# QSI Titan and "direct drive" smoke



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just information here:

Using USAT smoke units (metal ones with fan) and modified Aristo units (new style rewired 4 wires direct to fan and heater)

Not really sure what the "stock" CV settings will be, but you should follow the settings on my web page:

*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>** 

I have gotten good results with a constant 12 volts to the heater.

I'll try to take pictures Saturday and post the modifications to the Aristo unit, and some more videos.

Owing to the current conflagration here if this thread turns to garbage, then just email me and I'll work with you personally offline.

Greg*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so 12 volts is too high for constant use for the smoke units I have tested, which are the new Aristo, USAT w/fan, and MTH (from a G scale Hudson) 

Make great smoke but outside temp of case is too hot. 

After some research, many of these have a working voltage of 6 volts for constant use, and run higher for short periods. 

MTH has minimum, medium, maximum settings. 
The Zimo people have modulated the (effective) voltage level when doing direct drive. 

On the QSI, the smoke heater is connected to J1A-6 and J1A-8.... this gets full rectified track voltage. 

The current firmware assigns has the rear cab light assigned to it. 

To control the intensity, you use CV 55.118.12, 255 giving you rectified track voltage, and lower is well, lower. 

On the QSI diagram, pin J1A-6 says 18 volts, but it is indeed not regulated or set there, it's rectified and somewhat filtered track voltage. 

I'm testing with a small HO DCC system right now, and full voltage is 11.55 volts 
setting the cv to half (128) gives 5.83 volts, so it's not linear 
playing a bit: 
220 = 10v 
198 = 9v 
176 = 8v 
154 = 7v 
132 = 6v 
110 = 5v


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Aug 2012 08:16 PM 

I'm testing with a small HO DCC system right now, and full voltage is 11.55 volts 
setting the cv to half (128) gives 5.83 volts, so it's *not* linear 
playing a bit: 
220 = 10v 
198 = 9v 
176 = 8v 
154 = 7v 
132 = 6v 
110 = 5v 

Greg,






Did you mean to say it *is* linear rather than that it is not?

Because if I go through the numbers you published above, the CV settings shown will give a calculated voltage that is within 1/10th of a volt or less of your measured voltage.
And for the CV=128, the calculation gives 5.80 volts compared to your measurement of 5.83 volts, that's close enough for the purpose this voltage is used for, ie drive something connected to the function output.
I would call the CV setting control linear based on your measurements.

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

MTH has minimum, medium, maximum settings. 
The Zimo people have modulated the (effective) voltage level when doing direct drive. 


Hi Greg, 

Could you explain that last statement a little? My understanding of the Zimo (say the 695kv) you have the choice of connecting the heater to regulated 5V, 10V, or full track power and then you specify by CV the percentage of that voltage for startup/acceleration, cruising speed, and deceleration. The fan is connected to a special outlet which is coordinated with the load and sound, and can also be set for idle etc. 
So for the USA trains smoke maker you would just use the 5V connection. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, have to amend the post... got some weird readings at first, so wrote the post here in the garage as I was measuring... got paranoid and hit the submit in case the "delete fairy" raised it's head... 

Data good... 

None of these smoke impressively at 5v, most are designed to run around 6v continuous... you can bet the videos you have seen are running much higher voltage. 

But the 5 or 10 or track power is just the supply side, the "input" for control allows you to modulate the effective voltage. 

I believe that the Zimo will modulate the heater voltage as you have stated. 

On the Zimo, I'll bet they are using the 10v or track voltage connection.. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

In the Zimo, I use 10 volts for the USA/Aristo type of elements with fan control, and I use the 10 volts for LGB 5 volt elements. 

For the LGB 18 volt and 24 volt units, this does not work and I use V+ as I do set the 3 cv's for standing, cruising, and accelerating. 

When using pulsed control for controlling average voltage, I try to keep the supply less than double the voltage rating of bulbs and heater elements. In fact the Zimo manual suggests this and tells us not to use track voltage (V+) for 5 volt bulbs or in HO for 1.5 volt bulbs!!.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm working on this myself right now, using a train-li smoke generator in a lionel 4-4-2. As I understand it, the smoke generator is somehow tied to the cab light? I was planning to install a cab light, but as I read your posts the cab light is given over to turning the smoke generator on and off. Is that right?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I spent a little time on it today, and I've decided to leave the smoke generator unconnected until qsi releases some documentation on how it works. There's too much that's just not clear to me.


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By lownote on 30 Aug 2012 12:49 PM 
I spent a little time on it today, and I've decided to leave the smoke generator unconnected until qsi releases some documentation on how it works. There's too much that's just not clear to me. This is most likely the smartest move based on your most resent posts. Some times technology is just to over whelming for some people and they need time to ketch up...

Jethro


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 30 Aug 2012 04:36 AM 

When using pulsed control for controlling average voltage, I try to keep the supply less than double the voltage rating of bulbs and heater elements. In fact the Zimo manual suggests this and tells us not to use track voltage (V+) for 5 volt bulbs or in HO for 1.5 volt bulbs!!. 
This warrants its own thread in the DCC section - it's not QSI decoder specific..

Knut


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Jethro J. on 30 Aug 2012 01:24 PM 
Posted By lownote on 30 Aug 2012 12:49 PM 
I spent a little time on it today, and I've decided to leave the smoke generator unconnected until qsi releases some documentation on how it works. There's too much that's just not clear to me. This is most likely the smartest move based on your most resent posts. Some times technology is just to over whelming for some people and they need time to ketch up...

Jethro

Jethro, maybe you can explain how to remap the lights? I'd really welcome some of your wisdom and experience. I'd like to remap the mars light to pin 11. The way I do it may not be the right way, based on the overwhelmingness of technology. Let me know, please.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lownote, you can go to my site for info. 

The smoke heater is tied to the REAR cab light, not the FRONT cab light.... both it and the fan outputs are in a group that is controlled by F12... 

In the future, I believe there will be specialized features associated with it. 

I'm publishing this for people trying it now. 

Also, I have to update my Aristo smoke mod, there is another trace to cut on their board... the Aristo board... the Aristo smoke unit board.... (just trying to be crystal clear). 

Anyway, before connecting any unit in "direct smoke" mode, make SURE that the fan wires are completely isolated electrically from the heater wires... I learned an expensive lesson last night when connecting 18 volts to a 5 volt microprocessor... ouch... 

Check the Titan page on my site, it's under construction, but some info on setting it up... 

Works great, 10 volts constant makes the units a little too warm in my opinion, need to only run at this voltage for a short time... I'm thinking the USAT units could exist at a higher voltage, but the body of all of these units gets too hot, so maybe I might fan cool them if I want the max smoke. 

I need to look at how MTH handles this, because their unit get dang hot also... maybe they have a die-cast boiler that acts as a heat sink. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, i have been reading your site regularly. But I was really hoping for the benefit of jethro's wisdom.










I have to rethink the way I mounted the train-li unit before I start trying to test it


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sure that Axel and crew correctly modified the Aristo unit, but double check the electrical isolation as I mentioned. 

Do you have any doubt as to the 4 terminals to connect to? 

My suggestion is to put some kind of load across the "heater terminals" and measure the voltage with just an analog meter, then set to 8 volts and see how you like it. The voltage will be determined not only by the CV specified on my site, but of course the track voltage, since this is running from an unregulated output. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The latest train-Li pro-smoke unit only has the fan motor and heating element inside, no other components, no etches need o be cut. 

Interesting enough the red wire is fan motor minus!! Manufacturer does not follow our DC codes for black minus and red plus!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan: Good to know, maybe I need to buy one for evaluation. Yes, checking polarity and wiring has been a universal "motto" for me, have found wiring issues like this in EVERY loco except LGB. 

Lownote: just wondering if you still have questions where help can be given. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The smoke heater is tied to the REAR cab light, not the FRONT cab light.... both it and the fan outputs are in a group that is controlled by F12... 

Are you kidding me?? Sounds to me like someone is trying to solve a problem with function mapping or available functions, otherwise what could possibly be the logic in doing something like this? The user should be able to group them themselves.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 31 Aug 2012 09:28 AM 
The smoke heater is tied to the REAR cab light, not the FRONT cab light.... both it and the fan outputs are in a group that is controlled by F12... 

Are you kidding me?? Sounds to me like someone is trying to solve a problem with function mapping or available functions, otherwise what could possibly be the logic in doing something like this? The user should be able to group them themselves. 

I am lost on this thread. Why would anyone tie the heater to rear light or front light for all that matters?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it turns out that the idea to drive the smoke unit fan and heater directly was a recent idea, and not encompassed in the HO version of the Titan. 

There is software development in progress to make this "cleaner", but all pimping aside, the extreme flexibility of the Titan allowed this with some simple programming. 

The default is that the 2 outputs for the fan and heater are tied to F12, and also the fan is tied to a feature that syncs with the chuff. The heater output is a heavy duty output capable of handling well over the amp worst case of the heating elements I have used. 

Yeah, I know the Zimo has the function, I gave you your kudos already! 

For most users, they could give a blank what the names of the features are and how it was done. 

And the use CAN group them as he wants, this is just the default setting... 

Let's not turn this into "I don't like that programming mode".... Again, I'm trying to help people that want to use these functions since they are brand new. 

If you want to have a mud slinging competition about whose decoder is better, I can sling mud at all of them, every decoder made has stupid quirks... 

Doing this stuff takes away from the people who need the information, so you are just helping confuse people and dilute the information presented.... 

Go start a thread to rag on programming practices on your own please... 

Greg


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,

There are those of us here that appreciate your post and the learning's that you share on this site.
Those who do not like QSI just need to to remember if they don't like what's being posted they can just log off. Last time I checked they are still free to leave the site unless there's some new government regulation about needing to meet their daily whine entitlement before they can log-off.


I just received my Titan from Tony yesterday and I am reviewing many of your posts to understand how you are setting up the smoke function. I will be installing it in an aristo mallet so keep the information coming.

Tim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Tim, it's people like you who I am posting for. 

I will have an update to the modifications to the Aristo smoke unit, there are 4 traces to cut, my site says 3. 

I should have more data on the Aristo smoke unit and setup and clean up the settings on my page this weekend, specifically what voltage to the smoke unit comes from what settings. 

I'm really looking forwards to actually running my Consolidation rather than having it torn apart as a test mule! 

Greg


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By tmmhead on 31 Aug 2012 03:27 PM 
Greg,

There are those of us here that appreciate your post and the learning's that you share on this site.
Those who do not like QSI just need to to remember if they don't like what's being posted they can just log off. Last time I checked they are still free to leave the site unless there's some new government regulation about needing to meet their daily whine entitlement before they can log-off.


I just received my Titan from Tony yesterday and I am reviewing many of your posts to understand how you are setting up the smoke function. I will be installing it in an aristo mallet so keep the information coming.

Tim


Wow couldn't of said it better myself, Its really nice to see that someone who actually owns one verifying how great it is, Could you send it to knut so that he actually can see one before reviewing it.
Its not rocket science, "some" are a little slower than others and need time to catch up....... Gregs a great resource and if asked and not pestered it seems like he will help anyone who needs it.

Jethro 
A proud QSI customer
unlike knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Important finding I am posting in every QSI thread: 

You MUST have a motor connected to the Titan when programming. The original QSI did not require this. The Titan does. Just spent quite a few hours with someone who used his existing bench programming setup that did not include a motor connected. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I installed a smoke generator in a qsi decoder today. The smoke generator is from train li. I set it to operate at 7 volts. It works well. The fan is synced to the chuff very well. The smoke generator does not produce a great deal of smoke though. I've been using mth smoke fluid so far. 



It does puff out in time to the chuff, and the firebox flickers in time to the chuff. It's a nice effect but far from spectacular. It would be great with a really big smoke generator like the harbor freight model, I suppose. 


I have not tried upping the voltage as I don't want it to get too hot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You will find that many of the "demonstrations" are running at a higher voltage. Try 9 volts. Monitor the heat of course. 

The Train-Li is a gutted Aristo from what I understand. Remember to fill the reservoir. You can easily use 3.5 cc when it's dry. The reservoir overflows at 4.5 cc, but going much over 4 cc will slop around and drip out. 

Also, I'd be sure to have a way to turn the heater off with a mechanical switch as an override. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The train li unit has some of the weaknesses of the aristo unit--it does not seem to reliably generate smoke for a consisten length of time. I'm planning to try and map some light or other to the smoke generator, since it's hard to tell when it's on and when it's not


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Weird Mike.... on my modified Aristo units, they smoke great until I use up the fluid and then you can easily tell... 

Please be sure that you are putting enough smoke fluid in, because it uses it pretty fast... use a syringe and put in 3.5 cc to 4 cc... you should get over 10 minutes at 8 or 9 volts. 

What is the actual voltage you can measure (although it is of course pulsed) ... I'd measure with an analog meter if you can. 

You can add another lighting output to the group... I was thinking of a "smoke on" indicator on my locos, but the fan sound is an easy way to tell.. 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

How did you rule out that it is not the QSI?

And does the QSi have three different heat settings? Under full load you should "fireUp" the heating element more (not the fan).

Also does the QSi have an electric break? If you do not break the fan motor, then the chuff effects are not as dramatic. You can see properly adjusted smokers with ZIMO on Youtube.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axle, I don't come on a "help with Zimo" thread and cast aspersions on the Zimo unit. 

Why do you have to start an "I'm better" battle? 

This thread is to help people using the QSI, not to do a comparison with other decoders. 

This is really inappropriate especially since you are the US importer for Zimo, and I'm just a guy relating my experiences and trying to help others with QSI as stated once ALREADY in this thread. 

Why not start your own thread? 

Greg 

(I guess this was triggered by my comments on the Train Li smoke unit... if my statements about the Train-Li smoke unit are wrong please address those, but the quantity of smoke is not going to be any better with any particular decoder since the volume is controlled by the heater voltage, UNLESS you are running the fan motor out of spec, i.e. over 5 volts)


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