# Cab Control Cable



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

While the DCC specification appears to set the signaling parameters I haven't found anything that really describes the cabling in detail.

Are all the DCC Cab to Booster and Accessory Decoders the same pin outs and signals? For example can an EASY-DCC controller / Booster plug directly into an NCE mini panel or decoder? Or, possibly more interesting, an NCE Power Cab Controller into a CVP ZoneMaster Booster?


I noticed the NCE calls out their cable specification. I haven't found in in CVP product documentation. I haven't looked in the DigiTrax documentation yet.


Tom Bray


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

none of that is the same .... every co. does there own thing


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

MRC uses a standard cat 5 network cable


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, 

Keep digging as most of the companys say in there literature how to hook up to other company products.. Most boosters can be hooked up to other command stations.. Some throttles can work on other systems with a interface box.. Hope this helps.. 

BulletBob


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## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

Tom-

Please remember the NMRA standards and RPs (recommended practices) only govern the communication protocol along the rails. For the most part, the cab bus protocol is manufacturer specific. In other words, unless specifically stated in the manual, you can't use Brand A's throttle with Brand B's command station. While a cable connector from Brand A's cab may physically fit into the socket on Brand B's command station, the cab probably won't work. Depending upon the pin-outs, the results may also prove disasterous.

There are exceptions. Massoth has announced a conversion box to allow a wireless Massoth Navigator to work with XpressNet compatible command stations (e.g., Lenz). In fact, there are a number of third party throttles available for XpressNet, ranging from PDAs to kits which allow a cordless phone to act as a wireless throttle.

Best regards,
Bob


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I guess that answers of that question, even if that isn't what I wanted to hear. 

It does appear that there is a pseudo RS485 or RS422 specification embedded in the NMRA specification for communication with the power station (RP 9.1.2) which, as was stated above, is only a recommended practice.

I did see that CVP has both an opto isolated input and one that isn't for connecting to their ZoneMaster Boosters which seems to conform with the NMRA Recommended Practice. Other vendors don't seem to be quite so obvious about their interfaces.


My big issue right now is that I have the MTH DCS system running on two of the tracks but I already have one streetcar that isn't compatible (I am sure there will be more) and I want to control that too. 

It looks like for about the same amount as having someone do a PS2 upgrade on the LGB Streetcar I can add the base EasyDCC system from CVP which should power the trolley just fine (especially based on the post from RWBRASHER in my LGB and DCS topic). 

But, knowing that ultimately MTH is at least talking about adding DCC support, I want to be able to upgrade the whole system to support DCC in the future. If I do that I will want a really nice RF cab controller which I haven't made up my mind on.


I will probably run DCC to control the trackside stuff since it interfaces with a computer (first round will be JMRI, but who knows what I will do after that).



Tom Bray


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, the commands in a DCC system are usually generated in the command station, not the handhelds. 

I believe the same is for the TIU in a DCS system. 

So, Trying to connect several handhelds to a common bus to control DCC and DCS could not be. 

On top of this, the basic signals for DCC and DCS are vastly different. One is a frequency modulated square wave, the other is a carrier on top of a constant DC or AC signal. 

I'm writing this guessing what you are thinking of, you did not really ask this question in your post, so I apologize if I'm barking up the wrong tredd (woof). 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

My take is that I will run DCS on mainline big stuff and use DCC on the inner lines and shunts, logging, etc. The mainline must be insulated from the inner line except when crossing a particular loco over from one to the other.(the other system needs to be shut down to do this "transfer". 


I note that MTH is focusing on mainline locos, while DCC allows for short line,shunt locos, ERA locos etc and multiple manufacturers, keeping in mind that DCC is not as feature rich. However when shunting or logging, how many features does one need per sae?

And yes computer automation of DCC is permitted I believe. (Sim programmes..) DCS is limited to "Macros" (1.5 hours) if people here are familiar with Microsoft Excel. 


My next DCS will be a mainline Diesel(s)... My first DCC will be a Massoth control system with my loco purchases (shay) dedicated with Massoth decoders. This if I have my math correct. 

As for battery.... don't know yet. 


Room for both DCS and DCC however. I will never give up DCS due to its unique features and simplicity. My layout will allow for both technologies with the track design allowing for exclusive use of one technology as needed. 


gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd like to know where DCC is not as feature rich. DCS has some unique things like absolute speed control via a tachometer in the loco, and very rich sound systems from the only manufacturer, but there's tons of things DCC does that the DCS system does not do at all. You should take a QSI manual and put it next to your MTH manual and do a comparison. 

Yes, computer automation of DCC is permitted, it is available in lots of ways, and certain systems like the Zimo will record motion and trigger inputs to automate trains. 

I like the MTH stuff, and their sound systems (except for the cab chatter) and the smoke units and the quillable whistle.... all great stuff... and when the next generation of MTH locos come out with DCC capability, I may buy a few. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

GG:

My offer still stands - free evalution of the ZIMO DCC before you make a decision on whihc DCC system to buy.

As in terms of feature rich, I doubt that strongly. I don't think there is a feature in DCS that ZIMO DCC can't do. Granted some DCC systems offer bare bone DCC and for that it might be true. I suggest you ask Greg who has recently received a ZIMO system to play with - including all the user guides. There is a ton of stuff in ZIMO DCC.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/09/2009 7:20 PM
I'd like to know where DCC is not as feature rich. DCS has some unique things like absolute speed control via a tachometer in the loco, and very rich sound systems from the only manufacturer, but there's tons of things DCC does that the DCS system does not do at all. You should take a QSI manual and put it next to your MTH manual and do a comparison. 

Yes, computer automation of DCC is permitted, it is available in lots of ways, and certain systems like the Zimo will record motion and trigger inputs to automate trains. 

I like the MTH stuff, and their sound systems (except for the cab chatter) and the smoke units and the quillable whistle.... all great stuff... and when the next generation of MTH locos come out with DCC capability, I may buy a few. 

Regards, Greg 



Greg, time to have some fun ... git over to chat ! your turn my man ... 


But hold on ... I need to join my wife for a movie tonight so we may need to delay this great intellectual discussion...


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I already figured out the trying to run DCS and DCC on the same track isn't going to happen. The DCS manual says that a switching power supply causes havoc, I can just imagine what the DCC signal would do to it.


I am designing the layout so that it is going to be pretty easy to swap which tracks do what. The design has 3 main lines, each inside the other. The most inside rail is not connected to the other two and may remain that way. The other two share a siding between them using 4 wide Aristo turnouts and two wyes. These can also be kept separate from each other because the siding will only be power by one rail set or the other (or by flipping a switch, none of the above).

For wiring, which I don't have pictures of yet, I am starting off with a set of 5.1 speaker banana jacks from Loews. These seem to be the heaviest duty connectors I have found so far between Radio Shack, Loews, Best Buy and Home Depot. These are going into a double wide outdoor outlet box with a full plastic outdoor sytle cover. To power the layout the power packs have banana plugs on them (the MTH TIU took care of that), and [;ug them into the appropriate track connections depending on what is to run where. The current configuration will have one power pack run the two MTH trains on the outside pair of loops using the TIU. I have another power pack for the streetcar which will go on the inner track. All I will have to do is put a DCC booster between the power pack and the inner track and it should work.



As far as which is easier to use, I can't really comment on DCC. I have figured out the dance necessary to get DCS to talk, which got a lot easier with the my new F7 set because the manual shows a picture of the train and where the + voltage needs to go. The nifty part of DCS is that once the engines are talking, going through the new engine setup is a breeze. After that it is sort of in the neighborhood of "it just works".

DCS is a closed system as far as I can tell. I haven't tried hooking the serial port up to the computer and looking to see if there is any data there (maybe I should start with a scope ... starting to sound like work). 

DCC has information about how to use it and there is an open source example on how to talk to it (I'll take any code examples I can get my hands on even if all I do is read it and decide how I want to do it). My railroad will have a computer helping it and maybe even run it from my IPod. But first I want to see trains running around it, they can only do that on the outside loop right now.


My big concern is buying something and then finding out it isn't what I want ... This forum really helps on the count.


Tom


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Tom, 

We think the same. You are much more advanced than I from a technical perspective and I like your track set up. 

You are correct: DCS (MTH) is brain dead, logical and very user friendly Vs DCC with a million and one setups to happen to make it easy... 


The risk we face is which DCC system is best in my opinion. 

I am leaning Massoth, Zimo is the competition and both are European ... and pricy. 


I need to do a spreadsheet on both. 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I may be able to help soon Gavin, I have a Zimo system I am evaluating. I volunteered to investigate some programming difficulties on an NCE system, and Axel sent me a Zimo system, because the switch motor we are trying out was programmed on that system. It was actually something I missed when using the NCE system, so all is understood now. 

But I get to play with the Zimo system until the BTS. It has a ton of features, and it will take me some time to absorb them all, but I'm having fun. 

Tom, I use banana plugs and jacks on my layout, and I run pretty high current, so you should be in good shape, they will handle what you want. 

I use the stacking ones to connect my "power districts" together, so if I need to run a DC loco, I just pull them apart and reconnect to DCC and/or DC. Just a few seconds and I convert one loop over to DC. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/09/2009 7:20 PM
........DCS has some unique things like absolute speed control via a tachometer in the loco, and very rich sound systems from the only manufacturer, 




I will bring my sound with me to the BTO - that's the only thing you don't have yet and I demonstrate to you - at minimum - an equivalent sound. On the subject of absolute speed control (and I haven't found this in other systems - but didn't read their user guides to a 100%) ZIMO has come out with their version of absolute speed control - called max voltage. Since the voltage on your track will differ you can say max voltage is 16V (regardless that your track voltage maybe at feeding point 24V). So now max speed is always now a % of max voltage than a a % of track voltage. Each loco should also be put through an "initiation" ride and then all decoder parameters are automatically adjusted to accommodate this loco best (only with ZIMO decoders of course). 

In terms of complexity - you can take a ZIMO system out of the box take a DCC decoder equipped loco and you are up and running. It just happens to be that DCC enthusiasts then want to go into the nitty griddy and configure many things, so all the many register in formations are for those who want the optimal behavior. With that said I can tell you from studying other manuals, ZIMO has the most advanced set of decoder parameters - which leaves nothing to be desired. 

All of it add to the price, e.g. FPGAs are not cheap which is required for upward compatibility. The ZIMO system has been constantly upgraded (now with the addition of railcom and 20 function control). This hardware costs money out of your pocket to protect you down the road to not even spend more money. ZIMO uses AC into the system so it does its own stabilization and the square wave output have top notch drivers for best signal stability. That hardware costs money. But on the later one you save because you can buy now a power supply 24V/10A for $125 from us (Train-LI-USA DCC Brick). 

As with many things in live the devil is in the detail and I may have said this before BMW, Porsche and other don't' just like to charge $60,000 more than Chevy to make $60,000 more profit - no they charge $60,000 more for an endless set of features that contribute to your safety, long term performance of your car, reliability, driveability .... on and on and on. It amazes me that it is readily understood when buying a car, but it seems to me that many think DCC is DCC why should I pay more for one than the other. And like driving, when you are 16 the and you drive any car for the first time - it doesn't matter - yahoo I am driving...... but with experience you learn the limitations and the desire grows to do something else - e.g. take a crappy car and pout special shocks in there, special spark plugs, upgrade the transmission electronic, the automotive electronic, high end tires, stabilizers .... you get the picture. Unfortunately you can't do this with DCC, you can't buy a brand X and put square wave stabilizers in there, unplug the central chip and put somebodies FPGA in there for better performance and features so you are stuck.

I welcome any detailed questions because I am trying to shed some light onto this.

Hope everybody has a great mothers day - do good to her - at the minimum she is supporting your hobby.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/09/2009 11:24 PM
I may be able to help soon Gavin, I have a Zimo system I am evaluating. I volunteered to investigate some programming difficulties on an NCE system, and Axel sent me a Zimo system, because the switch motor we are trying out was programmed on that system. It was actually something I missed when using the NCE system, so all is understood now. 

But I get to play with the Zimo system until the BTS. It has a ton of features, and it will take me some time to absorb them all, but I'm having fun. 

Tom, I use banana plugs and jacks on my layout, and I run pretty high current, so you should be in good shape, they will handle what you want. 

I use the stacking ones to connect my "power districts" together, so if I need to run a DC loco, I just pull them apart and reconnect to DCC and/or DC. Just a few seconds and I convert one loop over to DC. 

Regards, Greg 







Greg, Axel is making some powerful statements. Can you validate with your trial unit? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm hobbying on this over the next month, and will return the system to Axel at the BTS on June 6-7. One of the features he mentioned requires a zimo decoder, which I do not have one of. 

I can tell you that the quality level of the construction, and the fit and finish of the case and main unit are top notch. There are small touches here and there that others might not notice, but even the quality of the connectors to the main unit are a cut above what I normally see, not plastic, but glass filled epoxy. A small thing, but these connectors are more expensive, and stronger and better. I'll be putting my results on my web site. I'll look into the items Axel mentioned here. I will say that it has an interesting feature, it has 3 "levels" of operator "control", where there are simplified menus, as well as intermediate and advanced menus. 

The screen changes color according to what mode you are in, basically, green for locos, red for accessory control, and yellow for programming. 

There are a lot of features, so I'll see what I get through by the BTS. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Most DCC systems accept AC or DC power as an input and internally regulate the track voltage. 

Few DCC systems use FPGA's but instead use EEPROMs to allow firmware updates. 

Most DCC systems work out of the box without any programming required, although it is reasonable to program a unique address for each newly converted loco. This is a 10 seconds (or less) operation that can be done either on the programming track or on the main track. 

If you are looking for high current connectors, go to an auto parts store and ask for a "flat" trailer connector. These come in various pin configurations, the 2 pin version being the one that you want. They are cheap, rugged, weather resistant and handle high current.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 05/10/2009 10:15 AM

If you are looking for high current connectors, go to an auto parts store and ask for a "flat" trailer connector. These come in various pin configurations, the 2 pin version being the one that you want. They are cheap, rugged, weather resistant and handle high current.



That is an excellent suggestion.

I have always been leery to use banana plugs for high current applications since they were never designed for that.
Banana plugs are typically used in audio equipment, patch cords and test equipment.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg is correct. 

DCC doesn't offer absolute speed control yet but will be implementing this soon. 

From the mrs website about the Zimo decoder: 

* Km/h - defined speed control as alternative to today's usual method of percent scale graduation. 

To interpret DCC speed steps (128 in modern systems and decoders) as absolute speed in km/h or mph - actually an obvious idea and yet, was only recently taken up in public discussions. The proper setting of the already present CV #5 (top speed) does not bring the desired results. ZIMO puts this idea now into practice with three steps: 

A new CV as conversion factor, which takes into account the scale (HO, O, 1 etc.) and length of the calibration track (see below); to be entered with the help of a simple formula. 

-During a calibration procedure, the loco is driven at a given speed for a predetermined distance (e.g. 15 feet). Passing the start and end of the line is recorded by activating a function (semi-automatic procedure) or a decoder input (Reed switch or similar for fully automated procedure). 

- This kind of control is not just for a visually pleasing drivability, which is the main task of today's load regulation or back-EMF, but rather to hold a desired speed exactly, in km/h or the distance to reach a full stop. This new demand is reached by continually calculating the already driven distance and applying the necessary changes. The required data (EMF values, taken up to 200 times per second) and the processing power is available in all current ZIMO loco decoders. 

Using km/h or mph for controlling loco speed adds a number of other operational advantages; from the strict observance of speed limits to the precise calculation of arrival times at the next station. Consist operations should also profit from such precise speed control - although field tests have yet to be performed to confirm this. 


But in general, DCC can offer a lot more features and capabilities than DCS and one can choose from a wide range of manufacturers to suit every need and pocketbook. 

Running both DCS and DCC on the same layout presents some interesting challenges unless one keeps the two sections completely isolated electrically. It's not really clear to me how a loco would transition from one to the other even if the decoder in the loco can handle both protocols. 
During the transition, the outputs of the DCC booster and the DCS output will be bridged which could lead to some interesting results.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Interesting and makes a positive comment re DCS and its ability to lash and sync locos. Very suitable for mainline service and leaves DCC for the shunting and other activities in the inner loop. Yes, I say that the two loops need to be isolated. When transitioning say, a DCC loco over to the mainline, the DCS locos would need to be powered down and on the siding. I did just this on my livingroom test track. I had my MTH Triplex and Hudson on the line and on this same line I had placed my new DC 4-4-0. Set the throttle at zero, did NOT disconnect the TIU unit, applied power then slowly throttled up. The MTH units stayed quiet, the 4-4-0 did what it was supposed to for a DC unit.

I am sure that there is a way to automate transitioning between loops without having to lean over and flick a switch. 



Interesting. 


gg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Wow - we went from a question about the cab controls cable used with DCC systems to lashing and synching locos on DCS and running DCC and DCS on the same layout - all in just a few posts. 
I don't think I have ever seen another thread go off topic so quickly. 

But then again, synching locos, I assume that means getting them to run at the same speed for identical throttle settings, and transitioning trains from the DCC to the DCS section of the layout is a much more interesting topic. These two should probably be each handled in their own separate thread since they have nothing to do with each other and have certainly nothing to do with the original topic. 

If I understand DCS Synching correctly - there is no equivalent with DCC that automatically adjusts all the speed curves of all the engines so they run at the same speed over the whole throttle speed range.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/11/2009 7:22 AM
Yes, I say that the two loops need to be isolated. When transitioning say, a DCC loco over to the mainline, the DCS locos would need to be powered down and on the siding. I did just this on my livingroom test track. I had my MTH Triplex and Hudson on the line and on this same line I had placed my new DC 4-4-0. Set the throttle at zero, did NOT disconnect the TIU unit, applied power then slowly throttled up. The MTH units stayed quiet, the 4-4-0 did what it was supposed to for a DC unit.

I am sure that there is a way to automate transitioning between loops without having to lean over and flick a switch. 



Interesting. 


gg 




Are you talking DCC or DC?
Your post starts about transitioning a DCC loco to the DCS mainline, but then your test talks about a DC loco, or is that just a typo?


You can run a DCC loco on a DC layout (or a DC loco ona DCC layout with zero-stretching) and I assume you can also run a DCS loco on a DC layout, but you sure can't run a DCC loco in the DCC mode on a DCS layout.

So what are we talking about? 

If you want to run the DCC loco on the mainline which is DCS, you either need to power that main line using DCC or use MTH locos that can do both DCS and DCC, or revert back to DC operation.
At least that's the way I see it in a nutshell.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Correct. I was referring to DC on my test track. Yes, DCS and DCC do not mix and thus the isolated inner and outer loops. In my case, DSC outer loop and DCC on the inner. By transitioning a DCC loco to the outer loop, the DCS system must be silienced and then the outer loop becomes DCC for the purposes intended. 

In other words, two independent systems each being used to take advantage of its strengths. 

gg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

OK, fair enough. 

I don't really know what the specific strengths of DCS are compared to DCC. 

But any system that is proprietary and where I get locked in to one company is automatically a 'non-starter' for me unless there is absolutely no alternative. 
In addition to that, I found that I could not mix MTH equipment with existing Aristo, USA Trains and LGB equipment size-wise, so MTH and their DCS system was never a consideration for me. 

Knut


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I don't see that lashing up locomotives is that far from cab controls ... it all comes back to the user interface anyway and what features make it easy to do what you want to do.

By the way, I looked at the website for the Zimo DCC unit - it does look like it is a very good product. I am not sure playing with it with only my LGB streetcar would be a good demo though.


Tom Bray


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

Just a few more comments.

I can already see that I will end up with 3 different control options on my layout. The DCS and DCC systems plus an RC system for live steam.

The only common thread in this is that I want to be able to at a minimum have the DCS and DCC control the turnouts and trackside stuff. It looks like basing all that in DCC with the computer to help it along is the best way to go, then add an interface to the DCS system to tell the computer what it wants.

Tom


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a few more comments. 

I can already see that I will end up with 3 different control options on my layout. The DCS and DCC systems plus an RC system for live steam. 



Hi Tom, 

Consider the use of the soon to be available Massoth DRC300. It is an r/c reciever which acts as a self-contained DCC command station. You hook any DCC decoder to it and run it from your Navigator handheld. It can run on track or battery power, and is ideal for running live steam if you have or plan to have the Navigator anyway. Using a Massoth 8FL function decoder you can run 2 servos proportionally from your Navigator. 
If you go to the Massoth forum you can see all the specifics on the DRC300 etc. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, I think your statement is wise. Run all your "accessories" from DCC, but the problem will be that you will be changing the power to the tracks, so be sure to run your switch controllers from a separate power bus, not the rails. If you were DCC only you could just hook the controllers to the rails. So just run a heavy gauge pair of wires to where you will have switch machines. 

There are a lot of options on controlling switch machines with DCC, from self contained units where the decoder and the switch motor are combined (like the new Train-Li stuff) or the traditional 1 to 4 unit controller that will power 1-4 conventional switch motors, to something more exotic like I have done, where the switch motors are air powered, and controlled by DCC. 

You have a ton of options here. 

The other thing is that since MTH will be adding DCC compatibility to all it's large scale locos very soon, you might eventually wind up running nothing but DCC and DC for all your locos. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

One heck of a thread. 

Keith, would you have a quick link to this Massoth forum? 

Greg, smooth I say and very logical.  Clairify your comments - DCS will work under both AC and DC power. So your comment re accessories confuses me. 

Tom, my goal is to build up to live steam as well... best of all worlds and this Massoth concept is interesting - saves money down the line. 










gg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/11/2009 4:47 PM
The other thing is that since MTH will be adding DCC compatibility to all it's large scale locos very soon, you might eventually wind up running nothing but DCC and DC for all your locos. 

Regards, Greg



My thoughts as well especially with the Massoth DCS300 that Keith mentioned for live steam.

You can use any DCC decoder with the DCS300, but you must use the Massoth throttle with that unit.

However, on the plus side, the Massoth throttle (Navigator) will also be compatible with Xpressnet; compatibility with LocoNet still seems to be a problem in the US.


http://www.massoth.com/en/produkte/8130001.en.php


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

GG,
Here is the link to the Massoth forum and website.
Steve

http://forum.massoth.com/

http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a link to more specifics on the DRC 300: 

http://www.shourtline.swl4.com/DRC_300_Basics_en_Functional_Overview.pdf 

If you have any more questions on it, I would suggest you call Klaus at Massoth as I'm sure he will be able to help. 

Keith


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

thanks guys. Much homework to do here. 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry GG.... the accessory control for DCC is basically one pair of wires, the power and signal are together, but since he is thinking of running DCS some places and DCC some others, and I believe DC, then using the rails as power for switch machines is not a good idea, thus the separate "bus", and I recommended he use DCC as power and control, for the reasons I gave. 

NCE also makes a handheld that has the command station in it too, and has been available for some time, called the "PowerCab", which can also be used as a normal wired cab. I have one. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

To transition between any power form and any other, there needs to be a transition track of some kind that can be switched. This assumes that the train can deal with any power form that it might see. 

Switch the transition track to the source driving the track that the train is coming from, drive the whole train onto the transition track, stop the train, change the power form to match the track that the train is going to, drive the train off the transition track. 

The transition track could easily be the whole 2nd loop. I switch power this way on three loops on the GIRR Mtn Div when the turnouts are set to move from one loop to another. When the loops are connected, ONE power form takes over BOTH loops. Since I installed DCC and converted all the locos, I don't use the PWC system anymore, but the original wiring and logic is still there. 

The GIRR also uses DCC, in this case what used to be Cab 2 is switched between DCC and PWC. I have, at times, run a train from a block that had DCC on it onto a block that has PWC on it. Neither system has liked it much, but nothing has blown up.... yet. I solved that problem by not switching any blocks to Cab 1 which is PWC only. I use only Cab 2 so that the entire layout is either PWC or DCC. 

The HO layout is the same arrangement, Cab B is switched between DC and DCC. Since all the locos have been converted to DCC there, it's the same situation. I don't use either Cab A at all or DC on Cab B.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I never really considered being able to go from one set of tracks on one voltage or control settings to another. 

For someone like me to do that I would havea to be able to get enough information about how it really works and decide if it was acceptable (the engineer in me comes out and it is a locomotive engineer I am refering to).

I find that Massoth decoder very interesting along with the radio based station controller. That may turn out to be a fairly cost effective solution over all, even if the initial outlay is more. 

I have to dig into the details of this more before I make a decision. I may also do something custom for the turnouts and such so that I can minimize wiring between the layout and the stuff that controls and powers it. I think all the power supplies, controllers and such are going to be on some kind of a cart so I don't have to worry about it being outside all the time.

This thread has ended up giving me a lot more insite into this stuff. I also have some options that I probably never would have found just looking for it.

Tom Bray


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

take a look at the link. The method is shown in a simple schematic 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips6/prime_power_tips.html 

It takes exactly one DPDT switch to implement. I do it with the accessory switch on an LGB switch motor


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Tom, 

I plan to do a solid comparison of Massoth Vs the ZIMO system as offered by Train Li. Get Axel to send you the info that he sent me. It is filled with neet features and I really like the capacitance features on some of their decoders. ( like MTH, but MTH uses a battery) 

The other thing is think tech support... when there is an issue, will your friendly distributor be there to get you out of a bind. Critical in the type of game that we play here. 

thirdly, is your distributor able to do installs on locos that you purchase and ship to them or alternately that they purchase on your behalf and specification and then do the install and ship the final product to you??? 

All of the above is critical for me and my location up in Polar Bear country









gg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/12/2009 4:09 PM
I plan to do a solid comparison of Massoth Vs the ZIMO system as offered by Train Li. Get Axel to send you the info that he sent me. It is filled with neet features and I really like the capacitance features on some of their decoders. ( like MTH, but MTH uses a battery)




That sounds like a great and interesting exercise.
I hope you are planning to publish your comparison on MLS.

Remember that with DCC, at least in theory (and mostly also in practice), any DCC decoder should work with any DCC system, so the ideal solution may well be a system from one manufacturer and decoders from another.

The "capacitance feature" can really be added to any decoder. There is nothing unique about that. The newer Lenz decoders actually do one better in that regard, they can pick up the DCC signal even if the rails and pickups are totally insulated from each other. I haven't heard of any other decoder manufacturer who has implemented that.

Knut


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## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Knut-


***

The "capacitance feature" can really be added to any decoder. There is nothing unique about that. 


***



True. However, some of the newer decoders are implementing interesting features. For example, some manufacturers automatically disable the capacitor during programming. If you added a capacitor to a DCC decoder in the past, it needed to be manually disconnected during programming. (This meant adding a SPST switch somewhere.)

Best regards,
Bob


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I assume that the meaning of the capacitance is the use of two capacitors in series with the power feed to isolate the decoder from the rails.

I plan on running a separate power run for all the trackside equipment relative to the rails. That way I can still control routing and all that stuff regardless of what is or isn't on the rails.


In my grand scheme of things, I plan on having all the sidings that can be fed from either side have a DPDT switch with a center off controlling power to them. That way I can feed the siding from either side or isolate it completely. That way I should be able to transfer a train from one power source to another without the risk of shorting anything out. I am still working out all the details.

Here are a couple of pictures of what the system looks like right now. There is only the outside loop in addition to the stuff on the bench. This was actually staged because I needed to know if everything would fit ... it didn't ... so I had to make some adjustments.




















Tom Bray


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The capacitors are used to store energy so the decoder can keep functioning during brief power interruptions, like dirty track or poor power pickup. Like a small rechargeable battery. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. the trackwork looks nice. A suggestion though, you have an S curve right there on the left hand picture... if you made it a little gentler, it you give you a little more operational reliability.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Tom Bray on 05/18/2009 5:31 PM
I assume that the meaning of the capacitance is the use of two capacitors in series with the power feed to isolate the decoder from the rails.




No Tom,

It's a single capacitor connected between V+ and ground of the decoder. 

You also need the traditional current limiting charge resistor and the parallel discharge diode and possiibly a small choke.

There are schematics of various arrangements all over the net. 


All it does is provide power to the decoder when the track power is interrupted and then recharges from track power when it's available again.
But that needs to be done without affecting the integrity of the DCC signal, or the programming, especially when one does programming on the main, and one also needs to make sure there is no interference with the ABC system.


knut


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I still have to actually play with the DCC stuff so that I understand how it really works. I am still agonizing over what to get. Since I only have the Trolley that will respond to DCC, I am leaning toward the base EasyDCC system since it isn't very expensive - if I change my mind I am not out a huge amount and I can probably reuse the booster with a different system. I was looking at the really nice European systems and I think, assuming I actually had the money, I would rather buy a live steam locomotove right now (I have an Accucraft picked out that I think would be just about perfect - it is close enough that I wouldn't have to scratch build the General that my wife has requested) which is going to cost about same as either the Zimo or Massoth systems. 

I have the DCS system working pretty well and it runs the F7 set and the Hudson locomotive. I have noticed that at the far end of the loop, I have no control over the locomotives, so I need to add more wires. I love the radio based remote control feature of DCS so whatever I end up with for DCC will ultimately need to be run by a radio.

Now that I have researched it more, I am finding out that the bi-directional control is all done using the station controller protocols which makes everything vendor specific ... grump! 

My current idea is to add an AIU interface to DCS system so that the DCS system can send control requests to the computer that will translate them into DCC requests. I just have to figure out what I want to use to get remote data into the computer. A printer port I/O card is starting to look really good right now, could also use a USB serial port.


As far as the S curve goes, I just purchased one of the Train-LI track benders, but haven't started to play with it yet. The only thing I have for curves right now are 10' diameter or sharper (8' and 5'). What I am thinking of doing is opening up the curve slightly, straighten the middle of the S curve and that should fix that problem. Initially, only the Trolley needs to negotiate that curver so I wasn't particularly worried, but now that I am considering what may run on over that track, I may want to rethink those curves. This is why I put things together and then look at it to see if it is what I really want. 

I have that RR Track program that allows you to build a layout but until you actually put it in place, you can't really tell how it will look. The RR Track program is great for estimaiting what pieces of track to use and how well it is going to fit togehter. I have figured out that if it doesn't really want to fit togther in the software, I have to help things meet up when I put the track down.



Tom


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Tom Bray on 05/26/2009 8:50 PM
I still have to actually play with the DCC stuff so that I understand how it really works. I am still agonizing over what to get. Since I only have the Trolley that will respond to DCC, I am leaning toward the base EasyDCC system since it isn't very expensive - if I change my mind I am not out a huge amount and I can probably reuse the booster with a different system. I was looking at the really nice European systems and I think, assuming I actually had the money, I would rather buy a live steam locomotove right now (I have an Accucraft picked out that I think would be just about perfect - it is close enough that I wouldn't have to scratch build the General that my wife has requested) which is going to cost about same as either the Zimo or Massoth systems. 

I have the DCS system working pretty well and it runs the F7 set and the Hudson locomotive. I have noticed that at the far end of the loop, I have no control over the locomotives, so I need to add more wires. I love the radio based remote control feature of DCS so whatever I end up with for DCC will ultimately need to be run by a radio.

Now that I have researched it more, I am finding out that the bi-directional control is all done using the station controller protocols which makes everything vendor specific ... grump! 

My current idea is to add an AIU interface to DCS system so that the DCS system can send control requests to the computer that will translate them into DCC requests. I just have to figure out what I want to use to get remote data into the computer. A printer port I/O card is starting to look really good right now, could also use a USB serial port.


As far as the S curve goes, I just purchased one of the Train-LI track benders, but haven't started to play with it yet. The only thing I have for curves right now are 10' diameter or sharper (8' and 5'). What I am thinking of doing is opening up the curve slightly, straighten the middle of the S curve and that should fix that problem. Initially, only the Trolley needs to negotiate that curver so I wasn't particularly worried, but now that I am considering what may run on over that track, I may want to rethink those curves. This is why I put things together and then look at it to see if it is what I really want. 

I have that RR Track program that allows you to build a layout but until you actually put it in place, you can't really tell how it will look. The RR Track program is great for estimaiting what pieces of track to use and how well it is going to fit togehter. I have figured out that if it doesn't really want to fit togther in the software, I have to help things meet up when I put the track down.



Tom 






Hi Tom... 

Check out the beginners forum and a thread called "Aristocraft Locomotive Upgrades".... read through and you will find an active discussion on DCC QSI being used in parallel with DCS.. 

As for track, I just laid my outer mainline using AML flex with the TrainLI dual bender and Split Jaw. For track and ways to lay it.... there is nothing comparable in my newbie world... ... AML / TRAIN -LI / SPLIT JAW forever....

That AML flex track can be bent and it retains gauge ! 


gg


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