# pulsed smoke confusion



## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

So after a lot of changes of mind regarding which systems would suit me best I have finally decided on NCE Pro Cab, Track power and Phoenix PB11 Big sound to go into my Aristo Mallet.
If I angst it anymore I will go nuts. So:- 


One last thing I am tring to figure out is:
Will the Pheonix card allow me to pulse the Aristo smoke unit output for "chuffs" in synch with the sound or do I need another board to do this.


Thanks for all inputs and patience.


p.s. I do not intend to use the speaker in the tender but rather put one, or two in the Loco. I see on Gregs site he shows how to install two speakers in his Aristo. If I used this method would I need to make some openings so the sound could "get out" rather than be muffled in an enclosed space?


Colin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so a couple of things. 

Some smoke units have a wire that is a control to pulse the smoke, in most cases it pulses the fan. Aristo smoke units do not have this feature. The Massoth unit has this. 

Some trains have smoke units that are just a fan and a heater, and an external board does the work, MTH is an example of this, also rewiring a smoke unit to get direct control of the fan and heating element is how the DCC decoders like Zimo, and others can do it. 

So the phoenix sound card is not a fully functional DCC decoder like the Zimo, so it cannot do anything. 

Actually I have also used 4 speakers in my mallet, using the "1:1 sound system".... yes, and I detailed the big hole I cut down between the cylinders... I used a 2" hole saw. The bass will get out ok by itself. 

Regards, Greg


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks Gary, your site has been very helpful. 

So if I understand correctly I need to install a Massoth smoke unit which will be controlled by a Massoth eMOTION XXL decoder for the pulses but how will it sync with the sound, do I take the signal from the decoder and run it to both the phoenix card and the massoth smoke unit? 
I would still like to use the Nce Pro cab controller just wondering if I am mixing too many different manufacturers together. 

As for the speakers I assume that the long tube that sits on the weight is for bass and the one at the front is for higher frequencies so there is no need to put extra holes for the sound to escape. 
Will the 1:1 system work ok with a phoenix card, wiring them in parallel? 

Sorry for all these "dumb" questions, just trying to get my head around everything. 

Regards


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Massoth smoke unit has multiple ways to interface, not requiring a Massoth decoder. 

Now you need to give details about what locomotive you have and what is the "chuff switch" situation... normally a magnet on a wheel and a reed switch on the loco. 

Speakers, well the idea is that more speakers make more sound. The long one does make more bass than the others. Yes, the placement is such that the hole I drilled in the mallet between the cylinders allows the high frequencies of that speaker to escape and bounce off the track/ballast. 

The 1:1 will work fine with Phoenix, but why not contact the manufacturer to get even more specifics? 

No, your questions are far from dumb, and even dumb questions are fine!!!! 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Please keep in mind unless you provide extra power to the smoke unit when the engine is standing (= no DCC on the track) you will have a limited experience with your chuff synchronized smoke. Chuff sync smoke is best visible at slow speeds and the heater element needs to be preheated in order to accomplish that.

Normally youbare better off with a different integrated sound system and a simpler smoke unit, the it works much better, because modern integrated sound systems delay the start voltage to the motor and hence you canberra at standstill while the unit heats up.

Also the integrated systems allow better control of the smoke, the motor break function, etc, to have andsoon optimal experience in your particular environment.


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks again Gary, 

The loco is an Aristo Mallet. 
As for the "chuff switch" I was under the impresion that the Chuffs were generated by the sound card and the faster the engine went the chuffs went faster. I have seen the magnets and reed switch configuration but assumed that this was for purists who wanted the chuffs to coincide with wheel revolutions, but someone pointed out that once the engine got moving you couldn't tell the difference. 

If a reed switch and magnets are the way to go then that's fine, do I need two switches one each for the smoke and sound? From what I have read in the manuals there doesn't seem to be any diagrams showing wiring from decoder to sound card that's why I was looking at a massoth decoder to go with the smoke unit thinking they would be plug and play. 

I read warnings that say to be careful not to draw too much current among others, guess I'm just trying to be as careful as I can. Part of my problem is that I have looked at so much info things are starting to blur together. 
Bottom line is I want as realistic an engine as possible. 

Regards 

Thanks Axel, I was impressed by the video on the Massoth page the engine had lots of smoke from a standstill


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can use a chuff input on your sound card and smoke unit, which is normally a switch that is triggered by the rotation of the wheels as I mentioned before. This is what you normally tie the chuff input of the sound card to. 

Most sound cards also do "auto chuff" which just sort of guesses the chuff rate by the voltage on the rails (or DCC speed)... in this mode, there is no chuff switch, therefore there is nothing to drive the massoth unit, but it might be able to "auto chuff" itself. 

As I said earlier, one reed switch will run both the sound card and the smoke unit. 

What motor decoder are you using? 

Greg 

p.s. my name is Greg, not Gary...


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a Zimo decoder which will control the smoke heater element and fan which are in many USA and Aristo locos. Chuff can be a wheel sensor or back EMF. 

These work best on DCC, but will work on analog as the decoder will delay the motor start until a certain voltage is reached which allows the heater to preheat as Axel mentioned. 

On DCC with a diesel engine you even get the start puff of smoke when turning on the sound with the newest decoders!! 

Also, if trying to reach Train-LI, the power is still out in Upton, MA and may be out the rest of the week. This means no phone service also.


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

My apologies Greg, don't know how I came up with Gary, put it down to a Senior moment. 

Thanks Dan, back EMF was what I was thinking of. So it would seem that if I got a massoth smoke unit and a Zimo decoder/sound card I should be in business. I have e-mailed Zemo to see if I can use the 19v Massoth unit as it seems to have a very nice smoke output but according to the Zimo manual they only output 5v, we'll see what their reply is. I will also get in touch with 1:1 sound to see if their speakers will be ok with a Zimo card. 

The lights are starting to come on, so to speak, I just need to confirm from Zimo the Massoth unit to get and if I can still use the NCE G Wire controller with this setup. 

Thanks again for all the help, when (not if) I get this puppy going I will post pics. 

Regards 

Colin


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By bcbrit on 01 Nov 2011 06:21 PM 
My apologies Greg, don't know how I came up with Gary, put it down to a Senior moment. 

Thanks Dan, back EMF was what I was thinking of. So it would seem that if I got a massoth smoke unit and a Zimo decoder/sound card I should be in business. I have e-mailed Zemo to see if I can use the 19v Massoth unit as it seems to have a very nice smoke output but according to the Zimo manual they only output 5v, we'll see what their reply is. I will also get in touch with 1:1 sound to see if their speakers will be ok with a Zimo card. 

The lights are starting to come on, so to speak, I just need to confirm from Zimo the Massoth unit to get and if I can still use the NCE G Wire controller with this setup. 

Thanks again for all the help, when (not if) I get this puppy going I will post pics. 

Regards 

Colin Colin:

I think that you would be better of with your Massoth smoke unit coupled with a Massoth decoder since the two are designed to work well and seamlessly with one another. You would not even need a pulse generator to get pulsed smoke since Massoth decoders feature a pulse generator simulation for use with the smoke generator. You should keep in mind, however that the 19V smoke unit is best suited for digital (DCC) operation, whereas the 5V smoke unit is better suited for either analog or digital operation. 

Mohammed BenDebba
*[url]http://www.massothusa.com[/url]
*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Colin, since you are new, I will point out that Mohammed is a seller of Massoth, for a living. 

Most people who are in the business will pint this out in their posts, but you might not know. 

Might be a good time to identify what kind of power you will be using, just normal track power, or remote control, etc. 


Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Nov 2011 09:31 PM 
Colin, since you are new, I will point out that Mohammed is a seller of Massoth, for a living. 

Most people who are in the business will pint this out in their posts, but you might not know. 

Might be a good time to identify what kind of power you will be using, just normal track power, or remote control, etc. 


Regards, Greg Greg: *you seem to suffer from selective attention, look a little further up. Do you really believe, or are you prentending, that people are not able to figure it out for themselves? and I do not selll Massoth for a living, I do it for fun.*

Mohammed BenDebba
*[url]http://www.massothusa.com/*[/url]


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Did some one wake up on the wrong side of the cage today?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, all the other people who post and also sell products identify themselves. Take Tony Walsham, Dell Tappero, etc. They are good examples of vendors that do not try to say there is no other way. 

In general dealers/vendors actually usually limit their posts when recommending their product over a competitor. I have 10,000 posts (which does not matter), but that also shows I have read a LOT of this forum. I know what I speak of. 

Your answers are ALWAYS Massoth is best. Talk about "Selective attention". 

This is a new person to the hobby. You are a dealer or whatever, you sell this stuff for a profit. 

If the unit is so "limited" that it only works well with a Massoth DCC decoder, maybe it's not such a good suggestion? 

Why don't we put the "money" part aside and see how we can give the best, unbiased information to a beginner? 

Back to the thread, Colin, the Zimo can talk "directly" to the heating element and fan in a smoke unit... the Massoth unit has "brains" that you would not want to bypass. 

We have not mentioned money, but for example, using a Zimo and an Aristo unit or MTH unit will be a much lower cost solution than the Massoth, for example. 

What budget are you looking towards? 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Mad man: what about cages?


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Gentlemen, 

The last thing I want to do is start a "who's/what is best" argument. I realize that this is all subjective and everybody has their own preferences and that I will eventually "have to make my bed and lie in it". I really appreciate everyone's input but when all is said and done it will be my choice with no blame for any shortcomings to anyone, except myself, that may or may not arise. 

Greg, as far as the budget goes I am fortunate enough to not be too confined, money is a consideration but I want to do things right the first time, so if a Zimo decoder/sound unit, Massoth smoke unit will work with DCC track power with a NCE G Wire controller I will be happy. The only concern I have right now is will the 5v Massoth unit give sufficient smoke compared to the 19v unit. 

I realise that I will have to modify the Mallet to accept the Massoth unit and that's fine with me. I do have experience with modelling/machining so I don't see any problems arising from modifications. 

Best regards and thanks for all contributions. 

Colin


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## Udo (Nov 5, 2010)

Gentlemen!
Be carefull with the Massoth 5V unit.
I have 3 of them. 
First: They will *not* work with 5 Volts!
I had mine for repair at Massoth Germany (transport from China etc etc.)
It took the more than half a year to do something.
Finally, a great guy at Massoth took care of my units. He arranged a power supply wit around 7 Volts for me.
Now they work perfect.
Mine are supplied by that "power board" direct from the rails (the decoder switches a relais for that supply).
There is also a seperat Hall sensor for the unit. 
I don't know, if the newgeneration of the 5 V units still has this problem. There is no info about that on their web page.
Udo


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo decoder works with the USA, Aristo, and the Train-Li fan driven smoke units. It can work with just heater elements, there are 3 cv's for the element control such as the ones in LGB engines. 5/18/24 volt can all be controlled). 

The USA and Train-Li units are heater elements and fans which get wired to the Zimo decoder directly and are controlled by the decoder firmware and CV settings. 

The Aristo unit needs the electronics bypassed and then use the heater element and fan controls from the decoder.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By bcbrit on 02 Nov 2011 12:12 AM 
Gentlemen, 

The last thing I want to do is start a "who's/what is best" argument. I realize that this is all subjective and everybody has their own preferences and that I will eventually "have to make my bed and lie in it". I really appreciate everyone's input but when all is said and done it will be my choice with no blame for any shortcomings to anyone, except myself, that may or may not arise. 

Greg, as far as the budget goes I am fortunate enough to not be too confined, money is a consideration but I want to do things right the first time, so if a Zimo decoder/sound unit, Massoth smoke unit will work with DCC track power with a NCE G Wire controller I will be happy. The only concern I have right now is will the 5v Massoth unit give sufficient smoke compared to the 19v unit. 

I realise that I will have to modify the Mallet to accept the Massoth unit and that's fine with me. I do have experience with modelling/machining so I don't see any problems arising from modifications. 

Best regards and thanks for all contributions. 

Colin Colin: If you intend to run you loco only on DCC, your optimum choice is the 19V smoke unit, it draws let less than .2amps. For DCC or anolog operation, *with a regulated and stabilized 5V power supply*, the optimum choice is the 5V unit, it draws up to .65amps.

*Mohammed BenDebba (the Massoth Selller)*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Colin, in my opinion, the most smoke, based on what I have seen, would be a MTH unit connected to a Zimo. This is what I would do because the state-side Zimo people have done a number of installs on many different types of smoke units. 

The MTH unit puts out a prodigious amount of smoke, and is just a fan and heater, 4 wires, and of basically all metal construction. You might want to visit my web site to see the various units available. 

* http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/dcc-battery-rc-electronics-mainmenu-225/smoke-units-mainmenu-208*


(top one is MTH, but they make various sizes)










Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Had a big speaker mounted just below my Aristo smoke unit. When the sound board chuffed, the smoke responded. The effect was completely unexpected, but very convincing.


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

It would seem that MTH are not that keen on selling their smoke units. I have been googling for most of the day and all I can find is the impeller and heater for MTH along with smoke fluid, even using Gregs unit number for searching, no complete units. I will keep trying but unless I come across a few more clues I am leaning towards the Massoth 19v unit and Zimo decoder. 

For future consideration I am looking at using the original Aristo smoke unit to supply smoke/steam to the pistons and blowdown areas for extra effects, also It would be nice if I could use the tender mounted speaker for brake and coupler noises separate from the front speaker which will only have the Chuffs, but that will be another thread, one step at a time. 

Thanks again for the help and interest. 

Regards Colin


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## Udo (Nov 5, 2010)

Hallo Mohammed!
As I told already in this thread, the 5V units (bought in 2010) will *not* work with 5V....
Massoth Germany confessed ist in the beginning of 2011.
I have the massoth unit (3 pcs) and the Massoth 5V regulators also.
The regulators are useless for me.
I have got new regulators (custom made) from Massoth for free (thanks to the nice guy over there!).
This new regulators give about 7V. Now the unit works.
I am not sure, if Massoth changed the design of the units (5V), so they will work with that voltage.
There is no hint about this on their website.
Your recommendation is the 5V unit plus the 5V regulator... are these units from a new batch?????
Udo


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

mbendebba, 
My little snip-its are meant with humor in mind. What I meant was that both of you, yourself and Greg, must have awaken on the wrong side of the bed. However, instead, I substituted the word "cage'. Meaning, like two caged animals going at one another. It's sometimes difficult, I know, seeing humor in someone's written responses. However, I do enjoy inserting my brand of humor into these forums whenever I think it's warrented. After all, isn't this hobby supposed to be about having a good time doing what we most enjoy?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Madman on 02 Nov 2011 09:37 PM 
mbendebba, 
My little snip-its are meant with humor in mind. What I meant was that both of you, yourself and Greg, must have awaken on the wrong side of the bed. However, instead, I substituted the word "cage'. Meaning, like two caged animals going at one another. It's sometimes difficult, I know, seeing humor in someone's written responses. However, I do enjoy inserting my brand of humor into these forums whenever I think it's warrented. After all, isn't this hobby supposed to be about having a good time doing what we most enjoy? 


Dan: I did not really take your comment seriously, I just wanted to make light of it.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Udo on 02 Nov 2011 08:26 PM 
Hallo Mohammed!
As I told already in this thread, the 5V units (bought in 2010) will *not* work with 5V....
Massoth Germany confessed ist in the beginning of 2011.
I have the massoth unit (3 pcs) and the Massoth 5V regulators also.
The regulators are useless for me.
I have got new regulators (custom made) from Massoth for free (thanks to the nice guy over there!).
This new regulators give about 7V. Now the unit works.
I am not sure, if Massoth changed the design of the units (5V), so they will work with that voltage.
There is no hint about this on their website.
Your recommendation is the 5V unit plus the 5V regulator... are these units from a new batch?????
Udo
Hello Udo:

The 5V units we initially designed to work with a regulated, stabilized power supply like the one used in LGB locomotives, which is more like a 6. something volt regualted power supply (that was probably the test bed for the early units). The current units work best when coupled with a Massoth voltage regulator. We need to wait for a couple more months to see what the newest unit will be like.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Colin, I can help you find the parts, the MTH site is a pain to find parts with. 

You have to find the exploded diagram and then go to a different location to order the part. The funny thing is the smoke unit was about $58, and came pretty quickly. 

Since you can't order the parts except from their web site, Google is worthless. 


Anything will work with the Zimo, and I believe the ESU can do this too.. meaning directly driving the heating element and the fan. I forgot if the Massoth can do this.


In terms of smoke output, from all the videos I have seen (besides my direct experience), directly driving the smoke unit heating element and fan gives the greatest and most impressive smoke output. Seeing an MTH loco or the Zimo systems done by Axel and Dan have been the most impressive.

There's also the Harbor models unit, which is way above that, but it draws 2 amps, so not clear it could be directly driven.

The Massoth units I have seen are very nice, but no at the same output level. 


Lots of different things you can do... if it was me, I would want to do the direct drive from a Zimo or similar. I will use the MTH unit because I got one, but I also have 3 TAS units, which are pretty good, and will probably "invade" some of my Aristo units to do this.

I like the MTH stuff because it is proven to work at high output and is all metal. 

Anyway, if money is no object, you can afford to experiment a bit, I'm sure this won't be your only loco!

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, can you post a link here with the part numbers and web site so everyone interested could order one? I know there's been discussion in the past about folks having difficulty locating the MTH units. 

Later, 

K


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## wslogger15 (Jul 14, 2008)

Hello, 

Does anyone know what happened to Trains America Studios (TAS)? I got one of their smoke units a couple years ago and would really like to get more. 

Best Regards, 
Charles Collins


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

The zimo decoder has been mentioed several times for pulsing a smoke unit. What is the model number for that unit?

Charles,
I believe that Lionel bought the rights to the TAS units and have taken them off the market. If you look through a online Lionel parts list you will see some smoke units and parts that have a strong resemblance to the TAS units. Lionel could sell quite a few of the TAS units if they wanted to market them. Good unit that can be pulsed directly off magnets and reed switch.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Can I second Kevins request Greg? 

I spent some time on the MTH site last night but came up well short of locating exploded views (mostly greyed out) or actual part numbers when an exploded view was available.. 

Cheers 
Neil


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Paul, 

The unit I found was the MX695 series http://www.zimo.at/web2010/products/lokdecodergrosse_EN.htm 

Remember that I am totally new to this hobby and could be wrong but it seems to me to be the right unit. 

Regards 

Colin


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By bcbrit on 03 Nov 2011 06:04 PM 
Paul, 

The unit I found was the MX695 series http://www.zimo.at/web2010/products/lokdecodergrosse_EN.htm 

Remember that I am totally new to this hobby and could be wrong but it seems to me to be the right unit. 

Regards 

Colin Colin; I followed this link and this is what is says about the smoke fan function output: " This *special connection for smoke fan* is used to drive the fan motor of a pulsed smoke generator. Unlike the "normal" function, the fan output can be slowed down, so the timing of the smoke is reinforced. The output is designed for a 5 V motor and up to 100 mA permanent load, the inrush (startup) current may be higher" .

I do not understand this statment as clearly as I would like, but I suggest that you pay close attention to what it says about the ouput of this function (5V and no more that 100mA). I think that this function is intended to control the fan motor not power the smoke generator. It does not say how it controls the fan either.

Mohammed BenDebba 
*[url]http://www.massothusa.com*[/url]


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

"Dan: I did not really take your comment seriously, I just wanted to make light of it." 

mbendebba 

Not a problema. But you can see why the written word is difficult to place inflextions in. I guess that's why good authers sell books.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The information on the part number for the MTH is on my page I linked before:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...inmenu-208*


The question about TAS was answered in the section titled with TAS Train America Studio.

The part number for the MTH Hudson unit is in the MTH section.

Greg

(I think it's easy enough to read)


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Greg, 

I do not see a link to MTH, you do show the smoke unit and description but thats all. Maybe I'm missing something. 

Mohammed, Thanks for your input, this is from correspondense with Zimo, please correct me if I am missing something:- 

"Good afternoon, 

I am interested in buying a Zimo MX695KV decoder to operate a Massoth smoke unit in sync with the Chuffs. Can you please tell me if I can use the 19v Massoth unit or am I limited to 5v. 

Thank you 

Colin 

Dear Mr. Colin, 

Yes, that is possible (if your track volatage is 19V or higher). 

The MX695KV offers three low voltage outputs (two fixed on +5V, +10V see page 4 in the manual http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX695-Eng-V1-07-20-11.pdf for details and one adjustable between 1,5V and the actual trackvoltage with a potentiometer.) 

Just use the adjustable one for getting 19V by using a small screwpull to adjust the potentiometer to 19V. Please note that you should change never the trackvoltage after that. 

Please note that the voltages designations are NOT no-load voltage designations. 

Best regards, 
Stephan Hubinger 

ZIMO Elektronik GmbH" 

If I understand correctly I would use a Function output to control the smoke heater element, page 25 of the manual. 

Regards 

Colin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right under the picture of the MTH unit: 

"I have ordered the one from the Hudson ( Proto-Sound 2.0® ) AA-0000032[/b] 50.00 ( 6.0x3.0x4.4mm brass cup )( 7.5mm long posts ) 

It's just under an inch wide, 1.4" long, and about 1.3" tall overall, not including the brass stack. It was $57 from MTH." 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By bcbrit on 03 Nov 2011 11:39 PM 
Greg, 

I do not see a link to MTH, you do show the smoke unit and description but thats all. Maybe I'm missing something. 

Mohammed, Thanks for your input, this is from correspondense with Zimo, please correct me if I am missing something:- 

"Good afternoon, 

I am interested in buying a Zimo MX695KV decoder to operate a Massoth smoke unit in sync with the Chuffs. Can you please tell me if I can use the 19v Massoth unit or am I limited to 5v. 

Thank you 

Colin 

Dear Mr. Colin, 

Yes, that is possible (if your track volatage is 19V or higher). 

The MX695KV offers three low voltage outputs (two fixed on +5V, +10V see page 4 in the manual http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX695-Eng-V1-07-20-11.pdf for details and one adjustable between 1,5V and the actual trackvoltage with a potentiometer.) 

Just use the adjustable one for getting 19V by using a small screwpull to adjust the potentiometer to 19V. Please note that you should change never the trackvoltage after that. 

Please note that the voltages designations are NOT no-load voltage designations. 

Best regards, 
Stephan Hubinger 

ZIMO Elektronik GmbH" 

If I understand correctly I would use a Function output to control the smoke heater element, page 25 of the manual. 

Regards 

Colin 

Hello Colin:

There are 2 things to consider when installing a pulsed smoke generator: controlling the pulse and powering the smoke generator. 

To power the 19V Massoth smoke generator you can use the adjustable output terminal as Stephan suggests. For me personally, having to set output by adjusting a potentiometer and then never changing track voltage is not an elegant solution. There are much more elegant solutions around . But if you mind is set on the Zimo, a potentiometer adjustable output terminal will do the job.

Stephan does not address my question about the output of the smoke fan function. I cannot say anything about it without knowing more. The output of this function should be a pulsed output, if so, how is the pulse controlled? Is it load depedent? can it be tweaked?

cheers

Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think there is still some basic confusion: 

The Zimo can control the heating element and fan directly. The Massoth is an all-in-one unit, with a trigger for BOTH the smoke and fan. This trigger does not provide high current. 

You might want to go back and read my explanations again of the difference between the 2 methods. 

I would not buy the Massoth if your intention is to control the motor and fan separately and directly, there are "smart electronics" inside that drive the smoke element and fan already. The Zimo can have a "chuff pulse output". 

The response from Zimo above assumes you are driving a heating element and fan directly, 2 wires to each, like you would do with the MTH unit, or if you "disconnected" the electronics in an Aristo or USA Trains unit (and which could be done with a Massoth, but I don't recommend it). 

Remember the difference is whether there is a low voltage low current "trigger" that makes the smoke, or there are direct connections to the heating element (a resistor in an oil bath) and the fan. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo decoder uses programmable registers to control both the motor speed and heater element current. 

There are 3 heater settings and the heater can be tied to your choice of f1 to f6. ( 
Appropriate output control gets set to 72 or 80 for steam/diesel control), and heater control is cv 137 to 139. 
The fan on the MX695 is tied to special output pins for control and cv's 351-355 control the steam/diesel speeds. 

The older MX690 series is similair, but cv133 must be set to 1 to enable motor control. 

Please note that the lowest price MX69x 's do not have the motor control, there are multiple versions/options.


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks Dan and Greg, 

I wasn't aware that the massoth was an all in one unit. I think my best solution for now is to bypass the electronics in the Aristo smoke unit and connect the fan and heater directly to the Zimo for the appropriate voltage, I can always replace the smoke unit later when I get a better feel for everything. 

If all goes well I will probably look at getting a MTH unit as Greg suggests, (I was looking for a highlighted direct link and skipped over the text) 

Thanks again 

Colin


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Colin: 

The Massoth unit is as far from an all in one unit as you can possibly imagine. It offers several ways to control its behavior and how you to choose to control depends in large part on how sophisticated and versatile is the controlling decoder. 

Mohammed BenDebba
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All in one meaning combining the heater, fan, drive transistors, logic board, and inputs to work from multiple sources. 

As opposed to a "bare" heater and "bare" fan. 

It's not a put down Mohammed, it's an accurate description. (and not a negative as you seem to take it) 

If he will use a Zimo, all the drive electronics, logic, inputs, etc is superfluous, in fact more work to tear into the Massoth unit and isolate the heater and fan. 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg: I did not take negatively or any other way. I am just sorry to see Colin abondon his initial choice for a smoke unit. If I knew more about the Zimo decoder's SUSI interface, I would have been able to help Colin stick with his first choice. The SUSI interface is the ideal connection for both sound as smoke units which depend on driving data.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On the SUSI interface, what commands can be actually sent to the fan and the heating element? 

It would be interesting to understand this. The level of control the Zimo can do has been mentioned. 

Another thing, does the Massoth unit do any "breaking" of the fan when it ends the "chuff"? 

(I think MTH may also have a patent here)... 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

There are a few CVs that control the fan, the heater, and many of them are driving data sensitive. Dry run protection, smoke volume, stading behavior, you name it. You can do some impressive fine tuning. I do not remember all the details, I only read the information one so that I could play around with a smoke unit. And if I remember correctly, you can set it to very low smoke volume at a stop, and high volume on acceleration. 

Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Where is this information? I have the manual, and it is pitiful. Remember all the discussion to just find out about the chuff input, and then it wants 6 volts not 5, etc. 

I'd like to know more, but there's no public resources I can find that have the information you refer to. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the newest Zimo (MX695) does have a form of fan breaking, the MX690 does not. Check with Axel of Train-Li to be sure.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Dan: Are you no longer employed by Axel at Train Li? 

Mohammed BenDebba 
http://www.massothusa.com


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg: Try the new manual on Massoth's wewsite.


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

I found the Massoth manual: http://www.massoth.com/dlbereich/datei.php?id=479 and also a product page about the smoke generators: http://www.massoth.de/en/produkte/8412x01.en.php 

This has been an interesting thread. I'm looking forward to trying pulsed smoke as soon as I convert to DCC. I'm just waiting on the new Zimo MX10 base station.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I read the manual... the things that can be set are basically the idle smoke amount, the chuff amount, and the number of pulses per rotation. So that's what was expected, not astounding. 

The manual does reference that through the susi bus, the smoke unit receives speed and load information, it does not say what it does with it, but you assume more speed and more load is more smoke. 

So, comparing this with what can be programmed via a Zimo decoder to it's direct outputs for heater and fan, the Zimo is at least the equivalent, and seems to have even more control. 

I'd say they are comparable, although you have less programmability with the Massoth. (you cannot change the effect/amount of the speed and load data on the susi bus) 

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg: you are comparing apples to oranges. The zimo is a decoder, It cannot do smoke until a smoke unit is connected to it, and the smoke unit cannot play around with the smoke until a decoder tells it what to do.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, We were comparing the functionality of the final solution...this is what the OP is asking about, in this case a Zimo with a smoke unit vs. a Massoth decoder using the SUSI bus to a Massoth smoke unit. 

I'm only reacting to your statements about all the capability of the Massoth solution (obviously in comparision with other solutions). 

I will agree, if you have to "send" the driving information from one decoder to another, SUSI is pretty much the only way, but having the decoder drive the heater and fan directly is another way, and in this case, I don't see anything the Massoth setup can do that the Zimo combination above cannot, on the contrary. 

In the US, SUSI was introduced a long time ago, the first time sound could be affected by load was a Lenz motor decoder driving a DEITZ sound board via SUSI... it was great, because it had never been done before... but the extra cost of 2 sets of electronics has yielded to all the electronics in a single board.... as in the combination sound and motor decoders... 

Now, with the combination decoders being able to drive the heater and fan directly, more economy of $$ and space is likewise achieved. 

Given the proper functionality, a "single board solution" always beats a multiple board lashup. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

@Mohamed:

It would be better if you would buy at least one ZIMO decoder, instead of reading between the lines of things you might not understand.







The sad part of that however is that you quickly learn how different (as in better) Zimo is.









@all
Dan is correct the MX695 series of Zimo decoders nowadays breaks the fan which is not as relevant for Diesel operation as it is for Steam operation. The chuff synchronization is now coming even more pronounced - especially in higher speeds because the fan no longer slows down to idle but is basically instantaneously stopped.

Heating elements are are directly connected to a function output. A special CV programming tell that function output if it is steam or diesel. In steam and diesel you have 3 additional CV controlling the power to the heating element (e.g. idle, heavy action, and "cruising"). An additional CV controls the fan speed while the engine is standing. Two more CVs control fan speeds for load and cruising in Diesel operation. Other CV values can control auto shut-off for people who are concerned to burn out their units.

With all this flexibility you can generate any desired effect.

The ProLine smoke unit (that is actually sold in Europe by ZIMO and its dealers) is optimally designed to work with ZIMO (and any other electronic that can take advantage of a separated heating element and the fan). We cut out the waste (electronic) in the design because what's the point if a good electronic can deal with all of this. Advantage is that we were able to offer the unit for 1/2 the price at the same smoke output level. However, this unit is not required if other smoke units already exist (USA Trains, Aristocraft). We have managed to put this unit (and the ZIMO decoder) even into a Stainz engine (YouTube video soon to follow).

The heating element works typically with 5 Volt, but we like to operate it with > 6.5 Volt because of tolerances we have a great influence over CV values.

Special note and and answer to Colin:
Sorry for the delay, but I have to reiterate - no electronic and no smoke unit will generate smoke unless there is power on the track. So there are several ways to do this:
1. Easiest - DCC - you get the best out of this environment
2. Analog with battery power - now you can pre-heat the smoke unit so that you get optimal chuff synchronized smoke - problem is you will drain the battery
3. Use a electronic that delays that start of the motor (this is actually how ZIMO has implemented the analog mode in the MX695. Starting at 5V track power the power is up converted to 10V and now fires up the rest of the board, while yet not feeding power to the motor output. At that level the heating element is preheated, and you get similar activity under analog as compared to DCC.

Using an external other electronic that doesn't delay the motor function will only result in delayed smokig (no power no heat)


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 10 Nov 2011 07:36 PM 
@Mohamed:

It would be better if you would buy at least one ZIMO decoder, instead of reading between the lines of things you might not understand.







The sad part of that however is that you quickly learn how different (as in better) Zimo is.









Axel:
Axel



You are certainly free to believe whatever you want about Zimo and I understand. After all you are selling it!








I have done my homework, and I am convinced that Massoth is a technologically better product (as in SUPERIOR).








I do not only sell the product, I actually use it on my personal layout.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 10 Nov 2011 10:09 PM 
I have done my homework, 



that's what children say when they still come home with an F - "but I have done my homework".







Why don't you give us a top 10 list of why Massoth decoders are better? Let's start out with the slow driving capabilities and then continue...







... Posted By mbendebba on 10 Nov 2011 10:09 PM 
I do not only sell the product, I actually use it on my personal layout

I have 20+ of my own locos equipped with ZIMO long before Train-Li-USA was born. We have 300+ locomotives from LGB, Aristocraft, USA Trains, HLW, Accucraft converted. Many of which in the LGB world had either Massoth decoders in there or a LGB/Massoth. We have worked with Phoenix, QSI - you name it. You maybe familiar with Massoth, but for sure you have no experience for the comparison of decoders. When was the last ZIMO decoder you actually put into an engine? And which function you couldn't implement or which sound implementation didn't reflect the prototype? Come-on Mohamed, bring us facts. The last time I showed you the non-NMRA standard in Massoth switch decoder's CV value, you never addressed that. There is a huge difference in discussing facts or discussing feelings. There are pluses and minuses in every product, but I am proud of the latest ZIMO generation which has gone the extra way to have a state-of-the-art product.

So Mohamed, bring us some facts - real world implementations. I always like a good fact based intellectual exercise. I don't even mind loosing - as long as the other side has FACTS.







So far you have shined with your polemic instead of real deep rooted knowledge.

In the meantime, one good fact finding exercise is to learn German and study the last 3 years of the Gartenbahn Profi - here and there there are some comparisons of implementations with various decoders and how they fared.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed: If the way you sell your product is to just put down the other product and the person, then that is a sad sales technique indeed. Then you imply that Axle does not us it?

Man, I need to introduce you to an American phrase: "shooting yourself in the foot".









Yeah, show me that your low speed control and BEMF is better than Zimo. Give me some screenshots of your programming software. Show me a product line as extensive as Zimo, show me the constant improvement in new, better models offered. I have bought a number of brands of decoders, but never a Massoth. Sell me on the capabilities. FACTS, not personal attacks. 


Posted By mbendebba on 10 Nov 2011 10:09 PM 
Axel:
Axel



You are certainly free to believe whatever you want about Zimo and I understand. After all you are selling it!








I have done my homework, and I am convinced that Massoth is a technologically better product (as in SUPERIOR).








I do not only sell the product, I actually use it on my personal layout.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Stan may want to use this one in his thoughts for the day threads... 

You can't have a conversation/discussion with a closed mind. 

Good luck gents. 
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, Mohammed is always up for a fight! What I said was in earnest. What I hope is to get a nice list of features. If the Massoth stuff is so great, then maybe I need to buy some, but it will be based on performance, features, etc. not statements not based on fact. 

So, Mohammed, I'm all ears! 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 10 Nov 2011 07:36 PM 


Greg: I expected you to chime in anyway, and certainly in much the same as you did. 

*If you can explain to me how you arrived at this statement: 
*
" Mohammed: If the way you sell your product is to just put down the other product and the person, then that is a sad sales technique indeed. Then you imply that Axle does not us it? Man, I need to introduce you to an American phrase: "shooting yourself in the foot". 

*Or this satement:
*
Oh, Mohammed is always up for a fight!

*from this exchange between axel and I* 

@Mohamed: It would be better if you would buy at least one ZIMO decoder, instead of reading between the lines of things you might not understand. The sad part of that however is that you quickly learn how different (as in better) Zimo is. 

Axel: You are certainly free to believe whatever you want about Zimo and I understand. After all you are selling it! I have done my homework, and I am convinced that Massoth is a technologically better product (as in SUPERIOR). I do not only sell the product, I actually use it on my personal layout 

*then you would deserve a response. 

*
Mohammed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen........ 

The most fitting way to honor those who served is to not create a scene where we must call in the National Guard to keep you guys apart. You all know the rules. 

Later 

K


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks for everyones inputs, been very helpfull. 

Axel, yes I will go DCC probably NCE non radio, the Zimo is very nice but has more than I need for now, maybe down the road. I looked for the ProLine smoke unit and came up blank, could you give me a link please price and ordering info. 

Cheers 

Colin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Colin, I know it's more money, but give serious consideration to buying the radio version... are you here in the states or in the UK? 

Ahh, in the UK you cannot use the radio... 



Greg


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## bcbrit (Sep 21, 2011)

Greg, I am in the great white north, Canada. 

Why do you recommend the radio version, convenience or something extra? 

Cheers 

Colin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Convenience... also can be used wired if desired. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If your running out doors the wirless is the way to go and you will not be tied down to your command station. Lot more flexibility. Later RJD


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I use wireless both indoors and outside. I would never go back to tethered. (anyone remember the first VCR's? They had wired remotes).


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

On 3rd Feb *1984*, NASA astronauts Bruce McCandless II and Robert L. Stewart made the first * untethered spacewalks *in history during Space Shuttle mission *STS-41B. *The first untethered spacewalk lasted 5 hrs and 55 minutes.That was more than 27 years ago. Surely it is easier to walk beside the train *untethered *today and still be in command.

On 13 May *1897*, Guglielmo Marconi transmitted the first wireless communication message over open sea (Bristol Channel, 3.7 miles).


The message simply read: *ARE YOU READY* 


Cheers
Victor


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Wireless is so much better outside. On an indoor layout I'd consider a tethered trottle, but outside it's more than worth the extra cost


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Colin:

Certainly, here it is:

http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/p...-1258.html


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I SWEAR that was not there before! Is this part of your return to the Internet Axel? 

Thanks for the link. 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been following this with interest,trying to ignore the politics. Here is my question. For those that use Airwire, could you use, say an Aristo or USA smoke unit with,the Zimo 695, and Phoenix P8 to achieve chuffing smoke in a steam loco? I realize there would probably need to be some voltage regulation for the smoke unit. The heating element could be powered from the Airwire decoder and controlled with a function key. Some kind of diagram and typical CV settings would be helpfull.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You would just use the Zimo to do the sound and chuffing, since it is a sound card too. Also, then you could use autochuff or a trigger. You could add in the Phoenix, but why add cost. 

And yes, you could use virtually any smoke unit, just get directly connected to the heating element and fan. 

The voltage regulation for the fan and the heater is done by the Zimo. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy that smoke unit sure looks familiar. Later RJD


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