# Has anyone ever attempted to make a Ruby superheated?



## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I have a question, as the topic implies. I don't think I have ever seen anyone ask this on MLS before. I recently sold my Ruby due to performance issues. It ran fine, timing was great but the engine just didn't run long enough and didn't have enough power to carry cars around the steep grades on my layout. I had traded my Ruby in for a Roundhouse Sammie and after running the Sammie I came to this conclusion. The Sammy has bigger cylinders at 9/16ths vs 1/2 on my old Ruby I sold but the Sammie is super heated and the Ruby is not. I was wondering here if anyone has ever attempted to re route the steam pipe down the center flue of a Ruby boiler. If you cut off the soldered on smoke box it should theoretically be possible to re route the existing steam line without cutting it, simply bending it upward, so it can make it down the flue and then drill a slot for the steam pipe to pass through on the burner plate. I think it would help a lot and make the engine run a lot smoother. This would involve making a replacement smoke box but it might be worth it for the extra performance. Curious if anyone here tried it.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 21 Jun 2012 02:19 PM 
I have a question, as the topic implies. I don't think I have ever seen anyone ask this on MLS before. I recently sold my Ruby due to performance issues. It ran fine, timing was great but the engine just didn't run long enough and didn't have enough power to carry cars around the steep grades on my layout. I had traded my Ruby in for a Roundhouse Sammie and after running the Sammie I came to this conclusion. The Sammy has bigger cylinders at 9/16ths vs 1/2 on my old Ruby I sold but the Sammie is super heated and the Ruby is not. I was wondering here if anyone has ever attempted to re route the steam pipe down the center flue of a Ruby boiler. If you cut off the soldered on smoke box it should theoretically be possible to re route the existing steam line without cutting it, simply bending it upward, so it can make it down the flue and then drill a slot for the steam pipe to pass through on the burner plate. I think it would help a lot and make the engine run a lot smoother. This would involve making a replacement smoke box but it might be worth it for the extra performance. Curious if anyone here tried it. 
Steve
You identified the problem as being "did not run long enough and didn't have enough power to carry cars...the steep grades on my layout." Not sure that placing a superheater tube in the configuration will solve this problem. Secondly, must be careful of the setup of oil input relative to steam line as to "cooking" the oil in the route through the boiler (as per C16 if I recall correctly). Keep us posted on your experiment, do not know of anyone who has done it.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh I don't have a Ruby to do it with I'm thinking maybe a few months out if I find a kit or used one cheap enough. I'm not even sure if I will but superheated engines do seem to run better when compared to non-superheated from what I've found. I heard of super heaters cooking oil but I never experienced it myself.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By StevenJ on 21 Jun 2012 03:45 PM 
but superheated engines do seem to run better when compared to non-superheated from what I've found.
Do they?
Not that I'm saying they don't, but I don't think that I have ever seen identical locos, one with and one without superheat, tested to see what the difference really is.
I am sure that the steam is 'dried' somewhat, but whether there is an appreciable increase in pressure and/or performance, I am not too sure.
Anyone got any concrete facts out there?
I have always felt that when the throttle is closed, you are now heating up this superheater pipe red hot, and then when you open the throttle letting 'cooler' steam rush through causing the tubing to all sorts of expansion and contraction.
Therefor they need to be made with the correct materials.
Certainly it is preferable to have your lubricator AFTER the superheater. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

you are now heating up this superheater pipe red hot, and then when you open the throttle letting 'cooler' steam rush through causing the tubing to all sorts of expansion and contraction 
I'd be interested in the results of a test, too. 

Having owned a C-16 for many years, I can report it never had a superheater pipe problem, nor did it get clogged with steam oil residue.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

In the "real world" of steam locomotion superheated steam decreases the steam consumption per horsepower hour which results in reserve boiler capacity. The use of high degree of superheat in locomotives produces economies from 25 to 35 per cent in fuel and 35 to 40 per in water for the same output of power. The hauling capacity of the locomotive is increased 33 percent. But none of this wold be an advantage on track with large elevations.
David
The nearest experience with saturated and super heat steam of identical locomotives running at the same under the same conditions that we had was with the AC-11. One engine was running saturated (due to bad superheater pipe) and the other superheated. Though not fully independent there was quite a noticeable difference between the performance of the two engines on the Cab forward. Without doubt the superheated engine was outperforming the saturated engine (kinda of just for the ride).

Bottom line is I doubt that a short run superheater tube in the Ruby would make a difference with the given grades of the track layout.

C-16- I stand corrected. C-21 was the engine I was trying to think of.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not know how many cars you are talking about pulling and what type of grade you have but I have a 2% grade and pull 4 cars and a caboose with no problems even without the newer cylinders. These cars are all 4 wheel with metal wheels and not overly heavy. The ruby runs like a champ and I built it from a kit plus added R/C to it. Later RJD


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## docstoy (May 15, 2009)

A friend who builds and repairs live steam 1/2"-1 1/2" scale says that superheating in the very small sizes is not as effective as it is in larger engines. The use of a superheater does not increase the pressure of the steam, if that were true it would go back into the boiler as easily as going to the cylinder. But by increasing the temperature of the steam after leaving the boiler additional latent energy is added. This can make a difference as the steam tends to cool naturally as it leaves the boiler. By heating it well above it's vapor point (212 at sea level) it is prevented from condensing before having done it's expansion in the cylinder. If you think of an aerosol can of paint, the analogy is similar. As the paint is expressed from the can it cools. The reduction of pressure and concurrent expansion of the gas cools it. This is the principal underlying air conditioning and refrigeration. By hiking the temperature of the steam well above the vapor point it can travel down the lines through the valve chest and then into the cylinder. Hopefully it will still be above 212 when it leaves the exhaust port. 

Another consideration is the burner itself. Engines which are designed with superheaters have larger flues or more flues to insure adequate room for the flame. In a small flue which is filled with flame the addition of a pipe to accommodate the steam might very well crowd the flame or create turbulance which adversely affects the burner proformance.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I think that in theory it would seem an easy enough conversion, however the devil is in the details. I think that feeding the standard copper steam line though the flue from back to front should be easy enough, but fitting the burner in too may be too tight. Even if doable, I am not sure that copper would be up to the task, Roundhouse uses Stainless tubing and that is what I used on my scratch built Forney. 

I think it would help the performance a little, I cannot say if it would be worth the trouble though.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

Yes, in 1996-7 when they first came on the market. Charlie Mienher did one at the same time. It is more of a "superwarmer", but it did/does make a positive difference in duration and sound. I overcame the hot spot by splicing in an 1 1/2" long section of stainless steel machine screw [3/16" dia. as I remember] that was c-bore step drilled and through. Knowing Charlie I'd bet he used SS for the whole run. First Ruby [configured as a Forney with an inertia drive in the bunker] is still active, and visited Diamondhead as late as DH-09.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I guess this is all in retrospect now that I sold the engine. I have about 3 1/2% to 4% grade going up a 4ft radius curve and it couldn't pull one gondola without stopping. The engine was timed, it ran fine backwards and forwards on my air compressor. I was hoping that the steam tube being super heated might keep the pressure up in the line giving it a tad more umph and I like how easy it is to customize a Ruby. The Sammie is wonderful but doesn't lend it self to kitbashing anywhere near as much as the Ruby does.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I had a thought ... Rather than running the steam line through the flue, you could run an extended steam pipe into the smokebox and loop around a few times. there is plenty of heat in those smokeboxes but not so much as to melt copper. I would think you could get a good super heat there with a couple of loops and it would be pretty easy to do.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the biggest advantage of superheating would be better slow speed performance due to reduced condensation. 
Regards


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

I wouldn't call Charlie M's locomotive anything CLOSE to a Ruby! I know Accucraft advertises certain metals that their locomotives are made of BUT Charlie's is made almost ENTIRELY of stanless. And talk about slow speed operation!

I believe Bill from Houston area owns the locomotive now.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Not ME obviously I am.

There seemed to be a question in all this, What difference would it make adding a super warmer pipe in a Ruby. Well I decided to ask Tom Terrific and his Mighty Manfred the Wonder Dog to lend a hand solving this predicament. Tom says, "why sure I'll help Mr Steamer." Tom puts on his thinking cap, which looks surprisingly like a funnel, and starts to work;

Let's see...
Ruby boiler is 1 5/8" OD;


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

Har Har Chris S very very funny. Two Blocked I can't believe I missed your post at the time I last replied. Do you have any video or pictures of your Carlie's Ruby by chance? I'd be curious to see it. Did he do what Eric suggested a few posts ago to just run the steam pipe up into the smoke box and then back down to the block? That sounds interesting.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

An application of a superheater to a locomotive could increase horsepower capacity from 15 per cent at low speed up to 45 per cent at higher speeds. The increase in efficiency is progressive and in proportion to amount of super heat. The key to the previous statement is 1:1 locomotive results but a stock Ruby would be hard pressed to obtain significant benefit from a superheater setup.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

It is elemental to eliminate the destruction of a segment of a copper-super warmer, caused by exposure to the naked flame of the operational length [the total length of a standard poker burner "goes along for the ride"] by placing it 180 degrees around from the combustion side of the poker, but it obviates the intent of placing the gas path [yes, steam does mimic the physical properties of some of the gas laws] smack dab in the "hot spot" where the greatest amount of naked heat transfer is possible; it blunts the first intent. 
When I installed the "First Ruby's" super warmer [in the way-back times] I also coiled the superwarmer tubing up for six or eight times *in-the-flue * and tested it against a later version without the coils in the flue. Both approaches yielded equal results [mo-betta-than-stock], and so every super-warmer that I have added to a model since has been of the direct flame impingement type on the super-warmer pipe/tube itself; sans flue coils. I never coiled a superwarmer array inside a smokebox, but the idea has some merit in over-fired Accucraft locomotives where smokebox external temperatures run in the 800F to 900F range. Some Accucraft locomotives have internal insulation in their smokeboxes, and stainless steel heat shields on their smokebox doors to counter their caca poker burners, but why not take advantage of their inattention to model engineering? 
I recently partially groomed three Accucraft, non super-warmed locomotives, a two cylinder Shay, a Forney, and a Plantation outline. All three are low pressure "water-powered" locomotives. The latter two locomotives would mightily gain performance, and sound less like the grill at Waffle House, by adding a thru-the-flue super-warmer. I may arrange that to happen. 
The Shay defies this particular solution, so I devised an exhaust system that vents the condensate from the water powered engines prior to the heat of the smokebox [drains on the track], and ends the WH sound effects! Chuck San Fillipo has the original unit and the second is on the way to Harry Gray. 
I quieted the Forney by "witness marking" the front of the tightened exhaust tube [in the valve block], and upon removal, I sawed a .030" slot in the brass base of the exhaust tube that pointed toward the smokebox door. The saw cut barely cut through the brass of the tube assembly, and so now all that excess effluent from the water powered engines vents forward and down and out of the smokebox before it can sizzle and pop. 
Oh, I forgot to mention that the Shay now has stack talk! Not a lot, but the slurred Shay beats are there when they are not drowned out by the sound of the gear trains, axle noise, and wheel click.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

That's neat Two Blocked. I'd love to see some pictures of those super heated conversion you have done! Sounds really neat.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Two Blocked 
I am surprised your copper super-warmer tubes hold up. I would invision one empty of water and steam during startup being heated to the melting point but I guess the proof is in the pudding. 
Just the same, I think I will stick to SS, besides being a higher melting point, it will get red hot and heat the steam without transmitting all of that heat back to the throttle valve. 
Your idea on the exhaust drain sounds great. On the .030 slot which barlely goes through the tube what would you say the length of the slot is on the inside of the tube?


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

This is a 1998 happy-snap of "First Ruby" as a Forney running on my home pike. Things to notice [not in red] are the Roscoe dead-leg steam oil tank on the running board, the automatic steam cylinder condensate drains, and the piston rod crosshead and crosshead guide. The Ross type pop safety valve is hidden by the steam dome, while the bunker hides the belt driven gear wheels and inertia engine disk.

If you rotate this view of the Ruby's smokebox to the right and look behind the chuff pipe, you will see the superwarmer emerging from the bottom of the flu and goose-necking down to the steam block. Look closely and you will see the transition from stainless tube to copper. 










Next is the backhead which shows how the superwarmer snakes its way into the flue under the poker burner. All my Unit Shop poker burners burn pointing down toward the bottom of the flue. I developed the first successful butane fired poker burners for the first 50 Ruby units, and they have continued this down-firing technique ever since. Thus the full force of the gasses of combustion fall fully and violently on the SS porition of the superwarmer.



















The footplate view shows the rest of the steam plumbing.










Last is a Ruby sized radiant burner with a nichrome emitter, and a SS mesh burner top inside the poker. I don't remember just what type poker I used in First Ruby, but it is both silent and powerful and I didn't want to disassemble it to check.

Roundhouse uses copper tubing in their superwarming schemes of things. The next photo is of the superwarmer out of my Billy, a couple a five years back.










I misspoke the other week when I said that I had replaced part of First Ruby's superwarmer with a 1 1/2" section of SS machine screw. 'Turns out that the fix described referred to the Billy, and I was not quick enough to pixelate the event for posterity.

Change of subject! On to the gargley Accucraft Shays.










There are three big pieces to the gargle fix. The dark threaded component is a hardened tool steel, screw in, drill bushing. The "hat pin" is the regulator valve that slides down into the "chin" of the condensate/exhaust pipe that the the drill bushing allows one to drill down and through the bend in the exhaust pipe. And the big piece? That is the replacement chimney pipe/chuffer do.










One can see the pipe going up and the pin going down in this view. The pipe is 4 1/2" long. In operation the tiny clearance between the pin and the hole in the exhaust pipe allows the condensate out of the pipe, and it follows the pin down to the roadbase. The waste steam is too tired to follow, and so it weakly re-heats on the way up to the chuffer to please our digitally enhanced ears.

Someone asked about the saw-cut method of excess condensate at the threaded brass base of the stock stack tube. A Zonna saw is good, as is a 32 tooth hacksaw blade [old one] that has been squeezed in a vice to remove the kerf. Go easy and just brake through to the inside diameter; de
bur it with a #11 blade.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

In my haste to post the former, [I was down to 10% power] I forgot to add this photo of my current superwarmer project.










I am shopping Mike O'Rourke's first hand built [by him] live steam locomotive, "Lonesome Dove". It is basic Mamod technology that featured a Mike Chaney alcohol fueled burner. When the loco came to me about ten years ago, I replaced the Chaney burner with a butane fired, ceramic radiant, burner made by that chap who also built marine engines and much later locos as well. Lonesome Dove has trundled on without any unhappy events for all these years, but a a steamup at Richard Heistler's track in Stockton last week she sprung a leak in her "Bendix" type sight glass [think Frank S.] and disassembly was required.

Since I had to get to the point pictured to remove the old glass [think clear plastic], I decided to upgrade the unit to carry a SS segment in the superwarmer where it passes right over the burning, emitting, ceramic burner; notice the silver tube. Just above it is a Unit Shop gas attenuating valve reconfigured for steam throttle service. Mike used the standard Mamod speed/direction control valve which only does the latter well and the former very poorly. The original valve will remain in directional , but the Unit Shop valve will take over the speed selection.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

That's an incredible Ruby Two Blocked! Can you solder stainless steel with a propane torch? Some interesting things you go there with that Forney. That's one **** of an engine!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Two Blocked 
I am interested in your automatic cylinder drains. Do you have a sketch of them?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

About 8 years ago, I installed a superheater in an early Ruby with 3/8 cylinders. I used SS tubing through the flue. It can pull 4 Bachmann coaches up a 3 1/2 % grade on a 5 foot radius. I have not had any problem with burnt oil cloging the tube. I didn't put RC in it until after installing the superheater so couldn't run the grades, therefor I'm not sure if the superheater really helped. I certainly hasn't hurt. I would put some pictures in but my 1st class expired and I was not notified so all my pictures are gone. Kind of makes me reluctant to renew!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By placitassteam on 28 Jun 2012 05:00 PM 
{snip...}[/i] I would put some pictures in but my 1st class expired and I was not notified so all my pictures are gone. Kind of makes me reluctant to renew! {snip...}[/i] Winn

Your MLS 1st Class space and pictures are still intact.


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