# Keeping it together - Soldering techniques



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I did a search and didn't quite get the answer I need. 

I have the soldering gun, solid core solder etc..... even have a pencil . 

So: How in heck do I keep the wires in place as I heat them up to the point where the solder can be applied? 3 hands? 

I've done two simple wires flat on a piece of wood... press them together with the gun and yes. 

Soldering wire to so connection inside a loco is a new challenge for me. Any ideas? 


gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. make the wiring the mechanical connection, not the solder. This means crimp the wire or put it in a hole. 
2. secure the rest of the wire so it does not move while soldering, tape, clamps, a brick, whatever. Movement during soldering will give you a cold solder joint, which will fail. 
3. you want the thing to be soldered in a place so it does not set fire or burn something else. 
4. Find a friend and have him show you, this is much more easily explained in person. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with what greg said, but sometimes you can't make a mechanical connection. 

Pre-tin each part to be joined--put solder on each part, then bring them together however you can manage with the iron ready to go. Sometimes. It really only takes a second wth most parts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would suggest you find a way to make a mechanical connection, solder WILL fatigue when flexed. 

But, if all else fails, then clamping the wires with a soldering "helper" will do it, or weights on the wires, etc, just make it so they do not move. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Now I get it and I'm not nuts. 

I like the idea of presoldering. and naturally being able to crimp would keep it together. 

I will need to practice ! Anyone want to lend me YOUR locos?







to practice on?????

gg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Sometimes when I'm faced with the challange of soldering a bunch of wires together that I cannot twist together for whatever reason (e.g., too short, or no space), I'll use a clothes pin (or such) to hold them together enough that I can solder them. And yes, it does help to have these wires "pre-tinned" so they are ready to go at the touch of the iron.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I did a quick search on the web under "soldering techniques". Lots of info out there. A bunch of really amateur U-Tube junk, but here is one by Popular Mechanics that illustrates the basics fairly well. How to solder wires

Whenever I have a bunch of wires (like 3 or more) that need to go to the same screw terminal (which will only hold one or two wires at most) I tend to use a "wire nut". Just twist the whole mess together, along with the one wire that will terminate on your screw terminal, and screw on the wire nut. They are easy to use and you can also easily undo the mess if you need to. The downside, is that is usually the failure point. Not a real reliable connection.


For simply splicing two wires together, I usually just use a lap joint (as described above). Just tin both wires, hold one with a 3rd hand device, and hold the other next to the first while you apply heat and solder. No movement while cooling, or you will get a cold solder joint (dull looking). Cover the joint with heat shrink tubing (that you put slipped over one of the wires before soldering). Mechanical joints are much better, but as long as you have a good solder joint (nice and shiny), the lap joints work fine for me. (We aren't putting this solder joint in space).


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

That's it... 

Greg... I need to resolder your locos... 

can you pls lend them to me? 



gg


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Sacrificial wood clothes pins can work (keep water handy to duck them in if needed) or stainless steel hemostats (its difficult to purposely solder stainless). 

-Brian


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

GG states: did a search and didn't quite get the answer I need. 

I have the soldering gun, solid core solder etc..... even have a pencil . 


What is solid core solder? If solder is solid, it would not have a core!!! 

Did you mean rosin core solder? 

I find it easier to solder with the 'older' rosin core solder I have on hand as it has more lead in it and flows at lower temperatures than the 'new' rosin core solder.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 03/14/2009 4:27 AM
GG states: did a search and didn't quite get the answer I need. 

I have the soldering gun, solid core solder etc..... even have a pencil . 


What is solid core solder? If solder is solid, it would not have a core!!! 

Did you mean rosin core solder? 

I find it easier to solder with the 'older' rosin core solder I have on hand as it has more lead in it and flows at lower temperatures than the 'new' rosin core solder.








I got the stuff with no liquid in it ... rosin...


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

For soldering wires, you want resin core solder, often called electrical solder.


1. Fasten the wires together securely so they don't move.


2. Heat the wires till the wire is hot enough to melt the solder.


3. Touch the solder to the wire away from the iron. It will flow toward the heat.


If your piece of solder, or your iron sticks to the wire, you don't have a big enough iron. 


If the solder rolls off the wire or forms beads on it, your wire isn't clean, or solderable with the resin.


If the wires wiggle before the solder freezes, you'll get a "cold" joint and the solder will look dull and rough. This is not good.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

GG

Wire solder comes in many sizes (i.e. diameter), also various alloys of lead, tin & antimony etc. Most but not all wire solder for electrical and/or electronic use is manufactured with rosin or resin contained in the core of the wire, which is used as the flux...

e.g. five-core solder 









Rosin-Core leaves a nice clean finish on your joints on pc boards where Resin-Core leaves blobs of solder flux. Resin core is for wires and coil lugs that may be less than perfectly clean and the resin aids in bonding the solder like flux.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Gents, lots of information and thanks: 

I went down to my trustworthy tool box and can confirm that I bought Rosin Cor Silver Bearing Solder - 0.022" 

Bit of background: I was prepping my 14 gauge wire and mounting banana plugs. Despite minutes of heat gun I really could not get the wire connection to melt the solder...









So; I went to the garage and pulled out my lead crimper and 5 minutes later I had a perfect mechanical joint.









So I need to practice that get the techniques that you outline above down pat. 

thanks for the support. 


gg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

GG

How about the tip of your soldering gun/iron, clean and well tinned? If not you'll have poor heat transfer.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Just heat scored: 

Should I "tin" it with solder? 

gg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

By all means the tip of your soldering gun or iron should be 'tinned'. Do that by filing until the copper is shiny. No one said, and it's fairly a personal choice, but I always have a square can of rosin flux to hand, here's why: once your iron's tip is shiny brite copper, you start heating it. It will tend to oxidize as it heats, so stick it in the can of flux. (As soon as smoke starts to come off the tip, you know it's getting near to soldering heat. Keep tip fluxed. Then dab your solder onto it, until it takes. Dab a big enough glob to shake it off and leave a soldery-looking tip.

Another reason to keep the tin of flux handy is, your iron/gun will tend to collect ash while in use, you can stick it in the solder tin (paste) and wipe it on a mildly damp rag or sponge and keep right on going until it's time to tin it again, which should be hours and hours.

Also, lots of new solderers don't use a big enough iron or gun. If you're doing 14ga wire, you want ~ a 100watt iron minimum--and I'd go bigger-- with a fair-sized tip, because the wire connection sucks heat out of the tip, and you need the 'thermal mass' so to speak. If using a gun, you need a bigger one so the tip gets hotter.

Les


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes sir, the term "tinning" when used in reference to soldering means to coat with a thin coat of solder. However, only after making sure that you've cleaned it well. Be careful with what you choose to clean the tip with. If it's a plated tip (and today most tips are) and you use something that is too abrasive you will destroy the plating, which in turn will severely shorten the useful life of the tip. Because the tin in the solder and flux over time will corrode the copper. Also, if you have a temperature control use the lowest temperature you can to get the job done, the higher the temperature the faster oxidation. Correct tip maintenance becomes an even more important issue with the introduction of lead-free solders. Higher temperatures and higher tin content solders will be more damaging and corrosive, leading to shorter tip life.

Most soldering tips are made of copper and then plated with iron, which in turn is plated with nickle or chrome except on the wedge shaped end which remains bare iron (solder won't stick to nickle or chrome). To keep the bare iron from oxidizing is why the tip needs to be tinned and kept clean. In my experience most of the trouble with soldering comes from the user failing to properly clean up the soldering iron/gun after use.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Solder containing silver has a higher melting point than solder without silver. It is used for high quality and RF. Most osciloscopes used silver solder for all connections.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I hold wires steady for soldering with one of these: 










http://www.micromark.com/TRIPLE-GRIP-THIRD-HAND,6736.html


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

that depends on how much sliver is in it ......


stanard 60/40 tin lead solder melts at 361 to 374 degrees


if you use 62/36/2 tin lead sliver it melts at 354 - 372 degrees


or you can use 63/37 tin lead that melts at 361 degrees ( this is what I use on stuff I need to get in and out on in a hurry)


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Pete...a third hand helps a lot when soldering, especially soldering small wires. Here's the one I have... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65779

I like the big magnifier and light.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 03/14/2009 9:46 PM
In my experience most of the trouble with soldering comes from the user failing to properly clean up the soldering iron/gun after use.






Right on, right on. I never use plated tips, FWIW, having learned/been taught the correct way to clean & maintain a tip, and how to solder by my father. To me, they're a source of aggravation, but then, maybe I'm just old 'n set in my ways.









Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All the temperature controlled irons I have use plated tips, I use Hako and Hexacon soldering systems. I normally run about 800-850 degrees. I find plated tips will last years with proper care. 

In my opinion, the $100 investment, once maybe every 10 or 20 years is worth it in terms of the ease of use, and higher quality joints. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Maybe I missed this: How do I clean my tip in preparation for "tinning"?

thx


gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, you missed it, I completely agree with Steve C's excellent post, I do exactly as he does (I thought I was the only person so anal about soldering!).

Go back and re-read it... clean tip, flux, solder....

Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

Sad to say, I do too--nowadays. I got mine at Harbor Frt, comes with a magnafying glass. (That makes it tip over if you're not careful.)

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Greg

Everything you say about the high-$ units is accurate. Whether they give 'higher quality' joints is debatable. At any rate, it doesn't take a $100 unit to solder satisfactorily, and for a noob to go lay down that kind of money when a $1 Weller from a garage sale, properly used will get the job done, isn't really necessary.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Mike,

That's the one I use, too. I had to take the magnifier off because I wear glassess and the weird effects you sometimes get when looking through two sets of optics made me dizzy. I use the clamp-on head magnifiers w. light, also from H.F.

Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, they do not guarantee better joints, but with a regulated tip temperature, it's harder to do something wrong. Also, when the tip temperature is regulated, they don't "burn the tip" when sitting idle. 

You can do a perfectly good job with an unregulated iron, but my point was that a beginner would have an easier time with one, and would thus make more "high quality" joints. 

Old hacks like us could probably solder with a cigarette lighter. and a piece of copper rod. 

Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

You use a cigarette lighter?

Why, I spin the copper very fast between my palms, tip of same in a conical hole in a piece of hardwood. For lower heat, I use softer wood.









Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I gotta admit Les, you got me beat!









I always get splinters when I use wood!

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You don't just eat some mild chili and burp?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

And be mistaken for a Live Steamer? I don't _think_ so, Tim.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

LOL

I will try spinning my copper with a cigarette lighter.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/15/2009 3:23 PM
And be mistaken for a Live Steamer? I don't _think_ so, Tim.













Well, I did specify "mild chili"... I mean, it ain't like you're trying to weld titanium!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/15/2009 3:44 PM
Posted By Les on 03/15/2009 3:23 PM
And be mistaken for a Live Steamer? I don't _think_ so, Tim.













Well, I did specify "mild chili"... I mean, it ain't like you're trying to weld titanium!
















Never mind welding--what I was thinking of is how you guys bring those boilers up to pressure!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

GG

You stated in your origination reply that you had both a soldering pencil (i.e. iron) and a soldering gun. In either case the process is the same.
[*] First, on either tool do they exhibit the typical signs of "burn out"?
[*] The tip has a black or dark brown oxide scale type coating on its working area, or...
[*] When heated you have a problem with 'wetting' the tip with solder.
[/list] [/list] 
If the answer to either of the above queries is yes, then...
[*] Heat the iron/gun to soldering temperature.
[*] Flush the working area with a rosin activated flux cored solder.
_(Make sure the diameter of the solder wire is large enough to provide enough flux)_
[*] Wipe the tip on a moistened man-made cellulose sponge.
_(It's best to use distilled water to moisten the sponge. Although there is mounting evidence that since the change to "lead-free" solders, which require higher temperatures and a more active flux, "dry-cleaning" (No, it's not what you thinking







) the tip is a better choice. You can purchase them from soldering equipment manufactures (very pricey), or you can make one yourself. Next time you're in the grocery store look for a coiled ribbon stainless steel pot scrubber and buy it. When you get home find a small heat resistant container to stuff the scrubber into it, you've just made a soldering tip "dry-cleaner." To clean the tip when needed, either wipe the tip across the "dry-cleaner" or poke the tip into it. For the most part solder doesn't stick to stainless steel very well so you'll find the solder collects in the bottom or you can take the scrubber out and shake it when needed.)_
[*] Once again flush the tip with a fresh thick coating of rosin cored solder.
[*] If the solder wets the tip and remains bright and shiny, you're in business. If not then repeat the above process a few more times.
[*] If the above fails to correct the problem.
[*] Then the tip may be beyond re-conditioning.
[*] As a last resort you can try cleaning the tip (i.e. while hot) using a brass bristle brush or emory paper, and then try the above process again.
[*] If all else fails get a new tip, but make sure that the first thing you do when you first heat the tip up is tin it well, and when you're finished soldering clean the tip and flush it with a thick coating of fresh solder, then turn it off and let it cool down.
[/list] [/list] The reason that you have to be careful about not destroying the tip's plating. Is because when two dissimilar metals are placed in contact with each other and heated the less active metal (i.e. copper) will be invaded by the more active metal (i.e. tin). Therefore tin will begin to replace copper at soldering temperatures, eating away at the tip (i.e. the tip becomes corroded and pitted); hence it is common practice to plate the tips with a more active metal. Iron and nickel are higher on the activity scale than tin, so are useful for plating soldering tips

Example of the stainless steel pot scrubber.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/15/2009 2:52 PM
_{snip...}_ Old hacks like us could probably solder with a cigarette lighter. and a piece of copper rod. _{snip...}_
Heck, when out in the field I've soldered wires together by pounding the solder thin wrapping it around the wires and heating them with a match, but then again I've also been known to heat my C-rations by burning a small lump of C4 too. Ya' do what ya' got to do to get it done.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks Steve, 

My equipment is new. Just used once on the 14 gauge soldering event which didn't work. heat sink too big. 

I will condition per your instructions. 


Still waiting for Greg's Locos so that I can practice on them












gg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By GG on 03/15/2009 12:54 PM
Maybe I missed this: How do I clean my tip in preparation for "tinning"?

thx


gg 



I use a damp sponge to wipe it on and clean it off. Then apply fresh solder to thouroughly coat the tip and shake off the excess. Voila!

Do this at various times during your work to keep the tip clean.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 03/15/2009 5:00 PM
{snip...}[/i] My equipment is new. Just used once on the 14 gage soldering event which didn't work. heat sink too big. {snip...}[/i]
GG

I find it curious that you had a problem with 14 ga. wire using a soldering gun. Nowhere within any of your replies have you mentioned the wattage rating of your soldering gun, just for curiosities sake what is it?

Don't take the following the wrong way, I'm not trying to imply that you've done anything wrong, but new/old equipment really doesn't matter, it only takes a few minutes to destroy a brand new soldering tip if things are done wrong (don't ask how I'm so sure of this







).


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Steve , I am travelling this week and will take a closer look at my iron when I get back home. 

Thanks for the help

gg


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