# What's happening to Butane?



## topshed (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi All, 

I live in UK and am finding it increasingly difficult to obtain straight butane to fire up my live steamers. Most manufacturers seem to be abandoning it in favour of butane/propane mix. I was wondering a) do other folk have the same problem and b) where can I get some butane??!!


Martin


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Martin, 

I don't know how it works in the UK, but over here we get straight butane from the Korean grocery. They cook on gas stoves using pure butane. It's about $5 for 3 cans.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, over here in UK we don't have Korean groceries.

We have Asian groceries, but not in outlying areas where, not surprisingly, many of us who have garden trains actually live. My nearest big town is Peterborough, almost twenty miles away, but I have no idea where I would go there to find somebody who sold butane in cans. the large Pakistani/Afghan population there is very ghetto-ised, from choice, I might add, and I'd rather not go looking there, thank you.

I use the slightly smaller cans from Poundstretcher, four for £4.99, as they seem to work in my gas-fired locos just fine. Also Warehouse Clearance, another lower-order 'everything cheap' store, sells the same stuff, same price.

I noticed at the Llanfiar show this year that the gas that was being sold by all the big players was actually more expensive than one of our DIY superstores - B&Q [think Lowes or Home Despot.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Why not use the "Gaz", butane/propane mix? We use it here and most prefer it. Ours is 70/30, 70%butane and 30% propane.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Martin, you can get butane in UK at Argos, you need CP250 cartridges, 
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3408252.htm
The same standard cartridges are used in Asia and sold across the world 
in the so called Asian stores. Do not use propane/butane mix, this is not
a safe option and practically all manufacturers warn you against this.
Many of the smaller locomotives have gas tanks right near the boiler and
filling them with propane/butane mix is simply dangerous. Accucraft
recently recalled tender gas tanks for K-28 and NGG16 Garratt gas tanks
as they were too weakly constructed for a scenario when people would
fill them to the top with butane and poor hot water over them. Imagine
if you had done the same thing with propane/butane mix. Or better not...
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to buy butane from the Chinese groceries for about $31 for a case of 28 cans. Now a case costs over $50 if you can find one. The store I used to get these at had NONE last time I was there. Another grocery down the street only had a few straggle sets of 4 cans for something like $7 or $8. I finaly found a new Chinese grocery that still handled these nice 8oz cans of pure butane. They had three cases only. They were $50+ each. I have no idea what is going on but it is increasingly hard to find butane anymore.


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Martin

Take a look at Ebay (UK) and you will find that if you are prepared to buy in bulk then just over £1 per can plus shipping. This isn't too bad. I guiess.


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## topshed (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for the help guys, looks like butane is going to keep getting rarer - but at least you've given me a few options. I don't mind using butane/propane mix during the winter so much, but I am aware that one or two of my locos are verrrry sensitive and just need the gas valve open a crack to get a good head of steam. On anything other than pure butane they would probably be completely uncontrollable! Maybe there is some way of utilising a full size 9 kilo butane cylinder - if so I haven't found it yet! 
Thanks again, 
Martin


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

there is some way of utilising a full size 9 kilo butane cylinder 

Maybe not a 9 kilo, but over here we have smaller cartridges for butane torches used by plumbers. 









I've seen a few conversions where the butane cylinder rides in the tender or a following car and feeds the burner - for ever!


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By topshed on 27 Sep 2009 05:34 AM 
Thanks for the help guys, looks like butane is going to keep getting rarer - but at least you've given me a few options. I don't mind using butane/propane mix during the winter so much, but I am aware that one or two of my locos are verrrry sensitive and just need the gas valve open a crack to get a good head of steam. On anything other than pure butane they would probably be completely uncontrollable! Maybe there is some way of utilising a full size 9 kilo butane cylinder - if so I haven't found it yet! 
Thanks again, 
Martin Hi Martin,
Is there any way you can decant from the 9 kilo cylinder to something smaller?
We only have propane in that size.
Regards,
Gerald


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## topshed (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Gerald, 
I don't know! I do know that large butane cylinders are available for caravans etc., and I thought there may be some mileage in buying in bulk! How you get the gas from a large cylinder into the kind of gas tank we have on our steamers is the real problem, one to which I suspect there is no solution.  Still, as long as I can get butane somehow I shall be happy!  
Martin


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

My wasted mind is a terrible thing to watch... 

Use Google maps to locate Asian grocery stores in the nearest metro area and start calling around. Works in the UK as well, I tried it. 

If a butane case was $31 then and $50 now, likely due in whole or in part to the rise in natural gas prices, doesn't that mean it will be $75 in the future - buy it now, store up and save later. The price rise is a heck of lot less than gasoline and both sure going higher over long term. 

Extract your own butane from natural gas... 


Rhetorical questions only - to stimulate the mind.


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know about the UK, but the 'caravans' (RVs) here in the US use Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG) which is primarily propane. Also, the 1lb torch cylinder referenced by Mr. Thornton above is another propane cylinder. I've never seen a butane one.

Locally, I've been buying my butane from an Asian market, although I have recently seen it at Ace Hardware and Target for slightly more $$.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Please, if you buy in bulk, be SURE you are storing it properly! You might also check with your local fire codes as to how much of this type of fuel you are allowed to store in a residential area.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

In the U.S., some Dollar stores still sell the 5.7 oz. containers for $1.00 plus tax. The silver cans work well, but with the yellow & red cans, you need an adapter as the spout fits right over the fill valve. 

Will


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

I have used the butane -- propane mix in all my gas engines for over 10 years with no problems. I bought 2 cases from Cross Creek Engineering the first time I went to Diamondhead. The only pure butane I have ever used is the Ronson Butane for filling lighters. I don't use it much because of expense. 

The following is copied from the Roundhouse web site and may be informative:

"Ordinary Butane or Iso-butane gas (as used in gas cigarette lighters) is the preferred fuel, though for economy, the larger canisters as used for blowlamps or camping stoves etc. are better. The larger canisters have an EN417 threaded self sealing valve on top and require a special adapter to couple up to the filler valve on the locomotive.
Mixed gasses, i.e. Butane with a proportion of Propane mixed in, are available, and may be used on current models (see details below) if straight Butane is unavailable. These come in a variety of mixes ranging from 90/10 to 60/40 with one of the most common being 70/30. The figures refer to the proportions of the mix i.e. 70/30 contains 70% butane and 30% propane. If using mixed gasses, always choose the one with the largest proportion of butane. The addition of propane slightly alters the gasses properties. This can make the burner a little more difficult to light when cold or after filling the gas tank. Always open the regulator very slowly when lighting, and only just sufficient for ignition to take place. Opening too much too soon may extinguish the flame until the burner reaches normal operating temperature.
Due to the higher storage tank pressure of mixed gasses, they should not be used in the following models. 


(1) All Roundhouse Beck locomotives.
(2) Early 'Lady Anne', 'Dylan', 'Old Colonial' and 'Charles Pooter' models with external gas firing,
(3) Early 'Lady Anne' and 'Dylan' models with rectangular gas tank in the right hand side tank.
(4) Any models with 1" square, vertically mounted gas tank in the cab.
(5) Early 'S.R. & R.L #24' and 'Fowler' with one piece rectangular gas tank.


Replacement gas tanks suitable for mixed gasses are available for models in catagories (5) & (6), enquire for further details."


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## trainmax (Feb 16, 2008)

I have 10 cases of butane the big cans. I think I may have went overboard with fuel. 
LOL I talked with the people at UPS and they said it can no longer be shipped by them.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

From previous go rounds on this it's been shown with mixed gas the propane burns off fairly rapidly and your left with butane and a equally rapid increase in percentage of butane; a corresponding reduced overall gas pressure. So the moral of the story is, buy mixed gas at the lowest amount of propane to butane you can find (i.e., 90/10, 80/20, 70/30, etc.) and feel safe that the higher gas pressure lasts only a short time. Or to say it another way, the longer you run with mixed gas the safer it gets. No being a chemist, physicist, or alchemist I cannot articulate the finer technical points. Consider this a paraphrasical(?, sp) head start for the curious.









Charts showing this declining propane to butane mix are available for Googlers. Maybe someone has quick reference to one. I'm too lazy to go find it since I think this is kind of another angels on the head of a pin spin it's been covered so many times







second only to steam oil, water, a vs. a, et. al., and never do all the archives matter. ( IMHO ) Not that I'm cynical, want to discourage inquiring minds, nor minimize safety mind you.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

This should be enough to satisfy your curiosity, if any, on butane/propane mixed fuels: http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 29 Sep 2009 04:15 PM 
This should be enough to satisfy your curiosity, if any, on butane/propane mixed fuels: http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm 
Jim: Great thanks for the reference. It gave me one very important new piece of information about liquid feed gas fueling - a windmill I have been chasing for a few years. The FAQ - Fuel Mixtures describes why with Propane/Butane mix gas the propane burns off first rapidly leaving only butane. But the FAQ goes on the describe liquid feed vs gas feed:


"The liquid feed is drawn from the bottom of the tank, in the liquid. This means it is drawing off propane and (iso)butane in a fixed ratio - that of the initial mixture. So the partial vapour pressures are not changing over time. In fact, the mixture will stay at the nominal ratio right to the very end. "


Funny this has never come up over the years in liquid feed gas fueling discussions or writings (that I remember). It's another significant benefit to a liquid feed gas fuel system. I generally consider a propane/butane mix a waste of money since the benefits are lost quickly with the propane loss. With this new piece of information P/B mix appears to be a viable alternative - although the benefits of a liquid feel system supplant the reasons for using a propane/butane mix. 


The new information is very timely - must be fate, the Gods smiling or both.


You learn something new every day.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 29 Sep 2009 04:15 PM 
This should be enough to satisfy your curiosity, if any, on butane/propane mixed fuels: http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm 

Maybe this is a good place to ask a question that has come up in front of me recently... 

I used to think that Butane was some how "inferior" to Propane. That it didn't get as hot as Propane.

I think I got this idea from reading postings on the web (here and in other Live Steam forums) by people that make boilers for our sized (and larger) Live Steam Locomotives. They always said that Butane does not get hot enough for Silver Soldering and that Propane would do for small jobs (but Acetylene was best for larger work). And there have been warnings to be careful using Propane to heat a boiler as it might tend to melt the boiler if it ran dry, whereas with Butane that was less of a possibility.

But just the other day I found a list of fire fuels and their Heat content. The list covers Coals, Electricity, Gases, Oils and Woods; listing several examples of each type and how many "Millions of BTUs" a given quantity of each can produce. You cannot use this list to compare differing types of fuels (Electricity to Gas for example) due to the non-relationship of the way quantities of these fuels are represented. But if you know the cost of the quantities and the efficiencies of the method of burning the fuel,then you can compare the cost per BTU.

Anyway, the list shows the values for both Butane and Propane and since they are both gasses and the quantities are of the same type a comparison can be made.

Butane has 3.261 million BTU/Mcf and Propane has 2.531 million BTU/Mcf... where Mcf is Thousands of Cubic Feet. That means to me that for a given quantity of gas, Butane would burn hotter than Propane.

I know the dangers of Propane producing higher pressures at elevated temperatures than Butane such that it requires a stronger container. And I realize that the cost per BTU is not taken into consideration here.

But I am wondering if I am misinterpreting the data. Does the use of Butane produce more heat than using Propane?

Anybody know the cost difference between same quantities of the two?


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

I tried the mix in my Regner Shay yesterday, with the temperature about 58F. On butane I could only maintain 1 Bar on the the gauge but the mix 
provided 2 Bar and a much happier run. 
The butane cost about $3 and the mix $5 for the same sized can. I think I'll stick with butane except for cool weather. 

Harvey C. 
SA1838


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Semper Vaporo, you are essentially correct. Both butane and propane have very similar energy density, almost identical per unit mass. But because butane is heavier than propane, per unit volume butane has more energy: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/NicoleWeathers.shtml However, I think the data you cite is not correct, the difference per unit volume between butane and propane is much smaller than the numbers you cite. Best, Zubi
PS what you are really looking for is not energy density but the adiabatic flame temperature. This again is very close between butane and propane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature (it is also much higher for acetylene, even though acetylene has MUCH lower energy density than butane and propane!!) Nevertheless, higher BTU's of propane in some cases make it more useful than acetylene despite of lower burning temperature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxy-fuel_welding_and_cutting


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