# How long can you run a loco?



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I had a pleasant afternoon today, running two trains at once.

1 - My USAT 70MAC (NCE 808 board) with beautiful audio from its Phoenix sound card. Great to sit on the patio, a simple 7-car train fading out of hearing range as the train heads around the side of the house, across the front, snakes around the bushes and head back to the backyard, with its 50-ft. flower bed (the peonies are gone now but there are some roses and lots of day lilies and plenty of greenery to muffle the 70MAC much of the way). Then around again for another four-minute round trip.

2 - An A/C RDC-1 (NCE 408 board), no audio. (The RDC-3 carries the sound card for both, but today it seemed to be waiting for me to Swiffer the track again.)

Total running time for both trains - four hours, although the RDC did have a few breaks. I'm guessing each round trip is about 300 ft. About four minutes per round trip.

60/4 min.=15 trips/hr. x 4 hr. = 60 trips x 300 ft. per trip = 18,000 ft.

Both engines performed beautifully until the end of the fourth hour, when the 70MAC stalled halfway up a long incline. I had to give it some help from the giant hand. Next time around, same thing. After that it was obvious that it was done for the day.

All this to ask my question. What's a reasonable length of time to run a locomotive? I presume the 70MAC overheated, although I didn't handle it. The yard is largely flat, so it was able to shove the seven cars into a pair of stub tracks without extra help.

Was I expecting too much? Was I risking too much? I've seen store layouts that run all day, but they're usually flat. My track is either going up or going down.

What do you think?

JackM


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I can get ~4 hours of intermittant running (trains sit as much as they run) before I need to clean the wheels and track. So I schedule open houses from 1:00 - 5:00 PM. (Why fight it?)

Once the sun goes down and the dew point drops, fergitaboutit.

BTW, at what time of the day did you begin to encounter problems?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I suspect you are right about overheating but I think it really depends on what you are running including type of loco, load being pulled, level or inclined track, temperature etc.

I think it was Bob Grosh who (years ago) accidentally left an LGB train running for 2 weeks and found it running fine when he got home. Knowing Bob, it was probably a small LGB set as Bob could not lift much weight.

I think your suspicions are on the right track.

With a reasonable load, reasonable conditions and reasonable weather you can probably run as long as you like.

Then too, these are mechanical/electrical toys so occasional problems are inevitable.

Perhaps some sort of cooling (fan or venting) might help if your problem is electrical overheating.

A friend puts thousands of hours (really) on his trains but he has had one or two large diesels that quickly overheated. I think it was the Revolutions that overheated on hot days. He could remove the Revolution and the loco quit overheating.

Jerry


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

It was about noon to 4 PM, full sunshine, low 80s. Mostly inclined track, small fan inside possibly could be aimed better. Reasonable load being pulled, but then I wasn't doing the pulling. Four hours, I'd probably be a little cranky too.

JackM


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

A lot of decoders use pulse width modulation to control motor speed, its usualy adjustable on the better decoders. If its not set right, the motor can get hot, sometimes very fast. I have left my LGB that runs on straight battery, no decoder at all, just an on/off switch, running for 5-6 hours straight and the motor block is not even warm. But I am only pulling 3-5 cars, however the uphill climb thru an "S" curve does work them a bit, even with that load. Mike


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It's amazing how hard a pull those locomotives have. My MTH passenger cars mostly have plunger electrical pickups(some I put Gary Raymond ball bearing pickups on) but it's still quite a drag with 7 cars, but my Challenger runs for hours with them. Just give a tug on your consist and think that just one or two motors is pulling that! My runs tend to be an hour or more.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

JackM said:


> It was about noon to 4 PM, full sunshine, low 80s. Mostly inclined track, small fan inside possibly could be aimed better. Reasonable load being pulled, but then I wasn't doing the pulling. Four hours, I'd probably be a little cranky too.
> 
> JackM


I don't believe it is overheating just as I don't belive mine are. But this is easy enough to check.

You say that it happened after about 4 hours. Without touching either the track or the wheels, run the train the next day. Do you still get about 4 hours or some greatly reduced time before this manifests itself? If it is caused by over heating, you should get about the same run time before it over heats again.

If it is a track/wheel/pick-up issue, the run time should be greatly reduced because you are pretty much just resuming where you left off.


I do have a theory as to why this occurs based on my 19 years of observation and the aging of my own railroad.

In the words of Greg Lake, "_*Can you live on a knife edge?"*_ I say maybe for ~4 hours?


But a couple more questions before I get into it:

What kind of track are you using (I thinking brass),

How long has the track been in place? (I'm thinking several years or lots of use.)

How do you CLEAN your track? (I'm thinking some abrasive such as a drywall sander.)

How do you clean your wheels?

Thanks


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Answers to Todd's questions:

Sunset Valley 250 SS
Been sittin' there since 2011
Never cleaned it with anything abrasive.Cleaned it three times yesterday morning with wet Swiffer (ballast is fresh and hard rain tossed it up a bit)
Wheels are Bachman steel, never clean 'em

Won't have time to run the comparable four hour marathon for at least a few days.

The good news is - having just run it once around - today's just as nice as yesterday only maybe 6-7 degrees warmer - the 70MAC ran beeeuuutifully, pulling the same group. I expect it just got a bit peeked yesterday. Heck, I had not one but two Negra Modelo's** in the time it couldn't find a water tower anywhere!

JackM

** An excellent Mexican beer. My brother introduced me to it when he and the wife lived down there.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

7 cars is far from too many for a 70Mac..


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Art follows life. Right?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

As reported, your set-up doesn't fit the theory, but that doesn't mean the theory is incorrect.

I use an abrasive cleaner (drywall sander) and over the years the tops of the rails have lost their "domes" becoming totally flat. I noticed this the other day when replacing a section.

As the train runs down the track, the wheels are free to rock and roll a bit along the track dome, as long as the dome exists. Because the wheels move about relative the track, the electricity has a larger area for contact and/or the contact patch spreads around the tires more.

But when the top of the rail is abraded over time, the dome becomes a flat surface. This creates a sharp "edge" where the flat meets the existing curvature of the rail head. The wheels basically "lock" into this area and the "edge" becomes the point of contact. This is especially prevelent in some areas due to track conditions where the wheels may "settle in" to the exact same spot each time. (Maybe on a grade?) 

Essentially, the wheels are "living on a knife edge" and the current transfer through this very small edge burns a groove into the tires through "mini-arcing" while "carbonizing" the point of contact requireing more frequent cleaning. I see this all the time when I clean wheels and have taken to using an X-acto as a lathe to remove/reduce the groove. This is worse with some makes than others due to metalury and plating of the wheels. A/Cs seem to be worse than USA. I don't run any B'Mann.

Of course cleaning the track and tires solve the symptoms, temporarily, but not the actual problem. In fact, abrasive cleaning the track just creates a new "edge" and I look at track where the top shines like the sun, but the trains still run like crap because that's not where the tires ride.

I think that I may try to come up with a "track profiler" to cut some crown back into the flattened rail heads.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I run battery, so the track conductivity part of the equation doesn't apply to me. Having said that, I'll run for 8 hours straight at my open days with no hint of anything going askew. Same for operating sessions on my dad's railroad. His grades are much more aggressive than mine (5%). 

Having said that, I do have one locomotive whose motor would get hot after just a few hours of operation. I replaced the motor and that problem went away. Alas, the replacement motor died, so I put another motor in (same model motor as the stock motor) and the problem returned. I just replaced it again with a higher-end motor, but I haven't had a chance to run it for long periods of time in the garden. I'm likely going to wait to do so until I upgrade the control system. 

Later,

K


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

JackM said:


> Heck, I had not one but two Negra Modelo's** in the time it couldn't find a water tower anywhere!
> 
> JackM
> 
> ** An excellent Mexican beer. My brother introduced me to it when he and the wife lived down there.



Jack- Are you sure it was only two Modelo's? 


-Kevin.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

dieseldude said:


> Jack- Are you sure it was only two Modelo's?
> 
> 
> -Kevin.



Maybe they were just XXX-Large...


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

D-Dude: I _think_ I'm sure.... Regards to the other half.

Todd: Now yer talkin'!!! That's a manly size brew ya got there.

Seriously, do you make your own figures? Those two guys are the most real I've ever seen! Maybe it's because I identify with the bald guys more each day.

JackM


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## sounds good (Apr 12, 2016)

I run with DCC the whole day long and no motor is warming up. I've a 2,5 % grad with a balloon track at each end. All is working fine. I'm using DCC decoders from Zimo where I have 5 different possibities to adjust the motor parameters if needing. The powercaps inclouding will give me 1-3 feet autonomy without power from the tracks. All my decoders are sound inclouding. Take a look to my OneDrive what I'm doing myself for Sound Artwork on Zimo decoders. 
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgrBPm3FnQf780k1kHn4BaSDcWzT

sounds good


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I've accidentally left an LGB Stainz running all night. I went out about 3:00 in the afternoon with the kids and was puttering around in the garden when the wife called us for dinner. Went in, got distracted by something, and just forgot the loco was out there. Next morning, about 10:00 I remembered and looked out the back window--it was still going.

Of course, that's on my very flat track, with DCC, and it's an LGB loco.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

JackM said:


> D-Dude: I _think_ I'm sure.... Regards to the other half.
> 
> Todd: Now yer talkin'!!! That's a manly size brew ya got there.
> 
> ...




Sorry, didn't see this before. They are "Locsters." I think there are four different sets available. I got one of each set. Also, I modify them somewhat by cutting away what I don't want.

For example, the guy holding the ring was holding a tatoo gun. The guy on the can was shooting dice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hoppin-Hydros-set-of-6-2-5-inch-tall-Lil-Locksters-Figures-/331911478734?hash=item4d47773dce:g:u0YAAOSwGIRXYedY

http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Lil-Locsters-Series-3-LUCKY-Homies-RARE-PRE-PRODUCTION-Figure-Figurine-Diorama-/151968949978?hash=item23620e26da:m:mv19pwbtTx2hlNOHPj1shYA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-Lil-Locsters-Series-4-Tattoo-Tony-Artist-Homies-Figure-Figurine-2-/160994152893?hash=item257bffd1bd:g:XLAAAOxy9eVRSlVv


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I have a small loop of code 332 brass track running around a peach tree (Red Mountain). I've run Aristo critters with a track cleaning car for five or six hours powered by an MRC 6200. No problem, and if I run frequently (three or four times a week) I don't have to use the drywall sander (with Scotchbrite pad, NOT sandpaper). I've got a Kadee wheel cleaner and use it infrequently as needed.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The D808 should be able to run all day.

did the locomotive run later with no problems?

It does not have fancy heat sinking like some of the newer decoders.

Greg


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Greg -

I believe I ran it for a short time since then. With all the 90+ days we're had, I've hardly been outside of the house. Ninety degrees used to be a few days per year; we've had two or three times the normal number of 90+ days this summer, so I've had no incentive to move trains. (Actually, I dislike 80+ days.) If I could afford to live in San Francisco I'd move there in a heartbeat.

I think loco has a small fan in it. Possible, of course, that it has loosened it moorings and stopped spinning. Unfortunately, I recently bought an "older" car which is taking all my time to get it up to snuff.

I seem to have misunderstood the meaning of the word "retirement".

JackM


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

*"How long can you run a loco?"*

*OK, I know the original poster meant by this question, "How long can a model locomotive be expected to run continuously without diminished performance?" *

*However, there is another way to interpret this question. It is "How long can YOU (as in me, myself, and I) run a loco (as in model or prototype)?" My answer to the second interpretation is in regards to my own (younger) self and prototype industrial steam locomotives (no tender with a fairly well enclosed cab). When I helped out at the tourist railroad, I would say that my own limit was about ten hours. I was pretty well exhausted by the heat by then. *

*Keep in mind that the current "Hogg Law" for how long the crew can be kept on the locomotive is twelve hours, and it does extend back into the steam era. Before that law, some companies tried to keep a crew on the locomotive for as much as sixteen hours. All I can say is, "Boy, those guys were tough." Average temperature inside the cab on the locomotives I ran was about 120 degrees F.*

*Cheers,*
*David Meashey*


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

Me, I think the "how long can you run a loco" would depend on many differing factors, so each persons layout in all probability would get different run time lengths.

Track Powered vs battery would make a big difference, track work, depending on how bad or good it is would also have to be considered in the equation{at least I'd think so}.

Even if using track power, that would hinge on how well the power pack can perform depending on where it's located, inside, outside, added fans to keep it cool, since I've seen standard basic power packs overheat here in the Florida sun outdoors.

Between the sun beating down on it and the interior temperature from the electronics inside the pack, it can get quite hot and thermally shut down until it cools. 

Have had it happen a couple of times, so I sometimes, depending on how humid and hot it is, may set up a couple of 12 volt muffin fans running on a separate adapter to keep the power pack cooled down on those mid to high 90 degree days. And that ha worked very well for me in Central Florida.

So I really don't think there really is an actual formula for figuring out just how long a loco can run, because even there, it depends on style and type of loco and what's inside that makes it operate the way one operates their locomotives, trains and accessories.

Just my thoughts on this query.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a habit of trying to answer the original question.

The question was clear, he ran it, it stopped, it seems he assumed it was overheating, and he asked if he was expecting too much.

I suspect that it did not overheat, something else went wrong, but we don't have enough information to tell him why it stopped running.

The literal answer is that given that decoder, my experience tells me it should be good for continuous running, as long as there is some way to exhaust heat from the loco, i.e. not completely closed off.

The back of the decoder is an aluminum plate, but that heat needs to be conducted away somehow. If there is no air movement, and the plate is not in contact with something that can dissipate the heat, eventually heat can build up.










Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I still contend that on an aged garden railroad, in a garden setting with plants and moisture, and ballast and ..., its the track and wheels, and everyone in our club who runs continuously will tell you the same thing. 

We've discussed it at length and everyone seems to have this problem. Why would the trains decide to overheat after 4 hours when the sun drops and things cool down? They would have overheated long beore that when it was hot out.

Actually, my trains seem to run best in the heat..., But I don't.


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