# Basic discussion on metric and inches



## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

First of all i want to say that i do NOT want to upbring a discussion of "what is better".
That is and never was my aim.


Second is that there may be a problem at mine to find the right words. I just have some school-english from long-long ago....but i think the discussion is worth it!


Thrid is i opended a new thread because we are not on drill bit nomenclatur any more....




Now, lets start.
I dont want to say that inches are not usable or that metric is THE better system. I know that there is a big factor (maybe the biggest??) about how people are used to a system.
What i mean is that for me, working with old 1/2 1/4....1/128 inches as well as with decimal inches and for sure with metric meassurements, the metric system is that which FITS to the mechanical problems the most.
NOT only because i´m used to it.


I think a "mm" is a very "fitting", "matching" length for the purposes we have to deal with in mechanical engineering. The inch is a bit to "big" makes fine meassurments more difficult to write down and to calculate with. When i say that the many "0" makes problems in the decimal inch-system, thats not just my opinion, its a fact. We do many works for US medicinal industries and they have LOTS of faults in their drawings, especially with tolerances.


What is clearly my own opinion and perhaps a question of sight, that the broken-inch system is a mess. When a length is to be 1-239/256 inches there is -in my eyes- the need of bringing this to system that fits the modern systems around the world.
Many years before, even metric user-societies used "hand-lengths" and "elbows". These systems were ok for the time used, but they died. So should do the mathematical broken inch-system, too.
When the told 1-239/256 inch gets to fit with a tolerance of ±1/512 inch, there -for me- "the fun gets a hole"!
This is a post-medieval system and has overcome.


An Example?
Just calculate how much will be the length of ...say 1-7/64 inches (model)  with a 1:87 scale in original. But in feet and inches, please! And in the head. And some kind of fast, please!
Let me guess: it is not usable!


the inch per se is just a length. Using inches or millimeters is  -therfore i agree- mainly a question of how we are used to. But please: just in decimal style. Even windows-computers use decimal systems for their users (what they use internal is regardless)....because even windows users are humans... 
.....ahmm....i hope not to have to open a Computersystems-thread...:-D (written by a millitant apple user.....)




Grettings 


and nothing for bad..just my thoughts!


Frank


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Frank

First of all, there is nothing wrong with your English, it is much better than any of my German (i.e. non-existent).









Next, I agree this isn't an argument about which is better or worse at all.

Lastly, you really didn't need to start a new topic (although it is OK that you did) we are used to a fair amount of thread drift.

The place where we diverge in the opinions expressed by each (i.e. you and I), is in the environment. In most of your examples you refer to the commercial/professional environment (i.e. engineering etc.) and I totally agree with you opinion, what I'm speaking of is within the individual's personal environment. And since children pick up a great deal of knowledge & habits from their parents, long before they ever enter a school house. that transfer forward of old systems will continue.









Even within the hobby arena, I really don't find it all that difficult to convert from inch fractional notation to decimal notation, without the aid of a calculator, I guess that I've been doing it for so long it just doesn't seem that difficult. Heck, a few days back one of my sons asked what my serial number was when I was in the U.S. Marines, now mind you I haven't even thought about that in well over 45+ years, yet without any hesitation it came rolling out of my mouth, as if I was fresh out of 'Boot camp.'







The other thing being is the degree of accuracy desired. For example I model in 1:20.32 (NMRA Fn3, 3-foot gauge on #1 gauge track (i.e. 45mm)). Yet I don't use the correct decimal value of 0.59" for 1 ft. instead I use 0.6" and a U.S. engineer scale (i.e. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, & 60 (U.S. in.)) and for me that's close enough.









No sir we don't need to worry about the computer internals (i.e. binary base methodologies)


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The Company I work for Makes Industrail printing presses in Japan. Everything thing is metric. All my tools are Metric. That is why I use the metric system. It is easier. 
With every new press we install I supply a Tape measure with metric increments on it. It makes life easier than the convertion tables some people have generated. 
The hard part is it is getting harder and harder to find metric tape measures.


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

Yes, your right.
I often feel that very experienced people have some feeling of taking the right thing, even though they have no tool to meassure or a pocket-calculator.
So i think fractional inch-systems work: people get deeply into it and are doing right, and noone arround knows why...


There are several examples of similar things: like cooking and baking.
There are people who may weigh the ingredients particle by particle of a recipe and the result doesnt taste well.
Others work with "a hand full" or "some of.." getting a delicious dish.
Its a miracle.....


So in mechanics, both professional and "on hobby", i better like the  reconstructable way. Means, all people involved should talk ONE language, use ONE standard. So its clear that the mm which was today a mm is the same tomorrow. And its the same regardless if Max, Tom, Jack or Fred used it.


And therefore i always have to fight  a bit with the inches, and -as told before- for sure of some big reason that i´m not deep enough into it. So i will never know why there are threads R1/2"-G1/2"-UNF1/2" and each one is from another diameter......and dont try to explain to me...LOL!!!


But i really think that a mm is a more capable length to use with mechanics. 
Breaking an inch in a smaller size would have helped.


But with the metric system, we have also a problem: each branch thinks to use its own standard, using the sizes they think to be ok. so there is somtimes a bit of confusion.
Maybe its usefull that carpenters use "cm" and mechanics "mm".
The problem is that metall work of the sketch from a carpenters hand often gives very fine and difficult parts. Or a mechanic ordering a "profile of 20x 20 wood" getting a big beam. 
but there are sizes noone really needs:
"dm" (dezimeter..100mm) "hektoliter" (100 liters) or "zentner". Zentner is an old weighing size and stands for 50kg. 


What i really find very difficult is when words are similar, but values different. So noone really knows how many sorts of "miles" are in the world. Or "pounds". Even in German we have Miles and Pounds, but the german mile is just for naval use and somekind of another lenght than the british mile and so on. There are Landmiles and Seamiles...and Spacemiles?...
I think the US pound is originally not 0,5 kg, because the addition exists: 3400 pounds of 2000pounds per ton.
Its kind of "historical grown" and would give a long way to bring it to a norm. Perhaps it is no good idea to bring all to a norm..Who knows?


Greetings




Frank


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

.....which brings us to another interresting situation. 

Why do "thirty inch" railroads in Europe and some colonies varry from 750mm (Saxony) to 760 (Austria-Hungary) up to 785mm (Pomerania) depending on where or what "mother country" built them? 










There was not a standard inch until the late 1950s.


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## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Gee that looks like our scale issue.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a feeble effort decades back to have the metric system used in the United States. It died for several reasons, not the least of which was the enormous cost of conversion of all the equipment used to make stuff (we had a lot more manufacturing jobs here back then)... lathes, milling machines, drill presses - in short, all the machinery used to manufacture goods, all of which were calibrated in inches and fractions thereof. 

There is also strong resistance to change, regardless of how beneficial such change may be in the long run. People here are used to inches, and aren't particularly into learning a whole new system. If you grew up with inches, pounds, gallons, etc. you have a "feel" for how much a certain quantity is. For good or ill, most don't want to throw that away, and are happy with the system already in place.


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

The problem with those who would like to force the metric system on us in the States: "Give them 2.54 cm and they'll take .91 meter!"


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the metric side of my little rulers a lot. Much easier to divide something into several equal sections using metrics. I never try to convert from one to the other. You don't have to know 30mm to know that half that would be 15mm.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Stan, that was the laugh that I needed for the day.







Now let me go get the paper towels to clean this mess I made from choking on my coffee.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

And then there's the sports announcer saying, "And he's down at 22.75 meters!" 

I speak either metric or "english" but generally prefer to stick to one or the other for a project.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Where I have found metrics to be king is when dealing with drawings, plans, etc. Then the math gets REALLY simple, unless it is an obvious easy to convert in standard units scale such as 1:12, 1:24, 1:48, etc.


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

And when it comes to accidents, a miss is as good as ah - - 1.6 Km.

But I always work with mm when laying out LGB track! Those small pieces come in millimeters!!


Art


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I tried suggesting to Aristo a few years ago: "Look, we all know what a meter is. Just specify the metric measurements instead of saying, 'about a foot.'" 

The negative response from other model railroaders was overwhelming.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With me, it's very much a "when in Rome" kind of thing. My two cars are metric, so I can work on them rather easily from that perspective. When traveling in Canada, I quickly get used to km and litres. If I'm driving a car with a selectable speedomoter (i.e, a button changes it from imperial to metric, rather than having both scales) it gets even easier. I don't know that one system is easier than the other. From my perspective, they're both just lines on a ruler. Rarely when I'm drilling holes, etc., do I use either imperial or metric sizes, instead using the numbered and lettered drills. 

Besides, there are 15mm to every foot, so I don't see what the trouble is. 


Later,


K


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

But not always so, in our time our family has owned a Chevette that was a mix of Metric and Standard, ditto with a couple 1960s Volvos. 

Math of KM-MPH got really easy really fast when we owned a grey market Citroen with a metric dashboard. What was really fun was watching how fast the "tenth" digit on the odometer went at speeds around 70 mph/110 kph....


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

In the early 80's a machinist told me "It's impossible to do precision work in the metric system." That seemed to be pretty odd as a micrometer is a very small unit.


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

atleast I have gotten better at some types of math " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

Try this on.
The prototype driver is 1250mm about 49.2" or 4'1-5/32" (I suspect though that the original is really 4'1")

that is 39,0625 mm in 1/32


hmmm, now to find a driver that fits the model...
Hmmm, everything available is in 10mm/foot Wohoo " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

So that equals... 1.25" right? no, I am not modelling in 10mm but I can use the wheels, but I will need a slightly larger one.
ok, for metrics I can use (1250*32)/30,4785 to get the size = 1312.4 wich is 51.669" or (roughly) 4' 3-1/2" wohooo, and slaters actually had a 10mm scale wheel for 4' 3-1/2" " align="absmiddle" border="0" />

But... dang, so much trouble to go between two types of calculating.
And I have no idea how I would have done it without metrics, or atleast decimal inches (the converter doesn't even take fractions).


then again, I do order the wheels once I have found the right one and done the math, as it's really too much hassle to do it twice " align="absmiddle" border="0" />




Edited for accuracy


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

10mm to the ft is 1/30.5 or so.


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 04/20/2009 11:46 AM
10mm to the ft is 1/30.5 or so.

Indeed, it's 1/30.478512648 (etc.) 
1/30 was for simplicity in the example


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

There's that desired level of accuracy thing poking its head up again. Wish they'd get that finite answer for Pi done already.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh. Somehow I read your post as 1:25, but that was how big your drivers needed to be. Must be Monday again.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

In Canada, we changed to metric many years ago officially. And while it did take some time for adults to become comfortable ordering their meat in kilos and talking temperature in C. it slowly took hold especially with the younger generation. 

But Canada is a country that lives by exporting products. Our biggest market is the USA and it is almost the only place that clings to the old system. For selling lumber to the USA we need to produce the sizes that Americans want to buy. Of course we export a load of lumber to the Far East especially Japan and China. They want theirs in metric sizes. Essentially we have had to become conversant in both systems to satisfy our customers.

Echoing what the others have said, it is not hard. I lived through the metric change here and have no desire at all to return to the imperial measures (where even an American gallon was smaller than a Canadian gallon). 

Regards ... Doug


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

coyote97 makes some good points about the metric system being easier than the fractional inch system for mechanics, but I think what he misses is that inch-based engineering in the US is done with fractional inches, it's done with decimal inches. At that point, there is no difference in the math. We can talk in "thousandths" (.001 inch) or "tenths" (.0001 inch) easily, as long as the context is understood that we're talking inches and not millimeters.

In my engineering work, I work in both systems of units, and can mentally translate as long as the number is in the range that I'm used to working with. I call myself "bi-unital".







Either system works for mechanics, but I have to say that SI is MUCH easier for doing system calculations that involve thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, etc. Almost the worst thing is to have mixed systems, exceeded only by "******* units" such as kilograms force.


Jim McKim


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

If we can put a man on the moon, and a black guy in the White House, we should be able to learn to measure by tens.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

hehe That's good.


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi Jim,


yes, i think it´s ok what u say. 
I have big problems to get together some "constructed" units like the one to calculate the brake-force in germany.
even though i had no problem to get into it, i never understood the way it was done:


one day, they decided a vehicle to have 100% braking force. regardless of numbers and sizes. just a "norm".
then, to make it "calculateable" for the railroaders, they defined it as: "braking weight"


a loco weighing 100 tons, equiped with a "100%"-brake gives a braking-weight of  100 to.


so they wrote down the brakin-weights of each car in each situation (different braking performance, time to brake...load..etc.) and u "just" have to add all (right) brakingweights and all real weights, "just" to devide the brakingweight with the realweight and you have a braking-force percentage....ummm...let me say from practicing: some kind of number that gives u a clue how your train MAY brake.


Another example is traction force! As we in germany have BOOKS of tables, which loco can take how much weight on what grade, YOU have formulas.
While our system is mostly empiric (and calculated with some security), the Traction-Force-Systems seems to be more accurate...aslong as u have all the facts and a poket calculator.




thats some of the things i look at like the fractured inches: historically grown, but overcome and difficult to replace in the heads...(and sometimes theres a lack of better systems....i confess!!)


so inches will rule the world for decades as kilogramms or tons will describe forces...LOL




Frank


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Well, since you brought up "tons", I'll give you an example in American units of a seemingly very strange use of the unit. Here, large air conditioning units are rated in "tons". It has nothing to do with how much they weigh. It is a measure of their cooling capacity. From Wikipedia: "In North America, a *standard ton of refrigeration* is 12,000 BTU/h (3517 W). This is approximately the power required to melt one short ton (2000 lb) of ice at 0 °C in 24 hours, thus representing the delivery of 1 ton of ice per day."
-Jim


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

LOL!
Yes!, Such things!
We´re better get used to it. 


And here´s a next issue:
We have here a the socalled "Berufsgenossenschaft" that looks after security at work and such things.


They work on the base of rules,and somtimes they got stuck in their own rules.


For loco-houses there is a min. width of the doors. so they decided that there should be 0,5m free room between the door and the train, so noone can get caught.
Now they are at court with some owner of loco-houses, because many doors were built at 45cm in the past.
The owner now say: 45cm ARE 0,5m.
The BG says "no, 0,5m are 50 cm!"


So they are fighting......


but the ice-example is really toooo good!


LOL


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

I use both metric and imperial fractions. 

Interesting point: 

It is impossible to always express perfectly a metric fraction. 
1/3 is exactly one third. 
.333 is not a third, It would have to recurse the 3 to infinity. 

A 'mentaly challenged' person one day, showed me on his calculator 10 divided by 3. 
He then multiplied the answer by 3. 
He said to me: The calculator is incorrect, it should say 10. 

He was perfectly correct. 
All metric calculators are incorrect. 
I will remember that person's entertaining insight forever. 

Andrew


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Paradise on 04/29/2009 6:09 AM
It is impossible to always express perfectly a metric fraction. 
1/3 is exactly one third. 
.333 is not a third, It would have to recurse the 3 to infinity. 

Andrew 



Then again metrics do not use fractions, so it's a moot point. (other than 'half a meter, 'half a centimeter', once it's beyond that it becomes 25cm and not 1/4 meter)

Metrics are easier to do calculations with as it's simply decimal (and based on ten).
I can live with having to use an M3.5 bolt instead of a M1/3


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I use both inches and metric..for different parts of a model building project.. 

When im making a drawing to work from, I use inches..because the prototype is measured in feet/inches.. 
For example, for my On2 forney project (converting a Bachmann On30 forney to On2) 
I have a drawing of the prototype I want to model..SR&RL #9. 
I use inches to convert the drawing to O scale, getting an exact-size O-scale drawing to work from, 
then I print out the drawing.. 

Once I have the drawing, I build the model using millimeters! 
completely ignoring inches/decimal measurements.. 
just because mm are, to me, much easier to work with.. 
I take measurements off the drawing, in mm, and use those measurements to make parts for the model. 
the smallest unit of measure I use is half a mm.. 

Scot


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

Here is a conversion calculator that I baked earlier. 

It has fractional inches, metric inches and metric.
Accuracy precision.
Scaling for modellers.

http://locobuilder.com/large_scale_calc.htm

(Let me know if something ain't correct)
Andrew


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Very very very nice 
The tests I have run so far are correct.


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

It is a gift for all you LS guys. 

Kind of like 'Free Tools' in these economic times. 
What else do you do when you fall off a ladder and have two bung feet ? GO METRIC !
Fair dinkum, I fractured and diislocated my tootsies building my mortise and tennon barn for my train obsessions.
I have made many calculators that all do different Large Scale stuff on crutches. LOL

I just haven't made them public yet. 

Andrew.


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

I particularly like the seamless translation from feet and inches to inches, I use that alot
And also from imperial to metrics.


Thank you very much, this is very welcome and useful


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Hagen on 04/29/2009 7:13 AM
I particularly like the seamless translation from feet and inches to inches, I use that alot
And also from imperial to metrics.


Thank you very much, this is very welcome and useful 



And very offline


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## Roland Seavey (Jan 4, 2008)

Sorry but I am old school,
I can't stand metric.
I will not change even tho I am now in a country that uses it.
It's a joke, you use what you want.
Next you all will want us to drive on the other side of the road (Japan, England, Ausi) no way.
JJ--- go to Home Depot or Lows they have Stanley tapes with m/foot combos have 3 over here
to deal with this mish mosh.
C and F for temps same, pain.
Elec. digital measuring equip is cool, punch button and you have either.
But don't force metric on me.
Now ask me how I really feel.
Roland


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Roland Seavey on 05/04/2009 8:26 PM

Now ask me how I really feel.
Roland



That sounds really obvious, so I woun't


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## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

I prefer to use SAE but having worked on several bridge construction project that had metric plansn it wasn't that bad. You don't have to convert vertical dimensions from decimal feet to inches. Don't have to divide by 27 to get cubic yards. I do not like using a metric grade rod
as the last digit will be read as either a 5 or 0. Reading elivations to 3 decimal places is a pain. Also 0.01 feet is more precise than 0.005 Meters.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well... since so many people find Metric so "foreign" and the basis for that system is outside of the human experience (how many people can really visualize the distance to the North Pole and then divide that into 1,000,000 sub units) and so many others have a problem with "feet and inches" having such an odd relationship (being 12 inches per foot) how about we start using something even more common to the human experience.

From now on it'll be "feet and toes"...

There are 5 toes per foot (unless you have some genetic aberration or have suffered from severe frostbite). So the relationship of how many sub units per major unit is easily remembered... or you can just take your shoes and socks off to actually see the number, something some of have to do anyway when the numbers we are working with exceeds the number of fingers we have. The only problem I can think of with this system is that 1st toe per foot is longer than the last toe (unless you are using the left foot, in which case the last toe is longer than the 1st toe) such that when you divide 1 foot in two you get 2 toes (and a lot of blood). Fractional toes are expressed in hang-nails. 

And just think... You'll never have worry about someone "walking off" with your measuring tools... not only that but, if you have any sort of fungal infection, you won't even have to worry about someone wanting to borrowing them!


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## coyote97 (Apr 5, 2009)

LOL!!!!


But im sorry to tell you it will be a "dead born child". Once we had a test of using a language "esperanto", a very artificial language that wanted to be the one language for the whole world.
Today, not many people are talking about it.
We must be very carfeul not to get methods like "nose-directions" or things....**grin


No, joke beside....perhaps its really ok to use different systems, for it seems not to be ok to take away a system people are used to.....aside from fractional inches......*cough..*cough .....




regards


Frank


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah! I remember Esperanto... to me, it sounded like Spanish carried to the extreme, spoken by someone that didn't speak Spanish at all.

I like your thinking about it being okay to use different systems because it is not okay to take them away. Well put... well, aside from that fractional comment!


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## MasonsDad (Feb 7, 2008)

I use Metrics often, I build Parts and Dump Bodies for the Huge Dump trucks or as some call the "Haul Trucks" anything from the Komatsu 100 ton to the huge 400 ton plus trucks, and for the most part we use the Metric system and i for one find it alot easier than inches especially in a high production shop like ours, although I was quite amazed to find that the tolerances we are subject to for something that big were very minute at best, but still over all I like using Metrics


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## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

Every time I read a thread about metric vs Imperial; which is easiest, etc, The thought that always comes to mind is: What's wrong with knowing both systems? Are people so stupid that they can't learn something new? My point is, it is a good thing to learn something new all the time. Learning keeps the little grey cells in motion. I try to learn something new every day. It doesn't have to be anything earth shattering. Even some small fact is enough to keep the thought process going. Most of what I know, I learned on my own, not in school. No, I don't think people are stupid. I think maybe they are just lazy. Please don't tell me "you don't have the time". We all make time to do anything we wish. Someone once said "Failure is not an option". Sorry for the ranting and raving.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I have decided that any metric Gauge 1 live steam plan I have will get scaled 1mm = 1/16" and be deemed 7/8" scale. Any 3.5" gauge metric plan will get scaled 1mm=1/32" and deemed 1:20.3


Seriously, I've done both, but find it difficult to wrap my brain around metric. Spend too much time thinking about it, checking and double checking. Besides, all my taps and dies are SAE, I have 3 lifetimes worth of SAE machine screws and metric materials are limited in the U.S. If you look at more recent plans coming out of the U.K., they mix. They even mix decimal and fraction sometimes. 


I am too old to change. I don't even have a cell phone, don't know how to work one. All the other electronic gizmo's are forbidden. Metric -- I hops my son gets it.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 27 Mar 2010 11:35 AM 
If you look at more recent plans coming out of the U.K., they mix. 


Yes, these are the people that gave us 16mm to the foot scale afterall....


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I use either with equal difficulty, and when I have to mix the 2, 25.4mm makes an Inch and Messers Hewlett and Packard take care of any other measurements I need to convert.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

My former job trained me to see the decimal inch, my high school shop teacher taut er forced me to learn the fractions of an inch down to 64's fore and backwards; 1/64, 1/32, 3/64, 1/16....., 
Woof... yawn... metric? Can use a ruler, but why isn't a millimeter one millionth?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 27 Mar 2010 03:47 PM 
My former job trained me to see the decimal inch, my high school shop teacher taut er forced me to learn the fractions of an inch down to 64's fore and backwards; 1/64, 1/32, 3/64, 1/16....., 
Woof... yawn... metric? Can use a ruler, but why isn't a millimeter one millionth? 
Milli - one thousandth, from Latin, mille, one thousand.

One thousand millimeters equals one meter..but you knew that, right?

I grew up with both systems, the NATO military uses mainly metric, except for the US Military [in my experience]. But - altidude always in feet, fuel always in pounds, speed always in knots...unless you want a heap of trouble.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah I know, but since I turned 60 last week I get to act the Old Dog....Woof....yawn 
In my day they taught Latin in high school... 

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Personally, I grew up with the 'feet/inches', but learned the metric system because of a desire to understand as a result I really don't have that much problem using either one.

As for the inevitable argument that always arises as to which is 'better' or 'easier' etc. etc., seems to me just a waste of time, they both work and accomplish the task. Learn and use both!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 27 Mar 2010 03:58 PM 
Posted By Totalwrecker on 27 Mar 2010 03:47 PM 
My former job trained me to see the decimal inch, my high school shop teacher taut er forced me to learn the fractions of an inch down to 64's fore and backwards; 1/64, 1/32, 3/64, 1/16....., 
Woof... yawn... metric? Can use a ruler, but why isn't a millimeter one millionth? 
Milli - one thousandth, from Latin, mille, one thousand.

One thousand millimeters equals one meter..but you knew that, right?

I grew up with both systems, the NATO military uses mainly metric, except for the US Military [in my experience]. But - altidude always in feet, fuel always in pounds, speed always in knots...unless you want a heap of trouble.

tac
www.ovgrs.org





Hi Terry: U.S. Army is metric (mainly, still have pounds), Air Force -- well, they've had trouble since they broke off from the Army.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

OK! Everybody bring your 10 pack of beer over here and we can talk about it. My 32/64 bit computer is having a hard time understanding this kilobyte as 1024 and megabytes and Gigabytes which really are not. My months have 28 or 29, 30 or 31 days. My week has 7 days. My clock has 12 hours showing. My year has 365+/- Get over it, we (USA) are the only ones who are consistantly inconsitent. WE CAN DEAL WITH IT! The rest are limited to 10 fingers or toes.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

On a good day I can muster 11......


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Richard Weatherby on 27 Mar 2010 10:34 PM 
OK! Everybody bring your 10 pack of beer over here and we can talk about it. My 32/64 bit computer is having a hard time understanding this kilobyte as 1024 and megabytes and Gigabytes which really are not. My months have 28 or 29, 30 or 31 days. My week has 7 days. My clock has 12 hours showing. My year has 365+/- Get over it, we (USA) are the only ones who are consistantly inconsitent. WE CAN DEAL WITH IT! The rest are limited to 10 fingers or toes. 

I have no problem with kilobytes, megabytes, etc. and all that math in base 2 makes fine sense to me... but I tried to explain it to my Dad one day and he was totally unable to grasp the concept of "Binary" or "Base-2 mathematics"... "the one's place, the two's place, the four's place, etc." and became frustrated with my attempts to explain it and we had to break off the conversation lest words lacking in kindness get exchanged. 

Then I realized that he was quite adept in "duodecimal" mathematics... you know, base 12. He could add, subtract, multiply and divide in base 12 quite easily. Ya see, he was a Carpenter and worked in feet and inches all the time. He could measure a bunch of places, and add them up to get the total feet and inches of boards required to fill those spaces. Or take a board of a certain length in feet and inches and know how many pieces of some other measurement could be obtained from it and how much scrap would remain, so he would know whether to buy three 6-ft boards or one 8-ft and one 10-ft board, to get the least scrap, and thus the least cost.

I approached him again and once I pointed out how he worked in base 12, the "light bulb" over his head came on and suddenly he could do all sorts of math in binary. Then we discussed base 16 and he could add, subtract, multiply and divide in Hexadecimal. He did have trouble remembering which letter of the alphabet represented the numerical values above 9 (A, B, C, D, E & F for the decimal values of 10 thru 15), but he was faster doing it in his head that I was using my HP Hexadecimal calculator, he just had to say the answer in sets of decimal numbers! 

Then he started doing math in base 7, and 13, and 5, and, well... absolutely any other number base! I had trouble verifying his answers with pencil and paper! Wish I had inherited more of his smarts!

As for metric vs imperial... I can do either, but I have trouble visualizing a length when someone says it in metric. When someone says a city is 50 Kilometers away, I have no idea "intuitively" how far that is... I have to work it out to miles by estimating that a Kilometer is "about .6 miles, so 50 Kilometers times .6 is about 30 miles" and on the Interstate that means the city is about a half hour away.

If someone says they want a bolt that is about 2 centimeters long, I have to stop and think that that is, gee, about 4/5's of an inch, oh, now I have some idea of what the size is and I figure they want something about three quarters of an inch long and I can rummage around in my old babyfood jars to see if I have a bolt that size.

I have the same problem visualizing metric volume... although I have a good idea what 2-liters is, since I have dealt with 2-liter bottles... but I am not very sure of what that relationship is to a gallon, since Cola and Milk bottles are not anywhere near the same shape, but I am guessing that pouring a 2-liter bottle into a gallon jug would not result in an overflow! Looking it up online I see that one could almost pour two 2-liter bottles into a gallon jug, but not quite.

It is all in what one is used to and familiar with.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

third world solution: 
as we import things from everywhere, we have to use both kinds of systems. 
instead of using two sets of wrenches, our mecanics use most often the adjustable so called "engeneer's wrenches". 

semper's discourse about feet and toes proves, that humankind must have sufferd evolution lately. humans must have had six fingers and/or toes to a foot or hand. 
at least in my youth in germany many things were bought and sold in dozens, "gros"(144) and "grossgros" or big "gros"(1728). but we used "shock" (five dozens) too... 
metric or imperial - what stayed in both cases, is the essential half dozen: beer comes in six-packs! 

i'll spare you a discourse into baker's dozens. 
even being mainly a decimal/metric guy, i would never try to divide a cake into decimal pieces. 
but that may be owed to my old fashioned school teachers half a century ago. - they made us learn fractions up to 32 by heart. 
that makes use of imperial measurements easy. 
for the difficult part of converting i use rulers, that show imperial and metric.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Just something for laughs. 

When the British were on pence and shillings, I had a friend that just could not understand why they couldn't switch to a system like ours (US). After all, 100 pennies to a dollar makes things so much easier. He also could not understand shy"they" were trying to shove that compplicated metric system down our throats. After all; 12 inches is a foot, 3 feet is a yard, 1760 yards is a mile etc. is much easier. 

I always laugh at people like this.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 27 Mar 2010 07:27 PM 
Hi Terry: U.S. Army is metric (mainly, still have pounds), Air Force -- well, they've had trouble since they broke off from the Army. 

Hmmmm, *I * know that, but the guys I used to go running with and marching with didn't. We never did a single metric march or run - they were ALL measured in miles. As for gasoline....well, ask ANY US serviceman how many liters his car/truck/armoured vehicle uses per hundred kilometers and see how far you get. Never heard a single US serviceman say, 'Hey, he's a real BIG guy, y'know, near two meters and 120 kilos - he can pump waaaaay over 150 kilos, too'......but then, we don't either. 


The UK is metric, yeah, right.

ALL road/rail signs are in miles/miles per hour and yards distance...there are NO metric distances here in the UK. Any non-American Johnny Foreigner who visits the UK just has to get on with it. No point in renaming anything, anyhow, Just as well, since it would all be ignored. Damned Frenchie invention, doncha know.









The only things that really matter that are measured in metric are our smaller model rail gauges - 9mm, 16.5mm, 32 and 45mm. And as has already been noted, even the scales are in mixed systems - n scale = 2mm/ft, 00 = 4mm/ft, 0 = 7mm/foot and Gauge 1? Well, depending on your preference - 3/8th inch/foot or 10mm. 

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 28 Mar 2010 06:20 AM 
third world solution: 
i'll spare you a discourse into baker's dozens. 
even being mainly a decimal/metric guy, i would never try to divide a cake into decimal pieces. 
but that may be owed to my old fashioned school teachers half a century ago. - they made us learn fractions up to 32 by heart. 
that makes use of imperial measurements easy. 
for the difficult part of converting i use rulers, that show imperial and metric. When we lived in NordRhein-Westphalen, we used to buy potatoes in 'pfund ' - German old pounds - and material/cloth measured in 'Zoll' - inches.

In any case, it's a whole lot easer to divide anything circular, like a cake or pizza, in to fourths and eighths than fives, or even sixes. Try cutting just THREE equal parts and see how far you get....

The 'Baker's Dozen' was a a way of ensuring that the loaves you bought were of the correct weight - if you bought twelve one pound loaves, then you got thirteen, to ensure that you actually ended up with at least twelve pounds of bread. The law on the sale of bread was rigourously enforced in the 'old days', bread veing such a basic staple food. Bakers who were crooks suffered appalling sentences for short-changing their customers.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

yeah, but when one wants to find out, how many double centner of flour one needs for a given amount of baker's dozens of bread, one needs more than one braincell....


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 28 Mar 2010 10:31 AM 
Posted By xo18thfa on 27 Mar 2010 07:27 PM 
Hi Terry: U.S. Army is metric (mainly, still have pounds), Air Force -- well, they've had trouble since they broke off from the Army. 

Hmmmm, *I * know that, but the guys I used to go running with and marching with didn't. We never did a single metric march or run - they were ALL measured in miles. As for gasoline....well, ask ANY US serviceman how many liters his car/truck/armoured vehicle uses per hundred kilometers and see how far you get. Never heard a single US serviceman say, 'Hey, he's a real BIG guy, y'know, near two meters and 120 kilos - he can pump waaaaay over 150 kilos, too'......but then, we don't either. 


The UK is metric, yeah, right.

ALL road/rail signs are in miles/miles per hour and yards distance...there are NO metric distances here in the UK. Any non-American Johnny Foreigner who visits the UK just has to get on with it. No point in renaming anything, anyhow, Just as well, since it would all be ignored. Damned Frenchie invention, doncha know.









The only things that really matter that are measured in metric are our smaller model rail gauges - 9mm, 16.5mm, 32 and 45mm. And as has already been noted, even the scales are in mixed systems - n scale = 2mm/ft, 00 = 4mm/ft, 0 = 7mm/foot and Gauge 1? Well, depending on your preference - 3/8th inch/foot or 10mm. 

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/

Hey Terry: You know, the more I recall, it was only us Field Artillery types that used any metric. Everything was meters. As far as driving a vehicle, no Army guys could even tell how many gallons per mile. They could tell how many gallons per hour in idle to keep the hydraulic pumps charged, that's at least half metric.

So, all the road signs in the U.K. are miles per hour? That answers why all the times I drove in the U.K. that folks were riding my bumper and getting mad. I thought they were km/hr


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 28 Mar 2010 03:11 PM 

So, all the road signs in the U.K. are miles per hour? That answers why all the times I drove in the U.K. that folks were riding my bumper and getting mad. I thought they were km/hr




Indeed something to remember, I was certain they where metric, guess I would have caught on after some time, but....
That brings up another funny thing that should be standardized... road signs.
In Italy I went happily along the motorway until suddenly there was a 60 sign... I had no idea why the speed limit should be 60, but I decelerated to 60 (km/h) and got promptly overtaken by atleast twenty cars going 120 (or more)...

Upon further study when we did come to the next sign there was a sign below that said (something like) "in case nebe" or some such, I realized it would have to be 'when visibility is limited'

Doh 
Nothing about it here either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Italy


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Hagen on 28 Mar 2010 03:30 PM 
Posted By xo18thfa on 28 Mar 2010 03:11 PM 

So, all the road signs in the U.K. are miles per hour? That answers why all the times I drove in the U.K. that folks were riding my bumper and getting mad. I thought they were km/hr




Indeed something to remember, I was certain they where metric, guess I would have caught on after some time, but....
That brings up another funny thing that should be standardized... road signs.
In Italy I went happily along the motorway until suddenly there was a 60 sign... I had no idea why the speed limit should be 60, but I decelerated to 60 (km/h) and got promptly overtaken by atleast twenty cars going 120 (or more)...

Upon further study when we did come to the next sign there was a sign below that said (something like) "in case nebe" or some such, I realized it would have to be 'when visibility is limited'

Doh 
Nothing about it here either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Italy 


I was riding in a car driven by an Italian colleague from NATO and he a ran a red light in downtown Brussels. Scared the living snot out of me. I asked him why he ran the light and he said is was not red enough.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

From the It Makes No Sense Dept.; I-19 from Nogales Mexico to Tucson (19 miles) is posted in K/m only. When they merge onto I-10 all signs are in MPH with no mention of K/M! Creates bottlenecks as the Mexicans slow down.... 

Instead of using that portion to educate them on MPH (dual numbers) they are left to figure it out. 
There's nothing more frustrating than being stuck behind a car doing 35 K/m in a 35 mph zone.... 

John


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 27 Mar 2010 11:15 PM 
On a good day I can muster 11...... 

But say you have a standard six pack of beer here in the US. If you convert to metric (double it and add 30) that would be 42 (metric) beers.

Good deal! (eh?)


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Is that 7 six packs? or is 42 metric? My current beer of choice comes in cubes of 30 as opposed to a case of 24. It is a better deal!!!! By the way 12 ounce cans.


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