# Does anyone complain the length of AristoCraft straight track not enough?



## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi all, I am Gary from Hong Kong. 

I had order 3 types of AristoCraft straight tracks for my upcoming train show, there are 
60” SS straight tracks
60” Aluminum straight tracks
72” Aluminum flex tracks
When they arrived, I found the actually length of the tracks are shorter than the description they mentioned. ‘approximate 1 inch’.
The result is I need to do some modification work for my scratch build Deck Girder bridges, a little disappointed. I will send them a complain letter for this case, any comment?
I attached some photos FYI. 

Regards,
Gary 

60" Aluminum straight tracks

















72" Aluminum flex track


















60" SS straight track


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

This picture says it all - 










Read the bottom part of the tape for metric sizing! 
It should be sold as a 1.5 meter length and not 5 feet but most of America chooses to be metric ignorant. 


-Brian


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The only non metric measured track I have seen is the USA #6 switch. 
The box says 36 inches and when I measured it it was 36 inches. 

All other code 332 track I have seen is metric, and comes up a little short when converted to 'feet' measurements.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I never measured it before, I always need track . Long live non-metric.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes there is a differeance because the track is probably cut using a metric ruler. Then there is a Inch and Feet sticker put on the box. They figure that all layouts are custom made and some where you will have to cut a piced of track to make it fit. There fore you will not notice the differance. If you figure all the trak that is sold in the US That inch adds up to a lot of savings. Just not for you. It's like the bean counter who discovered that if they put one less olive in the jar the company could save millions over a period of time. 

I had a lot of trouble when setting up a press and the paper with is in inches and the press wants metric. Sone one sat down using a calculator figured a chart that converted metric to inches. Well there is a fudge factor in there. The image was off center. They had to keep adjusting the guide. The wanted me to recalabrate the system. So I just bought everyone Metric rulers and they measure the paper and enter the data. The press loves it. 
All my problems went away.


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Hi Gary, 

All the Aristo track will be metric lengths to make it compatible with LGB. 
So "5 foot" = 150cm (as shown on your tape measure), and "6 feet" = 180cm.


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## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if they're accounting for heat expansion on your layout?


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I said one day, "We all know what a meter is. Specify the real length."

I was loudly shouted down about metrification


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking as a non American, metric is the way the vast majority of the world measures ... so I like a metric lengths. Aristo should say that in their packaging however ...

Regards ... Doug


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm possibly gonna start a firestorm here, but I buy only American made track( Llagas Creek or Sunset Valley). A six-foot length measures 72". Why? Because I still can. 
Unfortunately, I can't do much of the same with engines and rolling stock. 

Larry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By John J on 31 Aug 2009 05:34 AM 
Yes there is a differeance because the track is probably cut using a metric ruler. Then there is a Inch and Feet sticker put on the box. They figure that all layouts are custom made and some where you will have to cut a piced of track to make it fit. There fore you will not notice the differance. If you figure all the trak that is sold in the US That inch adds up to a lot of savings. Just not for you. It's like the bean counter who discovered that if they put one less olive in the jar the company could save millions over a period of time. 

I had a lot of trouble when setting up a press and the paper with is in inches and the press wants metric. Sone one sat down using a calculator figured a chart that converted metric to inches. Well there is a fudge factor in there. The image was off center. They had to keep adjusting the guide. The wanted me to recalabrate the system. So I just bought everyone Metric rulers and they measure the paper and enter the data. The press loves it. 
All my problems went away.

JJ, do you really think they care? Do you really think they care what 'we figure'? They didn't think of the modeler. They used their metric measures and slapped the closest inch measure on it. Screw the customer! They probably thought we would never notice!




Strange side note; couldn't get the cursor to give me a starting point left clicking, a right click opened the box, but also left the cursor marker in the right place, then a left click to remove the box and I can type..... My cusor shows as the hand, not the arrow.
John


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi all, 
Glad to seeing the discussion, 
I don't think AristoCraft will saving the "expensive material" for that inch, but I think they should be provided the actual length of the track in any measuring unit, cause I am making a 20 feet long metal bridge and the tracks supporting point is base on the rail joints.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, they could advertise the correct length. If they are copying LGB, which is in metric, then they should give the metric size. 

This is not rocket science. It makes it difficult to construct things to great accuracy. 

Nowhere does it say that the dimensions are approximate or nominal, nor does it ever reference any metric units. 

The catalog does tell you that Aluminum is less conductive than brass. Hmm... 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep they could have just as well stated that its metric and avoided a lot of confusion. When folks are planning a RR they would tend to use what is said as being 5 ft till they get it and now its shorter than expected. Then they wounder why folks get mad. Later ?RJD


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

1 inch here, 1 inch there, adds up look at all the money they save.


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Funny I have never measured Aristo track...then again I have never bought any except two 12" rerailers... wonder if they are actually 300mm ? Personally, I don't care which units they use (yes I visualize in English units cause that's what I live with) - but be accurate!! Would hate to find out that 2x4's are slightly less than 8' all the sudden LOL.


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Gary, all of my track is Aristo Craft brass flex track. I would not have anytihing else. The only thing about flex track is cutting the connectors between the ties on the inside of the curve. The new A/C two rail bender says that you need not cut the tabs, but I have found it sure bends better and stays there with the tabs cut.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't think is a case of not caring. I think that it is more of what's available on the market. This is the closest thing to 5 FT. Then more exact they want it the more it costs. I like to think they are making something the market will bear. 



One of the other things that I tell my customers when the point out the fact that brand X has this feature and this brand has that feature. I tell them that "It could not have been a very good Idea. When they say why? I say "We didn't copy it"


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Gary, if you buy AML track it is the rite size,tabs are already cut for flex rail, it bends nicer and much cheaper than aristo. if i was to buy brass rail AML would be the only one on the list for price and quality 2nd to none..


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

I initally bought 500' of track, which means they shorted me a little over 8 feet (if my math is right). That would explain alot because I put a lot of time into planning my layout and I came out short. With track prices they way they are now, thats $40-$50 they're gettin ya for on 500' of track. Or another way to look at it is a foot a box.... 
That's just not right. Advertise what it is, metric or otherwise. 

Terry


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

I would have to say they are pushing a nominal size on us. Go buy a 2x4 from the lumber yard. You are more than likely getting a piece of wood 1-1/2" by 3-1/2" or 3/8 plywood at 11/32" thick. I guess it pays to over plan for the shortages.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

Hi everyone, I am Tony in Hong Kong also. I have work with Gary on train show together. I would be so surprise that why Aristo Craft had printed all sizes of tracks on boxes and catalogue with unit of inch. But, all tracks had done with measurement of metric system. Frankly, this is a bit difficult to arranging a track plan. 

In the meanwhile, I would let you all know that most of curve tracks are also in wrong measurement with specific diamention on catalogue. Gary and me had bought the curve tracks in diameter of 20 feet but the actual measurement of diameter is 19 feet. As well as another curve tracks in diameter of 16.5 feet, the actual measurement of diameter is 15.25 feet. We had spent a lot of time for measurement and construction of tables in curve sections. Wow...this is difficult job ! 

It seen most of people know and accept Aristo Craft to running with the metric measurement and found out the different of length, why Aristo Craft is still put all measurement in unit of inch. We are also understand how does the measurement of metric system. The main point is...we could be more accurated to measured and constructed our tables and track plan if Aristo Craft could list all measurement in metric system.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this is a non-issue, just like I go to the lumber company and buy 2"X 6"s,,, I bet you have a number of pieces in your scrap box that would make up the difference.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Marty,

I may be a non-issue with straight track, but it is a BIG issue with curved track. Flex track solves this problem or get a rail-bender and readjust the existing curves to meet your design. IMHO


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I'm thinking of all the new GRRs I have seen, they bought the track and curves and used them as a guide to accomplish the desire design. 
Inch or so off was not a problem.


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya gotta measure before you buy. As mentioned before, a 2x4 is no longer 2 inches by 4 inches, and a "8 foot" stud 2x4 is NOT 8 feet long. It is 'pre-cut' to allow a carpenter to build 8 foot ceilings where the stud sits on a 2x4 and supports one or two more, forget exactly what.

Measure twice, cut once.

Art


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Schlosser on 01 Sep 2009 01:56 PM 
Ya gotta measure before you buy. As mentioned before, a 2x4 is no longer 2 inches by 4 inches, and a "8 foot" stud 2x4 is NOT 8 feet long. It is 'pre-cut' to allow a carpenter to build 8 foot ceilings where the stud sits on a 2x4 and supports one or two more, forget exactly what.

Measure twice, cut once.

Art


You forgot the other half of that old adage...

Measure twice, Cut once, buy another board.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

8 foot long 2x4's are exactly 8 foot long at every store here in San Diego. 

2x4's have been 2x4 "nominal" forever, but get a 4x4 fence post and it is 4 inches by 4 inches... I have never seen the length be "nominal"... and my home depot does indicate that 3/4 plywood's REAL thickness... 

If you don't have a local hobby shop that stocks all the aristo track and allows you to open the boxes and take out a tape measure, how would someone know? Not fair. 

Luckily, I bought a RR software package that has "real" lengths, but the diameters are still off. 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

2X4's have been UNDERSIZE for years. When I buy pipe that is listed as 1/2 inch, I expect to get 1/2, not 3/4! Aristo needs to correct this IMHO. When I purchased track from Sunset Valley, I received the exact length I ordered AND it was the right height also-Code 250 was .250". LGB flex track was always listed as metric and that was understood. Aristo needs to have SOME standards for pete's sake! This is the 21st century.


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## Joe McGarry (Jan 4, 2008)

Geez, I just went out to the garage and measured a couple of Aristo 5' straight sections. They were 59"...... but they came in a 5' box









Also recently bought a box of 12" tie strips, they are actually 11" in length, go figure

Most fir 2 x4's i have bought are a full 8' in length, other lumber like oak, poplar etc are usually slightly over 8' which alows a little margin for trimming the ends square.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Did anobody happen to pay attention to Gary's location?


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree its oddly advertised, but I thought they had to keep the boxes under 5ft, otherwise there are extra oversized shipping charges for everyone ? 
I recall hearing about that in the past atleast, but dont remember the exact length/products. 

-Ray


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this is a non-issue, just like I go to the lumber company and buy 2"X 6"s,,, I bet you have a number of pieces in your scrap box that would make up the difference. 

Sure wouldn't be a non-issue if it was me buying the track...it's blatant false advertising in my mind...and in the meantime Lewis pockets another couple percent markup... 

Keith


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder... if you purchased a number of boxes of track,that would be one thing, but if you ordered a number of feet of track, then would you get the number of feet you ordered or the number of boxes divided by the number of "nominal feet" in a box? 

If you placed an order for "500-feet" of track would you get 100 track sections or 101.7 track sections?


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

It seen everyone had missed what Gary had been talking about !! Anyhow, we couldn't have chanced to measured any track before we bought. Because, we are in Hong Kong. We through mail order for purchased. We hope our mention could wake up the manager of quality assurance in Aristo Craft to improve their products. I believe this is very easy to printing an actual measurement on packing and catalogue, I'm right ? ...


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

It is probably within there product production tolerances...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, exact lengths in metric... EVERY "5 foot" length is exactly 1 inch short.. too much data to ignore... worse is the curve diameters different... tell me about it when I hooked up my carefully designed plan and found that things were not as advertised.. it was a learning experience. 

Now put yourself in a foreign country, where there is no chance to verify any of these dimensions yourself. Go back to the first few posts and look at the tape measure.

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

It is probably within there product production tolerances... 

Not even Aristocrafts tolerances are that wide! They know exactly what they are doing... 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Here In Australia when you used to buy timber you asked for 2" x 4" dressed or undressed. Dressed was actually 1 3/4" x 3 3/4". The difference was the 1/8" cut removed from the four sides when they dressed (as in finished) the surfaces. 
Nowadays we are all metric. For everything.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

See, That is what happends when you make a carfule plan.







It gives you Problems? Now me I just head out across my acerage and hope nothing gets in the way.









How ever is something does I have three Choises. 

1. Go around it.

2. Go through it. 

3. Get the back hoe and get rid of it.









Except in the case of a saguro







then we defer to plan one.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

* Soooo, why can't Aristo Craft print on the box 59 inch long?*


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Always wondered that myself. "If it's 150cm, just say 1.5M, not 5ft."


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I think this (metric sizing) is just another case of the US expecting the rest of the world to do things our way.

The simple truth is (I believe) that LGB started the G Scale garden railroad revolution. They did it in Germany for Germans so naturally they did everything in metric sizes (lengths and circles).

Aristo imported LGB and eventually became competitors of LGB. By then the world standard for G Gauge was established as metric (45mm track - remember).

Many Americans (me included) have a real problem converting metric to feet and Celsius to Fahrenheit so is it not natural for manufacturers to try to simplify their products so we can better understand them?

I still don't have a clue when I hear it is 30 degrees Celsius outside but when I hear that track is 300 meters I think of it as a foot even though I know it is a bit short of a foot.

We are buying an international product for which we are about 25% of the market. Are we the mouse that roared or should we finally switch to the metric system (or at least have our kids be taught the metric system so they can translate it for us? 

Didn't the British develop our system and didn't the British convert to metric?

I too struggled with the metric sizing of track etc. but the truth is that working with metric sizes becomes much easier since multiples and additions of metric sizes are SO much easier to calculate than multiples or additions of feet and inches.

If Aristo-Craft started relabeling and reprinting everything to include metrics and feet there would be a cost involved which we would complain about.

While I can and do appreciate the frustration expressed sometimes it is easier to accept the elephant in the garden than it is to replace it. 

Jerry


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Hi, 

What, you wanted three meter lengths? 

This is an area where casual conversation meets reality. When I built my portable layout, using Aristo five foot lengths on the straights, I found out that they were actuall 59.055 inches long. While my work is not precise to three decimal places, I did try to get it right to the nearest inch. 

Not a big deal. When accuracy is important, measure (twice) and go on. On the other hand, what Aristo takes away in length, they more than give back in heighth and width -- have you seen the figures for how heavy .332 track is when scaled up to prototype? 

Regards, Mike


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentlemen,
"What we have here is a failure to communicate!" (The warden in _Cool Hand Luke_) From what we have seen it would appear that Aristo straight sections of track are _not_ actually 5 ft. as advertised! This is good to know. What about the _other_ lengths of track? Also, how is USA's accuracy on lengths? What about Piko and LGB? What about AMS? If the length is _actually_ metric then it should be advertised as _nominally_ 5 ft.! They can put it in the fine print but it should be there! Of course, that won't change the situation. The 5 ft. sections will still be only 59" long so we need to adapt! That's why MLS is such a great resource!


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

It's simple Just print the actual sizes on the packaging and product literature. No need to fuss over it. Even my local Home Depot now carries and labels all the lumber in nominal metric sizes. Why? I thnk most of our wood is coming out of Canada. Used to be a 2x4 was 1 1/2 by 3 1/2. No longer. It is 1 1/2 (35 mm) by 3 3/16 (80 mm) or something close to that. They also offer full 8 foot lengths OR something shorter as was mentioned BUT the big diffrence is that they TELL you what size you are buying. Assuming they did not mix up the sizes or got the signs in the right place. I bought and paid for 2x12's and got 2x10's a few months ago. (sigh) It was my fault as I was tired and it was late just before they closed for the night. 

Bottom line, truth in advertising. Put the actual size on the packaging, and it should NOT cost anymore than a production switch. 

Chas


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

On the other hand, using the lumber comparison, I remember when they changed the size of a "2x4" from 1-5/8"x3-5/8" to 1-1/2"x3-1/2", no one made any notation of the change. I think it is commendable that Home Depot lets you know that their 2x4's are smaller than what we expect, but in my Home Depot there are no signs, boards are just listed as 2x4's ---- and of course they are not. My point being, that while it would be nice if Aristo mentioned on their packaging and advertisements that their track wasn't exactly 5' long, etc., this discrepancy occurs in many places in our lives with no notice taken.

Ed


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I think Gary should write a note to Lewis and ask for a refund of time and maerials...because he believed their printed words.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The curves aren't right either, at least the "8 foot" ones. They are really 46.26" radius or about 3.5" under 8 foot diameter. These follow the "R3" standard of LGB track which is 117.5 cm in radius.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

To get the proper dimension of AC track figure that an advertised foot, linear or diameter, is 300 mm (11.81 inches). I call this a metric foot. In my buisness a lot of engineers think of a foot as being 300 mm, its a real nice round number..................Jim


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jmill24 on 02 Sep 2009 11:32 AM 
To get the proper dimension of AC track figure that an advertised foot, linear or diameter, is 300 mm (11.81 inches). I call this a metric foot. In my buisness a lot of engineers think of a foot as being 300 mm, its a real nice round number..................Jim


No offense intended, but I certainly do not wish to drive across any bridges that those engineers were involved with... nor fly in any airplanes they might design. Hope my health aids (medicine or crutches) weren't manufactured by machines they developed.









I suppose in the hobby realm, a give or take of an inch ain't much, but there would be absolutely no expense in adding the TRUE dimension to the label on the box and in advertising. I don't care what the dimension is (within reason... I don't want to buy track in 1 centimeter sections!) or how it is specified (label it in fractions of a furlong, for all I care!) as long as I know what I am paying for!

This amounts to "shorting" the customer. It happens in all sorts of ways in commerce, from putting one less olive in a jar (sold by jar size, not content quantity) to mixing cheap "additives" to things to save on the expensive ingredients.

Anybody ever heard of a "Baker's Dozen"? Know what it means? It means 13 instead of 12. The reason for that is because, many years ago, a Baker could be PUT TO DEATH for shorting a customer, so they began to be sure to give one extra when someone ordered a dozen, just to be sure they got what they paid for!


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got to go along with truth in advertising... You cannot say something is 5 feet if it isn't. Don't matter that other stuff/vendors do it and it does not matter if there is or is not any hue and cry from the masses over it. If you mislead someone in order to get their money it is wrong. 

Best, 
TJ


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

You should get what they indicate your purchasing, should you not? 
If they say 5' then it should be 5'. I don't think anyone really cares if it is 60" or 59” inches. We just don't want to be deceived. That leaves a bad taste, like we are being cheated. 

As consumers we do however need to be sure we know what we are purchasing. 
In the case of track it is misrepresented… Lumber now is a whole other game and there are very specific reasons some “studs” are not a full 96”. Chances are if you purchase a 2x4 that is less than 96" you probably grabbed from the precut stud pile and your length would only be 92 5/8”. Incase some on here did not know there is HUGE difference between purchasing a “precut stud” and a 2x4x8’ piece of lumber. Anyone who does not know, I’ll be happy to explain the difference but that is really more a simple and pretty common mistake of not knowing what you selected as opposed to something being marketed unfairly.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I certainly understand the issue of "pre cut studs" being shorter than 8', and I understand why, but that still doesn't account for the fact that when you buy a "2x4" you actually gat a 1-1/2x3-1/2.

Ed


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Perhaps it is the newness of some people to the hobby combined with the fact that they are probably buying via mail order rather than from a local hobby shop (I hear there still are a few out there) who could have advised them of the metric sizing.

For what it is worth my 1995 Aristo-Craft catalog lists: 
ART 11000 12IN./ 309 mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11060 24IN./ 610mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11070 36IN./ 914mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11090 60IN./ 1524mm. STRAIGHT TRACK

plus a 12 IN. CURVE TRACK and one each left and right switches.

By comparison there were 29 FA-1s and 25 FB-1s to choose from.

In 1996 the track had more than doubled and the above were shown as:
ART 11000 1 FT.30CM
ART 11060 2 FT.60CM
ART 11070 3 FT.90CM
ART 11090 5 FT.150CM

Obviously it could not have been both 1 foot and 30 centimeters so the dealer could have explained that it was 300 mm which would be close to 1 foot.

Also in 1996 more curves were added and listed as MED 5'; LG 8'; X-WIDE 10' and XX-WIDE 20'

By 1998 the metric numbers were dropped and eventually the MED; X-WIDE; and XX-WIDE were dropped.

Since Aristo-Craft is today selling track the exact same lengths as they did 10 years ago when metric numbers were printed in the catalog (and I think also on the old black track boxes) I think it is kind of silly to suggest that Aristo has some sort of ulterior motive and that somehow a refund is due.

I would be amazed if more than 99% of large scalers are not fully aware that Aristo-Craft (like LGB) uses metric sizing for their track.

By the same token I have never found my track software to ever come close enough so that I did not have to make some cuts to get my track to fit on anything beyond a simple oval.

In my opinion we are kicking a horse that has been dead for over 10 years.

Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I would agree with you about people that have been in the hobby for a while... there are LOTS of things that "we" learned the HARD way. But the newbie that has just seen a garden railway and got some addresses off the web, designed a layout and then ordered track is not going to be happy at all. Not everybody has the wherewithall to do that much research into track lengths... most of us are much to trusting (or is that just plain naive?) and assume that you will get what it says on the box when you plunks down your money.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They went from good documentation to bad. Remember the article on "quality fade"? 

No excuse to take accurate data, and slowly reduce it's accuracy, and then eliminate any accuracy altogether.. 

That is product improvement in reverse... quality fade in action. 

Regards, Greg


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

What an interesting Thread to whine and cry about. I guess I am just to darn senior and am use to things not being perfect. For curves, they can be tweaked with a Train-Li bender, I like to use all 5 ft/150 cm lengths and bend to what the lay of the land wants and not make the land match the track. This isn't a problem in just Trains but in all hobbies. And I like a bunch of them. I tell the young folks to think outside the box and make it work. Oh Well, I will crawl back in my lurking hole and see what else happens.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

*You got it Barry. I'm relatively new to this hobby, started in 2006. When I found out about the slight dimensional issue, I made adjustments in my design and went on with building my railroad. If they don't like AC track, then don't buy it. Quit complaining about life and enjoy it. Stop and smell the trains.................Jim*


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Marauderer on 02 Sep 2009 04:48 PM 
What an interesting Thread to whine and cry about. I guess I am just to darn senior and am use to things not being perfect. For curves, they can be tweaked with a Train-Li bender, I like to use all 5 ft/150 cm lengths and bend to what the lay of the land wants and not make the land match the track. This isn't a problem in just Trains but in all hobbies. And I like a bunch of them. I tell the young folks to think outside the box and make it work. Oh Well, I will crawl back in my lurking hole and see what else happens.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Marauderer on 02 Sep 2009 04:48 PM 
What an interesting Thread to whine and cry about. I guess I am just to darn senior and am use to things not being perfect. For curves, they can be tweaked with a Train-Li bender, I like to use all 5 ft/150 cm lengths and bend to what the lay of the land wants and not make the land match the track. This isn't a problem in just Trains but in all hobbies. And I like a bunch of them. I tell the young folks to think outside the box and make it work. Oh Well, I will crawl back in my lurking hole and see what else happens. 

HA HA HA


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By jmill24 on 02 Sep 2009 06:14 PM 
*You got it Barry. I'm relatively new to this hobby, started in 2006. When I found out about the slight dimensional issue, I made adjustments in my design and went on with building my railroad. If they don't like AC track, then don't buy it. Quit complaining about life and enjoy it. Stop and smell the trains.................Jim* 

Dam newbies, always got something to say........ he he he


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Marty you my hero.........


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

It must have something to do with 1:29 on gauge one track.... The rails are a little narrow.. and now a little short. hehe


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:14 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Marty you my hero.........



















Dear Marty and Nick. 

And Semper....









One does not make this hobby hard but simply "quite" ornate.... 

The devil is in the details and this forum proves all re the details. And now there is a train 101 class starting tomorrow AM @ a time near you. Figure out the details here... 

Thanks to Greg and Shad for sorting out my brower issues. Sorry Gents... I am back... 

My sincere apologies to Nick and Semper.... they are now sending profuse emails to management... 

GG


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 02 Sep 2009 07:53 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:14 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Marty you my hero.........



















Dear Marty and Nick. 

And Semper....









One does not make this hobby hard but simply "quite" ornate.... 

The devil is in the details and this forum proves all re the details. And now there is a train 101 class starting tomorrow AM @ a time near you. Figure out the details here... 

Thanks to Greg and Shad for sorting out my brower issues. Sorry Gents... I am back... 

My sincere apologies to Nick and Semper.... they are now sending profuse emails to management... 

GG 














OOOOOOOOOOOO here we go, the Wacko IS BACKO hehehe







Of course meant in the best way.............


Haaaaaaaaaaaa


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:59 PM 
Posted By GG on 02 Sep 2009 07:53 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:14 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Marty you my hero.........



















Dear Marty and Nick. 

And Semper....









One does not make this hobby hard but simply "quite" ornate.... 

The devil is in the details and this forum proves all re the details. And now there is a train 101 class starting tomorrow AM @ a time near you. Figure out the details here... 

Thanks to Greg and Shad for sorting out my brower issues. Sorry Gents... I am back... 

My sincere apologies to Nick and Semper.... they are now sending profuse emails to management... 

GG 














OOOOOOOOOOOO here we go, the Wacko IS BACKO hehehe







Of course meant in the best way.............


Haaaaaaaaaaaa













Proof positive..... COFFEE IS SPIKED. 

I rest my case. Chinese Lead at work here. 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

HE HE HE


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By eheading on 02 Sep 2009 03:13 PM 
I certainly understand the issue of "pre cut studs" being shorter than 8', and I understand why, but that still doesn't account for the fact that when you buy a "2x4" you actually gat a 1-1/2x3-1/2.

Ed


You can get full width and height 2x4's but they are rough cut, ever handle any? As an aid to construction wokers they recut with finer blades to remove the rough surfaces. They're called 2x4's because that's what they started with, before recutting and dressing the surface. If it's not rough it's undersize.


Why the mislabeling? Probably to 'help' the Americam consumer...like me... too old of a dog to visualise what a meter looks like, so they slapped on a nearest whole foot number, but they couldn't visualise a foot!


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Amen, Brother Marty!
It really demonstrates what's wrong with most online forums. Everyone loves to gripe about minor do-do yet are seldom to invest half that energy to give kudos to each other in their modeling and layout building endeavors.


-Brian


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By GG on 02 Sep 2009 08:39 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:59 PM 
Posted By GG on 02 Sep 2009 07:53 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02 Sep 2009 07:14 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 02 Sep 2009 03:29 PM 
woow, its been 3 pages since I last had time to check this thread. 
No wonder very few new people intter this hobby, everyone makes it SOOO hard... 
Back to working on the RR. 

Marty you my hero.........



















Dear Marty and Nick. 

And Semper....









One does not make this hobby hard but simply "quite" ornate.... 

The devil is in the details and this forum proves all re the details. And now there is a train 101 class starting tomorrow AM @ a time near you. Figure out the details here... 

Thanks to Greg and Shad for sorting out my brower issues. Sorry Gents... I am back... 

My sincere apologies to Nick and Semper.... they are now sending profuse emails to management... 

GG 














OOOOOOOOOOOO here we go, the Wacko IS BACKO hehehe







Of course meant in the best way.............


Haaaaaaaaaaaa













Proof positive..... COFFEE IS SPIKED. 

I rest my case. Chinese Lead at work here. 

gg


I just want a simple discussion, don’t put this thread on racism, I think most people talk in this thread are rational.
The earth is running, someone always put himself in a well.
Sorry for my poor English writing

Regards,
Gary


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 02 Sep 2009 04:27 PM 
Jerry, I would agree with you about people that have been in the hobby for a while... there are LOTS of things that "we" learned the HARD way. But the newbie that has just seen a garden railway and got some addresses off the web, designed a layout and then ordered track is not going to be happy at all. Not everybody has the wherewithall to do that much research into track lengths... most of us are much to trusting (or is that just plain naive?) and assume that you will get what it says on the box when you plunks down your money.

Yes, we are new but who can help !! We couldn't take a measurement with actual tracks before we were purchased by mail order. We are not in State and no local hobby shop selling G scale models. Then, we have to trust the diamention details on outside of boxes and advertisement on online catalogue. The main difficulty for us that we would not lay the tracks on the ground. We put all tracks on the portable facilities for show and storage. If the wrong diamention of tracks, we have to modifying alot works on facilities. Also, this is our simple discuss and share with others. Not the rule to claim anything.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By jmill24 on 02 Sep 2009 06:14 PM 
*You got it Barry. I'm relatively new to this hobby, started in 2006. When I found out about the slight dimensional issue, I made adjustments in my design and went on with building my railroad. If they don't like AC track, then don't buy it. Quit complaining about life and enjoy it. Stop and smell the trains.................Jim* 
We are also new too... But, our tracks usage is not same as your design. We put all tracks on portable facilities for show and storage. We couldn't measure any track before we had purchased. Thus, we have to trust all details outside the boxes and online catalogue. We are not claim anything... just would like to share what we found. This is a simple discussion. Don't smell trains lonely !!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 02 Sep 2009 04:14 PM 
Perhaps it is the newness of some people to the hobby combined with the fact that they are probably buying via mail order rather than from a local hobby shop (I hear there still are a few out there) who could have advised them of the metric sizing.

For what it is worth my 1995 Aristo-Craft catalog lists: 
ART 11000 12IN./ 309 mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11060 24IN./ 610mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11070 36IN./ 914mm. STRAIGHT TRACK
ART 11090 60IN./ 1524mm. STRAIGHT TRACK

plus a 12 IN. CURVE TRACK and one each left and right switches.

By comparison there were 29 FA-1s and 25 FB-1s to choose from.

In 1996 the track had more than doubled and the above were shown as:
ART 11000 1 FT.30CM
ART 11060 2 FT.60CM
ART 11070 3 FT.90CM
ART 11090 5 FT.150CM

Obviously it could not have been both 1 foot and 30 centimeters so the dealer could have explained that it was 300 mm which would be close to 1 foot.

Also in 1996 more curves were added and listed as MED 5'; LG 8'; X-WIDE 10' and XX-WIDE 20'

By 1998 the metric numbers were dropped and eventually the MED; X-WIDE; and XX-WIDE were dropped.

Since Aristo-Craft is today selling track the exact same lengths as they did 10 years ago when metric numbers were printed in the catalog (and I think also on the old black track boxes) I think it is kind of silly to suggest that Aristo has some sort of ulterior motive and that somehow a refund is due.

I would be amazed if more than 99% of large scalers are not fully aware that Aristo-Craft (like LGB) uses metric sizing for their track.

By the same token I have never found my track software to ever come close enough so that I did not have to make some cuts to get my track to fit on anything beyond a simple oval.

In my opinion we are kicking a horse that has been dead for over 10 years.

Jerry


Thanks Jerry ! These are useful data of straight tracks. You know, Gary had asked the same in another forum. Unfortunately, no one get back him before we bought some tracks.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By AlphardG on 03 Sep 2009 12:19 AM 
Thanks Jerry ! These are useful data of straight tracks. You know, Gary had asked the same in another forum. Unfortunately, no one get back him before we bought some tracks.


Hello AlphardG,

You are welcome. I think what people are trying to say is that garden railroading is a very inaccurate science and that they understand your frustration but it is important for the individual to avoid letting setbacks such as the track measurements getting in the way of your enjoyment of this hobby. If you take the hobby (and your participation in it) too seriously it is very easy to get frustrated and give up.

Printed information of almost every sort has been woefully inadequate from long before I got into this hobby. A designer may be in the USA, an engineer in Germany, production in China and the product sold in countries of a dozen languages.

In Gary's case the situation was made worse in that he bought 5' and 6' tracks. His measurements of the 5' track show it to be 1/8" short but the reality is that it is less than 1.5% short. If Gary had used 1 foot sections (300mm = 11.811") each section would have been slightly less than 1/5" short. It is very common to allow a slight gap between rails to allow for heat expansion and contraction (which is why most garden railroads do not have the track firmly attached but allow for expansion).

Even though Gary's track will be used for shows etc. if he stores his track and it gets hot in storage the expansion may damage his display if he firmly attaches all the rails.

As George mentioned "The curves aren't right either, at least the "8 foot" ones. They are really 46.26" radius or about 3.5" under 8 foot diameter. These follow the "R3" standard of LGB track which is 117.5 cm in radius."

When it comes to track it is always best to start with the track and work from the track rather than to plan around the track before you get it. I've laid something over 3,000 feet of track and it has never turned out exactly as I had planned it and most of my track is on a perfectly flat surface.

I would highly recommend Georges website for help of all kinds: http://trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips.html it has been my go to place since I got into this hobby.

Welcome to the hobby,

Jerry


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

After reading all of the replies to Gary's originating reply, it makes me wonder...
[*]How many of these 'pearls of wisdom' that have been expressed, are derived from 'foresight' as opposed to 'hindsight', and why is it that someone new is expected to have already discovered these things?[*]Just what percentage of the individuals involved in this facet of the hobby, do you actually believe are also on-line?[*]just what percentage of individuals new to large-scale garden railroading, do you believe have had an extensive background in model railroading in the smaller scales, as opposed to being totally new or having just a passing experience with it as a young person?[*]How much time and money has it cost Gary and his friend, because a business failed to have accurate descriptions of their products.[*]Why is it that, although it's the business that has the most to loose in the future sales of their product(s), it seems that they are the least concerned about providing accurate information about their products?[/list]


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 03 Sep 2009 06:42 AM 
Posted By AlphardG on 03 Sep 2009 12:19 AM 
Thanks Jerry ! These are useful data of straight tracks. You know, Gary had asked the same in another forum. Unfortunately, no one get back him before we bought some tracks.


Hello AlphardG,

You are welcome. I think what people are trying to say is that garden railroading is a very inaccurate science and that they understand your frustration but it is important for the individual to avoid letting setbacks such as the track measurements getting in the way of your enjoyment of this hobby. If you take the hobby (and your participation in it) too seriously it is very easy to get frustrated and give up.

Printed information of almost every sort has been woefully inadequate from long before I got into this hobby. A designer may be in the USA, an engineer in Germany, production in China and the product sold in countries of a dozen languages.

In Gary's case the situation was made worse in that he bought 5' and 6' tracks. His measurements of the 5' track show it to be 1/8" short but the reality is that it is less than 1.5% short. If Gary had used 1 foot sections (300mm = 11.811") each section would have been slightly less than 1/5" short. It is very common to allow a slight gap between rails to allow for heat expansion and contraction (which is why most garden railroads do not have the track firmly attached but allow for expansion).

Even though Gary's track will be used for shows etc. if he stores his track and it gets hot in storage the expansion may damage his display if he firmly attaches all the rails.

As George mentioned "The curves aren't right either, at least the "8 foot" ones. They are really 46.26" radius or about 3.5" under 8 foot diameter. These follow the "R3" standard of LGB track which is 117.5 cm in radius."

When it comes to track it is always best to start with the track and work from the track rather than to plan around the track before you get it. I've laid something over 3,000 feet of track and it has never turned out exactly as I had planned it and most of my track is on a perfectly flat surface.

I would highly recommend Georges website for help of all kinds: http://trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips.html it has been my go to place since I got into this hobby.

Welcome to the hobby,

Jerry


Dear Jerry,

Thank you very much for your quick respond. You are right, this is very easy get something of frustration if we take the hobby too seriously. I and Gary are fully understand. We announced the case of wrong measurement of tracks because we would like to share what we saw and found after we collected the tracks. I and Gary are partnership with one more friend Martin to form a model train club in Hong Kong. We shall have a portable show to going around Hong Kong.

We knew the manufacturer of models have need to co-ordinated many details with design, engineering and production in around the world. This is a difficult job as I am a factory owner of garment in China also. But, the manufacturer of models should do the best in quality assurance. If not, most of consumers will come back them for any complain or claim. I believe you could agree with my point.

I and Gary could get your opinion of tolarance for measurement. Thank you very much for your many hints. I would tell you that we have to cutting some aluminium rods and sheets for construction of four bridges. Each bridge has five feet long. We would avoid any derailment at the rail joins. So that we need to making sure the length of bridges and tracks in same. You know, the local hardware shop would charge us higher extra costing for re-cutting if we made a wrong length. As per my previous posted, we were really don't have chanced to took a measurement with actual tracks because we couldn't found its in local hobby shop. We had asked someone in other forum but no one help. So, we trust the diamention details outside the boxes and online catalogue.

Fortunately, we could hold the cutting of aluminium materials before all tracks arrival. For the curve tracks, we had hand made a rail bender to re-fixed the radius of curve. Gary may show some pictures in his upcoming post. Then, you could know what we are doing now. Except these four bridges, all tracks put on portable tables non-firmly. I believe its has enough space for tolarance fixing.

Thank you for your recommendation of visiting Georges website. Gary is usually visiting Georges website for getting any hint for our construction. They are so useful website. Once again, we would be pleased to listen any opinion from you after you see some upcoming pictures from Gary. Thank you very much for your great help.

My name is Tony. AlphardG is my car model as same as my head picture which is a 7-seats van from Toyota... Heeheehee 

Have an enjoyable time with our trains,
Tony


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 03 Sep 2009 09:58 AM 
After reading all of the replies to Gary's originating reply, it makes me wonder...
[*]How many of these 'pearls of wisdom' that have been expressed, are derived from 'foresight' as opposed to 'hindsight', and why is it that someone new is expected to have already discovered these things?[*]Just what percentage of the individuals involved in this facet of the hobby, do you actually believe are also on-line?[*]just what percentage of individuals new to large-scale garden railroading, do you believe have had an extensive background in model railroading in the smaller scales, as opposed to being totally new or having just a passing experience with it as a young person?[*]How much time and money has it cost Gary and his friend, because a business failed to have accurate descriptions of their products.[*]Why is it that, although it's the business that has the most to loose in the future sales of their product(s), it seems that they are the least concerned about providing accurate information about their products?[/list] 

Hi Steve,

I totally agree that posts such as Gary's are helpful to others who are also just discovering the hobby. 

The point I was/am trying to make is that for this hobby to survive and grow it must be a partnership between all the participants in the hobby including the manufacturers and the dealers as well as the customers. I think it is unfair to suggest that anyone (manufacturer, dealer or customer) is not doing their best to help the hobby as well as themselves. Certainly no manufacturer or dealer could expect to survive long if they intentionally provided inaccurate information or poor customer service. Of course it happens and we all have our personal horror stories but I have bought just about every brand of products from a wide assortment of dealers and while some give better customer service and others give better prices and others give higher quality products, when I look back with over a decade of experience I cannot honestly say that I got screwed by anyone. Even when I felt screwed at the time in looking back it was usually the case of my expecting the highest quality product and customer service at the price level of the lowest quality and customer service. As a retired salesman I should have known better but I often was dumb enough to expect someone selling one product to give me an honest evaluation of how their product compared to competitive products.

That does not mean that I will buy any product from any manufacturer or from any dealer it means that I have learned to adjust my buying habits to avoid those products and dealers that do not meet my expectations. At the same time there are hundreds if not thousands of happy customers for those same products and dealers I avoid so I accept that it is a natural part of this hobby.

My concern is the divisiveness that seems to be a part of this hobby (as with just about every hobby) where we tend to find the brand and dealer who meets our personal needs the best and we often tend to find fault with those manufacturers and dealers who have not met our expectations in the past.

I try to avoid getting into discussions about "which brand or dealer is the best (or worst)" because some folks have such extreme opinions that they dominate such topics and I don't feel the need to justify my personal choices to others.

Certainly Aristo-Craft would not be happy to discover that their new customers (Gary and Tony) are disappointed with their purchase of Aristo-Craft track and perhaps future production could be adjusted to resolve the problem for future customers. I am sure that Gary and Tony would still have bought the same track and been happier if they had known it was metric sized.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By AlphardG on 03 Sep 2009 10:02 AM 

Dear Jerry,


I and Gary could get your opinion of tolerance for measurement. Thank you very much for your many hints. I would tell you that we have to cutting some aluminium rods and sheets for construction of four bridges. Each bridge has five feet long. We would avoid any derailment at the rail joins. So that we need to making sure the length of bridges and tracks in same. You know, the local hardware shop would charge us higher extra costing for re-cutting if we made a wrong length. As per my previous posted, we were really don't have chanced to took a measurement with actual tracks because we couldn't found its in local hobby shop. We had asked someone in other forum but no one help. So, we trust the diamention details outside the boxes and online catalogue.



Hi Tony,

I did not know what your name was and it might be helpful in getting answers on the forums if you show your name rather than an alias (just my personal opinion).

You will also find helpful information at Greg's website at: http://www.elmassian.com/ and I am sure there are many other useful sites that others may suggest.

I think I can speak for everyone here on MLS when I say that it would be very interesting to hear a lot more about what you and Gary are doing in Hong Kong. You should not concern yourself with your fluency in English - or American; )

Regarding my suggestions on measuring tolerances I would feel that others would have a more qualified opinion in that I tend to do things on the spur of the moment so if laying track I just put it together and later if I discover a problem I address the situation. Almost all of my layout is simply laying flat on either outdoor carpeting (indoors and outside) or on composite decking so my track is free to move.

If there is anything specific I can help with feel free to contact me via email or I may be able to phone you inexpensively. Normally I simply say "this is what I did" with no recommendation to others to do it my way as many things I do are caused by my circumstances and may not be the best way to do things.

My best advice is to remember that having fun is what it is all about. If you are not having fun rethink what you are doing or trying to do.

Advice, no matter how good and well intentioned it is, may not be the advice you are looking for and need. Feel free to follow (or ignore) any advice that is contrary to what you think you want to do because the person giving the advice may have a totally different approach to the hobby from you.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Funny you should say that, Jerry!

I hope it's ok, but I added the information you presented to my site: (as long as you don't mind!)

It's on the Track and Rail material page:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-94* 


This page is still under construction, but the Aristo section (after the tables) is pretty up to date, and has Jerry's information.

Regards, Greg


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 03 Sep 2009 11:39 AM 
{snip...}[/i] I think it is unfair to suggest that anyone (manufacturer, dealer or customer) is not doing their best to help the hobby as well as themselves. {snip...}[/i]
Jerry

How can it be unfair, when from the examples you yourself provided (i.e. 1995, 1996, & 1998 catalogs), shows a conscious effort to reduce the accuracy of the product description, where by the 1998 catalog you state that the metric dimensions had been totally dropped.

Although, from your example it seems that the 1996 catalog was more accurate (i.e. 1 ft. (30 cm)) than the 1995 catalog (i.e. 1 ft. (309 mm)). Since 1 ft. equals 304.8 mm or 30.48 cm.









Additionally, as you state they have more than likely been selling the exact same thing the whole time re: 1500 mm (59.033 in.) for a 5 ft. nominal section of track. Then from the measurement shown in Gary's picture the rail actually is longer than the 150 cm (i.e. 1500 mm) indicated on the tape measure. So if the packaging and catalog listings were labeled 5 ft. nom. (150 cm) or maybe 5 ft. nom. (1500 mm), then many misunderstandings could be avoided, and there would be less chance of someone feeling that they've been short changed.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Sep 2009 01:10 PM 
Funny you should say that, Jerry!

I hope it's ok, but I added the information you presented to my site: (as long as you don't mind!)




Hi Greg,

You are more than welcome to use the information I posted. I've been accused in the past of writing a book because of all the questions I've asked but that would be too much work and I am quite happy for others to accumulate and organize the information. Besides, with my poor memory I have usually forgotten what I said.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 03 Sep 2009 02:09 PM Jerry

How can it be unfair, when from the examples you yourself provided (i.e. 1995, 1996, & 1998 catalogs), shows a conscious effort to reduce the accuracy of the product description, where by the 1998 catalog you state that the metric dimensions had been totally dropped.

Although, from your example it seems that the 1996 catalog was more accurate (i.e. 1 ft. (30 cm)) than the 1995 catalog (i.e. 1 ft. (309 mm)). Since 1 ft. equals 304.8 mm or 30.48 cm.









Additionally, as you state they have more than likely been selling the exact same thing the whole time re: 1500 mm (59.033 in.) for a 5 ft. nominal section of track. Then from the measurement shown in Gary's picture the rail actually is longer than the 150 cm (i.e. 1500 mm) indicated on the tape measure. So if the packaging and catalog listings were labeled 5 ft. nom. (150 cm) or maybe 5 ft. nom. (1500 mm), then many misunderstandings could be avoided, and there would be less chance of someone feeling that they've been short changed.


Hi Steve,

I just stated my opinion and obviously you have a different opinion which is perfectly OK.

It would seem unlikely to me that any effort would have been made to intentionally make the information less accurate. I would suspect that the change was made to have the packaging appear less confusing to the customer which perhaps may not have been the best choice to have made. Less printing may have allowed for larger type which may have been helpful to older customers like me who may not have been wearing their glasses while shopping.

The simple solution is for folks who want to see the packaging changed to voice their opinions to Aristo-Craft and I am sure that if enough folks request the change that it will be made. Certainly this topic will have highlighted the issue for many prospective buyers of any brand of metric sized track.

Regards,

Jerry


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, if you have any more data on the actual curve diameters in metric, please let me know, might as well document the information for people somewhere! 

Thanks, 

Greg


----------



## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Sep 2009 01:10 PM 
Funny you should say that, Jerry!

I hope it's ok, but I added the information you presented to my site: (as long as you don't mind!)

It's on the Track and Rail material page:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...ainmenu-94* 


This page is still under construction, but the Aristo section (after the tables) is pretty up to date, and has Jerry's information.

Regards, Greg 



Hi, Greg
Thank you for your great website. I have checked its and found many useful hints.
Tony (AlphardG)


----------



## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 03 Sep 2009 12:07 PM 

Hi Tony, 
I did not know what your name was and it might be helpful in getting answers on the forums if you show your name rather than an alias (just my personal opinion).

You will also find helpful information at Greg's website at: http://www.elmassian.com/ and I am sure there are many other useful sites that others may suggest.

I think I can speak for everyone here on MLS when I say that it would be very interesting to hear a lot more about what you and Gary are doing in Hong Kong. You should not concern yourself with your fluency in English - or American; )

Regarding my suggestions on measuring tolerances I would feel that others would have a more qualified opinion in that I tend to do things on the spur of the moment so if laying track I just put it together and later if I discover a problem I address the situation. Almost all of my layout is simply laying flat on either outdoor carpeting (indoors and outside) or on composite decking so my track is free to move.

If there is anything specific I can help with feel free to contact me via email or I may be able to phone you inexpensively. Normally I simply say "this is what I did" with no recommendation to others to do it my way as many things I do are caused by my circumstances and may not be the best way to do things.

My best advice is to remember that having fun is what it is all about. If you are not having fun rethink what you are doing or trying to do.

Advice, no matter how good and well intentioned it is, may not be the advice you are looking for and need. Feel free to follow (or ignore) any advice that is contrary to what you think you want to do because the person giving the advice may have a totally different approach to the hobby from you.

Regards,

Jerry


Hi, Jerry

I have re-sign in a new account with my name Tony. So sorry for my nickname in the beginning. I would be so happy to know a friend as you on this forum.

Once again, thank you very much for your great help and backup. I should let you know if we face to any problem of laying tracks which we couldn't solve. You are welcome to calling me if under the lower cost. If you are not mind, I am also happy to calling you as your convenience. I would email you my contact number.

I know Gary is so busy on his work on today. I believe he will post some pictures soon. Let me post one picture first. You could see how we set up the facilities.










This is our testing of laying the curve tracks. The curve tracks are in 16.5' and 20' diameter. At last week, we had modified the curve tracks of 16.5' diameter to 19' diameter which could made the distance between two circles were more closed. Jerry...this is what we are making now.


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Good morning Jerry, SteveC, Greg, and all

Very happy to seeing a rational reply, honestly, I have never complain AC track, I just want to have a simple discussion with you all G scale folks, Also, I always visit Georges’s and Greg’s website, they are so great!!!! I can learn more thing of G scale in there. I need to thank you them.








Show you something about our Model Railroad Club “HKBTS” in Hong Kong.
Regards,
Gary 
This is our HO model exhibition in different shopping mall in the pass summer
After these show, many shopping mall are interesting in large scale train, after a discussion with our partner, we decided to start our BTS project.
We are setting up the train model.

















The another train show in APM, this show is work together with Japan Model Railway Association.

















Our club members are constructing the portable table for large scale train, we already done around sixty units.


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

This is my scratch build rail bender. The distance between the bearings is base on the 20 feet curve rail with a slightly adjustment.
























See, the right side curve track is 16.5 feet and the middle is 19 feet and the left side is 20 feet, I am satisfy to the result.









We are bending the another 16.5 feet curve tracks to 19 feet, it need 20 units of 16.5 feet curve tracks section to form a 19 feet circle.
























Guy, please see the curve track on the floor, the 19feet curve is well fit to parallel the 20 feet curve tracks.
















Tony is testing the 20 feet S curve tracks with his AristoCraft 40’ box cars.
















Hope you all enjoy those photos.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I think it is neat that you guys make due with what you have on hand, that is modeling!!

Great job by the way.

tom h


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for sharing the photos! Much inspiration there! Love the home built rail bender too! I see the cross bracing side to side but what about lengthwise? Any provision for that? Looking forward to the curved solution too! 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary, I assume after bending, you do not try to put the screws from the tie back to the rail? 

Great effort! Is that an office building you have the trains running through? 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Gary Does you supervisior know your running trains through the office


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Inter-office memos now come by train! Cool idea! 

Greg


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi, Greg and John as well as Tom 

We were tested the S curve in my office, not Gary office. If not, I believe his supervisior will.... heeheehee. 

I would let you know that one box of curve tracks in 16.5' diameter had 18 pieces. But, one circle need 16 pieces. It seen AC would like to sold 2 more extra pieces per box. Fortunately, we could use these 2 extra pieces tracks after we had bended the curve radius to 19' diameter. This is just made ! Not need to order any more curve tracks for shorten tolarance. But, so surprise that Aristo Craft could expect any modeller will re-bend the curve tracks to 19' diameter !! 

We are preparing to constructing four aluminium bridges. We shall post any picture once available. 

Once again, thank you very much for your supporting. 
Have a nice Friday and weekend, 
Tony


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Gary To on 04 Sep 2009 03:55 AM 
Good morning Jerry, SteveC, Greg, and all

Very happy to seeing a rational reply, honestly, I have never complain AC track, I just want to have a simple discussion with you all G scale folks, Also, I always visit Georges’s and Greg’s website, they are so great!!!! I can learn more thing of G scale in there. I need to thank you them.








Show you something about our Model Railroad Club “HKBTS” in Hong Kong.
Regards,
Gary 





Hi Gary,

Those are some great photos. I am sure that I can speak for others when I suggest the if you have time to post some information about how you do what you are doing that it would be greatly appreciated by fellow MLSers.

It would also be interesting to hear about your fellow club members and club activities.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Sep 2009 09:32 PM 
Jerry, if you have any more data on the actual curve diameters in metric, please let me know, might as well document the information for people somewhere! 

Thanks, 

Greg 
Hi Greg,

If I run across any additional information I will forward it to you but I should say that I would be quite cautious about published curve specifications by any vendors unless and until the dimensions have been confirmed by someone who has actually measured them. It is also possible that some specifications have been changed by some manufacturers as LGB had become less of the dominant player in the market when everyone was matching what LGB did.

I don't have specific facts to back this up - just some personal experiences that left me questioning some things.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 03 Sep 2009 10:54 PM 


Hi, Jerry 
I have re-sign in a new account with my name Tony. So sorry for my nickname in the beginning. I would be so happy to know a friend as you on this forum.

Once again, thank you very much for your great help and backup. I should let you know if we face to any problem of laying tracks which we couldn't solve. You are welcome to calling me if under the lower cost. If you are not mind, I am also happy to calling you as your convenience. I would email you my contact number. 


Hi Tony,

There is nothing wrong with using an alias other than a name lets us (me at least) know something about the person I am communicating with. Some people are hesitant to publish anything about themselves on the internet but that kind of makes communications impersonal (in my opinion).

I received your email and sent you my phone number. 

The information you and Gary have posted is amazing.

Jerry


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi, Jerry

Thank you very much for your message and calling. Enclosed, I would show you the track layout as follow picture. The part numbers are not all exactly same but the plan is true.


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm a little late to this thread, so I hope I'm posting something relevant. It was a little hard picking this up in mid-stream!

The information in the following chart was provided by Dave Buffington when he was representing LGB. To the extent that Aristo states that their track is identical to LGB, it should apply there as well.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

What Stan failed to mention is that he makes some very useful tools for large scalers:

http://www.stanstrains.com/Software.htm

My personal favorite is his Handy Converter:

http://www.stanstrains.com/SoftwareHandyConverter.htm

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 04 Sep 2009 09:40 PM 
Hi, Jerry

Thank you very much for your message and calling. Enclosed, I would show you the track layout as follow picture. The part numbers are not all exactly same but the plan is true.


Hi Tony it was fun talking with you and interesting to hear about you, Gary and your club building a portable layout in Hong Kong. 

It is amazing to me that your track etc. is made in China yet you have to buy it after it has been shipped to the USA and then have it reshipped to Hong Kong.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Tony and Gary, 
Excellent adapting to get what you wanted. 

A note about track configuration; We generally try to have a straight section (equal to your longest piece of rolling stock) between reverse curves. While I suspect that your operations will all be forward running, backing through a reverse curve can be tricky. 
This is a warning for what could happen, not a guarantee that it will. 

I really liked the floor graphics at your train displays, show carts with wheels on printed track, very nice. The field stone around the central operating display gave the effect of being in the garden... All very nice touches! 

Regarding Jerry's Opinion on nicknames; my security advisor recommends their use. If Jerry needs my real name he can easily ask for it and I would give it, if I saw the need. 
Too bad Jerry can't adapt to our style and suggests we adapt to his.... 
Anybody can gain access to these pages, not just fellow modelers. So if Jerry wants to tell the world he has a wall of trains and where he lives, that's his business... Personally I'm glad I have an address that even UPS can't always find, as I leave my cars out on the track, engines come inside. 

John C. 

John


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 05 Sep 2009 07:23 AM 
What Stan failed to mention is that he makes some very useful tools for large scalers:

http://www.stanstrains.com/Software.htm

My personal favorite is his Handy Converter:

http://www.stanstrains.com/SoftwareHandyConverter.htm

Jerry





Thanks Jerry, I just ordered the handy converter. Make my day. And finally, where can one get a "willi" Kit?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05 Sep 2009 09:14 AM 
Tony and Gary, 
Excellent adapting to get what you wanted. 

A note about track configuration; We generally try to have a straight section (equal to your longest piece of rolling stock) between reverse curves. While I suspect that your operations will all be forward running, backing through a reverse curve can be tricky. 
This is a warning for what could happen, not a guarantee that it will. 

I really liked the floor graphics at your train displays, show carts with wheels on printed track, very nice. The field stone around the central operating display gave the effect of being in the garden... All very nice touches! 

Regarding Jerry's Opinion on nicknames; my security advisor recommends their use. If Jerry needs my real name he can easily ask for it and I would give it, if I saw the need. 
Too bad Jerry can't adapt to our style and suggests we adapt to his.... 
Anybody can gain access to these pages, not just fellow modelers. So if Jerry wants to tell the world he has a wall of trains and where he lives, that's his business... Personally I'm glad I have an address that even UPS can't always find, as I leave my cars out on the track, engines come inside. 

John C. 

John 
Hi John,

As I said "There is nothing wrong with using an alias other than a name lets us (me at least) know something about the person I am communicating with. Some people are hesitant to publish anything about themselves on the internet but that kind of makes communications impersonal (in my opinion)."

Your comment "Too bad Jerry can't adapt to our style and suggests we adapt to his.... " is not quite accurate. It is never my intention to convince anyone to do anything. My only point was and is that sometimes people are more likely to respond to a name than to an alias.

Actually there is a second point in that some forums prohibit use of aliases at least in part to legitimize who a person is when critical comments are posted (the accused is entitled to know who the accuser is).

This is not my website and I am not a moderator. I speak with no authority and for no one other than myself.

I respect your choice and right to use an alias on this forum.

Jerry

ps You made a good point regarding reverse curves. I have had to use some and there are occasional derailments at them.


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05 Sep 2009 09:14 AM 
Tony and Gary, 
Excellent adapting to get what you wanted. 

A note about track configuration; We generally try to have a straight section (equal to your longest piece of rolling stock) between reverse curves. While I suspect that your operations will all be forward running, backing through a reverse curve can be tricky. 
This is a warning for what could happen, not a guarantee that it will. 

I really liked the floor graphics at your train displays, show carts with wheels on printed track, very nice. The field stone around the central operating display gave the effect of being in the garden... All very nice touches! 

Regarding Jerry's Opinion on nicknames; my security advisor recommends their use. If Jerry needs my real name he can easily ask for it and I would give it, if I saw the need. 
Too bad Jerry can't adapt to our style and suggests we adapt to his.... 
Anybody can gain access to these pages, not just fellow modelers. So if Jerry wants to tell the world he has a wall of trains and where he lives, that's his business... Personally I'm glad I have an address that even UPS can't always find, as I leave my cars out on the track, engines come inside. 

John C. 

John 

Good morning John,
Thanks for the nice comment on our work, I am not quite understanding the point of "backing through a reverse curve can be tricky", would you tell me more about this.









Regards,
Gary


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Morning Gary, 
Reverse curves... because our cars are lighter(in scale than real RR's) they tend to climb the rails when being pushed one way and the wheels must go the opposit way. Less resitance to go up and over than to follow the track. Different dynamics in backing up; the cars get bunched together and the forces aren't centered above the center of the track, when a car reveses it's turning direction the back up force is directed towards a corner of the car. Truck mounted couplers add to the effect. Hope this helps. 

Others have noted problems coupling cars together along those sections as the car bodies aren't in line. 

John


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 05 Sep 2009 07:30 AM 
Posted By TonyLou on 04 Sep 2009 09:40 PM 
Hi, Jerry

Thank you very much for your message and calling. Enclosed, I would show you the track layout as follow picture. The part numbers are not all exactly same but the plan is true.


Hi Tony it was fun talking with you and interesting to hear about you, Gary and your club building a portable layout in Hong Kong. 

It is amazing to me that your track etc. is made in China yet you have to buy it after it has been shipped to the USA and then have it reshipped to Hong Kong.

Regards,

Jerry
Hey Jerry,
We were surprised that you gave us a call yesterday,we are glad to known you Jerry, if you have time, share us something about your railroad. 
Regards,
Gary


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 10:00 AM 
Morning Gary, 
Reverse curves... because our cars are lighter(in scale than real RR's) they tend to climb the rails when being pushed one way and the wheels must go the opposit way. Less resitance to go up and over than to follow the track. Different dynamics in backing up; the cars get bunched together and the forces aren't centered above the center of the track, when a car reveses it's turning direction the back up force is directed towards a corner of the car. Truck mounted couplers add to the effect. Hope this helps. 

Others have noted problems coupling cars together along those sections as the car bodies aren't in line. 

John 
Hi John,
Good explanation, I get your meaning, let me discuss with my partner Tony.
Gary


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Morning Jerry, 
Click on my nickname, click on 'info' and my real name and city/state are there for your viewing pleasure. Why does it have to be where anybody on the net can see it? 

Many times when I've googled a garden railway question I get an MLS page, no membership required, for all he world to see. Personally I think you are a tad naive to be advertising your wealth! 

Remember that break in during a show when somebody cleaned a guy out? Colorado I think. People said it must have been somebody that knew him and that he had those trains. I have a feeling it was somebody that used the boards to get that info and also his plans to be at a show. Going to Marty's? lol 

Seems like there are several of us here with nick's, some quite popular and people reply to them all the time. I don't get your point. Besides we don't have accusers here, just spirited opinions! 

By your reasoning as Totalwrecker... I'm not legit? I think you know what I think you can do with that! 
Some of my stupid comments may have earned that, but I'm geting better .... lol 


John C


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Click on my nickname, click on 'info' and my real name and city/state are there for your viewing pleasure. Why does it have to be where anybody on the net can see it?
John 
Regarding your above statement, click my 'User Name' (SteveC) and tell me if you see an 'Info' link option on the profile page displayed, what you see and what others see when looking at your 'User Profile' depends.

Unless you find an individual (e.g. Jerry) listed in the 'My Friends' area (i.e. left side, just below the 'About Me') on your profile, then when they view your 'User Profile' they will not see the 'Info' link.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You are welcome, my friend. 

We will always be happy to help, but use your 'common sense' as not all replies are completely correct, though they meant well. Few of us are experts and most can only offer what we've learned through trial and error. 

We do have some experts and I'm amazed at all the free help they give, you have found a good group to join. 

Regarding to newly rebent rail. You can saw the rails where you need them to end (at the box ends) and then use rail clamps to reconnect them for shows. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SteveC on 06 Sep 2009 10:36 AM 
Click on my nickname, click on 'info' and my real name and city/state are there for your viewing pleasure. Why does it have to be where anybody on the net can see it?
John 
Regarding your above statement, click my 'User Name' (SteveC) and tell me if you see an 'Info' link option on the profile page displayed, what you see and what others see when looking at your 'User Profile' depends.



Ohhhhhh.....!

I should know better than to assume eh?

Is that only for me and staff?
eh? Depends on what, if you please.

OK I'll retract that statement. 

I got a warm fuzzy knowing it's hidden!
Just ask and if I like you I'll tell you, ok? You too Jerry. 
John C*****y we're getting closer! A silly old goat on a Sunday morning.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 10:58 AM 
{snip...}[/i] Depends on what, if you please. {snip...}[/i] John

Sorry, it seems that I updated my previous reply after you had already read it. The following from my previous reply.

Unless you find an individual (e.g. Jerry) listed in the 'My Friends' area (i.e. left side, just below the 'About Me') on your profile, then when they view your 'User Profile' they will not see the 'Info' link.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I think I get it; Make a friend and share details. 
Thanks. 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 03:36 PM 
I think I get it; Make a friend and share details. 
Thanks. 

John Got'a make that nail head much smaller, you're getting to good.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 10:30 AM 
Morning Jerry, 

Personally I think you are a tad naive to be advertising your wealth!


By your reasoning as Totalwrecker... I'm not legit? I think you know what I think you can do with that!,

Hello John,

My comments were meant as generalities. I know nothing about you and nothing was directed to you or to anyone else. I apologize if you thought my comments were personal - they were not.

I am certainly not wealthy. I simply spend a high percentage of my retirement income on trains and drive old cars where others may spend their money on other things. I seldom ever go anywhere and when I do there is always someone here. Around here neighbors look after neighbors and when my neighbor's burglar alarm goes off I am there LONG before the deputy arrives. When the deputy arrives he knows I will be there and I will be armed. I also happen to be an Arkansas Licensed Concealed Handgun Instructor. Around here law enforcement officers appreciate armed homeowners - we make their job easier.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Gary To on 06 Sep 2009 10:05 AM Hey Jerry,
We were surprised that you gave us a call yesterday,we are glad to known you Jerry, if you have time, share us something about your railroad. 
Regards,
Gary



Hi Gary,

I enjoyed talking with Tony and I have enjoyed the information you have posted here on MLS.

My primary layout runs mostly in the crawl space under my house and then down to a lower yard in the crawl space to an opening in the wall of the house where it runs into the garage where there are over and under yards then outside where there are now two mainlines with reverse loops and a freight yard. 










This diagram is several years old. Since then I replaced all the outside track with Aristo stainless steel and LGB nickel plated switches.

The picture is somewhat confusing because there are over and under yards both in the crawl space and in the garage.

There are a bit over 150 electric LGB switches on the above layout. 

Normally I run straight analog track power plus I have the layout wired to flip to MTS/DCC or DCS and I now have the Aristo-Craft Revolution on order. I like to try the various power options including live steam and battery but so far I keep coming back to plain track power.

I don't have a web site or an organized photo collection as things are usually going through one change or another.

Originally I did not have a specific focus to the layout but more recently I have started to focus on the trains that have run through Arkansas which are primarily Missouri Pacific, Cotton Belt (St. Louis & Southwestern - part of Missouri Pacific) and Union Pacific.

My wife named the layout The Lonoke and El Paso Railway (after a stage coach line that used to run in part on what is now our lower driveway) but I tend to call it The Plastic, Plywood and Carpet Railway since it is plastic trains running on green outdoor carpeting laid on plywood.

The layout does not photograph well since it runs mostly in our dark crawl space but I especially like it there because it is dark 24 hours and I can control the lighting to simulate any part of the day or night.

Regards,

Jerry


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

That is an awesome railroad, Jerry!! Thanks for sharing the layout plan and telling us about it!

Ed


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Awesome, 

I have a long way to go. 

Nice to learn from the masters. 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Dam Jerry, i bow to the master







great layout... and i dont just bow to anyone he he he


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 06 Sep 2009 05:19 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 10:30 AM 
Morning Jerry, 

Personally I think you are a tad naive to be advertising your wealth!


By your reasoning as Totalwrecker... I'm not legit? I think you know what I think you can do with that!,

Hello John,

My comments were meant as generalities. I know nothing about you and nothing was directed to you or to anyone else. I apologize if you thought my comments were personal - they were not.

I am certainly not wealthy. I simply spend a high percentage of my retirement income on trains and drive old cars where others may spend their money on other things. I seldom ever go anywhere and when I do there is always someone here. Around here neighbors look after neighbors and when my neighbor's burglar alarm goes off I am there LONG before the deputy arrives. When the deputy arrives he knows I will be there and I will be armed. I also happen to be an Arkansas Licensed Concealed Handgun Instructor. Around here law enforcement officers appreciate armed homeowners - we make their job easier.

Jerry

Jerry,

I was trying to keep it light.

It has been my general observation that people are too trusting of strangers on the internet. I have made great friends, but also have encountered some I would never want to know...

Wealth is a matter of perspective, train wise you are wealthy compared to my 2 trains and almost 200 feet of track. On a train forum.... well I think you see why I'm concerned. Besides I didn't mean to imply that you are wealthy, just that you have train wealth. Can be a big difference eh?

I'm glad you have good security... I do too, am armed and Az laws support defending one's home... Don't need a burglar alarm at the end of this road! People know they're lost by the time they're faced with the Hill! 'Can I get back up that thing?' They turn around...

It was perhaps your choice of words ... to paraphrase; A Given name legitimzes.... thus the opposit is:? 

Now I'm soryr this has gone on so long... fini

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

Regarding my layout I should mention that it was never planned to turn out the way that it has.

It all just sort of developed over the years and in the process I ended up breaking just about all the rules of how to do things because I ran into obstacles such as brick walls that forced me to include things like sharp curves, steep ramps and reverse loops. Most was bought used or on closeout sales where price was more important than railroad names. It was also built over a dozen years for years of which I was a traveling salesman able to visit train stores over 5 states looking for new and used bargains. Some of it came from estate sales where I ended up with things I would have never elected to buy but that was included in the package and then I had to find somewhere to use it.

Jerry


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 07 Sep 2009 06:19 AM 
Hi Everyone,

Regarding my layout I should mention that it was never planned to turn out the way that it has.

It all just sort of developed over the years and in the process I ended up breaking just about all the rules of how to do things because I ran into obstacles such as brick walls that forced me to include things like sharp curves, steep ramps and reverse loops. Most was bought used or on closeout sales where price was more important than railroad names. It was also built over a dozen years for years of which I was a traveling salesman able to visit train stores over 5 states looking for new and used bargains. Some of it came from estate sales where I ended up with things I would have never elected to buy but that was included in the package and then I had to find somewhere to use it.

Jerry
Morning Jerry,
I can't imagine that you have a huge layout with 150 electric switches, it let me crazy







, In Hong Kong, you paid two hundred thousand USD just ony can buy a 500 square feet apartment, so , it is not easy to found a place to build up a personal G scale layout, from the begining, I only do some detailing work and display track for my G scale engines, anyway, glad to seeing your layout configure







Gary


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 07 Sep 2009 06:19 AM 
Hi Everyone,

Regarding my layout I should mention that it was never planned to turn out the way that it has.

It all just sort of developed over the years and in the process I ended up breaking just about all the rules of how to do things because I ran into obstacles such as brick walls that forced me to include things like sharp curves, steep ramps and reverse loops. Most was bought used or on closeout sales where price was more important than railroad names. It was also built over a dozen years for years of which I was a traveling salesman able to visit train stores over 5 states looking for new and used bargains. Some of it came from estate sales where I ended up with things I would have never elected to buy but that was included in the package and then I had to find somewhere to use it.

Jerry


Hi, Jerry

Thank you very much for sharing your layout track plan. This is so huge. Very impressive mainlines ! If one day I could go your state, I should visit you and see how your operation of your layout. You made me to called out my dream... I really want to have a small garden in home and laying some tracks for trains. Also, my wife could plant some flowers beside. This is the perfect garden which I want. Thank you very much.

Tony


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Gary To on 07 Sep 2009 08:12 AM Morning Jerry,
I can't imagine that you have a huge layout with 150 electric switches, it let me crazy







, In Hong Kong, you paid two hundred thousand USD just ony can buy a 500 square feet apartment, so , it is not easy to found a place to build up a personal G scale layout, from the begining, I only do some detailing work and display track for my G scale engines, anyway, glad to seeing your layout configure







Gary


Hi Gary,

Your post highlights what I was saying. For considerably less than half of the cost of that 500 square foot apartment we bought this house 20 years ago including 7 acres of land (mostly woods) adjacent to 35 acres of additional woods we have exclusive access to. The balance would be equal to more than the value of all of our vehicles, other assets and my train layouts combined.

I was raised in Chicago and my wife was raised in London (England). Many years ago we decided that we preferred the rural life of Arkansas so we moved here and gave up "the city life." 

My brother was the opposite. He lived most of his life in New York (the Bronx) and retired as Assistant Principal of a high school. During his life he never married, only owned one car, never owned an apartment or home of any sort or had any hobbies I know of. When he became terminally ill we brought him to Arkansas which he totally hated even though he had wonderful care at the nursing home he soon needed. When he died there was nothing to dispose of - but he would never have traded his life in New York for mine in Arkansas nor me for his.

Last fall we bought a Missouri Pacific Caboose from the local school district. Most folks think we are crazy but for $3,165 we added an additional 250 square feet for a den, workspace, wildlife watching etc. I can easily go a month without ever leaving here for anything since my wife still works and she brings the groceries home.

To be honest (and I really mean it) I cannot say that a large layout is much more fun than a small layout After all I can only run one or two trains at a time or else something is going to get broken soon.

I have spent far more time building my layouts than I have spent running trains on them. Perhaps there is a message in there somewhere.

Regards,

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Jerry 

I too was born and raised near Chicago. Blue Island to be exact. I had never been away from the city at all. I went into the Air Force and ended up in Mountian Home Idaho. I had never camped Fished Hunted or anything After 4 years in Idaho 1965 to 69 I can NOT stand Cities. I am on 2,5 acers. I hate that high density housing.

The were paying 350 K for a house in Anthem.

I got my place for less then 100K 

Yea I love the Sticks









PS Jerry are you coming to Marty's? It is only 18 days away


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 07 Sep 2009 10:18 AM 
Hi, Jerry 
Thank you very much for sharing your layout track plan. This is so huge. Very impressive mainlines ! If one day I could go your state, I should visit you and see how your operation of your layout. You made me to called out my dream... I really want to have a small garden in home and laying some tracks for trains. Also, my wife could plant some flowers beside. This is the perfect garden which I want. Thank you very much.

Tony


Hi Tony,

You and Gary (and other MLSers) are always welcome to come and visit. Once I get the camper setup complete we will even have a place for visitors to stay overnight if they like.

You mentioned that you go to Los Angeles and another city (San Francisco?) every year or so. I am sure that there are a lot of MLSers in those areas who would enjoy showing you around some of the layouts there.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 08 Sep 2009 09:47 AM 
Hey Jerry 

I too was born and raised near Chicago. Blue Island to be exact. I had never been away from the city at all. I went into the Air Force and ended up in Mountian Home Idaho. I had never camped Fished Hunted or anything After 4 years in Idaho 1965 to 69 I can NOT stand Cities. I am on 2,5 acers. I hate that high density housing.

The were paying 350 K for a house in Anthem.

I got my place for less then 100K 

Yea I love the Sticks









PS Jerry are you coming to Marty's? It is only 18 days away 


Hi JJ,

It sounds like you went into the USAF when I got out. I enlisted in 1961, spent 3 years at RAF Alconbury in England where I met my future wife and got out in 1965.

Since we moved to Arkansas I've been in a tree with a bear below, frog gigged and hunted snakes in swamps and would never want to live in a place where neighbors felt a need to call the police when they hear the occasional gunfire from here. 

Just this week I've seen more wildlife and birds than I would have seen in a lifetime in Chicago. Sometimes critters make better neighbors than some people.

I'll be the guy driving Bubba's Hudson (again).

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Sep 2009 10:30 AM 
Morning Jerry, 

Many times when I've googled a garden railway question I get an MLS page, no membership required, for all he world to see. Personally I think you are a tad naive to be advertising your wealth! 

Remember that break in during a show when somebody cleaned a guy out? Colorado I think. People said it must have been somebody that knew him and that he had those trains. I have a feeling it was somebody that used the boards to get that info and also his plans to be at a show. Going to Marty's? lol 


"Going to Marty's? lol"

For someone who prides himself on his awareness of Internet security (and uses an alias to protect himself) is it not irresponsible and malicious for you to find it amusing to focus attention on a fellow MLSer who may be away from home and potentially vulnerable to burglars? 

I an NOT Laughing Out Loud (lol) and I do not appreciate your "humor" in the slightest. I had asked the moderators to delete your comments but as they have not I am addressing them directly. 

As it turns out my wife's cousin will be going into hospital in England so she will go there to be with her. I will stay home not go to Marty's.

I would suggest that your comments are a perfect example of what MLSers SHOULD NEVER DO because they could jeopardize a fellow MLSers security. With "friends" like you I certainly do not need enemies.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 14 Sep 2009 09:30 AM 

It was a week ago, but now you have renewed your anger







A week ago I was still planning to go to Marty's so I did not say anything to avoid further highlighting the issue. Now that my plans have changed and I do not plan to go to Marty's I feel free to say now what I wanted to say then.

My comments that you took offense at (I still don't understand how you found them offensive) were addressed to Tony and had nothing to do with you. Your comments were addressed to me personally so that qualifies me as the person to decide how I feel about them. "LOL" had a LOT to do with how I interpreted your comments.

You have had your say and I have had mine. Perhaps the difference is that I tried to understand your viewpoint and you have made no effort to understand mine.

Now if you like we can "put this frayed bit of thread to bed."

Jerry


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