# Waterproof Mini-Connectors???



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Has anyone come across any_ reasonably-priced_, two pin, mini-connectors that are truely waterprooof for use underwater?

Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Never in my entire career... I have never seen "reasonably priced" and "truly waterproof" in the same sentence on a manufacturers site... 

I used to work for the Gov. and we went out on ships with electronics... nothing related to that was ever inexpensive. 

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

suggestion -edited.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he wants them to be connectors, that can be plugged and unplugged, not a connection sealed over with rubber or silicon. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Feb 2010 08:15 PM 
I think he wants them to be connectors, that can be plugged and unplugged, not a connection sealed over with rubber or silicon. 

Regards, Greg 


Bingo!

These are for my underwater misters for the hot springs. I currently have them soldered and coated with the Liquid Electrical Tape, but want these easily removable. The failure rate on the misters is high and I would like them easily replaceable, with spares at the ready, for when guests come over.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One inexpensive alternative are the 2 pin rubber "trailer connectors" at auto parts stores... they are 2 "bullet" connectors in a rubber housing... it's water resistant, and if you squirt silicon "dielectric" grease into it before assembling, I think it would last a while... this is not really underwater, right? Under water has the additional problem of water pressure forcing water inside. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Feb 2010 09:00 PM 
One inexpensive alternative are the 2 pin rubber "trailer connectors" at auto parts stores... they are 2 "bullet" connectors in a rubber housing... it's water resistant, and if you squirt silicon "dielectric" grease into it before assembling, I think it would last a while... this is not really underwater, right? Under water has the additional problem of water pressure forcing water inside. 

Regards, Greg 

Yes, they would be under water. I have considered the trailer connectors (I use them for all the buildings) but they are a little large to go in the hot tubs and leave room to center the misters and are not truley waterproof. I'm thinking maybe a gold plated minijack/plug.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

how mini do you need ?

these to big ?

http://www.electerm.com/packardweather.html


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I thought of those, pretty large, and water resistant, but not "proof" again... also, you have to not only fill them with silicon in the mating area, but now you need to seal the backside where the wires enter the housing. 

The molded ones I mentioned are sealed on the backside... 

Hmm.... hard to find true waterproof. Todd, what voltage are you running? The trick might be some solid gold connectors, but now the "inexpensive" part is no longer true. 

Regards, Greg 

Update, can't find anything small...

These are about $8 each (plug OR socket) and waterproof *http://search.digikey.co...trong>**

All the other stuff is military, with compressable clamps on the cable, locking construction and as big as your finger.

Maybe you should consider soldering and heat shrinking longer wires and have the plug outside the spa!

Then you could have it under a little cover..

Regards, Greg*


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Tod....Home Depot sells waterproof connector covers in the sprinkler aisle. You can make your own once you understand how they work...but basically, you have a tube filled with wax. You take your connector...whatever you want...and push it into the wax then close the lid on the tube. The ones they sell are 1/2" x 3" in size...but in principle, you can make them smaller with any little tube or box. The wax is the waterproofing agent. They're reuseable too. 

Alternatively, they also sell wax filled wire nuts. I've NOT tried these buried underground (I have with the wax filled tubes...which are waterproof). The beauty of the wax filled wire nuts is that they become the connector. You just jam the wires in and twist.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys.

I want these on a quick disconnect so that I can just unplug the misters and bring them in at the end of the day without dealing with wax, silicone, and the like.

As much as I would like to keep the connectors out of the water, that is just not plausible as the wires come into the reservoir and are sealed to the reservoir from beneath. If the wires came from the top (over the hot tubs) they would certainly stand out. A "stand pipe" could possibly be used to run the wires out to above the waterline, but would be obtrusive.

Also as Greg noted, I have considered the GM "weather packs" but these are water resistant (not water proof), relatively large, and get costly.

We are dealing with 24 vac at 1 amp. I'm thinking maybe a couple gold speaker wire terminal inserts (look like points) that simply push into a couple small copper pipes covered in heat shrink to keep them from shorting together. I really don't think it makes a difference if the connection is wet or not just so the solder joints are sealed and the two are not allowed to come into contact.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I know this is a stupid question, but why do you need to waterproof them? If you use those solid copper/brass Deans connectors, what does it matter if they are bare underwater? I like Mike's idea of the wax, though--why not just heat up some candle wax, pour it into a little bowl, press in the connector and do it that way? By the way, Tod, what are you using for those misters? My wife wants to create a hotsprings on our layout this year so I'm curious what works for you.... 
Keith


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 25 Feb 2010 10:46 AM 
I know this is a stupid question, but why do you need to waterproof them? If you use those solid copper/brass Deans connectors, what does it matter if they are bare underwater? I like Mike's idea of the wax, though--why not just heat up some candle wax, pour it into a little bowl, press in the connector and do it that way? By the way, Tod, what are you using for those misters? My wife wants to create a hotsprings on our layout this year so I'm curious what works for you.... 
Keith 


Thanks Keith. See the post above yours.

We use similar to these. They typically run $10-$25 on the "bay" depending on if you need the transformer or not. In a couple cases (our volcanos) we don't want the changing colors and simply buy the ones with a single red LED pilot light and use our own lighting within the cauldrons. Don't leave them out exposed to the elements. Over time they all leak internally, rust, and corrode!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Tod, great ideas... 

Keith


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 25 Feb 2010 10:46 AM 
Thanks guys.

I want these on a quick disconnect so that I can just unplug the misters and bring them in at the end of the day without dealing with wax, silicone, and the like.

.....


We are dealing with 24 vac at 1 amp. I'm thinking maybe a couple gold speaker wire terminal inserts (look like points) that simply push into a couple small copper pipes covered in heat shrink to keep them from shorting together. I really don't think it makes a difference if the connection is wet or not just so the solder joints are sealed and the two are not allowed to come into contact.

From my perspective, your requirements can be met by almost any water resistant connector...and probably with any tight fitting connector. I don't see where you say the connector is to be IN water. Moist dirt is NOT the same as IN water because dirt does not creep into a water resistant connector...but water can if you leave it there long enough. A day does NOT constitute LONG...and you say you bring these gizmos in every day. Your last sentence is correct...you just need something that connects tightly and you'll be ok IMHO.


I would recommend that you buy a second connector...a dummy...so that when you take the gizmo into the house, you have something to plug into the socket left outdoors. That will keep it clean.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, Todd said: "Yes, they would be under water. " 

Post #7. 

Under water at 24v will definitely cause electrolysis, i.e. eventual destruction of the components... they have to be insulated.. at that voltage, enough current will get through to cause damage. A constant DCC of 24 volts on my track digested all of the wiring on the underside of my Aristo switches, so being underwater would definitely be a problem.

I'm back to my suggestion to run the wires up out of the spa (hidden by something) and use inexpensive connectors under a small box.. 


Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 25 Feb 2010 11:03 AM 
I don't see where you say the connector is to be IN water. Moist dirt is NOT the same as IN water because dirt does not creep into a water resistant connector...but water can if you leave it there long enough. A day does NOT constitute LONG...and you say you bring these gizmos in every day. Your last sentence is correct...you just need something that connects tightly and you'll be ok IMHO.


I would recommend that you buy a second connector...a dummy...so that when you take the gizmo into the house, you have something to plug into the socket left outdoors. That will keep it clean. 






Yes, as I said, in the water. Thanks.

Todd


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Oops...I'll retract my last then. I guess what we have here that hasn't been described is a bowl (the bath) that is filled with water in which there is a gizmo that makes mist that has it's power fed by a wire that goes THROUGH the bowl. The connector desired is one that connects the mister to the thru-bowl power feed...underwater. 

If that's the case, I'd definitely go with a plug ON the mister wires...and a fixed socket in the "bowl" that the connector plugged into. That fixed socket would be in a small open ended plastic box..filled with wax or grease...say a 1" x 1" x 1/2" plastic box...that was glued to the bowl with the socket for the plug inside. The little box is there just to contain the wax/grease and to keep dirt out.


Alternatively, if you're up to "greasing the connector" every time you plug in...you can use almost any tight fitting connector. In the shop, just squirt some grease into the connector on the mister...and take it outside and plug her in. For this kind of hook up I'd be looking a connectors that have two pins inside a cylindrical connector body.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Todd, 
I suggest gold plated RCA jacks. Greg mentioned electrolysis, but not shorting, so the gold should (I think, don't know) prevent his concern. Just keep them clean so they don't get scratched. 
You can get them in molded cables to protect the wires. 
John


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 25 Feb 2010 11:29 AM 
Oops...I'll retract my last then. I guess what we have here that hasn't been described is a bowl (the bath) that is filled with water in which there is a gizmo that makes mist that has it's power fed by a wire that goes THROUGH the bowl. The connector desired is one that connects the mister to the thru-bowl power feed...underwater. 

If that's the case, I'd definitely go with a plug ON the mister wires...and a fixed socket in the "bowl" that the connector plugged into. That fixed socket would be in a small open ended plastic box..filled with wax or grease...say a 1" x 1" x 1/2" plastic box...that was glued to the bowl with the socket for the plug inside. The little box is there just to contain the wax/grease and to keep dirt out.





Very little room "in the bowl" and not enough for a box.
Thanks.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 25 Feb 2010 11:33 AM 
Todd, 
I suggest gold plated RCA jacks. Greg mentioned electrolysis, but not shorting, so the gold should (I think, don't know) prevent his concern. Just keep them clean so they don't get scratched. 
You can get them in molded cables to protect the wires. 
John 

This is the direction I was leaning, but even the RCA jacks and plugs are a little large. Hence, I was thinking of the gold minijacks used on Ipods and the like or the gold plated "insertion points" used on speaker terminals.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Only problem with phono jacks (iPod???) is they can short when plugging them in, I remember head phones popping... 
I don't know which jacks you are thinking about... I had picked up some phono jacks for a batteryline between a bat car and tender, but have seen too much blue smoke already, I've gone to battery/charger jacks/plugs but didn't see them in gold, wasn't looking either.... a center pin and a tube for the outer. The male half hides in a 3/16th hose easily without the molded plastic sleeve, I used shrink tubing instead, but the plug is bulky, those are in the tender/batcar. 

Radio Shack Panel Mount Size N, Coaxial Power Jack #274-1583 and DC Power Plug. #274-1573. In case you need a look. 

I think it's time to make the leads long enough to plug into a 'side of the tub' connector and hide the outside junk under some steps...or a mini bar. Seal the plug to the tub. Extend them at the bench when you add the connectors, buy cables and splice if time is worth more than money.... 

Quick Robin! To the batcar! Zowie!!! lol 

By the way, I forgot to say; I really like the effect you've created and now we will all want one! I s'pose it's dry ice for me! lol

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gold plate will go bye bye really quickly, that plating is way thinner than you realize... I think you need to stay out of the water... solid gold will work pretty well though... ha ha! 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the amount of corrosion would be minor--I think these are all you need: 

http://www.wsdeans.com/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm giving up... I don't think anyone on this thread has ever immersed a live circuit in water at 24v with no waterproofing... 

I give it one month in the water turned on 50% of the time. (remember that one connector is got to live in the water "forever", only the one attached to the fog generator is leaving the water. 

I'm the only person so far that has had 24v ac on his rails 24/7 (did for a couple of years), and I live in so cal, where it is pretty dry, but the tracks got watered, and it ate all the wiring under my Aristo switches. 

24v is pretty high, and with a very small separation of the connector blades, and the fact that the water has to be fairly ionic (since we have dissolved metal salts in our water), it has got to be a problem. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. electrolysis is not corrosion, it's migration of metal ions... that HAS to happen if current flows...


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, isn't this similar to having snow on the tracks? Maybe your problem with the Aristo switches has more to do with conductive aggregate? 
I'm sure it will experience some electrolysis, but I think it will be like cleaning brass track: it's thick and will take a long time to disappear. Those connectors are cheap... 

Keith


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah that gold is flash plated thin...

Gold tubing can be re-used and might be worth the cost.

Hmmm how many pairs do you need? 

Greg, is 14K pure enough? 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Aw don't give up, Mr. Happy Snowman. 
I've admitted above that my part is speculation not knowledge. I was hoping that 24v in water was benign... have since been ellucidated, thank you. 
What if gold tubing were attached to the tub and gold plated pins inserted? How much seperation is required? 

John


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 25 Feb 2010 02:43 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Feb 2010 12:44 PM 

I give it one month in the water turned on 50% of the time. (remember that one connector is got to live in the water "forever", only the one attached to the fog generator is leaving the water. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. electrolysis is not corrosion, it's migration of metal ions... that HAS to happen if current flows... 





If easily removable, the misters would be brought in at the end of the day/weekend. Currently, they are toweled dry and placed in plastic bags remaining inplace. But obviously with cords, the bags are not "sealed."


The water is evacuated from the hot tubs and they are covered so they do not accumulate standing water when not in use. The long-term concern of the plugs would be moisture that accumulates in the tubs, and not standing water. The plugs are only submerged when the misters are in operation. Recognize that the water is vibrating at 14KHz when the misters are in operation.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I gave all the scientific points... if it can happen to my track, it most definitely will happen submersed in water... 

I already covered the conductivity of the water in a previous post 

I hope it's clear that the voltages are the same 

I mentioned, but maybe it did not hit home, the distance between my rails is WAY larger than the spacing of the contacts in the connectors. (more current flow on these smaller connectors) 

You just HAVE to have current flow with that voltage and that separation, and anything other than triple distilled distilled water... it only takes a tiny bit of anything to ionize water to make it conductive "enough" 

any metal in water will "migrate" under the influence of voltage potention... so gold will not corrode... but it will "migrate" and go from plus to minus if DC... if AC, it usually does something weird like redistribute and erode in places and build up in others. 

(remember, current and metal and liquid is how the plating process works in the first place)... 

so for this to be a reasonable solution, it needs to not corrode and not conduct electricity... it's just not happening with the laws of physics on planet earth. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Feb 2010 03:03 PM 
I gave all the scientific points... if it can happen to my track, it most definitely will happen submersed in water... 

I already covered the conductivity of the water in a previous post 

I hope it's clear that the voltages are the same 

I mentioned, but maybe it did not hit home, the distance between my rails is WAY larger than the spacing of the contacts in the connectors. (more current flow on these smaller connectors) 

You just HAVE to have current flow with that voltage and that separation, and anything other than triple distilled distilled water... it only takes a tiny bit of anything to ionize water to make it conductive "enough" 

any metal in water will "migrate" under the influence of voltage potention... so gold will not corrode... but it will "migrate" and go from plus to minus if DC... if AC, it usually does something weird like redistribute and erode in places and build up in others. 

(remember, current and metal and liquid is how the plating process works in the first place)... 

so for this to be a reasonable solution, it needs to not corrode and not conduct electricity... it's just not happening with the laws of physics on planet earth. 

Regards, Greg 





*It's just not happening with the laws of physics on planet earth.* 
You must be right as the law is the law. But somebody ought to tell these connectors and this water because I think they must be made out of bumble bees!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you get bubbles? That's what I would expect. Physics and chemistry would tell you that you are getting electrolysis.

Regards, Greg


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## sandbarn (Feb 13, 2010)

Todd, 
I'm not sure I understand your requirement correctly but I found these connectors at batteryspace.com. They say they're water-proof. 

http://www.batteryspace.com/powerizer2pindwater-prooflockableconnector.aspx 

They're $6.95, is that cheap enough? 

Lloyd


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By sandbarn on 25 Feb 2010 09:10 PM 
Todd, 
I'm not sure I understand your requirement correctly but I found these connectors at batteryspace.com. They say they're water-proof. 

http://www.batteryspace.com/powerizer2pindwater-prooflockableconnector.aspx 

They're $6.95, is that cheap enough? 

Lloyd 

Though a bit pricey, those look nice and like they could do the job. If they are used for diving lights under pressure in salt water, they should be fine. I didn't see the size of the connectors listed. Guess I'll have to get hold of them if my regular trailer connector (currently under extended testing) fails prematurely.

Thanks


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Feb 2010 07:13 PM 
Did you get bubbles? That's what I would expect. Physics and chemistry would tell you that you are getting electrolysis.

Regards, Greg 


No.

No apparent bubbles from the connector or adhering to its surface next to the prongs. What you are seeing is all from the mister.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got it, was wondering reference to bees... it buzzes? 

Figured the mister would be a piezo ultrasonic goodie. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Feb 2010 10:37 PM 
Got it, was wondering reference to bees... it buzzes? 



Greg 

Come on..., really? 

From Wikipedia:

Bumble Bee Flight 

According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beats per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists "proving" it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own ignorance".[26]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Couldn't really make the details of the picture... I must be missing something... oh, ok got it, bumble bees don't follow rules of physics.. I heard that... not true of course... but now I get you... 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Re: Laws of Aerodynamics...Good one Todd. 

And that last connector...the $6.95 one...is the "two pins in a cylindrical connector body" I was talking about earlier...cept you want to squirt some grease in there every now and then. That is a GOOD connector for repeated use. The grease helps with waterproofness and ease of pulling them apart.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The test rig

After letting the _underwater _trailer connector operate the mister for the better part of the evening, I decided that there was no use taxing the mister (and keep refilling it's water), when the test could be just as easily performed with a couple light bulbs.

A test rig was set up with two 14 volt bulbs in series powered by the 24 vac transformer used for the misters. The connector was placed under water and unplugged as far as possible while keeping the connection. I figured this exposes most of the metal's surface to the water and serves as a worst-case scenario.









Approximately 17 hours later, there _a very minor amount_ of electrolysis (bubbling) occuring. However, based on operating these units for 6 hr/day, ~12 days per year, this is probably acceptable and providing that water doesn't get in under the rubber to the crimped connections, should provide years of service.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... good deal, squirt that silicon grease into them and close them up. 

There might be some corrosion too, which will occur without power applied, but I think it's within a reasonable expectation of a lifetime for these. 

The metal itself in water will probably create some weak galvanic action. 

The components seem to be tin-plated copper... tin should be ok for a while... 

Regards, Greg


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