# Ladder materials questions



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm getting ready to start my layout and have been reading about the various types. Leaning towards the ladder method so while at homedepot I started looking at materials. I was originally considering that plastic deck wood but to make the curves I think I'd have to rip it to get it thin enough to bend plus it's pretty expensive. Then in the trim area I found some sort of final trim pieces that seem very flexible. There was some 1" by 3/4" and even some standard floor trim that looked like would be very easy to work with. Has anyone tired any of that stuff? It all adds up pretty fast so I don't want to waste money on re-dos. It will be raised off ground about 6-8" then back filled with gravel for the ROW and dirt for planting beyond that. Any input will be appreciated


----------



## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm the G Gauge guy from GBay, WI who bought a pallet of BearBoard from Elgin, IL......fpr my elevated curved ladder layout.. 

In the end I spent $525 plus $100 for shipping to get 340 ft (26 planks of Choc Brown) Bearboard structure. BearBorad is milk jug plastic 

plus powered rock formula. Each ripped 2x4 by 8 ft ($20ea 3 years ago) covers 15 ft of roadbed... plus needed cut spacer blocks.... 

4 Rip cuts (3 heavy plus the skin cut) leaves nice 3/4" by 1.5" by 8 ft flexible BearBoard ladder "walls"........ 

Ripping requires a 20 or 24 tooth table saw with lower RPM (Revs per Minute)... to minimize cutting heat..... 

The Plastic fuzzy saw dust did jamb up a BIG Shop Vac about 8 or 9 times...... But BearBoard cuts easy..... like butter.... 

I did experiment with 100% milk jug ripped lumber from near GBay.... But it is too flexible/soft in the heat... OK for a siding..... 

Double click on my ID photo to the left to see 4 photos of the ladder layout before I added 332 SS Aristo "track bende"r Track with slip on ties. 

Dennis M


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used the plastic trim, (Veranda) Home Depot sells. Very easy to work with. If you watch Menard's has it on sale once in a while.
I used 1 1/2" pvc pipe for up rights, 30" into the ground.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I too used the Plastic trim board from HD for my 8 foot by 24 foot loop in the front yard last summer. I also raised it and back filled but I only used the Limestone crusher run. While it packed in OK, it also settled a lot over the pretty mild winter we ahd in Western NY state and will require some pretty extensive re-ballasting in a few weeks when the asphalt plant near my house opens for the season. I too used PVC pipe driven into the ground to support the ladder. I choose to support at 18 inches or less apart with spacer blocks in between that. I am plannign expansion this summer too...Already have some PVC trimboard stockpiled in the garage. 

Chas


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I also used the Ladder method when building my layout. I would link the thread but unfortunately this website closes if I try that!!! 

It is located about page 3 or 4 called "Building the D&BHW" It has a lot of pictures on how I build my roadbed.


----------



## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

There is also a new type of treated lumber available, but I have yet to find any of it locally.

It's the typical southern yellow pine, but instead of being treated with toxic chemicals, it's pressure cooked with sodium silicate in large kilns. The wood fibers end up getting encased in GLASS! Supposedly very stable - will not absorb water and will not warp or twist. It's also very heavy and stiffer than the untreated base wood. Cut edges will absorb water, but supposedly a coat of epoxy sealer takes care of that. Uncut wood is rated for ground contact.

I don't know what the stuff costs, but I'm sure it ain't cheap. But when I build that elevated line, I don't want to ever redo it, so more money up front seems like a sound investment.

The stuff is called "Timbersil" and there are only a few distributors.

http://www.timbersilwood.com/

Supposedly cuts with normal woodworking tools and the resulting saw/glassdust is nontoxic. Installation guidelines are here:

http://www.timbersilwood.com/pdf/Installation of TimberSIL GlassWood v 11.pdf

MDSD is here:

http://www.timbersilwood.com/pdf/material-safety-data.pdf

Distributors:

http://www.timbersilwood.com/authorized-dealers.html 


In case anyone's wondering, I don't work for them and own no stock. I've just been looking at materials for outdoor usage for a while. This stuff seems like it might have promise. Now I just need to score a couple of pieces and leave it outside for a summer and winter.

Cheers,
Brian


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Mickey,
Have you considered using PVC? Here are a few photos of how I make roadbed from PVC pipe and PVC lattice strips I get at Lowes.










The stanchions are 24" lengths of 1 1/4" Schedule 40 pipe with angle cuts on the bottom for easy driving.










The 1/4" x 1 1/2" lattice strips come in 8 foot lengths. This is a close-up of the SKU tag.











The spacers are pieces of 1" Schedule 40 PVC pipe cut to 1.66" long. This is the outside diameter of the stanchions.










I make splice plates from the lattice and bolt them to the stringers with 1" long 1/4"-20 carriage bolts.










Here's what it looks like when assembled. All that is left is to drive the stanchions to final height and bolt the stringers to the stanchions with 2 1/2" long 1/4"-20 carriage bolts. Then backfill with soil or gravel and add the track.


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

So I'm trying to understand the process of building a ladder and making it follow your turns. Do you lay out the track and mark it's path, the drive post and build it one side at a time (which is what the pic looks like) or do you builds the ladder in sections on flat surface then move to site and add center post? The issue for me is I have a section coming out of tunnel, crossing a large step stone (to that point no ladder needed), then going into an S turn which goes into a 90 into another S. there are some straights in there but only way to get thru one section. Seems to me the bes would put all the track together on flat area and build it to match all the curves. But maybe not.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob,

Your photos of your ladder build is very timely for me. I'm having trouble finding the PVC vinyl fascia board, out here in California. If I do locate it, it's like $150 per 20 footer. My local Lowes HAS the 1/4" X 1 1/2" lattice board! My layout is Fn3 D&RGW during the thirties and forties.

Lots of great info on your website. Great place to browse.


----------



## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Mickey....... Elevated curved ladder supported layout on the internet is discussed by Paul Race of Ohio. Google: Paul Race Curved Ladder.. 

I believe all curved ladder building requires a Track Bender.... Of which Aristocraft has the least expensive model. 

PVC Pipe locations define the shape & position of the Roadbed. Curved roadbed appears when pipes are not in a straight line. 

The desired curved ladder shape can be done two approximate ways: Lay a garden hose on the ground & chalk...... OR 

Use a scale layout drawing (computer or hand) and place PVC pipes first at all the tangent point coordinates (curve meets a straight)..... 

Then lay on the ground either a Straight 2x4 OR for Curves.... Lay on the Ground segmented curve tracks of your Minimum Curve Diameter. 

Mark these new pipe locations with a "built Wood Gardeners compass" set to about 24 inches apart following the straight or curved ground track shape.. 

The actual/ average ladder shape will be close to the desired shape due to post location induced curve variability. 

Per Paul Race... You generally have to build an 8 ft long wood tool that allows adding/fixing spacer blocks to one ladder flex side..... unless 

you use tube spacers per Bob H above...... Self tapping solid spacer block stainless screws do lock in the curve shape between the pounded posts.... 

Adding 1 or 2 drilled holes to the spacer blocks only.... Makes for nice power or switch wire concealment...... 


Before I get too tangled in text...... I'm leave the rest of fabrication info to future Curved Ladder questions...... 

Dennis M from GBay, WI


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a lot easier to use 5 foot flex track then sectional track. I drove a metal rod in to the ground were I wanted the center of my circle. Then use a 3/4" plastic pipe cut to the radius I wanted with a pipe T on the end. Started my first hole, drilled a 3" hole at the end of the 3/4" pipe. Then I moved the 3/4" pipe two feet and drilld the next hole. This gives you a very good circle. Add your ladder then your track, bend track to fit the ladder.

Don


----------



## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Question: 

Using PVC material could you use the PVC cement on the splice plates also?


----------



## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Curved Ladder splice plates are normally cut as "double long" spacer blocks....... 

Self tapping Stainless 1.5" long deck screws hold the splice joint together in a standard assembly.... Some time double 
screws are needed to both support ladder lateral bend loads and make a vertical anti rotation joint fixity..... 

Using PVC cement is a hold or no hold situation..... Not fully positive in tension or rotation load cases. 

Joint forces are related to post movement, temperature changes, and curved track lateral bend layout areas..... 

PVC cement might work on a straight layout section joint...... but I would not trust PVC bonded joint to a curved layout section with huge lateral bend loads... 

Just my thoughts here.... 

Dennis M


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

I wouldn't recommend using PVC cement to attach the splice plates. I gap the stringers 1/8" at each joint and elongate the holes in the splice plates so that the carriage bolts can move laterally to take care of thermal expansion in the PVC stringers. I trim 1/8" from the top of the piece of lattice so that the splice plate doesn't interfere with the track. Here is a drawing of a splice plate: 










The PVC cement is fine for attaching the spacers in between the stringers. I do not use mechanical fasteners to attach the spacers and have never had a problem with a failed glue joint. Here is a drawing of how the PVC components go together:










I make each section of ladder roadbed between splice plates six feet long. This allow me to use either six foot sections of rail if I am hand spiking the track, or six foot sections of flex track. This way, the expansion joints in the rail line up directly above the expansion joints in the PVC stringers. The total cost of this type of construction runs slightly under five dollars per foot, including both the roadbed and the track. Here is a cost breakdown showning the cost-per-foot of this PVC method with hand spiked track:



















Notes on Cost Analysis:
[*] There is no cost associated with the splice plates because there is a 2-foot remnant left over from the 8-foot PVC lattice strip after cutting each stringer. This remnant is used to make two splice plates.
[*] The cost of detergent, wood preservative, paint, foam and adhesives is not included.
[*] The cost of optional tie plates and dummy rail splice plates for hand-spiked track is not included.
[*] The cost of optional rail joiners is not included.
[*] The cost of turnout components (frogs, points, and guard rails) is not included.
[*] Bolt, washer, and nut costs are based on zinc-plated grade 2 steel in quantity 100 lots. You can also use galvanized steel or stainless steel but this would increase the cost of these items by two-fold or four-fold, respectively.
[/list]


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Also, since I brought up the subject of thermal expansion in the previous reply, here is my rationale for the expansion joints. I use aluminum rail so my design was predicated on the extreme difference between the rates of thermal expansion in aluminum and PVC.

Aluminum has a coefficient of linear expansion of 12.3 while PVC is 28. This means that for every degree (Fahrenheit) of temperature increase, a one inch long piece of aluminum rail will expand .0000123 inches and a one inch long piece of PVC will expand 0.000028 inches. In other words, expansion of the PVC is the primary consideration, not the aluminum rail.

On a 6-foot long module, the PVC stringers will expand 0.002016 inches with every degree of temperature rise. The 0.125 inch gap between modules specified in this article assumes that the ambient temperature when the module is built and installed is approximately 75 degrees. For the PVC stringers to completely close this gap, the temperature would need to rise to 137 degrees. Even at this temperature, the aluminum rails would still not be touching.

Similarly, if the temperature drops from 75 degrees to -25 degrees, the gap between the ends of the stringers would increase from 0.125 to 0.3266 inches. However, the gap between the ends of the rails would only increase to 0.2135 inches.

Bottom line – you can run your trains at -25 degrees or at +137 degrees or anywhere in between without worrying about kinks or open gaps!


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The issue for me is I have a section coming out of tunnel, crossing a large step stone (to that point no ladder needed), then going into an S turn which goes into a 90 into another S 
Mickey, 

You have a complicated situation there. The tunnel really needs to be 'maintainable' - you need to be able to get at the track and fix it if it develops problems. 

It occurs to me that Bob's (excellent) explanation of his splices also allows you to make a removable section - set up a section with wing nuts on the splice plates so you can remove them if necessary. Support the tunnel ladder with bricks, rocks or whatever - you can't pound pipe inside a tunnel. Make the rail on top the same length and use rail clamps to attach it. Then, if the tunnel gives you problems (small animal dies on the tracks?) you can un-bolt and un-clamp and pull out that section. 

I make splice plates from the lattice and bolt them to the stringers with 1" long 1/4"-20 carriage bolts. 
Bob - great photos - thanks! 

You may have solved my dilemma - how to make the whole thing removable in the off-season. If the sections are spliced together with removable bolts, and the uprights are similarly bolted to the ladder, then it can be un-bolted and removed to a save storage area, leaving the pipes sticking up to trip unsuspecting wanderers.


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

The tunnel was made with that large culvert black plastic pipe. It is about 10' long with a 90 at one end. It is under several feet of dirt, etc. but I made an access point mid way. I plan on just flattening the bottom of it with decomposed granite and just letting the track float on the top of it so the ladder will not be in that area. All except this S part is pretty easy as it is just 10' and 12' radius with straights. However, I will be using sectional and NOT flex or bendable. I think I will try the S portion and see how it goes. I may end up back at my original where I use landscape borders to contain a ROW filled with gravel and let the track just float on top. I'll try to post some pics of tunnel and progress as I go.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I plan on just flattening the bottom of it with decomposed granite and just letting the track float on the top of it so the ladder will not be in that area 
Mickey, 

My comment (in the deck vs raised garden thread) about ballast needing replacement every year was real - it does disappear. If you have any kind of water flow it will be worse! I'd hate to have to fix it inside a 10' tunnel. 

I had a tunnel similar to yours, only shorter, built with chimney liner tube (10' ID and 24" long - I used 3 of them under a particularly droppy tree.) I ran a piece of pressure-treated wood along the bottom with two thin trim strips along the sides to keep the track roughly in the center. The track sat on top and could easily be removed, cleaned, etc.


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Mickey,
As to your basic question of how you layout the ladder route, there are a couple of different ways to get there. (1) You can draw your route plan on paper or a computer and then transfer the measurements to the garden. (2) You can layout pieces of track on the ground and mark the position where the stanchions need to be driven. (3) You can "free-form" it and mark the intended route with flags or a garden hose, and then tweak it until it "looks right." I use the third method, but it only works with flex track or hand spiked track. This photo shows how I lay out the route for ladder roadbed. The marker flags are two feet apart. I drive a stanchion at each flag location. This particular stretch was 108 feet long, used 53 stanchions, and was made from eighteen six-foot long modules. After the stanchions were driven, I located each by measuring the distance to two known reference points in the yard (triangulation), and plugged the locations into a computer CAD program to create a drawing of the route.


----------



## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Great stuff on the building of the roadbed 

Now one more question. 

In other scales (ie HO) it is recommended to stagger rail joints to prevent any kinks in the rail using flex track. Is that going to be the same for us? 

What about the Ladder? should they be staggered also.


----------



## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Good Question on elevated layout Joints........... 

Using G Gauge "ladder" Flex track rails.... I DO NOT stagger the rail joints more that 1/2".... This staggering of rail ends complicates using slip on 12" ties...... 

If I do have a rail lateral joint kink...... I use either 1 or 2 four bolt split jaw clamps (in lieu of a 2 bolt clamp) to correct the kinked rail joint.....



I always stagger the plastic wood ladder structure joints to minimize "local lateral kinks" at a ladder joint..... I do cheat a bit on straight ladder sidings..... using no joint stagger.. 

Dennis M...


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis,
The advantage to staggering rail joints decreases as the scale gets larger. In the smaller indoor scales, a small mis-alignment can be disasterous and lead to all kinds of operating difficulties. In large-scale, this same amount of discrepancy is hardly noticeable. I do stagger the rail joints on my indoor Sn3 layout. I do not on my outdoor Fn3 layout. I keep the joints in the PVC stringers even so that I can easily remove a six-foot long roadbed module, take it to my workbench, and either add ties and hand spike the rail or attach flex track while sitting in a comfortable position. For hand spiked track, I do leave the last few inches of the rail unspiked until I put the module back on the layout and bolt it to the adjacent module. Then I align the rail ends and spike them to the last few ties. The alignment is accurate enough that rail joiners are not needed (I run on batteries, so rail joiners are not needed for electrical connections.)


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Here are links to pic of the tunnel and the S for clarification.

S layout[/b]
www.dilloware.com/IMG_0488.jpg

Tunnel Layout[/b]
www.dilloware.com/IMG_1226.jpg

Ready to bury it with cement collars to minimize dirt/water leaking down later. I guess I forgot to take picture of the access port but it was just
another section of the same pipe cut into a saddle and stainless screws to attache it to the main pipe. Lift the lid and reach down in.

Access Port[/b]
www.dilloware.com/IMG_1355.jpg

Covered with gravel for drainage[/b]
www.dilloware.com/IMG_1366.jpg

Finished with dirt. Onions and cantaloupe planted[/b]
www.dilloware.com/IMG_1145.jpg


OOPS, sorry forgot the 1 in the IMG picture number. Also not sure exactly how you make it so it is just a clickable link.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

www.dilloware.com/IMG_0355.jpg 
www.dilloware.com/IMG_0226.jpg 
Those last two gave me an HTTP 404 - not found.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis,

Yes you can use pipe glue. I made two station out of the PVC house trim and glued them together.









For the road bed joints i did not stag er mine, I used a six inch piece on the inside with two screws
on each side of the joint.


----------



## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Thanks for all the input.

From 2005-2008 I had a full time job working for a major Hotel and Conventional Center, my job was design, purchase, build and maintain the Garden railroad displays all year.


Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years being the major display time.


They would have 5-8 separate train displays operational during that time.

Well most of the was road bed I made myself and most was place above ground and the display added to cover the area.


Now all of this was inside in a constant environment and weather changes where not an issue.



I used a cedar roadbed using 2x4 or 2x6 by 8 foot lumber and ripped these on a band saw into 1/4 x 2 x 8 stripes and space blocks. the strips where glued together after bending with jigs and spacers added with 1 5/8 deck screws.


This worked very well but the most important item was not allowing the roadbed splices and the rail joint to be over each other. That created problems. I did stagger them up to 6" apart. 


Now hopefully soon after moving, the new raised garden railroad will start being designed and constructed, this time using recommendations for all of you. 


Really looking forward to more input. 


Never to old to learn new things.


----------



## LoxahatcheeRR (Apr 30, 2012)

What is the best way of attaching the PVC spacers to the lattice strips?


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By LoxahatcheeRR on 30 Apr 2012 06:30 PM 
What is the best way of attaching the PVC spacers to the lattice strips?


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I remember someone talked about using something like 1/2" PVC pipe in 20' sections to make ladder system. I think he used 3 somehow bundled together. Anyone remember that thread. The lattice stuff at home depot runs $1.14 a foot so 2 strips plus tax and your at $2.50 a foot just for the ladder material plus the track. Surely there has to be something more affordable.


----------



## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Here is the way I do mine 
I pound 2" PVC in the ground about 20" and 5 feet apart on the straightaways and 2 1/2 feet on the curves. I use cheap cedar fence boards and rip them 
to fit snugly inside the PVC so I can adjust the height. Once it is set I drill and screw it to the PVC. 








Then I start with a 1 X 6 cedar 12 foot long without any knots and rip it in half. Then I rip it on edge so I have 4 pieces that is about 2 3/4" wide and about 3/8" thick. 
For the cross pieces I again rip it in half but I don't worry about the knots so much. 
It is strong enough that all 200 pounds of me can walk up on it with very little sagging 
If I remember right, it cost me somewhere around 90 cents a foot to do it. 
Then I top it with 1 inch foam and paint it.











Rodney


----------



## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Rodney

Your roadbed is close to what I made. Difference is my spacers where 1.5"x 1.5" to have a better area for the screws secure the sides.

I like your 2" post with the cedar board inside and will look at this for my new Garden Railroad, my design was using 2 lengths of 2x4's sandwiched together and would slide them up and down to adjust the heights then secure them with deck screws. Had to use this over the white PVC as it was easier to hide the natural wood with plants in the atrium's.


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

I use PVC cement, the same stuff you use to glue PVC pipe together. I spread the glue on the ends of the spacer, put it between the two lattice strips, and clamp it tightly for several minutes until the glue sets. I use about a dozen clamps and keep rotating them as I progress along the latice splines so that each clamp is in place for about five minutes or so. You can just see the can of PVC cement at the lower right of this photo. The glue actually dissolves the PVC and when it evaporates the PVC parts are left welded together. In this shot, the clamps have already been removed from these spacers and the only clamps remaining in place are the ones temporarily holding the lattice strips on the stanchions.


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the same PVC board from Lowes and the 2" PVC pipe. What I do different is I cut the spacers from the board, instead of the pipe, and use screws to secure the spacers. I use screws because I believe they are stronger and they are a lot faster than waiting for glue to dry. I also use screws to secure the ladder to the pipe in the ground. You are going to have some shifting of the ladder; either vertical or horizontal. With glue you'll have to cut things to readjust the level, up-and-down and side-to-side, but screws can be moved quickly.


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By jimtyp on 01 May 2012 09:29 AM 
I use the same PVC board from Lowes and the 2" PVC pipe. What I do different is I cut the spacers from the board, instead of the pipe, and use screws to secure the spacers. I use screws because I believe they are stronger and they are a lot faster than waiting for glue to dry. I also use screws to secure the ladder to the pipe in the ground. You are going to have some shifting of the ladder; either vertical or horizontal. With glue you'll have to cut things to readjust the level, up-and-down and side-to-side, but screws can be moved quickly. 

This is the way I do it. Plus it is easier to relevel if you need to with the screws, and it is quicker. I drill with a bulb drill bit on the end of a drill down to 12 to 18" . Frost line is 48" , so going 24" isn't going to matter and I have yet to have any heave...course this winter has been very mild. I have more issue with the concrete settling.

Remember KISS, make it too hard and you will always have problems, this is not rocket science.

Bubba


----------

