# AC dash-9 and USAT Mac 70??



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I usually tell folks to run like company with like company to be safe.
But now I would like to mix a D-9 with a Mac 70 beings they both are BNSF Hert II paint.
any one run them together for lots of hours without any troubles??
just wondering.
I know Stan said sometning about the Revo can be programmed so they match, but how do you test or figure what "matched " is?


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

This issue alone is the reason I plan to equip each of my locomotives with their own decoder. Even loco's from the same manufacture will run slightly different. With a decoder in each you can adjust the speed on each locomotive within a mu'd group to run at matched speed. I also plan to battery packs in each locomotive as well.

I know Ted ran D-9 and SD70 in a group during initial checkout, I'm not sure how they ran together.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty: Your just going to have to bit the bullet and get the Revco if you want to run different types of locos together. The AC and USAT locos diffidently operate at different speeds. So you will need a system to speed match them such as the REVCO. Later RJD


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Marty, I have an A/C Dash-9 and USA GP-30's and 38-2. I ran all of them Halloween for the trick-or-treaters. The geep's had a 30 car train and the Dash-9 had a 10 car double stack on a parallel track. Both trains were controled by a single trackside Train Engineer. The geep's walked off and left the Dash-9 from the beginning and never looked back. I had to hold back on the controls to keep the geep's from running too fast. It would be nice if the trucks were interchangeable so the locos from A/C and USA could be ran together! 
Ron


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I have extra AC trucks 
I thought about changing them out. 

I bought a D-9, placed sound and Revo in it and all works well,,BUT, The motors won't come on. and yes they are switched on. 
I'm stumped on this problem now. 
motors just won't run????


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, you can speed match the locos with the Revo, but you need a controller per loco. After you do this, get the speeds close, and then consist them and run them about 6 feet apart, and correct bit by bit. 

The Revo is of course more difficult and less capable than other systems that have been speed matching for years, but you can get them approximately the same. 

Then under load, you will find the small differences even out pretty well, since the speeds of the loco will be much different under reasonable loads. 

I follow this procedure on my system. 

Now to the second question, why not take the motor output from the Revo, and feed it to a separate truck or motor just to check? 

Regards, Greg


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Marty, 
On the D-9, back to the basics. Pull the receiver and put the jumper plug back in. Do the motors run now? If yes, try another receiver. No, then look for something that came unplugged while you were doing the install. 

As to speed matching, the Revo has a "Speed Offset" setting for MUd locos. To match my S4s to my RS3s I run two locos 12" apart at about 40% throttle, my normal running speed. I adjust one of the speed offsets until they stay together. 
You can also use the Revo's Speed Curve settings to adjust the acceleration/deacceleration of a loco to match another loco. I haven't played with this much but between the two you should be able to match up the locos very closely. 
Not as eloquent, as pointed out by others but it does work.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,
Can't be much help since I run Airwire. I just did a dash 9 and speed matched it to one of my SD70's. Initially the SD70 was a bit faster than the Dash 9 but I don't think there was too much a difference that would prevent running them together. You really don't want them to be too perfect because they will tend to bounce off each other.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Got alot done tonight, I did the easy way out , I de-powered the Mac and will run it in a lash up between two Dash 9s. 
Took the sound unit out and placed it in my newest BNSF speed lettering Mac unit and it now will be the lead unit in a lash up of 3 Macs, two are powered. 

Moving power around. 
The wiring is getting refreshed in my mind. Its been a long time since I worked on them. 

I now Have 12 Revos in service and finally figuring them out faster.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, did you use just start speed and max speed (CV2 and CV5), or did you add in a mid speed correction also? 

Simple and quick. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Marty 
So the Mac is a dummy?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

So Marty why did you make one a dummy? Later RD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

because two D-9s will pull anything I need. almost all of my 3 and 4 engine lash ups only have two powered units. no need to waste battery power. 

Plus its just something to do in the evenings.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

This topis is a year or so ahead of me. At this point I have an Aristo RDC-1, USAT S4 and recently purchased an Aristo GP-40. I expect to add another loco next winter, either a six-axle don't know what, or maybe another GP-40.

So this thread finds me asking whether I should assume the opposite to be true. Two engines of different manufacture require CV tweaking; does this indicate that two engines of same manufacture can be expected to run together, no muss, no fuss? (I presume I'll use the same decoders.)

After a little experience with the CVs, I'm not especially afraid of them any more. So I'm just curious in case I need to flip a coin sometime in the future.

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Answer: yes, usually. If they don't run very close, it's best to investigate the drivetrain and wiring. 

Now, in the case of the GP-40, the replacement motors are not the same as the original motors, so here's a rare case of an exception to the rule. 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By JackM on 29 Nov 2010 03:06 PM 
This topis is a year or so ahead of me. At this point I have an Aristo RDC-1, USAT S4 and recently purchased an Aristo GP-40. I expect to add another loco next winter, either a six-axle don't know what, or maybe another GP-40.

So this thread finds me asking whether I should assume the opposite to be true. Two engines of different manufacture require CV tweaking; does this indicate that two engines of same manufacture can be expected to run together, no muss, no fuss? (I presume I'll use the same decoders.)

After a little experience with the CVs, I'm not especially afraid of them any more. So I'm just curious in case I need to flip a coin sometime in the future.

JackM


Hey Jack 

Are you running track power or Battery?

If you are running track power. Place what every two engines on the track with a gap inbetween. Say 2 inches. Run the engines and see what happens to the gap. If it remains about the same then they can run together. If it changes drasticly then they two engines will be fighting each other.



You can do the same with battery power but you have to make you l mu cable longer to allow for different speed 

JJ


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

I have always found that by placing the slower engine at the rear of the consist,

The drag of the train they are pulling equal out the engine speed.

No bucling or eratic behavoir was observed with the engines under load conditions.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, it certainly sounds doable without too much fussing. I haven't started on the re-paint of the GP-40 yet so hopefully I won't be tempted to buy another loco for a while...unless I run into a good deal somewhere. 

JakcM 

Now back to the thread, which is already in progress.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 29 Nov 2010 02:26 PM 
because two D-9s will pull anything I need. almost all of my 3 and 4 engine lash ups only have two powered units. no need to waste battery power. 

Plus its just something to do in the evenings. 
I have two extra motor blocks for my SD 45s with the motor removed. I can than make one of my 3 SD 45s a dummy quickly.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep good old battery power now you got to remove motors to run more than two.







. Now if your on DCC no problems. Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ, you save alot of money by spending 1/2 hour working and learning on those motor blocks. To make a dummy for any power source you have to free up the wheels.


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

It would be nice if GP-7, GP-9 or etc. locomotives were available to be converted to battery cars. If locos could be found that did not run, they could be gutted and batteries installed. It would look a lot better in the engine servicing pit to have all locos instead of locos with a trailing car. 
Ron


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a GP 9 self contained 










and now a GP 40

which I need to get a outdoor photo of.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By Bighurt on 22 Nov 2010 04:47 PM 
This issue alone is the reason I plan to equip each of my locomotives with their own decoder. Even loco's from the same manufacture will run slightly different. With a decoder in each you can adjust the speed on each locomotive within a mu'd group to run at matched speed. I also plan to battery packs in each locomotive as well.

I know Ted ran D-9 and SD70 in a group during initial checkout, I'm not sure how they ran together. 


*** 


I did a test run with the USAT SD70 paired with Aristo -9s (without adding electronics to speed match) pulling a 35 car test train. I only ran the train one time around the layout and that was enough! What probably saved the SD70 from damage was it did not have traction tires - allowing for some wheel slip. I wrote about it in an article.










What is disconcerting about running the SD70 with Dash -9s is the way they sounded and their subjective "feel" as to how they worked together. 

Do what Marty did by removing the motors (dummy unit), or if you need to run these differing locos together as powered units to pull a long, heavy train, it is best to electronically speed match them (maybe using DCC).

See article, "*USAT SD70MAC experiences*", 
_Couplers, railing & assembly installation, curve track operation, & speed mismatches with Aristo-Craft locos_

In the article's table of contents, click on 
"Coupling the SD70 with Kadees to other Aristo-Craft Locos & Cars having Aristo Knuckle couplers"

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... I use multiple locos for pulling power, not just looks. 

This means I have a system that makes using different locos easy and fast. 


I cannot afford to have locos that do not pull their own weight so to speak.

Too bad Marty gave up, I understand that the Revolution is supposedly capable of speed matching, would have liked to heard the results on how well it worked. 


Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of this is from my HO scale days, as a teenager money was limited . thus I had many dummys and shells from Athearn. 
I was track power but never went past that.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You know, I DO remember that Marty, when I was thrilled to run a 6 or 10 car train on my 5 x 9 sheet of plywood (remember when you could get 5 x 9?) 

Then there were usually no grades to speak of. 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

5X9 ply was made for ping-pong tables, when people ACTUALLY built their own!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Ping Pong ? Whats that


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe before your time Nick! NOT PONG!







Actual ping-pong with a ball and paddle and everything!


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

It's like Wii, except the Wii unit rarely rolls under the furniture, behind the furnace, into the sump well....


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

^


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Dec 2010 02:55 PM 
You know, I DO remember that Marty, when I was thrilled to run a 6 or 10 car train on my 5 x 9 sheet of plywood (remember when you could get 5 x 9?) 

Then there were usually no grades to speak of. 

Greg 
You can still get 5x9, 5x5, 4x9 sheets of ply but they are specialty orders. You can get OSB in 4x8/9/10/12...


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Hey Marty, what do you use as a battery car? Have you thought of making one of the dummy loco's a battery car? 
Ron


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Ron 
No, this lash up pulls different unit trains that have thier own batt car. I do it this way others who visit can use my batt car to pull the units. 
Plus other lash ups would have to do the same thing. I find its cheaper this way.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Mine was 4x 16. Two sheets of plywood with a 2x4 on end frame for support. I could put it on saw horese or on the floor. I was some times my HO layout and some times my O27 layout.

Played for hours with my HO trains and a switching yard. 

JJ


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04 Dec 2010 02:56 PM 
JJ, you save alot of money by spending 1/2 hour working and learning on those motor blocks. To make a dummy for any power source you have to free up the wheels. 

You are so right Marty

I have had everyone of my motor blocks apart to investegate how they worked.


JJ


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