# Steam oil



## robroy (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi from Oz.My wife & I have a live steam museum, where we run stationary engines, both vertical & horizontal, the display is for demo. only. Boiler pressure is anything from 20psi to 40psi. We have been using a commerical steam oil for most engines, which emulsifies in the displacement lubricators. For our oldest engine, 1842, we have been using hydraulic oil, SAE80, it mixes with the steam, goes to each end of the cylinder & condences out from the exhaust steam. Very tidy, of course steam below 100psi is saturated steam & itself becomes a lubricant. Now we also have 7 Accurcraft live steamers, what steam oil do members use? Has anyone tried hydraulic oil? At about $90 a 20 litre drum it beats the drops most model suppliers give. Our old relic, after 10 years of use, 2 days per month, the cylinder is polished as is also the D-value. We readily agree that at pressures above 50psi things may not work as well, we note that hydraulic oil DOES NOT emulsifiy. As our relic is ancient cast iron we may be able to get away with something that will not work on softer metals. We would welcome comments. robroy.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Robroy, I take it from your use of "Oz" that you are here in Australia, but where in Australia?
I live in the Wollongong area in NSW and have run 5" gauge and Small Scale locos for the last ten/twelve years and have always used Steam Oil in all loco's. 460 grade and lighter in the small locos and 600 grade in the 5".
You can send me a personal email if you wish any further info.


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

go to live steam search type in steam oil 

this subject has been covered like a greased pig (pardon the pun!!) 

.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

AH!!!!! This is one of our favorate subjects. You will probably get many opinions on this. 

My opinion is that you should use Roundhouse http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/ steam oil or Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil http://www.steamenginelube.com/ . The Green Velvet folks are in the process of changing their operation.

Most dealers small scale live steam probably have one of these oils in stock or can get them for you. 

You might want to look at: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/...cators.htm . Another page for you to look at is http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/reference.htm scroll down on this one to get "truth about steam oils" 

I hope you enjoy reading what everyone else has to say and that you are able to make sense out of it.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Robroy, 
Museum, stationary engines, plus Accucraft locos..sounds like Turon Museum on the Sofala rd.. went past last month on the way to mudgee..Stay with Steam oil in the Locos,, they are piston valves and depend on the seal from the oil film , for which nice tallowy steam oil with viscocity around 460-600.. shell valvata 460 works fine. 

Gordon.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

ok, I have a question along simular lines. 

I have an incredible steam plant model consisting of a Stuart boiler, Beam Engine, a single cylinder horizontal engine, a double cylinder launch engine and a steam pump to fill the boiler when needed. 

It is a work of art, and I've been toying with the idea of loaning it to a museum or something so it can be more appreciated. So here is my question: 

If this were to be hooked up to run as a display on air, what steps need to be taken to preserve the cylinders, since there woiuldn't be any steam to heat the oil.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By robroy on 02 Dec 2009 10:17 PM 
of course steam below 100psi is saturated steam 


The fact that it is below 100 psi is irrelevant as to whether or not it is saturated. All steam, at any pressure, is going to be saturated unless it has been superheated. You could superheat steam that is at 20 psi if you wanted to.


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CapeCodSteam on 03 Dec 2009 04:13 PM 
ok, I have a question along simular lines. 

I have an incredible steam plant model consisting of a Stuart boiler, Beam Engine, a single cylinder horizontal engine, a double cylinder launch engine and a steam pump to fill the boiler when needed. 

It is a work of art, and I've been toying with the idea of loaning it to a museum or something so it can be more appreciated. So here is my question: 

If this were to be hooked up to run as a display on air, what steps need to be taken to preserve the cylinders, since there woiuldn't be any steam to heat the oil. If the engine is to be run on Air you must treat it as a Air tool. You can buy a FRL unit (Filter Regulator Lubricator) from places that sell Air tools. You want to plumb it up so it does not run through the Boiler only the engines. You also have to insure that the other moving parts are going to be properly lubricated. i would be very leery of loaning it out until you know that it will be properly maintained. I have seen and helped repair some museum exhibits that were run until they were practically destroyed due to poor understanding of the museum staff, ie If its running a bit slow just increase the air pressure, it was oiled a year ago. Most staff have no technical/mechanical training.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Im thinking saturated steam pressure is directly proportional to temperature. Superheated steam is saturated steam with added heat above the saturation point. So I'm going to think on it a bit, but it seems likely that superheated steam is not available at every normal pressure. For example, the pressure might have to be very low for the temperature to be 70 F. Or alternatively, your steamer might have to be on top of Mt. Everest. 
So superheating steam at 20 psi is probably not as simple as you may think. 
Anyway, its something to think on and will again send me back to my college texts.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes John so true. 

There is only one steam pressure and one steam temperature attached to that pressure. Call this the steam saturation curve.

As an example, 100 psig will have a saturated temperature of 338F. Any temperature higher for this pressure is "superheat" and water in the liquid form can not exist. Any temperature lower.... steam can not exist.... only water. 

So.... water can exist @ 100 psi as long as the temperature is less than 338F. 


To have superheat one must "hold" the saturated steam for a period and add additional heat like one would do in a superheater in a boiler. Do we have this configuration in our live steam locomotives? 



When I refer to the steam tables: 

20 psi saturated steam has a defined temperature of 259F or a total of 1166 Btu of total heat or "energy". Any temperature above this is "superheated". Water in a liquid form can not exist. 

Catcher: In absolute vacuum: (Space station stuff) Water boils at 134F and as such can not exist as a liquid at -25 psiG. or 0 ABS. 


Confused? Don't worry, I think that all trains do not care about btu content however clean saturated steam makes all the difference in the proper operation of any locomotive. My thought is that wet steam does not help locomotive efficiency. 

gg


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

John, 
You're correct on your definition of saturated steam and understanding of superheating, but I don't understand where you came up with the 70°F figure. As GG points out, boiling point of water at 20psi is 259°F, so heating the steam to anything higher than that is superheating it. Superheating has to be done after the steam leaves the steam dome or steam drum, i.e., not in contact with the water. 

GG, 
When you say "all trains", are you including full-size locomotives? With them, BTU content is indeed a factor. Superheating is a way to add more energy to the steam so that you can extract more energy (=work) from it in the expansion stage before you get condensation and to increase efficiency. Many 20th century steam locomotives had superheaters. 
If you're talking just about model live steam locos, I don't know of any mass-produced models with superheaters, but I'm a relative newbie in this sub-field. I would think that the same factors that apply to the prototype are still true, but it's just not important enough to justify the added complexity.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"If you're talking just about model live steam locos, I don't know of any mass-produced models with superheaters, but I'm a relative newbie in this sub-field. I would think that the same factors that apply to the prototype are still true, but it's just not important enough to justify the added complexity."

Jim
There are quite a few gauge one models with superheater setup. As to if it justified to add that complexity. At one point working on Accucraft AC-12 we had removed a superheater from one of the two engines and ran with saturated steam on that engine with the other engine on the locomotive running superheater. Without a doubt the saturated steam engine was being pulled along for the ride with the superheated powered engine out performing it.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim - I used 70 F because that is room temperature, or close enough anyway. Without a fire, the boiler is probably about that warm, which sets the lower limit of the pressure in the boiler, and so by definition the lower limit on pressure. 

So again, can you have superheated steam at 20 psi? Probably not in any amount that would power your locomotive.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

WATER LUBRICATION









Back in the days that I had a full size steam boat, we mainly used water as lubrication. The water comes from the lowering of temperature as the steam leaves the boiler and condenses in the system. The engine on my steamboat was a compound with a 5 inch cylinder and a 3 inch cylinder. 
All of the "captains" I knew would give the engine a squirt of steam oil first thing in the morning when the engine was still cold iron and then let the water do the job once they got underway. A second squirt was used when shutting down the engine for the day. Some of the engines were closed loop. The water was condenced after passing through the engine ane retlurned to the boiler. This meant that any steam oil had to be removed from the return water before going back into the boiler. 

A couple of the boats had engines that had been operated using water for lubrication in open loop systems for over 100 years. My boat had a new engine.








So----no matter what the scince may say----water does work as a lubricant.
















Of course, my small scale live steamers are all run with steam oil going to the cylinders any time they are in operation. I use steam oil per the recommendation of Roundhouse-Engineering, that is either Roundhouse oil or Green Velvet. You can use heaver steam oil but run the risk of it crystalizing and cloging steam pipes.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 04 Dec 2009 07:35 AM 







WATER LUBRICATION









Back in the days that I had a full size steam boat, we mainly used water as lubrication. The water comes from the lowering of temperature as the steam leaves the boiler and condenses in the system. The engine on my steamboat was a compound with a 5 inch cylinder and a 3 inch cylinder. 
All of the "captains" I knew would give the engine a squirt of steam oil first thing in the morning when the engine was still cold iron and then let the water do the job once they got underway. A second squirt was used when shutting down the engine for the day. Some of the engines were closed loop. The water was condenced after passing through the engine ane retlurned to the boiler. This meant that any steam oil had to be removed from the return water before going back into the boiler. 

A couple of the boats had engines that had been operated using water for lubrication in open loop systems for over 100 years. My boat had a new engine.








So----no matter what the science may say----water does work as a lubricant.
















Of course, my small scale live steamers are all run with steam oil going to the cylinders any time they are in operation. I use steam oil per the recommendation of Roundhouse-Engineering, that is either Roundhouse oil or Green Velvet. You can use heaver steam oil but run the risk of it crystalizing and cloging steam pipes.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Charles, 
Thanks for the info on model locos with superheaters. Yes, I can imagine that something like an AC-12 would benefit from superheating. 

John, 
I think you are thinking backwards (or something) about superheating. The lower limit of temperature, for steam at any given pressure, is the saturation temperature. At 20 psi, that is 259°F (I'm trusting GG's figure here). Below that temperature, you get condensation. Above it, the steam is superheated. You could superheat the 20 psi steam to 400°F if you wanted, for example, thereby increasing its energy. 
If you are thinking about the pressure of saturated steam at 70°F, it's darn low, way below atmospheric. But that doesn't have anything to do with superheating at 20 psi. 

Here's a cool online calculator I found for saturated steam properties: http://www.spiraxsarco.com/esc/SS_Properties.aspx


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By RimfireJim on 04 Dec 2009 03:56 PM 
Charles, 
Thanks for the info on model locos with superheaters. Yes, I can imagine that something like an AC-12 would benefit from superheating. 

John, 
I think you are thinking backwards (or something) about superheating. The lower limit of temperature, for steam at any given pressure, is the saturation temperature. At 20 psi, that is 259°F (I'm trusting GG's figure here). Below that temperature, you get condensation. Above it, the steam is superheated. You could superheat the 20 psi steam to 400°F if you wanted, for example, thereby increasing its energy. 
If you are thinking about the pressure of saturated steam at 70°F, it's darn low, way below atmospheric. But that doesn't have anything to do with superheating at 20 psi. 

Here's a cool online calculator I found for saturated steam properties: http://www.spiraxsarco.com/esc/SS_Properties.aspx 



Yes, Spirax Sarco is the Company I work for. The info is good. I have a slide on the additional Btu's per pound for superheated steam. 100 psi steam superheated to 360F will cool to 338F before it condenses into condensate or effectively "hot water" @ 100 psi. The amount of Btu's given up per pound of steam as it cools in the superheated state from 360 to 338F (saturated) is only 11.22 Btu's per pound. Cool the steam below 338F @ 100 psi and all of it will collapse and a phenominal 880 Btu's per pound of heat energy will be released. 


Thus the advantages of the use of steam as a heat transfer medium in the Process Industries. 


Going back to the advantages of superheated steam in locomotives I stand to correct myself and agree that superheated steam use in a locomotive is an advantage as the steam can move in a superheated state from the point of generation (boiler) through the locomotive's distribution system to point of use (pistons) and not loose enough heat to the point where the steam condenses into condensate or hot water. 



More information is available at www.spiraxsarco.com/ca Look for our Open University where you can really "steam it up" .. 
Optionally: www.snapfour.com where you can find all the engineering tools used around steam including sizing your locomotive steam distribution system...


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam "in the boiler" can never be hotter than the water that is under it. The fire is heating the water and when it is hot enough it bubbles to the top as a gas (steam). The steam is always at the same temperature as the water... unless it is passed through a pipe that is in contact with the fire, then the steam can absorb more heat and be elevated in temperature. 

Many small (toy) locomotives have a sort of super heater. The steam take-off point usually feeds back to the boiler backhead in the cab, where the throttle is, the steam, upon exiting the throttle, has to pass back to the front of the engine and on many of them it does so by passing through the flue where the poker (gas) burner is located. Thus, this steam has an opportunity to absorb more heat and become "super heated". 

Real locos have the throttle either in the steam dome or in the smoke box with a long rod from the cab to the valve and a pipe directly from the throttle to the steam chests at the power cylinders. 

Dome mounted throttle engines usually do not have superheaters because it would leave the superheater pipes dry when the throttle is shut off. 

Smoke box mounted throttles are usually there to regulate the passage of steam from the superheater to the cylinders; shorter pipes from the throttle to the engine and with the throttle on the exit of the superheater means the superheater pipes have steam in them all the time and that reduces the possiblilty of melting the superheater pipes.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Good to hear from you Semper.... trust all is well with your errant locos. 

Yes, saturated steam is produced in the boiler and there are two options available: On departure from the crown valve, pass the steam through a separator and then off to the process realizing full well that radiation losses will condense out some of that steam being produced or alternately, cycle the steam through a superheater to add additional heat. By doing this one is assured of no moisture or condensation as the steam makes its journey to its intended point of use. 


Now to add some "heat". I propose that with the use of superheated steam, there is no "lubricating" moisture in a locomotive thus the need for "steam Oil" ? 

Am I errant here? 

gg


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey, GG, that's quite a coincidence (about Spirax Sarco). I just grabbed that site off of Google rather than cracking my thermodynamics textbook, finding the right table, and converting the units from SI. 

Yeah, too bad there isn't a way to capture all that latent heat of condensation, instead of sending it up the stack (steam loco) or transferring it to cooling water in a condenser (closed cycle systems). 

I suspect you're 100% correct about needing oil lubrication with superheated steam.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I suspect Jim that the logic is correct. The thing is with trains and locomotives.... are we actually using the latent heat of vaporization here in a steam locomotive to drive the wheels or simply a "gas" that can easily be generated via locally and readily available resources ( coal, wood and water in a boiler ) to drive the prime mover? 


gg


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## robroy (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Gordon, you must be a retired detective or my publicity campaign has worked much better than I thought. Next time you are passing call in for a chat. The chance to talk to people with similar interests is something to be cherished. Must say I have enjoyed reading the responces to my query, some informative ,others quite funny.I have down-loaded the item by Harry Wade, how about Mobil 600 W ISO 375? What pressure & temp does your locos run at? Or like me do you only have gauge one steamers? The museam web site, soon to be upgraded, is www.turontechnologymuseum.com, the railway site is www.kurremigardenrailway.com.au, have a look see.
Jim


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## robroy (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi ,by your nick name I take it that you have a live steam Shay? I am at Sofala, north,see my response to Taperpin for web sites etc. At what temp & pressure does your 5 inch gauge run? Must say that every one has been very helpful, thanks
Jim PS I have an Accucraft 2 truck live steamer.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By GG on 04 Dec 2009 08:17 PM 
I suspect Jim that the logic is correct. The thing is with trains and locomotives.... are we actually using the latent heat of vaporization here in a steam locomotive to drive the wheels or simply a "gas" that can easily be generated via locally and readily available resources ( coal, wood and water in a boiler ) to drive the prime mover? 


gg 


No, we're not using the latent heat of vaporization. That would require condensing it and using the heat given off as it condenses. We try to do just the opposite, i.e., keep it from condensing before it goes up the stack. We use the energy that is available from expanding the gas from a high pressure to a lower pressure. That's why they will also run on compressed air. Superheating puts more energy into the gas, ergo more energy can be extracted to be converted into useful work.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Jim Hi, 
Not a ex detective.. but I had heard that there was someone around sofala, with an Accucraft shay.and we where travelling to a reunion in Mudgee with childhood mates /wives..passed the Turon Mechnical Museum on the Ilford side . and guessed that had to be where it was. The local Paper confirmed it later! we had driven up from Clematis [dandenongs] 
incidentally I had never seen so many Roos as on that stretch along the dam on the way in to Mudgee great gobbets of meat all over the road! you wouldnt want to do it after dusk. 
our website is www.argyleloco.com.au 

Gordon 

ps Modiil is fine and the 600 grade is good with piston valves helps to seal them.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By robroy on 06 Dec 2009 04:36 PM 
Hi Gordon, you must be a retired detective or my publicity campaign has worked much better than I thought. Next time you are passing call in for a chat. The chance to talk to people with similar interests is something to be cherished. Must say I have enjoyed reading the responces to my query, some informative ,others quite funny.I have down-loaded the item by Harry Wade, how about Mobil 600 W ISO 375? What pressure & temp does your locos run at? Or like me do you only have gauge one steamers? The museam web site, soon to be upgraded, is www.turontechnologymuseum.com, the railway site is www.kurremigardenrailway.com.au, have a look see.
Jim

Jim:
There is an error in Harry Wade's article's table, The Truth About Steam Oil. The footnote states, "* ² Flash Point in °F.*" The temperatures listed are actually Degrees Centigrade (per all the manufacturer's specifications). This applies to the table in both Harry's original SitG article and Southern Steam Trains Reference article. I.e., 60psi saturated steam temperature is ~295 F; Flash point 282 "F" or 282C = 540F?


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