# Colorado Railroads



## bhewitt452 (Jan 4, 2008)

My wife and I will be traveling to the Denver/Breckinridge Colorado area in September and are trying to decide which railroads to visit. We will have limited
time and would like to visit the Cumbres & Toltec and/or the Durango and Silverton but doubt we could do both. Any opinions on which one is better? Also are there any garden railways to visit?
Thanks,
Bill and Liana Hewitt


----------



## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Both railroads are A+ attractions. If you drive down to Durango by way of Ouray and Silverton the scenery is fantastic. You can't lose.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The wife and I rode the Durango/Silverton a couple years ago and thought it was great. Haven't had a chance to ride the Cumbres & Toltec but I've heard it's great also. 

Take note, many of the roads in Colorado have no guard rails. 










You have to really pay attention to the road and not the scenery, else you might become the scenery. 

Randy


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I can almost guarantee that your wife will like Durango best because of the many small shops and great restaurants. I haven't been back there for some years now but we liked to stay at the General Palmer House Hotel right in town and walking distance to the train depot because it had its own parking lot. The ever popular Strater Hotel just up the street is larger but there was only on street parking. Both are Victorian style with the Palmer more sedate and the Strater more bawdy. 

Both railroads are "musts" though if you really like narrow gauge railroading. Cumbres & Toltec is maintained closer to the way it actually was when the D&RGW ran it but the D&S has that really neat cliffside trackage and is a great ride too. It's not really that great a distance between the two lines and I would try and plan on both if at all possible. The few hours drive between the two is a lot less than the distance from Denver to either one.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm doing a Colorado train vacation the week before the NGRC...so I've been researching this a bunch. Denver/Breckenridge to either Durango or Chama...is...plainly put...A VERY TOUGH DRIVE...8 hours plus and over 10,000 ft passes on two lane roads. Count on it taking a full day of driving...each way. Alternatively, you can fly from Denver to Durango and back on United Airlines. Chama is 2 hours from Durango...but the train leaves Chama at 10AM...so get up early.


In the Denver/Breckenridge area, there are two RRs to ride...one at Georgetown, CO (which you'll pass as you drive to Breckenridge from Denver) and the other in Leadville...about 2 hours south from Breckenridge. Neither are anywhere near as fantastic as either the D&SNGRR or the C&TS.


EXCEPT...you said September. Depending on when in September, you could be looking at snow in the mountains by then...especially in those 10,000 passes. You might even have snow issues getting up to Leadville...it's at 10,000 ft too.


DO NOT miss the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden...that's on the way from Denver to Breckenridge too. Easily one of the five best RR museums in the US.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The way the weather has been expect snow any time in the Colo MT Later RJD


----------



## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Having rode (ridden?) the Snow Train on the D&S and a photo freight on the C&T, I'd choose the latter because they give you a lot more freedom to wander around the Chama yard and such and check things out, whereas in Durango, ya gotta stay behind the ropes, so to speak. But as Mike says, both ralroads are spectacular rides and I still want to do the entire Durango to Silverton route someday. The Georgetown Loop didn't kock my socks off (too short a ride). But the Colorado Railroad Museum is a must see. As for driving, everything takes longer than it looks on a map.


----------



## timhum (Jan 2, 2008)

Both journeys are superb, take the parlour car on each to really make an occaision of it. Stay in Durango, we've used the Strater twice, very good with a lively bar and it does now have its own parking lot. The drive between the two railroads is an easy 2 hours particularly early morning when you will need to travel to catch the train on the C&T. The drive down to Durango from northern Colorado is fantastic with absolutely brilliant scenery. Allow a decent amount of time for the journey as suggested, none of the roads are very scary but don't try to hurry, you will want to enjoy the views whilst overtaking isn't that easy on some stretches. Colorado railroad museum should not be missed either with a stop on the way south to see the C16 268, rolling stock and buildings etc in Gunnisson at the Pioneer museum being a great diversion. Further along the road to Montrose before heading down to Durango there is a further museum run by the National Parks at Cimmaron. Here you will find another C16 278, black this time ,posed on a trestle together with a small railroad exhibit including a loading ramp for stock cars. 

Have a great time as we have done!

Tim


----------



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

On Tuesday after my flight arrives in Denver (early plus gain time due to 2 timezone changes), My family and I are driving up I-70 and down to 550 to Durango through the million dollar highway on Tuesday July 7th. Ride the Durango and Silverton in the Silver Vista Car the entire next day (up and back), then slowly drive back to Denver the next day or 2 (havent made my decision on what places to visit on the way back, need some help), Go see the Big Boy x4005 in the forney museum I think on Thursday or Friday, The colorado railroad musem on Friday (hope there running the steam engines on Friday, I know theres a steam up on Saturday), and Saturday going to the NGRRC convention, sunday flying back. Never been to this part of the country (except for a boyscout trip to Philmont http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philmont_Scout_Ranch just southeast of Chama). Should be a great experience! 

So what roads/places should I see on the way back from Durango? on Wednesday/Thursday (maybe)?


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew 

If you like driving through the mountains, the road from Durango to Silverton and then over to Ouray is spectacular. Also, there is a gold mine above Silverton you can go in for $$ and ghost towns. Eat at Handle Bars in Silverton. Straight out of the 1800s 

Randy


----------



## timhum (Jan 2, 2008)

I would agree with Randy and take the road through Silverton and on to Ouray. Then as per my previous post I suggest a brief stop at Cimmaron to see C16 278 and then a longer break at the Pioneer Museum in Gunnison to see C16 268 plus loads of other railway artifacts, cars and buildings, together with the remainer of the museum. You can then take the roads over to Denver, perhaps approaching via Golden and call in at the Colorado railway Museum before arriving in Denver.

Have a great trip, I'm very envious!

Tim


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Both the D&S and the C&T are spectacular in their individual ways. If you ride the C&T only one way (bus return to origin), I suggest west (Chama) to east (Antonito) to see and hear the effect of the grades. Also, you can ride the open platforms of the coaches all you want--definitely not so on the D&S. 

The Georgetown Loop RR is dismissed by some as too short a ride. However, it is convenient to Denver and with its original sharp curves and steep grades, it is one of my favorite authentic rides. 

For all of the major Colorado lines, reservations are suggested. And yes, the highways in the mountains can be interesting, to say the least! 

Larry


----------



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Some google streetview links (neat stuff) Can take a few secs to load

Colorado Railroad museum 
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=colorado+railroad+museum&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.68309,135.263672&ie=UTF8&ll=39.770993,-105.192048&spn=0,359.995872&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.77096,-105.192196&panoid=z4OMEW2ZFfQ-OktWIZdgOg&cbp=12,329.8,,0,5 

Looking into the D&S yard (cant see too much) 
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=colorado+railroad+museum&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.68309,135.263672&ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=37.270366,-107.882832&panoid=BL8J6ggit0DYHQsHeCx1SA&cbp=12,171.48,,0,5&ll=37.270343,-107.882738&spn=0,359.991744&z=18 

I pretty sure I can figure it out more lol


----------



## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Bill

Others have given their opinions of the D & S and the C &T but Id like to offer some other advice. 

I lived for many years in Wyoming and Colorado, remember at 8,000' you are through approximately 1/2 of the Earth's atmosphere and sunburn can be a real issue. Take and use lots of sunscreen and/or if you are like me (follically challenged, a good hat). Also the air is thinner and physical extertion can casue one to tire quite easily. Also alcohol can have an amplified effect at this elevation. 

In September you may encounter snow. not a deep blizzard but enough cooler/colder weather to warrant a heavier jacket. Better still layer the outwear such that if you need them for warmth you have two layers to cut the cold but if the sun is out and you need to shed some of the clothing you can remove the outer layer and still have the inner layer for protection.

Enjoy your trip.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 06/23/2009 3:50 PM
Andrew 

If you like driving through the mountains, the road from Durango to Silverton and then over to Ouray is spectacular. Also, there is a gold mine above Silverton you can go in for $$ and ghost towns. Eat at Handle Bars in Silverton. Straight out of the 1800s 

Randy

Spectacular is right...but HIGH HIGH HIGH...over 11,000'...and a LONG time driving near10,000'. This is the highest road you can take to get to Durango. Expect snow in September...lots of it.

I'm thinking of taking a tank of oxygen with me in the car. Anybody know where you can get these?


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike 

Scotch & Ox? That sounds like a mixed drink I've not heard of before. 

Mike, try a medical supply house for bottled Oxygen

Randy


----------



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard theres an oxygen bar on top of Pikes Peak lol (over 14,000 ft)


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 06/24/2009 1:44 PM
Mike 

Scotch & Ox? That sounds like a mixed drink I've not heard of before. 

Mike, try a medical supply house for bottled Oxygen

Randy 


Won't be much scotch on this trip. Alcohol and high altitudes for flat landers don't mix well I've read. Lots of water though...1 oz of water per day for every two pounds you weigh is the recommended amount. As for the Oxygen, found a place that rents the tanks in Durango...cept they need a prescription...which I'm in the middle of trying to get my doctor to prescribe. I have to go see him this morning. What a PITA.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 06/25/2009 11:21 AM
Posted By rlvette on 06/24/2009 1:44 PM
Mike 

Scotch & Ox? That sounds like a mixed drink I've not heard of before. 

Mike, try a medical supply house for bottled Oxygen

Randy 


Won't be much scotch on this trip. Alcohol and high altitudes for flat landers don't mix well I've read. Lots of water though...1 oz of water per day for every two pounds you weigh is the recommended amount. As for the Oxygen, found a place that rents the tanks in Durango...cept they need a prescription...which I'm in the middle of trying to get my doctor to prescribe. I have to go see him this morning. What a PITA.


GOOD GRAVY!!!! I'D DROWN!


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

What the heck - I'll chime in here, too.

I've ridden both, albeit in 1991, and driven all the roads mentioned above. We rode D&S round-trip one day, then C&T the next, one way Chama to Antonito with shuttle return. My opinions:


1. D&S has great scenery, more dramatic due to the canyon, but more of a touristy feel to it - loudspeakers in the cars, very limited on where you can be, that sort of thing. Fortunately (for me), they didn't have a staged robbery.


2. C&T feels more authentic, more laid back, more remote, but not as dramatic. 2nd half of ride - across the sagebrush plain toward Antonito - was (dare I say it on train forum?) boring. I've seen enough sagebrush, I grew up around it, I don't need to pay to see it







Plus, that makes a long shuttle trip back to Chama.


My recommendation, given that you said you will only have time for one ride, is to take the half trip from Chama (if the C&T still offers it) to the summit, have lunch, then take the westbound train back to Chama. Then drive up to Durango, Silverton and Ouray to check out all the cool old buildings and wow-factor scenery, then on to Grand Junction and I-70 back to Denver. Or go east from Montrose to Salida and see the Black Canyon of the Gunnison. We've stayed overnight in an old hotel in Silverton that was pretty cool.


----------



## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, you offer some sage advice. However, I question the "long shuttle trip back to Chama." My understanding is the distance is only 60 miles or so, and since it's a straight shot back from Antonito to Chama--on the C&T's own bus--I can't imagine it taking more than an hour. 

But then I never rode the bus because when I took a Fall photo freight on the line, I booked round trip, staying overnight in Antonito. And because it was a photo freight with stops every few miles, one didn't have time to get bored, even in the flatlands.


----------



## Rich Muth (Jan 2, 2008)

About the C&TS trip! The Motor Coach trip is 49 miles. The RR takes 64 miles to traverse the same distance between Chama and Antonito. The coach trip takes about an hour and five minutes. For a good part of it's trip it's in a different river valley (the Conejos River) than the train is.

As a Docent on the C&TS I've ridden it over 300 times. If anyone wants to discuss the trip please back channel me and I'll be glad to answer any questions you might have!

Rich Muth


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Got the O2 prescription today after battling through the Kaiser bureaucracy. Least I'll have it if I need it. I learned on my last trip to Colorado that I do NOT like altitude sickness.


----------



## bhewitt452 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the great info!!!
One last question...
Is it common to get altitude sickness on the Durango and Silverton train trip?
Never been there and don't want to spend 9 hrs sick on the train.


----------



## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bhewitt452 on 06/28/2009 6:41 AM
Thanks to everyone for the great info!!!
One last question...
Is it common to get altitude sickness on the Durango and Silverton train trip?
Never been there and don't want to spend 9 hrs sick on the train.




It depends on your physical condition mostly. I have been to Durango many times and even driven over Cumbres Pass at 10,000 feet. I have never gotten ill or even whoozy. Obviously if you are under heavy physical exertion such as climbing, long hikes or, heaven forbid, working and come from a sea level environment the altitude could have an affect on you. Aside from that age, medication or a heart condition could be a factor. Too, some people just aren't tolerant of higher altitudes but if you are of reasonable health, don't exert yourself too much and don't have a history of falling ill from these things you probably don't have anything to worry about.


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a breathing problem, but have never been affected while on the D&S or the C&T. Pike's Peak was a different matter--rode the train and felt light-headed by the time we reached the top. Just took it very easy while up there, and felt fine when back at the bottom. Go for it! 

Larry


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bhewitt452 on 06/28/2009 6:41 AM
Thanks to everyone for the great info!!!
One last question...
Is it common to get altitude sickness on the Durango and Silverton train trip?
Never been there and don't want to spend 9 hrs sick on the train.



Sick is a relative term. Discomfort may be more appropriate. I am apparently one of those that are sensitive to altitudes over 8000'. I can fly in airliners with no issues...but they're set for 7000' altitude. This is why I pushed to get the O2 prescription. Last time we were in Colorado (for a wedding), we stayed in Georgetown (8000')...and had non-stop headaches...24/7. I never have headaches. The wife went to the wedding, which was at 11,000 feet, and got very light headed...and still had to drive over an hour back to Georgetown. Fortunately, a few seconds of breathing pure O2 fixed that...but she had a headache the whole time she was up that high (till the O2 dose) and a good part of next day.


In talking with the folks that run the B&B we're staying at in Chama, she told me that a lot of folks get headaches as it takes up to 6 months for your body to acclimate to even 8000'. Drinking LOTS of water reduces the headache discomfort, and the O2 helps even more. There are much more serious side effects for altitude sickness though...especially related to your lungs getting too dry and getting inflamed...which is not good.


As for the train rides...both go up to 9500ish feet...and I'm NOT lugging any oxygen bottle on those trips. My concerns were oriented toward driving over passes...not relaxing in a coach or parlor car.


----------

