# aristo replacement switch frogs



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Some of you may not know this--if you have an Aristo "wide radius" switch (not the number 6, but the one they call the "wide radius" which is about a 10 foot radius curve) you have probably had trouble wth the frog. Its too high above the rialhead and the flangeways are too shallow. Its fixable, but aristo has recognized the problem and now sells a replacement plastic frog for $1. It's a drop inreplacement and it's much much much better. The flangeways are deeper and the frog is just abot flush with the railhead, only very very slightly above it, maybe .5 mm. I installed one and it works like a charm--no bumping over the switch


Although the problem with the frog had been noted and dealth with for some time, I think it's reasonable to credit Greg Elmassian and RJ DeBerg for pointing this out to aristo, and to credit Aristo for making a retrofit. There are stil other little issues with this swith but this solves a major problem


You can buy the frogs via aristo's online store on their website. I'm not sure if other retailers have them


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's nice to see it come to fruition. Lewis contacted me some time ago about what was wrong. 

Is the top of the frog now level with the rails? The old frog was about 1/16" taller than the rails and caused a bump. (There was a very good historical reason for this). 

Also, if you have the ability, could you measure the depth of the frog flangeway? 

I need to see if I should swap mine out, or modify the existing ones. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. now I'll have to work on Lewis on the guard rail flangeway width!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, I posted a response over at LSC. I measured the flangeway depth at 1/8, exactly, and I think the top of the frog is very close to flush, maybe .5mm above, so small that I don't trust my measurement because the user error might be greater than the distance


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info lownote

Well I just ordered 4 frogs for my SS wide radius switches. 

$4.00 plus $7.40 for shipping that the discription states, "SHIPPING CHARGES WILL BE ELIMINATED UPON INVOICING" 

Considering this should be a warranty replacement, I can only hope the $7.40 is eliminated.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, thanks for the "heads up!" It is definitely good news to see that Aristo has acknowledged the problem and has actually done something to fix it that doesn't cost an arm and a leg!


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 01/21/2009 10:10 AM
snip - "wide radius" which is about a 10 foot radius curve) - snip



I beleave the _wide radius_ switchs are 5' radius (10' dia.}...aren't they? or are they something new?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dean you are correct, just a typo... many of us that came from other scales keep tripping on radius vs diameter. 

Mike: (It's Mike right?) thanks for the feedback, seems that Aristo also lowered the top of the frog too, I was after them about that, since it seems that it's no longer needed (The idea was to lift the sliders on LGB locos up above the rails so they could not short the 2 rails of opposite polarity just after the frog point)... 

Nowadays, people with sliders know of those dangers... and people are slowly getting rid of them, following Aristo's lead, or adjusting them so this does not happen. 

Regards, Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes Thanks Greg and all. I had routered mine deeper with a dremel. That was a huge improvement and they don't sit that high that they effect operation for me. I was frustrated at first and bought two wye switches for the mainline because the #6 ss were out of my price range at the time. I will upgrade the main down the road and move the wides to yards. Mr. Polk had suggested the larger switches would be better and they are, so a big Thanks to Aristo for the value of this ss track and the upgrades! Joe


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2009)

does anybody know, where to find a picture of these replacement frogs? 
i would like to have a look if they might lend themselves to be used for scrapbuilt switches.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Kormsen: Go to the Aristo sit there are photo's posted there. I just got 6 of them today and installed one to see how the line up. Looks like the wing rails and frog are now flush which also helps a bunch. Next thing they need to do is correct the guardrail guard check and guardface, as the gap is to wide. I do not know if this will be addressed when they make thye next run of turnouts. Later RJD


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

RJD, thank you.


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

So RJ, were those the correct frogs for your turnouts?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep Barry and thanks for the frogs. I'm still waiting on mine. Took maybe 5 min to install. Sure makes for a smoother ride over the turnout. Later RJD


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I recieved my 4 replacement frogs from Aristo Craft today and what I recieved was no better thasn what I already had. 

The flange depth is maybe 3.5 mm deep while the original frogs are 3 mm deep. The top of the rail and frogs are pretty much level with each other. 

But, my Bachmann Santa Fe Bobber Caboose and LGB 2-4-0 Steam Engine both bottom out on the wheel flanges as they travel through the frog. The flange ways need to be another mm deeper as the wheels raise a good .5 mm off the top of the rail/frog as it traverses through the frog. 

I bought my SS Wide Radius switches maybe 6 months ago. I ordered the frogs last week. 

Thankfully, I didn't waste my time changing all four frogs. 

I'll get the dremel out and fix the frogs myself.


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I just received 6 #6 turnouts and they got the frogs right on them. I wonder why they couldn't learn from that. Also the frogs are metal and they match the rail very well. Hmm, classic example of the right hand not talking to the left??/ Who knows but I feel for you guys that have the messed up ones. Also I have a Wye switch and it has the same frog as the #6's have. It is great. I yhink Rivette has the right idea of just using his Dremel to make it right. I know!!! Ya paid for it and it should be right.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You might want to visit my page on track and wheel standards:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/track-mainmenu-93/track-and-wheel-standards-mainmenu-95*

The flangeway depth at the frog is not specified by G1MRA and the NMRA standard is minimum 3 mm.

You have to take a "stand" here. In prototype switches (most), the flange does not touch the bottom of the flangeway.


In a WR switch, it's possible to make this work. The frog geometry is ok and if you fix the guardrail flangeway width, then you can make the frog flangeway as deep as you want, and everything will work like a prototype.

But, over the years, many manufacturers have make "flange bearing" frogs. There are advantages to this in the model industry, mainly that the tolerances needed may make frogs where the wheels can drop into the frog, or other bad stuff happens.


Case in point, Barry, you need to look carefully at your trains going through those #6's ... you will see that the wheel will actually drop into the frog a bit. Have RJ show you, and you will see wear on the frog point because of this.

This is because the "throat" of the frog had to be made non-scale to accomodate the back to back tolerances and flange width tolerances used on model trains. 


It's a tough call.

Personally, I will be adopting a standard for flange diameter on my wheels, and it will be under 3mm ! I'm trying to follow the NMRA standards as much as possible because they actually work together. G1MRA seems too sloppy for me, and the MOROP stuff is garbage in my opinion, it's just way too lax in specifications... but these are my opinions, might not be the best for all. It's going to be more work, but when I at least did the basic stuff of back to back and guardrail widths and flangeway depths, my ability to run long trains without derailments improved greatly.


I went from 7 car trains to 40 cars. So I'm convinced I went in the right direction.

Regards, Greg


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

The wheel tolerances are very sloppy in G scale. I have been doing some machining for RJ on his Aristo drive wheels both on the back flange spacing and the outside flange taper. It should be interesting. 

Greg, have you got a lathe/mill yet??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, drat! I need one, because I want to pick that contour. The problem is what I want is about $2,500. Of course, if I remember right you have a doggone Bridgeport! 

Regards, Greg


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I would like to have a Bridgeport but, alas, I have a 12X39 lathe and 9X48 mill both made off shore. I bought them about 10-12 yrs ago. If I was buying today I would still buy offshore probably a Grizzly product. I got to get those #6 turnoouts prepped and caulked. The joiners are going to Cale and then I have the one to install on the pool loop.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

put thin pieces of plastic between the frog and the adjoining rails. Expansion can cause these to touch and short. I use pieces cut from the credit cards that come in the mail. I think this is on my web site under track...aristo...#6 switches..... 

I may ask some more advice on the lathe and mill in the near future. 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

ok, I worked on my switches today. 

I decided to work on one of the old frogs to get the caboose to run through smoothly. After getting the switch with the old frog working smooth, I took the dremel to a switch with a new frog. While the new frog does need some work, it doesn't need near as much removal of material as the old frogs. The new frogs still need the ramp cut down on the bottom of the "Y" side of the frog as the flange was hitting the square end of the ramp. I also had to file the top of the frog slightly to match the top of the metal rail head. 

So, I went ahead and changed the frogs on the other two switches. 

Now the LGB 2-4-0 Steam Loco pulloing 14 2 bay coal hoppers and a bobber caboose can be run wide open through all the switches with out so much as a shimmer. Before the switches were fixed, going anything faster than 1/2 throttle would knock the front set of drivers off the track. The caboose doesn't even know it has went through a switch. 

Not a 100% fix, but close to a 75% fix. 

In the end, the new frogs were worth the 4 bucks. 

Randy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Randy, if the depth of these is 3mm, how deep did you wind up after cutting the flangeways down? 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I lowered the flangeway depth about a 1/2 mm. 

But the thing I did that helped the most was grinding the single ramp down on the frog. The new ramp is thinner than the original but the wheel flanges still hit the front square edge. I ground the tip down to a point and then ground the ramp so the angle wasn't as steep. 

Understand, I was only having a problem with my LGB 2-4-0 and two Bachmann Cabooses. I measured the flanges on a USA Box car at 3mm while the Bachmann Caboose had flanges that are 4mm from wheel flat surface to edge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ouch! them's some BIG flanges my boy! 

Time to chuck them up in a drill and turn them down with a file. That's just way too big! 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

If it were only the caboose plastic wheels, I would, but I'm not going to mess with the drivers on the steam engine. 

Something interesting is that the other Bachmann cars I have don't have such big flanges 

Randy


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