# Needing some advice/recommendations



## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello all you live steamers!

I don't usually frequent this forum as I can't afford live steam (mostly just run Bachmann sparkies). But I need some advice on live steam locos.

A long time friend, older gentleman in his 70s, recently retired. I had dinner with him the other night and he asked me if I was still doing G-gauge trains as he had a thought to build a layout. I can certainly help him with building a layout (having learned what not to do on mine).


But he wants to try his hand at live steam and asked me if I'd help him figure out what engine he should start with.He's got the money to do live steam and I said that the Accucraft Ruby is what I see most often recommended as the entry point to live steam. He's been reading Garden Railroad magazine and he wants something a step up from the Ruby preferably something with sound and with servos already installed.

I don't know live steam and so I'm looking for any advice I can get to share with my friend. What do you all think?

Best,
TJ


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Where are you near? It would be best if he can see something near you. A Ruby is a decent place to start but there are other engines too. Really depends on what you have already. The Accucraft 060 is a great engine and offers much more than the Ruby.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know of any with sound and servos already installed. Maybe there are.

I think the best running loco around is the Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay. A lot of guys around here have them and they are great runners. Starts right up, very powerful, appealing slower speed with a lot of whirling gadgetry, good running time, reliable. Mark Johnson's 2 cyl tows 45 cars without breaking a sweat. Good step up from the Ruby series, but not too costly. 


There might be a fellow MLS buddy in your area that could drop in the servos.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

I would recommend finding some live steamers in your area and getting together with them when they are running. By seeing several different live steamers, he will get more of an idea what he wants before he buys.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

If I have it correct looks like your in the Fresno area in CA. I am sure we can find you some fellow steamers in the area.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

As of all us know the locomotive that matches his basic needs is the Aristocraft 0-4-0. At our last steam up the one ran just fine. In particular with the RC system and sound. The advice given to visit someone or a club to test drive a locomotive can really help.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Someone on here or over there was selling a brand new Aristo live steamer 0-4-0. Regal 


Yep, TJ, it was Bodsrailroad, on here and it is in the classifieds!! $475 Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Believe it or not, the Aristo Mikado. The "fiixes" for it are all worked out, it's inexpensive, the remote control system comes installed, and it pulls well. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

TJ 

I see that you are in / near Fresno CA. Arrange to take your friend to the Summer Steam Up at sacramento; well McClellan AFB reused actually. He can see lots of steam and talk to runners and vendors alike. maybe Dwight Eniss can jump in and let you know who might be in your area, 

Good luck 

V/r


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

As Charles said, the Aristo 0-4-0 has servos and sound (the sound is really poor in my opion). I had never run live steam before I got mine and I had it running right away with no trouble at all. I've run it numerous times and can't compalin about anything. I notice Trainworld has it on sale for $499 in the latest GR magazine. I'm sure others have it for a similar price.
Bob in Kalamazoo
SA 1969


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow! Great advice and recommendations! 

Thanks EVERYONE! I do live in the Fresno area as does my friend (he's about an hour's drive up in the hills) where he has 40 acres or so. 

I will collect some Youtubes and try to visit with: 

"Aristo Mikado... the remote control system comes installed, and it pulls well..." 

"Aristocraft 0-4-0... At our last steam up the one ran just fine. In particular with the RC system and sound. " 

"Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay... Starts right up, very powerful, appealing slower speed with a lot of whirling gadgetry, good running time, reliable. Mark Johnson's 2 cyl tows 45 cars without breaking a sweat" 

I think I get a demo of the Aristo Mikado at my LHS as Roy, the owner owns one. I like 1.20 stuff myself but the RTR aspect of the Mikado my sway my friend. Great recommendation, Greg. The Aristo 0-4-0 I'm not familiar with so I will research. Thanks Jerry! The Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay appeals to me as I like 1.20 but I'm not shelling out the bucks. I'll see if Roy has a line on where we can see one locally. Thanks Bob! 

"Summer Steam Up at sacramento..." 

Jim, great advice. Do you know about when that takes place? 

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help a noobie to steam. Looks like I'll get a chance to learn alot about this aspect of the hobby through helping my friend. To say nothing about building a layout where there's more than 15 feet in any one direction. 

Very best regards to all, 
TJ


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob in Kalamazoo, 

> the Aristo 0-4-0 has servos and sound 

Thanks, seems Aristo makes it pretty simple to get into live steam by supplying everything you need to get started RTR. I appreciate the advice. 

Best, 
TJ


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

TJ 

July 13-17, 2011 


see this thread ==> Live Steam Forum/Topic: Save the Summer Steamup a buck or two ...[/b]

Web site is ==> National Summer Steamup 2011[/b]


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, apart from the AristoCraft models with their rather odd [IMO] electronic sound, what kind of 'sound' do you expect to get from a live-steam loco? 

Am I missing something here? 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac

Maybe they mean this sound...


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac,
Perhaps they mean this sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slPA4GyoPEg


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Carl,

But my Duchess has no Bark Box, Summerland Chuffer, or any other sound enhancers. It does, however, have four cylinders, two of which are 180 degrees out of phase with the other two. Hence they are effectively double chuffs.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The K4 (50 sec, 1-2:20 min marks)and Jumbo (4:17) have some excellent sound from the exhaust beat:


 
No doubt the 4 cylinder is very impressive and much better than any sound system 

 
Also enjoy the Aster Mikado on grade


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, I got the impression that the OP expected sounds other than that made by any real live steam loco. I, too, have noisy Gauge 1, Fn3 and 16mm live-steam locos. He _did_ write - 'with sound and with servos already installed'. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Sound would be whistle, bell, stuff like that. Do you forgo that with live steam? Remember my only (and limited) experience is with sparkies. That Bark Box and whistle on the K27 was impressive. Carl, was that your engine? 

Best, 
TJ


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

TJ
The locomotive in that video is an Accucraft K-27. There are still some around that are used. But it is a big, heavy locomotive for an old guy. As for a bell, it takes electronics to do that as I did in my K-28.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=trainav8r#p/u/36/XAJPWTSNro0


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

TJ-Lee, Here is a link to some of My real Whistles You will have to coppy and paste to here the picasa web Videos https://picasaweb.google.com/weltyk...feat=email 
My Web site is http://www.weltykswhistles.com/


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is one of Bob's whistles on my old Shay...




Only the whistle is RC'd. That way you can give the controller to a kid, and they can't screw up the operation of the locomotive, other than running you out of steam.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Sound would be whistle, bell, stuff like that. Do you forgo that with live steam? 
I think it would be fair to say that we (most of us) forgo stuff like that.

Having got the model the work like the real thing, we're not big on fake sounds - as you heard from the videos. Whistles seem to be easiest to reproduce using real steam, but bells are impractical due to the size. (Incidentally, the whistles aren't 'scale' size, as those would produce a very high-pitched sound. Many of the designs use a reverbration chamber to product the correct frequency.) 

Which is not to denigrate the Aristo models which have electronics in the tender to ring (virtual) bells and whistles. There have been discussions about putting electronics on our live steamers, but most folk don't seem to think it is worth the trouble. When you are running a main line loco and train, you don't need to ring or whistle too often, I guess.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a friend who has a Phoenix in his Aristo LS Mikado. It's interesting the comments he gets, many more positive than negative. To each his own. 

Greg


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Everyone, 

Let's see if I've gleaned this thread accurately (and please jump in where I've got it wrong). To recap, 

Electronic sound is not as important as it is on the sparkies. Most forgo it. But you can add something like a Phoenix sound system if you want. 

Actual sound via steam provides all the chuff you need and you can add real steam whistle via Bob Weltyk. Hmmm, do you need a welding shop and steam certified engineer to install one of Bob's whistles? (BTW, Bob - on your site, on the Gallery of Steam page all the links I tried return 404. But the Picassa videos are outstanding. Definitely gonna try to talk my friend into a live steam whistle if I can.) 

Aristo is you want the servos factory installed, but the electronic sounds are poor out of the box, and run times can be an issue depending on which model. 

Accucraft for stuff in 1.20 but you have to install servos yourself or find 3rd party to do same. 

Speaking of servos, how big a thing are they as far as desirability go? Is this like the electronic sound issue and most don't bother? Or what? I'm thinking I'd want it if only to stop the loco at the steam-up section of the layout for adding water and fuel. But I see it adds complexity to an already complex thing what with the electronic boards, wiring, radio control stuff. Talk me into it or out of it please! 

This has been very helpful so far and I thank all of you for sharing your hard won knowledge with me. 

Best, 
TJ


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I see Live Steam as just one more variable in Garden Railroading. 

Battery, Track, or Live Steam power. 

Diesel, Steam (look alike), or Steam (the real thing).

Time Frame... New, Old, or don't care.

Narrow gauge, Standard Gauge, or don't care.

Realistic, Whimsy, or don't care.

Roundy-round, Detailed model or somewhere in the middle. 

---

Sometime after one decides to do a "Garden Railroad" those variables get "settled" initially. Maybe due to finances or maybe due to space available. 

Some MUST be decided and others can vary as the mood strikes.

Finances affect some of the decisions.

Personal agility is also be something to be considered.

And after a period of time, sometimes one decides they should have gone some other route. Sometimes finances allow a change, sometimes it becomes a regret that kills the desire to "go play trains". The questioner here is attempting to avert that regret.


---

As for adding servos... consider the use of "remote control" in the other realms of power.

How many track power systems are there that have a control that can only be set once and then remain completely unchanged? Sure, you might set a single speed for running, but how often do you then decide to increase or decrease it after seeing the train run at least one circuit of the system? If you are doing some sort of Operations, do you not enjoy the use of radio control of the base station power supply so you can be near the train while controlling it? 

On a battery system, don't you have Remote Control as pretty much standard? For all the same reasions, right?

Why should Remote Control be something undesirable on a Live Steamer?

Attaching the servos can be a problem due to space on some engines and it may take some mechanical ingenuity to get it done satisfactorily, but once installed that is when you get to be the REAL Engineer on a true Live Steam Locomotive!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"Speaking of servos, how big a thing are they as far as desirability go? Is this like the electronic sound issue and most don't bother? Or what? I'm thinking I'd want it if only to stop the loco at the steam-up section of the layout for adding water and fuel. But I see it adds complexity to an already complex thing what with the electronic boards, wiring, radio control stuff. Talk me into it or out of it please! "

TJ
Are you talking about yourself or your 70 year old friend?

Another positive with RC is being able to control your locomotive from a distance. Then there are grades that some layouts have that challenge an operator and having RC make the ability to throttle up or down with timely input. 


The level of complexity cannot be that great when I know several elderly live steamers who regularly use RC setup on their locomotives. BTW- kids love RC trains!


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By tj-lee on 08 Mar 2011 02:31 PM 
Speaking of servos, how big a thing are they as far as desirability go? Is this like the electronic sound issue and most don't bother? Or what? TJ 

Sir - if you want radio control you have to have a little receiver [plus suitable batteries] and at least one servo - even if all you want to do is to control the throttle and leave the forward/reverse to manual operation.

The Usual 'fit' for r/c is one servo for throttle, one servo for fwd/rev and a simple trimmer control on the transmitter to operate the whistle - however, whistles are still quite uncommon, even in the USA, and can add quite a chunk to the cost of the set-up - at least $250 and up, plus installation. Naturally they DO need to be plumbed into the steam circuit and many boiler backheads have provision for this. Some, however, do not. As for all the other noises made by a steam loco - water-feed pump, air-pump, generator, brakes, blowdown and so on, these are electronically generated by systems such as Phoenix - the most popular - and add another $250-300 to the cost plus of course, some place has to be found for it and its batteries to be stowed safe from the heat of the loco. It has already been noted that many/most of us are too busy running our steam loco to worry about fake noises emanating from the tender - really the only safe place to install a sound unit on a loco than can get too hot to pick up without oven mitts.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks again for all the help! 

Semper, 

> The questioner here is attempting to avert that regret. 

Indeed and thanks for your insights into remote control. I think that will be a must have on my list. 

Charles, 

> Are you talking about yourself or your 70 year old friend? 

You bring up a good point. This is an opportunity for me to build a pike I could never shoehorn into my tiny backyard, on a budget I could never justify. And with live steam which I could only lust for but never afford so you make a fair point about "talking about yourself". However, this is all for nought if I don't make good, solid recommendations, to my "70 year old friend". If I don't take his needs and desires into account or build something that I like that he doesn't, or talk him into an engine that he does not enjoy, then this project will come to a quick close and I won't be playing on his layout and enjoying his company in short order. If my friend does not enjoy it you can bet that I won't either in short order. So you can be assured that I have my friends interest at heart even above my own. Plus we've been friends for a long time and so I will do my level best to build a layout that he'll want and enjoy. 


Tac, 

> many boiler backheads have provision for this 
> Attaching the servos can be a problem due to space on some engines 

I think these comments make selecting the right engine the main trick. I guess I should contact Bob Weltyk and find out which engines are easier installs than others for his whistles and solicit opinions on which engines make for easier servo installs. 

Or better yet I need to find someone in a 50 mile radius of Fresno that does these types of installations... 

Best, 
TJ


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

TJ, 

Your summary is excellent and concise - time to generate a FAQ! (Accucraft does have some attractive 1/32nd models, btw.) 

You probably realised that most of the comments about r/c involve installing your own. I'm sure Bob's whistles don't need a welding rig, but the level of difficulty for all this is '3 spanners', which means not for the beginner (in general.) There are people who will install them for you. 

Roundhouse Engineering in the UK, who haven't been mentioned yet, make some locos available with r/c installed, and I can attest to their reputation for being bullet-proof and reliable for beginners. One or two are US outline - and there is talk of a new US engine from them soon. 

Besides whistles and r/c, there are other mods that we routinely do to the live steamers. Water pumps are a big plus - either fancy jobs installed at the factory to the axle or a hand pump in the tender - to extend the run time. (Without one you have to let the loco cool down before you can add water.) Again, not that simple and different on every loco. 

Here's a thought for you. Most live steamers hold their value well, and there seems to be a ready market for 'used' [proven to work] locomotives. I recently sold two of mine for about what I paid for them. So you caan't go wrong - if you and friend don't like/enjoy the model, you can always sell it and buy a new one. 

My suggestion would be to start with an Aristo 0-4-0, as it has all the bells and whistles (except a water pump.) That will not cost a lot and will let you evaluate whether you like live steam, whether electric sounds enhance the experience, etc. While you play with that, you can visit a few steam-ups and learn what it takes to own/run a PRR T1 4-4-4-4 !


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

TJ
I will add to Pete's summary on the ability to add water to the boiler to extend running time:"Besides whistles and r/c, there are other mods that we routinely do to the live steamers. Water pumps are a big plus - either fancy jobs installed at the factory to the axle or a hand pump in the tender - to extend the run time. (Without one you have to let the loco cool down before you can add water.) Again, not that simple and different on every loco. "As you can see we installed a goodall valve, quick disconnect and a pump bottle on to a Aristo Mike


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

I ran the Aristo Live Steam 0-4-0 Switcher, as mentioned by Charles above, and am very please after figuring the basics of warming and supplying butane. I bought it at a member discount over the Wholesale Trains sale price. The bells sounds good, whistle sounds poor, and no need to add chuff, which sounds like static noise. I very much like the remote control and just need to find and add a Goodall valve for longer running times. It easily pulled two passenger cars and two depressed flat cars. Perhaps, it would pull 6-8 cars now and more if I increased the safety valve limit from 30 PSI to 40 PSI. Also, it runs on my outdoor layout with 5 ft diameter curves and goes up to 6 degrees of incline with over and under folded figure eight design, but without pulling any cars. 

I am looking forward to future release the Aristo Live Steam Rogers loco to also run on my layout. I would also consider buying the Aristo Mikado after I add phase two of my layout with 8 feet and greater curves.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... a 6 degree slope is a 10.5% grade. 

I could believe a 6% grade with a run at it and a short up and down and no cars. 10.5% is a stretch. Unloaded really does not make a good test in any case. 

The other test with 4 cars, I assume was dead level? 

Greg


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm glad the Goodall valve got a mention, even though it tends to be used for models at the low end of the complexity spectrum. Without one my Shays would be twenty-minute wonders, and my Garratt similarly limited. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They came on the first run Aristo Mikados... can be added to the second run. Don't know why they were eliminated on the second run, cost reduction? 

Greg


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Mar 2011 05:16 PM 
Umm... a 6 degree slope is a 10.5% grade. 

I could believe a 6% grade with a run at it and a short up and down and no cars. 10.5% is a stretch. Unloaded really does not make a good test in any case. 

The other test with 4 cars, I assume was dead level? 

Greg 

My mistake - correction is 6% (not degree) for grade.

Yes, I pulled four cars on level track.


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Here is a recent short video of my Aristo Live Steam Switcher running at the home garden railroad. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJuqoSqGBb8 

Cheers!


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