# Concrete arch bridge designs questions..



## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

In doing a bit of research through some old Illinois Cnetral photo acrchives, I noticed a consistancy in bridge design. The IC seemed to use the same basic concrete arch bridge type in a number of locations. It's basically the same bridge with a few minor modifications to suit the specific application. Here are a few examples..

Carbondale Illinois, over the Big Muddy River north of town.










Kankakee Illinois, Downtown Kankakee over the Kankakee river. 










Bovina Mississippi, over the Black River. 











My question is, is this a standard design that was "manufactured" by a bridge company? Was it a standard design whereby the railroads would purchase the designs or plans and build it themselves? Was this a bridge design that the IC Bridge & Building engineers came up with themselves and use throught the railroad? 

There is another bridge in Kankakee on W. Station Street, a standard automotive/pedestrian bridge, of the same design. (Good view of it on Google Maps). This design seems fairly ubiquitious. I'm just wondering as to the desgin origins.. 

Thanks.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Those are great bridges! Really beautiful. 

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that railroads usually designed their own bridges; and they tended to reuse designs whenever possible to save on design costs.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the railroad companies designed their own bridges too. The DRGW had very consistant designs for truss bridges. They only varied in length. Doing a Google Book search I found a number of trestle bents unique to particular railroads.

Back in the day, railroads were empires. I bet they had standards for everything.

Are you going to build one of these??

Bob


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

To best answer your question, yes the railroads had standard designs. The caveat is that the soil conditions at each location required that the engineering for the bridge itself had to be recalculated based on the foundations required. Although all of the bridges shown 'look alike', the actual dimensions may be different. More specific differences noted, each has a different arch design. The first is using an elliptical design, the second has a partial arch, and the third has a considerably deeper arch. Each has a major difference in the engineering.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Those IC bridges are amazingly similar and quite handsome. From what I have been able to discern,many early U.S. railroads employed the very best engineers they could find and attract ($$). Among that particular fraternity of professionals existed much ego and pride. Each engineer developed what he felt to be the very best structural design that also met the aesthetic requirements of his particular employer. Once a satisfactory design was agreed to, that frequently became the de facto standard for the railroad upon which successive structures along the right of way would be based. 

The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad's early history was marked by much infighting and controversy over whose [engineering] ideas would prevail and whether or not they were too costly. Stone was the preferred material for major bridges or viaducts on the line leading out of Baltimore towards Ellicotts Mills, MD. As such it was also used for the Washington Branch cutoff at the Patapsco River in the great Thomas Viaduct, which still stands and supports the heavy tonnage freight trains of today. There has been much discussion that the exorbitant cost of the "over-engineered" masonry bridges and viaducts put the B&O into debt from which they would never really recover.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Here is the link to the Thomas Viaduct on Wikapedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Viaduct

1835 and still being used.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Guys. Most of you just confirmed what I was thinking. My Dad was a Civil Engineer with the IC for his career. I seem to recall him saying that all IC bridges were designed in house. 

Bob: Yes, I am considering building one for my layout. Just gotta figure out how....


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave those IC designs are somewhat similar to the Tunkhannock Viaduct in Pennsylvania. 
http://www.bridgemeister.com/pic.php?pid=796


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave F on 19 Dec 2009 03:54 PM 
Thanks Guys. Most of you just confirmed what I was thinking. My Dad was a Civil Engineer with the IC for his career. I seem to recall him saying that all IC bridges were designed in house. 

Bob: Yes, I am considering building one for my layout. Just gotta figure out how.... 
The form work for the Bovina would be a challenge. I would attempt pouring it in several sections and gluing the sections together with exterior grade Liquid Nails


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I was thinking of using my background in chemistry. I'd start by assembling a mold with styrene foam for the void spaces. Pouring the concrete and allowing it to cure, then disolving the foam away with acetone.. 

Might be worth a try..


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

That should work. Like a lost wax process


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## jinn (Dec 10, 2009)

If interested in bridges, here is a little story.........
I took a job in Phoenix, AZ, in July of 1979. Meandering through the city is a rock-strewn wash called Salt River, normally dry as a bone year-round. We had heard the flooding horror stories, but wrote them off. In January, it started raining nearly every day. Turns out, all that run-off up in the mountains winds up impounded in 5 artificial lakes, one above the other, the highest up is Roposevelt Lake, the biggest, then on down to the lowest, just outside of Phoenix's east side. These lakes are operated by the SAlt River Project, which generates electricity so some extent, but mainly sells the impounded water for both City and agricultural purposes. To them, water is $$$, and they are VERY reluctant to waste any water by allowing it to flow uselessly into the Salt River channel, and thence through the city and on out eventually, I think, to the Colorado River in Yuma.

At any rate, SRP held onto all that rainfall runoff, until they realized that with the floodgates opened at maximum, the level behind Stewart Mountain Dam, the lowest altitude-wise, continued to rise, with the spector of over-topping the dam, breaching it; predictions were that IF that happened, downtown Phoenix would have 2 feet of water everywhere.

The normally-dry Salt River became an impassable torrent, half-a-mile wide in places, as ALL but 3 of the bridges spanning it FAILED! Those were the Mill Ave. Bridge, built during WPA days, Central Avenue, and a railroad bridge near it, which was not useable by vehicular traffic. ALL the trafffic which normally used a total of about 8-10 bridges was forced to divert to Central or Mill. The traffic tie-ups were astronomical for several weeks, not to mention the additional distance required to be driven. When the floodgates were finally closed, all the now-unbridged crossings were made into gravel roadways, to carry the traffic across the dry riverbed. Political battles raged over placing the blame, raising money to build new bridges, etc. Even the Interstate I-10 highway bridge across the Salt had FAILED!

Driving to work everyday, crossing the Salt over it's gravelly bottom, at 51st. Ave., big equipment started showing up, in February. Clearly, they were going to build a bridge there! The previous structure had been a concrete culvert with square holes through it, just about enough capacity for perhaps 1% of what had flowed there a month before. The peak flow had been 186,000 cubic feet per second- that's a million four-hundred thousand gallons PER SECOND! Contrast that figure with the highest-ever recorded flow in the Colorado River, the number used in building Hoover Dam, was 200,000 cfs! The flow at 51st. Ave. had been 1600 feet wide. Huge truckloads of steel I-beams arrived daily, about 12X12" X 40 feet long. Pile-driving machines were brought in, bulldozers dug down into the riverbottom about 30 feet deep, the I-beams were then driven into the riverbottom in groups of 10, every 100 feet. Each group of 10 was encased in concrete, as about 4 feet of each beam was all that was not driven into the ground. Much reinforcing steel went into all of this, as large round columns were formed and poured which became a part of the structure of each pedestal of I-beams; I recall about 18 such supports being poured. They were high, about 30-40 feet above the old riverbottom. Reinforced concrete beams, 5 feet high by 100 feet long were laid, 5-wide, on top of the supports, forming was added to pour roadway concrete on top of the beams.

We stopped and talked to one of the Engineers. I remarked to him that if THIS bridge failed, it could be deemed IMPOSSIBLE to bridge 51st. Ave.! He smiled, and added they saw it that way, too! Turns out, the entire bridge was built by the County, the only contracting being done was for procurement and hauling. The finished structure was wide enough for 4 lanes, but was set up as 2 very wide ones, as 51st. was a 2-lane roadway anyhow. As everyone joked about how such a huge bridge would probably never see water beneath it, the money was wasted, blah, blah, etc., the following year, the river flooded AGAIN! 3 years in succession, each flood being called a 100-year flood! 

Eventually, adequate bridges were built for all the roadways crossing the Salt, but 51st. Ave. will always impress us as having had unusual foresight and quick-planning applied to solve an immediate, horrendous traffic problem.

Thanks for reading! jinn

Edit: As an aside: The ENTIRE supply of petroleum products shipped into the City of Phoenix arrives through 2 buried pipelines, which come from refineries and shipping points in California, and BOTH pipelines cross----you guessed it! The Salt River at 51st. Ave. The flood had unearthed them both, threatened to rip them out. Engineers managed to span the chasm with temporary pipelines during the floods. ALL the gasoline sold in the area arrives through those 2 pipes................


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Dave F on 19 Dec 2009 06:11 PM 
I was thinking of using my background in chemistry. I'd start by assembling a mold with styrene foam for the void spaces. Pouring the concrete and allowing it to cure, then disolving the foam away with acetone.. 

Might be worth a try.. 

When I lived in Portland Oregon there was a company that scultures our of Styrene Foam which were quite detailed. They then would put them in Casting sand. Then they would pour molten metal on the foam. The hot metal would vaporize the foam and instantly replace it with metal. When it cooled there was a cast in metal of the foam scupture. I seen them make parts for oil well drill bits and all kinds of stuff. 

So your Idea is workable.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Whenever we think we have nature under control, she lets us know how foolish we are.

The trouble with 100-year-floods is they seem to come about once ever 15 years.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

This is what the area that "jinn" was talking about in Phoenix looks like now. It is actually in Tempe, Az. The bridge in the lower right is the new Mill Ave Bridge over the Salt River built by Maricope County that carries the NB Mill Ave Traffic. The bridge that is most prominent in the photo is the original Mill Ave Concrete Arch Bridge that caries the SB traffic. In the background you can see the Multiple Span Steel Truss Bridge that carries the UP RR. Just in front of it is the new Steel Triangular Truss Bridge for the Phoenix Light Rail. (2 Light Rail trains are on it.) Just behind the tall power pole is the Red Mountain Freeway (SR 202). The water in the river is actually a lake. The City of Tempe built an inflatable dam across the Salt River about 10 years ago and filled the river. The dam is in the picture just above the top of the RR bridge. In July they start construction of a new Steel Arch Pedestrian Bridge across the top of the dam.This picture was taken out of my office window. I work for T Y Lin International as a bridge designer. We designed the Red Mountain Freeway bridge over Mill Ave, the Light Rail Bridge over the Salt River and the new bridge that is going over the top of the dam.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Torby on 21 Dec 2009 07:29 AM 
Whenever we think we have nature under control, she lets us know how foolish we are.

I agree 100%. The trouble with 100-year-floods is they seem to come about once ever 15 years.

What most people don't realize is that "100 year flood" doesn't mean only once every 100 years, but instead a 1-in-100 chance of occurring in any given year (see http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/100yearflood.html). The events of one year are statistically independent of those of another year, just like there's a 1-in-52 chance of drawing the ace of spades from a card deck every time (provided the drawn card is put back into the deck).


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

If your looking for some good reference material on bridge construction I would reccomend any of the books written by George A. Hool, published in the 1940's by McGraw Hill Book Company. (pre ISBN) They were intended as college text books and they have a wealth of information including the basics of each design, strengths and weakness, and most inportant, drawings with dimnentions of various standard structures from Highway Departments and Railroads. I used to see a lot of them in used book stores around schools with larger engineering departments.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are a couple of links to two famous concrete bridges in the Los Angeles area. Both have been used in movies extensively as backdrops or as part of the storyline. The first one is the Hyperion Bridge. It was used in Roger Rabbit early in the film as the animated "taxi" was trying to escape the police.

http://bigorangelandmarks.blogspot....ridge.html

Thr second link is to the Colorado Blvd. bridge (Suicide bridge) crosses over the Arroyo Seco between Glendale and Pasadena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...alifornia)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 22 Dec 2009 02:26 PM 
Here are a couple of links to two famous concrete bridges in the Los Angeles area. Both have been used in movies extensively as backdrops or as part of the storyline. The first one is the Hyperion Bridge. It was used in Roger Rabbit early in the film as the animated "taxi" was trying to escape the police.

http://bigorangelandmarks.blogspot....ridge.html

Thr second link is to the Colorado Blvd. bridge (Suicide bridge) crosses over the Arroyo Seco between Glendale and Pasadena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...California)




Ummmm... that second link to Wikipedia... it says they don't have an article about that bridge. ????


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Try this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...California)


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

They have a busted kink there, but you can get to the information and photos on the Pasadena Bridge by using some of the links in what I posted.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 22 Dec 2009 04:06 PM 
They have a busted kink there, but you can get to the information and photos on the Pasadena Bridge by using some of the links in what I posted.
Gary

The Wiki link is OK, it's just that you've got to use the HTML URL encoding for the parenthesis (i.e. %28 & %29) when you create the link. Your original link now works.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Nice Dave, I drive by the arch in Carbondale ALL the time, My 5 year old knows right where it is etc. I too would like to build it, please let me know when you start yours and how you plan on doing it. I was think of using foam board totally or using it as a form for concrete. hhhmmmm


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm thinking once I get the railroad back up an running (soon, weather dependant).. building that bridge will be one of my first projects this coming spring. Once I get going on it, I'll run a construction thread here..


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave: I suppose you can't pour concrete in the winter? It freezes rather than cures?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Concrete installation in cold weather can be successful. Do no pour concrete on frozen ground. Mix concrete with hot water, warm sand and gravel and add extra cement. Use a liquid curing compound or Calcium I just put in a concrete footing 2 weeks ago when it was in the upper 30's. Once the ground is frozen though your out of luck.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I suppose that I could do all the things mentioned above in order to do a pour in winter conditions. But that would neccisitate me being out in the cold and snow as well actually doing it. I'm sorry but that just won't do. Brrrrrrr.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I was thinking... "HEATED GARAGE" you silly guys, surely it can be transported easy enough on a wagon or something? Make sure to use reinforcing re-bar etc. To make it even heavier to break your back eh?


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i think, Dave is using the best tecnique: patience...


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually John, I was planning on using enough rebar and wire mesh, scrap angle irons and leftover coat hangers that I'd only need about a pound of concrete... I mean, concrete is heavy , isn't it?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

As I remember it a general rule-of-thumb is 150 lbs. per cubic foot, but can vary from about 90 to 300 lbs. or more depending mainly on the the aggregate used. Ask JJ about his tunnel.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Bondo is a rather light substance! I mean, what else are you gonna do when you can't go outside? I have built a foam portal & some guardrails for the Church layout. In the process of re-wiring and painting my 1st Engine. All in the last 2 weeks! Now the wife insists that I clean off the dining room table to make room for Christmas dinner?!?!?! I am right in the middle of this project! WHAT SHOULD I DO?


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh heck, that's easy... Buy her a new dining room table..


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