# lubricants for axles and side rods?



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I have found wear on a couple of my high use locomotive axles to the point where the axles needed replacing. I would love to avoid that in the future.

I have been using 3in1 oil. it tends to collect dirt which compounds the wear. Is there a better material? 

how about teflon dry lube? such as one with the 3in1 name on it? any one have Spencerian with this type of stuff?







or


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

If you go to your local bicycle shop they should have a few dry lube to choose from.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

with all the moisture around the loco, I would think dry lubes would cake up and not be good.

A real heavy oil would be my choice and routine "cleaning" with some mild solvent and reapplication.

I tried dry lubes and any moisture made them cake and then still I got grit and moisture.

Greg


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Hans from Aster USA told me I should be using 90w gear oil for the Challenger, especially when pulling a heavy load. He says the 90w tends to stick a little better to the rods and valve gear as they are flying all about.
You are correct about the lube picking up grit, much easier to pick up grit on a ground level layout (such as my own). I didn't used to trim back the ground covers that would encroach on the track and brush on the loco and rolling stock. Of course the rain makes the dirt / sand bounce up onto the ground cover and it lays in wait for an unsuspecting oil covered loco. I use a string trimmer before every live steam run on the ground layout.
I've since replaced the drive pins and bushings on my C-16 and Frank S.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric,

This is what I use. It was recommended several years ago on another forum. The recommendation was based on tests to see which oil provided the best axle bearing lubrication for our little locos. http://www.supco.com/web/supco_live/products/MO98.html.

Steve Shyvers


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using the Zoom Spout turbine oil for years, and haven't noticed any problems with axle wear on any of my locomotives. Recently I bought some lubricating oil from The Train Department in the little needle spout bottle. It's noticeably thicker, green-colored oil, which seems to do a better job of staying where it's needed instead of dripping everywhere, and of course the needle spout makes applying the oil more precise too. I've only steamed with this stuff a couple of times now. I'm liking it so far, and I trust Jason to sell a quality product, but I guess the long term results for remain to be seen for me and my locomotives.


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

I've always felt that we in live steam over lubricate our little beasties and this flood of oil picks up dirt/grit. Lubing before every run is too much. I use steam oil to lubricate wheels and valve gear. I only lubricate every second run so as to not have oil all over the running gear.

Once a year I put my locos in a pan of mineral spirits and brush the spirit over the running gear so that the old oil and grit are washed away. Try it and see the amount of grit that comes off the running gear. Re-lube and away you go.

My .02 cents.

Mike McCormack

mocrownsteam
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Roundhouse recommends automotive motor oil.

I don't have any first-hand experience, yet.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Many years ago, when I knew where to take oil out, and where to put oil in, on my car, I used to keep the 'empty' oil containers and then turn them upside down and drain the oil to keep for my locos.
Mainly 20-50 grade, and it seems to be doing just fine on my locos.
I haven't noticed any problems with worn out parts, but then I haven't really looked, but nothing bad seems to have happened over the last forty years or so.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
p.s. I would add that it is just as much to do with the materials used on the locos that will cause the wear.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Break Free gun lubricant. " for rapid fire" (hi heat) "and stainless steel fire arms" 
Perfect for our application.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Motor oil is too thin, 20 or 30 weight... 80 to 90 weight heavy gear oil stays put and works well.

Greg


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, gear oil by design in very "sticky" and collects LOTS of dust and dirt. (It also smells bad and attracrats bees.)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, sticky is good, you want a little bit but for it to hang in there. You will have to periodically clean ANY oil off to wash out dust and grit.

I'm more concerned with wearing out bearing surfaces than occasional cleaning.

Greg


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I had that problem with my C16. Here is my solution http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/28510-overhaul-c16.html
I also did this to a friends C19. Both now run very well.


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Bachmann has several lubricants for steam locomotives.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Folks, I simply use steam oil, the same stuff that goes into the lubricator... best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## ernienoa3 (Nov 23, 2012)

I use Pin Bearing and Journal oil from Green Velvet. Very sticky and stays were you put it not on the track.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Very useful and varied information from those that own and regularly run Live Steam locomotives. The layouts may be the same, but the exposure to heat, water and steam is more severe on LS than electrics, there fore would require a different lubricant. 
Along the same lines, when I first got into LS Jason advised me to coat the piston and valve rods with a bit of Steam Oil before and during a long run so the seals are lubricated from both sides. I have religiously done it since with no seal failures.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I have been using 3in1 oil.


The red can is a general purpose oil for freeing up rusty bolts. You should be using the blue can "turbine" oil, sold for lubricating fan motors, etc. Like myself and Richard:


> I've been using the Zoom Spout turbine oil


but I can see that auto oil would be a good alternative. Lots of rotating parts in an auto engine.


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

Transmission fluid is the slipperiest stuff used in a car, Very high quality oil.

dave


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using for many years the Green Velvet PB&J 220 and its also what I sell in a needle oiler and 8oz bottle. In the past I've used the turbine oil and 3/1 but they all flow all over and caused more wear then good never mind having to constantly clean the treads and wheels from the oil running all over everything. I also use steam oil to lubricate the crosshead and piston/valve rods as they have the higher heat being attached to the cylinders.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> I've been using for many years the Green Velvet PB&J 220 and its also what I sell in a needle oiler and 8oz bottle. In the past I've used the turbine oil and 3/1 but they all flow all over and caused more wear then good never mind having to constantly clean the treads and wheels from the oil running all over everything. I also use steam oil to lubricate the crosshead and piston/valve rods as they have the higher heat being attached to the cylinders.


hee hee... that "PB&J" name has always made me chuckle... I remember an old "Dennis the Menace" comic where Dennis is down on the ground with his Lil' red wagon upside-down with one wheel off. In front of him is a small jar and lid to the side. He has some goopy stuff on one hand and is looking up at an adult standing over him. The caption is something like:

"I always grease my wheels with peanut butter."

I have often wondered what kind of lubricant Peanut Butter would be! Not that I am recommending anybody to try it.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Semper's using peanut butter for oil?

What's he doing with the jelly?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yea I know, couldn't he call it Journal, Pin & Bearing oil? 

Though in all seriousness this is the only oil that the ride on guys that I know use. I waiting for someone to come out again and say to use bar oil or marvel mystery oil or something along those lines.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Lots of good info here!!!!!

I think I'll have to get some pb&j....I'll be placing an order Jay...need some other stuff too.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Break Free gun lubricant. " for rapid fire" (hi heat) "and stainless steel fire arms"
> Perfect for our application.


It is actually called BREAK FREE clp. Amazing stuff. The CLP stands for "Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative." Back in the 70's the U.S. military called for a new "Do all" product for weapons. I do not remember the company that came up with it but the DOD has been using it ever since. When it was first released it was a little thicker. After about 10 years the specs. changed for a thinner product. Not many people realize how good this stuff is for our small loco's.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff & Steve, did some research on the Break Free CLP. Very impressive stuff. Just ordered a bottle from Amazon, should have it Friday, Thank You


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It looks like the pre-1990's product was heavier bodied and smelled better, the change in formulation appears to make it much "thinner".... good for guns, but I would think heavier bodied is better for the looser fit of siderods and running gear.

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, and you have personal knowledge of the product? Not to get personal, but how many and how long have you been running live steamers?
Between the experience of two well known LS'ers and my own research of the product I think I'd rather go with that than 
QUOTE "it looks like", "appears" and "I would think".


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Why yes I do Nick, and I had some of the pre-1990's stuff also. Reading the reviews of the product, many long time users were disappointed with the new formulation. I think that this thread has also established that the higher viscosity lubricants are favored.

But, to each their own, there are people who have used low viscosity lubricants without a lot of wear.

My take is that the big variable here is the dirt/grit/dust that the locos have been exposed to is the largest variable.

By the way, the axles and side rods on large scale locos are really the same between sparkies and live steam.

Early on I espoused lightweight oil because of the perceived "gunk factor" of heavier oils (first experience was the running gear of many Bachmann locos), but then I found the lightweight oils seemed to "dry out", and that heavier oils protected better.

I migrated to the heavier oils and just "cleaned" the moving parts more often and inspected for dirt.

So, my experience is only based on about 20 years... so not to get personal Nick, you been running trains outdoors for 20 years? Have you experimented with about 40 lubricants. Just because I don't own live steamers now does not mean I don't have experience that counts.

Greg


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

One lubricant which might be worth trying is TW25B from Mil-Comm Products. I say this based on my 30 years in aerospace engineering as the project engineer for the turreted gun system used on the AH-1 Cobra helicopters. The three gun bolts which slide back and forth on tracks on the Gatling gun rotor had to be well lubricated to keep them from binding and jamming. Sadly, in severe dessert sand and dust conditions, the sand and dust would mix in with the grease and form a sludge which would badly wear the parts and eventually jam them. Some enterprising Marines discovered TW25B and bought some out of their own pockets. It's Teflon-based and can be applied in a very fine film which will not attract or hold sand and dust. TW25B worked very well and the military eventually approved its use in severe sand and dust environments.

Because there has been discussion in this thread about wear from grit trapped in lubricants, it brought TW25B to mind.

I've not yet tried using it on a loco, but think there may be some possibility of success. It will be several months before we have warm enough weather to get out steaming and give it a try. I would be inclined to use it on axles, valve gear eccentrics and valve gear parts. I'm inclined to use conventional heavy oil on the piston shaft and cross head guides.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, If higher viscosity oils were better than lower viscosity oils with properties that have coating and adherence, then gear oil would be the best, but since it is too thick to penetrate and coat close tolerances it is useless. 

I've been running inside for over 40 years and outside for 10 years and have tried many lubricants, All have had their plus and minus properties, 

And YES, in my opinion, since you don't own and regularly run live steamers your OPINION doesn't come close to the experience of regular steamers. As I previously stated, live steamers are subject to water, steam and heat as well as just wear, so there is only a mild comparison between LS and Electrics. 

I'm sure you will have a lengthly response, which I will respond to when I get back home from work.

Lyn, please keep us posted on your experience with it, thank you. And I will continue to use steam lube on the piston and valve rods.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I must say that I have enjoyed the dialog on this issue. 

As a result, I have ordered two products through Amazon:

Break-free CLP
Break-Free Collector

The MSDS sheet indicates CLP contains PAOs (polyalphaolefins - synthetic oils) and Hydrotreated light paraffinic petroleum distillates (oil with paraffinic (mineral oil) content)

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00029/77486207-20100925.PDF

Anyhow, supposedly it:

Penetrates and spreads along metal surfaces into every pit and crevice to undercut contamination and lift residue away where it can be removed.
Long-lasting lubricating film dramatically reduces adhesion of sand, grit or other abrasives which cause wear and failure.
Corrosion inhibitors prevent the formation of rust while Break-Free's unique boundary film protects metal surfaces from moisture and other contaminants.
Specially formulated synthetic oils won't lose viscosity, dry out or stiffen up in extreme environments - such as cold, heat, dust, dirt, humidity and even salt air - keeping equipment in ready condition for months at a time.
It has been proven to perform in temperatures ranging from -65F to +475F and after saltwater immersion

How bad can it be?

The "Collector" version appears to be higher viscosity and meant for use when one puts firearms into storage, so to be used for lay-up periods perhaps in our case. The info on collector indicates it is 100% synthetic oil and contains no mineral oil.

There are over 300 reviews @ Amazon for the CLP version and they are pretty much all positive. Positive reviews for Collector as well.

My mini lathe and milling machines stand idle for longish periods of time and I figure these products will be good protectants for the Chinese cast iron and steel as well.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe,

I use CLP for slides and uppers on my firearms. its a good capillary oil for motion. One thing I do notice is that it is a runny oil and much more comes out then you need from its container, its useless for applying you need a good fine tip needle applicator. 

Ill continue to use it but I will always use PJB from green velvet for my steamers. Its designed for non circulating lubrication and proven for 14 years now and I've been using it now since 2008.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick, I won't have a lengthy response, you have me confused with Kevin.

I don't find that all the valve gear has close tolerances, and I thought this thread was on valve gear and axles.

I don't find thin lubricants good for the journal type of axle bearings, but if your valve gear has close tolerances, yes a thinner oil would be good. But I have found that the "heavy gear oil" sold by various supply houses does indeed penetrate well.

But you have been running steam much longer than I have and do have superior experience there, although I'm not convinced that a thin lubricant withstands heat, water and steam better than a thick one.

Hopefully that was not too long of a response, and less combative than you expected.

Regards, Greg


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Keep in mind that the rods and valve gear on a live steamer generally have closer tolerances than those on a sparky, and have greater forces acting on them, since they are actually doing the work. On a sparky they just have to go around and look nice and not bind up. Then there's the heat factor...


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

In my LS box I carry 4 hypodermic's. One large one for water (comes with all Accucraft loco's) and three small ones. One for sucking out the lubricator, one to apply steam oil to the cylinder and valve rods and another one to apply small amounts of lubricating oil on the parts that need them. The smaller are the ones that come with the printer ink recharge kits. The long metal tips help get into tight spaces so the oil only goes where I want it. And old T shirt rags to clean up when I slip and over oil something.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used Break Free CLP since it was first introduced in the 70's. The original formulation could get a little gummy in cold weather, but still worked the same. 

The way we discovered how it worked for live steam was that my good friend John F. had just received his new Catatonk Climax. It was so tight that you could barely move anything on it. He had already tried what ever our oil of choice was back then, (Do not remember what it was) and it did nothing. I ran inside, grabbed my bottle of Break Free CLP (newer formulation), we lubed her up and off she went around my track. 

You have to understand that in the firearm world a new "Super Oil" comes out about every 2 -3 years since Break Free was introduced. Names such as Tetra oil, Militec, Slip 2000, FP10, Weapon Shield, Rem oil, Rand oil, and now even Frog lube all stake their claims to be the best. I have tried just about every one of them. 

With some of these the metal even needs to be prepped before us. While I have found that some of these may do one singular thing better then Break Free CLP, *IMHO *I wish I had saved all that money and just stuck with the Break Free CLP because *overall* I still think it is the best. I could have bought another Loco with that $.

But as we all know, many things will work on our Locos. You could even use bacon grease (that sure would smell good) if that makes you feel good. I am just giving you my experiences. Some of the best debates around here over the years have always been about Steam oil, gear oil, and what type of water to use. I always look forward to them.

If I could just get some of Zubi's water, all would be good.


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## Ger  (Jan 13, 2009)

Eric Schade believes his wear problems are due to using the incorrect oil. However, as David Leech stated, it may be the materials used that caused the wear. Was the bearing or the axle worn?

One manufacture advertises " Museum Quality, Brass Models". I have no clue as to what a museum quality locomotive is or if I need one. I buy and assemble engines to run on a outdoor track. As to the "all brass models", if they are using brass for bearings and axles these will quickly wear out. Brass is not a good bearing material. A cast bronze or phosphor bronze bearing is required for long life.

I have a lathe and a milling machine which both have gears enclosed in a oil bath.Many years ago, I did some research on the best oil to use. As with this thread, there was a lot of disagreement. Someone questioned if motor oil was a good choice. Someone replied that motor oil has additives such as detergents which is not good for "red metal" alloys, (bronze). The detergent has a leaching effect. The will wash away some of the alloying materials, (tin, lead, zinc). 

I also found comments on using a heaver oil verses a light oil for moving parts and bearings. Someone wrote "heaver weight oils are not better then lighter weight oils as heaver oils stick to parts longer which degrades the oil faster than lighter oil. A lighter oil will flow better and flush out the old dirty oil where the thicker oil will retain the dirt and grit". I agree with this.

I use Mobil Velocite Oil No 10. This a high quality spindle oil, ISO VG 22, close to SAE 10w. Available from MSC in gallon size only. I have used this oil for years in my lathe, mill and steam engines.

Aster recommends using a "light machine oil" on moving parts, ( but NOT in the cylinders) I thing the Mobile No 10 meets this requirement. I have not found any wear on my equipment or engines.

Everyone has their own best oil as this thread has shown. 

It appears that we all agree on one thing. Just about any oil is better than none at all!

One additional tip, Hoppe's No 9 works very good to remove dried oil from metal.


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Regarding use of Hoppe's products...be very careful NOT to use the copper cleaning version of this...would be detrimental to bronze bearings and other copper bearing parts on the loco.

On a broader note, it occurs to me that we could garner some very important data from this discussion...provided folks are willing to discuss their "failures"....

In reality, if the proper lubricant is used on properly made bearing surfaces, there is no perceptible wear on the metal surfaces...this is because the lubricant provides a floating surface, remaining between the two metal surfaces This is the principle behind babbit bearings...certainly the babbit material is soft compared to other materials...yet it does not wear because the proper lubricant is in place.

Here is the part where I'd like to hear of failures....I'd like to hear postings from folks that have had extreme wear on their live steam locomotive...say for the axles and their bearings, or extreme wear for the valve gear. For the purposes of this question, we should limit answers to those who have had the wear while using one particular lubricant during the time that the wear occurred...this way we could dispense with discussion and evaluate actual results. While not exactly scientific, the anecdotal evidence provided by use of a particular substance that did not provide proper lubrication would be enough for me to avoid use of that product on my engines.

To make the discussion somewhat scientific, we should limit to folks that for the most part used one type of lubricant during the timeframe of the wear...it does no good to say "I got extreme wear" and then follow with "I used 5 different lubricants"....not much to be learned from that.

For instance, if someone told me that they used only WD-40 for lubricating their live steam locomotive axle bearings, and then they experienced extreme wear, then that would tell me to not use WD-40....I use this example as some years ago I ran into a fellow who had that exact experience. Now I would think that most of us know that WD-40 is NOT a proper lubricant and that the extreme wear would have been predictable, but it is just an example for clarification. More important to me is a comparison and discovery of failures resulting from what appear to be proper lubricants....

OK, who will first to tell of their failed lubricant experiences?.....


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The wear has been in the stainless steel axles...both my own build and Accucraft products. riding in brass or bronze with little wear measured in the bearings, only the axles and pins. the axle shown above was stainless steel and has been replaced with tool steel.

My thought was that some less wet or sticky oils such as "dry" lubricants wouldn't attract dirt which is abrasive. I am listening! sounds like the consensus is that heavier thicker oils are better? perhaps they do not flush the dirt into the bearings?


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric - I bet if you used a Moly oil that normal is for spring powered air rifles, it might help the axle wear. Basically those "oils" have suspended in them Molybdenum dioxide that coats the metal with a super slippery film. The oil is actually designed to evaporate, leaving only the Moly film. 
They work spectacularly well in recoilless air rifles, and I wouldn't be surprised if they helps with axle wear.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Part of the issue is that Eric runs on the ground. All the dirt is getting impregnated into the brass and bronze bushing. That is what is wearing out the axle I'd think. Something that I do is thoroughly clean the chassis of all my locos after so much running. It gets all the dirt, oil and grime off and start fresh. I use just dawn dish detergent, some parts cleaning brushes and a paint brush with lots of hot water and cleaned in the sink usually. The most runtime is on my K28 and the rods and axles have no noticeable slop anymore then when it was new. 

I know Eric runs a lot more then many and bring on the ground is it open to a lot more then running on elevated tracks most of the time.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I think J's cleaning procedure is also advisable for us that are changing lubricants, gives the new one a good start rather than just adding it on top of old stuff.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

There is little doubt that I need to clean more and better. I do occasionally flush the works with paint thinner...mineral spirits then re-oil. I have tried the hot water trick..but it messed with the radio gear.

Speaking of dirt and oil you should have seen the gunk on the rear truck on WW&F #10! It had been in service for several years without service. It had a layer of pounds of oil soaked dirt all over it. It also had some wear on the pin holding the swing links.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Allman said:


> Eric - I bet if you used a Moly oil that normal is for spring powered air rifles, it might help the axle wear. Basically those "oils" have suspended in them Molybdenum dioxide that coats the metal with a super slippery film. The oil is actually designed to evaporate, leaving only the Moly film.
> They work spectacularly well in recoilless air rifles, and I wouldn't be surprised if they helps with axle wear.



John, that is a good idea. Our steam group runs most of the time on elevated tracks and dirt and grime is just about a non issue. I am familiar with the type of oil that you are referring to and it sure would be worth a try where dirt and grime are a issue.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Folks;

I know first hand that Molybdenum based oils work - even on the real thing! In 1975, the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern Railroad renewed the left-front driver bearing on Porter number 2, a 45 ton 0-4-0 saddle tanker. This locomotive had once been dropped by the Reading RR steam shop during a heavy servicing. (The locomotive was originally the plant switcher for a Colorado Coal & Iron foundry in Birdsboro, PA.) The fall caused a kink in #2's frame that made the left-front drive axle tend to run hot.

The engine crew was having to drop the packing box on that left-front driver after every day of operation, because Babbitt (a soft, low melt metal used in bearings) was getting into the packing and ruining its ability to lubricate. Changing out the packing is a nasty job that involves crawling between the boiler and the frame, then lying on the oily ground to drop the packing box and hand it out to the other crew member. Then the "lucky" guy who had to be down there got to wait until the repacked packing box was returned, so he could reinstall it. Since I was the more skinny engineman back then, I got the dirty job. 

Then one of the volunteers remembered there was an entire drum of Molybdenum based oil in the lubrication storage shed. We changed out the fouled packing box one last time and switched to using theMolybdenum oil exclusively for that bearing. The Molybdenum oil allowed the Babbitt to wear without melting, and the drive wheel hub stayed cool.

Boring story, but maybe it helps,
David Meashey


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, that was a great story. I always like hearing from anyone that worked on a real Steamer.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I decided to use Eric's idea of mineral spirits instead of water. 
I'm using a roasting pan and a squeeze bottle which has a fairly fine tip to direct the fluid where I want it. Surprised at what's being flushed out. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve - I had a good idea? Quick, somebody tell my son. He wont believe it!


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John, I have two Daughters. I understand.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I know this may put me in a bad light, but while flushing my locomotives of the previous lubricants I washed out some blades of grass that had gotten entangled in the crank shaft of my first two cylinder Shay from my ground layout. Since then I have been taking them down, flushing and re-applying lubricant to the moving parts. On other loco's I've seen grit being flushed from the running gear using the mineral sprites. 
a good winter project if you have flow through ventilation. I know I'm having fun. LG


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Can anyone suggest a Molybdenum based oil for use on locomotives? All I find are auto engine motor oil, oil additives, grease and dry lubes. 
Thanks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Amsoil now has moly in it, and if you google a bit you can find various other oils.

No direct experience with using on trains, but sounds like a good experiment.

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had very good experience and used Amsoil up to a few years ago when I had two trucks on the road doing about 75Kmi/year. Their dual filter system is fantastic, right down to 1 micron of filtration. And only sent a sample of oil about every 6K miles to their lab for analysis. The bulk of the oil lasted in excess of 50K miles. 

Having said that. What I used is designed for use as an automotive lubricant, the label spells that out, to operate at those temperatures, so I don't really know how it will perform as a LS lubricant. The side rods don't get as hot any automotive use. Also don't know how it would react with steam or water since neither conditions exist in the crank case or gear case of an auto/truck or bike engine, unless of course of a catastrophic failure. And their web site doesn't show lubricants for other than that use that I was able to find. 

Greg: As Chris said, other than automotive use. I also Googled Molybdenum oils and was only able to find automotive lubricants that have it, since it really is a metal or compound of the metal in suspension. If you could be more specific of lubricants you found I'm sure we'd all appreciate it, and I for one would be willing to try it.

I also go back to the days when Graphite was added to automotive lubricants as an enhancement.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will try to find some, it does sound interesting. In terms of the temperature, having a wider temperature operating range is a plus, it does not detract from the use in a narrower temp range... what it mainly means is less viscosity change with temp and that the additives can handle the higher temps.

I would think that this would work well, since it's a 5w oil if I remember right (yeah I know it's multigrade, but multigrade really says how well it holds it's viscosity at higher temps basically).

Like I said, sounds interesting, and wonder how much "plating effect" could be observed, if at all.

Regards, Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I am going to wait till you find what your are looking for. But once again, "it sounds interesting" and "I think" aren't really resounding confirmations of facts. 
As I've told my son, the internet is the greatest invention since the printing press for the distribution of information. If it is out there, I'm sure it can be found 
Thank you for your patience.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Like Nick Jr said, "internet is the greatest invention since..."
After exhausting considerable net time and not finding anything that could be used on our steamers I posted the question since I always assume I definitely do not have nor necessarily have found all the answers. 

As Nick confirmed, the net yielded no Moly product that could be used on our live steamers. The net did yield a number of technical articles, papers and user forum threads that described Moly's properties such as the quote below. 

Bob is the Oil Guy
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/
_"Moly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermochemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine."_

Conclusion; I don't think Moly lubrication is available to our small scale live steam locomotives their lacking the "necessary thermochemical reaction..."

So we're back to the next best thing, which is?


But hey, now I know why I don't have to have our cars' oil changed for 15,000-17,000 miles. They've never gotten anything but synthetic oil with Moly since they were babies.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Huh? you don't have anything moving, so you have no thermochemical reaction? As far as I understand, we were talking about moving parts and reducing friction. There is the movement and there is the "thermo" (heat from friction)

And it is not applicable to steam locos because of why? Simply because no one has asked the manufacturer, or that car engines don't have steam so this oil cannot work?

I don't think your conclusions are actually a logical extension of the facts.

And nowhere did I say it would be great or the best for steam engines, I just said that it might and it is interesting and could be pursued.

Jeeze guys, if everyone followed that line of reasoning, we would not have vulcanized rubber, or gore-tex or post-its... think about it.

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

and we'd not have steam locomotives/trains... "everybody knows that steel wheels on steel rails will never get any tractions and the wheels will just spin in place".


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

When I bought the oil, it was for a Feinwerkbau match rifle. I haven't looked, but since they still make recoilless rifles, somebody must make the oil for the main spring. Its extremely high flash point oil, which would be good for a steamer.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

The thermochemical reaction on a 1:29 steam locomotive rods is no where near the heat and pressure in the automotive use. So the molybdenum compound will not attach itself, 
In conclusion, There would be no plating effect at all hence useless in our application.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

When I flew radio control helicopters, Miniature Aircraft sold tubes of molybdenum grease (note, labeled grease, not oil.) I expect it would function adequately on a model steamer too, but I have no experience.

Of note, in my helicopter experience, Heim joints are the control pathways, and the joints needed to be kept clear of contaminant. Small particles embed in the plastic half of the joint, and will "grind down" the metal balls.

Eric appears to be experiencing wearing away of metal axles, which makes me think dirt is getting into the bearing surface. This calls for more frequent cleaning, rather than a fancier lubricant.

An even better option would seem to be sealed bearings.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh, since I was using moly grease from car wheel bearings, I have to stop using it.

A light on my dashboard indicated insufficent temperature for thermochemical reaction.

I've never heard that moly needed to be hot to plate metal surfaces, nor it's close cousin graphite.

So, I've gone outside with a blowtorch to heat my wheel bearings to make the moly work. Likewise I went to all my door locks to heat them up to make the graphite work.

All was well until I used the blowtorch on the Kadee draft gear boxes to activate the graphite/moly mix that I used to lubricate them... Now they won't stay coupled.

Dang, I hate when I don't have a thermochemical reaction.

Greg

p.s. in case you don't get it, moly and graphite don't need heat to make a slippery surface, nor attach themselves to metal.... talk to someone else other than "Mr. Thermochemical or nothing"... IF you want to learn something..


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, you can't possibly compare wheel bearing pressures and temperatures with our side rods. Touch a wheel hub after a ride, now do you want to grab those bearings? Heat caused by friction and pressure. Just what moly grease was designed for. 
And I've been using the the graphite lubricant on the couplers, is designed for dry use, like a key in a lock, if your couplers are not staying together, it sure isn't the lubricant causing that, or is it not lubricating and not allowing them to close? 
And comparing dry power lubricants with grease or oil that have the metal compounds in suspension??

Name calling and snide remarks is what causes acrimony, not open and factual discussion or exchange if ideas. 
And since you have reduced your responses to this topic to that I will no longer respond to you, thank you.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There was no name calling and no snide remarks, but if you really want to continue a factual discussion, GREAT...

Please produce the proof that moly will only reduce friction at temperature, and pressure and please specify the temperature and pressure... and don't just tell me, show proof..

That was part of the light-hearted blowtorch reference... clearly if moly only work under high temperature and high pressure, then millions of people have been using it with no results for years....

I think that the only answer (to the supposed facts of high temperature and pressure) would be it would be a global conspiracy by the "moly mafia".

Can't you see that this is absurd?

Your desire to dismiss the use of moly because it's not hot enough or high enough pressure is strange. If you knew a little physics you would understand that pressure and temperature can be higher in small areas than you think.

Ask an engineer or physicist about how copper often can melt at the point where current flows, but immediately cools and solidifies and the point of contact moves (motor armatures).

Real facts, supported by documentation is great, bring it on, I love learning new stuff, and balk at hearsay.

Greg


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I keep thinking of the moly lube we used for break in on flat tappet camshafts. That stuff is thick and nasty, not something one would use on a gauge one live steam engine, even if it did work. (would attrect lots of dirt like steam oil does) Break Free is hard beat , inexpensive ( bottle lasts for years) easy to find (any sporting goods store) effective in our enviroment ( works in hi-temp applications, does not attract excessive dust/dirt )


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Molybednum is available in flakes just like graphite. The thick stuff is the grease it was put in.

So, I would stop thinking of the carrier and the moly itself. Clearly since it can be added to Amzoil's multigrade auto engine oil, it is neither thick or nasty in that incarnation.

The discussion I am having is not thick vs thin, I think we hashed that out already, and I also believe it became clear that elevated layouts seem to have less contamination of the external parts than ground level layouts.

This is just about adding Moly to the lubricating fluid, and there is a claim that it cannot work because there is not enough heat and pressure, that moly only becomes activated with there is a "thermochemical reaction", and then there are those of us who have seen powdered moly and moly as an additive work in "normal" temperature and pressure.

Greg


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, YES on all points, that is why I am converting to it, and thank you for your input.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, What color is the moly itself ? I remember Arco's Graphite motor oil back in the 70's , .... it was great for finding leaks hehe. ....and staining your driveway...


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

John and Steve, I raised one of mine and helped in the raising of 3 others, so I know exactly what you mean. Be patient, it will turn about later.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Molybednum is available in flakes just like graphite. The thick stuff you remember is thick because of the the grease the moly was put in, not the moly itself. The molecular structure of sulphides of molybdenum lends itself to being slippery in a manner very close to graphite. Also the structure lends itself to "plating" metals. 

So, I would stop thinking of the carrier and think of the moly itself. Clearly since it can be added to Amzoil's multigrade auto engine oil, it is neither thick or nasty in that incarnation. It is also distributed as a dry powder.

The discussion I am having is not thick vs thin, I think we hashed that out already, and I also believe it became clear that elevated layouts seem to have less contamination of the external parts than ground level layouts.

This is just about adding Moly to the lubricating fluid, and there is a claim that it cannot work because there is not enough heat and pressure, that moly only becomes activated with there is a "thermochemical reaction", and then there are those of us who have seen powdered moly and moly as an additive work in "normal" temperature and pressure.

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Read this link about moly, not from some guy whose focus is on cars and car oil:

http://www.imoa.info/molybdenum-uses/molybdenum-chemistry-uses/lubricants.php

Notice that nowhere it mentions it needs heat and pressure to work.

It does state that it does has a strong affinity for metal surfaces:



A low coefficient of friction (0.03-0.06) which, unlike graphite, is inherent and not a result of absorbed films or gases;
A strong affinity for metallic surfaces;
Film forming structure;
A yield strength as high as 3450 MPa (500 x 103 psi);
Stability in the presence of most solvents;
Effective lubricating properties from cryogenic temperatures to about 350oC in air (1200oC in inert or vacuum conditions).
Molybdenum disulfide will perform as a lubricant in vacuo where graphite fail
Also notice the applications... like locks, where there is no heat or pressure to speak of.


Greg


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep, same stuff we used 40 years ago.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

My only thought is what happens when it gets on the track, (where you want a *high* coefficient of friction), and how do you clean it off?
The "_*Stability in the presence of most solvents*_" could be a real problem.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

CLP> I JUST REALIZED I'VE BEEN USING IT FOR YEARS. I went to prep my snow blower for the upcoming snow storm. I grabbed the lube for the manual cables, looked at the container, and there it was. BREAK FREE I have been using that for the manual cables on my yard equipment and motorcycles for years, and the price on the bottle shows just how long. $2.79. 
I don't know what a better endorsement I can give it than that. My yard equip and bikes are used in all kinds of weather, summer, winter, rain, snow and anything nature can throw at us. I'm happy.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, it costs a little more now hehe


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, stability does not mean it cannot be removed or wiped off.

Of course, continued application to the rails is not good for traction, but neither is steam oil. ;-)

Greg


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
At least steam oil doesn't bond to the metal track, as does molybdenum disulfide. If that bonding takes place, I would imagine it would be near impossible to wipe off. 
In the limited internet search I have done on the subject, I find that for the bonding to take place the metal must be clean. Ironically, steam oil might actually be our savior. Thanks to it, our track is almost never really clean.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, IF that bonding action you are quoting from another source, (no fault of yours) would happen at normal inside/outside temps, then it would be disastrous to use with an electric, where clean track and wheel pick up is a must. AND if it only bonds to clean metals, then that poses again another problem with something that has been machined, stamped or used previously as other lubricants or releasing agents have already been used. Their sales promotions can't have it both ways. 

Jeff, Going back to engine re-building, which i've had the pleasure of doing. If I remember correctly before applying 'break in lubricant' the manufacturer recommended throughly cleaning the parts before installation' and "changing the engine lubricant after 500 miles". 
Yea, every thing is going up, but being a 'train crazy' I can see paying more for something I feel is worth it. And I think I now have enough to last me the rest of my stay on this orbiting asylum. 

Just to clarify one more distortion of facts: the use of dry power as a lubricant is totally different than any material in liquid suspension, and have very different applications, as per the manufacturer recommendations and disclaimer statement.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Having an affinity is not the same as bonding. Now it's funny but in another scale people with track power are using a little graphite wiped on the rails and wiped off, and are not getting negative results in traction, but positive results in reducing oxidation. I realize you don't care a whit about conductivity, but you do about traction. Also, clearly Amzoil does not require you to tear down your engine to use their moly-infused oil, so of course a clean surface is helpful, but does not make it the go-no go situation.

Anyway, moly has been used successfully in oils, and if for some reason you would radically over-oil your loco, the amount transferred to the rails would seem to be a drop in the bucket. I typically use less than a gallon of oil when I lubricate siderods ha ha!

Regards, Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Having an affinity is not the same as bonding.
> 
> Now it's funny but in another scale people with track power are using a little graphite wiped on the rails and wiped off, and are not getting negative results in traction, but positive results in reducing oxidation.
> 
> ...



Why do trains run better, maybe even on time, on track cleaned with Graphite? 

*Graphite is an electric conductor,* consequently, useful in such applications as arc lamp electrodes. 

_*Graphite *_/ˈɡræfaɪt/ is made almost entirely of carbon atoms, and as with diamond, is a semimetal native element mineral, and an allotrope of carbon. Graphite is the most stable form of carbon under standard conditions. Therefore, it is used in thermochemistry as the standard state for defining the heat of formation of carbon compounds. *Graphite may be considered the highest grade of coal, just above anthracite and alternatively called meta-anthracite, although it is not normally used as fuel because it is difficult to ignite.*

*Batteries*[edit]
The use of *graphite in batteries has been increasing in the last 30 years*. Natural and synthetic graphite are used to construct the anode of all major battery technologies.[7] The lithium-ion battery utilizes roughly twice the amount of graphite than lithium carbonate.[28]
The demand for batteries, primarily nickel-metal-hydride and lithium-ion batteries, has caused a growth in graphite demand in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This growth was driven by portable electronics, such as portable CD players and power tools. Laptops, mobile phones, tablet, and smartphone products have increased the demand for batteries. Electric vehicle batteries are anticipated to increase graphite demand. As an example, a lithium-ion battery in a fully electric Nissan Leaf contains nearly 40 kg of graphite.

Ref: Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I'd like to see is a comparison between lubricants with Moly and the numerous other premium and advanced formula lubricants using polymers, pure synthetics, etc. Call me a skeptic (I am), an ingredient name on the package doesn't mean it's providing any benefit above and beyond other products without that name on the label. Notwithstanding the actual amount of that ingredient vis-a-vis its effectiveness. Which is why I'm interested in finding a comparative evaluation and comprehensive testing of the leading lubricants under controlled conditions in a broad spectrum of conditions by a recognized testing lab . Any suggestions where I might find one appreciated.

Clearly what matters more than the specific lubricant is consistent regular application of a quality lubricant. The best lubricant does nothing if it's not applied effectively on all moving surfaces, regularly, repeatedly and liberally so the moving parts *never* loose lubrication. I believe a common good quality oil will do more good applied properly than the best lubricant applied improperly. IMHO 

From experience everyone believes they are doing it, whatever the topic, correctly, which upon examination and all evidence simply is not true in the (vast) majority of cases. 

Greg;
Last, nothing against garden railroads on the ground, however, I think if you're running in the dirt any lubricant, even the best, will be only partially or temporarily effective being quickly contaminated and degraded in that environment. The only antidote I can think of would be sealed bearings and you cannot use them everywhere so it seems you're always going to pushing a rock up a hill again and again. I think if I'd stayed with electric and not migrated to live steam I would still have built an elevated layout just to get out of the dirt. IMHO

IMOA is a very interesting web site. Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice, well reasoned post Scott. These compounds when used as a suspension in oil can be very effective. I've used moly greases for years, and use dry moly powder for couplers. Not saying they are the best in any way for this application, but would be interesting to see real scientific results.

My layout is on the ground, but dust is at a minimum, all the ballast gets washed down pretty frequently by sprinklers or a hose, so my grit problem seems to be minimal, I get more "gunk" from smashed up dry leaves. I seem to have more problems with wheel axles and other stuff under the loco than the siderods.

Regards, Greg


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg the issue for you will never be side rod wear on a sparkie. Only the steamers that use the cylinders to power not a internal motor are putting the force on the rods and pins. You valve gear is along for the ride. You will see the axle wear though less then a steamer.

I still cant get over this thread is 9 pages of debate about 10 different oils from 10 different people. Always goes to say ask 100 people a question you will get 100 different answers.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

J, thank you, you have just said what needed to be repeated as way back on page 4 by rwjenkins, and it did need to be brought up again about the stresses of the LS locomotives vs Electrics and the need for reliable lubricants. 

Differences of opinions is not a bad thing, we all have our preferences. 

What I don't understand are those that just can't grasp the fact that a different point of view is not a personal attack and it doesn't require a 'quick come back', nasty remark or name calling. Just like one feels their point is valid, so do others. Some just may have more experience, or just a different point of view, in either case it just may be a new learning experience. If you want your point of view respected, treat others the same. 
Adhere to the point and one will get better feed back or like I and others have done it the past, just move to other venues of expressing ourselves. 

And if I choose to ignore the response of those that don't respect the opinion of others, that is my choice, and it will not only be held to this particular subject. 
Thank you for your patience.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jason, actually we do get side rod wear, but for different reasons.

1. wheel slip on axles... very common on Aristo locos, and takes a while before you notice it.

2. More lateral movement on the drivers, again Aristo is the best example, since they have the most play, but Accucraft/AML and the USAT Prestige series are also examples.

3. You might also refer to the extensive lubrication instructions from Bachmann on their videos they provide (provided).

4. In the case of several sparkies, for example my AML K4 Pacifics, only one axle is geared and the siderods DO drive the the other 2 axles.

5. Sparkies seem to also be used pull more load that your live steam, (they have more pulling power) and clearly sparkies almost always operate on more and steeper grades.

So, I would not "brush off" ALL sparkies with that statement of "being along for the ride".

Clearly "never" on side rod wear is not true.

Regards, Greg


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I used to read Motorcycle Consumer News, and they published a test of motorcycle chain lubricants. Not sure if that would be searchable online - or, indeed, whether motorcycle chains are sufficiently relevant to live steam operating conditions to draw a conclusion. At least it was a study, and did find about a three-to-one range in most of the tests between the best and worst performer. Though, a motorcycle chain does transmit a lot of power through a small surface subject to motion, and resistance to dirt is very much an important consideration.

I doubt there could be any sort of scientific conclusion: operating environment, materials and tolerances of each model, diligence with cleaning and application, an individual's tendency to over- or under-oil, train length, speed, session duration, would seem to all play some role.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Red, you brought back some nice memories. I've been rinding for many years. I still own a chain drive KZ650, a shaft drive VT 1100, (both in storage) and now regularly exercise two belt drive Hogs. 
I vividly remember the cleaning brush attached to the cleaning fluid can that hit both side of the chain at the same time. And if I remember it did state it was rubber or sealant safe as the NEW chains had that in the links to keep dirt from going into the chain body. 
I don't know what that lubricant was but I do know if I threw a chain, which I did several times due to lack of maintenance and HURAA, it was hot enough to burn me when I forced the chain back on the sprocket. 
I'm sure that lubricant is still out there, but don't really know if it will be applicable to our use. 
BUT THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES
PICS, sorry the first one is obviously not a HOG but my sweetheart Trinity a now 13 year old Wheaton actually born in Ireland that came to live with me 6 years ago Yes she is a Legal Immigrant as I have the paper work to prove it, LOL LOL. 
The other is of my Hogs. Thank You.

Oh yea, the water bowl in the garage, no I don't keep her in there, but some times an errant critter or two will be trapped in there that I am not aware of, they will have survival properties, along with the grass seed and other stored stuff.


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## bobrstrong (Mar 25, 2013)

llynrice said:


> One lubricant which might be worth trying is TW25B from Mil-Comm Products. I say this based on my 30 years in aerospace engineering as the project engineer for the turreted gun system used on the AH-1 Cobra helicopters. The three gun bolts which slide back and forth on tracks on the Gatling gun rotor had to be well lubricated to keep them from binding and jamming. Sadly, in severe dessert sand and dust conditions, the sand and dust would mix in with the grease and form a sludge which would badly wear the parts and eventually jam them. Some enterprising Marines discovered TW25B and bought some out of their own pockets. It's Teflon-based and can be applied in a very fine film which will not attract or hold sand and dust. TW25B worked very well and the military eventually approved its use in severe sand and dust environments.
> 
> Because there has been discussion in this thread about wear from grit trapped in lubricants, it brought TW25B to mind.
> 
> I've not yet tried using it on a loco, but think there may be some possibility of success. It will be several months before we have warm enough weather to get out steaming and give it a try. I would be inclined to use it on axles, valve gear eccentrics and valve gear parts. I'm inclined to use conventional heavy oil on the piston shaft and cross head guides.


 Wow that's a new one on me. I have some experience with sand, aircraft and weapons ( Cam Rahn Bay & Gulf War 1 ) 1st as an Acft mechanic later as a Flight Engineer. Talk about wear. The Fine sand at Cam Rahn Bay would wear out your boot soles in about a month and played havoc with operating systems on the aircraft. I am familiar with those rotating gun turrets and how fast they spin and operate. The type of lubricant you describe sounds like it could be usefull on some parts of the loco. As far as the piston and valve rods I think I would still stick to the Steam oil or similar so as to not cause a mixture of the two. 
So where can one get this TW25B?


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