# Plans for a steam feed pump?



## kno3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hello all,
I'd like to build a small steam feed pump for my boiler. Does anyone have a plan for a simple steam feed pump or know a source?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I assume you mean a steam-driven water feed pump ? In other words, perhaps an injector ?


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a guy on a German website who built a working steam pump in G scale-- note, this was not an injector but a PUMP. It looked very cool. Not sure if he had posted plans. Henner Meinhold who posts on MLS frequents that German site so hopefully he will chime in. Not sure if it was the same guy but someone also made a working turbo generator in G scale. 

If you, like many of the people here on MLS, enjoy buying instead of building you can buy a working pump from Regner for a serious chunk of change-- last I checked it was over $500! 

Regards,


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Here is the link to the German site: http://www.schienendampf.com/344872...e-t59.html

But Florian has problems with his pump, and the other one (now made by Regner) is made by "Kesselfreser", and he dont give his drawings away.

Alternativlt you can give Hans Klafiger a Call (or e-mail) he has made a small steam pump kit, that you might use: http://www.klaefiger.ch/modellbau/h...aturen.htm

But else if you find any free (and simple) drawings please put them up on the site.

Regards

David


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## kno3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestions.I have never used an injector. I doubt it would work well in an R/C steamboat though...

I have seen videos of the Regner pump, it's nice and just the size I'd need, but far too expensive. It cost's more than a nice twin cylinder engine!I've seen the steam pumps built by Kolbenfresser and other German guys, but they don't want to share their plans. So I'm still searching.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Here is a link to 4 pump plans for a reasonable cost. http://www.livesteamsupplies.com/livesteamsupplies_004.htm 
This came up in a recient thread and I ordered a copy. I glanced through them and they look like workable plans.


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## kno3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks. Are the units used metric or imperial?


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Imperial units.
The design is for 200 stroke/min so pump 1 is a single cylinder 1/4" bore 5/8" stroke or .229 cubic inches of water per miniut max.

Pump 2 has twin cylinders 3/8" bore 5/8" stroke 1.745 pints/min max. @ 200 stroke/min

Pump 3 single cylinder 3/16" bore 3/8" stroke the capacity is not specifyed but the max speed is 275 stroke/min.

The specs for pump 4 were not listed in the text.

These engine drawings all have Little Engines on the drawings and they were designed by Martin S. Lewis. Some of them use castings which might be avaible. The castings could be made using Kozo's assembly methods.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 25 Mar 2010 01:47 PM 
Here is a link to 4 pump plans for a reasonable cost. http://www.livesteamsupplies.com/livesteamsupplies_004.htm 
This came up in a recient thread and I ordered a copy. I glanced through them and they look like workable plans. 
I ordered a copy too. Maybe pump #3 would work on a SE engine

Bob


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## kno3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Thank you Dan.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a Worthington Duplex running on air at the Smithsonian at one time. They are fascinating to watch.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi Bob, 
Funny that you mentioned a Worthington duplex pump that is one of my favorites also. It just so happens that my Worthington Pump Handbook is on the top of the stack. Coles has a casting kit for one of these which has a center foot for the floor mount. This is a Fig. 45 Worthington duplex steam pump. The floor size for the full size pump is 9"x24" and the model is 2"x5.25". This makes it a fairly large scale pump. 

I have a casting set and I have started it more than once only to get a bit frustrated as it is not a good beginner project. Stuart has a simplex pump with a 1/4"bore water and a 1/2" bore steam and 3/4" stroke. I have one of these still in kit form that I ordered from Coles years ago. 
http://www.stuartmodels.com/inprod_det.cfm/section/casting/mod_id/68 

The pump sizes I gave for the pump plans were all for the water end. The steam piston for a boiler feed pump is always a bit larger than the water piston. 
Dan


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

This is a pic of one of those in the 4 plan booklet mentioned above. I used a piece of 3/4" brass rod and 1/4 flat stock to make the part one would get in a casting. I think it's easier to machine. I've used a 7 x 10 lathe with a milling machine attachment I made. I'm testing now with air pressure, making small corrections. The first one's always the most difficult!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap-n-Bill: Thanks for the pump tease. Still awaiting my drawings 

vr


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## kno3 (Aug 25, 2008)

Nice work! What length is it?


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I received my drawings PDQ, maybe they had to make copies. I must admit the smallish pump is neat in scale, but makes for some pretty precise work drilling passages! I used a wee, tiny drill bit in a pin vise to begin some of the holes. I don't know if there's enough interest in these to post some construction pics. I found the only stuff I could find was in German( as in the above mentioned site). As for the actual pump section, I'm going to use the small 3/16th's check valves, rather than trying to seat balls myself. I'm not a gluton for self-punishment!


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Missed your question on length. I took the thing apart because as I was testing, it only worked in one direction. I found a leak in the bottom housing. Air would push the piston in one direction..down...but not up. So far, I'm finding about 20lbs air necessary to drive the piston.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill more built photos please.

That is pump #3. It has a 3/8" steam piston and a single acting ram with a 3/16" diameter. It is really just a standard steam cylinder operating a ram pump similar to a hand feed pump. The overall length of the pump is just under about 3" the hieght of the water valve assembly is 2 5/16".

Bob my set of prints came PDQ also.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Plans arrived yesterday. Pump #3 has an length of 2.25". The author says it's intended for 1/4" and 1/2" scale models. It would look good on a larger 1:20.3 or a 1:13.7. I may take a shot at this too. 

The booklet is worth the investment.

vr


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I agree that this version would probably look good on a 1:20. I intended to 'unbox' my Bachmann Shay and photograph it for appearances. Enclosed is a pic of the various stock pieces I have used thus far. Please keep in mind this is still a work in progress, but hope I can encourage, or assist, others to try. They're just cool to watch, clicking away! Note I used 3/16th's stainless, and drill rod for the 3/32" and 1/16th rods. One change I made was in the pilot valve: the rod appears to be turned down to move the valve. I opined that would allow the rod to turn under vibration thus changing the length. I, therefore, only ground two flat sides on the rod to hold the final adjustment which is critical. I used an 0-80 die to thread the rod's end.....being easier to acquire than other sizes. Mostly, I used 2-56 and 0-80(0-90 in the fulcrum/valve lever) brass bolts. I found it's possible to drill at angle to make the cylinder passages. But, does a much better/easier job to use a 1/16th end mill bit to make a step.....assuming one has a milling machine, or milling attachment for the lathe! You will note the one steam hole in the 'main valve port face' is a bit off! Better to us very small bits(buy a handfull when you go shopping!) and drill in stages! To face off the cylinders, I used 3/8ths tube with a drop of solder. For this version, one will need a 3/8" and 3/16th's reamer. And, of course, silver solder.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Oh yea! See that little hole behind the pilot valve? It's called a 'screw-up hole'! That's where when you are converging two drilled passages and go to fast, the drill bit breaks inside! The hole allowed me to get the broken bit out. A sawed off 2-56 'plug' fixes that problem..........vs. starting all over!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking very nice Cap-n-Bill. Can't wait to see this little guy shooting water.


Here is another project. LBSC published an injector for Gauge 1. I have the complete article for this and will email to those interested.





























I bought this book a while back. It is excellent. The author lays out all the theory and the math ratios required to build an injector of any size. He also does a fabrication series for an injector for a 7.5" gauge sized engine. Written by a hobbyist for the hobbyist. It's toward the bottom of the page. "The Model Injector" by Ted Crawford


http://www.teepublishing.co.uk/new_...0injectors


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, guys, this is my first attempt at building such a piece. I'm trying to troubleshoot at this point. The piston wants to drive downward quite easily, but doesn't want to come up. By moving the lever against the pilot valve, I can get the piston to come up an 1/8" or so but doesn't come up enough to trip the pilot valve. You've got 3 valves in this thing: pilot valve, 'shuttle' valve and the main valve. By removing one cap from the shuttle valve cavity and adding air pressure, I could observe the shuttle valve seems to move properly. Leads me to think something is wrong with the main steam valve. Not a tight enough fit, the elongated 'slot' is not correct,..... Seems to want to operate easily on 5 lbs of air..which I think is good. Any thoughts out there?
Here's a pic next to my Climax for size comparison. Personally, I'd hate to try building anything smaller but I guess a real craftsman could do it!


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

If you disconnect the valve lever and operate the pilot valve by hand can you operate the pump both directions? If the answer is yes my first check would be the trip rod. 

Dan


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Just tried that, didn't help. Seems, to me, perhaps the valve slides too easily. I'm thinking there should be a 'firm' fit. That valve, merely a piece of 3/16th's with a cavity and a slot will be easy to remake.....and make to stand a bit more 'proud'. The gasket material might just be enough to defeat the 'seal'.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

When you operated the pilot valve by hand could you hear the shuttle valve shifting from one end to the other? If yes then the problem is the error in the main valve face. This is a 100% admission cylinder with no lap so the bridge (the distance between the holes) on the port face should be equal to the width of the valve seat or the difference between the inside cavity and the outside edge of the valve... or just like it is drawn in the assembly drawing. If the valve is incovering the exhaust then steam will take the short cut and the pump will not move back up. 

If the shuttle valve was not moving durring the test then the pilot valve is the problem. 
Dan


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I couldn't hear anything but the exhaust air. I don't quite understand though...seems counter-intuitive.... I would think you'd hear/feel the shuttle valve moving. Also, please explain what you mean by '100% admission cylinder with no lap'. As far as the mechanics, I believe the main valve to be correct. That is, the cavity fits over the exhaust and intake on each side. Of course once 'buttoned up', difficult to know exactly how the stroke of the shuttle is working. Guess I don't know enough about the principles here! Glad there's someone out there who understands these. Thanks, Bill


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi Bill, 
100% admission simply means that steam is supplyed to the cylinder for the full length of the stroke in both directions. This is nessary at least for the pumping direction or the pump would stall when the steam was cutoff. This pump does not pump water in both directions so full steam admission would not be needed on the return or up stroke. 

No lap is an engineering short hand way to say that the top and bottom edges of the valve are the same width as the bridge or distance between the holes on the port face of the main valve. (Just like the assembly drawing the top edge of the main valve exactly straddles two of the holes a picture book definition of no lap) 

It might be worth the trouble to tap the end of the shuttle valve and make a special cover with a thicker section to make a gland or simply a reamed hole for a manual valve rod to operate the shuttle valve manually. This would prove if the main valve was functioning or not. Full power is not needed on the up stroke so possibally the work could be saved by changing the main valve or shuttle valve to make the pump ram work corectly. 

If the exhaust port (center hole) on the main valve face is exposed to steam at the stuck point which is with the main valve in the up position or exactly oppisite the assembly drawing then all you would hear is steam exhaust as the steam is taking a short cut and not moving the pump ram. 

This is an interesting project I am planning one of those pumps myself trouble shooting with only the drawings is interesting.... usually I have parts scattered all about the bench to look at. 
Cheers Dan


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks, Dan, for the explanation. My project yesterday was to make another pilot valve, which I made a couple thousands longer so as to gett a tight fit. To me, due to its small size, the pilot valve is the most difficult part to make. This made moving the valve by hand quite difficult, but I figured who not allow any leakage. However, got the same result.....or lack thereof. I did find that I could crank the regulator down to 5 lbs or less, and it would still easily move the piston. I might add here I used some small strips of teflon plumber's tape for a piston ring. I think today I will make another shuttle valve, and another main valve. I'm thinking too, the elongated 'oblong' cavity with a rectangular valve could be problematic. Your idea of manually operating the shuttle valve is a good one. Bill


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Okay! For this morning's episode, I took the main body with the shuttle valve and end caps still on, but without the pilot valve assembly. I have a small hose..air brush tubing.. hooked to my pressure regulator. I put a small brass tube, about a 1/16th's ID, that lets me spray a small stream of air and merely 'played' it, back and forth, on top of the pilot valve openings. With about 5 lbs of air, the shuttle valve easily 'bangs' back and forth. At least that tells me the valve is free to move and suggests the main valve is not working correctly, and/or, the cavity is too big, or too small, thereby not stopping the main valve correctly or allowing it to travel too far ( which I don't believe is the case). It would appear that the 'cavity' for the main valve must be precise to properly align the main valve. With no main valve, the shuttle will easily travel to the innermost position, which brings the center main valve recess past the opening(s) of the elongated cavity.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi Bill, 
With your last test of the pilot valve the problem seams to be as you said the main valve. I think the drilling error you made is causing the problem. If you have a two of the drills you used to drill the holes for the port face you can measure the distance between the sets of holes. Measure the total distance and the distance between the middle hole and the other two holes. 

With this information I can hopefully draw up a new main slide valve to work with the port face as it is. I will do the drawing in both positions so you will see the workings. This is of course assuming that the pump is like the drawings with only the port face as an error. 

Cheers Dan


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I may have hit on the problem, I've been in the shop making a new shuttle valve and preparing to try to mill a bit in the oblong cavity. Trying to think of ways to 'look inside' and came up with this idea: I put a wee, tiny, dab of CA (superglue) on the back of the main valve and stuck it in position on the shuttle valve. I then used two long 2-56 bolts and started them into the port face. This allowed me to work the shuttle valve from either end (caps off) and observe the main valve, through the tiny space, in relation to the port face holes. Much to my chagrin, I found the cavity....in one direction....did not allow the main valve to cover the exhaust and intake hole, 'short' by about maybe 1/32d. I think to get a more precise cavity, one would be better to measure the face and prick punch center points and then partially drilling the 3 -1/4" holes before milling. I drilled the center 1/4" hole and then milled in either direction. Since I'm 'milling' with a homemade milling attachment on my lathe, it's difficult to get the precision. Doesn't have to be much off, not to work!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Studies the plans a bit. I like #1 and #3. They appear straight forward and no tricks. Maybe try #1 before the micro surgery.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I thought a little update might be in order. Of course Spring having sprung here, it's time to fix every piece of equipment I have to do lawn work. Amazing what Winter does to stuff! Well, I've remade several parts and worked over some others. I can report it's still not working properly! The main problem is getting an adequate seal in the pump end so as not to allow air to escape. This is what drives the piston upward. Getting a good seal makes the piston(actually the gland to 3/16th's rod) too stiff. Currently, I'm using teflon tape, sliced in tiny strips. Pehaps I need the graphite. I can say that the pilot valve and shuttle valve seems O.K. I can add about 5lbs air pressure, and working the pilot valve by hand, the shuttle valve happily chugs back and forth....making a neat little chuffing sound! The error in the port face was corrected by tapping, plugging, with a piece of 2-56 bolt, smoothing the surface and properly redrilling. I also enlarged the exhaust hole a bit, which seems to allow the shuttle valve to operate better. And, Bob, I agree, This pump is so small, it's very diffult to make some of the parts. Turning down 1/16th rod, for example! One needs special collets, etc. for this smallish stuff. And, don't use drill rod, it rusts! Find 1/16 stainless steel.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Finally making some progress with this little pump. I was about to give up on this thing working...at all...but little successes give one encouragement. I finally got the main cylinder/piston to work! Blow-by and air leakage was giving me fits. I finally found an 'O' ring that would fit even though I thought it too tight. The 3/16th's gland kept leaking air. I finaly got that stopped using a small piece of graphite packing. By applying about 5lbs of air to the port face, I can now get the piston to go in both directions. This seems odd as the piston is rather difficult to move by hand. By now, I've accumulated quit a few parts that I've remade. Eventually, I'll try some pics to hopefully provide aid to others. Once again, this one is difficult due to its small parts.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Worked on this pump today, progress is slow, partly a learning curve. I use this regulator hooked up to my big compressor so I can hold pressure and volume. I tried filling one of the smaller tire air tanks but couldn't maintain pressure/volume long enough to test. I found the shuttle valve was sticking at one end and the main valve was binding. I've probably disassembled/assembled this thing 100 times by now. Think I'm getting near to getting it to work. If I maintain 20lbs of constant pressure and work the pilot valve by hand, the shuttle valve can be heard and felt to, more or less, 'slam' back and forth. However the main piston still needs a little hand 'nudge' to move. When the main parts are separated, the main piston moves with only 5 or so psi. When together, 20 lbs won't easily move the piston.....haven't figured that one out!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Slow but sure progress. Stay the course. These things usually need to just get started and run a lot. They work their own problems out.

I got that plan set and want to do one.

Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

The crew is getting ready to load the pump and take it out to the donkey. I had to rebuild the main port/cylinder assembly due to a leak between the exhaust and downstroke port. The plans actually call for a casting, but say it can be built up. A nearly perfect solder joint is required..and proper fit of the pieces, of course....due to the short distance (a 1/16, or so) between the steam/exhaust ports. I wound up using leather for ring and packing material, nothing else seemed to work due to the small size. The pilot and main valve are an easy sliding fit with no friction felt by hand. It now works as fast as I can move the pilot valve. Still some tweaking to do but happy thus far. Still think Bob was right, the larger version would have been easier for a first!

All of a sudden, I'm unable to load pics from PhotoBucket, even though it shows up on the message........most frustrating!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for taking this on and sharing your difficulties. Unfortunately, someone has to walk point into the ambush. At least everyone else can head off the problems you ran into. Stay the course, it will work.


vr Bob


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)




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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Let me try again


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I can finally report an 'Aha moment'. I just got through.... finally......getting the little pump cylinder to work! I must say it's pretty cool watching the thing click and chug away. I think I'm expert now in how many ways they don't work. Now I must build a lubricator and run it in thouroughly, before going to the next step. As of now, it starts running on its own at about 10 lbs air and I've going no higher than 20 lbs psi. It probably goes without explanation.....having an incredible grasp of the obvious, as I do.....that the linkage is quite critical in getting it to work. I've spent hours tweaking with just that to get it to work.
[url="


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Good news Bill, really good news. Let it run for a while and it will wear in. I suppose next test is pump water against pressure. For now, have a beer!


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks, Bob.......I will! Ran it a bit today, adding a few drops of 3 and 1 oil, to start. At first, it wouldn't run with the pump housing installed. After several minutes, going up to about 15 lbs psi, I added the housing...well oiled..and found it will run. No plumbing attached at this point. After maybe 10 minutes total running, including a few air leaks..... it will just 'chug' over on 6/7 lbs psi. Quite fast at at 18/20 lbs! I need a few more fittings, etc, to test the actual pumping. Thinking maybe a fuel pump/vacuum auto guage might work. I've started another one which I hope to photograph in stages and post later. My 'homemade' milling machine is a bit slow, able to advance only by thousands.
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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

She pumps water! Think I'll pop a top, or two to celebrate! When I got the pump running (still on air with 2 drops of 3 &1 oil), I ran it up to about 25 lbs pressure to overcome the new pump seal. Didn't want to do anything, finally I submerged the pump in my little bucket of water which I guess primed it.......and she started shooting water. At this point, nothing is really snugged up while I let stuff settle in. I've had to take the main valve out and polish the face at least 50 times....it's a no friction fit! You'll note...being lazy and uncertain of the outcome, I used 2 3/16th's check valves from The Steam Chest instead of following the plans. I thought the fittings didn't look at all scale. 
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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, Bill. Looking good. The ultimate test comes when its hooked up.

Bob


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