# turnout stability: a lesson learned



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm a newbie, constructing my first garden layout. (7 months into construction as of Nov. 2012) 
My plan is to float the track on 3/8" gravel. The lesson learned is that my turnouts need better support. They just wouldn't stay flat on the gravel base. (And 2 axle passenger cars just don't like wonky track work.) I had to put cement pads under each turnout to keep them firmly planted. Not yet sure about the rest of the track needing a similar base. But I thought my experience would be helpful to any other newbies. Ken Silva, Phoenix, AZ


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Funny, down here in Tucson I had no such problem ... of wait you us turnouts and I use switches, could that be ...? No just sad early morn humor. 

Seriously, the only concern I have is keeping gravel away from the points and throwbar, other wise no problems. 
I wonder if your ballast is getting washed away and how thick is your ballast. Are you using broken rock? Smooth river rock won't lock in around the ties and moves away the fastest. 
The old way we secured unsprung trucks to cars was for one end to be snug and the other truck fairly loose, which gives the effect of a 3 point suspension and will track better than 2 loose trucks and car won't wobble as much. 
I'm glad you found a solution. 

John


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ken 
I have been doing just what you discovered for years now. In fact I thought it was such a brilliant idea I sent it into garden railways for the Tips and Tricks column. I don't remeber what month it was published? I had found that by putting a 2x8x16" patio paver under the switch it gave it a nice level and solid base to rest on. By having it seat on a block it is also easier to keep debri away from the points and mechanism. When things get really dirty say after a big rain storm I can hit the switch with the garden hose and not worry about ballast flying away. 
I also free float my track in grey 3/8 gravel adn sometimes it does get a bit wonky but I know when it gets to a turnout it will be nice and level. 
Happy RRing


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

My plan is to float the track on 3/8" gravel 
Ken, 
I don't know where you got the idea that 3/8" gravel was good. I used 4" of crushed rock (= rock dust - #9 fines.) A trenching shovel from HD was exactly 4" wide and made the base easy to dig. 

And 2 axle passenger cars just don't like wonky track work 
Any 4-wheel device will work better if one axle is allowed to pivot about its mid point so the attached wheels can move up/down with the track. It's the 3-legged stool principle - the stool will sit formly on any surface.


----------



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hey, CC Todd, that's exactly what I bought at Home Depot, the 2X8X16 caps. I simply cleared away the ballast and set and levelled the blocks and set the turnouts directly on top. Now, regarding the rest of the track, keeping it level, side to side on curves, on the 3/8" ballast (crushed and jagged) is proving troublesome. I'm thinking that the 1/4 fines will solve this by locking the track in place. But, if I do this, expansion and contraction in the heat will be a problem, I've been told. I bought a pair of "expansion tracks" in hopes this will fix that issue. I'll know by next July. 
PS To Totalwrecker, I use points, being a closet UK/Australia modeller, and not really turnouts or switches at all.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Up here in New River AZ I started off with steel plates under my switches.....Then I went to Concrete Road Bed under everything. Just got to keep them level side to side. 

JJ


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I free float my track. 

At first I believed that i needed a flat base under my switches. 

I used the waterproof backer board, but soon the ballast worked between the ties and the board. At this point I could either secure the switch firmly to the board to keep the gravel from working underneath it or float the switch. 

(realize that the normal expansion and contraction will work the ballast under the ties). 

After reading a lot more posts, it seemed that all I really needed was a good base of ballast and subroadbed. Many people who had problems with switches not staying level had ballast that was not compacting and staying put, often because they used relatively smooth "pea gravel" 

Getting sharp-edged pieces of ballast, no matter what the size, was the answer. 

I have since removed all of the backer boards under switches, and it's BETTER... because levelling the backer board, or trying to follow concrete heaving up and down or shifting was a mes. 

Look to see if you have other factors causing pressure on the switch. Check to see if your ballast is compacting and firm. 

Those are my suggestions... 

Regards, Greg


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ken Your track doesn't have to be 100% level to run trains on so maybe you are worrying too much. I'd say put your blocks under your turnouts to level them and then keep floating your track either with the 3/8 or the 1/4 gravel. I have found with using crusher fines that they do wash away but then again I didn't follow the normal way of track laying by digging a trench and filling it with fines since my track plan was always changing. Being in Arizona your track wil be subjected to alot more heat and expansion than mine ever will on Cape Cod so using the expansion joints is a good idea. When you put the expansion pieces in be sure to remove the screws from the underside of track that leads up to the pieces to allow the track to slide in its tie holders. Free floating your track will allow it to move around a bit. What you don't want ot do is cement it or screw it down but you can in a few spots like going over a bridge as long as it can move at either end. 
I have been using blocks for years under my switches and I have had to straighten some of them a few times but overall I think they are a good to help keep the swithes clean and clear and of course level.


----------



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

My roadbed is essentially in a trench. . .there's a cement block wall on one side and I built up a cement block retaining wall on the other side of the track. Then, I filled with dirt, compacted it, topped it off with crushed 3/8" gravel and set the track to float on top of that. The cement blocks on each side of the track will hold the dirt and ballast in, so rain (if we were ever to get any here in the desert) won't be washing it away. I'm considering getting some 1/4" crusher fines as the final step to fill in any undulations by simply pouring it over the top of the rails and hosing it down. I'm thinking that it will provide a little firmer and more stable base for the track than adding more of the 3/8" crushed gravel between the ties. What do you folks think of this as a plan? It can't wash away to the sides due to the block walls, but can it eventually wash down through the gravel? Or will it always remain on top? 
Ken S. (OP) 
Phoenix, AZ


----------



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Forgot to mention: One of my trains is Thomas and his 2 carriages. I've found that a carriage with only 2 axles is very unforgiving on rough track. They need almost perfectly flat rails to not derail. The North American (USA Trains) freight cars with standard 2 axle trucks on each end will run without a problem over the same undulating track that derails the Thomas train. Just something I've learned these last couple of weeks. Thomas is the reason I'm trying so hard to get my track perfectly flat. 
Ken S. (OP)


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken, I found that adding 6 to 8 oz of weight (I used fishing weights) to Annie and Clarabel. That greatly improved their track ability. Chuck


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By avlisk on 11 Nov 2012 05:47 AM 
Forgot to mention: One of my trains is Thomas and his 2 carriages. I've found that a carriage with only 2 axles is very unforgiving on rough track. They need almost perfectly flat rails to not derail. The North American (USA Trains) freight cars with standard 2 axle trucks on each end will run without a problem over the same undulating track that derails the Thomas train. Just something I've learned these last couple of weeks. Thomas is the reason I'm trying so hard to get my track perfectly flat. 
Ken S. (OP) 
Try loosening up the screw that attaches the trucks to the body. This will allow the car to rock some and the truck to follow the track. 

JJ


----------



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, I've done that (loosened a truck's screw) on freight cars on old HO layouts, and that does, indeed, work. The problem with a 2 axle carriage like Annie and Clarabel is that there's nothing to loosen up. The side frames are fixed. There's a good video from Intercity82 on YouTube that shows a model of a British work train. One of their wagons is a 2 axle wagon specifically designed that way (with 2 axles, as far apart as possible) because it's a design that's so unforgiving on bad trackwork. 
Ken S. (OP)


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken: One other problem with Thomas's girls is that the hook and loops are body mounted, not truck mounted. I and others have had problems with keeping them on the track if the curves are 4' diameter (2' radius). Some have said that they work on Bachmann's short radius track, but they didn't like my LGB R1 curves. 

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I gather there is no suspension at all on the 2 axle cars?

Greg


----------



## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

No suspension at all on the Thomas rolling stock. And the axles are fixed in the side frames. They don't swivel, either. I'm running 10' diameter USAT track but with Piko #5 R turnouts, which they tell me is around an 8' diameter curve, but looks really close to the 10' USAT when placed directly on top of each other.. 
Ken S.


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I put mine on lengths of 2" x 8" wood long enough so that the turnout and a bit of the lead in tracks are on the board, so all can be screwed down to the board using brass screws keeping it all together.

Before the boards were placed, they received a throurough coating of roofing tar on all sides. Then a sheet of grey stone-impregnated roofing paper is placed over the top of the board and the turnout atop this. 

Because the roofing paper matches out granite ballast, I can ballast lightly around the delicate portions of the turnouts, and it is not noticable. These have been inplace since early 1997 without a single failure, even though they get watered 3 times a day.


----------

