# hole saws or circle cutter bits?



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've got several questions.

First off, I made a cam board to hold train projects for ski routing last weekend. I made the cams using a hole bit. The work didn't require extreme precision in the diameter, fortunately, as there was a lot of wiggle in the bit as it was spinning in the drill.

So my first question is, has anyone experienced wobble?


I'd like to think I went thru the problem solving steps.

1. I have 2 different sets of hole saws and the wobble occurred in both sets and all bits.


2. The wobble occurred irrespective of using a drill press or a power drill

3. The wobble occurred even though I checked tightness of the chuck and tightness of the hex bolts holding the drill bit to the hole saw


4. I checked with some woodworkers and they thought the problem might be that the geometry of the bits are not compatible with the chuck.

To me, it seems that the problem would be with #4, as I could make the fit tight but not snug, as the facings of the chucked end of the drill didn't match the facings of the chuck (does my explanation make sense?).


I'm thinking the solution would be to see if there's a different chuck that might be more compatible and one I can use for my (cheap) stand-mounted drill and my portable electric drill.

Has anyone experienced this and found solution(s)?


Second question is, perhaps I should just use my circle cutter bit, as it would give me any diameter I need and not be constrained size-wise as hole saws are? Or is there a downside to circle cutter its when compared to hole saws?

Thanks


Dave V


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## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

You answered your own question 

Cheap Drill Press. 

I learned the hard way that cheap will not work as well as quality. 

I now only buy quality and my work shows great improvement. 

Still tempted to look at bargain tables once and a while.


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to ask! What size holes ? What type Material? FORSNER bits are great to use on wood and plastic.Regarding you're chucks most likely there of the 3 tooth design ( Jacobs #33 ) the FORSNER bits should work great. I noticed that hole saws do wobble and fight you the hole way. (the shaft is hexigon, compared to round) The UNI- BIT ( found @ home crapo etc.) http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/unibit/unibit.jhtml is a must for any shop or tool box. It works from small to larger hole( hole you drilled is to small but the center hole is gone) metal is its food! look @ the size of the steps (thickness of stock) Hope this helps1 Sean


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Posted By smcgill on 17 Jul 2009 07:35 AM 
I have to ask! What size holes ? What type Material? FORSNER bits are great to use on wood and plastic.Regarding you're chucks most likely there of the 3 tooth design ( Jacobs #33 ) the FORSNER bits should work great. I noticed that hole saws do wobble and fight you the hole way. (the shaft is hexigon, compared to round) The UNI- BIT ( found @ home crapo etc.) http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/unibit/unibit.jhtml is a must for any shop or tool box. It works from small to larger hole( hole you drilled is to small but the center hole is gone) metal is its food! look @ the size of the steps (thickness of stock) Hope this helps1 Sean 

1. I tested the entire range of hole sizes and all of them from both sets produced wobble. I was drilling thru 2x4s, not pressure treated; yes, it was a workout!


2. Yes, 3 tooth chuck


3. I'm glad(?) to know I'm not the only one who has seen the wobble. I was beginning to question my sanity

4. Yes, helpful info, thanks


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

You can check in the elect. or plumbing isle for the aggressive wood boring FORSTNER bits. " http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/default.php?cPath=269_270&gclid=CPTjpLz73JsCFc5L5QodoH_e_Q " Check out the bottom of the bit and you'll see more teeth!! Let us know what worked for you! Sean


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

My purpose was to make plugs, not holes. Would a Forstner make plugs. 

I guess I should put a picture showing the plugs I made. They don't need to be precise in this application to be effective but I may eventually need something more precise. I could go out and buy a lathe but I am feeling a bit disappointed with the hole saws.


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## smcgill (Jan 2, 2008)

Ohhhhhhhhhh! No the forestner bits just chew and spit the wood out. Do they make dowels that big? You could just slice it up.Have you checked Micheal's wood dept. for wood wheels? Me thinks you're stuck with the wobblies !!!!!!!! It looks like you're helper (







) is laying down on the job!!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

SE18

I'm assuming you're speaking of the following...

















The arbor (that's the thing on the left) most have six-sided shanks (you can find 3-sided ones too), which are made that way to fit the most common 3-jawed Jacobs chuck.

First I'd check things with just the arbor and its drill bit installed in the drill, and see if there is any run-out (wobble). If this is running true, and the tip of the drill bit stays directly over one spot then the wobble isn't coming from the arbor or bit, nor is the arbor misaligned in the drill chuck. If there is a wobble and the tip of the drill bit moves around. The first thing to check is, is the arbor shank centered in the chuck (loosen the chuck slightly and reposition the arbor), next check that the set-screw that holds the pilot drill in the arbor is aligned with the flat spot on the bit's shank and tightened. Also make sure the pilot bit in the arbor is of the correct size and not of a size that's to small.

If you still have a wobble then remove the arbor from the chuck and install a 1/4" or larger twist drill in the chuck and check for the tip of the drill running true. If there is no longer any wobble, then maybe you didn't get the arbor centered in the chuck, or maybe you've got a defective arbor. If there is still wobble, then maybe the chuck is damaged or the quill bearing is worn out.

Most likely, you'll find that the arbor and its pilot bit will be running true (no wobble). Next install one of the hole saws on the arbor and in a scrap piece of wood start to drill a hole, but only drill far enough so that the cutting edge of the saw is slightly above the wood you're drilling. If the scrap piece of wood is moving slightly then the wobble is coming from arbor or drill. If the piece of wood is steady and you watch the side edge of the hole saw and it's wobbling, then the outside of the saw isn't concentric to the centerline of the arbor and drill's spindle. This is not unusual for less expensive tools, that's why the higher quality tools cost more.

If you're not trying to save and use the resulting plug that's stuck in the hole saw, then you might consider using a Forstner type bit (see below), but be prepared they cost a lot more.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, now that I see the intent is to use the plug and not the hole. Remember the name of the tool it's a "hole saw" not a plug cutter.







Anyway the don't make plug cutters that large.

There is another option, but you have to have and use the tool in a drill press. It's definately not to be used in a hand drill. The tool is a circle cutter (see image below).


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

the forstner bit's shank is round in the photo. Why in the heck is the hole saw not round? That would solve the problem. 

Steve, 

I mentioned the circle cutter and asked about the pros and cons of that vice the hole saw. 

Incidentally, my power drill has some incredible torque. When you bury the hole saw into the wood and try and reverse it, sometimes it will nearly tear your arm off. I work out at the gym, but for those who don't I can easily see their arm getting torn out of the socket. 

Incidentally, I think I used the circle cutter to do some tile to cut out a round for some plumbing work I installed


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'd look for a dowel or clothes rod (closet) and cut off slices.... 
Or plastic pipe caps 

What's a ski router?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

the forstner bit's shank is round in the photo. Why in the heck is the hole saw not round? That would solve the problem.
Because with the larger sized hole saws enough to torque could be created that would make a round shank spin in the chuck. That very same thing can happen with a forstner bit.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

SE18

What are the dimensions (i.e. daimeter & thickness) of the disks you're wanting?


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## wildbill001 (Feb 28, 2008)

Well, first great job on modeling the beagle!









Looks like a circle cutter is what you want. HOWEVER, there is also a "wheel-cutter" out there. As I have found out the hardway, the big difference is how the cutting bit is mounted. One way will give you a clean, square-to-the-surface home, the other way will give you a square-to-the-surface of the "wheel" or "Plug". Either the wheel-cutter or circle-cutter will do the same.

It does require a drill-press, relatively slow feed rate, constant clearing of chips, and a relatively slow speed on the bit. Violate any of those and you burn the cutting bit, i.e., it will turn blue and dull really, really fast.


Bill


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve & SE,

SE. I think you found the problem: dull bits/cutters/whathaveyou. Also, just to make sure you're aware of this little trick, when you chuck a bit in your chuck, don't just throw the muscle on one jaw of the chuck, go around all three and tighten them sequentially until you end up with a tight chuck.

FWIW, I've never found a hole saw as pictured that'd cut truly round holes--or plugs. Also, if you're doing that heavy a cutting in a drill press that's holding a hand drill, there's little doubt in my mind that the table, spine and everything else is flexing under the pressure, esp since you say you have a high-torque drill motor.

Steve:

I tried on of those hole saws once on a drill press. I set my press as slow as it would go and began feeding in. The bit snagged in the first turn, pulled the wood free of the clamps and bent the whole tool backwards. This was in common 3/4" fir. I took it back and got my money back. A Stanley, FWIW. If your drill press has a fine feed rate, it might do okay. Mine doesn't.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SE,

What is 'ski routing'? Also, that cam board looks to be a pretty nifty idea. The pup you routed out looks darn near real!


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi Les, 

I have another post in the tool section showing the ski jig for router, which allows the router to route with a more steady and true platform. They don't sell these so you have to make them. The experts showed me how to do it, though theirs are better. 

As for dowells, I already thought of that; I was just wondering why the wobble on the hole cutters. seems I need the chuck to match the router shank geometry. I did try and wiggle it around while chucking for snug fit. 

I went to take the photo of the cam board, btw, and when I turned around with camera, the pup was there.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Rule one: Don't try to "force" the hole saw through the material. If it's dull, get a new one. 

Rule two: Keep your work and tooling perpendicular to each other at all times. This is particulalry important when cutting from both sides of the material, such as 2X4s. This would be a situation where a good drill press is your friend. Not necessarily one of the flimsy modler's desk top units. 

The items that Steve C shows in his first picture, the round cylinders with teeth, which screw onto the arbor work very well in a decent drill press. Using a hand held drill with a 1/2" chuck is awkward, and relatively imprecise when trying to cut such big plugs (also known as hobby horse's @$$holes) 

I've got a selection of hole saws and arbors that are over thirty years old. I *can* make them perfrom poorly, but that is primarily from attacking the wood with wild abandon. 

Take your time, secure the material well, and let the tools do the work...


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave

I don't remember you stating just what size plug/disks you're wanting, but if they are some where 2" or less in diameter and up to around 3" or 4" in thickness. Then you could use a plug cutter, however, you still need to use a drill press and clamp the work piece down, and at the larger sizes they do get expensive ($200~$250 USD).

As for what they look like...


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Steve, 

That's great! Never seen one of those and yes, they do have smooth shanks where the chuck would grab. 

They do cost a pretty penny. Maybe used for core samplings? or to make plugs from expensive wood. 


As Duncan might say, they'd make even bigger hobby horse #&^^$


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