# So how many of us are there?



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

We have touched on this subject in a couple of threads recently and though not explored in any depth, it got me to wondering . . .

*How many of us are there, anyway?*

The age of steam has come and gone and those among us who were around to catch the tail end of the era, young lads and lasses back then when steam driven locomotives were mainstream and main line . . . are fading and passing all too quickly from our midst.

Personally I missed it!  

What I did catch was the very end of the era of steam-powered tugboats and passenger carrying ferry vessels , other utility vessels and merchant shipping, and the mid-point of the diesel-electric period for tugs, but such is a subject for another time and another place.

What was it that I was wondering and why start such a thread? 

Ah yes . . .

It seems to me that nearly every thread here at MLS is read by a larger number of folks than the number who actually post. Among the quiet readers, there must be people who are associated with erstwhile manufacturers as well as present day manufacturers of the stuff of our hobby . . . and some folks who may be thinking about the size of the hobby, the size of the market. Maybe some folks are considering to enter the fray - to fill a void?

Recently we have seen posts by "Aster" and "Accucraft."

While I would not be surprised to learn that Märklin, Aster and Accucraft have commissioned studies relevant to determining the size of the total available market, it would also not surprise me to learn that no such studies have been done, as the largest of the entities involved in our hobby are not all that large . . . and their pockets may not be all that deep so as to engage in such studies?

Anyway . . .

I became interested in this hobby recently and at the suggestion of some folks whose opinions I respect, I joined G1MRA and also the G1rlys yahoo group.

My G1MRA member number is just a tad over 5,000, but this total number includes folks who have passed on or are otherwise inactive. Active G1MRA membership is closer to 2,500 world-wide.

In one of the recent threads, David Leech allowed as how the total number of folks participating in this hobby worldwide is larger than I think. (I was only guessing at 3,000 or 4,000 world-wide and I am hoping that I am wrong and David is right.)

From John Waggott, we know that about 10,000 J&M carriages have been manufactured, but over a period of how many years?

I would think that some of the publishers of garden railway journals reflect on their total circulation (whatever it may be,) and wonder how many more potential subscribers there are out there?

So, if we wanted to know how many of us are there, how would we go about finding out?

The reality may discourage new folks from coming in, but it may also encourage new folks to come in, yes?

I have no idea as I write this whether this thread will turn out to be a one-page dud, but let's find out. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Joe,
I think that you have to decide 'who' is to be included in your 'how many' question.
Are you talking. live steam in general.
Just mainline steam?
Or include narrow gauge?
When I was first involved in this hobby in the 1970's, there was very little 'narrow gauge', at least from what I saw.
It appeared from I could estimate, that for each Aster loco that was sold to a G1MRA member, probably five or six went to non members.
Not a very scientific suggestion, more of a guesstimate!
It may be similar now, or maybe different, I am not sure, but maybe Andrew Pullen could give his take on it as far as Aster sales in the UK.
Anyway, from that I reckon that if indeed there were 2,000 G1MRA members, then there might be 10,000 Gauge One live steamers.
Add in the British and German manufacturers, and now with Accucraft, and in more recent times WuHu, there may indeed be an even larger number of owners of Gauge 1 live steam locomotives, maybe 15 to 20,000 world wide.
Are they all active in running their locomotives? Definitely not.
One hears of people buying one of each Aster, just to put them on a shelf.
So, back to your original question, and 'who' you actually want to count in that total.
I have said it before, and I will probably say it many more times, as long as I am enjoying my hobby, does it really matter?
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
p.s. I am surprised at J&M making such a large number of coaches, as you would think that you would see more of them around than you do. There must be a lot of heavyweights waiting for you to discover!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a VERY unscientific attempt at an estimate! 
but we have to start somewhere:

I am quite familiar with the "Garden Railroad Scene" and Gauge-1 live steam scene, of Monroe County NY.
We have 45 members in the Genesee G Gauge club, about 15 in the live steam club (with some overlap between the two clubs) and I know of other local garden railroaders who are not members of the clubs..lets estimate another 20 who are not in the club..plus several more who are into live steam only, but not electric, making my rough estimate of 80 total G-gauge hobbiests, including live steamers, in Monroe County...Monroe County is the greater Rochester, NY region, including the city itself and all the suburbs. 

Monroe county has a population of 748,813, which makes one G-gauger for every 9,360 people.

Lets use that ratio and translate to a larger population..obviously we dont want to include the entire world, all 7 billion people..large chunks of the world are not model railroaders..Lets say the "developed western world", which contains the vast majority of model railroaders overall...USA, Canada, Europe and Australia..(maybe Japan too? South America? not sure..) China makes our trains, but probably few there use them..

So adding those up, I get 1,114,000,000 population..divide by 9,360, and we get 119,000 G-gauge hobbyists in the USA, Canada, Europe and Australia..sounds plausible!

as I said, an unscientific method!  but its a start..I think Rochester is probably an average and representative sample size to use..
so, its not a horrible estimate! 
anyone have a better way to derive an estimate?

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

and I just noticed..I think Joe was asking about only Gauge-1 live steamers!  not all Garden Railroaders overall..(I never even notice what forum threads are in!  I read MLS with "active topics"...so I dont pay any attention what forum threads are in..)

So using my ratio above, im going to say 15 Gauge-1 live steamers in Monroe County..
that translates to 22,000 live steamers in the USA, Canada, Europe and Australia.

Scot


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## NeilK (Jun 17, 2013)

Scott:
Your numbers are surprisingly coincidental to what we have determined from comparing subscriptions to club memberships. The figures, however, only indicate the "active" number. The greater interest is the number of those who are on the fringe with a passive interest. Those are the ones who we would like to firmly come on board. The BIG question is, how do we do that? 

StackTalk Joe has touched on part of the issue, that of replacing the old timers with the new generation, many of which have never seen a working steam locomotive in its element. That's where it becomes really important to support any venue that will put an operating steam locomotive onto display for the younger set. The G-scale live steamers are probably the most easily accessed group for that to happen.

I'm not ready to throw in the coal scoop quite yet...


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

To answer David first, I was thinking Gauge 1 and G-scale overall, but I had live steam in my mind as a subset of the foregoing.

From the point of view or anyone considering doing something commercially, one would want to know how many large scale (not including ride-on) hobbyists are there overall and how many of these are live steamers.

I notice that the J&M stuff and the G1MRC model coaches each have in common, insulated wheels. In the case of J&M, sometimes there are lighted lamps at the tables and sometimes no lighting, but the main point is that the manufacturer can ill afford to ignore the 'electrified' folks if they want to strive for any decent volume or aim at earning a living. I notice the earlier Aster locos have insulated wheels as well, but not so with the later products.

I'd be very surprised if Scott's extrapolations turn out to be correct overall, because I think that, people who live in urban areas would not have the room nor the inclination to pursue the hobby whereas folks in the more rural areas have fewer choice for recreation. They are left only with having sex, drinking or model railroading. 

Kidding aside, there may be more real estate suitable outside cities as well and yes, there are other diversions within urban areas.

Anecdotally . . .

I live in Nassau County New York, work in The Five Boroughs and also have a place in Suffolk County. So far, I have found no indication that there are any open or advertised steam-ups or any clubs active in NYC or in Nassau and Suffolk - and we are talking a population of over 10 million souls. There is a Long Island Live Steamers club in Suffolk County, and they seem to have a sweet deal. They occupy public park land, have more than 6,000 feet of track, but all of it is ride-on stuff with no gauge 1 or "G" gauge. Their deal seems to be that they get to use the land if they open up the club for providing rides to the general public every other Saturday during the summer months. I have written them about gauge one and have not heard back.

Charles take note. No, I am not thinking of going into any aspect of this business myself, so TRS is safe. 

In another thread, someone suggested approaching Accucraft with supporting research to stimulate them into at least considering commissioning heavyweights. This got me to thinking about whether this market holds any promise for new people - and for present company - to try and do more.

I am still thinking that, as far as live steam model railroading goes, the entire population of the world's hobbyists is well below 10,000, but, of course, I would like to be wrong.

Cheers,

Joe


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Another anecdotal reflection related to the topic . . .

I mentioned that two of my recent acquisitions are missing corridor (gangway) connectors and so I went on a Web hunt. They seem not to be had in the gauge 1 or G gauge variety. I may end up having to make a couple myself, not the work of a general surgeon.

(Plenty of stuff around for O gauge.)

In contrast, if I were a model boat or shipbuilder (as indeed I have been,) there are practically an infinite number of places to find brass and white metal fittings and not just in any one scale, but from 1:150 right up to 1:8.

If you want cavil cleats or bollards and dolphins or you need stanchions and chain, turnbuckles or deadeyes, no problem finding any of this stuff.

But try finding brass fitting for gauge 1 coaches? If such a place exists, it has not made it into the first ten pages of a Google search.

Cheers,

Joe


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Joe,
I'm sure some of your frustration with parts is a function of the different numbers and markets for our respective hobbies...a bit to the point of your thread here. Until we get a lot more folks into Gauge 1, the frustration likely will continue. There are, as you've discussed, some cottage industry players out there that have done some very nice stuff...but like, like the hobby in general, many of those folks can't really make a realistic go of these businesses given the revenue #s they have to live with....

Making your own unfortunately sometimes is what you live with in this scale...some embrace it as part of the hobby. Again, the skills required to produce of this stuff exceeds ones own or the time simply isn't there. For many I'm sure,it is a bit of column A and column B...

Sam


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

StackTalk said:


> I'd be very surprised if Scott's extrapolations turn out to be correct overall, because I think that, people who live in urban areas would not have the room nor the inclination to pursue the hobby whereas folks in the more rural areas have fewer choice for recreation.


The vast majority of the garden railroaders and live steamers in my Monroe County sample size, 90% at least, probably 95%, are not urban, or rural..they are suburban!  There are a few garden railroads on small "city" plots, but most are in suburban neighborhoods, which makes up most of Monroe County...lot sizes of 1/4 to 3/4 of an acre. That is also probably the typical yard of the vast majority of garden railroaders overall as well..at least in the US.

I think most US cities are this way..at least smaller to medium sized cities..
When I say "Im from Rochester NY" or "I live in Rochester NY" (and I even have that in my profile) it is not *technically*, literally true!  I live 10 minutes outside of the city limits..in the ring of suburbia that surrounds the city itself...My wife proudly says she is "from Buffalo"..even though she has never actually lived inside the city limits.. she grew up in North Tonawanda, which is a northern suburb of Buffalo..but it all "counts" as Buffalo culturally, if not literally..The suburbs make up the city in spirit, if not in literal fact.

So I when I said "there are 80 G-gaugers in Rochester" I actually wasn't referring to an urban area at all, I was referring to a suburban one...To me, its all one Rochester.

Scot


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I live in the bay area and belong to BAGRS
I believe we have about 250 families of which 77 are live steamers
The majority of out club's new growth is coming from interest in live steam 
The majority of members are suburban


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Live steamers are like mice, if you see one, 10 more are hiding. After living in the house 8 years I found 4 more G1 railroaders within 2 blocks. They did not know each other and they did not want to, or join a club.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Of course having space to build a layout is an issue, but I have a several friends with several steamers and NO track. these folks run quite frequently but must of necessity have friends with track to run on.

Conversely, I had an out door layout and ran steam for perhaps 15 years in two places in Connecticut before meeting up with a single live steamer or even garden railroader.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Personally I think the hobby is poised for a period of growth.

Developed economies continue to recover from the 2008 crisis - though slowly and not in a manner which brought large portions of populations back to where they had been. Aging populations will see a surge of retires, many still physically active, with time and money.

Fast growing, populous countries are reaching income levels where hobbies become viable - and in many, steam trains are within the living memory of many. New potential customers will help manufacturers get the unit cost of models down, which will further support sales.

A steam train, like a sailboat, firearm or Harley, offers a relaxation largely free of change - attributes in demand, as they counter the barrage of new electronics, highly-stressed jobs, etc.


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## Steamer91 (Oct 13, 2011)

The actual number of people in the live steam/garden railway scene is hard to get at, but there are no doubt thousands of people worldwide who partake in the hobby, and the general rule seems to be is that if you meet one live steamer, say at a show, there's 10-20 more right behind him/her in the shadows.

I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but when I was brand-spanking new to it with just a loop of track and my Ruby, I puttered around on my own for a few months totally oblivious to the fact there was several other people from my hometown and the surrounding counties in Missouri that ran live steam too, we only met thanks to being invited to the same show in town, me with my little loop on the floor, they with the nifty portable double-tracked line up on posts..

Getting back to point, I've met people from all over the world, and from all financial backgrounds, who have at least one live steam engine. Some have little pikes hidden away in the little suburb garden behind the potting shed, some have great huge rambling tracks out in the country that make your jaw drop, some have an attic that they have to crank the vents open on to keep the smoke down. Whatever they have, wherever they have it, live steam seems to be one of the great equalizers, a common bound.

In my experience, you've either got people running alone in happy obscurity or tight-nit little groups that have steamups and go to shows and the like. It's a big and widespread hobby, but it's not like going to a football game and seeing hundreds and hundreds of people, i.e. you have to pay careful attention and hunt around a little bit if you want to see some steam and meet the people who like to run it.

It's for this reason I'd like to have a track set up out in the park or another public place, open to all where everybody could come on down and run their engines, have a soda or a tea, and share the hobby and socialize.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I think live steam is the growth area. More models are made all the time, where electrics are just the same old stuff, just with new paint and lettering/numbers. Even some new companies from China are making stuff besides Accucraft. Roundhouse seems to be doing well also. Nice thing about live steam, no sound system is needed and no batteries for power. So their higher price balances out, somewhat, the electrics and sound systems/etc.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Good input; much appreciated.

Keep'm coming. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
If one utilizes a survey by Garden Railways magazine which indicates 10% of the G Gauge population is live steam then apply that to the membership here:
12,000+ there would be 1200+ members of the burnt finger society. One could then add other organizations and country memberships for the grand total (such as LSC 350+ live steam estimate and so on). The bottomline: what composes the numbers relative to active and age group in promoting & growing the hobby of live steam.
Another indicator is the actual sells numbers of the manufacturers offerings regarding those "membership numbers" being active and engaged in the hobby. If there is a lot of stock on the shelves then member is not active and/or what is being offered could be not attracting member/customers or the price is keeping people out of the hobby of live steam.


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## catherine yronwode (Oct 9, 2013)

In REGRS (just north of BAGRS, in Sonoma County, primarily) we have 40 families, both suburban and rural. 

Wikipedia says there are 7 million people in the nine Bay Area counties. Between BAGRS and REGRS we have 290 member families -- perhaps a total of 400 people. That is .000057 of the population. United States population is 313.9 million. Multiply by .000057 and you get roughly 17,900 people into G-Scale and in a club, nationwide. If 10% of them are into live steam, that would give us 1,790 club members into live steam in the USA. 

Not all G-Scale railroaders up here are in any of the clubs, and the majority of us are into electric G-Scale in the garden, rather than indoor electric G-Scale or live steam. We have nice weather for gardening and so landscaping will always be part of the appeal for large-scale railroading in California. 

Speaking only for myself, i have less than zero interest in live steam as a hobby. If this forum or my local garden railway club became primarily a venue for live steam, i would soon leave in search of other garden railroaders. I run models of vintage narrow gauge steam locomotives (no diesels), and for me the hobby is all about the trains in relationship to detailing the narrative of the miniature landscape.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Joe.
For coach parts . bellows etc "Tenmille" in UK they have a web site..

Gordon.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Gordon,

Thank you. I haven't seen any suitable corridor (gangway) connectors there @ Tenmille. I have heard that the new owner of J&M is on holiday, so perhaps I will hear from him when he returns.

* * *

So far, we have anecdotal evidence that the number of hobbyists may be larger than some of us think - or have thought, but the only somewhat firm data we actually have so far is a reference to the G1MRA list and to the survey data Charles mentions from Garden Railways.

2500+ G1MRA and maybe 1200 here with some duplication.

The manufacturers have _some_ info - customer lists to be sure - and the fact that many build on a subscription basis tells us of smallness and the need to be careful if one wishes to be around long term.

It seems Accucraft has the largest catalog overall, so they must know what they are doing. 

The Chinese have joined in relatively recently, and they too are being somewhat careful in introducing product into the marketplace.

Good to see participation in the thread.

Perhaps more data will turn up by and by.

I am sure we all here hope that those of you who feel we may be poised for growth are correct.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
Seems that Aster track record of selling out their most of their productions after years of overage of some particular runs of models has gotten it right. For example the 241P (high price tag) sold out. Challenger (high price tag) sold out. A bit of market awareness combined with an excellent product makes for a winning combination. Having a "large catalog" also requires inventory on the shelves. Aster has been trying to prevent having inventory hanging around their necks.
So, how many of the steam community can afford to contribute to the upcoming products?
Aster: 2
Accucraft: 10
Wuhu: 12
Roundhouse:?

Mutliply by average of 75 units= 1800 that means about 50% of the membership of live steam would have to purchase a new item to keep the business of gauge one locomotives viable on a yearly bases. That is a lot of competition and items to selling for a small market.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Yep.

I have noticed - as I am sure most have - that Aster production runs have gotten smaller over the years and the price tags are a bit lofty for most people.

I guess that Aster is counting on a fair number of their loyalists buying a new Aster every third year or so +/- with some buying one of the new models every year. But we are only talking about 100, 200 or 300 units at most - times 2 if there are two models introduced in one year.

I do not know whether Accurcraft publishes the number of units for each model, but I do see that they do it for some models.

To sell 2000 locomotives a year with each person ponying up every third year would take a population of 6000. Pure unscientific speculation at work here with little to base it on.

There must be more than 6000 of us anyway . . . and maybe twice that number worldwide but not tens of thousands.

What do you think, Charles?

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
So, life is full of hard choices: Do you purchase...
For example
N &W J 611
CP Selkirk
UP FEF
British Rebuilt Merchant Navy
or
wife a present, maybe a vacation for family....
then there are the needs and not the wants..
Need to fix the roof, repair the car, plumbing,etc.

Interesting that the survey on the hobby indicated that the average income for G gauge was $95K. I think the average for gauge one live steam tops that and probably the only reason 5 major companies (forgot Regner) can survive!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

Remember the Aster numbers sell out because they only take firm orders for their initial production runs. Given the market and required investments, this, of course,makes business sense. But, it may or may not, represent the true demand for their product. For example, as you suggest, you may not be able to pony up the amount of dollars that year because of the roof,family vacation,etc

The overall challenge for all these vendors is capturing what appears, to me anyway, to be a shrinking market. Aristocraft had a large market footprint they could not sustain. Aster's foofprint, albeit a lot smaller, has to have a minimum number of engines that they sell to make a venture profitable. If that minimum number of orders goes down too far, it may increase the price enough to make this cost-prohibitive for many buyers. That hasn't happened yet but, as the number of buyers goes down, it could. So, simply selling out your production run may not be enough to sustain your business or attract sufficient capital in the first place based on risk....


But to answer your last question--The 611 of course...



Sam


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Its a bit different here in France were Gauge one and live steam have been a bit slow in getting underway, for a couple of reasons, the first group of which I am are a pretty indiviudualistic bunch and resent politics getting in the way of their hobby so they didn't want to formalise a group. Since and thanks to Chris Ludlows taking a lot of time to foster this new group the Longjumeau group has gotten its head way and they are now quite active, they mix narrow gauge and 1/32. The other reason was the renaissance of O gauge which happened since the early '80 and has had a huge following here just when gauge one was expanding in GB, Germany, Switzerland and the USA as well as Canada and Australia and of course Japan. Now it seems that the country is ripe for a gauge one craze but who knows? Also what did a lot of harm over here is the fact that hobby shops don't want to stock Gauge one which takes up a lot of shelve space, sells slowly and costs a fortune when they could put 30 HO car in the same space that would sell like hotcakes. As they pretty much run the hobby magazines here they make sure there are no articles on gauge one or live steam, and this has the disastrous effect we know here. Hopefully this will change with time, but it is a slow process here. nothing like the figures you quote for the US market.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

One way to find a rough count is to ask each of the hobby shops how many customers they have, and probably divide by 1.5 most people try to stick to one or two shops that are local and have given them the best service.

As mentioned before not all g gauge people are in clubs.

My 2c


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Gauge One is all but gone from hobby shops, though. 

The store I brought my HO Marklin from had a few pieces of G1 when I first visited, but gave up shortly thereafter. The mail order dealers gave up too, and now it's all "special order."

Live steam I've never seen in stock, ready to by from a retailer.

***

Interesting to see Accucraft making a QJ, I wonder who the anticipated customers are for that.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I must be lucky to have worked across the street from Gold Coast Station out in Ventura. I go to their other store out in Tehachapi as well. Both stores are pretty much floor to ceiling, wall to wall G gauge. Great stuff. I try to buy as much of my G gauge stuff from them as I can. Their site is goldcoaststation.net


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## overlandflyer (Jul 25, 2011)

up until the horror of the Challenger kit (and likely all their future models), i enjoyed building Aster models, but always considered #1 guage an intermediate hop on the way to larger scale live steam. for those considering the jump in scale, there may never be a better time. my theory is that many live steamers apparently build more locomotives than they require and currently the market is loaded with good deals on average detailed locomotives 1½" scale.


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## NeilK (Jun 17, 2013)

Overland:
I guess I'm not familiar with the problems on the Aster Challenger kit. Design? Machining errors?

The 1-1/2" scale live steam means big machine tools, big transport vehicles, and a strong back (unless you've got acreage with a shop building). It's totally fun to run and ride, but as I get older, I see some real advantages to Gauge 1 live steam. I'll probably downsize to the smaller gauges as time goes on.

Still, there's nothing like the smell of hot steam oil - though hot cinnamon rolls and fresh coffee comes close! 

Neil


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

While the Challenger kit build is not on par with the Berkshire kit it certainly much easier than the earlier models such as K4 or NYC Hudson. There are some aspects that could have been better done but having built four of them it is a very doable kit (not horrid maybe a big of frustration at times). Despite the faults in certain areas of parts and how they come together then it result is an excellent performing locomotive. I am not sure how one can project the status of kit build for the UP FEF without having a working knowledge of the step process with a conclusion that it would not be a satisfactory kit product.


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## overlandflyer (Jul 25, 2011)

NeilK said:


> Overland:
> I guess I'm not familiar with the problems on the Aster Challenger kit. Design? Machining errors?
> 
> The 1-1/2" scale live steam means big machine tools, big transport vehicles, and a strong back (unless you've got acreage with a shop building). It's totally fun to run and ride, but as I get older, I see some real advantages to Gauge 1 live steam. I'll probably downsize to the smaller gauges as time goes on.
> ...


the Aster Challenger kit assembly difficulty had nothing to do with the complexity of the model. unlike the previous two American models of the NKP Berkshire and the GN S2 where the parts were well machined and fit together flawlessly, practically every part of the Challenger kit needed to be filed or somehow modified to fit. in many places new holes needed to be drilled and tapped to compensate for the errors made in production of the parts. not at all in line with their past production.

i agree that 1:8 scale is a whole different story when it comes to mobility, but luckily there are many clubs with infrastructure capable of storing these beasts. it's no surprise that most of the participants in these larger gauges are well into their senior years, but at most of the track i visit in the area (LA, Riverside, Maricopa) all have engine and car storage sheds. you basically roll your locomotive out to a steaming bay, fire it up and then proceed to pick up a train if you have one. to accommodate visitors, most club tracks have hydraulic lifts.

admittedly it is much handier having the support of a club especially if you need to occasionally re-rail a half ton steam locomotive. but on the other end of the large scale spectrum, a 3.5" gauge Tich can still pull a few adults around the track but can fit in the space of an airline carry-on. a senior friend of mine travels down to Riverside quite frequently with his 7.5" gauge Invicta which easily rolls out of the back of his pickup onto the turntable.

a bit more cumbersome than #1 gauge, of course, but i don't see advanced age as a barrier to the fun.

cheers...gary


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I know of at least one very good live steamer that built beautifull locos in 5"gauge over here, that quit in his last few years and built two G scale live steamers, and came over to test run them on my pike. He turned some wheels for my scratch built SNCF 2-D-2 9100 electric. unfortunatly he passed away a few years ago. I agree with Neil though you need the kind of shop not compatible with what you need in gauge one. I have a Myford, and I don't see what I couldn't do for gauge one with it. Besides I find that gauge one gives much better the impression of class one railroad operation, trains can really move. On most large scale they tend to slow down for a curve, or a switch or worse for a bad spot in the track. Also firing them is a sinch, I find that gauge one locos offer more of a chalenge that somehow comes close to the excitement of making a good run with a heavy train on a prototype road. When you have really tuned an engine and have a fairly correct train trailing it it's a real pleasure to behold and see it do its' stuff.
Cheers, Simon


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## overlandflyer (Jul 25, 2011)

i'm certainly not trying to talk anyone out of #1 gauge. i still love to operate the few models i have. as far as a machine shop, i know of one club member building a 1.6" scale SantaFe Hudson with most of the work being done on a small Sherline lathe. very few parts in large scales require a 12" swing or a 30" lathe bed.

getting back to my original point, however, it was stressing that there is no shortage of large scale locomotives already built and running for sale. naturally many are in the fix-up-maintenance stage of their life, but much of that work requires no more than a well stocked toolbox and parts available from reliable sources.

only trying to reinforce that i've seen answers to any excuse.
i wish all the best with whatever gauge meets your hobby desires.

cheers...gary


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## NeilK (Jun 17, 2013)

Overland...

No, I didn't think you were trying to talk anybody out of Ga1. It's true there are quite a few 1-1/2" scale steamers out there for sale. For the most part, the good steamers are "run out" and need significant work. The "run very little" steamers seem to be used very little because they were not good steamers - thus still needing significant work. But, its supposed to be a hobby, not a contest.

One thing I believe is steam railroading _in any gauge_ is as close as one can reasonably get to pure railroading, not just modelling per se. My younger son and I just spent the day plumbing up working brakes on a riding car - 8 shoes, 8 hangers, 4 cylinders, 4 brake beams, a dozen feet of hose, etc. It's part of the hobby - work, but fun. While Ga1 might not have working brakes, most other systems are there; fuel, water injection, lubrication, valve timing, seal fitting, and on. It's not just plug it in, turn it on, watch it run.

I know the Hudson builder - who is very talented - and I'm really looking forward to seeing that engine run!

Neil


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## overlandflyer (Jul 25, 2011)

i must say that building a few 1:32 scale kits provided a solid understanding of a basic live steam locomotive and made the transition to a larger gauge a much less daunting experience. understanding the operation of injectors is about the only increased complexity in operation of the larger scales.

as with anything preowned, there are sure to be candidates in all ranges of operational condition, but not all are in the basket case category. personally i'm the third caretaker of a fabulous 1" scale coal fired Pacific, and i doubt if i'll be the last to ever see it run. many of these large locomotives are built and maintained with loving care and generally tend to well outlive most of their builders.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I have to agree on one point fellahs, it is the fantastic choice of castings and parts available in the large scales, in gauge one up untill now we have been cruelly missing a part source and the availability of such basics as trucks, couplers, brake gear, brake wheels, and all of the loco castings you need: cylinder blocks, crossheads, drivers are available in England so I wont count that, but stacks, domes, air pumps , headlights, marker lights, trailing trucs, etc. If only Aster would do spome reruns and make available some of their parts, it would be a real boon to the hobby, and I am sure we could convert a lot more fans out there to live steam. Right now I am sure most modelers stay away because they know for sure it's a "collectors scale".


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