# Is an Accucraft Mason Bogie the wrong place to start with live steam?



## MikeK (Jan 3, 2008)

To date, I have only dealt with electric motive power in my locomotive choices. Based on what I have seen from the one engine that has circulated around, the live steam Accucraft Mason Bogie looks to be a beautifully designed locomotive. Based on your experiences with live steam and the other Accucraft offerings that are on the market now, could I enter the live steam realm with this locomotive, or am I asking for trouble?


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By MikeK on 21 Oct 2009 06:05 PM 
To date, I have only dealt with electric motive power in my locomotive choices. Based on what I have seen from the one engine that has circulated around, the live steam Accucraft Mason Bogie looks to be a beautifully designed locomotive. Based on your experiences with live steam and the other Accucraft offerings that are on the market now, could I enter the live steam realm with this locomotive, or am I asking for trouble?


Mike, it would be a perfect locomotive to enter the live steam fraternity. Most all Accucraft locomotives are easy to fire and run well. I started with their C16 and loved it. I now have a few more of their offerings.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it would be fine! 
I haven't seen the Mason Bogie in person..but I have seen plenty of other Accucraft locos and other live steamers.. 
of all shapes and sizes..all the basic functions are the same..you are just getting it in a much prettier package than a normal "starter" loco.. 
but its not really any more complicated..(well..it might be *slightly* more complicated, if there is a pump or something like that.. 
but its nothing you cant handle..) 

basically what you are asking is: "I have never driven or owned a car before..is it ok if I start with a Cadillac?"  

sure! I say go for it.. 

Scot


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, if you like the look of the Mason-Bogie, definitely go for it. But you will have to wait another half a year or so. Operation is straightforward and easy, you will just need to watch the water lever more often than on other locomotives because M-B has quite a small boiler. As it appears to have a hand pump, so it will actually be more fun to run. But only on a raised, elevated layout and not on the ground level track! If you just want any locomotive very soon, it seems there are some good deals on a few last C-19s, these have big boilers but many were delivered with valves out of tune (Cliff may have corrected some) Let us know! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


----------



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Your question Mike is one of the most frequently asked questions asked in live steam. No I don’t mean is the Mason Bogie the engine to start with but is the “X” engine the one to start with. I tell my customers if you like it then that’s the one but it is always better to start with a simple engine because if you have trouble, or what you perceive to be trouble, then the live steam community more than likely has lost you; we don’t want that to happen. 

You say you have been a “Sparky” if you have a railroad, does it have hills? What are you modeling now what do you like. I try and point people into the shay type locomotive if they have hills. The Accucraft 2 cylinder shay is a good runner, and more important, easy to learn live steam on. The other thing I try and do is get new people to attend as many live steam events as they can before sinking a lot of money into an engine that they may not like in the end. 

I was lucky! My first engine was an Aster Daylight. At the time I bought it there was no internet to ask questions on, I had no idea what 10 foot radius meant (it meant that my back yard was only big enough for a circle) I didn’t know anyone else in the hobby. So why was I lucky, I would have quit in frustration if I hadn’t met David Leech, quite by accident. He had a layout and taught me how to run live steam. 

I don’t care if you’re rich or not, $3000, $2000 or even $1000 is too much money to spend on something if you decide it’s not right for you.


----------



## MikeK (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the input so far.


My track is all flat and level, but not at waist height as I have seen many steam tracks.  The track work is confined in a raised planter-type area about 18" above ground level.
 
I lean toward the logging and narrow gauge era of the late 1800's, but do run what I like.
 
Once again, thanks for the comments!


----------



## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I faced a similar dilema as I entered the hobby not to long ago. I don't have any familiarity with axle pumps as I own a Mogul and Ruby. The Accucraft butane burners are rather straight forward to run, all fairly routine and simple. Though, for $400, I'd buy a Ruby if I were you to see if Live Steam is your thing. It's a great starter loco that teaches you the basics of the hobby and makes for a great kitbashing project later on. Assembled or kit, doesn't matter as you will still learn a lot! Though you could start with the Mason Bogie and be fine but I'd still get the Ruby first to see if you like the hobby.


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steven, I understand your reasoning but personally I do not see much point in getting a locomotive one does not want, only because it is cheap and cheerful. I have seen a few Ruby's, do not own one, only a Ruby based Fort Wilderness, and I would never advice anyone to start with it. For someone who is used to electric trains, Ruby is a recipe for permanent discouragement IMHO. Sure there will be exceptions. But if Mike has the funds, he should go and see and possibly try out some live steamers at steamups and then he should get himself a decent live steamer. Best, Zubi


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Or.......................You might consider a Loco from Roundhouse. When is the last time you have read around here about anyone having a problem with one of their Loco's ? As far as reliability and good running, they are probably the best of all.


----------



## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

I just bought an Accucraft mogul for my first live steamer and have no regrets so far. It has been fired three times and runs well. Mine has the butane tank in the cab, so it will be easy to add a radio control receiver in the empty tender so I can run it without chasing it and bending over so much. My run time seems to be about 30 minutes. 

On the other hand, if you like logging, the 2 cylinder shay might be perfect.


----------



## therbert (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree with most of the advice that has been given so far, except for the "start with a Ruby" post. A lot of folks do exactly that, and succeed and enjoy getting into live steam, mainly because they don't want to throw a lot of money into something they may not like. I have a Ruby that runs very well, and I like it a lot, and I have another in kit form that I haven't finished yet. I also have a couple of larger locos, an Aristo Mikado and an Accucraft S-12 0-6-0. I have run live steam locos up to a 2 1/2" scale, 2000# 2-8-2 on 7 1/2" gauge track. And there is no escaping one fact -- the larger the loco is, the easier it is to run! 

A Ruby has a tiny boiler, and runs for a very short time on one fill of water and fuel. Because the boiler is so small, it has very little thermal mass (it is very subject to being affected by the temperature of its surroundings, especially if it's a windy day). A larger boiler holds more water, obviously, and therefore is going to be easier to keep hot, once it is heated. Therefore, an engine with a larger boiler is going to require less constant adjustment of the fire, and less frequent adding of water to keep running. Plus, the larger locos tend to include more of the things that allow you to tend to the boiler -- Goodall valves (for adding water under pressure), sight glasses (to monitor the level of water in the boiler), hand pumps in the tender, etc. Sure, you can add these things to a small boiler, but that doesn't make the boiler any bigger.

So, if you like the Mason Bogie, I say go for it! It will be easier to run than a Ruby, IMO, it's a beautiful loco, and if you really decide after running it for a while that live steam isn't your thing, as long as you keep it in great condition you should probably be able to sell it without taking much of a loss, if any, because of the limited production run. There will always be someone that missed them when they first came out, and will be looking for one, or that already has one in one color, and wants one in the other.

I will say this though -- in my time as a live steamer (since 1992) I've only known ONE person that got out of it after getting in, because they didn't like it.


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By MikeK on 21 Oct 2009 10:19 PM 
Thanks for the input so far.


My track is all flat and level, but not at waist height as I have seen many steam tracks. The track work is confined in a raised planter-type area about 18" above ground level.

I lean toward the logging and narrow gauge era of the late 1800's, but do run what I like.

Once again, thanks for the comments! 
Mike, 18" above ground level is quite substantial, and if you are young and do not mind bending and kneeling down from time to time, the combination of you and your layout is live steam compatible. However, what is flat and level for electric loco's, may still be hilly for some live steamers without R/C. Of course, you can install R/C in your steamer. Or, like someone said you can get a Roundhouse with R/C pre-installed. But they do not make logging or US 1880 era trains. So you are essentially limited to Accucrafts such as the two truck Shay which Dan recommended, or the 4-4-0 or a Mogul, or the Mason Bogie in which you seem to be most interested - and rightly so! You also need to remember that live steamers prefer gentle, large diameter curves. Other than that, it is really difficult to say much about the Mason-Bogie because only a handful of people have actually operated the prototype. The final, release version may actually operate slightly differently if some changes will be implemented. But we all believe that it will be a fine and reliable locomotive, and many of us are looking forward to this loco! Like someone said, if you choose this one, you cannot go wrong with it because it will likely be a very sought after model which will not loose its value easily. Best wishes, Zubi


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

The new Regner shay looks pretty cool. Nice writeup on it in the latest Steam in the Garden.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

There probably is no wrong place to start in the live steam hobby. However, some locomotives will bring more pleasures than others. THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT THAT THE BEST PLACE TO START IS WITH A ROUNDHOUSE LOCOOMOTIVE. http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/ If you do nothing else you should read all the information available on the Roundhouse Engineering web page. The Southern Steam Trains web site also has a lot of good information and you might read what is available there. http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/index.htm Both of these sites have information on specific engines that they sell, but more importantly for you, the information available is of use to anyone in the live steam hobby. 

Again the best choice is a Roundhouse. Nothing runs like a Roundhouse.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If you just want any locomotive very soon, it seems there are some good deals on a few last C-19s, these have big boilers but many were delivered with valves out of tune 

Zubi - the C-19s were recalled to the factory to correct the timing. I just got one and it runs beautifully. 
See the video in *http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx* 

Ruby is a recipe for permanent discouragement IMHO 

That's a quote with which I can agree. Ruby's are cheap but finicky. They run like banshees if you can keep the fire lit. 

The mid-size locos, including the Mason-Bogie, are a much better first loco. The 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 seem to be fairly problem free out of the box. My C-16 was never any trouble and it was my first Accucraft loco.


----------



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

As other's have said, Roundhouse. Doug got his a few months ago, and man does she run nice, especially with remote control. 

Also Steve mentioned the Accucraft S-12. It is the least expensive entry into 1:32 and I have been having a blast with mine. Add fifteen-eighteen cars and you'll forget shes a switcher.


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 22 Oct 2009 06:59 AM 
Or.......................You might consider a Loco from Roundhouse. When is the last time you have read around here about anyone having a problem with one of their Loco's ? As far as reliability and good running, they are probably the best of all.

LOL







, Steve and now I see Dave have to chime in with Roundhouse(neither has an Accucraft engine of any kind). I just have to wonder, if he was interested in a Roundhouse(or an Aster) would you chime in and suggest an Accucraft??


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 22 Oct 2009 11:43 AM 
If you just want any locomotive very soon, it seems there are some good deals on a few last C-19s, these have big boilers but many were delivered with valves out of tune 

Zubi - the C-19s were recalled to the factory to correct the timing. I just got one and it runs beautifully. 
See the video in http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


Pete, that is a nice video! Good stack talk!! You are right about them having been sent back for fixing, but many were already distributed by the time the problems were first reported and Accucraft realised that something is not quite right. I received my first C19 before as one of the first ones delivered. The second one, I think it was dealt with by Cliff because it was provisionally re-packed (different from factory style) like he often does when he tests loco's prior to dispatch. This second one left Accucraft in too short a time to have made a trip to China and back on a boat, it would only just be able to fly there and back. This is why I think some early birds got out with random valve settings, a few may have been intercepted by Cliff and the rest of the first run went back to China and came again, followed by the second run. That is my theory. It may be wrong for all engines except the ones I received. Best, Zubi


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve S. on 22 Oct 2009 06:59 AM 
Or.......................You might consider a Loco from Roundhouse. When is the last time you have read around here about anyone having a problem with one of their Loco's ? As far as reliability and good running, they are probably the best of all.
Steve, they are very good and robust, but they do have problems from time to time. Any live steamer will have problems, it is a working machine. I have two and both had their share of problems but one of them is my best running and overall most favourite engine. What kind of problems? Blocked gas jet on new delivered engine, at the time of first steaming (ask Aster UK who fixed it;-), water gauge glass which slid down and blocked lower pipe, therefore blocking the free water passage through itself and rending itself non-functional. These happened on my Darjeeling B-tank - the most favourite one and the best performer of all my steamers. On the VoR tank, the whistle valve got baked solid, once or twice. I am not sure if it currently functions I may have given up on it. Initially they had o-rings I believe but these are unnecessary and a source of problems. Not steam related, but on the same loco R/C crystal died in the receiver. So there you have my little list, any locomotive that you use will have problems from time to time. What is important is that when they run which they almost always do, Roundhouses run extremely well and are quite powerful. And, what is also important, if you have any, even most minor problem, Roundhouse staff will help you sort it out. They helped me many times, in the cases listed above (except for the gas jet as pointed out above) and in other cases when I accidentally destroyed some body parts myself by running into switches and such... So yes, essentially you are right, Best, Zubi


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

No John, I would not suggest an Accrucraft as I believe the way to go for a first engine (and even additional engines) is with Rouindhouse. I do not own a Accrucraft. I have considered getting one several times and decided they are not for me. They are not for me based on what I have seen at Steve's and Diamondhead in addition to what I have read here on the Live Steam Forums and in the hobby's magazines. As you know I have been playing with these toys for about twelve years so there has been plenty of time for me to observe different engines.

As I said there is no wrong choice but some engines give more pleasure than others. 

It is good that newcomers get to hear or read differnt opinions to help them decide on an engine.


----------



## MikeK (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow!  Thanks for all the input in a short period of time...
I appreciate all of your comments and input very much.


----------



## AzRob (Sep 14, 2009)

Obviously if a Mason is your first choice as an entry loco, then cost may not be as much of a factor, but I'd just like to point out that to some of us with limited budgets, the idea of buying a Roundhouse (or Aster, or whatever) is nice but out of the price range, even on the low end of the scale. A Sammy at 450 GBP plus shipping vs a Ruby at $400 delivered...that's at least a $300 difference. Just something else to consider for newbies out there.


----------



## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Lots of good suggestions here about what makes a good starter engine, but that wasn't the question. If the Mason Bogie appeals to you, I'd say go for it. My first engine was an Accucraft C-16, and I don't think I could have asked for a better introduction to live steam. Although the thought of lighting a fire inside a $2000+ model can be a little intimidating for a first-timer (you get over that pretty quickly), running one of the larger Accucraft engines is really no more complicated than running a Ruby, and they're generally much better behaved. 

It's not uncommon for a few (usually minor) issues to crop up and become a topic for discussion here on MLS whenever a new batch of Accucraft models arrives off the boat from China. The good news is, if your new engine isn't running right, the fixes are usually easy, and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here on this forum who can explain them for you. Better yet, Accucraft is well known for their excellent customer service, so if you do run into a problem that you can't fix on your own or with expert guidance from other MLS members, you can count on Accucraft to make it right for you. Since only a very few people on this forum have had their hands on an Accucraft Mason Bogie (and a pre-production sample at that), it's too early to say what kinds of quirks the production models might have. Just remember that tinkering is part of the fun of live steam. You get to play shop foreman as well as engineer!

One thing the Mason Bogie has going for it is that it's a limited-production model that's reportedly very close to selling out. That means if you get one and after a few runs you decide that live steam just isn't for you, chances are you'd be able to sell it for something close to what you paid for it. More likely though, you'll probably start thinking about what engine would make a good _second_ live steamer!


----------



## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

I have four Rubies, two larger Accucraft locos, one extensively modified Roundhouse and some other miscellaneous steamers. 

There is nothing wrong with a Ruby. It's not a great live steam loco, due to its size, but it's a very good one and quite adequate as a starter. But if you think you might enjoy it, enough so that you're willing to put down $400-500 for a Ruby, then you will undoubtedly enjoy a larger loco more. So why not go for a "real" live steamer? 

I have this big stable of Accucrafts and only one Roundhouse, but I would still recommend a Roundhouse as a first loco. It was my first, and if they offered more US prototypes, I would likely have more. The other reason I have more Accucrafts is price. Roundhouse engines cost more, but I could have bought a nice SR&RL 24 for what I paid for the C-16 and Mogul, and it would have had radio control instead of the problems I had with the Mogul. Accucraft makes very nice locos, but they have never managed to get their design and build quality up to Roundhouse's level. 

That said, I am very, very happy with the Accucraft C-16 and Mogul. They are great pullers, each runs almost an hour, and they look good. I won't let go of either one until I'm too old to hold the butane can. I have had a great time modifying the Rubies and I usually take one of them to a show or steamup, rather than dragging the larger engines. But they don't run more than about 15 minutes, so they're more work per hour. 

I'm not sure the Bogie is the best starter, though, since it appears that it's going to take more sophistication from the engineer than, say, a C-19. But if you have friends to help you get it under control, then why not?


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Frank said:
LOL







, Steve and now I see Dave have to chime in with Roundhouse(neither has an Accucraft engine of any kind). I just have to wonder, if he was interested in a Roundhouse(or an Aster) would you chime in and suggest an Accucraft??









NO............. IMHO, not worth all the extra effort involved to make one run well. (I do realize that with Accucraft it is kind of like throwing dice. You may get a winner right out of the box. But with me not being a good fixer upper, it's just not worth the chance. There are so many other Loco brands out there with such a _higher percentage rate_ of running well out of the box).


----------



## MikeK (Jan 3, 2008)

I appreciate all of your input on my entry-to-live-steam question.
 
In the end, I did place an order with Ridge Road Station for a live steam "San Juan".  So sometime next spring (give or take a few months), I'll also be selecting a Steamaholics number.


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, congratulations!! And welcome to the Mason B Club;-))) I think you will not regret this decision. Best wishes, Zubi


----------



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 

Welcome to the brother/sister/humanhood of live steam. No matter what may come, folks here on MLS will help. My first year post purchase was up and down and now I'm steaming big time, all due to friends I met here. 

I'll never forget what a biker room-mate said to me about his Harley 20 years ago. "You run it cause you love it, and if you love it enough, you won't mind the wrenching involved". Sounds like live steam to me...


----------



## aankus (Jan 5, 2008)

Mike, 
After three 'thank you's' I think that it is obvious that this thread has assumed a life of it's own..... 
It is also highly reflective of it's inhabitant's.....I'd better explain before I get 'flamed', they are inviting, helpful ,knowledgable, and opinionated as ****. 
Not necessarily in that order. But that is the 'beauty' if you will, of this fraternity which only 'requires' the same fine attributes of any new participants. 
Oh, and BTW, my Vail of Rheidol by Roundhouse is my all time best performer with it's quilliable whistle and a sight glass that I can actually SEE ! 
As was stated by another on this thread, I only wish they would produce more North American models.


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike: 
Free advice and worth what you paid for it, that said. Buy what you like and appeals to you (what really gets your juices flowing), not what you or others think you "should." All steamers work the same way - boiling water - meaning the fundamentals learning curve is the same. The first will definitely not be your last meaning you will have ample opportunity to experience other loco's, either vicariously; others saying, "have a go at it"; etc., at steamups. 

Besides, if you don't get what you really like and want then just as night follows day you will not be truly satisfied. Always in the back of your mind thinking, I wish... Eventually you will buy the one you really wanted in the first place. Many, many will give you chapter and verse on this exact chain of events. Learn and take-to-heart our experience. 


Remember the live steamer's credo: 

Don't worry, be happy.


----------



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 24 Oct 2009 10:03 PM 
John Frank said:
LOL







, Steve and now I see Dave have to chime in with Roundhouse(neither has an Accucraft engine of any kind). I just have to wonder, if he was interested in a Roundhouse(or an Aster) would you chime in and suggest an Accucraft??









NO............. IMHO, not worth all the extra effort involved to make one run well. (I do realize that with Accucraft it is kind of like throwing dice. You may get a winner right out of the box. But with me not being a good fixer upper, it's just not worth the chance. There are so many other Loco brands out there with such a _higher percentage rate_ of running well out of the box).


Well Steve, the real reason is they are made in CHINA isn't it? And the Chinese are not Republicans. If you want an American engine and you don't want to pay 10 grand then Accucraft is just about your only choice. Dave likes British prototypes. Some people don't. If not for Accucraft I probably would not be in the hobby because I was never attracted to little British quarry engines. I did like the first Aster shay that I ever saw years ago......but now that I have seen them run I am glad I never got one. As for the rest of your comment....your just showing your Aster snob side again because you know the engines work just fine and it's not like throwing dice.


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Hmm..., I got my new Baldwin kit out of the box and it does not run!! I put all the bits back into the box, I shook it, threw the lot out and it still does not run... What is wrong?? Zubi


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Frank said:
Well Steve, the real reason is they are made in CHINA isn't it? And the Chinese are not Republicans. If you want an American engine and you don't want to pay 10 grand then Accucraft is just about your only choice. Dave likes British prototypes. Some people don't. If not for Accucraft I probably would not be in the hobby because I was never attracted to little British quarry engines. I did like the first Aster shay that I ever saw years ago......but now that I have seen them run I am glad I never got one. As for the rest of your comment....your just showing your Aster snob side again because you know the engines work just fine and it's not like throwing dice.
John thats such a good shot







I don't even have a come back. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy it for a while. But one thing I do want to know. How much does Accucraft pay you again ????????


----------



## George Zimmermann (Apr 5, 2008)

It sounds like a defective Aster or if it's in a true kit form, you may just need to build it first. HAHA

I have only been collecting live steam (previous large LGB Collector) for 1-2 years now and already have a fairly large collection of Standard and Narrow Gauge engines, some Asters, some RoundHouse and the majority are Accucraft as the other two just don't make that many American Prototype engines. So, like it or not most will people will be temped if not for price by the selection of available engines. For the most part I have been happy with the Accucraft enignes although not up to Aster standards, most run very well. I have only had major issues with one of my C-19's and a full color scheme alcohol Daylight GS-4, which neither would run out of the box. I also have two alcohol Royal Hudsons that run almost as good as my Aster Berk and Mikado.

So for now unless Aster or Roundhouse start producing more American prototypes Accucraft is the only viable source and over the last year their engines have been getting better from what I see (can't wait to get my Mason Bogie), lets just hope it continues.


----------

