# wiring reverse loops



## lstc-superintendent (Jul 20, 2008)

I have just installed a large "dogbone" loop ,using LGB #16050 turnouts with an electric #12010 style switch mach. I would like to let the train run into the loop and then "runthrough" the LGB switch coming out of the loop. I just want the train to run into and out of each loop without having to throw a switch machine or manually throwing a DPDT switch to reverse the polarity. The problem is reversing the polarity when the train is in the loop. I have tried using an Atlas "Snap Relay", but so far I have only fried it! I tried using a momentary micro switch, but the relay will not throw unless it is powered and then touching the mico switch. The train will activate the micro switch, but my problem is powering the snap relay without burning it out. Thanks in advance for any help.
Mike McILwaine


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Your easiest solution would be the LGB reverse loop track set. It comes with two sections of track. Each section has its purpose. Both sections are placed inside of the loop. In your case you will need two sets. They can be had on Ebay from time to time. If you have LGB's book "The World Of LGB", it explains reverse loop[s in great detail. Even I can understand the three different ways they give to build a reverse loop for analogue layouts. If you don't have a good relationship with electronics, like me, this book will be your bible.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I would suggest you try this set up - the original comes from Maarten in the Netherlands.
You need reeds between the rails and a magnet attached underneath the loco to automate everything.

Big picture but at least you can see the electrical connections clearly

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 22 Aug 2009 04:43 PM 
Your easiest solution would be the LGB reverse loop track set. It comes with two sections of track. Each section has its purpose. Both sections are placed inside of the loop. In your case you will need two sets. They can be had on Ebay from time to time. If you have LGB's book "The World Of LGB", it explains reverse loop[s in great detail. Even I can understand the three different ways they give to build a reverse loop for analogue layouts. If you don't have a good relationship with electronics, like me, this book will be your bible.


That LGB track set requires that one manually reverses the direction switch on the throttle while the train is in the reverse loop.
It's very simple and effective but doesn't provide the fully automated operation requested.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's things like this that make me think about going to DCC. A DCC system will do reverse loops automatically with no additional wire whatsoever.

Dave Bodnar has some info on reverse loops on his site:

http://www.davebodnar.com/ 

Also George Schreyer's fantastic site:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips.html


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 22 Aug 2009 04:55 PM 
It's things like this that make me think about going to DCC. A DCC system will do reverse loops automatically with no additional wire whatsoever.

Sorry - that is not quite true.

With a DCC reverse loop module you still need at least four wires, granted a lot fewer than wiring the switch machines, but no "no additional wires whatsoever"
But one really only does the wiring once - so I don't ree it as such a big deal.

DCC reverse loop modules have their own problems.
Most of them depend on the wheels of the loco creating a short-circuit which then triggers the DCC reverse loop module. Depending on the way the short is detected (voltage drop or current increase) and the switching time of the module, this can cause problems over time.
A number of new DCC reverse loop modules like the Massoth one for instance, now also provide the option to use reed switches and magnets to control the reverse loop module. That eliminates the short-circuit detection problem.


What I haven't seen in Large Scale yet (although it's popular in some smaller scales) is to use a double insulated gap in the rail as the trigger mechanism. That would eliminate the need for magnets and reed switches.

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

This is something I came up with in dispute of the falicy that the train always has to go through the reverse loop in the same direction. This can be used with manual or electric turnouts and the trains alternate directions each time they go through the loop. The relays and power supply can be any voltage, just so they are matched. A magnet is placed under the engine. Note that while the schematic shows five 4pdt relays, only two are 4pdt and the others can be spdt.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 22 Aug 2009 05:35 PM 

This is essentually equivelent to the LGB schematic posted by KRS except that the LGB system uses the 12050/12030 as latching relays. In my schematic the 4pdt relays will "self latch" and the other relays serve to "unlatch" them. Also, using no LGB parts, this can be constructed more economically.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Todd,

2 questions: Does it really take that many relays for a common reversing loop? I'm tired, not grasping exacty what I'm seeing. And it's automatic? (For DC track).

2nd question:

Why is this screen so huge I've got to horizontal scroll like, 3 feet to see all of it? That's kinda hard, y'know?










Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les, 
I have a hunch that knut's diagram wasn't resized by the uploader and that widened the screen.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Sorry -

That diagram isn't nearly as wide when I look at it on my mls web space.

But here is a smaller one (I hope):


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Les on 22 Aug 2009 06:09 PM 
Todd,

2 questions: Does it really take that many relays for a common reversing loop? I'm tired, not grasping exacty what I'm seeing. And it's automatic? (For DC track).

2nd question:

Why is this screen so huge I've got to horizontal scroll like, 3 feet to see all of it? That's kinda hard, y'know?










Les


OK - I reduced the size of my diagram so you don't have to scroll.

That answers your second question.

To answer your first question - there is also a DC reversing loop schematic (works for DCC as well) that uses a single latching relay. I'll dig it out and post it here.
That single latching relay still uses a magnet under the loco and reed switches between the track, but with a bit of work, that could be changed to use double gaps in the rail and no magnet or reed switches.

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Les on 22 Aug 2009 06:09 PM 
Todd,

2 questions: Does it really take that many relays for a common reversing loop? I'm tired, not grasping exacty what I'm seeing. And it's automatic? (For DC track).

2nd question:

Why is this screen so huge I've got to horizontal scroll like, 3 feet to see all of it? That's kinda hard, y'know?










Les


Lizard Bash Loop Control

The included diagram uses five relays to automatically control the polarity of both the loop and main line. While all relays are shown as 4pole double throw (4pdt), not all of the poles are used on every relay. Furthermore, Relay 4 is redundant to Relay 3, but is necessary for a fifth pole on that relay. If a 5pdt (or more) relay is obtained, Relay 3 may be replaced and the pole contacts on Relay 4 may be shifted to Relay 3 alleviating the need for Relay 4.

As illustrated, the relays use 6 volts. But any voltage relays may be used, so long as the proper voltage is used to trigger them. The voltage connections that power the relay coils are shown in red while the current that goes to the tracks is in black. The Power Pack represents the power supply that actually runs the trains. The two Reed Switches are Normally Open (N/O). The Turn Out Toggle (TOT) represents the toggle switch that would be on the control panel used to activate an LGB turnout motor (or equivalent). We’ll use a double pole double throw (dpdt) switch that is off in the center position and spring loaded to return to the center. We’ll use one half of the switch (left blank in the diagram) to activate the turnout (assuming a common ground). The other half of the dpdt switch will activate the Lizard Bash Loop Control (LBLC).

Follow along the diagram as you take a ride through the loop and see what happens.

On our first trip, we’ll proceed from left to right (clockwise) going through the “straight section” of the turnout.

Current flows from the power pack through Relay 1, Pole 3 and 4 (counting up from the bottom of the diagram) (R1P3 and R1P4) to the main line so the train has power. It then flows from the track (would actually be from R1P3 and R1P4 but this is more intuitive and serves for illustration purposes), through R3P3 and R3P4 to the loop so the train has power when it enters the loop.

The operator toggles the turnout pushing the switch down. Voltage is applied to Relay 5 pulling down the armature. R5P1 is pulled down. Because no voltage is flowing to pole 1, nothing happens. (That’s OK at this point.) The train proceeds and first encounters Reed Switch 1 (RS1). The magnet closes the reed and voltage flows to R3P2. Because the circuit is open at this point, nothing happens and the reed switch is ignored.

The train continues on and encounters RS2. The magnet closes the reed and voltage flows to R3P2. From there it continues on to R1P2, firing Relay 1. When Relay 1 fires, it reverses the current to the main line. But that then reverses the current to the loop and if left like this, the train would go backward before it reaches the main line again. (More on this in a moment.) When Relay 1 fires it also completes the circuit so that voltage flows through R1P1. This voltage continues on through R2P1, and back to the Relay 1 coil. This then makes Relay 1 stay “fired” (keeping the current to the main line reversed) even after the train clears the Reed Switch.

As noted, when the current to the main line is reversed, it also reverses the current to the loop and the train would go backward when triggering RS2. As such, when the train passes over RS2 firing Relay 1, it also fires Relays 3 and 4 through R4P1. Relay 3 then reverses the current to the loop at the same time Relay 1 reverses the current to the main line. So the current to the loop is reversed and reversed again and stays as it was before the train passed over the reed switch. When Relay 3 fires it pulls R3P1 completing that circuit. Voltage flows thought R3P1, then though R5P1 keeping Relays 3 and 4 fired after the train clears the reed switch.

At this point, the control of the turnout points can be accommodated though this circuitry (with some modification), can be controlled using the typical LGB circuitry (adding the appropriate reed switch to activate the turnout) but without the bother of polarity control), or the train can simply “push the points” into position as the train transitions out of the loop onto the main line and pulls away.

So the train pulls away and takes care of business later to return to the loop. The turnout points are still where they were when the train left, either because they were fired by circuitry or because the wheels simply pushed them over. If left unattended, the train proceeds through the loop, this time in a counter clockwise direction through the curved leg of the turnout and first encounters RS2. Voltage flows though the reed switch to R3P2. But the relay is still in its active state and the voltage comes to an unconnected relay contact, and the Reed Switch is ignored. The train proceeds on and encounters RS1. Voltage flows again to R3P2 and this time passes through the relay on to R1P2. Relay 1 is also still energized, and the voltage passes through R1P2 and fires Relay 2. When Relay 2 fires, R2P1 opens interrupting the voltage that has been holding Relay 1 open and Relay 1 closes. This then reverses the current to the mainline. 

Again, the mainline feeds the loop and to keep the train from going backward before reaching the main line, the voltage from RS2 passes through R3P2 to R4P1 (that is still in a fired position along with Relay 3) to the coil on Relay 5. This fires Relay 5 that removes the voltage that holds Relays 3 and 4 open. Relays 3 and 4 then reverse simultaneous with the main line and the current from the main line and loop are again in sync.

This will go on repeatedly with trains alternating clockwise/counterclockwise as infinitum without intervention. If the user decides to alter this natural rhythm, he can do so by toggling the turnout. This resets the relays to whatever “state” is selected through the Turn Out Toggle (TOT) also used to activate the turnout. When the TOT is pushed down it sends voltage to the Relay 5 coil pulling the armature that breaks the circuit through R5P1 holding Relays 3 and 4 open and they revert to the original clockwise direction relative to the main line. When the TOT is pushed up, it fires Relays 3 and 4 to the counterclockwise direction relative to the main line and they will latch in that position by sending voltage through R3P1 followed by R5P1.

That’s it in a nutshell. Enjoy.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

The LGB diagrams shown in the book I mentioned provide for three modes of wiring reverse loops. Yes, one is manual operation, however the other two are fully automatic, no hands mom, operations. One of those allows the train to enter the loop from either direction, while in the other one, the train must traverse the loop in the same direction all of the time. I have this type on my layout, which is fully automated, in four places (four reverse loops) and they have been operating flawlwssly for years. The other opinions mentioned are from members alot more talented than I when it comes to fancy electronics. However, for me, I prefer the KISS method, as running an outdoor railway requires enough maintainance as it is.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I was replying specifically to your post where you suggest the use of LGB Reverse Loop Set - 

The easiest solution would be the LGB reverse loop track set. It comes with two sections of track. Each section has its purpose. Both sections are placed inside of the loop. In your case you will need two sets. 

That LGB Reverse Loop Set will only give you manual operation. 
If you want automatic operation, one will have to add at least one additional component to reverse track polarity. 
Yes - two options of that are covered in the LGB book, there are also a number of other ways to do that - with and without LGB components. 

I just didn't want to leave anyone with the impression that using the LGB reverse loop set will provide automatic operation. 

Knut


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 22 Aug 2009 04:55 PM 
It's things like this that make me think about going to DCC. A DCC system will do reverse loops automatically with no additional wire whatsoever.

Dave Bodnar has some info on reverse loops on his site:

http://www.davebodnar.com/ 

Also George Schreyer's fantastic site:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips.html


Specifically I would suggest checking this article on the TrainElectronics.com web page

Reverse Loops Article


dave


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By dbodnar on 23 Aug 2009 11:26 AM 

Specifically I would suggest checking this article on the TrainElectronics.com web page

Reverse Loops Article


dave


I haven't had a chance to read that article, just glance through it quickly, but it looks like excellent information.

One wiring diagram using a single latching relay is shown below.
It needs a bit of work because this was a design for an N-scale layout where switches use three-wire control instead of two-wire control as with LGB. 

Also - some symbols might be a bit strange since this schematic is from Europe, but it's a great starting point for a simple and effective reverse loop controller.

With that particular one, one can travel around the reverse loop in either direction and everything is fully automatic.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

DCC is far and away the easiest way to deal with this for track power. Battery RC is also easy, just ignore the whole problem... 

The DCC autoreverse modules do need a short to detect when they need to operate, but they operate so quickly that there seems to be no downside. DCC, however well it works, tends to have a high entry cost. However, once that barrier is past, it's great.


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 22 Aug 2009 07:15 PM 
Sorry -

That diagram isn't nearly as wide when I look at it on my mls web space.

But here is a smaller one (I hope):









I have been running this system for the past year in my basement. While it is wire intensive, it works great. Currently I have it torn apart to upsize the wires to cut the voltage drop (LGB wire and old phone wire to 16ga). The reverse loop using two LGB 10151 had a much more noticable drop due to the diodes.

If you plan on backing your trains inside the loops install magnets on your cabooses and it doesn't know the difference.

Paul


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!









Ed


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)




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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 24 Aug 2009 07:17 AM 
I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!













Really!
I tried battery power about 5 years ago and found it much too restrictive in many ways for my liking.


As I mentioned earlier - for any of the option discussed here one does the wiring once - so I don't see this as an issue at all.
But each to his own.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to say this is the best advertisement for DCC and autoreversers. 

DC track power reversing loops have always been a bugaboo. 

I guess I owe you one in a battery only thread huh Ed? 

Don't complain the next time I do this in a battery thread. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cross over threads...been done already.. Marty's Q was in bat power..... 

I agree with Ed, my spring switch eliminates all extra wiring. A plus as my ground is hard and very rocky, no digging for conduits, required because local pack rats love to eat wires. 

Greg, your electrical engineering education makes DCC far simpler for you than most of us... perhaps I wouldn't be as leery if I had your education. 

Disclaimer: Because I use a floating battery and track power I can post wherever I want! neener neener! (the kid in me) 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually the autoreverser is so simple it's ridiculous... just put it in line with the power to the reversing section. No knowledge needed. That's why George said it was simple. 

It's actually simpler than many of the "new" systems, but there is an entire contingent out there that make it a "fear and doubt" situation. 

I have DCC, DC, Aristo TE (old style) Aristo TE (Revo), AirWire, NCE, and QSI at my house right now. 

I can speak from using them all. 

All my friends are not electrical engineers. 

To get up and going on all 3 systems is pretty fast, but honestly, I can bring up a person on DCC track power faster than anything else, it's less steps. AirWire is second, especially if you use the new NCE throttle and a QSI, a little more time for using the AirWire receiver and a separate sound card. 

I had someone across the country running DCC in 15 minutes flat from ground zero, talking him through it over the phone. 

So, people that bang a drum really should have experienced all the options before condemning anything else. 

That's all I am saying... people have complained that I "invade" a battery thread with track power... well here is the battery power invasion of track power... so what is the difference? 

It's a forum, you can say what you want... but support statements with fact, not a hidden agenda to convert everyone to the Aristo TE and battery power. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By krs on 24 Aug 2009 08:53 AM 
Posted By eheading on 24 Aug 2009 07:17 AM 
I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!














As I mentioned earlier - for any of the option discussed here one does the wiring once - so I don't see this as an issue at all.
But each to his own. 




Agreed. Do it once and it's done! If you can follow a road map and use a soldering iron, you can wire a reverse loop using any of the included diagrams. After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 24 Aug 2009 12:28 PM 

After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.


I never liked the magnet under the loco and reed switch concept too much.

Works great, but if anyone ever comes over to run their train on such a layout and their engine doesn't have the magnet attached - well, then of course none of this works.

We often visit other layouts with our equipment, so for me this is always a consideration - but it doesn't seem that common that people run their equipent on someone else's layout.

Anyway - keeping with the "Traditional DC" subject, has anyone ever seen or used the functional equivalent of magnet/reed switch by cutting a double insulated gap in one rail to provide a trigger point that way?
That would eliminate the dependancy on magnet/reed switch completely and any circuit driven by that arrangement woiuld be compatible with any engine as long as it has metal wheels.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Aug 2009 11:34 AM 
Actually the autoreverser is so simple it's ridiculous... just put it in line with the power to the reversing section. No knowledge needed. That's why George said it was simple.


Every once in a while I think: "Why can't one design an auto-reverser like that for analog power?"

Even though the total powering concept is very different between DC abd DCC, this module in principle would work the same way.
First metal wheel passes the insulating gap, creates a short, auto-reverser flips the polarity of the section that has the reverse polarity.

There was a unit like that many moons ago called Polator. I managed to find one on ebay several years back but I have never seen a recent one for Large Scale.
There was one for the smaller scales, but somehow this unit never caught on.
Don't really know why.

Greg - which auto-reversers are you using?
I'm always a bit leery of the ones using relays to switch polarity (probably most of them) since there will be some short circuit current for 20 msec or so until the relay operates.
Some auto-reversers are fully solid state - they switch in Microseconds.

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By krs on 24 Aug 2009 12:54 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 24 Aug 2009 12:28 PM 

After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.


I never liked the magnet under the loco and reed switch concept too much.

Works great, but if anyone ever comes over to run their train on such a layout and their engine doesn't have the magnet attached - well, then of course none of this works.

We often visit other layouts with our equipment, so for me this is always a consideration - but it doesn't seem that common that people run their equipent on someone else's layout.

Anyway - keeping with the "Traditional DC" subject, has anyone ever seen or used the functional equivalent of magnet/reed switch by cutting a double insulated gap in one rail to provide a trigger point that way?
That would eliminate the dependancy on magnet/reed switch completely and any circuit driven by that arrangement woiuld be compatible with any engine as long as it has metal wheels.

Knut 




Simple matter to use a piece of double-sided tape to stick a neodymium magnet under the engine and only takes a moment.

As for the second part, yes, I did this years ago and documented it on this site (as well as the other one). (See the Tortoise Bump Accident Sentinal System (Bump A.S.S.) schematic for control of red/green LED signals adjustable to any time length starting from either the first wheel to pass or last wheel to pass.) It works with any engine or rail car with metal wheels and has served me faithfully for years protecting my 30 degree crossing. (Just try to do that with battery power!)










In fact, using the Lizard Loop Reverse methodology, this could be done in this instance. The +6 volts that goes to each of the reed switches would jut need to be attached directly to the rail itself. The "sensors" are simply a short piece of track that is just long enough to fit in the void space created by two back-to-back AristoCraft/LGB track insulators. The short piece of track situated between the insulators would have a wire soldered to it and this would be the switched wire that would come off of the reed switch to the relays in the schematic. A track-to-track jumper wire would also be soldered around the "sensor" to ensure track continuity. 

That's all it would take. The only caveat (and the reason I don't do it for my leap frog), is that every metal wheel will activate it. So in the case of the reverse loop, it is a simple matter of placing the "sensors" farther apart than your longest train. The reason it doesn't work for a leapfrog situation is that after the first weheel passes and activates the system, the second wheel passes and shuts it down before the train ever gets away.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, I have no clue why someone does not do it for DC... I have a theory, that it's much easier to power from the AC of DCC than straight DC, maybe something to do with latchup of a transistor that is being used for a relay, sort of... but I really cannot understand why it's not available. 

I use the DCC specialties stuff, the PSX-AR... it comes in several flavors, some with optional extras like like switch controllers. I like it because it is programmable, both with jumpers and/or DCC commands, it is fast, but it is also one of the highest power units I have found, will run over 10 amps. It also does not false often. Mine has been trouble free, and my friend, who I introduced to DCC over the phone has 2 of them, again, trouble free. No relays of course, you would not want something like this running with relays, chatter and just the speed issue would not be good. 

(note for anyone misunderstanding my comment: an autoreverser works by sensing a short because of wrong polarity, you want it to switch really fast, as not to disrupt any communications or other trains, so I am NOT denigrating relays, or Todd's creative use of relays). 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Aug 2009 03:07 PM 
I use the DCC specialties stuff, the PSX-AR... it comes in several flavors, some with optional extras like like switch controllers. I like it because it is programmable, both with jumpers and/or DCC commands, it is fast, but it is also one of the highest power units I have found, will run over 10 amps. It also does not false often. Mine has been trouble free, and my friend, who I introduced to DCC over the phone has 2 of them, again, trouble free. No relays of course, you would not want something like this running with relays, chatter and just the speed issue would not be good.


Thanks Greg - 

I have never heard of the PSX-AR or the company for that matter.


Looking at the PSX-AR documentation, it sounds like a small outfit with an engineer or two but nobody on the documentation/marketing end. 


As to auto-reversers, most of them actually use relays to do the track switching, the logic control is of course solid-state and has been for years.
I think even Zimo went to an reverse loop controller using solid state outputs only a short while ago.

Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The company is a small one who custom designs electronics for Tony's Trains... I did not figure this out until after I bought it. 

I'm surprised to hear you say most autoreversers use relays... I haven't found that, but I did not research this deeply because I only focused on G scale units that could handle a lot of current, and there are not many made that can even handle more than 5 amps. 

The PSX-AR was mentioned in the Railroad Model News, and what it could do sounded great. Years later, I'm still happy with it and have not found anything better. 

Yes documentation is not really what you would call verbose, but I only need it to work and to set the trip current I want. It does that beautifully. 

As an engineer, I try to avoid mechanical items, physical movement eventually causes wear. The autoreverser in my NCE system is likewise solid state entirely. Old DCC decoders used relays to reverse motor direction and they are now considered dinosaurs. 

That's my experience. 

Regards, GReg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I only found out that most of the auto-reverses (I looked at) use relays as the switching element if 
(a) you take one apart, or 
(b) the company announces the new and improved version using solid state switching. 

It's not something they advertise. 

Yes - many models only handle 5 amps or less, the Zimo one only handles 3 amps. 

But I forgot about the new Massoth one. 
This is a brand new design that handles up to 15 amps AND................ 
...Does DCC switching either triggered by detecting a short as the conventional DCC ones, or 
...by using reed switches as controls, ie no short circuit to initiate the switching, or 
--by using the sensor type rails I mentioned earlier. 

And to top it off - this module can also be used for analog reverse loops, the subject of this thread. 
I can't believe I didn't think of that unit earlier. 

Massoth Reverse Loop Module ⇐THIS IS A LINK!


As to the PSX-AR documentation - I found it difficult to follow because the information is very poorly presented - both the content and the layout. 
Pity, because the unit itself looks pretty sophisticated and is a solid design per your experience. 
And the price is certainly reasonable - I always find Massoth on the expensive side, but their products are certainly solid. 

knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like lots of features, but I like the simple wiring of a "standard" autoreverser. The short is detected so quickly, I have never noticed any disturbance to anything else. 

An advantage in large scales, is that you can "tolerate" a short circuit because you can pump a lot of amps under normal conditions. 

But the ability to use it for DC is a good find... will remember this next time someone asks for it... 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The PSX-AR also supports 19 amps. I don't use it that high, my loads are much smaller where I use them, but the two that I have perform flawlessly. It really is as simple as cutting a wire and sticking the autoreverser in series. 

I designed and built my own custom autoreverser for a DC layout nearly 15 years ago. It still works... at least I think it does. I haven't used it since I converted that layout to DCC and put a PSX-AR in to do that job. I could flip a couple of switches and go back to DC but there is no need to anymore. DCC works so much better. 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips3/reversing_tips.html


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 25 Aug 2009 03:35 PM 
The PSX-AR also supports 19 amps.


George -

Is that mentioned anywhere on the web site or the manual?
That's actually part of the reason I find the documentation very poor.
I couldn't find any basic specs on the unit. In addition, the user manual is set up very illogical plus it's hard to read because everything is set up as a single column.
The text should be in two or even three columns - makes it much easier to read.

In any case, the only 19 amp reference I found glancing through the manual was for the trip current adjustment - nothing I saw indicated the maximum switching current the unit could handle.


knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It will handle 19 amps, and trip at 19.1 on that setting.

I went back and looked at the manual, it's not that tough Knut, you are a smart guy.

It's not verbose, or hand-holding, but it's not rocket science, and I would not rate it poor.

Here's the manual for all to judge: *http://www.dccspecialtie...>*

Since this is a set once and forget it for years situation, I think you are overdoing it. It's an inexpensive product that works great, what else do you want? Whipped cream? 


Regards, Greg *
*


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg - 

I'm not saying anything is tough, all I'm saying is that this is a very poor manual. 

I just looked at it again and it looks like someone copied a bunch of pages from some engineer's logbook. 

There is no structure, the manual doesn't even provide the basics, a table of contents, an index and a summary of the basic specs just to mention a few. 
The "Quick Start Guide" which is usually a separate sheet or booklet or at least is at the very beginning of a typical manual - after the cover page and table of contents, is on the second to last page. 

To find any information, one has to flip through the whole thing rather than just check the index to find the right section. 

I must admit that I haven't read every word in the manual cover to cover - but I didn't see anything that would suggest that the unit can switch 19 amps. 
All it says is that 19.1 amps is one of the trip current settings, the highest actually, but that is the trip current, that has nothing to do with the switching current. 

Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

it will switch anything below the trip current... Mine is set at about 11 amps now... went over that the other day, will set it up a few amps higher. 

I sense something else here, are you wanting to challenge that it can handle that much current? Do you need that much current? 

Anyway, I'll up it this weekend... I got another USAT streamliner and with 8 lighted cars and 3 E8's under load I can spike pretty high... 

Nothing better than actual experience to tell you what REALLY happens. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

the thing will work until it trips. If you set it to 19.1 amps, it'll supply that much until it trips... provided that your booster can source 19 amps.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Aug 2009 09:54 PM 

I sense something else here, are you wanting to challenge that it can handle that much current? Do you need that much current? 


No, nothing like that.


All I'm saying is that the trip current and the maximum switching current the unit can handle are two totally unrelated parameters.

Obviously, the switching current the unit is capable of *should* be higher than the maximum trip current that can be programmed, but it will only be higher if the output switching devices can handle that.
Not that this needs to be an issue - there are plenty of inexpensive high current MOSFETS available, but you can't assume that if the unit is set to a trip current of 19.1 amps (or whatever), that the output devices automatically handle 19 amps.

The trip current is set by either measuring the voltage drop across a transistor or with a voltage comparator or a current sensing transformer or or or, lots of other ways, where as the switching current depends solely on the output devices used and the heat sinks.

All I see in the manual are different trip settings up to 19.1 amps - one would hope that the output devices of the unit can switch also switch *at least* that current, but unless that is specified, there is no guaranty that this is the case.


Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, now I get "your" definition of "switching current" as applies to this device... 

Yes not specified and not guaranteed. It's at least 19 amps I would surmise, but have never tested over 11 amps 

The engineer would be an idiot if it was exactly 19 amps. Based on my experience with the device and and my friends who use them, I will not lie awake at night because I don't have the specification or guarantee. 

So far it has delivered what it promised. I have the optional heat sinks on mine, recommended for operation over 9 amps. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't understand why you think this is "my" definition of "switching current". 
There is some device(s) that reverses the track polarity, relay, MOSFET, transistor whatever...and it has a manufacturer specified current rating that it is designed for un der certain operating conditions some of which (no heat sink or different types of heat sinks) I mentioned earlier. Temperature is another one. 
These are all industry standard definitions - nothing that I invented. 

I just like to know what I'm buying, especially when it comes to electronic devices in Large Scale. 
And unless you have some specification from the manufacturer to point to, you don't have a hope getting anywhere with a complaint if the product doesn't perform as expected. 
Nothing to do with this particular device other than that there are no specifications listed at all.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, as I said, I'm not lying awake at night about this. It works, and works to my expectation, and two people I know well have had similar good experiences. 

You wanted "switching current" not to mean the "current switched", but the MAXIMUM current capability... so you _could _have been more precise in my opinion. 

But don't worry any more about it, go buy the Massoth for what must be at least twice the price. You will be helping the economy (of Germany I guess) . 

Buy what you want. (are you really buying one?) I have the DCC specialities one, it works. 

If you want nice specifications on all your G scale electronics before you buy them, then that's your personal decision. It will be a cold day in h**l before this is the standard in G scale. This is not rocket science, and we are not buying rockets. (at least I am not buying any rockets!) 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I think I'll pass without any more comments. 

But just to be clear - I'm not buying the Massoth unit or promoting that in any way. The only reason I mentioned it was because it will handle analog reverse loops which none of the others will. 
And that after all is the topic of this thread. 

Regards, Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And it was a great find, it's the only product I know of now that will do the job on analog DC. 

Thanks for finding it, it is appreciated, even after all the verbal jousting, ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I applaud all of you electronic geniuses. However, it seems that this topic is back to where we started, the simplest route to wiring a reverse loop.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Isn't that great? We managed to steer it back to the original topic, and find the answer to the original question. The answer is the Massoth autoreverser.... of course not the cheapest, but the simplest was requested. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

[No message]


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 06 Sep 2009 12:24 PM 
Posted By Madman on 06 Sep 2009 10:03 AM 
I applaud all of you electronic geniuses. However, it seems that this topic is back to where we started, the simplest route to wiring a reverse loop.











My way.

Can be made to switch any amount of current (relay dependant). Works with simple track power, Aristo Revolution, DCC, and ???. Can be implemented using internet surplus parts for ~$10. Sounds like the clear winner to me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Simple is buy one and hook it up to the track in my interpretation of the word. 

Since yours has to be made, and is not off the shelf, it may be technologically simple, but it's not simple to do for the average joe. It's definitely the cheapest, and what I would do if I needed one. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well Greg my friend I have to say that looking at your page, it's not quite as simple as plug and play--you need to add heat sinking to account for the higher amperage, which means ordering parts and finding ways to attach them. 

That being said, it still looks easier to me than Toddallin's analog solution, which I frankly would have a very hard time installing. That's my fault, not the solution's fault. 

Now that I have DCCi installed, and it seems to be working well (no time to give it a thorough test yet) I'll have to set up a wye or a loop eventually.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually I am not using the Massoth, which seems the only solution for DC. 

The PSR-AX is much less expensive DCC only, as are most autoreversers. I added the optional heat sinks in order to go over 10 amps, again something most people would never need. I also added the optional sounder. Most people don't need those options, and making them optional (although it takes 5 minutes to add them) keeps the cost down. Remember that these can be used for smaller scales, so few people in the smaller scales need the options and they are looking for lower prices. 

There's an entire series of this product, with optional switch controllers, etc. 

The Massoth, which is the only off the shelf solution for DC autoreversing, is just 4 wires, power in and power out to the reversing section, as most autoreversers. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I personally like the solution with a single latching relay best. 
I haven't tried it but I have seen that concept published in a few places and a friend of mine in Austria is using it. 
It requires a bit of wiring but is relatively elegant and inexpensive. 

Another possiblity that just came to mind: 
Use the LGB reverse loop set which requires no wiring at all and add a simple DPDT relay to automatically reverse polarity when the train is in the fixed polarity reverse loop section. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, wiring is wiring... you need wires to run to the track. In terms of applying a circuit, I think insulating the section of track and hooking 2 leads to it in any polarity you want is simplest. 

That's the beauty of an autoreverser, you supply it power, and it determines the polarity. No wiring other than connecting to the track, no polarities to be concerned about. 

That is simple. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg - 

I don't really understand your comments. Which part of my post are you commenting about? 

The latching relay one is just my personal preference considering number of components, cost and complexity of wiring. 

The LGB reverse loop set plus reversing relay is just another idea that came to me. 
You can of course wire the diodes yourself instead of using the LGB set. 

If you only use the LGB set then you don't have to do any wiring at all for the reverse loop modules but you need to reverse polarity manually when the train is in the reverse loop. 
Adding the relay to do that automatically still requires only two wires to the track plus the sensor to drive the relay but of course you have to cross wire the DPDT contacts. 

There are many different ways to accomplish the reverse loop with DC, with DCC there are only basically two, a module that triggers on a short circuit or a module that is triggered via some sort of track contacts (no short circuit). 

Knut


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By krs on 07 Sep 2009 08:56 AM 
I personally like the solution with a single latching relay best. 

Knut 

The latching relay you've shown is a propriatary unit. I have NEVER seen a 4pdt latching relay. Most are 2pdt. Also, you'll not find a latching relay capable of switching more than a few amps. The one you've shown is made for small scale stuff.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Knut, you said you prefer.... not that it was simpler... 

And in DCC, you can do anything like DC if you want... you can pretend it's DC and flip polaritiies, use relays, go completely nuts and make it really complicated. Therefore you have more options in DCC, they are just more of a pain, but they are options. 

The DCC autoreverser is 4 wires period and no extra hardware. Saying that adding an LGB relay is not wiring is not really fair. 

Anyway, this is starting to get boring... enough already... so I'm not coming back to this thread, the user has lots of options and there is a DCC autoreverser. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 07 Sep 2009 01:53 PM 
Posted By krs on 07 Sep 2009 08:56 AM 
I personally like the solution with a single latching relay best. 

Knut 

The latching relay you've shown is a propriatary unit. I have NEVER seen a 4pdt latching relay. Most are 2pdt. Also, you'll not find a latching relay capable of switching more than a few amps. The one you've shown is made for small scale stuff.


Not sure how you decided that this was a proprietary unit, but the diagram I put up was only to show that concept - I said so right in the post.
As to you NEVER having seen a 4PDT latching relay doesn't mean they don't exist.
I just took one quick look at Digikey for instance - they show them in 4PDT 5 amp and 10 amp versions and in a variety of coil voltages. 

The 5 amp version is almost $20.- and the minimum order quantity is 20, but Digitrax is only one supplier. There are many others.


Mouser has a 5 amp version where they have 62 in stock and the unit price is $18.60.

This unit http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/prod...eng_nc.pdf 


But one really needs to design the circuit first before looking for relays.
Might be cheaper in the end to use a normal relay with a Flip-flop at the front end.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By krs on 07 Sep 2009 07:15 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 07 Sep 2009 01:53 PM 
Posted By krs on 07 Sep 2009 08:56 AM 
I personally like the solution with a single latching relay best. 

Knut 

The latching relay you've shown is a propriatary unit. I have NEVER seen a 4pdt latching relay. Most are 2pdt. Also, you'll not find a latching relay capable of switching more than a few amps. The one you've shown is made for small scale stuff.


Not sure how you decided that this was a proprietary unit, but the diagram I put up was only to show that concept - I said so right in the post.
As to you NEVER having seen a 4PDT latching relay doesn't mean they don't exist.
I just took one quick look at Digikey for instance - they show them in 4PDT 5 amp and 10 amp versions and in a variety of coil voltages. 

The 5 amp version is almost $20.- and the minimum order quantity is 20, but Digitrax is only one supplier. There are many others.


Mouser has a 5 amp version where they have 62 in stock and the unit price is $18.60.

This unit http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/prod...eng_nc.pdf 


But one really needs to design the circuit first before looking for relays.
Might be cheaper in the end to use a normal relay with a Flip-flop at the front end. 




You could use 10 amp relays and build my schematic twice over for less than the cost of one of those relays alone. Besides, those don't even trigger as per your schematic.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Sep 2009 05:17 AM 
That being said, it still looks easier to me than Toddallin's analog solution, which I frankly would have a very hard time installing. That's my fault, not the solution's fault. 





Do you let your wife read the road map?









Would it be easier if I removed all the extra contacts, and color coded all of the wires?


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 Sep 2009 10:06 AM 
Isn't that great? We managed to steer it back to the original topic, and find the answer to the original question. The answer is the Massoth autoreverser.... of course not the cheapest, but the simplest was requested. 

Greg 

I think you guys are still doing it the hard way.. With all of the elecronics stuff to hook this up and that up and run this and change that..... 

My idea is just use four aligatoron two 6 foot wire for jumper, with nbr. 10 solid wire. Cut both rails on the tracks with a Hacksaw w/4800 tooth blade. ( that way it won't make any marks on the track..). Oh..cut track after the switch's going to the loop. Four rails would be fine....You know the part... where the train goes in loop.

Turn off power supply. Move jumper to other side of loop and rev. the jumpers. Rev.the powersupply. Turn on power supply that is hooked up on main line.

The auto part of it is getting off the chair to do it.. See no problem.. 

Still on Auto........ Go back and set back on chair with a cool one and turn on the throttle. Watch the train run to the other end and back to Auto again.. 

OR.. NEXT BEST WAY LIKE GREG SUGGESTED.........

Sorry couldn't resist on all of this tech support. laf.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Sep 2009 04:43 PM 

Anyway, this is starting to get boring... enough already... so I'm not coming back to this thread


I'm with you


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Noel,

Don't laff too fast: I fully intend to make a reversing loop and use a pair of standard 4PST switches when the time comes. Bridge the handles with a T-bar, as in the old days.









That is, unless they come up with an IC called, oh, the 'Switcheroonie', say. This device will sense the oncoming train and rearrange its inward circuitry so the train passes the junction seamlessly and continues on. It will have screw-on terminals, mount between the ties but no higher, cost under $1.99, conduct up to 20 amps and carry a lifetime free-replacement warranty. It will be impossible to miswire to the track, again due to self-correcting internal circuits. And of course, a pilot light.

For an extra $129.95 it will have an optional port to connect it to a computer so the owner can boast of 'computer control at an affordable price'. The device will flip colors on a schematic representation at the appropriate time via a pop-up.









Ol' Vulp


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Great Les.... See and it Auto to.. Have to get off the chair or lean over to the Toggle.. But auto and works.. ...laf..


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 07 Sep 2009 08:20 PM 
Posted By lownote on 07 Sep 2009 05:17 AM 
That being said, it still looks easier to me than Toddallin's analog solution, which I frankly would have a very hard time installing. That's my fault, not the solution's fault. 





Do you let your wife read the road map?









Would it be easier if I removed all the extra contacts, and color coded all of the wires?

No need to be a jerk, is there? I mean, did you see where I wrote it was my fault, not the fault of the solution? Does your wife read for you?


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I can see that this topic is going to die a very slow and painful death.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 08 Sep 2009 06:42 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 08 Sep 2009 06:35 PM 
Posted By lownote on 08 Sep 2009 05:03 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 07 Sep 2009 08:20 PM 
Posted By lownote on 07 Sep 2009 05:17 AM 
That being said, it still looks easier to me than Toddallin's analog solution, which I frankly would have a very hard time installing. That's my fault, not the solution's fault. 





Do you let your wife read the road map?









Would it be easier if I removed all the extra contacts, and color coded all of the wires?

No need to be a jerk, is there? I mean, did you see where I wrote it was my fault, not the fault of the solution? Does your wife read for you?





I'm sorry. Was not meant as an insult. Sorry you took it that way.

To me, wiring (and simple simple electronics) is just another part of the hobby. I learned by doing and this is actually a very cheap and easy project to tackle to get one's feet wet.

My offer to simplify it to make it easier to follow, if that would help, was in ernest. I can even point ypu to the parts to make it work and where to get them on the net.

Again. sorry you were insulted.


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Knut and Folks,

Thanks for posting the reverse loop wiring schematic below: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclas...hleife.jpg

What type of relays are these? Latching? Or are the reeds latching?

Thanks!

Take care, Joe.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

shown in the pic is the epl system from LGB. 
the 1700s are reedcontacts with one AC entrance and two directional (with diodes) outputs, that activate the motors of the switches(120X0). 
the addon-switches(12030) for the switchmotors change the current as needed.


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Kormsen, 

Thanks for clarifying that for me! I was trying to figure how that circuit would work with normal components. I thought perhaps the turnouts were spring-loaded, or had some sort of non-derailing feature. 

Take care, Joe.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

with a little thought you can make something, that works in the same way, using all DC components. (needs some more wire) 
in that case (using DC) you could as well replace reed contacts by simple weel contacts. 
it all depends on the type of switch-motors, you are using.


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks again for the help! I have wired regular relays to latch by using one pole of its contacts to keep the coil energized, then use another reed and relay to break the latching later, so that is my favorite technique. I have a book (somewhere) where it has a reverse loop circuit, but I don't know if it is all automated. Like a lot of things, once you get the problem solved, the solution seems easy. One thing I did learn, the hard, was to use a "snubber diode" across the relay DC coil to keep the reed's contacts from burning out.

Take care, Joe.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By Joe Rampolla on 18 Feb 2010 06:07 AM 
...to use a "snubber diode" across the relay DC coil to keep the reed's contacts from burning out.


do you mean things like those red buttons, that i solderd in paralell to the reeds?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, those are probably MOV's, use on AC, not as effective as diode on dc. 

Regards, Greg


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Kormsen and Greg,

Thanks for the replies! I am sorry that I don't know what those red buttons are. What I had happen was that a particular reed switch was sparking inside the glass tube, then burned out. (I am doing unusual things in O and S gauge.) I saw one time about what they called a "snubber" diode wired across the coil of a DC relay in "reverse bias" or against the normal direction of the current flow (just a regular 1N400X diode). (I am self-taught in electronics.) But I guess that a diode wired across the reed might protect the reed just as well? The diode across the relay's coil stopped the sparking in the reed. Now when I use AC with a reed and relay, I gather these MOV's are the solution? (I believe that my reeds are rated for the amount of current that they switch.) What are MOV's? 

Thanks!

Take care, Joe


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Folks, 

I just Googled MOVs -- Metal Oxide Varistors.

At the top of this page:
http://www.allelectronics.com/index..._query=mov
what would be a good choice for approximately 12 -14 VAC coming from an old Lionel ZW transformer with a 12 VAC relay?

Any help in figuring a good rating would be very much appreciated! (Or I'll do what I usually do, buy several of different ratings and just "trial and error" it.)








Thanks!

Take care, Joe.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

as my electric installations on the layout are all by trial & error or by copying, all i know about those red buttons: 
when i showed th original LGB reedswitch (the one in the background of the pic) to an electronic wizard, he told me, that they take part of the current, so that the reed itself gets not overloaded. 

during the years i found out, that a reed, that is switching just one turnoutmotor holds for years. while one, that has two or more hooked on, burns out after a couple of months.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 18 Feb 2010 02:16 PM 
during the years i found out, that a reed, that is switching just one turnoutmotor holds for years. while one, that has two or more hooked on, burns out after a couple of months. 


Which is why our reeds trip relays to do the heavy work.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 18 Feb 2010 02:28 PM 
Posted By kormsen on 18 Feb 2010 02:16 PM 
during the years i found out, that a reed, that is switching just one turnoutmotor holds for years. while one, that has two or more hooked on, burns out after a couple of months. 


Which is why our reeds trip relays to do the heavy work.


how and with what parts does one make or build that?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 18 Feb 2010 02:38 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 18 Feb 2010 02:28 PM 
Posted By kormsen on 18 Feb 2010 02:16 PM 
during the years i found out, that a reed, that is switching just one turnoutmotor holds for years. while one, that has two or more hooked on, burns out after a couple of months. 


Which is why our reeds trip relays to do the heavy work.


how and with what parts does one make or build that?



It varies with the application. What are you trying to accomplish so we can best assess how to do it? 

The included schematic shows how to wire two turnouts to throw in opposite directions simultaneously. If you want them to throw in the same direction, turn one of the diodes around so they face the same way. Note that the reed throws the relay that in turn throws the turnouts. The relay can actually be any voltage that is convenient and if you use 16-~24 volt ac relays you can use the ac source that you use for the turnouts.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

well, as i am not quite sure, that i understood ... 

option "A" is what i am using now. 
i think, you meant me to change to option "C". right?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 19 Feb 2010 04:06 AM 
well, as i am not quite sure, that i understood ... 

option "A" is what i am using now. 
i think, you meant me to change to option "C". right? 












Yes, option C.

Most reed switches are good to 100 milliamps with the good (big) ones maybe capable of as much as 1 amp. Two LGB turnout motors can easily draw 1 amp momentarily. But you can easily find relays with contacts rated for 5 amps or more. Try to find a relay that requires less than 100 mA to drive and the reed switch should live forever.

I actually use the reed switches to trip 555 chips that in turn trip the relays. This way I can set the turnouts to throw for ~1 second regardless of how quickly the train is traveling. I also use the other poles of the relay to "lock out" the opposing reed switch used in my leap frog. This way if a train parks over a reed switch, the other reed switch cannot be activated simultaneously feeding + & - 16 volts (32 volt potential) though the turnouts.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

thank you, toddalin! 
i think i got it now.


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## Joe Rampolla (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Folks,

What I do is described under "Contact Protection" on the following page:
http://www.ceejay.com/aler26.html
in diagram: http://www.ceejay.com/img_aler/aler27_0.gif , the last example annotated "diode." (The diode is positioned against the normal flow of DC across the reed.) The "varistor" example is what I will be trying next on my AC circuits once I figure out how to rate them.

Thanks for the varistor (MOV) info!

Take care, Joe.


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

*"Extra" Switch Driver ??*

I don't quite understand the "Extra" 12010 switch driver. I think I understand the wiring. I see that the 2 existing switches have 12010 drivers mechanically connected to the respective switches. Is the "Extra" Driver free-standing?

I'm not really smart enough to understand it, or maybe not?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When making more than one relay activate at the same time, be sure to use a Transformer with over 1 amp output rating. The LGB transformer for the EPL drive is rated at 500ma.
If running some lights then full power is not available for the EPL drive. I use the LGB booster for mine.


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

Does this refer to the illustration by krs? If so, I can't determine to which items your explanation refers. I already asked krs about it.


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

Anyone have a 2-loop fully automatic reverse loop (DC) using no reed switches and no magnets? How does it work and how is it wired up?


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

Yes, it does. krs told me that his illustration is about 10 years old. He indicated that the more modern layout would eliminate the need for reed switches and associated magnet on the locomotive. He said that some German company had come up with it and that he would let me know, once he finds it. He says it works. So I'm kind of waiting for him to get back with me. But, in the meantime, I'm (impatiently) looking for anybody else who might have come across this "modern" layout that krs is talking about.


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

By the way, do the reed switches, when actuated, change the relays in the 12030 (12070)? I'm trying to trace the logic of the circuit. I might be able to beat the time it takes those monkeys to write a Shakespeare sonnet. I'm in no hurry!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Biggest issue with the 12030 and 12070 is both switches inside do not reverse at the same time, therefore creating a short for a small period of time. Older supplies did not care, but the newer supplies will see this short and shut down!!
I would suggest using the more robust 12 volt car relays which have both contacts disengaging before engaging the opposite contact.
Also there are reversing modules that use mosfets and are more adept for reversing than mechanical relays. Mechanical devices change state in milliseconds, mosfets are in microseconds (a thousand times faster).


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

Older supplies? Newer supplies? I guess I'm confused.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The older supplies were just transformers feeding a diode bridge and then big Capacitors to filter out the ripple. These do not monitor current but do have fuses/breakers which are 'slow".



Newer supplies do not have a big A/C transformer, they use an electronic circuit to create the voltage at a constant value and s short can cause the output to shutdown via internal sensors. Electronic sensors are a thousand times faster than a fuse or circuit breaker.


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

krs said:


> Posted By eheading on 24 Aug 2009 07:17 AM
> I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!
> 
> 
> ...


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## slave_friedemann (Apr 4, 2019)

It's been a long time since I communicated with you, but you have been an invaluable help and I have been running the reverse loop for quite some time. Now it happened that the loop with the single switch motor stopped switching. Something suddenly stopped working. I don't know what. The other loop (with the two switch motors) works just fine. I can't believe that both diodes stopped working. And I don't get the 19V reading acrosss the 2 diodes on the effected side as I do the on the working side!? Any ideas??


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