# Looking for protype LNER Teak info



## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Greetings,

I am looking to get some protoype information for building my live steam Mallard rake.  Granted, it is OO, though being live steam, I think it qualifies for MLS.  Especially considering it will be running on an elevated track in the backyard  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif

The first question I have is...  What is the purpose of a brake car?  How many would have been on an 8-9 car rake behind the Mallard running the teak cars between King's Cross and Grantham back in the day?  Here in the states, I've never encountered this during my research of US prototypes, so I'm baffled.

I have been gathering Hornby teak coaches from across the world, and I'm pleased to say I have 10 teak cars, and an old Pullman "Pheonix" Parlour car.  Some are here, and the last ones are in transit.  Without having them in hand and checking for sure, I think they are as follows:

2 full coaches
2 sleepers
1 oval ended window coach
1 Pullman "Pheonix" Parlour (not teak)
5 coach/brakes, hard to tell for sure from the photos.

Would the cars have diaphrams between them?  What would a prototypical rake look like from beginning to end, and how many brake coaches would be in an average train at most?

Also, any web sites than folks can offer for research would be most appreciated.  Seeing as I've recently settled in for a 16 hour shift (and it is dead out there tonight), I'm sure I'll find some info in the next few hours.

Thank you,

Kent


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent take a look here,  http://www.lner.info/refs/books.shtml
The brake coach was where the Guard (conductor) had his  "cubby hole", it also carried important parcels and baggage.
The diaphragms wwere fitted to all corridor stock.
I'm sure some of my English breatheran will enlighten you more.
Hope that helps?
Rod


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Well... I am not ENGLISH -but I do have the information you require!!! LNER out of Kings Cross would have been configured thus: 
A4 loco: brake third (guards towards loco), kitchen third, third restaurant car, open third, open third, open third, kitchen first, first restaurant car, corridor first, corridor first, corridor first, observation saloon. 

Your chances of finding a proper "beaver tail" observation car however -remote!!! 

regards 

ralph 

PS the information is from LNER 150 (I have all 4 in the series!)


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, thank you for that info so far. Ok, so I guess I'm not gonna have a true/factual rake at the moment. 

A few qestions come to mind at this point. And unless some of you have knowledge oh HO/OO offerings, the answers I'm looking for may not be found on a large scale site. 

Would the Hornby Buffet car fall into the kitchen or resturant catagory? www.hornby.com/passenger-rolling-stock/lner-corridor-buffet-r4173/product.html 

Does anyone make an actual seperate teak resturant and kitchen car in HO/OO? 

Is there anyone else producing HO/OO LNER cars to fill the gap? 

What does a "beaver tail" look like, and where can I find one? (stop snickering, that isn't what I meant!) 

And finally (until I come up with more questions) what is the LNER 150, and where can I get a peek at that info?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent,

I guess you are aiming for this? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif










A few suggestions, from an old LNER fan.  The coaches in the above (recent) photo are restored by the LNER Coach Association, based on the North York Moors Railway (my 'home' locale.)  Their website is www.lnerca.org/index.htm and I'm sure they will respond to emails; especially if you join. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

The distinction between kitchen, restaurant and buffet coaches was due to the nature of the train for which they were intended.  The Flying Scotsman (train - loco came later) runs London - Edinburgh (still - leaves Kings Cross at 10:00am as it always did.)  That's a long trip, so the passengers expected a full meal - hence the first and third classes both had a restaurant car.  On a shorter trip, a buffet car provided adequate facilities.  _[Contrast this with the prevailing attitude in Washington towards Amtrak and food service - makes you sick with the stupidity of attitudes towards train travel.]
_
Grantham, by the way, is only a short hop north of London.  Mallard wouldn't be running London-Grantham, except as an intermediate stop on the way to York, Edinburgh, or somehere similar.

Next - their are two kinds of teak coaches: 'real' teak from the era of Sir Nigel Gresley (Chief Engineer of the LNER) and 'fake' teak - steel coaches painted to match the teak by Gresley's successor, Thompson.  The one you have with a round window is the Thompson kind.  Here's some from eBay UK :










As you can see, Thompson also painted them in other colors.  Also from eBay UK:










Finally, a Beavertail Observation Coach (sorry, that one is O scale!)  However, note that it is NOT teak.  There was a completely styled train called the LNER 'Coronation' that was streamlined to match the locos (like your Mallard, but actually starting with 60014 Silver Link a few years earlier - I think.)










Well, what fun I had on the 'net this morning.  Found you a real 'OO' scale Beavertail observation coach kit, from Cooper-craft's "Mailcoach" range.  www.cooper-craft.co.uk/00carriages.html  It probably arrives looking like this:










Cooper-craft also include a Restaurant/kitchen in their 'Kirk' range, which answers your question about who else makes OO/HO coaches.  [The HO is redundant, as no-one makes HO scale UK coaches these days.]  Bachmann UK makes an extensive range - that red/cream (commonly known as blood-and-custard) coach could be painted 'fake teak'.

LNER 150 is a book about the 150 years of the LNER:


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, excellent. Thank you for the good news. That means I have nine Gresley teaks, one Thompson, and one Pullman Parlour. I'm doing ok. I'm gonna go check that web site in a moment. 

I used to take this route from London to Thurso Scotland going back and forth from boarding school a few times a year. And as I research and plan more, my fiance' is getting very excited about it. 

Pete, would it have been unheard of to see an A4 hauling a rake of various colored cars?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent,

Keeping reading my post above - I've edited it several times with more pics.  [Got to get back to work!]

As far as hauling a rake of various colored cars, you really opened up a bag of worms there.

First - what color is your Mallard?  Blue or Green?  Blue was early LNER, dark green is the later BR style.  There's also a light 'apple' green used by the LNER but I don't believe Mallard ever got that, nor was it painted grey to match the Silver Link operation.  Green was post BR 1952.

Nothing wrong with running a Thompson teak coach in with the Gresleys.  It just implies it is early-Thompson era, post-Gresley, i.e. post WWII.  The teak coaches were slowly withdrawn as they got older.  The Thompson coaches got painted BR colors (red/cream) after the nationalisation in 1952, but slowly, as they were overhauled.  You'd see teak and red/cream coaches running together behind a BR green loco for quite a few years.

What you would be most unlikely to see (and I've never seen a photo of) would be a Pullman coach mixed in with a regular train.  They were used exclusively in Pullman all-first-class trains.  While I'm sure that occasionally a regular coach would substitute due to equipment problems, it would be unusual.  Suggest you forget the Pullman!

I would think that Hornby Buffet car would be a sensible addition to your rake.  You would have a typical express passenger train heading for Doncaster or York, not a crack express going to Scotland.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi,

IF you can find the following books  'Historic Carriage Drawings' by Nick Campling (ISBN 1-899816-04-6) or LNER Coaches by Michael Harris (don't  know ISBN), those are all about LNER coaches. The first one also has some of the coach drawings of the previous companies that made up the LNER, the second is mainly photos, with a few darwings..

The Buffett cars were built in 1933, to dia 167.   Buffett cars were for the non restraunt cars trains not with restraunt cars ; they were also very vried in their components and there were two triplet sets (built 1924 to 1928) for prestige trains. 

Thompson coaches were all steel and painted to resemble 'teak'.  Full brakes (luggage/parcel vans )  were still (built during the war) of wood however.  

Pullman in  hte UK was a extra fare (over 1st class) train that could include some 3rd class Pullman coaches examples are the Queen Of Scots or the Yorkshire Pullman, as Tac says all pullman only 

The Coronation, and the West Riding were streamline trains that were (I believe) extra fare BUT not Pullman.

The LNER used Garter Blue, Green, and silver (& in the war (generally filthy) black!)for the A4's. Then BR used blue (as the above photo) and brunswick green for them. Tte side valances over the driving wheels  had by now been removed- this was done during the war to ease maintainance.


There was also a set of 'Tourist' coaches in green and cream jus for info! Used for holiday traffic and special excursions.


North Norfolk Railway has some photo of LNER coaches  web link is as follows   http://www.nnrailway.co.uk/carriages.php; also there are a few on the North York Moors website but not much; thast is at 

http://nymr.co.uk/


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think we'll hear from Kent for a while... He emailed to say he'd got my First Aid package (4 LNER books, including Historic Carriage Drawings and Modelling the LNER.) Should give him something to amuse himself while the 911 biz is quiet.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys,

Can we end this discussion?  This engine called me and said the Athearn HO Scale streamlined Southern Pacific Daylight train (baggage, US RPO, coach, coach, diner, New Haven coach, dome, observation) is no longer going to be appropriate to pull.  










Tac - your information about the Teak coaches is killing me! I almost bought that 5 car set for the Mallard last summer.  Never saw them in person, and have no idea where there is a Hornby dealer here in the USA.  

I am only kidding guys! The info on the LNER is excellent, and I hope to some day travel in the UK and see the railway musuem at York! 

Mark


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark, 

Fear not. No Mallard should be demoted to pulling US cars.  Nothing wrong with them, they look great behind a K4, Hudson, etc...  The Mallard though needs teak cars, or at least british coaches!!! 

Mark, I'll go through all my cars when the last six arrive. Should be here by the end of the week. Once I know what I have, and find the nine I'm gonna designate as the "Flying Killam Consist", I'll pass on those three BR Maroon/Cream coaches and a couple others. It won't be a perfect matched set, though they all will be Hornby british coaches. I'll even add weights to them, then your Mallard will think it is pulling a full rake or 8-10. Also, I sent you an email on my roller base. If you want to use it while debugging your loco, let me know. If you also want to try my terminal track I'll send that down to try. 

Maybe we'll have two Mallards at DH. 

When the new coaches arrive, I'll post some photos.  I only hope the Large Scale Police down issue a warrant for posting OO cars here  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif

Pete,

Sorry to say work was very busy today.  I only got about five pages into the Grantham book.  I'm hoping tomorrow is quieter.  Man, some people have nerve calling 911.  Don't they know I'm trying to read?  


Kent SA# 4468 
LNER Mallard


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kent,

I posted questions here about the OO Scale Live Steam models, so I think it should be OK.  I mean, really, how much smaller is it than 1/32 anyway!!! Kidding. 

I'm going to try and debug her tonight once Luke goes down for the count.  Right now, its just intermission!! Gotta get that Mallard ready for those coaches!! Thanks for the offers of the rolling road and the terminal track.  I really hope its not the terminal track and its the washer.  That'd make me happy.  

Thanks !

Mark


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark, 

Good luck debugging. I trust Luke cooperates and goes down quietly. 

Let us know how it went tomorrow. 

Kent SA# 4468 
LNER Mallard


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys,

I hate intermitten problems.  I like it when I can pinpoint a reason for a failure.  This is not happening with my Mallard.  

For those of you who are unfamiliar with this system,  the locomotive contains the controls, throttle, cylinders and lubricator. The tender contains the boiler.  A high pressure hose carries steam from the boiler to the throttle/ reverser header.  There are two electrical boxes, a transformer that plugs in to the wall and a controller that is fed from the transformer by a 4 wire heavy duty cable.  Two wires go to the tracks.  When power is switched on at the transformer box,  the voltage applied to the tracks is set by moving a wheel to one of 4 positions.  The highest position is called Super Heat and is used to bring the boiler temperature up quickly.  The lowest is not actually a setting, but kind of like another off switch.  There are two intermediate settings that are used when running.  The throttle and reverser are combined in a momentary three position spring switch.  The center position is the normal one and springs keep it there.  Getting the loco to run one way or the other is accomplished by holding the switch for short periods of time against one side or the other.  A small servo motor in the locomotive adjusts throttle position and reverser position.  To stop, you must throw the switch to the opposite side and hold it there until your loco comes to a halt.  Of course, I am simplifying, as there are may ways to get the engine to slow down.  

Alarms sound when:
The loco is off the track and there is no load on the electrical circuit.
Water is gone from the boiler (a sensor )

When the alarm sounds, power is also cut from the throttle control box to the track.   I have been having an issue where the alarm sounds when the loco is sitting on the termianl (power) track with water in the boiler.  The voltmeter on the throttle box shows there is a load.  

Last night, Luke obliged after I read him some stories and rocked him to sleep (and that is way more rewarding than anything I've ever done with a train by the way!).  I went down to the basement and starting to tinker.  FIrst, I replaced the seal on the boiler water fill plug.  The old one didn't look too bad, but it was a little beat up, so it was probably good I replaced it.  

Then, I tried steaming up.  First was super heat.  After 7 seconds,  the alarm sounded.  I tried a few other throttle settings and then, for an unknown reason, the alarm did not sound, and water was boiled.  Once we reached operating pressure, as indicated by the safety release popping a few times,  I slowly started running her.  At first, she ran a little rough.  Once the cylinders were warmed up and clear, she ran very well forward and backward.  I was able to operate her with superheat settings, and almost no throttle, but I stopped after a short time because I feel this is hard on the engine.  She ran for about 20 mintues, and I decided to go to bed, so I backed her carefully in to her siding and shut her down.  

No idea as to why the loco will steam some times and not others.  

The voltmeter showed me that maybe I need to do some more track work.  Sitting on the terminal track, she drew 14 volts.  Moving down the line a little bit, she was drawing 16-17 volts.  No difference in throttle settings, either.  The loop she runs on has 3 switches, two #6's back to back with the frogs on the same side and a #4 with the frog on the opposite side.  It could very well be that I need to run a jumper around the switches.  I did burn up Atals terminal tracks when I first tried running this engine.  I can't imagine how many amps she pulls.  

Any ideas welcome!! Direct combustion of coal, gas or alcohol is not an option! This is a plastic train!  We use only the finest Nuclear or Dirty Coal (from Brunner's Island) generated electricity for this basement railroad!! Alcohol is reserved for the driver as this railroad operates on a bar.  Besides, its a waste to burn good bourbon or single malt scotch.  I geuss I should only be allowed to consume Single Malt scotch when running the likes of Mallard...

Thanks for letting this discussion of a smaller live steamer happen here.  The horby live steam site is not as much fun. 

Mark


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## james brodie (Mar 28, 2008)

Dear Sir. All the info you need on what type of coach(British general description for passenger carrying vehicles)you wish to run on what time train from KX or Ebro or antwhere can be found in official railway publications called Carriage Working Diagrams. They give the train formation (consist) from the engine towards the rear of the train.The Flying Scotsman would be diagrammed a Pacific loco usually an A3 or A4 but any other pacific could be pressed into use or even a prairie or ten wheeler, the norm would be A3 or A4. 
All the Gresley and Thompson corridor coaches had gangways at the coach ends and buckeye couplings and some A4s had buckeyes on their tenders and in early days A3s fitted with corridor tenders had buckeyes as well. 
The Beaver Tails were only used on the Coronation streamlined coaches and painted to match. The Silver painted coaches on the Silver Jubilee didn't have Beaver Tails. 
The Flying Scotsman sets I have are both eleven coaches long, one Thompson and one Gresley although the coaches could be mixed if a particular type wasn't available. Pullmans on the East Coast Main Line (ECML)were usually all Pullmans but in other LNER areas sometimes a Pullman would be used as a catering car mixed in with Teaks. This also happened on the Southern Railway with a Pullman in the middle of an electric unit train or as in the case of the Brighton Belle this was an all Pullman Electric Train. 
I can gladly supply you with some extracts of carriage Workings if you wish just give me a time period. 
Colours you could have Pre 1923 colours mixed with Teak..Teak..Teak Red/Cream..Teak Red Cream Maroon..Red Cream Maroon..Maroon Blue Cream..Blue Cream..then things went funny. Some Teaks made it into Blue Cream usually Catering Cars. 
Nearly all BR trains had a guards compartment at the outer ends of the train and upto the 50s we had 1st class and 3rd class with the odd 2nd class in the London Suburban areas then to bring Europe in line with England we abolished 3rd class and it became 2nd class. 
Some of the Gresley's had their drawbars modified so they could couple to non automatic couplings as mainly used on the LMS and GWR for through coach working but some areas of the LNER had screw couplings and British Standard gangways as against the Pullman Vestibule. if you want to date your layout (pike) pre 1923 the through coaches would mainly be ones or twos and later about the 30s companies ran their trains on alternate days so a train from Newcastle upon Tyne (LNER)to Plymouth (GWR) on Mon/Wed/Fri could be all Brown/Cream coloured coaches and Tues/Thur/Sat all Teak coaches, this way the costs and receipts could be split down the middle. 
I know this 'cos I am a retired steam engine cleaner. Jim Brodie.


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## david bunn (Jan 4, 2008)

I have enjoyed reading this thread for so many resons. 
Before and after the war my late Dad worked for the LNER and during that time made many long standing friends on the railway, one of these was an assistant station master at Kings Cross and on one memorable day arranged a private visit for Dad and me around Top Shed,in the cabs of A3s,A4s,V2s,A1/2s etc. 
Later in life Dad ran a pub and becames friends with the chairman of the 'Sir Nigel Gresley'preservation society which at the time was based at Carnforth. During one of our trips there on a trip pulled by Sir Nigel there was a footplate ride which meant a tight squeeze through the corridor tender, not for the agrophobic! 
As a lad of course there was a lot of trainspotting, the best spot for this was at the mouth of Welwyn 'north' tunnel. The sight of the 'Elizabethian' or the 'Scotsman' headed by an A4 blasting out at full throttle with the chime whistle blowing was awesome, driver or fireman always having time for a smile and a wave. 
Anyway up to date. I have a large cllection of Dads books and magazines from the 30s,40s and 50s so if there is anything specific I will try and look it up for you. 
Regards 
Bunny


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