# Are you wary of Li-Po batteries?



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

You should be!!!!!!!
https://au.prime7.yahoo.com/n1/video/-/watch/28683777/fire-gutts-hobby-shop/ 
Sadly you have to watch the ad.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

They sell inexpensive fireproof bags specifically made to hold and enclose your battery when you charge it. That's what I use. One could also use a small metal can or pot with a lid. Li-Pos do require adequate respect.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I never heard of Li-Po batteries before but out of curiosity I searched and ran across this article:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-LiPo-Which-better-or-are-they-just-different

It seems to explain it pretty well (to me anyway).


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OMG! run for the hills. All of your electronic equipment is going to blow up at any time.

..... later, in another universe....

yawn, yes we know you hate lithium batteries Tony.... and you can make anything dangerous with poor equipment and poor handling..., well maybe not a Hostess Twinkie...

This guy owns a hobby shop for R/C stuff and does not sell the ceramic jars or charge in an open space on a ceramic tile or metal sheet? Well, maybe his retirement is a good thing....

Greg


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Greg... have you ever been ready to take a bite of a Twinkie and have someone jostle your arm and get it up your nose instead???? That crème filling is mighty tasty but it can really irritate the sinus membranes!

Oh, and I have seen the remnants a cell phone, business suit coat, white shirt and tie, when a Li-ion battery went POOF in a cell phone that was accidentally pressed against a steering wheel while in the inside pocket of the suit coat. Thankfully I did not see the photos of the guy's chest.


----------



## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I had within 2 weeks, 2 seperate lithium batteries swell. One from my iphone, and another in a mophie juice pack for that phone. The mophie from 1/8" went to over 1" thick like a balloon. 

Lesson learned, do not let the battery fully discharge and leave it discharged. Or keep it permanently on float trickle charge. 

The benifit & danger of lithium is a large amount of energy in a small volume & weight.

It's like what has more power a gallon of propane vs a gallon of oxy/acetylene?

Also lithium burns like magnesium, it almost cannot be put out.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg.
For your information I do not hate Lithium batteries.
I don't hate anything or anyone except perhaps those of us who think they know it all but don't really know it all and then change a posting to cover up after they have demonstrated that ignorance when expressing an opinion. 
Not thinking of anyone in particular of course.

My Honda Civic hybrid uses Li-Ion chemistry.

I now sell Li-Ion batteries on a regular basis. I have had zero problems with them.
The Li-Ion packs I sell all have protection circuit pcb's built in. 
Conversely. I know of *NO* multi cell Li-Po hobby packs regularly available that do have protection pcb's.

Never underestimate the ability of anyone to try and emulate the Darwin awards. Even if that attempted emulation is on a smaller scale.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I have two Lithium battery packs and so far have had no problems. But, I made my Dash 9 so I can remove the battery pack from the locomotive while charging. Also, while I put my first battery pack on charge in a motel room and went to bed for the night, I no longer charge my packs unless I'm around to keep an eye on them. Also, I like the idea of setting the pack on a ceramic tile as a wooden work bench could catch fire if the battery pack caught fire. Regardless to whether people don't like these packs or not, this thread has good ideas for those of us who are using Lithium Batteries. Thanks for starting the thread Tony and thanks to the others who included their ideas of safely using these type batteries.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

> I like the idea of setting the pack on a ceramic tile as a wooden work bench could catch fire


If you've ever seen a video of one of these going up, it's far safer to put them in an non-flammable container with a lid so the battery is fully enclosed. Just mho.


----------



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The PCB/PCM’s (protection circuit board/module) afforded most Lithium-Ion batteries are simple devices that are incorporated into assembled battery packs by battery resellers. It’s not common in the R/C world but there are battery assembler/resellers that offer integral PCM’s for Lithium Polymer batteries same as those used in Lithium-Ion batteries. The primary difference is the ampacity requirement of said PCM. R/C Li-Po batteries as compared to Li-Ion batteries can provide MASSIVE current potential, accordingly such a device must be matched to the battery and current requirements in play. Trains as a rule do not require high discharge amperage numbers to operate unlike power hog R/C equipment, accordingly a Li-Po fitted with a typical PCM is doable (I have a few examples of these setups in play myself). Far as I know high amperage PCM’s are uncommon and not essential when a modern ESC is in play. 

Li-Po’s are generally coupled with radio control ESC’s (electronic speed controls), these ESC’s offer similar if not more sophisticated battery protection than the atypical PCM/PCB of Li-Ion batteries. These features combined with sophisticated balance chargers and balance charge algorithms offer the MOST head room for safety and battery maintenance. 

Common ESC attributes:

Auto battery voltage selection, multiple low voltage warnings alerting the operator the battery is nearly expired; one common method is for the ESC to throttle down to idle alerting operator and subsequently allowing power to be reapplied after cycling the throttle stick to idle and there is short circuit protection and much more.

Lithium-Ion and Lithium Poly batteries are essentially comprised of the same materials, either chemistry has the same potential for failure modes when properly utilized or not.

If you like numbers, imagine this, Lithium Polymer batteries out sale all other like size/capacity technologies combined by a notable margin. Li-Po batteries are powering your cell phones, tablets and so on. Protection circuits are generally an integral part of said device. There are millions of Li-Po’s in the field, we only seem to hear of small number of failures glorified by the unknown. The proper care and feeding of any Lithium technology is generally suspect when we here of problems associated herein. 

Utilizing a properly configured balance charger together with some sort of fire safe enclosure is as good as it gets for battery charging safety. Problem is human beings make mistakes, become complacent and don’t thoroughly understand how to use said charger/batteries and recognize anomalies thereof.

Since we don’t know what failure mode was realized of the Hobby shop noted by this threads O.P., we can only assume proper safety measures were NOT in play. Things that come to mind; was there a safe charging enclosure, was a balance charger, a standard charger or a smart charger in play, was the charger properly configured for the battery under charge (most common shortcoming), what was the physical status of said battery and there are more unknowns herein. There is NO reason for this to have happened if the operator had followed known practices and fully utilized the integral safety features of smart balance chargers.

Michael


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight Ennis said:


> If you've ever seen a video of one of these going up, it's far safer to put them in an inflammable container with a lid so the battery is fully enclosed. Just mho.


The screwy English language has caught you!  

"Flammable" and "Inflammable" mean the same thing... something can (easily) catch fire. 

'Flammable' is mostly used to indicate a material is subject to rapid oxidation (such as, Gasoline is Flammable.

'Inflammable' often is used in connection to a situation or personality (such as, the crowd was in an inflammable mood, or he has an inflammable temper).

What you meant was "to put them in a 'NON-Flammable' container".


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

You're right Semper. Good catch.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Michael for the comprehensive summary.
You are of course correct.
Notwithstanding the lack of information supplied in the news story. The point about the posting is that, if it can happen to a hobby shop proprietor who should know the proper procedure, it can happen to anyone. Especially the general public. 
My guess is that no special charging procedure or enclosure was used as if there had been, it is likely not to have caused such a big conflagration.


----------



## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a lipo going on fire in my RC Heli, could yank it out on time without any damage to the heli,i bought another one ,no problems since,well i cut my self with a knife ,put a bandaid on it and learned how to use a knife !
I like the twinky stuff ,i know some body taking a straw to the store and sucking the filling out well.....


----------

