# New



## stu30 (Jun 5, 2011)

I am currenty modeling n scale and looking at going in to g. The first thing i want to know is laying track on what ie, straight on the dirt. The other thing is wiring for dcc. What is the easiest way to do that with it being out side. Thanks many more questions to come.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Welcome aboard, Stu. 
Why don't you use the forums and read what's been written already. We are good about posting photos. 

I float my track on/in ballast of 1/4" broken rock, I would avoid plain dirt because of mud, others use concrete for a road bed and others use ladders (spline roadbeds) and bring the scenery up to it and others like elevated railroads. 
DCC is popular and you'll get expert advice here from Greg E and others.... 

Unfortunately our Search feature is flaky, but google is good if you tag it; mls- 'subject' But I learned a lot by reading previous posts. 

Happy Rails 
John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The answer to whether your roadbed should be a trench filled with ballast, concrete, ladder method, or elevated, depends a lot of where you live and your local climate. I have had railroads on the ground with ballast in Colorado and currently in Virginia. I have never anchored my track to the ground. I let it float. The track will expand and contract with temperature. Too much anchoring and you may come out and find that the track has separated from the ties. I have heard that concrete isn't advisable in areas where the ground freezes. 

Your best bet would be to find some garden railroaders in your area and visit their layouts, see what they did and ask a lot of questions.

If you could tell us the general area where you live, I'm sure there are members here on MLS who are in your general area and would be more than willing to talk to you.

I use primarily track power and occasional RC/battery, so I can't help you with your DCC question. 


Chuck


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

but google is good if you tag it; mls- 'subject' 
I also use Google but I make it specific, e.g. "site:mylargescale.com laying track outdoors". 

While DCC wiring is practical, you should be aware that some of us bypass all the problems of outdoor electrics (think of the track cleaning - bird droppngs, tree sap, dirt from the rain . . .,) by using onboard batteries and radio control. Airwire is essentially a DCC system using r/c to send the commands.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Your DCC wiring will depend on if you are using brass or stainless steel track. It will also depend on the amperage of the trains you want to run. It will also depend on the type of joiners you use, and to some extent your environment. 

If you can, put feeders about every 40 foot, and your layout will work for everything, use like 10 gauge solid wire. 

If you want to go to less work and expense, then you can do a bit more analysis and have fewer feeders, farther apart. 

And, while battery control is practical, many of us bypass the pain in the butt of chargers, trying to fit batteries in locos, trailer cars, lack of features in r/c systems, short run times, inability to have smoke systems, etc, and enjoy the great advantages of DCC outdoors, with the many choices of hardware that a non-proprietary system has. 

I have DCC and love it. (Run the same controllers on my Z scale also, visit my site, it's in my signature) 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Short run times? 
excuse me your bias is showing.... now go clean your track.... ha ha.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, if a newbie came on and said he wanted to run battery, and a track power guy mentioned going to track power, all heck would break loose. 

But a simple question about power feeds (OBVIOUSLY track power), and the "battery alternative" rears it's head along with the sales pitch/advantages. 

So I merely did a counterpoint. 

And I run 6-7 hours, so your batteries, especially if running lights and smoke, do not have that capacity in normal circumstances, unless you pack an e8 shell full of them. 

Just have been making the point lately that we don't need to try to change people's minds right out of the chute. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I have stainless track, I don't clean it any more than a battery guy.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

What do you mean, no smoke with battery, I did it Saturday. Do it all the time. Real Loco's don't have an infinate amount of fuel, when fuell gets low just change out batteries..............Jim

POLL...........http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...f/4/aft/120375/afv/topic/afpgj/6/Default.aspx


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I use battery power. I use cordless drill batteries. I have more than one. (6) While I am burning up the rails with one . The other is in the charger. When one goes dead I pop the top off the battery car. Pull two wires. slip in a newly charged battery and hook up the two wires and I am off and running like a heard of turtles.







I get about 3 hours per charge or more depending on how much I am pulling. 

My cordless drill pulls 6 amps depending what I am doing Two SD 45s and 25 cars pulls about 3 amps. I don't run smoke becasue to me it looks whimpy.









I am in the desert of AZ. My roadbed is concrete. If done right you never have to touch it again. ( unless you have frost heave ) If you want to change something it is not that hard to do. I ballast maybe every 2 to 3 years. Mostly as needed. 

What part of the forest are you in? Do you have extreme temperatures ? 

Compact your base. You will have less trouble. 

Make one of these. It 's a mall from Home depot. Attach a flat piece of metal to the mall About 4 inces wide. If you know someone who welds have him do it. Or just use large hose clamps.

Use this to tamp the bottom of your trench ( if you decide to use grave) 










JJ


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have any experience with DCC outside, so I can't help you there. I have two power schemes right now: straight DC and the aristo craft REVO system. For the REvo system, I run power feeders about every 50-60 feet. I'm using stainless steel track for the revo layout and brass for the dc only layout. 

Track support depends on you. Older guys prefer their trains where they can get to them without getting down on the ground, and build tables outside. Some folks prefer concrete, others do floating ballast with tamped stone dust. I even know a guy that has his laid on dirt, and moss is his ballast. All have their advantages and drawbacks. Kind of depends on what you want to do and how much cash you have to play with.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, please, let's not start the old (very old) argument about track versus battery power here, in front of a poor guy trying to get started. 

Why do you all jump in like this? I pointed out there are DCC options in LS that aren't available for N scale, and all of a sudden we have a war going on. 

Relax, take a sip, and let our new friend read all about the options *in some other thread.*


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 Jun 2011 07:54 AM 
Actually, if a newbie came on and said he wanted to run battery, and a track power guy mentioned going to track power, all heck would break loose. 

But a simple question about power feeds (OBVIOUSLY track power), and the "battery alternative" rears it's head along with the sales pitch/advantages. 

So I merely did a counterpoint. 

And I run 6-7 hours, so your batteries, especially if running lights and smoke, do not have that capacity in normal circumstances, unless you pack an e8 shell full of them. 

Just have been making the point lately that we don't need to try to change people's minds right out of the chute. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I have stainless track, I don't clean it any more than a battery guy. 



If you look at my first reply, you'll note I never tried to switch him over and in fact said you'd be along to advise him.

Your counter point was overboard and beyond a counter... to me!

When 'smoke units' put out black smoke I'll care.... and short run times are old battery chenistry woes.... big help you are...

There's nothing wrong with pointing out an alternative and letting our 'new' guy make up his own mind, besides he has DCC in N so he's aware of that side.

I think it might be more of a dis service to keep it a secret!

Finally as I use track power to charge my batteries as it runs, my run times outlast my desire to run.... you can quibble on the hours or minutes all you like.

Counter point or doing the same thing? All **** breaking loose??? Geeze! I don't think I've seen that.

Regards,
John


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## stu30 (Jun 5, 2011)

I am living in Australia Perth. The summer gets to 35-40 and the winter gets down to 15-20 on average. The dirt is very dry.I have a dcc system for my n scale so I would like to go that way but I am open to other options.Thanks for the advice so far.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony Walsham is a regular here on MLS. He makes and sells battery and RC installations. He lives somewhere in Australia. Go to one of his posts and send him a PM (click on the send message under his name on the left). He might know of fellow large scalers in the Perth area that you could talk to.

Chuck


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Now what the heck does suggesting the guy go to Tony when the guys says he has a DCC system to use. What part of battery do you folks not get on a thread started out as DCC Later RJD


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I was not telling him to contact Tony about power, I was suggesting that he contact Tony to see if there were any people in Perth into large scale, so that he could see some layouts and get hands on information! Tony probably has a good idea as to where "G" gauge (gage) are located "down under".


Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Really RJ, are you folks that insecure? 
That Tony should be ignored because he's tainted by batteries? 
He's very knowledgeable regarding down under and could be a good someone to know., inspite of his being batty! ha ha 

Ya know when it comes down to it, the guy spending the money gets to make up his/her own mind. 
I think it was Greg's alledged counter point that stirred up the battery folks to be on the defensive... to counter untruths. 
This is in the beginers section, not track power/DCC, anybody can post here... 

I like you DCC guys, when you are positive, but I can do without negative people of any OS inclination.... 
From my 1st post above; "DCC is popular and you'll get expert advice here from Greg E and others.... " 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry John, response not meant to you specifically... it was Pete's, and Airwire is not really supportive of track power, and it's NOT DCC strictly.. but I'll say it again, the guy asks about track power feeders. 

WHY BRING UP BATTERY? 

You battery folks would go nuts if I brought up track powered DCC if a newbie asked about Airwire and battery. 

It's the same thing... track power guys aren't insecure, it's my observation that it's the converse... 

I'm really tired of the "double standard"... "don't pick on the battery guys"... OK, don't pick on the track powered guys... 

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 Jun 2011 12:25 PM 
Sorry John, response not meant to you specifically... it was Pete's, and Airwire is not really supportive of track power, and it's NOT DCC strictly.. but I'll say it again, the guy asks about track power feeders. 

WHY BRING UP BATTERY? 

You battery folks would go nuts if I brought up track powered DCC if a newbie asked about Airwire and battery. 

It's the same thing... track power guys aren't insecure, it's my observation that it's the converse... 

I'm really tired of the "double standard"... "don't pick on the battery guys"... OK, don't pick on the track powered guys... 

Greg 

Greg: I want to become a commercial truck driver, so I bought a Formula 1 race car to learn on. Is there any one here that could offer some insight as to how I could modify the race car to help me learn how to drive a multi-trailer semi-truck?

Please don't confuse me by suggesting some alternative method of learning, as that was not my question.

In other words:

There is reallly nothing wrong with bringing up battery power in this context. It is a method that works for some people and they see it as a better way of doing things and offer it as a suggestion to eliminate some of the problems that they perceive as associated with track power. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I suggest forgetting all them thar problems with Elek-tro-nih- sissi-kals altogether and go Live Steam... no track to clean and no batteries to charge, and the singed eyebrow look could be come quite a fashion statement.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've given reasoning why it's not really helpful to bring up battery when someone asked about track power feeders, and someone brings up battery power. 

Now you bring up steam.... 

Seems like you are reinforcing what I am saying... maybe I'll just quote these posts and suggest DCC on every battery power thread by a newcomer... using your "reasoning" or lack thereof... 

Just to be really clear, your reasoning that: "There is really nothing wrong with bringing up battery power in this context." 

is because: "It is a method that works for some people and they see it as a better way of doing things and offer it as a suggestion to eliminate some of the problems that they perceive as associated with track power. " 

So, using your reasoning, I can bring up DCC on a steam thread, because "it works for some people" (me) and I see it as a better way of doing things, and to eliminate burned fingers? 

That's your words and reasoning... OK, so game on.. (not really... that would just put me at the same level as the track power bashers) 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Time, gentlemen, PLEASE!!! 

Later, 

K


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 06 Jun 2011 03:08 PM 
Time, gentlemen, PLEASE!!! 

Later, 

K 
Amen to that! This thread is exactly why I don't post/participate as much as I'd like here because of all the bickering going on. And it's doesn't make a difference to the topic either. Makes me wonder what it's really like at the get togethers, I'm surprised fist fights don't break out. They're just toys, play with them and enjoy them.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 06 Jun 2011 11:42 AM 
Really RJ, are you folks that insecure? 
That Tony should be ignored because he's tainted by batteries? 
He's very knowledgeable regarding down under and could be a good someone to know., inspite of his being batty! ha ha 

Ya know when it comes down to it, the guy spending the money gets to make up his/her own mind. 
I think it was Greg's alledged counter point that stirred up the battery folks to be on the defensive... to counter untruths. 
This is in the beginers section, not track power/DCC, anybody can post here... 

I like you DCC guys, when you are positive, but I can do without negative people of any OS inclination.... 
From my 1st post above; "DCC is popular and you'll get expert advice here from Greg E and others.... " 

John 

I was not going to get involved in this debate. Primarily because it was from the outset, a thread about DCC. Now it seems the thread starter is also interested in hearing about other methods of powering his trains. 
It never ceases to amaze me the level of paranoia displayed when the pet power foibles of any respondent are questioned.
I think which method of powering locos (other than regular DC) is the most popular, has been comprehensively demonstrated in a recent thread. I have only one suggestion for those here that don't like the result, get over it.










Actually you cannot click on a send message function at MLS for me. I have it turned OFF.
To send me a message please click on the RCS Website link and then Contact RCS.

BTW Tony makes Electronic Speed Control Systems that run on track and/or battery power. You can even use DCC voltage on the track if you wish.

stu30, one thing to remember about battery power, leaving aside the cost benefits of going battery, is you can take your locos anywhere[/b] and run them, as long as they fit on the track.
Try doing that with any track powered locos.
Before you make up your mind about anything, investigate the options. You need to realise that, over time Mother Nature can have deleterious effects on track power. She has been very kind to me since 1988. Her effects cause many Large Scalers to question the wisdom of track power and provide me with a steady income solving the problems.

There is quite a healthy Garden Railway scene in Perth. Many of whom use my R/C stuff.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Stu, 

Such a lovely introduction you've had to MyLargeScale. I hope we don't turn any more of your threads into arguments.


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