# I need help with Airwire/P5/battery install PLEASE



## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

* Hello all,*
*
Well I think I have done it. I let the smoke out of my Airwire reciever(decoder), in laymans terms I fried it. I am pretty handy with the tools and basic electronics know how but I fumbled on this one. This is very discouraging conidering I have wired more locomitives, RC cars and boats, and so on without ever frying anything. 
This is what I am working with. I have a Airwire reciever(decoder), Phoenix P5, and a 14.4 volt battery all to be installed in a brass tender. I followed all the instructions. All components where isolated from the metal frame of the tender. The decoder I mounted with velcro tape as well I mounted the P5 the same way. I hooked everything up according to the directions. I made sure my polarity was correct, double, triple checked it going to the decoder. Placed the jumber just like the Airwire says. I confirmed all my hook ups from the decoder to the P5 where just like the direction shown. I flipped the switch and within seconds I had a puff of smoke and orange glow emitting from the decoder. Prior to my fatal test I had not done the following. I did not make any connections to lights, chuff trigger or the motor. I did connect a volt meter to the motor posts on the Airwire decoder, just for testing purposes. 
I did manage to gather conflicting direction on hooking up the P5. According to the Phoenix instructions there is two green wires coming off P5 that connect to terminal 4&5 on the Airewire, I connected those. As well there is two power leads being connected to the same power source as the Airwire. In my case that would be the 14.4 volt battery. From what my the supplier that sold me everything says the P5 gathers power from the Airwire through the DCC leads at terminal 4&5 on the Airewire decoder board and I should not have connected the P5 to the power source at all. 
Is this true? If this is true could that have caused me to destroy the decoder? If it is, then the direction that came with the Phoenix are misprinted. * * I did contact Phoenix and they tell me the hook up I did for the P5 was correct and should not have caused the problem. I tried contacting CVP Products (maker of the Airwire). They do not answer the phone all day yesterday or today and have not called me back. Slight disappointment there. * 
*After I realized what had happened I tried in vaine to track my err down. No luck. I disconnected everything. I also attempted to test the P5, like the Phoenix instruction tell you to, and it appears that it could be fried as well. I hooked up my battery and speaker like the Phoenix direction show and get nothing, not a peep out of the speaker. Tried the volumn up and down and nothing. * 
*Below is a top view of the decoder with the pen marking the part that smoked.*









*Below is the bottom view of the decoder with pen marking the part that smoked & burned.*








* I need help, I do not want to do this again. If you have installed similar to mine and can put on a scratch pad a basic wiring diagram I would appreciate all the help. I do have another Airwire decoder coming as well I have a Phoenix 2K2 (holding off on the P5 for now) I will be useing on my second attempt.
Again thanks for your help. I can use all the advise I can get. 
Glen








*


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Glen,
Sounds from your explanation of connections that you did everything right,except maybe a fuse between the battery and the decoder. I have never used the alternate connection for powering the P5. Other than that I have done at least 2 dozen installs without anything like that happening. One of the first things I do with a new decoder is mark the + and - terminals with red and black markers as a reminder,but it sounds like you checked your connections. Did you do it with a voltmeter or just visually? Thats the only thing I can think of is that the power was reversed. I don't think the extra power connection to the P5 would have done it. I don't know if the P5 is protected on the alternate power input from a reversal with a bridge rectifier or not. The Airwire decoder is not. Keep trying CVP, Al should have some help.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Ouch, that was expensive smoke. I am by no means an expert, but have put a couple of Airwire/P5 combos together, and the only power connection when using DCC/Airwire is the two green wires from Airwire 4,5 to C1 1 and 2 on the P5, shown here:









From your description, I think your second power connection feed back through the P5 onto the Airwire, and yes, probably toasted both. Hope the next install goes better. Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it sure appears that power was supplied to the P5 twice, and most likely opposite polarity, there will not be any polarity on the P5 track inputs. 

That should have melted down the power sections on both units. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have seen that happen. First of all, you only need to connect the 2 DCC wires from the AirWire to the P5. There is no need to connect the battery to the P5. If you short the DCC output, it can cause what you describe. Hooking your extra power wires could have done that.

Take your time and wait for CVP to call you. In most cases, they can fix your AirWire receiver.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Thank you all,* * Since I had written the post earlier today. Both Phoenix and CVP got back to me. Both manufacters will take a look at my toasted electronics and advise if they can be fixed. *

* I feared that I had done what you are all saying by connecting the power supply directly to the P5. Not to point blame on anyone manufactere, but if I refer to the directions of the Phoenix P5 on pg 17 clearly shows power leads coming off the battery and feeding direclty into the P5. As well it shows the normal DCC connections going from the P5 to DCC posts on the Airwire decoder. *
*I hope they can be fixed. They where, as you all know, a big investment. *

*Thanks again,* *Glen*


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I certainly hope so too. I never paid any attention to the P5 manual. I just hooked them up the easy way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The idea was "backup" battery to the phoenix, and a DIFFERENT power supply to the DCC decoder. 

In common use, like on DC track voltage, people hook a battery to the P5 so it will keep making sound when the train stops. 

Then you connect "track" or in this case "battery" power to the airwire controller, and let the airwire power the P5, like track voltage would. 

By trying to use the same battery, and getting polarity not "right", it seems to have created a short circuit. 

I think it might have worked, but need AirWire to confim this specific installation. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg. 

The P5 does not run on regular DC track power. There is no provision for a back up battery. 
The P5 is designed for DCC track power or battery power. 
I believe what you are thinking of is the P2k2 which has no morphed into the PB9. These do have back up batteries for use with regular track power.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I refer you to the P5 manual. C1 6 & 7 are for alternate power input.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bill Swindell on 01/22/2009 9:17 PM
Tony, I refer you to the P5 manual. C1 6 & 7 are for alternate power input. 


Hi Bill.

Yes you are correct.

However, the only problem is every one of the dozen or so P5's I have had though do NOT have the Violet or Black wires on the plug in connector for C1. 
They only ever have the two green and two brown wires in the plugs in the kits I have had.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I looked at the site, and Phoenix has a diagram with the battery power going to the AirWire receiver AND the P5 AND also the wires between the AirWire and the P5. 

So, that is a supported configuration, all I can guess is maybe you got the polarity wrong. Page 17 shows this. 

If you followed that diagram (which does not actually identify all the connection "names") nothing should go wrong. 

It appears C1 should be positive (and connect to Airwire 5) and C2 negative (and connect to airwire 4) in this diagram, but it's unclear the polarity of the AirWire 4 and 5... 

I went to the AirWire site, and they do not define the polarity of these pins, page 2 says output A and output B, but page 9 shows a red wire to pin 4, and a black wire to pin 5. Page 15 again shows these same colors associated with pins 4 and 5. Finally page 16 shows the same color wires, but now, looking at the schematic, pin 4 REALLY APPEARS to be a ground in this schematic. 

So if pin4 is ground, and pin5 is positive, then it goes against the polarity the P5 requires. 

It looks to me if I have not made a mistake, that the wiring diagram on the Phoenix site is incorrect, and would put the wrong polarity into the P5 inputs. That sure seems like a bad thing. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gregg,
Under normal circumstances the Airwire DCC output on pins 4 & 5 is not polarity sensitive. It can be connected either way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The situation I see is not the airwire output, but the input to the P5... which has defnite polarity requirements... 

Check out the pages I indicated and see if you do not see the same thing... 

The P5 is definite about the polarity on it's input. The Airwire is NOT definite about it's polarity on the output, but it seems to be as I stated.... 

(inputs can be polarity sensitive, outputs are, well, outputs) 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg. 

Unless the consumer actually insert wires themselves into # 6 & # 7 on the Phoenix P5 C1 plug, it is not possible to hook the AW and P5 together where Phoenix show.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

* At least I am not the only one who sees the discrepency in the directions of the Phoenix. *

* Tony-The violet & black wire where sent with my P5. The directions of the Phoenix show them being use, I used them. OUCH!!!*

* Gregg-Thanks for your research. It seems you have found out what I found out the hard way.*

* Further information has come from the supplier that sold me the equipment. Apparently I should have not made any additional power hook ups for the P5. The DCC (Green) wires coming off the P5 carry all the power requirments from the Airwire post 4&5 to the P5. *

* You would think that at least one of the two manufacterers would get the directions correct. * 
*Keep you all posted on the repairs. Thanks again.*

*Glen*


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Glen. 

Were the two wires part of the C1 plug when it arrived from Phoenix?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gregg,
Beg to differ,but the non color coded pair of green wires from the P5 can be connected either way to terminals 4 & 5 on the decoder,works fine. Same thing with the TCS FL4 decoder for lights. I don't pay any attention to it, just put a good tight twist on the wires and connect them. If you are trying to use the Aux power connection,then it might make a difference, can't say, but I'm sure not going to try and find out the hard way.

Tony, I have received some P5's that have the aux power leads attached to the plug. 

I'm going to toss something else in here that I read sometime back but of course can't find again. So,it must be taken with that in mind. I believe the extra power connection for the P5 is supposed to keep the operating voltage to the P5 at an operable level when the Airwire decoder is under a heavy load to its motor outputs,that might draw down the power enough so that the power to the DCC output is not sufficient for the P5. Wish I could remember where I saw that.


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Tony,*
* The wires where sent loose in the package. I just mailed everything back to CVP & Phoenix. Both CVP & Phoenix seem to think they can fix them. Got my fingers crossed. *
* Tonight I will be installing a Airwire & 2K2 comdo. Dare I ask should I follow the instructions again. Any pointers on that install?*

*Thanks again for your help*

*I am so glad I joined MLS. If it was not for the help all of you provide I would go NUTZ.*

*Glen*


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Glen,
Don't give up on the P5,they are a great match with Airwire.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, 

Let's break this down step by step. 

Let's start with the P5. On page 5 of the August 2008 manual, C1:6 and C1:7 are alternate power inputs, and the input polarity is specified. + on 6, - on 7. 

Do you agree so far? 

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

If you use only the DCC inputs to the P-5, there is NO polarity issue with the AirWire receiver. The problem probably occurred because of the hookup of the aux power input wires.

As far as the 2K2, do NOT bother with the battery/power inputs. Also, you don't need the external battery. Hook the track inputs of the 2K2 into the DCC outputs on the AirWire. By the way, the P5 is a much nicer setup. I don;t even install the volume witches any more since the volume is controllable from the AirWire transmitter.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, that's where I was going Bill... but the P5 does specify polarity on the aux inputs... and I would guess that it HAS to be that the AirWire receiver is putting DC out on it's outputs. Since it's running from battery, it has no access to AC, it must be DC. Thus the opportunity to have the wrong polarity somewhere... 

Bill on the 2k2 and AirWire setup, does the AirWire always leave "enough" voltage on the DCC outputs so the the 2k2 stays powered all the time? It probably seems obvious to most people, but I'd just like to confirm. If you have the time, could you confirm any "polarity" on the DCC outputs? Maybe the AirWire does not use "AC" but just modulated DC on these outputs. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Once the AirWire receives any DCC input, it continues to provide output even after the DCC input ends. 

I spoke with Phoenix when I first worked with 2K2's on an AirWire receiver. I asked about the need for aux batteries or battery input. The answer is no, it's not needed. I have installed 2K2's withnothing for input but the AirWire DCC input. It works fine and continues to provide sounds even after the transmitter is turned off.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

See now, if you had used the QSI sound decoder you would have less work and wouldn't have burnt up anything.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Glen, heres hoping they come through for you. Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It really appears that the extra power inputs to the P5 are not necessary, but I know that the AirWire DCC output has a limit of about 1 amp. Possibly the P5 could draw more power at high volumes? 

I need more technical data on the AirWire DCC output, but in any case, so far, I stand by my theory. If Paul comes back and finds an error, then we can proceed. 

The reason I am persuing it, is that if there is a schematic error from AirWire that caused the damage, then I would think they would be more likely to replace the melted hardware at no charge. 

Regards, Greg


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Greg,* 
* Being totally green to DCC & Airewire it is good to here that you are seeing things, at least on the onset, the way I am. As stated in the beginning of the thread I am totally capable of working through the directions provided with more then enought basic electrical knowledge to accomplish this install. My problem is the directions are incorrect and leed to the destruction of the electrics. The pototential dilema I have is that each mfg can easily say "well our information is correct, your problem is with the other guys directions". I do not think it will come to that point considering all information is printed in black and white on both mfg directions supplied with the equipment. *
* The thing that is really funny, at least on my end. Is that I am the first person this happened to???????? I know most guys do not read the dirctions but this is strange. *

*NOTE: Greg you noted that the output of the DCC output on the Airwire is capable of only 1 amp of power. You are 100% correct. I questioned my supplier about that very same fact. I was told that in his experiance he has had only a few people overload the Airwire with the P5 and damaged it. *

* All should take note that I am dedicated to converting my equipment over to Airewire DCC. I think it is a excellent system. So much so that during this whole ordeal I have already ordered and recieved two additional Airewire decoders for other locomotives. *

*Everyone have a good weekend*

*Glen*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think I have made an error, the DCC outputs are going to the DCC inputs on the P5. Those inputs should be polarity insensitive. 

The aux inputs on the P5 are polarity sensitive. 

I think the 1 amp limitation is why AW says to use the aux power inputs on the P5. 

If you did not accidentally connect power backwards on the P5 aux intputs, my theory is that there is somewhere where a path between ground and positive exists with this hookup, between the battery power in, and the DCC connection... 

I wish you the best of luck in getting these fixed for the least cost. 

Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greeg,
That is what I was saying,the DCC output is not polarity sensitive but when you try and use the aux power there could be interaction and like I said I'm not going to try and find out the hard way. I never have used the Aux power and would like to see an answer from Phoenix as to why they think it is needed. After all,they are the ones that provided the connection drawing. All I know is that mine all work fine without it and most are using both the P5 and FL4 in parallel off the DCC output. I believe the next generation of Airwire decoders will have more power available from the DCC output.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you are right Paul, and I think I was looking at pins 1&2 on the AW instead of the C:1 and C:2 on the P5 as I was switching screens back and forth. 

I guess a P5 might draw over an amp, since (and DC is not really a way to check this) but 5 watts could require about 1/2 an amp alone at 12 volts, so the P5 drawing over an amp seems possible. 

That's my only guess now, but I suspect there is a "sneak path" past the input bridge in the P5 DCC inputs, and this with the multiple power connections to the P5 allowed the short. 

Hmmm... 


Regards, Greg


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentleman: The P5 at full chat can draw significant current. Phoenix boards are polyphonic and so the current draw can vary quickly if bells, whistle,chuff etc are all on at the same time. With that stipulated, the Airwire DCC aux output is capable of one amp and is not current limited. In literally hundreds of installs and client assist episodes,I have seen the Airwire Dcc aux outputs blown in only a very rare handful of cases. So, it can happen but does not happen very often. There is a fix for this in that the Phoenix software has a programming option where in you can limit the power the board will draw. Simply set the slider to a value of 2w or less, and you will be fine generally. The 2k2 actually has a current value specified in its software, and this should be set to 900 - 950 ma. When using the Airwire DCC aux to provide both DCC signal intelligence and power to the p5 setting the limit in the software should be mandatory. When I program for folks,I always do this . It really has no effect on the performance of the p5 or the 2k2. If you choose to provide separate power input to the sound board as outlined in the manual diagrams, the the current drain to the Dcc aux output becomes negligible as the Phoenix will immediately sense this second connection and look for power directly. I have had clients use this second connection and end up accidentally ending up with voltage present from the power circuit back at the Dcc aux connections, pins 4 and 5 on the airwire, through incorrect configuration. For example, if the dcc signal and a power lead pair are spliced together or screwed together on the same pins 1 and 2 of the sound board. In the case of the p5, the harness is provided with a pair of green wires for DCC input but no separate power connection should be made. These wires will carry internal DCc signals and DCC aux power from AW 4 and 5 only. Any other connection on these 2 green wires will cause failure, but is correctable in most cases. 
Using the DCc ouputs for power will also still allow the sound to remain active when the train is stationary if the Phoenix start settings are set correctly, as then simply cracking the speed control ever so slightly will provide a dcc signal that wakes up the Phoenix. In the case of a steam engine, the turbo generator will start up immediately and remain on , as an example , until the throttle is closed fully . 
jonathan/EMW


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

One more point: Glen your fear that each MFGer will point fingers the other way will not happen, no way.I can flat guarantee 100% that will not happen. Your problem will be corrected to your satisfaction. 

Jonathan/EMW


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great info Jonathan! 

I have a few more questions: 

You did not state it exactly like this, but I'm reading the P5 can have it's max current set the same way as the 2k2, to a milliamp rating? 

Just to be sure, when there is power on the aux power to the P5, then it "switches" to a mode where the current draw from the P5's DCC inputs is negligible? 

Also, the green wires on the harness provided with the P5, what pins are they connected to? 

Again, very helpful, and I will be sure to remember the current limiting settings on the Phoenix hardware. 


Regards, Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gregg,
With the P5 plugged into the computer there is a setinng for the maximum output in watts. I ALWAYS make sure it is set to no more than 2 watts for my Airwire installs. The green input wires are connected to the plug that connects to C1 on pins 1 & 2.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I always set my power ratings to at least 3 watts. In some cases, I have set it to full power although 4 or 5 watts seems to be a better setting. I might have screwed up some AirWire DCC outputsbut never by using a properly wired and working P5.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, I guess it really depends on the output voltage at the DCC output. 

If the voltage of the DCC output is 18 volts, then 1 amp could drive 18 watts. 

But if, as I suspect, it's lower, let's use 5 volts as an example, then 5 watts would be 1 amp. 

Anyone ever measure this on an AirWire unit? 

Regards, Greg


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## CLRRNG (Sep 26, 2008)

*Good news from Jersey today. Last night I wrapped up an install with Airwire & Phoenix 2k2. All is operational. I DID NOT install the aux battery supply for the 2k2 and opted to rely on the power provided by the DCC outputs on the Airwire. All works fine*.

* I also got word from Phoenix and they are sending my P5 back. It is in working order. Yippy. I also contacted CVP about my Airwire repairs. They are backed up with other repairs and will be another 7-10 days. Guess I am not the only one that fries Airwires.*

*Thank you all for you help* 
*Glen*


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CLRRNG on 01/30/2009 1:19 PM
*Guess I am not the only one that fries Airwires.*
*Glen*


Glen, you must have been taking lessons from me..... Da' ole decoder fryer himself...  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 

Everytime Al sees my number on his Caller ID, he answers the phone.... "Now what did you do?"


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm glad it's not just me.


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