# Mixing Steam and Grades



## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I am busy planning to build my first outdoor and first large scale layout in the spring. I plan on running Live steam only. Any guests will have to bring battery cars for sparkies.







The rail road will be a narrow gauge line the “Pittsburgh Lime Stone Rail Way” which services a lime stone quarry in the hills. This being said you would expect a grade on the way up to the quarry. Also it would benefit the PLS to incorporate a grade due to the terrain. I was thinking in the neighborhood of 1.5% no steeper. I have heard the advice of other about mixing grades and live steam, and even experienced it first hand with my Ruby under the Christmas tree. ( it showed me right where the high spot in the track was.







) Is it wrong of me to think that if I equip my Locos with RC that I could overcome the problems of having a grade by adjusting throttle and Johnson bar







To me real railroads had grade and the engineer adjusted his machine to traverse them. That is how I would prefer to operate. I know I won’t be able to set the throttle and go round and round should I feel lazy one afternoon, but I plan on building a level loop at one end for that. Ok guys, let me have it, I always enjoy what you have to say.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If you have grades, then a live steamer will need r/c controls to (a) increase the steam going uphill and (b) decrease steam downhill, and (c) to stop when required (just put the Johnson Bar in neutral.) 

If you have them, then grades up to 4% are no problem - assuming your loco is powerful enough to pull the train uphill. In practice, the uphill train would be empties and the downhill full wagons. My Ruby has problems hauling a train up Rog's 4% grade, but my C-19 does not.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Randy, 
A couple of things come to mind. 
How accessible will the track be to manually control your locos. 
If not very much, then r/c will be the answer. 
Also, I would say that it does all depend on what locos you will be using. 
Something with a big boiler so you can have lots of available steam, and small wheels will give you no problem. 
If you have a downhill grade, followed by an uphill and then level around to the downhill again, there is a good chance that you can set it to just get up the hill again. 
But if it is an uphill, followed by the downhill, you may find that to get over the hill it will scream down the other side too fast. 
Then of course you have to look at what radius, and where, they will be in relation to the grades. 
I would try and keep them separate as much as you can, as a steep grade on a curve might be hard work for your train. 
A geared loco should work just fine for you. 
Good luck, and let us know how the plans work out. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 21 Jan 2011 02:21 PM 


I am busy planning to build my first outdoor and first large scale layout in the spring. I plan on running Live steam only. Any guests will have to bring battery cars for sparkies.







The rail road will be a narrow gauge line the “Pittsburgh Lime Stone Rail Way” which services a lime stone quarry in the hills. This being said you would expect a grade on the way up to the quarry. Also it would benefit the PLS to incorporate a grade due to the terrain. I was thinking in the neighborhood of 1.5% no steeper. I have heard the advice of other about mixing grades and live steam, and even experienced it first hand with my Ruby under the Christmas tree. ( it showed me right where the high spot in the track was.







) Is it wrong of me to think that if I equip my Locos with RC that I could overcome the problems of having a grade by adjusting throttle and Johnson bar







To me real railroads had grade and the engineer adjusted his machine to traverse them. That is how I would prefer to operate. I know I won’t be able to set the throttle and go round and round should I feel lazy one afternoon, but I plan on building a level loop at one end for that. Ok guys, let me have it, I always enjoy what you have to say.


As long as you have R/C on it and someone is DRIVING the train, then there will be no problem. Live steam is not really designed for roundy-round play unless you have flat, level track. Any grades will need to have a real Engineer at the controls, whether walking/trotting/running along side the track to manhandle the controls or watching from a good vantage point with a Radio Control system for that control. Live Steam is for RUNNING trains, not WATCHING trains. If the Engineer (you) get distracted, the train will either come to a stop or wreck... pretty much guaranteed, one or the other.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Geared locos do OK on grades. Maybe 1.5% would be fine for a Shay. Purist live steamers, however, pride themselves on how level thier track is.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 21 Jan 2011 02:21 PM 


I am busy planning to build my first outdoor and first large scale layout in the spring. I plan on running Live steam only. Any guests will have to bring battery cars for sparkies.







The rail road will be a narrow gauge line the “Pittsburgh Lime Stone Rail Way” which services a lime stone quarry in the hills. This being said you would expect a grade on the way up to the quarry. Also it would benefit the PLS to incorporate a grade due to the terrain. I was thinking in the neighborhood of 1.5% no steeper. I have heard the advice of other about mixing grades and live steam, and even experienced it first hand with my Ruby under the Christmas tree. ( it showed me right where the high spot in the track was.







) Is it wrong of me to think that if I equip my Locos with RC that I could overcome the problems of having a grade by adjusting throttle and Johnson bar







To me real railroads had grade and the engineer adjusted his machine to traverse them. That is how I would prefer to operate. I know I won’t be able to set the throttle and go round and round should I feel lazy one afternoon, but I plan on building a level loop at one end for that. Ok guys, let me have it, I always enjoy what you have to say.

To me real railroads had grade and the engineer adjusted his machine to traverse them. That is how I would prefer to operate. 


Here is a video of Aster K4 doing just that on a .6% grade within the first minute and a half of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVB3Y4DgeA


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a rather extreme hill climb branch, mostly 4% grade with a short section of 8%. The Accucraft 3 cylinder hauls up the 4% grade with Spectrum 4 axle flats no problem. However, the climb starts off with the 8%, so I allow for a quick pause to build up steam before proceeding. Once the safety lets off steam, I know it's ready to go. After that, she is hands-free...full throttle, everything she's got! (till the end of the line) 
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gSq2jr9Axxiz5_J8l-F6Mg?feat=directlink 

More pics: http://picasaweb.google.com/101933014325341704583/TheRockwallCanyonRailroad?feat=directlinkhttp://picasaweb.google.com/1019...directlink 

The 2 cylinder shay also performed well on my layout, but my Ruby did not have enough steam production to maintain the full climb without stalling. The Ruby ran very well on my main line loops, which also includes some minimal grades. (not much over 1%)

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/s-4/open5.JPG

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/s-4/lil%20toot/lil8.jpg


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

My loop has approximately 0.5% grades, and my locomotives do pretty well without adjusting the throttle. I think RC control is almost mandatory for any grades over that. For your proposed application, I would think you would do fine with a geared locomotivewithout RC if you have ready access to the track, since geared locos are pretty slow. In any case, much of the appeal of live steam is actually being the engineer and manipulating the fire and throttle as well as keeping an eye on the water and fuel supplies. (don't forget lubrication) That being said, I think your idea of also having a level loop is good for days you feel a little lazy. You are in for a great time At the present time, I tend to prefer RC on rod locos and hands on on geared locos. That gives me the best of both worlds.!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Lots of good info in your reply guys. I'm excited now.

Pete, David, Semper and R Snyder : You guys seem to echo each other saying " yeah go nut as long as it's RC."









Bob and s-4 : You guys bring another interesting idea to the table. If you prefer hand operation you can still enjoy that using a Geared Loco.









I do prefer to operate rather than to turn the knob and let it go. However, I don't want to run along side the train all the time. There will be some less accessible parts of the track. I'm very happy to RC the locos, but there has always been a nagging in the back of my mind about the romance of my finger operating warm valves inside the cab. This is why I'm excited at the proposition of a geared engine too. Charles that was a great video showing just what the grade will do without adjustments.


My plan is for the Quarry to be at the top of the hill so empties will be climbing with loads descending. The plan is to have it be mainly point to point with a "hidden" revers loop at each end. The lower revers loop will encapsulate the engine facilities yard and finishing mills etc. and be the level loop for roundy round. I'm going to try and get some plans drawn today that I can post. Thanks for the help guys !


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy,
don't be shy when it comes to heavy grades. Mountain railroading with live steam is a lot of fun. Check out this video of my logging loco Betsy pulling a really heavy load up a 10% grade. I already had to replace the first set of gears, they were simply worn out! I think, the real Betsy from Madera Sugar Pine would have been proud of her little sister!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzNZj3rp3z4 

Regards


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the very best geared loco on the market is the Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay. Very powerful, longer run time. Mark Johnson pulled 45 cars with his and it did not hardly break a sweat. If you can score one of them, it will easily do the job you described.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Go for it!!! My railroad has a level loop of about 200 feet and an upper loop with 3 1/2 % grades. Do make the grade less on the curves, maybe a little more on the straights. I had a steep curve that I had to level out a bit to keep from stalling. Grades are definately easier with RC or geared engines. I did have one guest rod engine which was able to run the upper loop without any change in throttle or J-bar settings, can't remember what it was. Have fun and post some pics.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

One other thing to keep in mind is that live steamers tend to drip oily water on the track thereby reducing traction and causing slippage. Not an insurmountable problem to be sure, but you may need to wipe the track down periodically during ops.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 22 Jan 2011 06:37 PM 
One other thing to keep in mind is that live steamers tend to drip oily water on the track thereby reducing traction and causing slippage. Not an insurmountable problem to be sure, but you may need to wipe the track down periodically during ops. 


Hi Dwight: Bon Ami scouring powder is like having a working Gauge 1 sand dome.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

What a great video Henner! You can see the benefit of R/C clearly there. (Betsy is a puller! ) That's a good tip on the oily tracks as well. Only question is, working sand domes? or a rail cleaning MOW train? Maybe both...









Below is the very first (and crude) drawing for the PLS. The green topo lines are every 2 foot elevation change. The large loop at the right will contain the yard, engine facilities and Cutting house for the lime stone. The track that comes out off of the flat will be elevated track. This section will have steps down to the "pit" for easy steaming. This will probably be the first part built.









Once time and funds permit, the line will then be continued up the hill to the Lime stone quarry. This line will begin at the Y and proceed at a 2% grade (all of your responses made me bump it up from the original 1.5%







) to the quarry at the top of the hill. The loop near the house will contain the quarry. It will be nestled in between two yet to be built retaining walls. Again the track in the loop will come out past the bottom wall providing easy access elevated track for hands on activities. There will be a lot of opportunity to add spurs for other small track side industry once the main line is in. There is still a lot of planning left to do at this point. I just wanted to check the opinions on grades and steam before getting started. 

I'll be renting a bobcat to do some final tweaking of the yard in March. I also want to do some shopping at ECLSTS too. So things will begin to emerge after that. I Can't Wait ![/b]


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## Chrisp (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Randy - I just ran my Regner Vincent today at a guy's layout with 6-8% grades. The Regner, while a one cylinder job, is geared and was able to pull two cars up the grades. You just had to open up the throttle at the bottom of the hill and ease off and "coast" from the top. No RC and a heckuva lot of fun - very hands on! Hills? Go for it!


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Here's a video of my C19 under manual control, hauling 10 Fn3 cars up and down hill.
She starts up the 1.4% grade with plenty of throttle.
At the top I turn her down a lot for the down grade back to the start.

Randy,
How did you do that reallt neat site plan?

Hamish.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

Randy, 
I cannot tell from your plan what your minimum radius is. I would strongly recommend at least a 10 ft minimum radius (20 foot minimum diameter). I can tell you have plenty of room for this in your yard. It looks like a very good plan.


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## monsterhunter (May 25, 2008)

I have to echo what Chrisp said about the Regner geared locos. My Lumberjack can pull 3 or 4 cars up a 5% grade no probelm. It's also got 2 cylinders so it's self starting if you wanted to R/C it. I have really tight curves on my line. Because the Lumberjack is an 0-4-0 I don't have any problems negotiating curves. I think that the lumberjack is the only geared 2 cylinder 0-4-0 on the market. Highly recommended!
Dan


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Randy

The topography in your backyard may present something of a challenge to live steam. Have you thought of laying track in a switch-back type fashion down the steep grade along the SE part of your property? That could provide an interesting method to move live steam trains up and down this rather steep slope.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks for the video Hamish. I love to see all video of these engines making the grade. I have no doubt that what I have in mind will work now. The site map was originally drawn by a local engineer for a permit to move all of the earth around. I was fortunate that he shared the file with me. I have used "Turbo Cad" Mac version to add the garage addition to the house (not yet built when the photo below was taken) and start adding The track plan. It's a 3D software so I may eventually be able to develop a 3D shot. 

This picture may help to put the topo line on the drawing into perspective:








The layout will run back and fourth right about the level of the bottom of the basement glass. The large plateau to the right of the house (under straw) is where the large loop and facilities will be. The bottom of the large log on the hill in the left side of the photo is about where the 180 degree turn back to the quarry will be. That turn and the one around the quarry are 11' Diameter at the tightest. Everything else on the "straights" and around the facilities is 20' diameter. The Pittsburgh Lime Stone Railway will be a narrow gauge line in 1:20.3 scale. Although 11 foot diameter isn't huge, i should still be able to run some fairly large equipment if desired. As it is half of the 180 degree turn back to the quarry will have to be a curved trestle. (Darn !







) And some of the other side will be a tunnel. I have though that if an yard was suited to switch backs it would be this one. I may but a set in to service a secondary industry some day but don't want it to be part of the main operation on the railroad. Thanks everyone for all the great advice !


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks great Randy. At least you have some elevation in your yard. Here in Katy, Tx is just flaaaaaaaaaaat. I did end up with some grades however because of how they landscaped the yard. Definitely you will need r/c for all rod engines. For the geared engines it's optional as they normally do not run away down a hill. An 11' diameter is pretty sharp. Accucraft advertises most of it's 1:20 scale stuff at a 4' radius(8' diameter) minimum. I used 6' radius as my minimum and it seems to work fine. With one branchline addition I did end up with a 5' radius and it is pretty sharp but most everything can negotiate it. Have fun, your plan looks great. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/station...Rts6YOYGbs

http://www.youtube.com/user/station...8nLSEbDnks


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## Allan Bray (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm building a Ruby right now (my first live steam engine) and planning a layout for my back yard. It will be a narrow gauge mining operation, so the engine will run with a tender (as I'm bashing the Ruby so it's no longer a tank engine) and ~ 4 short wheelbase cars. The grade in my yard varies up to ~8%, and I simply don't have the real estate to accommodate 10' radius curves. My thought is that this is actually pretty cool as a design challenge - the railway has to be worked around the existing terrain as it is economically not feasible to do much in the way of terrain modification for this railway. I also have mature hardwoods in the area where I'm going to build my railway - so there will be leaves, as well as natural design obstacles. 

Anyway, I will try to keep the curves to a minimum radius of 4', naturally always going bigger if I can. 

As for the grade, I guess that if I raise the railway (which will be a lot better in terms of getting my hands on the train when needed, and from a viewing standpoint) I can make it pretty much whatever I want. But, I do want to have a grade on the railway, which introduces the issue of how live steam works with grades. I don't have a problem with the need to continuously monitor the throttle but I have a question - has anyone had any experience with "momentum" cars? I've heard of such things and I imagine them to be like children's push toys - with an internal flywheel that makes the car move slowly and stop in a reasonably realistic manner. Would something like this help to moderate the behaviour of a steam engine on a railroad with grades, and allow it to start & stop more prototypically? Or are they more trouble than they're worth?


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I have grades and there is no problem with live steam as long as it is R/C controlled. The steeper the grade the less you can pull, just remember that. Steam has entirely different characteristics than electric. It stalls out going up hill and runs away down hill and if the track gets oily it slips.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends upon the grades. Live steam rod locos, especially the little ones, tend to be a "Rolls-Canardly" - they rolls like a bat out of h--l downgrades then canardly make it up the other side. 

If your steamie can fit around r-2s you can bring it up here to test how it works on grades (If you come up 8 we're only a mile from the stone house on 173 - look for a little steamroller in the front yard!) I've got something like a 1.6% long upgrade widdershins, or a shorter 4% going the other way... and plenty of stones to help get rid of the toy-ish shine if (when?) it decides to go chase butterflies like Tootle


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey Allan, I just posted a video on your thread that might help put things in perspective. 

John, Those are some very nice videos of your layout. You can really hear those K's working on the grades, and I love seeing the blowdowns opened on the bridge! I am going to put my minimums at 12' diameter now but that is as big as I can possibly get. Still haven't started yet but I may get something done before winter hits. I'm just finishing up on a big addition to the house. There is now a 30x25 foot garage and room above between the green "tent" and the house. Now I have a work shop!


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