# LGB starter passenger cars, why only two wheels?



## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

This may be a dumb question, but kind of curious. How come the LGB starter sets offer passenger cars with only single wheel trucks? Noticed in Bachmann starter sets passenger cars have duel wheel trucks. 

I would think Duel wheels would be more reliable then single wheel trucks. I am sure their are some limitations on min curves with dual wheels, but my Big Hauler passenger car can negotiate R1 curves (doesn't look the best, but does not derail).


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

LGB selected the cars because they are prototypically correct for short European rolling stock.

Actually the two axel cars are much worse on curves. The problem is that the axels themselves are free to pivot; it would appear that helps the wheels follow the curve, but it seems to result in more drag. These cars run terribly in reverse, and metal wheels or longer wheelbase make the problem worse.


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Couple of follow up questions:

If I were to get an older LGB starter passenger set; you recommend not replacing the plastic wheels with metal? I have an outdoor layout and was told metal was superior for outdoor layouts? In the process of replacing my Li'l hauler wheels to plastic (single wheel per truck).

Have seen some of these LGB passenger cars with lighting? How is this done if not using metal wheels? Will be running at night, definably want to light cars.

Someone told me the roofs on these car come off. They said their kids used to like to take the roofs off and add/reduce passengers. Is this true for all the passenger cars?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB has two holes in the back of most of their older engines. They had a wiring system that could be plugged into the engine and light the cars. Some cars like the brake van also had electrical pickups and plugs that could power lights in cars. The plugs wires and lights were all add ons. I did that to many of my early LGB cars.

Chuck

To be prototypical any metal wheels you use need to be spoked.

Yes, the roofs pop off.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I have two axel cars both "short" and "long" wheelbase, with both of those in both metal and plastic wheels. Metal wheels exhibit significantly more drag, and have more problems moving in reverse, especially through switches.

Here is the severity of mis-alignment of a locomotive and "long" wheelbase two-axel passenger car, as the train negotiates a pair of R1 switches:

RhB-2 by BigRedOne45mm, on Flickr


Here is the consequence of reversing a "short" open wagon with metal wheels through the same track. The wheelset is skewed due to the swiveling provision; the flange catches the guide rail, and derails:

RhB-5 by BigRedOne45mm, on Flickr


The good side of metal wheels is they add weight down low, which reduces the "wobbly" appearance of rolling stock. 

My suggestion is to replace one car's wheels at a time and then run both to see what you like. Running indoors on flat track, plastic wheels work better for me. My railway in the pictures is R1 and R2 (and I usually run the primarily R2 loop.) Try it yourself - it's your railway and your goals which matter.

The roof of the cars snaps right off. These are quite durable; I've received mail-order cars in pieces, but with the exception of one broken handrail, I could snap all the separated pieces back by hand.

Cars can be illuminated via metal wheels with power pickups - or batteries, or take power through the locomotive. I'll withhold commenting, since I don't yet have any illuminated passenger cars (it's something I want to do, but down the road.)


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The swiveling axles on the LGB 2 axle cars help the wheels and the hook n' loop couplers from interfering with each other around small radius curves. LGB's 2 axle cars are based on European prototypes. 

https://85f1967e-a-cedc6a7a-s-sites...ETRGOXrb3QE535WKUMmffHRv7QX8w=&attredirects=0

Andrew


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Thank you for all the information. I am going to have to rethink the plastic wheel stereotype. 

I know for my li'l haulers, the added weight to the cars and seam to work better (only been running on metal a couple of times). Will have to look at running them thru my R1 turnouts backwards.

Another follow up question.

In looking at the used LGB starter sets out there (wanting a Stainz engine) I have seen a lot of passengers sets with a red and blue passenger car (coach). In looking at add on coaches, looks like there are many styles to chose from and some don't looks like they match the starter set. Is there some sort of guide in getting add on coaches that match or is the intent to run a bunch of non matching coaches? i.e. a set of typical American line would be cars of the same color and road name. LGB starter typical starter has a Green Engine, Red and Blue coaches. Sean add on coaches in many other colors.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The 2 axle LGB coaches are modeled from different railroads and countries in Europe.
Some have different roof styles but with similar bodies. Just buy more the same color you want and sell the odd one unless you want a train to look like a rainbow.
I think the DEV 2 axle coach is nicer being a little longer.










Andrew


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

You've got a bunch of issues going on with matching cars. Railways changed color schemes, used color to signify what the car is (first class, second class, dining, baggage ...) Railways merged; private or provincial railways were nationalized. Equipment was captured in wars, given away afterward, or hastily and economically built to wartime orders. 

In the modern era, we see railways running "heritage" paint, and in Europe some are in commemorative or advertising schemes. To some degree there is surely repair shop work, use of materials on hand, and variation in color matching by different manufacturers and batches of paint.

In my avatar you see the current passenger starter set. I believe these colors are of the HSB line, though the models are not lettered as such. Model manufacturers are notorious for using available molds to make prototypically-incorrect models (of which an Americanized Stainz set is an example.) In many cases equipment deviates from actual prototype to enable it to operate with the rest of a manufacturer's line (and large scale seems to be the worst offender for this.) 

You can probably find an historical justification for quite a variety of color, especially if you are talking Europe in the first half of the 20th century. It's your railway, and there's no reason not to run what you like. Personally, in shopping used equipment, I'd pay more attention to good value - over time, those "incorrect" pieces may well find a home as you acquire more.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well

I guess this is about loving the small stuff as well as the really big long trains 
run what you like. Matching looks cool, but, so does an eclectic mix, if YOU like it. Buy enough and it will all be used and loved eventually.


I started liking the red and crème with a 'proper' black and red loco (stainz type with powered tender). It got a lot worse, as I liked it all...... 


I love the small starter set coaches as well as the stainz.

They are easy to handle and place on the track, easy to purchase for modest amount;
They match the stainz-they do exist in reality;
They are the most forgiving in terms of rough and tumble track, ie levelness and sudden changes in grade, little kinks etc.

LGB plastic, and that on the wheels, is different from any other-it is harder and virtually impervious to summer heat and hot rails.

Metal wheels are 'better' in that they seem to roll better and lower the center of gravity, but, as a con, they add overall weight, relevant on grades, wet track etc. IMHO they are not essential, and, they add a bit in cost.

I run these short coaches forward and backward, pushed and pulled-the only issue may occur catching a frog, or lousy track joint/gap especially on a curve, if indeed the swivel section is not aligned or worse, running askew. One aspect of lgb hook and loops is the loop, which really acts as a buffer when the car is pushed, giving a large surface area so that the car is not derailed, even if askew.

Yes if they run askew, drag is increased.

All this being said, I would not shy away one jot. I have far more issues with 4 axel trucks than two regarding rough and tumble track.

Remember, too, its not either/or. One can have these delightful short coaches, light them, and run them nicely on R1, using short sidings and tight little switches-that's the beauty of them. The other thing I take delight in, having a ton of LGB of all types, is, you can run a great little train for a small amount or money, and get about as much joy (or at least I do) as something big and impressive.

They have a unique look and if you like them, they're lovely. I also love them simply because they are so easy to transport, to place on the track, and to use, with peace of mind in terrible weather and other risky conditions because they are pretty affordable, and easy to clean.

The roofs are removable for lighting and figure placement. The little filigree supports are cool, but sometimes are missing in used ones. The are expensive to replace nowadays.

I have had my original 2 (now supplemented by an embarrassingly large amount of LGB) since 1986, along with the stainz, and I still run them regularly and enjoy them for simplicity, reliability and peace of mind if I choose to leave them out.

The quality is unequaled imho. Perhaps, the biggest bang for buck in terms of having a reliable, robust and forgiving garden railway.

I run metal and plastic. I have not felt compelled to retrofit all my stock.
lighting, via metal wheels and plunger pick ups, OR
via lighting socket on stainz _some don't have the socket
OR
buy the 3019 post van and use its lighting socket.

using the lighting socket basically results in a wire running between each car, to the over head lights , to the next car, and into a socket.

one can fit a single car with metal wheels for electrical pick up and then plug into the wiring for that coach or
use low draw LEDS and self contained batteries for each car, 

the older lighting was in essence like a series of extension cords, each with a lamp in the middle, you plug the ends into each other, and one end into the socket, or, in the alternative, attach one of the extension cords, via some sort of wiring, to metal wheels with electrical pick up-

I use the plunger types as I have a lot of them and they are inexpensive, but, the ball bearing wheel sets are so easy and superb and have no extra drag (which the plungers do in spades) - I prefer track power lighting, simply because I don't have to mess with batteries. if you were really clever, you could use track power to charge a battery pack and have the lights stay on even when track power is reduced or off, like in a station, or when halted.

lighting and tail lamps add a huge amount of interest in low light and at night-well worth the cost and effort imho.

hope this helps


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I havent tried it, and I might on my C&S bobber caboose, take some small self taping screws and "lock" the swivel axle assemblies to straight ahead. I already retrofitted knuckle couplers and dont see any issues on my R1 curves when coupled to a 4 axle car. You can hear the metal wheel flanges dragging when the axle stays skewed after exiting a curved section. That being said, it takes lots and lots of drag to really make a differance to my Stainz's speed. They really are a robust engine if not a total PITA to take apart for service. If you watch some vintage German, Austrian or most of Europe video over on youtube. Most rolling stock was 2 axle. Most of the train in Von Ryan's Express was 2 axle other than the engines tender and the rear passenger coach. Mike


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well, id be curious as the results of fixing the swivel bogies

Personally, but only speculatively, I think the swivel does more good than harm, and allows for the bumpers (loops) to align. This helps on curves when pushing and overall keeps cars from being pulled off the track if traveling through small radius s curves. And when pulled, other than an end car, most seem to pe pulled into alignment, more or less.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I did it, runs fine using LGB Knuckle couplers on R1 curves. Havent tried with loop coupler but caboose has that on the rear still, so I will try that next time I run the railway. It does fine with them fixed so far, I figured it would as my friend has a Bman bobber with fixed axles and it does fine on R1. I hear less flange to rail scraping with them fixed, where normaly the rear axle that has nothing hooked to its coupler to pull it back straight, would stay cocked to one side after a curve and scrape along as it went down the straight section. Mike P.S. You would have issues coupling on curves of that radius but not with normal trains running.


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Just a quick update. Today I purchased two LGB coaches (typical starter set, one red one blue). These things look great. Cannot wait to see on my layout. Very happy with purchase.

Only problem is I don't know which I prefer, the red or the blue.


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

Aug 29, 2014 update.

Got a chance to run my new coaches today. Overall 
I am pleased. My review is as follows

Pros
1) Looks nice
2) Good fit for my Stainz engine (future purchase)
3) No issue with R1 curves
4) Good colors. Today I prefer the red over the blue.


Con's
1) Little lite, has a few derailments. Going to have to add weight.
2) Connecting the lights up is a little challenging, very small plugs.
3) Lot of small detail parts. Looks great, concerns on longevity as will have to carry my trains in and out of house for running.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I've found my LGB products to be pretty durable, unless something unreasonable happens.

Also, parts are pressed together or attached with screws, so they are very easy to replace.

I've found metal wheels help with the "wobbly" appearance, as they add weight low - but I've found them to increase drag too much to work acceptably on R1 or R2. If you're derailing, I'd say there's a problem with your track which needs to be fixed.


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## Budd (Mar 22, 2008)

I have fixed the axles on 4 wheel freight wagons (which share the same underframe as the coach), but have problems on R1 curves if you fit double hooks or hooks to each end, they will derail, you need swivelling axles if you run double hooks so that the hooks don't bind.

Wayne


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## Blk69 (Dec 6, 2009)

My loner Stainz has no hooks. The my two LGB coaches only have one hook each. My derailments occur anytime something is on the tracks (piece of grass, etc.). Was hoping adding a little weight would help them stay on the rails. I have minimal grades (less then1%, level as possible) so hopping Stainz pulling power can handle the coaches a little heaver.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Easy to test added weight: just pop the roof off and put something inside the cars.

You should be fine with added weight in two cars on 1% grade.


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## wegkamph (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi,
see
http://www.ib-bb.de/index.php?mnu=8
for a solution to adjust the axes.
Both axes are coupled by a rod.
Hans


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well, I like both colors and had a partiality to the blue for one loco (steeple cab) 
and red with a black 2015

Frankly, short of carrying a brick, I cannot think of a more appropriate and robust car to schlepp in and out of the house (as do I). I have not found these cars need extra weight. You may want to check your track alignment and side to side levelness, and track joints. IF these are the issue, added weight is not likely to cure the issue, imho. It is my opinion and practice to avoid excessive weight. It will over time, cause more wear to the nylon gears on the axles. I would, if anything, try some large flanged Gary Raymond or LGB metal wheels for a bit more weight, lowering the cars center of gravity.

Simply, use some care. Don't lose the roof supports, be nice to the door handles, be mindful of the platform steps and they will last decades. I have made it a rule, to carry only one car in each hand, and for larger locos I use two hands supporting it from the bottom. I have been carefully schlepping locos and cars for almost 3 decades and all of mine are like new. Point is, some of these little parts are easy to treat nicely, and if you don't, you may find they are stupidly expensive to replace.

To avoid mishaps, simply eyeball the track before you run and clear debris and twigs. Run that first go at a modest speed. Excessive speed will eventually result in a derailment that may damages your rolling stock. I know this first hand. I don't run a loco at much over 15 volts tops anymore.
It doesn't take much to derail a loco, only a small twig, bit of pine lodged in a track joint gap, etc. 
I suggest that you add hooks to both the loco, and both ends of your coaches. Splurge on a set of electrical pick ups, or better still, LGB ballbearing wheels for one coach and use it for a power supply for the other coach, or, buy a 3019, add couplers at both ends, plug the lights into the receptacles on the 3019, and you have a separate 'consist' with power to the lights independent of the loco. Add a single red light to the 'front' of the lead coach, and voila , you have a consist, lighted, with a tail light(s) at both ends.

You can then run the loco at either end of the rake, ie pulling forward , or running 'backwards'. this allows an uncoupling, say on a passing siding, and a loco runaround, and pulling the opposite direction. I always enjoyed this, especially using the LGB sprung uncoupler and sprung /manual LGB switches-makes for a no hands run in, uncouple, back up and re-couple, and off you go operation.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Excellent advice Steve. I also find if I have derailing issues with 2 axle wagens on my railway, that I have a side to side missalignment of the track. This induces a twist and if its as the train goes into or exits from a curve, the unsprung 2 axle wagens and coaches will derail. Adding weight doesnt help and just wears axle boxes and the drive in the locomotive more. I do upgrade to metal LGB wheelsets in all cars before they go into service outdoors. It not only sounds better but helps keep the rails cleaner. Just like in smaller scales, plastic wheels wear and leave crud on the track. Espicaly true in G scale if your track is in the hot sunlight! I have a couple cars that are dedicated tail cars, ie they carry the lighted tail lantern. I had issues with the swivel wheelset getting stuck to one side. This caused more flange scraping noises and it would bounce when it went thru a turnout. I pilot drilled the swivel part and the carbody and used a small phillips head screw to lock the wheelsets straight. I have had no issues thru R1 curves including an "S" curve. The only aspect this might affect is if you like to switch cars into industries and its on a curve. The hook might not catch the loop of the other car without the swivel effect on R1 curves. Mikie


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