# Alberta Spruces dying slow death



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've got about 15 ASpruce planted in various places in the yard, getting full sun or partial shade. THey've been there about 6 years. I haven't messed w/them or anything but they are turning brown and needles fall off. Starting w/one spot and then spreading.

I've not used fertilizer or anything. They're just giving up the ghost.

OTOH, my native Virginiana cedar (junipers), liberated from areas nearby, are thriving.

Possible solution: replace all ASpruce with natives.

Anyone else have this happen?

Thanks.


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

Don't know what part of the country you live in, but I live in the south 
center of Al. and I have had around 50 of them to die, with only 2 left, 
and they are dying now. I am replacing them with artificial trees that I can 
get from Michale's at christmas time. I think spruces need cooler weather 
and a lots of water. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Yes, hot here in N. Va. I was in Korea 3 weeks and daughter didn't water. Maybe that?


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Try these two links for some interesting info:

 http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/...29386.html

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/f...php?t=8736

The biggest problem that I have had was the heat. They do like a well drained area but you must keep them watered.
Steve


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## rayjturner (Feb 20, 2008)

Alberta Spruce as susceptible to Spider Mites. You can read about them on the Inet. They are extremely small. I spray with Malathion - seems to work. Make sure they have enough water at this time of stress.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

ditto on the spider mites. They are easy to get rid of with a spray of soapy water. 
Usually a heavy rain or a good shot with the hose will knock them off. 
I hose mine off regularly as preventive maintenance. 

-Brian


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks; never heard of spider mites; sounds evil 

good stuff on this forum!


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## Henson (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sure that spider mites are the problem. It will take time but they will grow out of it. I also use Malathion to control the spider mites.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Spider mites...my spruces made it through drought, 100* temps...but the spider mites did some of them in...I wish I could remember what I used to spray on them, but it fixed the problem....it was a pre-mixed solution....


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I think it is spider mites also. Someone reccommended a hortacultural oil, but I haven't tried it. They are drought tolerant. Brian has a good idea of hosing them down.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

They'd never NOT like being hosed down. Give that a try.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

I tried hosing them down...it did not work...

I guess the spider mites like a shower...


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Soapy water.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

OK...if you got spider mites...you got a lotta work to do to get rid of them. Some folks say spray them with water. Some folks say use Malathion. Some folks say spray soapy water. Those are all well understood counters to spider mites...and they don't work well.

Here's why...spider mites live on the underside of leaves and foliage. They look like a gray powder on leaves...on Alberta Spruce, I doubt if you could see them...even with a magnifier. The other thing you need to understand is that these things lay eggs in that plant at an incredible rate...and they gestate in 5 days as I recall. So...the fix you need is one that kills the bug...and also kills the new bug that just popped out of the eggs the old bugs laid.


They like a "dry" plant...and develop real fast on a "dry" plant. So, spraying them with water does reduce their ability to replicate...but it means keeping the plant moist all the time. That can be done if you have them under some automatic sprinkling cycle that wets the whole plant about every 4 hours....has to run only for a few minutes to achieve that. Not many folks have that setup though.

Malathion flat kills spider mites...cept it also kills all the other bugs that eat spider mites. So, if you spray your Alberta Spruce with Malathion...two things happen...you kill the live spider mites IF you spray them directly...meaning getting under the "leaves". It also means you kill all the spiders and fleas that feast on spider mites. It also means...you DON'T kill the eggs. Generally speaking, unless you're into spraying that stuff all the time, it usually leads to a worse problem...cause you don't kill the eggs...but you do kill the predators.

Then we have the soap theory. Well...soap makes water wetter...so it does what the watering does...cept it soaks in more...which is good. Problem is (again)...you got to do this spraying all the time to keep the mites wet...so they don't lay eggs.

Then we have the "flighty" theory...and it really works. It the use of lady bugs. Those critters eat thousands of mites a day...cept, they're mega sensitive to any kind of pesticide. They also don't like being "watered". If you "water" them, they fly away. I've used these things and they do the job...IF you keep the population of them up by buying some every week or better...and you DON'T use any pesticides...and you DON'T water. Well...frankly, that sucks too.

Then there's oil. This is what has worked for me. You spray the plants with horticultural oil. You soak it...from the top, from the side, from the bottom using a pump sprayer in which you've mixed the oil to the right mixture (read the directions). Five days later, you spray em with oil again. Then five days after that. Then five days after that. AND....you make SURE that you've sprayed all the plants in the area...cause spider mites live on everything...and they float through the air to get to their next "victim". You spray four times...and what you're doing is killing the eggs ability to hatch. The reason you do it every five days is to get all the egg generations killed...cause some percentage will hatch and give you spider mites that will lay more eggs. 

THE KICKER TO USING OIL...is to NOT use it when it's HOT HOT. Oil works in the cooler temps without letting the sun burn the plant. So, oil is NOT a good solution in June, July, and August...and much of September. But after that, spray away...and you will rid yourself of the mites until next year.

There's another solution too...using a mitecide. This is like a pesticide, but it's tuned to kill JUST the spider mites. The kicker with this one is that you need to know what KIND of spider mite you have...and that takes advice from a university usually.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Soapy water works by blocking "breathing" holes (bugs don't actually breathe). Ask a beekeeper.


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## Pagardener (Jan 10, 2008)

All of the Alberta Spruce I planted on my layout died. Two or three I planted in my flower gardens are doing fine. I replaced all of the dead ones with artificials from Michaels. One thing I noticed is that the spruce on the nort side of the property dies and those on the east and south side are doing ok so I thought that might be the problem. Who knows. Gardening has always been and 'try and see' exercise.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pagardener on 04 Oct 2009 10:30 AM 
All of the Alberta Spruce I planted on my layout died. Two or three I planted in my flower gardens are doing fine. I replaced all of the dead ones with artificials from Michaels. One thing I noticed is that the spruce on the nort side of the property dies and those on the east and south side are doing ok so I thought that might be the problem. Who knows. Gardening has always been and 'try and see' exercise. We kind of like ...SE 18 & PAGARDENER..
We have just about try everything to keep them going. 
They been there for 3 to 5 yrs and then starting to die. They are in Shade, Part sun. Lots of water. and now only have one 5 yrs old one left that set in the sun in the mornings.. Glad Michael has replacement at Xmas time with 3 in a box. 

Mike R. Sure had a interesting post on it but I think we are to late to start over replacing about 10 Alberta Spruce trees now. 
Out 2/3 acre back yard as PAGardener remembers when they were here, Yard takes a lot of water being it like a park and lots of other plants that I don't really have much problems with. 
Guess it has to be in its more natural area that they are raised in.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Alberta spruce also NEED acidic soil. Get a PH kit and test or just buy a box of MirAcid and feed them.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 04 Oct 2009 04:49 PM 
Alberta spruce also NEED acidic soil. Get a PH kit and test or just buy a box of MirAcid and feed them. 



Acid soil is not an issue in our area. The typical rocky/clay soil in our area runs around pH 5 (unless you're close to the Bay or in Southern Md where the soil get sandy and neutral). That's why rhodies and azaleas do so well here. DAS do need full sun to do well though.


-Brian


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## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

I've used Safer's Insecticidal Soap with success, but not in the heat of summer. It did change the color of the needles some, to a more yellow-green. But that sure beat having dead plants. A note: when DAS get too big for my little garden railroad, I have transplanted them elsewhere in my landscape. Some are many years old (the RR's been here 16 years), and are quite tall, and no problems with spider mites on them. But then, it is somewhat cooler here up near Lake Ontario... 
SandyR


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Sabdy makes a good point about DAS in cooler climates. Here in the Ottawa Valley with a long cold winter we have very limited problems with these small shrubs due to spider mites. Whenever plants are grown beyond their normal natural range, special care will be needed to see them through. The DAS is no different. If I lived in a much warmer climate, I would try to search out native species to meet my needs as they are generally much hardier and require much less care.

Regards ... Doug


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Watering is a large issue with Alberta Spruces. If they do not get the amout of water needed especially in the summer they will die. I installed a drip irrigation system a number of years ago and it cut down the number of trees that die to only a fraction.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Since this thread was started in September, what is the current state of the spruces? 

Did you treat them with anything? Are they dead or alive? 

Inquiring minds want to know, ha ha. 

Regards, Greg


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

1 alive and 8 dead. Maybe I should of done some hacking on them? Now use Michaels to replace them and don't have to trim or water them in the summer time when installed.. laf.
Eveything else ( Pines, Redwoods, Mex heather,Ferns, all type of min. shubs, and etc. ) doing fine over the years, but have to be trimmed often.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Trim and water! 

In our climate, I have never had a problem, I just trim a bit every 2 or 3 months and they keep their shape... 

Regards, Greg 

(I was really looking for SE18, the originator of the thread, to reply!)


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Sorry for late response, I thought by now this post would have died a slow death.

I used the hose to spray off the mites or whatever the critters might be.

That seemed to have limited the damage somewhat.

The brown areas are still there, but the spruces are still alive and not showing any other sign of dying.

Thanks for all the good advice.

Dave V


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We all know it takes a while to see what the results are. 

Getting any new growth? I have bought a few back from near death. 

Regards, Greg


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Don't have any pictures now as I'm at work but took these over the weekend. 

You can see to the right there's still a brown spot but otherwise seems to be doing fine. There are lots of other alberta spruces I have that exhibit the brown area from this past summer but so far none have died and all seem to be doing OK. 










In this second photo, you can see an alberta in the distance upper right photo. But to the left is a native Atlantic cedar (virginiana juniper). As a native specie, it of course thrives and I sort of like the open look to it compared to the clumpier alberta (which of course you can prune to look open). Downside to cedar is it grows to 30 feet so you can continually bonsai it or you can cut them down and replant them every 7 years. 










Cheers 
Dave V


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have all mine in pots in the ground. Periodically pull them out and clip off the roots trying to "escape"... also makes trimmint them easy, just put them on the counter at eye leve, instead of kneeling in the dirt. 

That's worked pretty well for me in controlling growth and making upkeep simple. 

Regards, Greg


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Regular and dwarf Alberta Spruce should be able to weather a drought without difficulty. 

Take a soil sample and a clipping of a dying branch [put it in a zip lock bag] to your local state Agricultural Extension office and ask the pros to examine both. They will give you a treatment plan for both the soil and the plants. 

As for spider mites, a non-toxic temporary solution is to wash them in a mild solution of warm [not hot] water and dishwashing detergent. DO NOT USE DISHWASHER DETERGENT OR YOU RUN THE RISK OF KILLING THE PLANT. 

Good luck, 

Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

for "safe" soap, you can use Ivory, but there are also soap sprays at home depot, etc. don't use Dawn, it's not the same type of soap. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I too plant mine in the pots, easier to dig up when they die! And they grow slower. I lost several last winter. This fall I sprayed mine a LOT with the 'Home Defense' insecticide and they seem to be doing fine, but we have had a wet winter, darned cold to boot, down to -17 or so.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been using the Savin bug spray for 1 1/2 years to treat mine. They still have some brown spots but are still alive. We also have had very wet year in 09 and this year is not starting out musch dryer. Later RJD


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

I saw expensive pyritrium (probably spelled wrong, the stuff from crusanthimums, which I also spelled wrong) in a hydroponics store that was supposed to kill spider mites. I was having a bit of a problem with them and I didn't want to pay such a high price. I knew that the pyritrium is also in dog and cat flea spray and that is much cheaper. So I sprayed with that and all of the little pests were gone. 

Doug


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool idea, will have to try that. 

"pyrethoids" 

Regards, Greg


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

Just read about this product that supposedly kills spider mites: 

One such recent product introduction is Ed Rosenthal’s Zero Tolerance Herbal Pesticide-Fungicide. It is refreshing to find a natural product that actually does what it says and smells great as well. Zero Tolerance is made of pure food ingredients and is bio-degradable and environmentally safe. It is effective at controlling spider mites, aphids, whiteflies, thrips, ants, caterpillars, gnats, root aphids, mealy bugs, and scale, as well as powdery mildew, and gray and white mold. Information on Zero Tolerance can be found at www.z-tolerance.com 

Doug


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