# Train power - battery vs electric



## Lane (Jun 16, 2010)

I am in the process of building a new train garden (forst one too small). I would like feedback regarding how to power my train. Battery or rail power. Lane


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Lane, 

Do a search of posts on this forum. Lots and lots of information about track power and battery. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Lane, 

Welcome to MLS. 

We've debated this many times in the 10+ years that this site has been around. 
I did a Google search for "site:mylargescale.com mylargescale.com battery track power" [my usual trick - the MLS search leaves a lot to be desired!] 

This is probably a good start for you: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/35/aft/112252/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

Aside from the Accucraft Ruby live steam kit I still have to start putting together... my choice for control/power is rc/batteries for sparkies. I use Losi ESCs and TXs along with AA rechargable batteries. Not fancy.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Endlessly debated here--there are advantages to both methods, and relative cost is hard to figure. 

Maybe a better way to think about it is how you imagine running. For example, we live in a smallish house with no garage and storage space is limited. We keep our trains in a shed that runs right out onto the track. Track power is perfect for that kind of a setup. Having ten locos stored somewhere in the house, along with multiple battery chargers and extra battery packs, was just not a good solution for us. Also I found that carrying things aback and forth from the house to the track, they got broken a lot. We now run on DCC and it's been great.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I might suggest the FAQ section of my web site:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-52*

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a question that has been discussed and debated for many years. It all boils down to what you want as a garden railroad. If you want a relatively large main line, greater than 150 feet, where you can run more than one train at a time, you will probably want to go with DCC or battery. Those systems allow controlling more than one engine (train) at a time. In my case my main line is about 90' in length and I can run only one train at a time. I do have two long passing sidings, so I can run up to three trains although not at the same time. I use track DC power and for my railroad I am happy with it. There are more features that can be added with DCC, but for my railroad I don't need them. 

I have one engine that runs on battery and RC. and I am about to add a similar system to another. This is so that I can take trains to other railroads as well as run at home. 

Both DC and DCC require good track cleaning and electrical connections. Your track work, while it needs to be good, isn't quite as critical for battery.


You need to determine what type of railroad you want and how large it will be. A simple railroad with one relatively short mainline will work well with DC, a more complicated or long railroad might require something different.


I have been in this hobby for over 30 years, and it would bankrupt me to convert all of my engines to a different system. If you are just starting, you can plan for the future.

Visit other garden railways in your area and talk to the owners and others about what they have done and why. 


Chuck N


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Lane, if you would like the convenience of running your train on anyone else's layout while they're running: track power, live steam, battery or whatever, go battery powered.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim. 
You left out it can actually be less expensive to go with battery power than track power. 
eg. Aluminium track - v - anything else. 
eg. No rail clamps at track joins.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Also, a battery layout doesn't need to worry about reversing loops, wyes and the like. Without power on the track, you can put track any way that makes sense without extra electronics, relays or what-have-you. 

As if *I'm* one to talk about making sense


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Pros and cons either way. Do the search and make your decisions. Later RJD


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 14 Jul 2010 05:33 PM 
This is a question that has been discussed and debated for many years. It all boils down to what you want as a garden railroad. If you want a relatively large main line, greater than 150 feet, where you can run more than one train at a time, you will probably want to go with DCC or battery. Those systems allow controlling more than one engine (train) at a time. In my case my main line is about 90' in length and I can run only one train at a time. I do have two long passing sidings, so I can run up to three trains although not at the same time. 

Chuck N 



Sure you could with a little automation. You could have two trains out on the line, continuously leap-frogging with a third at the station/sidings for about the price of a large pizza if you can follow a wiring diagram. It just takes some relays, reed switches, and insulators.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jul 2010 03:35 PM 
I might suggest the FAQ section of my web site:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-52*

Regards, Greg 



How come your site omits any mention of the negatives associated with any form of power that allows the engine to remain on its heading while reversing the direction of current to the rails as I had pointed out the other day (e.g., all polarity sensitive equipment and railcar lighting (e.g., marker lights) are rendered screwy as are analog sound units)?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My first outside train, in Denver, had blocks, signals, and automatic switches. I set up a train at a Christmas show with diodes so that train "A (Thomas)" comes into the station on a passing siding and by changing the polarity on the track it stops and train"B (James)" goes out in the opposite direction. I can and have set up complex wiring. When I moved to Virginia in 1993 and built my current railroad I chose to keep it simple. It was a very good choice because of the climate here in the east. The LGB switch machines don't like the mud and ants that seem to find their way inside. This was not a problem in the drier climate in Denver.

I like to let the train run while I am in the yard doing other things. In don't want to monitor it like would be needed if I was trying to keep two trains going. I tend to run 1:20.3 (D&RGW narrow gauge). In real life there were rarely two trains within 20 miles of each other, unless they were going in opposite directions and meeting at a station. When I run 1:29 trains they are usually a mine run (coal, iron ore) or a local freight that would have been on a single track by itself. I do not run modern high speed trains that would require multiple trains close together on a main line. If that were the case I would probably add a double track so that they could go in opposite directions, but that would take away from the narrow gauge feeling. 


My enjoyment is keeping is simple, I've been to the other side and found the work greater than the reward. 


This is an individual hobby and everyone has to ultimately find their own niche. 

New people entering the hobby have a lot more choices than I had in 1979 when I got my first LGB starter set. 


My recommendation would be to start with straight DC, get a layout down and see what you like and where you want to go. Once you have a feel for the hobby, then you can make a more informed decision and settle on a power supply that you like and can maintain. 


Others, will disagree, but I think that when you are just starting out you should keep it simple. 


As I said in my earlier post, meet and talk with other garden railroaders in you area, join a local GR club. 

I don't recall your mentioning where you live, but it you mention the state and region I'm sure there are people here in MLS who are close and can offer local advice. 


Chuck N


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

While I never managed to lay rails on the ground yet, my wife finally gave me permission to build a layout this year. My track plan includes all options. I have a trackpowered central loop: small loop with gentle curves will be for Thomas & similar smaller trains, but will be able to run larger equipment for visitors (not to mention reduced stress on drive bricks). The outer loop will be battery/live steam powered and will extend to teh front of the house. Its size warrants less expensive construction requirements. 

I will also have a small 20' or so point to point commuter line.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 14 Jul 2010 06:58 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jul 2010 03:35 PM 
I might suggest the FAQ section of my web site:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-52*

Regards, Greg 



How come your site omits any mention of the negatives associated with any form of power that allows the engine to remain on its heading while reversing the direction of current to the rails as I had pointed out the other day (e.g., all polarity sensitive equipment and railcar lighting (e.g., marker lights) are rendered screwy as are analog sound units)?








Uhh... I had to read that a couple of times.

Let me see if I can distill that question down a bit: Why don't I mention the negatives of reversing the rail polarity where it would cause problems with other lit cars that are polarity sensitive?

Well, the only place that happens is when you are running DC on the layout and you reverse the polarity of part of the train that is polarity sensitive AND not at the head end with the locos.


So, this would only happen if you have directional lighting on part of the train and it's not the loco (since the only reason for reversing the polarity is normally the locos at the front).

So what part of a train has polarity sensitive lighting that is not a loco at the front? 

Well, you can omit a DC only train with locos at the middle or back... people with trains that long don't have reversing loops or run straight DC.

So what lights are directional? Not on a caboose. Not in passenger cars.


Todd, I cannot think of a reasonable example where this would happen. I do not believe a DC only layout with locos mid or end train and not fitting in a reversing loop is just not done.

Please give me a likely example.

Regards, Greg


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg, what about the red marker lights on the Amtubes from LGB?


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Lane,
Battery power outdoors, a lot less hassle and aggravation, also cheaper if U take the track into consideration...
If indoors is Ur bag, U can go track power with little or no hassle...
Paul R...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By W3NZL on 15 Jul 2010 01:36 AM 
Lane,
Battery power outdoors, a lot less hassle and aggravation, also cheaper if U take the track into consideration...
If indoors is Ur bag, U can go track power with little or no hassle...
Paul R...


There's really no hassle to running track power outdoors. Usually I just turn it on and run, sometimes I turn it on, run a track cleaning car for a few laps, and that's it. There's no "hassle" of the sort that might result from finding out that the battery packs in loco C have gone low, removing the loco shell and the battery pack, finding another charged pack or waiting for a pack to charge, reinstalling the pack, and then making sure that you dont run lights or sound so that you don't drain the pack too fast. Oops! the battery pack in that passenger car is dead--hold on, I think I have some replacements...



Meanwhile track power man is running a long train with lights and sound and not worrying about it. IMHO, there's way less hassle with track power.


It's not that one method is better or worse, it's that they each have advantages and disadvantages. It's true that for best long term results with track power you need to use track clamps, and you can use aluminum or plastic track with battery power, and that's cheaper. It's also true that you don't have to worry about reverse loops with battery.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Battery power, battery,and R/c unit, battery charger. takes me about 1 minutes to change out the battery. 

Track power, transformer, r/c unit if you don't want to set by your transformer, rail clamps for all the
joints, lots of wire, relays and what ever you need for Wye's and reversing loops. Oh cleaning the track
before you run PRICELESS!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The mains power goes off. 

1. Track power = no running. 

2. Battery power = run normally.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I think I would like to chime in - and of course I will get counter arguments - so upfront this is my personal opinion - coupled with experiences about rechargeable batteries over the last 5 years in things like computer keyboards, phones, cordless tools......









1. Rechargeable Batteries of any meaningful charge time have a size that is too large to fit into an engine (or do you want to re-charge every 15 min? Lets take an average engine with all users (Lights, smoke, sound) with two motors and we can say that pulling a train around your layout it is using give or take 2A. Due to the cell-based architecture of Batteries (and the current availability for rechargeables) we either go 12V or 24V. I prefer 18V but found only the Batteries that fit into drills (actually I would prefer them if I would go Battery because they are more or less today's Lithium-Ion class). So now the mass is simple, how long would you like to run the engine before you pull it off for recharging? I would prefer 3 hours and with the assumption of that I would like to stop my "play-time" for re-charging time (1 hour give or take?). So you are looking at 24V 8AH (some remaining capacity is needed to not fully discharge the battery and over time * AH doesn't hold 8AH any more - more below). So at the resulting size you are now bound to put this battery into a car behind the engine - freight or passenger. This car is now married to the engine (of course you can build it with plugs and have several pre-charged cars around that you re-attach.

2. Rechargeables (with the exception of Lithium-Ion) don't seem to hold their charge over longer periods of time (e.g. 4 weeks). In all my previous usages (predominantly I wanted to go greener and use NI-MH for my keyboard and other AA users. Whenever I needed them and took them out of the charger, they had a load for 5 minutes. Neither did they hold their load in the keyboard anywhere comparable to a Duracell AA. So I am back to AA Duracells). In addition rechargeables have a limited life span. Some promise a 1000 re-loads, but I found that promise didn't hold true on any batteries I used. In either case this is a constant re-investment in time and money.

3. If you are interested in more complex railroading, you are going to have switches and potentially other users in your layout that you desire to remote control as well. Let's stay with switches. Switches need power so do their wireless receivers. So now we are installing battery packs throughout the layout, which we now have to maintain, e.g. take out put them on a charger and so on.

4. Non-powered track needs to be maintained anyhow, the weather and other nature's influences require re-ballasting and corrective work.

So it seems to me maintenance is required one way or another. Therefore I can use track power.







Therefore I can choose the best control mechanism without compromise - something that leaves all options open without re-investment (including controlling some of the stuff via PC - if you don't have a play partner - a computer will do jsut fine). The conclusion is DCC. However, if one thinks of only one loop than I suggest analog and if you want to remotely accelerate or slow down, you can even go with an RF solution like Bridgeworks is offering. You can even split the ring into two halves and therefore you can control two trains opposite of each other and therefore adjusting that they don't run into each other.

But as soon as you go and have more demands (or you envision more demands from you layout) then why compromise?

For proper track power usage here are my recommendations:

1. Build the layout by using rail clamps directly over the rail (not over the joiner) - and definitely no joiners)
2. Use an antioxidant cream (NOALOX works for me on non Aluminium well as well) around the rail ends before you slide them into the clamp.
3. If you want to lengthen the rail clamp maintenance cycles (~ every 4 years) then use a thicker feeder cable parallel to the track and re-feed every 25' or so. The taps have to be soldered to the feeder (can't be screwed otherwise you may have oxidation there as well - granted only one joint but you want to go optimum). Therefore I recommend to solder the tap onto the rail. That excludes stainless steel rail (can't be soldered or at least the tools are not easily available to do so). This leaves you with Brass or NI with Brass core rail, which has better conductivity of SS rail anyhow. NI with Brass core offers less surface cleaning in all parts of the country were Brass oxidation plays a major role (e.g. here in New England).

Our hobby is an activity and unlike watching TV it requires work. But that keeps us young - isn't it?







Engines need to be maintained regularly as well or you shorten their lifespan.

And now I run for cover - somebody will be shooting at me


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 15 Jul 2010 05:18 AM 
Battery power, battery,and R/c unit, battery charger. takes me about 1 minutes to change out the battery. 

Track power, transformer, r/c unit if you don't want to set by your transformer, rail clamps for all the
joints, lots of wire, relays and what ever you need for Wye's and reversing loops. Oh cleaning the track
before you run PRICELESS! 

What lots of wire are you talking about? My DCC layout has six wires running to the track. I laid them in conduit four years ago, when I laid the track--that's it. No relays, no lots of wire. It's true, I run a track cleaner car--do you not have to clear leaves, twigs, and other debris from the track if you use batteries? Or do the batteries magically cause leaves not to fall?

Sorry, can't run the sound card--batteries are low--PRICELESS!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Axel. 
1. There are plenty of batteries that are not exclusively 12 volts or 24 volts. They can be made up into all sorts of configurations of shapes, voltages and ampere hour capacities. 
2. Sanyo make AA & AAA size rechargeable hybrid NiMh & Alkaline cells that are green and are guaranteed to hold 85% of charge for 12 months. The brand name is ENELOOP and they were designed specifically for digital cameras so that when they were going to be used after an extended lay off they would not be flat. 

Izzy, where are you when we need you?


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

In reading the different responses we definitely have two camps of thought. It seems that there are two styles of operation. 

The first appeals to those who want to run big engines, long trains, have sound, lights and all the other bells and whistles. For them, track power is probably the best solution. Run a track cleaning car at the beginning of each operating session and then run those trains round and round and round while kicked back in a chair with a brew in hand.

I know that I'm in the group that prefers running smaller engines, short trains and doing some switching. I personally don't like sound. Don't need lights. I carried over from my childhood days the ability to 'imagine' since this hobby is nothing more than an outlet for me to play similarly to when I was a boy pushing wooden trains around on the living room carpet.

With this in mind the OP needs to determine what his vision of his railroad is going to look like. Big, fast, long engines racing around. Or small, slow and short engines waddling from one spur to the next doing some switching. From there he can decide what form of control would work best.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 15 Jul 2010 05:40 AM 
The mains power goes off. 

1. Track power = no running. 

2. Battery power = run normally. Perhaps not a very major consideration


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

All of my electric locos are powered by on-board batteries. This is due to climactic considerations -they build a lot of reservoirs around here.... It also removes most of the external wiring and renders the loco more flexible in usage. Some of my friends using Gauge 1 have problems with the fluctuating voltages used by individual track users. G1MRA states that the rail should be 20Volts -but quite a few people nowadays are using 12 Volts and 24 Volts -due to the ease of finding suitable 12 Volt motors. I also use Sealed Lead Acid batteries as I find these to be the easiest to design around as they are nice rectangular lumps. The added weight they give is useful for traction.

regards

ralph


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Or do the batteries magically cause leaves not to fall? 

What dose this have to do with battery, track power?
He ask about battery and track power not how to clean leaves off?

I think it's cheaper and easier to do batteries. I was track power for
18 years, Then I seen the light!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmph! (How'd I miss this one till now?) By now, you've probably surmized that we are rather pasionate about how we power our trains! Both DCC and battery r/c require an initial investment in equipment that must then be installed whereas track power doesn't. Well......actually, if you're planning on running outside, it does! You are going to need a proper transformer (not that little 1 amp unit that comes with the sets!) Then, you are going to need some way to control it.... Even when you have it up and working will you be able to blow the whistle (or horn) or ring the bell? How will you run multiple engines on your layout? Also, how are you going to deal with the herky-jerky motion you get when connectivity issues develop (they alway do)? Lots to think about.....

As to battery run times....Axel, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with them! For myself, I run two NiMH or NiCad 7.2v batteries in series to make 14.4v. With the exception of one battery boxcar equipped with a Sierra digital sound system, 4 in. speaker and RCS r/c system for running behind my very small engines, all of my engines have on-board batteries as well as digital sound and RCS! The oldest r/c unit I have was first converted in early 2007 so I have been running it for 4 years now. On a full charge it will run for at least 3 and almost 4 hours of continuous operation. I understand that the LiON batteries now available are even better! My point is that yes, batteries do need to be charged properly before running in order to get the full runtime but 3 hours with one engine is good enough for me! (Just for the record, my Annies get between 4-5 hours and my Connie is right at 4 hours of running. My K-27 logged _6 hours_ of runtime when I first got it It has since dropped back to around 4.) For me, battery r/c has been a good choice. 

PS: Oh yes, running battery r/c has allowed me to engage in what I have found to be one of our hobby's greatest joys - taking your train to someone else's layout and getting to run it on their track! Simply sublime!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Either or? Too constricting... or... I couldn't make up my mind.... 

I use both! At the same time. 
The oval loop is track powered and the reverse loop and wye are dead. 

I use what the maker refers to as a Floating battery. Which ever source, track or battery has the stronger current is the power used by my locos. It's seemless going from track power to battery and when running on track power left over voltage recharges the batteries... also with a lockable car barn I will leave my locos on the track and be able to charge them at any time. No chargers or batteries to swap out. 

If finances are a concern, then it depends on your plans; a few locos- battery, many locos then DCC as costs will come down over the long haul. 

Good luck making your choice, once you do there will be plenty of help to ease you through it. 

John


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jul 2010 09:04 PM 
Todd, I cannot think of a reasonable example where this would happen. I do not believe a DC only layout with locos mid or end train and not fitting in a reversing loop is just not done.

Please give me a likely example.

Regards, Greg 



You're missing the bigger picture here.

One case has aleady been mentioned. Also, didn't rear marker lights on the some older streamliner observations change color with polarity?

What if I want to put directional marker lights on my caboose or observation car? What if I only want the drumhead to light in forward direction? You've stiffled my creativity.

What about track-lit "dummy engines" that are going the wrong way?

Again, you've failed to address trailing analog sound cars.

What about accessores (bought or made) that can be made to work polarity and voltage sensitive?

How can I do bi-directional track signals for about a dollar (the cost of a piece of brass tube, a bi-color LED, and a 1,000 ohm resistor) which work fine in the voltage range I run. What if I want to have a "smart" AristoCraft signal?

What of the potential damage that you do to your track-lit cars by exposing them to a continuous 24 volts as opposed to a typical 12-18 volt input? Where are the studies you've done on bulb and LED life?

Are the chickens doing the "Chicken Dance" going to be toking on the magic smoke and will my Coke still be "The Real Thing" or go up in a puff?

The list go on and only takes a little thought as to the _*EASY*_ possibilities that you give up.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Let the flaming begin!!!! This topic has to be the most cussed and discussed topic for eternity, pretty much everywhere!! Its a personal choice there are some that do some that don't! I am like John I do both!! Then when the power does go off, already this summer we have had two power outages for up to 3 hrs at a time, I can go run a train if I wish to whilst waiting for it to come back on!! Oh providing my batteries were charged up. So see you can have the best of all worlds but without lektricity we are both in a world of hurt eh?? So what's the beef!! Wonder how the cavemen ran his trains????? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!! Regal


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dwayne on 15 Jul 2010 07:09 AM 
In reading the different responses we definitely have two camps of thought. It seems that there are two styles of operation. 

The first appeals to those who want to run big engines, long trains, have sound, lights and all the other bells and whistles. For them, track power is probably the best solution. Run a track cleaning car at the beginning of each operating session and then run those trains round and round and round while kicked back in a chair with a brew in hand.

I know that I'm in the group that prefers running smaller engines, short trains and doing some switching. I personally don't like sound. Don't need lights. I carried over from my childhood days the ability to 'imagine' since this hobby is nothing more than an outlet for me to play similarly to when I was a boy pushing wooden trains around on the living room carpet.

With this in mind the OP needs to determine what his vision of his railroad is going to look like. Big, fast, long engines racing around. Or small, slow and short engines waddling from one spur to the next doing some switching. From there he can decide what form of control would work best.




What Dwayne said


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Lane, as you've probably quickly discovered, the "Track vs. battery" debate is very much akin to "tastes great vs. less filling," "Ford vs. Chevy," "PC vs. Mac," etc. Lots of opinions, reasons, and enthusiastic supporters of each. 

I will preface my remarks by saying I've been using battery power for 25 years. It makes perfect sense for my situation; how I operate my trains, and the number of trains I have. 

A few myths that need to be busted right off the top... 

_Track cleaning:_ If you're going to go track power, brass track works very well, but needs periodic cleaning. Not "every time" you want to run, but periodically. Stainless steel rail is a bit more expensive than brass, but needs cleaning even less often. Some have reported needing only to clean their rails once or twice a year. Much depends on the environment in which you live. Different climates have different effects on track, and its ability to conduct electricity. Whether you run track or battery, you will have to clear dirt and debris off the rails after a storm. 

_Rail clamps are mandatory with track power:_ With track power, solid rail connections are imperative. Rail clamps are popular, but can get pricey on larger railroads. Some have just drilled holes through the outside base of the rail and put two stainless steel screws through to make a secure rail connection. Guys who use this technique report very good results over the years as well. You can also solder jumpers, etc. to maintain electrical conductivity. It's a little more work up front, but ensures a very good connection long term. Rail clamps are a quick and easy means of getting good connections, but "quick and easy" has a price. 

_Batteries take up too much space:_ With today's Lithium-Ion battery technology, you can get very long run times with very small batteries. Run times in excess of 7 hours are not uncommon with a battery that occupies a 3" x 3" x 1.5" space. That would have been absolutely unheard of a mere 5 years ago. 

_Battery power is expensive:_ Battery power by itself is actually rather inexpensive--essentially the cost of the battery (for Li-Ion, typically between $30 - $80 depending on voltage and capacity). It's the advanced controls that commonly accompany battery power that get expensive. But that gives you control of independent locomotives that you can then run independently of each other, consist together, or pretty much do whatever--something you cannot do with a "traditional" track powered railroad. At that point, you're not paying for battery power, but for the extra functionality. You can get that same level of functionality with track power, but you're going to have to purchase pretty much the same advanced electronic controls that the battery power guys do. 

If you're the kind of person who wants to pull a locomotive off the shelf, sit it on the track, and watch it run around pretty much hands-off, then simple track power is going to be your best option. You won't have to fiddle with any of your locos to install the advanced controls needed for advanced controls (either battery or track power). You'll only need to worry about the connections at the track. Pretty simple. 

If you find yourself wanting the advanced control over your trains for sounds, lights, and other functions, then your choice should be based more on what kind of trains you see yourself running. If you're going to be running relatively short trains (10 - 12 cars or less) with one or two motors being powered by each controller, then battery power is probably a good choice for you. Even with the lower capacity batteries (2600 mAh), you'll still probably get 2 - 4 hour run times. Since you're already installing the advanced controls, finding an extra 3" square area for a battery is pretty simple. (And you can also build your installations to be able to swap out the batteries quickly, and keep running). If you want to run multiple locomotives at once, or pull long trains, or run passenger cars with lights, or any number of other scenarios which would tend to draw heavily on the power, then track power makes more sense. 

One other point--most of today's "advanced" control systems work equally well off of battery or track power. If you were to start out with track power then decide you'd rather not worry about cleaning track or worrying about extra wiring, etc., then it's very simple switch over. Or vice-versa; if you find the batteries being drained too quickly for your tastes or don't want to worry about charging, etc., then you can take the batteries out and wire the track pick-ups back into the equation. On some of my installations, I've put a switch in place so I can simply select which power source I'd like to use. It's rare that I need to run off of track power, but sometimes at public displays it's more convenient to draw power from the track than to worry about batteries. 

Later, 

K


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I am fairly new to this battery-RC thing after running trackpower for almost thirty years. I became very tired of the constant cleaning of my little bit of track (brass LGB) and fixing track joints. About three years ago, I finally went to all battery and Airwire after consulting with an old friend who had been using it for many years. I don't have a permanent layout yet, so I was never able to put my battery/Airwire to a real test. In June, I was able to give it a real test and ran on the Fairplex Layout in Pomona, California. I'm now a "true believer" in battery power! The ONLY glitch I had was in some of the settings I had made in the Airwire set-up. My fault, not Airwire. After three hours of running (Accucraft C19, #346 and two AMS J&S coaches), I was tired. But my batteries were good for another three hours plus. When I got into this hobby thirty years ago, I was starting to hear about RC and the cost at that time was stiff and you didn't have many options. Now that has changed with the new batteries and wireless technology. 

Happy camper with battery/RC after using BOTH Battery/RC and trackpower. JMHO


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I have been running 100% battery power for a few years now.

The problems it eliminated for me? No more track cleaning prior to running. I don't have to haul the track power controls out to the layout and hook them up (Power supply and Train Engineer I kept in the garage). No more stalled trains in the middle of an open house due to degradation of track and wheel continuity over the course of the day. No more stalled locos on turnouts. No more "herky jerky" operation due to lousy track pickups/brushes and all the other critical connections between the track and motor. I have also made many other improvements in terms of control systems, but that could have also been done using track power (just not the way I wanted to do it).


Problems I don't have? Sound and lights are always in use (no smoke). Run times always exceed my interest in running trains, which is usually 2-3 hours. For open house days, I simple run one loco in the a.m. and another in the p.m. Loco are always stored with a charged battery, and I've never had one fail me yet (even after sitting in the shed over the winter). 


What new problems do I have? I have to charge batteries. (I also have to put gas in my car). At the end of each run, I carry the loco, tender, or trail-car that houses the batteries into the garage for charging, where I can keep an eye on it. I simply plug into the charging jack (no battery removal. Although that too, can be easily done). I do have two chargers; one for NiMh and one for Li-Ion (technology changes). When I am ready to run the next day, I carry the charged loco out to the layout, and either run it, or put it in the train shed.


After running track power for about 10 years, I had my setup time down to about 5-10 minutes, including a lap with the battery powered cleaning car (which destroyed the gears in more than one loco. I never was willing to pay $450 for an LGB track "striper"). But now with battery power, it is just the time it takes me to walk out to the layout. 


I still recommend that beginners start out with basic DC track power. There are just too many other things to learn and do, without tearing into brand new locomotives, "plug 'n play" or not. Concentrate on making your track reliable, and getting your layout established (Playground first, toys later). Then, you can convert to battery power (or DCC or whatever) at your leisure.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Main power goes off:

All battery chargers are non functional.









If my house power goes off, I have more to do than brag my trains run.


[*]Food spoilage, heater or air conditioner does not work, [/list][*] Electric garage door needs to be manually operated (big deal for 5' 5" wife who weighs 110 pounds)[/list][*] If you were thinking of going to work, no coffee, no hairdryers, etc. [/list][*]No TV or internet [/list] 

(Greg's house has a generator and transfer panel and 20 gallons of fuel).

(and DCC)


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Food spoilage, heater or air conditioner does not work, 
Wait--you're in San Diego. What the heck you needin' a heater for??? Air Conditioning going out, on the other hand...  

When the power goes out, we break out the live steam.  

Later, 

K


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 15 Jul 2010 11:24 AM 




I still recommend that beginners start out with basic DC track power. There are just too many other things to learn and do, without tearing into brand new locomotives, "plug 'n play" or not. Concentrate on making your track reliable, and getting your layout established (Playground first, toys later). Then, you can convert to battery power (or DCC or whatever) at your leisure. 



Smartest thing that has been said in this thread thus far, I will weigh in over the weekend just NOT enough time to type the facts tonight.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep the great debate. I'll stick to DCC as I have way to many locos to think about putting a battery in them and then they die. OOh what an expense to replace every couple of years. For those that have very few locos ya maybe the way to go. For those that had problems using brass track, see I told you so comes to mind. I can do any thing the battery folks do and yes I'm Gen equip at the house also so should I choose to run a train I could.







. 
Besides the hassle of converting locos to battery is not my cup of tea. I've been very content with my choice. As we had said in this thread to each his own and that is the way it should be there is neather a good systen or a bad system. Later RJD


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## Dale W (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 15 Jul 2010 09:04 AM 
Wonder how the cavemen ran his trains????? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!! Regal




Pulling on a piece of string about 3 feet long while grunting chuga chuga a chuga......


Dale


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sage advice, start with your trains as they come and then spend time finding the best solution for yourself, track or battery, simple or complex remote control. 

Kevin, we do have heaters in San Diego, why, in the winter it sometimes gets under 50 degrees here! And hot, we are having a heat wave now (according to the new), it broke 80 degrees! 

Man, it's a tough life... oh yeah, the humidity never gets extreme either. 

Anyway, got something for myself out of this thread, based on posting a link to my FAQs on battery vs. track power, I did update my site based on some good input from Ken B., so the "battery" part is better. 

Regards, Greg


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## takevin (Apr 25, 2010)

Just got into G scale a few months ago, and thanks to some good advice on here I'm on track power for now, i may change to battery down the road or not. BUT just to get up and running I feel track is the way to get started at least. Kevin


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I suppose one factor is if you start out by buying 50 locomotives. I have 2. Conversion was easy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The factor is not necessarily how you start out, but where you intend to end up! That's the whole reason for planning. 

Yep, 2 locos and 5 foot of track means any system is fine for you Tom. ;-) 

Regards, Greg


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

most electric trains (power to the rails) now contain batteries, which means you really can't get away from batteries unless you have a traditional setup or live steam, but even live steam uses batteries if you're using R/c to set the throttle etc


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

most electric trains (power to the rails) now contain batteries 
Can you clarify that? 

Later, 

K


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I know that MTH uses batteries internally to power their electronics


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

No Batterys in any of my trains or sound units, I replaced them with storage capasitors years ago. Even my DCS systems that Ray installed i had him make up storage capasitors..............Just a waste of time money to have batterys in trains. Of course this is my opionion. And as we know, Nickys always rite.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Have i told you lately how great track powered trains are,Turn them on and let um roll. on and on and on.......................


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The remote control I use has batteries, but none of the trains do--the trains, and passenger cars, have some caps in them to reduce flicker with LEDs. I don't think you can call that a battery


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Lane,

I'd suggest starting out with track power. No matter what has been said, this is still the easiest method for beginners. Hook up two wires to the track from a transformer and you're ready to go. Remember this (with the exception of live steam) all large scale locos are out of the box track powered locos.


As you progress in this hobby, then I'd suggest converting your locos to battery power. The flexibility of operating, less track cleaning, and easy sound function control are big advantages that battery has over standard (DC) track power. And you'll find that once you do convert one of your locos to battery power, you'll never turn back. That's what happened to us. Started out with track power, converted one loco to battery and now all have been converted to battery power.


DCC is another option you might see mentioned, however this is still going to be primarily a track powered system. I use DCC for our HO scale layout. It requires very clean track to work best. Clean track outdoors is not impossible, but is more work. So just something to be aware of if you think about DCC for large scale use.

I hope you find a simple choice to what is almost always a hot topic on this forum.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 19 Jul 2010 01:51 PM 
Have i told you lately how great track powered trains are,Turn them on and let um roll. on and on and on.......................









... Until the wheels and/or track get dirty !!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Whuts with all this E-lek-tra-no-tro-nic-kel stuff.... whut'sa matter with CLOCKWORK! All ya needs is a big ol' clock key, a few rotations of the wrist and away ye go. No track continuity problems, no fancy loop-back switch relays to keep from blowing fuses. No batteries to keep charged, no danger of leaking acid, heavy metals, or over-charging explosions. 

Betcha all thought I was gonna say to use Live Steam -- dintcha?!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

And, of course, no problem with power outages. Just what you need!

Perhaps you'd have to call your loco Madame de Pompadour.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, I saw that "Dr. Who" episode, too.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No problems with power outages? You have a battery charger that uses air molecules for power? 

And there's no batteries in any of my rolling stock. You have not lived until you have pried a leaking, swollen battery out of a USAT caboose! 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I was replying to the clockwork suggestion.


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## PapaPerk (Nov 7, 2009)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 15 Jul 2010 11:24 AM 



I still recommend that beginners start out with basic DC track power. There are just too many other things to learn and do, without tearing into brand new locomotives, "plug 'n play" or not. Concentrate on making your track reliable, and getting your layout established (Playground first, toys later). Then, you can convert to battery power (or DCC or whatever) at your leisure. 





I third this. Best comment I've read on this post yet. Start out simple. Then go to DCC or Batt later. 

Here's my take on the issue. For narrow gauge shortline single or doubler headers batt is the way to go. For heavy modern diesels with mulitple lash ups... DCC is probably the best bet. Raymann's website has some good info on this!


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 15 Jul 2010 05:40 AM 
The mains power goes off. 

1. Track power = no running. 

2. Battery power = run normally. 
...........................................

The main power comes on. 

1. Track power = Run trains until tired or turned off.

2. Wait for Batterys to charge up = No running. 

( No main power, No charge.) 

laf.me


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

B...B... but Noel, if you charge after the last run, batteries will be ready when mains are off! 

Most charge during down times anyways.... 

I guess it's time to wire a charging jack in my truck! The Manboy must play on! 

John


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

So, I guess it's a standoff, like in all the other flamewars we've had on here about the two types of train running!! or shall we say " to each his own" You can't have trackpower without lektricity, and you can't charge up yer batteries without lektricity, really only advantage to me is my trains when there is lektricity will run where yers don't on plastic or wood or any other 45mm guaged type of track without worrying about conductivity I guess!! So we are both dependant on Lekricity in some fashion or another can we agree on that?????? Hah LOL Regal


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as you keep your loco and controller batteries charged ready for use, and most battery users do, then battery powers is a big advantage if the electricity does go off during running of track powered locos. 

Batteries can be charged at any time. If the power goes off during running, you are snookered.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

This "start small and get more later" mentality has its merits, but I think many of us are a bit too frugal (tighwads, stingy, Scotch, etc.) to think about wasting money on something that will become useless after we "get more later".

Sure, you don't want to have wasted your money on an Aster Live Steam Big Boy and then discover that you don't have interest in playing with trains outdoors.

But neither do we really want to buy some plastic track and a D-cell battery engine, then step up to a brass track and a manually operated power supply and a simple engine, only then to add a remote control interface between the power supply and track and get more track and decide we need to do less cleaning so change it all to nickel-silver (or stainless Steel), only to then step up to an engine that will accept full power on the rails and control the speed via remote control signals through the tracks, only then to step up to a bigger power supply to run a bigger engine, and then step up to a full blown set of battery powered radio control engines... And Oh Golly, that bigger engine won't go 'round me 4-foot oval track, go buy some larger radius curves. 

The plastic track, d-cell battery engine, small manual power supply, remote control speed module, bigger power supply, short radius curve track, and an ad-infinitum assundry of components are all now wasted CASH out of the pocket that could have been better spent on getting what is wanted in the first place.

THAT is why the question of which is better is asked all the time. I started with the Aster Live Steam Mikado because that is what I wanted, PERIOD. Not because I wanted to play trains in the backyard. I got the track needed for that purpose, not because I wanted a train in my backyard. I don't recommend anybody else follow that example unless what they want is to run a Live Steam Locomotive. Buying a PlaySchool push train "to start with" is just wasted money if what you want is to see REAL Live Steam operate.

Granted, "WE" cannot decide what is best for the questioner... The best we can do is describe the advantages and disadvantages of what we are presently using. If you don't have Battery, don't bad mouth it, because you probably don't have any idea of what it takes to run on battery. If you don't have track power, forget explaining what is wrong with it, explain why Battery (or Live Steam or Clockwork wind-up) is good (or bad, if you don't like your present choice!).

If you HAD been using one mode and have "gone on" (or "gone back") to some other mode, you may have something to say about the relative pros and cons of the various methods of supplying power, but remember, things may have changed since you used the system you have left and it might be better today than it was.

Very few of us have tried every possible method of running toy trains in the great outdoors, and even those that have cannot know what the next person might find acceptable or unacceptable about any particular way of doing things.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 15 Jul 2010 11:24 AM 
I have been running 100% battery power for a few years now.

.
.
.


I still recommend that beginners start out with basic DC track power. There are just too many other things to learn and do, without tearing into brand new locomotives, "plug 'n play" or not. Concentrate on making your track reliable, and getting your layout established (Playground first, toys later). Then, you can convert to battery power (or DCC or whatever) at your leisure. 





As the only 100% pure live steamer and scratch builder to answer this, Del's recommendation makes the most logical sense to me. And when you make your first conversion, start slow and easy there too. There is nothing wrong with a little "bashed" critter running on a handful of "AA" batteries and an on/off switch. Improve on it and before too long you'll be into all the whiz-bang.

Us live steamers rely on fuel, oil and water and have to bring the stuff with us to meets. Get your batteries charged and ready to go. What's the biggie?

Look at some of the threads here on MLS about the cost of track. Brass, and NS rail is pricing us out of the hobby. Check your local GR club. I bet a few folks tried cheap aluminum with track power, gave up on it and switched to brass. I have come into a lot of free aluminum rail that way.

Cleaning track?? Yuck!! Let's run!!!


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## Ronnie66 (Jul 9, 2010)

Can anyone out there tell me where can I find a used remote for a Battery operated Bachmann Big Hauler Loco or what's the best
way to add a remote to it.

Many Thanks
Ronnie66
[email protected]


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

Ronnie, I use Losi ESCs & TXs to control my trains. Losi makes rc micro cars that sell for about $80. Yank out the ESC, put it into your engine and use the included TX with your batteries. Any cheaper and easier and a caveman could do it.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

How much voltage can the LOSI ESC's handle?


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

I started out with track power controlled with trackside TE and all stainless steel track. Unfortunately I have three tunnels in a ravine that flood with a good down pour of rain and when it drains there is left behind a layer of mud on the track. Next I have a cherry tree at one corner of my layout and you can imagine what it does to my track. Track powered loco with cleaning car is not to practical, they tend to stall in the tunnels.

Solution: Battery powered loco via trailing battery car to push a Rail Broom and Aristo track cleaner car. 

Now I run both and both can run together on same track. I run them all with the REVO system.

For short runs in the evening I run battery and for full day runs with mutltiple trains I run battery and track with as many as four trains running on two loops. I love the flexability...................Jim


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Can anyone out there tell me where can I find a used remote for a Battery operated Bachmann Big Hauler Loco or what's the best 
way to add a remote to it. 
I see them every now and then on ebay or at train shows. I don't know that I'd put a whole lot of effort--and certainly not a lot of money--into that. The RCs were lousy to begin with, prone to rapid changes in speed and/or direction. When combined with the weak gears and plastic drivers of the original 4-6-0s, it made for a self-fulfilling prophecy of the loco dying quickly. If you can find a controller really cheap, then get it and run it 'til the train drops. Note--the controllers came in two frequencies--27mHz and 49mHz. I don't remember if there was anything on the transmitter that differentiated them. The locos numbered #7 were 27mHz, #9 were 49mHz. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Well, I'm glad you run some of your engines on battery power, Jim, otherwise we couldn't run your locomotives on my railroad!!!

Ed


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ed, I think for my Sept/Oct visit I'm bringing the odd couple; a C-16 and a Dash-9. Both of these loco's run fine on track current or battery. Just move the track - battery switch to the appropriate position.............Jim


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