# So CA is waterproof?



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Jack V in GRR said it isn't. A reader sent in a letter to the Aug 09 GRR said it is (I got an advanced copy b/c I have a small article).

So, since it might be, I may use it on structures that will remain outdoors. Good news indeed. 


I've had mixed success with CA or super glue. Tension seems to be strong but had some trouble with shear; might be I made some mistakes in application.

I need to find a list of which CA goes best with which materials.


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. Maybe I'll experiment with water. I think it has most to do with the surface. Sometimes it just falls off, others, you can't get apart for nothing. I have a little styrene piece here that I mistakenly put together the wrong way. I thought I'd just break it apart and put it right. Nope! No go! Can't be done! Had to make another part. I used the Locktite "Precision Max" super glue. I'll just drop it in some water and leave it a few days to see what happens.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I have have always heard CA is NOT waterproof, and will disolve easily in rain/water.. 
never tried it myself, but "general knowledge" has always said CA is no good for garden railroad gluing for anything that will be outdoors.. 

Scot


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I forgot to mention that in the letter to the editor, the guy said some live steam guys use CA to glue their water tender together and it holds the water. 

He said he attended a Loctite seminar where they did a water demo 

if true, this is great news as we can use smaller scale modeling glue reliably outdoors!


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not one to dispute another's experiences, but I've never had luck with it long-term in an outdoor setting. Whether it's moisture, sun, freeze/thaw, or chipmunks, I can't say for certain. All I do know is that early on, when Super Glue (CA) was purported to be the end-all-be-all adhesive, dad and I built many of our railroad's buildings out of wood with CA. They were built, coated with polyester resin (fiberglass resin) to protect and seal the wood, then painted and set outside. In most cases, a year or two later they were reduced to kindling. I've since used it for "quick fixes" and the like, but never with any expectation that the joint would actually hold up. Mostly, it's so it didn't look broken in the photograph I 'm about to take. 

Know also that there's a bit of a difference between simulations and real-world reactions. When I was looking for material for building buildings, I saw a Hardibacker display that had a piece of the material encased in water to show how durable it is. Once the stuff is outdoors, it's a different story. The moisture in the ground, along with the freeze/thaw cycle causes the stuff to delaminate along the edges. 

I'd defintely be interested in hearing other's positive experiences with the glue outdoors. I fear, however, that it's going to be a short conversation. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

When CA first came out, a friend used it to glue a model airplane motor mount together. It DOES dissolve in model airplane fuel! I made a note to myself, "Stick with epoxy in the motor mount."


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot of the durability may have to do with what materials are being joined together with the CA.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

CA is not water proof or even water resistant. Do not use it for outdoor applications period.


----------



## Russell Miller (Jan 3, 2008)

When the Bay Area Garden Railway Society did a long term test of many different glues, cements and adhesives for the 2006 NGRC. CA type glues were one of the first if not the first to fail. Many different materials that Garden Railroaders use outside were glued together and then subjected to outdoor elements including almost daily being hit with water from a sprinkler. The combination of wind, rain and sun took their toll on the test samples. Many that we thought would fail quickly did, like ELMERS White Glue. The CA type glues were actually a surprise on how quickly they failed. I think it had a lot to do with the CA's lack of shear strength along with failure due to the moisture exposure. The big surprise standout was the E-6000 Adhesive. We had no failures with that glue.

I've been selling glues, cements and adhesives for 29 years and I've been using them in Model Making for many years longer than that. One thing I've learned, someone, somewhere will always say that what they did works and it is contrary to what you know from experience. I'm always quick to let them know that I'm glad it worked for them but I will still not recommend it to others for that application.

Use the CA glue to assemble and hold your pieces together. It sets quickly and holds well, for a while. Use a better, slower setting glue afterwords to back-up the CA and to hold the parts together permanently. That way when the CA fails, and it will, the back-up glue is still there doing its job and holding the things together.

Russ


----------



## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

I had heard somewhere where that the the original intent of CA was to replace surgical stitches...litterally glue people together. The moisture present in the body (or air) would help activate the glue but then it would breakdown over time in the same (moist) environment. It coud be urban legend - I didn't even fire up Google to check - but I can attest to two things: 

Don't use it outdoors 

It DOES bond skin...very, very easily


----------



## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

Nope!


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

It was intended as a spray on bandage to stop bleeding and stabilize the injured for transport. They didn't actually glue you back together. There is a similar product used by dentists to stop bleeding.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I would be inclined to think that if CA is actually deemed to be waterproof, like Loctite says it is, it has to do more with shear problems, as outside structures are subject to wind and vibration


----------



## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends on what you use it for. External window trim and cladding sticks for good, and it wont come apart. I got hold of several test joints and tried to seperate them. The join holds and the strip breaks. In most case I agree about cyano parting over time, but this does appear to controdict the norm.The replacement window industry uses it extensively in the UK. 

I have researched this a bit with my bridge bulding. Here are the materials. 











This has been outside since last October and it has nt budged, rain, snow, freezing and now summer heat.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I suppose it might also make a difference which type you use? 

regular vs gap filling? The latter seems to be popular for joining the ends to wood which are pourous. Also used to strengthen paper for those designing paper locos.


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

When we do pacemaker insertions, when the physician is finished suturing up the pacemaker pocket we use a glue-like substance called "Dermabond"...cost us $75, so you can emagine what the cost is to the patient, for maybe 1oz or less vial to place over the suture line to stop any blood loss...and last longer then the store bought stuff.

It works like the stuff you buy at the store, but the one at the store that stings lasts longer then the stuff that doesn't sting.

As far as a glue to hold skin together, never heard of it...nor has anyone I work with in surgery.

If you want to use glue to hold a LARGE area after surgery..please do not take me to that hospital, as guts are better in then out on the floor!

CA will also hold skin together...BUT it stings like crazy!!

Bubba


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Reference:

http://www.palmlabsadhesives.com/cyanoacrylate.htm


A normal cyanoacrylate bond reaches full strength in two hours, and is waterproof. 
As such a cyanoacrylate glue is very good at bonding body tissue. While this effect can be a nuisance (or even dangerous) for everyday use, it has been exploited for the benefit of suture-less surgery using cyanoacrylate adhesives.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Madstang on 06/23/2009 10:34 AM
...BUT it stings like crazy!!

Bubba 


It does? I've glued myself to myself a number of times, usually just a minor fingertip joint but once I glued all three middle fingers together (don't ask!), and I noticed the heat from the exothermic reaction but never felt any stinging. Regardless, I don't recommend it for entertainment. 


Another interesting tidbit on the site Charles referenced is: "Cold temperatures cause a cyanoacrylate adhesive to become brittle. Cyanoacrylate adhesives bond can be weakened, allowing disassembly, by placing a cyanoacrylate glued object in a household freezer for several hours." Doesn't sound like a good choice for outdoor use - even here in southern California I get winter nights with temps below freezing.


And Loctite's FAQ webpage Loctite FAQ says, in answer to the question "Are Loctite Super Glues heat and water resistant?" "No." 


This thread reminds me a bit of the Li-po battery thread in the Beginners forum, only (thankfully) less heated. Some say CA is waterproof; some say it isn't. The obvious conclusion for me is that I'm not going to invest a lot of my time into building something with a material that is questionable when there are other choices to be easily had, and I don't feel like spending any time running my own experiments to see if it would work in my particular situation and conditions. Too many other, more productive, things to do. My thanks to those who have shared their first hand experiences and testing results.


----------



## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Great discussion.

Maybe we need to make a distinction between "water proof" and "weather proof"












Dave


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Different brands of CA may have slightly different formulations that may work differently with various materials in different environments. I think it would be informative to know which brands were used with what materials when the joint appears to be good and when it has failed. 

Even different species of wood (pine, balsa, fir, redwood, etc.) or what plastic (styrene, ABS, etc) were used. Also, what kinds of treatments was the wood subjected to (CCA, AC2, Stained, Painted, oiled, etc.) or was the plastic cleaned of oils and mold release agents? All of the materials involved, from the CA itself to the base material being bonded as well as contaminants in the area will affect the resultant bond as much or more than the weather the bond is subjected to over its lifetime. 

Can those of you that say CA is waterproof, as well as those that say it is not, (works vs. failed), list those factors in your particular instances?


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Different brands and chemical make up relative to "waterproof" as one reads:

A normal cyanoacrylate bond reaches full strength in two hours, and is waterproof. 
That type described above is not the typical "bonds in seconds" which might only be water resistant. 

As to our experience, have utilize on live steam engines to hold parts which can be exposed to heat, steam, wet, etc. Parts hold until something or someone breaks it off (usual a big finger). I can recall the one time I called Accucraft about a wheel that came off the axle: recommendation- "super glue" it in place!


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 06/23/2009 11:44 AM
Posted By Madstang on 06/23/2009 10:34 AM
...BUT it stings like crazy!!

Bubba 


It does? I've glued myself to myself a number of times, usually just a minor fingertip joint but once I glued all three middle fingers together (don't ask!), and I noticed the heat from the exothermic reaction but never felt any stinging. Regardless, I don't recommend it for entertainment. 


NO..NO I am talking about using it on an OPEN wound, cut whatever...THEN get back to me about it not stinging...I have heard of people using it that way.
Capeche 
Bubba


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used it that way. 

When building model airplanes barefooted, be sure to jump back *quickly* when an xacto rolls off the table.


----------



## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

A similar corollary: When building model airplanes, never try to catch a falling xacto knife...however CA glue was not involved.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I think it probably has something to do with the material. My plate girder bridges were built entirely with thick CA and after 3+ years they are still just as strong as ever. The "plates" are made of 1/8" thick, G10 fiberglass, and the bracing is styrene. Both of these are very hard, non-porous materials. 

I've used it a few times on wooden structures with much less success. For wood-to-wood joins, I now only use Titebond II. 

I've also had trouble using CA on aluminum, but then not much else works with aluminum either.


----------



## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 06/27/2009 11:35 PM
I think it probably has something to do with the material. My plate girder bridges were built entirely with thick CA and after 3+ years they are still just as strong as ever. 





.... and climate. We on the East Coast have gotten more rain in the past 3 months than San Diego gets in 2 years!
I used to keep a bottle of CA by the layout to glue back on building parts. That's gone now and replaced with a tube of GOOP which as yet to fail.


-Brian


----------



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Torby, 
What was the result of your water test with CA? 
BTW, I read somewhere, but can't remember where that CA first was used by medics in Vietnam to fix ears, noses, and sometimes fingers back on injured soldiers as well as closing some gaping wounds. It was designed specifically to be catalyzed by the moisture on the human body. Wish I could remember where I read that though /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


----------



## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted this a ways back for those of you who do not have flat scalples. I also had enough of rolling X-ACTOs, so I taped a piece of 40 tho evergreen strip to the end of the knife. No more rolling.


----------



## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By altterrain on 06/28/2009 9:07 AM
Posted By Ray Dunakin on 06/27/2009 11:35 PM
I think it probably has something to do with the material. My plate girder bridges were built entirely with thick CA and after 3+ years they are still just as strong as ever. 





.... and climate. We on the East Coast have gotten more rain in the past 3 months than San Diego gets in 2 years!
I used to keep a bottle of CA by the layout to glue back on building parts. That's gone now and replaced with a tube of GOOP which as yet to fail.


-Brian 



Funny how several people can use the same product and have different results. I've had several Goop failures on styrene/styrene joints.
At the same time, Goop worked very well when I used it to glue acrylic to styrene on my work caboose.
Ralph


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Rod, simple but elegant! Now, do you have something that will keep it from getting lost on my workbench??? 

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, Garden Railroader refers to this thread and says we are wrong, CA is waterproof.... so there! 

I personally have had different results based on the material glued. Since one or 2 joints came loose with moisture, I no longer use CA when things can get wet. That way I do not have to worry about the material type. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

My brother dropped an x-acto knife once and instinctively tried to catch it. Instead he just succeeded in jamming it into his thigh, up to the hilt. Ouch!


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Torby, 
What was the result of your water test with CA? 


Soaking since June 22, the ca joint remains unchanged. 










This is "Loctite Super Glue Precision Max."


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Torby, 

While the lab test will likely show it to be waterproof, a field test would be even better. For example, it could be placed on a windy ledge, weighted down and attach a flag or something to the upright piece that creates tension. Maybe throw some dirt on it as well. 

IOW, I think there might be a host of variables.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Naturally, to counter my earlier experiences, I just had to replace the roof on one of my freight cars. It got left out in one of our afternoon deluges, and the wood roof warped like crazy, necessitating its removal. It was held down with either 3M spray adhesive or two-sided tape (used to repair some pieces earlier). The roofwalks were held on with super glue. The 3M spray adhesive came apart fairly easily. The tape was a flippin' bugger. Good stuff, that! (It's the same stuff Jack Verducci wrote about in GR a few issues back). The super glue took the wood on the roof with it! (which stinks because now I have to make new roofwalk supports--something I was hoping not to have to do.) Given the state of the roof, and my previous experience with super glue on wet surfaces, I was not expecting that. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Russ,

Since you're well versed in these glues, could you IM me a brand name that will stick my outside rearview mirror back in its holder? I've tried two brands advertised to do the job, and both failed within a month. Cleaned the area first with Isoprophyl, then acetone. And let them dry. No soap.

Duct tape looks uncool....

Thanks, Les


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

After all these weeks in water, the Locktite CA I mentioned is still solid. However! It appears to dissolve in smoke fluid. Perhaps the same with red locktite.


----------

