# Thanks again Dr. Rivet



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I was able to make it out to Dr. Rivet's live steam paradise this morning, and stay long enough to cannibalize his Ruby while he was'nt looking. I owe him an O-Ring. A lovely day, some very kind and friendly folks, sorry I could not stay longer


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_[Wot? No Pics?]_

I didn't set out to photograph everything, just my stuff and anything cute or interesting, sorry. 
Here's Jason with the prototype Accucraft Mason Bogie, which he was running when I arrived in the morning:












Here's another shot of the Bogie, plus another of Juston's boiler interiors and my C-16 in the steaming bay(s):










My C-16 again, warming the water before its run:











The C16 and my EBT train. (It's for sale, by the way.)











Amongst the usual suspects was this cute Regner "Willi":











And finally, on Narrow Gauge weekend, Dr Rivet lets us run almost anything, so I took the EBT Mikado:


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote, glad i was able to help you out with the Oring issue. I didnt relize that it was you until after you left already. 

Here are some quick unedited video of the Mason. I still have to create some sort of video but at least everyone can drool.

Photos to follow.







Also my new Wrightscale Porter after the few repairs I made that day.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

There were some questions as to what was done to the Porter. Basically the burner did not light at all. ended up being that someone changed the jet to a much larger one, also installed a screen. I ended up fitting a much smaller jet that a friend had with a holder at the meet. I turned it down on a drill press and a file in order to fit in the burner to get it running. There were also some bolts missing that secure the boiler that I installed. Then I noticed that the one piston was hitting the front cover and the rod was already screwed all the way in s I filed out about 5 thou on the rod and it took care of it. I then attempted to run on stram aftyer the air test was successful. Everything worked in well and ran much better on steam the mroe I ran. 3 full runs, made about a 750' run each fill up.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

A great time at Dr. Rivet's Narrow Gauge steam-up this last weekend. Lots of friends and many engines and trains running.

From what was on my camera, it looked like the Santa Cruz Mountain operations of the Santa Cruz & Felton RR and the South Pacific Coast RR had been transported to Northern Virginia:

Cooper and Cliff's Shay with SC&F #3 in the background:











And the rod engines overtaking the Shay:











A couple of shots of SC&F #3 double headed with SPC #3 hauling an SPC 4-4-0 from Boulder Creek to Newark --- after the disastrous engine house fire (flatcar load courtesy of Jon):




















And a video of the proceedings with a very slow speed run-by of the beautiful new Accucraft Mason Bogie to end the clip:



Thank you again to Jim and Jo-Anne for hosting.

Best regards,

Alan


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## ETSRRCo (Aug 19, 2008)

Nice video! Wish I could have been there.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some of the photos of the Mason


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The photos and videos really speak 1000 words. It ran very well and the amount of detail was amazing. I think this project really came a long way from the days of everyone saying it wont get built. With the help from David Fletcher, Winn Erdman, Noel Crawford and myself I am amazed that it all was pulled off.


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

Spectacular!!!! 
Dr. J


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## aankus (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow








that shot of the Mason Bogie with the wiff of smoke is suitable for framing !








The detail superceedes even my Fort Wilderness, very nice !









I have my Tenmille on order, when will they be available









Before Christmas, I hope


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks guys, Ireally enjoy your pictures and videos. They are really really outstanding. Maybe some day I can show up to watch. 
Paul


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, thats how we recruit new live steamers. Sure come on over and watch, You want to run it? Go ahead fire it up, it's easy. The next day all your sparkie's are on ebay and diesel is a dirty word.....


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

Thats what I am afraid of. Then I would have to build a place to run them. They are sure fun to watch. 
Paul


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I only have one live steamer but it's very tempting. What stops me is the track-our garden railway is just not all that good for live steam. Too many grades, too steep. But maybe a shay--a shay would be great....


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, did you also take a photo inside the cab? Best, Zubi


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Beautiful big[/b] pics, Jason. _(Good job the moderator is asleep.)_


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, just woke up did ya'. It's been a fair piece back that max width was changed to 800 pixels, besides you should of been here earlier, when they were 1024.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

It was great seeing you guys at the Doctor's steamup this past weekend. Low key, lots of track time, really laid back. Thanks again Jim, and express my thanks to Joanne


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

there's a Wrightscale Porter being offered for sale on the SitG web site.... they are hard to come back...


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes they were big but only 200k, I was hoping that everyone can see the detail as the small photos are just well.....tooooo small.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The boiler holds about 160cc and is good for 12-15min before refilling with the hand pump. Everyone will he happy with the nice small hand pump just now be ready for about 100 strokes to fill the boiler.

Notice the RC section on the bunker. Though it was noted to Accucraft the bunker needs to be water tight.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Thanks Jason, this looks really sweet! Best, Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Beautiful big pics, Jason. (Good job the moderator is asleep.) The limit on photo size was raised to 800 pixels wide some time ago Pete.







Almost everyone is on some form of broadband now so there's no need to be as restrictive as in the past when dialup was far more common.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The limit on photo size was raised to 800 pixels wide some time ago 

I must have been asleep...


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Nahhh... I don't think it was ever "officially announced" but it's been mentioned here and there several times (like again just now).


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight shouldnt the limit not be pixles but KB size? After all you can have a large photo at 1mb and the same photo at 100-200kb


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, now I come to think of it, did you also take photos from underneath? How is the steam delivery solved? I assume there is a superheater and a flexible (plastic?) pipe to the cylinders. Will it burn like on the NGG-16s? Many thanks, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, 

I did look underneath. Plenty of room for an axle pump over the 2 and 3 axles.. The superheater goes through the flue then under the smokebox. Hard plastic lines like the rest of the locos they offered. Melting, not sure, it is right below the smokebox and the same lines as in the past. They really should research what Roundhouse used on the Forney. We did notice that on swinging the bogie for tight curves we can pull the steam feed right out of the nut. I assume that they use the same little bubble of brass for a hose barb.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 16 Oct 2009 06:47 PM 
Dwight shouldnt the limit not be pixles but KB size? After all you can have a large photo at 1mb and the same photo at 100-200kb 
I think the main reason for the pixel limit is ithat large photos stretch out margins of the whole forum panel, which stretches out the margins on the text within it as well. Imagine you had a long discussion thread that was mostly text, and your monitor is set at 1024x768 resolution (which is still something like 40% of web users last time I checked the stats), but soimewhere in there somebody posted a 1200-pixel wide image. With high jpeg compression the file size and download speed would be pretty reasonable, but the forum margins have now gone beyond the edge of your screen. Not only have to scroll left and right to see the whole image, you have to scroll left and right to read every line of text in the whole thread. It would get annoying after a while.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, regarding the axle pump: yes, I am sure there is plenty of space available for one on the M-B. They would need to fit an eccentric, a mounting plate, plumbing including two flexible pipes, and of course a valve, optimally under the cab so that it would not be very visible. This sounds to me like an additional $250-300. But my most serious concern is, would it actually work, we just have a fresh thread pointing out what their pump does to the Cab-Forward. On Royal Hudson's axle pumps were also not fault free, although I understand that his was just an unnecessary o-ring issue which once solved does not come back. To make a long story short, yes, a tiny, *working* axle pump would be great to have on the M-B, as long as the loco would still be able to self-start as many people will want to have R/C on their M-B's. I guess, Accucraft could develop one for retrofitting later, but this would require holes for plumbing and both the eccentric and the mounting plate pre-installed. Best, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

You hit another concern I have on the MB. RC on the Johnson bar. I dont know how it will work until we can actually install it. I think for the RC live styeam versions that you will not be able to run on anything under 12' dia or so due to the slack needs to be taken up on all the linkages for RC to work.. Look at the connection to the radius rod from the bell rig. In order to go from foward to neutral we needed to put it in reverse to get neutral. And for reverst you had to pull all the way back in the wide slots on the johnson bar..Wish I took a photo of the johnson bar to see.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Well, it seems they need to work a bit more on the prototype... In the photo I can see what appears to be the plastic steam delivery pipe coming out from the smokebox. That does not look good. Yes, Roundhouse somehow solved this before on their Forney and now on the Taliesin. Unfortunately I do not have either of these locos to compare. Best, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup and its a very short section of the plastic pipe. To me it seems that it needs to be more flexable and with a loop to swivel. I gave Cliff information for a hose I have been testing on my K28 and it works very well and is also oil resistant. Been using it for the water/gas and tender heater lines. Its a 3mm/1/8" hose thats bonded to a braided weave that is so flexable that you can make a 1" dia circle without kinking. If you or anyone else are interested go to a Mercedes dealer and ask for the desiel fuel injection return hose. Sold by the meter but at about 30.00 US


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, got any pics of this new hose??


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, that's what I thought too, a vertically positioned loop to swivel, that would provide twice the length and in addition to bending, there would be torsion action so even relatively stiff pipe would be OK. Plus, a loop would adjust to changing distance between the smokebox and the cylinders. The way it is now there is only bending of the pipe, looks like not enough flexibility, no accommodation for changing distance and of course possible burning due to flame down the smokebox. I hope Cliff will take this issue seriously! Best wishes, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 25 Oct 2009 07:26 PM 
Yup and its a very short section of the plastic pipe. To me it seems that it needs to be more flexable and with a loop to swivel. I gave Cliff information for a hose I have been testing on my K28 and it works very well and is also oil resistant. Been using it for the water/gas and tender heater lines. Its a 3mm/1/8" hose thats bonded to a braided weave that is so flexable that you can make a 1" dia circle without kinking. If you or anyone else are interested go to a Mercedes dealer and ask for the desiel fuel injection return hose. Sold by the meter but at about 30.00 US 


I think you may have meant supply hose, at least online MB catalogues only list F.I. hose as supply type. Anyhow, I can locate the MB fuel hose online but it's spec'd at 5mm ID. Without a specific MB model a search is little tough, and 5mm ID seems a bit large. I checked several recent years and models in each, including V6, V8 and V12, gas and diesel. They all use the same fuel line hose (from Link #1 below):


_Part #N203551 
List - $11.50
Your Price - $5.23__*Brand / Description * _
_*Fuel Hose/Line; Fuel Rated; Braided 5mm ID; Bulk* _
_*Please verify ID of existing hose to be replaced prior to ordering. Sold by the meter. *_










Does this look like the hose you're using and do the specs match? Is the hose you have for a specific MB year and model?

One last question. Could you possibly, please, measure the minimum radius bend the hose can make without kinking? Minimum radius bend determines if another material flexible hose, but smaller ID, could be substituted.



Thanks.

*Links: *

MB Online parts: 
1. AutohausAZ - http://www.autohausaz.com/mercedes-auto-parts/index.html
OR
2. Mercedes Benz Parts And Accessories Online - http://www.mercedespartsonline.com/


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Its the return line that comes from the injectors. The dealer will know exactly what your talking about. When I found it I was just passing through a parts department one day and saw it hanging on the rack. Dont know what year it fits but they did tell me its the injector return hose. Its a small hose like the photo but its grey


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

the return line that comes from the injectors 

As far as I know, most older-style diesels have a return hose. (I can't speak for the latest electronic common-rail diesels - mine are about 8 years old.) The fuel is pressurised and sent to the injectors, and unused fuel is returned to the tank. 

On boats, we struggle to figure accurate fuel consumption. The guys who supply after-market systems have to assess the return fuel as well as the ingoing fuel. The new electronic ones compute it for you and the display tells you the consumption rate. 

I suspect any diesel up to about 2005 will have a high-pressure diesel fuel return hose. Your Volkswagon dealer would be a less-expensive alternative to M-B! 

Edit: Yup - *Injector return Line Kit*


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

its a very short section of the plastic pipe. 

Coincidentally, I was emailing Cliff about the water pump and check valve - which is fitted in that big space in the bunker of the M-B (Mason Bogie, not Mercedes Benz.) 
Jason - is the water pump standard[/i]? Sorry - stupid question; Accucraft's website makes no mention of it as a standard feature, though all the current locos seem to have provision for the pump in the tender, as shown on this model. 
With a rigid frame they used solid pipe from the pump to the backhead. Jason's photo doesn't show a 'standard' check valve - wonder what they used.Anyway, the cute little .PDF that Accucraft offers with the water pump says (click: estore) that a hose of type unspecified be used between the check valve and the pump. Cliff told me to use windshield washer pipe from the auto parts store. I got some and it is 5/32 ID (roughly) making it ideal for the Acc check valve. The hose is designed for high-ish pressures and is quite thick, so it might be a good alternate. Not sure how it will take the heat though.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

That should be fine for water but the MB hose is Viton with a weave for durability but for out case acts as a sleeve so it doesnt expand with the pressure. 

The return lines on the injectors are low pressure but due to the heat and abrasion they use the encased hose.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason: 

I guess it's too much time with diesel tractors. I dug up (Google) modern diesel engine designs (at least for German cars) and they feature a very high pressure closed loop (supply&return) fuel system. How about that?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Probally the same for their cars as this hose is for the older 300 series and such engines. 

Funny thing is I mentioned it to Cliff over a year ago and they still went nowhere with it. Never even picked up any to try as a replacement. At least from what Cliff told me recently. I am currently out of the hose and have to get more.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a very high pressure closed loop (supply&return) fuel system 
My understanding is that the return goes back to the tank, which (on my boat anyway) isn't pressurized. So at some point the return fuel line isn't at as high a pressure as the incoming fuel. 

I agree with jason that the viton with metal banding to withstand pressure sounds like a good bet. When I found the VW link, I also found lots of folk selling diesel fuel delivery/return tubing. 

I am also assuming the AC-12 has similar tubing from the boiler to the front engine? What's on that - silicon tubing?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter, et. al 

The AC-12 uses flexible piping to the rear engine (nearest the tender). The makeup of this piping is quite hard, a translucent Polyethylene pipe that looks much like what one can pick up in the plumbing section of Home Depot or Lowes. 

It is very similar to the lines used by Roundhouse on the Forney. It lasts for quite a long time under the right conditions, but is susceptible to fire or excessive heat. I am not sure if the MB has a cheater-hole to allow the heat and condensate to escape, but if it does, a heat shield is in order to protect the piping, much like on the Garrett. 

I would not recommend the diesel return line for one major reason: Heat Resistance. Superheated steam from our small scale engines is delivered in temperatures upwards of 700*F, which is far beyond what a diesel return line (Buna N, viton, or Tygon composition) is rated for. 
The highest heat range for Viton Fluroelastomer tubing is +301*F -- +500*F 

Having experience with the AC-12 and experimenting with various tubing, I can safely rule out the braided viton for steam delivery to the power bogie. A mechanical ball/socket joint would be preferred, but the supplied tubing with the locomotive will be adequate enough and should last for a long time so long as the driver is careful in their fire management!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By rbednarik on 28 Oct 2009 09:44 AM 
[...] A mechanical ball/socket joint would be preferred, but the supplied tubing with the locomotive will be adequate enough and should last for a long time so long as the driver is careful in their fire management! 
Ryan, that is exactly what Accucraft UK recommended for their NGG-16... I am so careful, that I simply do not steam my NGG-16s;-(... Neither the original design nor the reworked versions have any fire shield under the smokebox. But the third run has the metal pipe extended. On the first run there is plastic directly under the hole in the smokebox. Gordon kindly sent me a kit with a shield. But many other's burnt their pipes... Better be careful!!!
And on the Mason Bogie, I really think that it should be a metal pipe coming out from the smokebox and going under the boiler not a plastic tube. There is enough place there to start with L-shape tube then plastic for flexibility, return with U-shape tube, plastic again and into the cylinders. both plastic tubes would accomodate all sideways and torsional movements of the bogie. I suppose I need to make a drawing and post here and send to Cliff. Best, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan: 
Did you possibly make a typo on that +700F figure for superheated steam? It seems awfully high?


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan - its probably not really superheated, but saturated steam heading down those pipes - despite the superheater. I think of the superheater as more of a dryer. So 400 degrees is probably closer to it. But that hardly matters. It is hot, and not something to mess with. Want me to look it up in my thermo book? 

Nah, I didn't think so.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

700 deg?? Even at 100 PSI the boiler temp is just 328 deg. At 1000 PSI the boiler is still only 545 deg . I doubt that a through flue superheater will more then double the temps.

Polyethylene is only rated for about 200 deg


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, Ryan is talking about the steam in the superheater not in the boiler, this can reach much higher temperatures as it is an open system - steam will leave the superheater and go to the cylinders if the regulator is open, or indeed, it will reach very high pressure if the regulator is closed. Locally, the superheater must achieve temperatures approaching 1000 degrees Celsius judging from the black body temperature graph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PlanckianLocus.png Best, Zubi 
PS I just checked this steel graph and the black body estimate is not that far off http://www.uddeholm.com/files/Temperature_guide.pdf


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 28 Oct 2009 08:04 PM 
Jason, Ryan is talking about the steam in the superheater not in the boiler, this can reach much higher temperatures as it is an open system - steam will leave the superheater and go to the cylinders if the regulator is open, or indeed, it will reach very high pressure if the regulator is closed. Locally, the superheater must achieve temperatures approaching 1000 degrees Celsius judging from the black body temperature graph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PlanckianLocus.png Best, Zubi 
PS I just checked this steel graph and the black body estimate is not that far off http://www.uddeholm.com/files/Temperature_guide.pdf 
Zubi, 

Thank you for the excellent explanation. You have explained it far better that I could have (thermodynamics is not my best area). You are correct in that I was discussing superheater and superheated steam temperatures, not saturated steam and boiler temperatures. 


Chris:
+700* F was a rough estimate as it was difficult to get an accurate reading with the heat sensing gun when I last did this experiment. Don't hold me to that as I do not possess highly calibrated or specialized equipment to measure this, only a working knowledge of burner temperature ranges and a mediocre heat gun used to check for hot bearings on automobiles. 


John:
The difference here lies in the Accucraft superheater being exposed directly to flame, and coming in contact through conduction current rather than convection as most return flue superheaters are. This is the reason for the roughly 300* increase in temperature. 

The direct flame contact escalates the steam temperature to that of being able to vaporize oil in the superheater. Oil which has a relatively high flash point. Following Zubi's science, the temperature of 1000* C equates to roughly 1832* F. Let us assume that this a concentrated hot spot on the superheater pipe caused by proper combustion of the gasses (usually just beyond the burner tube), the temperatures traveling down the stainless steel piping would reduce by the heat radiation rate of the stainless piping, aided by the now dried steam flowing through it. I am going to estimate that given the short length of the MB supeheater and boiler/burner, that there will be less heat loss than in a AC-12. 
Therefore I would estimate the temperature to fall within the 550-700* range. You can probably give me better hard data, but from my on-the-street experience, the temperatures coming directly out of the end of a superheater tube are much higher than any flexible tubing can sustain for an extended period of time. Even an O-ring sealed mechanical pivot joint will, without the proper divorced lubrication to cool the O-rings, fail within a few operating sessions. 


Jason:
The polyethylene is only an educated guess as Accucraft has not released the composition of their flexible tubing. Comparing the sample I have here to other common materials, polyethylene seemed to be the best fit. It could also possibly be PVDF (Kynar), Polypropylene, or PTFE. None of which have a temperature range capable of supporting maximum working temperatures upwards of 400-500*F. The steam is not so much a problem as is the conduction of heat through the superheater piping.
Viton only has a working range up to +400* F, and only has a maximum temperature withstanding of +500*F. I have tried this tubing on the AC-12's and found that it became hard and brittle after only two 30 minute firings. The steam pressure disintegrated (more blew apart) the brittle tubing at the end of the second firing. This was on a stock locomotive with stock lubrication and mechanics. Speaking from experience, properly shielded and maintained, the OEM tubing seems to have the best life expectancy. Not having seem the MB, I can only speak from experience on the other Accucraft articulated engines. 


--The point is that any flexible tubing will eventually fail due to repeated heat exposure and torsional/lateral stresses. To resolve this problem either the superheater should be eliminated to help keep temperatures within specifications, or as Zubi suggested, the hard piping be extended below the locomotive to allow the heat to radiate to a point where the piping can handle the temperatures. A third alternative would be to create a mechanical pivot joint to replace the steam piping, although this is cost prohibitive in the case of the MB


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi - I under stand that were talking about superheated steam. 

The MB the hose is as expected directly under the smokebox and 2 are side by side open and completly visable, Both the feed and return. Of course being such a small boiler there is no need to have to crank the fire to get and keep a good head of steam like the Garrett and CF that have huge boilers. They do have the typical opening on the smokebox for the plumbing and also for a drain. Whatever the hose I know Cliff said that they get it from Mcmaster Carr along with where they get all the Orings.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Ryan, we can tell from the colour (emitted light) how hot is the pipe locally, but traveling steam will cool down rapidly in contact with cooler sections of the pipe. Fast traveling steam exiting the superheater will be hotter than the end section of the pipe but it will also be cooler than the hottest section as both heating and cooling takes time. But without measurements or calculations, we can only guesstimate. I think that it is quite difficult to say what will be the actual temperature of steam exiting the superheater. One would really need to know a lot of parameters for calculating this, we can now better admire all the engineering which went into designing real steamers;-) BTW does anyone know how the steam was delivered to cylinders on real Mason Bogies? Best, Zubi


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi,

David Fletcher can probably give more insight on how the steam was delivered, but I imagine there was a ball-socket mechanical joint that supplied steam to the power bogie, as most articulated locomotives had in real life. Something along the lines of this: AC-12 Mechanical Pivot Joint would probably be close, although this is kept simple. 

You are absolutely correct that my figures are only rough estimates, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I have a feeling that on the relatively short superheater, my figuring is not that far off, as even when the superheater is just a deep red, the temperatures are nearing 600*C (around 1100*F). So there is still quite a conduction of this heat traveling down the piping, regardless of what is passing through it. 
Yes the steam will cool the pipe somewhat, but that is not the root cause of the problem, rather it is the near direct contact with the conducted burner heat that causes the flexible piping to become work hardened, brittle and susceptible to failure. 

Jason's description reveals the piping setup and although the boiler does not have to be fired heavily, there will be those operators that are not careful enough in their fire management, and the lines are prone to the excessive heat resulting from over-firing. I am not sure if there is room for a heat shield to be fitted between the bogie and boiler saddle, but perhaps this should be looked into as well. 

The roundhouse forney uses a similar piping setup, but the intake and exhaust piping is extended back along the boiler once exiting the smokebox. Here is a good photo to show the pipe setup:










There are very few instances of failed piping on the forney and all seem to be using a pipe similar to what is supplied from the Accucraft factory. This is the easiest solution I see to preventing the flexible piping from failing.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a drawing of the orginal Mason Bogie steam swivel joint. You figure it out.

Forget it . It will not upload even though I have it a 54 KB. 
N.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Noel, 

Send it to me and I will upload it at work (fiber-optic connection).


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey All,

If interested the following is a link to some of W. Mason's U.S. Patents, in PDF format.

W. Mason U.S. Patents[/b]


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ryan for the offer, but Steve has posted a better group of info. 
Noel


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Noel, 
No problem, anytime you need to upload something big, just let me know. 

Steve, 
Thanks for the great patent uploads. It is a little different than I was expecting, more of a slip joint, but still fairly easy to replicate.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps,
The first real success with the flexible steam pipe arrangement Mason had was with the bearing plate system as shown with Steve's Patent Office sketches from 1874...it was the first system that worked well enough for the flexible truck to work, previously both the Fairlies in the UK and William Masons versions had leaking steam pipes that caused much loss of efficiency. While the Patent is 1874, the 0-6-6T 'Torch Lake' of 1873, preserved at the Henry Ford Museum uses that system with the steam pipe delivery right through the centre of the bearing plate. There were problems however - the bearng plate also had to be a good seal, and used the engine weight, which worked great. What didn't work was that the truck became too stiff and inflexible to pivot and caused flange wear to the lead driver set. If you look at one of Steve's Patent drawings from 1877 you'll see how Mason added a couple of levers to the sides of the pivots to literally lift the weight of the engine off the bearing plate to some extent. This was first applied on the Centennial 0-4-4T of 1876. The loco was extensively used on the NG railroad around the pavillions of the exposition....and flange wear was still a major issue with the design.

So in 1877 he changed the steam pipe delivery, and changed the bearing plate to something simpler. Basically he dropped the design of steam delivery through the bearing plate, and brought the steam pipes forward of the bearing plate. The bearing plate surfaces were reduced to reduce the friction. The steam pipe now ran from smokebox, under the boiler to the bearing plate - the steam pipe at this point was supported by the bearing plate, but no steam goes into the plate..the steam pipe under the boiler is completely rigid. The pipe then does a U turn back toward the cylinders, via two heavy sping tied joints, allowing the lower steam pipe to pivot. The pivoting joints are clamped together via long spring loaded bolts. Since the pivot near the truck bearing is not at the truck pivot centre, but forward of the truck centre, the steam pipe pivot is not perfectly in line with the swing of the truck...at the position where the rigid steam pipe connects with the side of the truck mount is a small slip joint. As the loco chassis pivots, the steam pipe joint just in front of the chassis pivot slides out of the bearing plate an inch or so. The design to the steam pipe is all pivots, no telescopic steam pipes or such. (the Avonside single Fairlies of 1878 were using telescopic, lapped steam pipes). The 0-6-6T Bully Boy for the NPC and the LT Smith for the Kansas Central were built with this new design, along with the 0-6-6T 'Oro City' for the DSP&P in 1878.

On the sharp curves of the DSP&P flange wear on Oro City was still a problem. So in late 1878, with the delivery of 'San Juan' (our Accucraft model!), the loco design was changed to a 2-6-6T for the first time - San Juan was actually the first 2-6-6T to be built. Mason had given up trying to make the bearing plate any more flexible, and instead moved to a new pilot truck design. It is not the Bissell truck design you'd think, and has no actual pivot...rather was a square framed truck hooked to the loco frame via two heaving springs just near the cylinders on each side. The truck would literally pull the front end of the chassis into the curve. It worked, flange wear reduced to normal. With the delivery of San Juan in 1878, a 2nd Mason pilot truck was delivered with it, and fitted to Oro City to convert this engine into a 2-6-6T as well. From San Juan onward, the rest of the DSP&P Masons all had the pilot truck fitted as part of their design.

Here is a drawing I did for the MLS Masterclass showing the steam pipe as provided with the 2-6-6T and 2-8-6T DSP locos, and you can also see the spring housings for the pilot truck.


David.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that Winn Erdman had the right idea about a steam swivel joint in his Bogie build. Pictures of it are on this web site somewhere. I have some saved. In stainless it would be probably better than the hose stuff. 
Noel


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Noel, 

Per your request: 

Winn's steam swivel/bearing plate joint: 



























Simple enough and can be made with minimal machining. 

The revised MB mechanical joint is even simpler, one can use custom banjo bolts and o-rings to create pivot points. Some cheating is necessary to allow for track drop-off and tight radii, by means of a telescoping joint on the lower steam pipe, but overall, a simple design indeed. I will see about drawing up a CAD sketch this month, might be a nice retrofit.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

We did suggest Winn's idea is obviously China though it would not be a viable option. A hose barb and a hose is the most inexpensive way to do it. Im pretty sure we wont see any changed in the piping and about 99.99% sure we will not see an ad on axle pump for it. The answer I got is it is far too underpriced, and to engineer the pump to be a bolt on would take too much time. Very disappointing as it was one of the few things that many people wanted.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

It looks like there may be a market for someone who can produce steam joints or axel pump kits for the MB at a reasonable price. Nick Jr


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Issue is that the frame is not pre drilled for any brackets and also for the most part the general public will not pay what it would be to install an axle pump on a low production. If Accucraft can make a bolt on Kit for 200-300 I think it would sell. For someone to have to make all the brackets, take the frame apart and drill the frame for the pump supports it would be cost prohibitive on such a complicated power unit. Remember everything below the boiler is bolted to the frame including the pilot and pilot wheels. 

I have not looked closely at the OEM frame spacers but it is possible that it may be used but untill it is out and available for closer inspection and disassembly we wont know. Easiest option is that Accucraft offers a factory designed kit. Boiler consumes about 640 cc of water per hour so designing a pump would be simple.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 28 Oct 2009 09:57 AM 
[...] And on the Mason Bogie, I really think that it should be a metal pipe coming out from the smokebox and going under the boiler not a plastic tube. There is enough place there to start with L-shape tube then plastic for flexibility, return with U-shape tube, plastic again and into the cylinders. both plastic tubes would accomodate all sideways and torsional movements of the bogie. I suppose I need to make a drawing and post here and send to Cliff. Best, Zubi 


OK, I finally found some time to make a quick drawing and upload it. My idea is that there should be two pieces of flexible pipe and a U like tube joining them. Flexibility of this setup can be controlled by the length of the tubes. Obviously we want them as short as possible. This solution is extremely simple and I believe it should be both robust and provide enough flexibility. And, by extending the superheater pipe under the smokebox, flexible plastic pipes can be kept away from the heat coming out from the opening under the smokebox. Finally, the appearance of this solution vaguely resembles prototype solution (except that there are no potentially leaking joints!) Best, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Zubi 

If they didnt decide to make the bogie pivot over the 1 axle and over the 2 axle where is was supposed to be there would be no problem with enlarging the steam pipwork. The way it is now the smokebox opening for the pipes are just at the steamchest pipes. Extending it back with a double U would give you you the flexabilty that is needed but the pivot is right there. I dont understand why the wheel always has to be reinvented.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, I may be wrong, but perhaps they decided to move the pivot from the second axle to the first axle precisely because they wanted to limit the amount of swivel there so that a single straight tube would reach cylinders? In other words, perhaps they tried to solve the problem but came up with a wrong solution. Just my guess. Best, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

When I spoke to Cliff about it he said that he though they did it to keep the lifting lever in line with the pivot. Didnt think it was all that necessary as there are 2 working live steam bogies with the Fletches valve gear. With the pivot all the way foward it also does not distribute the weight to the drivers properly. It did slip easily with a load. There is never perfect dry track


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps, you do need to move the pivot forward to align with the lifting rods for this to work on 4' radius. I can see it even on my elec model how much movement there is about the lifting rods. You have to remember that the real Masons chassis only pivoted a few degrees off centre...thus Mason kept the weight over the centre of the truck as the pivot was only small and effect on lifting rods minimal. Our models pivot far more to 4' radius. Keeping the pivot in line with the lifting rods means there is no lateral swing to the rods at all, which on tight curves would snag the running boards. It works. 
On our Masterclass models, we had the pivot in line with the lifting rods, but there was a sliding pad right behind it where the loco weight sat, pretty much over the middle driver. Regardless, if this were a 4 wheel truck and pivot off centre, the weight on all 4 wheels would be exactly the same as a 4 wheel truck with pivot in centre due to the natural equalising..but I dont know whay happens to this when the truck has 6 wheels!

David.


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## alcashj94 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Jason hit the mark in his earlier post when he said it was underpriced - I think Acccucraft put the price on it early on before they had done all the enginnering development needed and now feel they must stick with the price and build to it as best they can. 
I don't have a problem with that, we will get a loco that works and looks great and a limited production run as well. I think once they are out a lot of people that did not pre order will be trying to get one as it is a stunning loco. 
David has explained the reason for the pivot point which makes sense to me, sounds like a lot of work has gone into this loco behind the scenes and I would like to say thanks to those involved. 
Those of us who want to can modify our models if we dont like the steam pipes etc but lets give it a chance and see how it works once they arrive. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with flex tubing for steam lines, a bit of tweaking if required will soon be worked out if there is an issue and there are enough people with the skills to do so on this forum who will pass the word on. 

I'm looking forward to the release! 

Allan.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason and David, On the prototype, the pivot is directly above the middle axle, which is quite logical of course. The lifting rods are about half way between the first and the middle axle, slightly closer to the first axle. I am not sure that I like Accucraft's solution to move the pivot forward, but even in this case, it is enough to move the pivot closer to the lifting rods and keep it between the lifting rods and the middle axle. From the prototype drawings it looks like there is enough space for a U-turn double flexible steam delivery pipe in such an arrangement. But quite frankly, I think that some clever solution should be found for the lifting rods to operate properly at larger than prototypical angles of the bogie while the (prototypically looking) pivot should be kept above the middle axle. Best, Zubi


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Now I know why I really dont want to be a model manufacturer, not worth the aggrevation. 

David.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 28 Oct 2009 09:57 AM 
...Neither the original design nor the reworked versions have any fire shield under the smokebox. But the third run has the metal pipe extended. On the first run there is plastic directly under the hole in the smokebox. 




Zubi:
Accucraft Garratt third run (as delivered); smoke box shield and brass piping.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris, I stand corrected. I only remembered extended pipes and it is quite difficult to turn over the Garratts;-( Well, we will only have one run of the Mason Bogie so I really hope that they will get it all correct the first time. But the prototype is not OK in this respect IMHO. Although I only judge from the single side photo which Jason provided. Best, Zubi


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