# British / American loco size



## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

There are a lot of folk here in the UK who are enthusiasts for US steam and it would appear from this forum that this also works in reverse with some Brit steam in the US.
I would be interested to hear as to whether the relative smallness of British outline, whilst running on the same track gauge is in anyway a put off for American enthusiasts.

Some of my friends who, like me enjoy the size of US stock, whilst others feel it is a bit over scale when running in a British environment .

I mention all this as the Gauge one Great Western City class in the picture and on the video does give the impression of being diminutive when you are used to the 'big stuff' though I hope you will agree that it has the style as indeed do the rake of early clerestory carriages. The engine is spirit fired. What do you think?

http://youtu.be/FcQROtloxbw


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

I must disqualify myself from commenting. A native Californian who builds American-outline rustic narrow gauge stuff to 16mm scale. And I drive a Mini Cooper. (Also learned to drive in a Vauxhall.) 

Steve


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The two foot gauge engines seem similar. the smallest Welch engines are smaller than smallest Maine two footers, though there were some industrial engines that were smaller. I bet the largest Garretts and Double Fairlies were larger than the largest Maine Narrow gauge engines which were 2-6-2 (SR&RL#23 and 24 were the biggest)

Here is a photo of my 1:20.3 scale Portland Co. engine (a smallish Maine Forney) and L&B Lyn (for course-built in the ol" USA) for comparison.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Let me get this straight. Are any of us on this side of the pond really into Gauge 1 British trains? Let me see...












And finally... 





I think so.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Is there that much difference in size?








Oh yes, I guess that there can be!!!!!
I find that a lot of people like to model what they remember as a child. Ex pats in the US 'may' have an interest in UK models.
Others like to model a particular railway/railroad that interests them for no particular reason.
And still others just buy whatever is available, whatever side of the ocean it may be a model of.
I was born in the UK and grew up in a house backing onto the old Midland line from St Pancras, and at first all my Gauge 1 was UK prototype, but I always had an interest in Canadian railways.
Then when I started to rebuild the Aster Hudson into a Canadian Pacific loco, I began down a path to 'specialize' in Canadian railways. 
Then of course Accucraft helped with the Royal Hudson.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David 

I consider your photo a little "dishonest comparison". A K-36 in 1:20 versus an LMS Jumbo in 1:32. ALL that demonstrates is the substantial difference in loading gauge required to run the models together. 

IF the K-36 was in 1:32 scale, it would be only marginally wider [because of the plow]. If we assume that typical loading gauge [width] for UK standard gauge was typically about 9 feet [discounting the SR Hastings line,...], The D&RGW narrow gauge was about the same. Clearly, North American Standard gauge was quite different. 

I was never "put off" by the size of the British locomotives, I just thought all those locos with inside cylinders "looked strange". You get over it after you do some reading and understand why things were done the way they were.


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## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

I would imagine it is all a preference of the individual rather than size. The great thing about 45mm is that no matter how big or small your engine is, you can still carry it.

Naturally Engines from Europe especially the UK tend to be much smaller than the US engines, as do their rolling stock. Not much you can do about that.

An interesting note that gives you an idea of the difference in locomotives:

The most powerful British Steam locomotive the BR Standard Class 9F had a total weight (including tender) of 140 tons. This made it capable of just under 40k lbs tractive effort.

The American NARROW GAUGE K-37 weighted 92 tons (not including tender), and was able to achieve 37k lbs tractive effort - just slightly less than that of the largest British locomotive ever built. And the K-37, although being a very large narrow gauge engine, was tiny by US standards.



Long story short, we model what we enjoy - I highly doubt size how anything to do with what locomotives people pick.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Lady Anne 
Jane 
Millie 
Mamod Loco + Traction engine --------Accucraft Mogul,3 modified ruby's,@cyl shay,Aristo Mikado,+ some more homebuilds 

Great Runners running small engines for fun ,watching big engines for scale 

Manfred


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Shyvers on 27 Oct 2011 04:56 PM 
I must disqualify myself from commenting. A native Californian who builds American-outline rustic narrow gauge stuff to 16mm scale. And I drive a Mini Cooper. (Also learned to drive in a Vauxhall.) 

Steve 


Steve, no need to disqualify yourself, especially considering your choice of personal conveyance! I am amazed at how much 1:20.3 rolling stock and locos I can fit in my Cooper!
It's also very strange how some of us come to settle on a paticular selection of railroading. My first loco was a Frank S, and my wife approved of the colorful engine and rolling stock. (My Bumble Bee also filled this bill.) The Frank S needed a stable mate so along came a REGNER Wangerooger, now there's a Prignitzer almost ready and the upcoming beast of a loco... the 99-222! (I still haven't decided on where my 10mm/foot Green Arrow V1.5 fits in.)

I'm planning on having separate buildings that fit on the same sized pads so that Cripple Creek can become Neuffen or Trossingen.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Of course the question of British and American locomotives is one of taste. Some men like petite women, and some like big ones; there are those who like both. My own taste is eclectic. I'm a big fan of certain American 4-6-4s and 4-8-4s. I also rather like certain British and European designs. One fantasy is to have a large-scale GWR Dukedog named Earl of Blandings. 

Because the British lines were built very early with elaborate civil engineering - think raised platforms - clearances are tight and not easily enlarged. On the Continent things are bigger. The United States and Canada supplied over 1,200 Liberation Mikadoes to the French National Railway at the end of World War II because French motive power had been trashed. The Mikado design was lifted from an Alco design for the Green Bay & Western; it wasn't American super power but a good design for an American secondary road and just the right thing for France. 

We Americans tend to be a bit provincial and to root for the home team, but sometimes we overcome our provincial prejudice. Many years ago ex-LNER 4472 came to California. An American railfan of my acquaintance said he had always considered British steam to be dinky and effete, but Flying Scotsman was the most beautiful English racing bicycle in the world.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Dave. I really like British mainline locos and rolling stock, and appreciate that so many out here in California have collections of these that I can watch run now and then. Since dabbling in home-built coal firing the style of loco seems to have become secondary to just getting the loco as a system to run well. I like your car (and yes they will fit a surprising amount of gear) but don't care for the all-covering white yard decoration. 

Steve


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

It's _KINDA _rare here, that's why I took the pic. I also agree on the coal firing. My Accucraft C-16 alcohol boiler build was my gateway to coal fired boiler production, but I bought a broke slip roll on ebay and I'm having a difficult time replacing the gears.

Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.

(Now if I could just find some inexpensive British rolling stock kits, I might take another look at that upcoming Flying Scottsman!)


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

small Logging engines and Brit main line have a smaller boiler and need a bit more supervision when running


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Not put off at all, although the scarcity of scale British coaches costing less than a used car is a problem


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Some informative replies on this topic with a surprising amount of British outline trains running.

A couple of things that 'caught my eye' in particular was Tom Myers Mallard running at Diamondhead hauling what I would consider extremely rare LNER Coronation blue and silver part articulated set.I owned a set of these myself some years ago now, complete with beaver tail, but sold them to a dealer in London.
Whatever happened to them?

The other point about comparing tractive efforts between the US and UK.The most powerful loco on this side of the pond was the LNER six cylinder Garratt with a surprising TE of 72 940 lbs.

There is a link here to a web page to a Pathe News film of her roll out at Gorton (Nr Manchester)

http://www.lner.info/locos/U/u1.shtml

Shame there was only one made 





http://www.lner.info/locos/U/u1.shtml


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Clarification on the Scotsman/Mallard video...

The Scotsman was mine. I wish the Mallard were. 


That Coronation Train could be the most beautiful train I have ever seen. It belonged to, and was run by, Barry Harper. We ran them side by side to please the crowd. It seemed to work.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe Barry's Coronation Train was built by David Leech; he also built one for Jim Burns.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan,

I know Barry was a Tenmille distributor, so I thought his coaches were Tenmille kits that he put together, but I could be wrong. Perhaps David could weigh in on this.


The GR coach and auto-coach that I pull with my Pannier were Tenmille kits that I purchased from Barry. I have many compliments on how good they look. I always tell people I take full credit--_*for being*_ _*smart enough to have Barry assemble them for me*_.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I did NOT build Barry Harper's Coronation train.
Tom, I believe that you are correct, in that he built it himself.
Just to give anyone who is interested some background about the real train, of which there were two sets, plus a spare set less the observation.
Each train set consisted of four, two car articulated cars lettered A to H, plus the observation car.
The Observation is a very unique design, and quite different to even the Hiawatha shape.
But it is rather a 'sexy' shape. 
Passengers complained that they could not see anything but the track out the back, so eventually the two cars were rebuilt with a higher rear window which I think really ruined them.
One of the preserved cars is being rebuilt back to it's original form, to be finished next year, so I read.
All the best,David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking of Barry Harper, has anyone heard from him? He was an old gentleman when I met him, and that was 20 years ago, so I wonder if he is still with us.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

He is indeed Tom. I am in touch with Ellen his daughter every so often. Sadly several years ago Jean contracted Alzheimers and then a year or two later Barry started down the same route, but they still live in their own home with the help of outside care. I will contact Ellen for an update. 
David M-K
Ottawa


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that, David. Barry is a nice guy, and was always helpful. I remember Jean from DH. She was an absolute sweetheart. They will both be in my prayers.

Another person I haven't heard from recently is a fellow, (to you), Canadian, Geoff Coldrick. I still have one of his Shays. In a time of mass built Shays, his hand built locomotives are real treasures.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been a member of BRMNA (British Railway Modellers of North America) since October, 1977. I still have a display case with some of my OO models displayed within. Alas, I no longer have a place to run them, but there are even some Wren wagons lurking in my collection. (Yes, I know that Canadians and those who migrated across the pond refer to them as DoublO, but I only knew them as Wren.) One of my most prized OO trains is a Lima second generation HST with the full rake of passenger stock (not the abbreviated versions that were sold as sets). It used to fly along the track of the now-defunct HO layout that was once in our transportation museum in Wasena Park. 

I realize that the loading gauges were quite different for the British and American systems, so the size relationship does not bother me. 

Have fun, 
David Meashey


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason I have always liked British trains had nothing to do with the size, although they are easier to carry than say a Big Boy, or especially a K-28. I like them mostly because...

You don't typically see them in the US, where most of our steam locomotives are black, (and usually dirty).
They make very good looking trains, as you can see here...


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom 

As opposed to: 

a] The Southern Pacific Daylight 
b] The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha 
c] The New York Central 20th Century Limited 
d] The Pennsylvania Fleet of Modernism 
e] The UP 49er 
f] The UP Portland Rose 
g] The Canadian national black and Pullman green cars 

and others.. all powered by steam locomotives, not black. 

Admittedly, in the UK, the Big Four and its predecessors had many more beautifully painted trains than on this continent.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim,

Point taken, although I did say *most*[/i], not* all*[/i].


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Scale 1:1; Standard Guage, Narrow Gauge Respectively 











Fn3 and F Scale Reespectively (1:20.3)











Scale 1:1; K-36 NG locomotive - SG Boxcar - NG Consist










Size matters within a scale where fidelity to scale, reflecting 1:1, is very important. Between scales size doesn't matter unless it matters to you.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 31 Oct 2011 03:41 PM 
Tom 

As opposed to: 

a] The Southern Pacific Daylight 
b] The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha 
c] The New York Central 20th Century Limited 
d] The Pennsylvania Fleet of Modernism 
e] The UP 49er 
f] The UP Portland Rose 
g] The Canadian national black and Pullman green cars 

and others.. all powered by steam locomotives, not black. 

Admittedly, in the UK, the Big Four and its predecessors had many more beautifully painted trains than on this continent. 

Jim
I think the US locomotives could give the UK a run for the money both in color and beauty...to add to the list

LV Black Diamond
ATSF Blue Goose
CNJ Blue Comet
Southern 1401
Jupiter 
INYO
C&O 490
NYC Hudson 5453
Eureka
GN Northern S1 and S2 
Challenger in grey liverymany more can be added to the colorful locomotives of North America


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

In Britain the policy of beautifully finished locomotives was started by George Stephenson. One reason was to overcome objections by those who saw railways as desecrating the countryside. This included the wealthy and titled owners of great estates, some of them members of Parliament, who had to give permission for the railway to cross their land. A really good-looking locomotive made the prospect of having trains running across the meadows less objectionable. And in the United States early locomotives were elaborately finished though sometimes garishly. 

The turn toward black locomotives began during the panic of 1873. The New York Central & Hudson River had a locomotive named Commodore Vanderbilt which had the great man's portrait on glass on the sides of the headlight so they lit up at night. The engine also had lots of highly polished brass. Some minority stockholders claimed that the brass was actually gold-plated and that their money was being wasted on frills. The Commodore ordered that all the company's locomotives would be painted black and brass decoration kept to a minimum. Other railroads went austere in the Panic of 1893 to keep the stockholders peaceful. 

In the 1920s the president of the (American) Southern had a vacation in Britain, saw the lovely locomotives, and had his passenger power painted green when he returned. A few other lines also went for colors, particularly for passenger service, other than black before the streamliner era. E.g. the Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac favored Confederate gray, which was appropriate on named engines like Governor Thomas Jefferson and General Robert E. Lee. 

The streamliner era saw an explosion of color. One cynic observed that streamlining was originally a scientific effort to improve mechanical efficiency by reducing wind resistance but quickly became an effort to improve passenger revenue by reducing ticket sales resistance. Some of the jobs were lovely and some were just dreadful, but they did make a splash and help business.


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## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi,

Here's a drawing fromn the most interesting book "Anatomy of the Steam Locomotive - International" by Adolph Giesl-Gieslingen, printed in Vienna, Austria, in 1986.

It shows the loading gauges of
American C&O #1610
English GWR Castle Class
Japanese JNR Class C62 
Hungarian Railways MAV 424 (typical size for a loco from Continental Europe),
all drawn to the same scale, of course

Modellbahn

The difference in size of the prototypes is apparent!
The first two locomotives have been made by ASTER to the same scale of 1:32, nevertheless the Castle is dwarfed by the Allegheny.

Michael


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

And let us not forget that some American lines had greater clearances than others. Erie was originally 6' gauge so that it could handle large loads that the NYC couldn't. Its big steam had to clear the tunnels on the original Hudson River Rail Road, which to this day haven't been enlarged. The extreme example of the effect of tight clearances is the NYC Niagra, which is wonderfully sleek in consequence. And look at the SP GS 2-6. The loco stands considerably taller than the round-edged top of the tender water tank, which matches the tops of the streamlined coaches. Just look how a Santa Fe 4-8-4 towers over its train, especially with the stack extension in place. Standard dimensions for passenger equipment were set by the clearances in the approaches to Grand Central and Pennsylvania Stations in Manhattan. 

Oh, and my favorite non-black American steam are the Baltimore & Ohio President Pacifics. Baldwin finished them in dark olive green with lots of chrome yellow lettering and stripes so that they were very close in effect to the English Southern Railway's locos in Maunsell dark olive and chrome yellow.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...where most of our steam locomotives are black, (and usually dirty). 









And what's _wrong_ with "dirty?"  

In all seriousness, I'm not put off at all by the diminutive size of the UK stuff. They built 'em smaller over there, that's all. The nature of most steam-up tracks is that they're for the most part "scale-less" environments. I think we're used to seeing a K-36 with a string of cattle cars running right alongside a Pannier with three passenger cars in tow. Now, if you were to put buildings on the railroad, one or the other would be horribly out of place depending on the scale of the buildings, but even then we have a tendency to overlook that in favor of a really good-looking train. (Hint: Don't expect your K-36 to fit through the station platform of your friend's 1:32 replica of Paddington Station.) Myself, I love seeing the "spit-and-polish" passenger locos with a proper train in tow. I've just decided to focus my modeling energies on a very specific prototype. I'll enjoy others' interests vicariously through seeing their models. 

Later, 

K


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, I've been very busy with my "first of the month" duties at work. I see that some of the subject matter has turned to colorful North American steam locomotives. So, let me offer my personal favorite, the Reading Crusader.










Bet that locomotive kept the cleaning crews busy! Not exactly the Garter Blue of an LNER A4, but still nice.

Have fun,
David Meashey


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