# which decoder to buy for a shay and a 4-6-0



## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

I haven't bought any decoders for G scale as yet, as I'm new to G scale. I need to fit decoders to 2 locos, one is a 3 truck shay Bachmann (2 motors in the loco, one in the 3rd truck), the other other is a vanilla 4-6-0 bachmann.
What decoders are best choice, do they all have BEMF, do some have more features than others. Yes, I am also considering fitting sound, but not sure if now or in the future.
Becuase I have as yet made no investment, I'm open to suggestions. I fitted Digitrax to my HO, but G scale is another matterand has different needs (current), I'm open minded, but would like to standardise on one manufacturer for my G scale.
With the Shay, is there an issue with one motor pushing, and another braking due to differences in manufacturing tolerances as they will all be on one decoder. Obviously not an issue with the 4-6-0.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

UGH!!!!! Here comes 15 pages of this is better than that again!!!!! You will just have to start researching all the top 3-4 systems and see which is the best for you!!!! Cost/Installation/what functions you expect to have, and what your needs and or expectations are in what you are looking to do with your engines on your layout. Because you have Bachmann you have some OTHER issues with that manufacturer on decoder, and sound issues. Batten down the hatches, and break out the lifeboats it's going to be a bumpy ride my friend. The Regal That's just my opinion here comes the others!!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Two general points... if you put in a decoder now, and add sound later, your total cost (for a quality sound system and decoder) will be higher. If that is ok, then you have more options. 

As Jerry said/implied, there are a ton of possibilities. 

Rather than list tons of decoders, I'll kind of wait in the wings. I sense you would like to weigh all the possibilities and then decide sound/no sound, and features, but it's huge and you are new to G. 

I'd actually suggest you consider what you want from a decoder, and if price is a primary concern. It will be tough to whittle down all the possibilities. 

By the way, what DCC system will you be using? 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I've fitted a couple of different decoders into two truck Shays, most any large scale decoder will do. The Lenz LE230 is rated at 2.5 amps (a very old one) and it handles 2 trucks fine. I imagine that a 3 to 5 amp decoder would be plenty for the 3 truck version. 

There doesn't seem to be much of an issue with motor matching on multiple motor locos except in particular cases. The Shay is not one of those cases. If it runs smoothly on DC, it'll do the same on DCC. 


I've used an HO decoder (DH123D) in a very old Big Hauler but the newer ones draw more current and need something like a 2 amp decoder, I have used 5 amp (DG583S) and 8 amp (MRC322) decoders in newer Big Haulers simply because I had them. The DG583S is one of the less expensive high current decoders. Both of these were overkill but they worked. 

See 
http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/shay_tips.html 

and 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html 

for more info on those particular locos. 

The BH has sound (of sorts) already and I didn't deem it worth the cost of a "real" sound decoder. One Shay had a Sierra in it already, so adding a motor only decoder was the reasonable approach. The other one had a Bachmann analog sound board hacked it, it really benefited from the QSI Magnum. 

BEMF is good if the decoder has it, but it is not necessary in the Shays because they have very good low speed performance anyway.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Are you interested in Sound as well - Then I recommend the TrueSound DCC decoder which combines Zimo's decodewr excellence with exceptional sound for $195 - This is a good price. If it only decoder, while the Zimo line is excellent and offers a lot of features, I can't compete with $25 decoders.


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

The sound is secondary issue to me, most bachmanns come with "chuff", so I'm just missing the "on-demand whistle" a good decoder is the primary need. Once in, I don't want to need to open the train again for a repair, or decoder upgrade. 

I don't mid a separate sound decoder later, as they evolve with features frequently (I'm sure some will play MP3's in the future), but decoders seem to be well established technology, and the only driver seems to be competetive costs rather than "inovative" features, ahh open systems and the competive model. 

I'II be using NCE for the DCC controller, just becasue I have a Power Cab already, and a booster should see me with a DCC system for G scale, and use it as per normal for HO/00 and N. Hope I don't need to upgrade to a Pro version to drive a G scale booster :-( 
Is there an active thread, or up to date decoder table / summary that lists G scale decoders, features. I've seen these for HO/OO and N, but not for G scale.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

try this link for an incomplete listing. These are the ones that I have used over the years 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/dcc_tips.html 

Right now, my standard decoder is the DG583S. It'll handle everything except USAT locos might be pushing it. Lots of functions, effects and BEMF. 5 amp sustained.


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

George, 
Thanks for your input. after A bit of reading, I was considering the NCE D408-E (BEMF, etc), or the NCE D808 (high current, but basic features), or the Digitrax DG583 (feature rich). I don't have any USAT locos, so now it looks like the D408 or the DG583, which ever one I choose, I'II probabaly standardise on. Is it a "toss the coin" decision, or is there some difference between the 2, I notice the DG handles a bit more current.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The D408SR is about the same cost as the DG583S but not as feature rich. The E version tends to be about $15 more and it is harder to find. I have several D408SR (same thing without BEMF) and they all work very well. I don't know how well NCE's implementation of BEMF works. Digitrax's seems to work fine. 

The rating is different but I haven't noticed if one actually does better than the other. I had a D408SR in an old Pacific and the performance of the loco improved somewhat (at least when the motor was cold) with the larger D808. I think that I put a DG583S in the Pacific for a test and it didn't seem to do any better than the D408SR. That case was pretty sensitive to voltage drop, the D808 seemed to have lower drops at high current. The D408 is a little narrower than the DG583S and it'll fit better in confined spaces. Both seem to do what they are claimed to do.

The D808 is way overkill for most applications and costs quite a bit more. I have 3 of them, one in a USAT loco, one in an old Pacific and one still in the bag. They work too. 

Lenz and Zimo make very good decoders as well but they tend to be MUCH more expensive. The advantage with Lenz is they have a feature called hybrid drive in which an external storage capacitor is added to carry the decoder over bad spots. They also have a lot more gain in the pickup of the DCC signal so that even if the track connection is flakey, it seems to more reliably decode packets. However, the DG583S has both the internal + common (blue wire) AND the internal ground brought out to screw terminals so that you can add external storage yourself if you feel the need to. I have never done it because there hasn't been an obvious need. 

For either the NCE or Digitrax decoders, try LitchfieldStation.com. They are a good source and discount as deeply as anyone. They have been very reliable and accommodating even when I changed my mind after placing and order.


I have one beef with the Digitrax decoder. It's a long story, but the result is that the functions of the white and yellow wires (front and rear headlights) got reversed. Just swap the wires and everything works as it should.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 04/28/2009 7:36 PM
Lenz and Zimo make very good decoders as well but they tend to be MUCH more expensive. The advantage with Lenz is they have a feature called hybrid drive in which an external storage capacitor is added to carry the decoder over bad spots. They also have a lot more gain in the pickup of the DCC signal so that even if the track connection is flakey, it seems to more reliably decode packets. However, the DG583S has both the internal + common (blue wire) AND the internal ground brought out to screw terminals so that you can add external storage yourself if you feel the need to. I have never done it because there hasn't been an obvious need. 




George 

Adding a power source to the +- outputs of a traditional decider will likely not have the desired results. (Been there done that) The problem is how the decoder manages the power in the presence or absence of the DCC signal. For example if you shut down the power you do not want the locomotive to continue to move around the layout. I have presented several clinics on how power and signal relate.
http://www.tttrains.com/dcc/hybriddrive/


When selecting a decoder to me one of the most important part is motor drive. In Europe the magazines routinely review the decoders based on performance. Generally Zimo has the best performance, Lenz a close second and ESU a third. Performance drops off rather dramatically after that. Also of key importance to me is packet reception which is especially important for real time sound control and even more important if you do not want to spend time cleaning track. The Lenz Gold decoders are unique in that their packet reception is not dependent on direct electrical contact to the rails.

MR has recently done a staff review of the Lenz Gold Maxi with a power module in a 2 truck shay. 

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=3168

Of note is the following quote from David Popp “And, without a doubt, the Lenz Gold Maxi decoder and Power 3 module make it possible to operate an outdoor garden railroad reliably with DCC.”

As my wife distributes Lenz I rarely make a comment on their products but in this case the ability to receive nearly 100% of packets even on plastic frogs or dirty track is on my railroad a real advantage for outdoor garden railroad use. Hopefully other DCC manufacturers will follow the Lenz lead in this respect.


Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/stan.htm


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I find the comment "make it possible" interesting. It is "possible" and even reliable to operate DCC out of doors without this stuff. 

I also tried the capacitor approach and it more or less worked on an old Digitrax decoder but overall, I found it not worth the trouble.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... have been running for a number of years with all kinds of decoders, and have no problems. I know that older generations of decoders were much more finicky about clean track, and would reset easily, but that was about 10 years ago. 

Even the cheap MRC decoders I bought for $12 run a 5 locomotive consist just fine. 

When I started in this hobby, "perfectly clean track", and "DCC won't work outside", and other phrases were common. I've had a lot of people tell me how my system will not work outdoors. David's comment is from what year, and what frame of reference/climate/environment? 

I believe that things like the lenz "high gain" or "capacitive" pickup can help WHEN you have problems... I guess I don't have enough problems to warrant restricting my product selection. 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I have always liked Lenz decoder for HO, so when I started in G I just continued using Lenz. So as far as the best G decoder I can’t really complement.

The main thing I have always been impressed with Lenz in HO is there motor control, very smooth and quiet.

The lenz Hybrid drive is really nice. Over Easter I set up a temporary track out side and the loco with hybrid drive performed the best. As the track was directly placed on long grass it became very dirty in no time! Not ideal, but I got outside running trains  I had a couple of stub sidings to park some locos and I could drive the hybrid drive loco down that track with 1 rail connected! Freaky stuff!

Greg your right some people would never need to worry about some features on a decoder, same with most things in life, like buying a car. And the great thing with DCC is we have a handful of great manufactures making great decoders and we all have our favorites.

I may have to install a decoder for someone in a USA Trains F3; I think Lenz may not come into play here because of the current draw of the loco! Yeap I like Lenz but it’s not the Ultimate sove all your problems solution.


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

current leaning is towards the DG583S, easily available, and has high current ablity, so it might be become the defactor for any of my G scale 2 motor locos.
I've read abit about the Lenz decoders, they seem great, and most people seem to praise their noise immunity when running on DC tracks. But I'm not sure if that is the design or people removing the supression capacitor from the motor when they do the DCC install, and others leave them in (hmmm my hornby HO install guide says leave capacitor in, my digitrax install says take it out ?????????????).

I think there are basic features we expect, eg back-emf, etc. Then the next issue is how good the decoder works on noisy tracks.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Noise doesn't seem to be a problem for any recent DCC decoder. 

The DG580L was VERY susceptible to noise. Under the right conditions, it would lock up and appear to be dead. It often required that the address be reset to get it going again. This happened to all three of the ones that I have. Others have related this same experience with the older decoders. 

I have not experienced this kind of problem with ANY other decoder. I don't pay attention to noise suppression caps. In or out, I leave them alone.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I remove all suppression capacitors; I seem to remember reading something about why you should remove them. 

At the end of the day if you leave them in and it works who cares.


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