# neophyte...big time



## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello to one and all...
A short model railroad history, or lack thereof, will hopefully excuse some of the dumb questions that will follow. I was big into Lionel trains from age 10 to 14...I'm now 70. No model rr'ing in between. However, retired after 36 years, as a locomotive engineer on the Rio Grande. There...that's the history. Now, I'm attempting to start up in 1:29 scale, but seem to continuously run into scale/size/proportion problems with structures/figures versus rolling stock. They seem to be too big, or too small, even though I know what the proper scale dimensions are. Is it my imagination? Structures 3X HO scale appear small to me. Is there a true 1:29 structure/kit available that I can purchase and use for future reference? I prefer kitbashing but need to be certain of the measurements. What is the general consensus for best structure material, core and/or exterior, for withstanding outside elements? More dumb questions to follow. Thanks to all who respond - appreciate your time.
Gary


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome aboard Gary.









As a new member, you might want to check out the *FAQ* (always available from the *Resources* section of the main blue menu bar at the top of every page). The answers to a number of questions as to how the site works and how to do stuff can be found here.

You may also wish to familiarize yourself with the *Forum Rules and Guidelines*, also always available as a sticky thread at the top of the *Public Forum*.

Again, welcome to the forums!!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary:

Welcome.

As far as I know there aren't many (any) buildings made in 1:29.

When I first entered the "Large Scale" part of the hobby back in 1980 1:22.5/24 (LGB) was the only scale available. As a result all of my buildings are POLA kits that were designed for that scale. I have since gone into 1:20.3 and 1:29. When I am running I don't mix RR scales, but the buildings are always the same. Since real life buildings, RR and others vary in size, the different scale trains don't clash that much in the background. I think, but don't know for sure because I haven't seen any 1:32 trains with Pola and other buildings that those buildings may look a little large for that scale. Others can and will chime in with their ideas. One thing about this site is that there are a lot of opinions out there and you will have to pick and choose among information you will get. Just remember that it is your railroad and what you like rules and what others think doesn't mean a whole lot. 

People and animals also come in many different sizes. When you are out in shops or shows and see figures, carry a ruler and see if the size is reasonable. Nancy and I worry less about scale and more about general appearance of the figure. In most cases the figure isn't standing on or near the train. The size of the door into a building is probably more important than the size of the train.

Again WELCOME. There are several Garden Railway clubs in Colorado and Utah. Join up with a local group and pick their brains. They usually have open houses, so visit garden railroads in your area and ask questions. If you are in the Denver area the Denver Garden Railway Society has a outdoor setup at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden. There are members out there running most weekends. That is a good place to start. They have buildings and several of the different scales are often running at the same time. Go out and see how the trains and buildings look.

Chuck


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Welcome to the Forum, This is a great place you will learn a lot here. just stay away from the wannabe reviewers that dont own the product they like to talk about.
All the info you could ever need is here.









Jethro


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There are no buildings or structures in 1:32 that I know of. Aristocraft makes buildings, but they are in something more like 1:24. On our layout, cast resin structures seem to hold us the best

If I were scratch building structures, I'd use Sintra, which is a rigid foam board. A lot of people seem to swear by it.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By GaryGJ on 29 Aug 2012 12:16 PM 
...
Now, I'm attempting to start up in 1:29 scale, ...
hi Gary, and welcome back to a wonderful hobby.
could i ask you a few questions?

1) what are you going to modeling as far as the trains themselves? standard (US) gauge? D&RGW or other narrow gauge?
2) what sort of outdoor area do you have to play with dimensionally? what could be your largest track radius?
3) interested in live steam? or are you talking about electric trains?
4) if electric, track power? ...or self-contained (battery powered) radio control?
5) what sort of climate zone are you in?

cheers...gary


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Welcome to MLS Gary. The folks here have been a major wealth of information and assistance to my efforts. Check out some of the other forums on structures and model making also that may help answer your questions. 

My dilemma is I chose to model both 1:20 and 1:29 so since I will be running both on the same track, [at different times], my structures need to visually split the difference so I'm choosing 1:24 for scratchbuilding buildings as a middle ground and I think 1:24 is easy math to work with and lots of model cars and trucks are available in 1:24. Since my RR will be rural most of my buildings will not be right up near the track making comparison a little less noticeable I hope. Designing things like bridges that will look believeable enough for both the ET&WNC to cross and my 1950's Southern trains to use is a bigger dilemma for me. 

Anyway, that's just what works for me and everyone here does their own thing to suit their particular interest. Best of luck choosing what you wish to model and welcome Aboard! 

Oh, by the way, what part of the country do your reside in currently?

Scott


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

to build my own buildings in 1:29, i use the height of 2 and a half inch for standard doors. all the other maesurements i make in relation to that.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Welcome, Gary, to this group. No questions are dumb, only some of the answer ! 1:29 is a compromise scale. The correct scale for standard gauge on #1 track is 1:32, which IS a little smaller than LGB, which was (more or less) one meter gauge on #1 track. 

While deciding on scale is not as important in Large Scale as in indoor stuff, some people find in a big bone of contention. I have a bunch of 1:32 die cast cars, I've build some 1:32 buildings. 

Garden Rwys magazine published plans in 1:29 if that's what you want.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary

While the following may or may not fit in with your specific scale (1:20.3 as opposed to 1;29) or era (???) the information on materials used and methods of construction for outdoors may be useful. The PDF documents are a compilation of posts (i.e. 2003 thru 2012) by MLS member Peter Bunce, feel free to download a copy if you like.









THE ‘BUILDINGS’ OF SYCAMORE CREEK Part 1 - Peter Bunce (PDF 11MB)[/b]


THE 'BUILDINGS' OF SYCAMORE CREEK Part 2 - Peter Bunce (PDF 2MB)[/b]


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I find it annoying that people and buildings produced for "G Scale" are way too big for 1:29. Also rather expensive. So I learned to make my own people from instructions I found right here at MLS. 

Hmm. Unfortunately, I don't see them in the Features section. 

I was shocked to find I could make people that looked like people. My grade in Art class was always, "Participates."


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I was shocked to find I could make people that looked like people. My grade in Art class was always, "Participates." 
Hey, that's more than a lot of kids do these days. One of the things I love about G "scale" is the ability to build/create virtually everything from scratch.


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for the welcome + info...will review
GaryGJ


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Jethro...thanks for the welcome! Yes, indeed...there is a ton of info here...will take me some time to review that which is relevant for me at this point.


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

lownote...thanks for the info...I have noted the durability of cast resin and will most certainly give "Sintra" a try.


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Chuck...appreciate the welcome and the extensive response. I understand, and will take into consideration, your review fo the different scale comparisons - will be quite helpful.

I am aware that model RR'ing is a lively hobby in Grand Junction where I reside...I can, and will, get a heads up on the "G" fella's locally. And, yes...must certainly visit the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden once again - do believe my only visit was in the late '60's or so, when it was just gearing up. As you describe it now...it is certain to be fun and a great motivator for me.


Thank you
Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

From Gary, to Gary...great moniker, eh? heh heh

Appreciate your response and, in response...

1 - standard (US) gauge
2 - Unfortunately, the eventual layout will be indoors as I can no longer tolerate excessive heat or sun, so...I will have my attached shop, 16x32, to utilize when I advertise, sell, and wave a fond farewell to my '65 Pontiac Tempest station wagon (it is totally GTO'ed). Problems with legs, hips, back, and intolerance to heat have finally brought my hotrodding days to a close. But, yay...so fortunate to have the space for pursuit of less strenuous hobby!
3 - electric - no steam
4 - will choose self contained
5 - Quite typical Western Colorado weather...90's summer; winter, light to moderate snow, temps down to zero.

best regards,
Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Scott...appreciate the welcome. Yes, I see that there is indeed a ton of info here plus, it is encouraging to know that knowledge/assistance is shared. As you can easily surmise...I'll certainly need some assistance.

Your information about using different scales, and dealing with the challenges, is quite revealing and useful to me. Placement and scale of structures is interesting and adds yet another dimension to consider.

Thanks for the encouragement - some days my motivator seems to be underwhelmed!

I am a Colorado native residing in Grand Junction. I have also lived in Tabernash, Denver, and Montrose. My Dad and I retired as loco engineers off the Rio Grande. His service was...UP, Cheyenne, WY, '24 - '36; RG, Denver, CO, '36 - '66. Mine was RG, Denver & Grand Junction, '63 - '99.

Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

thank you for the info - I will keep that number for reference and build accordingly,
Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks, Dick, for the welcome. Hmmmm...I just might fit in well here because...I always have some dumb answers close at hand!

Geez...no wonder all these different scales are so confusing to me...so many of them running on the same gauge track! But then...the structures really should match whatever scale the rolling stock is...right? I mean...I realize that distance from the rail and various types/styles/proto size of structures can allow compromise relative to the layout, but shouldn't all structures at least be based on the correct dimensions for the particular scale of the rolling stock? I don't want to be viewed as a nit-picker nor hard line perfectionist, which I am neither...just trying to establish a basis/benchmark for building structures. Another way to put it, Dick...if I'm doing 1:29 equipment, why would I buy any structure other than exact 1:29 scale? Why don't the manufacturers of 1:29 rolling stock manufacture true 1:29 structures? Is the 1:29 rolling stock truly 1:29 scale? Yeah, I know...so many questions, so little time.

Appreciate the heads up on the Garden Rwys 1:29 plans - will check on that.
Thanks again...
Gary


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary:

The Garden railroad at the CRM was build sometime after we moved for Lakewood, Co to northern Virginia in December of 1993.

Having an indoor layout will require your structures to be closer in scale to the trains than having them out doors. Outside most building can be place away from the track so the size isn't that noticeable. Indoors everything will be closer to the track and size will become a larger issue.

Here is a picture of my Silverton Station (POLA) sitting next to a 1:29 freight. The passenger in the station is 3 7/8" x 1 1/2".










Chuck

Here are a couple of pictures of my version of the Yampa Valley Mail. The diesel is an LGB White Pass & Yukon that was repainted and re lettered.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By GaryGJ on 31 Aug 2012 11:18 PM 
From Gary, to Gary...great moniker, eh? heh heh

Appreciate your response and, in response...

1 - standard (US) gauge
2 - Unfortunately, the eventual layout will be indoors as I can no longer tolerate excessive heat or sun, so...I will have my attached shop, 16x32, to utilize when I advertise, sell, and wave a fond farewell to my '65 Pontiac Tempest station wagon (it is totally GTO'ed). Problems with legs, hips, back, and intolerance to heat have finally brought my hotrodding days to a close. But, yay...so fortunate to have the space for pursuit of less strenuous hobby!
3 - electric - no steam
4 - will choose self contained
5 - Quite typical Western Colorado weather...90's summer; winter, light to moderate snow, temps down to zero.

best regards,
Gary

hi Gary (yes, indeed a fine name!)...

have to admit, most of my questions assumed you were going to be outdoors, but i certainly understand your reasoning. and believe me, you aren't the first to be puzzled by the single gauge available for garden railroading. historically, things started off simply enough. #1 gauge (45mm, ~1.75") representing narrow gauges (3' (US) or one meter(Euro)) was well suited for the rugged (for the scale) home garden settings needing to take tight curves and handle some unusually steep grades. the scale numbers worked out to...

#1 gauge track representing 3' gauge results in a scale of 1:20.3
#1 gauge track representing 1 meter gauge (assumed to be the basic LGB scale) results in a scale of 1:22.2 (usually rounded to 1:22.5)

but unlike the Euro meter gauge prototypes, with US narrow gauge equipment the choices are rather limited. only a fraction of US railroads were 3' gauge.  so garden railroaders got the idea of running scaled US standard gauge (56.5") outdoors. but first lets run some more numbers. using the well known HO scale, the absolute minimum radius is usually considered to be 18-22" radius with most mainlines set at 36-40". using those figures proportionally to a scale of 1:20.3 would result in minimum curves of 6.5 foot radius and requiring ~30 feet to turn 180° on the mainline (if you want to run 4-8-4 size locomotives). most backyards/ gardens don't have that sort of space.

on the other hand, companies like Aster were already using #1 gauge track to represent US standard gauge in 1:32 scale. in this scale #1 gauge track works out to be 56.7" in prototype size; one of the most accurate scaled gauges in all model railroading. at this scale full size mainline radius could be a more practical 9-10' and like with the narrow gauge garden railroaders, the 45mm track gauge (#1) was already defined and track was available. plus if you could stay with the smaller standard US prototypes, 4 or 6 coupled wheels up to perhaps even small mikes (2-8-2), operators with already larger radius narrow gauge infrastructures could even use their already existing layouts.

perception rather than calculation was perhaps the overriding factor in the emergence of the compromise scale of 1:29. garden railroads working in 1:20.3 scale were used to big stuff even though those freight cars as prototypes were relatively small compared to comparable standard gauge equipment. looking at the standard gauge scale already in use for #1 gauge track, 1:32 equipment just appeared too small to these operators not to mention buildings at the narrow gauge scale also seemed to dwarf 1:32 scale trains.

to be able to run both narrow gauge and standard gauge with compromises, albeit probably at different times, 1:29 scale (#2 scale equipment on #1 gauged trucks) was created.

so why choose a scale that's nearly 10% under-gauged for #1 gauge track?
the three most popular answers you will get...
1) it makes the standard gauge trains look about the same size as the narrow gauge trains (perception).
2) it makes the building infrastructure already in place for narrow gauge operation appear more in scale (perception).
3) we don't really care (perception?).

it's certainly an individual choice as to which route you'll take.
i only like to present the facts (ie: do the math).

and to put one more idea in your head... have to say if i were presented with a 16 x 32 foot indoor space, i would be thinking about 3-rail O gauge. certainly no shortage of available equipment, track, power systems (TMCC, DCS, DCC, traditional) to either go tinplate or scale or a lot of other choices in between. with many more modelers and operators in that scale, a bit more economical, too.

good luck...gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi, Torby...
Thanks for the info on manufacturing some RR figures. I think that is something that I could accomplish. I'll do some research and make an attempt.
Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello again, SteveC...

OhMyGosh! The "buildings" of Sycamore Creek PDF's are beautiful and so very, very instructive! What a goldmine for me! Can't thank you enough for your time and effort on my behalf.
Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Chuck n...

Structures in a more confined area would benefit from being more scale-correct with the equipment - yup, makes perfect sense. Thanks...

Ahhhhh...your RG photo's do the deja 'vu thing for me, plus your layout is so appealing! The "blizzard" shot is especially memory-rattling - I worked in the snow so much. Was a switchman for seven years; brakeman for three years; hostler/fireman/engineer for twenty-six years. The winter work was a challenge until I finally had the chance to get in the cab permanently. Even then, I stepped down to help the ground-pounders, yard and road, uncountable times. For example, the East Portal power switches were famous for freezing up during snowstorms - all the head-end crew would take turns attempting to thaw them out.

Thanks for the photo's...so very enjoyable.

Gary


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

"I am a Colorado native residing in Grand Junction. I have also lived in Tabernash, Denver, and Montrose. My Dad and I retired as loco engineers off the Rio Grande. His service was...UP, Cheyenne, WY, '24 - '36; RG, Denver, CO, '36 - '66. Mine was RG, Denver & Grand Junction, '63 - '99.

Gary"

Thanks for your current location information. I asked because large scale modelers in your area will likely reach out to get to know you once they know where you live. 

Your personal railroad experience will also be a major asset to others who may be modelling the RRs that you worked on.


Again, welcome to MLS forum. Glad you're here.

Scott


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GaryGJ on 01 Sep 2012 12:26 AM 

Why don't the manufacturers of 1:29 rolling stock manufacture true 1:29 structures? 


My opinion - simply because we arent there yet.. 
The 1/29 scale part of the hobby isnt very old..about 25 years old (began in 1988)
the reason we dont have 1/29 scale structures right now is simply because "no one has come out with them yet"..
But I think they will come.. people have been using the older 1/24 scale structures for a long time, so perhaps the manufacturers have felt
"the demand isnt there yet" for 1/29 structures..but the demand is growing..I think 1/29 scale structures will be introduced eventually,
since 1/29 scale has now become the "standard" for standard gauge modeling in Large scale.. but these things take time..25 years isnt a lot
of time for this hobby, when it comes to new products being introduced..

Is the 1:29 rolling stock truly 1:29 scale? Yeah, I know...so many questions, so little time.





yes, virtually all 1/29 scale locomotives and rolling stock are very accurate to 1/29 scale..
they are "scale models" in 1/29 scale in all dimensions, except for the distance between the wheels..(the track gauge)
which is slightly too narrow, and IMO not even noticeable..everything else is very accurate to 1/29 scale.

Scot


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 03 Sep 2012 08:51 AM 
Posted By GaryGJ on 01 Sep 2012 12:26 AM 
Is the 1:29 rolling stock truly 1:29 scale? Yeah, I know...so many questions, so little time.




yes, virtually all 1/29 scale locomotives and rolling stock are very accurate to 1/29 scale..
they are "scale models" in 1/29 scale in all dimensions, except for the distance between the wheels..(the track gauge)
which is slightly too narrow, and IMO not even noticeable..everything else is very accurate to 1/29 scale.

1:29 scale cars on #1 gauge track are ~10% under gauged.

OOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOO

one of these strings of O's is 10% smaller... not noticeable?

the out of scale appearance of 1:29 scale car bodies riding on #1 gauged trucks may not be apparent looking at a car on its own, but next to 1:32 scale locomotives it is extremely apparent.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By aopagary on 03 Sep 2012 10:18 AM 
Posted By Scottychaos on 03 Sep 2012 08:51 AM 
Posted By GaryGJ on 01 Sep 2012 12:26 AM 
Is the 1:29 rolling stock truly 1:29 scale? Yeah, I know...so many questions, so little time.




yes, virtually all 1/29 scale locomotives and rolling stock are very accurate to 1/29 scale..
they are "scale models" in 1/29 scale in all dimensions, except for the distance between the wheels..(the track gauge)
which is slightly too narrow, and IMO not even noticeable..everything else is very accurate to 1/29 scale.

1:29 scale cars on #1 gauge track are ~10% under gauged.

OOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOO

one of these strings of O's is 10% smaller... not noticeable?

the out of scale appearance of 1:29 scale car bodies riding on #1 gauged trucks may not be apparent looking at a car on its own, but next to 1:32 scale locomotives it is extremely apparent.




But I would suspect that most people who run 1:29 don't also own 1:32. I have several friends into garden railroading and only one of them has 1:32 in addition to 1:29, but they are not normally run on the same railroad. He uses his 1:32 inside and his 1:29 outside. Neither one of them look out of place in this case.

Bob


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Its actually 9%! 
but that's irrelevant..
(it should be 49.49mm if it was correct for 1/29 scale..it is actually 45mm..that's a decrease of 9.072%)

you also have to account for the hugely out of scale rail most of us use..(even those who model in the "correct" 1/32 scale! 
when you account for the rail size, the difference is even *less* noticeable..the rail size eats up much of the gap..
here is Marty's photo we have used before:










The wide gauge shows what properly scaled 1/29 scale track would look like..
the thinner gauge is the 45mm track we actually use..I stand by my "meh..barely noticeable" opinion,
especially when trains are running on it, and especially when there is no 1/32 to compare to..(which is how most 1/29 scale modelers run)

and the thread where I found the photo from the last time we used it:

yet another scale debate thread 

Scot


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Gary Welcome to MLS I live in GJ also so maybe we can get together. Sent you a private e-mail


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary:

Glad you liked the pictures, here are a couple more winter picts. When conditions are right, I really enjoy running in the white stuff. Something you won't have to deal with indoors!!




























Glad that a local MLSer has made his presence known. We always try to get newbees to say where they live. There is usually help nearby, that is ready and willing to offer some assistance.

Chuck


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi, Gary...

thank you so much for sharing your knowledge about the historical/current, gauge/scale subjects in a compact, yet completely understandable format. So well presented that I, yes me, easily grasped the facts, intentions and, dare I say...perceptions.

Oh sure...throw "O" scale into the mix (I just _know_ you're not a mean fella, but!) However, your opinion (again!) sure makes sense so, with this news I'll diligently research "O" scale, See what methinks then.

Gary, your time and effort expended on my behalf is greatly appreciated.

Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Posted By SRW on 02 Sep 2012 09:52 PM 

"I am a Colorado native residing in Grand Junction. I have also lived in Tabernash, Denver, and Montrose. My Dad and I retired as loco engineers off the Rio Grande. His service was...UP, Cheyenne, WY, '24 - '36; RG, Denver, CO, '36 - '66. Mine was RG, Denver & Grand Junction, '63 - '99.

Gary"

Thanks for your current location information. I asked because large scale modelers in your area will likely reach out to get to know you once they know where you live. 

Your personal railroad experience will also be a major asset to others who may be modelling the RRs that you worked on.


Again, welcome to MLS forum. Glad you're here.

Scott

Well, Scott...your prediction certainly didn't take long to materialize! A local large scale modeler has responded and offered all his contact info - just great, that is! Thanks to you.

My past RR experience, uh huh...I can't emphasize enough how amazed I am at how much I have forgotten! All 3 yards in Denver, plus 2 in GJ, and the mainlines GJ -Bond -Denver, GJ-Minturn, and all the rail therein...Knew them like the back of my hand. But now? Senior citizenry gets depressing some days!

Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Scot...

Thanks for your opinion about lack of 1:29 structures...I was wondering. Not a lot of time for this hobby...25 years...hmmm...now that I'm 70, I'll have to agree with you - the preceding 25 really went fast!

Appreciate knowing for sure that 1:29 loco's/cars are accurately scaled, except for gauge. 

Gary


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary:

More years ago than I wish to remember, I used to treat two of my passions, fly fishing and trains on the western slope. Nancy was part of a work related golf group. Once a year they would go up into the hills and play at Vail. I would go along and fish the Eagle River at Minturn and watch the trains go by. If I lived in Colorado now, I would miss the Tennessee pass trains.

I'm a retired geologist, many years ago I was working on the Gilman mining district, for those of you not familiar with Colorado it is (was) zinc mine just up hill from Minturn. A colleague and I started walking down the tracks (from Red Cliff) to collect some samples and a speeder with a track crew came by. Rather than tell us to get the HeXX off of their right of way, they put us on the speeder and took us to Beldon. That's the siding below the Gilman mine.

We got our samples, and they gave us a ride back up the canyon. Thank you RG!! That is one of my best memories of field work!!!!!

Chuck


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Certainly is refreshing to know that this "community" is so forthcoming and generous!

Ah, Chuck! Wow! What great operating photo's! That snowplow....just amazing to me! Thanks for sharing. 
Sure is motivation! Uh huh! Ayup!

Gary


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

Posted By Ron Senek on 03 Sep 2012 04:22 PM 
Hey Gary Welcome to MLS I live in GJ also so maybe we can get together. Sent you a private e-mail 
Thanks, Ron...responding now.

Gary


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck 
When we lived in Leadville 17 years we would sit up on Tennessee Pass and watch the trains switch out helpers. You would know in the winter when the trains were coming because the tunnel doors would rollup. We also spent time watching switching at the Leadville roundhouse and the trains heading up to Climax which was Colorado Southern.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron:

I've always liked Leadville, but I think that it is a better place to visit than stay. I like winter BUTTTT. I've heard that that summer might show up on the fourth of July, but don't blink.

Seriously, there is a great train ride from Leadville to the Climax Mine. I've never ridden the train, but I've seen the tracks high up on the cliff heading up grade to the mine. Looks like a neat ride.

Chuck


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck 
When I worked at the Climax mine in the winter after shift at midnight on full moon I would ski down the track to town 12 miles. Never have rode the train. It is just rumor about it snowing there or getting cold, banna belt if your polar bear! 
Ron


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron

I knew some of the Climax geologists, then they became Amax geologists, and then??? In my opinion that was a company that lost it's direction when the bean counters took over. I think that they got rid of the exploration geologists because they had 15 or 20 years of reserves. They didn't seem to worry about what would happen after 15 or 20 years.

All kidding aside Leadville is in a beautiful location.

Chuck

PS Maybe we should get back to Gary's thread. I hope that you can help him get started.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 03 Sep 2012 12:08 PM 
Its actually 9%! 
but that's irrelevant..
(it should be 49.49mm if it was correct for 1/29 scale..it is actually 45mm..that's a decrease of 9.072%)

you also have to account for the hugely out of scale rail most of us use..(even those who model in the "correct" 1/32 scale! 
when you account for the rail size, the difference is even *less* noticeable..the rail size eats up much of the gap..
here is Marty's photo we have used before:



The wide gauge shows what properly scaled 1/29 scale track would look like..
the thinner gauge is the 45mm track we actually use..I stand by my "meh..barely noticeable" opinion,
especially when trains are running on it, and especially when there is no 1/32 to compare to..(which is how most 1/29 scale modelers run)

and the thread where I found the photo from the last time we used it:

yet another scale debate thread 

Scot
i'm an engineer, so in my world 9 point anything = ~10 which is the figure i used.
( ~ = "about" if i need to clear that up)
to be fair, i usually call the error in 1:32 scale < 1% when it is in fact 0.34%.

the more interesting part about the 1:32 scale error in #1 gauge is that it is usually considered within the tolerance of the actual gauge.


there is no doubt that material strength doesn't scale with dimension, but i still think it is the goal of a modeler to present as correct a representation of a prototype as possible. as you point out in your examples, scale modelers have always lived with concessions to wheel and track profiles not to mention some of the thermodynamic concessions to modeling an actual live steamer, but scales have always been traditionally chosen as close to a gauge as practical for conversion. at a time long before digital calculators, i can see how 1:48 became a standard for O gauge track though it is considered one of the worst matches at ~6% error, but with 1:29 exactly the opposite happened. 


1:32 = 3/8" to the foot

1:29 = ~27/64" to the foot

i have said before that i really don't care if people choose to make the decision to go with 1:29 despite the math, but i just refuse to lie down and let the "don't care" crowd dictate what the manufacturers will offer. there will always be companies like Aster and Accucraft who strive to make the most accurate models possible and modelers who appreciate their efforts, so i will also continue to petition manufacturers to offer rolling stock in 1:32 scale. to me that's the only debate.

cheers...gary


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

AOPA Gary say; "i have said before that i really don't care if people choose to make the decision to go with 1:29 despite the math, but i just refuse to lie down and let the "don't care" crowd dictate what the manufacturers will offer." 

Noted for the record AOPA. 

For my pathetic, meager efforts with the available, nicely detailed engines and cars, 1:29 works just fine for me for now, I personally am willing to; "lie down" and accept "what the manufacturers will offer", because...well, "I don't care". And don't wish to build engines and cars to exacting scale. To each their own. It may be "Wrong" in exactitude, [word?], but I enjoy the size, heft, and feel of the 1:29 offerings so.... Your mileage may vary. 

OP said; 
"Unfortunately, the eventual layout will be indoors as I can no longer tolerate excessive heat or sun, so...I will have my attached shop, 16x32, to utilize when I advertise, sell, and wave a fond farewell to my '65 Pontiac Tempest station wagon (it is totally GTO'ed). Problems with legs, hips, back, and intolerance to heat have finally brought my hotrodding days to a close. But, yay...so fortunate to have the space for pursuit of less strenuous hobby!" 

That breaks my heart more than anything else you posted. I'd love to see photos of that Tempest. Sounds like a bitchin' boss car. My Great Uncle had an original '65 GTO, purple, white top, 4 bbl or 6 pack carb, [I forget which], red stripe tires [sigh] As a 6 year old kid, I was in love. I thought he had the coolest car ever made back in the day.


16'x32' will be a tight space for large scale but 'do-able'. My first layout was in a 11' x 20' basement room and was little more than a rectangular loop. Are you going to be able to utilize the entire space? 

Scott


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By SRW on 06 Sep 2012 11:18 PM 
AOPA Gary say; "i have said before that i really don't care if people choose to make the decision to go with 1:29 despite the math, but i just refuse to lie down and let the "don't care" crowd dictate what the manufacturers will offer." 

Noted for the record AOPA. 

For my pathetic, meager efforts with the available, nicely detailed engines and cars, 1:29 works just fine for me for now, I personally am willing to; "lie down" and accept "what the manufacturers will offer", because...well, "I don't care". And don't wish to build engines and cars to exacting scale. To each their own. It may be "Wrong" in exactitude, [word?], but I enjoy the size, heft, and feel of the 1:29 offerings so.... Your mileage may vary. 
...

Scott 
Scott, i'm pretty sure you missed the symbolism of my statement.

most of the sites i go to say nothing about the math. they say this and that are available leaving it up to the newcomer to decide. the newcomer sees what is available and i suppose unwittingly trusts the manufacturers to sell a scale that is correct for the gauge. i've been to the Aristo and USA Trains sites and while at least USA Trains is up front about the scale (with Aristo you actually have to open up a user manual for a particular item before 1:29 is even mentioned), neither site does anything to explain the reason for 1:29 scale.

i'm not saying i don't understand the narrow gauge/ standard gauge toy train operators who mix scales, but i will always try to present the facts (ie: "not lie down") in an attempt to educate those who might not be familiar with scale and gauge before they make a purchase they might later regret.

by the way, AOPA is merely a prefix i use from another interest, not really my name.
cheers...gary


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

It's cool. I just used "aopa" to distinguish you from the Gary who posted originally. 

I'm sure I probably read too much into your statement of; "i have said before that i really don't care if people choose to make the decision to go with 1:29 despite the math, but i just refuse to lie down and let the "don't care" crowd dictate what the manufacturers will offer." It kind of sounded like...well, never mind. 

I recently had this "scale" discussion with a slightly older and MUCH wiser large scale modeler and we discussed the available scales in large scale of narrow gauge and standard gauge models, and the compromise/discrepancies of 1:29 and 1:32 and his advice was to stay out of discussions of scales and run what you like on your gauge 1 track. One of these days I may finally learn to listen to older, wiser folks. 


Scott


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## GaryGJ (Feb 9, 2012)

OP said; 
"Unfortunately, the eventual layout will be indoors as I can no longer tolerate excessive heat or sun, so...I will have my attached shop, 16x32, to utilize when I advertise, sell, and wave a fond farewell to my '65 Pontiac Tempest station wagon (it is totally GTO'ed). Problems with legs, hips, back, and intolerance to heat have finally brought my hotrodding days to a close. But, yay...so fortunate to have the space for pursuit of less strenuous hobby!" 

That breaks my heart more than anything else you posted. I'd love to see photos of that Tempest. Sounds like a bitchin' boss car. My Great Uncle had an original '65 GTO, purple, white top, 4 bbl or 6 pack carb, [I forget which], red stripe tires [sigh] As a 6 year old kid, I was in love. I thought he had the coolest car ever made back in the day.

Scott...thanks for the sentiment, very considerate and much appreciated. However, I have no regrets where cars are concerned. But, I do resent (unrealistically, I know!) this aging process - my "can do" list becomes shorter every few months, after a lifetime of otherwise. Appears my last refuge will be RR modelling, of some sort. I still do guitar, piano, vocals, in a dance band, but can no longer play lead guitar. and can tell that the vocals are starting to deteriorate.

I'm attempting to include a photo of the Tempest - if it's here, I was successful. It is Iris Mist (lavender), a factory color...maybe the "purple" you are referring to. Has a '71 Pontiac 400, '70 Ram Air III heads, around 390 hp, 410 ftlbs of torque, Edelbrock 650 carb, 350 auto trans with B&M shift kit, 3:23 posi rearend, disc brakes front, aluminum radiator, Vintage Air heat and air, American 5-spokes. Interior is GTO buckets, console, floor shift, dash, grab bar. Not scary fast drag strip but, fun fast street car with no lack of challengers. Not perfect, but an excellent, dependable, comfortable driver...if one can handle 14 mpg. I've been a car nut since age 13 (1955!)...best described as pain/pleasure, love/hate, profit/loss...but overall, a fun run. Many cars, many great memories!

16'x32' will be a tight space for large scale but 'do-able'. My first layout was in a 11' x 20' basement room and was little more than a rectangular loop. Are you going to be able to utilize the entire space? 


Nope, not the entire space...bench's, music equipment, power tools, etc. I have considered starting out with just a trolley layout along the long wall, with false front structures...would give me a basis, anyway. Have seen photo's/video's of that type setup - very charming and intriguing.

Gary


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Gary, 
I hope you find a good home for that Tempest. It sounds like a really nice car. 

If you're having back and hip problems then building an elevated indoor layout should work great for you. Bending and stooping to work on trains and track outdoors does not sound like something you'd enjoy. An elevated outdoor layout could work for you but as you note you wouldn't be able to enjoy it when it was hot out so the garage should give you year 'round fun. Model railroading sounds like an excellent hobby for you to pursue and as my eyes age I appreciate working on the larger model details. 

Scott


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