# Doing a Layout in a different country....



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

While viewing the geniuses (genii?) at the Small Layout site, I saw a Frenchman's RR based in Australia.

If I could emigrate to one country, Austrialia would be it. I suppose because the only thing I know about it is "Waltzing Matilda" plus a few non-fiction books I've read, and "Crocodile Dundee". And the stories a friend of mine told. He took R&R there while in 'Nam. Said the people were great. He stayed at a sheep station. And, I have a notion people aren't shoulder-to-shoulder everywhere.

It hit me that here I am, with no track laid yet, getting ready to base my RR in the region I grew up: the St. Francois Mtns of SE MO. Well, fine, at least I know the country. OTOH, I _know_ the country. Tourists overrun it, thinking it's wonderful, and provide revenue for the hillbillies, sometimes without realizing it until they take inventory at home. There is little in the way of industry other than timber and mining. And cattle & hog raising.

So, I wondered, why not build an Austrialian-based layout? For me it'd be about as close as I'll ever get to the place. Another thing, from the Frenchie's pics, the trees sure would be easier to model. I like British and NZ engines & rolling stock.

Has anyone else tried doing a 'foreign' (as in the sense of unfamiliar geography) layout? What particular problems might arise?

Les


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

I never tried. I realized at the outset that the lush green gardens of South Western England would never look like Colorado or many parts of the USA. So I chose a fictitious railroad name which, I guess, could be somewhere in the States that is green and wooded. 


I have few buildings: there are too many plants. But as they die away I have been able to move onto the vacant real estate. 

One advantage of a "foreign" railroad is that few visitors can know whether it is correct or not.


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## timlee49 (Jan 12, 2008)

G'day Les,

If you are going to model Aussie narrow gauge, then the correct scale will be 1:24 to represent our usual 42 inch gauge.

Personally though I just use 1:20.3 and use standard Australian narrow gauge practices such as coupler height and type.

As for terrain, many narrow gauge railways (often refered to as Tramways if privately owned) ran Baldwins, English, German and French designed locos through desert or semi desert areas - dust and very low shrubs. or you could go for the Victorian and Queensland timber tramways that ran almost anything that you can conceive of including upright climaxes, Garretts or even the double Fairlies, but then you would need to model the bush so thick that you would only see small glimpses of parts of the Locos as they pass.

Yeah mate, DO IT! 

Let your mind go free!

If I can model South Australian Narrow Gauge in South Australia, representing places that never had railways or had Irish Broad Gauge railways, why can't you do it your way in Missouuri!

Hope to see some results one day,

Tim


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Les on 01/14/2009 8:25 PM So, I wondered, why not build an Austrialian-based layout? For me it'd be about as close as I'll ever get to the place. Another thing, from the Frenchie's pics, the trees sure would be easier to model. I like British and NZ engines & rolling stock. Has anyone else tried doing a 'foreign' (as in the sense of unfamiliar geography) layout? What particular problems might arise? 
Les



Dear Mr Les - As Mr Tim above notes - you CAN do it! But have a think about New Zealand, too. NZ runs on Cape Gauge - 3ft 6in - and has correspondingly far smaller railroad equipment. Add to that the unbelievable scenery of the NZ hinterland [The ' Lord of the Rings' trilogy was made there] and you are up for some great mountains and lakes scenery. If you ever get the chance, have a look at the fantastic two-DVD set of movies made by Marcus Lush - 'Off the rails' - in which he travels from Bluff on the tip ofthe South Island to Aukland and beyond on the North Island, mostly by rail.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Do not forget Quigly down under, and music by tge Bee Gees


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I model Colonial Railways, (what do you expect being a Colonial???). Until recently I had never seen an NZ lokey in the flesh and I had to go on pictures and drawings. However following a Christmas holiday in Napier I can at last say that I will have some genuine NZ ferns growing in my garden for the passing lokeys to admire. The instructions for getting the "spores" to grow involve yoghourt, peat, vermiculite and toast spread with vegamite(???)

However prior to this I used fruit bushes for my "Cabbage Trees" and it seemed to work (for me!). 


So -yes, it is possible to model railway systems in other parts of the world. In my case it is set on the Eastern Isle of NZ, (which sank about 8 million years ago). However before anyone starts, I holidayed in the suburb of Clive in Napier, (which I am told was below sea level before 1934) 

Always remember though -to have fun!!!


regards

ralph


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

TAC, 
North Island NZ. Some of the best trout fishing in the world from what I have read and seen on the tele. Wish I had gone there in 67/68. Might have stayed later. Sigh! 
Noel


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Northern NZ seems mighty nice country to me.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Wish I had gone there in 67/68. Might have stayed later.


From my observations after sending staff there, you might never have come back!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothin wrong with them Kiwi lokies in my eyes...


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

If the scenery/plants are what would grow okay in your climate that would be fine, but if not you would be fighting that all the time.


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

"Has anyone else tried doing a 'foreign'"?

Les try it. TAC, Alan (Great Western) and myself do it all the time.







We model US outline.








Rod


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 01/14/2009 8:25 PM
While viewing the geniuses (genii?) at the Small Layout site, I saw a Frenchman's RR based in Australia.

Has anyone else tried doing a 'foreign' (as in the sense of unfamiliar geography) layout? What particular problems might arise?

Les



I have had several layouts and two garden railways. They have been set in the US, UK, East Germany and for the current garden railway, the former Czechoslovakia.

The best thing to do is to get a good handle on the geography of the area. Get some general tour books, but also some about the industry, towns, etc. Get a feel for what is going on there and a WHY for the railway.

Find a few things that really set the area right. If you get them wrong, it can really spoil things, especially buildings. While you may have two buildings that are "German", a Saxon building in a Bavarian or Prussian layout is going to look really wrong.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks to all who've taken a moment to post an opinion.

I goofed by not mentioning my layout is indoors, so plants are not a problem.

But sigh, the dreams of the lowly are so easily crushed.









Friend Wife, aka known as 'The Cook' (one of my father's sagest pieces of advice: "Son, don't ever p*ss off the cook.") is also from the Ozarks, and who is from just one town south of mine, frowned and said 'No'. Since she's also the artist/landscaper/painter of finished works, I vaguely feel it would be best to let it be the St. Francois mtns after all.

Ah well. Not to weep. Except those Colonial locos are gonna look odd in some ol' Missouri holler. The Brits, et al, as I've said, have a patent on the magnificently ugly engine. 'Empire' writ in stately iron.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You just can't successfully model in your garden the railways of another country. No matter how hard you try you can't get the angle of the sun right.


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## Phil Creer (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 01/15/2009 4:18 PM
You just can't successfully model in your garden the railways of another country. No matter how hard you try you can't get the angle of the sun right. 

Ahem....









That's Fletch's first MasterClass loco running on the Ridge, BTW 
the Toenail Ridge Shortline is based in NE Oregon, it has had people ask me where they could visit it when visiting the Pacific Northwest. It is actually sited in Adelaide, South Australia and has been since 1996.
http://www.trainweb.org/toenailridge/" target="_blank">http://www.trainweb.org/toenailridge/
Our latitude is 35deg South, about the same as LA, so provided I lie and tell you that the picture you're looking at faces North when in actuality it faces South, who's gonna know?


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Well.. I model what WAS the Illinois Central through Southern Illinois...but it's now owned and controlled by the Canadian National.. So technically I model a forign Railroad...


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Phil,

I was gonna post ol' Semp and point out that opposite latitudes would give the same sun angle, but then I remembered the earth's axis of rotation isn't symmetrical, referencing the 'sun ribbon' one sees on globes, but I forget the numbers. I'm talking about the figure 8 thingy.

At any rate, a competent person could calculate the 'fudge factor'. 

And I doubt very many are adept at judging the time of day by the sun. (Writer excluded). (Modest bow).









Semper, have you been sampling the fuel? Hmm?









Now, giving Semper's point a bit of 'latitude' (sorry), if one were in Norway or Sweden, doing a layout would force one to Antarctica, I suspect.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Dave F on 01/15/2009 6:24 PM
Well.. I model what WAS the Illinois Central through Southern Illinois...but it's now owned and controlled by the Canadian National.. So technically I model a forign Railroad... " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wink.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> 






Dave,

And your equipment is made in China. Give it another 20 years, and you might be more prototypically correct than you imagine.









Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Vic,

WHAT kind of engine is that, and what minimum radius will it navigate? I copied the pic. With four sets of trucks, it ought to almost meet itself coming.









Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 01/15/2009 7:41 PM
Phil,

I was gonna post ol' Semp and point out that opposite latitudes would give the same sun angle, but then I remembered the earth's axis of rotation isn't symmetrical, referencing the 'sun ribbon' one sees on globes, but I forget the numbers. I'm talking about the figure 8 thingy.

At any rate, a competent person could calculate the 'fudge factor'. 

And I doubt very many are adept at judging the time of day by the sun. (Writer excluded). (Modest bow).









Semper, have you been sampling the fuel? Hmm?









Now, giving Semper's point a bit of 'latitude' (sorry), if one were in Norway or Sweden, doing a layout would force one to Antarctica, I suspect.

Les



That figure 8 on a globe is called "*analemma".* See: http://www.analemma.com/Pages/framesPage.html for more info 
Ain't it wunnerful whut ya's kin larn on dis here internet?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Les ,

*THAT *loco is the "Rolls Royce" of NZ lokies -It is the *Price 16 wheeler.* This is the one that I built.


http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/price16w.html

Here is the John Garner web site on NZ lokies


http://www.trainweb.org/nzgearedlocomotives/index.html

Remember someone had to go out and *sell* those to the customers...


regards

ralph


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

Les, do it! 
and to not p... off the cook, bring her travel agency flyers, so she can admire the chosen landscape (and reproduce it) 

i 've done it all my life. living first in germany, then in south america, i allways modelled northern american themes. 
and i have never been to the states! only to new york. 

the farther away (in miles and in years) you choose your setting, the less visitors you will have, that actually could compare. 
as the british modellers say: apply rule 8! 
(that means bluntly said: do, what effing pleases you. it's your railway and your fun!)


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in grubby urban south central Canada yet model lush rural New Brunswick. NB is like a foreign country (they don't speak English or French, for example, as far as I can tell, and I go there often to conduct research) and I think I capture it quite well.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semper,


A jug of real Ozark moonshine for you! It'll add 50 smph to your engines. The timing of your reply is perfect: my g.daugther is coming over to spend the night, and I'm always on the lookout for new things to teach her. (She's 13, soon to be unteachable, having concluded she know it all--going by her mother and uncle).









So we'll sit at the computer tonight and study those. Thanks!

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ralph,

Thanks for the websites. Those are some fascinating-looking (to me) engines.

Considering the one you built, how small a radius will it navigate successfully?

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

I'm learning a lot here. (See Semper's post). For instance, I didn't know there _was_ a 'grubby urban area' in S. central Canada. I thought it was pretty blank between the coasts, concerning big towns. Just big farms and ranches and the like.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Korm,

I don't think she'll be so easy to inspire.

I like Rule 8, yes I do.









Les


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Les;
At least some of my largescale layout will be in a different world, Middle Earth. Sure, New Zealand was used for making the movies, but there is still a lot of room for modeller's license.

The Brandywine & Gondor Railroad commenced construction from Minas Tirith and the Shire about ten years after the War of the Rings. The rails were joined near Isengard about eight years later. Much of the heavy grading and excavation was done by the remaining Uruk and troll prisoners taken in lesser campaigns after the Great War of the Rings. None of the other residents of Middle Earth were overly concerned about orcs and trolls going extinct. 

Enough steam powered equipment had been found in the ruins or Barad-dur to allow the men of Gondor to figure out how to build their own steam powered machinery. The ensuing years of realtive peace also allowed great progress in metalurgy. By the time construction of the Mainline of Middle Earth (as the B&G is nicknamed) was begun, high quality steel rails could be produced in vast quantities. Now iron horses also gallop across the grasslands of Rohan.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Modelling a railroad in Middle Earth allows me to use a blank canvas and a varied palette. For example:










At least one locomotive will have a very interesting source of fire.










The elves have almost all sailed into the West, but dwarves, hobbits, and men are abundant.










This warg is being shipped to the zoo at Minas Tirith. It's now an endangered species. Again, very few residents of Middle Earth are overly concerned about wargs becoming extinct.










There is nothing quite so pathetic as a homeless Nazgul!

Have fun with your railroad,
David Meashey


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Les,

To be honest I *can't *tell you how tight a curve it will take... I went into the shed and put it on a length of PECO SM32 and started bending!!! I had got it to a radius of 18 inches and the chairs on the sleepers were starting to show signs of distress -so I stopped. It takes the "normal" SM32 setcurve radius of 30 inches like it was on a straight. There are stories of the original when it cornered that the drivers could often see the INSIDE of the flanges...


The most difficult lokey that I have built is the Davidson 12 wheeler as this involved building the transfer gearbox. Mr David Fletcher had visited the only surviving Davidson, taken lots of photographs of it and fortunately some of them were of the transfer box. Similarly when I built the Hagans type "J" he shipped me a "few" photostats of the mechanism for it, and then some severe mind scrunching was required to make it work -just like the original... 


regards

ralph


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Vic, Ralph – you guys blow me away modelling these NZ rarities..

Only four of these 16 wheelers were ever built, two in 1912, two in 1913. They remained in service until around 1942 - 1951, although in the book I have there is no end of service date for one, just a listed transfer of 1947 to Charming Creek. That line closed in 1958.

Les, a quote from The Era of the Bush Tram in New Zealand:

“The Price 16 Wheeler was driven by a two cylinder vertical marine engine with a two speed transmission. It was designed to negotiate a 66 foot (20 metre) radius curve, and weighing 20 tonnes was larger than the Johnson. In the early 1920’s three of the Price 16 wheelers were replaced on line haulage by simpler faster lokeys, but were retained in service for working bush branches and bringing logs to an exchange point. The fourth slogging away in the Waione Siding tram had its wheels replaced with smaller ones to help it tackle numerous stiff grades, the worst being ¾ mile (1.2km) at 1 in 11½ .”

The Johnson was the basis of the apparently much improved Price version:

“Burnand persuaded Prices to build him a mechanically simplified 16 wheeler. The bogies had skew bevel gears based on the Climax A, thus eliminating 16 gears.”


Tom, some of the South Island ‘aint so bad either..











We walked the Charming Creek track last Nov. It follows the old rail line up a gorge, past Watsons timber mill then carries on along the flats to the coal mine at Charming Creek. The ties are still in place for most of it, with rail present on most of the run up the gorge.











Tunnel on the lower gorge.











A bit further up..











At top of the gorge they used a centre brake rail to help slow the descent.





















Rail tractors were also used for bringing loads out.











One has been partly restored, sitting in it gave a sense of how dodgy running these things would be!











One last shot of the track on the flats above Watsons Mill. Can you see Gollum in the bush to the left?









Cheers
Neil


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Wigginsn,

Les, a quote from The Era of the Bush Tram in New Zealand:

“The Price 16 Wheeler was driven by a two cylinder vertical marine engine with a two speed transmission. It was designed to negotiate a 66 foot (20 metre) radius curve, and weighing 20 tonnes was larger than the Johnson. In the early 1920’s three of the Price 16 wheelers were replaced on line haulage by simpler faster lokeys, but were retained in service for working bush branches and bringing logs to an exchange point. The fourth slogging away in the Waione Siding tram had its wheels replaced with smaller ones to help it tackle numerous stiff grades, the worst being ¾ mile (1.2km) at 1 in 11½ .” 
Thanks for posting the pixes and info. I should have phrased my question differently: in G gauge (45mm) what is the smallest radius one of those models will negotiate? My bust, sorry.

Les


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Les,

The one Vic built will take the R1 std 2 feet radius curves of LGB track. (I think that is the only radius he has).... My model is built to a larger scale than his. The only problem you really have with a Price 16 Wheeler is the reaction when it turns up on foreign rails. I took it to the annual "Open Day" at a club in Chesterfield and was politely asked to remove it from the tracks -so I plonked on the "Climax Clone"... This resembles a steam powered green house with chain drive. After this the Club Secretary asked me to remove all my models and equipment from the tracks as; "These sickening monstrosities were not the types of models that I would expect to see on the club track".

So, be warned unless you wish to lose you friends and family -don't built working models of NZ lokeys!!!


regards

ralph


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 01/18/2009 3:07 PM
Les,

The one Vic built will take the R1 std 2 feet radius curves of LGB track. (I think that is the only radius he has).... My model is built to a larger scale than his. The only problem you really have with a Price 16 Wheeler is the reaction when it turns up on foreign rails. I took it to the annual "Open Day" at a club in Chesterfield and was politely asked to remove it from the tracks -so I plonked on the "Climax Clone"... This resembles a steam powered green house with chain drive. After this the Club Secretary asked me to remove all my models and equipment from the tracks as; "These sickening monstrosities were not the types of models that I would expect to see on the club track".

So, be warned unless you wish to lose you friends and family -don't built working models of NZ lokeys!!!


regards

ralph




Ralph.
They sound like a typical bunch of elitist twits you often find in a lot of clubs.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

You run into a lot of xenophobia in clubs. You can break the ice with a few when you tell them that logging operations in Hungary and Romania ARE often as "*******" as they WERE here in the US. 

http://www.farrail.com/pages/touren-engl/romania-viseu-de-sus-2009-09.html 

....but they bulk don't want to even learn or care.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ralph,

That's a rather off-putting reception by a group. Apparently embedded ignorance is univesal.

I was politely invited to leave the Gn15 board, as I wasn't working in the scale they wanted. So I left. At that time I had no grasp of 'scale/gauge' considerations. Ah well. I came here instead. Much nicer, anyway.

At two ft radius, perhaps I can squeeze one in somewhere. Someday.

Thanks for taking a moment to reply.

Les


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