# AML 0-6-0 slows down after ~10 minutes



## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Folks,

I'm a newbie to live steam and could use some help. I recently purchased an AML 0-6-0 live steamer (first version with non-vanderbilt tender). I've only run it perhaps 8 times so far. It's a beauty to watch, but I've noticed that it consistently seems to slow down (lose power) after running continuously for ~10 min. It still has plenty of steam (steady at ~40 psi) and plenty of water. If I let stop briefly it seems to help, but it soon slows down again.


Any thoughts or suggestions? I have noticed that even after a full run (~30 minutes) that the oil reservoir is nowhere near empty ... closer to 3/4 full. I'm wondering if the problem is that the pistons are not getting enough lubrication.


Thanks,
-Bret


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It might be you need to warm up the water in the water bath around the fuel tank, if it has one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Really sounds like lube... since you say pressure is good... if pressure dropped, then you might suspect gas supply. 

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Does the locomotive have the newer lubricator with the needle valve on it? If so, try opening it another 1/2 turn.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Any thoughts or suggestions? I have noticed that even after a full run (~30 minutes) that the oil reservoir is nowhere near empty ... closer to 3/4 full. I'm wondering if the problem is that the pistons are not getting enough lubrication.


Thanks,
-Bret


Bret
Was the lubricator "full" or 3/4 on each of the runs. Is always 10 mins into the run? Are all the conditions of each run the same?

cb


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 Nov 2011 01:58 PM 
Really sounds like lube... since you say pressure is good... if pressure dropped, then you might suspect gas supply. 

Greg I would have also suggested the water bath but like Greg said, if you have good pressure it can't be that the fuel is the problem. My Aristo will slow down if the water bath gets too cold. But then the press drops off significantly. If you've got good pressure it sure seems like it has to be the lube.

Bob


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 19 Nov 2011 11:58 AM 
It might be you need to warm up the water in the water bath around the fuel tank, if it has one. Hmmm.... seems Jerry had an insight that needs to be determined if the tender water was warmed or not....credit where it is due.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

He stated the pressure is "STEADY @ 40 PSI" with plenty of water. If he said the pressure was dropping after 10 minutes, the water bath would be a logical possibility, however he is maintaing pressure so more fire is not needed so I don't understand how a warm water around the fuel tank will solve his problem. It sounds more like it's starving for oil.


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Dwight,

I have the version shown on the link below. I don't recall there being a needle valve ... where would it be?


http://www.americanmainline.com/loco-USRA-LS.htm

-Bret


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Bret..........when the engine gets to the slo down state.............shut the engine down, let it cool and in a measuring glass check how much water you really have left............low water can yeild normal pressure but not enough volume....site glasses have been know to lie. Also dont fill the lubricator to the top........leave some space.............On that engine start with 300 ml of water.


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Charles,


I'm not sure if it is exactly 10 minutes ... somewhere around half way through a full run. I think everything is pretty much tha same each time. I fill the lubricator before each run until it is about 1/4" from the top. After each run, I open the stop cock under the oil reservoir to clean it out and release the remaining steam and decent amount of oil would always come out. So recently I carefully let the steam out of the water filler hole so I could check the oil. I didn't measure it (I will next time) but it was down maybe 3/8 ~1/2" from the top. As far as I'm aware, everything is the same each time.


Thanks, 

-Bret


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

I always just use room temp water. I'm fairly sure it becomes weaker when at the same pressure ... but it can't hurt to try warm water so I'll give a shot next time. thanks for the suggestion!

-Bret


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

OK. On my next run I'll try to be a little more scientific. I'll try the following ...

- I'll use a warm water bath

- I'll fill the lubricator to 1/2~3/4 and measure the distance to the top before the run.

- I'll fill the tank with 300 mL of water. 
- When the engine begins to slow, I'll note the time and I'll shut it down and let it cool.
- After the run, I'll check measure how much water is left and measure the oil level.


Sound good? Anything else I should do? 


Thanks!
-Bret


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 19 Nov 2011 05:40 PM 
He stated the pressure is "STEADY @ 40 PSI" with plenty of water. If he said the pressure was dropping after 10 minutes, the water bath would be a logical possibility, however he is maintaing pressure so more fire is not needed so I don't understand how a warm water around the fuel tank will solve his problem. It sounds more like it's starving for oil. Jeff
Interesting thesis given last summer on the usage (lack thereof). According to the presenter there is no need for steam oil in our engines. The presentation pointed to water as all that is necessary (at best a slight bit of oil) and the proofs given was a 100+ year old steam engine still going and along with a current product line that does not use lubricator/steam oil. Not that I am promoting this just a point of view given at NSS. Personally, I have seen lack of performance due to inefficient steam oil.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bstott on 19 Nov 2011 06:53 PM 
Hi Charles,


I'm not sure if it is exactly 10 minutes ... somewhere around half way through a full run. I think everything is pretty much tha same each time. I fill the lubricator before each run until it is about 1/4" from the top. After each run, I open the stop cock under the oil reservoir to clean it out and release the remaining steam and decent amount of oil would always come out. So recently I carefully let the steam out of the water filler hole so I could check the oil. I didn't measure it (I will next time) but it was down maybe 3/8 ~1/2" from the top. As far as I'm aware, everything is the same each time.


Thanks, 

-Bret



Bret 
"but it was down maybe 3/8 ~1/2" from the top" You are indicating usage of oil that is more than enough to lubicator during a 30 minute run.

I doubt that you would have low water level in the boiler within 10 minutes (does that include time getting up to steam pressure?) unless it was a long period of time getting up to steam but SalM has a good point about available steam in regards to water level/volume. I really do not think that 40 PSI even if it is held throughout (question on that) is what is necessary to operation over 30 minute period (throttle setting during run?). 


Can you obtain more than 40 PSI or is that max for the settings? 
How long to get up to 40 PSI? 

What is the air temperature during this runs?

Are each of the 8 runs relatively the same as to weather, train, speed, and track?
What type of "steam oil?"
Have you looked to see the color of the gas burn?


Could be other related problems: valve, piston ring. 


Look forward to more information


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an Accucraft Climax which has a relatively small boiler and I need to add water more frequently than 10 minute intervals. The gas tank is large enough to make steam for about 30 minutes, so I have to top off the water in the boiler several times during each run. Do you have a hand pump in your tender to add water? Or, have you installed a Goodall valve? Based on my experience, I suspect that your water level may be getting too low. Once you figure out your loco's eccentricities and master them, I'm sure you'll get many hours of enjoyable steaming.


Llyn


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't recall there being a needle valve ... where would it be? It would be right at the top of, and going through, the lubricator. Sounds like you don't have one. 

After further thought, I agree with Charles. I doubt it's insufficient steam oil. But what the **** do I know? hehehe I'm sure you'll eventually figure it out with the help available here. 

BTW, you do have everything else lubed with a good machine/turbine oil, right? Rods, journals, eccentrics, valve gear, crossheads, all pivot points, etc.?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another thought: My Guinness when placed into its haulage wagon also slowed down after a couple of minutes. I found out that some tolerances were too tight and the wagon started to seize up when everything got warm (hot?). After relaxing these tolerances a bit it now runs like a charm.
Regards


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Was just about to post that whether a steam engine needs oil for lube or not, the amount, has got to do with tolerances/clearances. 

Regards, Greg


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Charles, 

Thanks for the thoughts. Here are answers to your questions ... 

Can you obtain more than 40 PSI or is that max for the settings? 
> Yes, the pressure release goes off at ~60 psi. I have been running it at around 40 psi. 

How long to get up to 40 PSI? 
> From a cold fill up, perhaps 10-15 minutes ... but I haven't timed it. 

What is the air temperature during this runs? 
> Both warm and cool, although it has been cool recently (45~50F). 

Are each of the 8 runs relatively the same as to weather, train, speed, and track? 
> I've had the unit for a couple of months. Temperature has been warm and cool. I've tried it on a couple of tracks most recently at a friend's near where I live (Menlo Park, CA). 

What type of "steam oil?" 
> Accucraft 

Have you looked to see the color of the gas burn? 
> Blue. 

BTW, you do have everything else lubed with a good machine/turbine oil, right? 
> I've been oiling (light duty oil) the linkages around the wheels that I can see move. Are there other areas I should inspect/lube? 

Henner -- What do you mean by relaxing the tolerances? I am newbie ... what adjustments should I check/correct/relax. 

Thanks! 
-Bret


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Every AML 0-6-0 I've ever seen runs pretty darned good right out of the box. *Do you have a Goodall valve installed and how often are you adding water?* The water level should be maintained above the top of the flue for proper operations. Letting the water get too low may do serious damage to you boiler! It sounds like the water level gets too low to me.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bstott on 20 Nov 2011 12:34 AM 
Hi Charles, 

Thanks for the thoughts. Here are answers to your questions ... 

Can you obtain more than 40 PSI or is that max for the settings? 
> Yes, the pressure release goes off at ~60 psi. I have been running it at around 40 psi. 

[*]The locomotive should be maintaining pressure closer to 60 pis [/list]

How long to get up to 40 PSI? 
> From a cold fill up, perhaps 10-15 minutes ... but I haven't timed it. 

[*]10-15 minutes is a long time to bring up to pressure(we can get our coal fired K4 up to steam quicker than 10-15 min. about half that time)
[/list]

What is the air temperature during this runs? 

> Both warm and cool, although it has been cool recently (45~50F).

[*]45-50 F probably need both butane/propane mix and warm bath around gas tank 
[/list]

Are each of the 8 runs relatively the same as to weather, train, speed, and track? 
> I've had the unit for a couple of months. Temperature has been warm and cool. I've tried it on a couple of tracks most recently at a friend's near where I live (Menlo Park, CA). 

What type of "steam oil?" 
> Accucraft 

Have you looked to see the color of the gas burn? 
> Blue. 

[*]Once up to 60 PSI, but drops to 40 psi have you turned up the burner setting allowing more fuel to be burnt thus higher BTU. Caution not to over do this just enough to keep a bit more heat. Might have to put a "tent" for a radiant burner in place to allow for heat to stay in the boiler and not go so quickly up the stack. 
[/list]

BTW, you do have everything else lubed with a good machine/turbine oil, right? 
> I've been oiling (light duty oil) the linkages around the wheels that I can see move. Are there other areas I should inspect/lube? 

Henner -- What do you mean by relaxing the tolerances? I am newbie ... what adjustments should I check/correct/relax. 

[*]Given it is a "new engine" could need a few more runs to allow moving parts (valve, pistons, etc) in the steam chest to "loosen" up or wear in.
[/list]

Thanks! 
-Bret


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Comparing the running of my Aristo Mikado with my Accucraft Rubys and Forneys, engines with the gas tank in the cab tend to increase speed during the first minutes as the boiler heat transfers to the gas tank and increases the butane pressure. Whereas those with the gas in the tender, like the Aristos and your AML, tend to slow down because there is no heat transfer from the boiler, but the boiling butane continues to cool the gas tank lowering the pressure. So I am guessing that you will have to increase the fire during the run. The drop may not be enough to see easily on the pressure gauge.

Just something you have to do. None of my engines maintain constant speed throughout the run without adjustment.


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Folks, 

Thanks for the suggestions and wealth of information! Ill give it another try and report back. 

Thanks, 
-Bret


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Folks,

I took the 0-6-0 out today. I filled the lubricator until it was right at where the copper tube connects. After the run (~30 min) the oil level did not appear to change (see pic below). I can see little specs of oil residue on the loco after the run so at least a little must be getting through. How much should I expect to see the oil level drop?


The warm water bath made a noticeable difference -- thanks for the pointer! The burner was much louder than normal and the water came up to temp much more quickly. About half way through the run, the water was luke warm so I refilled it with warm water and the burner roared back again.


On this run, I filled the boiler with 300 mL of water which was not quite to the top of the water glass. The run time (after coming up to temperature) was 25 minutes. At the end of the run there was 25 mL of water left.


All of that said, the loco still seems to lose power. I set the throttle for ~35 smph (I have a caboose with a speedometer). It chugged nicely for the first five minutes. After 5 minutes it started getting slower and slower. At 10 minutes, it could no longer make it over a small hump in track without giving it more throttle (which it was gliding right by initially). The pressure during the run seemed pretty steady (~45 psi). At about 15 minutes, the pressure was starting to dip below 40 psi. It was at this point that I checked the bath water (which was luke cool) and refilled it with warm water. This rejuvenated the burner and got the pressure back up to 50~55 where the pressure valve starts releasing. After a few laps, and even with the pressure release going, it was still having trouble getting over the hump again and eventually would stall on it unless I gave it more throttle (beyond the point that was need during the first five minutes).


One observation that I made was that during the first five minutes, the loco glided along at a fairly steady pace -- only slowing a little around curves and over the hump and picking up a little more speed on the straights and the downhill side of the hump. As the power loss became more noticeable so did the change in speed -- it would slow to a near stall on the hump (which is slight) and then race down the other side (similarly, the difference in speed on curves and straights was more pronounced). I have no idea what this might point to.


Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions. If there is anyone local that might be able to take a look, I would really appreciate it (Menlo Park, CA).


-Bret


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## Trainwreckfilms (Aug 19, 2009)

Brett,


if you need to do more testing let me know! We LOVED HAVING YOUR ENGINE HERE! I did notice that the sight glass was very unreliable when we ran it. When it was toward the end of the run Im thinking low water may have been the issue of decrease in performance. Maybe we just have to fit your locomotive with a Good-all(Spelling?) valve!

Again thanks For bringing it over!












Colin John Camarillo
Camarillo Pacific Railroad
web.me.com/camarillopacific


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

Bret, I cant see your picture so Im not sure this will help. I had a Roundhouse Vale of Rheidol loco with the same problem. Next time you run it and it slows down try pouring cold water over the lubricator body. If the lubricator gets too hot the steam will not condense to water in it and no oil will be displaced. On my loco the lubricator was in the side tank and getting very warm. Help from a friend pointed me in the right direction and I then moved the lubricator to the cab. This completely cured this loco. Proved to me that our little steam loco's need lubrication in the cylinders. 
May not be your problem but its worth trying. 
Dougie Leaver


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the picture that Bret included in his reply.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

If you had filled the lubricator to the copper pipe using that reference fill mark open the drain art the bottom of the lubricator. Its a small brass hex with a T handle of wire directly below the cab. Once unscrewed 1-2 turns tap you finger on the open top opf the lubricator. It will pressurise the oil to push the water out that has collected at the bottom. The oil level wil never be any different until yuou remove the water that had condensed on there to raise up the oil and push into the pipe.. That is how the lubricarot is designed. If there is no water in it after 30 mins that is may be our culprit. Also can you see a small hole in the copper pipe inside the lubricator? very hard to tell in your photo but there is a shiny speck in there that may be the hole. Do you have any wire that you can use to measure that hole? It should be about a .040" or a #60 drill


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

On this run, I filled the boiler with 300 mL of water which was not quite to the top of the water glass. The run time (after coming up to temperature) was 25 minutes. At the end of the run there was 25 mL of water left.

Bret.......25 ml is too low a water level for safe operation. Suggest you get a Goodall valve and water bottle to keep the water level at half glass. To check the lubricator you have to draw out the oil/water and "see" how much of whats in the lubricator is actually water. If it is all oil and no water let us know...that can be fixed. By the way the goodall valves are on the Accucraft site or ebay.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been oiling (light duty oil) the linkages around the wheels that I can see move. Are there other areas I should inspect/lube? The wheel journals (loco and tender), crossheads (what the piston rods are connected that slides back and forth), rods where they connect to the wheels and the crosshead, every pivoting point on the valve gear... everything that rotates, slides, pivots, or moves. 3in1 oil in the blue can is what I use (not the red can). While not the source of your problem, it will become a problem if you don't oil around. Like Dave Hottmann always says, "Oil is cheaper than parts."


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The oil level wil never be any different until yuou remove the water 
Bret, 
I meant to comment yesterday - you indicated you were opening the lubricator drain while the engine was hot and had steam pressure, in order to blow the oil and water out. That's a big waste of oil. Let the engine cool down completely (loosen the filler wwith a rag (it will be hot) to release pressure and avoid oil being drawn back in as it cools.) 

When it is cool open the top of the lubricator and then open the bottom drain with a paper towel or similar underneath. Water should start to drip out fairly rapidly, and after a 30 min run there should be an appreciable amount. When the water stops and you start to see a little oil squeeze out then close the drain underneath. Look in the top with a flashlight or similar, and you should see some oil left, but way down inside. Fill it back to the level of the steam pipe. 

Also can you see a small hole in the copper pipe inside the lubricator? very hard to tell in your photo but there is a shiny speck in there 
Take a real good look at that tiny hole. I see the shiny speck - Accucraft are notorious for leaving manufacturing residue in their engines, so there may be some dirt or a shaving blocking your steam hole. 

.......25 ml is too low a water level for safe operation. 
I've been thinking about your problem over these 3 pages, and my opinion is that you are running out of water when the loco slows and loses power. The water glass is unreliable, and your symptoms are all those of an engine with plenty of steam but no water. 

The loco is not very big, and 30 mins is about as long as you should run before filling it. The gas will not run out first, unfortunately. As Sal says, you can get a Goodall Valve and squirt bottle from Accucraft (check the 'estore' link on the right top of their main site.) It will allow you to add water every 10-15 minutes until the gas runs out. If you really want to run for an hour or so, you can refill the gas while the loco is hot (turn off the burner first then re-light it,) squirt in some water and away you go. The lubricator should be good for at least an hour (if it isn't blocked!)


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Bret,
get in touch with Bill Allan. He lives in Woodside. He has a big layout and as scratch builder (Quadruplex) experience with tweaking an engine. Another option is to show up at one of one of our workshops on Saturdays in Fremont, where can will meet all the experts. Shoot me a PM.
Regards


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## bstott (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Folks, 

I unscrewed the lubricator drain (thanks, Jason!) and let the water come out. When the water was out, the oil level was at the very bottom ... perhaps 1/4" left. So I guess this means it's getting plenty of lubrication. 

I'll order a goodall valve + filler bottle. How do I know when it is time to refill? Do I go by time (every ~15 min?), water level in the sight glass (refill when it drops below halfway? unreliable?), or by the loco's performance (the slow down I've been seeing?). When I refill via the goodall valve, how much should I put in (to the top of the sight glass?)? 

Also, I was quite surprised at how quickly the butane tank cooled the water bath (I filled it until the water just covered the butane tank) and how big of a difference it made when warm water was put back in. Do folks typically disconnect the tender, dump the water, and the refill or do something different? Does anyone use a heater? 

-Bret 



Thanks, 
-Bret


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bstott on 21 Nov 2011 12:17 PM 
Hi Folks, 

I unscrewed the lubricator drain (thanks, Jason!) and let the water come out. When the water was out, the oil level was at the very bottom ... perhaps 1/4" left. So I guess this means it's getting plenty of lubrication. 

I'll order a goodall valve + filler bottle. How do I know when it is time to refill? Do I go by time (every ~15 min?), water level in the sight glass (refill when it drops below halfway? unreliable?), or by the loco's performance (the slow down I've been seeing?). When I refill via the goodall valve, how much should I put in (to the top of the sight glass?)? 

Also, I was quite surprised at how quickly the butane tank cooled the water bath (I filled it until the water just covered the butane tank) and how big of a difference it made when warm water was put back in. Do folks typically disconnect the tender, dump the water, and the refill or do something different? Does anyone use a heater? 

-Bret 



Thanks, 
-Bret 

Bret
As to adding water if you indicate within 10-15 minutes (including up to pressure time) that after 5 addition minutes there is a reduced performance then:

[*]Once the locomotive up to pressure (60 PSI) then "top of the boiler" to the top of the sight glass.[*]During the running time refill about 7 minutes based on your data but don't wait until the pressure is low due to the fact that the water you are putting in the boiler at best will be room temp thus having to heat up in order to get steam up again.[*]Once the boiler is full then turn up the fuel/burner to get back to 60 PSI (remember you do not want the fire in the smoke)[*]As to tender water bath: 1) if drain plug then drain off some during boiler refill and add warm water, 2) install a valve/feed-line from boiler allowing water or steam (depends on valve location) from boiler into the tender, 3) drop a chemical hand warmer into the tender or microwaved bag of rice, etc
[/list]


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

How do I know when it is time to refill? Do I go by time (every ~15 min?), water level in the sight glass (refill when it drops below halfway? unreliable?) 
As we know the water level in the sight glass is unreliable, don't wait until it gets down to 1/4 full. Try to keep it in the 1/2 to 3/4 full range, which means adding 20-30 squirts [a guess - you test it] every 5-10 minutes. You definitely don't want to fill it to the top - it will get pushed into the steam line and start locking the cylkinders and spraying out the stack. 

Do folks typically disconnect the tender, dump the water, and the refill 
No. Too many pipes/wires between the two usually. 

While adding warm water will help in a cold environment, I don't usually find the cool water hurts much. When it is really cold, (freezing) I take my mini soup heater and boil some water before even filling the boiler! (Want a pic of us hardy live steamers running in 20 degree weather?)


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a observation from a live steamer 1.5"/ft scale. A steam engine IS a steam engine, no matter what scale or size. When we run our ride-on Mogul, we are constantly adding coal and water to maintain pressure. Depends on grades and loads you are pulling. We might add water every 3-4 minutes. Sometimes more time. Sometimes less time. The air temp at the time you are running can be a factor. Steam engines can be very touchy and that's why we love'em so! The lack of water sure seems to be the problem. Without water you will NOT make steam. Period.









The lubricator COULD be a problem. The one on our Mogul is about 1.25" square by about an inch deep. We usually fill it to the top. It is a mechanical lubricator with linkage to the valve stem on the rod to the seamchest. After about 1 1/2 hours of running, it will be down about 1/2. This is on a loco with 2.0" diameter bore and 3" stroke, just to give you a relative size comparison. This loco is over thirty-five years old. No problems with engine.









Steam is cool to run, but they are definitely NOT for the faint of heart. They all react different.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bret
Here is a photo of a heat line installation in our shop:










Here is a good all valve that uses a quick disconnect that does not require hold the water line in the goodall valve:


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## Steamer Bill (Nov 22, 2010)

Charles,
What is the source for your Goodall valve? I really like the looks of that one.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Bret,
Since you're Goodall will be in the turret with the throttle - always make sure you close the throttle before adding water. Else you will be getting water in the steam line to the cylinders.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steamer Bill on 21 Nov 2011 07:05 PM 
Charles,
What is the source for your Goodall valve? I really like the looks of that one. 

Bill
We customize them from a stock piece.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

...anyone else have an AML 0-6-0? 
If so, how much oil do you use in a run?


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

My AML 0-6-0 uses quite a bit of oil. After one run the oil level isn't visible anymore, and I add quite a bit more on every run.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By benshell on 22 Nov 2011 11:18 AM 
My AML 0-6-0 uses quite a bit of oil. After one run the oil level isn't visible anymore, and I add quite a bit more on every run. 

Ben,
I hope you mean "the oil level isn't visible" after you let the water out of the bottom of the lubricator ? 
If it is working properly, you should be adding at least 1/2 a lubricator's worth of oil for every full boiler.


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Pete, I've never let the water out of the bottom of the lubricator (didn't know about that, until I read this thread), but there's always something left in the lubricator because I always suck out any water/oil left with an eyedropper before adding new oil. I'm just saying there's not usually much left after a full run. The oil level drops significantly, unlike the picture Bret posted above.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

didn't know about that, until I read this thread 
I could say "Whoa, the power of the Internet", but actually it is more about the lousy Accucraft documentation. I don't think they've updated the user booklet since my C-16 (~2001?) 

I always suck out any water/oil left with an eyedropper 
Accucraft probably gave you a small syringe? With a piece of thin brass tubing pushed on the end, you can probably get it down to the bottom of the lubricator and suck out the water easily - the oil feels more difficult to pull out, so you can stop and leave the oil there. 

However, I guess at this point you're doing it the easy way, by opening the drain! 

The oil level drops significantly 
Two things here. One - if you are sucking all the oil+water out, it is tough to tell how much oil you used. Two - the visible level shouldn't drop at all . 

The lubricator works by condensing steam into water, which sinks to the bottom of the shaft and thus lifts some oil up to the little feed hole, where it passes out and down the pipe to the cylinders. This isn't a 1-2 process - it is continuous, with steam passing the hole in the lubricator and taking oil with it, plus some steam going in to the lubricator and condensing. 

As the end of the run, the oil should be visible around the level of the hole in the pipe at the side of the shaft. You can't see it, but the bottom of the shaft is mostly water. 
If the oil level drops, you are losing oil/water somewhere. Maybe the drain isn't fully closed? The cap isn't tight? I've never seen it happen - maybe Charles or someone has some ideas?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By benshell on 23 Nov 2011 10:48 AM 
Pete, I've never let the water out of the bottom of the lubricator (didn't know about that, until I read this thread), but there's always something left in the lubricator because I always suck out any water/oil left with an eyedropper before adding new oil. I'm just saying there's not usually much left after a full run. The oil level drops significantly, unlike the picture Bret posted above. Ben
I assume a run is about 30 minutes without goodall valve. If the "run" is extensive that would explain the difference between your levels and Bret's. Given the very low level of oil left over and the lack of any description of excess oil on the engine, dropping off the frame or the track maybe at the tee feeding both cylinders or gaskets but that would show via steam leaks along with a possible reduction in performance. Two other factors: weight of oil and the second would be the size of the oil feed hole in the pipe line running through the lubricator.


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Pete and Charles, thanks for the ideas, and the awareness that something might be wrong. Yes, I'm referring to a 25-30 minute run without a goodall value, pulling 5 or 6 cars on mostly level track. I'll have to look into this more in a few days (after Thanksgiving). I didn't realize the oil was supposed to be replaced with water! It doesn't seem to be doing that. I should probably re-read the instruction manual too. When I first got it I found it to be pretty confusing so I just brought the engine to the Sacramento steam up group and let more experienced people help get me started.


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Ben,

I sent you a PM..


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By benshell on 23 Nov 2011 08:24 PM 
Pete and Charles, thanks for the ideas, and the awareness that something might be wrong. Yes, I'm referring to a 25-30 minute run without a goodall value, pulling 5 or 6 cars on mostly level track. I'll have to look into this more in a few days (after Thanksgiving). I didn't realize the oil was supposed to be replaced with water! It doesn't seem to be doing that. I should probably re-read the instruction manual too. When I first got it I found it to be pretty confusing so I just brought the engine to the Sacramento steam up group and let more experienced people help get me started. 
Ben
Seems it is working for you. As you say, I always suck out water/oil with eyedropper. The only question is it using too much oil? You have not indicated extreme oil on engine, train,etc and the locomotive is running fine for 30 minutes, I do not think it is a "problem" each engine is a bit different. Probably just a bit bigger hole in the pick up line of the lube tube.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Personally, I never use those lubricator drains. I have one of the Accucraft all-brass syringes that I bought years ago specifically for sucking out the used oil/water. KISS principle. I find it far easier than messing with the drain valve on which the T-handle is always way too short for comfort. The only exceptions are my two Accucraft 4-4-0s. The first locomotives Accucraft produced with a needle valve in the lubricator, it's located dead center making syringe insertion impossible. They have since offset the needle valve.


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