# K-36 Live Steam - At Diamondhead



## jmkling (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got back from Japan and was looking at the Diamonhead pictures and found out that Cliff from Accucraft brought the Live Steam K-36 to run and show off...could Accucraft be getting ready to take orders?  Lets hope so./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## jmkling (Jan 2, 2008)

Just taked to Royce, Accucraft is taking orders /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif, retail Price is $4750 /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif, price is good til 11/1/08.  $400 Deposit.  Don't know if they are offering any early order discount.  More info to follow when I see Royce at cabin fever.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jon,
The live steam K-36 is a real beauty with lots of overhang like a Colorado NG should have. Looks good with the San Juan set. As far as I could note, there are few issues. By the way, a water bath heater is provided, but it is manual by pushing down a whistle valve handle. Draincocks cleared the switches here, but that should be looked at more closely since it's very wide at the steam chests. Fuller will post better pictures soon. I think I like it better than the K-28


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## jmkling (Jan 2, 2008)

Just got back from Cabin Fever, dropped of the deposit.  Est ship date is early 2009.  I am trying to get a copy of the announcement sheet.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Jon, it is big and beautiful and worthy of lust. BUT, it just plain won't clear tall switchstands on Sunset Valley turnouts unless they are equipped with the extra long switchstand mounting ties. I'm sure because I set it on one of Pete Comley's new turnouts and there just wasn't any clearance for the target switchstands unless the engine wouldn't "waddle" and unfortunately it does. If your track has ground throws, no problem. BTW Cliff guessed that the whistle valve used to send steam to the tender to warm the fuel would be dropped from the finished models. But with a boiler that is 3-1/2 inches in diameter, it hauls a lot of water and takes a good long time to get up to pressure. There is no axle pump and no tender pump. It's just a standard Accucraft K in that regard. Still spits too much steam oil on the pretty paint and trim parts. 

They ran it real slow and occasionally fast enough to show that it could do that too. They are still doing the same through the flues lubricator and all the cab fittings were the normal ones -- except for the tender warmer I mentioned earlier. 

It looks outstanding in front of a set of San Juans! 

Ross Schlabach


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ground throws will be a problem unless they are place a good distance from the rails.  We had to set our throws several inches away just for the K28/27.
The problem that is of most concern is the additional width of the engine relative to running with other equiipment; will there be problems?
I do not think that most portable layouts will have 8 to 9 inch centers for clearance of passing engines.


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## chama (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RP3 on 01/21/2008 7:46 AM

There is no axle pump and no tender pump. It's just a standard Accucraft K in that regard. 

Ross Schlabach


The K-28 has a tender pump and the K-36 better have one!

Since the picture of the K-36 live steamer appeared in the K-28 manual 2+ years ago, one hopes that the demo model will be improved upon given the trend in the intervening years.  I bet it didn't have the photo-etched details of the K-28, either.

The test of my theory will be the forthcoming C-19.  Its demo model has been around for a couple of years and does not, I hope, represent the detail and features of what gets delivered.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Diverting the thread somewhat in response to the last comment, I think I heard Cliff say that the C-19s were on the water. Should mean a fun spring for some folks. 

Ross Schlabach


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a shot I took at DH...


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, 

That is a K-28. The K-36 series would have a number between 480-489.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Oops!!! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif You're right... sorry.  The previous photo on the memory card was tha K-36, but it was moving so the photo was blurred.  I ASSUMED without looking too carefully. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  Here's to egg on my face.  hehehe


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jmkling on 01/18/2008 5:47 PM
Just taked to Royce, Accucraft is taking orders /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif, retail Price is $4750 /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif, price is good til 11/1/08.  $400 Deposit.  Don't know if they are offering any early order discount.  More info to follow when I see Royce at cabin fever.


Jon:
The K-36 is priced like the Cab Forward with a preorder price lower than the final price; preorder requires a $400 non-refundable deposit.  The preorder price is $4500 and the final price $4750.  I'd seen this somewhere but to verify I called Accucraft and confirmed the info, the deadline for the preorders is 11/1/08 so still plenty of time.


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## jmkling (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris,


I posted the product annuncement in another post that had the updated info, thanks for confirming.  I got my order in already, don't expect to see in till 2009 sometime.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jmkling on 01/23/2008 4:33 PM


Chris,


I posted the product annuncement in another post that had the updated info, thanks for confirming.  I got my order in already, don't expect to see in till 2009 sometime.



I knew I'd seen an announcement somewhere.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01/22/2008 1:51 PM
Oops!!! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif You're right... sorry.  The previous photo on the memory card was tha K-36, but it was moving so the photo was blurred.  I ASSUMED without looking too carefully. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  Here's to egg on my face.  hehehe


Dwight,

  Don't sweat it. That is an easy mistake to make considering the engines look very similair from the side. Cover the engine number and it's anyones guess (for most people). 

  Does anyone have a few good photos of the new K-36??? Maybe even next to another engine (like a K-28) for size comparison?? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif

 If not, hopefully this engine will make it to the East Coast show in March, then Jon Kling can do a good side by side comparison like he did with the K-28 vrs K-27 last year.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

David,
         My DH 2008 pictures are here and there are a few of the K36, they are about half way down the page.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/wpandyr/Diamondhead2008
picasaweb.google.co.uk/wpandyr/Diamondhead2008

This is the first.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/wpandyr/Diamondhead2008/photo#5157562801563343634

Hope this helps.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod,


  Thanks for sharing. Very nice!  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif

  Now let me clean the drewl off my key board... LOL /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## chama (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff at Accucraft confirmed today that the production specs for the K-36 call for a tender pump. He brings up a valid point that I've wondered about and that's the ultimate limiting fluid: oil. 

From: Cliff Luscher 
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 4:31 PM 
To: Scott Loomer 
Subject: Re: K-36 LS 
Hi again Scott 

I got the confirmation that the production LS K-36's requirement is to have a pump in the tender. 

Cliff - tech. 
Accucraft 


On Jan 24, 2008 10:50 AM, Cliff Luscher wrote: 

Dear Scott 

All the production K-28's came with pumps so I assume the K-36's will as well. The prototype does not but that doesn't mean anything. However even with out the pump the boiler on the K-36 will run 1 hour 15 min. without injecting water. Something that does need thinking about is an engine that runs 1 1/4 hours with out putting water in it is does the lubricator have enough steam cylinder oil in it to last that long. When I fire on real 3 foot gauge oil fired locos out here in the west we need to refill the steam cylinder oil so that you don't run the cylinders lubrication dry. On the models doing this will damage the piston O rings and once that happens you will have loss of power and major blow by. I would personally really like a elec. feed water pump. However all this is kind of after market add on stuff and the more extras that get added the more expensive the model becomes. I am checking with the general manager on this issue and will email you again when I find out. I however think that I'm 99 % positive that the production K-36's will have tender water pumps. 
Best regards 
Cliff - tech. 
Accucraft


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott
A better design of the lube tube system would help to extend the oil availability over a given run time.  The present design allows for extreme "suck out" of oil but a regulator setup so one could meter the oil usage and requirements throughout a run would be better.  As to cost, given the investment one puts forth of "large green bucks" for the cost  of a few more bucks that would improve the system and prevent problems most would accept.  To achieve "uncompromised reliability" would be better accomplished with a better lubicator- metered.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 01/24/2008 6:20 PM
Scott
A better design of the lube tube system would help to extend the oil availability over a given run time.  The present design allows for extreme "suck out" of oil .................


Charles, given the propensity for Accucraft locomotives to use oil you would think that a large after market of replacement lubricators would have developed by now.  Also, you would think Accucraft themselves would revise the design.  Why don't a few of us try calling Cliff and see if we can get this changed for the K36.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
Would be a worthy campaign but I fear......" However all this is kind of after market add on stuff and the more extras that get added the more expensive the model becomes."

As to aftermarket; out there and available.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

I thought the same exact thing. Why not a DIRECT REPLACEMENT after market Accucraft compatable metered lubricator from someone? Come on guys, there are a lot of locos out there that can use this upgrade.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

Your forgetting that even if it becomes a metered lubricator, the oil would still be piped through the superheater, which in my book is a BAD thing. Properly, we need a deadleg (metered/unmetered) and a kit to install it so that the oil enters right at the valve chest where it will be most beneficial. Superheated oil just thins out and leads to premature failure and if you meter this, it thins out even more, becoming nothing more than nice blue smoke. Not to mention that a deadleg frees up room in the cab by placing it where an air tank would be in real life (ala the GS-4 and C-16). 

Bottom line: 
If a $2,xxx C-16 can have an OEM deadleg,then why not a $4,xxx K-27/28/36 or for that matter, a slightly more expensive AC-11/12 not have a separate oil feed that comes in right at the valve chest?


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

I am by no means a live steam expert, but we all know that water is the worst thing for oil. By what most of you are saying most of the oil is used at start up when the the cylinders are cold and "wet". Would it help to install a "simple" bypass that can be opened until the cylinders are hot and dry (without running loco, just clearing the cylinders)when the oil will do the most good?


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, 

In actuallty, steam cylinder oil (SCO) has a homogenoious mixture with water to allow the displacement to occur. Harry Wade (among others) covered this in his article on southernsteamtrains.com, under the reference section. SCO contains a lot of tallow (animal fat) which allows it to congeal and create an emulsion that provides a nice film for the piston ring (NOT THE PISTON!!) to ride on in the cylinder. 

That was a little winded, and I may have confused a thing or two, but check out Harry's article *here*.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

David Bailey offers an upgrade to Accucraft lubricators by installing a metering screw. I have this modification on a couple of my engines.


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

I was thinking about when I am on the NH&I and the loco works water to long the cylinders run dry and it takes a large amount of oil to re-lube the cylinders and stop the tell tale grinding of them.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod, 

I have seen David's lubricator mod and love it's conception, but for me, it still doesn't solve the issue of running oil through a superheater. IMHO, only steam should be run through the superheater (steam dryer in our case). 


Bill, 

Excessive water carry-over will certainly flush the oil out! Fortunately, our bronze cylinders are a bit more forgiving, and there is slightly thinner oil being passed through in our engines as well. 



Everyone who is concerned about this, or just gives a hoot: 

See the Informative threads index and look up the lubricator discussion for some good ideas (namely from Torry K and David Bailey).


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Ryan makes more sense to me now. I was thinking the oil was closer to the same as we use but thinner oil would be affected less. Sorry to all this was way off topic.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, 

It's all relevant in some way shape or form. Slightly back on topic, your GS-4 is on the shop table as of tonight, ready for the rebuild!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Long long ago... the main problem identified with Accucraft Lubricator was they simply put out way too much steam oil - the hole in the steam pipe attached to the lubricator was just way too big. I think the first solution to this by Dave Hottmann was a simple restrictor that significantly reduced the amount of steam oil output by the lubricator. I've run a couple of locos where this was done and was surprised at the dramatic drop in steam oil coming out of the stack and the lack of crackle and pop of steam oil hitting the hot stack and burning. 

Others put a piece of wire in the steam pipe hole to reduce the functional area of the hole. Still another used a short piece brass tube with a slit in it that could be enlarged or reduced in di to find the sweet spot that limited the flow of steam oil from the steam pipe hole (th slit ws not positioned at the steam ppe hole). 

The superheater/steam oil problem was found to be primarily a function of the excessive steam oil, so reducing the amount of steam oil also significantly reduce if not eliminated th superhetaer/steam oil problem - the potential of steam oil coking the superheater. Notwithstanding restricting the amount of steam oil, few have reported the coking problem actually happening. I think this can be attributed to the fact that a locomotive rarely stands motionless with the burners cranked up, and in particular when it is standing, even if the burner is turned up, there is no steam flowing because the throttle is closed. Additionally, if the poker burners are converted to radiant burners following Kevin O'Connors design, the sleeve on the burner can be rotated so the radiant flame is angled away from the superheater. If you look at the Informative Threads sticky topic "Solving My Ruby Burner Problems: - 510kb" is shows the radiant burner angling away from the superheater. 

As far as Tallow being a bad component of steam oil, both Harry Wade's article sighted above and Kevin O'Connor article "Notes from the Unit Shop", Kevin O'Connor's advice for the beginning small scale live steamer, "STEAM OIL SELECTION" (also in the Southern Steam Trains Reference section) both refer to 4-6% non-acidic tallow or tallow substitute being a fundamental and necessary component of steam oil. Kevin's specfic advice was, "The grade of recommended steam cylinder oil for these conditions is ISO 460 which contains 4% tallow oil. This is the grade of oil that the “ride-on” locomotive community uses." 

Bypassing the superheater might be an ideal solution, but from reports of 90% of the problem solved simply by significantly reducing, or metering, the steam oil output of the Accucraft factory installed lubricator or installing a metered lubricator the superheater steam oil bypass seems much less necessary (if needed at all), not to mention a considerable amount of extra work for relatively little benefit (5-10%) compared to fixing (or replacing) the lubricator- IMHO. 

Metered lubricators that are a direct or near direct replacement are available from a number of sources: Cole Power Models, PM Research, etc. (If a list of suppliers is needed I can post it with links but I am assuming you are all familiar with the usual suspects.) One particular model of replacement lubricator has what I think is a useful feature, the oil vessel is glass so you can see the oil vs water content. It's been awhile since I searched for them but I believe all of these replacement lubricators have a needle valve through the center of the Lubricator. You will have to make a Tee steam ppe connection to any of these. For comparison, I had a few custom lubricators made for me; they cost over $100 each. The off the shelf variety are around $50-$60. (but that was two years ago so the exchange rate may mean they are higher now.) 

One caveat, the Accucraft lubricator has very thick walls therefore hold a much smaller amount of steam oil than it would appear. A replacement lubricator can be smaller yet contain approximately the same amount of steam oil. With the additional benefit from a metered lubricator saving steam oil, the steam oil will last just as long as the Accucraft lubricator in not much longer. Accucraft has two sizes of lubricators; a smaller one for the Shays, Ruby's and other small locos; and a larger one for the K's, etc. 

Not all C-16's have a dead leg lubricator in the form of a tank under the running board (#268 and I believe one other, maybe Bubble Bee, have standard Accucraft lubricators - I have a Black #268 C-16.) There was a particular thread some time ago on modifying the C-16 dead leg lubricator due to an inherent problem as designed. 

A google search on steam oil will provide the usual long list of articles on the technical aspects of steam oil to complement Harry's and Kevin's writings. they often will be writen with respect to large steam engines (boat, locomotive, etc.) but the info can be valuable. I also seem to remember there is one (or two) particular past thread (from the old MLS archives) entitled something like "What Steam Oil to Use", "Choosing a Steam Oil" or something similar, where Kevin O'Conner and other sages got into the fine details of all this tech stuff on steam oil.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 01/24/2008 8:05 PM
Dave, 

Your forgetting that even if it becomes a metered lubricator, the oil would still be piped through the superheater, which in my book is a BAD thing. Properly, we need a deadleg (metered/unmetered) and a kit to install it so that the oil enters right at the valve chest where it will be most beneficial. Superheated oil just thins out and leads to premature failure and if you meter this, it thins out even more, becoming nothing more than nice blue smoke. Not to mention that a deadleg frees up room in the cab by placing it where an air tank would be in real life (ala the GS-4 and C-16). 

Bottom line: 
If a $2,xxx C-16 can have an OEM deadleg,then why not a $4,xxx K-27/28/36 or for that matter, a slightly more expensive AC-11/12 not have a separate oil feed that comes in right at the valve chest?


Ryan,

  I'm well aware of the problem, and totally agree it's probably not a good thing.. I was thinking more along the lines of an easy lubricator (direct) replacment that most everyone can do without having to solder pipe, finding cones, nuts (with the right thread) and all that stuff that drives most people with limited time (like me) nuts. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif As far as installing a lubricator that attaches to the steam chest... good? yes, but not that easy to install. I've asked Bailey and Torry about this and they both said "we'll need your loco to install that".  Like Chris said, maybe the metered lubricator would limit the amount of colesterol on the superheater vein, there by delaying the eventual heart attack.

 My C-16 (black 268 from the last/newer run) has the standard Accucraft lub setup. I've heard the old style one sucks 50% of the oil out in the first 1 minute of running./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif  I don't know how true that is....Maybe they should look at how Aster did the lub on the Berk instead of giving up on that design....

 I agree, the ultimate solution is for Accucraft to address the problem and install a working system after the superheater tube on future locos (starting with the K-36 )


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 

Once again, a informative and semi-long winded post. However, you are forgetting one important thing. Even if the oil is metered from the cab, it is still exposed to the thermal properties of a red-hot superheater. Once the oil and steam mixture hits this pipe, the thermal properties of the oil change dramatically, and cause the oil to reach it's flash point at low throttle settings. Hence why most engines with pass-through lubricators that flow through a superheater create issues with not only coking of the oil molecules, but thin out the oil to a point where the lubricative properties are near useless. Take for example the o-ring in the piston (another item that should be changed) without oil, or with significantly thinned oil, smoke doesn't lubricate the cylinders, the oil does. A properly lubricated engine should have a slight (very faint) froth of oil in a ring around the stack, the color of creamed coffee, which signifies proper emulsification as the oil leaves the cylinders. 

The accucraft lubricators have a properly sized metering hole, the main issue is that the steam pipe is too low on the side of the lubricator, as opposed to the top and centered, which makes the steam work longer to get the oil above the hole in the pipe. ALL of the original run C-16's (268, 278, and 42) had the deadleg lubricator placed under the running board. The issue with the over consumption of oil was due to the steam pipe being too large in internal diameter, creating an issue with too much oil carryover. 

There is one more article that can be added to the list of SCO articles and that is the one by Mr Bill Petitjean, the owner and founder of Green Velvet oil's. You can find a wealth of information that has been slightly simplified for the common finger-burner. Find the article* here

*Dave,

The I know that it is expecting a lot of those not willing to do aftermarket modifications, but anyone who has some mechanical ability can certainly install a proper working deadleg.  I covered the issue of the C-16 lubricator ^^up there^^.  

Not to bring another issue into this, but 98% of aster engines have deadleg lubricators, not just the Berkshire. 

I'm not concerned with coking up the superheater, as that is the operator's choice.  My BIG concern is the lack of proper "wet" oil going to the cylinders.  Apparently everyine is content with the "plavix" cure of metering the oil, but I want the 4-way bypass surgery.  It it simply a stop gap to meter the oil, as it is still going to be thinned to the flashing point.  

Since this is way off this topic, I will close my thoughts here.  Contact me off-list for ways to alleviate this problem.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, 

Will conatct you off line then...


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