# Reverse Loop Rant



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like a dance, doesn't it?

But here goes:

For DCC reverse loops, the best product is arguably the PSX-AR from DCC specialties -- but they don't harden it for outdoor use.
For switch motors, the best product is arguably the ProDrive from Train Li -- which takes DC signal, but the PSX-AR doesn't have quiiiiiite enough power to offer it.

So, one would think that a little bitty piggy-back board would be a standard product offering -- from Tony's Train Exchange, from Train Li, whatever. It would be designed along the lines of:
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

But, it would have all the components optimized for the task, and the board pre-made and easy to tie in.

And here's the second thing. 

Though one can force the PSX-AR into the recommended Radio Shack box, with a lot of mods, wouldn't it be nice if a less troublesome arrangement were available. For example, a larger box and a non-conductive adapter plate that allowed the board to screw onto the back panel posts -- as would be more the norm. 

And a seal for the box, and water-tight gland fittings for the cables. I'm thinking the box should be a Rose-type unit, the fittings Heyco. Why are we siliconing around zip cables coming out of non-weatherproof boxes? (


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Y'know, I'm a confirmed battery R/C guy and don't really know a lot about DCC but those sound like some pretty cogent arguments! It should be interesting to read some of the answers from more knowledgeable people on this subject.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes the radio shack box needs modding, I put a router bit in my drill press and did it in about 8 minutes. 

What you have to remember is that this is NOT a large scale only product, but used by many scales, we even use the same product in Z scale. In all the other scales, virtually no one wants an enclosure, we mount them on standoffs and we would be mad if we were forced to buy an enclosure. 

This unit is inexpensive compared to other offerings, yet much more capable, so no box supplied, nor wanted in general. 

We always have to remember that we are a tiny market compared to HO, N, O ... 

I don't like leaving mine out, because I have found there is no such thing as weather proof, water proof.... weather resistant and water resistant yes.... and even humidity can be "pumped into" an enclosure in the sun. 

I like putting it in a "resistant" box, and then inside a trackside structure, or in my case, I can locate it in my main power stack since I use very heavy gauge wire. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I also use the Radio Shack box but I also have the unit in a way side structure. As Greg mentioned nothing is totally water proof. I live in a hot and humid area plus this year the rain has been more than we need. My failure rate for the Train-Li and PSX over a period of a couple of years is not good. I think the switch motor it self could be improved and a bit more robust. When companies advertise to be safe for out door use I think one would not have to cover or remove them during bad weather. Little misleading I would say. Later RJD


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Jul 2013 07:46 AM 
Yes the radio shack box needs modding, I put a router bit in my drill press and did it in about 8 minutes. 

What you have to remember is that this is NOT a large scale only product, but used by many scales, we even use the same product in Z scale. In all the other scales, virtually no one wants an enclosure, we mount them on standoffs and we would be mad if we were forced to buy an enclosure. 

This unit is inexpensive compared to other offerings, yet much more capable, so no box supplied, nor wanted in general. 

We always have to remember that we are a tiny market compared to HO, N, O ... 

I don't like leaving mine out, because I have found there is no such thing as weather proof, water proof.... weather resistant and water resistant yes.... and even humidity can be "pumped into" an enclosure in the sun. 

I like putting it in a "resistant" box, and then inside a trackside structure, or in my case, I can locate it in my main power stack since I use very heavy gauge wire. 

Greg Understood Greg.

Mainly I was suggesting that someone (not DCCS) might want to offer a simple kit of the stuff. But you're right, we're a niche market, and DCC is a fraction of that, and users of PSX-AR's and Prodrives is a miniscule user base. 

So, you don't leave them out... hmm... Well, I just got those "deans plugs," and maybe the easy removal of these boxes & boards is their first application... 

I've also parked my boxes in roadside buildings. 

BTW, I used the term "rant" in good humor...









Thanks, 
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 18 Jul 2013 11:47 AM 
I also use the Radio Shack box but I also have the unit in a way side structure. As Greg mentioned nothing is totally water proof. I live in a hot and humid area plus this year the rain has been more than we need. My failure rate for the Train-Li and PSX over a period of a couple of years is not good. I think the switch motor it self could be improved and a bit more robust. When companies advertise to be safe for out door use I think one would not have to cover or remove them during bad weather. Little misleading I would say. Later RJD RJ,
Do you remove your box & drives when not in use?
And how do you control your ProDrive, with the PSX, DCC, or DC switch, or...? 
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 17 Jul 2013 08:11 PM 
Y'know, I'm a confirmed battery R/C guy and don't really know a lot about DCC but those sound like some pretty cogent arguments! It should be interesting to read some of the answers from more knowledgeable people on this subject. Thanks Steve!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

tWell, again, the box is very easy to mill out so the board sits down in it: 











There are also optional components, this one has the heat sinks and the warning buzzer.

Again, this is sold to all scales from Z to G, and only G wants a weatherproof enclosure, so I'm not irritated that I needed 8 minutes to mill the ribs inside off with a router bit and drill 2 holes. The lid now fits on fine.

It drops in, no forcing required. Not much clearance for heyco glands, but I guess I could do that, and use round cable. A simple squirt of silicon would seal the holes above and to take it apart, loosen the screws, pull the wire from the silicon.

But, as I said, it's more difficult to handle humidity buildup in sealed boxes that are not airtight. you can drill small drain holes in the bottom 4 corners.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, 

I'd forgotten about the humidity & drain holes... 

So while my R-B box idea is expensive (~$20 for the size we're talking about) and not necessarily useful here, I'll just mention something for future reference. I've used these in poolside design applications, and they seem robust. Their integral oring seal in the lid is quite nice, and the fasteners don't penetrate into the interior at all. 
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/090816090/902-1203-ND/2300823 
http://www.rose-bopla.com/PDF_Files/Ch_01_Basic_Boxes/PolyCarb03-33ABS09/PC03-33_ABS09_Mar2011.pdf 

But that was just a thought. I'll be sticking with the Radio Shack boxes for this situation. 

How do you secure the lid? Silicone? Or screws & standoffs? 

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The lid will fit flush... a simple bead of silicon on top, made thin and smooth with a fingertip. 

Later to open the box, slice through with a x-acto in the gap between the metal cover and the box and it comes off easily. 

Once you carve out the insides (1/2" or 3/8" router bit in a drill press, locked to the depth you want) you have 4 internal bosses for the board to sit on and wonder of wonders, the screw holes in the board line up with the ones in the box. 

recess it as much as you can and then you will have clearance for heat sinks later if you want. 

I'd put it in the RS box, drill small weep holes in the 4 bottom corners, silicon or tape the lid in place and then put the entire thing in a building near the tracks to keep it from direct weather. When you put something black in the sunlight, the heating and cooling will create a pumping action moving air in and out, unless you get a perfect hermetic seal (forget it).... 

So, minimize the heat cool cycle by keeping it from direct sunlight, put weep holes in the bottom should you accumulate any moisture (condensation), keep it from direct rain and it should last you forever. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg for the further info. I'll be following your advice.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You should be able to find room under the board for your "adapter board" also... 

A cheap cylindrical router bit in a drill press running fast (or turn the router upside down and put the box on top of it) was the quickest way to carve out the box, but you could do it with a dremel, just a lot more work and won't get those nice flat "lands" in the corners. 

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Cilff I would keep the PSX-ARs mounted the way you have it, facing down, even with heat sinks installed it just drops in.

The reason being if there is any moisture build-up from the humidity and heat, or from rainfall ect. it will fall to the bottom of the box, away from the board, and out the drain holes.
You would have to have about 2 inches of water inside the bottom of the box before it would hit the board. The other way the water sits on the board and has to run off it and out 
the drain holes beneath it.


You can shave off a little of the stand-offs if you want the lid to be flush, but the silicone bead will keep out the water just fine.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Heat sinks up run cooler... there is a method in my madness. 

The way I have it sitting there is a good inch below the board... 

Also, the programming jumper and the leds are visible the way I mounted it. 

Mount it Ron's way and you have to completely remove the board from the box to set the programming jumper. 

Your choice, but I like being able to see the LEDs... in fact cut a piece of plexi and you can see inside to inspect for moisture and see led status. 

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Wow Greg your eyes are way better than mine if you can see those little LEDS outside in the daylight.

I like the way you did yours also but was just worried about the water sitting on the board.
Mine are just buried in the rocks and in the open not in a house or anything atm.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I can see them, and size does not have much to do with brightness







... They are very helpful for debugging, which is one of the possible reasons to open the box, besides the programming jumper.

Anyone in a high humidity situation would be wise to spend a couple of bucks and get a spray can of "conformal coating" for the board, the clear stuff. 











There are still traces on the back side too, and condensation inside will occur on ALL surfaces not just the one facing up (it's not like dew, it's like the sweat on a cold glass).










If you have enough condensation to puddle up inside, you have a much bigger problem that what you can avoid by flipping the board over to shed water... any moisture like that will destroy things earlier.

I'm liking the plexiglas cover idea, and will update mine with that.

I'd also recommend again getting the Sonalert so you can "hear" a short circuit indication.... inexpensive, both Digikey and Mouse have them I believe.

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I like that idea will have to get some for sure.
I added the alarm and heat sinks this weekend when I increased the trip voltage to lvl7.

I am very happy with the PSX-ARs and I hope more people find out how easy it is to use them,
it will go a long way in helping people run all different types of track layouts.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the additional insights.
If you don't mind, I'll consolidate my responses back on the "PSX-AR control..." thread,
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...spx#304717


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