# Building "smooth" gradients?



## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Evening All,

I am wanting to have gradients in my layout to create some interest; however, am having all sorts of problems getting them consistent and smooth just using dirt to create the rise. What I was thinking was to use an "elevated" method to achieve the grades then back fill to give the appearance the track is on the ground.

A little while ago I saw/read something about "commercial adjustable track risers" with what appeared to be road bed or a solid platform for the track. Has anyone seen that or know what I am speaking of? If so, can you give me the name of the stuff please.

Are there other options for creating a "true" and "consistent" grade though. I have considered using 8' lengths of 2" X 4" and supporting that with PVC tubing. The 2" X 4" is probably an over kill to be honest and would be hard to work for the curves as well, so am open to suggestions and whether or not I even need to have a "solid" base or if supports every X amount of inches/feet would suffice.

The only thing that concerns me a little is the effect of Frost Heave on any fixed support. If I use PVC pipe, would that be effected at all?

Again sorry for the newbie questions but I would really like to get the track work running smoothly and the gradients true and even.

Just to show how "uneven" and "wobbly" the layout is at the moment, take a look at this:

https://vimeo.com/133790311

Think this demonstrates what I want to fix  Ignore the "date/time stamp" too, haven't figured out how to change it on the camera.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

All I can say is wow are your rail tops shinny. That looked like a lot of polishing done. If you have any extra energy, mine are available. Just saying......


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Mickey,

Thanks I really didn't notice that. The track was cleaned using the great advice given by members here - a drywall sanding pole with a heavy duty Scotch Brite Pad attached. It took about 15 minutes to do the entire track and with very little effort. Well worth getting this set up, especially on the back. 

As for extra energy, if you live within an hour of me, I'd be more than happy to come and do your track


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You'll find a lot of threads on "ladder roadbed," which, with its staggered joints and long splines, handles the transitions almost automatically. 

You might consider using flex track (vs sectional), or at least on longer stretches. You can stagger its joints as well, which tends to smooth things out for the rail. Train Li's brass flex is LGB-compatible, and fairly priced I think. You'd need to borrow or buy a bender though.

Cliff


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Wombat

The product you are referring to in your original post is a PVC product mad by Split Jaw Products
Go here ==> http://www.railclamp.com/

On the home page click the "store" link and then click on roadbed in the lower right corner of the items displayed.

It is a very easy to use product, but costs almost as much as sectional track. It is ideal if you want to change your track configuration, have a small layout, or want to take everything with you if you move to a new home.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

This is how I do it.

Estimate the grade necessary from the starting and ending elevations and length between. For example, if I need 10" of elevation change over a run of 30 feet.

10" / (30' x 12" / ') = 0.0278 x 100% = 2.78% grade

Now take a 2' long bubble level and figure how much change is necessary.

2' x 12" / ' = 24"

24" x 2.78% / 100 = 0.67"

So for every 2 feet, you need to rise/lower 0.67 inches. 

Now find an object (e.g., block of wood, bolt, nut, etc.) that is this ~0.67" and tape it to the end of the level. If your block is not quite right, you can shim it using tape/sheet metal/whatever.

Start your grade by pounding a stake into the ground at the desired base elevation. Put the end of the level with the block taped to it on the stake and at the other end of the level (2' up the line) pound the next stake into the ground and continually monitor its progress by placing the level on it. When the bubble centers, you are at the desired grade.

Do the next 14 the same way (remember 30 feet of run divided by a 2 foot long level = 15 measurements).

Once you have the stakes in the desired position, go back and fill to grade. Initially, your track will be sitting on the stakes, but they can later be removed or just driven in further to rot if you are worried about frost heave.

You can re-grade the grade in the same way using a different sized block and pounding/pulling up the stakes if you find that your measurements were a bit off.


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

CliffyJ said:


> You'll find a lot of threads on "ladder roadbed," which, with its staggered joints and long splines, handles the transitions almost automatically.
> 
> You might consider using flex track (vs sectional), or at least on longer stretches. You can stagger its joints as well, which tends to smooth things out for the rail. Train Li's brass flex is LGB-compatible, and fairly priced I think. You'd need to borrow or buy a bender though.
> 
> Cliff


Cliff, I did consider using flex but the cost of a track bender did turn me off a bit. 



Dr Rivet said:


> Wombat
> 
> The product you are referring to in your original post is a PVC product mad by Split Jaw Products
> Go here ==> http://www.railclamp.com/
> ...


Dr Rivet, thank you yes that was what I was thinking of and darn, your right - it isn't cheap.



toddalin said:


> This is how I do it.
> 
> Estimate the grade necessary from the starting and ending elevations and length between. For example, if I need 10" of elevation change over a run of 30 feet.
> 
> ...


Toddalin, this is how I think I will end up doing it - I also like the idea of using wood for the "pylons" so they can rot away in time.

Thanks guys, might finally get something done to smooth-en things out a bit and get the track level from side to side over the next week or so.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes you will get frost heave, no matter what the material is... you have to have the end of the upright below the frost line.

2x4 is not overkill in terms of support, in fact it can be a bit lightweight if you don't support it enough. Many people use 2 x 6... (I'm not advocating this though, the wood eventually warps).

Ladder with synthetic material works well.

Remember that ballast can allow you to get the track level, it will take a little more maintenance, but can always be adjusted easily. 

If you affix the track to the ladder, then you do indeed need to be a lot more accurate in the structure up front.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

In western NY, there's no avoiding frost heave, and driving stakes down below frost line borders on requiring excavation permits. (Rochester's frost line is generally listed between 36" - 48".) When I lived in that neck of the woods, I simply floated my track. Every spring, I went through and checked the grading on everything to make sure things were smooth and even, which for 600' of track generally required a weekend's worth of work. That seemed to be the preferred method of trackwork out there. A few folks used pressure-treated 4x4s laid on their sides as a roadbed, or perhaps concrete blocks. The key there was to make sure that whatever the subroadbed was, it would "float" along with the track as the ground heaved. 

If I were to do something along those lines today, I'd use Trex or other synthetic material, and keep the sections as long as possible. But realistically, I'd probably just float the track and be done with it. My track here in CO is anchored to a PVC conduit subroadbed, and is no less work to smooth out every Spring than my old line in western NY. If it weren't for the kids and dogs running around the railroad, I'd probably just let mine float completely here as well.

Oh... and I know the cost of the railbenders gives many folks sticker shock, but it's well worth the money.

Later,

K


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

K

Thanks and I am going to maintain a "floating track". The only reason I wanted to know how to create the gradients was to give me the base to back fill with dirt and gravel for the sub road bed and why I Iiked the idea of using timber for that, so it would decay over time leaving the track work sitting on the road bed.

I have done some research and have found out that the frost line is between 36" and 80" below ground level and I certainly am not interested in getting permits or going down that far with anything


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

In Colorado, I never had problems with frost heaves. Probably because the ground was dry and frozen. Much of the snow evaporated and didn't go into the ground. In Virginia, the dirt is usually wet and after a long period of below ferrying weather my track gets uneven and I occasionally see ice crystals under the track. When we get a thaw everything goes back to normal.

Both layouts were trenches with ballest, nothing to be perminately deformed. Any problems could be easily handled with a trowel after the thaw.

My thought is that any fixed or solid structure might be more of a problem. No experience, just my thought.

Talk to locals, see what they do. My vote would be for floating on a well drained base.

Chuck


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Do not over look the concrete road bed method, a little more work up front, but when you are done you are done.
In above Cliff has done it, I know several that has done it, 
Look up JJ links on this site, way back in archives he shows how to do it, 
Then you can bring dirt up to it.
It is not as hard as it sounds.
Dennis


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Thanks guys, 

Chuck, everything I have read says to use the floating track method to save on having to spend a lot of time on track maintenance at the end of winter. 

Dennis, your suggestion would certainly be a more permanent one and I'm not adverse to doing a little concreting. The only thing that concerns me a little is the frost heave impact on something like that. I will try to find the JJ links to see what he did and am sure that it is n't a difficult task.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Gidday Wombat,

I used 3/4" PVC pipe to set the grade and curves on my layout - not my idea, borrowed from here and some books.

The pipe sets up the curves and grades very smoothly, I then backfilled with dirt and crusher dust and mostly floated my track. The pipe can be left in or removed - I left it there since I'm a temperate climate.

You'll need a rail bender to shape the track to match the pipe but as others have mentioned I don't think you'll regret purchasing one.

Early pic showing how it looks..









Cheers
Neil


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Word of caution on the PVC pipe Neil shows, as that's similar/identical to what I used. I found that on my railroad, with expansion and contraction, the pipe has a tendency to "roll" up over the gravel as the forces push and pull from side to side, creating something of a scalloped profile as it rises up between the support posts. 

I've now got my pipe anchored every 2 - 3' now to rebar stakes, which seems to mitigate this problem, and then my track is attached to this pipe only ever 5' or so, so the movement of the pipe doesn't have as dramatic effect on the track as it did when I first installed it where the track was attached to the pipe every 2 - 3'. 

Neil, have you noticed anything like that with yours? It could be a climate thing. Here, were I to do something like this again, I'd either just use a ladder system, or simply drive support posts every so often and just let the track float between the posts.

Later,

K


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Im also in Western NY, and im not going to put anything *in* the soil..only *on* the soil.
The live steam guys around here often make raised tracks, like this:










The concrete blocks sit *on* the soil..they rise and fall with any frost heave, then settle back down to their original spot...so that works fine, even in this climate.

but when you have posts *in* the soil, the frost heave raises it up a bit, dirt settles in underneath the post, then the post cant fall back down to its original level because it has new dirt under it...
then more frost heave raises it higher again..eventually something that was buried a foot in the ground can literally pop right out and lay flat on the ground! half an inch at a time over the course of one winter..

So the key is *on* but not *in* the ground..for areas with strong frost heave potential.
im going to do plain old "track in a trench of gravel"..no road bed at all.


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

wigginsn said:


> Gidday Wombat,
> 
> I used 3/4" PVC pipe to set the grade and curves on my layout - not my idea, borrowed from here and some books.
> 
> ...


Neil, your layout is looking great and I have no doubt that the PVC pipe works, but as others have mentioned - in my area where frost heave is going to be a consideration, I need to keep the track work on a floating arrangement. 

The idea of using PVC to exact the curves and grades is a good idea though and I could have used it a week ago 

So many people are saying to get a Track Bender which, implies using Flex Track. As I am in the early stages of my G Gauge I am going to stick with sectional track for the time being. My main reason for that is because it is easier to make changes, if they need to be made. I am basing that theory on my HO experience and trying to make changes with Flex Track there.

Undoubtedly though, I will transform some of my track (especially the curves) to Flex so it will be then when I get the Bender.



East Broad Top said:


> Word of caution on the PVC pipe Neil shows, as that's similar/identical to what I used. I found that on my railroad, with expansion and contraction, the pipe has a tendency to "roll" up over the gravel as the forces push and pull from side to side, creating something of a scalloped profile as it rises up between the support posts.
> 
> I've now got my pipe anchored every 2 - 3' now to rebar stakes, which seems to mitigate this problem, and then my track is attached to this pipe only ever 5' or so, so the movement of the pipe doesn't have as dramatic effect on the track as it did when I first installed it where the track was attached to the pipe every 2 - 3'.
> 
> ...


K,

I am inclined to go with what Scotty has said - and keep everything "on the soil" rather than in it. I really want to see what happens this winter and exactly what (if any) effect the frost heave has on my track work. If that effect is minimal to none, then I most likely will "fix" my track work every X amount of feet. Right now, my track will be 100% floating though. 



Scottychaos said:


> Im also in Western NY, and im not going to put anything *in* the soil..only *on* the soil.
> The live steam guys around here often make raised tracks, like this:
> 
> 
> ...


Scot,

I guess this a "see above" scenario


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

denray said:


> Do not over look the concrete road bed method, a little more work up front, but when you are done you are done.
> In above Cliff has done it, I know several that has done it,
> Look up JJ links on this site, way back in archives he shows how to do it,
> Then you can bring dirt up to it.
> ...


Dennis,

I have to ask one main question here - if I were to use concrete for the road bed, aren't I leaving myself open to possible problems with frost heave?

If we do get frost heave, isn't that likely to "raise" the road bed and; therefore, distort or bend the track work?

I'm sorry for questioning this, but it seems to me (even though I am a complete novice) that having a solid horizontal road bed wouldn't work in a frost heave area, unless, everything raised and lowered uniformly. Am I understanding this correctly?


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

http://forums.mylargescale.com/17-gardening-landscaping/35106-new-mountain-38.html

Cliff shows how he has used concrete roadbed
When using a single 3/8" bar of rebar to prevent seperation in the event of a crack, and at a joint.
simple to form up and smooth off and level. 
Prevents moles, wash outs, weeds, from being an issue, You can step on the track when concrete is under it.
The heaves do not effect, because as the ground moves up, it moves down. With concrete it moves up and down too. 
If you ballast your track, concrete is the best to keep it stable.
I have temps from -10 - +100 degrees, 50 plus inches of rain per yr. so I have a wide difference in the weathers. JJ and Marty and others has posted several post in the past about the technique of how to do it.
Maybe someone else that is familiar with post made years ago can help you locate them.
Hope this helps
Dennis


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Frost heaves are not uniform. Some areas over a short distance can rise and fall differently. 

Many years ago, when I lived in New Hampshire, during late winter and early spring there were some roads that were more like a roller coaster, than a highway.

Chuck


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Chuck is so right in the above statement, that is another reason a reinforced concrete will stay so much more
true than a floating roadbed. different soil holds moisture differently and different compaction will change how
soil will heave differently in a very near distance.
Dennis


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Chuck and Dennis,

So, you are both saying that despite the potential for frost heave - a concrete road bed will still be the best way to go BUT float the track on top of that roadbed. 

Has it clicked with me now?


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Wombat, 

Yeah I was only suggesting using the pipe to set the grade - sorry I was a week late..  I'd certainly pull it out after forming the grade if it wasn't needed or caused a problem. 

I found that after a few weeks in the sun the pipe forms permanent bends which makes it unusable in other places - esp if I needed it to be straight so I left it in place.

I'm seriously considering concrete roadbed for my next layout..

Kevin,

I was discussing this with Terl a few years ago. I had no problems with any movement like you've had, but I definitely don't have your weather extremes. (1 snow day a year mostly gone by lunchtime, frost depth of 1/2" on a bad week). 

I started with rebar every 5' in the beginning but eventually just used wooden stakes to set the pipe up wherever they were needed to hold the line. Never saw the pipe pop up even though the stakes would have rotted out in a year or two.

Beginners luck?

Cheers
Neil


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Neil, thanks and understood that to be the case.

After giving everything a lot of consideration, I settled on the following method:





Essentially, I created the grade (2%) using luon as the sides and placing 4" wide pieces of pine every 6" to act as the track support. This will be filled with dirt/gravel and possibly with an inch or so of cement along the bottom. The inside of this structure will be back filled to create a mountain/hill and that will run down to the edge of the layout area.

I fully expect the timber to rot away in time leaving only the concrete/dirt and gravel sub roadbed and road bed. More importantly, I now have a smooth running track and proper gradient.

This may not be perfect, but I think it will work and provide the base needed for the grade as well a solidity for a base.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Will you have enough clearance to "tunnel" the lower rails and have a solid support? I used PVC and Trex on my layout but no concern about frost heave here. Looks good


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

fyrekop,

Yep, need 7" and I will have close to 8 1/2" of clearance. I am now wondering what to make the tunnel out of. Initially (as in the picture) it was going to be luon covered fiber glass, but now I dubt that will happen so I am considering concrete - I am almost in two minds about that as well.

What I would love to find is an 8' length of 8" X 8" PVC channel (or similar) and use that for the tunnel .


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

There are several threads that deal with that and CliffyJ made a really nice one and denray has posted a couple of videos too


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Fyrekop,

Have looked at both or all of those gentleman's posts and have now built the tunnel out of, narrow 16" X 8" X 4" , cinder type blocks. Now for the tunnel roof????


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

You might want to go higher on the tunnels. I had 8 1/2" above the rail head and have had to raise it to 10" because people keep showing up with bigger trains. (1:19 and 7/8" stuff gets quite tall!) I also have a couple of K27's which barely cleared after removing the spark arrester. Also, don't plan on making a tunnel any longer than 4 feet without access ports. You need to be able to clean inside and retrieve disabled trains.


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

placitasssteam,

Thanks for the advice, especially the 4' rule re access ... I will have to look at how I am going to do that.

AI fully understand that different G Gauge scales bring different dimensions; however I will be staying with 1:29 and 1:24 scale - no larger. My Piko is 1:24th (I believe) and she clears the tunnel with about an inch to spare as does my USAT diesel. Of course, I wont e able to run two high intermodal, but that is okay with me.

As for "others bringing their engines to the track" - that is not very likely I wouldn't think. I live in the boon docks and am probably the only one with an "active" G Gauge for miles around. I honestly can't see anyone from Rochester (for example) driving all the way to little old Canisteo to run their engines around what amounts to an oval - BUT, you never know


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