# EE-1 (the nightmare begins)



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Given the type of locomotives that I normally build the question has arisen -what would terrify me to build? The answer is this loco... I fell in love with this loco as a 10 year old from a postage stamp in my collection. 

As people now know I am experimenting, (quite successfully I think), with Gauge 3 and this will be the third loco for this that I have built. It was designed by Sir Vincent Raven of the N.E.R. and is a typical looking mid wars period electric loco running on the UK std (of the time) 1500 Volts DC. 

There however the "normality" of the loco ends... 

It is a 2-C0-2 design and uses Steam Era design technique to operate. The loco has 6 feet 6 inch driving wheels with what is a perfectly logical high speed spoke design -which is unique to this loco. The loco used a Quill drive and has 6 radial spokes, which then split into 3 and hit the wheel rim at 18 equidistant points, the split giving a central spoke with 2 forks at 45 degree angles. The reason is to produce a non resonant wheel at high revs -something an express loco would do. 

After being suitably robbed by friends at the "plans exchange" I have copies of the original drawings and they are scary. What is beneath that slab sided casing is simply wild. I expected the electric steam boiler for carriage heating, the resistors in their air cooled top hat were well known. But what came as a complete surprise was the switching. I expected air blast switches or sealed bath type. What they used were liquid mercury and oil insulator with plunge carbon contacts. Needless to say I will *not* be using this system!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Ralph, 


Shame! for the lack of such a switching system being consigned to the bin! - Not suprised though. The electric bits were designed or fitted by Metro-vickers - who were building big transformers I would think, thus they same style of switch gear (for cheapness?), basically that was all they had without some R&D to produce a new system. 

I suspect those main driving weheels (to use a steam analogy) also has some springs(?), at 45 degrees from the joins on the triple set that face towrds the wheel rim from the photo, the set facing upwards, and looking rather like a garland if a coplete wheel could be seen. 

Best of luck with the loco, it is basically for model purpose (no innards!) and excepting the wheels a fairly simple design. 

The quill drives (with 2 motors per axle) was of course used on the GG1, I wonder if they knew about EE-1 thoughthere is a long time between building dates? 

Here is a link to a quill drive setup, which also shopws the springs on the driving wheels 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MILW_Quill_half_with_motors.jpg 

I am sure you have a photo, or do you want the one in the NERA loco book?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a few photos of it -but any more sources would be appreciated!!! I have a few of it as a static exhibit in the Darlington Paint Store -but none of it in actual motion. My saddest one of it is from the NER Record Volume 3 -it is sat with an EF-1 awaiting the final trip to Rotherham scrap yard. The wheels I am going to have to "farm out" to Polly Model Engineering in Long Eaton. They are my local model engineering fabricators as I don't have a lathe -or friends with a lathe of the required wattage to turn 95mm driving wheels. Building the actual Qull drive will present no real problems for "Kitchen Sink Engineering" -but compressing and fitting the springs might not be done without quite a few "words"... 

The Quill drive dates from Swiss designs (German trans of "Feather") of the early 20th Century -so I suppose that it was known to the Penn RR as a std design as well(?) 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Um. I think I'll just watch


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well as I have always said "the English do business at the Pub".... Yesterday evening at the Beer Festival five people sat down with half pints of various brews and looked over my drawings for the EE-1, and by the end of the second set from the band on stage -we had worked out a means of building the wheel. So far 4 polite enquiies to local model engineers had resulted in 3 polite -but *definate* refusals and 1 "You must be mad!" 

I cannot post pictures of my new build due to something having blown up at the Virgin Webserver end... 

http://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.shtml 

The new method of making the wheels will only require some turning of the final flanges but entails me producing a jig to make the spokes from. These are round lengths bar with the "fork" legs welded at 45 degrees to them. The fork legs will have an M3 tap hole to contain the Quill Drive spring cups -thus giving the "garland" of 12 springs. The completed tridents will then be welded to the central boss, and then the rim and flange array, (simply a 8mm slice of 10mm wall tube), silver soldered to it. This will give a more correct wheel and require very little lathe work. 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Utterly amazed.


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## rangerjoel (Jan 4, 2008)

HI Ralph, 
You certainly have chosen quite a challenge with those spoke wheels and I’m looking forward to seeing you overcome that obstacle. My guess is that once those are complete, the rest of your build will go very quickly. I’ll be following your thread closely. 
Joel


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

What a beastie!! Perhaps it they hadn't assigned 13 as the road number . . . . . ..


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## dana (Jan 7, 2008)

ralph dont know if this helps ya 
http://www.freewebs.com/nrlym/electriclocomotivesnrm.htm 

Electric Locomotive Sir Lislie Wilson 
Builder: Swiss Locomotive Works. Electrical equipment by Metropolitan Vickers, UK Class: Initially EF/1, later WCG/1 Year Built: 1928 Service: GIPR (Great Indian Peninsula Railway), later CR (Central Railway) Wheel Arrangement: C-C Numbering: Initially EF/1 4502, later WCG/1 20027 Named: SIR LESLIE WILSON Voltage: 1,500 V dc Rail Gauge: bg (5' 6")


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Dana, 

The WCG1 is on the "To Build List" -but it is not this loco. Sir Leslie Wilson is plinthed and I have some friends who are going back home to India for a holiday who will take some photos of it for me. I don't expect to start work on that particular loco for at least 6 months!!! Building a "krokodil" type loco will definately entail "Kitchen Sink Engineering" buying a Lathe and a Milling machine (and probably a rotary table for the Mill, (ouch my wallet hurts....) 

Thank you in advance for the information!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

What follows is probably going to reduce "The Professional Engineers" to a laughing heap on the floor -but as a poor newbie to metal working -I cannot see any other way to do it... 

At the moment I have a small 2 1/4 inch lathe and a small 6mm milling machine on order. Allied to this, I have ordered a 75mm rotating table and compound table for the mill, a face plate and 10mm drill chuck for the lathe. Both of these are rather small for model engineering work at 150Watts each -but they will be my first, (and probably only), mill and lathe(!) 

The Plan 

1: Construct the jig to make the trident out of 3mm plate and 4mm bolts. Tridents are made from 35mm lengths of 5mm sq plus 25 mm lengths cut with a 45 degree angle. Start of trident is 15mm from the end. Weld tridents. 

2: Construct the jig to make the wheel out of 3mm plate (120mmx120mm) and 4mm bolts -use the pre-bored 3mm holes in the tridents to hold the spokes to the plate. Weld spokes to 20mm AF hex bar at centre 

3: Construct a circular plywood sandwich with the spokes in the middle and bolt this to the rotary table. The plywood is used to damp down the vibration. Mill off the excess to produce a 93mm diameter . 

4: Make the wheel rim. Find the centre of a 100mm plate of 8mm steel. Place the plate on the rotary table. Mill the excess off to leave a disc of steel 99mm in diameter. Next mill a section out of the rim 2.3mm wide by 6.4mm deep -thus giving me my flange. Decrease the radius of the cutter to produce a 4mm thick ring. Mill out the ring. 

5: Place the spoke assembly in the freezer and heat the rim on the Wok Burner. Place the heated rim over the frozen spoke assembly and (hopefully) the spokes have contracted and the rim expanded and the gap is more than 0.3mm -thus I have a fit!!! 

6: Weld rim to spoke assembly. 

7: "True" and centre completed wheel on face plate of lathe. 

(I will let you know how I get on).... 

regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Then, you take the warped, out-of-round mess down to the pub and get some suggestions. The second try will turn out great.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

Ralph, your still working on this thing????  I mean I noticed the building log stopped....Dang man/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 
Toad


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

William, 

I have finished the EF-1 and the NYC "S" motor. I am busy making track at the moment -I need one more curve to complete my 90 degree turn. In the meantime I am practicing my skills on a few trial runs using 8mm MDF sheet and scrap nylon instead of steel. I have build a few "tridents" from 5mm spruce and I have nearly completed my first test wheel. I think that I will have to spend some time "making the tools to make the tools". I know "roughly" what I want for my cutters and lathe tools. The jig to build the infamous "snowflake wheel" is proving a problem. Most 75mm rotary tables are 40 turns per rotation -this make dividing by 18 a little problematic!!! 

It is quite possible that one of the first things that I build for my rotary table will be a set of dividing discs for the crank... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well after several evening of "flat thumb" I have returned to the problems inherent with building this loco. Having worked out how to build the wretched "snowflake" wheel I was left with the problem -how did I get power to it???? I had heard of Muffett gears from a forum and I downloaded their catalogue, and poured over it. I initially started with the 1 MOD gears (I am a lazy mathematician) and could not find one that worked with the shafts and ratios that I liked. I eventually found what I was looking for in the 0.7 MOD gears... There was the "Bull" gear I needed and a length of 22mm bore copper water pipe would make the tube axle for the quill drive. However, I stilll had to "climb over the edge" and connect it to a motor. The smallest 0.7 MOD gear I could find had a 4 mm shaft -I could connect this to the drive shaft from the motor. None of the motors I had, or could easily source would fit -most of them have (of course) 2, 3 or 3.2mm shafts. 

What I wanted was a motor that was no more than; 50mm long, 40mm wide, a 4mm shaft, a torque rating of at least 200 grammes per cm, and would work between 6Volts to 12Volts. 

After two days -I found it. 

Minimum order is of course 10 -what I do with the rest I will find out later.... 

regards 

ralph


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, we're all dying for some pictures.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I would *love* to give you some pictures.... 

Unfortunately Virgin Media has locked all the personal webspaces -it is only NOW after 5 weeks that they have told us so(!) I am looking into purchasing my own domain and webspace from an independant source. 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I went and did so! 

The new home of the Cabbage Patch Railway is: www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk (suprise!!!!) 










This is the rough drawing and the test trial of the spokes. 










This shows the bull gear and the drive motor (don't ask where I sourced them from.....) 










Sorry about the quality of the picture -but it was nearly 11pm.... 










regards 

ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like your new site hasn't dribbled through the DNS system yet. I can't wait!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well "have DNS will URL" seems to have happened!!! I have been building jigs for my wheels. 

This is the one for making the tridents. 










This is the one for the assembly of the tridents (the M20 washer is doubling for the axle hub in this shot!) 










regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

With every new type of locomotive that appears there was always some patent or other attached to it, the Webb compound is one of the more (in)famous ones. I had, through my reading, been made aware of a patent for this locomotive and sheer curiosity made me fork out my £3.57p for a copy of the patent from H.M.P.O. 

After having studied it for three days I am of the opinion that Sir Vincent Raven was either totally barking mad -or a certifiable genius. 

One of the problems you get with a symmetrical locomotive is the fact that the front bogie acts as a guide -but the rear bogie tends to flop around all over the track... What this patent describes is a method of turning a symmetrical loco into a non-symmetrical loco, depending on which way it is going!!! 

The EE-1 used a std (for the time) front and rear bogie connected by radial arms from the position just in front of the central driving wheels. There is a central pivot in each of the bogies. 

When the loco is moving forwards a pneumatic piston moves an rod pushing a fork against the rear bogie pivot arms -thus stopping it from moving. At high speeds the same thing happens to the front pivot. Thus the loco becomes more rigid at higher speeds. The only thing I have ever seen like it is the Citroen SM in which the steering became progressively heavier at higher speeds to stop the driver doing "silly things" at the wheel. 

This so very wild and wonderful -that I am going to have to figure out some way of getting to work in the model. At the moment I am debating whether to admit defeat and start looking into PICAXE programming to control everything. There is going to have to be three sets of ESC's to run this thing as it is... 

I will try and draw you some diagrams later -at the moment my eyes are feeling like boiled onions(!) 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

As Promised... 










regards 

ralph


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## sschaer (Jan 2, 2008)

ralph, 

you might find suiting gears pinions and such from robinson racing. this was my favourit manufacturer when i was r/c car racing. 

http://www.robinsonracing.com/


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well... 

I have to confess that this is one of the slowest models to get off the gound that I have ever done. So far after several weeks of working things out, all I have to show for it are; pieces of lollipop stick stuck to plywood and heap of scribblings. But, on the whole am happy with the mild deforestation that I am causing!!! 

This is the drawing for the chassis which will be cut from 3mm thick mild steel plate. I have to admit that after all the cutting and soldering involved with the American Style Bar Frame chassis -it will be a joy to actually hold it in my hands without wondering if anything has bent. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic9.jpg 

The steel for the wheels has been ordered -and is (hopefully) being cut as I type... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The steel was finally delivered at 20:34 last night... Well this evening I have been busy with my scribers and steel rules putting centre points in steel plates and this is the first thought assembly(!) 










Each of those large pieces of steel is 0.8cm thick and 10cm sq. The smaller ones are 6cm sq. The shafts are 0.8cm and 0.6cm dia respectively. You can see the pieces of 2cm dia bar that will form the hubs of the wheels and behind them the lengths of 0.6 and 0.5 cm sq steel bar that will form the spokes. The length of the loco will be 66cm. 










Sorry for the poor shot -but it was dark at this time! The shot shows the slocomb having done its job and bored the 0.8cm hole through the hub. This will have to reamed out to provide a "true" running surface on the shaft. 

One down -five to go.... 

regards 

ralph


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## rangerjoel (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the photos Ralph! I’m always happy to see some nice shop work photos. 
 
Joel


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Ralph, I admit not coming often here so I just stumbled upon the thread and read it again. Iif you finish that loc with your tools no model engineer will be laughing on the floor. Maybe scraping his jaw off but that's another problem. 

Are you going to cut your wheels from plate or do I miss something? 

I must say I find the patent about the bogies fascinating. But if you stiffen the loc like that, won't it become harder to get it around the bends? 

Keep up the good work.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Havoc, 

Well actually -the steel plate will provide the wheel rims and tyres. Using my milling machine and rotary table I will cut profiled "washers" that will be brazed to the spokes. 

The Lathe 









The Milling machine and rotary table 









They may be small -but their selection took well over a year!!! They had to be powerful enough for general work -but be light enough to be carried. When they were delivered they were on a pallet left on the kerbside -getting them from the kerbside to my shed (150m) -was my problem... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

What you see here is the first "snowflake wheel" in pieces. At the moment I have 4 out of 6 "tridents" silver soldered together I will clean up the blackened mess outside tomorrow morning. I am suffering a few "ouch!" places but this is not from the soldering -but more from the amount of hacksaw work that is having to be done. At the moment I am typing this one handed with a ice pack compress on my left wrist. This was the hand that had to hold the steel rod steady while I cut through it -I did try more than a few clamps, mole grips etc -but none of them did as well as my left hand.... 

Time for tea, biscuits and a hot shower!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 09/13/2008 1:50 PM


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, anybody who can take that many pieces and make them into a wheel that runs true has got to be some kind of wizard!!! I hope your hand recovers soon. Keep up the amazing work.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok -I will type this while the Sunday lunch cooks... 

The first shot shows the pieces of steel loaded into the "jig". the jig is made from 5mm sq pine and the steel is 6mm sq. 










The steel is then "dobbed" with thick CA and a length of lollipop stick applied. This bonds the pieces of steel in the same position as they would have been in the jig... 










Extract the assembly in one piece! Often not done with out "WORDS!" 










Take the stack of six lollipop re-enforced tridents outside. Clamp them in a small vice by their edges -the side of the lollipop stick forming a useful guide as the vice gets very hot after the first one... 










Ignite the MAPP gas torch (top lefthand corner) and cook until dull red I normally apply my flux with my rod, (i.e. warm the rod and dip it in the flux) and then scratch the area to be fluxed with it. I think I tend to use rather more silver solder this way -but I have never had a joint fail on me yet. 










As you can see the length of lollipop stick burns off in the first few seconds, (hardly suprising in a 2000 deg C flame), and the silver solder sucks into the joints. Next step is grinding and filing off the excess silver solder... 

I now have 12 tridents, (or two wheels worth), the next step, of joining the shafts to the hub is, "going to be fun"(!) 

regards 

ralph


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Impressive Ralph.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the sides of your tridents look long to me.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

*They are!* 

The maths to find the length is based on an 18 sided polygon. Once the tridents are fixed to the hub a disc will be dropped over them, the circumference scribed, and then they can be ground to size. If all has gone well, the outsides of the ends of the trident will JUST touch the circumference with a "triangular bit" to be ground off. 

viz: 










That is the actual size of the tridents et al. 

I forsee some delicate work with an angle grinder!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

somehow I get the impression that there should be an easier way...


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well after a few evenings of scorched fingers, a rain of burning lollipop sticks and the stink of MAPP gas -I am here!!! 










What you see before you are the cleaned up four driver wheels (indicated by the RED hubs). The hubs have been turned down to 13.75mm for 13mm of their 25mm length. These are the wheels that will have to pivot. They have been positioned on their jigs and then NAILED (honestly!) into position. The central hub sits in a 20mm hole bored through the MDF -thus it sits 6mm below the surface of the jig with the top of the tridents flush with the start of the "turning". Currently I am out of the correct type of silver solder to begin the final assembly of the snowflake wheel (I think I have enough to do one maybe two wheels). My main worry at the moment is the fact that despite the fact that everything is secure and the hub is braced on six sides by tridents -what happens to it when I hit it with the MAPP gas torch??? 

I HOPE(!) that by the time the torch has burned through to the bottom of the MDF that at least two of the spokes will be attached and despite the fact that the hub is now held in place by ashes -it will still be central... 

regards 

ralph


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## Doddy (Jan 23, 2008)

Hi Ralph, 

I had a very good look at your website, lots of very unorthodox traction you have there, I look forward to more on this particular project though. 

For myself, I also loved the Swiss built indian electric you have documented! 

Doddy.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Having had nothing to do but rack my brains on how I will do things... The problem of how to detect when the loco is cornering, (so that I can lock and unlock the trailing bogie), has been one that has been troubling me for some time!!! 

It had to be sensitive enough to actually tell when the front bogie had hit a curve but not to be so "twitchy" that it flicked in and out as the bogie rattled along the track work. I had discounted the use of a magnet and reed relay for doing this as it would not be sensitive enough and similarly an LED/Photodiode system with a slot would be too twitchy to work well. I had almost worked out a system using a potentiometer when I took my ruler in my hands and it bent... 

And then is when it hit me. 

What I wanted was a substance whose electrical resistance changed as it was bent. There exist several substances that fulfill these qualities but none of them are "shop shelf" items. Quantumn Tunneling Composite [QTC] can be described as a sponge with tiny carbon grains in it. The more you squeeze it, the more grains touch -the more it conducts. 

So, at the end of a mad half hour of flipping through pages, I have the design in front of you. 

viz: 










The bogie arm rotates an eccentric squeezing the QTC until the voltage is enough to trigger the reed relay, (and hence the power relay), this triggers the solenoid that unlocks the rear bogie. A reed switch and magnet array on both bogies tells the system when both bogies are straight and this then locks the rear bogie.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

My God, You really are somewhat mad!!! I love it. This is a very intresting project and I really am amazed at what you accomplish with relatively little fancy equpment.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, aren't you getting carried away a bit??? Now, suppose you center the front bogie with some springs (and for good measure add a shockabsorber to reduce flutter). Then with the optocell, a V-formed shutter and a comparator with a good deal of hysteresis you might get there without getting quantum mechanics to the rescue. That engine worked even without vacuum tubes!

Ever tought about magnetorhoelogical fluids to lock your bogie?


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

But if he does that, he might have to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Havoc, 

QTC is available off the shelf at my local Maplins. It comes in a pack of four 1cm sq "pills" and conductivity ranges from 10k ohm to 1 ohm at 10N force, and it is only £1.49p. The application sheet shows how you can make a kbd from them! As to *VALVES(!)* that is somewhat of a sore point at the moment -I have blown an EL34 in my *British* made VTL amp and no-one in the city has a "singleton" to sell. Every dealer will, however, willingly sell me a matched set of four... 

regards 

ralph


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

For a single EL-34 try a good guitar store. Guitar amps eat up EL-34s


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

There comes one point in every project that you feel like you could just go into a dark corner and just *SCREAM!!!*

This point was reached yesterday afternoon....

Well I had my nice jigs, all the steel was shiny in the sun and I had a fresh cylinder of propane. I was set to start soldering the tridents to the hubs. I was worried that the centre of the jig would burn through -*none* of them did. The problem that has arisen is one that I could never have foreseen. As the temperature of the centre hub rose to red heat the MDF around it caught fire, this was not unexpected!!! The soot from the burning MDF settled on the still unsoldered steel and stopped it from soldering. Thus I had, (what I thought), was a good layer of silver down each side of the joint -but infact it had not stuck...


Added to this the whole thing while it cooled underwent a "cheese sandwich" and the edges of the MDF curled up -breaking any still soft or molten silver solder joint. 


I have a nice collection of wheels -none of which are usable. I do in fact have one with six tridents attached to it -but the joints are so pathetic that I can twist them with my fingers. I am going to have to re-think this and probably scrap what I have done. Still looking on the positive side, I now know how *NOT* to do it...



At the moment I feel that I am looking at fresh order of square steel rod and start sawing again. I am not a good welder but it looks like 1.5 mm rods at 60 Amperes will have to be used -plus an awful lot of grinding!!! 


regards

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

You have my sympathy as I understand that feeling well enough.


Can't you rescue something out of it? With a stiff wire brush and an old file. As long as the tridents didn't come apart you might give it another try. But this time I would coat the flux from the start and maybe cut a groove in the wood below the joints. And use something else than mdf, it isn't really nice stuff. Full of resins. Or use a base of wood and put a sheet of inox on top of it so the silver solder won't take to it.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry about your poor result, I hope that you can salvage your spokes. One possibility I thought of is to use a hard wood instead of the MDF and cover it with a layer of Fiber-fax insulating sheet. That is the stuff that is used to insulate boilers. I also thought you might be able to use a very soft fire brick. I have seen some that I think were soft enough to drive a nail into without cracking.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm.... 

As Ethan, age 5, told me one day, "go lay down on your bed, put the sheet over your head, and think about it for a while. You'll see how to solve the problem."


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph

What about using steel for your jig instead of your MDF?

That way you could...
[*] Drill the central hole for the hub.
[*] Scribe the correct outline of each trident on the jig.
[*] Drill holes through the jig to hold each part of the trident in place, even those that are already soldered.
[*] Then drill & tap at least one hole in each section of the trident so that you can securely mount them to the jig. That way even if some of the previously soldered joints come loose they'll be held tight in place for re-soldering.
[*] You should be able to get the fit of the hub between the tridents tight enough to hold it in place while soldering, or you could turn new hubs with a shoulder to keep it from falling through..
[*] Since you're going to need to face both the front and back of the wheel before you're done, taking a bit more effort to remove the jig from the one side shouldn't be all that bad. You might even be able to coat the jig's surface with something that would prevent bonding of the solder.
[*] Additionally, I believe that using the steel for the jig you could, instead of placing the jig flat have it on an angle and having a short piece of the solder laying in place so that all you would need to do is worry about applying the heat.
[/list] Just a thought.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph

In thinking about it a bit more, using the steel for the jig and letting the spokes bond to the jig, might provide other advantages. it should place less stress on each of the spokes when turning them to the proper diameter for the wheel rim. Then if you don't take the jig off and when you made it. it was large enough to provide an area to secure the rim to it, you'd be all set to solder the rim to the spokes. Before you faced the front and rear.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

In thinking about it a bit more, using the steel for the jig and letting the spokes bond to the jig, might provide other advantages.



Wouldn't the jig justbe silver soldered to the wheel assembly? Then you would have to make 4 jigs, one for every wheel and remove them from the wheel (turning down probably) without upsetting anything else.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, that is correct much the same way as the MDF ones were.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well the report from the gods of "The Welding Institute" is that I put *far* too much heat into the work!!! I used a big fat propane flame rather than a short hot MAPP gas one... Yes what I have done is recoverable -but it would be easier to start afresh(!) The next jig is going to be made from 5mm thick steel plate with 4mm bolts and well oiled with "spatter stop". I harbor no illusions as to the quality of my welding -it is strong -but very messy and ugly!!! 

Oh well... 

regards 

ralph


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Sir,
Maybe I missed it in the discussion but have you considered having the snow flakes Laser cut. The shop could cut the bore for the hub and you ream it to finished size, or they could engrave a cross for you to drill it out. Cost more but your hand will hurt less.


Phillip


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Phillip, 

Yes, I could have the wheels laser cut, I could even have them electron beam welded to the shafts, and the whole thing turned to an accuracy of 0.1micons and spin balanced to 15k RPM... There *are* advantages to living in *Derby*!!! However -I would not have done it myself -which is my whole reason for doing this. Here I am learning what does and does not work. I did contemplate milling the snowflake wheels from solid slabs of 8mm thick steel -something that I am going to have to do for the front and rear bogie wheels, (which are frankly boxpok gone wrong!), when the time comes... 

No-one I know has even attempted anything like these wheels -I was turned down flat by more than one model engineering company. I love this loco -so as the saying goes; "If anyone is going to figure out how to build a working snowflake wheel and a working quill drive for it -it will have to be me". 

Several people of my aquaintence are watching with baited breath. Because if I can crack how to do this, then there are a number of models that could now be built, that couldn't be previously -because of the problem of building a true working snowflake wheel... I have got 30% of the way there, in two attempts, and to be honest -I am actually suprised that I have made it this far!!! 

Once the SIX main drive wheels are built and the quills are ready to be installed (and that will be quite a lot of "fun"), then the hard work of the locomotive is finished. The phrase that springs to mind here is: "Famous Last Words!!!" 

regards 

ralph


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Sir,
Fair enough, I can certainly understand were you are coming from. Just ask my wife. I am enjoying watching your progress and your web page. 


Phillip


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I watch Ralph work with fascination.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph

Something else that resurfaced within the cobwebs of my mind. I remember reading in Kozo Hiraoka's books that one mistake people make when silver brazing is they make the joints fit too flush, leaving no room for the silver solder to flow properly resulting in weak joints. He recommended using a prick punch with a light tap of a hammer, to dimple one side of a joint and create a gap of approximately .005".

Just another thought for what it's worth.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

You're save Ralph, they closed Colney Hatch some time ago... 










I don't know what I would prefer, milling or fabrication. But like you I would try fabrication first. The only problem you have with your method is the MDF afer all. So changing to another base material (or combination) would probably solve your problems. Why not re-use some of the failed stuff to set up another try? 


I am actually suprised that I have made it this far!!!



Know that feeling as well. But after the Klose engine it shouldn't surprise you.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps you could bore holes in the hubs and make bosses on the spokes so you're not soldering a butt joint.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

That Thomas is almost exactly the report from the "pub autopsy"!!! The hub will have to be bored and then Aerocraft Grade Titanium 3mm threaded inserts screwed into both the hub and trident. The gap can then be closed with silver solder -thus is will look pretty and actually be far stronger than if it was 6mm thick steel... And because the join is (nearly) self supporting it can be braced on top of a clay mound and that will hold it in position while it gets the torch treatment. The problem is drilling a 3mm hole down the length of one of the now very scorched and flux covered trident -this will means making some form of sabot to hold it in the jaws of the lathe while I drill. (But that should be pretty easy?) 

regards 

ralph 

PS I already have the Titanium threaded inserts....


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Why don't you just get the flux off first? Put a brass wire wheel on a dremel and clean away or use a stiff steel wire brush. Some hot water might help as well. 


I honestly don't see the need to use aircraft grade titanium for this. Just a few steel screws or pieces of threaded rod would work as well.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, but if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing, mythbusters style! 

Don't think you'd have to bore all the way through. Just drill and tap for a lug in the hub end, and drill and tap the hub to match and screw them together. Then silver solder.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

(Cough!) in this city there is a ready(?) supply of aero grade alloys along with aero grade carbon fibre and kevlar. My motor car uses quite a lot of Titanium, carbon fibre and kevlar in it -from the same source.... I have a metre length of 3mm Titanium threaded rod left over from my last motor car re-build. I would love a set of Titanium cylinder liners for my engine -since one of the burn products from nitromethane is nitric acid... 

regards 

ralph


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Sir,
Are your cars on your web sight? 
Phillip


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Phil, his moggy is weirder than his locos. Not sure the web is ready for Gertrude yet.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

It is with great personal relief that I can announce that I now know the technique involved in producing a snowflake wheel. So far I have had a 50% failure rate in test of previous attempts but now we have a strong rigid snowflake that we can build on!!! I tried Epoxy resins in the stud hole combination and this does show great promise -but for Gauge 3 is is still too weak. The SIF BRONZE process is the one to use and it works well. The bronze flows around the pins and sucks up nicely into the holes. The only problem is that everything is running at orange heat and there have been "a large dictionary of WORDS" spoken when the jig and the hub distorted and the use of a hammer is required to free the hub from the jig. NO I DID NOT STICK THE HUB TO THE JIG!!! A file and oil paper took the burrs of the hub and some more "anti spatter spray" used on the jig after it has been pounded flat again...










At the end of the evenings work I have a workshop that stinks like a drain (MAPP gas) two snowflakes and big grin on my face!!! I was approaching the point where I was beginning to get very worried that this might actually be impossible to do with "Kitchen Sink Engineering" level of technology.


Tomorrow I can probably make another two and hopefully by Sunday I should have something!!!


regards

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well at the end of the day we have a small stack of steel snowflakes -some of which may need some pounding with a hammer to get flat... The experimental test with the bull gear have commenced and I am happy to say that the gear does fit where it should do. The 3mm bolt holes on the rim of the bull gear line up tangentially with the centres of the tridents. The quick spin in the lathe shows that some of the spokes have a 1-2mm run out -but I am not sure if I should lathe them flat or pound them flat!!! The next step will be the cutting of the tyres for the spokes. This is the bit that will probably make or break the project. 

The wheel plate is 8mm thick and the spokes are made from 6mm sq steel...

regards

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Come on Ralph, go for it. You cleared a major hurdle I think. Once those wheels are done you're in the clear.


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry to have been away so long, Mr. Brades, but be assured you have my greatest support in this endeavor! There are oh so few of us that are willing to go where sane men fear to tread! Continued success! 
Chris


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Could I please take the time to publicly thank you both for your support!!! This past weekend has been a very trying one... I had my first go at milling a tyre out of 8mm thick steel plate and came withing millimetres of losing one of my fingers. I was happily rotating my slab with my rotary table when it suddenly slipped and the cutter snapped (it was a 3mm one). The cutter (rotating at 2,000RPM) bounced off the wall and embedded itself in the work top near my wedding ring. I had to unscrew it from the wood!










What I really need is someone to tell me what I am doing wrong. I have tooth loosening vibration, the workpiece seems to want to "snatch" and I think the central gear in my rotary table has sheared all of its teeth... 

regards

ralph


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

are you cutting it dry?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, could you get a piece of pipe or tubing that is close to the dimensions you need and go from? Please be careful we don't want to hear of any amputations!! I take it that you don't have a lathe to turn you rims.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I still worry about cutting steel at 2,000 rpm (we chatted earlier today).


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Thomas, 

According to the calculator used by my late father the max cutting rotation for a 3mm T/C mill should be 2,600RPM and the feed speed across the table no more than 832mm per minute. I should be OK with this? Although the picture above was taken about 30 minutes after I had finished my first experimental rotation I am cutting it with SUDS (a 1:20 mixture of Castrol Coolidge and water). I have got the feed choked down to about 200ml per minute. I have asked around and "Frankfurt" says to try a full depth traverse cut from a pre-drilled hole, rather than winding it down slowly.

I will turn up the tap on the SUDS, try this with a full depth cut -and I will report back.


I do have a lathe -it is Cobra with a 4 jaw 100mm chuck. The tyre will have to be cut with the flanges and is around 6mm thick. The idea was to cut a ring out of 8mm steel and then turn this on the lathe to the correct profile. 


regards

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

A TC mill at 2000rpm won't stand the slightest shock, hand feed is rather rough for such a setup. And your mill isn't one of those big beefy pieces so your stiffness is small. Since you don't need the cutter to be 3mm, why not use something more solid like 6 or 8mm HSS and lower the speed to 300-500 range. 


Another way to go would be to jigsaw your rings and finish them on the lathe. You're going to use the lathe anyway so it doesn't matter if you start froma bit rougher piece.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

As the saying goes; "We have separation"... This *very* bad shot is one of the first tyre in the 4 jaw chuck. I have this conviction that it is ruined but I do live in hopes!!! The plan is to turn the inside smooth and then fit the 3 jaw and wind out the jaws and then turn the outside of the tyre for the flanges and treads. This raises the question of the "correct" shape for the flanges and the coning for the treads... I come from a colonial back ground and our treads where perfectly flat (i.e. zero degrees) and our inner flanges at 10 degrees with a zero degrees outer flange. The Gauge 3 std says that they have to be cut to a 20 degree tread and a 10 degree inner and outer flange profile. I am going to have a "go" at the Gauge 3 profile, even though this will entail the purchase of some more equipment for my lathe...










Once I have finished cutting my tyre -I then have the problem of unifying the spokes to the tyre...


regards

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, turn your threads when the wheel is complete! Then you are sure that the thread is concentric to the axle. Make the wheel, then turn a stub in your lather that will fit the axle hole and then turn all your wheels in 1 setup. That way you are sure they all have the same diameter and are concentric to the axles. 

As for the thread, 20° looks excessive. I use 2-3° for the thread, and 10° for inside and outside of the flange.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Havoc, 

You are quite right -it should read 2 degrees for the tread angle!!! I am going to attach the spokes to the rough finished tyre and then "true it up" on the lathe -as you said. Currently the hubs have a 7mm hole through them that will have to be opened out to 8mm for the axles to fit. I have also got to drill the hubs to take the pins through the axles. 

At the moment the outside of the tyre is a mess of grinding marks... 

regards 

ralph


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Snowflake Wheel. 










*Q.E.D.* 

regards 

ralph


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good Ralph! It isn't a nightmare anymore. At most a bad dream  Wheels are indeed a lot work.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Way cool!


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