# Skew Bevel Gears and a Ride on Climax build



## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys,
I needed a break from building the diorama for the Guinness. My first scratch built live steam model in 1:20 was an A-Climax with the correct skew bevel gears (found by Vance in a surplus shop) and I always wanted to build this loco in 1:8 on 4 3/4" track as a companion to our Harris Shay. Here the 1:20 model:



The problem in ride-on scale are the skew bevel gears. Kozo describes in detail on how to machine them but I always chickened out.. A couple of months ago some events finally kickstarted the project. My friend Dennis designed some wheels for a 1:32 project in Alibre and had them printed out in SS by shapeways. The wheels turned out very nicely, so I decided to have a try with the gears. Luckily someone on this forum sent 3D models of a 1:1 Climax gear to me. Dennis and I modified/optimized the drawings for the 1:8 project and had a sample printed out by shapeways. Dennis also printed the gear box in ABS on his solidoodle 3D printer, so the gear could be tested. Here is the result:



The gear meshes very well and runs very smooth. The real Climax gears were castings, as in those days neither mathematics nor machines were available to design/machine skew bevel gears. Next step will be machining the gear box out of bronze and ordering the remaining sets of gears.

Question: Does someone know a source for 4 3/4" wheel castings with 8..10 spokes and 3.2" to 3.5" (82 to 89mm) diameter?
Progress will be slow due to other projects. Let me know, if you are interested in a continuation of this build.
Regards


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

_"Let me know, if you are interested in a continuation of this build."_ Henner

Silly question, of course we're interested in another one of your documented builds.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

That's a GREAT idea Henner!! And the gears in the photo are stainless you say?


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey! those are cool Henner-- If you can make such nice looking gears 3-D printed, no doubt you could make wheels too! If it gets too pricy to actually print all the wheels you will need, it may be cheaper to print one and have the rest investment cast 

--eric


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Henner, 
That's really great! Do you think the gears could be made in 1:20.3 scale? If you don't mind my asking how much would five sets cost?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight,

yes, they are stainless steel with bronze infusion and should have the same material properties as stainless, see:

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/steel 

Eric,
I posted this in another thread in Germany and within 10min I got a reply for the wheel castings:

http://www.ateliermb.ch/shops/gusst...k/d21.html 

Depending on the price for having them cast here in the US (we can make the pattern on Dennis' Solidoodle) I will decide on which way to go.

S-4,
I think the stainless 3D print is too coarse for 1:20.3. However, last week we watched a presentation from Rick 

http://www.scalehumans.com/orderform?catalogue 

and he showed us some figures printed in acrylic

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/detail 

The layers are so thin, you can barely see them. I think it would be possible to print the gears with this material and then have them cast.

Regards


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

Henner, I'm amazed that printed gears with such a complex geometry would work so smoothly. Very cool!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmmm.... one would think that you could also have the cylinders and steamchests printed, complete with cylinder porting. I'm sure you'd still have to do the final bore of the cylinders of course, but could design the part so you'd only have to take off thirty mils or so. Are there any drawbacks to SS cylinders vs cast iron?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Vance,
I was pleasantly surprised myself how well they mesh. 
Dwight,
The machined surfaces look actually pretty good, see the reamed bore of the pinion:



I am however not sure if they guarantee no pitting, which may be a problem with cylinders







. Printing a pair of cylinders in 1:32 or 1:20.3 may be possible, for larger scales the price would be going through the roof. My pair of gears inclusive shipping/handling was about $90. BTW, they charge by volume.
Regards


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

For those of you interested in 1/8th inch Climax Manufacturing Co. Parts, I have posted on the Shapeways website a Shop illustrating the available parts for 60 - 80 ton Climax geared steam locomotives. You will find it at: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/ClimaxShop 

Consider the website as a catalog. The Shapeways princes are a BIT high, and I believe I have found another significantly less expensive manufacturer. I will make the parts patterns available to any manufacturer for your personal use at no cost. 

Hope this encourages some more Climax Locomotives


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys,

after WES has "outed" himself as the source of the 3D models and the fact, that even 1:20 printed gears work, one of the biggest obstacles in building these cute locos should be cleared. Now I have a question for boiler experts. Climax used several boiler designs for the A-Climax:



The left one is the vertical boiler used for the very first locos. Later ones had T-Boilers (center). The mystery is the boiler on the right. Does it have have a specific name? It does not seem to be a wagon-top type and it is not a regular loco boiler either. Who can help?
Regards


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

Henner, 

"square fire box tee boiler"? 

See: http://www.climaxlocomotives.com/history/


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks!


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

My build speed is about 1/10th of Bill's (Uintah, 4cylinder Heisler) and I am always embarrassed, when he shows off his progress during our Saturday workshops. But finally I made some minute progress. During my last visit in Germany I ordered wheel castings from http://www.ateliermb.ch/index.htm. The weight of these castings taxed my luggage allowance, but on my way into Germany I had only packed very few clothes, as I had a disassembled Radio Flyer tricycle for my little granddaughter with me. This was about the same weight. My friend Dennis (you have heard his name from Bill's build thread) has a big lathe so we (well, mostly he) machined the wheels. The castings had only 2 or 3 hard spots in the skin and came out pretty good: 



A closer look at the gears:



For the archbars I made a bending jig, as recommended by Bill Harris.



The first attempt in bending the 1/2" by 1/8" cold rolled steel failed, as the bending radius was way too big. I have since modified the tool and will try again.
Regards


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

I am on my way fabricating the archbars. These are 1/2" by 1/8" cold rolled steel, which were annealed before bending and after a 45deg first bent. I needed a couple of test pieces to dial in the dimensions. Of course the final dimensions were totally different from the "theoretical" values







. Here the bending tool in action (the vise is just a prop for the photo, the real one is more substantial): 









and here the completed parts for the two trucks. They came out with tolerances less than +/- 10/1000""










Currently we are working on molds for casting the pedestals in Zamak. These parts are available as 3D prints from WES in the shapeways shop. but in 1:8 they would have become too expensive for me. So we used scaled Kozo drawings to make the molds.

Regards


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Those look great Henner 
That jig really does a nice job


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

The archbars are done:










Next up the pedestals. Dennis prepared the plaster molds, similar procedure as the wheels of Bill's compound Heisler. Next Friday we will try to cast the pedestals.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The trucks look GREAT Henner!! 
Currently we are working on molds for casting the pedestals in Zamak. 
I donno Henner... Zamak? I remember cast metal toys made of Zamak when I was a kid. Brittle, easily broken, and impossible to repair once cracked/damaged. Not trying to tell you what to do, but you might reconsider the material.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight,

the new Zamak alloys don't have the problem of aging and brittleness any more. They can be easily machined and have tensile strengths which approach cast iron. As Bill's Heisler wheels turned out very well and confirmed the easy machining, I'll give it a try. See also this discussion:
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...p?p=128708
As far as I remember, Eric had truck parts for a ride-on flat car, which were cast in Zamak. As my loco will not be too heavy, I think I can go with this material.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Dwight 
From what I understand, lead was added to pot metal to lower the melting point ant that was the culprit in deterioration over time. 
Modern Zamak has no lead in it. 
We accidentally mixed a small amount of low melting alloy into one ingot and got pitted and brittle castings which resembled the pot metal parts we all remember.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

So the "modern" zamack in all the Accucraft Shays that are breaking is for what reason?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 20 Jan 2014 02:44 PM 
So the "modern" zamack in all the Accucraft Shays that are breaking is for what reason? Bruce,
the parts we cast are not nearly as fragile as the Shay trucks (by the way, I never broke anything on my Accucraft Shay), they are also sandwiched between the steel bars of the frame. 1" railroad supply casts several parts for their ride-on cars in Zamak e.g. couplers (http://www.oneinchrr.com/CAT/coupler.htm ) and even wheels and they seem to hold up pretty well. So I am confident the pedestals will work on a fairly light 4 3/4" live steamer. If push comes to shove I can always replace them with machined parts later.
Regards


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Just out of curiousity, how much harder would it be to cast them from aluminum?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber,

Aluminum seems to be inferior for casting, see:
http://www.brillcast.com/aluminum-die-casting.html 
In our experience Zamak flows like water with very little surface tension. 

Regards


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

After having abandoned steam for a short period in favor of some electronics projects I am back working on the A-Climax. Unfortunately all the references to previous pictures have been lost during the last transition to a new host. May be I should repeat some of the design features. The model will be a 1:8 version of an A-Climax, which I built around 1999-2001 in 1:20.3







The complicated skewed bevel gears were printed by Shapeways in stainless steel:







Since then I have finished the archbars, axleboxes and pedestals. The axle boxes have been partially milled on the CNC mill of my friend Dennis. The pedestals have been printed by him with a 3D printer and then cast in Zamak. Final machining on these parts was done on his CNC mill and my manual one. The 2 trucks are now rolling:








and








Next step: Adding bolsters, universal joints and coil springs. Currently I have problems locating the right springs (3/8" to 1/2" OD, 3/4" free length, music wire app. 0.08 Diameter). I checked McMaster, Enco, MSC who all carried (compression) springs close to what I need, but still too far off. Winding my own springs would be plan C... 
Regards


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

How about a company like Katy Spring?


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I remember reading something on the "about springs" page in the McMaster catalog that they can do custom springs for you also. Might be worth checking out.

Regards,


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

with a lathe it is not hard to make a couple of springs...looks like you need more than a couple though...still doable if tedious.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys for the help. As the wire will be about 0.08" diameter, it may be hard to wind the springs with a lathe, even using one of those nifty tools. But I was lucky: I posted the same request in another forum (in Germany) and within less than 20 minutes I had several replies. One user offered me to have them custom made as "samples". His company buys millions of springs/year, so the 16 custom ones for me won't hurt their bottom line.
I also checked out Kozo's drawings of the trucks and found significant differences in the design of the bolsters (which are the next milestone).
Regards


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Contact AS Raymond. They have anything in a spring.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with these springs is, that they are not useful for any "real" application. They are far too stiff. All commercially available ones with the outer dimensions I need are wound with fairly thin wire. This just looks too flimsy. Die springs have mostly rectangular cross section, and are usually made with larger inner diameter. But as I mentioned, the problem is solved. 
Regards


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

I have now 2 rolling trucks. The pillars are cast in Zamac (by my friend Dennis) and the journals partially CNC milled (also by him). Here the two trucks with an engine mock-up:








A close-up of one of the trucks with the wooden bolster (made by my friend Eric):








The universal joints of the 12ton Climax were similar to the ones used on a truck, so I could buy commercal parts. The telescoping length adjustment is built of steel bars, pinned and silver soldered. The upper/lower cover of the engine frame was milled by Dennis on his CNC mill:








A guy in Germany supplied me with the custom wound springs, which will be mounted next:








The A-Climax had a wooden frame and a vertical boiler. My friend Eric will make the wooden parts for me. Currently I am in Germany and got the spur gears which connect the engine with the central drive shaft. So there is some hope to have an air powered chassis by the end of the year.
Regards


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking good Henner!!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The U joints look awesome


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Those trucks are really nice!
Did Climax use the same journal and pedestal casting for their 3 foot gauge engines that they used for their standard gauge engines? I've not seen a 3 foot gauge Climax engine in person, but I have measured the various parts of the trucks of a standard gauge Climax that's in a museum  that I went to several times in Pennsylvania. I tried to reproduce the parts in 1/20.3 scale about 15 years ago but I never got past the plastic parts that I made. A milling machine would have made those parts doable in aluminum or other metals, but I was never able to afford one.


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

Climax used the same type of pedestals for all three classes until the middle 1920's when Climax began improving the design. The pedestals designs were just scaled up for the needs of the weight class.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Mechanical work on this loco is now almost completed. Some work on the trucks and especially the engine is still t.b.d. The engine is a D10 kit and was just hastily put together to act as a prop. Now the engine frame is finished. The real Climax had a gear box with two speeds: Slow and very slooow. I opted for a fixed reduction for now, as I want to see how the loco runs. The brass stand offs will be replaced by hardwood cross braces. I don't think this will affect the meshing of the gears, as the pitch is fairly coarse and it worked with the real Climax:










The trucks have now been fitted with the nice donated springs:









The fairly rough Zamak castings add in my opinion to the backwoods appearance of the loco. Next steps are rebuilding the engine with honed cylinders and pistons with Teflon/O-ring seals. The trucks also need some final touches like springs for the cross bars.
My friend Eric has volunteered to make the wooden frame of this 12ton A-Climax, which will be the next major step.
As usual Dennis' CNC mill helped a lot! 
Regards


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Those wheel journals look really good!


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

The drive train and the trucks are finally completed. After some tweaking they run very well. I am now waiting for my friend Eric to cut the wood for the frame. Meanwhile I will start designing/building the vertical boiler. Bill Allen secured a suitable piece of tubing for me at his favorite scrap yard . Here the finished drive train:








As mentioned earlier I will add the second gear when I am confident that the current gear ratio is reasonable.
The finished trucks with the cross beams and springs installed:







and a view of the gears/universal joints:







Currently the engine sits on a temporary frame for measuring and assembling the drive train. 
Regards


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

looking good Henner. Is that large gear the one you got from shapeways? Sorry if this was already mentioned.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick,
all the bronze colored skew bevel gears (the small one and the big one) have been printed by Shapeways. None of them needed drilling/tapping, though we more or less ruined a HSS reamer finishing the bore of the small gear.
Regards


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I kept getting thrown for a loop looking at this. I'm thinking wow you guys made a model of the Stuart D10 as its a big engine, then I see its a ride on. HAHA Looking good!


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

It has been some time since the last posting. My friend Eric cut the wood for the frame (Most of the A-Climaxes had wooden frames, as they were designed as "throw away" after some years of service). I mocked up the frame to check if my mechanical parts would fit (The engine will eventually sit lower in the frame):









The next task will be adding the stake pockets (the cab was attached with stakes) and then the frame goes back to Eric for distressing/weathering.

I also continued with the boiler. Upper/lower tube sheet of the vertical boiler have been flanged and the mud ring has been formed. Forming 1/8" copper plate is quite different from the 1/16" I used for 1:20 locos . The firebox tube has not yet been cut down to length and the tube sheets wait for the tube pattern to be designed:








The formers were made on my friend Dennis' (the same one who milled the Cossart valve parts of Bill's Algerian Garrat) big lathe:








The boiler is designed to be either propane or coal fired. I will run the final design by another friend who has built numerous live steam locos in 1 1/2" scale to get the right proportions for firebox and tube nest.
Regards


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi,
while you guys are in Sacramento running tiny little steam trains in circles and misuse alcohol for internal and external combustion I was busy with my Climax. After the mock-up in the last post I attached rubbing plates to the bolsters, added the holes for the stake pockets, made 60+ square nuts and attached the (metal) engine frame to the wooden frame. Everything seems to fit perfectly and after clamping the parts together I finally have a rolling chassis! With the engine out of gear it actually started rolling on my patio table. I was not aware of any gradient... Here some pictures:


























The wood parts now go back to Eric as already mentioned and I will finalize the boiler design.
Regards


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Henner
Can't wait to hitch a ride on it


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