# LGB Conversion



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

This is my first project of this kind so forgive me if I ask some basic (stupid) questions. I've started the process of installing a Locolinc receiver and Soundlinc in my great-nephew's LGB 2-4-0 starter set steam engine. I'm not sure of the engine name, but thanks to a prior posting by Peter Bunce, I was able to find a blow-up at http://lgb.vaneten.nl/database/ under number 20232p-1. Our tender doesn't include sound so the tender wiring is a simple connection from the front connector to the rear light, rather than all the wiring shown in the blow-up. I haven't dug into the engine far enough to be sure the motor is isolated, but I suspect it is.

My intent is to have a battery car and install the receiver and sound in the tender. I have two questions at this time:

1) There are three lights, all I believe to be 5V incandescents. Locolinc says that if bulbs are 5V instead of 12V to install a series resistor to reduce voltage, but doesn't specify the resistor. If I go to Radio Shack and tell them what I'm trying to do will they be able to give me what I need?

2) The lights consist of a head light, tender light and cab light. The Locolinc instructions are pretty clear about how to connectthe head and tender lights. Any thoughts about how to connect the cab light? Can I use the ditch light output (750ma) on the receiver (KLR105B) for the 5V cab light? They don't specify the voltage of this output. This output only works in forward While not ideal, that would be ok.

3) I'd like to be able to rertain and switch on and off the smoke unit, so that on occasions when smoke is more important than run time, the smoke unit can be used. Any thoughts on how I can do this? I believe the smoke unit is 5V. The Locolinc receiver has two of what they call "5V logic level" outputs. Can one of these be used for the smoke unit or is there a danger that would fry the board.

This is my first posting, but I've lurked here for a long time and am greatly impressed by the community. It is one of the bet web sites I've visited.

Owen


----------



## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have done several radio installs on LGB locos. I believe the LGB lamps dray about 40 ma. The problem that you have is the LGB circuitry. If you want the Locolinc to control all of the lights, they will not be able to connect through the LGB circuitry. To control the headlights, smoke unit, cab lights & motor with a Locolinc receiver in the tender, you will need to run at least 6 wires between the tender & the loco. If you are using the chuff sensor in the locomotive, it will be evenmore complicated. Your life will be much simpler if you forget the smoke unit.


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks, Biill. It was my intent to completely bypass the LBG board unless there is some reason I need to keep it in the loop. (For example; if the smoke unit cannot be powered and controlled using one of the Locolinc "5V logic level" outputs, can I power it by feeding power to the LGB board and leaving the smoke leads attached while removing all the others. If I try that, can I split the incoming battery wires so that they feed both the Locolinc board and the LGB board.) 

The engine and tender currently have LGB connectors for five leads, but I get your point. It seems like one way to reduce the number of wires between the engine and tender would be to put the receiver in the engine and the sound card in the tender instead of both both in the tender. I planned on using the Locolinc/Soundlinc automatic chuff control rather than tying into an external source. Doing it this way it looks like I could get by with six wires between the engine and tender and two between the tender and battery car. Guess the choice is between complicating my life and disappointing my great-nephew when he wants to know where the smoke went.

This still leaves me with the questions in my original post. It would be great if Locolinc had an active support forum, but I haven't found one. Owen


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The 20232 tender has separate wiring for the rear light in the 5 wire cable. 
Here is the basic configuration.. outer wires (1 and 5) are for track power to the rear socket. 
The other 3 wires are for 1 common to the ability of the switch in the engine to control both the rear light and sound if you have the optional sound tender. 

So just try power to the middle 3 wires to see which one lights the light and the light may be polarity sensitive if a diode is in place (I do not remember if there was a diode in the tender wiring). 

Lights in this engine like 6 volts as does the smoke generator. 

so, you do not need to run wires to the tender, just reuse what is already there. 

Typically a logic level can drive up to 20ma for a relay, not 100ma for a smoke unit. 
I have used a relay to control track power to a 24 volt smoke unit on DCC operations.


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Dan, thanks! Re the smoke unit, I was worried about current draw but couldn't find any information. You probably saved me a receiver, as, if all else failed, I would most likely have just tried it to see what happened. 

If I understand correctly, the idea for the smoke unit would be to wire it to the battery power thru a relay which in turn is controlled by the Locolinc 5V logic level output. I assume that I would also need a resister in the circuit to the smoke unit to control the voltage. Is that correct? Are there any other electronic parts I would need to include in that circuit? Owen


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Am I missing the obvious? I have been thinking that I have to eliminate the LGB circuit board and control everything directly with the Locolinc. The Locolinc has inputs for both track and battery power and an output for the motor. What if I connect the battery (and maybe the track) inputs to the Locolinc and the Locolinc motor output to the LGB board track power input and let the LGB board motor outputs stay connected to the motor. If that would work, it would seem like the LGB board would take care of the lights and smoke without the need for added electronics. From what I have read, the LGB smoke unit is on whenever the engine is receiving power so that circuit might need to have a switch to turn it off and not shorten battery run time. Will this work or am I missing something? Unfortunately, I have a tendency to overcomplicate things given enough time to think about them. Owen


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

there are some diagrams and internal photos of an 22232 (040 version of the same loco) at 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips10/lgb_22232_040_tips.html 

I converted this one to DCC and retained the board in the loco but scrapped the sound in the tender


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The smoke unit could be controlled by a relay. 
I do not know what the power output of the locolink looks like and if it is a pulsed waveform then the 0-4-0 circuit board may not like it. 

Worst case is the LGB board would fail, but you already have the locolink as the solution. 

Yes, you need to change the power for the smoke unit as it is a 6 volt unit. 

You could just install a 18 or 24 volt smoke unit. 

The Lionel versiions are 14 and 16 volt by seuthe and are the same size as the LGB ones. 

Just pick the one that is the same voltage as your battery output or slightly lower. LGB runs the 5 volt unit on 6 to 6.8 volts!!!


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

George, thanks for the well written and informative article. I understand the LGB board and the wiring s little better now, though your knowledge is light years ahead of mine. 

Dan, there is nothing in the Locolinc documentation which says the output is pulsed waveform. Then again there is nothing saying it isn't. I like your thought of just going ahead with the idea to see what happens. Even if I somehow fried both boards, I have an additional unused Locolinc receiver. I do have a question about your comments re smoke. If the Locolinc motor output were feeding what is currently the track power input on the LGB board wouldn't the LGB board circuitry take care of voltage control for the smoke unit as well as the lights? 

It will probably be a week or two before I can put things together for a trial. In the mean time, I know next to nothing and won't be insulted if someone saves me by pointing out the big holes in my plan. Owen


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB uses an internal voltage regulator circuit to create 6 volts for lights and smoke. 

I have scoped these circuits and they looked like pulsed power to me. 

Also, the motor circuit uses pulsed power.


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

After giving it some more thought, it is back to plan A: that is, scrap the LGB board and go entirely with the Locolinc. Does the fact that LGB uses pulsed power mean that I am going to have problems with the motor if the Locolinc doesn't? 

Not sure what to do about the smoke unit. One appealing thing about the one in the engine now is that it apparently can be left on all the time, with or without fluid, without burning out. Could it be wired directly to the battery pack (14.4v) with a resistor to control the voltage? I would include a manual switch in the circuit to eliminate the battery drain when not in use. 

Thanks. I appreciate your patience. Owen


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB motors work on both the pulsed power and filtered DC. 

Most on board controllers work with pulsed power of some sort as mosfets have very little power loss when pulsed due to their less than .25 ohm resistance, whereas a transistor must give up a lot of heat when used on filtered DC. due to the power drop across the transistor, (ex. 1/2 amp times 12 volts gives 9 watts and that is a lot of heat when outdoors in the sun).


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Dan, I've been doing a lot of web searching and found a thread from earlier this year where you suggest using a 6v regulator (7806) to run a 5v smoke unit. My thought now is to wire the smoke unit to the battery pack (14.4v) via the 6v regulator with a manual switch in the line to prevent battery drain when smoke isn't being used. Also plan to use a heat sink as suggested in the thread. If I am missing something, please let me know. 

Many thanks to both you and George Schrever (along with various other helpful people) for your contributions to the hobby. Owen


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

OMCN, that will work and if the regulator only is used for the smoke unit, let the switch control the input to the 7806. 

Many manufacturers have dropped the LM in the part number, so search for 7806 regulator. 

I personally find 14 volts too low for most engines, something closer to 20 volts is better for me. My outdoor track power supply is set to 24 volts, indoor is 19 volts.


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

The Locolinc manual say's the input voltage can't exceed 18vdc for the receiver I have (KLR 105). Hopefully the 14.4v battery which is scheduled for delivery tomorrow will be adequate. Maybe it'll go slow enough theat my great-nephew and his friends will have a hard time getting the engine to leave the rails around the curves. 

I found a 6v regulator locally. It is an NTE962 and they said it is equivalent to the 7806. The maximum input voltage is 35 and it is rated for 1 amp. I hope what they said is correct. 

In order to try to avoid the need to install resistors in the lighting circuits (the current bulbs are 5v and the Locolinc board putsout the input voltage on these circuits), I bought some 24v LGB bulbs which the hobby shop said I could simply put in place of the 5v bulbs. I presume they'll be dimmer when run on the lower voltage. If they are too dim, I'll go back to the resistor idea. 

Thanks. Owen


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

24 volt bulbs on 14 volt batteries will be very dim. 

18 volt bulbs should work and give off a yellow light on 14 volts which is great for pre 70's engines, steam or diesel!!


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Our local train store doesn't have any 18v bulbs for the LGB bases. Does anyone know a source? If not, maybe I'll have to go back to the idea of resistors. 

My current problem is what connectors to use. I need 6 leads between the engine and tender, 4 between the tender and battery car and two leads between the battery and the rest of the wiring. These connections will need to survive frequent connection/disconnection. I bought some Molex crimp type connectors. They will work but am having some second thoughts about the suitability of these connectors for this kind of useage. I've tried web searches without anf real luck. Any thoughts about the best connectors and their source? Obviously, small is good and bigger not as good with respect to hiding them. Owen


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Owen..... Try Mike Kidman.... MLS handle... treeman... He should have them in stock. 

Email and phone... *[email protected] Phone
Home: 515 984-6946
*


----------



## omcn (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank you, Stan. I'll give him a try. Owen


----------

