# Track powered DCC questions



## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I am exploring what it would cost to add track powered DCC to my layout in addition to the Radio controlled DCC I already have and if it is even possible to run both at the same time. The reason I ask is because I came upon a nice trade for some small steam \ mining locos but I cant afford to convert them to RC battery power at this time. I figure the cheapest I could convert these to battery power would be about $225.00 ea without any sound (Airwire G3 plus batteries and wire\switches).

My current equipment is the NCE GWIRE controller and I have a Bridgewerks 10 amp controller.

The trains that need to be converted are all Bachmann: 

2 - Davenports
Railtruck
Saddle Tank Porter
4-4-0 Loco

What I think I know about DCC is that the track has a constant power voltage, but I don't understand how\or what is needed to get the commands from the GWIRE controller to the DCC contoller without a radio transmitter. What is the cheapest DCC controller I can use for the above mentioned locomotives (sound not required)? 

Thanks in advance

Dave S

P.S. My layout is a small dogbone layout 24 X 8 feet.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, you can run DCC power on the rails, and run normal track powered decoders, and still run your Airwire system from batteries and use your remote. 

"normal" DCC has a system with throttles (wired or wireless) that communicate with a "command station" and "booster"... the DCC commands (like speed, horn, bell) are "requested" by the throttles, and the "command station" turn your button presses into DCC commands. 

The "booster" gives them voltage and amperage and puts the signal on the rails. 

How the throttles communicate with the "command station" is normally proprietary. 

Your airwire system has the "command station" in the hand held throttle. It then transmits "DCC" over the air, and is picked up by your G3. 

The only rub in running these two different systems at the same time is if you want wireless throttles on both at the same time.. 

You have no choice with throttles on Airwire, they MUST transmit over the air and run 900 MHz. 

In the "normal" DCC system you can use a "wired" throttle connected to the "command station" by a wire, or there are other wireless options that will not conflict with the Airwire, but NOTE WELL: the Gwire and Airwire throttles will not control any other DCC system. 

Now, CVP DOES make wireless throttles, and a "normal" DCC system... perhaps you can use the same physical throttle on both, i.e. your existing Airwire setup and adding the command station and booster from CVP. I would call them to verify this. 

Another option is to use a different throttle for your "normal" DCC system and your Airwire throttles for your existing stuff... 

Several options and I hope this is not too confusing. 

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

OK, that makes sense, I guess my question now is how much cheaper are the decoders that use track power and what kind of investment am I looking at for dcc power suppy\cab controller system?

Does NCE sell this equipment? Most of my locos are an the small side as I only have 6.5' diam curves.


Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, you can get the best combination sound and motor decoders for $200 - $210 each. 

If you add up a G3 and a Phoenix you will find that you save money on each loco if you ignore the cost of batteries. 

NCE sells very good DCC systems (my favorite) and decoders, but motor only decoders. The combination decoders (motor and sound) are ESU, QSI, Zimo... 

The "clubs" that I am in use NCE at shows, and if we get interference on the wireless, we use 802.11 wireless and inexpensive tablets or our cell phones as throttles. Works great and all the software is free. 

Lots of options in decoders, DCC systems, etc. 

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I was looking at the systems offered by NCE, (PH Pro and PH-10) it seems they sell a 5 amp and 10 amp package. do you think the 5 amp package is enough to run the smaller locos? Also, I'm not really interested in adding sound to these locos unless I could do it for less than $70.00, I will investigate the brands you mention above. the decoders look good at around $60.00 each.


I wonder how the Door Hollow short-line controls their locos?

Thanks for your help Greg.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You won't find sound, at that price alone that is very good. You can find motor decoders easily for around $60. 

5 amp package will be enough for 2 to 3 locos at a time if you are not pulling really heavy loads. 

But as a comparison, how much did you pay for the G3 and batteries in each loco? Surely the street price of $140 (RLD Hobbies) and a $30 battery means you could spend $150 for a decoder and some sound and still save $20 per loco.... 

At $60 you save $110 per loco using DCC... will offset the cost of a DCC system really quickly, and then it's gravy from there on. 

There are some really inexpensive sound units... but you are not using sound (yet!).... look at the NCE D408 decoder... street price is about $55.... so this is $115 saved per loco... 

Hope this helps.. 

Greg 

p.s. Door Hollow folks use straight DC and a fair amount of twiddling to keep the locos from hitting each other.... I put a much slower loco on their layout and it really hung things up. 


Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Some of those small locos could use an HO decoder for around $20, check motor current. We have PH 10R for about $600


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, and some could use an HO sound decoder... good point Mike! 

I have used the Zimo HO sound decoders, 645 and similar on G scale locos, a Berlyn rail truck, and an Accucraft Casey Jr. with very good results.... They were under $100.. 

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

My head is spinning, ha ha

Let me digest what you guys wrote and do some research on my own and I am sure I will have more questions.

I really didn't want to pay $600.00 for a DCC system , I thought they were cheaper than that. Are the Digitrak systems any good?

Thanks


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The NCE PH 10 R is a very good system, rated at 10 Amps and radio control. You can get one for much less.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Look into Airwire's new "Converter" wireless receiver. It's essentially a G-3, but without the motor and lighting outputs. It's desigend simply as an on-board DCC booster to drive any generic DCC decoder. Battery power in, DCC out to the decoder. Current is limited to 1.5 amps, but as has been mentioned above, the locos you're looking at can all easily be run by a 1-amp capacity decoder. The covnerter and something like a Tsunami would set you back around $200/loco, which gives you sound and motor control. 

Can't help you too much on the track-powered DCC systems, except to say that I use a 3-amp MRC system (Prodigy Advance2) when I'm programming decoders and testing installations. Given the size of your railroad and these particular locos, it should be adequate for that. I usually see it in the $275 - $350 price range. Frankly if you were serious about track-powered DCC, I'd plunk the money down for NCE, Digitrax, etc. (you could start with their 5-amp systems, then expand with higher-powered boosters as you expand), but if you're like me and only use it for programming or running one or two locos at any given time, it's a consideration. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

While a nice idea, the reason I did not suggest this Kevin is that it is WAY outside the budget he mentions... 

The converter itself ADDS $100 to the total installation, where he was looking for $60 total... more than doubles his goal... so $160 for a D408, or $200 for an HO sound decoder like the Zimo. 

Also your suggestion stays with battery so the real per loco installation is probably like $190 and $230

Nope, you just cannot beat the economy and scalability of track powered DCC, the per loco price is much cheaper.

Greg


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Well, I did a lot of research last night and am thinking about getting this setup:

NCE PH-PRO - Power Pro - 5A (Power Pro Station \ Booster, Pro Cab Wired, UTP Panel)

P515 Power Supply

D13SR HO Decoder - 1.3 Amp (2 Amp peak) - Smaller Locomotives

D408SR G Decoder - 4 Amp (12 Amp peak) - Larger Locomotives


I'm going to have to sell some of my N scale stock to finance this.



Thanks to everyone for their help.

Dave S


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Not disagreeing with you, but let's take the decoders completely out of the equation, since with either a track-powered system or the Airwire "Converter" set-up, you can use whatever decoder you choose, at whichever price point you want. 

The cost we need to evaluate is the cost of the command station/booster itself. Without that, the decoder is worthless. Presuming Dave wants to remain wireless, then you're looking at an absolute minimum cost of $500 for even the simple MRC unit I'm using. Upgrade that to a system with some real guts to it, then you're looking at costs that could potentially be twice that depending on the system. So, do you spend $500 on a system that only has the power to run two, maybe three-if-they're-small locomotives at once, or do you spend $500 on a system that will allow you to run all 5 at the same time since each are drawing their own independent power source? Upgrade the track-powered system to a 5 or 10-amp system that can handle all 5 locos at once, and the cost balance tips even more in favor of the on-board solution _for these 5 specific locomotives._ 

Absolutely, once you pass that "break even" point on the cost of the command station and boosters, the cost per loco is cheaper. The choice then comes down to other factors like maintenance, track plan, rail materials, etc--all those other things that fuel the track vs. battery debate. But in terms of just the cost of the electronics, track power eventually gains the upper hand regardless. Presuming Dave is asking specifically about these 5 locos, and not looking for further expansion, then the wireless battery solutions are just as cost effective. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Only if you share one charger with all locos (the charger and associated connectors were left out of the analysis) 
Also left out was the pro rating of battery replacement over the years 

There are also lower cost dcc options. 

Been over this so many times 4 to 6 locos is the common crossover point


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## Michael W (Oct 10, 2012)

Not sure if that is an option for you but there is a diy dcc system by MERG, it has some good feedback, might be worth looking into as it is less money investment..... 
Kind regards Michael


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Only if you share one charger with all locos (the charger and associated connectors were left out of the analysis) 
Also left out was the pro rating of battery replacement over the years 
There's "hidden" costs on both sides of the equation. But there's no need to degrade this into the endless "track vs. battery" debate. It's clear from Dave's post that he's open to using both at the same time. He's already got battery power, so the extra costs associated with that he's already dealing with. He's got the chargers, batteries, and connectors already. If his railroad is also set up to run track power, then he's willing to spend money on rail clamps, feeders, all those things we use to make track power reliable. With him, it's not "either/or," but "how can I do both?" 

...There are also lower cost dcc options...
That's exactly what Dave is asking about, so let's see 'em! The cheapest wireless DCC system I've come across that would be remotely suitable for Dave's situation is the MRC Prodigy Advance2 with its wireless interface. But at 3 amps and 15 volts, it's applicability to large scale is limited. I'd love to learn of others. Digitrax, NCE, etc.--all the "big boys" are all well north of $500 that I've been able to see for wireless control. 

Been over this so many times 4 to 6 locos is the common crossover point
No argument from me, as is evidenced by my example above. Whether the advantages of the cost savings past that "crossover point" are worth it strikes to the heart of the "track vs. battery" debate. I've advocated in this thread that if you're serious about track-powered DCC, it's money well spent to go with a decent system. No matter which way you go (or if you go both), don't skimp. This hobby is expensive enough. No use throwing good money after bad.

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

(personal remarks and historical perspective deleted)

I'm done.. any questions the rest of you can email me. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dave, sorry I completely glossed over your post. I might suggest if you really like the wireless aspect of the Airwire stuff, you might try *this set-up* from NCE. It's the same 5A command station you mentioned, but with the wireless throttle/receiver. I cannot speak to HobbyLinc as a retailer, it's just what I found on a search. Really, given that the cheapest I've found the MRC wireless stuff is $444 (also from HobbyLinc), what you get with this compared to that is well worth the extra money. Shame the NCE G-wire controller uses a different wireles communication protocol, otherwise you'd have two wireless cabs. I do believe you _can_ plug in the G-wire cab and use it that way with the NCE command station, so that's at least something... Granted you can always add the wireless later, but you'll need to upgrade the transmitter as well, which will be more expensive in the long run. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh.... 

Kevin, did you bother to read the rest of the thread? 

I did not recommend the NCE wireless very strongly because it will conflict with the Airwire throttles. 

Sheesh.... 

The solution I gave him would allow using the SAME wireless controller for BOTH systems. 

Honestly..... 

Greg


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave S, 

I would go with the NCE 10 amp set. The 10 amp set can go to 22/24V direct track while the 5 amp set is limited to 18V. If you ever decide to upgrade to larger layout and high speed engines you are covered. When I run MTH DCS battery I just plug in my NCE and go. Reindeer Pass has great prices on NCE 10amp sets. 

Alan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, Greg, I did read the thread. That's why I first recommended the "Converter" on-board receivers. They're compatible with any generic DCC decoder _and_ the G-wire transmitter Dave already owns. For the locos Dave wants to convert, it seemed a logical means to his end. The CVP stuff you made reference to accomplishes the same goal in a track-power-based system for a similar price. (Actually, you stated you were unsure as to whether Dave's current throttle would work with CVP's traditional stuff, suggesting he call to verify. It is, by the way, at least to the extent that the G-wire throttle is compatible with any of Airwire's receivers.) I first recommended the MRC stuff because it had the advantage of being the least expensive option. Since Dave later said he was going with the NCE stuff, I recommended going with the wireless system as it's much cheaper to do that at the outset than to come back and buy the components later. 

In terms of conflict between the G-wire throttle/Airwire combo running at the same time as a ProCab/NCE wireless, I am well aware they are not compatible with each other (i.e., the wireless ProCab cannot control the Airwire and vice versa) but I am unaware of conflicts that prevent them from working _at all_ when used in the same area. (i.e, if I turn on my G-wire transmitter while you're running your Pro-Cab wireless system, everything goes haywire.) I would love to learn of your experiences in that regard, as it runs contrary to my own. I'd like to try to figure out what the differences might be. I was at a show not long ago ago where I had my Airwire on-board stuff, another club was using NCE's wireless, and a third was also using Airwire's track-based system. None of us had any conflicts, and we were all within 100' of each other. Airwire lets you select one of up to 16 unique channels within the 900 mHz spectrum, ranging from 903.37 to 926.12 mHz. The NCE manual references specifically 916.5 mHz as the broadcast frequency for their transmitter/receiver. The closest Airwire frequency to that would be 916.87 mHz, but there are 15 others to choose from if that creates an operational problem for the user. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I erased my original reply, I cannot continue on this thread without becoming personal.

I will state that the information presented by Kevin is false and incorrect.

I won't keep participating in this BS.

All: beware of false information based on inexperience or "made up" facts.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you are--as always--welcome to your own opinions of the facts as presented. That you feel I am wrong is nothing remotely new. The areas where you and I have differing experiences and opinions is about as all-encompassing as one can get in large scale railroading. Yet despite our disagreements and differing opinions, we're both able to build and operate problem-free railroads. Funny, that... 

Later, 

K


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Kevin, I looked on the Airwire site for these "Converter" boards you are talking about and all I see is the G3 and drop ins. Do you have a part number I can re search? Or maybe a direct link? 

To everyone else, I am still figuring out what to do, The main reason I went battery power is because I didn't want to deal with cleaning the track all the time. If I do get the DCC system I will go wireless mainly to keep costs down and the layout I am planning is rather small, so I don't really need wireless. Plus this will be for my smaller and oddball locomotives, my main locomotives are going to be battery power soon. 


Thanks 

Dave S


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dave, it's not on their web site, but is in their pdf catalog. Try this: *Link to pdf on Airwire "Convertr"* 

I thought I read it was shipping a while back, but the lack of a product manual on the web site raises that into question. They're usually very good about providing documentation just before the product is released. I figured I'd worry about getting one when I had need for it, which I don't as yet, so I haven't looked much further into it. 

BTW, according to the flier, it will run on 11.1 volts with no problem, so even better in terms of trying to fit batteries into small locos. All the locos you mention should run amply fast on that voltage. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, if you had more experience, i.e. basing your decision that there is no conflict on only one experiment, as opposed to being at many locations where several RF systems were in use over many years, you would have a different conclusion. 

Or if you understood more about how the basic systems worked, and the fact that frequencies overlap, and are also rarely well controlled and that there are distortion components that go beyond the center frequency, you would also have a different conclusion. 

Or if you were an RF engineer, or designed RF systems or had 20 RF engineers working for you. 

I have such experience, but I've NEVER had to keep telling the same person the complete technical details every time. There's a lot more to this than you tried it once and it worked. 

This is why we get in conflict over things, it is indeed a recurring situation, but the fundamentals always seem the same... 

Greg 

p.s. is there a "rebuttal timeout limit" on this forum?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I remain open to an explanation of why you say the two systems do not work for you side by side. For me? My "success" comes in a typical train show dealer hall environment with clubs having displays side by side, typically around 40' apart from each other (more than enough to where signals will overlap.) I frequently wander around the nearby displays while my train is running since I am wireless and can control it from a distance. (probably 60 - 90' range is typical.) Club "A" uses NCE wireless. Club "B" has the Airwire CVP base station. I've got my Airwire controller with G-2 or QSI in the tender. I'm lazy and keep my channel set to 0 (factory default, 921.37mHz) I do not know what the other Airwire-controlled group was using, but either it wasn't zero, or they don't have locos with 2 or 3 as an address. I've never asked. (Why would I?) I've run in this or similar environments with Airwire for the better part of 6 years, multiple times per year with consistently successful results. 

Three questions for you: 

1) Given this consistent, demonstrated success, what is it about that environment that leads you to the conclusion that it is a fluke? Why is it that you feel my personal experience is not representative of the whole? 

2) What specifically were the environments where you personally experienced difficulties in running these two systems side by side, and what were those difficulties? 

3) How would you explain the differences between our results? 

Contrary to what you may believe, the intent of my questions isn't to "prove you wrong," but to try to understand why we have different outcomes from similar situations. Clearly you have reason to make your claim, and I have reason to make mine. Since neither of us can be "wrong" because our experiences are what they are, the logical course of action must be to then determine the contributing factors which sway the results one way or the other. 

I look forward to your reply. 

Later, 

K


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I just wanted to update the thread and let everyone know that the deal with the 5 Locomotives fell thru so I wont be getting track DCC anytime soon. I am now investigating cheap sound cards and looking for a new or used Bachmann Spectrum SaddleTank Porter.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

" consistent, demonstrated success" ?? 

How many train shows were these? An integer number please. 

You were a spectator right? Not a user? 

This success applies to the OP where the SAME person wants to hold BOTH controllers? And his hands are not 40' apart? 

No success, no consistency, and no one here on this forum with a 40' wingspan. 

Anyone out here have two 20 foot arms and can see each handheld 20 feet away? 

One piece of advice if you really want to learn something: the electromagnetic field drops off with the cube of the distance. 

If this does not tell you that your data has nothing to do with one person using 2 remotes, then there is no possibility of discussing reality on this topic. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Everything's spelled out above, Greg. How could I argue the system works for me if I'm _not_ actually an operator? How many train shows? I stated that as well. Technically I stated the frequency per year and the number of years, but I figured you could do the math. But just to humor you, about 24 or so shows over the past 6 years. I don't bring my Airwire-equipped locos every time, but every time I have (maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the time) I've never had any issues operating. I can't imagine I'm just "lucky" each and every time. 

If this does not tell you that your data has nothing to do with one person using 2 remotes, then there is no possibility of discussing reality on this topic. 

Now, we're getting somewhere! 

My data is based on multiple operators in the same general theater of operation as you'd find at a club display or operating session, (i.e, multiple people anywhere from 5' to 40' away or so) _not_ one individual holding two transmitters. I never got that you were talking about such a strict set of circumstances when you made your claim. That's why I like to ask for specifics, so we can find out why we have differing results. I think we're onto something. 

Probably the closest I've had my (Airwire/G-wire) throttle to someone else's (NCE) throttle is maybe 4' or so; them standing behind their modular display controling their loco, me standing in front of it, chatting with them while running my locomotive on the adjacent display. (I enjoy "working the crowd" at these events, and since I'm wireless, it allows me to do so with a great deal of mobility.) I don't know how they have their controls set up behind the curtain, but I'd bet at one point or another, I was closer to their receiver than they were. 

So, yeah. There's a distinct possibility we're talking about two different things. I've never physcially held both transmitters at the same time. (I've had no need to.) So if that's the specific circumstances under which you've noticed problems, I have no reason to doubt you. But in terms of the two systems operating together in a club setting, my experience demonstrates to me that there's no trouble. 

I'd like to know more about what your experiences were with running the two transmitters side by side. What were the difficulties you experiened? If I can have success running the two systems while standing with my Airwire/G-wire transmitter in the same general area as someone with an NCE transmitter (5' separation or more), how close is "close enough for trouble," and what is the nature of that trouble? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not only are we talking about two different things, I was talking about answering the OP's question, he wants to know if they can coexist... 

No one asked anyone if you could use two different systems separated by large distances. 

I worked hard to come up with a pretty comprehensive answer to the OP's question, and then you suggest something unworkable for HIM..... 

sigh... someone's focus is not on the topic or helping the person... 

I've got so much more experience than you in this area, I'm sorry but I'll take my experience over yours... and I'll not defend my experience in this hostile environment.. nor go into detailed explanations to you which would be wasted.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I just wanted to post a thought about the Airwire 900 "The Converter" board which has a price of $99 or $105 with an antenna. I don't quite understand this product, if it was $50, it would make sense, but since it cost $100, plus you need a $20 DCC decoder, why not just buy the Airwire G3 for $130.00? 

Am I missing something here? 

Dave S


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, 5 feet apart is hardly what I'd consider a "large distance," but if you want to define "coexist" as meaning one person holding two transmitters, I'm good with that, and I'm good with your position saying they don't work together under that specific definition. It'd be nice for you to expand on the nature of those operational difficulties for the benefit of the forum, but if I'm so inclined next time I have the ability to do so, I'll play around a bit for myself. 

If you broaden the definition of "coexist" to mean work successfully in a typical operating session environment where multiple operators have their own individual transmitters usually around 5' to 20' apart from each other depending on the nature of the railroad, then by that definition and my experience, the answer is "yes." You can accept it or not. For the benefit of those following this thread (if they haven't written _both_ of us off as raving lunatics) they can take these two examples of situations where things do and do not apparently work, and apply it to their own needs. 

Dave, for "typical" large scale installations (north of 1.5 amps) then the G-3 is the way to go. With the Converter--when used in low-current-draw locomotives--the cost may be the similar, but the board is much smaller, the motor (or motor/sound) decoder will also be smaller, and it works on lower voltages, meaning you can get away with an 11-volt pack instead of a 14 volt one. That makes a big difference when trying to cram things in a small locomotive. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Make it go away mommy!










Kevin, as usual you are completely right again... please take this as surrender! I bow to the superior intelligence!

Of course I take it as one person holding 2 transmitters, or a poor guy in his back yard with a friend running and the guy walks next to him. A real, typical situation since the OP asked for himself, not for a meeting hall.

Again I answered the question in the context it was asked in, and also in a manner that would give reliable operation.

Once again, you can broaden the term coexist to mean the systems separated by 10 light years, then virtually everything coexists with everything else.


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