# Building a stage wagon style passenger coach



## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

I remember reading a thread or builders log about making a horse drawn wagon style railroad passenger coach or an actual stage coach in large scale but I can't find it. Any one know of links or leads that would help me find that type of project here or elsewhere on the web?

Very early railroads made passenger coaches that looked like wagons and 1800s railroad would have had passengers delivered and picked up at stations in horse drawn wagon coaches too.

Here's some images that may help -

"Car builders of early railroad days adapted stagecoach and wagon designs. These cars, built by Robert Imlay of Philadelphia, closely resemble modified stagecoaches of their day." Postcard image B&O Museum passenger coaches on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/PZba-Baltimore-...2BUA%2BFICS%2BUFI%2BDDSIC&otn=12&po=LVI&ps=54 

Camden and Amboy Passenger Coach (image in Smithsonian Collection)http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_1149.html 

1834 Boston and Providence passenger coach http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/collecting-iron-horses/

Thanks,

Web


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

tiny url can be a big help with those lengthy eBay address - http://tinyurl.com/

-Brian


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

I just cut and paste the URLs that the page presents. I agree the massively long URLs are annoying. 
 
Web


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## svanni (Jan 4, 2008)

Bob Baxter has scratch built some wagons that I believe are what you are looking for.


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks svanni. Bob Baxter is probably what I was looking for. I found his web site with the type of cars I was thinking of at 
http://www.doorhollowshortline.com/...movie.html Does anyone know the links for the "How To build the wagon coaches" story? 
- Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

I found Bob Baxters coach building thread here http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx 
That's helpful but not the one I remember. The build story used white styrene sheets etc. If anyone knows the whereabouts of that story or another one in the same category I'd appreciate some links. 
Bob's article brings up a good point about tracking down spoked wheels. Any sources for spoked wheels? 
Thanks, 
Web


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## Bob Baxter (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the story on the creation of "Heidi". http://4largescale.com/baxter/30.htm 
The story of the coaches for the "Rocket" are here http://4largescale.com/baxter/46.htm 
Enjoy your build. In case I failed to mention the spoked wheels, they are LGB metal tired wheels.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Bob's work is incredible. As for the coach cars, I want to make a couple of observations from the real ones at the B&O RR Museum in Baltimore. We waited for hours for the Disney Train last weekend at the Museum, so we had to stand next to the coach cars. The kids loved them because they are suspended on leather straps attached to partial wheels at each end. The kids would rock the cars as they walked by. You are not permitted to get in. They have run them with the Tom Thumb to re-enact the race between the iron horse and the real horse. I am not quite sure how you get to the upper level. The cars are standard gauge, I don't believe the B&O ever had narrow gauge. Even the vertical boiler locos were standard guage with metal plates on timbers for track. I found actual evidence when I restored the oldest railroad station in the country at Ellicott City, Maryland. The first Terminus of the B&O, just 13 miles west from Baltimore. Sometimes on "steam days" they fire this stuff up and run it for a mile or so.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

They have run them with the Tom Thumb 

Richard, 

The B&O Railroad Museum's two 'Imlay' coaches are actually reproductions, built in 1927 (along with the 'Lafayette' 4-2-0 loco) for the Centenary celebration of the B&O, the "Fair of the Iron Horse". Hence they are quite willing to get them out and run them for everyone's amusement, although they don't want little sticky-fingered kiddies ripping the upholstery, etc. The Tom Thumb is also a replica. 

Fascinating info about the fair here: *http://www.theoldmainline.com/fair.html* 

Here's our Chris on his first outing as a driver in 2006:


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Richard,

You may the the man I'm looking for. Re the strap-iron railways. Did you actually see the rails, both wood with iron? If so, did you happen to notice whether the wooden rails were notched into the ties or not?

I'm going to build that kind of rail for my layout. I've seen both notched and un-notched ties (in pictures, all lithos, which aren't noted for technical accuracy).

Notching rails would be a PIA, especially on curves.

The one thing I haven't come up with yet is a pic of a switch using strap iron. I can't figure out how they'd swing all that wood back and forth manually, and I've settled on two designs along the lines of "that's probably how they did it", but verification would be nice. One is a socket joint at the ends of the entry rails in a stub switch arrangement, the other uses a single moveable rail ala 'plate switches' used in mines, which I suspect would've been copied as familiar. 

Any help or links you could give me would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Les


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Posted By Les on 09 Oct 2009 07:00 PM 
Richard,

You may the the man I'm looking for. Re the strap-iron railways. Did you actually see the rails, both wood with iron? If so, did you happen to notice whether the wooden rails were notched into the ties or not?

I'm going to build that kind of rail for my layout. I've seen both notched and un-notched ties (in pictures, all lithos, which aren't noted for technical accuracy).

Notching rails would be a PIA, especially on curves.

The one thing I haven't come up with yet is a pic of a switch using strap iron. I can't figure out how they'd swing all that wood back and forth manually, and I've settled on two designs along the lines of "that's probably how they did it", but verification would be nice. One is a socket joint at the ends of the entry rails in a stub switch arrangement, the other uses a single moveable rail ala 'plate switches' used in mines, which I suspect would've been copied as familiar. 

Any help or links you could give me would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Les
Very cool, I want a few of these on my road.  Webber do you have any plans for these? 

Les - I'm not Richard and I'm very interested in what he can tell us, but here is some information I have gathered up in my research so far.

I too have seen both the notched and un-notched ties, the un-notched ones had metal (cast iron?) brackets to keep the stringers in place. I'm planning on straprail for my layout too and I think I may have found a way to do it. I plan on notching the ties with a router table which you can also use to shape the stringers as well. I'm going to start a new topic on the track forum for this so I don't clutter up Web's topic here. I have built a short section of straprail with the metal brackets to see how well it would work. I included a diagram of a straprail stub switch from about 1837 if it would help you. It doesn't use a single movable rail, instead both rails are moved, not far though. You can see that the rails that move are supported and connected to the ties except the on the last tie with the switch lever. I'm quessing here but I think that, when you move the rails with the lever, the ties move with them. I guess it makes sence because you want to make sure that the stringers stay in gauge and don't flop over. It must have been a pain to switch though. The only problem is that the diagram doesn't depict the rail frog area. 












Hope this helps,

Jason


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les & Jason

Here is a copy of an old book in PDF format that might be of interest to you.

The Railway Rail
File Type: PDF - File Size: 1.2MB
Left-click to open / Right-click to download[/b]


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Jason, (?--a tad confused, but that's just me)









Okay, the switch you showed me opens up a whole new area of understanding for me. First, I doubt the ties were moved. Ever try to move a 7x9 tie if it's frozen or lying in mud? (That's just an estimate on tie size, I understand different sizes were used.) From what I see from the overhead view is a series of plates between sections CC and BB. BB looks to be the tie-plate between the rails that keeps the gauge, though the drawing is fuzzy. Section CC shows the brace-blocks that keep the rails in gauge while allowing them to be 'bent' along 20' of length. It looks like the rails had to hold that gauge w/o side support along the 20', allowing them to slide on the iron plates fixed to the tie. Looks chancy, but remembering that this was the 'slow speed' age, it might've worked reliably enough. At this point I haven't downloaded the book from Steve, so this is just an opinion open to revision. I would certainly think tie bars, one or two, would've been used to keep gauge, but I don't see any and they might not have been. Section DD might show the blocks you mentioned to brace the rails, except for the 20' length. I just don't know, for sure.

I'm happy to learn I'm not alone in this strap-rail venture.

You talk of forming your radiused stringers on a router. I can't envision that w/o some sort of pantograph setup. My own intent is to wet the wood and put the pieces in a 'former' set to the correct radius.

Note that information exists that some stringers/rails/ ('longerons'?--the pieces to which the strap iron were attached) were made of three thicknesses of lumber fastened together. This is the basis for wetting the wood--using two or three thin strips. Wetting may not even be necessary.

I like the notched tie idea, and rethinking last night caused me to wonder if notches for curved ties on a radius would be a problem, since the ties 'fan' anyway. As you can see, I haven't built anything yet.

What are you using for the strap-iron? I'm using flattened copper 12ga solid house wiring. I run it through my slip roll as needed.

I too apologize if this post is botching someone else's thread, please post me when you move the topic and I'll go looking for it.

STEVE: many thanks for the link!









Les


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Svanni 
Thanks. You gave me the clue needed Bob Baxter was CORRECT. I did a Google search of my own computer desktop and found some pics I downloaded at the time from Bob's thread. The early ones were in white styrene as I had remembered. I've tried the search on this site and I can't find his original thread. If you (or anyone else) knows how to find it or where it is I'm all ears.

Thanks again.

BTW I found an amazing thread on a 3D paper modeling forum that is a step by step build of a stage coach wagon in 1:16 scale. He builds the suspension, brakes, wheels, and coach from scratch. He builds the wagon entirely with card stock, layers of paper, paper Que tips sticks, glue, a few bent paperclips, and a little sponge and cloth for the seat cushions. The painting is very basic brushwork but comes out reasonably good looking.


Anyone looking for a way to build a beautifully detailed western stage wagon including wheels should take a look at this -
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/other-builds/4425-western-stage-coach.html

You can easily use these same techniques with other materials and other wagons, or coaches in other scales or sizes. The builder thread supplies detailed instructions with over 150 photographs covering every step. Here's a pic of the wagon nearing completion at - 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3998543007/ 

Anyone who is modeling the 1800s would benefit from taking a look at the paper modeling western stage coach thread. 
- Web


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Steve - Thanks!! Another resource to add to the pile. 

Les - I'm going to respond to you on my strap rail thread.

Web - That looks cool, although I wasn't able to see the images on the other forum. I didn't want to join. Post some pictures of your progress when you start.


Jason


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Jason
Thanks for that link to Railway Rail Book. Great drawings, info and dimensions.
- Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Jason 
I usually avoid signing up for things but the paper modeler forum is fairly painless - just an email, name you want to use and click on terms. They only send one confirming e-mail and no spam. I view the threads on the web, so no additional e-mails. The western stage wagon thread goes on for 11 pages of step-by-step build instructions and thumbnail photos all along the way. You can click on the photos usually in groups of 5 at a time and they display large, clear pics, with extra details pointed out. 

If your interested I'd say its worth it just for this wagon build. They also reference another wagon wheel build that I may check back on when I get closer to that part of my efforts. The author says he's going to do a Doctor's carriage after he builds one or two sci-fi fantasy things. So I'm going to check back and see what he does with that.There's only a few builds and they are on very different themes. I see it as a good resource for ideas and some methods. I'm doing early era railroad and need to get help from whereever I can. If somebody here has done a thread or build on rail road wheels, especially spoked wheels, I'd be interested.-Web


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

To the best of my recollection, it was similar to fig 14 in the book Steve posted. Other that a 33+ year memory, I would have to find, my historic structures report. Pete got it pegged with photos of Chris & the actual equipment from the museum.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Web - As much as I like the reproduction cars in the B&O museum, they were built in 1927 and are not exactly like the originals. They probably didn't follow the originals for practicable reasons. The biggest difference is that they didn't use Winan's friction wheels for the journal boxes. Which is good as the originals had a tendency to wear out quickly and gave too much slop in the support for the wheelsets. Here is a drawing I found of how possibly the originals looked. It's not the greatest quality and no dimensions. 











You can see the friction wheel journal boxes in the image and it looks like there is some differences in how the frame was constructed as well. Here is another diagram of a flour car from the same time period (1831-1834?).











This car too has the friction wheels journal boxes, and at least this one has dimensions.  Winan had patented the friction wheel in 1828 and even demonstrated it at the Rainhill trials in England in 1829. All of the US patent records prior to 1836 were lost in a fire, so that patent was lost. The patent image was reproduced in the B&O annual report so we still have it. I was able to find the image, again not in very good quality. 











I took some styrene/green stuff and made a master of the friction wheel, made a mold and cast it up in white metal. I wasn't sure just how well it would come out as this was the largest castings I had attempted. I think they came out pretty good, there are still some problems, but I'm happy with them as is. I improved my mold form and it helped a lot. Here is the picture of what I made, I have numbered the items in the picture. 1) is the styrene master, 2) is the mold made from QuickSil, 3) is a finished friction wheel in two pieces, and 4) are the other cast parts, some with the sprues still attached.










I took one of the friction wheels and mounted it in a piece of scrap 3/8" square bass wood I had so you could see how it looks mounted. 

Front: 










Back: You can see the journal hole, it needs to be drilled out to 3/16" for F-scale journals. 










Top: I resessed the bolt heads here, it appears that was common in this time period.










And here is all of the pieces and parts that are needed to mount it. I used 0-80 bolts, nuts, and washers.










Let me know how they look. If you would like to try a set I could send you 4 of them to you. I just ask that you pay for shipping.

Richard - If you run across that report again and feel like posting it, I would love to read it. 


Jason


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Jason 
Thanks for drawings and build pics. They look great. Your build pics and drawings do bring up a good point. 
All, 

I want to model the passenger coaches first used on the Camden & Amboy on November 12, 1831 in 20.32 scale to model one of the first passenger trains pulled by steam in NJ. "John Bull" engine and coaches. (Which was the reason to start this discussion in the first place.) The "John Bull" engine is well documented but the information on the coaches is limited. 
Smithsonian has a photo of an engraving at http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthe..._1149.html 
and it is shown in The American Railroad Passenger Car book by John H. White (Image, p.5) 
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vm...q=&f=false 

Do you have any information from your knowledge or research (such as identifying equipment and related patents) or sources that would help in modeling some of the parts on the coach in these pictures? 
- Web


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