# S12 no reverse



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would the Accucraft 0-6-0 S12 run perfectly well in forward but not move in reverse. Which of the following was found to be the problem?


Timing
Reverser no working
bent valve rod
gasket
D valve worn out
binding in the drivers when reversing
lapping of valve parts lacking











Something from the above list had to be resolved; now runs well both forward and reverse.


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I say binding of the drivers in reverse


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

All of the above....


----------



## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Do we get a prize if we get the right answer? I pick number 2.


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

gasket or lapping would be my guess.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Obviously none of the above... it is using the wrong color of water.


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Charles, 

Number 8....You forgot to move the Johnson Bar?...... LOL 

We are all sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for the answer.


----------



## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

I forgot to study for this test. I hate pop quizes. I was never good at multiple choice questions. .........Well?


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Awaiting the answer to this is worse than waiting for a new loco to come out.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Whatever the cause, I'm sure it was Ryan's fault. hehehe


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02 Aug 2011 03:12 PM 
All of the above....


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 02 Aug 2011 09:31 PM 
Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 02 Aug 2011 03:12 PM 
All of the above....


----------



## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll go with #3...................


----------



## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd say timing, but that and a couple of other things on the list would not necessarily require as much dis-assembly as the photo shows. Does anything visible in the photo provide a clue? (Photo is a nice tutorial on how things come apart. Thank you.) 

Steve


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

#9 - It's made by Accucraft!!!!


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

#10 - It's NOT an Aster!


----------



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

#11 - You're lucky it runs at all as it appears to be in pieces!!! 
Can't think of any others. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Clue #1- When in reverse direction it remained stationary but the stack was talking to us....


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

That is odd. Were the wheels spinning? So the valves were opening and closing but no movement of the piston. Drivers were binding up?


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If the wheels were spinning, then there would be no problem.

The fact that the wheels rotate in forward means that they were probably not binding due to being put in reverse (but not absolutely eliminating reason 6.


So if the stack is talking I doubt if it was saying much of value... probably just hissing. Which means that steam was probably bypassing the D-valve to go directly up the stack. Since it was stated that it worked okay in forward then the valve surfaces must have been okay, so that eliminates reasons 5 and 7.

Something is causing the D to lift off the seat when in reverse so I would be looking for a bent part that has an effect when in reverse.

So if the problem is not just the wrong color of water, then it probably is a bent valve rod that is twisting when the radius rod is in the up position (reverse) thus lifting the D off the seat.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I say the linkage/timing of the Johnson Bar was wrong thus not shifting fully in reverse.

JJ


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Me, I've given up wondering. 

I'm having an early night. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Semper Vaporo, wrong colour of water, haha;-)... Great analysis, it must be bent valve rod. No other reason would be so hidden so as to lead to such a wrecking decomposition of a locomotive;-) Best, Zubi


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Other than from a factory error or a fall, what can cause the valve rod to bend?


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

[No message]


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 03 Aug 2011 04:20 PM 
How about a little hangman....for "fill in the blank"


[] [] [] [] [] []


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Can I have a "T"?


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Aug 2011 10:13 AM 
Other than from a factory error or a fall, what can cause the valve rod to bend? 

In the 1:1 world a bent rod could be caused by a hydrolock in the cylinder. A foaming boiler would carry over water to the steam lines and fill one end of the valve chest or drive cylinder and, water being incompressable would stop the piston from moving, but the drive pushing the piston may have enough power to cause the failure of some component in the group. Often the failure is blowing the end off the cylinder, but can result in bending of some other component.

BUT, in this instance, the bent rod (assumed!) is pushing a slide ("D") valve, not a piston, so hydrolock would not be possible in the valve area. More likely, someone picked the engine up and got a finger into the valve gear near the junction of the radius rod and valve stem. Them thar parts is thin and easily bent.

When you pick up a Live Steamer, you need to be sure you get hold of something strong enough to support the rest of the engine without damage. Ideally, pick it up by the drive wheels (they support the engine all the time anyway!) but be sure you don't squeeze them toward each other and get them out of gauge. And be careful of any rigging near them. The Aster Mike has dummy brake hangers that can bend and possibly get pressed against the wheels and really become (very effective!) brakes! There is also the dummy air compressor on the Fireman's side that can get bent into the plane of the drive rods and cause the engine to rock from side to side as the drive rod hits it. (I have personal experience with these two!)


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03 Aug 2011 05:08 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 03 Aug 2011 10:13 AM 
Other than from a factory error or a fall, what can cause the valve rod to bend? 

In the 1:1 world a bent rod could be caused by a hydrolock in the cylinder. A foaming boiler would carry over water to the steam lines and fill one end of the valve chest or drive cylinder and, water being incompressable would stop the piston from moving, but the drive pushing the piston may have enough power to cause the failure of some component in the group. Often the failure is blowing the end off the cylinder, but can result in bending of some other component.

BUT, in this instance, the bent rod (assumed!) is pushing a slide ("D") valve, not a piston, so hydrolock would not be possible in the valve area. More likely, someone picked the engine up and got a finger into the valve gear near the junction of the radius rod and valve stem. Them thar parts is thin and easily bent.

When you pick up a Live Steamer, you need to be sure you get hold of something strong enough to support the rest of the engine without damage. Ideally, pick it up by the drive wheels (they support the engine all the time anyway!) but be sure you don't squeeze them toward each other and get them out of gauge. And be careful of any rigging near them. The Aster Mike has dummy brake hangers that can bend and possibly get pressed against the wheels and really become (very effective!) brakes! There is also the dummy air compressor on the Fireman's side that can get bent into the plane of the drive rods and cause the engine to rock from side to side as the drive rod hits it. (I have personal experience with these two!)


Something like this happened to my Big Boy. D_ valve spindle bent at a 90 degree angle. It shut doen forward motor instantly. Still do not know what caused it and after replacing spindle have had no trouble with that problem at all. Go figure.


----------



## Gravy Train (Mar 6, 2011)

Lucky # 7


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03 Aug 2011 05:08 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 03 Aug 2011 10:13 AM 
Other than from a factory error or a fall, what can cause the valve rod to bend? 



When you pick up a Live Steamer, you need to be sure you get hold of something strong enough to support the rest of the engine without damage. 

You mean me picking my chassis up by the two expansion links was not a good idea?















J/king of course.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, the resolution to the problem involved items 1-7 (in a process of elimination) but the final two aspects employed seems to be the engine on "the right track": lapping and gasket. Most interesting that the problem was not resolved without gasket remedy.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Aug 2011 05:44 PM 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03 Aug 2011 05:08 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 03 Aug 2011 10:13 AM 
Other than from a factory error or a fall, what can cause the valve rod to bend? 



When you pick up a Live Steamer, you need to be sure you get hold of something strong enough to support the rest of the engine without damage. 

You mean me picking my chassis up by the two expansion links was not a good idea?












J/king of course.











There is nothing wrong with the idea; it will cause no damage at all... 



However... Putting that idea into practice WILL cause damage to occur.










(I still think the problem with the S12 is using the wrong color of water.)


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Nah, I think the issue was resolved because you had that engine blocked up on two Altoids boxes, Those are very curiously strong mints after all.


----------



## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

I wasn't even aware that these "live-steam" engines could even GO backwards. Hmm... And to think, all this time...........(hehe)


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

So I was right, Thank you


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

humble aren't you Jeff.


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah, I was taking a guess that Charles posted all the problems they found when they tore into the engine.... I suspect some are relative to the problem they were fixing, and others would have become a problem down the road. Good work on their part for being very thorough.


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Good guess. I was just ribbing ya.


----------

