# Cheep basic RC/Battery control



## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

I purchased a package of two remote control battery operated cars last Christmas from a department store for the reduced price of $10.00. The box contained two cars and two separate remote controllers that operate on different frequencies. The cars can be turned off/on, run forward/backward and turn right/left. I have an 0-4-0 LGB engine and a Bachmann trolley. I was hoping to use the receivers and transmitters from these cars to operate these small engines. I know how to add a battery pack and disconnect the track power on these two engines but I don't know how to install the receivers and tansmitters to operate them. The trolley will only go back and forth on a short 20' track and the 0-4-0 engine will only pull a few ore cars out of a cole mine tunnel and stop at the coal tipple before returning to the mine. Does anyone have information they can refer me to that would show how to do something like this. I am also looking for cheep sound cards that could be used for a trolley bell and a whistle for the engine. I have three engines running on battery/RC now. I use the RCS system but I was hoping to reduce the cost to operate these two small engines and their simple back and forth travel.

Thanks for any help

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Your speed control on these is going to be crude at best, non-existant is the more likely option. You can very easily just connect the motor in the train to the leads that go to the motor of the R/C car, and see what happens. Chances are, as soon as you pull the trigger (move the stick, whatever), the train will take off like a shot. My advice, try to run the cars as you would like to run the train, and see how well the car responds. You needn't worry about left-right, just forward-backward, and the amount of speed control you actually have. 

As for using those for some kind of automatic train control, I'd look elsewhere. There are a good number of automatic train controls that run power through the rails that will do what you want it to do, but battery R/C is not going to be one of the options for that. 

As for cheap sound, the cheapest (quality) sound I've seen advertised is from Dallee Electronics. They sell a sound system for around $100, which--considering you spent all of $10 on your control system, hardly qualifies as "cheap" in this context. I'm not sure if there's a bargain-basement digital sound recording or not. 

Later, 

K


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

Del Tapporo's critter control might be better than RC. 

But, If you have a scope available, take apart the cars and figure out the controller response to the remote commands. It it is standard R/C servo protocol, you can easily program a picAxe to do whatever you want in response to the Remote commands. If it is a non standard protocol, you may need to do a little fancier programming.


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

As for sound, Small Scale Railways is a bit cheaper at $80.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

St. Aubins Las Vegas has Dallee cards for $69.99 and they are an improvement of Small Scale...


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## pagosarr (Jan 5, 2008)

Anyone have a valid URL for Small Scale Railways? http://www.smallscalerailways.com isn't acceptable. Don't find anything for Dallee at St. Aubins either.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04/27/2009 5:45 PM

As for using those for some kind of automatic train control, I'd look elsewhere. There are a good number of automatic train controls that run power through the rails that will do what you want it to do, but battery R/C is not going to be one of the options for that. 

Well that's not quite true ... The G-Scale Graphics "Basic RailBoss R/C" will provide radio control along with the desired back 'n forth operation and automated station stops. Or you could use the "Enhanced Critter Control" which will do the same thing, minus the cost and space required for the R/C receiver.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Del, thanks for clarifying. I'm assuming you're still using magnets in the track to trigger the stops? Safe to say it wouldn't work with the $10 toy car R/C... 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The EVO R/C system also has automatic control functions as part of the operating program. 
I doubt it could be used with the el cheapo radios.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

errr.... 
wasn't the original question, how to install receivers and transmitters? 
i don't see, that big John expressed to want an automatic system.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Whilst it is true that automatic operation was not mentioned in the original post, I think that manually controlling a simple backward and forward 20' operation would soon become very boring. That sort of operation is best carried out by an automatic operating program.


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

I used one of those el-cheapo Radio Crap R/C controllers to trigger bell or whistle audio on an ITT Products board. It worked....... sorta. I had a train doing loops around the Christmas tree while I returned to working at my desk. Randomly, at least once or twice a minute, one of the sounds would go off just from whatever interference was in the air.

Craig


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.smallscalerailway.com/ 

I have both the Small Scale Railway board and the Dallee board. I like the Small Scale better, though you can't trigger the bell and whistle remotely. Just changed the Dallee board to a Phoenix P9


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

I have not dug into it very deeply, but the SSR website says the following: 
"If the user desires, an optional reed switch (or hall sensor) can 
toggle an input that can activate a whistle or horn pattern when a magnet is passed along the 
track. This feature will allow prototype whistle or horn patterns to be given at road crossings, 
passing trains, switch towers, etc. " 

Could the design have been changed?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was hoping to use the receivers and transmitters from these cars to operate these small engines.


John, 

Responses seem to be heading all over the place, but as Mr K says, you'll have to try it. The r/c car batteries are feeding the receiver and motor, so it's unlikely you'll be able to separate the two and run the motor on higher battery power. If the car runs on a couple of AA cells, then that's unlikely to make your train run very fast, if at all. 

However, you can buy small relays at Radio Shack that could be controlled by the r/c in the car. Attach one to the motor leads and it will turn on or off the battery supply to your train motor. Use just enough batteries to make the train move but not run like a rabbit. Use the left/right control to drive a DPDT relay that reverses direction. 

Re: Sound. There was a company advertising a few years ago who sold small ICs with just one 'sound' on them - sheep bleating, engine whistle, etc. They were triggered easily and cost $25+ each. Ah yes, Innovative Train Technology www.ittsound.com. Amazing what Google can do. 

How about http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Train_Sound_Effects.aspx. Or some good info here: 
http://www.trainelectronics.com/artcles/trainsound/GiveTrainAVoice.htm


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I'll have to be honest here. I've combed numerous forums and have yet to find a good tutorial for someone new to the hobby; someone not familiar with electronic circuit diagrams; something visual in nature that is simple. I think a lot of people feel intimidated by the whole process. 

I got into it by having someone on the phone and numerous emails as I was working. 

I'm not blaming anyone; that's just my honest observation. 

Part of the problem might be there are so many systems and so many types of trains and command systems and individual preferences. Heck, a whole book could be written on the matter.


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

The other problem with the cheap R/C is that it is simple on/off control. Usually it only does "forward, backward, right, left" not "forward 1/2 speed", "right 20 degrees" 

However, you may be able to translate the control signals into "forward", "backward", "Accelerate to speed", "slow to stop".


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

SE18, you're not alone. I've been doing battery R/C for 25 years, learning from a father with a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering. Even with that background, I still call "the experts" for assistance. With every system being different, little idiosyncrasies often pop up between this and that to the point where asking for help on forums like this seems to be the implied "step 7" in every installation manual. Alas, I don't see it ever changing, either. 

Later, 

K


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04/28/2009 2:17 PM
I still call "the experts" for assistance. . 

Later, 

K


Me Too! That is part of the fun in self installing, calling and chatting during programming an ESC! (or at least it is for me)

clae


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I have an electrical engineering degree. (That doesn't always mean a whole lot, believe me.







) The first year I was in this hobby, I was curious about battery power. However, it was the fear of the unknown that kept me away for years. The concept of isolating the motor leads to rewire the system was simple enough, but how in the world did one do that? I was afraid you had to get way down deep in the guts of "whatever there is down there" to do that. It was the mechanical part that scared me. What if I get this thing torn down and can't get it back together? I still don't like tearing locos apart (so I don't do installs on a commercial basis), but I did find out that like anything else; after you have done it a time or two, it becomes easier each time. Each loco is different, and there is usually little or no documentation on the loco to help much. But if you can twist a few wires together and hook some up to a screw terminal, you can probably do a battery install. Help is usually available from the vendor or here at MLS. Installing the control system is the easy part. Understanding what is still there may be the hard part (thus TOC's "cut'n throw" process may need to be engaged.)


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

Del wrote: 
"Each loco is different" 

And that is not even every *model* of loco is different, but that every stinkin' loco is different - if you know what I mean... 8^)


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I know this is probably a crazy idea, but...

Would it be possible (within reason, obviously) to use the left/right and forward/back inputs both for speed? I'm thinking that the steering input could be set for 1/3 power in either direction, and the forward/back input would be 2/3 power. That way you'd have 1/3, 2/3, or by combining both inputs, full power.

Is that practical? If the associated electronics would require more than about $20, it seems that the scheme would be too complex for the price, but might it be possible to form a relatively inexpensive R/C setup this way?


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

Like I tell folks who come to me and ask "Can You make your program do THIS?" the answer is, "it is a computer, you can make it do *anything*, how much money do you have?". 

If you put a micro-controller like a PicAxe or AVR between the receiver and the motor, it would be pretty easy. 

On the other hand, It would not be too hard to have the receiver trigger analog switches to provide a reference voltage to a linear regulator or PWM controller - like the two 555's in series I mentioned earlier.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 04/28/2009 4:14 PM
I know this is probably a crazy idea, but...

Would it be possible (within reason, obviously) to use the left/right and forward/back inputs both for speed? I'm thinking that the steering input could be set for 1/3 power in either direction, and the forward/back input would be 2/3 power. That way you'd have 1/3, 2/3, or by combining both inputs, full power.

Is that practical? If the associated electronics would require more than about $20, it seems that the scheme would be too complex for the price, but might it be possible to form a relatively inexpensive R/C setup this way?



Kenneth, most anything is possible, if you are willing to work to that end...I use the EVO control, and I'm sure Del's would work equally as well, both low cost and offer great range with no herky jerky motions!

cale


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

I plan to tear the cars apart this weekend. When I see what is in them I will post it. I was hoping to use the transmitter and receiver as a trigger to operate a cheep relay that will actually provide the power to the engine. I am not looking for variable speed controll. Just simple start/stop and forward and backward with a power supply that will drive the engine at slow speed. I thought the right/left output could be used to trigger the sound. The sound units I saw at the ECLSTS show were around $29 and only made one simple sound like a bell, whistle, cow moo, etc: I just lost the name of the company. 

John


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2009)

... and if you want to use the rest of the car too, just put a small gear on the driven aixle, and a bigger one on an aixle, that goes on the tracks. 
(you find any amount of gears in old videotape-recorders or old printers)


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

John... Here's a great supplier for sounds like that... ITT Sounds George will customize these modules as well. I have a number of them in my trolleys and other smaller bashes.

Also, the RailBoss controllers have been mentioned. They're great units and have a number of user friendly features.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Can I ask a silly question? 

Back 30 years ago the cheap RC cars were on one or two and maybe 4 channels in the 27mhz or was it 49mhz range? This has not changed much right? Back then there was a LOT of interference from all sorts of things. For me making the jump to "real" R/C cars was a need for better control (better radios and less interference) and replaceable parts. 

Back 20 some years ago when folks were playing with Stomper toy conversions some folks I thought I read were playing with cheap R/C cars as well. As I recall the consesus was that while a cheap toy was OK it was a crap shoot as to the range and control and how much interference or "glitching" one might encounter? I think the recommendation in the end was it was OK to do a small simple something from these units but NOT to use this type of control in a more expensive loco that might be damaged from a radio glitch that caused it to cycle from forward to reverse several times at full power. 

So has this changed at all? I'm not sure i'd be willing to risk a high end loco to a $5, $10, or even a $20 control system. Back when I was doing R/C cars you could get a cheap two stick ground freq. R/C system for under $50 that was adequate for most folks. That was when Aristocraft made radios for R/C cars and boats and planes. Do they still do that? 

Any how I think in the end you get what you pay for especially with RC systems. 

Having said that I've got a model kit that I'm retrofitting to a cheap Walmart RC car for a rail vehicle. jsut for grins. Don't expect it anytime soon though. I can't even get to the workshop right now. My mom's crap is piled up in the way. 

Chas


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 04/30/2009 8:48 AM

So has this changed at all? I'm not sure i'd be willing to risk a high end loco to a $5, $10, or even a $20 control system. Back when I was doing R/C cars you could get a cheap two stick ground freq. R/C system for under $50 that was adequate for most folks. That was when Aristocraft made radios for R/C cars and boats and planes. Do they still do that? 

Any how I think in the end you get what you pay for especially with RC systems.


I agree with the danger of glitching using a modified "toy" R/C system. However, rest assured that the controls that both Tony (RCS-EVO) and I (G-Scale Graphics RailBoss) sell for use with standard 2-stick hobby radios are "Glitch Free". Not that the radios themselves have changed any over the years, it's the application. The software in the controllers eliminate the effects of the glitching (radio interference).

Also, we don't make "cheep" controls, those are for the birds!


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Del (& Tony),
I meant no disrespect towards either of you or your systems. I was simply pointing out that for all the fuss and worry, it may be simpler to use some "off the shelf" systems for a little bit more money. Especially if it is something you want to last. 

Chas


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 04/28/2009 4:14 PM
I know this is probably a crazy idea, but...

Would it be possible (within reason, obviously) to use the left/right and forward/back inputs both for speed? I'm thinking that the steering input could be set for 1/3 power in either direction, and the forward/back input would be 2/3 power. That way you'd have 1/3, 2/3, or by combining both inputs, full power.

Is that practical? If the associated electronics would require more than about $20, it seems that the scheme would be too complex for the price, but might it be possible to form a relatively inexpensive R/C setup this way?




Despite the electrical engineers suggesting a variety of expensive ways to do it.. Yes, there is a way to set it up for the kind of control you are talking about. Use relays triggered by the current car r/c, and switch in/out two different battery banks.

If it takes 9 1.5V batteries to get the speed you want, then one relay switches on the first 3, the second relay adds another 6. You'd neeed some fancy wiring on the relays to keep them all in series, but it wouldn't be expensive. 
_How come everyone forgets that relays have been solving these problem for 100 years. Forget all those electronic gizmos!







_


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 04/30/2009 12:14 PM
Posted By DKRickman on 04/28/2009 4:14 PM
I know this is probably a crazy idea, but...

Would it be possible (within reason, obviously) to use the left/right and forward/back inputs both for speed? I'm thinking that the steering input could be set for 1/3 power in either direction, and the forward/back input would be 2/3 power. That way you'd have 1/3, 2/3, or by combining both inputs, full power.

Is that practical? If the associated electronics would require more than about $20, it seems that the scheme would be too complex for the price, but might it be possible to form a relatively inexpensive R/C setup this way?




Despite the electrical engineers suggesting a variety of expensive ways to do it.. Yes, there is a way to set it up for the kind of control you are talking about. Use relays triggered by the current car r/c, and switch in/out two different battery banks.

If it takes 9 1.5V batteries to get the speed you want, then one relay switches on the first 3, the second relay adds another 6. You'd neeed some fancy wiring on the relays to keep them all in series, but it wouldn't be expensive. 
_How come everyone forgets that relays have been solving these problem for 100 years. Forget all those electronic gizmos!







_




It is not so much forgetting they exist, but remembering that the coil takes more current to hold the relay closed than a semiconductor switch does to maintain current flow in the controlled circuit. That extra current used to control the relay is power lost from the batteries that could have been used to extend the run time of the train.

(Side note: Hmmm... the font I am seeing now is really tiny so I don't know what it will look like when it gets displayed in the post. I just installed Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 and that is probably what changed what I am seeing now... I won't change the font size now, just in case it gets fixed when I post it... which if so, I will just live with the small font whilst I type, but if it is also tiny after posting it, I will need to experiment with settings to see if I can make it bigger... BTW: I find IE-8 to be VERY SLOW, much slower reading forums than IE-7. It also has locked up my computer a few times attempting to open multiple threads on MLS, to the point where I have pulled the AC line cord to force a restart to get control again. I ain't a happy camper right now!)


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

you can use an inline fuse for off the shelf R/C stuff. I plan to eventually purchase Del's system for one of my critters, as it is intriguing.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

remembering that the coil takes more current to hold the relay closed 


There are (a) relays with very low current draws and (b) relays that are self-latching. An old HO switch machine with a bunch of contacts is an example of the latter.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

I would agree with that. I had lots of fun playing with cheap R/C control, trying to make it safe and reliable. In the end, I must say, you get what you pay for























Posted By wchasr on 04/30/2009 8:48 AM
Can I ask a silly question? 

Back 30 years ago the cheap RC cars were on one or two and maybe 4 channels in the 27mhz or was it 49mhz range? This has not changed much right? Back then there was a LOT of interference from all sorts of things. For me making the jump to "real" R/C cars was a need for better control (better radios and less interference) and replaceable parts. 

Back 20 some years ago when folks were playing with Stomper toy conversions some folks I thought I read were playing with cheap R/C cars as well. As I recall the consesus was that while a cheap toy was OK it was a crap shoot as to the range and control and how much interference or "glitching" one might encounter? I think the recommendation in the end was it was OK to do a small simple something from these units but NOT to use this type of control in a more expensive loco that might be damaged from a radio glitch that caused it to cycle from forward to reverse several times at full power. 

So has this changed at all? I'm not sure i'd be willing to risk a high end loco to a $5, $10, or even a $20 control system. Back when I was doing R/C cars you could get a cheap two stick ground freq. R/C system for under $50 that was adequate for most folks. That was when Aristocraft made radios for R/C cars and boats and planes. Do they still do that? 

Any how I think in the end you get what you pay for especially with RC systems. 

Having said that I've got a model kit that I'm retrofitting to a cheap Walmart RC car for a rail vehicle. jsut for grins. Don't expect it anytime soon though. I can't even get to the workshop right now. My mom's crap is piled up in the way. 

Chas


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SE,

I agree with you. That is one of my very few hot-button issues with the hobby. I spent a year trying to dope out the various command/control/sounds setups, RC, IR, PWM, DCC, PMS (not really) and decided to go with plain old DC track power.

Let me state here, for purposes of correction if I'm wrong, but what one basically is getting is a TX of some sort, IR or radio, sending to an onboard receiver, to a D/A decoder, to a motor controller, and/or a sound card for multiple sounds. Is that, or is that not, correct? If I'm missing something please inform me. If I'm not, why doesn't someone just _say_ so? Like in a magazine article. To forestall the objection that 'lots of people don't know what an A/D or motor contoller is' is not an acceptable answer. Those items are very easily explained in general terms as to purpose and function w/o giving away trade secrets. 

I have spent money on books (a waste) pored over advertisements in RR magazine (a bigger waste, though I found an informative yellow-backed ad recently in a new Model RRer magazine that portrays the particular system to be user friendly,) and I finally shrugged off the whole thing. Being more than passing familiar with circuits like those, I had thought to build my own. I've decided it's not worth the small savings to do so. I'm thinking here of the basic, simple boards, wherein the whole setup, in basic-function form, is available for ~$150--price is a couple of years old.

Sitting on a phone with a rep is to me, a huge intrusion on my time and a very negative reflection on their designs and tech writing. Does 'User Friendly' ring any bells? I speak particularly of the high-dollar setups. With the basic, less expensive ones, well, one pays for what one gets.

Lastly, I can't find a system to fit my needs: simple. Forward, Stop, Backward, Stop, all with soft stops and graduated acceleration either step selectable with an onboard switch or pot-variable through a hole. Press a button to ring the bell, another to blow the whistle. Press 'em both to have a simultaneous racket. Perhaps a third button to turn the lights on and off. A steam sound triggered off the axle, with an on/off switch as described, or a dip switch. That's it. It would be nice if other sounds were addable at a later date, but not necessary, if the sound card was a straightforward replacement. Likewise an upgrade for firebox lighting. 
I'm unsure how much more simple one could ask for. I will not for a moment consider a system that I have to hook to my computer, or park on a special track, and sit with the TX and keypad and enter a hatful of numbers which I then have to remember. I don't do that anymore.

Well, if the above sounds like a rant, I apologize. I'm frustrated by the whole subject. I'm more frustrated by the magazines which avoid it like the plague (or Swine Flu, to stay current) when they could do articles on it. I look askance at manufacturers who don't or can't send me a coherent technical answer to allow an informed decision. All I get is, "Ours is the best. We support it fully. Lowest power consumption in the industry--you actually have to _discharge the batteries_ once a week! Expandable to infinity--with the newer cards, just send your engine to us! Our gaurantee is the best in the business. Over 1,000 programmable points to fit every engine in your roster! Buy now!" 

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

I looked into RC car controllers a year ago. My standards are very undemanding. But I lack the type of equipment it would take to figure out what's really going on, a scope and a sensitive VTVM. (I know, 'cut 'n try') but I'm a shade aged for that kind of excitement. Anyway, been there, done that. Don't want to, no mo'.

I sincerely hope you figure out how to make it work, you've got lots of good suggestions so far. Also at the time I was doping this stuff out for myself, I didn't realize the range of talent available on this board. (I wasn't even ON this board, come to think of it!) I for one think it's not only possible, but practical. I'm not sure the 'glitching' problems are serious--look at power failures from trackwork.

No one mentioned shielding to help with the EMI. Think about a copper mesh screen around the circuit board, and grounded. Might be amazed at how much noise that gets rid of. From another post, I find that noise is taken care of by software.

I know those cars work, work well, and work for a long time. I know train controller systems are a source of howls of anguish.

Go for it!

Les

(And keep us informed!!!)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 
With respect. I don't recall you ever sending me any questions along the lines you list. 

If you had you would have received a detailed answer with links leading you to my RCS/EVO systems. 
In my range there are basic models that will accomplish what you want to do, and at very moderate cost.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/02/2009 5:02 PM
Les, 
With respect. I don't recall you ever sending me any questions along the lines you list. 

If you had you would have received a detailed answer with links leading you to my RCS/EVO systems. 
In my range there are basic models that will accomplish what you want to do, and at very moderate cost.








Tony,
With equal respect. I in fact did send you an email asking for a description of the boards, and a few technical questions pertaining to hooking them up to make them work. You had previously detailed exactly the type of components (in the circuit board sense) I could buy on the open market and marry together, which I thought was exceeding kind. This was when I was on the GR board. I thought about it for a few weeks and posted you asking for a description of the complete setup of your basic system, on the sure bet that they would all be certain to interface, though likely more expensive. I never got an answer. I dropped it. Back then everything was new and I got onto another range of subjects.

Also, and to be fair, I want to set this out in its own paragraph: my posting was near Christmastime, and I dismissed the lack of answer as a seasonal issue. I am not offended, and would never advise anyone not to do business with you.

I would like you to reread my post, wherein I listed the circuits I believe to be contained in a basic commercial system, and tell me if I am mistaken, and if so, why and where. If I am in fact correct, please do me a favor and verify same.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

Now that I've had a supper break and a little time to think, there's one problem I encountered: the size of the circuit boards in the used RC trucks I was buying at garage sales wouldn't begin to fit in any G ga engine I propose to own.

I hit on the notion of sawing them into suitable pieces, and soldering wire jumpers from land to land. You may be finding much smaller boards, now. The only difficulty you would encounter is *if *the circuit boards are multilayer--that is, have copper tracks on each side and in the middle. I seriously doubt that is the case, but I never sawed one in pieces to find out.

The procedure for reconnecting after surgury is pretty obvious, but if it isn't I can tell you: just take a photograph (or scan or pix and store it on your computer to print off later) then mark the lands before you saw, on each side of the kerf, which you thoughtfully indicated beforehand, with a magic marker. The other, original wires which might connect dissected pieces should be color coded, but if you've got duplicates, tape 'em and mark 'em A/A or 1/1 or whatever, THEN cut them.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:27 PM
Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work. 





While you are indeed correct, I think the days of building RF/IF circuits with discrete components are long gone. It's all in a chip.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:27 PM
Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work. 









Good point. Wonder if it really would? I wonder further if it's possible to get a schematic of one of the more expensive ones? If one had that, I think one would have a pretty solid RC system for at least two engines. (27 & 49 mhz)


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/02/2009 6:30 PM
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:27 PM
Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work. 





While you are indeed correct, I think the days of building RF/IF circuits with discrete components are long gone. It's all in a chip. 









Glad you weighed in. "All in a chip"? Coils, too? Or are they making solid-state tuned circuits now? If so, I am indeed dated. Anyway, what about the extra wires working to detune the circuits? Maybe? Probable? Certain? Don't know?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 05/02/2009 6:39 PM
Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/02/2009 6:30 PM
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:27 PM
Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work. 





While you are indeed correct, I think the days of building RF/IF circuits with discrete components are long gone. It's all in a chip. 









Glad you weighed in. "All in a chip"? Coils, too? Or are they making solid-state tuned circuits now? If so, I am indeed dated. Anyway, what about the extra wires working to detune the circuits? Maybe? Probable? Certain? Don't know? 




I'd go along with any of those answers!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

Not knowing what your full name or E mail address is I cannot go back through my correspondence to check and see what I have replied to.

For some time I have had a lot of trouble with my replies to E mails that have come from forums such as this, being bounced because my usual broadband ISP has in the past been sending Spam.

I have reread the posting above and don't really understand what it is you want to do.
It seems you want to take a junky very low cost stick R/C used with On -Off / Right - Left R/C cars and try and get it to work a Large Scale loco.
For a number of reasons I doubt you will have much success.

Depending on what sort of power you need, you can use regular lowcost 2 x stick R/C like Futaba or Hi-Tec (US$40) and marrry it to an EVO-B2/5 (US$60-70). You will have a reliable control system with excellent range and *no glitching*.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/02/2009 7:09 PM
Les,

Not knowing what your full name or E mail address is I cannot go back through my correspondence to check and see what I have replied to.

For some time I have had a lot of trouble with my replies to E mails that have come from forums such as this, being bounced because my usual broadband ISP has in the past been sending Spam.

I have reread the posting above and don't really understand what it is you want to do.
It seems you want to take a junky very low cost stick R/C used with On -Off / Right - Left R/C cars and try and get it to work a Large Scale loco.
For a number of reasons I doubt you will have much success.

/// You didn't read the first post you responded to: here's the relevant statement I asked you to comment on:

...Let me state here, for purposes of correction if I'm wrong, but what one basically is getting is a TX of some sort, IR or radio, sending to an onboard receiver, to a D/A decoder, to a motor controller, and/or a sound card for multiple sounds. Is that, or is that not, correct? If I'm missing something please inform me. If I'm not, why doesn't someone just _say_ so? Like in a magazine article. To forestall the objection that 'lots of people don't know what an A/D or motor contoller is' is not an acceptable answer. Those items are very easily explained in general terms as to purpose and function w/o giving away trade secrets.... 


/// This is from a somewhat earlier post. I dropped the RC car line of investigation about a year ago.

Depending on what sort of power you need, you can use regular lowcost 2 x stick R/C like Futaba or Hi-Tec (US$40) and marrry it to an EVO-B2/5 (US$60-70). You will have a reliable control system with excellent range and *no glitching*.

/// If memory serves this is essentially what you told me a couple of years ago. My question to you was, what do *you* sell that will accomplish the same thing, what's in it, and I will assume interfacing between boards is a non-issue, since the system would be from a single source, and for how much? The essence of the discussion then in hand is contained in the quoted statement above. I was trying to determine what--in terms of circuitry--I was getting.

/// I am not put out in the least. I recognize that email is fallible. After exhaustive, expensive investigation that revealed nothing, I decided to stay with a known quantity, DC track power.

Les


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:56 PM
Posted By Les on 05/02/2009 6:39 PM
Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/02/2009 6:30 PM
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/02/2009 6:27 PM
Chopping up a PC card and soldering jumpers to recreate the circuit that is used in the audio frequency range could work, but if it is part of the RF/IF sections you probably will detune the tuned resonate circuits such that it would no longer work. 





While you are indeed correct, I think the days of building RF/IF circuits with discrete components are long gone. It's all in a chip. 









Glad you weighed in. "All in a chip"? Coils, too? Or are they making solid-state tuned circuits now? If so, I am indeed dated. Anyway, what about the extra wires working to detune the circuits? Maybe? Probable? Certain? Don't know? 




I'd go along with any of those answers!


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## Guest (May 2, 2009)

Les, 

to me it is clear, why you can not get an exact answer from the producers. especially not in an public forum. 
if they gave out their circuits and partslist, then everybody could make their own. 

as it is now, everybody has to buy at least one, before copying.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Korm,

That's absolutely right. But I never asked for parts lists and schematics. I asked for the type of circuit. After much research I boiled it down to a few simple ones all married together so they work well. (That's where the skill comes in.) It's the dead silence on 'functions' that annoys the snot out of me. I wanted to know, in general terms, how they achieved the results we pay for. No one will say. Perhaps I'm cynical, but that makes me suspect it's all pretty simple, once explained.

It's like asking, "What makes the engine go faster?" And the car man says, "Just press on that narrow pedal and don't worry about it."

In my opinion, it's not worth scrounging up the parts and whatnot to build a basic system. It certainly isn't worth it to me to learn to program a PicAxe to get what I want.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les. I think I have answered your questions. 

I assume you know that regular stick type R/C systems consist of a handheld transmitter and a small receiver (RX) that goes inside the loco. 
To that you simply plug in the appropriate EVO-B2 or EVO-B5 and connect up a battery supply. Two wires then go from the ESC to the motor(s). 
That is it. No other wiring for a basic installation. 
If you want constant brightness directional lighting and/or triggerable sound, extra components may be needed.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/02/2009 8:49 PM
Les. I think I have answered your questions. 

I assume you know that regular stick type R/C systems consist of a handheld transmitter and a small receiver (RX) that goes inside the loco. 
To that you simply plug in the appropriate EVO-B2 or EVO-B5 and connect up a battery supply. Two wires then go from the ESC to the motor(s). 
That is it. No other wiring for a basic installation. 
If you want constant brightness directional lighting and/or triggerable sound, extra components may be needed. 


Tony, please elucidate me on this...

I have a transmitter - receiver pair. My receiver has 4 sockets on it. One for "Power In" and 3 places to plug in a single Servo motor each. I have an electric motor on my locomotive with two wires and a power source with two wires.

That is "my" starting point... beyond that I only see some "magic" bits in the middle that make no technological sense to me... ("Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur Clarke.)

You say to "plug in the appropriate EVO-82 or EVO-85 and connect up a battery"... Then "connect two wires from the ESC to the motor."

What is an EVO-8x?

Where does it/they connect to the receiver? I really do not understand the connection from a receiver to a servo, so I certainly do not understand what this has to do with an EVO-8x.

What is an ESC? How does it interact with the receiver and/or EVO-8x? Is it part of an EVO-8x or a separate part or something in the locomotive that I don't know about?

Where does the power source connect? EVO-8x or ESC? Or both? Neither?

Is my assumption that "my" receiver is the same as all other R/C receivers in error here? Is the receiver you mention different somehow... like maybe it has an output port that is not designed to connect to a servo?

I know you know this stuff, but sorry, to the complete novice (i.e.: THIS "complete nincompoop" what am typing this text), you described an incantation involving two frogs and an eye of newt.

Thanks.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles. 

The ESC is actually EVO-B2 or EVO-B5. One is a 2 amp ESC, the other is a 5 amp ESC. 
The appropriate one for the current required fits between the two wires from the battery supply and the two wires going to the motor(s). 
There is a 3 wire cable going from the ESC with a plug on one end that plugs into the socket on the receiver that matches the appropriate stick on the TX with a backwards and forwards movement. Usually the left hand stick, channel # 2. 
Moving the stick backwards and forwards controls both direction and speed. Not digitally proportionally, but rather it sets the speed and the stick is then let go. The EVO ESC remembers the set speed. 
The RH stick, channel # 1 can provide sound triggers with the system that is designed for that purpose. 

Might I suggest you read the system overview at http://www.evo-rc.net/home.php?page_id=3001061057 

There are clickable links at the bottom of that page that will take you to the particular system page where you will also find clickable links for pdf files of the instructions.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All,

Just out of curiosity, has anyone taken a Bachmann Big Hauler (or Lionel Polar Express) and take the RC unit out of those and put them in other engines? I have seen the Bachmann's at garage sales and on Craigslist for $35-50 and the same for the Polar express. 

Rich


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I suppose you could easy enough, but there's a very good reason Bachmann abandoned the R/C in favor of track power. You have a choice--spend your money on R/C or on replacement gears. 

Later, 

K


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/02/2009 8:49 PM
Les. I think I have answered your questions. 

/// No, you haven't, but that's okay. I refer to the statement I recopied from a previous post, which you have not addressed, the one wherein I describe the circuit types I believe to make up the controller systems being offered to the hobby. It's obvious you're not going to, so it's best I drop it.

I assume you know that regular stick type R/C systems consist of a handheld transmitter and a small receiver (RX) that goes inside the loco.


/// No, I didn't know the receiver was included. Following yours and someone else's advice, I went to an RC hobby shop that dealt in all things RC save RR. There was a kid standing behind the counter, bs-ing with a buddy. After a long moment I said, "I need a TX/RX generic setup. I understand you sell them." He just stared at me, as if he'd heard Greek. "What kinda car you got?" I said, "No car. I want a setup for a large scale train." Ans: "We don't sell trains. We sell airplanes and race cars." I said, "Yes, but what I need is a module, as I understand it. Ans: "What kinda car you wantin' it for?" I repeated the train bit. Ans:"We don't sell trains here." I left.

So I went to the web and logged onto a couple of RC sites. I asked a few technical questions. The replies I got could be summed up with: "Hey, go to your hobby store/Internet outlet and they'll sell you what you want for your car or airplane." All in all, with due consideration to the RC car and flight guys on this board, that whole section of the hobby could be summed up as, "Take your money to the counter. Take your old parts. They'll know what you need." So, no, I never got to find out that a receiver came with a transmitter in the same package.

To that you simply plug in the appropriate EVO-B2 or EVO-B5 and connect up a battery supply. Two wires then go from the ESC to the motor(s). 
That is it. No other wiring for a basic installation. 
If you want constant brightness directional lighting and/or triggerable sound, extra components may be needed. 

/// Care to specify what extra components, price of same, and how and where they hook up and to what? By 'components' I'll assume you mean circuit boards, not discrete parts.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 05/03/2009 12:47 AM
I suppose you could easy enough, but there's a very good reason Bachmann abandoned the R/C in favor of track power. You have a choice--spend your money on R/C or on replacement gears. 

Later, 

K








And what would that reason for dropping R/C be?

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semper,

ESC = Electronic Speed Contol(ler). It regulates the speed of the motor by sampling an input from the decoder, which in turn gets its info from the RX. How that is actually accomplished, I don't know. It could also be that the RX and D/A (receiver and decoder) are in one circuit. That is not determinable. The ESC also controls direction, but it is the D/A that controls accel and decel, the means vary.

EVO-8 is an 8 amp ESC, it will handle an 8 amp motor draw. I think. Tony should be able to clarify this. I think he offers a 2A for small Porter-types, and an 8 amp for larger units, like big diesels and the like. The battery line about has to connect to the ESC, or it wouldn't have much to work with. It's entirely possible--even likely, the power is fed thru the D/A converter first, then to the ESC. Not specified.

I too am entirely confused about what module hooks to what, and how. A block diagram would solve this problem.

Something like this:

V
I
I = Antenna ---> RX ---> D/A (digital to analog) decoder---> ESC (Electronic Speed Control)---> train's motor.

There would have to be a battery lead to power the circuitry, but it is unspecified if the RX, D/A & ESC are on one board or several.

If on one board, which seems most logical, size might be an issue for small locos. I don't know. I didn't see any dims specified. Nowhere is shielding for the cables mentioned, a prime source of EMI. (ElectroMagnetic Interference) though there is a statement to the effect that the 'noise' (EMI) is suppressed by software, probably meaning digital data bursts of a known pulse count and falling between a high and low value, say between 3 & 5 Vdc for a guess. That keeps stray 'spikes' from gumming up the works. How well it works is probably a function of the price.

Your question of whether your receiver is the same as all other RC receivers is a good one. All I can find are statements pertaining to 'National R/C Standards'. (_paraphrase)_ Given the rigid standards found in in the Garden Train world (a little irony, there) I'd be wondering that, too. Asking such things at a hobby shop will get you no solid answers. Everything is qualified by other factors. I think this is because there're a lot of wildcard systems out there, both early and late technologies, and hobby and toys. As an example, we have Model Railroading. But there are lotsa toy trains out there that not only give instant cheer to small children, but serve as kitbash fodder for the Model Railroaders.

I want to focus on RRing, not the electronics that make the wonderful things happen. But I also want to know how they work. The level of explanations out there are like: "How does the motor make a car move?" Ans: "It goes, and turns the wheels, which make the car move."

Fortunately for the human race there are guys out there who are willing to tear these things apart and figure out how they work. I'm not into that, anymore. I used to dope stuff like that out--mechanics, on my own, electronics via help from handy engineers at work.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les. 
Low cost 2 x stick AM R/C packages start at about US$40 from Tower Hobbies. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=JAA 
They usually come with two servos as well as the receiver. The servos are not needed so they should be able to be sold and reduce the cost even further. Neither is the battery harness as all the EVO ESC's provide the 5 volt supply necessary for the R/C receiver to actually receive the signals. 
Most regular car, boat and plane hobby shops know zip about Large Scale trains. So asking questions here (or other LS forums) is just about the only way you can find out about your options. 
I have a Beginners page (with a glossary of R/C terms used) at the EVO website. There is also a system overview page as well. 
Pretty well all the stick type R/C systems work exactly the same way with regards to the sticks moving the servos. ESC's suitable for LS trains interpret those servo signals and convert them into motor control and sound system functions. 

If using such low cost AM R/C's appeals to you as the medium by which you can control your battery powered trains I would suggest you read the information I provide at the website. 

As to inside the loco. Unless the installation is to be extremely basic nothing is quite as simple as you might hope it to be. 
If you have AristoCraft locos you have three option's of powering them. 
1. Batteries and R/C in a trail car plugged into the pigtails on the loco. 
2. Install the R/C in the loco and power it with batteries in a trail car. 
3. Install everything in the loco. Depending on the loco this can get complicated. 

What you need for controlling the direction of constant brightness lights and sound triggers depends on what sort of locos you have and what sort of sound system you might fit. 

Phoenix for example make two types of sound systems. Each has to be wired slightly differently. 

I hope that helps.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Les - Asking a teenager at a hobby shop about R/C for garden railroading won't get you very far, as you found out. I think most of your questions would be answered if you were to go to either *Tony's website* or *mine * (or whomever's) and read the operating manuals for the various controls offered. Yes, you have to do a bit of homework. But I will try to give you an overview ...


The basic blocks of a battery power R/C system are: Battery, power input circuit, control board, and a radio. The battery pack is sized to provided the proper voltage, which determines the top speed for your locomotive. The mah (milli-amp-hour) rating of the battery determines how long the loco will run on a single charge. The power input circuit is simply a power on/off switch and may also include a charging jack for charging the battery pack on-board the loco. This requires some wiring, and can be simplified by purchasing my battery conversion module or a BIK board from Tony. The control board takes commands from the radio receiver, decides what do with the commands, and then provides the proper drive to the motor of the loco. All radio control systems consist of a radio; a transmitter and a receiver. In most cases the transmitter is specifically designed for trains. Sometimes the receiver is a separate module, and sometimes it is integrated into the control board. You hold the transmitter in your hand and mount the receiver and all else in the loco, tender, or trailing car.


More specific to the control boards, they basically consist of a regulated power supply, a micro-controller, a motor drive circuit (usually PWM (Pulse Width Modulation)), and perhaps some opto-isolated outputs to interface with a sound board. And of course a bunch of software to make it all work together. Your reference to D/A and A/D controllers is only vaguely correct. The outputs of the receiver are "Digital Proportional" signals. These are pulses that vary in length, depending on the position of the stick. The micro-controller has to measure the length of the pulse and decide what to do with it. The D/A part is really the PWM output. These are pulses at full battery voltage applied to the motor in a varying duty cycle. The motor averages these pulses, and acts just like it was a DC (direct current) voltage. The interface circuitry is all pretty simple. The key is in the software to make it all work as desired. 


In the case of simple 2-stick hobby radio type R/C systems such as Tony's EVO and my RailBoss R/C, the radio system of choice is the Futaba Attack 2-DR p/n FUTJ25. For 40-50 bucks you will get a 75MHZ transmitter, receiver, and two servos. You don't need the servos unless you plan on flying airplanes with it. Ask the hobby shop to buy them back from you. You should be able to get $10. Now you have a $30 radio investment. For another 60-75 bucks you can purchase the control board. Price of your battery pack depends on size and type you need, but for another 30-75 bucks you will be set there. So, for around $150 you should have all the parts you need. Wiring diagrams, installation instructions, and programming instructions are all available in the suppliers manuals. Some knowledge of basic wiring techniques and soldering are a plus, but it isn't that difficult.


If you have any more questions specific to my control system, feel free to contact me offline.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Del,

Now _there_ (your reply) is what I call succint and comprehensive.

And you did address my original statement about the composition of the circuits. So I was only 'vaguely correct' concerning the D/A. Fine by me. Now I know _why_ I was. But at least I had the gist of it. This makes me happy to learn in broad detail what I had to piece together.

You've done a good thing for others wondering 'how the heck to these things work'.

Thanks.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Del, thanks for putting up the link but would you kindly make the link go to the correct EVO website. http://www.evo-rc.net/ 

Les. Just to elaborate on the digital proportional signal coming from the TX to the RX. Unfortunately with AM R/C that signal is often corrupted by atmospheric and electrical interference (RFI), such that the servos "twitch" backwards and forwards which is commonly called "glitching" . If that same signal is applied to directly controlling the speed of the motors, the "glitching" can have devastating effects on the loco gearing. 
The secret to solving that problem was converting the signal to a momentum type control. Something I first did in 1988 with hardware. 
Nowadays that is all done in software by analysing the incoming signals with the micro software and ignoring the unwanted spurious signals. 

The latest Spektrum 2.4 Ghz R/C does not have that problem so sooner or later expect to see full digital proportional control from those stick type radios.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Les on 05/03/2009 6:27 PM
Del,

Now _there_ (your reply) is what I call succint and comprehensive.

And you did address my original statement about the composition of the circuits. So I was only 'vaguely correct' concerning the D/A. Fine by me. Now I know _why_ I was. But at least I had the gist of it. This makes me happy to learn in broad detail what I had to piece together.

You've done a good thing for others wondering 'how the heck to these things work'.

Thanks.

Les





Just about every aspect of this hobby is confusing at first. Lots of decisions to be made. Lots to learn.


For those interested in the basics of battery power, I will be presenting a clinic at the Denver convention; "Simple Low Cost Battery Power". No hecklers please !


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I also thank you both for your answers. I was sure there was something shorter that could get the gist of what is going on without multiple pages of random undefined acronyms and proprietary part numbers of undefined components.

Les:

I use R/C to control my Live Steam locomotives and I did get fairly good help at the local Hobby Shop and it was from one of them thar kids... I think it helped that the owner was there and had sent him to meet me at the R/C counter!









I still had some problems though and maybe my experience will help you to congeal a bit more of it all... I needed three channels to control three different servos (actually I wanted many more, but, well, you'll understand as I go on).

Basically (from my viewpoint) there are two systems... R/C for airplanes and R/C for ground vehicles (cars). The difference is two fold... 

1) the frequency used is government mandated... you cannot use a frequency designated for airplanes on a ground based vehicle and vice versa.

2) due to market sizes the cost of an airplane "set" (transmitter with all the knobs and levers, and the receiver and servos) is quite cheap, but the cost of a car (ground) controller is very high and with fewer controls (knobs and levers) on the transmitter.

The Hobby Shop would not even talk about an airplane R/C because of the law. So I was stuck buying a ground system and that stuck me with two things... high cost and low functionality. I knew I wanted to control three functions, at a minimum... Throttle, Reverser and Blower, so I had to purchase one of the MOST expensive Car R/C sets to get that third servo control (the cheaper sets [still more expensive than an Air R/C set] would only control two servos).

The thing I didn't know, and they did not volunteer the knowledge, is that the manufacturers will take an airplane transmitter/receiver and convert it to use the ground frequencies FOR FREE!... I think it might even be done by the end user as it should be just changing the crystals... a simple unplug one and plug in the other in both the Transmitter and the Receiver.

The Hobby Shop was not in a position to tell me whether the servos that came with the "set" would suffice to control the levers in my Live Steam loco and I can accept that (they had never had someone walk in with an Aster Mike and ask). I also decided that the two servos that came with the set were too large to fit in the place I wanted to put them in the loco, so I purchased two more of a smaller size (and higher torque_ and needed to get a third one of higher torque for the third function of the set I purchased. All of which added even more dollars to the cost.

They did not offer to reduce the cost of the set if I left the two servos that came with the set at the store (no trade-in).

To some extent, I think I was suckered... but I also happen to really like the Car controller to control my Live Steam locos... Trigger on the controller (throttle for a car) controls the throttle on the steamer, Steering wheel on the controller (obviously for steering the car) controls the Reverser lever on the steamer and that allows me to control the "Cut off" of the engine just like on a real steam engine. The controller has one small knob on the side (I have no idea what it was supposed to control on a R/C car) I use to control the servo connected to the Blower valve on the steamer so I can turn it on to keep the draft over the fire going if I have to stop the engine (such that the exhaust is not providing draft). I can control my loco with just one hand... index finger on the trigger and thumb on the edge of the steering wheel to control direction and cut-off. WORKS REALLY WELL!









BUT, the price difference between the Car R/C and an Airplane R/C was about $150.00... OUCH!







Not counting the cost of the additional/replacement servos.

I would like to have had more control channels in the set so I could add whistle control and maybe some other things, but Car (ground) R/C systems don't come with more than three channels, whereas even the cheapest Airplane R/C sytems often come with 6 or 8 and expensive (still cheaper than what I bought) come with many more.

If I had the chance to do it over again knowing what I know now, I would buy the exact same thing... and I did!... I have two identical Mikes and I like the Car type controller so I bought the same set to control the second Mike when I got it assembled. I still had to purchase two smaller servos but saved a bit of money by not buying the higher torque ones and I did not have to buy a third servo, I just used one of the two that came with the set that were too large to fit in the cab area.


I do get "glitching" in this system, but it is not a big problem since I don't have gears to grind up like the sparkies do. I deliberately throw it into reverse sometimes as "brakes"... wheeee... watch them drivers spin backwards!









I do notice a sudden slowing of the engine sometimes, but it is of extremely short duration (fraction of a second). I also sometimes note that the blower will come on, but again it is always just a short hiss and then the system recovers without problem. Still, I'd like to eliminate glitching.

I had a bigger problem with the kid down the street on the same frequency as I was and his signal drove one of my servos beyond the mechanical limit and BROKE it.









Since I'd like to eliminate glitching and still want to "add" whistle control, that is why I am avidly reading these threads on R/C even though they are aimed at the sparkie engine. I am, at this point, fairly convinced that the place where the Proprietary ACRONYM plugs into the Receiver is the same as where my servo wires plug in... i.e.: the receivers are the same components. But I am still gathering info in an attempt to convert the "Eye of Newt" to a technological understanding.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles. 

The 2.4 Khz Spektrum (and the same frequency equipment from other brands) is legal to use both on the ground and in the air. 

After reading through all the information you provide above I think I have worked out that what you need is an electronic trigger to activate some sort of electronic device, or devices, in your Live Steam engines. 

I make the #2-M-Fv2 which provides two transistor outputs. One either side of neutral.










It simply plugs into any available RX socket appropriate to the centre off movement of a stick.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I got help I needed from RC boat/plane enthusiasts who were willing and able to walk me thru the steps. I'm thinking that if there are some kids nearby who play with robotics or R/C, one might be able to glean some knowledge and help as they seem like a nice bunch. 

I've visited some picax and other forum sites, but it seems like most of the folks on those sites are already pretty experienced. The advice they gave for really learning about these sort of things; which are daunting but interesting to me, would be to purchase a basic kit commercially to see what is possible and what is not and see how these can be applied to trains; which they usually are not. 

Remember, to develop DCC, DCS, TMCC, critter control and so on, someone somewhere had to learn about these things. 

It would be very nice to see posts showing a step by step way someone programmed a chip for train running or to turn track electric in place systems to R/C. It would be a fun learning experience.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

I remember asking some of these same questions when I got started, thinking I could buck the system and do it on the cheep.....expended a ton of energy to only realize it was smarter to purchase a controller that was made for our trains...plain and simple, it's what these guys do, and they do it well....and provide great service to their customer base to boot! 

been there, done that, bought the EVO..... 

cale


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

never mind


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Les, 

Low power 27mHz (and later 49mHz) was prone to interference from almost anything (CB radios, garage door openers, neighbor's R/C toys, butterfly sneezes). Range was also limited. I used to set the speed, then set the transmitter in the car behind the loco, just to keep things in range. We all know how robust those early Bachmann drive trains were , and the rapid starts, stops, and almost instant changes in direction sure didn't help matters much. They certainly made a big enough splash with the set, but the R/C was anything but quality. 

Later, 

K


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

There are also some cheaper 2.4 systems out there. Because they're 2.4 you can use "air" systems for ground stuff. Check the radio forum in RCGroups- http://www.rcgroups.com/radios-135/. While I personally wouldn't use them in my planes I'd give them a shot in surface stuff. -http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8338 
Dave


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 05/04/2009 7:43 AM
I got help I needed from RC boat/plane enthusiasts who were willing and able to walk me thru the steps. I'm thinking that if there are some kids nearby who play with robotics or R/C, one might be able to glean some knowledge and help as they seem like a nice bunch. 

/// Weeelll, as it turns out I do know a few of those, but they talk in 'code' around me--an old man. I don't understand what they're saying, though most of it seems to refer to some 'funny' TV show, like South Park, which I consider vulgar. Also, when I grew up, if I wanted something I had to make it. I know that sounds corny and I'm not even going to bother to defend myself. I'll give you _one _'fr-instance': Today, kids get driven down to the swimming pool. (Just like I'd do for my granddaughter, lest some pervert grab her on the way. When I was a kid, perverts were injured severly, if not killed) if discovered around kids. The way I (we, my buddy in the 7th grade from down the road--he'd come over about 3 o'clock (1500hrs) and, being bigger, would crank the JD LA (a type of small farm tractor) after it failed to start from rolling down the hill. (Neither of us knew about priming carbs, and it was an uptake Marvel, anyway.) He'd crank the **** out of that 2-cyl, with a hand crank, until it decided to fire off. Ho, then we climbed on and bounced down to the swimming hole. I drove, he sat on the fender. Once, he got all the skin knocked off his knuckles when the rear wheel fell off. That's another story. We'd strip down and jump in the creek with 15' deep holes you could see to the bottom of with a washcloth and a bar of soap. The kind that didn't float, because the kind that did smelled like a _gurrll's _soap, and we were havin' none of that. Anyway, diving down to get it was just fine. That was our entertainment and afternoon bath. So you see, it's difficult for me to find common ground with today's young 'uns.

I've visited some picax and other forum sites, but it seems like most of the folks on those sites are already pretty experienced. The advice they gave for really learning about these sort of things; which are daunting but interesting to me, would be to purchase a basic kit commercially to see what is possible and what is not and see how these can be applied to trains; which they usually are not. 

/// Most of the folks on a Picaxe site are either engineers by degree, or on their way to being so, or _very_ dedicated non-professionals. I am still in contact with a PE, EE, from MAC, (Professional Engineer--i.e. certified; Electrical Engineer, from McDonnell Aircraft Corp) who advised me that a PicAxe was the best way to go way early on, and one for my needs could be had for $25. The problem there was, I am not about to learn coding, again, and he did not care to do it for me. I did that in 1973, (machine language) and I won't do it again. I don't want to. 

Remember, to develop DCC, DCS, TMCC, critter control and so on, someone somewhere had to learn about these things. 

///Yes, they did. And most train systems, when boiled down to their individual circuitry, are able to be cut 'n pasted via Internet sources into a working system, which is one thing that seems to scare the stuffin's out of commercial producers. I am privately (privately? on a board? Gimmie a break!) too old to fool with all the cutting and trying, but it is possible. I'd encourge the young--who don't need encouragement--to try what Big John is doing, that is, R/C car boards as adaptable. Young folks have what I've lost: the willingness to try. So, they pay $$ for a type of education that is priceless: DIY, win or lose. (Except, most, thank the Lord, don't have to count money against the end of the month, because they're young and have the time to make back anything that they might squander in search of their goal, so they don't lose anything, over the long haul. 

It would be very nice to see posts showing a step by step way someone programmed a chip for train running or to turn track electric in place systems to R/C. It would be a fun learning experience.

/// I seriously doubt it will happen on this board. Not because of proprietary interests, but because it's not particularly easy. It d*mned sure won't happen in magazines, because for a young guy with dreams of the possible, anything is possible and the advertisers in the mags know it. How do you think they got where they are?

Les

Encouraging: GO FOR IT!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/03/2009 6:46 PM
Del, thanks for putting up the link but would you kindly make the link go to the correct EVO website. http://www.evo-rc.net/ 

Les. Just to elaborate on the digital proportional signal coming from the TX to the RX.


///I'm very glad to learn some more. I only know of 'digital TX' (TX, i.e. 'transmission') as octal/hex/base16 'data bursts', modulation not specified. Now of course, there's 128-bit, and that's probably old information.


Unfortunately with AM R/C that signal is often corrupted by atmospheric and electrical interference (RFI), such that the servos "twitch" backwards and forwards which is commonly called "glitching".

///Yes, an old, old problem dating back before TRF. (Tuned Radio Frequency.) But with digital pulse-counts, I can't understand why it'd matter, since all advertisers emphasize 'software filtered' (not in precisely in those terms). But I am an old machinist, not an electrical engineer. The suspicion I harbor (for the sake of the young folk reading this) is why a true 'pulse count' would be interfered with, given sufficient programming, which is also often advertised. Amplitude Modulation (AM) of the digital signal might account for this. But if an advertisement is so devised as to subtly confuse 'Digital TX' with 'PWM' (Pulse With Modulation) then the problem becomes clearer.


If that same signal is applied to directly controlling the speed of the motors, the "glitching" can have devastating effects on the loco gearing.


/// If that is so, and I have every reason to believe it is, I'd look askance at the lack of buffering (via programming or other means from the decoder (the part that translates the operator's wish, via the RX (receiver).

The secret to solving that problem was converting the signal to a momentum type control.

///By 'momentum control' I take it to mean a graduated rise/fall (filtered) input voltage as seen from the motor's perspective. (Or, more acutely, from the fragile gear train's perspective.) This seems an excellent compromise over FM (frequency modulation) of the transmitted signal. Probably even better, for the purpose.

///This is not the place to cast aspersions on the fragile gears found in big G gauge locos, as compared to the rugged gears of Lionel, Gilbert, and others of yesteryear. Yet I do take leave to do so.

Something I first did in 1988 with hardware. 

/// A tactic that is still possible, but ignored. I don't know why and would be interested in finding out, for curiousity's sake. For my part, returning to my mechanical roots, I intend to create my own gear trains AND a flywheel. A huge one. After all, once a few gears are shed, or a cheap motor or two burns up, one can conclude to lighten the spinning mass.

Nowadays that is all done in software by analysing the incoming signals with the micro software and ignoring the unwanted spurious signals.

/// My lack of electronics education causes me to wonder why. At present, I am assuming a paucity of software or extra circuit capability. But in all fairness, the prices of your 'my-kinda' (i.e. low cost) offerings are nothing to scoff at. To illustrate: my locos will be built from hand, small, not fragile (I've _never_ been accused of underbuilding--the educated cynics have said, 'from lack of education'.) And if a gear shears, well, the next one sure won't. And I cannot emphasize enough that 'entry level' RC systems are a vast boon to the beginner. If you think for a minute that a guy like me will lay out $1k for an Airwire, do relax. That day will not come, so far as I can see. (Old guys learn never to say 'never' w/o qualification.) 

The latest Spektrum 2.4 Ghz R/C does not have that problem so sooner or later expect to see full digital proportional control from those stick type radios.

/// I do dimly recognize the difficulties manufacturers for the hobby face. As a Dam' Good Machinist (DGM--see Steve, I read--and agree with your post!--but don't tell anybody) I would not for a moment consider building transmissions for locos, of which there is a dire need, if I can go by the posts, on a commercial basis. Nope, not for any price. And I know how. You and Del are doing a serious service to the hobby.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Del:

"Just about every aspect of this hobby is confusing at first. Lots of decisions to be made. Lots to learn."

Yes, it is. And I make bold to say that that's what separates the men from the boys.

But folks like you and the Aussie--Sorry, I suffer from CRS (Can't Remember Sh*t) try to make it understandable to anyone who cares to put out the effort to educate himself.

Carried to whatever degree one wants, from RTR to turning one's own wheels, this hobby is as complex as far as one wants to go. I wandered off into seeing if I could build my own remote control system and discovered I didn't want to. You and Tony ('The Aussie', above--see how CRS comes and goes? ) plus some serious web-surfing have convinced me I don't want to build my own speed controller.

You want to talk about 'confusion'? Me 'n G scale. Thanks for your technical insights.

Les


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

OK I'm convinced it is not worth the trouble to try to turn a $10 set of RC cars into two RC control systems for my engines. I just gave the cars to my neighbor's 5 year old to play with. He is having a ball in his driveway. I am going to put both the minning engine and trolly on track power with a reversing circut. The more I thought about it I do not want to stand there and manually run a mining engine in and out of a tunnel or a tolley back and forth anyway. 

John


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les. 

Just to remind you; 
I am not an Aussie. I just live here. I am still a Brit. 

Because of the vagaries of the way posts are made on this forum I have a great deal of trouble understanding what it is you are on about. 
The original questions and the subsequent answers are all mixed in together that make it very hard to decipher. 
My apologies if I am unable to give answers that you in turn understand.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semp,
 
Thank you for your input(s). I do believe they helped get the others past my often 'cold' manner of defining problem areas. I belive you've helped a goodly number on the board.
 
I will not, at present, go to remote in any manner, because I don't understand it fully and see no great problem with block control, which I feel comfortable with.
 
If you recall one of my earlier posts, I mentioned an ad in the latest MR magazine, backgrounded in yellow. THAT is the kind of ad that appeals to me. First, because I was a tech writer and can see past the prose, but most important, because it made me _feel very comfortable and trusting. _Now I tell you, as an ex-techwriter, whoever wrote that was very good at his trade. (I can also tell you he was underpaid.)
 
Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Tony,

Where you say "Just to elaborate on the digital proportional signal coming from the TX to the RX. Unfortunately with AM R/C that signal is often corrupted..."

I am from an avionics (military) background. By way of explanation to others who might be following this post, I never considered AM (audio modulation) in connection with digital transmissions.

To me, 'digital proportional' meant 'bit count/unit of time'. i.e. data bursts. Or 'packaging' as some would have it. I was wrong.

It is not, and never was, my intent to denigrate your product. I applaud those who find niche markets to exploit, in the positive sense of the term. I feel you and Del have done a most good job in this area, and I wish both of you success. 

And for those who read this post, I want to say: *"This man, at risk of his own sale, gave me all the stock numbers I neeed to get into basic RC by listing other producers part numbers two years ago. I feel good about recommending him to beginners and those more advanced than I.* 
Les


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Since this post has turned into a learning exercise, just for the record; AM stands for Amplitude Modulation, FM is Frequency modulation. The modulation part; the data, can be anything you want, audio, digital data, etc.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Well Gents and to add to this foray and to mix in on a few other threads: 

AM/FM modulation was great as I was in a LRHS environment. ( High School that is) 

Now my logic implies that RC ( rectal colitis ) is kicking in here and this combined with AS (anklylosing spondylitis) may influence my ability to CMA ( cover my ass ) as it applies to GRLA's ( ground restictive bending activities ) 


As such it is only proper to conduct said activities in a restrictive environment for which there are many options to ARRA ( apply reactive remedial action ) . 


yes? 



gg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Les.
I am by no means an expert on RF, but I believe that all you need to understand is, (and assuming the wiring cable is the same, although they do vary from brand to brand), that pretty well all servos work exactly the same way, no mattter what the form of the RF signal from the transmitter. 
Whether it be AM, FM, and FM w/PCM.
AM is very susceptible to interference.
FM less so.
FM w/PCM is pretty well immune.
Although I have not yet actually tried the 2.4 GHz spread spectrum technology, to the best of my knowledge even the cheapest servos will still work with it.

In normal use with servos the system is powered by batteries from 4.8 volts up to 6 volts. The RX provides a 4.8 to 6 volt supply (usually red), coming from the RX, a ground (-) wire (usually black) and a signal wire (usually white or yellow).
In the case of most ESC's used for LS the ESC itself supplies regulated 5 volts for the RX via 3 x way cable and does not require extra batteries. This 5 volt supply goes into the RX and out again for any accessory servos which might be used for uncoupling etc. Otherwise there is only one 3 wire cable from the ESC to the RX and nothing else.
Using another stick for accessory triggers such as a sound system requires another three way cable between the RX and the ESC. This is plugged into whichever spare channel for the stick you wish to use to trigger the sounds.
In the case of EVO ESC's this extra signal wire goes to the EVO ESC which has the ability to read that RX signal and convert it into two sound triggers per channel.
If you want even more sound triggers you simply add a # 2-M-Fv2 for two more triggers.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/04/2009 7:24 PM
Since this post has turned into a learning exercise, just for the record; AM stands for Amplitude Modulation, FM is Frequency modulation. The modulation part; the data, can be anything you want, audio, digital data, etc.


///Semp: cut me some slack, Please. I knew that--years ago. Amplitude Modulation. You're entirely correct, but it was done by microphone speaking into a carrier wave. Right? (And, I take NO offense!)

Point of fact, I'm glad you picked up on that.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Big John on 05/04/2009 5:22 PM
OK I'm convinced it is not worth the trouble to try to turn a $10 set of RC cars into two RC control systems for my engines. I just gave the cars to my neighbor's 5 year old to play with. He is having a ball in his driveway. I am going to put both the minning engine and trolly on track power with a reversing circut. The more I thought about it I do not want to stand there and manually run a mining engine in and out of a tunnel or a tolley back and forth anyway. 

John












John: Not the answer I was hoping to hear. I was hoping you'd make it happen.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 05/04/2009 9:25 PM
Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/04/2009 7:24 PM
Since this post has turned into a learning exercise, just for the record; AM stands for Amplitude Modulation, FM is Frequency modulation. The modulation part; the data, can be anything you want, audio, digital data, etc.


///Semp: cut me some slack, Please. I knew that--years ago. Amplitude Modulation. You're entirely correct, but it was done by microphone speaking into a carrier wave. Right? (And, I take NO offense!)

Point of fact, I'm glad you picked up on that.

Les





Hey, don't blame me! I thought AM stood for Anti-Meridian and PM stood for Post-Meridian... what's FM???? Full Monty?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 05/04/2009 9:44 PM
Posted By Big John on 05/04/2009 5:22 PM
OK I'm convinced it is not worth the trouble to try to turn a $10 set of RC cars into two RC control systems for my engines. I just gave the cars to my neighbor's 5 year old to play with. He is having a ball in his driveway. I am going to put both the minning engine and trolly on track power with a reversing circut. The more I thought about it I do not want to stand there and manually run a mining engine in and out of a tunnel or a tolley back and forth anyway. 

John












John: Not the answer I was hoping to hear. I was hoping you'd make it happen.

Les



As for using the Cheap car R/C stuff... since the ones I have seen only have Forward-Off-Reverse for the Throttle and "Left-Middle-Right" for the Steering there is no provision for speed control, it would be just full bore Forward or Reverse or Stop with nothing in between. I suppose one could use the Steering to switch in/out resistors in series with the motor to lower the power and maybe have three speeds in each direction... steer Left to get a high resistance and so a slow speed, Middle would be a smaller resistance value to give a medium speed and Right would be no resistance and thus give maximum speed. But that seems boring.

For my purposes, since all I want is to drive a servo or solenoid to pull the whistle cord, I think I could use one of these things in addition to my expensive Car R/C TX/Rcvr to gain the "4th" function that it lacks. It just means having to carry two controller/transmitters (the main one to control the Throttle, Reverser and Blower servos and the cheapie one to control the whistle valve) with their attendant separate power supplies (unless I can get one that operates on the same voltage as the other). Just have to make sure they are different frequencies so they don't interfere with each other.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

{Just to remind you;
I am not an Aussie. I just live here. I am still a Brit. 

Because of the vagaries of the way posts are made on this forum I have a great deal of trouble understanding what it is you are on about.}

Tony:

I am 'on about' complimenting you and Del who are providing low-cost remote control systems to beginners, or those who know precisely what they are about. And *free *guidance for those who don't know what they want--like me, a couple of years ago.

I cannot address the fact that you are a 'Brit' living in Australia. To my Midwestern mind, living in a country tags one as a member of same. Howsumever (as humor only) I resent being called a 'North American'. That would link me with current elected officials whom I despise. I'd prefer if you thought of me as an Ozark hillbilly, which carries (in my mind only, and to defuse political recriminations on the board) more honor. Perhaps, going by an old song, you might think of me as a 'swagman'.

With the greatest respect, I'd suggest you look into your ISP. Or contact me off-board if you feel slighted in the least degree. I believe I have posted complimentary statements meant to not injure your business. If you feel I have, post me and I will at once repeat what I've previously posted.

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles. 
Even if the el cheapo R/C control is only full on at each end of the stick movement and does not provide proportional movement, it may still be useable. 
Whether or not it is useable depends on how the transmitted signal actually works. If the signal actually replicates how the regular low cost R/C works, but without the in between control, the "brains" in the EVO ESC may still be able to interpret that full on signal in either direction and ramp the EVO ESC output up just as it does with Futaba or Hi-Tec R/C. 
Once the desired speed has been reached the stick is let go, the system remembers to stay at that speed until told to do otherwise. 

Les. 
I am aware of your complimentary comments about my helpfulness and am not in the least bit offended. 
What I didn't understand was what your questions were, as they were all mixed up with quotes and other replies. I guess that is caused by the way this forum works.


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

These particular cars did have a left hand lever for speed control in forward and reverse. When you pushed the lever up it started the car in forward motion and increased the speed the further you moved the lever up. When you released the lever it returned to the center position and the car stopped. Same lever pushed down worked the reverse. Granted there was not a lot of range from dead slow to top speed but it was there. The right and left turn worked the same way except the right hand lever was pushed right or left and not up and down. You could make a hard turn or just tweek it a little. The steering returned to neutral when you released the lever. There was a button that you pushed to blow a not very good sounding horn. A switch on the car turned the lights on and off. 

John


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a lot nicer than the last one I got. Mine had only three switches. One was to turn left... the car always turned to the right and the switch just jerked the steering to full left when you moved the "steering wheel" on the controller. The other two switches were configured such that only one could be activated at a time... both off, it was stopped, one on was full forward, and the other on was full backward, but there was no way to turn both on at once so I don't know what it would do if they were both on.


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