# DCS - Questons???



## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Okay I am a newbie and leaning toward DCS as the primary means to control my trains and layout.
HOWEVER I have a few "simple" questions that I am confused on, can one of you help?

#1 - DCS is proprietary to MTH correct
#2 - "RailKing 1" is their "G-Scale" line - "RailKing" is their primary line and it is "O" gauge (I can't tell what is G and what is O)
#3 - Their "O" gauge is 3 rail and their "G" gauge is indeed 2 rail?
#4 – ProtoSound 2.0 is part of the DCS system not separate?
#5 - MTH locos come ready to run out of the box - Sound included
#6 - Non MTH locos need to have the MTH card and a flywheel put in them to work on this system
#7 - Converting a non MTH loco can be difficult for a newbie
#8 - To control things like switches and so on I need to add the "AIU" but the basic TIU an REMOTE will control any DCS loco.
#9 - While the hand held remote is "RADIO" controlled the signals are sent via the TIU through the rail
#10 - DCS requires really good track connections and is susceptible to interference

Over all the system sounds fantastic - but if I am paying $300 for a loco and then have to send it off and spend more to have it DCS equipped, that seems like it could get really expensive really fast. 
Especially when I can pretty much go with a DCC system and in essence "plug" the DCC decoder into most any new loco, assign and address and off it goes (so to speak).

As I said in a different post, this (to me) is the reason most "newbie’s" don't jump in to the hobby...
Who wants to buy a "Yugo" when you can get a “Cadillac” but you won't know which one you bought, until you get it home 


Thank you all in advance for your input.









Todd


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Go to Rays site it will answer all your questions.........*[url]www.rayman4449.dynip.com* [/url]


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. yes 
2. yes, and you do have to pay attention to make sure you are seeing the 1:32 stuff 
3. I believe you can get their O scale stuff in 2 or 3 rail... the "G scale" is 1:32 and only in 2 rail. 
4. ProtoSound 2.0 refers to the decoders in the locos, and 2.0 is the major revision of firmware and features. Protosound 3.0 is coming out soon in Large Scale, it's out in their HO stuff. 
5. Yes 
6. yes, and an optical reader that senses a "tachometer strip" on the flywheel. 
7. YES! If there is no flywheel in the loco, you need to machine one and machine the motor shaft, besides the electronics connections. 
8. not sure on the AIU, I think you are right. 
9. yes 
10 yes, and even then, you may need to add noise filters 

DCS has it's pro's and con's, but is a very capable system, roughly comparable to DCC in terms of features. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Thank you both for your response. 
I have Ray's site bookmarked (and Greg's) but as I am just learning and most of the time I am lost









Greg - Can you tell me:
if the optical reader and the flywheel are sold separately or as a unit?
are they (it) hard to install?
Are they costly?
Does MTH make any 1:29?

I noted on Ray's site he charges upwards of $300 to convert to DCS, but that may be mostly parts, etc... and then there is shipping to and from.
That all leads me to think that DCC may be a better option.

Thank you both again.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe the optical reader comes with the "kit", but the flywheel has to either already exist or must be custom made. 

Understand that the flywheel is connected to the motor shaft, so each loco is different, some do not have room. In some conversions, motors have been removed to be replaced with a flywheel. 

A flywheel is just a chunk of metal, and in this case, it's function as a flywheel is purely incidental, it serves as a surface for the optical tachometer strip, alternating regions of light and dark, which are picked up by the optical sensor, and thus can read the rotational speed of the motor. 

Is it costly? Yes, because it has to be custom made if you don't have one already on your loco. You need to machine one with a lathe and then drill and tap a hole in the motor shaft to affix it. Basically if you are asking this question, you CANNOT do it yourself. 

No, MTH is all 1:32 in their "large scale". 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. for all the effort to do the conversion, Ray's prices are VERY reasonable, and he has a great reputation for quality work.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As long as you stay with the MTH equip then your cost are minimal. Don't think you would want to mix 1/29 with the 1/32. Later RJD


----------



## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Todd, 

There are number of features and would suggest checking out the video review I have posted on my site. 
#1 - Correct. Regardless how it's tried to be made out, most control systems are proprietary and don't control each other. DCS engines can operate on straight track power (non digital control) DC or AC. 
#2 - They call the one gauge line 'Railking' but it's really a hybrid between their premier line and railking. The One gauge railking line has more detail than the railking O gauge line. One gauge line has product IDs that start with '70-xxxx-x' 
#3 - MTH has a 2 rail O gauge line as well. G is 2 rail. 
#4 - Protosound 2.0 refers to the sound/control board that goes in the engine. "Protosound 3" which can also be controlled via DCC is out for HO only but coming to O and G. 
#5 - Correct, smoke too #6 - Correct, unless the engine already has a flywheel. USA three axle diesels do, two axles do not, Aristo steamers do, diesels do not. #7 - Yes it can be. If the engine does not already have a flywheel then one has to be added to the drive train in some fashion. And for the avg person that does increase the level of difficulty. if it does have a flywheel then if you are trying to control all the lights, ditch lights etc, then it may not be much more involved than another advanced control system. YMMV Of course you can plug in the DCC board, but you then have to set it up. Do your reading on what’s involved with that. #8 - Yes you need the AIU (costs like $90 and you can daisy chain them to add more AIUs) Allows you to control switch through the remote. #9 - Correct, the remote communicates to the TIU wirelessly and the commands to the engine are then transmitted via the track. Regarding track signaling, I'm running a single 320ft loop of brass track at our new Mall display and with three lights displayed I have perfect 10 communication in all areas. #10 - Sorta but not really on the track connections. I ran with my original 120ft loop of stainless track with simple slider joiners for at least a couple of years before moving to direct to rail clamps and I never had issues with signaling. I finally went to clamps because I found one day that one slider joiner was 'buzzing' and when I touched it it burned my hand. (Was running an 11 car lit passenger train pulling high amps. joiner developed a bad connection and was arcing internally) The only way I knew I was having connection issues was that buzzing. I had perfect 10 signal. After seeing other folks trying to deploy track power layouts using slider joiners (and using brass track) and fighting bad track connections I strongly urge folks to use direct to rail clamps to eliminate this as an issue. It's not because DCS is so much more sensitive to those connection issues, it just ensures they are never a problem. The biggest two impacts to track signaling (which is really what your question is addressing) is linear feet of track and track type. (power supplies do have an impact on this as well) With brass, you can run very long runs with no signal issues, with stainless you will see a bit more variation in signal levels but not bad and they can be mitigated. In the end, your DCS signaling issues will follow a pretty close curve to your overall track power connections. If you have intermittent connections to a section of track then no digital controlled track powered engine is going to run reliably, period. If you try running a 230ft+ oval of stainless track with only one power feeder connection to the oval then on the far side where you see the big voltage drop you will see signaling issues. Follow a few simple rules and it won't be a big deal. If DCS was as bad as some make it out to be no one, including myself would be running it. The truth is it works and if you do end up with an area of reduced signaling as reflected in a track signal check then see my website for how to deal with it. Only times you lose control of your engine is when signaling gets to zero and if you do encounter that, from what has been learned to date it can be mitigated. I should also add that the new TIU prototypes are out and are being beta tested now and they are supposed to be good setup up in boosting track signal levels. 

As far as interference what are you meaning? where the remote won't communicate with the TIU or the engine not getting the command from the TIU? Sounds like been reading some misleading info here and there is a lot of that here on MLS... I have seen in one train show hall where our remote range was greatly reduced. In all the others that I've been in I've never had problems. I don't have issues with interference at home in any shape or fashion. I also have never seen an interferrence issue with communication at the track level. So no, I would say it's not any more susceptible to interference than any other system. If Sprint Wireless parks a mobile cell tower truck out in front of your house then yeah you might have problems. 

#11 – Electronics do get expensive. You can't plug in a DCC card into just any engine. A number of USA trains engines do not have DCC receptacles for the boards so you have to do the same thing as DCS and connect in to the light wires that you want to control manually. I haven’t seen a USA trains diesel engine yet that can accept a DCC board as a direct plug in. So in those cases the only difference is if a flywheel has to be added and mounting the tach reader. So the truth is it depends on the engine and in those cases if you have to pay a train store to install the board prices level out. Aristocraft engines do have the DCC board sockets. Another factor to remember is hardware costs... with DCC the largest boosters out there I’ve seen are 16amp and the one Train-Li sells is $1500. http://www.train-li-usa.com/stor...8.html A single TIU can be run in an unlimited amperage mode (which is how I run mine) and they only cost $150. Just need the power supply. Although a bridgewerks 30amp PS will set you back $500, still cheaper overall and you don’t have to break your ovals into blocks to try and handle the amperage across multiple boosters. So it depends on how many engines you plan to buy, what kinds, etc in order to figure out cost to implement. 


************** 


Ran across this video of a young man who setup the system himself. If a 12 year old can do it… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrUYMwk3il0 


Another interesting feature I’m about to post a video on today is variable smoke unit output for diesels matched to the diesel sound rev increases for real prototypical operation.


Good luck with your decision.

Raymond


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The only thing I'd like to add that there are DCC systems out there that are cheaper and operate just as good as the High dollar ones. It depends on what your needs are and what you want. Just do the home work on either system you choose as they are both good. Later RJD


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Do like me I am a died in the wool QSI/G-wire system guy, and believe there is nothing as good figuring cost effectiveness, and also simplicity too!! Having said that I also have 1 engine that is MTH and the MTH throttle and TIU unit which is the Triplex. Having said that if you want sophistication the MTH is supurb, but the QSI/G-wire is cost effective and simple. I bought the MTh system and 1 engine because I liked the Triplex period!! I may end up with a couple of more MTH things but not sure when they will be at a price I can live with!! Kinda lookin at a Big Boy and or Challenger but for the future. QSI/G-wire is all ya need to know unless your going MTH all the way. And yes Raymann is the guru in MTH so go with the flow. Regal


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 09 Jan 2010 02:04 PM 
Do like me I am a died in the wool QSI/G-wire system guy, and believe there is nothing as good figuring cost effectiveness, and also simplicity too!! Having said that I also have 1 engine that is MTH and the MTH throttle and TIU unit which is the Triplex. Having said that if you want sophistication the MTH is supurb, but the QSI/G-wire is cost effective and simple. I bought the MTh system and 1 engine because I liked the Triplex period!! I may end up with a couple of more MTH things but not sure when they will be at a price I can live with!! Kinda lookin at a Big Boy and or Challenger but for the future. QSI/G-wire is all ya need to know unless your going MTH all the way. And yes Raymann is the guru in MTH so go with the flow. Regal


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 09 Jan 2010 02:17 PM 
Posted By blueregal on 09 Jan 2010 02:04 PM 
Do like me I am a died in the wool QSI/G-wire system guy, and believe there is nothing as good figuring cost effectiveness, and also simplicity too!! Having said that I also have 1 engine that is MTH and the MTH throttle and TIU unit which is the Triplex. Having said that if you want sophistication the MTH is supurb, but the QSI/G-wire is cost effective and simple. I bought the MTh system and 1 engine because I liked the Triplex period!! I may end up with a couple of more MTH things but not sure when they will be at a price I can live with!! Kinda lookin at a Big Boy and or Challenger but for the future. QSI/G-wire is all ya need to know unless your going MTH all the way. And yes Raymann is the guru in MTH so go with the flow. Regal 















Revenge is "SWEET" MY FRIEND, AND KARMA IS THE YOU KNOW WHAT??







BACK AT YA


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 09 Jan 2010 02:04 PM 
Do like me I am a died in the wool QSI/G-wire system guy, and believe there is nothing as good figuring cost effectiveness, and also simplicity too!! Having said that I also have 1 engine that is MTH and the MTH throttle and TIU unit which is the Triplex. Having said that if you want sophistication the MTH is supurb, but the QSI/G-wire is cost effective and simple. I bought the MTh system and 1 engine because I liked the Triplex period!! I may end up with a couple of more MTH things but not sure when they will be at a price I can live with!! Kinda lookin at a Big Boy and or Challenger but for the future. QSI/G-wire is all ya need to know unless your going MTH all the way. And yes Raymann is the guru in MTH so go with the flow. Regal 

Jerry, Just wondering how the QSI Magnum Decoder/G-Wire is more cost effective where the combination cost like $274.66 per engine according to the prices listed on Tony's Train Exchange website whereas the MTH PS2 Upgrade kits cost only $179.95 and if you're a MTH RR Club member you receive an additional 15% discount??

The QSI Magnum will have to be hardwired into say a USA engine just like a MTH PS2 conversion. 

The QSI Programmer cost $89.24 whereas the MTH DCS Consumer Loader Program is free.

I'm not trying to start a flwme war I'm just curious as to how you define cost effective??


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

QSI with the extra radio to run "gwire" (emulating AirWire) is not cheap. It's definitely more per loco than MTH if you are using MTH locos... (of course MTH locos cost more than Aristo and USAT, but they are higher quality in general) 

Running QSI in a normal DCC layout is right now the cheapest per loco (compared to any system with quality sound and quality motor control) 

Cheaper than MTH if using non-MTH engines have to do an expensive installation (custom flywheed and or custom install), 

Cheaper than Aristo because you have to buy a Phoenix board to get sound comparable to MTH or QSI. 

I agree with Chuck on his point, that particular combination is more per loco than MTH provided you have an MTH loco, or can do the installation yourself on another brand that already has a flywheel. 

No flywheel, the conversion to MTH is more expensive. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Well first off Mr. Chuck I only put em into Aristo and I have One that was a install in a non-aristo engine, and its knowing who to buy from and where. I am able to do mine for $216 and have done so within the last month. I have One only MTH engine I use TE and the MTH system with. Oh and the programmer is only $75 QSI one,which I do have one of those, and I have gutted engines and sold off Phoenix and Sierra also to stay with QSI/G-wire, and I don't wish to get into a flamming war this has been discussed and cussed out to death. I'm with QSI/G-wire until something cheaper, better, and less complicated than the PNP from QSI. Nuff Said Regal 

P.S. I assume your a retailer looking to target or shoot down competitors its called research your products and then find the least expensive place to go. I'm totally happy so far. Regal


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jan 2010 03:19 PM 
QSI with the extra radio to run "gwire" (emulating AirWire) is not cheap. It's definitely more per loco than MTH if you are using MTH locos... (of course MTH locos cost more than Aristo and USAT, but they are higher quality in general) 

Running QSI in a normal DCC layout is right now the cheapest per loco (compared to any system with quality sound and quality motor control) 

Cheaper than MTH if using non-MTH engines have to do an expensive installation (custom flywheed and or custom install), 

Cheaper than Aristo because you have to buy a Phoenix board to get sound comparable to MTH or QSI. 

I agree with Chuck on his point, that particular combination is more per loco than MTH provided you have an MTH loco, or can do the installation yourself on another brand that already has a flywheel. 

No flywheel, the conversion to MTH is more expensive. 

Regards, Greg 

Thanks Greg you beat me to the punch!! Regal
Again as I have stated many times I have the best of all the worlds, just ask Nicky eh????? hah LOL


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just trying to look at hard facts and be objective. 

The original poster is a newbie, so it's wise to show the pro's and con's.... total cost not only includes the electronic components, but the labor and the cost of the locos themselves. 

My USAT F units might not be exactly the same quality level as the MTH, but they are good enough for me and cheaper, so when someone is considering the total cost, it's wise to look at all facets. 

I have no interest in one over the other, if my layout had been at waist level, I would have gone all 1:32 and probably been mostly MTH. Would be in hog heaven with all the big locos they have!

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 09 Jan 2010 03:23 PM 
Well first off Mr. Chuck I only put em into Aristo and I have One that was a install in a non-aristo engine, and its knowing who to buy from and where. I am able to do mine for $216 and have done so within the last month. I have One only MTH engine I use TE and the MTH system with. Oh and the programmer is only $75 QSI one,which I do have one of those, and I have gutted engines and sold off Phoenix and Sierra also to stay with QSI/G-wire, and I don't wish to get into a flamming war this has been discussed and cussed out to death. I'm with QSI/G-wire until something cheaper, better, and less complicated than the PNP from QSI. Nuff Said Regal 

P.S. I assume your a retailer looking to target or shoot down competitors its called research your products and then find the least expensive place to go. I'm totally happy so far. Regal Wrll that's fine Mr. Regal but to just throw out a big blanket staement about QSI/G-Wire is more cost effective than any other sound control system out there is really rather misleading in my honest opinion esp. when a newbie is asking questions.

No I'm not a retailer are you a salesman??

See the way I read your original post was that QSI/G-Wire was the most cost effective period. Only after I questioned that statement did you refer to using QSI in a plug-n-play capable Aristo-Craft engine. Again how is a newbie supposed to know the difference or that a plug & play system is even on the market? 

Apperently you didn't read my entire post as I quoted prices from Tony's Train Exchange as after all isn't Tony THE leading QSI ditributor in the USA?? At least I exposed my resources for all my prices and didn't again give some blanket statement such as research your product..Why not disclose your source so the newbie knows where to shop or is that a big secret?

I do know all about QSI decoders as believe it or not I was the first to install QSI into a set of Aristo-Craft SF E('s back in fall of 2007..Check the archives.I used under DCC with Digitrax and under Airwire using the CVP t-1000.

My honest opinion is the most cost effective rr with fiull sounds is either MTH PS2 equipped engines or QSI equipped engines under track power.


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Well at least you remembered the Mr. and Yes I am a salesman! And yes I do share information at times with people who I know or that I am close too! You can research just like i do or as well as I do. Hah I still stand by my statement in all my posts. I think QSI/G-wire is the only way to go with the procab throttle,for simplicity and cost effectiveness, and what is available out there right now. When that changes I will sell off or switch but for now it WORKS for me and after all that is what or who I have to please is me, not thee!! Hee hee and I do run MTH Triplex I do battery Rc and track power. I also use the Te system different ways and I entered the QSI realm over 2 years ago myself, not sure if before you or after doesn't matter. 

Probably time for Nicky to jump in here somewhere?? Where is that guy??


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if we have answered all the questions for Todd? 

Todd, can we add any more or answer any questions? 

I sure don't want this to turn into a "my system is better" brawl. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Bluereagal, Seems to me that the name of this thread is DCS - Questions??? Not which command system is best??? nor is it titled QSI so why the attempt for some to steer it (as usual) into the QSI camp is beyond me..In my honest opinion that is. 

But you're not going to swing me over to QSI/G-Wire is the most cost effective even if you do "have an inside source" for better priceing it stil costs $216.00 per engine whereas MTH PS2 Upgrade kits cost $149.95 per engine and includes all wiring harnesses, lights, hardware, speaker, proto-couplers & a install manuall. I'll share all my resources for anybody who asks me for it whether I know them or not as my agenda is to promote the hobby. Rayman4449's website is full of MTH DCS help and I've contributed to it in small ways..again to promote DCS PS2 and what a far superior command system it is second to none!

As you know the DCS Consumer Loader which is required for downloading sound files & DCS firmware is free. QSI Programmer at your cost is $75.00 and don't forget that when your NCE throttle firmware needs to be updated you have to send it in.

What about setting CV's in the QSI decoder?? I used the free Decoder Pro program but had to pay like $70.00 for the hardware..hardly free!!

Can your QSI equipped engines have complete control over chuff rate, smoke volume & intensity, remote firing couplers?? No but a MTH DCS PS2 equppied engine can!

Can your DCC/QSI equipped engines maintain 80 scale miles per hour track speed with say 15 lighted USA passenger cars for a total draw of say 15 - 20 amps ?? The answer is NO!! MTH DCS PS2 equipped engines can/will do this all day long. I've heard of some folks having problems with QSI decoder equipped engines having problems getting big long trains up to high track speeds and they've been removing the QSI decoders from them?? Is this a QSI problem or a cv problem??

Does QSI have over 2,000 sound sets available online to download into your engines?? MTH has and MTH spends a million dollars a year in R&D for DCS . 

Can your DCC powered layouts put 25 amps of say 30 volts on the rails?? The answer is NO!! MTH DCS can and will run high power all day long!!

Can your DCC layouts operate conventional out of the box engines on the same track as your DCC equipped engines?? The answer is it all depends on whose DCC system you're using and if it can only 1 engine and the ac signal is going to be hard on the motors!! A MTH DCS DC powered layout can & will run conventional AND PS2 equipped engines all day long on the same track!! 

It's funny that folks try to compare MTH PS2 install prices to a DCC install. I for one convert my engines to MTH PS2 DCS for the price of the PS2 upgrade kit so my engines in all actuality are cheaper than you guys that are installing QSI Magnum Decoders. I'm also a machinist and rather enjoy making flywheels for large scale engines. Right now I'm flywheeling 2 AML K4's..one for me & one for a fellow large scaler.

Blueregal, By just doing a mere plug & play into an Aristo-Craft engine do you have all lighting functions available?? The answer is NO the Aristo Plug & Play socket does not support this!! Do you have control of the smoke unit via the remote?? The answer is NO!! How many Aristo-Craft Plug & Play "Ready" engines have you had to change the wiring around on to make it work right?? If you were to charge somebody to do a full install to take advantage of all of the features that the QSI decoders have to offer how much would you charge?? $100.00 to do all the wiring including either adding resistors/swapping out all the lights and figuring out how to drive the smoke unit?? If you did then the price would be $316.00 for a full install...hmm..Seems to me that Rayman4449 will do a full MTH PS2 DCS install into a USA Trains SD70 for something like $330.00 but don't take my word on that, Contact Rayman 4449 for current pricing!!

I suppose that you also run by battery power??


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You said you did not want it to be a DCS vs. QSI (really DCC) thread, but you jumped in and did a page of typing. 

The door is opened. 

The CV setting software (which is NOT NEEDED) but makes it somewhat more convenient, is free, so if you have the programming dongle, it is NO EXTRA COST. 

Setting DCC CV's can be done for free, JMRI is free, and my NCE system comes with a serial port, so a $6 cable hooks them up. 

My system can control chuff parameters and settings to a GREATER degree than DCS... and the QSI has the "drift" feature, fully customizable, which DCS does not. 

You can buy DCC boosters that will put out huge amperage to the rails (but why?), NCE does 10 amp, Zimo 15, Heller 15 and a few others do 20 and 25. 

But one thing that is being downplayed, and I think this needs to be clear to Todd, is that if you have to add a flywheel to a loco that does not have one, you need a LATHE and the ability to MACHINE metal and DRILL the shaft of the motor. 

That installation is WAY MORE INVOLVED AND DIFFICULT. 

So DCS is not the same type of install as a QSI or other DCC decoder, which can be done as simply as with 4 wires (albeit giving up some control of lights). 

Overall, DCS is more expensive per loco... if you convert a non-MTH loco, it costs more, if you buy a MTH loco, they cost more (I will give you that MTH is higher quality than Aristo or USAT or Bachmann, but for many people they are good enough). 

Let's not keep "submerging" the cost of conversion of locos. 

DCS has some great, unique features, but it's not "better" in EVERY way than everything else. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jan 2010 07:24 PM 
You said you did not want it to be a DCS vs. QSI (really DCC) thread, but you jumped in and did a page of typing. 

The door is opened. 

The CV setting software (which is NOT NEEDED) but makes it somewhat more convenient, is free, so if you have the programming dongle, it is NO EXTRA COST. 

Setting DCC CV's can be done for free, JMRI is free, and my NCE system comes with a serial port, so a $6 cable hooks them up. 

My system can control chuff parameters and settings to a GREATER degree than DCS... and the QSI has the "drift" feature, fully customizable, which DCS does not. 

You can buy DCC boosters that will put out huge amperage to the rails (but why?), NCE does 10 amp, Zimo 15, Heller 15 and a few others do 20 and 25. 

But one thing that is being downplayed, and I think this needs to be clear to Todd, is that if you have to add a flywheel to a loco that does not have one, you need a LATHE and the ability to MACHINE metal and DRILL the shaft of the motor. 

That installation is WAY MORE INVOLVED AND DIFFICULT. 

So DCS is not the same type of install as a QSI or other DCC decoder, which can be done as simply as with 4 wires (albeit giving up some control of lights). 

Overall, DCS is more expensive per loco... if you convert a non-MTH loco, it costs more, if you buy a MTH loco, they cost more (I will give you that MTH is higher quality than Aristo or USAT or Bachmann, but for many people they are good enough). 

Let's not keep "submerging" the cost of conversion of locos. 

DCS has some great, unique features, but it's not "better" in EVERY way than everything else. 

Regards, Greg Okay great, Game on









When I was using JMRI it was with a Digitrax DCC setup wich did not have a serial port so the needed hardware cost me like $70.00 and that was called Loco - Buffer or something.

Let's us take a look at setting chuff parameters in DCS..up to 16 chuffs per driver revolutuion setting via the DCS Remote, menu > sound > chuff rate > press thumbwheel > choose any number from 1 - 16 > press thumbwheel.

QSI, Dig out the 253 page QSI Quantum manual and look up Chuff Interval Scale Factor on page 169. I see that it's part of CV56 and that's one of those 2 dimensional deals so let me see if I can remeber how to do that?? Get into CV 56 and enter 12 and wait for the decoder to say TWELVE or was it start with CV29 then enter 56.12 and wait for the thing to talk to me?? Or maybe it was enter cv56.12 then enter say 16 and wait for it to reply? Then again I could always just get into the hexadecimal programming as that is way more fun..hmmm...From the QSI manual.."To calculate the scale factor for a desired number of chuffs per wheel revolution, use the formula Scale Factor = (4 / N) * 32, Where N is the number of chuffs per revolution...Huh?? Thanks but I'll just scroll thru the DCS sounds menu and set it that way as I have a RR to run









Boy, after all that ANY CV setting software would be welcome esp. if I could see it work on my 41" monitor..but now I need to drag my pc & monitor outdoors to the trains just to set the chuff rate??

Why do you wany huge DCC boosters?? How else are we going to run that passenger train that is made up of 2 Aristo - Craft E9's with 15 lighted USA Trains passenger cars in tow that draws 15 - 20 amps?? Can your 10 amp NCE system run it?? Where are these fictational BIG boosters at that you often speak of?? I know that Train-Li sells a big 16 amp booster for $1,495.00..boy you can do a lot of flywheeling for that amount of money!! And still can only run one big long USA Trains passenger consist.

Greg, What is being downplayed about having the need for a flywheel?? Did I not post that I make my own flywheels and do my own machining?? Did Raymond notlist all the engines that have flywheels and those that don't?? Did I not post that I'm flywheeling 2 K4 motors..one for me and one for a fellow largescaler?? Geez, next time I'll post in extra large type so all you old guys can read it









Running new lights with either using DCS or DCC is a real treat so that is really a moot point. 

How many out of the box engines can you operate on your DCC powered layout at the same time as running your DCC engines?

How many levels of smoke output can your QSI Quantum engines produce? We're up to like 5 with the steam engines and 8 with the diesels 

Do you have remote firing anywhere on the layout engine couplers that work with Kadees available with DCC??

How about your DCC buss speed?? I've heard of large DCC layouts that have numerous operators having to wait for commands to be sent out/received because of slow buss speeds?? 

Again this thread is titled DCS - Questions..I didn't drag QSI into it









To me Greg, You are downplaying the very limited power available in a DCC system. Let's see what Raymond has for big train videos operating under DCS..5 Dash-9's pulling a 100' train, a doubleheaded Big Boy consist pulling 100 car train with a Big Boy pusher and on another loop a Hudson pulling 12 Aristo heavyweights with lights all with one MTH DCS Setup that cost $220.00.


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Flame on but without me!!! You and Greg can fight it out, I have more important things to do than flame on I'll let Greg handle it for me!! Hee Hee I'm happy I have both QSi and MTH. Nuff said with me, somehow or another I think you argue over anything posted. Im not against MTH i have both!! Regal


----------



## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry I missed one of your replies, installs price includes the cost of all the parts, Protosound 2 sound and control board/reader/flywheel if needed, everything. 


The cost issue on installing DCS have been addressed before, but I’ll gladly keep posting it: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Comm...127641 - Page 2 

Modifications to add a flywheel to the motor blocks add in my pricing $20-$25 to the cost of the engine. So I guess it’s your judgment as to whether you think $25 is a significant portion of the overall total cost. I’m guessing that you will conclude that it isn’t. If you don’t even know what’s done to get a flywheel in the various motor blocks, I don’t understand how an evaluation can be leveled as to whether or not it’s ‘easy’ or ‘extensive’ relative to what it ends up costing you. Bottom line, to say drive train modifications are driving high conversion costs is not true. Again see page 2 above.

Regarding loss of pulling power, this is a discussion from very long ago and was discussed and tested and results posted. Again, I’m glad to keep posting it. You will not be stalling the motor blocks on the flywheeled Aristocraft 3-axle blocks. I’ve done it and tested it. They do not overheat. They do not lose pulling power. The wheels slip before they stall out. Same goes for any other engine I’ve modified in a similar fashion. 

Despite what information has been provided (or hasn’t) at the end of the day Todd, the onus is on you to do your homework to research the actual costs, figure out what engines have the plug n play and which ones don’t of the engines that you want to buy. Then will need to figure out if you want to really try to install yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. Do you want your engine tricked out, just with sound, sound and digital control or what? The information you need is out there you just have to wade through the threads and piece the overall picture together to decide what is best for you. If you get swayed into a decision one way or the other and you end up regretting it because of factors you weren’t aware of or because something wasn’t what you thought it was, in the end it is YOU who ends up losing, so take your time.

Good luck.


Raymond


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm going to really strive to keep this complete factual, and no emotions (other than the "game on" is kind of fun!)... So I hope I get the same courtesy.

Let's be sure to stick to facts we know, and not guessing.

When I was using JMRI it was with a Digitrax DCC setup wich did not have a serial port so the needed hardware cost me like $70.00 and that was called Loco - Buffer or something.

Well, unlike DCS, where you can only buy ONE brand and type of "master control" (the TIU) from ONE vendor, DCC allows you to buy from MANY vendors. So I am sorry you bought a DCC system that did not have a serial port. Mine does and it was included, and many other makes include the computer interface free. So you don't HAVE to spend the $70, you have many choices of what DCC system to purchase (and of course it is independent of what decoders you use in your locos).

In reference to "chuff setting":

Your answer which tries the old "fear of CVs" technique, misses a fundamental issue. The DCS system, when installed, understands the motor rpm directly. That is a result of all the extra installation of a flywheel, optical tachometer strip, optical reader, AND SETTING UP THE "GEAR RATIO" BETWEEN THE MOTOR RPM AND DRIVER RPM. So in DCS you actually DO the SAME thing as setting it in the DCC decoder, you just do it in the hardware installation.

This is a wash... actually the QSI is more capable, you can change the "gear ratio" between the motor and the drivers while it is running on the track from your throttle. I believe this basic setting in DCS is done in a firmware load, or a special mode. (I could be wrong, please correct me)

So the statement: Boy, after all that ANY CV setting software would be welcome esp. if I could see it work on my 41" monitor..but now I need to drag my pc & monitor outdoors to the trains just to set the chuff rate?? 
Is TOTALLY bogus, you don't need CV setting software (you can change on the rails), A 41" monitor is not required, and you don't need your pc outdoors...

On "big boosters":

You are totally correct, long trains of lighted passenger can take huge amounts of current. There are larger boosters available, but they are expensive, yes, I agree, they cost almost as much as a Bridgewerks supply! HAH! (DCC runs fine from cheap switching supplies)... but back to the point, DCS in passive mode has a really nice advantage. I am modifying my passenger cars to reduce the current. (By the way, an upcoming COMPLETE DCC system, wireless throttle, base station and 15-20 amp booster is coming from Zimo in March, $900).

A mitigating point though: Another reason I am modifying my passenger cars is because I DON'T WANT TO RUN 25 AMPS ON MY RAILS!. When you get a short, especially in a MTH loco, like on a switch, you can melt the track pickup wires... (many examples on the forums)... I want to run the least current I have to through a short, I prefer 10 amps over 25... at 25 amps, you will DEFINITELY cause more damage in a short.

On the flywheels: I did not realize you two were basically doing this service for free... $25 additional to an installation, yes, then for people paying for a conversion from either of you, it's NOT a negative.

But, for anyone who wants to save the installation costs and do it themselves, it's pretty impossible unless they have a lathe, drill press, and taps and are skillful in machining.

The smoke thing is bogus... yes MTH is the only company that makes their own smoke unit... you cannot put down QSI because they don't make their own smoke unit... get one and put it in. By the way, I've seen that while it looks great, several polls over the years show that not many people use smoke on a regular basis.

That said, I love the MTH smoke effects, and they are unequalled anywhere... you just cannot put down QSI or DCC because all decoders do not come in a kit with a smoke unit.

Yes, MTH also makes remote control couplers.... it is really like a grown up, refined Lionel train set. No QSI does not make remote control couplers. Yes, you can run remote control couplers from DCC

How about your DCC buss speed?? I've heard of large DCC layouts that have numerous operators having to wait for commands to be sent out/received because of slow buss speeds?? 

Yes, there are crappy DCC systems that do not work well, just like there are Yugos and Mercedes. Don't buy a Yugo DCC system. In DCC you have a choice, in DCS you have whatever MTH makes and that's it.


Can you MTH system run off the shelf servos? Can you buy 20 different manufacturer's switch machine controllers and have them all work? Can you choose between 10 different companies to get exactly the particular Alco sound you want? No.

I could bring up DCC unique stuff all day that DCS does not do, just like you have pointed out DCS unique stuff that DCC does not do.

*It just needs to be kept in perspective, the original poster asked:*

Over all the system sounds fantastic - but if I am paying $300 for a loco and then have to send it off and spend more to have it DCS equipped, that seems like it could get really expensive really fast. Especially when I can pretty much go with a DCC system and in essence "plug" the DCC decoder into most any new loco, assign and address and off it goes (so to speak).

So, the response is: Yes, it can get really expensive fast, and if you go with a "stock" DCS installation, vs. a QSI plug and play, or even the $17 non plug and play board and you CAN do your QSI installation, what is the choice?

Pay extra for all the cool DCS stuff and custom installations on non MTH locos, or do it yourself, and maybe do more work to get remote control couplers or better smoke, or not have all the DCS features?


It's a decision that takes some thought. 


It's not a slam-bang, hand-down simple answer. There is no "obvious" winner.


Regards, Greg


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Hobbies tend to soak up all excess, and perhaps even all available cash. Its the nature of the beast. So if you like it and can afford it, buy it. 
I dont know (but suspect) that Greg has not a single MTH engines. He does have plenty of experience with DCC. Raymond does actually have non MTH engines but (again, I suspect) has converted them all the DCS system. 

So its pretty much like politics, a two party system. If you have questions on MTH or DCS I would suggest you talk to people who have and run them. (full disclousure: I have 5 MTH locos and 2 TIUs) That would be Raymond. 
If you want info on DCC, ask Greg.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I do not have a DCS loco, my experience is from running them and debugging problems on my friend's layouts. That's where I learned about track polarity, the sometimes hidden polarity switch, linking, passive mode vs. active mode. 

I also read the manuals and even the patents by MTH. 

The items I have addressed are factual, and a lot of the data is actually from the people who are "sparring" with me, hah! 

You do not have to own the product to know something, i.e. I don't need to own the product to understand how an optical tachometer works, or that you need to customize one to fit the diameter of your flywheel, etc. 

Yes, experience is a good teacher, so I do not make extensive comments on DCS low speed performance, or how many minutes of smoke a MTH smoke unit can put out. 

But only asking people who are dyed in the wool proponents may not give you all the answers... I am accused of this in this very thread about DCC... 

That's why I stay factual and objective, and it does not matter if I own any or not if the facts are true... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

First, I think really we need to thank people that spend their good available time answering questions and lending help for free. Greg for one, always seems to be ready to add valuable insight to posts looking for help. An easy reply would be to pick on a poster for commenting on a system that he may not own. They would figure that he therefore does not fully know the system. I appreciate the fact the most people here will post from actual knowledge of these complex systems.
I like the fact that these discussions lead to posts for different brands because there are a lot to choses from. The problem would arise when a new person without much experience would ask for opinions and maybe get one only from whoever was available. They would post on their choice and justify it accordingly. We need to provide all info which can get to be overwelming. This info does not just go to the original poster but maybe used by anyone who reads the post for as long as it survives.
I could add my DCC experiences and the reasons I switched to DCS. I feel they are already being brought to light. Again, I thank all parties for their time doing this. Keep it civil, and only facts which, by the way, seems to be getting much better!


----------



## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Todd, 

You might find these latest conversions interesting.. the latest Bachmann 2-8-0 and USA Trains GP38-2. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr4_mxg7pqo - 2-8-0 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUFTTyBFaYQ - GP38-2 (note the smoke output matched to the diesel rev steps) 


Raymond


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Raymond, I noticed that the last part of the video was no smoke when the loco was moving. Can I assume you left the smoke turned off there? 

Also, maybe this is your trade secret, but did you do anything to the stock smoke units other than tie the motors directly to the DCS control board? 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Ray BOTH those are amazing! I can't believe how much volume your getting from the speakers and the smoke on both units is unbelievable. I still am not thrilled about the difficulty of the fly wheel install etc... but the DCS system is certainly worth any extra expense based on what you show here.
It would be interesting to see is anyone else has anything DCC that compares to these?
I am guessing that all of the lights, smoke, movement, sounds and so on were controlled by the hand held remote that comes with the initial MTH DCS system correct?
I am sure there is a lot of work involved in getting these into the form show in these videos, but i have to say seeing them in action is incredible.

Thank you for sharing.

 Todd


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

It is controlled by the remote, as you said. It would be interesting to see is anyone else has anything DCC that compares to these? 
Not in my experience. Other systems can do some of that but not all of it. Especially when it comes to the syncronized smoke output, there is nothing close. 

Maybe thats why some people like the system so much, and no doubt also why others do not.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would say that overall, the features of sound and synchronized smoke, and other stuff is unmatched in DCS. 

Synchronized puffing is pretty common, but the precise matching of diesel notching is wild, and also you may not have seen the "quillable whistle" where smoke comes out of the whistle when you blow it. 

Yep, it will be a number of years (if it ever happens) that DCC decoder manufacturers will make generic boards with this level of "cooperation" between smoke units and sound systems. 

(John, I do not dislike DCS at all... it's not for me because of certain factors, but I think these things we are discussing are great, and wish I could have them... when protosound III comes to large scale, who knows what I will do?) 

Regards, Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

What greg said--if it wasn't a proprietary system, I'd be on it. I'm looking forward to proto 3


----------

