# Your thoughts on Air wire???



## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

Is it worth it or not????


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

In short......yep!


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Not


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 11 Sep 2011 06:17 PM 
Not 
IMO, someone who is a competitor shouldn't offer an opinion in topics like this.. 
Its an obvious conflict of interest..
Scot


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Well, it depends on what you mean by "Worth It" I use Airwire on my locos and I love it. I tried many different systems; Airwire, RCS and Beltrol, along with G-Wire and Aristo's Revo and the origional TE. Every system has it's positives and negatives, for me the A/W was the best balance and was the only one that offered one thing very important to me, and that is a speed knob. I was not a fan of pushing buttons a repeated number of times to change speed. 

So, what are your criteria to determine if it is "Worth It", that would help us to better answer your questions.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Daniel,

It would probably be a good idea {just sayin') that you get this opinion from the folks who ACTUALLY use this system.









Try this Airwire forum and you should be able to get the answers you want or need. BTW, I ACTUALLY use the Airwire system and have for the past four years. Very happy with it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirWire/

You will have to register for it, but it's a great forum for Airwire users exclusively.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Scottychaos on 11 Sep 2011 06:47 PM 
Posted By Del Tapparo on 11 Sep 2011 06:17 PM 
Not 
IMO, someone who is a competitor shouldn't offer an opinion in topics like this.. 
Its an obvious conflict of interest..
Scot 
Well, of course you are right. But I do speak from experience. It helped me get into the business. I've aired my problems with this product before, so I won't repeat it. Most likely, they have been fixed by now anyway.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I have all but the betrol. The Airwire is my fav. But as stated they all offer something.

Bubba


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The policy here is that moderators can express personal opinions, not as a moderator. 

Similarly, I don't see why Del could not offer his opinion as an experienced modeller, and from my personal dealing with Del, I have found him to be straightforward and honest. 

I've used Airwire... I don't like it, but I see it as an intermediate step between something like the Revolution (fewer features and cheaper) and full fledged DCC (where you can mix and match components to your heart's delight and tons of features). 

My experience is loss of control, not complete DCC compatibility, restrictions in some functions, and you give up the ability to buy decoders from more than one manufacturer.

In addition, it appears that they deliberately modified some features to make another manufacturer's compatible throttle incompatible. While I understand trying to protect your market, I thing it was a backwards step for Airwire.



It has a niche, and if you are willing to "lock yourself" into a proprietary system, it might be just right for you. 


Regards, Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 

I agree that Del can give his opinion on Airwire, but maybe...just maybe he might have prefaced his "not" comment with the fact that he sells competitive products. Also if you will note that Del, in a later post, said that "I've aired my problems with this product before, so I won't repeat it. Most likely, they have been fixed by now anyway." What!!! 

Daniel asked for thoughts on Airwire and was given some straight-forward opinions. But, as usual on MLS, it gets into a pi**ing match. Greg, you have your bias. They are well known. WE ALL have our bias with products, myself included. Just give Daniel or anyone else, your educated opinion and let it go. But I think anyone who gives an opinion here probably needs to coment UPFRONT, whether they sell certain products or might be biased toward a product BEFORE making the opinion. Off my soapbox now. Flame away.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No flames. A reasonable request. Not everyone knows that Del sells a competing product. I agree. 

Greg


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Youre either a DCC guy or an R/C guy...locked! Nuff said









Bubba


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

I started with Airplane rc system, then an RCS, then Locolinc and finally Airwire. I just wish Airwire had been around to start with, then I wouldn't have wasted my money elsewhere.
Anything I buy in the future will have to be Airwire compatible.
For the money, For me, Airwire is the way to go.

Please, I have no issues with the other systems I have mentioned. They just not for me.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

(Mod hat on) While MLS actively encourages manufacturers to take part in discussions, we do ask that they fully disclose any potential conflicts of interest when entering into a discussion relative to products that compete with their own. It only strengthens their credibility and helps them build a better reputation for themselves to be up front about that kind of stuff. (mod hat off) 

Back to the topic at hand... Whether Airwire is "worth it" or not. 

I'm going to presume you're asking specifically about battery powered R/C systems, so comparisons to track-powered DCC systems and their "universal" approach would be pointless. There is no universality in battery R/C systems. There's an increasing degree of cross-pollination, but you still can't buy into a system for which you buy one brand transmitter and run everyone elses' controllers. 

The short answer is "yes, Airwire is 'worth it.'" I've been using it on my trains for 2 years now, and have used it when running on my dad's railroad for a few years prior to that. I also use Aristo's Revolution and the G-wire/QSI combination. As others have said, each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I'd readily recommend any of them. I tend to put the cart before the horse, so to speak. My priority is quality sound, and currently, that means Phoenix sound systems. The "best" system on the market for getting the most out of the Phoenix is the Airwire. As technology and new products come on the market, that may change, but for how I run my trains, Airwire does about 90% of what I want a system to do. (And that's about as good a percentage of any system I've used.) I haven't tried Airwire's latest handheld throttle yet, but I actually find that I prefer their old RF-1300 transmitter. It's very simple, and I like that the knob has a solid "start" and "full" position as opposed to their other transmitters where the knob just keeps spinning. 

Later, 

K


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

Sorry is I open a can of worms..... I was only looking for input on the product... I have usa and aristocraft stuff that I was going to slowly change over to battery power. "Worth it or not" Other words pro and con's 


Daniel Peck


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

A/W for me! I tried other systems don't really care for them.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Daniel, 

I plan on using Airwire in all of my locomotives, with the exception of my son's railtruck. I have chosen to standardize on Airwire and Phoenix sound. The Airwire choice is simple, I only need one (or two) transmitters. From now on, when I purchase a new loco and install R/C I only have to purchase and Airwire Reciever, thus cutting the cost of each loco build down. That is something you need to consider. One unique feature is the ability to split the board to fit it into smaller spaces, this came in quite handy in my 3-truck shay install. Also, programming the Airwire is pretty straight forward and relatively simple. I have the newer T-9000 throttle and my only complaint is the same as Kevin's in that there is no positive stop to the speed knob. That being said, in my opinion, YES Airwire is worth it. 

Chris


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Daniel,

I have used Airwire/Phoenix for about four years now. I went by the overwhelming positive remarks I received when I asked other users what they were using AND why. I am NOT an electronic "geek", so I wanted something simple that works. I DID have some range problems and lost contact with my locos early on, but this was my mistake. NOT the system. I am very happy with Airwire and will continue to add to my other locos as soon as possible.









I am using the T9000 throttle now. Have two of them. I want to purchase the new 5000 throttle when it becomes available this year.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Daniel, 

I'm am relatively new to the scale. I have been in HO for many years and am very comfortable with DCC in that scale. When I started to dabble in this scale I wanted something with about the same control, but I did not want to mess with cleaning track. So that meant an R/C option, much like what you are thinking now. I was going to go with a QSI/G-Wire combo because I was very comfortable working with QSI's decoders in HO and I already had the computer interface. I bought a NCE G-wire transmitter and ordered a G-wire receiver and Magnum Decoder. That was in Dec of last year, I have yet to get my decoder because like many here, I'm on the QSI bubble waiting for the Titan. 

I decided I didnt want to wait and went with my second option of going with Airwire/Phoenix. I installed it into a Bachmann K-27. I have been very pleased with the results. I am controlling my loco with the NCE G-Wire transmitter, so I cant customize some of the functions. But, because of the way my K-27 has turned out I will purchase a T5000 once they come out. I will still run the QSI stuff, but I think the Airwire is just as good. 

I think you cant go wrong with the Airwire. Yes you will be locked into purchasing equipment only from CVP but that is no different than any of the other R/C systems.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with Airwire is that you have to add sound to get sound. I get a QSI sound decoder and Gwire receiver for a hundred bucks less than an Airwire receiver/decoder and a Phoenix sound card. The sound of the QSI is about 95% the Phoenix right now. QSI is coming out with their Titan sound decoder between now and Christmas which is 64 bit sound and should be way better than anything Phoenix has right now. I operate both the Airwire and the QSI with the Airwire transmitter ( so you can have a knob to control your train). With Airwire you can only operate one loco on one frequency so you are limited to 16 locos because ther are 16 frequencies. You can change the frequency but you have to open up your loco and transmitter to do that. The QSI will operate 1000 locos on one frequency by just setting the address to the loco number. (Something Airwire reccommends also but you still have to set the frequency right.) As for right now I am waiting to see what the upcomming Aristo Revolution sound receivers sound like.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I posted a video of the revolution sound system, look under gregeusa on youtube, there's a thread somewhere here with the link too.

It won't be anything near the QSI or Phoenix, think half way between Dallee and Phoenix. (if you haven't heard the Dallee to compare, it's on youtube also) 


Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree with the recommendation about QSI/G-Wire. But good luck trying to find any sound decoders. They aren't out there. 

The Titan will probably be a great decoder but you are looking at probably not getting any until after the new year. I would venture to say that all the back orders will gobble up the first run of the Titan. I know of several people who have them on backorder, including me. 

Also, one other thing. If you go Airwire, you dont have to have a Phoenix. It is the best, but not needed. You can use other cheaper sound cards or none at all. With the QSI/G-Wire, you have to have the sound card. The G-wire receiver will not work without the sound card.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

...I'm relatively new to the forum but not to the sport.

Worth it ? Compared to what ? Plain old track powered DCC ? 


To me, and its just my view on life, the track powered DCC market is like the POTS *telephone *line business. Most of those wire line phone guys are out of business and scrambling for wireless market share to stay alive. Remember the old Bell System ? Remember GTE ? Remember NJ Bell ? They even tried to kill VOIP and now VOIP is slaughtering them. They even said wireless cellular doesn't provider true standard DTMF - similar to the track layers who say wireless DCC is not compliant standard DCC on rails and argue back and forth that DCC is a standard only for' rails '! So DTMF would be a standard for POTS line only in the same argument. But 2 billion cell phones in use today are not compliant to the old DTM standard even though they provide bullet proof DTMF ? Who's watching the compliance anyway if you are losing money ? 


Yes one can argue that you can do all kinds of cool things as long as the track is powered and the engines have pickups (ugh) to scrape the track and gather the juice in. Sending square wave pulses over wired track is from the sixties literally. No different than morse code over telegraph wire in the 1900s. Sorry old dudes, but stay in the right lane on this Bahn or take exit 1A to the flea markets where you will find more trackies. POPL - plain old power line - That's what track DCC really is. 

The future is really with cellular and IP based Command and Control (CICC) with nano electronics so miniature that these current 5 Amp 'decoders' already look like 8 track cartridges in a sixties disco. With ipad consoles and Arduino, Xbee and Zwave micro components at a fraction of the cost of fat DCC systems, in five years the only thing of value in your collection will be the brass LGB track and switches which are ageless.

Plus who wants to be walking around with throttles with numbers like 'F6' when you can run multiple trains with an iPhone 4S and slide your switches around with voice commands ?


Air Wire, QSI, NCE wireless procabs, RCS ... - these guys are the pioneers in the field and keeping up with the true spirit of innovation that is going to take a quantum leap far beyond what is even imagined today. Currently I'm planning to sync my train timings to the Deutsche Bahn timings between Wiesbaden and Frankfurt with stops precisely matched to my garden line. All on my iphone and I'm usually six seconds behind. Try this on wired DCC without a Network time server to help you along. All my switches have IP address that report in every second. Not decoder addresses. My trains have web servers that publish battery (fuel conditions, load, distance, time, weather, and exact speed) The list is endless. Can you download the latest sound file wirelessly to Loco # 3 for example ? Or do you prefer to open up trains and do it the trackie way ?


Did I generate enough steam ? Good.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Can you say "stir the pot" This should be fun.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

It sure is nice to regarded as a pioneer.


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Whooooosh! Most of that was straight over my head. All I know is that, Airwire works for my trains. I don't have to know why.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Alas, Tony. Didn't want to insult you but you earned Guru Status in my rankings a long time ago. What's with the web sites of you R/C wireless guys ? Were they hacked out by a sixth grader learning HTML ? Anyway the shabby sites are normally a sign of true genius.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Victor. 
Thanks for the compliment. 
I take it you are aware that there are two Remote Control Systems (RCS) websites. Mine, which has been operating for the last 12+ years and the one started recently by Cordless Renovations when they simply "took over" my business name when they had explicitly agreed not to do so. 

I hope you were not implying my website was "shabby" as you put it. The 17 yo lad who set it up for me so that I could work on it without knowing anything about HTML, would be a bit miffed. 

I have the ability add to or make changes to the web pages at will. Which I do on a regular basis. 
To the best of my knowledge all the pages work properly with full descriptions and prices of all items.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Victor - Sounds like you have some great technical knowledge. If the hardware is real and cost effective, bring it on baby! We can use that on MLS and in the hobby. If you are just here to give us all crap and tell us how great you are ... No thanks [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

a nunber of points were brought up, some valid, some insightful,some wrong and some just plain bs... 

when i get back to a proper keyboard, i'll respond 

would i like an ipv6 address for all my devices? you betcha! 

greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Uh oh, the pot is stirred!! hee hee. and for the guy up above that, there are still QSI/G-wires out der ya just got to find em!! Regal


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Victor,
Pictures please.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tony, 
Apologies. I have the US stateside bookmark which is a site that does not do justice to the technology. It needs a facelift and real content with FAQs to help the consumer who supports this sport. 

Can't wait for the resaponse from Greg E. Criticism is the mother of true innovation. 
Sorry to hear he still uses a keyboard  I have some QWERTY carcasses in the basement. 

Cheer.s.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Victor. 
No apology necessary. I just like to get the facts correct. 
The Stateside RCS website created by Cordless Renovations is nothing to do with me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

victor, if you have the time to type on a toy, good for you... i touch type and it's faster on a full size keyboard... you might want to watch your barbs... even if you believe you know all the answers.... 

greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I investigated the possibility of utilising the I Phone to have a (non DCC) radio control system via an app. 
Neat idea in theory, but, when operators realise they have to take their eyes off the train to make control commands the idea very soon falls out of favour. 
It is not possible to touch type with an I Phone. Period. 
Controlling our trains is far more enjoyable when those controls are tactile.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm surprised you guys can't spot a troll or entity or whatever it is.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Greg, 

I never implied Or stated I know all the answers. My life would be too boring if I did. I teach graduate student engineers who I challenge to think way outside the status quo box and constantly, not sporadically. In our class, I expect them to set the standards, and let the rest of the world follow. 

Meanwhile, as for barbs, I may have said something in jest, but its too bad if you have no sense of humor. I think I'm entitled to this as you have already classified 25% of what I wrote in response to the simple Airwire question as incorrect and another 25% as 'bs' while you look for some keyboard to respond. It's like my students saying I'm incorrect, but I need to wait for them to find a typewriter ribbon before they can justify the statement. So I'll wait. Maybe you have something better. And I won't classify it as 'bs'. That's not my style. 

Are we getting off track here from the key question here ? 

Best. 

Vic


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

well looks like this threds going to change into a "bitchy kitty". Back to the subject ... I have used G scale graphics (Del makes a good product), RCS and Airwire with great sucess. They all have a place. Really like my RCS (before sale) equipment. The Airwire I like for the dcc side of remote control. Could someone speak about the G2 and the upcoming new controller? I have the 1st generation boards.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The implication that the soft keyboards on cell phones or even pads is more efficient than a normal size keyboard, is normally from a person completely enamored with that technology. 

It has it's place and it has it's advantages, but typing a long and detailed and accurate response to your multi-pointed post is not one of them. 

Dunno where you got 25%, but if you took the four categories and automatically assumed that each category was equally divided, please don't send any of your engineers my way. 

Already you are twisting my words... 

I said: "some valid, some insightful,some wrong and some just plain bs... " 

Nowhere in the accepted English language sentence structure does it demand that the 4 choices get 25% each... I used the word "some".... 

The smart money says don't even reply to your post. 

Regards, Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tony, 

In this simple and primitive video, where the operator is oversimulating his action to get the desired effect for the benefit of the video viewer, do you see his eyes glued to the smartphone ? It doesn't matter if the task-to-task request/response communication is through DCC or non-DCC. It should give you a general idea. You've probably seen this before but yet you may not see what I'm implying. And with an iPhone or other smartphones, you shouldn't be typing !! A mere nudge, or pinch to tap should be enough if the app is designed well. I could send you even more interesting ideas happening in Europe with switching, but maybe this is the wrong forum for advanced concepts arguments. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGtg0DDVRDo&feature=related 

Cheers, mate.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Very cool indeed ! All you need is a DCC setup (decoders, command station, and track cleaning equipment), an iPHone, the "App", and a network connection. That's easy enough. What does that cost?

While this is an interesting topic, please take you attitude to what ever forum you like, just not here. 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure, with enough practice you can operate the I Phone without staring at it all the time. 
However, in outdoor situations, especially in Australian and So Californian sunshine, the I Phone screen is not very bright at all.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Victor.... 

Thanks for the video links. 


That is very, very nice. The world of technology is absolutely fascinating. 

Maybe I missed it but are the signals sent through the track or is communication via WiFi (iphone) to a receiver in the locomotives??? 


I'm most impressed with what you've put together using the iphone technology. May not be everyone's "thing", but it's here today whether we use it or not.









Love the bloopers.... Shows that everything doesn't always go as planned... Great that you included them.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By VictorSpear on 22 Oct 2011 08:24 PM 
Tony, 

In this simple and primitive video, where the operator is oversimulating his action to get the desired effect for the benefit of the video viewer, do you see his eyes glued to the smartphone ? SNIP
Cheers, mate. 

Nice video. Thanks for sharing.
Actually the operator WAS[/b] looking at the screen in the opening shot when slowing the train. After that you don't see the operator or his/her eyes at all. So, how do we know he/she wasn't looking at the screen all the time when operating?
Believe me I thought long and hard about the possibilities. The lack of tactile feel turned me off the idea.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Del,

Who's talking about buying track cleaning equipment and expensive command stations ? That's a typical reaction in the hobby.They are being sold by the kilo on eBay these days for good reason. You don't need an iPhone - any one of those cheaper Android knockoffs for $75 will do. The Apps are either free or no more than $5 if they fit. BTW, you should be looking at the new nano material - super-conductive paint that you can spray on track once every six months to keep it conductive instead of cleaning track, with colors of your choice. Since cleaning and sweeping is in the general mindset, the sport is still dependent on time available to prep the track and the affordability of track.


As for my attitude towards work and play, it stays with me. You may want to look at yourself in the mirror first. Your forum message is spitting out stuff periodically like this:

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);

I like 'sadvertising', but not on every forum re-post. All puns intended.


Cheers !


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Stan,

Thanks for the appreciative post - rare on this forum . The first 12 seconds of any of this young team's clips will tell you exactly what it is connected to. I resist to simply advertise goods in nicely shaping technical forums and distract from the science and engineering. I'm trying to persuade the younger human-interface designers in various worldwide teams to design the keypad to accept any label in any language. Why do we need the old F6 when it can be labeled 'Shunt' or switched back to F6 for DCC fans anytime?


In this one - TogKlubben's senior dispatcher wears the throttle and uses it when needed  http://www.youtube.com/user/TouchCab#p/u/2/pV-rKAVIVeA


If you like to ring a bell, or blow a whistle or turn a lamp on, take a look at a non-track dependent example focused on lights from our Dutch colleagues (the land of bulbs and Philips) in segment 0:54 of this clip, where the truck engages gear, reverses and parks with flashers on. Not connected to the track, wireless of course. If you really get turned on by turning on lights, try simulating a fire going near segment 3:29 and the train slowing down. The clip is mostly about lights in a few segments and the rest is mainly to impress kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExQoK-khio&NR=1 ...pity the video isn't in HD.


Now for more interesting nanotech stuff, if you still use magnets and reeds ? Instead how about a $4 electronic pressure sensor (FSR, Force sensitive resistor, 0.3 inches, wafer thin) that will sense the exact weight of your engine and cars as it passes through a payload weigh station and send a signal to 'mission control' station to automatically slow it down when approaching a curve, tunnel or descending a gradient ? Most important when exhibiting in front of the neighborhood kids who only care about speed. The speed control feedback signal can be automatically set for different weights of different trains like Big Boys. You can slip it under a tee and use it also to control the old legacy switches from grandpa's LGB without reeds, weeds and magnets.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Given that this is a battery only forum and you are primarily discussing track powered versions of DCC, perhaps the DCC forum would be more appropriate.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Very interesting Victor. I'd be interested in knowing more on what replaced the traditional command station.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Victor,
Do you have any personal or commercial interest in Touchcab, http://touchcab.com/ , or ESU, http://www.esu.eu/en/products/ ? Your rather sharp tongue aggressive posts here seem to have a lot of similarities to the descriptions on the Touchcab website.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Paul,

No commercial interest at all. They just scratch the surface of what's possible in this sport but are on the right track and its a micro gauge I resonate well in. There are several firms I know of working on stuff even more intriguing ('cool' in their jargon) and sophisticated, yet brilliantly simple. In the examples I posted, I've only focused on the Human Interface in a wireless paradigm which has needed a critical review in our sport - just my view. In exploring the future of nano technology, I have a lot of personal interest as a scientist and engineer and I haven't discussed even 5% of that yet given that I joined the forum less than a week ago. And we are not talking about sweeping and cleaning track, bridge rectifiers and capacitors, heat sinks or batteries that explode here. And I also have significant concerns on the quality of what's being dumped in the kids' backyards as they are needed to sustain this sport in the future.


Cheers !


Victor


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By VictorSpear on 23 Oct 2011 05:10 AM 
{snip...}[/i] Please, can you tell me which is the best place in the forums to discuss these things and get feedback ? I don't want to bore anyone with new sciences. {snip...}[/i]
Victor

Personally (i.e. not as a moderator), based upon the choices available I would suggest the "Other Proprietary Control Systems" forum as the correct place. Although I realize that the proprietary portion might not rightly apply.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By VictorSpear on 23 Oct 2011 05:10 AM 

....Please, can you tell me which is the best place in the forums to discuss these things and get feedback ? I don't want to bore anyone with new sciences. 

Best.

Victor 



You're doing JUST FINE Victor. I love to see the new technology stuff and thoughts on how it might be applied. I wonder how long it will be before someone finally gives us 802.11n wireless connectivity to an on-board control system with control functionality that can be tailored to the devices on-board by loading apps to the handheld controller. The invention of the Android technology should open this up very soon. My guess is that somewhere, some student has gutted a cheap Android phone and hooked it to an ESC already...and is controlling that ESC from another Android phone. When ya figure that the guts of an Android phone cost $13, it's not gonna be long before something like this happens.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mike, your guess was right on. Cheers ! There's plenty going on in that jump zone you refer to and more junior scholars are parachuting in because the mission is achievable. I'll try and revert with findings when I get back into port. 

SteveC - thanks for the suggestion. I will check it out there and encourage some of the team to jump in when time permits and contribute. Not too keen on the proprietary desk assignment. It would have been good to have a forum for 'Advanced Control' or 'Nanoelectronic Command and Control'. Someday it will happen.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By VictorSpear on 23 Oct 2011 05:57 PM 
... I'll try and revert with findings when I get back into port. 


Are you at sea?


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes sir. 45 miles off the coast of Menton, near Monaco. SAT reception is pretty good in the Mediterranean where cellular doesn't work at all and my routers at the home base don't like certain packets from here. But all trains in the school are reporting only minor delays and one no-starter on the cabin's consoles since my SMS to the yard switch does not work too well. I cannot bring one of the locos in for charging and the night watchman will not assist anymore since I blew the horn too loud when he was cleaning. 

Weather is Azure blue here so life is not too fast but waves could get choppy around 7:00 tonight.

Cheers.
Victor


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

But HAM and Short Wave bands we are listening to in the Mediterranean over the last 14 hrs have been reporting terrible and conflicting news about the 7.2 quake 1112 nautical (2 hrs by flight) across the Mediterranean in Turkey over the last several hours where the death toll (including a dorm with several students) is now around 270+ and more than 300 buildings collapsed. The universities have wireless sensors inside the world's deepest immersed under-sea tube tunnel at Marmaray by the Sea of Bosphorous. It is amazing how the sensors report back on track shudder, movement and sway faster than anything else that can sense quakes in tunnels. The tunnel is 8.5 miles at depth of more than 180 feet below sea level. The tunnel with 2 bi-directional tracks should accommodate at least 3,000 passengers per hour in our estimate as the total system has a capacity of 75,000 passengers per hour ! Wireless Signaling, they have mandated, must *accomodate *trains 90 to 120 seconds apart - which is not bad for Euro standards on above ground. 

Now why would anyone build such a tunnel in a known quake zone like this ? Even if everything can be 100% automated ? We need to study the model rail simulations for this before the rest of the world goes crazy building undersea tunnels in certified quake zones where humans can be stuck for days. For comparison, the 1988 quake in nearby Armenia took 25,000+ lives with a 6.9 magnitude. Don't we learn from history ? Another reason to model and simulate the whole bloody thing in the labs first and flood the tunnels to see what could really happen to the entire system. It would cost a fraction compared to the 3.3 billion project budget here and of course save lives.


Not so good.

Victor.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I considered the android approach for thin clients for my own 'linux on board' setup for an automated railway but a friend pointed me towards these $25 Raspberry Pi (http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=8) 

1Watt max power usage. (can be run off 4 AA batteries for several hours) 
700Mhz ARM 
Composite and HDMI video 
128MB of Ram 
OS run off removable SD card 
2 USB ports 

For an extra $10 you get 256MB of Ram and an ethernet port. 

I'm writing my own software (I'm aware of JMRI) and will be using wifi for communication and RFID readers _on_ the consist (not sure if it will be loco or trailing car) and placing rfid sensor tags every foot or so (and more where accuracy is even more important) along the 800' or so feed of track I'll be laying. 

I'd like to do several things that knowing the location down to 1' or less increments will be helpful for. Also the only thing I have to do for a new consist is measure the distance from the rfid reader to the front and back of the consist. I don't have to deal with creating block for the track (I'd basically have 800+ blocks on the railroad without having to modify car wheels for resistance or other sensoring modifications. Also it will be a plus because any visiting train could put a car with this setup in their consist and the system would know where that loco is, speed, and heading and be able to route other trains around where it will be heading. Only thing people on track power, Revolution, or other control systems would have to worry about is not running into each other since the my trains will be programmed to "run away from" consists that the software doesn't have loco control over.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Brandon,


It's clear you are looking at the price model potential with the *Pi, *but interestingly you ignore the microeconomics when you are reaching for over 800 RFID sensors, even if they could be the latest passive UHF Gen 2s. Is this an RFID reference project maybe ? Are your on-board readers going to trigger sense-fire every foot throughout the day or on-demand? Either way its too expensive in terms of power. 



This argument is only based on cost models. Other arguments on the techs later: Don't know if you have an unlimited budget here, but you can plot a solution that has less fat, much cheaper and more intuitive if you can distinguish between 'I want' and ' I need' for example. There is bloat at the board level which will cost in performance but that may not be a concern here. 

Do you need 800+ RFID sensors or do you want to know precisely where your trains are in real time ? You have an OS on board. Use it. If you are building an OBC with storage and mems why wouldn't you use the in-mem algorithm libs with a simple photonic micro-rev counter/sensor and mathematically arrive in real-time f0(dist,time) to plot the precise location + flush the records to in an in-mem db or overwrite to the last 5 tuples since you can only have fwd/bkwd vectors ? A good objective could be to get a fix within an allowable 30 mm +/- error factor using a dozen cheaper micro-optic photozins spiked along the track for operational location-error correction at various frogs or junctions with rt_triangulation instead of 800+ Gen 2s !? Think about this: Now your loco knows where she is the moment she leaves point A and the algolibs will calculate where she also is if she moves more than an inch in any direction on the track coordinates. The photozins will simply remind her periodically and correct errors. The solution is purely and simply mathematical now on-board. Then the issue is how do you want to get this info to 'mission-control' in real-time ? Do you want to pulse-push, pull-on-demand or poll every second or just alert-trigger ? The cost models are again different here.

(Would be keen to look at this more, daylight permitting, but don't know if we have already derailed from the 'Air wire worth it' topic in this forum since they say it is a 'battery' forum , so perhaps you can check where to land next before the topic gets bloated ? I believe this qualifies in the forum here because you plan to use 'Radio' for RFID and you've specified 'battery' clearly anyway).

Any counter-arguments ?

Cheers till later.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Everyone: Let me know if this discussion is too far off topic and I guess we can open a thread elsewhere if needed. The system I'm doing is still under the 'design' phase so I just thought I'd comment that I was looking at possibly doing my own control method which was different than some off the shelf products that were more 'techie' than systems that have been out for a number of years. Location is my #1 priority and I just thought I could create something myself that would produce better results than commercial products. 

Victor: I completely see the logic in what you say. This isn't a reference design or POC for anything, just me and my backyard for fun. I could reduce the number of RFID sensors and count rotations of axles on a trailing car but the reason for more sensors vs doing math was purely KISS/Keep It Simple Stupid. I might find out KISS is the wrong method, I'm just in the idea stages at this point. I have about 25 locos and want to run 5-10 at a time with probably only 2 mainlines. I'd consider putting the RFID readers in my 8 locos with 6 axles (sd-45's, dash-9's and sd70's) but for the rest (and possibly all locos if it turns out to be better) it would be a trailing battery car with the OBC. I would be doing a push method from the OBC to a server that's tracking locations of all consists and sending out commands for speed and direction to the locos/trailing cars. The master system would also be responsible for changing switches and one day track signals. I thought rfid sensors were running about $.37 each, so 800 of them would be a fraction of the cost for 800'+ feet of brass track right now. Power consumption didn't appear to be a worry. Considering an SD-45 uses about 25-50 watts, the 1W from the Pi, a wifi dongle that is less than .2W and a rfid reader that uses .25W seems pretty insignificant. I fly RC planes and have watched in just 5 years how batteries have greatly increased in capacity and gone down in price at the same time so I'm not concerned with an extra 2W of power use. 

Now maybe I'm completely missing something, but as I've mentioned I'm in the idea/design phase and haven't built anything yet. 

Oops, I was thinking Victor was the OP. Victor, if you want to open a new thread we can move this discussion there and let this thread go back to on topic or rip.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Brandon, 

Back on deck. I'm using a Xen desktop to connect to my stateside servers and access the forum since it is cheaper this way to review links and videos over the new battery WSAT I'm testing to control trains, lawn sprinklers, etc... (and also to gzip cache the images/advts . Sometimes the downlink decalibrates and I'm left with half a message or image. So it's better you open the thread in the forum of your choice, and some of us will jump in soon. We'll look for RFID assisted controls perhaps ? 

Cheers. 

Victor


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

So to get this thing back on track (pun intended). Airwire is definately a good resource for R/C operations. I have been very happy with how it has worked for me. Although many will argue that it is not true DCC. I think it is as close as any current product on the market is. 

As for all this other advanced stuff that is way over my head. Don't worry about that. It is not in a useable interface that a consumer can understand. It may well be the future, but it is just that, the future. Until Victor and others like him can get there advanced technology in a more understandable product it will only be for guys like him who understand it. 

Again, I think the Airwire system is definately a great system. Something you might think about. When I first started I intended to just run QSI in all my locomotives so I could simplify my controls. As things have changed I am more aggreable to running QSI or Airwire in any of my stuff. Once I get my new T5000 I will have a controller for each system. The NCE G-wire can control either one, albeit the Airwire is limited control. 

Good Luck.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

For those that are going to the SWGRS I have one of the new Airwire T5000 transmitters that are scheduled to be released on November 7th and will bring it with me to Pomona. I have been using it for a couple days now. It is really easy to use, all the features are menu driven, a big improvement over the T9000. Lets please keep this post string on subject.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

FYI, hijacked thread is now here: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/98/aft/122425/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

We now return you to your regularly written thread.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeez Paul, way to tease. I'm now waiting in anticipation for mine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, I looked it over, while it looks about double in width, and I know people like the smallness of the older transmitters, looks like CVP did nothing but improvements, being able to change the battery without a screwdriver, bigger display that is not cryptic, etc. 

How is battery life since they changed from AAA to 9v? 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
The T5000 just uses two AAA. Don't really know about battery life yet. I do have it set on full power which is supposed to be twice that of the T9000. That will put the most drain on the batteries but too soon to tell how long they will last. It does have an adjustable off timer so that should eliminate the old problem of leaving it on and killing the batteries which I have been known to do.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, from the rectangular battery door, I assumed 9v... whoops.. 

Probably lower powered micro, but the RF transmitter is where power will go. 

Will hope to hear more from you at the show, as you have more time to play with it. 

Greg


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul burch or greg could you shed some light on the t5000 operations of the controls? How do you changing direction? Does the speed dial have a stop? Etc... Thanks I am thinking of reserving one but want to make a informed decision ... I am currently using the 1300 controller. Todd


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You press the speed knob like the previous throttles to indicate direction. It APPEARS that the knob MIGHT goe from one extreme to another, by looking at the arrow on the knob, but Paul will know the answer


The user manual is here: *http://www.cvpusa.com/do...trong>** 

Overall looks like a clear upgrade from the previous throttles.

Regards, Greg*


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd,
The forward and reverse are similiar to the T9000. No stop on the knob,push down on the knob to reverse. The current speed step will be on the display. The arrow on the display will point to the right for forward and to the left for reverse. All the features are menu driven and really pretty simple to use. You can print a copy of the user guide from the CVP website. It's only a couple pages and pretty well illustrated. I would recommend to anyone that buys a T5000 to at least read through the guide to get a basic understanding of the features, even though with the new menu most users probably could just turn it on and figure things out. Setting up a consist is much easier than the T9000 although you can only have one consist at a time unlike the T9000 where you could have several. I'm reserving judgement on that until I've used it a little more. I really do like the consist flip feature. Way easier than the older throttles. Just push the consist key once and then reverse. The old rear loco will now be the lead loco and respond to all function commands. This is pretty typical of how things have been made simpler to use. If you have anymore questions I will be glad to help if I can.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

We use Airwire exclusively as our Battery/RC control system.


Been a big fan of it since we got our first loco converted to Airwire. Jonathan Bliese (Electric & Steam Modelworks) did this first conversion for us.



The range is outstanding. Not sure in other parts of the country, but at our layout we can be a good distance from the train and it still responds to the hand held throttle/controller (T-9000).


The speed control is also good. Just make sure you're using 128 steps (both decoder and throttle). In my usage, the speed transitions are not as smooth and the lower speeds are not as slow as they could be when not using 128 steps.


I really like the ability to control Phoenix sounds with the throttle buttons. It is so easy to program Phoenix sounds to your liking with their software/computer interface. And the ability to control these sounds via the throttle buttons is just great. One of my favorites is the water fill sound when I stop the train at the water tower. We used to have this triggered by a track magnet. It is so much easier to do with the Airwire throttle.


Granted there is a learning curve as with any electronic device. But once you get the hang of it, Airwire is a really nice way to control your trains.


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Paul.


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

OK... Say if you have one engine running and want to flip to another engine and then flip back does the contorller remember were the speed knob is set for the 1st engine? engine keep running at its same speed. I know on the 1300 it does not cause of the speed knob. More likey I want to have one engine running while doing some switch and be able to switch back in forth with out stop a engine.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Just make sure you're using 128 steps (both decoder and throttle). In my usage, the speed transitions are not as smooth and the lower speeds are not as slow as they could be when not using 128 steps. 

Matt, try giving the throttle just a little bit of momentum, say around 20 or so. That's CV3 (acceleration) and CV4 (deceleration). That smooths the transitions between speed steps out very nicely while maintaining the loco's ability to quickly respond to changes in the throttle when needed. The advantage of running with 28 speed steps is that your speed curves are not ignored as they are at 128 steps. That way you can set your top speed at a reasonable speed. 

Note that the instructions tell you that CVs 3 - 6 are ignored in 128 steps, but I've found--at least with the G2s I have--that CV3 and 4 (the momentum CVs) are NOT ignored at 128 steps, _just_ your top speed. You can set your throttle to 128 steps, and still retain your momentum settings. Just remember to reset back to 28 steps when handing the throttle over to the Lionelitis crowd.  

Later, 

K


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Daniel,
The answer is yes if you have put the loco into memory. There are eight memory slots. It will remember all the current settings including frequency. If you are brave enough you could run eight at once from the same transmitter even if all eight are on different frequencies.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul was nice enough to show the new controller to SWMTP at SWGRS last weekend. He seemed quite pleased with it. Here are some pix to give an idea of size & configuration.



















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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary,

Paul was using his T5000 to run my Accucraft C19. Much improved range on my all-metal locomotive! So easy to use and very intuitive. I liked it so much, I went back into the show and bought one for myself from Jonathan. Should receive it in about two weeks!


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## Mogeley (Dec 6, 2010)

Looks like a good system for now. 

However, it would be nice to see these companies catch up with the computing world. WIFI and BlueTooth radios can be found on a single 5mm chip (antenna included) for under $3, (that was over a year ago). Print Servers and wireless NIC's can be found on thumb drives for under $30. I'm wondering when will a Model railroading company be smart enough to jump on board and use existing mass produced computing technology. Part of me keeps telling me to save my money and wait for this...


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

The advanced stuff is all driven my consumer demand. In model railroading there isnt a large enough demand base, let alone demand for the advanced product to make it worth while for a manufacture. At some point there will be, but dont hold your breath. I say go with Airwire or something like it. The total investment will be worth it, until new tech comes out.


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