# Accucraft - 1/32 will they ever stop?



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi,
As was drawn to our attention, Accucraft have updated their 'update' page:
*FUTURE RELEASES*
1. 1:32 Scale - Pennsylvania M1B 4-8-2, Alcohol Fired, Live Steam
2. 1:32 Scale - N&W J Class, Alcohol Fired, Live Steam
3. 1:32 Scale - SP P-8 4-6-2 #2472, Butane Fired, Live Steam
4. 1:32 Scale - ATSF 4-8-4 #3751, Butane Fired, Live Steam 

Great news, BUT where did these come from?
So very interesting to know who, and why, they are choosing certain models.
All the best,
David leech, Delta, Canada


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Contact Fred Devine (marketing manager) and ask him straight out... I should be seeing him tomorrow... fred's email is [email protected] (yeah, I don't have the 1:32 email, but he's the same guy)... 

Fred is very responsive and up front, but he does not post on forums. 

Regards, Greg


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Greg, guess I won't be needing those measurements on the AML K4 anymore.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
A follow up question could be; will Aster found a model for production (Southern PS4 1401) .

I found the Mountain to be the most interesting in that none had be done in live steam. The ATSF 4-8-4 would be a monster of an engine. Terry will be disappointed about that Northern relative to his favorite. We all know the history of releases and final productions.


I am disappoint with the SP 4-6-2 was hoping for the "All American Locomotive": (maybe Aster...)












Well, if 2 of them are released we will have coal fired boilers available for conversions! N&W 611 and PRR M1


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 May 2011 12:04 PM 
Contact Fred Devine (marketing manager) and ask him straight out... I should be seeing him tomorrow... fred's email is [email protected] (yeah, I don't have the 1:32 email, but he's the same guy)... 

Fred is very responsive and up front, but he does not post on forums. 

Regards, Greg 
Call Jerry Hyde, he is in charge of 1:32 production (unless there has been a change).


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

There goes the neighborhood. Better get cracking on the J project before a prototype comes out.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's see--wasn't it 3 1/2 years for the 4-4-0 to appear? Sounds like about four for the EBT mike. Plenty of time to speculate, I think (but then, there was that little plantation engine that appeared out of nowhere, so who knows?) 

These large prototypes are very impressive in any scale. However,I would think there would be a good demand for more common standard gauge engines, such as 4-6-2's and 2-8-0's, more suited to the train lengths and tracks most of us run on. West coast engines do seem to be favored, understandable considering that's where the prototypes for most of the produced models are. Just my musings--I'm still in shock from seeing the EBT mike photo. 

Larry


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Charles, not TOO disappointed with the choice of #3751 to tell the truth, not that it matters a jot to me as I'll be dust on the wind by the time it hits the dealers' shelves. 

At least its a 'LIVE' steamer, not one that is stuffed and plinthed in the wilderness... 

Either/or is fine - 3751 or 700 - especially since I'm now officially out of the purchasing loop and therefore only academically interested. 

You can have mine. 

Best 

tac 
http://www.ovgrs.org/ 

PS - over the last few days whenever I try and get on to the AccuCraft site - this is what I get - 

Access forbidden! 

You don't have permission to access the requested directory. There is either no index document or the directory is read-protected. 


If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster. 
Error 403 www.accucraftestore.com
Fri May 20 22:28:33 2011
Apache/2.2.11 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.11 OpenSSL/0.9.7e mod_auth_pgsql/2.0.3


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 20 May 2011 03:24 PM 
I'm now officially out of the purchasing loop and therefore only academically interested. 
So I'm left to carry the torch for the SP&S E-1/Northern Pacific A-3 on my own, eh? I guess if I really want one of those, I'll need to stop spending my money on engines and invest in a good set of machine tools instead. Of course, that's easier said than done when Accucraft keeps announcing tempting new stuff though!


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac, perhaps Accucraft cut you off because you said you are not buying any more locomotives? 

Larry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think the production guy makes the marketing decisions on what WILL be made. I could be wrong. Meeting with them tomorrow, so I will get up to speed on just how all this stuff comes about. I've had several talks with Bing, mostly 1:29 stuff, he's also very responsive and comprehends the technical details. 

AML made several improvements in things lately, actually all the ones on my "shopping list"... nice to see a manufacturer that connects customer wishes with increases sales... 

Greg


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg
"I don't think the production guy makes the marketing decisions on what WILL be made. I could be wrong" Whether are not Accucraft has well defined lines of command in their business structure is unknown to me. If Jerry is still with them, he does determines what is going to be made. In my discussions with Cliff on several inquires and suggests I have always been directed to Jerry Hyde for all things 1:32. Jerry put forth the CP Hudson, and PRR T-1 the most recent production model for 1:32. Cliff has been the motivating person for the emphasis on SP power. I do not know the structure of the company personnel but my guess is that Fred is more involved with the "American mainline" 1:29 production line. 


Not from Bing, but here is the reference to my queries:

So I can't say for sure what Jerry might come up
with in the future !

Best regards as always
Cliff 


I am sure the bottom line is in the hands of Bing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I really did a bad job of conveying what I wanted to say. 

My understanding is that there is a person out there working to figure out what people want and will sell.. and when this thread started, where the question was pretty much "why did they decide to make this"... that this would be the marketing end... which I understand is Fred... 

The production people, again as I understand it, are the people who can tell what is possible, and the costs... 

But I'll "get my mind right" tomorrow... in either case, I'll see if I can get the answer to what started this thread: "So very interesting to know who, and why, they are choosing certain models." 

Greg


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Seems to me like those models are all sensible choices. I just wish they were 1:29th scale. I love my AML 0-6-0, now I'm just hoping for something bigger (SP, UP, or ATSF).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, me too! 

There might be some variations on the 0-6-0 possible, which could be brought to the market quickly. 

Greg


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Larry Green on 20 May 2011 05:03 PM 
Tac, perhaps Accucraft cut you off because you said you are not buying any more locomotives? 

Larry 

Nossir - the present economic climate here in yUK that brought about the $12 gallon and 30% rise in the cost of living is what cut ME off. I've recently sold off a total of twenty-eight locomotives and almost a hundred items of rolling stock to 'rationalise' my little collection, and I'm not allowed to have any more guns [local county police rules]. 

We have to eat. Our monthly 'shopping basket' one year ago [excluding fuel] was just under $550. Yesterday it was just under $750 for the same items.

I steadfastly refuse to sell any more trains. The way things I going here I just might need all my guns, too.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I just wish they were 1:29th scale.
Well, in Live Steam, there are many more folk with 1/32nd scale models. None of the new models are electric. 

_Maybe it's time you switched to a "proper" scale/gauge environment?_


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I want an SP P8 4-6-2. It's a beautiful engine. Now I have to sell something to make room for it. They need to make some 'Harriman' style arch roof heavyweights to go with it.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I might be interested IF they did an alcohol version!!! 
Finescale Locomotive do the Harriman cars for you. 
Scroll to the lower part of the page: 
http://www.finescale-locomotive.co.uk/coach_pages/overseas.html 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 May 2011 07:11 PM 

But I'll "get my mind right" tomorrow... in either case, I'll see if I can get the answer to what started this thread: "So very interesting to know who, and why, they are choosing certain models." 

Greg 
So Greg,
Do you have an answer for us?????
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

The more important question is 'will they ever ship'  

Robert


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

David,

Unless their prices already have VAT included, the Finescale Harriman cars start at $1,400 and go up from there -- a bit stiff for some, me included. Wish someone would come up with a reasonably priced line of heavyweighht coaches.

Ross Schlabach


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Wish someone would come up with a reasonably priced line of heavyweighht coaches
Wouldn't MTH be the obvious candidate? The coaches could be used in their Railking line, and bought by live steamers as well? They already make modern streamliners, so heavyweights would be an obvious addition. 

But you 1/32nd guys would have to decide on one style of coach for all those different locos! Then get together an order for 100 coaches and tell them to get cracking.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 22 May 2011 09:26 AM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 May 2011 07:11 PM 

But I'll "get my mind right" tomorrow... in either case, I'll see if I can get the answer to what started this thread: "So very interesting to know who, and why, they are choosing certain models." 

Greg 
So Greg,
Do you have an answer for us?????
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

Hi Greg,
Perhaps you did not see my question from earlier!
Did you manage to get an answer for us?
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I did see it, and I also mentioned (either here or in another thread) I forgot to get the info! 

I still have Fred's laptop though, so I will get the answer! 

Was just too dang busy to get that discussion rolling, sorry. 

Greg


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Greg, 
Sorry, I must have missed that. 
Just curious as to whether there was an answer or not. 
I kind of expect a very strange response, like 'well someone decides'! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
The simple answer to that question has to be the CEO (if that is his title), Bing who makes the final decision. I doubt we will get any in-depth knowledge of how the choices are made and really do not think it is that insight would be for public knowledge for a number of reasons. At best an understanding of contacts "go to people" may be available for customers, more than likely to dealers. If I was running a company such as Accucraft internal decisions such would not be public knowledge(IMHO).


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By RP3 on 23 May 2011 08:28 AM 
David, Unless their prices already have VAT included, the Finescale Harriman cars start at $1,400 and go up from there -- a bit stiff for some, me included. Wish someone would come up with a reasonably priced line of heavyweighht coaches. Ross Schlabach Ross - unless otherwise stated, for trade/dealership reasons, all UK retail prices include 20% Vampire Addled Tax. This is because, unlike the US and CN, there are no different sales tax tariffs across the nation. So the $1400 [conversion] price would be less 20%, making them around the $1000 mark. However, I'm pretty certain that the price of shipping and insurance would easily whack that back up to the $1400-mark again. Why don't you e-mail them and ask?

You might just get a little discount for a bulk purchase of say, ten assorted cars.

Don't count on it, though. 

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 23 May 2011 08:42 AM 
Wish someone would come up with a reasonably priced line of heavyweighht coaches
Wouldn't MTH be the obvious candidate? The coaches could be used in their Railking line, and bought by live steamers as well? They already make modern streamliners, so heavyweights would be an obvious addition. 

But you 1/32nd guys would have to decide on one style of coach for all those different locos! Then get together an order for 100 coaches and tell them to get cracking. 
Pete - that sounds like a plan to me. It might just entice/pursuade MTH into making a Gauge 1 K4 with all the usual MTH doo-dads and enable the rest of Pennsy fans to run a proper passenger consist. I'm betting that MTH would be looking at a win/win here.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was digging out the K-27 pic for Tac and noticed the "Pre-Order" forms now on the update page. Were they there last week?


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Tac, 

Thanks for the breakdown on VAT, but as you pointed out, the price still gets up to close to $1,400 with shipping. Too rich for my blood. As mentioned earlier, I'm still hoping to locate heavyweights --even if I have to find old J&Ms one at a time. And still looking!!! 

Regards, 

Ross Schlabach


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 22 May 2011 09:20 AM 
I might be interested IF they did an alcohol version!!! 

David Leech, Delta, Canada 
Agreed... I would love another 16mm narrow gauge loco, but one that does not sound like a plasma cutter going down the rails. Why the 1:32 guys get meths and the 1:19 guys don't is beyond me.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Those all sound like great engines...I guess those are the most popular roads and the big stuff also most popular. There are however many who are not really able to afford the biggest engines or who prefer smaller or less mainline stuff. 

How about a really nice USRA pacific which could be outfitted differently for different "lesser" roads...Maine Central for example which would only have a relatively tiny but loyal following. Or some of those smaller restored engines: #90 at Strasburg or the beautiful old Pennsy #1223 (4-4-0 ca.1900) I am certain there were far more modest sized work horses running the country's rails than there were crack express engines...but where are they on the market?

we narrow gauge guys have access to some wonderful little stuff but no similar modestly sized engines exist in standard gauge except some switchers. Standard gauge probably has more of a following than the footnote narrow gauge lines.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Has it something to do with size of boiler? Is gas more efficient at heating a boiler, as opposed to meths? I am curious to know as well, why no narrow gauge engine is meths fired, both accucraft and Aster.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 23 May 2011 07:54 PM 
we narrow gauge guys have access to some wonderful little stuff but no similar modestly sized engines exist in standard gauge except some switchers. 

The recently announced 1:32 scale 2-6-0 and 4-6-2 from Accucraft fit that description, as long as you're an SP fan anyway. It would take a pretty significant amount of cosmetic surgery to convert the SP Pacific into a Maine Central engine though.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 23 May 2011 07:55 PM 
Has it something to do with size of boiler? Is gas more efficient at heating a boiler, as opposed to meths? I am curious to know as well, why no narrow gauge engine is meths fired, both accucraft and Aster. Jeremiah - here in UK Roundhouse used to make their locos alcohol fired until the beginning of the 1990's, IIRC. The switch over to gas seems to have happened almost overnight. The general consensus is that gas is easier to manage, as well as cheaper to build - the fire end of the boiler can be more linear in design with a gas burner, since they are mostly of the 'poke'r format - and the smokebox end can be open to the atmosphere instead of needing careful sealing - again an expense in construction. Also, an alcohol-fired loco needs 'real steam engine' fittings - a blower - yet more expense that is not needed in a little gas-fired NG loco. Even starting up an alcohol-fired loco needs additional equipment such as a draft fan - more expense, as you yourself noted. Remember, too, that over the last couple of decades folks have gotten used to the 'switch it on' mind-set, and it has to be said that alcohol firing needs more care and attention than a gas-fired model.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

In addition to Tac's reply, most of the 16mm are small tank engines. With alcohol you need the tank as far away from the burners as possible. Aster did the Panniers alcohol fired, and even though there is a layer of insulation on the front of the fuel tank, on a really hot day the ambient temperature combined with the heat of the burners and boiler can cause the fuel tank to presurise. This causes fuel to flow up and out of the vent tube and lighted fuel to overflow the pots causing track fires. It has happened to me on a couple of occassions. I have sealed off the rear burner and stuffed more than the reccomended number of wick strands into the pots to combat it. 

Rob Meadows


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see, thanks to Tac and Rob for the explanations. 

That part of "hands on" is why I went with Alcohol over gas, well it was a large contributer to my decision on fuel type. The addition of more "prototypical" controls was another.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Richard-- 

You are correct that the SP 4-6-0 is heading in the right direction as far as size is concerned and as probably half the live steamers in the country live within 100 miles of the SP will be pretty popular. for those of us who are not really SP fans the engine may do nothing for us any more than a really nicely made FL-9 deisel. 

I guess my feeling is that some lines are well represented most are not. Really a few prototypes are over-represented but most are ingnored The Daylight, cab forwards, Big Boys, NYC hudson and Pennsy K-4 are wonderful engines and should be available but there are many others that are not represented at all. Accucraft is doing well by building other prototypes, but perhaps other less spacific prototypes would be good sellers too. I suggest the Aster Mikado as an example of an engine that with minor modification would be seen many places in the US (and Canada?) 

Again, I feel that the smaller engines would find a good following (probably the reason the narrow gauge stuff is so popular) not everyone can afford or has room to operate big stuff in the proper style. I think there were more small to medium sized engines rumbling across the country than the big guys, so interesting and representive prototypes must abound. 

Certainly there is interest in the HUGE engines which are undoubtedly impressive but there is more to steam than just big size and high speed. Many lines had smaller "crack" trains with 4-4-0s, 2-6-0's, 4-6-0s, and 4-4-2's and 4-6-2's which were impecibly maintained and well turned out. Some of these smaller engines went on to serve on branch lines or as commuter haulers. Some hauled freight as well as passenger trains. I think these smaller engines would find good interest. 

I am not necessarily a typical consumer. However I feel that many people would agree that spending several thousand dollars on a locomotive that will not fit on their track and which need thousands more for a proper train is not in the cards. I look at the new offerings and say "Wow that is beautiful!" then flip the page to something else with a disappointed mind. Now...just because i want small and reasonable price doesnt mean I'll be happy with plastic bodywork or poor detail. 

Accucraft did well with its midsize narrowgauge steamers...good detail, good operation, and reasonable prices. Keep it up! but do not limit prototypes to too specific machines. Build some engines that are more generally useful...that would look right anywhere in the country hauling whatever cars we have. Choose right and they will have a winner! 


Sorry for the rant! We have to remember that Accucraft and others offer excellent products at really reasonable prices...the amount of work in one of their engines is staggering that they are ONLY a few thousand dollars is a real deal!

--Eric


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric
It is very difficult to do a "generic" offering of a locomotive. One might guess a USRA model would fit the bill. Aster took that approach offering a "plain Jane" 2-8-0 at a price that would be attractive in relative terms of cost. As I recalled it was many years later that all the units were sold. Many were not happy with the initial offering of a base model so Aster later added: detail kit, axle pump and finally the Southern Mike with all the bells and whistles as a complete package. Whether I have the facts correct or not, the point is offering would gives hobbyist 3-5 USRA models (depends on "small" locomotive being defined) that would have to be customized the owners for their desired particular road name:


USRA locomotives 


If I was to build a 4-4-0 it would be either based off the INYO or PRR D16b but that probably would not market well the masses (e.g. NYC Empire Express is not the same engine as the #1223 The Dayton and Inyo very similar had different height of drivers) so one most determine how best to match the market to a particular wheel alignment based on years of purchasing through hobbyist involved in other scales (IMHO). The Aster and the Challenger will probably sell much better per unit cost and return on the investment than a smaller engine (which would requirement many more units to be sold in order to make the profit- more units more production time and cost of kits or RTR offerings) but this is speculation for only those making the decisions and investment really understand what to bring to the hobby. As I stated before I would have chosen the Southern Ps4 Pacific over the SP Pacific (think about it, how many people world wide let alone US have been to the Smithsonian to see the "All-American" locomotive).


As to rivet counter vs if it runs properly offerings, again I reflect on the Aster Mike scenario..


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I hope Accucraft continues to make 1:32 scale locos until they make a model of the "General" (4-4-0... WITH BIG DRIVERS!) and at which point I'll buy one, unless Aster beats them to it... and after that I don't much care what they make.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 24 May 2011 08:52 AM 
Richard-- 

You are correct that the SP 4-6-0 is heading in the right direction as far as size is concerned and as probably half the live steamers in the country live within 100 miles of the SP will be pretty popular. for those of us who are not really SP fans the engine may do nothing for us any more than a really nicely made FL-9 deisel. 

I guess my feeling is that some lines are well represented most are not. Really a few prototypes are over-represented but most are ingnored The Daylight, cab forwards, Big Boys, NYC hudson and Pennsy K-4 are wonderful engines and should be available but there are many others that are not represented at all. Accucraft is doing well by building other prototypes, but perhaps other less spacific prototypes would be good sellers too. I suggest the Aster Mikado as an example of an engine that with minor modification would be seen many places in the US (and Canada?) 

Again, I feel that the smaller engines would find a good following (probably the reason the narrow gauge stuff is so popular) not everyone can afford or has room to operate big stuff in the proper style. I think there were more small to medium sized engines rumbling across the country than the big guys, so interesting and representive prototypes must abound. 

Certainly there is interest in the HUGE engines which are undoubtedly impressive but there is more to steam than just big size and high speed. Many lines had smaller "crack" trains with 4-4-0s, 2-6-0's, 4-6-0s, and 4-4-2's and 4-6-2's which were impecibly maintained and well turned out. Some of these smaller engines went on to serve on branch lines or as commuter haulers. Some hauled freight as well as passenger trains. I think these smaller engines would find good interest. 

I am not necessarily a typical consumer. However I feel that many people would agree that spending several thousand dollars on a locomotive that will not fit on their track and which need thousands more for a proper train is not in the cards. I look at the new offerings and say "Wow that is beautiful!" then flip the page to something else with a disappointed mind. Now...just because i want small and reasonable price doesnt mean I'll be happy with plastic bodywork or poor detail. 

Accucraft did well with its midsize narrowgauge steamers...good detail, good operation, and reasonable prices. Keep it up! but do not limit prototypes to too specific machines. Build some engines that are more generally useful...that would look right anywhere in the country hauling whatever cars we have. Choose right and they will have a winner! 


Sorry for the rant! We have to remember that Accucraft and others offer excellent products at really reasonable prices...the amount of work in one of their engines is staggering that they are ONLY a few thousand dollars is a real deal!

--Eric 
What he said.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 24 May 2011 10:18 AM 
Eric
It is very difficult to do a "generic" offering of a locomotive. One might guess a USRA model would fit the bill. Aster took that approach offering a "plain Jane" 2-8-0 at a price that would be attractive in relative terms of cost. 


Oh man, I must have missed that one.
Always wanted a Consolidation, and an Aster too.
But you don't mean the Japanese one, or the French one do you??? 
Oh, now I see, you meant 2-8-2!!!!
Anyway, back to the point of Generic locomotives.
From what I have gathered over the years from books and talking with people, on the whole, North American railroads seemed to like to 'do' things their own particular ways.
They liked to 'look' different from each other, especially when we get into the 30's and 40's.
So, other than the USRA locos, there is not a lot of real similarity.
Look in most average train books and you will see the more 'memorable' or 'outstanding' locomotives of the railroads, not the 'meat and potato' freight locos, especially the smaller ones.
So, mention a railroad name to someone, like NYC, and they will think Hudson, the PRR and probably the K4, the N&W and perhaps the J-class, and SP obviously the Daylight, so it's not surprising that that is what the manufacturers will build first.
The Aster Mikado, while a great running model was not really a 'hot' seller and as you pointed out took a lot longer to sell than the more unique locos, so I think that it is unlikely that we will see that approach in the future.
Personally speaking, I WANT my locos to look like something that was real.
I don't want a generic loco with Canadian Pacific painted on the tender, when it was nothing like the real loco.
But, that's just me!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
"Always wanted a Consolidation, and an Aster too." Must of been the sub-conscious speaking to me....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"Accucraft- 1/32 will they ever stop?"

Could be they may have no choice:

"In Yiyang, a town of 360,000 in south-central China, electricity shortages are so severe this spring that many homes and businesses receive power only one day in three." I do not know where the production is done but it seems electrical shortages could be wide spread: "And in a notable act of passive defiance, the power companies have scheduled an unusually large number of plants to close for maintenance this summer." Then comes the reality of costs.... "The lower productivity of factories, plus high diesel costs for those using generators, is likely to further raise average prices of American imports from China."

Even if the power companies get there way with rate increases, the end result could be raise of import prices and/or small companies unable to make a profit. For hobbyists increase of cost could mean less purchases thus less capital for the company and therefore less productions of 1:32 offerings.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, the Mikado might be Aster's "plain Jane", but it looks like a real locomotive and seems to be one great running model as David made mention to. BTW, Eric, you also made mention that Accucraft's offerings are thousands of dollars less, or something similar. I would argue that in today's offerings there is not a whole lot of price difference between some of Accucraft's higher end models like the fourth-coming GS4 and some asters. Look at the K36 that Accucraft still has stock of. It didn't sell out at 4 grand and now is just over 5 grand. Certainly the rubys and the fowlers are quite the difference in price, but look at what they are asking for the K4 with all options now. $3300. The Aster USRA Mikado kits went for just around 4 grand (at least that is what I am told) when they came out and you could build them. 

I'll be happy with my "plain Jane" 2-8-2. Might not have all the bells and whistles of the new EBT Mikado, but I rather like the look of the USRA one over the EBT.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be happy with my "plain Jane" 2-8-2. Might not have all the bells and whistles of the new EBT Mikado 
I rather suspect your Aster 2-8-2 will have a LOT more bells and whistles than my EBT Mikado. 

Aren't you in Edgewater? Wanna come over the river and see it (in a few weeks, if it ever gets here!)


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Orlando, and yes I would love to stop over if I can manage it. Speaking of locos that are not selling out. What is going on with the Aster Castle class? I have been told there are many left in stock.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 24 May 2011 02:47 PM 
Orlando, and yes I would love to stop over if I can manage it. Speaking of locos that are not selling out. What is going on with the Aster Castle class? I have been told there are many left in stock. Who told you that?

I'm sure that Mr Pullen [Aster Hobbies UK] has a horse in this race.

On the other paw, it wouldn't amaze me to learn that there are some unsold in the US - it is hardly a hot-bed of British Great Western Railway fans.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Perhaps it is only over here then. I was told this by someone at a steam up in February. I also know they are still available here if one wanted one.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Could be - I know very few folks in G1 here in yUK, but even so, that small number own at least eight Castles. To tell the truth, I wouldn't really have expected them to fly off the shelves in the USA or even Canada. 

Perhaps the two Canadian dealers might care to comment? 

Remember, though, that this thread was about AccuCraft......perhaps we ought to begin a new thread about live-steam locomotive sales figures, although I'm pretty certain that dealers do not care to be visibly wrong-footed. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Accucraft should make an alcohol fired 5MT.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree with the comments about what will sell verses level of fidelity to prototype to an extent. For those fans of "off"brand railroads, a typical USRA like the Aster Mikado is far better than a prototype engine which was very unique to a certain road. A standard USRA light pacific would sure look better painted green with Southern Railway herald printed on the tender than a NYC Hudson or even a Pennsy K-4 painted green with a Southern Railway herald. I'm just saying.... rivet counters would hang their head in shame trying that stunt! Meanwhile they have no choices! 

I do suspect large engines, like SUVs offer more profit than small engines or sub-compact cars. But I would think they also require more up front cost to develop and manufacture. the cab forwards and big-boys have so much more complicated detail than a 1920's Atlantic or modern 4-4-0 that the up their front development costs and manufacturing costs are probably many times higher. 

I am sure that the minds at Accucraft could come up with a unique model of an appealing modestly sized prototype which would out sell the big guys. Hiding as I am up in the top right hand corner of this great country, I am not the guy to choose the candidate prototype but it is there waiting for all! I would suggest theychoose a model which would sell in the $1500 price range, make it really nice looking and not too specialized a prototype. Make it Standard gauge and I do not think they could keep em in stock.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric
" I would suggest theychoose a model which would sell in the $1500 price range, make it really nice looking and not too specialized a prototype. Make it Standard gauge and I do not think they could keep em in stock." 
That is a tall order. I can't see a D16sb for that price nor the INYO (given the NG 4-4-0 prices). Given the USRA selection of wheel arrangement even the 0-6-0 could not meet that price in your criteria for a production. If you find the engine you are correct about Accucraft would not be able to keep em in stock!!


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, I probably dont know what things really cost...I just named a price. 

the Idea is to keep the price and size in line, not go to the fanciest or biggest first. I am sure they could work it out to be the best for all.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 24 May 2011 03:10 AM 
Jeremiah - here in UK Roundhouse used to make their locos alcohol fired until the beginning of the 1990's, IIRC. Remember, too, that over the last couple of decades folks have gotten used to the 'switch it on' mind-set, and it has to be said that alcohol firing needs more care and attention than a gas-fired model.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund





Posted By iceclimber on 24 May 2011 07:32 AM 
I see, thanks to Tac and Rob for the explanations. 

That part of "hands on" is why I went with Alcohol over gas, well it was a large contributer to my decision on fuel type. The addition of more "prototypical" controls was another. 


Very true on both accounts. I think much of it (as I cut out of tac's post) is the extras that are required for internal firing. Moi? Nothing wrong with a little pot boiler loco IMO. And the "switch on and run" aspect has to be a part too, granted set the jet on an RC loco and let her rip is easier to do on a ground railway than a loco that requires fiddling. But to me, half or more of the fun is fiddling! 

I had a fellow in Europe send me underneath photos of the RH Millie. IF someone did want a "retro" slip-centric RH loco with a pot boiler, this is it, and from the bottom photos, a small three wick burner ala the old RH days or Mamodification type could be made. Add to this a Goodall valve and glass, and one would have a little loco that could be run for prolonged periods of time at a very enjoyable pace.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

For a generic engine with broad appeal, good alternative to the USRA designs might be something more along the lines of a Baldwin catalog model shortline 2-8-0 or a logging Mikado.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric brought it up again, and I'll echo it! 

1:32 US 4-4-2 Atlantic 

PLEASE Mr. Accucraft


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 24 May 2011 04:01 PM 
Accucraft should make an alcohol fired 5MT. Aster already do.

AccuCraft make an electric version.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I know, that is why I suggested it. As to the Aster version, it is sold out. 
As they have an electric version, why not do a live steam version of it? They are half way there already.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 25 May 2011 04:18 AM 

I know, that is why I suggested it. As to the Aster version, it is sold out. 
As they have an electric version, why not do a live steam version of it? They are half way there already. 
Hi Jeremiah,
You are talking about the LMS Black 5 here, which was actually just a class 5, and NOT 5MT which is the later BR built locomotive.
Anyway, more to the point, I think that you are getting into the contractual side of the business here.
I believe that for the UK, the G1MRC has the 'rights' for ALL British type MAINLINE locomotives in LIVE STEAM.
The LMS Black 5 is a product of Accucraft UK, so they cannot produce it in live steam.
I hope that this makes sense to you!!!
Maybe Trevor will suggest that it be done for his next project. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. Thanks.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah yes, the Aster model is a 5MT and NOT a Black 5 - even when it's black and not green. 

Sigh........................I'll never get the hang of this British stuff. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter and Authorised Evaluator of Tillamook Cheese Factory Ice Cream Products


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

What is the difference between a standard Black 5 and a 5MT? I am guessing that MT is "mixed traffic"? Took me awhile to figure out all the different railroad names since all are simply in acronym form. 
LNER - London North Eastern Railway. 
LMS - London Midland Scottish railway
GWR- Great Western Railway
BR- British Railways 
There is a great DVD series by Sinclair vision works titled "Railway adventures" which showcase American, European and Canadian railways. The disk about the European trains is mainly British trains. It covers the Black 5 there. I get it from the local library every now and again.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 25 May 2011 09:48 AM 
What is the difference between a standard Black 5 and a 5MT? I am guessing that MT is "mixed traffic"? Took me awhile to figure out all the different railroad names since all are simply in acronym form. 
LNER - London North Eastern Railway. 
LMS - London Midland Scottish railway
GWR- Great Western Railway
BR- British Railways 
There is a great DVD series by Sinclair vision works titled "Railway adventures" which showcase American, European and Canadian railways. The disk about the European trains is mainly British trains. It covers the Black 5 there. I get it from the local library every now and again. 

Hi Jeremiah,
Yes, MT is indeed Mixed Traffic. 
Black 5, and 5MT - both 4-6-0 and kind of look similar, but different locos!
The 'Black 5' as it was called was a Class 5 (power rating) locomotive designed by a Sir William Arthur Stanier (he wasn't knighted at the time) and introduced by the London Midland and Scottish railway in 1934.
It was a 'mixed traffic' locomotive, being suitable for both freight and passenger trains.
A total of 842 of these locomotives were built.
The 5MT was built in British Railways days (after 1948) and designed by Henry George Ivatt, who had succeeded the man who had succeeded Stanier on the LMS, and were introduced in 1951.
Again, it was a 'mixed traffic' locomotive.
The basic boiler design was the same as the Stanier, as it was such a good design, so why not copy it.
A total of 172 of these were built. 
I hope that is of interest to you.All the best,David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks David.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

LNER - London North Eastern Railway. 
LMS - London Midland Scottish railway 
Jeremiah, 
There's an "&" in there officially. LNER is London & North Eastern Railways. LMS = London, Midland & Scottish railways. 
They were created by amalgamation (nationalisation) of several companies, e.g. the LMS was the L&NWR + MR + a dozen others. 

Today, after re-privatisation, the new companies took on variations of those names. I catch the GNER train to Yorkshire (Great North Eastern Railway.)


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, if I may expand on what Pete has added.
I gave a clinic at the 2004 NSS where I explained all the different railways of the UK, and attempted to add as many photos as I could of Gauge 1 models in the different liveries.
So, to give you the FULL story by printing some of my script from the clinic......
(I apologise for taking us a little off topic, but it seems that this is a good place to add this, for those who might be interested, and it was my thread in the first place!)

Well, in 1921, the ‘Railway Act’ created what we know as the ‘Big Four’ effective Jaunuary 1st, 1923 - names that I am sure are all familar to you.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The LMS - London, Midland and Scottish railway 
The LNER - London and North Eastern railway 
The GWR - Great Western railway 
The Southern 
__________________________________________________________________________________________


This was a ‘compulsory amalgamation’ (NOT Nationalisation) forced by the Government on the existing 118 separate railways in order to improve the service of the railways after the First World War.


Each of these ‘big four’ were made up of numerous companies, many of which in turn had been created and re-created through take overs and amalgamations to the tune of a total of some 900 plus individual company names since the creation of the first in 1632. (the Tanfield Wagonway)
__________________________________________________________________________________________


So, firstly, we will look at the LMS - the London, Midland and Scottish Railway


This was created from 8 constituent companies, plus 27 subsidiary companies 


The London & North Western Railway was formed in 1846
The railway ran from London, Euston to Glasgow, and also to the North West of Wales.


The Midland Railway was formed in 1844
The railway linked London St Pancras and Leicester in the Midlands of England


The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway
was formed in 1847, and as the name suggests ran in the counties of Lancashire and Yorkshire.


The North Staffordshire Railway
This was a purely local line, but of great importance in the area around Stoke-on-Trent.


The Furness Railway
Formed in 1844 this was a mining railway linking Barrow and the mines at Lindal.
In the late 1870’s a change in emphasis from goods to tourists kept the line successful until the First World War.


The Caledonian Railway
Incorporated in 1845 this railway liked Carlisle with Glasgow, with a branch to Edinburgh.
By 1918 absorptios had swollen the system to a total of 2,827 miles.


The Glasgow & South Western Railway	
Formed in 1850 this company grew to monopolize train services in Galloway.


The Highland Railway
This company began in 1865 and covered the area north of Inverness


Plus there were 27 subsidiary railways .
Arbroath & Forfar
Brechin & Edzell District
Callander & Oban
Cathcart District
Charnwood Forest
Cleator & Workington Junct.
Cockermouth, Keswich & 
Penrith 
Dearne Valley
Dornoch Light
Dundee & Newtyle
Harborne
Killin
Knott End
Lanarkshire & Ayreshire
Leek & Manifold Valley Light
Maryport & Carlisle
Mold & Denbigh Junction
North & South Western Junction
North London
Portpatrick & Wigtownshire Joint Commitee
Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company
Solway Junction
Stratford-upon-Avon & Midland Juncion
Tottenham & Forest Gate
Wick & Lybster Light
Wirral
Yorkshire Dales


So, after the 1923 ‘forcible amalagamation’, and until 1948 these railways became The London, Midland & Scottish Railway.
It covered the area from London to the North of Scotland mainly on the West side


__________________________________________________________________________________________



The LNER - the London, and North Eastern Railway


This was created from 7 constituent companies, plus 26 subsidiary companies 


The North Eastern was formed in 1854
It serviced the whole North East area from York up to Berwick


The Great Central railway was created in 1893
It ran between Manchester and Sheffield, and then south to Nottingham and finally to London, Marylebone.


The Great Eastern railway formed in 1862 ran beween London Liverpool Street and seviced the area known as East Anglia 


The Great Northern railway formed in 1844 ran from London to York.


The Hull & Barnsley railway, was incorporated in 1880, and as the name implies ran between the cities of Hull and Barnsley.


The North British railway, incorporated in 1844, and provided the final Berwick to Edinburgh connection for the ‘East Coast Route’


The Great North of Scotland railway connected Aberdeen and Inverness.


Plus there were 26 subsidiary railways.
Brackenhill Light
Colne Valley & Halstead
East & West Yorkshire Union
East Lincolnshire
Edinburgh & Bathgate
Forcett
Forth & Clyde Junction
Gifford & Garvald
Great North of England, Clarence & Hartlepool Junction
Horncastle
Humber Commercial Railway & Dock
Kilsyth & Bonnybridge
Lauder Light
London & Blackwall
Mansfield
Mid-Suffolk Light
Newburgh & North Fife
North Lindsey Light
Nottingham & Grantham Railway & canal
Nottingham Joint Station Committee
Nottingham Suburban
Seaforth & Sefton Junction
Sheffield District
South Yorkshire Junction
Stamford & Essendine
West Riding Railway Committee


So, after the 1923 ‘forcible amalagamation’, and until 1948 these railways became The London and North Eastern Railway.	
It connected London up the east coast to the North of Scotland


__________________________________________________________________________________________

The GWR - the Great Western Railway


This was also created from 7 constituent companies, plus 26 subsidiary companies 




The Great Western railway was incorporated in 1835 to link London, Paddington, with
Bristol. The line was Broad Gauge, 7’gauge, (2 5/8” in 1/32nd scale) at first until the 
government stepped in to standardise the railway gauge to 4’ 8 1/2” in 1846. 
The last Broad gauge train left London in1892.


The other 6 constituent companies which were all basically mining railways :
The Barry
The Cambrian
The Cardiff
The Rhymney
The Taff Vale
and The Alexandra (Newport & South Wales) Docks & Railways




Plus the 26 subsidiary railways .
Brecon & Merthyr Tydfil Jct
Burry Port & Gwendraeth Valley
Cleobury, Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light
Didcot, Newbury & Southampton
Exeter
Forest of Dean Central
Gwendraeth Valleys
Lampeter, Aberayron & New Quay Light
Liskeard & Looe
Llanelli & Mynydd Mawr
Mawddwy Light
Midland & South Western Junction
Neath & Brecon
Penarth Extension
Penarth Harbour, Dock & Railway
Port Talbot Railway & Docks
Princetown
Rhonnda & Swansea Bay
Ross & Monmouth
South Wales Mineral
Teign Valley
Vale of Glamorgan
Van Light
Welshpool & Llanfair Light
West Somerset
Wrexham & Ellesmere


So, after the 1923 ‘forcible amalagamation’, and until 1948 these railways became 
The Great Western Railway. The only one of the Big Four to retain it’s original title.
__________________________________________________________________________________________



So the last of the big four was the Southern Railway


This was created from 3 constituent companies, plus 14 subsidiary companies 


The London & South Western railway was incorporated in 1839. It linked London Waterloo, with Southampton and the rest of the South West of England.	


The London, Brighton & South Coast railway was formed in 1846. As the name suggests	it linked London, with Brighton.


The South Eastern & Chatham Railway was formed in 1899 for the working union of The South Eastern Railway, and the London, Chatham and Dover Railway.


Plus the14 subsidiary railways .
Bridgewater
Brighton & ****
Hayling
Isle of White
Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport (Isle of White)
Isle of White Central
Lee-on-the-Solent
London & Greenwich
Mid Kent
North Cornwall
Plymouth & Dartmouth
Plymouth Devonport & South Western Junction
Sidmouth
Victoria Station & Pimlico


So, after the 1923 ‘forcible amalagamation’, and until 1948 these railways became 
The Southern.
Covering the area to the South of London


__________________________________________________________________________________________



Now there were a few railways that managed to retain their independence after 1923, mainly being jointly owned although in effect they were more usually worked as part of the system by one of the partners.
Exceptions to this pattern was one of the largest ‘joint’ railways.


The Somerset & Dorset Joint railway 

Other independents
Midland & Great Northern Joint 
Mersey Railway
Kent & East Sussex
East Kent
North Devon & Cornwall Light Railway
West London Extension Railway
Weymouth & Portland
Chesire Lines Committee
__________________________________________________________________________________________



So now we go forward from 1923, to January 1st, 1948 when again the government takes action and Nationalises all the railways into what was to be known as British Railways.
The Big Four were still remembered, but now as 6 regions of the whole.
The names of the Regions matched the areas that they were assigned	

There were separate series of numbers to denote each of the regions.


The Western Region, numbers1-9999 managed to keep their nice cast numbers.

The Southern region, were numbers 30000-39999.


The London Midland region, and Scottish region, were numbers 40000-59999.

The Eastern region, and North Eastern region was numbered 60000-69999.


The New British Railways ‘Standard’ Locos were numbered from 70000-92250.


Also in this number range were some Ministry of Supply ‘Austerity’ engines, originally on loan to the railways after the war, but then purchased by British Railways.


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

In the early 1950s , Bassett Lowke built some of each of these in Live steam for gauge O. There were about 750 of the Black Fives and they are scarce. I'll be running mine at Diamondhead in January,

Jerry


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

David, 
Thanks for that very informative list of details.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

'Also in this number range were some Ministry of Supply ‘Austerity’ engines, originally on loan to the railways after the war, but then purchased by British Railways'. 

...not forgetting 'Gordon' - the REAL one - that ran on the Longmoor Military Railway, and is now on the preserved line - the Severn Valley Railway. 

http://www.btinternet.com/~bodgerjim/steam/600.htm 

Read the story above - the British version of the German Kriegslok. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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