# my first G scale layout in my classroom need some help



## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

im starting my 1st g scale layout.... in my classroom. i teach government/economics/entrepreneurship all combined. i thought with the coming of high speed rail this would create intrest in the topic. im putting the western pacific california zepher on the track so we can have a compare and contrast with the high speed rail idea. what do you guys think? i have started the track building should be done by the start of school. if any of you guys have any information about the zepher or high speed rail ill take them. thanks gentlemen for helping me out.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm assuming since you teach "government/economics/entrepreneurship all combined" then you're already quite versed on the cost/benefit arguments and traffic/population density requirements to make high speed rail even viable. 

And perhaps the more obvious NIMBY objections as well. (Face it, building a new dedicated RoW through high population and/or affluent areas is a REALLY big problem, even repurposing an old one is not without major hurdles) 

Plus the cultural love affair we have with the automobile that often makes such a project iffy, even when all the other economic factors favor it!... 

Plus our irrational insistence on private funding (and local property taxes!) for most railroads, while we heavily subsidize nearly every other form of transportation... 

And the objections (some valid, others not so much) against spending ANY public monies on so-called "pork projects" 

And then there is the strange management mindset that you can somehow raise revenues by cutting services.......... 

From what I can tell, about the only thing high speed rail has going for it right now is the flying public is finally getting tired enough of being treated like cattle to consider a change. 

Pretty sad.


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

Yes thanks for that i am studying the high speed rail business plan these days planing to have some guest speakers and try to give both sides of the argument... and really i just need people like you guys ....who know some stuff on trains past and present to help .... this layout is like a billboard including facts going all around the track it self ...if i could figured out how to put pictures on here ill put them up...soon


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

I am trying to add some pictures but i dont know how to do it. Do i need to pay for the right to do that ?


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

You don't need to be a first class member (paid member) to post pictures but it is easier (I guess it's easier, I've never been a member but I think I will join soon). The photos do need to be on a web site, like Flickr or something similar. Click on the chain link at the top of the message area when you are composing a message and copy the link to the photo. 
 

Here is one I just added that way.
Bob


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Are you somewhere in California? There are many supporters of increase quantity and quality of rail passenger service who are not supporters of HSR . You gotta learn to crawl before you try to run.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

One more thought. The CZ was a nice train, but it wasn't fast or direct. It would be incorrect to draw conclusions from its operation and apply it to any other service, particularly one which is planned to be straight, direct, fast, and frequent. 

Just a thought.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Is the discussion about the WESTERN PACIFIC California Zephyr, or the AMTRAK California Zephyr? Strikes me that comparing the WP to current high speed rail projects is a bit "apples & oranges", when one could use the current Amtrak example. 

What caught me is the phrase: "The CZ was a nice train". Since I currently hold a paid ticket for the Amtrak CZ in early October, I don't want to think that the CZ was a nice train. 

JackM


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

yeah really either one ... students do well comparing things that are not to much the same .... im using CZ because its the most celebrated at least from what i can remember. plus the CZ is at disneyland giving it more realism for them. anyway i live in central california by fresno and teach in high school near there. Most people i know hate the HSR idea because they are farmers, but i think this HSR is going to be pushed through anyway. so i want them up on the idea since we will be paying for it for awhile heck some of these kids could be working for HSR too.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

You've now put the exclamation point on the whole HSR argument. 

Who paid for the Transcontinental Railroad, indeed, all of the railroads that the California Zephyr rode on? 

Robert


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Please don't think that I don't think Amtrak's Zephyr is an inferior product. In many ways it is superior to WP's Zephyr AND the more direct City of San Francisco. It's just that they are not, and were not, ever designed to be HSR. With a five hour trip from Sacramento to Reno, today's Zephyr is just "strolling speed rail" climbing over the Sierra. But then, it's primarily 19th Century engineering. 

I'll be on Amtrak's version next week going to Denver. It will be my second trip to Denver on the California Zephyr is two months, and about the fourth such trip in the last two. It's just an overnight trip from Sacramento, and surely beats driving across eastern Nevada and Utah -- not that there's anything REALLY wrong with those areas or the people who live in them. 

I assumed that "sqor" was talking about WP's Zephr.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Jack, sqor said he was using the WP Zephyr as is comparison. You'll like the California Zephyr. I do, I ride it frequently. Will do so next week!


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Sqor, while you are teaching about high speed rail, I hope you do a cost comparison of all means of transportation. Trains magazine several years ago had a highway/airport/rail transit cost comparison. The bottom line was that no public transportation pays for itself. They all rely on tax dollars to exist. Unfortunately, while highway and airports get billions of dollars, Amtrak has to settle on a measly 5 cents on the dollar. High speed rail is no exception. You look at high speed rail from Europe to Japan to China and without the influx of taxpayer dollars, it would not exist. As passionate as I am about trains, they all lose money every year. The only question is how much do we as taxpayers want to do without in order for the government to fund all of these amenities? Our founding fathers fought a revolution over 1% taxes.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Sqor...I enjoyed watching your video the other day. Good luck with your project and hope you get that 20 amp transformer. I'll be at the coast for a few days letting the newly deposited dirt settle on an area of phase two of my Redwood Creek and Tallulah Ridge RR.

Richard


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

to Ron thank you: i have been studing the business plan of high speed rail .... ive also put the most important points all around the track in my room, but i still need more  and this sight (you guys) is really helping me. Im trying to make my room like a billboard...with a train running through it. Here are 3 out of 20 points i have up so far. This HSR in California will cost 80-100 million per mile by comparison HSR from Boston to Washington D.C. that is also planned. is estimated to cost over 250 million per mile, California's HSR seems like a bargin. Another point the business plan makes is Califonia has 170,000 miles of road, which everyone brags is so important, but its the busiest 170,000 miles in our nation. Lastly the target market for this HSR is people who travel between 100-600 miles. I am definatly going to use you guys as a resource


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By sqor on 25 Jul 2012 08:29 PM 
I am trying to add some pictures but I don't know how to do it. Do I need to pay for the right to do that ? sqor,

The answer to one question regarding do you need to become a paying member of MLS to include either hyperlinks to your images or include the display of those images directly in your replies, the answer is no. You just need to have the image files stored/hosted somewhere that they are accessible via the Internet, such as one of the many free photo sharing sites e.g. Photobucket, Viemo, Flickr etc. etc..

You will find instructions on how to make use of the Rich-text HTML editor here on MLS within the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) section, which can be accessed using the following listed path, or you can simply click the path since it is a link to the FAQ.

MLS menu-bar >> Resources menu >> FAQ[/b]


Reference: Q12. As a Standard Member how do I use the Rich-text/HTML Editor?


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Dick - 

"Jack, sqor said he was using the WP Zephyr as is comparison. You'll like the California Zephyr. " 

I know I'll like the CZ - I rode it last fall as well. I've never known an Amtrak train I didn't like. Except, maybe, the City of New Orleans. Unbelieveably rough track and disappointing Jambalaya considering the name of the train! 

But more to the subject of the thread - I don't understand how the WP train could be a better comparison to HSR considering the decades between. Wouldn't the current train give a more valid comparison? 

JackM


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

I like the WP train better because that's the period where trains where nearer the top of of there game. These days trains are not as popular, thus taking a more popular period is easier period to explain to the students. In order for HSR to work ridership must get even better that that period, these days 55 mph does not cut it it must be much fast to create incentive for the people.


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

Also the WP train is at Disneyland, giving more buy in and built in memory for students. Sorry I love Walt Disney and what he has done for this country. Walt uses history in all he ever did, which is ironic because kids hate history but they love Disneyland. So if I can create a little Disneyland in my class all the better. My classroom will never be done. :-D


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

My thoughts involved adjusting dollars for inflation, population density of different eras, availability of other modes of transportaion (planes, personal automobiles), access to Interstate highway system, etc. 

JackM


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

sqor, you may want to send a letter to Trains magazine for some info. The had a cost comparision between different modes of public transportation a couple of years ago. They do a lot of research on passenger trains and may be able to give you some help. Also the National Assoc. of Railroad Passengers may be able to give you some info. 
Ron


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

For the high speed rail plans, do their endpoints arrive at populated cities? Ie the Palmdale to Vegas HSR plan. If they did either Disneyland, LA Union Station, or San Fernando Valley with a Palmdale stop it would be a good transport option. Driving to Palmdale is about 1/3 of the way and most will finish the drive since they already went so far.


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## sqor (Jul 24, 2012)

i think i will look into the trains mag idea... yes HSR does hit all the major cities eventually plus blend with all the big city rail lines also...


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By sqor on 30 Jul 2012 12:03 AM 
... This HSR in California will cost 80-100 million per mile ...
seriously? $25 Billion for an LA to Vegas train?


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