# 4-6-0 to 4-4-0 bash



## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

So I'm running down to the school machine shop in about 15 hours from the time of this post and figured I should bounce my ideas around here before I start the sawing.

What I have: two dead Bachmann 4-6-0s, 4th generation, bumblebee, with tenders, and Bachmann 2-8-0 Connie factory gearbox

What I'm gonna do: Make a new metal axle, drill holes in the wheels, make small plastic spacers, and loctite them (quartered, of course) onto the new axle, utilizing the 2-8-0 gearbox

And while I'm at it, I'm gonna saw out the middle and take out the blind axle.

Here's a quick Photoshop hack job; tell me how the proportions are, whether or not I should change it; I will. I might move the cylinders forward and make a new (shorter wheelbase) front truck while I'm at it, too.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I like the concept, but have a few aesthetic comments/suggestions. Just my $.02 worth, of course, and we may have very different ideas of what looks good. 

1. Keep the cylinders centered under the stack. With VERY few exceptions, US locos almost always had the stack and cylinders in line. 
2. Make sure the pilot truck is centered around the cylinders. Most were, and it looks nice IMHO. 
3. Your drivers are too far forward. I think the loco would look better if they were both moved back. Assuming that the firebox is the older between the frames style, there's not much room for a boiler there. If you bring the rear driver back so that it is more or less centered under the cab, I think it would give a longer boiler and a better proportioned engine. Also, the main rod has to run from the crosshead to one of the drivers. Usually, a 4-4-0 had the front driver driven, but you don't really have room for a good rod there. Moving it back a scale 3'-4' would change that as well. 
4. I'm not a fan of the shortened boiler and relocated cab - I think it makes the engine look too hunched up and chunky, especially for a narrow gauge engine (or are you going for a post 1900 standard gauge 1:29 model?). If you want to shorten it, I'd suggest bringing the cab forward a smidge, removing some of the prodigious firebox in the cab, and cutting off the extended smokebox.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

My only comment would be to shorten the smokebox rather than the boiler. The early Americans, at least, had smokeboxes that were barely long enough to mount the smoke stack. This makes the boiler look a lot longer also. I would take out everything from the door to just in front of the smoke stack, and push the headlight out on a bracket. 

Otherwise, the adjustments that Mr. Rickman suggested sound correct.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Oh jeez! I completely forgot about the stack/cylinder alignment--thank you SO much for pointing that out! 

Now thinking about moving the front axle back a bit and moving the cab forward to shorten it--it appears to be workable(I'm holding the loco in my hands right now). 

Also yeah, I'll probably cut the smokebox off around the rivet line (ahead of the stanchion holes) and mount the headlight on a bracket off the front. And I'll probably cut out enough of the boiler to give it a cab floor rather than a deckless cab. 

Again...THANK YOU! 

EDIT: How 'bout this?


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Robbie Hanson on 17 Jun 2011 01:26 PM 

EDIT: How 'bout this?


















This one looks very nice, Robbie......


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks Stan! 

And I should probably add that I'm likely going to battery power this--I have MANY bad experiences with vintage Bachmann plunger style pickups and considering that I've already battery-powered my old 4-6-0....time for more. 

And for kicks, here's the front truck on said 4-6-0, and probably similar to what I'm going to do with this: solid aluminum, with nylon bushings on the axles for insulation: 










I think I'll mill out the bottom of it, though, to make it look more airy. The heavy look seems to work on the 4-6-0, but I think it'd be too heavy looking on the 4-4-0.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

That last shot is looking good but something still looks slightly "off"......... I know! It's the stack! It's too small for that engine and it doesn't balance out proportionally. I would recommend replacing the Bachmann stack with an Accucraft C-19 stack. (You can order one from Caboose Hobbies.) Before you dismiss this suggestion, take a look at the AT&SF version of the Big Hauler as it has a larger diameter stack (not the one I would use but a good example of different sizes of stock Bachmann stacks.)

Here is a shot of an Annie with an Accucraft C-19 stack:


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 17 Jun 2011 03:00 PM 
That last shot is looking good but something still looks slightly "off"......... I know! It's the stack! It's too small for that engine and it doesn't balance out proportionally. I would recommend replacing the Bachmann stack with an Accucraft C-19 stack. (You can order one from Caboose Hobbies.) Before you dismiss this suggestion, take a look at the AT&SF version of the Big Hauler as it has a larger diameter stack (not the one I would use but a good example of different sizes of stock Bachmann stacks.)

Here is a shot of an Annie with an Accucraft C-19 stack:

[image deleted]
Steve, I like the idea, but I'm not sure what sort of detailing I'm going to do; at this point I may end up modifying a wood burner stack (I have several) into a diamond stack and use that. I want to get something running first, and then I'll decide where to go from there.

I may even end up turning my own stack out of aluminum if I need a straight stack though. And I'll keep in mind the ATSF stack (I've seen them, not a huge fan of the top lip, but it's an idea).

And I have a spare Bachmann K-27 spark arrestor, so I may end up using that too. The Yosemite Valley 4-4-0s had them and I like the look.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Posted By Robbie Hanson on 17 Jun 2011 01:26 P

How 'bout this?

I like that a lot! I also agree that a larger stack would look good, and help to balance out the cab Cut the smokebox right between the double row of rivets, in my opinion. You might make the steam chests a little smaller, as well. I now they're prototypical, but they've always looked funny to me. Also, it's probably too much work for the look, but some builders (especially of 4-4-0's) were careful to keep everything as symmetrical as possible, and the steam dome would look good centered between the drivers.


Here's another thought. I just did a quick photo-bash of the tender, and I like it. I shortened the frame until the trucks nearly touched, and then shortened the tank to be the same length (getting rid of the porches on each end). Even though the tender is shorter than stock, it looks a little stockier, and definitely more modern. I can e-mail you a photo, but don't have a way to post it here.


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Shop report: Gearbox is in and working fine--I still need to loctite the drivers to the axle, but it works well enough to spin the drivers in yet another 4-6-0. 

Frame is another story--while drilling the front axle hole, the frame (typical cheap Bachmann plastic) basically shattered. I cut some sheetmetal frame extensions for the area, but I'm not sure if it'll be strong enough for my tastes. Might be time to built a whole new engine here *wink wink* 

Smokebox is trimmed off right before the front set of rivets--Sorry Kenneth, but the handrail stanchion mount is right on the edge of them and I was afraid (first time actually cutting into a loco). I like it, though. 

Here's what I've got at the moment: 

















Sorry for the image quality, but it's 1:30 AM and I don't feel like digging up the DSLR, so it's done with the good ol' iPhone. 

Tomorrow perhaps I can hook up the power to the plug at the back and try to run it; or, smarter, I can loctite the wheels or something.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Man, that's gonna look good! I've always liked to see things altered away from "just another stock model" so that they have a little personality. This engine is gonna have personality in spades, and you'll be the only one with an engine like it. 

Is the stack now centered on the length of the smokebox? It sure looks good, in any case. 

If you really want to get technical, you should add some firebox detail between the drivers. In theory, the firebox would fit between the frames, centered between the drivers. That also means that the backhead should be ahead of the rear axle. Of course, not EVERY engine was built that way, but that's the most common design for an older 4-4-0. 

Whatever you do, keep sharing! I love the pics.


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## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

This is going to be great to see when finished- an exellent start so far! 
What kind of valve gear will it be? 

Alec


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Originally posted by DKRickman
Man, that's gonna look good! I've always liked to see things altered away from "just another stock model" so that they have a little personality. This engine is gonna have personality in spades, and you'll be the only one with an engine like it. 

Is the stack now centered on the length of the smokebox? It sure looks good, in any case. 

If you really want to get technical, you should add some firebox detail between the drivers. In theory, the firebox would fit between the frames, centered between the drivers. That also means that the backhead should be ahead of the rear axle. Of course, not EVERY engine was built that way, but that's the most common design for an older 4-4-0. 

Whatever you do, keep sharing! I love the pics. 



Stack is approximately centered on the smokebox; it might be an eighth of an inch off, but it's really close. I don't think it's enough to worry about. 

No idea honestly what I'll do with the backhead at this point. I may have to keep it back to allow room for the motor + weight inside the boiler; with where everything's positioned it's iffy that I can make it work otherwise. Bachmann geared their 4-4-0 off the front axle, but as mine's off the rear (I decided against powering it off the front one due to weaker axle mounting), I may not be able to do that. I feel as though I can make it semi plausible, though, at the least. 

@Alec: I'm probably either going to have nothing or do a basic mockup of Stephenson's. I still have to figure out what I'm doing with the bottom of the frame and the pilot, first. Don't worry, no Walschaerts--this has plastic rods at the moment: if I can make metal rods, I don't want to mess with making all the little parts, and if I keep plastic rods, I don't want to have to mess with the Bachmann Walschaerts!


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

It lives! I don't have connecting rods done yet, but I ran it back and forth a bit. I'm still working on getting a weight in it, so with one axle I wasn't pulling anything except my battery-equipped tender, but oh well. 

Things still to do: New front truck, weight, headlight (any suggestions? I need a bracket/light), stack, side rods, shortened pilot, boiler front trimmed so it'll fit. Getting there! 

Oh, and that's not counting a tender for the doggone thing


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

I LOVE IT!!!


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks Kenneth!  

Here's a look at how the gearbox and front axle worked out--the motor's up where the stock steel weight was, but I currently have that mounted a bit farther forward to compensate. The front axle mounts are just plate steel held in with superglue. Works well so far, and well, if it has issues, superglue is cheap.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

If you find you need something stronger than super glue, try 5 minute epoxy. You can use it much like super glue to join different materials, but it's much, MUCH stronger in situations where you need more shear strength or shock resistance.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

(any suggestions? I need a bracket/light 
There's an old New Bright or Scientific whatsit loco sitting on the shelf by my desk - it has a bracket and headlight and shouldn't be too expensive. Someone here has got to have a junk one. 
(Pic is shopped to get the Big Hauler aligned so you can see both headlights)


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Not a bad conversion idea, not bad at all. Since a the 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 were contemporaries, one would expect a "family" resemblence between two locos of the same builder. 

Just a silly thought, but how about using the extra parts to build a 4-8-0 Mastadon? 

Hmm, I might try your Photoshop method to see what one would look like... 

And, yes, there was at least one NG 4-8-0... 

_ http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn218/myork2005/480.jpg_ 

Robert


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi there: 

Headlamp: 

The nicest old time wood burner oil headlamp is by Hartland Locomotive Works: www.h-l-w.com 

Email then and they will put you in contact with Phil Jensen, the designer and parts supplier for HLW. 

The HLW oil headlamp is actually far nicer than the stock headlamp on the Bachmann 4-4-0 loco. 


Norman


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Robert, no such luck: I didn't trim the boiler or anything on this, so it's the same length as stock and I'd have to build a whole new superstructure. Also, both of my yellow 4-6-0s were dead and I don't have another motor/gearbox. I also appear to have lost the cab for the other loco...? Oh well, I have plenty of other motive power. 

Norman: Thanks! I was already considering that; my Kalamazoo 4-4-0 needs a motor, so I need to call Phil up. I'll probably order one. Any idea as to the cost? 

Currently trying to sort out what to do about connecting rods: I made some by trimming the two ends of the Bachmann ones and supergluing together with some sheet styrene as backing, but I have some rod bind due to unequal lengths. Any idea as to some better rods for this? I'm not entirely thrilled with glued Bachmann rods... 

@Pete: I'm still undecided on wood burner vs coal burner. Is the headlight bracket on the New Bright loco separate or one piece with the headlight?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

There used to be an article in the archives about building "fenders" for the drivers on the Bachmann _Spectrum _4-4-0. Including them in the bash would definitely add to the detail!


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Notice anything different? 

Steve, I'm likely making it a more modern prototype, or at least an older one updated; I'm unsure how fenders would look. We'll see; I still need to get a tender together somehow and come up with an R/C system and a battery.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I made some by trimming the two ends of the Bachmann ones and supergluing together with some sheet styrene as backing, but I have some rod bind due to unequal lengths. Any idea as to some better rods for this? I'm not entirely thrilled with glued Bachmann rods... 
The Bachmann rods fit in rectangular brass tube from your local K&S display - 3/16 x 3/32 (I think.) Cut them in half, slide the ends into the tube and drill through at the right location for the length you need. I put a small screw through the hole, but any pin will do. 
Here's part of my 2-8-0:


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