# Older and newer... pipe dreamin on a flipping cold evening



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

The timeline and other stuff I've recently done to the the AV pages got me to thinking (it wasn't COAL smoke you smelled....) ..... Question 1: What would an 1850s narrow gauge 4-4-0 have looked like? (remember, narrow gauge didn't get real popular until the 1870s)..... Question 2: What would the AV have been most likely to purchase after the turn of the century for heavier coal drag and general freight service to replace their aging 1880's 2-8-0s?....

Yes, I suppose the answer to both is 'Whatever I wish to pretend they did".... Except I thought I'd kick it out to you fellows for suggestions. We are talking 42" gauge or 1:24 scale. Also, one caveat --- should I decide to actually model the later engine eventually, it would still have to be something that did not look totally stupid on R-2 curves, and not need bigger clearances than my present Aristo covered bridges (with the end trim removed) and LGB truss bridges allow... Also, what loco would you choose for a starting point? preferably not prohibitively expensive..... and why?

I've idly considered the following this evening: 1. Modernizing and downscaling a B'mann Connie (piston valves, smaller cab, etc) 2. Upscaling an Aristo Mike (or perhaps the new 2-8-0 they are releasing), different cab, steps etc. 3. Fitting a modified c-16 drive under a Lionel Atlantic or similar shell (again with different cab, steps, etc)... or maybe the best answer is something else I completely missed?

Soooo, What do you think?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

1850's? 
interesting..we dont see a lot of 1850's style locomotives being modeled, in any scale.. 

1850's 4-4-0's are quite a bit "cruder" than the 1870's and later 4-4-0's we are used to seeing.. 
I consider them "gawky"...lacking much of the finesse and art of the later machines.. 
often inside connected, (with no "main rod" visible from the cylinders to the drivers) 
and often with a large rectangular heavy external frame going all the way around the locomotive. 
square "boxes" for domes, instead of the later, fancier fluted domes.. 
front pilot wheels, and drivers, are often very close together..not spread out like in later designs.. 
generally lacking "art"  if that makes sense.. 
here are some pics: 

1850's picture 1 


1850's picture 2 

1850's picture 3 

1850's picture 4 

The 1850's was really the transitional decade between the early styles of the 1830's and 1840's: 

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPr...ica/SteamEngines/JohnWhite_files/image009.png1830's picture

And the refined style of the 1860's, 1870's and beyond..with two domes, full cab, outside running gear.. 
the more "modern" style represented by the Bachmann 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 of the 1870's: 

Fletch's 1870's model 
 
the 1850's locomotives had features of both eras.. 

So..for a narrow gauge 4-4-0 of the 1850's, I would go for that "middle era" look.. 
not the 1830's look, but not the 1870's look either.. 
something like the first four links I posted.. 

Bachmann "Indy" would probably be a good starting point..
small drivers, small boiler..could be converted into a 4-4-0 fairly easily.. 


Scot


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Scot, interesting pics. thanks.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The narrow gauge movement was really in its VERY nacent stages in the 1850s, and as noted didn't gain any kind of traction in the US until the 1870s. So from a purely prototypical standpoint, you wouldn't have narrow gauge locos in 1850. Having said that, there's no reason one wouldn't expect a narrow gauge loco of that era to mirror the standard gauge locos of that era, as they pretty much have all through the development of steam technology. 

The challenge will be adapting them from current production models. 

Later, 

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Inboard main rods.










If you don't go for a bigger boiler then you have to add more wheels!

John


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

While many are standard and broad gauge, there are some good vintage (1830s on) steam loco shots on the website Taplines showing later life in logging and other operations. 

http://taplines.net/locos/bray.html


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

thanks for the suggestions so far!

I might just get a new blight or scientific cheeser to remake (and throw most of it in the scrapbox) and do a fake daguerreotype just for giggles.


I'm really curious about later too... 
Some other factors that might affect the choice for late power; it's a water level route - not many real steep grades, but lots of curves. We'll be nice call the directors conservative, determined and frugal (instead of hidebound, stubborn and cheap). Soooo, used SG boiler on an outside frame ng chassis ala K37s but smaller?... or more normal looking inside frame either all new or???


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## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

Narrow gauge railroads were quite flexible in their use of rolling stock. They would use a lot of used stuff from other railroads and build/rebuild to suit their requirements and available money. Usually the trainmen would make their own custom reworks. No two railroads would look the same. Changes on narrow gauge lines would look out of place on a standard gauge line. What I'm getting at is; narrow gauge railroads didn't follow any hard and fast rules and you as a narrow gauge modeller don't have to either. When I build a model, I usually combine the features/ details of different railroads into one model. My philosophy is: "It's my railroad; I'll run it any way I want". I like to follow scale, but not necessarily prototype; It's called modeller license. That's just me.


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## sang_route (Sep 24, 2008)

sounds like the directors might finally bite that bullet and order (or rebuild) a small driver-ed mallet to really get get that coal moving. who knows maybe it will end up in dedicated pusher service with that 1850's loco serving more as a cab up front.







It could look something like this


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I spent a good part of last night digging around on the net for 1850s era stuff. It's there... one here, two there, etc. It made me wonder why nobody had yet put a bunch in one place.... so I did. A few still need captioned, and one or two really need replaced.... It also probably needs a descriptive paragraph or two


http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/1850s.html

I have a MPC General kit (and some Botchmann A-frame bridges to temporarily replace the steel truss ones) coming to build a freelance model - if I can decide what style... and maybe do an 1860s photo shoot in the spring.

That still leaves late.

This Cuban Baldwin looks like an easy Connie bash, but I'm not sure I like it well enough









This would be a bit more work...









Or maybe this?








Or?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"and do a fake daguerreotype just for giggles."
'


Harumph!!! Fake???


















Could be first all weather cab... 
Didn't know the 1930s fit your bill.

Ya might want to reduce a photo in your last post tho'









John


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

If (when) I ever bash one of my Connies, here's the loco I would replicate--Georgetown number 40, which is now in the Colorado Railroad Museum, right, Kevin?


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, oh! Shad's gonna be mad. Honest, I don't know what happened, occifer.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Dang it all! I resized that puppy to real small and when I click on my gallery photo, it still prints big. Tell ya what, why don't y'all just scroll? That way youse can see all the detail.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 28 Nov 2010 08:03 PM

Ya might want to reduce a photo in your last post tho'









John

I would if I could - it isn't my photo... and I didn't realize it was that big when I linked it. (the host site had it constrained)... and the 'edit' button is gone, so I can't change it to a link. Oh, Steve!, Oh, Dwight!....


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

That General is a beaut. Where would you get those Drivers from? 

Ed


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed, other than the MPC/Ertl plastic kit?... I wonder if you can fit those wheels as inserts to a Lionel Atlantic brick?


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Kitbash maybe a B'man 2-6-0 

Ed


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, now maybe, here's that picture of the Georgetown Loop number 40--


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Yer welcome!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Joe... I'm still torn between going the Newfoundland Alco/ EBT Mike direction, or to outside frame 2-8-0s.... As I said, I'd be interested in hearing opinions and supporting reasons either way.

The Bachmann Connie is readily available, but is HUGE, and reportedly has gearbox troubles
The Aristo Mike or yet to be released 2-8-0 would need major surgery to rescale, and cost more

The Lionel 2-8-2 (Polar Express/Christmas Story) is affordable but really, really junky. 


And nobody would buy ANY of them (for more than 30c on the dollar) after I remade it and got my pictures. So I might as well figure on having to look at it for a long, looooong time.....


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Mik, you sound like me. I have all sorts of "dream" projects in the works. Just read my various posts. But hey, at least we keep our brains stimulated, yah?


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## cjwalas (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad you've given up on the 1850's style NG 4-4-0... That's a project that's been on my list for years now. If I wasn't doing NG, I would definitely be doing 1850's- early 1860's. I love the _subtle_ decorative philosophy of the day;








This is the Wyoming, the most elaborate 4-4-0 I've yet seen an a great subject for a NG version! Ahh, sweet dreams! 

Chris


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cjwalas on 30 Nov 2010 09:52 AM 
Glad you've given up on the 1850's style NG 4-4-0... 


"Given up"? or brought it up? .... I've got a MPC General kit coming... and a new blight cheeser to try to motorize it.... And it's definitely going to have at least a partial outside frame around the cylinders. The striping will be a minor problem. My hands shake. I'm going to have to look into off the rack decals, and a very fine paint pen.


I'm also trying to decide - either Lake and Emerald Green or Crimson and Royal Blue









BTW, on later, the inside vs outside frame question seems to have been answered -- somebody retracted their bid, so I ended up with a Connie for $150, now it's 2-8-0 vs 2-8-2, and slide vs piston valves, and general derangement... Stock is simply OUT of the question.


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Chris, what ever happened to your Hillbilly rail truck and your rogue county crew? I could have sworn you had a crew similar to the rogue county crew on a lumber train? Or was that a crew you made for one of your members on your Del Oro website? Those are awesome figures and models. 
Mik, will you be able to run it with the MPC plastic drivers?


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Hey Mik... what about going the freelance route? Alco held the American rights for the garrett arrangement. One of the largest collections of garretts was the South African Railways, which if memory serves, was roughly 42" gauge as their standard?


Perhaps a 2-6-0+0-6-2?


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