# Are there Jpeg size limits for MS Office Programs?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

My wife and I are researching old Arkansas Railroads so today I went to Arkansas Geological Survey and found that they had a 1930 Topo map that shows most of the old Arkansas Railroads. As nice as the map is, it is large, bulky and not particularly easy to follow the tiny railroad lines on it. The map is (I think) 1:500,000 scale. It was the only size available.

I then took the map to a blueprint company to have them scan the image (about 32" x 39") into a jpeg file and asked them what their max resolution was. They said they could scan the image at 1200 DPI so I had them do it. The image came out at 104mb (20,772 x 23,433).

My intention was to have maximum resolution to work with and then to be able to view or print high resolution pictures of specific portions of the map as needed.

Now it seems that I can load the jpeg file into Microsoft Office (2003) Picture Manager but I cannot resize it or save it if I rotate it plus I am unable to crop it. About the maximum I can view it is around 12%. Paint will not load the image and suggests it is corrupted.

I am not sure if the blueprint company screwed up the scanning or if I have an image that is too large for my software to work with it.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry;

I have two suggestions.

Have them print the map, as I imagine that they have a large format printer. 

If they can handle the file, perhaps they could cut it into separate files that would be more manageable. For a state the size of Arkansas it could be cut into 9 separate map packages with some overlap. It might take more cuts.


This may not be suitable, but it might work.

Chuck 


PS As a geologist and someone who uses maps on the computer, my recommendation would would be to cut it into smaller pieces. Scanning across a large map isn't all that easy. It might cost you some money to make smaller jpegs , but in the long run it will be easier to manage.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Most likely the software can't handle the size. I know that I've run into problems with MS/Office Photo Editor at times too. Irfanview is a good image editor, another one is GIMP[/b] and it's also free.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an image that is too large for my software 
You have an image that is too large for Microsoft software. 

I suggest getting a copy of Adobe Photoshop Elements - it's less than $100 and has a plethora [great word that] of features. It will alow you to cut the image up into smaller, manageable-size pieces. 

And I agree with Chuck - get it printed as large as you can. You'll need a very large computer screen designed for graphics (1600x1200 for example) to see the detail on your computer. Your screen can't show 1200 dpi. (P.S. 300 dpi is normal for printed photos and is usually adequate.)


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 

I agree with Pete, get a copy of Photoshop Elements. It should be able to handle the file. Also, you might want to consider having it rescanned in TIFF format. While JPEG will handle large files, TIFF will probably yield better results when you want to crop, zoom, etc. For prints or posting you can crop to the image you want, re-size it and then save the results in a JPEG file. Just don't save the file to the original file name, or have a back up of it, just in case. Given JPEG compresses data in files (and re-compresses every time you save it to a new file which causes loss of detail), a TIFF file will be even larger than a JPEG. 

The capability of your computer may also be a factor. If you don't have a lot of free memory, the computer will have to constantly swap what is in the computer's memory onto disk in order for it to load another area you may want to look at. The number of and speed of the disks, the processor type(s) and the operating system will also be a factor. I had a 80mb Photoshop file that would take a good while to load and several seconds to render an update on a small computer. On a workstation (really big PC) it would load in a few seconds, and render almost immediately. 

Hope this helps. 

Mike


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Another thing to note:

Microsoft Word saves images in the original resolution in the .DOC file even though it is reduced to fit the page when displayed/printed. So, if you insert a photo that is HUGE the resulting .DOC file is accordingly also HUGE. If you reduce the resolution to something that fits the final product (paper or screen) that you want then the .DOC file will be correspondingly smaller too.

The only problem with this is that if you reduce the image to, say 1/2 page width and insert that file into the document and then later decide that you would prefer to have the image consume the whole page width, and just resize the image in the document in Word, the resulting image will not be as clear/sharp unless you delete the 1/2 page file inage and insert a new image that has been reduce from the original to a full page size. This means that you have to keep the original file (not a bad idea anyway) so you can create a new reduced file for insertion.

Of course, once the file is inserted, you can delete the reduced image from the computer so all you have is the original and the .DOC file (and of course, if you then want to insert the same reduced image in another document you have to re-create it... but how often do you use the same image in multiple documents?).


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you get it printed make sure that it is printed on a high quality paper with permanent ink. 


Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2011 07:01 PM 
of course I am moronic, so probably my comments are wrong. 

Greg 

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 18 Mar 2011 02:39 PM 
Hey, I have a GREAT idea!!! Why don't you simply ignore each other? Works for me, and has for over 10 years. 



From: Jerry McColgan ([email protected]) 
Sent: Fri 3/18/11 6:24 PM
To Greg Elmassian ([email protected])

Greg,

I would strongly recommend that we both follow Dwight's recommendation and avoid any further comments to or about each other on MLS. If you have anything to say to me you can send it by email.


Please avoid further references to or about me and if you elect to post on my topics do so in a way that in no way has anything to do with anything I may have said. I will do the same and ignore any of your topics.

*I will very specifically state that if I happen to post a comment or question about anything on MLS that I do not have any desire to hear your opinions and above all I do not wish to receive any advice, suggestions, instructions or anything else from you regarding how I should do anything.*

Jerry McColgan




From: Greg Elmassian ([email protected]) 
Sent: Fri 3/18/11 8:03 PM 
To 'Jerry McColgan' ([email protected]) 

Don’t email me any more… you are in my junk mail filter immediately after I send this.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Microsoft Word saves images in the original resolution in the .DOC file even though it is reduced to fit the page when displayed/printed. So, if you insert a photo that is HUGE the resulting .DOC file is accordingly also HUGE. 

Jerry, 

Welcome to the world of big graphic files. I bought a whole new computer to cope with the big files, etc. [And I had the same problems you have when the first building plan came by email!] 

P.S. The .DOC problem described above isd real, but if you go to 'format picture' there's an option to compress the picture (or all pictures) to the size displayed, which results in a much smaller file.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 09 Apr 2011 02:44 PM 
*Food Fight! Food Fight! 
*
_Come on guys - take it offline._ 


Hi Pete,

There is no food fight. I have told Greg very clearly in the past that I have lost any respect I had for him and that I do not wish to have anything to do with him. Further, the two of us were asked by Dwight to avoid each other on MLS. It is my desire to abide by Dwight's request.

I was simply reminding Greg of my past communication with him and I am also pointing out to everyone else that Greg is ignoring my request and that of Dwight. 

As you can tell, I cannot communicate with him via email because he has set his email to reject anything from me.

I think my post is very clear and it reflects both my desires and those of MLS.

I would like to point out that there is nothing vulgar, discourteous or disrespectful in my post.

If Greg was insulted, he insulted himself. If Greg is offended, he had to inject himself into my topic to be offended. 

I have nothing to apologize for.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

To clarify things this is a one shot situation. I have a single large image that I am concerned with (one map of Arkansas). The only reason I had it scanned was so that I could crop that image into multiple 8 1/2" x 11" pages at a high resolution enabling me to print out small sections of the railroads so we can trace them on the ground.

The original maps were only $5 each so I bought 3 of them and if I have to I can use a scissors to chop one or two into small enough sections so I can scan them myself but since I paid about $50 to have one document scanned and laminated I figure the blueprint company owes me something that I can work with. If they scanned the image at such a size or format that it is unusable to me I expect them to rescan it at a lower resolution that my computers can work with.

I have tried a few programs (now including Irfanview) but each has displayed some problems when I tried to use it. 

Once I get this image broken down to page size (at high resolution) I will not have any further need for any software to do it. I don't want to buy any software for a one time use.

My primary need was to determine if the image is OK or not so I could then determine what to do next. 

I will try some other freeware and I also have a program called Photo Explosion Deluxe that I have not tried yet. I have a few other PC's including one with very little on it and it is a 800MHz Dual-Core PIV with 4GB memory and a better graphics card so it may work.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry 

Do you have a Junior College near by? I imagine that for less than $50 you could find a student in the Computer Science department who could help you break it down into manageable files. Keep your master file at 1200 but then have the new files at 300 as someone suggested. If you have them burned on a DVD or CD you won't have to worry about modivying the master files.


Chuck


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 08 Apr 2011 06:31 PM 
My wife and I are researching old Arkansas Railroads so today I went to Arkansas Geological Survey and found that they had a 1930 Topo map that shows most of the old Arkansas Railroads. As nice as the map is, it is large, bulky and not particularly easy to follow the tiny railroad lines on it. The map is (I think) 1:500,000 scale. It was the only size available.

I then took the map to a blueprint company to have them scan the image (about 32" x 39") into a jpeg file and asked them what their max resolution was. They said they could scan the image at 1200 DPI so I had them do it. The image came out at 104mb (20,772 x 23,433).

My intention was to have maximum resolution to work with and then to be able to view or print high resolution pictures of specific portions of the map as needed.

Now it seems that I can load the jpeg file into Microsoft Office (2003) Picture Manager but I cannot resize it or save it if I rotate it plus I am unable to crop it. About the maximum I can view it is around 12%. Paint will not load the image and suggests it is corrupted.

I am not sure if the blueprint company screwed up the scanning or if I have an image that is too large for my software to work with it.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jerry




I regularly work with 90- to 100-Megabyte files using just Window's Paint program, so at first I was a bit confused by your problem... then I realized I work with BitMap files (".bmp"). Oops, you have a JPG.

To work with that file, it has to be loaded into memory and converted into 3 bytes per pixel so the program can manipulate it... so... take that 20,772 x 23,433 size and perform that multiply that the "x" in the middle means and you have 557,049,276-pixels or about 557-Megapixels.

Each Pixel takes 3 bytes to define the colors, so multiply by 3 to get 1,671,147,828-Bytes of data (1,672-MEGAbytes or 1.672-GIGAbytes) to be kept in a program's "scratch pad" to manipulate it, which usually means you need 2 to 3 times that much memory so you can hold a working copy for "undo" and a place to put the part that is being displayed, plus the place to put the new data created when you change a pixel someplace.

OUCH!

You need around 3.5- to 4-GIGAbytes of memory to "play" with the image file.

Doesn't all have to be RAM in the computer, as some of the file can be placed in a "Swap file" on the harddrive so that the program can move parts of the image into and out of the working memory. That file will need to be around twice the size of the total image size. So, a swap file of about 6- to 8-GIGAbytes is needed. Do you have that much empty drive space? Is your system set with an upper limit of less than that for the Swap file (called "Virtual Memory" in Win-7)? 

The time to swap the data around will be painfully long. You might actually be able to load the file and manipulate it, but it may seem like your PC has died while it is busy rendering the JPG data to a bitmap and then swapping it to the harddrive as you try to view a portion to crop it.

I worked with a 288-Megabyte BitMap file once but I had to strip Winders of all extraneous programs (like antivirus, sound utilities, etc. all that stuff that runs at startup and shows up as icons in the System Tray next to the Time display) so I had every byte of memory available and it took an hour to load the file so I could edit it, and edits took HOURS to perform... Draw a line across the screen (which was just a 10th of the image width and a 20th of the height) and I had to wait 2 minutes while the harddrive rattled like crazy before the mouse would even move again... Shift to the right to continue the line and it was another 5 minutes before I could move the mouse cursor to draw more. This was several years ago so it should be better on a newer PC, but... You are looking at something nearly 6 times bigger, so an "older" PC probably won't hack it. You need a multi-core processor (3 or 4 CPUs) and AT LEAST 6-Gigabytes of RAM and a harddrive with enough free space to hold the original file and the subsets you crop out of it.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Apr 2011 03:46 PM 

.....I have tried a few programs (now including Irfanview) but each has displayed some problems when I tried to use it...

Jerry
Jerry....if you get the huge photo to load in Irfanview...and that could take a LONG TIME...then you should have been able to just hit the Enter key and Irfanview would have resized the photo to full screen size...the whole image on your single screen. If it will display that, it means the whole photo did get loaded without choking Irfanview. Be advised, that with a 100M jpg, these two actions, loading the photo fully and displaying it fully, could take minutes...maybe an hour.

To make the smaller, more detailed "photos" is easy. You use the mouse to drag a cut box on the big image. The box should cover the area where you want the detailed piece. Then go to Edit/Cut - Selection and it cuts that piece of the image out. Next go to Image/Create New (Empty) Image...it pops up a window that lets you set the resolution in the new detailed image...and puts your cut image in there. You then save the new image to the disk...or print it...whatever.

If you need to keep records on the new image, you can click on Image/Information, the select IPTC, and enter the record you want....like what the detail is about, or it's lat/long, whatever. That information is saved INSIDE the jpeg so you'll never loose it.


I've never done this to a 100M file...but I have done it to 30M files...and it takes time. You're really pushing the program with a file that size.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry - I'd take the image back and have it scanned at a lower resolution - maybe 150 dpi or even 100 dpi. That will result in a much smaller image. Besides, if you're working with it on the computer screen, high dpi doesn't buy you much anyway (other than to make the file really large, as you've just discovered). Higher dpi's are primarily for things one wishes to print in high quality.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I'm not to sure this will help with your problem, but you might want to check out the JPEG2000 format it's one of the formats that the Library of Congress adopted in I believe 2005. Then see if the company that scanned your map and saved it to a JPEG file format, can also save it to the JPEG2000 format.

Library of Congress - View Maps
[*] Wavelet Compression Technology[/b]
[*] How to View - IrfanView w/JPEG2000 plugin[/b]
[/list] I downloaded & installed IrfanView with the JPEG2000 plug-in, and then down loaded the example JPEG2000 document from the American Memory web site listed above, I was able to open the file locally and select a portion of the image, then crop the selection and save it to a separate standalone JPEG file, which I could then print. Now the only question is can your hardware support it. Although, if you can get the scanned image of your map saved to the JPEG2000 format I think it'll work for you.

Hope this is of help to you.
SteveC


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I use GIMP, but I've never tried a file that big.

I think you want to leave the file alone and copy/paste pieces out. Then reduce those.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Apr 2011 03:57 PM 
I gave a good and helpful suggestion to the question. 

I did not expound on, nor provide any comments on any person.

Greg 



*Cyberstalking* is the use of the Internet or other electronic means to stalk or harass an individual, a group of individuals, or an organization. It may include false accusations, monitoring, making threats, identity theft, damage to data or equipment, the solicitation of minors for sex, or gathering information in order to harass. The definition of "harassment" must meet the criterion that a reasonable person, in possession of the same information, would regard it as sufficient to cause another reasonable person distress.[1]


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry

Do you have a CAD program, I am able to import jpeg's and resize at will and pick and choose the printed area sized as desired. Haven't tried such a large file but would be willing to give it a go.

Michael


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 11 Apr 2011 07:32 AM 
Cyberstalking
Of all the ridiculous things to say. (Mr Moderator - can we have some sanity back here please?) 

Deleted my armchair psychology. 

When one MLSer finds another MLSer offensive and wishes to have nothing to do with him and a Moderator of MLS requests both parties to avoid each other - that is sanity.

When a MLSer continues to force his presence on a fellow MLSer in full knowledge that to do so will be offensive to his fellow MLSer and in violation to the expressed desires of both that MLSer and the expressed wishes of a MLS Moderator - that is insanity.

There ARE laws that prohibit individuals from stalking and or harassing other internet users. I have notified the individual in question that I have no respect for him and I wish to have no contact with him and I want him to stay away from me on MLS.

If he continues to force his unwelcome presence into my topics I happen to have legal rights to react to his aggression (he is coming to/at me - not the other way around).

My legal rights against internet harassment supersede the opinions and actions of any individual and those of MLS. 

I consider myself to be being intentionally and maliciously harassed by the individual in question. If he seeks out my topics to post on them that suggests stalking. He can either back off and ignore me or I have a legal right to seek legal (civil and/or criminal) proceedings against him.

This has NOTHING to do with you. It has EVERYTHING to do with me and the individual in question.

Do NOT think that you can give yourself the right to determine what MY rights happen to be.

*He is fully aware of what he is doing. He is intentionally trying to provoke me into doing something that will enable him to claim that somehow he is the victim when the truth is that he is the aggressor.*

I will point out that this is MY topic.

I started this topic about MY PROBLEM with a map that I PURCHASED from ARKANSAS Geological Survey.

I had MY MAP scanned at MY EXPENSE at ARKANSAS Blueprint.

It is MY PROBLEM that MY MAP that I had scanned does not work on MY COMPUTERS and with MY SOFTWARE.

The individual in question does not have a map such as mine. He did not have such a map scanned at his expense. He is not having a problem with his software or with his computers.

Without specific and detailed knowledge of my map, my scanned file, my software and my computers what possible reason could that individual have to think that he should volunteer his unwelcome opinions in violation of my specific statement to him that I do not want anything from him?

*My topic had been posted barely 30 minutes before he jumped in with his unwelcome and uninvited comments.* 

Subsequent (invited and welcome) posts prove that whatever he might claim justified his post is bogus because many others provided the same information he did. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I appreciate the suggestions and I intend to follow up on them.

In the meantime the weather has been good so I got back to working on building the train shed for the caboose layout. 

As time allows I will get back to the scanned file and try to figure out the best (cheapest) way to manage it in small enough pieces to print out individual portions of it.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

In rummaging around on the Internet I ran across the following and constructed the following images for you, hope you find them of use.

Rand McNally Railroad Map c. 1897[/b]

U.S.G.S. Base-map 1930 (1:500,000)[/b]

As you can see by comparing the two the routes don't line up very well, but then there is 33 yrs. separating the two maps to begin with, and one is a commercial map and the other a U.S.G.S. Anyway I tried to line things up with the area covered using the Base Line/Range & Township lines established by the original U.S. Public Land Survey System, that are show on both maps. Again, learned something else I didn't know, what was to become the state of Arkansas was the first area that was survey in the land acquired in the Louisiana Purchase of 1803. Not many of the town/city names remained the same when comparing the two maps either. Well have fun with it.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 11 Apr 2011 12:54 PM 
Jerry

In rummaging around on the Internet I ran across the following and constructed the following images for you, hope you find them of use.

Rand McNally Railroad Map c. 1897[/b]

U.S.G.S. Base-map 1930 (1:500,000)[/b]

As you can see by comparing the two the routes don't line up very well, but then there is 33 yrs. separating the two maps to begin with, and one is a commercial map and the other a U.S.G.S. Anyway I tried to line things up with the area covered using the Base Line/Range & Township lines established by the original U.S. Public Land Survey System, that are show on both maps. Again, learned something else I didn't know, what was to become the state of Arkansas was the first area that was survey in the land acquired in the Louisiana Purchase of 1803. Not many of the town/city names remained the same when comparing the two maps either. Well have fun with it.










Hi Steve,

Those are great maps. Can you point me where I might find more of them (hopefully covering the entire State of Arkansas?

My wife Marilyn and I are not native to Arkansas but we love it here and we have found it absolutely fascinating to search out everything we can find about the railroads that built Arkansas. I would encourage everyone who has the time to look into the railroad history around wherever they may live.

Those who find toy trains prohibitively expensive might satisfy their thirst for "railroad stuff" as close as their local public library and Geological Survey. 

As I read the various books about Arkansas railroads all of a sudden names and places come alive as I discover where and why cities and towns were built and how they got their names - even street names.

The cost of GPS units is now low enough that just about everyone can afford them. A GPS combined with a geological (topographic) map can lead to a day's, week's, month's or year's adventures as one traces the long gone railroads of yesteryear.

Your mention of the Louisiana Purchase fits right in. The Louisiana State Park makes it possible to go to the monument from which everything began.

*"a party departed westward from the junction of the St. Francis River and the Mississippi to establish an east-west line, known as a baseline. The crossing of the two lines would be this initial point from which future surveys would originate. * 

*Both meridian and the baseline would later be extended, and land surveys for all or parts of the Louisiana Purchase states west of the Mississippi would subsequently be measured from this initial point in eastern Arkansas. From this point emanated the surveys for Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota and part of South Dakota."*

*[url]http://www.arkansasstateparks.com/louisianapurchase/*[/url]

When I bought the map from Arkansas Geological Survey they showed me a map they had that shows old stagecoach roads plus other roads, trails and even Indian trails. That's a problem I am discovering about history. The farther back I go the farther back I want to go.

My fear is that many libraries have been disposing huge quantities of old books to make room for new ones. No one knows how many irreplaceable books about old railroad histories are being discarded daily.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 11 Apr 2011 02:32 PM 
The cost of GPS units is now low enough that just about everyone can afford them. A GPS combined with a geological (topographic) map can lead to a day's, week's, month's or year's adventures as one traces the long gone railroads of yesteryear.

Jerry


I should add that geological maps are superior to topographic maps in one very important way - geological maps show locations of mines plus oil, gas and ore deposits.

As with many if not most states, Arkansas railroads were built primarily as a means of access to the natural resources available. People were secondary.

I was aware that there had been many mines but I had no idea how many or where they were located. There were lead, coal, manganese, zinc, bauxite, silica, antimony, diamond (yep!) and many others such as stone, pottery, glass-sand and then there were the oil and gas wells. Bear in mind, all of this was back in 1930. 

Another ore was Novaculite but I am having a hard time getting the link to work so you may have to go to

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/ 

and enter Novaculite.

"The mining of novaculite has been referred to as Arkansas’s oldest industry and remains economically important today. Prehistoric Native Americans fashioned weapons and tools from an abundant source of these silica-rich rocks. Tribes such as the Quapaw, Osage, Caddo, Tunica, Chickasaw, and Natchez mined novaculite."

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/e...tryID=2220

I have always focused my model railroads around lumber. Doesn't everyone? Apparently Arkansas was almost entirely covered with prime timber and Leslie, Arkansas had the largest stave plant in the world. This was back when wooden barrels were used for shipping EVERYTHING.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

One of the guys has graciously offered to modify my file for me. To do this I have uploaded the file here:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...Railroads/

It is file HPSC0062.jpg

As far as I can tell, the file can be downloaded but not viewed online.

If anyone else would like to play with a file this size you are welcome to download it and do whatever you think would be practical to do with it (other than you-know-who).

I was told by Arkansas Geological Survey that since I purchased the paper copy I could legally scan and reproduce it so anyone (except you-know-who) would be acting on my behalf in working with my scanned file with my permission.

Be aware that a file this size might do funny things with your computers (but rebooting seems to bring the computers back to normal).

I have every confidence in the MLSer who is doing this for me. I just thought others might like to play with the file. If I end up with a dozen variations that is OK too.

Now getting the 110MB file back to me might be a challenge as my email will not accept it.

Before anyone asks how I managed to put a 110MB file in my MLS Web Space I should save the Moderators some questions by mentioning that I am a Life Member so I have 1GB Web Space to play with.

Regards,

Jerry


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I downloaded your file, modified it so that you've got 72 pixels/in and the dimensions are 7500 x 6648, which dropped the file size down to 38,986 KB.

Maybe that will let you play around with the file on your computer until you get your other one, the files link is below.

Arkansas Topo HPSC0062 - Copy-03.jpg[/b]


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 11 Apr 2011 05:57 PM 
Jerry

I downloaded your file, modified it so that you've got 72 pixels/in and the dimensions are 7500 x 6648, which dropped the file size down to 38,986 KB.

Maybe that will let you play around with the file on your computer until you get your other one, the files link is below.

Arkansas Topo HPSC0062 - Copy-03.jpg[/b]



Hi Steve,

Your file helped a lot and perhaps I can use it to explain why the 1200 DPI was so important to me.

Marilyn and I are primarily focused on researching the Missouri and North Arkansas Railroad. Part of it ran from Heber Springs (where it is now under Greers Ferry Lake) and from there to Shirley and on to Leslie, Arkansas.

If I look at your image with Microsoft Office Picture Manager this is what I get at 100%:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...20Map1.jpg

If I look at the same area from the original file again with Microsoft Office Picture Manager this is what I get at 100%:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...20Map2.jpg

The difference is that at 1200 DPI it is possible to follow the railroad on the map but at the lower resolution it is not (or at least it is not easily).

This is not meant as any sort of criticism. It just shows the difference in results at different resolutions.

Perhaps the first step I need is to get a copy at full resolution but with the map rotated so that north is at the top (I cannot do this with my software).

I know little about the various image formats but it appears that Microsoft Office Picture Manager can work with Tiff, JPG, and Png but not with BMP and Paint suggests that color quality would be lost converting to BMP anyway.

PDF would seem to be a good choice but I do not have the software to work with it. I can view it but not modify it. 

All in all Tiff, JPG or Png (whatever that is) appear to be my best choices.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 11 Apr 2011 08:27 AM 
Jerry

Do you have a CAD program, I am able to import jpeg's and resize at will and pick and choose the printed area sized as desired. Haven't tried such a large file but would be willing to give it a go.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I very much appreciate your assistance.

This is the file you sent (for other's benefit):

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...-Model.pdf

I seem to be at the same situation as with Steve's image in that the resolution is not high enough to be able to follow the M&NA tracks. As I mentioned to Steve I would have the additional problem with working with a PDF file (not being able to modify it).

Here is the image at 100% with Adobe Reader:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...20Map4.jpg

If OK with you I think it would be most helpful if we can keep the resolution at 1200 DPI but section the master into quarters (with some overlap) to see at which level Microsoft Office Picture Manager can start to work with it.

I don't know if there would be any benefit to changing the format to Tiff or Png.

Many thanks,

Jerry


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## Joe Bartolini (Jan 2, 2008)

Many old maps of all types have been digitized and posted to the Internet. This work has primarily been done by state universities and federal agencies. A quick search for "historic Arkansas maps" on Google poped up the following site which may be of Interest. 

http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/arkansas/index.html


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## dazarooney (Apr 12, 2011)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By SteveC on 09 Apr 2011 04:00 AM 
Jerry

Most likely the software can't handle the size. I know that I've run into problems with MS/Office Photo Editor at times too. Irfanview is a good image editor, another one is GIMP[/b] and it's also free.

Yeah I use GIMP when images won't work in Microsoft applications, it does a good job.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Here a few additional things to look over (Resolution at 600 pixels).

First a PDF with your Lexington example. (link direct to PDF file)
Lexington PDF (232KB)[/b]

Next the MS/Word that the PDF was made from. (link is just to the directory)
MS/Word Lexington doc file (File: Jerrys-Lexington.doc size: 1.7MB)[/b]

What I see in GIMP viewing cropped Lexington area at 12.5% of original (link is just to the directory)
ScreenShot of GIMP (file: Jerry-Lexington-01.png size 2.5MB)[/b]

The raw JPEG file of the cropped Lexington area. (link is just to the directory)
Lexington area cropped from original (File: HPSC0062-JPEG2K-01-JPEG.jpg size: 25.5MB)[/b]


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Don sent this 11mb section of the original map at full resolution which he was able to email to me:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...Railroads/


ArkansasRRMapLeslieHuberSpings.jpg 


which comes out as this in Microsoft Office Picture Manager:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...Railroads/

Arkansas%20Map5.jpg


Thanks Don.



This is a perfect size for me. It works very well with Microsoft Office Picture Manager and has full resolution for viewing and printing.

I guess the trick now is to find the largest size image (at 1200 DPI) that Microsoft Office Picture Manager can work with. The alternative would be to chop the original into 11mb pieces and work with those.

One factor I had not considered is that my desktops have much more memory (and faster processors) than my laptops do and it will be the laptops that we will be taking with us as we venture tracing the railroads.

Still, if I can get large images (perhaps 30mb quarters of the original 110mb) to work with the desktops I should then be able to use Microsoft Office Picture Manager to cut them down myself as needed to work with the laptops.

I had no idea what I was getting into when I had that 110mb original made. Actually I was very lucky in that the guy that scanned the original was not sure if the image was going to fit on the CD he made for me. He thought the original was going to be over 600mb.

Wouldn't that have been fun?

At least now i know I was right in getting the original scanned at 1200 DPI so I did something right.

Coming here and asking you fellows for help was the 2nd smart thing I did - and I DO appreciate your assistance even if I have not gotten to what everyone suggested.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Joe Bartolini on 12 Apr 2011 02:48 AM 
Many old maps of all types have been digitized and posted to the Internet. This work has primarily been done by state universities and federal agencies. A quick search for "historic Arkansas maps" on Google poped up the following site which may be of Interest. 

http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/arkansas/index.html 
Hi Joe,

I don't know what is happening but I went to your link and found what looked like just what I wanted but I am unable to download or view any of the maps.

I went to another computer but it is having the same problem.

Jerry


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## dtetreault (Jan 23, 2008)

Jerry,
Would a tiled 15 page hi resolution PDF help? See link below.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25704264/map.pdf

Dennis


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This is weird.

I downloaded and installed GIMP and have been working with it all morning on a couple of computers (PIV-HT 3.20Mhz with 2.5 - 3.0 gb memory). On several occasions the computers locked up and had to be rebooted.

While GIMP accepted the 104mb Jpeg file (and converted it from HP Designjet T2300eMFP white paper format to sRGB Jpg), once I rotated the image (to put north up) GMIP was unable to save the file. I suspect the file size jumped to around 500mb in the sRGB.jpg format.

On the other computer I used GIMP to export the jpg file to tiff and the file size jumped from 104mb to 1.81gb!

Then I tried halving the jpeg file into north and south sections.

The north section went from 107,448kb (full map) to 242,073lkb (half map) and the south section went to 237,826kb (half map). In effect the image size more than quadrupled when the image area was cut in half.

I can get the files into Microsoft Office Picture Manager (at least north is up) but the images are so large the program is incredibly slow so more cropping is needed.

Jerry


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 
your full-size scan is a work of art! 
but its almost *too* good!  
the file contains a LOT of data you simply dont need.. 

Here is a cropped section of the original map: 









Notice all those little white speckles in the tan/beige area of the map..those are in the actual paper of the map! 
and show up simply because its such a crisp and clear scan of the original map.. 
but that is all data you simply dont need..all its doing is making all the individual pixels really different from each other, 
resulting in much larger file size than you need.. 

I selected all that tan/beige area in photoshop, deleted it, and replaced it with a solid color.. 
then boosted up the contrast a bit, some "medium" jpeg compression..and the result: 










Now having ALL those tan\beige pixels identical to each other really lets jpeg compression do its job.. 
here is the resulting full map: 

http://scotlawrence.smugmug.com/photos/1249679566_Eu3oh-O.jpg 

(sorry..Smugmug gave it a new name..but you can download it and re-name it) 
It went from 11,000K to 3,000K, (a 70% reduction) with no loss of "meaningful" information. 

Scot


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

In the following link you'll find four JPEG files that divide the map in quadrants (a=Northwest, b=Northeast, c=Southwest, & d=Southeast). They are all around 15-16 MB in size, try downloading one and see if it will serve you need.

Jerry's Map[/b]

The map is divided north-south using the PLSS Base-Line that is located just north of Helena, the map is divided east-west using the division line between Range 9W & 10W, which is also approximately 92°W longitude.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 12 Apr 2011 01:33 PM 
Jerry, 
your full-size scan is a work of art! 
but its almost *too* good!  
the file contains a LOT of data you simply dont need.. 

I selected all that tan/beige area in photoshop,


Scot 


Hi Scot,

You are right and your resulting image is great but I don't have photoshop.









This is such a rare situation that I would not want to spend any money on software.

The other factor is that I don't know enough about digital images to know what I am doing.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 12 Apr 2011 01:54 PM 
Jerry

In the following link you'll find four JPEG files that divide the map in quadrants (a=Northwest, b=Northeast, c=Southwest, & d=Southeast). They are all around 15-16 MB in size, try downloading one and see if it will serve you need.

Jerry's Map[/b]

The map is divided north-south using the PLSS Base-Line that is located just north of Helena, the map is divided east-west using the division line between Range 9W & 10W, which is also approximately 92°W longitude.


Hi Steve,

NOW you tell me.
















I spent most of the day playing with GIMP and ended up with quartering the state and then quartering the quarters. It worked and the images are nice but even the 1/16th sections are around 50mb each and all the files combined total over 2gb. 

Still, that is not a problem for the desktops in that I copied the files to a SDHC 4gb chip and I can use the chip to add the files to any of the computers.

On the other hand your files work great and with their much smaller size they will be perfect for the laptops which is what we will be actually using in the field. The laptops would take forever with the 50mb images.

I'm not sure what it is but it seems that the original jpeg file expands greatly when it is converted/edited in GIMP. It seems to me that the colors may be separate from the base file in the original (possibly to enhance the printing process).

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

If anyone is curious, this is what I ended up with:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...asNWNE.jpg

If you want to take the time (unlike the original file) this one will actually download from the link.

I keep coming back to this section of Arkansas because this is in the mountains where we have had so much trouble in the past trying to figure out where the doggone M&NA tracks had been.

Thanks to everyone we now have a lot more options.

I bought a used MS Streets & Trips with a GPS so that it, combined with these maps will make our future scouting trips a lot more interesting.

This leaves me 3 days to build the caboose layout train shed before our club meeting Saturday and also 3 days to get started on our income taxes. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By dtetreault on 12 Apr 2011 12:20 PM 
Jerry,
Would a tiled 15 page hi resolution PDF help? See link below.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25704264/map.pdf

Dennis 



Hi Dennis,

Thank you. That is fantastic!

After I retired I flew for CAP and then for Arkansas Forestry Commission (Fire Spotter). It would have been fantastic to have had those files then in the cramped cockpits.

Now they will be the perfect size to print out and carry with us.

At first I thought the resolution was not high enough at 100% but then I discovered I could magnify the images 800% without loss of resolution (I guess that was what you meant by hi resolution).

I really do appreciate everyone's efforts. We won't know exactly which copies will work out best until we hit the road after my wife retires. They will just be day trips but there is a lot of Arkansas railroad history that is easily within a day's drive.

If anyone else is working on anything please send it as well. This is the sort of information that we will be using in many different ways and we will be sharing it with other railroad buffs here in Arkansas. I know they will be appreciative as well.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

There have been several people who have offered suggestions and even if I have not acknowledged everyone I do appreciate what everyone has offered.

There are some things that I just do differently and one is regarding resolution. My eyes are not that great anymore and I don't want to wear glasses just to read a monitor so I tend to use low screen resolutions of 640 x 480 up to 1024 x 768. Also most of my monitors are either old or inexpensive but except for the laptops they are P IV HT dual core with 3.00 or 3.20 processors (thanks to Arkansas State Surplus).

This may seem strange that I want 1200 DPI with low resolution monitors but it works out very well for me. 1200 DPI looks great at either 640 x 480 or 1024 x 768. Lower resolution is not nearly as good regardless of the monitor quality or image size.

What makes the difference is that I am not looking at or for the "big picture" but instead I am looking for where the RR tracks ran around a particular hill, valley, creek, town or whatever. The unfortunate part is that when asked most local people don't even know that a railroad ever ran through their town much less have the slightest idea where it ran.

Along with this Geological Survey Map I also have the highest resolution standard topo maps for the entire state (from my hunting and flying days) plus an aviation GPS with topo software. The problem with these is that most of the old tracks were long gone before they were produced. 

In many instances the new map will simply confirm what the other data shows but it is the tiny curves between mountains, hills, creeks and towns that have been the real pain to follow. 

It is hard to explain but just discovering a long forgotten hidden rail in the dirt or grass can be an exciting discovery. 

When the tracks on the maps are matched with stories in railroad books about old railroads in Arkansas it is sort of like reliving history even though it happened long before we were born and we are not from Arkansas (I am from the Chicago area and Marilyn is from England).

For anyone who has not tried it, I would suggest that you might want to look into your own railroad history as (for me anyway) it adds a lot to the enjoyment of a model railroad.

Jerry


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## Joe Bartolini (Jan 2, 2008)

Able to view the maps now. @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 11 Apr 2011 02:32 PM 
Posted By SteveC on 11 Apr 2011 12:54 PM 
Jerry

In rummaging around on the Internet I ran across the following and constructed the following images for you, hope you find them of use.

Rand McNally Railroad Map c. 1897[/b]

U.S.G.S. Base-map 1930 (1:500,000)[/b]

As you can see by comparing the two the routes don't line up very well, but then there is 33 yrs. separating the two maps to begin with, and one is a commercial map and the other a U.S.G.S. Anyway I tried to line things up with the area covered using the Base Line/Range & Township lines established by the original U.S. Public Land Survey System, that are show on both maps. Again, learned something else I didn't know, what was to become the state of Arkansas was the first area that was survey in the land acquired in the Louisiana Purchase of 1803. Not many of the town/city names remained the same when comparing the two maps either. Well have fun with it.










Hi Steve,

Those are great maps. Can you point me where I might find more of them (hopefully covering the entire State of Arkansas?

My wife Marilyn and I are not native to Arkansas but we love it here and we have found it absolutely fascinating to search out everything we can find about the railroads that built Arkansas. I would encourage everyone who has the time to look into the railroad history around wherever they may live.

Those who find toy trains prohibitively expensive might satisfy their thirst for "railroad stuff" as close as their local public library and Geological Survey. 

As I read the various books about Arkansas railroads all of a sudden names and places come alive as I discover where and why cities and towns were built and how they got their names - even street names.

The cost of GPS units is now low enough that just about everyone can afford them. A GPS combined with a geological (topographic) map can lead to a day's, week's, month's or year's adventures as one traces the long gone railroads of yesteryear.

Your mention of the Louisiana Purchase fits right in. The Louisiana State Park makes it possible to go to the monument from which everything began.

*"a party departed westward from the junction of the St. Francis River and the Mississippi to establish an east-west line, known as a baseline. The crossing of the two lines would be this initial point from which future surveys would originate. * 

*Both meridian and the baseline would later be extended, and land surveys for all or parts of the Louisiana Purchase states west of the Mississippi would subsequently be measured from this initial point in eastern Arkansas. From this point emanated the surveys for Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota and part of South Dakota."*

*[url]http://www.arkansasstateparks.com/louisianapurchase/*[/url]

When I bought the map from Arkansas Geological Survey they showed me a map they had that shows old stagecoach roads plus other roads, trails and even Indian trails. That's a problem I am discovering about history. The farther back I go the farther back I want to go.

My fear is that many libraries have been disposing huge quantities of old books to make room for new ones. No one knows how many irreplaceable books about old railroad histories are being discarded daily.

Regards,

Jerry
Jerry

I must apologize, I totally missed the above reply, sorry about that.









Anyway, in answer to your questions.
[*] The map excerpt pointed to by the first link was created from a map located by using the search function of the American Memory[/b] web site of the library of Congress.
[*] The map excerpt pointed to by the second link, was constructed using the same web site that Joe Bartolini pointed you to in his reply of 12 Apr 2011 02:48 AM, namely the University of Alabama's map collection. The map that I used can be found at this link[/b] just scroll way down until you reach the U.S.G.S. Base-map c. 1930 (i.e. sixth listing from the bottom of the page).

In answer to a question you asked after Joe posted his reply, and I'm not sure that it was ever answered. There is no provision on the University of Alabama map web site to download any image files.

Although, I believe this is the same site that I came across a map for Ron Simpson. When he was doing his research on the fictional town of "Cicely, Alaska" of Northern Exposure television series fame, which was partially shot on location at Roslyn, Washington. Additionally, the Roslyn location tied in nicely with Ron's interest in the Northern Pacific Railroad and its subsidiary Northern Pacific Coal Company that mined the extensive coal fields around Roslyn and Cle Elum, Washington. The map I located was of the coal mine tunnels and adits of the Roslyn and Cle Elum area, which in turn helped Ron in nailing down physical locations. Anyway, I believe he purchased a copy of the map, so if you find a map while you can't download a copy of it you may be able to purchase one, if you can't find it someplace else.
[/list]


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

I selected all that tan/beige area in photoshop, deleted it, and replaced it with a solid color.. Scot

Nice technique, I learned something new, thank you


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