# Next layout construction, some ideas ....



## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

As time moves forward, the day we move is getting closer and I'm starting to think about how to build the next layout. 
I know about what I want to do to build it, but finding the right (and cheapest way to do it) to build the layout is the question. The first thing is that I want to build the track plan about 36" above ground for 2 reasons. First off it would be nice to make any changes or re-rail any cars, locos WITHOUT have to bend over stressing out one's back. Yep, even Rock's getting a bit older too these days







Secondly, It would be nice to be able to sit in a lawn chair next to the layout and just lean back to watch trains at eye level as if you were standing along the track as we do with the 1 to 1 scale. Now I don't want to have this done by the how do you say it, the platform with legs method -where you can see under the track. I want this to be a solid, filled in way of construction because I will be running a 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe to carry wires running track power, signal wires, camara lines, etc.. This PVC pipe needs to be hidden and out of sight. 

When I was first thinking about construction I thought of using landscape block on the inside of the layout with plain cider block on the outside of the layout. Then I figured price and it gets $$$ real quick







My next thought would be to use old railway ties - this is more appropiate and maybe quite cheaper too, but it would be a bit of work to cut them for the corners. Either way, I would be filling them in between with gravel and dirt as fill and do the top half Astro turf type green or brown outdoor carpet stuff like I had on the Little big layout with painted brick for highways, etc.. Now the first layer underneath the landscaping will be the weedblock material - because we all know the frustration of weeding







But it should be a nice looking layout, like an indoor layout, just outside and larger. I am planning to incorperate 2 smaller ponds, one at layout level behind the track next to the "mountains" and a small river running along the track with flowing water leading to a waterfall that will come out to the front of the layout under a bridge flowing to a smaller pond with a hidden return line that pumps water up to the upper pond. This will be a cool feature !!!

I have already zoned out the layout to display different points along the GN line with many industries too. This may be my final layout, so I want it to have EVERYTHING I've ever wanted to have on my want list. The minimum dimensions would be 75 feet by 100 feet, but I'm hoping for something larger. It will be a large track plan because many trains I will be running will be over 100 feet long







Even my full lenght Empire Builder lists in around 50 feet long !!! The biggest cost will be in how I build the sides to elevate the grade. Rocks and fill will be cheap as I can get that from folks building houses or from farmers getting rocks out of their fields, etc. So for now, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to build the sides of the layout at the cheapest cost. Anyone have any good ideas









More to post later, just thought I'd ask the question on the side building.

Rocky


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Of course the cheapest way will be "donated" rocks, but that means the angle of the sides of your built up part will depend on the rocks you get. 

The "cleanest" look, and what will look like an indoor layout, e.g. nice and neat and clean-cut, is build up the raised area with concrete blocks and make basically a retaining wall. 

Landscape block is easier, more costly, and again, harder to get "Vertical" sides. 

Get some cheap laborers and build up your 3' wall... my advice. You will still need to find cheap fill dirt. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I used railroad ties for a small retaining wall along the backend of my layout. The railroad ties are definately cheaper, but you do have to be picky. Some of those ties are pretty beat up. I also found it hard to get a good straight wall with the old ties, because some werent perfectly straight. The character of the ties does add to the character of the layout, I think. 

Also, to cut the ties. I used a chainsaw. Worked pretty good. Haqrd to get a prefectly straight cut, but again the wood isnt straight so adds to the character.

If you want a nice clean look, then the landscape blocks are definately the way to go. Maybe build the roadbed, then keep an eye on sales for block. I found a good price on block at my local Menards a few years back, however it was in the middle of winter. So you might have to wait a while to get your deal.


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Robert, 

Could I suggest something that I have seen used elsewhere? The corners are made from Breeze Blocks mortered together and railway sleepers provide the longitudinal spans between them. 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That would be "cinder blocks" here in the US... Ralph are you indicating just concrete blocks, or specifically what you said, blocks made from cinders/fly ash ? 

Greg


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

These.... 

http://www.heidelbergcement.com/uk/...mation.htm

regards 

ralph


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would for go the RR ties as they will eventually be infested with termites. I Use to use them but now use the landscaping blocks and look and work quit well. Depending on the the size you buy the price is not to bad. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So a specialized and thermally insulated block only made in england? Which obviously must cost much more than our standard concrete block? 

Insulating the walls of an elevated layout? Using block that is impervious to moisture? 

Quote: " I know about what I want to do to build it, but finding the right (and cheapest way to do it) to build the layout is the question. " 

Ralph, I just don't know what to make of suggestions like this... smfh... 

Greg


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

OK...some thoughts....75' x 100'....THREE feet high? WOOF!!!! Maybe just parts of it are 3' high...remember, you're planning on a SG 1/29th layout...and even with a 100' side, the most you can climb is 2' up. You said LONG trains...well, that's hard...real hard on even a 1% grade...but doable. 2%...with enough engines. 3%...OMG...you're gonna need real helper engines and a LOTTA power to the rails.


So...some thoughts...75'x100'... In your mind is your layout to be a la Marty...a park-like layout....or is it to be an AROUND the edge of the yard layout? Or is it gonna be separate raised seconds tied together my mainline between them? Or maybe something different.


a.. If it's park-like in your mind...buy a used loader first, because you're gonna move a LOT of dirt...and you're gonna get into serious grading and lot selection issues before you start. You'll want to start with a lot that has a big hump on it already, because you don't want to build a 75'x100'x3' raised hump...that's over 800 cubic yards of dirt to move in if everything is to be over 3' high. OK...the point here is, the selection of the lot the house is on is gonna be hyper important.

b. Now, if the ideal is an around the edge of the yard layout...you'll obviously need less dirt...and it's have less square footage...meaning LESS weeding/yard work. If it's built against a fence, you have a natural view stop...then again, you can't take the "Is it real" photos like Marty does. You do NOT need a wall around the whole layout to make it 3' high...nor did you with the park-like setting. You can slope the dirt 1:1 or 1:2 down to the interior of the yard.


c. I've seen several layouts that had several smaller park-like settings...walled or rocked on the edges...tied together with tracks on trestles...or tracks on ledges...or tracks on the side of a sloping hill. Each of the park-like settings is mostly flat and was where the industries/towns were...and the detailing is higher. Between them is just mainline. In a 75'x100' area, you could easily put in six or seven "industry areas" each 3' high...and maybe one LONG skinny one that was a big yard. This approach also has the benefit of being able to be built in phases...one flat park-like setting at a time....but since you have a water feature in your mind, you'll need to do a rough design for the whole thing that properly integrates that water feature if the water feature is to be large.


d. Something different...in my mind, the layout that Richard Smith is building is different. It's the one that built on LONG benchwork pieces, like an indoor layout, cept outdoors. It's up at 3' like you want it...and the layout top contains real outdoor material...rock and stone and dirt. You could actually build hundreds of feet of layout this way and detail it to your hearts content...without all the bending and stooping and yard work issues. It sounds expensive, but rock and block and pipe (for watering) and dirt...aren't cheap either...nor are the tools you need to move a lot of dirt. 


Personally, I think you need to think about this stuff before you buy a house/lot...because each is so unique where you're moving that your solution space is going to be limited by that more than anything else. Some lots will take to the Marty design...some to the around the edge design...some will be dead flat, so raised sections mean a lot of material movement. Some will be on a slope that makes 2% max grades really hard to incorporate.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

This outside the box. Don't build a layout, build a RR.


----------



## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

Ok and now some answers to Mikey's questions ... 
The layout - henceforth, railway, will be constructed along the outer area of the property with the middle area of the back yard being open for BBQs, family get togethers, etc. So there will have to be two walls on each side of the layout "shelf" if you want to call it that. I may use the house wall as an outer wall as the layout runs along the house and where the door will be coming out of the basement, I will put a swing up bridge for ease of going in and out of the house. This bridge will have to be hooked to the CTC panel to automatically block trains from entering that section where the bridge will be therefor avoiding any MLS type accidents of which we have seen over the years







But now I am feverishly scetching a psudo type layout plan (not to scale mind you) of my rough ideas and how I would plan to build my RAILWAY[/b] as Marty has said. RR ties would be the cheaper way to go, and may look nice if I can find good ones, but bugs is a thing too - yet they make pesticides for that problem. So hopefully I can finish it up in the next couple hours and post it B-4 chat time tonight. 


Rocky


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg.... 

There are times when I wonder if you really look at things.... Hanson are an international company and Thermolite is a international product. I used them on my design for the Seattle installation and they were part and parcel of any of the designs coming out of the St Paul office (while it existed). I checked with the on-line costing system and they are available for £0.86p each at bulk rate (100+). They are manufactured in the US by the the Heidelberg Cement company (formally the Lehigh Cement company). 

They are: 440mm x 215mm x 100mm and weigh less than a kilogramme each. This means that my 11 year old son can lift and carry them into position. They are easy to saw with hand tools with a carbide blade and can be easily "distressed" with yoghourt etc to promote moss and fern growth. All in All a pleasant building material. 

We live in a global society. Did you honestly think that I would recommend something that was not easily available in the US??? 

For shame on you. 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Just sitting here....LMAOROTF. Global society...for block walls....WOOF!!!! Loving it. But under a KG each...second WOOF! Wish I'd known about these five years ago.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GN_Rocky on 22 May 2011 05:29 PM 
Ok and now some answers to Mikey's questions ... 
The layout - henceforth, railway, will be constructed along the outer area of the property with the middle area of the back yard being open for BBQs, family get togethers, etc. So there will have to be two walls on each side of the layout "shelf" if you want to call it that. I may use the house wall as an outer wall as the layout runs along the house and where the door will be coming out of the basement, I will put a swing up bridge for ease of going in and out of the house. This bridge will have to be hooked to the CTC panel to automatically block trains from entering that section where the bridge will be therefor avoiding any MLS type accidents of which we have seen over the years







But now I am feverishly scetching a psudo type layout plan (not to scale mind you) of my rough ideas and how I would plan to build my RAILWAY[/b] as Marty has said. RR ties would be the cheaper way to go, and may look nice if I can find good ones, but bugs is a thing too - yet they make pesticides for that problem. So hopefully I can finish it up in the next couple hours and post it B-4 chat time tonight. 


Rocky

Questions...didn't have no stinkin' questions...just "thoughts". 

OK...given your description, it sounds like you've picked the house and yard...and it's an around the edge of the yard design you want. Cool...leaves LOTS of ground for the grandkids to run around...and after the trains. I agree with Marty...design a RR...your RR. I did that when I was in Hawaii for my yard...and frankly, the design that came out was much more satisfying than the design I'm actually building. BUT...it would have taken a LOT MORE maintenance, so it got scrapped. I had mine to mill to plant to factory kind of linkages for ore. I had mountainside logging site to mill to factory to lumber yard to factory linkages for wood. I had deliveries to smaller industries. I had interchange yards to other RRs. Heck...I had a whole year to dream up my RR cause I was stuck in a condo in Hawaii...but it turned out, after looking at my real yard I became convinced a 100' x 150' layout was just too much to maintain at my age.


OH...from personal experience...RR ties may be the cheaper way to go until you consider your back (HEAVY is an understatement...these are 30-year-old things to move, not 50-year-old things to move)...and the $400 saw/blade you need to buy to cut the damn things. 


But...dream and have fun.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

entire rebuttal post to Ralph deleted.

Rocky, after looking at costs, I think just 16 x 8 x 8 concrete block would be the cheapest for your "outer perimeter"... I agree those landscape blocks can get very expensive.

Greg


----------



## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

Ok, prices are going to differ not only from between US and GB, but also between say CA and GA too. 
Different areas of the country will have different pricing depending on store, availibility and shipping to that store. Actual price right now is not the issue. I am trying to get ideas at this time. Deb and I are really zeroing in on one house that has most of what we are looking for. And with this house, the best place to put the layout will be in the front yard, not the back yard. Also which will be a challange is that this dront yard is sloped from the driveway to the outer edge of the property. This has good as well as bad implications. One of which will be that I won't need as much materials to build the walls, but it will mean that I may have to do some grading as well and this will bring a challange. One other nice thing is that when completed, we can sit on the front porch and run trains from there via R/C







I am waiting for a call back from the realtor to get more info on the house such as room sizes and property dimensions. If all seems ok, we will send Deb's Mom out with the camara to get more pictures and if that looks good, then next month we can go up and look for ourselves. We are kinda stuck down here until the estate sale runs and is over and also as our team fights it's way to the Stanley Cup - which we will get this year







So about the 2nd or 3rd week of June we will go up and do our looking. My uncle has some paperwork for me to sign thus to release funds from the estate, so funding should be in place by the time we go up. It's just a matter of time now I think, but planning a layout seems to help me pass the time outside setting up Mom's for the sale and watchin' our guys fight their way to the championship. I will need to make a new plan for a layout based on pictures I have of this house. I think my old plan may apply, but the mountains and water features will be on the oppisite side of the layout from where first planned. Well, back to work agaiin !!!


Rocky


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, looking forwards to seeing what you will build. Won't it be great to not have to live with R1 curves Rocky? 

Greg


----------



## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

Ahhh, a layout without R1 curves, it'd be like the old days again, but even better !!!! 
I believe that my new Min. curve for the mainline withh be the LGB 18000 series - 14 ft diameter with some sweeping ART 20 foot curves. As I look at the yard on the house, I see some areas of landscaping they did that I will need to navigate around, so the track plan may not be square or rectangular. Also a challange. Either way, I'll be keeping the chainsaw from Mom's estate to cut the RR ties.


Rocky


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My "inner loop" is 10 foot, but the outer loop is almost all 14 foot, and it does make a big difference. Even with my crazy grades, 50 car trains run fine, and there is a hairpin 180 degree curve (the R. J. DeBerg memorial curve) of just under 10 foot. 

Your dreams of "big iron" are going to come to fruition! 

Greg


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote: 

entire rebuttal post to Ralph deleted. 

Unquote: 

Why? What is wrong with me recommending a US made product to someone living in the US? I can buy the same product in my local builders merchant, (Wickes), imported from the US for a not unreasonable sum of £1.22p per block or as I stated above £0.88p per block at bulk rate. I have no idea how much they cost in the US -but as you will have noticed the Hanson web site detected a England based ISP server and directed me to the England & Wales Buildings Regulations page -hence the URL re-direction to that page in the post above. Scotland and Northern Ireland Building Regulations are different. 

Even though I am now retired I was always aware of the fact that what I wrote and said in any of the forums that I posted on was from me and reflected on me as a professional person -the information given would be as expected from the European Director of Design and Installation to a customer. Accurate , Factual and Concise. I still do so. 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ralph, not everyone in the US is enamored with reading prices in euros. 

"I used them on my design for the Seattle installation and they were part and parcel of any of the designs coming out of the St Paul office (while it existed). I checked with the on-line costing system and they are available for £0.86p each at bulk rate (100+)." 

So, it's clear what you said above... is the price you quoted the price in the US or the price in England. If it's in England, then it's even LESS relevant and informative. 

In any case, my point was not to get a lecture on your career, but that the price is quite a bit higher for something too small, and Rocky asked in the first post about less expensive. 

So, while it might be a technological wonder in terms of lightweight, insulating brick, it's probably too expensive for this application. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

75' x 100' ??? Thats bigger than my entire property!...grumble grumble grumble


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic. 

5 acre. Lots are cheap in florida


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote: 

Ralph, not everyone in the US is enamored with reading prices in euros. 

Unquote: 

Now here Greg you have got me really puzzled. I know that I am just a Poor Deaf, Diabetic former inhabitant of a 3rd World Country -but I cannot see anywhere where I have quoted a price in EUROS, infact as far as I know the currency still used in the UK is POUNDS STERLING? As I stated before the Hanson Website detects the country of origin ISP and (of course) does a currency change. I have queried family for you on your behalf and the block in question is: 

A$ 1.38 (Cairns) 
NZ$ 1.88 (Napier) -but the minimum order is 1,000 
CA$ 1.49 (Medicine Hat) 
$ 1.49 (Marthas Vineyard) -again minimum order is 1,000 
$ 1.42 (Walnut Creek) 

Amazing what you can do with a Blackberry in the middle of the Peak District while sat on a double bed isn't it? 

regards 

ralph


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rocky,

What about building up benchwork covered with the 1/2" x 1/2" screening ala Richard Smith? Seems like lumber would be a lot cheaper for start up and you don't need to worry about truckloads of fill. Just a thought. I guess critters under the benchwork need to be considered. 

Ralph, I had no problems converting pounds sterling to US Dollars. Thanks for not quoting it in Rupees, those darn divide by 45's are hard!! Kidding.. I had no idea about the product you mentioned and may need to consider that for my own future projects. Thanks!


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, 

This snippet is from http://www.wis.co.uk/andy/16mm/trackconstruction.html  about 1/2 way down. 

Testimonials about track laying methods 
My line has approx. 90 yds of Peco SM32 which has been in place for 11 years now. It is pinned using 1" Brass pins through roofing felt into Thermalite block. The odd pin has risen slightly in that time otherwise no problems. Regular hosing down gets rid of muck etc. Also, I had no problem with 6ft radius curves - the track is designed to just that. Happy tracklaying, 
Alan Smith 

I have also seen them carved into buildings for layouts -but this is about as extreme as it gets! 

http://www.wessexsculptors.co.uk/Workshops.htm  

I think that Fondant Icing and Marchpane are more my material though -if I make a mistake I can always eat it!!! 

regards 

ralph


----------

