# USA Overton cars scale appearance?



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Monday, Oct 11, 2010

Hi there:

A good friend of mine does not like the proportions of the USA Overton cars. He does not think that these cars look prototypical nor that they look like the HO Roundhouse Overton cars.

My opinion is the exact opposite. The side windows are tall and narrow as per the Durango & Silverton coach with no body past the end window side edge and the USA Trains cars look to be of the same proportions as the HO Roundhouse Overtons.

Folks, what is your opinion of the scale appearance and proportions of the USA Overton coaches? 

Photos below.

Norman


USA Trains Overton coach:










Roundhouse Overton HO Scale coach:











Durango & Silverton coach windows are tall and narrow, no body past side of windows


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

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Perhaps the problem is the length, at just under 15" length they scale at 35.5' in the real world. This is likely a might short as compared to the D&S coach noted below. If memory serves me the D&S coach below is 50’ long or there about. 
Edit; Overtons are 34' long, pretty close... Lower picture maybe an Overton?


Michael


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm with your friend on this one, Norman. I've never been a big fan of the HO Overton cars anyway, but the USA Trains version looks too much like a caricature. The short car accentuates the tall, narrow windows. I think that kit bashing two cars together to get a prototypical length would give a good looking car, but as-is, it looks toy-like to me.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Well the HO scale ones from Round House are pretty close to the real ones, the Sierra Railway had a coach and combine for the Angels Branch that the Roundhouse Overton's were based on. The Roundhouse baggage and bussiness cars were pure fantasy though. The USA Overtons main problem is that the door is about a 1/2 to 3/4's of an inch to short, the top should extend to about where the screw is that holds the roof on. Here is a photo of the combine and coach from the Sierra Railway ( http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/491/images/shorty_5_wooden_passenger_car.jpg ).

Andre


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Just to confirm 

The USA cars are 1:29 â€" standard gauge 
The Round house HO cars â€" standard gauge 
The prototype cars so far shown are narrow gauge. Not the same


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman,

This is a Fn3 coach, by AMS at 1/20.3, compared with an LGB coach (somewhat similiar to the USA Overton-not exactly). USA Overton's are kind of a goofy scale-maybe 1/29. LGB is supposed to be 1/22.5. So actually the Overton coach is probably SMALLER than the LGB. The AMS coach IS a NARROW GAUGE coach, not standard gauge.










BIG DIFFERENCE!!!


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Michael:

The Durango & Silverton 13 window car looks like the candidate that was used to model the USA Trains 9 window car.

So USA Trains chose to reduce the window count of a narrow gauge coach from 13 to 9 windows. The only error is the too short end doors. The roof ventilation windows are of the correct side profile. The platform is quite high up from the car sides as per the Durango & Silverton 13 window car.


Roundhouse modeled correctly the standard gauge 9 window coach, which was reduced from 12 or 13 to 9 windows, for standard gauge HO.


So USA Trains is correct after all.

Instead of choosing the standard gauge 9 window prototype, they choose to invent a narrow gauge 9 window coach from a narrow gauge coach. Still don't understand the end door low height error though.

Anyway, a standard gauge 9 window coach reduced to 1:24 scale would have been just as good to me. Maybe that is the HLW 7 window coach, reduced from 9 windows!

Isn't anything correct? This definitely isn't the gauge for the HO rivet counter types!

Regardless, I like these USA 9 window cars. Really high quality. I just ignore the low end door height error which is really obvious.


Norman


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Norman, 

I’m not an expert on the prototype or the USA Overton, but here are a few of my rivet counters thoughts. Don’t take them to heart because if it looks good to you that all that counts.









*“The Durango & Silverton 13 window car looks like the candidate that was used to model the USA Trains 9 window car.” 
*
The USA trains model is 1:29 (standard gauge - 4 ft 8 1⁄2) Durango & Silverton is a 3 ft narrow gauge line. Not the same 

_*“So USA Trains is correct after all.”*_ 

Extending one to a prototypical length in 1:29 (standard gauge) would look great, I’m sure I have heard of someone doing it. My guess is USA trains produced this ‘shorty’ to get around tight curves to compete with other brands. 

_*“Still don't understand the end door low height error though”*_ 
I think this has something to do with the scale. So if the car is 1:29, will a 1:29 person fit through the door? 

*“Anyway, a standard gauge 9 window coach reduced to 1:24 scale would have been just as good to me. Maybe that is the HLW 7 window coach, reduced from 9 windows!” 
*
The HLW coach is 1:24 and based on a narrow gauge prototype, how accurately I’m not sure. A standard gauge passenger car in 1:24 will be wider and longer (prototype dependant) than the HLW. 

A rivet counter can be happy in G gauge, I am, and happy in Fn3


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The HLW coach was originally the Delton "shorty" coach. They were made to sell to people who already had the Lionel 0-6-0 and wanted some passenger cars to go with it. I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Classic Toy Trains) that Delton also had helped make the dies for some of the Lionel Large Scale stock. This may not be correct, but it would make sense. Anyway, those early Lionel sets came with the tight radius track, and the Delton coaches were intended as an add on that could also negotiate those tight curves.

Hope this helps,
David Meashey


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman, 
I really like the USA Overton cars. However, I agree the end doors are way off (look more like a dog house door).


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Guys,

Let me repeat my self, these cars are based on the Sierra Railway Coach #6 and Combine #5. These cars were built in the early 1900's for the Angel's branch of the Sierra Railway. The curves on the branch were so tight that the Sierra could not get a regular combine around them so the solution was to make the combine in to two cars. Model Diecasting / Roundhouse based their Coach and Combine Overtons on these two cars they then took the basic body and the rest of the car and came up with the baggage and business cars. So the Coach and Combine are real and the baggage and business cars are fantasy's.


The problems with the USA cars is twofold, first the door is way to short, it needs to extend to where the screw that holds the roof on. Second is that on the end of the car away from the restroom there should be two windows, one on either side of the door. Now as to scale I always thought that these cars were built to 1/24 scale and if you measure them they come out fairly close. So my conclusion is that these are not shortened 11 or 13 window cars but an attempt to model the Sierra Cars.

Andre


how do I add a photo, I went to the FAQ and followed the instructions and nothing.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Andre,

Perhaps this is the picture you wanted to upload...

These are the original shorty coaches built for Sierra Railways Angels Branch, as you noted above. I found several references that confirm your assertions...


Two special "shorty" passenger cars were built especially for the Angels Branch in 1902 by the Holman Car Company of San Francisco. These unique cars, combination coach-baggage No. 5 and coach No. 6, have seen many years of varied service on the Sierra. Both have been used in countless movies and remain on display today at Railtown 1897 State Historic Park. 











Michael


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Are these standard or narrow gauge prototypes?


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Michael,

Yes that was the photo I was trying to post.

They are standard gauge.

Andre


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

OK, The TWO purpose built original 34' Sierra coaches and or Overton's (where did “Overton's” come into play?) were special and did not see service on other lines. Less the movies and such... We have several coaches available from various LS manufacturers that seem to be characterized or depicting mythical coaches of yesteryear. I have wood-sided Accucraft, Aristocraft, Bachman, Delton (Long), LGB and USA coaches. Less the Accucraft and Sierra USAT coaches none seem to emulate at least in length an original scale coach. LGB-Bachmann-Delton’s are nearly identical in body size @ 18”L x 4”W give or take a 1/8”-3/8”. At 1/29 scale 18”=43.5’ long; 4”=9.66’ wide. Were there any 43’ or so coaches in the real world? Deltons shorty coach is 12" long @ 1:24 it scales to 24' long???? While the Delton long coach scales to 36'??? 
All of the aforementioned dimensions are less the couplers!

Michael


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, (to really wreck this thread) 

I have (had, this was middle school age?) a MDC Overton combine sitting on Kemtron H0n3 trucks.....it actually did not look to bad behind a Kemtron 2-6-0 (itself a 4mm to the foot model)....


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Oct 13, 2010 

Hi all: 

Roundhouse has a "Canadian Pacific" Sierra HO scale 4 car set in maroon. Total fiction, but these cars really look nice. 

Scot Lawrence, your photoshop 13 window USA Overton looks great! I think it has a real low slung narrow guage look to it. The side proportions look fine to me. 
I forwarded your photoshop image to Charles Ro with a comment about the short end doors. Who knows what might happen? 

Andre, the standard gauge Virginia & Truckee Railroad had one armoured baggage car, with single side baggage door, of the same appearance as the Sierra sorty coach of probably the same length as the Sierra shorty car. Very heavy armoured baggage car built to haul bullion. 

One point to note is that these prototype western railroads should have built several examples of these 34 foot cars for us, the future generation of train modellors! 

I doubt that any of these 1800's railroad workers could ever have foreseen a future generation absolutely fascinated with the beauty of steam locomotive design and the elaborate paint work gracing their rolling stock and locomotives. 

Kind of neat when you sit back and think about it. 


Norman


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 12 Oct 2010 08:46 PM 
Well, (to really wreck this thread) 

I have (had, this was middle school age?) a MDC Overton combine sitting on Kemtron H0n3 trucks.....it actually did not look to bad behind a Kemtron 2-6-0 (itself a 4mm to the foot model).... 

Sorry, Kidder 2-6-0, not Kemtron, too much Sushi and Sapporo before posting....


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

You never can have to much Sapporo









Andre


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

If you can accept the notion that the USA Overton cars are not replicas of anything, then their narrow gauge trucks are kind of charming. However, they are not exactly Sierra Cars. However, there was a company in the 1960's ( according to a back issue of Model Railroader) that sold HO Sierra cars. Kemtron perhaps? They had larger trucks and a slightly bigger roof. I don't know the manufacturer.

cheers


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Why are Durango & Silverton cars being used for comparison purposes to the USA Overtons? 


Overton, as mentioned, is a label given by MDC/Roundhouse to their HO cars based on Sierra Railroad's shortys. Nothing even close to the D&RGW (now D&S) coaches. Why it is possible a D&S coach could have been an inspiration for the USA model, I just don't see it.


On the other hand, the LGB coach is a very good model of the typical D&RGW coach, although it is greatly shortened. 


Modeler Barry Bogs has scratch built real 1:22.5 scale D&RGW coaches. If you haven't already, definitely visit his website:


Colorado & Western 



This picture of Barry's true scale 1:22.5 baggage car next to the same 1:22.5 scale but shortened LGB baggage car always blows me away. And no that scratch built model is not 1:20.3


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Ulrich made them in HO


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