# PROPER GRAMMAR



## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I didn't want to take Jerry's topic in a different direction, so I am posting this as a separate, but similar subject. 

It has come to my attention, in the most annoying manner over the last few years, that the word "an" seems to have become extinct. Believe me, I am no grammar wizard, but I do try and work at speaking properly when in a conversation. When I was in school, many, many years ago, I was taught that *an* was used before words like "historic, object, interesting". So one would say, *I visited an historic site, or she is an object of my dreams, we had an interesting conversation*. More and more, that rule seems to have changed to *a historic, a object, a interesting*. Even when listening to news reports on TV and radio. 
So when did the education system decide to alter the language?


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## bob7094 (Jan 3, 2008)

I was taught that "a" precedes a consonant, and "an" precedes a vowel or silent consonant. To me, the "h" in "historic" is not silent. That may vary with living to the left or right of the pond, or maybe in New England.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

"Historic" seems to be the only consonant-starting word for which "an" is typically used. (I'd be interested in hearing others.) What's weird is that you never hear "He's an history teacher," but it's always "an historic occasion." 

Weirdness... 

Later, 

K


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Down here in Texas we use 'fixin' and 'is' for everything. Like I is fixin to sign of this puter. lol.







Or like the SWA stewardis said last Sunday...."make sure your bags is under the seat". I give up. If they had spell check and gramar check on here it would eliminate a lot of the miscues.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

"AN" historic has always bothered me. I would be the last one to ask what is proper usage though. I agree with an object and an interesting ...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's an honor to suggest another.... I was instructed that H's get them too.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 29 Oct 2009 07:15 PM 
Down here in Texas we use 'fixin' and 'is' for everything. Like I is fixin to sign of this puter. lol.







Or like the SWA stewardis said last Sunday...."make sure your bags is under the seat". I give up. If they had spell check and gramar check on here it would eliminate a lot of the miscues.
John

The MLS HTML editor has a built in Spell-check feature available on the tool-bar. While the Quick Reply editor does not provide any native Spell-check there are browser plug-ins/add-ons that can be installed if the browser that you use doesn't provide that functionality. As for grammar checking, I'm not aware of any available other than those in word-processing applications.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I had a Texan room mate for a couple of years. He always said "afixin" " I am afixin to go to lunch." I taught him english and he taught me the feel of a good pair of hand made cowboy boots. I have not owned a pair of shoes or sneakers since. And that was back in the 60s.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Wasn't the debate of "a historic moment" Vs. "an historic moment" spelled out in the John Cleese film Clockwise?

In the end, which one did the proper UK headmaster finally use?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 29 Oct 2009 06:57 PM 
It has come to my attention, in the most annoying manner over the last few years, that the word "an" seems to have become extinct. 



Hi Dan,

The word "an" is perhaps the most confusing word for me to use correctly. Even when I use it correctly in writing I then look at it and it neither looks right nor sounds right.

Perhaps you are correct and it is becoming extinct - at least in everyday usage. I have not given up on using it properly because I do think the proper use of our language is important - especially for those in or entering the job market. 

Many of the jobs I have held would not be available to me today because the current minimum education requirements are beyond my qualifications.

Jerry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The one that really grates on me is the use of "fun", whcih used to be a noun but is now all kinds of things. 

When I was growing up, we "had fun" or something was "so much fun". Now it seems that anything goes with the poor word.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If often depends on how one pronounces a word as to whether or not the preceeding article should be "a" or "an". Words such as "historic" can be either easily preceeded by "an" or "a" based on very slight variations in how the first utterance of the word is done. For ME, if it is "breathy" then it pronounces easier with "an" but if it starts more abruptly then "a" is better. But that does not mean that any sort of knowledgable body of "grammar police" that "sets the rules" would agree.

Of course, now the question arises as to who sets the rules?

I remember when I was in the 5th grade, I had a teacher that was dead set on getting rid of the use of the word, "ain't". It didn't matter where you were or who you were talking to, if she heard you use the word "ain't", she would interrupt you to correct you. In class, on the playground, at the grocery store on Saturday afternoon... If she heard you, you got corrected... "There is no such word as, 'ain't'!"

That year there was an article in the newspaper wherein it was stated that the "National Council of English Teachers" had "declared" that the word "ain't" was "perfecly acceptable English, even by the likes of 'Emily Post'." (Anybody here remember who Emily Post was?)

I cut the article out of the newspaper and took it to school to show the teacher... OH! A DUMB DEED! She never again corrected anyone for using "ain't", but I could not open my mouth but what she stomped on my tongue! 

If I used the article "a", she would stop me and say it should have been "an"... and vice versa.


If I said, "Who", she would correct me, "It's 'WHOM'!". And if I said, "Whom", she would correct me, "It's 'WHO'!". 

One of the things that she particularly berated me for, in front of the whole class, was when I said in math class that "The graph could not be done because the data are not complete." She interrupted ME, and the whole class, telling me that I was "ignorant of the fact that 'data' is a singular noun, like 'family. One would not say, 'The family ARE going to the store', would you? Of course not! So you see how clearly wrong Charles is to say, 'data are not complete'."

Of course, today, she would be totally wrong, because the National Society of Technical Editors has declared that the word "data" is a plural noun and requires a plural verb; thus, "Data ARE transmitted". I remember one wag wrote a letter to the editor of, "Electronics Magazine" saying that he always wrote, "Data AM transmitted." and let the editor correct it per the grammar rule du jour.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

When we were kids we used to say. "Ain't ain't in the dictionary!"


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

"An" can be tricky to use right. I sometimes have to re-read what I've typed to see if it sounds right.


I was taught to put "an" before vowel words and before historic and hour. Although "a historic ..." also sounds correct to me.



Another usage of "an" that really puzzles me is how to apply it before acronyms. "an LGB locomotive" sounds better to me then "a LGB locomotive". But which style is the correct one to apply?


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 30 Oct 2009 08:40 AM 
The one that really grates on me is the use of "fun", whcih used to be a noun but is now all kinds of things. 

When I was growing up, we "had fun" or something was "so much fun". Now it seems that anything goes with the poor word. 
I think it is funner to use more fun but the funnest of all is the most fun


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Spule 4 on 30 Oct 2009 06:28 AM 
Wasn't the debate of "a historic moment" Vs. "an historic moment" spelled out in the John Cleese film Clockwise?


I don't know about it being in "Clockwise", but it did come up by a caller on the radio program "A Way with Words" and the hosts' opinions were that you shouldn't use "an" with "historic" because the "h" is not silent like it is in "hour" and "honor/honour". You wouldn't say, "I'm reading an history book", would you? Made sense to me. Hope that doesn't make me a (not "an") heretic!


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Here's one explanation I heard for 'a' or 'an' before words starting with 'h'. 
If the word is derived from the French/Latin (with an aspirated 'h'), it's 'an', otherwise 'a'. 
So 'an' before 'hotel', 'historic', 'horrific', 'honour', 'hour'. 
Otherwise it's a hammer, home, helper. 

Hamish. 

P.s. I had to learn English as a second language, because I'm Scottish.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "an hotel". That would be like saying "an herd" of cows.

A point the hosts (plural of "a" host) of AWwW make is that rules for English aren't really hard and fast rules. The language is based on how it is actually _used_, not on rules that people have tried to write to capture and confine it. Exceptions can be found for every "rule". It's always changing, to boot.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hamish- 

Also note that in French, those words the H is silent. The hotel woud sound like "low-tel" en Francais. Similar in English, but we tend to belt out the huh sound in hotel. 

So do we have a hypothosis on this, an historic MLS moment?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I see no mention yet of the rule, "I" before "E", except after "C". 

Except........???? 

I will give you just three exceptions: Heir, Their and weird. There are plenty more.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 30 Oct 2009 03:17 PM 
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "an hotel". That would be like saying "an herd" of cows.




True, but then look at this:

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexpe...el?view=uk

Similar to what Hamish pointed out and my comment on the silent H. Also explains this common rulebraker: I bought a European car/I bought an European car....

Wow, this is getting more interesting than biggie scale choo choos!


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Del,
Historic is one of the few, if not the only word I know of that starts with a consenant and always is preceeded by "an".


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I know who Emily Post was. Hooray for me







I also remember the argument about "ain't", and when Webster included it in his dictionary.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

"an LGB locomotive" sounds better to me then "a LGB locomotive" 

To me also. When you are using LGB in a sentence that will be read by others, an seems the better choice. Why? Because when the letter "L" is sounded out it is really "ELL" that is being read, written or spoken. That's one reason why I dislike acronyms.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Most of us cannot even get the English correct half of the time, let alone knowing where a word was derived from.








Which brings me to another quirk in our language. If you noticed, I wrote "cannot", because that is the way it was taught to me. Just as "awhile, alittle, and others that are not comming to mind at the momment"


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

"Wow, this is getting more interesting than biggie scale choo choos!" 

We need something to keep us occupied in the off season


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## Tom Ruddell (Jan 9, 2008)

Madman:

After being inactive here for a couple of years, I thought my first post back would have to do with trains, but what the heck... 

I still use my old newsroom copy of the Associated Press Stylebook and here's what AP says about the matter—in beer-and-pretzel English:

*a, an* Use the article _a before consonant sounds: a historic event, a one-year term (sounds as if it begins with the letter *w*), a united stand (sounds like *you*). Use the article an before vowel sounds: an energy crisis, an honorable man (the *h* is silent), an NBA record (sounds as if it begins with the letter *e*), an 1890s celebration."_

Hope that helps. 

Incidentally. after more than a month of figuring out which buttons to push on my iMac, I finally got a Bethlehem Central Railroad web site up. Please check out www.gardenrailwayministry.com to make sure I haven't committed any literary atrocities and that the video clips load and show okay. 


Best wishes and many thanks, 





Tom Ruddell
Chaplain & Chief Gandy Dancer
Bethlehem Central Railroad
Midland City (Dothan), Alabama


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, good to hear from you again! My son still watches your video every now and then.

tom h


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## Jeff Livingston (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome back Tom. Has it really been that long? I've spent the last year and a half going through old correspondence of the Oahu Railway and Land Company at the Bishop Museum here in Honolulu. I'm continually struck be the choice and usage of language and how it evolves even in business correspondence from the late 1880's through the 1970's. I don't know if there can ever be any hard and fast "rules" for what is commonly called "English". It's a moving target. If you understand the meaning of what I said then how I said it isn't all that important. I will spare all of you the "pidgin english" used in Hawaii. 

Your most humble and obedient servant,


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it is funner to use more fun but the funnest of all is the most fun 

Agghhhh... Funner and Funnest are NOT in my dictionary!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If anyone is really interested, there's an excellent history of American grammar, Kenneth Cmiel, _Democratic Eloquence._ Cmiel looks at the tension between the formalizing, standardizing impulse--establishing "correct" usage--and the more broadly democratic impulse, which says expressive and effective communication comes in many forms and formal grammar is just a bunch of arbitrary rules designed with no purpose other than to keep the poor man down. It's an excellent book, well balanced, well researched, nicely written.



The strength of English as a language has always been the fact that it's relatively poorly policed. English speakers don't usually get upset about pronunciation in the way that., say, the French do. And English is highly highly idiomatic--that is, the rules are not very strict.


There's a well known English professor who would start every freshman seminar by telling the students they had two weeks to make up their own language. The point was to make it clear that language required grammar, that it required rules or conventions for handling time, possession, multiples etc. 


His point was that there are _always_ rules, no matter how formal or informal, no matter educated or uneducated. For example, among African Americans, "he be" usually means "he habitually does:" it sometimes appears as "he always be." It does _not_ mean "he is;" traditionally, in African American dialect, "he outside" would mean "he is outside," "he be outside" would mean "he is regularly or habitually outside." "He been" means he has been doing."


These are perfectly logical expressions--they make sense, they convey meaning. There are lots of languages with lots of approaches to grammar. Chinese, for example, does not bother with verb tense. You just say "I go store yesterday." Works perfectly well.


For what it's worth, the educational system has not changed the rules. When I grade papers, I grade for formal grammar. But unlike in French, there is really no ruling authority on English practice. 



Democratic Eloquence


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## Tom Ruddell (Jan 9, 2008)

Lownote:

Thanks for sharing that!

My daughter is an interpreter for deaf children in a local high school. Your article's Chinese example is very similar to ASL (American Sign Language) as opposed to Exact Signed English which requires more wiggles of the fingers but is more effective in teaching grammar. 

And then there's that new American "dialect" called "Texting."

Tom Ruddell

Bethlehem Central Railroad
www.gardenrailwayministry.com


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Tom Ruddell on 31 Oct 2009 08:11 AM 
Lownote:

Thanks for sharing that!

My daughter is an interpreter for deaf children in a local high school. Your article's Chinese example is very similar to ASL (American Sign Language) as opposed to Exact Signed English which requires more wiggles of the fingers but is more effective in teaching grammar. 

And then there's that new American "dialect" called "Texting."

Tom Ruddell

Bethlehem Central Railroad
www.gardenrailwayministry.com 




God invented Texting to give people who are all thumbs something they can do well. 

Heaven only knows what he has instore for people with two left feet


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Perhaps I am just getting old but to me technology seems to have shifted into reverse. 

First came face to face communications then it was extended via telegraph only to be improved with telephone and the next logical step would seem to have been video phone but instead we have reversed into texting, facebook, and other written communications (at the same time losing interest in spelling and grammar in those written communications). Jay Leno recently commented on TV (I cannot remember the last time anyone actually said television) OMG WTF LOL.

All I know is that I now have arthritis in my trigger finger (really) and in another finger (carpel tunnel?) so I wonder what medical future there may be for those teenagers who now text rather than talk? If GOD wanted us to text would he have given us vocal cords?









The only reason I can see for texting and facebook is when you cannot talk to someone (such as students in class who should be listening to the teacher (perhaps in English class) or who don't want to talk to someone in person. Its kind of like Christmas letters having moved into the electronic world.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would type on a telephone.









Then again here I am writing on an Internet Forum so maybe I'm no different and just prefer talking PC rather than iPod or whatever.

Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It is called "entropy", Jerry. EVERYTHING runs down to uselessness... Energy, Morality, Communications, Decency, Language... you name it; it runs down to the lowest level possible, and then proves that we had no idea how much lower it could go. BTW: many of us believe that the first of your three 3-letter examples is blasphemous, and the second one is obscene... regardless of the attempt to shroud the meaning to just an acronym of the first letter of the words they represent, and as such, I personally would not even use them as examples.

As for texting on a device where one could speak their intent much more clearly and succinctly; that is just one more example of entropy... the cell phone companies charge more for texting, yet it costs them less when you do. Why do I say that is an example of "entropy"? Well... it seems intellegence is also afffected by entropy.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06 Nov 2009 09:52 AM 
I personally would not even use them as examples.




Perhaps that is representative of the situation. While I would not have expressed those words in a regular conversation it did not even cross my mind that by typing those acronyms I was in effect repeating the words the acronyms stand for. A year ago I would not have understood what any of them represented and my wife only recognized LOL. Even people who would never consider using the words have become familiar with what they represent and perhaps the acronyms enable teenagers to express words that their parents would not accept in conversation.

We have come a long way from acronyms like IBM, ATSF, UPS, AT&T and USA. 

The funny thing is that the spell checker did not recognize texting, Facebook or any of the acronyms other than IBM, ATSF, UPS, AT&T and USA. 

Isn't technology wonderful?d

Jerry

ps I just remembered what the 2nd "T" in AT&T represents. We have come a long way.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

When I saw this topic, I was going to note that I had a good and proper Grammar. She served in World War I, raised four kids by herself during the Great Depression, and never drank whiskey straight from the bottle. But maybe that's not what this is about? (?An bout?) 

Lost between the article and the participles, Mike


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## Tom Ruddell (Jan 9, 2008)

Forgive me, guys, if I appear to be picking flyspecks off the coal train, but... 

IBM, ATSF, AT&T are abbreviations and UPS and USA are acroynms, the test of an acronym being that it's a readily pronounceable word formed of the first letters of other words. Great military acronyms include SNAFU and, worse than that, FUBAR, both of which acronyms come in a barracks version and a version that might be marginally whisperable when translated at a garden party held by the general's wife. 

 In serving as a staff officer on a military panel assessing an awards and decorations program, I made up some new acronyms to describe honors at or near the bottom of the pecking order: AFSA (Awarded for Showing Up), AFSA (Awarded for Sticking Around), and AFGA (Awarded for Going Away). 

Years later, I created what's arguably one of the world's worst acronyms. While serving as vice president of association growth for a professional association, we called a conference to be held in the posh (another acronym) conference facilities at the corporate offices of a famous brewing company headquartered in St. Louis. The name of the conference? COAGULATE: Conference on Association Grow Under Lofty Auspices Totally Enjoyable. Ugh. 

I studied acronymology under my grammar who died of entropy. 

Tom Ruddell 
The Bethlehem Central Railroad 
www.gardenrailwayministry.com


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

SNAFU and FUBAR have got to be two of the best acronyms ever concieved... 

Please correct my history if I'm wrong, but didn't SANFU come out of WWII and FUBAR out of VietNam?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 06 Nov 2009 11:22 AM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06 Nov 2009 09:52 AM 
I personally would not even use them as examples.




Perhaps that is representative of the situation. While I would not have expressed those words in a regular conversation it did not even cross my mind that by typing those acronyms I was in effect repeating the words the acronyms stand for. A year ago I would not have understood what any of them represented and my wife only recognized LOL. Even people who would never consider using the words have become familiar with what they represent and perhaps the acronyms enable teenagers to express words that their parents would not accept in conversation.




Where da ya think words like "Gosh", "Gee Wizz" and "Goll Daing it!" come from? I picture a small boy that just last week heard Daddy and his friends chatting down at the barbershop, and is now standing right next to Momma just outside the church door and he sees something that he finds it necessary to comment on and starts to use a word that Daddy used, but then realizes that he is within striking distance of the back of Momma's hand and so "slurs" the word into something less likely to incite that hand into corrective action!

Of course, words are just sounds (or collections of letters in the written realm) that only convey meaning to the listener (reader) based on what the listener (reader) understands the words to mean (regardless of what the speaker (writer) intended!).

Lewis Carroll's "Alice, Through the Looking Glass" has a great understanding of this in Alice's conversation with Humpty Dumpty in Chapter VI... to wit:

---------------------------------------------------

`And only ONE for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said. 

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't --till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

---------------------------------------------------

"Alice, Through the Looking Glass" is a great read. It is available free on the internet at Project Guttenburg at:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wo...les=785821


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Just so you know, I am not offended by your examples. Those are extremely common examples and I know your intent is not to insult anyone. 

My favorite was the 4th grade teacher who would respond to our question of "Can I go to the bathroom?" with "I don't know. _Can _you?". Smart ass teacher was looking for us to ask "May I go..." 

Lauguage is fun. 

Tom Ruddle: You must have heard me mention your name and the Bethlehem Central. There was a discussion about USA streamliners and tight curves. I mentioned the FUN you had sorting out some reverse curves.


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## Tom Ruddell (Jan 9, 2008)

Nancy and I both grew up with the same parental sarcasm regarding the difference between "can" and "may." So, since the semantics of the parents (not to mention the syntaxes) will carry down to the third and fourth generations, we heaped said sarcasm on our son and daughter. And now what a joy it is to hear them heap the same wry responses upon our grandchildren. 

Yeah, Mark, that was some "fun" after those USA passenger cars wrenched one another over onto their sides the first time I attempted to run them over a Regular Wide Aristo crossover. It cost almost as much to rebuild parts of the railroad with #6 turnouts and buy a Magnum25-TDR to accommodate the power hogs that pull them than it did to buy those five passenger cars! That said, that PA-PB & fivesome still runs like a champ and the required trackwork resulted in smoother operations. 

Best wishes, 

Tom Ruddell 
Bethlehem Central Railroad 
www.gardenrailwayministry.com


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

I served in WWII and knew about SNAFU. While in school in '52, I learned that there were comparative and superlative forms, like good, gooder and goodest (I know: good - better - best): SNAFU, TARFU, and FUBAR.

Kilroy predates them all.

Art


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When I was in the Air Force Guys comming back from Viet Nam had the letters K.M.C.Y.O.Y.O. on the underside of thier hat. Which I thought was funny


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