# Where to start



## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

Hello, large scale newbie here from South Dakota. I would like to put together an outdoor layout. I will add more questions as I go. 
So I will start with my questions.

What loco will handle the weather the best? 

How do you store them when you are not operating or during bad weather? 

What is the best track for the money, brass or aluminum?

What is used for a controller?


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

I can't answer the first question, because I don't operate in the rain. Most of my engines are scratchbuilt, both RC and track power. I will operate in cold weather, but usually with my steamer. I'm sure others will chime in, so they may have the answer you seek.


My engines are stored in the garage, but I have a car barn on the layout for the most used rolling stock.


Best track in my opinion is brass rail for both durability and conductivity, downside is the top of the rail needs to be maintained for good electrical contact. I've never used aluminum or stainless steel.


I can't help you on controllers.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I will only comment on the track, stainless steel. Mine has been out for over 10 years, normal NJ weather and never had the need to clean it, I only have one tree that covers one corner so no sap or bird droppings. LiG


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

We need to know what area of the country you are in. I live in South Eastern Massachusetts and how I build my RR is completely different than those that live in Florida or Southern California.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

As I posted for jumper? on another thread, I suggest you look through this website:
https://familygardentrains.com/primer/index.htm#intro


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

sdkid said:


> Hello, large scale newbie here from South Dakota. I would like to put together an outdoor layout. I will add more questions as I go.
> So I will start with my questions.


Some of this reply is a little tongue-n-cheek if you bear with it.  Probably raise some differences of opinion.  But since you left the nature of your outdoor layout (sparks or live steam) out you're in for opinions. 

What loco will handle the weather the best? 
Any Live Steam Locomotive being built of brass, stainless steel and copper. Try a Ruby at first, maybe even build it as your first live steamer to get your feet wet and your fingers singed. (Happens to everyone - part of the thrill of it all.)
The benefit to live steam is you'll spend all your time operating the locomotive rather than making an indoor model train type layout for the outdoors with all the landscaping, dirt, rock, cement, plants, ballast, electrical problems, etc, etc., not to mention build time, high maintenance time and cost. 

With live steam you build an elevated layout which is immeasurably simpler all round. Lots of the examples you'll see of elevated layouts have been build using 4x4 posts in concrete or on pier blocks for legs. Personal o[pinion, the times and technology have advanced quite a bit and it's a lot simpler to use steel Tee posts (2 1/2 - 3") pounded in the ground for the legs. Then build thee deck for the track as usual for an elevated layout. PVC irrigation pipe is another alternative for legs but that too is hole digging and cement. Having built two previous elevated layouts with 4x4 posts digging and cement gets old very very fast. I have another to build and believe me simplest is best. And they make this wonderful thing called a pneumatic tee post driver, which you can rent. They even call one model, The Man Saver Post Driver. Search the internet for it. I think they're cheap for all the savings (on me) they will bring. 

How do you store them when you are not operating or during bad weather? 
The Real Thing had a Round House where they brought them inside when there is inclement weather and they will be warm and happy. And so you can fiddle with them. The principle applies to rolling stock as well as locomotives. But it's important to remember, if you go live steam you can run your trains in the rain - if you want - depending.

What is the best track for the money, brass or aluminum?
There are 4 types of track, from least to most expensive: Aluminum, Brass, Nickel Silver and Stainless Steel. The last is really expensive and actually few modelers use it due to its cost. With live steam conductivity isn't concern obviously. Expansion/contraction is fundamental consideration. This can be solved by either floating the track so it can move with temperature or leaving small space between the rails at joints so the rail can move. There are some fine points to type of track with live steam but on a budget aluminum will be completely satisfactory,a the slight upgrade in price and quality being brass. Nickel Silver then is for the fanatical types amongst(?) some of us.


What is used for a controller?
The best controller is yourself with live steam with the feedback and feel of operations basically the same as with the real thing. That stretches the metaphor for the real thing but some find it more satisfying than a on/off switch and rheostat (a gross oversimplification but there you are, two camps.) Then with Live Steam you can always install RC for your operating pleasure.


In any event and whichever choices you make, just have fun. We all take this stuff way too seriously whether we admit to it or not. I'll admit to it. No problem.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For storing trains there is also plastic rails. Much lighter for shelving than the metal track. And you can use the hollow track by bachmann and old Lionel large scale track.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

sdkid, I should have mentioned, have two tracks. I use the SS for the electrics and Al for my live steamers. On both I have a track that expands and contracts with in each other to compensate for temp extremes we have here in Jersey, forgot the technical name, pic attached. Most of the track is the 8' lengths that are slid on to the tie forms, where I used sectional track I removed the screws that hold the rail to the tie (ties are secured to the decking) to allow it to creep along. Haven't had a problem since installation. Outside temp pic taken is 40'f so as you can see it has plenty of room to either expand or contract. this is just one of several ways to do it. LiG


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I ditched track power for On Board battery and R/C controls;
https://www.gscalegraphics.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html#/


I use stained stainless, I applied rust for looks.
I float my track in ballast, it expands and contracts as a unit.
I built a car barn for the cars, the locos I store indoors when not in use. For peace of mind.


Welcome to our hobby.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

If you aspire to live steam operation, you DO NOT have to go elevated. Just look at all the fine ground level lines in the UK and USA that run live steam. Granted one much chose your engine carefully based on how and where you track is. Regner makes a fine line of geared models that can go around the tightest curves. Probably the best in current prodution is the Lumberjack logging style engine. Roundhouse from the UK make some very nice entry level engines in thier Basic series and even nicer ones in the Classic series. They can be fitted with RC control, which makes ground level operation possible. I started ground level, well nearly ground level. But issues with our Beagle digging and thinking figures and telephone poles were chew toys, I rebuilt my line elevated. This is also much easier on my back. But going elevated, one does not need to give up the gardening aspect. Planter boxes can be recessed into the layout top, or the whole table can be a planter box, which is what I did. My track, all LGB brass, has been outdoors for over 15 years. Eight of those years it was track powered, but as I added live steam and the track aged, keeping consistant power around the loop got to be a chore. So I converted to onboard battery power for my remaining engines that are not live steam. For live steam I have 2 Regner engines, a Konrad geared model and the Stainz 0-4-0. I mostly run the Konrad at home, the Stainz needs RC installed to run safely around my tight curves as a derailment would mean a long crash to the rocks below. The most important thing is to make a start, get a starter set(LGB are the best IMHO), lay some track around a tree, thru the flower bed, get a train running and pull up a lawn chair with your favorite beverage. This will help get the mind working and planning what you want to do. Lots of videos on youtube, both for live steam and garden railways in general. Shawn V, has an excellent ground level, mostly live steam powered logging garden railway. He uses several of the Regner models on his line. He has a channel on youtube with many excellent videos of his Kittatiany mountain railroad. Shawn has combined the best of both modeling aspects, realistic scenery and live steam. Many lines in the UK are live steam only, so no worries about any kind of track or battery power. One or two engines are all that is needed for a small logging or narrow gauge line. It all just depends on what you desire for a prototype and what you can afford. 





Here is my small elevated line that ajoins my deck, with my live steam Regner Konrad with a short train of Hartland gondolas.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> If you aspire to live steam operation, you DO NOT have to go elevated. Just look at all the fine ground level lines in the UK and USA that run live steam. Granted one much chose your engine carefully based on how and where you track is. Regner makes a fine line of geared models that can go around the tightest curves. Probably the best in current prodution is the Lumberjack logging style engine. Roundhouse from the UK make some very nice entry level engines in thier Basic series and even nicer ones in the Classic series. They can be fitted with RC control, which makes ground level operation possible. I started ground level, well nearly ground level. But issues with our Beagle digging and thinking figures and telephone poles were chew toys, I rebuilt my line elevated. This is also much easier on my back. But going elevated, one does not need to give up the gardening aspect. Planter boxes can be recessed into the layout top, or the whole table can be a planter box, which is what I did. My track, all LGB brass, has been outdoors for over 15 years. Eight of those years it was track powered, but as I added live steam and the track aged, keeping consistant power around the loop got to be a chore. So I converted to onboard battery power for my remaining engines that are not live steam. For live steam I have 2 Regner engines, a Konrad geared model and the Stainz 0-4-0. I mostly run the Konrad at home, the Stainz needs RC installed to run safely around my tight curves as a derailment would mean a long crash to the rocks below. The most important thing is to make a start, get a starter set(LGB are the best IMHO), lay some track around a tree, thru the flower bed, get a train running and pull up a lawn chair with your favorite beverage. This will help get the mind working and planning what you want to do. Lots of videos on youtube, both for live steam and garden railways in general. Shawn V, has an excellent ground level, mostly live steam powered logging garden railway. He uses several of the Regner models on his line. He has a channel on youtube with many excellent videos of his Kittatiany mountain railroad. Shawn has combined the best of both modeling aspects, realistic scenery and live steam. Many lines in the UK are live steam only, so no worries about any kind of track or battery power. One or two engines are all that is needed for a small logging or narrow gauge line. It all just depends on what you desire for a prototype and what you can afford.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXW3BkFHMaM&t=243s
> 
> Here is my small elevated line that ajoins my deck, with my live steam Regner Konrad with a short train of Hartland gondolas.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz_amrNt7bs



There is a new invention broad in the land. It's called a paragraph. Try it, others will thank you for making there reading smoother. Run on's, those not living in today, find lack of favor and some simply avoid reading an over packing.

All this does not apply if your competing for the longest sentence contest and a Guinness World Record.


Thanks Mike


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

sdkid;

Could not tell from your original post whether you have any track or equipment as yet. You may want to investigate starter sets if you are at the "nothing as yet" stage. LGB, Piko, Bachmann, and USA Trains all offer starter sets. ( Warning: The track that comes with a Bachmann starter set is NOT suitable for outdoor use!) The power supplies that come with a starter set are a bit on the weak side, but they will allow you to get your feet wet and learn a few things before you really start the bigger project.

I started with a basic LGB freight starter set over 30 years ago. Some of my favorite electric locomotives include the LGB Moguls, the Piko 0-6-0 camelback, and the Hartland Locomotive Works "Big John" (based on the Dunkirk geared locomotive).









Piko Camelback









Hartland Big John









Roundhouse Millie

I currently have live steamers as well. They can require a lot of careful attention. It was not as difficult for me to go to live steam. Prior to purchasing my first Roundhouse "Millie" model, the smallest live steamer I had run was a Crown Metal Products 4 1/2 ton, 2 foot gauge live steamer. She carried 155psi on the gauge, so number 1 gauge live steamers were not as daunting for me.

It is OK to get your feet wet with traditional power, and then branch out into battery, live steam, solar, etc.

Best wishes,
David Meashey


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

Chris Scott said:


> Some of this reply is a little tongue-n-cheek if you bear with it.  Probably raise some differences of opinion.  But since you left the nature of your outdoor layout (sparks or live steam) out you're in for opinions.
> 
> What loco will handle the weather the best?
> Any Live Steam Locomotive being built of brass, stainless steel and copper. Try a Ruby at first, maybe even build it as your first live steamer to get your feet wet and your fingers singed. (Happens to everyone - part of the thrill of it all.)
> ...





Dave Meashey said:


> sdkid;
> 
> Could not tell from your original post whether you have any track or equipment as yet. You may want to investigate starter sets if you are at the "nothing as yet" stage. LGB, Piko, Bachmann, and USA Trains all offer starter sets. ( Warning: The track that comes with a Bachmann starter set is NOT suitable for outdoor use!) The power supplies that come with a starter set are a bit on the weak side, but they will allow you to get your feet wet and learn a few things before you really start the bigger project.
> 
> ...



Where is the darn "Like" button when a guy needs one.


Ah, there it is


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike is right, being elevated is a choice. I had a ground layout for years, and enjoyed it very much, although I wasn't very good at structures and scenery. I, like others, elevated mine out if necessity to be able to continue to enjoy the hobby. LiG


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I think many people, espically in their younger years start out with a ground level line, after all its easier to get down there and build/maintain it in our younger years. However as we all get older, getting down on our hands and knees to weed, plant and maintain the railway gets harder and harder. So even though a personal decision whether to go ground level or raised, one must look at this as a long term decision and build with that thought in mind

Most nice garden railways we see in the magazines and online are "mature" railways. Having been built several years ago and have now let the garden fill back in around the railway, be it raised or ground level. Only natural time passing can achieve this as plants grow, bushes fill in the open space under a raised line to give it a more "garden" feel. Raised is much better for live steam operation but not required. I find it nice to just sit in a chair on my deck and be able to run any train I want. I do not have to go out in the yard when its wet/muddy. I can enjoy the trains while eating dinner with my wife and when we entertain others. 

Which ever way you choose, please post up pics so we may all enjoy your journey into garden railroading. Mike


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## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

Thanks guys. I literally have nothing. Just thoughts in my head. 

I think I would like diesel but steamers are not out of the question. Not sure about live steam at this point yet though.

I like the Mighty hauler starter set at Trainworld. I don't have enough posts to share a link yet.

My closest hobby shop is 200 miles away. Hard to get a hands on feel before I buy too.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I like the Mighty hauler starter set at Trainworld.


Looks like a good starter set to me.











Just remember that they only give you the minimum of track - you'll probably want to buy some more straights and maybe a switch or two.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Renee and I like to talk to beginners, and will be able to help with most any thing you need to get going. Give us a call or email, we will be open tomorrow morning.


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## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

*Garden Railroads*



sdkid said:


> Hello, large scale newbie here from South Dakota. I would like to put together an outdoor layout. I will add more questions as I go.
> So I will start with my questions.
> 
> What loco will handle the weather the best?
> ...


++++++++++
You've gotten a lot of good advice already. Do a Google search for Garden Railways how to books. There are several available that you can read up the basics of planning and installing a g scale outdoor railway. 

You don't leave your locomotives outside exposed to the weather when not using them. They are electro-mechanical devices just like any type of equipment shouldn't be left exposed to the weather. 
You can do so for rolling stock but even then better to store them inside a shelter or garage, etc. 

I assume you'll start with a DC powered locomotive and layout, which 80% of the G scale hobbyists in the USA use. LGB, Piko or USA brass track all work fine. Aristocraft brass track also fine but mostly available only used since they went out of business a few years ago. You can find good prices at online large scale stores and some good deals for new and used track on eBay.com.

Power Supplies/Transformer options. I'd suggest getting a 5 amp DC unit made by various manufacturers. LGB has some options, either new at an online large scale store like PizzaTrains.com, OnlyTrains.com or UplandTrains.com......I've bought from them with excellent prices and very responsive customer service. And eBay sometimes has decent used items for sale and eBay buyer's protection policy. LGB 51070 or 51079 Electronic Locomotive Controller, 5 Amps are excellent, and you'll need a 5 amp AC or DC power supply too, such as LGB 50111. A locomotive buyer of mine just starting up in G scale bought the following at Shourtline.com that he's very happy with: SL-DC-5-SPS-Set: Any Gauge Precision Train Power, SL 5A Amp Digital Precision Voltage/Amperage Throttle + 24V 6A Switching Power Supply w AC cord. Piko Germany (made by Massoth) also has good quality products such as Piko 35002 5 amp 22volt controller and power supply Piko 35024 5 amp power supply. Also buy an LGB 50040 Track Cleaning Block $13 - $20 for keeping the top of your track rails clean.......they last for years! Rail joints, I use a conductive paste on the ends of the rails when laying the track, and then I use Zap Rail-Zip2 periodically between the railjoints, especially on my outdoor layout.


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## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

Hit EBAY today. Ordered a few years of Garden Railways magazine back issues. Subscribed to the current year also. I also found Garden Railroading, Getting started in the hobby from Kalmbach, its on the way too. 

I also checked out Reindeer Pass and found the Rio Grande NW-2 starter set. 

I'll be back, and thank you again for the great info.


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## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

How much does battery powered add to the cost? If I am reading right it’s remote control????? Is it reliable?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Battery, DC, DCC, live steam can all be remote control.
All have advantages and drawbacks.
You need to figure out how you want to run your trains and then factor in the cost.


Myself I started with a starter set and DC track power. I added remote control soon after I started. 9 years later I went to DCC, but I can flip a switch and do DC or DCC.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I posted the link to G scale Graphics, their prices are listed. Discount battery houses are on the net. Batteries are rated by AmpHours, how long of a run do you need? That affects the price ... I can't answer that one.

How big of railroad do you envision? I knew I wouldn't be happy with a loop for very long and there's an acre to play with ...
If you want many locos then DCC might be more cost effective and it has all the bells and whistles and now built in sound. The initial start up can be expensive and time consuming what with track joints and rail tops to maintain.
Battery R/C removes the track maintenance and replaces it with battery charging and a charger and fiddling with it.
I have 2 locos and trains. One will run with a Critter Control making timed station stops and continuing, while I'll have full R/C in the freight and I'll dodge the other one.
So for 2 trains R/C is a good choice.
We can only advise, the choices are yours.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

sdkid said:


> How much does battery powered add to the cost? If I am reading right it’s remote control????? Is it reliable?


 Yes, it's remote control and very nice to have. You end up operating the locomotive not a train layout.


Unfortunately, there is no such thing as manufacturer supplied r/c and battery. Each locomotive needs a unique solution that you will have to figure out. Some attempts were made a few years ago to provide a "plug-and-play" interface in locomotives, so if you buy one of them you can plug in a receiver/throttle card that matches a transmitter and it takes a lot of the wiring issues away. It still doesn't solve your battery installation problems.


I suggest you google and read a few threads on this site. Some manufacturers, in particular RCS in Australia, have elaborate websites describing how it is done.


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## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

Thanks. I am thinking L shape dog bone, but no specific plan yet. Need to get out and measure then start something on paper.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Some people use garden hoses to layout their railroad full size. It might help you better visualize your choices.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

sdkid said:


> Hit EBAY today. Ordered a few years of Garden Railways magazine back issues. Subscribed to the current year also. I also found Garden Railroading, Getting started in the hobby from Kalmbach, its on the way too.
> 
> I also checked out Reindeer Pass and found the Rio Grande NW-2 starter set.
> 
> I'll be back, and thank you again for the great info.


I can get this set to you for $15 shipping.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Yes, it's remote control and very nice to have. You end up operating the locomotive not a train layout.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, there is no such thing as manufacturer supplied r/c and battery. Each locomotive needs a unique solution that you will have to figure out. Some attempts were made a few years ago to provide a "plug-and-play" interface in locomotives, so if you buy one of them you can plug in a receiver/throttle card that matches a transmitter and it takes a lot of the wiring issues away. It still doesn't solve your battery installation problems.
> ...


Air Wire has made an install in several locomotives pretty much plug and play. This includes most of the USA diesels and Bachmann with the plug and play socket.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When selecting battery one must be sure to watch the charging. I know of 2 different people that were not cautious enough and one lost his home!! Not a cheap solution.



I am not careful enough to do this so I went DCC plus the cost of replacing batteries in many engines. I use supercaps, not batteries.
Supercaps have lasted over 15 years in several of my engines!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dan Pierce said:


> When selecting battery one must be sure to watch the charging. I know of 2 different people that were not cautious enough and one lost his home!! Not a cheap solution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





How many years ago? Not as dangerous now, your phone has the same battery as the Li-ions of today. So does my 4 year old laptop.





On the slight chance, as Dan fear mongers for DCC, my batteries are removable, that's why I use a single P instead of X2, faster recharging times.


Upfront I asked what your plans are: a big empire or small with a couple of trains running. DCC is only cost effective with larger fleets, but for just a couple, Batteries do make sense.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I know it's early in the hobby for you to think about this and act, but a couple of things you really need to consider. Battery power or DCC, with sound and a R/C system, you can easily wrap up 3-500 bucks in one locomotive. So, if, your dream is to have say a half dozen locomotives, make sure you pay up front and transform each locomotive when you buy it or at least before you buy the next one. Let me tell you, once you get several locomotives and then go looking to power them all by battery or DCC, your head will spin when you see the total cost.
Also, figuring you'll be buying frt cars from different manufacturers, not all the couplers play well with each other. While not near as expensive as going to Battery or DCC, you still can get into quite an expensive job. As for what brand couplers to buy, you'll get different answers from each of us. Me, personally, I like the Kadees.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I like Kadees also, but for open houses I use double hook and loops as they have never failed me.


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## sdkid (Jan 1, 2019)

I've been resisting the urge to bid on EBAY due to not knowing how the different cars and track work together. I'll have to research that topic further. 

I plan to start with one loco then build up a layout that will handle a second train. Leaning towards battery powered. As for couplers, I'll just have to see what I have to start with and how I like them.

I watched Mark Found's series on you tube today, The Garden Railway. I think will help guide me. Certainly gave me more ideas and helped me dicied the level I will be working from. I like the raised bed design.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

If you stay with the hook & loop couplers which come with most all "NEW" freight cars, they all will work together just fine. It's when you get into the knuckle couplers which all the manufacturers typically include with their cars, loose in the box. The factory couplers are all typically truck mounted. It's may be the easy way to leave the couplers mounted to the trucks, but, this can become a problem if you plan to pull long freight trains and try backing them into a siding. Also, some manufacturers, Bachmann I believe, has their couplers mounter lower to the track then others. Going to body mounted couplers can be a problem as you may have to cut into the base and sometimes even the body of the freight car in order to get all the couplers at the same height. If you decide to go with the Kadees, get their Coupler height gauge. Use it and all your cars will have there couplers at the same height. Next, if you go with the Kadees, they have two sizes. Standard G and #1. While the #1 couplers look great, they require the track to be much closer to level with very slow changes in incline. They also typically will not hold as well when used with really long trains. When buying used and even new off ebay, check the couplers they have on the cars. Many used frt cars have the couplers changed to knuckles and they may not be of the same brand as the car.


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