# USRA hopper car?



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Does anyone make a model of the USRA coal hopper car in 1/29th or 1/32nd scale? I found a car that looks like it might be one that's made by Piko, but I'm not sure if that's what it is.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The two Piko hoppers are these: 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=3828 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=3831


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Amber 

The Piko [formerly MDC] 2 bay 50T hoppers are "sort of" 1:32, actually about 1:30 [10mm] scale. They have both straight ribbed and offset side versions. In addition Aristo makes a very nice 2 bay in 1:29 that is very close to correct and has much better detail. I think it is only done as an offset side car. The MDC cars regularly turn up on EvilBay at the $35-$50 price range.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a model of the USRA coal hopper car in 1/29th or 1/32nd scale
Amber, 

Didn't they come in 55-ton, 80-ton and 100-ton variants? The 55-ton has two bays and the 100-ton has 4 ? I believe Aristo and USATrains both make big hoppers in 1/29th. (Check the ads in Garden Railways Magazine.) 

MDC used to make a 2-bay hopper in 1/32nd, and someone bought the moulds and is producing new ones (I think.) I used one as an EBT 2-bay with my old 1:22.5 Bachmann 3-bay hoppers. 

There is also an old LGB 2-bay hopper, and I think Clem at Warrior Run had a few he got used. Give him a call.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete 

USRA standard designs were for 50 [or 55] ton 2 bay hoppers and a 70T 3 bay. USRA never did standard designs for larger hoppers. There WERE standard designs from manufacturers such as Bethlehem Steel car Co and pressed stedel car Company purchased by the thousands. At one point there was a collaborative project among PRR/N&W/C&O to produce a standard 80T or 100T quad hopper, but no final design was adopted by all three. 

LGB, USAT, Bachmann, and MTH all have 3 or 4 bay hopper cars, in [pick a scale]. The MTH quads are a design from the mid 1960s. 

USAT 3bay ==> http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainshoppers.html 

Aristo 2 bay ==> http://www.elmassian.com/trains/rol...tips/aristo-rolling-stock/2-bay-offset-hopper 

Aristo 3 bay ==> http://www.elmassian.com/trains/rol...on-3-bay-hopper/100-ton-3-bay-hopper-vignette 

Eastern Railways had Samhongsa produce some excellent 1:32 brass modes of the USRA design of about 1918. The lettering schemes are primarily from the 1920s-30s.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

One can also go to the database at 
http://www.gbdb.info 
and type hopper into the search field. 
That will bring up a wide variety of what's available in Large Scale. 

Knut


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Piko, Mainline America both make and sell the smooth sided 2 bay hopper as was previously sold as MDC or Roundhouse.

Aristo Craft has a slightly larger 2 bay hopper.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mainline-Am...2a1d10bbb8 



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piko-G-Scale-Train-1-22-5-Hopper-New-York-Central-/190674666906?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2c6518859a


http://www.ebay.com/itm/AristoCraft...53eb04b924


http://www.ebay.com/itm/MDC-G-Scale...5893bc8800


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roundhouse-...4d008d9eb0


Below is the link to the various Hoppers I have


http://www.carsntrains.com/MDC%202%...20Page.htm


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I believe that the ribbed side hopper with the bottom hatches close together is the one that comes closest to the USRA 55 ton pattern. I had quite a lot of HO scale 2 bay hoppers of various types, but the USRA pattern is my favorite, along with the 2 bay fish belly hoppers.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber, when U locate 2-bay rib, or channel side, straight-sill, or fish-belly hoppers in 1/29 let me know, I'd like 
about 40 of them... The old MDC, now PIKO is just too small and lacks detail... I've built 4 of them, but I'm not 
up for building 36 more... I was real disappointed when AC came out with their 2-bay in the offset side series...
Paul R...


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul 

At this point, the LGB Rib side 2 bay hopper is your only choice. 

They have pretty good detail and are very close in size to the Aristo Craft 1/29th scale 2 bay hopper


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 May 2012 09:23 AM 
Paul 

At this point, the LGB Rib side 2 bay hopper is your only choice. 

They have pretty good detail and are very close in size to the Aristo Craft 1/29th scale 2 bay hopper 
You mean the LGB 4x76x type?
Like this one:
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2548


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I have to wonder why LGB puts archbar trucks on a hopper car like this one. They should at least be Andrews trucks, or Vulcan, or Bettendorf trucks.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Not very many rib side 2 bay hoppers on flea bay today...


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Amber 

The short answer is [IIRC] because at the time it was initially released it was a "narrow gauge car" like EBT or D&RGW. "krs" probably knows the real production history. LGB, like most toy train manufacturers [as opposed to some scale models] would/will put any paint scheme on any car if it will SELL. Now that MTH is doing a lot of HO, they actually assign a different [and identified] number series to cars that are painted in any scheme that is not prototypical correct for that car. 

Given that they do make Bettendorf friction bearing trucks one would think that they could have updated for the more modern standard gauge paint schemes.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes KRS, that is the type I mean.

For 2 bay ribed hoppers, that and the big 1:20.3 Bachmann 2 bay hoppers are pretty much it.

Myself, I don't feel the MDC hoppers are that small compared to the Aristo Craft 2 bay hoppers.

Even when run together on the same train, there are very little differences in dimension.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a coal train of mine with mostly MDC hoppers in tow. 

The Aristo Craft 2 bay Hopper P&WV is 3rd in line. 

The bright yellow Peabody hopper is a LGB car. 

The last car in line is 3 bay Bachmann. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyZk7H_TbMs&feature=plcp


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 May 2012 11:00 AM 

Myself, I don't feel the MDC hoppers are that small compared to the Aristo Craft 2 bay hoppers.
Even when run together on the same train, there are very little differences in dimension. 


Greg has a couple of pictures on his website comparing Aristocraft and MDC hoppers:


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is what I'm looking for, an I think what Amber has in mind too... I rejected the LGB car when they came out with it
because its a classic narrow guage style hopper, so the archbars would be correct... The MDC has the right configuration, 
but is 1 1/2 inches shorter than the AC 2-bay hopper, and just looks too short to me, its about 3/8 narrower too, I couild 
live with that... Would have loved to been able to use them, back several years ago when MDC thru in the towel I was 
offered those things, in quantity for $10 a copy... Here is an old pic of one of the ones I cobbled up out of old B-mann 
3 bay hoppers, it works for me, but is far to much work involved to make a whole bunch of them, looking for something 
resembling this in straight sill or fishbelly...
Paul R...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

From what I can see here, it looks like the MDC car has the lower end of the slope sheets closer together, making it a slightly shorter car. I would say that the MDC car would be based on an older design, more like the USRA 2 bay hopper car. The Aristo car seems like a later design, when they were increasing the capacity up from 55 tons.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, that Western Maryland car is the type I would be looking for. These could probably be back-dated to the vertical brakestaff type without too much problem. Then, the archbar trucks wouldn't be so out of place. I think Andrews trucks would also be appropriate for the time period, post WW1. It would probably also be good for pre WW1 period.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Think what Ur probably looking for is the early type car which was the channel side version, these held sway until the mid twentys it seems, 
then ribsides became the favored way of making them, (probably cheaper)... Then in the 30s they went to the fishbelly design to get the 
tonnage increase from 50 to 55 tons per car... 
Paul R...


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe Amber is correct regarding the size variations. The Aristo Craft car os not a 55 ton hopper. It is larger.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Randy / Amber 

The Aristo car is probably "rated" as 55T. The trick with open coal hoppers and gondolas is that the railroads rated them in different ways, and because particular lines typically had specific types of coal particular to the coal seams of the region served a car that was rated for 50 tons on one line might be rated for 55 tons on another. 

I commend to all interested in the subject the following articles from a series of soft cover volumes called The Railway Prototype Cyclopedia 

Vol 1, p82-96: 1935 A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars -Part 1 by Ed Hawkins 

The ubiquitous workhorse of the coal hauling roads, the 33' 
inside length offset hopper was truly a common car. The article 
discusses the features and the differences of the 50-ton A.A.R. 
Standard and Alternate Standard designs as well as one 
nonstandard design used mainly by Illinois Central. Numerous 
photographs are presented as well as a four page roster of 
approximately 127,000 cars built from 1934 to 1960. 

Vol 2, p83-96: 1935: A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars - Part 2 by Ed Hawkins 

Part 2 of the 1935 A.A.R. twin offset hopper series features a 
number of eastern roads that owned these cars, including B&O, 
BAR, BM, CNJ/CRP, D&H, Erie, LNE, Reading, and South 
Buffalo. 

Vol 4, p86-96: 1935 A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars - Part 3 by Ed Hawkins 

The series is continued with 50- and 60-ton cars of the A.A.R. 
Standard and Alternate Standard twin offset design used by 
railroads of the Appalachian region, including the C&O, B&LE, 
C&I, Montour, P&S, P&WV, and W&LE. 

Vol 8, p60-74: 1935 A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars - Part 4 by Ed Hawkins 

Continuing the series of 1935 A.A.R. twin offset-side hopper cars 
produced for 25 years (1936 to 1960), this edition presents cars of 
this type built for southeastern roads. Examples include A.A.R. 
Standard and Alternate Standard cars as well as "non-standard" 
cars having 33' inside length. Representative builder's and inservice 
photos are shown of the numerous southeastern roads 
owning cars of this general description. This includes the 
Louisville & Nashville Railroad, which had more than 19,000 cars 
of various configurations. 

Vol 9, p44-60: 1935 A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars - Part 5 by Ed Hawkins 

Continuing the series of 1935 A.A.R. twin offset-side hopper cars 
produced for 25 years (1936 to 1960), this edition presents cars of 
this type built for Midwestern roads. Examples include A.A.R. 
Standard and Alternate Standard cars as well as "non-standard" 
cars having 33' inside length. Representative builder's and inservice 
photos are shown of the numerous Midwestern roads 
owning cars of this general description. 

Vol 13, p102-105: 1935 A.A.R. 50-ton Hopper Cars - Part 6 by Ed Hawkins 

The author continues his series on the A.A.R. twin offset hopper 
cars by discussing and illustrating the cars owned by the Santa 
Fe and Northern Pacific railroads. 

Vol 5, p59-77: 1926/1929 A.R.A. 70-ton Hopper Cars by Ed Hawkins 

In 1926, the A.R.A. developed a preliminary design for a 70-ton 
quadruple hopper car with offset-side panels. The Baltimore & 
Ohio owned 7,000 cars built to this design. In 1929 the design 
was modified and approved by the A.R.A. as a standard design for 
70-ton quadruple hopper cars. A number of roads had cars built 
that generally conformed to the 1929 design. This article presents 
the primary differences in the two designs, a detailed roster, and 
time-line chart for the cars as they were in service through the 
1950s and later. 

Vol 14, p99-105: 1926/1929 A.R.A. Quadruple Hoppers Addendum by Ed Hawkins 

Presented in the addendum are additional in-service photos that 
have been acquired since the publication of the original article in 
Volume 5. These include cars for original owners B&O, C&O, Erie, 
K.C.S. (a later all-welded version), MILW, and M.P., as well as mid 
to late 1950s second-hand owners Montour and Norfolk 
Southern, the latter of which leased cars with extended sides for 
wood chip service. Also included is an updated roster and ORER 
time-line table. 

Vol 3, p84-96: Rodger-Hart 70-Ton Ballast Cars by Pat Wider 

The Rodger-Hart Ballast Car Company designed a 70-ton open 
hopper with side discharge openings with the primary purpose of 
hauling ballast. However, these cars were used in various other 
types of service including hauling bituminous coal. The cars were 
built by American Car & Foundry spanning a 24 year period. The 
article includes a substantial number of AC&F builder's photos 
and paint/lettering data from the original bill of materials. A 
roster is provided that provides details such as the type of trucks 
used on each series. 

HAPPY RESEARCH


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Jim

To carry the variation theme another step further, I found this listing within the Alaska RR list of freight cars.

The Alaska Railroad has rostered a variety of hoppers over the years. On the 1931 Equipment Register 12A there is only reference to Coal Cars not hoppers. I believe these were Hart Convertible Gons dedicated to coal service.
On Equipment Register 12G of 1963 there were four different number series of Twin Hoppers. At the Museum of Alaska Transportation and Industry is Hopper 60432 which through the weathered paint shows original number 6043 in white. This car was dedicated to the Alaska Railroad Power Plant in Healy and thus made the short trip from the Suntrana Tipple to the ARR power plant along side the main line in the Healy Yard.
There were only five cars in the series 6041 - 6045 as of 1963 and they were rated at 100000 lbs or 50 ton. *The car body is 30'8" long and 10'10" high with internal capacity of 1817 cu ft.* Modelers note: Stewart Hobbies Fishbelly 55 ton 6 panel 2 Bay Hopper in HO is a dead ringer for 6043. Accurail also produces a very nice kit for the 2500 Series USRA Twin Hopper that matches this car.

Prepared by Pat Durand

http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/Hoppers.html


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

Here is a video taken by Mac Beard of the C&O HS on the IE&W in April. The hoppers are all MDC cars modified by MLS member Mike Oates with Accucraft trucks, Kadee body mounted 1836 couplers, and custom lettering provided by Stan Cederleaf. Mike also added heap shields on the ends of some cars, replaced the ratchet brake levers with proper power brake wheels and AB brake system [air reservoir, triple valve, and brake cylinder] on the B end of each car. The numbers and lettering style are correct for each car series represented and Mike weathered each of the cars. The locomotive is an Aster Berkshire modified to represent on of the Pere Marquette 2-8-4s that came to the C&O. The C&O caboose is a custom model done by Ross Schlabach. 

==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_zI3ZRqtWw&feature=youtu.be 


Intruding on our C&O event is Jon Kling's K-27 on some test runs.He was doing performance comparisons to his coal fired K-28.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Great video Jim 

Thanks for posting


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the C&O had some 36 ft IL offset side 2-bay hoppers, but they were 
only rated at 50 tons, guess larger size isn't always the controlling factor in carrying capacity... Wouldn't think U'd 
want to go much further than 55 tons in a 2-bay, be crowding the 3-bay's territory...
Paul R...


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I got a good look at the Piko 2 bay rib side hopper car at a hobby shop today. That car looks about as close to the USRA design as I'm likely to find. Now the question is, what scale is the Piko car? 
Oh, I found the answer to the scale question at the beginning of this thread.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 08 May 2012 11:11 PM 
I got a good look at the Piko 2 bay rib side hopper car at a hobby shop today. That car looks about as close to the USRA design as I'm likely to find. Now the question is, what scale is the Piko car? 
Oh, I found the answer to the scale question at the beginning of this thread.  


What scale do you think the Piko hopper is?

If I compare it to the 1:20.3 Bachmann hopper and assume the bachmann is actually 1:20.3 scale, then the Piko hopper would scale out to 1:22.5 in length, but if I scale it out using a prototype, the scale is more like 1:36.
Prototype 2-bay hoppers of this type varied quite a bit in length, do you have specific type in mind?


And how long was that?

Knut


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

If Piko are still using the original MDC/Roundhouse dies, then the car is most likely nominal 1:32. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I know for sure that the hoppers in this set are manufactured used MDC molds: 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=1221 

I actually bought some of them when MDC was still around. 

But I don't know if the two-bay Piko hoppers we are talking about also used MDC molds. 

I didn't really do an exhaustive search for a possible prototype to at least scale out the length of the Piko 2-bay hoppers. 

Knut


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Knut, the hopper cars in your link there are iron ore cars, not coal cars. They're a short car for hauling very heavy loads. 
Dr Rivet said at the beginning of this thread that he thinks the MDC/ Piko hoppers are about 1/30th scale, nominally 1/32 scale. I like the looks of them better than the offset side hoppers. They're not the best detailed cars, but I'm sure the details could be improved with a bit of work, if a person wanted to do that. 
I would imagine that there are scale drawings for the various 2 bay rib side cars that could be used to detail these cars, or even build them from scratch from styrene, or brass if you're really ambitious.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

In trying to determine scale of a coal car, everyone needs to remember that 2 bay coal cars came in different lengths and heights. 

So the MDC / Roundhouse / Mainline America and Piko Coal Hoppers can be considered different scales depending on the lengths of the protoype.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm guessing that you would have to find the prototype for a certain car and then compare the model's dimensions to it. By the 1930s, there were probably a number of variations to the basic design of these rib side cars.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

FWIW, I have examined the 2 cars side by side, MDC and the Piko, they R virtually identical....
If Ur looking for a 1/32 hopper with 32-33 ft IL, the MDC-Piko is really the only reasonable 
alternative available... If Ur looking for a ribside 1/29 hopper, Ur SOL like me, the MDC-Piko 
R 1 1/2 inches too short for 33 ft 1/29 hopper...
Paul R...


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Paul 

They had better be the same... Piko is using the injection molding dies that they bought from MDC [or its owner at the time]. It is the same car.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Amber on 09 May 2012 09:01 AM 
Knut, the hopper cars in your link there are iron ore cars, not coal cars. They're a short car for hauling very heavy loads.

Yes, I know.
But some people call these cars hoppers as well and those cars were the only Piko "Hopper-type" cars where it was confirmed that the molds ended up with Piko.

I just wanted to be sure there is no confusion in what is being talked about with the Piko Hoppers.


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 09 May 2012 04:12 PM 
Paul 

They had better be the same... Piko is using the injection molding dies that they bought from MDC [or its owner at the time]. It is the same car. 
What I find a bit strange about that is that these Piko 2-bay hoppers are new items for 2012.
Piko introduced their Large Scale line in 2006, why would it take them six years to introduce these 2-bay hoppers if these are manufactured using the MDC molds.
Just asking....

Knut


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Knut 

IIRC the first American freight cars they produced were the ore car and reefer. The hoppers came later.Possibly they did not get all the dies at the same time; possibly they wanted to see how the market went. All pure speculation. It is unproductive to try to guess why any large scale manufacturer does what they do. Business is business.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, that the new 2012 Piko hoppers are manufactured using the old MDC molds is pure speculation as well, is it not?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Piko came out with the NYC Smooth side coal hopper a few years ago. 

Only recently did Piko come out with the Ribbed side coal hopper. 

I have both and I have over 40 of the original MDC / Roundhouse coal hoppers. 

The Piko coal hoppers are exactly the same as the MDC / Roundhouse coal hoppers.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

One thing I noticed about the LGB 2 bay rib side hopper is that the slope sheets go right to the top of the car, where the Piko slope sheets end with a vertical section above them to the top of the car. That makes me think that the LGB car is based on the EBT narrow gauge prototype, and not a standard gauge prototype.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I found a standard gauge prototype 2 bay USRA hopper car that That the LGB 2 bay rib side hopper car is a pretty close match to, I thought you might like to see these cars. They were used by the Copper Range Railroad to haul mine rock from the mines to the stamp mills 

 

 

You can see that the slope sheets go right up to the top of the car, like the LGB car.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Great Photos Amber 

I always like seeing pics of Coal Hoppers, even if they are hauling something other than coal.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

In the first picture, they're hauling stamp sand to use for raising the hight of the existing roadbed, according to the information that was with the picture. 
These are supposed to be a standard USRA design.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, would mind giving a brief overview of how you converted the Bachmann 3-bay to a 2-bay? (I know the thread is a little old but at least it's from this calendar year!)


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, Its been so long ago that I did those cars that at this point I'm afraid I have very little
remembrance of the construction details at this point... There were 4 of those cars, 
all done at the same time, the 2 bay as U saw, a 3 bay was done, as well as 4 bay, the 
a single bay was done from the leftover pieces from the 4 bay project...
These were done about 15 yrs ago, and the pics U see below were taken with a very 
early digital camera... I'm sure I approached the job much the same way I would now, 
cut the center section out of a std 3 bay unit at the appropriate places, machine the 
edges straight & square, glue the 2 ends back together with fish plates on the inside 
for support, the ends & slope sheet areas were modified to resemble modern hoppers, 
Bettendorf trucks installed, and detail added as appropriate to give the cars a more 
modern look...
Sorry I can't be of more help, but those things were done many yrs & models ago...
Paul R...


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, thanks for the reply to this long lost zombie thread. Just a couple questions you may be able to answer. Were these made from the Bachmann 3-bays of the type that are currently available? How do they come out height-wise (for 1/29) compared to an Aristo caboose for example? I'm wanting to build a string of the appropriate type hoppers (ribside) for an Aristo N&W Y4 Mallet. 

Your two and three bay hoppers pictured above look very much like the ones I've seen in pictures and videos from the '50s era (although usually being dragged by a couple of Y6s) except just a slightly different paint job.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

*As far as I know, that same hopper is still being made today, although I'm not certain *
*of that... They used to sell them in kit-form, U could pick them up in those days for $10-12*
*all day long at train shows... The 2 bay I did is almost identical in size to the Aristo 2-bay *
*wide-sider that Aristo came out with a few years ago, it is a little shorter however, but only *
*about 3/16 inch, height and width R almost identical... **I shot a couple of quick pics so U can*
*decide for Urself if it suits Ur needs.. **One it with the Aristo offset side, an one with an Aristo *
*cab tacked on...*
*Paul R... 

















*


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow! Thanks Paul! As far as I know, N&W did not run those offset side hoppers during the time of the Y4 (at least from photos and videos I've seen so far). I've got a book on order from Amazon to do a little research, but from what Iv'e seen, it's all straight rib sided two and three bay hoppers (and a bunch of 'em too). 

Thanks again for taking those fotos, I think that's gonna work for me.


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