# Question about Accucraft 4-4-0



## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I finally got to run my Colonel Boone for the first time a couple of weeks ago. However, I made some mistakes and now need to try to repair something. 

My mistakes were: first I set it out for people to admire. The venue was in the sun with the temperatures in the upper 80s (Fahrenheit) so the loco got well warmed up. Second I tried to fire it as I do my Class 60 (early C-16) which was not the best idea. Anyhow, I got the fire too hot and the engine was running away at the end of the first loop. Caught it and turned down the throttle a bit and it seemed to run fine. 

Now the problem. During the third loop the stack just fell apart. Every solder joint parted so I got three pieces: the diamond top, a ring, and the stack itself. I think I might have a way to repair it but I need some information. Does anybody know the melting point of the solder, or what the mixture is so I can look it up? Any help would be appreciated.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Call Cliff at Accucratf. Some of the stacks were soft soldered. He will send a replacement. 
Noel


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I appologize, but I just have to laugh. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif I have one of the 4-4-0's also. Mine seemed to run fine the first time out. However, ever since I have had a hard time keeping up steam without turning up the burner. It flutters and goes out. Then running one day in my garden ry the stack just fell off. There had been a long accromious discussion about these engines and Accucraft in general early on so when mine fell off I just broke out laughing about it. It parted where the baloon joins the straight piece. I fixed this and then running it a few days later the stack fell off again, this time at the base. I just pressed it back on and continued to try and get the thing to produce enough steam by messing with the burner, installing a Hottman type sleeve, wrapping the burner in mesh, etc. It always overheated. Then the other day the number plate on the smoke box fell off. Cliff is on vacation they tell me at Accucraft so I am going to call him next week and see what can be done. A friend of mine here in Houston has one of these also. His runs and burns great, but his stack fell off too. We think the problem with mine is the burner nozzle. It either was drilled the wrong size or has a burr or some irregularity in it preventing it from burning properly. We tried substituting nozzles and that seemed to indicate the problem. Like the post above says, contact Cliff at Accucraft and he will send you a new stack. They know about the problem and are making replacement parts right now. They are also making replacement crosshead guide pins and rods if you have a problem with those, which I don't so far. I don't know about the number plate or burner nozzle. Because of the rash of stacks failing, I tend to think the problem is really the burner jet or nozzle. The hole in it is just too large or the burner itself is designed wrong even though it looks just like any other Accucraft burner. In order to generate enough steam you end up with a blow torch effect going up the stack. I have never experience this problem with any other Accucraft engine so I am at a loss to explain it or fix it.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

My 4-4-0 unsoldered and shed its numberplate while running this afternoon. No flame in the firebox either--I checked! Will try some JB Weld to refasten it. 
The smokestack has a joint that looks like it has melted at some time, but the stack is still in one piece. A replacement is on order from Cliff. 
This engine is still a sweet runner, even if it does have a habit of coming unglued at times. 

Larry


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Make that "no flame in the smokebox", not firebox. Also I had the burner at a low to moderate setting to run at about 30 psi. 

Larry


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## Don Howard (Jan 2, 2008)

Photo evidence of Larry's missing number plate.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I installed a 2nd layer of insulation on the smokebox door . 1/8" thick ceramic insulation that I use on all my locos. 8 - 10 or so 30 mins runs and no parts failing yet.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Jason, how did you affix the ceramic disc ( or whatever) to the smokebox door? It's a great idea. 

cheers


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## Ron67 (Jan 14, 2008)

Wish Aster made the 4-4-0, then I would buy one. Every time I event think that I might one day buy an Accucraft, I read posts like the ones above and snap back to my senses. I love my Aster S2!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the numberplate stud on mine sticks out almost a 1/4" I just pushed it onto that and it has been there for a few months. usually a smea or jbweld though will hold it on, like my K28 smokebox door But with this one if you need to get the numberplate back on you need to remove the studded plate holder which holds the OEM layer of insulataion and brass shield.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron, but look at all the posting opportunities you are missing by not running Accucraft. And you get to know Cliff quite well. And your mechanical skills get sharpened, also. 

Just kidding--not trying to rekindle the Aster/everybody else flame. 

Jason, did you get the ceramic material from Mc-Master-Carr? Have you found JB Weld takes smokebox temps? 

Larry


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## insanerocketkid (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry, 

JBWeld can handle high temps... I have used it on applications where high powered rocket motors are involved (far hotter than your steam engine will ever get!). It is also machinable -- not that I suggest taking JB weld and making a big block out of it, then machining a set of drivers out of it... But you get the idea... 

Mike


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ron67 on 09/05/2008 5:05 AM
Wish Aster made the 4-4-0, then I would buy one. Every time I event think that I might one day buy an Accucraft, I read posts like the ones above and snap back to my senses. I love my Aster S2!




Actually Aster made a 4-4-0, the Reno. It has two speeds, 0 and 150mph. In other words the throttle is really an on/off switch. These Accucraft engines actually run well. I have no idea why the Chinese chose to use low temp solder on the front end pieces. It is just one of the querks of dealing with China. I am sure Accucraft people are just as frustrated as we are. Aster makes some subperb locomotives but if they made a 4-4-0 today the price would be double or triple the Accucraft price and there is no guarantee it would not come with some kind of problem. Aster has had their disasters also. So we just deal with what we got. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Actually these 4-4-0s are the nicest running Accucraft. I ahd one pulling a max load last weekend.[just slipping during start off] and the water usage was surprisingly low. testament to the good vave events.. but the stacks can come apart[the NCNG Mogul does it as well] after 2 episodes on a mogul I changed the jet /burner so the owner couldnt damage it a 3rd time..most of these locos are overfired and can usefully take alower BTU jet..a little slower to boil but after that run just the same.


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## Ron67 (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, in spite of the mentioned problems, it sure is a beautiful engine.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Gordon I also think that the jets are too large. I have Ruby jets in my K28 and it runs better and still lower valve setting. I plan to make some nwe burners somilar to the 1/4" dia ones you make and see if it works better. i want to do that so my radiant burner tent and screens are not so dam huge. Did you do anything special for the replacement burner on the 4-4-0?


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ron67 on 09/05/2008 5:51 PM
Well, in spite of the mentioned problems, it sure is a beautiful engine.




Where did you guys get the smaller jets. I believe that is what I need also. Thanks.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

John - Cliff sells the replacement Ruby jets. Accucraft has 2 jet sizes small and large. If you make a new jet holder you can use any jet and would be able to really fine tune the burner.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 09/06/2008 6:18 AM
John - Cliff sells the replacement Ruby jets. Accucraft has 2 jet sizes small and large. If you make a new jet holder you can use any jet and would be able to really fine tune the burner.




Thanks Jason


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys. Cliff was on vacation last week and this week is the narrow gauge convention. I had heard they were making replacement stacks, but no idea when they would be available. Since I wanted the loco running by the end of October, I just thought I would try to get the stack back together and see about keeping some of the heat away from it. 

John, I am pleased to have given you a chuckle  . However, even if Aster made one I would not be able to afford it and thus would not be able to participate. Besides, it is fun to figure things out and see if your ideas work. 

Jason, I agree the flame is much too hot. This is the only one I have that has this trouble (I have a Ruby, C-16, 3 cylinder shay, and a C-19). I have never had a problem with the first three, and have not had a chance to run the C-19. But nobody has complained about their stacks falling apart. 

Thanks guys


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## Tim Hytrek (Jan 2, 2008)

My numberplate also unsoldered itself. Daniel Boon e #101


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Before I start this post..please be aware that I am NOT bashing Accucraft.. merel;y trying to assist some owners with minor running fixes, ok.. 

Jason, 

[1] The 4-4-0 burners can over fire them..to check if this is the case.. open the smokebox door with the engine fired if a lambent 
flame is coming out of the smokebox..you may damage the stack and number plate.. 

[2] Look up the flue with the burner going you may see that the flame on the bunrer is "Split" by the steam pipe which runs through the flue , this spoils the combustion process of the burner as its disturbs the flame front formation , this in turn lowers the heat output and to compensate drivers tend to open the gas valve higher..which makes the Flame in the smokebox problem worse.. 

The Fix: remove the burner, remove the steam pipe whcih runs through the flue..bend the steam pipe so thst it lies parrallel to the burner , but off to the side of the flue.. you want it hard up against the flue wall and clear of the slots in the burner, 

reinmstall the steam pipe.. get a piece of 40 or 50 mesh S/Steel gauze and roll up asingle layer tube of the gauze which will insert into the burner tube[ this is best done by rolling it round abrass rod about 3/16" diameter tightly .. slide it into the burner so that it covers the slots all the way to the end ..work it out to sit snugly inside .. 
now replace the burner [ checking ther gas jet first.. some have the tiny gas hole the right size but drilled off centre, this will affect the flame /mixture adversely ] if its like this replace it the jet must provide a conical gas steam expanding concentrically inside the burner.not canted of the one side.. 

Light up and look up from the front end again , you should see a low even . blue flame sitting on the burner all along its lenghtwith the steam pipe clear of the flame completely. if you still have a flame out of the smokebox.. install the smaller jet form Accucraft..it is also worth while putting ceramic sheet for heat barrier inside the smokebox door . to protect the number plate.more


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps, I have a question regarding the 4-4-0 gas pipe or any of the Acc loco with tender gas tanks....what exactly can happen if you're loco derails in part, or loses its tender while running and the hose drops out of the boiler end? The gas is still on...should the tender uncouple for any reason, does this cause a fire ball in the cab, or does the flame simply go out? 

David.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 
As soon as the gas Jet on the end of the flexi pipe comes out of the burner the fire goes out. I have seen it happen a few times on "bumpy" track where the tender coupling pin pops out of the engine link. I fitted little R clips through the pin to prevent this unwanted uncoupling.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

David, Good question! Never thought about that. 
Now, who is brave enough to experiment and let the rest of us know???? 

My numberplate, now reattached with JB Weld, survived yesterday's running, and the ceramic cloth for insulating the smokebox door just arrived from MM_C. 

Larry


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod 
True but when our K4 hose split the gas was to be sprayed and gas vapors cause a fire in the cab when a alcohol fired engine came by.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Incidentally, I melted the front number plate off my original black mogul a couple of years back, when I tried to fire the engine and the jet had become blocked with that white sealant gunk, a green flame and much heat in the smokebox. The front plate melted off pretty quickly! I unscrewed the plate mount from the smokebox and soldered the plate back onto it with a regular soldering iron. Never has come off since. 

David.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Taperpin on 09/11/2008 2:56 AM

Before I start this post..please be aware that I am NOT bashing Accucraft.. merel;y trying to assist some owners with minor running fixes, ok.. 
Jason, 
[1] The 4-4-0 burners can over fire them..to check if this is the case.. open the smokebox door with the engine fired if a lambent 
flame is coming out of the smokebox..you may damage the stack and number plate.. 
[2] Look up the flue with the burner going you may see that the flame on the bunrer is "Split" by the steam pipe which runs through the flue , this spoils the combustion process of the burner as its disturbs the flame front formation , this in turn lowers the heat output and to compensate drivers tend to open the gas valve higher..which makes the Flame in the smokebox problem worse.. 
The Fix: remove the burner, remove the steam pipe whcih runs through the flue..bend the steam pipe so thst it lies parrallel to the burner , but off to the side of the flue.. you want it hard up against the flue wall and clear of the slots in the burner, 
reinmstall the steam pipe.. get a piece of 40 or 50 mesh S/Steel gauze and roll up asingle layer tube of the gauze which will insert into the burner tube[ this is best done by rolling it round abrass rod about 3/16" diameter tightly .. slide it into the burner so that it covers the slots all the way to the end ..work it out to sit snugly inside .. 
now replace the burner [ checking ther gas jet first.. some have the tiny gas hole the right size but drilled off centre, this will affect the flame /mixture adversely ] if its like this replace it the jet must provide a conical gas steam expanding concentrically inside the burner.not canted of the one side.. 
Light up and look up from the front end again , you should see a low even . blue flame sitting on the burner all along its lenghtwith the steam pipe clear of the flame completely. if you still have a flame out of the smokebox.. install the smaller jet form Accucraft..it is also worth while putting ceramic sheet for heat barrier inside the smokebox door . to protect the number plate.more




Thanks for posting this information, this may really help. Let me pass on what else we found here in Houston. My 4-4-0 would not fire correctly with the flame sputtering out or not popping back. Tom Burns has one of these engines also and his works just fine. So we tried swapping jets, burners, replacing the tubing from the gas tank and nothing worked. Even though we found my burner had wider slots than his(why is that?) it really made no difference. When we put my tender on his engine the problem went over there and with his tender on my engine mine now worked perfectly. So........what we think now is the gas tank on my engine as some kind of blockage inside it that is not letting the gas flow out freely. When we take off the hose the gas just sputters out of the tank rather than flowing freely. It could be the control valve, but we unscrewed that and it looks ok. So now when I can reach Cliff I am going to have to ask for a new tank. Interesting and a real puzzler.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

John it worked properly before didnt it??? Id say try doing the brakeclean gas tank purge. Hopefully that will clean anything out that may be causing the problem. The hose also can be an issue as they al seem to be really kinked at the nipple. 

Thanks Gordon I already insulated the smokebox, its the 1st think I do with every loco. As for the superheater I know its an issue but havnt made a radiant burner for it yet.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 09/11/2008 7:26 PM
John it worked properly before didnt it??? Id say try doing the brakeclean gas tank purge. Hopefully that will clean anything out that may be causing the problem. The hose also can be an issue as they al seem to be really kinked at the nipple. 
Thanks Gordon I already insulated the smokebox, its the 1st think I do with every loco. As for the superheater I know its an issue but havnt made a radiant burner for it yet.




Actually Jason is has never worked exactly right, but it has gotten much worse now that you mention it so perhaps cleaning will help. We checked the hose for kinks and even replaced it with a non kinkable type that Tom uses. Even with the hose disconnected and the raw gas just coming out of the tank it is sputtering and spitting. It should flow smoothly.


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