# What loco trucks are the best for low speed traction?



## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

I'm planning to build a rotary plow and my thinking is to make it as heavy as possible to gain as much traction as possible. Original plan was to have it pushed instead of powered but the more I think about it I'd like to have it powered as well as pushed. 

To power the plow I'm planning on using either a wheelchair battery or ATV type battery so the total weight of my contraption will be pushing 60lbs if I had to guess. Frame will be of my own design either light steel or aluminum angle iron. Not sure yet if the trucks are going to be powered from track power or a battery pack.

What do you guys recommend for powered trucks? Probably something with the rubber traction bands? I don't see this thing moving too fast...Does anyone make anything geared real low for lots of pulling power at low speed?

Thanks for the help!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Just have a couple of other engines to help push the rotary, that is what most people do, plus it looks more prototypical. My rotary is built on a Aristo B unit frame and is powered by it's trucks but I also have a pusher locomotive behind, but probably need a second in pretty wet snow. You can see how I built mine on my web page, look under the 'projects' button. It's on Page 3 of the projects. Should be a video there also, if not look on youTube under my name.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Sixty pounds?


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Posted By Paul Burch on 05 Jan 2013 09:30 PM 
Sixty pounds? 
I was just guesstimating. I've got a 1/32 scale boat that uses a big batt like that and the weight is 60lbs, I imagine the plow will way MUCH less. My theory is the more weight the better it will plow and will leave less ice behind plus loooong run times with the big battery...or am I WAY off here?


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 05 Jan 2013 09:28 PM 
Just have a couple of other engines to help push the rotary, that is what most people do, plus it looks more prototypical. My rotary is built on a Aristo B unit frame and is powered by it's trucks but I also have a pusher locomotive behind, but probably need a second in pretty wet snow. You can see how I built mine on my web page, look under the 'projects' button. It's on Page 3 of the projects. Should be a video there also, if not look on youTube under my name. I've read your build a few times, great work! What couplers do you recommend?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rubber traction tires will give you the most traction... I'd try to fit them to an Aristo 3 axle block... and for 60 pounds you'll need 4 trucks... I think you could do it at 30.... 

Greg


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Jan 2013 09:38 PM 
Rubber traction tires will give you the most traction... I'd try to fit them to an Aristo 3 axle block... and for 60 pounds you'll need 4 trucks... I think you could do it at 30.... 

Greg 
Anybody sell those or do I have to look for a whole engine to tear down?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, you can buy them on wheelsets for USAT... but I don't think I'd recommend the USAT trucks for what you are doing, the Aristo units are much more rugged. 

Problem is that Aristo uses a tapered connection between wheel and axle... usat uses normal press fit on axle... depending on how much work you are willing to do, you could buy the axle sets from USAT, press out the axles and get a 7 degree taper to ream them out to fit the Aristo. That would work pretty well I think, and then you could always get replacement rubber tires from USAT. 

This is what I would do considering the conditions, the projected weight and the abuse the drivetrain would get. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Have you looked at any of the maker's on line catalogs to see what's available?

I question the value of traction tires on frozen rail.

But for 60lbs.....









That should do it ... 16 powered axles and a snout to hang your rotary blower.

Happy Rails

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, not sure of the rubber compound, but car tires will work on ice and snow... 

Better than slick metal... slick cold metal... 

I think it would still be better traction, but an interesting test... 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Traction tires aren't inflated and are trapped between 2 cold metal surfaces, not much to grip. 
With batteries he could use a fine grit for sand.... just like the big boys, hmmm they don't use rubber. 

John


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Since the rest of you are simply guessing I will try to help you out. 

The wheels need to be SMALL with large flanges, normally they are double flanged -typically they are 3 feet 3 inches in diameter. (Modified old LMS coach wheels) 
Because they are double flanged there is no need for any taper on the tread, which should be left rough -VERY rough!!! 
The best layout is either C0-C0 or C0-B0 with the C0 end where the ploughing system is mounted. 

How do I know this? 

My father was the person in charge of wheel design at the British Rail Technical Centre on London Road in Derby. During November the wheelwrights would use up the scrap old carriage wheels and ship them out to the the MPDs. At about April time the "remains" of the wheels would return to Derby where they would be build welded up to "true" and put aside for the autumn to repeat the process. Most BR era ploughs were based on modified LMS "Mk II" dining carriage chassis and some still retained the kitchen and toilet facilities to feed the crews. 

So, it is not the actual weight of your ploughing system that is the main problem -it is keeping it on the icy rails. This is why the double flanges were used. The typical ploughing system as used by British Rail was a development of the classic "Winterhur" rotary design, but this was powered by a marine air cooled diesel engine rather than steam. 

regards 

ralph


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Zoro, just for you info here, I have several dash-9 sets that could be sold for your rotary project...1-2 locos worth say... 

new - never run... 

pm if interested........ 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Greg please notice Ralph spoke in American measurements here,,, 3 ft - 3 in.. 39'' overall.. 

But I am curious -ouch - the 'ol double flanged trick eh!! 

Seems I recall a pole line like that many yarn ago... pre- steel rails era.. 

used double flanges, on wood poles.. seems a bit dicey in a modern world, using steel rails, 

then there were no switches, so once steel lined the country, and siding and branch lines popped up, seems like things would go ,.... 

bump - bump,.... bump - bump,.... bump-bump... 

Maybe Ralph could clarify a bit .. retractable flanges - or per-chance slotted rails make this system work ... 

:~} Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

never seen a slick car tire work on snow or ice. here in north east special tread and studs


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK, but now but that snow tread and those steel studs ,... 

on steel rails........?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No one said use slick traction tires... If Ralph can use "spool" wheels that will jump off the rails on the switches, I sure as heck can have diamond studded traction tires ha ha! 

Seriously, it would be interesting to try a "smooth" traction tire vs. a "smooth" metal wheel, to see if there is any difference on ice rails. 

I assume that at normal temperatures, there is no argument that a rubber traction tire has a HIGHER coefficient of friction than a smooth loco wheel? 

So, why does this change when it gets colder? At freezing temps for example? Surely this information is on the web. 

Think about it. 

Greg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Several working rotary plows have been built in "Large scale".. 
they usually have electric motors..running off of track power or just "regular" batteries.. 
the same kind of batteries that power battery-powered locomotives.. 

I dont understand the need for gigantic heavy batteries!  
also, super heavy weight also isnt needed for this kind of thing, 
because in this scale, a rotary plow isnt going to be able to deal with anything more than 6" of snow anyway.. 
if you have a foot of snow, its not going to work at all.. 
So the weight of a normal (large diesel) locomotive would be perfectly fine to keep the plow on the rails with 6" of snow or less.. 
Im sensing some serious "over-engineering" here for no gain that I can see.. 
or am I missing something? 

Scot


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Just need some snow chains*


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I doubt you could find any trucks that would support a 60 lb battery and if you did the plastic ties would probably distort/twist. Scot is correct in his post above. 

You should focus your attention on the snow throwing mechanism itself. Some really sharp guys(not me!) have made some mechs that really spin fast, which is what you really need, and throw snow like crazy, but they were well engineered. My drill motor and vacuum cleaner blade work okay, but are a rather simple approach(because I am). Using several engines to push the rotary is the best way to go, but like Scot said you can't do really deep snow, or wet snow anyway.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, 
I thought about it. 
I stuck a rubber windshield wiper in liquid nitrogen. 
When I slapped a table with it, it fractured into many pieces. 

Hmmm cold affects the 'give' in rubber, made it glass hard and brittle. 
Of course I went to extremes, too many variables in the middle. 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zoro:


Here are some pictures of my rotary.




























The battery is 6v 10 amp. As others have said, 4-6 inches is going to be the maximum and the dryer the snow the better. For a very heavy wet snow the max could well be less than an inch.

If you are having trouble with the engine slipping, add more engines. A 60 pound plow is asking for trouble. 

You also want separate power to the motor and the plow, because you will want to control the engine speed and direction and keep the blades going at full speed. 

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, John, almost anything in liquid nitrogen is brittle... freeze your wheels in it and hit them with a hammer, they will most likely shatter also! 

If the weather outside is the temperature of liquid nitrogen, the last thing you would be worrying about is traction for your plow!









We'd all be dead of course.... 


Back to the question, it would be simple to take a traction tire, put in the freezer and see it it's brittle, but moreover, a simple experiment in traction would be easy.

Maybe someone will do it. I have some old USAT ones, I'll put them at zero degrees this weekend.

Greg


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