# Body-mount Kadee for Accucraft 1/29 reefer.



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Does anyone know what Kadee #1 scale, body-mount coupler will fit the Accucraft 1/29 scale reefer? 










https://www.accucraftestore.com/rs-g-scale

https://www.accucraftestore.com/g-reefer

Kadee only has the truck-mount coupler listed on their site.
The Accucraft car comes with truck-mounted couplers, but also includes a body-mount coupler box with Accucraft couplers installed. So for Kadees, it would be possible to:

1. Use a Kadee coupler and Kadee coupler box.
or.
2. Perhaps use a Kadee coupler in the existing/provided Accucraft coupler box.

Im looking for body-mount #1 Kadees, the smaller Kadee.

thanks,
Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We normally call those cars AML, which is all 1:29, but I see that Accucraft added the 1:29 line to the Accucraft site and then called them G scale, no mention of American Mainline.

but http://www.americanmainline.com (aml) still works. (in the world of computers, duplicating information (instead of just pointing to the same info from multiple locations, causes errors, one of the multiple locations seems to always be missing something)

In any case, if you get to the cars by going to the american mainline site, it tells you a bit more, the cars are supplied with both truck mount and body mount.

The standard G scale Kadees body mount perfectly no mods, even the screws to mount them are supplied.

Fred was insistent on the fact that Kadee body mounts just bolt on no mods.

https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=173&Itemid=207

I think the "boss" shown in the article is now gone.

Greg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg,
I'll try it with the Kadee 1906, should work fine.
I will report back..

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The will not be the right height if you use the #1 vs. the G scale as I stated.

Get some of the Kadee shims to compensate.

Greg - 772


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, I will check the height and shim them if necessary.

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe mounting holes same dimensions though, if that helps a little bit.

I did buy a pack of Kadee shims, very convenient 

Greg - 771


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

The 1906 or older style 820/920 will work with shims. My favorite for body mounts is the 1789 or the newer style 1907. They don't need quite as much shim. Most likely 1/16. Could very depending on wheels. I have well over a hundred cars and locos with 1789/1907 conversions.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

One caveat with the newer-style Kadee #1 couplers. If you're mixing them with the Accucraft 1:32 couplers, the knuckles on the new Kadee couplers are j-u-s-t small enough to where they may slip out of a closed Accucraft coupler if there is sufficient drag on the train. It doesn't happen often, but often enough to warrant mentioning. 

Later,

K


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Body Mounting Kadees On AML Reefer Car*

I realize the original post is with respect to body mounting Kadee #1 scale model 1906 type couplers, however, the following info. may provide some insights with me using the larger "G" scale coupler.

The AML wood side refrigerator car shown below has body mounted larger "G" scale Kadee 900 centerset couplers using the AML boxes, albeit with some extra work. I could have body mounted the whole Kadee 906 assembly of which the Kadee 900 is the coupler, but I wanted to try it.










I discovered some of these AML cars tend to have warped floors, so this had to be addressed so couplers would be level and align with the Kadee 980 gauge.










For detailed description, see vignette hosted for me by Greg E on his Web site, title:
"*AML reefers with Kadees and AML coupler boxes*"

-Ted


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I never knew that Kadee G scale and #1 scale coupler *boxes* were a totally different size!  I knew the couplers themselves were different sized of course, but I never realized the boxes were not the same. For some reason, I always thought the draft gear boxes were identical, with only the coupler heads being different sizes. (not only is the #1 scale coupler itself smaller, but the entire draft gear box is also significantly smaller..who knew! probably everyone but me! 

(I started using some #1 couplers years ago, maybe even a decade ago, but I have never owned any Kadee G-scale couplers.)

New holes will need to be drilled on the AML coupler pad if I want to use the #1 coupler boxes. (which I do)..shouldn't be a big deal though. 

As Greg predicted, it will also require a thin shim for proper height. I ordered some #841 gear box shims along with a new batch of 1906 couplers..The shims were only $3, so not a big loss..guess I will give them to someone in the club!  I'll just make shims out of sheet styrene.

Actually, one shim will be useful!  because the AML cars are set up for G-scale kadees, with the three holes already drilled, I can use one G-scale shim as a template to determine how far out the edge of the coupler box needs to extend from the end of the car, then drill the holes accordingly. So the shim will still make a useful template, so its good I bought the pack of shims afterall.

stay tuned..more to come.

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

$3 is cheap for the convenience. Sorry, I thought you realized they were different boxes. I think even the shank is a different thickness... it was a dumb move if you ask me, they should have made them the same.

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*AML's Reefer Proprietary Coupler!*




Scottychaos said:


> Well, I never knew that Kadee G scale and #1 scale coupler *boxes* were a totally different size!  ...
> Scot



Scot,

Just a heads up warning!

I don't know about the smaller Kadee #1 scale 1906 centerset coupler, but I do know that the 906, or predecessor 830, centerset "G" coupler, when body mounted on the AML floor pad, did not align with the Kadee gauge (too low to railhead) for two reasons:
(1) The car's chassis (floor) may be warped downward at the ends (And there is no factory fastening at the ends to the car body shell.) Example floor shown upside down:










(2) Even if the floor end were to be perfectly straight, the factory pad is too low to the railhead when mounting a Kadee "G" centerset coupler. Since the factory AML coupler has an upward offset, the factory AML coupler is more likely to align with the Kadee gauge.










Though it may look so, it appears AML did not design the floor coupler box pads for mounting Kadees but seemed to emulate Kadees with their own proprietary design.

This info. may be of concern if the expectation is for the Kadee 1906 to align with it's intended Kadee coupler height gauge - in which case putting a shim on the floor pad could worsen the situation by lowering the coupler to the railhead even more so.

-Ted


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for info Ted! much appreciated.

The stock AML coupler pad moulded into the floor does have the three holes for screws that exactly match the Kadee G-scale coupler pocket. I dont have a G-scale coupler box to test it with, but I do have the G-scale shims, and the hole pattern of the shims matches the AML coupler pad. So AML must have made their own coupler box screw pattern to be the same as the Kadee G-scale box.

but the Kadee #1 scale coupler box mounting holes are completely different, so I will need to drill three new holes in the pad, but thats not a problem. The only real unknown is how far the coupler should stick out beyond the edge of the car, I dont really have any guidance for that. But as I mentioned in the last post, I think I can use a G-scale shim as a guide, and use the outer edge of the shim, when lined up with the screw holes, to determine the outer edge of the #1 coupler box. Will likely work fine, I'll report back.

I held up the coupler box against the car just to do a test fit, and it appeared slightly too high to match the gauge, indicating it might need a shim to lower it slightly..More details on that soon as well, when I actually install some couplers..I'll do it this weekend.

thanks,
Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Fred Devin lead the Accucraft "charge" to 1:29. All the AML rolling stock was designed to handle the standard G scale body mount Kadees. 

Fred did a lot of research and knew that the #1 scale couplers were more problematic for many people. Additional wisdom was in supplying both truck and body mount coupler options.

Greg - 756


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg,

That may have been Fred's intent, but based on the two wood side Reefers I have, the implementation fell short. With the way the car is made, the mounted Kadee "G scale" couplers did not align with the Kadee gauge.

Another issue with these cars have to do with the truck's side frames. It's wheel base between journal boxes is way too long (when scale up is 5 foot, 9.6 inch) resulting in a distorted appearance.










-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll have to go back and check mine, I could be mistaken, I cut the post off the chassis, and then put the kadee box on and it was fine. Will double check this weekend.

https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=173&Itemid=207

I think what I did is cut the post and then use the Kadee coupler box... you shimmed the post and used the AML coupler box, right?

Greg - 651


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*AML Reefer & Body Mount "G" Coupler*

Greg,

No shims; I depressed the floor, and then screwed the floor end to the end bulkhead to keep it stable, and then installed the coupler assembly. (Keep in mind that the Reefer car has a different chassis / floor with different coupler pad than the AML 40 foot box car that your link pertains to.)









See vignette hosted by you on your Web site, title
"*AML Wood Side Reefer Fitted with Kadee 900 Couplers in AML Boxes*"

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I know my link was to the box car... maybe I have not fitted the kadees to the reefers yet, I'm going out to look in the garage tomorrow, and also check my chassis and see if I have the same situation as you.

But on the box cars, hmm... I looked, I don't see a vignette from you...

A trip to the garage... now that my layout is back together, I can finally run a reefer block...

Greg - 749


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Doskaris said:


> Greg,
> 
> That may have been Fred's intent, but based on the two wood side Reefers I have, the implementation fell short. With the way the car is made, the mounted Kadee "G scale" couplers did not align with the Kadee gauge.
> 
> ...


Ted,
I know NG reefers had a longer wheelbase on their trucks because the brake shoes were mounted on the internal part of the trucks...near the bolster...they were designed that way to prevent water dripping on the shoes from the ice hatches. I'm not sure if standard gauge reefers were designed this way.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*AML Wood Side Reefer Issues*

Scot, 
My apology to you for digressing from your initial thread post about Kadee #1 gauge coupler use.

That said, I think you were concerned about the location of the coupler box striker plate.
Looking on page 92 of book ("Pacific Fruit Express", Second Edition, by Anthony W. Thompson, etc., Published by Signature Press, ISBN1-930013-03-05) shows a drawing of a similar wood side reefer to ours. The drawing shows the striker is dimensioned at 5 7/16 inch from the bulkhead sill. Scaling this down to 1/29th results in 0.1875 inch

Greg, 
You are correct. I have not done a vignette on AML's 40 standard gauge box car; however, I do have a vignette on AML's short wheel base freight trucks that includes the box car, title: 
"*AML freight car truck problems*"

Gary,
Thank you for your info.
Do you know what the wheel base measures on the narrow gauge Reefer, or maybe a picture to post?
I based judgement on the wood side standard gauge reefer with reference to the previously cited PFE book. Trucks that look like the AML ones were used on the prototype PFE WP wood side reefer cars that I have, of which is shown in the PFE book on page 107. (Likewise for the PFE SP / UP car shown on page 135.)

As to standard gauge friction bearing trucks, the illustration below has many different brand trucks that includes wheel base measurements.










Given the above choices, it seems that the AML short wheel base truck that is used on their 40 foot box cars might be more appropriate to use on AML's wood side reefer.

-Ted


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Ted,

According to the Ozark Miniatures site listing for the old Bob Hartford line, the narrow gauge reefer trucks were 4'-6" wheel base.

Bob C.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Bob,

That wheel measurement is presumably for 1/29 scale and is very small.

-Ted


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Ted,

That wheel base, 4'-6", is for any scale. That is the axle to axle measurement in 1:1 scale feet. The trucks sold by Ozark Miniatures are the old Bob Hartford line and are scaled to 1:20.3, narrow gauge. So an axle to axle measurement in 1:29 would be 1.862". Hope that helps

Bob C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Was the wheelbase different between narrow gauge and standard gauge?

Greg - 740


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The Accucraft/AML 1/29 cars are models of Standard Gauge cars, 40-footers.

I have the book "Merchants Despatch" by Roger C. Hinman, which is all about the Despatch shops in East Rochester NY, controlled by the New York Central, where thousands of these reefers were built for almost 100 years..

The book has drawings! 
The drawings are nicely detailed, but dont have dimensions, so I have to interpolate.

The drawing is a 41-foot wood reefer, 1920's. 
im getting a truck wheelbase of 5.5 feet.

I believe these reefers used standard trucks of the era, nothing different or unusual specific to reefers only..so, Ted is most likely right, the truck wheelbase on the model is too long..

I didnt notice it!  and im fairly nit-picky..so most probably wont notice it either.

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

that makes the wheelbase 0.16" too long... good enough for the 10 foot rule, but indeed not to prototype dimensions.

Greg - 738


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

What's visually noticeable is the distorted appearance (Width to Height aspect) of the AML Reefer's truck.

-Ted


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Doskaris said:


> Scot,
> My apology to you for digressing from your initial thread post about Kadee #1 gauge coupler use.
> 
> Gary,
> ...


Ted,
Actually the wheelbase dimension on the NG arch bar trucks used on the D&RG for their 30 and 40 foot reefers was 4'-8", not 4'-6". According to the "bible" of D&RG rolling stock ("A Century + Ten D&RGW Narrow Gauge Freight Car s 1871 To 1981") by Robert Sloan, the reefers specifically ran on AC&F 4' 8" 20 ton arch bar trucks with inside brake shoes; inside brakes brakes were needed to prevent freezing of the brakes from water dripping from the ice bunkers.

I would gladly post some pictures and scans of the original drawings here, but alas we can't do this very easily anymore on MLS. This is my main reason for settling in on LSC. Now THAT site is shut down ! All my photos are over there now and don't have access to them today or the near future. I will post some info (photos and drawings) as soon as we get access again to LSC.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you Gary,

Much appreciated. But maybe getting into NG arch bar trucks given Scot's initial thread post would divert his topic too much and not be fair to him. It might be best to start a new thread about the arch bar trucks when you can get past the "mechanics" issues.

-Ted


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Couplers done!  here are the details:

Stock Accucraft/AML coupler pad, designed for the Kadee G-scale coupler:










These AML 1/29 scale reefers come with truck-mounted couplers installed. They also provide a coupler box for body-mount couplers, with a AML coupler. They made their coupler box the same size as the Kadee G-scale coupler box.

If you are using the Kadee G-scale coupler, no modifications are necessary! it will screw right into the provided pad and mounting holes. But for 1/29 scale, personally I think the Kadee G-scale couplers are too big, I prefer the Kadee #1 scale coupler.

the Kadee #1 coupler box is quite a bit smaller than the Kadee G-scale coupler box:










The couplers used are: #1906R Straight Centerset Couplers with Standard Body Mount - Rust (#1) (1906R) 

I determined the coupler box placement by placing the two cars next to each other, on their side, without trucks, and moving them next to each other to see where the coupler should be placed. (I dont have a Kadee G-scale coupler box to use as a guide) Based on that, I drilled holes for the #1 scale coupler box just ahead of the existing holes:










A 1-mm thick shim is needed to get the correct coupler height, according to the Kadee height gauge:










the coupler in place:










I was able to keep the mounting tangs for the truck-mounted couplers in place, I simply rotated the trucks 180 degrees.

I then painted the coupler box and the styrene shim with black paint, leaving only the coupler in the "rust" color. (you can also buy these couplers in black, I like the rust color)














































The MDT and the Lackawanna cars are the AML reefers. I also have a 1/29 scale USA Trains "steel reefer", the "State of Maine" car. It's the same size as the AML wood reefers:



















The USA trains car needs a much thicker shim than the AML cars, for the Kadee #1 coupler box.

And thats it for my 1/29 scale reefer trio. any questions, ask away! 
thanks,
Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to detract from Scot's posts, after the experience Ted had with warped chassis, I inspected several of mine (I have about 15 or 20), and I did not have the extreme warping Ted has. Using the G scale units, my couplers are a tiny bit low, and not quite level.

My solution will be to mill a bit off that coupler pad, thus raising and levelling the coupler. I'll make a jig for my mill and do all of them at the same time.

Greg - 691


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