# Do you wish you had a large layout?



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

There is another topic about large layouts and I don't want to sidetrack that topic but there may be a simple solution for those who wish they had a large layout but lack the time, money or space to build one. 

In my opinion large layouts are somewhat like swimming pools. They can be a lot of fun but they usually take a lot of work not just to build but to keep them up and running. Like swimming pools they are more fun when shared and like swimming pools not everybody needs to have their own. Sometimes a simple solution is available when someone nearby has a large layout and finds himself spending more time working on the layout than time spent enjoying running trains on it.

Many of us started building our layouts when we were younger and anticipating retirement. As we get older and the layouts get larger there can be an opportunity for someone getting started in the hobby to help out and in return have access to a large layout to run their trains on the large layout at least until they get around to building their own layout.

I believe several of the larger clubs work this way. Everyone helps out with the maintenance and in return everyone has a place to run their trains.

In other cases (such as myself) the layouts may not need much help building or maintaining them and friends/members bring their own locos and controls to run them.

Most people I know who have large layouts are quite happy to have visitors come over and run their trains. 
Perhaps others who have or share a large layout may wish to comment on how multiple users are accommodated on them.


Jerry


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

yes, club layouts can be a solution for many. 
depends on location. 

for private layouts the question between large or smallish depends - apart from money - on the owner prefering to build and to maintain or prefering to see the choo choo going around. 

(my indoors solution: i build the layout as a string of connected dioramas.)


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

A large layout is a lot of work and this is a hobby that should be fun, not labor intensive. I am not really out to impress anyone either. Another point you mention that I find interesting is that people would come over to run "their trains" on a larger layout. I have never seen this happen except in the live steam hobby. This is interesting. Does anyone else experience this? Regards, Dennis.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Yessir - it happens over here in UK where main131 invites folks over to run on his pretty large track - he has steam-only and sparkie-only guest days, although he won't actually kill you if you get the day mixed up and bring the 'wrong' kind of power-source train along.

I know that I and many others like me with only teeny layouts in our backyards are VERY grateful for the oppportunity presented to us by his generous and gregarious nature. 
tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I would like a large layout. I have about 800 feet, 2 loops 2 long passing sidings. Would like a lot more. I worked hard to design it for the minimum maintenance. I think I've got it down pretty well. 

It can be done without making yourself crazy. If I was in a more hostile climate, I would have an elevated layout with supports below the frost line... you CAN avoid frost heave. 

Again, it's only money and time... 

Regards, Greg


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

800ft to me is large 
whats your design secret to minimizing maint.?


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By stevedenver on 02 Jul 2010 04:56 PM 
800ft to me is large 
whats your design secret to minimizing maint.? 

Greg probably has a different solution but for me it depends on how you build your layout. Many layouts are beautiful with a lot of garden in the railroad. The closer to the ground the more work is usually involved.

For others (like me) who are focused on running trains rather than working on layouts the solution is often bringing the layout up off the ground where everything is easy to reach and easy to work on. Some (again like me) leave the garden from the railway entirely and build on elevated wood (various types) or composite decking and may even go so far as to cover the layout with green outdoor carpeting.










This requires very little maintenance - especially with stainless steel track but even brass track does not have to be that much work to maintain with locos having at least 8 track contacts. An elevated layout has the additional benefit of the wiring being easy to get to either to repair or to reconfigure.

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

im looking for a hybrid- 


im in the midst of a house renovation of large scale


my yard is a construction site at present 


so this season the RR is gone 

  i thought about a raised RR for my live steam and the very convenience you mention- could run hundreds of feet along the perimeter fence-make my Genesis and cars look like they were actually going somewhere-but this was like having a shelf-which doesn't appeal to me in the long run (so to speak) 

but i really love a beautiful garden with a very integrated and subtle RR-(for me i do not desire a "trainset in the backyard" -but as the nicest English garden rwys have done-nothing wrong with a trainset-its just i am fascinated by the integration and harmony aspect-and really love the look of trains among the foliage (my train in the basement is where i tend to do more realistic modeling and the like) 

so this time, im thinking a raised stacked moss rock wall about knee height 

  about 25 x50-perhaps a bit longer if i use some other garden beds near my koi pond  

  a large berm ( or something to block taking in the entire ROW in a glance) in the center along with some very very large rocks laid well into the soil-around which i can plant sun loving plants (the old RR was in the shade and a challenge for me to get perennials established) 

-and a very simple, gentle wider radius ROW -perhaps a gap in the berm for a subtle figure 8 inside the loop-a folded dogbone actually 



more or less level for the live steam-(but will be DC too)






having seen the photos of Allen Olson's Acoma Central in _Gorgeous Garden Railways _-thats smiilar to what i would like to create-interesting and subtle, railroady but doesnt take over the beauty of the garden -with vignettes made up of structures rather than entires towns, yards etc


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

If you add 6 holes on there appropriately placed, you got yerself a giant pool table when yer tired of runnin trains!! Hah LOL Regal


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

The PCSRR has 1300 feet of track. It's a handful to keep in shape. Our ballast is decomposed granite, which is readily available and easy to install. However, it still takes hours to reballast and bring it back to "normal". This aerial image was taken prior to the addition of the 150 foot mine/lumber loop over the track in the middle of the layout.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 02 Jul 2010 04:56 PM 
800ft to me is large 
whats your design secret to minimizing maint.? 
Stainless steel track, stainless rail joiners, large feeder wire (track power, no dead batteries, no oxidation, clean track in 2 minutes with a swiffer)
air powered turnouts (no maintenance, totally waterproof, positive motion)
free floating and on level, reinforced concrete, large ballast (no shifting, handles expansion, no significant ballast washout in rain)
quality electronics, power supply, remote system (stuff just works, no dead spots, wireless control, remote control of everything)
properly gauged wheels, properly mounted Kadees (reliable operation on 50 car trains, etc.) 


The changes to come:
All stainless wheels on all locos
elevator storage system in covered area.

I spend almost all the time running trains, very little maintenance, running off the shelf components.

I run USAT, Aristo, AML (no Bachmann only because I am SG)

Everything can be made to run and work reliably, just some tweaking on EVERY manufacturer's product.

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 02 Jul 2010 05:53 PM 
If you add 6 holes on there appropriately placed, you got yerself a giant pool table when yer tired of runnin trains!! Hah LOL Regal 
'Eggliner in the corner pocket."


While we're posting layout photos:










Non powered. Battery only. No maintenance. Mainly, it's a place to roll Madam Mallet off her carrier. 

I might do more, but somehow they think 11 hour days are appropriate for programmers.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It depends on how you do it. My layout is pretty plant intensive so I spend a lot of time weeding, well a few hours a week anyway! Ron Senek has a real large layout in NE Nevada, he just uses the plants that were there, has not planted anything or have to weed/prune. He might chime in here, I could be wrong. If you use local native plants that you don't have to do much to, maintenance could be just ballast/track.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My plants are minature trees (bonsai)... no groundcover, creeps all over everything. All my trees are in pots in the ground, keeps them growing slow and you can pull the pot out of the ground, put it up on a counter to trim and put it back, or swap plants around. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine is easier to maintain since i went to battery power just add ballast. The trees are drought tolerant and cold hardy (dead).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, layout CAN be easier to maintain, although more effort for the batteries and chargers... 

Still you have to maintain turnouts, track gauge and track crosslevel and grading no matter battery or track power. I have no extra maintenance of my track than you do because I am track powered due to the components I used.

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I consider ours a medium-sized layout with about 1,200 square feet of garden and 600 feet of brass track floating in #5 granite fines. I spend far more time on maintenance of the miniature garden (with lots of ground cover) than trains and their track/accessories. (BTW, the denser and more mature your gound cover, the fewer weeds you'll get.) I could expand, but this is plenty big for one person to take care of.

People are always welcome to bring their trains over to run, but no one does.


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## RRwannabe (Jan 20, 2009)

I wish I did. I have more of an interest in modern mainline freight so to me a large point to point lay out is what I think i would like the best. For example, have a yard type area with some yard track and a few industrial sites.Then a mainline line that leaves and heads to another yard type area with a few locals there and maybe some out lying locals in-between but not alot to keep simplicity and maintenance down. (you would basically have a couple of switching layouts joined by a mainline to add some distance in-between them) That way it feels prototypical like your getting work done not just watching a train never reach its destination. As far as the large size it seems like it just takes good planning to make sure you have good drainage and choose a good ballast. And good track if you don't want battery power. But im young and ambitious so my plans may fail horribly after I get started.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Stan, that is a great overhead shot of your railroad, but it definitely does not do it justice. It is MUCH more impressive in person!!!

Ed


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes I would like a big layout.

When it comes down to maintainance, two words. Concrete Roadbed. I know Frost Heave. I have no idea why some have and some don't. Or course I am in the desert so frost heave is not a issue. Once in while I have to touch up ballast.l But my ballast is only for show. Has nothing to do with holding the track in place or level. It can wash away and my track is till in working order. 

I have about 1k feet of track in apile I will expand till I decide it's too much.

I have a canyon that turns into a raging river during rain. I can run trains right after the rain. Cause the tracks have not moved. Bottom of the canyon is two to three inces of concrete with rebar. 

Ballast last about 4 years in the canyon but even with it gone tracks are still firm and level . I use portland cement mixed dry in my ballast. Then wet it. 

Now weeds are a issue. With a rainy winter you have a 3 to 4 ft instant forest. I can find the track with a metal detector. I use a hedge trimmer with a midified handle. I just mow. Then use a weed blower to remove the debri. 

When you spend more time working on your toys than playing with them there is something wrong


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No. Been there, done that. Track is but a small part of the equation, so even if that's zero maintenance, there's still plenty else to keep me busy. For me, the garden is every bit--if not more--important than the trains and track. The reality is that the track is pretty simple to maintain. The garden takes the lions' share of my time. On my old railroad in Rochester, the battle was trying to get plants to fill in on the garden. I was running 10' radius curve, so I had 20' of space in the loops that needed to be filled. In 6 years, it never filled in. I still had to weed, plant, and water everything, which was probably on the order of 2,000 square feet of garden. The trains ran rather well, but the railroad never achieved what I wanted for it simply because it was so massive. 

Contrast to my current railroad, which is much smaller in size. The garden is still the focal point, and still takes up much of my time, but it's manageable. I can keep on top of creeping, leaping, and otherwise intrusive vegetation in around 20 minutes, about the same time it takes me to mow my lawn. There's not a lot of real estate to play with, so my needs for buildings is less. I still need to do maintenance, but it's manageable. It's now been 6 years on this railroad, too, and it's been "filled in" for 4 of them. It really is a night-and-day difference between the two railroads and how they fulfill my aspirations. My only "wish" for my railroad was that it was deeper than it is. Much of it runs around the perimeter of my yard in a garden that's maybe 2', 3' wide at the most. That's great for viewing, but when photographing the line, it makes it harder to get those wide panoramic views which put the train in context with its surroundings. 

Later, 

K


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

OPS That is one thing I sorta left out.







I don't have a Garden.







I am just outside









So there fore my maintenance effort is a lot less.

Maybe that is another topic for discussion 

JJ 


PS Me and flowers don't get along. I scare them. They have been known to pull up roots and leave


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By blueregal on 02 Jul 2010 05:53 PM 
If you add 6 holes on there appropriately placed, you got yerself a giant pool table when yer tired of runnin trains!! Hah LOL Regal 

If you look carefully under a freight yard you will discover a pool table. My wife would not let me sell the thing after our kids grew up and moved away (no one had used the table in years). I just built over the table and when my wife complained I told her that everything was screwed together and if the kids turned up and wanted to play pool I would remove the layout. After years with no one wanting to play pool the layout expanded all around the pool table to the point that the pool table is no longer visible. 

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

One possibility regarding a maintenance free garden on the railway is if you have a wife who wants a garden.

A few years after I (mostly a friend) rebuilt another layout with no garden etc. my wife decided she wanted a garden and even hired our grandkids do the landscaping and dig a hole for a pond.

Now I have a "Garden" railway and she takes care of the garden, the pond and the fish. 

The only "work" I do is to slip outside when she is at work and snip anything that is starting to overhang the layout.

Jerry


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, what do you do for drainage when it rains or snows? 

Is the table on a slight tilt? 

What is under the green mat?

Plywood or ?


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

There are a lot of things I could have done if I'd had a larger area to work with, and I can dream up some pretty grand ideas for a large space. Being a little more realistic, I'll narrow it down to just a couple things... 

I wish I had a little more space, just enough to squeeze in a couple storage tracks and a small engine facility, and maybe a turntable. 

My second wish would be to have more room for my towns, and a mill.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By John J on 03 Jul 2010 08:18 AM 
OPS That is one thing I sorta left out.







I don't have a Garden.







I am just outside












Ditto that! That's the nice thing about using a lot of rock, and modeling desert scenery -- it keeps maintenance to a minimum. Anything that tries to grow gets zapped with a little Roundup. Of course it helps to live in a dry climate too.



Even if I were interested in modeling a different locale, and using real plants for trees, I would still use rocks and mortar to construct most of the terrain, and just build in some "pockets" to put the trees.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By rlvette on 03 Jul 2010 11:08 AM 
Jerry, what do you do for drainage when it rains or snows? 

Is the table on a slight tilt? 

What is under the green mat?

Plywood or ?


Hi Randy,

The layout is made of sheets of treated plywood with a frame of treated 2" x 4"s supported by treated 4" x 4"s each of which is in a concrete base.










The carpeting and joints in the wood provide drainage as necessary. If needed I drill a few drain holes.

With forty four 4" x 4"s supporting it, the layout is built to support my 325 lbs crawling or walking on it.

We seldom get snow here in Arkansas but this winter we did and it just made everything look extra nice.










I do have a problem that I will have to address which is that the plywood I bought has turned out to be pretty badly made and it has started separating (warping) in some places causing an irregularity in the surface. I will have to eventually do something about it. I did not have this problem with previous plywood I had used elsewhere but I probably made a mistake by not painting or staining it.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

No.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Why do people ask these Qs? 
I wish I had a large layout and could afford to hire some cheap white people from up north to take care of it.


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

*To ask for a new large or larger layout would be nice, but I wouldn't mind having my old layout back. *
*Even though it was a maintanance headache from time to time, I sure do miss it. My next larger layout, *
*Whenever and where ever would have to be about 3 feet above the ground level. This gettin down on the*
* ground will start getting harder and harder as the years go by. But for now, I can just remember all the fun *
*things about the "little big layout", thankfully I shot lots of pictures of it during the years I had it. *
*Perhaps it would be fun to go out and work on the present teeny tiny layout today and run something in r
ememberance. Wish I could run that P-2 4-8-2, oh well running anything trains is better than nothing.*
[/b] *Rocky*


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## 6323 (Jan 17, 2008)

I wish I had a bit more space, just so I could use a slightly larger curve.
Right now, I'm lucky to have just enough room to fit an 8 foot Diameter curve!
Out back anyway. I'm working on expanding a little bit, and able to work out just
enough space to enlarge backyard to 10 foot Diameter curves.
Nothing much larger, as I'd like to keep maintenance down as much as possible!!
Gotta pull weeds as it is, so I can find part of my track!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Simple question. What is the definition for a large or small layout?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Paul Burch on 04 Jul 2010 09:03 AM 
Simple question. What is the definition for a large or small layout?


A "Large" layout is one that it bigger than you have and a "Small" layout is one that is smaller than you have.

ME? I want a layout big enough to justify a 15-ft diameter 3/4 roundhouse (around 42 stalls), with enough track to hold a train that REQUIRES two Live Steam locos to be pulled and have that whole train hidden from view for at least 1 second before it returns to a "hump yard" large enough to hold two to three times as many cars as are in the train. You know, just a "modest" layout for Live Steam Operations!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper,
Your definition is probably about as good as it will get.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Had a large layout 1200 sq ft. Next layout will be large, but more for running distance and will run around the outside edges of the yard rather than an "island" layout. Last layout was 16" off the ground for good water drainage and will do the same again.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd settle for just an "outdoor" layout, small or large.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

I have tried to build a railroad that is large enough to run a fairly lengthy train, but small enough to take care of. (App. 300 ft. main line with 20 ft. diameter/10ft. radius curves and #6 turnouts) The center is covered with grass with a tunnel allowing lawnmower access so any part of the railroad needing maintenance is only a few feet wide. Next, a 4 track elevated, covered steamup bay angled off the railroad tie berm.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

A big layout sounds too much like work. More work = Less fun 

I find it interesting how you hear that so many people with those huge layouts burn out fast, or otherwise 'lose interest' -- while so many of the 'little' guys just keep plugging along with their little toys for a decade or more.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 04 Jul 2010 06:39 PM 
A big layout sounds too much like work. More work = Less fun 

I find it interesting how you hear that so many people with those huge layouts burn out fast, or otherwise 'lose interest' -- while so many of the 'little' guys just keep plugging along with their little toys for a decade or more. 

BIGGER THE BETTER lots more fun and real RRing not toyish stuff in my opionion........................... Little guys to each there own.







God i luv this hobby. And ive never heard of the big guys getting burnt out fast? were did you get that one from? only from the smaller fellas.............







big layouts sound like fun in the sun.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 04 Jul 2010 11:38 AM 
I'd settle for just an "outdoor" layout, small or large. 

Smart man........... to each there own is in the eye of the beholder...............VERY COOL at least some people in the hobby get the fact that we are all in it together...... Big or Small Large is Largescale........


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 03 Jul 2010 08:21 PM 
Why do people ask these Qs? 
I wish I had a large layout and could afford to hire some cheap white people from up north to take care of it. 

I dont understand why people ask these questions either, But im a cheap whiteish lookin fella from the north and can be bought for some run time.........







Once you go track you never go back.


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 04 Jul 2010 07:08 PM 
Posted By Mik on 04 Jul 2010 06:39 PM 
A big layout sounds too much like work. More work = Less fun 

I find it interesting how you hear that so many people with those huge layouts burn out fast, or otherwise 'lose interest' -- while so many of the 'little' guys just keep plugging along with their little toys for a decade or more. 

BIGGER THE BETTER lots more fun and real RRing not toyish stuff in my opionion........................... Little guys to each there own.







God i luv this hobby. And ive never heard of the big guys getting burnt out fast? were did you get that one from? only from the smaller fellas.............







big layouts sound like fun in the sun. 

I agree Nick, sounds like someone is once again pushing the smaller is better thing again and they think its the only way to go WRONG WRONG WRONG Why does there always have to be a ------- in the mix.
Everybody has their own way of doing things so get over it and move on...im also of the opioin the bigger is the way the hobby is headed. MORE YOUNGER PEOPLE, MORE TRACK, MORE AND BIGGER CHOO CHOOS. and ive never heard the[ I find it interesting how you hear that so many people with those huge layouts burn out fast] either................... sounds like a silly statement to me as well.
Johnn


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know that anyone is pushing "smaller is better" in any of these responses--at least not for anyone other than themselves in their own current situations. I envy people with the space and time to build and maintain large railroads. I used to have the space, so I set out to build a railroad on the scale of my dad's railroad. It ended up being an albatross. You've simply got to have the time and energy to maintain a large railroad for it to be fun. I knew from my experience that my "next" railroad (i.e, my current one) would be much smaller, so to better blend with the realities of my available time and be something I could enjoy. When my situation alters to give me more space and time, you can bet your favorite locomotive I'll look for ways to put 200' of track between each of my towns, so there's a definite sense of distance over which you have to run the trains. I really miss that sense of distance that my dad is able to achieve on his line. 

In my opinion, the spectrum of the hobby is broadening, not shifting. People are gravitating towards the larger models because they're just becoming available and they have a desire for them. The "small-minded" folks (and I count myself in that camp) are still able to pursue our niche with relative ease. I don't see the "big stuff' taking over at the expense of "small stuff" except that the small stuff must now share production time. No big deal (pardon the pun) if you ask me. A broader selection is better for the hobby. 

As for the "burn-out" issue, I've definitely seen it over the decades. People come in with these grandiose ideas of their ideal backyard empire, often because they see others with large railroads and decide that's the "only" way to enjoy the hobby. They do so for no other reason than they don't see examples of alternatives, or they fail to realize many "large" railroads started small and expanded over time. Some are successful. They build their empires and are pleased as punch. Others discover that the time and energy required for such a large railroad don't fit within their lifestyle. Some just scale back and adapt. But others chuck the lot on ebay and do something completely different. Sure, better for us because we get to snap up 2nd-hand bargains. But would it not be better for the hobby to showcase a whole range of railroads, giving newcomers the confidence that they can start small if that's what fits their lifestyle best, saving them a great deal of frustration in the process? 

Later, 

K


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Smaller MIGHT be better. The question was "Do you wish...?" Emphasis on* personal* Some people just need to actually_ read_ what's _written_, and how it's written -- and leave their own prejudices and fragile egos out of it. 

If you want my whole opinion, on building and maintaining a layout, go here: http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/21/aft/116358/Default.aspx 

As for the original suggestion of joining a club... the closest LS one is 50 miles away from me.... Not really an option. But it's one people should consider if they can.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you read this thread, the title asks if you wish you had a large layout. 

The thread originator then basically says smaller might be "better" right off the bat. 

But no one really takes the bait, and it evolves into basically that maintenance is what REALLY makes a layout "large" or "small" ... very insightful if you think about it. 

Ron S. comes in and basically (as I take it) says that his PHYSICALLY big layout is offset by natural planting and no electrical maintenance of track. 

Having about 800 feet, my layout is usually termed "big" because of the numbers, but the methods of construction make it nice and small. 

I learned a lot from this thread, and it's a really good concept to give to beginners. 

Regards, Greg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Link to free suggestions has changed due to a happy over helpful moderator - it's now here: http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/21/aft/116365/Default.aspx


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Those wishing larger layouts need to consider that to some "size" carries a "maintenance" caveat. And this goes way beyond cleaning track.

On the T&LBRR (what I consider as a medium-sized layout with ~1,200 sq ft of area and ~600 ft of track),

With >100 light bulbs, electrical continuity and up-keep becomes a constant chore to keep them lit. Ever try to solder low voltage cable that has been in the ground for several years?







(The track is all jumpered and this is the least of our continuity worries.)

With >300 figures, repair and painting are an ongoing process.

With ~5 dozen structures, wood needs to continually be repainted/replaced. Plastic must be reglued. Plastic windows get brittle, break, and require replacement. Signs are continually redone. 

The ultrasonic misters used in our volcanos/hot tubs are now made very cheaply and continually require replacement.

Then there is the garden as an on-going task...

...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, maintenance is something people undervalue often. 

But, you CAN design your layout to minimize this. Like Ron posted, no extra vegetation, no track power, minimum maintenance. 

If you want structures, more maintenance. If you want lights, more. etc. 

But, having a large layout does not mean you HAVE to have lots of structures. I have 800 feet, no structures or lights. I have all SS rail and rail clamps, so I can have a "large" layout with "small" maintenance. 

For me, these trade-offs were worth it. 

Regards, Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Jul 2010 02:57 PM 
But, having a large layout does not mean you HAVE to have lots of structures. 

right. one does not have to.
but at least part of a layout should have adequate surroundings for all the fine locos and trains.
just bare walls and fences over floortiles steal the realism, the trains try to transmit.

for me at least it feels better, to see a train pass by a - let's say - scale brewery, than by the backyard gutter.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

This is a topic that has no right or wrong answers just as I do not believe that there are any wrong layouts. I have never visited a layout that I did not appreciate including some that amazed me that they worked because they broke all the rules I had come to believe in.

It is simply amazing what some people have accomplished when funds, space and options were limited. 

If anything my message (especially to newbies) it to not let circumstances get in the way of enjoying this hobby. Some folks run trains on the floor through their house, others run just at Christmas, others have intensive layouts in confined spaces while others roam through their acres. Others yet have had their trains and track etc. sitting in boxes for years talking about when they will build their layouts. To me they are all winners including those who have not yet made their first purchase but are enjoying thinking about it.

Someone mentioned burnout with large layouts. This has been true for me. This was also true for me when I had a small large scale layout and when I had large and small O Gauge layouts and when all I had was an HO layout. I do not think this is unique to our hobby because I think it is our nature to tire of doing the same thing over and over. As I look at the postings on MLS it is apparent that many other long time posters tend to go away for awhile (sometimes for years) and later return. 

I once took a course that brought out that we tend to fall into one of three categories - some of us enjoy starting (building) things, others excel at completing things and others yet enjoy maintaining things. Often our jobs reflect this. As a salesman I was always starting things (with new customers or new products). I think we should understand and accept it as normal if their interest comes and goes (perhaps goes in the heat of summer or the cold of winter).

I believe boredom can also be a part of the cycle of this hobby. At times I get bored with a train running in circles but then I get interested in doing something different that rekindles my interest. Having others to share the hobby with also helps maintain interest which is why I suggested looking for others to share the hobby with. Often (since there are very few other large scalers locally) it is sharing the hobby on MLS that keeps my interest going - as I suspect is true for many others.

As I look at my layouts I find broken houses that have gone unrepaired for years as I was expanding the layout or building another layout elsewhere.

My concern for newbies is that I believe it is important for them to understand and appreciate the fact that, if their circumstances or interests do not call for large layouts, that they can have every bit as much fun with a train running through the living room and under the kitchen table as someone else who has a huge layout running long trains around wide sweeping curves.

Jerry


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## Dwayne (Jun 10, 2010)

As Jerry above states, there is no right or wrong answer. Many here are into big engines, long consists, tons of track. If so and it pleases you then that's okay. 

I'm in the planning stages of my line on the five acres I own. It'll be a simple point to point line with a short spur. Couple of short passing sidings. Dinky little engines, three and four car consists. Maybe five-hundred feet of handlaid track and a half dozen stub switches. Laid back and easy going. 

Play with the trains when the mood strikes. Or not.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 04 Jul 2010 07:13 PM 
Posted By vsmith on 04 Jul 2010 11:38 AM 
I'd settle for just an "outdoor" layout, small or large. 

Smart man........... to each there own is in the eye of the beholder...............VERY COOL at least some people in the hobby get the fact that we are all in it together...... Big or Small Large is Largescale........ 

My idea of a "big" layout is the one I designed for the back corner of the yard, its only 10' x 25', even have boxes of track to build it stored away, but I have list of "to-do's" as long as my arm that have to get built _first_, including a new cinder block wall along the property line where it would go, before I can even _think _of starting it. So I wish I simply _had_ the option for an outdoor layout, large or small, you guys with acreage are lucky guys indeed.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Big....yes, only if 3.5 or 5" gauge tho....no if 45 or 32mm.


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## TrotFox (Feb 15, 2008)

I'd like to have a layout...  This is all I currently have: 

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=31391369&id=1152216581 

Not even a complete loop since I've moved so many times that the old Micro-Engineering tie strips are totaled. All the rail is stacked just to the left of the door waiting for me to hand-spike it as I've done with what's on the ground.  

Trot, the graduated, fox... =D


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Trot- 

Nice to have another TN resident banging around here. Interesting layout loop, especially that big red bit in the middle!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Trot!!! Haven't seen you in ages! Welcome back! 

Later, 

K


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By TrotFox on 07 Jul 2010 07:02 PM 

Trot, the graduated, fox... =D 

Nice to see you posting again.


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## TrotFox (Feb 15, 2008)

It's nice to have some time to post.  

Trot, the ever-busy, fox...


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Honestly can't remember If I posted on this thread or not? I am not going back thru 6 pages this morning to check either. 

I want a large layout with minimal maintenance. Single or double mainline and few sidings. I want continuous running from one corner of my property to the opposing corner runnning along the back of the property and up one side. It HAS to co-exist in the yard with other people, things, and interests and THAT is a problem. 
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=4096619&id=531877592 
This shot shows just a portion of the itnrests and is along the back of our property. I wish I could "co-opt" somehow, the field behind us, but that belongs to a northern baptist church up the street. They mow it about every two weeks. That would give me acres. Rigth now our lot is a little over 1/2 acre and includes the dog run, the pool, the swingset, the hot tub, the house, the garage, and a shed. There are, currently only two trees actually ON our property as we lost one in a wind storm this spring. I'd like to get rid of the shed and buy a new one for train storage place it next to the pool and incorporate the pool equipment into it. It would also need to be able to store stuff in the winter. I waffle on that plan though. If i can put a diofferent roof on the garage then I'd consider keeping the existing shed and moving it closer to the pool. I've talked about how I think that a large layout would impact my weekly yard chores now in the old forum here someplace. I was concenred and am concenred about how it will affect my lawn mowing whihc is pretty simple considering the obstacles I've got to mow around. I have a gravel driveway with 4 cars and two utility trailers currently. on top of the previous;y mentioned "stuff". I still need to teach the kids to pick up the dog piles though. Anyhow for now that is my vision. I'm hoping to start small later this summer with a loop in the garden out front. Literally just thrown down to get something running. We will see where it goes from there.... 

Chas


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I am planning to double my railroad capacity next year. 

Someone early on asked about if people come over and bring their trains to run. On my railroad, the answer is yes. I have several local friends who do just that. We get together on occassion and run trains. The new railroad will be built so that I can have two trains operating per loop and maybe a switch engine working a yard. Oh, and we're track powered using TE Revo equipment.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Back to one of the first issues brought up: sharing. Marty Cozad is another example of someone with a large, by any definition, layout who allows people to run their own trains. He has an open house every year and receives several other visits throughout the year. So yeah, it happens.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

We encourage members to bring their own locos to run on our club (my) layout. Part of the reason is so they feel a sense of ownership of the layout. We want them to feel like they have a layout to use at least until they build their own.

Another part of the reason is that accidents do happen and if someone is not paying attention and lets a train get away from him its better if he breaks his loco than one of mine or another member's.

One member likes to run his(?) trains (too) fast. After breaking at least one of another member's locos we decided not to let him run unless he brings his own locos.

The fact is that there is always the chance that something can happen causing a derailment or accident. A leaf or twig or nut can fall from a tree and cause a derailment or accident even if the operator is not doing anything wrong. I've had a defective power supply put full power to the rails. 

If the owner of the layout is providing everything he is the one usually stuck with the consequences when something happens. At least when a member has his money in the loco that is running he is much more likely to watch out for things that might break HIS loco.

Jerry


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

I also have a very good size layout in progress and i use track power as well, Oh, and i would never reccomend the revolution to anyone. It spent more time in the repair shop then on the layout.
DC track power will be the only way for now.

Johnn


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Johnn,

That is too bad. We've had a lot of success with it.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

My current layout suits me just fine, but I wish I had a large, climate controlled garage for a work area and 'junque' storage..... Maybe someday I'll at least be able to afford a carport. 


As for visitors, if it will go around R-2s, doesn't mind a few dips, and is not so long as to hang up in the tunnels....... then bring it over! We usually have beer or wine in the fridge and brats to grill or spaghetti to boil.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm in the go big or go home crowd








Nothing against the small guys but that's not for me.
As far as ALL the maintenence that a large layout demands well so what








The tradeoff is more than worth the time spent weeding or whatever








At the end of the day it's about having fun









This guy has it right IMHO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I got 82 cars plus caboose. Wow, especially considering the length of the container cars. 

Yep, I run SG and like long trains too! 

Greg


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04 Jul 2010 09:42 AM 
A "Large" layout is one that it bigger than you have and a "Small" layout is one that is smaller than you have.





LOL!! So true!


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 11 Jul 2010 06:01 PM 



A "Large" layout is one that it bigger than you have and a "Small" layout is one that is smaller than you have.
 


No matter how much I add to my medium-sized layout, it remains just that--medium in size.  For its first ten years it was not even that. These large-scale layouts sometimes take a little time to expand, assuming space availability, which, fortunately,  is not an issue here.  


Within the last three seasons, but especially by this one, the layout has finally reached proportions that seem to truly justify operating 1:29 scale streamline passenger cars. I cannot imagine running those long coaches and super-large diesels on "small" layouts.  Years ago here on MLS I made a similar comment, which was that the name "Great Northern"--a flag line I planned to operate at that time-- could _only_ be justified on a "large" layout.  After all, the "Great" in Great Northern _should_ mean exactly that or the name would mean nothing.  No point in even initiating a g-scale layout representing a large mainline without _planning_ for "large," regardless of whether one actually "arrives."  


Well, I most certainly _did_ plan for "large. "  While the layout has never quite reached the "large" status, it  has finally developed to the point that it gives the _appearance_ of "large."


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