# My first steam boiler project



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

This is the first time I've attempted to make a live steam boiler so this should be interesting. After all the reading I've been doing, I decided to try to build it using some of the methods that I've read about. This will be a vertical boiler using a piece of 2 inch type L copper pipe for the boiler shell and flue sheets. I cut the boiler shell piece off the pipe at about 8-1/2 inches and then cut another piece off the pipe about 2-1/4 inches long. I cut the short piece onso that I could roll it out flat and then annealed it with the propane torch using Mapp gas. It's much easier to bend after that. 
I found that you can cut pretty thick copper sheet with heavy duty tin snips to rough in the outer corners of the circles for the tube sheets. I cut the circles away from the sheet with a coping saw, trimmed them as best I could with the tin snips, and then filed them to fit inside the pipe, with a slip fit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/6804821456/


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Last night I marked up and drilled the end pieces for the flue tubes, they're 1/4 inch copper tubing. I drilled 7 holes in the end pieces, I drilled them both at the same time so the holes would match. The holes aren't spaced as well as I would like them to be, but I was doing it just with a small ruler and a scratch awl. I probably should have drilled small pilot holes before drilling the 1/4 inch holes, I might have gotten a little better alignment that way. Next time... 
I cut 7 flue tubes that are 7-3/8ths inches long, so that I'll get at least 7 inches of water and steam space inside the boiler. 

http://flic.kr/p/bnjuto


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Here's the flue tubes test fit in the flue sheets. 

http://flic.kr/p/bnjuBS 

This is probably going to be a long project. I still have to buy the boiler fittings and bushings, and I need to go to the welding supply place and buy some silver braizing rod. I'm going to get the 15 percent rod, it melts at above 1100 degrees, so it should work. The main thing I'm wondering about at this point is should I put in more flues? I have room on the flue sheets for 6 more flues if I space them out between the holes that are already there. I don't know if I'll need any more than 7. I'm thinking about firing this with sterno until I come up with something else.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber,
in my opinion the diameter of the flues is way too small, especially as they are pretty long. 
Regards
Henner


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I used 5/16" flues for my ruby boiler and they are shorter, I would have to agree with Henner unfortunately.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

The flue placement also looks like it might be high and the top one may become exposed early in the run.

*Disregard - as it's a vertical boiler - DUH!*


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Amber, 
As I have already suggested, I do wish that with all this work that you would follow a known boiler design so that you are assured success. 
I know, you said that it is just a test of your ability in soldering and metalwork and that it doesn't matter! 
Anyway, and this is for boilers for locomotives (horizontal) so may have no bearing on the matter, but JVR recommended that the flue tubes 'should' have an internal diameter of approximately 1/20 of their length, but the range of 1/15 to 1/30 can be accommodated by modifying the draughting. 
So, 7.375" divided by 30 = .245", really only barely acceptable, depending on the vertical draughting. 
Anyway, you seem to be enjoying the process, so we will see what happens. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

My first vertical has 12 flues, 3/8" diameter, 5" long with a 2.5" diameter firebox. It drafts OK, but needs a little blower help. I could have packed 19 flues in, that would have helped a lot.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I have room for 6 more flues without much problem, maybe I should use 5/16 tubing for those? I was wondering if the 1/4 inch ones were big enough. I suppose I could cut another pair of flue sheets and use 5/16ths flues instead of 1/4 inch ones. My concern is that the more flue put in the boiler, the less water capacity the boiler has. I suppose there's a balance there somewhere. 
Maybe I'll save the flue sheets and 1/4 inch flues for a shorter boiler, see if that works. 
I plan on using pipe fittings for the fire box and the top where the stack goes. A straight coupling should work for the fire box, this one will be dry, no "water legs". I should be able to find a 2 inch to smaller reducer fitting to use as the smokebox. I'm not sure how much to reduce it for the stack, I don't want to restrict the air flow for the flues.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber, 
the problem is that you can't scale nature. Steam is in relation more viscous in a model boiler compared to a 1:1 one. This means the tube diameters have to be larger than scale. Also at a given pressure difference the flow rate is roughly proportional to R^4, so a tube with twice the diameter carries 16 times (!) the flow of the smaller tube. This is also one of the reasons, all tubes should have the same diameter, otherwise the smaller ones get starved. A few large ones are better than many small ones (at least for our models). You are right, there is a tradeoff between heating surface and water capacity. 
Regards


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

I have built a couple of vertical boilers, and think your width to height proportion seems incorrect, your boiler design is too high for the width. 

If you look at the popular midwest boiler it is a bit wider that 2" and not much taller than 3 " not including the firebox. The midwest is a simple center flue design and works well. The Mark IV kit has the modeler solder the boiler together. 
PMR Research also makes a nice vertical boiler kit, which has multiple fire tubes. If you silver solder both of these boilers they will be robust and good steamers. 

One of my scratch built boilers is a proportially enlarged version of the Midwest boiler with a single center flue, I used 4.5 inch copper pipe for the main tube, it steams well and powers my large steam boat. 

Steve


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, great work. You are a brave person. I have not attempted a boiler yet, my soldering skills are lacking


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Enlarge the holes you already have and put in at least 3/8" flues, I would say. Are you going to use sterno for fuel? You will have to experiment with how much air to let in the bottom of the fire box. It looks like you have plenty of water and steam space to me.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Meh, just get a Challenger.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 04 Mar 2012 08:26 PM 
Meh, just get a Challenger. 
Very supporting! Some people like challenges, not Challengers.
Regards


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I think buying a Challenger would be quite financially challenging for me.  
I think plan "B" is in order. using the 1 in 20 rule for flue diameter, a 5 inch flue would be about max for 1/4 inch tubes, so I think I'll shorten the boiler water/steam space to 5 inches. The proportions will look better anyway, for a vertical boiler. I don't think there's enough space between the flue holes in the end plates to make them bigger without them being too close together. I'll save making another set of flue plates for the next boiler. I know where I can get my hands on some 3 inch copper pipe, so that may be the next project. 
Another thing I've been thinking about is making a boiler from 2 pieces of the 2 inch pipe cut open long ways to make the 2 halves of a larger diameter boiler. I could rivet the 2 halves together with copper rivets and then solder the seams with plumbing solder to seal them. The outer boiler temp shouldn't get hot enough to affect the solder as long as I keep the steam pressure at a reasonable amount. 
My problem is that I have more ideas than time to do them.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Amber, if you are considering cutting up two pieces of pipe to make a larger dimension you may want to go through Erics thread on his coal fired ruby project. I believe he just made his boiler from a sheet of brass that he formed over a wooden rod the correct diameter. I'm not sure, but it seems simpler than cutting up two pipes and making them fit since you'll still need to form the ends to meet at the diameter you want. But that's my inexperience take on it.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You scare me when you say, "plumbing solder" for a boiler.

SILVER SOLDER is what to use. Your are asking for a scalding if you use plumbing solder.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I think Eric made his boiler from a piece of pipe that he cut lengthwise to make the diameter smaller to make it closer to scale, but I could be wrong on that. Semper, from the reading that I've been doing, the rivet and solder method was what the old timers used to do regularly when making boilers. The rivets hold the boiler together, and the solder just seals the seam against leaks. Of course, I'd use silver bearing plumbing solder for that, it melts at 420-450 degrees, a lot higher than normal solder. Certainly not high temp enough for a firebox, but that's a different thing.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Some people like humor, not dreary duldrum. 
Regards

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Jeremiah, humor can be "challenging" on the forums...


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a comment on the 1:20 rule for flues. For a 5 inch length the inside diameter of each flue should be 1/4". Don't use a 1/4" outside diameter to do the calculation. 5/16" OD copper tube has an inside diameter of approximately 1/4". You would want to use 5/16" OD tube. 

Steve


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm kinda stuck with either 1/4 inch tube or 3/8ths tube, I haven't found any 5/16ths tubing locally. I'll try it with the 1/4 inch tube and see what happens. I have to wait for a nice day to do the soldering, can't do it in the basement due to the flux fumes, and I don't have a garage. Figuring how to hold the parts in proper alignment for soldering should be interesting.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

Having lots of friends in G1MRA and having spent most of my Teenage time in the "sheds" of Bulawayo and Derby -the trick is to pack *clay* around the tubes to be soldered. This sticky mess then holds the firetubes to the boiler end and at the finish of the soldering can be washed out with the hose -or under the kitchen tap. I am curious when you mention "flux fumes" as I use borax -which I have never known to fume(?) 

I would also suggest you read this: 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/boiler-tests.pdf 

regards 

ralph


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That article is very interesting and really kind of comforting! It seems these little boilers are very strong no matter how they are made as long as the silver solder joints are complete.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

The flux that I have is Stay-Silv, it has flouride compounds in it that can be rather toxic when vaporized in enclosed areas.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Wow! That's some impressive testing! Those boilers take way more pressure than anyone would ever want to run them at!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, very cool method, do you suggest any specific type of clay? I use regular water based clay for holding my parts together, but it tends to turn to powder very quickly.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I use a commercial clay called "Nu-Clay" this has small glass fibre strands to hold it together whiles it dries solid. I believe the Derby Shed mixed horse hair into theirs and I know that the Bulawayo shed used straw... 

regards 

ralph


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ralph. I think I will mix some straw in with mine and see if holds up better.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 06 Mar 2012 11:30 PM 
I'm kinda stuck with either 1/4 inch tube or 3/8ths tube, I haven't found any 5/16ths tubing locally. I'll try it with the 1/4 inch tube and see what happens. 


You don't say where you live, but if you are in North America any local Heating and Refrigeration contractor or supplier should be able to supply you with 3/8", 5/16" or 1/4" copper tube. The stuff I have bought here comes in 10/12ft lengths with a seal on each end to guarantee clinical standards cleanliness. Phone around.

David M-K
Ottawa


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I haven't tried any of the heating /cooling places yet, I just went to the hardware stores and Home Depot. This Home Depot has 2 foot repair sections of 1/4 inch and 3/8ths inch, easier than buying a 10 foot coil when you only need 2-3 feet.  
As for clay, I bought some of the non-hardening modeling clay to try for holding the parts. Since the stuff is oil based, it could be interesting.  I'll be doing that outside...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I picked up a 2 inch to 1-1/2 inch DWV pipe fitting this afternoon for the "smokebox" fitting for the top of the boiler. I figured that since there won't be any steam pressure on this part, the DWV fitting should work for the top of the boiler, I just need to figure out what the diameter of the stack should be. I don't want it to be too small and restrict the exhaust, but I don't want it to be too big either. I'm going to get a 1-1/2 inch reducer fitting to put on top of this fitting, as soon as I figure out what size the stack should be. I'll cut them so that I can fit the tapers together and silver solder them together. Then the assembly can be slipped over the boiler shell. I don't know if it's necessary to solder the assembly to the boiler shell or not, it would be nice to be able to take it off to get at the flues for cleaning or what have you.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Mind you I know none of the "standard equations" for designing boilers but, The combined area of your flues is .193 inch squared. Assuming you want the same cross sectional area the the stack your inner diameter should be .5 inch. Im not sure if it's customary to go smaller or larger than the combined flew area with the stack. If any thing I would think larger since the exhaust steam from the cylinders should pass threw as well.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 08 Mar 2012 06:16 PM 
As for clay, I bought some of the non-hardening modeling clay to try for holding the parts. Since the stuff is oil based, it could be interesting.  I'll be doing that outside... 
The advantage of using regular clay is that you can wash it off when you're done. Oil-based modeling clay is going to make the cleaning process a lot more difficult, especially between the flues.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Amber, I would not use that clay. If it is the clay I think it is, it will melt. If it is plasticine, it melts at about 110 degrees. I melt it around my mold bases with a hair dryer, you can imagine would would happen with a torch.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Check 3 minutes into this video and you will see the clay I use for melting around my molds. Make sure it is not the same type. 
You do not want to put that around your flus and hit it with a torch, it will melt and it will burn.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Rkapuaala, I took your advice and didn't use the modeling clay. I came up with the idea to use the boiler flue plate as a template and drilled holes through 2 pieces of hardwood scrap that I've had sitting around for a number of years. Then I put the flue pipes through the holes to hold them while I positioned the flue plate on the ends of the pipes, after applying the flux, of course. By the time I was done soldering the first end plate, the wood was smoking a bit, but it didn't start on fire, just charred around the holes.  Then I pulled the soldered assembly out of the wood block and soldered on the other flue plate after positioning it and getting it as square as I could. It actually worked quite well.  
I have a few pictures that I'll try to get loaded up tonight to my flickr account so I can link them here.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I was afraid I caught that too late. Clay is good, just make sure it is not plasticine or polyclay like sculpty. The good old earth type clay is good to use, I use it all the time. And there is a heat sink type clay you can use to do multiple solders. You spread the clay on the joints you already soldered and do the next batch and the clay keeps the joints that were already soldered from heating up.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/6983921065/

This is how I set up the flues for soldering. The wood is 2 pieces of maple.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/6983921161/ 

This is after I soldered the first end. I may have gotten a bit carried away with the silver brazing rod, but I don't think it will leak. Between the flux and the heat, that solder wicks quite well! I put a bit of solder on the inside as well as the outside of the flue plate for each tube.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amber_darlene/6837798272/ 

This is with the other end done. The job went quite well, I thought. No problem getting the parts hot enough, the trick with the torch I have is to not get them too hot. I use oxygen and propane instead of atcetylene. Propane is a lot cheaper, I just use a 20 lb tank like for a grill. I also use that setup for brazing thin steel like bicycle tubing, but I use regular brazing rod for that. 
Now I have to clean the assembly before I solder it into the 2 inch pipe section. I need to drill the holes in the pipe for the fittings before I solder in the flue tubes, I don't want to take a chance on hitting a flue with the drill bit. I just need to figure out how many bushings I need, and where to put them. I need a steam outlet and a water fill bushing to start with, I'd like to put a sight glass on the boiler but they cost a lot for my budget.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, apparently PM Research has a basic water gauge that I actually can afford, so I might do that. 1/4-40 bushings.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

How much do they have it for? BTW, the picks look good. You are making me feel like I need to do a boiler next


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You think those pics are good, take a look at Amber with a 50 cal browning! WOW!










Sorry guys for derailing, but any woman who would take that on has my respect hands down.

Greg


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

*That's one girl you DON'T want to mess with!*


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Mar 2012 01:14 PM 
You think those pics are good, take a look at Amber with a 50 cal browning! WOW!










Sorry guys for derailing, but any woman who would take that on has my respect hands down.

Greg 



Ya know, Greg... Sometimes methinks you are right and sometimes methinks you are wrong... 

This is one of the latter times...

In this instance, methinks it would be "HANDS UP"!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

LOL! A frend and I were at the range and this guy showed up with an ammo box and a BIG gun case, I told my friend "this is going to be a BIG gun!" Sure enough, when he took it out of the case, it was this monster. After talking a bit, I found out that the guy was a local gunsmith and he built this himself. It's a single shot .50 BMG. He was kind enough to let us shoot it. My friend was taking video when I shot it and this was a frame capture from the video. The timing was perfect, you can see the flame coming out of the muzzle brake.  If you're not prepared, this thing will push you right off the chair.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Ahhhh caliber 50. What a crowd pleaser.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick, the basic water gauge that PM Research has in it's on-line catalog sells for about 18 dollars. It doesn't have any valves, just the elbows and the glass. The other ones I've seen run around 50 dollars or more, but some of them have a drain valve or shut off valves. 

 

Here's the flue assembly after cleaning. Someone had mentioned using vinegar to clean parts so I thought, why not try coffee pot cleaner? So I did, it works pretty well as you can see. It didn't remove all the flux byproducts though. It left some of the hard deposits around the flues. Before I put it in the coffee pot cleaner mixed with water, I washed the assembly in the sink and scrubbed it a bit with a toothbrush sized wire brush with stainless bristles. That got a lot of the extra flux off. I left the part in the cleaner solution for a bout a half hour, then pulled it out and scrubbed it some more with the brush, and then put it back in the cleaner solution for another hour or so. This is how it came out after rinsing it in the sink again. 
I'm planning on ordering some of the picleling solution from Amazon at some point in the near future, it's not very expensive for the small container. Hopefully, that stuff will do a better job of removing the flux deposits. I also need to use less flux the next time, I know I used too much this time.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Check a healthfood store for citric acid. That will clean it up lickity split.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I like vinegar mixed with salt. Its very cheap. I can a huge jug at costco for close to nothing and it will last me a long time.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That was quite the cannon you tried out!!! Wow! 

I suggest that you will have better results from your boiler with bigger tubes. You said you had some 3/8" tubes? I would try those, I think the boiler will work better. It would be a shame to put all that effort in learning and building and have problems getting the thing to work. your workmanship looks great, though!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Eric, because of my concern for the "1 in 20 rule of thumb" for flue size, I shortened the flues to 5-1/4 inches. I think it's probably marginal, but I'll give it a try and see what happens. The next boiler will definitely have the 3/8ths inch flue tubes. I found a place where I can get a piece of 3 inch copper pipe, I just have to find out what type it is. It won't do me any good if it's DWV pipe. 
Bob, we have 1 health food store here, I'll have to check and see if they carry it. 
Rick, what kind of a mix do you use with the vinegar and salt?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I mix about 1 tblspoon of sale in 2 quarts of vinegar. It works ok for me. Citric acid would do to, but white vinegar is easier to fine and is not too bad on french frys either,,, just don't use it after you have pickled some of your pieces. BTW, I use straight to etch all metals before I paint them.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Interesting, not very much salt at all. I'm sure I have some vinegar somewhere in the house, I usually use it to clean the coffee pot. That, and making dill pickles.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I think I'm going to just use brass bushings on this boiler, just to get it done so I can test it and see how good my solder work is. since this boiler is basically a test to see if I can build one that works, the brass bushings should work well enough for the purpose. I'll probably use a couple of 1/4 to 1/8th brass reducers for the connectors, unless I find something smaller that I can use. I can see that valves are going to be a problem for this. I just don't have the money right now to order the proper parts from PM Research, so I'll see what I can find locally.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Amber-- 

Brass is perfectly acceptable for bushings. Bronze is better because it is stronger and more resistant to corrosion but brass is just fine! 

I think there are some pretty small brass valves for use with (air conditioning?) they are not as small as modelers use but should be pretty cheap. I had some I used when Vacuum laminating with epoxy. They had barb or compression connection fittings. check with your local hardware or HVAC shop.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'll have to check the compression fittings area for valves, I didn't think of that the last time I went to the hardware store. 
I wonder if flare fittings can be used with steam, they seem to work well for propane lines. I have an old set of flaring tools that were my father's, I used the flaring clamp tool to hold the pipe for the flues while I was cutting it with the pipe cutter. That worked a lot better than holding the pipe with a pair of pliars. Anyway, I can make the flairs on the copper tubing if needed, although compression fittings are easier to use.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't see why either would not work just fine. I would say if you like flare fittings use 'em! Propane or home gas fittings and valves should be fine too. The only thing to watch is o-rings which might be used in some parts may not like steam.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I found a nice small 1/8th inch pipe thread needle valve at the hardware store today. It's the kind of valve that's used to install an ice maker. Hopefully, I can get the holes drilled in the boiler shell tomorrow for the bushings so I can finish silver soldering the boiler together.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Cool!!! was the price more in line with what you were thinking? 

When you get your lathe you can make you own valves and fittings...that is great fun!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, the valve cost me about 5 and a half dollars, so I thought that was a pretty good price. These are all 1/8th inch pipe fittings, which are a bit big for a boiler this small, but they should work well enough. 
As for the lathe, I want to buy a new bench top drill press, one with the MT-2 taper shaft, they're a bit over 200 dollars at Manards and Home Depot. After I do that, I'm planning on using the drive from my current drill press to build a lathe with. I won't be able to do thread cutting with it, but I should at least be able to turning and boring with it.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds good Amber! The old drill press should work as a lathe if you can get it set up properly. do try to get a proper tail stock with a live center and a chuck for drilling operations. 

You might also find a used lathe for sale somewhere for an affordable prices. Even with some needed work you might have a better starting point than your old drill press. 

As to thread cutting, you will only very rarely need to machine cut threads, a tap or die in the tail stock of the lathe will do most jobs just fine.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I used to use my drill press all the time to turn stuff. I learned a lot using the drill press, I learned that I liked turning metal and I learned that I needed to buy a real lathe


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By rkapuaala on 22 Mar 2012 02:24 PM 
I used to use my drill press all the time to turn stuff. I learned a lot using the drill press, I learned that I liked turning metal and I learned that I needed to buy a real lathe  
Ah, life's little lessons... But in the mean time what ever gets the job done!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm not sure what the link is for, I get a server error when I click on it.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If you Are referring to the post by nuts n bolts, that link is part of an error due to the web browser. I don't think it is intentional.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

The weather finally cooperated on Thursday, so I got the boiler all soldered together. Here it is , just after soldering the last bushing. It's still quite hot here.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Here it is after cleaning. I just can't seem to get all the flux "slag" off these things. It has to be scraped off while the boiler is being cleaned in the "dip". I don't know if I'm using too much flux, or if it's a byproduct of the 15 % silver braising rod that I used.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Both side of the boiler.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I still need to figure out how to do the firebox opening, but that will depend on what kind of burner that I use. I could go with sterno, alcohol, or solid fuel pellets. 
I still need to test the boiler for leaks. I'm going to try air testing it in a bucket of water with my air compressor. I doubt any of the bushings will leak, I used a lot of braising rod on each one, probably more than necessary for a good seal. The bottom flue plate was hard to see what I was doing, its probably 2-1/2 to 3 inches up from the bottom. There's 1 bushing toward the bottom, for the lower connection to the water sight glass, that's sitting just above the lower flue plate. The bushings are all threaded 1/8th pipe thread, they were 1/4 to 1/8th pipe reducers. I cut them off so they wouldn't stick very far into the boiler space. I need to get the pipe plugs for the bushings to test it, I have an air pump fitting that came off of an old portable air tank that I found at the dump. It was made from a helium balloon tank, the kind that's about the size of a 20 pound LP tank. I used that tank for something else and kept all the fittings. You never know when you might need stuff like that for something.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks great Amber


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks good all around. Are you using the vinegar pickle solution? If so, it's probably weak. Vinegar is only 3% or 4% You'll just need to leave it in a while to clean it up. Even a super concentrated citric acid solution takes 20 - 30 minutes to get everything fully clean.

You can do a quick leak check by putting it in water. The full pressure test is done with the boiler full of water. The test is to twice operating pressure. Your air compressor should provide enough. Put a pressure gauge on it during the test to verify. Home Depot sells pressure gauges in the plumbing dept. that go to 200 PSI. That will be plenty.


The firebox door can be a little piece of 1/2" copper tube soldered in the side. Fabricate a little door with a pin for a hinge on top


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

well your WAY ABOVE my understanding, but well done. just keep a hard hat on while firing it up. 
Does girls call their project a ,he, or she?


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, 
Your response could be a bit confusing to a newby to boiler making. As I read it, the description could be interpreted as doing an air test in a pail of water at a high pressure. 

I have done a quick air test on a boiler, but only 10-15 psi would be needed to find a hole or porosity in a solver soldered joint. After that test then a proper hydrostatic test should be done with pressurized water only. This is with the boiler full of water, with pressure gauge attached, and water pumped into the boiler via a water pump like a hand feed pump. Another alternitive is to have a pressure gauge attached and the boiler full of water, then slightly heat the boiler until the pressure for the test is achieved, it actually works quite well and controlable. Very little heat is needed. 

The only reason I added this post is because I have had discussions with newbys who after much discussion still did not understand the necessity of testing with water and not air. Testing with water is inheritly safe since the water does not compress, unlike air. An all out failure of a boiler end plate would result in the tester getting a little wet if sprayed with the water, there would be no fragmentation or parts flying. The same failure with an air test, would be the boiler end plate shooting across the shop and putting a hole in the wall on the other side of the shop or worse hitting the tester causing injury. It is all about how it would fail. 

I have even had to explain this to one of my vendors who was building sealed vessels for me and added cost in a proposal for a bunker to do an air test since they did understand the danger, they did not think about filling the vessels with water making them safe to test. They could then conduct the test with little added cost. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks, Rick! 
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using heat to pressure test the boiler with water. I don't have a way to pressurize it with a pump, I don't have any kind of pump that would work for that. I'll have to try the heat method with a propane torch. 
I was planning on running this boiler at a max pressure of 50 to 60 PSI. It seems that the little steam engines that I've looked at are only good for about that much pressure, I assume that's due to the type of seals used, and maybe the type of piston ring and type of valve setup. 
Marty, these things are always a "she", they're too complicated to be a "he".  
Bob, I need to figure out how to set this boiler up to burn sterno, I'm thinking that the firebox opening will need to big enough to insert whatever it is that you put the sterno into. If I had more information on it, I'd think about building an alcohol burner, but I don't know the details of one. 
I broke down and ordered some parts from PM Research, a "pop" valve and a pressure gauge, along with several 1/8th to 5/16ths pipe reducers. The pop valve and pressure gauge are both 5/16ths thread. I also ordered 2 pieces of 1/4 inch OD glass tubing to see if I can make a water glass instead of having to buy one. That should be "interesting". I discovered that PM Research is a bit less expensive than anything that I could find on ebay, including the same items that I bought.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steveciambrone on 31 Mar 2012 08:37 PM 
Bob, 
Your response could be a bit confusing to a newby to boiler making. As I read it, the description could be interpreted as doing an air test in a pail of water at a high pressure. 

I have done a quick air test on a boiler, but only 10-15 psi would be needed to find a hole or porosity in a solver soldered joint. After that test then a proper hydrostatic test should be done with pressurized water only. This is with the boiler full of water, with pressure gauge attached, and water pumped into the boiler via a water pump like a hand feed pump. Another alternitive is to have a pressure gauge attached and the boiler full of water, then slightly heat the boiler until the pressure for the test is achieved, it actually works quite well and controlable. Very little heat is needed. 

The only reason I added this post is because I have had discussions with newbys who after much discussion still did not understand the necessity of testing with water and not air. Testing with water is inheritly safe since the water does not compress, unlike air. An all out failure of a boiler end plate would result in the tester getting a little wet if sprayed with the water, there would be no fragmentation or parts flying. The same failure with an air test, would be the boiler end plate shooting across the shop and putting a hole in the wall on the other side of the shop or worse hitting the tester causing injury. It is all about how it would fail. 

I have even had to explain this to one of my vendors who was building sealed vessels for me and added cost in a proposal for a bunker to do an air test since they did understand the danger, they did not think about filling the vessels with water making them safe to test. They could then conduct the test with little added cost. 

Thanks 
Steve 
Maybe it was a bit confusing:



The time tested, widely accepted method to initially test a boiler is to attach a pressure gauge, plug all remaining bushes, fill it completely with water, attach a hand pump or air compressor, pressurize to twice the intended operating pressure and hold at that level for 30 minutes. The boiler can not leak in any manner during the test. Thereafter, test the boiler annually with all plumbing attachments. Fill the boiler with water, pressurize to 1.5 times operating pressure and hold for 30 minutes. No leaks allowed in the boiler itself. Water gauge, if you have one, can not leak either. Water gauges are considered part of the pressure vessel.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

So, you're saying that as long as I fill the boiler completely with water, I could use an air compressor to pressurize the water? I assume that keeping the air space to a minimum where the air fitting is connected is advisable. All my boiler bushings are 1/8th inch pipe thread, so if I put a short piece of pipe on one of the bushings with a coupling for the air fitting, and fill the entire thing with water including the pipe, and then thread the air filler fitting on there, I could pressurize the boiler with the air compressor. I just have to watch the pressure gauge. I'd like to test it to 120 PSI, that's twice what I expect to run it at. 
I suppose that, theoretically, the slow heating method might be safer, but that's going to make steam, so is it really any safer than air? Steam is a lot hotter than air, if it's going to leak, I'd rather it leaked cold water than hot water and steam.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 31 Mar 2012 10:34 PM 
Thanks, Rick! 
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using heat to pressure test the boiler with water. I don't have a way to pressurize it with a pump, I don't have any kind of pump that would work for that. I'll have to try the heat method with a propane torch. 
I was planning on running this boiler at a max pressure of 50 to 60 PSI. It seems that the little steam engines that I've looked at are only good for about that much pressure, I assume that's due to the type of seals used, and maybe the type of piston ring and type of valve setup. 
Marty, these things are always a "she", they're too complicated to be a "he".  
Bob, I need to figure out how to set this boiler up to burn sterno, I'm thinking that the firebox opening will need to big enough to insert whatever it is that you put the sterno into. If I had more information on it, I'd think about building an alcohol burner, but I don't know the details of one. 
I broke down and ordered some parts from PM Research, a "pop" valve and a pressure gauge, along with several 1/8th to 5/16ths pipe reducers. The pop valve and pressure gauge are both 5/16ths thread. I also ordered 2 pieces of 1/4 inch OD glass tubing to see if I can make a water glass instead of having to buy one. That should be "interesting". I discovered that PM Research is a bit less expensive than anything that I could find on ebay, including the same items that I bought. 

If you try the heat method be sure to completely fill the boiler with water. Otherwise when the water expands due to the heat, the air will compress and the pressure will not rise until you reach the boiling point of the water. If the boiler is completely full, NO air at all in the system, then the pressure will rise very quickly.

You can make pressure pump capable of getting 100 psi or more using just a spray bottle; like is used to spray soap or cleansers on countertops and such. And when the boiler is FULL of water it will only take a couple of pulls on the spray trigger to get 40 to 60 psi.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

The method I described with the boiler full of water and applying heat takes very little heat and the temperature might even be as low as 120-150F but I am only guessing. It would not be anywhere close to boiling and if a leak is detected only warm water comes out. I use a propane torch on very low and only dance the flame on the boiler tube, moving it around and removing the heat quite often to see the pressure increase slowly. It would be described as only slightly heating the tube to get it warm, the tube does not even become discolored from the heat applied. 

There is probably someone that can calculated the pressure increase with water only in a sealed vessel over a given temperature excursion. 

My experiance is that leaks are found at a pretty low pressure. 

Thanks 
Steve


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 31 Mar 2012 11:09 PM 
So, you're saying that as long as I fill the boiler completely with water, I could use an air compressor to pressurize the water? I assume that keeping the air space to a minimum where the air fitting is connected is advisable. All my boiler bushings are 1/8th inch pipe thread, so if I put a short piece of pipe on one of the bushings with a coupling for the air fitting, and fill the entire thing with water including the pipe, and then thread the air filler fitting on there, I could pressurize the boiler with the air compressor. I just have to watch the pressure gauge. I'd like to test it to 120 PSI, that's twice what I expect to run it at. 
I suppose that, theoretically, the slow heating method might be safer, but that's going to make steam, so is it really any safer than air? Steam is a lot hotter than air, if it's going to leak, I'd rather it leaked cold water than hot water and steam. 
Yes. Completely fill the boiler with water. The air compressor must be regulated. So you can hook up, starting at zero PSI and gradually turn up the air.

The heat method works too. Fill the boiler totally full of water and heat VERY SLOWLY. A candle is about all you need. The pressure raises very rapidly at a certain point. Just be slow with it. I set a boiler full of water out in the sun one summer day and got 25 PSI.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob, 
Using a candle is a better way to describe this method since the heat source is limited and just about the same around the world, ensuring a new builder would use a small heat source to obtain the pressure. 
Thanks 
Steve


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I can do a candle.  
If the weather is halfway decent tomorrow, I'll give the boiler the bubble test, and if it passes that, then I'll try the "full of water and candle" test. I need to run to the store to pick up a water pressure gauge to test it with. The little steam pressure gauge that I bought only goes to 100 PSI and I don't want to push it to the limit by using it in the pressure test. Someone said in a different post that it's bad for a gauge to use it to it's limit for testing.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

You are correct. 
A larger gauge is needed for a pressure test, the small gauges are not really considered accurate enough for boiler testing, they are great as an indication of operating pressure. 

Steve


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 01 Apr 2012 10:17 PM 
I can do a candle.  
If the weather is halfway decent tomorrow, I'll give the boiler the bubble test, and if it passes that, then I'll try the "full of water and candle" test. I need to run to the store to pick up a water pressure gauge to test it with. The little steam pressure gauge that I bought only goes to 100 PSI and I don't want to push it to the limit by using it in the pressure test. Someone said in a different post that it's bad for a gauge to use it to it's limit for testing. 
Are you sure your boiler is water tight? Might want to wear a rain jacket. Just kidding, it will do fine.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

You can certainly try the boiler with the little gauge...will it hold perssure at all? when it does, set up the big pressure gauge and do a proper test. 

First--doing a low pressure air test in a bucket of water is good for the first pass...the (major) leak test. it should help you find places that need some more silver solder 

second--If you can pump it up a little with your pressure gauge and it will hold pressure for some time then you do not have leaks. of course the filler and the gauge could leak and not you boiler...it is hard to know where a small leak is at lowish pressure. with the same setup go back to the air test above to find the location of any leak. 

third--the final "Proof test" is to pressurize it to double the working pressure to show yourself that it will not break under pressure


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, so much for my amazing soldering skills!  I got to test the boiler today, I did the bubble test in a bucket with about 25-30 PSI of air and got lots of bubbles! I had leaks on 3 of the 7 flue tube seams on one end of the boiler, and 2 flue tubes on the other end, plus a pinhole leak on 1 of the bushing solder joints. I had the air valve in one bushing and plugs in all the other bushings. 
I resoldered the leaks and after the boiler cooled off, I tried the test again. I still had 1 leak at a flue tube solder joint that I somehow missed. I resoldered it again, but I ran out of light before I could test it again. It takes a wile to cool down after you put that much heat into it. But, I did get some garden clean up work done while waiting for the boiler to cool. It'll be another month and a half before I can plant the garden, but it's a big veggie garden and there's lots of prep work still to do. 
Tomorrow I'll test it again, and if it holds, then I need to run to the hardware store for a 1/4 inch pipe to 1/8th pipe adapter for the big pressure gauge, because I wasn't thinking about the gauge having a 1/4 inch male pipe connector, and all the fittings on the boiler are 1/8th pipe thread. Then I can give it the high pressure test.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Something to remember when doing pressure tests.

Any pressure in the boiler is a bad thing!

"Whoa! Wait a minute! Don't I want to pressurize the boiler when it am using it?" I hear you saying!

Well, yes, that is true, but any pressure will stress the components and stress is a bad thing. The parts can handle some stress without much damage and that is considered acceptable because without the pressure you just have a cute hunk of metal that has no useable value. So we talk about not "over-stressing" the parts. Then it becomes a matter of defining the difference between "acceptable stress" and "over-stress".

Metal will stretch to a certain point and then return to the original size when the force stretching it is removed, but beyond that point it deforms and does not return to the original state... that is defined as the "yield point". For years is was considered that as long as you did not exceed the Yield point, then you have not caused a problem and you can do it all day without worry.

That is no longer considered true. Any stress causes fatigue to the metal and is bad.

So the current acceptable practice is to design a boiler for a certain pressure and test it to twice that level for safety's sake, but do not exceed twice the designed pressure. If the pressure held at that level and no permanent deformation occurred (i.e.: you did not exceed the Yield point) then you have a safe boiler. Note, that pressurizing to twice the designed operating pressure is done only the first time the boiler is tested... all annual (yes, you "should" test a boiler at least once per year... but few people do) tests should be to only 1 and a half times the designed operating pressure.

The theory behind this is that by limiting the Test pressures you will fatigue the metal less.

In our miniature world we do not usualy go through the "boiler design" process of deciding what material thickness to use for the pressure desired... the common materials available are such that the ACTUAL yield point is nearly 10 times the usual operating pressure, so you could easily go to 4 or 5 times the designed operating pressure or maybe even more without causing a problem, but since any stress is a bad thing, it is considered bad (or at least poor) practice to do so.

I have built a couple of boilers myself (soft soldered!) with the intent to pressurize them to destruction and was unable to destroy them. I just don't have the equipment to get beyond about 500 pounds of pressure and I noted no deformation in my experiments. I have since destroyed those boilers by drilling holes all over them because I don't want anyone to find them and decide that maybe they'd be good for a toy boiler... I have no idea what I managed to do to them structurally (and they are soft soldered!) and I don't want anyone to find out in unexpected ways. (I wanted to heat one to destruction, but chickened out on that experiment.)

The boiler that Amber has made is "probably" good to 1000 pounds of pressure based on the materials used and the described construction methods, but if the "designed" (or expected working) pressure is to be 60 psi, then it should be tested to 180 psi and no more. As long as the ends don't pop off and no water squirts from a seam then it is good to go. If it was assembled with good materials and seams and joints are made with the idea that they might accidentally be subjected to extreme heat in operation (made with silver solder, not tin/lead solder... or epoxy or bubble-gum), and it has safety valves set to release all the pressure above the working pressure that the normal firing method can create then raising steam in it is not a problem.

I know the feelings Amber has experienced of thinking the boiler was "done" only to find leaks galore! I didn't do the bubble test as I refuse to use compressed air for testing. I just had water squirting all over (and like the idiot I am, I didn't do the first test in a place where water squirting all over wasn't a problem! I still have water spots on the dining room walls and curtains and ceiling!) I dried the boiler out and reheated all the joints. then tested again and I had one solder joint fail suddenly at pressure! It didn't weep at lower pressures, it just LET GO after I had the pressure up to about 150 psi... wasn't much water, but it sure did go a long way! At that pressure, I am glad it squirted away from me as it could have penetrated my skin at close range. All tests done after that were done in a wood box and I only watched the gauge from a distance and at the end of the test (and the pressure had been released) I looked for water on the outside of the boiler and on the walls of the box.

It is recommended also that you inspect all joints with a magnifying glass of some sort (Jeweler's loupe). Look for dimples and dark spots. File or scratch the dark spots to see if they caused by a bubble or hole under it. Dimples also indicate a possible bubble that should be removed by re-fluxing and reheating.

I have given up the idea of making my own boiler as I just do not have the patience to do all the inspecting and testing at the level that I think is needed to do it "right" and I don't want to do it in a lax manner. It is not hard to do, but it does require some attention to detail and patience to get it done right.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

Quote: 
"I'd think about building an alcohol burner, but I don't know the details of one." 
Unquote: 

Well you need only ask... 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/meths.pdf 

regards 

ralph 

Post Scriptumn: I have build a hybrid burner and made the mistake of testing it in my kitchen. Test it outside....


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 03 Apr 2012 11:48 PM 
Well, so much for my amazing soldering skills!  I got to test the boiler today, I did the bubble test in a bucket with about 25-30 PSI of air and got lots of bubbles! I had leaks on 3 of the 7 flue tube seams on one end of the boiler, and 2 flue tubes on the other end, plus a pinhole leak on 1 of the bushing solder joints. I had the air valve in one bushing and plugs in all the other bushings. 
I resoldered the leaks and after the boiler cooled off, I tried the test again. I still had 1 leak at a flue tube solder joint that I somehow missed. I resoldered it again, but I ran out of light before I could test it again. It takes a wile to cool down after you put that much heat into it. But, I did get some garden clean up work done while waiting for the boiler to cool. It'll be another month and a half before I can plant the garden, but it's a big veggie garden and there's lots of prep work still to do. 
Tomorrow I'll test it again, and if it holds, then I need to run to the hardware store for a 1/4 inch pipe to 1/8th pipe adapter for the big pressure gauge, because I wasn't thinking about the gauge having a 1/4 inch male pipe connector, and all the fittings on the boiler are 1/8th pipe thread. Then I can give it the high pressure test. 
Something always leaks. You almost never get them on the first try. That was a good plan for the first boiler. All the solder joints on the outside so you could get to them.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't give up. If at first you don't succeed try, try, try again.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rkapuaala on 04 Apr 2012 04:27 PM 
Don't give up. If at first you don't succeed try, try, try again. 

WAIT! You left out the bit about throwing things around the room and turning the air blue with language that would scare an old sea dog!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

That comes before trying again, and is just assumed behavior for anyone that has to try, try, try again


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04 Apr 2012 05:52 PM 
Posted By rkapuaala on 04 Apr 2012 04:27 PM 
Don't give up. If at first you don't succeed try, try, try again. 

WAIT! You left out the bit about throwing things around the room and turning the air blue with language that would scare an old sea dog!








LOL, you's guys, would I do a thing like that?


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Ralph, thanks for the link, it was very helpful! 

Well, I tested the boiler again this afternoon, this time it didn't leak at about 40 PSI of air, so I put 60 PSI in it, at least that's what the compressor gauge said after I adjusted the pressure valve. It didn't leak at 60 PSI, except for a bit from the air valve stem and one of the pipe plugs that I didn't put new pipe seal compound on after heating up the boiler. No leaks on any of the solder joints. I discovered that you can really smear on the flux and it seems to flow the solder better. That 15% silver brasing rod doesn't flow nearly as well as the soft solder that I'm used to using. I think I finally got enough solder on the fittings and flue tubes, there's fillets of solder on all the connections now. Of course, now I need to go and buy more sticks of solder, I used most of 2 sticks on the boiler. 
Hopefully, tomorrow I'll get to the water pressure test. I'll be doing that outside, just in case.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 04 Apr 2012 10:39 PM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04 Apr 2012 05:52 PM 
Posted By rkapuaala on 04 Apr 2012 04:27 PM 
Don't give up. If at first you don't succeed try, try, try again. 

WAIT! You left out the bit about throwing things around the room and turning the air blue with language that would scare an old sea dog!








LOL, you's guys, would I do a thing like that?  

OH DEAR! Where are my manners? How could I have possibly forgotten the sweet young member of the fair sex involved here?

Humblest of apologies... deepest, deepest and utmost apologies and entreaties of forgiveness.


















However, given a photo displayed previously in this thread as well as some others linked to previously...



In regard to the handling of the present subject... Visions of the use of heavy artillery do come to mind. (Hands up or down!)


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

LOL! 
I learned a long time ago that throwing things when you're mad usually just results in broken things. It seems inevitable that when you throw a tool, it hits something that you didn't want to break.  
As for the use of certain words said in anger, i must plead the 5th...  When you grow up with a bunch of brothers, you learn how to string those words together in some "interesting" ways...very un-lady like...


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"you learn how to string those words together in some "interesting" ways..."


Amber;
If it's any consolation, the old gentleman who taught me how to run and maintain a steam locomotive also taught me how to cuss fluidly in Pennsylvania Dutch.









Best wishes on your project,
David Meashey


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I did the big boiler test this evening, just before dark. It was about 35 degrees outside at that point, so heating the boiler turned into an interesting project. I had the boiler as full of water as I could get it, including the pipe up to the pressure gauge. This is what I had to do to heat the boiler to build up the pressure. 

 

That's a propane torch heating up the bottom flue plate and the flue tubes. 
Here's the scary picture. 

 

I couldn't keep the pressure up without keeping the torch fired up. The first time it hit 85 PSI, it started dropping again, it turned out that the pipe joint was leaking where the pressure gauge pipe went into the boiler bushing. I tightened that up a bit more and heated it up again. At about 100 PSI, I noticed that water was slowly forming drops on the coupling that connected the pressure gauge to the pipe going to the boiler, so I tightened that up a bit more, and heated it up again. This time I got it up to 180 PSI without seeing any more water or steam. The pressure stayed up as long as I kept the heat on the boiler. I kept messing with the torch valve trying to find a setting that would hold the pressure instead of raising it or letting it drop from not enough heat. I never did get it quite right, but pretty close. Anyway, after holding the pressure up for a couple of minutes, I shut off the torch and let the boiler start to cool off. As I was inspecting it closely for any pinhole leaks on the bushings, I could hear a faint hissing. I finally found the cause, a tiny pinhole leak on the seam where the lower flue plate is soldered to the boiler shell. I found the spot because the steam hissing out of the pinhole was leaving a white deposit around the hole, minerals in the water, you know. 
So anyway, I need to resolder that spot and test it again. I won't have the chance to do that until next week now. Hopefully that's the last leak. I don't mind the soldering I just don't like having the clean the boiler, again. Oh well, maybe it won't leak the next time.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Miss Amber, 

You are doing very well. Here in the UK we normally use a "pickling solution" of Citric acid to clean the boiler work with. I just let the work cool down naturally and then dunk the work in a bucket overnight. Leaks and especially pinholes are a perpetual problem. I think that your bottle torch uses MAPP rather than Propane (due to the bottle colour) which would explain why it is difficult to control at low settings. MAPP is a mixture of gases that boil off at differing rates. When the torch is running at full blast the gasses all boil off at the same time whilst at low rates -there is a "lag". 

To make you more at ease here is a picture of one of my first boilers that I made. It is a "porcupine" boiler and there were *73* holes to seal on it. 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/heilmannpic8.jpg 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/stephenson.pdf 

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/boilers.pdf 

regards 

ralph


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

I think its time to find a pump so you can do a normal Hydrostatic test (I normally only torch test a boiler to 100 psig.). You should also find a higher ranging pressure gauge, the pressure you want to test to should be 2/3 the maximum pressure reading of the gauge. You are doing great so far. 
Regards, 
Gerald.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The heat method is really only a quick check for leaks. As soon as the heat source is removed the pressure will start to drop due to the heat in the water radiating out through the boiler shell. The only way to maintain pressure that way to keep applying heat and you really don't know if the pressure is dropping because of a leak (unless you see water coming out) or due to heat loss.

You should pressurize with a pump and test that the boiler holds the pressure over 1/2 to 1 hour (or more).

I had to put a manual ball valve in the pump pressure line because my pump leaks backward though the one-way valves and I cannot maintain pressure. I have done the pressure test using the tender pump in my Mikes and there are FIVE one-way valves in that pressure line... 2 in the tender pump (inlet and outlet) and 2 more in the axle pump (inlet and outlet) and the 'Clack Valve' on the boiler backhead... and they ALL leak backwards! I disconnected the hose between the tender and the loco and connected it to a ball valve and then connected the other side of the ball valve to where I had disconnected the hose. Then after I have pumped the pressure up using the hand pump in the tender, I close that valve and then the boiler will hold pressure.

The clack valves seals well once the boiler is up to pressure in steam, but does not work well cold.

(Besides, ya scares the heck outta me using a MAPP torch to heat a sealed vessal with no safety valves at all!!







)


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks for the links, Ralph! interesting information. I don't think I'd want to try a porcupine boiler, too many solder joints!  
My pressure gauge goes to 200 PSI, I was only planning on testing the boiler to 120 PSI, bit I got a bit carried away. I didn't expect a big failure of a bushing or the flue plates, I used a lot of solder on the joints, way more than the minimum necessary to hold the bushings in place. My soldering isn't pretty, but it is pretty strong. I tend to use too much heat, and gob the solder on when it starts to flow. I think the too much heat part is where the pin holes come from, flux bubbles in the solder. With oxygen and propane, it's easy to get too much heat in a small area, but it's the only thing I have that will get the work hot enough to melt that silver braising rod. It is interesting watching the silver rod combine with the copper and brass once the metal is hot enough, it's a lot like regular brazing rod on steel once the steel gets hot enough to combine with the brazing rod metal. 
The only reason I used Mapp gas to heat the boiler is because that's what I has on hand at the time. I need to go to the hardware store and get a can of propane. I'd like to use my 20 pound propane tanks for the torch, but I don't have the hose setup for that right now. I'm planning on getting the hose setup for the big tank when I can allocate the money for it. They're not that expensive, there's just other things that need to come first. 
Semper, one thing I figured out right away was that you can't maintain pressure in a boiler without lots of heat. Every time I moved the torch, the pressure immediately started to drop. Maybe it was the pinhole leak causing that, but it was easier to lower the pressure than it was to raise it. 
I did find it interesting that once the boiler cooled enough to pull the plugs out of the bushings to empty the boiler, it was still almost entirely full of water, even with the leaks that I had early in the test from the pipe joints. 
The only way that I have to pressurize the boiler cold is with the air compressor. I realize that's not as safe as using a water pump of some kind, but, logically speaking, if the boiler stayed together at 180 PSI hot with the boiler full of water, there's no reason to believe that it would come apart at 120 PSI cold with the boiler full of water and pressurized with air. Of course, as luck would have it, my air filler valve leaked a little bit when I did the bubble test in the bucket of water, it might not hold pressure very well for the sustained pressure test. I'll have to find a ball valve to use for that test so I can shut off the air filler valve after I pressurize the boiler, maybe I can use a small gas valve, that shouldn't leak.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

This is the equipment that I use. 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/heilmannpic22.jpg 

It consists of a roasting tray, a tapped length of hexagonal brass bar, a meter and a ram pump -this is coupled to the boiler under test via flexible hydraulic line. The ram pump is used to top up the boiler on a running loco and cost (I seem to remember) about £20. Distilled water is provided from the water butt or the tray of the tumble drier.... 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Is the ram pump in the foreground, and only partially in the picture? 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg.... 

The ram pump is *SUBMERGED* underneath the water.... You and see the ram on the bottom right of the shot. 

viz: http://www.modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/user/cimage/PUMP.jpg 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's what I thought... have to look them up, seems the perfect way to raise pressure without using air pressure. 

Greg


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Amber, 

I have been reading this thread with increasing anxiety as some of the things you are doing are not only dangerous but downright stupid. There are others contributing to this thread who I thought knew better but I'm beginning to wonder. 
I do know that you are enthusiastic and often that enthusiasm can lead to rushing in without thinking of the (nasty?) consequences, I've been around small scale steam for 50 years now and know of what I speak.........for God's sake NO MORE STEAMING A VESSEL to 185PSI WITHOUT A SAFETY VALVE...........that is INSANE! Do a hydraulic test to 1.5 or even 2 times working pressure leave it for 30 minutes to make sure it holds pressure, that's all you do. For goodness sake get access to some books on model boiler making, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest before you do yourself a mischief and put our hobby back 60 years. 

David M-K 
Ottawa Canada


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with David, read some books on the subject and get some knowledge before attaempting boilermaking and testing, it is only required to test to twice working pressure with a hydraulic water test and then test the Safety Valve under steam to release at the working pressure for which the boiler is designed, the Safety Valve must be large enough to not let the pressure rise above working pressure plus 10% at full firing on whatever fuel is being used. 
Then it is only required to test every year to 1 1/2 times working pressure, Hydraulic water, and re test the safery Valve, this way we ensure our hobby is kept safe and no unfortunate accidents occur. 
David Bailey DJB Model Engineering Ltd


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

PM Research has a ram pump for ca $ 50.00 ,very good quality and gets the water pressure up to 250# .

Manfred 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

This water test thing interests me. I have a couple of paint pots I use as pressure and vacuum chambers they are only rated at 80 psi. If I fill those pots up with water and lead a hose from the sipon to a boiler and apply 80 psi to the pot, will that be equivalent to 80 psi of water pressure? Or will it be less?


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick, I think the only way to figure that out would be to have a pressure gauge on the pot so that it's measuring water pressure, and then see how much steam or air pressure it would take to raise the water pressure to 80 psi. It might be the same pressure, I really don't know on that one.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If there is no "flow" occurring then the pressure will equalize throughout the whole system. Only friction to flow will cause a pressure differential. 80 psi in one container connected to another container will produce 80 psi in that one too.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

To the Davids, I understand what you're saying about safety and all that, but be assured that I have done my homework on miniature boiler building. Considering the safety testing that has been done on miniature boilers to find out how they fail and at what pressures they deform, when using the proper materials, I know that I am well within the safety factors of the type "L" copper pipe that I used to build the boiler. I could probably put 500 PSI into this boiler and, if I braized the bushings and flues properly, there would be no issues with the materials. That doesn't mean that I am going to actually try that, but other people already have done it. I may be crazy, but I'm not self-destructive. I appreciate your concern, but I am doing the tests with the safety factors in mind. 
Manfred, that's the type of pump I plan on getting, when I can scrape up the money. In the mean time, I'm going to try to make a goodall valve and pump bottle, I'm going to need one anyway to top off the water in the boiler when it's running. 
Actually, I think that making a ram pump would be a fairly simple thing to do, except for the piston seal, and that can probably be done with a heavy O ring in a groove on the ram piston. You would basically need the pump body, which could be made from brass pipe and a T coupling, two 1 way valves, 1 going in, and 1 going out, the ram piston and O ring, and the handle and handle pivot setup. I don't know how much pressure you could get out of it, but it would be worth trying, I think.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rkapuaala on 07 Apr 2012 08:10 PM 
This water test thing interests me. I have a couple of paint pots I use as pressure and vacuum chambers they are only rated at 80 psi. If I fill those pots up with water and lead a hose from the sipon to a boiler and apply 80 psi to the pot, will that be equivalent to 80 psi of water pressure? Or will it be less? 

How do you pressurize the paint pot?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber
One of the guidelines we have posted on our website is a good reference to boiler safety:
_http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/G1MRA/files/Boiler Safety/_
_Boiler safety reference _

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/charles/TR3 services/Pressure Vessel Procedure 2008.pdf


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 07 Apr 2012 08:47 PM 
Posted By rkapuaala on 07 Apr 2012 08:10 PM 
This water test thing interests me. I have a couple of paint pots I use as pressure and vacuum chambers they are only rated at 80 psi. If I fill those pots up with water and lead a hose from the sipon to a boiler and apply 80 psi to the pot, will that be equivalent to 80 psi of water pressure? Or will it be less? 

How do you pressurize the paint pot? 
I capped off the outlet of the paint pot and it works just fine as a pressure vessel. I have a safety valve installed on the outlet side of the pot. It's a fairly easy method to convert the paint pot for casting purposes. I've only gone up to 60 psi when I'm casting.Not to sure how it would work with a steam boiler test etc?


Craig


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 07 Apr 2012 08:59 PM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 07 Apr 2012 08:47 PM 
Posted By rkapuaala on 07 Apr 2012 08:10 PM 
This water test thing interests me. I have a couple of paint pots I use as pressure and vacuum chambers they are only rated at 80 psi. If I fill those pots up with water and lead a hose from the sipon to a boiler and apply 80 psi to the pot, will that be equivalent to 80 psi of water pressure? Or will it be less? 

How do you pressurize the paint pot? 
I capped off the outlet of the paint pot and it works just fine as a pressure vessel. I have a safety valve installed on the outlet side of the pot. It's a fairly easy method to convert the paint pot for casting purposes. I've only gone up to 60 psi when I'm casting.Not to sure how it would work with a steam boiler test etc?


Craig 



no no no... what creates the pressure? Is there a ram of some sort of a lever operated liquid pump? Or do you apply air pressure to it?

I really don't think you folk are understanding the DANGER!!!!!!! using compressed air to test an UNKNOWN vessal!

AIR, when compressed contains a large quantity of air that if/when released reverts to taking the original LARGE volume of space. If released because of a flaw in the materials or workmanship the materials can become like schrapnel from a detonated explosive. Same is true if you have boiled water into steam.

When you pressurize water, and ONLY WATER, it does not compress so the volume of the water remains the same. If released then there is very little force to create projectiles. The only reason you can work a pump to the point that the ram/piston actually moves is because you didn't get all the air out (you have left some trapped in the system) and it is that air that is compressing allowing the pump to actually move... or the materials that comprise the pressure vessal and the hoses/pipes that lead to it are deforming/stretching some amount. If something "gives" while applying pressure to the system, the only movement of the contents will be what is required to let the trapped air expand to its original size or for the deformed material to return to the original state. When my solder joint failed (refered to above in a previous reply in this thread) the only water that shot out of the hole was about a half a teaspoon's worth. It shot a long ways, but it did not have enough force to rip the end of the boiler out to take it with the little squirt!

One more thing... that paint pot that is rated at 80 PSI... how thick are the walls? How is the lid attached when it is to be pressurized? How are the various hoses attached? Compare those things to the toy boiler that is to be tested. Is your boiler the same thickness?

The paint pot I used to have was at least 1/4 inch thick and the lid screwed on, not with threads like a bolt and nut, but with a series of slots in the rim of the pot and tabs on the lid that fit the slots and then the lid was twisted maybe 15 degrees to get the tabs under thick flanges adjacent to the slots. Any force in the pot could not cause the lid to apply force to "threads" to make it unscrew. 

There was also a LARGE pressure release valve (safety valve) on it to keep the idiot user (oh... sorry, "consumer") from overpressurizing it. The inlet piping was smaller than the oriface of the safety valve, so that even if the pressure source (an air tank) was large, the quantity of air that could get in over a given length of time was less that the safey could release in that same length of time, so you could not increase the pressure beyond the safety valve setting, no matter how much pressure you had on the "input" side of things.

Using the hot water method of testing a boiler is DANGEROUS if you don't respect the fact that you are attempting to boil the water. Get it above 212 degrees and if the pressure vessal fails, then the water leaving the scene will flash to steam with great velosity and even small amounts can scald (burn/cook) flesh. Apply the heat and see the pressure rise. If no leaks are IMMEDIATELY evident, remove the heat... you are DONE with that test.... DO NOT CONTINUE!

Remember, you are testing a complete UNKNOWN. You may be a perfect workman and always make perfect silversolder joints, but how do you know the silversolder is any good?, How do you know the parts of the boiler you are joining are any good? Did you ultra-sound the material? Frankly, you DON"T know anything about the new pressure vessal until you PROVE it is good by pressurizing it to working pressure and then you don't know if it will hold if the pressure accidently goes over the working pressure... 

So the wisdom of the years and years of people building pressure vessals is to HYDROSTATICLY test the vessal to twice the working pressure. And that is ONLY for testing a NEW vessal... THEN, after the design and workmanship have been PROVEN, an annual test is done to 1 and a half times the working pressure to PROVE that components have not deteriorated to unsafe conditions.

Like I said in the previous reply, ANY pressure causes fatigue of the material and is to be kept to a minimum for a long life of the vessal at the desired working pressure.

I am absolutely certain that Amber's boiler, IF the materials are not flawed and IF her workmanship is up to snuff, it COULD handle 1000 psi (it would have crushed flues and look more like an American 'football' and no longer be a useable "boiler"), but if it is pressurized even to only 500 psi using AIR (or STEAM) and there IS a flaw somewhere, then DEATH is, if not "certain", at least a possibility, and without extreme precautions (tested in a bunker of some sort), injury probably IS 'certain'.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 07 Apr 2012 10:32 PM 
Posted By bnsfconductor on 07 Apr 2012 08:59 PM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 07 Apr 2012 08:47 PM 
Posted By rkapuaala on 07 Apr 2012 08:10 PM 
This water test thing interests me. I have a couple of paint pots I use as pressure and vacuum chambers they are only rated at 80 psi. If I fill those pots up with water and lead a hose from the sipon to a boiler and apply 80 psi to the pot, will that be equivalent to 80 psi of water pressure? Or will it be less? 

How do you pressurize the paint pot? 
I capped off the outlet of the paint pot and it works just fine as a pressure vessel. I have a safety valve installed on the outlet side of the pot. It's a fairly easy method to convert the paint pot for casting purposes. I've only gone up to 60 psi when I'm casting.Not to sure how it would work with a steam boiler test etc?


Craig 



no no no... what creates the pressure? Is there a ram of some sort of a lever operated liquid pump? Or do you apply air pressure to it?



One more thing... that paint pot that is rated at 80 PSI... how thick are the walls? How is the lid attached when it is to be pressurized? How are the various hoses attached? Compare those things to the toy boiler that is to be tested. Is your boiler the same thickness?

The paint pot I used to have was at least 1/4 inch thick and the lid screwed on, not with threads like a bolt and nut, but with a series of slots in the rim of the pot and tabs on the lid that fit the slots and then the lid was twisted maybe 15 degrees to get the tabs under thick flanges adjacent to the slots. Any force in the pot could not cause the lid to apply force to "threads" to make it unscrew. 

There was also a LARGE pressure release valve (safety valve) on it to keep the idiot user (oh... sorry, "consumer") from overpressurizing it. The inlet piping was smaller than the oriface of the safety valve, so that even if the pressure source (an air tank) was large, the quantity of air that could get in over a given length of time was less that the safey could release in that same length of time, so you could not increase the pressure beyond the safety valve setting, no matter how much pressure you had on the "input" side of things.







I use air for casting from an air compressor. Here's a similar one


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That looks a bit like a pressure canner.  I believe that those kind of paint pots are designed to be pressurized with air, the most common way to spray paint. Some of the paint sprayers are capable of fairly high air pressure, 80-100 PSI. Can you imagine the mess that would make if something, like a line failed? Paint everywhere!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

An example of a "TOY" boiler not being operated properly...



Listen to the words that are spoken.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If one did not mind the cosmetic damage that would be a quick way to boil some water on the mainline. I wonder what would occur should someone arrive at a steamup and bring their engine up to operating pressure using a blowtorch.


Happy Easter.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 08 Apr 2012 06:02 AM 
If one did not mind the cosmetic damage that would be a quick way to boil some water on the mainline. I wonder what would occur should someone arrive at a steamup and bring their engine up to operating pressure using a blowtorch. Happy Easter. 

"_Cosmetic_" damage is the LEAST of the worries! *RAPID * heating and cooling WILL "*DAMAGE*" the structural integrity of the pressure vessal.

Modern transportation museums that run steam locomotives have been initiating policies to extend the time spent heating a boiler before operation. Some spend up to 8 hours building a fire before the engine is up to proper operating pressure.

Once you have spent a couple million dollars restoring a locomotive to operation, not counting the hundreds of hours of unpaid volunteer work involved to get there, ya tends to be a bit on the protective side of how you handle the equipment. Granted, our 'toys' are considerably cheaper than that, but they still have lots of our blood, sweat and tears into them as well as hard earned dollars and our budgets are not such that we can arbitrarily go buy another one when we destroy it because of our "have it NOW!" impatience of modern society.

Come to my house with a blow torch to heat your boiler and you will be handed a shovel to dig a bunker at one end of my property for the engine and torch and another one at the other end of my property for all the spectators, except the owner of the locomotive. The owner will be required to straddle the boiler while heating it!


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with you Semper -the problem is that some boilers HAVE to be built and are designed for extreme heating... The porcupine boiler listed above was designed for 4 BAR pressure but with an evaporation rate of 0.2 litres of water per minute. It is heated by a forced air/butane ceramic burner that is 7.5cm SQUARE -or if you prefer 125ml of liquid butane per minute!!! The boiler is normally "brought up to pressure", the gas turned off, the gas tank refilled and then the burner re-lit. It takes at least an hour for the loco to cool down. As an engineering demonstration of the Heilmann system -it is a success. The 6 cylinder steam motor turns the dynamo at 2,400 RPM for nearly 10 minutes -but the loco moves at a maximum of 15cm per second. I have always considered it a failure -and something that I will have to return to at a later, (and more knowledgable), date... 

ralph


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a little late chiming in here, but I'll chime in anyway. The point of using the heat method in a hydrostatic test is to use the thermal expansion of WATER to create the pressure in the boiler. If you're making STEAM you're defeating the whole purpose of the hydrostatic test, which is to allow for the possibility that the boiler might fail (so at least it can fail in a relatively safe manner instead of exploding in your face). When you mentioned steam hissing out, that brought all kinds of terrifying images to mind. If your boiler had failed, this could have ended very very badly. Fortunately, your boiler passed the test, or at least it didn't fail catastrophically. You got lucky this time. Next time though, use a pump. Even a goodall valve and squirt bottle would do the job.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

At last, very sound advice, particularly from Semper Vaporo, David Bailey and rwjenkins. I do not understand the cavalier attitude of the self confessed beginner who doesn't seem to wish to pay much attention. For God's sake listen to people who build boilers on a regular basis and test them safely. 

David M-K


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I seem to have really stirred up a hornet's nest here! 
When I did the hydrostatic test using the torch to heat the water, I had filled the boiler completely full of water, including the pipe stem leading to the pressure gauge. If there was air in the boiler, it was only what I could not get out during the process of filling the boiler with water. When the pipe joints leaked because they weren't tight enough, they leaked a small amount of water, not steam. The pinhole that I found at the end of the test was hissing because the water was hot enough to turn to steam as soon as it came through the pin hole. When I emptied the boiler after it cooled down enough to have no pressure in it, the boiler was still full of water, it was running out of the top bushing when I pulled the first plug. 
I used the torch to heat the water because I couldn't get any pressure with any other method. It took almost 10 minutes of heating with the torch for the pressure gauge to show any pressure at all, I was starting to wonder if the gauge was defective. I'm wondering if I should have started with hot water instead of cold water. If I were to use propane to fire this boiler, the burner nozzle would be in pretty much the same place, doing pretty much the same thing, except it would be more controllable for the amount of flame. My safety valve, obtained from PM Research, is set to 60 PSI from the factory, so that's the pressure that I'll run the boiler at. Higher pressure steam would require better piston rings in the cylinders of the steam engine, O rings wouldn't handle the pressure. They might not handle 60 PSI all that well either, I suspect that I'll be replacing them more often than I would at 45-50 PSI operating pressure. If I had the ability to make piston valves and cast iron rings, then I could operate at a higher pressure, 80-100PSI. For gauge 1, that pressure really doesn't seem necessary. Maybe for 7-1/2 inch gauge....


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 08 Apr 2012 10:44 AM 
I seem to have really stirred up a hornet's nest here! 
When I did the hydrostatic test using the torch to heat the water, I had filled the boiler completely full of water, including the pipe stem leading to the pressure gauge. If there was air in the boiler, it was only what I could not get out during the process of filling the boiler with water. When the pipe joints leaked because they weren't tight enough, they leaked a small amount of water, not steam. The pinhole that I found at the end of the test was hissing because the water was hot enough to turn to steam as soon as it came through the pin hole. When I emptied the boiler after it cooled down enough to have no pressure in it, the boiler was still full of water, it was running out of the top bushing when I pulled the first plug. 
I used the torch to heat the water because I couldn't get any pressure with any other method. It took almost 10 minutes of heating with the torch for the pressure gauge to show any pressure at all, I was starting to wonder if the gauge was defective. I'm wondering if I should have started with hot water instead of cold water. If I were to use propane to fire this boiler, the burner nozzle would be in pretty much the same place, doing pretty much the same thing, except it would be more controllable for the amount of flame. My safety valve, obtained from PM Research, is set to 60 PSI from the factory, so that's the pressure that I'll run the boiler at. Higher pressure steam would require better piston rings in the cylinders of the steam engine, O rings wouldn't handle the pressure. They might not handle 60 PSI all that well either, I suspect that I'll be replacing them more often than I would at 45-50 PSI operating pressure. If I had the ability to make piston valves and cast iron rings, then I could operate at a higher pressure, 80-100PSI. For gauge 1, that pressure really doesn't seem necessary. Maybe for 7-1/2 inch gauge.... 

I apologize for pussyfooting around the safety procedures in my earlier postings. I did not want to offend or scare anybody off of doing things themselves. But I guess I should have taken the "old adage" my son spouts off with sometimes... expecially after something dumb has happened that we have survived... namely:

SAFETY FORCED

It is a bit of a pun on the "Safety First" signs that sprout up here and there in the industrial world. (I think he picked it up from "The Simpson's" or some such TV show. Quite often we speak it with a phony immatation Brooklyn Accent almost as if "First" is being pronounced "'Foiced") But it has a deeper meaning that sometime we have to force ourselves to be SAFETY minded.


As for starting a heated water test (not really what I would call a Hydrostatic test, since there is nothing STATIC about heating water) with warm water... I'd say no! You should (if you have to do a test like this) start with COLD water. You want maximum thermal expansion without getting close to reaching the heat of vaporization (boiling point). Starting with warm water would mean less chance of getting much thermal expansion before the temperature approaches boiling the water.

Fill the boiler with cold water and just let it warm up to room temperature and you should see the pressure rise.


Pistons (and "D"-slide or piston Valves) seal by being SMOOTH surfaced moving parts on SMOOTH surfaced stationary parts. The seal is improved by the presence of WATER and "Steam Cylinder Oil". Cylinders should be honed after being drilled and reamed. Cast iron rings are used in the full sized world. Fiber, rubber, nylon and other higher temp materials (viton) are used in higher quality toy engines for improved seals, but just smooth bore and smooth pistons and oil are used in most of the cheapie engines. (If the piston is moving from the pressure then there is no time for leakage to lose/waste pressure.)


Remember... SAFETY FORCED!


Oh yeah... one more experiment to think about... water has air in it! Fill a clear jug with water to the very top and then seal it and let it sit for several hours. You will notice bubbles of air forming on the sides (thump the containerthey will break loose and form a larger bubble at the top). The amount of air in the water depends on how the water has been treated while getting to the container. Faucet aerators add a LOT of air to the water, splashing while putting it in the container will add more. You can probably never get rid of all the air in the water and even if it is still entrained in the water it is compressable to some extent, which is part of the reason (beside container expansion) why even when using a pump the piston will need to be worked a small amount to build up the pressure before it "locks up" due to hydrostatic pressure ("Hydro lock").


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing! As to stirring up a Hornet's nest... 

These kinds of discussions are absolutely necessary! Those that are "in the know" often forget that they make it look very easy and fail to impart the true knowledge of what is going on AND "WHY". 

Go read about "The Best Friend of Charleston" locomotive. It had a safety valve, so the "engineer" (they call the driver of a locomotive 'Engineer' because early-on he was the fellow what Engineered the design!) knew enough to put a safety valve on the boiler, but he failed to tell his slave, who was acting as the fireman, why it was there and to not put a board on the valve and then sit on the board to make it stop making noises as it releaved the pressure to keep the boiler safe. Apparently the slave only knew the noise bothered him... I say 'apparently' because he did not survive to explain his actions.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem is, if the water in the boiler is hot enough that it's flashing into steam as it escapes from the pinhole, then it is also hot enough to flash into steam if the boiler fails. Remember that water under pressure boils at a higher point than water at atmospheric pressure. At 180psi, the boiling point of water is around 350°F, so in theory you could have a boiler full of 300+° water without making any steam. If some of that water escapes into the atmosphere through a pinhole it will turn into steam as you have seen, and that's probably not a big deal in itself. On the other hand, if your boiler was to fail and suddenly release all of its pressure, the boiling point of the water inside it drops back to 212°, and all of your 300° water will flash instantly and explosively into steam. That is exactly the type of scenario you are testing your boiler to try to avoid. As Charles (Semper Vaporo) pointed out, you're better off starting with colder water instead of hotter water, to allow for more thermal expansion without getting dangerously close to the boiling point. For a test like this, you do not want the water in the boiler going above 212°F at any point in the test.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Since cleaning the boiler after soldering is not my favorite chore, I decided to order a container of Sparex No 2 for doing the cleaning. I've been using coffee pot cleaner, and that works, but it takes a long time, and it's expensive to use. I didn't find any citric acid around here, and since I was going to have to order something anyway, I decided to order the sparex and see how it works. I doubt that I'll get it this week, so maybe I'll try vinegar for cleaning this time, after I fix the pin hole in the flue plate edge seam. I don't know if I'll get to that tomorrow, it's supposed to be cold and windy, not good for working outside.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

hmm... sodium bisulphate... must make sulphuric acid... 

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using Sparex for years. It will burn you if you leave it on your skin for a while - akin to the kind of burn we used to get when overfilling a lighter and it leaked into our pocket and burned our thigh. Just be careful of splashes as it will also eat holes in your clothes - not immediately, but within a week's time..


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

How fast does Sparex normally work? Is it a slow process, or do you have to watch it so that it doesn't eat the boiler metal?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber. 

Speaking as a Chemist I would call it *Sodium Hydrogen Sulphate...* This means that the solution is half the available Hydrogen of Sulphuric Acid. It should clean your spent and burnt flux within an hour. It also means that the solution will clean Copper quite well and provided you have no other metals in the pickling bucket you should end up with a slightly green blue liquid. 

The problem is "*How do I dispose of it?*". 

If you poured it down the drain in the EU or the UK -you would be arrested. The correct procedure is to take it to the local disposal site and have THEM pour it down their special drains to their vats. If there is no local site then your best bet is to mix it with powdered chalk or garden lime 

Citric Acid is available here in the UK from home brewing suppliers in 1 Kilogramme bags for £6.00p. http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Citric_Acid_Granules_1kg.html 

I do not know what part of the USofA you are resident in but there should be local dealers as UK style "Microbreweries" are becoming popular in the USofA. 

regards 

ralph


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber - it works REALLY fast if the part is still hot when submersed - like almost right away. If the part is cool, it takes longer. I generally leave stuff in it for 10-15 minutes if the part is cooled. That's usually enough to remove flux residue. I then remove the part, rinse it, and wire brush it. In my experience it doesn't leave a bright shiny surface, nor have I noticed any discoloration of the liquid as Ralph mentions. You can leave stuff (brass, copper) in it overnight with no fear of it eating the metal. It may slightly etch it, but that's about it. Silver solder a couple pieces of scrap and use them as a test piece your first go-around with it so you're comfortable using it on your parts. 

I've been using the same stuff for a couple of years now and it still works just fine. I spent $20.00 for a cheap crock pot which I keep it in. Warming it up to 150* or so also seems to make it work a bit faster.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight, 

The reason you are not getting Copper II Nitrate discolouration from the Copper II Oxide is the fact that you are using a hot solution -hence no dissolved gasses. I normally work everything from stone cold. That way there are no nasty surprises from things "spitting" at you. As my Chemistry lecturer reminded everyone "Always sit in such a manner that you can run away from your experiment".... 

regards 

ralph


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually Ralph, I seldom (almost never) warm it. I did at the beginning, but generally speaking I just use it at garage temperature as I'm not usually in all that much of a hurry. No idea why I have no discoloration (I'm no chemist) but that's the fact.  Maybe because I'm usually pickling brass, not copper. Additionally, I usually try to submerge the part while it's still hot... maybe that's part of it.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 08 Apr 2012 10:44 AM



Higher pressure steam would require better piston rings in the cylinders of the steam engine, O rings wouldn't handle the pressure. They might not handle 60 PSI all that well either, I suspect that I'll be replacing them more often than I would at 45-50 PSI operating pressure. If I had the ability to make piston valves and cast iron rings, then I could operate at a higher pressure, 80-100PSI. For gauge 1, that pressure really doesn't seem necessary. Maybe for 7-1/2 inch gauge.... 

Amber,

I don't know where you are getting this information from, but it's wrong. Again, speaking from practical experience, silicone O rings in Gauge 1 are more than capable of handling 100psi on a regular basis. I see a scratchbuilt 1:32 Chapelon engine (compound) regularly pulling 20 coach trains at a scale 90-100mph with safeties blowing off at 100psi, and other 2 cylinder engines handling 40 car trains with safeties set at 90psi, on none of these engines do the rings fail. The secret is proper installation, where the OD of the ring has to be smaller than the bore but the ring can roll a little in its groove on the piston.

David M-K
Ottawa


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Interesting, because several of the commenters have said that the silicone O rings used for piston rings have to be replaced periodically due to deterioration from the heat of the steam. It wouldn't surprise me if they can handle the pressure, but for how long?


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I use Viton O-rings and never had one go out. If you lap the bore with fine lapping compound, just so the surface is a bit frosty, the ring will last a very long time. Wearing out rings is probably due to a bore that's just been reamed and not lapped. If you go thru thru trouble of scratchbuilding, add that last step and the job turns out so much better.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

If I remember correctly what I've read, the Viton O rings last much better than the silicone O rings, apparently they can take the heat better? 
When you say "just so the surface is a bit frosty", does that mean that the surface shouldn't be completely smooth?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

Going back to the days when I went drag racing... He means that the bore should have a *satin* finish rather than a polished finish. This enables the oil to sit in the micro grooves and the satin finish also gives a finer wear on the ring. I used to use a 10 micron 45 degree cross hatch honed finish on my Daimler Engines. The "O" ring should actually longitudinally rotate slightly within its slot i.e. the slot should be slightly wider than the thickness of the seal. So, if the thickness of the seal is 3mm then the slot should be 3.3mm. Most people use 10% as it is an easy number... 

regards 

ralph


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Exactly what Ralph said. The satin finish allows oil to set in. If the cylinder is polished to a glass smooth surface the rings will squeegee the oil off and the engine will freeze up. 18" Stilsons will not get it to turn. Been there done that.


Viton is a fairly hard form of rubber. It does not go mooshy will heat, steam or oil. The rings you get at the hardware store are probably Buna. Buna works too, but is a bit softer.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'll keep in mind the 10% extra in the slot for the piston ring when I get to that part. I'm going to try using the Buna O rings first because I can get those locally. Once I figure out which size works the best, then I can order some Viton O rings. I've been working on the cylinders a bit as I can get to them. I have a piece of stainless rod to make pistons out of, it seems to be reasonably workable, but I'll know more about that when I go to make the piston ring slots and cut off the pieces for the pistons. I was going to use sections of a regular bolt, but I think those would start rusting too fast.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's some final numbers for a ring fitting that works.

Cylinder bore: 0.514"
Piston diameter: 0.494"

O-ring: Viton 1/2" OD, 3/8" ID actuall wall thickness 0.070" (supposedly)

Width of ring groove in piston: 0.075" 

Diameter of ring groove in piston: 0.384" 


Pistons for O ring applications are just carriers of the ring. Pistons are not in contact with the cylinder bore in any way. That's why the piston above is fully 0.020" smaller then the cylinder. The diameter of the ring groove in the piston is the critical dimension. It makes the ring "crushed" into the bore just a "TT" bit. It's a matter of trial and error to get the fit right. 


I would suggest buying 100 rings from McMaster Carr. They will be from the same lot and very consistent. So you only have to do trial and error once. Or at least you don't have to fiddle as much. Getting onezee twozee from the hardware store, you don't know what you are getting 


Bore and lap the cylinder first. Fit the ring second. You want the piston as loose as possible, but still maintaining a seal.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

The piece of brass pipe that I'll be using for the pump cylinder seems to be pretty smooth on the inside, so I'll try "lapping" it with a piece of scotchbrite pad. If it turns out too rough, I can always get another piece of pipe to replace it. I think I may have a gland fitting figured out so that I don't have to cut a groove for an O ring in the ram. 
I managed to build a goodall valve this evening that looks like it might work for the boiler. Of course, I won't know until I test it, first to see if it leaks backwards, and then to see if I can pump water into the boiler through it. I also finally was able to resolder the boiler leak this afternoon, I'll test it tomorrow to see if it will hold pressure. I'll do a cold water test using air to pressurize the boiler full of water. I already know that the boiler will handle a lot of pressure, so I'm only going to test it at about 60 PSI to see if it will hold pressure for a period of time. Once I get a working water pump, I'll be able to test it at a higher pressure. 
I also built a nozzle for a squirt bottle for a goodall valve pump. I need to get the flex tubing for it and figure out the connector that goes to the valve.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I haven't bore cylinders yet, but I have polished a lot of brass reflectors. For my money nothing buts a good buffing compound and a drimel with a buffing wheel on it. If you progressively buff the surface you can acheive a mirror fiinish in very little time.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I finally got to re-test the boiler this afternoon. I started about 6 pm or so. I put the 2 pipes on the boiler, one with the valve on it, and one to put the pressure gauge on. Then I filled it full of water and tried to get out all the air that I could. After that, I put the pressure gauge on it's pipe, and the air filler on the valve. I set the air compressor valve for what I thought was about 60 PSI, but it ended up being about 80 PSI. I discovered that you have to shut the valve while you have the tire filler hooked up to the air nozzle, the first couple of times I tried to pressurize it, the pressure would go right back to zero when I removed the tire filler from the air nozzle, and a little water came out of the air nozzle valve. I ended up with about 82 PSI in the boiler. I just checked it a few minutes ago, and the pressure is still holding at 82 PSI, so maybe I finally got all the leaks fixed.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

Congratulations on your first one completed. Now the hard work really begins (unfortunately). The next thing you have to do once you are happy with your boiler is a "steaming test". This will tell you how much steam you can get from your boiler for a given amount of energy fed into it. This is not the efficiency of the boiler -but rather its steam raising ability. Differing boiler designs raise steam at different rates at different pressures. For example a "porcupine boiler" raises steam at a peak between 3 to 4.5 BAR whilst a "Smithies" raises steam at a peak of 2 to 5 BAR. You will also have to investigate some form of "superheater" or atleast a steam dryer to stop hydraulic shock in the pistons. If you have not decided on a linkage system yet could I suggest you investigate the "Hackworth" valve gear as this is very simple and self evident -unlike something like the "Joy" or "Baker" systems. 

regards 

ralph


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Ralph, I had thought of running a coil of small diameter copper tubing around the inside of the top of the boiler in the smokebox to act as a steam dryer, I don't think it would actually superheat the steam in this boiler, but it would probably at least "dry" it out. I actually thought about putting the bushing for the steam valve on the upper flue plate instead of the boiler shell, but I didn't want to complicate the boiler design on my first build. Ideally, the thing to do would be to put the steam valve inside the boiler at the top where the steam collects, and run the outlet through the upper flue plate and through a coil inside the smokebox, but I'm not ready to build that yet.  
I left the boiler pressurized all night last night, and when I checked it this afternoon, it was still pressurized. It had lost a couple of PSI, but I think that was from sitting in the cold basement all night. It was still at about 78 PSI. It was fun letting the pressure out of the boiler! When I opened the valve, I got a squirt of water that went about 20 feet. Now I know how to make an air powered squirt gun.  
Next week, I'll hook up the various parts to the boiler, the pop valve, the small pressure gauge, the steam valve, and the goodall valve, and test it again to see if I have any plumbing leaks with that stuff. The sight glass will have to wait until I get one ready to go. 
I'll have to look up some information on the Hackworth valve gear.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I warned you about that squirt of water!!!!







The force that propelled it was the stretched metal of the boiler shell returning to its normal state.

If you would like to see some of the various valve gear that have been used over the years, download Charlie Dockstader's "Valve Gear" program. Mr. Dockstader released the program to the public domain and has updated it to run in Windows (I have run it in Windows 98 SE, XP and just downloaded it again and it runs just fine in Windows 7). You can get all the parts of the program suite at this web site:

http://jf2.com/bcwrr/Dockstader-Valve-Gear.html

You can download groups of programs to run one at a time if you are really low on disk space (somewhere there is a list of which valve gear are in which of the 15 or so zip files available to download), but I recommend downloading the "All-in-One.zip" file. UnZip it to a place you want to keep it all, then run the program named, "VBStart.exe" and it will present a window with buttons for all 67 of the individual Valve Gear simulators that are available. There is also a PDF document file you can download that explains more about the suite of programs.

It is said you can design valve gear parts using this set of programs but I have not tried it... I get too fascinated watching the animations!


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Of course, the air that i pumped into the boiler to pressurize the water may have had some effect on the water squirting out when I opened the valve.  
I'll have to check out that program, it would probably be very useful for designing valve gear for a steam engine. It might even help make sense of some of the valve gear setups.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Whats a "steam dryer"?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 14 Apr 2012 06:14 AM 
Whats a "steam dryer"? 


When enough calories are added to liquid water the temperature will reach the boiling point. Then you have to add LOTS MORE heat to get it to convert to a gas. That is called the Heat of Vaporization. But the temperature of the gas form of water does not change with all that added heat. When not contained in a pressure vessel, the temperature will be 212 degrees (F) (100 Celsius). BOTH the liquid water AND the Gaseous Steam will be at that same temperature. 

But the gaseous form is now insulated from the heat source by the water and starts to lose calories and will revert to the liquid state (condense).

The condensed water is held in suspension in the gaseous form as very tiny droplets... maybe even only 2 or 3 molecules of water attached to each other. When they come in contact with more molecules that have lost heat energy, they will join and eventually become too heavy to remain in suspension and will essentially become "rain drops" and fall back to the bottom (or into the water that is being heated). That liquid water in suspension is NOT COMPRESSIBLE! That is a very important thing to note.

The steam around the liquid form of joined molecules is compressible and is attempting to expand, but in a boiler it is contained (Hopefully!) by the pressure vessel and you get pressure that can do work. So you pass that "wet" steam (gas with liquid suspended in it) through a valve (throttle) and on to the valve gear and cylinder/piston to use that pressure to move the piston. But the steam is continuing to condense to water and losing pressure. And that liquid form of the water, being as that it is not compressible, has no pressure in and of itself and is thus not capable of doing any work to move the piston. It is just water flowing in the pipes and taking up space and using energy being pushed around, energy that would be better used to move the piston to do the work desired of the engine.

Ideally all the pipes and the valves and the cylinders should be heated to above the temperature at which the steam was formed. To raise the heat energy in the steam and keep more molecules in the gaseous state.

There are actually two ways to separate the liquid form of water from the gaseous form (or "dry" it).

One way is to spin the "wet" steam in a centrifuge. No, not the kind that an astronaut trains in, but a container where the "wet" steam enters from the side and is deflected by some baffles to cause it to spin in a circular motion. The liquid water will want to travel in a straighter line than the gaseous form and thus move to the outside of the container and the gaseous form will tend to deflect more and can be extracted out via a pipe near the center of the container. Thus you get "dry" steam out of the "Steam Dryer" and the liquid form condenses on the outer walls and drains out via slots in the bottom of the container.

The other way is to pass the "wet" steam through a pipe that is close to the heat source where it picks up additional calories (heat) and the liquid droplets again revert to a gas. It this pipe is just in the smoke box then not much heat is added and it is called a "Steam Dryer". If the pipe passes close to the fire, like the pipe is threaded into the flue of the boiler or actually into the firebox, then LOTS of heat is added and it is called a "Super Heater".

Now, as to that compressing water with air... consider this thought experiment:

You have a container made of titanium steel and it has 10 ft thick walls around a void in the middle that is about 1 cubic ft in volume. There are two openings. One is a valve out the side and one is for a piston that can be inserted from the top. You fill the void with water, close the valve and insert a piston. Being sure that there is no air in the system (NONE!). Now, you put a 100 pound weight on the piston to push it down into the void in the container. The container is so thick and strong that it does not stretch and cannot deform in any way. Then weld the piston into the position so it cannot move in any direction; either out or further in. Since it is welded in place, you could take the weight off of it and it won't release the pressure that has been applied to it.

Now open the valve in the side of the container. What happens?

I will tell you that NO water will come out! If there was no air in the system to compress and the container did not stretch and the piston cannot move from its position, then the water has no pressure and will NOT squirt out. Water is not compressible.

When a boiler of water is compressed by attaching a compressed air source, the boiler will expand like a rubber balloon, just not as much as a rubber balloon. The water that squirts out is because the boiler shell is contracting to its original size, not because the water has any pressure in it.

The very real DANGER of using compressed air to pressurize an UNKNOWN quality pressure vessal is that the vessel COULD burst. IF the source of air is capable of supplying an unlimited quantity of air then there is a very real danger of an EXPLOSION. Not because the water has any energy in it, but because the compressed air pushing on it has energy in it and it will push the water our the rupture and there will be an equal and opposite reaction to the moving water, which will move the container the other direction in direct proportion to the mass and speed of the content of the vessel.

Another experiment you can think about (or actually do part of it!):

Fill a balloon with water and then attach a pressure gauge to the balloon and measure the pressure. The normal cheap balloon will probably have no more than a pound or two. Now stick the balloon with a pin and watch where the water goes. Does it just fall to the ground in a big splash or does it violently travel around the room in all directions?

Now fill the balloon with air and measure the pressure. It should also be just a pound or two. Now stick a pin in the balloon. What happens? Does it make a LOUD NOISE? Does it toss parts of the balloon all over the place?

Now, imagine putting 60 pounds of pressure in a "balloon" that is full of water. Pop it! What happens? I'll tell you that the water will fall to the floor in a splash just like the cheap balloon with 1 or 2 pounds of pressure.

Now imagine doing that with air in the "balloon" and what kind of noise it would make! "Pop" just will not describe the sound with any sort of accuracy. Do you really think it would be wise to have your own body parts in the vicinity? How far from this "balloon" would you want your antique curved glass china cabinet?

Did you ever have one of those toy rockets that you fill 1/2 way with water and then attach it to a pump to inject air into it? Then you aim it UP (and not at your sibling! and NOT IN THE HOUSE!... and of course you did heed the warning to not pump more than 10 to 15 strokes... yeah right!) and pull a release catch that releases the rocket from the pump. The compressed air pushes the water out the bottom and the rocket goes "hundreds" (yeah, right!) of feet in the air! 

If you do not put water in it, but just pump it with air, it might get a few inches off the pump nozzle. If you fill the rocket all the way with water, then it is lots more difficult to pump air into it. You CAN get some air into it and it gets absorbed into the water, or the rocket shell stretches to accommodate the increased volume, but it is very difficult to work the pump. When you release the catch the vessel walls will relax and shove some water out the bottom and the air that is contained in the water will come out and push some water out, but the rocket flight will be dismal and when it lands there will still be water in the rocket because there was not enough quantity of pressure to push it all out. The only quantity was the stretched container (the body of the rocket) and the small amount of air that got in and compressed due to the body stretching to make a larger volume of the container.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for that Charles. My reply was more sarcastic then anything else though.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

It seems that I lost a few days worth of postings in the forum "glitch", so I'll have to go back to the part about firing the boiler. I've decided to build a propane burner for the boiler. I'm going to try building a "flat top" burner with multiple holes in the top and see if that works. With a vertical boiler, I don't think a burner made from a piece of tubing would work very well. It's not like a horizontal monotube boiler where you can put the burner right in the flue tube. I'm thinking about using a pipe cap as the top of the burner and drilling a number of holes in it for the gas to come out of. I'm not sure how small to drill the holes. They need to be big enough to let some gas out, but not too big. I'm going to try using the end of a "pencil point" propane torch for the jet, that way I also have a valve for the gas. I'm not sure what kind of flexable line to use between the burner and the valve and tank, I plan on separating the burner jet from the tank connection so it's easier to set the thing up. Now, I just have to find a few parts to put it together.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I should congratulate you again on a successful test and I am looking forward to your work on the burner.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I wonder what those who have succesfully built boilers have to say about this thread.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well Jeremiah, so far, they've had quite a lot to say about it, especially concerning the way that I pressure tested it.  
I've gotten a lot of helpful information from this thread so far, and I really appreciate all the people who were kind enough to put up links to information that I could use with my build.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeremiah and Amber-- 

I for one have built some boilers and find this thread useful, educational and fun to follow. I am happy to see Amber's progress!


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

The plot thickens.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Ah yes, like a good mystery novel...  
But then, they say that corn starch will also help thicken it...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I haven't made much progress on this project, I need to buy another part for the gas burner assembly. I plan on using a brass pipe cap for the top of the burner and drill a number of small holes in it for the gas to come through. The last pipe cap that I bought was poorly threaded, so I need to get another one. I want the parts to thread together so that I don't have to solder anything together. I don't know how hot the assembly will get, and I really wouldn't want a solder failure. I suppose that if I silver braised it together, I wouldn't have to worry about the heat melting the solder joints. I'm going to use the jet from a small propane torch and see if it will work with the burner head that I'm trying to build. It will at least be an interesting experiment, if nothing else.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Miss Amber, 

You HAVE to silver solder everything together. This is the only way your burner will take the thermal stresses. If you remember your old school chemistry lab -the Bunsen Burner... You will need to ensure that your Propane or Butane is gaseous when it reaches the burner jet. This is not normally a problem for Propane but can be a real problem for Butane. G1MRA recommends that you have some form of heater coil for Butane (Some manufacturers solder a coil to the side of the boiler to ensure that the gas IS a gas!) Another problem you will have is the air to gas mixture.. As the burner will be inside the loco you will not be able to see the flame colour. Thus the lesson of the Bunsen Burner! If the fumes from the burner (when sniffed delicately) cause you to want to cough -or your eyes to water SWITCH OFF IMMEADIATLY!!! You are generating Carbon Sub Oxide C2O2 -which are extremely toxic, too much air will cause the burner to "strike back" and the flame will sit just over the jet and emit a screaming sound -and generate heat in the wrong area. 

I solved the problem of getting the right amount of air to my burner by fitting it with a sealed CPU cooling fan and then altering the voltage until I had the correct air/gas mix. 

I have seen DIY burner made with the jets from model air brushes used to great effect 

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/gases.pdf 

regards 

ralph


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, my first idea for the propane burner didn't work. I melted a hole in the brass fitting while trying to get the silver braising rod to flow and stick to it. OOPS! Oh well, a learning experience. I need to buy another fitting and try it again. I think I'll try "pre tinning" the parts with the silver rod, so that when I try to solder them together I won't have to worry about getting the rod to stick to the brass parts. Of course, it might be easier to just do it with copper parts, the silver rod seems to flow better on copper.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 05 May 2012 09:58 AM 
Well, my first idea for the propane burner didn't work. I melted a hole in the brass fitting while trying to get the silver braising rod to flow and stick to it. OOPS! Oh well, a learning experience. I need to buy another fitting and try it again. I think I'll try "pre tinning" the parts with the silver rod, so that when I try to solder them together I won't have to worry about getting the rod to stick to the brass parts. Of course, it might be easier to just do it with copper parts, the silver rod seems to flow better on copper. 

Amber.... something that you should work on, almost to the exclusion of everything else...


How to make money from the "learning experience".


Then when you figure it out, tell me how. I have a box of "learning experience" that will make me independently wealthy when I collect the back wages from them.


Oh... wait a minute... maybe have to modify that a wee bit... make that just "experience"... considering the number of similar items in the box I don't seem to have really "learned" from a lot of the "experiences".


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

If at first you don't succeed, wreck yet another piece? LOL Being new to this, I haven't had much chance to add to the scrap box yet.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber,
pre-tinning with silver solder is not such a good idea. First, the pre-tinned area has a higher melting point compared to the fresh silver solder. Secondly, it is harder to get a consistent small gap. I think, your silver solder with a relatively low content of silver has a melting point, which comes dangerously close to the one of brass. I always use the 45% silver containing solder and never have problems melting the brass. And BTW, you can never have too much flux! With pickling baths like citric acid residues completely dissolve within minutes. Continue to have fun!

Regards


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

See, this is what happens when I listen to the guy at the welding supply store when he said "oh, you don't need flux when you're silver soldering brass to brass." 
I guess I'll have to check the price on the 45% silver rod, and if he'll sell it to me by the piece like he does the 15% silver rod. 

Another thing I just learned the hard way, it's pretty easy to break off the tip of a number 43 drill bit in a piece of brass strip. I did it twice. The drill bit broke off, leaving the tip in the hole, of course. I resharpened the bit, drilled more holes, the 4th hole, the bit broke off again. I decided that it was time to try using oil on the bit, and use less pressure on the drill press handle. That seemed to work better. I was drilling a series of holes in a piece of brass strip to make square nuts for 4-40 thread. Now I have to tap them all, and then cut them off the strip into little squares. I even got most of the holes drilled in the center of the little squares that I had marked off. I center punched them before drilling, but a couple of the punch marks were off center slightly. That, and the drill press has a bit of runout on the chuck. A small milling machine would drill these much easier, but I don't have one.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Whoops! Now I am cornfused... (so what else is new?)

I thought 15% silver solder would melt at a lower temp than 45%. So, somebody 'splain it to me.


As for drilling, depending on the copper content, brass can get "grabby" when drilling and seize a drill bit at the most inoportune times. It seems to work-harden like pure copper does. The oil will keep the bit cooler and reduce the work-hardening. (You'd thiink that the metal getting hot would anneal it and make it softer and easier to drill, but experience has shown me that it doesn't.)

As for sharpening a #43 bit.... you are doing pretty good to do that in my experience! I have never been able to resharpen small bits (and don't do all that good with big fat ones either!)... but I usually break them off at the upper end of the flutes and there is not enough left of either end of the bit to be worth much, so I don't really get that much practice anyway!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

If you ain't making scrap, you ain't learning anything. hehehe


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Semper, 

The word you are looking for is *EUTECTIC*. 

I normally use two solders Silver-Flo24 and B6. The former melts at 600C and the latter at 800C. The former has 24% silver and the latter 16%. When the carrier metal melts -the silver dissolves into it lowering the freezing point of the carrier metal(!) When the silver has all dissolved it then starts to dissolve the parent metal -lowering ITS melting point... The *Difference* between the original melting point and the new freezing point is called the Eutectic barrier. The most famous event when this was proven was in the original casting of "The Statue of David" in bronze. Michaelangelo (in order to save himself some money) used OLD bronze scrap to cast the statue. He couldn't get the bronze to melt. In the end after 3 days of "firing" he went and threw in all his tin pots, pans and plates into the furnace to make molten tin. This then dissolved the bronze he then had to add more copper to it to bring the casting mixture back to "flow". The entire lumpy mess (and it really was!) was poured into the clay mould. The problem now was the mess was not a true even alloy and as the mess cooled the tin copper eutectic crystalised copper and tin and dissolved them several times as the eutectic effects manifested. Thus the proportions that are "wrong" with "the Statue of David" are down to the cheapskate casting prowess of Michaelangelo -and not the "artistic"..... 

regards 

ralph


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

When drilling free machining Brass the Drill needs to be "backed off" that is the shrap edge needs a stone rubbed down the flute to take off the sharp edge, this will stop the drill "grabbibg" when drilling.
David Bailey DJB Model Engineering Ltd


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

Funney how you do not see your spelling mistakes until after you have uploaded the post, it should be "sharp" and not shrap and "grabbing" and not grabbibg.
I have not got used to my new glasses.
David Bailey


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph,
can you elude on the difference between the "easyflow" composition with 45% silver and your solder, which seems to melt at the same temperature? Is it as "easy" flowing as the classic? I use this from McMaster:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/3392/=hf0mxx 

Talking about small drill bits and brass. I had a similar experience as Amber. When I drilled small holes for the rivets of my Guinness loco, they broke *before* exiting the hole. After I used cutting fluid, all was well. 

Regards


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, interestingly enough, both times the tip of the drill bit broke off, it was before the hole was all the way through. There's a cone shaped bump on the back side of the brass strip where the bit was going through the brass. I wonder if the type of drill bit has anything to do with where it breaks when it breaks? I think this drill bit is just high speed steel, nothing fancy. 
As for sharpening the bit, I'm not really all that good at it. The bit never cuts quite as well as it did when new, probably the angles on the tip after grinding them. I reground the #43 bit with less angle on the tip, hoping that it would be a little less "grabby", it might have helped a little, maybe. When I break a drill bit, if there's enough left to sharpen, I usually grind the tip flat first, and then grind the angles. That usually gets rid of the broken area on the side of the bit, unless it's bad. Those bits are really hard to resharpen. I keep saying that I'm going to get one of those drill bit sharpening machines, but I haven't yet. I'd certainly have enough use for one, considering what I do to drill bits with a hand drill.  
I think this 15% silver rod is supposed to melt at about 1150 degrees F, if I remember correctly. It melts easily enough with my oxy-propane torch, but then, so does brass.


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Henner, 

Does somebody else need new glasses(?) Silver-Flo-24 melts at *600* degrees Centigrade and B6 melts at *800* degrees Centigrade. Both are made by Johnson Matthey. The original Easi-Flo2 is now no longer available as it contains Cadmium... I have found the "24" alloy to be very good -if somewhat fussy about the flux you use! "B6" is like super glue which is both good and bad. YES it will stick anything to anything BUT there is no room for error -you can *never* heat it up and get it apart again!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

If I'm not mistaken and remember correctly what I was taught, the correct geometry for drill bits and lathe cutting bits for use with brass are supposed to wind up with zero rake. While being a bit of expense those that do a fair amount of work with brass have a set of bits that they only use for brass. Now that I think about it, I was also taught that if you're going to use your files on brass, buy them new and never use them on steel.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 06 May 2012 11:22 AM 
Henner, 

Does somebody else need new glasses(?) Silver-Flo-24 melts at *600* degrees Centigrade and B6 melts at *800* degrees Centigrade. Both are made by Johnson Matthey. The original Easi-Flo2 is now no longer available as it contains Cadmium... I have found the "24" alloy to be very good -if somewhat fussy about the flux you use! "B6" is like super glue which is both good and bad. YES it will stick anything to anything BUT there is no room for error -you can *never* heat it up and get it apart again!!! 

regards 

ralph Ralph,
now you have me completely confused. In the US, cadmium bearing silver solder with a melting point of 1125F = 607C is still available, see my link to McMaster. It is the same composition as the classic EasyFlow. This is the stuff I use all the time: 45% Ag, 15% Cu, 16% Zn, 24%Cd. For tight joints and melting point of 1125 F. McMaster order # 7676A7 or 7676A6.

Regards


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Henner, 

Errrmmm... It has been ILLEGAL to sell Cadmium bearing rods since 2009 in the EU(!) The alloy is 24% Ag, 43% Cu, 33% Zn. There is (I believe) an "S" version which contains about 2% Sn which is said to flow very well -but I have never used it. 

regards 

ralph


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## Ora Banda (Jan 2, 2008)

Checkout these people... probably all you'll need to know about the various silver solders, fluxes and usages... and help make an informed choice relative to our model engineering hobby.

http://www.cupalloys.co.uk

Usual disclaimer... just a happy customer.

Regards... John

http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/popular-silver-solders-leads-to-prices-c26.html


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

Errrmmm, no, its only been illegal since last December, so suppliers were able to use up old stock until then, I stocked up before then as I do not like the new alloys, they stay liquid too long.
David Bailey


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Haven't heard from Amber in awhile. Did she blow herself up?


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

No, I'm still here.  I still haven't gotten the parts to make the propane burner for the boiler, hopefully I'll get them this weekend.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Man, I feel like I'm learning more everytime I look at this thread


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'll be having another go at making the propane burner for the boiler this week. The brass parts didn't work, so I'm going to try copper parts. I bought a 1-1/4 inch pipe cap for the burner body. I just have to solder an inlet pipe in the side of it and a cover plate for the bottom. We'll see how this idea goes....


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

How to test a live steam model boiler from an authority: 

http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/magazine/187/index.htm 

This should clarify what is a safe boiler pressure testing procedure and exactly what is required. 


Norman


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## spring (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi, I like your motto "Goals are dreams with deadlines"!


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