# Revolution???



## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

What's up with Aristo and their seeming lack of stock on .... everything?

All initial reports were pretty favorable on the Revolution control system, but they seem to be having in stock issues with them as well. Any idea as to if/when they will ever get them back in stock? 

Any idea as to wether Aristo will manage to stay in business??? I guess that's really the question....


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By Dave F on 04 Oct 2012 06:43 AM 
What's up with Aristo and their seeming lack of stock on .... everything?

All initial reports were pretty favorable on the Revolution control system, but they seem to be having in stock issues with them as well. Any idea as to if/when they will ever get them back in stock? 

Any idea as to wether Aristo will manage to stay in business??? I guess that's really the question.... 

Aristocraft has made a lot of promises this year and seems to have not delivered on any of them. The revo was supposed to be out months ago but all we got was excuses.
They say maybe this month but I wouldn't hold your breath, They also promised track this month as well but now the container is delayed till mid November so 'THEY' say.
Its very hard to believe anything Aristocrat says, always has been come to think of it.
As far as going out of business, Reports have said they are selling stock at low prices just to make payroll. Who knows!!!!!!!!!!! Me personally have stopped buying and dont recommend there stuff any more
because of all the problems they have and refused to address. I had to laugh at there latest sale, "We stand behind what we sell" Its one thing to make a poor product it's another to try to fix it
Which they haven't been able to do with most of there stuff. My suggestion is to stay away from the REVO because it will most likely be like the 75 mhz system they sold then discontinued and everyone was stuck 
with them with no support. just mt my 2 cents.

Jethro


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, this is not a new development. We are rapidly approaching one year since Aristo had any inventory of REVO controllers to order. Sellers have been living off residual inventory. There are still a few receivers to be had around, but no controllers for a while already. There are numerous stories about supplier issues as an explanation of the lack of controller /transmitter production. 

Jonathan 
www.rctrains.com


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Sorry Dave, you may have longer to wait. 

I was working with a couple of long term G-scalers here in northern Arizona and they have both indicated it was going to be a wait and see situation. I didn't want to wait for Aristo to bring their manufacturing of the Revolution equipment back to the United States and went to Airwire. In my circumstances, this isn't all bad because I just starting to convert from track power to battery operation. I have several other friends that have investered extensively in the Revolution control systems and really can't do anything but wait. Good luck. Ed


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

To my mind this is one of the big advantages of DCC. Because it's a standard platform, products from various manufacturers will work. When QSI was delayed forever, there were other options for sound and motor decoders, esu, massoth, zimo; or you could aways get a motor decoder and a phoenix card. If you run battery, you can use either the QSI with GWIre or the airwire boards. It's not perfect, but you don't get stuck in the situation of waiting for one manufacturer. A single source like Aristo is always going to be vulnerable to shortages.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mike, in the battery R/C environment, even the Airwire and QSI stuff is still largely proprietary. Yeah, you can _run_ a G-wire/QSI loco with an Airwire throttle, but you can't effectively _program_ it (and vice versa with the NCE controller and Airwire boards). No matter the system, the link between transmitter and receiver is pretty much proprietary--different frequencies, communications protocols, etc. When--and it's demonstratively a matter of "when"--supply is interrupted of one or more of those components, you're stuck standing at the dock waiting for the boat to come in. 

The solution is simply not to put all your eggs in one basket. With traditional DCC, you have only one base station receiver which outputs a universal signal to compatible decoders, so that path is pretty immune to supply issues. Only the decoder is subject, and as you point out, there are plenty of alternatives. With battery R/C, you've got multiple receivers, so the Tx/Rx path isn't stable at all should there be a shortage. I suggest to people that if they're looking to add a second transmitter to their operation, they may want to consider buying "the other guy's" stuff. That way if supply of one is interrupted, they have a secondary path already in place. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Oct 2012 11:28 AM 
Mike, in the battery R/C environment, even the Airwire and QSI stuff is still largely proprietary. Yeah, you can _run_ a G-wire/QSI loco with an Airwire throttle, but you can't effectively _program_ it (and vice versa with the NCE controller and Airwire boards). No matter the system, the link between transmitter and receiver is pretty much proprietary--different frequencies, communications protocols, etc. When--and it's demonstratively a matter of "when"--supply is interrupted of one or more of those components, you're stuck standing at the dock waiting for the boat to come in. 

The solution is simply not to put all your eggs in one basket. With traditional DCC, you have only one base station receiver which outputs a universal signal to compatible decoders, so that path is pretty immune to supply issues. Only the decoder is subject, and as you point out, there are plenty of alternatives. With battery R/C, you've got multiple receivers, so the Tx/Rx path isn't stable at all should there be a shortage. I suggest to people that if they're looking to add a second transmitter to their operation, they may want to consider buying "the other guy's" stuff. That way if supply of one is interrupted, they have a secondary path already in place. 

Later, 

K


Kevin i think you are wrong about that. You can program any decoder that's receiving the signal from the throttle. Or if not, you can hook it up to your computer using JMRI and program it that way. You'd have to have some kind of equivalent to a track power connection established though. 

I was able to program qsi decoders using aan airwire throttle with no trouble at all. 


Otherwise, I think you and I are making the same point


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, and the QSI also has some programming setup ability with a magnet waved by the reed switch. 

Bottom line, if you have a single source for your decoder/receiver and a single source for your transmitter/throttle, then you are at the whims of one manufacturer. 

Airwire has several different throttles available, and NCE also makes a compatible throttle... likewise you can get a decoder/receiver for the Airwire system from both AirWire (CVP) and QSI. That helps a bit, and is a significant step over a single supplier. 

Of course neither is anywhere near DCC where you can mix and match to your heart's content... there are many manufacturers of the "command station" and entry level and advanced system. 

All except antique decoders will work on any DCC system. 

It's your choice and your "gamble" when you buy a proprietary system. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mike, the Airwire and QSI stuff is mostly compatible, but the devil is in the details. They speak the same language, but different dialects. Programming across platforms is hit or miss. It's been a while, but I was having enough issues trying to program the QSI with the Airwire that I switched to the NCE throttle instead. When I asked on the Airwire board how to do this, I got crickets. I also couldn't get my Airwire G2 to respond to programming commands from the NCE in either programming or service modes. (Airwire only programs in service mode.) Could have been operator error, but--again--others have had similar issues so I don't believe so. By that measure, the two systems are still proprietary in nature. For 100% compatibility, you need to use NCE's controller with the G-wire/QSI, and Airwire's controllers with their receivers. That's the bar I use when classifying systems as proprietary or open. (BTW, I'm still open for suggestions on programming QSI boards with Airwire throttles. I sent my NCE throttle back east with my dad so he can program and control his diesel, so I don't have that option available until I break down and buy a new NCE cab.) 

Greg, I don't think anyone is doubting the advantages of an open source architecture like DCC.. But when it comes to on-board battery R/C applications, the advantages of that open source are largely lost as they're simply not currently adaptable to that environment. Now, if Zimo(?) or Airwire come to market with a universal receiver that outputs a straight DCC output (Airwire's got one for small scales), then that will change to some degree. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are correct that there are some issues, but often we place way too much emphasis on programming, which for most people is a one time thing. I know that when reviewing products, you need to look at all facets, but many people set it and forget it. I even know a reviewer for GR magazine who really only wants bell and whistle, but insists on having the starting and stopping toots even with something as sophisticated as DCC or Airwire.









(They are in the latest QSI just for you Kevin, by the way) 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

True, but you _do_ have to set it before you can forget it. If the transmitter won't let you do that, you're kinda up the creek unless you're in love with factory defaults. (And what fun are they?) 

I even know a reviewer for GR magazine who really only wants bell and whistle, but insists on having the starting and stopping toots even with something as sophisticated as DCC or Airwire. 
Actually, something as sophisticated as DCC (especially QSI) should have the option of letting the user decide whether he wants automatic control of whistles or not. Heck, even the old Sierra systems give the user that option. That's one area where the previous QSI board was decidedly behind the times. Glad to see that remedied with the Titan. Besides--what's wrong with the system automatically blowing the forward/reverse whistles when you change direction? It automatically switches the lights for you.  

(And for the record, if you've ever heard my locos, you'd know I demand a lot more from my sound systems than just bells and whistles. That's why I gravitate towards Phoenix and QSI, and spend literally hours in the workshop and in the back yard fine-tuning the sounds. Now, I gotta work on the Bose Wave Tender for better bass response.) 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, the QSI is set up to allow you to have the automatic toots or not. I think your requests were heard as this new feature was added. 

Nothing wrong Kevin, just kinda funny, when you have a system that gives you wide control, to turn over your favorite sounds to automation... The playing of the whistle is historically the most "personal expression" an engineer has. 

I was hoping you were happy... 

Back to my point, the AirWire system with the additional compatible QSI and NCE parts goes a long way to giving people more choice than a system where there are no choices at all. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Greg, 
I can understand why Kevin likes auto toots for direction. 
The automatic directional toots are very realistically brief on the Phoenix. Much better than trying to do a very short two or three toots manually. 
So, 
1. Does the QSI do the same realistically short toots automatically? 
2. Can very short realistic toots be played manually on the QSI? 
3. If so, do they have dedicated functions for them?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05 Oct 2012 01:49 AM 
OK Greg, 
I can understand why Kevin likes auto toots for direction. 
The automatic directional toots are very realistically brief on the Phoenix. Much better than trying to do a very short two or three toots manually. 
So, 
1. Does the QSI do the same realistically short toots automatically? 
2. Can very short realistic toots be played manually on the QSI? 
3. If so, do they have dedicated functions for them? 

1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Not sure what you mean


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike. 
I ask because I have yet to hear a sound system that can play realistically short rapid toots unless they are automatic. 
Are you saying that QSI can do that manually with the same button that is used for manual control of the regular toots. 
If so, are those manual short toots on the QSI as rapid as those that are automatic on the Phoenix?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok. I can't answer that, i don't have a Phoenix sound card hooked up to compare


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, it's not a matter of turning over control, the auto toots are in addition to full manual control. Best of both worlds. I don't have to think about directional toots, but I can blow the whistle for bridges and to scare the dogs to my heart's content. (The one weakness of the Sierra set-up, it was "either-or") I like Phoenix's use of a dedicated grade crossing recording as well, as it captures nuances you don't get just by manually playing the "standard" whistle file in the grade crossing pattern. As I said, I'm a sound junkie. Have been from the early days of PFM sound systems. I'm really anxious to see what QSI's emulator software package can do in a steam environment. From what they describe of the diesel sound/throttle behavior, it could be VERY cool! 

Tony, the QSI, like Phoenix, in many of the sound files has a different recording for a "short" whistle vs. a "long" whistle. If you just tap the whistle button, you get the short blast, if you hold it down longer, you get the longer blast. On some sound files, it works great. On others, the whistles used for the "long" and "short" blasts aren't even from the same whistle! So you have to be careful when selecting your sound set if you want consistency. Both the QSI and Phoenix are capable of manually playing a series of short blasts in quick succession. The catch; the transmitter has to be able to send the signals fast enough to trigger them. The Airwire and NCE controllers are pretty good in this regard, though sometimes they miss a break and you get one short and a long, or just two shorts when you pressed the button three times. That's true with both QSI and Phoenix boards. The Revolution/Phoenix combination cannot access the "short" whistle sound. I don't know if that's a function of the Revolution transmitter not sending a quick-enough pulse to trigger the short whistle, or if it's a function of the Revolution using the auxiliary inputs as opposed to the DCC interface on the Phoenix. I suspect the former, but have not investigated. I just tailor my sound set choice to match the control system. If it's a sound set that's got a good "short" whistle that I like, then I'll use the Airwire. If it's one of those where the "short" recording sounds different enough from the long one, I'll use the Revolution so I don't hear the short version. 

And that's the long and short of it.  

Later, 

K


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 05 Oct 2012 10:57 AM 
Greg, it's not a matter of turning over control, the auto toots are in addition to full manual control. Best of both worlds. I don't have to think about directional toots, but I can blow the whistle for bridges and to scare the dogs to my heart's content. (The one weakness of the Sierra set-up, it was "either-or") I like Phoenix's use of a dedicated grade crossing recording as well, as it captures nuances you don't get just by manually playing the "standard" whistle file in the grade crossing pattern. As I said, I'm a sound junkie. Have been from the early days of PFM sound systems. I'm really anxious to see what QSI's emulator software package can do in a steam environment. From what they describe of the diesel sound/throttle behavior, it could be VERY cool! 

Tony, the QSI, like Phoenix, in many of the sound files has a different recording for a "short" whistle vs. a "long" whistle. If you just tap the whistle button, you get the short blast, if you hold it down longer, you get the longer blast. On some sound files, it works great. On others, the whistles used for the "long" and "short" blasts aren't even from the same whistle! So you have to be careful when selecting your sound set if you want consistency. Both the QSI and Phoenix are capable of manually playing a series of short blasts in quick succession. The catch; the transmitter has to be able to send the signals fast enough to trigger them. The Airwire and NCE controllers are pretty good in this regard, though sometimes they miss a break and you get one short and a long, or just two shorts when you pressed the button three times. That's true with both QSI and Phoenix boards. The Revolution/Phoenix combination cannot access the "short" whistle sound. I don't know if that's a function of the Revolution transmitter not sending a quick-enough pulse to trigger the short whistle, or if it's a function of the Revolution using the auxiliary inputs as opposed to the DCC interface on the Phoenix. I suspect the former, but have not investigated. I just tailor my sound set choice to match the control system. If it's a sound set that's got a good "short" whistle that I like, then I'll use the Airwire. If it's one of those where the "short" recording sounds different enough from the long one, I'll use the Revolution so I don't hear the short version. 

And that's the long and short of it.  

Later, 

K 
Kevin,

The one thing I really like about the Phoenix whistle sounds is the "alternate" whistle endings they have for SOME of their steamers. It gives that "long, baleful fading affect" that an experienced engineer might use to make the whistle "sing". Hard to describe, but I think you know what I mean.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it's also a great thing about the QSI, in fact there is a start, middle, and ending to the whistle, AND you can program the durations... 

Some of the whistles will also have the sound very different from a short toot, to a "long pull".... 

Sound systems have come a long way. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yep, it's also a great thing about the QSI, in fact there is a start, middle, and ending to the whistle, AND you can program the durations... 
Not sure what you mean about "program the durations." I know you can set the lengths for the programmed grade crossing, but you're not altering the length of the sound file, just programming how long the "middle" part is looped for the various segments of the pattern. That I've seen, there's no way to get in and alter the duration of the specific parts of any one sound file. Is that a new Titan feature? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

New feature... really did not mean to derail. Many new features. 

Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Every thread now has to become a QSI thread ?  I hope they are selling well !
p.s. Any blast backs ... and I won't be able to comment until tomorrow when I check the threads. No immediate feedback anymore.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Del. 
Good comment, especially as this is a Revolution thread and to the best of my knowledge you can't use QSI with a Revolution. But, you can use a Phoenix with a Revolution.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can indeed use a QSI with a Revolution. 

Funny timing Del, just as I apologize for derailing.. 

The QSI is just about the only thing new that is shipping... we'll find plenty to talk about when other companies make something new... 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg. 
As I understand it, the QSI TITAN cannot be used with Revolution as a stand alone sound system. 
I kept asking about that and was told by that QSI TITAN man with the E8 demo loco "that idea was considered once, but the idea was not proceeded with". 

How else can a QSI TITAN be used with Revolution? 

Have you actually tested a QSI TITAN with a Revolution?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can use it as a sound card.. feed it from the motor outputs, need a filter, like the aristo filter.... put a dummy load on the motor output to make it happy when/if programming. It has trigger inputs to use with the revo outputs. 

No have not tested it, but the question is like asking if a Sierra will work with a Revolution... not rocket science. 

If I was present when the question was asked, maybe the question was formatted weird, or asked differently. 

Since the Titan will work in DC mode, just smooth the PWM from the Revolution and trigger the triggers. 

Greg


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

No need to apologize for derailing the thread guys. I was seroiusly looking at the Revolution for when I rebuild, but if it's not available I'll need to make other plans. This entire discussion has been very informative about all the options. Many thanks to you all... 

Please continue.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. 
At last I finally get a straight answer after months of asking about the new QSI TITAN being able to read PWM. No it can't. 
To make QSI TITAN work with PWM, more bits need to be added. Whereas Phoenix can read pwm (e.g. Revolution and RCS etc) without adding any extra bits. 

The next question then is, what value resistor is needed to put a suitable load across the QSI output please? 
An answer without any snarky remarks would be appreciated. All I want to do is recommend QSI as another stand alone sound system. You never know it might even help QSI to sell some extra.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, not sure why I would give you a snarky remark on the resistor value since I brought it up. I may be many things, but setting people up like "my name is not really Fred but it's Fred" is not my M.O. 

I don't know the minimum value, since you don't really want to waste power in a resistor. I'm doing more installations and testing tomorrow, so I'll see what happens with some higher resistance resistors. 

For my programming bench, I've been using a 10 ohm resistor, since the Titan needs "a motor" when programming, but of course the power sent to the "motor" when programming is much less than running the motor. 

One thing I do need to check is if the autochuff works, since the system may be looking to count rpm. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. 
Does the QSI TITAN have the ability to count mechanically timed chuffs instead of an auto chuff?


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## HaBi Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Why do these competing technologies remind me of Beta versus VHS?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Beta and VHS are both deader than Dodo's now for mass use. Just like reel to reel tapes, 8 track cartridges, cassettes and LP's. A fate soon destined for the CD as well.









The QSI and Phoenix use more or less the same digital technology and both support DCC. The only real difference is the QSI is an actual motor driving DCC decoder and the Phoenix is not.
Even so, analogue sound systems are still available.
All of which can apparently be used by Revolution.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are huge differences between a Phoenix and any other modern DCC decoder, BEMF.... the ability to read the load on the motor and do something about it. 

This is like the difference between VHS and an 8 track tape! (the 8 track does not even do video!, just as the Phoenix does not even do motors) 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, in terms of a stand-alone sound system (outside a DCC environment), how does the QSI stand up? If it's reading motor voltage via a PWM/Linear filter, does BEMF survive that interface? The "cool" thing about QSI has always been how it interacts with motor load. Is that taken out of the equation, and if so, what are you left with? Phoenix does a good job reading changes in voltage to effect changes in the sounds; I'd presume the QSI would have something similar put in place absent the ability to read BEMF, but not having one (yet) to play with myself, hopefully you can shed some light. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Kevin, I too will be interested to hear Greg's answer to your question. It is my understanding that at this time when you use the QSI as a stand alone sound board you lose the BEMF characteristic. I have often wondered though, it seems to me that the receiver/decoder manufacturer(s) should be able to provide a signal to a sound board that would provide this information. I have been somewhat surprised that no one has done this yet.

Ed


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course I could be wrong, but I cannot imagine BEMF would survive the pwm filtering process. Hence my question six posts above about mechanically timing chuff signals.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It does have mechanical chuff triggers from everything I've read. (That was a question on the QSI e-list.) I would presume it would work in all environments (DCC, DC, and stand-alone.) 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OK Kevin. 
I guess the next question then is, is that mechanical chuff trigger one of the useable triggers on the board. Or, is the default chuff signal BEMF based and would require being assigned to one of the triggers. If that is so, does modifying the chuff trigger arrangement require buying a special programmer?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The BEMF comes from the motor that is connected to the QSI... 

battery >> ESC >> QSI >> motor 

and as kevin pointed out, if you don't connect the motor to the qsi, you can use the chuff input... 

in the case of a diesel... I really don't know if it will rev up with voltage without an actual motor connected.. 

I'll check that out... 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

How many external sound triggers in total does the QSI TITAN have?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe 6.... you are welcome to download and read the manual to verify. Also what you can do with them, they are not "fixed" in function.

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. 
That diagram will do for now. 
It seems as though the default triggers will suit most battery R/C operators wothout having to make any programming changes.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The defaults were actually chosen with products exactly like yours in mind, and your requests went a long way to ensure this functionality was in the product. 

Greg


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