# steam oil reservoir: how does it work?



## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

On my lumberjack the line from the oil tank is connected to the line coming from steam regulator and going to motors. I'm assuming the oil is "siphoned" from tank as steam rushes down tube. 
How is oil pulled from tank when there's no vent?

So confused.

Please explain to me.

Thx.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a pin hole in the steam line that allows a small amount of steam into the oiler where it condenses. The water then sinks to the bottom raising the level of the oil which is forced into the steam line to be carried to the valves and cylinders.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the classic Roscoe Displacement lubricator.

There is a good explanation at:

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/manual/lubricators.htm


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm finding that my run time is limited by steam oil. Per directions I've been filling oil up to the adjustment needle. If I filled it more, leaving just enough room to get cap on, would that be ok? Been running adjuster out 1/4 turn per directions. Is this good? Says can run less in "certain situations". How do you know if running enough oil? Better safe than sorry? Have Regner Lumberjack.
thx.
Marty


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

SW: (I don't know whether the shorten your name in a friendly manner to Skeeter or Weazel! so I'll stick with SW for now ) ...

Anyway, you are using enough oil when you can just barely tell that there is some oil around the stack. If you are getting oil spots all over the engine and track (and your best Sunday go-to-meeting white shirt) then you are using too much. If you run for about an hour and end up with little or no water in the oil reservoir then you are probably not using enough.

You are better off to err on the "too much" side of things, but there is no reason to keep BP stock values up that high all on your own.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Skeeterweazel said:


> I'm finding that my run time is limited by steam oil. Per directions I've been filling oil up to the adjustment needle. If I filled it more, leaving just enough room to get cap on, would that be ok? Been running adjuster out 1/4 turn per directions. Is this good? Says can run less in "certain situations". How do you know if running enough oil? Better safe than sorry? Have Regner Lumberjack.
> thx.
> Marty


Marty,
If you fill it higher than the steam line, then more of it will rush down the steam pipe and be thrown out of the stack.

We usually set the 'adjuster' and leave it. (I assume this is the needle valve the governs how much oil gets out into the steam?)
If you don't know the best setting, then I'm not the guy to inform. As SV points out, if you are seeing lots being thrown out, you are using too much - turn it 1/4 turn inwards and see what happens next time. If there's no water condensed, then you aren't using any oil, which is a problem.

Yes - better safe than sorry.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

From the *Informative Threads Index* (sticky topic near the top of the *Live Steam Forum*)...

*Dead Leg vs. Passthrough Lubricators*


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Thx guys. Will clean my stack and try to get a feel for what is a good amount of oil inside.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

One thing I would add to this thread from the perspective of a new guy . . .

Keep in mind that a Roscoe oiler does not lubricate anything when running the loco on air. For oil to flow out of a Roscoe oiler, steam needs to enter and condense and force the oil out to the cylinders.

So if one intends to run a loco on air for even a short time, one needs to realize that, unless lubrication is provided by some other means, one is running everything "dry," and that is not a good thing to do.

Cheers,

Joe


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I found the Lumberjack uses up a lot of oil even when the needle is turned less then 1/4 but I don't worry about it. I would rather too much oil then not enough. After 40 minutes of run I have very little oil left in the reservoir. My Forney is the same. I have to refill oil after every run. On that one I have no way to adjust the flow.

If you can find this book for a good price I would recommend it. Ebay usually has it for a much better price.
http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Steam...&qid=1402318840&sr=8-5&keywords=Marc+Horovitz


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> One thing I would add to this thread from the perspective of a new guy . . .
> 
> Keep in mind that a Roscoe oiler does not lubricate anything when running the loco on air. For oil to flow out of a Roscoe oiler, steam needs to enter and condense and force the oil out to the cylinders.
> 
> ...


Joe,
Whilst I totally agree with what you say, and also I am not familiar with the Lumberjack locomotive, I think that you also have to look at WHY we need the oil.
From what I understand, it is there to make sure that the valve, be it a 'D' valve or a piston valve, and the pistons in the cylinders can slide nicely back and forth with less friction.
Metal on metal of slide valves needs something, and wet steam in itself will do a good job.
In the cylinder, it will depend on what seal is being used on the piston.
With a teflon seal, again steam will do a good job, and I have seen locomotives built without a lubricator with this type of seal.
The graphited yarn again needs very little oil to slide nicely but still make a good seal.
It is "O" rings that seen to require the lubrication most as they can just plain get sticky.
At least, that's what I have gathered over the years.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam is a great way to REMOVE oil from surfaces, so when running the engine on steam, the oil has to be constantly replenished. Thus the "oiler" putting the oil IN the steam itself to get it to the moving parts.

But, when running on air, a wee bit of oil on the parts will last a long, long time, because compressed air does not wash the oil off. Just put a drop of steam cylinder oil (or any oil, actually) in the steam line and let it blow into the cylinders and all is good for hours of running. If the engine was assembled properly, then there should be some oil in the steam chests and cylinders already.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

David Leech said:


> Joe,
> Whilst I totally agree with what you say, and also I am not familiar with the Lumberjack locomotive, I think that you also have to look at WHY we need the oil.
> 
> From what I understand, it is there to make sure that the valve, be it a 'D' valve or a piston valve, and the pistons in the cylinders can slide nicely back and forth with less friction. Metal on metal of slide valves needs something, and wet steam in itself will do a good job. In the cylinder, it will depend on what seal is being used on the piston. With a teflon seal, again steam will do a good job, and I have seen locomotives built without a lubricator with this type of seal.
> ...


David, respectfully, I question the wisdom of being dismissive concerning the need to use steam oil in lubricating the internals of a steam engine while operating under steam and I believe, based mostly upon quite a bit of reading, that the proper blend and viscosity of steam oil is required and not merely to lubricate O-rings.

Here is passage from the Wiki that applies to full-size locomotives:



> The pistons and valves on the earliest locomotives were lubricated by the enginemen dropping a lump of tallow down the blast pipe.[27]
> As speeds and distances increased, mechanisms were developed that injected thick mineral oil into the steam supply. The first, a displacement lubricator, mounted in the cab, uses a controlled stream of steam condensing into a sealed container of oil. Water from the condensed steam displaces the oil into pipes. The apparatus is usually fitted with sight-glasses to confirm the rate of supply. A later method uses a mechanical pump worked from one of the crossheads. In both cases, the supply of oil is proportional to the speed of the locomotive.


 Taken from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotive#Lubrication

OK, so maybe some of us are not "buying" the notion that what is good for a full-sized locomotive is appropriate - or necessary - for a model that may employ Teflon or Rulon rings.

Roundhouse expresses its opinion here:

http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/faqs.htm#14

It's a bit too much verbiage to reprint, but it is worth a read. Suffice to say that they not only recommend steam oil rather strongly, but they go on to discuss proper selection of viscosity.

And this from the Southern Steam Train Website:

*The Truth About Steam Oil* by Henry Wade:

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/misc/steam-oil-hwade.htm



> My participation in live steam began in the mid-1960s in large scale and over the years when trackside talk turned to locomotive lubrication I began to hear claims for all sorts of substitutes for steam oil, everything from crankcase oil to chain saw bar oil, and all of these were usually accompanied by declarations of "Aww, it's the same stuff". Some folks claimed to have success, or rather no adverse affects, with things such as transmission fluid or hypoid gear oil, claiming as usual "it's the same stuff". *In addition, outlandish as it might seem, there was the occasional nut-case who for whatever reason advocated using NO lubricant at all in a locomotive, *which I thought was just plain contrariness and foolishness.


 Well, if the counter to the above-referenced argument, one that is further developed beyond the introduction to the article, is something like:

"My good fellow, I've been steaming model locomotives for 40 years without using any oil whatsoever and I have never had a failure." 

All I would say is that you've been incredibly lucky then, and out of politeness, I'd say no more.

Please do not take this post personally, David, I am sure Mr. Wade was not thinking about you when he made his pronouncements about Steam Oil - and I suppose he could be wrong, after all?

I'd prefer to err on the side of not omitting the use of steam oil myself. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

On the subject of graphic impregnated yarn or string, I would say that it may well be better to use for packing glands than O-rings which are a bit sticky.,

What I have found, working with Stuart stationary and marine engines, is that, as it wears in, graphite yarn hardens "like a rock" and seems to exhibit some of the properties of Oilite bronze bushings. Not bad overall.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Semper Vaporo said:


> Steam is a great way to REMOVE oil from surfaces, so when running the engine on steam, the oil has to be constantly replenished. Thus the "oiler" putting the oil IN the steam itself to get it to the moving parts.
> 
> But, when running on air, a wee bit of oil on the parts will last a long, long time, because compressed air does not wash the oil off. Just put a drop of steam cylinder oil (or any oil, actually) in the steam line and let it blow into the cylinders and all is good for hours of running. If the engine was assembled properly, then there should be some oil in the steam chests and cylinders already.


I hope I am not seen as looking to be disagreeable, but I find myself in _partial_ disagreement with the above post as well.

When we "steam clean" an engine or any other metallic appliance that may be greasy or oily, yes, we use steam and indeed it is good at removing oil.

This is the part I am having trouble with:



> Just put a drop of steam cylinder oil (or any oil, actually) in the steam line and let it blow into the cylinders and all is good for hours of running.


 What I would say would be something like this, or actually this:

*Just put a few drops of light or medium viscosity machine oil in the steam line and let it blow into the cylinders and all is good for up to several minutes, but don't overdo it.*

As I had neared the completion of my Castle build, Hans of Aster cautioned me against running on air for more than a couple of minutes, if that. While Hans is a mechanical engineer by trade and training, my own experience and common sense resulted in my thinking being simpatico with his advice.

Yes, in the building process we lubricate everything including the rings and cylinders, O-rings, etc. But air dries out and pushes out oil pretty easily.

Why take such chances running on air with little lubrication?

Proper oiling is nothing in cost and effort when placed against the investment in the model locomotive itself.


Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*Steam oil: with or without*

Joe
We had a long discussion and in fact that Diamondhead International Steamup there was a lecture on a manufactured locomotive that did not nor does it still need steam oil to function(the thesis was that water was for adequate lubrication):
'My good fellow, I've been steaming model locomotives for 40 years without using any oil whatsoever and I have never had a failure." 
The maker and model slips my mind (as do many things) but it has been running much longer than 40 years. It is a simpler steam locomotive certainly does not have the requirement of the "big" locomotives of today.
I personally note that it is easy to tell when a steam locomotive reservoir needs another dose of oil....performance is lacking.
I do not think it is a good idea to run a locomotive on air for a long period of time even with a "drop of steam oil.
The bottom line (IMHO) run with steam and steam oil and the locomotive will outlast the owner!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Stacktalk: not disagreeable at all. Very valid point about the cost of a bit of oil compared to the investment in the machinery. 

My use the term "hours" is probably an overstatement. I based it on running a small wobbler engine on compressed air for several hours and only oiling it once at the beginning with 3-in-1 brand (10 weight) oil. After running that long, the cylinder walls, the port faces and the piston itself were still quite oily. But, now that I think about it, it was very low pressure and slow operation so as to not really blow much of anything around.

I have also run another twin cylinder engine (much more refined engineering device) and it took much higher pressure to get it to operate at all when I was running it on my kitchen counter and there was a considerable amount of oil on the side of my refrigerator where the exhaust was aimed and a lot less left in the engine itself even after just a few minutes.

I really just wanted to point out that you should not flood the thing with oil... let the gas (steam or air) perform the work, after all, it is not a Hydraulic engine! ;-)


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Charles said:


> Joe
> We had a long discussion and in fact that Diamondhead International Steamup there was a lecture on a manufactured locomotive that did not nor does it still need steam oil to function(the thesis was that water was for adequate lubrication):
> 
> 'My good fellow, I've been steaming model locomotives for 40 years without using any oil whatsoever and I have never had a failure."
> ...


 So we are basically on the same page - except for the one engine? 

Maybe. 

Interesting old thread here from the Home Machinist:

http://chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90392&sid=b7b14ecdcbf38bfe0383abeb5bb1b22c

Harry Wade appears to participate in the discussion on the second page.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> David, respectfully, I question the wisdom of being dismissive concerning the need to use steam oil in lubricating the internals of a steam engine while operating under steam and I believe, based mostly upon quite a bit of reading, that the proper blend and viscosity of steam oil is required and not merely to lubricate O-rings.
> 
> 
> I'd prefer to err on the side of not omitting the use of steam oil myself.
> ...


Joe,
I want to make it clear that I would never run a locomotive WITHOUT steam oil lubrication, unless it was designed that way.
I was just trying to explain why it is that we do need something to keep things running smoothly.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> On the subject of graphic impregnated yarn or string, I would say that it may well be better to use for packing glands than O-rings which are a bit sticky.,
> 
> What I have found, working with Stuart stationary and marine engines, is that, as it wears in, graphite yarn hardens "like a rock" and seems to exhibit some of the properties of Oilite bronze bushings. Not bad overall.
> 
> ...


Good to know Joe.
I can't say that I have ever opened up any of my yarn wound pistons to see what they look like.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a Merlin that had no real lubricator. Teflon piston rings and valves and the loco just ticked over at a few pounds of air or steam.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> I had a Merlin that had no real lubricator. Teflon piston rings and valves and the loco just ticked over at a few pounds of air or steam.


Jason;
Isn't PTFE (Teflon) considered self lubricating ?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

What about the metal on metal contact going on in the steam chest?

It just seems silly to me to argue (or simply imply) that steam engines really don't need lubrication beyond the steam and condensate.

To each his own, as they say.

Given the amount of times each model is run over the course of many years (some of us never or seldom run them,) the damage would not be catastrophic in any case. 

I just come back to some fundamentals:

Lubricators have been provided for a reason.
Steam oil is cheap in the overall scheme of things.
A little dish washing liquid (for clean-up) goes a long way.

Cheers,

Joe


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

As an aside, the engine washing machines the railroads used(D & M, etc.), used a mixture of hot water and oil atomized into the water (as a surfactant, i,e. detergent before modern detergents were invented) to clean steam locomotives at wash racks, etc.


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Ran for 20 mins today. Used about 3ml of oil. Maybe 1/2 of that would be a good amount? Could see some stuck on inside of stack at times, and it accumulates on top of cylinders.
Thx.
Marty


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