# Ever wonder where that Standard Gage came from



## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

I know many may know this but there may be a few who still wonder

Here is a look into the corporate mind that is very interesting, educational, historical, completely true, and hysterical all at the same time: 

The US standard railroad gauge (width between the two rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used?
image: http://www.snopes.com/history/graphics/railroad.gif

Train

Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates. 

Why did the English build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. 

Why did "they" use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons which used that wheel spacing. 

Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. 

So who built those old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe (and England) were built by Imperial Rome for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots first formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for (or by) Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. 

The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman war chariot. Specifications and bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses. Thus, we have the answer to the original question. 

Now the twist to the story . . . 

There's an interesting extension to the story about railroad gauges and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory had to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds. So, the major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a Horse's Ass!
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp#MshSJmWdcQp4M7zu.99


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If Hannibal succeeded in destroying Rome perhaps standard gauge would be as wide as an elephant's ass...

Andrew


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok then this raises the Question.....How Wide is a Elephant's Ass ?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

A 100 year old myth, debunked many times, but still posted ten times a year in every railroad related forum in existance.
http://www.grijalvo.com/A_Trevor_Hodge/Roman_roads_gauge.htm


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

John J said:


> Ok then this raises the Question.....How Wide is a Elephant's Ass ?


As wide as broad gauge! 

Andrew


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

The first Roman expedition to Britain was a reconnoiter of the island by Julius Caesar in 55 BC, purportedly to suppress the reinforcements being given the native tribes in Gaul. There, chariots no longer were being used, and the ambush of a legion caught in the open and surrounded by the cavalry and chariots of the Britons provides an excursus by Caesar on their tactics, so unfamiliar to the Romans.

"In chariot fighting the Britons begin by driving all over the field hurling javelins, and generally the terror inspired by the horses and the noise of the wheels are sufficient to throw their opponents' ranks into disorder. Then, after making their way between the squadrons of their own cavalry, they jump down from the chariot and engage on foot. In the meantime their charioteers retire a short distance from the battle and place the chariots in such a position that their masters, if hard pressed by numbers, have an easy means of retreat to their own lines. Thus they combine the mobility of cavalry with the staying power of infantry; and by daily training and practice they attain such proficiency that even on a steep incline they are able to control the horses at full gallop, and to check and turn them in a moment. They can run along the chariot pole, stand on the yoke, and get back into the chariot as quick as lightning" (Gallic War, IV.33).

Arviragus, an otherwise unknown British king, is said to have been hurled from a chariot pole (Juvenal, Satires, IV.126-127). The passage is cited by Geoffrey of Monmouth in the twelfth-century, who romanticizes Arviragus in the Historia Regum Britanniae (IV.12ff). The second son of Cymbeline, Arviragus becomes king of Britain, marries the daughter of the emperor Claudius, refuses tribute to the Roman Senate, allies with Vespasian to attack Ireland, is famed throughout Europe, and mentioned by Juvenal himself. Arviragus also appears in Shakespeare's Cymbeline.

The next year, there was a second expedition and another encounter between Caesar and the Britons. Again, the novelty of fighting, which took place "under the eyes of all," was disconcerting. The Roman infantry, too heavily armed, was at a disadvantage, as was the cavalry. The Britons, fighting in open formation, deliberately would give ground to draw the cavalry after them and then jump from their chariots and fight on foot, with fresh detachments taking the place of the weary (V.16). In a subsequent engagement the next day, Caesar's legions routed the Britons, who were prevented by the Roman cavalry from rallying. Cassivellaunus was obliged to disband most of his troops but continued to watch Caesar's line of march with the remainder of his force, harassing any Roman cavalry straying too far from the column of infantry (V.19). Caesar remarks that some four thousand charioteers shadowed his men.


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

maybe not the Roman chariots played a part in the story but perhaps the Briton chariots fact or fiction it's still adds to the myth


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

All;

Since the ancient Egyptians used chariots first, standard gauge is most likely three cubits! 

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The two ruts in the ground were originally caused by the animals, two-by-two, side-by-side, making their ways to Noah's Ark and then leaving the Ark, two-by-two, side-by-side, after the great flood. 

The small animals went first and thus was created narrow gauge. Next the medium size animals thus was created standard gauge. Last the big animals thus was created broad gauge. 

This was part of God's plan for mankind and the railroads God had ordained would follow.



If you had gone to Sunday church school when you were kids you would know this.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Here are some main aspects...

Wikipedia:-"The historical tendency to place the wheels of horse-drawn vehicles approximately 5 feet (1,500 mm) apart probably derives from the width needed to fit a carthorse in between the shafts.[9] In addition, while road-traveling vehicles are typically measured from the outermost portions of the wheel rims (and there is some evidence that the first railroads were measured in this way as well),[citation needed] it became apparent that for vehicles travelling on rails it was better to have the wheel flanges located inside the rails, and thus the distance measured on the inside of the wheels (and, by extension, the inside faces of the rail heads), was the important one."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gauge

Although there were several different colliery wagonway gauges (wooden rails) already in use, George Stevenson favored 4'8" gauge railway (instead of plateway) and used existing Chaldron wagons on the Stockton and Darlington Railway in 1821
Stephenson added another 1/2" to the gauge for the Liverpool and Manchester Railway (1830) to stop binding on the curves.

Replica Chaldron wagon









Plateway









The seal of the Stockton & Darlington Railway 'At private risk for public service'









Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, the history of two ruts in the road has been traced back to prehistoric times and cavemen.

You see cavemen were not a very trusting lot. When hunting no caveman would let another caveman walk behind him for fear of being killed (stabbed in the back as it were) and taking the kill and or the mans mate(s), rank in the group, etc. They would only walk side-by-side thus creating the ruts in the road spaced apart as the distance between two cavemen walking side-by-side. Cavemen had to hunt a lot, hence the origin of the phrase, in a rut.

Do you now why no one can answer the question how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Because no one can agree on the size of an angel.

But, the real answer to the question of how many angels can dance on the head of pin is, as many as are necessary.


The head of a pin is the point, opposite the tail.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Does make me wonder why tunnels are as big as they are, though.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

And the real answer to "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" IS "It depends on the size of his headstock and the length of his wood lathe's bed." 

Now back to trains. Isambard Kingdom Brunnel (Great Western Railway, England) considered seven foot "standard gauge" and four foot, eight and a half inches "narrow gauge." The Erie Railroad was at one time six foot gauge, and most of the railroads south of the Mason Dixon Line were five foot gauge. It was not until the last decades of the nineteenth century that many of the broad gauged lines became four foot, eight and a half inch gauge. (OBTW, during WWII a lot of military shipments went via the GWR, as it was built with a loading gauge for the old seven foot gauge.)

I think the English measurement for O gauge was an inch and a quarter, which made O gauge five foot gauge when using 1:48 scale.

Just some useless fun stuff to add to the mix.

Have fun with your trains,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, the question is 'Where standard gauge came from'. It doesn't matter what Brunnel or others considered what 'their' standard gauge was. Interesting history though.
My standard gauge is 45mm and I'm not changing it! 

Andrew


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Dave, the question is 'Where standard gauge came from'."

Andrew;

Like I typed earlier, it was originally three cubits.  That's my story, and I am sticking to it. (Converting standard gauge into cubits yields 18.83 inches per cubit. Reasonable, since the value of a cubit was dependent on which pharaoh was occupying the throne of ancient Egypt.)

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave, the Egyptians were late to the party. They didn't have chariots until 1,600 BC. Chariots were first used by the Indo-Iranians 2,000 BC. Everyone knows that!  

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Dave, the Egyptians were late to the party. They didn't have chariots until 1,600 BC. Chariots were first used by the Indo-Iranians 2,000 BC. Everyone knows that!
> 
> Andrew


True, the ancient Egyptian foot army was destroyed by an invading Assyrian army equipped with chariots, but once exposed to the new technology not only did they adopt but quickly mastered the art of chariot building and became the undisputed masters of chariot warfare, so much so that a couple centuries later routing that same Assyrian army that first exposed chariots to them.

Re: standard gauge, it was Stevenson who simply built to the existing gauge of the Darlington line, he simply kept the gauge on subsequent lines because he didn't see any reason to change it from what he knew worked, and what he was already set up for manufacturing.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

This is why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7_Z9tskdj4&feature=youtu.be


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Vic, yes but it was 4'8" he adopted by using the Chaldron wagons from wooden railed collieries that were already in abundance. He added the extra 1/2" to the gauge stop binding on the curves several years later.

Similar to what you do to your tunnel portals on your pizza layout! 

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Vic, yes but it was 4'8" he adopted by using the Chaldron wagons from wooden railed collieries that were already in abundance. He added the extra 1/2" to the gauge stop binding on the curves several years later.
> 
> Similar to what you do to your tunnel portals on your pizza layout!
> 
> Andrew


Actually I just whack off a little of the portal to make it work


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, you remind me of the old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t."


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

BigRedOne said:


> Does make me wonder why tunnels are as big as they are, though.



Elephants.


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