# Elevating my layout



## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Hi all,
I've started my G scale adventure just this year. And I've built my first track on the ground level. I feel however, that my layout would be much safer and usable if it was raised. So I'm thinking about elevating the entire 'world' (not just the track) by around 2ft.

I'm planning to build a wooden frame and fill it with soil. Something like this:










My garden is not huge so the frame would not be big either (but would grow in the future). I'm thinking 8ft x 32ft for a start.

Now I have some doubts/questions:
1) Will this even work? Can a wooden frame hold that much soil? Seems I'll need many, many tons...
2) Will a pressure treated wood last for at least 10 years?
3) Is there any alternative to wood that does not require mixing mortar or laying a concrete foundation? (wood seems easiest for me).

I'd really appreciate your opinion. I've posted more details on my blog: http://my-miniature-worlds.blogspot.com/2015/08/garden-works-part-6-idea-for-elevating.html

Thank you in advance!


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

That's similar to how my layout is. Mine is only around a foot high, though. I have landscaping timbers stacked three high, held in place by rebar driven through holes I drilled in them and then down a foot or two into the ground.

This picture shows the layout with track work started.


A couple things to think about:

1. It's a _lot_ of dirt--probably more than you think. 8x32x2 is 500 cubic feet of dirt, or about a yard and a half. Think a dump truck load, or 500 bags of topsoil from the garden center. 

2. At two feet high, I'm not sure a wooden wall, even staked to the ground, will hold back the weight of the dirt. Keep in mind that after a rain, you're talking about significant extra weight pressing out on the walls. You might think about setting the "posts" in holes and then filling them with concrete--similar to how fence posts are set. A good resource for me was gardening sites that have info about raised beds. This is essentially what you're building, and there is a lot of good info about raised beds on those sites.

3. Pressure treated wood seems to hold up pretty well here in Kansas. There's a fence behind my property that's been there four almost 15 and is still on the original pressure treated posts. There can be issues with the chemicals that slow decay and termites leaching out of the wood, though. This can be a problem if you're in a termite-friendly area, as once those chemicals are gone the wood is vulnerable again.

I went with wood because it was easiest and I wanted the layout above "ground" level--even by just a bit--to keep it from being stepped on and making the garden area more defined. One nice thing was that since I wanted concrete roadbed I could fill the bed about 2" from the top, form and pour the concrete, and then fill around it. This eliminated the need for trenching.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

when i would build something like that, i would place the posts/stakes on the outside.
as your plan shows it, all that earth that is pressing against the boards is helt back only by the nails or screws, that hold them in place.
and the wooden connectors in the earth i would replace with steelbars, (threaded on the ends) that would go through holes in the posts, to be helt by screwed on nuts.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*A smaller version*

A few thoughts from my personal experience -
To avoid having to carrying my rolling stock to and from the garage every time I wanted to run some trains, I built what I'd call a "small version" of what you're considering. I'd say your idea can be done but, if nothing else, I'd recommend more cross-bracing.
My train shed is 4x8 ft, made with double "layers" and double height of 1x6 in. cedar. (I believe most areas in the US do not allow burying pressure treated wood because the chemicals can leech into the ground water.) Double height because I wanted only a one foot high "container"; double layer to give me a way to bolt in the layer of 1/8" Lexan. I've only seen train storage like this covered in wood or similar. I use this unit the same way prototype railroads use their yard, so visibility is obviously required (and more attractive, located next to the patio). To maintain the Lexan's strength for security purposes I decided to sandwich the side pieces between the 1x6 cedar boards which are bolted together at four ft. spacing.
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One thing I did not consider was what I call "bowing". As you plan for your layout, I filled my trainshed with topsoil, which I carefully tamped down until it was as firm as I thought was possible. After two or three years I saw that the upper boards had bowed out about 3/8" at the middle of both sides (8 foot length). While this isn't all that noticeable, it has caused some distortion in the Lexan roof. The roof isn't your problem, but my first thought was that you might consider more cross bracing than the 8 foot intervals I see in your illustration.
Given that consideration, I'd say you could have a very attractive surrounding for your layout. (To maintain the cedar's appearance - I dislike "silver" wood - I give the cedar a treatment of Thompson Wood Sealer every spring.)
　
JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*A smaller version*

A few thoughts from my personal experience -
To avoid having to carrying my rolling stock to and from the garage every time I wanted to run some trains, I built what I'd call a "small version" of what you're considering. I'd say your idea can be done but, if nothing else, I'd recommend more cross-bracing.
My train shed is 4x8 ft, made with double "layers" and double height of 1x6 in. cedar. (I believe most areas in the US do not allow burying pressure treated wood because the chemicals can leech into the ground water.) Double height because I wanted only a one foot high "container"; double layer to give me a way to bolt in the layer of 1/8" Lexan. I've only seen train storage like this covered in wood or similar. I use this unit the same way prototype railroads use their yard, so visibility is obviously required (and more attractive, located next to the patio). To maintain the Lexan's strength for security purposes I decided to sandwich the side pieces between the 1x6 cedar boards which are bolted together at four ft. spacing.
-----------
　
One thing I did not consider was what I call "bowing". As you plan for your layout, I filled my trainshed with topsoil, which I carefully tamped down until it was as firm as I thought was possible. After two or three years I saw that the upper boards had bowed out about 3/8" at the middle of both sides (8 foot length). While this isn't all that noticeable, it has caused some distortion in the Lexan roof. The roof isn't your problem, but my first thought was that you might consider more cross bracing than the 8 foot intervals I see in your illustration.
Given that consideration, I'd say you could have a very attractive surrounding for your layout. (To maintain the cedar's appearance - I dislike "silver" wood - I give the cedar a treatment of Thompson Wood Sealer every spring.)
　
JackM


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Should've been included with my post above.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

JackM said:


> I'd say your idea can be done but, if nothing else, I'd recommend more cross-bracing.


Yes, more cross-bracing is something I'm also considering. I'm thinking now I should be adding cross-planks at every post which is every 2-3 feet. 

It's just that I know that at some point there will be enough cross support and I wouldn't like to increase the cost by adding something unnecessary. Does your container have no cross-bracing at all? Meaning: nothing at the length of 8 ft?

It looks very nice by the way. Cool idea with the protected train shed.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

riderdan said:


> It's a _lot_ of dirt--probably more than you think. 8x32x2 is 500 cubic feet of dirt, or about a yard and a half. Think a dump truck load, or 500 bags of topsoil from the garden center.


I did the math just before posting. And yes, it is a scary amount of dirt. My calculations show a result very close to yours. And the only access to the garden is through my flat. Means: wheelbarrows. Hundreds of wheelbarrows. A completely crazy idea...


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

kormsen said:


> when i would build something like that, i would place the posts/stakes on the outside.
> as your plan shows it, all that earth that is pressing against the boards is helt back only by the nails or screws, that hold them in place.
> and the wooden connectors in the earth i would replace with steelbars, (threaded on the ends) that would go through holes in the posts, to be helt by screwed on nuts.


Pretty obvious the posts should be on the outside, right? The only problem is it will not look as good...

I was thinking steel-bars, too. Will see what I can find at the store and what the cost would be...


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

The struck (meaning level with the top) volume of a container that is 2'x8'x32' is 512 cubic feet, or 18.96 cubic yards, NOT the "yard and a half" suggested above. Round that to 20 cubic yards to allow for compaction of the loose delivered material, and remember that volume does not allow for any raised areas (meaning hills). A (sort of standard) 10 wheel dump truck will hold about 10 cubic yards, subject to weight and access limitations.

My layout is mostly elevated around 2 to 2 1/2 feet, with hills ranging up well over 4 feet. I use keystone cement blocks for containment where I want a wall, and just let the dirt come to the natural ground level in other places. The keystone blocks also provide a nice wide stable place for putting tools, rolling stock, and for just sitting and looking at the layout. I have been gathering the left over dirt from construction projects for over 20 years, and am lucky to have an acre to store the material and a small Kubota loader to move it.

Another concern: If you make the layout a fixed width of 8 feet, you will always be limited to a track radius of well less than 4 feet. That puts a severe limit on what trains you can run. One big advantage of using the keystone blocks is that I can easily move them or make them higher or lower as I develop or change the layout.

Happy RRing,

Jerry


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Rather than a wood frame I used concrete wall blocks from H.D. (also available at Lowe's) to raise my site 2 1/2'. The block comes in various colors and front finishes, but has a lip that locks in behind the lower courses. It has gone through 3 monsoon seasons without any issues. The block is cut so you can build curves in without needing to cut the concrete.75x40 site took 14 loads of dirt from 5 ton dump truck. After it was put in the first good rain dropped the level almost 3" due to compaction.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

MMW

Since you live in Poland, what type of trains are you planning to collect and run, European or North American?

I strongly support an earlier suggestion that if at all possible increase the diameter of your curves to 10 feet, a little over 3m. Much of the European meter gauge (LGB) looks fine on R3 LGB curves, but the longer RhB passenger cars will enjoy the wider curves. 

My first layout had LGB R3 as the maximum curve. When I built my present layout I moved up to 10' diameter. I now wish I had gone larger. If I ever do another one, I'll probably use LGB R5 (15' d) or larger.

Sorry to be using feet instead of meters.

My present layout is about half above ground and half at ground level. There is a slight slope where I built it.



















The wall at its highest point is about 10" (25cm) high. The timbers are pressure treated 4x4s and have been out since the layout was built in 1994.

Chuck


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*Small details*



> Does your container have no cross-bracing at all? Meaning: nothing at the length of 8 ft?


The total size of my shed is 4 ft by 8 ft, so I didn't consider center-bracing. That was a mistake, although not a killer. Adding one or two wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Here's a builder's shot of the frame in progress:










Yes, I just tossed it over my shoulder and marched it out to the backyard.










The center posts are 4x4 by 2 ft. cedar posts. I merely dug holes one foot-deep and placed the frame in, leveled the whole thing, and filled in the holes with topsoil. No concrete, etc. Not likely anyone's going to try to yank it out.

Shown here, the upper planks have not yet been installed, to allow placing the Lexan sides down to the six inch point. The upper planks were then put in place and the "sandwich" was bolted in place. Again, "Not likely anyone's going to try to yank it out." Admittedly, the upper planks are 1/8 inch outside the lower level, but no one has ever noticed.

On advice of the friendly lady at the local Lexan dealer, I used 1/8 inch "sign grade" Lexan which is quaranteed UV protected for ten years, and something close to.....bulletproof. FYI - not available in 8x32'.

JackM


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

JerryB said:


> The struck (meaning level with the top) volume of a container that is 2'x8'x32' is 512 cubic feet, or 18.96 cubic yards, NOT the "yard and a half" suggested above.
> Jerry


Yeah, going back over my math I noticed (after you pointed it out) that I dropped a decimal point. 

My layout is ~16 x 50 x 1 foot deep. It has taken a *lot* of dirt to fill it--several large dump truck loads... and it's still not up to the brim. I have a little more track to lay, so about half of the layout is still intentionally three inches below the top of the wood. Luckily there's a 6 foot gate in the fence around my back yard, so moving the dirt in isn't too hard. Almost 19 cubic yards by hand sounds... daunting.

Do keep in mind, as an earlier poster noted, that settling will be an issue. I tamped, flooded, and re-tamped my raised bed once a week for a month before I poured the concrete. I hasn't settled much since then, but it definitely settled several inches during that process.

Keep us posted on your progress


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*Yet another afterthought*

I was able to hide the corner posts simply by using three six-inch long lag bolts ( 4 inch post plus one inch plank leaves one inch for the nut - more or less ) staggered on each side.

You shoulda seen my workbench in the last place.

JackM

What my construction lacks in finesse it makes up for in bombproof.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

chuck n said:


> Since you live in Poland, what type of trains are you planning to collect and run, European or North American?
> 
> I strongly support an earlier suggestion that if at all possible increase the diameter of your curves to 10 feet, a little over 3m.


Funny, you're asking. I don't have a preference about the type of trains. I like them all. And I just want my 'miniature world' to look nice. So I wouldn't mind a Shinkansen and a Mogul on parallel tracks. I know that this is not what most of you do 

I'd love to have a larger curve but my garden is small. And I have to live with what I have. So my layout will be a compact one. Unfortunately...


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

JackM said:


> Yes, I just tossed it over my shoulder and marched it out to the backyard


Thank you for the photos, Jack. Very useful.

I can see that you're using nut/bolt combination instead of traditional (at least in Poland) wood screws. Was there a reason you did that?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

MMW 

That is what I want to hear. Over the years I started with LGB European trains. Back in 1980 that was all there was. They then started making NA trains, I liked those too. I have three different scales and trains that represent two continents.

My first garden railroad was on a slope. I dug out a terrace for the lower level. That was a loop with LGB R2. On that loop I ran LGB Colorado narrow gauge. The upper level was more open and I used R3 curves. On that one I usually ran LGB German and Swiss narrow gauge trains (LGB). The two levels were connected with a cog line, aka THE TRANS ATLANTIC EXPRESS.

I don't run my European trains as much as in the past, but I still enjoy them.

Chuck

Here are some pictures of my first layout.

Colorado on the lower loop, rack heading up to the right side of the picture.










European upper and occasionally lower.










Rack connecting the loops.










Chuck

Poland is a beautiful country. Many years ago I was there for work, geology. Warsaw, Kraków, Zakopane, and a few other places. 

Welcome to MLS.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I noticed from looking through your blog that you are in Poland. You might have trouble getting materials common in the US.

American Topsoil: serving Kansas & Missouri
Question: How much does topsoil weigh? Answer: One cubic yard of topsoil generally weighs about one ton (2000 pounds). Topsoil's weight can vary greatly due to moisture content. In the dryness of the summer, the weight of a cubic yard of soil can drop down to around 1700 pounds, while in the spring when soil is damper, one cubic yard may weigh well over one ton.

18.96 Cubic Yards will weigh 32,300 lbs (dry) or 38,000 lbs w/moisture content. That’s a lot of work, really a lot of work!

Posts; The posts definitely 4x4, need to be on the outside and in cement; a minimum of 2 feet deep, 2.5 feet even better. Deeper the post the more it will withstand the force pushing against it. Think of a retaining wall as the model for what you’re building; post or bracing is always on the outside. I would double post at the corners with a galvanized steel corner plates to tie the boards together. Post in 2’ of concrete on the outside may not seem terribly important for your project but think of it as insurance for your project having the best chance longest life with the fewest problems in the future.

Side Walls; 2x6 or 2x8 (2x6 being better.) Pressure Treated because it will be in constant contact with dirt and moisture. I’m in Northern California; we have two types of PT lumber; Green above ground, contacting the ground or in moisture contact, where the boards can dry out; Black for in ground. Your build would use Black PT for posts and Green for side boards. 

In your drawing the seams of the side boards aligned. There should be no continuous seams; seams should alternate. The model how bricks are laid. This goes back to antiquity. 

Fill material; This is a picture of my wife’s raised vegetable garden. Those are livestock troughs for water. Fill half with empty gallon plastic bottles then dirt. Holes drilled in bottom for drainage. We had no differences in growing experience. But it leads to a more basic question.











If I might ask, why do you need 2’ of dirt for your trains? I don’t think anyone will notice whether 2” or 2’ of dirt. If you’re going to grow scale mini trees or shrubs(?) maybe a few inches (4”- 6”), still 2‘ ? Other suggestions are below.

Alternative Materials,
As other’s examples above, the complete structure built from 4x4 or 6x6 landscaping timbers Brick pattern lay with pegs, inset long bolts or lag screws, or inset threaded rods and bolts connecting them. Interlocking ends as pictured above.

Posts; 
-	Steel galvanized fence posts 2”-2.5” diameter. These could be pounded in 24” or put in cemented – cement being best; depending on your soild. Heavy clay pounded in, sandy or dirt cement.
-	4” dia Schedule 40 (thick wall) PVC pipe in concrete 2’ deep. 

Given they’re each round bolt (through bolt or bolt type pipe clamp) a vertical 2x6 on the back to tie the side boards to. 

Walls; galvanized steel corrugated sheeting or, Corrugated fiberglass sheet. Corrugated material will provide the greatest strength vs thickness. Install the sheeting with the corrugated rib parallel to the ground. Either will last 15-20 years. If it does deteriorated you can add a sheet between posts on the outside to patch. OR, you could clear away the dirt from the inside put the patch sheet on the inside – depends on your aesthetics. Either can be painted.



























How much dirt do you really need? It seems appearance is your main concern. Here’s one way to reduce the amount of dirt. Install a raised floor with dirt on top. 
1.	Corrugated Fiberglass sheet for a raised floor then 4-6” of dirt. Corrugated fiberglass is used here, among other things, for patio coverings. It comes in various thicknesses. Double layer it if you like it for added strength.
2.	Build a grid of precast concrete piers 2’x2’ OC, put a couple of inches of compacted gravel under each pier for drainage. Install a grid of beams and stringers (cross pieces) using 2x6s on top of the piers. Use joist hangers to attach stringer between 2x6 beams. 
3.	Drills small holes for drainage throughout the fiberglass sheets. Add landscaping plastic sheet (don’t forget to cut holes it) or landscape cloth (cloth drains so no need to make holes). Height of platform to suit. A fraction of the dirt and weight. 
4.	I’d still install the posts outside and the brick lay pattern side boards but structurally you would not need them on them outside.

If you want a scale or mini forest of trees you could build a box in between 1 or more grid squares for the tree roots and still have the fiberglass floor everywhere else. Given the grid of beams and girders the box would not affect the strength. The mini shrubs or ground cover doesn’t need very little dirt depth to thrive. 

With the fiberglass floor on piers 2’x2’ grid will be pretty darn strong floor you could probably walk on although crawling on top of the layout would definitely be better Crawling would distribute your weight. You could also use boards laid side to side for temporary cat walks for working on the layout. You could also mark the grid location on the top of the walls and they walk on the layout only on top of the beams and stringers – like you would in an attic to keep from falling through thee ceiling. 

If you use 2x’s for the side walls there is an easy way to make a seats or flat top board surrounding the entire layout. Using a 14-16” long 2x6 or 2x8 attach a 2x2 along one side flush with the 2x6/2x8 edge. Attach a 2x6 6-8” long vertically (screws from the top) on the same side as the 2x2 perpendicular to the 2x2 using a 2x6 on edge parallel and between the 2x2 and vertical piece for sizing the space between. Turn it over and set the finished piece atop the side board – the 2x2 goes on the inside. Now you have a seat. You can make it in longer lengths or along the entire top of the layout. This also makes working on the layout more comfortable having a seat rather than knelling. 
Gross graphic using text characters:
-----
. ||

Here's a linkto Google Images for Raised Gardens;
https://www.google.com/search?q=raised+garden+beds&biw=1455&bih=715&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDcQsARqFQoTCOP44rH-rscCFVCiiAodCHoB-Q&dpr=1.1#imgrc=_

Ok, that’s way more than I thought it would take to add a couple of things to the discussion but sometimes it just keeps going and going and going.

Best of luck with your project.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

*bolts vs. screws*



> I can see that you're using nut/bolt combination instead of traditional (at least in Poland) wood screws. Was there a reason you did that?


Just looking for maximum strength.

Also, security is a concern with my corner location. Although I am fortunate to live in a very low crime, semi-rural area, there is enough traffic on the side-street to the sub-division behind me. People around me don't have fences and I have almost an acre, so I figure I shouldn't press my luck. I don't envision someone walking up in the middle of the night, yanking the boards out, but I figured the lag bolts, etc., would make my yard pretty strudy. (And the Lexan, motion-activated lights, cameras & DVR, etc. can't hurt.)

But I'm not an engineer, so there's a lot of guesswork in anything I build.

Keep us posted on what you build. There's always a "next time".

JackM


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

JackM said:


> There's always a "next time".
> JackM


Yes, that's so true...


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> Ok, that’s way more than I thought it would take to add a couple of things to the discussion but sometimes it just keeps going and going and going.


Thank you very much for your detailed answer. The raised floor idea is very interesting. I have to seriously consider it.

The more I read, the more I think I should not be using soil at all. Seems soil is just a problem: it holds water, it compacts with time, it extends when frozen... 

Perhaps I should be using just stones as a filler. They seem to weight the same as soil, they "drain themselves", they don't compact or extend. They're just much more pain in case the entire structure breaks...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Before we decided to go with all dirt, an idea I was exploring was to do an outdoor version of the old "hard shell" method used on indoor layouts. Briefly, it would have involved:

- wood frame (but with access hatches on the sides)
- grid framing on top
- plywood roadbed, 2 layers
- risers to support mountains / scenery / planter areas
- platforms for building areas
- wire mesh over everything
- coarse fabric & mortar over that
- more carefully trowelled top coat for roadbed over that
- drained "bowls" for planter areas

Maybe crazy, and I didn't do it. But, just putting it out there.

BTW, if you have a source of cheap old rr ties, I'd consider using that for your perimeter.

Cliff


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

I had thought about recommending used ties, too, but then I remembered that the OP is in Poland. Concrete ties (sleepers) have been the norm in Europe for years. They would probably have to be imported from over here.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Roger that Chuck.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Jut to go a little more crazy, a few more ideas;




























Vinyl Fence material: Here in Northern CA this would be a great solution being both strong, cheap and easily customized or adapted to purpose. And impervious to just about everything except fire - it does melt.









Artifical (fake) stone/rock:









If you use brick, artificial stone or any block building/landscape products you can use construction adhesive applied with a caulk gun to secure it. This is a good idea even if the blocks are interlocking to prevent the blocks shifting if something collides with the wall, which if it were mine project would me being generally clumsy.

Don't forget to allow for drainage under the side walls by digging a shallow trench (a little wider then your side wall material) filled with 3-4" of packed gravel or crushed stone. Without this the bare dirt will become saturated and the wall may sag in places over time. This is a good practice under any wall material since water and structures/materials are generally not good friends in most circumstances. Over built or engineered is always better than under engineered or poorly constructed.

Also remember, the material itself might not be beautiful, but there is always paint; concrete blocks, vinyl, wood, or fiberglass or galvanized steel sheet, etc. Maybe paint the walls white and get the neighborhood little kids to paint flowers on it. I really like little kid's art. That's me.


Seat I tried to describe;


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

MyMiniatureWorlds said:


> Thank you very much for your detailed answer. The raised floor idea is very interesting. I have to seriously consider it.


I thought about that too, but decided against it. My concern was that I need access to the middle of the layout and building a raised platform that would hold my weight seemed problematic. Also, since I wanted real plants, I was concerned about the weight of 6" of dirt and rot from undrained water. It sometimes rains a lot here in Kansas and I'm not sure how well a large area like that would drain.

Just more to think about.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

I used half round treated timber for my retaining wall. Posts on the outside as suggested previously.










The timber is about 160mm wide from memory (say 7"), so the wall is just under half a meter tall with the posts the same deep in concrete.

I just dug a hole to get my dirt..

Cheers
Neil


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

I would agree with Jerry on the amount of fill material that you need. One other idea to keep you costs down would be to fill the container area or castle block boundary area with ABC or rip rap or some sort of stone. In Glendale, AZ, top soil is about $32/yard, but ABC sells for around $16 or you can get crushed concrete filler for $9/yard. It makes it more stable (doesn't settle as much), porous so the rain water will flow through quickly, doesn't attract as many weeds and you can still add top soil in specific areas for plants. Can't see what the constraints are (yard size), but if you can get a small Bobcat in, you could get the material to the back yard quicker. I'm building a similar one, but it has all been wheel barrow and bucket work....my poor back. Good luck, Ed


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## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the WAGRS members in Salina, KS used old tires as fill material that seems to work very well. His name is Richard Nelson and his railway was featured in Garden Railways April 2015. Here is a link to the article 
http://grw.trains.com/how-to/videos/2015/02/visit-the-north-ohio-central-garden-railroad


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## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the WAGRS members in Salina, KS used old tires as fill material that seems to work very well. His name is Richard Nelson and his railway was featured in Garden Railways April 2015. Here is a link to the article 
http://grw.trains.com/how-to/videos/2015/02/visit-the-north-ohio-central-garden-railroad


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

The first module is ready. I followed the original idea with more cross support, with some nuts/bolts and I also used wood glue. It's just one of the four modules and it's incredibly heavy already. It also feels sturdy - if that does not hold the filling, I don't know what will... I'm exhausted...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice carpentry. I sure like your modular approach.

But before you fill it, I'd strongly recommend taking one extra step against your planking blowing out. Since you chose to put your posts are on the inside, I think your design might be vulnerable to this. 

Basically, I think you need exterior backing boards at each post. 2x4's, through-bolted all the way back through the planking and 4x4's. 5" lag bolts, such as are used in deck building, could be used. You put them in with a drill. That way, the screws used in the planking do not see all the internal pressure due to the rain-drenched soil. Instead of two or three screw heads trying to hold the joint, you have the entire surface of the 2x4 holding it.

Cliff


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

Why do you insist on thinking you have to fill a big box with earth, in order to have a raised railroad ?
Ken Brunt, over on LSC is building a raised railroad, and has a good approach, using less wood than you will use, and ends up with a raised railroad that allows for a great looking railroad, without filling a big box with earth.

Engineering wise, your big box is designed to fail. Just go out and look at retaining walls if there are any near you.....they demand a well engineered design if there is any hope for it lasting any great length of time. 

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I would rather you learn the facts, before you make a big blunder, no-matter what other "Well meaning" people have told you an this forum so far.

There is another person, out on the West Coast, in Port Orford, who has built a terrific raised railroad that stands up VERY well to the weather. Richard Smith is his name....again there are pictures and lessons on his methods at LSC....but you guys never go over there.....too bad....

Fred Mills


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

CliffyJ said:


> Nice carpentry. I sure like your modular approach.


Thank you 



CliffyJ said:


> Basically, I think you need exterior backing boards at each post. 2x4's, through-bolted all the way back through the planking and 4x4's. 5" lag bolts, such as are used in deck building, could be used. You put them in with a drill. That way, the screws used in the planking do not see all the internal pressure due to the rain-drenched soil. Instead of two or three screw heads trying to hold the joint, you have the entire surface of the 2x4 holding it.


I see what you mean and your idea is very good. However, I believe it might not be needed. I do have some concrete blocks left from the previous work in the garden. Those are 4ft long. I'm going to place them inside the posts and that will create a concrete box inside a wooden box. This should limit the pressure on the external planks considerably.

And I'm not filling it with soil. I'm going for stones. Big ones at the bottom, smaller in the middle and fine grit at the top. That way I should get rather constant conditions. The pressure on the box will be the same no matter if it's raining or not and no matter what the temperature is. 

And if I start seeing any bad symptoms, I will take the stones out and fix it


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Fr.Fred said:


> s at LSC....but you guys never go over there.....too bad....
> 
> Fred Mills


If you are so **** bent on us going over to LSC, why don't you provide links to these threads you think are so great. As for this fellows design failing, you should explain the problems, not just say it won't work.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Fr.Fred said:


> Why do you insist on thinking you have to fill a big box with earth, in order to have a raised railroad ?
> Fred Mills


For one: I do not want to have a dark, moist area full of weed and bugs, impossible to maintain under my layout.



Fr.Fred said:


> Ken Brunt, over on LSC is building a raised railroad, and has a good approach, using less wood than you will use, and ends up with a raised railroad that allows for a great looking railroad, without filling a big box with earth.


His work looks great, I agree. I wouldn't say he's using less wood. Whatever I put at the sides, he has to put on the top. But it's comparable, I guess. 

His woodwork is however much more complicated. The posts, the elevated frame, the raised floor and then some extra walls to hold the small amount of dirt. I'm not sure I could do that. Building a rigid rectangular prism seems so much easier...



Fr.Fred said:


> Engineering wise, your big box is designed to fail. Just go out and look at retaining walls if there are any near you.....they demand a well engineered design if there is any hope for it lasting any great length of time.


Why do you think it will fail? Every single wooden raised garden bed I saw on the internet is less solid than mine. There are companies that actually sell such boxes and their products seem to have less extra support compared to mine. They even make them taller than mine!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

MMW

Make sure you have adiquate drainage holes out of the frame. Gravel filling will help, but the fill dirt on top will gradually filter down.

Drainage is crucial to a successful frame such as you are planning.

Chuck


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

chuck n said:


> Make sure you have adiquate drainage holes out of the frame. Gravel filling will help, but the fill dirt on top will gradually filter down.
> Chuck


I'm (currently ) planning to have no dirt at all. Big stones, medium stones, then some agrofabric (to prevent filtering down) and some very fine stones. And soil only in pots or in "soil ponds", always protected by fabric from going down...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi again MMW, thanks for taking all our comments with humor and good grace! 

I didn't know (or remember) you were using rocks to fill, so yes, that's clearly better than dirt. 

Like Chuck said though, drainage planning is key. You can also drill some holes later, if need be. You should also plan your ground-level drain lines, to control how normal run-off goes around or through your modules. 

Seems like a lot of stone to use, to fill the void. I agree, for lots of reasons, it's best to fill it. Like, critters. And, a support means for the surface soil. (??)

However, some folks use mothballs for critter prevention. And, if you went with a concrete or other means of "skin" for the layout, the advantages of not filling would include:


- Easily-added / maintained wiring & tubing
- Easily-maintained or altered carpentry
- Option of pop-up access holes

Best hopes for whatever you do, and please keep us posted!

Cliff


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

MMW,

As Kormsen stated above, it would serve you well to put your posts on the outside of the wall. This means the planks you show are trying to push through the posts in stead of the fasteners holding back tons of dirt. Depending on your location (I am not familiar with the frost line there) I would recommend no less than 2 feet below grade for your posts, and set the posts in pea gravel in lieu of concrete - it allows the post to dry as ground water varies in height.

Either way, I would recommend stainless steel fasteners for your joining, and be sure to stagger all the joints of your horizontal planks. Lining the joints up (except at corners) generates a weak spot in the wall which will be the first place the wall may fail. Placing the posts on the exterior will also allow for smaller fasteners to be used.

A tuppence from a mechanical designer.

Happy RRing.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

I've spent the last three afternoons digging... Managed to dig 8ft x 12ft x 8in hole. The soil was dry and extremely dense. It WAS difficult. I'm not used to physical work...










I'm having second thoughts about using wood. Perhaps I should go for concrete right away? I just saw those at the store today and bought four pieces to take a closer look...










They're heavy as h**l. 80 pounds each. They would definitely support dirt or stones or whatever easily. And they're forever - weather wouldn't touch them...

But my wife said 'no'. She said they were ugly and that wood was the only option for her... So no 'second thoughts' any more  
We'll go back to concrete when the wood proves inappropriate.

I'm getting the first 6 tons of stones on Monday. Will transport them using wheelbarrow to my garden. I wonder if that can be done in one day...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Those are neat blocks! Never seen them before. You'll be able to curve your walls, which is a great plus. And no worries about wood splitting / rotting / whatever.

I understand about the aesthetic issue though, and keeping the Chief happy! I'd consider though bonding-on vertical wood slats for that, maybe using some planking from an old barn...


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

MyMiniatureWorlds

I hope you see my post in time to cancel delivery of the stone. Yes, I’ll explain.

Let me see if I correctly understand your situation. You want a train layout that; 
1.	Looks reasonably real; i.e., track set in ballast, etc.
2.	Elevated 2' above ground so you don’t have to bend or crawl

You’re wife wants;
1.	If it has to be, then something pleasing to look at, wood will do. 
2.	She does not care what is behind the wood sides.

The solution is to build a raised layout on 4x4 posts 2' tall and attach wood as a facing to the two exposed sides that your wife will see. They have a flat deck with wood strips sides that keeps the ballast in place. Track is fixed to the deck and ballast added. In one layout you can see that moss has grown over the ballast. You will be able to walk on the deck if needed. 

A deck on posts approach will enable you to get under the layout and will be invaluable to install wiring and in the future for repairs, modifications, and upgrades. Please, please consider what it would be like doing the same type of things, wiring, etc., with a solid filled box. You are buying tons and tons of dirt, or rock, more rocks and gravel to fill a box. A deck on posts will allow water to naturally flow under it and not disrupt the property drainage. 

The only thing you really want is a deck 2' above ground for your layout. So build that, save all the time and use the time to run and enjoy your trains. Put wood siding on the layout to please your wife. Because the sides will not have to be structural you will have a lot more options to please your wife – big dividends now and in the future.

There are many examples with photos, instructions and videos describing building a deck on posts, cross member and deck attached on top. The deck is wood (plywood or boards) covered in moisture barrier, torched down roofing , or a deck material that is impervious to water, plastic, aluminum, etc. In the videos along the edge of the deck is strip wood or an edging that keep the gravel ballast on the deck. The track is attached to the deck and ballast added to fill in.

Below are three videos of 3 different layouts built on posts with ballast, buildings, greenery, etc. These are only to show examples of how you can have a fully ballasted track work on a layout on posts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SebrHkzEaew&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWUdM89k1Cs&feature=youtu.be​
The last is a very large layout that is in a repurposed boat warehouse. 






You have no need or reason to fill a box with dirt or rock to elevate your layout 2' above ground. Your wife only cares about the outside so she doesn’t care what’s beyond the exterior wood appearance. 

Looking at your site photo, if you build a solid structure 2x8x32’ you will almost never, without a great deal of work and disruption be able to get inside it to fix problems. They’ll be exacerbated with access to only two side. Majority of your problems will be on those two sides you don't have access to. That’s just the way things work out. 

Water; you are building one or more of either a water tub, water diversion walls and maybe a dam depending on your land’s topography . Depending on the amount of rain and or snow and their severity water will not drain as fast as it builds up. IF you have not planned for water and very worst case possibilities you will wish you had. 

I’m sorry you have obviously put a lot of work into digging and building your first box. But better to learn early than to learn after it’s built and your regrets become a mountain. 

I can testify, as I’m sure many others can, to the fact that when you think you know what you are doing and have it all figured out but lack real world knowledge and experience you will truck it up, have to continually fix it and fix the secondary (and more) problems it causes you and very likely others (your neighbors) and you will eventually tear it down and build and alternative one you should have or move and leave it for the next owner to forever curse you. 

Ok, that’s my rant and rave, and a last attempt to guide you as we all want your build and train experience to be as enjoyable as possible.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Thank you for the answer Chris.

I've watched the videos you linked and:

The first two videos are exactly what I do not want. It's what I would call 'railtrack on sticks'. It's like the train is going on an infinite bridge. Is that supposed to look realistic? I know many people do this kind of layout but I don't like it at all.

The third video is more interesting. And it shows an indoor part which is basically a big table and an outdoor part which consists of huge buckets full of stones connected by 'bridge tables'. Check the video at 11:30. See how the 'bridge part' is uninteresting and the 'bucket full of stones part' suddenly gets all the nice look? That's exactly why I hesitate to go for a 'table solution'. You can't plant anything there, you can't make a pond, you can't... well, actually anything deeper that 2 inches is prohibited.

But if I was doing it indoors, I would definitely go for a table... But then I would not be considering a pond 

I'm not sure why I should be so much worried about the maintenance. Everything will be on the surface except for the cabling. And the cabling will go into top layer layer of stones which will be a fine gravel. This should not be a problem at all. 

I'm not going to maintain the inside of my box. There will be nothing interesting there...

I'm concerned about the wood on the sides I won't have access to. But I'm just as concerned about it on the other sides, too. Actually if it starts breaking on any of the sides, it's already a disaster...



> and you will eventually tear it down and build an alternative one


Probably  I'm aware this one will not last forever... I'm hoping for 5-7 years...


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

All the best for your layout project. I'm sure you will get tremendous enjoyment from it. I do from my layout.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

MMW,

Ok, I think this is exactly the kind of elevated layout you want. Longtime MLS member Paul Burch, built this layout in Gig Harbor, WA. It is a combination of concrete blocks and wood sides similar to what you are doing. It is off the ground by about three feet and entirely elevated. There is a complete drainage system in the layout and actually plumbed in. He has snow and lots of rain in the winter, very cold temperatures and hot temperatures in the summer. This is probably one of the finest elevated railroads in the USA and probably the world considering it is a private layout.
























































As you can see, it is quite a layout. Massive amount of engineering and design went into this build!


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Fantastic! That's exactly what I want. Just a bit smaller


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

a late thought on your layout, consider laying in some perforated drainage piping in several areas at the bottom with exit holes around the perimeter then filling in with about 1 foot of stone then lay some landscaping fabric on top of the stone then fill the rest with dirt it will give you amble soil to grow your plants while providing good drainage to prevent water build up within the enclosure


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Three weeks later...










It's going slow as you can see. But it just might have been the most difficult part, so maybe I'll be able to speed up.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

That looks like a good start. 

I think when you are done your wife will be content with the appearance. If necessary, put in a few miniature buildings and the cuteness factor will override her aesthetic sense (or at least I'm pretty sure that's what happened in my case)

What did you decide to do about filling it?


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

riderdan said:


> That looks like a good start.
> 
> I think when you are done your wife will be content with the appearance. If necessary, put in a few miniature buildings and the cuteness factor will override her aesthetic sense (or at least I'm pretty sure that's what happened in my case)
> 
> What did you decide to do about filling it?


Thanx!

I'm filling it with stones only. I predict around 26 tons in total. Means: around 3 weeks of 'riding' a wheelbarrow. But I'm really getting used to the physical work and it feels good!!!

My wife starts liking it, too. She even bought me the first building:










It's 'almost' G scale 

And I've finally found the time to describe the experience on my blog, too. Here's the September summary: http://my-miniature-worlds.blogspot.com/2015/09/garden-works-part-7-elevated-layout.html

Now... back to work!


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Another month has passed and the progress is definitely there. The layout frame is ready:










Unfortunately it's autumn all the way here which means: short, cold and rainy days. I won't be able to finish it (meaning: fill the frame with stones) this year. So I guess it will have to wait till spring...

Full update here: http://my-miniature-worlds.blogspot.com/2015/10/garden-works-part-8-elevated-layout.html


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Looking good.

You can spend the winter like I do, working on "indoor" projects: buildings, adding figures to passenger cars, etc. Then when you take all those winter projects out in the spring (after you're adventure with gravel), you'll feel like you made incredible progress (since they all go out at once there's a big change)


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

Hello again!

It's spring now so...the progress is there, too! I'm now moving the stones for my elevated layout. Seems like I'm halfway there.










More info on my blog: http://my-miniature-worlds.blogspot.com/2016/05/garden-works-part-9-more-stones-more.html


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

How many wheelbarrows-full is that? I can't imagine hauling all that by "hand."

Great progress. Keep us posted on how it's going.


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

riderdan said:


> How many wheelbarrows-full is that?


Around 100. Two weeks of "after work leisure".

I actually found it less tiring to use metal buckets. So I would fill 3 buckets with stones and then put them (the filled buckets) in the wheelbarrow. It's also easier to pour the stones into the frame with buckets than with the wheelbarrow itself...


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## MyMiniatureWorlds (May 3, 2015)

It's time to close the topic. I have managed to fill my elevated layout frame with 34 tons of stones. This is what it looks like today:










The effort was unbelievable. But I'm happy and proud of the result. I'm still afraid it won't last. And if any problems occur, I'm hiring a pro this time 

As always - more on my blog: http://my-miniature-worlds.blogspot.com/2016/06/garden-works-part-10-yes-its-again.html


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