# LIVE STEAM & FAKE SOUND



## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

Was wondering if it is possible or if its already been done. Take a live steam engine and add a sound car behind it. My aim is to add whistle and bell sound to it using remote control to activate it (engine already running with r/c, transmitter is a 7 channel). Have tried real whistle kits from Regner. Works ok in Konrad, had trouble with it in another engine (pressure to low).

Kevin


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually if you happen to check out any Aristocraft live steam engine with all the bells and whistles plus RC, As to whistles you need to try either Bob's or DJB whistles.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Only problem I see is if you generate too much noise you won't be able to hear what your live steamer is doing.


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I've done it. I used a Phoenix sound system and programmed it to delete all sounds except the bell and whistle and then used a second Spectrum receiver in the sound car to trigger the Phoenix sound system. Worked great until a mouse built a nest in the sound car. Haven't had time to sort it out since then.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

My comment would be... why? You can get fully functional good sounding actual steam whistles from Bob Welteck and who needs a fake bell? Then again, I'm a purist. hehehe


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

That pheonix system sound good. I only want the whistle and bell, no other sound effects. I'll also look at that whistle company.
Thanks,

Kevin


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm a purist too, but the small whistle and bell won't ever sound like the real thing... because the air and steam are 1:1, so to make lower frequencies, you need the size of the prototype.. 

I think having a real steam whistle is cool, but it won't ever sound the same as the real thing. Same with the bell, you can't make the same frequency sound in a bell 20 times smaller. 

Greg


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Some guys put a whistle on the exhaust pipe inside the chimney. "Chuffers" I think they call them. Seems you would have a lot of trial and error to get the sound right.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuffers do not sound like whistles, they look similar, but the sounds are entirely different. One chuffs and the other whistles. 

Steve


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

When the Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado first came out many purists objected to the plastic boiler. My own experience proved it to be perfectly satisfactory (to me anyway).

The Aristo Mike came with an electronic sound system which I did not care for but I had happened to buy a LGB Mikado sound system on eBay and figured out a way to replace the original sound system with the LGB Mike sound system (including bell and whistle). I LOVE the LGB Chuff, Bell and Whistle.

To me live steamers sound like tea kettles (sorry but that's my opinion) and the LGB sound system really made a 1000% improvement in how I like the sound of it. 

The idea of an electronic sound system REALLY UPSET a number of live steamers to the point of telling me I COULD NOT bring it to Diamondhead. A phone call to the guy running Diamondhead confirmed that no one had any authority to tell me what I could or could not bring to Diamondhead. I brought it to Diamondhead and in subsequent years there were more and more live steamers with electronic sound systems.

In fairness, I am a Track Power guy and my live steamer has not been out of its box in well over a year. I don't speak for anyone else but I happen to like electronic sound systems - even in live steamers.

I was not sure if your topic LIVE STEAM & FAKE SOUND was about just bells and whistles or chuff as well so my answer may be more than you are looking for. 

Regarding remote control of the bell and whistle, I use track magnets to activate mine (as the LGB board was designed for) but others have found ways to activate the bell and whistle with various remotes.

I saw where you later posted "I only want the whistle and bell, no other sound effect." The LGB sound would be very much like the Phoenix system and probably more than you are looking for.

When it comes to sound everyone tends to have a different preference so it is best to decide what sounds best to you and to go with that.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Jerry & Kevin,Here is one of My Whistles on a Aristo Mike.You will see it dose not sound like a tea Pot.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Here is the Cab Forward ,It has a real nice Deep Sound


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Those are undoubtedly the best sounding small scale whistles I have ever heard. 

But, they are nothing like the sounds from a sound system with all the bass, and not dominated by high frequency hissing. 

There's just no getting around the physics of the problem, you need dimensions on the whistle related to the actual wavelength of the sound...


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess it all depends on user preferences. Myself, if I wanted to hear simulated chuffing and whistles etc, I'd run sparkies. The lure of live steam is running a real miniature fully functional steam locomotive, and to me that includes listening to the actual stack talk, not something from a speaker. Besides, the stack talk and burner sounds tell you a lot about how the loco is running and if your fire is set right. Drowning that out with electronic noise means you can't hear those cues. 

To each his own - that's just mho. 

Bob - sorry I misspelled your last name.  I think your Bangham whistles sound great!!! And they are real steam whistles, not simulated!


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

I AGREE WITH YOU ON THE NATURAL SOUNDS I GET FROM MY STEAM ENGINES. I'M ONLY TRYING TO ADD WHISTLE AND BELL SOUNDS, CONTROLLED BY R/C (TO USE AT MY DISCRETION).
I WILL TRY TO GET IN TOUCH WITH WELTYK'S WHISTLES. I JUST DIDN'T HAVE MUCH LUCK WITH THE REGNER UNITS(EXCEPT ON REGNER TRAINS). FINDING ALL THE FITTINGS IS DIFFICULT ALSO. THOUGHT THE ELECTRONIC VERSION WOULD JUST BE SIMPLER.
THANKS
KEVIN 
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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Kevin, 
IF you have to add the bell sound, then please add the motion as well, as per Carl: 
http://tinyurl.com/72jtkdw 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Kevin,What Engine do You want to put a Whistle on?


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have done it also. Sound starts at about 1:35 into video.................Jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobdRjrr2Zk


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

It almost seems like a sacrilege to add sound to a live steamer, IMHO.


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

ACCUCRAFT FORNEY 2-4-4( WITH BRONSON TATE CAB ON IT), OR ACCUCRAFT CARADOC OR ROUNDHOUSE RUSSELL. AN ACCUCRAFT EBT OR C25 COULD BE ADDED TO THE LINE.
BOY DID I OPEN A CAN OF WORMS WITH THAT QUESTION.
THANKS AGAIN,
KEVIN 
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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Gosh Greg; 

I still have that Railroad Sounds album - 33 1/3 rpm on vinyl. Also have a small record AHM sold featuring the Reading T1s pulling Iron Horse Rambles. Don't play them too often these days, but our 41 year old Zenith stereo will still do that whenever I want to. It was neat to see that references to that album are still around. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm firmly in agreement with you Dwight... If I had a live steamer, I would probably be a "purist" and live with the whistle I could get, although I would be sorely tempted to have a bell recording on a 1:20 loco. 

I'd imagine you have a reasonable sounding bell on your loco... and whistle... but you have BIG stuff! 

Now, would I be tempted to have chuff? Yes, but I believe I would not do it for exactly the reasons you outlined, I would really like to know exactly how the loco is running... 

Greg


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's face it people. If it looks like a duck and quack's like a duck, it probably is a duck. As Dight and others hvae said. Listening to the sounds of real live steam is what it is all about. I really like the sound that my Aster C-62 makes when it chuggung along real slow.
As has been ssaid though, each to his own desires. It's your RR, do with it what you want.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd imagine you have a reasonable sounding bell on your loco... and whistle... but you have BIG stuff! Actually, the current whistle on my ride-on is a real peeper and needs to be replaced, and there's currently no bell on her yet, but the bell I have is completely non-functional. Like you said, you can't overcome the laws of physics and this particularly applies to bells. Larry Bangham came up with the first reasonably sounding steam whistles for 45mm by including a hidden resonance chamber much larger than the scale sized whistle could provide. Even the exposed Bangham whistle is larger than scale (if it isn't hidden altogether - something many opt to do), and the its resonance chamber is a dummy. 

A bell would be cool to have just for grins, but for me at least it would have to be reasonably scale and still produce a reasonable tone - which I don't think is gonna happen. hehehe


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder whether the bells used by handbell choirs could be adapted for 1:12 and 1:8 locomotives. The G4 and A4 bells I play have a pleasing tone, but they are not unusually large. 

Just a thought, 
David Meashey


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 24 Apr 2012 02:10 PM 
I'd imagine you have a reasonable sounding bell on your loco... and whistle... but you have BIG stuff! Actually, the current whistle on my ride-on is a real peeper and needs to be replaced, and there's currently no bell on her yet, but the bell I have is completely non-functional. Like you said, you can't overcome the laws of physics and this particularly applies to bells. Larry Bangham came up with the first reasonably sounding steam whistles for 45mm by including a hidden resonance chamber much larger than the scale sized whistle could provide. Even the exposed Bangham whistle is larger than scale (if it isn't hidden altogether - something many opt to do), and the its resonance chamber is a dummy. 

A bell would be cool to have just for grins, but for me at least it would have to be reasonably scale and still produce a reasonable tone - which I don't think is gonna happen. hehehe 


Dwight
There is a Southern Pacific small bell in an Antique sotre here Houston. Only 2275.00


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 24 Apr 2012 12:20 PM 
It almost seems like a sacrilege to add sound to a live steamer, IMHO. 
Agree Gary.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 24 Apr 2012 02:10 PM 
I'd imagine you have a reasonable sounding bell on your loco... and whistle... but you have BIG stuff! Actually, the current whistle on my ride-on is a real peeper and needs to be replaced, and there's currently no bell on her yet, but the bell I have is completely non-functional. Like you said, you can't overcome the laws of physics and this particularly applies to bells. Larry Bangham came up with the first reasonably sounding steam whistles for 45mm by including a hidden resonance chamber much larger than the scale sized whistle could provide. Even the exposed Bangham whistle is larger than scale (if it isn't hidden altogether - something many opt to do), and the its resonance chamber is a dummy. 

A bell would be cool to have just for grins, but for me at least it would have to be reasonably scale and still produce a reasonable tone - which I don't think is gonna happen. hehehe 


Dwight,

I put a Railroad Supply whistle on my Allen ten-wheeler. Under the cab on the fireman side. Like a tank for air on the prototype. I believe its a 3-chime, 1 1/2" X 13-14" long. Beautiful tone. Railroad Supply makes smaller ones you might try on your American.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary - My buddy Jesse turned a scale brass whistle for his 2-1/2" scale Eureka working off prototype drawings in "Modern Steam Locomotive Construction" and it sounds great. A slightly smaller version should work good for my Edwin E. Ennis and fit right on the steam dome.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 24 Apr 2012 09:06 PM 
Gary - My buddy Jesse turned a scale brass whistle for his 2-1/2" scale Eureka working off prototype drawings in "Modern Steam Locomotive Construction" and it sounds great. A slightly smaller version should work good for my Edwin E. Ennis and fit right on the steam dome.  Can't wait to see it AND hear it.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

It's funny the nuances that some people are bothered by. Personally I am a fan of the resonator whistles, particularly some of the designs that Larry Bangham himself came up with. He concealed a resonator, the whistle aperture AND the whistle valve inside the steam dome on a 1:20.3 scale C-16. This provided the added effect of seeing the whistle valve arm move out on the steam dome when the whistle was blown (by rc, the arm was pulled by a small linkage wire acting as the whistle pull cord and a servo in the cab.)

Some people may be bothered by the differences in sound between a full size whistle and a small scale resonator whistle, but sound systems have a sterile digital quality that cannot replicate the subtle variation you get from an engineer blasting an authentic steam powered whistle. For me, a digital sound system is like alcohol free beer: pointless.

Getting back to the subtle nuances that bother some but not others. I have always been annoyed by steam whistles that are disguised as air tanks or hidden in the under bellies of locomotives. I want to see that plume of steam rocketing skyward. For me that visual is just as important as the sound. It just looks weird to me to have steam spilling out of the underside of a locomotive during a whistle blast. Because of this I own two Larry Bangham whistles. I was lucky enough to be the first guy to ask him about making one for the Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay. My shay was pictured in Larry's article in Steam in the Garden. He also made a scale dual chime whistle for my 1:8n30 scale 0-4-0. Some of the members up at GGLS call it my "magic" whistle. It has a better sound than many larger locomotives AND the steam shoots straight up into the air when I give it a blast, just like a whistle should.

These, of course, are all just my opinions but one thing we probably all can agree on is that it is fun to have your locomotives make some noise! However you decide to achieve that I'm sure you'll have fun.

Regards, 
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## Jerrys-RR (Jun 21, 2010)

Perhaps the difference in what we expect/demand from a sound system is a reflection of how we relate to the hobby with regard to real locomotives. 

Some of us take ourselves and this hobby very seriously and try very hard to model the original prototype as accurately as possible. This may be to the point of rivet counting and other ways of wanting to be as accurate as possible to duplicating the original. Many if not most live steamers I have met seem to fall into this category. This is perfectly OK and I respect that.

Others (like me) do not take this hobby or how we enjoy it seriously at all. We see ourselves as grown men playing with toy trains (any and all kinds of toy trains). 

We like and enjoy things like Fortuna Flyers and running everything from 1:20.3 to 1:32 on our layouts and trying out everything from track power to battery power to DCS to DCC to Revolutions and even live steam. 

Perhaps if those who find our approach to live steam to be a sacrilege were more respectful and appreciative of our choice to participate in live steam (even if only to a minor extent) you might find more of us interested in becoming live steamers and some might even become Steamaholics.

The fact is that neither my Aristo live steam Mikado nor my LGB Mikado (or any of my other toy trains) really sound that much like a real full size locomotive. Because of this I installed an inexpensive stereo system in my crawl space with my layout. With the lights off and only the building and train lights for illumination I can play a Steam Sounds CD. With the stereo effect it sounds as if I am right at track side and about to be run over by a huge locomotive. 

IMHO it is less important how we enjoy our hobby as much as how we share our enjoyment of the hobby. Exclusion for any reason is an effective way to minimize or kill a hobby. Aristo-Craft no longer offers any live steam locomotives. One down. Those who might have started with an Aristo and moved on to Accucraft or Aster may never take the first step now (especially if they like electronic sounds).

Just one person's opinion.

Jerry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

but one thing we probably all can agree on is that it is fun to have your locomotives make some noise 
Agree with that. My EBT Mikado has a 'chuffer' which is quite noisy and you can hear the chuffs at low speed. Two problems: first was Mike Moore saying 'it sounds great, but not like a real steam engine' (!) and second - the real thing has a very soft chuff - totally unlike the Chuffer and more llike the original blast pipe. If it wasn't for the reduced oil spray, I'd put the original back! 

I'm not bothered by the idea of an electronic bell, air pumps, etc. After all, we're burning butane on a loco with no cut-off and a 'Chuffer' - which isn't exactly prototypical. But after Carl did that automated bell wobbler, it is just too much work keeping up with the Jones/Weavers.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps if those who find our approach to live steam to be a sacrilege were more respectful and appreciative of our choiceI don't think anyone intended to disrespect other choices - I know I didn't. Merely stating my opinion - as you just did. And I clearly labeled it as such...Then again, I'm a purist. hehehe and again...To each his own - that's just mho. Maybe you're just being oversensitive. One of the truly great things about this hobby is that there's no ONE CORRECT WAY to enjoy it.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, as Dwight pointed out no one here seems to be disrespectful. There are snobs in any hobby-- I mean I encounter friction sometimes at GGLS because I have 3.5" gauge trains instead of 7.5" as crazy as that sounds. On behalf of all live steamers let me apologize for the douchebags who may have told you not to go to Diamondhead with an electronic sound equipped locomotive. I agree with you that that is totally outrageous to "uninvite" you for something like that. I think that oppressing a minority in any club whether it is digital sound users, or 3.5" gaugers, is completely unacceptable behavior. And let me be clear: you using digital sound takes nothing away from my enjoyment in the hobby so more power to you!!

With that said, I have to say that your theory about purists, rivet counters and live steamers holds absolutely no water with me. Anyone who knows me and my roster of locomotives can see that I could not be further from a rivet counter. Modelling 100% accurate prototypes does not concern me. If I am a purist in anything I would call myself an experiential purist. I do not want anything impinging on my direct interaction with a 100% real working steam engine. There is one fact that is completely unassailable and that is that a recording of locomotive sounds playing through a speaker-- no matter how large, is only a simulation. That is all it will ever be; a mere representation of the real thing. On the other hand a live steam locomotive makes it's own sounds, and those sounds are that of a real steam engine working. I will grant you that the steam engine is small, so the sounds are also small, but it is a real steam engine and therefore it is creating real steam engine sounds. Period.


My day job is building interactive science exhibits for a local museum and all the exhibits I build are phenomenon based interactive where kids get to engage with real science and no simulation. So the exhibits deal with water currents, vortices, magnetism, fog, physics or whatever. My exhibits are always 100% authentic interaction with real science and no simulation. For me the live steam hobby has exactly the same authenticity. That is why a digital recording of a steam engine does not interest me.


A few years back a team of sound engineers from Lionel came out to GGLS and recorded the locomotives to consider using the recordings in the lionel train set for the simulated sounds in their train sets. Interestingly they found that the exhaust bark produced by the model locomotives is exactly the same as full size locomotives EXCEPT they are higher pitched. When they lowered the pitch on the recordings they could not be differentiated from a recording of a full size loco. Pretty interesting.


Regards,


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## Jerrys-RR (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi Dwight,

I was not referring to you or to anyone else specifically. Perhaps I was/am being overly sensitive but if so it is the result of some very harshly worded personal emails that I received when I first installed the LGB sound system in my Aristo Mike. 

As you said, to each his own. The only purpose of my post was to suggest that live steamers might attract more new Steamaholics if more of an effort was made to make those who prefer Sparkies feel equally at home among the live steamers.

This is not a big deal to me. It has been years since I last posted anything about live steam or went to Diamondhead.

Jerry


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## Jerrys-RR (Jun 21, 2010)

Posted By Eric M. on 25 Apr 2012 02:00 PM 
I have to say that your theory about purists, rivet counters and live steamers holds absolutely no water with me. Anyone who knows me and my roster of locomotives can see that I could not be further from a rivet counter. Modeling 100% accurate prototypes does not concern me. 

Regards, 



Hi Eric,

I did not mean to imply that live steamers were rivet counters but more (as Dwight said) "Purists."

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that and the concept of working with a real steam locomotive is what attracted me to buying the Aristo Mike. Perhaps the difference is that I am a lazy hobbyist. I prefer the ability to flip a switch and drive a train out of a siding rather than the chore (to me) of preparing and running a real steam locomotive. 

It is only natural for many if not most of us to feel that our particular way of enjoying the hobby is "the best" but I enjoy all ways equally. I thoroughly enjoy live steam and all that it represents - but for me I concluded that I prefer to enjoy it as a spectator sport letting others do all the work. Others like battery power, DCC, DCS etc. and I enjoy watching those as well. I have made a minor effort to try most systems and never did find one that made me want to give up the rest. 

I also have nothing against rivet counters - I find what they do to be beautiful but I do not have the patience and skill to do it myself so I sit back and appreciate the work others have done.

By no means did I intend to say anything offensive to or about anyone. I was simply saying that IMHO live steamers are of somewhat a different breed and their approach to the hobby can be purist in expression of how they enjoy the hobby.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

if more of an effort was made to make those who prefer Sparkies feel equally at home among the live steamers.But Jerry... they *aren't * equal!









Joke... That was - ahhhhh say, that was a JOKE son! (Foghorn Leghorn)


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 25 Apr 2012 03:55 PM 
if more of an effort was made to make those who prefer Sparkies feel equally at home among the live steamers.But Jerry... they *aren't * equal!









Joke... That was - ahhhhh say, that was a JOKE son! (Foghorn Leghorn)









Live steam is a tough crowd -- no slack.


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