# Attaching ties to concrete?



## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I have decided to go with concrete roadbed mostly because it is what Dennis Serrine recommended and his track looks absolutely flawless. Now I really don't want to go with a floating track but I don't mind if the rail floats within the ties. My thoughts are to attach the ties to concrete, leave a small gap in-between rail joints (Split Jaw rail clamps) giving them longitudinal flexibility in the heat, and making the track as straight as could be. I have had a few recommendations, but none that I really liked. I think masonry nails/screws are just too big and I don't like the look of a big phillip's head screw sticking out of the ties every few feet. So, does anyone have any suggestions for how I could attach the ties to the bed without sacrificing appearance? I live in region #7 in the USA and temperature varies from about 10º-110º or so in extreme cases. Thanks guys, hope someone has a good idea for this.

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, 

Do a search of John J's threads. He works with concrete a fair bit and has a neat way to secure the track and yet allow for thermal expansion / contraction. He lives in Arizona and I would imagine that this thermal stress parallel yours. 

gg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I used the masonry screws and really don't notice them. Use a hammer drill, a cheap one is a good investment, makes drilling the holes REAL easy.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I use concrete screws and a hammer drill , the company name is Tampon Concrete screws. I may have a photo. I use 1, 1/4" with 1/4 drive head on it.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04/11/2009 6:57 PM
I use concrete screws and a hammer drill , the company name is Tampon Concrete screws. I may have a photo. I use 1, 1/4" with 1/4 drive head on it.

I discovered these Tapcon (not Tampon...hehehehehe) concrete screws when I did the house remodel last year. I've NOW added a box of these screws to my standard set of boxes of wood screws. If you buy the big box you get one drill. I recommend you buy the six pack of those drills as I learned you go through them pretty quick. But, as far as connecting stuff to concrete, I have NOT found any kind of concrete fastener that is easier to use or faster to use nor as inobtrusive. 

Here's a link. http://www.concretefasteners.com/anchors-fasteners/tapcon-screw/pricing.aspx?gclid=CPuD1KiW6pkCFYZM5Qodo0qbSA I bought mine at Home Depot.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

SORRY......


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## K487 (Jan 3, 2008)

Will: 

I didn't want to screw track directly into concrete so here's what I did: 

I bought one 1" x 6?" x 8' piece of that HDP? ("plastic wood") at Lowes. I cut it lengthwise with a circular saw that was set to a 20 to 30 degree angle. I then trimmed the two outside edges lengthwise at the same angle (but opposed) so when you look at the now two pieces at an end view what you see is a trapezoid shape for each of the two long pieces. I then cross cut these (again with the saw set to an angle) into about 4" long pieces. So now each piece, no matter which way you viewed it on end view, showed a trapezoid. 

When pouring the wet concrete I took these trapezoid plastic pieces and pushed them down into the concrete about 15" apart. The wide part of the trapezoid was on the bottom in the concrete, and the narrow part of the trapezoid was flush with the concrete. This way when the concrete set they wouldn't pull up. 

After the concrete was hard enough I used these plastic "inserts" to screw the ties to. Since some of the ties with the holes in them didn't rest over the plactic I just drilled 1/8th inch holes in the appropriate ties and screwed them down. Sure was easy. 

Over 3 to 4 months some hairline cracks radiated in the concrete from the corners of the plasitc trapezoid inserts. I think this was due to the different contraction/expansion rates of the concrete and plastic. I've since torn this concrete roadbed up to make room for something else so I can't say if the cracks would have caused the inserts to loosen up enough or break the concrete enough to make the inserts fail. I doubt it but maybe some concrete expert(s) could chime in here. 

Doug Cheaney


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## Larry T (Jan 2, 2008)

*...has anyone tried a dab of construction adhesive on the bottom of the ties; should adhere to concrete rather well and will give a bit in the heat of summer... *


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I made this point else where, but be sure to unscrew your ties from the rail so the rail can move. reguardless of how you anker the ties down.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I recognize that in scaling the "real world" down to the "model world" some compromizes are often made, BUT, in the real world of Railroads, they want the "Rail" and the "Ties" to be rigidly attached to each other to form a monolithic "Track" structure and that structure is then layed on the Earth's surface without rigid attachment, letting gravity and friction hold the ballast and "Track" in place. 

Everybody has their own ideas about this and anybody can do what they want, but I just let the "Track" move as a unit in relation to the Earth's surface in response to thermal changes in the track and seismic changes in the Earth and let gravity keep it in place.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

To add to Marty's point, you also need to make provisions for rail expansion. I installed some expansion track sections by split jaw in long straight section. I used the 5/8" in a 72ft straight. On the curves it is not a problem as long as you allow the ties to move latterly. Some aristocraft ties strips have slots as well as round holes. If you use the slots with a small screw, and don't clamp the tie down tight allowing it to float side to side as the temps change you should be ok in the curves. I don't know how much effect different curve diameters will have mine are 19 to 20 ft radius.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have about 60 foot of concrete roadbed, it is actually a retaining wall. I had a keystone-shaped piece of Trex cast into the surface, and I use that to loosely pin the track to. The track is free to expand, and there are curves at each end of the 60 foot straightaway. I do not get severe weather though, rarely over 90 in the summer, and rarely to freezing in the winter. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

not to start anything but IF our 1:29th weighed as much as real rail; i would do it like the "real" thing. but I have seen a bridge taken by the wind and 20ft of track on each end of it go with it. 
Here in the "true" Midwest the temps can go from 40 to 105 degrees in a day. easy. 
Any way.... 
PS
If I get to sound dog-matic about laying track its because over the years I have leraned to try to cover all the bases.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been using Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive for years now to attach my track to a concrete roadbed. Works fine for me. I use Sunset Valley code 250 aluminum track. The rail joiners are set so that the rail can slide a little in them for expansion. This works great for a battery layout but certainly not reccomended for track power.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, it's an interesting subject Marty. The rail CAN weigh the right "scale" amount, it should be the cube root of the weight of the prototype. We've gone over this before. Now, the ties are definitely not scale weight. 

But the real problem is that the wind and rain are STILL 1:1 as they hit our 1:29 track, so you have a 20 mph wind that comes out a scale 580 miles per hour! Also your raindrops are say 1/8"? That scales to 3.6 inches... a raindrop that size would surely wash out ballast! 

So, your point is well taken, our "scale" system is affected by "non scale" forces... 

Regards, Greg


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I live about 10 miles from Dennis Serrine's house. I have concrete roadbed also. I use LGB track. I fill the bottom of the hollow ties with GE Silicon II caulk. I fill a tie every 6 to 8 inches. Then set it down where you want it and weight it down with some bricks for about 24 hours until it cures. The silicon caulk holds it in place but is "rubber" enough to allow the track to move every so little. I have track that has been out there for 5 years with no problems. I leave an 1/8" gap between the ends of every other section of track for expansion of hthe rails. Note: get it where you want it the first time as it is hard to pull the track up after the caulk cures. Other people have laid track this way and I have never received a complaint. I will never lay track on concrete any other way.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to press the track down into the glue but that can lead to a little uneven track if the concrete is not perfectly flat. The last cpuple of years I have been putting a pretty good bead of glue on the center spline of the Sunset Valley track and setting the track in place. I then press it lightly into the glue and then give it a good eyeball for any dips or high spots and then make any adjustments while the glue is still wet. After that I let it set and then ad ballast.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

No matter if you are screwing down your track or letting it free float one should not remove the screws holding the ties to rail. As I've mentioned these act just like rail anchors which helps prevent the track from moving in high temps. Either lay the track with some expansion in the joint or add expansion joints. The best time to lay track is when its hot. My track has been free floating for over six years with little or no movement. Another must do is make sure you have pleanty of ballast in the cribs and on the shoulder. We do have a wide ranges of temps here also from 20 degrees to high of 100 degrees. also remember brass will expand more than SS. That is another good reason to use the SS track. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is what I do to anchor my track 












I use a 1/4 inch masonry drill bit with a rotor hammer drill 

The wire you see is from a spool of wire that is used to tie re bar together.

You can get it at home depot]

Some times I make a loop with two wings.

I put it on the screw and insert the scree in the plastic anchor. I bend the wings over the ties as shown above. 


When I make two wings I bend the wings over two ties. 

I remove the screw from the bottom of the track

One must allow for some flex with the extreme heat of the desert.

I do get freezing on occasion's here in the desert so I have the full spectrum of temp.

Where my system holds firm it still allows for some flex. 


I have a 60 ft straight section There is a minimal amount of slide flexing Noticeable but no a problem 

The rusty wire blends in will with almost any ballast.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to use the 1/8" gap method till I had a few problems. also I'm starting to use more rail clamps(even tho I use to hate them) to help with contracting . The heavier locos are beating my home made stuff up and am forced to rethink stuff. 
I just e-mailed Dennis the other evening asking if he would share his tips. 

My other problem is I like to change the RR every so othen. thus other small problems. 
i love building the RR and if I had the $$ and time I would use our south 2 acres, but , naa its not worth it. A few years ago when they was redoing our hwy I thought of asking if they could dump loads of dirt for moutains and a nice river bed in the south area.
I have always wanted to walk under and all around watching the trains. But visitors tend to be over weight and want to walk along side of the trains , thus wrecking stuff.

RPC why did you say you live 10 miles from Dennis for??


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty: Using Dennis system will definitely make you redo all your track work. Be prepared to rip up the RR. You will need a lazier to line the track as Dennis did. Then you will have the great looking track. Later RJD


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## dartracer (Jan 3, 2008)

_I have come to the conclusion this track laying stuff is the hardest part of the outdoor RR, as with anything in life I have found it best to listen to those that have been at it a considerable amount of time, thus avoiding re-dos. The old saying of doing it right the first time really counts here, in time and money. With that said here is what I am doing, I have used some pvc pipe for roadbed grade and attachment, first year all is almost ok, one minor problem after I cleared a slide, I tried ladder out of wood, Didn't like it so now using pvc ladder method as others are and will most likely stay with that and pvc pipe in places. One thing for sure is pvc pipe is great for laying out the RR and grade. If I were younger and could make up my mind in which way to go I might have tried Cemento._

_
_


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

That's why you invite us young bucks over to help you ;-) 

-Will


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

But RJ, you saying I have ugly track??? I do string line mine and I have many grades, as in 1:1. 
I only plan to work on troubled areas. 
I'm always open for ideas. 
I was out last night looking around and this is wild grass and weed season. They don't have that down south. I'm with Ed on this time of the year. Why am I in this hobby.??


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Marty we do get the weeds also just cause I'm in the south does not mean we are weed free. Spray train runs regularly. Yep you may string line it but looks like it does not stay.







Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Some additional items about Dennis' layout: 

He has no frost heave, that makes a big difference when you are putting concrete down. 

He REALLY has super accurate and precise concrete poured.... everything sighted with lasers and professionals doing it. 

His track is NOT directly on the concrete, but on rubber roadbed that was smoothed further. 

So, you need to consider these items if you want to do it like he did... I've never seen such perfect trackwork, but it took a large amount of effort and $$. 

Just putting down concrete and screwing the track to it in a climate that can get frost heave will not be the same. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Most of my track is laying, unconstrained, in ballast. The ballast is constrained along the slopes with wood glue and water sprayed on. 

However, SOME of it follows a retaining wall made from 4x8x12 concrete blocks. There, the track is tied down with the Tapcon screws that Mike mentioned. It's been there 13 years and it hasn't come up yet. There are Tapcons every 6 feet or so and much of that track is curved. I also use Tapcons to hold the track to a stretch of brick patio. Those things go in quick and easy. The drill that came with the box is still good.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

NTCGRR Because we have exactly the same weather conditions. If its 115 degrees at his house, its 115 at my house. Dennis does have some sort of expansion track every so often. I'm not sure exactly what he uses.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought for sure Dennis fan club guys would have all the answers. 
Back before I got to know Jens Bang personally , his fan club knew everything about his RR, right down to photo samples and sizes. 
heheheh 

I'm interested to hear what this rubber is that some talk about. 

Money really is an issue with all of us. I do nickel and dime it all the time. We hauled two loads of rock today from a landscaping bud who called me and asked if I wanted it. we have one more load tomorrow.
But then I took two hours off work to get it. plus paided one of the guys to help load it.
Free is not always easy.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Dennis RR is very impressive...But when *Money* is no object...you can have the best. 

But what fun is it if you have others doing the work?


Greg hit it when he states all the factors that he does not have to deal with.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 04/13/2009 12:01 PM
No matter if you are screwing down your track or letting it free float one should not remove the screws holding the ties to rail. As I've mentioned these act just like rail anchors which helps prevent the track from moving in high temps. Either lay the track with some expansion in the joint or add expansion joints. The best time to lay track is when its hot. My track has been free floating for over six years with little or no movement. Another must do is make sure you have pleanty of ballast in the cribs and on the shoulder. We do have a wide ranges of temps here also from 20 degrees to high of 100 degrees. also remember brass will expand more than SS. That is another good reason to use the SS track. Later RJD

THIS...was the subject of a long discussion on chat the other night (MLS chat starts around 7PM PDT/10PM EDT every night). There's a lot of "statements" in this post that folks should really focus on and think about...and discuss (that's why there was a good chat on this).

a. Do NOT remove the screws hold the ties to the rails -- Now, I don't agree, based on what I've seen here in San Diego where we have a temp swing from 30ish to 105 over a year. I've seen a lot of track that has moved from rail expansion when the screws were left in. There is so much force from the rail expansion that I've seen broken ties (where it was screwed down and the ties were screwed down), glued ballast that what cracked and broken and that the rail on curves had climbed up on (and imposed a superelevation...not good), etc. It seems to me that you want to "accommodate" the rail expansion...by leaving ONE SCREW in per length of track so that one point is anchored...and the rail can move out/in on either side of that screw. In my view, the rail NEEDS to slide along the ties as it expands or contracts. If that's not allowed, then the ties gotta move.


b. Lay the track with some expansion in the joint or add expansion joints -- for sure. Around here, the folks in the club generally leave a 1/8" gap every 8' of track.


c. Lay track when it's hot -- good move, but be mindful of that expansion gap. If the track is "expanded", you don't want to leave big gaps when you install it. NOTE....here, I am talking about the temperature of the RAIL, not the air temperature. One thing that was noted on chat is that the rail temperature can be 120 degrees or more just from being in the sun when the air temperature is only in the 80s. You want to leave the track to be installed OUT in the sun when you are installing it so that it is "expanded".


d. For free floating track, put in lots of ballast in the cribs and on the shoulder -- exactly....like prototype ballast. Looks better, holds better.


e. Brass will expand more than SS -- but not much. As I recall from the chat, brass only expands about 10% more than SS.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Good advice... 


Thanks 

gg


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