# Nickle plated rail



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey again, 

From my teenage HO days, I vaguely recall certain things. But now that I'm back into these matters, I find often that either my recollections are wrong, or that new large scale issues obviate them. So here goes...


This is my first build, and I'm going track power / DCC. I've de-scoped my 2011 trackage in order to afford the nickle plated, and these are the reasons why: 
- I can solder to nickle-plated as easily as brass, right? 
- Unlike brass, it's almost non-oxidizing, right?
- The brass core makes it an excellent conductor, right?
- The nickle plating won't fall off, right?

I know these may be stupid questions, but if I'm wrong in my assumptions, please comment! 

Best regards,
Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Solder almost as easily 

Yes, almost non-oxidizing 

yes brass is an excellent conductor. 

the plating does not usually fall off. Poor plating can peel, and there have been examples of this, also thin plating, which you cannot determine. I'm talking LGB nickel plated. This has been documented. 

No negative reports whatsoever on Train-Li / Train Line 45 nickel plated. 

Be aware that you should NOT use any abrasive track cleaning devices, the plating is just that, a plating. Scotchbrite only when needed would be my recommendation. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

CJ 

The HO track you remember was solid nickel silver, not nickel plated brass. If you want to be sure that the plating doesn't disappear, you should use solid NS rail. Then abrasives do not really matter. My oxidized NS rail needs to be cleaned because of all the black walnut tree goo that ends up on it, not because the oxides of NS do not conduct. Of course, nickel silver is an alloy of brass and contains NO silver. 

From Wikipedia: 
Nickel silver, also known as German silver, paktong, new silver , " Nickel Brass" or alpacca (or alpaca), is a copper alloy with nickel and often zinc. The usual formulation is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc.[1] In fact, all modern, commercially important nickel silvers (such as those standardized under ASTM B122) contain significant amounts of zinc, and are sometimes considered a subset of brass.[2] 

Nickel silver is named for its silvery appearance, but contains no elemental silver unless plated. Early in the twentieth century, German silver was used by automobile manufacturers before the advent of steel sheet metal, i.e., the famous Rolls Royce Silver Ghost of 1907. 

Regards


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, such quick responses, thank you gentlemen. 

I hadn't thought through the plating / abrasive aspect, thanks Greg. It's great to know that the nickel plating accepts the solder well, and that the Train Li rail holds up. But it's disappointing to realize that those rail won't be as impervious as I was assuming. 

And thanks for the formula and background info Jim. Good to know. I thought it was the silver content that made it easy to solder to, but there you go. And I sure didn't know that the HO rails were solid. 

Greg, I thought you said somewhere there you would have preferred to go with "nickel-" something rail, and (thanks to your and Jim's input) I now see that I was confusing solid NS with nickel plated. Which might you have been referring to? And would you favor the Ni plated over brass? 

Mainly, I want to avoid at least most of the cleaning. So I'm planning on Train Li's nickel plated, mainly because of the quality of their switches, and wanted to be consistent. 

However, if there's a strong likelihood that I'll lose that plating over the years, I might as well save a bunch of bucks and go brass. I'd hate to do that though.... but now you've got me thinking... Train Li doesn't do stainless as I recall, I won't go Aristo here, and I'm not confident enough to plan on handlaying... 

See, there's always a good reason to vet one's assumptions up here!! 

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Now, why did my reply post three times? With no way to delete the redundant ones?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 06 Feb 2011 02:01 PM 
Now, why did my reply post three times? With no way to delete the redundant ones? 
Now ya see 'em, now ya don't.







No sir, I don't know why either, but I can get rid of them.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliffy, if you can afford to consider going the nickel-plated brass route, then you can also afford to go stainless steel all the way through. It's harder to join, that's true, but there ARE SS rail clamps. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); No matter what the other guys say about you Steve, I think you're a pretty good guy and very much on the ball.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Huh... now my Happy Face isn't showing up, and a bunch of gobbletygook is... 
So I'll try it the old fashion way:


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By tacfoley on 06 Feb 2011 02:54 PM 
Cliffy, if you can afford to consider going the nickel-plated brass route, then you can also afford to go stainless steel all the way through. It's harder to join, that's true, but there ARE SS rail clamps. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund 
I would be OK with the clamping, even with the special clamp-wire-tie-in's, but where are the pre-built and reliable SS turnouts? I've bought samples of Aristo's and Train Li's, and there's no comparison. So no Aristo. But do you know of a different source? I'm all ears, because it's the turnout costs that are driving my budget, and therefore decisions.

Thanks Dude, but please respond,
=== Cliff


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a suggestion, one for both nickel silver and brass track, that I learned from back in my HO scale days: 

Take a couple of drops of Wahl Clipper Oil (or Bachmann conducting oil seems to work as easily) on each railhead, run the locomotive around the track. I have a circle of 10' diameter Aristocraft track, with two 5' sections of straight track as a temporary "layout" and I did that when it was new, and I've never cleaned the track. Ever. In four years outside. And I have no problems with conductivity at all, even in slow speed operation. You do have to add a drop or two, oh, every year or so, and definitely don't over do it (although you can just wipe it off if you do). 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dr. Rivet, Cliff may well be remembering nickel silver rail, but he is asking about nickel plated rail, pure nickel, nothing to do whatsoever with nickel silver. Nickel is an element. 

I prefer stainless steel, because over time, there will be some abrasion. I run scotchbrite around the layout which is mildly abrasive and picks up dead ants, bugs, tree sap, etc. 

I am sure that nickel plating on the Train Li products is of superior quality. How long it lasts? Well, there is not a lot of experience out there, it was made by LGB for a while and they had some quality issues, and also warned not to use there motorized track cleaning loco on it. 

If I remember correctly, Axel has some layouts with the nickel plated brass rail that are "high mileage", I would look to him for testimonials. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg 

Sorry. I was not trying to confuse the issue, just clarify there is a distinct difference. Based on my experience with other plated rail products in smaller scales [read O], I just wanted Cliff to consider his decision carefully since track is always one of the most expensive and most enduring parts of a railroad. A choice that is not well considered can have long range effects for years.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That seems like a great idea, Robert. I'm surprised that it keeps the oxide off that well, but it makes sense if that oily barrier remains intact. What sort of climate do you live in? Wet or dry? 

Guys, is it worth the extra cost of the plating, since it's susceptible to abrasion and since, per Robert, an oil coating might eliminate the bulk of cleaning issues? 

It would be a huge savings to go back to brass in my budget. 

But I'd go with SS if you could point me to a reliable, price-comparable alternative that didn't require me to be a craftsman-metalworker -- at least not this year!  Again, I'm all ears on that, too. 

Thanks very much for your help, 

===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right Jim, and that distinction will most likely need to be voiced many times in the future too! 

(Of course I have gotten on Axel's case, because the product is often advertised as "Nickel" only, not "Nickel Plated Brass"... so the confusion, I will most certainly agree is likely. 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I use Axel's of Train-li Nickle Plated brass 8ft flex rail for all the curves on my layout (240 ft), as well as Train-Li's nickle plated brass R7 and R3 Proline switches for all my switches. 

I also use the Train-li Nickle Plated Pro line rail clamps and highly reccomend them for their great conductivity, strength and ease of use.

I run very long and heavy trains for long perionds and have not noticed any wear issues in the six months the track has been down.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, all good reports, but 6 months of use is really a drop in the bucket for the expected lifetime of track, I think people would like to hear a 5 year report at the least. That's the data I would want if considering the product. 

But, I am curious as to what type of track cleaning procedure/products you use Ron. 

(Of course with no trees or anything else over the layout, I would wager your efforts must be minimal, it looks like you live in the middle of a big green belt).. 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Greg I'll send myself an email to remind me to write a review in 4 1/2 years







, but so far I see no signs of the Nickel plating wearing at all even with the GG1 monster roaring around the layout at proper speeds







.

I haven't had to clean the track at all as of yet either, but them again like you said I have no trees or other debris causing issues on my layout. 

I have not seen any signs of oxidation or the like yet either.

Axel said just to wipe it down once in awhile with a damp cloth to removed any excess dirt from the rails, but haven't even down that yet.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Well, now I'm rethinking everything... And yes Jim, it's a far-reaching, costly and permanent decision, so thanks for your input, because I really don't want to screw this up! 

Here is how my decision progression has gone thus far: 

- A big issue for me has been the tightness of the track plan. I started out planning on Aristo Wide Radius (5'R) turnouts, not wishing to go below that radius because of experience shared here. 
- I was really bummed that no one made #5's, that would have fit in nicely. 
- I learned that #6's wouldn't fit in most places. 
- Wanting fewer derailments (per a prior thread), I've been avoiding #4's for the mainline. 
- So that made me like the R3 (~4'R) & R7 (~7'R) turnouts from Train Li, because their geometry seemed better suited. 
- I even bought samples, and carefully measured them. 
- Per your web site Greg, I'd gone with "nickel" track in the budget 
- But I didn't comprehend the big diff between nickel plating and solid nickel silver. THANKS JIM and GREG! 
- Anyway, I just went to your site Greg, saw the mention of SwitchCrafters at the bottom of your track page, went there, and low and behold, their NS turnouts are much cheaper than what I was budgeting for! 
- But, theirs are #4 and #6. 
- So I'm back to the geometry issues, and facing handlaying. Which might be cool. 
- Anyway, I just emailed SwitchCrafters for some dimensions.
- And you can bet I'm doing a what-if in my budget spreadsheet! 

Geometrically, I'll see if I can pull things off with #4's and #6's. I was planning on using R7's on the mainline, and R3's only on spur / yard situations, so maybe it will work out ok anyway? We'll see. 

Some other comments, after visiting the SwitchCrafter's site: 
- SwitchCrafter's offerings in brass aren't nearly as broad as their NS products, so there's no point in going brass with them... ? 
(just emailed them) 
- I LOVE the fact that they offer curved switches as standard products, and publish the prices! -- that would open up SO much geometry for me, in my tight space! And they're (reasonably) cheap! 
- They offer EaseZ air turnout motors, but I doubt that they can fulfill that offer... unless something's changed? Just curious. 
(just emailed them again) 
- I'm fine with re-thinking for code 250 (vs. 332), haven't bought any of it yet 

If you don't mind, here are a few more questions. 
- Back to soldering (that was my main question to initially post, my how things change course with extra education!), you can solder to nickel-silver rail, correct? 
- Anyone have quality comments for SC turnouts? 
- Or alternate ideas for pre-made turnouts? Maybe in SS? 
- If you don't like how long the curve's tangent is for a #6, can you chop it at the tangency and continue the arc? If not, why not? 
- Any extra things I should watch out for here?

Best regards, I owe everyone a beer, 
===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff, been so many posts, I want to make sure I did not forget the situation: track power or battery, (I assume track). 

You can actually solder to ANY type of rail, including stainless. brass is real easy and so is nickel silver. Nickel and SS are tougher, but the right flux, enough heat, and cleanliness will make it happen. 

If you are debating over brass vs. nickel silver, I think you may find that there is not a lot of difference in how much "oxide removal" you need. I know all the stuff that says NS oxide is conductive, but it's really not conductive enough to make it so you never remove the oxide. 

Now again, different climates will have different results. The one thing you can count on is that nickel-plated and stainless will never need "sanding" to remove oxide no matter where you live. Brass and NS will in most climates, and in some climates, they are virtually unusable for track power (brass oxidized on one day at my place, requiring cleaning) 

the #6 refers to the frog angle.. the other lengths, like the distance before the frog, and the distance of the short "frog rails" and how far the stock rails extend "past the frog" are all variable. 

To make matters worse, some turnouts have a continuous curve through the diverging path, and others are "Straight" past the frog (as in the prototype). 

I would recommend spending the $99 for RR-Track or some other track planning software, even if the Train-Li turnouts or the SC ones are not in the library (which has Aristo and LGB). You will learn a lot about "what if". 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg,
I'm trying to take a deep breath, but it's fairly rocking my boat that SC has Y's and curved switches in solid NS that are less than the price I was budgeting for...
So, lotsa replanning on my end. So far, it seems that by going with SC, solid NS and code 250, I'll save about $500 for next year's build. Probably sounds silly, but I'm actually selling off rolling stock on ebay to afford the switches in my hoped-for sidings. 
Just have to work out the geometry. Bruce from SC just sent me the STEP files, so I'll try to open them in Solidworks tomorrow and see what I can see. For starters, his verbals on radii seem to work well with my track plan.
The main advantage that I'm seeing with SC is that they offer those Y's and curved switches, for about the same price as regular ones. That's the huger game-changer for me, because those will open up all kinds of geometry in my limited space.
Thanks everyone for bearing with me,
===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Feb 2011 05:03 PM 
Cliff, been so many posts, I want to make sure I did not forget the situation: track power or battery, (I assume track). 

You can actually solder to ANY type of rail, including stainless. brass is real easy and so is nickel silver. Nickel and SS are tougher, but the right flux, enough heat, and cleanliness will make it happen. 

If you are debating over brass vs. nickel silver, I think you may find that there is not a lot of difference in how much "oxide removal" you need. I know all the stuff that says NS oxide is conductive, but it's really not conductive enough to make it so you never remove the oxide. 

Now again, different climates will have different results. The one thing you can count on is that nickel-plated and stainless will never need "sanding" to remove oxide no matter where you live. Brass and NS will in most climates, and in some climates, they are virtually unusable for track power (brass oxidized on one day at my place, requiring cleaning) 

the #6 refers to the frog angle.. the other lengths, like the distance before the frog, and the distance of the short "frog rails" and how far the stock rails extend "past the frog" are all variable. 

To make matters worse, some turnouts have a continuous curve through the diverging path, and others are "Straight" past the frog (as in the prototype). 

I would recommend spending the $99 for RR-Track or some other track planning software, even if the Train-Li turnouts or the SC ones are not in the library (which has Aristo and LGB). You will learn a lot about "what if". 

Regards, Greg 
Thanks Greg, 

Yes, track power, all DCC. 

As for oxidation, I had a little trouble following what you said. By "make it," did you mean make it to conductivity, or make it to never needing to remove the oxide? 

So, solid NS rail will need "sanding"? I thought the whole point in solid NS was reduced cleaning? Didn't you say that on your site?

Not trying to be a smart a$$, just highly suspect of my interpretations these days and wanting to better understand what you've said.

As for geometry, well, that's kind of a sore point with me. Please permit me to vent for a moment. Not at you of course, just in general.

About a year ago, I started a thread on switch geometry, and got nowhere... yes, I understand the diverging angles, and so on; but very few manufacturers publish the actual dimensions. I got criticized here for worrying about millimiters, when the geometric reality was (and is) a difference of FEET. Believe me, I've emailed EVERY ONE of the switch manufacturere for dimensions, and the only guy who didn't blow me off was Axel. In a tight layout like I'm planning, it's a matter of (for example) abandoning something important just because a tangent leg is longer than it had to be, or a radius was tighter than everyone agrees to be the minimum. 

Anyway, Bruce of SC has kindly sent my some CAD files to chew on. So I'll be getting back with you all tomorrow on the results.

Sorry for sounding cranky... don't mean to be, it's just that all my track plan seems to be changing, as a result of that dumb first question about soldering...









I recall the line from Sayers: "Facts are like cows, if you ignore them enough, they will generally walk away."

For me, the opposite seems to be true: "Things of interest are like flies. If you stare at them long enough, they will grow bigger and become cows."

Best regards, and of course I appreciate the conversation and your experience,
===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, to clarify, while it has been stated for years that the NS oxidation is conductive, my personal experience and feedback from others, is that even if it is conductive, it does not appear that this characteristic eliminates "oxidation removal", i.e. you still have to abrade NS track to remove oxide for most people. 

Sorry to make that sentence ambiguous. 

You do not sound cranky in the least. The more planning the better the result. I shoehorned my layout into my back yard, and the extra effort in planning and design tools was well worth the effort. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I have nickel silver Llagas Creek rail, I have never heard of nickel plated rail until this post string. Who makes it and why would you want it, nickel silver is easy to solder, easy to work, looks great when it weathers and the oxidation is conductive.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to add to my list of people who have used NS outdoors, Dan, do you have track or battery power, and if you have track power, how often do you clean the track and with what? 

Nickel plating does not oxidize at all, basically, pretty much like SS in terms of never having to remove oxidation. 

I did not experience "zero oxidation" in HO with NS, and I did have to use an abrasive block to clean the oxidation. 

Never used it in Large Scale. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 07 Feb 2011 08:24 PM 
I have nickel silver Llagas Creek rail, I have never heard of nickel plated rail until this post string. Who makes it and why would you want it, nickel silver is easy to solder, easy to work, looks great when it weathers and the oxidation is conductive. 
Hi Dan, here's the link:

http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/a...54_29.html


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just a little update. I've been examining Bruce's (of SwitchCrafters) files, and it looks like the #4 is ~midway between the R3 & R7, so it might really work for me. 

Anyone out there have any quality comments on SwitchCrafter turnouts?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On my page, I have the LGB frog numbers:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...a-switches* 


By measurement, the Train-Li R7 turnout is much closer to the LGB R5 switch, in the area of frog number. The Train-Li is between 5.25 and 5.5, so a #4 is reasonable for use.

(There is no LGB R7, nor does the extrapolation of the LGB sizes from R5 to an R7 match the curvature of the Train-Li turnout... not trying to rag on Train-Li, but trying to keep misunderstandings down)


Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, that table you did must have taken you quite a while. I know mine did! Are you an engineer?

If so, you'll appreciate this. I've been having such a great time in the last couple of hours, opening up Bruce's .stp files in SolidWorks, exporting the geometry to AutoCad, dimensioning the results, and seeing that these products will really work. So I'm making a template set of blocks, and am planning on re-doing the whole she-bang -- but this time with the luxury of wye's and curved switches, which before SC I could have never afforded. 

Thanks Bro, you posted that link! 

But I'm still waiting for some other shoe to drop, like, their ties don't hold the spikes, or SC has their stuff manufactured in Egypt, or...







I did just read a GR review article from 2008, and the SC products were favorably reviewed.

Still waiting on a post from someone who's used them, though, and seen them hold up after a period of years. 

Regardless, if someone speaks up, I'll post some diagrams of their product geometry. So far, I've done the straight and wye versions of #4 and #6, and am waiting for Bruce to shoot me the models of the smaller curved turnouts.

Having too much fun, but my darling wife is getting impatient... seems like the kids wanna eat, or something like that...
===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, an engineer, guilty as charged. What took a long time was getting the correct data, many sites have the LGB radii wrong, and it seems many copied the wrong data. I finally tracked down a number of LGB documents and got enough agreement between them to feel confident I had correct data... it's tougher than it sounds. 

I have not heard anything negative about SwitchCrafters except delivery can sometimes take a while. Since you are going to make a significant investment, why not call them up and talk to the owner? I talked to him on another topic (storage elevator system). He was REALLY nice on the phone and very helpful. (and yes, I believe he is an engineer too). 

If I remember right, their ties are a composite material, and that should be good outdoors, looks a bit like wood, but UV resistant. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes, Bruce has been extremely responsive. I've been giving him a barrage of questions over the last few days, kinda like I do here, and he's been answering most of them. Which I'm very grateful for. 

I guess what I'm trying to get used to is the idea of a more hand-crafted product, vs. the more mass-produced, machine-made (an over-simplification, but I'm not sure how to say it without ticking someone off). The Train Li turnout I have in my hand is very precision-looking and -feelling, with cast-in tie plates and carefully wired rails. The SC products are hand-spiked into composite ties, which (with their wood fiber content) might be susceptible to moisture over time. Don't know. 

However, Bruce told me that his turnouts have been in service for 6 years. And from the pics, I really like the true guard rails (not cast plastic), and the obvious care taken with the spiking and soldering. Not sure though about his microswitches; he's really pushing battery-op, not a good indicator that he's worked those issues through, but obviously I don't know. 

I'm thinking that I should stay with the DCC Proline switch machines, and use their aux contacts for power switching (which they say can be done). 

Anyway, thanks for fessing up Greg about the engineer-thing. I too have, in my limited experience, felt the pain and confusion of LGB geometry, so my hat's off to you for going as far as you did. I figured that only an engineer would enjoy that process in and of itself, in order to be that exhuastive! 

Along that line, I've concluded my Acad block creation of the SC turnout centerlines, and am looking forward to messing with my track plan this weekend to see what they (especially the curved switches) do to it. 

Best regards, 

====Cliff


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, all I have is live steam. I do know people who have Llagas Creek nickel silver and track power. They say they don't have to clean it unless there are leaves, bird droppings or other such things on it, the actual rail does not need cleaning.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 09 Feb 2011 10:08 PM 
Greg, all I have is live steam. I do know people who have Llagas Creek nickel silver and track power. They say they don't have to clean it unless there are leaves, bird droppings or other such things on it, the actual rail does not need cleaning. 
Years ago we purchased Nickel SIlver track from I believe Old Pullman in Florida for our tunnels. It does indeed need much less cleaning then brass. The problem is that in the spring it has a larger layer of corrosion that is non conductive and needs more work then brass to clean. I suspect it is the extra dampness in the tunnels that is the cause.

As we upgrade the layout this track is being replaced by Stainless Steel track. The last tunnel with Nickel Silver track will be replaced likely this fall.

Stan


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Over the years, I have polled many users of nickel silver track, brass track, and aluminum track under track power. 

Besides the few people who seem to live in Eden where nothing oxidizes, and people like me who have it oxidize overnight, the average person needs to clean both brass and NS on a regular basis. I also have found that there was not a great overall difference in all maintenance because of the situation Stan mentioned above... maybe there are 2 stages in NS track, light oxidation which may be conductive or better conductive than brass, and a heavier problem. I've seen NS basically corrode into grey-white stuff. 

So, as I always say, your environment may be different than most. If you want to guarantee no oxidation or corrosion, then try stainless steel or nickel plated track. 

You could also do what I did, is buy 3 different manufacturers of brass track, made a small (read inexpensive, no large committment) loop and see what happens. I made 10' diameter circle of H&R trains SS steel that actually sat where it got hit with sprinklers each day, and an oval with LGB, USAT, and Aristo brass. 

I had to clean the brass basically every 24 hours, 48 hours required my LGB track cleaning loco or very vigorous scrubbing. My stainless steel circle of track was never cleaned. 

I have all stainless now. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If you are looking at NS track you might check out a product called Rail Zip. 
I used it on my On3 track, instead of cleaning off the oxides, it makes it more conductive. 
I just googled it to make sure it was still around, it is. One site claimed it was for the Advanced Collector...which made little sense as it helps the choo choos go! Besides what collector would risk oil stains in their pretty little boxes? 

I liked the application.... a couple of drops on the rail heads and run trains! 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, I think you will find Wahl clipper "oil" (it's not an oil) will do the same thing, also popular in HO and even smaller scales. 

Theory seems to be the same, small amount of fluid that keeps oxygen away from the metal. 

That said, I hope we don't derail this thread into track cleaning, boy that's a big topic! 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

But Greg! The man said he wanted to do his home work and I just wanted to help touch another base! ha ha. 
I don't think it's the same as Wahl...which might be closer to WD-40. 
I tried the snake (smoke) oil on my SS and will never do that again! I have grades! 

The railroads had track walkers to make sure the right of way was good, track cleaning could be prototypical! I know I walk mine just to clear flange ways.... 

I do appreciate not wanting to side track or heaven forbid derail! Gasp! hee hee, but track cleaning and oxides were previously mentioned, besides which the Rail Zip is a treatment vs cleaning. 

John


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Just for my clarification...

A while back Aristo did some nickel-silver rails (flexrail, as opposed to "panel-track") Is this the type of rail I'm going to need to clean? And here I thought I'd bought the good stuff based on the idea that NS didn't require cleaning...

Think I'm gonna layout my trolley line tomorrow and see what happens between now and spring. That will be the key. I was going to use it for the track-powered RC kids' trains and the trolley.
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As I always try to make really clear, some people can have great luck, others ok, and then others will have the experience that Stan had. (or worse) 

No one can guarantee anything on brass or NS rail. You can pretty much guarantee the performance of SS or Nickel plated rail (although guaranteeing that the plating is not going to wear through has to be based on experience, remember the problems with early LGB nickel plated?). 

With a good warranty, I would not worry about plated track. 

That's my clearest answer. If you are concerned, then your idea to make a small investment and a "test track" is the smartest path in my opinion. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Huh. 

Well, let's see if I have this straight... 

-- If NS can corrode "into white-gray stuff"... 
-- and requires as much cleaning as brass... 
-- And SwitchCrafters doesn't offer SS, but they do some in aluminum... 
-- But I need track power, and I've seen aluminum turn into white-gray stuff... 
-- But they do some turnouts in brass, but only in limited configurations... 
-- And Train Li offers only brass and nickel plated... 
-- But the plating will abrade if I clean it too much... 
-- And Llagas doesn't mention squat on their web site... 
-- And, though they offer SS, SVRR's #4 turnouts are way too tight (R40") for any mainline...
-- But their #6's are way too big (R90") for my tight space... 
-- And why they don't offer anything in-be-frickin'-tween is way beyond me... 
-- And no one offers something in SS in ~5' radius except AristoCraft (wide radius), but those don't hold up at all...

Well, you've all given me a lot of good information, gentlemen. 

For now, the simplest solution for me is to crack open a beer or two  

===Cliff


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Vodka would be better for you

at this point.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I think you're right, Nicholas!


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Cliff the Nickle Plated Brass track that Axel sells is VERY VERY tough. 
It Doesn't require cleaning like brass or nickle silver track as it does NOT oxidise like brass, nickle silver and aluminum do. 
In order to remove the plating you'll need to be cleaning it with a Grinding Wheel. 

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

-- If NS can corrode "into white-gray stuff"... 
>>> could, but may not -- and requires as much cleaning as brass... 
>>> a little less, in most cases -- And SwitchCrafters doesn't offer SS, but they do some in aluminum... 
>>> stay away from aluminum for track power -- But I need track power, and I've seen aluminum turn into white-gray stuff... 
>>>yep -- But they do some turnouts in brass, but only in limited configurations... 
>>> then pass -- And Train Li offers only brass and nickel plated... 
>>> nickel plate is fine -- But the plating will abrade if I clean it too much... 
>>> you will have to just be careful with cleaning, no sandpaper, just scotchbrite -- And Llagas doesn't mention squat on their web site... 
>>> main page says "Rail materials"... aluminum or NS -- And, though they offer SS, SVRR's #4 turnouts are way too tight (R40") for any mainline...
>>> I would agree, too tighht -- But their #6's are way too big (R90") for my tight space... 
>>> no, don't look at 9" radius, you can make them work with 5 foot to 14 foot radius... use them... -- And why they don't offer anything in-be-frickin'-tween is way beyond me... 
>>> because you are looking at radius, misleading, Offering #4 frog and #6 frog makes sense, #5 too close to either... -- And no one offers something in SS in ~5' radius except AristoCraft (wide radius), but those don't hold up at all...
>>> they can hold up and replacement frogs are $1, they need some tweaks but can be made to function smoothly... Dunno if I helped, but more refined "answers" and opinions from me... Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for putting up with my rant Greg, and answering all my points. And thanks everyone for bringing up your thoughts and experiences. As always, I'm in your debt. 

I put the material issues to Bruce at SC; he confirmed that NS needs cleaning, but feels it's better than brass in that regard, and that he'd go with NS regardless. 

I'll have to mull it over some more, but at this particular moment at least, I'm tending toward the NS / SC products. Still, it's a hard choice for me, between that and Train Li... 

Greg, when you said "you can make them work with 5 foot to 14 foot radius... " you meant the R40" / #4's? But I thought that was too tight (per a different thread) for main line turnouts? Maybe it's just an appearance thing?

BTW, I hope there's no problems with code 250 rail, with typical Bachmann & LGB locos & rolling stock, 'cause that's what SC offers in NS.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No rant, as a matter of fact, I was talking about this thread and you in particular to another modeler yesterday... so... 

There's been a number of discussions lately about helping people, and courtesy, and people not helping others enough, and burned out "experts" etc. 

It's a pleasure trying to help you and answer questions... I noticed that the other day, and put together why: 

1. You ask intelligent questions. It's not a matter of IQ, it's clear you put thought into your questions when you ask them. 
2. You actually listen and process the information. It's evident from the subsequent questions you ask. 
3. You stay involved... when someone asks questions and 10 people jump in to help, often that person will just disappear or not stay involved. 
4. You put effort forth yourself. You called the vendors, you did more research, you googled. 

So many times it seems that people want help, but they want everyone else to do everything for them, and cannot be "bothered" to use Google, or pick up the phone. 

So, I actually look forward each day to how your decision making process is going, and for the pieces of information you uncover in your "quest". 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I've heard some people say they had trouble with code 250, but when I investigated, it was either not really the case, or they had some goofy toy running. Even LGB should be OK on code 250 from what I have seen. 

If I had to do it over, I would go code 250 SS.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

While we're on the subject of materials (and therefore manufacturers), here's a question about rail flanges. 

SwitchCrafters says their turnouts are compatible with rail / track by Llagas, ME and Cocry. 

But I thought that Llagas had some funky narrow-base-flange geometry, that only worked with other Llagas products (without special adapters). I can't find where I got that idea, but the picture's stuck in my head. To quote from btcomm.com: "Llagas Creek rail and ties are not interchangeable with anyone else's rail or ties except Tenmille". 

Llagas has better pricing on their NS flex track, so that's why I'm curious about compatibility. 

??


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff 

The rail base of Llagas Creek / ME / COCRy is 0.5mm smaller than the base on Sunset Valley / Accucraft. Rail clamps for the SVRR rail will align the two together, but there will still be a slight BUMP as the width of the rail heads is also narrower by a fraction of a mm. To achieve smooth operation you would need to file the inside edge of the larger rail "ever so slightly". This is from one who used SVRR switches with Llagas Creek track, both code 250 [ME]. 

I have extensive experience with both products.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, any comments on flanges hitting "spikes" on either of the two rail types? 

Thanks, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

How kind of you, Greg! You just single-handedly obviated all the disconnectivity-based-feelings I've been dealing with at work all week! Big







!

So now that you've said all that, I've gotta be responsible and not have too much beer beforehand...









More seriously, it's always an honor to hear from you Sir; your web site is encyclopedic, your memory is very impressive, and your comments always worth taking into consideration!

===Cliff

PS, bummer that you don't like NS...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 11 Feb 2011 04:14 PM 
Cliff 

The rail base of Llagas Creek / ME / COCRy is 0.5mm smaller than the base on Sunset Valley / Accucraft. Rail clamps for the SVRR rail will align the two together, but there will still be a slight BUMP as the width of the rail heads is also narrower by a fraction of a mm. To achieve smooth operation you would need to file the inside edge of the larger rail "ever so slightly". This is from one who used SVRR switches with Llagas Creek track, both code 250 [ME]. 

I have extensive experience with both products. 
Thanks Jim, that proves that the image I have stuck in my mind (involving at least 1/8" narrower base flange) for Llagas isn't germain. I could swear that it wasn't just a dream, though... But whatever, you've set me straight, and I appreciate it.

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 10 Feb 2011 06:03 PM 
Cliff the Nickle Plated Brass track that Axel sells is VERY VERY tough. 
It Doesn't require cleaning like brass or nickle silver track as it does NOT oxidise like brass, nickle silver and aluminum do. 
In order to remove the plating you'll need to be cleaning it with a Grinding Wheel. 

Ron Well, that's great to hear, Ron. How much of it do you use? And for how long a period of time? 

The sample switch I bought is very impressive. It reeks of "Tcherman Engineering," if I can quote Axel adequately







, meaning that every detail has been carefully designed for and either machined or molded in. 

So you've just made my decision more difficult... but hey, the stuff is what it is. So thanks for that info. You help me swing back to my main objective, which is reduction of track cleaning, and... I think it started with being able to solder to nickel-plated rail? Seems years ago, not sure. 

Thanks to this conversation though, the whole subject of NS rail came up, which led me to SwitchCrafters and their amazingly affordable curved and wye turnouts, which led me to rethinking my whole track plan, which leads me to argue for NS (because of track plan improvements due to geometry afforded by SC product offerings), and discussion on code 250 compatibility stuff...

What a hobby! I'll bet you couldn't get this much neurological engagement from stamp collecting!



===Cliff


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg 

My first layout with a 240 foot circuit, built in 1988, used ME code 250 aluminum rail with the "original" Llagas Creek tie sections that had 2 or 4 ties and extremely sharp edges on the square corners. By the time you threaded a batch onto about three 6 foot track sections you had nice blisters. ME made extruded aluminum [or cast] joiners that used small SS screws. I used both Peco and LCry switches. 

The first version of the current layout used Llagas Creek code 215 NS rail with the 9 inch long narrow gauge tie strips. The layout now has Sunset Valley code 250 NS track. I switched to the heavier rail because [at least on my layout] the track would shift in the crusher fines under the weight of Aster live steam locomotives at speed. Now that everything is on a solid structure [Trex synthetic decking] I am sure I could use code 215 or even code 200 rail. 

Everything has run on the code 250. The ONLY cars that 'bounced along" on the spike heads of the code 215 was two of the very early "yellow box" LGB cars with sharp deep flanges that I could use for making seeding furrows in my lawn in the spring. They are true "mud cutters". Kevin Strong has seen more of these than many of us, since he started outdoor railroading probably before he entered grade school. 

My biased personal opinion is that code 215 is wonderful for the "high standards" modeler, and that code 250 is a very good compromise between scale fidelity and operation. The down side to the code 215 was that "tree trash" had a much greater effect on running than code 250.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Jim, I knew you had a wealth of experience, and that's the long term experience that helps others. 

"Mud cutters" indeed ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Well, that's great to hear, Ron. How much of it do you use? And for how long a period of time? 

The sample switch I bought is very impressive. It reeks of "Tcherman Engineering," if I can quote Axel adequately







, meaning that every detail has been carefully designed for and either machined or molded in. 

So you've just made my decision more difficult... but hey, the stuff is what it is. So thanks for that info. You help me swing back to my main objective, which is reduction of track cleaning, and... I think it started with being able to solder to nickel-plated rail? Seems years ago, not sure. 

Thanks to this conversation though, the whole subject of NS rail came up, which led me to SwitchCrafters and their amazingly affordable curved and wye turnouts, which led me to rethinking my whole track plan, which leads me to argue for NS (because of track plan improvements due to geometry afforded by SC product offerings), and discussion on code 250 compatibility stuff...

What a hobby! I'll bet you couldn't get this much neurological engagement from stamp collecting!



===Cliff


Hi Cliff,
I have about 240 ft down at the moment with more to come in the next phase of expansion.
All of the curved sections on my layout are Axel's Nickel Plated Brass flex track. I use Aristo craft stainless steel track for the straight sections.
I also use Axel's Nickel Plated Brass Proline switches, 6 R7's and 4 R3's all with remotely controlled Pro Drive DCC switch motors, which I also highly reccomend.

The track and switches have been in use outdoors now for about 9 months now and I have yet had to clean anything, other that the switch movement areas. They look as good as it did when I first started placing it in June 2010.

Here is a picture of my layout, if you look at some of my threads here you can see it in operation. If you go over to the Aristo Craft website and search " Construction of the BRR commences " ,in the general forum, you'll find a complete from scratch build thread.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's gorgeous, Ron! 
Great to hear the testimonial. No matter what I do on the rail, I'm sold on the Proline DC/DCC machines. 
Did you get their optional microswitches, and/or do you know if they go inside the weatherproof enclosure, or outside? I've emailed Axel, but I thought I'd ask you too. 
===Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By CliffyJ on 09 Feb 2011 04:33 PM 
Yes, Bruce has been extremely responsive. I've been giving him a barrage of questions over the last few days, kinda like I do here, and he's been answering most of them. Which I'm very grateful for. 

I guess what I'm trying to get used to is the idea of a more hand-crafted product, vs. the more mass-produced, machine-made (an over-simplification, but I'm not sure how to say it without ticking someone off). The Train Li turnout I have in my hand is very precision-looking and -feelling, with cast-in tie plates and carefully wired rails. The SC products are hand-spiked into composite ties, which (with their wood fiber content) might be susceptible to moisture over time. Don't know. 

However, Bruce told me that his turnouts have been in service for 6 years. And from the pics, I really like the true guard rails (not cast plastic), and the obvious care taken with the spiking and soldering. Not sure though about his microswitches; he's really pushing battery-op, not a good indicator that he's worked those issues through, but obviously I don't know. 

I'm thinking that I should stay with the DCC Proline switch machines, and use their aux contacts for power switching (which they say can be done). 

Anyway, thanks for fessing up Greg about the engineer-thing. I too have, in my limited experience, felt the pain and confusion of LGB geometry, so my hat's off to you for going as far as you did. I figured that only an engineer would enjoy that process in and of itself, in order to be that exhuastive! 

Along that line, I've concluded my Acad block creation of the SC turnout centerlines, and am looking forward to messing with my track plan this weekend to see what they (especially the curved switches) do to it. 

Best regards, 

====Cliff 



It takes one to know one. I could smell it a mile away. Engineer by training here, also. Its good you have started all these threads, Cliffy. As you and I are in the same phase of building our outdoor empires. I have elected to go with battery for the simple reason that I do not want to clean track. One thing I can tell you is, since you have chosen to go with track power, you will have to clean the track at one point or another no matter what material you use. It is like "death and taxes", track power means cleaning track. As for the materials, I would try to match with what you are going to use for your turnouts. It sounds like the SC ones have nice construction to them.

You have spent a lot of time grading your area where your layout is going, dont "skimp" on the track. Afterall, it will be outside all the time and bad track will create a constant headache which will cause you to not operate your layout as much. Good track adds to your enjoyment of your hard work.

One last thing, I think I would steer clear of the "oil" trick that indoor people use. The outdoors is a dirty environment, adding oil to your rail will attract all sorts of things. Indoors you dont have to deal with that stuff, its a much more controlled environment.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Nickel plated brass rail has been offered by the German firm Thiel for something like 20 years I believe. It has a solid reputation. 

Before I decided never to go track power, I happened to nave some nickel-silver rail, that I choose to actually have nickel plated! An unusual and uneconomical thing, since the thing is of course to plate brass rail. (Or aluminium rail, but nobody seems to have done that. Also, that combination might not be as perfect as brass / nickelsilver with nickel plating.) The rest of my track is stainless steel. Unless you use a file / coarse emerycloth / grinder or something, you cannot remove the nickel plating. The track has been outdoors for 4 years. The running surface is still mirror finish! (Thiel offers it with a more matte-finish.) -No dirt will simply be able to stick to the nickel surface!!! This however, is not true for the stainless steel track, where some black gore eventually builds up on the track head. (I suspect it's a mixture of steam-oil and roll-crushed grass-clippings ;-) 

If I were to go track power, I would ONLY USE NICKEL PLATED track and switches. It's simply outstanding!!! 

And here is the thing; You can buy any second hand brass or nickel silver track or switches (that also have plastic ties - not real wood), rinse the stuff in your dishwasher, and have it plated at any nearby professional nickel plating facility. That's what I did. Ask for varying finishes matte / mirror & work out a deal. I partly payed in chocolatebars ;-) (Thiel used to offer this service in Germany, I don't know if the new owner does; Thiel has been bought by Mr Kesselbauer Junior; Info for German readers...  

I'm very surprised this hasn't been an established thing in the USA earlier, since you folks really strike me as on average, outstandingly openminded about new practices & things, compared to for example Swedish people :-D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

It takes one to know one. I could smell it a mile away. Engineer by training here, also. Its good you have started all these threads, Cliffy. As you and I are in the same phase of building our outdoor empires. I have elected to go with battery for the simple reason that I do not want to clean track. One thing I can tell you is, since you have chosen to go with track power, you will have to clean the track at one point or another no matter what material you use. It is like "death and taxes", track power means cleaning track. As for the materials, I would try to match with what you are going to use for your turnouts. It sounds like the SC ones have nice construction to them.

You have spent a lot of time grading your area where your layout is going, dont "skimp" on the track. Afterall, it will be outside all the time and bad track will create a constant headache which will cause you to not operate your layout as much. Good track adds to your enjoyment of your hard work.

One last thing, I think I would steer clear of the "oil" trick that indoor people use. The outdoors is a dirty environment, adding oil to your rail will attract all sorts of things. Indoors you dont have to deal with that stuff, its a much more controlled environment. 
Hey Jake, great to hear from you! 


I have to come clean, I'm not an engineer by training. That's painful to admit, because a number of dudes that I've worked with, who slaved hard and paid dearly for their degrees, come at me with garlic, a cross and a spike if I say that I'm anything other than a designer. But after 30 years of doing what I do, and since they're not garden railroaders, I'll permit myself (only here!) the term "design-engineer." 

But even after trying to toot my horn, believe me, the knowledge stream has been unidirectional, and distinctly laminar: I'm the student here, trying to take a sip from the garden hose! Sheesh, I'm looking forward to the day where I can actually help someone else out! But in the mean time, all I can do is try to ask questions -- good, self-evident, or just flat-out stupid. And Greg, Jim, John, and so many others here have patiently walked me through the issues, or at least have brought them up. 

Speaking of bringing things up, back to your great points. But first, let me take this opportunity to talk to myself (and you) in what is for me a real-time quandry. 

I'm going rail power, because the pro's of DCC fit especially, almost exclusively, well for my situation. 
I wanted zero-cleaning, just because. But in order to get the switch geometries right, without needing to learn to hand-craft my own, it seems that I'm driven to materials that require cleaning.
The Train Li products are nickel-plated; and it's been pointed out strongly here that the plating is robust.
But thanks to this thread, and Bruce from SwitchCrafters sending me the files to measure, I've completely re-done my tight track plan per SC offerings -- and I tell ya, I've sort of fallen in love with their curved switches, which would have cost at least 3 times as much if I stayed with the Train Li offerings.

So now, for me, it's down to this decision:
Option 1: Go with SwitchCrafters, solid nickel-silver rail, code 250; save money, have a better track arrangement; but take on the burden of cleaning, and potential breakdown (spikes in ties) in future years (but at least you can re-tie / re-spike them)
Option 2: Go with Train Li, NS-plated rail, code 332; be happy with zero cleaning and the careful engineering of their mass-produced (cast-tie) products; but revert to less preferable track arrangement, and spend a bunch more.

To ameliorate the cleaning issue of Option 1, indeed I was really excited about the oiling of the rails. 

But now, you've raised a great point: that oil will gather grundge! 

So thanks for bring that point up, Dude. For the oiling advocates though, have you seen this to be an issue? If so, how hard / frequent has it been to clean it up?

All the best, and looking forward to see how your layout goes this next year,
===Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Pauli on 12 Feb 2011 04:33 PM 
Nickel plated brass rail has been offered by the German firm Thiel for something like 20 years I believe. It has a solid reputation. 

Before I decided never to go track power, I happened to nave some nickel-silver rail, that I choose to actually have nickel plated! An unusual and uneconomical thing, since the thing is of course to plate brass rail. (Or aluminium rail, but nobody seems to have done that. Also, that combination might not be as perfect as brass / nickelsilver with nickel plating.) The rest of my track is stainless steel. Unless you use a file / coarse emerycloth / grinder or something, you cannot remove the nickel plating. The track has been outdoors for 4 years. The running surface is still mirror finish! (Thiel offers it with a more matte-finish.) -No dirt will simply be able to stick to the nickel surface!!! This however, is not true for the stainless steel track, where some black gore eventually builds up on the track head. (I suspect it's a mixture of steam-oil and roll-crushed grass-clippings ;-) 

If I were to go track power, I would ONLY USE NICKEL PLATED track and switches. It's simply outstanding!!! 

And here is the thing; You can buy any second hand brass or nickel silver track or switches (that also have plastic ties - not real wood), rinse the stuff in your dishwasher, and have it plated at any nearby professional nickel plating facility. That's what I did. Ask for varying finishes matte / mirror & work out a deal. I partly payed in chocolatebars ;-) (Thiel used to offer this service in Germany, I don't know if the new owner does; Thiel has been bought by Mr Kesselbauer Junior; Info for German readers...  

I'm very surprised this hasn't been an established thing in the USA earlier, since you folks really strike me as on average, outstandingly openminded about new practices & things, compared to for example Swedish people :-D All great info Pauli, thanks very much.

To your point, I believe that Thiel is manufacturing the custom turnouts for Train Li (and perhaps their rail, but I don't know). 

Are you saying that after 6 years, you've not had to clean the rail at all? Or if so, please describe how, and how often. That would be great to know. 

Also, it's fascinating to see the process you recommend, re. plating other rail-on-plastic-tie products. Have you had to do that a second time, with certain switches?

Final question, have you ever had the Thiel (or your own) plating wear off? Or flake off? If so, under what circumstances? Ron / BodsRailRoad says that you'd need a grinding wheel to remove that plating. His layout has been in place for less than a year, as I recall; but would you concur, after 6 years of usage?

Thanks Pauli, and best regards, 
===Cliff


PS, to your last point, the only objection I have is that I'll stand up against any Swede when it comes to closemindedness! Lemme at him!  
But now that I think about it, I'm 1/8 Swede, on my Dad's side, so you may have me there... huh.......
Wow, now on top of everything else, I'm realizing that my stubbornness might be genetic and insoluble...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Based on Pauli's and Ron's strong opinions, I'm now swinging back towards Train Li / Axel / German. 
If anyone else has a vote for (or against), or comments about, nickel-plated rail, please chime in! 

Gosh, and I thought the power method, and roadbed method, and control method decisions were tough... But this be where the money be. 

This evening, I'm working on more budget comparisons, and especially the good ol' weighted factors table for this. 
Thanks for letting me think out loud in these threads, guys. If nothing else, it's therapeutic. 

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, after all my excitement over the SwitchCrafter products, and assuming the testimonials regarding cleaning / longevity for nickel-plated are solid, it seems that the Train Li products score far higher in my weighted factors table. If anyone cares for the details on this, let me know. 

Which means that I'll need to revert to track without curved switches, which is disappointing, but not the major factor for me. It was just cool. For those who care, the SC curved turnouts are ~$120, and the TL ones (made by Thiel) are ~3x that, so no curved switches for Cliffy in 2011. Also, this decision means that I'll be going with code 332, but thanks Jim and everyone for helping me understand the impact of that issue. 

Can you tell that I'm in mourning? Not only about the geometry, but also now that I've got to call Bruce at SC, and spill the bad beans? To get answers, I've built a sort of relationship with both him and Axel, so it's kinda tough, since they both diligently answered the barrage of questions that you dudes are used to here... they're both great guys, in my book. 

Anyway, the pro's of this (potential) decision include no track cleaning, cast-in rail fastening (very robust), no spikes to loosen or corrode, ties that are part of an inseperable casting vs. seperate ties (leading to more rigid construction overall), ties cast from polyethelene (vs. composite ties containing wood fiber, which might allow moisture incursion and therefore expansion, leading potentially to spike loosening), powerable frogs (potentially important for my shorter locos), and microswitches (either in the tie-bar area, or inside the Proline switch machine, my choice) designed for robust weather-shielding (important for my several reverse-loop areas). 

Well, I'm wiping my brow over this.... no matter what, this is a huge financial decision for me, so... well, I'm sure it was for you guys too, so I don't mean to be a weanie about it... 

As an aside, my spreadsheet tells me that I can afford the delta between SC and TL if I either quit drinking beer, or... well, I forget what the other option was. Whatever it is, it's getting the axe before the beer, I can tell ya! I DID quit smoking last August (after 30 years) though; but those savings were already long-factored into this spring's outlay, so no additional budget joy on that front. 

Oh, I remember!! The new/potential savings came from going all manual throw for about half the turnouts -- because I'lll not be able to program all that stuff between Octover and November anyway -- who hoo! Beer's safe for Cliffy in 2011! 

Well, still gotta call Bruce... But at least I remembered Valentine's day, boy, if I'd forgotten that.... ! 

Thanks for letting me ramble... 

===Cliffy


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Good to here Cliffy. I made the decision to go with Sunset Valley brass rail. Mostly for looks. Brass because as I have stated, I'm batt powered and wanted to go with a cheaper option. The switches I was leaning toward the Train-Li stuff. Since you started this thread, I have been looking at the SC stuff. I have yet to make a final decision. 

As far as the Engineer thing, you talk just like one. I would say you probably have more "working" knowledge than those guys that treat you like the plague.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Jake! I appreciate it. 

As you've seen, SC's leaning is clearly toward aluminum / battery op. The former because it's cheap, the latter because... well, because he just loves it. 

Bruce is hugely helpful, and has a lot of engineering know-how. So you might want to give him a shout. Check out that train storage elevator he made, it's pretty amazing. 

===Cliffy


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Cliff:

In regards the need to revert to straight switches only, we are actually having a new curved switched by TL45 introduced this year (R3/R7) plus we have a variety of 5 more switch types all in NI Plated Brass which are already shown here:
ProLine Curved Switches

I would like to thank everyone for the excellent contributions. I wold like to add that I plagued myself for 4 years with 4 elements in my layout that were based on NS, which tarnished quickly (much quicker than my Brass - I had in my layout two Brass switches left just because I wanted to test and experience all for myself). These for elements (1 crossing and 3 3-way switches) were all code 250 (couldn't get anything else at the time) and I feel like a boat owner (Happy the day I bought and Happy the day I sold it







). And comparatively speaking the old 250 NS 3-way cost me almost the same (List Price comparison) the new new NI ones in code 332 with more operational stability, and much better ex factory wiring.

FYI, I challenge my layout and myself. I have on 800' of track and had 1 single feed for my DCC connection but I had to wire across to the other side due to signal loss problems on the other side of the layout. I can report other than loose clamps and oxidized stainless steel transitions (when I build LGB had not yet come out with NS plated Brass, and SS was the only other material available - and I wasn't in the business then either) track power has never been an issue (with the exception of the signal degradation which I had to circumvent with an extra 10 gauge wire). I will eventually replace the SS in that long stretch with NS track. I am aiming to go back to a single feed. Why?

Oh well, I believe debugging is easier. If something went wrong, e.g. the weather moved track in such a way that one rail slipped loose, a rail-clamp got loose because I didn't tie it down enough, an animal had its impact, it is easy to debug, where it stops working there is the problem







. I live under the assumption that if I would feed 5-10 times I just prolong a potential problem, because a second, third,.... feed will deliver conductivity from the other side, while the system is already "broken" I want to know about immediately once it has happened.

Quality of NS. AS stated before Thiel is using NS for years, and LGB introduced 2001 (if I remember correctly) NS as well. The Berlin garden-show is using the NS LGB rail ever since with basically 8/7/365 usage. A commercial Christmas layouts here in MA has used two years in the row our NS track and about 1200 hours of run time, bending-straightening, bending-straightening with no sign of ware. If you translate this usage into two weekend days each at 4 hours a day of playtime and we assume that you run trains half of the weekends in year (my daughter and wife would kill me







) then this usage equates to 6 years of usage. If anybody would need to talk to the builder I am sure that can be arranged.

Also never forget Stainless Steel is 60% more expansive the NS Brass. NS Brass is 20% more expansive than Brass.

Maybe this gives a but more information.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Axel very much for your experienced descriptions. 

I appreciate your debugging comments: yes, that's a very practical consideration! If I had four or more feeds on a 250' track, I'd have a much more difficult time tracking down where the loose connection was. Nice catch. 

The Thiel switch sample that I bought from you is beautiful in construction. And the curved switches you now offer sure look tempting. But for the extra $190 for the curve (R7-R3, vs R7 straight), I'm not sure if I can jump to them at this point. I'm planning my concrete ribbon roadbed, and the surveying points, and the budget, all at the same time... But I'll go over things once more... my, those are nice curves... :0 

===Cliffy 

PS, you might want to consider the "nickel plated" or "NP" or "NPB" designation, vs. "NS," as I believe Greg has pointed out, because I don't think you mean to infer a silver content, correct? And you Germans like to be precise, right?  Or maybe I'm getting my metallurgy wrong once again... ;(


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Also Axel, it would be great to see your curved switches described in terms of actual radii (inches or millimeters), rather than "R3" or "R7" etc, because those designations don't correspond to anything but a fairly arbirtrary standard set up by LGB, and I (and perhaps others) don't have the decoder ring handy to figure out what LGB was referring to. Also, while I'm on the geometry thing, it would be very helpful to know what degrees of arc the two curves travel through. 

Don't mean to be critical at all; but these things would be helpful. These switches are not, I suppose, being marketed primarily to folks using LGB sectional track, for which they might be "plug-in's". But maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, I'm going to buy one or more, you can bet I'm going to be bugging you privately for the same data  

Best regards Sir, 

===Cliff


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

A simple soution to the "debugging" is to use power switches to the various leads. Then you can cut the power to various sections to locate shorts, faults, or interrupted circuits. 

Robert


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Cliff:

There is a compromise, the new R7/R3 from TL45 (210cm/120cm) @215/switch in NI.

Also unless I made a mistake I tried to use NI for Nickel and NS for Nickel/Silver in my previous post.

I will actually bring the topic up on a seperate thread. I propose a change of the exisitng nomanclature, where I will also rename part of our switch lineup. I hope everybody chimes in.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, you know we are friends, but you really need to say "Nickel Plated Brass", unless the rail is solid nickel, people are indeed confused. Describing it fully did not hurt LGB. 

Calling it Nickel makes people believe 90% of the time it is Nickel Silver, and that's actually bad for you. 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Good point, so I will be using:
NIpBr


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 04 Mar 2011 04:42 AM 
Cliff:

There is a compromise, the new R7/R3 from TL45 (210cm/120cm) @215/switch in NI.
Hi Axel,

Wow, that would be AWESOME, for $215; that would be only $25 more than the R7 straight, which would open up all kinds of things.

However, your site says $375 for nickel plated R7/R3 (http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/s...29_56.html)... is the new switch you mention something different? Or am I misunderstanding you...?

Thanks for mentioning those radii, they comport with what we've discussed for the straight versions. Do you know what degrees the arcs go through? Alternatively, do you know what LGB sectional curves they might replace (and how many of those two types compose a circle)? This is important for planning of grades (for my roadbed work), that is, where the grades can start. 

Regardless, I'll be seeing what one or two of these babies might do for my plan; I confess, my "covet meter" is redlining... 

===Cliff


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The currently listed R7/R3 is the ProLine custom line, each switch is hand manufactured. Their point rails have a hinge, the rail is hand spiked to plastic ties - it is a labor of love. And of course the R10/R7 switches are gigantic, and absolute fabulous in large layouts who want to have curve transitions and still runt he Big Boy through them. Also the double slip and and 3-way switches are out of this world (I will install three 3-way this spring - can't wait to get it going







). There is always room for these custom switches because most switche' sales volume will never justfiy the cost of a mold.

The new ProLine (as in Standard) is a production switch its bed is coming out of an injection mold and is a then hand assembled after a production line process for making the points, CNC machined frogs. That's why we can offer that switch for that price.

And just to clarify, both switch types are Made in Germany - 100%.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 05 Mar 2011 04:27 PM 
The currently listed R7/R3 is the ProLine custom line, each switch is hand manufactured. Their point rails have a hinge, the rail is hand spiked to plastic ties - it is a labor of love. And of course the R10/R7 switches are gigantic, and absolute fabulous in large layouts who want to have curve transitions and still runt he Big Boy through them. Also the double slip and and 3-way switches are out of this world (I will install three 3-way this spring - can't wait to get it going







). There is always room for these custom switches because most switche' sales volume will never justfiy the cost of a mold.

The new ProLine (as in Standard) is a production switch its bed is coming out of an injection mold and is a then hand assembled after a production line process for making the points, CNC machined frogs. That's why we can offer that switch for that price.

And just to clarify, both switch types are Made in Germany - 100%.

That's great!! Is this R7/R3 available now?

Are any of the other curved switches going to be similarly produced this year, or just this size? 

Thanks!


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Availability, I will check up on it, but it looks like spring time.

Other sizes? Unfortunately not. But never forget that I offer all MLS 1st class member a 10% discount. which helps a bit for one or the other switch. Let's talk about your needs, what other switches are you interested in?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 06 Mar 2011 06:38 AM 
Availability, I will check up on it, but it looks like spring time.

Other sizes? Unfortunately not. But never forget that I offer all MLS 1st class member a 10% discount. which helps a bit for one or the other switch. Let's talk about your needs, what other switches are you interested in?
10% discount? Serious??? Axel, you just made my weekend!

If I can use some curved switches, they'll be R7/R3 anyway; I was just curious about other shapes. And spring is just fine.

Now, about those dimensions you cited for the $215 Proline R7/R3 production switch. Are you SURE that they are 210cm / 120cm, and weren't assuming them to be, because of the nomenclature? Or, might they actually be the same as the Proline custom version, with 192.5cm / 135cm?

For now, I'll plan on the numbers you gave. But if it turns out to be the latter, please let me know!

Thanks again Axel!


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I am 100% certain. The switches are designed for the mold maker for 210/120 for the ProLine (standard) product.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 06 Mar 2011 08:27 AM 
I am 100% certain. The switches are designed for the mold maker for 210/120 for the ProLine (standard) product.
Excellent!!

I'm finally "done" I think with the track plan. Unfortunately, for the first phase, I can only fit in one of the curved switches as it turns out; but I sure looking forward to getting them all, and finally laying them. Oh, yes, and running trains









Thanks again for all your help Axel,
Cliff


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