# Would you buy an Accucraft Live Steam WSLCo #15 Shay



## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Accucraft made the #15 as an electric version but has never made the live steam version. Would you be interested in the a live steam version of this model?

http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=55


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

YES, YES, YES, one time for each of these WSL #'s: 15, 10 and 12. The #12 is perhaps my personal favourite (and also the favourite # of someone at Accucraft) So Accucraft will make all three given infinite Accucraft time;-)... Zubi


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no problem with #12 as I have ridden in the cab of it! Aw heck, while we're at it let's just have #8 and #14 added as well!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

8+10+12+14+15=5 ;-) times $5000 is about one Allegheny RTR, isn't it? Best, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 06 Jul 2010 07:02 AM 
8+10+12+14+15=5 ;-) times $5000 is about one Allegheny RTR, isn't it? Best, Zubi 
Zubi:

I'm not sure of the math. $5000 is the price estimate, in previous threads, for Accucraft's live steam WSLCO #15 3-Truck Shay and the five you listed would adds up to ~$25K. Staying on that same tack, an Accucraft Allegheny would sell for considerably less than $25K, closer to $8-10K (re: price of Accucraft's Cab Forward.)


Now if your speaking of Aster Shays, not knowing the price of the original WM 3-Truck Shay but taking a SWAG, $8-10K+ ? That makes five in the range of $40-50K. An Allegheny from Aster sold in the range of $20K(?), wouldn't a remake be about the same ? 


Those seem like apples to apples comparisons; an Allegheny less than five Shays in either case.


But if you mean five Accucraft Shays compared to an Aster Allegheny your math is certainly correct, although that seems like the proverbial apples to oranges comparison wouldn't you agree?


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

I absolutely would buy one. For that matter, I would buy any and all of the roadnumbers they choose to make

#5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, or 15! If they made them all, i'd buy em all 


PLLLEEEAASSSEEEE ACCUCRAFT!!!!!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Anthony, 
I hope that you have lots of money because the Accucraft people might be watching and reckon that they are guaranteed 9 sales already!!! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

In reality I wouldn't be able to buy all of those... can't afford it!

Cliff had once mentioned to me that they had intended to make all the 3-truck WLSCo shays in live steam (or at least more than just #15), but never continued with the project because of electric #15's lack of sales.

Still keeping my fingers crossed...


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

That I fear could be Accucraft's downfall. 
They have and are producing so much in all different directions, but then complain that they are not selling enough. 
Aster have carefully paced themselves over the years to make sure that customers are ready to buy their next model and most (not all) seem to sell out. 
There is not an unlimited market in Gauge 1/G scale. 
I think Accucraft could well slow down and be a little more careful about what they build. 
It's fine to say that they will only build if they get enough orders, but I really don't think that that's the way to do it either! 
Built it (the right model) and they will sell! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chris Scott on 06 Jul 2010 10:04 AM 
Posted By zubi on 06 Jul 2010 07:02 AM 
8+10+12+14+15=5 ;-) times $5000 is about one Allegheny RTR, isn't it? Best, Zubi 
Zubi:

I'm not sure of the math. $5000 is the price estimate, in previous threads, for Accucraft's live steam WSLCO #15 3-Truck Shay and the five you listed would adds up to ~$25K.

[...]


But if you mean five Accucraft Shays compared to an Aster Allegheny your math is certainly correct, although that seems like the proverbial apples to oranges comparison wouldn't you agree? 

Chris, absolutely, that was my intention! Comparing five apples with one orange. They would cost about the same;-)))) And I'd prefer five apples. You may prefer the orange. Or a banana. I already have an RTR Allegheny box and that is the best part of it!!! As for the prices, $5000 for Accucraft Shay is realistic, if it becomes $6000 with a tapered boiler, I will have four apples or have to pay $30000. Hard luck. I will buy ALL THE WSL #s that Accucraft may produce. And perhaps not only WSL but with a full valve gear. Now as for RTR Allegheny, they are 25000 but new not second hand: http://www.svrronline.com/Locomotives_Aster.html We are not talking about second stuff here. Anyway, lets talk WSL SHAYS!!!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 06 Jul 2010 05:07 PM 
That I fear could be Accucraft's downfall. 
They have and are producing so much in all different directions, but then complain that they are not selling enough. 
Aster have carefully paced themselves over the years to make sure that customers are ready to buy their next model and most (not all) seem to sell out. 
There is not an unlimited market in Gauge 1/G scale. 
I think Accucraft could well slow down and be a little more careful about what they build. 
*It's fine to say that they will only build if they get enough orders, but I really don't think that that's the way to do it either! * Built it (the right model) and they will sell! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

*Aster lovers start drooling and saving your pennies! *

Posted By RP3 on 26 Jan 2010 07:21 PM Just wanted to share some information that I got directly from Hans in a conversation this evening. First, while Aster is considering the production of the Challenger, no final decision has yet been made as to whether to proceed or not. Hans has asked all the dealers to poll their customers to see the level of interest to determine whether to produce the engine and if so, which versions have enough interest to be included. For instance, if there was a lot of interest, ready to be backed up by non-refundable $1,000 deposits, Aster might elect to produce a Clinchfield version or a Rio Grande version, etcetera.... If enough people in the US stand ready to make the commitment of those deposits, then Hans will ask Aster Japan to see if there is also enough interest in the engine in Japan, Europe and so on to see if Aster will commit to producing the model. 


Hans says that he has set a deadline of March 2010 to decide if there is enough demand here in the US to try to push for completion of the project. In the meantime, Aster has been doing design work on the engine with a goal that if the decision is to proceed, they would have a prototype model to Hans in time for Diamondhead 2011. 

As it is currently developing and if it is in fact produced, the tentative specifications are for an alcohol/coal combination boiler like was done for the Garrett. But even here, no decision has been finalized. If the addition of coal firing causes the price target to move up too much, there is the possibility that the engine might be alcohol only -- but like everything else I've mentioned here, nothing has been cast in stone yet. Hans wants to be able to accommodate as many of the reasonable requests as possible and have as modern an implementation of the Challenger as possible -- and not just a repeat of the BB -- but features such as drain cocks are subject to negotiation. Everybody needs to also keep in mind that the market and exchange rates can play havoc with this project too by pushing prices outside of a target range that is around $12k-$13k. 

I think that Hans, the other distributors and *Aster* Japan have taken the only reasonable approach given the world unrest. They want to offer a quality engine, and they think that the *Challenger* will be a welcome and profitable project for everyone concerned, but *they will not undertake the project until and unless enough potential buyers step forward and let their dealer know of their willingness to commit to purchase one -- or more -- and back that commitment up with $1k each!* This approach will mean that IF Aster proceeds, they will be building enough engines to meet those committed deposits only, like the Garrett, with the likelihood that there will be no extras on spec. Of course some enterprising dealer(s) could choose to place their own orders for engines that they will buy and then have available for resale, but definitely Hans and probably Aster Japan too will not be building this engine to go into inventory. So the more engines are committed to, then the better the likelihood that the price can stay lower and the project proceed. If fewer commitments are received, then the price would likely increase or the project die entirely. 

So Hans has put the future of this project in your hands guys. 

Ross Schlabach 
David:
Isn't this a common approach with specialized and expensive products?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

No. 
It's an example of poor management and lack of commitment. 
Would we have the Veyron with this attitude? 
NO. 
Good marketing and knowing your customer is all that is really needed. 
That's good normal business sense. 
The Aster Challenger (which has gone ahead) is just that Hans had run out of big engines and was too scared to make a choice with what was left. 
This way if it was a flop, he can blame the customers. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Anthony Duarte on 06 Jul 2010 04:12 PM 
In reality I wouldn't be able to buy all of those... can't afford it!

Cliff had once mentioned to me that they had intended to make all the 3-truck WLSCo shays in live steam (or at least more than just #15), but never continued with the project because of electric #15's lack of sales.

Still keeping my fingers crossed... 
Well,
if Accucraft had started with an electric Ruby, the foreseeable disappointing sales figures would have deprived us from a live steam one







. Comparing electric and live steam is not even like comparing apples and oranges.

Regards


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Respectfully, I don't agree. I think we underestimate the up front costs of these projects and comparing Hans to the Volkswagon group that funded development of the Veyron is hardly fair. Given the price of the Challenger, I think it is very fair to ask for an upfront deposit. Aster did the same with the re-run of the AD60 and it seemed to work well. My only grouse - why do I have to wait until the end of 2011









Robert


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Robert, 
I know that all the successful business men use other peoples money to make products, and I guess that's a fact of some modern business. 
What I was trying to explain was that taking deposits to see if enough were received BEFORE committing to building is somehow improper. 
I would have thought that you do you market research first, then make a decision and if you need deposits then take them. 
Accucraft sat on my deposit for the Royal Hudson for nearly two years before I saw the loco, and that was too long. 
Does anyone know how many Challengers are going to be built? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
p.s. Sorry that we have got away from the original topic!


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

Well I think reply #15 would be an appropriate one to re-rail the conversation.

I think this has come up in discussions before, but how many preorders does it take for Accucraft to decide that a project would be profitable? 
Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to get a substantial list of people that would be willing to buy one or more WSLCo shays.


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd by one with the presumption that it's to the caliber of the live steam K36 and the electric WSL#15 both of which I owe or have owned. $5000 would be a reasonable price but then so would $5500..But and this is a big But it can't be like the 3 cylinder shay. I expect decent valve gear and a run time out around 45 minutes which I'd guess could only be done with an axel driven water pump....I would not want to have hand pump every 10 minutes. So put a big gas tank in one tank and water and feed pump from the other and we could be good to go.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

I might buy one. It depends on price and availability of funds.

This might be a interesting engine for my first Accucraft.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By lvmosher on 07 Jul 2010 01:22 PM 
I'd by one with the presumption that it's to the caliber of the live steam K36 and the electric WSL#15 both of which I owe or have owned. $5000 would be a reasonable price but then so would $5500..But and this is a big But it can't be like the 3 cylinder shay. I expect decent valve gear and a run time out around 45 minutes which I'd guess could only be done with an axel driven water pump....I would not want to have hand pump every 10 minutes. So put a big gas tank in one tank and water and feed pump from the other and we could be good to go. 
Larry,
An axle driven water pump on a Shay.
Now that's an interesting situation.
I guess you would mount it on one of the trucks and use a flexible pipe at some point to allow the truck to rotate.
Or perhaps right off the main crank?
Do the Asters have an axle pump? 
Al the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 07 Jul 2010 04:16 PM 
Posted By lvmosher on 07 Jul 2010 01:22 PM 
I'd by one with the presumption that it's to the caliber of the live steam K36 and the electric WSL#15 both of which I owe or have owned. $5000 would be a reasonable price but then so would $5500..But and this is a big But it can't be like the 3 cylinder shay. I expect decent valve gear and a run time out around 45 minutes which I'd guess could only be done with an axel driven water pump....I would not want to have hand pump every 10 minutes. So put a big gas tank in one tank and water and feed pump from the other and we could be good to go. 
Larry,
An axle driven water pump on a Shay.
Now that's an interesting situation.
I guess you would mount it on one of the trucks and use a flexible pipe at some point to allow the truck to rotate.
Or perhaps right off the main crank?
Do the Asters have an axle pump? 
Al the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada

Mike Chaney put one on his little Climax which runs off the main drive shaft. On a Shay, however, the main drive shaft is outside, not under the engine. All the cranks and valve gear are exposed so I don't know how you could do it other than put in a hidden gear drive somehow. Mounting it off one of the trucks might cause derailment problems with the torque, a problem Shay's already have enough of as they are.


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## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

In short, No 
Let them finish the other projects that they have going, like the Mason Bogey 

Kurt


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

David, John, et al. 

The Aster three truck shay (either WM or GC&E) does in fact have a substantial axle pump mounted on the front axle of the front truck. With a boiler capacity of a sparse 320 ML and a fuel tank that can last for 45 minutes, stopping to handpump is quite inconvient given the water consumption of three cylinders. The bore/stroke is 6mm x 6mm (1/4" x 1/4"), which puts in ample amounts of water even at prototypical speeds. It uses flexible hose connections for the intake and feed which has never posed an issue provided that the minimum radius requirement is adhered to (10 ft min). 

There are no "torque steer" derailment issues either when the existing Accucraft 3 cylinder shays have been converted with an identical axle pump system. A 3 truck shay in the model world does not really have enough give/take to run on anything less than a 6-8ft radius, in my opinion. A friend of ours had done a 3 cylinder with aux tender early on and had Norm Saley add a 6mm x 6mm axle pump to meet the high consumption rate. 

FYI, when comparing apples-apples (similar model of shay- 3 truck, 3 cylinder. Scale is not a factor here!) the pricing of around $5,500-6,000 usd is a fairly good estimate. The WM/GC&E shays from Aster (which have a tapered boiler by the way!) fall in a $4,000-6,000 range in Today's market. This price is very reasonable considering these engines don't often exchange ownership. 

Personally, I would see the recipe for success on the WSL 3 truck shay being: 
-7/16" or 1/2" (11mm - 13mm) cylinders with proper Stephenson valve gear (or Half-Stephenson equivalent used on the 4-4-0/C16/C19) 
-Equally proportioned axle pump on the front truck. 
-Nice sized gas tank in the oil bunker or water tank (350-450ml capacity) 
-Twin burner boiler, with as much outer diameter as the front of the jacket allows for, or a tapered boiler (only useful if making a larger production run) 
-Large capacity dead leg lubricator in the RH side air tank 
-Interested parties backing their word with deposits (start up cash for the project!) 
-Good timing in the economy/market. 


Don't count your chickens before they hatch, though. I would gander that they will wait and see how the Climax is going to fair before considering building another shay model in steam. Perhaps something like 55 ton generic 3 truck would be better suited to the masses instead of doing the specific WSL/Pacific Coast style?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 07 Jul 2010 04:56 PM 

Mike Chaney put one on his little Climax which runs off the main drive shaft. On a Shay, however, the main drive shaft is outside, not under the engine. All the cranks and valve gear are exposed so I don't know how you could do it other than put in a hidden gear drive somehow. Mounting it off one of the trucks might cause derailment problems with the torque, a problem Shay's already have enough of as they are.


I was thinking maybe an extra eccentric amongst the valve gear driving a crosswise mounted pump under the firebox.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Ryan, why the axle pump on the front truck?? It should be mounted on the second, middle truck under the coal bunker. A hand pump should be in the same bunker. Minimal plumbing, shortest transmission route from the cylinders. Also, I think the twin burner twin flue concept is the dumbest thing Accucraft have ever devised. One larger burner would be enough. Even twin burner is OK, BUT in one (e.g. oval) flue where re-ignition would be possible. I would add a properly tapered boiler for increased water capacity... Best, Zubi 
PS the Climax is not going to gauge the interest in a proper WSL Shay. We all thought that the Climax would have proper valve gear, but it turned out to be block reversing piston valves like the existing entry level Shays...


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Kurt Sykes on 07 Jul 2010 05:01 PM 
In short, No 
Let them finish the other projects that they have going, like the Mason Bogey 

Kurt 
Kurt, except for the EBT #12 all the projects appear to be finished, someone just has to produce them;-))).... I guess all the Chinese went on the well deserved holidays!!! Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Anthony Duarte on 07 Jul 2010 11:33 AM 
Well I think reply #15 would be an appropriate one to re-rail the conversation.

I think this has come up in discussions before, but how many preorders does it take for Accucraft to decide that a project would be profitable? 
Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to get a substantial list of people that would be willing to buy one or more WSLCo shays. 

Anthony, I would think that a list of 50 committed people with their names would be a good start of a serious discussion. If I remember right, Jay collected some 70+ names for the Mason Bogie within less than a month, but he also went out to a number of hobby meetings to advertise the idea. You cannot just count on the Internet connected people but it definitely is a good place to start and organise the revolution;-)... The Mason Bogie idea was without doubt the best seller Accucraft had in their entire history. Thanks to MLS with in particular Jay, plus David and others of course. Best wishes, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi
"The Mason Bogie idea was without doubt the best seller Accucraft had in their entire history." I am going to guess that the Ruby was the best seller, then the first Shay and the AC-12 with the sold out double run had far more production numbers than the Mason Bogie.
IMHO- the #15 Shay would be a top seller....someday!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Charles, Obviously, I mean limited edition models... where we know the numbers produced. You cannot compare a limited production run with models which are rerun ad infinitum. I am still going to defend the thesis that Mason Bogie was the most successful sales Accucraft ever had, in terms of volume and sales for a limited run model, but I think that this is a Shay thread;-), so let's stick to that. Best, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi
You are correct, two "rights" can make a wrong....to divert the topic from the Shay to a discussion of limited productions such as the Cab Forward. I think the Shay would match an limited production number sales. Time will tell.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the Shay or the Heisler would be a great seller. Maybe 75-100pcs each??? One never knows though. I think the Mason sold better due to the moderate pricing. I do know that Accucraft has so much in the pipe line and they can even keep up with production of a fully sold out model that is 100% funds when built???? If my business everything would of been pushed to produce the Mason as it is sold out at 300pcs. Not bad since it started out at a 75 steam/75 electric then bumped to 100 each then 125 then 150. Once the sample came out at each show it was at there were just more and more sales. Just look though at the other higer priced locos, they still have K28's in stock in both electric and steam. Only 100 were made and there were a bunch of damaged scrapped units from shipping.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 07 Jul 2010 12:33 AM 
Robert, 
I know that all the successful business men use other peoples money to make products, and I guess that's a fact of some modern business. 
What I was trying to explain was that taking deposits to see if enough were received BEFORE committing to building is somehow improper. 
I would have thought that you do you market research first, then make a decision and if you need deposits then take them. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission. In todays economy, I do not see how anyone would take the chance in a hobby as small as this. Even if you get deposits, that does not come close to the initial investment used to get a Loco off the drawing board and into production. If the economy gets worse and people start backing out after production has started, you would loose your shirt even with their deposits. And, not all loco's sell out as fast as others even though there seemed to be a high interest at first. These loco's that we run can be a big gamble for those that produce them.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 07 Jul 2010 07:28 PM 
Zubi
"The Mason Bogie idea was without doubt the best seller Accucraft had in their entire history." I am going to guess that the Ruby was the best seller, then the first Shay and the AC-12 with the sold out double run had far more production numbers than the Mason Bogie.
IMHO- the #15 Shay would be a top seller....someday! 



Charles:

Total Cab Forward (AC-11/12) from two runs totaled less than 100? The planned full run (100) stopped at roughly ~60-65. The second run 25 unit's only. 
The NGG16 Garratt had three runs. The first 2 sold out prior to production and most of the 3rd run prior to it shipping, it has been sold out for some time. Seems I remember runs were 65-70+ each, the total little over 200. 

K27, K-28 edition were 100 each.


Could the Mason Bogie sales be more than the Garratt?


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris, Somehow a comparison with productions which were re-run is not quite fair. But even if we do that, the total number of Mason Bogies from the first and long sold out run is 250 according to Accucraft's own website. That is probably both live steam and electric but then again, it is all comparing apples to mangos and bananas. The fact is that the very idea of the engine sold out before anyone got their own and the numbers are impressive. There price of the Mason Bogie is definitely something unique as it was an all completely new development even though MLS Master Class info was at hand and available. I am not sure whether any of this were actually used other than the paint scheme for which David contributed greatly as we all know. There is something mystical about Mason Bogie and I do not think that there is a different engine which can capture so much enthusiasm. Indeed this has been utilised very well. But we will not see any re-runs of the Mason-Bogie, at least not in the two paint schemes first offered so from this perspective it is a winner hands down, IMHO. Best, Zubi


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 07 Jul 2010 09:44 PM 


It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission. In todays economy, I do not see how anyone would take the chance in a hobby as small as this. Even if you get deposits, that does not come close to the initial investment used to get a Loco off the drawing board and into production. If the economy gets worse and people start backing out after production has started, you would loose your shirt even with their deposits. And, not all loco's sell out as fast as others even though there seemed to be a high interest at first. These loco's that we run can be a big gamble for those that produce them.



Okay Steve,
I'll bite, since you must know.
HOW much does it cost?
Do you have to give Aster or Accucraft all the money up front? 
Or just enough to make the prototype, and then the rest before production starts?
How much does a loco cost to produce?
Without facts, we can just guess, but I can assume that Hans does not do this to lose money.
I agree that all business ventures are a gamble, but they should be one that is carefully managed.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, I also tend to think that 75-100 is a max production number for a live steam Shay although once developed, various serial WSL numbers could multiply this production number. Accucraft visibly slowed down their US line to a near still stand. And very wisely so. They are now producing for UK and Germany where the deals are based on secured funds from the importers. This trend will continue until US models will start selling again and until the long list of the US prototypes they have in the pipeline (essentially all already developed) will provide the necessary return for investing in the new ideas. This will take time, 3-5 years, IMHO. Even with a solid base of 75 secured pre-orders for a Shay at $6000 we would need to wait five years for one. At least. Still worth it for me. Best, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 07 Jul 2010 11:23 PM 
Posted By Charles on 07 Jul 2010 07:28 PM 
Zubi
"The Mason Bogie idea was without doubt the best seller Accucraft had in their entire history." I am going to guess that the Ruby was the best seller, then the first Shay and the AC-12 with the sold out double run had far more production numbers than the Mason Bogie.
IMHO- the #15 Shay would be a top seller....someday! 



Charles:

Total Cab Forward (AC-11/12) from two runs totaled less than 100? The planned full run (100) stopped at roughly ~60-65. The second run 25 unit's only. 
The NGG16 Garratt had three runs. The first 2 sold out prior to production and most of the 3rd run prior to it shipping, it has been sold out for some time. Seems I remember runs were 65-70+ each, the total little over 200. 

K27, K-28 edition were 100 each.


Could the Mason Bogie sales be more than the Garratt? 




All of these numbers beg the question: "what is defined as limited?" 60-100-300-500. On the Accucraft website the second run of AC-12 was stated as "very limited." I would venture to say that the #15 Shay or any of the similar models would be "very limited" given the climate of the world economy.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Charles, the more limited, the more exciting - for me personally. I would not mind if Accucraft produces a limited edition totaling 1 ;-)... More seriously, why not give them a hand and make a list of people dedicated to buy this Super-Shay. We have time for that. Nothing will happen before all the Mason Bogies, Slim Princesses and even more importantly, all the Kalahari's get to their owners. That will take 8-10 months from now. Well, my name is at the top of this thread, for any of these (or all three) #10, #12 and #15. Anyone else wants to increase the limited edition run to two pieces;-)))??? Zubi


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By zubi on 08 Jul 2010 05:53 AM 
Charles, the more limited, the more exciting - for me personally. I would not mind if Accucraft produces a limited edition totaling 1 ;-)... More seriously, why not give them a hand and make a list of people dedicated to buy this Super-Shay. We have time for that. Nothing will happen before all the Mason Bogies, Slim Princesses and even more importantly, all the Kalahari's get to their owners. That will take 8-10 months from now. Well, my name is at the top of this thread, for any of these (or all three) #10, #12 and #15. Anyone else wants to increase the limited edition run to two pieces;-)))??? Zubi 


You can put my name on that list as well!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 08 Jul 2010 05:29 AM 

All of these numbers beg the question: "what is defined as limited?" 60-100-300-500. On the Accucraft website the second run of AC-12 was stated as "very limited." I would venture to say that the #15 Shay or any of the similar models would be "very limited" given the climate of the world economy.













Charles:

Limited production? What does limited production mean for a car? 

"Second run" of Cab Forwards is a misnomer. The 25 completed the original planned 100 unit limited edition. I believe Accucraft was willing to build the remaining 25 because then had the parts and/or tooling. The 25 were underwritten by two individuals. The few remaining were sold out well prior to delivery. Actually oversold with a good list of willing buyers in waiting. Call it a second run if you wish, mistaken as it may be.



Zubi: 
Your creative math and explanation inventions continue to amaze


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 08 Jul 2010 11:09 AM 
Posted By Charles on 08 Jul 2010 05:29 AM 

All of these numbers beg the question: "what is defined as limited?" 60-100-300-500. On the Accucraft website the second run of AC-12 was stated as "very limited." I would venture to say that the #15 Shay or any of the similar models would be "very limited" given the climate of the world economy.













Charles:

Limited production? What does limited production mean for a car? 

"Second run" of Cab Forwards is a misnomer. The 25 completed the original planned 100 unit limited edition. I believe Accucraft was willing to build the remaining 25 because then had the parts and/or tooling. The 25 were underwritten by two individuals. The few remaining were sold out well prior to delivery. Actually oversold with a good list of willing buyers in waiting. Call it a second run if you wish, mistaken as it may be.



Zubi: 
Your creative math and explanation inventions continue to amaze































Chris
"Call it a second run if you wish, mistaken as it may be." I'll let the company know that you have denoted a mistake in their website description....at NSS next week

Accucraft website post: 

Accucraft is proud to announce *the second production run *of our Cab Forward live steam in both the AC11 and AC12 road numbers. Production will be VERY limited. No deposit is required, so place your orders as soon as possible. (Available while supplies last) 


The "second run" was much more than available parts and tooling, given the numerous upgrades that has resolved many issues of the first released (cross head guides, truck pin, etc) units.


BTW- one might also tell them since they indicated the AC-11/12 is *SOLD OUT* it would be less confusing if they updated the descriptive portion for this model: no longer available.


Zubi
Unfortunately, given my SG preference and that I have the Aster WM Shay I will not be joining the list but believe the offering is worth having in any NG stable of engines!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

OK, so we have the following list for the SUPER Shay: 
1) Anthony 
2) Zubi 
Larry, would you like to join or shall we stop at this limited ed of 2;-)? Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chris Scott on 08 Jul 2010 11:09 AM 

Zubi: 
Your creative math and explanation inventions continue to amaze






























Chris, thanks!! That's what I do for a living... Best, Zubi


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

#3 Larry is in


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 08 Jul 2010 04:22 PM 
OK, so we have the following list for the SUPER Shay: 
1) Anthony 
2) Zubi 
Larry, would you like to join or shall we stop at this limited ed of 2;-)? Zubi 

Well Zubi, I started this thread so obviously I am interested in one also. Thanks.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John, I thought that you started this thread only to suggest they should build something else;-)))) 
Just joking... 
Well this is the current Super-Shay demand: 
1) John Frank 
2) Anthony Duarte 
3) Larry Mosher 
4) Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 08 Jul 2010 04:39 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 08 Jul 2010 11:09 AM 

Zubi: 
Your creative math and explanation inventions continue to amaze






























Chris, thanks!! That's what I do for a living... Best, Zubi 

Hmmm, I thought the math had to be real and the explanations accurate and true to make a living. But I guess given recent events you must make a good living working for Toyota, yes? 
he he he





































Gosh, wish you were coming to NSS







, then we could do this "banter" face-to-face.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not a WSLCO 3-Truck Shay buyer. 

It seems like everyone is settling for half a loaf. A 3-Truck Shay is only 50% bigger than a 2-Truck Shay. 

I would only buy a 100% bigger Shay, a 4-Truck Shay.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 07 Jul 2010 11:47 PM 
Posted By Steve S. on 07 Jul 2010 09:44 PM 


It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission. In todays economy, I do not see how anyone would take the chance in a hobby as small as this. Even if you get deposits, that does not come close to the initial investment used to get a Loco off the drawing board and into production. If the economy gets worse and people start backing out after production has started, you would loose your shirt even with their deposits. And, not all loco's sell out as fast as others even though there seemed to be a high interest at first. These loco's that we run can be a big gamble for those that produce them.



Okay Steve,
I'll bite, since you must know.
HOW much does it cost?
Do you have to give Aster or Accucraft all the money up front? 
Or just enough to make the prototype, and then the rest before production starts?
How much does a loco cost to produce?
Without facts, we can just guess, but I can assume that Hans does not do this to lose money.
I agree that all business ventures are a gamble, but they should be one that is carefully managed.
All the best,
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*






Hello David. I never said that I know what the cost's are. What I said was, "It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission". I would suspect though that it is a lot more then most people would want to take a chance on. The proof is shown in the fact of how few have taken the risk and done it.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 10 Jul 2010 12:31 AM 
Posted By David Leech on 07 Jul 2010 11:47 PM 
Posted By Steve S. on 07 Jul 2010 09:44 PM 


It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission. In todays economy, I do not see how anyone would take the chance in a hobby as small as this. Even if you get deposits, that does not come close to the initial investment used to get a Loco off the drawing board and into production. If the economy gets worse and people start backing out after production has started, you would loose your shirt even with their deposits. And, not all loco's sell out as fast as others even though there seemed to be a high interest at first. These loco's that we run can be a big gamble for those that produce them.



Okay Steve,
I'll bite, since you must know.
HOW much does it cost?
Do you have to give Aster or Accucraft all the money up front? 
Or just enough to make the prototype, and then the rest before production starts?
How much does a loco cost to produce?
Without facts, we can just guess, but I can assume that Hans does not do this to lose money.
I agree that all business ventures are a gamble, but they should be one that is carefully managed.
All the best,







Hello David. I never said that I know what the cost's are. What I said was, "It sounds so easy to commission a Loco when you are not the one _funding_[/b] the commission". I would suspect though that it is a lot more then most people would want to take a chance on. The proof is shown in the fact of how few have taken the risk and done it.




In this case however, the locomotive has already been developed as in the electric version. All that is needed is to convert it to steam. All the work making and designing the locomotive and detail parts and the drive train has already been done. The main effort then would be to add the boiler and build the functioning three cylinder engine. It's no where near the same as developing an engine from scratch as that has already been done. There would be, therefore, minimal development costs. That is why we brought up this particular engine and also the #3 Heisler that Dwight was mentioning. Accucraft has already designed and developed and marketed these engines as electric versions so there is not that much to making a live steam version. Most of us thought that is what they would do. Instead, they came out with the totally new climax just out of the blue and made it an inexpensive knock off using existing stock.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John, one thing is obvious from this thread and the other one by Dwight - we should not underestimate Accucraft's intuition w/r to the market. This little exercise which you started on the WSL #15 clearly shows that at least in terms of the current economy this engine would be a total flop. Yes, I would like to have one. You too. And two more people. That's it. That is not going to convince Accucraft. Neither is the 16 (anonymous) votes on the Heisler thread. These numbers (say times 2 to include those who still survive off-line) essentially reflect the current size of the market as a function of the price of the engine. Apart from the essentially non-existant demand, Accucraft does not really have a fully developed technology for these engines either. What they can achieve in terms of geared engines they already have released, and the Climax (apart from the seriously misleading initial info on the valve gear) is just an incremental, small step towards developing geared live steam a little further. At the price of the two truck Shay, they will sell enough Climaxes to make this an economically feasible step in these tough times. But even this simple engine is trailing on the list of releases and I'd be surprised if we see them before the end of 2011. 
So for the time being, let them do what they know how to do well. Rod engines. They made noises about C-25 and RGS #22-25. I for one would be happy to see these engines. But who knows... After the EBT fiasco, they may drop these ideas or even another one of the already announced. 
I was quick to answer this call because ever since I saw the WSL #12 by Aster I wished I had one in live steam. This was also the case with the K-28 and the NGG-13 Garratt, and, miraculously, in these cases, Accucraft made my wish come true! The Shay wish, however, is still but a wish. And quite an unlikely one so it would seem. 
Maybe, just maybe, something will shake and start moving in the Shay universe when WUHU and Aster Shays enter this market... Otherwise, my five years projected wait for the WSL by Accucraft should be rephrased to 15, pronounced as never;-(... Just think how often Aster released their Shays when live steam was still in big demand... Best, Zubi


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 10 Jul 2010 09:33 AM 
John, one thing is obvious from this thread and the other one by Dwight - we should not underestimate Accucraft's intuition w/r to the market. This little exercise which you started on the WSL #15 clearly shows that at least in terms of the current economy this engine would be a total flop. 

Zubi, I did not set this up as a survey simply because I don't know how. Dwight is getting at least 17 yes on his survey. That is more than the original 4-4-0 survey got and it has been a huge success. I believe there is a big demand for WSLCo engines that has never been satisfied in live steam. Accucraft is busy right now with their current roster, but look at how big the mason bogie went over. I am not so sure that Accucraft really knows their market that well in the US. I have been to conventions and meets and talked to Bing and he always asked the question as to what people are interested in. He even said at one meet "I think the narrow gauge market has been pretty much saturated" thinking they had made everything possible. Anyone in narrow gauge knows that is not so and now witness the mason bogie, the SP #9, the Climax, etc. I don't think he really knows his market. WSLCo was pretty much the last of the 3' loggers and lasted into the 1960's, way past any of their brothers in the business thus has a large following and many of their engines still exist and are in service. If some common sense prevails over at Accucraft I think we will eventually see the #15 and the Heisler. We shall see. They also have never touched on the Uintah articulated engines which eventually went to the Sumpter Valley. This engine is made by Bachman and is very popular yet nothing from Accucraft. As Cliff always says, "if we live long enough". lol.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"We shall see. They also have never touched on the Uintah articulated engines which eventually went to the Sumpter Valley. This engine is made by Bachman and is very popular yet nothing from Accucraft."

The Uintah was very popular and also produced by LGB. That might be a NG I would considered.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Charles and John, they did touch on it... In fact I discussed the Uintah with several people at Accucraft almost two years ago and got very good response! But I figured the time was and still is not right for an expensive engine like that so I decided not to bring up the subject here, not yet at least. I was waiting for the Mason Bogie and for the economic climate to improve. But things are slow, very slow. In fact I have a posting ready wrote it almost a year ago! But now that we are running these 'would you buy...' exercises, and you mention the engine explicitly, I might as well post it. The right time may never come, but there is always a good time to dream. Best wishes, Zubi


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Charles,

I don't see any Uintah side tank mallets listed on the Bachmann site.

They do have a 2-6-6-2 saddle tank locomotive - a typical Baldwin logging locomotive.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce
John might know a bit about the engine but here is a web link:

http://www.grblogs.com/index.php/2008/12/20/bachmann-2-6-6-2-arrives-at-cdaamp-stl?blog=4


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 11 Jul 2010 03:59 AM 
Charles,

I don't see any Uintah side tank mallets listed on the Bachmann site.

They do have a 2-6-6-2 saddle tank locomotive - a typical Baldwin logging locomotive.


I guess that's it. It is advertised as 1:20.3 scale and it looks very much like the Uintah engine but they offer it in multiple roads. LGB also made the Uintah engine as Charles stated above. Here is a link to it. http://www.lgb.com/de/produkte/schm...tiven.html

Sorry for the confusion. I was typing from memory, which doesn't work that well any more.







In any case, as far as I know no one has offered it in live steam.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is a narrow gauge version of the Baldwin logging Mallet, which was never actually built but was proposed for the Biles-Coleman Lumber Co. in the late 1920's. There are a few key differences from the Uintah engines. Apart from the obvious saddle tank vs. square side tanks, the Biles-Coleman Mallet would have been smaller than the Uintah engines, and would have been a true compound Mallet (larger cylinders in front) while the Uintah engines were simple articulateds (all cylinders the same size). I suppose that's a good thing for those who would like to see the Uintah engines in live steam, compounding would add another layer of complexity (or another point of contention for the purists) and would be new territory for Accucraft. I know Aster has done a couple of non-articulated compound engines, have they ever done a true compound Mallet?

Of course, none of this has anything to do with a West Side Lumber Shay! I think that's probably a good reason why a thread on a forum like this is not a true gauge of the interest in producing a model, as those who would otherwise be interested might be put off from posting by the thread drift and only-marginally-related (or completely unrelated) banter that seems to outnumber the "Yes, I would like one too" posts here by a very wide margin. If you really want to get people on board, perhaps asking for responses by e-mail rather than posting on the forum would be a better approach. On any web forum, there's a pretty surprising number of lurkers who read the posts but don't get actively involved in the conversation. Probably all the more so when threads get hijacked by the regular gang of forum personalities. I've gotta assume there's a historical society, a web forum, and/or a Yahoo group or similar devoted to West Side Lumber, which might also be fertile ground for potential buyers. 

And to try to get back on topic: No, I wouldn't. I'd like to but can't fit it in the budget.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By rwjenkins on 12 Jul 2010 08:44 AM 
I know Aster has done a couple of non-articulated compound engines, have they ever done a true compound Mallet?

Richard,
Aster produced the BR96 Mallet, which is a compound.
http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/abr96mallet.htm 
I have had one run around my track a couple of times and it seemed to work very well.Just HOW WELL the compounding worked, I really don't know, but needed to get nice and warm before it ran smoothly.
I guess that you would need the identical loco as a 'simple', and then do all kinds of measurements and tests to see if the compounding actually created a fuel saving, and I really think with our scales it really wouldn't make a huge difference.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Back to the topic in the heading. I'd only be interested in a WSLCo Shay in live steam IF the price was below, way below, the 5 to 6 thousand dollars being mentioned.

My goal at one point was to own one of every different model Shay produced. I resisted the Aster Western Maryland as I couldn't justify the $4000 and a new scale for me to have to acquire cars for.


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## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

John,

Your idea might be closer to reality than you might think.

http://www.accucraftrideon.com/pg-news.htm

Being 7-1/2" gauge, this RTR Accucraft live steam 3 truck Shay officially under consideration might be a bit larger than you had in mind.

If you want this Shay to be WSLCo #15, now would be the time to indicate interest. All you would nead is a 2-1/2" donkey to cut, load, and haul real trees.

Tom Burns


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Tom Burns on 12 Jul 2010 10:59 PM 
John,

Your idea might be closer to reality than you might think.

http://www.accucraftrideon.com/pg-news.htm

Being 7-1/2" gauge, this RTR Accucraft live steam 3 truck Shay officially under consideration might be a bit larger than you had in mind.

If you want this Shay to be WSLCo #15, now would be the time to indicate interest. All you would nead is a 2-1/2" donkey to cut, load, and haul real trees.

Tom Burns


I asked cliff about this engine, because I would give literally anything to have a 1.5" scale west side shay to run on 4.75" gauge track. But he said they were considering the Mich. Cal shay that they had already produced in 1:20.3... which is not 3-truck. He also didn't specify whether it would be the 2 or 3 cylinder prototype. A little disappointed... but I'm sure that would be significantly cheaper and more realistic to produce than a full blown 2.5" scale WSLCo shay.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I talked to Cliff about comments and questions concerning deposit being batted around in this thread. The idea of a deposit seemed odd to me since I have not been asked for a deposit through my dealer (The Train Shop of Santa Clara) on any of the several steamers I bought over the last two or three years. 

Cliff told me that for more than two years and currently Accucraft does not request or require deposits on locomotive orders. Whether there is a deposit and the amount of the deposit is at the discretion of dealers. Any deposits taken by dealers are not forwarded to Accucraft, the deposit funds are held by dealers.

Cliff said the last locomotive for which Accucraft accepted deposits was about three years ago for the EBT 12. Accucraft received few deposits. This lack of interest is the reason the EBT 12 has not been produced. If you made a deposit for an EBT 12 followup with your dealer. 

Cliff suggested, if you were ask to make or made a deposit on an Accucraft locomotive, contact your dealer to clarify the situation and who holds your deposit funds. 

Hearing this from Cliff to me it is clear, Accucraft determines what products to make, designs, builds and sells those locomotives (or holds unsold inventory) with their own funds, therefore entirely at their own risk. Additionally, as evidence from past projects, Accucraft does collaborate on specific products such as the Fort Wilderness.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

And not to forget, all the UK and German models are fully determined by the importers who commission them. Was the RH not a similar story? It is enough to find a dedicated dealer who will come up with the idea and funding and likely the results will be as good as those we have seen in the above examples. Best, Zubi 
PS I am not sure if for the EBT 12/14/15 deposits were actually required...


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 07 Jul 2010 12:33 AM 
Robert, 
I know that all the successful business men use other peoples money to make products, and I guess that's a fact of some modern business. 
What I was trying to explain was that taking deposits to see if enough were received BEFORE committing to building is somehow improper. 
I would have thought that you do you market research first, then make a decision and if you need deposits then take them. 
Accucraft sat on my deposit for the Royal Hudson for nearly two years before I saw the loco, and that was too long. 
Does anyone know how many Challengers are going to be built? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
p.s. Sorry that we have got away from the original topic! 
I wish to apologise to all that I upset with the comments that I have made.
At the NSS in Sacramento, Hans explained to me in clear terms that I had nothing correct in my comments, and explained the method of financing the Aster Challenger model.
He DOES NOT in any way use the non refundable (unless the project is cancelled) deposit to finance this model, as it is put in ESCROW account that he does not have access too.
I am sorry if I suggested that he did make use of this money.
I just wanted to make sure that everyone is clear on this fact. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

So did anyone ask Cliff about the likelyhood that we'll ever see a WSLCo shay in live steam?


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## Chuck Prough (Dec 27, 2007)

I would buy a WLS 15, or ny other 3 Cyl (Shay Live Steam) . I can always repaint it. I actuall got to drive a shay at Roaring Camp and Big Trees RR in Felton, CA. This got me into G railroading.

I thought I saw someone advertising a RR&BT #5 in 20.3 "coming soon" Anyone else recall such an ad?

Chuck Prough


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

I thought I saw someone advertising a RR&BT #5 in 20.3 "coming soon" Anyone else recall such an ad?

Chuck Prough



Do you mean RC&BT? As in Roaring Camp & Big Trees Railroad? Because as of now they don't have an engine assigned #5. However, I believe the climax that they have sitting outside would be #5 - should they ever get around to restoring it.


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