame if there is a correct way to do it, but Aster did not tell purchasers this. I do not own one of these engines and stayed away from them because of "What I heard about them". Is this lighting info explained in the manual ?


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

Thank you. This helps quite a bit. But I was told by some that the Aster engines were primo. Yet it seams even they have problems. So why spend big money and not get 100% value and reliability? Or are the two I am asking about at the bottom of their line. Would I be better suited, value wise, to look at Accucraft models or get re-interested in the Roundhouse Sandy River? 
Both engines had asking prices of $2500. The Climax was used the least. 
Kevin


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steve, I have no idea what is written in the manual. It is simply common sense, even if not written in the manual. Someone decided to give this engine a bad reputation at the very beginning and it stuck with it, unfortunately. The engine is just fine. Best, Zubi


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Having built and owned a C&S mogul some years ago, I thought it was an excellent engine. The butane firing is unique to this model and works very well. For starters, the fuel tank holds plenty of butane and has a glass guage to monitor fuel level. Second, no water bath is needed to maintain fuel pressure. The pre-heater in the cab does a great job. I ran the supply tank full open and regulated with the pre-heater. Worked just fine. The only real issue was the throttle valve. Extremely sensitive. But that is a simple fix. Fine tapering of the needle cures it. Mr. Kevin O'conner used to makes these throttle valves. The loco is also easy to add lighting and r/c. Also an excellent candidate for a radiant burner. I like the look of it too. Can be used for logging and or passenger.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 18 Aug 2012 09:43 PM
Steve, I have no idea what is written in the manual. It is simply common sense, even if not written in the manual. Someone decided to give this engine a bad reputation at the very beginning and it stuck with it, unfortunately. The engine is just fine. Best, Zubi --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------












Hello Zubi. You have to remember, one mans "Common Sense" can be another mans "Stupid". I,............. unfortunately.............fall into that second category way too often.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By GUNCAPTAIN2463 on 18 Aug 2012 08:36 PM 
Thank you. This helps quite a bit. But I was told by some that the Aster engines were primo. Yet it seams even they have problems. So why spend big money and not get 100% value and reliability? Or are the two I am asking about at the bottom of their line. Would I be better suited, value wise, to look at Accucraft models or get re-interested in the Roundhouse Sandy River? 
Both engines had asking prices of $2500. The Climax was used the least. 
Kevin 
Aster started making #1 gauge live steam in 1975. the Climax loco was brought out in 1982 (their 18th model) and the Mogul was made in 1991 (~model #40). in 2012, the Challenger with be close to Aster's 90th design. after almost 4 decades, although small tweaks in their designs still occur, most long time owners will probably agree that the recent models certainly outperform some of their first offerings.

personally, although i don't own one (yet), i'm glad companies like Accucraft exist. competition breeds excellence and from what i read, both companies are constantly improving their models. it might seem minor to some, but with the Big Boy announcement, i notice that Accucraft has fixed the 'slide valve imitating piston valve' concern which will hopefully be carried on the future models. alternately, i'm sure Aster is aware of the competition and will not rest on their laurels, either.

another thing to keep in mind; Aster is excellent but nobody is perfect. both kits i've built so far have had errors in the instructions (usually pre-corrected in an errata sheet, or quickly found by fellow kit builders), but if you've ever seen one of their kits, having a handful of errors when you are dealing with literally 1000+ parts and pages of instructions (an average kit will take you at least 40 hours to build), is understandable. one thing that constantly amazes me about their kits is the accuracy of the parts. 99.99% of the parts are formed or machined to incredible tolerance and fit perfectly with only the need to (even rarely) clean up a tapped hole.

good luck with whatever you decide.
cheers...gary


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GUNCAPTAIN2463 on 18 Aug 2012 08:36 PM 
Thank you. This helps quite a bit. But I was told by some that the Aster engines were primo. Yet it seams even they have problems. So why spend big money and not get 100% value and reliability? Or are the two I am asking about at the bottom of their line. Would I be better suited, value wise, to look at Accucraft models or get re-interested in the Roundhouse Sandy River? 
Both engines had asking prices of $2500. The Climax was used the least. 
Kevin 
Kevin,

Obviously no manufacturer is perfect, but Aster owners tend to be a fanatically positive lot. Aster (new) engines cost about twice what an Accucraft costs - partly that is Japanese costs versus Chinese, but clearly quality control enters in to the picture.

As pointed out, these two are older designs and have one or two quirks - but once you get the hang of running them, you will (it seems) be another fanatically happy owner! Remember, they might have been sold for $2000 back when new, but the equivalent will cost you $5000 now.

Your price point is a really tough one - an recent Accucraft model will be almost problem-free (almost) and there is nothing wrong with the Roundhouse Sandy River.

Look at it the other way - you are going to be very happy with any of these choices. Which one appeals to you emotionally?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 19 Aug 2012 09:25 AM 

with the Big Boy announcement, i notice that Accucraft has fixed the 'slide valve imitating piston valve' concern which will hopefully be carried on the future models. 

good luck with whatever you decide.
cheers...gary

You know Gary, I still don't understand why this bothers people so much.
I have books and articles that explain the working of valve gears, but when it comes to looking at our models, I can never remember where the radius rod is supposed to be in relation to the expansion link and lifting arm, or where the return crank is meant to be.
It just is not that important to me.
What is important is reality of running a model locomotive of live steam. 
Some models have inside slip eccentric valve gear with dummy outside gear.
Does that make it any less of a live steam model?
Anyway, just needed to get that off my chest.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 19 Aug 2012 10:25 AM 
Posted By aopagary on 19 Aug 2012 09:25 AM 

with the Big Boy announcement, i notice that Accucraft has fixed the 'slide valve imitating piston valve' concern which will hopefully be carried on the future models. 

good luck with whatever you decide.
cheers...gary

You know Gary, I still don't understand why this bothers people so much.
I have books and articles that explain the working of valve gears, but when it comes to looking at our models, I can never remember where the radius rod is supposed to be in relation to the expansion link and lifting arm, or where the return crank is meant to be.
It just is not that important to me....
David Leech, Delta, Canada

my learning curve with live steam in general has taken quite an upswing in recent years mostly due to the change in available time after retirement along with the means to explore this hobby. frankly my mentioning it has nothing to do with an annoying problem that has been bothering me for decades as i wasn't ever aware it was a concern of anyone until just recently. but to know a manufacturer will take a simple step to add one more feature to the realistic operation (i would never expect operational cross compound air pumps or feed water heaters in this scale), is fairly impressive and indicates to me that they must have the larger issues under control to tweak a minor point as this.

i run both a small Mamod steam locomotive around a 4 x 8 foot oval or one of my Aster locomotives on rollers (no 10' radius circle of track handy at this place) for a kids museum summer program and frankly i think they get little more excited seeing the Mamod because it's actually moving around a track, though the Aster pop valves opening up for the first time after firing the boiler is also a fairly good attention getter. more of the parents seem to like the Aster locomotives for the detail and size (most probably have never seen anything larger than O scale). personally i like to demo either; they both get most of my points across.

i'm pretty sure nobody in this crowd has ever asked about the valve gear and i don't believe i've ever gone out of my way to point it out.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary
"i'm pretty sure nobody in this crowd has ever asked about the valve gear and i don't believe i've ever gone out of my way to point it out."

When someone asks me why the difference between one manufacturer vs. the cost of another manufacturer model there are times that indicating the difference in valve gear functional ability will be a point to make to those queries.

Will it make a determination as to involvement in the hobby or choice by a potential hobbyist...well, sometimes it will as I know of a T1 that was not purchased based on the valve gear setup.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have read many times, people stating that if they were going to spend that much money on an Aster locomotive they'd expect it to be problem free... My neighbor said the same thing about his Cadillac Escalade after the safety recall and 3 warranty services for things that were poorly designed, poorly manufactured and poorly installed.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 19 Aug 2012 04:47 PM 
I have read many times, people stating that if they were going to spend that much money on an Aster locomotive they'd expect it to be problem free... My neighbor said the same thing about his Cadillac Escalade after the safety recall and 3 warranty services for things that were poorly designed, poorly manufactured and poorly installed. 
i'd say these days with a car you have a really good shot. aside from a faulty limit switch on my roof (and believe me, nobody gives a soft top a more rigorous workout than i do), my basic transportation has bee practically perfect over its first 8 years, but buying or building any steam locomotive with the expectation of a problem free lifetime is ludicrous. misinformation takes on many forms.


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

That takes us to the old saying; "If you want it done right, then do it yourself". So what is right or perfect to some may not be to others. Everyone has thier own individual outlook on what is the "right" way things should be done. Potato-potahto.


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

It seams to me that although Aster makes good stuff. It has its own problems. From what I see here these two engines are some of their earlier models and may have some flaws. Thus at the price that these are offered, I might be better suited to stick with and new Accucraft similar model or the Roundhouse Sandy River. I have Accucrafts Caradoc and 2-4-4 Forney and a Roundhouse Russell now and have been very happy with their performance to date. To get one of the "better" Aster models is out of my league, financially. 
Thanks to all who have participated in this discussion. 
Kevin R.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i was thinking about what would motive me to buy a older issue by Aster, and the only argument i can come up with would be if that model was something i truly wanted to have. if i were a logging locomotive fan and saw an old Aster Climax come up for sale, i would have to consider the fact that Aster will likely not make another Climax locomotive in my lifetime. would i rather have an older model or nothing at all?

going with a new model also has the benefit of better availability of repair/ replacement parts.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

What exactly is the problem with the Climax and C&S Mogul? I owned the Climax for about 7 years. I installed RC and it was a flawless runner. Mine was a factory build model. I only sold it to fund the purchase of a used Catatonk Climax that I ran for the first time this weekend. The new owner actually did what I wanted to do for a long time which is convert to a 2 truck Climax. Hopefully I will see that on Labor day weekend. As to the C&S Mogul I also own one, it was a kit built loco by a well known person. he has no ptoubles using the orignal gas system thouigh in the colder weather that is when it is very hard to light if it still has the liquid feed. I had changed the fuel feed to gas from liquid and have no issues running or burner problems. Its also one of that loudest stack talk I have ever heard from a Gauge 1 loco.


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

FINAL QUESTIONS: Is this Aster Climax worth the asking price of $2700?? It was supposedly fired up once and not run on track, then placed in a display case (glass covered) in someones den or office. 
Thanks again guys, 
Kevin R.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I sold two in the last 6 years and both went for $3,500, one with radio control and the other without. I have one and I would not sell it for $3500.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

A bit of caution, most secondhand engines have been run "just a few times", "only a gallon of water", "only once", and "only have a minor problem". Then when you get it it is not always the case. As always buyer beware. If the seller is reputable then that makes it easier. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I recently sold mine for 2400, thet was set up for RC though he did not use it. It also was priced to sell and only listed through friends. It is in good hands and I still get to see it run at steamups. As to the condition, mine was new never run in the factory box when I bought it, every fitting leaked from age. Most jst needed tightening as its juist packing for a seal though a few I repacked. The 2700 price is about right, they do not come up often. Keep in mind ths climax is geared a little fast and is build for speed, it takes a lot of work to get them to run slower. Mostly either RC for better throttle control as its very sensitive or to make/use a secondary throttle somehow. I used RC and got very good results. You need no more than 1/4 turn of the throttle, The axle pump works best when its closed then just opened a 1/8 turn. Maintains the boiler pretty wekk as it consumes a bunch of water.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm very late to the topic, it's getting rangy, and I'll be brief. I own and operate all three Aster products in this discussion: the alcohol fired JNR Mogul with a single cylinder [the other is the steam oil tank] and a three axle tender, the butane gas fired C&S Mogul, and the unlettered Climax. The following is not my opinion, but three facts. All three of these Aster made locomotives are first class products produced at very fair prices [then, as is now, if one has ever tried to build a 45mm locomotive from scratch] by craftsman who require more than fish heads and gruel to satisfy their family's needs. In fact I own two Climaxes. One is in my collection and the other is in my service. 
Aster is unique in this market as their business model is based on providing first quality kits to their customers. The customer then builds, and understands, the kit-to-model experience, and is then able to groom in his model. When something gets out of kilter, the self constructor is far ahead of the game in troubleshooting the varmint and quickly returning to "revenue" service. 
I have no opinion of the "fair" pricing of these models, but I know what they will bring in the current market as based on the past two years of successful e-bay.com auctions. The JNR single cylinder Moguls have ranged from US$450 to US$600 or so based on physical condition and poor photography. The later two cylinder, four axle tender, "Americanized" Mogul will go for around the US$1.1K price point. The C&S Mogul, which back in the late nineties went for US$3,200 per kit, US$3,500 factory built, now sells for US$1,000 less due to competition from the Accucraft family of Moguls. The last Climax sale was for nearly US$3K for a poorly pixelated, or/and poorly cared for steamer. 
I don't have an opinion about the alleged poor performance of some of our tiny steamers, but I do know that most of the trackside troubles are directly attributable to "operator error". Doubt me? Just sidle up to one of the retailers of the major locomotive brands and ask to hear their retail "war stories" with regard to after market support. 
It is true that I did re-machine [profile] both steam throttle valves and gas valves for the C&S Mogul back in the olden days, and that this was key to having a finely operating piece of model machinery. I also wrote about this work in a piece for "Steam in the Garden" [SitG] magazine in the late nineties when these locomotives were a current attraction. It was titled "Taming a Wild Aster". Maybe it's time for a reprise? With a radiant poker burner since it's the same burner that's in the Frank S.?


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

We could all stand a reprise. Re-machine? Do you just make the angle on the point somewhat more acute? What angle?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 21 Aug 2012 06:54 AM 
We could all stand a reprise. Re-machine? Do you just make the angle on the point somewhat more acute? What angle? 

Dave - I came across the article when I first got the climax, if you look art the taper of the needle, its about a 45 deg cut. pretty bad for fine adjustment but ok for open/close. The needle is about a 7" length of 3-4mm Stainless. A good 60degwould be much better though I was afraid of the needle being too short after machining. I never ended up doing mine as the RC did the trick. Have you seen mine run at Jims? I also changed the piston packing from the graphite yarn to some PTFE tape. Much smoother and bropped the min PSI to run. Mostly why mine ran pretty decent slo speeds. The greaing stil could use a taller gear but that was another project that neved came to. I was going to replace with stock gears with a Boston 4/1 ratio and then chain drive the axles together as you cant get sprial bevel gears the ratio/size needed. 
As to the article, I think we would all like to see Kevin start to do some more articles for SITG.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

J, I have seen yours run. I'm thinking there is some room for improvement in mine. It has an odd habit of accelerating when the safety lifts! Not leading up to the lift, only when it is actually venting.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dave, that is not odd - it is pure physics. Should happen with all pop safety valves, if they rapidly open. Steam 'explosion'. Best, Zubi


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, I guess I can accept that explanation, as the pressure is released the water boils more rapidly. Volume / pressure thing, sort of like the reason we don't open a radiator cap on a car when the engine is hot. Still, this is the only engine I have that displays this behavior.


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