# Why No Dreyfuss Hudson in 1/32nd Scale?



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The subject of the streamlined (Henry Dreyfuss) NYC J3a Hudson came up recently, and I recall, when Accucraft tried to market their 1/29th version, they were roundly criticized for not doing it in 1/32nd. I thought they said they eventually would introduce one in 1/32nd.

As far as I can see it has never been produced as a gauge-1 1/32nd model. Someone did the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt - I recall seeing one many moons ago. Aster did the J1c way back in the dark ages.

As the smooth-side passenger cars in NYC grey are still available from Accucraft as a complete 6-car set, it seems natural that there would be the "right" locomotive to pull them?

Somewhere in the 24 page thread started in 2013 about the 1/29th Hudson there's a reference to the proposed build list for 1/32nd locos. The 7th one is the N&W J611, and after that is listed the PRR M1. Wouldn't a Dreyfuss streamlined Hudson sell better than a PRR M1 ?

Or is it something to do with the fact that there is a PRR M1 still extant (PRR Museum) so it can be measured?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete,

In 1/32, Fine Art Models did a Dreyfus J3a Hudson in electric. Aster produced the Commodore Vanderbilt around the electric J1e that they produced alongside the J1c. 

Original plans are readily available for any of the NYC Hudson designs from the NYC historical society. 

Since it does indeed make sense to produce; perhaps a registration of interest to the appropriate channels will see it appear on the production docket? 


As a point of progress; I would be quite leery of basing what's next off a nearly 10 year old proposed build list. 

Lastly...Money talks!


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

For those who like models of streamlined locomotives (including NYC Hudsons). I just finished compiling a book on that subject (but not only 1:32 versions). It can de read and/or downloaded for free: http://sncf231e.nl/steamliners/
Regards
Fred


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Fred
Thankyou for sharing your excellent collection.


Harvey C.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Awesome book
Thanks for sharing


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Fred,

Excellent book and chronicle of the various scales and productions of the worlds streamlined locomotives. 

As an aside; If you ever would like to update it, I have a few more Gauge 1 locomotives of the types you are featuring and would gladly share photos and documentation on the productions.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

fredlub said:


> For those who like models of streamlined locomotives (including NYC Hudsons). I just finished compiling a book on that subject (but not only 1:32 versions). It can de read and/or downloaded for free: http://sncf231e.nl/steamliners/
> Regards
> Fred


What a great collection - I especially like the tinplate models - very evocative of what toys were once like and how they tried to capture the spirit of the times during which they were built.

I wish Aster had produced more streamliner models but my sense was that Hans in the USA was not a fan and preferred the big, brutal, everything on the outside prototypes. Similarly for Andrew in the UK. Maybe the thought was that the complexity of building a model with a lot of visible parts was more attractive to the buyer than having everything hidden under the casing. 

I did finally get a Coronation Scot in 1:32 and also had Sunset Valley make me LMS streamlined coaches based on the set that went for exhibition in the USA. I also have Mallard/Silver Link with a set of streamlines LNER coaches so I am all set for a race to the north.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hans did like regular mainline steam locomotives. But one thing he always had to keep in mind was that whatever he picked, he was going to have to buy from Aster and resell over 100 kits & factory-builts and to do that he had to pick models of locos that appealed the world over and not just in the USA. That “minor issue” alone would kill locomotives like the Dreyfus. Accucraft seems to be able to produce smaller profitable runs than Aster ever did, but Bing too is cautious in his selection of prototypes. Note that recently he has restricted his operation to producing models that can be sold out quickly - avoiding many of the past shelf queens like the Royal Hudson which took forever to sell out. Nevertheless, he still can have slow moving inventory like the J - a loco I love and own. Currently he still has at least 14 on hand both electric and steam.

Ross Schlabach


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> That “minor issue” alone would kill locomotives like the Dreyfus. Accucraft seems to be able to produce smaller profitable runs than Aster ever did, but Bing too is cautious in his selection of prototypes.


I don't buy that the rest of the world doesn't like US prototypes. The streamlined Dreyfus Hudson even turned up as a visiting Thomas engine!
No doubt Bing is cautious these days, but he's running out of exciting prototypes.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I just finished compiling a book on that subject


A great book Fred.


Last Christmas I received the other book: "Streamliners - Locomotives and Trains in the Age of Speed and Style." by Brian Solomon. It covers the prototypes and a lot of the background.0(It eEven has construction drawings of the McKeen railcar.)


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete, you obviously didn’t read or understand what I wrote. Hans was careful to pick US prototypes that would also appeal to the world market. The Berkshire, Challenger and 844 are good examples of locos with overseas appeal. Now, back to the Dreyfus. If Bing didn't feel the market (US & overseas) was adequate for the Dreyfus in 1:29 or 1:32 then it should be clear that a more expensive Aster model wouldn’t do any better.

As for Bing running out of exciting prototypes, I can think of a number of well-known locomotives that would likely sell much better than a Dreyfus: Southern Ps4, N&W A or Y articulated, RF&P Governor. And those are just a few from my part of the country. Other modelers can likely have a good list of their own of well known locomotives. Oh and I haven’t even mentioned that none of the Sante Fe locos were ever done. So there is a wide choice of better prototypes out there to be modeled - no way Bing is running out of choices. And don't get me started on narrow gauge!!

Ross Schlabach


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Fred;

Thanks for the link to your book. I remember playing with a Marx bullet nosed floor toy locomotive as a child. It was a friction drive and had an emory wheel/lighter flint device that shot sparks out the smokestack. Also had a Hafner clockwork set featuring a shovel nosed locomotive.

Best, David Meashey


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

Thank you all for the kind words about my book



rbednarik said:


> As an aside; If you ever would like to update it, I have a few more Gauge 1 locomotives of the types you are featuring and would gladly share photos and documentation on the productions.


My books are sort of catalogue of my collection. But of course I, and many others on the forum I assume, would like to see pictures of these locomotives on the forum.
Regards
Fred


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

RP3 said:


> Pete, you obviously didn’t read or understand what I wrote. Hans was careful to pick US prototypes that would also appeal to the world market. The Berkshire, Challenger and 844 are good examples of locos with overseas appeal. Now, back to the Dreyfus. If Bing didn't feel the market (US & overseas) was adequate for the Dreyfus in 1:29 or 1:32 then it should be clear that a more expensive Aster model wouldn’t do any better.
> 
> As for Bing running out of exciting prototypes, I can think of a number of well-known locomotives that would likely sell much better than a Dreyfus: Southern Ps4, N&W A or Y articulated, RF&P Governor. And those are just a few from my part of the country. Other modelers can likely have a good list of their own of well known locomotives. Oh and I haven’t even mentioned that none of the Sante Fe locos were ever done. So there is a wide choice of better prototypes out there to be modeled - no way Bing is running out of choices. And don't get me started on narrow gauge!!
> 
> Ross Schlabach


 Ross, of course I read it and understood it - as your opinion, which I happen to disagree with. We can all agree to disagree, right?

I see no reason why 844 has more overseas appeal than a streamlined hudson. Could you explain? 
Most of the locos you mention have, in my opinion, limited local appeal: a Southern Ps4 would be unknown outside the SE and it looks superficially like a PRR K4. There's a lot of pacifics out there, and lots of nice black engines with lots of details and piping, but very few streamliners.

But I'm just an ex-pat Brit, so what do I know.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The Southern PS4 resides in the Smithsonion museum. Its appeal is nearly world wide along with that color scheme being inspired by British railway practices in the days of steam. It would make an excellent next USA engine for Aster to model. Since the new Aster has shown they will reissue past models, I would love to see a Schools with a different name, such as Repton or one of the other ones that survived into preservation. But do it up to todays standards with 3 cylinders, tender and axle pumps and so forth. A Dreyfus would be neat to see, but I agree on limited appeal, years ago when more folks were alive that remembered them along with the PRR K4 and NYC J class non streamlined hudsons, the demand would have been great. If you have enough folks that want that model Pete, have them shoot Accucraft/Aster an email. The more folks that pony up they would put their money where their mouth is, the greater chance Accucraft/Aster will take serious look at making the model.


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

My two cents' worth, apologies for restating the glaringly obvious:

Streamlined steam locomotives are not to everyone's taste, I think we can all agree on that. We can also agree that no business likes to be stuck with unsold stock. I don't envy the importer that has to make a calculated guess as to what's going to sell, commission 30 or 50 or 100 of whatever it is and come up with the up-front tooling costs, and hope that they've made a good decision. I just don't think that a model with limited appeal is going to get made.

(While I'm on the soapbox: I also don't think that polls or the perennial wish lists that appear on live steam forums are of much use. Seems to be too many examples of people enthusiastically wanting a certain prototype to be produced and then never following up with a purchase. As Mr Toney said in the previous post, put yer money where yer mouth is.)

More recent example than the Dreyfus: Bowande (I think) ran a pilot model of the C&O No. 490 at Diamondhead some time back, nothing came of it. 

Last, but not least, the Accucraft SP P-8. Handsome engine, the pilot model that appeared an age ago at the NSS looked to be a good runner. Still not enough orders, I'd guess, for full production. And that's for a non-streamlined loco of very typical North American proportions.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I remember seeing pics in STiG of that C&O Yellowbelly hudson that never came to production, looked beautiful but its a unique enough prototype with a very short life span that most do not remember exhisted. Casey Jones's ten wheeler is known world wide so it did well. I suspect most things logging do well. I would love to see Accucraft upgrade the Shays to Stephenson valve gear instead of simplified and a reversing valve. But I doubt that will even happen. Looking at the "grey hair" quantity at steam ups, I suspect the market may very well be shrinking a wee bit over the "hey day" of cheaper Accucraft models. Even Aster had to merge to survive as costs for a model made solely in Japan became out of hand. Same thing happened to the smaller scale brass train industry, moved from Japan to South Korea in the late 70's, and now with the detail of plastic nearly equil to brass, that industry has really shrunk in recent years. Most new stuff from Aster or Accucraft is either not what I want or in the case of most UK models, need radius larger than what I have at home or the portable layout we use at shows. My Pannier, is just perfect. Maybe the next model to hunt down will be a Bowande 14xx auto tank... in spring 2021. I do think these companies do look at these "wish list" threads as it does give a rough idea of what folks would like to see. Then its up to the importers to reach out to their buyers of past models and find out how many will put the money where the mouth is and order one. I think Hans did a great job all those years for Aster, as those runs sold out, even the ubber high doller C&O 2-6-6-6 articulated. Mike


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Streamlined steam locomotives are not to everyone's taste, I think we can all agree on that.


I was pondering that issue, as it was strongly suggested by Ross. I am a fan of Art Deco and similar styles, so a Dreyfuss Hudson looks marvelous to me, especially with a train of streamlined coaches (even if the liveries are of different years!)












> ran a pilot model of the C&O No. 490 at Diamondhead


My understanding is that someone put up the $$ for the pilot model, and you can still order one, although Bob Clark, the US Dealer, seems unwilling to offer them (or a Dreyfuss Hudson - I asked):
http://bowandeusa.isitecenter.cn/page112?product_id=95
WuHu/Bowande seem quite willing to quote and build pilot models as long as you pay for one. I had an acceptable quote for the EBT M-1 gas-electric railcar some years ago. We almost ordered some!


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

I didn't want to imply that I dislike streamlined steam locomotives. Not at all; I've been a fan of the New Haven I-5 for many years and appreciate the Dreyfuss Hudson and the PRR semi-streamliners, among others. I personally wouldn't be interested in buying a model of one, however.

Likewise, I don't begrudge people who set up online polls or wish list threads on this or other forums. But there's a risk here -- witness the Kerr-Stuart "Wren", which was at or near the top of a poll on the Seven-Eighths forum. Accucraft UK got them to market quickly, and did a good job, too (I bought one, and didn't even vote for it. It's a great little model). But there are still two dozen of 'em sitting in Union City, plus some number unsold in AC UK's warehouse. Hence the gripe about voting for something you assume the other guy's going to buy.

End of rant.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Joel, you hit the nail on the head - what I was trying to get across. Most people don’t really have any idea how well a particular model will sell - even Aster and Accucraft. The Dreyfus may melt Pete’s butter but would it appeal to another 124 people? Looking at Aster prices at the time, if Hans committed to a model of the Dreyfus from Aster, he could have had to come up with something North of $650,000 before the first kit sold. Pete, would you be willing to take that gamble?

A final note. Art Deco was short-lived and feelings about it were strong. I’ve heard it said that people either loved it or hated it. The Dreyfus Hudson raises those same strong feelings. The C&O 490 is another that falls into the same category. I love the C&O but think 490 was a dreadful looking beast. I saw it firsthand at DH. Bowande wanted an Aster-sized price for it. It was so poorly sprung, that when they put it on the track, it bottomed out and wouldn't move. I’ve since seen the YouTube video of it running at someone’s home in Europe so they got it to work. Never did see it pull anything!

Ross Schlabach


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

I seem to recall you mentioning the EBT M1. Too bad would have signed up.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

If you need a Dreyfuss Hudson to run in your garden just add an extra rail to your track like I did:




Regards
Fred


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

RP3 said:


> The C&O 490 is another that falls into the same category. I love the C&O but think 490 was a dreadful looking beast. I saw it firsthand at DH. Bowande wanted an Aster-sized price for it. It was so poorly sprung, that when they put it on the track, it bottomed out and wouldn't move. I’ve since seen the YouTube video of it running at someone’s home in Europe so they got it to work. Never did see it pull anything!
> 
> Ross Schlabach



The sample is still in Bowande's hands. while they would turn on the production, there is a lot of work to be done to the model first. then is there enough interest to actually make a run possible. I also told them at the time they needed to sell coaches WITH the model. If they just made the loco, their sales would not be as good.


this said, Bowande put up the money on the model under Bobs direction, as there was never interest or demand it was a bust. it also turned them off to making more under his direction unless he fronted all the development. This is from Bowande. 



As to the model, they asked me a while back and recently I queried it again, they would get it in action and move on it. I need to come up with 30 orders min. Real question is what price being today the costs are more and would 30 people buy a full train? And for the asking price then it was a very basic chassis. And of course all the stainless was painted silver.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> if Hans committed to a model of the Dreyfus from Aster, he could have had to come up with something North of $650,000 before the first kit sold. Pete, would you be willing to take that gamble?


Ross, I was going to let the thread die, but your somewhat outrageous claim had to be answered. Where on earth did you get $650,000 from? 100 kits at $6,500 MSRP each? 

If I were a dealer, then I might expect to have to do what a car dealer does - borrow enough money to buy 100 units at cost+ (cost+, not retail,) and then pay back the loan as the items were sold. But I am not a dealer.

There are a few companies and individuals still in business who would be happy to make me a Dreyfuss Hudson or 2 for $20,000 to $50,000. As Jason remarks, WuHu/Bowande only wants an order for 30 units to make it worthwhile. That's a lot less $ than 6 figures!


My purpose in starting the thread was to remind everyone that the iconic Dreyfuss Hudson is still an unavailable model. Clearly not enough people want one to express any positive comments.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete,

Not to lift lids off cans of worms, but Ross' figure is far from fiction. The fiduciary realities of commissioning a model are staggering and the stakes vs (a not very good) ROI can be very high indeed. Add in the stakes of production and delays/costs that are not able to be controlled in house...that 6 figure number gets realized very quickly! 

Remember that usually someone who imports (any product, not just trains) have to take a certain FOB cost per an allocated number of units. This is what makes an Importer (distributor) different to the dealer (retailer). 

Fantastical ideas of a model "you want" are good on paper. However those fantasies only materialize if that paper has a sum of sizeable numbers and a signature that guarantees investment capital. Plus, you must have a dedicated individual to manage the project to provide the highest fidelity and quality assurance to keep the customer base satisfied for the target price point. 

It's not that the Dreyfus is an unpopular model...just that the ducks really need to be in a row to pull the trigger. Even through Bowande or another source, a loaded model won't be just pocket change and at 30 units...I would wager the FOB/unit is high if the commissioner wishes to actually get some ROI and not just break even.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> . Since the new Aster has shown they will reissue past models, I would love to see a Schools with a different name, such as Repton or one of the other ones that survived into preservation. But do it up to today's standards with 3 cylinders, tender and axle pumps and so forth.


The key phrase here is re-issue - I don't think there is any chance that Aster/Accucraft would re-engineer the Schools or even re-issue the slip eccentric, two cylinder version as I suspect the engineering drawings are long gone. 

I agree with others that Hans and Andrew in the UK did a great job. Sic transit gloria mundi....

I see a kit of the Adams radial tank listed for 2020 delivery on the Sunset Valley website - I will order as this would be a genuine new build.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

2020?
Still 10 months to go and with COVID-19 who knows when it might be shipped!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

If you look at the mass-produced stuff in the smaller scales, they generally fall into two categories: Generic and iconic. The generic category would include all those USRA types that can be lettered for a number of different roadnames, and in the iconic category you have the Big Boys, Challengers, UP Northerns, SP Daylights, Pennsy K4s, Van Sweringen Berkshires, Casey Jones' ten-wheeler, and NYC Hudsons both unstreamlined and streamlined. All of these were done at one time or another in HO by the likes of Rivarossi or Bachmann. And all of them except the Dreyfuss Hudson have been produced in live steam at one time or another by Aster, Accucraft, or Wuhu. I would certainly have thought that the Dreyfuss would fall more squarely into the iconic category than say a Great Northern 4-8-4 or an SP 2-10-2.

I think it didn't help that the Dreyfuss was originally announced as a 1:32 model but when the pre-production sample showed up it was 1:29, which I'm sure alienated a lot of potential buyers who would have been interested in the 1:32 version. Although the Accucraft 1:29 switchers seemed to be pretty popular, and Aristo's plastic-bodied live steam offerings did ok, I don't think the market was ever really there for big (and expensive) live steam engines in 1:29. G scalers can be pretty cheap compared to the Gauge One folks. It was also one of those projects that was in the development stage right around when the economy tanked, like the CP Selkirk and SP Pacific that never saw the light of day beyond the preproduction sample, and I don't think the Pennsy Mountain even made it that far.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

6 figures? clearly the cost of the project to the manufacturer is LESS that the production run size times the selling price, there has to be some profit.


So if a manufacturer claims they can do a production run of 30 then $650,000 is BS.


I understand trying to underscore the cost, the risk does NOT increase the cost unless it fails and do this often enough and you are out of business.


so yes, you can get to 6 figures, but let's do the math realistically please.


$5,000 cost (pretty **** high) times 30 is indeed 150k...


Greg


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> 6 figures? clearly the cost of the project to the manufacturer is LESS that the production run size times the selling price, there has to be some profit.
> 
> So if a manufacturer claims they can do a production run of 30 then $650,000 is BS.
> $5,000 cost (pretty **** high) times 30 is indeed 150k...
> ...


No one ever said the $650,000 figure was just for the models, and certainly not just for 30 models. That figure becomes all the more realistic when the commissioner is bound to import an allotment of 100 units or more AND development cost is rolled into the overall FOB per unit from Japan.

It is also worth noting the importer/commissioner has to front a sizeable chunk of money for the pilot model and the design work to build said model into a production ready item. Let's call that 100k in round figures. So, that gets wrapped into the overall cost of investment in a project of this magnitude. Add in 100 units at 5k FOB to the importer and the 650k is far from fantastical.

Believe it (or not) if you want, but those who think otherwise about the numbers in real terms need only apply to find out for themselves. 

There is some truth to the adage: "The best way to make a small fortune in this hobby is to start with a large one".


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I would certainly have thought that the Dreyfuss would fall more squarely into the iconic category than say a Great Northern 4-8-4 or an SP 2-10-2.


I think that's the point I was making - thank you, Richard. And I don't think anyone expected 100 of them. Accucraft seems to need 25-50 firm orders before they begin production. Aster's business model, if that's what you are referencing with the "allotment" for the importer/dealer, is clearly out of line with the current market. Maybe that's why they are no longer in business . . . :-(


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