# All I can say is...Wow!



## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

I joined this forum last month to research a new layout I am building. I already own a LGB Mogul, rolling stock, Massoth Central Station and Navigator. Had I seen this before I invested in these items I wouldn't have gone to DCC. These little engines are very impressive. Just from reading: if the loco is not radio controlled you have to be able to manually start/reverse/stop it? If you run out of water is there any immediate damage? I also see some have lights, do they work, if so what is the source of power?


Thanks!


Enjoy!


--Chris


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Chris, 

Glad to read that your interest has been grabbed. Better be careful, you might swallow the bait, hook and all. I'll try to answer you, but I'm sure that others will help out, too. 

Yes, if no radio control is installed then starting, stopping, and reversing is manual. Most locos have a steam regulator valve, which provides the same function as a throttle, and a Johnson bar, or lever, for forward and reverse. Many of us prefer a raised track for running which makes it easier to work the controls, stop the loco in a hurry if needed, or chase after it, depending on the circumstances. On alcohol or gas fired locos there's no immediate danger from running out of water, although part of the responsibility of running one is to shut down the fire as soon as the boiler is dry in order to avoid damage. Most commercial gas-fired locos are designed to run out of fuel before they run out of water. With coal-firing you must never let the boiler run dry because the fire temperature is quite a bit higher than with alcohol or gas. The boiler could be permanently damaged. On those locos with functioning headlights or marker lights the power is usually from on-board batteries, although I have read that in Europe some have fitted miniature steam-powered generators. 

Steve


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well Chris, 
Not too sure which LITTLE engines you have seen, some are quite large. 
But yes, if manually controlled, one must actually drive it and get hot fingers. 
There are alcohol fired, gas fired and coal fired locos. 
You have to look after the fuel, and also the water in the boiler. 
You select the direction with the Johnson bar, and then open the throttle the 'correct' amount and you are off. 
When you want to stop, you reach over as the loco passes and close the throttle. 
It if is a Big Boy, or Cab Forward pulling a heavy train it may take quite a few feet of track before it stops, as there is a lot of weight rolling along. 
I have a head light on my Canadian Pacific Royal Hudson which I fitted and is battery powered. 
Other Aster locos come with them fitted already, also battery powered. 
Just remember, you are dealing with boiling water under pressure, so there is an element of 'danger'. 
Unlikely to be catastrophic, but you need to take care and pay attention ALL the time. 
The locomotive WILL tell you by it's actions what is going on. 
I hope this helps explain some of your questions. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 
Even though it might take some more effort in track cleaning, you can have both steamers and sparkies! You might not want to run them at the same time, but it has been done. Be sure to have a steamer with electrically insulated wheels (as most are nowadays). You might even be able to pick up power from the rails for your headlamp. most have stainless wheels which would work nicely if you can install wheel-wipers to make the connection.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Be sure to have a steamer with electrically insulated wheels (as most are nowadays).Is this really true? If so, it's news to me.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

No? I thought the intro-level Accucrafts were insulated.... oh well, disregard my comment.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Posted By David Leech on 16 Jan 2012 08:27 PM 
Well Chris, 
Not too sure which LITTLE engines you have seen, some are quite large. 
But yes, if manually controlled, one must actually drive it and get hot fingers. 
There are alcohol fired, gas fired and coal fired locos. 
You have to look after the fuel, and also the water in the boiler. 
You select the direction with the Johnson bar, and then open the throttle the 'correct' amount and you are off. 
When you want to stop, you reach over as the loco passes and close the throttle. 
It if is a Big Boy, or Cab Forward pulling a heavy train it may take quite a few feet of track before it stops, as there is a lot of weight rolling along. 
I have a head light on my Canadian Pacific Royal Hudson which I fitted and is battery powered. 
Other Aster locos come with them fitted already, also battery powered. 
Just remember, you are dealing with boiling water under pressure, so there is an element of 'danger'. 
Unlikely to be catastrophic, but you need to take care and pay attention ALL the time. 
The locomotive WILL tell you by it's actions what is going on. 
I hope this helps explain some of your questions. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 



Sorry, smaller...less than 1:15. 

Don't get me to dreaming my wife and I own 15 acres, we could do a ride on...







One of the most vivid images of my childhood was the cab & firebox on a steam loco I got a chance to see. Living dangerously I was looking at the kits on the Aster website.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Chris, 
Welcome. I 100% endorse a kit built steamer if you can manage to get one. While not everyone here will agree, I find that my kit built mikado means so much more to me each time I look at it or run it because I built it. Unlike a plastic model kit, this kit has to actually run after it is built, so even following the directions, some things may have to be revisited upon completion. 

Nothing wrong with the factory built ones, but you may find that the excitement of it may wear off pre-maturely. I don't think I will ever part with my mikado. It means too much now. (well, if it came right to it and I need the cash I could part with it as it is only a material possession, but you get the idea.). 

Enjoy. 

If you have not already, I also fully recommend Marc Horowitz's book "A Passion for Steam". You can probably find a copy on ebay or through a UK book seller. Very detailed description of the inner workings of a small scale live steam locomotive.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, don't stress it, you can do both! I run both DCC (MTSIII and Massoth navigator) and live steam--they live very happily together. When Massoth comes out with the DRC-300 this year you will be able to control your live steamer with your navigator too! 
I agree with Jeremiah in that a kit built steamer is a great way to start--it's very rewarding and you learn them inside out so if something starts going out of adjustment you will not be afraid to deal with it. Check out the Roundhouse Engineering kits.

Keith


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are looking for Marc Horowitz's book "A Passion for Steam". http://www.sidestreetbannerworks.com/railways/gr.home.html 
Regards, 
Gerald.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Posted By steamboatmodel on 18 Jan 2012 06:29 AM 
If you are looking for Marc Horowitz's book "A Passion for Steam". http://www.sidestreetbannerworks.com/railways/gr.home.html 
Regards, 
Gerald. 

Gerald, things may have changed since last I looked, but when I tried to get one from Marc, he said the only way to get them now was directly from the UK or perhaps off ebay or amazon.com which deals in used books. Could be he got more in stock though, so perhaps I am wrong. Try it out Chris. Yes, I remember now, when you go to that place that is said to carry the book, they no longer could get more copies. This was back in late February of 2011 though, so things may have changed. However, here is a sure fire way to get it.


www.amazon.com


Then do a search for A Passion for Live Steam

this will take you to a page which shows the book available both new and used. I'd go for the new and cheaper price.


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## cfodk (May 19, 2011)

Not trying to spoil anyones fun - but as far as kitbuilt asters are concerned they are timeconsuming and not always for the novice (not as simple as they say in the brochure), I heard that only 50% of the kits sold are completed by the owner. Dont know from own experience though, so I could be wrong - you tell me. I am a steam novice myself, and my first notion was to get a HUGE coalfired 2,5inch gauge British tender loco - at great expense. What everyone told me however, was - get an "easy" one first. A small relatively inexpensive model to learn how steam works. Whatever mistakes you make consequences will be small. Steampowered locomotives requires some maintenanace and sometimes some fiddeling. If you dont like to "fiddle", steam is not for you (so Ive heard  ) - Also, I was told by numerous ppl on various forums - DONT BUY USED unless you absolutely trust the seller. There are many ways you can ruin a steamer without it showing on a photo. 

Aster, Roundhouse, Accucraft are the major quality manufacturers - but there are others. In germany Dampfmodellbau Reppingen and Herrmann Echtdampf - both have websites, and both produce some very nice 1,13 (yes, that big) locos that run on 45mm rail. Or you can even commission a professional builder to build the loco of your dreams - but THATS gonna cost you about the same as a "modest family car" 

With all the advice I got when I asked around I decided to start simple and have fun immediately (rather than worries).


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

While I DON'T agree with cfodk on many of his points, I do agree that one should be careful when buying used. However, having said that, these steamers can be fixed. Don't let rumors scare you off from buying a kit Chris. All you need is some common sense, ability to read and patience. There are more than enough people here to help you out if you get in a pickle with something. 

Hope you find what works for you.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I can say I've bought 4 live steamers and only run 2 of them so far. One Ruby kit that sits un-built as of yet. One Aristocraft 0-4-0 that I'm still trying to trouble shoot problems with so it has yet to run. I purchased a bash Ruby on Ebay and it runs beautifully, having said that though it does need some work. It came to me as a 2-4-0 but the pony truck was epoxied on and fell off. My other used loco is the 0-4-4 Mason Bogie that Redbeard (Larry) built and documented on this website and put up for sale last year. She runs well but has sprung a fuel line leak that I've not yet fixed. Back when I worked at a hobby shop the mechanical stuff did not phase me at all I could fix that but the electronics were another story completely. I did not care if the kid was selling me a used car with $300 worth of electronics I could not tell how abused those were by a visual inspection. I have more patience then most I suppose...I'll get them fixed and/or built eventually. 

Chas


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cfodk on 18 Jan 2012 12:27 PM 
Not trying to spoil anyones fun - but as far as kitbuilt asters are concerned they are timeconsuming and not always for the novice (not as simple as they say in the brochure), I heard that only 50% of the kits sold are completed by the owner. Dont know from own experience though, so I could be wrong - you tell me. I am a steam novice myself, and my first notion was to get a HUGE coalfired 2,5inch gauge British tender loco - at great expense. What everyone told me however, was - get an "easy" one first. A small relatively inexpensive model to learn how steam works. Whatever mistakes you make consequences will be small. Steampowered locomotives requires some maintenanace and sometimes some fiddeling. If you dont like to "fiddle", steam is not for you (so Ive heard  ) - Also, I was told by numerous ppl on various forums - DONT BUY USED unless you absolutely trust the seller. There are many ways you can ruin a steamer without it showing on a photo. 

Aster, Roundhouse, Accucraft are the major quality manufacturers - but there are others. In germany Dampfmodellbau Reppingen and Herrmann Echtdampf - both have websites, and both produce some very nice 1,13 (yes, that big) locos that run on 45mm rail. Or you can even commission a professional builder to build the loco of your dreams - but THATS gonna cost you about the same as a "modest family car" 

With all the advice I got when I asked around I decided to start simple and have fun immediately (rather than worries). While we all know our limitations (or would come to know them) I am not sure the discussion would be beneficial as centered around "kits" as a decision maker to getting involved with live steam. Here is a perspective (IMHO)

1) Kits- well I have seen a young first time builder handle an Aster Berkshire Kit in 35 hours.
2) Kits- I am not sure the "50%" kits is a reliable quote but some kits are kept by owners who just like to collect (similar to those who buy but do not run locomotives) a unique item or hope to make a "killing" later in the market of resale (I doubt it but that is their concept/purpose).

3) Maintenance/fiddling- No matter the locomotive, any thing that moves and the system that propels it will have to be "fiddled with."

4) There are many who run engines, know what general maintenance is necessary then there are those who run the locomotives to an early "scrap yard" condition. Point is to know what you are getting into and understand basic operating needs of the locomotive

5) Buy what you like, have fun and learn along the way will keep you interested and looking forward to the next steam up!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

* Time* can be a precious thing. I have never built a kit because I do not do well with tiny parts and or tiny screw drivers. But mostly, I do not want to spend the *time* to do it anyway. Even if I had the knack to build these things I would still buy RTR. There are plenty of places on the web with moving diagrams and such where you can learn how these things operate without building one. On the other hand, if you enjoy building these things then it is *time* well spent. It all comes down to what you want to do.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

While I agree that if you don't want to take the time to build from kit form there is no shame in buying RTR, I do feel that one's experience with their new engine has been limited. If you ever built a kit you would understand my meaning. However, as the adage goes...."different strokes for different folks". 

Like Steve said, "it all comes down to what you want to do". 

At the end, you will have a live steam engine one way or another. Building from kit or buying RTR still results in the same ending. A very satisfying hobby.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

One advantage about building from a kit is to not fear dissasembly as much. Since you know what it took to put it together. I bought a RTR Ruby, and cherish it. It's my first steam engine and I doubt I'll ever part with it. I need to tighten a steam line going to the cylinders but worry about hurting or damaging it.


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Marc's book " A Passion for Steam " is available from Camden Book Sellers in the UK. Cost less from them than Amazon or anywhere else in the States ! Placed the order and had the book by Royal Mail in 7 days . 

http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/ Do a search , book is listed at 29.95 pounds in stock. 

Charles M SA #74


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

I love building things, built model planes as a kid, the nice old ones with retractable gear! Discarded them long ago...so a kit is right up my alley. I guess I would need somebody to be more specific on the fiddling? Does this mean you can follow directions to the letter and it won't run?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

dawktah 

If you don't know about "fiddling", you probably never owned a car that predates fuel injection and computer control during your teenage years. Every kid I knew in the 50s-60s did some level of "tinkering" with their automobile, in part so that if something minor broke or needed adjustment they knew what to do, and because they took pride in the fact that their vehicle performed the way they liked.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

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Posted By Charles M on 19 Jan 2012 04:30 PM 
Marc's book " A Passion for Steam " is available from Camden Book Sellers in the UK. Cost less from them than Amazon or anywhere else in the States ! Placed the order and had the book by Royal Mail in 7 days . 

http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/ Do a search , book is listed at 29.95 pounds in stock. 

Charles M SA #74 
When I ordered from Camden it was around the same price as from amazon. Wonder if Camden has lowered the price? The reason I chose Camden was because Marc had told me over the phone that it is where I should look. Didn't try amazon.com at that point. Took a while to ship as they did not have them in stock, but processed my order anyway. That is when I looked at other areas and considered cancelling my order from Camden. I stuck with it and waited. Glad I did. I now get the occasional catalog from Camden books. I'd order from them again. Probably one book I would never sell though. 



I'll let you know a bit about my experience. I bought an Aster Mikado kit. I followed the directions and save for a few "hic-cups", it went together like a water molecule. Those "hic-cups"? Very minor. I had one part missing, but even that was not necessary to have the engine run. Fortunately for me, I live next to a guru who knows his stuff. Norm Saley. Great guy who was generous enough to help me out. Not only that, but I got to watch him work so I learned in the process. Building the Mikado from kit form has given me the confidence of taking it apart if I need to and not "worrying" about breaking something. Still need to be careful because these parts are small and made of brass. Can't be too giddy with tightening things.


I know not everyone experiences a kit with missing parts, so don't worry about it. Aster was great at helping me out. Hans (us. aster representative) along with some other fine aster distributors here, helped me out whenever i needed help. This is a great place to be a part of, especially if you are building your very first kit.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have never HAD TO "fiddle" with either of my Mikes to make them run, other than:

My miss-reading the instructions and my first run of the chassis (on air) took off backwards and nearly crashed THROUGH the glass door on my small china cabinet! So some "Fiddling" needed to be done to correct my error. (And, okay, okay, maybe I should not have been doing the assembly on my dining room table, but that's a whole nutha story and has nothing to do with the present subject matter.)

And I have "PLAYED" with the design of the smokebox components trying to make more "CHUFF" sound... it was said that no "Foreman of Motive Power" was worth his salt if he didn't mess with the design of the blast pipe and the blower/stack relationship!

I have also WRECKED one of my engines (and I mean SERIOUSLY WRECKED, and MORE THAN once!) and so I have had to correct BENT parts and replace some broken parts... nothing major has "broken", just handrail standoffs and the bolt that holds the headlight to the bracket on the smokebox, but I have bent the frame members that support the cowcatcher.

I have also added weights to the front pilot to help them stay on the rails on one of my Mikes. The other Mike has not had that problem.

I installed Servos to control the Throttle, Blower and Reverser. and I made a minor mod to the cab to fit a brass channel to run the servo wires to the Reverser servo (mounted under the smokebox) so if the fire starts to leak out from under the sides of the firebox the wires do not catch fire (happens if the auxblower has weak batteries! I understand it is fun to watch the President of the RR when that happens!







).


I am not certain that anyone that can follow instructions can assemble a kit.

I knew a fellow that assembled a Ruby kit. If something didn't fit immediately he got a bigger hammer. If a threaded part seemed hard to turn, he got a bigger pair of pliers and squeezed much harder and forced it. In the end, he sent his poorly working assembly to the manufacturer and they sent it back in working order. (I didn't think it fair, but I understand the manufacturer did the work for free!)

He was one of the "FEW" people that probably should not attempt to assemble a kit -- no matter what.

I do believe that you can learn a lot in assembling a kit, but only if you study the components and how they interact and really take the time to understand WHY things are as they are. If there is something that you don't understand or seems to be silly or does not fit your understanding of physics, then come to this web forum and ask questions.

If you just insert tab A in slot B and then do the next step, you will not have learned much. BUT, in having the kit instructions, you might be able to take it back apart to fix something or to make corrections for where you put tab A in slot C.

Part of the assembly instructions will be how to perform the "Timing" setup to make it work, so if you follow the instructions right, it will work when you are done, unless there is a mis-manufactured part (or you didn't really follow the instructions!). Mechanical things do wear and wear out, so you might need to repeat the "Timing" setup to take that into account and the time you spent doing it in the kit assembly will be valuable in doing it again at the 10,000 mile mark.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Charles, you should link the video of those wrecks. They are classic in my book.


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## dawktah (Dec 29, 2011)

Jeremiah, after looking at your blog it looks like an excuse to buy a micro acetylene torch


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

No acetylene torch required, but I did buy a micro torch to do some soldering. Detail parts which did not come with my kit, but purchased second hand and had to reattach some things. I have since used that torch many times on many different projects, so it was not a one time purchase.


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## cfodk (May 19, 2011)

I contributed to this topic, - but did not follow my own advice -  

I decided to buy the new Gauge 3 (2,5inch gauge) Britannia from "Kingscale Livesteam". So much for starting simple. By all means - take on a challenge - you only live once. Thats my new motto. So disregard whatever else I said in this thread.... 

Thanks 
Carsten


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