# Railbender cheapo idea?!



## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I would appreciate some input on an idea I've been thinking about for some time now. And especially from those who have experience with the train-li bender. 

A lot of people just bend their rails by hand - I've done it in the past myself. You just have to add curvature at the ends of the rails with pliers. This is slightly cumbersome, but perfectly doable. (Some suggest sawing off the straight bit of each rail-end.) 
Also, I've never tried hand-bending with ties mounted / two rails / at a time. I'm not sure it can be done. 

I'm thinking of making a dual rail-bender, like the train-li, only all bending rollers will be fixed. Instead, both middle rollers will get "slip-on" diameter increasing rings, producing a specific radius track. My reasoning is, that achieving some approximate bend on the rail-ends is enough - the middle of the rail sections can be adjusted to exact radius by simple hand-bending. Also, bending both rails at the same time, with ties mounted, is a goal. 

I figure beeing able to bend a few radiuses with corresponding diameter-change rings would do. Perhaps 4", 6" and 8" would do. One would use the 4" ring for curves between 4-6", the 6" for curves 6-8" and the 8" for 8-10" curves. 

One thing that surprises me, is that the train-li bender has such long longitudinal distance between bending rollers. It would seem to me, that there is a relatively long minimum piece of track, that it can bend? 

Also, I wonder if the train-li bender (or others?) possibly grip the "stem" rather than the "head" of the rails? 

Making the cheapo-bender would be very simple. Drill six holes & bolt six ballraces & turn a few adaptor rings. Done. What do you think?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2008)

with fixed middle rolls, you might have problems to put the rail through for starting.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, I've heard great things of the DuoTrack bender (the one Train-Li sells) but the price is pretty steep - $300. I'd be up for a cheaper version. However, the part about still having to bend the majority of the track by hand is not too appealing after just doing this. The reason is it was difficult for me to hand bend (belly bend) the rail into a smooth curve. I got it pretty close but not smooth. The main problem was where I needed an 8' diameter curve. I had an 8' diameter pre-curved section of Aristo, so I knew about what I needed. The problem was when I ended up running a loco through that requires a minimum of 8' diameter curve, I must have bent it a little too much in one spot, it was probably closer to 7.5' diameter for a 6" stretch of the 6' total length. This caused a problem as the loco would derail, but where I had Aristo 8' diameter curve track, no problem. 

For larger diameter curves I think your idea is great, and I ran into the same situation you are trying to solve, the ends are pretty much impossible to curve together. Someone posted about attaching pieces together so you can get a good bend even on the ends. But, the main point of my post is, why not go all the way and come up with a duotrack competitor? Coming in %50 or better than the Train-Li would have a definite market. As with the price of track going up about as fast as oil, more folks are finding the flex track economical


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Pauli on 07/01/2008 9:32 AM
I would appreciate some input on an idea I've been thinking about for some time now. And especially from those who have experience with the train-li bender. 

A)I have no experience with a TrainLi or other rail bender. I have 30 years as a tool and die maker, however. 

I'm thinking of making a dual rail-bender, like the train-li, only all bending rollers will be fixed. Instead, both middle rollers will get "slip-on" diameter increasing rings, producing a specific radius track. 

A)I can foresee slippage problems with your rings. Why not turn actual rollers the sizes you desire, unloose the bolt and change them out? 

My reasoning is, that achieving some approximate bend on the rail-ends is enough - the middle of the rail sections can be adjusted to exact radius by simple hand-bending. 


A)It seems to me that bending a piece of rail which by its nature consists of several widths, by hand, might induce stresses caused by uneven pressure that will tend to want to 'work out' over time. I've not seen any data on the metallurgy of these brass rails being sold. That can matter. As Murphy says, usually when it can cause a problem. 

Also, bending both rails at the same time, with ties mounted, is a goal. 

A) An admirable one. I hope you succeed. I think it's entirely possible. 

One thing that surprises me, is that the train-li bender has such long longitudinal distance between bending rollers. It would seem to me, that there is a relatively long minimum piece of track, that it can bend? 

A) There is much anguish over 'wastage' at the ends of track. Especially by me. I can think of a couple of 'radius inducers' that might solve the problem. Are they worth the effort to build? 

Also, I wonder if the train-li bender (or others?) possibly grip the "stem" rather than the "head" of the rails? 

A) I would hope they are designed to put pressure equally on the foot, web and head of the rail. (See above re induced stresses). If they don't, a used sliproll is a lot cheaper and more flexible. 

Les


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the input! 

-Kormsen, I didn't think of that, ehhh /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif" border=0>" border=0> That needs to be adressed. 

-jimtyp, to be honest, my experience with hand-bending, comes from my teens, and not using flex-track to start with. Instead I only had separately bought rails (plain iron - however I "zinked" them against rust), and bent and spiked them down directly to lumber roadbed (with decorative ties in between), around a 10" wooden fixture. The track still looks perfect after +25 years. This experience does not apply though, as I'm thinking of going into floating style track. (Picture attached show a switch I built when I was 14 years of age. It never worked quite properly, as at the time, I did not understand the importance of the guard rails ;-D 

-Les, thank you for all your points. The main point for me, is beeing able to bend both rails at the same time, with the ties still mounted. Only today did I see just another new brand of single rail bender (ties unmounted) beeing offered at 100 USD, wich at least to me seems an uninteresting offer. Except I did notice this new brand lacks ballraces - wich was my reason for adding size-rings to the rollers.Maybe I should take your advice, and omit that step. Incidentally, it struck me yesterday, I can make the rings / or rollers, from axle stop-rings, that I only turn down in diameter. 

- I would be extra satisfied, if I could come up with a design, that required no lathe work. Or at least, such a small amount, that any friend with a lathe would not hesitate to help out. 
I'll let you know if I come up with something useful " border=0>" border=0>


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I know im reviving an old thread..but there is still more to say!  
I was just searching through MLS archives and came across this thread.. 

I have a large stash of Aristo 8-foot diameter curve sections..sectional track. 
I would like to bend some of them out to 12-foot diameter.. 

If I know (for now) that all my rail is 8-foot dia, and I want to bend it all out to 12-foot dia.. 
(no other curves needed as far as this particular project is concerned) 
would it be possible to build a very simple "non-adjustable" bender for just this one purpose? 

and I dont quite understand the bit about the ends not being curved.. 
some threads mention that rail benders dont bend the last inch or so..that makes sense.. 
but this thread seems to talk about bending the ends only..then hand-bending the middle.. 
I dont quite follow how that is being done.. 

any suggestions for my 8-foot dia sections? 

thanks, 
Scot


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

I know that with even the best rail benders running two pieces of rail through the same setting will result in two different bends.


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi, Pauli

How ar'you ? I'm not sure that did you see our posted in another suject. I think you are talking the home made rail bender. We had done to re-curving 16.5ft to 19ft successfully. I would show you the picture of the home made rail bender. Hope it could bring you any idea. If you find any question or sugestion, I would be very appreciated to hearing your sound.

Having fun with our little railroad in weekend,
Tony


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 09 Oct 2009 10:10 AM 
I know im reviving an old thread..
ANS: I'll say you are! I saw Kormsen's name and almost posted him a 'happy return'!









but there is still more to say!  
I was just searching through MLS archives and came across this thread.. 

I have a large stash of Aristo 8-foot diameter curve sections..sectional track. 
I would like to bend some of them out to 12-foot diameter.. 

If I know (for now) that all my rail is 8-foot dia, and I want to bend it all out to 12-foot dia.. 
(no other curves needed as far as this particular project is concerned) 
would it be possible to build a very simple "non-adjustable" bender for just this one purpose?

ANS: Yes. Two ways leap to mind, A) Three or more pairs of fixed pegs located on a 12' diameter section of a circle. I'd use metal pegs (nails?) in a piece of thick ply, like perhaps 3/4" thick, B) three or more roller bearing also mounted on a base of plywood, laid out such that the radius is 12', as above. You didn't say how long your track sections are.

and I dont quite understand the bit about the ends not being curved..

ANS: That's hard to explain, except that you run out of rail before you run out of roller support for the rail. OTOH, Ralph Brades seems to posit that curves should have a short section of straight before beginning the curve, called 'lead'. You'd do best to verify that with him. If you're thinking of a continuous circle though, I doubt it matters.

One thing someone else brought up is that the inner and outer rails of a curve have different rates of bend. That's because each is part of a different-sized circle, The gauge is determined from midway between the two.

Hope this helps. Note: I have never laid brass rail. I've done a lot of metal-bending, though.

Les


some threads mention that rail benders dont bend the last inch or so..that makes sense.. 
but this thread seems to talk about bending the ends only..then hand-bending the middle.. 
I dont quite follow how that is being done.. 

any suggestions for my 8-foot dia sections? 

thanks, 
Scot


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I am a very simple minded kind of guy. I look at that Train-li bender and it makes my hair hurt and teeth itch.

Here's a simple, reliable rail bender plan the Marc Horowitz sent me many moons ago. Pay particular attention to the "shop math" on page 2

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/bender1.jpg



http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/xo18thfa/bender2.jpg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bob,

Thank you very much for posting those links. Very much. I too am a simple sort of guy and was going to design my own. You've saved me a good deal of trial and error.

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Short sections of straight at each end of sectional track does matter. They get doubled in length as sections are put together. Result is a stepping curve. 
As an old metal pounder I'd shape a wood block with a spiral curve face and route the track profile across the face. I have a plastic faced dead blow hammer and know to use a slightly tighter curve than desired to form the rail, because there will always be spring back. Use end grain. 

I think what Ralph was referring to is a Transistion Curve, a spiral curve from straight to the radius. Picture your self behind the wheel of your car, it's the distance you travel as you turn the wheel until you enter the curve. The ommission of the transition curve makes sectional track toy-like TO ME. Yet it's what I have.... 

Thanks for the link. 

John


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

Re: Ralph's transitional curve from straight to curved: that's essentially--perhaps exactly--what he said. Your point about leaving it out and causing a toy-like action of the train is an excellent illustration.

I think the only advantage to using a mechanical bender is that the 'springback' can be eliminated by bending a slightly tighter radius than wanted. That takes a bit of fooling and depends to some extent on like batches of metal. Might a form and hammer on T rail induce a twist? (I know-- "only on the first one, then there'd be a depression in the block")









Whatever demerits hand forming might have over a Train Li or the like, it sure beats that price all to pieces!

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les I was only talking about the ends that don't get rolled. 
I also tried to mention routing a grove of the track profile across the face. The foot/base of the rail will be most likely to twist. If you go a tad tighter it's easy to open aas needed. 
The plastic faced dead blow hammer or a leather mallet won't ding the surface. 

John


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

Yeah. Routing a profile will kill a lot of birds with one stone. Before I decided to use strap iron (actually, copper) I was sketching the shape of a T rail to see how hard it'd be to grind a router bit to do it all in one pass. Now I don't have to.







And it'd of been hard in a home shop.

Sorta off the subject, but the first thing I'm going to build for my lathe is a grinder attachment using a Dremel tool.

Sort of more off the subject, I'm not a fan of dead blow hammers. It's just me, I learned my beans before I found out about such things--we used cast soft lead hammers--and I learned to 'listen' to the 'feel' of a blow. Kinda hard to explain, but I expect you know exactly what I'm getting at. Our hammers were iron shells where you replaced the heads by rolling a piece of tin/whatever and fixing it in place with a worm clamp, then melting lead into the thing. (Had to preheat the cast iron head, though, else the new heads chilled too fast and fell out.)

One thing, I was really lucky: 'most all the old guys would patiently stop whatever they were doing and show me how to do whatever I needed.

This board is a lot that way.

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les, 
I don't own a router, but I could cut the profile with a hand saw because it's a curved face. Clamp depth blocks to the blade if I don't trust my eyeballs... could also be done with a circular saw and cutting guides. 

Lead and silver don't mix...well actually they do and that's bad... leather or plastic is my knowledge base and the dead blow reduced fatigue.... in our shop I was the 'old' guy! 

John


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## jnic (Jan 2, 2008)

I found this interesting item sometime ago and have often thought about building one. Any thoughts ??


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Jnic,

I built one of roller skate wheel rail bender's 3--4 years ago. I used a harbor freight vise. It workes ok, I have $12 to $15 in it.

Chuck


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Sheer genius.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the one I built for bending one rail at a time.










The "crank handle" is absolutely useless. I have to PUSH the rail through and sometimes the rollers do not rotate at all while the rail is pushed through.

I emphasize that I PUSH the rail through because the bend radius formed will come out wrong if I "pull" the rail. The rail cannot be "pulled" at the correct angle to keep the curve right.

I formed the rollers on my lathe to be the mirror image of the rail profile (well... I got "close"), in an attempt to provide pressure points along the entire profile to eliminate kinking that might occur in places that were unsupported (especially the foot of the rail) and reduce the possibility of the rail taking on a lengthwise rotational twist (corkscrew or wind).

After I took the photo and tried the thing I found I could not adjust the middle roller easily, so I drilled and threaded a hole through the side, in line with the adjustment slot so I could put an adjusting screw in to press on the middle roller shaft to hold it in position.

I used LLagas Creek Niclkel Silver rail and plastic ties. To make it easier to put the ties on the rail I routed two grooves in a long board to hold the rail upside down at the correct gauge with stops at one end to keep the rails from sliding in the grooves. To do the curved sections, I had to make an 8-ft radius compass to hold my router (a Dremel Moto-tool with their router base) to make curved grooves (at two different radii to keep the gauge proper). I made a guess at a setting for the bender and ran one rail through and it was not bent quite enough, so I made one adjustment and ran it through again and when I laid the rail on the board it "fell" neatly into either one of the curved grooves... It didn't matter that the grooves were not exactly the same radus. Sliding the ties on from the end was then a simple matter.

If I were to need to use it again, I will move the two outter rollers closer to the middle one to shorten the amount of rail that does not get bent, but, in reality, that may not be necessary as I have had no problems with these short legths of non-cuvred rail where two sections of track meet. I only cut the ends of the inside rail of most sections when making my loop-backs. In general the joint pairs are not staggered... I just cut one end of the inside rail at each track joint.

But, if I ever need to bend rail again, I will probably buy one of the dual rail benders and this one will sit on the shelf and look pretty (it is all polished brass!).


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 09 Oct 2009 10:41 PM 

I think you are talking the home made rail bender. We had done to re-curving 16.5ft to 19ft successfully. I would show you the picture of the home made rail bender.









Tony, are your fingers covering a 6th ball-race? Your railbender bends 2 rails at the same time, and with the ties / sleepers attached, right?

If so, it seems to me you have actually already built exactly the kind of railbender, that I started this thread by describing! Do you have some pictures of it in use?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe the following images that Gary To (one of Tony Lou's partners) posted in another topic will help. Note this is a purpose built device for 20 ft. diameter circle.

Does anyone complain the length of AristoCraft straight track not enough?[/b]


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

I think RLD Hobbies has one made in US that is just like the Train-li bender. Its much cheaper.


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Define much cheaper...

Nothing against RLD but I don't consider $229 much cheaper than $295...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm TRAIN LI #1


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I purchased an Aristo Rail Bender way back for $100; probably too much. I could have, should have, purchased an English Wheel from Harbor Freight for $299. Then I could have used it to bend rails as well as other pieces of metal used in scratchbuilding.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I've never used an English Wheel, or seen one used. I gather that they're used to make relatively large-radius bends.

If you envision rolling your own boilers, water tanks, etc, look into a slip roll. I use mine to smoosh copper wire flat for strap applications.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By xo18thfa on 10 Oct 2009 12:03 PM 


Here's a simple, reliable rail bender plan the Marc Horowitz sent me many moons ago. Pay particular attention to the "shop math" on page 2


I understand the math (it's the same as that used for converting from degrees of curvature to radius), but I don't understand the importance of chord length except with regard to how much of a curve you'll get out of a piece of track. Is there something I'm missing here?


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

So you can measure the rail ends and verify the resulting radius. Or a simple go nogo setup on a workbench. 

Using defined rail lengths you can bend the rail until you get the proper chord length easier than verifing the arc of the curve matches a template.


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

Does anyone have any idea of the costs to build a Railbender? I know the RLD bender is still $229.89. thats not cheap. Now the one from Aristo Craft is $161.89. I have found that it doesn't have enough weight to it. Train-li & RLD bender weigh around 9 Lbs. I guess if you have plenty of time to mess around with your own custom bender, then thats great. But for the guy that doesn't want to mess with it. Well.........


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I have the old Istra Metal Craft rail bender, which is now sold by Aristo-Craft, as I understand it. It works great! Yes, it only does one rail at a time, but that just isn't a big deal if your building a new layout. If you are trying to rework existing rail, I can see where the dual bender may be better, although I haven't tried one.

Rail benders are pricey. If you belong to a club, I would suggest your club purchases one for the use of all its members.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Robby,

Welcome to the forum!







(I can't remember if I did this already, but guys with low post numbers get one. Hey, it's free!









If you don't want to mess around building one, you're just about stuck with paying the going price(s). I suspect you're wondering what kind of quality you get for the varying prices. I don't know. So possibly you're wondering how much you'd save by building your own.

I *don't* *know* how much it would cost, because several good designs have been shown. Speaking as a guy who will definitely build one before paying such--well, those prices are unattractive to me-- I would choose the model from Horowitz, which consists of an inexpensive machinist/or drill press/or mill vise as sold by Harbor Freight and others. So, if you catch one on sale, there's $9 to start. You'll need three wheels with machinable surfaces so you can get the profile of the rail into them to avoid twisting and all kinds of other problems. If you can find a machine shop (I'm assuming you don't have a drill press) you ought to get a good job done on turning the profile on the wheels at ... I've been retired so long ... I guess I'll say 'I don't know' again. $20 for a non-critical job like that? That's probably cheap. Point of fact, if you took a picture and the vise to the shop and explained what you wanted, plus a short piece of track, you might get the whole job done for $60 -80. You'd have to price around, and job shops are not easy to find anymore. If you can leave it with the guy to do during a slack time, you might get a better deal, might not.

Some guys want to buy a tool and get the job done; others enjoy making the needed tool and spending the money on something else.

One thing I *think* I know is, that expensive railbender will be used a lot at first, then it'll sit for long times on a shelf.

Could you possibly get someone who owns one to rent it to you, or do the bending and pay him? 

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Les on 16 Oct 2009 11:07 AM 
I've never used an English Wheel, or seen one used. I gather that they're used to make relatively large-radius bends.

If you envision rolling your own boilers, water tanks, etc, look into a slip roll. I use mine to smoosh copper wire flat for strap applications.

Les ,
The English wheel got airplay on West Coast Choppers, a TV show, but I laughed to myself when I read that. It's likely to roll the rail flat! It's used to shape sheet metal into compound curves; auto bodies.

Many jewelers who pour their own ingots (scrap or a' Please make it from this...') use Rolling Mills to reshape it to sheet, of course there's lots of anealing during this. Point is they can be found at shops going out of biz...
A good quality roller can make the job easier... keeping the rollers parallel is most important, otherwise everything will be curved... been there fought that! 

I also have a used tool store here that brings down the cost as guys get laid off.

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Bighurt on 16 Oct 2009 04:10 PM 
So you can measure the rail ends and verify the resulting radius. Or a simple go nogo setup on a workbench. 

Using defined rail lengths you can bend the rail until you get the proper chord length easier than verifing the arc of the curve matches a template.


I'm curious how accurate chords are, when we have problems with the ends of the rail that don't get bent in a bender as they run out of fulcrum. Seems to me that the radius would need be sharper (somewhere) to make up for our realtime limitations, when bending straight sections.
Whereas with a template you can see where the vaiances are. Rebending sectional track will make those non bent ends more noticable in the middle of those chords.. Les and I had a discussion elsewhere about those...

John


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John wrote: "I'm curious how accurate chords are...."

Chords are darn accurate, _provided _you do all the stuff necessary, like reef the spring in the material in or out as req'd. To spot the 'straight places' shouldn't take more than sighting down the rail with a light reflecting off it. Mark each end where the bend starts going straight where, as you say, the rail lost the fulcrum, and you should have an accurate chord number. I can't see bending rail accurately without having a go/no-go gauge--a form, a line on a piece of paper, whatever, but then I've never bent track rail. I'm just speculating, however. And with the unknown quality of the brass rails available, well, there's another issue.

Thanks for the hedzup on the English Wheel.

Les


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't really need one. I'm the owner of RLD Hobbies. I was just trying to show how much cost is involved in a 2 track bender. My Father-in-law builds the railbender we sell. he has been a machinist for 35 years. And its impossible to build a railbender like ours or Axels at a low cost. Even the one Aristo made is not much cheaper. I have considered a rental program. Maybe I'll come up with something today if I have the time. Also its not a bad idea for a club to purchase one and share it with its members. We are also working on a ground throw that operates on a ball screw.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Robby D on 17 Oct 2009 11:10 AM 
I don't really need one. I'm the owner of RLD Hobbies. I was just trying to show how much cost is involved in a 2 track bender. My Father-in-law builds the railbender we sell. he has been a machinist for 35 years. And its impossible to build a railbender like ours or Axels at a low cost. Even the one Aristo made is not much cheaper. I have considered a rental program. Maybe I'll come up with something today if I have the time. Also its not a bad idea for a club to purchase one and share it with its members. We are also working on a ground throw that operates on a ball screw.

The nicest thing I can say of your series of posts is that they are in very poor taste. " I think RLD has one..." You mean, RLD, the company you own? " You *think* you might have one for sale? "Does anyone have any idea of the costs to build a Railbender? " Well you certainly should.

So, you're a dealer on a fishing expedition plus under-the-table sales promotion?

Why don't you take out an ad like a real businesses on this website? Or post a survey ID'd up front on the poll page? Or hey, support the website, even, you freeloader. What am I saying? That's Shad's problem, not mine. But I am seriously pissed that you sucked up my time and my knowledge for hidden purposes. 

What you did, sir, is unethical in my estimation.

Les


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

I don't think Robby's post was unethical. He in know way hid his identity he didn't even put his product on a pedestal he clearly stated the Aristo product was $161. 

It would been unethical; 


-To use a false name, Robby D - RLD, at least I put two and two together.
-To promote his product over the other using false statements. 
-To advertise his product.


I didn't feel any of the three were meet by his post. Sure saying I think RLD has one when we all know he knew he had one, looks weird but if you read the thread to that point I can see why he posted it the way he did. It read as though he was a customer making a statement about the product, he never inquired about buying one.

Les did make one statment that was true "that's Shads problem", I'm not the police just stating what I saw.

Hopefully Robby sticks around...


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

Not my intent. Maybe a poor choice of how I went about it. I don't care who's railbender you use. I'm was just trying to point out what the costs of building a good railbender is. I make less than 20% selling this item. As far as I know I do have an ad on this website. I post very little on any site. When you operate a business by yourself it takes alot of your time. Maybe I should stay away from the forums. 

I am only trying to help this hobby. I am always looking for way to trim costs. And I offer very good customer Service as anyone who knows me can tell you.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bighurt,

Apparently I'm the only guy who didn't realize he was pushing his business. I don't come to this board to 'put two and two' together, I come to get or give help when I can. I expect people to be upfront and act in an honorable way. That means, if you're running a business, say so. Del, The Aussie and several others leave no doubt that they have commercial offerings. In my estimation Robbie is looking for a free ride.

But, we both agree about one thing: it's Shad's problem.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Robbie posted: "I'm was just trying to point out what the costs of building a good railbender is. I make less than 20% selling this item."

Then why didn't you just say, "I sell a good railbender that costs me X to make. Can it be made more cheaply?" Instead of playing the innocent and saving your commercial for the last post.

And,

"Maybe a poor choice of how I went about it." 

No. An unethical choice, because you weren't up front with your intentions.

I've said my piece, and I'm done with this topic.

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les, 
I'm on your side, as soon as I read who he was I turned off the site and played sloitaire to clear my head... I felt so dirty to be used like that! lol 

Robbie; Do you know what Ethics are? You should get some. Why didn't you identify yourself as a maker of these tools instead of ACTING like a novice? Why Decieve? Why lie to us? 

While I never would have been a big customer to you, now I will never be one, can't trust you. 

You know, IF you had identified, we would have given your words more weight and we'd all be on friendly terms. 

If you really want to cut costs; have that 35 years of experience, teach a 20 yr old how to operate a drill press and teach him to make them. You'll save big on labor! 

Finally pony up and pay for membership here, you can afford it and you are trying to make money from us. 

John


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

number 1 I don't make it. I resale it. Number 2 its ROBBY! , trouble reading I guess. Like I said before I don't post much and the reason is I don't want to promote my business to you guys. I have paid Shad for adveritising on this site. Say all you want. I like the part "you can afford it", Obviously you have no idea about the costs of owning your business. No one is getting rich selling G-Scale. I run a 2 page ad in GMM magazine $3800.00 per issue. Choke on that!


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

One more thing. My last name is Dascotte. What is yours? John & Les?


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

Can we get back to rail bender ideas and the hobby. The guy screwed up and has been raked over the coals. 
Dave


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

just a sec 
sorry Robby, didn't mean to mis-spell your name, my apologies. 

So you are the biz owner(?) and your father-in-law the machinist and then you used the 'we' word...we selll... sorry it seemed from what you said that making them was part of your biz.... 

Last Names? WTF? in your profile it says Robby D. tit for tat I'm John C. (my security advisor frowns on my publishing more). Why does that matter and why do you want it now? 

AS for Railbenders.,.it's pretty much been covered; Dual rails $200- 300, single $100 -150 or make one... We've seen; a machinists vise, a block of aluminum or in a block of wood... 

Why do people get upset? Well, from the length of his post I'd say that Les spent a lot of time 'trying to help Robby' and his thanks was to say he didn't need it. Had he been upfront, Les could have saved himself some time. Personally I felt the same way, I got disgusted and turned off the site... Also there is a sense of 'goodness' we get from helping others and that was trashed... 

John, who shared a lot in this thread too.


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Robby was not the original poster so the info posted was still relevant regardless of whom Les had directed his post. The remained of the info is still relevant, why Les had assumed Robby needed one when he simple posted that RLD had one made in the USA is beyond me. 

I'll leave my thoughts on what upset you both to myself.

But all the info in regards to the railbender is still accurate and relevant to the OP, which is probably why this thread hasn't been deleted.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey ROBBY!, 
I was doing some math and it occurred to me that your business must be ok if you can justify those ads. Maybe you could afford to pay your dues here and help Shad cover his costs of this forum. That's what we ordinary guys do. And what Les was referring to. We didn't realise that $40 would break you. 

Why do you want me to choke on it? I'd rather choke on your screwball throw! lol Just trying to add some levity and a little laughter.... yes I read the 'ball screw'....but .....it was too punny! 

"number 1 I don't make it. I resale it. Number 2 its ROBBY! , trouble reading I guess." Trouble writing? ...resell is the word and punctuation helps. 

Stick a fork in me, I'm done!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen... 

Later, 

K


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Why don't you take out an ad like a real businesses on this website? Or post a survey ID'd up front on the poll page? Or hey, support the website, even, you freeloader. What am I saying? That's Shad's problem, not mine. But I am seriously pissed that you sucked up my time and my knowledge for hidden purposes. 

What you did, sir, is unethical in my estimation.

Les

RLD hobbies IS an advertiser here.. Thanks for harassing our advertisers...


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By ShadsTrains on 19 Oct 2009 10:31 AM 


Why don't you take out an ad like a real businesses on this website? Or post a survey ID'd up front on the poll page? Or hey, support the website, even, you freeloader. What am I saying? That's Shad's problem, not mine. But I am seriously pissed that you sucked up my time and my knowledge for hidden purposes. 

What you did, sir, is unethical in my estimation.

Les



RLD hobbies IS an advertiser here.. Thanks for harassing our advertisers... 
Shad: Below is the list of posts in question. I was once head of a machine shop and part of my job was to estimate jobs. I believe you can undertstand how it hit me when the guy at last chose to reveal his purpose, which struck me as unethical. I didn't know he was an advertiser. Had I known, I wouldn't have bothered. Most of the other board's advertisers ID themselves clearly. Perhaps this person might care to do the same? I was not harrassing him, I was telling him how his business ethics struck me, and that's where I left it. 

Les
15 Oct 2009 7:44 PM
Robby posted: I think RLD Hobbies has one made in US that is just like the Train-li bender. Its much cheaper.

17 Oct 2009 7:51 AM
Robby posted: Does anyone have any idea of the costs to build a Railbender? I know the RLD bender is still $229.89. thats not cheap. Now the one from Aristo Craft is $161.89. I have found that it doesn't have enough weight to it. Train-li & RLD bender weigh around 9 Lbs. I guess if you have plenty of time to mess around with your own custom bender, then thats great. But for the guy that doesn't want to mess with it. Well.........

17 Oct 2009 08:43 AM
Les Posted: Robby,

Welcome to the forum! (I can't remember if I did this already, but guys with low post numbers get one. Hey, it's free! 

If you don't want to mess around building one, you're just about stuck with paying the going price(s). I suspect you're wondering what kind of quality you get for the varying prices. I don't know. So possibly you're wondering how much you'd save by building your own.

I *don't* *know* how much it would cost, because several good designs have been shown. Speaking as a guy who will definitely build one before paying such--well, those prices are unattractive to me-- I would choose the model from Horowitz, which consists of an inexpensive machinist/or drill press/or mill vise as sold by Harbor Freight and others. So, if you catch one on sale, there's $9 to start. You'll need three wheels with machinable surfaces so you can get the profile of the rail into them to avoid twisting and all kinds of other problems. If you can find a machine shop (I'm assuming you don't have a drill press) you ought to get a good job done on turning the profile on the wheels at ... I've been retired so long ... I guess I'll say 'I don't know' again. $20 for a non-critical job like that? That's probably cheap. Point of fact, if you took a picture and the vise to the shop and explained what you wanted, plus a short piece of track, you might get the whole job done for $60 -80. You'd have to price around, and job shops are not easy to find anymore. If you can leave it with the guy to do during a slack time, you might get a better deal, might not.

Some guys want to buy a tool and get the job done; others enjoy making the needed tool and spending the money on something else.

One thing I *think* I know is, that expensive railbender will be used a lot at first, then it'll sit for long times on a shelf.

Could you possibly get someone who owns one to rent it to you, or do the bending and pay him? 

Oct 17, 2009 11:10 AM
Robby posted: I don't really need one. I'm the owner of RLD Hobbies. I was just trying to show how much cost is involved in a 2 track bender. My Father-in-law builds the railbender we sell. he has been a machinist for 35 years. And its impossible to build a railbender like ours or Axels at a low cost. Even the one Aristo made is not much cheaper. I have considered a rental program. Maybe I'll come up with something today if I have the time. Also its not a bad idea for a club to purchase one and share it with its members. We are also working on a ground throw that operates on a ball screw. 

17 Oct 2009 4:33PM
Les Posted: The nicest thing I can say of your series of posts is that they are in very poor taste. “I think RLD has one..." You mean, RLD, the company you own? " You *think* you might have one for sale? "Does anyone have any idea of the costs to build a Railbender? " Well you certainly should.

So, you're a dealer on a fishing expedition plus under-the-table sales promotion?

Why don't you take out an ad like a real businesses on this website? Or post a survey ID'd up front on the poll page? Or hey, support the website, even, you freeloader. What am I saying? That's Shad's problem, not mine. But I am seriously pissed that you sucked up my time and my knowledge for hidden purposes. 

What you did, sir, is unethical in my estimation.

18 Oct 2009 7:24 AM
Robby posted: Not my intent. Maybe a poor choice of how I went about it. I don't care who's railbender you use. I'm was just trying to point out what the costs of building a good railbender is. I make less than 20% selling this item. As far as I know I do have an ad on this website. I post very little on any site. When you operate a business by yourself it takes alot of your time. Maybe I should stay away from the forums. 

I am only trying to help this hobby. _I am always looking for way to trim costs._ And I offer very good customer Service as anyone who knows me can tell you.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I knew who Robby D was also. 

Yes I see that the first post might have been misinterpreted as fishing... so what? 

Now, I deal with Robby all the time, and he is the most ethical guy I know, that's why he gets all my business. 

Why don't we drop this? By the way, I think Robby and his father-in-law (who builds the rail bender) have quite a number of years of experience in the trade also, he just has not mentioned it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, 
Ever heard of a Lewis guy? Ever rally against mis-statements? Does it irk you? 

Les spent a lot of his time helping a 'newbie' 3 posts...under his name. Only to find out he had been 'had' by a manufacture/reseller (not sure which as he stated; we make and sell them and then later claimed he only resells...) this does not earn my trust. Suggesting that I choke on his cost of doing business was stupid and childish. 

Funny thing is when he revealed his true nature I muttered to myself and turned off the site... I only replied later after more defense was posted... 

To me it was dropped after Shad's statement (an unmentioned pat on the back , in mho). As long as you advetise here anything goes? 

Les is still irked, had Robby been honest upfront none of this would have happened,..... that was yesterday. Les merely provided a transcript and offered no more. 

Today we bring it up to drop it again? 

It occured to me last night that I would be better off letting the pros do the complaining.... I get too much crap back. 
Take it away!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Greg,

Okay, Robby is your pal. Everyone on the board knows him, adores him. Okay. But his method of insinuating his product into the thread was unnecessary and misleading, and I told him so. And only him. And after his reply, I told him why I reacted as I did. Then I let it drop. Next, I get a sarcastic post from Shad thanking me for 'harrassing' advertisers. I collected the relevant posts, which showed why I had the reaction I did. I explained to Shad, as I felt it was necessary, in the most neutral terms. And I let it drop. Now I get a post from you, telling me to 'let it drop'. Other than rolling over and playing dead, how does one 'let it drop'? That was rhetorical, no need to answer.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeez... enough!


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