# ETHANOL or METHANOL - Which is better?



## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

The size of the alcohol tank in my new Accucraft T1 [1/2 litre] got me wondering whether bulk alcohol is available locally? Rob DeVries says he can get it Grand Rapids, MI, so it should be available in the Detroit area. With that in mind, I called a local fuel distributor who has a 24 hour phone line. 
The dispatcher on call says his company has a wide variety of fuels available, some of which may be available in quanties as small as 5 gallons. 

If ETHANOL and METHANOL are both available, which is better? Is a blend better? Which burns better? Which has a hotter flame? Does it make a difference?

Get this, if you have a really really big butane burning loco, it's available for under $2.00 per gallon









Is there a chemist on MLS who can shed some light on this issue? 

The possibility of being able to reduce the cost of running my new T1 by 75% or more has me excited.




Regards,

Will


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Methanol. 

Steve


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Which is better? 

CH3OH	Methanol	Wood alcohol - also called Hydroxymethane, Methyl alcohol, Methyl hydrate, Methyl hydroxide, Methylic alcohol, Methylol. 

C2H5OH	Ethanol	Grain alcohol 

Well Ethanol has two C's and a couple of extra H's, but since we use Methyl hydrate here in Canada, and it works great, I reckon that like Steve says, the Methanol is what you need. 
Just make sure that it is 99.9% pure, or better. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## k5pat (Jan 18, 2008)

I buy 99% Methanol from a local race car supplier who is also an auto parts dealer. He dispenses it from a 55 gallon drum. You can't buy 100% since it attracts water from the air as soon as you open the container. 

I believe I paid around $5/gallon last time. I usually buy 5 gallons at a time. I haven't noticed any difference between ethanol and methanol in our little engines.
The "ACE Hardware" denatured alcohol we used to use at DH had all kinds of denaturing chemicals in it, including water!! It got so bad that they quit listing all the chemicals on the can. It also had the foulest smell of any alcohol when burning.
I have found that the SLX brand from Home Depot was the best ethanol to use, but it is now over $13/gallon!!


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I you don't want your eyes watering, and a feeling like "I got to get out of here" because of fumes, do NOT buy the ace hardware denatured alcohol. 

Since I am getting a pretty large alcohol burner pretty soon, I will have to look into that racing ,methanol, that stuff has to be pure (drag cars are highly tuned machines!). 

Sometimes, I saw people at diamondhead running engines with stuff out of a red bottle (I got this feeling it was medical grade or something), I always wondered what that stuff was. 

Does anyone know?

(found a great article on jim pitts website: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/...20fuel.htm )


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Racers ........ also use NITRO to boost power levels - lots! 

Same fuel base for model airplanes today. 5%, 10%, 15% on larger engines and even 25 - 35% on the tiny ones like a Norvel 0.065 cu.in. running a small 5 - 6 inch prop. 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By afinegan on 14 Aug 2012 10:25 PM 
I you don't want your eyes watering, and a feeling like "I got to get out of here" because of fumes, do NOT buy the ace hardware denatured alcohol. 

Since I am getting a pretty large alcohol burner pretty soon, I will have to look into that racing ,methanol, that stuff has to be pure (drag cars are highly tuned machines!). 

Sometimes, I saw people at diamondhead running engines with stuff out of a red bottle (I got this feeling it was medical grade or something), I always wondered what that stuff was. 

Does anyone know?

(found a great article on jim pitts website: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/...20fuel.htm ) 



Was it a red bottle or a red liquid in a (semi)clear bottle? 
Our cuzzins across the pond used what they called "blue meths" which is alcohol with blue food coloring in it to help the hostler to know the difference between the water and the alcohol so they didn't put them in the wrong spigot on the engine/tender.

We here in America took to using red food coloring for that same purpose... dunno why they used blue and we picked red, but that seemed to be the way things went.

I have two charts that list the BTU content of various "fuels" and they differ as to whether Methanol or Ethanol has more heat content than the other. Either way the numbers are very close, but I don't trust EITHER chart!


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

SLX Denatured Alcohol by Klean Strip

Contents: 45-50% ethanol, 50-55% methanol, 1-4% Methyl isobutyl ketone according to its Material Safety Data Sheet

guess there's nothing wrong with a mixture. i was just looking for something on the order of 90-95% and frankly this is the only thing around; works fine for me.

probably a little on the pricey side, but i rarely go through more than few gallons/ year. i do see it's available in 5 gal containers, but i usually go with the gallon size also supporting our local mom&pop hardware store. cheers...gary


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

There is about 23% more energy content in Ethanol as there is in Methanol, 27.84 KJ/g vs. 22.66 KJ/g. If you really need to know why, go here.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I use either one in the highest purity available - eitheranhydrous racing methanol (99+%) or anhydrous ethanol from a local science shop. The ethanol is denatured and about 3 times the price. Ethanol has a slightly higher boiling point and heat output and may make a difference in some engines that are prone to boiling in the feed lines. In practice, both run great. I no longer buy any of the stuff from the hardware stores - composition and quality vary tremendously with sometimes 4 different MSDS sheets for the same brand, so which one is in my can???


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Having been involved with supercharged drag engines running methanol, one thing that is often overlooked is that at the end of a running session we had to drain and blow out the entire fuel system and lubricate everything to stop the formation of a white fibrous deposit that would freeze barrel valves, block the lean-outs (adjustable check valves) and stop up the injector nozzles. Failure to do this 30 minute job meant hours of dis-assembly and cleaning. These were very precise systems that were fairly high pressure and very high volume. (3 to 4 gallons in a 1/4 mile run) We never ran ethanol and in the engines built for supercharged methanol we almost never added any nitro. When we bought methanol it was in 55 gallon drums that were portioned out to 5 gallon fuel containers. After a 5 gallon was opened, any fuel left at the end of that day's running was not used due to water content. 

this was long ago..................and a different life 

Larry


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know about which is better for burners, but if your drinking it stick with Ethanol and stay away from Methanol. 
Regards, 
Gerald.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Andrew, the red fuel containers you've seen at Diamondhead are probably alcohol containers sold by REI for avid campers and mountain climbers. The bottle I use is manufactured by/for MSR [Mountain Safety Research]. The red bottle I have was made in Canada and should be available from stores that cater to the serious camper. Mine also has a valve which is attached to the bottle and I've inserted a piece of tubing which allows me to fill a locomotive fuel tank directly from the bottle. The total cost is will be about $25. I don't know whether the valve is available now as it is not currently listed in the REI.COM Internet site. 

Regarding Ethanol, the retail specialist I need to talk with is still not available. He deals primarily with racing fuels. I'll provide more as I learn more. 

Regards, 

Will


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I was at a Float Fly get together and had the pleasure of meeting one of the owners of a local propane supplier. I was told that he had methanol and would sell it in small (


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

Methanol releases 726 kilojoules of heat per mole burned (http://www.ausetute.com.au/heatcomb.html)
Ethanol releases nearly double: 1368 Kj/mole; that's because you're making 2 CO2's (vs just one for Methanol).

The physical volume of one mole of methanol is 48.8 ml (http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/...cps-10.pdf)
The physical volume of one mole of ethanol is 58 ml (http://www.colby.edu/chemistry/PChem/lab/PartMolalV.pdf)

Therefore, you are getting 726 Kj/48.8 ml = ~ 14.9 Kj per ml from methanol, versus 1368 kj/58 ml = ~23.6 Kj of heat per ml of ethanol. Therefore, for any given volume of liquid fuel, you're getting about 1.6 times as much heat energy, cc for cc, out of ethanol. Ethanol would seem to be the preferred fuel.
Jim C aka Dr. J
1


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

If anyone wants to double check my math, but your inorganic chemistry is rusty (mine sure is), here's a good site that reviews how to go from moles to mls:
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~cou.../moles.htm


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

For those of us, not scientifcally asstute. How stable is Methanol. If you were able to get a five gallon container, can you use what is needed in a run and keep container closed. In an earlier par of this post I think I read where after he opened the 5 gallon container and had his run the rest of the methanol was disposed of. Am reading this correctly?


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

"In an earlier par of this post I think I read where after he opened the 5 gallon container and had his run the rest of the methanol was disposed of. Am reading this correctly?" 

Yes, BUT we were using the methanol in a 5000 horsepower supercharged racing engine that had zero tolerance for moisture in the fuel. The point that I apparently did not make clear enough was that, as pure (or as pure as racing fuel was at that time) methanol evaporated it left a nasty residue in the fuel system. With a non-pressurized system this may or may not be a problem. We were forcing 3 to 4 gallons of methanol through a 500 cubic inch engine in about 6 1/2 seconds. This was probably not a good comparison to alcohol burning steam locomotives, except the mention was made about using "racing fuel" which is methanol. Since I do not have any alcohol burning locomotives I probably should not have even brought this up, except that I have spent many hours cleaning out the fuel system on blown alky engines when someone forgot to drain and blow out the fuel after the race. I do know that both ethanol and methanol will readily absorb moisture from the air. 
Larry


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim
"Therefore, for any given volume of liquid fuel, you're getting about 1.6 times as much heat energy, cc for cc, out of ethanol. Ethanol would seem to be the preferred fuel."
All depends if the extra energy is worth the extra price and whether it is really necessary to run our steam engines. I will stay with the $4.50/gal "racing fuel" vs. 3-4 times the cost of any denatured alcohol sold in cans at various hardware/improvement stores.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

The use of methanol in a high horsepower racing engine is not relevant to gauge one engines, methanol in our engines leaves no deposits it just evaporates. 
If you buy five gallons put it in a sealed container, get a pint, quart, or gallon container for daily usage or those trips to steam ups. Refill the smaller container when needed, keep it sealed and it can last a long time. If your in a very high humidity environment and you start getting burning trouble buy some new stuff, use the old stuff in the shop for things that need a good cleaning. I have never had any go bad on me I live in Southern California which is usually dry most of the year. 
Methanol racing fuel is good since it is very pure 99.99%. Buy it at a distributor while it is still labeled methanol, before it is labeled as methanol racing fuel and it is cheaper, add racing to anything and it gets more expensive. I also bought methanol at a scientific supply company and paid even more. 
Thanks 
Steve


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi, Charles
Your point is very well taken. I was thinking of the running time of the engine, not the wallet.








Jim


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 16 Aug 2012 06:04 PM 
For those of us, not scientifically astute. How stable is Methanol. If you were able to get a five gallon container, can you use what is needed in a run and keep container closed. In an earlier par of this post I think I read where after he opened the 5 gallon container and had his run the rest of the methanol was disposed of. Am reading this correctly? this is only when you want to keep the quantity as pure as possible. it's next to impossible to maintain 99.99% alcohol content since it will tend to pick up moisture out of the air. medical and science grade alcohol address concerns of purity which have practically zero effect on energy release. some solvent alcohols are on the order of 70% pure and this is what i try to avoid. anything over 90% pure burns well enough for live steam use. denatured (non-consumable) alcohol will avoid state taxes.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim,

My numbers were slightly off, using 1300 KJ/Mol instead of 1367. I also used Energy released per unit mass, rather than unit volume. 

Here is a good link on the subject.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Or good ole kerosene ? My colleagues who were supposed to be laying track and testing switches 'took off' with the kids to test Tomahawk jets and props two wknds ago. Real jets. Real Sound. But slight O/T.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

That jet is waaaaayyyyyy cool Vic, but much too fast for my reflexes. I'd lawn dart that puppy in a heartbeat! hehehe


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

I would never use methanol, since it burns with a colorless flame. So you can have a track fire, but not realise it... 
I allways use alkohol (ethanol) with a red color in (so I dont put alcohol in the boiler). It burns with yellow or blue colors. I think it is safer to use. At least you can see the fire..... 

+ As far as I know methanol is a little agressive towards metal, since it acts as a weak acid (and due to its ability to take up water from the air, it can work both as an oxydizer and reduction agent). But how long time it takes before there is any effect is something Im not sure of. My chemistry is a bit rusty. Sorry. Maybe someone can help on this? 

Here in Denmark we have 2 options: 

1) we buy alkohol at the store (Meths) it is 93% and cost about 3 US $/liter 
2) we get a licence and order 50 liters of 97% alkohol. (pure, drinkable stuff) it cost 1,3 US$ /liter (?! cheaper since the meth proces is costly + no taxes, since you have personally stated in your papers that it all is going to be used for boiling water... ) This alternative is only possible when you have an international GTG or like wise. 

Anyway the 93% works fine, and we never have a pressure problem. So this is the typical (easy) choice. 

Methanol is considered a dangerous agent here in Denmark, and you need a licence to buy. (You have it almost automatically if you fly RC-planes, and are a member of an official club, but still.. It is not something you can buy in a normal shop) 

\David


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks, Tom. I wondered why our numbers were so far apart. In this instance, I think energy released per cc of fuel is more useful in this instance than the energy released per gram (or, per mole), since it's the volume in cc's of the fuel reservoir that constitutes the physical limit on how much energy the locomotive has available. The minor difference in mass between a tank of one and a tank of the other is insignificant. Volume for volume (assuming my math is right), Ethanol packs 1.6x the energy of methanol. 

It would be interesting to use the same engine with each fuel, starting from a cold system, and measure things such as time to raise steam, and volume of fuel left when the sight glass has dropped to a specified level (dont want to run the boiler dry, although that would be a clear end-point). Other variables, such as the heat of the flame, efficiency of heat transfer, etc, also come into play, I imagine. 

(Did you ever do the experiment of boiling water in a dixie cup, using a candle flame?)


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Finally, I received some availability information on the retail availability of Ethanol.

A local southeast Michigan company sells denatured Ethanol in amounts as small as 5 gallons, but they prefer 55 gallon amounts.

The 5 gallon buckets are priced at $100 per bucket [delivered to my door] and $7.00/gallon for a 55 gallon barrel. At $20/gal., it works out to about $2.50 per run. Although I'm waiting for a MSDS [Material Safety Data Sheet] for specifications, I've been told it is 190 proof and is freshly blended/denatured. They provide the same stuff to stores like Home Depot in bulk who then sell it in consumer amounts, but who knows the age or how much water it has absorbed.

Also, if the wholesale product is 190 proof, that means for the product on the retail store shelves cannot be greater than 190 proof. If any water is absorbed, it could be less than 190 proof.

$20/gal. delivered is still expensive, but since it's fresh, it should be worth a try, especially since Ethanol produces quite a bit more heat than does Methanol?

Now, is 190 proof o.k.?

Will


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

The last time I bought methanol probably 5 years ago it was $3 a gallon, minimum 5 gallons. I went to the local Shell distributor with a 5 gallon can and they filled it up. So it was 15 dollars plus tax. 
I think your spending a lot of extra money when you don't need to. 
Thanks 
Steve


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Will, 
Of course my question is - "How much Alcohol do you think that you will use". 
I buy a US Gallon of Methyl Hydrate at the 'normal' retail price of $9.99, sometime cheaper when on sale. 
I find that a gallon will last me many many hours of running, (never bothered to calculate how many) and I usually only buy two a year. 
Mind you, if you plan on running for 8 hours a day, every day of the week, then I can see buying in larger quantities. 
The risk of buying in bulk is having all that dangerous stuff sitting in the basement or garage. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

David, I think several issues are involved, the most important being a smooth running loco. I've not seen methyl hydrate, but to be honest, I haven't looked for it specifically. Like everyone, I want to get the best value for my money and I look at buying poor fuel as throwing it away.

I was looking at sharing it too, so the 5 gallons wouldn't be just for me.

I've got a couple locos that use alcohol, but the T1 uses 500 ml per run. That's a lot and if I have a couple good runs a day, then there's a litre or more. In the grand scheme of things, if I get two good runs, the cost is worth it. Five years ago, $3.00/gal may have been normal, but what was gasoline then, $2.00 and we're at about $4.00 today [$4.41 in Chicago at the National Garden Railway Convention just last week]. Is the $15.00 of 5 years ago $30.00, 45.00 or even more today? If yes, then $20/gal is a good price, and that's for 8 runs which is quite good.

By the way, where do you purchase your methyl hydrate?

Regards,

Will


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By thumper on 24 Aug 2012 10:28 AM 
...The 5 gallon buckets are priced at $100 per bucket [delivered to my door] ...



have you actually checked on delivery? before i found the Klean Strip S-L-X locally, i was searching around the internet for mail order deals only to find out that i had to be either a laboratory or a school to get it delivered. some clause of the Patriot Act i believe.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Will, 
Any hardware, home depot type store in Canada will have Methyl Hydrate. 
Probably another Canadianism, where we call it one thing, because you call it another!!! 
When you say the T1 uses half a litre for ONE RUN, how long is a run? 
10 minutes, half an hour, three hours? 
It would be interesting to find out the cylinder sizes, and then compare it to other locos and see if it is an efficient steamer.The Royal Hudson is a very efficient boiler, and I understood that Dick Abbott designed the T1 boiler too. 
Okay, twice as many cylinders, but are they the same size as the Hudson? 
Is it blowing off very much when you run? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

David, on rollers, I got about 45 minutes. At Weltyk's it was a little more than 30 minutes. Those times aren't really fair as I did a lot of fidling.
As for setup, yes it was worked on by Dick, but he didn't control manufacture. 
On this forum, there's a photo of wicks as sent. Mine were all fluffed up like the first photo, so I haven't been getting an efficient burn. Today, I have a steamup for our club and Tom Myers will be here to help redo the wicks. I'll have a better idea for run duration afterwards.
The safety valves blew on steamup, but not much after so there wasn't much wasted steam.
As for cylinder sizes, I think that info is on the Accucraft site. Can't do it today, but I'll check the cylinder dimensions.

Regards,

Will.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave
The cylinders are 1/2". So far our test runs has shown much better fuel economy probably due to our wick reconfiguration. Putting it back together today and will be out on the track for running.


Posted By David Leech on 24 Aug 2012 10:08 PM 
Will, 
Any hardware, home depot type store in Canada will have Methyl Hydrate. 
Probably another Canadianism, where we call it one thing, because you call it another!!! 
When you say the T1 uses half a litre for ONE RUN, how long is a run? 
10 minutes, half an hour, three hours? 
It would be interesting to find out the cylinder sizes, and then compare it to other locos and see if it is an efficient steamer.The Royal Hudson is a very efficient boiler, and I understood that Dick Abbott designed the T1 boiler too. 
Okay, twice as many cylinders, but are they the same size as the Hudson? 
Is it blowing off very much when you run? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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