# considering a Bridgewerks...any thoughts



## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Im considering a bridgewerks power pack. Anyone have any experience with them?


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

I started with the mag-15, loved it, worked like a charm, but then I went over to the dark side/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif 
tom h


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## Joe McGarry (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a Mag 15 Bridgewerks and am very happy with it. I've heard the are very good om honoring warranty problems. The gold plated banana plugs seem very good quality and won't corrode. Has led readouts for volts & amps. Wish they were analog, but no big deal to connect analog meters. Seems a very high quality product.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I havve an original 10 year old 15 amp four track unit manufactured by the previous ownership, but Dave S, (See ECLSTS photos topic for Dave's photo) has taken care of any issue. It has served us well. Our club also has the same unit and it has serves well for hundreds of hours running time with multiple locos and lighted trains.


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

I've been one of the unlucky ones when it comes to Bridgewerks. My TDR-25 started smoking shortly after I got it and had to be returned/repaired. My first Mag-15 was DOA due to a broken wire which I repaired myself. I still own the TDR-25 (Which now has periodic flashing led readouts) and another SR-15? that has worked fine. I agree with the earlier posts that Dave S and his wife are great people and are excellent at returns. I have also owned the Aristo power supplys and never had a problem with them. While Bridgwerks is American made/assembled it isn't necessarily the best...just depends on the unit you receive. One last note, if you decide to try remote control, I've had nothing but problems with the their UR-15 and RC-100s which have been returned mulitple times and still don't work properly. If all of this was limited to just one unit, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them, but just about every single unit I've purchased has had problems. That tells me that their QC is not what it needs to be.


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm thinking of the Mag sr series. I have a new indoor layout which has single main and some storage tracks. I'm a little better than half battery so it won't be used as a primary source. I'll only be using it for a few 4 axle 1st generation diesels every now and then. Also for visitors with track power. What amp would I really need? I was thinking the 5 amp($$$)??


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a MAG-15 which I have used with a UR-15 for several years and it has worked well for me. Before I bought the UR-15 I used it with Aristo Train Engineers but it really tended to put out too much voltage and occasionally overheated my Train Engineers. The TE's would cool off and start working again but I was measuring 29 volts from my MAG-15 so I like it better with the UR-15 to lower the voltage. 

I also have a SR-15 which I like and I think it is a good supply for most applications. I think that Dave can tell you how to make a tethered remote for it (one direction only). 

In addition I have a smaller (discontinued) Bridgewerks 6 amp unit which works fine but if you can afford the difference I think you will find the SR-15 a good choice in case you or a visitor ever want to run a multi engined train with lighted coaches. 

Its a lot cheaper in the long run if you start out with more power than you think you might ever need. 5 amps is good. 10 amps is better and 15 amps is probably more than most will need but it is nice to have. Sometimes having more power available can get that "stuck" loco to start moving again. 

My experience with most remotes is that they will only pass through 7 - 8 total amps regardless of the rating or power of the power supply. 

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i have an older 10 amp version -led read out, momentum, not compatible with the plug in remote 

these seem to be the quality of things made fifty of more years ago-heavy metal case, sturdy and heavy- a great american made product-simple and high quality 

it has had, at best, moderate use-id guess no more than 80-120 hours run time at best -some thing inside has twice failed-once a complete power failure-right at xmas no less, once everything like the leds and fans worked but no power to tracks-not dave's fault id guess but simply problem components that failed prematurely-never was there an issue of short or overload or mis connection 

currently my 10 amp BW unit now has a hot spot in throttle slide, in the very low range that will make the unit jump from dead crawl to full 24 v-makes switching a 'challenge'-momentum dampens any surprises-i plan on sending it back, again.... 

dave has always been great 

i dont think i should have had to deal with 'things' 3 times-plus the things are heavy and somewhat pricey to ship and pack well-keep the roignal box and padding 

to its credit-they ARE well made -heavy durable housing, handle, power plug is removable as are track and accessories, the fan is great as you can triple head, with a long train, on a grade, at a crawl, and the unit wont overheat-and run many lights and swiches and pola water mill etc, and theres plenty of power 

a fantastic feature is these units have 0-24 v track, fixed 24 DC, fixed 12 dc (great for lights) and fixed 16 or 18 v ac -for swuitches-they are really super in this regard-and the power is huge and smooth 
the banana plugs are also great for using the unit outside (probably not recommended i guess) but i do in dry weather0 plug in the bananas-unplug and use the carrying handle back into the house-some of my banana plugs 'springs' have separated from the body and i have simply soldered them to avoid this nuisance 

another seemingly simple but great feature it the metal 'governor' plate which limits the upper range of throttle bar travel-protects me from myself-and of course, those who are new to running my trains-in essence it keeps trains from being run like slot cars-eliminates needless detail and paint damaging derailments and pile ups 

HOWEVER i have to say, these niggling issues i have experienced, together with a recent bad review about the quality of the bridgewerks remotes, and voltage leakage to the track and thier limited range, prompted me to buy an lgb 6 amp ac unit with outdoor throttle AND the big 10 amp with tethered remote-neither is anywhere near the value of BW but the lgb throttles are superb -smooth and responsive 

id would buy a BW again


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the 15 amp SR. It's great ... no problems. I have heard that because the unloaded voltage may be higher than expected that it may be a good idea for safety to connect a light bulb or something else to provide resistance of one kind or another to the permanent voltage terminals, so that it's never truly unloaded when on. 

The only difference between th SR and the older mag 10/15's is the terminals to allow remote controlling of the speed..... something else I plan to take advantage of, eventually. 

Matthew (OV)


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Like Statecreek said... I have ck'ed out a few of there Power packs for guys layouts and most of them put out with no load, 28 volts. I just tested out a 4 bank older model that was sold on e-bay. and it did the same thing on each bank... 
One of my Buddy's had a problem with a couple of USA Streamlines pass cars to show off the lighting.. He turned on the power to the track with nothing else on tracks and all the lights went poof. If he had an Eng. or more cars on the tracks probably wouldn't of burned out the lights... 
We found out if there is some kind of a load on the track, the max voltage comes back down to 24 volts. Seems like it need some to reference to? 

So Don't turn up the throttle wide open with just one or two USA pass cars on it. 

Other than that there great power supply's.. Most likely last a life time. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

Now i got to make a post on how do you get these darn USA Pass cars apart to re-do or repair the lighting? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I had 2 Mag 15s' loved them...I sold one for $50 less then I origionally paid for it and used iot for 5 years...solid perfomer! 

I still use one as my test amp as I don't use track power any longer. 

Now others may or have posted troubles with them, but I cannot say anything bad about them. 

This is just MHO...now you have to decide..may the force be with you. 

Bubba


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## pcentral (Jan 3, 2008)

I use a Mag 5 with the UR15 remote and I am very happy with them. I originally bought an older discontinued model and used it for about a year until all the smoke came out of it. I contacted Dave about it and sent it to him for repair. He ended up replacing it for me as he had changed the design and components over the years. He charged me nothing for the new unit. I have had no problems with the new unit nor the remote and I get great reception with it. 

At the Fairplex Garden RR we use quite a lot of BW units and have had very little trouble with them. I think many of the problems people have had with bad units have been with the older units. Dave has continued to refine his design and makes a superior product in my opinion. 

Steve


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Expensive. Very reliable. Very nice. 

Too expensive for me. Now I've gone over to the dark side.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Bridgewerks are the best...Just ordered my second Mag25TDR from Ridge Road Station..


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## Deano (Sep 21, 2008)

I went through the same process a few months ago. I was looking at replacing my two MRC 6200s. I actually managed to talk to some one from Bridgewerks on the phone. 
While I ended up not replacing the MRCs, I agree with most of the posts. 

The are two drawbacks.... 
1)They are very expensive 
2)The new releases don't have power plugs for accessories(switches) and they have no plans to provide it. You will have to provide power for accessories and lights with another power source. Perhaps the MRC that you may be replacing. 

Deano


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

One thing that always bothered me about Bridgewerks is that they give you very little information about the performance and specs of their power supplies on their web site.

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bridgewerkscc2.png

No mention of electrical parameters like the voltage output range or the regulation or the VA rating or the ripple (even though Bridgewerks makes an issue of the last two elsewhere on their website).


Instead they tell me the weight of the controller which is really immaterial in most cases and mention such important features as a "ball-bearing" fan, a 'speed governor' (what ever that is) and a 'quick disconnect gold-plated plug' which I doubt can handle the 15 amps of the higher powered unit.


Maybe Bridgewerks thinks the average Large Scale model railroader doesn't understand these parameters. To me it makes a big difference if the maximum voltage the controller supplies is 16, 24 or 28 volts, what the regulation is over the voltage range etc.

Maybe I went to the dark side as well - I just use an inexpensive commercial 24 volt switching supply with an external controller. The voltage output is always the same regardless of current draw, ripple is barely measurable, and no fan is needed for the lower powered units (up to 7 amps or so) because of the high efficiency of those units.

Turns out my trains also run much better because there is no voltage sag as the current requirements increase when my train heads up an incline.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By krs on 09/28/2008 3:19 PM
One thing that always bothered me about Bridgewerks is that they give you very little information about the performance and specs of their power supplies on their web site.








http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bridgewerkspz3.jpg




(Sorry - the new mls software assumes that the image you want to post s hosted on mls. This image is hosted on imageshack and of all the little icons above the body field, there isn't a single one I could find that lets you add an image hosted elsewhere.) 

No mention of electrical parameters like the voltage output range or the regulation or the VA rating or the ripple (even though Bridgewerks makes an issue of the last two elsewhere on their website).


Instead they tell me the weight of the controller which is really immaterial in most cases and mention such important features as a "ball-bearing" fan, a 'speed governor' (what ever that is) and a 'quick disconnect gold-plated plug' which I doubt can handle the 15 amps of the higher powered unit.


Maybe Bridgewerks thinks the average Large Scale model railroader doesn't understand these parameters. To me it makes a big difference if the maximum voltage the controller supplies is 16, 24 or 28 volts, what the regulation is over the voltage range etc.

Maybe I went to the dark side as well - I just use an inexpensive commercial 24 volt switching supply with an external controller. The voltage output is always the same regardless of current draw, ripple is barely measurable, and no fan is needed for the lower powered units (up to 7 amps or so) because of the high efficiency of those units.

Turns out my trains also run much better because there is no voltage sag as the current requirements increase when my train heads up an incline.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Like Tom said, expensive, big and heavy, and most reports reliable. 

But, for some reason, people think "filtered DC" or "Pure DC" is best for running. Actually mild pulse power will give you better performance than heavily filtered DC. 

The big thing for me is voltage sag. I guess a 15 amp supply for one train makes sense if you are running multiple locos and lots of lighted passenger cars. 

I stick with inexpensive regulated supplies (switchers) When I can buy a reliable MeanWell 11 amps and 27 volts (I need the voltage for DCC) for $80, it just makes more sense to me. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09/29/2008 10:31 AM

But, for some reason, people think "filtered DC" or "Pure DC" is best for running. Actually mild pulse power will give you better performance than heavily filtered DC. 




I think this depends on the specific motor and to some degree on the gearing that is used.

Low cost 3 and 5-pole motors do work better with mild pulse power especially at low speeds, but I don't think that is true for the 7-pole Buehler motors.


When I switched from a traditional model train power supply to a Meanwell switching supply and the analog trackside Aristo Train Engineer, my LGB engines ran noticably better.
Part of that I'm sure is the voltage regulation of the Meanwell, but the Meanwell is also very close to pure DC.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Side question............

Why did my last two posts show up inside a box?

I think it has something to do with me trying to quote in the last post - but in the one before I tried to edit the image file.


This forum still needs some serious fixing of the software.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you hit "quote" instead of reply. 

You can delete/mess up the "quote" tags. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi Greg - 

Yes, I did hit 'quote' but that was on purpose. 

I expected the existing post to show up in a 'quote' box and my reply below that. 
That's how every forum works that I know of....well, except mls. 

How does one quote a previous post or part of a post correctly on mls? 

Regards, Knut


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 09/30/2008 3:16 PM
Hi Greg - 

Yes, I did hit 'quote' but that was on purpose. 

I expected the existing post to show up in a 'quote' box and my reply below that. 
That's how every forum works that I know of....well, except mls. 

How does one quote a previous post or part of a post correctly on mls? 

Regards, Knut


Press and hold the down-arrow key (until the insertion cursor stops moving down the screen), or be sure t click well below the quoted text, to be sure you are typing BELOW the message, and not starting on the last line of the quoted material.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

My first reaction to your reply was: "You must be joking" 

But then I figured you are really serious and I thank you for taking the time to reply. 
I had actually started typing my reply three lines below the message but that was obviously not far enough down. 

I don't know how other people feel, but the forum software that's being used by mls is by far the worst, user un-friendly software I have seen in a long time. 
Hard for me to understand why since there is so much excellent forum software available.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 09/30/2008 6:34 PM
My first reaction to your reply was: "You must be joking" 

But then I figured you are really serious and I thank you for taking the time to reply. 
I had actually started typing my reply three lines below the message but that was obviously not far enough down. 

I don't know how other people feel, but the forum software that's being used by mls is by far the worst, user un-friendly software I have seen in a long time. 
Hard for me to understand why since there is so much excellent forum software available. 




Well, yes I was seriously attempting to answer your need, but it is also possible that I am all wet, too!









As I type this I am monitoring the area at the bottom of the edit text area, thinking that I could point out something that would help you, but I am confused as to what the text means to the right of the "Preview" link. I "thought" (and I gotta be careful doing that thinking stuff) that it was the last "Code" associated with the text where the insert cursor is in the block of text. At first, it was "div.NTForums_Quote" which I thought was an indicator that the cursor was within the Quoted text, but the indicator didn't go a way until after I had typed a full line of text, which left me wondering if I was clear of the quoted area yet. (and, yes, it takes a while for the software to update that area when it should change and I had waited for that to occur). Presently it shows "div" which is typical computer speak for something nobody can understand (and I am a computer programmer!). So much for pointing out something useful!









I have seen lots worse forum software but there are few forums that have the ability to host small photos or that have some of the other features available here. Yet, I too, wish that there were some changes to this software to make it much plainer as to what goes where and when and why and how and... and, and, and....

Except for the fact that one can delete portions of the quoted text, which allows one to shorten it to indicate that the answer is for what remains, I don't like it that quoted text can be altered and I wish it was demarked somehow in the text entry box so the user would know if they are encroaching upon it while typing their reply.

I wish it did NOT allow the text size or color to be altered... judicious use of size and color can be helpful, but too many folk make a habit of making the text real large and of an odd color and both make it just as hard to read as the small text they are so upset about and are trying to overcome.

It is also very slow to load the smelly's (err, smileys) window to select a smiley... well, maybe that is a good thing as it will reduce the number of smellys that people put in.

Aside from those pet peeve's of mine, the software is pretty good, from my viewpoint, which I recognize is different from EVERYBODY else's! Give it a little time for you to become accustomed to its idiosyncracies and when something goes awry again (expect it) don't hesitate to ask "whut happened?", somebody will attempt to answer, even if it is only to commiserate with you.


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## ShaneK (Oct 12, 2008)

I would like to address some of the comments here about the Bridgewerks products (it is fair for you to know that I work with Bridgewerks and just found these posts). Bridgewerks prides itself on customer service provided, our unconditional 5 year warranty and the high-quality of our products. We have sold thousands of power supplies and have occasionally had some break down as you can see from some posts. I only want to reply to these posts to clarify the information 

1. There was a post by Richard Weatherby on April 5 that says in part " have an original 10 year old 15 amp four track unit manufactured by the previous ownership..." Bridgewerks has never been under any other ownership than it's current owners. The actual bridge division (originally Bridgewerks was formed to make bridges and later began manufacturing the power controllers) was sold to HR Trains in Florida who still makes these high quality bridges. The power controllers have always been under the same management. 

2. Some people have reported problems with their remotes - different factors can affect remote performance including RF (radio frequency) interference from other devices in a particular location. Since most RF remote controls operate at different frequencies, some will have better performance in different locations. I can tell you that we have tested the units with ranges from 100-150 feet with no problems - however there is no way to guarantee the same performance at every location. 

3. Yes you can find cheaper power supplies on the market but they will not be built to the same quality, will not have comparable VA ratings and will not have the same guarantee that Bridgewerks provides - a 5 year no questions asked warranty where units are either repaired or replaced and often are updated to the latest release of the same model at no charge. 

4. Steve Denver posted that his unit has had 3 problems - while he stated that he has an older unit he did not say exactly how old. That said I will tell you that we did have some bad components delivered by a manufacturer in the past - the problems were not known until units were in the market - all units experiencing those issues are repaired without a repair fee. The final problem listed is a problem in the "throttle slide" It is possible that this part is defective but other factors can contribute as well such as environment (used outdoors, used or stored in dirty or dusty locations, etc.) or spills (water, soda, coffee, etc.). Bridgewerks will of course repair the unit at no charge other than postage to send it in. 

5. Switching power supplies are harmful, contrary to some of the posts here. For example, consider this information listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply 
"A switched-mode power supply, switching-mode power supply or SMPS, is an electronic power supply unit (PSU) that incorporates a switching regulator. While a linear regulator maintains the desired output voltage by dissipating excess power in a "pass" power transistor, the SMPS rapidly switches a power transistor between saturation (full on) and cutoff (completely off) with a variable duty cycle whose average is the desired output voltage. The resulting rectangular waveform is low-pass filtered with an inductor and capacitor. ... ...Disadvantages include greater complexity, the generation of high amplitude, high frequency energy that the low-pass filter must block to avoid electromagnetic interference (EMI), and a ripple voltage at the switching frequency and the harmonic frequencies thereof." 

Looking at this information you see that a switching power supply generates a square waveform - again from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave "...square waves contain a wide range of harmonics; these can generate electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that interfere with other nearby circuits, causing noise or errors." 

Additionally, we can see in the last sentence that switching power supplies can introduce ripple voltage. Ripple voltage is bad it can damage electronics such as those in expensive sound systems and can lead to overheating of DC motors. For more information please see our FAQ at: http://www.bridgewerks.com/Pages/faqs.html 

The key here is that Bridgewerks builds only linear power supplies. We use many power transistors to dissipate heat (and use ball bearing fans for longevity in cooling). We highly filter the power to deliver ultra-pure DC power - you can see a profile of our ripple current at: http://www.bridgewerks.com/Pages/Ripplechart.html 

6. A comment was made about the gold plated banana plugs "'quick disconnect gold-plated plug' which I doubt can handle the 15 amps of the higher powered unit." -- These plugs will handle the 25 amps output by our Mag 25TDR - we have tested them under extremely high-load for over 24 hours with requirements that would not normally be reached by 99.99% of users. These are very good high-quality plugs. 

7. There was a comment made about placing additional technical specifications on our website - we will be updating parts of the site and will evaluate updating our technical specs. In general, our power output without load is 28-30V max. All of our Amp ratings are based on max output at 20Vdc - now you can always calculate our VA by multiplying 20 x Amp rating i.e. 20 x 15 = 300 for a 15 Amp power pack. Regarding ripple - the ripple current is so low it is very difficult to measure the best we can provide is the profile chart as indicated above. 

We know that if you talk to most people that have used our power supplies that they will tell you that their trains have never run better, sounded better or operated more smoothly. 

Sorry for the long post - we just want everyone to have the best information possible about Bridgewerks and if you have questions please give us a call - you can get our number at www.bridgewerks.com 

Thank you.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Could you be more specific about point 6?

I'm looking for high current banana plugs but can't find any that handle 25 amps or even anything close to that. 


A manufacturer name and a part number would be appreciated.



As to point 5 maybe someone else can comment. There is just too much to comment on for the time I have right now.


Let me just say that pretty much all computer supplies are switching supplies. I said "pretty much" because there is probably some under powered cheap one around somewhere with a linear supply.

So I take it everyone who uses a computer uses a "harmful" supply. I better stop typing..........oh.no.....I don't have to..........I don't use just any computer, I use a *Mac, *a Mac couldn't possibly use a harmful switching supply.

Actually, thinking about it again - maybe I'm lucky and they do - that way I can sue Apple - they have lots of money.......but seriously.

Let me just pick one thing - ripple.

The 10 amp 24 volt switching supply that I use has worst case ripple at 10 amps specified at 180mv. Measurements I took on a couple of units came in at half or less than half of that.
Looking at the Bridgewerks chart, I'm guessing that the ripple curve at 8 amps is also around 150 to 180mv - hard to pin down an actual value. But there is no indication if that is a worst case since there is no spec or if this is just an typical measurement comparable to my 80 - 90 mv. There is no Bridgewerks spec on that I could find.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Point 5 is BS in that is says switching power supplies are harmful. Virtually all power supplies made today are switching, from the little chargers for your cell phone, to ALL DCC power boosters, to computer power supplies. 

I am objecting to the word "harmful".... if they were indeed harmful, they would not be used. 

There are advantages and disadvantages to each type of power supply. 

While it's clear that as an employee you want to promote the product, you should stick to facts, and by the way, the wikipedia, while interesting, is written by volunteers, and is not the final word in accuracy in the world. Ripple can be a problem in certain circuits, but it is the AMOUNT of ripple. For example on my DCC layout, it makes no nevermind at all. Now ripple in an audio amplifier makes audible noise. 

Ripple is not normally a concern in power supplies for trains, and pulse power for trains has been around longer than you have been alive, I'll wager. 

When I worked for Hewlett Packard in my early twenties, I was really proud to have been taught the following: 

Sell your product on it's advantages, don't sell by disparaging other products. 

By the way, thank you for giving one important specification, the volts at which the amps are measured. VA is a commonly misunderstood rating. Very few manufacturers will give this data. 

Now, I would like more information on your product, do you ever publish pictures of the insides? I have heard (and I believe) that your product is of very high quality. I would enjoy seeing something built well, I'm really tired of the cheap junk I have seen on the market, with poor soldering, wires not crimped on lugs before soldering, etc. (This is just out of curiosity, no ulterior motive). 

Is your output regulated, i.e. given a fixed throttle setting, does the unit put out a fixed voltage, irrespective of current, i.e. regulated? 

Thanks, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Since I'm still up, I thought I'd post another tidbit

The gentleman from Bridgewerks wrote:

* Looking at this information you see that a switching power supply generates a square waveform - again from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave "...square waves contain a wide range of harmonics; these can generate electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that interfere with other nearby circuits, causing noise or errors."*

A switching power supply doesn't *generate* a square wave form, a function generator does that, a switching power supply uses a high frequency waveform internally instead of the 60 Hz line frequency so that smaller components can be used for the power transformation. The switching supply is shielded and any high frequency component is filtered so that the output is as pure DC as the Brudgewerks supply, probably purer.


However, anyone running trains using DCC (or MTS) is putting a squarewave on the rails that swings roughly between +20 and -20 volts. If you want to worry about "*a wide range of harmonics; these can generate electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that interfere with other nearby circuits, causing noise or errors" - *that's the place to look.


Actually, before any "DCC or MTS people" get nervous - those product have to meet regulatory EMI radiation etc. requirements as well so there is no problem with DCC either.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And DCC decoders are designed from the start to work with this signal, so no DCC or MTS people should get nervous... I feel fine... really! 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg - 

Are you sure you feel fine? 
Maybe you should see your doctor and have your head examined to make sure your brain isn't slowly being fried, piece by piece by this electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that are being generated by the DCC signal. 

Regards, Knut


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## yardtrain (Feb 18, 2008)

Below is from MTH Hudson Steam engine manual. Read the last sentence. I have 2 MTH engines and Iam controlling it thru DCS. I am power it with a 22Volt regulated 15amp supply. They run very well. The voltage remains steady at the track. Will your trains run with switching supplies? Sure. Are swiching supplies the smart way to go? NO! How much did you invest in your engines? Invest in good power also. Since Iam running MTH DCS I do not need a hand throttle. So I was able to just use a high quality regulated supply which was much cheaper then a Bridgewerks. I did however have to mount it in a case anse add my own cooling fans. 


*Transformer Compatibility and Wiring Chart*
Proto-Sound 2.0 is designed to work with most standard AC transformers and all DC
power supplies. The chart below lists the many compatible AC transformers. Note that
many of the operational commands described in these instructions require a bell button,
so if your transformer does not have its own bell button, you should consider adding one
to get the full benefit of the system. In addition, the chart details how the terminals on
these transformers should be attached to your layout. DC transformers employing PWM
(pulse width modulation) should not be used with the separately sold DCS system.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2008)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 07/05/2008 7:42 PM
Bridgewerks are the best...Just ordered my second Mag25TDR from Ridge Road Station.." src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />




Like Chuck, i use a bridgewerks tdr 25 amp for my trains including MTH DCS locos and have found this power pack to be worth what i paid in that the power and reliabilty has been dead on....








Nick


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, Not to argue but the many times that I've been on the phone with both USA Trains & Phoenix sound and mention the word Pulse Power I've been told that neither manufacturer will warranty any electronic failure and that they will find the reason why a electronic board failed. I've been told use only pure filtered DC power esp. with USAT. My USAT Hudson lights would flicker when using say the Crest 55465 and no light flicker using a DC power supply.

True a regulated power supply works great with DCC but not when using conventional track power...why run a expensive loco with a glorified battery charger??

My opinion is to buy the biggest Bridgewerks power supply that you can afford..ya can never have to much power in large scale..


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Yardtrain, Nick and Chuck - 

There is a HUGE misunderstanding here. 

A switched mode power supply and "Pulse Power" are two totally different things!!! 

And a battery charger is something different again. 

A switched mode power supply will give you "pure DC" at the output with a tiny ripple measured in millivolts - milli as in thousands of a volt. 
It will give you purer DC and better regulation than any DC model train power supply out there. The switch-mode refers to the technology that is used within the power pack itself - it has nothing to do with the output. 

Pulse Power or PWM power is essentially a fixed DC voltage that is switched on and off at different duty cycles which to a motor "looks" like a variable DC voltage depending on the duty cycle. The frequency used with pulse power determines the heating effect of the motor - a low frequency heats motors more than a high frequency. Low frequency pulse power cannot be used with coreless DC motors because they would overheat. 
Electronic devices often have capacitive filtering at the input and if you apply pulse power, the capacitor charges to the full DC voltage (not the integration voltage of the duty cycle of the pulse power) and that won't allow the electronics to work properly if it is designed to be DC voltage dependent. 
On the other hand - a switch mode power supply will provide PURE DC - the connected electronics can't tell the difference between it and an old-fashioned linear power supply. 

Well, and a battery charger for automotive batteries, which I actually have seen people use for trains. is simply a transformer with a full wave rectifier bridge - no filtering at all. You get full-wave rectified 60 Hz at the output. 

Knut


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have been reading this topic with some interest but had intended to not make any comments - mainly because I am not qualified to discuss the technical issues involved.

I have had a recent experience I would like to comment on. 

My office/shop layout has a variety of trains on it and over the past months I have experienced problems with locomotives that first made me think I had exceptionally dirty track. After cleaning the track (several times) I started to suspect the particular loco I was running (a very old and well used LGB Mogul).

I then bought another LGB Mogul (recent production but used) and was surprised to find I started having similar problems with it. Since it was used I started to suspect this loco too - especially when the headlight would even become bright but the loco would not move - the older Mogul headlight would flicker a bit.

It happened that I had also bought a new Aristo-Craft Doodlebug & Heavyweight set so I put that on the tracks and it (and another matching set) now have well over a dozen running hours with no sign of any problems.

I have a pretty wide assortment of both brands of locomotives and brands of power supplies and the only conclusion I have come up with has been that some locos seem to like some power supplies (usually those of the same brand as the loco) better than others.

What is strange is that the LGB locos run perfectly fine now under LGB power yet the first Mogul (and other LGB Moguls) had run for months with no problems and then gradually started having problems. 

I'm not mentioning the power supply I am using because it is more complicated than that and I don't want to falsely blame a brand or product that might not be the real culprit. 

About all I am saying is that some brands and models of locos seem to demonstrate a preference for some brands of power supplies but perhaps more important some sound systems seem to be more compatible with some brands and models of power supplies than with others.

I have had very good results with Bridgewerks (and love their warranty which even covered a discontinued power supply) and I have some locos/sound systems that seem to prefer the Bridgewerks power but I also have some other locos/sound systems that seem to prefer the power output of LGB power supplies and yet other locos/sound systems that seem to prefer Aristo power supplies (don't ask me to explain it - I could not).

One potential problem that I have (I think) discovered is that power supplies are potentially so complex that they could start giving us problems without actually failing leaving us who are not engineers and who do not have (or know how to use) an oscilloscope scratching our heads unless we have another power supply to help us identify where an electrical problem is originating at.

Regards,

Jerry


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

To further muddy the waters.... 

There's a big difference between PWC/PWM where the "pulse width" is either "controlled" or "modulated" (depending on whose gear you're using) or the older "Pulse Power" found in old "Throttlepack" controllers and the like. 

The former will generally work with off-the-shelf large scale locomotives. The latter is particularly harmful to some types of motors sometimes found in model trains. 

Your mileage may vary. 

Oh, and I've got a Bridgewerks Mag 10 SR that's served me quite well for a long time.... no problems ever, and has always done exactly what I've asked of it. 

Matthew (OV)


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry - 

It's not really the brand of power supply that determines how well they work with a particular engine or sound system but rather the technology they are using. 

Bridgewerks is still using basic linear technology with capacitance filtering on all their supplies, Aristocraft have used al least linear power like Bridgewerks and Pulse Power and switched-mode power. 

Below is a picture (I hope it shows up - if not here is the link: http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8283/modeltrainpowersupplyvofu7.jpg) of the various types of output voltages used in model railroading. 
These diagrams were lifted from the European Model Railroad NEM standards. 











Some model train power supplies even use a combination of these waveforms depending on throttle setting. I believe the LGB Jumbo provides pulse power at very low throttle settings changing to DC as you increase the throttle.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Knut,

In my case I use brand as more indicative of various technologies that may vary from brand to brand (or technology that may vary within a brand). I don't know much about the technologies involved or the technological requirements of the various types of motors.

In my case I like the simplicity of Bridgewerks (not having the stuff you mentioned) yet I realize that there is no one choice is best for all situations. On the other hand I just bought Aristo's new 15 amp power supply and 15 amp throttle and new Train Engineer (don't ask me why - I'm not really sure).

Then again I would not want to even guess what happens when I start throwing in things like mixing brands of remote controls and throttles with the different power supplies such as when I connect a Train Engineer to a MAG-15 or even when I connect a UR-15 to a MAG-15.

Its funny that you mention the LGB Jumbo because they are my all time favorite power supplies and in my opinion they far exceed their rated capacity - as reflected in the many locos/trains I can run with them vs other similarly rated power supplies. Of course I would never attempt to explain or justify what I just said (I could not).

I tend to think of Bridgewerks as plain pure DC muscle power. Right or wrong they seem to just put out a lot of power that if anything seems to be at least equal to their rating but sometimes they can exceed their DC voltage rating (not always a good thing). Then too the reverse can happen with some sound systems that are perhaps designed for best performance with something other than pure DC power.

I'm not trying to explain anything or convince anyone of anything. I'm just saying that I have had a lot of strange experiences with different brands and models of power supplies. When we mix and match brands of stuff the results are not always predictable.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Bridgewerks is a high-end DC power supply. It makes nice DC, in my opinion, nicer than what I need, and more expensive than what I need to pay. 

I run DCC, and lots of locomotives, so I need several high amp power supplies. I have found 11 amp, 27 volt regulated supplies for $80 each, so I'm a happy guy. I have no need for throttles, and today's switching power supplies are compact, work well, and are efficient. 

If I was running DC all the time, I might consider a Bridgewerks. 

The only point I think is germane is that getting all worked up about "pure DC" and very low ripple is overkill in my opinion. 

So, it's a matter of choice where to spend your $$. I'd like to see the construction of the Bridgewerks, but from all the opinions I have seen, it is of superior construction. I do not doubt that at all. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Greg,

One thing I like about the Bridgewerks units is that they are not difficult to open (no factory seals). I once had a problem with a new MAG-15 but it was simply a female terminal that had come off (I prefer wire terminals to soldered connections). 4 screws and a few minutes later and it was fixed with no delays, packaging or expense of shipping it to Bridgewerks.

I mention this in that if you know anyone with a Bridgewerks (and since you would know what you would be doing - safely) it would be easy to see the insides of it.

I currently have a Bridgewerks 60 (long discontinued) that I am trouble shooting and I think that I have figured out the problem but a photo of the insides of it would not reflect their current models other than that there is nothing that suggests cost cutting in the way it was built. I'm sure that Bridgewerks would fix it free but first I want to see if there is something easy that would avoid having to ship it anywhere.

For what it is worth I don't think there is a single brand of power supply that I use that has not required at least one repair. With the inexpensive power supplies it is often a piece of plastic that breaks and with the more expensive ones it is usually something electrical. Since I have relatively high (125 VAC) household voltage and a lot of my power supplies are pushed to their limits (and shorts are not uncommon on my layouts) I expect some power supply problems.I buy 10 amp fuses for my Train Engineers in bulk.

Regards,

Jerry


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry - 

Are your Bridgewerks units UL/CSA certified? made me wonder since they are that easy to open. 

And instead of buying 10 amp fuses in bulk why don't you invest in one of these 10 amp automotive type breakers that plugs right in where your fuse would normally go and never buy a fuse again? 

Knut


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By krs on 10/20/2008 7:16 AM
Jerry - 

Are your Bridgewerks units UL/CSA certified? made me wonder since they are that easy to open. 

And instead of buying 10 amp fuses in bulk why don't you invest in one of these 10 amp automotive type breakers that plugs right in where your fuse would normally go and never buy a fuse again? 

Knut


Hi Knut,

I don't think anything but LGB is UL/CSA certified. I could be wrong but I don't recall seeing a UL certification on anything but LGB. I've always wondered why no one in the hobby seemed to care about it.

I have tried various things with the Train Engineers but I don't trust circuit breakers for use on circuits that were designed for fast blowing fuses. I have talked to various people over the years and finally concluded that fuses are cheap enough and I don't burn out too many anymore.

Regards,

Jerry


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Hmmmm........I thought anything sold in the US or Canada that plugs into a 115 volt wall outlet has to be either UL or CSA certified or listed to be sold legally. 

I know that insurance companies won't pay or at least give you a hard time if there is a fire and it's caused by an electrical product that does not have UL or CSA certification. I wonder how companies like Bridgewerks and Aristocraft get away with this - everything I looked at so far in my house has UL or CSA certification, even the cheap $10.- desk lamp from China. 
Maybe the gentleman from Bridgewerks can shed some light on this. 

Knut


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

UL Listing or Certification are not required for most products, but most will build to UL or other NRTL standards/specifications for the very reasons listed in your second paragraph. 

Also, for UL listing, it is the mfgr that is policing themselves, they have the inital testing performed, then must continue to make produtcts to the specific UL code (not just electrical stuff, but even non electrical process equipment for flammable liquids can be UL listed) with the chance of a follow up inspection/test. 

Enough time on this post, it is too much like work.......


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

So you are saying it's perfectly legal to sell an electrical appliance that is not UL listed and have people buy and use it, but when it becomes defective, causes a fire and burns the house down, the insurance company can also, perfectly legally, say - Sorry, you're not covered because a non-listed appliance caused your house to burn down. 

Fine state of affair that is.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As I understand it UL listing/approval is an expensive and time consuming process that may be prohibitively expensive for a small company that offers a variety of products (each of which would need to be tested). Perhaps more important from their viewpoint is that those costs would have to be passed on to the customers in the form of higher prices and perhaps delayed new product introductions.

It is easy to see how a $10 wall transformer that is sold by tens or hundreds of thousands would be easier to justify UL expenses over a $200 power supply that might be sold in the hundreds.

I also seem to recall having been told that the UL standards for toy transformers would make it very difficult to meet with power supplies over 5 amps. 

For what it is worth my former employer sold products for telephone line low voltages (requiring a different UL approval) but those same products were not sold for higher voltage applications even though I personally found them perfect for 115 VAC applications. When I asked why we could not sell them for higher voltages I was told that the UL costs were prohibitive for the volume of sales that were anticipated.

I too would like to see UL approval on all power supplies but as long as we are in a very price competitive market I suspect the real question is how much more we would pay for that UL listing? So far I have not detected much interest in the subject.

As to insurance, the fall back is that if a power supply failed and caused our house to burn down I am sure that most of us would not hesitate to sue the manufacturer of that power supply. They know that and should be smart enough to protect themselves with adequate fire protective designs. I know the Bridgewerks housings are all metal and I would have a hard time imagining a fire emerging from one of them - but I did once have a UL Listed space heater spout fire outside the confines of the heater.

As I said, I would like to see UL Listing or Approval on everything (I'm not even sure what the difference is) but I don't look for it to happen and I don't think we can single out one manufacturer over it when their customers do not seem to be demanding it. The reality is that not having UL Listing does not mean that a product is less safe - just that it is less tested.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I just read this in the LGB instructions:

Toy train safety regulations limit the 55005 MTS Central Station to a maximum power output of 5 amps. That’s not enough if you are running a very large number of trains or accessories requiring electrical power (for example, cars with interior lighting). With the MTS Power Extender, you can power several track sections with 5 amps each. The Power Extender relays the commands of the Central Station to the additional track section. You can use up to four MTS Power Extenders with their associated transformers on one layout. This allows you to power up to five track sections with up to 5 amps each.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like the "power extender" is what the rest of the DCC world calls a booster. 

See if you can find specs for the signal between the central station and the power extender. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 10/29/2008 9:04 AM
I just read this in the LGB instructions:

Toy train safety regulations limit the 55005 MTS Central Station to a maximum power output of 5 amps.




I remember when this was first stated by LGB, there was a general question as to which Toy Train regulation limits the current output to 5 amps.
As far as I know, that question was never answered - regulations for electrical toys reuire that the nominal potential not exceed 24 volts, but there was no limit indicated for the maximum current.

And Greg - the power extender is a booster. There were several wiring diagrams on the net that showed how to connect a regular booster to the MTS central station.

They looked a bit complicated on the surface, but all it was was a simple resistive divider to reduce the output voltage of the MTS Central Station to level more compatible with booster input requirements. And of course the AC transformers to feed the boosters.


Knut


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By krs on 10/29/2008 11:59 PM
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 10/29/2008 9:04 AM
I just read this in the LGB instructions:

Toy train safety regulations limit the 55005 MTS Central Station to a maximum power output of 5 amps.




I remember when this was first stated by LGB, there was a general question as to which Toy Train regulation limits the current output to 5 amps.
As far as I know, that question was never answered - regulations for electrical toys reuire that the nominal potential not exceed 24 volts, but there was no limit indicated for the maximum current.

And Greg - the power extender is a booster. There were several wiring diagrams on the net that showed how to connect a regular booster to the MTS central station.

They looked a bit complicated on the surface, but all it was was a simple resistive divider to reduce the output voltage of the MTS Central Station to level more compatible with booster input requirements. And of course the AC transformers to feed the boosters.


Knut 




Hi Knut,

I have ordered both LGB Power Extenders and MRC Boosters. Can you tell me where I can find any of those wiring diagrams on the net that showed how to connect a regular booster to the MTS central station? The MRC Booster has its own 8 amp power supply and at a nice price - if it will work with the MTS Central Stations.

Regarding the 5 amp limit since LGB sold their products multi-nationally perhaps it was a different country (Germany?) that had a 5 amp limit. I don't recall a specific reference to UL but I could be wrong. An easier answer might be the question of whether any toy train or accessory manufacturer offers a transformer or power supply with a UL listing or approval that exceeds 5 amps. Once again I don't know the answer but I think it might be worth knowing if there is one.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I just want to add one additional point of information for those reading that at least with MTH DCS deployments, there is a BIG difference between using a switching power supply and old style linear like the bridgewerks. 
As the Amperage output increases on the switching supply it creates more frequency 'noise' that interferes with the TIU Engine signaling. (DCS signal frequency is added to the track power). I have also found that under very slow movements such as 1 SMPH crawls there is a marked difference in how the engine maintains its speed. Under a Bridgewerks linear the engine runs smooth, but under the switching it can have a bit of studdering. It was slight enough that I didn't notice it till I actually did the original switchout to the new Bridgewerks, but it was there. The studdering made me believe that the switching supply power was not as clean as the liner and I didn't view that as being as good for the electronics. (subjective opinion, maybe right or wrong, but..) An example of the signalling issue, where if you use an inexpensive switching supply and draw say 15amps of current you may have serious track signal issues but with even 25amps with a Bridgewerks, you won't notice any change in levels. 

So, it may be the case that in every other largescale application the switching power supplies may work just fine, but in some cases they are not optimal as is the case with DCS. 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, to just give you my opinion, I do swear by Bridgewerks, mainly for the reason I stated before but I also like their build quality. 

Dave (at Bridgewerks) is a good guy and provides excellent service. 

On the Mag 15, beware that is a true unregulated powerbrick that puts out 35v+. I've know three folks that used those and that never checked the output voltage, when they did they were all almost 35v even under load. Those powerbricks are I believe intended to be used to provide power to the bridgewerks like of unpower throttles and I don't believe they are good for use direct wired to the track all by itself. 

If you are using one and it does what you need great, just be aware this could be an issue. 


Raymond


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