# Live Steam Track Design



## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope the moderator won't remove this post to the Track forum. I read through there and live steam track design I think is more specific to this forum.

I am working on a track design for a live steam club and am hoping to draw on others' experience. In particular I need information on loading gauge dimensions to allow narrow gauge and 7/8" equipment to pass on parallel mainlines. 


Also, one loop will have an area about 20' in diameter in the interior. I'd like to design a steaming bay centered around a turntable within that area. Has anyone designed and built one like this? I am wondering if that is enough room, and how the dimensions work out to allow many steamers to access the various stub tracks around the turntable. How many stub or steaming tracks could be designed in presume 180 degrees of sweep? How long would the turntable deck need to be to accommodate the biggest engines (would that be an Aster Big Boy still?)


I have built a few backyard railroads over the years and always tried to design the steaming bay tracks at kitchen counter height at about 36". Any opinions on that?


My proposed track will be a dogbone, minimum radius 22' or so, about 140' across the length. My plan is to take a portion of the middle of the dog bone and build the deck with posts anchored in concrete. Imagine a 24' table, three sections of 8'. Each 8' secion has 4x4 posts anchored in concrete... four sets of posts with three spans. The rest of the railroad deck would then tie to that in construction, but the posts would all sit in cinder block post bases and float, not embedded in concrete. Any experience or advice with this? I think those bases aren't very attractive, but I think we could stucco them and paint to match the posts.


I will propose pressure treated 4x4 posts, deck stringers. I will propose Trex 1" material for the actual deck. Any thoughts on that? Looking for minimum maintenance and minimum movement.

I appreciate any advice or comments, particularly from anyone who has actually built a dedicated live steam track.


Regards!

-Richard Finlayson


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Use 4" ABS pipe for the posts, 20 gauge steel stud channels for the stringers & cross members then Dibond for the deck. Sink the top of the cinder block post bases to ground level and let them float, that way they will be hidden. Use toilet flanges on the top of the ABS pipe to fasten the steel channel to.


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan, I presume the stud channels can be bent to form an arc for the stringers? Can this be done during construction, or do they need to be pre-bent, or are bending tools required? 

Just looked up dibond. How much is that stuff? Looks awesome, looks expensive.


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

And... do you have any photos?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Try this Richard 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/111930/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Dibond cost, I paid $85 a 4x8 sheet and used 12 sheets. I needed one more sheet and this time I went to buy it, I was asked if it needed to be painted both sides, I said no and was charged $58 for that sheet. If I had known this at the beginning I would have saved about $360 with tax.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is mine with the deck material used. Track is 6 years old. 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jeffrunge/track-7-07-b.jpg


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard
I agree with Dan, dibond is the way to go. We use it in the construction of our portable layout along with the Aikenback live steamers (Mr. Moore) track. Advantages: light, strong, durable, weatherproof, easy to work with, flat surface (trek will give you small hump unless planed), can be glued to surface (3 years of heat, cold, snow, humidity- no problems)....


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

This is the railroad my dad and I designed and built with advice from members here:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/119791/afv/topic/Default.aspx

and here it is finished:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...f/11/aft/121032/afv/topic/Default.aspx#232845 



And we designed our railroad with the idea that a K-36 would be the largest locomotive running on it. The Accucraft K-36 is 44 inches long I believe, which is a little shorter than a big boy at 48? inches. The K-36 is 6.25" wide from cylinder to cylinder, so we decided to use a uniform 9.5" from center to center to allow for plenty of room. There should be 3.25" between passing K-36's if we ever had them.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Richard, 
To me, the choice of material is a very personal one. 
I like wood and using screws, so that is my choice. 
Dan likes the 'industrial' look with plastic and metal and 'pop' rivets. 
Since this, I assume, is a club effort, better make sure that those who are going to build it are happy with the materials that they are going to be working with. 
Now obviously the use on non organic material should mean that the track will last forever, whereas my track started to fall apart after 15 years as the top surface of plywood rotted. 
Incidentally, where I had actually glued down the roofing felt on the plywood, the plywood is still good, so a lesson learned. 
So, I am going to be rebuilding my track again, and since I have to do this, it gives me the opportunity to make some changes and improvements. 
It is hard to decide on track spacing if you want to please everyone. 
My track is going to be a 1/32 scale track, so WHEN friends come with wider locomotives and stock, they will have to run alone to prevent any contact. 
Turntables are great, but they do seem to have problems with alignment after some use! 
Enjoy the design and build. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 11 Sep 2011 06:30 AM
Here is mine with the deck material used. Track is 6 years old. 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jeffrunge/track-7-07-b.jpg 



Jeff:
Why two different piers per pair of legs? One a 4x4 post pier block the other appears to be a retaining wall block on its side. Does the post happen to fit into the retaining wall block?
Chris


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, 

Regarding the track centers remember the large loco (such as K-27) overhangs on the curves. I am sure that others can advise you on exact recommended track spacing on curves. 

In my opinion a 20 ft. diameter area for the turntable seems a bit tight. If a 48" turntable is needed then the storage tracks would need to be at least as long if not a bit longer. If the storage tracks are laid out in a 180 degree arc then a lot of the 20 ft diameter area is going to get eaten up leaving not much room to maneuver around the ends of the storage tracks. There's also the problem of getting large, heavy locos into the central turntable area and onto a storage track easily in what could be a congested area. I know that turntables are cool, and if it's really a priority than figure out how to set it up on the outside the track loop. From observations at many steamups one of the main constraints is yard storage for long rakes of cars, and that's where I'd focus first before considering a loco turntable. 

Loco servicing seems to be quite adequately handled by having several long sidings that will each take several locos. The long sidings would be adjacent to equally-long passing sidings to facilitate loco maneuvering without blocking the main line. Loco storage could be no more than long sidings adjacent to the passing sidings or the tail ends of the service sidings. 

Good to hear that you're still busy with trains. What's the club and is it in Austin? 

Steve


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, The retaining wall blocks were free, they came with the house so I used them to save some money. They are very heavy, the hole is tapered and after tapping the post in with a taper cut in it, it is like being set in a block of concrete. All blocks are set on a shallow bed of crushed stone.


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 11 Sep 2011 05:07 AM 
Try this Richard 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/111930/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Dibond cost, I paid $85 a 4x8 sheet and used 12 sheets. I needed one more sheet and this time I went to buy it, I was asked if it needed to be painted both sides, I said no and was charged $58 for that sheet. If I had known this at the beginning I would have saved about $360 with tax. 
Dan, I'm leary of painting anything. My grandfather was a rancher... he said to avoid painting things, once you start it never stops. Is the paint that the manufacturer applies bullet proof? How did it handle while doing edge cuts, etc?


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 11 Sep 2011 06:30 AM 
Here is mine with the deck material used. Track is 6 years old. 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jeffrunge/track-7-07-b.jpg 

Jeff, I like the spacing on the deck planks. Seems like it would help debris fall through, keep the deck cleaner. Is that true, or did you space it for the aesthetics? It looks great.

Regards,

-Richard


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 11 Sep 2011 08:34 AM 
Richard, 
To me, the choice of material is a very personal one. 
I like wood and using screws, so that is my choice. 
Dan likes the 'industrial' look with plastic and metal and 'pop' rivets. 
Since this, I assume, is a club effort, better make sure that those who are going to build it are happy with the materials that they are going to be working with. 
Now obviously the use on non organic material should mean that the track will last forever, whereas my track started to fall apart after 15 years as the top surface of plywood rotted. 
Incidentally, where I had actually glued down the roofing felt on the plywood, the plywood is still good, so a lesson learned. 
So, I am going to be rebuilding my track again, and since I have to do this, it gives me the opportunity to make some changes and improvements. 
It is hard to decide on track spacing if you want to please everyone. 
My track is going to be a 1/32 scale track, so WHEN friends come with wider locomotives and stock, they will have to run alone to prevent any contact. 
Turntables are great, but they do seem to have problems with alignment after some use! 
Enjoy the design and build. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
David, I agree. I like the aesthetic of wood, but it is good advice to give everyone a look at the options. 

I built at least three plywood decked railroads. On all of them I used a big brush like roofers use (Home Depot standard issue), then smeared roofing tar (HD standard issue), painted the edtes of the plywood with that tar, and then stapled the paper down in a few places in the deck and then wrapped underneath and stapled. I finished the edge off with a cosmetic trim piece to hide that paper/plywood edge. Like yours, my decking remained in great shape for years, and when I inevitably moved and took the sawzall to the whole thing the plywood was in perfect shape. I liked the paper for that, but also because I would spread out gravel/dirt and then spray it all down with waterproof glue with a garden sprayer. The dirt/gravel stuck like crazy. I liked it because it was like ballasting and HO layout. Probably not everybody's cup of tea but I liked it. 

This track won't be that way of course...

And yes, I have never seen a handmade turntable in ANY scale that lined up correctly! 


Thanks David!

-Richard


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve Shyvers on 11 Sep 2011 12:51 PM 
Richard, 

Regarding the track centers remember the large loco (such as K-27) overhangs on the curves. I am sure that others can advise you on exact recommended track spacing on curves. 

In my opinion a 20 ft. diameter area for the turntable seems a bit tight. If a 48" turntable is needed then the storage tracks would need to be at least as long if not a bit longer. If the storage tracks are laid out in a 180 degree arc then a lot of the 20 ft diameter area is going to get eaten up leaving not much room to maneuver around the ends of the storage tracks. There's also the problem of getting large, heavy locos into the central turntable area and onto a storage track easily in what could be a congested area. I know that turntables are cool, and if it's really a priority than figure out how to set it up on the outside the track loop. From observations at many steamups one of the main constraints is yard storage for long rakes of cars, and that's where I'd focus first before considering a loco turntable. 

Loco servicing seems to be quite adequately handled by having several long sidings that will each take several locos. The long sidings would be adjacent to equally-long passing sidings to facilitate loco maneuvering without blocking the main line. Loco storage could be no more than long sidings adjacent to the passing sidings or the tail ends of the service sidings. 

Good to hear that you're still busy with trains. What's the club and is it in Austin? 

Steve 

Steve, I think you are right. The tracks don't diverge fast enough in a short distance to allow a track+standing room next to it. We will have a stair/bridge to get to the inside loop so that will help with access. I will post a plan a little later (after a few more club folks have reviewed). I have a very large (35') area for a yard ladder for rolling stock on the outside. Maybe I should just put a longish 16' or so yard ladder on the inside loop instead of the turntable. 

One thing we are going to try to design in, and enforce, is a break-down or service siding in the middle of the dog bone. Not a steaming bay or steamup siding. With 100' feet in length, guys that know and trust each other can run trains on the same track together but still get out of the way when the inevitable breakdown occurs. 


Thanks for the ideas! I'm now living in Los Angeles... just down the road from Sonny, and somewhere in the same neighborhood with John Coughran. I don't know the areas all that well yet so I'm sure I'm near a lot of live steamers now...


Later!


-Richard


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, you had asked about Steve's layout. He used the artificial decking material such as Trex. We put in three loops so the boards were cut to 24". We have found that 8" centers on the tracks is all you need to clear anything. Stringers were 2x6's screwed to 16" cross pieces attached to the 4x4 posts. Steve used the concrete blocks designed for the 4x4 posts rather than sink them in the ground. Steve did put in two 'fourth tracks' across the front for steaming tracks. There the boards were cut to 32". We put all the crossovers between the three tracks right in front where the steaming tracks were so everyone could keep an eye on them to minimize the possibility of a switch thrown wrong. That has worked out very well. Steve used #6 custom built code 332 switches. We have since found that #6's are too sharp for the really large Aster locomotives. But since there are only a couple of those around it hasn't been a problem.

On the track out at Zube which we just finished reworking we used the same idea as far as cross pieces and stringers, but the posts are landscape timbers set in concrete. For decking out there we used cedar fence boards cut to two foot lengths(it has three loops also) then covered it all with rolled roofing material. We used black. For the extra wide areas by the steaming bay and along the front where all the crossovers are we used marine plywood which costs about $90 a sheet. It is also covered with rolled roofing. We used the black plastic landscape edging material around the edges to finish it off. Out previous experience with just the treated out door plywood was totally negative. It just delaminates and deteriorates. Not worth the trouble. We also have a four track yard that goes diagnolly across the interior for storing long strings of cars. When we rebuilt we expanded the aproach tracks to the turntable to five with only one going to the table. That gives us some more storage tracks for people using short trains and or additional steaming areas. You have been out there so you know we have seven steaming tracks around the turntable in addition to the five approach tracks. As money comes available we are replacing the Aristo switches with Switchcrafters #8's. 
jf


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

John, thanks for the details. I had forgotten about the HALS turntable. I will go back through my photos and check that out. If I recall it would fit in a 20' area.

Regards,

-Richard


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

John, thanks for the additional info. I had forgotten about the turntable at HALS. I will go back to my photos and check that out...

Regards,

-Richard


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By doublereefed on 13 Sep 2011 10:44 AM 
John, thanks for the additional info. I had forgotten about the turntable at HALS. I will go back to my photos and check that out...

Regards,

-Richard 



Richard, the turntable at Hals is 48" so as to accomodate any size locomotive up to and including an Aster Big Boy. It is solid steel, both the bridge and the pit, and is patterned after the ones made by Eagle Wings, but to save money constructed locally. Unfortunately I do not have an up to date picture of the steaming area.


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