# wonder what others felt about trailing sound



## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

I have read some people comment that they can tell when sound is coming from a tender or a trailing car and therefore a speaker should be in the locomotive to sound as realistic as possible. Just wondered how you people felt about that?

Have been slowly getting some parts together to do a trailing sound car that could be used behind several locomotives. Have thought about the idea of having a speaker in the locomotive with the sound unit in the trailing car or the speaker in the trailing car either firing downward, as is usually seen in sound tenders, or on the front of the car firing towards the locomotive. To me, seems a bit difficult to locate a speaker in a locomotive and make it not visible and also difficult to put the speaker in the front of a trailing car and have it fire towards the locomotive and not be seen. But needless to say, want the sound to be as good as possible.

I will have to say that the comments i read regarding sound tenders were from guys on a layout sound group I used to be on where many of the guys seemed like they were trying to audition for a job at Bose designing sound systems rather than doing model railroading and some called themselves an "enginear" like they were something special in the sound world.

Doug


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I can 'tell' when the sound is farther back, but both my engine's sound speakers are in the tenders..
If I'm at the 10' rule, it sounds fine, but up close in a yard setting, it's noticeable if you look for it, but can also slide by if you don't listen for it.
I decided that sound was nice, but not my foremost desire. I use canned sound cards. RPM controls which sounds when...most of the time I have it turned way down as a fill in rather than earth shaking loud.


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## choochoowilly (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm with Total Wrecker, 10' rule, best sound I've had is when I placed the system in the tender, actually a trailing car on a porter and the speaker glued in the roof of the cab, but after 30 minutes of noise most of the time I turn it down or off


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the battery, airwire reciever, phoenix sound board, and speaker in a trailing reefer car. The speaker is at the end of the car closest to the tender, so its as close to the loco and tender as i can place it in the car. 

I'm totally fine with it! 
90% of the time you cant tell the sound is coming from the reefer car and not from the locomotive.
For the majority of "normal" viewing: engine coming at you at an angle, going away at anl angle, or going past you at more than 10 feet away: you cant really tell that the sound is coming from the trailing car.

When you *can* tell is if your head is down at track level, one to five feet away from the locomotive as it passes you..when you are that close, and at eye-level with the locomotive, then you can tell where the sound is coming from as the locomotive and car pass by. But..IMO its not a major concern. Most of the time, viewers wont know or care!  from most regular "public" viewing angles and distances, you cant really tell and its not an issue. Im going to use this one sound and battery car to power five of the my steam locomotives.











thanks,
Scot


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

I have no issues or even notice it is a few inches behind. I use mostly all small engines and the sound coming from a trailing car is better than a lesser quality due to a small system. Properly done you can use a trailing car for multiple engines.
Dennis


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

I will add that the guys that made the comments about being able to tell that the sound is not in the correct place are smaller scale indoor guys. Spect they are very near the locomotives and the locomotives are more like waste or higher levels, so they are closer than a five foot rule. On that group, there were some that fancied themselves as experts and they had their hard "expert" rules of how sound must be done on a model railroad and they did not like the idea that I would disagree with them on an outdoor garden railroad and needless to say, some dismissed our hobby as just play. I pointed out to them that our trees are real and not bottle brushes and the dirt and rock are real and not foam and plaster and the bridges many times are real wood and metal and we plow real snow, so maybe they are the ones that just play. They wept.

I have one of the LGB Stainz locomotives with the speaker on the ceiling of the cab. Makes the sound come from the locomotive, but can see the speaker enclosure. Might paint it black some day to try and hide it.

Mounting the speaker in the ceiling of the cab is a way to go, but like the LGB Stainz, might end up[ seeing the speaker. There are a big variety of speakers to buy, and some sound much better than others. Probably the better sounding ones would be more difficult to hide and usually the speakers sound better in properly designed enclosures. I have my eye on some 2 inch speakers form Aura on Parts Express to go with my mylcocsound boards. 

I also wondered if one could ever get any acceptable sound using an exciter. Have thought about buying one to experiment with.

Having accumulated a variety of locomotives from years of train show and fleabay shopping, to me, installing separate sound units in every one is not an option. .Have long thought of a "universal sound car" trailing car. I would make a car with interchangeable bodies so wouldn't have to use the same looking car every time. Also thought about putting the sound unit in a project box with jacks making it able to be easily removed and mounted in different cars.

Doug


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

"Talking Tender Syndrome"

Disclaimer - I'm a sound junkie.

All of my sound installations in large scale in the past three years or so have had the speakers mounted either exclusively in the boiler, or two speakers with one speaker in the boiler (smokebox) and the other in the tender for added bass presence. I used to be a "put everything in the tender" person mostly for the sheer convenience of it, but I was doing an installation in my K-27 which has LOADS of room in the boiler and a gazillion wires running between the loco and tender, two of which became surplus with this installation. There was no reason not to put the speaker in the boiler. 

I was hooked. The difference is amazing. Again, I'm a sound junkie, and I often am within 4 or 5 feet of my loco as I run it. At that distance, I can tell when the speaker is in the tender, and while it's not objectionable, there's still something just a bit off-kilter with it. My diesels and small (tenderless) steamers all have speakers where the sound "should come from," so why not my larger engines. I've still got 5 steamers with "talking tender syndrome," though it's unlikely I will bother retrofitting them unless I upgrade their sound/control systems down the road. 

What's right for you as a modeler? Depends on how you run your trains and how important sound is to that operation. If you just want ambient noise from your locos as they run around the railroad, you're not likely to care that the sound is coming from the tender or even from a trailing car. If you're obsessed with sound as I am, it's likely something you're going to want to consider.

Later,

K

PS, Doug, I did an install on a Stainz last month with a 1" speaker in an enclosure stuck right behind the backhead of the boiler. (I drilled the backhead out so you could hear the sound.) A-MAZ-ing! I could probably fit a 1.5" speaker in there, but I didn't have one on hand. A good enclosure makes a world of difference in sound quality.


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

K, I do think that having the best sound possible makes for the best modeling enjoyment and as you are a sound fan, perhaps we should start another topic on sound from buildings and scenes just for interest. And a "for what it is worth", the people on that layout sound group used to shun on board sound, as their small trains didn't have that available for them, and usually only spoke of sound from buildings and also discussed topics as how to do a Doppler effect for passing trains with stationary sound. When I spoke of G on board sound, I was reminded by the list dictator (I mean moderator/owner) that the group was about ";layout sound", as from hidden speakers in buildings. Then when the DCC sound came out, they acted like they have been into on board sound for a long time and are experts. As I mentioned, some called themselves, "enginears", get the "ears" part.

I see where your drilled holes in the Stainz wouldn't be all that noticeable. Where do you install your speakers in the other locomotives, how do you keep the speakers from being noticeable, as how do you cover them, and what do you do for enclosures? Do you think that having a speaker in the front of a trailing car firing at the rear of the locomotive might give an acceptable illusion that the sound is coming from the locomotive?

How about this challenge, puffing smoke on a steamer with in sync sound???? That would be very nice.

Doug


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Puffing smoke in sync with sound is very much a reality. Zimo, TCS, QSI, ESU, and Massoth all make decoders which power fan-driven smoke units in time with the chuff. Cool stuff. Being battery power, I don't usually bother with smoke because it eats power like crazy, but the effect is pretty neat. I've also seen folks direct smoke to cylinder cocks, whistles, and generators in sync with the sounds. 

In terms of the speakers in my locos, if they're in the boiler, sometimes the boiler becomes its own enclosure once everything is assembled, so I don't build any kind of formal enclosure in those cases. I do try to seal the edges of the speaker to the boiler with putty or modeling clay when possible. If I do need an enclosure, it's usually just a short piece of plastic pipe of the appropriate diameter and maybe an inch or two long. Speaker openings for the sound to be heard would be through the backhead or smokestack. In diesels, it's usually through the fuel tank or behind a radiator grill. 

A speaker in the trailing car would be on par with a speaker in the tender. You're not going to notice it from 10' away, but up close, you'll be able to tell. On my On30, I've got speakers in the front of each of my tenders as close to the loco as possible. It's only 2 - 3" behind the loco, and I can still tell. I haven't gotten brave/crazy enough to play with speakers in the smokeboxes of those locos yet. I'm thinking I can probably get away with a small "sugar cube" speaker in the smokebox and balance it with the speaker in the tender as I do some of my large scale stuff. The tender speaker will give me the bass, the sugar cube in the smokebox will give me just enough audible high end to shift the perceived origin point ahead an inch or two. 

Later,

K


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

K, so you mentioned the sugar cube and that was mentioned on the layout sound group once DCC sound became popular. Just wondered how small a speaker you think is good enough to use outdoors? Like would the sugar cube sound be too small for outdoors?

I heard sound used on an ON30 Bachmann Porter at a model railroad show. Can't say I was impressed, but it was better than no sound at all. The in crowd on the layout sound group said the sounds always must be low volume, but in a train show environment with screaming kids and talking people and a big room and such, small sound doesn't make much impact.

Doug


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For a small speaker with great sound, Trainli has the K57C. 2 1/4 inch round and low profile. 8 ohm, 2 watt, 3 watt max.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

For small locos (0-4-0, small critter diesels, etc.), I've found I can usually get good sound with a 1" - 1.5" speaker with a proper enclosure. The smaller the speaker, the more important the enclosure, especially in large scale. For most of my installs, I try to use 2" - 3" speakers. I've been using Visaton speakers. I can get them in 4-ohm and 8-ohm versions, so if I need to run two in series, I use two 4-ohm speakers. If I have two speaker outputs (QSI or TCS), then I'll use the 8-ohm versions. 

I've not played with sugar cube speakers for large scale. I've played with them just a little bit in the smaller scales but want to experiment a bit more with them. My limited experience with playing with them and running locos on others' railroads which use them is that they don't have a whole lot of bass compared to typical large scale installs. They're on par with other small scale speakers, but those are also a bit lacking for bass. Again, the enclosures are key. I'd also keep in mind their power rating, and make sure your decoder won't exceed that.

Later,

K


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