# Rebuilt C21 by Dave Hottman



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I have always liked running my C21, perhaps because it is somewhat of a compromise between the smaller C16 and the K series engines. The only problem was it always seemed to lack any guts and my C16 could pull more cars. I had always attributed this to it being a piston valve engine. This last Diamondhead I happenned to ask Dave about it and he told me that it had smaller cylinders than a C16 and that he had bored his out to 3/4" cylinders and it made a completely different engine out of it. After I got back home I sent Dave an email and asked him if he had the time would he fix mine like his. Well.......when I got this engine back I was amazed at the difference. I believe it will out pull my K27. The engine has amazing low end torque and will pull stumps out. The larger cylinders also make it run slower, but now it marches up any grade with ease. I put three videos out there on You Tube if you want to look at them. Dave says he will do this mod for anyone that wants it. The locomotive is never more than half throttle in these videos. I picked places where there is a slight grade so you can hear it dig in for the pull. The engine simply will not stall. Enjoy. 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YUipuCsJ6c* 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq88foLhGz0* 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhHxxvtYugs*


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Very cool John! I always like the C-21 as well. Maybe I should get Dave to punch mine out too! 

Did Dave also put o-rings on the valves?


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/10/2008 7:05 PM
Very cool John! I always like the C-21 as well. Maybe I should get Dave to punch mine out too! 
Did Dave also put o-rings on the valves?




No Dwight, he said it wasn't necessary on my engine although he as done it on others. He did install his chuff enhancer and I believe he rebushed some of the rods and also replace all the o'rings on the piston and valve rods. Obviously he tuned it up as you can hear and it runs just as well in reverse.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

What a sweet running engine! That enhancer in the smoke box makes a big difference in the "bark".


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Ok, I will take the bait and ask the stupid question. In 3 out of 3 shots your engine pops off 5 seconds into the clip. Was this your Las Vegas luck or were you actually trying to time your shot. 

Tom


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Burns on 05/11/2008 3:18 PM
Ok, I will take the bait and ask the stupid question. In 3 out of 3 shots your engine pops off 5 seconds into the clip. Was this your Las Vegas luck or were you actually trying to time your shot. 
Tom




I noticed that too when I was taking the shots. I think the engine is just a camera hog and likes to show off. Nope I did not try and time it. It just happenned. But, it makes a good video doesn't it.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Very nice John. I look forward to seeing the engine run "in person." 

I do have a question for the manufacturers --- If the engines can perform like yours, why don't they make them like that in the first place? It seems to me that you should not have to pay a pro to make modifications and do tune ups to make the engines run "right." I must say that I have never run into this with Roundhouse engines. Must be why the expression "Nothing runs like a Roundhous." stays in vogue. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 

Dave


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 05/12/2008 9:53 AM
Very nice John. I look forward to seeing the engine run "in person." 
I do have a question for the manufacturers --- If the engines can perform like yours, why don't they make them like that in the first place? It seems to me that you should not have to pay a pro to make modifications and do tune ups to make the engines run "right." I must say that I have never run into this with Roundhouse engines. Must be why the expression "Nothing runs like a Roundhous." stays in vogue. " border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif" border=0> 
Dave




Excellent point Dave. I have asked that question myself. I don't know what they are thinking sometimes. One difference between Accucraft and Roundhouse is the variety and diversity of models by Accucraft while Roundhouse never really gets outside of a very narrow band of models. Hence they have perfected their design over the years and it is a good one. Also, Roundhouse does not make "American" prototype models other than the Sandy River. I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models. The idea behind the C21 was to make an inexpensive large engine that more people could afford. But if all they had to do was make the cylinders larger to get better performance you wonder why they didn't do it from the beginning.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John and Dave 
I have to agree with both of you as to Accucraft production standards. 

Yet, I am not sure about "I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models," for I believe the is a difference between hearing and listening. They might "hear" (a physical process) us but to really be a good listener(mental process) then one would not allow similar mistakes/short cuts to continue from one production model to the next regards base line designs. 

I "hear" that they guarantee satisfaction...listening to customers seeking satisfaction would result in Accucraft "fixing" a base line engine into "nothing short of excellence regarding the product and support we provide to all our customers before, during and after sale."


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I saw this Dave Hottman cylinder bored out, running gear adjusted C21 at my track today. All I can say is WOW!!!!!! And this is coming from an old Accucraft trouble maker......./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif. This C21 now runs like a Swiss watch, and pulls an incredible amount. I never thought I would say this about a Accucraft engine,..... but,.............John, I will be happy for you to store this engine at my house so you will not have to lug it over each time. Like my offer to Ed, I will supply butane and steam oil for free. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

So is this C21 now a "HOTTUCRAFT" engine/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 05/13/2008 9:01 PM
So is this C21 now a "HOTTUCRAFT" engine/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif" border=0>




Yes.  Maybe they should route all future production engines through Dave on the way to the customer......except I don't think Dave wants to see a truck full of 200 engines pull up to his house one day.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Now all the C21 needs is to breathe easier with larger piping and passages.....Then you should see an even larger improvement 

When I made 1/2" cylinders for the Ruby I noticed that yes it runs slower and has more power but it is slower cause it cant get the steam fast enough into the larger cylinder to make it 100% That was my reasoning behind the K28 mods.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

After STEAMING AT STEVE'S on May 13 I am considering ordering an Accucraft K-36.  

I never had a desired for an Accucraft engine as it always seemed to me they do not have the performance they should have. At Diamondhead it seems to me that the "engineers" spend an awful large amount of time fiddling with their engines. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif 

If someone can guarntee me that the K-36 will perform "out-of-the-box" as well as Tom's and John's engines were yesterday and will continue to do so for many hours of run time I will order one for sure. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 

Tom and John your engines really look and run great. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Yet, I am not sure about "I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models," 
I don't know Charles. Consider that the 4-4-0 has the first metered lubricator. In this instance, Accucraft listened to their customers and gave them what they wanted - metered oil - despite their concern for people running their products dry and damaging them, thereby creating warranty and "satisfaction" headaches for Accucraft. They are also producing a Mason Bogie AND a 4-4-0 - primarily because their customers requested them. 

The C-21 was one of their early locomotives too. If memory serves, the Ruby, Shay, and C-16 were its predecessors. I believe they are learning as they go, and applying what they learn to future models. The GS-4 was their first foray into alcohol-fired locomotives. Time will tell if what they learned from that experience is included in future alcohol-fired releases. 

There is also a trade-off in cost vs sophistication. They use piston valves when they are trying to keep the cost down, and slide valves where cost is somewhat less of a concern. It's up to the individual whether or not one chooses to purchase a particular loco.  

MHO


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 05/14/2008 8:34 AM
After STEAMING AT STEVE'S on May 13 I am considering ordering an Accucraft K-36. " border=0>" border=0> 
I never had a desired for an Accucraft engine as it always seemed to me they do not have the performance they should have. At Diamondhead it seems to me that the "engineers" spend an awful large amount of time fiddling with their engines. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif" border=0> 
If someone can guarntee me that the K-36 will perform "out-of-the-box" as well as Tom's and John's engines were yesterday and will continue to do so for many hours of run time I will order one for sure. " border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif" border=0> 
Tom and John your engines really look and run great. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>" border=0>" border=0> /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif" border=0>




Dave, if you really want one of these you need to get your order in soon as the price is sure to go up. I believe you can pre-order it for $4,500. After production they will be $4,750 or more. If there is a problem with your engine you can always send it to Hottman for a tune up. As for getting many hours of run time, I can only say all mine are still running after many hours of fun. 

http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=53 

I ordered mine from Greg at Rio Grande Southern RR Hobbies in Ridgeway. He is still listing it for $4,300 with a $400 deposit. 

http://www.rgsrrhobbies.com/index_files/Page2732.htm


----------



## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 
Consider the K-36 carefully because it's gonna be a BIG locomotive as you can see in Jon Kling's picture below of the K-27 (far), K-28 (center) and K-36 (near). I have enough trouble lugging my K-27 to the track, so I changed my mind about ordering a K-36 and opted for a K-28 instead, an excellent running and good looking lomotive. I'm not trying to change your mind, just want to warn you about the size and weight.


----------



## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

When I took delivery of my first C21 it would not pull the skin off a rice pudding ( UK xpression) so as some of you are aware I converted it to slidevalves with Stephenson valve gear, bored out the cylinders to 3/4" and fitted a coal fired boiler, all new larger steamways, axle pump and metered oil supply, it would then pull as much as my own K27 and C25. 
No doubt some of you remember it winning the pulling contest at Diamondhead in 2005. 
My second C21 I am converting the cylinders the same way ( I took a set to Diamondhead 3 years ago and showed Dave Hottman) maybe this gave him the idea to bore out his own, the boiler will be a new gas fired boiler with a ceramic flue burner, it has been on the bench for some time now due to making over 50 boilers last year, but I may find time to complete it this year as I am cutting down on my shop time due to my back problem. 
I am glad that Accucraft are listening to their customers and improving their loco's, I have a Mason Bogie on order and already have 4 coal fired boilers part completed, only waiting for the engine to arrive so I can check if they fit before I complete them. 
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David BaileyK27 on 05/14/2008 10:28 AM
When I took delivery of my first C21 it would not pull the skin off a rice pudding ( UK xpression) so as some of you are aware I converted it to slidevalves with Stephenson valve gear, bored out the cylinders to 3/4" and fitted a coal fired boiler, all new larger steamways, axle pump and metered oil supply, it would then pull as much as my own K27 and C25. 
I am glad that Accucraft are listening to their customers and improving their loco's, I have a Mason Bogie on order and already have 4 coal fired boilers part completed, only waiting for the engine to arrive so I can check if they fit before I complete them. 
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk




David you do some beautiful work. My C21 has one of your sight glass/blowdown valves mounted on it and I love it. I couldn't go all the way with this engine as you did, but just the boring out seems to have alleviated the problems with power. Thanks for everything you do for the hobby and keep up the good work.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Carl, 

Thanks for the comparison picture. 

David, 

A coal fired K-36 sure would be nice./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif However, I doubt whether I can afford it or, at my age, if I could take the wait time./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif 

Guys, 

I can only run one engine at a time so I would not be lifting the a K-36 very often. 

I am not going to be making a decision on ordering a K-36 for at least a couple of months. If I order I will beat the November First special order requirement./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/doze.gif 

DAYoung 
Santa Fe, Texas


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

I believe a few points need to be clarified. Accucraft has listened to customer’s input but to the extent that it has not significantly delayed production or resulted in significant cost increase. 

I am very respectful to all live steam manufactures world wide. Each has a role and fills a specific market need within this great hobby. That being said, I would like to make the following observations relating to Accucraft live steam products. 

Although I do not have facts or production figures to back up the following statements, I believe Accucraft has clearly over the past 5 years, produced and sold (sold out) more live steam locomotives than all other manufactures in the world combined. They have and continue to produce fine-scale live steam locomotives for less than ½ the cost of an equivalent model on the market. During this short 5 year period, they are the only manufacture in the world that has EVER attempted to produce 80% of the engines used by a prototypical railroad (D&RGW narrow gauge) in live steam and the only manufacturer to do so with an almost now complete line of rolling stock and track system. In addition, during this same period they have made a good dent in providing models for second major prototype railroad (Southern Pacific). 

I have observe some people complain about delays in delivery or locomotives that admitably in some cases do not run perfectly out of the box. For these individuals that appearantly want, demand, and can afford perfection, Aster might be a better alternative but be prepared to pay more than 2x the cost for even used equipment. I am confident in stating that with either with some minor modifications done by the owner or patients working through an Accucraft authorized representative, Accucraft engines can and do run as well, and as reliably as any engine on the market. I am not claiming this to be true in every case “out of the box”, but for the cost savings, I am more than happy making the minor modifications needed to have an outstanding engine. 

John’s C-21 is an excellent example of the true value achievable. Dollar for dollar, the C-21 out of the box is an absolutely fantastic value. It is by far the largest fine scale live steam locomotive ever produced in the $2,500 price range. Obviously boring out a locomotive goes well beyond a minor modification but by even paying for this modification, John now has a locomotive that pulls as good as a K-27 or K-28 for thousands of dollars less. 

In conclusion, it is my belief that Accucraft has been totally under rated in public forums for their contributions they have made to the live steam hobby. Prior to Accucraft, my long standing dream of modeling the RGS outdoors was simply that, an unfulfillable dream. Accucraft went way beyond my wildest expectations and dreams by not only allowing me to model the RGS in accurate 1:20.3 scale, but to do it in live steam. As I am approaching retirement, I have absolutely no doubt that many, many enjoyable years are ahead of me making my RGS live steam modeling dreams a true reality. For this I am truly grateful to Accucraft and all the distributors that make this possible. 

Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam (a dream soon to be fulfilled)


----------



## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd say they have a track "system" only after they deliver their turnouts! Not too many turnout-less railroads that I can think of, especially in Colorado.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Tom, 

I would not quibble with anything you said. 

However, so far, no Accucraft engine has been on my wish list because of reasons stated in my comments above. 

My problem -- and it is my problem -- is that I have no talent nor equipment to do the "making the minor modifications needed to have an outstanding engine." And remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A minor modification to you is probably a major effort for me. 

Dave


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Bruce, 

Very valid comment about the delays in turn-out delivery. Although I don’t want to deviate too far out of the topic of live steam, Accucraft’s turn-out development delays are very relevant particularly if you run a live steam Daylight on elevated track at scale speed. Accucraft most recent stated delay (Feb 2008) on turn-out production is also an example of a manufacturer listening to too many comments from the public. 

Accucraft indicated that as of Feb 08, they were still reworking the preproduction turn-out geometry in an attempt to make their turn-out work reliably for all other manufactures locomotives and rolling stock! This is far from a trivial exercise especially when starting from close to scale flange height that Accucraft has. I have been very verbal with Accucraft on this subject in that the last thing Accucraft owners want is for them to mass produce another deep flange frog turnout. Unfortunately a close to scale frog flange depth will simply not be reliable if you run deep flange wheels through it at high speed (wheels will jump through frog causing derailments). 

I told Accucraft that they were attempting the impossible. Evidently it is taking Accucraft a considerable amount of time for them to convince themselves of this fact. On the other hand, Accucraft has many smart people and has pulled a rabbit on many other occasions so we will see. The only really viable alternative I see is to produce a turnout and provide interchangeable brass frogs. People that run both deep and near scale flange wheels, will simply have to use a deep flange frog and live with Accucraft wheels dropping and clunking through the frog just as they do with current Aristocraft switches. This configuration is reasonably reliable for both wheel types but not desirable for those that run exclusively near scale wheels (Accucraft equipment). 

Again for narrow gauge operation at ground level, an occasional derailment on a frog is no real concern. If on the other hand I had the insane interest in running high speed on an elevated track, I would be highly motivated to insure the frog matches the wheel geometry especially for the locomotive. I am sure many stories you hear of Aster equipment attempting to take flight originate from this single incompatibility. The only reason Accucraft has not yet earned a similar reputation for building locomotives that fail their first (and possible last) flight test, is that Accucraft has only produced 1 high speed prototypical locomotive, and this engine requires more than a few modifications to run as fast and reliably as the Aster equivalent. Unless Accucraft forgets about the idea of building a turnout good for all wheel geometries, I am sure we will see more Accucraft locomotives run at high speed take that notorious 4’ plunge of death (gravity sucks). 

As with other Accucraft items, I have exercised the most diligent degree of patients I can muster on this issue. After all, when Accucraft first announced their planned turnout production, I was stupid enough to believe their initial delivery projections and tore out my entire railroad and donated all my Aristocraft track to the local live steam club (Zube Park). This made for a nice tax deduction but I continue to wait patiently for years now with nothing but an Accucraft mainline (no sidings) to run on ever since. Fortunately, John Frank lives only 20 miles away and maintains one of the nicest garden live steam layouts in Texas. Without John relieving my built up steam pressure, I am sure I would have been much more vocal on this issue prior to this date. 

Just for legal clarification, I take absolutely no responsibility for the Aristocraft turnouts that are now installed at Zube for those that like to run live steam at Warp 6 speeds on this club layout. 

PS	If anybody bothers to read all the way to this point, John Frank is persuading his friends to filibuster this message to keep it at the top of the list. I have never seen him this proud of an engine before (obviously hats off to Dave H. also). Seriously there is such a difference in the C-21, Accucraft should consider a 2nd run. 

Regards, 

Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

For Tom Burns two messages I say 'right on'. If not for Accucraft I would not be in this hobby. They are the only manufacturer doing American live steam in 1:20 scale and the only manufacturer concentrating on doing Southern Pacific, my favorite railroad along with D&RGW NG. Their products are second to none and the detail is fantastic. If they require a little work I can handle that. When I modeled in HO gauge practically none of the then brass steam locos ever worked 'out of the box'. They all had to be worked on to make them actually run. I think the current C19's have possibly been the most troublesome of Accucrafts recent products, yet you can see from the video Art posted at Steaming at Steve's, they run great and look great. One of those Dave Hottman retuned the other Tom worked on. Steam locomotives are labor intensive machines, even in the model world. That is why they are not in regular service anywhere in the prototype world except on tourist roads and in excursion service. Long live Accucraft and thank you for everything you have done for this hobby. 

As for switches, I use Llagas Creek both track and switches. Why wait for Accucraft? And, I wouldn't give you 2 cents for any Aristocraft track product. It's all junk.


----------



## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 05/14/2008 5:18 PM
Tom, 
I would not quibble with anything you said. 
However, so far, no Accucraft engine has been on my wish list because of reasons stated in my comments above. 
My problem -- and it is my problem -- is that I have no talent nor equipment to do the "making the minor modifications needed to have an outstanding engine." And remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A minor modification to you is probably a major effort for me. 
Dave 




Dave: 


With deep regret, fear you will not be buying any steamer any maker. Whether the one loco from a run or the entire run, or the maker they all come with "issues". Major, minor and in-between that mean tweaks, modifications, etc. Minor-to-major depending on particulars and perspective.


All things mechanical have issues, all. They are machines and machines have fit, finish, operation and maintenance both new and through out their lifetimes. Mechanical things wear in and out. Care and feeding offer some life extension. Higher the price something mechanical the more cost for the care and feeding. 


FWIW, IMHO, One person's tweak, customizing, improvement or rivet counting (seek perfection) is excuse to strike against the maker for not making it "their" way - egos and opinions. 


All makers make mistakes. Perfection is only by the hand of God, not humans. To complete the thought before anyone trys chiming in, no maker is a god either, just humans and prone to imperfection.


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Dave, 

Both John Frank and I have the K-36 on order. Personally I have a very high degree of confidence that this engines will perform out of the box due to the high percentage of almost identical K-27 and K-28’s delivered with excellent out of the box performance. Even with these production runs, there are examples of timing that are not initially set perfectly (one such posting active today on this site). If the K-36 is on your wish list and you want to be conservative, you might consider waiting until John and I get ours first. If you do wait and the K-36 turns out to be as fantastic as expected, but you do in the end happen to get one that is slightly out of time, knowledge exists in Houston to correct this very minor issue during one of our regular steamups. If by extremely rare chance you get one that has a more serious issue or damage inflicted UPS damage, Accucraft has about the best guarantee in the business I have seen (real demonstrated aftermarket service, not just the piece of paper). 

There is also a little technical secrete to the excellent performance of the large K class locomotives relative to out of the box performance. First is simply the larger size. The larger cylinder size and stroke associated with these engines makes them less sensitive valve timing issues. The second and bigger secrete is the drain cocks on these engines generally leak ever so slightly (good thing) which again decreases the sensitivity to having the valve timing perfect. To date, all D valve Accucraft engines are zero lap valve design. On the smaller C class engines in brand new condition (no leaks), the valve timing has to be set perfectly to get smooth test stand running in both forward and reverse. When I mean perfect, it has been my experience that a valve adjustment of only 0.005” can be the difference between a great running engine and one that hesitates at top dead center on the test stand. With the smaller C class engines (without drain cocks) this minor missadjustment can correlate to a large hesitation caused by piston “vacuum lock” from a valve opening late say only 10-15 degrees after top dead center. Again with the larger K class engines with drain cocks (leaks just enough to ease vacuum lock hesitation), the factory has significantly higher probability of getting the timing close enough to get a good running engine out of the box. It is also possible that Accucraft has the timing correct on all engines at the factory and that the slightly out of time issues more common on the C class engines are created by UPS. Again the geometry only has to change 0.005” which is not inconceivable given the set screw that secures the valve combined with the height UPS is known to drop our engines. 

Oh, just in case anybody notices and for the record, the K-36 never operated on the RGS as the bridges were only upgraded to handle the weight of the K-27 in 1925. K-27 were for this reason not allowed on a bridge simultaniously and double heading was done with 1 engine at the head of the train, and one engine bringing up the rear (generally cut in immediately ahead of the caboose). To date, there have only been 2 engines that have caused me to deviate from the prototypical RGS roster. One is the K-36 and and 2nd is the yet to be seen Accucraft Mason Bogie. Hard core RGS fans will just have to ignore my indulgence when I chose to run these 2 locomotives. To my knowledge, a Bogie never made it past Gunnison but I am sure an exception exists somewhere in recorded railroad history. Even if one made it past Gunnison for some odd reason (executive excursion or fishing trip by DSP&P officials?), I seriously doubt a Bogie ever made it past Ridgway and onto the RGS. With respect to the unseen Accucraft Mason Bogie, if the D&RG 4-4-0 production model is any indication, the Mason Bogie should be simply breath taking in appearance (out of the box). Also for the record, I am currently predicting that the Accucraft 4-4-0 will give Ruby a run for her money in terms of leading the pack in total locomotives sold. For the price, nothing in my opinion compares and I expect this engine will become the new entry level model leader for the hobby (or best choice for 2nd locomotive). 

Ok John, I have done my part. It is time for someone else to keep the filibuster alive before I am sanctioned by the administrator. 

Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Burns on 05/14/2008 7:51 PM
To date, all D valve Accucraft engines are zero lap valve design. On the smaller C class engines in brand new condition (no leaks), the valve timing has to be set perfectly to get smooth test stand running in both forward and reverse. When I mean perfect, it has been my experience that a valve adjustment of only 0.005” can be the difference between a great running engine and one that hesitates at top dead center on the test stand. 

Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam 




Tom,


I highly disagree with your statement of a zero lap tolerance designed valve gear as being a good thing. This is a second rate technology that should have never been applied to a engine costing above 3k.

The bigger issue with the zero lap technology is that the engines are highly inefficient and lack any form of proper timing. The research that we (Charles and I) have done with Gordon Watson, which eventually led to the conversion of the valve gear to a 1.5mm lap tolerance, has proven that the OEM valve timing, even when it seems perfect on a test stand is emitting steam late, in some cases up to 12% away from Top Dead Center on the piston stroke. The back pressure caused by just this alone will restrict any engine, SG or NG to speeds of 45mph or less. Highly inaccurate for those who are modeling trains that consistently ran at speeds of 70mph or above. This back pressure is also a key factor in the excessive consumption of water and fuel. There is so much untapped potential for the walscherts slide valve chassis that always seems to become ignored. In the case of the GS-4, this simply could not be tolerated. You COULD NOT run the engine anywhere close to a scale speed for a period of time, as it was either a battle for water or a battle for pressure since one had to dump it all into the cylinders in one shot to even get any sort of movement worthy of pulling a train. Read our article in the informative index thread (entitled All About Performance) if you have any further questions or concerns on the topic as to why the company should LISTEN with their hands, not their ears on the subject of efficient and proper working locomotives for the same cost as what they are putting out now, I'd be happy to answer them. 

Statements such as "the customer base should not be involved with the R&D of a model" are complete bogus, so you are saying that we should all shut our mouths, sit back, and write the checks to the company without having any input on what we are paying a princley sum for? I for one, will certainly not do anything of the sort. If this were the case, then we'd still be running dog whistle rubies around out circuit of track, wondering why we plunked down the money for this engine that sounds like a traffic cop during rush hour.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, I can't take it anymore. I'll take the bait!!"/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif" 
Yes, this C21 is one of the best running engines I have ever seen.........however, the fact that we are all so amazed that this "ONE" runs this way speaks volumes. What about all the folks that do not want to send their engines back and forth till they run right?? There are several live steam Guru's out there that can rework, rebore, reset, etc., any engine and make it run perfect. The engines that impress me are the ones that run well out of the box. 
Sorry, but this Accucraft love fest was starting to make me /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

First, let me put on my fire suit../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif ok, Well Steve, now it runs almost as good as some of my ASTER engines.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff are you saying "some" Asters, as in "some but not all???" 
You are doomed, doomed I tell you. 
Hope to see you Monday


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Fear not Sir steam8hack! I already have purchased many live steam locomotives. 

My current stable includes gas fired, alcohol fired and coal fired engines. 

I just have not owned an Accucraft 'though I have observed many an Accucraft in operation. 

Some humans and manufactures have better quality control than others. And as an-oh-by-the-way I spent over twenty years as a quality assurance and quality control manager in the aerospace industry. 

And yes the Accucraft engines running at Steves this week are equal to those of any manufacture. 

DAYoung 
Santa Fe, Texas


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, I have become such a "Believer" that I am now running "Mystery Oil" in my Aster's.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, Tom and John- 
So I understand your comparative bases; what Accucraft engines that where running at Steve's that would allow the conclusion: 
And yes the Accucraft engines running at Steves this week are equal to those of any manufacture. Along with the general consensus among the three above that Accucraft is second to none. 

Given that Accucraft engines spoken about are NG: C19, C21, etc at Steve's run. Aster does not make any comparable locomotives (NG) leaving only the (apples to apples) GS4 and maybe the Cab Forward/Big Boy. 

From my experience with GS4, it is: Aster 1 and Accucraft 0 in stock production versions. 

In doing some reading recently on Japan (my son Matt was traveling there)I came across this article that might sum up the general differences in locomotive offerings: 

Economist Kwan, a Hong Kong native who's spent his career in Japan, says Japanese fears of China are overblown. It's easy to pay too much attention to China's cheap labor: True, Chinese workers â€" who usually make less than $100 a month â€" earn just 3% of Japanese and 2% of U.S. wages. But because they tend to be poorly educated, use obsolete machines and toil for inefficient state-owned companies, they're far less productive. Chinese productivity is just 3% of U.S. levels and 4% of Japan's. 
Kwan argues that Japan and China don't compete head-to-head because Japan specializes in more advanced products. 


Steam8hack- While I agree with you general premise relative to mechanical productions of our steam engines. I do not agree with the conclusion that to: 
"One person's tweak, customizing, improvement or rivet counting (seek perfection) is excuse to strike against the maker for not making it "their" way - egos and opinions." 

Most tinkerers and steam experts (yes, there are hobbyists that can teach a company's engineer that thing or two about making steam locomotives) support the manufacturers(Accucraft in this discussion) and make suggestions, references,etc to better not to "strike against" the very limited manufacturing base. 

IMHO- I truly believe that Accucraft has gone the route of NG (smart move) because their is no comparible product offering on the market(one except is the OUTSTANDING David Bailey K27 limited offering). Therefore, those purchasing such an engine without reference points will conclude that it is the best thing since slide bread. Then someone (Dave Hottman, Jay) demostrates what just a few changes can do to make the engine better. The follow up as posed by Dave and John early on in the thread is to question why not off the production line? 
Reference Jay's rebuild; not ego, opinion or strike against just improvement of engine for performance. One might denote quality control issues on the original components of the engine if one reads the post with both eyes open. 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...rumid/11/postid/28178/view/topic/Default.aspx 
No bias here, the fact that I support via my wallet should indicate my position with Accucraft:SG that is.


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

And I pay them good money to keep this string going. LOL. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif 

Hey, you guys have at it. I am happy with my engines just as they are, inefficient, oil and water guzzling, poorly designed and engineered machines that they apparently are. They look good and run good and that is all I care about. The rest is for you rivet counters and wannabe engineers to debate. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif 

And Steve, I knew you wouldn't be able to stand it for long. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

Meanwhile I am off to Canada for a nice train ride from Toronto to Vancouver and a couple days in Seattle. You guys have this all settled when I get back. hehe. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Ryan, 

I apologize if my earlier response indicated that zero lap timing is a good thing. I disagree in one respect in that zero lap timing does and can work effectively on slow running narrow gauge locomotives especially when pulling high loads up grades (exactly what narrow gauge engines are designed for). This statement is in no way an indicated preference. 

Zero lap timing can and does take a considerable amount of time for a novice like me to adjust and make improvements to a slightly out of time engine. I own both C-19’s Art took video’s of this week and posted on this site. Dave H. made slight improvement to D&RGW 346 in a couple of hours. It took me more than 10 hours to improve the factory settings on RGS 41. 

When I took delivery of my very first C-16, I had concerns about how zero lap timing would work with extended use. I was concerned enough that I in fact had Gordon Watson build me a complete Stephenson valve gear system for my C-16. I was concerned that the additional mechanical slop created by extended operation would further deteriorate the already sensitive valve timing. Fortunately it has been my experience that with time, the sensitivity of the valve timing improves as the benefits of the slight leak in the piston O rings (and other seals) that develops more than offsets the additional slop in the mechanism. As such I have yet to convert my first C-16 with the Stephenson system I purchased from Gordon. 

Your point relating to Accucraft’s application of zero lap timing to their 1:32 scale high speed road engines is understood and well documented. This is however a totally different discussion with pages of history in the archives. Fortunately my live steam interests have exclusively remained with low speed narrow gauge modeling. 

Relevant to this discussion, the point you made is another example of Accucraft attempt to listening to aftermarket comments by customers (but slightly misinterpreting the needed application). The K-36 demonstration model run at Diamondhead this year does in fact have full variable valve cutoff (fully functioning Johnson bar). In my opinion for this engine it is not really needed unless as you indicated, you plan on running it at scale 40mph speeds continuously. Working high loads climbing up grades at scale 10mph speeds, I seriously doubt that I will utilize this benefit. I assume this new feature was incorporated based on GS-4 feedback, but in this case is not the most beneficial application. I am sure from Accucraft’s perspective, as long as this feature increases sales to the extent it offsets the additional costs, they likely do not care if this is not the best initial application. I should state before any assumptions are made that just because the demonstrator model is configured this way, does not indicate the K-36 production models will be delivered with this feature. Accucraft has that very interesting clause in all their advertisements where they reserve the right to change specifications of any product without notice. 

I never tried to indicate that Accucraft products were in any way perfect or directly comparable in any way to the high quality Aster products. On the other hand, I wonder if Steve’s indication of being ready to spew is really caused by the realization that for the cost of Aster’s last articulated engine (a true masterpiece), an individual can purchase not 2 but 3 roughly equivalent (in size) cab forward Accucraft locomotives. In perspective even in comparison to a true work of art by Aster, the thought of triple heading cab forwards (or possibly future Accucraft Big Boys) in comparing to running a single Aster articulated becomes a most difficult dilemma even for someone who does appreciate Aster’s work of art. At some point the size envy issue dominates over quality, and nobody on this list could possibly deny that the thought of triple heading cab forwards does not carry a impressive size factor. OK, I am obviously ignoring the issue that it is likely impossible for any “normal” live steam hobbyist to maintain 3 cab forward engines, much less the practicality to get all 3 running simultaneously. No question, this would be possible with 3 Aster articulated engines, but who among us has really got $60k to enjoy this unique experience. 

Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam


----------



## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Burns on 05/14/2008 6:29 PM


.....SNIP....
Seriously there is such a difference in the C-21, Accucraft should consider a 2nd run. 
Regards, 
Tom Burns 
RGS in Live Steam 





I for one second that motion. I would love to see a second run of the C-21.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

For us relative newbies eager to learn, can someone define "zero lap timing?"  

Thanks. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Picture the hole from the valve to the cylinder. The valve is a part that slides back and forth over this hole. If it is on one side the hole is open to the exhaust and if it is the other way it is open to the steam pressure side. The valve only needs to be as wide as the hole so that steam does not pass from the steam side to the exhaust side when the valve is centered over the hole. That is Zero lap. If the valve face is wider than the hole such that is has to move more than a molecules width to open the valve one way or the other, then that is "Lap". But, obviously this means the valve has to move more to start letting steam into the cylinder (or to let exhaust out). so the valve is set to start opening a bit earlier than would be the case if the valve and cylinder were exactly 90-deg (wheel rotation point) to each other, so the valve is then set to "lead" the piston in the cylinder by some number of degrees. With Stevenson's valve gear, this is done by setting the eccentrics off of 90-deg and with Walschearts it is done in the combination lever connections that combine the angle of the eccentric with the angle of the piston postion.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight and Charles, 

Somewhere I have a orthographic drawing showing lap and lead in slide valves. I'll see if I can locate it and post it here.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight and all 
Here is an article that continues the great overview by Semper Vaporo with a diagram: 
http://www.kesr-operating.org.uk/valves_and_pistons.htm 
Tom 
You are right on the money. When we were asked by NG owners, the conclusion was reached several years ago that the narrow gauge engines were setup "properly" for their running needs and doing working combination levers was an unnecessary added expense that would not greatly improve performance. 
The "side bar" on prototype models speaks volumes as we all know the the changes that have been done between the "show model" and the customer offering. 
I am and have expressed to Accucraft the disappointment of the Cab Forward design which did not have working combination levers. If the K36 has the combo lever that would point out that Accucraft does not truly understand some key steam designs as it relates to purpose of NG/SG as it has not been offered on either SG model thus far.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

John A. The one Aster in our house that is not very smooth at low speed in the OLD FAITHFUL, see link 

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/old faithful.htm 


See ya Monday 
Jeff


----------



## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, 
I once had an Old Faithful that ran very well at low speeds. I bought it new when they came out in 1976, so it was tight and a good runner back then. I always wondered where that loco is now. I sold it to Jim Crabb more than 10 years ago.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Carl, Don't get me wrong it WILL run slow but is much happier zipping along at warp speed!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if Steve’s indication of being ready to spew is really caused by the realization that for the cost of Aster’s last articulated engine (a true masterpiece), an individual can purchase not 2 but 3 roughly equivalent (in size) cab forward Accucraft locomotives.


Who........me,............spew. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif 

Tom, Tom, Tom,...................at the end of the day you would still just have 3 Accucraft Cab Forwards that would loose their value each and every day. On the other hand, Aster Alleghenys and BB's just keep being more and more sought after. You pays for what you gets. You look at the Accucraft Cab Forward and there is cheating all over the place. The Aster's have steam actually running through all the pipes just like the real ones. It still amazes me how the steam fittings pivot with the articulation of the Loco just like the "real" ones. On the Aster, it's not done with silicone hose. Please, if you really want to make me /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif try and compare 3,4,5 or even more Accucraft Cab Forwards to a Aster Allegheny or BB. There is no comparison. 

Im still waiting for Accucraft to fix their valve gear set up so the engines wont look like they are running in forward when in reverse, or is it reverse when in forward, or is it a special "Accucraft neautral", or the company notch........ /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

With all this high praise for Accucraft, I can invision a huge jump in their sales so I am leaving now to go buy stock in the Lucas oil company.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Every time this discussion comes up, it always reminds me of Window vs Apple.







There's always the few who will fork over top dollar for the finest computing machine in the world - you know, the one that never gets viruses, never breaks down, never bluescreens, etc. The rest of us "great unwashed" make due with poor ol' Windoze. 

And now I've just started a brand NEW argument!









Thanks for the explanations and link on valve lapping.  Very instructive for this here "unwashed."


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Whoa there, Dwight... "valve lapping" is a totally different subject! 

"Valve Lapping" is the act of polishing the valve surface and seat so they seal well. 

"Valve Lap" is the amount that the valve surface is larger than the valve opening. 

I think I see why the term "Zero Lap valve" could be confusing if one were to think of the act of "Lapping the valves" in an engine for greater sealability. 



Of course, you realize the opposite of "unwashed" could be "Steam cleaned"!


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/15/2008 8:13 PM 

Every time this discussion comes up, it always reminds me of Window vs Apple.







There's always the few who will fork over top dollar for the finest computing machine in the world - you know, the one that never gets viruses, never breaks down, never bluescreens, etc. The rest of us "great unwashed" make due with poor ol' Windoze. 

And now I've just started a brand NEW argument!









Thanks for the explanations and link on valve lapping. " border=0>" border=0> Very instructive for this here "unwashed." " border=0>" border=0>



Factoid: 
At the annual hackers convention this year hackers took on Apple's, MS's and Linux's latest OS's. The very secure Apple was hacked in a few minutes (2-3 min. ?) MS hacked in a hours. Linux was not broken. 


No argument Dwight, just questions: Who's drinking Kool Aid? Who suffers from cognitive dissonance?


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

No arguement Dwight, just questions: Who's drinking Kool Aid? Who suffers from cognitive dissonance?
Uhhhh... the guy who can't spell "argument?" /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/15/2008 11:51 PM
No arguement Dwight, just questions: Who's drinking Kool Aid? Who suffers from cognitive dissonance?
Uhhhh... the guy who can't spell "argument?" /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0>


Gawd, i'm so imbearassed /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Does this digression to a discussion of computers mean everything that needs to be said about the "Rebuilt C21 by Dave Hottman" has been said? 

I hope not! I have really enjoyed the discussion on the Accucraft locomotives. I have learned a good bit and would like to learn more. 

Sometime between now and the order cut off date I have to make a decide whether I want (and can afford) a K-36. The more I learn about Accucraft the better position I will be in to decide.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Does this digression to a discussion of computers mean everything that needs to be said about the "Rebuilt C21 by Dave Hottman" has been said? 

Not at all.


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Dwight, 

Earlier in this post I defined Expert as one who scratch builds live steamers. Although your current project sits on a chassis that is not totally scratched, it in no way can be considered a bash. I am trying to figure out how your project fits my definition and if you are willing to be hoisted up to the heights and provide this group guidance among the likes of Dave H. and Dave B just to name a few. Your little engine just keeps growing on me (don't ask me what that really means). 

Tom


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Well now. It appears we may be shifting further discussion to the new "Just Wondering" thread.


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

Is it that obvious that I'm running out of ideas to keep John's orginized filibuster going? I thought I was doing a better job than that. Lets see.... 

Tom


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Tom, but "expert" I ain't by any stretch of the imagination. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif I didn't acratchbuild any of the running gear, nor the boiler, and Dave Hottmann had her all set up and running like a watch when I got her as a Mogul-to-American. Everything I did was essentially cosmetic, and all I had to do was make sure I didn't screw up any of Dave's work. That she runs so well is entirely Dave's doing, not mine.


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Burns on 05/16/2008 6:24 PM
Is it that obvious that I'm running out of ideas to keep John's orginized filibuster going? I thought I was doing a better job than that. Lets see.... 
Tom




Thanks Tom for keeping this in everyone's face while I was gone./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif Checks in the mail.  Hey everyone..........I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Tom for keeping this in everyone's face while I was gone. Checks in the mail. Hey everyone..........I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack.


John, a thread on all the problems that Accucraft engines have is never hard to keep going. It just morfed into the "Just Wondering" thread. I think that you will find some interesting reading there...............a kind of "Welcome Home" if you will. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 05/25/2008 11:08 PM
Thanks Tom for keeping this in everyone's face while I was gone. Checks in the mail. Hey everyone..........I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack.

John, a thread on all the problems that Accucraft engines have is never hard to keep going. It just morfed into the "Just Wondering" thread. I think that you will find some interesting reading there...............a kind of "Welcome Home" if you will. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif" border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif" border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>




Steve, being retired, I have little time for all that bs. The main focus is "I got mine fixed" and it runs great. The rest are not my problem. jf.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John, being retired means that you have plenty of time for all the BS. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


----------

