# Standard gauge annie



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've got a Bachmann Anniversary model that I never run. Our layout is mostly 1:29, and the annie just looks out of place. I've thought for a long time that it ought to be possible to make the Annie--which is more or less in 1:22--to look more "standard gage."




So here's an exploration in photoshop




The stock annie:












and some photoshop modification: shortening the firebox, the boiler/backhead, lowering the cab and the domes and the stack, scaling the headlight and bell down a little. Does it look reasonably standard gage?











The challenge, if I remember right, will be shortening the chassis. My annie is in storage at the moment, and I can't recall how much empty space there is under the cab. 


Also something looks a little off to me. The cab is maybe too low? Or the domes need to be lower? The annie's boiler has always seemed slightly wrong but I can't figure out why. The whole thing will have to be narrowed, and the cab will be a challenge 


The Southern ran trains near where we live, and the Southern had a lot of 4-6-0s active into the twentieth century (http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/steam/460/460.html). I'll probably paint it as an imaginary loco with a Southern green boiler. That is, if I decide to go ahead. Any thoughts on getting a more mainline look?


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## S.B.A. (Jul 19, 2009)

I think the Annie would make a very nice representation of a standard gauge 4-6-0 in 1:29, but I think a few things should be changed in addition to the domes, headlight, smokestack and cab. The pilot should have most of that narrow gauge bulk taken off, as well as the over-sized smokebox support beams that connect to the pilot. See this photo posted at the NGDF; http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/file.php?1,file=18394 the most noticeable attribute to this locomotive is the placement of the running boards, which are nearly in line with the centerline of the boiler. The replacement of some piping with smaller diameter piping would also help give the locomotive a more standard gauge look. This sounds like a very fun project! Good luck! 

Sean


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

About 15 yrs ago I did a similar thing with a B-mann Big Hauler, changed out and cut down a number of parts, 
and just plain rebuilt other parts of it... The cab was sectioned both vertically & horizontally as well, the 
tender had a half inch taken out of the middle of it as well to get it to the proper width... I cut up 2 of the 
junky old drives they had and made a consolidation out of it, I was trying to get it to look something like one 
of WM's H-3 consolidations... I never ran it very much because I was always afraid of the weak drives those 
things had, but years later when Barry came out with his consolidation drive, I got one an installed it, been 
flogging it pretty hard ever since... Here is a pic of it with the newer drive, and one of what its loosely modeled 
after...
Paul R...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul that's really nice. I'd thought about using one of Barry's drive to make it a 2-8-0. But I like the Annie's valve gear, and it's a little unclear to me how Barry converts an annie to a 2-8-0. Also I have a couple 2-8-0s but no 4-6-0. 

I think sectioning the cab will be hard enough--I'm stil not sure I want to do this 
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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Two things come to mind: 
One is that the handrails which are correct for a 1:22 loco are too high for a 1:29 loco, so you might want to move them down a bit. 
The other is that the cab looks off - like a hot rod that has been chopped. It might be too wide as well, but it definitely looks too long, especially the window. 
If you are interested in doing a Southern loco, I could suggest a couple prototypes, and provide scale drawings of a southern Ry. cab that would look good on that model.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks DR, I think you're right about the cab, and the handrails. I hate messing with handrails, I always screw them up!

I have to admit I'm less interested in matching a specific prototype than I am in getting a standard gage look



According to Kevin Strong, the best/easiest prototype would be the Maryland and Pa RR's 4-6-0s, which had under 60 inch drivers. The Annie drivers are 2 inches and scale out to 58 inches in 1:29. I found a pdf of southern steam and they had a few 10 wheelers with drivers in the low 60s. I may just make it a consol


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

I don't have a way of getting pictures of my 7.5 inch gauge ten-wheeler to you (all old prints), but I found some pictures off some live steamer sites. This will give you another angle as to how the proportion should be in relation to cab, driver size, frame length, etc. Hope this helps.



















BTW, the driver diameter is eight inches and if I remember correctly, the lead truck wheels are slight under 4 inches. If you need the dimensions closer, I can go out in the garage and measure my locomotive. I haven't been able to run it in years because of eyesight issues!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's a badly photographed drawing of Ma & Pa #27




and my photoshopped annie



Kevin Strong seems to be right--they are very close


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Also something looks a little off to me. The cab is maybe too low? Or the domes need to be lower? The annie's boiler has always seemed slightly wrong but I can't figure out why. 
Mike, 

I've chopped a few Big Haulers in my time, and even set out to make a standard gauge version in 1:22.5 ! (Gauge-3). 

I think part of the problem is that the sizes of the accessories are what sets the mood! Baldwin had domes, but they were mostly the same size, so even if the original ET&WNC loco had small domes, at 1:22.5 they look big! The drawing of the Ma&Pa 4-6-0 shows that they are large for a 1:29th scale version. 

Shortening the pilot is easy, and the Ma&Pa drawing suggests you need to do it. (Just cut the metal pckup strips and resolder them after you've cut and joined the plastic.) 
You could shorten the cab and move it back like the drawing. 

The rest is details. I'm not sure why you find moving handrails so scary? It's just a matter of making some more holes and filling the old ones. Not sure I buy the need to changing the running bords, but that isn't too trciky either. 

Looks like a fun project!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

One thing that I noticed about the drawing is that the front truck has a shorter wheel base than the big hauler has. Shortening that would also help with the standard gauge look, I think.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I've been contemplating the same sort of bash myself. In my case, I'd make a Danville & Western engine, since the drivers are spot on for it, the counterweights are easy enough to modify as needed, and I have a thing for the D&W. The line had three, two sisters and another that was almost identical despite being from a different builder.


Here's a builder's photo of #20, and a photo from 1933, both of which should link to larger images:


 

If you're interested, more info can be found on my web site, http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Whatever you do, I look forward to seeing the results.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That loco on the right would be a very nice match for a standard gage annie

When did the Southern go to the green paint scheme, as on the Pacific at the Smithsonian? It was in the 1920s, no? And only passenger engines? 

Part of our layout is modeled on the Washington & Old Dominion, which leased locos from the Southern and used some Southern trackage before it converted to electric/diesel in the 1920s. 

For me, the hard part is probably going to be the cab. It will need to be cut down in three dimensions. I'm not at all sure how to go about it. It would probably be easier to build an entirely new cab from scratch. I have the annie cab sitting on my workbench, and I'm trying to figure out how to attack it. Cut it into components, and then reduce them? How do i cut the roof off, since it's a curved cut? Hmmm


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"When did the Southern go to the green paint scheme, as on the Pacific at the Smithsonian? It was in the 1920s, no? And only passenger engines?" 

Mike; 

Probably some time in the mid-1920s. The tale I have heard told is that President Spencer (of the Southern Ry) was on a trip to England. He happened to ride the Southern Railway of England, a really took a liking to their green livery for passenger locomotives. When he got back home, he decided to try the green livery on his own road's locomotives. 

Now, I'm working from memory because my books are at home, but I think the Grouping (various smaller railways into Britain's "Big Four") happened sometime before 1925. Had Mr. Spencer visited prior to that event, there would not have been a Southern Railway to ride upon, only smaller lines like the London, Brighton & South Coast. Hopefully, one of our members from across the pond will chime in and correct my dates, if needed. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 04 May 2012 09:50 AM 
That loco on the right would be a very nice match for a standard gage annie
Both photos are of the same engine, just taken some 30 years apart. It gives you an idea how much an engine could change in appearance over it's life.

Posted By lownote on 04 May 2012 09:50 AM
When did the Southern go to the green paint scheme, as on the Pacific at the Smithsonian?
I believe the first green Ps-4 class Pacifics were delivered in 1926 (the earlier ones were delivered in black), and that other engines were repainted green after that time. I have a paint diagram dated 1927 which clearly defines the standard green scheme.

Posted By lownote on 04 May 2012 09:50 AM
For me, the hard part is probably going to be the cab.
I suggest that you look at simply building your own. They're pretty simple - just a front and back, with the roof and sides being either separate (on older designs) or one piece (on newer ones). In HO scale, I can knock out a cab in an afternoon without any trouble.

Some Southern engines:
#958









#967









And #1113, a squat little engine and somewhat unusual for Southern










I'm not sure about #1113, but the 900's has 62" drivers - about as close as you're going to get to the model's 58" on Southern proper. Most, if not all, passenger engines received green paint in the late '20s. Done properly, I know of few better looking paint schemes for North American steam locomotives. If you want, the artwork is available for free, and I can send it to you or straight to the decal producer of your choice.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

For more Southern engines, see here: 
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/steam/460/460.html


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

A few thoughts looking at the Ma & Pa drawing... 

The Ma & Pa engine is basically a Baldwin catalog model shortline 10-wheeler, so it could plausibly fit in just about anywhwere, even if the W&OD didn't have that specific engine. 

The chassis doesn't need shortening at the rear, but the front wall of the scaled-down cab will be further back on the boiler. I'm not sure if the stock cab just fits over the boiler, or if there are grooves in the boiler that it slides into that will need to be filled. 

Definitely shorten the pilot truck, the wheelbase is too long even for the ET&WNC narrow gauge prototype for the Bachmann model. 

The existing sand dome would be about the right size for the steam dome, so you only have one new dome to worry about (a new, smaller sand dome). 

The mounting holes for the handrail stanchions look like they're in about the right place, just that the Anne has longer stanchions that stick up vertically to raise the handrail to its final height. Using short stanchions that stick straight out from the boiler (instead of bending upwards) in the existing mounting holes should do the job, I think. 

Smokestack and headlight are probably usable as-is, but the smokebox should be shortened a little bit. From the double row of rivets just ahead of the smokestack, the part of the smokebox between there and the smokebox front should be somewhere around 1/2 to 2/3 of its current length. 

The cylinders and valve chests are one thing that always scream "Annie", or more specifically, the overhang of the valve chests over the side of the cylinders. Check it against prototype photos and decide if it's something you want to live with or try to change. Larger cylinders might help. 

Use 1:29 detail parts for the air compressor, bell, dynamo, etc. They might look "close enough", but the overall effect will make a huge difference in the appearance of the model.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I just managed to cut up the bachmann cab a little while a go and decided, when I was done, that I'd probably be better off making a new cab from scratch.

Thank you for the pictures--I had seen that page of southern 4-6-0s, it's in my original post. The 62 inch driver version is probably my best shot--I had seen a drawing of the 62 in ch driver loco in a pdf. file.

I'd love to see the artwork, and more info on the color scheme--thank you


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

thanks RW Jenkins, excellent suggestions. I agree with your suggestion to "Use 1:29 detail parts for the air compressor, bell, dynamo, etc." If I could find 1:29 detail parts I would use them--they're not easy to come by


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at the size and spacing of the drivers on those Southern engines, I'm thinking a new set of drivers would go a long way towards transforming the Annie's apperance. I wonder how easy it would be to retrofit with Slater's wheels? (https://slatersplastikard.com/wheels/gauge1.php) They list their offerings in prototype feet and inches in 1:32 and 10mm scales, so you'll need to do a bit of math to figure out what you need in 1:29. Convert to inches and multiply by .90625 to figure out what the 1:32 size scales out to in 1:29. Multiply by .95144 to convert from 10mm scale.

Accucraft has a parts section in the e-store on their website. They might have some 1:29 stuff listed there from their K4, USRA switcher, and B&O docksider.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

or if there are grooves in the boiler that it slides into that will need to be filled. 
Every ten wheeler I've dealt with had grooves. I assume the latest 'Annie' and later versions are the same. 

I have cut slices from the boiler and re-attached them together in a different order - that's another way to move the slots! 

How do i cut the roof off, since it's a curved cut? 
Small fret saw, designed for cutting curves in wood. Or cut it off and use a piece of styrene to replace it. 

I'd probably be better off making a new cab from scratch 
I have two or three cabs lying around if you want to experiment. The early wood ones and the later steel versions. Send me a Message.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

See how the prototype photos show the front edge of the cab as being in line with the axle center of the last driver. This may be part of the effect you seek. Also, standard gauge locos tended to have a higher boiler, to permit a taller firebox, something the Annie does not have.

Cheers

TL


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks so much to everyone who replied--it's been a huge help. Im going to take my time on this and see what I can do. Updates when appropriate!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I went and got my old annie out of the attic. It was more beat up than I remembered. Also it was the "old" version, generation four, with a wood cab and the more ornate style domes. I thought about it for a while--I want this to be a loco in regular service. I could rework this and buy a BBT drive, or just get a latest generation drive, with the all metal gearing and the new from pilot mount. So I wentt ahead and bought a latest generation annie to cut down.

Downside is the pilot truck is now diecast metal, which will make shortening it a little trickier.

I decided to model it on the Ma&Pa rr ten wheeler shown in the Kalmbach Steam Locomotive Cylopedia, since there was a good drawing available. I scanned the drawing and sized it to 1:29 and printed it out. The biggest problem is the cylinders--they are too far forward on the annie. Moving them would take this project, given my skill level, from "fun" to "nightmare, because all the valve gear and associated rig would need to be shortened. It may not be possible to shorten it enough to get the right look. OK, accuracy is the first thing to go.

I may start working on it later this week


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Slowly making slow progress. This project is way above my limited skill level, so I fully expect to mess it up.



Here's the Annie near the drawing of the Ma&Pa ten wheeler in the Locomotive Cyclopedia 

I cut the smokebox down by roughly half an inch, and made a new pilot truck out of an old aristo Pacific pilot truck. Both are just tack-glued together, but they look like they could work. Patching that cut line will be tough.

The cab will be a problem for me. It has to be lower, and shorter, and set farther back, which means I have to deal with that slot in the boiler and then figure out how everything is gong to attach. 





As you can see the Bachmann model is longer than the drawing. But I'm not going to attempt shortening the valve gear!

Several people suggested using smaller appliances--a smaller air pump, headlight etc. That makes sense from a modeling perspective, but in real life, I doubt that Baldwin would have made a larger air pump for a narrow gage loco. Wouldn't they have just stuck, to the degree that they could, standard-size appliances on narrow gage locos?

Suggestions welcome


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The cab will be a problem for me. It has to be lower, and shorter, and set farther back, which means I have to deal with that slot in the boiler and then figure out how everything is gong to attach 
One solution is just to cut it out - cut in front of it and behind it. Then clean up the upper firebox above the footplate (on yours, the boiler outside the can is rounded at the lower section whereas the in-cab bit is not. Just extend the not-rounded to the front of the riveted firebox below the footplate. Or ask someone if they have a piece of boiler to donate that could be fitted where the slot is. 
Or you can just fill the slot. You can tell from this pic that I used several boilers to get this one!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Aha! 

Thanks Pete, I see what you're getting at. Fill the slot, and cut away the attachment points on the running board. Looks easy when you know what you're doing! I'll need to bring the backhead forward a good bit, but that should be easy. 

So how did that striped monster turn out?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Wouldn't they have just stuck, to the degree that they could, standard-size appliances on narrow gauge locos? 
To an extent, yes. For instance, a 9" Westinghouse airpump is the same size regardless of the gauge of the loco it's put on, as is a 15" headlight, generator, etc. But 9" in 1:22.5 is bigger than 9" in 1:29, so "measure twice, order once" to paraphrase an old saying. Many of Trackside Details' details are 1:24, and might translate well to appliances fitted to the standard gauge locos. If they don't have overall sizes listed on their web site, ask here. I've got some in my parts bin I can measure for you if need be. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand about the scale difference, but if accurately modeled in 1:22, and based on a standard prototype, it should be the same size as the one they bolted to the side of their standard gage offerings. That is, it should look oversized on the Annie at 1:22. as I assume it would have in real life? 
I have bought a lot of parts from trackside and sometimes they seem perfect for 1:29 and sometime they are WAY oversize--thanks for the offer to measure! I usually buy them from Warrior run at the ECLSTs


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If I'm following your logic, that'd presume that the appliances would be somewhat proportional to the size of the loco (i.e., they'd use a 15" diameter headlight on a narrow gauge loco vs. an 18" headlight on a standard gauge one or something of that ilk. In some cases, that'd be fairly accurate. A narrow gauge loco may only need the capacity of a 9" airpump (or dual 9" airpumps) whereas a standard gauge loco would likely need 11" or something like that. Other appliances would have been largely the same size (injectors, safety valves, clean-out plugs, etc.) Fortunately, in most cases the appliances of different sizes are similar enough in appearance that a 1:24 model of a 15" headlight looks very close to an 18" headlight in 1:29, so they're interchangeable to an extent. (At least so long as you're not counting rivets.) 

I'll definitely be interested in seeing what you end up with on this one. 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So how did that striped monster turn out? 
It got a coat of paint which disguised the stripes! 

But then I acquired some other EBT locos, and it sits in the box waiting for inspiration to strike. It was/is too big anyway.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Pete, if you're looking for a bit of inspiration for that engine project, how about an 1890s D&RG 10 wheeler? You'd have to move the third driver to behind the firebox, but other than that...


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 28 May 2012 12:24 AM 
Pete, if you're looking for a bit of inspiration for that engine project, how about an 1890s D&RG 10 wheeler? You'd have to move the third driver to behind the firebox, but other than that...  
How about an 1890s East Broad Top ten-wheeler (which was the inspiration for the project in the first place.)



















The third driver is an issue - shame that Bachmann's ET&WNC prototype had equally spaced drivers. I have finally built a chassis using the B'mann running gear, but it is waiting for me to get around to the rods. 
That boiler I made is way too big, as you can see. Accucraft's new D&RGW T-12 4-6-0 is pretty close to another of the EBT ten-wheelers, Kevin tells me, so we'll see...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, this engine has a long straight boiler, but it does seem smaller in diameter than the one you built, in relation to the drivers. If you could find a plastic pipe that would work with the smokebox from the big hauler boiler, that might be closer to the right diameter for this engine. 
Doesn't the T-12 have a wagon top boiler? That wouldn't work for this engine.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If you could find a plastic pipe that would work with the smokebox from the big hauler boiler, that might be closer to the right diameter for this engine 
I spent a long time looking for a piece of plastic pipe. Never found one. The other problem is that those drivers are 48" diameter (the boiler isn't that small) while bachmanns are 42" or so in Fn3. Not sure why I started that boiler in the first place! 

Doesn't the T-12 have a wagon top boiler? 
Yes - EBT had a couple like that. My photo is second #4, but #9 and #10 were more like a T-12.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Pete, all the EBT 10-wheelers had straight boilers. The only EBT locos to have wagon-top boilers were the first nos. 3 - 5. Number 9 (the 2nd-hand Mogul) may have had a slight taper to her boiler, but it wasn't very pronounced if it was there. (The lighting in the photo of #9 at Mt. Union gives the impression it may, but the geometry of the domes and other fittings aren't conclusive. When they built #5 ostensibly to the same drawings as that loco, it came with a straight boiler. 

Later, 

K


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Do you have any idea what diameter the boiler was on that EBT 10 wheeler?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Number 4 had a 52" diameter boiler, so with the lagging, etc., add another 6" or so to that. 

Later, 

K


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

As best I can measure, the large diameter part of the boiler on my Big Hauler 10 wheeler comes to 61 inches in 1/20.3 scale. If the boiler on # 4 was about 58 inches or so with the lagging, that's a pretty close match. It's pretty hard to argue about a 3 scale inch difference.  
That would mean that the straight boiler that Pete made from a couple of donors is actually pretty darned close to correct diameter.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 29 May 2012 09:33 AM 
As best I can measure, the large diameter part of the boiler on my Big Hauler 10 wheeler comes to 61 inches in 1/20.3 scale. If the boiler on # 4 was about 58 inches or so with the lagging, that's a pretty close match. It's pretty hard to argue about a 3 scale inch difference.  
That would mean that the straight boiler that Pete made from a couple of donors is actually pretty darned close to correct diameter. 

Well, I have a copy of the Baldwin blueprints, and my notes (from when my boiler was produced) say it was 230" x 56". The 5" made a big difference - it wouldn't look right.

Then there was the question of the 48" drivers. We now have a source or two - if you want to strip a $3,000 loco just to get the wheels off - but we didn't then.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Pete, do the blueprints for #4 specify 56" for the boiler diameter (without lagging, etc.)? 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin - I replied in an email. I don't think everyone else is quite as interested as we are!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

So I've made some very slow progress--or maybe not. I shortened the boiler and roughed out a new cab. But the propertions look all wrong. The Annie's boiler is much too wide. If I make the cab to fit the drawing below, it seems too low, although the roof is falling right about where it should in relation to the dones. But the domes look too big. Or something


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I really like the looks of your ten-wheeler Mike!







Nice work so far. Looking forward to the finish product.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, you are right, the boiler diameter and the domes. I don't think the reducing the size of the domes alone will solve the issue. I'd scale the cab up (taller) until it looks right. 

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

But the domes look too big. Or something 
I've always thought the domes look too big for a smaller-scale loco. Maybe just replace the sand dome? Or cut 1/8" out of the height ? 

And I agree your cab looks a little too low?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you!

So far all I think I've accomplished is to mess up a perfectly good Annie!

The cab is the right size for the plan, but the boiler being too big messes up the look I think. I'm going to bring the cab up 1/4 inch or so, see if that improves it


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that will make a significant difference. Don't give up! 

p.s. QSI called today, overnighting my beta Titan.... should have it tomorrow afternoon. I do believe that the pilot production run has commenced also. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Good news about QSI. If I'm lucky, this will be done in time to get a QSI card.





Ok, so thanks to all who offered advice. I'm hoping this thread will someday be useful for someone else




So I added a little less than 1/4 to the cab, and I think it's about perfect. I had to make a new front, and I dummied up a roof






















That's a 1:30 figure from Hong Kong in the cab.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

What about making a new boiler? It's easy enough to do, and then you'd have it to scale. How much is it off by?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Making a new boiler would be the right thing to do, but I went into this thinking it would be a small project, easy to do. First I'd ghave to make a wagon top boiler, which is beyond my skill level, and then the problem with the Annie--for me--is attaching the boiler to the frame.

I just lowered the domes by around 1/4 inch--i'll post pictures later

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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well it's still off as the cab window is still flush with the boiler. One could cut down the domes font and rear and it would help to bring it into proportion. To me the cab still looks off. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks again to everyone who replied. It really helps to have someone else looking at it. I cut the domes down by about 1/4 in the front, 1/8 in the back. 


I think it looks better with the domes cut down, but now the cab windows seem off to me. I put a sill on the rear window and that made it look too small, maybe. 



The cab is almost exactly the same size as the one aristo uses on its Pacific/Mikado. So I assume it's more more less right. If it gets much taller, it will start to look narrow gage. 



It may be that you just can't make a good standard gage model out of an Annie without doing more major surgery. 

I went into this thinking it would be fairly simple, but that boiler is a problem.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Try lowering the windows just a bit. When you raised the cab (which helped), it looks like you didn't change the windows, so they sit higher. Drop the bottom edge maybe 1/4" or so and see what that gets you proportionally. To start, maybe just take a black Sharpie and color the bottom of the opening before making any cuts to give you a visual reference as to what it might look like. The sill should be about halfway down the side of the cab, about 3 - 3.5' from the floor from very rough paper-on-screen measurements of the drawings. But definitely, you want the bottom sill low enough to where you can stand and rest your arms comfortably on it. Your poor fireman is up to his armpits. 

Later, 

K


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

When i looked this morning at your model and the drawing, I really liked the lines you had of the model. The proportions looked great with the cab and the boiler size. But there was still something about the cab I couldn't put my finger on. Then you and Kevin mentioned the size of the windows. Eureka! I think that was it. By raising the cab a little and not lowering the bottom window sill, that might be the problem. My Gene Allen ten-wheeler live steamer has a typical Baldwin cab with it's signature roof line. The windows are a little larger than what you have. You might try to experiment with that a little and see if that works for you. All in alll, I think you will have a very nice looking locomotive IMHO.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Bingo! I lowered the windows and it came together very nicely. The boiler is still too big, but it's starting to come together. Pictures in the morning


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

As for the domes, comparing the drawing to the engine picture, it looks like you would be able to use the sand dome for the steam dome, and find a smaller dome for the sand dome. The sand dome looked about the right size for the steam dome in the drawing. Just an idea for you.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you--I thought that too, at first, but if you look at the plan next to the Annie the dones are much closer to the plan in size. The annie's sand dome would be much too small. The domes on the plan are about the same height, but narrower.

It might work to replace the domes, but I'm going to go ahead with what I have. I can always cut them off later!


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

You did the right thing in lowering the domes and cab. You may want to try raising the boiler 1/8" or more, experimenting by putting matchstick spacers ( or some such) atop the cylinder saddle and raising the rear end the same amount. The Effect should be significant. 

Cheers


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I managed to get a bit more done but work and life are intervening. Made some cab doors. They won't open and close, but I will probably leave them both glued open. The one in the picture is wedged in place with a bit of paper. I'll add a window shade and rivet detail. I glued the smokebox back together and glued the lowered domes.







Now it's mostly down to filling/sanding, filling/sanding, filling/sanding


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking very nice. Are you planning on straight running boards, like the drawing? Or, are you going to keep the Annie look and not fill the front part slot?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Those changes to the windows really made a difference Mike! 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Bruce Chandler on 02 Jun 2012 04:38 PM 
Looking very nice. Are you planning on straight running boards, like the drawing? Or, are you going to keep the Annie look and not fill the front part slot? 
Bruce I'd like to give it straight running boards but I'm not sure how I'd manage the attachment. I'll need to think about that!


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, you have at least a couple of options for attachments. 
On one of mine, I just ran some square tube right through the boiler and used that for support in the front. 
On another, I used some thin brass strip that I folded to the correct angle - and pinned it directly to the boiler. 

Just remember to leave room for the weight.









I'm sure there's some other ways as well...


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By Tom Leaton on 02 Jun 2012 02:11 PM 
You may want to try raising the boiler 1/8" or more, experimenting by putting matchstick spacers ( or some such) atop the cylinder saddle and raising the rear end the same amount. 

The way the boiler has its bottom as part of the chassis molding, that would be a major event.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Bruce Chandler on 03 Jun 2012 06:14 AM 
Mike, you have at least a couple of options for attachments. 
On one of mine, I just ran some square tube right through the boiler and used that for support in the front. 
On another, I used some thin brass strip that I folded to the correct angle - and pinned it directly to the boiler. 

Just remember to leave room for the weight.









I'm sure there's some other ways as well... 


Actually looking around I see that the Ma and Pa ten wheelers (#27 and #28) each had a raised walkway with air tank under it on one side, but on opposite sides. The one in the drawing, #28, had it on the engineer's side, and #27 on the fireman's side. 
Here's #27 on each side: 



;














So maybe I'l make one side straight and the other bi-level. 


You can see in these picture how the Annie's large boiler makes it hard to get the cab right


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I will add my two bits in and say that it's coming along really well! The dimensions are now well within what "looks" right for a standard gauge engine!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks again to everyone who has replied--it's been a great help.

More progress, more problems



Decided on a straight running board on the engineer's side. The patch came out well, and the running board does not actually go uphill--the boiler is just sitting a little high on the saddle. Vaguely 1:29-ish man is small, but not outlandishly small, next to that boiler. I will probably replace the stock Annie "cowcatcher" with a brass one I have, or maybe I'll fabricate a freight-style pilot.

One serious problem with the thing which you can't see here is that now the running gear, the valve motion, sticks out well beyond the running boards. It looks odd. I can't really make the running boards wider without making the cab wider, which make s it look narrow gage again. I don't think I can manage narrowing the running gear. Can that be done?

Below, though, things look a little worse yet



Vaguely 1:29-ish man is standing next to a gigantic air pump, something that might have come off the _Titanic_. And the Annie air tank/raised running board is now too wide. I think there's a Trackside details order in my future.

Predictably, this started as something that was going to be fairly simple and straightforward and has now wound up much more complicated!


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## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

I like it! 

The new cab fits perfectly, and so does the brass cowcatcher. 

Alec


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Jun 2012 11:38 AM 
Thanks again to everyone who has replied--it's been a great help. 

More progress, more problems 










Decided on a straight running board on the engineer's side. The patch came out well, and the running board does not actually go uphill--the boiler is just sitting a little high on the saddle. Vaguely 1:29-ish man is small, but not outlandishly small, next to that boiler. I will probably replace the stock Annie "cowcatcher" with a brass one I have, or maybe I'll fabricate a freight-style pilot. 

One serious problem with the thing which you can't see here is that now the running gear, the valve motion, sticks out well beyond the running boards. It looks odd. I can't really make the running boards wider without making the cab wider, which make s it look narrow gage again. I don't think I can manage narrowing the running gear. Can that be done? 

Below, though, things look a little worse yet 










Vaguely 1:29-ish man is standing next to a gigantic air pump, something that might have come off the _Titanic_. And the Annie air tank/raised running board is now too wide. I think there's a Trackside details order in my future. 

Predictably, this started as something that was going to be fairly simple and straightforward and has now wound up much more complicated! 
Mike,

Your bash looks great to me. Very nice work! 

Can I make a suggestion regarding the running board width? How much would you have to add to the running board width to make it look right to you? Going back to my 7 1/2 inch gauge ten-wheeler, my cab sits on an extension of the running board castings. When the cab sits on this casting, there is a small ledge on the bottom of the cab side walls. About 3/8th of an inch on each side on my engine. Just reduce this figure to 1/29th scale. You would have to scratch-build some new running boards though. Just a suggestion.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you!

I'd probably have to add just under 1/4 in 1/1 to the running boards on either side to have them come out to cover the valve gear. I could just add a styrene strip, and maybe cheat it down, so it tapered back towards the cab. It might work--maybe add 1/8 to each side and cheat it back as it approached the cab? Then I could get away with using the Annie's stock air tank. But it would probably be too obvious a taper and look weird.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Jun 2012 12:23 PM 
Thank you! 

I'd probably have to add just under 1/4 in 1/1 to the running boards on either side to have them come out to cover the valve gear. I could just add a styrene strip, and maybe cheat it down, so it tapered back towards the cab. It might work--maybe add 1/8 to each side and cheat it back as it approached the cab? Then I could get away with using the Annie's stock air tank. But it would probably be too obvious a taper and look weird. 
My ten-wheeler is patterned after a generic Baldwin. Possibly a MA&PA or even a Wabash. The running boards on my loco are narrower at the front (near the smoke box and then make a gentle s-curve to increase width at the steam pump and cab, if this is any help. I haven't run my steamer in about eight years (since the loss of sight in one eye). It is stord in my transport trailer now. If you need a photo as reference, I can try to unload it and get some photos for you. Might take me a while. But I think you have the idea though.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think I can manage narrowing the running gear. Can that be done? 
Well, you've managed to solve most of the other problems - of course it can be done! 

Whether you want to attempt it is another, entirely different question. The danget is that you won't maintain adequate clearances to keep the rods from impacting. Having wheels that are wide isn't helping. 

First question is whether just narrowing the gear at the top - where the reversing bracket drives the piston rod - will do the trick. If you look at the Annie cylinders, you'll find the valve chest (square top portion) sticks out further than the cylinders. 

I always reckoned that the wide saddle and valve chests were designed for a std gauge loco (in 1:22.5) and Baldwin moved the cylinders inwards to match the 3' gauge drivers. 

I have a set of cylinders somewhere (I think) with the cylinder portion cut off and re-mounted in the same vertical plane. The plan was to make a standard gauge loco in the larger scale. Let me look for them and see if I can post a photo. 

Edit +1 hr










Them's pretty big valve chests. You can see the curve on the outside of the cylinders - on second thoughts, they were small cylinders added to large valve chests - imho.

You could narrow them - or use smaller ones like the set on the Delton/Aristo C-16. Someone around here has lots of parts. 
P.S. In the junk box where I found them are two more sets of cylinders - one complete and one pair cut off the saddle. PM me if you want one!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, thanks. I looked at it last night and thought about narrowing the saddle to bring everything in towards the center, but moving or replacing the cylinders would be a better idea. The I suppose I'd cut down the rods connecting the two sides of the valve gear, and then--as you say, here's the tricky part--hope they don't bind on curves. 

I'll have to think about this. The trackwork on our layout is pretty crude, and it sees a lot of little kid action. What ever I do has to be reasonably robust and forgiving


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I got impatient this weekend and decided to start painting. Maybe a mistake. The paint is, for the boiler and cab, Krylon camouflage olive, rubbed all over with powdered graphite. It's not based on any particular prototype color scheme, it's based on the fact that my wife complains about too many "black steam engines." 

The smokebox is scalecoat smokebox gray coated with neolube. I ran out of neo-lube before I could finish the running gear/rods. 

The cab has fake rivets added using Jerry Barne's foil tape and ponce wheel method. 

I like it OK, but I think the verdict I'm settling on is that it's hard to make an Annie into standard gage without reducing the diameter of the boiler and narrowing the valve gear 



I have a few detail parts coming from trackside--air pump for one thing, and hand rail stanchions.

So I'm wondering--is the headlight too small? The generator? Both are from the parts bin. Is the bell too big? I have a taller/narrower stack that would fit--that might be better.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

You ought to be very proud of what you have accomplished thus far.Absolutely beautiful looking ten-wheeler! To my eye, the lines and proportions are perfect. The generator and bell look fine to me. The headlight may be a little small, but I would "live with it" for a while to see. The cab really turned out nice.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Headlight, bell, generator, look good to me. Go cruise through the steam gallery here http://www.northeast.railfan.net/ should put your mind at ease about those, or at least it does my mind. 

for example, Nevada Northern 4-6-0 http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_nn40.jpgeven though h/l looks, and may well be bigger.
CNW http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_cnw1385.jpg
C&O http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co377s.jpg 

Canadian 2-6-0 where h/l looks about same proportion as yours 
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_67/f_06471.gif


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 10 Jun 2012 10:44 AM 
It's not based on any particular prototype color scheme, it's based on the fact that my wife complains about too many "black steam engines."
I'm with her on that








IIRC, for a period in late 1880s early 1890s, not confident dates are 100% accurate, Baldwin and other builders too, did use a dark olive green and not black. Lettering and striping was often imitation aluminum. Check with other folks for precise confirmation of the above - for example the Early Rail Yahoo Group. And was something about same in Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette around 10 years ago.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you again. The olive green came out reasonably well and shifts dramatically with the light, which is the effect I wanted. I need to decide if I want striping and what color. Olive green with gold was fairly common, as I understand it. But silver/white would look pretty sharp. 

I'm going to have to deal with the tender soon. It needs to be shorter, lower, and narrower


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 10 Jun 2012 01:08 PM 
The olive green came out reasonably well and shifts dramatically with the light, which is the effect I wanted.

Cool! Would like to see that in person 
Hey, got in the mood to play in Google and found this http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/s...finish.htm

Quote:

_A great deal of research has been done in regards to the factory paint schemes of the Baldwin locomotive works. Thanks to this research a clearer picture has emerged of what Baldwin's locomotives looked like in both color and finish when they left the factory and entered service. Baldwin's schemes went from opulent wine-red and red wheels in the early 1870s, to elegant Lake brown by the mid decade, and then to a dark Olive green by the start of the 1880s. The dark olive green would remain Baldwin's standard color for steam locomotives, unless specified otherwise by the buyer, well into the 20th Century. As a result, most of the Logging Mallets were olive green when they left the factory. The large mainline railroads, which had massive locomotive fleets, often requested plain black with no stripes after the 1880s, but short lines and industrial railroads tended to leave the painting up to Baldwin._

I wondered about that, and hey, it matches my preference anyway!

_In typical Baldwin practice the entire engine would be olive green, down to the frames and axles. Put simply, these were olive green locomotives, not black engines with a few olive green parts. The above diagram is a visual representation of how a logging Mallet would be painted from the factory: The only non-green parts would have been the smokebox, stack, and firebox, all of which would have been blackened, either with graphite or some other mixture. Also, the boiler jackets on some of the early logging Mallets were planished iron, a highly reflective material with a medium grey color. Planished iron would take on the color of its surroundings, such as a blue sky, resulting in the common perception of the material having a blue tint. Another feature worth mentioning is that Baldwin was known to paint walking surfaces, like running board and tender tops, with unvarnished mineral paint, usually a red-brown similar to freight car paint. This was because these areas would be subject to more use and punishment than other areas and need frequent repainting. These mineral paint areas however would not affect the overall look of the factory scheme, as they generally could not bee seen from an observer on the ground. Cab roofs on new engines were also painted with mineral paint. _


And, well whatcha know about that, is asked here!
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


_03 Mar 2010 09:34 PM 
_
_Would anyone know what color "bottle green" would look like in reference to a Baldwin locomotive of the late 1800s? _


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I hate to say anything less than positive about such a beautiful model, but you might want to know.. 

You would not usually see rivets at the edge of the cylinder jacket. There might be a few to hold it in place, but in general the jacket would have been attached behind the scenes, as it were, and show no rivets or fasteners at all. Of course, specific prototypes could have been different, but overall I would avoid their use unless you know they're prototypical.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I looked at it last night and thought about narrowing the saddle to bring everything in towards the center, but moving or replacing the cylinders would be a better idea. 
Don't try narrowing the saddle - the frames sit between the saddle and the cylinders - you can see in my photo where the bottom of the valve chests stop and the straight part begins. That's where the frame fits. 

I think your cylinders are fine - its the valve chests that look a bit big. Leave the cylinders alone and you won't have any bind problems with the main rods. 

My older units have the end cap moulded on, but the main piston rod assembly pops off the other end and can be re-mounted at any angle. So you could attempt what I started - cut the cylinders off, narrow the valve chests and reset the cylinders at whatever angle they work best. Want my spare to practice on?


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking very nice.

I'd take some Neolube and blacken all the valve gear and drivers...


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By Bruce Chandler on 11 Jun 2012 10:50 AM 
Looking very nice.

I'd take some Neolube and blacken all the valve gear and drivers... 


But the he'd have to explain the Neolube to the wife - 

Posted By lownote on 10 Jun 2012 10:44 AM


... my wife complains about too many "black steam engines."


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I ran out of neolube! Micromark just shipped me some more. 

Pete, thank you-- i need to think about that some


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The loco looks great. I can't say I'm a big fan of Neolube, though, at least not on the valve gear and drivers. The drivers should be painted to match the loco. For the valve gear, I've found coating the shiny metal valve gear with a clear matte does wonders. You get the look of unpainted steel, but it''s not glaringly shiny and takes weathering very well. I use Badger's ModelFlex dull-coat. It brushes on well and dries nice and flat. It also stands up well to the rigors of running, resisting chipping and peeling that I've had with other finishes. And the main piston rod would definitely be a polished silver color. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Took half a day off and it rained which allowed me to postpone the yard chores. I made some progress. The loco is getting closer to done. 

The color scheme is "borrowed" from Kevin Strong's recent Tuscarora loco. The silver striping is Pactra tape. The paint is still Krylon camo olive with a lot of powdered graphite rubbed over it. 

I'm fairly happy with it. It's too wide in a lot of places, and of course it needs patching and painting and lettering and a tender. But I think if the question is "can you make an Annie into a standard gage loco?" the answer is yes, especially if you're nearsighted and not too picky







The handrails were made out of stuff I had on had, and they are too small, I think. But too small is probably better than too big if I want a standard gage look. I added a tool box to the walkway on the engineer's side.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Nice work Mike, it looks really good. 

Cheers 
Neil


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Wow! I really, Really, REALLY! like that.


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Very well done.

I was struck by how similar it looks to one of my old pictures.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Is that a 1:32 model of the young Bruce Chandler? What's the story on that loco? It's pretty much exactly the look I want.

Thank you all again. If you see anything that needs correcting, let me know--I might not be able to do it, but I can try. Last night I added sand lines and electrical lines and some piping. I need to extend the injector line and plumb the air pump. I always find the air pumps hard.

The loco should really have two air tanks, so I might make one.

I'm probably going to letter it for the southern. In the late 19th century up through 1912, the Southern ran a branch line from Alexandria VA to Bluemont VA. It passed within a mile of our house. The line was bought by the Washington and Old Dominion, which gradually electrified it and ran it at a loss till the 1960s. For about a decade, it leased locos from the Southern. 

So I'm imagining this loco as running in about 1910, on a branch line with mixed freight and passenger service. 

I know the Southern is famous for green and gold, and the websites oin the southern specific green and gold, but Baldwin made olive green and silver its standard color from the 1890s through 1910, and I'm not sur the southern used green and gold in 1910.

And anyway I like the look of olive and silver!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"I'm not sur the southern used green and gold in 1910." 

Mike; 

Probably not. 1910 was prior to the Railway Grouping in England. President Spencer (of the Southern Ry) got the idea for the green livery on a trip to England, where he saw a similar livery on the Southern Ry's (of England) passenger locomotives. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Playing in Google found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Railway_%28Great_Britain%29#Livery which gives 1912 as the UK Southern's first use of green.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

According to Wikipedia, Spencer died in 1906, 4 years before the UK southern, according to wikipedia, went to green. 

DR Rickman sent me to some excellent resources on the US Southern, which seem to suggest that the southern was using green and gold early in the twentieth century, but not the famous green and gold you see today. I need to sort this out!


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Southern Ry. (US) painted their engines black with gold lettering prior to 1926. After that date, passenger engines were delivered or repainted in green with gold lettering. The Ps-4 pacifics (such as 1401 in the Smithsonian) were the first to be delivered in the new scheme. There were three basic variations - the Crescent Limited, double stripe, and single stripe. The Crescent scheme was essentially the double stripe scheme, with crescents on the cylinders and cab, and different lettering. The choice between double and single stripe seems to have been primarily up to the paint shop foreman when the engine was painted, although it seems that the double stripes were more common early on (and probably how Southern ordered the engines when they were purchased). 

Freight engines were of course always painted black, so the black "freight scheme" is a good indication of what a Southern passenger engine would have looked like prior to 1926. The smokeboxes on all the engines were a light gray graphite, although the exact shade varied from almost silver to nearly charcoal, again depending on the shop. In general, the color was much lighter prior to about 1940, so that it looks like silver paint in early photos. I make mine with a 50/50 mix of silver and gray paint. 

So, the short answer is that your engine should be black with a light gray graphite smokebox. The dark green boiler might or might not be accurate for a variety of Southern-owned short lines, most of which had used equipment and their own paint shops. Black and green look so similar that it is almost impossible to tell without reference material from the builder, but the engines would almost certainly have been repainted black as needed.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

OOPS! Sorry, must have been another Southern Railway president. The account I had read stated it was the president of the US Southern Railway, and I did not have my reference material handy, as I was at work. Ususally remember most details, but I'll just have to list that as a "senior moment." 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you Dave. DK Rickman seems to have the definitive account.


Well, it's just about done, and I'm going to leave it like this for a while while I think about colors and about the tender.





























In general I'm pretty pleased with it. The legacy of 1:22 is really clear in the wide running gear and the oversize details on the running gear. But on the whole I think it looks like a standard gauge loco. I'm going to set it aside for a while while I figure out how to do the tender, which has to be narrowed, shortened, and lowered. I have no idea, at the moment, how I'll do that!


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Tenders are pretty straight forward to make from scratch. 


I'm a bit prejudiced, but I think it turned out rather nice:










You can see how I did one: http://jbrr.com/html/tender1.html 



I'd sure do that rather than keep those giant rivets on the Annie tender.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I remember that tender of your Bruce--it's a beauty. I like how your images make it look really easy! Sure! 

The Annie tender is kind of problematic though


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 14 Jun 2012 10:00 AM 
The Annie tender is kind of problematic though Why? I have to agree with Bruce - build it from scratch. A newer Southern Ry. or USRA style tender would go a long way toward helping the engine look modern and standard gauge. Something like these:
















The first is VERY typical of Southern Ry. with the long coal space. I suspect that Southern leaned toward tenders with relatively little water space, as they had plenty of water available, and frequently hard work for small engines. Whatever the reason, Southern tenders were unusually small and biased toward coal over water.

If it helps, I can provide drawings (in DXF or PDF format) for a Southern 7,500 Gallon tender as used behind the Ks class 2-8-0s - the various classes frequently had similar or even identical tenders - and sometimes tenders moved around among different classes.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Uh, I probably shouldn't bring this up, but I will anyway. It may be too small, but I was musing whether the Lionel LS Atlantic's tender could be bashed for this project. It may be too narrow, but some TLC with a band saw may allow you to widen it out. I haven't seen one of those locomotives since ECLSTS, so my idea of its size is a little fuzzy. 

Just another $0.02, 
David Meashey


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave, I have four of those LS Atlantic tenders running--you're right that it would be a good fit. One behind a lionel atlantic, two behind atantics converted to consols, and one behind an aristo Pacific cut down to an Atlantic. I want something that looks a little different!

Just make it yourself--yes sure, but I don't have any styrene tube, Id' have to mail order it, and I don't know what size, etc etc. I started cutting up the Annie tender, just to see what I end up with.

I'm also thinking about cutting down an Aristo tender from a Pacific


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Aw man, now that you repast that point, just remembered this way to mount the whistle to look a bit more 1910-ish.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa309/FSW4picts/G%20gauge%20projects/IMG_7209.jpg


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

You don't need styrene tube. Get creative! How about dowels and wood blocks to form the basic shape, followed by a wrapper of embossed foil tape? Or you can use sheet brass, styrene, or even paper and lacquer/varnish/shellac. All you need is some way to form the shape, and then add rivets, details, etc.

I suspect you're thinking that it's too hard to make a good looking scratchbuilt tender, but it's really not that hard. It's nothing but a box with rounded corners and some rivets on it. Carve it out of foam, a block of wood, anything you like to work in. Try it - the worst that happens is that you've spent a few hours and learned something new. The best thing is that you have a new tender!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Mounting that whistle on the side is a great idea--I'll do that.

I have a bunch of aristo tender shells, and I'd just as soon get rid of them . Something like this maybe? Looks a little odd, but some of those southern tenders look a little odd to me too


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey--that might just work!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Took an aristo tender shell that was taking up space and cut it down. Set it on a piece of acrylic and some trucks:













Not bad, not bad at all. Maybe a little high?


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Too high? I don't think so. Notice that the top of the tank lines up with the bottom of the windows, much like the prototype. The coal boards are a little high, though, and the curve looks really out of place. Two suggestions: 
1. Cut them off and make new ones. Same length, about half the height, and matching angles front and back. 
2. Soften them in boiling water and massage them flat, then cut off about half the height. It might be easier to do this if you cut them off the tender first. 

Also, move that rear truck back, and put a steel channel frame under the tank.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'll second Ken's thoughts on the curved top. From what I can see from the photos, there appears to be a seam along the top where you can make a cut and install straight sides in its place. No Bondo needed. Evergreen makes some half-round styrene that makes great beading on the top edge of tenders. I use the .040" or .060" stuff if I recall. Do that, and I think you'll have a definite winner. (Sure beats the snot out of embossing a whole tender worth of rivets--a task that currently awaits me in my workshop that I'm still steadfastly avoiding--and I even have a rivet press to make the job easy!) 

If there's one other thing I'd consider revisiting, it would be the front pilot. It sits far too high off the rails. I'd lower it by around 1/4", and put a proper working coupler on the front set at the appropriate height to whatever flavor of coupler you're using. Chances are good that you'd have to lower the coupler on the pilot to be compatible anyway, so why not make it operable, the right height, and bring the bottom edge of the cow catcher low enough to where the cow won't just slide underneath.  

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks very much. The trucks are just resting on a piece of square acrylic. Just now I cut the aristo frame down and set the trucks on that, and that makes it MUCH too high. So I'll have to cut some off the base.

The aristo coal boards are hard to explain--they're molded to the shell and the're no way they could be straightened. I'll have to either cut them off or live with them as they are.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 14 Jun 2012 05:52 PM 


If there's one other thing I'd consider revisiting, it would be the front pilot. It sits far too high off the rails. I'd lower it by around 1/4", and put a proper working coupler on the front set at the appropriate height to whatever flavor of coupler you're using. Chances are good that you'd have to lower the coupler on the pilot to be compatible anyway, so why not make it operable, the right height, and bring the bottom edge of the cow catcher low enough to where the cow won't just slide underneath.  

Later, 

K 


Curses--you caught that. I made a dumb mistake with the pilot--I cut it back and then shortened the braces ato fit, then realized that I had set the braces with the pilot resting ON the stump of the frame, rather than meeting the frame on a butt joint. Just pure hasty dumbness. I've been trying to figure out what to do about it.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 14 Jun 2012 03:25 PM 
Mounting that whistle on the side is a great idea--I'll do that.


Aw, thanks! Picture was taken before adding a second safety valve in hole where whistle used to be.

Yep, that tender can be made to work.
And as far as the overall project, This baby's going places


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Tender came together quickly last night, and I was able to paint it this afternoon:










The pinstripes are gold auto pinstripes. 

I like the silver better, but the gold is period-correct for the Southern Railway, which is what this will be badged for. Gold, or silver?


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

If you like the silver better, go with silver (and silver lettering). Justify is as an early paint scheme - remember that Southern was formed in 1894 as a collection of many smaller railroads, and it never really lost that disjointed feel. Maybe this was ordered right before that time and delivered right around the merger, or a few years after, before Southern had standardized things like paint schemes.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I just sat the loco and tender on the breakfast table and poled my managing partners (wife and seven year old daughter). They both decided on gold. So I'll be emailing an order into Stan Cedarleaf later today. 

Today I'll fix the pilot and start wiring it for DCC


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That engine really looks good! It really looks like a standard gauge engine now!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

We went off for a week's vacation at the beach. While we were gone, the "derecho" hit the Northern Virginia area. We've had no power for four days, although some of our neighbors got power back today. I'm writing this from the public library, which is open and has wireless.

I'm a little worried that the intense lightening may have fried the electronics in some of the locos, which are stored on the track in a shed. But there's no way to tell until power's restored.

So being bored and unable to do much work, I decided to try and apply the decals by the limited natural light in my workshop. Mistake! But here it is lettered, with figures added (chinese "1:30" figures from ebay, repainted and repositioned). The tender came out ok--I got impatient towards the end. "Coal" is aquarium charcoal over insulation foam.

I'd love to try it out--but no electricity! Maybe tomorrow I'll set it on the track, put some cars behind it, and snap a few pictures. I've set up a builder's log detailing the process which I'll publish when I get some "on the track" pictures


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## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

That turned out very smart and looks in proportion. 

Alec


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Easily and by far the best and most credible standard guage conversion of the Annie I've seen, it has a really good feel to it. If there was only one thing - I'd change the pilot over to something that ran down closer to the rail head - the one on the loco is too high to be much use. But regardless, an excellent loco and project. 
Thanks for sharing, 
David.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice. Makes me think about taking a zona saw to my Annie.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

VERY nice work! Not only does it not look like an Annie or narrow gauge, but it also does not look as old fashioned. It has that muscular look of a late steam era branch line passenger engine, and it _definitely_ looks Southern! I'm impressed.

It is crying out for a nice long Southern pilot, though.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks very much everyone. It has a decoder installed, and it's all ready to go, but we still don't have power--six days with no electricity here. And it's over 100 degrees. Dominion power says they re coming tonight, between 6 pm and midnight 

I'm going to post a builder's log after I test run it a little. 

The pilot is way off, I agree. I already lowered it, but clearly not enough. It's pretty solidly attached at this point, too. I'll have to work on it. 

Then I've got a set of aristo sierra cars that I plan to cut up and combine into reasonable length, late-period wooden coaches.


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## trainbuffjr (Jan 11, 2008)

Very Nice Job! I am thinking of trying something like this. Very Inspiring!


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## PVRR_Adam (Nov 17, 2010)

One heck of an impressive build! You'd hardly recognize the original without knowing.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Great job!!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks very much for the compliments--I'm learning as I go.

I made a builder's log of the whole thing and posted it under "Lownote's adventures in modeling."

It runs pretty well, although I didn't give it an extensive test. Our power finally came back on at 4:5 am yesterday morning. The track is a mess, and it's literally 98 degrees in the shade right now. It's like India out there.

Now it needs some coaches. 


I took a shot yesterday of the 4-6-0 with two Hartland "long coaches:"










And with two coaches I downsized out of Bachmann coaches, lengthened and lowered:










Somebody ought to make a few 1:29 long wooden passenger coaches--say, 55 scale feet long. Wooden coaches up to 70 feet long were in use well into the 20th century on branch lines and smaller standard gauge roads. I picked up some aristo sierra coaches and am thinking about kitbashing them into longer, lower 1:29 coaches, as Marty Cozad did not long ago. 


But I'm also thinking it might be easier to just scratch build the darn things


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Turned out very nice, Mike. How's it compare to your other 1:29 locos? 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 09 Jul 2012 12:05 AM 
Turned out very nice, Mike. How's it compare to your other 1:29 locos? 

Later, 

K Good questions--I'll take some pictures of it next to some other 1:29 locos. The problem, of course is the looseness of "1:29." Aristo sells a lot of stuff as 1:29 which really ain't. I have a couple consolidations kitbashed out of lionel atlantics--what scale are they? They aren't 1:24, but the cab is too big to be 1:29. I have an aristo pacific cut down to make an atlantic--I'll try that one, and the Aristo 0-4-0.

If I were starting over, I'd commit to either 1:32 or 1:20.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Some comparison photos:

Here is is next to an aristo 0-4-0. The 0-4-0 has been repainted and "detailed" but is otherwise stock:










And here it is next to an Aristo Pacific which was cut down into an Atlantic. It's basically a Pacific, but shorter by about three inches:




















I think it's about right--it's maybe a little too small, but the Ma & Pa prototype was a small 4-6-0. The Pennsy A5 was a pretty beefy 0-4-0. It seems to me it's reasonable by the "eyeball" standard


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Very, very nicely done.... Great transformation...... Looks wonderful with the coaches....


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was glancing through a 20-year-old magazine today and stumbled on a couple of photos of a std gauge 4-6-0 that looked remarkably like the Bachmann ten-wheeler. I thought it might be of interest in the future as far as dimensions and proportions are comncerned? (Sorry it's not the greatest scan.) I was struck by the small cab and tall stack.


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote your ten wheeler and coaches are beautiful , well done . 

Several years ago , I had lettered my Bachamn ten wheeler for the NYC , and had taken it to an old scale nut model railroader long time friend of mine , .........and his first words were , why is the cab so big ? I wish that I could show him your ten wheeler .


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## NorthwestGarrattGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

blorp


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