# Water Question



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Folks;

I think that I already know the answer to this, and I probably should add "don't worry, I'm only using the water for watering flowers." We have a dehumidifier that sometimes produces up to a gallon of water a day. Since this water is being collected from the humidity in the air, would it be as safe as distilled water for our little locomotives? My guess is that impurities enter via the extraction process, but I wondered whether anyone had read of any research concerning dehumidifier distilled water and its relative purity.

Just being curious,
David Meashey


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave
This has come up many times before. Anyone who owns a model live steam locomotive and will not spend between $0.70 and $1.15 a gallon for STEAM DISTILLED water deserves to have the locomotive spit steam oil in their eye. Apparently you have not cleaned a dehumidifier lately or you would not ask. The stuff does not get filtered in any way and is full of CRAP.


BTW, if you search this site you will find that this comes up with great regularity. And I do not care if Regner advises to put a little tap water in the boiler to prevent de-zincification of the copper boiler. If you clean the boiler out regularly, it will NEVER be an issue.

Next you will be asking if motor oil is a good substitute for steam oil. NO, it is NOT OK.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

So Jim,
Tell me more about "if you clean the boiler out regularly" as since I'm heavily invested in Regners as you know I want them to run forever.
You already know I use distilled water, steam oil and 3in1 in the blue can.
See you at Marie's,
Tom


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Jim;

You should know me well enough to know that I would never try to substitute motor oil for steam oil. (It's your fondness for hyperbole, I suppose. ) I started out with 155psi locomotives that were weighed in *tons*. I said from the beginning that it was just a matter of curiosity, and at 70 years of age, I don't always have everything that went down on this site accessible on my wetware hard drive (aka brain).

Bye the way, thanks for confirming what I suspected. At least the stuff will not hurt the posies.

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dr Rivet said:


> [...]
> And I do not care if Regner advises to put a little tap water in the boiler to prevent de-zincification of the copper boiler. If you clean the boiler out regularly, it will NEVER be an issue.
> 
> [...].


Jim, you meant to write 'brass' boiler, not copper... Still, it is a very good idea to add tap water even with copper boilers. Some do have brass (not bronze) fittings, and deionized or distilled water are quite (and equally) aggressive. Cleaning the boilers regularly is just a wishful thinking. A couple of weeks ago I decided to check several of my locos if there is water in them. in about 30% of them there was water, in some as much as half a boiler... Sure, I must have thought that I will run them in a few days again, five or more years ago that is. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow water wars. 

Short answer is others have tried and ended up with alge in the boiler. don't bother. 

As to Regner brass boilers, the tap water is due to creating a layer of buildup so the water doesn't attack the brass. I guess that's an option. I just run distilled water and drain the boiler and leave it open and dry. Its the water that's left in there that corrodes not the 30 mins of steamup, its the days, weeks and years people leave a full boiler with brass. That's a big no no. Granted short term I leave water in the copper boilers but usually drain them if I wont run for a while.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

how do you "clean" a boiler? i want to clean my rubys boiler as there is a THICK layer of oil on the water.(i think its steam oil that made its way from the lubricator as i let the throttle open and keep it open after she runs out of gas)


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom
Rumor has it that a periodic wash out with vinegar will do the trick. I have never seen anything definitive, and it may not really be necessary. I think the time increment is years, not months. But some of us have locos that were built by Aster 40 years ago. I have a first run Roundhouse SR&RL #24 purchased in 1991. Four years maybe?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

pure distilled water is so ionic that it can erode the solder from connections and attack brass.

on the other hand, tap water normally contains dissolved minerals that will build up.

the big question is if you use pure distilled water, how long will it take to attack, and is there something to attack?

Seems that this varies a lot by manufacturer, and also assembly of the individual engine.

Adding just a small amount of tap water will greatly reduce distilled water's "danger".

I have a very expensive ($5k) swiss espresso maker and they are emphatic in the warning to not use distilled water. there is a reason, and these people have been making steam boilers since 1931, and WAY more of them than our small number in the hobby.

Greg


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave M, theoretically, you could use the collected water in the humidifiers sump. Filter the junk out, boil it for 10-15 minutes to kill off any algae cells and funky microbes and pour it into any handy container. Or, like Jim says, pick up a bottle or two every time a grocery run is made.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> how do you "clean" a boiler? i want to clean my rubys boiler as there is a THICK layer of oil on the water.(i think its steam oil that made its way from the lubricator as i let the throttle open and keep it open after she runs out of gas)


 You need something to cut the oil, you can use acetone, say one full syringe and cap the boiler. Shake and turn in all directions. It will clean the oil, and when drained will leave no residue. Also flush out the boiler a few times with water afterwards. Can always dislodge some crud in the boiler cleaning. Buildup or flux left behind. to drain pull the safety and the filler. Drain from one plug and the other open for air.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> You need something to cut the oil, you can use acetone, say one full syringe and cap the boiler. Shake and turn in all directions. It will clean the oil, and when drained will leave no residue. Also flush out the boiler a few times with water afterwards. Can always dislodge some crud in the boiler cleaning. Buildup or flux left behind. to drain pull the safety and the filler. Drain from one plug and the other open for air.


Right ! 
Do that Hokey Pokey with your Big Boy, Cab Forward .....  

You put your right foot in
You take your right foot out
You put your right foot in
And you shake it all about
You do the hokey pokey
And you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about

 Jay, you're a hoot !


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I use the same method that Jason Kovac explained above with excellent results. 

This is partly because I bought two used engines and traded one other with friends, both used tap water and did not empty their boilers after a run. In both cases when I dismantled the engine to perform class repairs the brass clack valve, broke like glass when trying to unscrew it from the boiler bush. This was because of dezincification, that is the zinc in the brass gets atracted due to electrolisis by the stainless steel ball in the valve and this weakens the brass untill it is like glass. The problem is not so much acid eating away the copper, nor the build up of scale in the boiler, it is more the electrolisis problem and dezincification which harms Asters.

It is why I have made a post to ask that the manufacturers of our little (priceless) engines use the same materials that OS engines adopted due to consumer pressure in the larger scales and use only bronze for all hardware beneath the water level (IE: bushes, clacks regulators, blowers blow downs, etc.) 
I also strongly recomend giving a few hand pumps on the hand pump and moving the engine back and forth if fitted with an axle pump to rid the pumps and clacks in the system of any water.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

OS recently posted an information page on the problem:
http://www.oslivesteam.com/english/corporate/091208/index.html
Please check the figure indicating "the parts below this line are likely to be corroded"
I think this pretty well illustrates the magnitude of the problem with brass... although their argument about lower electrical conductivity of distilled or deionized water does not hold, if anything distilled or deionized water is more corrosive than tap water in my opinion.
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Johnsop (Jan 5, 2008)

Trouble is in the UK getting hold of distilled water is difficult. The only water you can get that is "pure" is deionised water. Otherwise you have to order steam distilled water from specialist suppliers

The U.K. Is blessed with lots and lots of rain so I just put a clean glass bowl out in the middle of the lawn when it is raining and collect directly from the skies. Then it goes in a container and kept in a cool dark cupboard. I reckon this should be okay and will even have picked up a few impurities in the air so should not be so ionic as to attack any brass. 

If I am fooling myself with this solution (no pun intended) then please put me right

PHIL


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Johnsop said:


> Trouble is in the UK getting hold of distilled water is difficult. The only water you can get that is "pure" is deionised water. Otherwise you have to order steam distilled water from specialist suppliers
> 
> The U.K. Is blessed with lots and lots of rain so I just put a clean glass bowl out in the middle of the lawn when it is raining and collect directly from the skies. Then it goes in a container and kept in a cool dark cupboard. I reckon this should be okay and will even have picked up a few impurities in the air so should not be so ionic as to attack any brass.
> 
> ...


Distilled water in the sunshine; A passive solar water distiller.. Even on an overcast warm day the water will still evaporate. About 2 litres of water collected per still per day. Just keep refilling it with water each morning or like the graphic self refilling. This should more than meet your, and your friends, steaming needs.

Ultimate Guide To Solar Water Distillers: Solar Water Distillation 101
http://all-about-water-filters.com/ultimate-guide-to-solar-water-distillation/


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Johnsop said:


> Trouble is in the UK getting hold of distilled water is difficult. The only water you can get that is "pure" is deionised water. Otherwise you have to order steam distilled water from specialist suppliers


Deionized water is fine if you just quench it's desire to 're-ionize' itself - by adding 5% tap water.



> The U.K. Is blessed with lots and lots of rain so I just put a clean glass bowl out in the middle of the lawn when it is raining and collect directly from the skies. Then it goes in a container and kept in a cool dark cupboard. I reckon this should be okay and will even have picked up a few impurities in the air so should not be so ionic as to attack any brass.
> 
> If I am fooling myself with this solution (no pun intended) then please put me right
> 
> PHIL


Rain water is probably OK after a period of south-westerly winds - wind from the north-east brings acid rain from the industrial areas of Germany and Poland


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Scottychaos said:


> I have been involved in live steam for 15 years now, and im a member of a live steam club, I have attended 3 to 5 steamups a year for the past 15 years, *not once, ever, literally never*, have I heard the topic of adding some tap water to distilled water ever come up at a steamup.
> 
> And *not once, ever, literally never*, have I ever observed anyone adding some tap water to their distilled water..
> 
> ...


Just for your information Scott .......



Dr Rivet said:


> ...... Regner advises to put a little tap water in the boiler to prevent de-zincification of the boiler fittings.





zubi said:


> .......it is a very good idea to add tap water even with copper boilers. Some do have brass (not bronze) fittings, and deionized or distilled water are quite (and equally) aggressive. Zubi





Greg Elmassian said:


> .....pure distilled water is so ionic that it can erode the solder from connections and attack brass.
> 
> Adding just a small amount of tap water will greatly reduce distilled water's "danger".
> 
> ...





du-bousquetaire said:


> when I dismantled the engine to perform class repairs the brass clack valve, broke like glass when trying to unscrew it from the boiler bush. This was because of dezincification, that is the zinc in the brass gets atracted due to electrolisis by the stainless steel ball in the valve and this weakens the brass untill it is like glass. The problem is not so much acid eating away the copper, nor the build up of scale in the boiler, it is more the electrolisis problem and dezincification which harms Asters.





zubi said:


> ..... illustrates the magnitude of the problem with brass... if anything distilled or deionized water is more corrosive than tap water in my opinion.
> Zubi



Hey Scotty! - *how* long did you say you've been involved in live steam? ....


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

*Tokyo water is the water of choice*

Folks, I would be happy to supply Tokyo water in unlimited quantities to any of you. The best water for live steam. Everyone uses it on their Asters here, in fact Aster uses it...In fact, I think that Aster users should use nothing else but Tokyo water! I think sen yen is a fair price per liter. Just let me know... and I will arrange shipping to your location. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I collect rain water but always strain it with a few layers of cloth in the funnel to keep any small particles that may blow in the rain catchment tub. I have a 10 lire storage drum of water I keep in a garbage bag under the house to keep the light out otherwise green algae will eventually grow in it. I have a few bottles in the pantry with 'live steam water' written on them for handy use.

Andrew


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> Right !
> Do that Hokey Pokey with your Big Boy, Cab Forward .....
> 
> You put your right foot in
> ...


 Chris, I cleaned my K28 this way. BUT rigged the garden hose to a 1/8" ID tube and cracked the faucet. Let the boiler overflow out the banjo bushings. Just let it run for 10-15mins. never had an issue with any cleaner residue messing anything up. Also since I replaced the stock check valve its no an issue anymore. Also this is the reason I will have a goodall on the loco is I use it or not, Its just allows the vacuum to balance. Not had any suck in oil since.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

jason! NOOOOOOO!!! youre putting tap water in your boiler with a garden hose! 

i wouldnt want to do the hokey pokey with an engine that costs a few thousand


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeeze, it isn't like a boiler is instantly destroyed by flushing with tap water... it's the long term effects of tap water.

Greg


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Jeeze, it isn't like a boiler is instantly destroyed by flushing with tap water... it's the long term effects of tap water.
> 
> Greg


 greg, i was being sarcastic
P.S. i did the first track steamup since rubys repair today. it was also the first meet and steamup of the YLS! and all of the members showed up!all of the 1 members! ruby ran like a dream and handled 2 bachmann passenger cars very well(she was run on the inside loop that is level)


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> greg, i was being sarcastic
> P.S. i did the first track steamup since rubys repair today. it was also the first meet and steamup of the YLS! and all of the members showed up!all of the 1 members! ruby ran like a dream and handled 2 bachmann passenger cars very well(she was run on the inside loop that is level)


WOO HOO!!! Sounds like it's time for a membership drive.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

yup! by next week there may be two or 3 though, but neither have steamers! (BOTH ARE O sCALE.)

P.S does any one have any extra B mann couplers?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> pure distilled water is so ionic that it can erode the solder from connections and attack brass.
> 
> on the other hand, tap water normally contains dissolved minerals that will build up.
> 
> ...



This water thing can get really confusing right away. So if you could just to clarify terms it would help me.
What do mean by "pure distilled water"? Or, what exactly is "pure distilled water"? How is it made?


PS: You are incredibly brave to admit that you own a $5,000 coffee maker, sorry, Espresso Machine.   
How much do you have to pay for coffee that is good enough for it?  he he he
Myself, I'm strictly Dunkin Donnuts coffee.  Drive thru of course.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll just interject my own thoughts here... "Pure distilled water" is a bit of a redundant name... "Pure" and "Distilled" sometimes meaning the same thing... but it is possible to distill some water and then contaminate it, meaning that it is no longer "just" Distilled water. Some Distilled water that you can buy at the grocery store may have "additives" put in it for some reason, either on purpose or accidently, or maybe just because the manufacturer is sloppy about eliminating contaminates.

To distill water you must raise the temperature to 212 degrees and collect JUST the gaseous state of the water that is driven off at that temperature... prior to reaching that temperature, there may be other liquid components that are in the water (alcohols, chlorine, etc.) that were driven off as the water was being raised in temperature and the manufacturer SHOULD have eliminated that from the collection vessel where the gaseous "water" (H2O) is to be cooled and collected to be sold in the jugs in the grocery store... if they were sloppy in doing that you might get a gallon of "Distilled water" that is not necessarily "pure". Same is true if they raise the temperature too high and drive off additional gaseous forms of chemicals in the raw water and that will get into the output, resulting in "distilled water" that is not quite "Pure".

These contaminates, whether introduced by accident, stupidity or on purpose (to improve the taste?) need to be taken into account when deciding whether the water will be "ionic" and thus "bad" when used in a copper boiler with brass/bronze fittings.

But, FAT CHANCE anyone that buys the water will know for sure.

I use only "Steam Distilled Water" in my Aster Mike boilers... I am pretty certain I will be long dead before there are any adverse results of my doing so and I'd bet the wheels and various pivot bearings will be worn out by then.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Semper Vaporo said:


> I[...]
> I use only "Steam Distilled Water" in my Aster Mike boilers... I am pretty certain I will be long dead before there are any adverse results of my doing so [...]


Semper Vaporo, Hmm..., perhaps you could increase your lifespan by eliminating distilled liquids from your diet;-)? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> Semper Vaporo, Hmm..., perhaps you could increase your lifespan by eliminating distilled liquids from your diet;-)? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


 The only distilled liquids I consume would be 1) that self-same stuff I put in the boilers (if it is good enuf fer me Aster Mikes, it is good enuf fer me!) and 2) a long time ago, I had a throat infection that was not going away and the doctor said I should gargle with a high alcohol content mouthwash... but I have a problem with that; I tend to choke and swallow when I gargle and the particular form of alcohol in mouthwash is METHANOL, which is poisonous if one ingests it, so the good doc said to gargle with an alcoholic beverage. Problem with that is that I can't stand the smell of most booze, so he recommended that I use Peppermint Schnapps... the peppermint is so strong that it masks the alcohol stink... I have found that sipping that stuff does do a world of good in curing the sore throat... and the peppermint is sort of soothing to the sore throat... that was about 15 years ago and I still have about 1/2 that bottle in the medicine cabinet... I suppose that most of the 'active ingredient' has long since evaporated and I should replace the stash in case I get another sore throat.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> I'll just interject my own thoughts here... "Pure distilled water" is a bit of a redundant name... "Pure" and "Distilled" sometimes meaning the same thing... but it is possible to distill some water and then contaminate it, meaning that it is no longer "just" Distilled water. Some Distilled water that you can buy at the grocery store may have "additives" put in it for some reason, either on purpose or accidently, or maybe just because the manufacturer is sloppy about eliminating contaminates.
> 
> *To distill water you must raise the temperature to 212 degrees and collect JUST the gaseous state of the water that is driven off at that temperature*... prior to reaching that temperature, there may be other liquid components that are in the water (alcohols, chlorine, etc.) that were driven off as the water was being raised in temperature and the manufacturer SHOULD have eliminated that from the collection vessel where the gaseous "water" (H2O) is to be cooled and collected to be sold in the jugs in the grocery store... if they were sloppy in doing that you might get a gallon of "Distilled water" that is not necessarily "pure". Same is true if they raise the temperature too high and drive off additional gaseous forms of chemicals in the raw water and that will get into the output, resulting in "distilled water" that is not quite "Pure".
> 
> ...



In Denver, CO, water boils at 203 degrees F. So you cannot get distilled water boiling water in Denver?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

One thing is corosion to the boilers another is electrolisis, so don't forget that. These are two completely different phenomenons that happen in boilers + the build up of scale is a third one. With distilled water we get rid of scale but we risk increassing corosion somewhat. The idea behind emptying the boiler and leaving the safety valves off so that some of the residual water will evaporate (hopefully) is that it solves electrolisis. There remains corosion but on our copper boilers silver soldered this is a slow process which should last a lifetime.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> In Denver, CO, water boils at 203 degrees F. So you cannot get distilled water boiling water in Denver?


They are so high on MJ fumes in Denver that they don't care if the water is distilled or not.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

du-bousquetaire said:


> One thing is corosion to the boilers another is electrolisis, so don't forget that. These are two completely different phenomenons that happen in boilers + the build up of scale is a third one. With distilled water we get rid of scale but we risk increassing corosion somewhat. The idea behind emptying the boiler and leaving the safety valves off so that some of the residual water will evaporate (hopefully) is that it solves electrolisis. There remains corosion but on our copper boilers silver soldered this is a slow process which should last a lifetime.


?????????????????

Tap water, potable water, is a weak electrolyte due to the dissolved minerals in the water. Purified water is an insulator. There is no electrolysis between dissimilar metals in the presence of an insulator. Electrolysis corrosion in our small scale live steam copper boilers using distilled water is pretty much non-existent.. Well, maybe in a couple three centuries. 

"Galvanic corrosion is caused by self-induced current created by electrical potential of two dissimilar metals in contact with an electrolyte. It can occur when two dissimilar metals (such as copper tube and steel pipe) are connected in the presence of an electrolyte. Fresh potable water is a weak electrolyte."
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS697US697&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=electrolysis+of+water+corrosion

The electrical conductivity of ultra-pure water is 5.5 × 10−8 S/cm (18 MΩ·cm in the reciprocal terms of electrical resistivity)


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

In Denver, CO, water boils at 203 degrees F. So you cannot get distilled water boiling water in Denver? 

Hmmm ? Tell that to all of my Accucraft and Roundhouse steamers running on distilled water and steaming at 40 PSI. 

Have seen the effects of water from the tap in several second hand Wilesco steamers. I have had to descale 3 of them from lime-scale buildup . I only run distilled water in them now and drain the boiler completely when done. 

Keep steaming on .

Charles M SA#74


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Chris, I have been staying out of this thread because I realize that this seems to be a lightning rod issue among live steamers, and with three years experience around here, folks may tend to be either dismissive of any comment I may make . . . or perhaps they will simply choose to to think that they know better. 

Your post seems to be among the best of a collection of posts that are somewhat contradictory and which contain misinformation. I am not going to identify which I think is which. 

My recommendation would be for folks to forget what they think they know and do a little online research on the subjects of: 

Distilled water 
Deionized water 
UPW 
Corrosive properties of various types of purified water 

If one uses a little common sense, It's really _a tempest in a teapot issue_ unless one is determined that one's precious live steam models are going to be passed down through the next six generations. Even then, it's still not a big deal.

For me, it is a matter of using distilled water and then blowing out the boiler and drying it out . . . and my heirs and I will be fine. Edit: As Charles M. suggests above.

Tap water with mineral content is a no-no for me. Putting in a teaspoon of tap water seems downright silly.

If we really want folks to become apoplectic, all we have to do is suggest that there isn't really all that much to be worried about when choosing a model with a brass boiler. 

Oh noes! . . . . . 

I have some Saito boilers and a Krick boiler from the 1970s that are fine and will be usable long after I am gone . . . and my son is gone.

I am going to grab some popcorn and watch what happens next, lol.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> I'll just interject my own thoughts here... "Pure distilled water" is a bit of a redundant name... "Pure" and "Distilled" sometimes meaning the same thing... but it is possible to distill some water and then contaminate it, meaning that it is no longer "just" Distilled water. Some Distilled water that you can buy at the grocery store may have "additives" put in it for some reason, either on purpose or accidently, or maybe just because the manufacturer is sloppy about eliminating contaminates.
> 
> To distill water you must raise the temperature to 212 degrees and collect JUST the gaseous state of the water that is driven off at that temperature... prior to reaching that temperature, there may be other liquid components that are in the water (alcohols, chlorine, etc.) that were driven off as the water was being raised in temperature and the manufacturer SHOULD have eliminated that from the collection vessel where the gaseous "water" (H2O) is to be cooled and collected to be sold in the jugs in the grocery store... if they were sloppy in doing that you might get a gallon of "Distilled water" that is not necessarily "pure". Same is true if they raise the temperature too high and drive off additional gaseous forms of chemicals in the raw water and that will get into the output, resulting in "distilled water" that is not quite "Pure".
> 
> ...


It's not quite the 19th century method you're describing.  Below some Commercial, Industrial water purification equipment. The chances of introducing contamination is pretty much non-existent. The first shows you don't necessarily a fire underneath a pot boiling the water at 212 degrees. Commercially the process is continuous closed loop from raw water to purified water bottled and on the store shelf. A hospital, pharma plant, laboratory would have on-site water purification. 









Below: The Samsco WasteSaver™ is a dual-effect, vacuum distillation evaporator that uses low-pressure steam to evaporate wastewater under vacuum at very low temperature. The steam is then condensed and returned for reuse as clean, distilled water. By evaporating under vacuum, the system can return many valuable process streams to their primary uses, which allows for a complete, closed-loop system.


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