# DCC In G for A Newbie



## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Hello All,

I have recently started over in G Scale (after an unfortunate EBay Big Hauler's buy that turned out to be a junk parts set). I have acquired a USA Trains GE 44 Tonner (C&O 8522) as well as 2 Aristocraft SD45 High Hoods (N&W 1764 AND 2756), and finally 2 Aristocraft RS3's (One Undec and the other is RI 462). I have used Digitrax decoders for years in my HO Scale equipment, and was wondering if they are still a good choice for my new "DCC Ready" Aristo SD45's and RS3's. Also, with my SD45's will they operate the class lights or is that a seperate wiring project? And will the USA Trains 44 Tonner need to be hard wired for a decoder at a future date? I haven't been able to get the hoods off and I don't really know anyone locally in the Detroit area that works with DCC in Large Scale.

Also, while I am not a fan of the Digitrax system for control, would the CVP Products system (which I have a few years working with in HO) work well with the larger G Scale or it is preferred to stay on the Digitrax/NCE side of the house? Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, unfortunately not a good choice... they don't do well with erratic loads, and of course they do not have sound, at least in large scale. (yes you can add the soundbug). 

My best suggestion is to use the new QSI Titans, plug and play for your Aristo locos, and many new lighting outputs, although you will have to disconnect some of the lights, since Aristo lumps them all together. 

Please check my site on the QSI, and email me if I can be of help. 

I don't recommend the CVP system due to the lack of higher power boosters, and the menu system, plus I'm not sure it handles the higher valued CV's that some of the decoders take. 

Here is a link to my main DCC page:

*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>** 

Here's a page on the new Titan: http://www.elmassian.com...trong>

You will find specific installation information if you look under my Motive Power section, and then by Manufacturer, Aristo, USAT, etc.

I have to admit I'm a big fan of the Titan, it's been in development several years, is their second generation Motor/Sound decoder, and it has a ton of features, many unique.

I helped in the development and the beta testing. I also use Zimo in certain applications.

email me privately if you wish.

Greg*


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks, 


Like I said I have been so used to using Digitrax decoders in HO and haven't had a problem with their decoders and when I saw they offered the DG583AR I thought it would be a good fit. What DCC system would be recommended? I am planning right now a modular layout to take to some train shows, and while I have used both Digitrax and NCE, I really like the NCE system over the rather complicated Digitrax tethered and wireless throttle since you recommended the CVP Products system cannot handle the loads.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ive used the DG538AR--it's an excellent decoder of you don't want sound. It can be bought ready to plug into the aristo socket. I like them--smooth motor control and good wiring options, but as mentioned you would have to disconnect all the lights to get individual control. QSI will be plug and play with your aristo locos and it gives you sound and motor control, and control over individual lights if you want to disconnect the aristo stock wiring


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Thank you! I appreciate the info.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The NCE system is quite popular in the G market. It is rated at 10 AMPS.

Then try some different decoders, see what fits your needs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My personal choice was and is NCE for a number of reasons. Some of the European systems have a large number of additional features, although quite often they only work on their decoders. 

I run long trains, have steep inclines and run multiple locos in consists. Thus I need a rugged system that also has a booster of at least 10 amps. 

I don't think much of the budget systems, why try to save $200 on a system that you will buy only once?

So to me $650 for a complete 10 amp system with a radio (duplex) throttle is quite reasonable. I'd pay $1,000 for it. At this quality and feature level, there are ESU, Massoth, Zimo also.

I don't need a color display that washes out in sunlight, nor do I need a cute picture of my locomotive or cute animation on the screen... all I need to know is the loco number, speed step, and some function status.

I have run the "budget" systems and they seem to be missing features, or power, or have an arcane menu system.

You can read more on my site...

Greg


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

I use and also recommend the NCE 10amp radio set. Make sure you or NCE adjust track volts to 22-24 for best running. I like the combination power/sound decodes and use ESU, Massoth, QSI, and Zimo. IMO Zimo and ESU have better motor control but QSI has more US sound files available. I am also happy with Digitrax 5amp decoder w Phoenix sound. Greg E has great site and is very friendly and helpful. I reside in Toledo and looking to find others in G. alan


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks Greg. I actually ran across your site last night doing a search for information on the Aristo SD45's. I also read the Aristo SD45 Tips page put out by George Schreyer. Looks to be quite a lot of information to take in. I will have to look into the NCE 10 Amp set and see if that will fit my modular railroad needs. Thanks.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

TrainWatcher: 

For a modular system, you may want to consider the LGB MTS or Piko central stations along with their respective boosters ( as needed) and a Massoth Navigator ; user freindly, reliable, expandable, NMRA compliant, compatible with all NMRA compliant decoders. 

Mohammed 
http://www.allaboutlgb.com 
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The SD45 will also have a lot in common motor wise with the other 3 axle locos, so the E8 page, Dash 9 page will have more info. I don't currently own a SD45, but I do have the E8 and Dash 9, so the latter 2 may be more complete. 

Alan, the original QSI had problems with BEMF on at low speeds. You can turn that off. The new Titan has solved that issue completely and you can not only leave BEMF on all the time, but I even leave it on in consists, where "smart" people will tell you that it's imposssible. 

(of course when I started EVERYONE told me DCC outside was impossible !) 

Greg


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad to hear new QSI Titan is performing better at slow speed. I have the original QSI Aristo version and even with BEMF off it stutters. 

QSI is great sound option for plug n play Aristo and Bachmann engines. Digitrax is a good low cost alternative for power control. 

There are many options available for DCC which I like.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Alan, go to my youtube "gregeusa" and look at the QSI videos, I posted the original "Qou 2" and you can see the "herky-jerky" motion.. then take a look at the Dash 9 with the titan... it's smooth as butter. 

They actually found a flaw in how they were reading the BEMF, and they changed the algorithm... it was a strange thing because the problem was not where you would have expected it, in the hardware, it was actually in the firmware program. 

Sorry for the slight "diversion" 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When selecting a system, be sure to check max voltage (24 is good), and current (5 amps is too low for multiple engines, esp the SD-45's). 

Also check decoders for their ratings and whether the higher rating requires a heat sink. 

And if you visit other layouts, check DC compatibility. CV13 and 14 are used for this in my Zimo decoders as well as CV29. 

An example is the older MRC decoders have 21 volts max, and do not work on my analog setup. And if I use MTS serial interface with these, flashing lights just stay on all the time. Of course they were only $7.00 so I live with this!!


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By TrainWatcher on 25 Dec 2012 02:31 PM 
Hello All,

I have recently started over in G Scale (after an unfortunate EBay Big Hauler's buy that turned out to be a junk parts set). I have acquired a USA Trains GE 44 Tonner (C&O 8522) as well as 2 Aristocraft SD45 High Hoods (N&W 1764 AND 2756), and finally 2 Aristocraft RS3's (One Undec and the other is RI 462). I have used Digitrax decoders for years in my HO Scale equipment, and was wondering if they are still a good choice for my new "DCC Ready" Aristo SD45's and RS3's. Also, with my SD45's will they operate the class lights or is that a seperate wiring project? And will the USA Trains 44 Tonner need to be hard wired for a decoder at a future date? I haven't been able to get the hoods off and I don't really know anyone locally in the Detroit area that works with DCC in Large Scale.

Also, while I am not a fan of the Digitrax system for control, would the CVP Products system (which I have a few years working with in HO) work well with the larger G Scale or it is preferred to stay on the Digitrax/NCE side of the house? Thanks.


I have used a lot of decoders over the years. By far the best decoder for large scale is the Gold Maxi Lenz decoder with power backup. The one downside is that it is limited in currrent capasity so the larger load locomotives with a heavy load will likely cause it to shut down due to overheating unless you install a heat sync. Second best is the Zimo decoder. Third is ESU and it goes down rapidly from there.

Systems each have their best and no so best features. Any of them with the right power station (booster) wil work fine. I tend to run at 20.5 volts DCC, the higher the voltage the faster the locomotives will run at top speed.

Hope that helps,

Stan


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually MOST large scale runs at prototypical speeds at 20 volts. I found, however, that certain brands, notably Aristo, runs about 65 scale miles per hour at 20 volts on the rails, and that was too slow for my e8 passenger train, so I had my NCE modified at the factory for 24 volts. (particular example 3 axle diesels) 

MOST people will be happy at 20 to 21 volts, especially if you don't run passenger train speeds, or 3 axle Aristo diesels. 

A piece of advice from someone that wanted an answer right away, in simple terms: you need to think about WHAT you want to run and HOW you want to run before making a choice on a system. How many operators, their ability to use extensive menus, whether they read German well (some products are poorly translated to English), if the display has to operate in bright sunlight, etc. etc. etc. 

There's a lot of factors that you might not consider... because you don't know enough about how to use the system... Try to find a club or individual, and try it OUTDOORS... and look at more than one system. 

When comparing decoders, also compare apples to apples... Stan just gave a great vote to Lenz, and compared it to a Zimo, but the Lenz is motor only, and the Zimo is a much more cost effective motor and sound combined decoder. 

Greg 

p.s. Stan might mention that your opinion on voltage is influenced by the fact that you concentrate on narrow gauge 1:20.3 which is a completely different speed range than mainline and modern locomotives.


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Greg this is what I am shooting for:

- A Portable Railroad to take to various large train shows
- Roughly 8'x8' (64 feet squared) with an operating pit (4'x4'- 16 feet squared)
- 2 Operators plus a yard cab throttle, one per loop with a 2 (one on each side, opposing directions) with insulated crossovers and a small staging yard on one table. Yard cab works out a few cars to mix up trains.

While I like DC, I do not want all the pain of wiring such a large railroad that can get easily damaged while being transported. My thought was with adding DCC to the Aristo RS3's and USAT GE 44 Ton (as I am seeing a pattern of problems starting to pop up with these High Hood SD45's and I'd rather not see them destroyed while trying to figure out how to install a DCC Decoder properly [of right amperage]). Now, if I was to JUST do the RS3's could they handle the Digitrax decoder? I mean I am not looking for all the bells and whistles here, just something basic, as I am getting really confused with all this new terminology and products (Zimo, etc) I have never even worked with before.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, sounds great, I'd run 8 to 10 amps so you can have 3 separate trains and enough juice to run 2 locos on the head of a train if you want. 

I have never seen problems with the SD45's, one of the most reliable and good working locos ever... please let me know what problems you think they have (they have a socket just like the RS-3).. The digitrax will work in all Aristo locos with the socket. I like sound so no Digitrax for me. I still think the QSI is a great selection for you, but they are $200 each like the Zimo et. al... maybe you want something a bit less expensive? By the way, the NCE system also comes with a D408 decoder that will handle your 44 tonner just fine, since it has no socket. 

What is your decoder budget? 

Greg


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

My budget is small, maybe $50-$100 per month at the moment. The SD45's I just see as needing a lot of room to run (8' diameter curves = a circle of track for my planned 8'x8' operating space), and if I am going to have children (ages 6+) "running trains" (speed modified to not race or be able to fly off the track) I don't really want to have the SD45's have an accident (fall off a table, get broken, etc as they don't make the high hood version anymore. And I already accidentally broke the airline on the back of the LH air tank off and repaired it). At my planning stages right now, I am looking at roughly dropping $300 into sectional aluminum track (going the Micro Engineering route), as well as the rental fees at shows for 4 tables (unless those are purchased and will carry portable scenery and structures), I hope that really people have fun and enjoy trains as much as I do. 

Now, another question is how to hardwire my USAT 44 tonner.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo is making high hoods again, delivery in January I think. 

With DCC you can limit the top speed easily, just a simple setting. 

Hardwire is not tough... look at my "quick and dirty" install on my site... look under motive power.... USAT.... you will see a page labelled quick and dirty DCC install. 

You can do it without even cutting wires or soldering anything except a couple of connectors to the decoder. 

will take you longer to remove the shell than to wire it. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When I install the Zimo decoder, I usually remove the manufacturers boards as I activate many features of the decoder such as engineer light is only on when the engine is not moving and turns off when moving, individual light controls, and adding ditch or gyro light controls. The MX695 decoder even has 4 servo controls which can be used for uncoupling, or making a door open, plus for the SD45, smoke fan and heater element controls.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess the first thing that needs to be sorted out is how much will he spend on a decoder and/or does he want sound? 

If money is tight and/or no sound, we should not be recommending $200 motor and sound decoders 

(now I am biased, I'd rather outfit the locos slower and put in the sound, I think the kids will love it and enjoy it more, but I'm biased) 

So, maybe before we get into the benefits of plug and play, and who has the best sound libraries, and who wants to use servos, maybe we owe it to the OP to follow his desires. 

Greg


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## TrainWatcher (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks Greg. At this current point in time I am not seeking sound in any of my locomotives for the shows. While I do like sound equipped locomotives, after awhile the sound gets to be annoying, much more so than if you were on an actual GE 44 tonner (I know because I volunteer at a railroad museum that owns 2 GE 44 tonners, Western Maryland 75 and D&M 10). And I don't think kids really care what they are running as long as the run trains. I am 1/2 tempted to forget the DCC operations (for the time being) and just do the old school DC blockwire and call it good for portable, as costs for track, cars (I have a few), and other things are really adding up.


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