# Mine ore car



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Years ago, I looked into making a mine ore car, the kind that was manually pushed (not a train car). Seemed like it would sort of scale out ok with HO tracks, so I bought a Bachmann On30 Davenport loco to butcher. And, like most of the little projects I start, it got back-burnered.

But, with the recent posts on 3D printing, I was inspired enough to get some preliminary parts quoted, and wow, the prices have dropped so much in 2 years! So now I'm back into this little thing.

The ore car I have in mind was a very early one, with sides made of wood and the whole thing held together with strap iron.



















Unfortunately, the Davenport chassis forces a lot of compromises to the lower bits, so all I can do with this version is suggest some of the features there. Here's the chassis (shown on a 1/4" grid), which will need its ends trimmed a bit.










After quite a lot of virtual experimentation with this chassis, here's the best model I could come up with. 










The figure (not part of this effort) is 6' tall in 1:20.3. 

Here are the parts that make up this kit.










Below the Davenport chassis is the chassis cover; above it is the hopper frame. These are the two main parts to have made. 

Above the frame are 2 pieces of 3/64" brass wire. To the left is the planking, which will be 1/16" x 3/8" ceder. 

Above that is a support frame for the load, and the load piece. I'll have these 3d printed as well, but might not use the support frame. 

These pieces are shown as if painted. But the actual 3d printed parts will come in white, I suppose.

Well, off to the 3d printer... I'll be using Shapeways. And thanks to everyone who mentioned them, they seem like they have a great service. 

===>Cliffy 

PS, I should mention that I think the ideal manual ore car would be able to drag/carry a miner behind it, move his legs (there was a great article on that in an old NGSG issue), and pivot the hopper and miner 180 degrees when reversing direction. But, I think that's all out of my league at this point!


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:


looks nice, I may have to find a gold mine on my layout.

Chuck


----------



## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff 

Looks like you have been busy- looks good. Keep us up on how this goes 

Jerry


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Cliff, why not just make a flat cover that drops inside the box, and glue natural mine tailings to give the look of the load your after!! 

Like the guys do for tender coal loads, using chips of real coal! 

I could put in a word with Santa not to count it against you for Christmas!! 

D


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I sure appreciate your interest, that's encouraging! 

Dirk, the contours on the load part are free, but yeah, I'll have to find something that looks like (silver) ore and glue it on the surface, you bet. Actually, these would be tailings, so something light brown, maybe ground up cork bits. 

I just got back from the (Shapeways) store. After uploading the models, the bill is about $21 for the parts and $6.50 for shipping. This is tons cheaper than a couple years ago! So a week or so from now, I'll post on how the parts look and fit. I designed for .010 clearance between these parts and the chassis, but I'm not really sure about shrinkage and accuracy issues, so we'll see.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Chuck may add to this, but I generally would think silver would be found in mostly in quartz bearing rock.. 
Not sure how I know this ...living on quartz as such... 
Ya got any your way... 

I could try to crush some here..... 
Also it could be crushed granite....tan color to our eyes.... decomposed granite ..

My first question venturing into 3D was to ask about shrinkage... 
Seems there is very little shrinkage... 

.010" clearance sounds good. 

Dirk


----------



## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,
That's pretty cool.








I look forward to seeing how the parts come out.

Tommy








Rio Gracie


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:


Gold and quartz are very common together. Many of the load gold mines in the west started out as a quartz vein with free gold. Many of these were mined with adits following the vein and using cars like Cliff is making. Commercial gold mines now are such low grade that free gold is rarely if ever seen. At one time I heard 1/4 of an ounce of gold per ton of ore was profitable. Talk about a needle in a hay stack. All you have to do is to burn the hay stack to find the needle in the ashes.

Free silver occasionally is found in quartz, but most silver is as a minor element in other minerals such as galena (primary source of lead). Economic geology isn't my speciality, but this is what I think I remember.

I have a piece of vein quartz with some free gold. I'll try to take a picture.

Chuck

Many different metal mines would use cars like Cliff's: such as, gold, silver, lead, zinc, copper,and mercury.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Great going there Chuck... 
So what do you think might be typically found in.... 
VIRGINIA CITY....?? 

Thanks Dirk.....


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great points, Dirk and Chuck. 

One other, the ore car trackage in Virginia City was generally exposed only over the tailings dumps. Cars that held actual ore were typically on covered runs that went directly from shaft to bin, so... the only ones you'd see in my model situation would be tailings carriers. Here's a shot of one of these dumps:










What I'm hoping to do is (eventually) recreate a few of these, which would each have had a trestle along its ridge and an ore car frequently running back and forth along it.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

May as well go all the way!

Man pushing ore car.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I would say that most cars used in the early days of the Comstock load were similar to Cliff's. They would have been pushed by a miner, or pulled by a burro. It was only later when electric motors were used to pull blocks of cars. I have no idea when or if the transition occurred at Virginia City. The modern mines that I have visited all had electric motors (battery).


Chuck


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok know what I wanted to say! 

Your tailings pile - colors - look the same as some of my ditches I dug for the water lines down in the road near the layout!! 

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The larger mines could have two types of dumps. A tailings dump and a waste rock dump. Tailings would be fine grained material, sand size or smaller, that is left over after processing the ore. This is like Cliff's picture. The other dump is the waste rock talus where the material is larger, similar to brick sized. This is rock that had to be removed and has no potential commercial value. Smaller mines would just have a waste rock dump.
The ore from smaller mines would be transported to a mill in the region, sometimes by wagon and other times by rail. 

In places like Leadville, Colorado most of the large mines shipped their ore to a smelter, so the dumps were mostly waste rock.


Chuck


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 07 Nov 2013 07:14 PM 
May as well go all the way!

Man pushing ore car.
Great Todd, thanks! I've not seen that video, but it looks like the mechanism from the NGSG article I mentioned. Nice catch!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Right Chuck, there IS a difference between tailings and waste, I should have said waste rock but I'm so used to calling it all tailings. 

The pic I posted of the dump is all waste I suppose, right from the shaft. The mills were all remotely located: a few in VC, but mostly down in Gold Hill and along the Carson River. The movement of the ore from mines to mills kept the V&T quite busy. 

All that to say, the typical load one would see in an exposed ore car, on a VC "waste trestle," would be material similar to that in the photo. To Dirk's point, I think I recall reading somewhere that a lot of decomposed granite was involved. If so, that might explain the graininess of the waste.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

Pretty fair price on your model parts from Shapeways.









BTW, which cad system did you use to draw your model


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Flag!
Penalty for Piling On.... 
It was also common practice to Bank lower grade ores until better refining was available. 

At the Total Wreck Mine the pieces are around 6" chunks and smaller. Darker than the Over Burden and with lots of quartz sparkles. Interesting stuff, has fueled many a day dream.... 
Cliffy, Raise the motor to the bottom of the bin and use a belt drive to power, you've got DCC, drop in a decoder and a couple of servos.....
Attach the legs/feet to a clear disc, as it rolls the legs appear to walk, well from 10' anyway...

Happy Rails,

John


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 08 Nov 2013 08:04 AM 
Cliffy,

Pretty fair price on your model parts from Shapeways.









BTW, which cad system did you use to draw your model








Hi Gary,

I use Solidworks, because that's what I have in connection with my job. But Shapeways has some suggestions for free or really cheap software. 

And yes, I agree, really nice price. A couple years ago when I started this project, the quotes I got were nearing a hundred.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 08 Nov 2013 08:47 AM 
Flag!
Penalty for Piling On.... 
It was also common practice to Bank lower grade ores until better refining was available. 

At the Total Wreck Mine the pieces are around 6" chunks and smaller. Darker than the Over Burden and with lots of quartz sparkles. Interesting stuff, has fueled many a day dream.... 
Cliffy, Raise the motor to the bottom of the bin and use a belt drive to power, you've got DCC, drop in a decoder and a couple of servos.....
Attach the legs/feet to a clear disc, as it rolls the legs appear to walk, well from 10' anyway...

Happy Rails,

John

Ha ha, you're reading my mind John, with the walking man thing. That's for a later version though!









Here's another VC example (the Combination Shaft):










This mine never struck a deposit, so what you see is all waste. 

Up close, the rocks can be largish like you say John, 6" easy.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 08 Nov 2013 01:09 PM 
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 08 Nov 2013 08:04 AM 
Cliffy,

Pretty fair price on your model parts from Shapeways.









BTW, which cad system did you use to draw your model








Hi Gary,

I use Solidworks, because that's what I have in connection with my job. But Shapeways has some suggestions for free or really cheap software. 

And yes, I agree, really nice price. A couple years ago when I started this project, the quotes I got were nearing a hundred. 

Hey Cliffy,

Again.........small world. In my life before retirement, ten plus years ago, I used Solidworks 98 (many versions back!!). Solidworks at that time seemed to have a steeper learning curve than MasterCam. I used it for designing forging dies along with MasterCam for surface models and toolpath generation. We eventually added the solids module to MasterCam for a better integration. Solidworks seemed to help with assembly drawings more than modeling for forgings. I STILL use MasterCam for my train stuff, layout design and rolling stock building in 1 1/2" scale.

I'm anxious to see how this car comes out.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just got this email from Shapeways:

We're in the midst of creating your order in our factory of the future. Once our robots have finished creating your order and we make sure it's perfect, you'll receive an email from UPS...

Wow, how exciting! They should charge extra to watch the "robots" do their stuff!


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Love all the pics of the old mine dumps. Nothing quite says "mining district" like a bunch of old waste rock/tailings dumps. I need to find a way to fit some into my layout, but it's tough with slopes as steep as mine.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes indeed, Ray. And you did a Nevada tour ghost town tour recently, is that correct? 

I think the "angle of repose" for loose rock is up to 45 degrees from horizontal. But it strikes me that you are using horizontal foreshortening already, to some extent... So, 60 degrees maybe, with the dump rock adhered to a concrete cone?


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I think I blew it on the motor block. Just ran across the Bachmann On30 street car:








Seems like it's more compact, making for a more prototypical ore car... as long as all that outer frame comes away. Shame to throw all that out though, and expensive. Should probably just look into HO diesel powered blocks...? 

Ideally, the wheels would be a touch larger, and (for the really old ore cars) spoked. I've never re-wheeled anything though, and they have to be conductive. 

The wheelbase could be wider, but I haven't seen anything available in S scale. 

If someone has an idea for a better "brick," let me know.

Just thinking out loud...


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:


Here is a piece of vein quarts, or is it vein pints? Oh no it is vein quartz with a small piece of native gold.



















Virginia City is the home of the Comstock Load. I believe it was primarily a silver mine. I'll have to look it up.

Chuck

Wikipedia has a nice article on the Comstock Load.

Comstock load


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well haha.. regardless of the container size....it is clear by your dime comparision, that native is larger than the natives I have found... 
Quartz is Quartz... 
...no pints about it!!! 

We'll need to drink to that..!! 

Now, ya make me wanna dig in the dirt. Looking fer lost natives! 
I dug some dirt today for a ravine..home to some track..sooner or later. 
Looking fer a lost ravine.. not native tho.!! 

Nice bright white also... 
Dirk


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

As a whole most mines in NV. are silver based.. with traces of gold to help the bonuses.... 

D.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ray... a mine on your layout would be just awesome!!! 
Run the pile with your slopes, side to side.... not out into space... 

Man you'd go nuts .. 
A building.. 
Cribbings. 

Junk piles...tailing piles.. 
Timber ..... 

Cool go for it!!!! 

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:

That was true up until the middle of the last century. Now most of the big mines in NV are low grade high tonnage gold mines, like Carlin.

Chuck


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By chuck n on 09 Nov 2013 12:34 PM 

Virginia City is the home of the Comstock Load. I believe it was primarily a silver mine. I'll have to look it up.

Chuck

Yup, the Comstock Lode was the cause of the 1859 silver rush, wherein a lot of the broke 49-er's came back over the Sierra's to try their luck. This was at the heart of the Industrial Revolution, and many enormous machines were invented and employed to get the shafts, ultimately, to over 3,000' deep. 

Many mines were sunk, but only a few paid out. Those few (and even some of the non-producers) evolved some impressive surface works, all of Sierra timber. In addition to the very few who actually got rich, the US government greatly benefited: the Comstock silver helped the North pay for their efforts in the Civil War.

Cliff


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Where does Coure Rochester, in Pershing County fit in Chuck? 
That is one of the larger mines I know of....having lived there with family working for them.. 

D.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

D:


I haven't a clue. I have not heard of it.

Chuck

I just googled it. It is a big silver mine with some gold.

Coure Rochester


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 09 Nov 2013 01:56 PM 
Where does Coure Rochester, in Pershing County fit in Chuck? 
That is one of the larger mines I know of....having lived there with family working for them.. 

D. Quite a ways from VC, not part of the Comstock Lode. But a really BIG surface mine:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Roch...pn=3.231682,6.696167&t=h&hnear=Rochester&z=14


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

1 1/2 hours drive to V.C. 

D I'll add the 45 min drive up to Coure from town. D


----------



## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey Cliff, Try North West Short Line for the power truck. They have lots of choices. Scroll down to the third page in the link.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very nice, Randy! Pretty expensive though ($85). For some reason I was thinking HO would be cheap, but when I looked last night... wow, guess not! But thanks for that anyway.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Oooh... this looks nice... Just saw this. 










Short wheelbase & chassis, spoked wheels... 










This would be for a future ore car though, the other (Davenport-based) stuff is in the pipeline.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 09 Nov 2013 05:19 AM 
Yes indeed, Ray. And you did a Nevada tour ghost town tour recently, is that correct? 

I think the "angle of repose" for loose rock is up to 45 degrees from horizontal. But it strikes me that you are using horizontal foreshortening already, to some extent... So, 60 degrees maybe, with the dump rock adhered to a concrete cone? 


Yep, took my most recent trip at the end of July. I've been exploring mines and ghost towns in Nevada (and the Mojave desert) every summer since 1987, except for one or two years when I went to AZ instead. 

I've got a couple spots in mind where I may be able to squeeze in a mine dump. They'll just be smaller, and fewer of them, than what I'd really like. But of course that's the way it goes with everything on a model RR, especially in large scale.


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy;

Hate to toss cold water on your enthusiasm, but it could save you some trouble. I remember from having an HO DeWitt Clinton set that the powered tender needed a fair amount of voltage to keep it moving. AND then the train was moving at a fairly unprototypical speed of about 30+ mph. Don't think a guy pushing a mine cart would move that fast - even if he were the miners' version of a folk legend super hero like Paul Bunion.

Just a heads-up,
David Meashey


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great intel David, thanks much. Yes, this would need to run slowly -- a slow walking pace in G-ish scale. Maybe 2 inches / sec tops...


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 10 Nov 2013 11:30 PM 
Posted By CliffyJ on 09 Nov 2013 05:19 AM 
Yes indeed, Ray. And you did a Nevada tour ghost town tour recently, is that correct? 

I think the "angle of repose" for loose rock is up to 45 degrees from horizontal. But it strikes me that you are using horizontal foreshortening already, to some extent... So, 60 degrees maybe, with the dump rock adhered to a concrete cone? 


Yep, took my most recent trip at the end of July. I've been exploring mines and ghost towns in Nevada (and the Mojave desert) every summer since 1987, except for one or two years when I went to AZ instead. 

I've got a couple spots in mind where I may be able to squeeze in a mine dump. They'll just be smaller, and fewer of them, than what I'd really like. But of course that's the way it goes with everything on a model RR, especially in large scale. 

In the 1:1 world, as I'm sure you know, a really steep hillside situation (like yours!) might require an aerial tram solution. Virginia City had such a system, going from near the roundhouse to Butter's Mill. Haven't found plans for it, just a couple of photos. But there's some detailed info on a similar thing, maybe you've been there:

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/...20=%20true 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keane_Wonder_Mine 
http://www.cfr.washington.edu/resea...report.pdf 

If I attempt this kind of thing (in the distant future), I figure the model wouldn't necessarily require the whole working system with the cables in the air, just to suggest the launch point on the mountain, and (optionally) the lower station -- say, in a distant planter -- connected by a "virtual cable." 

Not that you have room for that either... but if they DID discover gold in your mountains, they'd be forced to do something...


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 11 Nov 2013 02:10 PM 
Great intel David, thanks much. Yes, this would need to run slowly -- a slow walking pace in G-ish scale. Maybe 2 inches / sec tops... 

Should be about 1/3 of that speed.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

While the following references the Kennecott copper mine in Alaska, and Ron Simpson (MLS - blackburn49) hasn't posted on MLS in a very long time. If you do a Google search on MLS for kennecott mine site:mylargescale.com[/b] you'll find a great many in depth topics on the subject, unfortunately all of the accompanying photographs are no longer available (i.e. broken links, image files moved). Anyway the following is a link to Ron Simpson's web site, while all of the site is very interesting at the bottom right-center you'll find a link to his Kennecott Model Structures, which I thought you might find interesting.









Ron Simpson's - Copper Rail Depot - Kennecott Copper Mine[/b]

(Oops, I see the link now generates a HTTP 404 - Page not found error)


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Steve, what an awesome layout!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

It was Thursday 11/7 that I placed the part order, and wow, just 5 days later I have them in hand! What an impressive service!










The detail was my first concern, I've seen 3d printed parts come out blurred. But these are plenty good enough for me: even the 1/32" rod holes are there and will require only minor chasing out.

The next thing was to do a test fitup, and that required the mod to the chassis I mentioned earlier. Using a Dremel tool with abrasive cutoff disk, I basically cut off the protruding ends of the casting. The result is shown above. I also needed to file off a couple of no-longer-used nubs near the gear area.

I'd like to say that everything fit together perfectly, but... I'd not seen the wheel wipers tucked behind each wheel. I had slots for the axles in the chassis cover part, but I needed to widen them a few times to clear the wipers. 










This cover still doesn't quite fit, so I'll have to mess with it some more. In the end, I'll update the computer model, in case I or someone else wants to repeat this build.

I also have to carve out more clearance for the motor caps & etc. But here's the "assembly," in a rough fitup:











Though I'm not so impressed with my analysis of the chassis and motor in designing the parts, I'm very impressed with the accuracy and detail of the parts as delivered. 

===>Cliffy


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,

Don't mean to go off topic. Also don't know if V.C. used the same tram equipment that Kennecott Copper did, but I thought you may find the following of interest. The following links are to Google Books and the Internet Archive, which you can download a PDF copy of the books.

Aerial Tramways - Trenton Iron Works Co. (U.S. licensed Bleichert mfg.) *c. 1909*[/b]


And another (c. 1914)

Amer. Steel & Wire Co. (Trenton-Bleichert System of Aerial Tramways)[/b] 

And yet another (c. 1903)

Bleichert System of Wire Rope Tramways - Trenton Iron Co.[/b]


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

A totally off topic comment. I think that those of us who enjoy skiing and snow boarding probably have a lot to thank to the mining engineers who developed the tramways for the high relief mines.


Chuck


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK. Back to those new parts Cliff... 

From where I sit this looks really cool... 
I am itchying to try something out using 3D myself... seeing your's doesn't help at all here!!!!! 

Cliff... trial & Error works, is permitted... and we all get in that corner the more we try new ideas.... 

Keep at it buddy!!! You talk to Santa yet!!?? That orange thing u showed me.... 

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:

Since it may be difficult to get a motor block to go slow enough, could you use a loop using a fishing line over two pulleys with a small motor on a reversing circuit? You should be able to find a motor and gears that could pull the car out and return it to the adit.

4 to 6 pound test line would be nearly invisible.

Just an idea.

Chuck


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas and interest guys.

Steve, that's a great resource for aerial trams, thanks so much!

Dirk, Santa say ok, but ya gotta drop ship it to my place for testing... 

Chuck, you're right, and your idea would work for a short run. But the trestle I have in mind is long and curved, so I'm gonna try to make a self-powered approach work. Here's the proto:





































I'm not going to build all this right now, but I'd like to get this little ore car problem squared away -- if that's possible.

Thanks again,
===>Cliffy


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Drop..ship to your layout..ugh? 

Lets see... it'll be dirty.. how much testing fer how long? 

Would it be here this xmas ... 
.....or next...! 

LOL.....


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Um probably next... but I'll hose it off real good!


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:


I realize that labor was cheep, but I find it a little difficult to see how one man pushing one cart could go out to the end, dump the rocks, and return, before the next miner could make the trip. I don't see any wide spots where they could pass. My totally uninformed guess is that burros or horses or something else pulled multiple cars out and back. The deck is well planked, men could manage walking on ties or spaced planking, animals could not. One man, one cart, just doesn't seem efficient for that large an operation.

Chuck


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Those are some great links for aerial tram info, thanks! I've bookmarked those for future reference. 

I have a ton of pics from the aerial tram at Pioche, NV: 

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/Aerial_Trams.html 


And the tram of the Belmont Mine and mill near Hamilton, NV: 

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/Hamilton-Belmont_NV.html 


Plus a cool hand-cranked aerial tram at the old "high point" of the Reward Mine, CA: 

http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/Reward_Mine_CA_High_Mine.html 


Enjoy!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By chuck n on 13 Nov 2013 06:48 PM 
Cliff:


I realize that labor was cheep, but I find it a little difficult to see how one man pushing one cart could go out to the end, dump the rocks, and return, before the next miner could make the trip. I don't see any wide spots where they could pass. My totally uninformed guess is that burros or horses or something else pulled multiple cars out and back. The deck is well planked, men could manage walking on ties or spaced planking, animals could not. One man, one cart, just doesn't seem efficient for that large an operation.

Chuck

Very astute Chuck, as always you catch a lot of stuff from photos. Did you work at the USGS? 

I've only seen pics of men pushing the cars, such as these shots:



















This might be the same guy and the same car, because it's the same dump and the same series of pics, I believe.

Anyway, a larger operation might have used a dual track like this. 

While donkeys were sometimes used down below (where they sometimes spent most of their lives), I've not seen them used on the trestles. That doesn't prove anything, of course; and there were always exceptions. But these cars came directly from the shaft mouth (the standard elevator "cage" was too small for a donkey), through the well-kept headframe area, over the bins (usually enclosed under an "ore house"), and only then out to the dump trestle. I don't recall seeing a corral adjacent to the bins or trestle head, which where it would need to be. 

But you've got me wondering, so I'll take a look!

Cliff 

[edit]
Well, I just looked though the plans (fire insurance maps) surrounding the main VC works, but no stables. I'm pretty sure it was just brute strength and sore muscles, Chuck.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:


Looks like you're correct. At least the last photo shows what could be considered a passing track and the boards are down the center of the track not completely covering the ties like in your earlier pictures.

Yes, I'm a retired USGS geologist. I've visited and been in a number of different mines: copper, lead, zinc, salt, uranium, molybdenum, iron, asbestos, and coal. I've probably left a few out. They are nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want to work in one. I've got to hand it to those who do.

Chuck


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I see the source of your interest in mines, Chuck! Kinda gets into your blood, doesn't it?

About the ore car track, I should point out a couple things. To make a "switch" or turnaround was pretty easy: they'd lay plate for the flanges to run on, and terminate the rails at the edge of the plate. The car would just roll onto the plate, and the miner would horse it around to the "exit" pair of rails. 

Second, they generally used strap iron on boards for the rails. For any operational ore car, I'll have to just model HO rail, and have it operate it on a simple back and forth. But for static scenes, one might consider these elements. 

Returning to an early point in my OP, about the "walking" man pushing the ore car, and the video Todd posted. I messed up, the article wasn't in the NG&SLG, but Garden Railways! December 1994, entitled "The Walking Man: How do you make a model of a man that actually pushes a wagon?" by Stephen Brown, Surrey, England. Has plans and everything.

Cliff


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ah yes, the 'ol donkey in the mine trick!! 
Look at the " Commonwealth Mine", right near here in the old mining district of Pearce, AZ. 

I have traveled that old mine. Been down...oh say 'bout 6 levels - 600 Feet down in the ground.. 
Got there by trails...lots of ladders, crawling on my belly...but got there! 

In two places donkees worked to hual bags of ore from hoppers, underground to drop spots for the bags of ore to make trips up the huge shafts to the surface. 
Till the mine panned out the donkeys lived and were fed down in the mine...for most of their lives...when brought out to daylight in the end most went blind... 

Interesting journey back in the life of miners...filthy dusty dirty place to work tho... 

I was sore for days after my trip! 

Dirk


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Thought he looked familiar.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

[No message]


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff:

I like what your are doing. Your RR has a purpose. Mine (no pun intended) has a loop with two passing sidings. I can bring out trains and watch them run. Using three different scales makes for a hard theme.

I do run coal, and iron ore trains.

























Chuck

PS in addition to the 1:29 mineral trains, I have a coal train in both 1:20.3 and 1:22.5/24.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

All things being equal Chuck, is there something you would like to change or add to your great layout? 

Your has a job to do... 

Get a product moved to a consumer that needs it. 

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk:


I look on my RR as a RR museum and short line link between two major railroads. My customers are at both ends of the link line. The museum part runs tourist train with passenger cars (state of art, ca. 1955). On occasion it brings out Narrow Gauge steamers and vintage cars, freight and passenger. The SG and NG never are seen at the same time. Therefore no one will ever know if they are ever on the same track.

For some reason, the pictures never seem to show the interchange with the trunk lines at each end of the link.

Chuck

PS. As Nancy and I wrote in our article for Garden Railways (January-February 1990, Cover Story) our intent was to run a RR museum. On any give day there might be European or American narrow gauge train or both running on the Grun Mountain und Western. This was before there was much 1:29 to complicate the museums inventory. The purpose was entertainment, any income the RR made was from the tourists and management had to back fill the difference.

PPS Aren't, coal and iron ore needed somewhere?


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well that's too bad pictures do not ever "catch" the all important Interchange... 

Must a scenery problem... 

Thx 

D


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup! 

Now back to Cliff's thread.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the pics and thoughts, Chuck. Yeah, my scales are all over the map... I got some specially tinted glasses though, and the problem went away! 
Todd, thanks for posting the article... I was going to, but thought about copyright... so you solved it, from my point of view at least, ha ha!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I got back into this project over the weekend, so here's an update.

When I last posted, my 3D printed chassis part wouldn't quite fit over the davenport chassis, so that was the first thing to resolve. 

First, I needed to cut away some for the wipers behind the wheels (I'd not seen them before, they're pretty hidden).










Also, there where four unused nubs on the bottom retainer piece that needed to be cut off. (Screwdriver is pointing to one).










On the hopper part, the floor opening needed some opening up to clear the motor better.










After everything fit together (and came back apart) ok, I updated the computer model parts to reflect the mod's. 

Next was cleaning out the gears. A bunch of grit had got in from the earlier chassis cutting & filing process, and I should have taped the thing off. After cleaning, I re-lubricated with Bachmann gear grease.










The pic above shoes the chassis with the wiper assembly removed. After re-installing it, and test fitting the motor, it became clear that the wires needed some help to lay into their routing channel. So I tied the wires into place, and gooped them with a little silicone.










Since the motor won't fit through the 3D printed chassis cover, and since I want to get things apart again, I soldered in some JST jacks. 

Here's the chassis assembly, with the motor all clipped in:










I have some HO flex track on order to test this thing out. 

Next comes some painting and planking...

===>Cliffy


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I painted the bit last weekend, using Krylon for plastics. Not sure if that's any better than regular Krylon, but I had it on hand. 

Today I rigged up a small throttle pack to some HO flex track, and tested the thing. And actually, it seemed to run OK at about 2.5 to 3 volts, resulting in about 1.3 to 2.0 inches per second, which looked all right, though the miner would have to be really humping it, ha ha!

Then came planking, touch-up painting and final assembly. Here's how the critter looks.










I'm no great modeler or painter, so the real wood glued behind the painted "iron" was helpful, making nice clean lines. The brass rods are 1/32, and fit almost loosely in the 3d-printed 1/32 holes. In the future, I'll try to remember to model holes slightly undersized, and drill them out later.










The planking is 1/16 x 3/8 western red cedar from Northwest Precision Lumber. I used a pencil and scissors to mark and cut. You can see some strips in the corners; and the white rectangle was the last of the four 3d printed parts.










Like I said, I'm no great painter, but I tried my best to make certain lower bits look like timbers, leaving only the strap iron parts flat black. At some point the whole thing could use some weathering powders and a a clear flat overspray.










The above pic is of a test with a figure hanging off the back, just to check stability. With the motor up front, the figure seems to balance things, and all is stable. For better power transfer, I'm inclined to put more weight in the hopper, at least as much as I took away from the original Davenport model. I just checked, and the cast deck and cabin removed weigh 3 ozs, while the figure and hopper weigh only 1 oz.

After weighting and weathering, the main thing remaining is making a decent figure, but it might be a while for that. 

===>Cliffy


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Easiest way to weather the wood is to use a small drop of India ink in a bit of alcohol and paint it on and let it absorb into the wood. Start light and you can use successive coats to go darker if desired.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Todd, I'll do just that.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

In case someone wants to try this model, I just uploaded the updated models and listed them for sale. To get them, 
- go to www.shapeways.com 
- in the search box, enter Comstock Cliffy 
- on the next screen, when it says "Are you looking for a shop called Comstock Cliffy?" click Yes 
- the four parts will be there, and you need to buy each one (just use the default material, "White Strong & Flexible") 

The parts are about $21, and it cost me about $6 in shipping for mine. 

All of this is based on a Bachmann On30 Davenport chassis. The full model looks like this: http://www.micromark.com/bachmann-s...davenport-gas-mechanical-our-choice,7380.html). Unfortunately, it's not in production... but, they show up on Ebay. 

In addition, you'll need: 
- a couple feet of 1/16" x 3/8" cedar 
- 3 or 4 inches of 1/32" brass rod 

Please let me know if you attempt this and succeed! 

===>Cliffy


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

This is really turning out nice!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Ray!


----------



## Nevadablue (Nov 18, 2013)

I think your ore car looks great! Remember that there were MANY types and varieties of cars. Many were hand made, one off things, especially the wooden ones. I have a real one from the Anaconda Mine and they made ALL of it in-house. Cast wheels and all. So, if it fits the scale and period, it can pretty much look like you want it to and still be 'authentic'. 
Nice Job! Hope the 'pusher' turns out as well.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 08 Dec 2013 02:00 PM After weighting and weathering, the main thing remaining is making a decent figure, but it might be a while for that. 

===>Cliffy 


I use #2028 to push my mine car. 
Figure pushing Mine Car 



For some easy animation, you could use a figure such as #1017 and put rod between his hands. Use a tube as the rail car "push bar" such that he pivots freely about it. Then, you can use an eccentric wheel and rod to push/pull on the lower body section such that it pivots about the hands. Maybe he could even just drag along bouncing on the ties pivoting about the hands. Not as elaborate..., nor as difficult to implement.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Nevada, and yes indeed, there were several kinds even in the brief period & local I'm modeling. And I'm jealous of your real one! 

Great tip Todd, thanks for reminding me of that resource, I'd forgotten all about it.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

To Nevada's point, I like variety. So I'm still thinking about doing a version based on the Dewitt Clinton, but -- after seeing videos on Youtube -- Dave's right, it's just too dang fast. 

If it weren't for the speed issue (like, if there were some electronic way to slow it down?), the added bonus of this train set is the potential of further hacking:










From right to left, I see: 
- four non-powered ore cars 
- one powered ore car
- one small boiler, some hand car wheels, and other junk for a partial flat car load

Oh well... and it's probably the same story (being too fast) with this other item, the tender from the John Bull:










Again, the motor is in the tender. I couldn't find a vid of this, but maybe there's a chance it's geared more like the On30 davenport (which isn't too bad). 

From the B'mann site, I learned that the side frames come off, which is nice. Also observed once again that, like the DWC, the motor & tender chassis parts are still "sold out." 

Just musing,
Cliff


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff; 

Another plus with the Bachmann John Bull and DeWitt Clinton, the locomotive boilers could possibly be bashed into small hoist or winch boilers. 

Just a thought, 
David Meashey


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey Cliff.... 

Is it within your realm of abilities to remount the motors, adding a mid ..2/1..3/1 ..4/1 .. jack shaft. 
This would change the speed greatly without lugging the motor into an erratic overly slow rpm range.... 

Pondering also.. 

Dirk


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You're right David, either would be very nice for that. Actually, there are probably lots of larger (s)crap HO boilers that would be great for mid-size boilers. 

Hey Dirk, yeah, that's beyond my abilities... those gears are small and plastic... And since I'm not expecting a long life out of them, I don't think these motor blocks are worth that kind of time. So maybe the ideal thing to do would be to get an all-metal motor "brick" and re-wheel it. But, one of my purposes here is to make kit that anyone could build, so if you see a better alternative, please let me know. 

Thanks guys, 
Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I think I've found a much better motor block for my future ore car models. Using the Davenport didn't quite set well with me, because of all those wasted parts. True, I was able to sell those parts on Ebay, but that won't always happen for others wanting to try this project.

I should mention that I did get a used Bachmann De Witt Clinton set, but it just looked like too much modification to the motor unit. And, there's all that track & etc. to find a home for. So I re-sold the whole set, and figured that was that.

But, when Bachmann's site got back up, I noticed an HO motor block I'd not seen before. 

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_68_194&products_id=1390

$15, which is a lot better than other new-product options (e.g., the DWC tender is $30, and it's been out of stock for a long time). And, except for the side frames (which just pop off), no extra poop to not use. Here it is beside my first model:

















Advantages: 
- cheap and available
- the motor doesn't hang out, requiring a complicated assembly (and that JST plug)
- same wheelbase
- smaller frame, allowing a more prototypical design of the ore car base
- nothing hanging off the base to be chopped off
- no extra nubs on the axles to be ground off
- heavier-duty: motor is held with screws (not plastic clips)

So, at some point, I'll probably resurrect this thread again and go through the new build. For now, I wanted to just log this finding.

===>Cliffy


----------

