# Working with the new Titan, and a review



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

For those interested in QSI's new Titan, I thought I would post a general review and description of how it works. 


_My bottom line is that it’s definitely worth the money, compared to its competition, and it’s a big improvement over the old QSI decoders_, but it also has some very significant downsides relating to the poor documentation. This is how it seems to me, a regular DCC using guy, no pretensions to being an expert. There may be aspects to this decoder that I haven't figured out, for reasons explained below.

For a more general review, I'd say 

Pros: 
Higher amperage rating (May require cooling fan)
Screw terminals
Stereo sound and the ability to mix/pan sounds
lots of cool tweaks to light operation
support for external triggers

Cons
Mostly same sounds as before 
non-standard DCC practice for lighting control
difficult to map individual function to individual buttons except in groups
Astonishingly bad documentation
Did I mention astonishingly bad documentation?
Many features are inaccessible. 


The screw terminals are an excellent feature and so easy to work with. The three strips of screw terminals on this board are small slotheads, but work well. There are four terminals (2 + and 2 -) for track power, a great idea. 

The first feature most people will notice is the stereo speaker capability. In some ways this may seem silly--how much "stereo" effect can you get from speakers 4-10 inches apart? There is an effect: it’s not huge, but it’s there, and the wider the separation, the greater the effect. But more useful, you can "mix" the sounds. For example, if you have a big speaker in a tender or fuel tank in the center, you can direct the motor sounds to that speaker, and the bell and or whistle sounds to smaller speaker mounted in the cab. You can set the balance of each, so the middle speaker is 75% motor, and 20 percent whistle, and set the opposite for the front speaker. This is a really great idea. I haven't had a chance to mess with it fully yet, but already I like it. Not only can have have sounds come from the right place, you can also, by adjusting the pan between the two speakers, adjust the timbre and frequency response of the sound. 

You can also adjust the pitch of sounds, slightly. So if you have two locomotives with the same sound file, you can make one sound different, but still recognizably the same file. If you have two F units with the same sound file, you can adjust one of them slightly, so they differ more as they would differ in real life. 

The motor control is much better than the old decoders. The old decoders had a tendency to chatter and jerk on startup. Its much less pronounced with the new decoders, right out of the box. Less jerking, better low speed control.

QSI now offers more function options. You can control more lights and a smoke generator. Supposedly it will accept a chuff sensor and external triggers, so you can trigger sounds when running on DC or battery/remote control. 

That’s the upside. The downside is considerable. QSI has deviated from standard DCC practice in a number of ways. With other decoders you can easily “map” a function to a function button. For example, you can set the decoder so that you can trigger individual lights or sounds with individual function buttons. You can assign a function to any button you want. QSI has apparently departed from that custom, and introduced its own, much more complicated system of “ports” and virtual outputs. I found it impossible to do things that with other decoders are dead simple. Just setting the decoder so that I could turn the headlight on with one button and the classification lights on with another has proven to be either impossible or too complicated to pull off. I say “either” because of the second downside: the unbelievably bad, chaotic documentation. But great features are of no value to ordinary users unless they are accessible to ordinary users, and right now, they aren’t.[/b] 

I’m not overstating here: QSI’s manuals are spotty, poorly written and confusing. They make references to sections that don’t exist. 

For example, in the latest version of the full, 387 page manual (version 5), it says this on p. 18:

"Lights and other features can be assigned to function keys and configured to different kinds of operation and initial conditions in CV 53 (Output Feature Assignment) and CV 55 (QSI Feature Configuration). See the Quantum DCC Reference Manual, version 4."

But there is no such manual available on the QSI website

If you are trying to figure out how to assign a function to a button, on page 60 of the most recent manual, a footnote directs you to "See Appendix VI Interaction of Function Keys, Function Groups, Function Inputs and Outputs and Feature Assignments for additional technical explanation." Then here's what you see at appendix VI: "Appendix VI Application Notes: Using DC Power Conversion for Block Signal Control." The promised section, in which it’s explained how you map functions to function buttons, simply doesn’t exist.

There are many many more examples: Again, I’m not overstating when I say that QSI’s documentation is unbelievably bad and completely inaccessible to the average DCC user.[/b] 

But despite that I think it's an excellent product with a lot of potential. What follows shows some of the good and the bad. 






I Installed a couple of Titans, one in a steamer and one in a diesel. They worked fine out of the box, and the new stereo tweaks to the sound were cool. But in both locos, I wanted to assign specific lights to a specific function button. For example, in the Diesel, a USAT F3, I wanted to assign the cab light to F4, which I've used to trigger a cab light in some other locos. With most DCC decoders this is a very straightforward proposition. You "map" the functions to a specific button.


With the Titan, it's much much more complicated and not at all straightforward. The manual tells you almost nothing. Did I mention poor documentation? Let me mention it again. After a lot of blundering, and a long phone call with Jim Belz of the QSI Yahoo forum, who stepped me through a few thing, I was able to do what I wanted by using Decoder Pro in place of QSI's "CV Manager" software, I highly highly recommend Decoder Pro for working with this decoder. 


Why? Well for one thing, QSI wants you to group the lights into one of three sets, which it calls "Multiple Automatic Lights #1," "Multiple Automatic Lights #2," and "Multiple Automatic Lights #3." This is nothing like other decoders. It seems to be part of a long term strategy involving more sophisticated software that aims to "emulate" a locomotives functioning. Why "automatic? Beats me. But it doesn't mention this three set grouping scheme AT ALL. in the manual that comes with the decoder. Decoder Pro makes it a little more clear. 


At any rate, I installed the decoder following QSI's chart in the manual that came with the decoder. The diagram describes the cab light this way:














I put the positive leg of the cab light in terminal strip J3 #11, and the negative end in terminal strip J2 #11


It would not turn on. _That's because nowhere in the documentation is it explained that this light is triggered by F12_. Imagine how much hair pulling that resulted in. Anyway, once I figured that out, I was able to turn the cab light on and off with F12. But it wasn't a cab light--it was instead lighting up as a flashing light. Remember that wiring diagram? 














I was looking at the "OHBL" light, blinking away. How do I get the cab light to appear instead?






QSI uses what it calls "ports," "virtual addresses configured in software, which are numbered in a way I can't figure out. They don't conform to the terminal strip numbers. Here's what the "light ports" tab looks like in Decoder Pro:















I assumed, from the way the light was behaving, that I was looking at either "Front OHBL" or "rear OHBL," and that I needed to redo the ports so that Front Cab and rear cab would be "ported" correctly. 






I should say at this point that I have no idea if I have a "front OHBL" or a "rear OHBL," and no idea if my single cab light is a front cab light or a rear cab light. There is no wiring terminal for front and rear OHBL lights, or for front or rear cab lights, just space at terminal j2 # 11 for "cab light or OHBL." 












I just know I have one OHBL, blinking, and I've managed to get it to turn on by pressing F12. After a lot of trial and error, I reset the ports to look like this:

















Aha! Now I have a functioning cab light, triggered by F12. I still don't know if it's a "front cab light" or a "rear cab light." At least it's lighting up when I press F12. But I didn't want to use F12--I don't like messing with the shift key on the throttle/cab. I want to put the cab light where I have it on other decoders, F4. Or maybe F5 or F6--something below 10. How to I do that? 






Now I need to go, it turns out, to the "functions output" tab, which look like this in Decoder Pro














Notice that in the far left column, you see the Function key numbers? F0f, F3, F6 etc? Apparently you can use these pull down menus to set functions to keys. Lets take a look at our choices:




















Uh oh. Which one do I pick? I don't know. I only have one cab light. What's the difference between "automatic" and non automatic? I have no idea. I tried several times to set the cab light alone to F9, picking among these choices with no luck. There was some interaction between automatic and non automatic status that I still don't understand. 






So I decided to try a different way. Remember how QSI wants you to deal with lights in groups it calls "Multiple Automatic Lights?" There's a tab for that in Decoder Pro.











Above is how I ended up setting it--the headlight, ditch lights and number boards are all set to group #1, triggered by F0. The cab light is in group #3. Some of the other lights in group #1 don't exist on my loco--I just left them checke, they aren't doing anything 


Then I went back to the function outputs page, and here it is as I ended up setting it. I put the cab light into group three, and then set group three to be triggered by F9, because there was nothing I would miss much assigned to F9.




















It works. 


I'm not at all sure why they wanted to do it this way, except that I think on a modern diesel with lots and lots of lights, there would not be enough function keys to operate them? Or maybe there will be future software upgrades that will make it all clear. 

Further considerations: 

One of the most significant features of the titan is the smoke generator. The Titan allows you to control a smoke generator and sync it to engine revs or “chuffs.” The manual that comes with the decoder tells how how to wire the smoke generator, but it says nothing whatsoever about how you run it once you set it up, or how you would turn it on or off. Consulting the most recent full manual, the 387-page version 5, also tells you nothing. It may be that in the future, they’ll explain how it works. But for now, most people will just be puzzled. 

A final issue with the current decoder is the sounds: they are mostly the same sounds you heard in the old decoder. QSI hasn’t yet upgraded its sound files to take advantage of the Titan’s greater capabilities. So for the most part, what you hear is the old sound files, with a few more tweaks possible. Here again, QSI is working on it and promises fully updated sound files “soon.” 

My bottom line on the QSI is it’s a significant improvement on the old decoders, and worth the money. It may, at some point in the future, turn out to be dramatically better. [/b]


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm struggling to see why it's worth the money and a "significant improvement" when the only new/positive thing it seems to have is the sound panning and a lot less in ease of use? Looking at the wiring diagram it doesn't appear to have separate control over the heater for the smoke maker either so I can't see how that is going to be tied in to actual load the way other decoders are. Wake me up when it has half the actually working features of something like the Zimo 695kv. 

Keith


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, I understand what you mean now....improved relative to the previous QSI. I feel your pain, though, as it shouldn't be that difficult.

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Very nice and concise write-up lownote - it obviously only covers items that you have tried to program and that are actually available, not some speculation what may come (or not) in the future. 

Keith, the way I read it, the comments about "significant improvement" relate to QSI's older decoder not the direct competition like Zimo, Massoth and ESU. That comparison is still coming. 
The biggest "improvement" compared to the others I mentioned (IMHO) is that one can get some very specific US type sounds that are not available from the other DCC sound decoder manufacturers, at least not yet. 

Knut 

PS: I shouldn't have had my cup of coffee - this post was supposed to go up before your last one Keith.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well it seems that someone (moderator or otherwise) is now editing my posts so I give up...that's all for me on here.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Posts were edited or removed because they violated the forum rules concerning courtesy to fellow forum members. Subsequent posts then had to be edited because they referenced the posts which were deleted. It matters not which moderator did the editing/deleting. Rules were violated, posts were deleted. End of story. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The text above does not indicate all the new things in the QSI, so I do not see how you came to the conclusion that the only new things are sound panning and less ease of use.

I don't think much of the above "review", because it's looking to blame, not solve, but if you think is it an all encompassing view of the product it is not. 

There are many new features, and along with the features come additional complexity unfortunately. Greg 
Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 23 Aug 2012 02:53 PM 
I'm struggling to see why it's worth the money and a "significant improvement" when the only new/positive thing it seems to have is the sound panning and a lot less in ease of use? Looking at the wiring diagram it doesn't appear to have separate control over the heater for the smoke maker either so I can't see how that is going to be tied in to actual load the way other decoders are. Wake me up when it has half the actually working features of something like the Zimo 695kv. 

Keith


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, I dont think you actually read what I wrote. For example, this: 


"My bottom line is that it’s definitely worth the money, compared to its competition, and it’s a big improvement over the old QSI decoders, but it also has some very significant downsides relating to the poor documentation," and this, at the end: "My bottom line on the QSI is it’s a significant improvement on the old decoders, and worth the money. It may, at some point in the future, turn out to be dramatically better." 


The review describes my experience with the thing. It's as honest and balanced as I could make it, and I hope that it will be useful to others who are interested in the decoder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A point: the documentation (the main DCC reference manual) is unchanged in format from the one prior. Why are you unhappy with it now, all of a sudden? 

Also, the lighting ports were also in the original documentation for the QSI (although you could not reprogram the ports). 

I don't deny it's complex, but after all the waiting, how the documentation could come as a surprise means to me that you were not familiar with the original QSI. 

That's ok, but blaming QSI now for a format they have had for years just seems unreasonable. 

That's my point... 

Is that illogical? Unreasonable? 

Also I post here on MLS not for my ego or to pimp QSI, but to help others that have difficulty, or when I find errors in the manual, or find tips to help others. 

I'm really souring on the whole thing here, maybe I will just post that I have some new information and people can email me for answers or go to my web site. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm unhappy with it now because it's of little use with the new decoder, which has been two years in the making. The old large scale QSI's did not have lighting function outputs that were accessible to the user, other than the headlight and the reverse light. Thus there was no reason to read the manual pertaining to those features. 

I'm not actually blaming anyone, I'm pointing out what seems to me the good and the bad, and not writing as an expert but as an average user. QSI does have very poor documentation--that's just a fact, and I gave some examples. it's not my fault that the manual references appendices that don't exist, or the smoke generator has been introduced as a feature with no documentation to describe its use. 

I think it's an excellent decoder: I'd buy more of them. But QSI ought to know how it's received by average users.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My opinion is that it would have been better to release the upgraded sound files, and a "recipe" for the smoke unit and perhaps easier to use software for the lighting groups at the same time the hardware was released. 

BUT, many people bitterly complained about the hardware not coming out, being delayed, as you know, being one of those people. It's OK to say whatever you want, of course, but it probably cause a somewhat premature release. 

The problem is that QSI Solutions is a small company, and they don't have a huge staff of people testing all of this stuff. Why else would they ask outside people to help check stuff out. I'm busy with testing other facets, and had no time to go into the lighting at the time. 

So, I'm not asking for a "pity party" for QSI, but in today's financial times, it is VERY difficult to launch a product with so many features and commands, and in so small a market, the HO market dwarfs ours. 

The good news is that there are people tearing into these, and all the issues can and will be solved by firmware updates... and QSI Solutions has a track record that supports this. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Documentation is part and parcel of the product - QSI has been around long enough to know that. 
And clear, concise, easy-to-follow documentation is more important than ever because of the capability and complexity of this product. 

The way it sits right now people are just left with a bad taste in their mouth because they con't get some very basic things to work on their new shiny decoder. 

The documentation issue was brought up at least six months ago on MLS and it doesn't look as if anything has been done about it from what I can see. 

Even Lee's comments relate to fixing and/or adding to the features, nothing about fixing the documentation. 
I get the feeling that QSI thinks the documentation is just fine the way it is and nothing will be done about it. 

The Zimo Large Scale decoder manual covering all ten versions of their MX695, 696 and 697 G-Scale decoders is all of 40 pages, the QSI reference one at 383 pages is almost ten times the size plus a 16-page diesel specific one. 
Doesn't make sense to me. 
And nobody is going to read through all 383 pages - one looks in the index in the back, flips to the pages indicated for whatever one wants to accomplish and that should be it. 
But that doesn't work with the QSI manual. 

Knut 

BTW - I picked Zimo simply because I had that manual readily available, the other Large Scale sound decoder manuals are similar in size.


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By krs on 23 Aug 2012 08:20 PM 
Documentation is part and parcel of the product - QSI has been around long enough to know that. 
And clear, concise, easy-to-follow documentation is more important than ever because of the capability and complexity of this product. 

The way it sits right now people are just left with a bad taste in their mouth because they con't get some very basic things to work on their new shiny decoder. 

The documentation issue was brought up at least six months ago on MLS and it doesn't look as if anything has been done about it from what I can see. 

Even Lee's comments relate to fixing and/or adding to the features, nothing about fixing the documentation. 
I get the feeling that QSI thinks the documentation is just fine the way it is and nothing will be done about it. 

The Zimo Large Scale decoder manual covering all ten versions of their MX695, 696 and 697 G-Scale decoders is all of 40 pages, the QSI reference one at 383 pages is almost ten times the size plus a 16-page diesel specific one. 
Doesn't make sense to me. 
And nobody is going to read through all 383 pages - one looks in the index in the back, flips to the pages indicated for whatever one wants to accomplish and that should be it. 
But that doesn't work with the QSI manual. 

Knut 

BTW - I picked Zimo simply because I had that manual readily available, the other Large Scale sound decoder manuals are similar in size. 

You might want to buy one before you pass judgement, you always have something negative to say about items you dont even own. I bought 2 of the new Titans and installed them today with no issues into
2 Lionel Atlantic's. Ive been reading this forum for a long time and all I hear About QSI from one person is that he would never buy another but yet he's got one of the 1st to be out. Tells you something
doesnt it. If the item your looking to buy is to complicated for you ,you really shouldn't buy it now should we. I own 11 of the older versions and have been really happy with them as well as 3 Zimos I have.

Jethro

P.S. I have no ideal what going on with the software on this forum lately. Have no ideal why my post printed out the way it did.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope you don't mean me? I never said I would never buy another one. The ones I have were sent as warranty replacements for the old decoders. But I'll buy one if I need another.

I had no problem at all installing them, and they worked fine out of the box. Let me say that again: i had no trouble at all with the baaic inatall, and i mentioned, they worked well and sounded good. I did have trouble remapping the lighting functions, as described. Have you tried remapping any of the lighting functions?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut on the QSI manual you look at the index or table of contents... are you saying they are missing?







They are there in my manual. 

And the Zimo manual is better because it is fewer pages? It has less explanation for commands, where QSI devotes a page. QSI has more features, of course more pages. 

I think your reasoning is 180 degrees out. 

I have several Zimos and it was hard to decipher what is meant, and there is no detailed explanation, nor examples... and it's a rough translation from German in places. I love the decoders, hate the documentation. 

I have read your tirades on the QSI manual before... so of course I won't convince you, but for others, download each manual and look up a topic... make your own decision.









There's tons of QSI's out there and you don't hear the HO people complaining, go to their forum. Now go to the Zimo forum... oops, there is one started in 2006 with one post... there's another one with hardly anything... 

Who told you to read through all 383 pages? the same guy who told you to read the entire dictionary to find one word? I have some prime land and a bridge to sell you...









Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Jethro J. on 23 Aug 2012 08:43 PM . 

You might want to buy one before you pass judgement, you always have something negative to say about items you dont even own.

I'm commenting on the documentation not on the unit itself.
The documentation is all on line, so I do have what I'm commenting on.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Aug 2012 12:20 AM 
Knut on the QSI manual you look at the index or table of contents... are you saying they are missing?







They are there in my manual. 

And the Zimo manual is better because it is fewer pages? It has less explanation for commands, where QSI devotes a page. QSI has more features, of course more pages. 

I think your reasoning is 180 degrees out. 

I have several Zimos and it was hard to decipher what is meant, and there is no detailed explanation, nor examples... and it's a rough translation from German in places. I love the decoders, hate the documentation. 

I have read your tirades on the QSI manual before... so of course I won't convince you, but for others, download each manual and look up a topic... make your own decision.









There's tons of QSI's out there and you don't hear the HO people complaining, go to their forum. Now go to the Zimo forum... oops, there is one started in 2006 with one post... there's another one with hardly anything... 

Who told you to read through all 383 pages? the same guy who told you to read the entire dictionary to find one word? I have some prime land and a bridge to sell you...









Greg 

Greg,
You need to read the posts more carefully.

What I said is that the index is what people are looking at to find specific topics especially in a large manual like the QSI one.
The index does not show the term "port" or "ports". the term "port" was one of the confusing issues that came up early in the discussion about trying to assign specific function keys and refernce to that is missing in the index.

I also never said that the Zimo manual is better. I'm simply pointing out that Zimo and the other DCC sound decoder manufacturers who make very similar decoders to the QSI Titan can document their product in one-tenth the number of pages. There is absolut no reason why the QSI manual has to be that huge. Even the 16-page Diesel manual has repetition in it even within the same short section - like I said before, it seems nobody has actually proof-read them.

And this is the funniest one of your comments: "Who told you to read through all 383 pages?"
The answer is YOU......you are the one who posted that you bet that lownote hasn't read through all the 383 pages of the QSI manual.

BTW - I have read through relavent parts of the 383-page QSI manual, at least the sections one could find. There have been enough xamples by me and others about issues with the QSI manual - pretending they are just fine and people have been usng them without complaints does nothing to correct the problem.

But it's QSI's business what to do about it (or not).

Knut


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I want to reiterate that if you just do a basic install--power, motor, headlights, speaker--it works very well and is an excellent sound and motor decoder. But if you want to do any of the stuff you can do easily with other decoder, it's extremely difficult and unclear. 


For example: I installed one last night in a steam loco. Everything was a piece of cake till it came time to do two things: install a firebox light, and , again, a cab light.



Cab light was fairly easy--install, F12 controls, remap so that it's on F9. NOTE: QSI's CV MANAGER DOES NOT TELL YOU wHAT FUNCTION KEYS YOU ARE AFFECTNG. You need to use Decoder Pro, which thoughtfully tells you.



The manual that came with came with the decoder has a wiring diagram. It says to connect the firebox to pin #12 on strip J3 and pin 11 on strip J2. Done. But nothing happens. No firebox light. My multimeter shows no voltage on the pins. Sigh. Why is that? Ok, check which multiple automatic light group the firebox is in. It's in Groups #2 and 3. Those are on, because the cab light is working. Greg's page says the firebox is nconfigured to be always on. Well not on this ddecoder--on this one it's always off. 


Check the lighting ports. Greg's page says to set the light ports to 9 for the firebox. Done. Still no voltage. I tried remapping the firebox to one of the other pins, that DID have voltage. Big mistake. I ended up with a bizarre situation where the headlight flickered in time with the chuff, and the loco would not run smoothly, as if the directions to the firebox were being fed to the motor. YIKES!!! RESET!!



So back to square one. Still no voltage on pin 1, which is supposed to control the firebox. And no voltage on pin 10, which is supposed to control the smoke generator fan. Sigh.






How about I just put the firebox led in one of the other light ports, and leave it on as a steady glow instead of the much nicer flicker? Try that. YIKES Now the headlight goes off when the loco is in forward and the cab light doesn't work. And what's this? F9 is now controlling the headlight? How can that be? Check the multiple light groups--no, the headlight is not set to group 3, it's still in group 1.






OK, another global reset. Maybe I have a defective decoder? I'm sitting here waiting for Decoder Pro to finish reading in the decoder data after the reset. Then what?






They *really *need to fix the documentation on this decoder. It's just too complicated to do really basic stuff. I'm no expert--let me stress that again But it should not take SIX HOURS to get a firebox light to work. A $50 decoder can do that in five minutes..


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I left it with the firebox light hooked to pin 12, the way the manual says. It still doesn't work. The cab light works when the loco is in neutral but not when it's moving. I'm not sure why.

if you just want to drop it in the socket and have it run forwards and backwards while making sounds, it works fine. if you want to do any elementary DCC stuff, you're in for major headaches. If anyone from QSI can explain what I'm doing wrong, I'd love to know. If there's some kind of update coming that will make this thing make sense, I'd like to kno that too. 

Until then I'm going to run these in the most basic way possible. Track power, motor, headlight, speaker.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Knut, your reading could be more "careful" too!









I want to talk about your complaint on the length of the manual:

"There is absolut no reason why the QSI manual has to be that huge."

As already stated, the QSI manual shows details and examples and explanations.

The Zimo manual does not, and has fewer functions and controls for sounds and lights. It's also very terse.

I'm delighted that QSI has gone into such detail.

I have no vested interest in either, although I've done some gratis testing for Axel and for Tony. I have several of both decoders. I find that while the QSI manual is not "task oriented" it is very complete, detailed, and has examples.

The Zimo documentation is terse, incomplete, sometimes poorly translated and some things are just not documented or explained.

So, I really cannot understand your logic which seems solely based on the number of pages.

Could you give me some objective, as opposed to subjective reasons?

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I think qsi makes a good product, and I want them to succeed. But why should it be so hard to have a firebox light? I had a digital non sound decoder in there before, and it ran a flickering firebox, cab light, headlight, and the motor for under fifty dollars. QSI seem to have over complicated things.

I look forward to software updates, and hope they take advantage of the features the decoder promises.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Aug 2012 03:29 PM 

Could you give me some objective, as opposed to subjective reasons?

Greg





























Well, I don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but here is a starter:

One of the problems with the large QSI manual is just that it is not structured properly.

Take the programming of the cab light for example since that was one of the items lownote was having difficulty with.

According to the index, the cab light information is shown in 12 different places all over the manual


Front Cab Lights...........................................................................…25 
Automatic ................................................................................296 
Activate using F12...........................................................17, 18 
Configuration ......................................................................268 
Feature ID=116...................................................................113
Explicit 
On/Off Feature ID=117 ........................................................115
Initial State...............................................................................267 
Max Intensity (CV 55.116.12).....................................................269 
Ramp Down Rate (CV 55.116.16) ..............................................271 
Ramp Down Time (CV 55.116.18)..............................................273 
Ramp Up Rate (CV 55.116.15) ..................................................270 
Ramp Up Time (CV 55.116.17) ..................................................27

Rear Cab light information, the same.

The rear ditch light information is even more spread out, in 19 pages

Rear Ditch Lights Automatic ................................................................................ 294
Configuration (CV 55.88.1-4)........................ 196, 197, 198, 199
Feature ID=88 .................................................................... 114 
Dim Intensity (CV 55.88.10) ...................................................... 202 
Explicit
Dim Feature ID=90.............................................................. 114 
On/Off Feature ID=89.......................................................... 116 
Strobe Feature ID=91.......................................................... 117
Initial State (CV 55.88.0) ........................................................... 195 
Max Intensity (CV 55.88.12) ...................................................... 204 
Min Intensity (CV 55.84.11) ....................................................... 203 
Ramp Down Rate (CV 55.88.16)................................................ 206 
Ramp Down Time (CV 55.88.18) ............................................... 208 
Ramp Up Rate (CV 55.88.15) .................................................... 205 
Ramp Up Time (CV 55.88.17) ................................................... 207 
Strobe Hold Time (CV 55.88.5) .................................................. 200 
Strobe Period (CV 55.88.6) ....................................................... 201

Then I decided to check to see if the Front Ditch light info is also spread out like that, but ooops…no index entry for "Front Ditch Lights", for those QSI decided to use the term "Ditch lights"
Now I'm not sure if that programming affects both the front and rear ditch lights or just the front.

In any case, the "ditch light" information is referenced in 21 different pages.
I'm sure the information on the front and rear ditch lights over lap, but spreading the ditchlight information and the cab light information and all the others over many, many pages not only makes the manual much bigger than it should be, it also becomes very user un-friendly.

The manual needs to be structured from a user point of view.

As a quick test, I decided to check how to program dimming of the headlight when my train is passing an oncoming one.
I would expect that this requires a separate function key.

So looking in the index, I find the CV settings for various dimming levels (page 129) with a reference to the model specific manual.
So I check the diesel manual; it has no index so I trie the search function since I have a soft copy - neither dim nor dimming brings up any hits.
Ok, let's wade through that manually.
I skip over the pages that cover general non-lighting functions and all the sound settings and get to page 15 - Selectable lighting… Aha, that has to be it.
But all that gives me is a bunch of CV references, CV 115.70.0 and settings for CV 49 and 50. 
CV 115 covers feature to port mapping, CV 49 and CV 50 don't relate to dimming either.

So at that point I give up.


So, not only is the QSI documentation large and unwieldy, taking a dozen and more pages to cover what could have been covered in one or two, but when on tries to program very basic DCC capabilities, one is sent from one manual to another, then back to the fisrt one and after all that still no documentation how to program the feature - headlight dimmimg manually controlled in my example.

Lownote provided a few more examples.

And another thing I just noticed, tables in the manual that continue on a second and subsequent page need to have the column headings repeated at the top of the table on each page.
That's pretty basic as well.
Right now the tables that continue on multiple pages don't include tha and one has to either guess what information is in a specufic column or go back to the first page where that table starts.
All pretty obvious stuff.

Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

If you ask me, no toy should have a 383 page manual, no matter what the intent is or how well it is written. At Massoth we try to keep short and simple. 

Mohammed 
http://www.massothusa.com


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mohammed, 

I don't agree with everything you post on mls, but I must say, I'm impressed that your web site is always fully W3C compliant. 
Loads instantly in any browser I have - much better than web sites of some large commercial outfits. 
Congratulations to whoever codes your sites, won't comment about the attractivemess but it's certainly very functional. 

knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 25 Aug 2012 06:20 PM 
Mohammed, 

I don't agree with everything you post on mls, but I must say, I'm impressed that your web site is always fully W3C compliant. 
Loads instantly in any browser I have - much better than web sites of some large commercial outfits. 
Congratulations to whoever codes your sites, won't comment about the attractivemess but it's certainly very functional. 

knut Thanks Knut, I do my own coding and I am solely responsible for its attractiveness or lack thereof. If you think it unattractive and you have suggestions on how to make more attractive, I am all ears. 
Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, no toy should have a 383 page manual, good thing I'm not interested in toys, but products that let me configure them the way I want. When I want to be told how I should use trains I can buy toys. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just find the web site "Plain Jane" but that is OK for its purpose - functionality is much more important. 

To make it visually more attractive requires much more than a tweak her and there - but don't worry about it, people don't go to your web site for visual entertainment but to get information. 
And for that it's fine. I shouldn't have commented on the attractiveness since it's not that important. 

Knut 

Gee - I just noticed that I said "I won't comment about the attractiveness" in my last post....and I still won't. Haha


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Knut: 

"Plain Jane" is actually good for my purpose. 

Mohammed


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm interested in tweaking and configuring as well. But all i want to do right now is turn the firebox on. How about little check box in the CV manager? I'd click it, and I'd have been done hours ago. The full manual says this on page 284:


"_Section 5.7.18 _
_CV 55.122.SI Firebox_
_One feature can be assigned to a function key to control firebox operation:_

_Feature ID_
_122_


_Feature Name _

_Firebox On _

_Use _
_Turn the Firebox On/Off_
_
_
_
_
_When the Feature 122 function state is 1, the Firebox is “On”. The Firebox intensity changes automatically in response to changes to the locomotive’s state._
_....._
_
_
_If CV55.135.0 Interior Lights Initial State bit 4 = “1”, which is the default, the Firebox is “On” at power up and after a Start Up operation. This means the Firebox will automatically be “On” during normal operation. You need not assign feature 122 to a function key unless you want to turn the Firebox “Off”."_

I don't understand what "Feature 122" is. Is it a CV? Why are there two indexed CVs to control the firebox state? Why is one called "interior lights?" What is a function state? If 1 is the default, and one is "on," why is the firebox off on all three decoders I've installed?

I haven't bought any ZImo decoders, because I don't speak German and I don't want to learn German just to program a decoder. Similarly, I don't want to learn a new language just to turn the firebox on. You can insult me all you like for not understanding how to do it, but it won't make me a better customer.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are a bunch of "features", one of which is the firebox lights... you can assign a feature to an output (port) and you can also control most features with a function key. It really does not matter what a feature "is" because you use it and connect it to something. 

So the Firebox flicker has an ID of 122... it turns out that this is by default On... it says that .... then it also tells you that the initial state of the interior lights will control several things, one of which is the firebox flicker, again telling you that by default it is ON. 

So the manual tells you that the initial state is set to turn on interior lights at power up... 

then it tells you that the firebox is effectively one of the interior lights 

and it tells you the firebox lights are enabled by default 

You want to know why interior lights are called interior lights? And it's confusing that one of the interior lights would be a firebox light? I think the firebox would be grouped under interior lights as opposed to exterior lights... seems perfectly logical. 

The documentation also tells you which LED output (port) it is hooked to... It comes to the pin where but somewhere (and I asked instead of looking it up, or checking the CV myself) it tells you that F12 is the default function controlling the firebox. 

In the picture on my Titan page, the smoke fan is hooked to the firebox output... and I do show the CV's that affect the flicker. 

So to recap, the firebox flicker can be enabled and disabled by itself. It is also in a group called interior lights, which group can also be controlled as a group. 

So you have a light switch for your master bathroom ceiling light, and a master breaker for all the lights in your bathroom... same thing, both have to be on to see that light... and you can flip a breaker to turn them all off, ceiling, wall, etc. lamps.. 

It's a very flexible arrangement, thus a lot of commands... also having groups of lights answers requests for people turning a number of lights on and off at the same time. 

If you were to talk to an HO guy you might find they want this complete flexibility.. It's just pretty new to large scale. 

So, hook up your leds and hit the F12 key and you should be fine... 

Now after all of that, please verify the pins you are connecting your LEDs for firebox to, since you have tried on 3 decoders. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

As I mentioned above, the firebox LED is connected to pin 11 on J3 and pin 12 on J2, as specified in the manual that comes with the decoder. I have verified that the led works and that the polarity is correct, and I've verified that there's no voltage in pin 12 when F12 is pressed, or when it's not, by testing it with my multimeter. I've tested it with the headlight on and the headlight off. I've tried assigning the firebox to group 1, group 2, and group 3 variously, and to all three together, and to the combination of two groups. I've assigned it to group 2 alone, and assigned group 2 to F9, and still no voltage. I've reset the decoder three times.


The thing is, neither of us should be wasting our time with this. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm doing something wrong. But this should be a straightforward and simple proposition.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 25 Aug 2012 10:28 PM 
As I mentioned above, the firebox LED is connected to pin 11 on J3 and pin 12 on J2, as specified in the manual that comes with the decoder. I have verified that the led works and that the polarity is correct, and I've verified that there's no voltage in pin 12 when F12 is pressed, or when it's not, by testing it with my multimeter.




How are you measuring the output of J2 pin 12? ie what do you connect the other lead of your multimeter to?

The way I see it from the QSI diagram, J2 pin 12 switches to low or common or ground as QSI calls it, so measuring against ground or common which is the normal set up won't give you any reading.

First thing I would verify is that J3 pin 11 has a solid +5 volts on it. That voltage you check against coomon or ground.
If that tuns out to be OK, then check J2 pin 12 by hooking the other lead of your multimeter to J3 in 11 and check if you get a 5 volt reading when you push the function button.

Depending on the results, that will tell you if your wiring/LED is the problem or the hardware/software of the QSI decoder.

Knut


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've done exactly what you describe multiple times, more or less

Pin 11 is the common. When I hold one probe of the multimeter to pin 11, I get voltage on some of the other pins, e.g. the pins for ditch lights or mars lights. But not on pin 12, which is assigned by the manual to the firebox. I've also tried it by installing the led itself. At no point have I seen voltage on pin 12 when also touching pin 11. 

When I tried mapping the firebox to one of the pins which did have 5 volts on it, a bunch of really odd things happened, described in my earlier post. Most puzzling, the motor started surging as if it was a mars light. The pins I'm talking about are pin 12 where it says "LED 4" and pin 11 in row J3.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

If you measure between pin 7 of J1A and pin 11 of J3 do you get a steady 5 volts regardless of any function button you press? 

And when you say 
When I tried mapping the firebox to one of the pins which did have 5 volts on it, a bunch of really odd things happened 
what pins are you talking about? 
The only pin I see that should have 5 volts on it is pin 11 of J3, the others that connect to the various 200 ohm resistors would normally be open or high impedance and switch to ground when the mapped function button is depressed. 
But the "odd things" that you experienced shouldn't happen either - it's possible that your decoder is defective or if not, the decoder firmware requires a bit more work. 

Knut


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

lownote, What do you think of the volume out of the QSI. I just dropped one into an old Aristo C-16 and had no sound, found I had to connect the factory speaker. The sound level seemed low to me. I was to understand it was set to max out of the box.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It seem like it might be a little lower. I generally keep the sound levels in mine fairly low, set around 35-40. But I did have the feeling the were more quiet, at that level, than the older ones. I've ended up turning them up a little compared to the old decoders. Still more than enough volume though.


I'm loving the two speaker stereo effect. I find that if I have a speaker in the tender, and one in the front of the loco, I can "place" the sound of the whistle to be right where the whistle is by adjusting the speaker levels, or have belll sound appear to come from where the bell sits.


for what it's worth, the decoder I described above, where i could not get the firebox to work, had a defect, and I've sent it in for replacements.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Do you think it has the volume of a Phoenix.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been a while sincd I had a Phoenix card installed. From memory, I'd say yes.

volume should be mostly a function of the watts available and the speaker's efficiency. It's possible that the way sounds are processed is different. For example, if the Phoenix sounds are "compressed"--not comnrpesed in the sense of physically smaller files, but audio compressed, they will sound louder

Id' try a different speaker in the C-16 if you can


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Many of the new sound files seem to have the "volume" turned down... set the volumes up before you download. 

Also, the master volume is NOT set to max by default... CV51.0 .... 

To me, the default chuff volume is WAY too low... I kick up the chuff, bell and whistle... I leave the rod clank alone. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Treeman on 28 Aug 2012 10:02 PM 
lownote, What do you think of the volume out of the QSI. I just dropped one into an old Aristo C-16 and had no sound, found I had to connect the factory speaker. The sound level seemed low to me. I was to understand it was set to max out of the box. 

I've spent some more time with these now and I think you're right the volume is lower on the new titans. It's not so much and issue for me, as I think I tend to run them at lower volume than many people, but it might be a problem if you like to really let 'em rip


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## keitht (Jan 28, 2010)

I am confused. OK it doesn't take a lot but the Titan saga hasn't helped. 
Do I take it that the Titan G Scale card is now available? 
Reading through the above and a number of other posts I am left wondering what happened to the Plug n' Play aspect which is one of the reasons I bought a Bachmann K27. 
The first pre-Titan card I tried did not work and I was left awaiting, seemingly forever, the vaunted Titan. 
It appears that if ever I am able to purchase a Titan that I will have to have dedicated programming gear too. 
Someone please tell me I am wrong. 

Also, it appears that I have probably missed the first batch of cards in any event. :-((


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I wouldn't like to be in their shoes (QSI's), wanting to get the (at last) Titan units into the hands of the guys who are knowledgeable enough to offer help to us less technically adept - and wanting to get some units into the stores so they can reach the average customer - and wishing they had more left to take care of such situations as a customer who bought a Quantum from a well-known dealer back in spring, 2011, and it had to be returned to QSI who determined it was defective, so the guy who spent his cash a year and a half ago probably should be close to the top of the list and is waiting to at least get a response to his email. 

JackM 

Sorry about the run-on sentence, but it's more cathartic that way.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The Titan cards have been released. Some dealers have them, some seem to have sold out already. 

You do not need to have the QSI programming gear to use the Titan. Repeat, do NOT!









You DO need the QSI programming gear if you want to change the sounds from what came on your QSI card.


You can makes changes to the sounds or the light operations more easily if you have the QSI Programmer OR something like JMRI and a physical interface that works with JMRI like the digitrax PR3.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Just an explanation for people who might not be that familiar with DCC. 

DCC works by storing information in "configuration variables" (CVs). Standard things--locomotive behaviors, sounds, lights--are assigned to specific CV numbers. For example, the locos rate of acceleration is set in CV 3, and its rate of deceleration in CV 4. If you set CV 3 to, say, 60, the loco will slowly accelerate. If you set it to zero, it will jump like a jackrabbit. 

The more complicated the decoder, the more CVs you use, and in QSIs case, they started "indexing" cvs, so some cvs could have two or three values. It gets complicated to work with. 

So people have come up with software that makes it easier. QSI offers a free program called "CV Manager," and there is also a free program called "Decoder Pro" available as part of JMRI. 

These two pieces of software "talk" to the loco via a physical interface, a little box, that connects to your computer and then to the track. Put the loco on the track, open the software, and you can change cvs all day long, easily by means of simple check boxes and pull down menus. Instead of entering, say, CV 52.11.3 =15, you just move a little slider or click a radio button. Then you save the "file" for that loco, and off you go. I do it all the time, using Decoder Pro, which runs on Apples OSX. 

To do any of this , you need that little interface box/dongle I mentioned. QSI makes one the QSI programmer. Digitrax makes one, the PR3. There's a cool one called the "Sprog." One of these boxes will run you between $50 and $150. You can program pretty much ny manufacturers decoder with a PR3, or the Sprog, or the QSI dongle. In my opinion, they are completely an totally worth it. I often change CVS on the fly, while the loco is running around the track, but it's just easier to have a file that records what you're doing, and lets you see the changes graphically. 

BUT specific to QSI, if you bought a decoder, and you want to switch it from a steam sound to a diesel sound, or vice versa, you specifically need to have QSI's little programming dongle. Supposedly, QSI is now storing ALL loco files on the titan, and you can change sounds by just entering cvs. I briefly tried and could not get it to work. As far as I know, for now, If you want to modify the sound file--like switch horns, or bells, or etc--you need to have the QSI programming dongle. 

It's the same dealio with other manufacturers sound decoders. For example, if I want to change the sound files on an ESU decoder, not just tweak the volumes, I need ESU's programming dongle. 

But you can get a QSI titan for aristo, plug it into the aristo socket, and if aristo didn't mess up the wiring of the socket, start running right away.


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## keitht (Jan 28, 2010)

V many thanks for the explanation. 
Easily the best I have seen. 
I want a card suitable for the Bachmann K27 preferably with everything pre-loaded. Whilst i might go as far as getting a Sprog or QSI dongle I doubt tht I shall delve too deeply into the CVs on a daily basis. 
All I need to do now is find a supplier. Presumably there is nothing available yet here in the UK and by the sound of it most in the USA have been sold already. That could be a blessing in disguise in that you guys have ironed out the bugs for the next batch. ;-))


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Important finding I am posting in every QSI thread: 

You MUST have a motor connected to the Titan when programming. The original QSI did not require this. The Titan does. Just spent quite a few hours with someone who used his existing bench programming setup that did not include a motor connected. 

Greg


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