# National Summer Steamup 2011: Highlights



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The first opportunity to post a highlight with what probably be the longest train pulled at the meet (guess how many cars) with engineers- Alan, Ryan and Matt:


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## Westport (Nov 28, 2009)

Thank you, Charles, for the video of the steamup, please continue with more of the same for those of us who could not make it down there this year! 
Hopefully, Dan Pantages did eventually get some steam up on his loco. 
Myron Claridge


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

End of another session of live steam:


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

A full schedule on the sign up board as action went late into the night.....


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, what do you know about the Jubilee 4-4-4 running towards the end of the second video? Is it scratch built, or a cut-down Hudson? 

Enjoyed seeing Dwight's CF running again. Looks like the engineer could use a defroster for the cab windows. 

Larry


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Great videos.... Really enjoyed Dwight's NPC 21....









Did I count more than 100 PFE cars on the long train??????


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 16 Jul 2011 12:27 AM 
End of another session of live steam:



Who makes the red yellow coaches on the euro train crosssing the bridge?? are they costly??
At 1.25 on the timer.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

My guess would be Marklin, or LGB European style coaches. Regal


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## Westport (Nov 28, 2009)

Larry, I believe that the CPR Jubilee is David Leech's as I know he was working on one, and also he is pictured watching it and his carriages go by in the video. He had a couple of engines -not sure if Aster or Accucraft-that were purchased damaged, and was modifying them. One is to be a CPR Selkirk-a 2-10-4; I did not realize that he had finished the Jubilee.. 
Myron Claridge


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## nadnerbster (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for the videos Charles! 

Has there been any sign of the Accucraft EBT12 there yet . . . ? I'd heard that the corrected production sample had been flown to the US and would debut at the NSS . . .


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 16 Jul 2011 10:16 AM 
Posted By Charles on 16 Jul 2011 12:27 AM 
End of another session of live steam:





Who makes the red yellow coaches on the euro train crosssing the bridge?? are they costly??
At 1.25 on the timer.


Charles - the British BR coaches in 'blood and custard' look like those made by Tower Models here in yUK. The entire train is British, not a 'Euro train' by any stretch of the imagination. The locomotive looks to me to be an Aster 'Duchess'. The coaches retail at around £700 each, depending on which type they are [all passenger, combine, restaurant and so on]. They are a very popular range of economy grade models that nevertheless look good behind any Britsh locomotive. There are also a number of some superior custom models made here in UK - a recent query about Harriman coaches can be researched by those with the facility to do so. Such Gauge 1 models hit the £1200-1500 mark very easily, but are wondrous to behold - one manufacturer makes a full range of chocolate and cream Pullmans with full interiors are just mouth-watering...just the thing to put behind the upcoming Aster rebuilt Merchant Navy Class Pacific.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/

PS - AFAIK neither Maerklin nor the late LGB ever made 1/32nd scale British outline coaches. LGB in particular NEVER made a British anything on any scale. 

PPS - Mr Leech's model is just too good to be true.


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## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

*Myron, at the end of the first video that looks like Neil Simpson's Radio Controlled Roundhouse Atlantic with the LGB ore cars.*
*Always a good runner and proof in the video. Dan is looking at his watch....wonder if the train pulled out on time?*

*What was the total count on the cars?*
* Great videos Charles .*
*Peter.*


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The five days of steam up was amazing with the variety of the locomotives and trains on the tracks.






As to the David Leech Jubilee, it was a Paul Huntington (master builder) locomotive. This past early spring Paul sold a majority of his collection. I made a trade for his services with the CP Jubilee.


There was a couple of Accucraft show pieces at the meet and I got video to highlight what was offered to show and tell.

Bill Allen had his amazing Garratt and new Double Fairlie as present both on track and at workshop presentation.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Great videos, Charles, many thanks for posting. That Double Fairlie just has to be the star of the show for me - what a wondrous piece of model engineering it is. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

You're right Peter - that's the Atlantic pulling out behind the Daylight on the inside track with 8 of Kevin's 40190 ore cars - track share for the finish of his run and then sharing the track with Dan and his S2. It is so nice to have a bullet proof engine at a vey busy and public event. Total count on the freight cars was 104. A few more goodies to bring home and lots of good memories and laughs. I'm sorry to say you guys really missed a good one..... 
Cheers, Neil.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

* Sure looks like a great time. Wish I would not have to fly to get there.*


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve
One has to do what has to be done.....its worth the flight. Ship and fly!

Another installment #4:


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

My contribution...



Yours truly and the East Coast Contingent...










Stan - there were indeed 100 reefers. If they'd added five more, the lead locomotive could have coupled to the caboose, and they were on the BIG track. It has to be 70' x 30-40'!!!

Steve, Charles is right. You should make the effort to come to the NSS at least once! I'm sure you'd have a blast! Besides, between you and the rest of your local group, even driving wouldn't be that bad if you split up the time behind the wheel. Or do what Charles and Alan do... pack everything well in a common crate and ship it.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight
Great having you spend time with the Northeast steamers, thanks for the company!

This video has a few particular highlights:
Bill Allen's Garratt
Steamdad (Lon) rebuild boiler original gas to alcohol
100 mph SP doublehead train
150 mph SP Daylight


One more video and photo to post later:


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## dmcole (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By nadnerbster on 16 Jul 2011 01:42 PM 
Thanks for the videos Charles! 

Has there been any sign of the Accucraft EBT12 there yet . . . ? I'd heard that the corrected production sample had been flown to the US and would debut at the NSS . . . 
I missed actually seeing the EBT12 run, but I watched as Cliff carried it back into the dealer room; he seemed happy  ...

I was told that it lit straight away, steamed up with relative speed (apparently it has a huge boiler) and ran well straight out of the crate. But those are second-hand reports.

\dmc


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I get a bit nostalgic for photos, instead of videos. A 100 car reefer train takes several minutes and all looks the same . . . 

But I liked the video of Dwight's cab-forward and the UK stuff. Pity there's no way to put a chapter index up front so you can skip the boring bits (hastily ducks under the table.)


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I get a bit nostalgic for photos, instead of videos.Gary and Carla were there, and Carla took her usual huge quantity of photos. All that needs to happen now is for Gary to get off his butt and post them. hehehe You listening Gary?







Pity there's no way to put a chapter index up front so you can skip the boring bits (hastily ducks under the table.)There is in a way. Grab the slider control and drag it forward to fast-forward the video clip.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete
You can find some photos on my flickr account:

NSS photos


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles
How many do you have in atteendance. Looks pretty crowded compared to DH. As someone sugggested there are enough here to rent aBig Rv and drive out with a bubch of great engines,
Regards Art


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 18 Jul 2011 05:04 PM 
Charles
How many do you have in atteendance. Looks pretty crowded compared to DH. As someone sugggested there are enough here to rent aBig Rv and drive out with a bubch of great engines,
Regards Art

Art
Maybe David Cole would have the actual number of registrations....my guess by the sign up boards probably over 150...

Here is my finale unedited 6th video with highlights:
Double Fairlie
Hot time in steamtown
Speed runs
Coal firing
Custom engines
Prototypes


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## nadnerbster (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks  Wish I could've been there!


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 17 Jul 2011 05:38 PM 
My contribution...












Stan - there were indeed 100 reefers. If they'd added five more, the lead locomotive could have coupled to the caboose, and they were on the BIG track. It has to be 70' x 30-40'!!!

Now, that is a real good looking group of live steamers..... (I think)









Great video contribution, Dwight.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Stan. I don't take photos and video in the quantities I used to. Besides, Carla was there with her ever-present camera... how can anyone compete with that? hehehe 

Charles - Great videos and coverage! Good job! Great to see you, Ryan, and Alan again. Enjoyed the dinner! Just wish Jeff could have made it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Grab the slider control and drag it forward to fast-forward the video clip. 

Only if you know what is there and where it is. 

Here is my finale unedited 6th video with highlights: 
Double Fairlie 

And I thought Charles was giving me the Chapter index - but the video seemed to have no relation to the list! What happened Charles?


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## dmcole (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 18 Jul 2011 05:04 PM 
How many do you have in atteendance. Looks pretty crowded compared to DH. As someone sugggested there are enough here to rent aBig Rv and drive out with a bubch of great engines,


Art:

We haven't done a final count yet, but I believe the number will be closer to 130 rather than 150.

This year we instituted a new class of participant, the "observer," who paid $25 to visit the steam hall, the clinics and the dealer room. There were more than 30 of those people, so a lot of the crowd you see in pictures and videos doesn't effect the amount of run time.

There is also a lot more track in Sacramento than there is in Diamondhead -- the NSS has nine different loops to run on. While the two large tracks, which have sign-up boards, are always booked, the two smaller tracks always seemed to have at least one open loop.

And, like Diamondhead, if you're willing to run early in the morning or late at night, track time is a breeze to get.

HTH.

\dmc


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By dmcole on 19 Jul 2011 10:23 AM 
Posted By gibs035 on 18 Jul 2011 05:04 PM 
How many do you have in atteendance. Looks pretty crowded compared to DH. As someone sugggested there are enough here to rent aBig Rv and drive out with a bubch of great engines,


Art:

We haven't done a final count yet, but I believe the number will be closer to 130 rather than 150.

This year we instituted a new class of participant, the "observer," who paid $25 to visit the steam hall, the clinics and the dealer room. There were more than 30 of those people, so a lot of the crowd you see in pictures and videos doesn't effect the amount of run time.

There is also a lot more track in Sacramento than there is in Diamondhead -- the NSS has nine different loops to run on. While the two large tracks, which have sign-up boards, are always booked, the two smaller tracks always seemed to have at least one open loop.

And, like Diamondhead, if you're willing to run early in the morning or late at night, track time is a breeze to get.

HTH.

\dmc

Maybe I can generate some interest in coming out West next year. That is if you people don't divide the State into two parts and make it difficult for us Texans to decide if we want to make that trip.
Charles the timing of the GS_4 could not have been better to close your videos. Great job.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 19 Jul 2011 08:35 AM 
Grab the slider control and drag it forward to fast-forward the video clip. 

Only if you know what is there and where it is. 

Here is my finale unedited 6th video with highlights: 
Double Fairlie 

And I thought Charles was giving me the Chapter index - but the video seemed to have no relation to the list! What happened Charles? 
Pete
Just a quick reference as to what could be viewed but when I do the master tape we will make the DVD by chapter with locomotive reference. I really had very little time to do what I got done... 



Art 
Having attended both I highly recommend the NSS as an event that is a must...then again if you do not come then there will be more track time for the rest of us!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

And the point of this is?????? 
To see how many times you can go around? 
See who has the smoothest loco? 
just wondering. I'm tring to learn but just can't get into indoor circles off the floor???


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 19 Jul 2011 03:48 PM 
And the point of this is?????? 
To see how many times you can go around? 
See who has the smoothest loco? 
just wondering. I'm tring to learn but just can't get into indoor circles off the floor??? Come on Marty....
The point is the same as your battery/steamup. A gathering of friends and hobbyists to enjoy running trains, telling stories and jokes, great BBQ, and discuss trains! Unless you are doing operational sessions at your place then your meet would be basically the same with outdoor scenery and structures. I guess we could do more operational sessions but that would limit participation. Many of our hobbyists are restricted in their ability to get up and down thus the format of a raised circle train is easy to access and operate a live steam engine. Secondly, operating a live steam engine even with RC needs to be monitored for it's vital signs and having it on the ground can make it difficult to do so. Having point to point operations on long straight sections for some trains of a realistic length is not possible indoors. Finally, as to having outdoors then there is security, as we all leave our equipment overnight.


One can learn from 

[*]all the different representations of trains from around the world (e.g. can you name the railroad of locomotive other than US prototypes and their history and development?)
[*]master builders of custom one off locomotives and trains (e.g. could you build a Double Fairlie or any steam locomotive)
[*]many knowledgeable individuals who give clinics[*]how to build coaches[*]how to coal fire a locomotive (have you ever fired by coal)
[*]the history of small scale live steam (do you know how the early 1800's live steam engines influenced the hobby)
[*]how to operate a "REAL" steam engine[*]opportunity for the youth to participate along side with experience hobbyists[*]Much more depends on one's interaction with the other there having FUN!
[/list]BTW- You might be surprise how few laps one can have if they do not know how to balance fuel, water, oil, throttle, blower, reverser (cut off) in combination with a particular train for a running session. One can easily be sidelined having run out of fuel, water, oil, etc.


Therefore, one is either "in the loop" or "out of the loop"


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## nadnerbster (Nov 19, 2009)

Posted By NTCGRR on 19 Jul 2011 03:48 PM 
And the point of this is?????? 
To see how many times you can go around? 
See who has the smoothest loco? 
just wondering. I'm tring to learn but just can't get into indoor circles off the floor??? 
One could ask, what is the point of the hobby at all? One could ask that of just about any hobby. Why do people go to car shows where cars just sit there and don't turn a wheel?

I go to events like this to run my trains (I don't have a railway as yet), to socialise, and to see other people's trains running. I enjoy all of it, and that's all the point there needs to be. If it's not for you, then fine, but there's no need to ask questions like the above. If we didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't do it. You wouldn't want people going around asking "what's the point of 1:29?" And I'd also say "don't knock it until you've tried it". 

Now, why are there "indoor circles"? Rather simply, because it's bloody difficult to do anything else, particularly for an event like this one. Live steam locomotives are frequently manually controlled - so a continuous, level run is best so operators don't have to chase their trains around. In this scale, you need wide curves - the wider the better - and it's necessary for the layout to fit in a space, to fit into a trailer or truck, and to be easy to set up/dismantle - oval shaped layouts do this best. Operators need to be able to access all parts of the track easily, and an oval is best at that, especially when there's a large number of participants.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

And the point of this is?????? Your tag line is, "Is it 'REAL' or just 1:29th"... well, these are REAL steam locomotives - miniature perhaps, but REAL just the same. The point for me is learning to build, maintain, and operate a REAL steam locomotive, to learn how they are constructed and the "why's" behind everything, and to learn their history and development. You like building things that photograph realistically, right? I like building things that operate realistically.... combustion boiling water and making steam, and that steam turning the wheels to make things move.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

To think Marty even built a raised oval for Live Steam now it is time for him to own a real Locomotive. 

Marty, 

The Arkansas Live Steamers will be at your battery/steamup. 
Maybe could get them to put some steam oil in your blood......LOL


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I can kinda see where Marty may have been coming from... 

For me, I find live steam locos running in circles on unlandscaped raised ovals to be operationally and aesthetically boring. All of my live steam locos are very well mannered to where I quite literally "set them and forget them" when running on raised railroads. So in that regard, I definitely agree with his sentiment. I'd much rather see them operating on a landscaped railroad with scale plants and trees surround them. It adds significantly to the realism they bring to the hobby. Throw some mild grades into the equation, and you're really "running" your locomotive. That, too, adds tremendously to the experience, as your hand is constantly on the throttle, not just sitting passively in "cruise control." You've got to pay attention to your fuel, water, and steam pressure, and grades, just like the real thing. Give me a well-mannered R/C controlled live steamer and a "typical" garden railroad any day over running in circles on an elevated track. There's no comparison in experience. 

That's not to say you won't find me running trains on elevated, unlandscaped loops. Of course you will--every chance I get (which is unfortunately all to infrequent.) But when I run my locos in that environment, I'm doing so simply because I want to watch something of mine run around while socializing with other modelers. I want to show them my latest toys. In many cases, I'm just as happy to watch others' trains run and not run anything myself. (Lots of folks go to Diamondhead sans locomotives--whether they stay that way or buy something there, well...) These events, for me at least, aren't about how the trains operate. Operating the trains is merely an excuse to get together, and raised ovals are the minimalist means to allow us to do so. From a social standpoint, it makes no difference what the track looks like. When I'm in the mood to "operate" my live steamer, that's what my own railroad is for. 

Later, 

K


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 19 Jul 2011 11:28 PM 
I can kinda see where Marty may have been coming from... 

For me, I find live steam locos running in circles on unlandscaped raised ovals to be operationally and aesthetically boring. All of my live steam locos are very well mannered to where I quite literally "set them and forget them" when running on raised railroads. So in that regard, I definitely agree with his sentiment. I'd much rather see them operating on a landscaped railroad with scale plants and trees surround them. It adds significantly to the realism they bring to the hobby. Throw some mild grades into the equation, and you're really "running" your locomotive. That, too, adds tremendously to the experience, as your hand is constantly on the throttle, not just sitting passively in "cruise control." You've got to pay attention to your fuel, water, and steam pressure, and grades, just like the real thing. Give me a well-mannered R/C controlled live steamer and a "typical" garden railroad any day over running in circles on an elevated track. There's no comparison in experience. 

That's not to say you won't find me running trains on elevated, unlandscaped loops. Of course you will--every chance I get (which is unfortunately all to infrequent.) But when I run my locos in that environment, I'm doing so simply because I want to watch something of mine run around while socializing with other modelers. I want to show them my latest toys. In many cases, I'm just as happy to watch others' trains run and not run anything myself. (Lots of folks go to Diamondhead sans locomotives--whether they stay that way or buy something there, well...) These events, for me at least, aren't about how the trains operate. Operating the trains is merely an excuse to get together, and raised ovals are the minimalist means to allow us to do so. From a social standpoint, it makes no difference what the track looks like. When I'm in the mood to "operate" my live steamer, that's what my own railroad is for. 

Later, 

K 
Kevin
I do not see "where Marty is coming from..." given this approach to the topic. We all know that layouts are basically ovals (one can shape it any way you would like but "real railroads" did not run in circles it was point to point) whether they are hidden with garden scenery or raised track(unless the structures and scenery are frequently changed even a garden railroad can have a degree of boredom to it). Very few have layouts build for true operational purpose nor conduct them in such a manner. I have been there and done that in my hobby experiences. I no longer can physically get on hands and knees to do a garden railway, thus for me (and others) to enjoy the hobby a raised layout is the answer. I would like to have a layout such as Trevor with the wonderful "British" scenery and might yet. The situation and purpose of "indoor oval" has a different design (portable) and layout than a garden layout(duh). I doubt if there are many garden railways on the ground that can meet the demands as per NSS or Diamondhead in the course of a day. This steam up (and others of public display) had a large mass of people that can easily be accommodated given their distance, money and other expenses for attendance. 


As mentioned,Marty does have a steam up oval and thus could have posed his "wanting to learning" in a constructive manner. Such as posing questions- what is necessary to accommodate a live steam group, what about a schedule board, what rules are best to ensure proper operations and safety (btw- I have seen many accidents of RC NG live steam locomotives due to "set them and forget them"), is it best to use a track Marshall, how about the buddy system when running and so on to help ensure a successful steam up for all.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

At meets such as the NSS or DH, structures and plants would merely be in the way. Even on a home layout, and even if one has R/C in all their locomotives and the layout is relatively level, there are things which must be fiddled with like bypass valves, adding water, adding fuel, etc. Structures and plants can be a hindrance here even on an elevated layout. I ran a few times on ground level layouts that were sceniced. It can be done, but it complicates things (especially if one is older and has a harder time getting up and down off their knees). 

I couple times at the NSS, early on a Wednesday right after setup when the track was still clear, I did some mainline switching - trailing and facing point setouts and pickups using the steaming tracks as spurs and runarounds. My loco had R/C and it was a lot of fun. Unfortunately, once those steaming tracks fill up with other equipment waiting to run, such switching becomes impossible. It would be great to incorporate such moves into our operations at meets, but sadly it's almost always impractical given the circumstances.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Bring an engine to life, that you have built from a kit or from a set of plans is all the reason you need to be happy running on a raised loop. Most of the narrow gauge engines are not capable of "running away " at speeds hard to keep up with on foot. But if you design a main line engine with the ability to both start a long train and run at prototypical scale speeds, about 50 to 70 mph for a mikado, Berkshire, S-2, H-8, Challenger, Daylight. Hudson, K-4, Cab Forward, it will be capable of going as fast or faster then you can run. This requires one to "drive" the engine, either manually or with RC. It then requires a constant watch on the water glass and pressure gauge. So the running/driving the engine becomes a large part of the enjoyment. So you trade off scenery for "hands on" operation. Just ask anyone who has had the fun of operating a coal fired ride on size engine just how little time you have to be looking at scenery.... Scenery? thats for the passengers. 
It is also easier to watch the train on an elevated track. The gauge one track at PLS is the only one I know of that is "on the ground" with scenery but also elevated (on the inside) for the operators. For most, this would be very expensive to duplicate.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Very Nice video, happy crowd, made me want to try live steam. Thanks for the post.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont know how old Marty is and the other gentleman who likes the ground level scenic railroad, which by the way I enjoy watching, but I am 76 now and getting down on your hab=nds and knees to run live steam ,is not an easy task. I much prefer the elevated track set up we have at Steve;s and at Zube;s for my trains and the layout at John Frank's is great for the narrow gauge guiys.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I get the distinct impression that Marty's post was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, just one of those 4' 3-3/8" narrow gauge sparky diesel guys yanking the collective chain of those of us in the burnt-finger fraternity. But I will take the bait and answer Marty's signature question: Is it real or just 1:29? The answer is, "real" and "1:29" are not mutually exclusive anymore - you can get live steam in 1:29 now!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

In the olden days you actually had to "operate" a Gauge 1 live steamer. Coal fired, water pumps, water gauges, pressure gauges, blowers, ash pans, real boilers, a fire to maintain, no RC. You had to do everything the real drivers did except stand on the footplate. Alcohol replaced coal because it was "easier". No mess, no ash pans, nothing to clean up. Do away with water gauges and other plumbing because they are too expensive or not longer needed. Bring in butane and single flue boilers makes things real easy and convenient. Add the RC and now you can sit in a lounge chair, chew the fat with the buddies while running the engine. Kind of like a sparky.

No wonder it's boring to run on a simple, undecorated, indoor, flat track.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No wonder it's boring to run on a simple, undecorated, indoor, flat track. 
I know you were being somewhat tongue in cheek, but that's pretty much precisely my point. A lot of today's live steam locos are very "hands off" when running on a level track to where there's little actual interaction needed. "Stop every 10 times around, put 20 more squeezes of the water bottle into the Goodall valve... Every 30 minutes, refill the butane tank." That's pretty much it. Add a water displacement injector or a well-set axle pump, and you don't even need to stop to fill the boiler. It keeps things in check for you. Folks have posted on this forum many times of 45-minute run times without so much as adjusting the throttle. That's great in many ways, but it's also "boring" on two fronts. First, there's all the live steamers who extol the virtues of the interactivity; the burnt fingers, adjusting axle pumps, throttles, blowers, etc. to keep things going. On the second level, there's the fun of working your locomotive on a grade, with a train. Even with fuel and water on "auto," once you introduce grades into the equation and you're now forced to actually drive your locomotive lest you not make it up the hill. You have to anticipate where the grades are, make sure you've got ample pressure, and apply a little extra throttle to gently head up (then back the throttle way down near the top so you don't go racing off towards the bottom). It's that latter set of circumstances that cannot be replicated on a level track. And if you're that kind of operator--one who enjoys the challenge of actually driving the locomotive under differing track conditions--then level tracks, elevated or not, are somewhat unfulfilling. 

The point I was hoping to make is that at events like the NSS and DH, the expectation of operating challenges such as that are simply not there, and if you're looking specifically for that in a steam-up, you're going to be disappointed. If you're looking for those kinds of challenges in a steam-up, look for the ones hosted by someone who has their own landscaped railroad. (Jack Verducci's railroad is probably the foremost example of a live-steam operations railroad.) DH and NSS are primarily social events, and elevated undecorated tracks are the most efficient way to run the highest number of locos at any one time. Those tracks are perfect for those who like to/have to fiddle with their locos as they run, and they're perfect for operators with the more mild-mannered locos that don't need constant attention to just get out and run. 

The reality is that many live steamers could care less about a proper train behind their locos. It's typically all about the locomotive and how it runs. In the early days of Diamondhead, the number of folks who actually had a train to pull behind their locos was darned near zilch--and that was before TSA. My January work schedule precludes me from attending DH anymore (I'm off traveling around Colorado instead) so I can't speak to current trends, but even when I go to steam-ups at the Colo. RR museum, locomotives outnumber rolling stock. Those of us who approach live steam in terms of it being a more realistic approach to running a _railroad_ (as opposed to just the locomotive) are few and far between. But the reality is that we look at level loops of portable tracks as a necessary evil for the venue of these national gatherings, but would hardly be how we'd design our own railroads. 

Later, 

K


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin
"The reality is that many live steamers could care less about a proper train behind their locos. It's typically all about the locomotive and how it runs." Try tell that to some one running the improper coaches as per this prior conversation from a recent steam up:

Also, we'll 'let' Jim run his Pullman train behind the GWR loco, as there was indeed only 'one' Pullman train on the Great Western (the Torquay Pullman) that only ran for one year in 1929! 


My Brit friend with the Aster Castle was willing to lower his "prototype standards" for my personal convenience. I had offered to assemble a proper rake of GWR Collett coaches or a set of Bars I Toplights so he had a correct train. You are correct that GWR and Pullman had a contract for the years 1928-29, but my cars do not have the correct names for the Torquay Pullman. Fortunately the train was at speed so you did not notice that. You should be pleased that we were not pulling a set of SP Daylight cars behind the Castle. LOL. 


Personally, I doubt I would run my PRR coaches behind my SP GS4. There are times when one does not a have choice when traveling. In fact some would question my running of 4449 with the San Joaquin coaches this past meet as it ran the coastal route.



Bob
Your insight was indeed the true definition of "tongue-in-cheek" as I enjoyed the wit and cleverness of the point being made!! Thanks.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Somehow I don't doubt it. Of course, I'm almost equally OC about the cars on my trains, so I can identify.  

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

WOOW 
did i set off a land-mine. I was joking to a point. I love seeing folks running lots of live steamers on my raised loop . If the loop enables them to enjoy the hobby better , then I will spend the money and time. 

As Kevin said, I bring a train up and after a couple laps go back to the "big" loop that comes and goes and vanishes, and through tunnels and over bridges . 

Thats why the videos of RRs in the UK draws me so much more , they seem to have both on their RRs. 

If all they had at train shows was loops, I probably would stop going. 

OH well, I LOVE you guys, back to work in the heat and humidity..


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 20 Jul 2011 01:55 PM 
No wonder it's boring to run on a simple, undecorated, indoor, flat track. 
I know you were being somewhat tongue in cheek, but that's pretty much precisely my point. A lot of today's live steam locos are very "hands off" when running on a level track to where there's little actual interaction needed. "Stop every 10 times around, put 20 more squeezes of the water bottle into the Goodall valve... Every 30 minutes, refill the butane tank." That's pretty much it. Add a water displacement injector or a well-set axle pump, and you don't even need to stop to fill the boiler. It keeps things in check for you. Folks have posted on this forum many times of 45-minute run times without so much as adjusting the throttle. That's great in many ways, but it's also "boring" on two fronts. First, there's all the live steamers who extol the virtues of the interactivity; the burnt fingers, adjusting axle pumps, throttles, blowers, etc. to keep things going. On the second level, there's the fun of working your locomotive on a grade, with a train. Even with fuel and water on "auto," once you introduce grades into the equation and you're now forced to actually drive your locomotive lest you not make it up the hill. You have to anticipate where the grades are, make sure you've got ample pressure, and apply a little extra throttle to gently head up (then back the throttle way down near the top so you don't go racing off towards the bottom). It's that latter set of circumstances that cannot be replicated on a level track. And if you're that kind of operator--one who enjoys the challenge of actually driving the locomotive under differing track conditions--then level tracks, elevated or not, are somewhat unfulfilling. 

The point I was hoping to make is that at events like the NSS and DH, the expectation of operating challenges such as that are simply not there, and if you're looking specifically for that in a steam-up, you're going to be disappointed. If you're looking for those kinds of challenges in a steam-up, look for the ones hosted by someone who has their own landscaped railroad. (Jack Verducci's railroad is probably the foremost example of a live-steam operations railroad.) DH and NSS are primarily social events, and elevated undecorated tracks are the most efficient way to run the highest number of locos at any one time. Those tracks are perfect for those who like to/have to fiddle with their locos as they run, and they're perfect for operators with the more mild-mannered locos that don't need constant attention to just get out and run. 

The reality is that many live steamers could care less about a proper train behind their locos. It's typically all about the locomotive and how it runs. In the early days of Diamondhead, the number of folks who actually had a train to pull behind their locos was darned near zilch--and that was before TSA. My January work schedule precludes me from attending DH anymore (I'm off traveling around Colorado instead) so I can't speak to current trends, but even when I go to steam-ups at the Colo. RR museum, locomotives outnumber rolling stock. Those of us who approach live steam in terms of it being a more realistic approach to running a _railroad_ (as opposed to just the locomotive) are few and far between. But the reality is that we look at level loops of portable tracks as a necessary evil for the venue of these national gatherings, but would hardly be how we'd design our own railroads. 

Later, 

K 
Also in the olden days most engines were scratch-built. Which meant having a machine shop or an extremely expensive purchase. Fortunately today, live steam is within everyone's budget. The hobby is growing and better for it. Our oldest club member is 88, it would be very difficult for him to participate without the RC control. 

I wish our live steam layouts were more decorated. They have to be relatively flat because we don't do well on grades. But they can be more colorful, interesting and have a sense of purpose. Add buildings, flat scenery, something. The Brit 16mm guys really do portables right, their stuff is gorgeous.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 20 Jul 2011 04:05 PM 
WOOW 
did i set off a land-mine. I was joking to a point. I love seeing folks running lots of live steamers on my raised loop . If the loop enables them to enjoy the hobby better , then I will spend the money and time. 

As Kevin said, I bring a train up and after a couple laps go back to the "big" loop that comes and goes and vanishes, and through tunnels and over bridges . 

Thats why the videos of RRs in the UK draws me so much more , they seem to have both on their RRs. 

If all they had at train shows was loops, I probably would stop going. 

OH well, I LOVE you guys, back to work in the heat and humidity.. 
I made a recommendation one time that our little group should have a battery powered switcher or something to help marshal cars around. From the reaction, you would have thought I shot a little puppy dog. I also suggested some little buildings too. "No way, we have one and that's it!!" There are some in this end of the hobby that will not budge off tradition. Can I cry in your beer?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 20 Jul 2011 07:12 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 20 Jul 2011 04:05 PM 
WOOW 
did i set off a land-mine. I was joking to a point. I love seeing folks running lots of live steamers on my raised loop . If the loop enables them to enjoy the hobby better , then I will spend the money and time. 

As Kevin said, I bring a train up and after a couple laps go back to the "big" loop that comes and goes and vanishes, and through tunnels and over bridges . 

Thats why the videos of RRs in the UK draws me so much more , they seem to have both on their RRs. 

If all they had at train shows was loops, I probably would stop going. 

OH well, I LOVE you guys, back to work in the heat and humidity.. 
I made a recommendation one time that our little group should have a battery powered switcher or something to help marshal cars around. From the reaction, you would have thought I shot a little puppy dog. I also suggested some little buildings too. "No way, we have one and that's it!!" There are some in this end of the hobby that will not budge off tradition. Can I cry in your beer? 
Bob
We are progressing along at our base club NJLS. We have electic, battery, live steam, diesel etc running along with some efforts to have "eye candy"....


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