# LGB ore cars



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Last month TrainWorld made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so I bought 5 boxes of the ores cars. With 4 cars per box I am now in the process of converting them into a unit train that looks more like the ore trains run in northern Minnesota. I purchased cars lettered for the Pennsylvania Railroad, unfortunately they don't come in DM&IR. The color is close so sometime I'll reletter them for the DM&IR. 

To get them operational the first job was to replace the plastic wheels with metal ones. The next operation was to figure out how to get the cars closer together. With the original LGB hook and loop couplers that came on the cars there was a gap of 4 inches between the cars. Even with metal wheels the cars are very light. I had a lot of derailments on a test run using the truck mounted hook and loops.





















I discussed modifying the cars for close coupling with Jim Stapleton (AKA Dr. Rivet). Since I was going to run it as a unit train, he suggested connecting the cars with a draw bar rather than using couplers. I made the draw bars out of 16 gauge aluminum wire. I bent the wire into loops. The length of the draw bar is 2 3/8 inches, befor making the loops the wire started out 6 inches long. At each end of the car there is a small screw. I removed the screw and drilled out the hole so that I could slip one of the thousands of extra screws that I have acquired from all my Kadee coupler installations. I secured the screw with a nut. At one end of the car I put a second nut on to hold one end of the wire draw bar in place. The other end was left with a single nut so that I can slide the loop over the post. 











This reduced the distance between the cars to about 2 inches. Looking at pictures of the DM&IR ore cars the distance between the cars is a little less than the diameter of the wheels. It looks as if my separation is about right. The air hoses over lap a little, From 10 feet they look pretty good. The draw bars stay in place, and by pulling on the car body rather that on the trucks, the train runs without any derailments, so far. The threading on the screw helps keep the loose end in place.










































Does any one know if there are commercial decals available for DM&IR ore cars, or am I going to have to have them custom made?


Cheers,


Chuck N


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

The set I have had replacement close coupling fittings in the box, were there none in yours?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I had them in the box, but I didn't think that they got the cars close enough. It would bring them closer, but not close enough for my purposes. You still have the entire length of one loop with the hook. I addition, the pull on the truck mounted couplers caused the light cars to derail. In my opinion, the pull on the body mounted system worked better on my road bed. 

Chuck N


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

ok 

As a former coal miner, I've seen big steam locomotives pulling long strings of coal cars. But for some reason I have always thought of ore trains being relitively short. 3-6 cars pulled by a smaller locomotive. The mallet looks great pulling the 20 ore cars, but is this prototypical? 

Randy


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

In the Iron Ranges of northern Minnesota the engines would pull trains of up to 160 cars. They had to move a lot of iron ore during the war years. During WWII Yellowstones were the preferred motive power used to connect the mines with the harbor at Duluth. In iron mining like coal mining the loads that left the mine went directly to market. Iron ore in northern Minnesota was of a high enough grade to go directly into the blast furnaces of Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. It went by ship from Duluth and other Lake Superior ports to the other ports in the lower Great Lake States. 

Chuck N


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes. These ore cars were typically grouped in 4-car sets called "quads" (you can see the yellow markings on the corners of each 4-car groups in the above photos). Long strings of these quads brought the ore directly from the mines to the docks on the great lakes. It was those docks that dictated the short length (24', if I remember) of each car. 

That's one handsome string of ore cars! I think LGB did a great job on those. 

Later, 

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin: 

I agree with you these are good looking cars. There are, or have been other "ore cars" available, but in my mind the proportions aren't correct for the Minnesota cars. Some have said the the USAT cars are good representations for the cars used in northern Wisconsin and Michigan, but they are too tall for the Minnesota cars and for historic family reasons I wanted the Minnesota version. As I recall you did a GR review of these cars when they came out and you main problem was that the trucks weren't correct. I guess that I'll have to live with that. Besides at 10 feet who can see the journals? 


Chuck N


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I just recieved this months issue (june) of Railroad Illustrated and page 16 has a perfect side view of a brand new DMIR with CN also. 
sorry I don't want to copy it.


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

it's so nice to see another Large scaler modeling the iron range and the twin ports! I have 8 of the LGb cars, all are lettered for dm&ir, with the exception of one for my railroad (Duluth,Biwabik&northern) you wont find a better or more prototypical ore car in g-scale. the Usa trains ones are a joke, and the MDC cars need alot of modification to look good. If you need a good referance book for your re-lettering project, check out "Great lakes ore docks and ore cars" by Patrick Dorin. I'm friends with the author, and he is a virtual library of the history of the twin ports and the range. Another good ref. book is "the lake superior iron ore railroads" do you have plans to paint that nice 2-8-8-2 into livery as well? thats my dream train 60 or the lgb cars and a 2-8-8-2 on the point..... ahhh someday....


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Sean:

Thanks for the comments. My next goal is to re letter the cars. If I could afford it I'd love to have 40 more cars. I'll probably always pull these with my B&O 2-8-8-2. The B&O is my prime standand gauge rolling stock. My secondary line is the D&RGW, both in narrow gauge and standard gauge. My rationalization for pulling the ore cars behind B&O power is that it was a long cold winter and the lakes hadn't thawed. The mills in the midwest needed raw material, so everything was brought to in to keep the mills going. 


Chuck N


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

How well do your homemade wire drawbars work backing up?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

On my railroad, everything moves forward. My track has 10 foot diameter curves throughout. Nothing backs up very well, body mounted or truck mounted couplers cause problems. I even have trouble pushing my rotary when the snow gets too deep.


When it stops raining, I'll try backing up. 


Chuck N


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I use body mounted Kadee couplers exclusively. I have no problems backing stuff up. Did have all sorts of problems backing up with truck mounted Kadee couplers. I want to have a 100 car ore train. I have 20 of the old MDC ore cars custom painted so I only need 80 more cars. The LGB cars are a possibility depending on the cost. I don't care if they are all the same manufacturer.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Hi all, 

I too like ore cars, but from a narrow gauge perspective. I have a string of 12 Accucraft 4heel cars, which I can run behind almost any narrow gauge live steamer, US or UK -- sometimes with another eight from guys in my running group. I like the smaller, funkier (yet bigger, 1:20.3) appearance, but both (Accucraft and LGB) look great. 

I also have a long string of LGB disconnects with metal (Gary Raymond) wheels -- looks good, sounds good, runs good. And they pack up really small for road trips. 

Re: Kevin's cooment about the short length of ore cars, another reason is that ore is heavy -- it does not take a long car to load up the axle weight. Bruce Gathman gave me a coffee can of granite chips a few years ago -- It really makes a load when you fill the cars. 

Regards all, Mike in Tallahassee


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There are many different types of ore cars. It depended a lot on what you were mining and how far you had to move it. The ore bins on the docks along Lake Superior were spaced for 24 ' cars. That spacing was first used on the docks that had been built around 1900. As cars and docks improved the spacing remained the same. In this case the ore was loaded directly in the cars at the working face in the large open pit mines. It went directly from the shovel to the dock. Now the ore grade is lower and it has to be processed before it can go the the ships. 

In Colorado most ore moved in and around mines was moved in 4 wheeled cars. They were small so that they could be pushed or pulled by miners, mules, and later electric motors. Once the car left the mine it went to the mill, an ore bin for later shipping, or the waste dump. Most ore that left the mine site was put on regular NG (4 axle) gondolas on the RGS, D&RGW, or any of other narrow gauge lines in the Rocky Mountains. Concentrate from the mill was usually bagged and sent out in box cars. 

Four wheel cars were used in England and Wales to move ore and coal on the main line and narrow gauge railroads. 

Chuck N


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rpc7271 on 05/26/2009 10:51 PM
I use body mounted Kadee couplers exclusively. I have no problems backing stuff up. Did have all sorts of problems backing up with truck mounted Kadee couplers. I want to have a 100 car ore train. I have 20 of the old MDC ore cars custom painted so I only need 80 more cars. The LGB cars are a possibility depending on the cost. I don't care if they are all the same manufacturer. 

I was going to ask about that so it's pretty much on topic.

I got a single car as a gift. I'm going to make good use of it somewhere but I use body mounted 930's throughout. A quick look at this car and I don't think it's going to work. Anyone install these?

Thanks, 
Dave


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave: 

That is one of the reasons that I went to a draw bar for most of the train. In real life the "Quads" were connected by draw bars with regular couplers on the front of the first car and on the rear of the fourth. Right now I have a truck mounted Kadee (see the fourth picture in my original post) on the first and last cars, so that I can couple to the engine and caboose and run the train until we come up with a better solution. Jim Stapleton, my local Kadee source, is working on two of the cars to see what Kadee will work best. On these cars, like the prototype the wheels stick out beyond the end of the car. The coupler pocket has to stick out at least as far as the edge of the wheel. When we figure out something, I'll let you all know. 

Chuck


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck

I have had to cut a notch into the side of my coupler assys on all my cars anyway. That allows the leading edge (and trailing edge) of the wheels to turn at a tighter radius. The couplers still operate and no one can see the slicing and dicing I did anyway. This car is very 'tight' so I don't think a 930 draft gear box can be cut down enough to work.. A truck mount is probably the answer.

Thanks 

Dave


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Relative to the real quads, yours are seriously far apart--I have an article in a Trains Magazine from 1976 or so which explains the first drawbar-equipped ore cars. The distance between wheels was approximately two inches! Blows my mind completely. I still think yours would probably work better on anything less than 500 foot curves though... 

Pic here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kmadsen/576544778/


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Robbie: 

All the pictures of the modern ore cars that I have access to show the gap to be about 1/2 to 3/4 of the diameter of the wheel. I haven't tried to measure it, but that is my eyeball guess. My gap, looks reasonably close to the gap seen in picture I have. It could be that my pictures are at the coupled end, not the draw bar end. 

There is no way I could get by with a scale 2 inches between my cars. 


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

rpc7271 

They back up just fine. I was able to back up the entire train through a 180 degree 10' diameter curve. The cars connected by the draw bars (wires) made it through fine. The only derailment occurred when the truck mounted coupler at the tender entered the curve. That's when the wheels came off the track, but only the tender and the trucks with the coupler. 

I would have to say that I was surprised the the draw bar seemed to work. 

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

As I said in my original post, "Does any one know if there are commercial decals available for DM&IR ore cars, or am I going to have to have them custom made?" 

Chuck N


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Most railroad cars were sized for the load that they were intended to carry. Iron ore is dense. By the time an ore car was filled, it was reaching it's weight limits, at least in the early days. This resulted in a 24' car. If you tried to fill a coal hopper with ore, you'd break something. Newer trucks and heavier rail can carry more weight, but the sizing of the docks is still set for a 24' car, so 24' they are. 

MDC ore hoppers are fairly easy to close couple.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Chuck

What metal wheels did you use for the LGB ore cars? 

Was there any modifications needed?

Great subject and thanks for sharing !

Alan


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan 

I used Sierra Valley (Gauge 1, long axle, and unplated(note the rust, size 2)) wheel sets. The larger diameter part of the axle is a little too long for the LGB trucks. I had to take the trucks apart and file about a 1/16 of an inch off the inside of each journal so that the wheels would spin freely. 

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=355256
Robbie: 


I have been thinking about the 2 inch gap you mentioned in your reply to my original post on the thread. I just couldn't believe that, I have finally found a link to a good picture of the cars with the draw bar.


http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=355256


If we assume the car is 24 feet long I get about a foot between the wheels and about 4 feet between the car bodies.

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim Stapleton went through several possible KADEEs for connecting the ore cars at the Quad ends. He came to the conclusion that #835 would work best. The 835 has a short shank and small box. 

At each end of the car is a small tab that is part of the uncoupling linkage. I pulled it out with my fingers, a friction fit, not glued. There are two holes through the coupler box. I ran a 2-56 1 inch bolt through the rear hole and into a hole drilled out that has a small black screw(removed) in the car bottom and tightened it with a nut. 






















There is a small gap (about 1/16 inch) between the car body and the front of the coupler box. The wheels are about 3/4 of an inch apart. I'm pleased with the look.


The couplers stick out enough such that there is no conflict between the ore car and the tender or caboose. 


Chuck


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Chuck

Just the information I was looking for.

Dave


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the comment Dave. Glad to be able to help. 

Chuck


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

I noted that in an earlier post you remarked about having to trim the Kadee 830/930 boxs for truck swing. 

As you can see from Chuck's photo, the short box of the 835/836/837 solves this problem. On the ore cars, the wheels closest to the center stricke the center sill befor the outside end wheels strike the coupler box. The 835 has the shank at the center of the coupler, the 836 and 837 have small and large vertical offsets of the shank relative to the center line of the coupler. The 835s provided the correct coupler height in this particular application. 

Regards


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Jim

I noticed that. Of course it was long after I invested about $700.00 in 930's - and I only got them because I liked the colour.







I have acquired a couple of new cars in the past year or so and when I get down to Art Knapps again I'll be sure to check out the shorter ones. I expect they will be just as effective on the larger 40+ cars. 
Dave


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that we have a day of clear skies and no rain I can bring out my coal train to go with the iron ore train. Being a retired geologist, I'm kind of partial to mine run trains.

There are 20 iron ore cars and 12 hoppers. Each train just fits on my passing sidings.


















































Chuck


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

The solution I came up with was using real cheap usa trains knuckle couplers. If you look at the bottom of the lgb ore cars, you will see a screw mounted on the frame, exactly where you would mount a coupler, remove that. Now, take the usa trains coupler, and drill a new screw hol;e in the draw bar, about 1/4" if I remember correctly (it may be 1/2") now, cut the draw bar 1/4" behind the new hole. Install the coupler with the screw removed from the car and the same hole it came from. Its cheap, easy and VERY functional. also, usa knuckle couplers will mate with kaydee's! and, ore cars generally run as a unit train, so switching is at a minimum, so you dont need expensive kaydee couplers! this is what I did for my ore train, and it works prefectly! if you want photos, let me know


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Sean: 

Pictures would be nice. Those small screws are in a good position for mounting couplers. Those holes are the ones I used, only I drilled them out a little larger. I can't figure out what they are there for, they don't seem to hold anything. 

I have used the USA couplers in the past, but there has been some comments in the forums about the USAT couplers pulling apart with long trains. 


Chuck


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Sean 

Since Charlie Ro charges $4.95 for a pair of couplers that on the USA Trains web site list for $6.95, and Kadees list for $7.95 per pair and are usually available for around $6.50-$6.75 on the market, the $1.50 per car [in my book] is not significant. Chuck would have "SAVED" almost $7.50 in his conversion process of doing the ends of five sets of LGB QUADS. I would bet that $7.50 is pretty small compared to the price of the cars. 

I do not think price should enter into selection of couplers nearly as much as the relative merits of their operating characteristics. IF you were converting 40 cars at once you WOULD save the price of another car. 

IF on the other hand, you have acquired a lot of USAT couplers at a really low price, or better yet FREE, then you are right. 

Regards


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/14/aft/111423/afv/topic/Default.aspx
I have finally finished converting all 20[/b] of the LGB Pennsylvania iron ore cars, pictured at the beginning of this thread, to Duluth Missabe and Iron Range( DM&IR) ore cars. It took a while to get the LGB lettering off. Stan Cedarleaf's decals are excellent and went on easily. 





























See this thread for a longer discussion of the decals:


DM&IR ore car decals

The next step is to figure out how to remove the ore loads so that they can be repainted with a paint that more matches the taconite ore that these cars are supposed to be carrying. I think that a glossy gun metal gray would be about right. If any of you have a better suggestion for a paint, please chime in. 



Chuck


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

I was investigating these cars and I read that the best way to remove the load is to open the doors at the bottom then push an appropriate sized screwdriver up through the door and push the load out. At that point you can also remove the side extensions. 

I don't have any of these cars so I can't validate the advice but I hope it might help...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Frank, that worked. I had tried to come at it from the top, it didn't come off and I was worried about breaking something. 

Chuck


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

They sure look good, Chuck. Delighted all went well....

I use Krylon rattle cans for paint on my rolling stock. They have a couple of shades of gray that should work right well...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 02 Aug 2009 07:18 AM 
They sure look good, Chuck. Delighted all went well....

I use Krylon rattle cans for paint on my rolling stock. They have a couple of shades of gray that should work right well... 
Before you run off for paint consider this; oh it's up there.....back on top inspite of typed lines
From Wkipedia...processed taconite...reds, browns and greys...

you might want to consider the speckled paint application method, stand back I and don't shake the can to well....


John
Sorry Stan for goofing your post, quoting is a shortcut to add photos.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan -- Thanks for the comments and the help. It is greatly appreciated. 

John -- That picture really helps. The pictures of cars, from as distance, show the load to be a uniform gray. I think that I will get a can of gray and stand back and give it a light coat. The load in the car is already an iron oxide red. It just needs to be softened. 

Chuck 

PS I just noticed that 200 entries gets me promoted to brakeman!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

brakeman yes... but you get to ride with 'fred' ...on the back end! 

Judging from some of my posts....it ain't the number..... 

Happy to help, the farther back I got from that pic, the more red became the overall color with brown/gray subtones...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I've just hit the ore load lightly with Krylon smoke gray. More red comes through than it appears in the pictures.




















The only insurmountable problem is the the real taconite pellets are about the size of a time. The "pellets" LGB gave us are probably scale out to 4 to six inches across.


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Back on May 20th when I started this thread Nick (nkelsey) mentioned that LGB had a short coupling rig in the box with the cars. I had modified all my cars before trying the LGB short coupling. I just got two more boxes of ore cars (new total is 28). I tried the LGB system this afternoon. It does bring the cars closer (about 3 inches) between the car bodies, which is shorter than the 4 inches with the hook and loop couplers. My system got the car bodies about 2 inches apart. Here are some pictures of the LGB close coupling.










original H&L 












My modification











The LGB system is better, but it still isn't close enough for me.


Chuck N


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I forgot to add a picture of the LGB close coupling with a ruler in my previous note.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And the prototypes were even closer together, the wheels were almost touching between adjacent cars. That's probably not possible with our curves. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg: 

I've looked at a lot of pictures of the ore cars. The gap between the wheel sets is between 1/2 and 1/4 the diameter of the wheel. My gap is between 1/2 and 3/4 of a wheel diameter. I agree, that much closer would present problems on the curves that I use (10' diameter). You and I had a discussion a while back on these cars. I need to find some drawings to determine the scale. The cars are supposed to be 24', is that end of car to end of car, or end of coupler to end of coupler? That difference would make a significant difference in the calculation. Since they are LGB, that may not be possible in all dimensions (at least getting the same scale in all dimensions). Regardless of their exact scale, they are good representations of the iron ore cars that run north of Lake Superior and I am happy with how they look behind my engine (Aristo Mallet). It was suggested in an earlier thread that the USAT cars may match those running in northern Wisconsin and northern Michigan. I haven't been able to locate any pictures or drawings of those cars. The extension of the trucks beyond the end of the car is critical in the discussion of the accuracy of the various iron ore cars that are on the market. 

Regardless of the real distance, I think that my modifications are looking a lot more realistic than either of the LGB options. I should try to take some pictures of the cars on various curves to see how much closer I can make them. Right now the ends of the air hoses just overlap. Much more closeness would make the hose overlap much more obvious. 


Chuck N


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes completely agree with you on all your points. I wanted to make an ore car consist, until I found out that Santa Fe never ran them. I also think the LGB is the closest to the prototype. I've also confirmed to my satisfaction that the USAT ones are indeed slightly spruced up versions of the Lionel ones, pretty, but the trucks are in the wrong place. 

If I was to make a consist, it would definitely be LGB. 

Regards, Greg


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