# B&O battery car and Aristo heavyweights



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yesterday afternoon I was curious to see how the B&O box car with batteries and REVO electronics looked at the head end of a B&O heavyweight train of 8 cars. So I took the train out to Dr. Rivet's for a spin around his layout.

The train with the tender, box car, and 8 passenger cars had about 1 lb of drag using my fish scale. 

The height of the box car fits in nicely with the heavy weights.

Here are some pictures.





































Chuck


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the RPO as battery car, roof lifts off easy and a toggle to turn it off on the end.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty:

The main reason for the electronics in the box car was to be able to pull my 32 car DM&IR iron ore train. I was just curious to see if it looked OK with a heavyweight consist. A couple of weeks ago I had nine car USAt streamliner consist. I forgot to take the camera out that time.

I think that by putting it in the box car, I can use it for several different types of trains without having to buy and install more batteries and receivers.

Chuck


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Chuck, the Art 46011 B&O box car would look better. Some what similar color.................Jim


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim:

I tried it with the B&O USAt streamliners and I didn't like it. The color was great, but it was too tall for the passenger cars and the heavyweights match up pretty well with the streamliners.













This is one of the early USAt "steel" sided box cars. It is about the same size as their 1:24 wooden box cars and reefers. So it is a little lower and shorter than the standard 1:29 cars made by both Aristo and USAt.


Chuck


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks super, Chuck... I do agree that a box car with similar colors could be better, but...........


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck 
Yes I agree. what you'll ( I) found was most trains stayed otgether and different locos pulled them. so as money came in each (main)train has its own battery car. Guest who visit can use that car for theirs also.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree, Chuck. I often run a boxcar behind a loco pulling a passenger train - either the heavyweights or the Sierra passenger cars. I've seen lots of pictures of railroads doing this.

Ed


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Some railroads ran box cars behind passenger engines, albeit they were modified for such use (I.e., the trucks were changed out for units that were rigged for traveling at higher speeds and pass through piping and electrical needs were added as needed) typically these cars were used for baggage and some roads had reefers for transporting MILK up front too (such as REA-Railway Express Agency). 

Specifically Southern Pacific was known to pull milk reefers and baggage box cars and there were others.

Michael


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some pictures of the two box cars with a USAt streamliner. In my mind the larger box car is just too big. It reminds me of putting a freight train of LGB D&RGW cars behind a Bachmann K-27. It works, but it just doesn't look right.





































It is all in the eye of the beholder (owner). In this case I like the smaller car.

Chuck


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I gotta agree the brown box looks better IMO, did you mention the manufacturer? 

Early Aristocraft cars were a might high something like 3/8”, they later lowered the truck bolsters which closed the space between the trucks and car floor which looks much more prototypical. 

Aristo offers lowered floors for retro-fit or many have figured out ways to lower the cars with bolster change-outs, modified and shaved bolster and even lowered trucks. 

Michael


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The brown box is an older USAt. I think that they used very similar measurements to their 1:24 wood sided boxes and reefers. It is also very similar in size to LGB's NG boxes and reefers. 

I bought it a year ago when I decided i needed a shorter car for batteries. 


Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I wonder how the blue LGB B&O box car would look in place of the brown one. 
It doesn't seem to be as high as the Aristo one. 

http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=433 

Knut


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

I think that the USAT classic steel standard-gauge boxcars are 1:32. 
They are certainly the same size as Lionel ones. 
I use a Lionel 87101 REA reefer as the battery car with my PRR heavyweights. 
Its gold writing matches the passenger cars well.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not have the LGB B&O dark blue box car, but here is a D&RGW car of similar size. It is still too high for use with the heavyweights and USAt streamliners. It is a little lower, but not low enough. 


I have looked in several of my B&O train books and any freight cars pictured at the head end of a passenger train were at roof level or lower than the passenger car that follows it in the train. 





































Here is a picture of the USAt blue B&O box car with a USAt passenger car (RPO). If one were going to use it in a passenger train you would have to get rid of the LCL (less than carload lots) on the side.


The color is nice, but the lettering isn't suitable for this use. 












The brown B&O box car that I am using for my battery and control car has the exact same dimensions as my LGB and USA narrow gauge box cars. That would make this car, most likely a 1:24 model of a car that never really existed.


Jim Stapleton has loaned me a 1:32 standard gauge box car. When it stops raining I will take some pictures of it with the USA box car. This should help clarify any confusion at to the scale of the B&O car. 


Chuck


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Why not hide the battery in your RPO or combine?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd have go with the RPO car also. Box does nothing unless you want to try for an REA box. Later RJD


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

are thoes lgb trucks under the lgb box car if so, try some Aristo trucks i think that will lower it more.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Torby and RJ:

Read the beginning posts in this thread. The main use of the battery car behind the Mallet is to pull my iron ore train. I seriously doubt that a RPO would function there to any body's satisfaction, especially mine.


I was just curious about how it would look in other situations - - that is all. It worked. If I wanted it in a powered RPO I would then have to purchase a new set of batteries, a REVO receiver, and rewire my USAt B&O F3 A-B-A set. Since I almost always run using DC on my own layout, I didn't think that added expense was necessary. This was done so that I could run out at Dr. Rivet's layout. It is a special layout that has long main lines with very wide radius curves. It is a great pleasure to run out there. At the present it only accepts live steam, which I don't have, and battery.


In an ideal world maybe I could follow your suggestions, but $$$ some how gets in the way.

Chuck 


Dick:

The LGB car is D&RGW lowering it would not help my B&O passenger train. The Blue B&O box car in the picture is a USAt car. Due to lettering it is totally unacceptable as a head end car.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Chuck 
paint it and letter with decals from Stan


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dick:

Good idea, but then what would I use as a battery/control car at the head end of my iron ore train with Stan's beautiful decals? A blue power car would stand out like a painted lady at a church social.

Since, 90% or more of the time I'll be pulling the iron ore train, I'll stick with the brown car. I just wanted to see what it looked like pulling the heavyweighs and streamliners!!! I thought that it looked fine and was reasonably prototypical. For the purists, the real problem would be having a Mallet pull those passenger trains. But to forestall that criticism, I'm running a tourist railroad that services some steel mills. And what ever engine is handy makes the run.


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Earlier in this thread it was suggested that the brown B&O box car produced by USA trains was in 1:32 scale. I don't think so.

Here are some pictures comparing it to a 1:32 PRR wood sided-steel framed box car.

The 40' PRR car is longer, lower, and narrower than the USA car.

I'm in the process of assembling a table with dimensions of several box cars of known, suspected, and unknown scales. The B&O brown box car is a perfect size match for the USA trains wood sided narrow gauge cars, which are 1:24. 


Narrow gauge cars had 5 rungs on the ladders the 1:29 and 1:32 cars all have 7 or 8 rungs. The B&O box car has only 5. The brown B&O box car is a nice model of a 30' car that never existed.




























Note the 5 steps up the end. 











Chuck 



Here is the table so far. There will be another 1;32 box car later. It will be a little higher as it is a 10' high inside while the PRR car at the top of the table is lower, about 8' high. This should be closer in height to the other standard gauge cars.



Common box cars available 

Nominal Length Width Height calculated scale # of steps 
Gauge and length scale inches inches inches 1: in end ladder PRR* std. 40' length 1:32 15.50 3.31 3.25 30.97 7 USAt B&O std. 40' length 1:29 16.88 4.06 4.31 28.44 7 LGB D&RGW std. 40' length 1:29 16.50 4.19 4.25 29.09 8 LGB D&RGW nar. 30' length 01:22.5 14.50 4.00 4.00 24.83 5 Delton D&RGW nar. 30' length 1:24 14.88 3.94 3.69 24.20 5 USA D&RGW nar. 30' length 1:24 14.38 4.00 4.00 25.04 5 USA B&O** ? 30' length (?) ? 14.38 4.00 4.00 25.04 5 







*model of a PRR A.R.A. Standard 50 ton box car sold by Barrett 


**Battery/RC car in question


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Great information, Chuck. 

Could you maybe add the product codes for each of the models? 
That would help to avoid any confusion. 
The Large Scale database could possibly help you there if the item is listed already. 

My understanding always was that USA Trains used 1:24 scale for narrow gauge equipment and 1:29 scale for standard gauge equipment. 
In "Garden Railroading" MDC was 1:32, some Piko items where they use the old MDC molds are 1:32 and of course MTH is 1:32. 

Knut 

PS: I'm surprised how well the couplers match between the standard gauge and narrow gauge box car.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut:

I'll try to work it in. I didn't do it on the first go around because I was worried about too many columns for the space here in the forum. There is room for several more columns, so I'll try to fine the manufacturers numbers for the cars.

You will note the the LGB cars are closer to 1:24 not 1:22.5.

The short USA trains cars came out 20 or more years ago long before they started their ultimate line of 1:29. 

Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Chuck,

The box car in the picture with the car running number 293825 is the USA Trains model R19086A


For the others there is not enough information with just the description unless you posted some pictures earlier which I missed.

Yes - a lot of LGB narrow gauge items are in roughly 1:24 scale rather than 1:22.5
Even the Swiss RhB stuff I have, where 1:22.5 scale would be correct because it's a Meter-gauge railroad, turns out to be 1:24 scale.

The LGB Stainz I read somewhere was actually around 1:19 scale or so - didn't check that myself.

Knut


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Chuck 

One of your fundamental assumptions about box car dimensions is incorrect. A "40 ft box car" most often turns out to be "inside length of 40 ft =/- a couple of inches. Most 40 ft box cars have a true inside length of about 40 ft 6 in and outside length of 41 ft 3 in to 41 ft 6 in. In the table entry for the Barrett Rys [made by Accucraft many years ago] you show a body length of 15.5". In 1:32 scale that is 41 ft 4 in, probably very close to correct. 

The USAT at 16.88 and 1:29 becomes 40 ft 9.5 inches. It is unfair from a measurement perspective [nearest 0.01 in[?] to NOT know the true dimensions of the prototype if you are going to compare scale ratios that have differences of as little as 3%. The numbers become [from a mathematician's point of view] statistically meaningless because the differences are inside the bounds of the calculation error. 

To aid in this effort I will dig through my reference material and provide as nearly correct dimensions for prototype lengths on the cars you have in the table. You can then recompute your "observed scale". 

Let's not loose sight of the fact that, other than the Barrett brass car, none of these was specifically marketed as a true scale model of anything.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The actual outside dimension of a 40-foot box car I'm sure varies a bit depending on the manufacturer (of the prototype). 
All of these Large Scale box cars in the list (except maybe the 1/32 one) represent "generic" box cars, by that I mean USA Trains and Aristo and LGB and Delton etc. used the identical mold for each of their individual different versions and just kept changing the livery. 
None of them went out and actually measured the different prototypes of the various railroads or custom box cars and adjusted the dimensions of the "model" (in quotation marks.) 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/krs/Canda 40' Box.pdf 

The one drawing I quickly found of a 40-ft box car actually shows the outside dimension of the body to be exactly 40 feet, the roof is a bit longer at 41 ft. 2 in. - and calculating the scale of the first USA T B&O one - with a 40ft body one gets a scale of 1:28.4; with a 41 ft prototype body, it's a scale of 1:29.1 - close enough for Large Scale I would think considering that the track gauge, wheel flanges, couplers are "off-scale" by much more. 

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Sounds like there could be a market for a chassie that holds a set of batteries/equipment and the shell could then snap on/off and be of a different road name, or even different sort of railcar all together for a quick change.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim and Knut:

Thanks for the helpful comments and suggestions. I have revised the table to take into account your comments. I should have known better about the two significant figures after the decimal. Remember I'm retired and I haven't had to think about things like that for several years.

Chuck


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Toddalin, Actually there is a relatively easy way to achieve a "universal" battery boxcar. I have a couple of trailing cars mounted in boxcars. I put all of the batteries and/or electronics on the floor of the Aristo boxcar. Then I can put what ever "body" I want to have on it, whether it be Santa Fe, PRR, B&O or whatever.

And for my money, Chuck, sure a blue boxcar might look nice, but I thought your original b&O boxcar looked fine on your B&O passenger train!

Ed


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ed, so did I.

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut:

After your comments regarding the LGB RhB rolling stock, I'm beginning the think that the only 1:22.5 thing LGB made was the track. Has any one tried to figure out the approximate scale of their Zillertal Bahn rolling stock? That railroad used 750mm gauge track.


Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Chuck, 

The 1:24 scale (roughly) for LGB RhB was strictly the Ge 4/4 II and Ge 4/4 III electric locomotives and specifically related to their length. 
Width and height I'm sure are a somewhat different scale. 
H-J Mueller of BC made a hobby of measuring LGB RhB equipment and posting tables of the actual scale of the various model dimensions vs the prototype. 

You can find some drawings of prototype Zillertal locos with their dimensions here: 
http://www.zillertalbahn.at/page.cfm?vpath=bahn/fahrzeuge/dampfloks 
It's the link below each picture. 

It's probably best to actually measure the LGB model rather than just take the dimension in the catalog or the Large Scale database. 
The length in Europe is always measured "over buffers" which is the longest part of a loco or car - USA Trains only measures and quotes the length of the body of the car on their models, not including the coupling. 
I think the length should really include up to the pulling face of the knuckle coupler - that way, if you add up the length of all the cars in a consist you end up with the actual total length.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 14 Jul 2011 07:17 PM 
Toddalin, Actually there is a relatively easy way to achieve a "universal" battery boxcar. I have a couple of trailing cars mounted in boxcars. I put all of the batteries and/or electronics on the floor of the Aristo boxcar. Then I can put what ever "body" I want to have on it, whether it be Santa Fe, PRR, B&O or whatever.


Ed


But wouldn't it be nice, and more cost effective, if one didn't have to buy an entire railcar, including the chassie, trucks, couplers, etc. just to swap a shell to a different road name or type of railcar?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut:

Thanks for the Zillertal link. Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until next winter when we are in Arizona to measure the engine.

Chuck


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 17 Jul 2011 12:02 PM 


Thanks for the Zillertal link. Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until next winter when we are in Arizona to measure the engine.

Well Chuck,

If I just take the length - 340mm for the LGB model and 7190mm for the prototype, I get a scale of 1:21
Gauge of course is a bit off at 760mm for the prototype and 45mm for the model, a scale of 1:17
The proper model track gauge would be 36mm, 32mm O-gauge track is a lot closer than the 45mm gauge we use.

Knut


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut:

That's not as far off as I thought it would be. So, it is just the track gauge that would be the most out of scale. 760mm vs. 1000mm.


Thanks,

Chuck


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