# IS ANY ONE USING A PUSHER?



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Has anyone tried MUing a pusher? ( That may not be the right term) 

Has anyone created a long long train and tried using a pusher using the same Remote system/reliever?

That is putting two or three engines each with their own Decoder tuned to the same X mitter?

What Combination?

Who's engines?

Did you Mix Manufactures? 


Where you successful?

Who's system were you using? 

The reason for the question is At Marty's my 25 car train had trouble climbing the grade(1.5% I think) while the last 5 cars or so were still in a curve. It stalled the engine till the wheels slipped. I know Why...because of the drag the curve created. 

I was thinking of using a pusher.

Any INput what so ever is welcome.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Has anyone tried MUing a pusher? ( That may not be the right term) 
>>> Yes diesel and steam

Has anyone created a long long train and tried using a pusher using the same Remote system/reliever?
>> Yes, I only use DCC 


That is putting two or three engines each with their own Decoder tuned to the same X mitter?
>> Now your question eliminates many systems I think, the way I read your question is setting all the decoders in the locos to the same "identity". Modern systems do not do this, but they do "consisting", where the system understands which locos are in the consist, and commands all of them at the same time. People have done what you are asking, but then you have speed matching problems, unless all locos are very close in speed AND pulling power, i.e. speed under load. 


What Combination?
>> F3, GP7, PA, E8, you name it, in steam, my Mallet, Mikado, I can do any combination I want, even steam pusher on diesel. It's the system that is important, not the locos. 


Who's engines?
>> USAT, Aristo, Accucraft/AML, Bachmann 


Did you Mix Manufactures? 
>> Yes 



Where you successful?
>> Of course, advanced and powerful consisting functions is a fundamental advantage of DCC.


Who's system were you using?
>> In DCC it does not matter, all modern systems and decoders do this. I use NCE controls, NCE, QSI, Zimo, MRC decoders. You being battery could use the Aristo TE system, or AirWire. (AirWire is basically wireless DCC, the Aristo system is less capable and proprietary).


The reason for the question is At Marty's my 25 car train had trouble climbing the grade(1.5% I think) while the last 5 cars or so were still in a curve. It stalled the engine till the wheels slipped. I know Why...because of the drag the curve created. 
>> I'm really curious JJ, with the broad curves at Marty's, I think you should not require a pusher. You will definitely need a more sophisticated control system, and this will add complexity. I run 45 car freight trains on 3.4% grades where the whole train is on the grade, and I do it fine with 3 E8 and 5 or 6 F3's or 4 PA's.... 


>>>Are you sure your journals are lubed? Was the curve smaller than 10'? Maybe the grade is a lot more than you think.



I was thinking of using a pusher.
>>> after all that, running a pusher or locos mid train is very cool, but you need something "smarter" to make it work easily. From the limited speed matching of the Aristo TE system, and the propensity it has to unlink, I would not recommend that system in this application, especially since you are already having problems with the train. 

>>> If you were running track power, the best system is actually the MTH DCS system, because each locomotive knows exactly it's TRUE track speed, not the DESIRED track speed. Next step down in this specific application would be DCC. 

>>> I probably have not helped you much, but I will wager I'm one of the few here that has done what you ask, not just wire a bunch of locos together and hope for the best. 



Any INput what so ever is welcome. 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I considered trying "Pusher Service", but I tried double-heading first and had enough trouble that I decided against trying an engine on each end.

I run Live Steam... Two Aster Mikados, both with R/C installed, so this is slightly outside of the characteristics you are probably considering, but maybe some of the problems I had are worth considering in the sparky world.


I have 27 cars in the train with two locomotives/tenders. My layout could handle maybe 20 more cars before the front would hit the rear on a loop-back, but I just don't have any more cars.

I tried two ways... independent transmitters (one in each hand) controlling the individual receivers, and one transmitter with the two receivers set to the same frequency (one transmitter sending the same proportional signal to the two receivers).

My R/C is a M-5 R/C system designed to run R/C cars. The "Steering wheel" controls the Forward/Reverse and "cut-off" of the cylinders (a term an electric motor system has no relationship to), and the "trigger" controls the Throttle (akin to the ESP in a sparky). The transmitter can be handled easily with just one hand; the index finger on the Trigger for speed control and the thumb on the rim of the Steering Wheel for Fwd/Rev/Cut-off control. Also, mechanically the transmitter can be assembled to be held in either the right or left hand.

My track is all elevated about 3-ft above the ground. Considering 27 cars at $40.00 to $70.00 each plus two $4000.00 engines I was nervous about nearly $10,000 worth of "toys" falling off the track if something went awry. (Oh dear, did I really spend THAT much money!!!! OUCH!







At least is was spread over 5 years or so. )

Using one transmitter/controller per locomotive would be ideal, but as Greg said, this requires some smarts and I didn't have quite enough! I can "multitask" some things (surfing the TV and surfing the web at the same time) but I have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time and apparently controlling two independent engines simultaneously fall in the latter category.

When I got both engines steamed up and put the consist together the locomotive on the right was controlled by the transmitter in my right hand and the locomotive on the left was controlled by the transmitter in my left hand. 

I ran the train forward and back a few feet and it seemed to work fairly well, so I charged off down the line and around the loop-back. After rounding the curve to the opposite side I noted that it seemed to be going a bit too fast so I released the trigger on both transmitters and could see that the drive wheels of the locomotive on the right had come to a complete stop and was being drug by the other one. So I clamped down on the trigger in my right hand. The wheels did not start turning but the whole train sped up!

Now I am approaching the loop-back slip switch that I didn't want to "high-ball" through... especially with one engine skidding on stopped drivers! So PANIC set in and I threw both engines into reverse and went to full throttle. Normally this is a "FUN" thing to do, to see the locomotive wheels spin wildly in reverse while the locomotive is still going forward... but, the sudden reversal of the whole 27 car consist on the curve put a short portion of the train into accordion pleat mode. It happened to be a nice symmetrical accordion pleating over the track so the train remained on the elevated surface and nothing dropped to the Eyeshudmowsoon Jungle below.

The problem was that when the train went around the curve it was now going the other way and the engine "on the right" was now controlled by the transmitter in my left hand (and vice versa). I was thinking of the relationship as "Left to left and Right to right", but it should have been "Right to leading and Left to trailing". I could not convince my brain of that relationship, so that was pretty much the end of my attempts to double-head with "Independent control".

Next I changed the frequency crystal in one receiver so that both receivers got the same signal from one transmitter.

This worked better as my left hand didn't need to know what my right hand was doing (and vise versa), but, given the vagarities of the valve gear adjustments and the vagarities of the adjustment of the servo linkages to the valve gears and the throttles, added to the variations in boiler pressure and the differences in weight of the locomotives (based on water level in the boiler at any one moment, translated to tractive effort before wheel slip), I noted that at any one time, one engine was either pushing or dragging the other one; i.e.: the drive wheels were not necessarily operating at the same rotational speed all the time.

Not having a way to actually measure the pull of each engine at the draw-bar I can't say if they were ever actually working in tandem. I can say that it required both engines to start the 27 car consist in the curve; either locomotive by itself was unable to move the other one (if the 27 other cars were also attached, but either one without the rest of the consist could drag or shove the other dead).

But with both in forward at the same time, with the throttle just barely open on one, the other could drag the consist away. Once moving, the "dead" engine could be reversed at full throttle and the momentum of the consist would just drag it along with the wheels spinning wildly the wrong way.

I have been afraid to connect the two locomotives back to back in a tug-o-war... I fear a coupler failure and both locos flying off opposite ends of the layout before I could react!


To translate my experience to "Pusher Service"... I would be concerned with the amount of simultaneous effort the two engines are applying to the train.

If the lead engine is pulling a lot more than the rear engine then the train could be "string-lined" (aka "Clothes-lined") in a curve; i.e.: like pulling on the end of a string/rope, it tends to straighten out instead of the trailing end following after the path in which the parts between the ends is laying, thus the middle of the train is pulled off to the inside of a curve.

If the rear engine is shoving a lot more than the lead engine then you risk compressing the train and shoving the middle of the train off the outside of a curve.

Balancing the push and pull is what is needed. If the engines are well matched, then starting slow and increasing power to increase speed should not be too difficult.

But, doing so by manual control of each engine I think would be difficult because you, the engineer, are not "ON" the engine, "feeling by the seat of your pants" the amount of effort the engine is applying. You have to watch the couplers ahead of the pusher to watch for closing the gap and being mindful of the joint starting to bend to one side.

There is probably a limit to how many cars you can push on your layout... Dependant on the weight and rolling resistance of your cars on your track (condition, curves, gauge, etc.)

There has got to be some rule of thumb for where in the train you want the stretch of the coupler slack at the head of the train to be taken up by the compression of the slack caused by the pusher. And this has to take into account how long of a train you can push without problems.

If your train is short/light enough that it could be pushed or pulled by just one locomotive, i.e.: you are just doing pusher service for fun (pretending it is necessary), then the rear engine should just be moving itself so watch the coupler on each end of the last couple of cars before it. They should be just floating between stretched and compressed.

If you train is long/heavy enough that the lead engine cannot move it, i.e.: you either need to double-head or to have a pusher in operation, then it gets a bit more complicated.

In reality, the power used to move the first car is not supplied by just the lead engine and likewise the power required to move the last car is not supplied solely by the pusher engine,. The amount of power to move each car is some percentage supplied by both engines. But for simplicities sake I think we can assume it is really two trains with a dividing point where the cars are being moved by just one or the other engine.

I am not sure of the length of train that two engines can move together, but I am certain it is not the simple sum of what each engine can do individually. I think that if you start with a train long/heavy enough that one engine could just barely pull it and add to it a train that one engine could just barely push it without mishap that you would still have a train that is too long/heavy for the two engines combined. This is because there would be moments where a part of one train would be added to the other part and exceed the capabilities of the engine supplying the majority of the tractive effort for that part. The dividing point between which engine is applying the majority of its tractive effort to move the cars would move within the train depending on track condition, varying rolling resistance, wind resistance, and the whim of nature.


My guess is that you could run a train that is 3/4 of the length you can pull, plus 3/4 of the length you can safely push and that if you are manually controlling each engine, the engineer of the trailing engine should be watching the couplers about 1/3rd of the train ahead of his engine.

Mid train helper service would be even more difficult.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I actually experimented with it one time! I had my Connie in front pulling and I had a Shay in the middle of the train. What had happened was that I had two trains running for a cub scout pack open house on my layout and I decided to try it at the very end of the meeting. I used the Shay as the "pusher" because it was the slower of the two. Both engines have RCS Elite 3 RX receivers but on completely different frequencies so I used two TX-24's, one in each hand.Each engine had a six car train so when I ran them together I had two engines and twelve cars which made for a _long_ train on my layout! I was surprised that it worked! The thing I had to watch for was surging on the downhill. Fortunately, the Shay had such even gearing that it worked.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

We were doing the Sweeper clean up after an operations session at Gary Lee's Baker and Grande Ronde RR and decided to see if we could pick up everything in one train....27 cars plus three cabeese, two Annies MU'd using AC Revolution, two AC C-16's one loco link, one Airwire not MU'd, and a three truck Shay on Airwire, going up a 5% curved grade! Five locos, four engineers and a lot of yelling! Not MU'd but a very interesting experiment, one we will not try again.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow thats just fantastic Nick.... Great layout....


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ, 

With a point to point shortline operation I don't run long trains very often but I have run a 21 car train with 3 engines. The engines used were all Delton C-16's. One engine on the point, one in the middle and one at the rear just ahead of the caboose. 

The engines were all battery powered which eliminates jerkiness sometimes caused by loss of power due to dirty track. Smooth running is very important to avoid derailing cars or yanking couplers out with midtrain and rear helpers. You also need free rolling wheels, cars of similar weight and low center of gravity and couplers that not only stay coupled but have some slack and good lateral motion. 

Control was by Loco-Linc which allows for up to 4 locos to be controlled from one controller. I understand RCS can also control up to 4 at one time. Additionally Loco-Linc allows for minor speed adjustments for each engine to bring them into sync speed wise. 

It's neat to watch the engines work and see coupler slack taken up back and forth as the train progresses. Too, when watching at trackside the Phoenix sound would build up to maximum as each engine passed and fade away as it moved on only to pick up again as the next engine approached. Really a neat experience in itself. If I was ever to build a really long RR I would definitely have a helper district where trains would stop, add helpers, proceed uphill to summit and have helpers cut off which would then drift light back downgrade coupled together. Helpers are just as interesting with diesels. I do intend to run an occasional train such as this once the POC's mainline is completed just for fun. 

I've also run helpers where the road engine and helper were each controlled by a different person, in this case a single pusher. This is fun too as it requires some coordination and attention to what you're doing. Whistle signals take on real importance too. Unfortunately I've never used helpers this way except on someone else's RR as I almost always have to operate alone. 

I'd love to try helpers on a train of 50 cars or more but such a length on my RR either now or when completed is out of the question. 

Give it a try JJ. It's a challenge sometimes but great fun.


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## Tim Hytrek (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttaXLGIjms

I dont know about decoders, and this is all manually controled live steam, but I think the C-21 at the back qualifies as a pusher.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

... a very interesting experiment, one we will not try again. 

Hmm, are we led to believe there's a second photo showing the train at the bottom of the trestle in the creek, after the pushers got a bit pushy?  

Seriously, that's a great looking line. Got any other photos? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Before we get really off track... back to JJ's question, I would put more locos on the front before you try a pusher JJ, when you get your train running reliably that way, then you can try your hand at it. As you can see from the responses, except for DCC, and I will tell you MTH, it's not easy or simple. 

The people above have not run really long trains like you are asking about, long trains for their layout, but not the long train of long cars you were trying to run at Marty's. With the broad curves he has, you should be able to just add more locos at the front. 

Maybe you can tell us more about the derailments you had at Marty's and we will have more to work with. 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Ric wanted to try it once when I brought some cars into "Southern Division" with my Mallet. He carefully backed up his UINTAH mallet and coupled. Then, on the count of 3, I went forward and he went backward. Oops.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ,
I run multiple units and sometimes use a pusher or helper on my long 2% grade up to my indoor storage yard. I use Airwire and all locos have a their own receiver and onborad batteries. I just put all the locos into a consist. If the helpers or "pushers" are fairly well matched to the lead locos it works fine. I have also run them midtrain. If you are coming to the national covention next year in Tacoma let me know and we can run some trains. I'm only about 25 minutes from where the convention will be held. I will not be on the bus tour but seriously thinking about having an open house day for MLS people.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul,

Can I come? My wife and I might be visiting her sister in Eugene about that time. How many hours drive from there to your place?


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## neals645 (Apr 7, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 05 Oct 2009 09:12 AM 
Paul,

Can I come? My wife and I might be visiting her sister in Eugene about that time. How many hours drive from there to your place?
260 miles, 4 hours 16 minutes from Eugene, OR to Gig Harbor, WA. According to yahoo maps.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary,
About 5 hours up I-5. We just drove it a couple weeks ago on our return from Colorado. Just let us know when you want to visit. Guest room is open for you,it even adjoins the trainroom.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the invite Paul, but we will probably get a hotel in the area. Is there a Marriott near you? My son's gir;lfriend can get us "friends and family". My sister-in-law and her husband will be with us and they want to see Train Mountain at the same time. Thx again for your offer.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i have followed many of the points above 

i run analog and some very long and heavy trains 

i use identical engines-or-only if the engine allows slippage -the faster engine at the front, or if identical drive ratios-the bigger at the front to drag the rear engine-the best is identical speed of front and rear engines 

theres a practical and deilcate balance between drag and buff-curves can be tricky as can grades- 



i run slowly and just try to keep the front and back workers very even -and shifts of the train load gradual




obviously as one enters a grade-the rear engine gets a greater load-over the crest of a grade the opposite occurs- 

pushers can even out buff and drag 

its **** however should one engine stall (typically the worst with the front engine) and the cars are light, on a curve, or simply going too fast


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary,
There is a Marriott directly across the street from the convention center. Acutally closer than the convention hotel. Get a room on the east side and it directly overlooks the BNSF yards.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When is the convention this year?


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

First of all, not my layout, Gary Lee's and he has put a LOT of time and effort into it. Yes, that is all hand laid code 250 track with handbuilt stub switches. 

There is an Incident Report  created about the "accident" 
Caboose in the creek, I know nothing....wadda ya mean there's photos, dang it...yep, the Shay was on the backend and pushed a little too hard. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/nk...0bgrrr.pdf 


Some more photos of Gary's 









http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/nkelsey/incident report bgrrr.pdf


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Derailment Details

The Problems I had with derailments had to do with a set of USA 5 car articulated container cars. I bought them used from Stan C. The problem had to do with the trucks. Once I converted them to Aristo trucks most my derailment problems went away. I derailed exactly in the same place every time. So I think It was a track problem. 

Now Back to the Pusher. I really only doing it for looks. It may end up just being a dummy. I will try and make it a working engine but it may not be feasible.

I will look around for a used engine to do it with. I am always looking for used rolling stock. 95% of my roster is used. 97% of my track is used. 

My Purchasing agent is a miser.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Using a Pusher? Like whoa dude! I don't even associate with Dealers! (okay, so I have a weird sense of humor)... 

Someplace I saw a pic of a guy who was using a mid train helper ala Rio Grande, but I don't remember where or what scale


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## Tehachapi Dave (Nov 10, 2008)

I run pushers all the time on my indoor Techachapi loop RR. The loop is under construction outside. I use TE with track power and aristocraft diesels. My biggest train was around 70 cars with two -9's on the front, two sd-45's mid train and an sd-45 and gp-40 on the back. Engines were just about toughing. The key to running long trains with pushers is body mounted couplers. All cars have Kadee body mounted couplers. The other intersting problem is when pushing, when a derailment occurs, the cars go everwhere making for some intersting pictures.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tehachapi Dave on 27 Oct 2009 09:08 PM 
I run pushers all the time on my indoor Techachapi loop RR.  The loop is under construction outside.  I use TE with track power and Aristocraft diesels.  My biggest train was around 70 cars with two -9's on the front, two sd-45's mid train and an sd-45 and gp-40 on the back. Engines were just about toughing.  The key to running long trains with pushers is body mounted couplers.  All cars have Kadee body mounted couplers.  The other interesting problem is when pushing, when a derailment occurs, the cars go everywhere making for some interesting pictures. 


Sounds great. Where are the pictures ?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Has anyone tried MUing a pusher? ( That may not be the right term) 

Has anyone created a long long train and tried using a pusher using the same Remote system/reliever? 

That is putting two or three engines each with their own Decoder tuned to the same X mitter? 

What Combination? 

Who's engines? 

Did you Mix Manufactures? 


Where you successful? 

Who's system were you using? 

Hi John, 

I have done this successfully in both live steam and electric using DCC, and in both cases it was during snowplowing where I needed extra weight and pushing power to clear heavy/wet snow. 
For the live steamers, since mine are manual control, it's a little tricky but they just get to the point where they spin out if the snow is too deep and if one works a little harder than the other it's no big deal at all. 
On the DCC side, I am using the LGB MTSIII central station with Massoth Navigator wireless handhelds and Massoth decoders. It's easy with them too because you can either run them as a consist or control them individually from the Navigator since you can operate two locos simultaneously. Sometimes that's handy when one of the locos is lighter and spins out earlier so you can back it off a bit and put more pushing power on the heavy loco. I have done the snowplow pushing using two and also three locos. I find if you use more than that there is so much horsepower the front engine can just get pushed off the rails in corners if the snow is deep. 
In non-winter conditions I also run a consist where the powered loco is at the back of the train and a control car is at the lead. This is something the RhB does regularly where the control car has a duplicate set of controls but the actual loco is at the rear. 

Keith


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I haven't tried a pusher yet, but I have double-headed my Bachmann Annie with a Climax using the speed matching features of my 2.4GHZ RailBoss R/C. It worked great.


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## Tim Hytrek (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a video using a K-28, C-19, and a C-21. The C-21 is at the back as a pusher.
http://www.youtube.com/v/wttaXLGIjm...3E%3Cparam name="allowFullScreen" value="true">


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

We use both mid train and end of train pushers on our railtoad. This type of operation was common on the railroads to limit loadings on the bridges and also stress on the drawbars. Unlike Greg we tend not to multi unit the locomotives and prefer instead to operate each individually. The cars we have with Kadee 830s help this a lot as you can play with the slack between the cars. Graqdually we are adding this coupler to all of our cars for this reason. We also like to use whistle signals. Very prototypical operations.


In the video below we have 3 k27s starting a long train on a grade. The whistle signals are used to both send the information to the locomotives and confirm the information was received. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-0iUbSXl2s

Stan Ames


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