# Ever wonder what happened to all of the independents on eBay?



## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All,

Here is an intersting note I found on some changes eVilBay made to their feedback policy. No wonder only the major sellers are on line and that very few inidividual sellers even sell any more!

* PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION REGARDING EBAY'S FEEDBACK POLICY.* 
*Please make sure you leave a rating of "5" on all detailed sellers ratings (DSRs) when you are leaving feedback. Ebay recently made changes to their feedback system where sellers can suffer SEVERE penalties if anything besides a "5" is left and you may be hurting your favorite sellers without knowing it. What are these penalties? 


* 


**Any rating below 4.9: Seller pays an additional 5% in fees to sell on ebay** 


* 


**Any rating below 4.8: Seller pays an additional 10% in fees to sell on ebay, and seller's listings are demoted in ebay's search - making them harder to find** 


* 


**Any rating below 4.6: Seller pays an additional 5% in fees to sell on ebay and loses powerseller status. Listings are further demoted in ebay's search** 


* 


**Any rating below 4.3: Penalty -Seller's listings are moved the the last pages of search results** 


* 


**Any rating below 4.1: Penalty - Seller is no longer allowed to list on ebay **(Click here for ebay's policy of banning sellers at a 4.1 rating) 


* 


*eBay tells you a "4" rating means the item was accurately described, that you were satisfied with the seller's communication, the item was shipped quickly, and the shipping charges were reasonable - which a normal person would say is a good thing. However, ebay treats a "4" as a request to terminate the sellers's ebay account, charge the seller more, and make it difficult for bidders to find that seller's items. If you feel that the service you received does not warrant a "5" rating, PLEASE contact ME so I can resolve any issues for you. I am a reasonable person and more than willing to work with you to resolve any issues. ** 


* I actually hope Ebay falls apart based upon these types of issues!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Do you now wonder any longer why I avoid evil-bait and pay-up-now like the plague?


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Just wondering if Shad could open a simular,but smaler net enterprize like : Shads bay/ or like "steambay" or the like! Of course just a Train related internet=swap,sale site(a little bit fancier than the classified page??!!??)

Manfred


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

it's not called evilBay for nothing....


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Rich, I will have to remember the note you posted. I have never given anything higher than 4 rating when purchasing on ebay. Not because anything went wrong, but nobody is perfect and people can always improve on what they are doing. First they prohibited from giving negative feedback now this. What is next? 
Ron


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't know where the information shown above came from, but it's misleading. A seller doesn't pay more if his rating decreases; his discount on selling fees decreases. Also, if you follow the link shown for ratings below 4.1, you won't see anything like that. It's just not true.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't imagine using eBay to sell trains these days. I sell a lot of trains on a regular basis--mostly O gauge--and would never consider using eBay. Never have had any problems using other venues. One of these days, when I get around to selling a bunch of new-in-box LGB items, I'll use the classified section on this site and other such venues. And if I ever decide to sell my Marklin MAXI collection, I'll shop around for someone who collects those no-longer-made items, but you sure won't see me offering them on eBay. 

I'm still registered with eBay, but haven't used it for buying or selling anything for some years now because of the many policies, fees, and restrictions that work against the seller.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree Stan, I just cannot find that same information. I did find the number of times you can have 1's and 2's, it's like 1% to 2% of the time. 

I cannot find anything near as draconian as was posted above. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

So, I sell some model airplanes on eBay. On the listing is the EXACT cost of shipping and handling, $2 + the USPS flat rate. Guy in Florida wins two items, so, I charge EXACTLY what I said I would, $2 per item, plus ONE USPS flat rate box. And he said my shipping and handling was too high and dinged me, for charging exactly what was in the description. eBay knows what's in my description, they sent the invoice. What's my recourse for the bad rating? 

Exactly right: None. 

The problem, as I see it? 50% of all Americans are of below average intelligence... 

Robert


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't use them as much as I used to, because the fees have gotten so bad. Listing fees + final value fees + paypal fees = they make more than the sellers. You also now have to take the postal insurance money out of your own pocket. It doesn't come up in their shipping calculator anymore. 


I never saw the info posted, but I DO know that I had ONE (1! singular) unreasonable guy give me a low rating on shipping time in November. Which allegedly put me below their 4.5 minimum in all categories (with all 5s and a 4.45!) to get their free listing promotion in December. As soon as the promotion ended it went up to a 4.6..... Yeah, sure. Just another reason to offer it elsewhere first.


The seller can't review those individual ratings or dispute them. Supposedly it's to let the buyers be more open without "fear of retaliatory feedback". IMO the secrecy makes it MORE likely to be abused, not less. 


But yes, the quantity of affordable 2nd hand items in most categories I search are way, way, down from say 3-4 years ago. It might be because those out of work already sold off everything they could. Or the final prices were down for so long the 2nd hand sellers gave up. Or, like me, the higher fees and obvious unfair prejudice towards the buyers has turned them off using it. 


If feebay's greedy grasping for more ended them up with less, they earned it.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By rdamurphy on 20 Feb 2011 09:24 AM 

The problem, as I see it? 50% of all Americans are of below average intelligence... 

Robert 


Yep,
And 50% are above average intelligence. Funny how statistics work. 
Ralph


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

So, Ralph, that means half of them can't figure out what they're doing, and the other half think they can outsmart you! 

LOL! 

Robert


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't use them much anymore either! Here a few months ago, (i have been a 100% positive feedback member since 2006) I had a buyer trash my feedback, over a small ding on a guitar I was selling, and what he said was a damaged electronics issue. The ding was fully disclosed in the description, and to my knowledge there was nothing wrong with the electronics, which he did not read, and admitted it, he also waited almost 15 days to file a dispute, wherein PreyPal froze my acct. and until I had this resolved and or put any money back in via selling had a negative balance there. The buyer had the electronics fixed, he says which that part was unknown to me, I had played and checked it out before I sold it. What he told EvilBay was something that the original owner had done when upgrading the pickups on the guitar and I had no knowledge of any problem. Anyway he left me negative feedback BEFORE he filed the dispute, and the evil bay and Preypal both sided with him, he refused to send the guitar back for a full refund, already had it fixed (so musta been a minor fix) before he filed the dispute. Many calls to both went un-resolved, and finally I escalated it where they make a decision. Well now I have a 95.5% feedback rating because of this lying jerk. He didn't want to resolve anything, he could have gotten a full refund I would have even had to pay the shipping back, oh I sent it to him and I paid the freight free shipping on it. So like I say I am a little disgruntled with Evil Bay and PreyPal so I don't use either unless I end up having to by either finding something I want to get or selling something I want to move or just trim down my inventory a bit!! So both sides have messed with me both as a seller and a buyer twice now, and believe me they didn't back me up on either even when they admitted I had done nothing wrong!! So buyer's and seller's beware eventually you will end up with a situation like I did on either side and the two sites will show their REAL colors to you!!


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I have bought quite a lot on Ebay and have never really had a problem with selling or buying! I am not saying I have not had any issues with sellers, I am saying I have come to a mutual agreement with any I have had a questionable transaction with them knowing if I am not happy I could post negative feedback, I have NEVER had to go that far.








I have delt with sellers that have made honest mistakes, and are quite worried about the feedback! I have met sellers that have went WAY FAR beyond making me pleased. That were honest people and were very concerned that I was not happy and they made it right!









I also feel leaving negative feedback is like a mud slinging match and do not like to leave negative feedback, BOTH points of view are subjective at best!









If you want to play the game then we as consumers need to realize that some of it is our responsibility to make sure BEFORE we bid that the seller explained completely about the item they are selling in the first place!
By contacting the seller and asking for better pics, as I have seen some sellers that post crapy pics, but I contact them and ask them to send better ones, or ask questions about the item if I am not clear. CLEARLY and specificly asking if there is anything wrong, broken, misiing, reglued, repainted, or if it runs correctly! If I am not clear on it!

No listen very very close, if any of the above criteria is not to my satisfaction, now listen..DON'T BID!!!!!!! Plain and simple!









By not taking some responsibility we get to this point where people will not sell because of the penalties put in place by people NOT getting things cleared up before they bid...now where do we go to sell?









Bottom line if a seller CLEARLY describes their item and CLEARLY states S/H fees, CLEARLY states "SOLD AS IS...NO REFUNDS, NO RETURNS", and we do not CLEARIFY any questions we have PRIOR to bidding......is it REALLY the sellers fault?









IMHO
Bubba


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## curlyp (Sep 4, 2009)

With E-Bay it is smart to be smart.
I have been buying and selling since e-bay started as auction web in 1997. As a buyer make sure you look at the shipping charges, some people drastically inflate the shipping to make a profit. I don't buy from them. Look closely at the pictures, if the picture is so poor that I can't see the detail I need, I will ask for more pictures or not bid on the item. Check the sellers profile and read any negative or neutral comments. If no returns are allowed you have to wonder why!

As a seller I use a high quality camera and take clear pictures from all sides. I use Garagesale software which allows as many pictures as I want without any additional e-bay fees. I give an accurate description. I only add a handling charge to large packages where it costs me for packing materials and I disclose that cost in the ad. For small high value items I offer free shipping and use flat rate boxes. 

E-bays fees and paypal fees are pretty steep but I consider it the cost of doing business.

I am not into this as a business but I buy small collections when I can and resell them as a way to fund my hobby. I do also spend a lot with some of our favorite retailers. 

Paul


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I am alway extremely carefull how I describ items to make sure they are accurate to condition. I also mostly now only list them as PARTS ONLY AS IS in LARGE friendly letters and with a low $1 or $5 starting so their no way they can claim items were overpriced or incorrectly listed, I NEVER describe used items as new or other shenanigans i've seen on ebay. In todays market thats just plain foolish.


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

I do some buying on Ebay. It is mainly for out of production model kits. Only had one bad transaction and that was years ago. Never got the item and luckily I put in to the feedback waht happened as the seller tried to sell the same item same description again and the possible buyer contacted me first. I have done some selling on Ebay. I am right upfront that my shipping charges also include my time, cost of packaging, and gas for driving to drop it off at UPS. State it right up front as well. 
LAO


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By curlyp on 20 Feb 2011 11:14 AM 
With E-Bay it is smart to be smart.
.... If no returns are allowed you have to wonder why!...





Because TWICE I had some moron abuse the stuff then try to claim it wasn't as described (fresh pliers marks? Not when it left here.). Once I had a guy swap his non-running one for the one I sold (They were not even identical, and even then feebay didn't much care). Once I had a guy buy a trainset right before Christmas and return it right after. AND they don't want to refund your fees, either. Plus if I'm selling today it means I need the money to pay bills today, not to sit in Paypal for 15-20 days "just in case".... and they WILL reach in and take the money. If it's used it's AS-IS, and you can be darn sure I described it VERY accurately. And I have extra pix just in case. 


In the last 10 years I've had 'buyers' try just about every scam there is. And if you have a problem as a seller, most times feebay is absolutely no help.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Madstang on 20 Feb 2011 10:58 AM 
I have bought quite a lot on Ebay and have never really had a problem with selling or buying! I am not saying I have not had any issues with sellers, I am saying I have come to a mutual agreement with any I have had a questionable transaction with them knowing if I am not happy I could post negative feedback, I have NEVER had to go that far.








I have delt with sellers that have made honest mistakes, and are quite worried about the feedback! I have met sellers that have went WAY FAR beyond making me pleased. That were honest people and were very concerned that I was not happy and they made it right!









I also feel leaving negative feedback is like a mud slinging match and do not like to leave negative feedback, BOTH points of view are subjective at best!









If you want to play the game then we as consumers need to realize that some of it is our responsibility to make sure BEFORE we bid that the seller explained completely about the item they are selling in the first place!
By contacting the seller and asking for better pics, as I have seen some sellers that post crapy pics, but I contact them and ask them to send better ones, or ask questions about the item if I am not clear. CLEARLY and specificly asking if there is anything wrong, broken, misiing, reglued, repainted, or if it runs correctly! If I am not clear on it!

No listen very very close, if any of the above criteria is not to my satisfaction, now listen..DON'T BID!!!!!!! Plain and simple!









By not taking some responsibility we get to this point where people will not sell because of the penalties put in place by people NOT getting things cleared up before they bid...now where do we go to sell?









Bottom line if a seller CLEARLY describes their item and CLEARLY states S/H fees, CLEARLY states "SOLD AS IS...NO REFUNDS, NO RETURNS", and we do not CLEARIFY any questions we have PRIOR to bidding......is it REALLY the sellers fault?









IMHO
Bubba

Bubba just to clarify one of your points, I am an honest ebayer, and I describe to the best of my ability, and knowledge about every item, as I do NOT want any problems. MY site or account when I list anything has always had the "No Returns Policy" clearly stated on each auction!! It doesn't matter if someone disputes an item, and ebay decides to take that up just like in my case the guy didn't want anything, and or to return it, and fixed it BEFORE he filed the dispute!!

but ebay took up the dispute and told him he could return it for a full refund, and I had to pay the shipping back even when it was free shipping to begin with, Here a year ago I latched onto a unscrupulous seller on a computer the display would not even come up or light!! I got my money back but I had to pay the return shipping. So Evil Bay will always sides with the sellier, just like as seller you cannot leave negative feedback for the buyer, you can only put a reply to his negative feedback. I waited until everything was over and I had my money back, and was going to put a reply to his negative feedback, I was already locked out and couldn't do that either, so here I set with 1 negative feedback which destroys my 100% feedback no way to rebuff his statement, and I just have to endure the fact hopefully people will not let 1 negative out of over 240 + sales there. Alot of times people will not even leave feedback and then you get one jerk who does (unjustifiably)and ruins your reputation!! There is one guy on there selling trains known to us here on MLS who if you dispute him and or say anything negative about him he files a "police report" we all know him from buying and reselling, and having somewhat high prices. He's selling fa/fb/fa sets and phoenix decoders, go read his feedback site. Kind of interesting and there were a few posts on here awhile back. Regal


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

When I sell an item I sell the item....AS IS NO REFUNDS NO RETURNS..not because I am trying to hide something, as I have had to make things right only 1 time. It is because as Mik stated, I have heard some buyers try to pull fast ones.

If I state CLERALY AS IS NO REFUNDS NO RETURNS, and I CLEARLY state about the item.....they get what it is...NO questions! Or again do not bid! 

If my stating clearly scares off potential bidders...well so be it! I am honest I expect the same, but also realize there are people that are not! So I will try to protect myself against that...try anyway!

If I do not like the shipping fees, again...I DO NOT BID! 

I have passed up many things because I did not like something! Like buying a car, you must be able to walk away from it..OR they got ya!

Bubba


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

We plan to eventually move to a smaller home, so I'm in the process of tearing down my indoor layout and selling my trains on eBay.


More than half of the rolling stock has been sold. By and large I feel I've gotten fair prices; some folks have paid much more than I thought they would, and other folks have gotten bargains.

I'll soon have a lot of LGB track to sell.

I try to make sure my listings are crystal clear, and I include lots of photos.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Bubba again Ebay don't care what you put in your ad/auctions, if a buyer wants to challenge you they don't care about your disclaimer, When you accept evil bay's terms to sell you have no recourse other than to accept what they tell you or say you are gonna do. The only remedy is to stay away completely!! Tthey will side with the buyer every time against you freeze your paypal acct. until resolved one way or another usually not if favor of you no matter how honest you are, and whatever your disclaimer is in your auction site!! Go read their new ebay protection policy now since they got away from using PreyPal as their warranty or buyer protection plan. Even though Evil Bay and PreyPal have the same ownership!! Which they will dance around if you call em on it. Regal


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Everybody loves eBay until a transaction goes sour and then they invariably run to one of the online discussion forums (and I mean EVERY online train forum, not just this one) to describe in great detail how they were screwed. After years of reading such stuff, almost on a daily basis, you would think that people would learn.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

True Allen, either learn, or not worry about the one or two things that went south in my 12 years and hundreds of buy/sells that went without a hitch. 

I have had more mail order and store vendor problems than eBay problems honestly in the same period of time (wrong item, overcharged, condition not as listed, overcharged shipping, never got the items, craptacular packaging, etc.).


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

well, i am a content ebay customer. 
i never sold anything, just bought. 

by using a simple set of selfimposed rules - up till now - i never had problems. 

1) i don't buy from sellers with less than about a thousand sales and a rating below 99%. 
2) i look up shippingcost. if it is not stated, i abstain. 
3) i ALWAYS get in contact with the seller before bidding. 
4) i write down my limit and stick to it. (even if i have to wait months, before something similar/same turns up again. 

that way i get what i want for a cost i am willing to pay. no reason for discontentness.


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

Spule and kormsen, you are making sense with a logical and well thought out approach...Stop it.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Pterosaur, don't worry, the eBay topic hits about monthly.  

Good tips from Korm, I follow most outside of the feedback/sales one. I have had some good transactions with some noobs including buying/selling automobiles.


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## curlyp (Sep 4, 2009)

Madstang, blueregal and Mik,
You bring up good points about your reasons for no returns. I guess to clarify how I shop, if the ad states no returns I will look at lot closer at the item if I really want it. Are the pictures clear and show all sides. What kind of comments are left on the feedback ratings. How reasonable are the shipping charges. And if I need more info I ask questions. As I said I have been buying and selling since ebay started and I have only had one item that was not as described but the seller made good on it including the shipping costs. 
The biggest hassel is the cost. Between ebay and paypal they get at least 10%.

Happy Training.

Paul


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Kim reminded me of this; Has anybody else had a bozo win an auction, come to pick it up in person, and try to negotiate a lower price? Or am I just "lucky"? -- It's happened twice in the last 5 years.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By curlyp on 21 Feb 2011 11:11 AM 
Madstang, blueregal and Mik,
You bring up good points about your reasons for no returns. I guess to clarify how I shop, if the ad states no returns I will look at lot closer at the item if I really want it. Are the pictures clear and show all sides. What kind of comments are left on the feedback ratings. How reasonable are the shipping charges. And if I need more info I ask questions. As I said I have been buying and selling since ebay started and I have only had one item that was not as described but the seller made good on it including the shipping costs. 
The biggest hassel is the cost. Between ebay and paypal they get at least 10%.

Happy Training.

Paul 

Try 12% total between the two. 9% on evil bay and 3% on PreyPal, and just a reminder even if you buy from someone who has " no returns accepted, or all sales final if you are the buyer, and think something is amiss Ebay will support you fully even though guy who's auction you bought from says those disclaimers they will go after the seller anyway. Just make sure you have something valid that you are complaining about of not as described and or such!!!! Regal


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 21 Feb 2011 02:54 PM 
Kim reminded me of this; Has anybody else had a bozo win an auction, come to pick it up in person, and try to negotiate a lower price? Or am I just "lucky"? -- It's happened twice in the last 5 years. 
Lucky I guess Mik. Not on my watch, and cash or bank checks even on cars.

I have had a few dips**ts that could not figure out to pay for things. Buyers from some countries (and types of items) are worse than others.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 21 Feb 2011 08:03 PM 
Posted By Mik on 21 Feb 2011 02:54 PM 
Kim reminded me of this; Has anybody else had a bozo win an auction, come to pick it up in person, and try to negotiate a lower price? Or am I just "lucky"? -- It's happened twice in the last 5 years. 
Lucky I guess Mik. Not on my watch, and cash or bank checks even on cars.

I have had a few dips**ts that could not figure out to pay for things. Buyers from some countries (and types of items) are worse than others. 



Thats one of the reasons they switched to PayPal only, like it or not. Before you could end up with fake checks, fake MOs, jackwagons showing up 10 dollars short "Oh I'm sorry I thought I had it all when I left, I forgot I bought coffee on the way" I tell them "Thats OK there is a ATM just up the street on the corner, it will still be here when you get back"... this last one is a big problem with Craigslist, all the scammers and jackwagons that got tossed off Ebay are now trolling Craigslist with their old tricks.

I only sell Continental US anymore, no international sales - I dont care how bad someone in Warsaw might want it, I aint shipping it. I had two bad experiences with international buyers one in Poland, the other in Canada - combined with previous hastles shipping internationally and I just said No More!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic, that may be one of the reasons they *gave*. But I still think it has more to do with dinging you for the additional 3% in fees. One of the biggest lies on the web is their slogan about it being the "favorite way to pay, and get paid". Basically, you put a gun to somebody's head to make them accept it, then you say it's their "favorite"? Yeah, sure.

Aaaaand then it takes 1 day to transfer money IN, but 4 days out? Did you ever wonder why? They act like a bank, but they aren't. They'll even send you a debit card. But since they are not, if your money disappears you are SoL.


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

"favorite way to pay, and get paid" 

It's my favorite.  I love PayPal.. I've been using it since before it was called PayPal... As a "seller" I have had absolutely zero problems. (I've only sold a few items on eBay, but 90% of 1st class membership payments are PayPal) I knew going into it that there would be fees, but accepting any type of credit card incurs fees. It's as someone said, the cost of doing business. If you have a problem with eBay's fees, you need to build those fees into the minimum that you will accept for the purchase of your item. Just as your grocery store has to build the cost of their facilities to sell items into their prices, so should you. Someone complaining that eBay's fees are too high, are not pricing their items high enough.. IMHO.. 

To be honest, I cringe every time I see these eBay topics. They've been popping up a lot lately. "Look what these idiots are bidding for on eBay", or "look what this dolt is trying to pass off as brand X on eBay".. Besides the fact that pretty much everyone knows this stuff goes on over there, I think it's pretty pointless dribble to be posting in the forums. It's right up there with chain letters, virus, and phishing warnings.. They are pointless posts. In addition, these "down with eBay" posts are biting the hand that feeds in a convoluted way.. The eBay advertising on this site pays a substantial amount of the cost to keep MLS online. I've been saving the advertising fees to make some substantial upgrades as well. I fear that too many of these types of threads will discourage people from clicking on the ads and making purchases, thereby affecting the income that MLS receives from said ads. (So far that hasn't happened, but I worry nonetheless.)


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I wouldn't worry, Shad, I make fun of eBay myself, but I just paid for something I won, and shipped four items I sold last week. It's a lot like complaining about your job, just something to talk about, I guess. And, hey, if a little good old fashioned ridicule gets someone to take the time to search for an item's price before bidding on it, so much the better! 

BTW, I click on the eBay links pretty much every time I come here... 

Thanks! Robert


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

The last time I clicked on an ebay link through this site I got an LGB B&M boxcar with metal wheels for $28.50. I was more than happy to use ebay and Pay-Pal. I owe most of my collection to both! 

Oh, shipping was $12.00...So $40.50 total. Still quite happy.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ShadsTrains on 22 Feb 2011 12:49 PM 
Someone complaining that eBay's fees are too high, are not pricing their items high enough.. IMHO.. 

Try asking a starting price anywhere near even 2/3 what it's really worth and ebay gets your listing fees and you get no bids. I only wish the deep pocket guys would bid crazy on my stuff. I usually just get the bargain hunters and just plain cheap guys. When their precious profits started to drop a few years back, ebay COULD have chosen to cut the fees and make it up in volume. Instead, they chose to squeeze the little guys for more. That there's a LOT less stuff on there now should tell somebody that a lot of sellers voted with their feet.

When ebay makes nearly twice what I do (till you figure in cost) on over half the things I've listed, I think I've got a right to be just a little bit annoyed. Just like you have the right to say you don't wanna hear about it on your board. I'll not post on the subject again, but not because I suddenly love epay and preypal, but as to not annoy you as our gracious host. 

Selling stuff there is just a necessary evil when I need some extra money to pay the bills with for me anymore.


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Try asking a starting price anywhere near even 2/3 what it's really worth and ebay gets your listing fees and you get no bids. 

I think people get too attached to what they think an item is "worth". "Worth" isn't what you paid for it 5 years ago, nor is it necessarily what a book says the value is. I learned several years ago as a teen dealing with vinyl records that "worth" is what someone will pay for it right now. Is a railcar that sits on a shelf in a hobby store for 5 years because it is priced at a certain price really worth that asking price? I would argue not. Perhaps someday it will fetch that price, but it may take a really long time. The same holds true on eBay. If you really want $50 for an item because you feel it's worth that much, and you expect someone to pay $57 plus shipping to cover your costs, you're not living in reality (unless you undervalued the item, which I dare say is the exception and not the rule.) If the total bid comes out to $50 and you only end up with $43 in pocket, you blame eBay for you not getting your $50 because of the fees. Or, after all the bids the price ends up at $45 thus cutting your final price to $38 after fees, you feel you're getting a bad deal. I would argue that you got what the item was worth. In the end, the buyers decide what an item is worth and will pay that price. This is especially true on eBay and in auctions in general. 

Ultimately, I guess what I am saying is, if you have a set amount that you want to get for an item, don't list it on eBay. Put it in the classifieds here, send out a note to your local club and see if there are any local takers. If you want to set the price and thus worth of the item, don't put it up for auction. If you don't mind taking perhaps a little less, and think that there is a possibility that the item will sell for more that you want, and want to let the market decide what the price is, then put it out on eBay or another auction site. But if you do that, don't expect sympathy, as you knew going in what the fees would be.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Shad, what is YOUR time really "worth"? Maybe 29c an hour? Less? Is a handbuilt item really actually 'worth' LESS than the cost of just the parts? If those are both true, then you are right.
If a brand new, unopened item is worth 20% LESS than the WHOLESALE, not retail cost, you're right.

I spent ten years as a vendor of live steam stuff. Many folks had just that attitude. "Those used to be $X"..... Yes, they were... back in 1968! So that's still all they're worth? Maybe if you still made 1968 wages.... If you're not, then why should I? 


I did not and do NOT overprice stuff, but I've found that cutting your own throat doesn't do any good either. There's simply too many folks out there happily willing to do it for you. I offer a fair deal, but if you're looking for a 'steal', then I'm the one with a warped sense of value? Um, gee thanks.


And I'd use your classifieds if I could afford the entry fee. But I often have enough trouble in justifying a few dollars in parts at the beginning of the month, when we may well be out of food by the 25th. (Happened in January - all we had left was rice, until the church gave us a $25 voucher) Your 1st Class membership fee is fair, but I just usually ain't got it. Since I wold prefer that it was $5, should I then tell you that your rate is "unrealistic", "too high" or claim you're "trying to rip me off"? I don't think that way.


Feebay, however, continues to offer less and less to the sellers while charging more and more. It's just that simple. You'd earn that criticism if you jumped the first class rate to $40 and cut out the perks too.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

I think Shad hit the nail on the head when her referred to 'value'. Buying and Selling on eBay is all base on 'perceived value'. What the seller perceives the value is usually demonstrated in his opening bid listing. The 'perceived value' on the part of the seller is reflected in the closing bid. As for the fees, they are in business to make a profit, and their costs rise just like ours do. Proportunately, I doubt it. As in all things, the end consumer bears the brunt of the increases. Are eBay fees fair, I don't know, I don't sell yet. As a point of reference, a coworker tells me his sister makes a 60-75K per year income from selling on eBay, so there is money to be made somewhere. Maybe we are just in the wrong product line. Perception is everything. 

Unfortunately I live in an area with NO LHS within 50 miles, and they don't carry any LS of any manufacturer, so eBay and other mail order sources are my major suppliers. And keep in mind, as the mail order houses and LHS's go out, the pricing of ALL hobby materials will increase, simply supply and demand (coupled with supply line price increases, etc.). 

There are several small train related auction sites out there, but they certainly don't have the following that eBay does. I check them out now and again and usually find somewhere between 0 and 5 LS items, and usually not what I am looking for. Mik, I don't disagree with you either in regards to being the vendor, most people are looking for a bargain, who isn't? Our hobby is arguably the most expensive in model railroading, but also offers the largest opportunity for minimal costs. I am always amazed at your resoursefulness in utilizing what is at hand. I wish I had your eye for that. For the most part one can scratch build most rolling stock and structures with standard carpentry/cabinet making tools. That is why I chose LS, I don't have to buy EVERYTHING, just the motive power. Not so in the smaller scales. 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C.


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