# Teaching Thomas to run in the same direction as his new friends



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I mentioned in Bills thread about Thomas that the engine has opposite the polarity to that present on most of our electric engines, LGB, USAT, Accucraft, Aristo. It is a relatively simple outpatient surgical procedure to fix his polarity. He went under the screwdriver earlier this morning. 


Cale shows a picture of the underside of the locomotive as it comes from the factory. Just remove 8 small screws and the bottom plate comes off. 











Each wiper is held in place with a small screw. It was a simple process to reverse the positions of the four wipers. Fortunately, Bachmann did not scrimp on the length of wire they used in making the engine. There is enough slack so that the wires can be pulled out far enough to relocate the wipers without having to worry about the wires getting caught in the gears. 


In the pictures below the engine is oriented in the same direction as in Cale's picture.




















Thomas in now in recovery and should be able to go out and run around (in the right direction) with some other engines later this afternoon.


Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would still recommend a spot of hot glue on each wire to hold it. 

Your last photo has the black wire plenty close to the gear. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

It is an optical illusion. The wire is at least .25 inches above the gear.

Chuck


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

By chance is there a switch somewhere under the face that might say "NMRA" or "LargeScale"? If so and it's on "NMRA" , switch it to LargeScale and he'll run the right direction.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

I looked all over for a switch. All the wires go straight to the motor. This is really a minimalist engine, not much but a motor and the eye movement.

Chuck N


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Super, Chuck.... Looks like you solved the problem...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of you might ask why bother?? 

The reason is that for the last 15 or so years Jim and JoAnne Stapleton (AKA Dr.and Mrs. Rivet) have been setting up a Holiday train show one weekend in December at the Colvin Run Mill Park in Great Falls, Virginia. This years show is the weekend before Christmas. I've been helping for a number of years.


We have four different trains going and one of them is a Thomas loop. The loop has a passing siding. We have it setup so that Thomas can go clockwise and James can go counterclockwise. This is done with spring loaded switches and a gap and a diode in each of the tracks between the switches. This way we can park one engine on its track between the switches, reverse direction (change polarity) and the second engine starts its run in the opposite direction. The spring loaded switches keep the proper train on its own siding. These trains have no problem going through a closed LGB spring switch.


For this to work, both engines need to have the same polarity wiring. Otherwise someone would have to go out and manually throw a switch (track, not direction) each time one of the little visitors wanted to see the non running engine run. Those of you who have done shows know what that is like.

If it weren't for the show, I wouldn't have worried about it.

Chuck N


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I never thought to say why bother.... If I ran DC I would make darn sure all my locos were all set to the same polarity. 

Good idea. 


Regards, Greg


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck, 

Thanks for posting that! 

Best, 
TJ


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

If it was an engine I would be running with other engines, there is no question about matching the polarity. In my case Thomas' runs will be solo (when the Grand kids are here) or at the train shows. If I didn't have the show, I really doubt that I would have changed this locomotive, because of the limited use I expect to give it. 


Chuck


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Conspiracy theories abound... It appears that either 

1) somebody at Bachmann screwed up 

or 

2) the NMRA has been trying to impose the same polarity standards that other scales use. For awhile, Bachmann has provided an unnecessary polarity reversal switch. They may have just gone full over with this one. 

Would it not have been easier to reverse the wires at the motor?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

George:


Yes, you could reverse the wires at the motor, but if you look at Cale's picture in Bills original thread on Thomas, you will see that they are soldered. I thought that it would be easier to switch the wipers that unsolder and resolder. Either way is a viable option.

My guess is that the NMRA has gotten to Bachmann.

Chuck N


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, I guess I did a poor job on my post... I was agreeing with you setting the polarity to match what was needed. 

George, I thought this all started with LGB having a different polarity than the NMRA standards for HO... 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg: 

I thought that I was agreeing with you. Any other engine would definitely go to the LGB "standard". For me, Thomas is a little unique, it probably wouldn't matter what the polarity is when I run it at home it is only at the shows that it will matter.


Chuck N


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just wanted to make sure I was not coming across as arguing with you Chuck... I screw up sometimes.... 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Greg, that's why we're "backwards" and that irritates the NMRA. However, in this scale, the LGB standard is the defacto standard. No reason to mess with it because, last time I checked, our trains don't run well on HO track.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

We're cool. I thought that I was agreeing with you and visa versa.


George:

LGB is the large scale Standard. As far as I know Bachmann is the only large scale manufacturer that has a major presence in other scales: HO and N. That presence maybe their motive. 

One other thing that I didn't mention in your suggestion to change the wires on the motor is that putting the boiler back on isn't straight forward. It is easy to remove the boiler. There are 8 screws that hold the base assembly to the top. Removing those and the two parts come right apart. Unfortunately, when you repeat the process it is not quite as simple. I put them together and when went out to check the running and Thomas was cross eyed. It is necessary to remove the face and then align the eye tabs with the slots in the motor mount. To do it without taking off the face is an exercise in frustration. 


Chuck


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Think of the benefits though:


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Quote...I screw up sometimes....
I heard that about you.















Ok i broke down today and ordered a Thomas set from Robbie to use under my tree and at some of the shows to keep the kiddies HAPPY


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I found that Thomas ran off and left his friends behind. The hook and loop couplers do not swivel and are body mounted. They did not work well on tight radius R1 curves. I wired it together temporarily. Have not had time to evaluate the situation. It is our club's Christmas layout. Just keep it running. Why do manuafacturers apply power (Gear) to blind drivers?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Because the other 2 drivers get their power from the siderods connected to the center driver.. 

Why make it blind though? It does not stay coupled on R1 curves, so flange the center driver... 

Oh well, where is Stanley, he will know why it was done... where is the socket? 

Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

In this case, the center driver is just a jackshaft. However, the wheelbase is short enough that they didn't have to make it blind. Other 3 axle locos with a similar wheelbase deal with R1 curves, Thomas should as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree George, and my experience (and I think this has been reported on the Thomas) is that manufacturers often make the blind driver slightly smaller in diameter, so it contributes nothing to tractive effort. 

Now, since this does not really have a suspension, would there be anything to be gained except appearance? I don't know. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Tractive effort would not improve as the weight would be distributed differently, but the number of drivers in contact with the track is much less important than the total weight on the drivers. 

Power pickup would improve some, primarily in the turns where the flanges would be bearing on the sides of the rail head.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

We tried to run Thomas on our overhead track in the shop this weekend, with some R1 S curves and he took a fall of 8 feet. This was pulling the two cars that came with the set. Very little damage done. I then gave him a try alone, seems to do fine. He went solo rest of the week with no problems. Except some strange behavior, at a certain speed setting. First of all I must explain how we control our two overhead loops. I have a 3 amp Bridworks connected to loop #1 and also feeding a LGB throtle feeding loop #2, At a certain speed setting of the two throttles Thomas went back and forth. Turning up the voltage on the Bridgeworks stopped the reversing. I can't explain this.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There have been several comments about Thomas and train derailing on R1 curves. All of the couplers are body mounted. It would help us a if MLSers using different radii would report success or lack of it with Thomas and friends.

My curves are 10' diameter and I don't have any problems. There are problems with R1 (4' diameter). Is anybody running on R2 (5' diameter), or R3 (8' diameter) with or without problems? 


Does anyone know the diameter of the curves that come with Thomas and does he run OK on that track?

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I just set up the circle that came with Thomas. It is R1 or very close. Outside rail to outside rail 49 inches.

Are those of you with derailments, having problems in the transition from straight to curve or going through an "S" curve (with or without a straight segment between the curves) or both?


Chuck


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I did not experience any derailment on R1 curves; it was an uncoupling issue. The couples do not swivel and the hooks seem to disengage with the loop on the sharp curves. No S curve involved.


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## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

I may be able to add to the "blind center driver" discussion. I was always curious why Bachmann made the center driver smaller on the Big Haulers. Started production on my first 2-8-0s. My customers request that the blind drivers touch the rails. I obliged, then the complaints started; Why did my loco derail on the back stretch? As it turned out, as hard as we try our track work (especially out doors) isn't as good as we might like. In the above case that section of track was on a rise and the track sections joined on the rise causing a "point" in the rails. When the first axle passed over the point no problem, but as the second and third axles came over the point the first axle was up in the air, looking for a place to go.....derail.

Since my 2-8-0 is a rigid design, the solution was to reduce the blind drivers diameter. I had a bunch of 2-8-0s returned, I turned the 2nd and 3rd drivers down, and returned to their owners. 

The Bachmann Connie suspends all drive axles, even the blinds, beautiful setup, more contact for pickup and more contact for pulling power (especially with the BBT motor and drive installed.

Barry - BBT


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have noticed also that a blind driver can drop "inside" the rails on a curve, and seem to "catch" when the rails straighten out. This seems to be mostly on tight curves. I have not researched this completely, but the more I look at locos, the less I like blind drivers. I cannot really support this with extensive research, but I guess it's my right not to like them ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Barry:

Here are my best measurements with my calipers. It is a little difficult to get the outside and base of flange measurements.


Diameter outside edge of tread flanged driver: 2.18".


Diameter inside edge by flange: 2.189".


Diameter blind driver:2.151". 


Distance driver 1 to 2 (front to back): 2.885".


Distance driver 2 to 3: 2.885".


If you want any other measurements, let me know.


Chuck


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 10 Dec 2009 06:53 AM 
There have been several comments about Thomas and train derailing on R1 curves. All of the couplers are body mounted. It would help us a if MLSers using different radii would report success or lack of it with Thomas and friends.


Chuck 


Chuck

We ran both Thomas and Percy with their cars on oval of track for two days at the Hub train show. The curves were R1. Our only derailments were caused by kids reaching out and touching the trains. At most speeds Thomas was slightly faster then Percy so they would often run up to each other. We also had no uncoupling as we used the hooks on both ends as they come in the sets.

The kids loved them and some would sit for a long time just watching these two trains go round and round. 

Stan


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

I always thought that blind drivers in our gauge were smaller that the flanged drivers because of the fact that our curves might allow the blind drivers to drop into the inside of a curve. 


My first experience in blind drivers in G gauge was with the original LGB mogul. Mine wouldn't go through any R1 curves and switches without binding. I had a machinist friend who ground down the flange on the center driver. It ran much better. LGB shortly after our modification was replacing the original motor blocks with ones with center drivers that had a lot more lateral play. Everything has worked well since I replaced the motor block. I had kit bashed the mogul by the time I had them replace the block. It came back with my modifications replaced by factory parts. Fortunately, my parts came back in the box. Needless to say, I was happy with the new block, but very unhappy with the factory rebuild. My rebuild was to convert it to a coal burner with a straight stack, electric lamp and new brass domes. It came back with a diamond stack, kerosene lantern and a new smoke box.


Chuck


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

You must have all the luck Stan, cause my cars wil not stay on the r-1 track from bachmann under my tree. im working on removing hook and loops now and coming up with a cheapo linking rod maybe a paper clip to hold cars to the engine.........


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

All I know is that several writers have expressed problems with Thomas, Clarabel, and Annie derailing and/or becoming uncoupled when running on R1. I don't run R1, so I don't have first hand experience. Next weekend I'll be running them on LGB R2. That will be the tightest that I have easy access to try (see Large Scale Events). 


Chuck N


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick:

Thanks for the comment. Is the problem between Thomas and the cars, or between the cars as well?

Chuck


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 13 Dec 2009 06:20 PM 
Nick:

Thanks for the comment. Is the problem between Thomas and the cars, or between the cars as well?

Chuck 



Chuck, Clarabel, and Annie keep derailing. Im on top of it. I will be making a draw bar to go between the engine and cars and that should solve the problem. i will make it out of plastic with 2 holes drilled, one in each end. will post pictures when complete.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, my theory on blind drivers is the same as yours. I've seen the blind driver drop "into" a tight curve, and then bind when the curve straightened out. 

Sure sounds like the body mount couplers are a problem. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

OOOOOOO and i must tell you guys Thomas is a scary little engine. I was sitting here last nite trying to complete my beer bottle xmas tree and i was watching Thomas go around the track with them eyes moving and it bugged me out........... WTH I thought trains were supose to be cheerie HE HE HE


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick:

Keep us up to date on you modification. There are too many kids, of all ages, waiting for Thomas to go with out problems.

Greg:


Thanks for the support.

Chuck


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## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

Chuck N

Thanks for the dimensions. They couldn't use the Big Hauler dimensions nominally 2" drivers and 2.67" axle to axle.


Everything new.

Barry - BBT


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

I forgot to ask, whose R1 track were you using in the show: Bachmann, LGB, Aristo, or USAT? It would help us to know, there might be subtle differences in the curvature that helps Thomas and Percy and their cars go around one brand and not another.


Chuck


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 15 Dec 2009 08:50 AM 
Stan:

I forgot to ask, whose R1 track were you using in the show: Bachmann, LGB, Aristo, or USAT? It would help us to know, there might be subtle differences in the curvature that helps Thomas and Percy and their cars go around one brand and not another.


Chuck 



Chuck

The track was either LGB or USA Trains Brass track screwed down to plywood. Thomas and Percy operated flawlessly but did have wheel sweek when going around the curves.

If you look at the wheels for the Thomas series you will see that they have the same profile as the 1:20 Caboose or 2-6-6-2.

These wheels have a filet, and much better angles for the tred and flange. In otherwords we are looking at some really great scale wheels and not toy wheels with super deep flanges.


The rigid wheel base on Annie is rather long which means that on R1 curves the wheels will likely be tight against the rails.

My best guess is that if the track is not tight to each other or big level differences exist between the sections that the wheels might pick the joints in the track when going around an R1 curve or even pick themselves off the rail if the track is bad enough .

This weekend we set up the tree and this year we are going to use Bachmann track around the tree. I will test out some of my theories and repost sometime next week.

Stan


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

Thanks for the information. This weekend I'll be running Thomas one a R2 loop. At this time, I don't have space to set up a R1 loop to test what happens. We need help for those who are using R1.

Chuck


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck,

I reported it on my thread about Percy, but I was able to run no problems with Percy pulling aristo 20' gons, tank car, bachmann hopper car, and aristo bobber caboose around a not well put together LGB 1600 loop (nominally 8' diameter).

Nick pointed out that the coupler heights for Kadees are way off. I added a 7/16" block as a shim to get from the mounting holes to a workable height for mounting aristo couplers. Because I will have only one screw holding each coupler, it will be possible to loosen these a bit to allow them to pivot when running on tight R1 curves. I haven't tried that, Percy has another week before he can come out to play.

Here are some pictures of my modifications:

This shows the wood block, painted black to hide it. By the way, the measurement is not that precise, and neither was the cut. I made it with a mitre saw, but that is pretty small for the saw. I didn't notice the flanges were small. I guess that's good, but perhaps it is part of the problem with the R1 derailments? 









Another shot of the coupler and mount. There is nothing to prevent the aristo coupler from pivoting, so perhaps that will help on tight curves. The screw painted black is a #4 sheet metal screw, 3/4" long. The one holding the coupler is a 4-40 machine screw. Both acted like self tapping screws, threading themselves in to the plastic mounting posts. 









Sorry this one is a little fuzzy. This is the test shot between a standard aristo truck mounted coupler (our standard) and a shimmed troublesome truck.











One last comment about derailments and uncouplings. That is VERY prototypical of trains that run on the island of Sodor.


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

markoles, I mounted Kadee 830 on the coaches and Thomas and found them right on the Kadee guage when I checked, and the 830 boxes mount using the existing pad and screw holes on both Thomas and Clarabelle


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

QUOTE (I mounted Kadee 830 on the coaches and Thomas and found them right on the Kadee guage]
Hmmmm mine did not wonder why ?????? will have to look into it.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys.

This afternoon I helped set up our Christmas train show here in northern Virginia. This may be a show that no one ever gets to see. We are now under the gun for the record snow tomorrow. We'll see, I hope that by Sunday we'll be open. So far we haven't been canceled, but only time will tell.

The main purpose of this note is to say is that Thomas and the girls ran through R2 (LGB 1500 curves, 5' diameter) without any uncoupling or derailing problems. 


Any problems with uncoupling are restricted to R1 curves. Several of you have shown how other couplers can help solve the problem. That's what this site is all about. WAY TO GO !!!!

CHUCK


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Chuck, Dont forget to take pictures of the show







We like pictures...........


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick:

If I can find the site of the show, I'll take some pictures. It may be buried. My only concern is that the barn doesn't collapse and destroy the trains.


chuck


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

I have had Thomas, Annie and Clarabel running for some time around the Christmas tree using the Bachmann R1 track provided. Lots of squeaks as it goes around the curve but no derailments or uncoupling. I have made some observations. 

1) Normally with loop and hook I only place the hook on one car, two loops and one hook. The set works best as delivered with a loop with hook on each end. 

2) You will get a derailment 100% of the time if you have an R1 S curve (a curve in one direction followed by a curve in the other direction without a straight track in-between. 

3) On abrupt level changes the hooks on the couplers can get real close to letting go. Under my CHristmas tree with Bachmann track they do not let go but I had to ensure that both hooks were fullly engaged. 

as the couplers straighten out in a curve the loops get real close to touching each other. When touching loops will actually put pressure on the cars which could cause problems. 

BTW the shorter Troublesome Trucks look better in R1 curves. The center driver for Thomas is flangeless as others have noted. It is had a flange Thomas would not go around the Bachmann R1 track. 

Myself I will use Kadee 830 couplers with the sides of the pockets cut back a little so the train will still take tight curves. 

Now to find a sound unit with the right toot for a really useful engine. 

Hope that helps. 

Stan Ames


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

Thanks for the update. I think that removing one of the hooks on each car might help.

Chuck N


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