# Justification for gas as fuel



## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi all,

This video was post over on the 7/8"s Lounge. I think it justifies the use of gas for fuel in our live steamers.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Beautiful!! Coal (dust) is the fuel to use... Zubi


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Ms. Phoebe would not be pleased!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Would burn up the fields here. Okay in the desert I guess.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd love to be able to simulate that on my RR


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

A reader's picture in the latest GR showed a locomotive he had put a 4th of July smoke bomb in. Pretty spectacular. Would think it would be too hot, but I think it was a USA Big Boy and they are metal.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Isn't that a locomotive with no spark arrestor? Your title says "gas", do you mean to imply it is running on gasoline?


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
In large scale live steam, the debate over gas firing versus alcohol or coal is as deeply divided as track power vs battery. The title here jokingly pokes at the reality that gas firing has fewer problems associated with accidental fires. In the case of alcohol burning trains, the flame is nearly invisible in outdoor light. In reality, i doubt there is much fire risk associated with our coal fired trains, but i guess this illustrates the exteme possibility. z


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Jerry Barnes said:


> A reader's picture in the latest GR showed a locomotive he had put a 4th of July smoke bomb in. Pretty spectacular. Would think it would be too hot, but I think it was a USA Big Boy and they are metal.


I thought that the caption said it was *behind*, not *in* the loco... but my two-year-old has carried off my copy so I can't check (he's like a little raven--and I have no idea where he's hiding all the "treasures" he makes off with.)


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone ever hear or seen the UP gas turbine melt the overpass of a highway?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Isn't that a locomotive with no spark arrestor? Your title says "gas", do you mean to imply it is running on gasoline?


The implication of the subject line is that the video is why gas is better than coal... not spark showers from a gas fire as what you see from the coal fired loco in the video.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Semp, now I know it's a coal fired loco and the title of the thread has nothing to do with the post itself.

So when the bright sparks die out, are those just cinders? Never seen pictures of this, was this amount typical?

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

No not typical, cheap powdered coal.... floor sweeps!
Hard to fire for heat, when so much burning material is going out the stack.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Thanks Semp, now I know it's a coal fired loco and the title of the thread has nothing to do with the post itself.
> 
> So when the bright sparks die out, are those just cinders? Never seen pictures of this, was this amount typical?
> 
> Greg


Actually, I suspect the loco in that video may have been burning wood, or a very crumbly coal or peat.

But that was "excessive" by any RR's standards. In the U.S. the fireman would probably have been reprimanded for letting such a shower of sparks occur... though it was often very difficult to keep it from happening once out on the road and having to work the engine hard to maintain momentum going up hill and not stall.

There were many innovations to try to keep it to a minimum... screens in the smokebox, and various types of "spark arrester" stacks.

Look at all the different stack styles were on older locomotives. Wood burners often had the biggest funnel stacks. The wide top allowed the gasses to slow and drop particulates so they didn't blow out of the stack.

Also, the "funnel" stack was not just an empty space inside. It had baffles and screens to try to get the gasses to swirl and drop the heavy particles out or trap them inside so that you didn't set fire to the wood cars in the train or to trackside vegetation/structures. If you look at the base of many of the wood and early coal burners there is a small door near the bottom to clean out the ash that collects in it.

It was often said that no Foreman of Engines was worth his salt if he didn't try to redesign the front end for better draft without spewing embers out the stack.

Have you ever seen that public service ad on TV where they talk about a burning ember from a fire traveling up to a mile?


Story time: My son and I went to a Thresher's Reunion (in Nowthen, MN) a couple of years ago and were watching a Steam Traction engine running a sawmill. The wind shifted slightly and we were caught in the smoke for a moment. I was teasing my son that his wife wouldn't like his new knit shirt covered with smoke and soot. We joked a moment about that and then I noticed what appeared to be a large insect on his shoulder and I reached out to flick it off. He saw me reach toward him and saw the 'bug' too and sort of jumped at the sight... such that instead of flicking it off, I pressed it against his shoulder and he thought it had stung him and yelped pretty loudly. He kept asking what kind of bug I thought it was as he had never felt such pain from a bug bite! All I could say was that it was about 1/2 inch long, very thin, mostly black and one end was bright red. I had never seen a bug like that and was at a loss to try to name it.

Then I noticed that his brand new knit shirt had a tiny hole in it, and when I looked again... the hole was getting bigger! I started slapping at it to put out the FIRE! He could not figure why I was slapping his shoulder and though maybe the bug was still there. Ended up with a 1/2 inch diameter hole in the shirt.

That 'bug' was a cinder from the fire in the traction engine! I am glad the shirt burned so slowly and did not go up in a flash!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW! Looks like Smaug, the dragon from The Hobbit, has come back to life as a Chinese steam locomotive. Well, they really are more like iron dragons than iron horses.

Best,
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now, I'm not an expert on live steam, but I'm pretty observant, those "sparks" were VERY consistent in size and quantity, so it stands to reason that the fuel was also very consistent in size.

I would think that rules out wood, unless someone is using wood pellets. Since this is being done in china, coal would make sense, but again would imply very consistent sized fuel, not random sweepings, and dust would most likely explode.

Any more guesses?

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think they are all that similar in size... some are floating and some fall like rocks. But if the loco has a mechanical coal stoker then coal would be pretty well ground to very small rocks and powder. The momentary cessation of the spark shower suggests that it might have a mechanical stoker that was turned off at that point.

But, I have seen wood burners (Farm Traction Engines) throw off showers of sparks like that as well as peat fuel. But a soft coal would flake and produce light cinders that are more apt to be lifted off the grate and sucked through the flues.

They just need a good supply of anthracite!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Now, I'm not an expert on live steam
> Any more guesses?
> 
> Greg


Greg,

As Semper said, the sparks may look the same but realize that the light plays tricks in that low exposure

You will have to realize that as coal burns it does not hold the same shape as when you shoveled it in. 

Coal as it burns breaks down into ash and smaller pieces, which can easily stay alight and travel up into the smokebox. The tearing effect of the exhaust amplifies how the fire is burned down and will suck the smaller pieces through the flues and tubes. 

Chinese coal is not a hard coal and is generally a very soft bituminous or lignite, so there are a lot of volatiles to further amplify the glowing ember show. Volatiles burn and glow too, just like the pieces that have broken down. Coal tailings (mostly dust, very odd sized pieces and general slag) is likely what is being used here as it will still burn and create enough heat on the cheap. 

I would imagine that the screens (common in US engines) in the smokebox that are designed to prevent this shower of sparks have long since disappeared, burned/corroded out years ago, or perhaps were never there!. 

A build up of cinders and hot ashes (embers if you will) can be collected in the negative pressure area of the lower smokebox door and create a burn (or hot) spot in that area 

This photo shows what can collect and how hot the cinders stay in the smokebox. 









If you look closely you can make out the screening that helps limit these pieces going up the stack in anything other than a fine cinder. The large embers bounce off of the screen and the smaller ones pass up it. Self cleaning smokeboxes have a more complex series of screens that help to break apart those pieces through the venturi created by the exhaust and smokebox.


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## HampshireCountyNarrowGage (Apr 4, 2012)

WOW! That was more reaction than I expected. S-4 is correct in the meaning of my post. In the Lounge, the thread title is "Here be Dragons!". Just poking fun, that's all.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I volunteer at the WW&F railway...as you say we have fiddled in the smoke box...to improve thedraft and then to make a spark arrestor. The flow of hot gasses does tend to throw the heavier stuff out of the air stream leaving it at the front of the smoke box. Lighter stuff will go with the flow. That would help explain the consistent size.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Chester et al
In gauge one the real hazard is NOT the stuff going up the stack, it is the hot stuff that drops through the grates onto the [usually] plastic ties. After any meet where coal fied engines are run on my track, i usually have several tie strips that "should" be replaced.

The fire hazard in the larger scales [where many locos do not have screens in the smoke box or spark arrestors in the stack] is very real. There have been several fires in recent years at Train Mountain in Oregon. Currently only propane fired steam locos can operate on the north side of the highway. After the 2015 Triennial meet in June, No coal or oil fired steam locomotives will be allowed to run on the property.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

While I don't disagree with Jim, I thought y'all might be amused by this photo of a coal-burning "Duchess" SWMTP took back at the 2011 NSS. A frind held up the black sheet so that the coal cinders wouldn't get washed out in the light.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Gary

Mr. Tony Dixon needs to use better coal in his Pemberton Models loco. Also, if this was while raising steam, this is possibly charcoal.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, yeah, yeah... GAS is so much safer!


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah... GAS is so much safer!


I've seen very similar poses many, MANY times in the past. We're all up for a little excitement from time to time!

My worst injury to date was caused by preventing a train wreck by two fingers to the smokebox door. I could have used the impressions in my fingertips to cast replacement smokebox door dogs!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Yeah, yeah, yeah... GAS is so much safer!"

Trying to stay away from THAT can of worms. Truth being that no mater which fuel is used, we are still "playing with fire." The old slogan used by the real railroads, Safety First, HAS to remain paramount. (This typed by the same guy who trimmed his eyebrows a few times before getting into the habit of turning on the blower first when checking the fire on a standing 1:1 locomotive.) 

Don't get quite as spectacular a pop when first trying to light off my Regner DeWinton, but I do try to stick the lighter over the stack and not my face. I'll wager that even the "Birmingham Piddlers" caused sufficient anxious moments.

Have fun, and Safety First,
David Meashey


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

If nothing else sure is pretty at night. I do wonder how much of their fuel is wasted being blown out the stack partially burned?


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, If this is any indication, here's what I've found. Fire it up inside on rollers (as I do) and let the CO monitor do it's thing. The dog will be out of his/her mind till you disable the alarm and air out the space. 
I learned a long time ago to open windows and let fans clear the air while doing that sort of foolish behavior. I'm assuming the CO is fuel burned in the absence of sufficient oxygen, hence unburned hydrocarbons. I think a certain amount of that is normal no matter what fuel we are using, but gladly open to correction.
Thank you monitor for the stars so I could correct my language.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

"Grate" video!!!!! Soft coal sure is colorful. Wonder what happened to the flora near the right of way?


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