# Aristocraft live steam Mike



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I was up in New Hampshire and a guy with a train shop had one of these brand new in the metal case. Still in plastic wrap. He wanted $1,800. After talking with a friend who gave me some good advise, I stopped salivating. My question is why the plastic shell over a copper boiler which gets hot? I am sure those who have this have both pros and cons to say about it. 

On the other hand, the case was nice and I hope that Accucraft/AML does something like that for the live steam K4. I really hope they give us a better shipping container than the standard Accucraft red and black boxes.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I hope that Accucraft/AML does something like that for the live steam K4 
You'll be pleased to hear that Accucraft usually ships its live steamers in a heavy metal carry frame, packed in vast amounts of wrapping, inside the red box!


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, not pleased as I already knew that. Thanks though. I am talking a case like Aristocraft made for the mike. While I guess I could produce a case which would utilize that metal frame on wood base which the engine will probably be attached to, I would still have to make something for the tender. Not the end of the world, I like making things, but still for the price, it would be a nice thing to have. If it means prolonging production though, forget it, just give me a cardboard box.










For those interested, here is the website for that place up in New Hampshire. http://www.hartmannrr.com/


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

The Mikado's were sold out on a blow out sale for $699.99 on Thanksgiving weekend 2008. 
And now some one wants $1800.00....What a deal... 
I will stay with brass locomotives.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

No kidding Mark.

I was slightly interested until he mentioned the price. I figured if it was below 1,000 I would give it a shot since it was brand new. Then I found out the price and the fact that the shell is plastic and I looked the other way fast.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

Everyone discounts the Aristo Mikado because of the plastic shell. I'll admit they had some problems but with a bit of patience they make a nice loco. The "chassis" is of very high quality and they run excellent after the bugs are out. Here's mine pulling 19 freight cars equipt with Sierra Valley Steel wheel sets and it will do this for over 40 minutes on one boiler filling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igrB9Tgj9jA
This is another Aristo Mikado I converted to an Atlantic, running is the same as above except for a longer run time due to the larger drivers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NZpP3hqH-o


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's all kinds of little issues and mods to make, but for the $$ the Aristo LS Mike is a great deal. 

You can find all the "tips" on the Aristo and other forums... 

Greg


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is my Aristo Mikado from a couple of years ago pulling 29 hoppers, all with metal wheels, and half of the cars mostly filled with water for added weight. She is a good runner once you get the bugs worked out.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 02 Jan 2011 10:48 AM 
No kidding Mark.

I was slightly interested until he mentioned the price. I figured if it was below 1,000 I would give it a shot since it was brand new. Then I found out the price and the fact that the shell is plastic and I looked the other way fast. 



You want one for $1K brand new??? I have one that I'll let go for that (with that nice container you mentioned), plus shipping from 92705. My price (dealer cost) was $1,149 plus shipping. It's never been out of the box/wrapper. I'll even throw in an unopened bottle of steam oil.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

No, I am not looking for a mikado. Thanks for the offer though. 

By "below 1k", I was meaning in the range of $5-700 max.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well ya missed out as I bought a 2nd run Mike for $800 and brand new. Shop around you will find one eventually. Had a chance to buy the AC 0-4-0 for $450 but I'm not into the smaller locos. Later RJD


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah, I think I'll be saving all the pennies I have and get for the K4. I was more looking for a discussion about why aristo-craft would use a plastic shell on a live steam engine.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 02 Jan 2011 06:19 PM 
Yeah, I think I'll be saving all the pennies I have and get for the K4. I was more looking for a discussion about why aristo-craft would use a plastic shell on a live steam engine. 
For the same reason cars manufacturers such plastics because it is capable of doing the job. My wife's car manifold is plastic. In our world of live steam, we have used a "plastic" tea pot for heating water for a long time.

Here is a good overview:
http://www.zeusinc.com/UserFiles/zeusinc/Documents/Zeus_High_Temp.pdf

Lastly, the Aristo Mike a quite an air space between the boiler and the plastic shell. Then there is the factor of cost that makes it a viable option for steam locomotives having the characteristics of strength and endurance over time.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

That is a good straight up answer. Thanks Charles. I guess I never really thought about plastic that way. Still, I am with Mark. I think, for a live steam engine, I too would prefer brass over plastic.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Polycarbonate melts at ~513 degrees. The solder holding the brass together melts at ~370 degrees. A brass boiler would fall apart before a polycarbonate boiler would melt. And a polycarbonate boiler is more forgiving on the fingers when you grab for your engine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo locos have melted spots, and I doubt it's pure, quality polycarbonate. 

It's an inexpensive live steam loco that runs quite well after you tweak it with a few simple mods. 

Of course the melted spots may have been smokebox fires... 

Greg


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Toddalin, 
I guess it is pretty dumb for manufacturers to use brass and not polycarbanate on the majority of live steam locos then? 

I can see your point that the mikados are really not in danger of melting, but I have read similar things to what Greg wrote before about the Mikado. Well, I guess you can't win them all can you. Everything in life has its share of pros and cons.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Jan 2011 07:57 AM 
Toddalin, 
I guess it is pretty dumb for manufacturers to use brass and not polycarbanate on the majority of live steam locos then? 

Everything in life has its share of pros and cons. 


Stigma and tradition.


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## TrotFox (Feb 15, 2008)

The other thing that is nice about the polymer shell is that you can cast details right onto it. Aristo did it because they already had the molds for the shell. They just designed a live-steam mechanism to go under it! (I remember avidly reading the threads on their site as the mikado was being developed.)  

Trot, the memorable, fox...


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah, I guess that is what makes it unique too.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I didn't want to start a new topic, so here is to hoping someone who can answer this for me will see this post.

Can someone explain the difference between an adjustable safety valve and a pop valve or poppit valve? Is one preferable over the other and can one be interchanged with the other on a factory built live steam loco?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Jan 2011 07:36 PM 
I didn't want to start a new topic, so here is to hoping someone who can answer this for me will see this post.

Can someone explain the difference between an adjustable safety valve and a pop valve or poppit valve? Is one preferable over the other and can one be interchanged with the other on a factory built live steam loco?



An Adjustable Safety Valve is exactly what the name describes... it is a safety valve, i.e.: one that is designed to releave pressure so that an over pressure situation does not occur, being adjustable means the user can alter the pressure at which it activates. 
A Pop Valve is a specially designed safety valve that once activated, opens rapidly with a characteristic "POP" sound, rather than slowly opening. The Valve also has a hysterisis such that it opens rapidly at one pressure and remains open until the pressure drops some number of PSI below the opening value.

A Poppit valve is not a safety valve but a design of valve used in the cylinder to admit steam or release exhaust. It is similar to the valves in an automotive engine.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

A not so small clarification. 

The boilers on most small scale live steam locomotives are COPPER not brass. The "typical" LS engine has steel frames and brass for the external shell and cosmetic parts. Ryan and Charles can jump in and correct my oversimplification, but typical boilers are copper.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Jim,
Thanks, but I was very well aware that the boiler is copper with a brass jacket it over it. Since it is in the description of just about every single live steam engine I have ever seen, I just thought that it was a given that when talking about the boiler, I was talking about the jacket, not the actual boiler underneath. 

Semper, I see. Thanks. So the pop valve is not on top the boiler? Those safety valves on the Aster K4, for example, they are adjustable valves? thanks.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

The Aristo Mike was the only way I could afford to get into main line live steam. Most others cost 3-6 times as much as it was. Sure it has some problems, but they can be fixed. Just part of having live steam, you have to be willing to tinker with them, or it will be a shelf queen. I've had a lot of fun with mine and think it is worth it, if you can't afford the Aster/Accucraft ones. If you can afford those, that is great, but I can't.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Jerry, that is true. If you don't mind my asking, what did you pay for your Mike? Were you able to get it at the sale price? What mods have you done with yours to make it run better?


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 04 Jan 2011 04:27 AM 
Semper, I see. Thanks. So the pop valve is not on top the boiler? Those safety valves on the Aster K4, for example, they are adjustable valves? thanks. 


A pop valve is a type of safety valve, usually located on top of the boiler or on the steam dome or turret. A poppet (or poppit) valve is a completely different thing, as Charles explained. 

On the Aristo Mikados, the safety valve is located on top of the boiler, hidden under the sand dome. What's unusual about the Aristo safety valve is that the steam that is released through the safety is redirected into a horseshoe-shaped pipe that straddles the boiler and vents the steam down towards the track. Apparently this arrangement made the insurance lawyers happy, but on my engine it proved to be a choke point for the safety. When I replaced my non-working pressure gauge I realized that although the safety valve started venting steam around 45psi, the boiler pressure would keep climbing and I was routinely running at around 90psi. I guess it's no wonder my Mikado could pull pretty much everything I could find to put behind it! Some of us have reconfigured the safety valve pipes to release the steam upwards around the scale (dummy) safety valves. In the process I increased the diameter of the pipe, but it didn't solve my problem. However, if I run with the sand dome and safety valve cover off, the pressure stabilizes at 45. Most likely I'll end up adding a new bushing on top of the boiler at the scale safety valve location, and put a proper pop valve on it.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. I wonder if AML will have the safety valves in the actual location of the prototype safety valves. That is atop the firebox.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

All the Accucraft engines I've seen so far (including the AML ones) have the safety valve located so that it vents directly into the air in the correct prototypical location. Usually it's inside the steam dome, venting through a hole in the top of the dome right next to the dummy scale safety valves, giving the illusion (more or less) that the steam is coming from the scale safeties instead of the much larger working one hidden below.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see, so is it a matter of size then? I may be mistaken, but the prototype safety valves on Aster's K4 was where the steam was coming from. Now, I know this AML will be no Aster, but being 1:29 scale, I would say if Aster could make them weep out of the prototypical valves then AML could certainly do it.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

These engines use polycarbonites for one simple reason: it's inexpensive to make and more affordable to buy. That's it, no other reason. A live steam Mike for ~ $1000 is a Yugo. There is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. Lots of people are into live steam thanks to these affordable engines, and have a great time in a wonderful hobby. Thier engines go, go go. Sour grapes happen when folks complain about these machines. If you want a Porsche, you 'gotta put down the money. If you want to race at Daytona, you have to scratchbuild or have someone make a custom model for you. That applies to sparkies too.

Polycarbonate may melt at about 510F, don't think that shell is bulletproof. Pot metal melts at about 800F. If you aren't careful, you can vaporize the front truck on an Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay. This ain't my engine. (Gee whiz, I figured they would be made from brass)


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

toddalin' The silver brazing solders used to assemble the small scale boilers has a Hi-temp range between [/b]1125' F to 1370' F.[/b] I have repaired or modified several Aristo boilers & they are very well built. The back head & front sheet are .080" thick and the outer shell is .060" thick, all fittings are bushed and the entire assembly is all silver brazed. The boiler below is being shortened from Mikado length to Atlantic length.









[/b]


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

*The problem with the front truck melting on the Shays can easily be cured with the addition of a 50 cent brass shield. Held on with one screw to the front cross member. No mine did not melt, I installed the shield when I received it due to rumors of trucks melting.*


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Iceclimber- I bought mine after the first run, but before they got marked down much. $1200 is what I paid. Mods I made are over on the Aristo web site forums. Go to the steam forum and look back, or do a search. I did write up some firing instructions for it that I posted on that forum. I can email them to you, if you email me, so I have your address. Mods were a steam line to heat the water bath, increasing the safety pressure, safety blows on top(thanks to Larry Herget!), stronger spring on the front truck, Roundhouse #6 jet. You can see videos of it over on youTube. gunjeep444 is my name there. Can see them, on this rotary snow plow link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO4Tv6_QF6A


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Iceclimer: The last Aristo Mike I bought ( 2nd Gen) I picked up for $800. I now have two of them and have made most of the mods that Jerry has done. They are good runners. Later RJD


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

Larry, 

Have you posted pictures of your Mike to Atlantic conversion?? I sure would like to see a few! 
Mike McCormack 
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike McCormack' Mike I have placed photos & a short Video in your E-mail in-box.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a sweet running engine and looks great also!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 02 Jan 2011 07:17 AM 
I hope that Accucraft/AML does something like that for the live steam K4
You'll be pleased to hear that Accucraft usually ships its live steamers in a heavy metal carry frame, packed in vast amounts of wrapping, inside the red box! 

Aristocraft hard carrying case looks great but it houses a plastic loco. 

I'll trade the case for cardboard to have an all metal loco. Detail is well above the Aristocraft. Knowing the electric K4 the steam one will be well worth it. Just the wrong scale!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

My case is out in the barn someplace. Pretty useless.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Scale? Are you serious? There is no other live steam offering of a K4. The aster K4 has problems if you didn't get the second boiler. 1:29th? Are you really that picky? Unless you have a whole layout and all the figures/buildings are scaled to 1:32, who cares? Like you said, if anything like the k4 electric, it will be a BEAUTIFUL engine. The detail looks amazing. For me, I don't care about the scale. 

At the end of the day, no matter what way you look at it, these things are toys. I don't care if you are are 10 or 100. They are toys. They are a hobby. How many people buy a motorcycle and then say, well, it isn't the right scale. There are all sizes of engines and shapes. Some like this and some like that. If all I had were 1:29th aristo reefers, why would I buy a 1:32 engine to pull them and vice versa? Hey, I may be new to all this, but this is the way I look at it. I have on order an AML K4. If Aster was still making the K4, I would go for it, but they are not. I am told that the boiler for the Aster K4s had problems and the 2nd run of boilers are no longer available, so unless they guy that had a used Aster K4 for sale was my Uncle, I wouldn't trust them enough to fork out that kind of cash to only wonder if the boiler in my newly acquired used Aster was 1st or 2nd generation. So, the best I have is the AML 1:29th scale K4. Why, because I grew up in Western PA near Altoona which had the largest repair shop for the railroad during the K4s lifespan. It is a personal favorite of mine. 


So, I wouldn't care if it was made in 1:20 narrow gauge. I would still get it.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 05 Jan 2011 08:11 PM 
Scale? Are you serious? There is no other live steam offering of a K4. The aster K4 has problems if you didn't get the second boiler. 1:29th? Are you really that picky? Unless you have a whole layout and all the figures/buildings are scaled to 1:32, who cares? Like you said, if anything like the k4 electric, it will be a BEAUTIFUL engine. The detail looks amazing. For me, I don't care about the scale. 

At the end of the day, no matter what way you look at it, these things are toys. I don't care if you are are 10 or 100. They are toys. They are a hobby. How many people buy a motorcycle and then say, well, it isn't the right scale. There are all sizes of engines and shapes. Some like this and some like that. If all I had were 1:29th aristo reefers, why would I buy a 1:32 engine to pull them and vice versa? Hey, I may be new to all this, but this is the way I look at it. I have on order an AML K4. If Aster was still making the K4, I would go for it, but they are not. I am told that the boiler for the Aster K4s had problems and the 2nd run of boilers are no longer available, so unless they guy that had a used Aster K4 for sale was my Uncle, I wouldn't trust them enough to fork out that kind of cash to only wonder if the boiler in my newly acquired used Aster was 1st or 2nd generation. So, the best I have is the AML 1:29th scale K4. Why, because I grew up in Western PA near Altoona which had the largest repair shop for the railroad during the K4s lifespan. It is a personal favorite of mine. 


So, I wouldn't care if it was made in 1:20 narrow gauge. I would still get it. 

Iceclimber....
"So, I wouldn't care if it was made in 1:20 narrow gauge." Are you so sure about that? Have you ever seen the size of an Fn3 standard gauge locomotive (there are a few threads on MLS of a builder check it out)? Then there is the need for track spacing that would only be useful for that particular locomotive relative to other items and trains in and around the locomotive on a particular layout (probably not your nearest hobby friends track):

F Scale 2-6-6-0 


As to the Aster K4, if the boiler was a truly critical issue most owners would dump them onto the market. I have operated them (own 3 throughout the years) for many years along with others, only once was there an incident of a failed boiler (flue collapse). So, those out there reading about the potential issues with regards to purchasing an Aster K4 you can make an informed decision (IMHO Aster K4 with the true scale and fully working valve setup is and will be the best choice).


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If the price was right, I would jump on an opportunity to own an Aster K4. Are you saying that in order to run a live steam in 1:20 scale like the Mason Bogie, one needs a different track than what is used for a live steam in 1:32? I just figured all gauge 1 models used the same track which is 45mm. I am a bit confused.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the way I am understanding this whole scale difference is, that at 1:32, the engine is scale to the size of track being used. i.e. the width of the axle fits perfectly with 45mm gauge and the engine looks as it should. 1:29, the engine's wheel axle width fits with the 45mm track, but the engine looks slightly wider than prototypical. With 1:20, the engine still runs on 45mm track, but it looks even wider? 


I do not want to give the impression that those who only model in 1:32 scale are wrong. BTW, here is a new video of an Aster K4 running.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqs8NAwCcXc


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 06 Jan 2011 12:17 PM 
Are you saying that in order to run a live steam in 1:20 scale like the Mason Bogie, one needs a different track than what is used for a live steam in 1:32?


No, but if you took a large standard gauge engine like a Pennsy K4, scaled it up to 1:20.3 scale, then spaced the wheels down to narrow gauge to run on 45mm track, you would be talking about a monster-sized engine with all kinds of clearance issues when it comes to adjacent tracks, bridges, tunnels, etc.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. So, with tunnels, bridges and things like that, the bigger scale the engine is compared to the scale being modeled is what makes the difference? On an oval raised track which only has track and no decor, the only difference noticed would be if pulling differently scaled rolling stock?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 06 Jan 2011 12:17 PM 
If the price was right, I would jump on an opportunity to own an Aster K4. Are you saying that in order to run a live steam in 1:20 scale like the Mason Bogie, one needs a different track than what is used for a live steam in 1:32? I just figured all gauge 1 models used the same track which is 45mm. I am a bit confused.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the way I am understanding this whole scale difference is, that at 1:32, the engine is scale to the size of track being used. i.e. the width of the axle fits perfectly with 45mm gauge and the engine looks as it should. 1:29, the engine's wheel axle width fits with the 45mm track, but the engine looks slightly wider than prototypical. With 1:20, the engine still runs on 45mm track, but it looks even wider? 


I do not want to give the impression that those who only model in 1:32 scale are wrong. BTW, here is a new video of an Aster K4 running.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqs8NAwCcXc 
Not being rude, but did you open the link to the F Scale model? If so, then one might re-think scale as having some significance in making a decision about what one purchases. In particular regarding your statement about a 1:20 Standard gauge K4 for many practical considerations....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 06 Jan 2011 12:29 PM 
I see. So, with tunnels, bridges and things like that, the bigger scale the engine is compared to the scale being modeled is what makes the difference? On an oval raised track which only has track and no decor, the only difference noticed would be if pulling differently scaled rolling stock? No, you have to consider switches, spacing between tracks, turnouts, curve radius. etc.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Most "G scale" equipment (1:22.5 to 1:29) scale is more or less the same size because the larger scale of the narrow gauge equipment is offset by the smaller size of the prototype. Correctly scaled "Fn3" (1:20.3 scale) narrow gauge equipment is about 10% larger than its 1:22.5 equivalent, while correctly scaled 1:32 scale equipment is about 10% smaller than its 1:29 equivalent (lengths will also vary because 1:20.3 and 1:32 equipment is typically built to scale, while a lot of G scale stuff is selectively compressed to fit around much-tighter-than-scale curves). It adds up to a very noticeable difference in size between 1:32 and 1:20.3 equipment. Most layouts designed for live steam are built to accommodate 1:20.3 trains, and the 1:32 stuff will have no problem running on these. On the other hand, if you build a layout that strictly follows prototype practice as far as spacing of multi-track mainlines, sidings, bridges, tunnels, and other lineside structures in a scale of 1:32, a lot of the larger scale stuff is going to run into trouble.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I was more or less joking about the K4 in 1:20. I see how that would not work so well. Yes, I did open the link you provided. Thanks, it will be fun to go through it more in depth at a later time. I always enjoy reading building logs like that.

I also can see the point where you have two tracks side by side and if the spacing is not built to accommodate different scales being run, then there could be some nasty consequences if two varying scales of engines met up with one another.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Follow up of 4-8-4 Fn3 scale standard gauge locomotive:


Fn3 Standard Gauge


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