# It's a Garratt!!



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Fantastic news from Roundhouse: Darjeeling D-Class. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/garratt.htm


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Roundhouse typically pictures their products in bright colors. What it might look like in colors other than military green (?). 

Peter Angus locomotives:


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Interesting R/C only. Any idea on price?


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

$4,600, according to The Train Department.

I guessed Roundhouse went R/C only because it's a lot easier to put a reversing servo in each chassis than build a mechanical linkage which accommodates the articulation.

It's an appealing model, and huge - over a half meter long.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Roundhouse website price list 2,859.33 BPS. = 4,330.40 USD (5/11/2015 exchange rate)
http://www.xe.com/


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Roundhouse chose correct prototypical colour:








This is how the locomotive appeared in the early years of the service. 
There are not many photos known, but here is a nice painting: 








I do not know if it has ever been repainted in a different colour. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Scott said:


> Roundhouse website price list 2,859.33 BPS. = 4,330.40 USD (5/11/2015 exchange rate)
> http://www.xe.com/


I checked and the Darjeeling Garratt price ex VAT is 2,958.33 BPS.
That is three Garratts on the boil now! 
They are all going to be quite expensive too unfortunately.










Andrew


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

It is nearly two locomotives. 

Two full engines. While there is only one boiler, burner, and fuel assembly, there are several components not found on a conventional Roundhouse model: two hinge points in the chassis and flexible steam delivery lines plus one return line. This model also seems to have more detail than is average for Roundhouse.

I'm thinking about ordering one. My coal project is taking awhile, and I don't want to rush that.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Small rivets instead of big bumps, one would hope.

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
Roundhouse website price list 2,859.33 BPS. = 4,330.40 USD (5/11/2015 exchange rate)
http://www.xe.com/



Garratt said:


> I checked and the Darjeeling Garratt price ex VAT is 2,958.33 BPS.
> That is three Garratts on the boil now!
> They are all going to be quite expensive too unfortunately.
> 
> ...


Find, so after typing it twelve times I transposed a couple of digits, Ok 

 $4,330.40 USD = 2,958.33 BPS 

Try it http://www.xe.com/ 

I'm half dyslexic - don't know which half 

Happy


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Roundhouse chose correct prototypical colour:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best to remember the WHR required two tries to get Edison Green right. Hopefully Roundhouse will come round. That Green (or whatever it's called) is atrocious. Calling that color Green is surely offensive the Green.

The color in the painting is superior to the Roundhouse color. It's positively revolting, and I don't particularly are for it. 

DHR D Class
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DHR_D_Class

Photo Labeled "Beyer-Peacock works photo"








I think a spectral analysis would show the reflectively off the painted area in this photo would not translate to Green. And painting in this photo is in panels with lining. As labeled on multiple locations "Beyer-Peacock works photo" and is probably Beyer-Garratt Grey as delivered to DHR. 

Interestingly, this photo clearly shows painted panels and lining with DHR on the bunker unlike the painting or Roundhouse model. It would be interesting to know what reference Roundhouse used for the color and paint scheme.










I searched but could not find any dimensions for the DHR D Class. But this photo does offer some relative comparison to the K1. Relative to the man standing next to the D Class It doesn't appear much bigger than the K1.









WHR K1:









Zubi's posted DHR D cutaway and painting both show panel outlining versus the Roundhouse model which has none. The lining would help the Roundhouse very plain paint job. Panel lining will be available from Roundhouse on the delivered models, if only as an add option.

Final point of interest, you would think, like many other DHR locomotives, the D Class Garratt would have at least been painted Darjeeling Blue; there would be at least one photo of it could find itself somewhere in the historical records.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if the prospect of another Garrett model coming to market, with photos showing it's real, versus K1 is just being planned so far, will devalue the NGG16 Garratt on eBay and it will sell for less than the first?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Mongo like  

But Mongo poor :-(


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

It appears from those photos the prototype used a drive shaft with universal joints and telescoping sections to control the weigh shafts and lifting arms on each engine - probably the component Roundhouse found too costly to offer in manual control. It looks similar to a Shay's driveshaft.


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

I wonder if the boiler has 2 burners to feed the 2 pair of cylinders?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

BigRedOne said:


> It appears from those photos the prototype used a drive shaft with universal joints and telescoping sections to control the weigh shafts and lifting arms on each engine - probably the component Roundhouse found too costly to offer in manual control. It looks similar to a Shay's driveshaft.


Ahh! well spotted. I was wondering why no manual version.
The below image shows the side with the universal link from the johnson bar to each power unit. 
Perhaps there is a servo in each bunker to do this instead of making the link function as on the prototype. 
No universal joints appear to be modeled on the Roundhouse model. Maybe it is just some flexible tube to each power unit.

I don't mind drab green locomotives. I have an Accucraft Saxonian IIIK that is drab green with a dull red chassis which looks very convincing compared to the 'jolly' greens LGB uses.










Andrew


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> I wonder if the prospect of another Garrett model coming to market, with photos showing it's real, versus K1 is just being planned so far, will devalue the NGG16 Garratt on eBay and it will sell for less than the first?


Maybe so, this one sold for a $1000 less.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well my estimation of the price was the current listed exchange plus 5 or so points as that is at least that of what I pay via payment to Roundhouse for payment. The banks make their money each time. I then estimated about 200 shipping for it to the US. So yes you are about 4600 all in as I expected. Of course if the dollar drops against the pound then its just going to get higher. Still a great looking loco. Cant wait to see the first one lined. 

As to the control there is servos for each drive unit that control the gear like the Talesin. That is why there is no manual control.


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

It begs to be coal-fired.

Steve


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The water gauge is a window in the boiler. Only other model I know that had a window into the boiler was the Frank-S.

What scale is it? 1:19?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The prototype is 2ft gauge so it is probably gauge adjustable for 32mm or 45mm. The Roundhouse website does not say but 1:19 is common for 2ft gauge models.
Roundhouse like making outside frame locomotives because it is easier to make them re-gaugable. 

Andrew


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

*It's a Garratt!*

Scott,

The works picture looks strange (ie not green looking) because works pictures generally saw the loco painted in a light gray with black accents. The K-1 works picture is the same shading and for a time while it was on exhibit at the NRM it was painted "works gray" as it was called on the exhibit placard which actually looked rather nice IMHO!

Mike McCormack
mocrownsteam
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

mocrownsteam said:


> Scott,
> 
> The works picture looks strange (ie not green looking) because works pictures generally saw the loco painted in a light gray with black accents. The K-1 works picture is the same shading and for a time while it was on exhibit at the NRM it was painted "works gray" as it was called on the exhibit placard which actually looked rather nice IMHO!
> 
> ...


I like the works grey too. As I understand the K-1 will be offered in both grey and black.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought that the model was lacking of detail until I saw the pictures of the prototype. Looks like it will be another awesome model from Roundhouse.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The K-1 is offered in grey lined, black lined and plain black. 
I have grey lined ordered but now I am swaying towards black lined as it worked in Tasmania.

Andrew


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

The Roundhouse Tom Rolt has a similar water gauge.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> The water gauge is a window in the boiler. Only other model I know that had a window into the boiler was the Frank-S.
> 
> What scale is it? 1:19?


Boiler sightglass is a reflex type as used on ride on scales. Much more reliable type. 

Also scale is stated at 1:19 per Roundhouse.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew,Tom & Chris, Rather than read about it, I purchased the Mountaineer directly from Roundhouse. Mine was # 21 of the second batch and they built it to my request, as not having the fuel valve sticking out of the window, Roundhouse is very accommodating. 
The water glass is more accurate than the tube type, I personally like it. And I can't see it being as difficult to replace (if ever necessary) or have the bad alignment problems as the tube type occasionally have. LG


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris Scott said:


> The water gauge is a window in the boiler. Only other model I know that had a window into the boiler was the Frank-S.
> 
> What scale is it? 1:19?


Chris, you need to update your info more often. Starting from VoR all Roundhouse engines have this feature. It is very robust and effective. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS as to scale, I believe it is close to 1:19, but Roundhouse never builds precisely to scale. I expect it will go well with the B-class. 
PPS Oh, you are mistaken about the Darjeeling blue, this was introduced after the D was scrapped.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Chris, you need to update your info more often. Starting from VoR all Roundhouse engines have this feature. It is very robust and effective. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
> PS as to scale, I believe it is close to 1:19, but Roundhouse never builds precisely to scale. I expect it will go well with the B-class.
> PPS Oh, you are mistaken about the Darjeeling blue, this was introduced after the D was scrapped.


Zubi;
I don't have info to update, only questions, nothing but questions. Notwithstanding, I am dependent on your impeccable erudition. 

As always, thank you.


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## Ian Pooley (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all, 

I've had two Roundhouse Fowler chassis and an old Accucraft Mogul boiler kicking around for several years. The new Roundhouse garratt has got me thinking once again about building my own garratt. One question that has been bothering me is the suspension. The factory photo of the Darjeeling loco suggests that the boiler unit is kept on the same horizontal plane as the rear power unit, and that the front power unit not only swivels, but can also rotate from a vertical relative to the rest of the locomotive. Any thoughts about how this can be replicated in a model? 

Ian Pooley


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If you just had a pin through a slightly oversized hole that was chamferred a little each side it would provide enough tilt so the power unit would remain on the rails if they undulate over the locomotive's length. In fact you could do it to both power units as long as there was a flat washer around the pin so the center boiler section will sit level.

Andrew


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## Ian Pooley (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Andrew

I'm assuming that the washer would have to be held in place by a spring. I'm thinking of the way the Accucraft shay trucks are held in place by a bolt with a spring on the bolt shaft. 

Second question: will the Accucraft Mogul boiler have enough steam to supply two sets of Roundhouse cylinders? 

Ian


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## Ian Pooley (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Andrew,

A second comment: the plans for the original Darjeeling Garratt in the Peter Manning book show that the front pivot contains a spherical casting and the rear pivot has a flat faced centre and a side bearer on each side of the side frames. 

Possibly to power two sets of cylinders it would be better to use a large boiler with two burners, eg: a Tich boiler kit from Reeves in the UK. 

Ian


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ian Pooley said:


> I'm assuming that the washer would have to be held in place by a spring. I'm thinking of the way the Accucraft shay trucks are held in place by a bolt with a spring on the bolt shaft.


Yeah Ian. That is where my thoughts were leading. I was primarily thinking of the tilt rather than retention. Use a bolt for the pin but have no thread where the chambered hole rubs, maybe a sleeve. It wouldn't need a lot of allowable tilt if done at both bunker pivots. I think it would need to tilt at both pivots because of the geometry when on a sharp curve. The spring would help the boiler from wobbling. More weight in a live steam boiler full of water than a plastic model so that has to be considered. It's only a simple approach to a pivot that has some side tilt but I'm sure it could be a lot more sophisticated.

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Boiler sightglass is a reflex type as used on ride on scales. Much more reliable type.
> 
> Also scale is stated at 1:19 per Roundhouse.





zubi said:


> Chris, you need to update your info more often. Starting from VoR all Roundhouse engines have this feature. It is very robust and effective. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
> PS as to scale, I believe it is close to 1:19, but Roundhouse never builds precisely to scale. I expect it will go well with the B-class.



Chris Scott 
Apr 13 (7 days ago)

to sales 
*What scale is the Garratt? 1:19, other? Is the Garratt re-gauge capable 32/45 mm ?*


Apr 15 (5 days ago)

*The Garratt is 16mm to the foot which is indeed 1/19 scale and yes, it is re-gaugeable between 32 and 45mm.*

Regards
Harri Harrison
for Roundhouse Engineering Co. Ltd.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Apr 15 (5 days ago)

to sales 
_*What type of sight glass in on the Garratt? I'm told it's a Reflex type. What is a Reflex type sight glass?*_


Apr 20 1:49 AM (12 hours ago)

*None of our locomotives have a reflex type sight glass. A reflex gauge has a flat glass panel with vertical angular grooves cut in it’s rear face that refract the light differently where water is behind it.
All of our gauges use plain glass.*

Regards
Harri Harrison
for Roundhouse Engineering Co. Ltd.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


*Notes*
Reading the description of a Reflex Sight Glass it seemed it just wouldn't scale to 1:19 very well.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Reflex+Sight+Glass&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS578US578&oq=Reflex+Sight+Glass&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

*Images:*
https://www.google.com/search?q=Reflex+gauges&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS578US578&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UG01VaakK5LZoATRiYCYCQ&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1600&bih=744


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Roundhouse now has 'groovy glasses' man.
> 
> Andrew


Andrew,
What about Roundhouse writing (email above) they use only plain flat glass? 

_*"All of our gauges use plain glass."

Regards
Harri Harrison
for Roundhouse Engineering Co. Ltd.
*_


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris, I was too busy thinking how the reflex sight glass worked and missed the entire point that Roundhouse does not use grooves in their glass.  

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Chris, I was too busy thinking how the reflex sight glass worked and missed the entire point that Roundhouse does not use grooves in their glass.
> 
> Andrew


Hey, we all get stuck in grooves now and then.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*Roundhouse Garratt Videos*

Couple of short videos of the Garratt on Roundhouse Facebook page, with more photos, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Roundhouse-Engineering-CoLtd/116369505103011?fref=ts


I don't know whether the Green is growing on me or the color just looks better in natural light; the green color does seem to look better..

For those of us unfamiliar with Roundhouse water gauge a more revealing photo from their facebook page:


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Just came across a new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=18&v=-Pjylzex7oc Something tells me that this Garratt may actually be better than the Beyer, Peacock & Co. prototype;-)! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

"It's an appealing model, and huge - over a half meter long."

21 inches to be exact, about the size of a Bachmann Shay. We have different ideas about "huge", but to each his own. Although it is appealing and looks like a good puller in the one video.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Since Roundhouse has denied the use of Reflective Site Glass.

ROUNDHOUSE: None of our locomotives have a reflex type sight glass. A reflex gauge has a flat glass panel with vertical angular grooves cut in it’s rear face that refract the light differently where water is behind it. All of our gauges use plain glass. This is a direct quote from a previous posting. Thank You.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Nick Jr, I have several Roundhouse engines with the modern water level sight window - they are far superior to traditional sight glasses. Roundhouse introduced this concept on VoR I believe, over ten years ago, and they install it on every new model. Every older model when redesigned, also gets this feature. I hope they will redo the Darjeeling B-tank in this way, although it is a tiny engine and there may be not much room for the water sight window. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi, I do agree it is a far superior to the round site glass, I as my Mountaineer has the feature and I love it as I stated.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Also for anyone thinking of lining the loco here is ne lined already. Lining by Matt Acton

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=ef4eb08aaa3ab35db8fa70585c0e23a0&oe=56737E66

And the original DHR lining

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...01_1655080444739066_2549488727591891571_o.jpg


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## JimB (Jan 25, 2013)

Kovacjr said:


> Also for anyone thinking of lining the loco here is ne lined already. Lining by Matt Acton
> 
> https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=ef4eb08aaa3ab35db8fa70585c0e23a0&oe=56737E66


That is a great looking loco. I love the lined one.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jay, lined looks great. What kind of paints does he use? And what is the cost? Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Jay, lined looks great. What kind of paints does he use? And what is the cost? Zubi


Zubi, Lining is just about 500 USD with the DHR Decal applied. Lots of panels!

Paint is usually a lining one shot paint. Its all on top of the OE paints as they are very hard and durable. All that I've see s far are enamels.

Here is the original DHR lining

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...01_1655080444739066_2549488727591891571_o.jpg


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jay, thanks, yes, lining tends to be expensive. At least now we have at least three lining services working with Roundhouse. Roundhouse two component paint is extremely durable. Indeed, myself I was always told the lining guys use some kind of enamel or hobby paint - easier to work with but not as durable as two component epoxy paint which Aster applied/or still does. This is an extremely tough procedure, involving specially prepared silk screens. I did it once to properly letter my C&S #22 - I almost got it right, both sides of the cab and the tender. Just lettering. Lining would be a nightmare... I still remember Tamada San's face expression when he told me how he had to touch up by hand 600 or so GG1's for LGB... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

The final stage of any lining job that I do is the application of a clear coat finish. This is also a two component paint and it makes the lining as durable as the paint applied by the manufacturer. See http://www.rhoshelyg.me.uk/Painting.html for more details.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Tony, that was also what I always thought should be done But apparently, only you do this - as far as I know other commercial 'liners' do not apply any protective coating. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

What would be the need for a 2nd coat of clear? Both are enamel, one is clear one (the lining) is colored? I only clear things if I have a finish I don't want IE Matt, Satin or such. The paints are extremely durable and if you clean properly bond to each other very well. I do understand it additionally seals the lining to the other clear but being that there is a lot of parts with no paint all that needs to be removed and reinstalled. otherwise you are just going to blanket coat the whole loco polished brass, running gear and all including any matt finish details. Also with more locos having a satin smokebox this is one more part to separate to do properly. Masking I don't think will allow proper clear coat as just look at the Darj Garratt with all the details to be removed.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

zubi said:


> Tony, that was also what I always thought should be done But apparently, only you do this - as far as I know other commercial 'liners' do not apply any protective coating. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


As far as I am aware, I believe you are correct. I am happy to be corrected, of course.


Kovacjr said:


> What would be the need for a 2nd coat of clear? Both are enamel, one is clear one (the lining) is colored?


Jason, I'm not sure what you mean by a "2nd coat of clear". Roundhouse locos do not have a clear coat applied. And there is no "enamel" paint used by them or me, just two component automotive acrylic. The paint system I use is as close (it may even be identical) to that used by Roundhouse as I can achieve. Same primer, same paint type, etc.

The lining paint I use is durable, but over time it is not durable enough to cope with heat, oil, frequent wiping, frequent handling and general wear and tear. Ideal for a Shelf Queen, but not for a working steam loco. It is always reassuring to see a loco as good now as it did when it left my workshop several years ago.

Each loco is reduced to its component parts for lining, and each is handled separately. Only those parts receive the clear coat, and definitely not the polished brass, running gear and the rest. You are correct in saying that masking is not (usually) enough. For example, repainting a Roundhouse Darjeeling B-Class boiler from incorrect light blue to the correct black (blue and green Darjeeling B-Class locos have black boilers, and red ones have a red boiler) requires removal of the boiler from the chassis, so also requiring removal of the body, tank, smokebox, radio control, gas system, and so on.

I have a Garratt on its way to me and I have already discussed with Roundhouse how to dismantle it sufficiently for the work I am to do, and I am grateful to them for the advice they gave me.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Very good Tony, I was told the paints on the Roundhouse are Enamels. Interesting to hear they are acrylic, wonder it that's in recent years only? Having stripped a SRRL 24, not sure the age but sprung chassis, I can say there was a clear on top of the black, the clear would sandblast off and the black only with paint stripper. it is some tough paint. 

The only real lining paints we get here is DuPont OneShot and its an Enamel. I know the Geoff from Lightline also told me he uses Enamels.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks Jason, that's interesting and I'm happy to be corrected. I'll just say then that I haven't seen a Roundhouse loco that has had a clear coat. Perhaps the SRRL 24 is different? I've stripped the factory paint from many locos but never from a SRRL 24.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_Lining probably warrants a separate thread, as it applies to more than the RH Garratt._

Anyway, as an option to those who want to do-it-yourself, I've had some success with the paint pens sold at the local artists supply. I also lined a RH Argyll with regular white enamel and a bow pen. The paint pen is easier to control.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Tony and Jason, that is correct, Roundhouse uses two component automotive grade acrylic paint. I do not know how long they have been using it, probably for at least five years. About ten years ago, I still received some touch up paints from them, and at that time they used organic solvent based, perhaps enamel type of paint. I still have it and use to touch up the oldest Roundhouses I have (the Darjeeling B-tank and Vale of Rheidol tank). Anyway, I am sure they will tell you which paint they used on the locomotive based on the chassis number. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I use Dupli-Color Engine Enamel with CERAMIC which I believe is the trade mark for an additive. Comes in many colors and after it cures will stand up to 500'F


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