# Bachmann K-27 with QSI install



## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I recently purchased a Bachmann K-27 and will be installing a QSI Quantum decoder in the tender. Has anyone had experience with this an have some documentation that they can share. 










This the newer version with roller pickups and I will supply pictures here as I conduct the install and trials. I am using a MRC 10amp throttle with a TE for sound control.


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## blattan (Jan 4, 2008)

This is an easy install. Go to the Bachmann website and click on Product Reference>Product Manuals>K-27 Locomotive Manuals>Sound and Control Products. Scroll down toward the bottom of the page to find several links, including one for QSI Solutions Install. That link will take you to a pdf that describes the install. I used the automatic chuff sychronization It works quite well. When I temporarily removed the Bachmann socket to install the speaker, I broke two of the posts holding the board due to over-tight screws from the factory. I reattached the posts with ACC. 

Bert


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## 6323 (Jan 17, 2008)

I installed the QSI PnP decoder in my K-27 about a month ago. 
Although, I'm running Digitrax DCC, I had to major operation problems. 
Only problem I had, was with the headlight being reversed. That is, On when locomotive was in reverse, and Off when forward. 
Kevin Strong, from the board, helped me with reprogramming issues, since I do NOT have the QSI programmer. Yet. 
Overall, I'm quite happy with my locomotive and sound.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That underscores the need to order the board with the K-27 file already installed, QSI has reprogrammed that particular file to reverse the standard light settings so it will just "plug and play". 

To set/calibrate the autochuff though, you will need the programmer, or find a friend with DCC to program it. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I just noticed that there is no speaker inside the tender. What is the best speaker I can put inside and where do I get them from?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A Phoenix speaker is good. 

I have always found my speakers from Jonathan at Electric Steam Modelworks... here is a link to the page with speakers (scroll down)

http://www.rctrains.com/phoenix_sound_system.htm*[url]http://www.rctrains.com/phoenix_sound_system.htm* [/url]

Also, Jonathan is a professional audio "guy" so you could email him directly what he thinks would be best, he also does installs on exactly what you are doing.

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. Looks like they have a good selection. I am going to see if I can find something in our local electronic stores first before I start paying for shipping but it is nice to see the choices and what works. I really would like to get the best sound possible on this engine as it is my pride and joy.

Bachman K-27 Modifications


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Go armed with the max dimensions you can fit. 

It's hard to find high performance features in a 3-4" speaker in the stores... you either find the smaller iPod stuff, or larger home speakers. 

Your focus should probably be on bass reproduction, are you going to have the speaker pointing down or up? 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

The speaker pointing up with holes in the coal would probably be more effective but the speaker vents are on the bottom at the moment. 

trying to find a speaker that has good base with out being able to hear them play before installing them will not be easy, this is why I ask those of you that have experienced the difference. 

How high of watt can I go that the QSI sound card can effectively drive. Most speakers for trains seem to be around 0.5w but if I put a 2w inside the question of weather it will sound good or not is raised.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I do know a bit about audio. 

There is no limit to the "wattage" of the sepaker used, the wattage rating of the speaker tells you how much power it can "handle", basically without severe distortion or more often, heating of the voice coil and having the glue melt and the voice coil short and burn up. 

The QSI puts out about a watt, so virtually any speaker will "handle" it's power output. I would want a 2 watt or above. 

What really affects sound "volume" is the "sensitivity" of the speaker, i.e. for a fixed power input, how many dB of sound does it produce. This is usually something in the 90 db category. Unfortunately, while component speakers are rated this way, our "hobby" speakers rarely are. 

One somewhat reasonable indicator is the size of the magnet enclosure. To a point, a larger magnet will give you a more efficient speaker, and thus more volume. But it's not always true, and there are cases of physically large magnets that are crap, and cheap and weak, but made large to impress. 

One easy way to tell the bass capacity of a speaker is tap the cone with your finger, while holding the speaker to your ear. A deep dull thud will mean more bass than a tinny "Twink"... try it yourself on the cone of a good woofer in a stereo, vs. a cheap 3" speaker like in an Aristo loco (sorry Aristo, they ARE cheap!). 

Another way to tell is the "surround", that is the circular "spring" between the moving cone and the speaker frame. The best thing is a butyl rubber one, which gives longer throw of the cone (more bass). Just a couple of folds of paper won't give you enough travel... you can also try to move the cone up and down and see the travel it can make, more travel, more bass. 

Those are some quick and easy ways to find a good speaker if you can get your mitts on them. 

Hope this helped, 

Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

After spending days searching for speakers with no luck other than the cheap old 0.5w speakers I decided to go with 3w to 5w from Litchfield Station. I have to say that Litchfield Station has on more than one occasion done a great job providing me with what I need in a professional manor. 









This innovative speaker offers solid bass and high power handling capacity when compared to similarly sized speakers. The cost of this added performance is that it is deeper than most! Its specifications are: [*]Size [*]57 mm in diameter x 27.2 mm deep [*]2.25 inches in diameter x 1.04 inches deep [/list] [*]Impedance is 8 ohms [*]Power rating is 3 watts operating and 5 watts maximum [*]Sound Pressure Level is NOT SPECIFIED [*]Frequency response is from 450 Hz to 20KHz [/list] This speaker is equivalent to Tony's HP225R.


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Actualy guys, the QSI puts out 3 Watts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, according to the QSI site, it says 5 watts, but who's counting.

Most of these numbers are not really accurately measured.

Read down to the specifications page: *http://www.qsisolutions....trong>**

Regards, Greg*


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Sorry Greg, 

That's peak, not RMS


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, you can be completely sure that the numbers advertised are peak, and few people know enough to ask for RMS... kind of like the old stereo amp "power wars", where there was peak, average, rms, etc. 

So I ignore the "ratings", although there are some new sound systems with class D amplifiers, which hold the promise of better sound for us, I believe. 


Unless you are using an inverter to get higher voltages, you are pretty limited by the track voltage on the real power. Good thing about G is that it's higher than 12 volts, so that helps. 

But I find that the harmonic distortion is so high in most model train amps, and the frequency range restricted, and limitations in the sound file sampling rate, that the biggest difference between them all is the speaker "quality" and making an appropriate sealed enclosure of the proper volume. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

I couldn't agree more. Sound quality is one of the reasons that I use QSI. The new sound files are recorded in 32 bit at 44,100 over sampeling. The new recorder will go even highr than that but we don't need that just yet. 

Also, I think I taked to you on the phone a few months back. Do you remember me calling you about your site? 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lee, I'm afraid I must claim ignorance or senility! 

I do get a lot of emails and calls. 

I have to apologize again. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. the latest files, the 7-32-1 and the programmer with the selectable compression, is this where a change occurred? I recently updated several locos and the sound is even better, my best description to my friends is the sounds were more "detailed".


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Actualy Greg, 

 Gerry upgrades the software so much that I can't keep up with him half the time. Between writeing requirment, traveling to shows, and recording locomotives I have a hard time learning all the new changes. Things are happening fast, and this is just the begenning. The best is yet to come, and you won't beleave it when you see it. I can't wait. I'll send you one of the new lighting boards when they come out. The board will work with the QSI. I'm also try to get John at TCS to do another board for me like the FL4, but for G. I like working with him, becaue he understands what I'm saying, and is very flexable in his designs. You couldn't ask for a better company to build function decoders. 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great, I have a couple I bought to use in conjunction with my QSI's but it's great news for DCC. 

Navy Tech, sorry for derailing your thread, but this is good stuff that will benefit your install also! 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

GO NAVY!!! 

Hey Navy guy. Get the biggest Extra Bass speaker that you can fit into your tender, and have it face down. Mount it with good tight screws, and make sure that it has plenty of holes under the speaker for the sound to get out. Then put the tender shell back on, and make sure it fits tight. The tighter, the better. When you program the sound volume on the QSI, turn it down to no hight than 100. This will make sure that you get the lowest THD "Total Harmonic Distortion" I'm a dyslexic so if I spelled it wrong, there's nothing I can do about it :0 Anyway this will give you the best sound from the QSI decoder. If the tender rattles, and you want a little more Bass, you can add pollyfill on the inside of the tender. When you openthe tender, and turn the cover over, if you make like a birds nest in the top of the tender, and leave room for the speaker, it will cut down on the frequencies that resanate in the tender. This will give you a deeper, richer sound, and help take the vibration out of the tender shell. I just did one yesterday, and it thumps. 

Let me know if you have any problems. 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The only thing I don't like about the down firing speaker is a little loss of treble. 

All other things are an advantage, firing down diffuses the sound a bit, so it's a little less identifiable that it's coming from the tender and not the loco. 
Bass seems to be better, I think it is the coupling to the ground. 
Of course much better if you get any rain (ask me how I know) 

I have always stuffed the largest I can find. I have a number of litchfield speakers also, shown a few in my installation pages on the Mikado and the K4 Pacific. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

I understand about the treble, but the pattern of radiation is better if you fire it down. When you look at the recording on the scope, and you play it back from the Model. The pattern is beter if it is fired from the bottom. I was with you on this one untill they showed me the difference. Remember, the frequency responce starts to fall off about 150 or so. That mean that you can do without a little of everthing above that, to try to make up for what you loose below that. Did you get the other question about the soke drive mapping from the decoder. 

Loco Lee


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Spelling. The smoke unit controled by the function decoder mapping??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, dispersion is better, no question, but I was more talking about loss of treble from absorption in the ballast. My ideal is big woofer in tender, small tweeter in smoke box pointing down with a hole under it. Did this on an Aristo mallet, sounds great. 

Don't quite understand the smoke/function mapping question. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

In one of your last post you had said something about USAT useing the decoder to control the smoke unit. I was trying to understand what you were saying..


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, that it would be nice to have a decoder adjunct (another decoder) to turn the smoke unit on and off as well as some lighting functions, since my QSI's don't have any extra outputs. 

Regards, Greg


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Well you're going to love what I'm doing with the new lighting board. Whats the current draw of a duble smoke unit like on a GP9, or something like that. Also, are you putting a cap in series with the tweeter, and at what Freq are you trying to get the tweeter to? Some where over 5 -10 K or what? I'll have to try that some time. I have a SD45 that has 6 speakers in it, but I think the GP40 with one sounds better. Too much current los through all of those speaker, when you could have one tight punch with just one. 

Loco Lee


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

What a great response, Thank you so much for all the information. I will be using all of your advise to try and get the best sound possible. Too comment on a few of your replies:

Loco Lee I am afraid I have no idea what your talking about, I think the topic got side tracked a bit,,,no problem
I am unable to program the QSI cards so I have gotten Litchfield Station to do it for me. I wish that QSI would drop the price of there programmer as it is way to high for the hobby. 

Greg great advice as usual. I can not comment on speaker quality as I have not heard the sound out of any of them. Since you have used Litchfield Stations speakers can you tell us which are the best and which to stay away from.

Has anyone used 2 speakers one facing down and one up. or would this sound crappy?
Can the QSI card handle 2 speakers paralleled together? 
Maybe I can put a second speaker in a box car to get more bass?

I am looking to be creative on this so no idea is too crazy. I really like where this thread is going and let make it useful everyone. This is going to be a huge thread when we are done...LOL


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Navy, 
If lynchfield is programming the decoder, tell them to progam the main volume control to 100, not 127. You can also control the volumes with a magnet, and the black reed switch that comes with your decoder. When the locomotive has power to it, and it is just siting on the tracks. Place a magnet next to the reed switch, and you will hear the Vol level change. When it reaches the max, it will say max. Each time you move the magnet next to the reed, it will increase, or decrease the vol of the locomotive. Don't put two speakers faceing different directions, unless you can make sure that they are in Phase. IE, they have to be the exact same speaker, and the two posatives are conected to each other, and the two negatives are conected together. They should be High Bass speakers, and no less than 2 1/2 inches wide. I would use 3 inch if you could get them in there. One would be towards the front, and the other towards the rear to allow for the magnets not to touch. Tony's and others have a good selection of speakers. I think lynchfields does as well. I would only try this with a QSI. I can't say that there is any other decoder that will drive to 8 ohm speakers in parallel. IE 4 ohms of load. There may be some out there, but I don't know who they are. Anyway, you can try it if you like, and run it at one or two notches less than max on the vol control for the best sound quality. It would be interesting to see how well it works. I have 6 speakers in a SD45 here are the house. To be honest, it doesn't sound any better. It was just an experment to see if it could be done. 

Anyway, I hope this helps. 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would not put 2 speakers next to each other unless they were in separate enclosures:

Here's a sound system made by Leonard Kerns that puts 2-1/2" speakers in their own enclosures and fit in the boiler of a Mallet. The 2 smaller units are placed in the smokebox area, and one points down and one fires up into the boiler.
It works great, but the source of the bass is the fact there are 4 speakers and the 2 speakers in the longer enclosure, and a lot of experimentation by Leonard.











Here's a page about my use of a Litchfield speaker in an Aristo Mikado, the Litchfield part number is clearly visible in the picture:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...r-the-mike* 


I am very happy with the speaker: (Stock Aristo on left)












Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I have Leonard's speaker set up 1-1scale sound in two of my Mallets! Have since sold one Mallet. They worked great for me you can hear them on my page in you tube under 7485jerry or Leonard has a site where you can hear them also. I have one down in the front of the boiler, the double set in the middle facing towards each end and the 4th one on the wall in front of the cab pointing towards the front of the boiler. The front one is facing down, and I drilled about 6 holes in the floor of the boiler. Not sure what you are looking for but I like mine. Check em out! Regal 

YouTube - 7485jerry's Channel
YouTube - 7485jerry's Channel


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Greg, 

You can have two speaker share the same cabnet. The only thing is that them must be exactly the same make, and model, and be powered by the same amp. Otherwise the two will fight each other, and sound quality will go down hill. 

Loco Lee


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm just conservative. I know the "back wave" will be in phase. I agree probably no audible difference. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Today I installed my new QSI and speaker with ease. details about the installation can be seen on my site http://users.eastlink.ca/~brownscountry/index/Bachmann_K-27.html

I put a 3w to 5w speaker that sounds wonderful. I hope to get a sound file on my site soon but not sure it will do it justice.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wonder what is wrong with the link, it look exactly right, but it does not work...

*http://users.eastlink.ca/~brownscou..._K-27.html* 

Hmm... the error message says The requested URL /~brownscountry/index/bachmann_k-27.html was not found on this server.

Notice that the B in bachmann has been forced to lower case, as well as the K in K-27....

Help Shad! 


Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg I notified Shad this morning by email and also in one of the posts that when you put in a URL or link it doesn't work!! Regal


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I am not sure why it is not working. Lets try it again and see if I did something wrong when I made the link.

Backmann K-27


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

Looks Good Navy Tech,

I knew you could do it! How about that sound? Knocks your socks off don't it? Glad you like it. Keep up the good work, and let me know when you want to do a Diesel.

Loco Lee


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