# verdict on ProDrive DCC switch machine?



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

So does anyone care to report their experiences with the ProDrive DCC switch machine train-li sells? Are they reliable? Weather proof?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've not used them long-term outdoors, that kind of thing, but when I wrote the review for GR, I found them well made, and they seemed at the very least weather resistant. I believe the instructions say to cover them in snow. I did a not-quite-torture test when I was playing with it, and it seemed to hold up well to things that would otherwise keep points from closing all the way. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin I think your review was of a different drive than I'm thinking of--train-li carries a drive which is powered from the track and has a DCC decoder in it. They show two different lines--or are they the same? I'm confused!


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike: 

Kevin had actually both drives - but the review printed was only the MasterLine. As in terms of outdoor experience - our manufacturer is backing me fully up. So far we had three revisions all effecting the improvement regarding the weather resistance. One of the strong recommendation I am writing in the manual is to also cover the top screws after programming with a rubber coating (I use our rubber compound) which we also sell. 

We feel very comfortable that we eliminated the "baby" sickness and with the free warranty replacement for 2 years your aer actually in excellent shape. 

But with all of that said, there is no drive I have met, that is maintenance free. I started out with my LGB drives (like probably everybody else) and realized that at least at the end of a season if not twice, I had to open them and "refurbish" them, and then after 3-5 years the coils have slowly rusted. The Aristo remote drive last (1-3 month?)? The new Aristo Slow Motion (a Chinese copy of our MasterLine) work how long? I recently received a couple of MasterLine drives back after 3 + years and after I opened the two rivets, and cleaned the drive it was perfectly working again. So the ProDrive is about 12 month in the market and based on our feedback the manufacturer has constantly improved it. I am running two in my layout since the begin of the season and they are working fine. 

But I also want to recognize two particular poeple from this form Greg Elmasian and RJ Deberg. Geg has tremendously helped to get the drives "programmed" with the NCE system (the system that RJ uses). Yes there were inconstancy in the NCE, their user guide - but Greg figured it all out - Thank You. 

An RJ, took a dive and plunged into buying quite a few - and he can tell you after we overcame with the manufacturer the 3 engineering changes they are holding up fine. And he knows if there is one more change we are with him all the way. We want the product to work long term and we are going to keep it working long term and will do anything we can to make that happen. 

I hope that helps and I am here to answer any questions. 

Thanks to everybody.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The pro drive needs to be programmed in "standard" mode, as opposed to the usual CV at a time mode. The Zimo system sort of automatically "gearshifts" into this mode if the usual CV programming does not work. The NCE wants to be told to try other programming modes. Once that is done, it tries the faster of the CV legacy programming modes, and drops back to the slowest one if the first one fails. 

So, after all those words, when programming the Pro Drive, and you are using the programming track, you select 1:STD mode, as opposed to the more common 2:CV mode. 

Once we knew that, the NCE unit worked perfectly in programming the direction and speed and address, the 3 CV's you can change. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I have three on order, arriving next week. It doesn't look like programming them is all that straightforward---the std mode I get, but I need to put some kind of a load on the pins? We'll see. I'll report back.

Is it possible to light an led from the switch drive to indicate the turnout position?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

And another dumb question: can I run with a loco address 1 AND a switch drive address 1?

For simplicity, I've given my locos addresses 1-6 in CV1. Can I give the switch drives address 1-3, or will that conflict with the locos?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, there is no overlap between mobile decoder addresses and stationary decoder addresses, different commands on the rails. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you need to put a load on the pins when you program? I'm not sure what I would use. Also did you ever manage to light an LED to indicate switch direction?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

First to clearify in depth what Greg said:

NMRA differentiates between Locomotive decoders and accessory decoders. Some manufacturers offer these two basic function types, and some (like Zimo) offer a hybrid - a function decoder - which reacts to locomotive addresses but can't control a motor (e.g. for lights in carsa or sounds - cattle or so - in freight cars.

Preceeding the address information is the decoder type information, hence the loco address 1 and the accesory decoder 1 will never conflict (but the function decoder will).

There are two extra pins on the circuit board inside the switch drive. These are actually to light a lantern light (optional lantern covers are available).  Since the drive uses a servo, it depends on the digital system weather you need a load or not. I use Zimo - and yes I need a load. I have heard from the manufacturer that they tested with MTS and don't need a load. I think with NCE you don't need a load if you program the address, but oyu need one for the 2 other CV values.

Programming is straight forward - finding out how to do accessory controllers with any system might not be. Greg was very helpful for finding out hwo to do it on NCE - the manual is definately not clear about it.

Axel


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's correct Axel, I was able to program the address without the load, and also in CV mode, most times. 

Most times I could also program the speed and direction CV's without the load, but could not read back. 

With the load, 100%. My load was a light bulb that drew 60 milliamps at 18v. 

This is not unusual for accessory (stationary) decoders, to require more basic programming modes. I have not experimented with the many booster options, possibly one of the aftermarket boosters would make a difference (some autorange the programming voltage) 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I managed to program one today, and it wasn't hard. No load needed on the pins. 

But I'm kind of astonished at the way you connect the track to the switch motor--there are two pins sticking out of the motor, and then a green terminal block which slides over the pins, and is held onto the pins only by friction. This arrangement seems to me to be at best extremely flimsy--it would not stay on reliably when I tried it today. The terminal block does not quite fit under the overhang of the case cover, and it forces the terminal block off the pins. There is no way to screw the terminal block to the pins. 


This seems, frankly, really terrible. There's no way this arrangement would hold up outdoorsThe old LGB switch motors had solid screw contacts built in. The only way I can see these things working is if I solder the wires to the pins. Am I missing something? I expect more from Train-li


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you try the terminal block in other orientations, I did not have this problem, but I sent all the motors to RJ. 

I'd goop the thing with silicon to keep it in place. The Europeans love those little connectors I guess! 

That said, the pins are plenty strong... you are not pulling a car with those pins.. 

When you programmed it, did you use STD mode? Did you program the speed and direction also? 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr lownote: I have not had the problem that you describe as I have not received the connectors you are referring to. I solder my wires to the pins coming out of the switch machine and then apply heat shrink to cover up and protect the connection. I have had 6 of these working for me now with out any problems. Later RJD


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The drives were from the factory desinged to be soldered. A select few of our customers wanted also a connection that can be disconnected. So we found this plugs that have the correct distance and included them on his shipment for the first time.

I personally only solder my connection, they are more reliable that way anyhow. I guess we will be stopping to include the plugs if they such a reason for displeasure.

We continue to discuss alternative solutions for a feature change in this product. One could be that the matching recepticle forthe plug could be mounted onto the board.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've ended up soldering the wires t the pins. It's not a big deal, and will work fine. The terminal blocks is not ever going to work for more than a short time unless it grabs the pins as well as the wires--I was surprised to find them offered as a solution. I soldered the wires and shrink wrapped them, and then sealed the connection and the screws with that liquid electrical tape the Home Depot sells. It's not the easiest stuff to use but it does work


I did speed and direction also, in direct mode.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If you have not done so I recommend also using it to coat the screws that hold the cover in place. I usally solder a wire on that has a round terminal on one end and this end then is connected to a Aristo rail clamp that has the extra screw on the clamp. A fast and easy way to connect and disconnect the power supply so that one can remove the switch machine quit easily. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Both Axel and RJ found out that water sitting in the screw holes (even with the screw in) can seep inside... 

Good deal on the programming Mike, I used the "standard" mode on the NCE throttle, it then tries (I believe) direct mode first, and if that fails, it falls back to paged mode. After I saw what was happening, I used direct mode each time. 

I found that I had 100% success this way, although on certain versions I needed the lamp across the internal pins. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I always add the lamp when programing but it seems that mine always comes back and says cannot read. I just go ahead and program anyway and no problems. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I have to send you my lamp! I'll put it in the mail after the train show in October... it worked every time... 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I made a simple plug to which I soldered a 24 V grain bulb.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It seems that RJ had more trouble than I did, the light I found made programming dead reliable... It drew 60 milliamps at 18v... or was it 12v? 

I have not researched the ranges of current draw that define the envelope.... 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess you gave me the wrong info to hook up a couple of bulbs. So now on to the next type of bulb to use. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did not experiment with the "Range" of current that worked... other than I picked one bulb and it did not work, then picked another and it did. 

I want to experiment so I can predict what range of current draw makes it work. 

Yours did not work with the first bulb, but 2 in parallel did... 

It would be nice if the manufacturer gave some info, but this is common. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I would love to, but this seems to be different from system to system, e.g. LGB's simple MTS programmer works without a bulb (go figure) wioth our Zimo I used a 20 mA rice grain bulb and once a LED with a 1KOhm resistor. So I encourage everybodies experience to write in and I will amend programming infomation based on system type. Thanks for the feedback.

regards
Axel


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I completely agree Axel, and I also have a programming track booster that I have not used yet that may solve the problem itself. 

The Zimo seemed to only read the switch motor in paged mode. The NCE worked in paged and direct modes. If course, I only had a few motors at my house and I did not have one of the new ones that lit the bulb in one position, like RJ has. 

Maybe I can test a few more, will you be at the October show in Pomona? 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

As mentioned, I was able to progarm them just fine with NCE in direct mode, no load on the pins

I'm interested in the optional cover, with the lamp that lights to indicate direction--I'll see you at the new Fall ECLSTS?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes to both of you. Yes I will be in Ponoma, and Yes I will bring the covers with me. If oyu come I also show the the electric coating and the rubber coating.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bring a few motors with you and I'll try to bring an NCE system and my "favorite" light bulb. Ahh, we also need to have a zimo decoder party... actually working well in my K4, but that's another topic... 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

I will do. Glad to hear about the K4.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This morning i had time to program a second drive, and again--programing track, direct mode, no lamp. 

Managed to install both and they are working well. Rain's in the forecast so we'll see...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

When you programed without the bulb, would the cvs come up? As I mentioned make sure the 4 screws are well coated to prevent water from entering in through these holes. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, in direct mode, the three cvs come up: 1, 40, and 46. They can be set individually.


I've got two heavy coats of the liquid electrical tape on the screws, and the connections are shrink wrapped and further coated with liquid tape. Only downside to the liquid tape is it shrinks down into the screw hole, which creates a little well. I may just put a few dots of plumber's putty over that, to keep water from sitting in the tiny depression


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Good Great to hear. I use the insulating coating that Axel sells. I use this to fill the screw holes. Later RJD


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## Peter Osborne (Jan 5, 2008)

Hmm... I finally got around to working with the three DCC scwitches I received a few months ago. I temporarily hooked one up to my test track, and on my MRC Prodigy Advance I entered ASSY 1, then pressed F1 and the switch moved. I then pressed F2 and heard a noise but no movement. Hmm. I unpacked a second switch which worked in both directions, so did the third. So there seems to be problem with the first switch and it may need to take a trip back home. 

Then I tried changing the address (default is 1) on the second swith to 2. Nada. Tried the Prog and Main (Ops Mode) options with no effect. Hooked up my programming booster. Still nothing. So went back to read this thread and saw that with the NCE a load was required. So could be I need an 18 v bulb in parallel with the decoder for it to work? Anyone tried programming these with a MRC Prodigy Advance yet? 

Peter.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You need lamp connected to internal pins, not external, but have not experimented further. 

Also, you cannot program on main, you need program track programming. You also need direct mode, or paged mode, not the normal cv programming mode. 

There are 3 modes on programming track... 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Pardon my utter ignorance here...

What does a light bulb (lamp) have to do with the ability to "program" something?

Why do I keep seeing references to a "programming track"?

It all seems to me to be a bunch of hocus-pokus flim-flam, yet I keep seeing references to these things by people that I assume actually know what they are talking about (as well as occasionally by people that are merely parroting what they were told because when they follow "the formulae" (and chant the proper incantations, cross their fingers the right way and "do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves about") it works, even though they obviously have less than absolutely no understanding of why)?


Does the lamp provide electrical current (limited it due to its internal resistance) to a circuit that is normally disconnected, or could some other form of illumination (flashlight, table lamp, sun, etc.) work?... yes, I know that last is probably a bit silly, but why don't the manufactures supply a small "dongle" with an appropriate resistance to fit over a set of pins to provide this function... or is the illumination from the bulb used to tell the user something? Does it have to be an incandescent or could a solid state device (LED) suffice?

What is different about a "Programming Track" and the plain ol' track that the train runs on? Does it have additional "rails" for extra contacts to the device being programmed? Is it assumed it would be cleaner than a track in the garden and thus provide better contact for signal purity? It seems odd that one would have to move the device being programmed from the "Running" track to a "Programming" track to do any programming and especially frustrating to have to be done repeatedly if one is experimenting with different settings, what with the difficulty some people (me) tend to have in getting these toy trains properly on the rails.

I'd be willing to do the hokey-pokey (and turn myself about) if I thought it actually did something to my advantage, but all I have ever seen it do is make Hayden Fry and a bunch of rough and tumble college football players look like silly gooses.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

First of all the "Main" track has every single device on there. A lot of equipment (especially the one which dicovers programming automatically) can only with limited featured be programmen on Main espcially the address change command, becuase Main is shared with all other devices and reprogramming the address would affect them all. This is how DCC is, becasue it is a simple and for the most part uni-directional technology (it is 100 times more primitve than TCO/IP the protocol your are using to access computers).

The programming track assures that there is only one device on there.

The resistance is necessary because many devices (in this case the serov) don't have not enough of a "load" in order to trigger a simple feedback "impuls". Some automated functionality in these DCC stations is looking for that feedback in order to confirm proper programming (a user convennience feature). Wwithout the feedback you might actually succedd in programming you might not (some commands are two fold and the confirmation is required for the second part) and hence never gets executed without the feedback.

Th elmap can also be an LED as long as oyu put the required resistor in front of it.


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## Peter Osborne (Jan 5, 2008)

Axel, is there information/diagram as to which pins within the switch need the resistance/bulb across them? And what voltage will the bulb be subjected to? I now understand the need to procure some liquid electrical tape to reseal the switch after this programming exercise.

Peter.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Pete, there are only two "unoccupied" pins on the circuit board, which are actually used for the option lantern when you utilize the add-on lantern conversion kit.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been a couple weeks and they are working perfectly for me--switching reliably, no trouble

When I programmed mine I soldered leads to the pins, then plugged the leads directly into the "programming track" outputs on my NCE command station. Programmed them directly that way--worked like a charm. Then installed them on the main.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04 Oct 2009 11:53 AM 
Pardon my utter ignorance here...

What does a light bulb (lamp) have to do with the ability to "program" something?

Why do I keep seeing references to a "programming track"?

It all seems to me to be a bunch of hocus-pokus flim-flam, yet I keep seeing references to these things by people that I assume actually know what they are talking about (as well as occasionally by people that are merely parroting what they were told because when they follow "the formulae" (and chant the proper incantations, cross their fingers the right way and "do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves about") it works, even though they obviously have less than absolutely no understanding of why)?


Does the lamp provide electrical current (limited it due to its internal resistance) to a circuit that is normally disconnected, or could some other form of illumination (flashlight, table lamp, sun, etc.) work?... yes, I know that last is probably a bit silly, but why don't the manufactures supply a small "dongle" with an appropriate resistance to fit over a set of pins to provide this function... or is the illumination from the bulb used to tell the user something? Does it have to be an incandescent or could a solid state device (LED) suffice?

What is different about a "Programming Track" and the plain ol' track that the train runs on? Does it have additional "rails" for extra contacts to the device being programmed? Is it assumed it would be cleaner than a track in the garden and thus provide better contact for signal purity? It seems odd that one would have to move the device being programmed from the "Running" track to a "Programming" track to do any programming and especially frustrating to have to be done repeatedly if one is experimenting with different settings, what with the difficulty some people (me) tend to have in getting these toy trains properly on the rails.

I'd be willing to do the hokey-pokey (and turn myself about) if I thought it actually did something to my advantage, but all I have ever seen it do is make Hayden Fry and a bunch of rough and tumble college football players look like silly gooses.




CT: I'm really trying to understand the motivation for the bulk of your post.

On the surface it seems to be a bash of the entire technology, but I know you better than that, I think...

On DCC, there are several ways to change settings in "decoders"... the earliest way is a separate "programming track" which runs at low voltage. More modern and more capable decoders can be programmed on the main line, where the constant DCC power is applied.

I'm surprised you are asking about a programming track, surely it's not the first time you have encountered this term on a DCC forum? Outputs for a separate programming track are as old as the DCC technology... what, 20 years?

Mike explained the reason for the light, it is just a simple load on the programming track, some decoders, especially inexpensive ones (not cheap) like function controllers, do not place enough load on the programming track outputs.

I really wonder why you put "hocus pocus flim flam".... boy, would I get a HUGE ration from the Aristo boys if I said that about the new TE. 

Yes, it is not necessary for everyone to know WHY adding a load such as a light bulb may be required. I think it's perfectly fine not to. Do all the battery guys REALLY understand exactly how a set of filters and chokes work to make their system have better range? I'll bet the number of people on this forum that really know this is about 10.

The don't NEED to know, just as not everyone NEEDS to know why a light bulb works or is necessary.

In the dark ages of DCC, you could only program on a programming track, and clean track was absolutely required. Nowadays that is not necessary, I can do all my QSI programming on the main line, even while the loco is in motion. You can buy a decoder from Stan Ames' wife and the damn thing will run for 30 seconds on plastic rails...

Most of all the "scare" and perceived difficulty is old history. The DCC decoder in the pro-drive is a new product, and apparently the latest versions do not need the extra load on the programming track.

"I'd be willing to do the hokey-pokey (and turn myself about) if I thought it actually did something to my advantage, but all I have ever seen it do is make Hayden Fry and a bunch of rough and tumble college football players look like silly gooses."

So, that last statement above... you do not run DCC, do you? I don't run live steam. With all the work preparing a live steamer for running, I think you are already doing the "hokey-pokey" FAR in excess of what I am doing...









So, please excuse me if you were trying to take a light hearted shot at something you did not understand, but just as I don't try to scare people away from battery and MTH and live steam, maybe this "rant" did not do anything productive for the hobby.

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

C.T. You may want to read up on DCC before making the goofy comments that you made about the programing track. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I just had one fail this weekend. The handheld sends DCC commands, and shows the position as either "normal" or "reversed." But nothing happens--the point rails don't move. I have a second one that's working fine

Disappointing--that's less then 6 months before it failed. I had the screw holes on the top well sealed. I'll have to put it on the bench and figure out what went wrong. It's possible a solder joint went bad, I suppose, and that would be my fault.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

took it out and opened it up--lots of water inside, the circuit board is wet. That explains the failure. What are the odds of it working once it dries out?


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

not good


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep--just tried it, dead.

Not good, really. I got a couple months out of it before it failed. I'll try reprogramming it when I get a chance, but I doubt that will work. 

I have a spare one but I'm not too optimisitic 


Annoying. Is there a good alternative anyone knows about?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They have never come back from the dead when it's water on the board. 

Did yours have a "pad" underneath the board? 

Did you have extra drain holes? 

Those are the first 2 mods that Axel has been doing. 

The latest is coating the entire board, but it's a thing coating. Axel is trying to get them completely encapsulated. 

The other failure is the position contacts in the motor, the motor should be on a little pad above the bottom, and that will help. 

Bottom line, if your box was full of water, then you needed to have the extra drain holes drilled, and they need to be larger diameter. 

RJ (and me over the phone, and doing more of the programming stuff) has been through all of this. It is a stepwise improvement. Axel will replace your board no charge. 

Regards, Greg 

(better? pneumatic, indestructable, but about double the cost when you are all through, it's what I use)


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg: 

There are two little weep holes, one directly under the circuit board, on on the other side of the case, away from the electronics. How many should there be? There's a little bit of silicone under the circuit board--is that the "pad?" There's silicone on the motor itself. 

I have an extra one around here somewhere. I will maybe try taking the circuit board out and coating the whole thing, top and bottom, with that liquid electrical tape Home Depot sells. 

I'm not really sure these would ever work without being completely encapsulated. I really like Axel, he's a straight up guy but this product seem to me to need a little work


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 17 Nov 2009 08:40 AM 
took it out and opened it up--lots of water inside, the circuit board is wet. That explains the failure. What are the odds of it working once it dries out? 

Water is basically a high resistance short circuit. When a circuit is wet voltages can get carried anywhere when power is applied. Thus a Voltage may get to some component that cannot handle that level and may be damaged (usually a semiconductor, such as a diode, transistor or integrated circuit [which is just a bunch of diodes and transistors all on one substrate])... the damage is usually a "hole" (though microscopic) punched through the semiconductor.

You might be lucky in that when you applied power, the copious amount of water may have carried all voltages to all points and that may have prevented a high potential (Voltage) from being applied "across" the various points (same voltage at all points) and thus no damage might have occurred.

Let it dry out and see what it does. Make sure it is completely dry before you apply power or you may burn out some component because a small amount of water may short out only a few points in the circuit, which would apply different voltages across a component.

I would recommend that you actually wash the circuitry with clean distilled water and then pour alcohol over it to absorb and flush away the water. Then let it dry 24 hours before you apply power again.

BUT... note that some components will absorb water and distort (usually coil forms) and depending on the circuitry that may disable it, either because it breaks a solder or weld joint, or because the component will change in electrical value (a coil will change in shape which affects its inductance value) and this may detune a radio circuit to the point where it no longer works at the designed frequency (radio receiver will no longer receive transmitted signals at the designated frequency).

ALSO... even though I recommend the alcohol flush, note that some components may dissolve in alcohol and that again will alter the circuit similar to what absorbing water will do.

The reason I recommend the wash and flush is to be sure to remove any other possible contaminants that might, over time, dissolve parts. I base this on experience...

To wit: 

Where I worked, in the wee hours of the night one Spring, Maintenance was restarting the air-conditioning system. They had drained the system the previous Fall. They opened the inlet valve to the heat exchanger that was above my Computer Lab, but they forgot to close the drain valve... they then went to another building to take their "Break". A painter happened to be walking past the Lab and said he heard water running and thought; "That's not a bathroom!". He opened the door to the lab and saw water flowing down from the ceiling. He happened to have a plastic drop cloth under his arm and he said he "just took it and threw it over the tables" where all the computer terminals were. It opened nicely and covered "most" of them, just as the entire false ceiling (pressed corn-board acoustic tile... now very mushy) collapsed onto the tables and computers.

His drop cloth covered nearly everything... he saved THOUSANDS of dollars worth of equipment. Being as that I was the Manager of the Lab, I got a phone call about the problem and I came in about 5 AM to see what had happened. By the time I got there, Maintenance had shut off all power to the room and cleaned everything up... the major evidence of there having been a problem was the missing ceiling. I looked around and noted one minor water streak on the screen of one terminal monitor. I picked up the keyboard in front of it to look to see if there was water under it; there wasn't... but, oh dear, in picking up the keyboard I tipped it toward me... and had to go home to change my pants! I had dumped yellowish anti-freeze water down the front of my pants and there was no way I was going to go through the day looking like that!

When I came back I very gingerly checked all the other keyboards and equipment but that keyboard was the only one that got wet. I took it to a sink and took the case apart. I washed everything in the sink. I noted that there were these little streaks of red, brown, green, etc. colors going down the drain. I managed to get a small sample of these streaks and discovered they were the color bands from the resistors on the circuit board. The anti-freeze and water had washed them off the resistors!

I used compressed air to blow-dry the all the parts, put it back together and took it back to the lab. I restored power to the room and restarted the computers (two HP-1000 minicomputer systems) and hooked up the keyboard to the terminal.

Everything worked just fine!

Now the REST OF THE STORY....

Almost exactly one year later, it happened again! Not quite the same scenario as to cause (a slow leak filled the "drip pan" and the weight caused it to collapse and dump its content on the Lab), but this time no Painter happened to be walking past! The way the pan collapsed, most of the water missed the main computer racks and the (washing machine sized) disk drives... but that poor terminal keyboard got completely filled again. This time with dirty, dusty, moldy, filthy water.

I was smart enough to not tip that keyboard toward me! This time we called HP to send a team to check things out. They came in and took over the clean up! They took the computers and racks apart to verify what got wet and dry it off. The racks got wet, but none of the computers got water "in" them and only one of the disk-drives had water "on" it.

When they got to that keyboard I told them the story of the previous year. They wouldn't believe it had been still working! We drained the keyboard into a bucket and took it apart again. They noted the missing color bands from the resistors. They also noted that the printed circuit traces on the board; though still firmly attached to the board, they were eaten way along the edges. The edges looked very much like an audio trace on an oscilloscope!

We dried the keyboard and tried it out and it still worked. But they replaced it based on the damage from the year before, figuring it would eventually have a problem with some circuit trace being etched in two.

I tell that (long and boring) story to warn you that even though your component may work after you clean it up and dry it out, it may have a shorter life than the others that have not been "submerged".


BTW: I have managed to successfully salvage cell phones, iPods, cameras, etc. that have been submerged (only one was in a toilet, and thankfully, it had just been flushed!), by washing and then drying them thoroughly before putting the battery back in. As far as I know, they are still working, though I know some have been replaced due to perceived obsolescence.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's pretty amazing. Your explanation makes sense. I had a loco with an Aristo 75mhz decoder on it take a dive into our pond. Sank like a stone. I fished it out, dried out the decoder, and to my surprise it worked.


Axel has asked me to mail the drive back, and will send a replacement. Excellent service from Train Li


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The water itself is not such a big deal, it will evaporate. However, water brings with it dissolved ionic solids that DON'T go away by themselves. Some of this stuff also absorbs water easily so that even if the deposited stuff doesn't conduct when dry, it can re-adsorb moisture later and then it can conduct. 

Some of the stuff can also be corrosive and slowly eat away at conductors and materials that were not initially damaged. 

In the case of most electronics, once it's been wet with less than lab grade chemicals, water included, the item is usually toast. Maybe not immediately, but later for sure.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

All very interesting scenarios however I have been deeply involved with Axle to improve on the switch machines. I presently have 10 of these units and had 8 fail but through testing and working with Axle we have solved the problem. I have had 7 of these working now for over 6 months and holding up during monsoon rains and High humidity. 

Each motor case should have four holes drilled in all four corners and should be 1/8 inch in diameter to allow any moisture to drain. The water inside was from condensation and not from water entering the screw holes. I had considerable condensation in the first batch of switch motors and it shorted out the circuit ASAP. 


One of the things I had come up with is putting a pad under the switch motor to keep it off the floor of the housing and complete encapsulation of the motor and circuit board. the thin coating that was applied at the factory was insufficient to prevent water damage to components. 


Thanks to Axle for his patients and support in solving these problems with unit. I am very confident that future failure will be few and far between. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope so--I had another one fail yesterday. I'll be boxing it up and shipping it back to Axel. I asked about these before I bought them and was told they were reliable, and that the bugs were worked out. 

Are there any alternative DCC switch motors out there?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a feeling that any of these switch motors that use motors and gears are not going to last as long as a simple electromagnet type like LGB. There's a good reason there are thousands of them out there still in service. It would be nice to think of a way to slow them down with some sort of air or viscous 'bladder' though...got to put the old thinking cap on. I've always used manual switch throws but I'm about to try the LGB single channel decoder with the LGB switch drive so I'll try to report on how they work out long term. 

Keith


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote:

You will find that Axle is very helpful when returning the defective unit. All 12 of mine are now in service and have all the updates that I mentioned. Even if I get condensation inside the case all the electronics are now protected with the insulating sealant. The nice thing about these switch macines s that you can program them to operate slow or fast Late RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I loved them when they worked! The slow speed is cool. I'm not giving up yet.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep hang in there as I'm like you these are cool working switches. Later RJD


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Meik Schroeder (Owner of TrainLine 45 in Germany) and I are working hard to further improve on the construction of the switch drive. 

In the meantime (in particular with RJ's patience and help) we believe that we countered the weather conditions in the way as our little "Weather Proofing" application guide is showing.
ProDrive DC & DCC Weather Proofing Notes


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There are some servo-based DCC-compatible switch motors I reviewed last year (?) by ANE Models. http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=1224 

They use regular R/C servos to actually move the switch points, so if you can find waterproof servos, the contol electronics can be safely housed out of the weather. Control is nice and slow (variable, programmable) and you program the limits of the throw. It's fairly simple to set up. The two big catches - mounting the servo (it's more designed for under-the-table installations), and finding weatherproof servo motors. I'm assuming they exist for boating applications, but I've not looked extensively. 

Later, 

K


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The pro drive is a lower profile and more adaptable to out door use then the one you have shown. I believe the R/C units would be over bearing and not good looking.
Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As this thread is intended to be solely about the Prodrive, and not something else, I think it's common courtesy to stay on the topic, albeit the question from Mike about alternatives.


But since Kevin brought this up, the switch motor Kevin reviewed is larger, not waterproofed, no waterproof housing for the electronics, and one servo and electronics WITHOUT a DCC decoder is about $60, the 4 unit decoder is $21. I think the only superior part could be the _possibility _of finding an alternate waterproof servo.

The Prodrive is a single, self contained unit with the servo, electronics and linkage in one package.


So while it's sort of interesting that the product exists, it surely does not look like an alternative, since there is no attempt at waterproofing anything at all, besides all the other features.

Since this is not a thread intended to compare the ProDrive with anything else, my future contributions will be on the ProDrive and helping others solve problems and hopefully some new information on the upcoming lighted indicator and new CVs to control it.

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

FYI, Greg was so kind to correct my weather proofing guide which will be update over the weekend. He is right that 1/4" might be a bit too large and I went back to the drill press and found that I actually used a 3/16". I might not recommend 1/8", but 3/16" seem to do an excellent job.

He also said that the term Varnish can give the wrong impression, however, the manufacturer used that term Bottle of Insulating Varnish. (which we carry) the nice part is that is viscosity is more of a Varnish than a liquid tape and therefore "crawls" nice into every niche. The ticker Rubber coating (also sold by us Black Rubber Coating) we use in the screw holes before we tighten the screws.

Also tests in Germany after immersing the electronic and the drive with coating for 48 hours have shown that after they dried they worked fine.

I (and also Meik) thank everybody so far for their contribution and we both are certain that we have learned a lot, and that going forward this drive will stand the weathers anywhere.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, my post was a response to Mike's inquiry about alternative DCC switch controls. Common courtesy allows for answers to ancillary questions at the expense of keeping the thread completely on topic. The alternative system I mentioned is not without its drawbacks, but at the end of the day, it does the same thing--offers DCC control of switch points. In that the control electronics need not be located at the switch--only the servo motor--they can be housed anywhere (within the limits of how long the servo leads can be and still function properly). Traxxas makes a waterproof micro-servo which can easily fit between two ties to control the switch (Traxxas VXL Micro Waterproof Servo 2080, c. $24) which would be suitable. So, given a waterproof servo, and control electronics that--while not waterproof by themselves--can be housed remotely out of the elements, the system does indeed meet the requirements of a completely waterproof system for controlling switches. Whether its worth the extra cost is up to the individual. 

If Axel can make the required improvements to his product to make it waterproof, it will do the same thing in a much smaller, more convenient package. But absent those improvements, it's got serious limitations of its own as evidenced by the testimony on this thread. 

Later, 

K


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd have to say that major improvements have been made to the pro drives as I have mentioned. I noted above in previous post that I have 11 in service with all the necessary improvements and they have withstood the heavey rains we have had this year. Apparently some folks do not read all the post to see what really is taken place. I have provided major input to solving the problems and mine are working flawlessly. I'm sure the company that Axel is dealing with will make the improvements to make these totally bullet proof. These motors will be the best bang for the buck and very reasonable in price and vary easily installed. The forthcomming of the added direction light will also be another plus. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did give you a caveat in my first sentence Kevin, so you really did not have to reinforce that you were "legal"... 

But apparently my point was missed, the Prodrive is a waterproof unit already, with some issues that need improving. 

The electronics with the Traxxas are not even enclosed, obviously not waterproof. 

If you use the same logic, you could add a waterproof enclosure to the Prodrive... 

So for an outdoor drive as compared to the Prodrive, the Traxxas with no linkage, no enclosure for the servo electronics, no enclosure for the DCC decoder, and higher cost is an alternative unless you consider the cost and time to make it work. 

That was my point. It is technically an alternative, but in comparison, it does not seem to have any advantages, only possible potential if you go to a lot of extra work and expense. 

And I do object to the word "serious limitations", you have a report from one person about a failure, and you have little direct experience nor a wealth of feedback from many people. 

You argued over a very minor point on whether knowing which way a loco would take off and would not even accept it as an advantage, but you are now using the term "Serious limitation" in a case where you have less data and many more working units than failed. 

I think this is not a serious limitation, but a small problem that is being worked out to "bulletproof" status. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I did give you a caveat in my first sentence Kevin, so you really did not have to reinforce that you were "legal"... 
A misunderstanding. I read it as you taking exception to me even suggesting an alternative. My apologies. 

The electronics with the Traxxas are not even enclosed, obviously not waterproof. 
Greg, don't confuse the Traxxas servo motor with the entire system. The Traxxas servo motor is _just_ the servo motor as you'd put in an R/C car, boat, plane, whatever. It can be made by whoever. If you're going to use it to run a switch, you want to get one that's waterproof. The Traxxas is one example I found in a quick Google search for waterproof servos. That is a completely independent component from the control interface made by ANE models. Those components are in no way, shape, or form waterproof as they come out of the box as they're just the circuit boards. If you're going to use them in an outdoor environment, you need to enclose them in something. That something can range from a watertight box to a lineside structure to the inside wall of your garage--anything that keeps the components dry. _Obviously_ exposed circuit boards aren't going to be waterproof. I never said they were. Given that the servo motor component is waterproof, and the control electronics are intended to be housed in a waterproof environment, the system should hold up to the elements as the only "exposed" component is the servo motor itself. Yes, it's a bit more work, but at the end of the day, the points move the same. 

If you use the same logic, you could add a waterproof enclosure to the Prodrive... 
Yes, you could easily put the ProDrive in a lineside structure and run control rods to all the switches. This is actually quite common in England (not necessarily with the ProDrive) because that's how many prototype railroads switch throws work; controlled from a central tower via very long--and often interlocked--rods. But the issue with the ProDrive is that the throw mechanism is inherently part of the control mechanism. The weaknesses of the enclosure allow water to seep in through the throw elements and affect the control elements. By separating them as two separate entities, you eliminate that issue. You do have to do the extra work of a separate enclosure for the control elements. As I said--it's not without drawbacks, but if the Traxxas (or whoever's) servo motors are indeed waterproof, and you properly encase the control elements out of the weather, then you've got a good system that does the same thing. No, it's not as neat and tidy as one small little black box, but it meets the core requirements of the system. 

you are now using the term "Serious limitation" in a case where you have less data and many more working units than failed. 
When I did the review on this unit, I thought there were a few things that might adversely affect the overall weatherproofness of the unit. Axel suggested that one would be well advised to cover the units if they were to be under snow because water could seep in and cause damage. Mike's experience bears this out. I don't know if Mike's experience is unique, but that Axel is taking the steps he's taking to greatly improve the watertightness of future units would seem to indicate that this is a problem that warrants being addressed at the manufacturing level. 

As I stated, if the improvements are being/have been made to new releases of the ProDrive, then absolutely it's a great system and Mike's original question would seem to have been addressed by the manufacturer. I have every confidence that Axel stands behind his products and wants them to be top drawer. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think you need to piddle with the little stuff Kevin, I'm certainly not going to waste my time quoting a single sentence and responding with a paragraph. 

I think you may have missed all the important points brought up by RJ and I. The water problem is not from water seeping inside, that is completely handled by the very first modification by Axel, who made it based on RJ's findings, there is a screw near the board, sealing the 4 screws on top handles the problem entirely. 

The problem is that like any enclosure subject to heating and cooling, condensation can and does form inside the enclosure. 



This can cause extreme humidity in the next "heating" cycle, and this shorts out components on the main board and can also cause problems with the limit switch in the motor. 

More holes in the bottom to let water drain was another early upgrade. 

Raising the board with a silicon pad eliminates the problem of the board sitting in a puddle of water. 

The current last item is to encapsulate the board to eliminate the situation of extreme humidity causing trouble with the electronics. 

The reasons I know this is the constant communication with RJ who has more of these than anyone, and who discovered the problems early on and has been giving suggestions and testing with Axel. 

This is the factual information, not speculation or an intelligent guess. 


I notice you quoted part of my response, but have not addressed the point I made, I think your estimation of "Serious limitation" is wrong, many units work well, but Axel is striving for bulletproof. 

I do not believe that phrase is justified by any experience you have, which is very little in this specific area. When you get 9 or more of them, use them through several cycles of seasons, and take active participation to analyze the guts and see what happened, then I would respect your use of such a strong phrase. 

Until then, I will strongly disagree with your assessment.


Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If the problems are addressed, it's a non-issue. Mike's concerns are resolved, and he can replace his faulty ones with the re-engineered ones (which I have no doubt Axel would be more than willing to do) and enjoy years of reliable operation--no need to look further at viable, albeit pricier alternatives. Case closed. 

You're free to disagree with my assessment--as I am with yours.  

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a step-wise process, and Train-Li has been making steady progress. The interesting thing is how much trouble condensation is. 

One disadvantage of modern electronics is that with miniaturization, the spacing of conductors and parts becomes closer, so it's easier to have conductive paths with less moisture. 

I think it's better to encourage a company to do better when they are obviously trying than to give a seal of non-approval. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I got my replacement drives yesterday, and hope to have a chance to get them installed this weekend. The new drives have more and larger holes for condensation and the red "varnish" coating. 

Although it's a little annoying to buy something that doesn't work right the first time, I have to give all credit and praise to Axel for continuing to work on this and for such excellent customer support. Other large scale manufacturers just say "send it in" and then send it back with the basic problem unresolved (loctite, anyone?). But Axel is working with customers and manufacturers to perfect the thing, which is good


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This is really pretty irritating--I got the three drives back from Axel, and tried to program them just now--none of them would work. I put them on the programming track and tried every mode possible--"direct," "paged" "standard," and "cv," and got the message "cannot read CV" every time. Then I went back and put a 61 ohm resistor on the 2 pins that stick out of the board--the ones that look like they are ready to accept a plug. Still nothing.

When I first got them I was able to program them easily, with no trouble at all, in "direct" mode. No resistors, no lamps. This is really pretty absurd.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Low note: Ignore the can not read CV and go to the next step. Just hit enter. You will find that you can now do the programing. I had the same problem till I learned to ignore the first response. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The first "cannot read CV" is the manufacturer id, every one I have tested recently did not read that back. Just hit enter. 

Use direct mode (standard mode actually tries paged and direct), CV mode never works, although I got it to program CV1 once. 

I experimented and a 50 ohm resistor worked best on the last batch. 

The very early ones, which is what I think you had, programmed in more modes and sometimes without a resistor. RJ and I have programmed somewhere in the neighborhood of about 20 between us, and we have shared several so both of us have tested the exact same unit. 

We were both very surprised when you said you could program yours with no lamp/resistor. Axel has always had to use one... and has always indicated that using it is necessary.

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Greg, I'll try that later this week


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## robsmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Hello from UK 
I have a Bachmann Big Hauler/Annie Baldwin anniversary edition which I want to convert to DCC. Have requested information from Bachmann (awaiting answer 2 months so far!) re dismantling loco - don't want to cause any damage - can anyone direct me to good source of instructions for this? 

Thanks in andvance 

Rob Morgan


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Rob, you posted this in the wrong place. The Annie is not all that hard to get apart but it's probably my least favorite to put back together. I think Greg's website has some info on it, also George Schreyer's. Taking it apart won't damage it. There are only I think 6 screws altogether. The annoying part for me has always been getting the airtanks back on


I installed DCC in mine, it was a matter of tracing all the wires. Not that hard. 


Try this link


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I've even had to use the resistor or the light to program the newer ones. Later RJD


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I did have one that would only program without a resistor. 
Must have had a very leaky part in that one.


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