# TODAYS LUMBER



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Given the fact the most of todays lumber is not kiln dried it will warp, split, crack and cup. Will sealing it with something stops this? 

Something like Thompson water seal? Or just plain varnish?

What do you recomend for sealing wood to keep it from warping. 

JJ


----------



## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

John,
Cupping, bowing,crooking, what is commonly called warping is a factor of wood grain direction and internal moisture escaping from the wood at different rates.
"Green" lumber has to release it's moisture to cure and you can't "seal" the wood until that is done and the board has probably warped. You seal wood to keep moisture from re-entering and causing warping problems. Many different opinions out there about what is best to seal wood with and lots of products to chose from. 
Here are a couple of web sites that may be of interest.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Warp_in_Drying.html

http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/pro-shop/25-wood-warping-not-an-open-and-shut-case

Later
Rick


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Most big box stores sell grade 2 lumber or worse. I get mine at a little local yard, they sell grade 1.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Be very selective. Get the tightest grain you can, fewest knots possible. If you are getting lumber at Lowe's or Home Depot, be prepared to go thru a whole bunk to find one or two pieces. As Jerry said, real lumber yards tend to be better. Hardwood lumber yards are the best. They usually carry furniture grade lumber and the prices are not that bad.

If at all possible, don't let the lumber sit too long. Get on the project anbd let the assembly dry together.

I never saw plywood warp until I moved here.


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not sure where the idea of lumber not being kiln dried comes from, the mills around here still do it? May be a geographical thing? 

Helping a friend here (Nashville) build a layout (H0) we were surprised that much of the lumber he bought from Home Depot came from Austria, so who knows. 

And as pointed out above, buy from a local yard, you can beat the big box stores both in quality and price in most cases.


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

I use a lot of grade 2 lumber but it requires that I carefully select each piece to get the best. If it's all junk I just forget it and come back another day. Even then some warping will occur. I commonly store lumber in my shop for a year before it's used when possible. You need to stack it with separation between each layer and adequate support to allow air to flow freely and dry the wood. When ready to use I set aside the most perfect pieces for use as longer boards and use the ones that warped a bit for smaller pieces as needed. 

If more perfection is needed then you'll have to find a place that sells grade 1 or cabinet grade lumber as Jerry has done. There are a few lumber yards that cater to cabinet makers, etc., but you'll have to search them out. They do usually seem to be smaller shops, as large cabinet shops buy their lumber direct, and will often handle many various types of wood from all over. Be prepared to pay considerably more for what you buy but the upside is that most all of it will be useable with minimum knots and imperfections. This mitigates the cost somewhat and produces top notch stripwood. Jerry is one of those that builds fine models so quality is essential to him surely.


----------



## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

JJ 
Great topic! Herb my neighbor and I were having the same discussion last week. He comes from the radio controlled aircraft hobby side. He has some interesting ideas on sealing wood with techniques used in that hobby. His layout gets soaked every night with his sprinkler system and has has a hard time keeping wood projects from coming apart due to the constant soaking then drying from our heat here.We will be trying out some of these techniques this fall as I start my new layout. I will keep you advised and post here when we have some results. 
Best, Ted


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

The following guide lines were published in a fine woodworking magazine a couple of years ago by a craftsman who cuts, drys and mills his own materials. I will skip the parts from felling to rough cutting to bringing it into your shop. 

After you bring the material (in his article this was rough cut at this stage) into your shop (assuming the work area is climate controlled), allow the wood to 'normalize' to the environment for about 2-3 weeks. I would think from supplier's environment to yours should me maybe a week as most big box stores are less than ideal environment control. As Richard stated above, sticker (the proper phrase for keeping air flowing between the boards) the material and properly support. 

Cut to approximate length all the material for your project. Stack and sticker the material and allow it to 'normalize' again by allowing time for the stresses within the wood to relieve after cutting to length. This step should be a couple of days. After the material has normalized, check for the usual twisting, cupping etc. As a note, I usually cut my material at least 1/8 larger in both directions at this stage to allow for joining and planing if necessary. 

If necessary, joint two edges to get a square board and continue on cutting to size from there. If your work area is climate controlled, your should be able to complete your project before being concerned with sealing. As for sealing after completion, my only recommendation is a covering with a good UV protection value. 

If I can find the article, I will post the source information here. 

My tuppence worth. 

Bob C.


----------



## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I learned the hard way... When buying structural lumber (I suppose this goes for any lumber), make sure the central rings are not included in any piece that you purchase. Wood containing the central rings is sure to twist, warp, end up like a pretzel.


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Steve, 

Called 'Heartwood' 

Bob C.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By armorsmith on 12 Oct 2010 01:24 PM 
Steve, 

Called 'Heartwood' 

Bob C. 
No, it (the center) is called the "pith".



Construction lumber is available here in the West in either green or kiln-dried conditions, and are stamped accordingly. The green can be so wet that you can see water come out when you drive in a nail. But one thing that many people don't think about is that, no matter what condition the wood is prepared to at the mill, it will always, and I mean _always_, reach what is called "equilibrium moisture content" which depends on the environment it is stored or used in. That's why wood shrinks and swells, mostly tangential to the growth rings, with changes in seasons. A finish can slow down the exchange rate of moisture between the wood and the environment, but can't prevent it. An excellent book on the subject is "Understanding Wood, A Craftsman's Guide To Wood Technology", by R. Bruce Hoadley.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim

I would have to say that it's reqires a bit more than that as a explanation.

In the following picture...
[*] The light outer band is 'sapwood'
[*] Sapwood is the living, outermost portion of a woody stem or branch.
[/list][*] The darker band is 'heartwood'
[*] Heartwood is the dead, inner wood, which often comprises the majority of a stem’s cross-section.
[/list][*] The little darkest center is the 'pith'
[*] Tree pith is generally present in young growth, but in the trunk and older branches, the pith is often replaced, in great part, by a woody substance called xylem.
[/list][/list]


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 29 Sep 2010 07:08 PM 
Given the fact the most of todays lumber is not kiln dried it will warp, split, crack and cup. Will sealing it with something stops this? 

Something like Thompson water seal? Or just plain varnish?

What do you recomend for sealing wood to keep it from warping. 

JJ 

Knowing you...you've built something...and all the previous posts are about NOT buying cheap wood...and how to select "better wood"...aren't what you were looking for, but they are the right answer. The short answer to YOUR question...is that you cannot keep "wet" wood (not kiln dried) that is exposed to the weather from warping, splitting, cupping, or cracking. If you use the kiln dried wood, you have a better chance of maintaining alignments over time, especially if you seal it. 

The moisture INSIDE the "wet wood" is gonna get out over time...because it's exposed to your desert climate...and that process causes the warping, splitting, cupping, and cracking. Putting a sealer on cheap, "wet" wood keeps the moisture inside until the sealer degrades...and till then, it stays sorta straight....but once the sealer degrades, then the interior moisture will escape...and you get the warping, etc. So, if you built something with the cheaper, "wet" wood that you need to stay straight...spray it will sealer yearly.


I've found that a Hudson sprayer loaded with Thompson Water Seal, sprayed on my decks YEARLY does a pretty good job of keeping them water resistant...and it's easy to apply...but the wood still shrinks in size. I've NOT found any sealer that really lasts longer than 1 year in the kind of heat you and I get...and I only get a few days of 100 plus degrees a year. You can tell when the water resistance has failed by spraying water on the wood...if the water doesn't bead, it's been absorbed...and that means your water resistance is toast.


----------



## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

*OLD *furniture (at least 50+ years old ) would seem to provide good seasoned timber. They made things from properly seasoned wood in those days. Trees cut lengthways into large planks, with bark on their edges! each laid one on the other with spacers from the next and air dried under a roof with wood walls with spaces between the wall boards for the air to circulate. Imagine a tree cut into planks and reassembled. The timber yards in Cardiff, South Wales where I lived as a youngster had quite a few timber yards near the docks and had planks stacked with the dates on their edges and ends and I remember some were 10 to 15 years old. Excellent quality timber.

Rubbish centre or second hand furniture shops are a good source of old furniture.


----------



## Ross (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks to whoever sorted my multiple posts out. 
I will be more awake in future! 

Think I will visit the rubbish centre tomorrow..see what's around. Who knows..it could turn up on the Antiques Roadshow what with the stuff some people throw out as "useless". 

Ross.


----------



## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

I've found some really good wood at the "rubbish centre." Around her, we call it a transfer point, I guess because the trash gets "transferred" from my trash can to the county. From there it goes to be burned and converted into electricity.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By SteveC on 12 Oct 2010 02:55 PM 
Jim

I would have to say that it's reqires a bit more than that as a explanation.

In the following picture...
[*] The light outer band is 'sapwood'
[*] Sapwood is the living, outermost portion of a woody stem or branch.
[/list][*] The darker band is 'heartwood'
[*] Heartwood is the dead, inner wood, which often comprises the majority of a stem’s cross-section.
[/list][*] The little darkest center is the 'pith'
[*] Tree pith is generally present in young growth, but in the trunk and older branches, the pith is often replaced, in great part, by a woody substance called xylem.
[/list][/list]








The picture you posted is of a yew branch (same photo on Wikipedia), which is not typical of the lumber under discussion. The construction lumber at big box stores is almost always all sapwood. The distinction I was trying to make is that the center portion of those boards, the part I cut out and use for firewood, is not heartwood.


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Jim, you are correct, but it's a good basic visual to describe the delineation between sapwood, heartwood, and pith. Although there is great variation across species.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I did some more research in my reference book, and learned that the correct term for the center of these boards is "juvenile wood", sometimes called "pith wood". It is formed by rapid growth in the first few years, usually of plantation timber. The problem comes from the fact that it has a longitudinal moisture shrinkage rate that is ~20 times that of the rest of the board, making the board unstable with respect to moisture changes and prone to warping. I knew it wasn't good stuff and I didn't like it, but I didn't know that was the reason. My solution for making projects out of pine is to buy the best No. 2 1X12s I can find at a big box store, then cut out about the middle 2-3" which gives me some nice stable quartersawn lumber that I can use for frames, stiles and rails as is or glue up into wider panels.


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I guess my question would be what is this lumber you are inquiring about to be used for?
Many types of wood besides treated yellow pine lumber can be left outdoors and/or in contact directly with the ground with little or no rot or seasonal movement for years. There's redwood, cedar, cyrpress, oak, ash, poplar that I've used in direct contact with the ground and with little or no sealant and ages just fine. The fast growth Spruce Pine Fir [SPF], framing lumber, from most big lumber yards WILL definitely rot, warp spilt, turn to a spongy mess and do anything it wants to in a short time when put outdoors untreated. There's lots of alternatives to that yellow pine or SPF stuff. If you insist on using that then I would use a water sealer or stain to prevent decay and sun damage. I just use other species for my outdoor wood models and they age gracefully.


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

My comment would be that all wood moves with changes in humidity. I think most wood is air diried to around 22% moisture. Kiln drying will take it down to aound 6%.
I had some cherry sawed out to 1" boards. It was sticker and the top was covered out side for about a year. The next winter I brought it in the house and stickered it 
for about a month. As i have wood heat the moinsture content in the wood dropped to about 6%. The quality pieces held thier shape, and the junk split, twisted and
cupped. Unless the wood is quarter sawn, it will cup. Thats why it the face needs to be jointed prior to planing.

So air dried lumber is not the same as green lumber. Kiln dried lumber if stored for a long time outside will take on moisture back up to 20% unless its in the desert.
Wood will move.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is why I asked the question. I am working on a storage system. I have to make shelves 11 feet long to accomdage my 5 car articulated container train. I am thinking of making them from wood. I am concerened about warping. The shelves must mate to a mechanism to unload the trains from the shelves. The mechanism must mate every time. If I am going to run into warping problems then the system will not work. So I was wondering if sealing the wood would prevent the warping. It gets warm here in the desert and this system will not be in climate controled area


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

My opinion is that sealing wood is not going to prevent movement (cupping, twist, bow). All sufaces shoulds be sealed if you try it. Direct sunlight will cause serious 
damage or distortion. My advise is if you are going to used wood, Your design needs to account for wood movment as it is going to happen. A board will change mainly in width not in length. Long boards will bow over time especially if not supported along the length. 
Plywood is better but not perfect. I thnk MDF is said to be stable but I have not worked with it and I don't know if your project will be exposed to the weather.


----------



## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Jerry

I agree with you, local lumber yards are usually a better source of quality dimensional lumber.

Another fact about "modern" lumber is the dimensional shrinkage. By this I mean we pay for the width of the saw cut between boards at the mill. A 2 x 4 is never actually 2" x 4". My first house I bought some 30 years ago was built around 1910. I did some remodeling of the inside and removed a door and filled in the opening with new 2 x 4s. I was careful to line up the edge of the 2 x 4 along the bottom plate on one side. when I walked to the other side I thought i had done poor job of aligning the studs, no the original 2 x 4 bottom plate was spot on as a 2 x 4, the modenr lumber was something like 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". A little bit of shimming was required to replace the wood consumed in the saw cut. Lesson learned.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ...if I were you, I'd used MDF or OSB...probably OSB. Both are engineered woods that are immune to warping and are widely available in the Home Depot/Lowes stores in many thicknesses. Neither has a "grain" so there's no basis for cupping or twisting. MDF is used in a lot of furniture because of it's ability to NOT expand...all those vinyl covered shelves you see for sale at HD/Lowes are MDF. 


OSB is used for sheathing on homes. It replaced plywood for the most part...and is stronger than plywood for a given thickness. Roofs that required 1/2" plywood sheathing now can get 7/16" OSB sheathing. Personally, I like OSB more than MDF..with one drawback. One side of OSB is rough...MDF is smooth on both sides.


Neither of these products should be left unsealed in the weather...but paint is all you need to protect them. 


More information here.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When I started this thread I was thiniking OSB. My thought is to use OSB and put a 1x2 stip down the middle on edge to give it support over the length. The Mating part may have to be a metal gaget of some sort. 

JJ


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

John, 

I believe I uderstand your plans now. I assume when you say storage system that it is going to be out of the rain and sun if not actually climate controlled? That will determine how much of a sealant you might want to use. 

If so I think your idea of making minature laminated Beams will solve your strength & stability issues OSB or MDF should both work from a stability standpoint and the wood strip or I beam sides will hold the engineered material flat & straight. I think OSB might be the lighter, cheaper option. If you need a glass smooth surface then use the MDF. Then do what Mike says regarding giving it a seal coat of primer or some other left over exterior finish product you have laying around. 

Scott


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

JJ, 
Can you be more specific about the environment the storage system will be in? Will it be shielded from the rain? (Yes, I know you live in a desert, but you still get SOME rain, right?) The temperature is not an issue, and sunlight is not much of an issue. When it comes to wood and wood-based products, it's all about moisture. Neither MDF nor OSB are suitable for environments where they can get wet. Even a solid-film coating (e.g. paint) will not completely prevent moisture absorption. But if your storage system is covered and up off the ground, and just happens to be outdoors, then either of those materials could work.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The wood will be inside these.

sheltered from the Rain but will be hot during the summer. 

JJ


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

JJ- have you thought about using an LVL beam turned on it's side (so, it would look like a sideways ' I ' beam)? LVLs are made of OSB. They are dimensionally very stable and they come in long lengths. -Kevin


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By dieseldude on 22 Oct 2010 09:48 PM 
JJ- have you thought about using an LVL beam turned on it's side (so, it would look like a sideways ' I ' beam)? LVLs are made of OSB. They are dimensionally very stable and they come in long lengths. -Kevin 



I have never heard of a LVL beam. So I have not tired them. Where can I find these? 
JJ


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

John

laminated veneer lumber (LVL)

GP Lam® LVL[/b]


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

JJ- LVLs can be found at most lumber yards. I don't know about Home D or Lowes, but you could give them a shot as well. -Kevin


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By John J on 22 Oct 2010 08:16 PM 
The wood will be inside these.

sheltered from the Rain but will be hot during the summer. 

JJ 












Like I said earlier, temperature won't be a problem for the wood. I built a shelving system out of wood for storage inside a cargo container that sat outside in the sun here in San Diego County for years, and the wood was as good when we took it out as when I put it in.
A bigger concern might be the effect the interior temperatures might have on the plastic of your trains. It can get up to around 160F inside those things. I made the mistake of leaving a small flat-panel TV in my car one afternoon, and later discovered that the molded rear housing had assumed a whole new set of curves. It may have been in the direct sun, though. Fortunately, the electronics inside survived unscathed.


----------



## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

That reminds me of when I was on a base on the Kuwait Iraq boarder. At night when it cooled down to about 90, 
these guys would play electric guitair and drums inside a steel connex. It was still hot in there but talkabout loud. 
But we had some that were lined with plywood with air conditioners installed.


----------



## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I've made my own I-beams like what I think you may have in mind. I have a bunch of pipe clamps which are essential. If you don't have any then you might be able to borrow some from woodworker friends. Something that opens up wider than the width of the shelves you wish to build. I've made beams with MDF and glued 2 inch wide strips, [think 1x2",s] If you want to get real fancy route a shallow groove the narrow width of your MDF or strand board and use weatherproof Titebond or better yet, get a tube of construction adhesive and you will, for all intents and purposes have an LVL beam just like other folks have spoken of. I've made beams with 1x4 and 1x6 lumber as the wide part and you can clamp that up with drywall screws every few inches through the side boards into the flat part of the beam if you don't have pipe clamps. That same technique will work with MDF pretty well but not quite as well with OSB as screws won't grip quite as well in the narrow width of OSB lke they will in MDF or pine boards. 
For what you have in mind though you may not even need to make an I beam, just laminate a rib or backbone 1x2 with a layer of glue down the underside of your shelves. That should be sufficient to keep the shelf from bowing under the weight of a model train.


----------

