# Is the High Cost of Track Hurting the Hobby?



## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

Is the high cost of track keeping you from building or expanding your layout? What will it do to those new to the hobby? Will they opt out? What do you think? 
SandyR


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I think if Oldies are getting sticker shock, Newbies will get a real shock, but then brass and stainless (SS) are getting close enough to be competetive, I think we may see SS inch downward in price of rise in demand increases production. It may in a few years become the standard. 

I think it will just slow down any expansions, and newbies who give it a go will just have to start on a smaller scale. We may see a dent in the "Bigger is Better" trend if people cannot afford to build layouts large enough and opt for smaller layouts.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I personally see the price of track dropping. If you look at the flex track that folks are coming out with I think its cheaper than when I bought pre-shaped curves 3 years ago when I started. I think flex track will help and that's what I'd like to use for a small expansion I'm planning this summer.


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## terry_n_85318 (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not buying any more track or turnouts. 

In fact, I am considering dismantling my layout. Between the cost of the track and the shoddy equipment that is supplied by the major manufacturers it is very frustrating. My interest has shifted to the 2 1/2" scale equipment. 

Terry


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe that high track prices will absolutely adversly impact the GR hobby. 
JimC.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

It impacted me. I couldn't afford enough LGB or Aristo track - even off EBAY, let alone new - to go that route for the full layout, so I took to using Bachmann track for some of the yard spurs and picked up some cheaper Lionel track to muck about with as well. As it is, I figure I *almost* got about all the track I'll ever actually use. 

Now...had I been faced with these prices when I first got back into model railroading, I quite possibly would have gone with 'O' scale.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I doubt that I would have bought and built as much as I did at the current prices but then again I started out with a lot of used track and used switches which kept my initial cost down. 

When LGB track and switches got hard to find and Aristo prices doubled I bought a large quantity of heavily used LGB track at a bargain price and then recurved the track to put the worn inside rail on the outside. 

If we want something bad enough we will find a way to get it. If new is too high there will always be someone dying or otherwise getting out of the hobby. That's just the way it is with a hobby that has a lot of old (and getting older) hobbyists. 

Jerry


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2008)

this all started when a certain company got gready and increased there price by 100% and said it was because of cost of materials!!!!!! that was B.S. IN MY OPION, kinda funny that no other scale had a increase any were near that? but i think now more than ever people are starting to relize they are getting ripped off...and such companys will not be around in the future due to there greadyness... would not hurt my feelings to see then go by by.. most of what they make others due too, and the others make items that work... 
Nick..


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 04/15/2008 4:27 PM

I doubt that I would have bought and built as much as I did at the current prices but then again I started out with a lot of used track and used switches which kept my initial cost down. When LGB track and switches got hard to find and Aristo prices doubled I bought a large quantity of heavily used LGB track at a bargain price and then recurved the track to put the worn inside rail on the outside. If we want something bad enough we will find a way to get it. If new is too high there will always be someone dying or otherwise getting out of the hobby. That's just the way it is with a hobby that has a lot of old (and getting older) hobbyists. Jerry


Regrettably, for a few of us way off the beaten path, we _almost always_ pay the premium price, being seldom in a position to take advantage of the good deals (although I constantly, it seems, ply the internet on the prowl for odds and ends that I (think I) need at any given time.

In all honesty, had I any idea how expensive my ultimate commitments to this hobby were destined to be, I would never have started. It is little wonder there are so few of these layouts this far north.  Fortunately, my decision to go to remote battery power enabled me to proceed with far less expensive track for what has turned out to be a relatively expansive (and, yes, expensive) outdoor layout.


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

It's not just the track. Look at some year old GR mags and compare the prices with what you see today. I've got about 150 feet of brass track -- since 2002 or so -- and don't think I'd be getting into the hobby at today's prices. One of the reasons I went with traction is the lack of commercially available equipment -- I build my own, and you don't need a garge full of rolling stock to duplicate an interurban line.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, I think the track prices have been bumped up, just because they can. Luckily, I won't be needing any for a long time. 

However, I always find it strange that so many folks think this hobby is expensive. When I compare it to almost anything else I can think of ( car racing, water skiing with a boat, snow skiing, HO or any other indoor layout, motorcycles, hunting, fishing, traveling, golf) it seems pretty low cost to me. 

I probably spent 80% of my investment in this hobby during the first two years. Now it is just tinkering and maintenance for me. I think the initial outlay for track is definitely a shock for most though. And now, even worse.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I started out with a lot of used stuff and track I inherited. Even so, I bought a good bit and the price was always a shock. The high price has definitely deterred me. In fact, I bought a Train LI track bender just so i could reuse old R1 curves. I just finished a car barn and it was cheaper by far to buy the bender, and bend 60 feet of old R1 curves than it was to buy new track. 

I don't think it's gouging though. Just the price of oil alone is going to bring the price of track and everything else up


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

Want to feel better about track prices? 
Try checking the price of brass and copper pipe and fixtures at Home Depot. 
LGB/PIKO/USA/Aristo all use brass composite for their rail.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am working on a huge expantion. It will just take me longer to finish it. I will buy it in small bunches. I just don't know what to use at this time. Aluminum is not good in desert heat. So it will be brass or SS.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I still have about 60-75 feet of track I haven't found a use for yet. lol. When used track gets high enough to buy me a new(er) van with the proceeds I'll sell. double lol


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm expanding my layout in a few weeks - several new sidings and spurs. However, I have all the track and switches I need for the next expansion, that I purchased at the old price last year. I will be buying new #6 switches later this summer to build my switch yard. I'll need about 8 of them and they seem to be about the same price today as I paid for them last fall, so I'm not worried (these may be old stock, but I found a place to get them and I plan to purchase them soon). In truth, my price constraints in the hobby are not really associated with track, but rather with remote control and power equipment. I'm not switching to battery because I can't afford to buy all the batteries, the charger, the controller cards, the sound, etc. So track really isn't limiting me at this time. 

Having said all that. I think the rising cost of anything decreases activity and if this happens during a slow in the economy it's even worse. We see a real fall-off in the number of people enjoying the arts, other hobbies, sports, etc. The good news is that history shows that all metals rise and fall. The price of copper will one day come down. The real test will be to see if track manufacturers lower prices, or just increase profits when this happens. 

Just my take. Keeping in mind that I'm not an ecomomist, and I just got a nice raise to help pay for my hobby. 

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't like the higher cost of track, and I use stainless steel. But there are more options now, as the field has levelled, and more USA-based companies can compete. 

Just like the price of gas, don't like it, but I'm not going to stop driving. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a small company that markets a number of products for athletes. I don't produce the products myself, I have a PLM (private label manufacturer) produce the product to my specs and lable the products with my lable. I then see to distribution and sales. We're quite new and small..... 

BUT.... 

I have a LLC established to place a firewall between my business and personal assets. My Corporation is a LLC holding company and the product distribution company is it's own entity under the LLC.. 

I have seriously though of establishing a seperate company to look into the production and distribution of gauge 1 track. There has to be at least ten manufacturers in Tiwan and Korea that could produce an acceptable quality track at a better price than we are currently seeing. There's definatly room in the market for another choice...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't think it will hurt the hobby. There will be sticker shock, but no more than what one gets when one prices locomotives. Newcomers to the hobby look there first, so if they're frightened by high prices, they'll have run away long before they even looked at the track. I do see it "pulling in the reins" a bit. The trend towards larger and longer equipment has fueled the push for the "mega railroads" we read about in the magazines and ogle on line. That tends to breed the perception that you need tons of space and boatloads of track for a "proper" garden railroad. I think with track being a bit more expensive, it will tend to draw railroads back to a "reasonable" size, which will do a few beneficial things for the hobby. 

First, it will almost force people to start small. This will allow them to get going and work their way into maintaining the railroad. I've seen many people scared off because they built this enormous railroad because they've got tons of space, then leave the hobby because they didn't have the time to maintain it. My old railroad back in Rochester was a bit more than I could chew. Had I been a newcomer, I likely would have eventually gotten frustrated and sold everything off. 

Second, it will work to get manufacturers to work on producing smaller prototypes to fit the smaller spaces. A K-37 will fit on my railroad, but aesthetically, it's too large for it. I gravitate towards smaller locos that don't take up half my sidings just by themselves. I would rather imagine that if people were building smaller railroads, we'd see more smallish prototypes produced to fit them. 

Third, it will drive the market towards alternative track. Personally, I think we need sectional code 250 track. A smaller rail profile--having less material--would be cheaper. Yeah, you'd have to get past the "but it's smaller, so it's not as strong" argument--which in my experience is complete bunk--but if you can bring it in significantly cheaper than what's out there now, then people will buy it regardless of their perceptions about its strength. 

So, no. I don't see the price of track hurting the hobby. When you adjust for inflation, the price of track is pretty darned near where it was 30 years ago. Considering how limited our choice of equipment was back then (and how expensive), the hobby still gained traction. Today, we've got a very good selection of equipment to suit our personal tastes, and it's comparatively inexpensive. People will find a way to run the models they like. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's an interesting argument. I'm a newbie, and I started out with a few LGB four wheelers and short cars I inherited. They looked cute on R1 curves. But I wanted American mainline, and got an Aristo Pacific and a Mikado and a bunch of rolling stock. I laid down a lot of 8 ft curves which looked enormous compared to the R1 stuff. But now I think the Pacific and the Mikado look too tight on my layout, and I don't have the space to do it differently. I'd probably have been better off going narrow gauge, or sticking with smaller engines and shorter trains. My Bachmann "annie" suits the track much more. Probably over time I'll migrate back that way. I'd like to see more of the smaller mainline stuff, like a good Atlantic or the 2-8-0 consolidation Aristo is supposed to be bringing out. So I agree, for most of us small is better and the high price nudges things in that direction


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Kevin and would especially comment on two points. 

First, maintaining a garden railroad is a bit of dedicated work. I can leave my HO alone all summer and restart in the fall with nothing but a light vacuuming of dust and a bit of track cleaning. That won't cut it outside - leave the garden for even a few weeks and things grow rampant. The sticker shock that is occurring now on track helps to keep everything in perspective, especially overall size. 

Second is the size and type of track. I just received an order of 120 feet of Llagas Creek code 215 aluminum. Its price is essentially the same as it has been over the last few years (it is assembled in the good ole USA!). And this price is wayyyy less than the going price for code 332 stainless. For live steam or battery RC, aluminum is perfect - for the difference in price on a couple of hundred feet of track and switches, one can convert all their electrics to battery RC. 

On the subject overall of price, I doubt that any real relief will occur. The relatively weak American economy limits the growth of income for most of us while at the same time, a strong world demand for most commodities has blown prices up. A world wide recession may bring some marginal relief to commodity prices but not incomes of course. This is compounded by the large trade deficit as the falling American dollar (relative to most other currencies) will continue to cause an upward movement in prices. All in all, it is not a very encouraging picture for our ability to buy our favourite hobby toys. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Isn't that what it is really all about? 

What hobby is NOT expensive? 

My motivation for getting into this hobby in the first place was my getting close to retirement and looking for a hobby that kept me home (look at the price of gas today compared to 8 years ago when I retired). 

I also wanted a hobby that would have a small operating (cost of enjoying it) expense. How much does the electricity it takes to run my "railroad" cost? Pennies a day, week, month? 

Last I wanted a hobby that would have a reasonable expectation of keeping most of its initial value. My 8 year old track was worth a lot more when I replaced it than it cost me when I bought it and my LGB trains probably have a higher retained value than anything else I purchased in the past 8 years. 

We live in a 40 year old house and drive old cars that were purchased at salvage sales. In a way I pay for this hobby by not living in a newer house and driving newer cars. We all make choices. 

Sure this hobby is expensive but what we buy today will probably still be running many years from now and hopefully for most of us (it has finally happened for me) we will reach a point that we no longer feel a need for spending a lot of money expanding what we already have. 

Are we being gouged by the manufacturers? I doubt it. If we were why have so many toy train manufacturers and retailers gone out of business? If we start thinking of our suppliers as gouging us we might discourage other suppliers from entering the hobby and giving us fewer choices to buy. Profit is its own motivator. IF there are excessive profits around other suppliers will be rushing in to get a piece of it. 

With the internet it only takes minutes for sales and closeouts to spread everywhere. It would be pretty difficult for anyone to make excessive profits in this or any other hobby these days. 

In addition when we enter this hobby we also enter the world of internet garden railroad forums where we meet and get to know new friends all over the world. Isn't it more interesting to be discussing the price of brass and stainless model railroad track instead of the price of golf balls and crowded golf clubs and golf fees? 

Regards, 

Jerry 




Posted By Del Tapparo on 04/15/2008 5:06 PM
I always find it strange that so many folks think this hobby is expensive. When I compare it to almost anything else I can think of ( car racing, water skiing with a boat, snow skiing, HO or any other indoor layout, motorcycles, hunting, fishing, traveling, golf) it seems pretty low cost to me. 
I probably spent 80% of my investment in this hobby during the first two years. Now it is just tinkering and maintenance for me. I think the initial outlay for track is definitely a shock for most though. And now, even worse.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

As a definite newbie, I have expereinced some major sticked shock at the price of track, and especially turnouts. 

My expereince is in Lionel O-27 as a kid, and later in HO scale layouts. At the moment, I'm working on my first Fn3 loco, and I don't plan on building a layout on which to run it. The cost of track, turnouts, and nearly every other aspect of a garden railroad seems to increase in proportion with the scale. When I do start laying track, it will almost certianly be handlaid. I think I can do at least as well as 90+% of the market in the looks department, and be a heck of a lot cheaper. 

I miss the days when I could buy a model kit and build it myself. It seems that a lot of folks are lazy or just ignorant, and would rather pay a premium for a R-T-R model. An HO scale boxcar ought to cost less than $10, not upwards of $50! The same holds true for large scale - I'd pay around $20 for a decent, basic boxcar or passenger car kit that I could add details to as needed. I don't want to have to shave off gaudy, unwanted details, and I don't mind gluing and painting. I do expect that the parts in the box should make a car that operates reliably and makes a car that looks reasonable, if lacking in detail. I also expect that the car, as built, can be detailed to any level, including museum quality, if desired. 

Is it too much to ask to provide inexpensive parts for those of us willing to roll our own?


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 04/16/2008 6:22 AM

I just received an order of 120 feet of Llagas Creek code 215 aluminum. Its price is essentially the same as it has been over the last few years (it is assembled in the good ole USA!). And this price is wayyyy less than the going price for code 332 stainless. For live steam or battery RC, aluminum is perfect - for the difference in price on a couple of hundred feet of track and switches, one can convert all their electrics to battery RC.  Regards ... Doug


This is one of the greatest arguments for going to remote control battery power. I can expand, if I choose, at the rate of a hundred or two hundred feet a year with the cost of the aluminum Llagas track. Anymore, I sure couldn't afford that kind of expansion with brass.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Old and grizzled as I am I remember when brass locomotives first began to be available in quantity in HO. What?!!? Fifty dollars for a locomotive??? While there were some expensive loco kits on the market such as the Varney Berk for about $47.50 most ran between $15 for a switcher and $30 for a Mantua Mike for example and those were kits. The brass locos were a real bargain compared to ordering a custom built job but still over budget for many modelers at the time. And..contrary to what I've heard from some, ran quite well with a little lube except of course for the very early ones prior to about 1958 or so. 

The extraordinary level of detail on the better brass locomotives soon won over the vast majority of HOers and they became accustomed to the higher prices. Even $125 for a PFM Crown 4-8-4 or $149.50 for a Y6b became palatable. People will adjust to the higher prices over time if they feel them in some measure justified. 

As to the cost of the hobby, when one looks back and realizes after several years that he's spent $10,000 on the hobby it might give him pause. Remember though that it's over several years and most of what you spent the money on you still have or at least have traded off for something else. You can't say that for money spent on a cruise or a hunting trip. That money's gone forever and you have just the memories. Chances are you'll have spent more on those things. The only difference is you don't have many material items to remind you of the amount of money spent. There's nothing wrong with engaging in those other activities of course but I mention them just to put the railroad hobby spending in perspective.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Richard Smith on 04/16/2008 12:04 PM

. . . As to the cost of the hobby*, when one looks back and realizes after several years that he's spent $10,000 on the hobby it might give him pause.* Remember though that it's over several years and most of what you spent the money on you still have or at least have traded off for something else. You can't say that for money spent on a cruise or a hunting trip. That money's gone forever and you have just the memories. Chances are you'll have spent more on those things. The only difference is you don't have many material items to remind you of the amount of money spent. There's nothing wrong with engaging in those other activities of course but I mention them just to put the railroad hobby spending in perspective.


No doubt about it. I am very pleased to have it here, of course. It sure keeps me occupied. 


However, had I any idea how much I would end up dumping into this hobby _obsession_, I am quite sure I never would have started. I guess it's a good thing I could not see into the future. Back in those days (mid 90s) the selection of both track and rolling stock was probably not a tenth of what it is now, however. It did not seem to be all that expensive an endeavor at the time. 


I do remember that it was quite a step up price-wise to go from Bachmann aluminum to LGB 8-foot diameter track--which was what I needed in order to build that first trestle. After that it was all brass--until I began construction of my separate Phase II line.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i think that higher costs will simply make people more careful in thier choices 

i buy LGB track, etc., not necessarily for a specific purpose-but to have on hand so i can add to or change or build as wish-truly the old time concept of train set- 

ive learned some things-you dont need a lot of engines and rolling stock-(but its fun)to get real satisfaction- 

you dont need a lot of track and switches either-epecially outside-simple works better-but switches do increase interest monumentally 

the price increase may disuade some-everyone has a price point- 
i would pay lgb closeout prices but not accucraft retail-some guys will only pay bachman- 

one thing is certain, nothing is going to get less expensive, especially things of quality, and in light of the exchange rates and present economy


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

High prices certainly do hurt hobbies in general... but then they also serve to stimulate the creative juices to get people to start doing things for themselves in order to enjoy the hobby by finding ways to get what is wanted without expending the cash. If the prices of track were to go through the roof, such that not even Bill G. could afford track, then we would find some other acceptable method of creating the illusion of a track with rails, even if it is just a single slot routed down the middle of a narrow board with the rails and ties painted on.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2008)

High prices ... also serve to stimulate the creative juices to get people to start doing things for themselves in order to enjoy the hobby by finding ways to get what is wanted without expending the cash.


how true! 

for more than 15 years i use curtainrails as rails in tunnels and other 'out of view' parts of my layouts. 

korm 
.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 04/16/2008 2:21 PM
High prices certainly do hurt hobbies in general... but then they also serve to stimulate the creative juices to get people to start doing things for themselves in order to enjoy the hobby by finding ways to get what is wanted without expending the cash. If the prices of track were to go through the roof, such that not even Bill G. could afford track, then we would find some other acceptable method of creating the illusion of a track with rails, even if it is just a single slot routed down the middle of a narrow board with the rails and ties painted on.





As when it comes to my hobby dollars I am "dirt poor" so to say, this has been my outlook from Day 1 in large scale, I still have several upgraded El Cheepo freight cars that started out life as Scientific Toys Xmas tree train set pieces. Its also been the primary driving force behind my series of "Whadahellizit" engines using $40 - now $50, HLW Macks as the base dive.  

When the writing was on the wall last year that track prices were going to rise, I bite the bullet went into hobby debt and ordered what extra track I thought I might need for the indoor layout. I even remember posting a warning here that anyone else even thinking of building or adding to their layouts had beeter do the same to! I'm glad I did, as the cost today for brass is darn near crazy! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

The price of track hadn't really shifted for a long, long time. When I got in to the hobby, LGB track was the only game in town. Price per foot was around $4. Aristo brass track, which we discovered several years later, was about $2.50 a foot. That was in 1992. When I bought stainless steel track in 2004, I paid about $2.75 a foot. There was basically no increase. 

The price of copper has risen from $0.70/pound to over $4.00/pound. Other metals are the same, especially alloys. Oil, which is used to make plastic, went from $40/barrel to over $100/barrel in this same period. I do not think that the guys spending all the $$$ on mold work are going to gouge us on track. That's not their focus, and I think they are really trying to sell track as cheaply as possible. I think they are merely passing along their cost to us, which, as a for-profit business, I would expect. 

This is a hobbby for most of us. I do this for fun with the extra cash I have left over after bills and other commitments. I am planning expansions with much more care and pause these days. I am not using the railroad much at all right now. Luke requires too much of my focus. However, in a few years, when he's older, I will likely be adding a second loop so we can both run our own trains. When that happens, planning and budgeting will be the rule, just like everything else. 

There's really no good comparision between HO and large scale. There is so much HO stuff available, but it is all so teenie tiny. I think dollar for dollar, you get more for large scale than O gauge. O gauge track, by the way, is every bit as expensive as large scale, especially now that it has gone toward scale looking ties and solid rail. Atlas track is what I am thinking of. But then again, you can fit a lot of O gauge in to a bedroom. 

How does this hobby compare with say, collecting classic cars? Has the high price of gas stopped people from doing that?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"This is compounded by the large trade deficit as the falling American dollar (relative to most other currencies) will continue to cause an upward movement in prices. All in all, it is not a very encouraging picture for our ability to buy our favourite hobby toys." 

Doug, I agree. At this point in time there will be less offerings at a higher price. As customers pull back to cover the basic needs of daily lifes- the hobby has to suffer. Less customer base, less products and more cost for what will be offered in an attempt to make a profit by any hobby company. 

Hold on to what you have got and take care of it because it will cost much more, in fact to the point that the hobby will regress even future due to lack of newbies and the aging of the present core. So, much for my cracked crystal ball.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave F mentioned having someone make the track and marketing it himself? Didn't a bunch of large scalers do just that in Australia years ago? Selling it as a "club" venture? 

Chas 

Is it time to do that here in the states? 

I've not bought any track in about 2 years. When I went looking for it locally (to save on shipping) every place was sold out.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 04/17/2008 11:07 AM 
How does this hobby compare with say, collecting classic cars? Has the high price of gas stopped people from doing that? 




A good friend of mine who owns and as a business restores and repairs Studebaker and Packard cars has said that some people are backing off on some shows, and a VI Lark vs a VIII Lark prices have changed to some extent. A hodrod builder I spoke with two weeks ago said that sales are down now.... 

Anyhow, about 15 years back I had a few European assorted cars from the 1960 and 1970s, just as prices went up.... 

....it actually helped the hobby to some extent. The people with junk, no money and rusting yard art got out, and the real enthusiasts with money kept things going, which resulted in cars to higher standards. 

Me? Two incomes, no house, no debts, no kids, so money was no issue for a while, so I drove a 1969 Citroen DS21 Pallas as daily driver up to 1997. 

Why did I get out? Got married, had kids....$250 buys a lot of diapers, or a single XAs Michelin radial from Coker Tire for a car you cannot put kid seats in, the wife won't drive and had not had a dealer network in the US since the 1970s. So the car became an expensive hobby, and was sold. 

Afterall, any and all hobbies take the last dollar after house note, light bill, groceries, tuition, tithes, etc. 

So as the budget gets smaller, the purchases (or purchaser) gets wiser......


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I just don't know?????????My head hurts....


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I am retired and on a fixed income. This is the only vice I have. My layout is expanding this year. I don't find the prices all that high compared to what I paid 4 years ago. I find G scale an affordable hobby compared to other scales. Just think if you had a yacht and you wanted to go for a little cruise. Have you seen the price of gas? Besides, most things that we worry about never really happen anyway. Regards, Dennis.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, but what really gets me going is what i can find for nothing, I work in the garbage business and I am forever looking for things I can use on my RR, pieces of cedar wood laying around go in the back of my truck, rocks, roofing material for a building, when I go and meet a customer for a demo, my eyes are searching out for something to find and use, thats whats so fun. I have 2 kids and a tight budget so money doesnt grow off of trees, but I love getting that deal or some odd thing for my RR. All my buildings are fromfound materials, all my rocks are free, my trees were 2-4 dollars, I am not cheap, but have more importamt things to spend money on. And try to find some for my RR. Love this hobby 

tom h


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By tom h on 04/17/2008 8:36 PM
Yes, but what really gets me going is what i can find for nothing, I work in the garbage business and I am forever looking for things I can use on my RR, pieces of cedar wood laying around go in the back of my truck, rocks, roofing material for a building, when I go and meet a customer for a demo, my eyes are searching out for something to find and use, thats whats so fun. I have 2 kids and a tight budget so money doesnt grow off of trees, but I love getting that deal or some odd thing for my RR. All my buildings are fromfound materials, all my rocks are free, my trees were 2-4 dollars, I am not cheap, but have more importamt things to spend money on. And try to find some for my RR. Love this hobby" border=0> 
tom h




You got Free rocks/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif Yikes so do I/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif I trap them in the wild's of the desert. Here in AZ there are no Bag limites on Rocks


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By terry_n_85318 on 04/15/2008 2:56 PM
I'm not buying any more track or turnouts. 
In fact, I am considering dismantling my layout. Between the cost of the track and the shoddy equipment that is supplied by the major manufacturers it is very frustrating. My interest has shifted to the 2 1/2" scale equipment. 
Terry




Terry, it would be a real bummer to lose your layout. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif It's a great place to run when I can get down to PHX. 

However, I certainly understand your love of the wide open spaces at Adobe Mountain and the Maricopa Live Steam layout. To be able to climb aboard the control car and spend hours running through the desert landscape. What fun on a late Spring evening with a full moon. Fabulous.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 04/19/2008 12:29 PM 
Posted By tom h on 04/17/2008 8:36 PM 
all my rocks are free, " border=0>" border=0>" border=0> 
tom h

You got Free rocks/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif" border=0>" border=0> Yikes so do I/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>" border=0> I trap them in the wild's of the desert. Here in AZ there are no Bag limites on Rocks " border=0>" border=0>

Yeah, but corralling 'em is a whole nuther deal...


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

As a matter of course, we are more used to the high prices of large-scale models here in UK because that's the way it has always been. 

The incredible and, some would say, extortionate rise of the price of track here in UK last year must have made a lot of folks think twice about venturing into large scale , viz - 

February 2007 - price of a box of 4ft 6in track - £126.00. 

March - 2007 - price of a box of 4ft 6in track -£294.60. 

February 2007 - price of a #6 switch - £94.00 

March 2007 - price of a #6 switch - £175.00 

There were a few dealers who jumped on the band-wagon and uped the price of stock they already held - some were caught out by the double stickers, and folks walked out of the door empty-handed, but righteously wrathful. I was one of them, and spoke my mind on this forum at the time. 

I was only in the position to buy track because of tearing down my teeny track to build a circular track for testing, and so I bought WAAAAAAY too much track intentionally, from one extremely helpful dealer who held his prices until his new shipment came in. Kudos to him. In the end I bought about 800' or so. Some went to my brother-in-law last month, for what I paid for it. 

In the end, we all bite the bullet, or don't. You either make the small sacrifices you need to run our big trains, or you don't. 

The choice is entirely yours. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well... 

I will admit to having looked at some spreadsheets based on what I need and what I "think" prices will be for what I need when I need it... Currently the prices of a length of "G3 Society" brass bullhead is £1.70p per yard the same as Cliff Barker is selling his Stainless steel at -but he can supply it in 2 yard lengths for £3.50p(!) The main problem with this (for me) is that fact that it would mean that each completed 2 yard length would weigh in at circa 6.5Kg... 

I think that this is how I will proceed -there is afterall a saving of £0.40p -and I will only need half the number of fishplates!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

What I'm seeing happening is that local shops are discontinuing carrying track. They won't invest the inventory dollars on something that is not a big mover for them. The offshoot of this is that maintenance and minor changes are more difficult to do- I can't just go and buy a section of track to do something with, I now have to order box lots. But, I see one internet dealer (not Al Kramer) has responded by advising on his track sales that he will mix and match pieces and sell less than box lots. That gets my attention, and more of my dollars will flow away from the local shops...


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Wlked into a LHs yesterday. I noticed he had some Aristo 5 footers in stock (About 5 pieces.). Out of curiosity I asked what he wanted for them. It was $8.00 a foot! It would have cost me more for two pieces than what I paid fo ra box of LGB 4 footers last year. 
LAO


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Sometimes it is a case of being in the right or wrong place. 

At a recent small train show I had some 10) left over Aristo 5' pieces of track that were almost like new (had just been used on an inside layout freight yard with virtually no use). I replaced them with used LGB track so all my indoor track is now LGB. 

I had the track for sale at the show for $20 each ($4.00 a foot with no tax and no shipping) but no buyers. 

A seller at the show had a 4' piece of LGB track in excellent condition mounted to a home made display base and wanted to sell it to me. I did not need or want it but ended buying it for $10 ($2.50 a foot and a free but unneeded display base). 

For now it seems the less traveled paths may be the best way to find the best prices. Old small dealer stock that had been at "high" prices may be going for relatively low prices now. 

Also one should ask his/her friends if they have surplus track. With the old buy 4 get 1 free sales there might be a friend with surplus track just waiting for a buyer. 

Jerry 

Posted By Ltotis on 04/20/2008 6:20 AM
Wlked into a LHs yesterday. I noticed he had some Aristo 5 footers in stock (About 5 pieces.). Out of curiosity I asked what he wanted for them. It was $8.00 a foot! It would have cost me more for two pieces than what I paid fo ra box of LGB 4 footers last year. 
LAO


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not been reading this topic since I have more track than I will ever use. Several years ago when business was good and I had visited Marty's huge layout, I thought I would greatly expand my layout. 
So I took advantage of the buy 4 get one free sale and bought a bunch of track. It now looks like the best investment I have made. I still have three unopened box's plus one box missing only one piece of 5' straights. And I don't know how many curves, mostly R1's. 
Since NAFTA really kicked in, my factory automation business with tier 2 & 3 automotive assembly plants has tanked due to the move of everything to ole Mexico. And my dive into Mutual Funds has gone into the red. With all the manufacturing jobs going to Mexico and the Red Kingdom, the housing market has also tanked. 
My expansion plans? The knees and hips have gone South along the the jobs. Any work on the layout will be to bring it all up to at least 2'. 
Now, should I sell the Mutual Funds and buy more track? Should I try to stuff the 5' straights into my 18" safe? Should I start to case other LS railroads in the area for a nighttime raid? 
/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

Has the price increase affected the hobby? Yup! I'm sure it has. Anybody checked out the price of Golf membership lately? 

Craig


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Now Duncan, would love to back up my truck and take those off your hands if those are giving ya trouble, they sure would look good laying out by my trains. nice lookin rocks/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif 

tom h


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By sheepdog on 04/20/2008 9:46 AM

I have not been reading this topic since I have more track than I will ever use. Several years ago when business was good and I had visited Marty's huge layout, I thought I would greatly expand my layout. So I took advantage of the buy 4 get one free sale and bought a bunch of track. It now looks like the best investment I have made. I still have three unopened box's plus one box missing only one piece of 5' straights. And I don't know how many curves, mostly R1's. Since NAFTA really kicked in, my factory automation business with tier 2 & 3 automotive assembly plants has tanked due to the move of everything to ole Mexico. And my dive into Mutual Funds has gone into the red. With all the manufacturing jobs going to Mexico and the Red Kingdom, the housing market has also tanked. My expansion plans? The knees and hips have gone South along the the jobs. Any work on the layout will be to bring it all up to at least 2'. Now, should I sell the Mutual Funds and buy more track? Should I try to stuff the 5' straights into my 18" safe? Should I start to case other LS railroads in the area for a nighttime raid? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif" /> Has the price increase affected the hobby? Yup! I'm sure it has. Anybody checked out the price of Golf membership lately? Craig


Wow. Doesn't sound to me as if conditions are exactly ripe for massive garden railway expansion down there in Hoosier-land.  However, the economy on the whole seems to have taken a huge hit largely due to soaring energy prices and the resulting price increases. Good luck down there.  I would definitely go for an elevated track system just as you suggested, if nothing else.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 04/20/2008 2:59 AM

As a matter of course, we are more used to the high prices of large-scale models here in UK because that's the way it has always been. The incredible and, some would say, extortionate rise of the price of track here in UK last year must have made a lot of folks think twice about venturing into large scale , viz - February 2007 - price of a box of 4ft 6in track - 

*£126.00.* March - 2007 - 

price of a box of 4ft 6in track -

*£294.60.* February 2007 - 

price of a #6 switch - 

*£94.00 *March 2007 - 

price of a #6 switch -

* £175.00 *


Those price increases are _staggering_. It is difficult to imagine _anyone_ entering the LS hobby in Britain under the circumstances.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Yup! Absolutely and positively. Luckily it's a hobby and not necessary for sustaining an existance like let's say gasoline./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 
Then again the high cost of everything (not just track) is hurting more than just this Hobby.


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## tbug (Feb 16, 2008)

Maybe not 'hurting' the hobby, but certainly the higher costs-of-living across the board have altered the amount of disposable income for the average person to put towards this form of enjoyment. I for one have gone into nuetral and continue to work on projects at hand. The need for track is there, but not immediate.


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## spodwo (Jan 2, 2008)

Then again the high cost of everything (not just track) is hurting more than just this Hobby. 



Exactly. I haven't bought any large scale stuff for about 2 years now. As a matter of fact I sold some switches on eBay - and actually made more than I paid for them....My plans to expand my "switching yards" are on hold because I am not going to pay so much for switches... 


I can't justify the cost of the hobby these days - not when the boys and I share another couple of hobbies. Their interest is my interest primarily now and it should be that way. So we play with our other toys. And those hobbies are certainly much less expensive. I have train stuff enough anyway. Plenty of other things to do with my LS trains and layout without spending any more money. I need to trim down the stable as having a train [or 30] that haven't run in a couple of years....well it's kind of like the old clothes in the closet. Why keep them.


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

The cost of everything has climbed significantly in the last few years. More so, I think than the past 20 before it. Demands for all these commodities will continue, I'm sure. AS for me, I have a few boxes of track that I purchased several years ago which will, hopefully, fulfill my needs for my expansion. 
In the short run, however, the wife will be losing her job in a couple of months and after six months of looking, prospects here in Michigan haven't been too good and aren't looking a whole lot better in the foreseable future. If we want to uproot our daughter in her last year of high school, there are plenty of jobs available in Miami and Omaha and Texas. Of course then, I'd still have to look for a job, so we'd be in the same boat. In my little existence, there are still far more important bills that need to be paid, so track prices have now gone way down on my list of calamities. 

Mark


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## wbmartin (Feb 19, 2008)

I started large scale railroading in 2002. I sold my box of 80 Kato and Atlas N scale locomotives and 300+ Microtrains freight cars and 50 Kato passenger cars, etc. This provided me with two brand new Aristo SD45s, 10 boxes of 5' straight tracks four boxes of 10' diameter curves and four wide radius turnouts. What then amounted to $2500 in track, now would cost $4600. I got into the hobby for the right reasons (gardening with my wife, playing outside with my kids, and playing with really big trains). I would love to expand the layout, but for now, adding landscaping (I like the free and cheap varieties) will have to do. 

Bruce


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By spodwo on 04/21/2008 5:47 AM
Then again the high cost of everything (not just track) is hurting more than just this Hobby. 


Exactly. I haven't bought any large scale stuff for about 2 years now. As a matter of fact I sold some switches on eBay - and actually made more than I paid for them....My plans to expand my "switching yards" are on hold because I am not going to pay so much for switches... 
I can't justify the cost of the hobby these days - not when the boys and I share another couple of hobbies. Their interest is my interest primarily now and it should be that way. So we play with our other toys. And those hobbies are certainly much less expensive. I have train stuff enough anyway. Plenty of other things to do with my LS trains and layout without spending any more money. I need to trim down the stable as having a train [or 30] that haven't run in a couple of years....well it's kind of like the old clothes in the closet. Why keep them. 





well ive been really bad-since the rumors began about the demise of lgb-pre marklin baiolout, ive been hoarding and finding as many bargains including track and many cars and locos that i sort of liked and could find at old prices-ive done serious damage in the past year-however-everything makes me happy and everything is no longer around or had become very pricey


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## VillageRail (Apr 25, 2008)

I started with an HO set back in the 70's as a kid, and quickly got hooked on model railroading. I now have many boxes of N, HO, and even some O scale Lionel in the attic. Unfortunately I live in a very small house with no space for a permanent layout. I'll set something up for a few days and have to take it down when my wife gets tired of it. 

Back in the late 80's I saw the new Lionel G scale sets in the toy stores and knew I would have one some day. But the price of a simple set with a 4 foot circle was something like $300, and I knew I would never be satisfied with a starter set. Fast forward to 2005, and a two year old daughter. I bought a battery powered RC set from Scientific Toys, set it up in our living room, and she loved it! That's when I realized I could turn her interest in trains eventually into a full blown outdoor layout I had only dreamed about. And the key was the ability to buy on the internet. I stocked up on these cheap trains and plastic track, then built a 60 foot loop in the yard. Add a dozen birdhouse buildings and we had the start of the Village RR. Once my wife accepted the plastic play version I knew I was set. Next came a 40 foot dog leg over the pond using Lionel track, still running the battery powered trains. Last summer I added an electric oval track around a tree. In December I built a 100 foot over/under raised track all with old Aristo aluminum track. 

What's this got to do with the price of track, you're probably asking by now. Almost everything was purchased online, mostly other people's "junk" listed on ebay. That's the only way I can even begin to justify it. For the last couple years I have been buying pieces and parts, putting them away till I build new sections. Fortunately I have enough now to build a large loop with 8' curves this summer, but I could not even begin to think about this addition if I was looking at new track. 

I love the local train shop, but I feel bad even going in these days because I can't afford his price for one piece of track. None of the train shops in this region bother to even stock much G scale. A couple boxes of track, a few boxcars, that's usually it. When I ask, its always the same story. It just doesn't sell (particularly at full retail). All of their customers say the same thing. It's too expensive for the average model railroad fan to get into G scale. I've read the comments from Aristocraft why their prices have gone up, and understand the economics involved with the price of brass. We can complain, but they have to stay profitable to stay in business. As for me, I'll keep making new G scale friends online and buying other people's "junk". At least until my wife cuts off my Paypal account (which she threatens every other week...)


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I was fortunate in so far as the track that I have was purchased before the recent price increases. I believe that if I was just starting out and was serious about building a garden railroad I would pay the new prices, after all my original track purchase was made without reference to any previous price lists. 
However, since the initial construction, I have considered laying another track which would give me a double track system. This is no longer an option due to the higher track costs. 
On this basis the answer to the question must, therefore, be YES! 
Whilst the hobby may seem expensive I am sure there are many more hobbies that are infinitely more expensive and at least, apart from attending Shows and Clubs, very little is spent on traveling around.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

For those of us who are retired all it takes is a trip go the gas station and a fill up that costs over $50 and the realization that it can cost almost half of that for a single round trip to "the city" when the city is not very far away (or at least it did not seem far before the price of gas skyrocketed). 

A few such trips to the gas station and I've learned to appreciate my garden railroad a lot more than before. 

It may have been expensive to build (even at the old prices) but every single day that I don't drive anywhere and instead stay home to play with the trains instead is like a $25 return on my garden railroad "investment." 

Sure, track and trains are expensive but if they keep us from spending even more money on some other hobby or (optional) activity they may be a LOT cheaper in the long run. 

After all, when we spend $50 on a tank of gas we are buying something with no residual value. Once the gas is gone all we have left is an empty gas tank crying for another $50 to fill it up again. Worse yet the miles we put on our vehicles with that gas is lowering the value of those vehicles in addition to the money we "lose" in the gas tank. 

With our trains, after we spend $50 we usually end up with something that a year or two or more from now will still probably be worth at least $25 and possibly worth more than the $50 we initially spent on it. 

Another way of looking at it is that when the price of new track doubled, the used value of the track we have also probably doubled. I know I would not sell my old track today for less than I paid when I bought it new. Would you? 

Jerry+++++++++++++++++


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