# Where to buy endmills?



## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

I had purchased some cheap endmills from LMS, etc. They work fine for non-ferrous metals, but on ferrous they are getting dull quickly. It's probably because of how I'm using them and my general newby-ness.







I'm also assuming that these things are next to impossible to resharpen? So I would like to purchase some better quality ones but the prices I have seen have been way out of my price range ($25 for 1/4" endmill ?!?). Does anyone have a preferred place to buy theirs? I would like to keep the price down to around $6 to 8$ for each endmill (the cheap ones I bought were around $3 to 4$ each). I just don't want to spend a lot of money on a nice endmill and have it destroyed a couple of seconds after I get it.







Thanks,

Jason


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 14 Apr 2011 02:08 PM 
I had purchased some cheap endmills from LMS, etc. They work fine for non-ferrous metals, but on ferrous they are getting dull quickly. It's probably because of how I'm using them and my general newby-ness.







I'm also assuming that these things are next to impossible to resharpen? So I would like to purchase some better quality ones but the prices I have seen have been way out of my price range ($25 for 1/4" endmill ?!?). Does anyone have a preferred place to buy theirs? I would like to keep the price down to around $6 to 8$ for each endmill (the cheap ones I bought were around $3 to 4$ each). I just don't want to spend a lot of money on a nice endmill and have it destroyed a couple of seconds after I get it.







Thanks,

Jason 


Jason,

As with all things, you get what you pay for in end mills. I will assume you are talking about "high-speed" cutters, as opposed to carbide. I was a die sinker for over forty years, making impression dies for the forging industry. End mills are NOT impossible to re-sharpen, but it does take many years to acquire the skills to do it. Even brand new cutters will eventually become dull and if you continue to use them dull, they WILL break! The size of the end mill will dictate price. What sizes will you be using? Well known and good brands will cost in the neighborhood of $20-$30 for .250 diameter. Plus or minus. I can understand why you had problems with cutters priced at the $3-$4 range. Cutters in the $6-$8 range will work so-so, but you have to be very careful about speeds and feeds and depth of cut. I really need more information from you about the material you are cutting and the mill you are using. If I can be of any further assistance, let me know. Good luck,


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Gary,

I use a Grizzly mini-mill 8689 and the end mill sizes range from 1/8" to 1/2" with 3/8" shanks. I was able to cut some 1018 fairly easy although I noticed that the mill were getting dull after I did the cuts. On my other thread about the fancy fly-cutters I tried to cut a "soft" arbor I purchased from LMS and completely failed, with destroyed end mills as proof.







I do not know what kind of metal it is made from though, I guess you could assume it is some often used typical hardened steel (HSS?). Now that I'm doing more of this I really need to get up to speed on how to use end mill correctly. If you need more information, please ask. Thanks again for your help.


Jason


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 14 Apr 2011 03:58 PM 
Thanks Gary,

I use a Grizzly mini-mill 8689 and the end mill sizes range from 1/8" to 1/2" with 3/8" shanks. I was able to cut some 1018 fairly easy although I noticed that the mill were getting dull after I did the cuts. On my other thread about the fancy fly-cutters I tried to cut a "soft" arbor I purchased from LMS and completely failed, with destroyed end mills as proof.







I do not know what kind of metal it is made from though, I guess you could assume it is some often used typical hardened steel (HSS?). Now that I'm doing more of this I really need to get up to speed on how to use end mill correctly. If you need more information, please ask. Thanks again for your help.


Jason 



1018 should be pretty easy to cut on your Grizzly. I looked it up on my computer and you should be able to cut very nicely as long as you set your speeds correctly. I have a Enco mill with a 8X30 inch table, no feeds and I built my Gene Allen Ten-wheeler 1.5" live steamer with it. How many flutes are on the cutters you are getting-2. 3 or 4 flutes? I found that cutting steels on my mill, that you need a way to keep the chips away from the cutter. "Recutting" the chips will dull a cutter quickly. Small amount of air blowing on the cutter to keep the chips away from the flutes will definitely be an improvement.

1/8 cutter diameter on 1018 steel, should be run around 150 to 175 rpm. ALWAYS start at a LOWER speed and then increase the rpm once you see how it is cutting. If you start too fast, your cutter is already history. McMaster-Carr is a great company to purchase cutters from. 

Get yourself a little book from a tool supply house to help you with figuring your cutter speed.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Ah, thanks Gary,

I think I'm starting to understand where the problem is. I'm probably running the mills at too high of speed, it's hard to determine the speed with just the dial. Also, although I have been using oil to lub and cool the mills, I have not been keeping the chips away from the cutting area. The oil tends to clump the chips and makes them stick anyway. So would using more (or different) coolant be better to help wash the chips away? I don't really have a way of doing some kind of air system. Is there a speed limit on the low end where it is too slow, or can I start at some rpm that works for most end mill sizes? I have both 2 and 4 fluted end mills. I will try McMaster-Carr, I was looking as MSC, etc and they were just too expensive. Until I get better at this I would like to keep to the cheap mills and then go with the better ones once I get this figured out. Thanks again,


Jason


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*Sherline* sells a set of 6 end mills - 1/8, 5/32, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8. All are 3/8 shank double-ended and center-cutting. The sets are available in 2 flute (Sherline P/N 7400 and 4 flute (P/N 7401). Each set if $50.00. They are also available separately for $9.00 each.

*MSC Direct* (formerly Rutland Tool) also sells all kinds of end mills. I've used both suppliers and both are good outfits with excellent service.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Dwight,

I have heard some bad things about double-ended mills, would they work ok with the 3/8" mt3 collet I use? I just checked McMaster-Carr and the HSS and the Colbalt end mills were the same price ($12). Would going with the Colbalt mills help any and be a bit more forgiving for a newby like me?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 14 Apr 2011 04:42 PM 
Ah, thanks Gary,

I think I'm starting to understand where the problem is. I'm probably running the mills at too high of speed, it's hard to determine the speed with just the dial. Also, although I have been using oil to lub and cool the mills, I have not been keeping the chips away from the cutting area. The oil tends to clump the chips and makes them stick anyway. So would using more (or different) coolant be better to help wash the chips away? I don't really have a way of doing some kind of air system. Is there a speed limit on the low end where it is too slow, or can I start at some rpm that works for most end mill sizes? I have both 2 and 4 fluted end mills. I will try McMaster-Carr, I was looking as MSC, etc and they were just too expensive. Until I get better at this I would like to keep to the cheap mills and then go with the better ones once I get this figured out. Thanks again,


Jason 



Too high of a cutter speed is the usual culprit when you are a newby at this. I spent so many years cutting steels, that I could just LOOK at a cutter and see if it looked like a good speed. After a while, I never bothered to look at the speed. During my career, I ran anything from Bridgeports to Cincinnati Hydrotels-some with 48 inch by 120 inch table and larger. But the same rules still hold for very small cutters (I ran some as small as .015 diameter in a Haas CNC mill to 4 inch diameter, in the hydrotels.

You might be having your cutters dull BECAUSE you are using oil. I always cut steel at home on the Enco mill without oil. The oil is not going to cool the cutter, only ruin the cutting edge on your cutter. If you don't have access to air on your mill, then use a small old paint brush to keep the chips away from the cutter. That can be a PITA, that's why I always used air.

I am going in for surgery tomorrow morning at 5 a.m. and be in the hospital for couple of days. So if I don't to get back to you right away, that's why. 

Good luck.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Gary, 

And good luck with the surgery, I hope it goes very smoothly! 

Jason


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I have heard some bad things about double-ended mills, would they work ok with the 3/8" mt3 collet I use?I don't know why they wouldn't. I've used both double-ended and single-ended and I've never seen any difference. Double-ended end mills have a central shank for the collet to grab onto. Just make sure you insert the mill far enough into the collet so it's gripping the shank. Personally, I prefer double-ended - twice the cutter in the same space.  I also prefer center-cutting mills as they are more versatile (imho). 

Garry - good luck with the surgery and wishing you a full and speedy recovery.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

As Gary said, 150-175 RPM on steel. I know the machinists manuals say what speeds to use, but I think those speeds are too high for our hobby machines. Slow it down and use oil. Make sure the gibs on the mill slides are tight. Clamp the work directly to the table. 


I've tried mills from several industrial suppliers, I think McMaster-Carr has the best overall


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 14 Apr 2011 05:04 PM 
Thanks Dwight,

I have heard some bad things about double-ended mills, would they work ok with the 3/8" mt3 collet I use? I just checked McMaster-Carr and the HSS and the Colbalt end mills were the same price ($12). Would going with the Colbalt mills help any and be a bit more forgiving for a newby like me? 



I have heard the same thing about double-ended mills. When the people espousing this are pressed for a good reason why, they respond with variations of the following:

1) The upper end is not solid in the holder and can setup a vibration that will spoil the smoothness of the cut.

2) They are always a cheap mill and not as good as single-ended.

3) You might get confused as to which end has been used and which end is still sharp and thus spoil a cut using the dull end.

I think they are all lame excuses.

1) I can't believe that a 1-inch long piece of steel (or solid carbide in the case of what I have), spinning concentric to the spindle could cause a vibration that would affect the other end of the bit such that the smoothness of the cut would be noticeably affected. Even if there was some point where the bit could reach some resonant frequency with the rest of the mill, any slight change in the speed of the spindle or feed rate would upset the resonance and negate the effect.

2) Anything can be made cheaply or not. Just because some might be cheap, well... So are some single-ended mills. Buy quality and you won't be dissappointed in the tools capability... though, like me, through lack of skill you might be dissappointed in the result, but that is not the fault of the price of the tool!

3) If you cannot inspect the bit for damage before use or lack the practiced eye for seeing sharpness, you could always use some permanent ink (Dykem?) to mark the end last used and use the other end the next time... And when both ends are marked, assume the bit is dull on both ends.


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, 

You might want to check out MSC Direct. They are an industrial supply house and run sales on a regular basis. 

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm 

Mike


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I bought some end mills from McMaster-Carr and they shipped them too me via USPS. To Alaska UPS and FexEx are literally 3 to 4 times as expensive, so I'm happy. I was able to finally cut the arbor, but I did chip a couple of teeth on the mill. Any way of mitigating that? I might of been because of the material that the arbor is made from too I guess? I will give the full details in my fly cutting thread. 

Bob, Gary talked about not using oil at all but cutting the steel dry? I did cut the arbor dry and it appeared to work ok, but maybe the broken teeth are because of no oil? A bit confused.  Thanks again. 

Jason


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

You have to use coolant. Endmills that get hot dull out fast. If you are using HSS use a good brand. like Weldon, Fastcut, Nachi, etc For carbide Imco, Garr, etc Chinese tooling is not a good buy. You get what you pay for. I was a cutter tool salesman for 13 years.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Robby, 

What coolant do you recommend? I can't afford the really nice end-mills, the ones I bought through McMaster-Carr were made by Niagara Cutter which appears to be a US based company. I have a feeling that the teeth broke because I didn't remove the scale from the arbor after I heat treated it. Scale is very tough stuff, kind of like the skin on cast iron. I didn't notice the end mill getting hot when I was cutting and it didn't start bogging down like my other one? These new end-mills are cobalt ones that I thought would be a little tougher then my other ones. Can you chip teeth on mills if you don't move the table evenly? For instance if you go too fast or change speed during the cut? 

Jason


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## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

When cutting steel, you need to flood the mill with a coolant called soluble oil. The purpose is to keep the mill cool, so a constant flow of coolant is required, not just a few drops now and then. You also were trying to machine a part that was heat treated. The metal is too hard to machine. ou should do all your machining before heat treating. You should feed the mill at a constant speed and not try to take too big a cut. Two flute cutters are better because they have more chip clearance. Use four flute cutters for a finer finish. Expensive American made cutters will always be better, but cost has to be considered. I buy high quality American cutters in the small sizes (


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 01 May 2011 05:38 PM 
Thanks everyone. I bought some end mills from McMaster-Carr and they shipped them too me via USPS. To Alaska UPS and FexEx are literally 3 to 4 times as expensive, so I'm happy. I was able to finally cut the arbor, but I did chip a couple of teeth on the mill. Any way of mitigating that? I might of been because of the material that the arbor is made from too I guess? I will give the full details in my fly cutting thread. 

Bob, Gary talked about not using oil at all but cutting the steel dry? I did cut the arbor dry and it appeared to work ok, but maybe the broken teeth are because of no oil? A bit confused.  Thanks again. 

Jason 
It depends on the steel, there are so many allows. "Free machining" (alloy 12L14) is usually OK to cut dry. Other carbon steels are not so easy to cut dry and will tend to over heat. Oil helps cooling, but more importantly it lubricates. Using oil never hurts. 

You have to keep the speeds slow, take light cuts and feed slowly. Practice, practice, practice.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Another thing to look at is how you hold the work piece. On a little 8698 you should clamp the work directly to the table and skip the vice. Get the head close to the table to eliminate flexing in the column. Tighten the jibs on the slides. Get the head and column locked tight. Make sure the machine is bolted securely to the bench. Eliminate as many points that can cause chatter, or vibration. If it chatters, you are taking too big a cut or going too fast. Too much chatter and the bit will chip right away. With a 3/8" endmill on that machine, 0.010" or 0.015" depth of cut may be all you get.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Ron, I don't have the setup for cooling like that.









Thanks Bob, Please take a look at my other thread, I have pictures of how I setup the arbor on the mill to cut it.  I would be very interested in your thoughts on how I did it. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/24/aft/119831/afv/topic/Default.aspx

I was able to do it and I went reeeaally slow.







I'm still thinking it may have been the scale on the surface of the arbor from when I heated it to soften it up. Every time the end mill cut on the sides it "pinged". That can't be a good thing I'm guessing. 


Jason


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

BTW Jason, on a related thread (now long gone), we were talking about routing wood in an end mill. I said I'd had poor results. I've since had far better results. The trick seems to be using an actual router bit as opposed to an end mill. RPMs seem to matter far less than I thought, and using the correct cutter seems to be the prime factor.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Grimm on 10 Jun 2011 07:53 PM 
Thanks Ron, I don't have the setup for cooling like that.









Thanks Bob, Please take a look at my other thread, I have pictures of how I setup the arbor on the mill to cut it. I would be very interested in your thoughts on how I did it. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/24/aft/119831/afv/topic/Default.aspx

I was able to do it and I went reeeaally slow.







I'm still thinking it may have been the scale on the surface of the arbor from when I heated it to soften it up. Every time the end mill cut on the sides it "pinged". That can't be a good thing I'm guessing. 


Jason 


That's the way to go. You can actually clamp that kind of round stock directly to the table. Those kind of clamp are very powerful. Nothing will budge under them.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 10 Jun 2011 09:25 PM 
BTW Jason, on a related thread (now long gone), we were talking about routing wood in an end mill. I said I'd had poor results. I've since had far better results. The trick seems to be using an actual router bit as opposed to an end mill. RPMs seem to matter far less than I thought, and using the correct cutter seems to be the prime factor. 
Thanks Dwight! That is great news. I'm getting some good results from my experiments as well but it's not ready yet. I'm having trouble shaping the cutters when they are that small. I think I need to invest in some very small diamond files, if indeed they come in very small sizes.







Where did you pick up your router bits? I have searched but none of the bits I find are small enough. 

Here is the thread you are thinking about:

cutting fancy edges


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By xo18thfa on 11 Jun 2011 03:20 PM 
Posted By Grimm on 10 Jun 2011 07:53 PM 
Thanks Ron, I don't have the setup for cooling like that.









Thanks Bob, Please take a look at my other thread, I have pictures of how I setup the arbor on the mill to cut it. I would be very interested in your thoughts on how I did it. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/24/aft/119831/afv/topic/Default.aspx

I was able to do it and I went reeeaally slow.







I'm still thinking it may have been the scale on the surface of the arbor from when I heated it to soften it up. Every time the end mill cut on the sides it "pinged". That can't be a good thing I'm guessing. 


Jason 


That's the way to go. You can actually clamp that kind of round stock directly to the table. Those kind of clamp are very powerful. Nothing will budge under them. 
Thanks







At least I know that something good has seeped into my brain.


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