# Power source options for new outdoor layout



## buckitrain (Feb 18, 2009)

I was hoping to get some opinions/reviews/hints of power sources for an outdoor layout that I intend to construct this spring. At this point, I am going to be powering the layout through the track (Aristo stainless-steel). From what I’ve read, it seems that stainless-steel track, although less conductive and much money, will withstand being outdoors better so than brass. I plan to invest in track clamps, Split-Jaw, to assist with maintaining a good connection of the rail. In terms of power sources, I was specifically looking at either the Bridgewerks Mag-15 or the Aristo 15 Amp power source. My intent is to go with the Aristo Train Revolution as my controller for the layout. Has anyone had good results using the Bridgewerks power sources with the new Train Revolution??? I spoke with Bridgewerks and they informed me that the MAg-15 puts out 27V, slightly higher than what the Train Revolution can handle. Has anyone had any issues using the Revolution with the Bridgewerks power sources??? I know that the Bridgewerks products are more expensive but I’ve heard that they put out “clean DC power” and are construction very well. Would it be worth investing a little more in the Bridgewerks power source or is going with the Aristo 15Amp source just as good? I am trying to gather opinions now, before getting too far ahead of myself in terms of committing myself, prior to the construction of the layout. Feedback with the Aristo Revolution would be appreciated, if there are better options, I certainly would appreciate it. I am not be any means an expert on DCC, just a beginner, I’ve seen a various DCC manufactures but it seems the Revolution would be a easier option for someone at my level, just starting out. I hope to pick-up the power source and controller (Revolution???) at the G-Scale show in York, PA in March. Feedback is appreciated regarding these topics!!! I am just starting with moving the layout outdoors, to this point it has been only a simply loop in the basement with a 4.5A Crest power source and Aristo throttle (5401????). I am certainly not an electrical engineer but have been trying to read up on this topic as much as possible through the My Large Scale site and other sources. Thanks in advance. Chris.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Buy the Aristo power supply, it is a regulated output, meaning the output voltage will not vary. This is NOT true for the Bridgeworks. 

Over voltage can be a problem for the Aristo equipment, as for any equipment when you exceed the maximum voltage. 

Also, the Bridgeworks is overkill for your application. It excels in normal DC operation of very high current trains, and smooth throttle control, but you are not doing this. 

I prefer DCC to the Revolution because of the increased capability and being non-proprietary, I can buy systems and decoders from many different manufacturers to get exactly what I want. 

The Revolution must work with revolution receivers, and a small subset of the sound boards out there. 

By the way, not to make matters any worse, but I have had issues with the Aristo 15 amp "Everest" and do not recommend it. Some people have no issues, but I and several of my friends have. I gave mine away. Their 10 amp "Elite" has no such issues. 

For a fixed power situation, there are many more inexpensive power sources that will perform perfectly, the Meanwell line of power supplies has been used by many people on this forum, including myself, and have performed very well. 

If you are in a quandary about Revolution vs. DCC, I would do some more reading on what each system is capable of and get a true accounting of the per loco cost and make your decision. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I agree pretty much with everything Greg posted above. 

In fact, there is nothing in Greg's post that I disagree with or have a different opinion about. 

As to using DCC in the future, I think that depends where you want to take your railroad, what kind of operation you prefer and how many trains you want to run at once. 
If DCC is in your future, you should try to buy power equipment that is re-usable with DCC at a later stage or if by its nature, it's not usable with DCC, try to get equipment that can be resold easily. 

From my experience, even for analog operation, a regulated power supply and a separate throttle provides much better performance than a traditional model train power pack. I also use the Meanwell power supplies, they are technically top notch and relatively inexpensive. 

One option you should probably look at is a power system that Piko just came out with. I have no first hand experience with it but it sure sounds good on paper. 
There is a 5 amp analog throttle which I just added to the gbdb database: 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2818 

You can use that with any regulated DC power supply (or an AC transformer) to get started. 

Then if you want wireless control, you can continue to use that analog throttle and add a wireless receiver plus this hand held throttle: 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2819 
And if you decide to move to DCC, you can keep both the handheld throttle and the wireless receiver and replace the 5 amp analog throttle with the Piko DCC Central Station. 
The 5 amp analog throttle can then be sold - there are always people looking for a 5 amp throttle it seems. 

The Piko DCC system is based on the Massoth DCC system. 
Massoth has been in the Large Scale DCC scene for years, their DCC system is pretty pricey - pretty much the Cadillac, the Piko system will probably do pretty much eveything you need. 

The Piko throttle also seems to be compatible with the Lenz Xpressnet bus and the Digitrax Loconet bus, so you even have choices which DCC Central station to go with come "DCC time" 

As to stainless steel track - as you already know, the conductivity of stainless steel is much, much less that brass - actually bt a factor of ten worse. 
Adding rail clamps is not going to improve that -if your layout is of any substantial size, you will need to run additional feeders to different areas of your layout. 
In my opinion, stainless steel track is overrated. I use brass and have no problems using it outside. Most of my locos have sliders, not very prototypical but they seem to help a lot with power pickup. I think the best track for a track-powered railroad from a cost, maintenance and conductivity point of view is nickel-plated brass rail. Just hard to find in the US plus you need to know what you're buying. 
There are two basic ways to plate brass, one method lasts forever (used by Thiel in Germany for their track), the other not so much (LGB used that and has now discontinued nickel plated track). 
Probably a moot point since neither track is readily available in the US.


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## buckitrain (Feb 18, 2009)

Greg,

Thanks for the respons. I appreciate the infomration presented. In reference to the power question which Meanwell model would you recomend. I was thinking that 15-25AMPS at 24V would be enough power to start with and leave me room when the time comes to expand the layout. I want to make sure that if i am going to invest in a power unit now, I don't leave myself short in the future. Is there a particular vendor of the Meanwell power supplies or do you purchase them directly from the manufacturer? I was looking at the Aristo 15 AMP 55468 but after seeing what you wrote about this unit, I'll be staying clear of that one. I am open to any recommendations that you have and welcome any suggestions. 
In terms of the DCC, which transmitter and decorders would you recommend going with?? and where would you recommend purchasing them from?


I am not entirely sold on the Train Revolution but I am not entirely sure of DCC and how that works. I've read what you indicated regarding the proprietary issues one faces when commiting to the Aristo Revolustion. In fact someone mentioned that I should not use a DCC system since the signal is sent through the track and recommeded to go with the Revolution. I am not sure how easy it is to hook-up or install any decoder either DCC or the Aristo, it is all new to me. 

Thanks again.
Chris


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I have an opinion (surprise! ha ha ha).... 

I'd rather set up my system with separate "power districts" at 10 amps each. If you have ever watched what 10 amps shorting through the wiring of a loco can do, you haven't lived yet, 15-25 amps is worse! 

I would rather deal with a lower source amperage, now in DCC this is easy to do, it's a modular design, and you can easily add separately "fused" power districts, and also use multiple power supplies effectively (I won't go into detail, this is effectively what you get from multiple power supplies and multiple boosters and other components) 

The only issue is having single trains not go over 10 amps in my case... I have an 8 car passenger train that draws about 9.7 amps, but most of it is the lights, which I am converting to LED. 

That will take the train down to about 3-5 amps, so two heavily loaded trains in each district. 

I got my Meanwell from J&R electronics, I just googled or went to amazon, forget which. 

On the DCC vs. Revo question, you should look at the features of each and see which you want and need. 

Now, the issue of not using DCC because the signal is sent through the track is completely wrong. On reason DCC works well is that the signal is not only sent through the track, but is basically almost impossible to interfere with... because of how the actual frequency of the signal is also the "data"... power drop/sag cannot affect the signal, realistically speaking. 

Wireless transmission is ALWAYS more subject to interference and range issues. In DCC, if you have power to the loco, you have signal. You can have a layout as large as a football field and you can control any train from any location. 

You cannot do that with simple radio control from the throttle to the loco... that's why you see discussions on range ALL the time on those systems, and you never see "range" discussed on DCC systems. (note, not all track powered system are as robust, there are some proprietary track powered systems that don't have good range either). 

Hooking up decoders is actually fairly easy, it can be complicated if you want more lighting features AND the lighting stock is tricky. Also, if you are going with sound, the Revo needs a separate sound board and wiring and there are issues there (that do have solutions)... In DCC you would normally buy a decoder that has power and sound all in one device, like those from Digitrax, Zimo, QSI, ESU, Massoth (to list just a few). 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

While Massoth has been referred to a sthe Cadalic of DCC, my belief is Zimo is the Rolls Royce/maseriti of DCC. 

You do get what you pay for. 

MRC is the Yugo!!!! When it blows up you go get another!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And the model you bought is no longer available. 

And I consider the NCE the Shelby Cobra of DCC, ha ha! More powerful, and has only the things I need! 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 25 Feb 2011 04:30 AM 
While Massoth has been referred to a sthe Cadalic of DCC, my belief is Zimo is the Rolls Royce/maseriti of DCC. 





I know that Zimo likes to position themselves as the "ultimate" DCC system but I don't see any rationale why.

For me, the throttle design and ease of use is the key element that I look at.

Of course, the other factors like power and functionality play a role but any "decent" DCC system are pretty much equivalent in that aspect. 

Sure, one can always find a feature on one system that the other one doesn't have, but those are typically proprietary capabilities that often require a specific DCC decoder to function and that sort of destroys the whole concept of DCC in that all DCC decoders will work with any DCC Central Station.


With Zimo I'm still locked into using only their throttle I believe (unless that changed very recently) and I just don't find the slider control very user friendly especially when one switches from one engine to another and the throttle has to be adjusted to match the new engines speed. 

Zimo also had no wireless option for the US and Canada for many years, wireless operation was an absolue "must" for me. I think the new design from Zimo that's coming down the pipe will finally address that issue that has been there for years.

To me, Zimo, Massoth, NCE, CVP are pretty much equivalent, there are probably others.

Lenz I think is underrated, with Digitrax I'm not happy with the quality of their construction after I opened one of their Central Stations, but Digitrax is probably the most common DCC system in the US.
I'm a bit intrigued with the new Piko DCC system which is essentially Massoth at a lower price point. I just don't know enough about it yet.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Chris,
If you don't need 15 amps and can get buy with 10, then I've had very good luck with Ultima CRE-55460, Aristo's 10 amp supply. I've been using one now for about 6 years and so far I have not had any issues with it. If you go with the Bridgeworks, you can open the case and adjust the current and voltage +/- a bit. I had to get into a friends and crank his up about 2 volts. I'm not sure what the lower limit would be and you should call the factory and ask what the limits are. My opinion is though that it's a bit overpriced and there are other choices that are cheaper. You can spend the money you save on more track. \


On the track. I have about 1,000 feet of track down and it's all Brass. Depending on where you live though should be factored into what type of track holds up best for the environment. Along the coast, the salt can cause real problems with Brass I hear. Here in Ohio, Brass works out just fine. 


Good luck getting started and hope everything works out for you.

Mark

*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Please remember that Bridgeworks, in fact the owner does NOT recommend their products for DCC. This has to do with the fact that it is an unregulated variables supply, and open circuit voltage (under light loads) can sometime hit very high voltages, as high as 35 volts has been reported. For electronic devices with a strict upper limit, this can be a problem. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Revolution must work with revolution receivers, and a small subset of the sound boards out there. 

I might clarify the sound part of that statement. There are two "classes" of sound boards on the market--those that work under DCC and those that do not. The DCC systems work with DCC but do not work with other (proprietary) systems like the Revolution, etc. The non-DCC systems work with the proprietary systems, but do not work with DCC. _They are mostly mutually exclusive products._ (Phoenix is at the moment the only one that works with either control protocol.) In terms of overall choices, there are probably similar numbers in "practical" use in either camp. (One could list all the manufacturers of sound systems for either protocol, but many of them would have a very small market share.) The DCC systems tend to have more functions, because that's the inherent nature of DCC. The other systems are designed for the simpler control protocols. 

Quite frankly, if you're looking for through-the-track control, then I'd opt for DCC. The Revolution is a great, easy to use system, but it's really better suited towards battery-powered installations. It's not very tolerant of power dropping out, hence the need for a capacitor board to be plugged into the receiver. DCC systems have been refined over the years so that it's now quite optimized for track power outdoors. Programming is a little more non-intuitive than the Revolution, but after one or two go-rounds, it makes sense. (This from someone who was completely clueless about DCC three years ago.) Yeah, I still keep the manufacturers' instructions handy whenever I do any programming, but that's just the nature of the DCC beast. More capabilities = more programming complexity. 

Just my thoughts. I'm as happy with my Revolution-equipped locos as I am my Airwire and QSI (DCC) locos. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses. But I run battery power, so my criteria are different. If I were running track power (though to me, that's akin to saying "if I had an outhouse instead of indoor plumbing"  ), I'd go with DCC. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd probably put them in 3 groups, NOT mutually exclusive. 

1. sound cards with trigger inputs 
2. Sound cards that work on DC input for speed and variations in speed might trigger bell, whistle, brakes. 
3. Sound cards that work on DCC 

So Phoenix is in all 3 groups. 
Dallee is in groups 1 and 2 
Zimo is in 2 and 3 

Just an even finer point on the pencil, but important distinctions to make... 

So back to the sentence Kevin quoted, the "small subset" implies that the Revolution can control them, so that is group 1 membership. That is indeed a small subset of ALL decoders that can make sound that are for sale. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

In terms of using the function buttons on the controllers to trigger sounds, the camps are very much mutually exclusive. You can no more use the F2 button on the NCE controller to blow the whistle on a Sierra board as you can use the F2 button on the Revolution button to trigger the whistle on a QSI board. Under those circumstances, there's little crossover. That's the distinction I'm drawing. Since the discussion is centered around using some kind of advanced control protocol, using track voltage/polarity to trigger sounds doesn't enter the discussion. (Most boards, regardless of whether they're DCC or not, have some degree of "analog DC" control.) 

Sure, if you want to include _all_ the DCC sound decoders in the discussion, whether suitable for large scale or not, then the 6 or 7 non-DCC boards on the market may be a small subset of the total, and of those, only two or three have the lion's share of the market. But in realistic terms, how many DCC boards are commonly being used in large scale? Probably about the same number of non-DCC boards. In terms of US sounds, Phoenix and QSI are the top dogs. So, in that light, the systems compatible with each protocol are--for practical purposes--quite similar. Their overall functionality may be night-and-day different, but that's the clear advantage of DCC. 

Later, 

K


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