# Mallard is not the fastest!



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

mallard claims the fame to the worlds fastest steam loco, at 126 MPH, but few know that PRR e7s 7002 acheived the speed of 127 MPH. why has history not been corrected?


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Because it was an un-substantiated - and therefore invalid - claim.

From Wikipedia ...........

" 7002 was claimed to have achieved 127.1 miles per hour (204.5 km/h) near Elida but this speed was based solely on two passing times recorded by separate observers at two different points (AY Tower and Elida) just 3 miles apart, and it is *difficult to obtain even a general indication of a train`s speed* from signal box registers."

It's unlikely that a locomotive of that age and configuration could exceed 80 mph.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

And in case you wondered, Mallard was towing a special short train including the LNER Dynamometer coach (which can be seen in the UK NRM,) with a calibrated speed recorder. 
On board was the Chief Engineer and Designer of the loco, Sir Nigel Gresley, and various other senior officials . 

That being said, the test was down a long hill, and Mallard was taken off the train at the next station with a valve gear bearing problem. Not quite the same as the "average of 2 runs in opposite directions " needed for a land speed record!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> That being said, the test was down a long hill, and Mallard was taken off the train at the next station with a valve gear bearing problem. Not quite the same as the "average of 2 runs in opposite directions " needed for a land speed record!


Was it not a big end bearing that gave the problem?
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i'd bet a million that if you did the same test with a PRR t-1,or a milwaukee road f-7 100 4-6-4 it would leave mallard in the dust.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I've always heard it was the T1s that were routinely cresting 130+mph but the Pennsylvania suits steadfastly brushed off the claims saying "we're not in the records business"


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i once read this journal by a PRR engineer, and it included a story of one T1,s last run. the engineer claimed the locomotive to reach 134 MPH .he was threatened by the stationmaster at the next station that he may lose his job "for such an unecessary action"


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard the T1s were good candidates for the record, and I enjoyed the article Nate mentioned about the "last run ".
So let's support the T1 'new build ' so they can try for the record.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete

Never will try for the record. Probably no track on a class 1 good enough, and the FRA safety sanctions would preclude a railroad risking it on their property. Too many lawyers!!


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## harvey (Dec 30, 2008)

I think there has been quite a lot of debate about these speed records over the years and I think the GWR had some engine that would have been capable of giving Mallard a run for it's money. That being said I would like to add that I have fond memories of the NE mainline at Newark north where the old LNER line crosses the LMS on a diamond, remember these are double tracks in both directions. The speed limit across the diamond was and still is 100 MPH. After crossing the river Trent about a mile north of the diamond the Scotland-London trains have to slow down to 100MPH for the diamond. I was there about ten years ago and it was just as much of a thrill then as it was when I was a kid. On my last visit there were track crews there doing alignment on the diamond which they apparently have to do every week as the whole assembly try's to turn clockwise due to impact. 
Well worth visiting if you ever get the opportunity and yes because its railway property you would be considered a trespasser. Who Knew?


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Apart from the safety and legal issues with trying to break Mallard's record - I think there would be a big problem in finding suitable track. Not only does it have to be relatively straight and accurately laid, but it also has to be resiliant enough to absorb the out of balance forces assosiated with reciprocating steam engines, otherwise known as 'hammer blow'.

Back in Mallard's day the tracks were laid with relatively soft wooden ties (sleepers) which had the required resiliance to absorb 'hammer blow'.

On modern tracks with rigid concrete ties designed for electric traction, the speed of a steam locomotive has to be restricted to far below that required for any record attempt, otherwise unacceptable damage would be done to both the track and the locomotive.

It's sad in one way that we shall probably never see another steam record breaker - but on the other hand - it's kinda nice to think that Mallard won't ever loose her record.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

lets give that blue steamlined tin can a run for her money!'

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwbMJnE0lQk#t=187


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

The reason behind the Duplex drive was to reduce hammer blow to acceptable proportions on big engines (IE: 4-8-4). So I don't think that what you worry about John would be an issue, and I traveled a couple of months ago from New York city to Flagstaff ,AZ.and back on Amtrack Cardinal and Southwest Chief and back on Cheif and Capitol limited and Pennsylvanian, outside of the North East corridor it was mainly wooden ties and pretty good track, considering we were sleeping in a double decker car.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

The Milwaukee Road Atlantics and Baltics were fitted with Barco speed recorders with dials pegged at 0 and 128 mph. There were several accounts of considerable distances run with the needle pegged at 128. The American roads shied away from claiming a record for good reason. The lines with trains frequently holding 100 mph or better had lots of unprotected grade crossings, and the Interstate Commerce Commission had the power to impose speed limits, which indeed it did on most lines after World War II. The railroads which ran really fast didn't want the feds to clamp down. In addition to the Milwaukee Road speedsters and Pennsy T-1s there were the C&NW and Santa Fe Hudsons, for instance, which were very fast indeed. We will never know what the actual record is.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

We may never see a new record but one can get the sense of what it was like by watching the anniversary celebration run of Mallard's record breaking 126mph run in 1938, sister A4 4464 Bittern was temporarily permitted to exceed from 75mph to 90mph (144.84 km/h) on the mainline
which topped out at 94.5 mph


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

in a way, i feel malllard only has the "official" record. i am 100 percent sure a pennsy t-1 topped 126 at some point. another thing to add is that, theoretically, even W.W.&F. 9 could beat the record. with a 100 mile long perfectly straight track with a grade around 5% it coulld work.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> in a way, i feel malllard only has the "official" record. i am 100 percent sure a pennsy t-1 topped 126 at some point. another thing to add is that, theoretically, *even W.W.&F. 9 could beat the record. with a 100 mile long perfectly straight track with a grade around 5% it coulld work*.


Nate
That's a good one....got me going for a moment, glad you have a sense of humor!


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Well theoretically speaking of course - there might not be enough oxygen to get the fire going at the top of a 100 mile 5% grade.

But if you just let her run free she might top out at 45 mph - and if you took the side rods off she might even make another 15 mph ....


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah, but then there would be less air resistance 5 miles up so it would get up to speed quicker. 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

guys this is the solution


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

if you couple, say 1361(we're pretending shes restored people), to the end of the amtak acela and she has steam and you crack open the throttle, and the acela was going 130 mph, would she be the worlds fastest?


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Why settle for the Acela? The TGV could get her up to 200mph.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Folks;

I'd like to add some information regarding the "hammer blow" (dynamic augment). People seem to think that it had a negative effect on the rail.

Back in 1981/82, as the technical writer for the NW Computer Services Department, I was assigned the task of creating a data collection procedures manual for NW's Plasser track geometry car. I had to work closely with the systems analyst on this project and also make several trips on the track geometry car itself. The problem at the time was that the relatively new 100 ton capacity coal hoppers were beating up the track, which was mostly 132 pound to the yard rail.

When the data got analyzed, an interesting result appeared. Track that was put down during the steam era was resisting the onslaught of the 100 ton hoppers. The analysts decided that the dynamic augment from all those Ys, Js, As, and Ks had acted like a blacksmith tempering a piece of iron or steel. The rail head was "work hardened" and could survive the pounding from the 100 ton hopper cars. Of course, N&W steam locomotives were very well balanced, and perhaps that helped. But dynamic augment is not necessarily a negative effect.

Now back to the regular thread,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> guys this is the solution


Could the term 'banking' have a different meaning in the USA than the UK?
I'm not familiar with above technique of railroad operations. 

Andrew


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

That's how they illegally change the engine oil when nobody's looking. After it's all drained out, the just reverse it back on the track!


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

seadawg said:


> That's how they illegally change the engine oil when nobody's looking. After it's all drained out, the just reverse it back on the track!


That wouldn't work because it would be too hard to find the sump plug in all that dirt. 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

the shop crew got word that the inspection pit was out of service, so they had to improvise


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

the virginian didnt want to let union pacific have all the great ideas, so they invented door-to-door service









dave, that may work with wooden ties, but concrete is a whole different story(i think concrete ties are the ugliest and worst thing ),


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Nate

That logo belongs NOT to our beloved Virginian Railway of the US, but to Victorian Railways of AUSTRALIA. Oooooops!


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yep, its a Victorian Railways B class or S class.
My first HO engine. 










Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

oops..

could N&W 611 possibly beat her?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually straight track isn't really great for high speeds because the wheels tend to oscillate from one flange to another on, straight track taking up the side play between the gauge and the flanges. This creates a long sinusoidal movement between the left flange and the right one over a distance, I don't know the exact English term for this in French it's "mouvement de lacet". It ends up deforming the track.

Actually Linwood Moody claimed that some SR&RL engines used to clip along at 60 Mph, pretty good for two foot gauge! 

Reg is right the Milwaukee had some of the best steam runs ever just before WW2. His explanation for why the railroads in the US didn't advertise their speed exploits is very interesting. I had never understood why the Pennsy didn't exploit the obviously frequent runs at high speeds performed by the T1. Now I am beginning to understand why. 

Actually the problems linked with high speeds were most often not what we think they are (IE: the track) more like the signaling system and the block length, the system for setting off the RR crossing gates, and most of all the breaking system for the trains. One T1 fireman said that once when they were trying to make up the schedule they went so fast that they passed the crossing gates before they closed, it freaked them out.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Re: attaching an engine to a TGV.
There is a documented and you-tubed incident where Blue Peter, an A2, was allowed to spin its drivers on wet rail until the valve gear disintegrated. They reckoned it was spinning at the equivalent of 165 mph. 
So Acela - maybe. TGV -no.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Peter T
And the driver should have been executed on the spot for both incompetence and iron "horse" abuse. As I recall he was a BR employee with not a great deal of steam experience.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> oops..
> 
> could N&W 611 possibly beat her?


On her home track or host's track? 

Andrew


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Dr Rivet said:


> Peter T
> And the driver should have been executed on the spot for both incompetence and iron "horse" abuse. As I recall he was a BR employee with not a great deal of steam experience.


It was not entirely his fault. The throttle/reverser design played also a role. The engineer was also severely injured while trying to stop the beast.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f8_1387134457 
About the world record for steam locos:
The Germans attained the record in 1936 at 200.4km/h (124.5mph). Of course the Brits had to top that and ran the Mallard at 125.88 mph,returning the world record to England. However this was achieved on a downhill grade and after the run the Mallard was damaged.
Regards


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

HMeinhold said:


> It was not entirely his fault. The throttle/reverser design played also a role.


Sorry Henner, but reading that link shows that it was entirely his fault.
Okay, perhaps the fact that he did not know the locomotive helped.
As far as I know, that class of loco never seemed to have any problems when in regular service.
And what does "When the driver attempted to wind the reversing gear back into mid-position to halt the slip, the force of the boiler spun it into full-forward position," mean?
They didn't have power reversers, so why couldn't he get it to mid position.
All very sad really, as all it needs is for ONLY trained crews to run preserved locos.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I read that the crew overfilled it with water which caused the regulator to prime. That initiated a series of mishaps afterwards for the driver who was unfamiliar with that particular locomotive along with the speculation of him not wanting to stall the locomotive up a grade. 
I don't quite understand how a screw could be driven in reverse by the boiler either but I'm not so familiar with all the big stuff.

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i aslo read that ALL running gear components/fixtures had to be rebuilt or replaced. all of the drivers needed new tires pressed on, and one or two drivers had to be replaced(new ones were cast). i once saw an old film and i think it was at the worlds fair years ago where the rails were purposely greased and a dreyfuss hudson was allowed to spin in place

jim, an execution wont teach him a lesson, but having both arms broken will!



i find it kinda funny how far this thread has wanderd


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Garratt said:


> On her home track or host's track?
> 
> Andrew


i wouldnt trust leting our beloved J out of our sight. maybe somewhere on the northeast corridor.. no , we learned that the hard way with that dealdy crash..maybe on some old PRR trackage? that what the t-1's ran on..

or better yet, the D&SNG high line


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i aslo read that ALL running gear components/fixtures had to be rebuilt or replaced. all of the drivers needed new tires pressed on, and one or two drivers had to be replaced(new ones were cast)


I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is wrong. No new wheels were needed. One wheel shifted on its axle, but this was removed and refitted. A lot of the valve gear was bent beyond further use, but a lot was also repairable.

A report on the Durham incident from the locomotive's operators can be found on page 6 here:
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/163_october_1994.pdf
A later report appears on page 5 here:
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/166_april_1995.pdf

Detailed reports on the damage repairs can be found in the following under 60532 Blue Peter:
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/164_december_1994.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/165_february_1995.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/166_april_1995.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/167_june_1995.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/168_august_1995.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/169_october_1995.pdf
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/170_december_1995.pdf

The important things are: It was fixed. Those responsible paid for the damage. It ran again soon afterwards. Lessons were learnt that still apply 22 years later.

Moral: Don't believe everything you read on internet forums.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> -snip- i once saw an old film and i think it was at the worlds fair years ago where the rails were purposely greased and a dreyfuss hudson was allowed to spin in place
> 
> 
> Many railroads used a greased track to 'break in' rebuilt locos.
> ...


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

tony, thanks for clarifying the info. as you said before, not everything on the internet is true.

P.S. why dont british engines have bells?


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> P.S. why dont british engines have bells?


For the same reason they don't have headlights - most of the tracks are fenced, so there's not so much chance of running into things that shouldn't be on the line.

They put an enormous Indian railways style headlight on the Leek and Manifold locomotives because the designer had worked on a lot of colonial railways - but rumor has it that it was never lit.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

best ive seen a brit engine look

http://condrenrails.com/Flying-Scotsman/index.html


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine looks even better. Probably because it does not have that ugly headlight, bell, and that perfectly atrocious knuckle coupler.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate;

For some of us, British locomotives are an acquired taste. I love the beautiful liveries of the "Big Four": LNER, LMS, GWR, and Southern. The absence of bells, headlights, and pilots no longer bothers me. I still have a fair number of OO locomotives and rolling stock, even though I no longer have a place to run them. I also keep my membership in British Railway Modellers of North America (BRMNA) current. After all, even though my equipment is now set in Middle Earth, I still consider Middle Earth a part of the British Isles .

The LNER A4 does not look all that strange to me because my favorite speedster is the Reading Crusader train. The locomotive was streamlined in the Reading Railroad's steam shops in Reading, PA.










Regards,
David Meashey


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i was making a sarcastic comment about how ugly she looks with those on, ESPECIALLY the whistle mounted there. the "cow catcher" looks almost as bad


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Quite a few tests were made in the USA by Timken in order to evaluate what would happen with hammer blow at very high speeds, that is to say at speeds well over the margin of regular steam hauled passenger trains of the times. Systematic tests were made on locos fitted with roller bearings and locos fitted with ordinary bearings. A special camera was installed permitting to take films at 400 images per second and in order to attain rotation speeds up to 250 to 270km/h. without having to communicate to these test trains those speeds grease was applied to certain length of track. The test train was started towards those greased sections at a track speed of from 100 km/h to 130 km/h the drivers then started to spin the regulator being wide open. Many locomotives were tested among them were 4-6-4, 4-8-4 and 2-10-4 notably a hudson of the Burlington with 1,98M; diameter drivers which attained a maximum speed of 174Km/h damaged the track due to the hammer blow the drivers lifted off the rails 22MM. (almost an inch for drivers with over 32 tons per axle!)
Another Hudson with Timken roller bearings and lightened rods got up to 206 Km/h speed at which the drivers began lifting off the rails.
An ordinary 4-8-4 running at 125 km/h did no damage to the track and it's drivers lifted off at 165 km/h and another Northern with Timken bearings and lightened rods didn't harm the rails at 150 km/h and its wheels took off the rails at 185km/h
The Texas didn't deteriorate the track at 95km/h and its drivers lifted off the rails at 125km/h.
All the damage to the track structure was due to hammer blow, however during these tests the rod - crank system did well at the highest speeds of rotation.
This from La Locomotive à Vapeur et les Grandes Vitesse by L. M. Vilain éditions Dominique Vincent.
I knew the regretted monsieur Vilain quite well and he was both knowledgeable and accurate in his quoting of steam locomotive performance.
This by the way combined with what you can read in Mr West's Apex of the Atlantics pretty well sums it up and allows American rail fans to understand the goal pursued by the duplex drive developers. (Basically two Atlantics under a huge boiler). Sure there were problems to be solved but with two outside cylinder engines, if you wanted speeds there was no other alternative. In Europe with many multicylinder designs, you could get a lot more of the dynamic forces balanced out so the hammer blow effect was reduced (Another advantage for compounds, he he!)
Now that combined with the Dabeg poppet valves, which permitted running at high speeds with the gear linked way up, I seriously believe in the claim to high speed running for the T1. In fact I believe that the T1 probably did as good as the first generation TGV in steam with about 1000 tons payload and without spreading cobwebs over the track, and that back around the late forties. 







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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> P.S. why dont british engines have bells?


A few do and did...



























I can think of four UK locos that have visited the USA: GWR 6000 King George V, LMS 6100 Royal Scot, LMS 6220 Coronation and LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman. All of these were fitted with bells for or during their visits. On return to the UK both 6000 and 6100 retained their bells, as shown above. 6000 still carries its bell.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

have any USA locos visited the UK?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A minor side effect of the Blue Peter incident was the sight of dirty steam engines on the main lines. 

BR started retraining drivers (engineers ) on steam engines, which they had to borrow (rent?) They didn't clean them every day. It made an interesting photo op.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> have any USA locos visited the UK?












Not actually in the UK but this image had me puzzled once. Those buffers and vacuum lines do look weird. Climax 1653 is actually in Tasmania, originally ordered for New Zealand. 

Andrew


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> have any USA locos visited the UK?


The only ones I know of became residents in that they didn't go back! No standard gauge steam locos have been here, but there are these:

The Steel Company of Wales bought five Alco S1 switchers for use in their plant, but their use ended in 1983. Three are preserved.

Foster Yeoman bought an EMD SW1001 switcher in 1980 and Hanson bought another in 2000 for use in quarries, where they still work.

And then, of course, there are the 15 Class 59 (EMD), several hundred Class 66 (EMD) and 30 Class 70 (GE) main line diesel locos that roam the national network, but these were built to UK loading gauge so don't really count.

As for steam, there are a couple of standard gauge USATC S160 2-8-0s and a whole load of USATC S100 0-6-0s here that were built for the UK loading gauge. On narrow gauge the Ffestiniog Railway has an Alco 2-6-2T, the Brecon Mountain Railway has a Baldwin 4-6-2 and there are several Baldwin 4-6-0T locos. I'm sure there are others too.

The UK loading gauge prevents any standard gauge US rolling stock from being used as US stuff is just too big.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

TonyW said:


> The UK loading gauge prevents any standard gauge US rolling stock from being used as US stuff is just too big.


once 4014 is restored,lets bring her to the UK! ...


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Nate - here's a question for you - or anyone else that knows the answer ......

Why do most American steam engines have smokebox doors that are held shut with upwards of 30 screw clamps - and some, like the 'Daylight', appear to have two concentric doors with yet another ring of screw clamps to hold them?

British locomotives seem to achieve the same objective with a single central screw clamp with locking levers. This allows the door to be opened in less than 1/2 a minute compared to up to a 1/2 hour for the American type ....


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i have thought the same thing. i am not sure why, but it is kinda stupid the way USA smokeboxes are.
but just like not all UK engines dont have bells, not all USA engines have smokebox dogs to hold the door closed you can see the hadle behind the number plate


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

That is a good question. The Climax above only has six lugs to undo so not a big deal but some locomotives have many more. I assume it is to ensure there are no leaks to effect the 'draught' or should I say 'draft' in the US. 
My take on it is the Brits early engineering was a marvel in sophisticated design and aesthetics whereas perhaps one could say early American engineering was more about achieving things with a minimum of fuss to tame the new land. Different methods just became the norm later.

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i have noticed that a lot of branchline/ logging engines have way less dogs (AKA lugs) i one saw a B&W photo of a shay that only had 4.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

on 4449's smaller door(one with headlights there are *24* lugs!


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

It's just a 7/8ths meths model but must be modeled on something prototypical.










A quick way to check the potatoes maybe? 










Andrew


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Some, but not many, UK locos use dogs too...









The hinged-at-the-top design was used on some locos built in the late 19th/early 20th centuries but soon found to be difficult to use. Many locos were fitted with a replacement side-hinged door when renewal was necessary.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

This thread somehow slipped from speed records to narrow gauge and geared engines renown for their slow speeds. A very curious evolution... Well this is our hobby!


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

actually, from PRR 7002 and mallard to WW&F 9 to prr t-1 to blue peter to discussing blue peter wheelsip to smokebox doors to discussing how off track this has gotten


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

oops, and i forgot about us discussing UK loos visiting the USA


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The 'irony horse' of progressive train discussions.  OK, back on track...
Below is a sped up video of what Mallard would have looked like at 126 mph. 






Andrew


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## TravisEddy (Jul 10, 2010)

Somewhat off topic, but looking up speed records and the T1 etc led me here. Fastest modern steam. 


http://www.modellbahnen-aus-metall.de/website-in-english/br-18-201/

Is this actually happening? 

Found a YouTube video too

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoC_kjvSbE&feature=youtu.be

Hope they do produce it, a very interesting model.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

TravisEddy said:


> Somewhat off topic, but looking up speed records and the T1 etc led me here. *Fastest modern steam.
> *


I suppose it depends on what you call modern, but even if you say Mallard is not modern, her record at *125.88* mph is considerably faster than the German 18-201 could manage.

Wikipedia quotes - "On 11 October 1972 during a trial run it attained a top speed of 182,4 km/h or *113.3* mph. As a result, it is the fastest, *operational* steam locomotive in the world"

I'm not sure what they mean by 'operational' - surely they were both operational at the time they made their respective runs? ....


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## TravisEddy (Jul 10, 2010)

Sorry, to clarify, I read somewhere that it was the only operational engine allowed to do 100mph


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

The 18201 is still certified for 180km/h and still operating. So it is currently the fastest steam locomotive in the world. By the way, it has a quite interesting history. When passenger coaches in the 1960's had to be tested at speeds of 160km/h + 10% (110 mph) there were no spare locos available in East Germany. So they cobbled a loco together using parts from 3 engines from the scrap yard. The result was a pretty nice looking fast engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_18_201


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Im pretty sure the fastest would be the GS4 on Dr Rivet's layout lol:


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

According to Wikipedia, The Pennsy S1 with it's 84" drivers had alleged runs over 140 MPH


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you're all ducking the issue.
Nate's right, a Mallard is not the fastest. 
A Peregrine falcon is the fastest;
Average Horizontal Speed: 50-68 mph
Maximum Horizontal Speed: 90 mph
Maximum Air Speed: 242 mph (High speed dive - pointed long wings)
A Mallard doesn't even make the list of the fastest.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Uh Chris;

The thread is about steam locomotives, not birds. Your facts are interesting, but not relevant. The Mallard in this thread is a LNER A4 class streamlined Pacific, not a bird.

I suppose the PRR E class could have the record, but it was never "officially" clocked. I have seen the locomotive, and it has a really big boiler for an Atlantic type, SOoooo maybe it did go as fast as folks say. Too bad there were no radar guns back then.

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave Meashey said:


> Uh Chris;
> 
> The thread is about steam locomotives, not birds. Your facts are interesting, but not relevant. The Mallard in this thread is a LNER A4 class streamlined Pacific, not a bird.
> 
> ...


This is just to preserve this for posterity lest it should somehow go missing and therefore be subject to plausible deniability.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

uh, dave, im pretty sure chris intended it as a pun..


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I have seen things go WAY off on a tangent here (and I don't mean tangent track). Can't get the usual clues from tone of voice or facial expression from a thread.

I just thought somebody should set the record straight, in case the poster was being serious. That sort of thing has happened here before. No harm intended, just thought it looked like things were veering far off course.

My favorite speedster was the Reading G1sas Crusader locomotive. Don't think it ever set a speed record, but I just like it. If we still could access our first class photo files, I'd post a picture.

Again, It's just harder to see the tongue in cheek in a thread.

Regards,
David Meashey


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Mudhens got that moniker, I believe, due to the way they waddled down the track.

At least it's on some track.

John


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Scottychaos said:


> What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


African or European? 

Apologies, back to the thread..

Cheers
Neil


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Linwood Moody in the Maine Two Footers claims that the Rangely Lakes express often ran at 60 Mph. On two foot gauge! Thats making those tiny drivers really spin. I woulod bet that the Milwaukee F7, the PRR T1 and Santa Fe hudsons as well as the C&NW ones could beat Mallard. I never knew why the PRR wasn't in the record making business, Thanks Reg Stocking for giving us the expmlanation, it makes a lot of sens now.


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