# Starting an Outdoor Elevated Live Steam Railroad



## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Hello,

We are going to begin construction on an elevated outdoor live steam railroad sometime within the month. The railroad will begin with a 60 x 35 foot loop with the possibility of expansion in the future. There is an 18 inch grade drop from one end to the other, so our plan is to have the high end 18 inches off the ground, with the other end being 36 inches off the ground to keep it perfectly level. We will be cutting a 5 foot wide path with the assumption the track will be a 2 foot wide surface of some sort and a 3 foot wide path next to it.


We will be using 4x4 posts every 8 feet about 3 foot in the ground with a layer of gravel below the post and a 40 pound bag of concrete to stabilize it. As said above, we will have a 2 foot wide surface on top with 2x4 stringers running the length between posts.


Now our question is what type of surfaces are commonly used in the hobby? Here are two of our ideas:


-Standard plywood with rubber pond liner on top

-Decking laid crosswise with rubber pond line on top


We also have the idea that we may put a thin layer of dirt on top of this (not bellow the ties) so my mom can grow some small plants and such.


Any suggestions or modifications to our current plan will be very much welcomed, we could use all the advice you can provide!




Thanks in advance,

Patrick


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Patrick 

My first question is related to live steam operation. How fire resistant/ fire retardant is the pond liner material. If either burning coal or alcohol drop on the liner, will it catch fire, or even have a hole burned through it? If so, at the very least, it woill not be long term protection for your plywood or wood deck. Check the LIVE STEAM forum for lots of discussions on this topic. David Leech had a good thread on building Dan Pantages' layout in Canada recently. 

I presume you are in the northern climes if you are putting the posts down 36 inches. My personal experience is that your 2x4s will not be adequate for an eight foot span between posts; they will start to sag after about two or three years. You don't say what radius you intend to use, but on the curves that will dictate how far apart you can space the posts, given that your deck is two feet wide. For eight foot post spacing the radius is nearly 30 feet. 

Regards


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Patrick

I noted from your other post on the Live Steam Forum that you indicated planning to use 10 foot radius curves. Realistically, your post spacing should be about 48 inches or less to not have a large cantilever on the inside.
Here is a link to a PDF version of a presentation that Pete Jobusch made at Diamondhead two years ago [2009] describing some of my efforts in finding a good solution to a solid, stable steam track. The first part describes my "single post, two foot wide" attempt.


The file is fairly large so it takes some time to download. Have patience.

===> IE & W RY Construction


Regards


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ChaoticRambo on 21 Nov 2010 01:05 PM 
Hello,

We are going to begin construction on an elevated outdoor live steam railroad sometime within the month. The railroad will begin with a 60 x 35 foot loop with the possibility of expansion in the future. There is an 18 inch grade drop from one end to the other, so our plan is to have the high end 18 inches off the ground, with the other end being 36 inches off the ground to keep it perfectly level. We will be cutting a 5 foot wide path with the assumption the track will be a 2 foot wide surface of some sort and a 3 foot wide path next to it.


We will be using 4x4 posts every 8 feet about 3 foot in the ground with a layer of gravel below the post and a 40 pound bag of concrete to stabilize it. As said above, we will have a 2 foot wide surface on top with 2x4 stringers running the length between posts.


Now our question is what type of surfaces are commonly used in the hobby? Here are two of our ideas:


-Standard plywood with rubber pond liner on top

-Decking laid crosswise with rubber pond line on top


We also have the idea that we may put a thin layer of dirt on top of this (not bellow the ties) so my mom can grow some small plants and such.


Any suggestions or modifications to our current plan will be very much welcomed, we could use all the advice you can provide!




Thanks in advance,

Patrick 


Patrick
"We also have the idea that we may put a thin layer of dirt on top of this (not bellow the ties) so my mom can grow some small plants and such." 

So, you are going to put dirt on top of the pool liner? I am surprised that Dr. Rivet did not speak on this situation...need to consider drainage, stability of surface and ballast in addition.


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Yes, the 8 foot between posts would be for the straight sections, posts will be placed as needed around curves and such.

As for the 2x4's, I don't think I stated it correctly - we will have a pair under each span placed so that the "thin" side is attached to the bottom of the surface.

To accommodate drainage, we will be putting a very slight angle to the surface, and on the edge the water will run to, the edging will be attached with some sort of thick washer between it and the surface so water can run out. 



Thanks a lot for that pdf file, that has some great info in it, will help a ton!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Not being a live steam person I wonder about this. Why does a steam track have to be perfectly level? Shouldn't there be a grade to make your engine pull a little harder? Could you notice the differance when the engine is pulling up a grade?


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Because, Unless you have the live steam engine remote controlled, they don't have brakes and will "run away" on the downgrade. The livesteamer WILL find your grades on a track, the engine will slow down and the exhaust will get loader like on the real thing!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Patrick, 
Even 2x4's on edge will sag in an 8' span, even with no weight on them. I tried using two 2x6s screwed together to form a tee shape and they sagged at 8' anyway.... Plan on closer supports; 4-6' makes a big difference. If you insist on 8' spans then plan on using angled supports from the legs (posts) to near center of each span (a triangle shape offers the most rigidity). 

Instead of trying to grow in an inch of dirt, why not allow for potted plants to be dropped into the Railroad from above. Then Mom can take them in for the winter. 

I'd let rain drain over the edging instead of inside of it, you want to keep the wood dry , not channel water to it. 

You have found a great forum and many fine ideas, with many skills and suggestions. Take what works for you. 

John


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Don't forget that with an oval, what goes up must go down too, and unless you are using RC, that is where your problem will be. Sure, a slight grade up will make the locomotive work harder, but on the downside, live steam locomotives tend to speed up as the load drops off. On this I speak from personal experience. The last thing you need is a locomotive trying to fly.

Regarding surfaces, Bob Weltyk uses composite boards and runs them perpendicular to the track and he has had no problems. Composite boards don't warp, but they are heavier and they can be hard to attach [driving a nail through a composite can be difficult if not impossible]. Some Brits use rolled asphalt with a grit to protect the wood structure, and, depending on the color of the grit attached, they can look good. Regarding adding dirt, my suggestion is DO NOT DO IT as the dirt will move during the first rainfall. Don't give yourself a regular cleaning job. If you want flowers, use flower boxes.

Think of raising the layout up about 12 to 15 inches from your low of 18 inches. Your back will appreciate the difference as you age and so will your guests.

Regarding radius, go with the largest possible. Since you have a large layout space, a 15 foot radius would be possible, and give an "S" curve some serious thought. Seeing a train with a long string of coaches going through an "S" curve is impressive.

Good luck,

Will


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## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

If I may refer you to this link: 

http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/lkydvl/Elevated layout Area/ 

I used 4x4 on paver blocks. Had I dug them in I would have needed another 60 inches to bury. I used 5/4 decking cut on angle for the roadbed. Sections are 4 ft long, spliced underneath and supported by 2x4 on edge. All lumber is PT.


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Yes, for the first loop we want to make it perfectly level to accommodate our only live steam engine we own currently, the Ruby - as well as future smaller engines. Future expansions may include some steeper grades for shays and larger engines to have fun on.

We do plan on getting the RC for the Ruby and all future engines.



As for the spans, we have changed it around a bit to include V shaped supports coming from the main legs. This will shorten the unsupported span to around 4 feet depending on what angle we end up using. For the surface, we are planning to use decking wood with a shingle like surface on top of it.

I am thinking of changing it from 18" on one end and 36" on the other to maybe 25" and 43". I don't want to make it too tall, because this is on the upper end of the total area we have to play with. So if we make this to tall, it could make an future expansions tough 


We are really trying to make this first loop as simple as possible, it wont be a perfect O, it is going to be more of a oblong oval. With the way we are going to be constructing this first loop, we should be able to easily add to it in the future.

With the nature of Ohio, we have decided that going 4 feet deep and using a 40 pound bag of concrete for each post will be very stable. After doing some calculations, we actually figured out we could set the posts as far as 12 feet apart which will support the decking plus up to the 30 year snow fall. (My dad is a Civil Engineer, and I am in college for Civil Engineering). 


We also have plenty of larger scale outdoor experience as we have been in the 7.5" gauge hobby for as long as I have been alive. And my dad has been building scale S gauge for even longer.


Hopefully we will start cutting the right-of-way through the brush this weekend.


This will definitely be a fun project, and if everything goes well - we will expand it as we see fit and as we get more equipment. 



Thank you all for all of your help and suggestions, it really is helpful - and if you think of anything else, let me know!

Patrick


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

go to "LIVE STEAM", 16 Nov 2010, Wednesday With Weltyk - 2010 Edition - to see Bob Weltyk's layout in action. Also Bob has Weltyk's Whistles (for live steam engines).

.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

If you are interested in landscaping on the track, you need to use the frame method developed by Richard Smith. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC RR/POC_Main.pdf


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks for that amazing file, that guy did some incredible work!

We have actually decided that a thin layer of ballast will be enough for now, no more than tie height.


And today we started officially clearing a path for the track, we spent 2 and a half hours today cutting brush, tomorrow we will go back with the chain saw to cut everything flush with the ground. Then we will be putting in stakes to curve our radius and planning where our posts will be. Unfortunately we are a little at the mercy of the weather, we need a couple nights that wont be under 32 degrees to poor to concrete. If we ever get a decent forecast above 32, we will rent a 41" deep, 8" wide post hole digger and have at it.


Our railroad will be the OR&W (Ohio River and Western), the same railroad we are lettering our 7.5" gauge, 2.5" scale equipment after. I think we will letter one of our steam engines for the PRR, because this is one of the few narrow gauge railroads the PRR ever owned, let alone lettered engines for. Works out great, I love narrow gauge equipment, and my favorite standard gauge railroad is the PRR.


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