# Chinese manufacturing



## mhutson (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys,
There's a book review posted here that provides some interesting insights into how things are done over there:
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ODA5MTM2NmEzM2JkYWZhN2RiZmFkOWIwNGYzZDhhZTU=

The review is by John Derbyshire whose wife is Chinese. Sounds like an interesting book to me! Explains some of the QC issues we have with some of our trains, among other things.


The book is available here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0470405589/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon 


Cheers,

Matt Hutson
Gunnison, CO


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you seen the Aristo DVD?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, but I have seen Aristo locomotives...







(actually I have seen snippets of the Aristo DVD, there is an incredible amount of hand work). 

The article puts into focus a lot I have learned personally, my company is a larger importer of Chinese goods. The "quality fade" is a huge problem, and I've seen it personally in our dealings also. It is cultural. 

This problem shows up in all manufacturers products, I'm not picking on any one in general. But things that were fine for years, like couplers, that all of a sudden, pop open on new locomotives, are explained.


It takes a lot of work to combat the "quality fade" issue, since it is a result of "smart business" in China. 



Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Importers here just have to suck it up and add the cost of a full time Q/C tech at the factories. They've been cheaping out so far and once in a while it comes back to bite them in the a$$. 
Unfortunately most look at the cost of providing the technician vs the cost of dealing with the few 'squeaky wheel' customers that demand things are fixed properly and decide it's cheaper just to deal with the warranty claims. The reality is most people are reluctant to pay the every-increasing shipping costs back to the factory and be without their locomotives for months at a time, and the importers know it. There are exceptions, like Roundhouse in live steam, but they are far and few between. 
At the end of the day the only way to get their attention is by voting with your wallet. 

Keith


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Tires. 
Valve stems. 
Food. 
Baby Formula. 
http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/chinese-defective-products.html 
http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/current.php?artType=view&artMonth=May&artYear=2009&EntryNo=7622 

Drywall. 
http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/category/defective-products 

More food: 
http://www.californiainjuryblog.com/2007/10/defective_products_made_in_chi.html 

Defective Product King: 
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/china-chinese-states-1807337-united-products 

Try to live for a year without Chinese-made goods anymore. 

But, I will tell you this: 
I am being careful to see where the stuff is made. 

If PRC, I try to find an alternative.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well if it's any consolation, eventually the price of oil will make all the shipping of our raw materials to China, plus the return shipping of the finished goods, too expensive and I predict there will be a resurgence of manufacturing close to home. So we'd better start schooling people in how to make things again... 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I remember when we turned up our noses at "Hecho en Mexico".... I'd welcome that quality level again. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/29/2009 12:27 PM
Yep, I remember when we turned up our noses at "Hecho en Mexico".... I'd welcome that quality level again. 

Regards, Greg


GE cap, GE fan motor, and Honeywell relay have all gone bad in my AC unit all in the last twelve months....all Mexican. All replaced with....see subject line.

Replaced a friend's master window switch on her Nissan....made in Mexico? 

But then JD power had higher ratings for NUMMI built Corollas in the 1990s than J cars, so who knows anymore....


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

good article 


i worked as a lawyer for a chinese (Hong kong) based luxury hotel chain (they purchased a US hotel company for thier holdings) 


without meaning to sound rascist -as its not that issue 



the concept of contract in the west versus chinese is entirely different (ie the excuses, ('mr big did not agree to this' -only one of his VP minions regardless of the concept of agency etc- -


or the cultural admiration for clever but unscrupulous conduct (by western standards) -ie 'now that weve made a deal and signed everything, and youve changed positions, relied upon our word, etc, i will re-negoitate unlitaterally, because i had no intention of honoring the agreement and i know you are at a greater disadvantage due to your reliance-' 



is difficult to tolerate-especially as a lawyer doing deals-just horrendous-very embarassing - i eventually left 


it was for me, representing the 'bad guys'- 


however-they are fine with it-its an unwritten part of the road rules-and once you know this, you know no deal is ever really a deal-just so long as it suits them 



very difficult too to actually enforce anything -difficult to work with the chinese legal hurdles-(not as much in UK,  pre  chinese HK, but still a nightmare) -as i learned its hard to outsmart a con-the new ways to avoid a deal -delays , phone tag, sudden lack of english, wire transfers that dont happen, ad nauseum, - the rule i learned is not to pay until you have what or part-of what you want -not to mention the labor laws-its like a marriage with no divorce-


otoh-when they like you or have reason to court you-wonderful beyond belief-like a living christmas regarding business entertainment 


otoh i remember when japanes made was disparaged as well as my experience with my mid 70's english car-i also recall not being too happy with US cars either for a very long time




but, on a more positive note lets start with a list of something made in china that you are happy with 
ill start: 



LGB Genesis and Forneys-not bad at all and darn close to the german IMHO, but clearly not around long enough for quality fade


if my panasonic flat sceen was made in china-its nice too


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 05/29/2009 3:36 PM


if my panasonic flat sceen was made in china-its nice too








There in lies the problem. Clarion, Japanese company that made good car radios. Blaupunkt, German company that made good car radios.

Neither are made in their home countries, now China, Singapore, etc.

So why even bother.

Maybe I should get my '79 Becker Mexico Electronic (looted from a W116 Merc) back from the shop?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Since I've had to deal with this Chinese stuff, I figured, what the heck.....I'll try one of them old Limey Limos. 

FAR easier to fix than crumbling plastic trucks...... 

Trouble with the Japanese stuff, once they figured their poop didn't stink anymore, and their standard of living came up (along with the quality), they priced themselves out of a lot of markets. 

And found some new ones. 

I just can't freaking wait until the Administration mandates that, as what, a 70% owner of General Misunderstanding, that all GM cars be built in China. 

Won't happen, right? 

Right.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm guessing the current administration will put a "carbon charge" on products produced in countries with lax pollution standards to help "correct their carbon foot print". That way thing made in China will cost the same as products made in Japan, UK, Canada, US etc. 
Then the ONLY difference will be QUALITY. 
When our socialized health care kicks in you will be getting lots of stuff from the cheapest vender, thats when the real fun starts.. Lets see how cheap we can make this pace maker.. oops


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

You are not going to get anything made here in the US if you pay the workers a cup of rice.
The minimum wage here in Wa is almost 9.00 an hour. Snot nosed dumb assed kids on your assembly line asking for more.

And then the unions will show up.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

There seems to be an underlying assumption here that quality would be better if manufacturing were done here in the USA. I'm not at all sure this is a valid assumption. Look at the car industry - why can't we get American cars built with the same reliability as the Japanese cars - even when they are built here in the US??!! If you think we have problems with incorrect assembly, try buying an RV!! The RV industry makes the model railroad manufacturers look like saints!! And they are ALL manufactured in the US!!

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Quality control would be a DIFFERENT issue and be easier to correct and not a problem closely related to the underlying culture. 

I have NEVER met an importer that has NOT had the similar experience of "quality fade" from China. NEVER. I have a lot of experience with this in electronics AND other fields. It's universal. 

It's a completely different culture and also a different way of looking at and enforcing laws. 

At least here we would not be fighting the culture... here "if it ain't broke don't fix it" makes sense... it would be a ridiculous statement in China. 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I was in the press and drop hammer forging industry before I retired a few years ago. We made the dies for forgings. In the late 1990's, even our little shops were being asked to comply with the ISO 9000 Standards. These companies complained by the cost of setting up an ISO shop, but they were told that was the ONLY way they would be getting the work. As far as I am aware, those are INTTERNATIONAL standards. Right. So Bachmann and Aristo can stop BS'ing the folks! It's BOTH sides!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Matt


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I went through the initial ISO 9000 "sign up" in a few companies. There's ways to "fake it" unfortunately. That said, even "Faking it" gets you part way there, so it's not all bs. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Short of faking it, there is no question, for a manufacturer to meet ISO 9000, quality would definitely be at least REASONABLY good. I doubt if our manufacturer in CHina is ISO 9000 certified, but it would certainly be interesting to know for sure.

Ed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

You missed my point Greg, about the BS, I believe. Would not Bachmann and Aristo and whomever does the manufacturing, have ISO 9000 Standards to be able to do the work? Most manufacturing companies DO use these standards throughout the world. QC is a big part of this which is exactly WHY I mentioned that Bachmann and Aristo, need to follow these standards-loose screws, counter-weights not tight, over-torqued screws in trucks that cause breakage. There is NO excuse for locomotives to leave the factory in this condition. Period. It's always the bottom-line that bean counters are squawking about that makes for some of this shoddy workmanship. To make it even clearer, the BS I'm talking about is on BOTH sides-Chinese factories and management in THIS country also. About 15-20 years ago, a die shop my Dad owned with some others, had a Taiwanese owner come over here, to open a small sie shop to work with our shop here. There was some head-butting but eventually the Chinese got the message that standards and rules had to be followed OR go out of business. A contract is a contract. We were dealing in aerospace forgings and these are critical pieces. BOTH sides met a common point and all was well. One side can't be blamed. BOTH sides have to want to get this working. End of rant.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I got your point Gary, no problem, and I agree with your rant. I believe Aristo mentioned that Sanda Kan (the original company making the Aristo stuff, later bought by Kader) was an ISO 9000 company. 

But two things are clear to me: The product out of China does not meet ISO 9000 standards, nor do the stateside companies know how to "enforce" the quality level they are basically "promised". 

There are ways to "fake it" in the US to a certain degree, and I would wager a paycheck even better "fakery" in China... and the Stateside companies are likewise at fault (in my opinion) in not holding the "ISO 9000" companies' feet to the file. 

I agree... I'm pretty sure I got your point... 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

You are correct. There is plenty of blame to go around. Somebody needs to set-up to the plate, butt heads and take charge of this. You never know. There just might be a person out there with some funds to invest and has the business knowledge, to start their own company and maybe give Aristo and Bachmann competition. It just has to be done SMARTLY.


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know if any of you have heard of "Buck Knives."
Formerly of San Diego, now Post Falls, Id. a few miles from me.
40% of their products were made in Post Falls, the rest in China.

They recently ceased their Chinese connection and are now manufacturing at home.
The owner said "it is the right thing to do."

All of his distributors say they will eagerly pay the few cents more for the products. 


It is too bad that other companies do not have the same mentality.
They couldn't even give a freak about their home country.


I recently purchased a 2004 Chevy SSR. It is now stalled with my 05 Chevy truck.
Even though it doesn't look good for GM, God bless then anyway.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jebouck on 05/30/2009 9:04 AM
You are not going to get anything made here in the US if you pay the workers a cup of rice.
The minimum wage here in Wa is almost 9.00 an hour. Snot nosed dumb assed kids on your assembly line asking for more.

And then the unions will show up.







AAAAAAANNND it doesn't work BOTH ways? There's no CEOs out there who would EVER think of gutting a company's long term viability, INCLUDING ditching well trained, hardworking employees just to maximize short term profitability -- then grabbing their golden parachutes and taking a powder when their chickens start coming home to roost? There are no shop bosses who cut corners or bully workers, running the ragged edge of legal and ethical standards, just to squeeze out a few more cents, either. Unions do have their place.


The days of small privately owned companies where the owner knows his employees and pays them fair value, and the employees consider themselves craftsmen, not drones, and want to produce a quality product because they are reasonably happy, and take PRIDE in their work -- are over, IF they ever really existed. (Yeah, there are still examples left, but they are the exception, NOT the rule.)


Even it it wasn't, it wouldn't matter anyway. People today generally won't PAY for that standard of quality. They'd rather pay $100 and b#tch because they have to replace it 5 times, than shell out $350 once.


But hey, as long as everything is all about ME, you'll have this.


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm a German living in Australia. I drive a German car becasue it's good, I eat Australian salmon becasue it's good, I buy American products because they are good. It is nor being racist when we say that some countries have certain cultural midsets that might reflect back in the quality of the goods they manufacture. It is not the reources they have, it is a cultural thing. I used to import masonary drill bits from China, when I asked for better quality, they reply we can make it cheaper, I say I will pay extra but need it better, they say we can make it cheaper ........ and Bosch still make great drill bits, and my customer couldn't afford the downtime of their tools failing. The cost of a workers downtime in china for a day, is what a trades man spends on his lunch in Australia. I also can't afford the downtime of returning a loco, or anything else, "time is money", and a trip to the hobby shop to return an item, and to pick it up, or time spent at the post office, costs we money in lost time. I will pay extra to a point for American made. The consumer laws in the USA ensure I get a good product, Americans have a service focused attitude, Americans are innovative. Americans have engineering capablities, Americans like quality (excludes fast food up sizes, and some automotive designs). China can manufacture great goods, when the plant in China is owned by the company that distibutes and sells the goods. Look at Canon, Sony, etc. It becomes a problem when companies in the US "outsource" manufacturing, or under license, etc. and leave it up to the manuafcurer to deliver an item at a price. Then we see the Chinese attitude of cheap kick in. Look at the thomas the tank toys, made under license with lead paint "it's cheap", Mattell, more lead paint, and you can wash that down with melamine in your milk, all made under license !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Would you buy chinese made Tamiflu, made under license, but by an American parent compant controlled facilty, if you had the swine flu ????.


I'II pay more for American made, it's in my long term intererest, if I want access to quality and innovation. 
I'II include the Japanese approach to quality in this, happily pay more for my Kato N scale (I know it's a g scale site). It's in my interest to let Kato know "I'II pay more if you keep making great trains".


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Very well said VEEJO, And THAT is why all my engines say ASTER on them.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm staying out of this one. I'd hope Gary To does as well. -hint, hint-

-Will


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 05/31/2009 5:39 PM
I'm staying out of this one. I'd hope Gary To does as well. -hint, hint-

-Will

Except you commented.
Removes you from the "staying out of this" line.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/30/2009 1:32 PM
I went through the initial ISO 9000 "sign up" in a few companies. There's ways to "fake it" unfortunately. That said, even "Faking it" gets you part way there, so it's not all bs. 

Regards, Greg






Gents, 

I went though an ISO process and from what I remember is that this type of standard applies to doing things ( manufacturing that is) on a consistent basis. So do I have my standards mixed up as to how it applies to QC standards? What I am saying is that a Company can be ISO registered to produce "junk". ISO says that they need to do it consistently... 


Please correct me on this. 

Regards


gg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 05/31/2009 5:16 PM
Very well said VEEJO, And THAT is why all my engines say ASTER on them.






Yes Jeff, 

Agreed, pay for what you get here. ASTER is over my head however that cute Accucraft is turning my head.... I currently have LGB, Bachman and MTH. LGB = no issues, Bachman = upgrades required, MTH = shipping standards resulting in home repairs. 


I hear that Accucraft brass does not crack....









gg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000 

http://www.praxiom.com/iso-intro.htm 

http://www.strategosinc.com/iso.htm 

especially #4 and #9. 
The Ames Super Socket fails #4, as there never were any list of requirements written or published. 
"Design input parameters shall be defined. " 

The K gearing? 
"The design project shall be planned. 

Design input parameters shall be defined. 

Design output, including crucial product characteristics shall be documented. 

Design output shall be verified to meet input requirements. 

Design changes shall be controlled. " 

Plastics? 
You choose. 
Screws? 
Your choice, again. 

"10. Inspection and Testing 

Incoming materials shall be inspected or verified before use. 

In-process inspection and testing shall be performed. 

Final inspection and testing shall be performed prior to release of finished product. 

Records of inspection and test shall be kept. " 

You're trying to tell me this stuff was inspected? 
Or even run?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/31/2009 6:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000 

http://www.praxiom.com/iso-intro.htm 

http://www.strategosinc.com/iso.htm 

especially #4 and #9. 
The Ames Super Socket fails #4, as there never were any list of requirements written or published. 
"Design input parameters shall be defined. " 

The K gearing? 
"The design project shall be planned. 

Design input parameters shall be defined. 

Design output, including crucial product characteristics shall be documented. 

Design output shall be verified to meet input requirements. 

Design changes shall be controlled. " 

Plastics? 
You choose. 
Screws? 
Your choice, again. 

"10. Inspection and Testing 

Incoming materials shall be inspected or verified before use. 

In-process inspection and testing shall be performed. 

Final inspection and testing shall be performed prior to release of finished product. 

Records of inspection and test shall be kept. " 

You're trying to tell me this stuff was inspected? 
Or even run? 




Point made and says all.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/31/2009 5:42 PM
Posted By Engineercub on 05/31/2009 5:39 PM
I'm staying out of this one. I'd hope Gary To does as well. -hint, hint-

-Will

Except you commented.
Removes you from the "staying out of this" line.


My point Curmudgeon is that there are Chinese members on this very forum and I don't think the USA patriots in our group would take kindly to them starting a thread about how crappy American cars are, as an example.







I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm trying to prevent one. I don't think anyone likes being the subject of ridicule.







I'm just suggesting people think before posting.







Once you say something you can't unsay it and who wants to have to hurt their pride by having to apologize later. 

-Will


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

So Will, are you going to be one of the first to purchase a new Hummer under their new Chinese ownership ? 
It is one thing to shell out a few thousand for a toy train and find out about their QC, it will be quite another when it's a car or truck that cost 50K or more... 
China is responsible for their own poor Quality image, and only they can fix it! Not everything from China has QC problems, but to not talk about the ones that do only hurts us all. And China is not the only country that has had to over come this poor quality image. look at the US auto industry back so many years ago. The japanese car companies came in kicked their buts. Took them about 20 years to catch up! And for GM that was too long! 
If enough pressure is applied, SOME of these companies will come around. But without the pressure of having to "eat the defects" before they see the rewards of the efforts, they will never change their ways. Why would they? 
Some companies seem to do a lot of product replacement with very little pressure from the customer, others I hear about fight every inch of the way to get out of addressing the problem. Even if you are willing and able to repair defects on your own, you should still be compensated for your efforts. This will at very least draw attention to the problem. If you give them a "free pass" they don't have to acknowledge the problem. OK, end of rant


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It's really part of the US culture, fomented by specific groups that tend to shout down any and all criticism, even that criticism proven with photos, measurements, data, by screaming "bashing!" at every turn. 
If anyone thinks this has gotten anyone anywhere, except maybe to be on the "good boy" list with specific manufacturers, you've got another think coming. 

The acceptance of garbage by the consumers is the BIG problem facing us all, as we cannot put up a solid front to the "stuff" being dumped on our shores. 

If it upsets anyone, hey, is it the truth? 

Are you saying none of this is truthful? 
Or, you just want to be a PC Cop?


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Read the topic header, thought it was an oxymoron..... 

I tried various clones of the National Resophonic Guitar as built by the good ppl at St Loius Obispo CA. Nothing comes close. I bought from the USA, where they know about this stuff, and this instrument is probably the most flawless thing I have ever owned. Straight out of the case, perfectly set up and absolutlely perfect in every respect. I spent about an hour just looking it over, wonderful. Rings like bell and looks a million dollers. 

The imports are a quarter of the price, IMO look and sound like poo. My son will be playing this (hopefully if I can get him to learn) long after they plant me....


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Is what the truth? 

Is it the truth that the Chinese lead the world in making goods cheaply? Yes. 

Is it the truth that ALL chinese goods are shoddy? No. I have a bass violin, made in China, that features top quality worksmanship and is excellent in every respect. I've been gigging wth it for years. I have a Chinese made guitar that one of the best guitars I've ever played, and I've taken it everywhere and it's been tough and reliable.



Are there aspects of Chinese culture that lead them to want to cut corners to make more money? Sure. Is this unique to China? Absolutely not. As mentioned, I rememebr American cars from the 1970s. 


Is it the truth that ALL the LS train makers have quality control problesm? Yes. 


Is that the fault of the Chinese? Hard to say. 

Chinese manufacturers face the same incentives to cut costs and increase profits that every othe rmanufacturer faces. I don't see any American LS companies telling them "we want to stand for quality, whatever the cost." Sure, consumers can refuse to buy. But the importers, like Aristo, can refuse to accept substandard quality as well. 


I've mentioned several times that I think it's offensive when it's implied that Chinese people are somehow racially incapable of making high quality stuff. My daughter is chinese born: she's also now as American as apple pie and she's got no such nonsensical racial disposition to low quality. It's offensive and racist to insist that she does, because she was born in China.


All that being said, it seems to me that a discussion of how to force manufacturers/importers to up the quality standards is a good idea.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Then, if there is a problem, what good does it do to stifle the complaints?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

None!

I'd say complain away. If we don't complain, nothing changes


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I love how this thread is going!! 

Here's something interesting for you guys. I went to Walmart on Sunday to buy two Kiddie Pools. You know the ones, plastic tubs. I was a little taken aback when I saw the price was $15 for the large one and $10 for the smaller one. Ah, what the ****, it's for Luke and Lucia (the dog), so I bought them. I forgot I was also supposed to get a plastic watering can for Luke, so as I passed K Mart, I pulled in. Found a boat and a watering can for $1.99 each. 

Got them home and started prepping them. Wasn't I shocked to see that "Made in the USA" on all 4 items. Maybe that's why they were $15 and $10, and not $12 and $8. 

That was a shocker. I thought that Walmarand K Mart were the face of Chinese manufactured goods.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Shipping cost is a large part of the cost from China. With higher fuel costs, and the fact that these inexpensive items take up a lot of volume, maybe those are reasons for good prices from the USA. 

Buy American whenever you can. 

Regards, Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Just read where a Chinese manufacturer is buying Hummer off of GM, they claim they will keep production here in the US till at least 2010, but I'd bet a dollar after that its shipped on-mass back to the PRC where they will work they're "good enough" magic on it...Oh my, that was a pretty crappy vehicle reliabliity-wise to start with, I can just imagine how it will be in 3 years.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well they sure can't do any worse than GM did with it--putting that box on a Yukon chassis--it's no wonder they went broke. 

Keith


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Well, at least they won't make their customers have to pay for it's "carbon footprint".


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Anybody else think it -- odd -- that there isn't more comments about the Red Chinese purchasing the rights/patterns/equipment to produce what was originally designed as a US military vehicle....beyond the occasional sarcastic "It is a POS, they can HAVE it!"? 

I guess maybe it just means they wasted their time buying/stealing the original plans 10 years ago? N. Korea, and Iran have it wrong, just like Japan and Germany did.... Don't attack us if you want something, because if you wait long enough, we'll sell it to you.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually Jeffrey Immelt and GE ARE selling to Iran and Iran is importing IED's to kill our troops. This admin will sell anything now. It all comes down to money, I'm sorry to say.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

You wanted change? 
You GOT change! 
You'd better believe it!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/02/2009 6:54 PM
You wanted change? 
You GOT change! 
You'd better believe it!



And a good thing it is too


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/02/2009 6:54 PM
You wanted change? 
You GOT change! 
You'd better believe it!



I have made a couple of quick comments and yes Curmudgeon yes, you are correct. I make these comments from a continental / Global perspective... North America / World wide and simply not one country within same :


We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world. However, because of that and due to high North American manufacturing costs combined with a need for "value" we have let our manufacturing base slide and move to offshore Countries with a lower cost base. 

So here we sit.... plump North Americans with a decent lifestyle... depending on low cost imports on the backs of "low cost" labor. Catch 22 I say. 

So, we need to save money and yet we bitch... So, we bitch and currently view the demise of *overpaid* employees from our North American based manufacturing Companies who effectively can not *compete* in the global market. Pure and simple. No one can argue this... 


Wake up call 101. Those in self denial well.... enjoy your dreams as they realize into unemployment. This is a very real world. 


We all know about who I refer to in this last statement and we all know that you and I are paying the bill. This be it Canada or the US of A... 


Simple.... accept the offshore crap unless you are prepared to pay for "good quality" home-built stuff. This refers to the USA, Canada, England or any other commonwealth or accredited EU country. 

*Comments flying around re "Buy America" are totally unfounded and simple in nature. This is a global economy... The USA, Canada and North America or otherwise needs to learn how to compete. 
*

We, as a continent, has "lost the competitive edge" 

Problem with this comment? 


Get over it and look in the mirror... 


*Each and every one of us has contributed to this global economic shift. *

I say no more and yes I will focus on NA or European product in the future should I have a choice. I feel the extra money is worth it. 



GG 





EDIT: I just read my monologue... WOW and 



WOOF !


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Learn to compete?
I already know how to compete.
But I don't want to work 18 hour days, eat rice and live with 3 generations of my family in one room.
Ralph


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Ralph Berg on 06/02/2009 7:46 PM
Learn to compete?
I already know how to compete.
But I don't want to work 18 hour days, eat rice and live with 3 generations of my family in one room.
Ralph





Bingo Ralph and we loose... or win... read it the way you want. 


AND I see that this is your first posting... WELCOME to the forum! 

Got Pics??????









gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/02/2009 7:26 PM
Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/02/2009 6:54 PM
You wanted change? 
You GOT change! 
You'd better believe it!

 
 
I have made a couple of quick comments and yes Curmudgeon yes, you are correct.   I make these comments from a continental / Global perspective... North America / World wide  and simply not one country within same :

 
We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world.  However, because of that and due to high North American  manufacturing costs combined with a need for "value" we have let our manufacturing base slide and move to offshore Countries with a lower cost base. 
 
So here we sit.... plump North Americans with a decent lifestyle... depending on low cost imports on the backs of "low cost" labor.  Catch 22 I say. 
 
So, we need to save money and yet we bitch...  So, we bitch and currently view the demise of *overpaid* employees from our North American based manufacturing Companies who effectively can not *compete* in the global market. Pure and simple.  No one can argue this... 

 
Wake up call 101.  Those in self denial well.... enjoy your dreams as they realize into unemployment.  This is a very real world. 

 
We all know about who I refer to in this last statement and we all know that you and I are paying the bill.   This be it Canada or the US of A... 

 
Simple.... accept the offshore crap unless you are prepared to pay for "good quality" home-built stuff.    This refers to the USA, Canada,  England or any other commonwealth or accredited EU country. 
 
*Comments flying around re "Buy America" are totally unfounded and simple in nature.  This is a global economy...  The USA, Canada and North America or otherwise needs to learn how to compete. 
*
* *
We, as a continent, has "lost the competitive edge" 
 
Problem with this comment? 

 
Get over it and look in the mirror...   

 
*Each and every one of us has contributed to this global economic shift.  *
* *
I say no more and yes I will focus on NA  or European product in the future should I have a choice.   I feel the extra money is worth it.  

 
 
GG   
 
 
 
 
 
 EDIT:   I just read my monologue... WOW and 

 
 
WOOF !


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets keep this on topic "Chinese manufacturing" We've done a pretty good job of keeping personal attacks and politics out of his. ( this is as close to a political discussion we are allowed to have hehe) 
Some replies have been "off the cuff" but bring up good points. ie: Ralph point about cheap labor. 
But if they are providing cheap labor, then why the need for what has been referred to as "quality fade" This, one would think comes from factory management not the poorly trained labor force. 
One other factor I don't remember seeing is EPA and OSHA regulations China and some others don't have to deal with.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, and woof is right. 

Another aspect is I have said for a long time our LS toys are underpriced. 

The real wake-up call is going to be when they get out of the reach of the working poor. 

Track is already going there. 

Just wait. 

Oh, and on the "clunker" bill......ever stop to think they might just make this "mandatory"? 

Anything the government decides is not safe, fuel efficient, or small enough to suit them, and you get it confiscated. 

They've done it before. 
Not with automobiles, but they've done it before, at least on state levels. 

What's next? 
Your 80-year old house you spent 35 years restoring? 
Oh, we think it might not be as efficient as your neighbor's houses. 

What if they decide those little electric motors in your toys interfere with something?


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm sure working conditions as well as living conditions affect quality.

As for quality fade...........I'm sure management overseas does the same thing the bean counters here do. Productivity and profitability must always be rising, or you are a management failure.
Ralph

BTW- Hello to everyone.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Nick, 

I should have opened up my Smilys for this one.. 

Ralph, I feel was not impressed with your new years bit... 


damm.... 


try this...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/02/2009 8:35 PM
Yeah, and woof is right. 

Another aspect is I have said for a long time our LS toys are underpriced. 

The real wake-up call is going to be when they get out of the reach of the working poor. 

Track is already going there. 

Just wait. 

Oh, and on the "clunker" bill......ever stop to think they might just make this "mandatory"? 

Anything the government decides is not safe, fuel efficient, or small enough to suit them, and you get it confiscated. 

They've done it before. 
Not with automobiles, but they've done it before, at least on state levels. 

What's next? 
Your 80-year old house you spent 35 years restoring? 
Oh, we think it might not be as efficient as your neighbor's houses. 

What if they decide those little electric motors in your toys interfere with someth




I for one am glad i have all the trains and track i could ever want, i dont envy the newbies............


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 06/02/2009 8:30 PM
Lets keep this on topic "Chinese manufacturing" We've done a pretty good job of keeping personal attacks and politics out of his. ( this is as close to a political discussion we are allowed to have hehe) 
Some replies have been "off the cuff" but bring up good points. ie: Ralph point about cheap labor. 
But if they are providing cheap labor, then why the need for what has been referred to as "quality fade" This, one would think comes from factory management not the poorly trained labor force. 
One other factor I don't remember seeing is EPA and OSHA regulations China and some others don't have to deal with. 



Actually Jeff, my comments have nothing to do with politics and everything to do with Global Economics. "EPA" and "OSHA" are really NA standards with modifications as it applies to the advanced EU and others. They are compliance standards, not cost reducing standards. 

The issue rotates around labor costs and associated benefits. This is why we can't compete. 


As for "poorly trained" welcome to the working "culture" in low cost labor markets. If you only make $2 per day what are your expectations? 

gg


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## Sourdoh (Jan 6, 2008)

It is a cultural thing. What the guy said in the review of the book is true. The Chinese revere cleverness. They revere profit. But they play fast and loose with the truth. They will prevaricate to keep from being blamed for anything. They will not "lose face" in an argument.  If a deal goes south, they will do anything to make it look like it's the other guy's fault. The part about them schmoozing you to death to get the contract is true. But you have never been ignored and shunned like when a Chinese no longer wants to do business with you. People who do successful business in China for a lengthy period of time are either geniuses of threading the needle of the Chinese business labyrinth, or they are giving up huge booty to their Chinese "partners".


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

GG, to you and I $2 per day is an insult but it may be going rate for toy assembly in those countries. I doubt that there is a shortage of workers so if you want to keep your job you better do it right. 
I just ordered a car that I assume is made in China. (MTH one gauge) The options are very limited in 1:32 rolling stock. I'll repaint n letter it and add it to my string of NKP cars I put behind my Aster NKP Berkshire. 
I buy my live steamers with a different mindset then the cars i put behind them. I buy fewer engines so I can buy what I feel is the best. But this confines me to SG models, which is fine, but if I liked NG I would have some tough decisions. 
With the cars I'm more concerned with scale then detail. They just have to look right from 10 ft at a scale 60 mph hehe


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Jeff, the MTH car that you purchased is of good quality and I have 3 CN passengers .... really nice stuff all by MTH; (not to mention their locos... ) 


Get this.... all are made in Hong Kong. Now and again understand that is location is not per sae "mainland" China however a former British Colony with rule of same passed over to China back in the late '90's if I remember correctly. Note the *potential* QA differences here in the "business culture" and associated ethics. 


Now we have "Politics" mingled in here. 


I do not need to go there as Politics has nothing to do with this thread. 


gg


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

"We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world. However, because of that and due to high North American manufacturing costs combined with a need for "value" we have let our manufacturing base slide and move to offshore Countries with a lower cost base. " 

Sorry, but I disagree that we have let our manufacturing base slide because we are an advanced society or have high labor costs. Proof? Which country is the number one exporter, as measured in dollars/Euros/whatever? It isn't the USA. It isn't China. It's Germany. A country smaller than Montana, with a population about even with California, Texas, New York and Virginia combined brings in more money from exports than the USA or China or anybody else. How do they do it? By concentrating on machine tools, aircraft, high end cars and other high value products, and superior design. And Germany isn't a total fluke. The number four country is France. (US is second, China third.) 

We (the USA, that is, I will let Canadians speak for themselves) let our manufacturing base slide because our vaunted entrepuneurs decided to go for the easy money: slash labor costs, then slash them again, then move to where there are even lower labor costs. I can't say what the labor content of a Chinese made model locomotive is, but I know that for Chinese toys in general, you calculate the labor cost at zero. If you want to estimate the manufacturing cost of a Chinese made plastic toy, you weigh it. If you know what kind of plastic its made from, you know what it costs to make.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By GG on 06/02/2009 7:26 PM
We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world. 




GG, and what is it precisely which makes you think that? Just curious, Zubi


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By astrayelmgod on 06/03/2009 1:01 AM
"We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world. However, because of that and due to high North American manufacturing costs combined with a need for "value" we have let our manufacturing base slide and move to offshore Countries with a lower cost base. " 

Sorry, but I disagree that we have let our manufacturing base slide because we are an advanced society or have high labor costs. Proof? Which country is the number one exporter, as measured in dollars/Euros/whatever? It isn't the USA. It isn't China. It's Germany. A country smaller than Montana, with a population about even with California, Texas, New York and Virginia combined brings in more money from exports than the USA or China or anybody else. How do they do it? By concentrating on machine tools, aircraft, high end cars and other high value products, and superior design. And Germany isn't a total fluke. The number four country is France. (US is second, China third.) 

We (the USA, that is, I will let Canadians speak for themselves) let our manufacturing base slide because our vaunted entrepuneurs decided to go for the easy money: slash labor costs, then slash them again, then move to where there are even lower labor costs. 







Agreed


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By astrayelmgod on 06/03/2009 1:01 AM
"We have developed into an advanced society as compared to the rest of the world. However, because of that and due to high North American manufacturing costs combined with a need for "value" we have let our manufacturing base slide and move to offshore Countries with a lower cost base. " 

Sorry, but I disagree that we have let our manufacturing base slide because we are an advanced society or have high labor costs. Proof? Which country is the number one exporter, as measured in dollars/Euros/whatever? It isn't the USA. It isn't China. It's Germany. A country smaller than Montana, with a population about even with California, Texas, New York and Virginia combined brings in more money from exports than the USA or China or anybody else. How do they do it? By concentrating on machine tools, aircraft, high end cars and other high value products, and superior design. And Germany isn't a total fluke. The number four country is France. (US is second, China third.) 

We (the USA, that is, I will let Canadians speak for themselves) let our manufacturing base slide because our vaunted entrepuneurs decided to go for the easy money: slash labor costs, then slash them again, then move to where there are even lower labor costs. I can't say what the labor content of a Chinese made model locomotive is, but I know that for Chinese toys in general, you calculate the labor cost at zero. If you want to estimate the manufacturing cost of a Chinese made plastic toy, you weigh it. If you know what kind of plastic its made from, you know what it costs to make.






I should qualify what I mean by "advanced". I use this word as it applies to the state of economic development. I see 


As for Export dollars, we must be careful here. Germany is #1 however note the high $ value of their higher tech exports Vs say China and their more commodity based exports and associated $ values. 


And a very good point on our vaunted entrepuneurs going for the easy money. You agree with me on that point. 


You agree, our NA labor costs are radically different from that in the far east thus providing the motivation for moving our manufacturing base offshore. 


As for Canada and based on what I have read, 80% of our exports go to the States in the form of natural resources etc. 


Finally and to add some levity here..... I did a radical study of all of my families' shampoos in my home. The results are staggering: All hair based products examined were manufactured in the States !


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...[ They ] revere cleverness. They revere profit. But they play fast and loose with the truth. They will prevaricate to keep from being blamed for anything. They will not "lose face" in an argument. If a deal goes south, they will do anything to make it look like it's the other guy's fault... 


Hmm, take the specific cultural reference out of that statement, and that can be any one of dozens of companies and individuals making headlines recently. Perhaps it's not cultural, but human nature? 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 06/03/2009 8:43 AM
...[ They ] revere cleverness. They revere profit. But they play fast and loose with the truth. They will prevaricate to keep from being blamed for anything. They will not "lose face" in an argument. If a deal goes south, they will do anything to make it look like it's the other guy's fault... 


Hmm, take the specific cultural reference out of that statement, and that can be any one of dozens of companies and individuals making headlines recently. Perhaps it's not cultural, but human nature? 

Later, 

K




Indeed! Anyone remember Enron? AIG?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Terms like "Truth in Advertising" and " Fit for use as intended purpose" or something like that, in the laws , keep companies here in NA in check. But it means very little to some imports. ??


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh My Gosh.....Tell Dwight we have found the orginal Feringies from Star Trek. 
N


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

To me, it is a matter of what risks are you willing to tolerate. I have a number of Ruby kits, Lehman Porters, a Shay, an Edrig -- All good value for the money. On the other hand I cringe in horror at stories of $4,000 engines that showed up with major body damage and/or running problems (out of my price range). Depending how much is on the table and how complicated the offering, I will willing to risk a little to get a litte.

I could not stomach the problems that some have had with the most expensive Accucraft. I would have to see the model running before I would take that kind of risk.

Nearly as disturbing is the vaporware -- I had a deposit on a C-19 for three years before I gave up and managed to trade it onto something else. Again, I want to know it's going to be there before I spend money. And if I miss out on the super-early-good-deal, that's the price of peace of mind.

On the other hand, there is this company in England. They speak English, respond to emails, ship promptly and make engines which run so good they are boring. You may spend a little more, but you save on antacids.

Best to all, Mike


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By livesteam5629 on 06/03/2009 8:51 AM
Oh My Gosh.....Tell Dwight we have found the orginal Feringies from Star Trek. 
N


Wanna buy my Mother's tooth sharpener?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I made it disappear...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a request, can we keep this to Chinese manufacturing of things related to trains? 

It's not "China bashing" in my opinion, but we are straying away from where we started... 

Just a request, I am not a moderator (ha ha, that would be funny wouldn't it?) 

I don't want to see a valuable thread locked. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

No problem... oops


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)




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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are a good guy Gavin, I don't care what Nick says about you! (ha ha ha) 

Seriously, thanks, seems a good time not to irritate the moderators! 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought that was the only purpose of a forum!


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

LOL this thread must bring out peoples' deepest passion for someone to create a handle just to give their point of view on this one thread. Hello Ralph and welcome to MLS.

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Engineercub on 06/03/2009 2:08 PM
LOL this thread must bring out peoples' deepest passion for someone to create a handle just to give their point of view on this one thread. Hello Ralph and welcome to MLS.

-Will


I'm in shock.

Nick is laughing


Semper is poking


Greg is being kind to me... 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Dont get use to it.







HA HA HA


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

My two bits...and I see this VERY different from most of you. We have an apparent reduction in quality now that one vendor, LGB, has left the scene. Most folks I know have always said that LGB products were high quality..sort of a benchmark for GRR products that were in the reasonable price range. With them gone, the comparative benchmark left too.

Given that, IMHO, the root cause for the quality degradation we're seeing is the same as we're seeing in other industries...managers with MBAs. The business universities represent the root cause of our quality issues. In the mid 1980s, the MBA curriculum changed a lot...emphasizing that there were only three things that a manager could manage...money, schedule, or performance. How to juggle those three factors became a science (so to speak). Making it worse was that a lot of the MBAs went to Wall Street, knowing about the money/schedule/performance tradeoffs. So all of Wall Street changed in the early 90s to emphasize that companies "make their numbers"...and to **** with patriotism, quality, and any previous corporate history of operations.


That was important because the same MBAs also began to control the banks...which loaned the money to the companies making stuff. Loans became based on the money/schedule/performance operations histories of the companies...and the companies "making their numbers". Pressures increased on all of the marketing and sales staff to increase the accuracy of their "projections"...and required auditable information from those folks...information that bank loan officers could review. For public companies, this hit em first...and hard. For privately owned companies, it hit later after the bankers decided they TOO needed to provide the same kind of information that the traded companies provided.


In all that, a lot of the privacy of a private company evaporated...and they too began to hire the MBAs that knew how to play the money/schedule/performance tradeoff game. We saw GRR companies fail because they couldn't make the transition to provide all that private data....least I think so. I have no proof...but when companies that make good product at that time, like Delton, go bust...there's a banker involved in there somewhere...or a very ornery owner of the company...someone who personally couldn't make the "openness" transition.


Now given that the quality leader, LGB, went poof, the management of the competing companies has a HUGE incentive to "make their numbers" by messing with the performance part of the tradeoff...and quality is the easiest of the performance perameters to mess with. Combine this MBA tendency with the appearance of ISO 9000 and it gets worse. ISO 9000 is the latest rendition of a development process in which testing is eliminated as a production step. This all started with Deming...using statistics to improve industry processes. But the key discriminator of ISO 9000 from earlier processes was the incorporation of reviews and audits all through development because in the 80s folks finally determined that you can't test quality in. 


So now we have a situation where there's NO high quality competitor to compete with...and a process where the details on how to engineer and produce a product don't involve testing of the end article. Gone are first article tests. Gone are operational tests. It's just "bring it to market" and "make their numbers".


Now, combine that with the situation in the 80s and 90s and 00s we saw of massively shifting operations abroad...and you have the situation we have now. First, the US company outsources some of the parts for his GRR device. You know, parts are cheaper to import than completed goods. Then, you are pressed more by the bankers to make more profit....so you outsource production. Even LGB did this. And, it can be done more easily because Wall Street and the banks can now help you outsource...with money...because labor is SOOOOo much cheaper in Taiwan/VietNam/PRC...especially the PRC where the government decides to Hong Kongize business a bunch...meaning state funded (via banks) and quasi-privately owned.


And THAT works so good...the next step is to outsource the design work. I mean, US universities have been educating Chinese kids for years...and the population of Chinese with IQs above 120 exceeds the population of the US....so that's a good deal too...cause they're cheaper as well. What's left is a hollow GRR company...that does importing, marketing, distribution, and maintenance...not exactly the foundation of profit. Or, we have a "US company" that is really JUST a marketing, distribution, maintenance wing of a Chinese company...and they're not a US company at all.


And that's where we are now. The marketeers don't have stiff competition on a quality basis anymore...at the price point of their products. LGB is gone...remember. Distribution is simplified because of the internet...look at all the drop and ship hobby shops we have now. You buy something from your LHS and it's shipped right from Aristo....or Bachmann...or USA Trains. That means distribution expertise is going away too...and soon, you'll get your order direct from China. Lastly, we have servicing...if that even exists anymore. Spare parts do NOT seem to be made anymore...ask anyone who owns the Bachmann K-27. Servicing seems to be going towards easter egging...versus having a fixit shop filled with parts.

IMHO, the US company that seems to have a hold on how to do it right is one that didn't have to compete with LGB....Accucraft. Accucraft stuff IS made in China and they seem to do a good job at the whole quality thing. I'm not sure about the schedule part...but quality is good. Some will say that is because their stuff costs so much. Frankly, I think you're paying the market prices for that level of quality...and the reason that there's is high quality has to do with their owner making FREQUENT trips to China and getting INTO whatever production process is being used...ISO 9000 or not...but likely a variant of it. Frequently means often more than once a month...and that kind of attention to detail means you normally get what you want because you're PART of the production process....not just someone at the end of line buying the stuff.


So...what we're seeing is the result of our business universities IMHO...and the holy grail of "making the numbers"...and to **** with everything else. The Global Economy is real...and the MBAs invented it...for their good, not ours.


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## Sourdoh (Jan 6, 2008)

I agree with you 100% Mike. I think we made our own bed, and now that the mattress is lumpy we are blaming the people we paid to make it because we were too lazy to make it ourselves. But, I still stand by my assessment of the problems dealing with the Chinese business/cultural mentality.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Mike, 

You have explained all and summarized everything. No arguments here ! 


We have created our own problems. 


Thanks for the input. 


gg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Mike you hit the nail right on the head. Most people are assigning blame to one point because of prejudice or 'patriotism' whatever you want to call it, but there's much more to the story. Good response. 

-Will


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Sourdoh on 06/03/2009 4:59 PM
I agree with you 100% Mike. I think we made our own bed, and now that the mattress is lumpy we are blaming the people we paid to make it because we were too lazy to make it ourselves. But, I still stand by my assessment of the problems dealing with the Chinese business/cultural mentality.

I gotta tell ya...I'm not sure WE made this bed. I frankly don't think many Americans would have supported the complete tear down of our industrial capability so that some banker, broker, hedge fund investor, Wall Street mogul, or investment adviser could get his butt into the money stream of companies in such a way where he could effectively "direct" their operations. That's what's happened. Private companies have HUGE issues trying to raise capital to build their next GRR model car or locomotive...and all those aforementioned butt heads now control that flow of investment capital. I'm used to venture capitalists insisting on this position but NOT for regular banks or brokerage houses that sell the stock. When companies use venture capital (normally for higher risk, higher potential return projects), companies NORMALLY must accept the venture capitalist's "help". NOW, we're in a situation where some company just needs a short term loan to buy material...and the banks are asking him to improve the way he produces things as a condition for the loan...so they can loan more money in the near future to pay for their suggested improvement. IMHO...that's crap.


Like I said...this is NOT something the average American recognized...or recognizes today...so I'm not sure WE made this happen. I'm definitely seeing the banking/investment segment of our economy as the THEM in the us vs. them...and not a lot of ways to fix this. Based on all this bailout stuff going on, you can sure see that the banks/investment houses have bought the politicians BETTER than the unions or the corporations. I mean...follow the damn money...it's going to the banks. The GM bailout is chump change.


As for Chinese businesses...well, they ARE different. I've not heard of many successful long term US/Chinese business relationships that don't require the services of an intermediary. Many times, that is to pay what we'd call bribes to Chinese officials...but to the Chinese, those are costs of doing business....just a different culture....not right, not wrong. They relationships between US and Chinese companies is certainly VERY different than those between US companies and the companies of other Asian nations. Culture counts in business...and we need to learn the best way to deal with the new PRC business culture...especially if we are to get better quality train products.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Like I said...this is NOT something the average American recognized...or recognizes today...so I'm not sure WE made this happen. 



Mike, the average American, North American or otherwise was unaware. I agree with your comment. The fact remains is that these MBA's and corporate citizens that we all know are home based regardless of country of origin were / are involved. So in a pleuralistic society does this not constitute a "we" ? Yes "we" and as a result are "we" culpable? 

This comment does not reflect on any one country however I will say that this concept can be reflected in any Capitalistic/free enterprising society regardless of location or country. 

Woof. 

gg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/03/2009 7:28 PM
Like I said...this is NOT something the average American recognized...or recognizes today...so I'm not sure WE made this happen. 



Mike, the average American, North American or otherwise was unaware. I agree with your comment. The fact remains is that these MBA's and corporate citizens that we all know are home based regardless of country of origin were / are involved. So in a pleuralistic society does this not constitute a "we" ? Yes "we" and as a result are "we" culpable? 

This comment does not reflect on any one country however I will say that this concept can be reflected in any Capitalistic/free enterprising society regardless of location or country. 

Woof. 

gg 





I did misspeak. My opinion is NOT based on America...or Americans. I shouldn't have said that in my last post (above). These MBAs exist in all the societies and cultures...and work in all economies I think. I mean, a good deal of the Chinese students in our universitys are studying business...they're not all in our engineering schools. This is NOT a US vs China thing IMHO. It's not about countries and national interests. It's about business and the "right" way to manage...and I don't like the current technique...the money/schedule/performance terms as the basis for loans.

And, while there are those that looks at China as a Communist country, my advice is to try to change that view. While the political infrastructure of the PRC is the Marxist form of socialism (communism), the way they behave economically on an international basis is far more like the West when it comes to companies and contracts. What's different is that choose to NOT enforce many of the intellectural property laws...so there's a big hole in their approach to making business agreements. Another way to say that is that the PRC may have two business models...the external one (quasi-Western) ...and an internal one (Chinese)...and that's OK with me.

One last comment...the behavior we're complaining about, the lower quality, is the result of completely rational decisions being made by these production companies. We KNOW it is going to happen. It's predictable. If you want to do something, the wrong thing to do is get all upset and REACT verbally to the problem. It's far more advisable to deal with these rational decisions...and shop elsewhere. A business decline in those manufacturers that produce low quality products is WAY MORE persuasive in getting them to improve quality than bitching. 

For me, that means I'm going to avoid those companies that sell the problematic equipment or track...and buy (and pay more) the stuff that has the quality that I'm interested in.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to worry, when they start lobbing nukes around over there they won't be worried about the QC of toy trains....... hehe I'm guessing the don't make airplanes in China.....


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Mike, no problems with your thought patterns and yes, some countries like to re-write international business law for their own convenience. Think Music and centrifugal pumps from an industrial perspective. 

As for quality. When certain areas of the far east get tied up with local conflict, there will be no time for ISO or QA concepts. Lead blankets will be in fashion. 


This is but a matter of time. Short term let the buyer beware as to where they source their goods. 


gg


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

One other factor I don't remember seeing is EPA and OSHA regulations China and some others don't have to deal with.

That is a great point Jeff. I get so tired how the rest of the world does not call China out on their massive pollution of the environment. Remember how at the Olympics they had their "_Dog and pony show _" to hide the air that you can cut with a knife. If they had our EPA and OSHA breathing down their necks like American companies do prices would be much higher even with their cheap labor. If America could pollute like China (and I am not saying that we should) we could compete much better. With China, it is not a fair playing field. They get away with Government (forced) sponsored labor, the worst pollution since Saddam Insane torched his oil fields, changing product standards (unless the American company pays to have QC folks there watching), and a host of other shady practices that are not allowed in other major industrialized Nations.

This is in no way attacking "_Chinese born naturalized Americans _". 98% of all Americans are from somewhere else. I am _"German/Czech_ " ancestry. I do not consider myself either, I am an American......first, last and otherwise. And I do not blame the people living in China for the lack of care in these issues. It's their "_RED" _Government to blame.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Lobbing nukes ... such an outdated phrase.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Lobbing nukes ... such an outdated phrase.

You think so?? Tell that to Iran and North Korea.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

We live in a world of disbelief and self denial. The cold war back then is now here again. The players are different however. 


However run by rogue states. We fail to realize that the nuclear clock is very close to midnight. 

The issue is not a direct hit for many people, just global contamination of our food and water supply by the egotistical and unpredictable few with a chip on their shoulder. 

PS: we are off track here however one could say that turmoil in the far east means no trains for the West.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By Engineercub on 06/03/2009 2:08 PM
LOL this thread must bring out peoples' deepest passion for someone to create a handle just to give their point of view on this one thread. Hello Ralph and welcome to MLS.

-Will



Thanks, Will.
Although I did join MLS to voice my opinion, I don't do "handles".
I stand behind my opinion........with my real name.
The truth is, many of these Chinese made products are not inexpensive. We are not talking about $39.99 toy locomotives.
There is a huge markup somewhere between the manufacturer in China and the consumer around the world.
If Hartland can make a reasonably priced locomotive of reasonable quality, others should be able to do so.
If they can't get it done in China.......they need to look elsewhere.
I have 4 Chinese made locomotives. 3 of the 4 have needed major repair work after very little use.
I have one American made locomotive. It has needed no repairs.
Although it limits my choices, I won't be making the Chinese mistake again.
Ralph


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Two points here. First , some of the highest quality computer boarda and parts are made in China. However,in many cases, the company is not Chinese, but rather a committment hads been made to put folks on the ground in the factory to ensure designs are followed and specifications met. They can do it- when held to the fire. If the company is Chinese, they have learned they must meet a set of standards that exist in that industry in order to BE iin that industry.
Second, Accucraft is sort of the reverse case that proves the point. The American company - Accucraft- owns the factory in Shanghai. Exactly opposite of the KAder/Bach situtation. The American folks behind Accucraft are former Hewlett-Packard employess and products of American engineering education.

When LGB first went to China to produce stuff cheaper, because American customers insisted on lower prices/quality be da**ed, The German engineers were astounded to learn that China had no concept or understanding of the Resin plastic molding Lgb used , and the first product had to be produced using resins brought in by ship. This is the reason an LGB loco when dropped will usually bounce back up and have no damage where as an Aristo or similar becomes shrapnel when dropped.
The chinese wanted to mold the LGB stuff the Chinese way , not the German way. But of course, most Americans will not pay for the German way...but every Christmas some new junk toy train set appears and thousands are sold, at tremendous "bargain" prices of say 99.00, and lots of postings appear on MLS and elsewhere saying how great it is. $99.00 for something that likely cost less than 10.00 to produce, fails in a few weeks if that , and sours yet another family or kid on Garden railroading. Vote with your wallett. Make them produce worthwhile stuff Get three very good , running locos instead of 23 very marginal or poorly performing models

I spent more that 25 years working in international electronics- Japan. and China. When going to Taipei or Shanghai, you just have to understand that up until you visit, everything you think you know is wrong, and you will soon be reducated in the Chinese method of contracts, quality control , parts supply , and guarantees.

There is a large freeway interchange in Taipei that was rebuilt at least three times in the 80's, each time for substandard concrete, each contractor shaving the specs to see what he could get away with. Before wireless phones took over, the phone network in winter was not used as much, due to low quality transmission since everything always got wet in the winter rains. You literally could not understand conversations sometimes due to the high noise level in the lines.
My favorite story of all is this: Scene: conference room in office building on third floor. Walkway between this building and next on this level has swinging glass /aluminum doors for weather . hinge on the door is broken, so when the door swings closed it does not seal. The solution was drill a hole in theframe and stick a huge bolt through , with a rope attached, Each person comes through the door, and grabs ther rope to lift up the sagging door and slam it closed. It worked, but the best part was there were about 6 holes in the frame. in other words, as the stress builds from each slam, the aluminum eventually fails and the bolt pulls through, so drill another hole, and reattach. Fix the hinge?, no that would be too simple and look just like a quality improvement.The door was like that for years, and this was an engineering company.

I could go on anecdotally like this for hours, China was fun....

Jonathan/EMW


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 06/03/2009 8:35 PM
Lobbing nukes ... such an outdated phrase.

You think so??  Tell that to Iran and North Korea.


If nukes are deliverd in the near future it will be by fishing boats or taxies. No one is very good at "lobbing."


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By K27_463 on 06/03/2009 10:03 PM

Second, Accucraft is sort of the reverse case that proves the point. The American company - Accucraft- owns the factory in Shanghai. Exactly opposite of the KAder/Bach situtation. The American folks behind Accucraft are former Hewlett-Packard employess and products of American engineering education.

Jonathan/EMW



Very interesting...and no wonder their stuff is high quality.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

If nukes are delivered in the near future it will be by fishing boats or taxies. No one is very good at "lobbing."

Oh really...........................North Korea sure could " _lob _" one into South Korea and Iran sure would like to " _lob_ " one into Israel. "_Lobbing_ " no longer has to be a intercontinental ballistic missel. But not to worry, our new President is going to "_CHANGE _" all these world problems.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's try and limit this to train-related discussion gents and keep politics and administrations, etc. out of it. You all know the rules.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Similar to Accucraft, Piko is another company who has had some success producing quality product in China--and like Accucraft-they opened their OWN factory so they can control it 100%. I believe they use it to build the smaller scale trains, which are more labour intensive, and apparently their large scale stuff is still built in Europe because the labour required is minimal. One thing I'd like to see happen (and I've been harping about this for years) is for the manufacturers to offer kits--let US put them together! 

Keith


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Right on Mikey. When making the number became the only important object of a company, the comitment to quality and customer service went out the window.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I worked in the Test Equipment department allmost all of my working life. We designed the test equipment that was used to test the product we sold, so we were perceived as a totally overhead cost and often had to prove our worth to the company. 

Over and over again we proved with the numbers that it was cheaper to test at every step of the manufacturing process. Test components as they come in the door, test them just before they are put into the lowest level assembly (circuit cards, etc.) then test the lowest level assembly before they are put into the next level (modules, etc.) and then test the modules before they are put into the final product and test the final product before it goes to the customer. Even having a test facility at the customer's (larger ones) site had value! (You really don't want to have to replace a radio in a fighter jet at 50,000 feet!)

Some of the testing we did required human interaction... we built radios and they require "tuning" (adjusting variable capacitors and inductors) to get the radio to operate at the designed frequencies, but we always had some MBA telling the Engineering groups to design stuff so that testing was not needed and then they would start to eliminate Production Test stages arbitrarily.

If you skipped any of those test steps the cost of finding a bad component and replacing that component exceeded the cost of testing all the good components that the bean counters then said it had been a waste of time to test. 

That means the cost to the company's bottom line for just one bad unit in the customer's hands exceeded all the cost of testing all the units the customer had in total. 

And this does not include the cost of the company's good name and repeat business lost due to an angry customer.

The MBA's never cared about angry customers but when the unit costs went UP after they had eliminated incremental test steps they were always at a loss to explain it. So they would have us do a study to show where the costs had gone up and where they had gone down and although incremental stage testing had been eliminated, the cost of repairing a unit in "final test" or in the customer's hands had skyrocketed.

This would then cause incremental testing to be reinstated until the next batch of new MBA's showed up and then it would start all over again... about every 5 years as I remember it.

Unfortunately, the last 5 years of my working in that department it was taken over by MBA's that did not understand the need for the studies to prove the need for their own existance! So I retired! Praise God, I am so HAPPY!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06/04/2009 1:54 PM
If you skipped any of those test steps the cost of finding a bad component and replacing that component exceeded the cost of testing all the good components that the bean counters then said it had been a waste of time to test. 

That means the cost to the company's bottom line for just one bad unit in the customer's hands exceeded all the cost of testing all the units the customer had in total. 

And this does not include the cost of the company's good name and repeat business lost due to an angry customer.







Anyone care to guess how much this very scenario is costing Bachmann/Kader in gold and loyalty after two disasterous releases? (or is that 3)?

What I love (hate) is that the MBAs are too frakking convinced in their own infoulability that they cannot concieve that it's their very own stupid policies that are the root cause when brown mater hits the fan. Why isnt anyone blaming the many Universities that are teaching this craptacularness in the first place...


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06/04/2009 3:51 PM
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06/04/2009 1:54 PM
If you skipped any of those test steps the cost of finding a bad component and replacing that component exceeded the cost of testing all the good components that the bean counters then said it had been a waste of time to test. 

That means the cost to the company's bottom line for just one bad unit in the customer's hands exceeded all the cost of testing all the units the customer had in total. 

And this does not include the cost of the company's good name and repeat business lost due to an angry customer.







Anyone care to guess how much this very scenario is costing Bachmann/Kader in gold and loyalty after two disasterous releases? (or is that 3)?

What I love (hate) is that the MBAs are too frakking convinced in their own infoulability that they cannot concieve that it's their very own stupid policies that are the root cause when brown mater hits the fan. Why isnt anyone blaming the many Universities that are teaching this craptacularness in the first place...



I forgot to mention the manager that wanted us to find a way to test only the bad components to save money by not testing the good ones. I was so stunned I could not even laugh at him. Even after explaining that testing is what let us find the bad components he still wanted us to "look into it".


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Semper,
are you sure you were in a job and not a comic strip? Sure reads like Dilbert! lol


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Being a 25 year (at least) Dilbert fan...THIS is exactly what the whole comic strip is about. MBAs vs engineers...


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Chrisp (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello,

Not all MBAs are bad - it's just as often that cost accountants or those without advanced degrees make these sort of ill-informed decidions that impact product quality. I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread that companies that take short cuts with product quality to improve margins ultimately reap what they sow, regardless of country (GM and Chrysler are not Chinese companies) or how many MBAs they employ.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chrisp on 06/04/2009 5:10 PM
Hello,

Not all MBAs are bad - it's just as often that cost accountants or those without advanced degrees make these sort of ill-informed decidions that impact product quality. I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread that companies that take short cuts with product quality to improve margins ultimately reap what they sow, regardless of country (GM and Chrysler are not Chinese companies) or how many MBAs they employ.


Please don't take my use of the term MBA too literally. What I mean are "professionally trained" business managers. While the money/schedule/performance "science" did actually get invented in the graduate business schools where MBAs and PhD in Business are granted...that was so long ago that the concept is fundamental in business operations globally now...even for those that have NOT been professionally trained. I lump cost accountants into this mix of folks as that is a field in business management, as is sales, marketing, management, human relations, etc.

I also wouldn't want to characterize all MBAs as bad...they're the THEM though in many of these quality discussions. We be the us in the us vs. them issue...the consumer. My point is that to get the products we want, when quality seems to be slipping, we need to get THEM to recognize that there's a problem. Remember, they're hitting their numbers...so there's no problem in their mind. IMHO, getting them to recognize that there is a probem is NOT accomplished by complaining since complaining doesn't seem to be part of the money/schedule/performance science they adhere to....but NOT buying stuff effects the money part of their science...and they DO understand that.


I'll be at the BTS this weekend...and one of my tasks is to go to a certain manufacture's rep there and tell them that I love the look of their stuff, but that I won't be buying anymore because their quality is way down. I'm not going to complain. I'm just going to tell them what I'm going to do. Then, I'm gonna do it.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike. 

Do you really think the rep of the Company in question will have the Cajones to pass on your position to those who need to hear it???


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Correct Tony, 

Mike, your message will be forgotten in 15 minutes. 

#'s say everything, when the Company see Sales #'s dropping like a rock then they will start scratching their heads. 


gg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/04/2009 5:54 PM
Mike. 

Do you really think the rep of the Company in question will have the Cajones to pass on your position to those who need to hear it???

Who cares? I know they can read...and all the quality issues have been bashed to death on the boards. I'm just gonna tell em that they lost one customer...me...till things improve. I've got no axe to grind here, but I figure it won't hurt to tell them what I'm planning on doing.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I have often wondered what it means when folks say that a manufacturer "owns" their own Company in China?? In the business that I am in, the composite baseball bat companies have set up shop in China to the tune of millions of dollars. I realize that with the money that the U.S. owes China there is no way that they would want to throw us out. (right now anyway) However, we live in a strange world. To believe that a foreign company _actually owns_ a manufacturing facility on China's soil would be like believing in the tooth fairy. They could take it over in a minute if they wanted too.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Quote....Mike, your message will be forgotten in 15 minutes.

*I think it has been forgotten already, but HISTORY will be the judge..........







*


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 06/04/2009 6:32 PM
Correct Tony, 

Mike, your message will be forgotten in 15 minutes. 

#'s say everything, when the Company see Sales #'s dropping like a rock then they will start scratching their heads. 


gg 




...........and then blame everyone else but themselves.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06/04/2009 4:36 PM
Semper,
are you sure you were in a job and not a comic strip? Sure reads like Dilbert! lol



The last few years were an utter nightmare!









Another example. The group I was in for MANY years was the rightful definition of a "Team". We all knew each other's strengths and we were all more than willing to help any other member with what ever they needed. IT WAS WONDERFUL!









Then the old managers began to retire. New ones came in. A new CEO came in that did not come up through the Engineering ranks.









One of the higher ups declared that the Test Department was "too cohesive" and we were to be broken up to spread the workforce more equitably (I never understood that!). New managers came in. Some were NEVER "introduced" to the people that were ultimately working for them! With lots of new people taking the places of others that were being dispersed it was hard to find help with problems. 

I was assigned a project (which came with a schedule and budget that I had NO say so about) and was deep in it when I ran into a problem that I knew I could not figure out given the schedule and budget. I checked with the new "team" (note the lower case first letter!) and could not find anyone that had any idea of how to help or would not help even if they did know something about it. 

I was forced to go to my manager and ask for his help finding help with the problem. It must be noted that I would NOT have gone to him if I didn't need help. If I could figure out the solution to the problem or if I could have found someone that could have, he would never have known that the problem existed (actually, it never would have existed!) I explained to him the problem and said I needed someone to be assigned to help me. (I knew that without an "assignment" from him the new members that I suspected of having expertise in the subject would not offer help at all.)

He thought for just a few seconds, staring off at the wall and then said. "Well, everybody is awfully busy." (A lie and I knew it!) He thought a bit more and then said, "Well, I guess I'll have to assign someone." A few seconds later he said, "I'll assign YOU."

I stood there a moment and then said, "I understand that management here is of the opinion that 'anybody can do any job', right?" 

He said, "Yes!" with a big bright smile.

I said, "Okay, right now I am the CEO. Your Fired!" and I turned and walked out of his office.

Unfortunately, I disproved the theory that anybody can do any job, because he was still there when I retired a few months later. Oh, and also, I stopped all work on that project and as far as I know it is still not done.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Went to buy a 1 gallon garden sprayer yesterday. Tired of pulling weeds on the GRR. 
Two brands were available. One had a "T" handle and was $17.99. One had a "loop" handle and was $20.99. 
I paid the extra and bought the sprayer with the loop handle. It is easier for me to carry. 

T-handle is a Gilmore. Made in USA for $17.99. 
Turns out the "loop" handle is made in China, for $20.99. 

Just because they are making these products in Chana, does not mean YOU are paying less for them. 
This applies to LS trains as well. 
Ralph


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 06/04/2009 6:38 PM
Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/04/2009 5:54 PM
Mike. 

Do you really think the rep of the Company in question will have the Cajones to pass on your position to those who need to hear it???

Who cares? I know they can read...and all the quality issues have been bashed to death on the boards. I'm just gonna tell em that they lost one customer...me...till things improve. I've got no axe to grind here, but I figure it won't hurt to tell them what I'm planning on doing.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One of the real eye-openers for me in all of this was when I asked a certain VP of Marketing if he had been following certain discussions on specific forums......and his response (as the VP of Marketing, no less), was that he ONLY concerned himself with THEIR company forum.
Judas H. Priest.

Then, a short time later, we get some "consultant" who copies parts of what he wants them to read and forwards it to them......not the entire comment, mind you, and especially not HIS involvement in the thread, but an obvious attempt to direct company opinion and to "strengthen" his position.

Why say this?

If you are counting on them "reading" the forums to gain some minor degree of knowledge, forget it.


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06/04/2009 4:28 PM

I forgot to mention the manager that wanted us to find a way to test only the bad components to save money by not testing the good ones. I was so stunned I could not even laugh at him. Even after explaining that testing is what let us find the bad components he still wanted us to "look into it". 

That reminds me of the (perhaps apochraphyl) story of the new grad MBA working on the car czar's staff who, when informed of certain Laws of Physics that required certain manufacturing processes be done in a certain manner, said, "Just who wrote these 'Laws of Physics? Was it someone in the last administration? I work for a guy who reports to a guy who can repeal these 'Laws of Physics' with a stroke of a pen. We can just forget about those 'Laws of Physics.' "


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Obviously, then, for those of you that really care about a particular company or product line or just Large Scale Trains in general, if you have a gripe, airing it here only assuages your ego and makes you feel a bit better, but you are "preachin' to the choir". If you really want to see changes...

Write a courteous letter to the President/CEO/Majority Stock Holder/"chief cook and bottle washer" of whatever company is your passion and tell them how you feel about it. No threats, no anger, no malevolence, just state facts as you understand them and state what you'd like to see being done. 

It would not hurt to provide a link directly to a particular thread this web site or even multiple threads on multiple web sites. Cite what you think it relevant to your case, point out what you feel is important, but don't point out what you feel are the errors in other's thinking. Just state your case with supporting evidence.

Don't attempt to work your way up from the janitor to the engineering department. Go directly to the TOP and let it trickle down.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Semper, you are too logical. 

gg


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Without getting stuffy about it, and if ANYBODY is in the slightest bit interested, I think it's time to point out that Hong Kong was not 'passed over to China' as one poster states.

Hong Kong was handed BACK to China after the hundred year agreement was reached in July 1997. Beginning as a trading port, Hong Kong became a crown colony and from 1983 onwards a dependent territory of the United Kingdom in 1842, and remained so until its transfer of sovereignty to the PRC in 1997

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 06/03/2009 8:08 PM
Not to worry, when they start lobbing nukes around over there they won't be worried about the QC of toy trains....... hehe I'm guessing the don't make airplanes in China..... 


Sadly, you are wrong. The PRC has the second largest aerospace manufacturing set-up on earth. They build licenced versions of the very latest Russian designs in fast jet fighters, and the world knows how good THEY are. Just up the way from where AccuCraft are said to make their steam trains and so on is the location of WuHu Air Base, one of the largest and busiest in that part of the PRC, and home to a couple of FLANKER regiments.

Although I realise that that Americans are not usually impressed by numbers, especially of military equipment, it might be time to point out that each regiment has 96 airplanes in it, and this is just one regional air base....

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

There'll never be a nuclear war, it's bad for business and business runs the world....


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Why nuke when you just foreclose ??????


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

speaking of "foreclose" Did ya hear Obama's plan is helping less then 5% of those in need of financial help with mortgages.... He doesn't know this because he's out apologizing for our actions over the past 200 years... hehe 
Tac, are you saying we can ignore all these counties developing nukes? We do have other thing to spend money on... like trains!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

A lot of people want to beat the drum for war with China--silly, I think. Our economic interests are too closely aligned. 


Obama's only helped 5% in the month or so since the bill passed?


How many did W. help? he he


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We needed politics in this thread?

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Do we need politics in any thread?


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

This is the public forum. This is the forum to air it out. I don't mind when people talk politics whether it agrees with my side or not. I say, let freedom ring and the freedom to speak as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I personally do not think so, but it is against forum rules last time I checked. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ah, but Dwight is still driving home (bit more than 2.5 hours), so, while the Dwight's away, the catfish will play......loose, eh?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote, that was since policy was past. As was reported the qualifications a too restrictive?? But we can't fix that here. 
Greg, good photo..hehe


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I used to use it on the Aristo forum. Many topics were hijacked or went sideways. I bring it out on special occasions ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm back home, and it's over six hours, not 2-1/2.  Actually, it took me 6-1/2 down and almost exactly six back. Hit traffic on 210 on the way down and took almost an hour to go 15 miles.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Greg said HIS trip was 2-1/2 hours.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I just MISSED seeing you by thirty minutes today. Bummer! Went over to the Marriott to see Paul and Mary Burch and John Corradini as they were leaving. Went back to the steam track and JJ said you had just left. I did finally meet-up with Tommy Mejia and his wife.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Read the book already, then contribute something useful to the topic at hand.


Posted By Dwight Ennis on 06/04/2009 7:52 AM
Let's try and limit this to train-related discussion gents and keep politics and administrations, etc. out of it. You all know the rules.

Seems as if the warning has not been abate and given the topic has been worn thin and not to going away might be best to close this thread.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Really sorry I missed you Gary! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif I left a little earlier this year (I usually leave around 2) because I wanted to get home a little earlier. I almost extended my stay one more night because I REALLY didn't want to do the drive home yesterday, but if I had, I wouldn't have wanted to do it today either. hehehe Every year the drive gets a little harder.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr Moderators. 
Please don't let this site fall into the trap of allowing potentially disruptive discussions on politics, religion and sex. 
All that will happen will be the creation of hate and rancour. 

*For crying out loud, this is a train site. Not a political discussion forum.*


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

What is it about "no politics" that people can't understand? This thread is history.


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