# Accucraft H-8 Alligheny LIVE STEAM



## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Hello Everybody:

I just noticed a production of an H-8 in electric which I new a long time ago and I just noticed an Allegheny in Live Steam too. Priced at $7,000 usd. The T-1 will be priced at about $5,000 usd. can somebody explain to me how can Accucraft do a H-8 priced at this amount and the ASTER model is priced if you can get one at $25,000 usd. What is the main difference? Is Accucraft doing something different or one to take over the business or shake up things to ASTER models. What is the reasoning behind this prices?

Have a Happy New Year.

Sincerely,

Patricio


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

This should be a good thread...


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Patricio and Jeff - this was covered in great detail about two weeks ago on the new product forum - 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

As ever, any and all contributions are welcome.

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Thank you, Terry: 

I look into the FORUM you mention, other than the Baker vALVE gear, I could not see other thing that justifies the difference in price, between Accucraft and Aster, of course, I dont have the expertise you all have. Perhaps, many years ago, everybody run to buy the Aster H-8 thinking that it would be difficult to other company to do it. I do not know, other than asking again the question ¿ Why is the difference in price? If someone was lloking for an ASTER model H-8, should he stop and reconsider? 

best regards, 

Patricio


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Post deleted


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## LNER D17 (Jan 4, 2009)

I've got two US Asters, one coming up for 28 years old and the other nearly 27. They both perform as well as my Aster Berkshire, this indicates to me the quality of the Aster products. I have many locos visiting my railway some of which are bespoke handbuilt machines which cost a great deal of money, Asters although produced in quantity are up to the same standard. This is not to denegrate otherlarge scale manufacturers, but some of the visiting locos made by Aster rivals have needed some work to get them up to scratch. To my mind if you want a first class replica of the real thing then Aster are the best bet, the GWR 4-6-0 Castle is a working four cylinder locomotive and such finness costs money.
John Squire


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## Tim Hytrek (Jan 2, 2008)

I am sure that the price difference is justified some how, but what is important is that accucraft is selling this model at a price that opens it up to more people. Many people in this hobby cannot justify spending 25K on one engine. 7K is still a lot of money, but there will be people who can now obtain an A-8 Allegeny that previously could only admire someone elses.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

FWIW the kit price on the Aster H8 was $17,650. and 21,590 factory built, per a "SouthernSteam Trains" price sheet I have. I don't know what people actually paid for them, but I doubt you can buy one for that today. like most Asters they have held their value pretty well when kept is good order.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Just don't expect a full-loaded Mercedes-Benz for Lada money is all I'm sayin'. 

tac


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

If Accucraft never came into the building of live steam. I would still be running sparkie's.... 
They made a lot of locomotives that are affordable.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By livesteam53 on 31 Dec 2010 03:16 PM 
If Accucraft never came into the building of live steam. I would still be running sparkie's.... 
They made a lot of locomotives that are affordable. Wel, I have six of 'em, but like I noted before, all but one needed work to make 'em work.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I ran my newly completed 5MT this afternoon and it reminded me just how good these Aster machines are and how they continue to develop with working cylinder drains, piston vales and incredible attention to detail. I also ran my King George V and it was an interesting contrast - pulling exactly the same load at the same speed on the same track, the 5MT put out a modest plume whereas the the KGV positively belched forth clearly using more steam to do the same job. 

Aster engines are very authentic to the original design but this doesn't necessarily make them efficient small scale steamers. The 4 cylinders of the KGV are less efficient than the 2 on the 5MT just as the Allegheny with 4 cylinders is (much) less efficient than the Berkshire. It is all about friction v cylinder volume. Aster also implements the original valve gear to scale on all the later models but the build up of tolerances over multiple components can lead to 'slop' in the system especially with Walshaerts. Eccentric slips are probably more accurately timed and probably therefore more efficient which, I guess, is why the Accucraft Britannia has used this technique with dummy Walshaerts. It will interesting to see what design compromises Accucraft make with the Allegheny - using pressure hose to connect the steam lines to the forward engine rather than the byzantine system of sliding tubes that Aster use would make the machine run far better! 

All depends what you are looking for - an authentic reproduction that actually works and is faithful to the original, then an Aster is the choice. Somethiing that runs really well and is more affordable but maybe not quite as close on detail, then Accucraft does a great job even if they need a little tweeking out of the box to get the best from them. I'm lucky enough to own examples of both and I treat them all with equal affection. 

I do worry about Aster pricing. Some of the difference can be justified by quality but rather more is down to the differences between Chinese and Japanese manufaturing costs. I don't know how long this is sustainable. At the risk of starting a flame war, Aster design with Chinese manufacturing costs would be an interesting proposition. 

Robert


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert
"Eccentric slips are probably more accurately timed and probably therefore more efficient which, I guess, is why the Accucraft Britannia has used this technique with dummy Walshaerts."

Could be that along with a higher priority of cost savings. Though I have seen "slop" in slip eccentrics thus unable to keep timing.


However the H-8 from Accucraft is configured it is going to be compared to the Aster. IMHO a big gamble by Accucraft given the numerous large steam engines that could have been offered: for example N&W(2-6-6-4 2-8-8-2), D&RGW4-6-6-4), DM&IR (2-8-8-4). The most impressive offering would have been a true compound Mallet of the N & W Y6b. If Accucraft really wanted to impress those who enjoy big engines a true compound would have been it. Accucraft could have gotten out of the "follow me" mode to more of let us show others the way for their next "BIG" live steam locomotive.


In closing I always thought that tractive effort was the best measurement of a locomotive which includes factors of drivers, boiler, pressure, cylinder, pistons,etc. As such some Accucraft standard gauge engines have had boiler/firing/pressure issues, cylinders too big, and lacking in efficiency with timing issues. As to Aster it seems their ratio of scale size to 1:1 dimensions of components are a better match. For example a stock Aster GS4 has small more appropriate sized cylinders and could maintain 60 PSI but the stock Accucraft GS4 could not. I am hoping this will not be the case for Accucraft H-8 for the "price is right" in today's economical times!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Privero, you know the answer to your question. You have seen the quality that goes into an Aster engine. On the other hand...........you can take your chances and get the Accucraft. Thankfully, there is Charles and his son Ryan who can tune, fix, and make any Accucraft better. I think that it would be impossible even for them to run steam through the fake pipes to the cylinders that will be on the Accucraft. As always, you get's what you pays for. 
It's about time for John Frank, the Accucraft apologist to chime in about now.











HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL !!!!!!!!!![/b]


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## Tim Hytrek (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not a snob, and can appriciate a good deal when I see one. I have several accucraft engines and cannot think of one that does not perform to expectations. I do the same with tools for my work.. Snap on thinks they can charge extra because of their name, And they do make good tools. They also run a line called Blue Point. Snap on will mark up Blue Point tools, which are made by outside vendors. But they wont warranty them. Matco will also sell tools from outside vendors, but if it is good enough to go on their truck, they warranty it, and they charge less overall. Two different attitudes toward selling a product that has the same ends to the meaning. Being wise enough to not subject myself to the label, I go for the best deal. And i9f I have to modify an engine to make it run better, well that is part of the "Fun" for me. I realize that not all people think like me, and really dont care, as they are intitled to their opinion, and can spend as much of their money on what ever they want. That being said I am GLAD that Accucraft realizes that a lot of people are interested in their products.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
While we appreciate the notice in our efforts to ensure Accucraft engines run well for those who they want the optimal performance....just to be fair, TRS services has had about 50-50 Accucraft/ Aster in the shops, this past fall-in regards to Aster:

French Mike
NYC Hudson
C62
PRR K4
USRA Mikado
Berkshire

The difference is replacement parts and tuning vs. modifications for major components. Whether it be Aster or Accucraft. most mechanical things either wear down or break at some point the different in longevity has to do with the quality of parts, the engineering and the operational habits of the owner. Believe it or not even a couple of Roundhouse engines.....


How does all this related to Accucraft H8 production run: even though we have not seen an Aster version in the shop there has been a published article of the "improvements" of the Aster H8 engine and if Accucraft can complete a production run with the minimal necessary improvements as was required for the Aster then it will be a job well done.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Charles and all - I'm sure that whether it is in our budget or not, we are all looking forward to seeing this locomotive from AccuCraft, and more to the point, seeing it succeed in the market and on the tracks. I would rather be happy than be a detractor, and take no joy in raining on anybody's parade, least of all AccuCraft's, but I 'spose I have around $14-15K invested in them over the years, so I'm entitled to make the odd grumble. I also realise that that sum wouldn't buy me a single Aster sparkie Big Boy, but then I have my other interests to spend my spare cash on - I shoot [a lot] and run three M-Bs, including a near 30-year-old 380SL. 

On the plus side, those who saw AccuCraft's 'Kalahari' mike were fulsome in their praise of its performance, and they are, AFAIK, all been sold here in UK. To many people, that loco represents not only the epitome of a large-scale locomotive, but is the line drawn on their spending limit. The Allegheny will sell to another audience - the G1 modeller - with a lump of cash to spend. and it WILL be a lump, too. VAT here has just gone up to 20% this morning, and is added onto just about everything you can imagine - model trains included - so the $7500 that you guys pay will magically turn into about $11500-12000 here. I could be wrong [again], but not by much. 

Happy New Year! 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 01 Jan 2011 06:20 AM 
Robert
However the H-8 from Accucraft is configured it is going to be compared to the Aster. IMHO a big gamble by Accucraft given the numerous large steam engines that could have been offered: for example N&W(2-6-6-4 2-8-8-2), D&RGW4-6-6-4), DM&IR (2-8-8-4). The most impressive offering would have been a true compound Mallet of the N & W Y6b. If Accucraft really wanted to impress those who enjoy big engines a true compound would have been it. Accucraft could have gotten out of the "follow me" mode to more of let us show others the way for their next "BIG" live steam locomotive.

Charles, on this we definitely agree. There are so many fine engines that could be done you have to wonder why Accucraft is duplicating the H-8. Do they detect something in the market that we do not see? Can they sell more H-8's than say a Challenger or a N&W 'A' or Y6b? I think the Cab Forward was a big success for them as they went ahead with a second run. As an SP modeler and fan I would like to see an AC9 if you are going to do an articulated job. There were several railroads that used the 'Yellowstone' wheel arrangement.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/yellowstone/


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 01 Jan 2011 11:34 AM 
Posted By Charles on 01 Jan 2011 06:20 AM 
Robert
However the H-8 from Accucraft is configured it is going to be compared to the Aster. IMHO a big gamble by Accucraft given the numerous large steam engines that could have been offered: for example N&W(2-6-6-4 2-8-8-2), D&RGW4-6-6-4), DM&IR (2-8-8-4). The most impressive offering would have been a true compound Mallet of the N & W Y6b. If Accucraft really wanted to impress those who enjoy big engines a true compound would have been it. Accucraft could have gotten out of the "follow me" mode to more of let us show others the way for their next "BIG" live steam locomotive.

Charles, on this we definitely agree. There are so many fine engines that could be done you have to wonder why Accucraft is duplicating the H-8. Do they detect something in the market that we do not see? Can they sell more H-8's than say a Challenger or a N&W 'A' or Y6b? I think the Cab Forward was a big success for them as they went ahead with a second run. As an SP modeler and fan I would like to see an AC9 if you are going to do an articulated job. There were several railroads that used the 'Yellowstone' wheel arrangement.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/yellowstone/










John 
I concur with you on the Yellowstone having all the necessary parts with an addition detail here and there at least for the SP. Well, I am not waiting for Accucraft it is on our build sheet.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 01 Jan 2011 08:23 AM 
Privero, you know the answer to your question. You have seen the quality that goes into an Aster engine. On the other hand...........you can take your chances and get the Accucraft. Thankfully, there is Charles and his son Ryan who can tune, fix, and make any Accucraft better. I think that it would be impossible even for them to run steam through the fake pipes to the cylinders that will be on the Accucraft. As always, you gets what you pays for. 



After re-reading my own post....................it sure did sound tacky, no way to start of the New Year. Sorry if I offended anybody. Accucraft has made such great strides in their over all quality over the past few years that I would probably own one if it were not the case that everyone that runs at my track would make me eat so much crow.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

No problem Steve everyone has their brand. Just like pickups Ford or Chevy. 

All I know everyone has their choice but we would have a lot less people in live steam if Accucraft never came in the business. 

Then the choice would not be much, and I probably would not be running live steam.


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