# Which decoders are 100% LGB Direct Decoder Interface compatible?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

A lot of folks have their own preferred brand and models of decoders. That is fine with me.

In my case I have decided to limit my use of DCC and MTS to LGB Locos or other motorized LGB devices (Streetcars etc.) that either came with an LGB decoder or that are 100% compatible with my LGB MTS products.

That means all decoders must be capable of Serial (Central Stations 1) AND Parallel (Central Stations II and III) and LGB 55015 (S&P) and 55016 (S&P) Wireless Remotes.

So far as I know only Massoth (with the LGB Central Station III's DIMAX bus) and LGB decoders are 100% compatible unless I also buy someone else's Central Station - and their wireless remotes (that won't work with my LGB remotes).

To simplify things, I guess the short question is which other brands and models can match the plug in capability (or at least the ability to plug the wires into the sockets of an LGB 6 pin Direct Decoder Interface)?

The Massoth L decoder does but it does not handle as many amps as I need. A Massoth XL will also work by plugging into the DDI sockets and does have the ability to handle the amps necessary.










To be specific I am looking for information about decoders that will work in a (2 motor) LGB F7ABBBBBBA See-Thru that has 6 pin DDI interfaces in the A units.

I don't know enough about MTS and DCC to understand how and why other decoders do not appear to have the same outputs (such as F1) on LGB interfaces.

I don't have any need for functions beyond what I get with LGB and Massoth decoders - motor control, light control, Serial, Parallel, at least 14 and 28 steps, ability to run on analog track power and under MTS, ability for A units to be programmed in opposite directions (AA, ABA & ABBA etc.), bell, whistle, other LGB functions such as smoke, brake sounds etc. (sound is not necessary because the LGB Locos already have LGB sound).

This has nothing to do with which decoders are best but disregarding MRC decoders that have proven to me to be unsatisfactory in my locos.

100% LGB MTS compatibility is what I am really looking for. Anything that is not 100% LGB MTS compatible/capable may be the best decoder in the world but would be of no value to me.

I don't think I have seen wiring diagrams of how to plug other brands of decoders into LGB 6 and 10 pin DDI sockets. That is the sort of thing I would hope to find here.

I do have one F7ABBBBBBA See-Thru that I put Massoth XLs into years ago so I can open that one up to see how I connected the XL to the 6 pin Direct Decoder Interface. Because it is a See-Thru I may not even have to open it up.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/F7ST3.wmv

As far as I recall I did not have to program anything with the L and XL decoders as they were already pre-programmed correctly for the LGB lights etc. Having to program and having to buy something to program with would be a significant disadvantage to me. It would also be a significant disadvantage if the seller did not have the time and patience to talk me through something that was not as simple as LGB's MTS.

This is not a put down of any other brands. I just don't want to put a lot of time and effort in learning something new - if I can possibly avoid it.

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, very interesting. Zimo comes close, but for serial operation a CV must be set, and then reset for parallel, so it does not meet your specific requirements. I know you have both serial and parallel systems, therefore you need the ease of not having to change anything to use any engine on any system.

OTOH, installing a Zimo MX645 in the LGB rail truck is easy, 4 wires in the box at the back of the cab and 2 for a speaker. No disassembly needed unless you wanted to add lights.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry,

I would suggest you put your MTS I system out to pasture and forget about ompatibility with serial operation.
That system is more than 10 years old and by trying to keep compatible with serial, especially if you want the decoder to handle both serial and parallel at the same time, you are restricting yourself severerly when it comes to decoder and functionality choice.
And in the long run you will keep spending more unnecessary money by being that restricted in decoder choice.
Today LGB themselves don't even support serial operation any more.

Knut


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There is no LGB anymore and LGB never made decoders!! Dickie toys has Marklin moving some 'LGB' electronics from Massoth to Marklin electronics.

However both Massoth and Zimo support serial operation and there may be others.

But Jerry wants plug-in and play which is still available.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> But Jerry wants plug-in and play which is still available.


As Dan knows, part of my definition of plug and play is to remain compatible with my oldest LGB locomotives (and various sound systems) which might or might not be serial or parallel. 

I have Central Stations I, II & III but if I happen to have any kids who want to run trains I will probably put them on an LGB portable layout with a Central Station I and the cheapest/oldest loco with who knows what brand and model of decoder in it. I also have an LGB/Aster White Pass Mikado on display that never moves but it is handy to have a Central Station I connected to the track inside the plexiglas just to power the sounds. 

It is simply easier for me to insist on Serial capability than to have to put any time or effort into thinking/testing to find out if something will work with it.

The truth is that at this point I don't even know how to switch a Central Station II or III from Parallel or Serial.

Massoth tends to win (for my needs) simply because they made so much of the LGB electronics plus my communications with Daniel confirmed to me that they stand behind their products.

A big point with me is what I can do without having to learn anything new.

Dan and Mahommed have both been a lot of help.

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

krs said:


> Jerry,
> 
> I would suggest you put your MTS I system out to pasture and forget about ompatibility with serial operation.
> That system is more than 10 years old and by trying to keep compatible with serial, especially if you want the decoder to handle both serial and parallel at the same time, you are restricting yourself severerly when it comes to decoder and functionality choice.
> ...


Knut, 

Most of my stuff is old but fully operational. Keeping Serial compatibility is to assure myself that, regardless of age, everything will continue to be compatible. By the same token if a Parallel Central Station, Loco Remote, Universal Remote, Transmitter or Receiver should fail there will always be Parallel or Serial versions in the cabinet to replace them.

Recently I've had circuit boards, decoders and possibly a Central Station and or Remotes fail but Train-Li has been able to obtain replacements for me at reasonable prices.

The reality is that I am not restricting myself in the least or spending anything extra because I don't want or need anything made since LGB & Aristo closed.

All I ever wanted from MTS/DCC is remote control with perhaps lights, bell and whistle.

If MTS/DCC ever fails or gets too expensive, I could replace it with track power and a Revolution Base Station.

This has nothing to do with other brands and their features - it's just that improving or expanding the layouts is no longer of particular interest or value to me.

As I get older I just want to keep what I have working with the bare minimum of effort on my part.

There are a lot of things I could do if I wanted to but I achieved all of my objectives years ago.

Cheers,

Jerry


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> There is no LGB anymore and LGB never made decoders!! Dickie toys has Marklin moving some 'LGB' electronics from Massoth to Marklin electronics.


I think you are really going to confuse everyone here with a statement like that.

LGB is still alive and well.
Perhaps one could argue about the "well" part.

What does not exist anymore is the firm that created LGB in 1968, Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk.
LGB is just the product name of one of that companies products - rights to the name and the product were sold to Marklin and Marklin was eventually bought by Simba-Dickie when Marklin had financial difficulties.

LGB today offers the same type of products LGB has always offered, they use the same molds and are developing new ones - all of the production facilities that were moved to China previously have now been brought back to Europe and LGB is just starting this year to bring a few US type locos and rolling stock back into their portfolio.

As far as decoders are concerned, yes LGB doesn't manufacture those themselves like many, many other "LGB" items that bear the LGB name. But that is really irrelevant - it's the name on the product that counts and who markets and sells it.
The Marklin Central Station and the Marklin decoder are also not manufactured by Marklin but by an outside company - I still consider that a Marklin product and I go to Marklin for support and warranty issues.

Knut


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> As I get older I just want to keep what I have working with the bare minimum of effort on my part.


OK - I understand.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It's a funny and sometimes small world. After I started this topic I visited a fellow I knew but had not seen for several years who has an elaborate HO layout running on DigiTrax DCC. 

Then I discovered I had put a DigiTrax decoder in a Thomas the tank years ago and MRC decoders (worthless) in a couple of Lionel 0-4-0s plus some little DigiTrax DH123 decoders to run some LGB analog sound systems. 

I ended up buying the stuff that I mentioned in the topic below.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/39-d...nyone-using-jmri-decoderpro-panelpro-etc.html​
Regarding this topic nothing has really changed as I will continue to use LGB and Massoth decoders and remotes and the LGB MTS central stations with LGB Locos. I'll just have the additional option of flipping a switch and running the layout with the DigiTrax DCS 200 and DigiTrax remote (that I'll be able to also use on the HO layout ) and DigiTrax PC programming capability.

The Aristo locos will stay with Revolutions for outdoor running but I may put DigiTrax decoders into a couple of USAT diesels that I had used as switchers.

Just another option to fall back on while keeping all LGB DDI equipment 100% MTS compatible.

Kind of weird but it makes sense to me.

Jerry


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, FYI
To make the MTS II or MTS III switch from serial (the default on new addresses) to parallel, all you need to do with the engine addresses is to hit Function and the 9 key at the same time.
To verify, in serial mode hitting Function 8 will give 8 light flashes at about 1 second intervals, parallel just 1 flash of the light for Function 8.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, FYI
> To make the MTS II or MTS III switch from serial (the default on new addresses) to parallel, all you need to do with the engine addresses is to hit Function and the 9 key at the same time.
> To verify, in serial mode hitting Function 8 will give 8 light flashes at about 1 second intervals, parallel just 1 flash of the light for Function 8.


 Hi Dan,

That is one of the things I really needed to know.

Thanks

Jerry


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

You are quite welcome, let me know if I can be of further help, and I hope Greg documents this info as I suspect lots of info will not be saved as Marklin converts LGB to their electronics. Important to note that the Allegra shipped with 28 speed steps which the older MTS I system users can not address/change easily as you had to have the 55015 on a program track with separate power source and blindly write 2 addresses and hope one did not make a mistake as there was no read back. This is where the 55045 computer module was very handy and user interface was easy to use. Worse yet was owners of mouse only MTS I or MTS II system.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have not used the 55045 yet. I still need the right combination of PC with RS232 and compatible windows.
*
Hint: The software runs very slowly on older (slower) computers, which means that your layout may react with a significant lag to your commands. Also, the software does not work with Windows 3.1 or 3.11.*

I am hoping a new RS232 – USB adapter may work better than my old one and that the software might work with Windows XP. I don't think I have anything left with windows 3.11. I would like to at least be able to try the 55045.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I have XP on my 3 mhz desk style computer and both the serial port and USB port run the MTS software. I do have the LGB USB converter cable, but found a generic one works if you get the correct software.
I save the engine files (*.dec) and back them up. I even add comments to these in a second save.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I gave up and bit the bullet by ordering the Massoth Wireless DCC Starter Set, 12 Amps which includes the 1210Z Central Station, Navigator, and RC-Receiver. For power I added the 1200T Switching Power Supply and to maintain the use of my LGB Loco and Universal Remotes I included the Transducer. They arrived yesterday and today I ordered the PC-Module.

This way I should be able to program, read and do pretty much anything with my LGB and Massoth decoder equipped LGB locos. Perhaps just as important, I will be able to do it via the USB ports of my Windows 8.1 PC's rather than trying to make do with older PC's with only RS232 ports and incompatible software.

A side benefit will be that I will still have the LGB Central Stations II and III which should work well with decoders programmed with the 1210Z and Navigators.

On the low price end the Digitrax DCS200 System should work well with locos where all I want is throttle control leaving bells and whistles to track magnets.

With 12 amps from the Massoth System and 5 - 8 amps (per mainline) with the Digitrax System there should be enough power to handle the trains including lighted coaches.

Perhaps the 1210Z with the PC-Module will prove to be simple enough for me to understand and use with a minimum of confusion.

Jerry


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, I have XP on my 3 mhz desk style computer and both the serial port and USB port run the MTS software. I do have the LGB USB converter cable, but found a generic one works if you get the correct software.
> I save the engine files (*.dec) and back them up. I even add comments to these in a second save.


Hi Dan,

I hope to try running the LGB software with a couple old XP laptops this week. Marilyn is home but I am dog sitting for our daughter and her family this week which gives me a place to play with the various MTS & DCC options and a Revolution for comparison.

Perhaps with nothing but TV and the DCC systems to do I will have time to sort some things out for myself.

Jerry


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, you can run the Massoth version on the 55045, but I found it best to load a LGB file from the Massoth database and then read a LGB loco from the 55045.

BUt it may be different now as I believe the software has been updated.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry, you can run the Massoth version on the 55045, but I found it best to load a LGB file from the Massoth database and then read a LGB loco from the 55045.
> 
> BUt it may be different now as I believe the software has been updated.


Hi Dan,

I have managed to run the LGB software 6.0 with an XP laptop and the LGB 55045. The Garmin USB adapter worked but the Toshiba PCMCIA USB adapter did not.

I was also able to run the Massoth DCC Programmer software with the LGB 55045 (it loaded but I could not figure out what to do with it).

I will try again tomorrow.

Thanks, 

Jerry


----------

