# Fuel Safety



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

I have seen several comments where the author, in various ways, states that gas firing is much safer than alcohol firing. 

For the life of me I do not understand why. 

Yes, I have seen accidental alcohol fires; I have also seen accidental gas fires. 

The alcohol fires at worst result in a little scorched paint and a melted tie or two. 

Several of the gas fires have resulted in serious damage to engines and models. In all cases the gas fires were more spectacular. 

All of the alcohol fires could have been prevented by safe practices by the operator. This is not true for all of the gas fires I have seen. 

Personally, I use the three main types of fuel; coal, gas, and alcohol and believe all to be safe as long as the operator pays attention to the business at hand --- and live steam being the type of hobby it is --- the operators really should be paying attention to the business at hand. 

What are the reasons for the thought that alcohol is not as safe as gas? 

Do new operators seek training and oversight when using a new type of fuel?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 06/03/2008 9:40 AM 
I have seen several comments where the author, in various ways, states that gas firing is much safer than alcohol firing. 

Personally, I use the three main types of fuel; coal, gas, and alcohol and believe all to be safe as long as the operator pays attention to the business at hand --- and live steam being the type of hobby it is --- the operators really should be paying attention to the business at hand. 


Do new operators seek training and oversight when using a new type of fuel? 






Dave 
I agree with your general premise about operators responsibility, attention to task at hand and safety first. 

Alcohol- (denote this due to severity of incidents)I know of two spectacular fires that would not have happened with butane. One burnt engine and trailing coaches and the other burnt the owner requiring medical attention. 

It is not a point of comparison, all three fuels have safety issues that can be kept up control with proper running equipment and operating procedures.


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree that both fuels are of equal safety when you watch what you are doing. The only thing that I would add to that is you are more likely to have a small spill fire with alcohol then with gas. (hard stops, derailments, etc.) Large fires are about the same in probability if you take the time for proper safety practices./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I also dissagree with the assessment that alcohol is more dangerous than butane gas. 

I have had four "MAJOR" accidents with one of my alcohol fired Mikes. Two of them are viewable on YouTube. 

Three resulted in a very small white puff of vapor that was nearly invisible. There has been no "conflagration" or damage to anything DUE TO THE FIRE! (There was damage to the locomotive due to the "Terrifying Fall" from the 3 ft high track, but no burning of anything due to the alcohol burning.) 

The way the "chicken feeder" fuel system works, the amount of alcohol available to burn is very small and it vaporizes in a quick flash and is gone if/when the engine tips over. 

I suppose if I were to spill the alcohol on the track (which I HAVE) and not take precautions (like I did, i.e.: moved the engine away from the spill and watered down the spot) then there could be (have been) a problem. But since my common sense was in gear at the time I had no problem at all. I do keep a CO2 fire extinguisher close by and of course have the gallon jug of water at hand too. 

If I were to rate the "danger factor", based on personal experience, I think that butane is just slightly more dangerous than alcohol, but just barely... mainly because the spectacular flash flame makes it appear to be more dangerous /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif. 

I am not saying that you could not get the same type of blame as Mrs. O'Leary's cow with either type of fuel, but if you are paying attention and understand the dangers of playing with fire, either type of fuel is safe.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

The ideas behind the reasoning is the following: with a derailment and the engine turns on its side or turns over the alcohol will spill through the wick tubes and ignite. In case of gas the liquid gas will come into the burner and kill the flame. I have not yet witnessed that and like you I don't believe in this. 

So far I have witnessed 3 serious gas accidents: 
- ignition during filling burned the hair from my arm. 
- a silicone tube connecting the burner broke with a very large flame as result running around the layout during an exhibition 
- a leaking gas line engilfed the engine in flames 

The only problem I see with alcohol is that pure alcohol flames are almost colourless in bright daylight. The danger of lighting a spill is as great as with gas.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone got the marshmallows....


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The biggest danger with alcohol comes from spillage, either from a tipover, or alcohol (for whatever reason) overflowing the edges of the wicks or out of the overflow tube and dribbling onto the track starting a fire. As has been stated above, "chicken feed" type alcohol burners are less prone to this due simply to the smaller amount of alcohol to spill. (That doesn't mean they can't start fires.) The danger there isn't so much the damage from the alcohol flame itself, but that the fuel--being liquid--spreads to other combustibles such as ties, trestles, dry plant materials, etc. I've seen small portions of railroads go up in smoke a minute or so _after_ the train passes because a small dribble of burning fuel leaked from the wicks down to something burnable on the track, smoldered for a bit, then took off. (Not unlike cinders from a coal-fired steamer.) Butane doesn't have that problem. Neither fuels are any more or less safe than the other in my opinion, but the invisible and delayed nature of alcohol fires causes me to be just a bit more vigilant when running them. 

Later, 

K


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles: OH YEAH! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif" border=0> 

Well how's this! 

(Digital cameras tend to exagerate the flame.)


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The FUEL is not the problem the OPERATOR is !! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

All my locos used to be alcohol fired. Eventually I converted them to gas, as I caused some (small) fires in dry California due to derailments. In my opinion alcohol is less sensitive to operator error while butane is safer during derailments. 
Regards


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## dwegmull (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By HMeinhold on 06/03/2008 1:53 PM 
All my locos used to be alcohol fired. Eventually I converted them to gas, as I caused some (small) fires in dry California due to derailments.

Hum, Really? I do remember a certain alcoholic Mamod still in existence/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>" border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif" border=0> 


Seriously I agree with Henner's take on butane versus alcohol: I have the charred wooden locomotive to prove it!


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06/03/2008 1:40 PM
Charles: OH YEAH! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif" 
Well how's this! 
(Digital cameras tend to exagerate the flame.) 




I'd say that fella's got some pretty good reaction time!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The fella with the camera had the good reaction time!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Fuel safety- one aspect touched on is fueling safety...the amount of fuel that leaks and accumulate around the tender and engine is a danger point and a good procedure is to move the engine away from the fueling area. Of course this could be a by gone thought given the prices of gas going up.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

On large engines, butane can cause real problems. The Big Boy has three large butane burners. When you lite up, you want to have plenty of the burner nozzles sticking out the back of the fire box because butane can fill it very fast. Not paying enough attention, I left the burners way to far "in" and the the butane going way to long before I lit her off. Luckily, I had not latched the front smoke box door shut. I was amazed at the sound of the trapped butane touching off in the smoke box, shooting through the flues, and poping the door open. I wonder how far the flames shot out the front of the engine...........if it had been later in the day, we would have seen. If the front door had been latched, I think that I would have done some serious damage to the engine. I now always leave it unlatched as a safety measure..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif Caleb had warned me about this, and it also warns you in the engine manual. It's just proof that you can't be to carefull around any of these engines no matter what the fuel.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"popping the door open...." 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dklKse28BV4


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Thought the danger with meth (vs butane) was you could not see meth's flames, particularly on a sunny day. Not seeing the flames has always been talked about as the chief danger.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You cannot see a butane "jet" flame in bright sunlight either.


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## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Using my hobby to control the accelerated old age hair growth on my hands and eye brows sure beats some of the alternatives. 

Tom Burns


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom 
Hmmm...that being the case I now know the loss of hair has nothing to do with heredity.


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

If you have Hair on the back of your hands you are not running enough, if you are losing your eyebrows you are too close to your hobby (beg borrow buy or steal a dental mirror). I prefer to use butane as all my steam so far is in boats ( I am thinking about doing a Logging engine, Midwest type). Meths is very hard to detect when spilled in a hull and flows everywhere. 
Regards, 
Gerald


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Forget the "safety" issues with alcohol and butane....watch out for coal- 
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. â€" Coal dust sparked an invisible fire that heated the soil to 800 degrees and burned the feet of an 8-year-old boy, firefighters said. 

Gerald 
We run most of our steam boats on meths with our Saito setups with no problems. The vaporizing burners work well on the waves! 
The Delta Queen is alcohol fired (the fuel tank is removable to help prevent spoilage during preparation): 









The torpedo boat is the only butane fire boat.


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## fkrutzke (Jan 24, 2008)

When talking fuel safety and alcohol, one must ALWAYS have their alcohol containers clearly marked as such. Most alcohol users keep containers of water strategically placed around the track to put out a fire from an alcohol leak. 

It has happened in the past that a steamer has grabbed the alcohol container, thinking it was water, and dumped it on the burning ties, etc. with disasterous results. 

The caveat is to use an alcohol container that can in no way be confused with any containers that might contain water, weather water for an occasional fire or a boiler refill. 

Torry


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Torry 
We have utilized this bottle w/valve control and one that a rubber hose can be attached (if so desired). Availabe at various sporting goods/camping stories and on the web: 
Trangia Fuel bottles- 
http://www.gearworld.com/trangia-trangia-fuel-bottles-3483p.html


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

My son, when he was a teenager, came up with the following... 

As a man grows older the roots of his hair grow deeper into the scalp. If, when deep enough, it finds gray matter, it turns gray, but if it finds nothing at all it dies and falls out. 

The irony of this is that he now has a receeding hair line... draw your own conclusions.


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is what we use at MSSLS.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif My son is a slow learner. We have a model steam boat, which is butane fired. Twice my son allowed the build up of the heavier than air butane gas to build up in the hull. Therefore; twice we had rather spectacular fires in the steamboat. She did not burn to the water line,/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif but the windows in the pilot house have a strange color and bulge a bit and some of the wood superstructure is charred./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

You cannot see a butane "jet" flame in bright sunlight either.


But you will hear it


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

We were was trying to determine if a dual jet burner had a clogged jet, so we pulled the Y pipe and jets from the back of the boiler and, holding the pipe with pliers, we opened the valve and lit the end. At first we thought both had clogged or we didn't have the valve open enough. I ALMOST put my hand in the flame, but saw some heat distortion in the air about 6 inches above the jets, so we put a leaf there instead and it immediately caught fire. The only noise was a very slight hissing sound and I think that was coming mainly from the valve area in the tender.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

That's a smart way to test for a blocked jet.... not heard of that one before.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

What would Sacramento be without a small gas explosion ?


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Havoc on 06/05/2008 1:53 PM 
You cannot see a butane "jet" flame in bright sunlight either.

But you will hear it " border=0>" border=0>

I might hear it if I have my hearing aid in and turned on. I have resorted to draping a shop cloth over the boiler to block the sunlight so I could see if the flame was right. 
Charles Your boats look great! I have never used a Saito setups with vaporizing burners, the only ones I have used have been wick types. 
Regards, 
Gerald


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