# Considering upgrading/changing operationg control



## ketchamr (Jan 10, 2011)

My apologies for pestering everyone like this, and I'm sure questions similar to mine have been discussed before -- I tried looking through the archives but couldn't find anything quite was I'm wondering, though, so I thought I'd finally ask my first question on this amazing resource...

My family originally built our garden railroad in 1994, with some upgrades and expansions in 1995. It's about 435 feet, mainly single-track operation but was built to stress fairly complex operations -- it is basically two large loops, which share a single-track main and loop around one-another with a main-line diamond just to make things more challenging. It also has a classification yards, operated independent of the rest of the line, using DC power. In a nutshell, it's the type of line that you *could* just run a single train on and let it go, but to really get the most out of it, you can run 3-5 trains, constantly monitoring them for meets at our various junctions and the diamond.


Because of this complexity, we quickly found that trying to operate everything using traditional DC block control was nigh impossible, so we were convinced to invest in the LGB MTS, again around 1995 (with the exception, as I noted, that the classification yards is kept completely independent of everything else, with an independent yardmaster using DC control and two tracks able to switch between the DCC and DC depending on whether the yardmaster or dispatcher is controlling them). Our power source is the LGB "Jumbo" transformer, which we leave at full throttle.


Our experience with the MTS hasn't been bad, but in my opinion, also hasn't been great. For the few LGB locos we have with decoders installed, it works fairly well -- and I greatly appreciate having the one analog channel. But, us not being a very wealthy family, most of our locos are non-LGB -- mostly Aristo and a few Bachmann. Since the price of MTS decoders seems rather high and since pretty much all my knowledge is limited to traditional DC block control, we've been limited to running just one non-LGB-decoder-equipped train on the analog channel. I once tried asking an LGBoA rep whether the MTS Type I (which is what I'm guessing we have, considering its age) was NMRA compatible, so that we could install Digitraxx or other decoders in other locos, but I didn't get any firm reply -- from what it sounds like, the system we have was so early (and LGB seems so proprietary) that I'd highly doubt it's NMRA compatible. Plus, the amperage limitation can get annoying -- trying to run an Aristo A-B-A set on the analog channel is near impossible.


So to finally get to the point, I've started to consider upgrading or changing our operating system, if costs allow. I know some folks like battery power, and the prospect of not cleaning track is appealing, but I'm still a bit wary of it -- maybe just too tied into years of track-power, from my HO and N pikes int he basement, etc. And again, while I wish I could use DC block control as that's all I really know, it would basically mean non-stop work for the dispatcher (who already has a tendency to get distracted talking to folks and let trains collide at our junctions!). So I'm wondering if any of you might have any thoughts on any of the following:

-- Would you know if the MTS Type I (which again I'm presuming is what we have, since it's from '95) is NMRA compatible? We're really not looking for anything fancy -- I don't care so much about sound or the like, just a way to control the trains and not have to pay through the nose for decoders. So if other decoders would work, maybe we could keep this system .


-- Otherwise, would the newer MTS (I guess it's now Type III?) be both NMRA compatible to read other brand decoders, and still able to read the decoders already installed?

-- Or, is there another -- ideally not-too-pricey and fairly basic -- control system that we should consider, ideally one that would be able to read decoders from several companies and able to read the LGB ones already installed? I've heard that Digitraxx has a good system, and from modeling in smaller scales know that it's a good name, but am not familiar with it for large-scale. And, I'll admit I'm still confused as to just what Aristo's Train Engineer system is -- at first, I thought it was just a DC block-control thing, but now I've heard you can get 'receivers" that basically act the same as decoders... Again, I'm not necessarily looking for anything too fancy -- I like still controlling switches through the switchboxes we've had for years (something I can actually understand!), and sound and other "bells and whistles" aren't all that important for us -- we just want to find the best way to operate our pike realistically as a dispatcher, but not go too crazy constantly switching blocks!


Again, my apologies for this inconvenience to y'all, as I'm sure some of these questions have been raised before. But being a novice at DCC and finally starting to wonder whether our '95 system has had a good run but is maybe time to upgrade, I figured y'all would have much greater insight than I!

Thanks,
Robbie


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I can't answer your question about MTS. But if you install a good DCC system, you can add a Decoder to a train for around $50 if you don't want sound. I just put a Digitrax DG583AR in a loco, and it just drops into the aristo lighting socket. I use the NCE 10 amp DCC system and have been very happy with it 

You can also control switches--Train-li sells an excellent DCC switch motor which lets you operate switches from the throttle. And you can automate throwing multiple switches, so one command throws say four switches 

The Aristo REVO puts a wireless receiver in each loco, so you can run them independently of each other. It will work on straight DC--you put constant voltage on the rails. My sense, from following discussions of the Aristo REVO, is that it will work on DC, but it's really designed for battery--to make it work well on DC, you need to install a 5-6 inch board with big capacitors on it. It works, but it's a little kludgy


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

I started with MTS II (Non-P) and switched to Lenz for 10 amp power and NMRA capability.


Replaced Lenz with the NCE 10 amp radio set this summer due to the friendly cab and price/feature value.


My NCE DCC set has successfully controlled LGB (Massoth), Digitrax, QSI, ESU, and Zimo. NCE will not allow analog (0 address) control though.


If sound is not important then the Digitrax 5 amp decoders have worked for me and are priced right.


I have not tapped into all the DCC features yet but glad they are available. I also run MTH DCS battery operation.


You have found the right place and will receive great info here at MLS. 

Alan


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you have a lot of the older LGB decoders, you might want a system that supports the older "serial function" control. You can use LGB command stations with Massoth controllers. 

If you have newer units that do not need the antique "serial functions", then by all means get a modern DCC system. I use NCE, but can recommend NCE, Zimo, Digitrax, Massoth. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The original LGB locos used serial, not parallel operatiion of the function keys, so when F6 was depressed, 6 pulses were sent. F5 was 5 pulses. 

When Type II mts was released it was serial also, but you could upgrade to parallell and run both. 

Type III MTS was made with parallel from the start. 

Zimo has serial compatibility as does Massoth for the MTS older locos that have serial decoders. There may be others. 

One other note, the original decoders for MTS were 14 speed steps only.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the serial and parallel decoder feature only applies to sound functions.

If budget alloys would definitely look at the NCE 10 amp sets. This is a $500+ investment though.


The NCE cab controller is great for the price point.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

As I learned recently though, the NCE sets are expandable. No matter what you buy NOW, you can combine it into your system LATER and never have to throw anything away. Definitely appealled to me! I finally got my Pro Cab out of the box today and played with a QSI Aristo decoder, reset the loco address, changed some CV's, had to do a reset once with the magnet, but I figured out why, yeah, definitely. 

Besides, if they can sell a Big Hauler on Ebay for five bills, think of what those LGB decoders and equipment must be worth! 

LOL! 

Robert


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## ketchamr (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you all so much for the help! It's great to find a place where folks are familiar with all this, and are willing to help a novice like me! 

So just to make sure I'm on the same page, from what I've read from your posts and from doing a little research on eBay and elsewhere (gives a rough estimate of the prices, at least), it seems like I'm leaning toward the following possibilities: 

-- The NCE 10-amp system sounds like the most sophisticated, and actually, the price of the system (I saw one complete system on eBay for under $700) doesn't seem all that bad by comparison. The advantages would seem to be its 10-amp supply, which would be very nice, its NMRA compatibility, and just its sheer quality. The biggest down sides I could see right now (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) would be that (1) there's no analog option, so basically every loco would have to have a decoder; (2) it sounds like, even though it does work with newer LGB decoders, it might not work with the older Type I decoders I already have installed; and (3) the throttle looks somewhat complex. About the latter, I should explain that as much as I'm not too knowledgeable about DCC, my dad and another friend who often run the system are likely less so. Right now, we use the MTS train mouse that simply has a dial for the throttle, an emergency stop button int he middle, and slide switch at the bottom to select which of the 8 locos to control, and a couple buttons on top that we don't really use. I can just see the sheer number of buttons on the NCE or other new systems, as well as the more complicated digital display, taking sort of a long learning curve for everyone to get used to... (And for that matter, one problem now is that at some point we lost the instructions for our old Type I train mouse, so I can't even figure out how to program a loco using out simple three-button device!) 

-- The Massoth system looks like it would be great for compatibility -- able to operate with both older and newer decoders, from LGB and any other NMRA-compatible systems (likely, for us, the $50 Digitrax). But, of all the systems, this looks like the most expensive -- the prices I've seen from a quick glance online seem to place this well upwards of $1,000. And, I can't really find out much about analog control, and the cab system still would likely require some learning curve after being used to our little three-button device. 

-- I'd still be curious about anyone's experiences with either the MTS Type II or Type III systems. On the surface, this would seem like the easiest option -- just take out our old Type I box, put in the new Type II or Type III one (both of which seem fairly affordable), and we could keep our current power supply and simple cab control. And, it looks like they'd still offer an analog option, for one train without a decoder. I'm still trying to figure out, though, whether they'd actually solve the problems already being faced -- the Type III system does look like it could be compatible with Digitrax or other NMRA-compliant decoders (though I haven't seen any certification of this), but I'm not sure it would work with our old serial decoders. The Type II system would apparently work with the old or new LGB decoders, but I haven't found anything suggesting it would work with other NMRA-compliant (e.g., Digitrax) decoders -- which would take away the whole point in looking for a new system. And, I'm guessing both of these are still limited to 5 amps... Plus, I have to admit that I'm annoyed how LGB seems the hardest to find any manufacturer's info online -- I know with the bankruptcy and all, things are sort of in flux, but with NCE and Massoth both making their instructions guides and everything available, I with LGBoA or someone would get more details up -- preferably in English...  

Thanks again for all your help, and I'd loev to hear any more insight you may have! I'm starting to wish I'd asked more questions when we first put this thing in 15 years ago -- but then again, I was about 15 yrs old then, thought I'd felt accomplished having set up the original DC block system, and so really wasn't ready to tackle all this crazy new stuff! 

- Robbie


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The NCE throttle is very easy--the little LED display steps you through it, and it can do all the programming on the mainline. But most of the time I'm just adjusting speed and choosing "select loco." It looks harder tha it is. But I also bought one of their less advanced throttles, the "cab04," to give to kids to run. It does everything I want in daily running


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Robbie, 

If you want to retain the ability to run your serial decoders than Massoth, Zimo or MTSIII are your best options, plus they allow you to run analog locs still, and can run any brand decoders. I am using MTSIII, with Massoth navigators for control. I really don't like the NCE handhelds...after you've tried the Massoth ones they seem like 60's technology, but it seems like a personal preference thing that you need to try for yourself. In our family we bought one Navigator and after everyone tried it it was not long before we had more because they are such intuitive and user-friendly controllers. I sure cannot say the same about NCE and some of the others. If possible see if there is someone in your area where you can try the various handhelds. MTSIII would fit right in for you, but your old handhelds would need the parallel upgrade to take full advantage of the unit. If you can afford it, I would hold out until you can get one of the Massoth central stations, say the Dimax 800. You could use your old transformer to power it and that would provide you with 8amps and you can always add a booster if you need more power. A less costly system you might want to investigate is the new Piko digital system, which is built by Massoth. It is very affordable, offers 128 speed steps, 5A, and since it is built by Massoth I suspect it can run the old serial decoders and analog loc too. It never hurts to spend some time reading the online manuals at the Massoth and Piko site (if they are available online yet). By the way the MTSIII manual is also online in the Massoth download centre on their website. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The throttles seem to be the most "personal" part, and the best thing to do is follow Keith's advice and try ones out if possible. 

I have the opposite opinion on throttles. I have a computer science and engineering background, there's not a system I cannot figure out or use, so it's not that the Zimo or Massoth are too complex for me, it's that there are too many levels of menus involved and too much other "gee gaws" of information on the screen. This sounds funny from a guy who his friends call the "gadget man", but when running trains, I want dedicated functions, and within reason, more buttons for dedicated functions, rather than few buttons and more menus. 

But, try to find a club or friend and get your hands on them. This really is the way to go, most any system will work for you. The combination that Keith uses is my recommendation for people who have a lot of "legacy" LGB MTS I decoders. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo central station will control the serial functions of the older MTS including both sound and light/smoke functions. 

I have done this.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will the Zimo throttles put out the serial commands? I thought they would... 

Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Note that NCE doesn't support the analog "channel." This is probably a good deal since the analog channel is a kludge anyway. 

Digitrax will support the analog channel at address 00 if you want to use it, or you can disable the capability. 

Your older 14 step MTS 1 decoders will work with the newer systems. For Digitrax, you have to set up the address initially to tell the command station to use 14 step mode. After that, for that address, the command station remembers the setup. 

The serial functions are an issue with Digitrax and NCE, neither support them. The locos will still run, but commanding anything that uses the serial command is a pain of rapid button pressing and that doesn't work all the time. 

NCE has a leg up on booster capability, a full 10 amps with margin. Digitrax is somewhat less expensive but it's biggest booster is just barely 8 amps. Both have competent radio links for the throttles. The throttles are a lot different, both are usuable, each does something easier than the other, I consider them a wash. 

Both NCE and Digitrax can use an iPhone, iPod touch, iPad or Android phone as radio throttles with the addition of a little hardware (WiFi router you probably already have in place and an inexpensive USB to command station network adaptor) and a Mac or PC running some free software. An otherwise unloved 10 year old computer can do this job fine.


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## ketchamr (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you again so much! It sounds like, more and more, either the MTS III or the Dimax 800z would meet our needs best, with minimal need to reconfigure too much... So, just a question of talking with family members (with more money than I!) about whether the additional 3 amps from the Dimax is worth the additional cost. 

Keith -- Thanks also for letting me know about Massoth's download section. If we can't get this new system set up by our running season this summer (right now, the top priority is expanding the radius on a certain main-line curve, where a three has quite inconveniently grown much larger than it was 15 years ago, leading to a wonderful ~15% grade... and we wondered why we were having problems running just a short train!), at least I can finally see how to program using our old MTS I again, if needed... 

Greg -- Thanks for making me not feel too bad about being overwhelmed by some of the new throttles, if even a computer expert can find them tricky! I'm afraid I'm paying the price of learning everything about electronics from my grandfather, who was an NMRA founder and built his HO pike back in the '30s. To this day, both for my N-scale indoors and the independent yard control panel, I'm using the ever-advanced Marn-O-Stat levers from ages ago -- and am snatching them up whenever I can find them. Still haven't found anything better for basic control and ease of use! Too bad they haven't come out with a Marn-O-Stat walkaround...


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zimo can send out serial commands, and will do Analog but at a DCC loss. 

My own solution is a DPDT switch to switch from Zimo to my TE system. Best of both worlds this way.


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