# 10 years of 4-4-0s at Accucraft.



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps, 
Thought you might like to see some size/comparision photos between the three 4-4-0 models that Accucraft brought on in the last 10 years. 
To the front is the nom. 1:24 scale model from 1997 or so, which marked Accucraft's entry into largescale brass manufacture. The same 4-4-0s were released in Live steam under the Legend name, as you've seen in this forum. The models were nicely proportioned, but boiler sat a little high for some reason. I also suspect the models were closer to 1:22 scale, rather than 1:24. This particular model came to me in about 100 separate pieces, which I assembled earlier in the year and painted up as Baldwin Black, style 9, similar scheme as used by the Pennsylvania RR between 1869 and 1881, and was used on the 42" gauge Baldwin 4-4-0s here in Auz. 
The 2nd engine in the photo is the CP #173. Around 2003, Carolwood Historical Society ordered a limited run of the Walt Disney's Carolwood Pacific #173 4-4-0 in 1:24 scale from Accucraft. (actually 1:24 of the Andrew Stevens Central Pacific #173 which Walt's engine was based on). Only 173 models were made. The same model was going to be released as a Live steam offering, which Michael Campbell at Carolwood had worked toward for sometime. Sadly this wasn't to be, but instead Accucraft chose to model a 1:20.3 narrow gauge 4-4-0, and painted it up as CP #173 to fullfill the Carolwood desires. The current 1:20.3 4-4-0 offerings have come about as a result of the Carolwood effort, and in particular Michael Campbell. 
Finally the 3rd model is the recently released 1:20.3 4-4-0 in original Baldwin colours following the Carolwood versions released earlier in the year. 
Kinda makes me smile, I like the choice of prototype for the new 20.3 version, but a couple of years ago much was said about the CP #173 being 'too small' in 1:24 scale to be made a successful live steam model in the eyes of the 1:20.3 crowd. Despite that, the 1:24 CP #173 is still phyisically the largest model of the three 4-4-0s because the standard gauge prototype was not a small loco, and even at 1:24 is larger than the narrow gauge 4-4-0 at 20.3! 
Enjoy the photos. 
David.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 

Thank you for the pictures and the history. In addition to Michael Campbell and his great work on the 4-4-0s, I think you deserve a lot of credit for guiding Accucraft. 

I can't wait to see mine, but am sure I'll get to see several later this week at the NSS in Sacto. 

Best regards, 

Alan


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## jrobnett (May 17, 2008)

David, your comment about "CP #173 being 'too small' in 1:24 scale to be made a successful live steam model" caught my eye. A question that's been bouncing around in my head for some time is whether it would be possible to make a _functional_ 1:32 scale live steam 4-4-0. 

I know a _functioning_ one could be built (HO scale live steam has been done) but that's not the same as _functional_. I'm becoming convinced that the boiler volume (vary by cube), cyclinder diameter/stroke (by square/linear) etc would rule in 'functioning' but rule out 'functional'. 

Without actually having them side by side it's hard for me to envision the operational problems with a 1:32 vs 1:20.3 4-4-0 but from what's been posted folks love the 1:20.3 so far. 

Do you have any opinions whether it's plausible from a scaling perspective (not a vendor one, I know they won't). 

James Robnett 
ps: By _functional_ I'd assume a feed water system with run times in the 20+ minute range with periodic attention to whatever fuel system, ie coal, butane etc. With semi-continuous attention remaining 'under pressure' for 40-60 minutes. I picked those out of a hat but wanted to differentiate from 'can make steam and move'.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

James, 
A 1:32 or 1:24 4-4-0 is most certainly possible in live steam, look at the Legend 4-4-0s in 1:24 (same size as the 4-4-0 in the front of the photos above). The issue was that people didn't want a 1:24 4-4-0 due to the scale being 'too small' - they didn't want the engine to be dwarfed by rolling stock or other locomotives. While in reality, the 1:24 CP #173 4-4-0 is around the same size of the current 1:20.3 offering anyway (actually longer). 

The Narrow Gauge Baldwin choice however is none the less more versatile and ran on far more roads. Its the best choice of prototype. 

David.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I await the INYO..... 

http://www.nsrm-friends.org/inyo22.html 

Hopefully by then all the "bugs" have been eliminated. 

Dave- I believe 4-4-0 on standard gauge was utilized by most of the major railroads. Such as the NYC Empire Express, PRR D16b if one thinks outside the "American" style loco many "modern" 4-4-0 would be of interest for standard gauge.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes indeed Charles, I agree a 1:32 model of any of these would be great. my comment was that the CP #173 Andew Stevens design, originaly intended as the Live steam offering was not as versatile as a prototype as the Narrow Gauge Baldwin they ultimately chose. Even these Narrow gauge ones were not as numerous as their standard gauge counterparts! I believe only around 12 locomotives of that CP designed 4-4-0 were built, 2 of them ran on the V&T. 

The Columbus and Dayton of the V&T were both very similar to the CP #173 - Dayton survives today. This would be a pretty cool offering, even in 1:24 as a repaint from the CP #173 model in live steam, but I would still prefer it to be 1:32. 
Thanks Charles, 
David.


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## turbohvn (Jan 7, 2008)

If anyone is interested, I have Accucraft Legends, the original 4-4-0 live steamer, in stock, new in the box. I have both the D&RG and Pacific Coast versions in stock. 

Call any evening 

Royce 
703-799-9643


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Posted By David Fletcher on 13 Jul 2008 03:02 PM 

The issue was that people didn't want a 1:24 4-4-0 due to the scale being 'too small' - they didn't want the engine to be dwarfed by rolling stock or other locomotives.


Interesting. When I see the prototype in comparison to rolling stock and other locomotives, it seems smaller is better when it comes to the 4-4-0. Photos of Eureka and Palisade #4 courtesy Nathan Holmes:


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure looks like the E&P is built out of scale!


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi David: 

Any chance of Accucraft producing live steam and electric 1:24 scale models of the V&T Dayton & Columbus using their previous tooling of the 1:24 scale CP 173 ? 

Thank you 
Norman


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By norman on 18 Apr 2010 08:47 PM 
Hi David: 

Any chance of Accucraft producing live steam and electric 1:24 scale models of the V&T Dayton & Columbus using their previous tooling of the 1:24 scale CP 173 ? 

Thank you 
Norman 

Norman
Similar to the Leviathan, the V&T engines: Inyo, Reno, Dayton, Genoa and so on need to be produced in 1:32 scale


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## Jim Schulz (Aug 10, 2009)

Here's the Legend compared to the Bachmann 1:20.3 4-4-0 and 1:22.5 Jackson and Sharp coach:


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice Jim, very nice indeed! 

Norman, sadly Michael tried to get the Lilly Belle into Live Steam for Carolwood, and there was a big fuss, even on this site, about the 1:24 scale of the original CP 173 model not being 'the right scale'. The conclusion of the issue was the Accucraft live steam NG 4-4-0, Grass Valley, Col. Boone, etc, and a version built with Lilly Belle colours. I discussed this with Cliff as well, and Charles is right, if they ever go down that route, the models should be 1:32, including any live steam version of the V&T Dayton etc. At this stage they dont see much future in that, as the 1:32 locos would be very small locos (I have no problem with their size!). Still I think give it some years and the opportunity may come up...the option to develop the V&T fleet in live steam is just too good to ignore. 

Here's my version of the V&T 1873 'Dayton': 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-20.jpg 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-33.jpg 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davidfletcher/Dayton-28.jpg 

David.


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi David:

Your 1:24 V&T Dayton is great.

I think Accucraft should have just built the 1:24 Lilly Belle and V&T Dayton as that would have saved development costs. These would have sold well once people realised that their physical size wasn't as small as people thought they would be. The slight gauge error of the 1:24 Lilly Belle yields a more accurate Lilly Belle than a 1:20.3 narrow gauge Baldwin. However, the bottom line is it is not my personal capital to risk so Accucraft must do as they think best. 

It is just really disappointing to not have had the live steam 1:24 Lilly Belle and V&T Dayton.

Norman


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