# Harbor Models Smoke sytem



## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

I mounted one in my USA Trains Hudson. I love it










The video will illustrate the point. The TSA unit was lousy so was the Massoth unit. Granted there's no chuff connection yet. but the others only showed a chuff effect at very slow speeds anyway.

YouTube Video


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## david bunn (Jan 4, 2008)

Smokin' Larry,where did you fit the unit? in the tender and pipe the mist forward? 

Very interested 

Regards 

David


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## daveyb (Feb 28, 2009)

yep more info needed,,,, looks very very promising,,,, nice one!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's really great--an excellent effect.


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

The smoke unit is inside the shell right under the exhaust. The unit comes with the smoke outlet in the forward leftcorner. I removed the outlet pipe, covered the old hole and made a new one centered on the unit so it would fit in the shell and under the stack. I had to cut out the old smoke unit mounting lugs and the lug that connects the shell to the frame in order to fit it in.



I'm using a separate battery for the smoke unit that goes under the coal load right along side the battery for the RC system. I have 3 batteries for the smoke unit and each should give me about 50 minutes of run time. The battery is a Lithium Polymer which some will tell you are dangerous. Please note I charge that battery outside the engine while I'm at home to keep an eye on it. Having said that....... all the RC heli pilots and plank flyers use these all the time...quite safe to use IMHO.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE1Xpholv5g

harbor smoke system still in use, one year testing and it still smokes strong,the smoke unit is pretty big but careful separation of the fan housing and relocating with a duct connection(some plastictube will do)and all will fit in lets say a big engine,buy the way one fill goes ca 40 minutes!!

manfred


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Okay, electronics gurus... 

For the non-DCC folks who would like to synchronize chuffs, here's a question... 

To get the "chuff" effect, you'd have to pulse the speed of the fan of the unit. First off, can you separate the fan motor from the heating element, in order to independently control it. Second, what would be a simple circuit that one could build that would run the fan at say half speed under default, but when the magnetic reed chuff trigger is closed, would pulse the fan to full speed momentarily? 

I've seen Harbor Smoke systems with a mechanical shutter of sorts installed on the output used in model tanks, and the effect is quite realistic. The problem is the mechanical shutter is loud. 

Thoughts? I like the effect--almost enough to make a believer out of me in smoke units. (I said "almost...") I've got a new project in development with oodles of space in the boiler and tender. I'm tempted--really tempted to try something like this. I'm already thinking about a mechanical bell ringing mechanism using a micro gearhead motor. (See the latest _Narrow Gauge Gazette_ for a similar application.) Of course, then there's the question of how does one duct some smoke to the whistle so it vents when you blow the whistle... 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not seen anyone separate the fan from the "power input" on the HM unit, I have been told that it could actually overheat if the fan speed was too low. 

I have seen almost as much smoke with a Zimo decoder running an MTH unit. The MTH smoke units are cost effective, and have 4 wires, 2 to the motor, 2 to the heating element, NO electronics. The Zimo controls and modulates both the fan and the heating element, on 2 separate outputs, and, like most DCC units, has quite a lot of "programmability" to the fan speeds and the heat level. 

The Zimo will work on speed or a chuff sensor, and will work on DC too. 

You could buy the smoke unit from MTH, or Axel also has ones he sells, and get him to send you the entire package. 

If someone put their mind to it, the HM unit could probably be used, although I need Axel or Dan to speak up about the current handling capability of the PWM outputs on the 695 decoders... Oh, you get sound too! 

Greg


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Synched chuffing or not, that is still one of the most impressive examples of pure smoke output I've ever seen. I can vouch that the newer generation Lipo batteries are remarkably user friendly, safe when treated correctly, and are now de rigueur in the model aviation community. (One of the larger "planks" I fly operates on an 18.5 Volt 5 cell battery and I've never had problems.) 

Larry - I assume from your pictures that you are running the battery straight to the smoke unit. It occurs to me that you could vary the amount of smoke produced by the unit by installing an electronic speed controller that is controlled via a Spektrum or similar 2.4 GHZ receiver/transmitter. This presumes the use of track power, though; more difficult if you've already dedicated the throttle channel of a 2.4 receiver to controlling power to the locomotive motors ... 

Either way, would love to see it in person. Cheers, Jon


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

While the HM smoke unit only has two wires it's easy enough to either separate them of to do what's next in my plan.....I'll cut the reed switch into the motor circuit to try and get a chuff going. I may even change the fan to a dual voltage system low for low speed high for chuff...which is pretty much what the TSA and Massoth units do. 

Hi Jon.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Cool. Keep me posted. I'm a good while off from that stage in my upcoming project, but it has a great deal of potential. 

Some design considerations for all you electronics types out there... 

Two inputs - (1) +12 v (to feed the smoke generator and controller) 
(2) "chuff" trigger input 

Two outputs - (1) fan (variable voltage based on the control circuit) 
(2) heating element (constant voltage) (Is there an advantage to be gained by pulsing the voltage to the heating element similar/identical to the fan?) 

Variable controls - Default fan speed. Settable via a micro potentiometer to a speed sufficient to keep the heating element from burning out, but also slow enough to where full speed is a visual difference. 
- Chuff pulse width, i.e., how long the fan is pushed to max speed each time the chuff is triggered. If you wanted to get really fancy, you could have a low end and high end pulse width, variable with the frequency of the chuff being triggered. The faster the triggers in succession, the shorter the pulses. Could be set to be adjusted by pots, or fixed. 

Seems to me this should be simple enough to design with something like a 555 timer IC at the core. 

(And Greg, if the Zimo can do this cost effectively in a purely DC environment, I'm all ears.) 


Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sure Del could design one, and use a small micro. 

Kevin, even the few features you requested really calls for a micro. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, have you read through the manual for the Massoth unit. I think it is by far the most sophisticated unit of the bunch, but of course it can't compete with the output of that beast using a Lipo battery with 36amps!! At least with the Massoth unit it integrates nicely with the chuffing and load dependant sound when controlled with a Massoth decoder or other (like Zimo) with a Suzi interface. It will always be possible to haywire together a system to generate enough smoke for a Kiss concert, but integrating it in to most smaller locomotives and using a reasonable amount of power (ie. 600mA) is more important for most people IMHO. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The harbor models unit draws 2 amps at 12 volts. I don't know the "split" between the fan and the heating element, but that will be the "catch" I believe. 

A bit of warning, very few reed switches will handle switching an amp, so check your specs before you just hook one up to the HM unit. 

I've read the manual on the Massoth, it's definitely the most "configurable" of anything out there, in terms of a single unit. The Zimo decoder has even more configuration, but is more complex and of course more expensive if you total the smoke unit and the Zimo decoder (though if you count motor, sound, smoke control, and smoke unit it's probably less than the Massoth plus a sound and motor decoder). 

The load dependent sound requires a motor or sound decoder with a susi output... that's a bit rare... 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The load dependent sound requires a motor or sound decoder with a susi output... that's a bit rare... 

Actually the Massoth and Zimo decoders have had this for a while, and even the LGB decoders have an output bus that is very similar in configuration. That's why I think the best overall blend is still the Massoth XLS decoder and Massoth smoke unit. You can make others work together, but it seems to take a lot more effort. With the Massoth you plug it together and go...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe the Lenz decoders have also had SUSI for a while too. 

You can't plug the SUSI of the Zimo into the Massoth? You are sort of implying that... or is it just that the CV's are already set on the Massoth for this? 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure what the Zimo bus connection looks like, but if it complies with the Susi standard it should work shouldn't it? I figured it was just a kind of clock output. There are various CV's on the Massoth decoder to do with the smoke maker, but I've never tried a Zimo so I can't say for certain how straight forward it is.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe the SUSI connector is 4 pins, basically data and power (2 power, 2 data), the right hand connector on the Uhlenbrock decoder.











Regards, Greg


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

BTW, the reference to generating KISS concert level smoke was brilliant. I think my old MTH Daylight managed Deep Purple level smoke once or twice, but never came close to matching KISS ...


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## GeorgeMMR (Jan 19, 2008)

Larry, Larry, Larry. HOORAY! You are back into trains! I weep when I see that you tore out that lovely railway, but am waiting with anticipation to see what you build next. Now..............
to come all the way around 180 degrees, you need to bring back the chickens!
George


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Massoth unit would be great in a traditional DCC environment, but it's not programmable outside of DCC. To my thinking, this is a pretty basic control--something you definitely don't need DCC to do, so why go through the expense and complexity of needing to program it? Give me a small potentiometer to set the timing and voltage parameters, and I'm a happy camper. I can hook it directly to a battery and a magnetic reed switch and be off and running. Think of it as the MyLocoSound of smoke unit controls. If you're running DCC, great! You've already got what you need. But for those who aren't, I can't see why you can't get similar results with an analog control circuit. Just gotta figure out how to build it. 

Hmmm, maybe my dad wants a mental exercise... 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, the thinking that it is simple is great, but you launch into wanting a number of parameters that just beg for programmability. 
What if the "pot" you use does not have fine enough control? With an actual pot, you have to buy a different part, possibly redesign the circuit board. 
But with a program, you just modify the software. 
If you wanted to adjust the minimum fan speed and you needed a slightly different type of low speed control, again, with a analog hardware-centric design design you have the same disadvantages, with a microprocessor based design, you just modify the program. 
You are fighting a trend that is no longer a trend, but a reality of design. 
Del uses a small micro quite efficiently in his products, as simple as some of the entry level products are. 
You want a chuff trigger input (so that needs to be programmable for minus to plus, or plus to minus, or perhaps being able to use a hall effect sensor) 
You want a main 'pot' to adjust the rough smoke volume (again would be better to be programmable) 
You want a "idle speed" pot to adjust the idle speed "default speed" (again would be better to be programmable) 
You want to tweak the low end and high end pulse width (2 more pots) (again would be better to be programmable) 
In the end, if you read what you want, you would have a little board with 4 or 5 pots connected to it!!! 
It would be better to have a small board with a micro, and a couple of programming buttons and an led... and yes you could use a magnet. 
And version 2 could just be a firmware update rather than an entire hardware change. 


Welcome to the 21st century! Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm right there with you Kevin. It would seem obvious to me that a system could be set up to control chuff without the need of a DCC controller. 

I've been milling this over too, on how to get the good smoke such as what this Harbor freight unit puts out or a Massoth, but elminate the DCC component. Us Batt/RC guys need a way to make smoke. 

I was wondering about sound boards and their controlling of a chuff sound. However, I think all that is internal and so there is no "connection" that could be wired to the smoke unit to control a chuff. I then have been going in the same direction as you are. connecting a reed switch to control the "chuff", but otherwise have the smoke unit's fan run in low speed. 

With the Massoth unit and the separate wire for controlling chuff and other power, I was thinking this is actually pretty simple. I was going to connect the main power wires to my battery that I use to run the locomotive (I dont want more than one battery in the loco, I'd like to charge the loco with one connection and be done with it), I'd install a switch in between so I could turn the smoke unit off or on. I know I'd probably have to assemble a very simple circuit to get the voltage correct between the smoke unit and the battery, but I hadn't gotten that far. As far as the chuff, the way I understood the Massoth unit's electronics, I could hook a magnetic switch off the axles (much like what we do for sound chuffs) to the chuff wires and get my chuff effect. Again, this is all theory and I have yet to put it all together. 

I can see some drawbacks to my plan...one I'm not sure how much smoke I will get in the default position, and without a DCC controller to "set" it, I'm not sure how I would program it. Obviously I wont be able to take advantage of all the features of the Massoth smoke unit because I dont have DCC controller. 

That was plan A.....Plan B is working with Airwire controller. I have little experience with Airwire and I am only going off what I read, however, it looks like I can hook a DCC decoder to the Airwire and thus could use Zimo or something like that and then just hook up the Massoth. Again, this is my very limited knowledge of Airwire and I dont know if this is possible.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe I'm not being clear... too many words? Not enough words, no one believes the statement, too many words, it rusticates the point. 

I was talking about using a microprocessor, like Dell uses, NOT DCC... 

Del's stuff is not DCC.... 



Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I got that part about the microprocessor. And I agree with you on the simplicity of being able to program as opposed to having to switch out hardware to get the desired effect. 

But, does Del's microprocessor work with other systems, such as what I have the NCE G-Wire or an Airwire, honestly I dont know. I assumed it didnt.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jake: 

A microprocessor can be made to work with anything, AC, DC, DCC. You are surrounded by them. Do you have an electric toothbrush? It has a microprocessor. Do you have an Aristo smoke unit? It has a microprocessor, in fact most of the voltage regulators in Aristo are microprocessors. 

Do you have a car with "one touch down" windows? There's a separate microprocessor that controls just that. Do you have a digital watch? 

None of these things are DCC... microprocessors are everywhere in our daily life, which is non-DCC. 

The point is that Kevin's idea of something simple (a 555 timer and a bunch of analog potentiometers) , is actually more complex than a simple micro in today's world. It's harder to find analog electrical engineers than digital electrical engineers. 

Del could program up a micro in an afternoon to do the basics of what Kevin asked. 

Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I understand the microprocessor part. I'm only 35 so I'm of the electrical microprocessor generation and a little Electrical Engineering in my background I get the basics. 

What I'm trying to wrap my mind around is how this fits in to a pratical RC/batt installation. 

Here is what I'm thinking. Lets use my standard setup (if I ever get my QSI Titans, but thats a whole other topic...), a battery connected to a QSI sound decoder and a G-Wire receiver. I would then install Del's microprocessor on a function output of the QSI board and then run the wires off the microprocessor to a Massoth smoke unit. I install a reed switch and run the wires to the microprocessor and then to the Massoth unit so I get the cuff capability. The advantage of this setup is the microprocessor could be programed as you said to tweek various parts of the smoke unit and thus take full advantage of the units capabilities. If thats right, then I'm all for that.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was wondering about sound boards and their controlling of a chuff sound 
That reminds me of a possible alternate control mechanism. Way back in the pre-disco early 1970s, we ran a synchronised light show by adding thyristors to the speaker output that controlled the AC to the lights. That was pre-microprocessor too - I know because I got the program a prototype calculator. 

Anyway, my point is that the sound signal to the speaker is as good a trigger as the reed switch or wiper on an axle. If you already have a working sound system producing a chuff, the sound can also trigger the smoke boost. 

otherwise have the smoke unit's fan run in low speed. 
My reaction to the idea of adjusting smoke output by slowing the fan is that it all seems a bit tricky. If you slow the fan, there is still lots of smoke being produced. If you reduce the heater current, there's even less smoke produced and it won't recover fast enough to give you a blast. Seems to me you need a slow fan, lots of storage space under the stack and a chuff "blaster" triggered by the sound system or the same axle triggers as the sound. Or perhaps a quiet output baffle that flips open/shut in a jiffy so the smoke pressure builds up until the next chuff is needed? 

K - do you know how much room there is in the front of the boiler of an RYM Mikado? Lots and lots and lots. . . .


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jake, I'm actually trying to address exactly what Kevin was talking about, maybe I don't get what he said exactly. 

The idea is a small "device" that would work with DC power, and of course this really includes R/C motor controllers that have PWM output, because that's just a reality. 

This device needs to be simple to operate and configure, not requiring a programmer to adjust the settings. 

All I'm stating is that it would be microprocessor based, but the user needs no knowledge of this, all he needs is it to be simple to operate. My contention is that given the things Kevin "asked for", is that I would build it with a microprocessor, a couple of buttons and a couple of leds. (oh yes, also an input for a reed switch, so some programming or reset could be done with a magnet) 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, it can be microprocessor controlled, that's fine. Pushbutton programmability a la the Sierra sound systems works for me. (Deleted the rest, redundant to what Greg just posted.)

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's probably a market for such a device, a nice small board that could adapt to different smoke units, like the standalone one Train-Li sells, the MTH series, and appropriately re-wired Aristo, USAT and Harbor Models units. 

Now, all we have to do is talk Del into it ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

He he he, true Greg.... 

While on the subject it seems you have a lot of knowledge in it. I mentioned trying to use the sound trigger for a chuff to try to trigger a chuff in the smoke unit. Is that possible?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

what ever happened to the good'ol American Flier type smokers. I used oil in mine for years and smoked and chuffed great. 
they never seemed to go bad.


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

While on the subject it seems you have a lot of knowledge in it. I mentioned trying to use the sound trigger for a chuff to try to trigger a chuff in the smoke unit. Is that possible? 

That's what I've been doing....it's also how the TSA and Massoth units work


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

you could control it with a picaxe chip 

they have servo comands built in they are cheap and you could trigger it with anything even voltage


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I forget what processor Del uses, I know Dave Bodnar is a big advocate of the PicAxe... 

The TSA and Massoth smoke units have electronics and a "chuff" / "pulse" wire... In the TSA, I believe it is the fan only, in the Massoth, I am guessing, but I'll bet it's a bit more sophisticated. Unfortunately, the TSA units are NLA and the Massoth one is a bit expensive if you were to use a separate controller. The MTH is quite inexpensive, and the simple one that Train-Li carries is not bad. 

Marty: Yeah those old units were fine, but they did not put out the same level of smoke, and normally there was a mechanical chuff mechanism connected to the axle, so much harder to adapt. I think also that the smoke pellets are probably a no no now... give you cancer just looking at them, ha ha! 

Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

with 2 amps of current and a great deal of heat to make that much smoke will it live with less cooling from the fan?

with a flaper that is servo controled you could block it at the stackand let it back up untill it comes out the bottom of the model .... and you could add another tube that also has a flaper that goes to the whistle that is triggered by the fuction that also makes the sound


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I like where this discussion is going but Im afraid I hyjacked this thread.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the smoke pellets are still made( i have them for sale in the store) ...... but lionel stoped making and using them years ago becouse kids where eating them


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott, without going back to the HM site, I believe they indicated to me that the fan running at high speed is necessary to keep it cool... if you were to modulate the fan, I think you would need to modulate the heater also. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.modelboatsandfittings.com/content/php/Smoke Generator.php 

Here's another smoke generator that--from the YouTube videos--looks to put out copious amounts of smoke. A bit cheaper than the HM unit, and draws a bit less current. 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

While looking at the videos, it occurred to me you don't need a fancy digital controller. Why not a mechanical one? 

A disk with 4 equal pieces missing, over the smoke output or under the stack, driven from an axle, will block the smoke for 1/8th revolution and allow it for the next 1/8th. Tune it with a different disk - e.g. 1/16th open and 3/16th closed, 4 times per rev? 

We have belt drives, chain drives and gear drives easily available. The 1/8th" wide chain that I use on r/c servos should work.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Along Pete's line of thinking, 'cept motorised, are there small stepper motors that could operate his disc? 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Fitting a mechanical controller to existing locos would be problematic at best in some locos, downright impossible in others. (Geared locos?) The stepper motor idea has merit--something that moves a baffle in and out if pulsing the fan proves inadequate to provide a sufficient "chuff" of smoke. I'm leaving for out of town tonight, but when I get back, I'm going to see what kind of trouble I can get into. (I don't have near enough projects already.) I managed to pique dad's interest in working on some kind of controller for it. 

Later, 

K


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 15 Jun 2011 10:03 PM 
the smoke pellets are still made( i have them for sale in the store) ...... but lionel stoped making and using them years ago becouse *kids where eating them*



Probably because Lionel advertised them as safe, even if swallowed. I remember being tempted to try one myself, as a kid.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Regarding the Harbor Models smoke unit, can it handle the situation when the fluid runs out? Will it burn out if the fluid runs dry? Does it detect this and shut off?


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

I would say don't worry nothing burns out! I had mine quite a while and it happened many times that even with aprox 40 min smoke time i forgott about it and my K27 was running around without smoke i guess the large fan prevent burnouts !!! 

Manfred


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

This looks Great Larry, I wonder how much fluid it would use in a hour of run time. This could REVOLUTIONIZE smoke units as we know it.


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