# Bachmann C19 lack of traction..Bullfrog Snot' a solution?



## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

I have one of these fine locos but my layout is giving it a bit of trouble.

I have some VERY heavy inclines due to the topography of my garden. These are certified about 10% (1 in 10). 
Well a three truck shay can haul 8 Bachmann short log cars with a logger caboose up the slope. And a Big hauler can drag one car on its own but more if I add in one or more of my motorised 'helper' stock cars or motorised passenger combine. Of course Aristo and even better due to traction tyres, USAT, diesels make easy meat of it and if double, triple or quad headed they can pull reasonable length trains (okay not near what they would do on the flat but enough length for me).

Well the new C19 can just about pull itself with out wheel slip. The tender is pretty heavy with all of the electronics, metal bogies, weights etc so that is already a good load for the little loco to grapple with on a slope.
Two loco axles are blind so they do not add much traction into the equation. I was wondering...
Of course I could add in the motorised 'helper' cars but...
What about adding extra pick-ups to the tender wheels and then using 'Bulfrog Snot to one axle of the flanged loco driver wheels?

Has anyone had similar issues with gradients at all with the C19?
Has anyone used 'Bullfrog Snot' with success on G scale kit especially steamers? I have seen the one Youtube vid of an Aristo C16 and how its traction has improved with the 'Snot' but was wondering if any members of the forum have used or seen it used in the flesh
Also how long does it work for before it just cruds up?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

10% grades for a C19 is way too steep! You would be pushing it at 3-4%. Shays were made for this kind of grade, NOT a rod engine.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

10% is a very steep grade for a locomotive with such large drivers. 

All 4 axles in the tender already have electrical pickup and adding extra pickups will only increase drag. 

I might suggest the following. 

1) remove the steel weight bars from the tender. (a lighter tender will reduce the load on the locomotive.) 

2) add more weight to the locomotive. (more weight more traction) 

3) Assuming you are operating the C-19 on 8' or greater diameter (it will operate on 5' diameter) you can increase traction slightly by removing the bottom plate on the locomotive and removing some material in the spacers below the blind drivers. These spacers are to lift the blind drivers to rail height so that the locomotive can go around 5' curves. 

Hope that helps 

Stan


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem isnt the locomotive.. 
the problem is simply the grade..its just way too steep.. 
you cant fight physics.. 

Scot


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yes, but the grade is what it is. Asking him to change his layout isn't one of them. I second what Stanley said, try to decrease weight on the tender and possibly add it above the drivers. Its what the big boys did.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jake3404 on 05 Aug 2013 03:55 PM 
Yes, but the grade is what it is. Asking him to change his layout isn't one of them. I second what Stanley said, try to decrease weight on the tender and possibly add it above the drivers. Its what the big boys did. 


I have to agree with Scotty. The big boys could not change their grades on logging railroads. A 19% grade equates to a logging railroad. The big boys used Shays. They didn't use C19's. Physics IS physics. If his yard will only handle 10% grades now, then redeisn the layout using switchbacks. THAT's what the big boys did.









Eventually these 10% grades will damage or break the gearing in the C19 no matter how much weight or weight distribution you have. Not being argumenative....just realistic.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

10% is a grade a C-19 would never run on. Sure you can add weight and put on all ball bearing wheels which will help but in the end your locomotive will just plain give out.


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Thank you for the replies.

In the past, on this forum, I was told that having USAT and Aristocraft diesels pulling trains on my grades would strip all the gears in short time. It is now 6 years of operation on my line and I have not had one gear go down (I have obviously tempted providence here!). 
The diesels that achieve the climb are from the stable of: 
F3s, GP30s, Gp38, NW2,S4, GP9, RS3, SD70, LGB Genesis. The little, but heavy, NW2 (which does not have traction tyres) can pull two Bachmann or LGB passenger cars.
Bachmann Annies have also been running for the same time. As I said in the first post, the Annies can just about pull only one car on their own but with motorised 'helper' cars, trains of about seven cars can climb happily.
The geared locos just do their stuff as they would in real life .

I was really surprised at how little traction the C19 had as my K27s (both Bachmann and Accucraft versions) have no problem dragging themselves up the slope although they find it hard to pull more than two 1:20.3 cars on their own and the wheels just slip.

I totally agree with the suggestion to strip the weight from the tender as this is heavier than the K27 one! Also lowering the blind axles could well help a little here (my curves are between 8 to 20 ft radius).

My mistake about the tender pickups, I had not looked closely enough at the pivot point to see the pickup cables going into the tender body there. 

Can I still ask....What are the thoughts on using the 'Snot' on one axle of drive wheels.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have measured the pulling power of a number of engines. On average on level track they will pull about 1/3 of the engine weight. Traction tires increase the pulling power, but not by a lot. Increasing the angle reduces that significantly. You said that your triple and quad headed diesels will pull a reasonable length train. How long is that train? Stan's suggestion might help a little, but if you put those wheels on the track, the pressure on the wheels previously on the track will be reduced. Let us say that you now have four powered wheels on the track and the engine weights 4 pounds. That is one pound per wheel. If you now have 8 wheels on the track the pressure per wheel is now 1/2 a pound. You now have twice the friction, but that isn't, in my opinion, going to make a significant difference in pulling power. 

If you are really interested in quantifying your problem, go to a fishing store and get a fish scale (able to measure up to a 10 to 15 pound fish). Hook it to the coupler on the engine and measure the pulling power on the level. Keep increasing the power to the track and the record the weight on the scale when the wheels start to slip. Then do the same on your 10% grade. You can do the same with your cars. Pull a string up your 10% grade and measure the drag. This approach certainly opened my eyes as to some problems that I was having.

Chuck

PS; some engines aren't designed for steep grades. In real life the C-19 pulled very short consists on 4% or less grades.

Here is a table I made a while back on the pulling power of some of my engines using the fish scale.



Number of 

Pulling Power with tt without tt 
Number of Wheels With Weight Pulling Power % of Engine % of Engine % of Engine ENGINE Powered Axles Traction tires (lbs) (lbs) Weight Weight Weight LGB 






AT&SF Diesel 6 1 9.4 2.5 27 27 
Diesel F7a 4 1 8.75 3 34 34 
Mogul (2-6-0) 3 1 7 1.5 21 21 
Mallet (2-6-6-2) 6 2 9.8 3 31 31 
Forney (0-4-4) 2 1 7.6 2.75 36 36 
AristoCraft 






Mikado (2-8-2) 4 0 11 4.5 41 
41 Mallet (2-8-8-2) 8 0 14 5 36 
36 Bachmann 






Climax 4 0 7.3 2.25 31 
31 Consolidation (2-8-0) 4 0 10.1 3.25 32 
32 Mikado (2-8-2) 4 0 13 3.75 29 
29 Accucraft 






K28 Mikado (2-8-2) 4 0 12 3.5 29 
29 K27 Mikado (2-8-2) 4 0 17.5 4.75 27 
27 USAt 






Diesel SD40  6 4 10.4 3.5 34 34 
Diesel SD70 6 0 11 4.5 41 
41 Diesel F3a 4 4 7.5 3.25 43 43 
Diesel F3b 4 4 6.9 3.75 54 54 
F3a+F3b 8 8 14.4 6.75 47 47 average 




36 33


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By beavercreek on 05 Aug 2013 05:49 PM 


Can I still ask....What are the thoughts on using the 'Snot' on one axle of drive wheels. 



Traction tires would clearly increase the traction and the gearing/motor on the C-19 should be fine. I am not sure "snot" would work very well simply because of the weight and forces involved. Snot was initiall designed for N scale where the locomotive weight is not much. 
You might also try running the C-19 into a wall for awhile to wear in the drive wheels to gain maximum traction. On a 2.5 grade the C-19s will pull 9 1:20 cars without a problem. 

In the real world they could only pull a couple of cars up a 4% grade.

Stan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not sure how much good Bullfrog Snot will do in an outdoor environment. You can try it, but you may have better luck simply adding a bit more weight to the locomotive. Outdoors, with rain washing dust and debris up on the track, I just can't imagine a thin layer of that stuff lasting very long. I've never used the stuff, but just hearing my trains run around my track after I've watered the railroad, there's almost always a thin layer of dirt on the rails the first few trips around. I'd try the other suggestions first, but if your Ks can't even pull but one or two cars up that grade, the C-19's not going to do any better. 

While I certainly agree that a 10% grade is crazy ridiculous, I also cut my teeth on a railroad with an 8% ruling grade, so sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. But on that railroad, that's a specific stretch of track, and is also dedicated helper district unless you've got 5 or fewer cars, regardless of what the loco can pull. You _will_ stress the gears on the locos running under those extreme conditions. Whether its to the point of breakage depends on the locomotive, but any time you run close to slipping your drivers (be it on a steep grade or flat with 40 cars in tow), you're introducing stresses on the gears that will reduce their lifespan. 

BTW, the blind drivers most certainly contribute to the pulling power. If they're in contact with the rails, they're carrying the weight of the locomotive, thus helping in the effort. The flange's job is simply to keep things on the rails. Having said that, the total number of drivers on the rails has nothing to do with what a locomotive can pull. When you look at the mathematical formula railroad engineers used to calculate tractive effort, the number of drivers isn't part of the equation. Doesn't matter if it's an 0-4-0 or 0-8-0; if the other factors are all equal, the locomotive will have the same tractive effort. 

I do, however, hope that the 10% grade is not part of where you routinely run. Expecting _anything_ to pull more than its own shadow up that grade--even "geared" locomotives--is asking a heckuvalot. (From a practical standpoint, all of our locomotives are "geared" locomotives, regardless of the prototype being modeled.) 

Later, 

K


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Thank you Stan, Kevin and Chuck for the input. I am finding it very interesting.

My line just has to have that incline unless I was to drastically change the topography, the design and actual use of the garden (most of us in UK do not have large back yards like you lads over in The States) and my garden is on a slope up and across from the house.
Before anyone says what about using tunnels, cuttings, trestles etc to lessen the gradient, these have all been considered and have had to be dismissed either for practical operation reasons or because we also like our garden too much to turn it into a more train dominated space.

The incline is on both my mainline and also the 'local' line. It is used all the time whenever the layout is in operation.

It is good to have the table of tractive forces from Chuck and I expect that my diesel 'lash-ups' are doing something near to what his measurements show.
Below I have listed example trains that are able to climb the grade.
For example if I run:

1) triple head..let's say USAT F3 ABA it can pull five to six Aristo streamliner cars quite happily all day long (provided I have cleaned the traction tyres!). If I quad head ABBA I can add another streamline car.
2) triple head let's say GP3, GP30 and GP38 it can drag about 13 cars around with no slip.

3) add in my motorised bachmann combine passenger car to a Bachmann Annie and it can pull itself, the combine of course and a further 4 or five cars (4 with another passenger or 5 with 30ft freight). ( the 'motorised combine' uses a USAT block with traction tyres and ball-bearing pickup wheels in the other bogie)

4) an Aristo RS3 (newer type) with the addition of two motorised stock cars (using one Aristocraft centrecab block in each car) a train total of 7 or 8 cars cars can climb the slope .
5) a USAT GP9 with one motorised stock car can also pull a train of 7 to 8 cars.
The cars are on average 30ft or 40ft box, 2/3 bay hoppers, 30ft tank cars, 40 or 50 ft flat cars with improvised loads etc etc all have metal wheels some with ball bearing wheelssets.
All my USAT diesels have traction tyres.

To all intents a purposes, as I have already said, I have been doing this for six years and I still have yet to experience one gear issue. I run my trains carefully, I do not 'cannonball' and barring a derailment, try not to have sudden, starts, stops or changes in direction.
I run both DCC and DC depending on whether the locos are chipped or not.

A little fly in this ointment happened at our last open day, a week back, when a visitor brought along his scratch built Kitsen 'Mallet' loco to try out our gradient. He brought four passenger coaches. the loco is very very heavy and is based on the LGB Mallet blocks. It managed to pull four cars at first then down to three and finally two without whell-slip, but unknown to me he was continually spinning his loco's wheels quite vigorously up the incline as he liked the sound that the loco made! This had polished the railhead to within an inch of its life and when I put my 3 truck Shay on (which usually pulls 8 of the bachmann short log cars with a caboose up the slope) it just slid back down the slope even without power being applied. In the end it would only pull three cars without wheel slip....I have had to 'un-polish' the rails!

I am tending to go along with the idea that the 'Snot' will not work so well with this scale and also kevin's suggestion that the debris usually found on our rails will soon gunge up the added traction.
I am going to try one of my older Annies and use Chucks idea of a fish scale to see the difference, if any, in the traction before and after' Snot' has been applied to one set of drivers.Then see, if there is a difference, how long it lasts before the 'crud' overcomes any advantage.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

We are happy that you have had success achieving what you must by methods you have devised. 

However we as a group are shy to make suggestions that anyone else follow your lead, that is not our decision to make. 

You don't need to defend your methods, just accept that you are the lucky (in our minds) exception. 

One thing you might consider would be a gear driven 'mule' to assist the train. It's a barrowed concept. I remember when I was 10 on a german freighter in Norfolk Va, USA, horbor as the ship was filled with coal. A narrow ga. Mule would be pulled by a cable. It's tracks came from below, up between the rails to on top of the ties where it's head caught a coal car and took it up to the dump. I bet a screw drive like we have for garage doors could be adapted to take the strain off your locos. With just a split n the ties you could have an armature poke up and engage the loco for a powered assist. 

John


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi John

I sort of already have mules as you can see I mentioned in my last posts on this thread, I have motorised stock cars and also a motorised passenger combine car so these already act as 'mules' although, not of course operating in the same mechanical manner. (see my last post as to details of these 'helpers').


I have to say that I, in no way, was giving any advice to anyone on this forum as to follow my lead. I was merely asking if anyone had tried 'Bullfrog Snot' or had any hints for me to help my C19 on my obviously 'different' and not to be copied line.

I think I am forgetting that this forum is not as 'free and easy' as our British forums and that some people on this forum can take the wrong inference sometimes.

But I thank you for your input


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I wish I could give you some information regarding Bullfrog Snot and large scale. It is sold at the local hobby store where I help during the Christmas holidays. So far, I have heard that the O scale/gauge crowd has had success with it, but that is still a much smaller scale and still limited to indoor use. 

I suppose the only way to currently find out is by conducting the experiment yourself, while keeping the concerns expressed by some of the others here in mind. 

Best of luck, 
David Meashey


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By beavercreek on 06 Aug 2013 12:35 PM 



I have to say that I, in no way, was giving any advice to anyone on this forum as to follow my lead. I was merely asking if anyone had tried 'Bullfrog Snot' or had any hints for me to help my C19 on my obviously 'different' and not to be copied line.

I think I am forgetting that this forum is not as 'free and easy' as our British forums and that some people on this forum can take the wrong inference sometimes.

But I thank you for your input



beavercreek,

The advice you received on this forum was a direct result of the initial information YOU provided in your very first post on this thread. IF you had given more info for the discussion in your first post as you later added in additional posts, we all would have understood your problem. 

I was the first person to answer about your dilemma with the Bachmann C-19. I was mislead by the fact you posted in the Beginner's Forum. But you say you have been running this layout for over 6 years without problems. That's far from being a "beginner", in my opinion. Your quote "some people on this forum can take the wrong inference sometimes" is NOT fair, IMOH. Next time you might get better advice and information if YOU will give ALL the DETAILS when asking the first question. The output of advice to YOU is ONLY as good as the info YOU INPUT to the forum.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Beaver: 

I may not see it exactly as Gary does, but some of us do try to "protect" exuberant beginners from reading something and thinking it's a "best practice".... The ever elusive goals of cheap track that works well, locomotives that can pull 100 tons, and miniscule power supplies that can run a city block seem to always be a "hopeful goal" to newcomers. 

Many of us believe that helping a beginner avoid some early mistakes keeps them in the hobby and keeps them from being discouraged. 

So, this might explain some non "free and easy" attitude. 

Now, after that (hopefully helpful) explanation, the use of bullfrog snot has been acclaimed in the smaller scales, like HO, and sometimes N... it's too hard to get a good "tire" in Z, I can also tell you that. One thing that is an unknown is it's reaction to heat, and if it gets gummy. 

But it does work, and you have successfully used traction tires to your advantage for 6 years and I respect that. I would definitely invest in a tube and try it out. If it works, great, and inexpensive solution... if it does not work, all you have lost is a little money and a little time. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would tend to say this loco as others mentioned was even in real life not ment to be operated on steep grades. How ever you can experiment with the traction compound but i might add you may burn up a motor. As in real 1 to 1 operations one adds additional locos to compensate for grade and curvature there by avoiding burning up rail and locos. Later RJD


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Thank you David, Greg and RLD.
Greg, I fully take your point about temperature and the 'snot' and together with Kevin's point about the crud it may pick up on our outside lines, it might not be suitable.
RLD, as stated in one of my last posts, I will be trying an experiment with one Annie and see how things go. I will report back after extensive trials.
I did mention the vid on Youtube that shows an Aristocraft C16 going through its paces with 'snot' on one set of drivers. Unfortunately although it shows a great improvement it did not say how long it lasted.


Gary:
The reason for me using the beginners forum is that I was not sure where to post the thread and as I have used the beginners forum on previous occasions for items, where I am a relative beginner when compared to others, I just dropped it in there (obviously wrongly).
I did not put all of the info in the first post as it would have been a very long one and may have been ignored or just 'skimmed'. Also I was really asking about the general effectiveness 'Bull Frog snot' and the possibility of getting extra traction for the C19. I was also asking if anyone had had traction issues with the C19. I did point out my heavy inclines so as to indicate why I would definitely have problems but I wondered if others may have experienced problems with relatively flat layouts.
As I said, we are a little more free and easy over here and tend not to reprimand folk who are asking questions, no matter how crazy. Also if they need help or guidance as to where to post we are a little more supportive.


I have had really good informative and encouraging replies to my threads on this forum but I will make sure that I am careful with what, how and where I ask in future.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By beavercreek on 07 Aug 2013 03:09 AM 
Thank you David, Greg and RLD.
Greg, I fully take your point about temperature and the 'snot' and together with Kevin's point about the crud it may pick up on our outside lines, it might not be suitable.
RLD, as stated in one of my last posts, I will be trying an experiment with one Annie and see how things go. I will report back after extensive trials.
I did mention the vid on Youtube that shows an Aristocraft C16 going through its paces with 'snot' on one set of drivers. Unfortunately although it shows a great improvement it did not say how long it lasted.


Gary:
The reason for me using the beginners forum is that I was not sure where to post the thread and as I have used the beginners forum on previous occasions for items, where I am a relative beginner when compared to others, I just dropped it in there (obviously wrongly).
I did not put all of the info in the first post as it would have been a very long one and may have been ignored or just 'skimmed'. Also I was really asking about the general effectiveness 'Bull Frog snot' and the possibility of getting extra traction for the C19. I was also asking if anyone had had traction issues with the C19. I did point out my heavy inclines so as to indicate why I would definitely have problems but I wondered if others may have experienced problems with relatively flat layouts.
As I said, we are a little more free and easy over here and tend not to reprimand folk who are asking questions, no matter how crazy. Also if they need help or guidance as to where to post we are a little more supportive.


I have had really good informative and encouraging replies to my threads on this forum but I will make sure that I am careful with what, how and where I ask in future.


No problem for me "beaver"....just a suggestion.








All of my ancestry goes back to Nothern England (Yorkshire area...some STILL there now! Preston and the Ribble River Valley specifically) so I know about the "little more free and easy" aspects.


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## DanteHicks79 (Jun 19, 2013)

The other (more fun) solution is to buy several and double-head or triple-head them up the hill. 

"Honey, I talked it over with some other train guys, and they all agree that this one locomotive just is not enough to go up this grade by itself. I gotta buy at least one or two more to keep this railroad in business!" ;-)


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## Chimmy Chunga (Aug 10, 2013)

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFRLkgxyENI


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Dante and Chimmy

If you look at my earlier posts on this thread you will see details of some my lash-ups which I already use to drag trains up the hill one of which is shown in my signature photo. I also have made 'motorised' rolling stock such as stockcars and Passenger car to 'help' single locos conquer the slope. These 'motorised' helpers are 1:22.5 or 1:29 scale. I have not yet made any 1:20.3 scale ones that would be appropriate to hang behind the C19 which has the real problem pulling itself up the gradient.

Also you will see that I mention in my first post the C16 vid on YouTube but I was wondering if anyone on this forum had used the 'Bullfrog Snot' with any success.


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