# LGB REVERSE LOOP WIRING QUESTIONS



## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I am creating a passing siding INSIDE of a REVERSE LOOP, ie, between the 1015T and the 1015K. The passing siding wiring diagram can be found on page 118 of the "World of LGB' book. Presently the reverse loop is controlled by the LGB reverse loop track set, 1015T/1015K. Operation is automatic. The trains traverses the loop and reverses the main line polarity as it passes over a 17100 contact. The train ALWAYS enters the loop in the same direction. 

My question would be; Is there any reason the above scenario wouldn't work inside the reverse loop? 

In my minds eye, I see all of the wiring connections inside of the loop.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan, 
Even though we used two reverse loop modules in our last layout, we still have somewhat of a limited experience with them. Trying to remember the wiring we used there were certainly wires inside and outside the reverse loop. If you're creating a siding inside the loop and since sidings tend to run the same polarity as the track they are adjacent to unless they are used to create a figure "S" with the track and understanding that as long as you keep the polarity the same on the tracks there shouldn't be an issue. As long as you either use one turn-out to enter with a dead end bumper or use a second turn-out to re enter the track somewhere down the line without having the train reverse direction when it re enters the mainline. The only time we've had a need for a reverse loop module (double throw switch) was when you leave the mainline in a confuguration of track and turn-outs (or wye) and reverse the forward direction of the train when it renters the mainline. Maybe I'm missing something here but...


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

You were on the right track Joe. Since the entire operation is automated, once I turn the track power on I just let the trains run and control one another, the trains will always enter and leave the reverse loop in the same direction. In this case the station stop, or alternating trains, is entirely between the 1015T and the 1015K. The two turnouts, one at each end of the passing siding, are also within the loop. The polarity on the main line is reversed when the magnet equipped locomotive passes over the 17100 contact, which is also within the reverse loop. 

I've been over it again and again. Studying the wiring diagram that I drew, and can't find a problem with it. I'll try to post the wiring diagram later. 

Thanks for your input.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

As long as the two sidings and their turn-outs are before the reed switch, I don't see why this should present any problems.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Dan, 

You don't mention what the actual problem is that you encountered, but one problem I see right away is that you will not have any power at all in a portion of the reverse loop if you just follow the diagrams in the LGB book. 

The alternating siding wiring as shown requires power from both the "a" and the "b" direction. If the alternating siding is part of an oval, you get that automatically. But if you place the alternating siding inside a reverse loop, each end of the reverse loop is totally isolated from the main and power is fed into the reverse loop only from one direction through the diode bridge. 
So on the other side, you have a double gap (1015T) in the track on one end and a single gap in the track from the alternate siding arrangement - therefore a section which never gets any power. 

I'm just guessing here since I don't know how you actually wired all this, but just combining the two wiring arrangements shown in the LGB book won't work. 

Regards, Knut


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Wiring diagram;

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/madman/100_3246.JPG

OK, what's going on here. I'm not in the mood right now to try and figure out why the picture will not post. This is the first time this has happened for me.

(Image size exceeds max 640 pixel width (i.e. 1024 x 768) and file size size to large (418,215 bytes) changed to link, SteveC mod.)


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Dan -

We just finished discussing this in the traditional power section:

Traditional Power Forum/Topic: REVERSE LOOPS AN SIDINGS ???


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

KRS, 

I saw that post. As a matter of fact, I had forgotten that I was the originator of that post. 

Now I am creating a similar scenario at the other end of my layout, and thought I would post the complete wiring diagram. 

However, for the first time I am having trouble posting a photo. The link comes up in black and white instead of blue. 

What's up? What am I doing wrong? 

I typed in


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Not quite as always. 
In the second bracket, the slash goes at the beginning of img, not the end.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

KRS, 

Thank you very much.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 08/31/2008 10:55 AM
KRS, 
Thank you very much.




You're very welcome, Dan. 

So the diagram you posted works the way you want it to work? 

Seems a lot more complex that I expected with two more EPL drives and four more trigger points than the original idea. 
Can you describe briefly how this works and why you need these extra components?


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Allow the upper track in the wiring diagram to be known as Track #1, the lower track will be #2. 

A train waits on track #2. The signal ( the EPL drive with the odd shape ) is set for stop. 

As a train enters track #1, it triggers the signal on track #2 to switch from STOP to GO. And at the same time the insulated block on track #2 becomes energized. However, since the track power is routed through the 53750 TIMER, the train on track #2 doesn't move righjt away. Remember, track #1 is de-energized due to it's signal being in the stop position when the train pulls in. 

When the train on track #2 finally moves, it crosses over the final 17100 contact which sets the signal for track #2 back to a stop signal. 

The whole operation repeats itself indefinately. I have the same setup at the other end of my layout where there is also a reverse loop. The only difference there is that the 1015T and the 1015K are located before the passing siding arrangement. But the passing sidings are still within the loop. Every once in awhile when I first power up the main, a train waiting at THAT siding will move in reverse, causing a short. That only happens when I power up the main too soon I suspect. I think it may have something to do with the timer, however, I'm not 100% sure about that. 

When I finally get the second reverse loop re-arranged as the diagram shows, I will be able to run four trains at the same time on a single track main line with a reverse loop at each end. Of course only one train is moving at any given moment with the exception of a passing siding that is between the reverse loops. What happens with that siding is as follows; When a train leaves Joshua Station, which is the station that is going to have the renovations done to it to conform to the wiring diagram in the photo, it triggers a signal at Elizabeth Station, where there is a train waiting for that signal to turn green. When the signal, mentioned above, turns green, the train waits for about ten or fifteen seconds before it moves, since it too is wired to a 53750 timer. What I should have mentioned was that a train on it's way back to Joshua from the other end of the layout travels through Elizabeth, on the track behind the station, without stopping. 

I will make a diagram of the entire layout and post it tomorrow, so that all of this can be absorbed without giving anyone a headache. 

Basically, the station stops at the reverse loops are controlled via EPL components, as is the station stop at Elizabeth. The only station stop controlled via one of Curtis Roecks StationStopprs is at Donna, more toward the center of the layout. That is a single track with the train stopping as it arrives from either direction.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

I will be able to run four trains at the same time on a single track main line with a reverse loop at each end. 

four? not just three? 
on each end one train on one siding, plus one moving, i would think.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 09/01/2008 10:32 AM
I will be able to run four trains at the same time on a single track main line with a reverse loop at each end. 

four? not just three? 
on each end one train on one siding, plus one moving, i would think.




In the description above Dan mentions a passing siding on the main line between the two reverse loops. 
That could theoretically make it four trains.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

Dan mentions a passing siding on the main line 

didn't note that. yes, then it can be four.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Here is the track diagram I promised. Very rough sketch, and not to scale. The overall distance from one reverse loop to the one at the other end is about 125'. The passing siding at Elizabeth is where the train heading back to Joshua from Donna travels on the upper track in the diagram strait through without stopping.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/madman/100_3247.JPG

_(Image exceeded max 640 pixel width (i.e. 1024 x 768) & file size to large (i.e. 350,780 bytes) changed to link, SteveC mod.)_


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan, 

I have to ask why not just run a double track and not mess with the reverse stuff or keep the loops and have them be able to run independently of the actual connecting track. Maybe that's what you are doing but the diagram actually shows the train entering and exiting the loop but not beaig able to remain in the loops. 

I understand that the added expense of the track could be an issue yet in the long run won't it be more fun to operate. 

I like the idea but just wanted to ask.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Joe, 
On the question of a double track main, I had eliminated half of the track I had about five years ago and went to loops at each end to save on track maintainance. when I did the renovations, I had alot of areas of the remaining track where a double main would not fit. 

I'm not sure about your second question though. The operation will be as follows; 

Two trains are placed on the track at Joshua ( train #1 and #2 ), one at Elizabeth ( train #3 ), and one at Emily ( train #4 ). Train #1 leaves Joshua. As it leaves the station it triggers the signal at Elizabeth to change to a go signal. Now trains #1 and #3 are running at the same time. As train #3 leaves the station it triggers it's signal to change back to a stop position, stopping train #1. Train #3 continues on to Donna. It is paused there by a StationStopper. After the pause, it continues on to Emily. As it pulls into the emty siding at Emily, it triggers the signal on the opposite track to turn to green or go. It also triggers the turnout it just crossed over to align with the opposite siding. So that the next train to enter Emily will do a similar operation that train #3 just did. Train #4 leaves Emily and travels to Donna where it pauses, then continues toward Elizabeth, where it does not stop, but continues on to Joshua via the track behind Elizabeth station. As train #4 pulls into the emty siding at Joshua, it triggers the signal on the opposite track to a go signal and sets the turnout it just crossed to align with the track that train#2 is on. Now train #2 leaves the station and starts the process all over again by releasing train #1 at Elizabeth.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

My two cents worth.................. 

I personally think the track plan and operation are great. Having a single main line, stations at each end and two stations on the main line seems very realistic for a smaller railroad - at least to me. 
If the reverse loops were eliminated in favour of a dual mainline, the savings n electronics and wiring complexity would only be minimal. the two 1015 reverse loop track sections at each end. 
All the rest would still be needed to control the trains at the stations.


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