# Synchronizing the chuff sound of the sound card to sensors and magnets on the tender'



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I believe that placing two tiny magnets close together on a mallets driver wheel and another 2 tiny magnets directly opposite the first two on the same wheel will produce the most realistic sound to wheel synchronization for a compound type locomotive like the Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet. The diameter of a tender wheel is about 3/4 the diameter of the driver wheels on the mallet, so which would produce a more realistic exhaust shuff, 2 groups of 2 magnets or one group of 2 magnets on a tender wheel ?


MERRY CHRISTMAS


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

TTT, you are about to learn the wide wide world of chuff triggers.

Yes, many people use the tender wheels because they are easier, and are approximately the right "speed" once you use "fewer magnets"... i.e. 4 chuffs per revolution on drivers (4 magnets on a driver), and half that number of magnets on a tender wheel.

If that is good enough, I would use the electronic "autochuff" feature found on many units.

Putting the magnets on the drivers allows precise synchronization and also that the chuff actually happens at the right piston position.

On Aristo locos, the huge side to side movement allowed makes magnets and reed switches difficult, so most people will shim the driver with the magnets so that it cannot move side to side...

It's really a number of choices, and really experience will show you what is important to you.

My advice is to use autochuff features, not go to all the effort of adding magnets and reeds.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I think that in actual use, so long as the chuff syncs to the wheel speed, it is of little importance if it syncs to the position of the pistons.

Recognize that at a distance of just 20 feet, the "sound" and "sight" _should be_ ~1/2 second off from being in "sync" anyways.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you, I'll install two magnets close together on a wheel of the tender and see how I like it, would be nice to synchronize the smoke to the same magnets but I'm jumping ahead.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If the tender wheel is about 3/4 the diameter of the driver, then you can use 3 magnets spaced 120 degrees apart, and it will equal 4 chuffs per revolution of the drivers. I've used this on a number of installations, and it works out very well. The chuff may not be 100% 4 chuffs per revolution based on the exact ratio of driver diameters, but it is perfectly proportional to the speed of the locomotive. I prefer magnets on the drivers, but when I can't do that, this is a very good second option. 

The only real downside to using tender wheels as chuff triggers applies to sound systems where you can tune the chuff to respond to changes in speed, etc., such as Phoenix. If the triggers are on the drivers, then you can set the loco on rollers and make changes all evening long until you get it right. If the triggers are on the tender, you really need to be somewhere that you can run the loco back and forth (preferably a fair distance) to tweak the sounds. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

TTT, I was wondering why you mentioned 2 magnets close together, and then after re-reading, you called your Mallet a compound.... that is incorrect, you only hear the chuffs from ONE of the prime movers, since the exhaust of the "first" is used to power the second. Therefore a Mallet should sound like a Mikado, for example.

Some Mallets could be "simpled" for more power at starting, but this was not the usual case.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Greg, your comment made me check with the Sierra manual and found this.

"Articulated Steam Locomotives We find that using 2 magnets per axle will produce a more pleasing sound. Sierra is supplied with two magnets; additional magnets can be purchased from SoundTraxx as P.N. 810095 or Radio Shack P.N. 64-1895. 

Articulated engines come in two flavors, simple and compound. On simple articulated engines, the cylinders on the front and rear are the same size. On compound engines, one set of cylinders is considerably larger than the second set.

For compound articulated engines, 4 chuffs per driver revolution is correct. Install the same as for regular locomotives. For simple articulated engines, spacing the magnets unevenly will provide an 'interesting' exhaust cadence.

Geared Locomotives Geared engines require a larger number of chuffs due to multiple cylinders and gearing of the drive wheels. Due to the large number of contacts required for each wheel revolution, it is usually impractical to achieve the prototypically correct number of exhaust chuffs per revolution. It is usually preferable to use the Auto-Exhaust feature."

I hope you can enlighten me as to which category the 2 8 8 2 mallet falls according to this.

I was assuming it was a simple articulated engine, I've just visited the Wkipedia and it looks like it's a compounding engine, which means the three magnets evenly spaced on the tender wheel is probably the thing for me. Right?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, meant to use mallet and simple.... corrected myself later in the post.

The tipoff is the different sized cylinders... and if you look closely, the exhaust for one goes to the next.. but not all models represent all the "plumbing" correctly.

Simple locos are like 2 steam locos very close together, and they do go "in and out of sync" with each other... and many modern sound units can do this.

Yes, if you want to use magnets, and given the tender wheel size, you should get close to a prototype rate... BUT many sound cards do not sound good with 4 chuffs per revolution at higher speeds, so you will have to try and see. Keep the loco to 25 smph and you will be good. Faster may sound like a machine gun.

The latest sound cards (very few) will have the capability to alter the chuff with speed, i.e. shorten the sound in time (No Kevin, this is the nowhere near the altering of the "attack" of the sound) and that will take care of this problem. The Zimo, Massoth, and ESU can do this, but it is not automatic, takes different sounds, never heard one just right yet.... MTH does a good job though.

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

MHO, whether it's a simple articulated, or a compound, my preference would be to put the magnets on the drivers/driver axles and the reed switches on the locomotive, connected to the tender with some simple connectors. That's the ONLY way to accurately sync the chuff to the drivers. But I am admittedly a "purist" when it comes to syncronized chuff - it's actually one of my pet peeves. For me, nothing destroys the illusion faster than a loco where the chuffs don't match the drivers, as one would never see this on the prototype. Just my humble opinion.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And I agree, after 10 years, some advances should be available. I'll bet many HO models have chuff triggers timed to the position of the piston.

But there's a large group of people who don't notice... this is just like the endless conversation about putting the speaker in the Mallet tender, many people will say it makes no difference more than a couple feet away, I can tell where the speaker is from 20 feet easily. 

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Looks like I've got some experimenting to do. Never an easy solution, but perhaps that's part of the fun of it.
I've just watched all the Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet youtube videos, half of them have the uneven sound of the simple articulated engines which is incorrect and the other half have the even sound of the compound articulated engines which is correct.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

My new Aristocraft Mallet - All possible to be do…: 




This one looks good.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> this is just like the endless conversation about...


Except in this case, it won't be endless. I said my piece and I'm done.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice locomotive and video, but one thing has me confused. Why does the smokebox door open and remain open as the locomotive starts up? It seems to me that this would cause cold air to be drawn through the open smokebox door by the exhausted steam, rather than hot air being drawn from the firebox via the flues. On a real locomotive, the result would be loss of steam pressure due to an overall cooling of the boiler from incorrect drafting. Am I missing something here?

I have run 1:1 steam locomotives, and even though the largest steam locomotive I ran only weighed 65 tons, the drafting principals would still be the same.

Explanations please?

Thanks,
David Meashey


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I have no Idea, I just found the video on youtube as an example of nicely synchronized sound, I think the owner is from Germany, I'm new to the hobby , the owner has servos all over the place, perhaps he just wants to show how the smoke box door opens, or perhaps he has a speaker next to it?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, a lot of effort in that loco, powered cab windows, powered water hatch, powered smokebox door. The powered coupler is nice, and the smoke unit is good, and the bell ringer is cool. Bell sounds wrong though.

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Wow, a lot of effort in that loco, powered cab windows, powered water hatch, powered smokebox door. The powered coupler is nice, and the smoke unit is good, and the bell ringer is cool. Bell sounds wrong though.
> 
> Greg


And from what I can see, the sound is NOT syncronized.  It's roughly three chuffs per revolution.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I looked again, I'd have to agree Dwight. Probably has the chuff sensor on the tender wheels or autochuff. As I mentioned before, the extreme side to side play in all the drivers in an Aristo steamer preclude using magnets and reeds on the drivers unless you shim one so it cannot move (this is actually easy to do, but few people get it).

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Alas, for those who run steam at "mainline" speeds, it's often necessary to use fewer than the proper four chuffs per revolution to keep the chuffs sounding at least somewhat respectable. (Greg touched on that earlier.) You can't simply play the "chuff" sound faster and faster. It starts to sound pretty horrid, actually. 

The unfortunate result is that you have a choice--run slower, or decrease the number of chuffs per revolution so you can run your trains as fast as you'd like to see them run and have them still sound decent. Those of us who run narrow gauge have it easy; our trains don't come close to approaching the speeds to where this is an issue, except possibly with geared locos. (Presuming, of course, prototypical speeds are maintained--not always the case.) 

Lessening the chuffs per revolution isn't all that objectionable if you're running at speeds where the siderods are somewhat blurred. For those who like to "turn 'em on and watch 'em run," it works. For those who like to watch trains prototypically pull out of the station, it can get a bit unnerving. It's a matter of picking your poison until such time as the technology to dynamically model the sound throughout an entire speed range becomes available at a level where it's affordable and within the computing capabilities of a small sound board. When that happens, sign me up!

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's coming Kevin, and you will love it, finally good low speed and high speed chuffs... it's a bit of work... but it's coming.. if you want it now, you can do it with Zimo, but you need to make the different chuff loops with a sound "program"... in fact you will need to completely create an entire sound project, and it's basically 6 to 10 different sound "groups" and then the groups are activated by speed.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

> Lessening the chuffs per revolution isn't all that objectionable if you're running at speeds where the siderods are somewhat blurred.


Matter of opinion... it's objectionable to me! LOL!! But like I said, I'm a purist. 

Anyway, this wasn't often seen on the 1:1s except for fast passenger locomotives. Too much mass swinging around way to fast. And in those instances where the it did happen (as in this video of the GS-4), the chuffs tended to blend together just as on our models.






Or this one of a GS-3.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Wasn't the 'cutoff' used to shorten the power stroke at speed? Once the mass was moving it took less steam to keep it moving, so they moved the valves towards the middle of the stroke. I'm sure that changed it's tune, from chuff to ch.
John


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Totalwrecker said:


> Wasn't the 'cutoff' used to shorten the power stroke at speed? Once the mass was moving it took less steam to keep it moving, so they moved the valves towards the middle of the stroke. I'm sure that changed it's tune, from chuff to ch.
> John


"Notching back" as it was called, changed the "bark" - not the syncronization. Some sound boards are actually mimicking this now. I just picked up an HO BLI H-10 Consolidation that does this. It also minics the sound of open cylinder cocks for the first six chuffs if the loco hasn't moved in a while. 

In the first video I posted, I find it interesting that, at speed, one hears the rods clanking more than any individual chuffing. I'm sure the loco is notched back at that point as well.

As sound boards continue to improve, perhaps all these issues will be resolved. Auto-syncing will be tough though (imho). The sound board can sense motor voltage and load, but has no idea what size drivers it's connected to. I've played with auto-syncing CVs a few times and found it impossible to get things syncronized over the entire speed range. One can get "close" - but close only counts in horseshoes.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't expect the sync to change as that is fixed to the drivers.
-edit- 
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually some decoders put in the "gear ratio" between the motor rpm and the driver rpm with pretty high precision. As long as the commutator segment transition counts are accurate, it works well. I have a few decoders that do this (about 20).

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to agree with Dwight on this chuff "stuff". He and I come from the purist side of this, not the electronics facsimile. I have operated ride-on steam engines from an 0-4-0 to a 2-6-0, 4-6-0 and up to and including a Pacific and a Northern 4-8-4. The faster these engines run, you lose some of the definition of the chuff, but there is still some definite "cut-off". Electronics just don't do it justice. My pet peeve with large scale live steamers (1/32 -1/29-1/20, etc.)is that folks always seem to run them at "Indy" speeds where the rods are blurred!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I have a few decoders that do this (about 20).


Who makes them? QSI?

I don't know how BLI syncs the chuffing, but they do. I haven't looked for a cam or other sensor. I'm just happy it works. On (smaller scale) Soundtraxx-equipped locos I've purchased with factory sound, I end up replacing the sound decoder so I can add a chuff cam and a small connector to the tender. The sound decoders SoundTraxx sells separately have a wire for the cam... the ones they sell OEM don't. Reducing costs I assume.

Gary - I think that's probably 'cause we're primarily live steam guys. It bugs us more than most. LOL!!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight Ennis;692066
Gary - I think that's 'cause we're primarily live steam guys. It bugs us more than most. LOL!![/QUOTE said:


> Ain't that the truth!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

"the extreme side to side play in all the drivers in an Aristo steamer preclude using magnets and reeds on the drivers unless you shim one so it cannot move (this is actually easy to do, but few people get it)."
If possible please explain further Greg.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get some nylon washers with the right hole diameter to match the axle.

Cut a small notch out, just enough to be able to slip the washers over the axle.

Add washers until the axle cannot slide side to side.

Now all you have to do is pick which axle, and that will take some experimentation, put the washers on the axle you desire and then run it and make sure you don't have operational problems. I cannot speak for all locos and all track layouts and all operators.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

In defence of magnets on a tender wheel, the sound won't be exactly synchronized to each turn of a driver wheel but it will have a constant speed relation to the speed, acceleration and the deceleration of the train, which is far better than a relation to voltage, and if instead of concentrating on looking at a drive wheel you look at the whole train the effect is pleasing.
Additionally since the sound is 20% to 30% slower than it should be ,(smaller wheel but only three magnets) it will maintain an acceptable sound to a higher speed than if it was synchronized to a driver wheel.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

That's not exactly true, a common problem was spinning the lighter engine during start ups and occasionally on grades a drag would suffer wheel slip. Tender wheels will be oblivious to the driver's realities.
With the mallet, the front engine usually had the lighter footprint.
The noise from wheel slip was loud, everybody heard it.

John


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I am too much a novice to be concerned about accurate sound during wheel slip, besides my track will be indoors with no inclines, but I can imagine this can be a concern to the senior members participating in this debate.

Q. Does not wheell slip on a model loco look unrealistic with or without sound?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Not to me, but then again I abhor traction tires too.
I like my models to recreate reality as close as possible, not by notion. I like the battle the engineer undertakes as he brings raw power to life. Spinning the wheels was an every day possibility.

There is no right or wrong so much as personal preferences.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

TTT, this is not a debate... once the OP's question gets answered, it's common for the discussion to meander a bit.

I like wheel slip, not only makes you get prototype power (one loco cannot pull 100 cars) but if you have an obstruction, it's better to have wheel slip as opposed to jammed drivetrain, and usually destruction.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Are we talking about trying to replicate a prototypical steam loco spinning its wheels, as illustrated about 1:15 into this video?






There's no way to replicate that in the model world. When our electrically-driven steam locomotive drivers slip, they just spin at roughly the same speed they were spinning at before they started slipping, because the voltage going to the motor is the same. I've had it happen more times than I care to count. 

I'll say this for tender-mounted chuff triggers, at least. While I do believe it's inferior to driver-mounted chuff triggers, at least if you hear your train stop chuffing all of a sudden, you know it ain't moving and something's amiss.

Later,

K


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I am in Spain , across the atlantic, far from all my trains, flew last night, will spend New Year in Barcelona, in a few days we will be in the Canary Islands, holidays with my wife for over a month, still I find thinking writing , and reading about trains in this forum very relaxing. I've never had a hobby before.
From all the received and much appreciated info, I gather that as soon as I return I will try 3 magnets on a tender wheel for my Aristo-Craft maller with Sierra sound and change the setting to even simple shuffs. For my Bachmann Shay with Dalle sound I will first try the voltage regulated auto shuff setting. For both I will have magnets on the track for the whistle and bell.
I'm buying a harmonica in G today and will soon start practising train sounds in the canary islands, railroad blues, probably by the sea so as not drive my wife mad. I'm planning on posting very beginners videos with harmonica and brushes on the snare drum to represent sound for the trains in March or April 2015. Just for fun.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*Great video*

UP 844 Highball @ 75mph:


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

TTT - just to avoid misunderstandings, I agree with John and others here. This is completely a matter of personal preference, as are most things in this great hobby... the scale one chooses to model in, whether one likes steam or diesel power, whether one models an existing railroad or a freelance line, standard gauge or narrow gange, etc. All are matters of personal preference. 

I was not critisizing your choice so much as stating my own (strong in this case) personal bias. I freely admited up front that I have a very strong feeling on this particular subject. I guess that, instead of being a "rivet counter," one might call me a "chuff counter." LOL!

The only person you have to worry about making happy here is you!  Welcome to the wonderful world of model trains!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like to see Phoenix add a wheel slip sound for those that use DCC and function keys. It would be fun once in awhile to touch a function key and hear some wheel slip when starting from a stop. Don't really need to see it, just hear it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Huh? When my wheels slip they turn faster, that's the definition of slipping. 

The speed of the drivers increases matched by the sound. Yes, they do not go super fast, normally because I don't throw the throttle wide open with zero momentum, but I can force the issue if I want.

I think the "right" statement is that you cannot exactly match the prototype with our models easily. It can be done, but it's a bit of work.

Greg



East Broad Top said:


> Are we talking about trying to replicate a prototypical steam loco spinning its wheels, as illustrated about 1:15 into this video?
> 
> 
> There's no way to replicate that in the model world. When our electrically-driven steam locomotive drivers slip, they just spin at roughly the same speed they were spinning at before they started slipping, because the voltage going to the motor is the same.
> ...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Okay, Greg, yes, it is possible to make the wheels slip--ask any kid who's jammed the throttle from stop to full with no momentum and watched the wheels spin. But when instigating a slip that way, you're quickly increasing the voltage to the motor as a catalyst for overcoming the static friction of the wheel against the rail. The resulting increase in speed is not because of the slip, but because you've spiked the voltage to create it. 

That's different from a locomotive running at constant speed encountering a grade, curve, derailment, or other object which increases the drag on the locomotive sufficiently to induce the slip. In those cases, there's no appreciable increase in the speed of the drivers because the voltage is constant. The _drag_ is what increased. Yes--technically--there's a difference between the coefficient of sliding friction vs. static friction, so the wheels may be turning just a bit faster, but good luck hearing the difference. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Still wrong Kevin, you are doggedly hanging on to an improper assumption, the wheels on my locos go faster when slipping. Maybe you don't have the grades and locos or the system to be able to experience this. I got wheelslip on my layout this Sunday and the wheels went faster and the sound of the prime mover ran up (because the sound board reads the actual motor rpm).

You need to read up on static friction vs. kinetic friction. This is why cars once skidding need to slow down a lot to stop skidding.

Also, where is Todd Brody to come in and tell you about the motor speed is more related to power consumed vs. supply voltage?

Anyway, you cannot re-write the laws of physics, sorry.

To re-iterate, I CAN induce wheelslip, and I CAN hear the difference.

Be careful when you say "no way"... scientists learn quickly that there's very few absolutes in the world.

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Also, where is Todd Brody to come in and tell you about the motor speed is more related to power consumed vs. supply voltage?
> 
> Greg


Granted that the motor speed is more related to power consumed vs supply voltage. And power is defined as the voltage squared divided by the impedience of the motor. So please demonstrate how letting the wheels slip reduces the impedience of the motor thereby increasing the power and motor/wheel speed.

Thanks


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The exciting aspect in Kevins video is feeling the extreme weight of the real locomotive, and the extraordinary power of steam making the drive wheel slip and the anguish on the conductors face and the way he manages to control the situation by very slowly starting again and gaining momentum. I have seen photos of deformed rails where real locos have struggled. By definition the real thing is always greater than the imitation.

Greg, Kevin , nice if you could both post videos of your model trains illustrating your different points of view, by the way, I suspect both points of view are interesting and valid.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

T3, rather than me post a video, experiment for yourself. Run your locomotive, then grab it by the coupler so the wheels slip. Compare what happens to the speed of the drivers. (This is much easier when the drivers are triggering a chuff and you can listen to the tempo of the chuff sound, but it's not mandatory. You can use a stopwatch and count rotations, too.) Greg and I operate in different environments, so it's not the least bit surprising we'd have different observations. You might notice a slight increase in speed, you might not. Too many variables to say for certain, but what's important is that you see for yourself in _your_ environment.

What you will _not_ find is that the wheels spin upwards of 5 times faster (or more), as is common when a prototypical steam locomotive's drivers "break free" as shown in the video I posted. The increase in speed (if any) is nowhere near that level. Heck, I don't even get that kind of increase in speed when my locos fall off the rails and the motor can turn the wheels without any load at all! 

That's my point. Yes, it may be possible to recreate a "prototypical" wheel slip with one of our locomotives, _but it doesn't happen simply because the drag increases to where the wheels slip._ You've got to combine drag with a drastic increase in the throttle in order to get that magnitude of increase in speed involved in a prototypical slip. 

Later,

K


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I am not too concerned about this phenomenon. As I mentioned my future projects are indoors on level track and not more than 10 cars behind a heavy locomotive, my locomotives are new to me and I rather hope the wheels never spin and they derrail as little as possible. But since Greg and others seem to rather enjoy the wheels losing traction I thought it might be fun to see them illustrate what they mean.
I hope you all have a very Happy New Year.

China - Sandaoling 17a - Extreme Wheelslip (1) - …:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Kevin, I agree that you cannot make it go 5 times faster like a steamer. My diesel wheel slip sounds prototypical though. The steamer, well you can hear the increase and tell something is wrong, but it's just a little more.

Todd, all I said is all I said, the statement that motor speed is more linear with power, not voltage, and that was in reaction to Kevin saying the speed would not increase AT ALL because voltage was constant. Surely you will realize that if the wheels slip, then the locomotive will be under less load (kinetic friction being less than static friction) and thus could speed up irregardless of voltage.

This is not rocket science folks. Just object when statements like "you *cannot *have wheel slip" or "the motor speed *won't* change at all", or "you *cannot *hear it speed up"...

It's not exactly the same magnitude of effect, but it DOES happen and it IS detectable.

That's all... 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

It is unfortunate that the Sierra sound card autochuff is synchronized proportionally to the track voltage rather than the power used.

So when you raise the voltage in a linear fashion, the train accelerates based on power used (square of the voltage) and the chuff rate does not keep up. I would expect that this is typical of the autochuff from other manufacture's also, especially those selling the cheaper sound cards.

Maybe this is a good this is a "good thing" in that it slows the chuff rate from what it should be (based on the speed of the engine) making a more discernible chuff at higher speeds. But it certainly isn't prototypical.

It doesn't bother me because once the train is moving at constant speed (almost immediately on the P-T-P), the eye doesn't pick up the synchronization from 5 feet anyway as the train moves behind trees, structures, etc. But if I were doing operations and running "hands on" I would be more inclined to do a wheel sensor.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I wonder if an optic sensor under the mallet and a black and white pattern on a driver would work without having to slip nylon washers over the axell?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Depends on where you are. I used to use IR sensors for my chuff triggers. They worked very well on my dad's railroad (Washington DC) and my railroad in upstate NY. When I moved out here to Colorado, they stopped working. We're a whole lot closer to the sun, and unless the sensors were in the deep shade, there was too much ambient IR from the sun bouncing around. 

Dallee Electronics sells an IR sensor trigger that works with black/white printed targets that might be worth playing with. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work and you're back to magnets. 

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Colorado is a LOT closer to the sun???

1 mile vs 93 million miles away may be a real tiny bit closer.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks K

Since my track will be indoors I suppose it will depend on the lighting I use to light up the track. (If I use any) If I only light up the room chances are I'll get good results. Right? My concern was that according to Greg as far as I understood, when using magnets the distance variation caused by the slight natural play on the mallets drive axle would cause the magnets not to close the reed switches. So I wondered if with light sensors this would not hold true.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Check the > UV index < for the various places around the US. It's not that one place is really closer to the sun, it's that place is closer to the upper (thinner) atmosphere or other local weather conditions and thus more UV rays reach the given area.

 Timbuk 3 "The future's so bright I've got to wear shades"


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Did anyone watch those Chinese extreme wheel slip videos? Fun to watch. There were three or four of them. Talk about trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result !


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_114091_-1

Check out this optical switch,it works very well here in Utah/SLC/Sandy!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Indoors, you shouldn't have any trouble with IR or visible light. IR won't cast a glow under the loco. I don't remember off hand how wide the Aristo tires are on the drivers to know if you can successfully paint enough of a white stripe with black interruptions to trigger the chuff. It'd certainly be worth experimenting. Worst case scenario, you put the sensor on a tender wheel or trailing wheel if the drivers won't work.

Later,

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I set up my optical sensor on a painted axle in the tender's front truck. Operated fine out doors in sunny Arid zona....

Wheel treads? That's silly!

John


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Colorado is a LOT closer to the sun???
> 
> 1 mile vs 93 million miles away may be a real tiny bit closer.


Actually, you're both right depending upon context. As a matter of sheer distance, 1/93,000,000 isn't much. But in terms of atmospheric density, and its ability to shield us from harmful radiation, a mile is quite a bit, particularly when that difference is measured in elevation above sea level.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry, John, I could be more clear--the backs of the wheels, not the treads. I don't know how sensitive the IR sensor would be to know if you could paint a wide enough stripe on the back of the wheel, given that it's a spoked wheel. 

Later,

K


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

This from the Dallee steam instructions is interesting.
It is not necessary to use the black / white stripe pattern, anything that will come in and out of focus to the optical reader will work! So, engines with cams installed or a piece of rectangular tubing cut and mounted to the axle may also work with proper alignment. Remember, some paints and other type markers will still reflect the infra-red light. So, just because it's black doesn't guarantee that it will work. The optical coupler comes with laser printed stripes.

It is best to rough up the surface to prevent a reflection instead of painting it black.


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