# Bachmann F scale (1:20.3) Trains



## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

This catagory is for rants so I would like to throw mine in. A big thank you to Bachmann Trains for getting hobbyists interested in their Spectrum 1:20.3 scale line of locomotives and rolling stock and then, as It appears, just dumping the line is a really nice responsible way to treat your customers once you had their interest. The fact that just about all the models have sold out and the few remaining items are sought after and still bringing a good price would give some indication, I believe, that the scale is still active and flourishing. Accucraft (AMS) is still producing their 1:20.3 scale line and they have to deal with the same manufacturing conditions and costs. Even repair parts for the scale are becoming scarce and if you need anything not on the Bachmann site Bachmann'a reps are absolutely no help at all. I needed a part for one of my AMS models that was not in their catalog and they brought one from China for me at a very reasonable price, thank you Accucraft. So a big NO THANKS A LOT Bachmann for not putting the hobbyists and the hobby first and for dropping the ball on those of us who supported your 1:20.3 market. And have a nice day.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree, as a modeler in 1:20.3 myself, it's been frustrating to not see anything "new" come from Bachmann in recent years. Their C-19 was a home run, and I remain anxious to see what comes out next. They've got a re-engineered 2-6-0 hitting the market very soon (May/June was what I was told a few months ago). This isn't a "new" model, but it is--at least--updated. You can still find their 1:20 rolling stock on the shelves at the store. 

It's not just 1:20.3 that's been pushed to the back burner. The On30 guys have been left without anything "new" for some time as well (and are similarly restless.)

They're investing in their cash cows (HO and N). What we'll see in the future remains to be seen, but I don't get the impression that they're waiving the white flag of surrender on the other scales. 

I'm not sure a comparison between Bachmann and Accucraft is necessarily apples-to-apples. Accucraft does not do mass-produced locos. (Look at their 1:29 GP-60 which still has yet to get off the ground after countless years.) They do rolling stock, and have re-run some 1:20 cars recently to re-stock models which sold out a while back. But even there, we've not seen anything new from them in terms of rolling stock models in quite some time. 

It's definitely a slow time in the hobby, especially 1:20.3. I'd not go so far to say Bachmann has dropped the ball, though. They're sitting on it, certainly, but I would expect to see them put it back in play soon enough.

Later,

K


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

Meanwhile, AristoCraft is to be commended for their continued support of 1:29 scale.

Ohoh: I just remembered: AristoCraft is GONE, as in DEAD!

Guess we won't be seeing anything new from them . . . EVER.

Happy RRing,

Jerry


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

*Stock up Bachmann 1;20.3 now, while prices are good!*

I recently bought both *another 3-Truck Shay & long caboose at "fire-sale" prices*  because of the future uncertainty  of continued availability. My original 3-Truck Shay is one of my primary heavy freight locos, & I've already done considerable maintenance on it to keep it running (& it gets a *lot of running!).* The Spectrum long Rio Grande caboose (I bought the "undec" versions to letter them for my own road name) are real *museum-quality models  ;* they put most *brass* caboose models I've seen to shame, & are relatively rugged models (translation: detail parts don't fall off easily with normal handling). 

A couple of years ago, I spoke with one of the Bachmann reps at their booth at the Amherst Railway Society show about the lack of new 1:20.3 prototypes (as well as giving a few of my own suggestions for new models - I specifically suggested their doing the *popular On30 2-cylinder, 14-ton Shay in 1:20.3). * He made a couple of specific comments: 1.) *Large Scale was "dead"*  in terms of market demand (this was with the national economy still recovering from the "Great Recession"; & 2.) *The cost for tooling for new models in China was killing them. *  Considering what Aristo has gone through with their very popular 1:29th scale models over the last several years, I think lends credence to both those statements (& if anything, I think the *1:29th scale market segment is LARGER than 1:20.3).* Before anyone gets their "hackles" up  about that statement, let me add that's just my *personal observation, NOT opinion.*  I own *both 1:20.3 (Bachmann & Accucraft) & 1:29th (USA Trains & Aristo) rolling stock;* I run the 1:20.3 stock *a lot;* the 1;29th scale equipment, *very little.* To me, the narrow-guage prototypes meandering around my modest-size garden railroad at prototypical log-train speeds make the railroad seem larger than it actually *is.* Somehow, the USA Trains New Haven "Merchants Limited" streamliner (which with the fully-detailed & lighted aluminum coaches really impresses  visitors) *"chasing its tail" at a scale 80 MPH* around my mainline seems less realistic to me.  Just my 2 cents worth, YMMV (Your Milage May Vary!) 

 *Tom*


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

The Spectrum rolling stock is around, it just takes some hunting. Example--long after the 2-bay hoppers seemed to be non-existent, I went looking for four more. After coming up blank at a number of well-known shops, I called Trainworld, gave the number for the unlettered one and asked if any were in stock. "How many" she asked. "How many do you have?" "19" she replied. And that was just the unlettered ones.

Larry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

That kinda figures tho', Trainworld buys up discontinued lines cheap so they can sell at a discount.
Trainworld can't necessarily order more.... if you're going to want more, I'd suggest you not advertise and since you have, get them while you can.
Happy Rails,
John


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

I sppke with a Bachmann rep at the York PA show 2 years ago I asked if any new 1:20.3 models were being planned and he told me the same tale of increased Chinese mfg costs and a slow market for 1:20.3 models I can understand the mfg problem but as far as I can see the market for the scale is pretty good. As far as those elusive hoppers, I picked up 5 at the show that year and was lucky to get EBT units (I'm an East Coast narrow gague modeler) but since then nothing much at a decent price some sellers asking more than MSRP. I've also picked up several basket case Bachmann 1:20.3 locomotives for repair/rebuild which is another increasing problem with Bachmann disappearing spare parts, it seems like each month that passes more and more spare parts are sold out with no plan to restock. (Thank God for MLS.com and it's members, I've picked up some badly needed parts from some really nice people here.) I did ask the Bachmann rep then, how about making a 1:20.3 scale passenger coach or other rolling stock as a "kit" he again referred to the slow market, but I still think they would sell well if priced right. I know I would love a basic kit in 1:20.3 that I could add detail to. I've been modifying a Connie off and on over the past year (yea I know another Connie mod) but she's looking pretty good just have to finish painting the cab and reassemble her.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

jaug said:


> ...............I did ask the Bachmann rep then, how about making a 1:20.3 scale passenger coach or other rolling stock as a "kit" he again referred to the slow market, but I still think they would sell well if priced right. I know I would love a basic kit in 1:20.3 that I could add detail to. I've been modifying a Connie off and on over the past year (yea I know another Connie mod) but she's looking pretty good just have to finish painting the cab and reassemble her.


http://www.ozarkminiatures.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=24141

Check this coach out. I received an email from Ozark Miniatures about this kit and they were going to discount the pre-production price. A bit pricey, but way out of reach for the typical Bachmann customers. The discounted price (pre-production) is $349. Regular price $449. Kits are NOT necessarily cheaper.


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

I've seen the Ozark kits and yes they are a little pricey. I have 5 AMS J&S cars now 4 coaches and a combine and I picked them up for half the price of the Ozark cars, but I understand that the Ozark cars are somewhat limited production items and pricing would be higher. Bachman has offered G scale 1:22.5 kits for their J&S cars, caboose, and a few other freight cars that were reasonably priced, I think if they offered the same in F scale 1:20.3 the market would be there.


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## Ted Yarbrough (Jan 2, 2008)

Friends,
Would LOVE to see Bachmann or AMS produce RPO, Baggage, and Parlor/observation cars! Yes, I know there are a few Accucraft floating around on e-bay, but they are much more pricey than the plastic versions likely would be. Also, new run of the AMS boxcar with Flying Grande herald would be appreciated. Maybe even a new run of Bachmann Connies.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I've seen the Ozark kits and yes they are a little pricey.


Those are the old Hartford Products kits, and they are 'craftsman' style kits, not at all like the shake-well-and-glue-together Bachmann rolling stock.

If you want to look, there's a thread on the Bachmanntrains forum about what coaches we'd like them to make. Must be 2 or 3 years ago. Consensus was a duck-bill roof type would complement the AMS coaches.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Would LOVE to see Bachmann or AMS produce RPO, Baggage, and Parlor/observation cars


Ted,
G.A.L. makes a couple of styrene kits for a full baggage which is very easy to make. They also do a big-window end kit that would make a nice observation car from the standard one.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Iron Horse Engraving also offers 1:20 kits of EBT passenger cars. (They're also in the $400 - $500 range.) 

I think the biggest thing we're running into in 1:20.3 is really the same thing that plagues narrow gauge in all scales. There's no such thing as "generic" in narrow gauge. Each railroad had its unique identity. The D&RGW had their K-27s and high-sided gondolas. The EBT had their mikados and steel hopper. Both hauled large quantities of coal, but looked quite different doing so. If you're modeling a standard gauge line, most railroads ran the same locomotives (certainly once you got into the diesel age), and bought their rolling stock from large rolling stock producers. It all looked very similar except for the paint. 

The freelance narrow gauge modeler can pick and choose the locos he/she wants to run based solely on whether it appeals to them or not. Those who model more specific railroads have to wait it out until a manufacturer produces something that matches their chosen prototype. For some, that wait is longer than others. If I were an EBT modeler who couldn't or didn't want to do any scratchbuilding or customizing, I'd have a roster of 3 locomotives (at $3K a piece), a string of steel hoppers and a caboose. If I were a ET&WNC modeler, I'd have nothing commercially available. (We won't even get into the smaller lines like the Waynesburg & Washington.) 

Anyone wanting to model a prototype narrow gauge railroad with any fidelity is going to have to be pretty handy with a saw and paint. The upshot is that we're also going to be very particular about which models come closest to serving as an adequate base for the equipment run on our chosen prototype. What that means for manufacturers is that there's going to be a fair segment of their potential market that's going to not buy their product because it doesn't match the modelers' chosen prototype. (I love Bachmann's long caboose, but the EBT never had anything remotely close to that.) Likewise, D&RGW modelers aren't going to be clearing the store shelves of 2- and 3-bay EBT hoppers. 

I think, in some ways, that was the strength of Bachmann's "Connie." It's not "generic" in that it _is_ a model of a specific prototype, but it isn't a model of any iconic outside-frame 2-8-0, either. It's kind of a "blank canvas" locomotive that can be made to look as much like a "typical" Colorado narrow gauge locomotive as it can a loco more in line with eastern narrow gauge lines. Had it been a C-21 or C-25, I don't know that we'd be seeing the kind of customization done to it by modelers that we've seen over the years. The question is, how many more locos like that are there? The geared locos come close, and have been very good sellers with lots of customization over the years. The 4-4-0 was used on numerous narrow gauge lines as well, but few lasted into the 20s and 30s which is the more common period modeled. 

The question each of us has to ask ourselves is where we fall on that spectrum. Are we so dedicated to one specific prototype that nothing else that comes out is going to register on our radar screens? Or are we on the other end where we're building our roster just based on what works for our railroad's needs? (Or--like me--somewhere in the middle with rolling stock based on the prototype, but playing much more freelance with the motive power.) 

Regardless of where we are on that spectrum, the nature of narrow gauge railroads is that the trains are short and seldom pulled by multiple locomotives, so whatever comes out, we're probably going to be buying fewer of them for our lines than those who model 1:29. And so long as we're comparing the two pursuits, we can bemoan Bachmann for not having anything but repaints; Aristo has gone belly-up, and USA hasn't announced anything new in a long time, either. I think it's safe to say all the manufacturers are playing it safe when it comes to return on investments at the moment.

Later,

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted Yarbrough said:


> Friends,
> Would LOVE to see Bachmann or AMS produce RPO, Baggage, and Parlor/observation cars! Yes, I know there are a few Accucraft floating around on e-bay, but they are much more pricey than the plastic versions likely would be. Also, new run of the AMS boxcar with Flying Grande herald would be appreciated. Maybe even a new run of Bachmann Connies.


 Accucraft does a very nice 1:20.3 RPO/Baggage Combine in their AMS line. There used to be a company in the UK that was making replacement sides for them, but I think they've shut down. That doesn't mean you can't buy one of their coaches/combines, and scratchbuild new sides for them. I have seen at least one baggage made from two of the combines spliced together... You would really only need to cut the sides, and refit them into the car, not cut the entire car...

Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I've also always been kind of curious as to why Bachmann didn't do decorated versions of their 2 truck and 3 truck Shay's in Uintah, Ry. They're darn close. Of course, the Mallet would have been nice if it had been the Uintah/Sierra model...

Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, anybody for some F scale?

LOL!

Robert


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

just wanted to say, i HATE bachmann. i have ordered plenty of trains and parts from them, and most arrived BROKEN. tried calling the service department and all i got, after being put on hold 6 times, was some chinese person that did not understand english AT ALL!. she also had no idea what a "locomotive" was  oh well, will stick with other brnds


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

The GAL line offers replacement sides for AMS J&S cars to convert them into a EBT coach and several D&RG baggage, combine, and business cars. 
But on another note I take exception to and don't understand the comment about the Hartford passanger car kits being "out of reach" for Bachmann owners. I have 17 Bachmann Spectrum locomotives, K27s, Connies, Moguls, Shays, etc, of which half so far have been equipped with Soundtraxx or Phoenix sound, pulsed smoke units, and many dollars each in added brass details and waiting for the budget to convert all to DCC. I also have over 60 Spectrum and AMS pieces of rolling stock so to this comment I pose that because we who seek to stretch our modeling dollar should now have a stigmatism applied by some that we can't afford higher priced models, seems a little bit of a presumptive unfair comment I think, and a higher price does not always mean better. This is a hobby we all enjoy in our own way and within our own financial comfort that's the beauty of it that's why I love it


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I own 2 K-27's, a C19, 3 Tanks, a boxcar, and a caboose in Bachmann.

In AMS/Accucraft, I own a Davenport Diesel 50, a coach, a combine, two boxcars, four stock cars, a refer, four gons, a Conoco tank, a short caboose, a wheel and tie car, a flanger, a 6000 flat, and I'm building two tie and rail cars from AMS flats.

From Warrior Run, I have a 6500 flat I've built.

I have two Bachmann coach kits waiting to be bashed, and three Bachmann box car kits waiting to be bashed into two 4000 series MOW boxcars.

And, if you want to talk "expensive", I have two BLW drop-bottom gons.

It's taken me nearly a decade to accumulate it, all along with the track and an NCE DCC system, all of my locos have DCC and sound, mostly QSI.

It just takes time, and, in my case, a heck of a lot of wheelin' dealin' on eBay! Not to mention a very lucky outcome on a video poker game in a casino...

I also have two more AMS flats destined to become the idler cars for OP and OB - say no more there...

And a 34' stock car in the "works."

Robert


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## daveyb (Feb 28, 2009)

as far as i am aware rio grande models is alive and well i bought replacement sides around a year and a half ago,,,,, he is just too busy to do much modeling due to his business taking most of his time

but nearly everything on his site is available to be laser cut

and its a lot easier for us over this side of the atlantic to pop over to see him


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

*Bachmann re-issuing Spectrum Moguls*

Rec'vd my digital version of the latest GR yesterday, and lo & behold, Bachmann has a full-page color ad on the inside back cover extolling their new run of 1:20.3 Spectrum Moguls, "DCC ready" and most importantly, *Metal Gearing*.

That's the good news. Bad news - M.S,R.P. =$1250

'Odd manufacturer's perspective' news - Toward the bottom of the ad there's a box telling us to complete our railway with their "matching Jackson & Sharp passenger cars." This sent me to the Bachmann board, hoping to find a new line of 1:20.3 coaches. But no, apparently they mean the same 1:22 coaches they've been making since the original Big Hauler.

So they believe that they can move a new Mogul with a badly-needed mechanical upgrade for $1250, or at least the street price derived from that. But they think that a narrow-gauge hobbyist who might shell out that amt. of $$ isn't going to mind, or even notice, such a visually striking scale discrepancy???

Sigh.. go figger...


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

Sorry to spoil the most scale critical peoples' vision, But....the B'mann Spectrum Mogul, being a rather small prototype, is small enough to look rather good pulling a train of B'mann's 1:22.5 coaches. The only thing that could spoil the looks is if a person bothered to start trying to use 1:20.3 figures on the platforms of the cars. 
The new run of these locomotives, with the new gears, will probably hit the market place, at a street price of somewhere between $500-$700 dollars, slowly dropping off to the $399 level as sales sag, and places such as Trainworld grab up a few skids of them.
So don't go on with disparaging remarks about the scale differences. The average buyer, after seeing the passenger cars behind the locomotive, will find the overall view rather pleasing, especially if the whole train is converted to Kadee body mount couplers.
I have seen, close-up, what they look like together, and I get a bit critical at times.
Fred Mills


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## crashbig (Aug 29, 2008)

I think that the way forward in 1:20 is going to be scratch building, 3d printing and the smaller hobbiest run shops keeping us afloat. Big part of why I like running the larger scale is I can build my own stuff with regular wood working tools and with 3D printers getting cheaper and easier to figure out, printing our own replacement parts as things wear out, sure its easier to buy something off the shelf, but theres also a sense in pride and accomplishment in building something yourself even if its a simple outbuilding or flat car to get your feet wet.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> the B'mann Spectrum Mogul, being a rather small prototype, is small enough to look rather good pulling a train of B'mann's 1:22.5 coaches.


Fred, if they were 1:22 then I'd agree with you, but (like LGB) they are compressed and shortened to go around 4' diameter curves.

I personally like to see those small locos pulling scale 1:20 coaches, so they are thoroughly dwarfed !


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

The joy is in the eyes of the beholder.....to each his own. I still say, that for the "Average" LS purchaser, the model in question, looks fine with the LGB/B'mann passenger cars. But, like yourself, a small percentage of the more critical, scale modelers will find them not to their satisfaction. We should realize that the LS part of the Model Railroad hobby, is not growing, and not everyone cares to scratch-build, or even build kits, if available. The manufacturers will not invest in anything new. Should we drive people away from possibly purchasing something, although NOT perfect in scale, but looks rather good, by a fussiness by a few....I think not.

YES, by all means push for a more scale conscious approach to the hobby, but don't, please don't drive possible new purchasers away....we need them to try to give reason for a new wave of interest in new production.
Try to be more pro-active, and admit that a train made up of the new production locomotive (Upgraded at that) can look good to most people, heading a string of B'mann passenger cars.
Sure better to most modellers' eyes than some of the bloody starter sets that some are trying to push on the public, that are so far from any scale appreciation, that I would think they drive a lot from an interest the hobby.

There are several other Bachmann 1:20.3 locomotives that fair rather well with those passenger cars. The 4-4-0, and the latest 2-6-0, but I sure agree with you that a K27 or others look like **** heading them. But they are much larger prototypes and are much too large, to be mixed with 1:22.5 (Stretched or shrunk) rolling stock.

Fred Mills


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm usually definitely on the "scale purist" side of the equation, so by that measure, I should be mortified by the notion of running a 1:20.3 locomotive in front of a string of 1:22.5 passenger cars. However, this is definitely one instance where I don't really have much issue. The reality is that the colorful paint schemes on the 2-6-0 (and 4-4-0) have proven very popular with folks, and the vast majority of them just want some equally-colorful passenger cars to pull behind them. There's an aesthetic sense people have from looking at standard-gauge passenger trains where the locomotive is roughly the same overall size as the passenger cars they're pulling, and the 2-6-0 in front of the Bachmann cars fits this aesthetic. When you put the 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 in front of a string of true 1:20.3 passenger cars, the locomotive is dwarfed by them. Yes, it's 100% prototypical that it would be, but from the standard-gauge aesthetic perspective, it looks odd. 

Hey, if it sells locomotives and inspires Bachmann to produce a new 1:20 locomotive, I don't care if folks run them in front of Lionel coaches!

Later,

K


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## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

I have just repaired a 1:20.3 Bchmann Connie that I was given and I put it in from of my Jackson & Sharp passenger cars and I just did not like the look, I am usually not a scale perfectionist but this match just did not look right.
I agree that scratchbuilding is going to be the way of the future for 1:20.3.
I have decided to scratchbuild some boxcars for Connie to pull, using Garden Railways plans, I am looking for some Bachmann 1:20.3 Finescale 4' Archbar Freight Trucks (2/Card) and cannot find them anywhere. 
Bachmann have them as temporarily out of stock so I will now hunt around for something similar or else scratchbuild the trucks as well.
http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5357


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I purchased a K27 when it first came out. I love it; however the pilot truck broke in the first year. The Bachmann parts store has been sold out for 5 years. I told Jack Lynch that it was defective. They have NO parts so now it is a SHELF QUEEN.

I hate to tell you, but I think Bachmann large scale died with Lee Riley. He was the man who spent half his life in China, making sure they were true to the prototype.

Now the new thing is Speeders and Eggliners.

Good luck ...


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

......with production of "Eggliners" starting up again; I guess we should go back to what was tried when they first were presented to the market......Hatching a dozen or so, in time for next Easter......I'll have to see if I can find the incubator that was built especially for the task......it might work on the latest batch........without melting the windows....!!!!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Fr. Fred;

I believe that Richard has built a hen-shaped engine shed that "lays" an Eggliner.

Regards,
David Meashey


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, this is the henhouse that laid the golden egg-liner.

I can't seem to access my 1st class space ... so try this link. Photo at bottom of the web page. Then click on next web page, then 4th photo down.

http://www.mdlsrs.com/MarylandCentral2.html


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

I believe the consist of this train was derailed some where back down the line just after leaving the station.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Supposedly 1/20 demand is flat so Kader embargoed new product until it sold off. Kader also owns all of the tooling for Aristos 1/29 product. If the demand for 1/29 is stronger than 1/20, it won't be surprising if Kader switched horses in midstream. They are going to follow the money, that should be of no surprise to anyone here. I tend to also believe 1/20 died with Lee Riley. At the last show I was told that Bachmann was going to discontinue the Spectrum line entirely once the current stock is out of the pipeline, how much truth there is to this rumor remains to be seen. But the introduction of formerly Aristo products under the Bachmann header is not a good sign for 1/20.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

vsmith said:


> Supposedly 1/20 demand is flat .


perhaps..but how are they determining that demand is flat?
it could be:
"No one is buying 1/20.3 anymore, therefore we conclude the demand is flat"

but what if no one is buying 1/20.3 because there are no new products available! 
most 1/20.3 modelers probably already have all the models they want, and dont need to buy duplicates..
and when it comes to buying something new, people cant buy things that dont exist..
if new products came out, would demand increase? probably..

Scot


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## Tenwheeler (Mar 5, 2010)

This is a topic that concerns me as well. There has been a trend of diminishing suppliers of kits in recent years. A couple years ago, Bob Hartland decided to retire and sold the business to Ozark Miniatures. Last fall, Phil Dippel of Phil's Narrow Gauge decided to retire from the kit building business to spend more time with his own layout/projects. I can appreciate and commend both Bob and Phil for what they contributed. They certainly 'earned' the right (for lack of a better description) to retire.

My experience with Ozark Miniatures is they build a variety of kits that catch my interest on the front end, but there is room for improvement with the quality of the castings and the increased costs are not justified in my opinion.

Re Bachmann: I agree with the previous comments and would add the decision makers for Bachmann NEED to listen to the public's feedback. I suggested at the last NGRC in Denver, that they redo the Heisler. I heard the same comment from Bachmann about "soft market" in G scale. I told the rep "I would buy RIGHT NOW if there was one sitting on the table". I got a blank look and he walked away. In my opinion, that is a cope out at this point in time. The 'great recession' did happen in 2008 no doubt, but the public is trying to regain interest. Makes it difficult at best, to encourage new modelers to join the hobby right now.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> it could be:
> "No one is buying 1/20.3 anymore, therefore we conclude the demand is flat"
> 
> but what if no one is buying 1/20.3 because there are no new products available!
> most 1/20.3 modelers probably already have all the models they want, and dont need to buy duplicates..


Scot,
I would make the observation that Fn3 (1/20.3 3' narrow gauge) is also limited by the prototypes, or lack thereof. I have purchased or built most equipment that the EBT owns/owned - I've even been promised a 4-6-0 on Fn3. 

Other lines used the same/standard equipment; those Bachmann Baldwin 4-4-0 and 2-6-0s keep recycling in different colors, and Accucraft sells essentially the same pair in live steam. Compared with standard gauge, there isn't a ot of variety.

In 1/29th (or 1/32nd) on the other hand, you have dozens of different types of engines, coaches, freights, etc. 
And some railroads and their equipment are modern - the narrow gauges died and stopped buying equiment around WWII, leading to even more diversity, and thus more options for the buyers.


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