# Bachmann discontinues Spectrum cars



## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

Perhaps I missed any discussions here. But on their forum, Bachmann announced there would be no future production of Spectrum rolling stock and that The locos would be evaluated as to manufacture when the inventory ran out of each model. THe reason was that the Garden scale market was extremely soft and dealers were very hesitant to carry an inventory of this guage. They had already announced there were no new products in the pike for the near future for the same reasons.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW, does not sound good for the hobby. MTH has some new stuff coming out and are doing a 4014 Big Boy, but it is a year or two away.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just another nail in the coffin of large scale. You can WISH for new people to enter the hobby all you want. But the fact is, without large scale items to sell, how in the world do you expect this hobby to expand. With more and more large scale companies going out of business or shifting their manufacturing base to "other" scales, expansion is just NOT going to happen. The "Glory Days" of the large scale hobby is over. After over 30 years in the large scale hobby (1/29 and 1/20.3), I finally dropped out of it a couple of years ago and went back to my 1/8 scale (1-1/2" scale) ride-on trains (after an absence of 10 years), where their inventory of parts, car kits and loco kits are abundant. I'm actually building seven Baldwin electric freight engines right now. The outlook for the future of very large scale ride-on size is very good!.

At 72 years old, I really don't have the option of "waiting" for better times.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My interpretation of the thread is that Bachmann is going to suspend production of Spectrum products, not discontinue production. They said they would suspend production until such time as the large scale market improves.

To me suspend is temporary, discontinue is perminant.

Here is a link to the entire thread.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,30542.0.html

Chuck


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

But is this really any different than the way things have *always* been?
I have been in the hobby since 2000, 15 years, and during those 15 years pretty much all product lifespans have gone like this:

1. New model comes out, locomotive or rolling stock, any manufacturer, doesn't matter what it is or who made it.

2. It's available new for a awhile, and it sells.

3. It sells out.

4. Then it *might* be re-released as another run..or it might not. depending on previous sales volume, time to sell out, and the economy at the time.

To me, that seems like "standard operating procedure" for the hobby, been that way for the past 15 years, probably longer...How is what Bachmann is saying now, any different than that? 

Scot


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

chuck n said:


> My interpretation of the thread is that Bachmann is going to suspend production of Spectrum products, not discontinue production. They said they would suspend production until such time as the large scale market improves.
> 
> To me suspend is temporary, discontinue is perminant.
> 
> ...


Chuck,

Bachmann Spectrum product is geared to the "average" large scale consumer who wants a detailed car at competitive prices. If, as Yardmaster says, Bachmann STILL has product in their warehouses, then why aren't they selling it? Dealers are NOT buying to replenish inventory BECAUSE they already have too much inventory in their stock. The dealers won't sell off their inventory without customers. New customers would think TWICE before starting out in this hobby IF they were concerned that they could not get product or parts. It's a vicious circle and it's spiralling down (in my opinion). I visited Accucraft's table at the Spring Meet at Los Angeles Live Steamers last month. They were selling locomotives and rolling stock like "hot cakes". Same economy, but a whole different demographics. Engines in the $2000 range and UP, rolling stock in the $150 range and UP! They were even selling 7-1/2 inch gauge, 2-1/2 inch scale steam engines RTR in the $10,000 range and again, UP. The state of any economy in this demographic, price just doesn't MATTER. Never did. In the GARDEN LS hobby, it DOES!


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

This, in my opinion, is indicative of the hobby in general regardless of the scale. The problem lies in the cost and complexity of getting into the hobby.

Lets be honest here for a minute - the cost to get into the hobby in general exceeds most every day person disposable income, in fact, in today's environment, most people have no disposable income to spend on things like a hobby no matter what the hobby is. Manufacturers are succeeding at pricing themselves out of business because of this.

The other side of the fence is the complexity of DCC and the pressure on new comers to go DCC off of the bat. You can thank the NMRA (or whoever they are) for that, or more to the point - the elitist self serving hierarchy of the NMRA.

Now, lets add to that a little more. With mobs such as microsuck, apple and others pushing kids into sitting infront of a computer or game pad thing and becoming brain dead morons and anti social vegetables, how does a hobby such as ours compete? There is no violence, sex or unlawful goings on in our hobby and; therefore, nothing to attract the "so called" younger generation in general.

Bottom line here seems to me to be that in the not very distant future, our hobby will be dead a non event and those companies who make their money from us will be gone or greatly reduced.

If our hobby wants to survive we need to introduce younger people into it. That can only happen if (for one thing) it is a cost effective hobby to become apart of. That can only happen if greedy manufacturers cut the cost of their products (making them affordable) and therefore their profit line - and THAT wont happen.

What these companies don't realize is this - it is better to be selling their products and making a profit, than trying to sell them at inflated prices that many cant afford, in order to make overnight profits. The company that adopts the first scenario will survive. The companies that adopt the second option, and that is the majority if not all, will perish - period.

Bachmann can point the finger at the Retailer, BUT it is they who hold the cards to give the retailer the means by which to stock their product and that gentleman, is to put profits second to sales, pure and simple. Unfortunately, most companies are far too arrogant to acknowledge that fundamental principle.

Rave (of fact) over.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

wombat457 said:


> This, in my opinion, is indicative of the hobby in general regardless of the scale. The problem lies in the cost and complexity of getting into the hobby.
> 
> Lets be honest here for a minute - the cost to get into the hobby in general exceeds most every day person disposable income,
> 
> ...


WB,

Case in point regarding "cost and complexity of getting into the hobby"..........I have been involved with 1/8th scale railroading since 1980. Built a live steam locomotive, several pieces of rolling stock and then a P.E. Baldwin electric. In the mid 90's, a professor at my local community college and I decided to build several electrics as part of a class project (Machine Technology and MasterCam software). Now he and I are retired and decided to finish these engines. I didn't have to put a ton of money into rolling stock or storage racks. I had already done this over a thirty-five year period. BUT the professor had to recently buy rolling stock, build storage racks and rebuild a trailer to carry all of this stuff. It is costing him a bundle of money. All spent in a very short period of time. Yes, getting into any hobby cost big bucks to start. That's always a given.

As far as the "greedy" manufacturers, I disagree strongly. I was in manufacturing before retirement actually making dies and molds. Most folks outside of the industry don't realize that the cost of the average tooling to make our plastic engines and cars, can easily cost a quarter million dollars without blinking an eye! Add to this the cost of additional tooling for various engines and individual piece of rolling stock, this investment is in the many millions of dollars! For a train company to make this investment up front before a single dollar comes from a customer, you can see the company has to have a "strong heart" to even try this. Lots of risk involved with the manufacturer and they deserve to make their profit for taking that risk! That's the way the capitalist system works. If you think this is greedy, then go into business and invest your own millions and get what you want for the price you feel is just and fair! My RANT now over.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I think it boils down to these things:

The age of those who expanded this hobby is now too high for manufacturers to expect us to continue buying more trains and building or expanding our layouts.

Those younger than us who may have the funds to be potential customers have no personal history of riding on trains as part of their normal lives. Few people today work or have worked for the railroads or even have family members who work for the railroad.

This is an expensive hobby especially for someone who has a young family and a big mortgage and perhaps not a lot of job security. How many today grew up with a train running around the Christmas tree?

Add to this there are few hobby shops and department stores left anywhere for kids to go to and drool over trains running in displays in the store or in the front window.

Then too there is the surplus of eBay & estate sales accompanied by a shortage of replacement parts for long discontinued products

I don't think it is anyone's fault or likely to improve. I don't think there is enough profit to justify huge investments in new production and inventory and not enough FUN to get a lot of new people excited about the hobby.

I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'm just going to try to run the wheels off everything as long as I can. Perhaps if others see us excited & having fun they too will get excited & want to share in the fun. If we wear out our trains and reduce the surplus of used trains we might help increase the demand for new stuff.

Just maybe there came to be too many manufacturers making too much stuff and the market needed shortages before it could get profitable again.

It's definitely a buyer's market. That probably discourages investment.


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## Cmorais (Mar 11, 2013)

It has always been inexplicable to me why the manufacturers tried to make what would always be a small niche hobby even smaller by conceiving an ever growing number of scales. 

We had for a long time 1:32 for standard gauge and 1:24/1:22.5 for narrow gauge (already complex, even not considering the mainly British 16 mm/1:19, but mostly compatible). Then they added 1:29 and 1:20.3, under absolutely opposite arguments, as if with the objective of rendering most makes visually incompatible. 

Now everything is clear and very easy to newbies to enter the hobby and mix and match different makes, like in the much larger HO market.

Could it be considered a typical case of shooting your own foot?

José Morais
Headmaster of the Lapa Furada RR


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

> It has always been inexplicable to me why the manufacturers tried to make what would always be a small niche hobby even smaller by conceiving an ever growing number of scales.
> 
> We had for a long time 1:32 for standard gauge and 1:24/1:22.5 for narrow gauge (already complex, even not considering the mainly British 16 mm/1:19, but mostly compatible). Then they added 1:29 and 1:20.3, under absolutely opposite arguments, as if with the objective of rendering most makes visually incompatible.
> 
> ...


Except thats not at all what happened..
When 1/29 was invented, circa 1988, we didn't "already have 1/32"..
1/32 essentially didn't exist, not for US prototypes anyway, and not for plastic "affordable" models..all there was was very limited and expensive brass, and live steam. Which are both a totally different market than the hobby as we know it today.

For the "plastic, electric, affordable to the average person" Garden railroad hobby at that time, really all there was was LGB..nothing else.

Aristocraft created 1/29 scale so that the trains would visually match LGB in physical size..which was a very smart decision, because the fledgling Garden Railroad hobby at that time was essentially nothing but LGB..1/29 allowed people to run the new 1/29 rolling stock with the LGB trains they already owned..If Aristo had chosen 1/32 instead of 1/29, sales probably would have been much lower..because people would have to choose LGB _or_ 1/32, but not both..few people would want two different incompatible sets of trains..but with 1/29 people could choose LGB _and_ 1/29, and run them together..which is what happened, and is a large part of what caused to hobby to grow to what we know today..

Then! MTH came out with the first plastic "affordable" 1/32 scale for the hobby.._after_ 1/29 already existed..It could be easily argued that todays 1/32 plastic offerings exist only because 1/29 created the market for US prototype standard gauge trains in the first place...the 1/32 electric part of the hobby exists because 1/29 created the market first.

1/20.3 was also a smart decision, because narrow gauge modelers much prefer the correct scale to gauge ratio, which is why 1/20.3 easily took over from 1/22.5 and 1/24 for narrow gauge modeling..So that, like 1/29, was also a very smart idea.

1/20.3 and 1/29 are the two smartest decisions to have happened to the hobby..and both are responsible for growing the hobby significantly over the past 25 years..

Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Well said Scot. I couldn't agree more.

Chuck


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## Cmorais (Mar 11, 2013)

Hi Scot

I know the story. I was commenting on where we are now.

I wonder if people really prefer 1:20.3 over 1:22.5/1:24 - apparently Bachmann is not selling much of it and producing nothing new - except some 22.5 and Thomas - while Piko is launching new products, also in about 1:22.5. In the end people are concerned with detail, price and compatibility with what they already have and not so much about correct gauge. That's the reason 1:29 sold under Aristocraft and USA, notwithstanding the gauge inaccuracy.

I model mainly in narrow gauge and have never used the 1:20.3 Bachmann cars I have, because they are so large. I would have bought more, because I like their quality, if only they were a little more compatible. And, looking at the results, I think I'm not the one thinking like this.

Cheers

José Morais
Headmaster of the Lapa Furada RR


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

> Hi Scot
> 
> I know the story. I was commenting on where we are now.


wellll..no you didn't, and no you weren't, because you clearly said "We had for a long time 1:32 for standard gauge"...."Then they added 1:29"
so it was clear what you meant..and it needed correcting! 

I agree with you though about keeping to only one "scale" or "size"..and it is fragmented a lot, still..

1/24 and 1/22.3 did come first, for narrow gauge..
then 1/20.3 attempted to take over than niche..with much success..but there are still people who prefer the older 1/24 or 1/22.5, because the models are smaller..which makes perfect sense..

We have had a similar split in the Standard gauge side of the hobby..1/29 came first, for plastic US prototypes, then MTH attempted to go with 1/32, hoping people would be drawn to the correct scale/gauge ratio..1/29 has been mostly winning that battle, but 1/32 puts up a good fight..IMO I wish everyone would just go with 1/29 and drop 1/32 completely, since 1/29 has a larger share of the market, and WAY more products available..Bachmann and LGB have both dabbled in 1/29 somewhat, and Accucraft just plays both sides of the fence!  which is smart of them..but as a plastic standard gauge guy, I wish everyone would go with 1/29..

MTH has made the only Large scale F-unit with the proper nose profile, and it's a beauty..but I wont buy it _because_ its 1/32, and it matches nothing I own, its simply too small..same with the MTH Baldwin VO1000..again, I love the model! but again, I will never buy it, because I made the decision long ago to go with 1/29..and for the most part I have always been happy with that choice..

Maybe the recent economic woes will force the hobby to retreat and retrench..and might once and for all help standardize things better..if we only had two scales, one for narrow gauge, and one for standard gauge, that would obviously help the hobby a lot, even if the hobby is smaller overall in the future.

Scot


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

The parrot is dead!!! Get over it !!!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo's demise seems like a bad sign for the state of the hobby overall..but it seems that it should actually help the remaining manufacturers..less competition and all that..I'm hoping USA will have new product announcements soon..or at least, eventually! 
Scot


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## wombat457 (Jul 15, 2015)

Despite the various Scales, no matter what the reason for it is, I do agree that choosing a scale and sticking with that scale is a wise decision. That is not to say that a person shouldn't have all 3 or 4 or 5 scales, but keep them separate for appearance sake.

One thing I do find interesting is something that Scotty said, 1:29 sale opened up the market ,so to speak, and gave rise to other scales to follow. That being the case, why is there (apparently) so little for 1:29 scale compared to, say 1:24th scale?

One thing I know that would make things easier is if manufacturers identified the scale they produced their products in - and made that clear on the packaging of their products.

I know that I will try to stay with 1:29 scale for my diesel trains and 1:24 scale (I think - Piko) for my steamers. Anything more than that would get me in one **** of a mess!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Wombat, there is waaaaaaaaay more 1/29 available than 1/24..there is very little in 1/24..maybe HLW, but that's about it..a lot of stuff in the "1/24-ish" realm isn't exact scale..they are fluid..LGB is infamous for tweaking dimensions, on one model, compared to the prototype, the height might be 1/22.5, the width 1/24, and the length not even close to anything..very shortened..so there are models that are in that not quite exact 1/22.5-ish to 1/24-ish range..but there is very little actual 1/24..maybe the USA trains American series, and Aristo's old Delton line..which are both much smaller than their 1/29 lines..

My estimate of the state of the hobby over the past 15 years, having gotten every issue of Garden Railways over the past 15 years, and being on this forum for 15 years..

1/29 - 33%, one third of the Large scale hobby as a whole, including only electric/plastic models.
1/20.3 - another third.
1/32 - 10%
1/22.5 - 10%
1/24 - 10%

And realisticaly I would take those last two and combine them:
1/22.5-ish to 1/24-ish - 20%.

Rough estimate, and debatable..and Aristos demise will likely change things..but I bet its pretty close..

1/24 has pretty much died out, as far as new products..
The Bachmann "annie" big hauler and LGB keep 1/22.5 alive..
And MTH carries the torch for 1/32.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Is Piko actually 1/24? The new steamers? If so, that does change things in the 1/24 scale realm..Pikos expanded range is fairly new, the past 3 to 5 years..seems to be doing well! Which is great..I'm not sure its really 1/24 though..probably not an exact scale..probably more in that 4th "-ish" catagory. 


Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an observation, that I can't explain. I can pull a train of 1:24 adult beverage cars (beer) behind an Aristocraft Mallet and nothing looks out of place. That is a difference of about 20%, yet when I pull the same train behind a 1:20.3 engine it looks terrible. The difference in scale is about the same. Here is the beer train on the layout at Sun City Grand, Arizona.










Lets just enjoy our trains and hope the market improves. I don't need any new additions to my inventory, but if something new comes along. who knows?

Chuck


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Pikos stuff is a mixed bag, the engines in US steam are somewhere between 1/22 and 1/24, there modern Euro stuff looks to be aimed at the LGB market.

I'm surprised Bmann is holding off production but not shocked as LS is still stagnant. There is plenty of interest at shows but the start up costs are scaring people away. The still wide spread perception that you must start with 20' diameter curves and half an acre don't help. 

1/20 definitely eats up space when done with scale correctness is mind, that's a challenge for most peoples limited yard space today. That's another knock against.

I suspect that they may have overestimated the market pre recession and overproduced now they have to sit on product for a while.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Chuck, the difference is that the beer cars are larger-scale (1:24ish) models of narrow gauge (smaller) cars, thus they end up being the same physical size as a 1:29 model of a standard gauge car or locomotive, which goes back to how 1:29 came about in the first place. When you put the 1:24ish models of narrow gauge cars behind a 1:20 model of a narrow gauge loco, there's no size discrepancy between the prototypes, so the size discrepancy in the model stands out. 

As for Bachmann's future production, I did't interpret the thread on the Bachmann forum as being the end of 1:20.3 by any means. They seem to have a good sense of how fast stuff is moving from the factory through the warehouse to the stores to peoples' railroads, and you really can't produce faster than that rate of flow. When demand catches up, we'll see more supply again. In the mean time, there's product to purchase, so it's not like we're not getting anything, we're just not getting anything _new_. 

I think there are a few factors in play relative to 1:20.3. First, it's narrow gauge, which has always been a niche pursuit, even in the smaller scales. When there wasn't also 1:29 (or 1:32) standard gauge stuff also available, more folks bought the narrow gauge stuff because it was what was available. Now that folks have a choice of "standard" or "narrow," we're seeing the same trend in large scale that we see play out in the smaller scales.

Second, look at the nature of prototype narrow gauge railroads. They're typically very small affairs with just a few locomotives and a few dozen cars. Roads like the D&RGW (while wildly popular with respect to modeling) are very much the exception when it comes to the prototype world. Unless you're modeling such a railroad, your needs are met from a modeling standpoint with far fewer models than someone modeling a larger narrow gauge line. 

Last, there's the sheer physical size of the models. Storing them takes up a lot of space; surprisingly a lot more than the smaller large scale scales. One modeling in 1:20.3 is likely going to go on something of a buying frenzy at first, buying a small handful of locos and rolling stock to get the railroad running, but then the pace will likely drop precipitously as storage options run out, and the modeler builds his/her roster up to all that is "needed" for the railroad. 

Take my railroad for example. I only run one loco at a time, so I'm probably not going to be the "buy one of everything that comes out" kind of modeler. I've got to have a need to buy a locomotive. (Even if the "need" is "I like it.") Rolling stock is similar. My railroad is "full" with only 14 cars spread around on the various industries. I can probably go 17 or 18 cars during an ops session, but anything more than that, and I'm tripping over rolling stock that's just getting in the way. So, unless I have the space to store extra cases of rolling stock, I'm probably not going to be buying a lot more of that, either. 

I wouldn't buy flowers for the funeral just yet. On30 is suffering a similar slow-down of new product. I think it's part of a larger natural ebb and flow. 

Later,

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Maerklin actually make 1:32 scale USA diesels before 1:29 was even thought of.


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

The title of this thread, "Bachmann discontinues Spectrum cars" is NOT TRUE.

--and--

Bachmann did NOT say ". . . there would be no future production of Spectrum rolling stock."

Posting that title and comment is just a flat out lie.

It is also detrimental to our hobby.

For anyone actually interested in reading what was said by Bachmann, rather than just demonizing and sensationalizing, here is a link to the discussion:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,30542.0.html

The question asked was: *"Is there a possibility for re-runs of the flat cars, gondolas, and hoppers?"*

The answer from Bachmann's Yardmaster was:

*"It has taken a long time to sell through the production runs of these items. When number of Large Scale modelers begins to grow again Bachmann will consider running these items again."*

Some folks took issue with that post, and attacked Bachmann, essentially saying they didn't know their business and are screwing the customer. The conversation also drifted to asking for new issues of cars & locomotives, with one even asking why Spectrum cars didn't work well on 2' radius curves.

The first answer was restated several times, always the same: When they sell what is already in stock, they will make more.

Quote Bachmann Yardmaster:

*"The original poster was given a truthful answer. It was never said that these items would never be produced again - they certainly will be when the demand is there."*

Does anyone understand (or want to understand) how today's Chinese manufacturing operates? There is no assembly line working even one shift, with daily shipments to distributors, dealers and on to customers. Virtually all products are run in very large batches, put in a container and shipped. Through a combination of deliveries to stocking dealers and warehousing, the thousands of items are eventually sold. In the case in point, Bachmann is clear: Buy what is already in stock, and we will make more and / or different ones.

Production runs of many products (everything from coffeemakers to model trains) are not currently (as in this minute) being manufactured. So, regardless of the numbers in stock at various dealers, distributors, and manufacturer's warehouses, we could say that (insert manufacturer's name) are no longer producing (insert product name). That might be technically correct, but would not be truthful from the consumer's view point.

I guess it is much more interesting to post something that is attention getting rather than truthful, but I don't like folks who deliberately set out to damage our hobby.

I would politely suggest the OP here go back to yelling "FIRE" in crowded theaters.

Happy RRing.

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

wow jerry, a very harsh post imho.
I think we need to be civil to one another. And be aware that while words are important they aren't always chosen with supreme care, or, they are interpreted in a way one might not anticipate.

One post wont cause a stampede to the exit, I would think.

I know I can still get spectrum cars, 'cos I just ordered some.

while your interpretation of the site info is indeed, reasonable, 

I think too, the OP was reasonable in his post as well.
"will consider" to me is pretty ambiguous, (possibly clever PR speak in order not to alienate anyone), 

and thus the OP isn't the villain you make him out to be, imho.
more accurately, for the time, he has reported no more g scale spectrum stuff, which, right now, is accurate and the future production is speculation. In a way, OP is correct, production has stopped.

More to the larger issue, most of us are geezers or soon to be geezers, with a hobby about as promising as the buggy whip trade. We may all love it, but, we are in a minority in the bigger world of pass times and hobbies.
There isn't the volume to make our scale economically viable. N scale and HO, and possibly even O, are a different story. As for the entry fees, even when we were kids, it was common to build up a train layout, over years because, even then, it was expensive to have it all at once. Then as now, many will have to be content with and oval and starter set for a time.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve,

Thanks for your post. AND apparently I wasn't the only one that thought Jerry's post was a "little" harsh!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

This "is".. a hobby issue... an economy issue...

USAT is in same boat... taken on water..
There are few SD40-2 loco choices to buy..
There are few grain car choices to choose from..
Modern stuff has been built for us to enjoy...
.. yet existing stocks on some items are getting very low... 
.. hence hard to find... or gone..!
..this tends to make growing a railroad.. even over the normal spread out years plan.. as most hobbies are this way..
.... a very difficult adventure... hair pulling........... frustrating...
Getting parts... for repairs and building is even more difficult now..
.. coupled with price increases. . On stock allready existing....

Dirk.. it's not over yet!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I have a MTH Big Boy 4014 on order, guess orders are coming in pretty good for it.


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