# Mikado run #2



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

This is the second voyage on rails for my Mikado. This time I put a train behind it. I was a bit more relaxed this time too. 




run #2


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very nice!

Greg


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

* Very nice !!*


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like you had a good day for it, I enjoy running mine.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Once again Jeremiah, you put that kit together very well. 
Enjoy running it. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks all. I need to learn to link the video the way you did Greg. Can one do that if not a 1st class member? Thanks David. I do enjoy running it. I plan on taking it to the Ridge Live Steamers winter meet in February. Hopefully someone will have another get together before then. Running it is becoming too fun to wait too long in between. Hope to one day have a layout of my own though.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

This year at the Ridge meet, I will be there Sat since my club shows up to run on this day (I was there on Friday last year because I couldn't go Sat). I know Norm and the rest of the Gauge 1 crew goes Friday - who knows, maybe ill sneak out Friday & Sat 

Andrew 

P.S. To post a video, you do not have to be 1st class (try this in the test forum), 

On youtube, click share and click embed. Click on "old embed code" and select the code (control C to copy) 
Come to this form, click add reply like usual, press the enter key a few times, then click on the "html" tab at the bottom of the typing window. Click inbetween one of the div tags - you will see div and then a closing div - inbetween the arrow brackets (wish I can type it here but the editor formats it lol) What your doing it pasting the raw embedded youtube video code in the html editor of mylargescale. 

Do this in the test forum until you get it. 

Andrew


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Andrew. BTW, you should go Friday if you can swing it. Would love to see you there. I won't be able to go Sat.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Can someone explain "cut-off" as it relates to gauge 1 live steam? I understand the principle as it applies to prototypical operations, but for our purposes, when is it good to 'notch" up? I notice that when I notch up, it slows the engine down a bit even tough I did not touch the regulator to admit more steam. [email protected] url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It depends on what type of engine you have. For those that do not have true adjustable valve gear (ruby and its many, many variants, and several other engines) that use the method of swapping the in and out ports of the valve chest, there is NO SUCH THING as "Notching Up". All that happens when the reverser lever is moved closer to the center is that throttling of the steam flow occurs. I have seen some misadjusted Ruby's where, if the Reverser is in Full Forward, the steam is throttled by the piston in the steam flow controller because it has moved past the point of being full open and is now partially closed... "notching up" will make the engine go faster because in notching up the piston opens the ports more! Some people use the Reverser as the R/C throttle!

On an engine like your Aster Mike, Notching Up really does work in that the length of time that steam is allowed to enter the cylinder is shortened on each stroke. 

If the Reverser is in Full Forward (or Reverse) the entire pressure of the boiler is applied to the piston surface as it moves from one end of the cylinder to the other. If the throttle is partially closed then, because the steam takes time to pass the narrowed throttle valve, it is possible that the pressure in the dry pipe (steam supply pipe) will drop as the piston moves and makes more room for the steam to expand. If the throttle is full open then steam can move less impeded passing to the dry pipe and the pressure does not drop as much.

You control the speed of the engine my impeding the passage of pressure from the boiler to the dry pipe and the cylinders.

When you Notch Up, the steam enters the cylinder for only a portion of the movement of the piston and then the pressure from the boiler is removed when the valve gear closes the port to the cylinder. The steam then applies a decreasing pressure to the piston to move it... the farther it moves, the lower the pressure pushing on it because there is more volume for it to fill.

Given that the pressure is going down, the speed at which it moves the piston will also reduce. If the throttle is partially closed when running Notched Up, then the total amount of steam being injected into the cylinder might be reduced, which will also reduce the total speed of moving the piston. Thus the engine may slow down.

In prototypical practice, the Engineer would put the Reverser in full Forward and then open the throttle until the engine reached the desired speed... the rate of opening the throttle controlled the acceleration of the train (Jack rabbit starts in a passenger train were frowned upon!). Once the desired speed was attained, the Engineer would start moving the Reverser lever toward the middle to shorten the stroke of the valve admiting steam to the cylinder. This reduced the steam consumption and might reduce the speed some, if so, he would open the throttle more to maintain speed. Once the throttle was full open, he could control the speed by adjusting the Reverser lever to admit more or less steam, thus using it as a throttle.

With both of my Mikes, I note that they tend to speed up slightly as I Notch Up, but as I approach the center position, I have to open the throttle more (assuming I am not playing "Slot Trains" at the time!).


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Charles, that is interesting. I wonder why I notice a decrease in speed as I notch up. Perhaps I don't observe long enough and it eventually does speed up? However, as the reverser moves closer to neutral it is in a sense, closing the ports so it would make sense that the less steam admitted would decrease the speed? I am probably not truly understanding this then. I get that closing off the ports allows the steam admitted to expand more and save on fuel/steam on the prototypes, but on the small scale then I guess I am not getting it?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I think what you are seeing is correct... my Mikes are probably missadjusted or possibly leaking steam past the valve and applying pressure longer than they should or maybe in full open I am getting leakage of pressure to the exhaust side and that is slowing the piston a wee bit, and when I notch up that leak is closed and mine speed up... but I am usually running full bore all the time and I am using a glitchy R/C that I have seen it throw the reverser completely from Forward to Reverse and back in a split second and than can make for some jerky operation and adds a lot of confusion as well as excitment to what is happening.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. Well, thanks a bunch for the explanation. You really know your stuff.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, I have studied Steam Engines for a long time and read dozens of books on theory, design and maintenance... unfortunately my mechanical abilities with a screwdriver and wrench are severely lacking and my poor Mikes suffer from it. I tend to have too much fun running them to take the time to make them run right! I have noticed that if I notch up far enough the valves are so far out of adjustment that I am sometimes running on just one end of one cylinder, i.e.: One chuff per revolution of the drivers... as I move the reverser lever toward Full, I then get 2 chuffs, then 3 and sometimes you can actually hear 4, but by then the engine is running so fast that it is just a continuous hiss out the stack!

About that time, I throw the engine into reverse and watch the drivers slow in about 1 or 2 revolution and lock up while the train slows, then they break traction and spin wildly in reverse before the train gets stopped and reversed and they again attain a grip and move the whole thing the other way. (I'd be fired in a second if I didn't own the Railroad!!!!)


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

You also have to remember that we are talking gauge one small engines here. The Aster Mike only has two course clicks (Notches) from full open to center. At the scale of engine we are talking about these two clicks are rather large adjustments. If the Mike had a screw type reverser or if you took out the factory reverser and replaced it with RC control, then very fine adjustments could be made. Then you would get a better feel for how the Loco can be notched up or down. 


Is all this necessary...............not to me. My Mikado is just like it came from the factory and it will run one click down from full "Notched up" position fine, but after that I get unsatisfactory performance. I leave it in the full "Notched up" position and let her go.


It is neat though to realize the aster engines are so prototypical that you can adjust the valve events on the fly just like the real ones if you want to.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Alright. I have been sitting on this for awhile and balls to the wall... here it is. Some will sigh at me bringing this up again and some will ignore it, but hopefully someone will be able to explain it so even a dunce like me can understand it.



Chuffs. I have had my Mikado pulling a train (sure, not the heaviest of trains, but a train never the less) and still I don't hear the chuffs I hear on certain videos of the southern Mikado. Now, I have double wrapped the insulation inside my smokebox, so double what Aster called for in the building instructions. Is this perhaps muffling the chuffs? I have to say that one of the many things that got me interested in the world of live steam were the chuffs produced from the natural exhaust stroke of the piston. Something which could only be replicated electronically on the sparkies.

Now, lets forget that there will be a difference between gas fired and spirit fired locos. 

Here is a comparison between two spirit fired locos. The Britannia by accucraft and the Mikado by Aster. In all the videos I have seen of the britannia, it produces a nice exhaust beat. This is even when it isn't pulling that many cars. Even on a treadmill video I have viewed one can hear the beats. Now, on the Mikado? Silent as the grave, even when hauling a train. Apart from the sounds of the drivers rolling over the track segments, one could not even know a train were running if blindfolded. 

Now before you throw your hands up and say. "give it a rest already", allow me to say that even without the chuffs, I am happy with my Mikado. However, the chuffs are something I sorely miss when I view videos of other live steam gauge 1 locos running.

I watch the accucraft K4 and lust after the chuffs it produces sans a train. 

Now, even with those videos of the mikado, one other Aster Mikado owner has told me that his runs silent too. What makes one run differently from another in terms of chuffs?

If I could have the Mikado and one other thing it would be "chuffs". If I can't, I'll still be glad I have the mikado, but I'll always be a bit jealous when watching videos of other locos (aster included) with great chuffs.


Is my loco just lame? 

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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well Jeremiah, 
I would suggest two things. 
1) I believe that the sound that you hear IS effected by the smokebox. 
Like a guitar, it must act as some kind of a sound board. The bigger the smoke box, the deeper the sound etc.. 
So yes, probably the double insulation has had an effect. 
2) But the main chuff maker, is the exhaust nozzle. 
If you 'strangle' the exhaust, by making the hole a smaller diameter, it will make more noise as the steam has to force it's way out. 
Too small, and it can effect the running of the loco, and also can cause the flames on the wicks to be lifted, due to the pulsing of the exhaust making the draft pulse as well. 
BUT, it will make more noise. 
So, how do you do that? 
I guess you need to remove the boiler, so that you can get to the exhaust nozzle. 
Perhaps find a smaller size drill, or wire, that can go into the hole, and then gently tap, or squeeze the nozzle around it to make it a smaller diameter. 
Or maybe you can find someone who can make you something to slide over the existing nozzle so that you can try different size holes without disturbing the original as I am sure that there will be no spares available. 
Other than that, I'll offer you $1000 for it, and you can put it towards buying an Accucraft K4 and fit a chuffer pipe! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Let me try to offer some sort of explanation...

1st, you cannot ignore the difference between Gas fired and Spirit fired (Butane vs Alcohol).  Gas fired does not need a draft to be generated to get the fire where it does the most good, and Spirit fired does.

THUS... in a Gas fired engine you can do stuff to the exhaust that produces more noise (chuff) that you SHOULD NOT do with a Spirit fired engine.

WHY? Well, the noise is turbulance in the exhaust stream, and in that turbulance is the energy of the exhaust being expended making noise. Thus, NO draft (or very little) is being generated. 

In a spirit fired locomotive the draft needs to expend its energy in capturing air (exhaust gases/fumes/smoke/whatever) in the smokebox and expelling it up the stack so a vacuum forms, which is filled by drawing the fire (and all its gases) into the flues where the heat is transfered to the water. If your Mike were to make all kinds of noise, then the fire would not burn well, because the energy to generate the draft is being lost in the noise.

So... Since your engine is not making lots of noise, then you have a very effecient exhaust draft! That is Good! YAY! \0/

Not necessarily what you and ME (and most others) would like the engine to be doing for the ambience of a Live Steam Locomotive. Boooooo!

I tried several things to attempt to make my Mikes make more noise. 

I made a pipe to slip over the exhaust nozzle that had some fins soldered on the top that stuck up into the exhaust stream to try to get it to swirl or go into some sort of turbulance and thus make a chuff sound on each exhaust puff. I tried 4 vanes, that I could bend in any direction and vary which way the "swirl" would go and how far into the exhaust stream they extended (how much of the exhaust stream they would interfere with). I aimed them to just make a tornado swirl in one direction and I also aimed them such that two of them directed a portion of the stream at another portion. Nothing made a lot of noise, but too much interference with the stream and the fire would start coming out the bottom of the firebox, indicating a total loss of the draft.

I made a pipe to slip over the exhaust nozzle that held up 4 short pipes that were bent such that the exhaust would blow over the ends to maybe whistle (like blowing over a pop bottle). Pipes are not near as "adjustable" as flat vanes, so I was not able to vary the positions of the ends as easily, but the couple of places I tried did nothing but ruiin the draft.

I tried putting a spiderweb of brass in the top of the stack, hoping that being near the exit of the gasses it would not interfer with the draft but might produce some turbulance in the draft gasses, but if it made any difference in the noise level, it ruined he draft.

Some things you might try that are easy to do... tip the exhaust pipe slightly forward or slightly back so the exhaust stream will impinge on one side of the pettycoat (the part of the stack that is inside the smoke box) instead of going straight up the stack. If you get it "right" you might get more noise without losing too much draft.

Run with the throttle wide open and the valve gear in full... makes for "Slot trains" operation, but the more steam in the cylinder when the exhaust is release the more noise you will get. Reducing the throttle, reduces the available quantity of steam in the exhaust so less noise, and notching up on the Reverser does that same thing.

I get the most noise at startup when the throttle is wide open and it is in full foward gear and it is starting to move a heavy train, so add some weight to the cars. The only problem here is that getting a heavy train started is very difficult. Ideally, you want a train that is easy to start and gets progressively harder to pull the faster it goes. This would allow the engine to NEED more steam to pull and thus have more steam to exhaust to make more noise.

I worked on a "dynometer" car where I added a cetrifugal clutch to one axle that engaged after it started spinning. It worked pretty good, but being on only one axle was not much of a brake for the train. (I painted a yellow stripe on one wheel on that axle and the same side wheel on the other axle of the same truck... it was funny to see just a blurr of yellow on the non-brake axle and a slow sliding wheel with a "clock hand" turning at about 1 revolution per second on the one with the clutch brake!). BUT... I did notice a slight increase in the chuff volume. I want to find a way to miniaturize the centrifugal clutch and put it on EVERY axle!!!! Should really tame the "Slot Train" action and provide a need for lots of steam pressure and lots of steam to exhaust, and thus lots of CHUFF.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); David and Charles. Thanks. 

No way David hee hee. I love the Mikado. Thought I had conveyed that between the lines. If it were sound only I would probably just go with a sparkie as they make the best chuffs, albeit un-natural. 

I don't think I'll be messing with any exhaust pipe diameter either. It runs fine now and I dont' want to compromise that just because I want to hear a chuff. Just was very curious after being told before that adding a train behind it would get it barking and then I have talked with someone who did tell me that unlike others, their Mikado was silent too even when pulling a train. 

Well, at least we got to talking trains eh? Cheers.

BTW, I know this subject has been visited before by me and others, but Charles, your explanation makes perfect sense. David, I had thought that double the insulation might be a factor in reducing (muting) the noise. I guess in the end I would rather have the smoke box look better than the chuffs sound better.

To be fair though, when I did have the cars coupled and I opened up the throttle I did hear it working a bit to get going and thus hear a few chuffs. Once it got going it settled down.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a old saying, "It is what it is". A alcohol fired engine will never bark like a gas powered because of the already mentioned reasons. The only time I have ever heard impressive bark's from my Mikado was when running one click down from full (top) of reverser pulling a heavy train. Only when I clicked it back up to the top............. when the cut off was allowed back to full steam, for a few seconds, I heard a few really nice barks. This was nothing that you could hear across the yard but it sounded real nice for those few seconds. Then it was back to usual, barely hearing the exhaust unless you listened very close. Like I said, it is what it is. I would still rather have it that way then recorded Sparkie chuff's.


Gas powered, another story. There are chuff enhancers for most engines. The ones that have run with them at my track sound amazingly good. Accucraft gas fired engines chuff extremely well right out of the box.


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Here is a good example of an alky barking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DP8KVoJUWE&feature=youtube_gdata_player This is from messing around with the blast pipe, length and diameter. It CAN be done. Quite simple. BTW, back in the day, I had an aster mikado in the mid 90's. Built from a kit. It had a nice bark as well. I would show video but it was recorded on a mini vhs tape. One of these days I'll figure how to upload it. Wait til the challenger comes out. Most of you guys will probably freek-out when you find out what I've done to it. Later......


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steamupdad on 10 Jan 2012 01:31 PM 
Here is a good example of an alky barking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DP8KVoJUWE&feature=youtube_gdata_player This is from messing around with the blast pipe, length and diameter. It CAN be done. Quite simple. BTW, back in the day, I had an aster mikado in the mid 90's. Built from a kit. It had a nice bark as well. I would show video but it was recorded on a mini vhs tape. One of these days I'll figure how to upload it. Wait til the challenger comes out. Most of you guys will probably freek-out when you find out what was done to it. Later... 

By later do you mean you are gonna tell us what they have done. Is it good or bad?


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I, myself, plan on making several mods to MY challenger kit (if I can still afford it . Such as going full ball bearing and an eight channel r/c. This requires pulling apart drivers and machining. Anything that rotates 360° will get a bearing, if pheasable. Me no scared.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, the sky is the limit with the correct tools and the "knowledge" to do these incredible modifications to the engines with those tools. You can also pay people to do these things for you if you are like me, and were born with two thumbs on each hand. So if you are like me............. "It is what it is" unless you want to pay the bucks.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

This video is an old favorite of mine, it has a nice bark, just give it a good load!


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