# LGB 21670 Track Cleaning Loco and Revolution TE



## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I just tried using a new LGB 21670 track cleaning loco (red) with the Revolution TE and 10 amp power supply. With it's cab switch in position 2 the loco moves forward and backward but the cleaning wheels do not turn. With the Revolution at 100% output the position of the speed control on the cab roof only seems to change the forward speed from 0 to max with no movement from the cleaning wheels. Is there an issue with the Revolution PWC output and the 21670 electronics? Has anyone else experienced this issue? Thank you in advance.

Wayne


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are using the trackside version? (there are on board and trackside models)

It sounds like you are, since there's no mention of an installation in the loco.

There are switches on the loco to turn stuff on and off, but my guess is that the PWM output of the TE is indeed confusing the decoder.

First, power it from straight DC, a car battery, and see if you get any movement of the cleaning wheel, and suspend that part, with too little voltage the cleaning wheels will not be able to turn and overcome the friction on the rails.

My first one had a decoder, and the cleaning wheels would not move until I got a higher voltage higher current supply.

Which brings me to my last question (this loco needs almost 24v on the rails) please describe the power supply you are using, either model number or voltage and amps.

Greg


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks for responding Greg. I know you have spoken about this in the past. Yes, it is a trackside receiver. The power supply that feeds the TE is a Crest Ultima 55460 10 amp, 18 volt unit. I may have an old adjustable power supply laying around somewhere. Even if it does work at closer to 24 volts I will still have an issue with the TE. I get the impression that the older orange units, without a decoder, don't have an issue but the newer red units, with the decoder, have caused issues for people with analog DC. Do you think the PWC to linear convertor would possibly solve this issue? It is cheap enough.

Wayne


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I had a yellow one with a similar problem and it was in the switch in the cab. It would work if you push on the switch. It was sort of intermittent and I sent it to LGB.

I bought the engine used and it was like this. They went over the engine and completely missed the problem.

Eventually I sold it on and the next owner e-mailed me to let me know that the rollers weren't going. 
I told him about the intermittent switch and he took it from there.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

The current functionality is pretty much the same in switch position 1 or 2. Loco runs but the cleaning wheels do not. I will see if the cab roof speed control works in position 1. Not that that's going to help me much. I also noticed that besides the cleaning wheels not turning the 2 flashing LEDs on the cab roof are not flashing. I wonder if these LEDs are to indicate that the cleaning wheels are turning? If so, then it could indeed be a decoder and Revolution PWC issue as opposed to not enough voltage. I guess I could always bypass the decoder or try the PWC to linear converter.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If it used to work on DC, it's unlikely the decoder changed by itself, and that decoder is very "dumb", I did work with it, and basically it only has address and I believe F1 on DCC turned the motor on and off.

Under DC it should work irrespective of the above. Get it on 24v DC... for now feed the crest ultima directly to the track with the loco on it... be sure to try it in both directions. (although cleaning wheels should only turn when going forwards, cleaning wheels forwards).

This test you can do now.

Greg


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks Greg. That does make sense and should be easy to test. The Crest Ultima puts out 18 v max but at least it will be pure DC. Ironically, I purchased the track cleaner to avoid having to do manual cleaning, especially the first run of the season. However, due to the issues described, I ended up using elbow grease and my sanding pole.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Properly maintained, they do a pretty good job. I purchased one quite a while ago, when I first started. I had made a test loop of 3 different mfg of brass rail.

In the first few weeks of operation, I learned:
1. brass rail oxidized overnight at my house (1 mile from ocean)
2. the LGB cleaning car took a lot of current and wanted voltage over 20 volts while eating a goodly amount of current.
3. My MRC 6200 power pack was a piece of junk, it put out neither the amps or voltage you would expect from reading the specs and advertisements.

I wound up going DCC and stainless rail, and the track cleaner went unused. Then I realized that it had a decoder in it and tried to control it. Even setting the DCC address was a pain, the decoder was really "stupid" and not easy to program, i.e. not real reliable from my NCE system.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The crest ultima is an unregulated supply and its output drops with increasing current.
I have a DC only track cleaner and run it from an ultima set to linear 27mhz Aristo train engineer and it runs real slow. Same engine on my 24 volt 27mhz runs great!!!
So, issue is most likely low power for sure and with the lights not blinking it is the PWC, this looks like a double edged sword!!

If possible, I would run this loco in cleaning mode on a 24 volt analog system to be sure there is no loco issue in addition to the ultima is not a good choice.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, it is unregulated, but 10 amps, so should be no issue for testing this loco.

Again, remember I said to test with the cleaning wheels in the air / lifted from the track.

He said the wheels do not turn, so let's check them in an unloaded situation. If they turn now, then it's almost surely low track voltage as you are saying Dan.

If they do not turn at all, which is what the op says, then it's a different issue.

Regards, Greg


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I just hooked up the Ultima (18 v, 10 amps) directly to the track. The running wheels turn as expected but the cleaning wheels still do not turn, even with them lifted off the track (yes, the loco is moving forward). The cab roof running speed control still is either no movement or full speed as I move it from min to max. My meter measured 24 v on the track with the running wheels slipping. I have to assume that the Ultima can provide enough current for both motors. So, I guess I can eliminate the TE PWC by itself as the cause. I still wonder if the decoder is the source of the problem, assuming that I don't just simply have a bad unit. I may try to disassemble the loco to check connections, etc. Bummer.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that the decoder drives the main driving wheels, so since they turn, at least that part of the decoder works.

I'd say you have a broken wire or bad motor. If it went out all of a sudden I'd vote the wire.

Take it apart.

Greg


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Greg, the cleaning wheels never worked. I tested the unit, which I purchased at Christmas time, just this week. I really want this to work so I agree that taking the loco apart and checking connections is the next logical step. Thanks for your help.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Started the disassembly. The LGB parts diagram doesn't show many of the screws holding the parts of the shell together. I did manage to break off the post where the front cleaning assembly attaches to the main unit. I epoxied the post back on with a metal rod in the middle for added strength. **** happens! Then I disconnected the cleaning motor from it's power leads. I attached a 12 v 5 amp DC power supply directly to the cleaning motor. The cleaning motor spun freely and I could not stall it with my fingers. Seems like 12 v and at least 5 amps is fine assuming that the decoder feeds at least that much. There is a 4 conductor cable from the decoder to the cleaning unit. 2 wires for the light and 2 for the motor. Interesting find. The 2 conductors for the motor were jammed under the cab shell and appear to be flattened. Next step is to check continuity to see if the flattened conductors are still intact and also not shorted together.
To be continued.......


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Everybody breaks that stupid post, do not feel bad!

Strange on the motor... so perhaps someone could program the decoder to not work on DC? CV29 can do this, but I think this decoder is much dumber.

Dan Pierce may have the answer, also search the forums via google on this, there may be some help.

My page is probably little help at this point:

https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=475&Itemid=538

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just enabled email notification to see what the outcome of this is.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It would be good to get the model number off the decoder, and somehow get a manual on the decoder.

Again, if I remember correctly I could enable/disable the cleaning motor with F1, but this was some years ago, and the decoder was really hard to work with. Actually, I ran it on DC for years and never knew it had a decoder. Only after reading that the later models had a decoder did I try to "talk" to it. Weren't there switches in the cab also? 



Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just read through this thread - let me throw my 2 cents in.

I have the original yellow LGB cleaning loco that is pure analog, so I can't add too much info but maybe it helps.

To start with, there were actually two red LGB cleaning locos, one was introduced in 2007 after Mr. Schöntag was chosen to take over the bankrupt company and the other was introduced in 2008 when Marklin took over.
The locos had the same product numbers - one can differentiate them by the number printed on the cab doors, "1" for the 2007 version and "2" for the later version.
It would be good to know which one we're talking about although I suspect the differences between them would be small.

Now since this is a one-motor loco (ounting driving motors), I assume it has the small on-board decoder inside.
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2394

To operate the cleaning wheels, the mode switch in the cab has to be in position 2 and it was already mentioned that this was the case.
When used on a digital layout, the cleaning wheels are controlled by F1, so the mode switch has to be in position 2 *and* F1 must be active.
I don't know if F1 becomes active in analog mode automatically or is bypassed, but once the loco is open one should be able to determine that by the wiring.

And Wayne mentioned that wires were pinched, hat alone may have caused the problem.

Knut


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

To the question as to what number is on the cab, 1 or 2, let me answer by saying "yes". The numeral 1 is on one side (closed window) and the numeral 2 on the open window side. Maybe LGB is trying to confuse us.  I did one quick test yesterday before stopping for the day. I reconnected the cleaning motor and, using that same 12 v 5 amp power supply, I applied power directly to the track pickup sliders. Much to my amazement both the running motor and the cleaning motor turned and the cab roof flashers flashed. The cab roof speed adjustment still seems to do little. This am I will bring the Ultima into the workbench and attach that directly to the sliders. Remember that the Ultima originally failed to turn the cleaning wheels when used outside in my staging yard. Stay tuned! BTW, the decoder looks much different from the one pictured. The only switch is the 3 position slider. I will also add that the pinched wire doesn't appear to have anything to do with the cab roof flashers which now correctly flash when the cleaning wheel is turning.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, the information I have about number "1" and "2" seems to be dead wrong.
I have to research that more.
It's still possible that Marklin used left over parts from the Schöntag production but it's more likely that the sides are actually called "1" and "2".
In any case, as I mentioned before, I don't think it matters.
But could you look at (or take a picture of) the bottom motor block - it should indicate if it's Marklin-LGB or not.

What surprised me a little bit is that the on-board decoder is not in the unit.
Can you take a picture of the decoder to see what you have.
And finally, seems to me the pinched wires were at least part of the problem. While powering the loco you can try to wiggle them to see if you get any intermittents.
In any case, I would replace them regardless.

Knut


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I attached the Ultima power supply directly to the track sliders and now everything works. Drive wheels, cleaning wheels and flashing cab lights. Then I reassembled the unit leaving off the 2 cab pieces and the cab roof. Still working. The next step is to go outside to the staging yard and try everything again. First with the 12 v power supply connected to the tracks (Revolution TE disconnected) and then finally with the Revolution TE. At this point the 4 conductor cable that was pinched under the cab housing is no longer pinched. If the DC power supply works and the TE doesn't at least I can use the power supply, with the TE disconnected, when I need to deep clean the tracks. Problem now is that everything outside is soaked after we received nearly 3 inches of rain yesterday. Either way, if the TE works or not, then I would say that the final diagnosis is a pinched, possibly shorted, cable that runs to the cleaning section. I guess I should consider replacing the cable but let's see what happens. Stay tuned.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

You should really replace the pinched wires before you assemble anything.
Sounds to me as if the copper conductor in the wire is broken - the two ends were separated when the housing was pinching the wire and now without the pinching the two copper ends just touch. That's why I said wiggle the wire to see if the power to the cleaning wheel is intermittent.
If you don't replace that wire you will end up with the same problem one or two years from now.

What's the story on the speed control on the cab?
That controls the speed of the loco - the cleaning wheels should always run at full speed when the loco moves forward and the cleaning wheels should stop when the loco runs backwards.

Knut


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Hey Knut. Here are pictures of the motor block housing and decoder. Sorry for the poor quality of the motor housing picture. The label says Marklin and LGB is molded into the plastic.
















Note the "ANALOG DIGITAL" sticker on the housing.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah, I know Knut, I really should replace that cable. Let's see if the TE works first. The instructions say that the speed control controls the forward speed of the loco while the cleaning wheels run at full speed. Mine doesn't seem to have any control over the running speed.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Once I get it running on the staging yard (TE or not) I will do the "wiggle test".


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Don't you have a linear setting on your trackside TE?
Mine has one and I always use that running LGB locos.

I can see the loco decoder "getting confused" if t sees a PWM signal.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so what changed with the cleaning motor did not turn and now it does?

Was it it the switch inside?

Do you have the manual for the loco now? I know it talks about the switch.

Just would like some closure on the cleaning motor not turning at all.

Greg

p.s. clearly that built in decoder is different from the other decoders "guessed" It seems to have the special circuitry to adjust the motor speed with the pot, which no other LGB decoder I have seen has.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> OK, so what changed with the cleaning motor did not turn and now it does?
> 
> Was it it the switch inside?
> 
> ...


The switch is supposed to be in position 2 and as far as I can tell, it always was - that's already mentioned in the very first post.

At this point I think it was simply the pinched wires.

One issue seems to remain and that is the control via the pot which doesn't seem to do anything.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Then all I can guess is the pinched wire, and if it is, then maybe the connection in the wire is suspect.

Something still does not make sense.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

krs said:


> The switch is supposed to be in position 2 and as far as I can tell, it always was - that's already mentioned in the very first post.
> 
> At this point I think it was simply the pinched wires.
> 
> ...



As I noted way back on page 1, the switch itself on mine was intermittent, and yours could be the same. Even LGB didn't catch the problem when I sent it to them for repair.

Simply shifting its position when "toggling" it may have restored its operation. Wiggle it around/slide it back and forth while watching the action of the cleaning motor to ensure this is/is not the problem.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I agree it doesn't all make a lot of sense. Not the first time someone has taken something apart only to find that it now works. Better than the other way around. I still need to do the "wiggle test" on the wire. Perhaps as suggested the slide switch was intermittent and with all of the manipulation the position 2 function is now working. BTW, in isolating the cleaning motor for testing I did have to slip the connectors off of the motor. Perhaps reseating them helped.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

If one had a schematic one could figure out where the problem was.

Since the flashing lights didn't work before either, I doubt the connectors on the cleaning motor had anything to do with this.
The switch and the pinched wires are the most likely culprits although I thought you had operated that slide switch a few times before since it was mentioned early in the thread.

When you do the "wiggle test" don't hesitate to move the wire on either side of the pinched area a lot - you want to be absolutely sure the conductor inside is not comprimised in any way.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Knut, do this now...


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

We have reached the final chapter of this saga.
On my outside staging tracks I disconnected the TE and temporarily hooked up my 12 v 5 amp power supply with the loco running in the forward direction. The running and cleaning wheels turned and the cab lights flashed. While I allowed the wheels to slip I vigorously wiggled the 4 conductor cable in the area of the pinched wires. There was no interruption of operation. I then moved the 3 position slide switch repeatedly from position 0 (loco off), position 1 (running wheels only) and position 3 (running and cleaning wheels) and once again there was no issue with proper operation. I removed the 12 v supply and connected the Revolution TE as is normal for running trains. Both the running and cleaning wheels as well as the flashing cab roof lights performed as expected. I ran the unit around my RR several times. The unit ran at a decent speed at the 24% setting on the TE. No, the cab roof speed control seems to do little but that really is no problem. The cleaning wheels turn at a very good speed. It looks like it takes about 3 passes to really clean uniformly. Sure beats my sanding pole. So, what the heck happened? All of the settings and systems are as I had them originally when the cleaning wheels would not work. The cable seems ok. Since others have had issues with the 3 position slide switch my vote is with the slide switch although that resolved after continued operation. Thanks to all who helped with the issue. We now also know that the LGB track cleaning loco will work with the Revolution TE and an 18 v 10 amp supply. I didn't even need to go beyond the 24% setting on the TE. Oh, and I am now an "expert" at disassembling the &%!*#! thing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good news for sure. My money is on the switch.

Congratulations!

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Wayne -
Glad everything is working now.

One question - did you ever try adjusting the pot when running with your 12 volt power supply?

The problem that the pot setting makes no difference when running with the TE may simply be the PWM power of the TE.

Knut


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Knut, to be honest with you, I don't remember if I tried the speed control with the 12 v supply. It's all a blur at this point.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would not be surprised if the speed control did not work "normally" on the PWM output of the Crest unit.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

On the LGB track cleaner the cleaner motor runs from track power but the drive motor in cleaning mode has the speed adjustment on the top of the cab for DC operation. Digital mode has speed control from the DCC station.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I know this thread has been inactive since May but the resolution of a recent issue with the LGB track cleaning loco may be helpful to anyone with the unit. After several months of perfect operation, the loco started to stop, wait for about a second, and then restart. Both directions, either with or without the cleaning wheels running. On the workbench, with power supplied to the pickups, there would be no interruption. I placed it on the tracks and let it run in place with wheels slipping. No issue until I "wiggled" the rear assembly where the main circuit board is located. I was able to reproduce the issue. So, I disassembled the unit (did I mention that I am getting good at this?) and found that if I moved the weight on top of the circuit board the issue occurred. Clearly the metal weight was hitting something on the circuit board and causing it to shut down for a programmed amount of time. I simply placed some electrical tape under the weight and the problem has been resolved. It's a good thing that I love this cleaning loco.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Noted this tip on my web site, thanks!

Greg 927


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

Did you ever get the loco speed control to work ?


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

No, not via the speed control knob on the top of the cab. The TE does a good job of controlling the loco speed and the cleaning wheels just seem to spin at a constant rate regardless. When the track is not too tarnished I run the loco in the reverse direction with no cleaning wheels spinning towing my Aristo Track cleaning caboose. The sliding pickups on the LGB loco allow it to make it through most dirty track sections where my lighter Bachmann locos would fear to tread.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

In DC mode the track cleaning loco cleaning wheels run at the speed of the dc input voltage. The 'speed' knob is for DC operation of the engine speed, not used in DCC mode.
The main board in this loco has either a built in decoder, or if an older version a plugin 55020/55021 is used. The cleaning loco never used the onboard decoder, just a special only used in the cleaning loco board with decoder and there were 2 different versions.
So, I have the following:
1. original 2067 had DC only (3 wire interface) board
2. next was a 4 wire version that could have a decoder (55020/55021) added. (decoder ready)
3. Unique board with decoder and there was 2 different versions.


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