# Wood for ties/sleepers, What i am experimenting with.



## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

Yes i made a separate tread to not hijack a previous tread, but to help the OP of that tread!
Wood For Ties | G Scale Model Train Forum (mylargescale.com)

Short introduction:
I have been experimenting with wooden ties for over a year now and making tracks in several ways.
Even did a study into road and railroad engineering, ect.
As a carpenter for over 30 years i handled a lot of wood and have decent machinery.

The best successes so far are shown in the pictures:
















Some of the experiments that where a succes.









From top to bottom:
1 Untreated oak.
2 Untreated azobe, estimated functional life span untreated 20 years.
3 Oak with wood stain(never again) it will soak in completely but you have to redo it every two years.
Estimated functional life span untreated 15 years.
4 Untreated fir (coniferas) Estimated functional life span untreated 15 years.(i have read story's and seen pictures of 20 year old)
5 Bankirai with wood stain (never again) it will NOT soak in completely but you have to redo it every one or two years.
Estimated functional life span untreated 15-20 years.
In general:
For treatment i would recoment a oil, up to creosote if allowed in your country, but why bother.
To preform that job the propper way you will need a vacuum chamber.

Creosote and carboleum are forbidden in my country, wood stain give a to big mess.
With wood stain it will get messy if done in bulk.
I prepare a bucket with 2.5 liter of wood stain and dunk all my pre slotted ties/sleepers in, let them soak for 6 hours, take them out let them dry, next batch.
After 24 hours the wood stain will become soggy, adding terpentine or water(depending on your type of wood stain) will not help.
The tannine and cellulose in the wood itself will make this mess.
But the residue is a perfect hdpe glue, yes i could not get some ties of a hdpe cradle, i had to use force and help of a chisel...










Treated and untreated oak with wood stain










treated bankirai with wood stain.
You can clearly see the unwanted effect of not soaking in entirely and left outside for a year.









Untreated fir(coniferas)
Treatment is very good to do.









My favorite:
Azobe.
In the real railroad world the also make there ties/sleepers of this wood, US of A is no exception.
Most gardening centres in Europe have this wood in stock as fence poles.
How to work with hard woods in general, simple:
Table saw, cut off saw and for the slots also a table saw.
Just normal wood blades, nothing fancy.
When cutting beams length wise use bigger teeth when making slots use smaller teeth.
For drilling a hole for the nails a regular drill bid according to size will do fine.
Or a small nail gun, the speed of the nail driving into the wood, gives the wood no time to react thus split.










Moving on to the modern age of techy techy...
3d printed ABS uv resistant, self life approx 15 to 20 years.
Hdpe would be far better, but you can not print that, aldo there are some hobbyist that claim that they had success.
Casting plastic would be better.

My next endeavours will be re-investigate wood, i think i am done with 3d printing.(live steam could melt the sleepers?)
All my work is prototypical correct. lgb material will probably derail on my track.

A little show off:
















A not yet finished 5 way turnout, but the results are very promising.
The other completed projects/work is very effective.

My two cents
With best regards Igor.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

justme igor said:


> A not yet finished 5 way turnout, but the results are very promising.


Awesome. Thanks for the photos.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I see that azobe wood can be gotten for ties in the USA, surprise, but the previous desired wood was usually oak, so I'm sure that is getting scarce. Very interesting.

I see you keep mentioning that "All my work is prototypical correct. " But not even your railhead is prototypical. I don't know why you keep stressing this, you have posted you reduced your wheel gauge to fit your track, etc. 

Example, the FRS says that your back to back cannot vary more than 1/4".... in 1:32 that is 7.8 thousandths of an inch... 

To be even more clear, max flange depth is 1.5", in 1:32 that is 0.047" from the tread to the max of the flange.... 0.06 is really difficult....

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol4/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol4-sec230-112.pdf actual government document....

Your turnouts are still way sharper than prototype, the turnout next to my house has a #21 frog...

Honestly, no one has succeeded to use prototype wheel contours on outside track in g scale.

I'm not demeaning your creativity, nor your ability to come up with ingenious solutions, but please stop the "prototypically correct" stuff. It's just not possible outdoors, and no one expects it. You have to make compromises. 

Greg


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## uzenmajek (Jun 15, 2021)

You're really doing a great job I must commend. This is something very unique and uncommon.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Igor,
Great job.



Greg Elmassian said:


> Honestly, no one has succeeded to use prototype wheel contours on outside track in g scale.


Greg,
I know that you will disagree, but the 1/32 Finescale group seems to be doing fine with it.








1:32F - Locomotives


Since some say that it's impossible* for Exact Scale trains to run successfully out of doors, here is Mark Wood's BR 4MT doing precisely that, in a natural scenic landscape on his Railway :




sites.google.com




Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Igor 
Great work and that 5 way point is a work of art. I would be very happy to run on your track.
Greg re your reply...
When Igor says his 'specifications' are prototypical correct I think he is really saying back-to-back wheel measurements and frogs are to a much finer tolerance and closer to prototype than many other popular G scale track makers and his radius seems to be a good compromise and not as sharp as the 4 to 6 foot radius used in many garden railways. None of us have room for 30 foot plus radius curves and #21 frogs on points, not even the finescale guys in the UK, but getting better tolerances if you have the room is the way to go and Igor's track looks good.
Russell


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## Squirrel40 (May 18, 2021)

Are you using red or white Oak? White Oak is weather resistant, red Oak has hollow grains and rots easily.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

David, anyone can call anything FineScale.... I am talking prototypically correct, i.e. scaled down from prototype. Not the same kettle of fish at all.

please check the NMRA standard:


https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-4.1_2006.01.pdf



There are 2 sctions to that page, the first is prototype dimensions.....
the second section is "Finescale Options", almost DOUBLE.... compare HO in both charts.

Great, Finescale outdoors, approximately double the tolerances, sure...

PROTOTYPE dimensions scaled down... NO WAY.... feel free to show me a 1:32 train running outdoors with a wheel flange depth of 0.99 mm...

This is what I am talking about... also if you would read Igor's other posts here, and on GScaleCentral.com, you will read additional deviations from even the standards, changes to accommodate a large loco he is making, etc.

A great imagination, interesting ways to make things, but PROTOTYPICAL, not at all... The word has a definition in the English language.

Greg


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

I typically don't care for the groove track style, but your turnouts are some of the best groove style examples I've seen. The 3D printed frogs are cool, but I do prefer the way you made the frog check rails blended in from the wing rails. This is how I do it when I need to make a frog that is irregular or I don't have a casting for. I can't tell from the picture, are the frog points on the five-way plastic still? Luckily you can have aluminum machined pretty easy into a point/wedge. That would be ideal over PLA/ABS, but there is an advantage of just simply printing more and swapping them out I suppose.

Nice work!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've recommended a metal frog insert, that sharp plastic "tip" won't last, I agree.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I see that azobe wood can be gotten for ties in the USA


Are you basing that on finding some or are you presuming Igor is in the USA? Isn't that a Dutch flag under his name? And english is probably his second language, so go easy on the corrections?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He's mostly on GScaleCentral, many more posts, and I know he is not in the USA, that is why I am questioning stuff that is not readily or inexpensively available in the US. This is not the first time.

You should read some of the posts on GScaleCentral on his track and tweaking of standards to suit a custom loco 4-14-4 as I believe.... then you will understand the context.

His "prototypical" wheel gauge is 44mm but he recently reduced it to 40 on his 4-14-4 loco... Just saying that if you want to say your track or loco is prototypically correct but you don't even reach finescale standards, then it is not prototypically correct.

We've had endless discussions where the dimensions are not divulged. So, if you want to advertise something as true in a public forum, especially something virtually impossible to accomplish, you should back it up.





__





Bringing the AA20 (Andrey Andreev 20 ton per axle) back to life...4-14-4


I think this is the right section of the forum? . . . . . . ...




www.gscalecentral.net





Greg


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

You could not be wrong more, just like our conversation about li ion.....


Greg Elmassian said:


> He's mostly on GScaleCentral, many more posts


You want to know them all about track making the good the bad and the ugly.....
Here is where i started and how.....:
Track making/making tracks: the good, the bad and the ugly, advice and thoughts wanted, explanation is giving(incl mistakes) | G Scale Central

I even started a course?!?!?!!?!?Road and railroad engineering!
Enlisted on better forums to be better educated.....shared my adventures....?
There are more communities that build prototypical or fine scale.....A LOT MORE THEN JUST ME

I came a long way of learning to achieve what i achieved right know.(40 year old wish btw)(including wheel sets, boogies what ever)...and yes it is not perfect yet, except for the dimensions...they are prototypical!!!!!!!!!!!
**** off Greg i am done with you, nothing i do is good enough for you.....
Dispute all your warnings or your threads...i achieved what i wanted.....Still not there but almost there....
WRONG TIMING WRONG MOMENT>>>>YES I AM CRANKY.....And done with you.....nothing what i do will please you...
BUT IT WORKS?????SURPRISE I AM.....
Atm i have 106 Kwh on li ion cells and expending atm 100 kwh with lifepo4......That is where it started...right?a simple discussion about the use of li ion cells second handed? for a man that could not afford some new li ion cells.....still waiting for my "second lesson" i am a true engineer btw(2 times btw almost 3x), i just urn below 50000 clean a year with out tax, yes that is to low for you.....After tax i can keep 75.000 a year...oooo wait we have a different tax system , o sorry battery university was kinder garden.....
Dont't get me started on lead...i am a metallic ing too, you remember...

YES i am building the AA20 prototypical in live steam.....i have the room /garden to be the first one!!!!! that will succeed...
Yes flange debt will be 1 whole mm not 0.99mm....my track is 45mm exactly..my boogies are flange to inside flange 44 mm AKA 0.5MM between flange and rail.....
Told you several times before.....on g scale central....
Yes i have to make consessions to make the AA20 work, but now instead of a flange to flange base of 39mm i am to a flange to flange base of 42mm
Yes it must have it own track....with some adjustments(for the aa20) but i will get there, wtf you care, all your warnings i did not do anything with them because they are not counted for...or hold any value/ground...and still i am getting there, exactly what i want...
Bringing the AA20 (Andrey Andreev 20 ton per axle) back to life...4-14-4 | G Scale Central 
Time is my biggest enemy...to achieve my dreams, and yes i dont follow my dreams i hunt them down..........

My 5way switch is 2 meter 60 in length..my normal turnouts are 1 meter 50cm in length...you are right this is not proto typical 80 km an hour turnouts....
My scale is p1:32....

This comment will be deleted if a moderator reads it, please copy before it will be deleted it...thank you.
The rest of the members i will give a decent replay that they deserve, sorry, tomorrow.

Dear Greg you have a excellent choose of words beyond my understanding, but i understand enough about the american English language that you really do not approve what i am doing......
WHY NOT is my question........ it is all about experimenting:
If we all would follow the same person we would be still walking in bearskins and ........you get my drift.......

With my best regards and apologises to all those that are a withniss..... a 3 forum width spread anger have to end like this, there are limits, and i will draw the shorted straw...I dont care anymore, sorry Greg, this was to much...Ofcourse you will have your word ready, i give up i am done....Also on gscale central...thank you.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've had my say Igor, and it is not with malice, I fully appreciate how difficult it will be to achieve the loco you are making. I'm sure it will look great.

You have done an incredible job with the flat bar track. I think when you put metal inserts in your frogs, your switches will be astounding, and as you state much less expensive than commercial ones.

But my single point is that you will not achieve prototype dimensions on your track and wheels and run outdoors. That's all. Nothing else.

Greg


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> That's all. Nothing else.


And the rest?
Lead is banned in California?? for example.
Pla will deteriorate...do your home work you wrote in capital...
Li ion is not save fire hazard ect...do your home work???? i just tested a mare 20.000 18650's with moderate equipment built myself, easy.
In general you are making things more difficult to people give up..so you can trive...
Just to mention some examples....
Go back to school Greg...and leave me alone, and learn some thing things your self....like simple mechanics or basic electronics....


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

uzenmajek said:


> You're really doing a great job I must commend. This is something very unique and uncommon.


If i may ask for the unique and uncommon: the 5way or in general my work? and thus my approach?
I am curios.

Best


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

ferroequinologist said:


> When Igor says his 'specifications' are prototypical correct I think he is really saying back-to-back wheel measurements and frogs are to a much finer tolerance and closer to prototype than many other popular G scale track makers and his radius seems to be a good compromise and not as sharp as the 4 to 6 foot radius used in many garden railways.


1:15 - 47 meter - 80 km/h real life a regular main line turnout in the Netherlands in scale just 1 meter 40
Would be be 47000 / 32 = 1469mm 
gauge 45mm exacly between the rail and 44 mm between the flanges would make 0.5mm between flange and rail*32...i think this is very close..



ferroequinologist said:


> I would be very happy to run on your track.


Any time when you are in the Netherlands you are welcome


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

Squirrel40 said:


> White Oak is weather resistant


we only have white oak, main inland, the hardest type i can get, we used to build "windmolens" with that one.
For making sleepers i would not recommend.
It will last at top 15 years.


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## justme igor (Aug 9, 2020)

MGates said:


> Luckily you can have aluminum machined pretty easy into a point/wedge


Atm i am saving for a cnc machine, but i will go into full depth of your answer/questions


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## JCGIII (Sep 20, 2017)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I see that azobe wood can be gotten for ties in the USA, surprise, but the previous desired wood was usually oak, so I'm sure that is getting scarce. Very interesting.
> 
> I see you keep mentioning that "All my work is prototypical correct. " But not even your railhead is prototypical. I don't know why you keep stressing this, you have posted you reduced your wheel gauge to fit your track, etc.
> 
> ...


Greg,
I can't believe that you are picking on his use of terms when the entire focus of his presentation is his experience and results with different types of wood for rail ties. He is not at all focusing on prototypical dimensions of track gauge. And you keep going on and on and on with the same theme. Reminds me of a joke - "When you are up to your hips in alligators, it is time to remember your job was to drain the swamp".


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## Gandydancer1653 (Nov 13, 2021)

IGOR! 
you sir, are one creative guy! Keep going! And dont stop! I'm from oregon in the usa, i live in a lumberjack town, and have asked about different kinds of wood, all the lumberjacks have recommended redwood or red cedar. So i too have experimented and found red cedar soaked in used diesel oil (from my local mechanic) for my crossties. Some of my trackwork has been outside for over 10 years now and i still have not had to replace any! But i also use a PVC ladder Sub roadbed to hold all this in place. And for spikes, #18-1" brads/nails go through the ties into the pvc sub roadbed securing the aluminium, code 332 with 1/2" by 4” ties, for a more narrow gauge look, and with all due respect to the rivet counters and scale perfectionists out there, at 10 feet away, i've been told by real railroaders, "that is the most realistic track i've ever seen!" So, keep on tracking!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I use oak ties and brass or nickel silver rails to make my turnouts. My old turnouts on my older layout lasted from 1981 untill now (2022) and are still going strong although I have had to rebuild quite a few from left hand to right hand to fit on my new layout. I treated them in a mix of creosote (now unavailable) old motor oil and a bit of tar paint this keeps the colour much longer. I admit that I have had to change a few ties now and then either because they split or warped (on long switch ties) or even rotted. But not many. I use brass pins to hold the rail down instead of spikes because I lived in a very humid environment in the greater Paris erea, with my track wet from late october until march (steel spikes would have rusted through). Therefore I drill through the rail base to hold the rail down with these a tedious process. As these come loose after a while I regularly push them back in , lately I have begun to make copper U shaped clips from electrical wire (usually salvaged) stripped and formed into a U shape and pushed through holes in the ties then bent over the rail base. This I do every 3 to 4 inches to secure the gauge throughout, this has given these fairly old points a new lease on life. These old ties are 1cm X 1cm section. the 3 turnouts on the outside track are olds rebuilt.









On the inside track is a new build which uses much thinner Oak ties of 1cmX 0,5cm at a much closer tie spacing to be compatible with the Märklin track with which I equiped my new pikes mainlines, same overal technique, however I feel that in the much dryer climate which I live in now in Ardèche I can risk using much thinner ties besides at my age I dont think that I will need to use this railway more than twenty years from now anyways. This is a much larger radius switch a N° 10 which is supposed to represent a medium speed prototype switch (say a N° 20) The older switches are all N° 8 as I have found that with buffers and hook and chain, continental couplers with this size switch there is no buffer locking (by experience). The frogs are built up and soldered to a brass plate which keeps everything in place. The tie rods are 1,5mm diameter brass rod, the points are insulated beyond the frogs on the inside rails.








I have been operating with this trackwork on my old railway for nearly 40 years with very few derailments at all speeds All in all my new layout now has 28 turnouts of which only 5 are from the trade, and I must say that these are the ones that give me the most hastle. These N°10 points have been in service now for over a year with no problems either.








This photo shows the same erea now with ballast and more scenicked with the stone walls. it is my representation of Horseshoe curve at the correct radius. the line veering off to the left leads to the wye, (the track had been kicked out of alignement during the ballasting). it is still not ballasted and is my old track dating to 1978 still in good use having been renovated in 2016, the lead at the far left will be going to the steaming bay and should be laid down shortly now. along with the turntable. The other lead to the wye is in the background on a high brick wall these go to the indoor terminus. The bridge over the tracks in the right foreground will be disguised as a tunnel (Gallitzin) and is for the lawn mower access to the garden. The layout is steam and electric by track power.
Cheers, Simon


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

That's beautiful pointwork Simon that would enable 'express' speeds and is well made far better than most proprietary ones and I assume yours in the photo to be around 4.5m radius.
Russell


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Simon, what standards did you use for your trackwork? 

With the very "long" frogs of #10 etc, the wing rail dimensions and flangeways are tricky.

Would also be interested in your standards for wheels, mostly flange thickness and depth.

Beautiful stuff !!!

Greg


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Well as we all know if you go fine scale (a thing I once practiced in HO scale many years ago) you have a captive layout, where friends can't come to enjoy a run or an operating session. Because of that, I have set my layout to the G1MRA standards, but a bit closer to fine scale like 40mm (Or just a touch over that) back to back on most of my scratch built stock. It works very well. I also regauge any equipment that isn't to those standard. I use an old hand drill mounted on a column, that I bought at a flea market years ago (my first drill press) which has a screw feed as wheel puller or press to set wheelsets the way I want them. But for the reason stated above I stay within the G1MRA standards. Flange depth is usually 1mm to 1,5 mm. I returned the flanges on my earlier MTH units (GG1, F3 the more recent VO1000 and PA1 is 1,5 mm, too bad they stopped making them, just when they had figured it all out...) This is because my earlier layout had much smaller rail around code 190 or so available in France and which was perfect for the much lighter French railway rail, I still use it recycled on the Y portion of the layout. Of course having a sturdy concrete base very carefully made is a big advantage and helps to go towards fine scale. With track laid on gravel and loose as often seen in garden railroads you need the rigidity of the heavier rail. The photo below shows my scratch built 2D2 9100 (in brass) coming out of the indoor terminal on this recycled handlaid track. (It will be ballasted sometimes in the futur; Once ballasted it looks very realistic this track is 38 years old renovated with one new tie every other tie in 2016)

Actually I learned to make pointwork when I was thirteen years old because I wanted to model narrow gauge HOn3 and in the sixties ready made turnouts for that gauge didn't exist. Then when I moved up to gauge one I just kept the same methods I had learned in many fine Model Railroader articles of the time. At that time I used files to make all the parts, frogs, and switch rails, which was tedious. Then later I speeded things up with the use of a grinder. Now I make my switch rails almost ready to use with the grinder, I just do a small clean up with the file after shaping them with the grinder. I also benefited from many very authoritative articles in the G1MRA Newsletter on some of the finer points in pointwork by Stewart Hines and a few other authors.

Having friends visit for a run or GTG is one of the most pleasant aspects of this hobby.
Best, Simon


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