# Propane to Butane Adaptor



## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I know it is a controversal subject, using Propane instead of Butane as the manufacturers recommend. I have seen one locomotive that was run on Propane. The propane was carried in a trailing tank car NOT in the manufacturer fuel tank. I have seen several mentioned here that also did so and wondered what was done to make it compatible. 
Amazon Description: "Disposable Propane tank to Butane Stove Adaptor with Preset Regulator"
I recently purchased a Butane filler similar to the ones we use and I guess the Amazon system thought I'd be interested in this also.
Just thought some one else may be curious as to how it was done. LG
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41AcUjF1jaL.jpg


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed Cook used only propane. I believe he used the disposable cylinder, and carried it in the trailing gondola...


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom the one I saw was screaming like a banshee, since the guy that had it didn't build it he couldn't tell me why. How did Ed's sound??? Thank You


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outdoor-Pic...165885?hash=item3601119e7d:g:HMoAAOSwCypWpzh8

using only the small valve for supply line butane/propane mix (( i will discard the big bottle fill adaptor ,don't want to be grilled alive !!!!)


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

lotsasteam, the adaptor I posted is for using the 14.1 oz (39.58g) propane tank as the train fuel tank, and it is regulated to reduce the pressure to be used in butane applications.
The product description of the adaptor you posted states it is for filling 340g (12 oz) Propane tanks from larger Propane tanks. Do you then use the smaller propane tank as a fuel tank, or do you fill the train manufacturer supplied tank with the propane? In either case how do you lower the pressure, as according to Avanti Gas, Propane is normally of a higher pressure than Butane. I am sincerely curious as I am considering using Propane for my AML K4. Thank you


From the Avanti Gas Site

There are two types of LPG - Propane and Butane. They have similar properties but different applications. They are not interchangeable due to the different operating pressures and burner settings required. Valves and fittings are also different to avoid confusion or accidental use of the wrong type of LPG.

Propane has a lower boiling point than butane so it will continue to convert from a liquid to a gas even in very cold conditions, down to -45ºC. When stored as a liquid in a tank, it exerts a greater pressure than Butane at the same temperature.

So Propane, as an LPG, is most suitable for exterior storage and use. Its ability to operate in low temperatures makes it the most suitable LPG for many applications. Propane is widely used as a fuel source for domestic and commercial heating, hot water and cooking. It also has a wide range of uses in industry and agriculture.

Butane has the lower vapour pressure at equivalent temperatures and is suitable for interior use or outside during the summer. Butane is a very common fuel amongst leisure users and owners of portable heaters. Propane and butane are normally stored in either portable steel cylinders or small bulk fixed storage tanks ready for use.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I converted a friends K36 to propane and it works very well. The main reason for the change is that using the camping gas (Premus etc.) was expensive. A $10 canister would give him two 45 minute runs. He now gets nearly 2 hours out of a $3 propane torch cylinder! I used a regulator valve from a sporting goods store that is designed to convert a Colman fuel stove to propane. The gas line from the trailing car is run through the tender with a quick connect on each end of the tender. The main problem we have is that the control valve is too far away from the smoke box to reach while lighting. Therefore it takes 2 people to light. The valve is also not easy to make fine adjustments. We plan to solve both these problems by putting an intermediate needle valve in the tender. The engine ran flawlessly for about 2 hours yesterday at my steam-up and open house.
I don't know if this link will work. https://www.amazon.com/Stansport-185-Propane-Converter/dp/B004RDQT92?SubscriptionId=AKIAIKOHFALUJCKC3KXQ&tag=bdlayer-split7-yd-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B004RDQT92&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

I am using the standard small butane /propane mix upright in a custom build tender with the (link)small valve adapter, so don't have to fill anything just swapping the mix canister!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, you made two points that I was going to, cost and run time, I agree. 'lotsasteam' your idea is better than trying to fill the manufacturer tank in the tender, can use it 'to the last drop' without any waste.
I also did more gas research. I ordered the regulator assembly and will enjoy this project right after I finish the two I am presently working on. Till Then 
Life is Good


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, If you need more information on how I did the conversion let me know. I do not have photos of what I did so will have to get with my friend to take some.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, I appreciate the offer. When I receive the regulator I will most likely take you up on your offer. I am also searching McMaster Carr to see if they offer small gas valves, if I come up with anything I'll share it. 
LG
EDIT: check out Flow Control Needle Valves on the Carr web site.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, I should receive the regulator in tomorrow's mail. If you would post those pics I'd appreciate it. Also, I think I found a needle valve that will fine adjust the flame, of in all places, a Home Brewing site. Won't know for sure till I hook everything up. Thank You


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

The gas regulator has a Schrader valve installed on the Butane side, probably a safety measure so it will not release the gas until an end device is connected. I removed the Schrader valve. The needle valve came with 1/4" NPT threads on each end. Threaded the regulator for 1/8 NPT and then a reducer and as you can see it all makes for a neat installation. Testing on the K4 in the next couple of days, I expect the air collars may have to be adjusted for the propane. LG


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

That looks like a really neat package. However, as I mentioned earlier, you might want to put the needle valve in the tender. That makes it easier to light as you can adjust the flow while watching the flame. I did get some not very good photos I will send to you shortly. Hope they will help.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, Here are the photos of the propane conversion we did. First is the gas bottle with the modified pressure regulator. I like the one you found better because we had to cut off the long pipe on this one and solder on a fitting that I made.









The bottle with regulator mounted in the gondola trailing car. The male end of the quick disconnect is being held on the edge of the car.









The gas line hanging from the front of the car.









The female quick disconnect mounted through the rear beam of the tender. The gas line runs up through the bottom of the car and then forward to the stock gas tank.









A rear view of the quick disconnect. They are available from The Train Department.









The plumbing inside the tender. I fabricated the fitting that ties the lines together. A standard Tee probably could be made to work for this. Actually when we install a needle valve this plumbing will change.









Front of the tender showing the stock jet assembly.









The trail car hooked to the tender.









I hope this helps. I will post details of the needle valve installation when we get that done. We are hosting 2 family reunions in the next 3 weeks so it may take a while!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, thank you very much, and the pics are very helpful. I like your regulator because it has a shut off valve right at the tank, another fine tuner valve can be put in the tender. I have a machine shop that I order my Rectus fittings, many configurations available. Did you have to make any air adjustments on the burners??
Thank You Again, I do like what you have done.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't recall having to make any air adjustments.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, thank you. I am glad to see that the locomotive you did it with is also a two burner unit. LG


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I assembled the components just using rubber tubing to test the compatibility and function of each before modifying the tender. Every thing worked together just fine, and the burners popped back on the very first try. I got this needle valve at Home Depot, part number LFA-42, which will be installed in the tender as per Winn's advice. I was skeptical at first since it is for water, but it had a very nice control of the gas. 1/4 + turn and it was on and was easily adjustable down to a small flicker. I left the valve at the regulator on full the whole time. Now for the tender. LG


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I got side tracked, and I'm sure this has happened to many of you also. While dismantling the K4 tender to make the modifications for the Propane delivery to the loco, I realized I can make a much more detailed mold for the water scoop than the one I pieced together from scraps in another thread for the G5. Just one more reason to love this hobby, one thing leads to another, and all fun. Thank You


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, I really like your setup. I think I saw the valve you used but wasn't sure it would work. I will go with the one I bought but it will need modification.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, which one did you get? LG


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Progress: made a T fitting in hopes of being able to feed the burners from either the propane tank in a trailing car or the butane tank in the tender, depending on the consist I am pulling. Propane for freight and butane for passenger, reason is the lead car in the passenger sets already have batteries for the lighting. Tested it with full pressure propane in a water bath even thought it will be used on the low pressure side of the regulator. Waiting for copper tubing and fittings coming from PM. LG


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the valve I got. It is called a saddle valve and is meant to be attached to a copper pipe and then the needle is screwed down until it pierces the pipe. That hole then becomes the valve seat. Here is the whole valve as purchased.









These are the parts I will actually use.









And the parts assembled.









I will shorten the needle and make a seat and nipple that will be soldered into the vertical part of the valve. Another nipple will be soldered into the side outlet. I will post pictures when the parts are completed.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, that should make a nice low profile installation. I had to cut the valve stem to shorten it to clear the coal load, and may still have to drill a small hole into the bottom of the coal cover.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

The piping in the tender is finished. I did have to drill through the metal plate under the coal load to clear the valve stem. Rather than have to make a circle or very tight S curves for the tender tank to line up with the T, I moved the tank 1/4" toward the rear. All joints and fittings tested with the high pressure propane in a tank of water. When I was sure I took it outside again charged it with high pressure propane and took a match to all fittings. I haven't chosen the car for the propane tank yet, but that should be easy. Thank You


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Very neat looking installation!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, thank you very much. nick jr


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Finished this project with the modification of an Aristo Box car to carry the propane tank. I built a frame work for the body to slide down on and align with floor for an easy on and off fit. Velcro straps and wooden wedges are used to secure the tank. Also changed the end configuration of the tank to shorten the assembly so it better fits the car I am using. Again tested all connections with the high side of the pressure tank, under water and glad I did. The brass sleeve under the car is only to keep the rubber tubing some what aligned with the tender fitting. The ID of the brass and the hole in the box car floor are large enough to allow the tubing to easily move in and out compensating for curves or other track irregularities. As a safety measure where the rubber tubing connects with the metal tubing, I soldered a strand of copper around the copper to act as a bead so there isn't as smooth surface for the rubber to slip off, and the small tie wrap helps insure that.
I am very happy with the outcome of this project and hope it inspires others to tackle their ideas, you'll figure out the details as you go along. LG


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks gents, a very interesting thread here for future reference. I have seen others using propane bottles in trailing cars several times at different steam ups.

Are there any concerns using propane vs butane for firing the locomotive? Researching the heat values of propane vs butane/propane mixes, I could not find a lot of information on heat values based on the way we use the gasses in a model train burner...

Jerry


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, here is what I just found. The propane seems to make more heat than butane. No matter how low I made the burner the relief valves just keep going off intermittently keeping the boiler at 60lbs, and i have the Jim Sanders WeeBee valves, they hold at EXACTLY 60 lbs on my pressure gauge. Never did that using butane and the flame at the pokers was much smaller than when using butane. Others may have had different results, but that is what I experienced this morning. If I may add, it was much easier to light, LG


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks Nick, real world experience beats web searching for sure!

I also have almost all WeeBee valves on my locos, and agree they are the best, precise and durable
Hmm, perhaps more running will give you some indication if that apparent higher heat value will effect your use of boiler water the generation of steam, and run time? That would be most interesting.

Most of my engines save my Aster Climax do not have water feed systems, so keeping an eye on water is essential.

Jerry


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, my K4 has an axle pump, but I still keep an eye on the water level, and I agree about the Wee Bee pop valves, the BEST. I am also curious of the long term use of the propane, maybe some one who has used it for some time or a representative of a manufacturer will chime in here?? I just ASSUMED ( and is well known the meaning) butane was used as it is of lower pressure for the manufacturer tanks and easier to fill from small vessels. Please let us know. thank you nick jr


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Regner has an adaptor which will work with propane tanks!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, took another run this morning on butane. Weather conditions almost exactly the same and dragged around the propane car in an attempt to duplicate yesterday's run. I didn't use the tender heater so as not to pull even the minuscule amount of steam, but did start with warm water in the tender. The relief vales only popped once, and that was when I was stopped to check the water level. . 
Run Time: The axle pump and 14.1 oz propane tank will run for I don't know how long so I think it is limited to the amount of steam oil. LG


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, I am glad to hear that your conversion is working well. You did a great job on the installation. I think this is a good solution for large locos that use a lot of fuel.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Nick
Thanks for the update, it sounds like you have this approach very well handled. I suppose I will stick with butane from the Korean store, but will keep this approach in mind as well

Regards

Jerry


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, I agree it is a great solution for loco's that use a lot of fuel for the reasons you mentioned, and I thank you for the compliments.
Jerry, et al: I couldn't leave well enough alone, and now I am really confused. I found a chart of gas Combustion with Air. Butane 1970'C, Propane 1967'C. Every where I looked the numbers comparing Propane and Butane temps seemed to be no more than 3 degrees apart. The only marked difference I could find was 'Amount of Air Required to Burn each, using 1 cuft of gas as a guide. Propane required 23.86 cuft of air and Butane 31.03 cuft of air, quite a difference. 
My runs: The propane reached pop off pressure in under 5 min, butane in almost 7. Pop off valves were going off almost al the time using Propane and only when stopped on Butane. I did my best to keep the speed the same during both runs.
Since I didn't adjust the air collars on the burners, the only thing I can come up with is it was drawing more air which - more oxygen and hence more heat. The collars were fully open for both runs. if there was too much air the Propane wouldn't ignite as easily as it did. This raises more ?? than answers. Life is Interesting


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Nick
Yes you found what I had somewhat confusing data on propane vs butane. As they seem to have very close BTU/# values.
But I think you are heading towards the explanation, that is seems to take less oxygen for propane to burn then butane, thus the end result is a hotter flame. Of course propane is also more volatile then butane so we like the mix for lower temp use, but I think the amount of combustion air is what makes propane hotter despite an almost identical BTU per unit of volume value for the two gasses.
This link, while talking about jewelry torches, talks about the volume of air as the deciding factor

http://juxtamorph.com/butane-versus-propane-which-is-hotter/

And since it is the heat delivered to our boilers that matters, perhaps that explains it,,,,or not.

Jerry,


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, after reading through the data you posted, and had to do it more than once, you explained it much better than i could have, I appreciate your help understanding this. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. LG


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