# Simplifing R/C options, please..



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok, I'm sure this question has been answered millions of times, but when I do a search I dont get everything in one convenient place so I am going to attempt to get it here. 

First, I am a beginner when it comes to Large Scale. I have been in HO for many years, but I now want to branch out into the great outdoors. After much research I have decided one thing for sure, I am going to RC/Battery control. I have spent countless hours on my HO layout cleaning track, I am not going to do it on this new layout. BUT, I am confused on the options I have...so here goes. What are my options?

CVP Products AirWire - I not sure the features and what do you use for a "controller"

Aristo Craft Train Engineer - I have looked at their product but the operating system seems clumsy. I have a lot of experience in DCC and this system seems too restrictive.

NCE Gwire - I'm not sure about this one. Can it be used in battery operation? I have familiar with the controller because my MR Club has the NCE system on the HO layout. If I can run it with battery power I am steering toward this one because of it familiarity and coupling it with QSI sound.

RCS Control - From a resident contributer here, Tony. I cant remember the name of his product and I am aware that uses a controller built for controlling RC aircraft. I'll be honest I'm not so keen on this one, I would prefer a setup that uses a controller built specifically for my hobby. I dont like conversion stuff, there always seems to be a problem somewhere in the conversion. But, I am open to this option.

Finally, I'm a little shaky as to the components needed to convert a locomotive over to battery power. I need a Radio Receiver board, sound/motor control board, batteries, and of course the R/C system. That it??

Some suggestions and such would be helpful, thanks in advance.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I use the Aristo TE Revolution and although I have never MU'd or used with sound system - I am satisfied. The transmitter uses up batteries pretty quick and even with a plug for charging them, AC has not supplied us with the charger! ???? wsup wit dat? 

WELCOME ABOARD!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Some suggestions and such would be helpful

First, Welcome! 
and here's a hint - use Google's 'site specific' search to find things here! I searched for "site:mylargescale.com which is best battery radio control system" and got a few useful threads which will fill in some blanks for you. 

For the basics, there's a 2MB .PDF file here *ECLSTS R/C Seminar PDF* from a seminar I did a few years ago. And let me say you will LOVE r/c-battery operation, ignoring the track cleaning issue! 

The components are (1) a transmitter (TX), (2) a receiver (RX) and (3) batteries. Most of our systems have the motor control and receiver in one package. Sound is optional - but the sound boards are usually easy to hook to the motor control/rcvr. Finding space for everything is fun. 

If you are a DCC maven, then you might like the Airwire. NCE makes a transmitter that is compatible and better than CVP's version, so I'm told. Again, if you are familiar with NCE I'd start there. This thread has a discussion: *What Battery RC system do you recomend?* 

I personally use the old RCS Elite system with the cigarette-pack TX. I am not a fan of toting around a Spektrum TX designed for aircraft, though I'm sure it works fine. 

I have one loco with Aristo's Train Engineer and the new Revolution system seems to work - lots of guys reporting on it. 

Your job is much easier these days due to the advent of the 'super socket'. Most new locos include a socket where you can plug in an after-market RX and sound system. Even if you don't use it, the socket brings all the wiring to one place where you can get at it. You switch off/disconnect the track pickups, install batteries, plug everything in and away you go. 

One last point - our garden railway trains use different voltages from HO - some operate well on 14V and others need 24V. I have 2 paint-gun battery packs of 9 sub-C NiMH cells each in my big Mikado, totalling 21.6V. Most Bachmann locos are happy with 2 x 7.2V race car packs.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the quick response. I will definately look into the links you provided and post feedback when I have some.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with the previous post about AirWire but I prefer their transmitter. It is guaranteed to be 100% compatable with their receiver. If you want sound, the best trick with the AirWire receiver is the Phoenix P-8. This way, all of your experience with DCC applies here except there is no track pickup to worry about.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Jake - As you will soon see, there are a lot of options. 

G-Scale Graphics has some options you should check out, ranging from extremely simple to full functioned. For radio control we do use the latest 2.4GHZ hobby radios with our *RailBoss *system. No channels or frequencies to be concerned with, and no interference. And unique to G-Scale Graphics, we offer automated station stops for battery power. 

Do your homework before you jump in. But you won't regret going with battery power.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you're used to DCC and its capabilities, then go with either of the two DCC-based systems. The Revolution is a very good system, but with only 6 functions, it's not quite up to DCC standards in that regard. That leaves you either the Airwire or QSI systems. The Airwire G-2--their current board--is a receiver and throttle combined. You have to supply a 3rd-party sound system for it. It provides both DCC and "traditional" triggers for the sounds, so pretty much any of the common sound systems (Phoenix, Sierra, Dallee, MyLocoSound, etc.) will work with it. I use Phoenix with mine, as it accepts the DCC inputs. (More sounds, etc. via the DCC input as opposed to the analog triggers.) The QSI is a throttle/sound system, and you need to attach the G-wire receiver to it in order to run via batteries. Both systems will operate either with Airwire's two transmitters or the NCE handheld G-wire transmitter. The fly in the ointment--you cannot _fully_ program the Airwire boards with the NCE controller, so if you're going to use the Airwire board, you'll have buy, beg, borrow, or steal one of their handheld throttles to things set up initially. (Especially if you wanted to do something silly like set the loco's address.) 

QSI is the smallest form factor of the two systems. The G-wire receiver that plugs into it is rather small, too, so you can easily fit that into very tight spaces. It's a very full-featured decoder, and lets you do lots of things. QSI has a fairly extensive sound library, and if you get their PC-based programming software (highly recommended!) you can go in and daisy-pick which bell, whistle, airpump, etc. you want (horn, prime mover, etc. for diesel folks). Lots of folks here use it, and pretty much all of them swear by it. I've found a few deficiencies for some of my specific purposes, but nothing dealbreaking. 

The G-2 board is a bit larger, though the board can be split in two for tight installations. (They also make other forms of the board which may work better in this or that installation.) It's major advantage over the QSI board is its ability to work with 3rd-party sound systems, allowing you some freedom of choice in that regard. One could argue this is primarily advantageous for someone upgrading their throttles, who have older sound systems already, though the flexibility in choosing which price-point of sound you want has its advantages. The G-2/Phoenix combination is about $70 more than the QSI/G-wire combination, but if you're looking for a specific sound or feature of the Phoenix that QSI doesn't offer (automatic directional whistle toots in my case) it may be worth the expense for you. The G-2 with less expensive systems brings the cost below the QSI/G-wire. 

I use both systems, and there's no one clear winner. If you're going to go QSI/G-wire, then go with the NCE transmitter. The Airwire transmitters work very well, but the NCE provides additional functions, macros, etc. that the Airwire transmitters do not. If you're going to go Airwire, buy the older RF-1300 transmitter to program things, then use the NCE to actually control them. Some of the macros and shortcuts on the NCE don't work with the Airwire boards, but most of the basic functions do. 

Good luck! 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake, 
It will take you a little while to digest all that is available for your selection. 

I would like to point out, that whilst you personally may not like the stick radios I use as the control medium for my RCS ESC's, like Del, I can only say that they are *very* low cost and *very* reliable and offer the longest range of all R/C systems. 
Plus, they offer control options not available in other forms of R/C. 
Digital proportional stick radios are the medium of choice for operating live steam locos with R/C. If you ever decide to get involved with Live Steam locos and choose to R/C them, stick radios will be the choice. 
I make the best R/C ESC's for those types of radios.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake,
Do you have a particular locomotive in mind for your first install?


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Its good that I get such a wealth of knowledge so quickly. Thanks to all of you. 

I've been looking at a lot of info and although I dont want to "knock" on Del or Tony, because I think those are very nice systems. I am going to go with a Airwire system. My reasoning is my extensive experience in DCC. My home HO layout is a Digitrax, the clubs layout is NCE. And I have installed a lot of various decorders and programmed them in my own locomotives and for others. I worked with all of the sound decoders so I'm confortable with working with them, plus I already have the QSI program I use for my HO locomotives. With that knowledge I think I would be able to use the Airwire system pretty easily. As for the controller, I was steering towards the NCE Gwire but I'm not sure since it wont be able to use some things on the G-2 (thanks for that Greg). I'll have to look further into that. 

I have a Bachmann "Connie" with a Sierra sound system already installed. The G-2 would be my choice for that loco. I also have a Bachmann K-27 which is a pretty easy install, as it has p-n-p features (mostly) and I'm open to either way. I'm curious about the Phoenix Sound system, I've never heard it in real life. I've always been impressed with QSI's sound cards in HO and was naturally steering toward them in large scale.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You can go to Phoenix's web site to hear samples of their sounds. Like QSI, they have a computer interface that you can use to program the sounds on the board. The biggest difference is that with QSI, you can daisy-pick individual elements from all their various sound sets, whereas with Phoenix, you have to choose the entire sound set. Not a huge deal, because they've got a very large library. 

The Bachmann K works quite well with the QSI, though you won't be able to turn the marker lights or cab lights on or off via DCC. If you want different sounds, you can then customize that via the PC. I think you've got to do something with the optical chuff to get the QSI system to read that input as well, or you can use the QSI's motor-controlled chuff instead. 

Later, 

K


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake,
I have around 20 locomotives all equipped with Airwire and Phoenix P5 or P8 sound systems. The combination works very well together. If you go with Phoenix there will be an additional initial expense to get set up with their computer interface but it is well worth it because of all the different settings you can use to customize the sound for a particular locomotive. Also if you want some special lighting effects a Train Control Systems FL4 decoder,also DCC, can be installed to provide that.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Paul, where are you attaching the FL4? I've not had to cross that bridge yet, and Airwire's literature is a bit thin in that department. Does that piggyback on the same DCC output as the Phoenix? 

Later, 

K


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By East Broad Top on 22 Dec 2010 02:24 AM 


The Bachmann K works quite well with the QSI, though you won't be able to turn the marker lights or cab lights on or off via DCC. If you want different sounds, you can then customize that via the PC. I think you've got to do something with the optical chuff to get the QSI system to read that input as well, or you can use the QSI's motor-controlled chuff instead. 

Later, 

K 

Does the Airwire/Phoenix combination allow you to turn the marker/cab lights on/off? I am assuming that all the wire connections for those functions goes back to the board back in the tender and I should be able to hardwire those functions to a QSI board to get the capability.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

If you use the FL4 it just piggybacks with the Phoenix on the DCC output. When you install one don't forget to set CV1 again for its address.
Jake,
The Airwire G2 has a couple aux. outputs that you can use for on/off functions. They will pass on the same battery voltage that you have connected to the Airwire decoder so you may have to account for that in whatever you are using them for. Same goes for the FL4.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake, 

I have AirWire and Phoenix P5 in my Accucraft C19 and yes, I can turn-on and turn-off my marker and cab lights with that combination. Jonathan Bliese at EMW did my install.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks, Paul! 

Later, 

K


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By Paul Burch on 22 Dec 2010 11:12 AM 
Jake,
The Airwire G2 has a couple aux. outputs that you can use for on/off functions. They will pass on the same battery voltage that you have connected to the Airwire decoder so you may have to account for that in whatever you are using them for. Same goes for the FL4. 


So your talking about having to insert a resistor to step down the voltage, similar to mini incandesent (sp?) blubs in HO DCC decoder installations?


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jake3404 on 22 Dec 2010 04:23 PM
So your talking about having to insert a resistor to step down the voltage, similar to mini incandesent (sp?) blubs in HO DCC decoder installations? Yup, that's the way to do it, Jake. You may need to check the polarity of the outputs. If it reverses, you may need a bridge rectifier in line on the output side to maintain a "constant on" for the lights. 


Here's a link to the G2 brochure. 

Page two shows the output pins


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Be careful, resistors don't quite work the same way with incandescents as LEDs... 

LEDs work on constant current, so you calculate the resistor based on this. 

Incandescents work on constant voltage, and you normally have to have a regulated voltage to not burn them out... 

Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Good thing to remember Greg. I have burned out a few bulbs in my HO installs by calculating wrong. 

To switch gears back to Airwire, someone mentioned being able to use standard Sound boards with this setup. Just so I'm clear that doesnt mean you can use a sound decoder from say the SoundTraxx Tsunami line for HO scale, right? It would seem to me you would have the correct voltages and would burn out the decoder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a number of different questions and answers in your questions. 

The Airwire decoders have a "dcc" output that can drive other decoders. The voltage you supply your Airwire decoder with drives what voltage a DCC sound decoder gets. So, don't use a decoder and/or voltage that is not compatible. 

The Tsunami seems to rely being connected to the motor to derive it's synchronization of sounds, not just DCC speed commands. This needs to be verified by someone who is an expert in Tsunami's. 

The HO tsunami does not like anything approaching 20 volts. 

Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Sorry, I didnt word my question real good. But you answered what I was getting at. I was concerned about operating voltages of Large Scale as opposed to HO, which is a lot different and was concerned about burning out a sound board meant for HO.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I do my best at reading between the lines! 

Most HO decoders will not like LS voltages. 

Regards, Greg


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