# AC Crest Train Engeeneer 57004



## gregg k (Dec 27, 2007)

Hello All,
New to the "Remote Control" aspect of model railroading. Using LGB Locomotives, mostly older non DCC stuff. I bought the new 2.4 TX and Track Base and think its wonderful. The way I understand it is there 2 receivers that can be bought, a 15AMP track side unit and a 5AMP on board (CRE 57002) unit. Well, I have no idea how to hook up the on board RX to my old (or new DCC ones for that matter) LGB Locos, nor do I want to really add these RX in all my Locos. So, what I was wondering was could I use the smaller on board RX as a track base some how on smaller loops or on a reversing unit if I limit the AMPs and only run a small single motor on that track? I hate the idea of spending the money on the big 15AMP Track bases and put them on several different tracks but only utilize a few amps on each... Does that make any scene what I'm asking


BTW, is there a converter that makes these hook up to LGB Locos easier? 


Thanks,
Gregg


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); @import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Hello, 

I have used my TE Revo starter set that way when I want to run a non-DCC loco through variable track power. Still in the experimenting stages but I will probably convert everything over to DCC eventually. There is a non plug n play adapter board that makes this easy to hook up as a trackside unit. The original board I have used is CRE57077. It has two sockets for the onboard receiver to plug in to, two fuses, and a set of screw terminals to connect your wires to. Connect your power supply to the terminals labeled track and your track to the terminals labeled motor. I recently discovered that this board has been replaced by CRE57078 which has several additional components. I am not an electronics expert but I hear these form a bridge rectifier so that it can use AC or impure DC input power. The CRE57077 needs pure DC which the MRC Tech II power pack I tried to use did not provide from the DC outputs. I solved the problem by replacing the power pack but it looks like I would not have needed to with the newer adapter board. 

The only problem I have heard of running LGB locos on Revo power is that some LGB sound systems evidently don't like the PWC output from the Revo. I don't have any LGB locos with sound so I have not experienced this. I believe there is a PWC to linear converter available if you run into this problem. You are not necessarily limited to small locomotives. You should be able to run anything that you would normally be able to install the receiver inside and run. My USAT GP30 seems to get along with it just fine. 

If you are looking to instal receivers in small 4-wheel LGB locos, I think the main problem is the size of the receiver and adapter board combo. I had considered Airwire but I suspect the receivers are also on the big side. DCC decoders can be fairly small and I run indoors so I won't have track conductivity problems. This is why I figure I will be settling on DCC since I already had an NCE system I bought to run my HO scale. 

-Scott


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes you can do what you asked, many people do, but if you have sound in your locos already, or plan to add it, then you may run into the situation Scott mentions. If that happens, then the effort to handle that will be more than going DCC in the first place. 

If you wanted to go DCC in your LGB locos, there's all kinds of parts and help to make most basically a plug and play, i.e. decoders and small connector harnesses. 

If you want more feedback on the Aristo system, you will probably want to post in the other forum, this is usually DCC only. 

Regards, Greg


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## gregg k (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks guys.
Regarding the AMP draw on the LGB without sound, how/where do I hook up an Amp-meter to determine the draw?


As a reference point, approximately what does a LGB Krokidile/Mallet (2 moter) and a Steinz ( 1moter) draw pulling a few cars?


Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You indicated you would power the track and run one loco from an on-board. You will be fine with either loco... pay attention to any lighted cars. 

The Stainz will draw under an amp, I don't know about the Crocodile, but would guess about an amp... LGB uses low current motors and has nice low friction geartrains. 

Greg


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## gregg k (Dec 27, 2007)

Greg,
I just put a post in "Traditional Power". 

I guess I don't understand DCC that well. Say I buy a new LGB/Marklin Loco that is "DCC", what controls the Loco, an LGB TX controller only? Can that Loco also be run on a traditional powered track with a standard variable transformer? So, the DCC loco essentially has a receiver in it from the factory that controls various things like lights, smoke, sound, speed, direction and so on? What transmitter can be used? So, is the 2.4 Train Engeeneer I bought essentialy a DCC for the Loco of my choice or a Plug and Play into some Aristo Craft Locos? Or I'm I way off? I'm assuming the DCC loco can be powered by either track power or battery. So, couldn't I put theses Crest on board RX on my non DCC LGB loco and essentially making them like the newer factory DCC ones?

If I bought a new LGB/Marklin DCC Loco I assume I couldn't control it from my T.E. what do I need?

Thanks for your time and help.

Gregg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Gregg, 
A couple of important points. 
The Aristocraft Train Engineer IS NOT DCC - full stop. 
The DCC LGB locos will run on either traditional analogue DC power ike a standard DC train power pack or they will run using any NMRA compliant DCC system. 
If you want to run these locos using the Aristocraft Train Engineer you need to buy an Aristocraft receiver and essentially replace the DCC decoder in the LGB locos. 
When you bought the Aristocraft Train Engineer you did not buy a DCC system, you bought a proprietary Aristocraft system and you need to use their receivers in the loco and switch machines etc. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

DCC is pretty much by definition power AND control over the rails. 

In a traditional DCC system the power supply connected to the rails provides both power and control. 

Each loco has a "decoder" that is like a receiver, but "receives" from track power, not wireless. 

(many DCC systems do have wireless throttles, but they communicate to a "central station" which receives the commands and puts them on the rails.) 

MOST DCC decoders will also run on straight DC, with a "standard" transformer, not "pulse power" or "pulse width modulation". (this kind of power looks similar to DCC and confuses the decoder) 

The output from the Revolution is indeed Pulse Width Modulated... so powering the track with one is normally not workable with a loco with a sound system... easy rule of thumb, but not an absolute rule. 

By the way, the comparison between what you can do with the Revolution and what you can do with a DCC system is like comparing a ford focus with a ferrari .... both will get you to the corner store, but there the comparison ends. 

Hope this helps.... I suggest you read up a bit on DCC and see what is really out there... there are many manufacturers of it.. and DCC battery powered is closely approximated by the AirWire system by CVP. 

Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Mar 2012 05:18 PM 
...

The output from the Revolution is indeed Pulse Width Modulated... so powering the track with one is normally not workable with a loco with a sound system... easy rule of thumb, but not an absolute rule. 

...




I've heard and seen problems with some of the older LGB loco sound systems that can't tolerate PWM. Are there others? As far as I know, PWM is very workable with most sound systems (Phoenix, Sierra, Dallee, MyLocoSound).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

PWM can make a sierra go full speed unless you put a filter gadget in between... others may have the same problem... phoenix has been known to do this also. 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Just as a point of reference, a number of us regularly use the Phoenix sound system with the Revolution TE with no problems at all. It seems to be able to handle the PWM with no problem. It is true that the Sierra boards don't like PWM, but Aristo has an inexpensive board that converts the signal to linear for the Sierra board. As a side benefit for those of us who use battery power, when using the PWM to linear adapter, it does away with the need for a separate battery for idle sounds, which is nice. 

Ed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The issue with the Sierra and deciphering motor voltage isn't anything to do with PWM _per se_, but how the Sierra reads motor input voltages. Tony Walsham can give a much better explanation than I'd even bother attempting, suffice to say it's not "just" a matter of converting from PWM to linear. The boards that Tony and Aristo sell for interfacing the Sierra with the Revolution (and RCS) products are opto-isolators. (And you've still got to wrangle them a bit to get the Sierra to work 100% as advertised with the Revolution.) Aristo's PWM-Linear board is a different product. It's a straight power filter designed to carry high current. The opto-isolators are not high-current devices. They simply take the motor voltage output of the throttle and convert it into a signal the Sierra can interpret correctly. 

Phoenix not playing well with the Revolution is news to me. Any specifics on the installations? I know there was some confusion when the Revolution first came out relative to connecting the common lead on the Revolution's accessory harness to the Phoenix (don't do it), but that's the only hic-cup I've read about. All the Phoenix/Revo systems I've heard seem to run flawlessly. I had one such combination, but exchanged the Phoenix for a Sierra so I could use the Phoenix with the DCC out of an Airwire receiver instead before I got a chance to really milk the installation. I've got another such combo on order, and I'm anxious to really sit down and do a solid side-by-side comparison of both control protocols' control of the sounds. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo linear board is designed for high current, to take the output of an entire decoder. 

That amount of current is not necessary to convey motor rpm to a Phoenix or Sierra... but it WILL work. Other lower current filters work also.

The optoisolators are there to solve a different problem, but the pulses still need to be "averaged". 

Kevin, I believe you are trying to work backwards from limited information, which has lead you to an inaccurate conclusion. 

Only SOME Phoenix have had problems... let's just leave this to observed information over years, not speculation. 

I think the idea here is to communicate what usually happens and also what MIGHT happen. Notice in my post above I did NOT say the Revolution, but only PWM .... 

The frequency of the PWM can make a difference, like how certain voltage regulation circuits work with PWM and some do not. 

This is way beyond "high current vs. optoisolators". When you know how the PWM frequency interacts with the microprocessors used and what those effects are, then speculation at that level might make sense. (there was a big hint on what is going on). I'm certainly not well versed enough on all the microprocessors and the intermodulation artifacts to do that.

Until then, I will base my statements on actual experience, and the experiences of others posted over the last 10 years or so. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The RCS # SSI-12 uses a circuit designed by Soundtraxx when the Sierra first came out. I used that circuit with permission from Soundtraxx. As far as I know the AristoCraft version uses the same circuit. My innovation was to combine a 12 volt regulator with the opto coupler so that the Sierra could be powered independently of any battery supply. 
I had to use a 12 volt regulator because the Sierra required a 12 volt supply for the diesel sounds otherwise they would not ramp up to notch 8. 
They are only really necessary with Steam and Diesel sounds that require voltage variation to ramp up and down. Otherwise the sound goes to full speed and stays there. This is because most ESC's with PWM signals use N Channel FET(s) and the sound system sees a constant full voltage because there is a sneak path back to ground via the common ground of the sound system and the battery supply. 
If the steam sound uses mechanically timed chuff's the opto isolators were only necessary if you wanted to access the "at idle" effects such as Firemen Fred and the dynamo ON - OFF. 

If Greg says some Phoenix sound systems are bothered by PWM (PWC) I believe him although I have never experienced any problems.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Notice in my post above I did NOT say the Revolution, but only PWM .... 
Please forgive my misinterpretation. Given the context of this thread being fairly specific to the Revo, and the very generic nature of your statement, I inferred you were talking specifically about Phoenix/Revo issues. 

I certainly don't doubt your experiences with PWM and Phoenix, I'd just like to get more information on the environment in which you've noticed these issues so I can avoid or mitigate them down the road. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

In regards to Greg's comments about Phoenix and PWM, I found that my Phoenix boards did not work with the old 27MHz TE when it was in the PWM mode. However, all of my Phoenix boards work just fine with the Revolution TE. I have suspected that this is because the two systems work on a different frequency for the PWM signal. I believe (but am not sure) that the Revolution is running at the lower frequency, and perhaps this is why the Phoenix performs okay. 

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What you stated is what I have found out also Ed, exactly. One thing is the PWM frequency on the new Revo seems to be in question, early reports from Dave Bodnar had a frequency of 9 KHz, which is very surprising, but I find it hard to believe that current production units are at that frequency because this would almost certainly exhibit itself as a very noisy motor, and I have had no complaints in my use of a Revo (evaluation one which was returned) or any of the many people who email me privately with questions. 

I cannot be sure it is the frequency alone, but again, I was trying to make a general statement to people that if they are running some form of PWM, and want to use a sound card, they need to check it out first, or have the ability to return the card if it does not work out. 

Regards, Greg


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## gregg k (Dec 27, 2007)

Greg,
I just read the info on *your* site on DCC and have a better understanding it, thanks. So, I get the AC "wave" vs the traditional DC I use to power the track, the Decoder, Throttle, Command box etc... However, on a very basic level say a dog bone layout in the backyard with an LGB Loco 2045 (Ge 2/4) and I use a 2.4 Crest TE with just the track base and sit in my hammock and a beer. Now with my remote I can start and stop the train and change direction and enjoy it go round and round. 
Now, I buy all the DCC stuff and hook it up and "update" the LGB Loco to the newer Ge 2/4 23450 and sit in the hammock with the throttle and beer in my hand and run it, is there a difference in the visual aspect of running the train for a simple track set up like that? I assume some more things might be controled from the DCC if the loco or my lay out had the capability. 

Now, I switch to the LGB 24440 Gea 2/4 with MTZ and get all the equiptment for that and sit in the hammock... and run it on my dog-bone track, hows this differ? I don't understand what the MTZ, is it LGBs version on the Crest TE.


I get if you are running a complex railroad and use a computer to program complex "things" DCC is the way to go but for a basic setup does the MTZ and TE do the job just fine?


Thanks for helping me understand this. 


Just trying to get a better understanding of all this so I go the direction best for me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Visually, no difference, although good DCC decoders will give very good low speed control, they have lots of tweek options, but really from the "hammock and beer" perspective no difference. 

The big differences in having independent remote control of any kind is more than one loco on the track, or locos in consists, or remote control of sounds, lights, smoke, etc. 

MTS is LGB's "subset" of DCC, they were pioneers in providing it in large scale, but their systems have limitations, although you can update it to almost state of the art by adding other third party components. Basically think of it as abbreviated DCC. 

Yeah, a single loco on a loop of track, no remote sound control, no remote lighting controls, your idea is just fine. 

Now, I cannot imagine having a loco without sound myself, once I heard sound, I was hooked. 

So my advice is to go experience some locos with sound, and see what value it is to you. To me, it added another whole dimension of fun. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Gregg (with two g's at the end) 

You seem to think the Crest 2.4 syste is DCC - it is not. 

Back in 2004 I wrote an article about the various basic ways one can power Large Scale trains. 
I just managed to find that again on my Mac and uploaded into my mls webspace. 
You can take a look at it - maybe this will help. 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/krs/Powering Options for LScale.pdf 

Remember, the article is now eight years old, I assume it needs some updating but the basics should still be correct. 
The Crest system falls under the category: "Radio Control with on-board battery" although constant power from the track can be used as well. 

Knut


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

What a great review of the various systems for powering and controlling our trains, Knut. Nice work!!!! Very thorough, detailed and objective. 

Ed


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