# RDC-3 window problem



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just working on mine, got it on Saturday.

While opening it up to install a QSI (full report later, but what a wiring nightmare) I noticed that the windows seem to be made of 2 layers of plastic, just touching.

There are what seems to be air bubbles trapped between the 2 layers:










Anyone else noticed this?

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I always wondered who ended up with the LGB Bubble Car technology. 
Now we know. 

When the wires get hot, the medium holding the bubbles liquifies, and the bubbles start moving. 
Whatreya, new? 

Design Consideration!


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
I noticed it on mine as well....I thought it was moisture at first from outdoor humidity but after leaving it inside in dry air the 'wet spots' are still there. They move around if I press my finger against the window. I was wondering if it may be the types of plastic used but having heard whats involved to take it apart I decided to leave it until I have another reason to get inside. 

Regards
Gary


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I remove the thin layer of clear plastic and replace it with tinted plastic as used in loose leaf index markers, makes tinted windows. Nick jr


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick jr, I've done this too for tinted windows. 

Works very well. Although I did this in HO scale to give my Santa Fe Hi-Level cars a blue tint like the prototype had.

HO scale Hi-Level Coach


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

It was a little more difficult on the 3 than on the 1 as more hot glue was used to hold the window plastic in place, worth the extra effort at I like the look. I also gutted the 1, put in the LED lighting and now have seats for the 1 and passengers for both. Nick jr


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

It's not a bad attempt at reproducing an Adlake double pane "breather" window sash with a failed breather, only the whole window should be fogged with streaks from the top down. A friend used to have a Budd dome that he never could get the breathers to work properly. After a while the dome sash had water in between the glass. He gave up and told everyone it was added intensionally as an inclinometer. 

Actually it looks like polycarbonate film thats de-laminateting after being flexed. The crystal-clear squeeze bottles for condiments will do the same type of thing after repeated use.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

HMMMMMMMMMMM, Just pulled out my 2 and they have the same condition. ooooo well i will leave them as is because i want to populate them and i think the tinted windows would affect how well you see the people.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it's just 2 pieces of plastic either touching or an air bubble between. I have to say I am not impressed. Now we have an interior, so now that there is something to look at inside, I get bubbles and wires. 

Well, good to know it's not a unique defect, and no use in sending to Aristo. 

Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 28 Sep 2010 12:43 PM 
and i think the tinted windows would affect how well you see the people.

It doesn't have too much affect if you use thin material.

Seeing as I did it in HO scale and didn't have much distortion from "tinting" I doubt there would be much of any distortion in 1:29 scale. 



I don't want to get too off topic as the main issue here is Aristo's clear flaw with the windows, but below are two close up photos of the HO coach with plastic folder material used for tinting showing the people inside:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The tinting is pretty mild, and with the LED lighting so bright, I don't see that it has to be a problem. I guess I need to find a single sheet of tinted material. Boy, the "new" hot glue is weird, it's rubbery at room temperature... 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't know, Greg, if it were me I would give Aristo a call about the windows. It may take them a little bit of time to figure out what they want to do with them, but I think they will make them good. What do you have to lose by giving them a call??

Ed


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Strange only two folks have made mention of this. Guess because the rest are AC folks and do not want to rock the boat







. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Greg? 
Calling AC? 

Really? 


Depends on what he calls them...oh, wait, can't say that.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll email Navin... I don't really want to talk to anyone at Aristo after the nasty post (of lies) directed at me personally on their site by their president. 

What I have to lose is my temper! 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Now Now calm down my boy. Just cause Ed said call AC







. Do we really thing there is a resolution to the problem? Not likely but it's a good thought tho. Later RJD


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
Funny how we spend $$$ on there products and are not allowed to expect quality. I have heard of others being told to be nice or don't come back. Seems some haven't heard our hobby has limited numbers?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By todd55whit on 28 Sep 2010 05:31 PM 
Greg 
Funny how we spend $$$ on there products and are not allowed to expect quality. I have heard of others being told to be nice or don't come back. Seems some haven't heard our hobby has limited numbers? Well be good or be gone i always say.................................


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 28 Sep 2010 02:12 PM 
I don't know, Greg, if it were me I would give Aristo a call about the windows. It may take them a little bit of time to figure out what they want to do with them, but I think they will make them good. What do you have to lose by giving them a call??

Ed

Not a thing, cause they won't answer anyway !


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 28 Sep 2010 05:08 PM 
Now Now calm down my boy. Just cause Ed said call AC







. Do we really thing there is a resolution to the problem? Not likely but it's a good thought tho. Later RJD 

Now be careful RJ you could be black BALLED sir for talkin to the enmy................ Bad Boy Bad Boy.......... he he he


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Please dont hate the player Hate the Game I luv you GUYS


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Just got back from Marty's today and noticed this post. Last week when I converted my RDC to RC and battery I took note of the lousy window glazing. It looks to me like the factory didn't have the right thickness plastic to fit the aluminum grooves so they just made do with two layers of thin plastic. Anyway,on the windows in the passenger cabin I ripped out the two layer plastic, the ugly overused hot glue and replaced it with .040 (1 mm) clear butyrate from Plastruct that I had left from a previous project. I cut it into 1 3/32 strips and it will just slide into the groves on the body. Looks 1000% better. Some USA passengers and all is well. It should have been this way in the first place.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Paul! I'll look up Plastruct and see if they also have some lightly tinted plastic... If I don't go clear, I'll have to research the tinting the Santa Fe used if anything. 

Update, searched their site, found 2 part numbers for 0.040 clear sheet, and says discontinued. Drat. 


Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg,

I did a real quick search on the Walthers website and found three potential clear window materials in .040 thickness. Best thing is all are in stock as of my search.


I hope this link works, as sometimes Walthers prohibits links:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/search...ds=restrict&instock=Q&split=300&Submit=SearchClear Window Material



I'm not sure about Santa Fe RDC window tinting, but I can check for you. I have a book all about the Santa Fe RDCs with color photos so I'm sure I'll be able to find one for you showing whatever color tinting they used.


In the mean time, here is a photo of the Hi-Levels showing their window tinting color. The Hi-Levels came around the same time the RDCs did to the Santa Fe so the window tinting could have been similar.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Matt! The link worked... would think I would probably want to go with the polycarbonate, most scratch resistant, don't you think? I am not familiar with "copolyester" will have to research. 

The color in your picture looks familiar... light bluish or sometimes greenish tint... I've never seen the older cars with a smoke gray tint. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
Go to the Plastruct website. I order all my plastics online direct from them. Having their printed catalog is also handy. There is so much more stuff in the catalog that you will never see in a hobby shop. They do list some tinted sheets in light blue,light green,red,transparent white,medium gray and bronze. The clear sheets come in several different types of plastic. The butyrate that I used is tough stuff that is a little flexible. As an example they list clear sheets in copolyester, acrylic, butyrate, and styrene.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I need to go back and dig into their system. The only butyrate sheets I found were all discontinued. Will look under the other stuff, but I think styrene is not good in the sunlight. Since this is a nice easy application, I was looking for the most scratch-resistant stuff I could find to resist handling damage. 

Thanks! (see you in November?) 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
It could be that it has been discontinued. It was May 2007 when I ordered it. The stock number was SSM-104 or 91204 and you are right, I just looked it up and that item is now discontinued. Maybe the copolyester might be a good choice. SSC-104 or 91252 And if you order, get one of their catalogs,well worth it.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Plastruct

SSC-104...........Copolyester Clear: .040" x 7" x 12"
SSC-10424........Copolyester Clear: .040" x 12" x 24"
SSC-10436........Copolyester Clear: .040" x 12" x 36"

SSM-104.......Butyrate Clear; .040" 7" x 12" - Discontinued
SSM-10412....Butyrate Clear; .040" 12" x 12" - Discontinued

CCAS-104.........Cast Acrylic Clear; .040" x 7" x 12"
CCAS-10430......Cast Acrylic Clear; .040" x 15" x 30"


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately I couldn't find any info if the Santa Fe RDCs had tinted windows or not. The few color photos I have are inconclusive. Too hard to tell because there are window shades that really make it hard to see if the windows were tinted or not. 

My guess is they had a very slight blue tint on the side windows only. The cab windows appear clear. According to the book I have the windows were made by Pittsburgh Plate Glass Company, but no mention is made as to tinting.


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

The most common color of window tint in streamlined passenger equipment was Solex (green) usually in the 80% transmission range. Why ? Solex glass had a very low heat gain with excellent light transmission qualities that didn't unbalance colors in the scenery. Amtrak started using a darker smoke tint in the late 1970's to further cut heat gain. The older AC systems were temperamental at best and needed all the help they could get to stay cool. 

Matt, the blue tint in you photos is most likely the florescent lighting in the cars shining through the solex green with a bit of dye fade in the slide. 

Scroll down for a color sample here: 

http://www.ppg.com/corporate/ideascapes/resglass/homeowners/product/Pages/ProdInfoSolarControl.aspx 

Here is a website with some history and dates: 

http://products.construction.com/Manufacturer/PPG-Architectural-Glass-NST510/overview 

No affiliation to the site BTW.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's great info, and the green tint plus the florescent lighting coming out bluish makes sense to me. All the old glass I have seen on the Santa Fe seemed to be greenish (and faded!). 

Since my models, M191 and M192 were retired in 1968 or so, the smoke tint as delivered by Aristo should be changed anyway. 

You guys are great, will be looking for a light green tint... (of course it will make my task harder ha ha!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Greg,*
* I picked mine up last weekend and doesn't have any window problems. I do have a solution for you. Just weather it real heavy! I was just in a real RDC at a train museum and you should see the bubbles in that glass *







Thanks Rex[/b]


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Rex did you pick up at Mary's? Later RJD


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Have any of you guys thought about putting automobile window tinting film on the plastic? It comes in about 900 tint colors and densities...and it's applied with water...no adhesives.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Kidmans has GREAT deals , its worth the drive just for them...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike for the tip. May check it out as we have a place in town and they have done all my vehicles. May be able to pick up some scraps. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did email Navin at Aristo about the problem, and it has been addressed in the Aristo forum. The recommendation is to remove one of the pieces of plastic. 

They intend to correct the problem (in an unspecified manner) in future production. 

I also suggested they consider the Solex green color to be more prototype and to use only one piece of plastic, not 2 pieces that can get junk in between. My research comes up with the same data as "pfdx" and seems that most of the RDC's were "going away" in the 70's, therefore, in my mind, the green tint would be better than the smoke tint provided. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

A single thickness of the plastic is ok in the smaller windows which is how it comes but a single thickness in the larger windows will be very flimsy. One finger poke and it will most likely be done.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm going to pull mine apart again and see what can be done. Your comment is well taken Paul. 

I'm going to wait a while, because I have other issues I want to address. The wiring and visibility of it is making me crazy. I'm considering changing it so everthing is at the floor level and the socket is back underneath. The only wires to the roof will be the smoke unit, led lighting, speaker, just 6 wires. Right now if you count the wires that connect to the top/roof boards, you have the end cap lighting, the motors, the track pickups, and the mu plugs, so that's 10 wires at each end, 20 wires, and then you have the bundle of wires up to the 4 sockets in a row, that's 10 more... 

So 30 wires into the "roof" will be replaced by 6 wires and keep everything on the chassis.. (smoke, lights, speaker).. plus you can get to the "socket" by loosening 2 screws on one of the "boxes" underneath. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
You are right about the wiring. When I converted mine to Airwire and battery I removed a whole lot of it. I now only have four wires going to the roof of the passenger compartment.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, sounds like a plan! I guess you are not using the smoke unit on battery? Not many people do I suppose. 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, if you go on the Aristo forum, under the General Forum, Lewis Polk addesses the issue of the RDC-3 windows, and offers a reasonable moderate solution to the problem. You might want to check that out and see what he has to say.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... Ed, I emailed Navin, he forwarded my suggestions to Lewis... 

The "back door" communication is working... and I'm very aware of EVERYTHING posted on that site... 

But thanks, I did forward some more solutions, we will see if they "pop" up over there!!! 

For everyone's reference, that thread is 2 below Lewis's SECOND posting on the thread where his FIRST post says: 

"I will not comment further on this, but either you understand or you don’t wish to. " 

On today's post (what happened to keeping your word?) He says no further comments are required too... and Rocky posted after that... 



Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep some folks need to watch what they say in various places. They Tend to get caught and have to back peddle very rapidly. 

I did check out my local tint folks and they do have a wide varity of tint available in 1 ft strips. When My car arrives I will remove the windows and take to them to match up to make it look right. Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, I don't mean to be dense, (although my wife often says I am!), but what post of Lewis's are you talking about???? I"m talking about the post titled "RDC-3 Windows" under the General Forum. There are no comments about "not talking about this further" or any other posts on this thread. I'm not sure what post you are talking about.

Ed


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
The leads are just for the lights. Two for power and two for the on/off switch. I could have got that down to three or just two if I wanted to power the lights from a function key on the Airwire. I don't run smoke units in my diesels. The headlights and red warning lights have been connectorized in the end sections to make for easy shell removal. Also the headlights were changed to 5mm leds. I also sprayed the interior seats and then hand painted some white head rests before adding passengers.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was thinking that the seats were kind of flimsey, was thinking of getting the "factory divots" out of them, and then filling with some of that expanding foam. 

Then I could glue people down without crushing the seats... just a thought. 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
The seats are flimsy but they work ok . You won't have any trouble gluing people to them.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I was searching through the Plastruct catalog and found some very interesting possibilities for tinted RDC windows.

Take a look at the "Tinted Mirror Sheet"

Comes in .040 and in multiple colors. Green is an available color.


Plastruct Tinted Mirror Sheet, Green


Of course it is discontinued









And I haven't seen what it looks like in person so I don't know if it is see through or not.


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