# Do folks operating steam do "switching?"



## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Another beginner question about steam: 
I'm curious to know if operators of live steam locomotives end up with layouts that facilitate a lot of switching and re-arranging of cars? I have seen electrified layouts that involve an extensive about of switching, rearranging of freight cars, and work in the sidings. Is steam typically different? Do steam operators prefer to run longer "main lines" and leave the switching and freight yard management to electrified switchers?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Some rough guesses, based on personal observations:

Electric Large Scale trains:
75% of hobbyists run their trains in a loop.
25% make railroads for switching.

Live Steam:
99% running trains in a loop.
1% switching.

It *can* be done with live steam of course..but very people do.
you need to set up the live steam locomotive with radio control..

Scot


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I mostly run but occasionally I do a little switching for fun, especially when setting up a train to pull or to drop a car or two if I have hooked up too many. I have radio control which does make it easier and more realistic.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack Verducci's Crystal Spring RR, has a really nice layout where they do live steam switching etc.... He has a great video about it. Worth getting. His operations are really cool with working water towers etc...... Im more of a roundy round guy.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

With a lot of live steam engines equipped with RC, it is possible to do fairly realistic switching. But based on personal experience, many of these same engines are prone to some degree of hydraulic lock after the engine is stopped for a few seconds, and getting the engine restarted either in forward or reverse is a bit slow or requires a five finger assist. So unless you have drain cocks also hooked up on RC which some folks do admittedly have, switching can be done but is generally not too satisfying in live steam. For those engines with RC which can make the switch in direction with no extra delays, switching is very realistic and adds a new dimension to the modeling experience. Now, we just need to be able to shrink down those brakemen to 1/32 or 1/20.3!!

Ross Schlabach


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I make up trains once in a while. The engine that works best for me is the Berkshire, I have R/C on the drain cocks which helps with the condensate. The Mikado is not as forgiving when you let it sit to throw a couple of switches.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found it a bit more difficult to do switching with Live Steam, compared to electric powered.

Trying to get a steamer to start can be a problem. Depending on the position of the pistons in the cylinders it might not be able to apply a lot of force to get started. You sometimes have to switch from forward to reverse (or vice versa) to get the "Motor" positioned such as to get a good supply of steam to the cylinders to get it moving in the desired direction. The same problem exists in the real world, too!

To compound matters, the tiny size of a model steamer means that it has to be in "PERFECT" tune to work well. In the real world of Steam Locomotives, a tenth of an inch error is minor compared to the total travel of a valve, but in the model world, that might BE the total travel. That much error might mean no steam is admitted to that cylinder for that part of the rotation of the wheels.

I have had a steamer so far out of tune that I could hear only one chuff per revolution of the wheels... i.e.: it was running on only 1/2 of 1 cylinder! An engine that far out of whack would only start from a standstill if that 1/2 of a cylinder were positioned to be in the power portion of the cycle... and that only occurs in 1 quarter of the rotation of the wheels (actually much less than that due to lead, lap and cutoff!).

You also need an engine that does not have "Slip Eccentrics"... i.e.: one that needs to put pushed in the desired direction over 1/2 a revolution of the wheels to set the valve timing for the desired direction.

It can be quite embarrassing to be standing there with the throttle wide open and switching from forward to reverse and back again and again, trying to get the loco*motive* to live up to the 2nd half of the title! If you have R/C control it is worse in that you have to sometimes reach over and give the engine a little boost! If you don't have R/C you can save face by tugging on the Throttle or Reverser Lever such as to nudge the engine and nobody will notice!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Is steam typically different? Do steam operators prefer to run longer "main lines" and leave the switching and freight yard management to electrified switchers?


Well, for a start, live steamers hardly ever leave things to "electrified switchers". I never get both out at once - if I'm on a track with electrics (battery r/c in my case) the live steamers are incompatible (different operating characteristics, etc., etc.)

I really enjoy switching with my live steamers. Once it is fired, I like to go collect the train, shuffle a few cars around, etc. I'll drop off half the consist during the run, if possible.

Unfortunately, many live steam "meets" are set up for running, so guys like me who don't have their own track can't do much switching! Portable tracks with 1/2 hour sign-ups are certainly not switching arenas.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I have personally found very few live steam tracks which are set up for switching ops (which is a shame). I have, on occasion, done some set-outs and pick-ups at the NSS on the big track early on before those tracks were occupied - either by steamers raising pressure or steamers cooling down. It's lots of fun imho, and there's nothing preventing one from doing so other than available sidings and spurs (I have never personally experienced the "starting" problems reported by others as, generally, the interval between the time one stops and the time one begins to move in the other direction are no longer than they are with an electric locomotive, which is far less than the time required for the cylinders to cool down enough to induce hydro-lock). OTHO, most live steam ops are very "hands-on" and unless one has R/C installed, everything is manual. Hence scenery and structures get in the way of access and so aren't included.

Bottom line, again imho, with a properly designed layout, there's no reason why switching ops can't be included in live steam running.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

What a wide range of helpful replies. I guess I can "have my cake and eat it too" if I put the thought and planning needed into a layout and have a realistic understanding of the limitations. I'm intrigued by the operational characteristics of live steam, however I know that personally I might like the challenge of having a "task at hand" to complete in terms of shuffling some cars around on a siding or small yard. On the raised track that I have been contemplating (in my head) I do not anticipate doing much scenery or landscaping. So any conflicts from those elements (scenery) on the layout would not be an issue. Manual operation of the switches and manual control of the train's direction would not be an issue (i like doing those operations manually). I'm guessing I might need radio control on the throttle in order to slow down and stop? Unless stopping is easier than I imagine. My preference would be to not have r/c. 

Do most people running steam without rc just go round and round until the fuel runs out? Or are they able to reach over and slow or stop the engine?
I will continue to read through the threads here and plan on attending some steam events when the weather warms up. 
Jeff


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Phippsburg Eric said:


> I mostly run but occasionally I do a little switching for fun, especially when setting up a train to pull or to drop a car or two if I have hooked up too many. I have radio control which does make it easier and more realistic.


Eric, I've seen some nice switching on the W&Q. Including at the 5:20 mark here:


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Just really an education question. Does s model having working
drain cocks help any for a potential hydraulic lock?

Lorna


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Lorna said:


> Just really an education question. Does s model having working
> drain cocks help any for a potential hydraulic lock?
> 
> Lorna


Slide valves (AKA: "D" valves) will lift off their seat to release water in the cylinder (creating a condition affectionately known as "Slobber stack"  ) mitigating Hydro-lock and so do not benefit from cylinder cocks as much as Piston valved engines, where water in the cylinders can only be released by repeated setting of the valve gear between Forward to Reverse (plus some leakage around the power piston and the valve piston if they are well worn, but it not much can get around them on most engines!) so cylinder cocks are a good thing to have, but not many engines have them.

Manually forcing an engine to move when hydro-locked can bend piston rods and or main rods (severe damage!), so it is best approached gently with lots of alternate forward and reverse setting. I have seen an engine liquid-locked on excessive steam oil and that one required loosening of the cylinder covers before the oil would come out.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

These two engines appear to have something along the lines of "drain cocks":
This one has what it calls a "drain spout":





Roundhouse Billy with auto drain cocks installed :


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as you don't have a lot of scenery in the way and your sidings are all within easy reach, I don't see any reason why you couldn't switch with manually-operated live steam. The downside to that is that with the short back-and-forth moves involved in switching, you'll be following your engine with your hand on the throttle pretty much the whole time, at which point you could end up asking yourself if you might just as well be shoving the cars around by hand. With R/C you can stand back and enjoy the sight of your locomotive doing its thing, with its cab roof on. It's all a matter of personal preference though, some people prefer the visceral experience of hands-on operation, some prefer the ability to drive their locomotives from on board (vicariously anyway) with R/C. Personally, I have some of both that I can run depending on what I feel like doing on any given steamup day, or what kind of layout I'm running on.

Keep in mind also with live steam that you're limited on time before the fuel and/or water runs out. Some of the larger engines like the Accucraft Rio Grande K's will happily run for an hour or more at a time, but a standard gauge switcher might only get you about half an hour between refills. Having some means of pumping water into the boiler while it's under steam (such as an axle pump, tender pump, or Goodall valve) will help.


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Do most people running steam without rc just go round and round until the fuel runs out?

Hi Underdog
I am sure it will not be long before you change your name to 'topdog' steamwise' that is!
Your round and round surmise is a popular assumption of a non steamer if I may say so.
A live steam engine is not a press button affair. Your dealing with a sensitive animal and if you are it's keeper.
there are symptoms to be recognised and dealt with accordingly.
To the casual observer it may be just going round, but to the guy in charge he knows whats going on in there just by the sound and visual effects.
This comes from experience. Play trains by all means but remember it is your personal performance that really matters.
Happy (future) steaming


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Do most people running steam without rc just go round and round until the fuel runs out? Or are they able to reach over and slow or stop the engine?


Reaching over on a layout with 10' radius curves is a bit tricky. Hence we tend to run our trains from inside the layout when at a public live steam meet. A lot of my running (as I don't have my own track) is on portable layouts where entertaining the public is part of the mission. So we do tend to go round and round - especially with an engine that doesn't have r/c and therefore is tough to stop/start.

IMHO it is a lot easier to stop-start a steam engine with r/c. You get much more control and you aren't trying to move a (hot) lever to a particular position. As alluded to above, many live steamers will require you to lift the cab roof if you want to 'control' them - hence the value of r/c where you can stand back a little and worry about couplers, etc.

My early experience on a hilly track with an Accucraft C-16 taught me the value of r/c. It is fast little engine and ended to run and run - so I had to run and run to keep up with it and stop it running away down the hills !


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*switching operations with live steam manual control*

Yes, we do with manual control. RC control can be a very good assistance...


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Semper - Thank you. Interesting. 

Most of what I am looking to do is just running. 

In that video with the Roundhouse locomotive did I see water leaking out from the cylinder caps? (Bubbling)

Now another question. I am looking at one of the Accucraft geared locomotives.
The newly announced Heisler says in has drain cocks.
The Climax is listed as being D-valved
The Shay is listed as piston valved.

Just on a theoretical, then the Heisler should be the easiest to get started and the Shay the hardest (piston valved). However, the pistons on the Shay should warm up fast it would seem to me since they are close to the firebox or am I missing something.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I do and it's a lot of fun. And it breaks the boredom of just going round and round.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Lorna said:


> Now another question. I am looking at one of the Accucraft geared locomotives.
> The newly announced Heisler says in has drain cocks.
> The Climax is listed as being D-valved
> The Shay is listed as piston valved.
> ...


 
Is there anything in the firebox? Steamers with butane fuel burn inside the boiler flue, and don't have a true firebox per se.

I don't have an answer, but I wonder what actually contributes to heat-up rate? Less metal, more insulation, working pressure, efficiency of the superheater, heat loss once the superheater exits the flue, volume of steam through the engine ...

Maybe you should get one of each!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Most live steam layouts are elevated to waist height. Do the the electric guys ever do that?


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

Jeff,

I plan on starting my backyard layout this year and I have designed it for operation from the start. It will be operated as a point to point but will be able to support continuous running for steam-ups. It will be a raised walk-a-round as I do not plan on using RC for control. It's all in the design.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

I do switching with radio-controlled live steam locos on my mainly ground level line every time I use it!


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

I'll be keeping a close eye out for the "switching" steamers. Having even a small yard for switching is something I would like to be able to plan for in terms of operation. Maybe a loop that loops back across with a double straight away and siding (passing) in-between and a small (very accessible) yard would provide a nice combination of switching and longer runs for steam (while still being able to follow the engine). Maybe those slightly larger scale 7/8th live steamer like the Quarry Hunslet with the open controls would be easier to switch. In terms of the ability to operate as a switcher it would be of interest to know if smaller engines like accucraft Emma have an advantage over something larger like Accucraft's planned SRRL #6 Forney 0-4-4 with 3/4" bore cylinders, slide valve and stephenson valve gear. Are the size of the drivers of relevance when considering the easy of controlling (slowing/ reversing) movement in switching yard? If I end with something industrial like "Emma" for a first locomotive, a switching yard would seem to lend itself to some element of realism in terms of the operational theme. Maybe.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff--

My larger engines seem to be easier to control than the smaller. The Emma is easier than the Ruby,Roundhouse better than Frank S. This may have as much to do with the manufacture of the models as with their size though.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Phippsburg Eric said:


> -- My larger engines seem to be easier to control than the smaller. .


 Have you had a chance to operate the Fairymead prototype? any firsthand experience with regard to "control" from chance encounters with Fairymead?


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

It has been almost a year since I saw it but it seems to be a very smooth runner which is what seems to make starting and stopping in a controlled way easier...I hope to be able to definitively answer soon (after mine comes and the ice melts!)


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a live-steam switching session I did last summer...






The Accucraft 2-cylinder Mich-Cal # 2 Shay is controlled via a single-servo Spektrum RC system; the servo controls the *reverse lever only. *(On the Accucraft Shays, if you remove the reverse quadrant position latch, the reverse lever can *also double as the throttle *by how far in or out you move it).  The Shay is also equipped with Kadee #779 couplers; I found it necessary to mount the front coupler with a small block of wood between it & the pilot to insulate the coupler from the heat. (About a year before, the Shay suddenly came to an *abrupt halt while running  *; when I went to investigate, I found the hot pilot had caused the *plastic around the mounting screws to melt  *, dropping the coupler onto the ties!  I also have a couple of Kadee magnetic ramps installed; one on the lumber mill siding, another on the run-around track of the logging camp. As you can see in a couple of spots, it *is *possible to use the Kadee "delayed uncoupling" feature with live steam & "kick" a car back a bit from the ramp.  *Tom*


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Nice video, Tom!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

To switch or not to switch?
I think we all, just as you are, spent a great deal of time thinking about what it would be like and what we would do switching to and running live steam. And all from the perspective of electric trains. From my experience and that of most others, live steam, actually doing it, is nothing quite like you try to imagine. It's just different, night and day almost (ok maybe it's me, probably, no actually it is as I'm sure a number here will attest - I'm really good at thinking anything to a near death experience. Some should never have come anywhere near alive in the first place.). 

Maybe a really close analogy is experience with cars, autos. It's the difference between watching a car move along a street and driving a car. There's a lot more to do and think about driving, and that's not even beginning to consider the feel of it. Granted we can't actually sit in the cab of our live steamers nevertheless... It's not just a train, it's a Steam Engine; the smell, oil on hands under nails, ya da ya da... Yes, watching an auto go round and round an oval looks pretty boring unless you the race car driver. 

So it's romantic and romance. I thought about what it would be like and what I would do for months, and months. All the while, what engine to start with? Layout to build? Track shape? Switching? So on...

Fugetaboutit. It not going to be what you imagine it to be. It's going to be different, you're going to be different. It changes you. You will never be the same person. No one who has not operated a real steam engine can really understand it. No one who has done it can explain it to someone ho hasn't. I guess the absolute best comparison would be like trying to explain sex. The simple explanation is the best; it feels fantastic, you'll always want more and it's near impossible to live without it. Beyond that, well...

Personally, I find live steam switching boring, tedious, frustrating. Plus, steaming is best practiced with friends and other steamers. My experience, purpose built live steam layouts don't really work for switching since the "yard" (steam up bay) is where everyone preps their engines and switching is at cross purposes. Plus I'd much rather be talking with other's and watching steam locomotives run. 

As far as Jack Verduci's layout. His is about running a real railroad not switching, operations. 3-5 guys running locos at the same time on the same mainline communicating through headsets and one person on a deck overlooking the layout directing traffic. If you've tried it it can be a real kick in the ass; you have to keep your wits about you particularly on his layout since it's relatively small, tight with steep grades. If you are not running a Shay, on one particular hill a helper is required. Don't worry, one is always standing by at the ready at Foggy Bottom. Jack's layout definitely does not allow for large locos at all.

There's a real distinction, switching vs operations. I think Jim Stapleton has done operations a few times on his extreme layout. Operations on a large layout like his with large mainline locomotives, that I'd like to try. 

Just a couple of pennies thrown haphazardly.


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## steamrocks (Mar 9, 2014)

Underdog said:


> Another beginner question about steam:
> I'm curious to know if operators of live steam locomotives end up with layouts that facilitate a lot of switching and re-arranging of cars? I have seen electrified layouts that involve an extensive about of switching, rearranging of freight cars, and work in the sidings. Is steam typically different? Do steam operators prefer to run longer "main lines" and leave the switching and freight yard management to electrified switchers?


Operation in live steam? I do it all the time. My garden railroad is based around it. I have logging and mining operations with a logging camp and a mill, as well as a mine and an ore dock to take the ore to a smelter by barge. Present railroad is not large, all switching except in the yard is trailing point, but a lot of freight as well as passenger operation is done. There is a turntable for point-to-point operation. The railroad is all live steam. 4 Locos and a steam streetcar.


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## steamrocks (Mar 9, 2014)

*Switching in live steam*

FOrgot to mention in the last post: Switching for some reason uses up a lot more water than just running. It must be the start and stop. Radio control helps, too. I am all gas fired, and I imagine someone doing this with a coal fired loco would find it really challenging. The blower would be on all the time.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Tom Lapointe said:


> Here's a live-steam switching session I did last summer... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnqTNyVagPE&feature=share&list=UU16ll7Zsaf3MDKXajV761UA


Thanks for sharing that video. That is some extensive switching.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Chris Scott said:


> Fugetaboutit. ... not going to be what you imagine it to be. It's going to be different......


I may slowly be coming around to this perspective (Although I could still watch Eric's W&Q videos endlessly).
If the "steaming" component of running a locomotive has appeal then I would be inclined to seek out an engine and track layout with characteristics that closely align with those goals. Scale and modeling might be less significant and "running" (and possibly building) might take precedence. Your comments made me start questioning what direction I should be contemplating. Probably need to start "sleeping around" to explore the differences.


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Underdog, quick question. It would appear that the Shay is controlled with a single servo through the Johnson bar, is that correct? 
Lorna


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

I was wondering when you were going to weigh in in this. 

I keep remembering the time I had a business trip to Chicago, and I brought my Geoffbuilt Shay on the plane, (that was back when you could bring a live steamer in your carry-on luggage). After work hours all my fellow workers went out on the town, after duty hours, for some whittles and grog. I went over to your house, and we ran steam 'till the wee hours. I had more fun than they did.

Good to see you again @ DH. Don't miss any more DH's.


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## Underdog (Jan 31, 2014)

Lorna said:


> Underdog, quick question. It would appear that the Shay is controlled with a single servo through the Johnson bar, is that correct?
> Lorna


Lorna, I think this question is directed to Tom Lapointe. While I cannot answer this question (my experience is appalling ; although I am recklessness scouring the forum for information) I think that you are correct. I am sure someone will chime in with information on the Shay.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Lorna said:


> Underdog, quick question. It would appear that the Shay is controlled with a single servo through the Johnson bar, is that correct?
> Lorna


Lorna, the answer to your question is yes. . The Accucraft Mich-Cal #2 Shay came with a factory-drilled hole in the fuel oil bunker to accommodate a servo pushrod, & the upper end of the reverse lever was predrilled to accept a standard RC aircraft clevis.  The only mechanical change was to back out the screw that latched the lever in forward--neutral-reverse so the servo could move it continuously. The original throttle knob was left unchanged in my install & is used mainly as a "master steam on/off " control. ALL the RC gear (nicad battery pack, servo, 2.4 GHz. Spektrum receiver, servo, & a tiny on/off switch) is contained in the "water" tank & "oil fuel bunker"; the battery charge connector is accessed via the water tank fill hatch, & I've also added LED head & backup lights. . Tom


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## Steamer91 (Oct 13, 2011)

*To Switch or Not to Switch? That be the question methinks...*

I personally do an occasional amount of switching (shunting in UK speak) with my manually operated locos when I can get away with it, usually when I'm visiting other layouts that have decent sidings that aren't tied up with other engines being steamed up and/pr cooled down, although I intend to put a siding or two on my home layout that I'm building to give my line a bit of purpose.

It is easier to just push the cars with your hands, but by no means is it impossible to do with a manually operated live steam locomotive, at least in my experience, and often as not I've played about bunting cars around the "yard" whilst the main line(s) were tied up with other traffic and I wanted to run too.

Both of my live-steam engines are switchers, one an 0-4-0T "Ruby" and the other an Accucraft AML USRA 0-6-0 tender engine, so it's appropriate enough work for them, but in practice I find my Ruby the superior engine for the task, since the controls are easier to get to and it fits around tighter corners. In fact, I often refer to my 0-6-0 as my "road engine" since it's larger, able to run for longer and pull more cars, and my home line will be a bit of branch line anyway, according to my thought-up history for it, so I won't be having very big engines anyway unless they're visitors during steamups.

Usually though, I end up just taking my engines out on the main and running them around in circles until they run out of fuel, for fuel and so on is a bit expensive for the thing to essentially be standing still the whole time, blowing steam up the safeties instead of sending it up the stack after going through the cylinders. I will do switching from time to time as the mood takes me, especially picking up and setting off cars at various "industries", but it's a rare treat for me to do a real "shunting turn" as the Brits would say.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

All of you need to come up to Staver Locomotive in Portland, OR this month and see a layout that we run on using a lot sidings all day long. Great layout to do switching on.

http://staverlocomotive.com/whatwedo/steamup.html


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

One thing that caught my eye on the EBT 12 was the compartment in the
back of the tender that looks big enough to hold batteries and a receiver for
servos for the throttle and johnson bar

Lorna


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