# Outdoor Layouts: Garden Railroad or Railroad Garden?



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Is there really a difference? I believe there is … at least conceptually. When I decided to transition into outdoor large scale railroading, I brought with me many of the ways of doing things I had used for many years in my indoor smaller scale modeling. Things like forced perspective, selective compression, scale fidelity, controlled lighting, controlled focal points, and many of the other tricks-of-the-trade that model railroaders utilize to alter a viewer’s perception of their models. Many of these modeling concepts tend to clash head-on with the constraints imposed by garden landscaping. After all, any layout in the outdoors must endure the whims of Mother Nature. We can try to fight her, but we all know that Mothers always have the final say. The key is to achieve a balanced compromise that provides the best of both worlds and minimizes the apparent conflicts.
As I work on my latest – and hopefully my last – outdoor layout, I want to take advantage of all of my previous experiences, both good and bad. I hope to utilize lessons-learned and take advantage of the multitude of great ideas willingly shared by others on this great forum. As I performed the various trade-offs associated with designing the layout, I quickly realized that there is no such thing as a “standard” outdoor layout. All of our layouts represent the uniqueness that each of us bring to the hobby. All of us must deal with various constraints, whether they be space, weather, our individual state of health, available budget, or our simple likes and dislikes. That said, in general I feel that most outdoor layouts fall into one of the following types. I am interested in hearing if others feel likewise, and into which type your own layout falls. I am also interested in hearing things you may feel to be the pros and cons of each type. In other words … if you had it to do all over again, would you do it differently?
*Railroad Only – No Garden:* Many outdoor layouts emphasize the railroad as the primary object with the garden only serving as an accessory. In some outdoor layouts, the garden is actually non-existent! The layout is nothing more than a model railroad located outside. On these layouts, items such as landscape timbers or block walls usually define where the layout begins and clearly separate it from the lawn or garden in which it resides. Some are nothing more than a continuous bridge structure. This type of outdoor layout is all about the railroad. Many of them are elevated above the level of the surrounding lawn or garden for easier access. Don’t misunderstand me; I love this type of outdoor layout. They are easier to build … they are easier to maintain … they are easier to operate … and they are fun.
*Railroad First – Garden Later: * Many outdoor layouts incorporate garden elements within the railroad. On these layouts, the builder usually designs the track plan first with all of the necessary contours and elevations. After the track is in place and the trains are running, the builder then begins to move vast amounts of dirt and rocks, and to populate the layout with appropriate plantings and textures needed to transform the raw layout into a garden railroad. Probably most outdoor layouts fall within this broad category. The garden portion of the outdoor layout may be scale-oriented and naturalistic, with small-leaved plants and shrubs selected to mimic representations of prototype vegetation. Or, conversely, the garden portion may be populated with amazing diversity, using profuse colors and textures of plantings to create a sensuous treat for the viewer as the trains traverse the layout.
*Garden First – Railroad Later:* Most of these layouts started with an existing garden or yard space and the railroad was designed to fit within it. Minor changes to the existing landscape may have been made be made to accommodate the track, but for the most part, the trains traverse existing terrain. At maturity, this type of outdoor layout is hard to distinguish from the previous type. Both have a natural blend of railroad and landscape elements. But on careful examination, subtle differences do exist. In a garden first type of layout, the track right of way carefully follows the terrain of the garden. Every curve, every grade, and every bridge is located strictly by the demands of the garden terrain. Few items, if any, look out of place.
*Garden and Railroad Together:* At first glance, one might think that this type of layout is just like the garden first type of layout. After all, the garden is the primary emphasis and that the railroad is nothing more than an accessory that runs through it. But this is actually a carefully constructed illusion. It is true that the garden portion of the layout is designed first. But, every feature of the garden landscape is designed with the railroad in mind: rivers and valleys to cross … mountains to climb over or tunnel through … towns and villages to connect. The layout is easily divided into multiple scenes or vignettes, each of which can be designed to optimize both the modeling and landscaping perfection. The garden terrain can be manipulated to accommodate minimum radii and maximum gradients required by the railroad. The railroad track plan can be manipulated to accommodate the placement of terrain and vegetation features required by the landscape. It is a give-and-take exercise; with continual trade-offs involving desirability, feasibility, cost, accessibility, maintenance, operation, and ultimate effect.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob,

Interesting post. I fall in to the 2nd category, railroad first, garden later. My railroad is located generally along the fringes of the property, in an area that was overgrown with weeds and trees when we first moved in. I had grand dreams of filling in a large 20' diameter loop, but that fell by the wayside as budget constraints dictated that monies be spent on other more essential items. Gradually, some plants have been cultivated, but by no means is my railroad a beautiful garden. 

I think this has a lot to do with the planning, or complete lack thereof, of my railroad. I got track and made that fit within the space I had. In the next iteration of outdoor railroad, I will be planning for people a lot better, since that has become one of the main reasons to rebuild. Plants will be third!! People, trains then plants!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Definitely the fourth category for me! The concept for the Kansas Central & Colorado RR is "Trains running in a garden." The track may have been layed first but the whole concept was an integrated one.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I have plans drawn up for my railroad, and a long-term landscape reconstruction project underway, but I haven't yet built a garden railroad, so these are only my thoughts, preferences and plans, not a "if I had it to do all over again" perspective: 

I, too, am coming to the large scale side of the hobby after having done a fair bit of work in HO scale. I'd still prefer an indoor HO scale layout, but my current house is not amenable to that, so I've resigned myself to building an outdoor railroad if I'm going to have one at all. Being able to run live steam will help ease the resignation. My interest is in having a functioning, purposeful logging and mining railroad that I can operate as such; I know absolutely that I would quickly tire of simply "running trains". My house is on 0.6 acres, so I have plenty of space for conventional landscape gardening, thus my railroad area, which will be a 75 foot long ("tall") 'P' shape varying from 15 foot to 40 foot wide, will be primarily focused on the railroad. That said, I still want it to integrate nicely with the rest of the landscaping and not be a liability in case I ever sell the property, so it will be built in a raised planter manner using the same wall blocks and undulating curves that I've used for the ornamental beds. I'll use miniature and dwarf plants in the railroad area to create the forest areas and provide greenery among the rocks; I know it won't be true to scale, but I can live with that. The terrain will be manipulated to work with the railroad except for a low-in-front, high-in-back trend to work with the existing slope along that edge of my property. 

For most of my planning period, the above was as far as the railroad went, but recently I've been noodling on how to extend it to circumnavigate a couple of large planting areas in the main part of my yard, knowing that there will be still be days where I might want to just let a train run for entertainment. I can pick up about 300 feet of run if I do that. That will fall into the garden first - railroad second category.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Odd at first I wanted to say yes, but then again I value my learning experience from my first and growing layout. 
The Unlearning curve was intolerable until the lazy factor plus a 10' blind eye kicked in. 

Dad switched me to HO from Lionel 1960, I graduated to 'sloppy' or 'near' fine scale On3 in the 80s. Some whimsy kept it funner.... 
'Where are we going today Mr. Peabody? Well Junior, I have the wayback machine set for the 60s and Atlas fiber tie flex track. That's when our friend T-wrecks ditched sectional track!' 

The loop of brass that came in the starter set never sullied a wheel. Sectional was all my one local store carried, I was lucky to find SS and so that's what I used. A do over would be flex as I long for true spiral transition curves... 

I don't have a garden, nor much beyond weeds that the critters won't eat. I gots lots of rocks tho'. 

I would like to rip it all out and go linear w/ return loops at each end, single track w/ passing sidings.. That would depend on Javalinas being willing to use over tunnel paths. Presently they do walk around, but my topography creates a line across their migratory route...that might push them to far and they'd go back to forward gear. Up to 300 pounds of cloven hooved peccary! Still I can dream as grow into what I have. 

These trains have let the child come back out, I know enough to get a realistic feel without as much detail. My environment is too harsh for some things and just buries others... who has time to garden when a layout beckons? 

John


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## Dale W (Jan 5, 2008)

Good posts and responses. I have been an avid gardener all my life so suppose garden first is where I come down. However I enjoy my ponds and and created them with railroads in mind. 
So I should say ponds (2), rails and then plants mostly shade and marginal plants in that order. 
Pictures to follow when I can pull all of this together. 

Dale


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

CATAGORY 4 FOR ME, well kinda. Railroad is primary but the landscape has to be in place initially, although plantings, water feature etc. comes later. I gotta get some track down! Goal was by years end but it's not going to happen. One more rather large bridge project has to be completed 1st


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm in the 4th category and though we have a lot of track for the area (~600 ft over ~1,200 sq ft), it is so well integrated into the landscape that people first notice the miniature garden. The fact that it is in the front yard means that everyone who comes to the door sees it so I keep it immaculate.

Tortoise & Lizard Bash RR Web Site


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

last category


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## NedsTJ (Apr 4, 2008)

At my last house I was RF-GL. I laid the track around the trees, then built up and added plants, small pond, bushes, etc as I saw fit. It was actually coming together quite nicely when we decided to sell and move about 15 minutes away. 

At the new place I am blessed with fresh lawn....nary a tree nor bush to contend with.







The wife's given me the back half of the back yard, from the septic mound on (the front half of the back yard is supposed to be for something silly, like a pool or some fool thing). Since it's all "new", I'm taking the G&RT approach. Taking the time to plan it right, knowing what I want and what i like to see running, the scenes I want, the water features, "mountains", etc. Look me up again in about 20 years when it's done!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The closest the CMBY RR comes to being a "Garden RR" is when the loco derails and falls 3 to 4 ft to the Creeping Charlie, crab grass, plantain and dandelions in the Eyeshudmowsoon Jungle below.


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm sorta in the first group. Once I get my layout started on my five acres I'll be fighting the elements like the real deal. On my place, other than shoehorning my future cabin between existing trees it'll be untouched. No lawn, no flower beds... nothing but the trees God planted. Unlike those who have raised roadbed, retaining walls, etc, my line will blend in with the terrain.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

My railroad is a railroad without a garden. We are slowly adding some garden areas within the area of the railroad, but the railroad is predominantly a working railroad with lots of pine needles. We also have a "rustic hill". A hill in a Florida yard is very small, but this is where I have a little shack for a local train stop, and a number of rustic little cabins in the midst of an increasing number of little shrubs and trees.

Ed


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I've done it two ways. 
My first railway in '94 was built up from the lawn with rocks and soil, hills sculpted, plants planted (I came from a garden not a railway background) and then the roadbed was excavated, filled with gravel and sectional track laid. It was modified several times as my interests changed from electric to battery to live steam. The plants were maturing beautifully, ground covers spreading nicely and trains ran often to the delight of our family and many visitors. 
We have recently moved to a blank canvas in the country. I have so far concentrated on general landscaping of the property but the frames for my raised live steam track purchased from Eaglewings are up and track laying is imminent. Some grading and tree removal was accomplished and eventually I will move from railroad only status to disguising some of the railway with plantings and hedging to lessen the railway-on-stilts look that my spouse deems unacceptable as the view from our large living room picture window. There will be few buildings since I enjoy running trains of several scales. My interest in geared locos requires a back woodsy appearance for at least part of the right or way. 
I'm having fun! 
Tom


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think I'm definitely in the "garden and railroad together" category. When I started out, I knew the specific elements I wanted to be able to include in the railroad in terms of sidings and operational features, and I knew the space I had available to try to fit them all in. They both developed together as I designed the landscaping on what was an empty back yard. Some features had to go to fit the space, and the space was altered to accommodate other features that I didn't want to sacrifice. Perhaps I leaned a bit towards the "railroad first" side of things since that was my primary consideration in the design, but it's really been more of a synergistic process. 

Since the track's been in place, it's continued to be similarly synergistic. As I develop ideas for the various vignettes on the railroad, I tend to yank this plant here in favor of that building there, or somesuch. Still, the garden as a visual feature has to be maintained through all the "urban planning." The garden _is_ the railroad and vice versa. 

Later, 

K


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Definitely Garden First, then the Railroad.


I know nothing about gardening, don't really like gardening and maybe wouldn't have 


bought this place if someone had told me that under the three feet of snow (it was 


December) were lots of plants that need a lot of attention. Back in my married days, I 


regarded that as the wife's job; I just mowed the lawn. So my railroading philosophy has 


been to put in a railroad that will work with the existing landscape and reduce my 


"gardening" effort to a minimum. Basically, I let the plantings direct the route of the 


Cheektowaga Central RR. I started with the big flower bed behind the house - fifty feet 


long on a diagonal, SE to NW. From the patio, this is the lower end of it. Phase one - 
just a loop of track.











Phase two, completed this summer, from the NW end of the FlowerBed Loop, which is no 


longer a loop, it's been opened up at this end. The train shed has been built at the 


upper left, removing the "track to nowhere" questions. That big taxus bush will be 
removed next spring.
ng.











Beginning last spring the track started around the side of the house, at the front of 


this bed. One track runs to the front of the bed in front of the house, the other splits 


off earlier, to go behind the bed.
















Nothing much grows against the front of the house because of an overhang that keeps this 
stretch totally shaded (facing north) and dry. It was a no-brainer.












The track beneath the window snakes around the front steps and circles the bushes, one of 


which is, I think, actually a large man-eating weed conglomerate. "As long as it's green" 
that's my motto.













Final piece of work in phase two was brought about by the sudden flash of inspiration 
that this front stretch was crying out for a nice, long siding. 














Since my yard goes back to twenty feet short of the neighbor's garage (cf. top photo), I 


wonder how high would I have to let the grass grow in order to say I'm modeling a short 


line in Kansas (corn)? Could I claim the dandelions are sunflowers?


At least for now, I find it gratifying that the locals seem satisfied with the 
Cheektowaga Central's efforts to satisfy their transportation needs.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

garden first 

to me i love the contrast of the trains with the natural, and the lighting changes, and the weather effects, etc-this is the ONLY thing that makes the hassle of an outside rr worthwhile to me-it offers unique aspects you cant get in an indoor layout

i gscale i am less of a modeler-
but there are many who have done it all like East Broad Top, and the Acoma Central to name a couple that i think are amazing-railroady but the garden really is still a primary feature 

i really like the look of english garden railways, which to me means the train is an accent and point of interest-balanced and integrated into the environs-looks like it is, as mentioned above, finding its way through the existing terrain, 
mostly a rail line with not to many or too conspicuous builidngs -just enough to give a characature-and hopefully at thigh or waist height! 

i also have come to really love plain, short, and simple trains and trackage- 
as much as i love big time locos and long passenger trains-unless i have the garden staff from disney world this isnt practical for me

i run short (which means a shay, mogul, forney, mallet stainz etc and a few cars-all of which will fit into a siding)


i want something not too much to manage-i have plenty to manage in my life 
easy on the mind, easy on the eyes (ignore ti if you like while outside) and easy to maintain 
level is also really important to me for live steam and general ease of operatoin 
manual switches too

i think too it depends on priorities-
my garden and patio area are often used for entertaining and an outside "room" of my home-so i dont like to dominate it with trains
i like something that is of interest but not demanding of attention or that takes over the enjoyment of the patio, koi pond, garden beds etc

big time operations and yards -not gonna be in a garden imho -
OTOH if you dont care about plants and flowers, or dont really use the area for much else 
-then a train set is a great use for the waste land of a back yard to many 


i really dislike the look of a 'train set' in the back yard- 
i have seen some with the equivalent of a 4x8 but in g scale-outside - 
like a giant sandbox with a loop and yard area and lots of little houses in a row, etc
that being said ive also seen some great small rr's with lots of things in a tiny area that still works beautifully


i think Jack Ms garden is great-not an eyesore to the garden , tucked in nicely and integrated with the house as well as the garden, part of the garden, and mostly trains, not lots of clutter etc-and expansive-relaxing to look at


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

JackM, isn't it amazing how invasive garden railroads are? You put one in and next thing you know, there's track all over the yard.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

If only the railroad was as invasive as the weeds. 

Although there is some new growth in my basement: a cluster of Aristo "wide" switches, bunches of Sunset Valley SS track still fresh and unbent, and a lone double-slip switch. Good thing I picked up a bag of pneumatic hose and manifolds to control it all. It's gonna be a rugged Spring. 

JackM


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know what category I am in but I chose my current house for the back yard to put a railroad in. The railroad and the yard are one. The landscaping or 'garden' was selected over time to fit the spaces around the railroad. Here is a clip: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58nLSEbDnks&feature=related 

I find that many 'garden' railroads I visit have been confined to a certain part of the yard like an orphan. That is do to the lack of negotiating ability of the owner with his partner. lol. I prefer railroads that encompass the whole of the yard and are a part of it. 

Here is a video that gives some good overviews of the Texas Western.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiV9...re=related


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## Fred (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm in the 1st catagory. I have a point - to - point railroad that is in my backyard. It is the main focus of the yard (besides a small pond). There are some plants in the yard and during the spring I do put in some annuals to give the yard color but the yard is all about the railroad


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I said I was in the last category. In the winter I enjoy building my own trains in 7/8 scale. As soon as the weather warms, I enjoy the garden and scenery and track aspect more. There's no burnout with trains, as some I've spoken to have experienced. Personally, I could probably go all year just building trains with occasional running, but the gardening and meditative aspects to me are relaxing. I just enjoy nature and being out in the yard with the beagles and maybe a cold one 

Dave


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 08 Feb 2011 12:06 PM 
I said I was in the last category. In the winter I enjoy building my own trains in 7/8 scale. As soon as the weather warms, I enjoy the garden and scenery and track aspect more. There's no burnout with trains, as some I've spoken to have experienced. Personally, I could probably go all year just building trains with occasional running, but the gardening and meditative aspects to me are relaxing. I just enjoy nature and being out in the yard with the beagles and maybe a cold one 

Dave 

LOL Dave. Now that's real garden railroadin. 
jf


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

For me, I am in a fifth slot in that I am designing both the garden and the railroad together as one and will construct it as such. juist like out indoor cousins, the landscaping does come after the trackwork, but my track will not get ballast before mulching and planting and therefore, the railroad will be built in one large stage, PUT EVERYTHING IN PLACE AT ONCE.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Since I started out with all lawn I would have to say I had the railroad first with the garden after. Now that the track is down I have to say I drifted to the last catagory. I really enjoying planting things and creating a wild look for the railroad to run through. To me the garden is what really makes an outdoor RR come to life.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I think Shawn took the words out of my mouth. I started off with just a lawn, laid track on it and moved on from there. I had almost no intrest in the graden aspect at first. Now i find that is one of the most enjoyable parts.
Bob
SA 1969 (also the live steam is sure fun)


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The gardening aspect really does sneak up on you! I find myself doing more gardening than railroading in the summer!


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

I've always been the slap it all together, hope it looks good type. So far, I've been lucky.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); But you forgot to ask about 2 possibilities: Garden Railway or Railway Garden









I'm house hunting. One thing I'm looking for is a nice place for a railway. My thought is not to garden it at first, but to garden pieces of it and I get the whim and a few extra bucks. But then, I'm clinging to middle-class with my fingernails. 


@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

I built the railroad first. My wife then planted the plants and ground covers. She made sure that everything was in "scale" with the trains. We cut back every year to keep things in proportion.


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## gigawat (Apr 4, 2012)

I loved this thread.... But where are the pictures? I would love to see all of your hard work!


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## Jonnychuffchuff (Dec 24, 2010)

I started with a garden. Then put in a railroad. But it didn't work. 

Too low to the ground. Couldn't see the trains, for Heaven's sake! 

Too roundy-roundy. BORING!!! I moved in a ton of rocks and dirt to raise the railroad. Still roundy-roundy. 

Can't my trains do more than this? I wanted 'way more railroad than that. 

I was tired of moving rocks and dirt. That wasn't why I started all this, to do all this heavy lifting every weekend. What a lousy hobby! 

So I gave up on the garden. 

Then I built a railroad. On a baseboard high enough to see the trains and OPERATE them. I wanted to run trains. I wanted it all a lot higher too. 

I don't call it a garden railroad. 

I call it a backyard railroad. 

I like gardening. But I love trains. So these are my priorities. If I have room for a garden later on it will be only secondary. 

None of my trains run around in circles or run around at the level of my ankles. Point to point and lots of operation. 

Looks crappy, runs great, is a whole TON of fun, and I don't even notice or care that it isn't as pretty as it used to be. I can work on that at my leisure....


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By gigawat on 15 Apr 2012 07:00 PM 
I loved this thread.... But where are the pictures? I would love to see all of your hard work! 

Here you go.

A Tortoise & Lizard Bash Quicky


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Todd; 

Looks like you may have all of the Bear Wiz Beer refers. Correct? 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Jonnychuffchuff, You described my outdoor railroad to a "T". My wife has planted some formal gardens in the middle of my railroad, but mine, like yours, is definitely an operating "outdoor" railroad - not a garden railroad. I believe that is one of the strengths of this hobby. We can each do and build what suits us and provides us pleasure. 

Ed


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Dave Meashey on 18 May 2012 06:51 AM 
Thanks Todd; 

Looks like you may have all of the Bear Wiz Beer refers. Correct? 

Best, 
David Meashey 

Yes, I have the full set of 6 (with matching "box numbers") as do two other members in our club. Four run wit hthe train and two are being serviced. Gustav has been automated to push a block of ice into one of them. He can actually ride around the layout doing so as everything is contained in the reefer.



I think that 200 sets were made. One member of our club want to do some cabeese, and has a yellow prototype (yellow for pee). He was asking for opinions and I and a couple other people said they had to be white to match the other 6 cars. I can probably get one of these made for you if he does start and are intereseted.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"I can probably get one of these made for you if he does start and are intereseted."


Thanks Todd;


I just admire them. Don't really want any.
I'm just glad that my wife let me keep my Hooker.




















Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I found this great old topic under "Similar Threads." It was not my topic and I never noticed it or posted on it before but it's worth bringing up again.

In my case I would say ours is a Railroad without a garden. My wife added some landscaping and a small garden years ago but she can no longer maintain it so it is left alone unless it interferes with the trains.

I wonder if any of those who posted years ago would have a different response today?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Garden and Railroad together.

Even though track was laid much after the landscaping was in, every aspect of the landscaping was designed to accomodate the railroad.

A small loop was run around an area with grass in the center and bordered by a patio. The patio edge curvature was described to the contractor: the curves are 5' radius and you need a 1 foot straight section between them. Had to explain a bit ha ha.

Greg



rhyman said:


> Is there really a difference? I believe there is … at least conceptually. When I decided to transition into outdoor large scale railroading, I brought with me many of the ways of doing things I had used for many years in my indoor smaller scale modeling. Things like forced perspective, selective compression, scale fidelity, controlled lighting, controlled focal points, and many of the other tricks-of-the-trade that model railroaders utilize to alter a viewer’s perception of their models. Many of these modeling concepts tend to clash head-on with the constraints imposed by garden landscaping. After all, any layout in the outdoors must endure the whims of Mother Nature. We can try to fight her, but we all know that Mothers always have the final say. The key is to achieve a balanced compromise that provides the best of both worlds and minimizes the apparent conflicts.
> As I work on my latest – and hopefully my last – outdoor layout, I want to take advantage of all of my previous experiences, both good and bad. I hope to utilize lessons-learned and take advantage of the multitude of great ideas willingly shared by others on this great forum. As I performed the various trade-offs associated with designing the layout, I quickly realized that there is no such thing as a “standard” outdoor layout. All of our layouts represent the uniqueness that each of us bring to the hobby. All of us must deal with various constraints, whether they be space, weather, our individual state of health, available budget, or our simple likes and dislikes. That said, in general I feel that most outdoor layouts fall into one of the following types. I am interested in hearing if others feel likewise, and into which type your own layout falls. I am also interested in hearing things you may feel to be the pros and cons of each type. In other words … if you had it to do all over again, would you do it differently?
> *Railroad Only – No Garden:* Many outdoor layouts emphasize the railroad as the primary object with the garden only serving as an accessory. In some outdoor layouts, the garden is actually non-existent! The layout is nothing more than a model railroad located outside. On these layouts, items such as landscape timbers or block walls usually define where the layout begins and clearly separate it from the lawn or garden in which it resides. Some are nothing more than a continuous bridge structure. This type of outdoor layout is all about the railroad. Many of them are elevated above the level of the surrounding lawn or garden for easier access. Don’t misunderstand me; I love this type of outdoor layout. They are easier to build … they are easier to maintain … they are easier to operate … and they are fun.
> *Railroad First – Garden Later: * Many outdoor layouts incorporate garden elements within the railroad. On these layouts, the builder usually designs the track plan first with all of the necessary contours and elevations. After the track is in place and the trains are running, the builder then begins to move vast amounts of dirt and rocks, and to populate the layout with appropriate plantings and textures needed to transform the raw layout into a garden railroad. Probably most outdoor layouts fall within this broad category. The garden portion of the outdoor layout may be scale-oriented and naturalistic, with small-leaved plants and shrubs selected to mimic representations of prototype vegetation. Or, conversely, the garden portion may be populated with amazing diversity, using profuse colors and textures of plantings to create a sensuous treat for the viewer as the trains traverse the layout.
> ...


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

My current line was developed at the same time, railway and rock garden together. But I am torn between doing the whole raised railway to make running live steam more enjoyable and having a proper(to me)garden railway. I enjoy watching the trains traverse the landscaping, where as a raised railway is like running small scale trains indoors. Not sure how well doing a raised railway in what could be best described by as raised planter boxes would do in our climate with hot humid summers and bone chilling wind in the winter. Think I will stick with my slightly raised line for now! Mike


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

In my case it is a little bit of both. An existing garden, patio, planters, walks and a gazebo pretty much dictated the available areas for the addition of a garden railway. Ground level was desired to allow the trains to move through the landscaping while also allowing free movement to walk around the garden. 8 foot diameter minimum curves also dictated how the various curves would be placed. In the 3 years since most of the track was installed I have expanded the landscaping to flow around the railway. This in contrast to the initial construction where the railway flowed around the existing landscaping. At this point only one small section of grass remains and it probably won't see the end of 2017.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i think i can clear this up. a garden railroad is when a train runs through a garden and the are plants. a railroad garden is when you plant and water your engines and cars, and put plants on the tracks


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's an un-fenced desert, should I bring in tasty plants, I'd be asking for more troubles than nature already hands out.
I tried the rock garden, but on the ground the weather was cruel. I'm elevated now and no garden to waste my train time!
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi TW, it was interesting reading your thread today and the one you posted almost six years ago. Atta boy, keep 'er goin'!!


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Somebody asked for pictures. I'd be happy to oblige with pics of a railroad running thru an honest-to-goodness garden if someone could help me (again) find my photo album here on MLS. I was able to get there three weeks ago, but haven't been able since.

The old HOME, login, HOME at the top, login, then login once more at the top doesn't work for me now.

JackM


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## Dunbar (May 5, 2016)

I would have to say the 2nd catagory. I have been watching all of Dennis Sirrine's videos on you tube as I find ( to my eye anyway) that he has a good balance of garden added to his railroad. To me, it looks good. It has a realistic concept to it that seems balanced.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Well, I'm in the middle of an odd hybrid 

I drew out the whole plan, track plan and garden plan, together. That let me see how I could fit in all the elements I wanted in my limited space, and let me plan for bridges over the stream and pond, a mountain for a RigiDuo, and my town. So you could say that I am in the fourth group, garden and railroad together, because I planned the layout as a coherent whole (or maybe an incoherent hole?)

However, as far as implementation, for almost a year I was in the Railroad only category--I put down most of my track bed and track and then tweaked it to my satisfaction before doing any landscaping / scenery. I was running trains on track without any plants in the raised bed at all. This allowed me to be sure that everything was going to fit. There were a couple places where it looked like I had more space on paper than I really did, for instance where I had to put in my not-a-wye instead of a wye. I did dig the pond before this, just so I could get the bridge sorted out. I really wanted to run trains, so I was fine with sending them around the loop on bare dirt. 






And I did plant a few test plants, just to see what would survive the Kansas winters and summers.

I'm mostly in the second category now: the railroad is mainly finished, but I have a long way to go with finalizing the garden. I am mostly interested in plants that look somewhat scale (Dwarf Alberta Spruce for conifers, boxwood for deciduous, sedum and moss for "grass", etc)

But it's all good. I've seen a number of "railroad only" layouts that I thought would be nice: I'm reaching the age where a waist-high track for steaming would be welcome. And I'm always impressed with the interest created when a train appears in a 1:1 scale looking garden.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

For me the layout was definitly surveyed into an existing garden taking advantage of slope to have a portion at table top height (in particular the steaming bays). But the rest was designed like real railways to fit in the existing terain, all the while observing track geometry rules: IE Wide radius curves (11' minimum, which I would like to modify to17' radius) It was even the origin of one of the most apreciated scenic effects. I had originally planned to make the layout in the upper part of the garden (there is a big slope) where it would have been in a cutting all the time (not ideal for live steam). But when I finally decided to go around the terrace which was the other way (down), I had already started to erect a big fill on one end. It became the inspiration for a big hill which the railroad cuts through in a deep cutting like "the Gap" on the Pennsy and many similiar cuttings in France. This has turned into one of the major scenic effects of the whole layout. Like the real railroad surveyors if they wanted to get across an obstacle to keep the line as high speed as possible they often cut through mountains.


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