# Holy C-Rap it's Cold



## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Right Now, 1-7-2010 @ 8:15 pm. it is -1 degree with a -24 degree wind chill.....things are going to freeze and break off before too much longer!!!!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Right. Cold. Very cold. But WHERE are you ?


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Did I ever tell you how much I hate the cold weather?




















































































................................................................................................................................In my next life I am going to live in the tropics. You can always remove your clothes to keep cool, but you can never put enough on to keep warm!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You ain't seen nuttin' yet... regardless of whether you think the "C-Rap" should be set aside for the worship and glory of God or not. Personally, I offer the best I have to God and put the C-Rap down the toilet. As for the temperature, it was -27 last night where I am right now and that was not counting the wind-chill. But like I said, "You ain't seen nuttin' yet!"


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

It's an absolutely balmy 68 degrees here in Burbank, So Cal, at 6:50pm. Supposed to be in the mid-seventies through the weekend and into next week. Hard to believe we live in the same country!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 07 Jan 2010 07:45 PM 
You ain't seen nuttin' yet... it was -27 last night where I am right now and that was not counting the wind-chill. But like I said, "You ain't seen nuttin' yet!"



That would have probably beat EVERY location in Alaska last night. Definitely NOT a night to be running trains !


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Think warm. T H I N K W A R M


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Uhmmmm................................yeah. Uh huh. 
Question for anybody: The relative humidity is 60%. The dew point is -4 and the lows tonight are going to hit -6 with a 25mph wind. Layman's terms: it's _COLD!! _However, what happens when the temp goes below the dewpoint when it's this bloody cold?!!


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Northern Kansas Ron, it will be -14 by the time the night is over, and -19 Friday (straight temp)


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh great! (I am heading east to Topeka tomorrow.) Don't you just love deep freezes!!


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I am glad someone started this thread - GET THIS! 
Woke up Christmas morning to no heat! Got by on fireplace and Kerosene/elec. heaters until following Monday. Simple $45 service call and it was patched up, needs new $500 part to make it last until something else breaks - 15-20 year old furnace. 
New Years night - No heat again! Went Friday through last night without furnace with 8 degree weather in So. IL> Had to find $2800. for new furnace and another $450 in Propane today. I was able to maintain 58-65 degree temps inside. Setting alarm to awake every 60 minutes to stoke fire etc. Wife "lived" in the bedroom, I had the couch for last 2 weeks. She was crying and had a real breakdown. Got 3" of snow last night, not bad but my driveway is 1/4 mile of steep grade so.... I warmed up the 4x4 Yukon for her to drive to work... It was stuck in 4 low all day! It just never ends eh? Since it is soooo cold, it is easy to find cracks and crevices too, so I have been weatherproofing the house also throughout this ordeal. The boys had a snow day at home today and the 5 year old puked on me (sick) Meantime, keep in mind I have to work my job from home everyday! 
Thank the Lord I do - IT COULD BE WORSE!


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

I moved to Dallas for the cooler weather (I used to live in McAllen), but this is not exactly what I had in mind! Lows in the teens, highs in the twenties. Rained last night. Got up this morning to go to work, 19 degrees and ice everywhere. TV was showing lots of wrecks, closed bridges and roads. Phooey on this, I went back to bed. Got up at 10:30, sun shining bright, no ice, dry roads but still only 22 degrees. If I wanted this nonsense I would have moved back to Michigan! 

Tell me again about this "Global Warming" thing.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jan 2010 08:42 PM 
I am glad someone started this thread - GET THIS! 
Woke up Christmas morning to no heat! Got by on fireplace and Kerosene/elec. heaters until following Monday. Simple $45 service call and it was patched up, needs new $500 part to make it last until something else breaks - 15-20 year old furnace. 
New Years night - No heat again! Went Friday through last night without furnace with 8 degree weather in So. IL> Had to find $2800. for new furnace and another $450 in Propane today. I was able to maintain 58-65 degree temps inside. Setting alarm to awake every 60 minutes to stoke fire etc. Wife "lived" in the bedroom, I had the couch for last 2 weeks. She was crying and had a real breakdown. Got 3" of snow last night, not bad but my driveway is 1/4 mile of steep grade so.... I warmed up the 4x4 Yukon for her to drive to work... It was stuck in 4 low all day! It just never ends eh? Since it is soooo cold, it is easy to find cracks and crevices too, so I have been weatherproofing the house also throughout this ordeal. The boys had a snow day at home today and the 5 year old puked on me (sick) Meantime, keep in mind I have to work my job from home everyday! 
Thank the Lord I do - IT COULD BE WORSE! 
Exactly why I keep my RV in the backyard with hookups. Once the A/C was out for two weeks. Once we had furnace problems. Nice and comfy in our fifth wheel. Makes great guest quarters also.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 07 Jan 2010 07:51 PM 
It's an absolutely balmy 68 degrees here in Burbank, So Cal, at 6:50pm. Supposed to be in the mid-seventies through the weekend and into next week. Hard to believe we live in the same country! 

...you should see all the yahoos from Texas and Alabama walking round here in shorts the " Big Game "


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Haven't you heard from the "experts" that this is all because of man-made Global Warming? Forget about these "hiccups" in the temperatures causing snow where it hasn't happened for decades and record colds because 2009 was the "hottest year on record"(!!) I honestly can't decide which it is; do they _really_ believe this crap that they are trying to shove down our throats or do they just believe that _we _are stupid enough to swallow their crap without thinking?!! I love the headline that was used when the "hacked" emails were _finally_ commented on by the State-controlled media: "Review of Confidential Emails Confirms Global Warming is Real but Details not Pretty" (!!) Changing data in order to make your computer models work is not merely "junk science" but _fraud!_ I'll end my rant by quoting that same article: "......the only two countries to experience cooling temperatures are the United States and Canada. The rest of the globe recorded the highest temps on record for 2009 with the second highest being 2008....." (!!) _Translation: Don't try and confuse the situation with facts as we have already made up our minds!! _Talk about junk science, this is junk journalism!!! (Here endeth the rant.)


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm compelled to respond to Steve's rant - while there certainly are ideologues within the academic and scientific community, as there are everywhere, there still exists a broad consensus among those scientists who methodically study the topic that global warming is a legitimate problem and that greenhouse gas emissions are the primary cause. I'm not interested in getting into a fight over this, Steve, but I like to think that I'm not "stupid" nor do I think I've "swallowed their crap without thinking."


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Regardless of the specific topic, when only one side has free and open access to the underlying baseline data, and methodology utilized, and in turn makes available only the conclusions they've arrived at. Makes it next to impossible for me to lend very much in the way of validity and credibility to anything they have to say.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Global warming may indeed be occurring........and it might not! The problem I have with it is that it's proponents change the "facts" to fit their models and downplay any emperical evidence to the contrary. They conspire to present a "broad concensus" and seek to discredit any contrary evidence. That's junk science. _Real_ science is objective. It tests theories and rejects those that can't be proven by the observable facts..._all_ of them and not just the ones that they find convenient! Journalism is even worse! From my perspective, most of the young journalists coming out of the colleges and universities have agendas (i.e. "I want to make a difference!") which in itself isn't necessarilly wrong but can lead to biased reporting. Many journalists have made up their minds that Man-made Global Warming is not only a fact but that it is so serious that every conceivable effort must be made to combat it regardless of any contraindicating information. Thus we get reporting with no investigation, barely more than regurgitating the mantra of the Global-Warming alarmists and by my perspective,_ that_ is junk journalism! 
My problem with this whole thing is that there is no balance! We are told that it IS occurring and we aren't supposed to question anything! Take it on faith? Hmph! Sounds more like religion than science... All I'm saying is that there is enough contrary evidence that has yet to be properly addressed to keep this "theory" far from being fact! By the way, -10 tonight here in Kansas and that hasn't happened for _decades_ so I feel that I am within reason to question the "urgency" whereby _hundreds of billions_ of our tax dollars are being pledged to be spent! I think I'm being reasonable but I also have done the research and have had a converstion with a member of the team that shared the Nobel Prize with Al Gore. His response was eye-opening and much more measured than what is being reported. I don't want to start anything either and my comments were not meant to disparage anybody else as to whether they believe Global Warming exists or not. For me, the jury is still out but I definitely have trouble getting worked up about warming when the temps are colder than they have been since I was a boy! (Here really endeth the rant!)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm, a thousand+ scientist worldwide all agree the climate is changing. 

The biggest challence Steve is this, What will we do about it? Nothing? Something? sit back and wait for somewhere to go under the water? 

The oceans ARE rising, this have been documented continually since the 1900's, slowely but they still are risiing, The arctic IS melting and will soon be ice free for most of the summer months, the ice shelfs in the Antartcic are slowely breaking up, the ice sheets in Greenland are shrinking, and glaciers are in retreat worldwide, this all measurable and documented and all of which is putting more water into the oceans and the atmosphere, and that adds more energy into the weather system and its going to end up somewhere. The problem is that this is all unknown territory, we dont really know what the long term effects will be, the earth has historically been thru worse events in the past, the biggest difference is that the last time the temps rose and there was a world wide drought, about 400K years ago, there were only a few thousand proto human around, today we have over 6 billion, what are the effects of this going to be on those 6B people, I can see very bad things if the worst happens. 

Like I've said, we can bounce off the walls all day long debate the causes. I personally think it will it take something like Florida becoming an island or 3 feet of water in Times Square NYC before the neighsayers finally admit something is going on. I'm already at 1000 feet elevation and this may not affect me or you in our lifetimes, but our kids and grandchildren may inherit a world with a far harsher and inhospitable climate than we grew up in, thats what concerns me, thats why I'm paying attention to the whole issue.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 07 Jan 2010 08:34 PM 
Uhmmmm................................yeah. Uh huh. 
Question for anybody: The relative humidity is 60%. The dew point is -4 and the lows tonight are going to hit -6 with a 25mph wind. Layman's terms: it's _COLD!! _However, what happens when the temp goes below the dewpoint when it's this bloody cold?!!

It can snow even at that temp. Winds at 25 mph will make it feel like you are inside a frozen sand blaster. If you live near a river, it can still fog too. My Mom still asks why I did not return to Minnesota after retiring from the Army.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 08 Jan 2010 12:22 PM 
Hmmm, a thousand+ scientist worldwide all agree the climate is changing. 

The biggest challence Steve is this, What will we do about it? Nothing? Something? sit back and wait for somewhere to go under the water? 
     

Of course the climate is changing. EVERYTHING is changing. To assume there is much, if anything, we can do about that grants man more power than I think I even want man to have. 


And then, of course, all the arguments over anthropogenic global warming claim that we MUST reduce carbon dioxide emissions since THAT is the alleged man-caused culprit that will ultimately spell our doom. This is what we EXHALE. IF we are to make CO2 the villain, then what we are really saying is that man is the enemy and that in order to save the earth from man or man from man, he must be regulated  to the nth degree. Well, I am sorry, but MOST of us, including an increasing number of scientists don't buy that. It is not science, but politics. Once politics enters into the equation, science is no longer science but an EXCUSE for more government control. And for those who are greenies--the "true believers," AGW becomes nothing short of a kind of New Religion. THAT should scare the heck out of ANY rational person. The earth is NOT ending tomorrow and the sky is not falling in. Nor will we be inundated by the oceans that  have risen maybe one inch in the last century. In fact, there is now strong evidence that this process  has already reversed itself more than a decade ago. In any case, assuming the sky WAS falling in, there is NOTHING you, your government, ALL the world governments combined, or all your greenie friends and faux scientists and so-called climate experts could do about it: nothing at all.  Our resources need to be directed toward activities that will actually advance mankind as opposed to being thrown away or otherwise flushed down the toilet to the alter of Gaia --the religion of the Far Left wing-nuts who have adopted "green" as their new god. 



So the correct answer is: "We will do *nothing*, nothing at all to solve a problem that was conveniently  invented to advance certain political objectives."


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## neals645 (Apr 7, 2008)

Regardless of whether Global Climate change is real or a hoax, it's very unlikely that human beings will take significant steps to slow or reverse it. Almost every country that signed Kyoto has failed to comply. Looking forward, most countries that agree to reduce emissions will again fail to comply, while China and India continue to increase emissions very quickly. 

What is real is the pressure on the US to cripple our own economy via cap-n-trade and also make Climate Change compensation payments to 3rd world countries, especially in Africa. Never mind that the $ won't actually go to the people or do anything to ameliorate the effects of climate change in those countries. 

Neal


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh we're NOT going to STOP it, I didnt ask how are we going to STOP it. I asked a simple question: what ARE WE GOING TO DO about it, bit of a difference. While I think the threat is real, I'm also very cynical about any chances to fix it. These mechanisms take centuries to adjust, you could stop burning everything on earth tommorow it will still take centuries to reflect that change. The damage is done my friends, the world will not adjust to us, we will have to adjust to the world. 

Ron isnt one of Alaskas biggest emerging problems the permafrost becoming UNpermafrost due to rising average temps every summer and the resulting problems its causing with the highways, railways and pipeline installations in the northern parts of the state? But you're comments also illustrate my point exactly, for many people they will not beleive that this could be happening until the brownian matter strikes the high rotational air movement device and they are directly effected by it. 

I dont think anything will be done until either the Antarctic or Greenland ice sheets collapse and Florida starts becoming an island property or we get some very real and dangerous weather shifts. If this happens for example: How will we deal with rising sea levels and the resultant coastal erosion? Will we build sea walls like the Neatherlands? Move millions of people inland? Raise or relocate hundreds of miles of highways and railways that hug the coast?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing will be done by any country until all the *CHEAP TO EXTRACT* carbon based fossil fuels are exhausted. Then it won't matter anyway. 
There will not be any more carbon pollution occurring. The remaining fossil fuel deposits will be so overpriced because of shortages, the alternative energy sources will definitely become competitive. 

The real problem is not what amount of carbon pollution mankind is generating. Rather it is the chopping down of all the forests. 
You know, those big green things that are designed to absorb carbon. 
The Amazon and other Equatorial forests are the lungs of the Earth. They are disappearing at an ever quickening pace. Mainly to grow Palm oil and cattle for McDonald's and other low cost fast food outlets. 

The really smart countries are those that are taking steps to position themselves for when the fossil fuels run out. There are plenty of alternative energy sources available right now and they *WILL* become the norm in the lifetime of my grandchildren. 

The only real problem will be how to power air travel.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 08 Jan 2010 05:04 PM 









Oh we're NOT going to STOP it, I didnt ask how are we going to STOP it. I asked a simple question: what ARE WE GOING TO DO about it, bit of a difference. While I think the threat is real, I'm also very cynical about any chances to fix it. These mechanisms take centuries to adjust, you could stop burning everything on earth tommorow it will still take centuries to reflect that change. The damage is done my friends, the world will not adjust to us, we will have to adjust to the world. 

Ron isnt one of Alaskas biggest emerging problems the permafrost becoming UNpermafrost due to rising average temps every summer and the resulting problems its causing with the highways, railways and pipeline installations in the northern parts of the state? But you're comments also illustrate my point exactly, for many people they will not beleive that this could be happening until the brownian matter strikes the high rotational air movement device and they are directly effected by it. 

I dont think anything will be done until either the Antarctic or Greenland ice sheets collapse and Florida starts becoming an island property or we get some very real and dangerous weather shifts. If this happens for example: How will we deal with rising sea levels and the resultant coastal erosion? Will we build sea walls like the Neatherlands? Move millions of people inland? Raise or relocate hundreds of miles of highways and railways that hug the coast? 

Implicit in your statements is that there is actually something we can do about climate change and that somehow regulating what humans do WILL make a difference. On top of that you seem to be assuming that even IF humans could somehow adjust the ambient temperature of the earth that they would have the wisdom to know WHICH WAY to adjust, ie: determine an optimum temperature and then regulate accordingly. I maintain that such assumptions give man far more credit than is due us human beings. 


It IS true that Alaska is losing permafrost, that many glaciers are melting back AND that certain coastal communities in the far north are now subjected to a far higher degree of beach erosion than has been known in the RECENT PAST. While these are probably not desirable changes, the REAL question is, assuming they are not, a) is man responsible for this and if so to what degree ? and b) assuming he is (BIG and unprovable assumption) b) what , if anything can he do about it? 


I am among those who does not buy anthropogenic global warming theory, which is based on the severely flawed hockey stick scenario. I do, however, agree with Tony Walsham that far too many trees are being cut in the southern hemisphere. THAT can be fixed, although I doubt that the countries directly affected are prepared to pay the political costs to do so. As for us here in the northern hemisphere, were I given a choice, I would definitely _prefer_ a slight warming of the environment as opposed to reversing any alleged rise in temperatures. Most of the warming recorded in Alaska over the last three decades, if not all of it, can be directly attributed to Pacific Decadal Oscillation which is VERY local and has nothing to do with AGW. By very local, I mean that much of the rest of the northern hemisphere has seen absolutely NO measurable rise in temperatures over the last century as near as we can tell. Thus for man to attempt to regulate any warming in our part of the world man would have to attempt to alter the Pacific Ocean currents. You sure you want to pursue that line of thinking ?


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

what would happen, if we were able to reduce CO²? - we would starve. not you and me, but millions of poor people in the world. 
why? - simply, because less CO² would mean less foodcrops harvested. 

that is a provable fact. (just compare the quantities of food raised per acre with the quantities of "C" used to fertilize in the last hundred years) 

on the other hand we have "proof" from computersimulations, that tell us how hot it will become soon. 
should we believe these simulation results? - i don't think so. 
the computer simulations are still at such an early stage in development, that they can't even see next months weather locally. 
what should make me believe, that they are better at a much bigger task? 
those clima-predicting computerprograms don't even compute the influence of H²O in the air. (too complex for the existing programs, and too much data to feed) 
so good old water, being it in its form as clouds or as airhumidity, is simply excluded from the computing of our climate. 

untill they learn to include that into their programs, the global warming predictions will be in my opinion as faked as a beer without alcohol.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The last time I looked at a globe there is (probably now was) just as much equatorial rainforest in the Northern hemisphere as in the Southern hemisphere. 

Cutting down the lungs of the World is an equal opportunity crime against the Planet. 

The equation is simple. 
Grow more trees instead of chopping them down willy nilly in the name of growth and prosperity. 
More trees = less carbon. 
Problem solved.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 08 Jan 2010 07:42 PM 
The last time I looked at a globe there is (probably now was) just as much equatorial rainforest in the Northern hemisphere as in the Southern hemisphere. 

Cutting down the lungs of the World is an equal opportunity crime against the Planet. 

The equation is simple. 
Grow more trees instead of chopping them down willy nilly in the name of growth and prosperity. 
More trees = less carbon. 
Problem solved. 
I like your approach, Tony. One can never have _enough_ trees (or was that model trains?).


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Too phunny!!!!!! As far as I'm concerned if it's cold in the winter and hot in the summer at least for this hemisphere.....things would appear to be working correctly? I don't know 'bout the rest of ya'll know but I hope it continues to work this way or we definitely have problems. Doohhh!!!!!

Actually I'm kinda hoping it gets a bit colder here........we need to kill of some of the bug population that seems to have exploded 'round here over the last couple years. Hard to tell how cold it is outside when it's warm inside. Hehehe Just a couple last things.........and one a bit ironic too.....we have cut down probably 14 trees this year for garden and other concerns but that's to control nature so it doesn't control us........we also traded in both the Accord and the Odyssey on two shinny new Hybrids...one Prius and one Fusion. The ironic part is that the move had nor has anything to do with the green side of things.....well mabe it does since it was purely economic so that'd be "green-backs".

Has anyone ever thought that the 8 billion people on the planet might be the biggest issue regarding CO2? So....maybe everyone should hold their breath for a total of 10 minutes a day and see if that helps. Hehehe Just a thought.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

27 Degrees here, Heat works, Car works, Girlfreind works out of house by the way.......... all is rite in the world...........







P.S. havent run a real toy train in 2 months


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 07 Jan 2010 07:37 PM 
In my next life I am going to live in the tropics. You can always remove your clothes to keep cool, but you can never put enough on to keep warm!



I have always found the opposite to be true..
I cant stand the heat!
I could never live south of Virginia..Florida or Arizona would be unbearable..
if its above 80 degrees, I dont like to go outside.. 


In the summer, you cant escape the heat, no matter how many clothes you remove! 

(I grew up without air conditioning! summer heat was inescapable..)

but in the wnter, you just turn up the heat, or add layers if you are going outside..

I find it MUCH easier to stay warm and comfortable in the winter, and far less easy to stay cool and comfortable in the summer.. 


Even with our 5 months of winter, I would much rather live in Western NY than in Florida..
our Springs, Summers and Autumns are gorgrous..
we seldom hit 90 degrees..and we have loooong stretches of 40 to 70 degrees, which is perfect..

Scot


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...our Springs, Summers and Autumns are gorgrous.. 

When I interviewed for a job in Rochester, it was a sunny, mild, 80-degree day. We did the interview at a pic-nic table in the back of the station next to the Genesee River. It was picture-perfect weather. 

They neglected to tell me they thought that was hot. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

To each his own I suppose. 

I can't stand the cold. 

Something else to consider is the amount of energy it takes to keep warm. A lot more than it does to keep cool. Assuming of course you have cooling water nearby.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Don't like the cold either. 9F here this morning in Sunny View.
Ralph


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Never been injured by cold. I have been injured by heat. However, I'm still a summertime kid


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I thought moving to the south would eliminate the cold temps I put up with in ILL and KS, Well guess not. Got up this morning to 13 degrees now that is cold for here and its been like this for over a week which also is not normal. Good thing got a fire place to make it feel better. Yep if I do loose heat, or air in the summer, just go to the camper and wait it out. Got a better TV in the camper then I do in the house any way and get more and better channels than cable. Later RJD


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## devrayfan (Dec 29, 2008)

Here in Florida today the high was 37. What the heck happened to that Global Warming thing???


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in my long ago college geology classes, before things got so political, we took a stab at what is now called 'global warming'. The consensus was, yes, the earth does go through periodic warming and cooling trends, and these can and do have drastic effects. Blackburn and I both live near remnants of the ice sheets that once covered much of north america up until a few thousand years ago. 

What we turned up back then (early 1980's) was that a warming trend, lasting for something on the order of several decades to as much a century or three did seem to be getting under way. That had the potential to increase sea level by something on the order of five or six feet. However, it would be followed (acutally paralled in some previously 'warm' places by a cooling trend - colder air carrying much more moisture than usual which would fall in the form of snow in those places.) The end result, a few hundred years down the road would be the start of a new ice age, with widespread glaciation covering much of north america. 

It should be pointed out that these calculations are not easy at all; there are a lot of variables, and all too often something relatively minor in one part of the world can have considerable impact elsewhere. (almost as severe as the 'butterfly flapping its wings in the amazon which helps create a hurricane in the gulf). I doubt if any of the computer models currently in use are sophisticated enough to accurately account for all the variables, hence I have doubts. 

Beyond that, we are looking at a roughly century long warming trend of sorts here in the north, resulting in rapidly retreating glaciers and a severe decline in arctic pack ice. The Greenland ice cap also looks like it *might* be starting to collapse, in that case ocean levels might go up by as much as a foot or so over the next ten or twenty years (again, we start getting into variables).


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Well I survived the -20 straight temp last night, made it all the way up to 8 today. Suppose to start warming up tomorrow and be all the way up to 35 by Thursday.... WooooHoooo


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ThinkerT on 09 Jan 2010 06:52 PM 

Beyond that, we are looking at a roughly century long warming trend of sorts here in the north, resulting in rapidly retreating glaciers and a severe decline in arctic pack ice. The Greenland ice cap also looks like it *might* be starting to collapse, in that case ocean levels might go up by as much as a foot or so over the next ten or twenty years (again, we start getting into variables). I have seen contradictory information on this. Apparently the satellite imagery on the Arctic icepack has been misread. Regrettably, there is a very strong possibility that we really are entering a long period of DECREASING temperatures here in the northern hemisphere. I would not be getting too concerned about rising ocean levels. However, we very well may be having to purchase considerably more heating oil or other forms of energy to keep warm. This is not what I wanted to see happen.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I have seen contradictory information on this. Apparently the satellite imagery on the Arctic icepack has been misread. Regrettably, there is a very strong possibility that we really are entering a long period of DECREASING temperatures here in the northern hemisphere. I would not be getting too concerned about rising ocean levels. However, we very well may be having to purchase considerably more heating oil or other forms of energy to keep warm. This is not what I wanted to see happen. 

My info, such as it is or was, came mostly from on site investigation. Way back a couple hundred years ago when the bold sailors of old were trying to find the Nprthwest Passage (and getting themselves killed in droves in the process), they measured the depth of the ice fairly frequently. Worked out to an average of about 20 feet. In the 60's and 70's when the oil companies were barging insane amounts of stuff to the slope, they also measured the thickness of the ice fairly often. New average thickness - four to six feet. Just a couple of years ago, the Northwest Passage - that exact same route that was so choked with ice it was impassable even with specially designed ships just a century ago - was ice free in the summer months, and has been each summer since then. (we actually calculated this out back in that geology class long ago - yep, sometime around the turn of the century, the Northwest Passage should become open). Rather astonishing. 

It is a similiar deal with the Greenland icecap. The glaciers there have been in retreat...well for something like a century now. However, that trend started accelerating a couple decades back, and now the edge of the icecap proper is starting to go. The locals are extatic, with visions of long buried minerals in commercially exploitable quantities coming to light. Others are wondering about the melt rate, which, for a while, was almost exponential (but it might or might not have leveled out somewhat in the past few years).


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

In that case, you had better hope that this warming was accelerated by the actions of mankind. Then we may be able to do something about it. 

If it is not mankind that has accelerated the warming, we are all doomed. 

Doomed I tell you!!! 

*DOOMED!!! *


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

We are in a heat wave [KS] today. Temperature got up to +15F. 

As to the comments on global warming.......

In the '90s, I taught on a middle school environmental team that won an EPA 3rd place National award [Save the dolphins project beat us]. As part of our teaching the kids environmental issues, we invited several guest speakers each year from related fields. One guest that spoke to our kids in four different school years was a Professor from University of Kansas, that had been to the North and South Poles 17 seasons taking ice core samples. At that time, in the early 90s, there was much speculation that we were going into a global COOLING phase. The Professor's opinion, based on Empirical Data collected by his Arctic and Antarctic teams as well as others was that we were in a NORMAL cooling and warming cycle much as has for multiple centuries.

JimC.

BTW, the months beginning with Aug, Sept, Nov, Dec, and Jan have been much cooler than usual.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

In the '90s, I taught on a middle school environmental team that won an EPA 3rd place National award [Save the dolphins project beat us]. As part of our teaching the kids environmental issues, we invited several guest speakers each year from related fields. One guest that spoke to our kids in four different school years was a Professor from University of Kansas, that had been to the North and South Poles 17 seasons taking ice core samples. At that time, in the early 90s, there was much speculation that we were going into a global COOLING phase. The Professor's opinion, based on Empirical Data collected by his Arctic and Antarctic teams as well as others was that we were in a NORMAL cooling and warming cycle much as has for multiple centuries. 

That is kinda sorta what we were thinking back then in those long ago geology classes. We were concerned about a warming trend in the arctic/subarctic areas tripping off first colder weather in the temperate areas, then drastically colder weather which might or might not be in sync with an ending of the polar warming, and eventually an ice age. However, there are a lot of variables in this mess, and as of a few years ago, anyhow, there were no computer models good enough to accurately account for all of them. The other thing here is we are talking about trends lasting at least centuries - we could very well see warming at the arctic/antarctic for another hundred or two hundred years or longer, and either a slight increase, no increase, or even a decrease in temperatures in more moderate latitudes.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 09 Jan 2010 08:40 PM 
In that case, you had better hope that this warming was accelerated by the actions of mankind. Then we may be able to do something about it. 

If it is not mankind that has accelerated the warming, we are all doomed. 

Doomed I tell you!!!


*DOOMED!!!*


  Yep. We're all gonna die.  It's in the cards.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep. We're all gonna die. It's in the cards. Life = An STD with 100% Mortality.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup. (Actually, it's all the cause of _tomatoes!_) Don't believe me? Think about it: do you know _anybody_ that has eaten a tomato that hasn't died? The moment you eat one (or a derrivative such as tomato juice, sauce or paste as is used in chili, spagetti sauce, etc...) you're doomed! 100% mortality!! Of course some people have a greater resistance to the insidious tomato and may continue to show little or no signs of the tomato poisoning for years or perhaps decades but death is inevitable. True, people will die of other causes but always remember that once you have ingested a tomato you are terminal! (Sorry, I couldn't resist it. Steve's post reminded me of this example in debate of a "fallacious argument" that is chock full of "facts" that are all true but lead to a fallacious conclusion! 
I'm not trying to say anything by this other than to relate a humorous story but it _does _bear thinking about that we can be inundated with "incontrivertable facts" which _can_ lead us to completely fallacious conclusions! This is why jumping on bandwagons is something I try to avoid (not always successfully!)


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I just heard on the news that parts of China have as much as TWENTY SIX FEET of snow...... can you say tunnel .....


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