# Steaming up an alcohol fired Aster Mikado



## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Everyone,
I made this little video this afternoon primarily to show someone that this loco is easy to fire and that it works just fine.
I thought that perhaps the other 'alcohol' burners might get a laugh out of it, or tell me what I do wrong.
For you 'gas' people, perhaps it will show you how much nicer this method of firing is!!!
(I wonder if that will get any responses?)
Anyway, here it is. 
I wonder how I can get nominated for an Oscar?
All the best,David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

David, your video was both informative and a pleasure to watch. Where is the snow?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

It's up on the mountains where is belongs.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Ah, that is where I belong mate. Or at least where I wish I were.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Well done David, very comprehensive. But if you want that Oscar, we need to see that charming smile of yours! 

Rob Meadows


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## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

David if you want an Oscar, you need Drama ,Excitement,Action,Humour.....a flame flashup, running around like the Keystone Cops looking for a fire extinguisher and tears for burnt ties would probably do the trick. However, as it stands for now it gets an award in my books for a great model engine firing up video. 
Keep up the good videos and thanks, 
Peter.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

David,

Well a couple of reasons why I don't use alcohol, first I can't afford an Astor Locomotive, second my Mason Bogie uses gas so I don't have to drag a blower around to light my locos off. Oh by the way I got a new bolt for the Bogie from Cliff yesterday so I am back in business again.


Andre


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you, Mr Leech, for showing that it can be done without - 

a. Burning down the track. 

b. Burning down the adjacent dwelling. 

c. Burning off your eyebrows. 

d. Burning off the paint. 

e. Burning the top layer of integument off your hands. 

It never ceases to amaze me just how many folks have the impression that alcohol firing is somehow alchemical and mysterious in inexplicable ways. To me it's always a great pleasure to bring an inanimate lump of tin into life, and to see it move under its own steam, so to speak.

In fact, I'm going to go do it right now.

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Andre Anderson on 09 May 2011 12:54 AM 
David,

Well a couple of reasons why I don't use alcohol, first I can't afford an Astor Locomotive, second my Mason Bogie uses gas so I don't have to drag a blower around to light my locos off. Oh by the way I got a new bolt for the Bogie from Cliff yesterday so I am back in business again.


Andre 


Andre, Sir, if you can afford a new MB then you can afford a carefully-used and cared for Aster loco too. When we lived in Berlin I used to go down to Schmidtchen's model store and press my nose up agin the window looking at their Aster display.

It took a while, but I've now had my one and only Aster loco for around five years or so, and never lose the thrill of firing it up and running it around.

Best

tac
http://www.ovgrs.com/

PS - just t o give you fair warning, but we're arriving pretty late on 20 June - last plane in from O'Hare...


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Ah Andre, but does your Mason Bogie suffer from blocked jets? Do you carry around with you a pack of Gas relief laxatives, specifically designed to bring relief to blocked jets? 
Quite frankly, I'de rather be caught with the blower! 

Rob Meadows


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Andre Anderson on 09 May 2011 12:54 AM 
David,

Well a couple of reasons why I don't use alcohol, first I can't afford an Astor Locomotive, second my Mason Bogie uses gas so I don't have to drag a blower around to light my locos off. Oh by the way I got a new bolt for the Bogie from Cliff yesterday so I am back in business again.


Andre 


Hi Andre,
Glad that you managed to get the 'correct' replacement bolt from Cliff.
What's the betting that you'll find it along the track in September!!!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Nice informative video David! Well scripted and produced. 
I also like to push my locomotives with axle pumps back and forth a little with water in the tender especially if they haven't been steamed in awhile to make sure that the backflow preventer (steel ball) down in the axle pump opens and closes properly. The pumping action at the tender pump is good for verifying that the water from the tender pump is flowing to the boiler and returning when the bypass control is opened.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Professor Leech

Well designed lesson on alcohol firing. Given the video target audience would be those who have never fired via alcohol system might I suggest that a beginner could benefit from the following: What is your source of alcohol? Remembering back to introduction days to the first alcohol fired loco both for myself and others it would be good in the video to have highlighted the controls on the backhead as many are not familiar with throttle vs. blower setup when first firing (that could of been done when the engine was warming up). Also, safety as to possible track fire having water bucket available if the wicks have overflowed. Finally, a word of caution about the vapor and potential for irritation of the eyes, etc.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

How do you cut a run short? What is the proper method of shutting down a Meth fired locomotive? Turn off the valve at the tank, open up the blower, let the remaining alcohol burn off? Or do you give a quick blast from a CO2 bicycle tire inflator into the stack to snuff out the fire?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

We utilize the CO2 technique to extinguish the fire on our meth's fired engines. Speaking of meth's there are several options of which we found racing fuel to be the best flame for the buck $4.00/gal)!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice vid, well done. Oscar nomination? No way. You need to wear a bikini.

CO2 tire inflator is the best way to put out the fire.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

I should clarify the above mention of racing fuel. This is NOT nitro-methane, but pure Methanol (wood grain alcohol), usually 90% alcohol or greater. Most go kart and automotive speed shops can point you to a place to purchase it. 

Methanol burns cooler than ethanol, with a lower BTU output (caloric value), but this is not usually a problem with engines that have an isolated chicken feed (tinplate and small bunker locomotives should avoid it) as the lower boiling point is a non-issue. Wicks may or may not have to be adjusted (looser for methanol, tighter for ethanol) to suit the fuel. 

The major plus with Methanol racing fuel is that it burns extremely clean and is very much impurity free, unlike the denatured fuels that most hardware stores carry. Those often contain a mix of ethanol (primary fuel) and methanol (to make it non-drinkable) plus other additives, which often are not mentioned on the can. 

As mentioned above, it is often much cheaper than hardware store fuel, although some places may have a minimum number of gallons you have to buy before turning on the pump. 


Your mileage may vary, risk of burnt hair, bruised pride, etc, all the standard disclaimers apply here.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

A 25c piece of plastic tubing about 30cm/1 foot long and 12.7mm/1/2" diameter, inserted down the stack suffices where technology has not yet caught up with the likes of [expensive] Co2 tire inflators. 

1. Turn off fuel. 

2. Wait for a minute to make sure they are low or out, and then 

3. Insert tube down stack and 

4. Blow. 

It is a lot more gentle on the poor old wicks than the blast of freezing Co2. 

Mind you, that is only MY opinion, and might well be totally in error, as I will no doubt soon find out. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

David,

Great video. I was just getting annoyed with gas the other day. I have to wait too long for things to cool before filling up again. This was on a Ruby where the tank is in the cab with no bath to keep it cool. I thought that alcohol would be much better in that regard. I do have to agree with Charles. I would like to see the backhead controls and the wick / burner assembly and how it fits into the boiler. Not to mention all that build up and we don't get to see that beautiful locomotive run.







Would I be correct in assuming that and alcohol fired with RC would also have to have a servo to operate the blower?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By GNSteamer on 10 May 2011 10:07 AM 
How do you cut a run short? What is the proper method of shutting down a Meth fired locomotive? Turn off the valve at the tank, open up the blower, let the remaining alcohol burn off? Or do you give a quick blast from a CO2 bicycle tire inflator into the stack to snuff out the fire? 
Hi, 
I am not keen on the 'blast of Co2'.
Similar to Tac, when I am about five minutes from when I want to end my run, I just shut the fuel off and let the fire go out by itself, making sure that I get off the main line before i run out of pressure.
I have never had any problems with wicks doing this.
Now, if you mean in an emergency, then yes, I guess the Co2 is the only way to make sure that it goes out.
If you just suddenly want to stop, but no emergency, yes turn of the fuel, open the blower and just keep checking that there is still water in the boiler. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 10 May 2011 05:10 AM 
Professor Leech

Well designed lesson on alcohol firing. Given the video target audience would be those who have never fired via alcohol system might I suggest that a beginner could benefit from the following: What is your source of alcohol? Remembering back to introduction days to the first alcohol fired loco both for myself and others it would be good in the video to have highlighted the controls on the backhead as many are not familiar with throttle vs. blower setup when first firing (that could of been done when the engine was warming up). Also, safety as to possible track fire having water bucket available if the wicks have overflowed. Finally, a word of caution about the vapor and potential for irritation of the eyes, etc. 


Thanks Charles,
As you know, we in Canada are spoiled with Methyl Hydrate which is readily available from Home Depot type stores.
Vapor, and potential irritation to the eyes - well not if the wicks are burning properly. 
I think that it is unburned fuel that causes the problem so the wick condition is important.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 10 May 2011 12:57 PM 
A 25c piece of plastic tubing about 30cm/1 foot long and 12.7mm/1/2" diameter, inserted down the stack suffices where technology has not yet caught up with the likes of [expensive] Co2 tire inflators. 

1. Turn off fuel. 

2. Wait for a minute to make sure they are low or out, and then 

3. Insert tube down stack and 

4. Blow. 

It is a lot more gentle on the poor old wicks than the blast of freezing Co2. 

Mind you, that is only MY opinion, and might well be totally in error, as I will no doubt soon find out. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
My Brother has put out his fires like this 'forever'.
Just remember to take a deep breath BEFORE a quick blow down the stack.
DO NOT TAKE A BREATH (SUCK) WHEN THE TUBE IS ON THE STACK!!!!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

1. Refueling with alcohol is a bit safer if you put the fire out before you start pouring a flammable liquid, but if you are CAREFUL and use a syringe to transfer the alcohol to the holding tank it can be done without a conflagration!

2. You don't want to keep the butane tank "Cool"... the water bath keeps the tank "warmer" as it gets COLD when as the butane escapes from the tank via the pipe to the burner. The water bath is to moderate the temperature so the pressure remains higher.

3. The wick/burner assembly is usually under the boiler (like a pot boiler) and is not easily removed for inspection and playing with it. You have to turn the engine upsidedown and remove some screws and brackets to get it out. Puttng the wicks in the burner cups per the instructions (count and length) is usually the best and you don't have to mess with them much after that.... the only messing I have done to try to improbe the burners, proved to be useless and I have gone back to the original setup and they work just fine!

4. R/C is really nice to have on a Live Steamer and control of the blower is handy if you decide to stop the engine when you and it are not within an arms reach and you need to open the blower a bit to maintain the fire (and keep it going the right direction and not out the bottom of the firebox). I have 3 channel R/C on my Aster Mikes and it works quite well. Fun to just be sitting trackside and be able to start, stop, change directions and control the throttle, reverser and blower without getting up and walking around... you DO need to periodically take a look at the site glass and tender water level to preclude running out of water out on the mainline in the back forty, in a rose bush thicket, or in a tunnel!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 10 May 2011 02:22 PM 
Posted By tacfoley on 10 May 2011 12:57 PM 
A 25c piece of plastic tubing about 30cm/1 foot long and 12.7mm/1/2" diameter, inserted down the stack suffices where technology has not yet caught up with the likes of [expensive] Co2 tire inflators. 

1. Turn off fuel. 

2. Wait for a minute to make sure they are low or out, and then 

3. Insert tube down stack and 

4. Blow. 

It is a lot more gentle on the poor old wicks than the blast of freezing Co2. 

Mind you, that is only MY opinion, and might well be totally in error, as I will no doubt soon find out. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
My Brother has put out his fires like this 'forever'.
Just remember to take a deep breath BEFORE a quick blow down the stack.
DO NOT TAKE A BREATH (SUCK) WHEN THE TUBE IS ON THE STACK!!!!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

I don't even use the "tube"... Just cup my hand near/around the stack and give a quick hard puff in the general direction of the stack. But then, I seldom want to put the fire out... I run until the steam quits and then I add more fuel and re-light the fire, check the steam oil and water level while steam builds again and run some more, or just wait for the boiler to cool to the touch (renew the steam oil level while waiting) and then take it all back in the house.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 10 May 2011 02:01 PM 
David,

Great video. I was just getting annoyed with gas the other day. I have to wait too long for things to cool before filling up again. This was on a Ruby where the tank is in the cab with no bath to keep it cool. I thought that alcohol would be much better in that regard. I do have to agree with Charles. I would like to see the backhead controls and the wick / burner assembly and how it fits into the boiler. Not to mention all that build up and we don't get to see that beautiful locomotive run.







Would I be correct in assuming that and alcohol fired with RC would also have to have a servo to operate the blower?


Thanks Randy,
You always need to turn the blower on when the loco is in steam and stationary.
You could do this manually and just have a servo for the throttle, or have a separate servo, or I have seen one servo do both (close the blower as the throttle is opened, and likewise open the blower as the throttle is closed).
It would need some springs and levers, but is possible. 
I assume that you mean that I should have included this IN the video, anyway here are some photos that may help you if you don't know what they look like. 
The burner sits under the firebox and is bolted in, so not easy to show you.
Here is the one out of my Accucraft Royal Hudson.


















and this is the backhead on the Aster Mikado


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Semper and David,

Thanks for the excellent and in depth answers to my greedy questions. I guess my opinions of alcohol fired locos were inspired by seeing one or tow 100 year old types. On these I think the whole burner assembly, one I think even had the fuel tank incorporated, just slid out the back with no bolts to loosen first. I was also wrongly under the impression that you would see the burners and their flames between the boiler and wheels. Boy was I wrong. David your pictures are great and explain quite a bit. I'm going to seriously consider an alcohol fired for my next loco. Thanks for dispelling many of my ill-conceived myths!


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## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

Until I got my alcohol fired Hudson, I ran only gas cans and they were easy and only one had to be blasted clean once for butane burner clogs. I am really enjoying running alcohol engines and they do take a little more practice and thankfully, David has helped me a lot in this regard and big thanks to Dan at Bear Creek RR who is also a good source of help. 
I would say to anyone who wants to venture into this fueling method, not to be worried as it really is not that difficult. I would never try to refuel with the fire still going though. 
Peter.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Is it true that Alcohol fired engines can not do any grades? I understand how the chicken feed works, but surely, an engine could handle a minor grade that burned alcohol without setting fire due to overfilling of cups, right? I would guess until it was lit, keep it level, but once it was lit, what then?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run several alcohol fired engine on grades, up to 3% I have no idea how much of a grade you would need to cause a problem but I think there would be other problems before the alcohol system would become a problem. I cannot see the "chicken feed" system "sloshing over" but I am sure somebody can manage to do it. Remember 1 1/2 % on a railroad is a steep grade, that's why the Big Boy was developed, mostly for Sherman Hill. I am impressed; I have never heard this to be an excuse to stay away from using alcohol for firing.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 11 May 2011 06:17 PM 
Is it true that Alcohol fired engines can not do any grades? I understand how the chicken feed works, but surely, an engine could handle a minor grade that burned alcohol without setting fire due to overfilling of cups, right? I would guess until it was lit, keep it level, but once it was lit, what then? 
Jeremiah,
IF it went up say a 10% grade for five minutes, your fire 'might' go out as the wicks 'may' be starved.
IF it went down the same grade you 'might' get some excess fuel out of the front wick, but I doubt it.
The fuel is normally right down the bottom of the burner tubes, and it is the action of the wicks that draws the fuel up.
They will only draw up so much, and then that's it. 
IF you forget to put the cap on the fuel tank, or tight enough, then you in effect have a fuel level that is higher than the tops of the burner tubes, and you will get spillage. 
An alcohol loco will give no problem with grades in normal use.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By deltatrains on 11 May 2011 06:08 PM 
I would never try to refuel with the fire still going though. 
Peter. 
I do this often on my older locos that have 'normal' sized fuel tanks, not like the Royal Hudson, which is enormous!
Just remember to turn off the fuel valve, then open the filler plug, use a bottle that will put the alcohol into the tank without sloshing everywhere, close the filler plug, and then open the fuel valve. 
No problem at all.
Much safer than adding gas when there are other alcohol runners around.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, Thanks for the explanation. I was considering driving it up a mountain like on "Polar Express".


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The only problem I have had with "grades" was one time when I took my Mike to a meet with the "big boys" (7.25/7.5 inch gauge stuff). I had a treadmill I had made so I could fire it up and run it a bit to show off my new toy.

The only surface available to put the treadmill on and fire up was a door laying across a pair of sawhorses. I fueled up and lit the fire, but after 20 minutes I still could not get more than about 10 lbs of pressure on the gauge. Terribly embarassing. I even scared a few of the other engineers when I tried a "field repair" by taking it apart to see if I could find a reason for the problem. (Several of the club members called me a "Watchmaker" for having such a tiny locomotive! And many said they would never try such a "field repair" even with their bigger locos.)

I could find nothing wrong so I finally gave up and went to watch the big ones run for a while.

I kept looking back at my engine on that makeshift table to make sure no one obsconded with it. At one point I realized the door/table was anything but level! I went back, turned the engine end for end and tried it again. Within 5 minutes I had 45 lbs on the gauge, but by then I knew I was nearly out of fuel! I turned off the fuel valve (which just closes the flow of alcohol from the the tank to the sump, but does not kill the fire if any alcohol is left in the sump, the feeder tube and the wick cups. I then filled my fueling syringe and refilled the tank, replaced the cap and opened the valve. By then the pressure had dropped to about 25 lbs, but immediately after opening the valve the pressure again went up to the point where the safeties started popping off (something I very rarely experience as I usually start moving as soon as the pressure will let me).

I now have a bulls-eye bubble level on the treadmill base and I make sure it is centered before I open the fuel valve. If I am in a hurry to get steam up, I will slip a folded up paper wedge under the back end of the treadmill to give the bubble a one or two diameter shift off-center. I have no idea how far off of level I could go before I spill alcohol out the front burner cup, but I am not tempted to try it.

I have not had a problem with trraversing low grades for short periods of time. The alcohol fire is very slow to respond to changes in alcohol flow. There is enough in the sump, feeder tube and cups that a short period of time going up a hill is usually not sufficient to loose much steam and going down hill any spillage out the front is probably burnt completely before it gets very far down the side of the cup (heading for the ground). I have no idea how much spillage would be too much to burn off before it reaches the ground.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Charles, 
I like that idea of a level on your treadmill. I have one built already and will run it a few times on this to learn the quirks of the controls so that idea is just dandy. Thanks. I ordered some loctite 222 today. I could only find the 242 kind at my local hardware shops.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, all I could find was 242 but I was too excited to wait on a mail order of the weaker stuff... so...

I made some guesses as to which bolts I might want to remove in the future and which ones I figured I probably would not, and varied the application of the locker liquid based on that. For most of the threads I would put a drop on the threads and then touch the drop with the edge of a tissue to draw off most of it, this woiuld leave just a hint of blue color in the root of the threads. Some I would install the bolt and then immediately remove it, wipe off any liquid on the threads and then put the bolt or nut back on the part and tighen it down.

I have since removed some of the bolts/nuts, both those that I put a lot (relatively) of locker on and those that I wicked most of it off and almost all have been somewhat difficult to remove. I understand that the application of heat will make the removal easier but I have not tried that, nor have I broken any bolts yet. Gentle constant pressure seems to loosen the bolts without twisting the heads off. (But I do break out in a sweat a bit before it comes loose!)


Running on a treadmill is fun, but the wheels do not have much mass and so inertia does not cause it to speed up or slow down quite the same as when the whole engine is in motion or has a train to pull.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a strange question that I have wondered about. Does an engine work harder on a treadmill then when running on level track ? I am not saying that running on a treadmill is in any way is harmful to a engine. What do you all think ?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 12 May 2011 08:04 AM 
Here is a strange question that I have wondered about. Does an engine work harder on a treadmill then when running on level track ? I am not saying that running on a treadmill is in any way is harmful to a engine. What do you all think ? 
Steve, unless you have a loadable 'treadmill' [never heard it called that before, I've always referred to it as a rolling road test track or simply rollers] then the loco is simply turning its wheels without a load to slow it down. It isn't even having to haul itself around - unless it's a tank loco, then a goodly proportion of the weight of the loco is carried on the front and rear trucks - that's one of the reasons that they are there. The tender, often on a section of track at the same level as the loco on more rollers or a track extension, is no load at all.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 12 May 2011 08:04 AM 
Here is a strange question that I have wondered about. Does an engine work harder on a treadmill than when running on level track ? I am not saying that running on a treadmill is in any way is harmful to an engine. What do you all think ? 

It could be harmful to an engine. Because most treadmills offer no resistance to the engine's rotation it could "over-speed" or "run wild" and that might result in the side rods or the main rod breaking a drive pin on the wheels. Our miniature engines are probably too light for this to happen (not enough inertia in the light parts to stress the metal to the breaking point), but on the 1:1 real engines it was a feared possibility that could happen if the wheels slipped on slippery track (wet rail, leaves, pine needles, etc.).

Stationary steam engines (like a pump or generator) have a "Fly-ball governor", which controls the speed... The faster the balls spin around a shaft the more they pull outward due to centrifugal force and that action closes the throttle a small amount which slows the engine which slows the speed of the balls which lets gravity pull the throttle closed a small amount. If the drive mechanism (usually a belt) broke then the balls would drop and open the throttle all the way and that would result in an over-speed situation and result in damage to the engine... Jerk the piston rod out of the piston, blow a cylinder head off, break a drive pin or cause the flywheel to fly apart! Some had a secondary "Fail-Safe" Mode that would detect the belt breaking or the balls dropping all the way and that would cut off steam.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Its just that I have noticed that when an engine runs on rollers they seem to rock back and forth more then when on track. No big deal..........................they just sometimes seem to appear to be working against the rollers rather then with them at times. Just my "Unscientific" observation.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

We use rollers a lot for evaluating problems with engines, such as this Aster Stirling in for several problems, most fixed at this point but had yet to address the leaking axle pump:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5414788962/in/set-72157625737840107

Here a tuned Aster Reno running on rollers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5419648227/in/set-72157625737840107

Up to the larger engine such as CF and GS4. Here GS4 running through the paces smoothly on rollers:

http://youtu.be/KGWLcdc3q6w


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