# Bluetooth to Battery DCC



## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Here is a project I'm working on, got the basics working with the Economi, I'm working on a TCS WOW for my GP9, and then back to the QSI for my Dash9. I was doing Xbee, and I still am to some extent but it's easy to write Android apps as opposed to making a custom hand held controller, so path of least resistance I guess 

http://martinsant.net/?p=3474


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, you are back to a controller with no tactile feedback, and costs more than other controllers.

Your cell phone was not free and while you are re-using it for free, how many people have several cell phones? 

So for some it's great, for a guy like me who wants to look at the train not the controller, and needs 4 or so controllers, won't do.

Maybe you could get hold of a Revolution transmitter and re-code it?

Greg - 822


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, not actually. My phone was $29 and I only use it for the train, I don't do smart phones as I sit in front of a computer all day anyhow. Also, I don't do apple, way way overpriced. But I agree, I like a knob and real buttons. On the other hand, coding a colorful UI on the phone is very easy and customizable, if I could just find a way to put a KNOB on it!! Arg. I have tried but it's not easy. I have built a couple of controllers with knobs (and I prefer them) but it's difficult to do and the cost far exceeds my $29 phone. I would certainly be open to reverse engineering a airwire or other controller if someone wants to donate one to me <grin>


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Here is one of my controllers for Xbee I built. I can do DCC with the Xbee implementation as well but like I said, this was an expensive alternative. I also have a partially built one that looks just like this one but has a color touch screen on it as well. The touch screen was like $100 alone. To me the UI is the big sticking point. The network stuff is easy compared to that.

http://martinsant.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/P1050158.png


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, the problem is you cannot buy touch screens at the million piece price!

So you found a new Android phone for $29, that's pretty good... I did get a Windows 10 phone for $49 new, just to see what they were up to.

Greg - 821


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Martan said:


> ...coding a colorful UI on the phone is very easy and customizable...


Therein lies the strength of smart-device interfaces. Ease and the ability to customize the user interface. Think of a phone/tablet whose display is a photo of a diesel locomotive control stand. No pressing "F1" for bell or "F2" for horn, or even turning a knob or thumbwheel to change speed. You tap the appropriate controls on the control stand to get the loco to do what you want it to do. Want to go faster? Move the throttle from notch 3 to notch 4. Want to slow down? Apply the brake.

We spend boatloads of money on state-of-the-art decoders which do a great job of allowing us to recreate many nuances of locomotive operation. With each new generation of decoder, we get closer and closer to being able to control a locomotive just like the real thing. The Tsunami2s offer independent, train, _and _dynamic braking options! Yet we still rely on an unprototypical (antiquated?) button-and-knob user interface to control them. In the old days, with the limited functionality of the controls, that was fine. Now? Today's systems are almost _begging _for a more prototypical user interface. You _can _do that to some extent with new hardware (there's someone working on a handheld diesel "control stand" interface), but the easier way to do this is with a graphic user interface. 

(And I won't even mention the potential for two-way communication with a video camera mounted in the cab for an engineer's eye view of the railroad. That's how folks are flying drones; no reason we can't use it to run our trains.)

Ain't technology great?

Later,

K


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## greghile (Jun 10, 2008)

Another reason I am looking at Bluetooth app systems is the ability to upgrade quite easily ...


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Martan, have you made anymore progress on this? I love the idea,


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Yes, thanks for the interest. I have revised the PCB just a bit and am working on polishing off the software for three versions - the first is all servo control for live steam, the second is battery power using an ESC and third is DCC control using either the Economi 400 or the TCSWow 5 amp. I hope to pull it all together over thanksgiving break.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin: "Yet we still rely on an unprototypical (antiquated?) button-and-knob user interface to control them"

Clearly a touchscreen on a smart phone is much _more unprototypical_ interface than reversing buttons and knobs for speed!

I don't want to start paragraphs expounding on the user interface, and derailing this thread, but implying a smart phone is MORE prototypical than buttons and knobs is just plain wrong.

I have a smartphone interface to just about everything at my house, but when I run trains I like looking at the train, not my phone in the sunlight which does not show well anyway.

Some kind of tactile feedback is better for me.

Greg - 659


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Martan: How about finding something like this to add to a smart phone:

https://dimple.io/

People could use this by feel... 4 buttons, speed up, speed down, direction and perhaps horn/whistle... 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you apparently are not understanding where I'm coming from. I'm talking about using the smartphone's display screen as a virtual locomotive cab, whereby the screen is a visual representation of the control stand you would find in a diesel, electric or trolley, or the backhead of a steam loco. You can customize it for the specific control stand for the specific locomotive you're controlling if you'd like. Something like this on your phone:










(And with a bi-directional communication link between controller and loco, there's no reason a small camera cannot feedback what you're actually seeing on the railroad.)

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand what you are saying in your second post.

But it's not what you said in your first post:
"Therein lies the strength of smart-device interfaces. Ease and the ability to customize the user interface. Think of a phone/tablet whose display is a photo of a diesel locomotive control stand.* No pressing "F1" for bell or "F2" for horn, or even turning a knob or thumbwheel to change speed. You tap the appropriate controls on the control stand* to get the loco to do what you want it to do. Want to go faster? Move the throttle from notch 3 to notch 4. Want to slow down? Apply the brake."

You describe using the screen as a control as well. With no tactile feedback, this interface makes you look at it to operate it.

Sitting in a chair with a static window to look out, is ok for reading information, but as many car manufacturers have found out, trying to press a touchscreen while driving is not good, that is why there are knobs and buttons for the critical elements in a car and indeed in a train, and indeed the controls in your picture clearly illustrate.

Configurable displays are nice for information, but I was and still am talking the controls... so far trains, plains and automobiles have physical buttons, pedals levers and knobs.

When I am running a train, there's very little visual feedback I want from the control panel, most of my visual feedback is the train itself, and I am loathe to hold the control in my sightline up in the air, like the speedometer in a car.


Greg - 656


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

I agree 100% Greg. I really like a knob- I don't want to look at the screen while I'm running the train. But (android) phones are cheap, have a great range and are easy to program. And some people don't care it seems. I mean, for just running roundy-roundy, it's fine, set and forget. It's switching moves that get me mostly. Anyhow, I want to finish all this up and then the next project will be some sort of cradle to hold the phone and provide a real knob and buttons. Those little add on things are ok, but I want a real turning knob that I can position under my thumb, I think I can get that into the phone via the OTG usb configuration, we shall see.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, if you could use the phone "alone" as the base controller, and then be able to add inexpensively some buttons and perhaps a knob that might cover 90% of the people.

I thought the inexpensive NFC pushbuttons were rather novel. (and it leaves the headphone jack and the OTG USB free).

Also having the base, and then being able to add on things might be a good "marketing" tactic.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, Greg, with my idea, you have to look at your phone/tablet screen to make changes. Different strokes for different folks. I use WiThrottle to operate a friend's HO line, and I have to look at the screen with that. I started with the MRC throttles on his line. There's no real difference in operating experience to me with one or the other throttle. It's just a different user interface. I prefer my phone because it's smaller and lighter. Even in my own back yard, I look at my throttle (Airwire--knobs and buttons) when I make changes just to make sure I'm pressing the correct buttons, or to see to which speed step I'm setting my throttle knob. 

Certainly, a tactile-feedback add-on would be cool, and I've talked about a simple cradle or similar attachment to a phone in the past. Why stop with simple pushbuttons and knobs? 3D-print a handheld version of a control stand, and have the throttle, direction, and brake levers all do their prototypical things; pushbuttons or switches for lights, bell, horn, etc. 

The phone/tablet software is what's doing the controlling. The user interface with the phone can be customized to very individual tastes. That can range from a simple graphic interface ala WiThrottle to a simulator interface like I described above to simple add-on pushbuttons and knobs to a full-blown miniature control stand. Pick your pleasure; it's all possible. Look at flight simulators. The software is the constant; the user interface varies based on the desires of the user. Some folks are happy tapping things on their tablet screens. Some use their keyboards and mice. Some buy yokes and rudder pedals to set up a simulated cockpit. 

I don't see any of this as an "either/or" kind of thing. Once the software is there, you've laid the foundation. The user interface can develop along any or all of these lines, depending on what the modeler might want to accomplish. 

Later,

K


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Now that is something my kids would love. Great idea





East Broad Top said:


> Greg, you apparently are not understanding where I'm coming from. I'm talking about using the smartphone's display screen as a virtual locomotive cab, whereby the screen is a visual representation of the control stand you would find in a diesel, electric or trolley, or the backhead of a steam loco. You can customize it for the specific control stand for the specific locomotive you're controlling if you'd like. Something like this on your phone:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

I also agree with Kevin 100% here. No reason we can't have the same sorts of situations the drone guys have, right? Tactile controls, streaming video, VR headsets, all that stuff.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A little different. Yes, duplicating the experience from the cab will interest some.

But a drone ride is all about the scenery, and going every which way.

Many people like to see the entire train as it snakes through the scenery, so I don't think it's an exact analog.

One issue is ambient light, our trains are outdoors, how do you present an entire cab in the sunlight? I think the only alternative is goggles.

Not sure that would be super interesting to all.

In any case, let's get your gadget going in the first place, having a base software, and then the buttons, knobs and VR can be add ons.

Greg - 654


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I would welcome bluetooth control for live steam. Tired of the twin stick control, do not really want a hand held, got that with a Revolution but they do not offer a receiver for servo control. Would be nice if they did! I already have an android smartphone, as do most everybody else. So control of large scale both onboard battery and live steam via my smartphone would be super nice.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> I would welcome bluetooth control for live steam. Tired of the twin stick control, do not really want a hand held, got that with a Revolution but they do not offer a receiver for servo control. Would be nice if they did! I already have an android smartphone, as do most everybody else. So control of large scale both onboard battery and live steam via my smartphone would be super nice.


What is a smart phone if isn't a hand held??


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Haha, funny Tony. Its not about not wanting hand held, just one less transmitter to buy or misplace ect. Where I go, my phone goes. I bet we see bluetooth control for servo applications in the near future


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I bet you don't. For any number of reasons.
Just a couple of them.
You cannot see the screen in bright sunshine.
No knobs to "feel", meaning you have to look at the screen, which of course you cannot see in bright sunshine.
Phones are great indoors. Outdoors...........?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

For all you diseasemal guys, maybe it could be programmed to work with this controller by RailDriver, which is already USB...










The ultimate in "tactical feedback."


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dwight Ennis said:


> For all you diseasemal guys, maybe it could be programmed to work with this controller by RailDriver, which is already USB...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet my grandson would like to see that he has 1 of those Dwight
dick


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Mike- Already have it:


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Martan.
Any idea when you will be offering them for sale?


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

Tony- they are in beta now. I have six guys testing various combinations. I hope this spring but I want to get as much test time as possible. The firmware and the receiver seem very solid, I'm spending my time on the apps now. They are free downloads, you can get them on the Google Play Store. I'd appreciate any feedback. Here is a link -
https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=martin+sant


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

let me know when the reciever for servo control comes up for sale. I have 2 vintage Merlin live steamers, one 2 channel, the other is single channel with old 27mhz AM radios that love to glitch some days. Other days they are glitch free. So its time to upgrade the old engines to modern RC. Tony, at pretty much any steam up, atleast a portion of the layout is under a canopy or in the shade. With just a basic slide bar to operate the throttle/direction, I can seen my phone well enough to not be interested in new handheld controlers of any kind. Just a new reciever and the app is what I am waiting for


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike.
If and when something like you want ever appears commercially I for one, will be eager to hear of your impressions.
Good luck in your quest.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Its closer than you think Tony, thats all I can say right now. Mike the Aspie


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