# I have a question



## atst (Apr 8, 2011)

I have a question. I built a model of locomotive in the colors of the German DB in the II Wolrd War. At the tender is the swastika as a historical truth (as they were originally marked with a locomotive), and not as a promotion of fascism. Can I insert images in a forum? 
Here'san example:
Pozdrawiam
Adam


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have a problem, maybe DeWight will chime in.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, you can. Models of trains are no different than military models. If they're historically accurate, we wouldn't expect you hide that history. 

Later, 

K


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## BillBrakeman (Jan 3, 2008)

Swastika? I have no problem with the symbol. But, please, do not open your posts with







"Sieg Heil"









Bill


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree 100% with Kevin. No problem at all.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Me too I with everybody else.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Adam

I agree with the others, and thank you for thinking enough of MLS and its members by asking first.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Adam, 

germany is the only state in the world i know of, that prohibits the showing of simbols the german national socialism used.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I think most here understand an accurate representation of a model and not the promotion of Nazism. And if there are persons who get upset and dont look into the facts, then too bad for them.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I may have to voice something at the other end of the spectrum.

Why are you modeling it? 

Is it a model of something that existed at one time and you wish to show what it looked like. I have no problem with that.

But how will you present it?

As part of a battle scene in the war? As just an everyday scene at a German train yard/station of some year of the past?

The question still remains as to "why". For what purpose, today? And to what end, tomorrow?

If you are just making a "toy" to play with, then I would vote that you not make it. It would be offensive.

If you are making something to be in a diorama depicting an historic event, whether of great importance, or simply an ordinary day in the lives of the people that lived at that time, then that might not be offensive, but is that the end of the story of the existence of the model? Is it in a museum of some sort? What is the purpose of the museum? Depending on the purpose of the museum it could be unoffensive, but could also be as offensive as the museum it is in. What will become of the model when you are no longer around to offer interpretation?

Is it just to be an example of your prowess as a modeler? Hmmmm... Why not pick something that would be less possibly offensive to someone?

I am not a Jew, nor am I French, English, Polish or from any other particular country that was directly attacked and/or subdued/subjugated by the Nazi philosophy, so I am not coming from that background. I do have distant relatives that died in WW-II, including some of German ancestry.

However, many years ago I worked with a couple of persons (I will not refer to them as "men" nor insult children by calling them "boys" either, but they were "male") that found the Nazi political view admirable. They longed for the power of the political sway that the Nazis represented. It is odd to note that these two particular individuals would probably have been on the WRONG end of that power had WW-II ended the other way, but out of their perverted view of life they desired the power that Nazism represents. I am sure it stemmed from their innate inferiority complexes from being under-educated at the least and under-IQ'd at the best. These two individuals often Nazi saluted each other and spoke in pseudo-German, substituting "V" for "W" and "Z" for "TH".... "Ve vill destroy ze fillzy dogs!"

The local hobby shop had (still has) a display case where local modeling artists can display their craft and one day I happened upon these two individuals gathered around the display case drooling over the latest WW-II diorama in it and attempting to secretly give each other the stiff armed salute and saying "Zieg Heil!" under their breath. This diorama happened to depict the defeat of a Nazi army unit and so they were making threats against those on the "winning" side of WW-II.

I knew the fellow that made the diorama and I knew his intent in making it and I know he attempted to show the defeat of the Nazis in his modeling to show that they "lost", but the result of it being displayed did not have that affect upon these two persons. They still attempted to "glory" in it! They did not see it as an example of what the world thinks of the political position of the Nazis, but rather it angered them and they desired to join with the other people of like mind to "take over the world and make it subject to" their " will" (to no good end for most everybody else!). They told me this explicitly when I confronted them one day at work after hearing them making like 'german soldiers' (note I did not capitalize that!).

I know that you cannot control what others think when viewing your artistic output. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is often said. So is hatred, lust, and glory.

One more thing slightly related... in this land I am free to walk down just about any ol' street, wearing just about any ol' getup of attire, but that doesn't mean it is intelligent of me to go sauntering down a back alley in an unsavory section of town wearing gold and diamond jewelry, with $100 bills sticking out of every pocket of my clothing.


Yes, I know the facts and I am still upset when I see the symbol outside of some very narrow perspectives. There are way too many people that see the symbol and do NOT get upset.


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## atst (Apr 8, 2011)

Welcome 
Thank you for your answer. 
This locomotive is one of my favorite and I always wanted to have a model, and I really like the red-painted locomotive. 
In Poland steam lokos had black colour with green and red elements only, so model of beatifull locomotive in dark, red painting is, for me, interesting supplement for my collection of models. 
Nazi marking are only the way, that locos had been marked in times of WWII and "it is a model of something that existed at one time and I wish to show what it looked like". 
This is no element of the diorama, only the same model of locomotive. 
My English isn't to good but I thing You will find sense in my explanation. 
Adam


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome 
The english is no problem! 
Some of us can't spell so you will fit rightin! 
Ya we love Pics!! 
Sean


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 24 Apr 2011 09:56 PM 
I may have to voice something at the other end of the spectrum.

Why are you modeling it? 

Is it a model of something that existed at one time and you wish to show what it looked like. I have no problem with that.

But how will you present it?

As part of a battle scene in the war? As just an everyday scene at a German train yard/station of some year of the past?

The question still remains as to "why". For what purpose, today? And to what end, tomorrow?

If you are just making a "toy" to play with, then I would vote that you not make it. It would be offensive.

If you are making something to be in a diorama depicting an historic event, whether of great importance, or simply an ordinary day in the lives of the people that lived at that time, then that might not be offensive, but is that the end of the story of the existence of the model? Is it in a museum of some sort? What is the purpose of the museum? Depending on the purpose of the museum it could be unoffensive, but could also be as offensive as the museum it is in. What will become of the model when you are no longer around to offer interpretation?

Is it just to be an example of your prowess as a modeler? Hmmmm... Why not pick something that would be less possibly offensive to someone?

I am not a Jew, nor am I French, English, Polish or from any other particular country that was directly attacked and/or subdued/subjugated by the Nazi philosophy, so I am not coming from that background. I do have distant relatives that died in WW-II, including some of German ancestry.

However, many years ago I worked with a couple of persons (I will not refer to them as "men" nor insult children by calling them "boys" either, but they were "male") that found the Nazi political view admirable. They longed for the power of the political sway that the Nazis represented. It is odd to note that these two particular individuals would probably have been on the WRONG end of that power had WW-II ended the other way, but out of their perverted view of life they desired the power that Nazism represents. I am sure it stemmed from their innate inferiority complexes from being under-educated at the least and under-IQ'd at the best. These two individuals often Nazi saluted each other and spoke in pseudo-German, substituting "V" for "W" and "Z" for "TH".... "Ve vill destroy ze fillzy dogs!"

The local hobby shop had (still has) a display case where local modeling artists can display their craft and one day I happened upon these two individuals gathered around the display case drooling over the latest WW-II diorama in it and attempting to secretly give each other the stiff armed salute and saying "Zieg Heil!" under their breath. This diorama happened to depict the defeat of a Nazi army unit and so they were making threats against those on the "winning" side of WW-II.

I knew the fellow that made the diorama and I knew his intent in making it and I know he attempted to show the defeat of the Nazis in his modeling to show that they "lost", but the result of it being displayed did not have that affect upon these two persons. They still attempted to "glory" in it! They did not see it as an example of what the world thinks of the political position of the Nazis, but rather it angered them and they desired to join with the other people of like mind to "take over the world and make it subject to" their " will" (to no good end for most everybody else!). They told me this explicitly when I confronted them one day at work after hearing them making like 'german soldiers' (note I did not capitalize that!).

I know that you cannot control what others think when viewing your artistic output. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is often said. So is hatred, lust, and glory.

One more thing slightly related... in this land I am free to walk down just about any ol' street, wearing just about any ol' getup of attire, but that doesn't mean it is intelligent of me to go sauntering down a back alley in an unsavory section of town wearing gold and diamond jewelry, with $100 bills sticking out of every pocket of my clothing.


Yes, I know the facts and I am still upset when I see the symbol outside of some very narrow perspectives. There are way too many people that see the symbol and do NOT get upset.



Jees...Beginners forum...he asks one question...and gets 15 paragraphs of ugly response. Woof. Talk about a "narrow perspective".


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Post it with a warning. Caution: symbol of a failed war machine or a Native American's good luck symbol posted inside. Please don't look if easily offended. 

Those who like to be offended will look anyway, but their wind won't ruffle our sails. 
I like old war movies and nobody pixelates the ones shown there. 
It's a model, not an idealolgy. I don't need a feel good reason to see your skills, so the why is minor, the finished project is what you wish to share. 

I look forward to seeing it. 

Peace out, 

John


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I say go ahead and post it, for those who don't like or appreciate it, they DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!!!!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

No problem here, in fact German museums have the real thing shown as it is part of their history.


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## atst (Apr 8, 2011)

I invite you to view pictures in the gallery: 
Adam


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

The swastika [Sanskrit - 'svastika'] upredates the nazi era by thousands of years - they simply adopted a mirror-image of the original symbol. The Finns used a horizontal and correctly-orientated version in their Air Force, BTW. 

Here - The swastika (Sanskrit: svastika] an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Earliest archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates back to the Indus Valley Civilization of Ancient India as well as Classical Antiquity. It remains widely used in Indian Religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. 

Compared with the time-scale of the life-time of this symbol - the Indus Valley civilisation dates from around 4500BCE - the 12-year life-span of the nazi version hardly counts a gnat's f&rt. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 




The Nazis adopted the swastika because racial theorists of the day believed that the "Aryan" race began in northern india and migrated over the caucasus mountains into Europe. Thus the swastika, found in india, was a symbol of the aryan race. All a bunch of hooeyBut there's an interesting case around it. In 1923 Bhagat Singh Thind, from India, applied to become a US citizen and was denied. The law at the time stated that naturalized citizenship was only open to "free white persons." Thind went to court, arguing that he was a caucasian, an Aryan, because he came from northern india. The US Supreme Court agreed that he was a Caucasian but denied that he was white

Thind vs US

A year earlier, it heard the case of Takao Ozawa, who had also applied for citizenship and been turned down. Ozawa argued that while as a native of Japan he loved American and added that especially if he stayed out of the sun, he was whiter than many person commonly admitted as white--for example, hispanics or Italians. The court agreed in that case that he was white in color, but not a caucasian and so not eligible for citizenship. 

Ozawa vs US

Naturalized citizenship no longer has racial requirements 





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takao_Ozawa_v._United_States


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This forum software is among the worst on the internet. Why is it inserting visible CSS code into every post, and not allowing me to delete it?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can edit in HTML mode... you will see the code... you can delete it there... 

I thought it was the browser, forgot the thread where this was cussed and discussed... 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); I have tried that, multiple times. It keeps reappearing. 


Could be that I've switched to using Chrome. The most recent Firefox was highly unstable for me 




For example, it just added it again, and I'm looking at the HML and will cut the lines, and...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There ist is again, at the top of the post, even though no such code appears in the HTML window


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

If you just want the model to be period-correct there is no problem except for those with nasty narrow minds. If you make a diorama of a National Socialist Party rally with the locomotive passing a reviewing stand with a crowd stiff-arm saluting and lots of big swastika banners in the background, don't submit photos. 

Don't think I'm being arch. In a book published ca. 1938 there is a photo of a streamlined engine in front of a reviewing stand with you-know-who in a triumphant pose. It all has to do with context. And you can get a cast aluminium replica of an eagle holding a swastika from www. historicrail.com for ca. $100. I think one would look just fine if mounted above a lavatory fixture.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i dont think there was anything offensive or "ugly" in sempers post-he simply articualted how seeing a swastika made him feel 

and while the sawsitika does indeed have a long history outside of Nazi association ( i see this stuff on Navajo rugs too)

-to fail to acknowledge that those alive in the world today (except for a one guy in Iran) associate it almost exclusively with Nazi Germany is naive, if not demeaning those who are offended by it 
-and that is no gnats fart in terms of modern history - 


lets see the model !
i love WWII stuff-have since i was a kid- 
history is history-and in that context i too do not find it offensive 



as for any other agenda.... 
as a famous jurist once said about porn- 
ill know it when i see it


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Welcome, 
If anyone gets offended by your modeling of this then they probably would get offended by all of the Indiana Jones movies! 
Glad to have you on board.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 26 Apr 2011 01:46 PM 
There ist is again, at the top of the post, even though no such code appears in the HTML window 
It's the Chrome. You have to edit twice to get rid of it. First time it shows up on the bottom.
Edit it out and it shows up on top.Edit it again and it's gone.
Ralph


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Nice looking model Adam, not familiar with it. I assume you meant to share it for its locomotive history and I will look that engine up right now as I'm not familiar with it. 

Growing up I built models of Abatrosses and Fokkers and Sopwiths and Jennys and Spitfires and Messerschmidts. I admired the engineering, not the ideology. Same with tanks like: Jagdpanzers, Tigers, Pattons, Shermans, etc, so on. I admired the engineering. They were all, in fact, weapons of death. Engineering learned from war machines has on occasion been applied to peace time machinery that has benefited mankind....at least some good came from them sometimes. 

If it's that much of an issue then we shouldn't let modeler's post pictures of their confederate era locomotives if they're flying the Stars and Bars. 

History needs to be remembered not swept under the rug. That's how humans avoid repeating mistakes. Engineering also need to be remembered for much the same reason.


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed. Whether is remembering the atrocities committed during WWII to remind us not to appease those who would commit such atrocities, or its remembering the technological failures of our past to help us prevent them from occurring again; we need to remember our past, both to honor those lost before us as well as protect those who come after us.

Technology (the engine in question) is neutral... its how we use it that has moral implications. 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

now a train to the death camp would be an entirely different matter


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

"now a train to the death camp would be an entirely different matter" 

Agreed. 

Trains have been used to haul supplies, weapons, soldiers and prisoners alike during wartime. Plenty of photos exist in archives of such activity for those SEEKING to view them but if that, [for whatever reason], is your 'thing' I think a certain level of civility and decorum on this or any OTHER possibly sensitive socio-political topics or scenes of your large scale model railroad might be best not shared with members of the forum and I thank the original poster for asking our views. 
That said, it lead me to research some interesting articles on German locomotives of that era that I was unaware of. 
This is an interesting link to Nazi Germany's high speed trains [don't worry, they're no death camp cars in the photos if you care to look], a 120 m.p.h., German 4-6-4 Hudson... 

"WAS GERMAN 05 002 THE WORLD'S FASTEST STEAM LOCO?" 

http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html#05


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The fastest still operating steam locomotive is the DR18 201 (182.5 KmH)









The 05 002 was however the fastest engine measured on a test drive (200.4 KmH)










Other streamlined German engines were 01.10


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Very cool Axel


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

as listed on wikipedia: 

"05 001 and 05 002 were mainly used for test runs from 1935 to 1936. Most of these runs were made on complete journeys between Hamburg and Berlin. On June 7, 1935 the 05 002 made a top speed of 191.7 km/h (119.1 mph) near Berlin. The same engine made six more runs with more than 177 km/h (110 mph) with trains up to 254 t weight. On May 11, 1936 it set the world speed record for steam locomotives after reaching 200.4 km/h (124.5 mph) on the Berlin–Hamburg line hauling a 197 t train. The engine power was more than 2,535 kW (3,400 ihp). *This record was broken two years later by the British LNER Class A4 4468 Mallard engine. *

On May 30, 1936 the 05 002 set an unbroken start stop speed record for steam locomotives: During the return run from a 190 km/h test Berlin-Hamburg it did the ~113 kilometres (70.1 miles) from Wittenberge to a signal stop before Berlin-Spandau in 48 min 32 s, meaning 139.4 km/h (86.66 mph) average between start and stop.


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