# How to make a layout compatible for all trains?



## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Hello all,

As I start to build my layout one of the questions popped into my head (lots fo room to run around in there!







) was how do I make my track compatible to trains with DCC, standard power, radio control, etc can all run on the same track? What are some of the gotcha's that I should watch out for? Thanks all.

Rich


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Radio control with battery power can run on wooden tracks so just as long as your track is clear it will run. The only problems your going to run into is between DCC and straight DC, and that mostly depends on how complicated your track plan is. Multi train operation on a large complex layout with striaight DC requires seperating the layout into different sections or "blocks" each controled by a central panel where the power pack is, with alot of wiring to each block to control thottlepower thru that block. DCC requires running a digital signal thru the track, blocks can disrupt that signal making operation on a block control layout difficult, maybe impossible. The cheif advantage of DCC is that it only requires a simple connection to the track as long as its continous, the signal gets thru. no blocks required. If the layouit is simple with no blocks then running DCC vs straight DC is mearly the difference of what you plug into the track, the power pack directly for DC or the DCC box. but YOU CANNOT RUN DC AND DCC AT THE SAME TIME. DC uses varying voltage to control speed via power pack, DCC uses a constant continous voltage with onboard throttle control thru computerized control systems to control speed. you cant do both at the same time.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info! Fortunately my track plans consist of several folded dog bones within each other with no WYE or reverse loops but I currently do have blocks (which could be put together safely to run nothing but DCC and then separated to run pure DC (understanding that I can not do both at the same time!). 

Rich


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

When you set up your main power feed you will need to make it so the power supply can be swapped out (ie heavy duty plugs). DCC systems require their own special system but I'm sure the DCC guys can tell you more about that. 
I run DC and battery-RC together. 

-Brian


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have all power districts end in dual "stacking" banana plugs. (And these are rated over 10 amps).

I can quickly disconnect some districts and connect to DC, I am DCC normally.










Regards, Greg

p.s. Trying to make an "everything" layout is well nigh impossible, so it will cost you more and you will probably encounter some compromises, are you SURE you want to do this?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I set mine up to "run everything" as practical.

I use simple DC with 23 blocks each accessable by any of three separate "cabs" (throttles). The cabs simply plug into my control panel using 1/4" phone jacks (like on an electric guitar). A/C (for turnouts and such) is connected with an Amphenol connector and two 24-pin Cannon connectors link the panel to the track. If I wanted to run DCC (not that I do), I could simply unplug a 1/4" cab jack and plug in a DCC booster and switch those desired blocks for control by that cab.

One caveat is that some live steam and maybe even some R/C-battery stock may not have insulated wheels and this would preclude you from running these at the same time _over the same blocks_ as simple track power or DCC.

BTW, the panel has been modified since the picture to include two more turnouts, two more sections of track, a digital volt meter with direct readout of the power that goes to the rails (selectable to any of the three cabs), and three built in reversing units, one for each cab.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the tips. I do not need to make everything compatible with everything its just that I thought that if it were "easy" why not do it? So for my purposes I will set it up in blocks that can plug into various "modes", DC or DCC. As I move forward I will put up on this board what I am doing (see C&RR Railroad). 

Rich


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that part is easy if you do the semi-permanent type of connections like I do. Being able to electrically swap power to separate districts could be done with relays etc, but it would get wiring intensive. 

Please keep us apprised on your progress. 

Regards, Greg


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Let me shift your question a little -- I trust you have given thought about gradiaents, curves, and clearances? 

If you or friends run live steam, then you need a place off grade or with a pit, to avoid the "old man lying on the ground" Syndrome. 

And flatter grades, gentler cruves, etc. And if any run 7/8 scale, the equipment might be as much as 5 1/2 inches wide. And tall. Of course the O gauge and 16 mm guys will be asking why it isn't three rail! (A: Because the switches are a PITA!) 

Lots of possibilities out there -- suit yourself first. 

Regards, Mike


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Mike, 

I am not quite sure of what you mean by the "old man lying on the ground" Syndrome but I have given thought to the gradiaents, curves and clearances. If you look at my other post on the "C&RR Railway" dealing with the tunnel you will see that I have built the openings extra wide to accommodate larger trains. 

I suspect the "old man" is dealing with the discharges from live steam engines? If so, what would you recommend? 

Rich


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By rreiffer on 30 Jul 2009 02:51 PM 
Mike, 

I am not quite sure of what you mean by the "old man lying on the ground" Syndrome but I have given thought to the gradiaents, curves and clearances. If you look at my other post on the "C&RR Railway" dealing with the tunnel you will see that I have built the openings extra wide to accommodate larger trains. 

I suspect the "old man" is dealing with the discharges from live steam engines? If so, what would you recommend? 

Rich 
He's referring to the fact that live steam locomotives require more intimate attention than do sparkies, and you have to get up close and personal with them while you're prepping them and building up steam. People who are mainly into the live steam aspect of the hobby almost always have their trackage elevated to waist-high (and usually not much else besides track). And the majority of them are old(er) men, who would rather not have to lie on the ground.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

If the track is at ground level, you can dig a pit next to the steamup area so guys can put their legs down into it and sit on the edge while servicing their engines.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks all, 

Actually my plan is to bring the track up to waist height as it goes around the back of the garage as that is where I want to put my storage area as well. I will keep in mind the prep area for live steam as I build this railway. Fortuantely the line that runs behind the garage (See the C&RR Railroad) is the larger loop line. 

Rich


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I also run a mixture of track power using DCC/DC using the plugs as Greg uses to make the quick change between the two. i also operate live steam. My RR is totally ground level with 1% or less grades. Later RJD


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The above is one way to have multi-system interchangeability. It works for me.

Most of the time I run straight track power but if I want to run MTS/DCC a flip of the switch converts the layout to MTS/DCC for decoder operations or another switch changes t to DCS for MTH locos. 

The common denominator is that the layouts are wired specifically for analog track power operations (with manual switches controlling power on sidings etc.).

A friend runs track power AND MTS/DCC or track power AND DCS at the same time on the same tracks. Sometimes he controls the analog loco with the throttle (which also limits the speed of the MTS or DCS loco) and other times he controls the analog loco with an on-board controller (sometimes it is just a plain old Aristo TE full size receiver in a boxcar). I am not saying that I recommend this - just that it is being done (I would not have thought it was possible but he just went ahead and tried it).

Naturally battery power needs to be kept from feeding any power into or getting power from the tracks and live steam should not short out the rails, The Aristo Live Steam Mikado does not which means that heavyweights behind an Aristo Mike can be lit via track power.

Layouts normally are optimized for a specific type of motive power but while I prefer plain analog track power I have retained the ability to run analog, MTS, DCC, DCS, battery and live steam on my layouts according to what I want to do that particular day.

Actually a convenient solution is to have a dual mainline layout which allows one line to be available for visitors with whatever power they want to run and you would always have at least one free line to run your preferred power.

The way I look at it, a multi-use layout gives me the freedom to play with whatever I like but I also accept the fact that I will never have all the features of a layout dedicated to a specific operating system.

Just about anything can be done. The trick is to figure out what YOU ultimately want to do BEFORE you commit too much time, money and work which may lock you into a system that was someone else's favorite.

Most of all - HAVE FUN. The hobby is a journey. Sometimes it is years (if ever) before the true destination becomes clear. If you are not having fun and doing things in a way that makes YOU happy you will lose your interest in the hobby. 

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This is one way to provide analog and MTS/DCC compatibility with a dual mainline system.

In this case the mainline uses different power supplies to get 10 amps available for analog operations but MTS/DCC is limited to 5 amps.

The inside loop has 5 amps available but it only requires a single power supply which is shared by the analog or MTS Throttle or Central Station.

Crossovers between the two mainlines need to be fully insulated.

Jerry


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Sir - I have 0 gauge track - 32mm gauge [live-steam and battery power] in 16mm, and none of it is three-rail. AFAIK, and bearing in mind that 16mm is a mainly British pursuit, there is no such thing as three-rail track used for the 99% of 16mm lines here in UK. 

Since the breakdown of propulsion for 16mm appears to be 80% steam, 20% battery power, what is the point of three-rail centre live track?

As ever, I am prepared to be amazed by learning that after running 16mm for almost forty years, somebody IS running three-rail, centre pick-up track in 16mm scale.

What they are running on it is another matter entirely.









tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Jerry,

Thanks for the great visuals and ideas! They are well done.









I do believe the creation of these railroads are a journey and like any good journey you can have a lot of fun as long as you don't get derailed (pun intended







)

Rich


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Rich -- 

The old man lying on the ground is generally me -- I can "get down" with the best of them, I just can't get back up again. I like waist high track, so that the train is at eye level when I sit down with a cold beverage to watch my steamies. 

Tac -- 

Indeed it is -- strictly two rail. Unfortunately my promiscuous eye is drawn to small steamers in several scales and gauges. In answer to the "for all trains" question, I would want to be able to run on both 32 and 45 mm (for 20.3:1 on 45 mm, 19:1 on 16 mm, 7/8n2, 7/8n18 . . .). And have scenery and be at waist level . . . Enjoyment lives in the art of compromise. Now if I could build a decent brick wall . . . 

I joined the 16 Mil Assn just to be able to order the back issues. Not exactly the way to avoid temptation! Since I am more interested in the locos than the track, i am trying to find some way of having multiple gauges -- either three rail or else a separate, probably smaller, 32 mm loop. Yes, more of a racetrack than a railway , , , 

Right now, I steam at a friends and on a 45 mm portable track. If the rest is a fantasy life, it's quite enjoyable, and not nearly as expensvie as a real one. 

Best regards, Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By rreiffer on 31 Jul 2009 01:20 PM 
Jerry,

Thanks for the great visuals and ideas! They are well done.









I do believe the creation of these railroads are a journey and like any good journey you can have a lot of fun as long as you don't get derailed (pun intended







)

Rich


Hi Rich,

Thank you for your comments.

I have been using these switches for years now with no problems. In a few cases I have added warning lights to tell me which power system I am using so I don't forget to switch back to analog track power when I am done with other systems.

A simple way of looking at it is that the track is nothing more or less than two long uninsulated 24 volt conductors. My caboose was wired by MoPac for 12 volt DC lights but now some of those same wires are powering 125 volt AC computers. As long as the conductor size and insulation are appropriate for the task the conductors don't care what they conduct. Some of my LGB switches (turnouts) are powered via telephone wires.

Jerry


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

whoops


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

SVRR sells dual gauge track in code 250-which looks better with all trains. 
 http://www.svrronline.com/index.htm


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Just remember if you have added reverse loops then more is needed to wire the different systems. Later RJD


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