# Protecting Adjacent Tracks across Isolated Turnouts?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am sure that I am not alone in that I run dual mainlines with turnouts (switches) to drive trains from storage to the different mainlines. As I do this I jumper both mainlines together so a single power supply runs both mainlines.

Once I get the trains to the mainline where I want them I often disconnect the jumpers so each mainline can be controlled independent from the other. Electrically this is easy to do and the tracks are insulated from each other with plastic (insulated) joiners.

My concern is that Murphy's Law is always present and I KNOW that either I or someone else will eventually forget and drive a train through that crossing or a loco (or two axle coach or caboose) will split the switch. Either way the result will be a direct short between both power supplies which could cause damage even if the polarity is the same but worse yet if the polarity of the two mainlines happens to be reversed and there is a relatively high voltage and or current.

I am looking for some sort of (easily removeable) physical barrier that would stop any locomotive or rolling stock from going across the insulated joiners and mechanically prevent a short between the mainlines.

I do not have any space available to change the configuration. The turnouts MUST be directly connected from the curve of one to the curve of another.

Has anyone found a good solution (physical barrier) to prevent a train shorting across the insulated joiners?

The LGB 10250 Wheel Stops are the best idea I have but I am not sure they would be good enough for the purpose.














Thanks,

Jerry


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

"Has anyone found a good solution?" - Ummmm........yes!







(Note that I _didn't_ say it!!!)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
Since you run table tops... 
I'd suggest a solenoid powered plunger, muonted under your track, between two ties, activated and a bar pops up to stop anything from crossing, release and it falls back out of the way. 
Control it from your power source or near area, as you choose. 
Add an extension as needed. A lever can be added to increase throw, adjust the pivot point from throw to vary heights. 
Could also be mounted in a horizontal position with a spring instead of gravity to retract... that necessity probably would be established by the solenoid. 
I'm thinking a powered door lock as a source, maybe from a junker... 
John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi John,

In this case it would not work because the layout I am concerned about is on an outside deck. What makes it impossible is not only how difficult it would be to get under the deck but also because I found a little Copperhead sunning himself by one end of that deck. He was laying on top of some track wiring so rather than shoot him where he was I tried to flip him out where I could make him a good snake with a 12 gauge. Instead he slipped under the deck and I don't know how many siblings he has or where momma and poppa might be.

On the other hand you have a great idea. I may get some large "U" bolts and drill holes to slide them into but not through the decking. The holes could be deep enough to support the "U" bolts but not through the deck which might allow them to come down on the rails (I'll insulate them to be on the safe side).

That's a much better idea than the LGB wheel stops.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 28 Apr 2010 10:05 AM 
"Has anyone found a good solution?" - Ummmm........yes!







(Note that I _didn't_ say it!!!)


Gee...

I wonder what Steve might be referring to? 












Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This shows the two pairs of crossover turnouts that I want to protect from trains going from one mainline to the other:













This shows the passenger/freight yard that needs to be shared by both mainlines:












For Steve's benefit I will point out that there are NINE LGB 0-4-0's with EIGHT LGB Motorized Sound Tenders plus a Circus Sound Car, SIX lighted cabooses and EIGHT lighted coaches.

I would be curious how Steve or anyone else would suggest a LOGICAL reason, way and - lets not forget the cost (and huge amount of work) to convert ALL of these to battery power. I will add that aside from the cabooses (I added lights and track pickups) these are ALL the way they came from the factory. 
It would be interesting to hear where someone would suggest putting the batteries in the 0-4-0's (WITH Motorized Sound Cars) that are pulling the little ore cars. Of course it would have to be all or nothing since I would still need the protected crossover if everything could not be converted to battery power. If anyone gets past this we can discuss the Moguls, Forneys, F7's, Mikados, FA-1's, Fortuna Flyer etc. 


Gee. Battery power is such an easy and logical solution for everything isn't it?









Actually I probably need to replace the eight nine volt batteries because I have not run any of these trains for at least a year.

Unlike battery power I did not have to recharge or replace any expensive batteries and everything ran the instant I flipped a switch to power the track the trains were parked on. 

Of additional interest they are all parked on pretty inaccessible sidings with just a nine inch clearance between the track and the layout above.











I suspect that if they had been converted to battery power I would be really cussing battery power as I tried to get Nine 0-4-0's and eight motorized tenders with dead batteries out from the sidings they were parked on.

Cheers,

Jerry 

The guy who hates batteries


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

*Jerry..Not sure but it look like your crossing switches are auto operated. and tided together so when you throw one the other switch operates with it. If that's correct and not sure but your switch mach. look like LGB motors.. LGB made a autillary set add on contacts to go on the end of the LGB SW motor that you could use a DBL Pole/ Dbl Throw relay that can work off the autillary SW motor. This would engage both track power to one and disable the other throttle.... Then no short cir. Throw the tracks back to both main line and both throttle are engaged again. *
* Just an idea..*
*I maybe missing something in your post tho. Another way is to have a one foot or more dead section between track switches that can be manual tuned off by a panel off and on switch. Means widening the main line in that area.*


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Fast acting fuses in the power lines. They have slow blow and fast blow. What ( may have missed this) power packs you running? The should be able to with stand a second of a short till the fuse blows.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Noel is absolutely correct that this could be done electrically using LGB EPLs and/or relay logic such that when the turnout is thrown a power supply is cut off from its track so there would be no chance of electrial connection between supplies.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By noelw on 28 Apr 2010 04:29 PM 
*Jerry..Not sure but it look like your crossing switches are auto operated. and tided together so when you throw one the other switch operates with it. If that's correct and not sure but your switch mach. look like LGB motors.. LGB made a autillary set add on contacts to go on the end of the LGB SW motor that you could use a DBL Pole/ Dbl Throw relay that can work off the autillary SW motor. This would engage both track power to one and disable the other throttle.... Then no short cir. Throw the tracks back to both main line and both throttle are engaged again. *
*Just an idea..*
*I maybe missing something in your post tho. Another way is to have a one foot or more dead section between track switches that can be manual tuned off by a panel off and on switch. Means widening the main line in that area.*


Hi Noel,

You are right about the switches and how I have them wired. Your suggestion would probably work but I don't know if I could depend on it in the case of a loco splitting a switch rather than throwing it far enough for the LGB DPDT switch to work. There is also a question in my mind regarding the current capacity of the LGB DPDT switch in that I occasionally run a F1 ABBA with sound systems and pulling up to 12 lighted Streamliners (around 8+ amps at 20+ volts). Currently I have the mainlines wired with 10 gauge stranded wire.

I appreciate the suggestion.

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By toddalin on 28 Apr 2010 04:51 PM 
Noel is absolutely correct that this could be done electrically using LGB EPLs and/or relay logic such that when the turnout is thrown a power supply is cut off from its track so there would be no chance of electrial connection between supplies.



Then of course you could do with Tod and Noel suggested


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Jerry 

Who's bildings are you using....especiall the last 4 in the bottom left of the picture


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 28 Apr 2010 04:46 PM 
Fast acting fuses in the power lines. They have slow blow and fast blow. What ( may have missed this) power packs you running? The should be able to with stand a second of a short till the fuse blows. 

Hi JJ,

I will be using a variety of power supplies and will often be mixing them. Currently I am running a pair of Bridgewerks (3 amp and 15 amp). When they get here I will be running Aristo 15 amp units and at times I will have all analog, sometimes analog on 1 track and MTS, DCC, DCS or Revolution on the other (or any mix of any of them).

Today I am running with a 1994 Train Engineer on both tracks. Tomorrow there will be a 1994 TE on one main and a 1996 TE on the other (with independent power supplies). The TE's have 10 amp fuses but both are long out of production and if I blow them there apparently are no parts to repair them.

I am not an electronics engineer so I am very cautious about any possibility of connecting the output of one transformer to the output of another. I can see a possibility of up to 240 volt differential between the transformers/power supplies. It can take less than a second to fry some electronics such as decoders and sound systems so I want to be extra cautious and not take any chances of blowing anything expensive.

Perhaps I am being overly cautious but most of my equipment is either out of production or out of warranty.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 28 Apr 2010 07:14 PM 
Hey Jerry 

Who's bildings are you using....especiall the last 4 in the bottom left of the picture 

Hi JJ,

The buildings are in need of a lot of repairs which I hope to do soon.

Most of the buildings are Pola with others by Piko and more are from Aristo-Craft. Then there are some by Model Power and probably a few other brands. The majority were purchased used (I once drove home from Knoxville, TN with 19 assembled buildings in a Ford Contour. That was a sight to see. 


These photos are perhaps easier to recognize. They were taken when everything was a lot newer.

I believe the buildings you were asking about are all Pola.























I actually started out with bird houses (there are a few remaining below).










Jerry


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Jerry, if you never decided on a solution....

I would (and when I setup my three lines, I will do this for my crossovers) Cut the rails as close to the frog as possible. Either a hacksaw or a thin-blade dremel cutoff tool. Insulated joiners on both ends of the rails. This would create an "island" between the switches instead of just an insulated joint. This island I would/will be powered through a momentary-on DPST switch... as soon as you let go of the switch, the power would be cut to the entire island track, providing... a 6-8" electrical barrier between tracks. The momentary on add another layer of safety... you can't forget to turn the power to the island off.


And, just for the fun of it... Convert the or cars from empties to loads... use the loads to hide the batteries. Something that small you could place a piece of styrofoam over the batteries and glue coal, twigs, iron pyrate, whatever.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jgallaway81 on 16 Jun 2010 10:40 AM 
Jerry, if you never decided on a solution....



I got sidetracked with some other issues but hopefully I will soon going to be back to running trains including on those crossover turnouts.

In my case I usually go with the simplest (to install) and cheapest solution.

What I will probably do is to drill two holes parallel to the track and then take 6" wide U bolts (holes drilled to match) and just slide them down above the rails with nuts keeping the top bar of the U bolts perhaps 2" above the crossover. A bit of heat shrink or electrical tape will keep the U bolts from accidentally shorting anything out.

With the U bolts slid into the decking, the decking should provide sufficient strength to hold the U bolts well enough to stop any loco that tries to accidentally cross the blocked crossover. 

I have not tried it yet but it sounds (to me) like it should work,

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jerry


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Hit a U-bolt with a USA GP-9 step and the step is toast.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 16 Jun 2010 02:51 PM 
Hit a U-bolt with a USA GP-9 step and the step is toast.


Good point. I may want to drop the U bolt down to the track level.

The whole idea is to NOT need it. 

My concern is what can happen electrically when two different power supplies are shorted together via a crossover.


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## Dale W (Jan 5, 2008)

Jerry
Slip several heavy rubber bands over the open end of the u-bolt before installing to allow for a soft catch.

Dale


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 16 Jun 2010 05:22 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 16 Jun 2010 02:51 PM 
Hit a U-bolt with a USA GP-9 step and the step is toast.


Good point. I may want to drop the U bolt down to the track level.

The whole idea is to NOT need it. 

My concern is what can happen electrically when two different power supplies are shorted together via a crossover.


Don't worry about it. Design the system correctly to do what you need it to do and let it do its thing.

Once properly functioning, chances of failure are in all probability less than an engine simply derailing on a piece of ballast or foreign object and having the truck cross to the other rail shorting out the system and burning out the internal traces in the engine. (That's my biggest bug-a-boo.) You don't continually worry about such things do you? Just part of the hobby. 

If its any consolation, I run three separate power packs and on occasion a block switch is improperly thrown so that an engine crosses from one power pack to another. If the polarities are aligned, the engines pass though without problem. If the polarities are thrown opposite, the engines tend to studder back and forth between the block gap until I notice it and correct the situation, but I don't recall tripping a circuit breaker let alone burning out a supply. Of course your mileage may vary.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dale W on 16 Jun 2010 07:08 PM 
Jerry
Slip several heavy rubber bands over the open end of the u-bolt before installing to allow for a soft catch.

Dale 



Hi Dale,

That is a good idea. I will do that.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 16 Jun 2010 07:33 PM 


Don't worry about it. Design the system correctly to do what you need it to do and let it do its thing.

Once properly functioning, chances of failure are in all probability less than an engine simply derailing on a piece of ballast or foreign object and having the truck cross to the other rail shorting out the system and burning out the internal traces in the engine. (That's my biggest bug-a-boo.) You don't continually worry about such things do you? Just part of the hobby. 


In the past I have had crossover shorts with expensive LGB power supplies with no problems. I have since added some much less expensive power supplies which leaves me wondering if they may be less capable of withstanding crossover shorts.

The worst problem I have had was to have a track shoe on a LGB Track Cleaning Loco heat up and melt the plastic capturing the shoe and spring. It was my fault (reverse polarity on a reverse loop) and I told them so but LGB of America went ahead and repaired the TCL at no cost. Now that LGBoA and LGB's famous service are not the same as they once were I am more concerned about such things than I used to be.

Sometimes I screw up and usually (not always) catch it quickly but sometimes a visitor may screw something up and not realize it or know what needs to be done about it.

I don't constantly worry about things but when things like his occur to me I like to come to MLS and find out how others may be handling the situation.

Jerry


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

I have a cross over very much like the one you show in your first picture. I use it to roll a string of cars from one separately controlled mainline to the other. First, The crossover has insulated joiners on both rails, preventing any current pass between them. Second, the I only run trains in the direction opposite to where they could go into the turnover while running under track power. Finally, I ONLY move trains across the crossover, when the power is OFF. I just push a string of cars over, and then turn on the power. I know it is cool, to run them back and forth with an engine, but for electrically challenged me, that would be a prescription for disaster. 
Finally, that U bolt thing sounds very scary. I think for me that would also be trouble.

Paul


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