# Wireless Routers - OT/NT



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Why is it that every wireless router I've ever had, regardless of brand, craps out after around two years?









The damn things have no moving parts and nothing that should wear out. It's like they have a pre-programmed "fail by" date buried in the firmware!







And it always revolves around the same two issues... accepting connections and the DHCP firmware. I swear, if I ever find one that works longer than two years, I think I'll have it buried with me!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Two Words PLANDED OBSOLESENCE.....

Need I say more.

JJ 

PS. There is a extra charge for burring people with Foreign Objects. Unless they are all ready in the body.

Do you want them to stick this some where?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have had mine for about 5 years now. I'll have to get up and go look at the brand! Oh wait... LinkSys... now, what is the model number? still have to get up to go look. Oh! Wait... I remember my password and logged into it... WRT54G 

I remember downloading and updating the firmware in it once. Haven't messed with it since, except to turn off the wireless portion. I only turn it on when I want to run wirelessly, otherwise I keep the wifi off and run on ethernet cables I have distributed around the house (faster that way and less chance of some teenage idiot trying to break in, yes it is encrypted, but that doesn't stop them from tying up the modem while trying to break in!).


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Dwight......... 

Are you not treating it nicely? 
I have an Asus at one house and a D-Link at the other; each one must be more than five years old and they are humming along very happily. 

Knut


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles - it's the wireless portion that always causes trouble. A wired CAT5 connection still works fine. If I power down and then power up, it works just fine - for a few hours. 

Krs - I set them up, set them on a table, and leave them. They run 24/7/365. I've had several LinkSys of various models, a couple of NetGear, and a couple of other brands I can't remember anymore. The current router is a NetGear WNDR3300. 

I just ordered an Asus Black Diamond RT-N56U based upon great reviews. Should get me through another two years or so.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 09 Jun 2011 08:31 PM 
Charles - it's the wireless portion that always causes trouble. A wired CAT5 connection still works fine. If I power down and then power up, it works just fine - for a few hours. 

Krs - I set them up, set them on a table, and leave them. They run 24/7/365. I've had several LinkSys of various models, a couple of NetGear, and a couple of other brands I can't remember anymore. The current router is a NetGear WNDR3300. 

I just ordered an Asus Black Diamond RT-N56U based upon great reviews. Should get me through another two years or so. 

I ran wifi for close to 3 years before I noted a miserably slow connection one time. I turned off my only PC and the data access lights on the router were still blinking madly. I'd shut if off and back on and it would start up again in a minute or two. Borrowed a "sniffer" from a computer outfit here in town and we found someone was trying random keys to break into the wifi (and chewing up most of the bandwidth on that channel while doing so). So I bought cables and turned off the wifi completely. Now when I turn wifi on, it is not on for more than a couple of hours and who ever it was that was trying to break in has lost interest (actually if it was the kid I thought it was, he moved!). Now, I have also turned off Broadcasting the SSID when when the wifi is on and that makes it a little bit harder for someone to even find the wifi. When my kids visit and want to use their computers I have to tell them not only the 20+ character KEY (assigned to them only while they are visiting [and then I delete it]) but the SSID as well.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dwight: I was going to be a jerk and say our wireless router's been going strong for years. Buy I won't. Integrated circuits these days are so micro tiny I can't imagine how to protect them from ordinary degradation. This stuff is like zillion billionths of an inch. Would not take much for them to just "evaporate". I studied computer science (punch card FORTRAN) in the 70's. Back then a 4K memory chip fit on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Several things to check that could zap the transmitter. 

Check your incoming signal lines (phone/cable/etc.) for proper grounding and a lightning arrestor. The Modem might withstand a static discharge, but still pass it on to the Router. 

Also check the ground on the electrical outlet the router is on. 

Do you have problems with static in the house (and I don't mean the spousal type), like getting a spark when you touch a doorknob? Static discharge can kill the transmitter output... A kitty (if you are saddled with one) rolling on the floor and then jumping up on the table where the router is could zap it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I've gone through this process before. As I said above, this isn't the first time it's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last. I do IT for a living, and to be completely honest, the last thing I want to do when I get home is more of the same. It's simply easier to buy another one, and cheaper than buying all the crap I'd need to try and diagnose the trouble. Just pisses me off is all.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 09 Jun 2011 10:14 PM 
I've gone through this process before. As I said above, this isn't the first time it's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last. I do IT for a living, and to be completely honest, the last thing I want to do when I get home is more of the same. It's simply easier to buy another one, and cheaper than buying all the crap I'd need to try and diagnose the trouble. Just pisses me off is all. 

WHAT??? Aren't computers your life?

What would you rather be doing? Playing with some greasy, grimey, smokey, smelly ol' steam locomotive?


Ack, what am I saying? Of course that would be preferable!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

What would you rather be doing? Playing with some greasy, grimey, smokey, smelly ol' steam locomotive?Abso-frakking-lutely!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight, same experience with linksys, just consumer grade, run hot and the rf portion goes nuts... 

Look into the Netgear Pro series, better performance, made better, and lifetime warranty. I'm deploying them across our stores after using their router and ap in my house... a little more expensive but worth it. 

Greg


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I went through the periodic replacement of routers for years. Then I learned that Comcast will provide them at no cost! (I think I had to pay 10 bucks for shipping.) Of course they will replace it when/if it fails. It's a top-of-the-line Netgear router. I don't know if any other ISPs do this, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a "side note" here folks. While I was busy reading Dwight's post, we had a major power outage here in Burbank. About 11:30pm PDT last night. My computer is on a Battery Back-up, so all was good. BUT I was very concerned about my Cisco/Linksys E2000 wireless router, it is not on the battery back-up. This morning, everything started right up, including the wireless router! This router I believe is about 18 months old. As I am NOT a computer geek AND my computer guy here in town moved to Virginia, I'm very glad that I don't have to fart with it this morning!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The line of netgear above the regular consumer stuff is NetGear ProSafe, that has the lifetime warranty. I use their 8 port gigabit router at home (very few inexpensive 8 port ones available)... they also make a really good wireless access point, which does 802.11b, g, a, n and an. It's expensive but works very well, some of the lower end AP's don't work well with Macs, especially Linksys WAP54G. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Wow - I don't believe this!

We just had a power interruption here that only lasted a fraction of a second - the computer is on UPS but the modem and WiFi router are not, so what do I get when I try to access the net?










And of course I have no clue what the account ID or password are for the router.

I thought the router was toast........

Luckily, after powering the router and modem down, waiting a minute or so and powering everything back up, got me back on line.
I think it's time to connect the modem and router to the UPS as well.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Your router/modem lost power and when they came back up they asked your ISP for an address to use. Your computer did not know that happened and used the old address that it knew and they were not happy with each other. No problem, you powered down for a long enough period for your conputer to recognize the loss of the router and when they powered back up and got another new address the computer recognized the event and all is well.

BUT!

I strongly recommend you login to your router and change the administrator name and password from the default. The defaults are POSSIBLY "admin" and "admin", respectively. (Check with the ASUS web site to see if they use a different default than other companies.) Once you change it, WRITE IT DOWN and tape it to the top of the router so you will know what they are if you need to alter settings in the router later.

WHILE you are at it... be sure your WiFi is set to a secure mode to keep your neighbors and driveby snoopers from using YOUR connection to the internet to download porn and getting YOU arrested for it. Since you say you have never been into the router settings, that implies you may not have a secure WiFi... they often come from the factory setup as an unsecure, wide open, WiFi.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

According to the manual, Semp is right, default user name and password are both admin. 

The manual I found does not describe the wireless security modes available, but this thing is OLD! It shows how to set up your Ethernet if your computer is Windows NT 4.0 !!!! 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jun 2011 12:37 PM 
According to the manual, Semp is right, default user name and password are both admin. 

The manual I found does not describe the wireless security modes available, but this thing is OLD!
OLD ?????

Comes in a pretty white box and looks as good as new.

The security that is set up is WPA Personal with "TKIP" (whatever that means) encryption.

There are a number of other security options but they are all WPA

I'm not too worries about anyone hacking into the wireless network portion, I'm out in the country a bit, neighbors are far enough away so that I don't even "see" their wireless signal.
To get to the router settings one has to be on the LAN, can people actually access my router (behind the DSL modem) from the net? I didn't think so.
I have the firewall activated in stealth mode on the Mac, so that at least helps keeping unwanted people out of my Mac.


In Montreal where I'm in the middle of the city and where I pick up about a dozen other WiFi networks I have a D-Link wireless router.
It uses WEP security which I think is more robust than the WPA one.
There I actually have changed my admin password, whereas on the ASUS router it's still the default one.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

but this thing is OLD!If it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially when the "newer" ones have such a limited life expectancy. hehehe


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree with Greg on the recommendation of the netgear stuff. My brother owns a computer repair business and he works on all of them. the one he works on the least is the netgear stuff. 

I have had your same problem Dwight. I was using Linksys, but after about 2-3 years the wireless goes to crap. I was told by a computer guy that it has to do with all the wireless signals in my home. I have to say I'm sceptical of his theory but he might have a point. I do have a lot of wireless items in my home, phones, speakers, video game consoles and more I cant remember. He said the amount of wireless signals running around, makes the wireless portion of the router work harder to maintain a proper signal. Basically the wireless transmitter (or whatever they call it) gets worn out. Like I said not sure of his theory but I suppose it could be possible.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Basically the wireless transmitter (or whatever they call it) gets worn out.But what is there to wear out? There are no moving parts and nothing mechanical to wear. Electronic components usually work or they don't. But they normally don't degrade. I could understand it if one day the damn thing just quit working completely - i.e. something blew. But that isn't the case. Reboot the thing and it works fine... for a little while.


I've certainly seen computers degrade in performance, but the reasons are usually understandable. OS "upgrades" (patches), hard disk fragmentation caused by continuous addition and deletion of files, an accumulation of clutter in the Registry due to installing and uninstalling software and other reasons, fragmentation of the Registry for the same reasons, software with memory leaks (short term performance degradation until hard reboot) - generally speaking, "OS Rot." But none of that applies here. There is no Registry or disk to fragment or get cluttered up, no software is running to cause memory leaks in the conventional sense, no software is being installed or uninstalled, and I've never patched the firmware. If there were some memory in which a section blew and degraded performance, rebooting should make no difference.
Why always the same issues... connectivity or the DHCP? Why does a reboot fix it, but only temporarily? And why did it work just fine for two years or so and then start having problems when nothing's changed? It's an aggrevating mystery that seems to defy description or logic!









Got the new Asus Black Diamond router today. Now that I have a backup router, I may try upgrading the firmware of the old one before ****-canning it... just for grins.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds very much like a temperature related problem.


If there are air vents on the bottom, make sure it is not sitting on something that can block those vents (like a table cloth or papers, etc.)

Blow out the air vents with compressed air (use a can of air that is designed for cleaning electronics, just air from a compressor can generate static that can zap the circuitry) and make sure it is not sitting on or very near something that gets hot (like on top of the computer, TV, etc.) or traps heat around the unit (too close under a shelf, etc.).

I have one net-cam in my video surveillance system and when I originally used it wirelessly it worked fine for about 6 months, but then it would lose connection to the router at random times, but most often at night. Turn it off and back on and it would be okay for a while... from a few minutes to a day or two. I finally figured out that it was a temperature problem (the reason it seemed to be worse at night!). I had it on a window ledge behind some heavy curtains and when it got cold outside the temperature behind the curtain, next to the window, dropped considerably below the room's temperature. Measuring the frequency of its output showed that it drifted WAY OFF frequency when cold. It is now hardwired into the system and I have not had a problem with it since.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

As for what "wears out"... The microcuitry can be damaged by cosmic rays (NO JOKE!). Heat, even the heat generated within itself in normal operation, can cause migration of the molecules and that can break a connection or short something out. Continous flow of electrons can drag molecules out of position and do the same thing. 

Then there is the "STATIC Electricity" thing. High Voltage can punch through a insulation layer that is only a few molecules thick. Even rubbing the case with a dust cloth can generate enough of a static charge to kill the thing (always use a "damp" (NOT WET!) cloth to reduce the chance of producing a static electric charge!).

Microelectronics DO "wear out".


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

This thread is starting to get a bit ridiculous - microelectronics do not wear out in the normal sense like a brake lining on a car or the shingles on a roof. 
Sure, cosmic rays can damage microcircuitry but that is such a remote possibility that one might as well forget about it; * excessive * heat is an enemy of any electronics but if that is in fact an issue here then it's a poor design - there are very few heat generating components in a router and excessive heat should never be an issue in this case. My routers are barely warmer than room temperature and they run 24/7. 

As to static - that mostly affects ICs with very high input impedance like MOS devices and was an issue when they were first developed but that is no longer an issue today, certainly not for something that is protected in a box. 
If you open the box to work on the circuit, yes, then you may want to wear an anti-static strap. 

That comment by the "computer guy" that the wireless router gets "worn out" because it has to work too hard is pure bull roar - electrons don't get tired, at least not in my life time. 

If there was some inherent generic wear out factor of microelectronics, that would apply to all of them. I designed Central Office switching systems for some of my professional life - the requirement there was a 40-year life with a 99.9995 uptime. You can't achieve that if the microelectronics are "wearing out" after a few years. 

Each component has a failure rate; I'm sure people have seen the typical bathtub curves; the failure rate depends on many factors, but typically, the cheaper the component the higher the potential failure rate. And for consumer products - the manufacturing cost is expected to be low, low......people still buy on price. 
The other factor is design integrity - for instance, we would always use capacitors that had a violtage rating of 50% or more than the maximum applied voltage. So if that voltage was say 24 volts, we would automatically select a 50 volt or higher voltage capacitor, a designerwho has to account for every penny inhis design would probably chose a 25 volt capacitor. 

I opened up a DCC system not too long ago just to take a look as to what type of components were used - WOW, worse that the cheapest of the old Japanese transistor radios where the resistors were all standing up and squashed together and a phenol board instead of G-10 epoxy or something similar. 
Talk about "Planned Obsolescence: as someone noted earlier. 

If an electronic circuit is designed properly with reasonable quality components, it will last longer than one would want to use it. 

Now - occasionally there will be unexpected flaws like ICs where the seal is defective and contaminants get to the substrate, but that happens very seldom and a company will usually replace those components at no charge (even outside of the warranty period) since it's considered a manufacturing defect...............and they don't want to turn off the customer so that he won't buy that manufacturer's product again.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Microelectronics "age" with time, and most importantly heat. Semp was hot on the trail there... the evidence is there, the linksys units fail over time... remember it's the junction temperatures inside the chip... you don't need a lot of heat total, just components that weren't designed very well to not generate a lot of local heat or cannot dissipate it well. 

Knut, your wireless router was developed around 2008 or earlier. In today's world, that is old, not antique, but no modern stuff references win nt 4.0... but if it was a good design, and it lasts, then it's fine.. of course. 

By the way, WEP is the easiest to break, a kid with a freely available program can break your wep key with a good computer in about 40 minutes... stick with wpa, it's newer and harder to break... 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, call me "chip ignorant", but "failure" isn't exactly what we're talking about here... more like intermittent degradation. And no, the router isn't sitting on a tablecloth or newspaper, or in any way being used other than as it was design intended. I may be stupid, but not THAT stupid, and I have been around this block many times since 1980 and the TRS-80 Model 1.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All you need is a little corruption in some data used by the microprocessor, a flaky ram chip, more errors than the error correction can handle. Most devices like this copy their "program" from flash to dram when they start up. 

With the ever-present drive to make things cheaper, there's always someone looking into how to cut a penny here and there... 

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I suppose. Like I said before, it pisses me off is all.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Me too, I'm replacing about 30 linksys WAP54G access points right now... even pulling out the ones that have not failed yet... just a matter of time.. I've had 2 fail at my house (that I bought myself). 

Greg


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