# Track buckling



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

332 brass. First couple of days with clamps replacing rail joiners on a 10' diameter curve. It's not even hot yet, but the track buckled overnight! Both horizontally (about 1/2"), and vertically (about 3"). I have the track bolted down to decking every 4 to 5 feet. What the heck happened? What did I do wrong? How do I prevent this from happening again? Should I take the clamps off and put the joiners back on? No problem buckling with the joiners. Help!
Ken S.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Morning Ken, sounds like you should become a weather man.. 

Part of building layouts is becoming aware of the environment around us! 

reading the news today, that BIG cold front that came thru CA & AZ yesterday changed life fer a day or two..it is still here today, moist and damp out even - surprised even me! 

it is colder, but not lots for us, My ? is did you see a large drop in temps up north? possibly the decking your using ''shrunk'' and caused the rail to bulge up... 

Problems come from differential changes in the properties of materials we use to build with, not just the obvious summer high temps... materials all do not expand / contract at the same rates... 

have a cup of coffee, let it warm up this am, and ponder life a bit more...maybe the dust will blow away... yah right! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

instead of bolting the track down solid to the sub-bed, leave those a little loose so the track can "breathe". The rail joiners allowed the track to expand and shrink with temperature changes, clamps don't, so you need to allow for it in other ways. 

Real railroads get "sun kinks" too when the track can't move enough to relieve the thermal expansion.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I did leave the bolts a bit loose, so the track could move under it. Maybe not loose enough? I'm now loosening those little screws that hold the ties to the rails in hopes that it will help. I'm also going to remove a couple of the bolts completely for a few days while the temps rise into the 90's this coming weekend. The temp swings this past month were greater than the last couple of days, so, the only difference was the clamps. Will leaving a gap in the rails where the clamps are make any difference? It seems to me that it wouldn't matter, as the clamps would prevent the gaps from opening or closing anyway. Yes? 
Ken S.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken, remove most of your bolts and let the track move around with temperature. The track will not move very much. If you have a grade, tack the track in one place to keep it from slipping down hill. I have a temporary layout on my patio here in Sun City. It just sits on the tile floor. It is about 12' x30'. It stays in place. I'm using rail clamps on the outside rail gaps and joiners in the inside. I'm a strong believer in letting gravity do the work by letting the track float on what ever surface it is sitting. Only tack it down after you have a problem. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'd unbolt that track from the roadbed. 

What you see is the result of change between 2 fixed points. 

I only use clamps where I have to, I much prefer the screw down rail joiners. Sure those tiny screws can be a pain, but using the web of the rail makes a smooth railhead path a lot easier to achieve. 
I'm in S AZ, my temps range from -4 to 114 degrees, I use Aristo SS. I see lateral movement all the time, but the track stays flat by it's own weight. 

Half my track floats in ballast and the other half sits plain on wooden planks raised a foot or so. I don't bother removing the screws that hold the rails to the ties. I figure the strength of the steel will force the plastic to conform and so far it has. 
Due to illness, the plain elevated track was left alone. Many a day was merely pondering, my 2 fav pondering spots have sightlines down my longest tangents, never saw a kink. My feet are harder on track than nature. I don't leave gaps nor do I have any expansion devices. 
Unlike real RRs, our track is stronger than ballast and will grow sideway, as a unit, if allowed. 
For the track in ballast, half of a return loop, is in a cut and held fairly ridgid, the other side moves laterally on the bridges. Most of my expansion is resolved by the curves that bulge a tad or so it seeems. 

I'd venture that your overnight buckling was caused by your roadbed shrinking underneath the track. Is it elevated? Have cold winds? Bobs yer Uncle. Ya we like to work when it's warm...... 

John


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, T-wrecker. The half of the layout that floats on ballast was not affected, even with the new clamps. The other half was. Its track sits on fake wood decking which is glued to cement blocks which sit on gravel which sits on dirt. I bet you are right that the buckling was caused by the decking shrinking. How track could buckle when the temps fell really puzzled me. Shrinkage of decking does explain it. I will remove more bolts today before I destroy more track. Thanks to all you guys for your input. 
Ken S.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By avlisk on 09 Apr 2013 10:12 AM 
I did leave the bolts a bit loose, so the track could move under it. Maybe not loose enough? I'm now loosening those little screws that hold the ties to the rails in hopes that it will help. I'm also going to remove a couple of the bolts completely for a few days while the temps rise into the 90's this coming weekend. The temp swings this past month were greater than the last couple of days, so, the only difference was the clamps. Will leaving a gap in the rails where the clamps are make any difference? It seems to me that it wouldn't matter, as the clamps would prevent the gaps from opening or closing anyway. Yes? 
Ken S. Ken,

You definitely need gaps at each rail joint. Also the rail needs to slide in the clamp itself. You also say that you have fastened the track to the trek board. Don not tighten these bolts. I don't know how the ties are fastened. Are you drilling through the ties and then installing the bolt? In these areas you need to let the tie slide around the bolt. It definitely needs to move freely LATERALLY and ALONG the the length of the track. Are you using trackpower or battery? If trackpower, then you really need them for conductivity. This is why the old-timers in this hobby used jumper wires between joints with a loop of wire to allow for expansion and contraction AND still have a good connection. Good luck with this problem.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Off the top of my head, my curves can move as much as 3/8" laterally from a 40 degree overcast day and a 90 degree sunny one.........


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Interesting Ken, need to take a picture and post it so we can get a better feel for the various connections you have installed. I've got one layout in a patio area (Sun City, Arizona) and one outside in a large backyard in Flagstaff, Arizona. Obviously I get to play with different weather scenarios. I do keep the one in Sun City "sun" covered to prevent the UV from attacking the ties. I use deck screws in "over sized" holes in the individual ties to hold the track to a wooden raised bed covered with roofing shingle material. The track is attached about every 24". Had a couple of buckles when first installed, but I have adjust the screws (in or out) depending upon the vertical buckling. So far, so good. 

I'm in the process of building and "weaatherizing" the one in Flagstaff. Using some test ladder back sections to get a feel for the best method. Got a lot of ideas from a couple of other layout owners that have had their outdoor layouts in place for several years. We had temperatures of 69-70 degrees on Saturday and today's high is supposed to be 43...so it moves a lot in the spring time. Rain and snow also affects the exterior boards...not sure what might be moving more. Good luck. Ed


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I have to politely disagree with Gary. 
I think that leaving loose ends in plain joiners leads to kinks. I use the scew type. 
I see my rail as I beam girders, the better I can connect them the longer my ridgid beam becomes. Just like my belly, I want the whole thing to grow and shrink as a unit ... smooth ... not here and there like cellulite! Oh gross! (I hope that don't compromise my civility!). 
The other noted probmatic result of loose joiners is track migration where it contracts to one end instead of the middle, too soon that gap grows and starts beating the plating on your wheels.... The big boys don't leave gaps and they suffer worse effects from expansion than we modelers do. 

The old layout was a tri-oval, one corner was a curved trestle with bridges on either end. Rail, tight no gaps, would move laterally on curved part of the trestle. I built it wider and used 3 stringers to support the track out to both extremes. This is where I opted for the 'toy train' look of track on a bridge and trestle instead of spiking the rail to longer bridge ties (the finescale look requires a controlled environment IMHO). Less over engineered than most. I never experienced a kink. 
I'm a desert rat, I have to handle the extremes. Simplicity works. 

John


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Avlisk, 

If you have more patience than I have (I can never get the search feature to work) search my handle (armorsmith) and the subject thermal expansion. I did a fairly detailed explanation of thermal expansion in model rail raod track, including some representative calculations. I think you will be surprised at how much your track can and WILL move around. 

Bob c.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can't tell you how controversial this issue can become, since different people have different methods. 

I've read every post about this on 4 forums... 

Typical progress on a newbie's layout: 

1. lay down track, looks fine 
2. screw it in place to keep from shifting 
3. track kinks 
4. try more screws 
5. track kinks 
6. try different joiners 
7. track kinks 
8. remove screws or other fixings of track to ties 
9. track kinks (rail never expands as same rate as ties and as same rate as the board or ground underneath. 

Now the path diverges: 

put the screws back in the tie to rail, float the track in ballast like the real guys, learn to lay track when it is warm so you have room for expansion 
(alternative, fix the track to roadbed like JJ does but give the attachment points "give" to handle the expansion and contraction) 

or 

Keep trying to bolt it down more, let rails slide, and generally fight the laws of physics... 


Greg 
try to bolt it down


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I used lag bolts through large washers and screwed them between ties, about every 4 to 5 feet along the curve. In the initial installation, I left them loose enough that the track could move under the washers in all directions, and this worked with the track using only rail joiners. This obviously wasn't good enough with clamps. I've now removed 4 of the 5 bolts on the curve, so that the track is now mostly floating. There is a Split Jaw (or Aristo, I forget which) Expando-track on one side, leading into the curve, but all the rails on that end of the layout are now clamped instead of rail-joinered as of this morning. I expect the floating will work, as the other end of the dogbone layout, which is floating on ballast, has experienced temps from 36F to 90F so far this year, and hasn't had any problems. . .an experience which I think I should be paying attention to. 
Ken S.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Being as I can't get the search to work here, I am providing a link where I have posted information on similar questions. 

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/13242/search/view/post_id/127329 

If you need additional information beyond what is there, send me an email and we can go forward from there. 

Bob C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bob, that's a good thread, although I only see one post from you about the rate of thermal expansion of rail, and giving the good advice of leaving a credit card thickness between rail ends when installing. 

You can search MLS by doing it in google and restricting the search to mylargescale.com only.... I find it works much better than the "internal" search. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, if the ends are tightly fixed either by clamps or joiner screws, what does that gap do? Clickety clack? 

I know great minds have thought this out, but I've not witnessed any kinks or cold gaps.... I' m in full AZ sun all day long. 

I can't see doing all that 'stuff' without a reason. I ran 5 years on track power and all I ever did was screw the joiners together. 

I guess I'll wait for a problem and then fix it, but for now it ain't broken. 

Happy Rails 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Since the mid 80s I have had three different garden railroads. I have never had any problems with heat kinks or gaps in cold weather. The first was in Lakewood, Co, (1985-1993). It was a mix of shade and full sun. The track was free floating on ballast. This was before rail clamps and Aristo joiners with screws. I used two different systems using screws through the LGB joiners and rail to secure the joints. The second RR is in Va (1994- pres.). It is in almost 100% shade. It equilabrates with the ambient temperature. This track is also free floating. The rails are all joined. In this case, in addition to the screws through the stock joiners, left over from Colorado, I have added rail clamps to new tracks and switches which were needed to increase the radius of all the curves. The third is my temporary layout here in Arizona, described earlier in this thread. All of these have been free floating and I have never had any buckling problems. The one exception to free floating was a single anchor point on the incline of my cog RR that was part in the Colorado layout. I thought that the cog engine might over time pull the cog track down hill. As has been stated several times, use anchors after a problem arises and use them sparingly. Remember our track and trains are heavy. Gravity will help keep the track in place. In the smaller scales it is common to tack the track down, that mind set seems to carry over into large scale. Things you did in HO, N etc. do not always translate into the backyard and scale we enjoy. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, short answer, joiner screws, and even clamps cannot overcome the forces of expansion and contraction. It's funny how following the procedures the prototypes use actually works in our scale. 

The idea is that the ballast pretty much locks the ties in place (yes I know they move, but bear with me). 

The idea is to spread the expansion and contraction along the rail, not let it concentrate in any one area (kink). 

But things will move no matter what. Unless you lay your rail at the absolute hottest time (meaning that the rails are likewise as hot as they will ever get) you should leave a gap. 

I don't know many people that leave their rails out in the sun to get them hot and then lay the track on the hottest day of the year. 

So, the common wisdom is to leave a gap. 

I have tried a number of rail clamps and none of them could stop ALL motion. You will also read of people bending or breaking the screws on Hillmans and Split Jaws... 

The Aristo/USAT style with the slot at one end is clearly never going to keep the ends together. 

So, that's my short answer. 

(now there's nothing wrong with these gaps in my opinion) 

Regards, Greg


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

@Greg - Thanks for the tip, I will have to try that in the future. 

@John and Chuck - My recommendations are given that the tie strips are secured to a sub road bed, and that the standard joiners are used. Both Aristo and USA have slots in one end of the joiner, and I don't care what you use to tighten the small whatever mm screw with, it will slide with temperature change. For those using hard clamps, free floating is the ONLY way to go unless your line is only a simple circle up to about 10' diameter. Free floating is what the real rail roads do, and if the extremes are reached, even they have issues with expansion. Trying to secure everything to the extreme will only result in something breaking, the weak link being the tie strips will fail, either the point at which the tie is restrained to the sub road bed or the 'spikes' will fail holding the rail in the tie strip. 

When you combine the track differential expansion with the differential of the sub road bed (assuming as an example a PVC ladder system) things can get interesting. I spent 15 years working in the Air Pollution Control industry engineering Electrostatic Precipitators (big smoke eaters you might have seen in restaurants in years past) and bag houses (super sized vacuum cleaners), running at temperatures up to continuous 500 degrees F. I have seen steel plate duct work tear itself apart from differential expansion. Believe me when I tell you that 'expansion will go somewhere'! 

To repeat a post somewhere (here or the other site) I have infra red thermometer read temperatures on the rail of 145 degrees plus. Most folks forget that track in the sun will also pick up heat from the solar radiation of the sun, and that can be significant. 

Bob C.


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

OK, I get it, everything moves....I think that what most of us try to do is limit the "damage" or control the movement so it doesn't cause problems...like derailments. My personal observation has been that most movement occurs in some isolated portions of the layout and the rest of it (either because of shading, the right amount of gapping, firmness of the track bed, etc.) stays pretty much like you built it to begin with. So I concentrate my efforts to those few areas that have a problem and let the rest do its thing. Hope poor Ken has been able to fix the area of his layout that is giving him fits.... Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a friend in Phoenix that used to send us pictures of rail head temps, got some at 160 degrees... he HAD to have the split jaw expansion tracks on his 60 foot straights... (and no plastic wheels too!) 

Greg


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

You can't secure the ties to the roadbed and also screw the rail to the ties. Something has to be able to move when temps change. The prototype uses tie plates and the rail is able to move on the ties when it expands and contracts. You can used the clamps if you don't tighten them completely so the rail can move. If you are using the Aristo rail that is screwed to the ties then you have to let the complete track structure move which case you can clamp or screw the joints together which is why a lot of modelers let their track 'float'. I don't use track power so I use rail joiners most of the time and I use Llagas creek track so the rail is able to move on the ties. I secure my ties to the roadbed structure which is the PVC stuff that split jaw sells. If you use track power then you have a diff problem. I do use the clamps on broad curves where there is a joint in the middle of the curve. It gets hot here in Houston in the summer and the ground also expands and shrinks so I do periodically have to adjust the track to avoid kinks by cutting out a piece or if the ground moves I sometimes have to insert a plug. One thing I don't see mentioned is if you are using joiners and having difficulty with electrical continuity then solder a jumper wire across the joint. This works in any gauge.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 10 Apr 2013 02:42 PM 
One thing I don't see mentioned is if you are using joiners and having difficulty with electrical continuity then solder a jumper wire across the joint. This works in any gauge. 

"This is why the old-timers in this hobby used jumper wires between joints with a loop of wire to allow for expansion and contraction AND still have a good connection."

BINGO!! This is part of my quote from the eighth post waaaay back. Must have been missed, I guess.







Too many agendas I believe. BOTH battery AND trackpower trying to avoid the inevitable confrontation. I'm very sure someone will "pop" in here and say nothing was ever mentioned in the original post about trackpower vs. battery power. But connections between rails can be a contributing factor here to buckling. You HAVE to have good connections to have conductivity through rail. If you don't have some movement for contraction and expansion, track WILL buckle. I NEVER had a buckling problem in my first layout, floating on gravel. I always had gaps between joints. But I never wanted to go to the trouble to solder jumpers between joints. AND eventually I had terrible conductivity and my interest in garden railroading waned and I left the hobby. What brought me back? Wireless and battery. NOT an agenda, just what motivated ME. Mileage may vary. JMHO.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The rail join is the weak link in track power. That is why I used two different screw techniques to hold my track together. I never had any conductivity problems using the screws. Likewise with rail clamps. I've been using track power for almost thirty years. It meets my needs and I like it. I realize that there are members of this forum who don't like it and don't use it. That's fine. If we all did the same thing it would be very boring and we wouldn't need MY LAGRE SCALE. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ignorance is bliss. I didn't know any better and my way worked. I am mechanically inclined and know how to work an Allen wrench. Knew enough to get ball ended Allens to run them in and then the short leg to torq down tight. Brand new track, joiners and screws, assembled dry. 20' x 30' tri-oval. One power feed, 20 ga. wire and Aristo's Orange TE radio controlled track power. Ran fine several years until I wore out the TE, then used the Ultima through same leads for a couple more years. 
Yes there are slots, they don't cause slippage, they allow for assembly, get it started and then pull the track together, eyeball alignment and tighten. Well that's the way I used them. No there isn't seperation. I do see where I forget them ... 

I'm not wishing to be argementative, but the gap would only cover the metal from the screw to the close end of the rail. How much will 3/16" rail expand? How much will 3/16" of rail joiner expand? Why don't they just stay together there? 

I learned here to look for that seperation, but honestly no kinks and no gaps. 

I'm sorry you aren't as lucky as me then. 

John


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The links are not in order; some highlights from the iGS web site. This is for ideas not a suggestion to buy.


interlink Garden Rail System; Fleximount

Ballast Anchor

NEW iGRS Ballast Bolster

Development Joining Plate

Typical Installations

July 2012


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice idea, about $9.21 each in quantities of 50 not counting shipping and duty. 

Built right thought, SS plate, SS screws keeping the mount down to the plate so ballast does not work in. 

hard to build on your own though. 

Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Apr 2013 03:46 PM 
Nice idea, about $9.21 each in quantities of 50 not counting shipping and duty. 

Built right thought, SS plate, SS screws keeping the mount down to the plate so ballast does not work in. 

hard to build on your own though. 

Greg 

Greg, Sorry, thought you would get more out of it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, "nice idea", "built right"... did not elaborate, but I'm sure it works pretty well... basically guaranteeing that expansion is "shared" by all the mount points. 

Your layout would have the track in the same place for years. But if you free-float your track, it might migrate a bit over the years, but pretty much act the same for a lot less money. 

One thing that seems pretty universal is that with the high cost of track, adding these would be prohibitive for most people. It's also a lot more work, since your roadbed needs to have some objects inside it to secure these to. 

I appreciated reading it, but I think very few people would spend the money for it in the current financial climate. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting but over time it will most likely move also. All track moves no matter how it's secured. If one does his ground lay out corecctley and does as the 1 to1 boys do with ballast. You basically have the same system as what is was mentioned here. As I have said many times and which folks seem to forget is that the screws that hold the rail to the ties act like rail anchors much like for the real RR. Once track is laid fully surfaced lined and ballasted the track is now secure but will in extreme temps move some. As mentioned add Split Jaw expansion joints and all is well. My RR has been down for over 10 years and laid as stated here. Later RJD


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Chris, 

After reviewing the video of the installation on grade, I see no advantage over floating in ballast alone. There does appear to be an advantage for the live steam folks or anyone not wishing to have the layout on grade, but as for expansion it appears to be a lot of cash outlay and effort for not that much to be gained that can't be handled in another fashion. 

Neat system tho. 

Bob C.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I made a mistake when I wrote "...not suggesting anyone buy the stuff"









I can't imagine what would have been the reaction if I'd written "..don't buy this stuff."











I did forget some here are ground huggers.







I'm embarrest.










I'm elevated in perspective of the live steam persuasion.














In the future I'll avoid exposing others to what stimulates me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

jeeze!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Apr 2013 09:21 PM 
jeeze! 
Greg;
That was exactly[/i] my reaction.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Chris, I don't understand your reaction just because nobody embraced this system.... personally I wouldn't trust any system that relies on the ties to maintain rail alignment. I dismissed the system at that point, not you. 

Why take it personal? 

John


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

You're right. I had a bad day. My air compress failed in the middle of a framing job. Another delay to the kitchen and my wife was due home in an hour.











At least he tried to kick you guys around and not me


Don't worry, I'll take care of him next time...


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