# WELDERS, AS IN TWO LEGGED



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This question is for  guys who weld for a living 
 
Have yhou ever taken a course in welding?
 
Is there  any  books out there  that one could read and inprove his  skills  or  lack of them








 
I am not doing too bad on my  wire feed  welding
 
I would like to  work on   stick welding a little


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I took a course in the local adult school. It was very helpful.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

John,

If you have a local community college near you, that would be the way to go. I know that when I was finishing my Gene Allen, 1 1/2" scale live steam ten-wheeler, I took a welding class at Glendale Community, to finish-up some welding I needed to do. They even helped me with welding extra "goodies" to the boiler! The "night instructors" usually enjoy having "hobbyists" in the classroom.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I did tech school, got an associates degree in 18 months..... was certified in structural, pipe and pressure vessel when I got out. An evening CC class is good, but there is no real substitute for burning a BUNCH of rods. 

If you want to REALLY learn to weld, oxy-fuel welding is like Zen. 

And not to pick a nit, but machines are welders, people are weldors... and most supervisors could give a rat's heinie about that.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

John
What are you wanting to weld that you would rather use a stick welder for. There are definatly places for stick welders, unless you are wanting to do something besides GRR projects, I am thinking the MIG will serve you the best, I will most assuradly agree with the gentlmans statement above, the best teacher can instruct, but experience is what makes a person good. Burning rods is the best way to learn to lay a good bead. I have noticed one of the problems that beginners have is they fail to STRIKE the arc like strking a match to get the rod started.








Dennis


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I want to do some heavy welding on the tractor and build some forks for the bucket on the front end loader. 

Burning sticks with out knowing what good weld looks like is a waste of sticks. 

I have welded my forks three times and the welds keep breaking. 

I figure that I must be doing something wrong.

I must not have enough heat or something to join the two pieces of metal together. 

I was hoping there was a book of some kind to help me 

If you take a course at the JR collage what books do they use?


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

John, the only suggesting I can give on welding your forks is heat the place up first 
with a org-fuel until about red than weld together. The weld will go depper into 
the metal and make a stronger weld. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

What sticks are you trying to use? Diameter? Amperage? AC, straight DC? reverse DC? 

No way wire feed will work on heavy stuff like that, unless you use a good heavy dual shield wire with high amps and feed rate. 

Best suggestion is V groove the areas you want to weld, then use reverse DC. If you can turn the piece to weld everything flat, then go with 5/32" 7024 - That rod will do most of the work for you and the slag will just peel off, but it is no good for out of position work. Actually "best" in this application is probably a 6010 or 6011 root with 7018 fill and a hard cover pass for wear resistance... A lot of chipping and grinding, but you will get an excellent joint. 

As for how you know a good bead... 








http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/ 
http://uhcs.me.utexas.edu/courses/modules/smaw.html


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

YEA Now were getting some where.

This is exactyly what I was looking for.

The two links are great 

Now I can go out and burn sticks.

I have a stick welder like in the background of the second link

Thank all of you guys who took the time to post


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ, one thing that made the biggest difference for me in learning to weld was when my instructor showed me how to start a puddle and then move the puddle along the joint by moving the rod. Keep the puddle a uniform size. Don't let it get too big or too small or disappear. In general I like to make the puddle about the diameter of the rod including the flux. Mutiple passes as described above are the way to go on the heavy stuff. Get some scrap and practice, practice, practice!!! Good luck.


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## terry_n_85318 (Jan 3, 2008)

John, 

All of the community colleges offer welding classes. The Vocational school would also be a good place to ask. 

Terry


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I never took a course. I Just read the two-page instruction manual that came with my old Craftsman. (Lincoln, in those days.)

The big secret to stick welding is to learn to watch the puddle. It takes practice. For awhile all you're going to have is 'cat turds' (a real industrial term.) That's what the beads will look like, though. Practice running beads on a piece of 1/4" steel.

After awhile, you learn how to 'puddle and move'. Then you can leave those professional-looking 'ridges' in your bead. I was good enough I did it at McDonnell Aircraft and got it bought off by inspection. (Not for flight--that takes certification.)

Make life easy at first. Run a steep chamfer with a grinder on both edges of two plates you want to weld together. That leaves you a valley to fill with weld. Clamp 'em in place. Just make a 1-inch run at a time. Stop, see what you've done, and start over. Clamping is a necessary part of welding, anyway. Learn to clamp up your work well and be happy.

WEAR A LONG SLEEVED SHIRT, BUTTON IT AT THE THROAT, WEAR WELDER'S GLOVES AND WHEN POSSIBLE, AN APRON. If you wear a cap, turn it backwards to block out as much light coming in from behind as you can.

I know this really stupid kid who welded up his broken brush hog. It was hot in the sunshine, so this dummy took off his t-shirt. He got a nasty, unforgettable 'sunburn' on his chest and arms that took about two weeks to go away. I won't say who it was, so don't ask.

Learn to listen to the 'frying' sound. When it's 'right', it sounds right. Else, you'll hear a wet, splattering sound. You're drowning your spark. Or what sounds (to me) like a 'sucking' sound. That's when your arc is about to quit you.

Use 1/4" rods and high temp. Easier to strike an arc and keep it going. After you get good at that, turn the size and heat down. If you find you can't strike a spark (even with your helmet off--a joke, there!) turn up the temp. Check your ground cable. You'd be amazed at how ticklish that little detail is.

Learn to strike a spark, one of the hard parts, and take a mental picture of the 'landscape' of your workpiece, the relationship of your stinger angle to it, and then start concentrating on your puddle. While you're keeping an eye on the puddle, trying to stay in the groove you've made for yourself, you can observe other things, like the shape of the flame, which will tell you if the heat is about right. The frying sound will tell you something too, see above.

It ain't hard. It's like trying to hold a cat by one back leg and not get clawed by the other three while it makes ungodly noises and tries to bite. You can do it, just takes a little patience and practice. Spend the money you save on not taking a course on RR stuff.

Oh, all the book I ever tried to read (1/2 of a 4 page one) got all caught up in 'penetration', 'fluidity', 'selection of rod type', and other stuff good to know, but not all at once. Like reading a freakin' Secret Religous Society manual. It's common sense, every bit, for common materials and purposes.


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

I want to do some heavy welding on the tractor and build some forks for the bucket on the front end loader. 

I'd personally use 7018's. 1/8-3/16 depending on the thickness of the steel.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By gtrainman on 04/09/2009 6:12 PM
I want to do some heavy welding on the tractor and build some forks for the bucket on the front end loader. 

I'd personally use 7018's. 1/8-3/16 depending on the thickness of the steel.

Now the guy at the welding store tole me thinkness has nothign to do with it. He said Gap is what in important. 


Picture a 4 inch squar piece of steel 2.5 inches thick. I Lay it on another piece that is same thickness and width but it is three feet long. So I am welding this block to a long bar 

Should I bevel the edges of the bar and the block of steel to creat a gap/valley for groove where the two pieces of steel meet and fill it in with my pudle?


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

John
If this is a true fork like off a fork truck, you should never weld accross the width, it will definately cause the possibility of breaking at the weld, you can weld along the length, 
If this is a make shift fork using a piece of hot roll steel you can weld accross, but you have a good chance of bending the fork.
A real truck lift fork has been heat treated to become stiffer.
Dennis


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis, I agree with you a 100% about welding on forks..it's a no-no..it's like welding leaf springs back together..better and safer to find replacement parts.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

Think about using a couple of 1/2" bolts and nuts to attach those fork tongs to your bucket. I did that with my Davis front-end loader that went on the Massey 50. Here's a big advantage: you can take 'em off when you want to scoop dirt. Of course, you'll have to drill, which'll take a little sweat. You should put two in each tong, to keep it from moving sideways, but I bet you already know that.

One way to test your welds is to smack **** out of one with a heavy hammer. Then look for cracks. If the metal deforms but the weld holds, you've got a good-enough joint.

Les


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

John,

I also totally agree with Dennis.

{ John If this is a true fork like off a fork truck, you should never weld across the width, it will definitely cause the possibility of breaking at the weld, you can weld along the length, 
If this is a make shift fork using a piece of hot roll steel you can weld across, but you have a good chance of bending the fork.
A real truck lift fork has been heat treated to become stiffer.
Dennis }



There are places that sell forks separate that can be bolted on. 
They may even less expensive than buying a welder and perhaps a new fuse box and plug for the welder in your shop.

BTW,
I've seen welds break many times, and even a fork shatter once from a loader, IT CAN KILL....

See your local weld shop for literature on welding if you wish, or follow the others that suggested a welding class.

Literature and how to videos used to come with Miller welders but I don't know if they still have them, again see your local welding supplier.


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

John,

Check out this link for forks.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=forks&Nty=1&D=forks&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

John
Check out a place that sells used fork trucks, I bought a set of forks for my JD tractor for 100 bucks a few years ago, they had the hooks in the back to slide side ways, I just welded up a slide system like a fork truck has, so it is adjustable.
The only problem is I must change buckets, A five minute job.
BTW I was at our local Grizzley today and they have a nice book on welding and it looks pratical and not one of those DEEP hard to learn books, and most important it has lots of pictures.
Dennis


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## scooby (Dec 22, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 04/06/2009 8:20 AM
What sticks are you trying to use? Diameter? Amperage? AC, straight DC? reverse DC? 

No way wire feed will work on heavy stuff like that, unless you use a good heavy dual shield wire with high amps and feed rate. 

Best suggestion is V groove the areas you want to weld, then use reverse DC. If you can turn the piece to weld everything flat, then go with 5/32" 7024 - That rod will do most of the work for you and the slag will just peel off, but it is no good for out of position work. Actually "best" in this application is probably a 6010 or 6011 root with 7018 fill and a hard cover pass for wear resistance... A lot of chipping and grinding, but you will get an excellent joint. 

As for how you know a good bead... 








http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/ 
http://uhcs.me.utexas.edu/courses/modules/smaw.html

even that good weld looks like crap i'd heir about it from the forman if i did a weld like that


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Scoob, ole buddy, we're trying to HELP a BEGINNER, not inspect a pressure vessel weld. If he can get them to look about like that, they'll hold. He can make 'em pretty later


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Those examples give me something to look for. 

Now I know what bad looks like


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## MasonsDad (Feb 7, 2008)

JJ again I wished you lived closer, Because I could get them fixed for you and Yes welding a fork Can be done with the proper welding, preheat , postheat and cool down proceedure and If you do weld them I would Totally NOT weld them with Stick it would be like Brazing it back together, but it can be done with weld and will hold I know this as fact because i have done it and you can trust me 34 years of Welding experience AWS 1 CWI , AWS 2 CWI , A.C.E. Govt 1-4 Certs and a Masters in Metalergy , Good luck Amigo !


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

John -- All of these guys have given you great advice. I farm and ranch as a retirement job and have a Cat 2 tractor. The bucket on it will pick up 3100 lbs. more or less at the pivot point. I don't know what size your tractor is, but I definitely would not use unrated steel even cold rolled for forks on mine. When you put 2500 lbs out 5 to 10 feet in front of your CG and sometimes 14 feet in the air you really don't want any significant flex in the forks. 

Be safe buy some rated tested forks bolt on or a bucket replacement. and make sure you've got significant counterweight on the three point end of the tractor!

mark


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is what I am trying to do.


This is a metal bar I got off a shipping bracket for a printing press. It is heavy










This is the feacally weld I breaking 












The idea is that it fits on the lip of the bucket like this 





















The blue hook is for a chain that goes under the bucket and hooks to a turnbuckle on the back to keep the fork from sliping off when the bucket is tipped down. 












My Welds look like a glob of snot. How does Curent figure into the equation?


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

Maybe you would be better off getting someone to do it for you. Even If they charge 40.00+ an hour shop time you shouldn't be looking at over an hour. You might want to find some forks off an old junked forklift, they would be much stronger. Space them out so they will fit on either side of a four way pallet. Sad to say I am a lousy welder even though my dad did it for a living. I tried tig welding the other day and I liked it and didn't do half bad so there maybe something to learning to oxy weld first. 

Good Luck 
Johnny


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

You're doing about what I did a long time ago. The idea's good and it'll work if you keep at it. It's not for industrial or production use, I take it, just for your own use? I bolted mine to the bucket bottom with two bolts after making the exact same setup you have. They were about two and a half feet long, if memory serves. (Been a _long_ time ago.)

Basically, from what I see as a self-taught welder, you don't have good control of your arc. You have to have that. There are two ways to get it: get some scrap flat steel and learn to run beads. It takes practice. Or keep on the way you're going and grind off what doesn't 'take', and start over. That's what I did. You need an angle grinder.

Current, in common, everyday language, is about equal to 'heat', which gives you penetration and a solid weld. The guys who are certified will wince, I know. But basically that's what you want. You're not so much 'adding' metal to the weld, you're causing the metal already there to melt and fuse together, with some help from the rod material and flux. That's why it's best to grind a trough type angle on your pieces where you want to weld and try start at the bottom of the trough and weld. Then chip off the flux coat and weld some more, 'buildup'. 

It ain't rocket surgury. But you have to learn to control your arc, and for me, it dawned on me that watching the puddle and listening to the 'frying pan' sound told me about what I needed to know. Mostly, it's a learned skill. Keep it up, I see a few promising-looking puddles here 'n there.

Les


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Les 
Thanks for the pointers I will work on my control this week end. I thought there should be more penatration but didn't know how to get it. 

John J.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

John

How much weight are you planning to lift with these bars? In my opinion what I see it scares me, alot of pressure is put in a real small area, Dennis


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Not much weight at all. The Ideas was to be able to get under rocks. Maybe move some pallets around or lumber. the forks are only 3.5 feet long.

I keep breaking the weld when I dig in the ground to get under a rock that I have already loosened with the back hoe.

I am just striving for a little better weldi.


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

Crank up the amperage.

What rods are you trying to use?


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

John J,

There's loads of info on Millerwelds.com web site.

Do you have a copy of this?

http://millerwelds.com/pdf/guidelines_smaw.pdf

It even has a rod chart.
It may help you.


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ -- 
Two things.... Your bolt shank (the piece your trying to get to hold inside the bucket) looks very short, possibly causing a lot of stress at the weld when you crank down on the bolt. Second have you beveled the edge of the bolt shank where you're welding? Realistically you don't have a lot of weld area in comparison to the width of the fork. The deeper the bevel the more holding weld area you have. You might even think about drilling through the fork to provide additional surface area on the bolt shank to hit with the welder.

What type of steel is the fork? If it's really high tensile stock you may need to utilize a low hydrogen 70XX rod. I use a lot of 7014/7018 because we use a lot of used oilfield pipe for fence post and corners. Very hard and ususally magnetized somehow. A 6010/6011/6013 rod just gobs up on it, really doesn't stick to the pipe, but just blows a pit in it. The 7014 doesn't penetrate very deep or as deeply as the 60XX series rods, is a more difficult rod to use (at least for me) but has a very high breaking/shear point or strength. We hard face chisel shanks and root grubs for deep plowing and brush removal, and it takes a very long time to wear the weld line off or down.

Good luck with the project.











Mark


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

There are no bolts involved. This is a shipping bracket that is like dadoed at the ends I cut one end off and tired to weld it to that bar. 

The idea is the dadoed end forms a notch for the bar to hook on the lead edge of the bucket 

There is a hood on the end of the bar that attachés to a chain from a chain binder. It pulls the fork back so the lead edge of the bucket stays in the notch 

My plan now it to take a grinder and grind a bevel on the sides of the bar and a groove across the bar. I will bevel all four sides of the block. When the block is placed on the bar I should have some sort of a groove/gap on all all sides. 

I will then a temp to fill this gap with weld material 

This is fun Trying to learn something new 

I think that the weld is sitting on the surface and I have no penetration 

Which could be a factor.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

THANK YOU.................THANK YOU .................THANK YOU

Thank you all who gave me input in this thread. I just came in from a practice secession. I studied the pictures your sent me here on different Welds The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

I listened for the Frying and sure enough it was there. Once I mastered that My welding improved. The thing about the "PUDDLE" was help full 

I Welded and chiped the slag away and my welds look much better....Maybe not Perfect but much better 

Thanks to you all 

JJ


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

And another hardy soul wins one!! Yay!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is a kind of update on something I discovered on my wire feed welder.

I often wondered why I had to run my wire feed at almost full speed. 

Well What I discovered is There is a spring adjustment on the drive wheel that pushes the wire into the flex tubing so it can go up to the welding tip.

Ther is such a thing as toooooo much presure on the dirve wheel.

The old addage Some is good a lot is better. 

Not in this case.

I back off on the presure to the drive wheel and it ran faster. 

To fast infact 

So I was able to back down on the speed knob on the front of the welder. 

Now I have more control.


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

My father-in-law is a master welder for a fabrication shop. I suggested once that I should take a class and he looked at me like I was stupid.

Followed with;

You can teach example of what to not do and what works for them, but welding is an art you can only learn through experience.

In a lot of ways teaching welding is like writing a book on self improvement. What works for you may not always work for the other guy. 


Of course the the principles behind welding, you can learn from a book.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Right on, right on.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Even a artist needs some guide lines. He needs to know what colors to mix to get the results he wants. Not knowing what a good weld is like ascompaired to what bad weld looks like Just buring sticks will not get you the artists results you want. Somewhere a long the way someone must of told Michael Angelo,,,,,," That looks like crap" 
Two which he said. "It is, it's the only real looking brown I could find."


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gtrainman on 24 Apr 2009 02:49 PM 
John J,

There's loads of info on Millerwelds.com web site.

Do you have a copy of this?

http://millerwelds.com/pdf/guidelines_smaw.pdf

It even has a rod chart.
It may help you.

I bought one the little 110V wire feed welders from Home Depot and started using it. It's opened up a new world of fabrication possibilities. I am no good as a weldor, but I can get things stuck together good enough that it is difficult to bash them apart with a big hammer.

Although this document is for stick welding, I see many things I am doing wrong. Need more practice.


Thanks, Bob


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Bob

That is exactly how I started....A Wire feed welder on sale at Home Depot. I stated with some scrap steel.....Weleded two pieces together and thew them accross the gararge and if they stuck togher I figured the welds were good. 


The was my first Project. 










The best part was the help I got from this very thread that inproved my welding skills.


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