# DCC for 7.5 in guage



## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Hello everyone

This was the closest forum I could find to what I think may have some answers. I am currently building a 1/8th scale Union Pacific turbine loco (GTEL). It's a first generation, with the car body, not the veranda style. I am building it as a drive by wire design. The power source is a 18 HP V-twin, driving a hydraulic pump, with hydraulic motors on each truck. I plan on using a "drive-by-wire" design, so that I can sit on a riding car behind the engine, and not have to have mechanical linkages sticking off the back.


I got to thinking about DCC because then I can use a sound board driven by Tsunami, I think, or another company, for the great sound effects. I plan on having a 12 volt DC power system on-board. For control options, i need the following, at a minimum:


engine throttle (increase/decrease engine RPM)

forward/reverse speed (control hydraulic pump output (variable speed, not notched)

horn
bell
lights (possibly multiple configurations)

ignition (to start the motor)

What would be a good DCC controller? 

Can DCC be rigged in such a way that the controller on-board the engine takes the input directly from the control unit, and not via the tracks/wheels?
Are the controllers able to handle the higher current/amp output of a 12 volt system?
Would signals have to be stepped up between the control board and the servo actuators?

Since this is the beginning of the research down this train of though (pardon the pun) any and all comments/suggestions are welcomed.Thanks.


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## MrDCC (Dec 27, 2007)

John, I presume - 

Look into the AirWire system from CVP. It transmits DCC commands over radio. NCE makes a version of their ProCab with the G-wire (compatible with AirWire) transmitter in it. The NCE product is MUCH more user friendly and ergonomic than the CVP cab. Where I am a bit fuzzy is the interface with the Tsunami (a GOOD choice for sound). The AirWire receiver board could provide proportional control of your loco throttle through some sort of solenoid or servo mechanism, as well as controlling lighting functions.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

John 

I know that Railroad Supply Corp [New Hampshire] offers sound on their 7.5 in diesels using Phoenix sound through a huge on board amplifier. You might contact them about remote control options that they may have installed


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Hi Bruce, thanks for the reply. I want to stay away from wireless, for specific reasons. We pull loaded passengers behind our locomotives, and I don't want to run the risk, however minimal, of a signal loss, and a train out of control. Considering that my engine alone will weigh in the neighborhood of 1500+ pounds, the thought of a runaway is unthinkable. So, i guess I should also have included that in case of signal loss (whether wireless or wired) there has to be a fail safe condition that the controller uses to swiftly, but not abruptly stop the train. 

John


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Jim 

I already checked with Phoenix, about the sound, and they don't have a file for the turbine. That would have been option one, they are used on many loco's in my scale. That is why I was looking at DCC. 

John


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Here is a member of AirWire Group in Yahoo, you might check with him if you change your mind about wireless!! Regal

Richard Day holding Controller 

Here's a link to the group

AirWire : a User Group for CVP's AirWire system


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First, DCC is a great idea, because you can find DCC boards that do about anything. 

First thought would be a DCC decoder that can control servos, so you could hook a servo to a hydraulic control for the throttle and reversing gear.

You might have to amplify, or use relays for higher current lights or the starter motor.

Can you get a dc system, sure! Look into the NCE PowerCab system. For a few hundred, you get a DCC handheld/wired controller (you could add wireless later if you want).


The PowerCab is a combination of DCC throttle and DCC command station and DCC booster all built into the throttle. 



The PowerCab has a 3 amp output to run your DCC decoder. The system comes with a wall wart that puts out 12 or 15v DC I believe. You would just power the system from DC instead of using the wall wart.


Then you can run ANY DCC decoder. The Airwire system is limited in the functionality it can control, not every DCC decoder can have all functions controlled, and more importantly, programmed by it.

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Looking at the problem you don't have to go wireless. You can use a Central station such as ZIMO and throttle it down to 12 volt. You use a wired cab and send informaiton to the central station. THe trackoutput of the central station would go to your motor controls. And trhe good news is that in the ZIMO sound library is a Gas Turbine engine. THe first time I installed this for a customer I thought yeez that's weired thingy, but it works. Of course the startup sequence of that engine is the best of all.

But I am not quite sure if 10W amplification is enough for you, but you can always buy one of these car boosters that poeple have in the trunk







to squeeze 100W or more out of the system.

The final problem is is the motor control required to delvier more than 6 Amps on a permanent basis?


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 12 Sep 2011 06:42 PM 
Looking at the problem you don't have to go wireless. You can use a Central station such as ZIMO and throttle it down to 12 volt. You use a wired cab and send information to the central station. The track output of the central station would go to your motor controls. And the good news is that in the ZIMO sound library is a Gas Turbine engine. The first time I installed this for a customer I thought yeez that's weird thingy, but it works. Of course the start-up sequence of that engine is the best of all.

But I am not quite sure if 10W amplification is enough for you, but you can always buy one of these car boosters that people have in the trunk







to squeeze 100W or more out of the system.

The final problem is is the motor control required to deliver more than 6 Amps on a permanent basis?

An interesting solution. I will look into this some more. My power source to the wheels is actually hydraulic motors, driven by a hydraulic pump, which is powered by a lawn mower engine. So I really just need to control the servos that would control the gas engine RPM, and then the hydraulic selector for forward/reverse, which is also the actual speed controller. Then the sound board, which could easily go through a nice amplifier, and lights, horn, bell, etc. So i don't know about the 6 amps, but I shouldn't think that the servos would require that much amperage.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The one thing I would recommend is to make sure whatever controller you use, it has some form of proportional control over the throttle--a knob, slider, or thumbwheel--so you can quickly jack up or down the throttle and move those servos quickly when you have to. Pushbutton control for servos leaves a lot to be desired, as the response time just isn't there. (To say nothing of having no solid indication of _where_ the servos are positioned.) I've got pushbutton control of one of my live steamers, and it's just too slow to be effective. If you're pulling passengers, you want to be able to keep the speeds smooth as possible. (And if they're "loaded" passengers, you'll want to keep the speeds even smoother.  ) 

Keep us posted on the progress. I love seeing outside-the-box applications of technology. 

Later, 

K


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

John: You should take a look at the Massoth DCC system, and see if it fits you needs. We have a fan cooled central station with adjustable and stabilized output, a highly sophisticated handheld controller, a variety of sound boards with rc servo control function outputs, and an 8amp universal relay. You can find detailed descriptions and users manuals for all our products on our websites: http://www.massothusa.com/ and http://www.allaboutlgb.com/. We can even have the Massoth factory modify certain products to meet your specifications.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed should let you know he is a dealer for Massoth, especially in light of recent postings regarding this by moderators.

For the record, am not a dealer for anything, or receive or accept any compensation for my recommendations.

The Massoth system will be very expensive, that is why I suggested the NCE PowerCab system, over $1,000 less... 

Let's all consider what is helpful for this gentleman, and if you have a suggestion, you might want to identify the rough costs, this is a control for a single locomotive.

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By mbendebba on 13 Sep 2011 09:24 AM 
John: You should take a look at the Massoth DCC system, and see if it fits you needs. *We have *a fan cooled central station with adjustable and stabilized output, a highly sophisticated handheld controller, a variety of sound boards with rc servo control function outputs, and an 8amp universal relay. You can find detailed descriptions and users manuals for all *our products on our websites*: http://www.massothusa.com/ and http://www.allaboutlgb.com/%20.%20We. *We can *even have the Massoth factory modify certain products to meet your specifications.


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By East Broad Top on 12 Sep 2011 10:38 PM 
The one thing I would recommend is to make sure whatever controller you use, it has some form of proportional control over the throttle--a knob, slider, or thumb wheel--so you can quickly jack up or down the throttle and move those servos quickly when you have to. Push button control for servos leaves a lot to be desired, as the response time just isn't there. (To say nothing of having no solid indication of _where_ the servos are positioned.) I've got push button control of one of my live steamers, and it's just too slow to be effective. If you're pulling passengers, you want to be able to keep the speeds smooth as possible. (And if they're "loaded" passengers, you'll want to keep the speeds even smoother.  ) 

Keep us posted on the progress. I love seeing outside-the-box applications of technology. 

Later, 

K 
Proportional control is a must, both for the engine RPM, and the hydraulic pump controls. I have driven several locomotives in my scale that have a toggle switch to increase/decrease engine RPM. It's not a very elegant solution, at all. Having absolute control over both is a requirement in my mind. This is a work in progress, I am still in the early construction stage. Four double axle trucks require a lot of machining. I think at last count I had 50 parts per truck, not including screws and bolts to hold them all together.


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

I would love to set it all up to run through my iPad. Develop some kind of app so I have touch screen controls for all the functions, and can also see engine parameters, such as RPM, oil temp, oil pressure, speed (real or scale), etc. Since I am going to have a 12 volt system, i could even have a charger adapter, so I can provide the iPad with power, so it doesn't go into screen saver. And then join that to a GPS, so I can map out my tracks for fun. That would be one slick app! Alas, I don't have the know how to do that, but I think it would be kinda neat.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Johnbergt on 13 Sep 2011 06:09 PM 
I would love to set it all up to run through my iPad.
Well, if you're seriously thinking of buying a complete DCC system to control just one loco, there is the TouchCab and WiThrottle today - an application for the iPad can't be far behind.


But for all of those you need very specific DCC central stations.

Knut


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By krs on 13 Sep 2011 06:53 PM 

Well, if you're seriously thinking of buying a complete DCC system to control just one loco, there is the TouchCab and WiThrottle today - an application for the iPad can't be far behind.


But for all of those you need very specific DCC central stations.

Knut 


i saw both of those, just by doing some digging. Going the iPad route would eliminate the DCC part, by just being a direct connection via the usb cable to the loco. I think the functionality is there, however, pulling it all together, writing a GUI for the iPad, and doing all the other behind the scenes work is way more effort then it is worth, and all way beyond what I can do.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Maybe I'm missing what you have already and/or what you want. 
But all an iPad will do once the appropriate application is written for it, is essentially the same as the TouchCab. 
It's just a controller for some sort of throttle.


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By krs on 13 Sep 2011 07:31 PM 
Maybe I'm missing what you have already and/or what you want. 
But all an iPad will do once the appropriate application is written for it, is essentially the same as the TouchCab. 
It's just a controller for some sort of throttle. 


I think I got a bit side tracked. My main curiosity was around feasibility, and I think it is feasible, but have to figure out the right application.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, you talk about a complete system, then mention 2 peripherals that require not only a command station and booster, but a wireless access point and a computer too? 

I cannot follow the logic... you are not only adding complexity, but didn't he say he did not want a wireless throttle? 

(for those who don't know... there are applications on smart phones that transmit over wifi... so it's smart phone >> 802.11 wireless access point >> network >> computer >> usb or serial >> command station / booster >> tracks (decoder)) 


Not because I suggested it, but believe the simplest and least complex solution with the fewest components using DCC has been presented... or if that is wrong, let me know... 

Adding more components and cost and wireless is not what was asked for I think... and why have the extra complexity or cost?


Greg 

p.s. Mohammed, I can read... just because you use the word we, not everyone realizes you are a dealer. You are relatively new here. You seem to never suggest anything but Massoth.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Sep 2011 10:52 PM 
Knut, you talk about a complete system, then mention 2 peripherals that require not only a command station and booster, but a wireless access point and a computer too? 

I cannot follow the logic... you are not only adding complexity, but didn't he say he did not want a wireless throttle? 


Greg,

I just mentioned that because johnbergt commented that he wanted to use an iPad but didn't have the time and/or expertise to write the appropriate application for that.

All I wanted to convey that if he just waits a short while, someone will have written that type of application for the iPad since it would just be an extension of the similar applications that already exist.

I'm not suggesting that this is the way to go; there is no logic to follow.
I think the suggestion to use a full-fledged command station, Zimo or Massoth or any other one is totally ridiculous.
Your suggestion to use the Power Cab makes the most sense - assuming there is some basic underlying need to use DCC at all.


If one looks at the requirements (which are very basic):

engine throttle (increase/decrease engine RPM)

forward/reverse speed (control hydraulic pump output (variable speed, not notched)

horn
bell
lights (possibly multiple configurations)

ignition (to start the motor)

....controlled by a wired handheld


That doesn't automatically mean "DCC" to me at all.


Knut 



BTW - The TouchCab doesn't require a PC but it does require very specific DCC command stations - right now either the ESU one or the Lenz one with the new interface.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

If you didn't buy your servos yet you should look for the main throttle function look into Firegelli http://www.firgelli.com/
I saw these used with the throttle on a DCC control versus the direct servo outputs. So on for an MX695LV/KV you could use the Firgelli as your main throttle and then use 4 more servos for other control fucntions in either on/off mode or proportional mode.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Knut, I did not realize what he meant by using an iPad, you are completely right. For some reason, even though reading it, my brain discarded that data ha ha! You are right. 

He did not want to go wireless from his early posts. The iPad will not be any good in sunlight, nor will it be rugged enough to run outside in my opinion. Any display needs to be very visible in direct sun in my opinion... I've never seen a color display that can do this... and I have several tablets.. though more of my tablets are Droid and not iPhone/iPad operating system. 

DCC makes sense if you wanted to use a lot of DCC functions, or sophisticated sound. 

In this case, the only DCC motor functions that I think are helpful are momentum and possibly custom speed curves. 
On the sound side, though, DCC makes a lot of sense, the most sophisticated sound cards need DCC to control them, and they have a lot of customizable functions. The Zimo is available with a 14 watt (I think) amp, which might be sufficient alone. 

On controllers, I would take a high contrast black and white LCD display, that can be seen in full sunlight. 

So this is what ran me down the path of a "true" DCC system.... 

Anyway, I think we've given a lot of ideas, now we need to hear if there are any other criteria, like cost, size, complexity, ability to be seen in full sunlight, etc. 

Will be interested to see what the eventual solution comes out to be. 

Regards, Greg


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## Therios (Sep 28, 2008)

Electronically, DCC can do everything you ask. When you boil it down to functionality, whatever DCC decoder you would choose can be interfaced to whatever you need. The light outputs can drive whatever lighting circuits you need. They are after all just voltage. Same with the drive motor. All you would need are pretty simple circuits that would control whatever current you need. 

Basically, whatever DCC you run from controller to track to decoder is very traditional. Simple interfaces to handle increased current and possibly change in voltage is not that hard at all and probably off the shelf to some extent. From an electronics standpoint, nothing is much different that taking the sound output and amplifying it to drive massive sound systems. It is just a signal that you add an interface to so as to drive speakers.


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Sep 2011 08:12 AM 

Anyway, I think we've given a lot of ideas, now we need to hear if there are any other criteria, like cost, size, complexity, ability to be seen in full sunlight, etc. 

Will be interested to see what the eventual solution comes out to be. 

Regards, Greg 

You guys have given me A LOT to think about, thanks. It's going to be a while still before I get to that point, but it's never to early to start thinking about it. Since the main reason for going DCC was for the sound files, i am not sure if it is the best solution. Perhaps some hybrid will eventually be figured out.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Therios on 14 Sep 2011 11:28 AM 
Electronically, DCC can do everything you ask. When you boil it down to functionality, whatever DCC decoder you would choose can be interfaced to whatever you need. The light outputs can drive whatever lighting circuits you need. They are after all just voltage. Same with the drive motor. All you would need are pretty simple circuits that would control whatever current you need. 

Basically, whatever DCC you run from controller to track to decoder is very traditional. Simple interfaces to handle increased current and possibly change in voltage is not that hard at all and probably off the shelf to some extent. From an electronics standpoint, nothing is much different that taking the sound output and amplifying it to drive massive sound systems. It is just a signal that you add an interface to so as to drive speakers. 

Therios:

You are absolutely on target. The only thing I would add it that some DCC systems can do it natively, others do not even come close.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And now several DCC decoders have servo outputs, which makes sense for this application. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

John, if you are willing to invest a little time in learning about programmable microcontrollers, you could build yourself a system for very little money that would accomplish what you want. Do a search on Arduino and also have a look at the Basic Micro Atom (that's the chip I like to use). 
In a nutshell, these chips have a bunch of pins that can act either as an input or an output. So for your example, you would connect one of the input pins to your throttle, which could be a potentiometer, joystick, etc. The chip sees the data coming from your throttle as a series of numbers, and you program it to act on them accordingly. So the highest number it gets becomes full throttle etc. Then you have one of the pins act as an output to a servo or linear actuator as Axel pointed out, to control the throttle on your gas motor. Similarly you could have another lever/throttle controlling your hydraulic valve, since I'm guessing you want it to be adjustable so you can have say full gas throttle but slow on the hydaulic pump for maximum starting power. You can have independant buttons connected to other input pins, then use other output pins to trigger sounds, lights or whatever. I'm sorry if it sounds complicated, but it really isn't so bad once you spend a little time on it. The programming languages are simple to learn and since controlling servos is very common there is lots of information on it. This system would give you the most flexibility for the least $, in my opinion. 

Keith


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 14 Sep 2011 05:48 PM 
John, if you are willing to invest a little time in learning about programmable microcontrollers, you could build yourself a system for very little money that would accomplish what you want. Do a search on Arduino and also have a look at the Basic Micro Atom (that's the chip I like to use). 
In a nutshell, these chips have a bunch of pins that can act either as an input or an output. So for your example, you would connect one of the input pins to your throttle, which could be a potentiometer, joystick, etc. The chip sees the data coming from your throttle as a series of numbers, and you program it to act on them accordingly. So the highest number it gets becomes full throttle etc. Then you have one of the pins act as an output to a servo or linear actuator as Axel pointed out, to control the throttle on your gas motor. Similarly you could have another lever/throttle controlling your hydraulic valve, since I'm guessing you want it to be adjustable so you can have say full gas throttle but slow on the hydaulic pump for maximum starting power. You can have independant buttons connected to other input pins, then use other output pins to trigger sounds, lights or whatever. I'm sorry if it sounds complicated, but it really isn't so bad once you spend a little time on it. The programming languages are simple to learn and since controlling servos is very common there is lots of information on it. This system would give you the most flexibility for the least $, in my opinion. 

Keith 
Kieth

It's funny you should mention Arduino. Just last night I found video's on YouTube of people using their iPad to control a robotic bird via a cable from Redpark, connected to an RS232 port on an Arduino card. That did get me thinking. Greg brought up a very good point though, in one of his comments, sunlight readability, and since I live in Phoenix, we have a lot of that. 


John


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## Therios (Sep 28, 2008)

Or if you feel like programming via flowcharting without code (unless you wanna do something custom) you can use a PICaxe. You can program all the major stuff in flowcharting and then generate the code. You can then customize it in basic. 

The PICaxe has servo control with simple one statement commands as well. Just an alternate option.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Johnbergt on 14 Sep 2011 11:53 AM 
Since the main reason for going DCC was for the sound files...........

I don't really understand where sound files come in at all.

Our Large Scale trains mostly use electric motors (except live steam of course).


Those and the gearing to drive the wheels, are pretty much silent or at least close to it.
So sound systems are used to simulate what the real prototype engine would sound like - be it steam, diesel or even electric.

In your case, you use an 18 HP V-twin motor, driving a hydraulic pump, with hydraulic motors on each truck.
I assume the 18HP motor is something like this: 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200115224_200115224and is on-board.

That motor will be pretty loud- do you expect a sound system to drown out the motor?
Even if it could, you would still hear the V-Twin motor.


I think for a sound system of any type to make sense in this set up, you need to use a different power source, one that is quiet.


Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think sound is a great idea. I have a friend who put a Phoenix sound card in a live steamer... people were aghast at the idea... UNTIL... they heard it, a realistic chuff, and whistle and bell... they all went wow! 

The sound file to match his loco will really add a dimension of reality .... and a GOOD sound card with bass and treble, and high quality recordings... 

Greg


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## Johnbergt (Sep 12, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Sep 2011 09:40 PM 
I think sound is a great idea. I have a friend who put a Phoenix sound card in a live steamer... people were aghast at the idea... UNTIL... they heard it, a realistic chuff, and whistle and bell... they all went wow! 

The sound file to match his loco will really add a dimension of reality .... and a GOOD sound card with bass and treble, and high quality recordings... 

Greg 

There are quiet a few guys who have put sound systems, especially from Phoenix, into their gas driven locos, just a question of how big then amp is.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Sep 2011 09:40 PM 
I think sound is a great idea. I have a friend who put a Phoenix sound card in a live steamer... people were aghast at the idea... UNTIL... they heard it, a realistic chuff, and whistle and bell... they all went wow! 

The sound file to match his loco will really add a dimension of reality .... and a GOOD sound card with bass and treble, and high quality recordings... 

Greg 
For a live steamer I can see that working well.

For one, a steam sound system will complement the natural sound of a live steamer which is essentially a miniature steam engine. The normal sound of a live steamer also isn't that much louder than a loco with an electric motor.

But if the prime power is essentially a lawn tractor gas engine which is a heck of a lot louder I really have a hard time visualizing how well this would work regardless of the amplification of any 'artificial' sound.

The 'artificial' sound will include soft passages during which, I would imagine, the gas engine is clearly audible.


But then again, I have no practical experience in that area.
I would just hate to see someone spend hundreds and even thousands of dollars and then find out that the end result is not what was expected.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I hear you (pun intended) Knut, but I was not making assumptions about the noise level of the motor overwhelming any possible sound system. 

Even if the prime mover "sounds" are loud, air pumps, air letoff, horn, bell, brake squeal could all be used. Using a DCC sound system makes it easy to tailor all the volume levels to accomplish this. 

I don't think the "artificial" sound would have many "soft passages".... ever listen to an Alco sound board! Nothing "soft" about those ha ha! 

Greg


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