# Fall ECLSTS show report - underwhelmed



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

All the signs were there that we shoulda stayed home. The weather sucked. Then one of us managed to bump the power locks with the keys inside half a mile from home when Kim insisted on stopping for coffee (A brisk walk in the rain to crawl through a window to get the spare keys is a _great_ way to start the day!) 

Anyway, the show was in Memorial Hall. The older one in the front corner. The fairgrounds itself was pretty packed because there were motorcycle races (in the rain!), and something else going on in Toyota Hall. In front of Memorial Hall there was lots of parking, and it's only a bit after lunchtime - another_ real _bad sign! BUT we'd come 200+ miles to see a show, so we ponied up $10 apiece, and went in. 


I'll give them credit on this, the layout right inside the front door was absolutely gorgeous. It even had a pond and mill stream with running water and a cutaway of a huge sawmill with detailed interior. .. I took some pictures of it, but with a film camera, so they'll have to wait until I finish the roll.


In the hall to the right there were 6 running sectional layouts which ranged from pretty good, to bare track. Parts of it impressed me. Some of it was meh. (I'm my own toughest critic too, sorry) The _only_ thing I'm gonna say in the way of criticism is on those people's efforts is that Lemax houses are O scale, not G. A bare section might have been less visually jarring than the oversized figures in miniatureland. The rest of that hall consisted of a bunch of empty tables along the wall. No clue what, if anything, they were there for.


The left hall was for vendors. They had the center curtain down to make the room smaller (to make it look full?) A B'mann display was there, the new little logging donkey is fabulous, Thomas and Percy are worlds above the Lionel ones. The new long caboose was on display with the roof off... I'd drool over it, but it's too just big for my layout. There were several vendors with figures, some had stuff I hadn't seen before and wanted, but weren't in the budget.-- we spent quite a long time looking through the Just Plain Folks display, especially the $3 tables. Charles Ro was there with a bunch of USA stuff in boxes, but his display racks were already being stripped to go home (with 4+ hours of the show to run.) In fact that was pretty much the story for a large part of the vendor hall. People packing up or already gone at 2PM. One guy snarled at what we assume was his grandson to "Stop talking and get busy packing!" Other than that there were bunches of garden variety Aristo stuff, Bachmann stuff, and even LGB stuff all at 'meh' to 'ouch' prices. One vendor broke off talking to another long enough to urge us to "Buy! Buy! Buy!" -- I didn't tell him that he had nothing that I wanted OR could afford. I went mostly looking for 8 pairs of budget priced trucks and detail parts like injectors, we BOUGHT half a dozen figures..... The stuff I needed just wasn't there at all or is MUCH cheaper on evilbay.


All in all, the show would have been a bargain at half the price. 




Then the motels were all full with motorcycle people so we had to drive to Carlisle to find an affordable room.... complete with a creepy guy in the next unit hitting on Kim and then banging on the window at 11:30pm. So I drove home in the dark and the rain. Will somebody PLEASE say something to convince me that it's better in the spring?


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Mik, Sorry your experience was not so good. Mine was terrific. I am sitting here looking at a pile of goodies, hoping the rain will stop so I can go to work on the RR. I arrived at the show about 10AM and left about 1:30 Saturday. I thought there were some great buys, but I guess it depends on what you are looking for. Please see my post under Large Scale Events, I listed some prices. My friend riding with me, had even more stuff than I did. He is new to LS, and this was his first show and he had a ball. He really did not want to leave. 

We enjoyed the thousands of Harleys in town. Hey this is the home of Harley Davidson, and that had to be a major boost to the economy of York. 

Will they do this again??? The vendors will detemine that. I don't know where else I can go in the fall and find that much LS stuff under one roof. 

Come back again in the spring. Hopefully your 2nd experience will be better. Until then, keep the trains running, and hopefully no creeps knock on your window tonight. Ouch.

Tom


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

There might have been some relative 'bargains' on huge, expensive stuff, I'm not up on the current pricing since I can't run them. But there was a dearth of affordable stuff that wouldn't look ridiculous on a small layout..... $99 for a used Stainz that's missing some parts, anyone? $79-$149 EACH for a 4 wheel LGB Euro flat? $39 for run of the mill B'mann freight cars (The same ones I've seen for $25 at Greenberg shows)? And the survey asked for suggestions of what could be done to entice new people into the hobby? Lol

Expected too much? Maybe_
_
_
_


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Spring show is much better but its the same thing year after year, im hoping next year they change it up a bit #1 maybe move the vendors around so its different #2 need some new dissplays as they have the same displays in the same spots every year, at the very least move them around so the show seams different but new displays might help traffic at the show.
The displays that are there are awsome but when youve seen it a couple of times it gets kinda old to look at especially if you drive 7 and half hours to the show. Maybe the guys that live close dont mind but i havent gone in 4 years cause of the same old same. every year some one videos the show and its always the SAME........... Come on Harry and Aristo, cant you try something a little different in the spring? might help with the # of people attending the show..... And another thought would be to do away with that new show car for the spring and come up with a new paint design cause that one in my opionion is just ugly.....


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Mik - sorry that the show was anticlimactic, but thanks anyway for the wonderfully descriptive and funny post. (BTW - there's a local ordinance in Carlisle mandating the presence of at least one creepy guy per three motels.) Sadly, I've never completely understood the Harley mystique - I used own several Ducatis, though - so I can imagine it didn't help matters much for you. That said, it's not for me to judge other people's passions - I try to be happy that they're enjoying life. That said, the spring ECLSTS is absolutely magnificent. Numerous layouts and every vendor in the industry tries their best to get there - deals abound. Last year I managed to sell a 2-cyl Accucraft Shay to someone in San Francisco via Jonathan of RCTrains and buy a wonderful Accucraft 0-6-0 within the span of an hour. Lots of advice is available and it's definitely the place to pick up the rare and unusual item. 
 
In the same vein as your advice to me after my dad's passing - don't make up your mind about anything too quickly - I'd suggest you not let this experience color too much your opinion about the spring ECLSTS. It is a must see.
 
Regards, 
 
Jonathan


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

From what I was told in a phone conversation this afternoon there were some wild deals at the end of the day Saturday! 
LAO


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ltotis on 27 Sep 2009 01:45 PM 
From what I was told in a phone conversation this afternoon there were some wild deals at the end of the day Saturday! 
LAO 
NOT surprised by that. Many of the dealers had _that_ look when I was there. You know, the tired, haggard, hangdog look that says, "I could have lost less money this weekend if I had just stayed home and flushed $50 bills down the toilet."


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

If U had the scratch, there were some deals to be had from the git-go Friday morning, and they got a lot better 
Saturday afternoon... The $29 Evans boxcars, and the $125 LGB Genesis locos were just a couple of examples 
of what I took advantage of.. 
Paul R...


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Have to totally disagree with you, the prices were much much better ( I had a post comparing similar items bought in spring and fall show but it got deleted for some reason), no waiting in line, no getting bumped into every 5 seconds, and much more relaxed. 

My main reason for going was to buy stuff so maybe thats why I liked the show beter, cant wait for next year's show.


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## bruce a m (Jan 2, 2008)

I was at the show on friday it was a good time and a good show i am glade i was at the show Bruce


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Guys, It was the 1st one. It will get better. 
LAO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The guys on the Aristo forum are making comments about the negativity on this thread. 

I think the thread is honest impressions. by people who went, and honest suggestions for improving the East Coast show in general, no matter which date. 

Seems that the show had fewer people, (expected as a new date), but prices were pretty aggressive. 

How that is negative I don't know. Of course maybe we are supposed to handing out bottles of Kool Aid. 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

You have to consider the source Greg. You can't say anything negative over there.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What's sad is one of the people "joining in" in the mls bash comments is a regular over here... think he would have the guts to speak his mind here in an open forum. 

I guess that show is the main "Home Turf" of Aristo, gotta suck up. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Kool AID I LOVE kool AID.............HE HE HE..*


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

These Kool aiders dont have a clue....... but yet they come here to spread there KOOL AID venom







Game on boys game on.....

I will have to pushem back to the Polkyman forumn ...... WHERE THE KOOL AIDERS BELONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Sorry its my nite off HE HE HE


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## tc_mg_trains (Aug 9, 2009)

I've heard pros and cons about the show, however, more cons. I attended the February show two years ago and WOW, very impressed with all of the layouts, great prices, etc. It looks like they are shooting themselves in the foot with the two shows (similar to what GATS did to themselves). If it and fixed, don't broke it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's see the Narrow Gauge convention in Colorado Springs towards the end of April, the National Garden Railroad Convention, Denver in July, etc. Way too much competition. They need to stick to the once a year show. It worked well!!!!!!!!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Negativism? or is it constructive criticism? Smells like Washington DC type spin, if you aren't 100% gung ho for something then you're just trying to ruin it.....

Constructive comments I'm going to make... as if anybody would listen. - *1*. if the show runs till 6 then the vendors shouldn't be tearing down to leave at two. Or they should have to pay extra to come back. It's simply a crock of $%#& to expect people to pay full price to see empty tables.You aren't doing the customers a favor by taking their money. It's the other way around. * 2.* Please, please, PLEASE, SOMEBODY bring more detail and replacement pieces parts. Not everybody needs another loco, more whole cars or even complete trucks. If Ozark or Trackside were there, I missed them, and they missed getting my money. Aristo, B'mann, HLW consider bringing your spares bins! *3*. Try a different vendor layout. Some of those narrow aisles and dead ends were a traffic problem waiting to happen, especially if someone was in a wheelchair or otherwise not quite agile. *4*. Quit acting 'superior', LSOL and the Aristo forums are NOT the only large scale gathering places. In fact, if you asked, I bet people who attended who hang there regularly are in the distinct minority. Decide whether you're going to have it as a public show, or a private 'club" gathering. If it's public, then kwitcherbellyakin if it's discussed elsewhere even if people aren't gushing and singing Kumbaya about everything. Pay attention instead of getting defensive, and you might actually learn sumptin.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Parkins on 27 Sep 2009 11:19 AM We enjoyed the thousands of Harleys in town. Hey this is the home of Harley Davidson, 


Tom

If my geography is correct, the ECLSTS show was nowhere near Milwaukee, WI, the home of William S. Harley and Arthur Davidson and the Harley-Davidson Motor Company.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I think Aristo deserves credit for trying it. You want to build the hobby? Doing it the same way you always did isn't going to work. They tried something a little new. No need to get a rope. I liked it better than the Spring show, even though there were fewer vendors, because it was less crazy. But I'm just one guy and in the end it's how the retailers did that matters most. Was it worth their time? Don't know. I did my part and spent some dough. 

I completely agree that it would be great to have suppliers for parts. I was very sorry Warrior Run locomotive works wasn't there--they usually have racks of Ozark and Trackside parts, and it's great to be able to actually see the parts before buying. But it's not going to happen unless there's demand, and a Fall show is one way to tell if there's demand. 

Ok, people should not be breaking down early--agreed. But what else should be different? So why don't we try to think of alternatives. What would be a better way to do this? 

You want to see different layouts? Those layouts are all done by volunteer labor, by regional clubs. If you want to see more and different layouts I think the only way is to do it your self. Nick, you love really large engines--bring some down and set them up? There was nobody running a USA Big Boy, or an MTH Challenger or Triplex. Start the "large loco league" and set up a track. 

My personal feeling is that they way to build the hobby is garden centers--it's a mystery to me why I don't see starter sets in garden centers more often.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"They tried something a little new." A bit of history....they had a "fall" show prior in the early years and it did not have good attendance.


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

By the way, there is a Harley plant in York PA also and a major Harley gathering there last weekend. Also, the show ended at 4 on Saturday, not six which probably had something to do with the vendors packing up at 3:30. And I believe that bare track with nothing else on it, is for live steam. I enjoy this forum as much as anyone, but really some of the comments I have read here, sounded like they were from people who didn't even attend the show. It was what it was. A good gathering of LS train people, lots of vendors, and some layout exhibits, and some of the usually good selections and prices that we also see at the Spring show, which is always the last weekend in March. Pass the Kool Aid. 
Paul


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 29 Sep 2009 04:49 AM 
"They tried something a little new." A bit of history....they had a "fall" show prior in the early years and it did not have good attendance. 
How long ago was "the early years?" Just wondering. Guessing early 90s? 


Also if you want mainlin, 1:29/1:32 parts, direct your inquiries here


The GAL line 

Here's a new company trying to start a line of kits and parts. tell 'em what you'd like to see


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

My comments were intended to try to make the show more apealing, not tear it down but of course some guys get over to the other forum and just have to blow everything out of proportion becuase there brand loyal and they know that no comments demded not helpful or seamed as critasism are removed ASAP so why BOTHER going into detail about what could make the show better, when in my opionion a lot of people are just happy to go along with the same old same old..... but thats goiing to kill the show in the end cause if you dont change you get left behind.....Aristocraft has my email and they do know how to get a hold of me if they want some constructive ideals to make the show better for all and increase large scale as a whole... And Mike you are correct about the starter sets, i think that they are getting a bit pricey and that may be why we dont see as many out there.

Two final thoughts, i aplaud Brian D for trying to do something different at the show, although i dont know why his seminar did go on but it would have been something different.
Also they must change the new show car as i dont think it going to sell well, ive never heard of the rd name that on the new hopper and i dont think most others have heard of it as well.


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Interesting thread. I attended the show Fri got there about 10.30 not to crowded but it picked up as the day went on. One vender that was not there was Clem O jevick. The reason, he has a stand at the Bloomsburg fair. Clem has a great selection of parts, ozark, trackside, and hartland, his layout wasn't there also. 

As for the show I and my bud Ron liked the fact that you could talk to the venders, no one was in a rush, no one plowing into you like at the spring show. There wher lots of deals to be had. 

Just how do you make the show better?? I have been at all of the shows since they where moved to York. Most of the shows had the same vender's and layouts.

Talked with the Bachman rep and was told that the new Aristo Revo board would plug into the K27 socket!! This was news to me.

I also talked to Mr L Polk and was told that the board in the K was a copy of the Aristo board and he gave bchman permishion to use it. He also said the revo board would plug right into with the k27 and would work with track or battery power. Now im really confused, I thought Mr Ames made the bachman socket?? 

Anyway the Thomas sets and the Forney should be here befor Christmas.

The show car sold out by two o'clock on Sat. so it mus have been a half decent crowd.

Chuck


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

if the show runs till 6 then the vendors shouldn't be tearing down to leave at two. 

I thought the reason they stopped opening on Sunday was so the vendors could get home without tearing down at 2pm!


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

As working stiff & I've made this compalint to Lewis on his site before and as someone who has been on the other side of the table at shows all over western NY at one point. A Friday to Saturday show just doesn't work for me. Add in the travel time and if i got there at 2pm Saturday to closing vendors I'd be demanding my entry money back and then some. Back when I worked for a hobby shopp the show organizers told us when adn what we could do or we weren't allowed back the answer I got years ago from Aristo was that the vendors demnded a Friday Saturday show so THEY hd travel time. I geuss they aren't intersted in my money then are they? This is an observation from someon who still ahs to get to an ECLSTS BECAUSE of the DATES! 

Chas


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Couple of things. the "Kool Aid" talk is wearing thin. If a person came on this site for the first time, read that and remembered the people who in some cases were "Forced" to drink it in the mass murder/suicide in Jonestown they would leave the site wondering what type of perople were on here. 

In regards to vendors not having parts I suggest you call them and request that they bring parts to the show. If enough peorple call them they will consider it. If they bring it and no one purchases them or if they don't sell enough to cover the costs of pulling parts, packing them up, shipping them and then a way to display them properly don't expect to them to bring them again. Bringing Pre-boxed rolling stock, engines, buildings, etc., etc. is cheaperand easier to deal with. 

The live steam display has little or no scenery. Always has been that way. I prefer the Friday/Saturday format for the show when I am there with the CCTGG Display. Easier to drive home on a Sunday than Monday. It ends up being just two days rather than 2.5 if you consider they used to open the doors on Friday nite as well. 

On getting more and varied dispalys at the show I put a group from Massachusetts in touch with Harry as a result they were at the show and from what I was told were invited back. 

If you want to see a specific vendor there contact them and ask them to go or why they won't go. 
Right now there aren't many Large scale only show on the East Coast. We will probably NEVER see a NGRC in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic states in at least in the next 5 years. At least we have a show that we on the East Coast can drive to. I don't see any of the other manufacturers stepping up to sponsor one. Franky, I can understand why they wouldn't. 
BTW, Sending an email with recommendations works better than posting it on a public site.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Wow cant believe all the negativity about a very good show, if you take into account that just about any other train show you go to will have maybe 4 or 5 g scale items shoved into a corner at best (yea yea I know spring show bla bla bla ). Its great to have another chance to get the things I didnt know I "needed" before. 

I have to agree with the other poster about talking to vendors before hand. If you need something specific and you Don't contact them, well thats on you then. I prepare my list of "needs" in advance for the show and email the vendors with what I am looking to purchase at said show, and guess what I have yet to receive an email back saying "No I dont want to bring that item so I can sell it to you" lol. I have never gotten a "needed" item using this method. 

As for all the aristo bashing, just dont get that either. The Polks are some of the nicest people I have ever met. They will bend over backwards to help you and go out of the way to accommodate just about anything you can ask of them. To be able to have this level of personnel service from the heads of a major manufacturer is something I have not experienced anywhere else. Scott has Always gone way way over the top to help me with any issues I have had. 

I can understand that some of the things they make are not the way you would like them made, or not as good as someone elses. In those cases I just buy the OTHER guy's stuff. But for the prices they charge and the great special deals and unheard of customer service they are doing a very good job IMO.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Although I wasn't there, I can say one negative thing about the show. Since it was held the same weekend as Marty's, some had a tough decision which way to go. Maybe deconflicting the dates in the future would help. 

On the positive side, IMHO, anytime there is a gathering of Large Scale users, layouts and vendors, it is a good thing. Even if I am not able to buy anything, I try to get around to most vendors and thank them for coming and hope they come again. 

It's all about the trains. Doesn't matter the accuracy of scale, what powers them, who sells them, etc. They're trains. 

Keep it a happy hobby.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Flavor Aid, not Cool Aid.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Why didn't I 'call ahead' about parts? 2 reasons. One, we weren't sure we were even GOING until about 8PM Friday, when I got off work. And two, the information I had about the show was sketchy second hand info because they don't seem to care to advertise it here, I don't DO that 'other place', and only visit the Aristo forum about twice a year, since my stuff is mostly LGB.

IS pointing out that paying $10 x 2 (after driving 5 hours) to see empty tables and more than a few vendors (and some exhibitors) packing up felt just a BIT overpriced 'being negative'? Then they DESERVE it. It IS a legitimate gripe. If the show runs till 4, 6, or whenever, and the vendors signed a contract agreeing to that, then they'd better abide by it, or there should be a darn good reason for them to pack early (illness, etc.) -- or the promoter needs to take steps to enforce the contract. (Do that at a Greenberg show and they'll cancel ALL your future reservations).... The only other option should be to offer free admission after a certain time. PERIOD.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No reason to start bringing in Aristo bashing, but posts were prompted by MLS bashing on the Aristo site. 

Wikipedia defines: The phrase Drinking the Kool-Aid means to become a firm believer in something, to accept an argument or philosophy wholeheartedly or blindly. 

Many people don't even remember Jonestown, but that's neither here nor there, this is the accepted meaning of the phrase now. 

The blind leading the blind is not about blind people anymore, it's about people not knowing things instructing others that do not know. 

The phrase is appropriate, when we get reasonable, balanced statements here, backed up by fact, where the other forum says you cannot say negative things, it's not allowed. I know. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I would have taken my complaints to the show management about the dealers shutting down early. You might have gotten some or all of your money back. If the Aristo site wants to edit bad talk about their products that is their perogative as they OWN the site just as SHAD owns this one and can and will edit out what he feels needs to be edited out. It is no different than what any site owner has the right to do. MIK I didn't say you in particular should have called ahead for parts. What was meant by my comment was that if that is something you want to see at the show then let the vendors/ manufacturers know that. If enough people do that they will consider bringing it. If no one buys any of it they will stop bringing. Simple economics. 
There is a history of why Aristocraft doesn't advertise on this site anymore. Whether the reason was right or wrong. 
LAO


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

Hi, 
I have been attending the ECLSTS for many years and have attended all of them except the first 1 or 2. I drove 3 hours and was very disappointed. It was the same old same old with less vendors and alot less working layouts. Fortunatly for me I am a biker and was very pleased to have made the long trip to not only goto the large scale train show but attend the York HD factory open house. 
I would suggest to the promoters to stick to the spring show. And vendors should not be allowed to breakdown there both until the show closes. 
Glen


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## Carl Condon (Feb 16, 2008)

Let me see if I got this right from some of you here... Aristo puts on a second show that is totally Large Scale and some of you complain because some of the vendors weren't there? Lets see, the economy is just slightly in the tank and its a new show... Give the show a break.. I"m sure more vendors will show up at next years fall show.. It takes a little time to build a show... The spring show has more vendors because they have been doing it for a few years and have it on their schedules.. Most of us east coasters should be tickled pink that we have two nice totally exclusive large scale shows to attend.. I go to YORK twice a year also for the TCA train shows... The TCA shows draw between 13,000 and 15,000 people to each of the shows. The TCA shows use seven of the largest buildings at the fairgrounds.. There is some large scale their too but not a lot... Aristo having two shows really makes it nice. The fall show is good because its after the summer and before Christmas... Now I get tp go to York four times a year to be immersed with trains... Thank you Aristo for adding the fall ECLSTS....


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Not quite 'right'. Those who weren't there had their reasons. The big problem was that many of those who WERE there didn't seem to care that people paid good money to get in to see them stuffing their wares into packing boxes. I went with $250 to spend, but only spent $12 (plus the $20 for Kim and I to get in). Would I have bought any of those items that were already packed. No one will ever know, will they? 

And yes, i supposed I could have had a word with the people running the show. But I ASSumed that they knew what was going on, and just didn't care as long as they got my money. If they didn't NOTICE, then they sure weren't doing their jobs very well in that case, either. Were they? It may have been their first FALL show, but it wasn't their FIRST show. I'll cut slack for inexperience, but not for, well....


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Not sure why it always has to end up a "us vs them" discussion. To be honest, I didn't think Mik's initial post was all that negative.. It sounded more like he was disappointed. I think that's a fair statement. The show wasn't what he expected based on his previous experience at other shows. The deals he was hoping to find, he didn't and he was disappointed. I don't think it's fair to chide him for his perceptions. Others have said it was the same show, just in the fall and maybe a bit smaller.


Others had different expectations of the show and were not disappointed. Many got the deals that they were looking for and went home happy...


I was hoping that I would be able to make it to the show. I was going to try and coordinate a trip for work with this weekend, but the work schedule just didn't sync up. 


This is why I created MLS.. For people to come together and talk about events, products, construction methods, etc, without the fear that their opinions would be squashed or belittled. Of course that doesn't mean anyone can be overly abusive, we must keep our emotions in check. 


Thanks Mik, for your honest impressions of the show.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

The only thing I can fault Mik for is his choice of motels. Looking for a cheap room when there is a Harley convention in town is just asking for trouble. 

-Brian


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

This is my last post on this topic (I can hear some of you shouting "hooray!", but that's ok, too). 

I'll give you a little background to explain my hopes and expectations a little better. First, I used to be a live steam dealer. I spent over a decade on the OTHER side of the table. Greenberg shows, model engineering expos, antique machinery shows, local train shows, community festivals, even the occasional craft show. Almost ALL those venues with written contracts have a clause in them stating when you are expected to set up by, hours you are expected to be open, and when you are allowed to tear down and leave. Generally, the more important the venue/well known the promoter, the stricter the rules. Showing up late can lose you the space, without refund. Leaving too early often gets you UNinvited to return....EVER. It's really not an unreasonable level of expectation to ask them to act in a professional manner and fulfill their contract. The vendors would scream bloody murder if the organizer arbitrarily closed down the show early while people were still buying, this is no different.


Second, at most multi-scale shows there were usually a couple or several vendors who had parts. You can nearly always find Lionel and Flyer parts even at the dinky local shows. From used shells, to brand new reproductions of hard to find tinplate items, to new wheels, to motors, to... you get the idea. I REALLY, REALLY hoped there were vendors like this with G stuff at a large large scale venue. Silly me. The closest I saw was the guy selling loose Aristo 0-4-0s that appeared to taken be from sets for $80 apiece and freight trucks for $16/pr. No market? Or an as yet untapped one?

Third, I'm not going to trash the running layouts. It's darn hard work setting the things up, and a real pain getting enough guys to build modules and cover the operating schedules. Could I do better detail work than some of them? Probably, well, maybe, but then my stuff doesn't get stuffed in a car and dragged all over the countryside either. Nor does it get harshly judged all day by yahoos who have no idea how much sweat, money and time was put into it. They get extra points for that, a LOT of extra points. They had the GUTS to show their work to the world, from a few feet away, under unflattering lighting. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them deserves a round of applause (Even if you've 'seen it before').... Kudos!



Last is another constructive suggestion. They might consider contacting Richard Sabol about the artwork for their show shirts. He does them for the Cabin Fever people and the Rough and Tumble club. He is a true artist, and does absolutely gorgeous stuff. I own about 8 shirts with his designs, and there are more I'll probably be getting sooner rather than later.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting comments, to be sure! I didn't attend the show and haven't been there for a number of years now, but a friend from the garden railroad club that I formerly belonged to in Virginia called me this past weekend while she and several other club members were en route home from the show. She goes to all of the ECLST shows and was very enthusiastic about this one. Said she got some really great bargains on rolling stock and that others in the club fared equally well. I guess it's all a matter of individual expectations, wants, and needs. I know Lewis and others put on these shows for the benefit of the Large Scale community as a whole, and I'm grateful for the effort even if I can't make it to the shows.


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