# A Great Deal on Hollow Handrail - and a Problem



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry memtioned to me that he had fitted hollow handrails to his loco, so I dug around on the 'net and found Small Parts sells 14 gage SS hypodermic tubing. (14 gage per Stubs Iron Wire Gage, [not the same as AWG] = 0.083" = 2mm.) Larry used 15 gauge (0.072") but my handrails both measure 0.083" so this stuff will fit.










Then I noticed that Amazon sells (and stocks the stuff.) The current price is $3 (!) for 5 x 36" lengths, reduced from $57.74. Shipping is $5.04 unless you buy the wife a book for Xmas and get the total over $25. *amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Hypodermic-Tubing-Length/dp/B00137SL6Y/ref=lh_ni_t*


_Is that a Deal, or what?_

So I have 15' of hollow handrail on the way, and I'm replacing the headlight on my C-19 to backdate it. Then I noticed a little problem. My C-19 prototype (EBT #7) has a curved front one-piece handrail.










If I was using solid rail, there would be little problem curving it around the smokebox and making up a one-piece handrail. However, my new handrail will be hollow, and I'm suspecting it will cave in when I try to bend it. [If it bends - it's stainless steel after all.]

Anyone try bending this stuff? I guess heating it will help?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete,
the SS from K&S bends very nicely without any annealing, so you might be lucky:



Regards


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Make your own bender. Get a piece of round stock and turn a rectangular groove in it the width of the tubing with a parting tool. The bottom of the groove should be the inside diameter of the desired bend. A section (at least) around the top of the groove should be the outside diameter of the desired bend so you can grab the tubing inserted into the groove with a clamp. Since you need to go 180*, you may want to make a clamping piece that screws to the surface of the bending tool. Stick the tool in a vice, stick the tubing in the tool, and bend away. The groove will prevent the tubing sides from expanding and keep the rest from collapsing.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

? would a spring around the outside to bend it work?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dick413 on 24 Nov 2011 01:49 PM 
? would a spring around the outside to bend it work? I never had any luck with the spring thingies. The one Dwight describes works well. I used the Dubro bender, but it is not available in 2mm.
Regards


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## nadnerbster (Nov 19, 2009)

Another suggestion: 

Insert some solid wire in the tube at the point where you want to bend it. Use a pipe cleaner or similar to push it to the desired location.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Get a piece of round stock and turn a rectangular groove 
Dwight, 
Thanks - that would work well if I had (a) a workshop and (b) a lathe. I'm limited to a condo, and the wife insists her car gets the garage! 

Insert some solid wire in the tube at the point where you want to bend it 
I had wondered about that. My problem is that it is difficult to get it out afterwards. Maybe if I put it just in the bit that gets bent, if I can figure out where it is once its inside!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete - don't you know someone locally who has a lathe and could turn the bender for you?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You might be able to stack appropriate thickness washers of two different diameters to create the bending form on a stout bolt. The small washers should be the diameter that you want the pipe bent to and as thick as the diameter of the pipe itself. The larger ones of any sufficiently large diameter to contain the pipe, at least larger in diameter by twice the diameter of the pipe to be bent, and strong enough to resist being deformed by the pipe trying to flatten while being bent. 

I have never had much luck with the spring type benders as they get stuck and won't slide off without being unwound and destroyed in the process (a one-use-only type tool). 

Inserting a solid wire in the pipe is another method that I have had no luck with. The wire just gets gripped like a vise by the bend and cannot be removed by any pushing or pulling, usually resulting in the wire being pulled in two, leaving the pipe clogged with the bit of wire still inside. 

Some people say that filling it with sand will keep it from collapsing in the bend, but that has never worked for me... I can't seem to get the sand packed tight enough to not get squished out of the bend when the pipe begins to collapse while being bent. 

There are metals that can be melted into the pipe to make it a solid and then after the bend it can be re-melted and poured out. But it needs to be a metal that is not easily deformed (or it will be squished out of the bend and allow the pipe to collapse) and it needs to be one that will not adhere to the pipe walls (like solder does to copper) or you might not be able to get enough of it out to end up with something similar to the original inside diameter.


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, 

Send the wire to Dwight so he can bend the wire for you!!!!\ 

Bill.


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Cerrosafe and Cerrobend are the metals you can use to fill the tubing. You can find their site easily. The melting point is about 165 degrees if I remember, below the boiling point of water anyway. They won't stick to metals and shrink very slightly after cooling then begin to expand again in a couple of hours. I have used them in measuring the chambers in firearms. Getting anything liquid into that small diameter tubing would be a problem but mot much will stick to stainless including solder. Would it be necessary to remove anything you put into the tubing anyway?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, many thanks - you always come up with great ideas and the pros & cons of various approaches. 

You might be able to stack appropriate thickness washers of two different diameters to create the bending form on a stout bolt 
That sounds a bit easier than trying to find someone with a lathe. Lots of auto fender washers around - plus I can always cut a slice of tube with a hacksaw to make the internal form. 

Send the wire to Dwight so he can bend the wire for you!!!! 
Now there's an idea! 

Would it be necessary to remove anything you put into the tubing anyway? 
Strictly speaking, no - I don't have to remove anything in the bend area. I do have to file an opening just behind the bend to feed the wire for the headlight, so the wire has to be only in the bend area, or I have to cut it when I file the opening and pull some out.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By hawkeye2 on 25 Nov 2011 08:00 AM 
Would it be necessary to remove anything you put into the tubing anyway? 



Depends..but most of the time, yes..
because the main point to using the hollow tubing in the first place is so you can run wires through it, 
(for live steam locos, unlike electric locos, you cant run wires through the boiler or smokebox.)
so instead wires are run thorough the hollow handrails to power the headlight and/or marker lights..

probably not *all* hollow tubing would need the inserts removed, depending on there its located..but for the general concept,
the reason for using hollow tubing in the first place..yes, you want them to still be hollow after bending..
that's the whole point for using the hollow tubing..if you didnt care about removing the inserts, you would just use solid rod to begin with..

easier to bend..


and often it would be easier to put the wires through the tubing while its still straight, then bend the tube with the wires inside..
so bending the hollow tubing with a method that doesnt put something inside it to keep it from kinking, is the best method to pursue... 


Scot


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Insert some solid wire in the tube at the point where you want to bend it 
I had wondered about that. My problem is that it is difficult to get it out afterwards. Maybe if I put it just in the bit that gets bent, if I can figure out where it is once its inside! 
Why would you need to get it out? Couldn't it just stay in there for life. You would never see it and it would add some small amount of weight for traction. 



One trick I've seen used is to fill the tube with water freeze it. Once froze, bend it with the ice inside which prevents collapse. Then let it melt out. I've seen this for larger diameter tin wall brass tubing for instruments. Not sure how it will work for smaller, thicker walled tube.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 25 Nov 2011 09:32 AM 
Why would you need to get it out? Couldn't it just stay in there for life. You would never see it and it would add some small amount of weight for traction. 




Randy,
see post directly above yours! 
Scot


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

At what point along the handrail do you plan on having the wire come out of the handrail and run up to the headlight? Does it need to come around the front curve at all? If not, there's no reason why the front curved part of the handrail needs to be hollow. On the other hand, if it is going around the curve, why not run the wire through it first and then bend it? That way you've got the wire in there to prevent the tube from collapsing when you bend it, and you don't need to worry about getting it out of there afterwards. It's probably easier to feed the wire while the tube is straight anyway. 

Another idea, and a variation on the "cut a groove in round stock on the lathe" that I've used (being lathe-less myself). is to chuck a short length of wooden dowel into an electric drill and cut a groove in it using a round file. Works fine for copper or brass tubing anyway (just have to anneal the **** out of it first). Might be worth a try with the stainless steel tube.


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## nadnerbster (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm watching this thread with interest as I have two locomotives I want to add a headlight to. 

Pete - what sort of electrical wire are you planning on inserting into the pipe? I'm curious as to what's appropriate to use, as I don't want insulation to melt in the high temperature environment that is a live steam locomotive. Any other suggestions for appropriate wires from other members would be gratefully appreciated! 

As for the wire-in-tube idea: 

- I was thinking of leaving the solid bit of wire in, but in the bent bit only, which still allows you to have hollow tube up to your headlight. I'd use another length of wire to push it in place. Pete seems to have got that idea. I do like the idea of using liquid metal though - it'd be easy enough to fill the tube, just add a rubber ball on the other end and make the tube a pippette, then put the bottom of the tube into a cup of the liquid metal, squeeze the ball and release, up the metal goes! 

- I'm wondering if wire that's very flexible, such as wire from R/C aircraft cables, might be able to be pulled out after using the wire-in-tube method - but I guess the clamping effect would probably be too strong.


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## shaysteam05 (Jul 19, 2008)

MY question is- Why hollow hand rails? What is wrong with solid rod? Am I missing something? 
Alex


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I do have to file an opening just behind the bend to feed the wire for the headlight, so the wire has to be only in the bend area, or I have to cut it when I file the opening and pull some out. 
If not, there's no reason why the front curved part of the handrail needs to be hollow. 
Randy, Richard, Scott, 
I don't have to get the part in the curve at the front of the smokebox out. It can stay in. But the point of hollow tubing [Alex - you on board here?] is that I want to run wires from the cab to the headlight - as Scott said in great detail above. So getting just enough wire into the tube at just the right point becomes an issue. 

I'd use another length of wire to push it in place. 
I guess if I calculate the length correctly, and push a bit of solid brass rod into the tube, it will not impede the electrical wire. Once it is bent, and I file holes to get wire out of the tube at the front for the headlight, I'm not sure what I'm going to do if the solid rod is in the way!! 

what sort of electrical wire are you planning on inserting into the pipe? I'm curious as to what's appropriate to use, as I don't want insulation to melt in the high temperature environment that is a live steam locomotive 
In my experience, the only part of a live steamer that is 'high temp' is the burner and the surrounding area - plus the smokebox which is also burner-heated. The rest of the engine is mostly at boiling water temp, which is a bit higher for a pressure vessel, but still in the 212 F / 100 C ++ range. 

The boiler is insulated, and the handrails are on stand-offs, so I doubt they will get very hot. I certainly don't recall burning my fingers on a handrail in the past. 

I have some Model Power HO wire that is about 0.040" across, so I plan to feed that down the pipe. It has plastic insulation but I don't expect any problems. 

I also have experience with 'magnet wire' from my days rewinding slot car motors. This is copper wire insulated with a thin coat of paint or plastic so when you wind a magnet the coils stay separate, electrically speaking. I noted some thin wire on Amazon and other places that was suitable.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

How about using a piece of wire as a mandral, but cut the wire in half and have the two ends meet right where you intend to bend it?

Then once it's bent, it would be far easier to pull out the two pieces than it would one piece where you have to pull wire back around the curve.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

First off it's kinda hard to get wire out of a tube/pipe other than at the ends.... So what about tubes for straight and solid for the curved part. File the curved ends so they fit in the tubes and are flush with the OD. Use a small wheel cutter to mill the wire channel outlet in the end of the solid wire. Use snippets of solder to join them and not block the passage way. Use putty or glue to fill the seams after the wire is pulled. 
I assume you are using the loco body as the ground and are only running hot leads to the lights. One side for the headlight and the other for class lights and maybe a stack monitor.... 

Have fun 
John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I was thinking of using this for the hand rail on my SD-45 I bought with no trim. How would you join it to the stanchions. You can't solder this stuff can you ? 

JJ


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Then once it's bent, it would be far easier to pull out the two pieces 
My experience is that it is very difficult to remove a piece of support wire from a bent tube. Other posts in this thread concur! 

You can't solder this stuff can you ? 
I haven't tried this particular stuff, but I recall that ss does take solder. Anyway, JJ, if you don't need it to be hollow, I'd go with brass rod!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

So what about tubes for straight and solid for the curved part. 
John, 
That would work, although I'm not the greatest workman when it comes to disguising joints!


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, I go away for a few days, and look at all the fuss you have stirred up. 

I doubt that the loco builder did that handrail all in one piece. Looking closely at the photograph where the railing passes the stack base, I see the suggestion of a sleeved joint. So, I like the idea given to make the curved section out of solid rod and splice it into the tubes on each side. The slip joint can be two ways; file the ends of the rod to fit the ID of the tubing. Use a flat needle file--it doesn't have to be perfect--just fit. Or, make sleeves by splitting short lengths of the tubing to fit the OD, with the split hidden at the bottom. Spot of JB Weld at the joints and you are done. 

Larry


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

As far as a tool to turn the washers to the right size for the bend, you could clamp the washer on a bolt with a nut and then chuck it in an electric drill and turn it down with a file. That usually works pretty well if you don't have to turn it too far down.


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete: 

I have a lathe and can turn up the bending mandrel you need for bending your tubing...probably make two at same time so I'll have one for myself. 

Send me a direct email and we'll discuss the particulars... 

Regards, 
Cliff 
[email protected]


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 24 Nov 2011 01:22 PM 
Make your own bender. Get a piece of round stock and turn a rectangular groove in it the width of the tubing with a parting tool. The bottom of the groove should be the inside diameter of the desired bend. A section (at least) around the top of the groove should be the outside diameter of the desired bend so you can grab the tubing inserted into the groove with a clamp. Since you need to go 180*, you may want to make a clamping piece that screws to the surface of the bending tool. Stick the tool in a vice, stick the tubing in the tool, and bend away. The groove will prevent the tubing sides from expanding and keep the rest from collapsing. 
Pete:
You could make what Dwight described from a piece of dowel or even from stacked washers on a bolt. Groove dowel using a drill press or router with a 1/8" router bit. The router in a router table is pretty simple. Using a drill press would be a bit tricky but still doable. Or use plastic disks two different dia. stacked/glued together. Or groove a short length of acrylic dowel.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks again guys. Lots of good suggestions.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, you say the handrails of the C-19 measure 0.083, and that is the dia of the tubing that you bought. There may be a problem if you go to use it on the EBT 12. Something just didn't seem right, so I went back and measured the solid rods from mine; they are 0.0785. That's why I bought the size tubing that I did, 0.072. The solid rods were tight coming out of the posts, so it doesn't seem that the 0.083 tube is going to fit. 

Let me know how you make out. Hope to post pix soon of the changes making my engine Belden Falls 13. 

Larry


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## Don Howard (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry's pix of his wiring for his #13 










From Wiring EBT #12 for headlamp lighting 

from an album with more pix. 
Album of Larry's #13 all wired up for headlamp


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Larry Green on 28 Nov 2011 03:35 PM 
Pete, you say the handrails of the C-19 measure 0.083, and that is the dia of the tubing that you bought. There may be a problem if you go to use it on the EBT 12. Something just didn't seem right, so I went back and measured the solid rods from mine; they are 0.0785. That's why I bought the size tubing that I did, 0.072. The solid rods were tight coming out of the posts, so it doesn't seem that the 0.083 tube is going to fit. 

Let me know how you make out. Hope to post pix soon of the changes making my engine Belden Falls 13. 

Larry 
Very interesting. I ran the micrometer on my EBT #12 handrails again and I think they are a tad under 0.083. I got 0.080 on my solid ones, so a little 'easing' of the posts may be necessary.

My $3 package turned up in a very substantial tube, so I have 5 x 36" of tubing to play with. My first application is C-19 #7, and it has very different handrail supports.










These are actually adjustable via the small bolt in the top. [You'll also note that one has been repaired - they seem to be bronze castings and a bit fragile.]

The lower rod is original, and the upper one is the new tubing. I didn't have to alter the existing supports - it just slotted right in.

I'll go and try it on #12 - stay tuned.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course, spinning the handrail on #12 to unscrew the nut means I note the weathering is a bit one-sided, sigh, but it went back on OK.

Here's the tubing rotated into the handrail support. It went in fine, but with a lot of supports, I may run a thin rod with some emery paper on it to ease the fit. When I get around to lighting #12. 










P.S. Larry, those are nice photos from Don. What did you use for a lamp bulb?


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Suggestion for the wire for your tube handrail. Haven't checked lately but Radio Shack used to have a extremely small/fine wire insulated with teflon or something good for high temps. Might be worth checking out.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, I use 12 incandescent bulbs from Microtronics, powered by a 9v ni-met rechargeable battery from Radio Shack. The wire is also Microtronics, as are the mini connectors. Eveyrthing has taken the heat on my Shay for many years now. 

Regarding opening up of the posts, get yourself a set of 4" needle files (Micro-Mark). The shank of the round one will fit thru an adjacent post while filing. Easy on the pressure; the small end of these little round files can snap easily.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

powered by a 9v ni-met rechargeable battery 
Thanks Larry. I was planning to use the 4.8V r/c battery already in the tender that is feeding the servos in the cab, so I'll probably fit an LED. 

get yourself a set of 4" needle files (Micro-Mark). 
Too late! I already gave the kids my Micromark list for Xmas!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

What would the prototype have done? I can understand not wanting to see any wires on an old oil lamp. But if it's a model of an electric light wouldn't it have had wires running to it from some where? Were they concealed under the boiler jacket? Run in conduit?

PS: What about marker lamps too? Were they just oil lanterns to the end of the steam era, or were they ever electrified on some locos?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 29 Nov 2011 01:42 PM 
What would the prototype have done? I can understand not wanting to see any wires on an old oil lamp. But if it's a model of an electric light wouldn't it have had wires running to it from some where? Were they concealed under the boiler jacket? Run in conduit?

PS: What about marker lamps too? Were they just oil lanterns to the end of the steam era, or were they ever electrified on some locos? 



Wires to the early electric headlamps and marker lights were run inside the handrails just like the OP wants to do here in his model... quite prototypical! Very common for steam locos to have small electric generators (known as a "dynamo" back then) on them, just for running the headlamp, marker and cab lamps (instrument illumination).


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

There commonly was surface mounted conduit going to electrical appliances on steam engines, and Trackside Details even makes dummy junction boxes. However, to do this to scale on the model requires much smaller tubing and dia. wire, making it too fussy a job in my opinion. Engine markers were either oil or electric; it depended on the road. 

I removed the factory markers on my engine. As a non-common carrier quarry line, with a "friends of" museum operation on weekends, we don't use them. 

Guess this is straying from Pete's tubing topic a bit. 

Larry 

Larry


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## agrund (Feb 19, 2011)

I did a similar job on my Aster Shay, however, I took a brass tube (OD 2.0mm, ID 1.00mm), which can be bent easily. Before bending, I put the wire in, which is PTFE isolated and is heat resistant up to 150 C. 

See the photo, second from top here 

http://www.schienendampf.com/344872...y-oder-beginn-einer-neuen-liebe-t907-s48.html 

As to sourcing, I got brass tube and PTFE wire here in Tokyo, Japan, but I suppose, such materials are available everywhere. 

greetings, 

Andreas


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess this is straying from Pete's tubing topic a bit 
I think we beat the tubing to death. 


Wires to the early electric headlamps and marker lights were run inside the handrails 
Interestingly, one of the things I removed from the C-19 boiler as I was backdating was/is a complete model of the electrical wiring from cab to headlight, which was not in the handrails. Here's an old photo from before I started stripping: 










As you can see, it runs across the top of the smokebox and alongside the handrail back the length of the boiler to a junction box on the cab front wall. There's a lot of useful details - like the 90 deg fittings, etc.


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