# Aristocraft Ore Cars?



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I take it the new ore cars Aristocraft announced back in 2012 never made it into production - not even with Scott and Gen Next.

Anyone know what the status is?
Is there any hope at all that we are ever going to see them as a product?

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lewis says the molds were done, and I think there was news it was even closer.

I'd send a private email to Scott.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks Greg,

I tried that through the email enquiry form on Scott's website but it's not clear if that actually went anywhere.
The "send" button changes to "processing" and then just sits there - processing forever so to speak.
If I think of it tomorrow I'll try to call.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

email me privately, I might have an alternative email address for you.

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut

When they were announced a few years ago I was excited, because I wanted more DM&IR iron ore cars for my ore train, currently made up of LGB cars.









The LGB cars are a very good representation of the ore cars used in northern Minnesota. Note in the picture below how the wheels stick out beyond the end of the car, the journal box is directly below the end sill. That is how it is on the prototypes. These cars were repainted and lettered for the DM&IR, they came from LGB lettered for the PRR and Santa Fe. The decals are by Stan Cedarleaf.










I had hoped that when USAT came out with their ore jennies I could add them to my roster. Unfortunately, the wheels (trucks) are placed too far back under the car and don't stick out per the prototype.


http://www.charlesro.com/store/merc...RSC&Product_Code=R14219&Category_Code=GRUSORE

This left me hoping that the AristoCraft cars would work, but as I remember, from Aristo's pictures the wheels are located back under the frame, like USAT's.

The MDC jennies have wheels that stick out from under the frame similar to LGB's.

So depending on how accurate you want your cars, you may want to look for some LGB or MDC cars. 

I can always hope that the wheels on the "new" AristoCraft cars are in the correct location for the DM&IR, and then I WILL add a dozen or so cars to lengthen my ore drag. Otherwise I will have to stick with my 32 car train.

Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The sample shown at the 2012 NGRC doesn't have the wheels stick out beyond the frame.
I doubt the final production unit will be any different in that respect.
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=7350

LGB Ran the orecars you have again in 2008 with DR lettering - that might be a better option if you want to expand your roster

Knut


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

What about PIKO ore cars? Are they not the MDC molds?

http://www.piko-america.com/37800.jpg

Jerry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Piko did get the MDC molds, they are 1/32nd scale though.


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Lewis says the molds were done, and I think there was news it was even closer.
> 
> I'd send a private email to Scott.
> 
> Greg


This is what many of us thought. I know quite a few were disappointed that they never may it to the USA. Scott did say a while ago, in a post on the Aristo Forum, that we would eventually get them, but he couldn't say when and from whom.

Live in hopes I guess.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My opinion, is that the detail and accessories on the LGB car exceeds that on the MDC/PIKO. I don't have access to my cars at the moment, but if this thread is still active next week, I'll post pictures of them together, along with measurements. I have three of the MDC cars.

Chuck


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

I doubt we will ever see the ore cars. Molds were made, but silk screen molds, box printing etc weren't finalized. Lewis noted at the time his cost would be about $40.00 per car. With the price increase by the Chinesee, shipping and overhead, Scott would have to wholesale them for $80.00 to $100.00. At that price any return on investment would be very long term. Plus he would need over $30K upfront for a short run, money he does not have.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

adir tom said:


> I doubt we will ever see the ore cars. Molds were made, but silk screen molds, box printing etc weren't finalized. Lewis noted at the time his cost would be about $40.00 per car. With the price increase by the Chinesee, shipping and overhead, Scott would have to wholesale them for $80.00 to $100.00. At that price any return on investment would be very long term. Plus he would need over $30K upfront for a short run, money he does not have.


If your numbers are even only approxinately correct, it sure wouldn't make any sense for Scott to bring these cars into the US.
For one, they don't look any more realistic than the USA Trains ones which were poor sellers but how are they going to compete with the more realistic LGB cars that sold for $225 for a set of four?

LGB had offered these cars with the livery of the following railroads:
Pennsylvania
New York Central
White Pass & Yukon
Santa Fe
Canadian National

If they ever run them again - which railroad should they letter them for?
Or would it make more sense to offer an undecorated set - just print the basic car data and expect customers to add their own railroad lettering and road numbers.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually the Lionel cars in 1:32 were pretty realistic, just a different prototype.

With the spacer under the trucks, USAT did something a little weird... they look ok, but the scale is not 1:29.

What is not realistic about the USAT that is on the LGB?

I'm just curious on how you come to that conclusion.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> What is not realistic about the USAT that is on the LGB?
> 
> I'm just curious on how you come to that conclusion.


Just a matter of what I expect an ore car to look like, nothing cast in concrete.

Things I like better about the LGB car:
1. Body sits lower
2. Wheels extending past the body on each end
3, Option to have the cars close-coupled which seems more realistic
4. More details on the cars

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the USAT mod raises the car, but I believe it can easily be taken off... that said it does take extra effort.

Personally I like the wheels extending past the ends of the cars, but there are many prototypes where this is not true. Initially I thought this was not prototype, but I found several examples.

Close coupled option, can you enlighten me here? Is there a stock option from LGB to do this?

Your last comment is mainly the reason I asked, I see the detail as about the same. 

Check that, I _SAW _them as about the same... side by side, there's a lot more piping on the LGB and stirrups.

I'd say now I have to agree with you!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

AmericasBestTrainShoppe must have received some sort of half finished pre-production sample, the CN version of the LGB ore car looks like this:
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=7358

As to short coupling - the LGB ore cars that were sold as sets of four came with short, permanent connecting bars, so they would have to run as a permanent consist if one wanted to take advantage of that.
There is a pdf under "User Guide" in this GBDB listing that will show you that arrangement
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=7355

But there are also a couple of short H&L couplers available like the S-Kuplix which could be used on the USAT cars to couple them closer

Knut


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg

Several years ago I started a thread on how I got close coupling for my ore jennies.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/21-rolling-stock/8598-lgb-ore-cars.html

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to post an active link on my iPad. When I hit the chain icon, I get thrown out. You will have to copy and paste the above URL. If this doesn't work, I'll try again tomorrow night when I get home.

All of my experience with iron ore jennies has been in northern Minnesota. Everyone I have seen in1:1 and books has the wheels sticking out beyond the car. I have heard of, but not seen that the USAT style cars were used in ore transfer from the mines in the UP of Michigan and northern Wisconsin.

Chuck

The link seems to work! I just pasted it into the post, no insertion icon needed.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

> LGB had offered these cars with the livery of the following railroads:
> Pennsylvania
> New York Central
> White Pass & Yukon
> ...


Nobody offered an opinion so far.

When I did a bit more digging I found that NYC, WP&Y and Santa Fe apparently never had ore cars like those and the PRR and CN ones looked quite different.
The DM&IR prototypes seem to be one of the closest in appearance to the LGB ore cars.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut

If LGB came out with the cars lettered for the DM&IR I'd get some more. It would be a maybe if the only the roads you list were the only ones produced.

Chuck

I have a post near the end of the thread I linked to in my earlier post about the LGB quad linkages instead of their H&L. It does bring the cars closer together, but in my opinion, still not close enough.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, that first post of yours was almost exactly 6 years ago!

They do look good!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Knut
> 
> If LGB came out with the cars lettered for the DM&IR I'd get some more. It would be a maybe if the only the roads you list were the only ones produced.
> 
> ...


I thought it would make sense for LGB to produce another set of PRR ones with different road numbers to complement the two PRR 4 car sets that already exist - that way people can creat a consist of 12 with different road numbers without doing their own lettering and then also come out with a set of undecorated ones, ie just the car data so people can add on to whatever they already have.
DM&IR would certainly be very high on the list if LGB decides to run another railroad but they tended not to do that - they would also have to negotiate a license I assume with whoever owns the DM&IR trademarks.

No point making any for railroads that never ran these types of ore cars.
Even the PRR prototypes I have seen are different but since there are two sets out there already I thought a third set makes sense.

As to making the linkage between the cars shorter - question is how short can one make it and still negotiate R1 curves and R1 reverse curves.
Can your cars the way they are set up make it through R1?
Yu also have your draw bar connected to the body rather than the truck, that is probably a better set up but not something that LGB has done before as far as I know.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I really like these "ore jennies", but Santa Fe never owned any. They did on occasion use some on a mine in New Mexico as I remember, but they were never lettered for Santa Fe. Drat.

Knut, what do these weigh? I may still break down and make a long drag of them.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Chuck does not run R1 curves, so you may have to stay with your larger than prototype spacing.

Doggone you guys, now I'm getting all worked up to get some, a drag of 50 of them would certainly look cool.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg,

I don't have a clue how much they weigh.
I don't have any - the only ore cars like that I had were the MDC ones many years ago but I sold those rather quickly.

This whole thread started when I was trying to find out what the status was of the Aristo ore cars - still don't know what that status is other han that the Aristo cars are very unlikely to show up any time soon.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Knut, from your comments, I thought you had some, especially when you were sort of questioning Chuck's mods working on R1 curves.

Maybe Chuck can weigh one for me when he gets a chance... my concern is that in a long drag, if they are too light they can stringline, and it's hard to find a way to weight them unless you add ore loads... a bunch of work.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I would have hoped that LGB made the draw bars as short as possible but still able to negotiate R1 curves, but who knows - maybe they can be mae shorter - sure looks better when the cars are close coupled.

And LGB had committed a few years back that they would ship all rolling stock (except ToyTrain) with metal wheels.
However they backpeddled with the new 40980 3-car DB High Capacity Hopper set because of the cost.
Pity - those cars are all new tooling and then they come with plastic wheels.

I can see the same thing happening with the ore cars - maybe not all bad - the LGB metal wheels aren't very heavy since they only have a metal rim around the running surface - solid metal wheels would be better for the ore cars to give them some extra weight.

Knut


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Greg... lemm'e shed some tunnel lite from My string line 'speriences..

Stringlining is more apt to occur as over all train weight increases...
.. the risk goes up..
Stringlining is more apt to occur as cars increase in length.. given a given curve size..
...the risk increases as car length increases.. due to center of gravity shift thru coupler loadings.. combined with over all train weight..

These cars are short... n lite...really a balanced situ..
Use body mount couplers..metal wheels..

50 ore cars is short in phyiscal length.. not like 50 box cars or grain cars might be..

But first ya need the cars!!!
..nice to see ya git 'cited about running a train!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I gotcha, but some cars are very light... and I have a 9.5' diameter curve in a very nasty spot... I have pulled a 50 car freight of 40' cars through there with no issues, but all USAT Ultimate series, and have had to weight the 10k gallon tank cars.

3-4 pounds is what seems to work best...

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

On your freights.. don't run lite cars up front .. or the middle...

If all cars are constant..less of a game ta play with too!

It's more of a differential issue than constant fer most mixed freights...

Then .. there's the wise old addage... try 'em first...

Work your way up!! Be sure ta have fun!!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I have seen a few pictures on the net with about 40 of those cars in a consist.
Maybe someone running a long set will see this thread and pipe up.

Knut


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut

I doubt that they would run on R1 curves that was not my intention. My layout has 10' diameter and the other layout I run the has 20 plus radius. I have a 32 car ore train and tight curves are not even considered for the train.

I just got home from a trip. I'll go through the latest posts and weight and measure. They are great cars and I love my Minnie string of 32. Scot MacDonaldhas a video a few years ago posted that has the ore drag as part of a record of happenings at a Dr. Rivets events. I'll try to find it.

Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Chuck,

I was just wondering if I should try to push LGB to make the coupling between cars tighter since I think they look better that way.
But negotiating R1 curves is a basic LGB requirement, so maybe that is out of the question.
Also sounds as if the mod you made is relatively simple and straight forward if someone wants to do that.

Knut


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut 

If I can find my R1 curves, I'll put the cars on and see what happens.

Chuck


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

The LGB ore cars are the best of the bunch. With the addition of mertal wheels, and 10' diameter curves, along with body mounted couplers, I'd suggest at least a 30 car train is possible.
I converted all my collection of ore cars to body mounted 820/1906 Kadee couplers, without much problem, and this really made the LGB cars look just right.
The other cars I have in the fleet are made up of some MDC's and some old Lionel/USTrains. The MDC ones, as far as I'm concered are very poor, even when produced by Piko. They scale out to 1:32, to start with, but are VERY plain in every way...not a bargin at any price.
The Lionel/USTrains cars are a step better, and could be a rather good car, if they hadn't first been produced with the cars riding too high, just to clear the body mount couplers. USTrains didn't improve them, in fact probably made them worse.I was able to, again, body mount the Kadee 820/1906 couplers, then fill in a bit with some Styrene shapes to hide the extra height of the bolsters. I also converted all the non-LGB cars to Aristo freight trucks, with metal wheels.

I'm not into 50 car trains, but we do OPERATE two ore trains of at least 15 cars each. One loaded, and one empty. We have on occasion, run all 30-36 cars together just to see how they tracked, and to check out new trackwork. They did fine.

I grab any and all LGB cars, when I can, if they are at the right price....the others I wouldn't bother with. We just mask the data and give them a quick spray of oxide red primer, then label them with our reporting marks and a number.

Ore cars are seldom if ever in single car service, and are usually confined to "Unit Train Service" Sometimes the odd car can be found, when either it is being sent for major service, or being transferred to a different location.
The LGB cars all have a different configuration of air lines, than what is known as standard. They are modeled as equipped with an air line, and a brake line, both up high. This was standard for the US line at the Lake Head, that they were built for (Now owned by CN) LGB did issue them with CN markings. I don't model CN so they were re-lettered very quickly. In service it is unlikely you would ever see cars of different roads, in a train. Seeing a patchwork of paint touch-ups on the ore cars is quite common, and they are usually seen in much less than pristine shape, paint-wise, in service.

I know this thread is about the "Hoped for" Aristo ore cars, and I was hoping they might be a car, somewhat up to the LGB standards. The few pictures that appeared, gave a hint that they might have been reasonable......

On my railroad, we have two separate operations We call them, SG, and NG. We don't mix the types of rolling stock.
For the NG we use the B'mann "Wooden ore cars". They are of a good weight, even without metal wheels, and again, are easily converted to Kadee 820/1906 body mount couplers. We also run at least 15-17 car ore trains in that operation.

These are just my observations, and experiences. I'm NOT trying in any way to tell anyone how to run their fun times, or what couplers to use, on what cars they choose. 
HAVE FUN, everyone.

Fred Mills


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Fred:

Here is a string of 16 cars on my home layout with 10' diameter curves. No problems with them on a 180 degree curve when the engine is heading west and the caboose is going east.










Here is a longer train at Dr. Rivets layout about 20 cars. I haven't located a picture of a train with all 32.










Greg:

The car with metal wheels weights 1 lb 6 7/8 oz (648g).

Chuck


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I shorten the distance between my USAT cars and they look really good. I run 15 of them with no problems will eventually have 20. Later RJD


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut, Greg, Fred, and others:

Much to my surprise a quad of my LGB iron ore cars had no problem on LGB R1 curved track (4' diameter). I didn't measure the gap between the wheels on the inside rail. My guess is that it was about 3/16". The wheels on the cars with the fixed connection did touch when pushed, but not when pulled.





















The following picture is taken from inside the curve.










My guess is that they work on this tight curve because of the short car length.

The cars on each end of the quad had a Kadee #835. When I coupled the two cars with Kadees together, they also easily handled the curve.

As for dimensions, the MDC ore car is the same length and height as the LGB (ignoring the raised frame on the LGB for the taconite load). The MDC is about 1/4" narrower.


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have located one of Scott McDonald's videos of a steam up at Dr. Rivets.

It shows the LGB iron ore train. The clip of the ore train starts at 10:28. 

Sorry I put the wrong link in, this should be correct. I hope!!!

http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41658-ie-w-fall-standard-gauge-steamup-2014-a.html

Thanks to Jim, aka Dr. Rivet, for calling this error to my attention.

Chuck


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