# Reversing Loops



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

We have an outdoor LGB layout with 2 dogbones, 1 at each end. We have 2 sets of the LGB reversing loop kits (1015K and 1015T). The loops work fine manually (ie switch the power transformer to reverse once the train passes the 1015T). In order to automate the operation, we purchased the following items:

(2) 17100 Track Contacts
(1) 12010 EPL Switch
(1) 12030 Supplementary Switch
(1) 51750 Orange Control Box
(1) 52750 Red EPL Booster


We followed the instructions in the old LGB pdf guide book for connecting the 12010 and the 12030 together and then wiring the unit to the 17100 track contacts. The wiring diagram states that we need to wire the 12010/12030 directly to the track as well as running it to the transformer. Our problem is that we want to use the 51750 and 52750 in the circuit to add additional accessories later on. How do we connect the 12010/12030 to the 51750 and then connect the 51750(52750 which are daisy chained via the prongs) to the transformer? Do we need to connect the 12010/12030 directly to the transformer, since it appears that the track power is now runiing through the switch according to the diagram, or does everything need to run through the 51750/52750 including the cinnection to the track? If so, how do we wire the 51750/52750 for the track power as well as the accessory power?

The diagrams are not clear at all, any help would be appreciated!!!


----------



## RGSW (Jan 3, 2008)

No help here. I tried one LGB reversing loop 14 years ago and did not like it. It was too much trouble to use. You could convert to battery and then the reverse loop would be unnecessary. I reworked my track so I did not have to use a reverse loop and liked it much better. I felt it was a pain to have to monitor the train continuously and get it thru the reverse loop. Good luck.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

If you have the space to add a new track parallel to the long straight and make a dog bone, you will be a lot happier in the long run. Reversing loops are high maintenance (unless you are doing batteries or live steam).

Chuck


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 29 Nov 2009 05:29 PM 
We have an outdoor LGB layout with 2 dogbones, 1 at each end. We have 2 sets of the LGB reversing loop kits (1015K and 1015T). The loops work fine manually (ie switch the power transformer to reverse once the train passes the 1015T). In order to automate the operation, we purchased the following items:

(2) 17100 Track Contacts
(1) 12010 EPL Switch
(1) 12030 Supplementary Switch
(1) 51750 Orange Control Box
(1) 52750 Red EPL Booster


We followed the instructions in the old LGB pdf guide book for connecting the 12010 and the 12030 together and then wiring the unit to the 17100 track contacts. The wiring diagram states that we need to wire the 12010/12030 directly to the track as well as running it to the transformer. Our problem is that we want to use the 51750 and 52750 in the circuit to add additional accessories later on. How do we connect the 12010/12030 to the 51750 and then connect the 51750(52750 which are daisy chained via the prongs) to the transformer? Do we need to connect the 12010/12030 directly to the transformer, since it appears that the track power is now runiing through the switch according to the diagram, or does everything need to run through the 51750/52750 including the cinnection to the track? If so, how do we wire the 51750/52750 for the track power as well as the accessory power?

The diagrams are not clear at all, any help would be appreciated!!!



We need a better understaning of the LGB method you are using. Is it this one?









If so, note that the two wires going into the EPL are from the loop, but this is from the transformer. The output goes to the length between the two loops. If this is what you are doing, you have to always proceed the same direction so using the 51750 to throw the turnout may be a no no.


Or maybe this is the one you are trying to do:








Without serious study, this one looks like you maybe could throw a tunout when the train is between the loops and have the power route it self properly, then it would go about it merry way alternating back and forth betwen the loops. If you wanted to manually control a turnout using the 51750 to change the normal cycle of the pattern, you would simply wire it to the turnout motor piggy back (in parallel) with the wires coming of the reversing system as you would normally wire the turnout.


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

the second plan is the one to use. 
in the first is a mistake. 
the EPL system MUST be run from the AC not from the DC output of the regulator.


----------



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

We are running a layout similar to the 2nd diagram. Howver, we are not using the motors for the switches, the switches are in a fixed position, so the train will go the same way going into the loop each time. Also, we are using just (1) 17100 --- 1 in each loop. Is a 2nd one required in each loop, or is this due to the switch motors in the diagram?


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

if the turnouts are not to be switched, you would need just one switch (plus the additional switch) and two reedcontacts (1710) 
sure, you need the two pairs of 10152 and 11152 (or the equivalent in homemade)


----------



## VillageRail (Apr 25, 2008)

This is why my reversing loop kits are still in the boxes. ;-)


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 30 Nov 2009 05:21 AM 
We are running a layout similar to the 2nd diagram. Howver, we are not using the motors for the switches, the switches are in a fixed position, so the train will go the same way going into the loop each time. Also, we are using just (1) 17100 --- 1 in each loop. Is a 2nd one required in each loop, or is this due to the switch motors in the diagram?


OK, I'm confused. If the turnouts are in "fixed position," what is your intention for the orange box and booster. This box includes four momentary electrial switches and is typically used to throw the turnouts, but can also be used to activate accessories. The 51750 is designed to be connected to the a/c tap on your power pack.


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

If the switches are in fixed positions won't the train short coming out of the loop?


----------



## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the to DC goes to the dc output that controls the speed of the train 

the to mainline is the power to the center of the dog bone the you need to reverse power on while in the loop

the ac power is to run the 12010 machine the 17100 have dioides in them to route power

you will also need a magnet on the bottom of the loco


----------



## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been running a loop to loop for that past two years in my basement. We no disrespect to the different camps I stayed with analog track power for simplicity. The second diagram with the three 12030/12070 reversing systems I what I settled on. Once I had all the EPL components it took about 30 minutes to wire and test the system. The polarity can only be switched when the train is in a loop. The direction alternates with each trip through a loop which adds variety. The train can travel in both directions in the loops allowing spurs and switching. You can back a train around a loop if you add a magnet to the last car to trip the 17100. 

The first diagram works Ok but you have to be careful with spring switches, (you can't back through them) and if you use the reverse loop sets or diodes to reduce wiring to the loops you can't reverse dirrection in those blocks and the voltage drop is noticable.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The 12030 and 12070 units will work for reversing polarity, but I find that when tied to a epl drive, there is a slowness taht allows one of the 2 micro switches to change before the other thus causing a temporary short which can make some power units shutdown. 

The fix is twofold: 
Use the LGB booster to make the switches snappier, and use a simple analog power supply that will not shut down for a momentary short. 

Aristo 27mhz train engineer will shut down when this occurs, but does not blow the fuse.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 02 Dec 2009 06:19 AM 
The 12030 and 12070 units will work for reversing polarity, but I find that when tied to a epl drive, there is a slowness taht allows one of the 2 micro switches to change before the other thus causing a temporary short which can make some power units shutdown. 

The fix is twofold: 
Use the LGB booster to make the switches snappier, and use a simple analog power supply that will not shut down for a momentary short. 

Aristo 27mhz train engineer will shut down when this occurs, but does not blow the fuse. 


There is also another fix. You can shim one/both sides of the epl where the "line gear" pushes on the red tab. I've done this in cases where the epl would not throw completely each time.


----------



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

We hooked upeverything according to the direction given, and we get the following: 

51750 Orange Control Box- Green light on 
52750 Red EPL Booster - Yellow light on 

18v at transformer output 
17+v at 51750 and 52750 
17+v at 17100 track contacts 

The problem.......It appears the 17100 is not tripping or there is something else going on. The train does not go through the loop without throwing the directional switch in reverse. HELP!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Many years ago, I faced a similar situation on my old SCLCo Railroad. After looking at the LGB solutions, I came up with my own (simpler to my mind) method. It not only reversed mainline polarity, but aligned both turnouts (the near and far reversing loop turnouts) automatically for subsequent operation. Its only limitation is that the train must enter each loop in the same direction each time. This limitation is also handled automatically by the automated turnout alignment.

My post describing this system can be found in the archives *here*.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 06 Dec 2009 10:09 AM 
We hooked upeverything according to the direction given, and we get the following: 

51750 Orange Control Box- Green light on 
52750 Red EPL Booster - Yellow light on 

18v at transformer output 
17+v at 51750 and 52750 
17+v at 17100 track contacts 

The problem.......It appears the 17100 is not tripping or there is something else going on. The train does not go through the loop without throwing the directional switch in reverse. HELP!!!!!!!!!! 

I still don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with the 51750 nor how you have applied the 51750 to the diagram. Also, is the 18v at transformer output a/c as it should be? Did you remember to put the magnet on the loco under-carrage? Have you tried to just trip the track contacts with a magnet and see the outcome? 

Typically when these thing don't work, it is because the person is trying to use the wrong terminal on the 17100s.


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

just have a look at this. this is from the LGB handbook 

http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/bahn/looprevers.GIF


this is not from the handbook, but very clear.

http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/bahn/schaltung2.JPG


----------



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

OK Almighty keepers of the LGB Flame.... 

We have disconnected everything except the 
(1) 17100 Track Contact 
(1) 12010 EPL Switch 
(1) 12030 Supplementary Switch 

We have wired everything according to the directions given, however you still need to throw the train in reverse for it to reverse. Should the 12010 be making any switching sounds or moving? Could the magnet under the LOCO not be throwing the 17100? Anyway to test these items?


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 09 Dec 2009 06:21 PM 
OK Almighty keepers of the LGB Flame.... 

We have disconnected everything except the 
(1) 17100 Track Contact 
(1) 12010 EPL Switch 
(1) 12030 Supplementary Switch 

We have wired everything according to the directions given, however you still need to throw the train in reverse for it to reverse. Should the 12010 be making any switching sounds or moving? Could the magnet under the LOCO not be throwing the 17100? Anyway to test these items? 

Did you properly observe and orient the wires with the "arrows" on the 17100's shown in the diagram? Usually, when these things don't work, this is the #1 suspect.

Are you using a/c to trigger the turnout motors/epls and d/c for the track feeds? _If you have to "throw the train in reverse for it to reverse," it sounds as if this could very well be your problem._

Is the magnet under your engine close enough to the track?

If you look at the diagram, you should be able to pass a magnet over the two 17100's on the left side and the left side turnout motor (12050+12030) should alternate directions accordingly. The same should happen on the right side except in that case it looks as if both the turnout motor and epl (12150 +12030) and extra 12010 +12030 should alternate with the two 17100's.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Did you ever solve your problem? If not, I have another potential answer.

Today I was over at Dave Sheegog's Railroad helping him with a similar problem. If the name is familiar, it is because Dave built the "Disneyland-Themed" railroad located in the Anaheim Hills and featured in the current issue of _Garden Railways Magazine_.

Anyway, his loop-to-loop would not operate properly after he had replaced a transformer that he uses for his a/c source to trigger the turnouts. He uses the simpler of the two LGB diagrams I had shown, but added another 17100 to throw the turnout that would normally be spring-loaded. It seems that the Accucraft Casey Jr. engine could not reliably push the turnout points over without derailing the engine so he added the additional 17100 to toggle the turnout.

Anyhow, he had the problem that when the turnout was toggled by the magnet under the engine, the turnout_ sometimes_ buzzed as if it wanted to continually be powered in the other direction and it was fighting itself. I ran a voltage check and sure enough the turnout was receiving power even with no magnet over the reed switches. I then checked the continuity of the reed switch in the 17100, and sure enough, _it had welded itself closed_ so that the turnout was always active switching in one direction. We went over to the local hobby shop to hopefully get another 17100 and got their last one (@~$22). While we were there, I also asked if they had reed switches. They did in packs of 5 with 5 neodymium magnets for $10, so we got a pack of those too.

Anyhow, I cut the old reed switch out and soldered in a new one rendering the unit totally operative (and he can take back the $$$ LGB part), and Casey Jr. was back in action..., for a bit. Then the problem raised its ugly head again, but intermittantly. It seems that the reed switch in the other 17100 was also on its way to "giving up the ghost" so also got replaced. Everything works great now.


----------



## hans911 (Jan 9, 2008)

Todd, 
I knew you'd be the guy for this job! Way to go! 
Paul H.


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

maybe my description in another forum for the same problem helps. 
and yes, welded reeds are a constant pain in the behind. the slower the trains go, the more often they happen. using bigger reeds helps a bit. 

i am no friend of standing and steering trains. 
i prefer to sit and watch them over the rim of a glas. 
so it is automation for me. 
when i had a single track with a loop at each end, i used: 
1 loop set from LGB 
1 homemade loop set (copied from the above) 
2 electric turnouts 
1 additional switch (the add-on for the turnout switches) 
2 homemade copies of the 17100 reed-contacts 
1 transformer/controller AC and DC 

i put the loop-sets directly after and before the two arms of the turnouts. 
so, thanks to the diodes the whole loops could be travelled in one direction only. 
(as continental person i had the trains go to the right of a turnout and return into the left.) 
far enough into the loop i had a reed-contact. (AC in - reed - diode or reversed diode - "DC" out) 
the reed in the right loop did switch the right turnout to the left, and the left turnout to the right. 
the reed in the left loop did just the oposite. 
the power from the controller did not go directly to the track, but into the additional switch. 
when the right turnout opened its left leg, the power was reversed. when it opened its right leg power went straight. 
(supposing, that travel from left to right on the main line was forwards) 
even at slower speeds it was hard to notice the short powerless moment, while the switch was moving. 

that was simple. 
(it became more complicated, when i included a siding in the mainline and a second loco with reversed polarity...) 

i did not let the trains slow down before stopping. (i hadn't learned the idea with the "slow-down" diodes yet)


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are getting welded reed contacts, besides considering larger (capacity) reeds, you might want to add a disk cap across the reed to help absorb some of the transients that are obviously damaging it. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Dec 2009 09:44 AM 
If you are getting welded reed contacts, besides considering larger (capacity) reeds, you might want to add a disk cap across the reed to help absorb some of the transients that are obviously damaging it. 

Regards, Greg 


This capacitor, along with the two diodes, is already included in the LGB 17100 assembly.


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i ignore, what a "disc cap" is. 
if you mean that round thing, that is connected in paralell with the reed, that does not prevent welding. 
by my experience it is easy: the slower the trains run, the longer the magnet draws, the more often the reeds get welded.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like the stock reed is not up to the job then.. reed switches are not known for their current carrying ability. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Dec 2009 06:38 PM 
Looks like the stock reed is not up to the job then.. reed switches are not known for their current carrying ability. 

Regards, Greg 

Agreed that the system is minimally optimal but usually functions trouble free for several years if the reed only throws just one turnout.

On our leap frog on the Tortoise & Lizard Bash, two turnouts are toggled simultaneously by reeds and the LGB 17100 would not take that abuse for long. We use the cheapest, smallest reeds with no capacitors to trigger 555 chips that then use relays to toggle the turnouts. This offers several advantages including unlimited reed switch life regardless of the number of turnouts thrown simultaneously, but adds to the complexity. Its actually cheaper to use the 555 chips than the LGB components, and one can almost make an entire, semi-sophisticated loop to loop system for about the price of one LGB 17100 reed switch.


----------



## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

I agree with using relays to carry the current ..... I have had reeds and relays out in the yard of one layout I built for 17 years with no replacements


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

but usually functions trouble free for several years if the reed only throws just one turnout. 
that might wellbe the reason. 
i usually connected one reed contact with two switches. 
next i will try a one to one aproach. - if that helps to get the frequency of train crashes down...


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 18 Dec 2009 06:21 PM 
but usually functions trouble free for several years if the reed only throws just one turnout.
that might wellbe the reason. 
i usually connected one reed contact with two switches. 
next i will try a one to one aproach. - if that helps to get the frequency of train crashes down... 

Kormsen,

It's good to have you back.









Les


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

thanks Les.


----------



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

The reverse loop works(almost). It appears that there was a gear off the shaft in the 12010 switch machine. However, being that this layout has 2 dogbone loops, when the train comes out of the loop, the left or right hand switch (depending on side) moves. Does this mean that to fully automate, I need 2 additional 12010 switch macjines for each switch to make sure the switch is in the correct direction?


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

basicly you got two posibilities. 
(just to evade missunderstandings i will use the terms "turnout", "switchmotor"(12010) and "additional switch"(12030) ) 

if you got two turnouts with manual switchmotors, you need one electric switchmotor and one additional switch. 
in that case the manual switches are set each for the train entering the loop - and cut open by the train, when it leaves the loop. 
the 12010 and the 12030 then serve only for reversing current. 

if you got two electrified turnouts, you need on one of them an additional switch. 
in that case the two switchmotors are both activated by both reedcontacts (17?00) 
while one opens the way out of one loop, the other opens the way into the other loop. 
the additional switch on one of the switchmotors changes the current of the whole line back and forth.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 26 Dec 2009 09:54 AM 
The reverse loop works(almost). It appears that there was a gear off the shaft in the 12010 switch machine. However, being that this layout has 2 dogbone loops, when the train comes out of the loop, the left or right hand switch (depending on side) moves. Does this mean that to fully automate, I need 2 additional 12010 switch macjines for each switch to make sure the switch is in the correct direction? 

Not more switch machines, but maybe proper orientation of the reed switch contacts. The included diagram should provide fully automatic operation.


----------



## coralbayfl (Dec 3, 2008)

ok, so if I'm understanding correctly, the manual switches in a fixed position won't cut it, I need to add 12010 to the manual switches? As it appears from the diagram above that the 12150 and the 12050 have motors


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

that depends on your roling stock. 
some cars derail, if they shall cut a switch. 
but for the loops to work, you just need two reeds and one switchmotor with additional switch for changing current.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By coralbayfl on 26 Dec 2009 12:14 PM 
ok, so if I'm understanding correctly, the manual switches in a fixed position won't cut it, I need to add 12010 to the manual switches? As it appears from the diagram above that the 12150 and the 12050 have motors 

Yes and no. Using the existing off the shelf diagrams, you _probably_ need to have at least one turnout be controlled electrically (automatically). You can use one electric and one manual turnout if you go back to the original illustration.

Recognize that the motor that switches the supplementary dpdt switch is the same motor that actually pushes the turnout's points into place. There is no reason that this could not be a manual turnout, but you would still need a turnout motor to drive the supplementary switch, so why not let it also shove the points over for you while doing so?

Also recognize that this diagram is incomplete and that makes it confusing. What are not shown are the wires between the 17100s and the LGB 12150/16150 turnout motor. Also in the exploded view of the 12030, note that it is actually physically attached to the 12150/16150 turnout motor and is driven by the motor as it pushes the points into place.









If it is your intent to use two manual turnouts that are spring-loaded and have the trains go through the same each time, we could probably come up with something using Internet surplus relays and reed switches at a fraction of the LGB parts cost, but it sounds like you already have most/all of the LGB parts and just need assistance in wiring.


----------



## irskir (Sep 13, 2008)

Here are some other ways to do reversing loops: 
Using spring-return turnouts: 
http://www.rr-concepts.com/ap1.shtml 
Using powered turnouts: 
http://www.rr-concepts.com/images/ap1_yardmaster.pdf


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

if i'm notmistaken, the original question was how to use existing EPL components, not what to buy.


----------



## irskir (Sep 13, 2008)

Yes that's correct, but there was also discussion on using surplus parts/reed switches, etc. Maybe someone in the distant future will also come across this thread. The LGB EPL method is the most expensive & least robust method attainable, however if that's what's in your toolbox then it does make sense to try and make it work.


----------

