# How Long is track expected to last?



## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello All,

Its been years since I have been here. Long story...no need to tell it.

However I was visited by Mother Nature severely this Spring. My elevated railroad was completely destroyed by a major wind storm. After that she dropped a 70 foot cottonwood tree on it. Needless to say very little survived.

I am fighting with the insurance company on the life of the track. Their "book" uses 10 years as the standard for "Model Railroads". I am trying to educate them on the difference between a model railroad and a garden railroad. The claims agent is receptive and has been looking at various web sites, forums and such for info and pricing. She can't locate anything on the expected life of track to.

I used all AC 332 brass track. Have tried to get an "Official" response to their query from Aristo but they aren't helping. Anyone have a link to something that gives me the info they require?

Thank you,

Andre`


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

a lot of the standard/wide gauge track i use is pushing 80 years old and i'm sure it will still be useful for quite some years to come.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

To add to my response to your similar question on the Aristo Forum, I just measured my track. My LGB which has been out for 25 years and I have used a Scotch Bright green pad on regularly shows no significant difference between new and used. My Aristo track which has been out since 1994 is a little taller than my LGB track. I don't have any new, unused Aristo track for comparison. 

Unless you use a very coarse sandpaper to clean your track it should last a very long time. Talking to Garden Railroaders in Arizona, the big problem they have is with the degrading of the ties in the hot sun, summer after summer. Since you are in Minnesota that shouldn't be a problem. 

You might check on EBAY and see what used track is going for. That could give you some idea as to how the market depreciates the track.

Chuck


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I guess you don't have replacement coverage? May want to consider it if not for future.


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

I had thought about painting the plastic track ties as an extra UV protection. Not sure if it would be worth fooling with. 

Doug


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The rail is no problem for wear, the issue becomes the ties really. Only the LGB and Aristo track I have seen the ties actually last over 20 years outside. Whatever the plastic it is well engineered. Then you have the scale rails and by far Sunset Valley and Llagas Creek handle the sun better then the rest. Showing no real fading and cracking.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

My LGB brass track has been outside for almost 27 years and no deterioration of the rail or the ties. Some fading of the color on the ties. On the other hand, I had some Aristo brass in that mix and those ties were gone in less than 10 years-SAME exposure as the LGB.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Someone mentioned spraying the ties with Armor All or something like that. I can't remember who, or what the end result was. My AMS code 250 ties have been down 7 years now, and some have faded, though they're still okay in terms of strength. The LGB ties on my dad's railroad are going strong after 27 years. (The redwood soaked in creosote is faring just as well after 32! Shame you can't get the stuff any more...) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Me... end result is that it works great.... use the Turtle Wax stuff in the lime green bottle. 

Spray every 6 months, or when the ties go gray. 

On Aristo track, the "spikes" will break off because the plastic stops being flexible if you don't spray it. 

The spray puts sunscreen on the plastic and adds plasticizers to keep the plastic pliable. 

By the way, for the OP, If you have Aristo track, it has a lifetime warranty, so it should never be worth anything less than new track, or replacement track. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Since it's for an insurance company, get a scientific answer. You know that the rail is made of brass, so find a brass manufacturer, and get their data sheet, and it should list the expected life. Then find out what the ties are made of, or something similar, like ABS, and get a data sheet showing the expected life. Then use the shorter for the depreciation rate. Make sure the material is UV resitant. 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... lifetime warranty... no depreciation.... notice the OP stated AC track, i.e. Aristo-Craft..... you are done... just tell them it is a lifetime warranty... 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Better yet, print out the lifetime warranty or copy it off the box. Then you have something your agent can use. 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

looked on the Aristo site, no joy on warranty information anywhere... I'm sure it was on the old site... Boxes of track come with some manual I believe which states the warranty. 

You could also probably find a post on the Aristo site, but I'll bet you insurance co. would not take that, even if the post was by the president. 

I'd contact Scott Polk directly to get something on letterhead. I have his email if you need it (and his cell phone ha ha!) 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The only thing AC gave a life time warranty on was the ties. Most likely only 5 years for the rail. But as most folks know rail in our hobby never really wears out unless you can run 24/7 for a few years and then it may need to be replaced due to gage wear on the inner rail. Later RJD


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 30 Aug 2012 10:21 AM 
Umm... lifetime warranty... no depreciation.... notice the OP stated AC track, i.e. Aristo-Craft..... you are done... just tell them it is a lifetime warranty... 

Greg 

No Greg, your information is incorrect. AristoCraft track does NOT carry a lifetime warrantee. _Only the ties do._ And that started around 1997. 
If the smog system of my car is guarenteed for life, and the car is totalled, they don't replace the car with a new one, nor do they give the value of a new car.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yep, you are right, I forgot to be specific... but as the only part of the track that seems to age, seems that you could make this case easily. 

I don't agree with your analogy... here's an appropriate analogy: 

now if your smog system was guaranteed for life (ties guaranteed for life) 
the car was insured (his property, including the track was insured) 
the rest of the car made from solid diamond and did not age or wear in 20 years (like his rails) 

then I'd agree to the analogy 

you missed the warranty on the car, bur more importantly, there is reason to depreciate the rest of the car, there is no reason to depreciate the metal rails if it is shown that 20 years later they are good as new. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Again you are incorrect and there certainly is reason to depreciate the track.

First off, the ties are only guarenteed against manufacture's defect, and specifically only if they fall apart and crumble like an Oreo cookie. I know because I sent some back under warrentee. Broken ties from physical abuse, broken tie plates due to pulling up the rails, discolored ties/rail, water stains, corrosion, bent joiners, even dirt and grime, etc. all depreciate the value, but are not included in the guarentee.

So why would anybody think that they should collect the value of new unless they had replacement value insurance?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, we are talking about the replacement value of used track to an insurance company. 

They are saying that it's worth less because it old, right? 

So, the rail does not age to be less useful in 10 years right? 

The track does not age to be less useful in 10 years and it is warranted from manufacturing defects. 

So if I have a piece of track that is 10 years old, it's no less useful or operational than a new piece of track, because all it has to do is hold gage and let trains run. 

Sure if there is a nuclear holocaust and it becomes radioactive and martians land and twist it into pretzels that's a different story, as you say. 

But that's NOT what the question is about. 

What it is about is what reason is there to depreciate old track. Since the track will last a lifetime on it's own (because the rail does not disappear, and the only "natural enemies" of the ties are covered by a lifetime warranty, then I see a good argument to get track of equal quality and condition back. 

I'm sure that the insurance company does not want to pay, but the idea of depreciating value just based on age is not always correct. Do you depreciate a 10 year old dollar bill? It may be dirty, or have a rip, but it's only function is to be worth a dollar, and it still is. 

Greg 

p.s. what was wrong with the track you sent back under warranty? Perhaps you harbor some ill feeling towards Aristo? By far most people's experience has been that Aristo has very willingly provided replacement ties when they were defective. Believe me I checked this very thoroughly before I bought several thousands of dollars of track. I may not have great love for some people in Aristo, but they have a good track record here.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Unless, I'm mistaken Andre hasn't responded to any of the subsequent posts after his original post, or to an identical post on the Aristo Forum. We do not know if it is a full replacement policy, or a depreciated value. 

Nancy and I have had three insurance claims over the past 25 years (all different companies): hail in Denver, break in in Arizona, and a basement with 9" of water in Virginia. The first claim in Denver, the train damage was covered along with the house damage (I have no idea, 25 years later what the replacement part of the policy was), The second claim for break in had a full replacement value. The company took our list and gave us a check for depreciated value for the stolen items. When we later replaced the items we wanted replaced, we then were reimbursed for the difference between the depreciated price and the replacement price. Some items like my late father's Zeiss binoculars purchased in a PX in Germany (1950), the depreciated value was the full replacement (we had pictures of him with the binoculars). There were several other items that weren't depreciated either. The present claim, water in the basement, is still in process, we are still documenting the losses.

It all depends upon the company, so far we have been fortunate and the companies have worked with us. We'll see how State Farm handles the present claim, so far so good, but we are still early in the process.

I say that the best way to establish a depreciated value for used track is to monitor EBAY and other sales. That is something you can hang your claim on. 

If you have replacement value new track should be a slam dunk, but if you are giving up on garden railroading, the depreciated value is the best you can hope for. You have to buy it to get the full replacement value.

Chuck

PS: The burglars in Arizona had to step over 6 LGB engines in the process (Croc, Mogul, Forney, Uintah Mallet, 0-6-6-0 and a RhB switcher). They were on the floor next to the window that they used for entry. Sometimes it is nice to have stupid criminals.


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## bstuvland (Aug 31, 2012)

I have had track outside for over ten years, no problems, is floats in gravel.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Aug 2012 06:49 PM 
OK, we are talking about the replacement value of used track to an insurance company. 

They are saying that it's worth less because it old, right? 

So, the rail does not age to be less useful in 10 years right? 

The track does not age to be less useful in 10 years and it is warranted from manufacturing defects. 

So if I have a piece of track that is 10 years old, it's no less useful or operational than a new piece of track, because all it has to do is hold gage and let trains run. 

Sure if there is a nuclear holocaust and it becomes radioactive and martians land and twist it into pretzels that's a different story, as you say. 

But that's NOT what the question is about. 

What it is about is what reason is there to depreciate old track. Since the track will last a lifetime on it's own (because the rail does not disappear, and the only "natural enemies" of the ties are covered by a lifetime warranty, then I see a good argument to get track of equal quality and condition back. 

I'm sure that the insurance company does not want to pay, but the idea of depreciating value just based on age is not always correct. Do you depreciate a 10 year old dollar bill? It may be dirty, or have a rip, but it's only function is to be worth a dollar, and it still is. 

Greg 

p.s. what was wrong with the track you sent back under warranty? Perhaps you harbor some ill feeling towards Aristo? By far most people's experience has been that Aristo has very willingly provided replacement ties when they were defective. Believe me I checked this very thoroughly before I bought several thousands of dollars of track. I may not have great love for some people in Aristo, but they have a good track record here. 


If this was geared toward me, because of the PS, only you are talking about "replacement value" and again you are wrong on so many counts. But I guess that in addition to your engineering and science credentials, you are also a certified insurance appraiser. I'm impressed.









I harbor nothing but good feelings toward AristoCraft. Lewis is a friend of mine and I've done testing for them as well as product development. They have paid me well and provided engines at a reduced rate and even gave me two C-16s at no charge at all.

With respect to the warentee replacement, I had about 2 feet of ties that over time disentegrated like Oreo cookies due to improper UV protection. That's what the warentee covers. They sent replacement ties, both American and European, for about twice the length I put in for. And, yes, I had to document that the ties were crumbling.

You remember... That's when I invented the tool that lets you put the ties on the track without removing it from the ground or disassembling it. I can even put them over the rail joiners. (Invented anything lately?)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

wow, so you have to keep lowering yourself to insults .... sorry you feel so badly about yourself that you have to cut down others. 

I would not count your inventions as earth shattering, and yes I have done things of at least the magnitude of your tools to open couplers and move spikes. Does a patent for a multi-billion dollar company count? Something that even AT&T did not think of... you'll find it if you look.. 

I'd stick to your insults and coupler openers... you seem more fixated on giving me a hard time than helping the op make a case for his insurance company... fine, you don't bother me, but obviously I bother you... who wins that one? not you. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Aug 2012 09:11 PM 
wow, so you have to keep lowering yourself to insults .... 

... who wins that one? not you. 

Greg 

I've not insulted you. Quite the contrary. I said I was impressed. 
You're correct there. When "I wrestle with a pig, I just get dirty and the pig likes it."


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg E: "Believe me I checked this very thoroughly before I bought several thousands of dollars of track. I may not have great love for some people in Aristo, but they have a good track record here." 

Nice pun! LOL! 

But another good point: This can all be avoided by documenting what you own and adding it to your policy, with the values attached. 

First, write down everything you own, second, make a video of it, or photograph individual items. Third, KEEP your sales receipts. If I bought a K27 along with a QSI sound/DCC card at Caboose, I may be able to prove I own the K27, but what about the QSI card - and the programmer. If you own a Berlyn locomotive worth thousands, can you prove it if it's stolen? 

If your adjuster asks you how much track you had, receipts from Aristo-craft goes a LOT further than your "recollection" of your track plan.

Keep Serial numbers from valuables, and you can always engrave your name and address, or your own serial number system into the item. MOST Police departments WILL NOT return stolen property without a serial number or a name or address engraved onto the item. This includes bicycles. And they don't care how many photos you have of your Uintah LGB loco. 

Oh, and fellow train nuts: Don't forget the wife's jewelry. LOL! 

Robert


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## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

Tis a bit late for documentation. They have pics of the track and layout. Documentation is NOT he issue. I have replacement cost policy on the house but not the outside property. They are going to use a depreciation schedule for indoor railroads, ala HO or some such nonsense. Its a 10 year schedule. 

I'll send them a link to this discussion, since AC is not being at all helpful. 

Thanks gents...I'll let you know whether I need KY later. 

Andre`


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I just keep a good supply of Flex Track Ties on hand. 

I then replace as needed. 

I bought a huge layout a few years back. 

It came with a load of " Rails Only" 

I just add Flex Ties and go from there. 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ, the discussion is not about repairing track, it's the value of the track after some years, and what the insurance company will do about the loss. (his is bent up) 

Robert, wife's jewelry? HAH! Sold all of it for trains! what kind of guy do you think I am! hahaha 

Andre, we all hope for the best for you, let us know if and when to send the KY.... it only hurts at first!! ;-) 

Greg


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

That's when I invented the tool that lets you put the ties on the track without removing it from the ground or disassembling it. I can even put them over the rail joiners. 


This sounds fantastic. Do you have some pictures or a link to the original post?


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

You gotten lots of great answers to the question. I recently acquired some 20 plus year old Aristo-craft track from Sedona, Arizona. The rail/spike plates were at least 50% ruined from being in the hot, dry sunlight. I also have LGB track (inside only) that was bought in 1982....no problems. If the rail is still good, you might want to negotiate with your insurance carrier for just the cost of replacement ties ($2-$2.4 per foot). I had recently changed my insurance contract to include replacement costs for my Marklin/LGB collection...then I don't have to haggle. Good luck with the claim.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you apply to Aristo for replacement (warranty) ties? 

Normally all you have to do is take pictures and they will send the ties. 

Greg


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