# Backer- board discussion, Hardy Backer, etc....



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks for the tip Paul.. I think that a more thorough discussion of the materials we use 'outdoors' is a good idea. How many use these products? Does anyone us any other products that come in contact with the ground, our pesky environment, wet freezing cold, & heat and baking sun light..?

Do you paint, seal, stain, or use some coating to protect the materials You use?

And of course how do they hold up in your setting / situation and locale??

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've used both HardiBacker (James Hardie products) and Fiberock (US Gypsum) outdoors, and neither has held up. I'm in zone 5 (Colorado's Front Range). My buildings are outdoors all the time, continually exposed to the elements, which includes constant contact with the ground which is frozen from late November to mid March, and buried under snow for a period of weeks at a time in the more snowy months. The HardiBacker after about 3 years will delaminate, as shown here: 










The Fiberock stuff simply loses its strength and begins to disintegrate, as seen here: 










Both of these products were left outdoors for two years untreated and unfinished as a "test" to see if they'd hold up to the elements. For the two years they were out there, they appeared to do okay. Evidently, it was the 3rd year that "done them in" as they say. So for my climate, I'd suggest looking elsewhere. Dryer, warmer climates might have better luck. For me, I'm back to using Gatorplast (expensive and very lightweight, but easy to cut and work with x-acto knives and cutting tools designed for cutting foam core boards) or 1/2" bluefoam insulation board. (Cheaper, but thicker.) Both of these products have held up well in my climate. 

Later, 

K


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Kevin, 

Have you considered any paint or something else to seal the exposed edges on the materials you use? 

I am wondering also IF a wood frame at the door opening inside would help stop the disintegration of the Fiberock. I like what shows in your pic btw, it has nice feelings about this building!! :~} 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Kevin:

The HardieBacker 500 and HardieBacker 1/4" underlayment boards are not rated for exterior use. Since they readily adsorb moisture repeated freeze/thaw cycles will most certainly lead to failure just as you have experienced. It is only their exterior products such as HardiePlank and HardiePanel that are freeze resistant. However these are intended for vertical installation such as on the side of a house with appropriate finishes (paint).

Mark


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got some outside and they have held up well. I do usually pick them up for the winter, but they have been left out for some winters. Nebraska has rain/snow/heat/cold.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I looked at a couple scrap pieces, 1/4 and 1/2". It appears the 1/4" just has an outer coating of some kind with no internal laminations. The 1/2" however seems to be constructed with about four layers.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dirk, I did not treat the Hardibacker at all. I just set it in the ground, based on the notion that they promoted that you could immerse it in water and it would hold up okay. The Fiberock was painted on the inside (exposed) side, but it just peeled off like a layer of dry skin. Likewise, the glue holding the styrene sheets on the outside just peeled right off the outermost layer. 

I'm using the James Hardie siding on my storage shed (vertical wall, not flat) but it appears to me to be a slightly different material material (as I would expect). 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The water immersion display needs to be looked at carefully, not all hardie products are waterproof... as it seems you have found out.. I looked at the display and it was specific on which "model" of material was waterproof. No delamination in mine in years, and it's unsealed, unpainted. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, all I can tell you is the stuff "in the tank" was the same product I walked out with. It was the only HardiBacker product they sold, and I got the full run-down from the salesman at the store. But in reality, it doesn't make a bit of difference what the manufacturer claims. The stuff's designed to be used underneath tiles in kitchens and bathrooms, not set outdoors unprotected, frozen for 5 months out of the year for years on end. All bets are off in that environment. Yeah, I was impressed with the demonstration, but I _still_ did 2 years of testing on my own to see how the stuff held up in my particular climate before committing to its use. (Shoulda gone 3...) 

I have no doubt your installation would fare better than mine. It's probably about as opposite as you can get--a much milder climate, not in full contact with the ground, and a different product. And good on everyone who's having success with the same stuff I'm using in their particular environments. I wish my results were as good. But it's clearly not working for me here--that's all I can say. Readers can take all the experiences posted here in aggregate and make their own decision based on their location and application. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did not want to belabor the point, but you and I both believe that we walked out with the product in the tank. Mine has absolutely no delamination, despite getting washed down with a hose, having multiple cut edges, etc. As I remember my "type" was not available in 1/4". I really believe we do NOT have the same "model"... one key, there was a thin red "stripe" about 2" wide stuck to the material... after a couple of years it came off. This stripe had information printed on it about the product. 

If yours did not have this, it definitely was not the same grade... I believe that the HD people sold you a "chevy" not a "chevy corvette"... sure same manufacturer... 

Anyway, a moot point since what you have available failed. It's too bad, but damning hardibacker in general and the waterproof materiel specifically... it's not proven to me you have the same stuff that I do, that has had zero problems in years. It could be and it could not be. 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

You know, I keep reading this and now I realize that I don't care. If it lasts four or five years as a building base and I have some that is in to its fifth year, and then I need to replace it,thats fine. Easy to do. What I have done when it gets a little discolored from winter weather is spray it with an outdoor cleaner. I like the product from Clorox that I get at H.D. I also use it on the seventy five feet or so of wood retaing wall on the east side of the layout. Every couple of years,keeps the wood looking good. Gets rid of any green mossy color and restores it to a new look again.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in WET Western Washington. When i first did my railroad, I wanted to pile dirt up about 2 feet high along one side of my garage. Rather than putting it directly against the siding, I built a retaining wall about 6 inches from the garage wall and then back filled with dirt. The retaining wall was made of 1/2 inch thick cement board. It has been in place for 7 years now and it is just as good today as the day I built it. Every 2 1/2 feet I supported it with a 2 X 4 so it did not come in direct contact with my garage siding.

I have also used cement board as a base for buildings. Some of these have been in place for 3 years and are still usable. Another piece is now breaking apart.
That has been my experience with cement board.

John


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It surely has to make a HUGE difference where you live? The hot/cold cycle, for example, but also the relative constant humidity must matter a great deal. The temperature variance in S. California is just much less than the temperature variance in Colorado. So is the level of humidity. N. VA, where I live, has long periods in the high 90s, with extreme humidity, but then it can go to dry and into the teens, then bury you in snow for a few days. 

It also must have a lot to do with local PH--how acidic is the local soil? How alkaline? How salty? All this stuff must make a huge difference with 24/7 exposure. 

We've had good luck with rigid insulation foam.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Since this thread is a spin-off of the thread where I made this original distinction, *here's a link* to the specific product I'm using. It comes in both 1/4" and 0.42" thicknesses, the latter to match the thickness of standard drywall, but otherwise identical. I'm using the 1/4" stuff. That's the only tile underlayment product James Hardie makes, but they make a range of exterior-grade siding products as well which very well may have better resistance to the elements since they're specifically designed for exterior applications. The tile underlayment is not an exterior-grade product. 

It might help, Greg, if you could post a link to the specific stuff you're using. You're having success with it, and if it's vastly different from the stuff I'm using, I might be tempted to give it a try. Certainly others in similarly mild climates would find it useful. If it's just a thicker version of the same stuff, we can attribute the differences in our respective results to climate and application. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll try to look it up at HD next time... and I'll quiz them there... I do remember this unusual trait of the material with the "stuck on" plastic strip. The reason I keep coming back is that I'm not getting any deterioration on the cut, exposed edges, I figure that if water was penetrating, I would have seen something in the last 5 years, but it COULD be that the deterioration only comes from freezing with moisture in it... 

Greg


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Having no experience with this stuff at all, could it be that it is 'waterproof' but still porous allow water molecules to get into the middle of the product? If the water is kept in a liquid for it's fine, but when it changes to a solid and expands slightly that's when the problem gets noticed? 

Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Waterproof is supposed to mean that it does not absorb moisture. Period. That's the definition of the word. Advertising something that is porous to water as waterproof is fraudulent. 

I agree, the damage to Kevin's stuff is almost undoubtedly water freezing inside, since we all know concrete can be subjected to freezing temps. 

It's that fine distinction, waterproof should mean impervious to moisture... 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

it COULD be that the deterioration only comes from freezing with moisture in it... 
That's what brings the mountains down. Well, out here at least. You guys have earthquakes, and Paul has volcanos. Frankly of the three, I'll take the ice.  

Later, 

K


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomorrow I'm stopping at H.D. and maybe Lowes to check things out.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hah! It ALWAYS gets ice and snow there, we get earthquakes, but not like clockwork, and I've never been in one where anything was even damaged. This is like the east coast guys ragging on california about earthquakes, but they've repaired 2 autos and a house roof from hail alone. 

I'll keep my "lousy paradise" thank you very much... it's always rainy, and cold here, and we have hurricanes and tornados, and snow and ice and hail and floods... don't believe anything good you hear about the California climate... it's a lie!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Geeeeez I did not know we got weather reports on this thread TOO!!!! 

I was out of town yesterday, so made a fast dash thru HD. Today I think it was toooo fast.. more ?'s left, than answered.... 

I saw the Hardibacker - both in the 1/4 inch stuff and the .42'' - just how it is labeled also btw...3' x 5' sheets.... 
The black printed label on the .42'' says 'superior product', but no red strip...... 

.......... from that I 'assumed' that the .42'' was therefore better than the 1/4'' stuff ............ 

A heavier stuff yet, was labeled 'Wonder Board' in a 1/2'' variety 3' x 5' sheets.... 

But no sunken ship water display at My stores!! You guys have all the luck! 

Did not seem to give much real info for the product otherwise...... 

I did visit the Paint dept. also - where I learned that there is a Primer called "Gripper" that does bond well to various products including masonry, in the tough to adhere to a surface line of paints 

typical 1's and 5's for typical paint prices!! 

Doesn't seem like enough info to Me. 

.............. Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Stopped at H.D. today. Like Dirk said they hav Hardie Backer and Wonder board,both items in 1/4" and 1/2". The wonder board does have a maroon colored tape that has the installation instructions on it. Those are the only two that they carry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That might be the one, faded to red... about 2 inches wide? 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
It is about 2" wide,runs the lenght of the board,maybe 10" from the edge.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg said " and I've never been in one where anything was even damaged. " 

Haven't lived here long, have you? 

1971 Sylmar 65 people killed; leveled the VA hospital among many other buildings Half a billion in property damage in what was, at the time, a very sparsely populated area. 

1987 Whittier Narrows killed 9, extensive damage in Whittier and the San Gabriel Valley 

1989 Loma Prieta killed 63 Pancaked the 880 double decker freeway and caused the most damage in SF since 1906 

1990 Northridge 60 fatalities more than 40,000 buildings damaged, 20,000 people were homeless 

Those are just the ones with fatalities; there are hundreds of others. 24 of M6.0 or greater since the Sylmar quake. 

Real time earthquake data here: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have lived here, but never damage WHERE I LIVE... 

I don't count all of California, just like a resident of Northern Georgia does not count everything that happens in Atlanta. 

I choose not to live on top of an active fault, just like some people choose not to live in the most dangerous part of Louisiana. 

So since I live in California I have to count everything in California? 

Of course I lived in California through all of those, and there was no damage and no one injured WHERE I LIVED. 

I have never been "in" one where anything was damaged where I was "in" 

Sheesh... you sound like someone NOT from California, but the people who have had their house roof and car bodies, and flood damaged several times and then rag on California about earthquakes. 

how many people were killed in New Orleans? You count up all the problems and deaths and damage in the South and then see where "dangerous" is... 

Greg 

p.s. look at this map of the areas for natural disasters *http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/05/01/weekinreview/01safe.html* from the 60 years I've been here, I've experienced earthquakes to be sure, but never loss or damage from them. All of those people who live out where the red circles chime in and tell me if you have had hail damage, flood damage. The number of times power has been out here is so small that people with generators are viewed like crazy people.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

dWhen I started my railroad 7 years ago I wanted to raise the bed along the back side of my garage. I did not want to pile dirt directly against the siding, so I built this retaining wall using 1/2 inch cement board (Hardibacker). I piled dirt directly against the hardibacker. It has been there now for seven years. We get much rain from October through April and sometimes later into the spring. I have seen no deterioration of the hardibacker board during that time.










This is in our front yard. I wanted to build a raised planter bed in front of the house boardering our side walk. Once again, I did not want the dirt to come directly in contact with the siding so I built this box to keep the dirt away from the house. On this one I made a cover which is sloped about 20 degrees for water runoff and to make it look more professional and finished. Again, it has now been out for 2 years with no deterioration noticed. 

I have also used hardibacker board for the base of several buildings on my railroad.










I have used it as a base for my coaling tower and water tank as well as various other buildings. Some of them have been in direct contact with the dirt for more than 2 years and are still showing no deterrioration.

Of course, most of my posts are disregarded so I guess if you want to skip over these pictures and ignore them, that is fine. I will continue to use hardibacker in WET, WET Western Washington.

John


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 
Like I have posted earlier, it works for me. Both 1/4 and 1/2. I just think that the more severe climates might effect it more than our milder but wet winter climate.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I used the 1/2 inch hardy board on my 5 track covered storage yard I built 4 years ago. Part is out side in the weather and was painted and has stood up well. I have hot and cold temps even with occasional snow. Later RJD


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I've been using it for several years as bases for all of my buildings. I've started to see it deteriorate. I even used a latex paint used for painting cement in the hopes it would help seal it from the weather.

I'm now thinking of converting over to ceramic floor tile. They make it in 12x12's or 18x18's. I think that might work better for N. Ohio environment. 

Mark
*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They make it a lot larger... look for the tiles that simulate wood floors, you can get them in larger sizes. 

The company I work for makes tile... I just called up a showroom, we have a tile that is 8 inches by 40 inches, that might do the trick for you. I did not check any prices, so I have no clue if it's cost effective. 

There is also 6 inch by 24 inch, but if it was me, I'd want to use longer pieces. 

Greg


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

All these things seem to be OK, well it worked OK for me, well it’s starting to come apart at the edges but it’s OK. Why not just bite the bullet and use Dibond, end of problem.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

All these things seem to be OK, well it worked OK for me, well it’s starting to come apart at the edges but it’s OK. Why not just bite the bullet and use Dibond, end of problem.


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

I use HardiePlank® Lap Siding or HardiePanel® Vertical Siding it is an *exterior* product (NOT HardieBacker® Cement Board which is an *interior* product) it comes in 4' x 8' sheets and for straight roads I use the 8-1/2" x 16' pieces it's made of cement here is main street...


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Have any of you tried Precision Board or a competing product? These high density polyurethanes are pretty good at not absorbing water and are mold/mildew resistant. They also can be cut and formed like wood...all you need are regular wood working tools. Further, you can sculpt rocks in them with a roto-tool. It is recommended they be painted...but that stuff is dimensionally stable over a huge temperature range. To me, the 3/4" thick stuff is stiffer than hardibacker or wonder board.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great discussion! But I'm kinda worried now, having just made 3 thin and curved bridges. These are, at some point, going to be hidden by tunnels / mountains, so I was hoping have a fool-proof method. From this thread, it appears I don't. Oh, well! But here's a pic of 2 of them:











These are 3 layers of Hardibacker 500, bonded with construction adhesive and painted with foundation paint. 

Maybe they'll last a while? Who knows....


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Like Dean posted he used the Hardi exterior product designed for trim and siding and those products are waterproof and not the same as the smaller sheets used for showers. The sheets of Hardi board that you use for showers and tubs are not waterproof. They don't need to be as they are covered with a waterproof finish of tile or solid panels. While the Hardi is not water proof its a cement/fiber produce and water will not completely damage it BUT it will wick up moisture and start to get wet through the core and eventually fail. People use it for stucco and cement products and that covering makes it waterproof for the most part. I wouldn't dump it in water but even concrete wicks moisture.


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