# Coupler heights vary between brands



## jgc583 (Aug 17, 2008)

I find that when I mix brands of rolling stock the coupler heights change. This applies to both knuckle couplers and to hook & loop couplers.

What are others doing when they mix brands of rolling stock and the couplers do not line up?

Thanks


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

There area a number of ways to address this issue. Some folks change all their couplers to Kadee so that they have uniformity that way. Others, like myself, standardize on one particular manufacturer's couplers and use those on cars of other brands. Sinced the vast majority of my cars are Aristocraft, I just standardized on their couplers. If I have USAT or Bachmann cars, I just remove their knuckle couplers, and install the Aristo knuckles. You can standardize on any manufacturer's brand though.

Ed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There is a degree of compatibility between certain brands that you can take advantage of, but picking one brand and changing everything else to it seems to be the most popular option for dealing with coupler compatibility issues. That's just the nature of large scale; each manufacturer decided long ago to do their "own thing" when it came to couplers. Kadees are a popular choice for a number of reasons. First, they're the most reliable coupler on the market. They're not going to uncouple because of debris on the track hitting the trip pins, plants reaching out and pulling the cut levers, etc. Second, they come in a variety of mounts, so they're pretty easy to fit on most manufacturers' equipment. Related to that, many manufacturers use Kadee-clone draft gears (boxes) for their own couplers, so swapping them out in those cases is literally just a matter of dropping the old for the new. The company's been around for decades, so you can expect them to be around for quite some time down the road. The other manufacturers' couplers will certainly work, but none have quite the reliability of Kadee. However, if you find yourself like Ed with a predominance of one particular brand, it's often cheapest and easiest to standardize on that particular coupler and just retrofit the few stragglers. 

Another option would be "conversion cars." These are cars with Brand A coupler on one end, and Brand B on the other. The limitation there is that you've got to run that particular car in the train between cars of those incompatible coupler types. You may get tired of constantly seeing that one car always in the train. Multiple conversion cars might help, but if you're going through that much trouble, it's not a whole lot more trouble to simply convert all your fleet. 

The "low-tech" solution--bread ties. Many clubs have stashes of these in their tool boxes for exactly that purpose. Simple, but not necessarily elegant. 

Later, 

K


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## jgc583 (Aug 17, 2008)

Where I have run into a particular problem was when a friend brought his USA loco over to run on my layout. My boxcars were Aristo-Craft with Aristo-Craft knuckle couplers and his had USA knuckle couplers. There was a considerable height difference and they would not stay coupled.

We then put USA hook and loop couplers on his USA loco and Aristo-Craft hook and loop couplers on my boxcar. Even the hook and loops did not have the same height. He bought his USA loco used and I did not expect the heights to vary so much which makes me wonder if his loco was unique.

Should a USA diesel with USA hook & loop couplers not have the same height as an Aristo-Craft boxcar with Aristo-Craft hook & loop couplers? Neither of us want to convert to Kadee or anything but rather to make do with the factory furnished couplers if possible.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The "standard" height for a hook and loop coupler is 3/4" at the centerline. That's what LGB started with when they began in the late 60s. Other companies that started up to be compatible with LGB adopted that height for their hook and loop couplers before migrating to establishing their own coupler standards with their own specific couplers. I would expect USA and Aristo hook-and-loop couplers to still be set to that standard (and the few pieces of both brands I have here are), but I wouldn't bet my favorite locomotive on it. I've seen some weird stuff when it comes to manufacturers and couplers, including one that included hook and loop couplers with no physical means of actually attaching the couplers to the car. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see some level of misalignment between hook and loop couplers between brands. Alas, the bread tie solution is the most effective in that instance. Screwy? Yes. Royal pain? Yes. De Facto large scale? Unfortunately, yes. 

Later, 

K


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

I run chopper couplers on my Accucraft UK rolling stock (because they came that way) and link and pin on everything else -- mostly Accucraft ore cars and LGB logging disconnects, but we have other stuff in the pipeline. 

The choppers are such firm couplers that it takes (at least) two hands to uncouple them. The link and pins fit my era of modelling and have the primary value that they stay connected -- not as helpful if you work a later era or want to do switching. I run live steam, where it's all obsolete anyway. 

Best, Mike


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

After great thought (came in a flash) think I'll convert to rare earth magnets and if they seperate, well then I'm not driving the train right! Amputate at the knuckle and glue in the magnet! 

Had been semi-lusting over cut levers until K mentioned gremlins reaching out! 

Bread ties... ya mean those square plastic thingies with the hole in the center? Do ya gotta use them by the expiration date printed on 'em? ha ha 

If you are coming from the smaller scales you are spoiled... 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a little confused, are you talking about body mounts to body mounts, truck mounts to truck mounts, or body mount to truck mount. 

Most cars that I know of that have hook and loop are truck mounted. The only body mounts for H&L are on the Bachmann Thomas set, but they included an adapter to drop them down to the standard H&L level. All of my 1:22.5 and 1:29 rolling stock is at the body mount height. The only cars that actually have body mounted couplers are the USAT ultimate series. All of my other cars, LGB, Aristo, Delton, etc., have truck mounted Kadee couplers with the full step up on the shank. These are all cars that would require some surgery for body mount, so I chose to stay with the truck mounts. 


The standard Aristo truck mounted couplers will not mate with a USAT body mount. The USAT coupler is high relative to the Aristo. 


Chuck


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## jgc583 (Aug 17, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 29 Jun 2010 11:51 AM 
I'm a little confused, are you talking about body mounts to body mounts, truck mounts to truck mounts, or body mount to truck mount. 

Chuck 










He had a USA diesel (I don't remember which one) and it had a USA knuckle coupler attached to a pivot on the rear of the loco. My aristo boxcar had an aristo knuckle coupler attached to the tongue of the truck and the couplers were so far apart in height they would not stay coupled on a flat track. I even put a LGB knuckle coupler (truck mounted) on my boxcar and they would not stay coupled. 

We got a hook & loop coupler without the hook on his loco but it would not stay coupled to the aristo boxcar with a aristo or LGB hook & loop coupler.

I had not run into this before as I have mixed aristo, USA and LGB cars without any particular problem. We did not see anything special about how his loco mounted the coupler but since he bought it used I thought the previous owner might have done something to it.

None of the couplers were body mounted. I don't know what you call the loco mount as it is neither what I would call body mounted or truck mounted. You could call it a swiveling mount attached to an extended post on the rear of the loco.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have some USAT diesels, F3s and an SD40. As they come from USAT they are set for truck mount height. They come with a pair of straight shank knuckles and a pair of hook and loops. On both types of engines I have to use a Kadee full step up truck mounted coupler so that they will mate with the body mounts. USAT has an offset knuckle coupler, but that must be bought separately. Unless your guest's diesel was modified the heights of the truck mounted Aristo couplers and the USA knuckle should have matched. They will not couple by running the cars together. To get them to couple you must slip one down inside the other. The shapes are sufficiently different that they will not automaticaly couple. From my experience Kadees will not automatically couple with Aristos, but they work well with USA knuckles.

I can't imagine why the H&Ls wouldn't match. As long as it was original trucks and wheels (at least as far a diameter of the wheels) they all should have matched.


If this ever happens again, some pictures of the problem would sure help us a lot. 


Chuck


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## jgc583 (Aug 17, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 29 Jun 2010 02:49 PM 
I can't imagine why the H&Ls wouldn't match. As long as it was original trucks and wheels (at least as far a diameter of the wheels) they all should have matched.


If this ever happens again, some pictures of the problem would sure help us a lot. 


Chuck 



That was the first time we had a problem with getting couplers to work. 

I think it was an F3. If he brings it back and we still have a problem with it I will post some photos.

Thanks


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

One last question, which was higher, the engine or the car?

Chuck 


My guess from what you have said is that your Aristo cars have stock Aristo couplers, and are truck mounted, therefore your cars were lower. The question remains what did your guest have on his engine?


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

From the sound of it, I am wondering if that mounting pivot on the engine was cut down to mount a kadee draft gear box (which, if it was me, I'd have cut the post short, then shimmed the box down to the correct height) When the original owner sold it, he took the kadee box and shims off and just reattached a usa coupler, on a pivot which was now much shorter, and therefore extending down less than normal.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that jgallaway has nailed it. Something was done to the post on the back of the F3. If it was shortened, Kadee has several stepdown couplers as well. You (or he) would have to measure the correct distance for the stepdown and then use it on the post. I think that there are at least two stepdown lengths.


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I just looked at the coupler posts on my F3. The posts are 3/4 inch long and it looks like it would be hard to modify. It is not solid. If there was a modification I think that a complete new block would have to be used.

There is a plastic block that is the pivoting part of the post. This is the block to which the Kadee bracket is attached. It is not part of the 3/4 inch measurement.


Here is a picture of the coupler post.










Here is a picture of the Kadee with the off set shank.










This will give you something to look for the next time you see his engine.

This is the standard Kadee that I use when I want truck mounts to match with USAT body mounts.

I think that it is Kadee #837. 


Chuck


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I have several USA SD-40-2's and the first thing that I did was put Aristo knuckle couplers on it. It's been working just fine with all my Aristo and USA cars. 

I also have an N2 and S4 USA switcher and I have Loop & Hook's on those. I occasional get a USA car that the loop & Hook is a bit higher than the Aristo, but not enough to cause a problem. You can put a small washer or two between the coupler and the truck mount to lower it a bit if it's a problem. 

Mark
http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/


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## jgc583 (Aug 17, 2008)

Posted By jgallaway81 on 30 Jun 2010 08:59 AM 
From the sound of it, I am wondering if that mounting pivot on the engine was cut down to mount a kadee draft gear box (which, if it was me, I'd have cut the post short, then shimmed the box down to the correct height) When the original owner sold it, he took the kadee box and shims off and just reattached a usa coupler, on a pivot which was now much shorter, and therefore extending down less than normal. 

I think that you nailed it. I have since tried several USA locos and cabooses with both knuckle and hook and loop couplers and they fit together without any problems.

It sounds to me that the original owner modified the loco and later sold it without the courtesy of telling prospective buyers that he had made a major change to it that would make fitting couplers very difficult.

Any suggestions about how the new owner can fix the coupler mount so that he can use non-kadee couplers?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

In all honesty all my USA locos couplers sit higher than Aristo or USA rolling stock. It is a pain in the A-s but i do Kadees and ajust to fit.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I've just encountered the coupler-height issue when trying to run a new H&L track cleaning car. It mates up to my H&L USAT GP38, but the coupler is too low for Thomas with H&Ls. So, I'll only run it with the Geep for now. But, my USAT Geep's coupler is so low that it scrapes on my Aristo re-railers, so, I'm thinking that I should change them and get all my couplers raised up to Thomas' level. However, since I'm running 8' diameter curves, will knuckle couplers still work if truck-mounted? Will they work if body-mounted? Thanks. Ken S.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:


Look in your Thomas box. There should be an extender post that drops the H&L down to the truck mount level. The other option is to put a Kadee #831 (full step up) on the track cleaning car.

As to your other question, I mix truck mounted (with Kadee stepups) and body mounted all the time. All of my curves are 10' diameter now, but I didn't have any problems with 8'ers when I was using them. The only problem you might have is with longer cars and engines, such as USAt SD70Mac or their GG1. Long freight cars, new car carriers and streamliners might also be a problem.



Chuck


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Part of the problem is because some couplers are truck mounted and some are body mounted. Part of the problem is because of the difference is scale of the various cars. What is the actual height, then the height in 1:20.3 or 1:29, or 1:24, or 1:32 or whatever. Part of the problem is that replacing plastic wheels with metal ones changes the centerlines of the trucks and the height of car floors. 

Since I began collecting cars before I was aware of the coupler incompatibility and height problems, I came up with a series of solutions. 
1. replace the wheels FIRST! 
2. use the track height gauge to set the coupler height, and maintain it for ALL SCALES, and both body and truck mounted couplers. 
3. use ONE KIND of coupler and stick with it. 
4. if the cost of conversion is too high, put your standard coupler on one end of each car at first. In effect this makes every car a transition car. 

In my case, I standardized on Kadee No 1 couplers body mounted, as my track is large enough radius to permit that. I put one Kadee No 1 on all my freight cars (I'm behind again) and two on each passenger car. 

Using the Kadee No 1 height gauge, I added about 1/4 inch of shim to raise the coupler a little higher than the gauge permits, but that minimized the amount of shimming that needs to be done on each car.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

I remove all USA knuckles and add Kadee "G" couplers. Bachmann are definiely changed to Kadees, since they do not even couple well with other Bachmann couplers. I use the Kadee guage to standardize my coupler height.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I changed everything to KD's 831 truck mount. Ran like that for 18 plus years. Now I'm working on body mounting everything. 
You will be much happier with KD's. 

Don


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