# Carrying Live Steam on an Airplane...



## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I know there was some discussion about this a while ago, but I was not able to find the postings pertaining to this subject. I am going to home to Florida for our 2 week Christmas break and Id much rather carry my F5 on the plane with me than ship it home as UPS is really good at breaking stuff. I read TSA's rules and was shocked to find out that passengers are allowed to carry lighters on the plane. However, the carriage of fuel tanks, even if empty, is prohibited. My question is this, does this pertain to all fuel tanks? Or just those previously filled with gasoline? As far as I know lighters are filled with butane gas, so I dont see why they would have a problem with the carriage of an empty butane fuel tank that DOES NOT have an ignition source like a lighter. Or perhaps it is just that TSA really is that illogical and that they will still prohibit the carriage of empty fuel tanks.


Has anyone successfully carried a live steam engine on a plane recently?

I would really like to just try it and see what happens. My other though was to carry the loco on and just ship the tender home as it is less fragile and will save significantly on shipping costs.

Thanks for your help and insight.

-David


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Put TSA into the search for this form, it will bring up lots of posts. We go through this every year a we get closer to Diamondhead.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
So,true....
Not only disallowed but one could have your locomotive confiscated by the TSA never to be seen again!


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## D&RGW 461 (Jun 4, 2009)

Definitely not worth the possible outcome. I would'nt take the chance.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 

I have the same problem of eventually transporting a live steamer to FL, and as I know the search function doesn't always work, I did a Google instead - it found the MLS threads: 

[url]http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/35/aft/113421/afv/topic/afpgj/5/Default.aspx [/b]
[url]http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/36078/afv/topic/Default.aspx[/b][/url]* 
*[url]http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/35325/afv/topic/Default.aspx[/b][/url]* 
*[url]http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx[/b][/url]* 

*Two of the relevant TSA responses are below: 
The TSA position is that if there are any flamable vapors detectable it is not going to allow the item to be cleared. Any trace of butane or meths will keep the item here. 

"Violations of the TSA requirements may not be viewed as willful, so there may not be any penalties except confiscation.

Note: CONFISCATION. Any trace of butane vapor and you don't get your engine back. 

[/b]The general opinion is that it isn't worth the risk. Most folk ship them to a friend by UPS ground, or have a pal take them by car. (P.S. Amtrak Auto-train doesn't have a problem - there's plenty of flammable vapors already in your car!)


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## Captain Dan (Feb 7, 2008)

It is all idiotic what TSA does with our steamers, but unfortunately our world has forever changed. We just have to deal with it. FedEx or UPS is really the best(?) option. Just 'over' pack.
Dan


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey guys, I'm not a live steamer, but I've had my lighters taken when I fly, even some packed in my check on bags.... that was after a screener said it would begin in a week! 
Anyway, what if you purged your tanks with nitrogen or other inert gas, run some through your lines and burners and then blow them out with air? Of course neatness counts, spills might linger. 

If TSA had a heart they'd have a gas wand where you could do your own check before becoming a threat behind the gates... Maybe if enough asked UPS could get the wands... 

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

If you check the threads linked above, Jerry was actively trying to get TSA to put a position on paper once and for all. But it seems that the local Supervisor has wide authority to do what he/she thinks is safe. No chance they'll ever get a heart, and I doubt the inert gas trick will work. Taking out the gas tank and mailing it to yourself was mooted, but vetoed as there may still be trace amounts of gas in the flues. 

[P.S. Despite the ban on gels and liquids, I can report that the Florida TSA at RSW airport confiscates 'solid' cream cheese ["spreadable gel" they told me,] but ALLOWS Key Lime Pie !! Can't get more like a gel than that !! 

Regarding UPS or Fedex - they also have policies against sending flammable material. It has been suggested that you declare the package contains a live steam engine - don't try to mislead them.


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

the answer is... you can't take a live steam engine on an airplane. TSA will seize it and it'll go into a back room. When the room gets full, they probably dump all that "stuff" into a dumpster and it goes to a land fill. Or maybe a public auction. A position paper would only work with the person giving it. (I don't care what the Court of Appeals said, this is my court!!).

As for water, use steam distilled water, 79 cents a gallon. Don't have your buddy in New Orleans send you a bottle of Mississippi River water.

Steam oil, buy the product. Don't use the "used motor oil" that Cousin Bubba gave you. I've read the threads about over oils that you could use...

I like my live steam engines and I want to keep them........and keep them running like they were designed to run...don't be "penny wise and pound foolish"

enough of my soap box

.


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## Geoffc (Dec 27, 2007)

I am going against some of the previous post to say that it is possible to bring your live steamer on the plane. I just returned from a trip to Germany where I went for the sole purpose of having a Mallet repaired (it was badly damaged by the shipping company when they sent it to me 3 weeks ago). First, you must contact the airline you plan to fly with to get the specific requirements for "carry-on" luggage- you would never want to check a locomotive in as "checked baggage." I believe the restriction in size for domestic carry-on luggage is around 22" X 13" X 10," and weight is restricted at 26-28 lbs. I was able to fit a SEG Mallet into a very protective camera case measuring 21.5 X 14 X 9 and it weighed in at just over 26 lbs. As for TSA security check- because I was flying international, I first went straight to the Customs Office at LAX and filled out a "Registration of Personal Property Form" #4457 and had it signed by the Officer on duty (they will want to inspect the locomotive and may want to see an invoice of some sort as well). From that point on, the flight to and from Germany went very smoothly- even with a transfer in Paris. As far as prepping the locomotive, I would make sure the boiler and fuel tank are completely empty- and yes they will rub your locomotive with a little "bomb-detecting" cloth swab, but it will not detect anything of concern. If you have any more specific questions about plane transport of steam locomotives please feel free to contact me- I did a lot of homework for the trip I just took. I could email you some pictures as well- just don't know how to post them here. Geoff


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

it is possible to bring your live steamer on the plane 
Geoff, 

No disputing that sometimes it can be done. The problem is: 
the local Supervisor has wide authority to do what he/she thinks 

Domestically, you could get lucky, or you could get a new TSA cop who wants to impress his supervisor. 

Or maybe a public auction 
I think I read an article about the amazing stuff that they auction after seizing it. It appears it goes to the states for disposal. 
http://www.gadling.com/2007/11/18/h...y-the-tsa/


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Aren't you kinda old to be playing with toy trains? * 


.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bill4373 on 11 Dec 2009 08:00 AM 

*Aren't you kinda old to be playing with toy trains? *


. 

*NO!*


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## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

hahahahahahahaha....exactly...older boys just need cooler toys...right?


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

I've done it, but I won't do it again. 

I've made three round trips with steam engines, twice to Ron Brown's in New York and once to Sacramento. Half the time they swabbed for explosives. The other times they did not even unwrap them. A simple-minded look (comes naturally), a live steam magazine in hand, and telling the scanners "toy trains" before the started squinting were all part of my strategy. 

BUT, the horror stories are mounting. When I was flying back from Sacramento, at the same airport, they refused to let another steamer bring his engine on -- he had to have a friend ship it back. 

TSA is staffed by well meaning but not particularly well trained (or necessarily very bright) minions who may well err on the side of caution. (The worst never-going-to-get-promoted-here cops I know transferred to TSA when it was "organized" and several became supervisors.) 

Since we are talking about your steam engine, which cost at least $400 and quite likely more ...In the words of Harry Callahan, "I've got just one question, punk, . . . do you feel lucky? Well, do you?" 

Sarcasm aside, ship or find a friend who is driving. The downside is just too dangerous. 

Regards, Mike


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## dhamilton (Jan 4, 2008)

Forget air travel. Take the train!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Try to carry your live steam Loco on when traveling by air..................







It has been done, but the odds are against you. Why take the chance. Even if they would let it through I would not want them digging around and through the engine, putting their sniffers on it, breaking detail off, dropping it, etc,. Go for it if you want to, but you have been warned.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 11 Dec 2009 11:50 AM 
Try to carry your live steam Loco on when traveling by air..................







It has been done, but the odds are against you. Why take the chance. Even if they would let it through security I would not want them digging around and through the engine







, putting their sniffers on it







, breaking detail off














, dropping it














, etc,. Go for it if you want to, but you have been warned.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I will ad my story about the time I was bringing home a model gasoline pump. Inspector saw gasoline and the supervisor was called immediately. That is how silly it can be and that was before 9-11.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

A friend flew with a bag full of five Citroen automobile suspension spheres....got some strange looks but sent on his way. 

My father got stopped recently, and they tore his bags apart without saying why. Then he remembered the multi postition rotory switches he bought.....


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## lenicheck (Jan 8, 2008)

Well, I guess I'm pushing the river here but I took my steamer on the plane with me to DH last year and am going to again this year. Going out of San Jose, CA they did not even open case (!). Coming back out of New Orleans they swabbed it and then let me have it back. I did, however, remove the gas tank and ship it separately both ways. It just seems to me that they have no leg to stand on if the gas tank is gone - if that's an option for you.


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## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks all for your contributions. I have talked met in person with a supervisor at the Rochester Airport. He had a chance to look at the loco and said it would be fine. I told him about the gas tank and he said that would not be permitted on the plane. However, he said that carrying the loco in the tool box would not be a problem. Once again Im sure it will depends from airport to airport, but I think the key is to just ask. The worst they can tell you is no. 

-David


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't take trains on a plane. However with that being said, Boeing got the Dream Liner 787 off the ground earlier today. How many signatures would it take to petition for LS storage?

Until then, build a good shipping cage and plan ahead. If you are taking one of your trains somewhere, chances are you know some close, or at least willing to help.

Case in point, Tom, who met a train in Slidelle and loaned his mini van, in the spirit of Live Steam Community. Live Steamers are a funky bunch, eccentric, devoted and authentic in their quirks; yet always willing to help a fellow brother in steam.

Not gonna make it to DH this year, however I am excited about getting a case of Cabin Fever and playing with the HORNBY. I'm not bringing anything in 1:32, just my OO Mallard and the eight customized Gresley Teaks tailed by a Pullman. I can't begin to tell you how fun it was playing with the cars and and failing at the diaphrams. I went through three misses before I found it, and in the spirit of the miss, three carriages have people in them. Her unveiling will be in York, however I tested it on the patio two summers ago and she looked awesome, like a snake flowing around the curves. I can't say this without sounding rude. Seeing her outside alone, felt kind of like masturbation. All I'm trying to say is steaming alone isn't as fulfilling as steaming with fans and community.

I appreciate the SSSLS (Super Small Scale Live Steam), a very small nitch. However, how many kids played played with HO trains? Which raises the question, What is the true gateway drug to Live Steam? An Accucraft Ruby or a Hornby OO set? I say both. My dream portable track includes a single loop of 250 rail with 2 passing sidings to act as steam up bays. Inside that is a single hand laid 1:32 slot car lane with adjustable power, then you can set it with a knob for a safe constiant speed. And finishing with an inner loop of be code 100 track, all flex for a sweeping loop for the Hornby. Just babbling about my dream track. "Build it and they will come." 

Mark and Peter, can't wait to shake your hands at CF. 

Until I babble again, Steam ON!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't get it! _Why take the chance?!!_ Yes, you _might_ get there with your engine....and then you might not! I would think this one's a no brainer!!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I have talked met in person with a supervisor at the Rochester Airport
David, 

Fine, as long as the same Supervisor is on duty - our general inpression is that the Supervisor has wide latitude to reject things he/she doesn't understand. 

Just make sure you have a plenty of time and a back-up plan if you try it. They won't confiscate it unless it is a bomb or a weapon - they will ask you if you want to check it. Then you go back out of security and implement the back-up plan. (Maybe a friend who is waiting to take your loco home and ship it to you - maybe you re-book on a later flight when 'your' Supervisor is on duty.)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 16 Dec 2009 07:45 AM 
I have talked met in person with a supervisor at the Rochester Airport
David, 

Fine, as long as the same Supervisor is on duty - our general inpression is that the Supervisor has wide latitude to reject things he/she doesn't understand. 

Just make sure you have a plenty of time and a back-up plan if you try it. They won't confiscate it unless it is a bomb or a weapon - they will ask you if you want to check it. Then you go back out of security and implement the back-up plan. (Maybe a friend who is waiting to take your loco home and ship it to you - maybe you re-book on a later flight when 'your' Supervisor is on duty.) 

Will that Supervisor be on duty at the other airport when you are ready to return home?


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## Chompers (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey Dave, I know its not ideal, but you are more than welcome to leave you engine at my house over christmans break. wouldn't be too difficult to get it here. 

also if you do decide to carry-on and they wont accept it you could have it shipped here.- would hate to see the f-5 get junked


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## dbwenrichjr (Jul 31, 2008)

Well I am sitting in the Rochester airport, steamer in hand, eating a quick lunch. I had no troubles at all. Granted I shipped the tender home, but I am able to carry on the fragile loco and keep it out of UPS's destructive hands. I am going to try to make the gas tank removable for future flights so that I can carry both tender and loco on in the future and just ship the fuel tank. 

Thanks to everyone for your input. I think for those interested in traveling with a steamer it warrants investigation with your local TSA personnel. 

Today I did not even get a chance to meet with the TSA supervisor I spoke with last week. However, I requested to see a supervisor as soon my boarding pass was checked. He just wanted to make sure he could see it in plain sight in the scanner. We did that and he sent it through and he said, "You're all set!" 

Cant wait to steam it up in the back yard for a few weeks  

-David


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

How to use TSA rules to your advantage. I thought this was kind of interesting for you frequent flyers. It may require the investment in a Pelican case... 

http://lifehacker.com/5448014/pack-a-gun-to-protect-valuables-from-airline-theft-or-loss


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff
Not quite sure how this helps with our trains. They still can search, lose or damage them with a toss in the cargo hole, etc. Secondly, having read the blog on the procedure with a search of item could it not result in detection of banned substance (ex- butane) and thus taken?
Might need a bit more clarification.


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## Trainwreckfilms (Aug 19, 2009)

if you ever need it shipped to San Jose /San Francisco your more than welcome to ship anything at my house. I always have someone here at the house. And you could do a first warm up steam up at the house with my 800FT of track. Dont you love the Welcoming arms of the Garden Railroading Community?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, That was the whole point, THEY LOCK your case and give YOU the key. From that point on it is given special treatment, or so they imply. 
As I originally said it was just " interesting." These guys ship photography equipment around the world that cost many times what even our most expensive engines cost, And they don't want it thrown around.


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

I invested in a pelican case for my two engines. I was able to get my Forney and C-19 into the case, locked it up, paid way too much to have it shipped form California to New York, but everything arrived safe and sound. Just the C-19's exhaust pipe from the dynamo broke off, but that was my own fault in the way I packed the engine. It was clear from the outside of the case that UPS really banged it up, and even stood on the case... so I'm glad I bought it.

I'm still not sure I'd want to take it on the plane... the risk of confiscation is still enough to scare me away from trying.

- Anthony


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

A trick I learned back in the day when I was shipping expensive model trains via UPS or FEDEX, was to write on the outside in large bold letters "NO BELTS" on at least three of the longest sides. The conveyor belts at these sorting facilities can move a box at 35mph, with a sudden stop and then 3 foot drop. That phrase plus the red fragile breakable stickers ensured that everything arrived safely as the boxes would be moved manually in sorting. (I declared glass because of the sight galss on the boiler!) But I could never get less than five day service because I opted to make them conduct a slower delivery. 

Scott


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Use a private cargo service, courier service, or private executive jet service (CEOs, celebrities, lotto winners, etc. use; stowed in the belly) traveling your route; your precious never has to mix with riff-raff packages. You will get the very best of white glove handling and service, door-to-door. 

If you have to ask how much, you cannot afford it. But real piece of mind, is priceless. 

Now at least you know there are other means. Go for it!


*;-D *


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, is that how you ship your engines...??


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 23 Feb 2010 07:18 AM 
Chris, is that how you ship your engines...?? 
Well, Jeff:
Yes, but they are fourth on my list.

First, is a common carrier (UPS, FedEx (my favorite)).

Second, take the Bus. _*GREYHOUND*_ PackageExpress. 

Third, I ship the loco, myself. First I pack the loco, lots of foam and very carefully. Then I pack myself in a much larger strong box holding the loco package, tightly. I'm just as careful when packing myself, lots of foam. The real secret is three snorkels, a primary and two backups (reduncancy); each snorkel is routed to a different side of the box - you never know what's going to happen. Oh yes, I also pack a lunch and a warm coat. One more detail, I always ship myself by overnight arrive before 10:00 AM. Don't want to stay in that box too long without a shower.

My experience, just my experience; net net, bottom line, last and final answer.... It's 95% packing, 5% the carrier.


*;-D*


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, correct packing is the secret, which is why the Pelican case may be a good investment IF you travel with your engines frequently. But what I was really asking was, did you have personal experience with the use of "a private cargo service"? Was wondering how the price differed from common carriers, and do you have to hand deliver it to the airport? any security involved? etc.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a common carrier (UPS, FedEx (my favorite)) 
Back when I worked with computers we had to ship PCs all over the place. Fedex was the worst for damage - maybe those conveyor belts have something to do with it. (I concluded their processes were geared to envelopes, so metal in boxes got a hard time.) UPS was much better and the PC survived most of the time.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had pretty good success with UPS, but most of my friends in the RC airplane world use Greyhound Package.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 24 Feb 2010 07:35 AM Chris, correct packing is the secret, which is why the Pelican case may be a good investment IF you travel with your engines frequently. But what I was really asking was, did you have personal experience with the use of "a private cargo service"? Was wondering how the price differed from common carriers, and do you have to hand deliver it to the airport? any security involved? etc. Well, 


I have custom cases made for my locos that double as storage, carrying and occasionally shipping inside a larger box with foam; think how Accucraft locos arrive. They're heavy duty PTE(?) plastic, reinforced edging and corners. I've standardized on two sizes; long 42", short 36", that any 1:19, 1:20 or 1:32 loco will fit in. A big loco engine and tender go separately. One case would be too heavy and sometimes have to be 48" or longer. Mine are lift off type; ~3-4" bottom, ~8" top. I never was any good lifting the loco out of a regular box with a lid, worse putting it back in. Extra space in a case with a tender comes in handy for packing my lunch or a change of underwear (steaming supplies actually). 


Pelican cases are really great, but when I checked a few years ago they were really $$$ then for a custom made one. Hats off to you for going Pelican; shows how much you "Love" your locos. You must tuck them in at night too... ? (sorry it's attitudinal afraid.)


I've never used 2-4, ;-)) So I really have no idea their cost. It was kind-of a tease seeing as how everyone is always looking for the perfect shipper. I just went off the deep end, which is not unusual (as many readers here can atest). Although Greyhound seems like they might be a good choice since it just gets tossed under the bus (poor choice of words, hmmmmm?) 


Everything I've ever ordered from Dell arrives FedEx and never a scratch on the box, or on the item inside. Back when monitors weighted 50+lbs and were real touchy for adjustments that's saying a lot. 


I don't know, maybe it's just my luck with shipping. I have no horror stories myself, only stories when a private party shipped something to me poorly packed.


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