# Aster JNR 8550 Mogul Questions



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys,
I have an old Aster JNR Mogul kit that I am finally getting around to building. It's my first Aster, and it is going to end up as East Broad Top #1, once I give it a new cab and stack, etc.

I started this afternoon and on the second instruction [2. Leading and Trailing Wheels], ran into a major issue. There are a pair of M2x4 screws holding the motion plate in position across the top of the frame on each side, and the leading wheels won't go in the frame with the bolts in place.

Did everyone just grind them down, or is there a better fix ? Or am I missing something ?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Pete,
I didn't build mine, but looking at it the 'flat head screws' appear to be unaltered.
There is perhaps just 1mm clearance on both sides.
Check the back to back of the front wheel set 'just in case' something is not correct.
mine are 40.90mm.
Outside of the frame is 37.86mm.
Being a 'very' old kit, maybe some parts have shrunk???
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, I have the manual on my computer and am looking at them now. I don't recall any problems, are the screw heads hitting the back side of the drivers? I looked at my engine and there is a mark on the back side of the drivers indicating some light contact but there is plenty of lateral movement. Check the back to back on your drivers. Mine are 41mm.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, that was quick! Thanks guys.

My dimensions are as you quote: 41mm b-to-b and 37.5-ish over the frames.



> Being a 'very' old kit, maybe some parts have shrunk???


And how would I tell? ;-)



> there is plenty of lateral movement.


Now there's a difference. I have maybe 0.5mm - the wheels rotate nicely but the side-to-side movement is minimal.

So I filed down 2 of the screw heads and inserted the front pair from the other side, so they stop the motion bracket rotating. Onward and Upward . . . Let's hope I don't have any more questions !


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Let us know if you do. 
One of the changes many have made on this engine is to raise the boiler up about 3/8 of an inch. I don't know how this will play into your EBT #1 
the parts you need to remake are 
Step11 part 94 (this is the hardest one)
step 17 parts 92,97,98,99,100
there is a pic of mine under the roster list on the Southern Steam Trains web site.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> One of the changes many have made on this engine is to raise the boiler up about 3/8 of an inch. I don't know how this will play into your EBT #1


Jeff,
Your engine looks very nice. Raising the boiler does seem to add 'presence'. 

However, EBT #1 needs the boiler just where it is. I'll have enough trouble converting it to butane (I'm not converting myself to alcohol just for this one loco!)


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete pretty simple as the small Regner ceramic burner is pretty much a drop in... Might still need a draft fan though and the blower as its pretty much a pot boiler.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> pretty simple as the small Regner ceramic burner is pretty much a drop in


I hope so, but I'm a long way from doing it. I'll need a gas tank as well . .


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah - now a really serious question. 

Being 30+ years old, the kit includes an asbestos sheet, which is not desirable these days. 
- Should I replace it ? 
- What precautions do I need to take if I install it ? 
- What do they use these days instead ?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

It's up to you.
I'm sure that if you put it in without roughing it up and breathing in the fibres it won't hurt you.
Nowadays I use ceramic sheet material, available in a variety of thicknesses, 1/16", 1/8" etc..
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete--MCMaster-Carr has non-asbestos material. If the kit was mine, I'd use the material that came with the kit. Moisten it before cutting to keep any dust down.
(Many, many years ago in my working life, I had OSHA training in dealing with the stuff.)

Larry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I got to the cylinders and found I need some "graphite yarn" for the piston packing. No sign of anything in the box. Anyone know where in the box they might hide it? Thoughts on a suitable substitute?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

From what I recall in my Schools days, it was just in a plastic bag with all the other parts. Its kind of black string.
If you can't find it, and don't want to find any, you can use plumbers teflon tape, and just twist it up into a 'string' and wrap it tightly in the groove.
It sounds like it is not going to be an 'easy' build!
But, have fun anyway.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I need some "graphite yarn"


Looks like I'm missing a whole bag of sealing material - yarn, gaskets, etc.

Thanks for the teflon tip David. I have some in my toolbox. I can probably make gaskets for the other areas. $1 bills, I understand ?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I don't know!
For a priceless antique Aster, I think that you have to use $20 bills - don't you?
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, here is some on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIVE-STEAM-...925?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4d5a4565


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeff,
I was 'thinking' that you would find 3/32" if too thick for the Aster piston groove.
But it might work as the groove is actually just a little wider than that and is quite deep so should actually be better than the teflon tape idea.
Fortunately I have a piston lying here to look at and remember what they look like.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete - send me your home address and I will send you some genuine Aster Teflon gasket material. Free no less. Or I will just send it to Dr. Rivet and you can pick it up there.

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Pete, here is some on ebay:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIVE-STEAM-...925?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4d5a4565


Jeff,
I was told (by Jim Pitts) that it is available from plumbing supply houses, so I did a google and found this in a Mamod forum:










There's a big Ace Hardware near me, so I will drop in later today.

The groove in my piston is pretty wide, so I think it will work. (I have packed a ton of teflon tape in it and that seems to be working so I now have two options.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Well, I don't know!
> For a priceless antique Aster, I think that you have to use $20 bills - don't you?
> Cheers,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


David,
I don't think you are taking this very seriously! 

Priceless? They made 3,000 or more and mine was easy to find. So it will have to put up with $1 bills.
Jim suggested Piedmont Steam Supply as a gasket source. We'll see what they come up with.

John - thanks. I sent you a PM.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Good find Pete, would not have thought to look at Ace for it.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete - there seems to be an issue with the PM service. I can not access it to get your address. Please send it to me at jallman(atsign)rwbaird(dot)com.
I have the yarn and a sheet of heat resistant packing you can use in the smokebox all ready to send out. But I cant read the message to get your address!
John


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Ha! I finally figured out how to read the PM. The package is on its way.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Good find Pete, would not have thought to look at Ace for it.


Ace had 1/8th string, and some thinner stuff that didn't look like string designed for faucets. The 1/8th turned out to be stranded, so I took out 2 strands and packed the piston. Problem solved, thanks guys (and the post on the mamod forum.)


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

John, thanks for the care package. It will be useful.



> so I took out 2 strands and packed the piston. Problem solved,


So I am back in FL with the parts all over the bench. Time to make progress. I bought some Permatex hi-temp gasket stuff to go with the $1 bill gaskets. 

Next Question: The piston moves in the cylinder, but I have no idea how tight it should be (or how loose?) I was trying to think of an empirical test -maybe put it flat on the bench with the piston rod up and measure how much weight to make the piston move? 
Is there a correct degree of tightness?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
It should be just tight enough!!!!!!
All you are doing is have the graphite yarn rub up against the cylinder wall to make a seal.
If there is a seal, then the steam pressure will not blow by the yarn.
So, I would make it so that it is NOT tight, but just a little tighter than so loose that there would not be a seal.
With your finger over the end of the cylinder, when you pull the piston back there should be a vacuum.
Good luck.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

OK David - I guess that makes sense, and it's what the instructions recommend. With a bit of steam oil soaked in, I do feel a vacuum.

Next question: When assembling the cylinders, I'm making gaskets to replace the missing ones. It has been recommended that I also use Permatex - which is not referenced in the instructions. Do I really need it?
And vice versa - if I use Permatex hi-temp gasket maker, why do I need a paper gasket as well? Anyone tried it on its own?

Another Q: the assembly says to add "packing solution" to the threads of the steam pipe, etc. Is that something else that is missing, along with the gaskets, from my kit? What is it, and will regular teflon thread packer do?


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Pete,

Many have used cut dollar bills to replace gaskets originally used on Aster locos. U.S. paper currency is 75% cotton and 25% linen so this fact helps explain the durability of U.S. currency.











As to packing, this generally refers to the tube of silicone sealant that is furnished by Aster. It is similar to white silicone RTV, but not identical. Perhaps others can shed more light?

I know that some well-known assemblers do not apply packing to gaskets, preferring to oil them instead. Maybe Ryan or Charles will pop in and add to the discussion? Aster generally recommends putting an ultra-thin coat of packing on the cylinder gaskets.

Cheers,

Joe


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
I would say that this all depends on how perfectly the metal pieces mate.
I met a gentleman in the UK who scratch built, and made his parts mate so perfectly that he used nothing at all between them and still managed to be leak free!
So, I would suggest using wet and dry on a very flat surface for the cylinder block (top and both ends), both sides of the steam chest and the steam chest cover and then just use oil on the gasket.
This will allow easy removal in the future should you need to.
If you doubt how flat everything is, then use some silicone type sealant.
Enjoy the build.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> If you doubt how flat everything is, then use some silicone type sealant.


Given that I'm making this in the spare room closet and don't have a flat glass surface, I think I can assume it isn't going to be flat.

I found some Permatex red hi-temp gasket maker at Autozone. I think I'll give that a try instead of chopping up dollar bills. Worst case means taking the cylinder apart and doing it again!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete I use the black high temp RTV as its oil resistant. 

You can also use silicone from the hardware store. 100% silicone, not any caulking. 

Remember when using the sealant you don't tighten the screws all the way until its cured. At least what I have done with no issues. Just snug then retighten the next day.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Pete I use the black high temp RTV as its oil resistant.
> 
> You can also use silicone from the hardware store. 100% silicone, not any caulking.


This red hi-temp stuff says it is silicone, so I think it will be fine. The only warning is to avoid gasoline.



> Remember when using the sealant you don't tighten the screws all the way until its cured. At least what I have done with no issues. Just snug then retighten the next day.


Good point. The instructions say to let it cure for an hour then tighten to torque specs. Fully cured in 24 hrs.

_Thanks for all the advice, guys! _


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_I have to say Ryan has my deepest sympathies if he has the make several kits at once. This one is severely testing my patience - I hope Aster improved their contruction and instructions with later models. _

So I got to check the gasket/sealant, as it turns out the cylinder crossheads are left/right, and I couldn't figure out what made them left or right until I had to install the pin for the rod. Of course, mine were backwards so the installed one on the working cylinder had to come off. Which meant removing the piston to unscrew it (the instructions said make it tight, so I did.)










There were plenty of traces of gasket/silicone all round which had to be removed, so think it worked fine. Of course, I couldn't get the piston back in without a fight, and with wet sealant on the cylinder cover it was quite a fiddle. Adding oil to the packing just messed up the gasket.










What was frustrating, apart from the little idiosyncrasies, was things like the screw to hold the crosshead guides to the cylinder cover. You can see it under the valve packing nut - which I had to unscrew to get a screwdriver in, upsetting all the work I already did. Luckily I have some tiny screwdrivers.

And how are you supposed to insert and hold the cresshead in from the back while you securely bolt it with the nut from the outside? Through the wheel ? I put it on and loosely added the nut while I put everything back together on the cylinder.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Yeh, it was probably best to do part 12 BEFORE part 11, wasn't it!
An avid Aster kit builder friend of mine always does a dry fit of everything to make sure that the instructions make sense and then changes the sequence when it doesn't make sense to him when he does the final assembly.
I think that the crosshead pin has a slot.
Maybe you will need to make a 'right angle screwdriver blade', so that you can get in behind the crosshead to tighten up the nut.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> An avid Aster kit builder friend of mine always does a dry fit


I can see why - and life (for me) is way too short. This problem came up 3 pages after the install instruction.



> Maybe you will need to make a 'right angle screwdriver blade', so that you can get in behind the crosshead to tighten up the nut.


David,
I want to know how you are supposed to get the pin into the crosshead from the back.

Clearly this is all do-able; I managed to screw in the retainer for the crosshead guides (after dismantling the valve packing.) I suspect I could have finagled the crosshead pin into the crosshead with the wheels at the right angle and with a screwdriver with a spot of glue on the end. But really . . . do I need this grief ? How about an instruction that explains why the crossheads are left/right BEFORE you install one.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I stopped for lunch (Happy Turkey Day anyone reading this) with a big problem. I was assembling the valve gear rocker, and it became clear that there wasn't enough rocker shaft to fit in the outside rocker (red arrow.) 










However, when I got back from lunch with a better attitude, I realized I could take out the rocker arm screw from the eccentric arm and remove the rocker shaft - maybe bash the shaft further through to put some more shaft outside the frames. Turned out the little thing in the inside rocker arm isn't a screw - it's a pin right through (green arrow.) So the shaft wasn't going to move. 

Looking at it, I then figured the inside rocker could be attached on the other side of the eccentric arm, closer to the frame. Guess what - the shaft then fit perfectly through the outside rocker. Maybe the instructions are wrong - it does say to attach it on the same side as the shaft.

I then fit the outside rocker arm and had a devil of a time making it stay on the shaft - it's held by a very tiny screw. I took it off and put a small flat on the rocker shaft - which will no doubt screw up the timing process. . . .


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
I am afraid that you have the whole eccentric assembly the wrong way around.
The bit with the cutouts should be to the inside of the chassis.
Then you can move the whole assembly across to be tight with the 'e' clip and then everything will line up.
Drawing number 4 is from underneath.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I am afraid that you have the whole eccentric assembly the wrong way around.
> The bit with the cutouts should be to the inside of the chassis.


Well . . . OK. Whether the drawing 4 is from underneath or not, it does show the eccentric sheave with the follower for reversing pointing towards the center of the frame.

However, I'm not sure that matters. An eccentric works the same whichever way it is mounted on the axle. The reversing is a 180 degree operation, so it shouldn't care which side of the eccentric it is mounted. I just completed timing the beast and it works as per the instructions.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Fine!
If you choose to not put your Aster kit together correctly, then who am I to point it out.
Enjoy,
Cheers,
David


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Fine!
> If you choose to not put your Aster kit together correctly, then who am I to point it out.
> Enjoy,
> Cheers,
> David


I am very happy to have someone pointing this stuff out. But I'm not a purist and the kit is going to be chopped into EBT #1, so it isn't going to be made "correctly" as you put it.

When I played with the eccentric, it appears that the slip part only shifts the eccentric 90 degrees. If that is so, it will have to be reversed.

Any way, work has now stopped for a few weeks. My small air compressor is still in MD and won't be here for weeks, so I can't run an air test, as suggested by the instructions. And I find myself without any handrail stanchions, (the next phase involves the cosmetics of the boiler cover) so I'll have to find some at Trackside Details.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks to me the linkage should bolt to the inside of the rocker arm


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Looks to me the linkage should bolt to the inside of the rocker arm


And indeed it should, according to Aster - as my photo shows it was that way when I first put it together. Not sure why that would matter?

Anyway, a 1/2 hour with the screwdriver and pliers and all is back where Aster says it should be, including moving the slip eccentric to the proper side. For the third time, the rocker was re-assembled - this time as per specs.
I was worried that the slip eccentric is not symmetrical - i.e. it doesn't move the motion 180 degrees. I will have to time it - again - and remove the valve cover - again - but there's plenty of gasket maker left. It can wait until I get the compressor from MD.

I'll get on with the tender and boiler while I wait.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> And indeed it should, according to Aster - as my photo shows it was that way when I first put it together. Not sure why that would matter?


Well done Pete.
I think that it matters because there will be less wear on the bushing as you are pushing from the inside of the rocker, and not the outside.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I think that it matters because there will be less wear on the bushing as you are pushing from the inside of the rocker, and not the outside.


You are assuming this beast will ever get to run. By the time it is finished I'll be in a wheelchair!

I'm just really fed up of using so much Loctite - a new application every time I dismantle something.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So I get to work on the boiler fittings while I wait for some handrail stanchions (Roundhouse, $7 for 10) and I'm supposed to fit the regulator/throttle with some packing to make it steam-tight.

At least I assume it is the throttle as it has a nice tapered end and some threads, although it doesn't look like the picture but it does look like the other spindle, just with a different top:










Anyway, it doesn't fit, and won't screw in. So after a lot of head scratching, I go back to the box and lo - there's another spindle, pretty similar to the one screwed in for the blower. It is hiding among the buffers (which, if you know your English, look much like this spindle and knob!)










So the question is - what's the other spindle for? The only thing I could think of was for the alcohol feed, but that is already mounted in the tank with a T-head on it.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Silver one kind of looks like the draw bar pin, but not at home to look at mine.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
See instruction number 36 - part #167.
Coupling pin. (as Jeff pointed out)
Hang in there, you'll get it finished yet!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Oh, by the way - check that the screws that hold the Regulator and Blower valves in are NOT magnetic!
Some of the early kits had steel ones - which of course would eventually rust out.
If they are, find some stainless ones, or brass.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> See instruction number 36 - part #167.
> Coupling pin. (as Jeff pointed out)


I would never have guessed. I suppose the tall, knurled end is to allow de-coupling easily, and the pointy bit eases it into the drawbar.


> Some of the early kits had steel ones


This sure is an early one, and I have 148 M2x4 screws that look like steel. No special ones for the boiler.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I never uncouple mine, but yes I guess it's easy to grab hold of and unscrew.
With regards to the screws, I would recommend getting some non steel ones to go into boiler then.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> I never uncouple mine, but yes I guess it's easy to grab hold of and unscrew.
> With regards to the screws, I would recommend getting some non steel ones to go into boiler then.
> Regards,
> David Leech, Delta, Canada


I just ordered 20 brass m2x4 from Mr Metric, which will replace the steel ones when they arrive. Using more sealant and loctite. . .


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI, I have brass M1.4, 2 and 3mm bolts in a hex head plus washers and small pattern nuts.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I got my M2x4 brass bolts and fitted them - and figured I should check what else was going to screw into this boiler. Besides the obvious stuff like safety valves, which are brass, I found 3 more screw holes threaded M2.6. One holds the sand dome and isn't magnetic, so that's probably fine. The others are magnetic, even though they are coated in something silvery.

A brief google turned up PEEK (Polyether ether ketone) which is apparently impervious to water and steam. Interesting, if I can't find any brass ones. 

http://solidspot.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=97_100_17_20&products_id=1567


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
I'm sure that you won't screw, or nut, anything up!
From what I recall, I don't think any other holes go directly into the inside of the boiler.
The ones on top all go into bushings that are blind.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> From what I recall, I don't think any other holes go directly into the inside of the boiler.
> The ones on top all go into bushings that are blind.


Well, whaddya know. I poked a small stick in and they are indeed blind and don't seem to go inside! Thanks again, David.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Things have been going well for this project, including a successful air test [which amazed me.]

So I got a few more steps done, in between resoldering the stack on the C-19 and other diversions. But Step 24 stumped me. I'm supposed to get my big fingers down the side of the boiler and put a nut on a 2.8mm bolt that I've fed through from the smokebox into the saddle.











I can't even get one started on the front hole! I do have a right-angle screwdriver but putting the nut on the bolt is unfathomable. You can see there isn't any room between the saddle and the cylinder cover.

In addition, the saddle curve doesn't match the boiler, so I've been judiciously bending and filing out the holes to make the bolts actually go through. But there are 4 holes - one is under the steam pipe coming down the side so it is inaccessible.

I took out a couple of 0-80 bolts and managed to fit them in the front holes.










The loose bolt is the 2.8mm that is supposed to work.

As far as I can see, the only way to get those bolts in would be to reverse a few steps, remove the boiler and fit the bolts first, then push the boiler inside the outer casing and screw it down. Any thoughts ?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Pete,
Never believe the early Aster drawings!
Put the screws in from the outside, and the nuts on the inside.
Only a couple more pages and you'll be finished.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

David,
I thought of that, but the back ones are still unreachable. You can see the rear one is under the steam pipe, so reversing it would be a problem. 
After I wrote 


> the only way to get those bolts in would be to reverse a few steps, remove the boiler and fit the bolts first, then push the boiler inside the outer casing and screw it down


I thought that was quite do-able, so I did it. The screws went in without much trouble once the boiler was out of the way. Had some fun getting the boiler back-plate over the footplate, but loosening things up did the trick. Oh, and I managed to drop one of the screws in the boiler :-( Doubt it will matter, and there were a few more in the bag. Whatever they are for will have to do without one!

They are very ugly, so I'll cut off the ends when I am done, before I paint all the screws black.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

That's why the heads should be on the outside, to look nice.
The steam pipe should not be connected when doing these four up so it will just slide up a little and out the way.
Well, you've done it your way anyway, so that's good.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, in your kitchen, what type of countertop do you have? If granite or a similar synthetic material, it has been factory ground. Over the small area our model parts involve, it will serve as backing for polishing paper for checking/lapping areas such as valve surfaces. Tip--the job will go smoother if your wife is not around, like when cleaning parts in the dishwasher.

Larry


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete
I have to disagree with Larry. Lay a piece of glass on the counter. If the counter top has been used at all it will have surface damage the makes it uneven.
I use various grades of Jeweler's Rouge on the glass for lapping and polishing.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

When Dan had the blowby issue on his S2 we thought it was valves or the piston rings, never thinking it was the dieblock in the valve lifting it off the deck. Anyway, Dan carefully lapped the valves and deck on glass and paper on his bench. After seeing the issue still arise we relapperd them on my lapping plate, starting with 320 and working up. Once I started, I knew I was in for a long time. The whole perimeter was taller than the middle. I can only assume it was from the glass giving sitting on his mat or the plate flexing. Not sure. But it sure was a dead flat surface after we were done. Then he found the dieblock binding on the valve. A little filing and it never was a problem again. And now its his boring running engine. Maybe he needs grades to fix that.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Dr Rivet said:


> Pete
> I have to disagree with Larry. Lay a piece of glass on the counter. If the counter top has been used at all it will have surface damage the makes it uneven.
> I use various grades of Jeweler's Rouge on the glass for lapping and polishing.


Well, thanks Jim, and Larry and Jason, for the tips. With only one little D valve, there isn't much to polish!

In the past I have used a sheet of glass - my worktop in MD is an old glass table leaf that is 48" by 15" and 1/2" thick. I used Brasso polish - it has some grit in it but seems to work.

I forgot this time - I was so busy with timing and making gaskets I did not polish it. But it runs very nicely on air, so I'll leave it until the final stages and see how much steam leaks out. If there is any steam - haven't even figured out the conversion to butane yet!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

There's a thread on the lighting the butane burner on the E6 with a fan.
http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/78138-lighting-butane-e6.html

I'm very interested in the topic, as my Aster JNR 8550 [on which you guys have been so helpful,] is getting to the point where the butane burner will soon be fitted. I have a 30mm round ceramic burner from Regner that looks like it can be squeezed into the firebox. I am a bit worried that I'll need a fan to get the ceramic burner to work. Any thoughts?

_As an update, here's the complete loco with new stack, wooden cab (Bronson Forney wooden cab, cut down.) The tender is from an Accucraft 4-4-0 with the gas tank and valve. The frame needs bolting to the tank, and the tender floor needs shortening, but otherwise I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel._


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So much for light at the end of the tunnel. However, I did finally get most of the loco finished, and reworked an Accucraft 4-4-0 tender to feed a Regner 30mm burner. Here's a pic of the first steam test, which wasn't successful - in the sense I didn't see steam. 










The check valve leaked - as it came as one piece, I didn't think to verify it worked! It all got very hot, as all steam engines do, but I chickened out after 15 minutes and turned the fire off (and it was lunch time.) In any case, the burner feed pipe fell off the hanger bracket - bad solder joint. Here's the new Regner burner on its first test.










I had fun with the tender. It has this convoluted gas feed, which takes off the back of the tank, curves around to a big brass piece in front of one side, where there is a gas valve sticking up and a pipe exits to connect the flexible gas hose.

The first test with the burner was fine except that the burner only stayed lit for a few seconds. After a couple of tries, I inadvertently passed the lighter over the tender and got flames from every singe pipe joint, including the filler! So that all got taken apart, cleaned, and a new O-ring was needed on the filler. I dropped it into the dish-wash water sitting in the bowl in the sink and was gratified when it didn't leak. This pic shows the bubbles when I opened the gas valve.










The jury is still out on the need for a blower/fan. I think I will need to move some of the really hot air out of the space around the boiler barrel as it is warming up. Ceramic burners just make things hotter and hotter!

Edit: Here's the underside, showing the burner fitted in one of the boiler jacket openings.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was also amazed when Mike Toney informed me that it is designed/spec'd for a 3m radius curve! (He found out his Schools is the same.) This pic shows the wheel at full side movement - it isn't touching the cylinder as there is a slot underneath to guide the pilot.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Yep, the Schools, JNR Mogul(both released in 1975) and the V&T Reno are all spec'd for a 3m radius min curve. I bet with only one working cylinder, that Mogul will be less slippery compared to the Schools. She, like her prototype, is a hand full to get grip on the rails. Even with added weight in the cab on mine. Mike


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

*Radius*

Hello,

My Aster 4-6-0 BR38 is specified as needing 3m radius. However, simply temporarily removing the push-on mimic forward piston covers, enables much tighter radius. I also added sideway play on the axle pump, and at least when just pushing the engine through 1m radius, there is no discernable resistance. Though because of buffers interlocking with coatche buffers, I haven't tried less than slightly more than 2m radius under steam.

I don't like sticky goo in machines, even if supplied by Aster  I just soaked all packings in oil overnight. And for fittings and pipe unions, I used teflon tape. I know that comes apart easily.

However, another member of Stockholm Livesteamers has both assembled, as well as done some dissassembling, using the Aster silicone, and thinks it's alright.

A more controversial modification of mine, is replacing stainless steel balls in valves for high temperature elastic balls. Make sure though, if you can't get the exact right diameter, that the valve still is able to work correctly... guess how I know 

Anders


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

... by the way, I'm considering converting to gasfiring. 1) alcohol firing too easily causes fires, making me unpopular on other people's tracks 2) causes reoccurring paint refurbishing... 3) fuel isn't easily obtainable 4) Alcohol firing gives me a soar throat. In fact, that might be my primary reason. 5) It's just doesn't add running fun proportional to the troubles. I might consider coal firing though - if that engine also makes gasfiring possible. ;-D

Anders


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Over here, fuel is easy to come by, maybe easier than butane for some if you dont have a smoke shop or Walmart near by. Pretty much any hardware store has the alcohol in thier paint dept. Yes it does take some care with handling, keeping a can of Co2 or that style of fire extinguisher is a good idea. The gas burner is a good idea and its been done by others. TME of the UK offered thier little quarry Hunslet with all 3 option, gas, coal and alcohol with an interchangable cassette set up in the fire box. So with one engine, you could chose your fuel at the time of order or get all 3 if one so desired.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah. The 3m radius issue with this loco is nothing to do with the pilot. It's the all-flanged drivers, I bet.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

The 3 m radius of the early ASTERs has to do with the Back-to back measurement; on later locomotives this was changed to a lower value (from 42/41 to 40/39 or .... (I do not remember the values).
Regards
Fred


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete,

I know of one Aster BR38 / P8 builder, who turned the back of the wheel centres thinner, giving larger clearance to the axle bearings, giving greater sideway play. You need a lathe though. (Only the center part on the wheelback can be turned down, turning the flanges changes back-to-back measure, making running through normal switches impossible.)

I just noticed a thing on your model. If you could move the axle bearings more towards the middle of the axle, they would protrude less on the outside of the frames, allowing greater sideway play. What i noticed, is that the bearings seem to be positioned on the axles by clip-on washers (correct term?). On the center axle however, there is also a sleeve round the axle that together with the eccentric disk, could be used to ajust sideway play. Perhaps the sleeve is it part of the eccentric, but that doesnt change my reasoning. If you remove the clip-on-washers on the center axle, the bearing could be positioned so that they are flush with the outer frame surfaces. Perhaps putting a larger clip-on-washer on the other side of the inside rim on the axle bearing (has to be larger of course ;-) to position the bearing, Making thinner clip-on- washers on either side of the bearing might be another trick. Perhaps even just replacing both the original clip-on-washers with thinner ones, would give enough play - especially since this canalso be used on the front and rear axles. On those, perhaps making clip-on sleeves could be useful.

Again I mention sideway play on the eccentric fork rod (wording?), not causing grinding drag, and play and clearance on all other parts of the motiongear have to be checked.

Good luck!

Anders


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, thanks for the information and suggestions.


> You need a lathe though


I have friends with machine shop equipment, should I wish to do something drastic. At this stage (after 3 years) I am perfectly content to let it sit as a 'shelf queen' once I get it to actually steam. I do not relish removing the center wheelset - though if I did I would probably have the flanges turned off so it can navigate tight curves without affecting the geometry set by Aster.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

We could learn how to use my Unimat together, Pete!



Jerry


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete.

You will report more on firing up, I hope? Maybee this is an unnessesary concern, but how do yuo check if the burner lights / stays lit? With a noisy poke burner, you can usually tell by the sound ;-)

/Anders


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I would guess feeling for heat from the top of the chimney. not sure you could see anything with a dental mirror lookup up at the burner like you can with the alcohol wick burner.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli said:


> Pete.
> 
> You will report more on firing up, I hope? Maybee this is an unnessesary concern, but how do yuo check if the burner lights / stays lit? With a noisy poke burner, you can usually tell by the sound ;-)
> 
> /Anders


The burner is Regner, and it seems to light with a pop when you stick a flame near it and stay lit. After that, you can feel the heat rising in the boiler jacket and the chimney/stack.
There are 2 places under the boiler that used to have alcohol wicks. Only one is now full of burner, so you can actually almost see what is going on. You can also drop the burner easily, as the front sticks in the hole that the alcohol burner was designed to fit. As the rear solder joint turned out to be useless, my actual test was with the burner pretty loose, so I could easily drop it or lift the loco clear.

I'm waiting for a fan to suck the heat down the flue - and working on some other projects. More if/when it happens.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Can't believe I started this 4 years ago. Anyway, it got to the top of the project list (while I wait for a servo for the K4 and a sound system for the tram.) Here's an update and some queries.


I did try to fire it last season (winter) but the check valve leaked (must have had a bit of pressure!) It got back-burnered again.


Finally got a small fan that is supposed to be heat resistant (pics of the blower when I get this b***r steaming.) I also resoldered the fuel pipe that leads to the burner and re-assembled it. Set everything up on the outdoor table, and filled the boiler. It was full of brown stuff - looks like rust.











I had left a smidgen of water in the boiler last year (expecting to get back to it sooner.) I sucked out all the water, as you can see. It's definitely not a chemical - you can see particles in the water if you stir it.











Any ideas what might be rusting? The mounting bolts were replaced with brass, per David's suggestion. I can't think of any others, though it is a few years since I put it together - I should probably dig out the instructions.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Pete Thornton said:


> Can't believe I started this 4 years ago. Anyway, it got to the top of the project list (while I wait for a servo for the K4 and a sound system for the tram.) Here's an update and some queries.
> 
> 
> I did try to fire it last season (winter) but the check valve leaked (must have had a bit of pressure!) It got back-burnered again.
> ...



wonder if it is some sort of a reaction- My M&PA #30 0-6-0 which has an accucraft boiler did the same thing. water in the boiler and in the sight glass had this "rusty" sludge, and there is no steel in an accucraft boiler.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I don't know what was in the water, and I will be draining it again today when the loco cools down, but I had a successful bench test this am.








It doesn't need the fan, as I hoped it wouldn't. But you can't see the burner or tell if it is working. If the gas is up too far, the flames come out the back boiler shroud opening (there are 2 - see pic at top of this page.)


So, call it a day and sell the beast, or do a track test? I wonder.


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