# Adjusting LGB Rack Rail to humps & dips?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am going to add about 100' of LGB Rack Rail to the outside & garage layouts. Most of it will be easy enough to install but inside I have a fairly sharp hump at the top of a steep ramp (to get trains from the lower level to the upper level). It is a 9" rise in 10 - 12 feet. 

I am not sure how I am going to bend the rack rail down as it reaches the top of the ramp. One idea is that I might back the Ballenbergs up the ramp where I might not have to bend the rack rail but I don't like the idea of pushing hook & loop couplers up a steep ramp.

I have not yet checked to see if the Ballenbergs fit on the lower level but I expect they will.

I forgot how to calculate percent and degree of ramps (old age creeping in).

Ideas?

Jerry


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I convert to inches for rise and length 9 divided by 120 = 7.5% grade or 9 divided by 144 = 6.25% grade 
For those of us that are math challenged and KISS is in full effect 1" rise over 100" length = 1% 3" rise = 3%


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

fyrekop said:


> I convert to inches for rise and length 9 divided by 120 = 7.5% grade or 9 divided by 144 = 6.25% grade
> For those of us that are math challenged and KISS is in full effect 1" rise over 100" length = 1% 3" rise = 3%


PERFECT!!!

Thank you,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Spread the transition over a couple of feet using short pieces of track, such as LGB 1015. Put a few degrees change at each join, not all at once. The rack itself is quite flexible.

I put hooks on each end of the car so that they were double coupled and I always pushed the cars up grade and pulled them down. That is what they do on cog railroads in the real world. That keeps them from running away if they become uncoupled. you may have to cut the small black bar off the bottom end of the hooks. As i remember it touched the cogs on the rack and made a clicking sound.

Check this recent post for additional comments about my rack and some pictures.

http://forums.mylargescale.com/29-beginner-s-forum/66978-rack-section.html

As I recall the rack section went up a little over 20" over a length of about 12-15'. This is considerably steeper than your gradient.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Chuck,

These photos (taken over the years) will give you an idea of the major problem.

May 13, 2010












April 19, 2002

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Garage/Garageb.JPG



October 27, 2009

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Garage/Garagef.JPG



November 26, 2009

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Garage/Garagen.JPG​
The ramp is too short, too steep and ends too abruptly. 

The other ramps work pretty well except for trying to transition from an up ramp, through an R1 curve to a further up ramp. Bending R1 curves and putting a rack rail in them never worked for me but I gave up on that years ago (it does work - sort of).

I found that I could bend the brass track vertically by undercutting the rail head which solved the track problem but not the rack rail problem. I may try something along the same lines with a rack rail (perhaps just heating it).

It is just the one 10 - 12' ramp that may be a problem. The other 90' should just snap in.

November 9, 2005








​Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Use shorter segments of your curves and make all the flex at the rail joiners, a little bit at each join.

If you use the clamps for the rack it will flex and stay centered in the track. My rack had 1100 R1 curves and I didn't have any problems.

Don't bend the rail up or down, use shorter pieces. Cut your 1100 pieces in half if necessary.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Jerry
> 
> Don't bend the rail up or down, use shorter pieces. Cut your 1100 pieces in half if necessary.
> 
> Chuck


That may be what I need to do.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Jerry
> you may have to cut the small black bar off the bottom end of the hooks. As i remember it touched the cogs on the rack and made a clicking sound.
> 
> Chuck


Hi Chuck,

Back when I put in the first rack tracks I installed the LGB 64462 (grey) Rack Coupler Hooks which (if I remember correctly) took care of the hook dragging problem. 

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry you are correct. Being cheap, I just cut off the tab, since I don't use the LGB uncoupler strips.

I had forgotten about the special hooks for the Rack.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Jerry you are correct. Being cheap, I just cut off the tab, since I don't use the LGB uncoupler strips.
> 
> I had forgotten about the special hooks for the Rack.
> 
> Chuck


Hi Chuck,

I keep the tabs but they do occasionally catch on something and pull out.

The LGB Uncouplers have never worked well for me. I still have some both on a layout & in boxes. Someday I hope to find a better way of using then.

I try to keep everything factory original for the day things need to be sold.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Running Aristo-Craft & USAT trains over LGB Rack Rails?*

I have started laying the new LGB Rack Rail (on Aristo Stainless Steel Track) and realized I may run into a problem with Aristo and USAT trains that will be running over the track with the Rack Rail.

This track is from the indoor yard sidings feeding outdoors. The inside track is LGB brass but I will not be putting any rack rails on it. The track probably has less than a 10% grade and 10' diameter curves outside and 8' diameter curves indoors (without rack rails) with very little slope to the entry and exit of the rack railed track.

I anticipated no problems until I realized that I had not tested the Aristo and USAT locos to see if there will be any contact between the raised rack rail and the cow catchers, couplers etc. of the Aristo & USAT trains.

Most rolling stock will be placed on the track outdoors so it will not be running on the cogged tracks.

The other half of this racked track will be feeding a layout that is almost all LGB trains so if needed, I can get the right LGB hooks for them.

Top Red angle is to LGB yard

Bottom Red angle is to Aristo/USAT yard








I am committed now so one way or another I will have make the main section of the new rack rail track work with LGB, Aristo and USAT trains.

*Has anyone had problems running Aristo or USAT trains over LGB Rack Rail?*

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I never ran anything other than the rack engines and short cars. There may be a problem with longer cars and engines. The only way I know to find out if it will work is to test it out. The longer cars may need LGB 10000 or 10600 pieces in the transition rather than 10150. 

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Chuck,

My plan (and the reason I bought them years ago) is to use the LGB 20471 Ballenbergs (with Mogul Tenders that have Dietz Ballenberg sound units) as switchers to move sets of six LGB coaches from the inside layouts to the outside layout.

I stripped the idler gear on a 2119D Mogul trying to pull a consist up the ramp - which is why I decided to bring the Ballenbergs out. The plan is to drive the Mogul & tender outside and then to connect it with a coach set that has been brought out by a Ballenberg.

My inside rack rail never did work as I had hoped but I see no reason why this current outside plan should not work. A secondary plan is to use the Ballenbergs to move tank cars & coal hoppers from the lower level to the upper level and then outside where they can be pulled by the Aristo & USAT Diesels that cannot handle the R1 & R2 curves.

I'm still working it out in my head as I get the rack rail laid (the outside is now almost all laid),

I think the outside transition should work with no problems. Not so with the hump on the inside storage layout.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Installing LGB Rack Rail inside LGB R1 & R3 Turnouts (switches)?*

As I work on the new Rack Rail I think I may be able to get by without having to put the Rack Rail on any of the LGB R1 and R3 Turnouts but I am not sure if it will work or not.

The LGB Ballenberg Rack Locos only have a single cog wheel so if it hits a space without a cog rail, it can stall and stop. Hopefully I can figure out how to push & pull in a way to avoid this but if not...

Has anyone actually attached LGB Rack Rail (cog rail) inside an LGB R1 or R3 turnout?

It occurred to me that, if necessary, I might be able to use a good hot melt adhesive to attach pieces of the Rack Rail to the ties inside the LGB turnouts (if I can get the teeth spaced correctly).

I guess that if I have to, I should be able to run the Ballenbergs back to back and the gap between their cog gears might be far enough to get through the LGB turnouts. A problem might come up if the cog wheels are not spaced so that two rack locos could work with the spacing of the gearing on the same rack rails.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/20471 Ballenberg.pdf

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/204711.PDF

Ideas or personal success stories?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I wouldn't even try to attempt to run a rack through switches. Maybe double heading would work, but???

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Jerry
> 
> I wouldn't even try to attempt to run a rack through switches. Maybe double heading would work, but???
> 
> Chuck


Hi Chuck,

I may not have a choice. I have enough weight in the Aristo E-8's and SD-45's that they can make it up the ramps pulling some rolling stock (I just hope they do not snag on the rack rail).

As I am sure you know, Aristo couplers are quick to snag on LGB Track Magnets so I am afraid I will have problems if I try to use any Aristo couplers over the Rack Rail.

If I back up and push up rather than pull up with the rack locos I may be able to avoid needing any cog rail in the turnouts - and the turnouts are flat with a few feet of lead in.

At least the Ballenbergs have buffers above their hook & loop couplers so they are less likely to have loops jump over each other when pushing uphill.

I have procrastinated for many years so it is time for me to finally face and deal with the problem - and perhaps discover I have worried about a non-problem.

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I don't know about the Aristo couplers snagging, because I remove them and put on couplers that will mate with my other cars. I've bags of Aristo couplers that I have replaced.

My rolling stock is at body mount coupler height, whether it is truck mounted, or body mounted.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Chuck,

All of my couplers are truck mounted. I mainly use LGB or USAT hook & loops but some Aristo freight cars have Aristo knuckle couplers (the newer ones work pretty well).

The newest Aristo diesels are difficult to mount hook & loops to. Even the newer Bachmann knuckle couplers are much improved.

Often (because of cost) I match brand of freight car to the couplers on it. Kadee have never worked for me.

One accidental uncoupling & the offending coupler is trashed.

There are several reasons (read LGB incompatibility) why I cannot use Aristo hook & loops plus Aristo truck tangs are too short for mounting LGB/USAT hook & loops.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Ballenbergs as switchers?*



Jerry McColgan said:


> I guess that if I have to, I should be able to run the Ballenbergs back to back and the gap between their cog gears might be far enough to get through the LGB turnouts. A problem might come up if the cog wheels are not spaced so that two rack locos could work with the spacing of the gearing on the same rack rails.


As I thought about this (double heading rack locomotives) I realized this is probably a really dumb idea. I can now see how I could possibly strip the gears out of two rack locomotives if they got out of sync with each other while both were on the same strip of rack rail.

The Ballenbergs are a lot heavier than the 2046 type LGB rack locomotives so they should be less inclined to skip on the rack rail and work a lot better as switchers.

The engine itself is about 14" in length and weighs in at around 6 to 7 lbs. The locomotive has very good pulling power off the rack, able to pull around 20 standard LGB freight cars. It really shines on the rack though. Once the cog beneath the locomotive engages the rack rail mounted down the centerline of the track, the locomotive is able to pull about 40 to 50 cars up a 4.5% grade! It sounds ridiculous, but, it is true, I have tested it myself on my 120' long helix with standard plastic and metal wheeled LGB freight cars. Now, I wouldn't recommend pulling that consist up that grade often, we did it as a test to show it can be done. A 20 car consist up the grade will present no problems at all. The locomotive has LGB's standard, extremely powerful 7 pole buller motor. Constant lighting circuits are also standard to power the 6 lights on the loco. With the use of LGB's smoke fluid, the engine has a working smoke stack, as is standard on all LGB Steam Locomotives.

http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/product-reviews/brunig/brunig.htm

The picture shows two rack rail gears (I thought there was one) in contact with the rack rail. That should minimize problems with turnouts.

The trick will be being able to use traction where rack rail cannot be laid.

I am almost done laying the main two sections of rack rail connecting the indoor and outdoor layouts.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Ballenberg First Run on new rack rail*

I finished laying the new rack rail track and decided to try the Ballenberg Rack Rail Steam Locomotive on it to see if it could move a consist of six LGB coaches to and from the layout.

I immediately discovered the Ballenberg could NOT handle the LGB R1 curves going outside. I thought I remembered running the Ballenbergs through R1 curves in the past.

Next, I removed the rack rails from the R1 curves and found that the Ballenberg could go around the R1 curves without rack rails. I had a further problem getting the Ballenberg and coaches around the "S" curve needed to get outside so I removed the rack rail from the next curve.

That left a one foot straight section leading to a left curve (Aristo 5' or 6.5' 90 degree curve). I left the rack rail in the curve and the Ballenberg was then able to pull the six LGB coaches out and down to the outside layout.

Once on the outside I moved the Ballenberg to the front to see if it could pull the 6 coaches inside.

The Ballenberg slipped when it hit the two turnouts half way to the indoor layout. A little push got the Ballenberg and coaches indoors.

That will not work but fortunately there is an 8" straight section between the two problem turnouts.

Since the Ballenbergs have two rack rail gears (vs a single gear on the LGB 70246 Zugspitz Rack Loco) it might work if I put rack rail between the two offending LGB turnouts. The Ballenberg and coaches are going through the straight sections of the turnouts so it might be possible to put sufficient rack rail between them.

At least there is hope. I was starting to think I had made an expensive mistake buying the rack rail.

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

Yes there are two gears on the bottom that engage the rack, but only one the rear one is connected to the motor to pull the engine up the incline. The front one free wheels. It is designed to turn the upper valve gear, which in 1:1 world would power the cog. In this case it turns the upper valve gear only when it is on the rack.

Turn the engine over, the front gear free wheels, the rear one does not as it is tied to the gears and motor.



Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Chuck,

You are right. I had forgotten that the other gear is for simulated action.

I am having (as expected) some problems with hook & loop couplers dragging & occasionally snagging on the rack rail.

Now I am starting to remember why I quit running the rack locos years ago. Still, I'm not ready to give up yet.

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

If it were me I'd cut off the bit that hangs down and gets cought on the rack.

Chuck

I had forgotten about the second gear too. I found it when I went out to the garage to investigate your post.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a few of the 64462 couplers but unless I can figure out a way for the Ballenberg to get through the turnouts the couplers won't matter.

I think the rack rail may need to be tapered at the beginning and end to prevent the couplers from snagging on it.

Once the couplers are up on the top of the rail they might be noisy but should not snag. The gear on the Ballenberg might or might not have the same problem.

It seems the couplers only snag one way (up or down). If this is true I might get by with half the # of 64462 couplers.

I may try backing up one ramp and pulling up the other - so the Ballenberg can use the cog rail to back up one ramp and then traction to get to the other ramp.

It's making me think a lot more than I expected.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

My plan is to try:

3M 5/8" X 2" Industrial Hot Melt Adhesives used with a 3M Scotch-WeldTM Hot Melt Applicator TC

3M 3792 Scotch-Weld Hot Melt Adhesive "Clear Multi-Purpose"
3M 3764 Scotch-Weld Hot Melt Adhesive "Bonds variety of plastics"

to see if they work to attach short strips of LGB's Rack Rail to the ties inside the LGB turnouts and possibly enable the LGB Ballenbergs to drive through the turnouts.

I should be able to use an inverted Rack Rail to assure proper tooth spacing through the turnouts.

Most likely it won't work but it's worth a try. The 3M Hot Weld might be tough enough but it will not be possible to prevent any gaps in the rail.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> I have a few of the 64462 couplers but unless I can figure out a way for the Ballenberg to get through the turnouts the couplers won't matter.
> 
> I think the rack rail may need to be tapered at the beginning and end to prevent the couplers from snagging on it.
> 
> ...


I have had some successes today.

Rather than work on the couplers, instead I tapered the end of the Rack Rails to give the coupler tangs something to ride up on top of the Rack Rail. I did it in both directions using short pieces of Rack Rail and grinding a taper on the end tops

This did not solve the lack of Rack Rail through the turnouts but by adding a bit of (not-excessive) speed uphill, i have been able to get the Ballenberg far enough into the 1st turnout to connect with the Rack Rail on the other end of the turnout..

I won't say I have solved the problem but I have been able to drive the Ballenberg both up and down the ramps pulling an LGB Mogul Tender (for appearance, sound and additional track contacts) plus six LGB Coaches.

I have done this several times and, aside from some unidentified "clacks" it seems to be working well enough that I can live with it.

There is a lot more testing to be done but I was becoming pessimistic about getting the Rack Rail to work to my satisfaction. Now I am becoming optimistic.

Jerry


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