# Go Big or Go Home



## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Well, as I'm sure is no surprise to anyone, Accucraft has done it. Today they announced a live steam version of the K-37! And it only took them offering every other K class loco with incorrect valve motion before they finally agreed to make the valve gear appear to operate properly on the K-37. 

For those of us who are aware of just how wide a K-36 is and its ability to clean switch stands off of layouts, this K-37 model is somewhat unique. As shown on the Acc. Website, the model is listed as 60+" wide. A typo I'm sure, but it does draw attention to the bulk of these beasts. As the ad points out, a single boiler fill can run the loco an hour, but why doesn't Accucraft go ahead and mount an axle pump on this monster and then it can hog the track all day -- that is if the owner can afford enough butane to do the job!

All joking aside - except about the valve gear - this will be one beautiful locomotive. If I didn't already have a gorgeous K-36, I'd be plotting my LSLAS (Live Steam Loco Acquisition Strategy) for one right now. Put this together with a couple of K-36s on the point of a loonnng rattler freight and Jim Stapleton would have to start reinforcing his track bench work. LOL!

Ross Schlabach


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm wondering why such a large jump in the price point. The butane K-28s and K-36s listed for the exact same amount - $4750. The K-37 is listing for $5995, nearly as much as the coal fired K-28. Maybe due to the low numbered run (50)?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

a] costs have risen significantly in China, especially wages 
b] possibly Bing is assuming that exchange rates will not be more favorable by the time these locos are delivered 
c] possibly Bing has an accountant who has convinced him that making a larger profit margin is a necessary condition to funding new projects 
d] possibly it is the short run. 

IMHO, THIS is the locomotive that should have been made as a coal fired version; large boiler, easily accessible flues with a large smoke box door.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Don't forget that Accucraft upped all prices a while back, and if I remember correctly that put the K-36 price at $5,395 for a while before they dropped it back. This seems to fall in line with other Recent Accucraft pricing decisions. The Big Boy is priced at $8,995 while the earlier announced Allegheny is only $7,000. I'd like to see somebody explain the logic of that disparity!! 

Ross Schlabach


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ross 

Pretty simple.... The price was set on the H-8 without considering the financial impact of NOT getting the loco to market in a timely fashion. Can you say Mason Bogie... Can you say EBT #12. Prices should be ESTIMATED if they are going to take more tha a year to produce it. 

BTW, I don't believe the delivery date of early 2013 on the K-37 for a millisecond.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Obviously, the price increase is due to the cross-porting tax...;-) I wish they stayed away from this unnecessary, artificial measure. What a shame! I bet it increases condensation on start up... hopefully, it will be possible to remove this nonsense cross-port thing. Best, Zubi


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I am a card carrying cheap skate so I probably shouldn't say anything, but even that price is pretty reasonable for the quality they produce. Imagine making one your self and getting paid for it. the HOURS and machinery you would need, not to mention skills! Even if you owned a commercial machine shop you couldn't make them for that!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 09 Oct 2012 08:28 AM 
Ross 

Pretty simple.... The price was set on the H-8 without considering the financial impact of NOT getting the loco to market in a timely fashion. Can you say Mason Bogie... 

The main issue with the Mason pricing was Fred released a price without building a prototype first. Also released 500.00 lower than MY opinion of 3k Retail and to include an axle pump not remove it. Then added it eventually later for an increased price anyway. 
Thats the reason I am now working directly with Cliff/Bing on the 0-4-2 Fairymead. Also pricing has not ben decided until we have the prototype. Which actually is looking like possibly November. 

Accucraft seems to be getting better in reguards to deliverly times and pricing. No longer have we seen a release until the prototype has been mostly prepared. I think its a step in the right direction.

Looks as though we may see a coal fired K37 and possible that a short run of the C25 will be coal also. Something that may happen sooner then later.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Zubi, Aster has successfully used the crossover porting to recreate correct valve motion and done so without creating major condensation issues and Accucraft can do so too. We should not be defending a substandard construction practice when there is a better solution. I have never heard any Aster owners complaining about their crossover porting, so I think this will work and you will have no need to try and remove it. 

Ross Schlabach


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Ross, Most Asters which I have seen, suffer from dreadful condensation on start up, usually leading to a fountain of water up the stack... It is a part of the fun at steam ups;-) I do not know what is the cause, but many have cross-porting. Could be another reason though, sloshing. The ones I own, are simple gas fired engines (such as C&S Mogul) which do not have cross-porting and they are capable of self start. Anyway, let's wait and see. In this case, I certainly prefer to see first, before believing. Best, Zubi


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ZUBI 

It's called "overfilling the boiler" and is NOT USUALLY related to condensation in the cylinders.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi - try starting with 1/2 filled boiler. My C&S never had a fountian. It usually clears pretty quickly. with minimal water. Ive seen the same for many of the Berks, Mikados, S2 and such, all have cross ported cylinders. It adds minimal more distance really for steam to travel then without maybe 1/2". Most dont start with a close to full boiler as these engines all have a hand and axle pump to maintain and add water. Ive always found that a 1/2 boiler fill gives you a better start and better steaming. 

Personally Ive yet to see the K37 to say that they haver actually changed the valve gear and porting. Just shows the rod in the low position in a photograph. Cliff is away until next week and should hear back from him then.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Jason,

The news release from Accucraft specifically mentions the valve gear: "This new Live Steam version is also cross ported so that valve gear is in prototypical position for forward and reverse." I'm not completely sure about it, but I think they already have made this change on some of their SG models -- certainly hope so.

Look forward to seeing you at Jim's this weekend.

Ross Schlabach


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jay, my C&S Mogul also works like a dream, self starts even with high water level. This could be due to the superheater and gas heating which work perfectly on this model. I do not have any experience with cross porting. None of my own engines has it. it seems to be an obstruction of the steam passage and completely unnecessary too. Maybe it will work great on the K-37. We will see. I just observed so many Asters which require substantial 'help' to clear the cylinders and spray the observers with water;-)... by accident or design, I do not know... Best, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi
"it seems to be an obstruction of the steam passage and completely unnecessary too." To be an obstruction of the steam passage ways would be present and effecting performance after the "clearing of the cylinders." The theory does not "hold water" otherwise if and when you "prime" an engine while running (full boiler) it would then be obstructed and stop running (no, but it will slow down a bit until the pump is bypassed to tender). Therefore it is the water level which is the factor getting water into the dry pipe thus excess to the cylinders (clearing no an obstruction of steam passage) thus "wet saturated steam/water" vs. "dry" steam. I have posted numerous videos with many Aster locomotive cross ported in which they "self start." Finally, if the problem of cross porting is the cause for locomotive to have the fountain effect of clearing the cylinders why is it that Accucraft engine do the same thing and most are not cross port? Answer, it has nothing to due with cross porting or obstruction. Secondly, to have the linkage properly executed according to position relative to forward or reverse it is "necessary" to cross port depending on the valve gear. BTW- one should fill the boiler to ensure proper water level relative to flues and crown sheet both on start up and running.

For example watch at the 42 second mark of the video the Aster K4 starting on its own:


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

All of the K27's I built had crossover ports and never suffered from condensation problems, but they all had working Draincocks which greatly improve starting when the cylinders have not been pre- heated before starting. 
David Bailey


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Accucrafts which I have (and that is a majority of what they released) are surprisingly good regarding self-start. Not as good as Roundhouses but very close. Overfilling the boiler - within reason- does not cause problems the way I start them - with the regulator fully open. Charles, I still think that cross-porting is an artificial 'fix'. If it is not going to deteriorate the performance of the upcoming K-37, that's fine with me. But I would prefer to see on this locomotive a straightforward, simple and proven slide valve without messing up. Or a piston valve as it is a model of a piston valve-geared prototype. That makes me want to observe how the new generation of Asters perform on start up - they now utilise piston valves. Best, Zubi


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 10 Oct 2012 09:04 PM 
Accucrafts which I have (and that is a majority of what they released) are surprisingly good regarding self-start. Not as good as Roundhouses but very close. Overfilling the boiler - within reason- does not cause problems the way I start them - with the regulator fully open. Charles, I still think that cross-porting is an artificial 'fix'. If it is not going to deteriorate the performance of the upcoming K-37, that's fine with me. But I would prefer to see on this locomotive a straightforward, simple and proven slide valve without messing up. Or a piston valve as it is a model of a piston valve-geared prototype. That makes me want to observe how the new generation of Asters perform on start up - they now utilise piston valves. Best, Zubi 
Zubi
You shall....bring back to the topic of Go Big or Go Home: Aster Challenger is both big and piston valve thereby when a thread is posted of the this big engine I am sure the observation will determine if:

Engines with large massive cylinders (taking a long time to heat up) that result in condensation (cross ported or not) result in the fountain effect and/or not self starting
Operators that overfill their boiler result in water/saturated steam in the cylinders/steam pipes thus the fountain effect (with or without cross porting) and/or not self starting.
Operators that overfill their boiler as they engage the pumping system during the run (prime) cause a fountain effect either (slide valve or piston valve) and/or not self starting.
Finally, whether one will see locomotives of various manufacturers (piston, slide valve, cross ported or not) big or small during steam ups having this effect and/or not self starting.

In closing another "big or go home" locomotive just release has be noted for massive fountains of water, oil on start up due to condensation in the huge cylinder blocks or over filled boiler: Accucraft T1. The solution does not lie in the premise of cross ports, D valve or piston valves but operational application of: clearing the cylinders (drain cocks), proper water level, cylinders up to temp and no water/saturated steam going to the cylinders relative to wet stack and/or not self starting

I am just wondering if the topic title "go big or go home" might indicate that go big will result in many having to keep the K37 ( or for all others) at home due to clearance issues with 60" width.... not able to run more than one locomotive on a layout at a time.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

If anyone was wondering the actualy width of the K37 is 6.25" Its the same width as the K36. Though the K28 is a mere 4.75" wide. So as long as you have 7" track centering at a minium it would run, on the straights. Not sure about the curves though. Maybe need an extra inch for the swing.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jay 

Remind us on Saturday and we can test it. My track centers are 7 inches. My guess is that anything under about 15 ft radius will require and extra half inch. IIRC, we can't get two K-27s past each other on Mike Moore's portable track with 10 ft 4 in radius and 7 in centers


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

It's too big and heavy for me. I already have a K36 I can hardly lift off the track. I ordered a C25.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I thought I knew all of the Walschaerts terminology by now but I guess I don't 
What is cross porting?


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill,
cross porting is only done in our small engines to fake piston valves when the loco is equipped with slide valves (inner vs. outer admission). The valve gear is reversed between the two and the cross porting corrects that, so the gear/Johnson bar looks right for forward/reverse. As you are currently dabbling with the Dockstader program, you can load the 2 versions of Walschaerts gear.
Regards


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I get particularly wanting prototypically accurate Walschaerts valve gear linkage. I get that. 
What I don't get is why not the same demand for prototypically accurate piston valves instead of slide valves needing cross porting to fix the problems imitating piston valves.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Henner 
I can see how all of that extra porting could cause problems 
I agree with Chris 
I don't understand why Accucraft wouldn't use piston valves, they work fine in the Ruby and similar engines and seem to last forever. 
They say that slide valves wear in and piston valves wear out but a properly designed and machined SS piston valve (which Accucraft has done before) should last a long time as there is no steam pressure forcing it down like on the "D" valve. 
From what I have read, the slide valves were more maintenance intensive than piston valves on the full size loco's 

BY THE WAY, DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "SUBSCRIBE TO" BUTTON ON THIS SITE?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By bille1906 on 13 Oct 2012 03:54 PM 

BY THE WAY, DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "SUBSCRIBE TO" BUTTON ON THIS SITE? 
See: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/4/aft/125908/afv/topic/Default.aspx
in Public Forum.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By bille1906 on 13 Oct 2012 03:54 PM 
Thanks Henner 
I can see how all of that extra porting could cause problems 
I agree with Chris 
I don't understand why Accucraft wouldn't use piston valves, they work fine in the Ruby and similar engines and seem to last forever. They don't because people want slide valves (and some want cross-porting as well). This hobby is not always based on rational thought, but is to some extent built on opinions - often obsolete or simply untrue (such as the deionized water, or radiant burner legends;-). The valve piston on K-series engines would have diameter larger than the main piston on the Ruby. It could be properly sealed with o-rings, and could improve steam delivery to the cylinders. Aster boldly introduced proper piston valves more than five years ago. And as far as I can see, they are not going back to slide valves on piston valve prototypes. Best, Zubi


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

You know, for $6K you can get a decent used ride on model (rail or tractor), or even full sized traction engine..... if you're patient enough.

You pays your moneys you makes your choices. But for that kind of scratch I think it should at least pull my fat butt around.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bille1906 on 13 Oct 2012 03:54 PM 
Thanks Henner 

I don't understand why Accucraft wouldn't use piston valves, they work fine in the Ruby and similar engines and seem to last forever. 
They say that slide valves wear in and piston valves wear out but a properly designed and machined SS piston valve (which Accucraft has done before) should last a long time as there is no steam pressure forcing it down like on the "D" valve. 
From what I have read, the slide valves were more maintenance intensive than piston valves on the full size loco's 



The main problem is that the design of the Accucraft piston valves leave no seal or bearing surface. They are a interference fit of Stainless and Brass. They do NOT last forever, as many of the rubys and such leak badly at the valves causing blow by and leaks out the back of the valve. To fix that 2 orings need to be installed so the valve is sealed by the Orings not relying on oil to make a seal. Maybe is the brass they use maybe its the tolerance Im not sure. I can attest to adding the orings on a few engines and it is a world of difference. If you follow some of the newer Asters they have piston valves and they are much more complex then a simple spool, they are properly sealed and do not ride metal on metal. 
The D valve had a greater chance of the oil getting on the valve face, If you look at a piston valve on a Accucraft you will notice that typically the valve is very dry of oil. I typically over oil the valve with steam oil to help extend the life. After all that is the reason you can buy replacement valve assemblys as they wear out.



On another note, looks like next year we will have a full K roster in steam at Jims meet. Question is will it be Fall or the Spring/Summer


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Zubi 
I think that a 5mm spool valve with a .050 deep groove and oval ports 1/16" x 1/8" would have a similar cross section to a 3/32" or dual 1/16" cylinder ports 

Jason 
I have tried o-rings on piston valves before and found that they get cut by the edge of the port. Perhaps Rulan or PTFE valves could be made but it would need to be perfectly fit. Perhaps a bronze valve body with a SS piston is the way to go or better yet a bronze sleeve. 
Your thoughts?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Bronze would be the way to go, really brass and bronze leaving out the SS. I have not had problems with cuttign the Orings. maybe the fit was too tight? I use a 5%-8% conpression. As to the sleeve,m a retrofit on the Accucraft would be de soldering the piping and remachining, at that point just as easy to make a new valve plate. The desoldering process leaves a good chance you will warp the plate anyway. Ill be fitting orings on a C21 shortly along with boring out the cylinders to 5/8" from the 1/2". Same plans for my Mogul too.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Jason 
I wasn't real clear, I am thinking along the lines of scratch building the valves so any design will work. Just wanted to know what your thinking is on the best way to do it


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 09 Oct 2012 08:11 PM 
Ross, Most Asters which I have seen, suffer from dreadful condensation on start up, usually leading to a fountain of water up the stack... It is a part of the fun at steam ups;-) I do not know what is the cause, but many have cross-porting. Could be another reason though, sloshing. The ones I own, are simple gas fired engines (such as C&S Mogul) which do not have cross-porting and they are capable of self start. Anyway, let's wait and see. In this case, I certainly prefer to see first, before believing. Best, Zubi 

I think that is a bit of a generalization. The Aster Berkshire is a superb self starter and I rarely need to use the cylinder drains. The SNCF 232U1 is such a good self starter that I've had it run away from me when I didn't realize the throttle was slightly cracked open. Neither of these seem to push much water up the stack. On the other hand, my new Accucraft K1 will drench anyone in a considerable radius with an oil/water mixture as you clear the cylinders. I have no idea whether any of these are cross ported - I leave that mystery to others








Robert


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