# critics needed for layout-plan



## Guest (Feb 8, 2008)

what better to celebrate the new forum start-over, than with a new layout?

the builders will start in march to make my new hobbyroom. so it is high time, to move from "could-be" and "should-be" to concrete plans.
but i know, that i tend easyly to overlook things. so i would ask all, to show me the flaws of my plans.

below i post my latest plan.
it consists of two folded circles, that are overlapping. on each circle trains shall run in both directions.
as a plus i will add a rural line using Fallertrain-rails.
generally it will be a 1:29 (because i got lots of acessoirs in that scale) western(?) or southern(?) early times set up. (with enough #8 thrown in, to have cotton, sugar cane, logging and mining integrated)

i think about three levels. the lower (2' high) as shadow-area to store future-excess-trains, the main layout at 3'height with a harbour and the upper level at 5' height.
the up and down connections shall be hidden behind the background with 2/5" grades (in the R1 curves) to 1/2" grades (in the straights).
later on i will try to realize my ideas about automatic loading and unloading.

the system is analog. the trains will steer each other using reed-contacts after the LGB-EPL fashion.

so, pluck it up!
show me, where the mistakes in planning are.

korm
.
*plan of indoor layout for Southern and Gulf RailRoad*
_Image exceeds 640 pixel max. width - converted to link. Mod.

_Edit: sorry. korm 
here it is in smaller:


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

You seemed to have spent a LOT of time on this.  It's your layout, only YOU need to be happy, but since you asked, I did have a few thoughts. 

The first was that with 2 feet between levels (allowing about 4" for benchwork, etc.) will you be a bit crowded if you decide to have any taller scenery items such as trees, windmills or 3 story buildings?...also getting the "5 finger hook" to the backside of the return loops to rerail something might be a bit problematic. I saw access panels, but can you use them without squashing something on the other layer?

My second was to be reminded of the old "spaghetti bowl" Lionel layouts. Lots of track, very little scenery...Some like them, real railroads justifed every foot of track. Sidings and yards were built for a specific purpose (why build 2 sidings if a single team track will do?). Nothing wrong with either approach. I don't know your personal philosphy, so I can't make that call for you. Personally, I like a bit less track, then doing all the little bits and bobs that bring a scene to life. note: those R-1 curves will limit how big of stuff you can run, and how good it will look doing it.

Third thought was, 2 loops set up for automatic running...sweet!, up to a point... BUT will you get bored after a bit? Some guys do. Having a point to point section where you can switch and do operations might help keep you fresh. OTOH I have heard of guys just place a brick across the loop to simulate a point to point when they want to do something different.

But what do I know? All I have is a 5' x 8' loop in a 2nd floor apt. YMMV (your mileage may vary) Like I said before, only YOU need to be happy with it.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2008)

_The first was that with 2 feet between levels_ 

eh.... oh, oh.... you are right. i forgot to calculate benchwork's height. maybe, if i put the two lower levels down half a foot or so? i would hate to lift the upper level higher. (with 5' or 1.50 meter it is just eye level for most people)


_ I saw access panels, but can you use them without squashing something on the other layer?
_
i am not sure. i will have to find out, when the rails are laid provisionally.

_My second was to be reminded of the old "spaghetti bowl" Lionel layouts. Lots of track, very little scenery...
_
i agree with you on that. save in the stations i will try to have no more rail than one visible from any given observingpoint.
(i am not good enough at plandrawing, to show clearly, which rails will be hidden behind the background


_(why build 2 sidings if a single team track will do?)._ 

i don't know the meaning of "team track". 
the two rails in stations are for the incoming trains from oposite directions. where there is a third track, it is for one direction to let the incoming train pause for one turn, while a waiting train goes on instead. (so not allways the same two trains meet at the same stations.)
in the middle, where the loops overlap, i planned four rails per station, because there will meet four trains.


_ those R-1 curves will limit how big of stuff you can run, and how good it will look doing it._

yes.
but i see no problem there. my longest wagon is a boxcar, that came in a bachmann starter set (1' 4") all the others are 1' or shorter.
at the moment i can not imagine, to get interested in longer/more modern stuff.
i can't afford a bigger hobby room right now, and i am not willing to go outdoors with my layout. it is simply to hot here. seldom, that the temperature goes below +30° centigrade before midnight.

_Third thought was, 2 loops set up for automatic running...sweet!, up to a point... BUT will you get bored after a bit? Some guys do._ 

i am one of those blockheads, who like to see many trains running, but don't like the stress, to steer them.
if i am looking for a thrill, i allways can slip in between with a radio-controled inspection train and take time, how long i can evade a crash...
my last layout, i put up the benches, rails and the electricity in a couple of weeks, then to take years to toy around with scenery and buildings, while the trains ran around me.
(i never finished the layout, before we moved.)


_Having a point to point section where you can switch and do operations might help keep you fresh. 
_
that sounds like a job for selfmade locos with remote-control to me.


thank you, your comments set me off thinking along some new lines.

korm
.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Its mostly dependant on what you intend to run. Also if you chose to  use wider radius curves like 5 ft ot 6.5 ft so you can run large engines and cars, remember that all your switchs MUST match those engines min requirments. 

Did you include the depth of the supporting framework in your level height calculations? Thats at about 6 inches for benchwork framing assumin 1x4 framing members.

I assume the red track plan is the lowest level, why not place that level on the ground and use it only as a storage or staging yard? A place where whole trains are kept until needed. Then come up with 2 feet clear between that deck and the underside of level 2 benchwork (2'6" total floor to deck) up to level 2, then again up 2'6" deck to deck to level 3 at 5'-0" above the floor.

Are there going to be lights under each deck to light the lower level? Your going to have some big shade areas on 1 and 2


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I really like the looks of your 3-tiered layout. One item, everything you have now will run on R1 curves, but do you want to limit your future operations? Something to think about. I'm looking forward to your progress, I believe it will be an awesome layout!


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Expanding a previous point, your main level and hidden level are 1 foot apart, in reality more like eight inches apart including framing. If you need to retrieve, repair, put back on the track, etc. anything on that hidden level that isn't right on the front edge, you will have a problem. Imagine reaching back in about four feet and bringing out a recalcitrant engine that is stopped in the back corner.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2008)

_remember that all your switchs MUST match those engines min requirments._ 

save two, all my turnouts are R1.


_everything you have now will run on R1 curves, but do you want to limit your future operations?_

yes, i want to. i got dozens of horsecarts, hundreds of civil war toy soldiers and cowboys, no hobbyshop nearer than Miami, Florida...
so i have to scratchbuild my future stock from toy parts. (freight for a small wagon from the US till here would be about $50 alone. plus the worth of the wagon) and i got a whole box of coffee stirrer sticks, waiting to be converted to falsefront-buildings, western style.
yes, i am quite sure, i will not have long rolling stock.


_Did you include the depth of the supporting framework in your level height calculations?
_
i did not. first time i noticed that, was after Mik's answer.


_the red track plan is the lowest level, why not place that level on the ground and use it only as a storage or staging yard?_

storage yard for additional trains is the lowest/red level's main purpose. plus completing a loop for the mine-trains and the lumber -trains.
putting it on the floor is no option. by experience i know, that i need easy access for cleaning the floor below the layout. but i could lower the level about 6 to 8 inches.
that level will be hidden behind a curtain.


_your main level and hidden level are 1 foot apart, in reality more like eight inches apart including framing. If you need to retrieve, repair, put back on the track, etc. anything on that hidden level that isn't right on the front edge, you will have a problem._

a small one. the bigger problem will be the up and down going rails, hidden behind the background. (i have other plans with a small access-space along all the walls. but then i loose the space for the harbour in the middle...)


_Then come up with 2 feet clear between that deck and the underside of level 2 benchwork (2'6" total floor to deck) up to level 2, then again up 2'6" deck to deck to level 3 at 5'-0" above the floor._

i fear to make my grades too steep. the steepest, i had built up till now was 9/16" to th foot. and that was hard on the engines. the best ones, the two stainzes, made that with 10 aixles drawn. the bachmann, the playmobils and the scratchbuilts did even less.
so i thought, not to go steeper than 1/2" per foot on straights, and not more than 3/8" on curves.
that means, without the forgotten height of the frame, i allready need the black part of the curves on the left, plus the whole length of the walls plus till the middle of the window at the right, to gain the two feet difference.
using the whole length of the short wall for the grade as well, i might win additional 3 inches for the frame.


_Are there going to be lights under each deck to light the lower level?_

for the lowest level i will put some lamps, as necessary. below the upper level i will put tubes behind the frontblending. the upper level will be lighted from farther above, that the observers don't look into any light.

thank you all, for your input.

korm

ps: below the plan, i made before. with access from behind.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... 

In your first set of plans, it looks like you have a section where the edge of the topmost level (the cotton gin) sticks way out over the edge of the level below (the mill). That could present both operational (bumping the old noggin) and scenic problems for the middle level. 

The center peninsula concept is good; it is actually what I would have gone with had I that kind of space. (Alas, my train room was about two feet too narrow). As far as going back and forth between levels...how about using a helix, with R2 or even R3 curves on the center peninsula? That would be visually impressive, and you have enough space on the center peninsula to keep the grade down to maybe 2 or 2.5 percent. 

As far as the rest goes...the idea of a lower storage level is fine - but keep the tracks to the front, where you can reach them. 

Outside of the center peninsula, which would have to be about eight foot wide (something I learned the hard way on my own indoor layout), most of it should be on fairly narrow shelves, no more than three feet deep - past that you get into 'reach' issues. 

The upper level, to avoid the 'overhang' effect should be narrower...maybe only a foot or foot and a half deep. 

You should be able to get away with a couple of 'endpieces' at the end of the walls that would be wide enough to accomodate the return loops that would 'dovetail' in with the center peninsula but still allow room enough to 'reach' most of it.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2008)

...the center peninsula, which would have to be about eight foot wide (something I learned the hard way on my own indoor layout), 

even my layout at the remote ranch had enough visitors. so i am determined to make the visitor's accesses at least three foot wide. (to not having them assbrushing the layout)

center-peninsula of 8' plus two accesses 3' each, would leave me with one foot wide shelves along the walls....

could you explain further, why you are thinking, the center has to be that wide?

thanks, korm
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

could you explain further, why you are thinking, the center has to be that wide? 



Hmmm... 

for a R1 circle, with proper minimum clearances, you'd be looking at a minimum width of just over 4.5 feet - actually, five feet if you could manage itl. 

for a R2 circle, with the proper minimum clearances, you'd be looking at a minimum width of just over six feet, and if you can manage it, you'd want 6.5 feet. 

If you were to try 'stretching' the width of that R2 circle by dropping a 12 inch piece of straight track, even if it is 'angled' in relation to the peninsula's width, what you need for minimum clearances becomes seven feet (this is the situation I'm in.) Otherwise, your looking at 7.5 to 8 feet - at least for that part of the peninsula. 

I think the clearances for an unmodified R3 curve come out to about seven feet, but I'm not sure. 

'Clearances' gets into the overhang of the loco's on the curves. 

Both Vic (VSmith) and myself have done a bit of experimentation with grades on curves. The tighter the curve, the more your engines will strain themselves getting up it, and the less they can pull. Hence, if at all possible, you *really* want your grades on a curve to be as wide as you can manage - which would mean R2 and R3 if possible. 

Because this would be a climbing helix or spiral, your upper, or inner loop would have to have a tighter radi than the one below it - and you still need to maintain proper clearances. Play around with it enough, maybe drop in just a couple of R1 curves at the very top...you might be able to get the width of the peninsula down to about seven feet (I managed this, but it involved `stacking the track' at one point). Visually, though, it would be impressive. 

I'd use a bridge to cross from the top of the helix to the upper level. 

I would also point out that only the part of the peninsula with the helix/spiral on it need be the full width.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2008)

thank you.
i think, i understand now.

i tried to make some calculations about a helix.

as base i take my experience, that i need at least a width of 6" to have the needed clearance on both sides for one foot long wagons.
my highest loco needs a clearance of 9 1/2" (counting from the base of the sleepers) plus, at least one inch for woodwork.

if i am not misstaken, at a grade of 3/8 per foot, that means i need at least 28 foot of rails to raise the height the trains have.
28 foot that is at R1 two full circles plus four straight one foot pieces.
conclusion, i can not put the circles one below the other, like in H0.

2' 2" elevation to the next level at a 3/8 per foot grade calls for 70 one foot long rails.

i played a little bit with my trackplanner...

and after doing that, it definitely reminded me too much of the big mountains, i had on my last layout:


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... 

...I think you had an extra loop there in your drawing. The grade for the top one would work out to 4% or about 1/2 inch per foot. 

As it is, if you were to start the ascent at point 'B' with a steady 3% grade (about what your aiming for), at the end of the first loop, you'd have gained 10.5 inches of elevation over about 29 feet. The next loop in at the same grade would climb 9 inches in 25 feet...which gets you into problems. You could get out of this by either increeasing the grade to 3.5% (not unless you have to) orextending the length of the 'climb' section from ten feet to about twelve feet (which would almost let you gain the whole 2'2" in just two loops - actually, if you began climbing before point B - say at the base of the peninsula, you could do this). I'd also really recommend R2 curves instead of R1 if possible. 

I like the pic, by the way. Were you unhappy with that particular layout?


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2008)

ThinkerT,

you raised my curiosity.
i think, when the room is done, first i will make a test setup of a helix.
i am in no hurry. the last layout did not get finished from 1985 to 2004. and i don't see, why to speed up more than double for the next one.


_Were you unhappy with that particular layout?_

at first yes.
everybody, who entered the room was confronted with this sight:



















and the rest of the layout paled out. - looked insignificant.
after some mayor civil engineering (putting a steelframe and weels under three unconnected tables of 5 1/2' x 7' each) i moved the mountain to be at the far side of the room.
then it was better. sacrificing the best view, the mountain fitted better in the overall picture.




























only turning a bit to the left, gets one access to the former main view.



















this one is from the background.
(before digital cameras i was too dumb, to make usable fotos. so all fotos are from the time, when the layout was abandoned allready.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad to be of some help. 

I like the photo's of the old layout - that old mountain certainly was vertical!


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Good looking work. Why not pull that passing siding on the lowest level out to the front edge? This is a great thread, it takes courage to share your thinking with everyone (specialy because it is so easy to critique someone else's ideas) Keep it coming!


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2008)

CCSII,

in modification of an old saying about talking:

*how should i know, what i am thinking, before i read, what i am typing?

*by formulating my thoughts, i precice them. and by getting critics and thoughts from others i can modify them.
my win.

korm
.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

well, the comments i got, send me thinking.
as did the fact, that i have not enough switches for the former plan...

as i still don't really trust the helix idea, i made another plan, how to build, if a helix would be no option.

all those alaskan mountain and mining fotos got under my skin. so a mountain must be. a big mountain. a three foot mountain.
it will be on the mainlevel, with a 32mm gauge (O Gauge?) mining line at about 10" of height. (pink). above that will be the storage to fill the train.
high up the coal will be brougt out of the mountain by a conveyorbelt, falling in a mill and from there in the storage.
the mining train will run on trestles to the loading facility.
in the foot of the mountain will be hidden the loop of the downgoing 45mm Lost Gulf Branch line. (red)

next to the loading facility for the LGBRR will be another mountain(not so big), hiding the loop for the upward connection of the Southern & Gulf RR.
high on that mountain will be the mouth of another mine, where a guy with a handpushed cart (HO Gauge) spills ore on a slide.

next will be a logging area, then a working sawmill.

at the harbor the LGBRR will unload the hoppers in a boat.

from there the two lines will run on the same track (so i may bring trains from the storage area to both lines), before the red line goes back down inside of another mountain.
the Southern & Gulf goes on to a city, where cattle will be unloaded on a siding. from there in a loop below another mountain up to the higher level.

on the upper level will be two towns. one to serve a ranching area, and one that has a cotton mill. the latter has one extra siding, to alternate trins in one of the directions.
from there another small  Gauge line (32mm) will serve a cotton plantation district. (pink) - (may be a 'rule 8' sugarcane district too)

for this plan i have nearly everything.

i just have to make a second hopper (copying the one i allready made - easy)
the one switch still missing, i am trying to build myself (had to stop for the moment, i have no resin, to make the frog)
fabrikating some more epl type impulsors for switches is no problem.
most animations planned are similar to things i made before.
for buildings i will first put the toys i got, and replace them over the years with custom made houses.
most challenging will be the three more needed locos for the 32mm Gauge lines. (but i got lots of motors and gears from toys lying around)

the dotted lines are for tracks hidden in mountains, or behind scenerie and background.
the orange crosses mark where i plan animated scenes.

here the same pic in bigger for those with 'largescale eyes':  kormsen.ko.funpic.de/bahn/25feb.JPG


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok...looks pretty good. 

Lower (storage) level : If at all possible, I'd really recommend keeping the tracks here - especially the sidings - as close to the 'edge' as you can manage. The 10 inch high ceiling in there will really limiit your 'reach' ability. 

Main level: Looks pretty good. 

I would point out it would cost you nothing to scenic the 'backside' where the climbing and decending tracks are (keep these tracks in the open). It might even be possible to work in a minor 'whistle stop' type station back there somewhere (something to give a bit of thought to, maybe). 

I'd also give a bit of thought to relocating the switch for the descent track; maybe move it back towards the port a bit. Turn the port into the junction as well as a port. Let the first part of the decent track run in parallel with the main line. 

Also, I didn't see any 'standard guage' sidings for the sawmill at the narrow guage intersection. (the narrow guage bit is a nifty idea). 

Upper level: Shelves might be a bit wide, overhanging the lower level too much. If it were just where the downward loops have to be stashed, it wouldn't be too bad, as it is, there is the 'overhang' effect. 

Question: given that all this is freestanding; how do you intend to work the supports between the main and upper levels? 

A thought: maybe 'flip' the narrow guage lines? Put the mining line on the upper level, with attendant businesses (allowing for narrower shelves and the isolated peninsula bit) with the agricultural line on the main level.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

That looks interesting, one question, why is there so much open real estate along the track to the cottonfields area? is this to be all scenery?


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have much to offer in way of a critique, but I do think that your planned railroad looks like a lot of fun!! The old one looked great, too!  

Mark


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## rgolding (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd be concerned about the tightness of the curves. I think this will impact your overall satisfaction. Why not build the wall framework for the lowest and highest levels and begin construction on the trackage on the middle level. Wide radius curves reversing direction in the area of "noname city" and then a return with wide radius in the area of the Cottonmill with point to point to the extreme ends and to the other layers may create a layout that would allow a larger range of equipment currently available and available in the future. Just my thoughts, certainly its your railroad.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2008)

thank you all for your comments.


_Lower (storage) level : If at all possible, I'd really recommend keeping the tracks here - especially the sidings - as close to the 'edge' as you can manage. The 10 inch high ceiling in there will really limiit your 'reach' ability. 

_yyy....esss..... it is a compromise. at the moment i dont have to build a complete lower level. and i keep the option, to build more storage-sidings, if i succeed to build my own switches.

_I would point out it would cost you nothing to scenic the 'backside' where the climbing and decending tracks are (keep these tracks in the open). It might even be possible to work in a minor 'whistle stop' type station back there somewhere (something to give a bit of thought to, maybe)._ 

i will think about it. maybe on one wing. the wing with wayne-city i vision as mainly prairie. but the logging and mining wing might  actually win by an upgoing line.

_I'd also give a bit of thought to relocating the switch for the descent track; maybe move it back towards the port a bit. Turn the port into the junction as well as a port. Let the first part of the decent track run in parallel with the main line. 
_
why?

_Also, I didn't see any 'standard guage' sidings for the sawmill at the narrow guage intersection. (the narrow guage bit is a nifty idea)._ 

a siding for the sawmill is pending of my success or failure at switchbuilding.
i even got a more weird idea in the back of my head. - i will make some trial, if i will be able to fake a line on wooden lograils. (but i have to find out, if that is within my abilities)

_Upper level: Shelves might be a bit wide, overhanging the lower level too much. If it were just where the downward loops have to be stashed, it wouldn't be too bad, as it is, there is the 'overhang' effect._ 

yes, you are right.  at the actual building i have to make it as small as possible.

_Question: given that all this is freestanding; how do you intend to work the supports between the main and upper levels? 
_
the outer side will be by wooden tables, that  double as support for the background and get connected to the walls at about7 feet of height. 
inside of the higher mountains i will hide additional pillars.
at the front and at selected places in the middle, the upper level will be supported by 1/4" copperpipes, that will be camouflaged as high(est) trees.

_A thought: maybe 'flip' the narrow guage lines? Put the mining line on the upper level, with attendant businesses (allowing for narrower shelves and the isolated peninsula bit) with the agricultural line on the main level._ 

hmmmmm..... i'll have to think about that....
bringin the mainline up to the upper level, is in part an act of hope. i am hoping, that one day i get the right of way for the 16' x 16' of the room, that lie on the other side of the doors too.  ;-)
but, if i think about the challenge, to bring the mining area to the upper level... - a mountain, towering more than 7 foot above the floor, really should be impressive.

_why is there so much open real estate along the track to the cottonfields area? is this to be all scenery?_

yes!
i hate railroads, where the fireman waves at the girls in the outskirts of 'Reaching-City', while the brakeman still shouts to his wife in 'Leavingville'.
it took me enough years to conquer enough space, to make something not overcrowded. so my layout shall give a spacious impression.

and, (i hope the forum-software can absorb the shock) i am not that interested in trains.
i just like trains, as part of the scenery. but i really love making wooden buildings with false fronts.
since my first HO train in 1957 every permanent or temporary layout i made, was either wild west, mining or civil war.

_I'd be concerned about the tightness of the curves._ 

see above. my themes don't need long trains. the longest train planned will be my express with the bachmann 4-6-0 with four converted 'Dickie' passenger cars. alltogether about one inch shy of seven foot.
most of the short curves are hidden, so no one sees the trains biting their tail.
and i simply do not like modern trains. if somebody would present me a modern passenger car it probably would be converted to a logging disconnect...

_Why not build the wall framework for the lowest and highest levels and begin construction on the trackage on the middle level._

yes, i will build all my levels in that method. it allways looks different on the table, than on the paper.

_Wide radius curves reversing direction in the area of "noname city" and then a return with wide radius in the area of the Cottonmill ...

_yes. sure will i make the visible curves as soft, as i can.

_...with point to point to the extreme ends and to the other layers..._
 
i got just one LGB point to point set. (and i am not sure, if i get everything, i need to copy it, here in the country.)  i allready plan, how i can make a mecanical point to point system for the logging line.
but the electric gimmicks for two interconnected two-direction-one-rail block-systems i allready built for the last layout. so dogbones it should be.

branchline No1 goes from the harbour to the lower deck, passes the storage without stop. goes up to no name city, loads coal and goes back to the harbour unloading.
branchline No2 goes at the same time from the harbour to no name city. from there to the storage below. it stops there, and branchline No3 goes to the harbour.(waiting at the switch, where it enters the mainline, till the track is free.) No2, No3 and in future maybe No4 allways alternate.

when both branchline trains are in 'no name city', (remember Lee Marvin? "i was borne under a wandrin' star...), they trigger the two S&G trains at the harbour. one goes to Wayne city, the other to Southville. and the two trains at Hodge City. one goes to Southville, one to Wayne City.

when both branchline trains meet at the harbour, they send off the trains at southville and at Wayne city.

the train reaching Southville from the harbour sets off the branchliners in no name city.
the train reaching Hodge City from Wayne City triggers the branchliners at the harbour.

the train, leaving the harbor for Wayne City stops the branchliner from below to the harbor before the switch, and sets it free again, at reaching Wayne City.
in Southville the S&G has one train allways waiting, to alternate with the one from the harbor. (that way, not allways the same two trains meet at the same stations.)

believe me, it sounds more complicated, than it is.
most switches are just feathering, only where trains alternate, and at the swiches, where the two lines run together, i need motors.

korm.

ps: got an anouncement:
(the necessary holes wait for being drilled, till i got my workbench moved)


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd also give a bit of thought to relocating the switch for the descent track; maybe move it back towards the port a bit. Turn the port into the junction as well as a port. Let the first part of the decent track run in parallel with the main line. 

why? 



Two reasons: 

First, having a junction switch out there by its lonesome is a bit 'odd'. 

Second, if I understand your operational scheme correctly, putting this switch at the port - preferably off one of the yard tracks - would simplify your operations. 

hate railroads, where the fireman waves at the girls in the outskirts of 'Reaching-City', while the brakeman still shouts to his wife in 'Leavingville'. 
it took me enough years to conquer enough space, to make something not overcrowded. so my layout shall give a spacious impression. 

I share the feeling. One of the rules I laid down for myself when planning my line was: 'Thou shalt have at least two full train lengths between major stations' (or at least one train length between a major and a minor station). 

I did come up with a way to enforce this; it involves a pile of R1 curves and a 30 degree crossover (to be hidden in a tunnel). Limits the maximum train length to Annie, tender, six full sized cars, and a bobber caboose. If the distances start looking a tad short between some of your burgs, perhaps something similiar might work. 

So...your main interst is in the buildings? In that case, I would suggest you make very sure you have adequate clearance between levels. Discovering that the masterpiece structure you spent months building is a half inch too high to fit in its designated location would be annoying.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

_First, having a junction switch out there by its lonesome is a bit 'odd'. 
_
right.

_putting this switch at the port - preferably off one of the yard tracks - would simplify your operations. 
_
plus - it would save me one switch. yes, i see, that part should be changed. thanks.

_maximum train length to 

Annie, tender,_  - (if that is the starterpack bachmann 4-6-0)  together it is 27"
 
_six full sized cars,_  - 40cm/16"? that would be 96"

_and a bobber caboose._ - 12"

alltogether 135" or better said 11' 3" that means 13 foot for sidings plus switches. that is nearly double from what i am planning.
are there any fotos from your 'limited' layout? 

_I would suggest you make very sure you have adequate clearance between levels. 
_
the figures, horsecarts and animals i got, are from Timpo Toys (1:32) and the small Hausser line(1:30) so i make my buildings with 9cm - 3,1/2" floors.
judging from Blackburns fine fotos even arond 1900 there were very few buildings with more than two floors in rural areas or boomtowns.(save the mines)

do you really think, that 2 foot or 6,1/2 floors height will be not enough for my mid 1800s towns?
churches  - two floors high plus two floors tower
hotels - three floors high
water towers - three to four floors high
two floor-barns and storages -  twice 1, 1/2 floors high

if i am not misstaken, only the mine needs more height. that is, why i plan to make that part of the layout without upper level.
...................
hmmm.... - new line of thinking - maybe i should bring the cotton area to the middle level (the highest building there will be "Tara") and bring Wayne City to the upper level.
the ceiling of the room will be inclined. while it will be only about seven foot high at the wall to the right of the harbor, it will be about 12 foot above the doors. (seven foot above upper level - 23 floors!) it still won't be enough for the empire state, but it would be more floors, than anybody would like to climb without lift.

thanks for making me think along new rails.

korm
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Annie, tender, - (if that is the starterpack bachmann 4-6-0) together it is 27" 

six full sized cars, - 40cm/16"? that would be 96" 

and a bobber caboose. - 12" 

alltogether 135" or better said 11' 3" that means 13 foot for sidings plus switches. that is nearly double from what i am planning.


We take different approaches. My major stations are actually switching puzzles with little or nothing in the way of true mainline sidings roughly along the lines of 'Timesaver' and 'Inglenook'. The mainline loco (Annie) comes in, uncouples its string of cars, then heads off to the engine track where it waits while the switcher works its way through the convoluted trackwork, breaking down the old train and putting together a new one. I just wanted a decent amount of distance between the puzzles, hence the 'R1 Loop'. My initial plans, which died because of a lack of space, did call for 11 and 12 foot sidings. 

Mostly, I was just pointing out a way you could use to stretch some distance between the towns if they started looking a bit close. 


are there any fotos from your 'limited' layout? 

Not yet. I'm still at the 'Plywood and Southern' level, for what its worth. 

Point of curiosity: where are you located?


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2008)

We take different approaches. 

definitely. i know, there are people, who got lots of fun from model switchyards. - but it is not my thing. 
if i had a switchyard, i think i would go outright crazy, trying to automatize it. 

about space - take a lot of pills. (i found out, that the more pills the doctors feed me, the more generous my wife hands out the right of way for my railroad.) 

I'm still at the 'Plywood and Southern' level, for what its worth.

when that level is done, for me it is allways time, to begin a new layout. (right now waiting for some glue to settle. trying to make a new type of window) 

where are you located?

30 years ago, i stranded in southamerica, the western part of paraguay. mainly thornbush, like in the texan panhandle. next town with more than 6000 souls (and next toyshop) at about 300 miles, next hobbyshop in another country. 

korm 
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

about space - take a lot of pills. (i found out, that the more pills the doctors feed me, the more generous my wife hands out the right of way for my railroad.) 


That approach wouldn't work with me I'm afraid...because I'm single (and these days, the dang pills cost too much). I did knock a series of large holes through a low wall to give me more space, letting me add a 4 x 14 foot area to my 10.5x27 layout room. 
That was a bigger pain in the butt than anticipated, which is why I'm still at the 'Plywood and Southern' level. However, that is just about all the space I can get. 

30 years ago, i stranded in southamerica, the western part of paraguay. mainly thornbush, like in the texan panhandle. next town with more than 6000 souls (and next toyshop) at about 300 miles, next hobbyshop in another country. 


Yikkes! And I thought Blackburn and me were out in the sticks here in the currently frozen Alaskan wilderness. Where you're at...even EBAY must be prohibitvely expensive, or close to it.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2008)

And I thought Blackburn and me were out in the sticks here in the currently frozen Alaskan wilderness.


you are! you really are. we never snow in. frostbite is impossible to get. last day freezing is about three years ago. i would change lokations with you two anytime... for a two weeks vacation. but for life? three quarters of the year confined to indoors? i don't think, that i could stand up to that. 

Where you're at...even EBAY must be prohibitvely expensive, or close to it.


here is no ebay. when i need something i can not build myself, i buy at ebay in germany. let them send the things to my brother in law, who buys some space in the next freightcontainer to paraguay. 
so what i buy, i normally get half a year later. - but that's ok. this way i don't spend too much money, and the hobby gets more challenging by selfmaking. 

korm 
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

three quarters of the year confined to indoors? i don't think, that i could stand up to that. 


Actually, at least in my corner of the state, it works out to a bit over five months: While we may get a couple shots of snow in October (and sometimes in September), it usually is not down for the duration until the first or second week of November. Normal wintertime temps are on the order of +10 to +25F; with occasional spikes up to about +40F for as much as a week or so; and the odd week or three dip when it drops below -10F (for me - in Blackburns corner it would be colder yet). Warmer temps in winter usually mean overcast skies and a high chance of snow, which means a lot of us actually prefer it on the colder end of the spectrum. About the end of the first week in April you start seeing small islands of dirt amidst the snow (usually on hills) and by the end of the third week in April there are only a few patches of snow here and there. By the start of May, you have to do some serious hunting about to find even a snowbank. Of course, the melting snow does result in a lot of water: there are mudholes and temporary lakes hereabouts that come and go each spring. 

November and December there be the holidays with part time jobs for those who want them, plus all the sales and family get togethers and whatnot. Most of that ends in January, but it starts getting lighter out (longer days) plus there is a bit of a carryover effect (discount sales and the like). In Feb, things start getting tedious, and by March serious cabin fever starts setting in; more than a few folk around here regard March as the longest deadest month of the year: the snow is still down, there is little or no work, and while its warmer and lighter outside, you still can't really do all that much. So you sit around broke and bored until mid April. 

Drat, I sound like a bloody weather report.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2008)

your life up there seems quite different from ours. about 60 days a year the temperature is below 90° F. in a normal year we have two or three nights below 32°F. sometimes as 'cold' as 26°F! a fireplace is luxury - an aircondition not. (that is, why i opt for an indoor layout. that and lots of insects - the whole year round) 
normally we got more than 300 cloudless days per year. and the 28 to 60" of anual rain are divided in 20 to 30 days. 
longest day has about 13 hours light, shortest about 11. 
seems, that the only condition we got in common is mud. we got 90% clayey soil - and the first tar road reached our town about a year ago. now they are starting to pave the mainstreet. 
and now i go back to my first try in casting windows. 

korm 
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

300+ days of 90+F temps...and only a few days of 32F or under. We get maybe one or two days of 90F temps in mid summer, and even that is far from certain. Strangely, temps that high are much more likely in the interior (well to the north of me) than along the coast where I'm at. Most of the time, the summer temps are on the order of 50-70F (70F is probably slightly chilly for you, almost unbearably hot for us); in the spring and fall...something on the order of 30-55F. Probably get rain or snow maybe two and a half months out of the year; though SE Alaska gets rain almost every day and the interior is about two notches above being a desert. Blackburn and myself are well below the actic circle, so no midnight sun (or endless night) for us; though in mid summer it is truly dark for only a couple hours and come christmas the sun is up for less than six hours. 

Back on topic, though... 

Water flows downhill until it reaches the sea...but you have your seaport on the middle level, which technically would put your storage level below sea level. Yes, the track is hidden, but it still seems a tad off. 

You also plan on having a number of theme areas for your layout which you'd like to keep separate. 

So...and I'm not sure how the exact track scheme would work, but you do have the space for it...why not leave the port at the same location, but 'drop' it to the bottom level, and leave a corresponding 'hole' in the middle level above it? (except for the 'backstage' tracks). This would split the main level into two long sections, each with its own 'theme'. The 'hiidden' portion of the lower level would still have the staging yard.

How did the windows turn out by the way?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2008)

How did the windows turn out by the way?


the material for the molds is still not dry. i think, i'll have to try other materials. 

at 70°F i often put on a waistcoat. 

why not leave the port at the same location, but 'drop' it to the bottom level, and leave a corresponding 'hole' in the middle level above it? 


i have actually a plan where i projected just the oposite. to put the harbour at half height between middle level and upper level. 
when i was young, in Hamburg we had a museum, where ship models were let in in glas. the glas representing the surface of the sea, and the ships visible "underwater" as well. 
i am willing to copy that. imagine: you see the harbor, trains, that unload coal in a barge, the cannery and a sailing fishcutter. if you bend down a little, you see below the sealevel. everything slightly greenish, in the foreground the net and keel of the cutter some fish in the net. the sandy seabottom, seaweed, some junk, that had gone overboard sometime. a halfburied anchor in the ribbed sand... - no! no mermaid! maybe a female swimmer... 
.... but the water surface is at a mere two foot! you will never see her! 

this weekend was bad. the molds don't dry, and i have half a dozen new, unfinished layout plans. including a modul layout. lots of ideas, but none, that lets the bell ring. 

korm 
.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 02/28/2008 3:35 PM
thank you all for your comments.

_why is there so much open real estate along the track to the cottonfields area? is this to be all scenery?_

yes!
* i hate railroads, where the fireman waves at the girls in the outskirts of 'Reaching-City', while the brakeman still shouts to his wife in 'Leavingville'.*
it took me enough years to conquer enough space, to make something not overcrowded. so my layout shall give a spacious impression.
Great description of a common irritation many of us face in this large scale constructing these monstrosities with the usual amount of very limited space--particularly if indoors, but even in many yards.  I love it.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a thought on this. Given how little track you actually have down there, plus the extensive 'backstage' area, why have the lower level at all? Just go with two levels - the main level, with your train storage spurs hidden away on the back side somewhere (and possibly turned into another town at some future point) and the upper level. One loop per level, remaining at a zero grade, with a single connecting track between the levels. Might let you get away with longer trains, just in case that urge did hit someday.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

train storage spurs hidden away on the back side somewhere

interesting idea. - i could use the space, that now is used for the downward slopes. 

with a single connecting track between the levels.

have to think about that. it would mean, to give up the idea of the two lines meeting at the harbor (or not??) 

but that will have to wait. at the moment i will need most of the time, that work does not eat ,for the building of the room. 
i hired the cheapest contractors in town for the walls and for the roof. - meaning, i have to controll the work continuously myself. 
and as there are, besides the hobbyroom, some little works, my wife demanded as bribe for the hobbyroom-permission (some bricklaid arches for the backporch, another bathroom, a new main entrance, a new driveway to the new entrance....). so i have no peace for planning at the moment. 

get a little give a little.... 


...a little more... 

korm 
.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

get a little give a little.... 


...a little more... 




Actually, the expression is: 

'You give them an inch - and they'll take a mile.'


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2008)

in germany they say: give the little finger, they take the whole hand.

after some serious brainstorming (my wife stormed at my brain), we came to the conclusion, that it would be of advantage, if the maid can reach the windows and doors of my room for cleaning without going on all four.

so below is the definitive plan of the benchwork. with movable bridges for the maintenance crew...
putting the two wings against the wall leaves enough room in the middle of the room, to put the mine and the harbor. so my two main-projects will have enough room.

the tracks are for a first development stage. just the middle level. upper level and belowtable storage will eventually be added later.
(the straight tracks along the walls will be built seperately on long boards, so i can upgrade/grade-up them, when needed to access the upper level)


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, now you know what you are stuck with for table space. Just have to plan and work around it. (I seem to be doing a lot of that lately - contemplating yet another revision, though I might hold off on it until next winter).


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

well, i am really glad, that i have not to hold off any longer. it is about time, to do something again. 
allthough the walls are only about a foot high, and the roof has not be done yet, i plan use the easter holydays to chalkmark the tables on the fllor and lay out the tracks to see where i have to change the plan. (if the weather holds) 

korm 
.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

who can tell me, if this plan might work?


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## dana (Jan 7, 2008)

What is a team track? 
To anwser the question a team track was and is a sideing where teams of wagons and later motor trucks picked up and droped off thier loads to the railroad , this way they didnt have to pay for thier trackage to thier factory,all they had to do was pay for hualing frieght rates charged by the railroads, every thing from wheat & feed to lumber &machinery waspicked up and dropped of at a team track


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2008)

i understand. thank you.


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

reviving: 

my hobby-room is built. friday the second window and the door will be set in. 
coming weekend the benchwork shall begin. 

so this is my last chance to get counsel. 
below you see my actual plan. 
(yes, R1 curves. my longest train will be seven foot long. the bachmann 4-6-0 is and will be my longest loco.)


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

First thought is you'll need a helmet what with all the head-knockers (duck-unders). You might want to redesign it to get those to a minimum. Don't know how limber you are, but climbing underneath the lower ones can bring on some serious aches and pains. 

Maybe some sort of 'center peninsula' design? Or short stubby peninsula's that come out from the long walls, each dedicated to a specific theme? (they would sort of 'interlock'). 

Aside from that, I find myself wondering about just how much vertical space you have between levels, especially the ranching areas in the lower right. 

I like the isolated mountain section. That has potential. 

The narrow guage lines are pretty decent as well.


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

ThinkerT, 

the cattle yard will be 2' 2" higher, than the ranches. 
same as the lower and the upper tables in the middle. 
the higher buildings will be on the upper layout. (and the mountain from the mining area will peak about 4 or 5 foot above the table. as eye-catcher - i changed my mind, building mountains is easy and they look impressing) 

bridges. - upper level the one on the blue line will be trestes, standing on the middle level (no walk-through) 
the one on the green lin will be 6' on its lower side. we haven't much people longer than 6' here (with 5' 11" i am long in comparison to most folks here) 

middle and lower level - the two bridges at the right (one above the other) will be removable (giving the maid access to clean the window at the right) 

the bridge between the mining area and the rest of the layout will be hinged at the left side, raising the right side to give access to the door-window (window-door?) leading in the garden. 
(got everything ready for the bridge, except thin screws, i ordered from the capital) 

peninsulas from the side would be mainly curves, if i stay with automatic running loops. 
by connecting the middle from "above" (in the plan) i win the right side for my habor. (as dry as it is here, i simply have to have at least fake water...) 
i thought long about your idea, to put the harour on the lower level. 
but the "middle level harbor" got one big advantage: up to the upper level and down to the lower are just a bit over a foot from there. (instead of 2' 4" between levels) 

korm 

ps: and you? allready leaving "southern and plywood" stage? 
pps: got a fine idea. by using parts of 30° crossings and some curves, i think i can make two switches from one crossing. (for small locos only - a bit sharper than R1)


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... 

...6 foot duckunders and a trestle between sections sounds much better. The hinged bridges will help as well. 

A thought regarding the mountain section and the main line: don't run the mainline there, instead run it over to where you have the narrow guage set up and put the loop there. The reason being that rugged mountains are where you find narrow gauge lines; hence have that section all narrow guage, possibly connected to the narrow gauge line on the table there. 


As to myself...well, I am still at the 'Plywood and Southern' stage, though I can run trains now (my expansion made that impossible for a while). I have to finish up a bit of electrical work to make it really operational, though. I am starting to muck around with building a couple of small houses...but summer is just around the corner and I am starting to get a lot busier at work (seasonal economy), leaving me less time for this sort of thing. 

Good luck with making the switches. I would think, though, that if you spent enough time on EBAY, you might still get some at a low price. I picked up five damaged Aristocraft switches that way not that long ago, and managed to restore four of them (ran out of the various screws and widgets needed to get them all repaired). Of course, you'd probably have to wait months for them to be delivered to you...


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

R1 curves don't limit you to the trains you might think... 

I had 4' diameter curves for a while... 

You can run Aristo FAs, RS3s, Critters, 0-4-0s 
You can cram a Uboat around them too, looks ugly... 

The FAs are awesome on the small curves.. 

Lgb 2-4-0s look nice and run great... 

lots of other trains too... some look bad though with overhang... 

The Bachmann 4-6-0s make it because of the blind center drivers... 
But I think they stink at pulling... 


Philip


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

lathroum, 

Lgb 2-4-0s look nice and run great... 

if i can find one here, i sure will buy it. 

The Bachmann 4-6-0s make it because of the blind center drivers... 
But I think they stink at pulling... 

i got one. even the playmobil westernloco (motor in the tender) pulls more than this bachmann. 
but as i restrict myself to 1.5 meter/5' of cars per train, that is no problem. 


ThinkerT, 

Good luck with making the switches.

for warming up i made a joiner, to run two tracks over a bridge with the width for one. (tracks and trestles section) 
on the same principle, just using a 6" piece of straight track as tongue (instead of the doubletrack) i plan to make the switches. 
i just wait for a couple of outside rear mirror motors for cars, i ordered from the capital. 

regarding the mountain section and the main line: run it over to where you have the narrow guage set up and put the loop there.


this is the basic idea of the mining section: 










high up the mineshaft. coal brought out with a HO-cart. (point to point) and emptied in a storage. 
the mountain line hopper (32mm gauge) is filled and drives down (partly on trestles) to one foot above the mainline. emptying in another storage. 
the mainline (45mm) hopper is filled from storage and emptied at the harbor in a ship. 

if i follow your idea, i could use the narrow-line instead of the mainline. carrying coal to where? 
the HO could get the job as "mountaingoat". 
for the mineshaft-carts i could use some HOn3 leftovers, i have somewhere... 
but then i have to build one or two 32mm locos. 

you gave me something for serious thinking. 

korm 
.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2008)

some weeks passed, a lot of new plans too... 

now i got one, that holds my attention for a couple of days allready. 
just two levels, one mainline going both levels. seven visible stations, one hidden. five trains clockwise, four counterclockwise. automated. 
another line going from the harbor to the mining district. one loop, one wye. two trains. automatic loading and unloading. 
a mountain goat line from the mine to the coaldepot. point to point. one train 32mm. automatic loading and unloading. 
an automatic point to point line in 32mm from the cotton area to the next station. 
a lumberline on wooden rails. (maybe with automatic loading and unloading, if i am able to set that up) 

i got all material needed, (including some homemade track) save some locos for the shortlines and five switches. 
(first tests with a central-car-locking system instead of switchmotors were encouraging)


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

I like it. Much more streamlined than the previous plans, making it easy to get around. 

I do see a bit of a problem with access to the 'back side' of the city and port, because of the duckunders, especially with the switches over there. That could probably stand a bit more thought. 


About the only other thing I'd suggest would be to look into somehow connecting a couple of the narrow gauge stretches together.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

Much more streamlined than the previous plans, making it easy to get around.

i think, i get near to the end of planning. the new plans don't differ much anymore. 

especially with the switches over there.

those are no switches. was it here, or in the british forum, where i showed, how i plan to join tracks to go over bridges? "running the gauntlet" it is called, i was told. 










both bridges will be hinged, to permit access. i am still not sure, if the bridge from the city (green line, not marked as bridge) should be hinged too. 

yes, the port is a bit wide for my arms. 7 foot! but i console myself, that in the middle are no trains and no function-modells. just houses. 
(plus, the hard training during the last weeks lets my belly shrink, so my reach gets longer...) 

about the connection of the narrow gauge lines i am not sure, that it would further things. 
the logging line would need another bridge more, and more important, i will try, to make it run on logs as rails. 
the other two could be easyly connected via the bridge.(a two gauge gauntlet. would be interesting)but than my plans for automatic loading and unloading would be void. 
at the mining area station i plan a coalbox on trestles, to load the hoppers, that will be unloaded in the ship, while the narrowgauge, running on higher trestles, will fill the box with coal, it gets from the mill at the mine.the mill gets the coal from the mineshaft via a wooden slide. 
how to load and unload cottonsacks i am still unsure.maybe hidden in some sheds. 

korm 
.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The Gauntlet? Man, your nuts! 

New plan looks very interesting, sorry I didnt participate but I'fe found I'm actually kinda lousy at large area layout planning, small layouts and micros are my particular, or is that peculiar, specialty.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

Man, your nuts! 

yes, i allready knew that.... 
but why must i be nuts to let my trains run the gauntlet? 

large area layout planning

who is planning large areas? 
i am just planning one diorama beside the next.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Love the gauntlet trackage!! I have had friend suggest I run a guantlet across my lone bridge to double track my mainline! 

Track plan looks like a lot of fun. I think I enjoy the planning stages most... 

Mark


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

I think I enjoy the planning stages most... 

i fully understand that. but it is a lonely fun. i am looking forward to the building stage, involving my girls in treemaking and landscaping.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

You've got tree making girls? Where did you find them?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

A tree that makes girls???? WOW, I want one, too.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2008)

nope, you got it wrong. a trunk makes the girls, the girls make the trees. the girls, not the bees.....


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## pacbelt (Jul 8, 2008)

Love the new plan, looks much more functional. Really love the gauntlet track! That should make things interesting.... 

I'm sad you don't actually have any girl making trees!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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