# Dec 7, 1941 - In their own words, OT



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

From those who lived to tell the tale-
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013612916_pearlharbor07m.html

http://www.pearlharbor.org/eyewitness-accounts.asp


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Yes this was one of the worst days in our countrys history.

This is one of those days i sit back and think about all those that were there.

Very sad day indeed.


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

*WE were there - at least close by.*

*My father was on board his ship, the USS Curtiss (a seaplane tender). The Curtiss survived the attack but had to spend time in drydock to repair the damages she received.*

*My mother was holding my brother while I held her hand as we watched from Pearl City naval housing.*

*We all survived that day and my father went on to spend 30 years in the Navy.*

*As long as I breath, I will never forget.*


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Even though I wasn't there, I won't forget. 
There are zero Japanese vehicles in my driveway, all US or Brit made (and yes, Flathead Fords ARE 100% US made, thankyouverymuch), and every time I see a Mitsubishi, I want to charge the .50cals. 

You know Mitsubishi....the people who brought you the Zero. 

Some things you're stuck with having The Rising Sun on them, but it's also one of the things I determined at an early age in Model Railroading.....I have no imported brass from the era when most was from there. 

And, they ain't going to Pry Us out of our money, neither.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Re-reading all those fellows memories got me to thinking along a common thread running through all of them. No seaplane patrols on the 6th.... The sea gate inexplicably left open that night.... All ammunition removed from it's accustomed storage lockers beside the guns and locked away with the keys missing..... The planes all lined up down the middle of the airfield..... The refusal to acknowledge the reports of Japanese subs.... A German couple in a house overlooking the harbor arrested the afternoon after the attack... Just a colossal series of unrelated blunders and missed opportunities? Or were those poor kids set up to be sitting ducks so that Roosevelt could overcome the isolationists in Congress? 

Maybe I'm a little paranoid or reading too much into it, but is it really possible for so many smart military men to all become stupid at the same time? 

Or maybe stupid is the wrong word? Is it treason if the commander in chief betrays his countrymen?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHAR...rl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Mik,

I visited the harbor last January and did the Arizona tour and Mighty Mo tour. From what I remember reading while there, the planes were lined up in the middle of the airfield to prevent someone on land from sabotaging them in the shadows. No one expected an air attack. Why else would they have lined up the battleships next to each other in lines? The military leaders didn't want to believe an attack could happen. 

Conspiracy theories are fun, but really I think the simple fact is that we were ill prepared to accept that a war was emminent.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

It's most likely that anyone that reads this site is pretty well off...compared to the rest of the world...like in the top 1% of all incomes in the whole world. I'm always amazed by statistics I read and how lucky I was to be born in the US. Like others, I have always "thanked" those that have gone on before me for their services to make my life what it is today...and today is one of those days.

Watch this...is a particularly good one...to remember and thank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_P6...ture=share


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## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR. 
THANKS FELLAS.....YOU ARE REMEMBERED - EVEN IN THE UK.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

We got together today for a steamup and an Aster bash.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 07 Dec 2010 01:52 PM 
It's most likely that anyone that reads this site is pretty well off...compared to the rest of the world...like in the top 1% of all incomes in the whole world. I'm always amazed by statistics I read and how lucky I was to be born in the US. Like others, I have always "thanked" those that have gone on before me for their services to make my life what it is today...and today is one of those days.

Watch this...is a particularly good one...to remember and thank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_P6...ture=share 


Thank you Mike, that was a really great one.
John


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 07 Dec 2010 12:25 PM 
Re-reading all those fellows memories got me to thinking along a common thread running through all of them. No seaplane patrols on the 6th.... The sea gate inexplicably left open that night.... All ammunition removed from it's accustomed storage lockers beside the guns and locked away with the keys missing..... The planes all lined up down the middle of the airfield..... The refusal to acknowledge the reports of Japanese subs.... A German couple in a house overlooking the harbor arrested the afternoon after the attack... Just a colossal series of unrelated blunders and missed opportunities? Or were those poor kids set up to be sitting ducks so that Roosevelt could overcome the isolationists in Congress? 

Maybe I'm a little paranoid or reading too much into it, but is it really possible for so many smart military men to all become stupid at the same time? 

Or maybe stupid is the wrong word? Is it treason if the commander in chief betrays his countrymen?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHAR...rl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html 



Mik,

If I may be permitted to extrapolate my experiences in the Armed Forces (1985-92), it was typical pre-war incompetence & assumptions....the important thing was the PROCESS: were all the "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed???? Results be damned, it was all about the PROCESS!!! Perception is reality!! Appearances are EVERYTHING!!!

Dave (Curmudgeon) described it perfectly in another thread, when he mentioned to NOT call him "sir" (since he is NOT a zero...Good on ya Dave!!! We work for a living!!).

And Colonel David Hackworth describes it to a "T" in his book "About Face," when he describes his second tour of combat duty in Korea in 1952: the war took a backseat to the ladder-climbers and bean-counters....unit commanders threatening to court-martial platoon members for "allowing" the enemy to destroy their precious instruments of war (tanks, halftracks, etc...), because now their T/O sheet is out of balance and they must generate even more paperwork to justify a replacement.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jim Francis on 07 Dec 2010 11:36 AM 
*WE were there - at least close by.*

*My father was on board his ship, the USS Curtiss (a seaplane tender). The Curtiss survived the attack but had to spend time in drydock to repair the damages she received.*

*My mother was holding my brother while I held her hand as we watched from Pearl City naval housing.*

*We all survived that day and my father went on to spend 30 years in the Navy.*

*As long as I breath, I will never forget.* 













WOW

Your experience has left me speechless. My family is eternally grateful for your father's faithful career service, and thankful he survived that day and every one after it. Needless to say I'm sure that experience shaped the rest of your life.


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ross on 07 Dec 2010 02:02 PM 
REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR. 
THANKS FELLAS.....YOU ARE REMEMBERED - EVEN IN THE UK. 


THANK YOU Ross!!


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Better late than never for me; it's been a VERY long day. 

Today I pay homage to my (indirect) namesake: Sergeant of Marines Charles Warren Cole, still entombed in the USS Arizona. He was my Grandfather's (my father's father) best friend when both were Marines before the war; my Grandfather was transferred Stateside shortly before the Japanese attack, and Sgt Cole was transferred to Sea Duty aboard the USS Arizona. The loss of Sgt Cole greatly affected my Grandfather, and he named my father after his best friend...since I'm a "Junior" AND spent 7 fine years as a US Marine, Sergeant Charles Warren Cole (USMC) is also my namesake. 

Semper Fi, Sgt Cole, Rest In Peace.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I mean no disrespect to the sailors who died there, or to those who survived. I read ALL the oral histories twice. 
Here is a list of names:
http://www.usswestvirginia.org/ph/phlist.php

I don't think it is muckraking to question if a dozen or so men in Washington DC might not have had the best interest of men almost 5000 miles away at heart. Nor does it 'sully their memory' to ask if the President and his immediate circle might have thought it the greater good to sacrifice a few ships to ultimately defeat Hitler. And needed to engineer an incident to get the American people to support them. FDR's reaction to the attack is sort of telling of his mindset. - "The blow was heavier than he had hoped it would necessarily be. ... But the risks paid off; even the loss was worth the price. ..." -Jonathan Daniels. FDR's administrative assistant.

Considering how many propagandists on both sides claim to be authorities and 'serious' historians, I think that the question of who knew what and when, and whether so many opportunities were simply missed, and mistakes made or events were guided IS important to discuss... Especially given the current attitude in Washington that they (on both sides of the aisle) know better what is good for us than we do. Rather than diminish the sacrifice of those 2,403 souls, not blindly accepting the official version may instead give their sacrifice even more meaning.

When asked, "Will historians know more later?", Admiral Kimmel replied, "' ... I'll tell you what I believe. I think that most of the incriminating records have been destroyed. ... I doubt if the truth will ever emerge.' ..." 
"I will go to my grave convinced that FDR ordered Pearl Harbor to let happen. He must have known." Vice Admiral Libby,



from both sides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_...dge_debate
http://web.archive.org/web/20040610...pearl.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20030406...pearl.html
http://home.flash.net/~manniac/pharbor.htm


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya know Allen...I think most politicians are crooks. They all seem to walk to a different maker than I walk for. I've learned that there are lots of good lessons to learn from history...and I wish that politicians would read more history. But...military folks are in the military because they want to be...cept for the draft years maybe...and all the military back in the 40s fit that bill. They were volunteers. They signed up for a higher calling...and I respect that. Our military today...all volunteers...signed up for that higher calling too. I appreciate that too.

I've had the honor of working for a Commander in Chief...a CINC...personally...on one's personal staff. Today, they're called Combatant Commanders to reflect that only the President is the CINC. But everyday I worked at PACOM, I walked past the photos on the wall of all the prior CINC Pacific Command. None-the-less, given that the military back then are the ones that "broke the codes"...there was no CIA in 1940...or OSS...zip...I find it VERY DIFFICULT to jump onto the cult that blames our elected officials cause they KNEW...NOR do I think that doing that is good for us. Back then...the military KNEW what the broken codes said...and passed that data to the politicians. I cannot believe the military would ignore attack warnings...even if the President said to do so.


Dec 7, 1941 - In their own words...started out good. I like honoring those that protected us. My father was one of them...and he was on the staff of Gen Dwight D. Eisenhower. I don't like the insinuation that there was a cover up...especially on a Day of Remembrance...of folks that gave their life for our freedom.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, I've lost jobs for daring to ask "Why?" when something made absolutely no sense, and not accepting a line of bullshit, or 'it's company policy' for an answer. Losing your respect over this will hurt, but not kill me, either. Read all those oral histories again. See what THEY said about things not being quite 'right' at the time. 20/20 hindsight? Selective memories? Maybe. 


I honor the fallen, I give thanks to those who served. I simply asked, like many others, whether so many, many cumulative errors in the months preceding were really all that probable. Even the official story says Admiral Kimmel and General Short weren't kept up to date by Washington, then kept what they did have from subordinates and each other. Marshall testified at the MacArthur hearings that he considered loyalty to his chief superior more important than loyalty to his country... The idea of the collusion of a dozen folks with a known agenda is statistically more likely than the general incompetence of at least ten times that number. 10 separate hearings on this over 50 years, and 69 year old secrets are still classified, then being redacted when grudgingly released says something about it, but what? Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And we did. Several times. And we continue to miss important clues, have folks conducting 'turf wars' at the expense of the country, and/or have government folks bend the truth to sway the public to fit their agenda......


IMO, Remembering these brave folks' sacrifices also involves remembering how and why it happened. Supporting the troops and honoring them doesn't also mean blindly accepting the official story of how they got there in the first place. Maybe it's just because I grew up during Vietnam and saw good, honorable men spit upon because folks didn't like the government's choice to send them there. That was just as wrong and dangerous to the republic as blind patriotism is. Like the gutters on the road, I try to avoid both extremes.


So, if not on this date above all others, I'll ask you, WHEN should we think about it? After the next one?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

On the way back from Marty's I picked up a audio book at a truck stop. 

It is called Fly Boys by James Bradly. He is the author of Flags of our Fathers.

The following is a synopsis of the book. It is a true story.

"In this WW II history, FLAGS OF OUR FATHERS author Bradley tells the story of nine Americans who were shot down and taken prisoner by the Japanese. He tells of their training and background, and deals with issues of war, racial attitudes, atrocities, and retribution." Even though this is not a book for someone with a weak stomach it should be required reading in schools today.

One of the nine survived to become president of the US. The first Bush.

The book is available in paper back.

It taks place during the battle of Inojima. and a unknown island of GiGijima.

If you want to never forget....This book will make sure you don't 

JJ


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

The aftermath from Pearl Harbor was one of the best examples of how this country can work.

As I recall all but two of the battleships were refloated and restored to service during WWII.

The Japnese plan failed to damage the US aircraft carriers in Pearl harbor, they were out to sea. As it became quite apparent during the war the aircraft carrier was the predominant ship for battle, the battleships role was les iportant than in previous wars.

Sit back and ponder what might have been if the US has lost the Battle of Midway, the troops were repulsed from hte beaches of Normandy or the Allies had lost the fight againt the German U-boats in the Atlantic. It is quite a chilling thought to think how the world might have turned out if these events had gone the other way. 

From a historical perspective the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a tactical vistory but a strategic blunder. After the attack when it became apparent the ultimatum from the Japanese government was deliver long after the attack had begun, Admiral Yamamoto has been cited as saying" I am afraid all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible anger". How true those words were to become. Admiral Yamamoto is also credited with the observation that if war came with the US, that he would have 6 months to run wld in the Pacific, if the war lasted longer than that, then he could not assure final vctory. The Battle of Midway was fought almost 6 months to the day AFTER the attack on Pearl Harbor and is now seen when the tide of war started to turn in the favor of the US.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I visited the USS Arizona 3 times while stationed in Hawaii. The program they showed in the theater was different each time. I have a very deep respect for the combat sailors, Marines and aviators who "pulled it together" and fought back. I was involved with the 50th anniversies of both the Pearl Harbor attack and the activation of the 25th Infantry Division. I met a lot of the old timers. The stories they told either brought tears or laughter that would not quit. Those guys are really something, real heroes. They knew honor, courage, discipline, selflessness. They knew what it meant to accept a mission and accomplish it. Those values are important.

Fortunatley we have another generation of heroes coming along. These troops coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan are great Americans. They are strong, smart, quick, driven and have the same rock solid values of the old timers.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By xo18thfa on 08 Dec 2010 11:27 AM 
I visited the USS Arizona 3 times while stationed in Hawaii. The program they showed in the theater was different each time. I have a very deep respect for the combat sailors, Marines and aviators who "pulled it together" and fought back. I was involved with the 50th anniversies of both the Pearl Harbor attack and the activation of the 25th Infantry Division. I met a lot of the old timers. The stories they told either brought tears or laughter that would not quit. Those guys are really something, real heroes. They knew honor, courage, discipline, selflessness. They knew what it meant to accept a mission and accomplish it. Those values are important.

Fortunatley we have another generation of heroes coming along. These troops coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan are great Americans. They are strong, smart, quick, driven and have the same rock solid values of the old timers. 


Wha you point out in your last paragraph is absolutly turen. And we sure need a lot of guys with those values. Badly.

I know this is a un popular thought but I think there should be madatory 2 year hitch in the military.
If going to collage then do it through the ROTC program. 

What my 4 years in the Air Force did for me was a turning point in my life


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Patrolling the Iron Curtain in Germany did it for me.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By John J on 08 Dec 2010 04:25 AM 
On the way back from Marty's I picked up a audio book at a truck stop. 

It is called Fly Boys by James Bradly. He is the author of Flags of our Fathers.

The following is a synopsis of the book. It is a true story.

"In this WW II history, FLAGS OF OUR FATHERS author Bradley tells the story of nine Americans who were shot down and taken prisoner by the Japanese. He tells of their training and background, and deals with issues of war, racial attitudes, atrocities, and retribution." Even though this is not a book for someone with a weak stomach it should be required reading in schools today.

One of the nine survived to become president of the US. The first Bush.

The book is available in paper back.

It taks place during the battle of Inojima. and a unknown island of GiGijima.

If you want to never forget....This book will make sure you don't 

JJ 



I can second the recommendation for this book, and concur that it is not for the weak at heart - I cried while reading parts of it. Reviews on Amazon are, as usual, mixed, with some valid criticisms.


A few corrections: the island is Chichi Jima (just north of Iwo Jima), and the assault was 8 months before the battle on Iwo Jima.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Jim 
Thanks for the spelling correctin. I was doing it from Memory. 
I too was deeply moved by this book to the point of having to pull of the road and stop.


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