# Where to put the gear?



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi once again, hope I'm not being a pest, but I figure I'm on a roll so here goes.


Thanks to all the enlightenment here, I’ve decided on using the NCE 10A DCC radio system. Thanks so much Greg and everyone else who stepped me through all this!
Question now is, where to put the gear? In the wake of the above decision, I've been considering a rain-proof mini shed or cabinet of some sort to house the controls gear. It would be under the middle stairway of the observation tower shown here on the right: 











It sure would be nice to have the 110 breakers right there (see my prior post), and not have to run around the layout, take my boots off and go to the far side of the basement to shut off a circuit. (I’m expecting to do this hundreds of times before I get things right).
But here's a question on a different way to go, for at least the track power. My garage is near the layout area (to the left of the dark brown deck section), so it's possible that I keep the NCE equipment there, try to shove things onto existing circuits, and try to extend radio reception via a string of repeaters. 


I apologize for the vagueness of the question, but do you guys have any advice or warnings here?
Thanks!
Cliff (in Maryland)


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

All you may need to place outside is the radio base station. This may not even be necessary if the walls of the house are wood and don't have a metal mesh in them. 

It is preferrable to put everything inside that you can. All 110 VAC power should have GFI's installed, either in the breaker box or in the outlet that this stuff plugs into. 

With a duplex throttle, you shoudn't need physical access to the equipment except when it is time to turn it on and off. I have my stuff set up on X-10 appliance modules so that I can turn it on and off remotely. A programmed X-10 timer shuts the whole layout down at 10 PM if I forget to.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the quick reply George, 

My garage is built of studs, drywall and vinyl siding. Will the radio waves go thru that? 
The garage circuits are already GFI-protected, on their own breakers. But I'm pretty sure that when we built the place ~16 years ago, I specified that there would be 2 dedicated circuits there. (My memory is foggy though). 
I'll need to do a little survey on just what their loads / consumers are. 
For the R/C though (oops, can I say that here?) I can put repeaters outside, correct? 
Great tip on mixing in the X-10 stuff! I've read a little about it, but not used it. I'll definitely look into that. 

Thanks for giving me great stuff to mull over, 
Cliff


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Those materials are all dielectrics of one kind or another. They may be lossy but they will pass RF. What won't is a sheet of conductor. The foil backing on most fiberglass insulator materials will also block RF. It is usually a metalized paper of some kind. Chicken wire has a tight enough mesh to appear to be a solid metal sheet to the wavelengths used for the NCE remotes. You should FIRST try it out with the base station sitting right next to the exterior wall. It may be good enough. 

If it isn't, then run the network/low voltage power wire outdoors and hang the base station inside an upside down bucket attached to the underside of the deck. Leave the rest of the gear inside.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ah, the up-side down bucket. That's the ticket, because it seems that I'll need 2 repeaters for good coverage, and they'd need the same treatment anyway. 
Thanks George!


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Maybe my experience installing the NCE 10-amp system last April will give you an idea what you can do.

All my electricals are in the garage so I don't have to worry about having 110 volt power where anyone can get to it. There's a single run of 12 guage ROMEX running under the patio to get the NCE output to the track. From a buried junction box, multiple runs of 14 (or is it 12) guage stranded wire go out to various points along the layout - a direct connection roughly every 100 feet of track. The only drawback I've found to my system is when a derailment (or a tool falling across the track) causes a short and I have to go back to the garage to reset. It doesn't happen very often, so I'm happy the way it is. Nothing to drag out at the beginning of an operating session; nothing to worry about leaving outside in the rain. Just turn on the NCE, grab the cab and go.

The layout is basically a "U" around the house, from south (mid-house, edge of patio) up the west edge of the house, and halfway along the north face of the house; about 180 degrees around the house. Here's a view of the west side facing south.










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In the garage I ran the NCE wireless wire (!) up to the ceiling and around to sneak it out along the upper edge of the exterior siding. I was able to hide it under the siding most of the way to the southwest corner (top center of photo above), where the RB02 base station hangs upside down thanks to self-adhesive Velcro-type hook and loop fastener. From there, the wire is hidden under the siding along the west side of the house to the RPT1 repeater which hangs under the northwest corner of the soffit. My ProCab can control everything, most anywhere I care to stand while operating. However, there is one point where I have somewhat iffy control.











The RPT1 is hanging under the northwest corner of the soffit (top right edge of photo, near neighbor's car).If I stand on the gravel driveway at left, I have to make sure the 7 foot bush doesn't get between me and the RPT1; the bush blocks the signal. I expect to add another RPT1 to the overhang near the door so I have better coverage.

My testing last year showed the NCE wireless system can have a range of well over 100 feet if the path is clear. It doesn't take much to block the signal and put you totally out of control. This includes your own body. Turn your back to the antenna and you're likely to lose control, depending on how you hold the cab. If I learned nothing else this summer, it's that ease of operation is dependant on always having a good shot at the antenna. Plan on more repeaters than you really think are necessary and you'll have excellent control of your trains.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

hang the base station inside an upside down bucket attached to the underside of the deck. 

I'm not sure about George's suggestion. I would expect that, depending on the depth of the bucket, the sides would restrict the signal except in a downward direction where it is unobstructed. I've heard many people mention using a tin pie plate to help increase the signal. Actually a large cookie sheet would be even better (albeit unattractive) since the large surface area would increase the take-off angle of the signal. The larger the metal sheet at the base of the antenna, the more horizontal the pattern of the signal. 

JackM


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Perhaps a plastic bucket.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I am sure we are talking plastic!









Put the base station outside, if at all possible.

Yes, pie tins and ground planes help on unbalanced radiators.

The whip provided with your RB02 is a 1/2 wave, which needs no ground plane, and has a flatter radiation angle over a 1/4 wave antenna which would benefit from a ground plane. (There's too many people giving advice out there that think all antennas are alike apparently)

I ran 110v out to a location that was convenient to reduce track wire runs: (upside down irrigation sump)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Jack, 
I see a lot of similarities with my house & layout; thanks for the great pics, and the warnings about reception. It seems odd to me that the reception isn't better for r/c; but I really like how NCE's repeaters can be easily added if need be. 
I'll have to use the plastic bucket / box approach though, since my soffits are way above track & operator level.
Thanks much, and best regards,
CLiff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

_ I have my stuff set up on X-10 appliance modules so that I can turn it on and off remotely. A programmed X-10 timer shuts the whole layout down at 10 PM if I forget to._

Been looking into the X10 gear George, thanks for the tip. Seems like I could rig up a box in the garage with X-10 switches, dimmers & appliance receptacles, and have pretty good flexibility with integrating the NCE gear and various outdoor lighting, all under remote control. Awesome! I really like the computer interface / programmability, and the idea of expanding to security cam's (we don't have any fences, so I'll need to have some kind of deterrent for the occasional neighbor kid who gets too nosey when we're out...) 

Greg, you mention on your site somewhere the ability to remotely control things from a computer, I think from your phone even? And are using X-10 equipment, and phoning into that, or...? Just curious.

Best regards all, 
Cliff


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The phone in system works too. I use it to remotely turn on the heaters in my cabin so that when I get there, the place is warm.... 

Yeah, a PLASTIC bucket to keep "horizontal" rain off the electronics. I suggested hanging it from under the deck to keep it as high as possible. It'll have a better chance at a line of site link.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I love it!!

Now, all I need is a G-gauge Rottweiler (better: toy Doberman), equipped with a specialized DCC sound decoder, to chase the neighbor kids off, when the X10 cam's & motion detectors alert me to their presence on my phone! 

Cliff

For the record George, at least I understood that you were speaking of a plastic bucket.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I use a different approach, the box in the picture may not be big enough for the NCE radio

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/101224_girr_radio_box_9303.jpg


http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/101224_girr_radio_box_open_9304.jpg 




I got it from MPJA


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

What, I'm the only guy who remembers galvanized buckets, pails, tubs. gutters?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, we just all automatically assumed plastic so as not to obstruct the signal, also plastic never rusts. 

ha ha! 

Merry Christmas, 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sorry for going off topic, but Speaking of the rack-o-equipment in the garage I'm now envisioning... 

I've been looking at the Malibu 300W power packs for low-v lighting (for buildings, maybe paths). Kinda pricey (~$100). 
Plastic cadelabra bases are cheap, led 12v cadelabra bulbs are ok (~$2.50). Is it any big deal to supply them with a cheaper & more powerful power supply, perhaps a simple transformer, say something like this ($15): 

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_149771_-1 

Could house the xformer(s) in their own grounded enclosures, locate them with the other gear in the garge, and switch them with the X-10 system. So I wouldn't need the weatherproofing or timer of the Malibu unit. 

Does this approach seem workable? Or am I missing anything major? 

One last question, and I'm afraid it's a whopper of a dumb one, regarding total 110v amps needed for a 12v light system, you add the (12v bulb) watts and divide by 110, not 12, right? 

Thanks guys, hope you had a great Christmas! (but now it's time to get back to railroading, ha ha!) 

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Works fine:










Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I smell sumtin burnin what you tink?????? Hah LOL Regal


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

a watt is a measure of power. It's the same (ignoring transformer/power supply losses) at 12 or 120 volts. The current at 12 volts is 10x the current at 120 volts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's why you see 1800 watts there (the big one is a dual 300 watt). 

That's only half of my outdoor lighting. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I knew it was a dumb question... just wanting to be sure, because I want to have a reasonable idea of number of circuits to run, when I get the electrical contractor to estimate it. Currently, I'm thinking ~8.
Greg, for those 1,800 watts, sounds like you're either maxing out a dedicated 15A circuit, or going bordline with a 20A? I'd love to see your breaker list, do you have one handy, or one your site somewhere? Regardless, thanks for the pic! Worth at least 997 words (1000 minus the three you posted)







! I see also that you're using X-10 devices, are you happy with them, or wish you'd gone with Insteon? (Please say you're happy with them). And what's that box on the upper right, with the 220v male prongs sticking out? Just curious.

Main question, why bother with the Malibu transformers when a) you're mounting them indoors, it seems, b) you're controlling via X-10, and c) simple transformers-in-a-box would be far cheaper? I must be missing something, because you seem like such a frugal dude 

===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That picture is inside my garage, and you can see a transfer panel up and to the right. The main house panel, 400 amps is right on the other side of the wall. That is a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and a very short run, like 2 feet, to the panel. I have another 200 amp panel dedicated to the outside, another set of transformers, and a few other things, including a 220v spa that draws a max of 60 amps (at 220). 

There are actually two 7,500 watt transfer panels, each is actually split with it's own meter. 

I have used X 10 for about 20 years, I am converting over to Z wave. I don't like the slowness of the signal on the electrical lines. The Z wave is better, it's a mesh network, fast. Insteon is OK, but seems kind of halfway to the right idea. 

The Malibu transformers were inexpensive, and I have a number of separate lighting circuits to reduce voltage drop, and also to keep lights at the same brightness. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Greg. 

Turns out that my panels are 400A total, with ~10 spare slots; so (pending a conversation with my electrician friend) instead of a sub panel I'm thinking of running 8 20A circuits to what amounts to an array of wall boxes, each with some sort of X-10 or other remote-op device (appliance outlet, swtich or dimmer). 

Your 200A box is a sub panel, correct? Or do you have 600A service? (!?) 

Just looked at some Zwave devices. Pricier than X-10, but maybe not with all the comments I've seen about people regularly having to replace X-10 stuff! I like the networking though, as with Insteon; I get it. 

As with so many aspects of this awesome hobby, I'm only just starting to learn what I don't know! So thanks again, and best regards. 

Cliff


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