# 2.4GHZ Range/Reliability



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I just completed an installation of a RailBoss Plus in an Accucraft Goose No. 2. The RailBoss and 2.4GHZ receiver (a generic DSM variety) were installed in the truck body ( a brass metal box) with no precautions to expose the little 1" antenna or be concerned about orientation, etc. It is literally just laying in there, wherever it ends up. Tony Walsham has previously reported excellent results with 2.4GHZ in a metal box, but now I have seen it for myself. Amazing! No difference in range or performance than when installed in plastic. Any by range, I mean it will still work several houses away from my layout, while traveling through rock lined tunnels and [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Del, 
Most of us in Live Steam have been using 2.4GHZ for many years now. 
I never seen or had a problem and we stick them in a lot of places. 
I have even glued the antennas directly to brass interior cab. 
Never a problem with range.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

2.4 GHz seems not only immune to RFI, but also immune to motor line interference. There is no need for RF chokes to suppress motor "noise". 
2.4 GHz completely eliminates the "glitching" of servos in Live Steam locos such that 2.4 GHz is now the frequency of choice for Live Steam locos World wide.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Del, 

I'm guessing you live in a city environment, with homes fairly close to one another... 
I live in a open rural spot - several homes could cover a mile or more...!! 

As such can you put a distance in feet that relates to your effective range as you stated above? 

THX, Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Does anyone know if the current rating will be increased into the 8 - 10 amp ranges for those of us with big road locos - 12 axle types? 


Dirk 
DMS Ry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By SD90WLMT on 27 Mar 2012 10:17 PM 
Del, 

I'm guessing you live in a city environment, with homes fairly close to one another... 
I live in a open rural spot - several homes could cover a mile or more...!! 

As such can you put a distance in feet that relates to your effective range as you stated above? 

THX, Dirk 
DMS Ry. 





200 to 300 feet easy, with homes, fences, and rock work between the Tx and Rx. My yard is about 100 feet wide and I can easily control my locos from anywhere. I only leave the yard for these tests once in awhile just to see how far I can go and still maintain control. Out in the open, you should be able get even better range. Also keep in mind, I am using the "Park Flyer" variety of receivers, which are lower power than the "Full Range" receivers which when flying a $10K to $20K R/C airplane, may be more desirable.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk, 
When you say 12 axle I assume you mean 2 x 6 axle locos such as the Sd-45 etc? 
Are you looking to power two ganged together with just one ESC?


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## David Buckingham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Del 
I also have 2.4 in a brass Accucraft Goose 2 with Dels Railboss and a clone RX works very well. 

I was worried about the brass box but have had no trouble. 

All my speed controls on the RC locos are now Del Tapparos as I find they give the best control at low speed. 

So good I will be Demonstrating them on my display at various exhibitions. 

Dave in England


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Tony, 

Can I claim tired and ... My bad! I was thinking out loud 12 wheels - so ya,... a SD70 or SD40/45 loco type. 
I run a amp meter and have "seen" just over 7 amps load - 3.5 per motor while it pulls a long train - ( 50 - 70 Cars ).. Looking for a way to manage that much current yet I do not want to run the receiver near it's limits. I do have a 35 amp ESC in a SD60T, for 4 motors in 1 loco!! It runs well below the max. rating of the ESC. 

There are 2 problems with ESC's. One is voltage limits, I run at 18 volts. The other is no Reverse generally available, in current ranges I would like to use. 
I would like to operate at a nominal 5 amp load on the locos, below the max rating, yet not over working the ESC. Reason why I asked about a working range of 8-10 amps for a board.. 

Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Dirk - With either Tony's controls or mine (G-Scale Graphics), you can simply purchase two controls to double the current rating. One control for each pair of motors. My RailBoss controls are all rated for 5 amps continuous rating, the control can easily provide more amps for short transients.
I have sold many controls for diesels, although I don't have any data or specifics. All I know is nobody has ever complained about not having enough current capacity to date (with one 5 amp control). 

(And I absolutely HATE this )(*^)*&^ so called editor!)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dirk. 
Another way of doing it is to add just an extra RCS motor driver part, one for each motor block, and control both of them with one RX/decoder part. 
This has two advantages. 
1). The speed control would be exactly the same for both motor drivers. 
2). The cost would be less expensive than two complete systems. 

I have nothing on the RCS website about it at the moment but I will be advertising it soon.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks to you both. 

Picture this thought. 

4 locos 
all under a single control - 
each carries it's own batteries 
each could have a single ESC or multiple ones ...? 
There could be a single receiver or 2 or 4 ... 
I am not interested in single operation, but want to set up a 4 unit set. 
locos will pull 50-55-60 cars ( 200 - 220 - 240 cars per set ) 
Sound in lead loco only - bell & whistle,............I could go with a smaller separate control for these 2 functions, pocket sized.. 
All locos will have engine ( speed driven ) and air compressor sound 
If the nominal current usage is 5 amps, I would want drivers that can handle about 8-10 amps. Trying to reduce "heat" generated 
This creates something near 50 % - 60% load. 
Each loco will pull about 50 - 60 % of max load. 
And of course overall cost is an issue and why I am working on a balanced system to run the above described setup of locos.. 
All by a single operator! 

And if you both would like to go off line with this - please say so, we can!! 

I have My means and a Goal in mind for all this effort!!!! 

Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And I'm pretty sure I will require at least 300 ft. as a minimum distance in range also. 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Tony, 

what is the... 1 X only BB-12-45 12 amp ESC ? 

Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 28 Mar 2012 08:05 PM 
Tony, 

what is the... 1 X only BB-12-45 12 amp ESC ? 

Dirk 
DMS Ry. 

Hi Dirk.

That is a sample 12 amp ESC from a robotics supplier that I tried out with a view to possibly importing them for sale in Australia.
It is a single stick centre off ESC that actually works quite well. Although speed control is not as precise as with my regular ESC's. There are no lighting outputs and the PWM frequency is quite low so there is some motor hum.
The biggest hurdle for me was the iffy supply situation. They are made in spasmodic batches. Not reliable enough for me as a dealer.
Still, they are one of the few brushed motor ESC's still available that can handle up to 24 volts.

I will be delighted to answer your other queries off line via my direct E Mail. [email protected]


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

to your effective range 
I have two live steamers with the rcvrs inside brass tenders. Both have adequate range - I've never seen them fail to respond at 50-100'. One is a Spectrum AR6200 (with the two antennas - both squashed into the back of the tender and within 3" of each other,) and the other is an 'orange' ar6100 look-alike.


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## mwiz64 (Apr 6, 2012)

from my RC flying experience, the only time you're going to have problems with 2.4 reception is if you place the RX antenna inside carbon fiber. since I don't believe many locomotives use CF you guys should be good up to about 2 miles... deepening on TX output. We get about 2 miles with our RC plane gear.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 27 Mar 2012 08:36 PM 
I just completed an installation of a RailBoss Plus in an Accucraft Goose No. 2. The RailBoss and 2.4GHZ receiver (a generic DSM variety) were installed in the truck body ( a brass metal box) with no precautions to expose the little 1" antenna or be concerned about orientation, etc. It is literally just laying in there, wherever it ends up. Tony Walsham has previously reported excellent results with 2.4GHZ in a metal box, but now I have seen it for myself. Amazing! No difference in range or performance than when installed in plastic. Any by range, I mean it will still work several houses away from my layout, while traveling through rock lined tunnels and [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 


If you ran on DCC, you wouldn't ever have to worry about range!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you run track powered DCC, since the signal travels in the rails, there's never a range issue, if you have rail, you have signal. That is quite an advantage, a DCC decoder can be placed in a totally sealed metal enclosure too. 

That is one of the reasons I went DCC. 

Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); I run via radio control, 2.4GHZ, and I DON'T worry about range. I also don't worry about a power outage, track continuity, or batteries exploding.

And by the way, the way the only time I ever used the handheld device shown, I had to teach the owner how to use it.

Also, "If you have rail, you have rail, you have signal". Really? Only if you have continuity, do you have a signal! And this takes some work.

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

What he said. 

Just because there are some proprietary battery R/C systems on the market that still have range and reliability issues, it doesn't mean all of them do. 

Loss of range is primarily due to RFI from the motor(s) which in the past has required complicated motor "noise" suppression. No such problems any more with 2.4 GHz R/C equipment. You plug it in, turn it on and voilà, it works.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

@ Mike and Greg, what about getting the signal from the handheld controller to the base station? Since we're talking specifically about _wireless_ control systems, you've got to use a wireless handheld to control the DCC for the comparison to be fair. Since they operate on the same frequencies, they're subject to the same potential for interference. From most accounts, it's really a non-issue on _all_ fronts since we moved away from the woefully inadequate 27 and 75mHz stuff from 20 years ago. Both the 900mHz and 2.4gHz bands have by and large proven well-suited and interference-free for our purposes. 

I would suggest, however, that for all the advantages that DCC may offer in certain arenas, it's quite ill-suited for those of us who run live steam.  

Later, 

K


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## D-n-H - Kirkville Branch (Jan 14, 2008)

if you run track power dcc there's another disadvantage, bringing your train to run at other people houses, battery r/c has the advantage of not worrying about where you can run, the condition of the track where you run, and how the other people run their trains where you go to run. granted you can show off that nice controller, however most of us like to see running engines  

r/c, dcc, and dc all have advantages and disadvantages some have more some have less 

personally it comes down to money for me $9 rx and $10 ESC and I'm off and running and not to the bank


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll select a well known DCC system. 

First the antennas on the base stations are bigger and unobstructed, since they do not have to be hidden in a loco. 

Also, they are not moving 

Also they do not have local interference from motors and electronics. 

In the case of the NCE system, it has multiple base stations, so you can cover a much larger area, you do not need to be to the locomotive. In the case of the NCE system, you can have 31 base stations and easily cover the area of a football field and much greater if you wanted to move to the extreme part of the range. 

Focusing on the frequency is really important for "rc" systems because the antenna MUST be near the locomotive motor and electronics and the antenna likewise. 

Track powered DCC has no such issues, and remember you can add more base stations as your physical railroad grows, and you do not have to be near your locomotive nor accessory controllers (like switch machines) 

Therefore, anywhere you have rails, you have signal. 

That's just a partial list of advantages, also things like consistent power, i.e. no problems with low batteries reducing the range of the receiver... 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I'd have to say that why would I go to some ones house to run my DCC trains if he runs only battery power. Basically I buy my trains to suit me and my needs. which is DCC. Later RJD


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know how many times it has to be mentioned but 2.4 GHz is IMPERVIOUS to RFI normally associated with "noise" created by the electric motors in moving large scale locos. Range is simply no longer an issue. Period.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

And also, reliable track power is not always a simple thing to achieve, especially with aluminum rail outdoors. A wonderful DCC system is only as good as the track's conductivity. If you can afford to use nickle silver or stainless rail, I guess that's not a problem, but brass, and especially aluminum rail are not so forgiving.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually DCC, due to constant voltage on the rails is very tolerant of conductivity. Other systems that work on voltage are sensitive. Any rail that is giving you enough power to move a train will be good enough for DCC, basically. 

This information about conductivity is, sorry to say, an old wives tale. 10 years ago DCC systems were very finicky, and there have been many lessons learned. 

The DCC signal is modulated in time, not in voltage, so it's "signal" cannot be corrupted by fluctuating voltage, which is all conductivity issues can do. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you said it, "10 years ago DCC systems were very finicky, and many lessons have been learned." The same holds true for R/C systems. DCC has plenty of merits upon which it can firmly stand. But range and RF interference issues are no longer among them. New technology has addressed them. Many lessons have been learned. 

Later, 

K


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I wouldn't question the reliability of DCC control in general, but the track itself would be the source of any problems due to conductivity problems at the joints. If you have good conductivity throughout the track, I'm sure that DCC is quite effective. I don't think I'd want to use it on aluminum rail outdoors due to rail joint conductivity issues. I think it would be more of a pain than it's worth to use DCC with aluminum rail. At least with brass rail, you can manage to get good connections without too much hassle.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

DCC is less subject to these issues than straight DC for the reasons I explained above. 

From a practical perspective, if you have issues delivering power to the rail, then you have issues, regardless of the system you are using, DC, DCC, track powered RC, etc. 

Again, the point is that DCC does not operate on a voltage level, it depends on the timing of a signal, which is unchanged if there is a voltage drop. The analog is like the migration from AM radio to FM radio. 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Hmmmm - interesting. We started out on a thread here in the RC/BAttery operations section, and now we are into a DCC vs. RC discussion. I could have sworn that in another thread it was pointed out that only the battery folks throw issues into DCC threads. Just wanted to point out that the street seems to run both ways. 

Ed


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

On the playground, they call it "Payback"  

I no longer having to worry about how I power or modulate my track. This week, the AC line going to the layout was removed during some rework for the pond. Of course I could always drag out the extension cord, the power supply, and scrub the track for who knows how long if a friend with a track powered loco drops by.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Ed, you missed the thread where coming into a track power/cleaning thread it was ok to say "just get batteries"... since it is now embraced as humorous, then the "humor" goes both ways. 

It is now INDEED going to run both ways. 

Greg 

p.s. I just ran an AC line out to the back yard to support the chargers for my friends who run batteries


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

And feel free to do just that. As long as we are just discussing pros and cons of different control methods in a factual manner, it can only be educational to all concerned. Why do they have to learn all the bits and pieces in separate threads?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, turning every track or battery thread into a pros and cons will be a mess in my opinion. I don't believe it is the best way to help people with specific questions, like how do I clean my track, and the answer is battery. 

But I'm happy to go with the flow, as long as there is at least an attempt by this forum/web site to be impartial. 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I have abandoned 27Mhz and shifted up to 2.4Ghz. This has nothing to do with range -but more the number of channels that I can have from my TX. Most of my models are different to the norm and although I have had to simplify their operation I still need the additional ease of extra channels. The FELL loco requires; A throttle, A fwd/rev gear selector, A fill/drain pump selector, A brake selector. With my background of computer systems design I can use a PIC to automate most of the onboard control problems -but the problem remains that I only have two thumbs! 

The next "Quantum Leap" locomotive will require at least 6 channels; A throttle, A fwd/rev gear selector, A fill /drain pump selector, A Starter Motor to Alternator selector, A Fuel pump rate control, A Brake selector... 

For me, track power could *never* be an option. Here in the Peak District they build a lot of reservoirs and the ground water has a HIGH mineral content.... 

As to the range of 2.4Ghz equipment I have never had any problems with it. It functions all over the garden (which is quite large for a UK garden) I have never known any form of glitching or interference and I would recommend it as a good frequency to use. The RX and ESC systems are more problematical as there are so many vendors to choose from. For my 16mm scale models I use "Electronize" and for my Gauge '3' models I use "Dimension Engineering". This has more to do with the "complexity" of the model rather than the amount of power the ESC can deliver. The "Electronize" is a very nice and simple fwd/rev -which is all 16mm scale model needs and the "Dimension Engineering" has a direct serial input slot which I can interface the PIC to. Without the serial interface locos such as my NER EE-1 develop horrific wheel spin without the motor load feedback loop and accelerometer. 

regards 

ralph


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Way too complex for me, Ralph!  I'm happy if I can just get them to go in the direction that I want them to at the speed I want them to. But then, I don't have any live steam engines to control...yet.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, not trying to convert you to track power, but why does the ground water mineral content affect your ability for track power? Is the water oozing up out of the ground and continually flooding your track and then drying and leaving deposits? 

I'm really trying to come up with a scenario where that is happening. I'm 100% positive you have a scientific explanation, so please "lay it on me" as they say! 

Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 May 2012 07:30 PM 
... I don't believe it is the best way to help people with specific questions, like how do I clean my track, and the answer is battery. ...



Yes, a battery doesn't answer that specific question, but it is a solution to the problem. By far, the biggest problem for a newcomer to getting a train to run is electrical continuity to the motor. They need to know there are alternatives (granted, with a different set of challenges). But they need to be aware of the choices. I'm not saying we should be attacking each other's control choices in every post, but a mention once in awhile, along with a smiley face, shouldn't start a range war either.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Greg.... 

*I live in the Peak District in Derbyshire...* This part of the world is famous for the number of reservoirs, wells and springs that litter the area!!! There is (possibly) 30cm of topsoil before I hit impervious Derbyshire Millstone Grit or Bunter Sandstone. The ground thus stays wet for very long periods of time. Added to this there are the famous "petrifying wells" and waterfalls... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrifying_well 

So, you have ground water for extended periods of time with a high conductivity due to dissolved minerals that will willingly deposit themselves on evaporation. This is also the reason why "The Midland Mainline" cannot be electrified as the ground current from the locos conducts too easily. I cannot use track power unless I wait three days for the ground to dry out sufficiently to stop me "tripping" RCDs on my domestic power boards... Thus powered by track locos *cannot* be used -and I use self powered locos using On board SLA batteries, Steam powered Dynamos, Steam turbines, Diesel hydraulic, Diesel AC Electric and Live Steam. And (hopefully) in about 3 years a direct drive Gas turbine loco -if I can get the exhaust temperature low enough... 

I live in a climate that is simply too wet for track based power and with a temperature even enough for me to not bother about track expansion -today the noonday temperature was 14C. To quote the rhyme 5, 10 and 21 Winter Spring and Summer Sun.... Most of my electric traction locos "pull" 10 to 30 amperes from their on board supplies (or alternator / dynamos) and I regularly take them to the local Model Engineering track and run them around that and the distance from me to the loco must be about 100m easily. I still have "full RX" and even if I don't the on board PIC and ESC will hold the settings for 10 seconds before a phased shutdown will be triggered. 

So Greg, if you would like to emulate my climactic conditions. Take an area of soil with a pH of 4 add limestone, lead, gypsum and peat. Then water it at a rate of 10mm every 3 days. You might find that you have severe electrophoretic attack, massive mineral deposits and a high likely hood of RCD events. What works in sunny California might not work when you live at a cold wet 54 Degrees North (you might have to use something else)... 

regards 

ralph


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, but............

What he said!!!


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