# Which way to go?



## chucka (Mar 20, 2013)

Like many of us, i have run the gamut of scales from "N" all the way to 1" and 1.5" scale live steam. About a year and a half ago I decided to try out DCC and to do it with On30 scale. The locos with Sountraxx Tsunami decoders have been awesome. I am operating them with a MRC Prodigy Advance 2 system. Now i am wondering about my G scale stable of trains. I have a couple that have been converted to Locolinc quite a few years ago and it has been good, but now i am wondering about DCC. In addition to the Locolinc locomotives I have a bachmann shay and an LGB Sumpter Valley Mallet (with sound) that are still conventional and i am getting real close to acquiring a USA trains Big Boy (which i have heard has a great sound system). So i came upon this forum, joined, and thought i would ask for some advice. So, should i continue down the Locolinc path or switch down a DCC path? If DCC, i have been searching the forum for decoder recommendations and have noted some of those. My next question is how the MRC Prodigy Advance 2 system would fair in controlling any of these (it seems to not have much of a following here----it was a recommendation from my local hobby dealer). Further, i operate the G scale on a temporary basis indoors and on a 18' by 36' outdoor loop.

thank you


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. 
Loco link rarely gets mentioned here and by putting your querry in this DCC forum I doubt if many/any would advise against their choice... but Greg E can give you excellent pro DCC advice. 
I will raise the common issue of outdoor electrical problems and the added cost and to me the unsightly use of rail clamps. 
I chose a different solution, but the Emperor is the only one allowed to cross polinate a thread.... 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck,

Welcome to the forum. Lots of great information here.

But I have to agree with John, Greg Elmassian would be the one to ask about the use of DCC. And Locolink is rarely mentioned here because of the advancement of other "technologies". I went "another" way for running outdoors. John mentioned rail joiners....outdoors is a whole new world when electricity is involved!







FRUSTRATION happens when running outdoors! AND with a BIG BOY, you need the best laid track and electrical.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

My biggest concern with converting to DCC in your case would be the compatibility of the sound systems in your existing locos with DCC, especially if keeping that functionality is a primary concern. Not knowing anything about them, they may or may not work with DCC. You may have to run them off of the motor output, which is really how they run in "analog" DC anyway. The catch is that some sound systems (LGB is famous for this) don't like Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) that DCC and other command control systems use as a motor output. I'm pretty sure Locolink uses PWM, but don't quote me. I've only demo'd the system at conventions, and even that was a looonnngggg time ago. You can buy PWM to Linear filters (Aristo-Craft sells one) but that's another piece of electronics to install in the locomotive. Having said that, there are some top-drawer DCC sound/motor decoders available, so if you have to gut the stock sound system, what you replace it with will at the very least be equal to, if not better. (If you're already familiar with the Tsunami, they're coming out with a 4-amp steam sound board here in a few weeks.) 

In terms of your Prodigy Advance 2 system, "as a rule," I don't recommend it for large scale, because it's only 15 volts and 3.5 amp capacity. That's okay for programming and testing DCC installs (which is what I use it for) or running one or two very small large scale locos (critters, 0-4-0s, etc.). If you're going to run "big" large scale locos (and the USA Trains Big Boy epitomizes that), then you're going to want a system with more power. For large scale, typically what's recommended is a 10-amp system being fed by around 24 volts. Plenty of choices in that range from the various manufacturers. Others will, I'm sure, chime in with their favorites. I run battery power, so I don't really have an opinion as to which manufacturer's system I'd find "best." I could tell you what others use, but they'll chime in in due course. 

Later, 

K


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## chucka (Mar 20, 2013)

Gents,

Thanks for the welcome and the input. I thought i might have to put my question in beginners, so i may have jumped to the wrong section too quickly.  I also have to admit that the outside set-up is temporary as well. It runs around the pool on the concrete apron. I also was pretty sure Locolinc was old technology and was really surprised to see it is still being manufactured. For the engines converted to locolinc i used their sound cards and for one other i believe it was Sierra.
East Broad Top, thanks for the responses and i am totally not opposed to changing sound in the converted units or the unconverted and the MRC can stay with On30 and that will be fine. When doing some DCC research i figured Digitrax held a level of complexity i did not need, but then, when you really don't know what you need or how something actually does operate, you ask for a recommendation and that is how i ended up with the MRC and for the small On30 collection i have it does seem fine.
John, i hear you about outside electrical and would greatly like to hear your alternative, so lead me to the section where we can be "legal" in discussing it.
Gary, i would also like to hear more about your outside solution
But before i leave the DCC section, i do want to hear what the group recommends, knowing that starting from scratch is not a problem (and also aware that plug-and-play would be a myth) 
Thanks again for the responses and guidance 

Chuck


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chucka on 23 Mar 2013 11:00 AM 
Gents,

Thanks for the welcome and the input.

Gary, i would also like to hear more about your outside solution

Thanks again for the responses and guidance 

Chuck
Chuck,

Look to the left hand side of my post and notice where it says "Send Message" above my avatar and below my name. Click that and send me a message. Folks get into a real flame war around here regarding DCC and "other alternatives". Send a message to me and I will explain offline.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Chuck, 
I will let Gary be the diplomat, I was more reticent and read through various threads before trying to decide what I wanted. 
This is the only forum I tip toe in, I tried to make my control as simple as possible and even that gives me the willies. 

John


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

MRC does make an* 8 Amp Booster* for the Prodigy system. Not sure about the output voltage though, but if Kevin says it's 15V, I'll take his word for it. I doubt an 8 Amp booster would change that.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The question I read is should I go locolinc or DCC. 

Definitely DCC, many more options and if you drop $3500 on a big boy, it would be a shame not to run it. 

The big boy will take ALL the current you can feed it, so if it's in your future, I would not recommend anything under 10 amps. 

Also you will need higher voltage. 

The prodigy system will wind up being a poor choice for where you are going. 

Zimo has been promising a booster over 10 amps for a while.. and ESU seems to only go to 8 amps, and Massoth seems to have a 12 amp booster. 

I've not run a train over 10 amps, but I do have one that pulls 9.97 amps !! (a bunch of USAT lighted passenger cars, 3 E8 locos and a really stiff grade)... of course replacing the bulbs with leds in the cars will take the train back to about 6-7 amps. 

Don't make the mistake of trying to save $300 on a system once and pay for it for a long time. If you have Locolinc, you must "stick with" something for a while. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. I don't see any "compatibility of sound system issues", so unless someone can tell you something concrete I would not worry about that comment.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Massoth does have a 12 Amp system. I run one and love it. NCE offers a 10 Amp system for quite a bit less. We have them for just under $600


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, does the Massoth booster accept DC for input? I'd like some more amps (although for me 12 vs 10 is not that big a deal)... I DO need a full 24v DCC to the rails. 

Thanks, Greg 

(This is an important consideration for people running SG locos, to be able to achieve prototypical speeds on some locos)


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Yes, The name plate shows you can power it with up to 24 VDC, or 18 VAC. I would guess that it would take a higher voltage. But not wanting to test it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Mike, to get 24 volts out of a booster, you normally have to put 2-3 more volts into it. 

Maybe I can find someone who has tried a higher input voltage and gotten 24 volts out. (This is why I power my boosters with 27 vdc) 


Greg


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## chucka (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks all for the comments. I have been collecting info and really think moving away from locolinc for outdoors is a good choice and going with something more "state of the art", especially for the more expensive locos. I'll leave the locolinc for the Big Haulers and inside running (or for passing on to the next generation). I have been searching the forum and reading a lot of posts. I have also started my subscription to Garden Railways magazine.
I know i will have many more questions as time goes by and i am glad to be connected to the collection of experts here on MLS

Chuck


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, What is the advantage of using DC input.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Being able to supply a regulated input means different things to different boosters. 

For example, an NCE booster is an unregulated booster, i.e. the output voltage mirrors the input voltage. So if you power it from an unregulated supply, then the booster output is likewise unregulated, i.e. it can vary, sag under load, etc. 

So you get more consistent running, and under heavy load, the trains won't run slowly as compared to a light load. 

You can easily find regulated DC supplies.... when is the last time you found a regulated AC supply? 

There are other reasons, for example if you need to run at the high end of the input voltage spec... also like I am doing... on other boosters... 

Basic reason is getting more consistent voltage levels on the rails irrespective of load. 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

That makes sense but say a 24V transformer is really cheap. If it is a little over size you wouldn't see much if any drop would ya? But your not going to find a 27V secondary.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, and rubbing two sticks together will make a fire too... but most people can afford the slight additional cost of a Bic and it works so much better.... sorry... just have to make an analogy. 

*This is a long discussio*n, and a 24 volt AC transformer will not give you the same output as 24 volt DC and a 10 amp transformer is not cheap and a meanwell is about $60 and 10% drop can make a difference and that is a logical spec and yes you can find 27 v ac transformers but again that is not equal to 24v dc, and you really should know the rms conversion, and there are more factors, and on and on. 

Or you could just take my word for it...









Getting 35 years of experience in a couple of paragraphs and explaining electronic theory is kind of hard. 

bottom line: a regulated voltage on the rails in DCC really helps as opposed to unregulated... helps in many ways, and it's only slightly more expensive than buying a transformer.[/b] 


Greg 

p.s. some time take a 10 amp transformer, and measure the voltage unloaded and then under 10 amps... you will be surprised.

p.p.s. this is sort of like the bridgewerks supplies putting out 35 volts when no load... (here come the flames)


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I liked the line about a BIC. It always seems that many are looking to save $'s.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

While the theoretical reasons hold, I approached this from the point of view of buying the recommended transformer from NCE and noticing some strange behavior in my trains... then when I finally got enough instruments to look at what was on the rails, it was looking very poor. 

I applied my knowledge of electronics and reasoned the erratic and inconsistent running qualities were related to the signal degradation and distortion I saw on my instruments. 

Once I put in a regulated supply, all these issues vanished. 

Regards, Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I know you have interest in higher voltage and amperage. But did not know that you looked a regulated power supply as being more reliable. I also understand that an unregulated supply can go way over voltage with out load. Very interesting. I will keep that in mind when looking at problems with DCC installations.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Consistent ...not reliable... Consistent... 

If you have a properly sized transformer, not unusual to have it vary 20% in voltage under load..... this is independent of the actual size. 

Now you take into consideration that motors react to voltage in a nonlinear fashion, and you vary the voltage since load is changing... now you get inconsistent speed... That's the "low frequency" part. 

Looking at the DCC waveforms in more detail, you can see that varying load helps distort the waveform, that can cause errors in the signal. DCC is pretty darn resilient but you get far away from a feed point and run some good current and add some electrical noise and you get inconsistent operation. 

Since my 10 amp meanwell costs about $60 and the NCE 12 amp 18v AC transformer costs costs about $83 .... well I think you can see this is actually a moot point... there is a reason switching power supplies exist, lower power and actually cheaper than a transformer the size of a boat anchor. 

Regards, Greg


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