# Scales



## VentureForth (Dec 10, 2013)

OK - I DO understand the concept of scale vs gauge. But in my short journey into this hobby, I've seen so much discrepancy that I'm legitimately confused.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

My Bachmann Big Haulers 4-6-0 seems to be 1:22.5 - Narrow gauge steam. Thing is big. Were the Baldwins that these were modeled after actually narrow gauge in real life, or did Bachmann want to just make something big?

Then, I got a Lionel Polar Express. It looks to be around 1:32, though I can't find anywhere online that confirms this. It's roughly a 1/3 smaller than the Big Hauler.

Then, I'm looking about online and at trade shows, and here's where I'm really confounded - LGB continues to manufacture 1:22.5, even though much of the American stock they manufacture is NOT narrow gauge but rather standard gauge.

Does anyone make Amtrak in 1:29 or 1:32?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The Bachmann 4-6-0 is a pretty close model of the Tweetsie RR 4-6-0 which was originally from the ET&WNC and is 1:22.5 or thereabouts. It is a 3ft narrow gauge locomotive.
For 45mm 'Large scale' model rails it should be bigger in 1:20.32 or as it is also known as 'F' scale, Fifteen mm to the inch.
The scale of 1:22.5 was originally used by Bachmann because it was the same scale as LGB, correct for 1 meter gauge in Europe. Other manufacturers at the time used a more traditional scale of 1:24 but both these scales are incorrect for 3ft narrow gauge which is why 'F' scale came about. F scale can be a bit daunting for indoor railroads. A true to scale Accucraft 3ft gauge coach is humungous!


True standard gauge on 45mm model rails is 1:32 but most people who model standard gauge use 1:29 which was initiated by Aristocraft. The WOW! factor of models being bigger than they really should be. MTH chose the correct scale of 1:32 but not so popular. There are contentious scale issues in 'Large scale' but at least we can all run on the same track. (most of the time).
I'm sure others will pipe in, time to duck!









LGB 22490 Amtrak Genesis Acela











Andrew


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

My Bachmann Big Haulers 4-6-0 seems to be 1:22.5 - Narrow gauge steam. - yes.
Thing is big. - yes
Was the Baldwin that this was modeled after actually narrow gauge in real life? - yes
or did Bachmann want to just make something big? not really relevant. Its simply a 1/22.5 scale model of a real 3-foot gauge 4-6-0 (Tweetsie #12)

Then, I got a Lionel Polar Express. It looks to be around 1:32, - eh..I wouldn't count on that, its probably not to any specific scale.
and its not a scale model of any specific real locomotive..its a "stylized toy train"..it cant have a true scale, because it has no real prototype.
although if you had to pick the "closest scale" for it, 1/32 would probably work..
though I can't find anywhere online that confirms this. and you probably never will! 
It's roughly a 1/3 smaller than the Big Hauler. - as it should be..1/32 scale models overall will be significantly smaller than 1/22.5 scale models.
1/32 is smaller models of larger prototypes. 

Then, I'm looking about online and at trade shows, and here's where I'm really confounded - LGB continues to manufacture 1:22.5, - yes.
even though some of the American stock they manufacture is NOT narrow gauge but rather standard gauge. - yes.

Does anyone make Amtrak in 1:29 or 1:32? LGB makes trains in 1/22.5 scale *and* 1/29 scale..Some of their standard gauge trains are in 1/22.5 scale, and others are in 1/29 scale.
They do make the Amtrak Genesis locomotive in 1/29 scale..as far as I know, the Amtrak Genesis is LGB's first, and so far only, 1/29 scale locomotive. there will probably be more in the future..

Scot


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

To help confuse people, the frt cars available from the various manufacturers can all be seen at times mixed with each other on a layout. Only the 1:20.3 rolling stock looks really really out of place. The 1:22nd and 1:24th scale narrow gauge reefers and box cars are often used along with 1:29th scale locos and other 1:29th frt cars. All you have to do is to look at photos of freight yards from the 40s - 60s and you'll see they came in all kinds of heights and lengths. For 1:32nd scale, the real difference is the width. The length of the 1:32nd scale cars will be slightly shorter but unless you are a stickler on originality, they can be close enough. Even within manufacturers own lines, you'll find scale problems. Aristo Crafts offset Copula long steel caboose, sold as 1:29th scale is most likely 1:22nd scale at best. All this makes it extremely hard to buy stuff over the internet without ever actually seeing the item first.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

This may be a good read in relation to the origins of 1:24 in Large Scale: The Phil Jensen Story Delton To Hartland – Life as a Product Designer 
LGB went the other way too. The LGB Porter saddle tank is near 1:20 scale.










Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB models of American and Canadian standard gauge freight cars are closer to 1:29. They match the USAt, AristoCraft, and Accucraft 1:29 models in size and shape.

LGB narrow gauge freight cars (American, not European) are closer to 1:24.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Randy, I think the U.S. 1:24 cars look good behind a 1:29 locomotive etc. although not correct. The AristCraft Classic series (Delton) are a bit smaller than Bachmann 1:22.5 cars but as you said the cars varied anyway. 
I think they were trying to make the various models at a glance all look much the same height in relation to each other. Much like LGB's philosophy. The LGB Stainz is actually a small 760mm gauge Austrian locomotive so more like 1:18 than 1:22.5 and that is what the company started with. 
The AristoCraft Rogers (Delton) is a small standard gauge prototype but quite large lending itself to more of a narrow gauge scale (cab door is 88mm high). 
True, 1:20.32 scale models do look right out of place with the rest, although 1:22.5/1:24 flatcar, boxcar and Delton hopper will pass for early era prototypes in 1:20.3 and a Bachmann 4-6-0 Annie can be up-scaled with larger cab and stack to fit in better with F scale. 

Andrew


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the major considerations and causes for the creation of 1/29 scale was so that 
1/29 scale standard gauge freight cars would physically match, in size, to existing LGB 1/22.5 scale cars. 
At the time, the Large Scale hobby in the USA was nearly all LGB. 

1/32 scale cars would have been noticeably small, in relation to LGB. people who 
already had LGB might not want 1/32 scale cars, because they wouldnt "match" what they already owned..
So 1/29 was created so that people who already had LGB (which was "everybody") 
could buy the new 1/29 cars and have them match the LGB cars they already had.. 

The "wow factor" reason that Lewis Polk talked about is most often remembered..and sure, that's a factor too. 
but the even more important reason for 1/29 was this physical size match to LGB. 
It was a business decision..and a smart one. 

Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot:


Maybe it is time for your excellent illustration.

Chuck


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## HaBi Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

The only scale I don't like to see is where one of my cars is lying on its side or being dragged along with its wheels off of the track. Even I can see (or hear) that from 10 feet away. 

the other Rodney


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The other Rodney... 

Like on a ship.. 
Pull the anchor up...first!! 

I read yours & had a good laugh! Thx 

Dirk. .....the only Dirk!!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 01 Feb 2014 07:28 PM 
Scot:


Maybe it is time for your excellent illustration.

Chuck

Thanks Chuck! 










Scot


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Amtrak: 
LGB made:
the P42 Genesis, 1/29 
Budd Metroliner car, 1/29 

Piko makes an Amtrak version of its Electric Locomotive 1/29 

Aristo made the FA-1 in Amtrak livery and its streamline cars as well. 1/29 

USA has a GP in Amtrak and I think passanger cars to match. 1/29 

MTH in not sure, 1/32 

an older company Great Trains made the best offerings, the F-40, a line of Superliner cars and smoothside cars all in Amtrak colors, 1/32 though


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Scot, you can improve the scale chart even more, like last time.
I know, I am now being annoying.









Gauge One.
1/32 Scale.
Correct for
standard gauge 
on 1.75" track (44.45mm) 


7/8n2 scale.
1/13.7 Scale.
Correct for 
2-foot gauge 
on 1.75" track (44.45mm) 


Andrew


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

More scale info:

LGB was 1/22.5, but final designs were modified for looks, thus some measurements need a rubber band ruler.
MDC was 1/32 and the molds I believe were obtained by Piko.
Lionel was 1/32
Aristo Classic rolling stock is 1/24 (C16) rest is 1/29
USA Trains MOW is 1/24 rest is 1/29


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 02 Feb 2014 04:30 AM 
More scale info:

I'd like to add to Dan's comments from my experience.

LGB was 1/22.5, but final designs were modified for looks, thus some measurements need a rubber band ruler.

If we make the assumption that the D&RGW narrow gauge freight cars are 30', those cars as LGB scale out to 1:24. They have the same length as Delton, Bachman (big Haulers), and USA wood sided cars. 

There are aspects of the LGB standard gauge cars that suggest the rubber band ruler (especially the streamlined passenger cars), but the freight cars, length wise, they match up well with similar USAt and Aristo cars that are listed as 1:29.


MDC was 1/32 and the molds I believe were obtained by Piko.
Lionel was 1/32
Aristo Classic rolling stock is 1/24 (C16) rest is 1/29
USA Trains MOW is 1/24 rest is 1/29

All USA wood sided cars are 1:24, not just the MOW. Their length scales out at very close to 1:32 if you assume the starting car was 40'. They are a little wider and higher for that scale when compared to a similar MTH car.

Chuck


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## VentureForth (Dec 10, 2013)

Fascinating stuff. And I, again, understand the scales and gauges, but Scott's diagram is certainly neato. I swear, though, the Amtrak P42s that I've seen at shows seem much larger than my 1:22.5 Big Hauler. Quick side note... I am loving the Big Hauler. It's a cheapo, but it's big AND it works great on 4' diameter curves and even S-turns. 

The discrepancies in scales on a common gauge certainly make creativity difficult and require more than your average planning. 

Interestingly, in Scott's illustrations, the 1:29 looks like to be the same height as the 1:22.5.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By VentureForth on 02 Feb 2014 07:03 PM 


Interestingly, in Scott's illustrations, the 1:29 looks like to be the same height as the 1:22.5. 


Thats exactly the point! 
as I said further up in this thread:

Posted By Scottychaos on 01 Feb 2014 07:25 PM 
One of the major considerations and causes for the creation of 1/29 scale was so that 
1/29 scale standard gauge freight cars would physically match, in size, to existing LGB 1/22.5 scale cars. 
At the time, the Large Scale hobby in the USA was nearly all LGB. 

1/32 scale cars would have been noticeably small, in relation to LGB. people who 
already had LGB might not want 1/32 scale cars, because they wouldnt "match" what they already owned..
So 1/29 was created so that people who already had LGB (which was "everybody") 
could buy the new 1/29 cars and have them match the LGB cars they already had.. 

The "wow factor" reason that Lewis Polk talked about is most often remembered..and sure, that's a factor too. 
but the even more important reason for 1/29 was this physical size match to LGB. 
It was a business decision..and a smart one. 

Scot 

1/29 and 1/22.5 are supposed to match..that's the primary reason 1/29 was created in the first place..
Scot


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## VentureForth (Dec 10, 2013)

Oops! I was so mesmerized by the responses, I missed that part!


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