# MTH sound/smoke flywheel sensor alternative ?



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys:

The Mike's Train House sound and smoke electonics requires a flywheel on which to mount the black and white lined tape for the sensor to provide information to the board electronics for the synchronised chuff and laboured chuff.
There is a gentleman on this website who has installed MTH electronics on many hobbyists' locos. Please correct my above statement as required.

Question:

*Is it possible to substitute the flywheel mounted black and white tape with a *
*black and white line pattern circle mounted on the inside rim surface on one of the locomotive drivers ?*

The MTH sensor would be relocated from the flywheel to read the inside surface of one locomotive driver inside tyre surface.
Is the MTH sensor infared?
Would this work?

If so, maybe a driver tyre decal pattern could be created to install the MTH electronics in the Bachmann 4-6-0 Anniverary and Bachmann 4-4-0 , etc.


Thank you
Norman


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman, here is a link to rayman4449's website;

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/


He is the one on here that does the MTH conversions on non-MTH trains. he has 2 Bachmann 4-6-0's he ahs converted, His and mine . These are the only 2 Bachmann ten wheelers that have been done that we know of. He replaces the stock motor with a motor with a flywheel on it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ignoring the problems of ambient light getting to the drivers and interfering with the optical sensor (probably can be overcome), 

and Ignoring the problems of drivers on many locos often have a lot of sideways play to handle our curves (probably can be overcome) 

you are down to the the fact that since the tachometer is normally reading motor rpm, and now it's on a driver, it could be picking up data at maybe 30 times slower, so the MTH unit's "gear ratio adjustment" may not tolerate this... I believe we need Chuck or Ray to come on this. 

The other thing which cannot be overcome is the slower data rate definitely means slower updates on motor speed to the MTH unit, which will have some impact on performance and the ability to start and stop slowly. Again, we need Chuck or Ray to say if they have experience with this. 

It's a nice system, but I think in this case you should really entertain getting a flywheel on the motor. Overcoming all the other problems may be more work and cost than the flywheel. 

Regards, Greg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman - just get a new motor with a flywheel. Its a vast improvement anyway, and makes the install much easier. There is no need to recreate the wheel here. 

There are different sizes of tach tape, so you will be able to find one that works. The senor would be able to adjust for the slower speed of the drivers, but again, is that really an improvement?


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman, 

I just sent Ray an email for this post, hopefully he will reply to it. He has done extensive research and development on MTH conversions of non MTH engines. 

Cliff


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Norman,

The short answer is unfortunately no, it won't work. Because of the way our model trains are geared the motor armature completes many more revolutions per one revolution of the engine driver/wheel the engine would run way too fast even at 1 SMPH and function more like there was no optical reader installed at all. If would function right, ambient light would not be an issue.

I agree with John and Cliff, replacing the motor is going to be your only option.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Raymond, 

What is the "tolerance" for the "gear ratio" between the motor and the drivers? (I guess it really is also related to driver diameter too). 

I'd be interested in knowing... there obviously is some "adjustment" possible. 

Regards, Greg


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Raymond: 

Does the Lionel O gauge system also use a flywheel on the motor shaft? 
If not, maybe I could use the Lionel smoke and sound system. 

Norman


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Norman,


I don't believe the Lionel system uses an optical reader as I'm pretty certain MTH has a patent on it, but you could certainly give it a try. I understand the Lionel Railsounds sounds excellent.
What is your overall goal? Good sync'd smoke output? 

Even in the O gauge world I have heard people make statements that MTH is the King of smoke so I don't know how the Lionel board + smoke unit would compare or if it would have the same volume & thicknesss.. and if you used an MTH smoke unit would the Lionel board be able to handle the number / total amperage draw of the MTH smoke unit elements? (may have to reduce the number) Remember too that Lionel basically doesn't have G scale line so you won't be able to get a G scale smoke unit from them you would have to go to MTH. You would either have to use an O gauge smoke unit (tiny) or use another G scale smoke unit (not that much bigger). Now that said I have seen some MTH O gauge smoke units really pump some smoke out so you might be happy with one. Another question is how does Lionel trigger their smoke chuffing? If it's not through an optical or mechanical means you will have issues with correctly calibrating it to 4 chuffs per rev or close to it. Maybe that can be adjusted some with the TMCC remote as can be done with the MTH DCS remote... I don't know.

One issue to be aware of is signaling, I have heard that the Lionel system really wasn't originally designed for larger layouts and thus control of the engine could be an absolute nightmare for us in Largescale. A friend of mine that has a big O gauge layout with like 900 engines has told me he basically does not / cannot run the Lionel engines on his layout under TMCC control. Based on what I've heard on that issue alone I personally would be hesitant to go with TMCC. But I would do your own reading on this, there may be some TMCC users with different experiences.

Also be aware that while MTH DCS can operate under AC or DC power(and functions the same), TMCC is AC only. 

I've seen the new TMCC remote and it's really slick. (MTH's new TIU and Remote is due out in a year and I would expect it to be just as nice. (has to be to compete))

I don't have any info on price or availabilty of the TMCC upgrade kits. Seems to me that I heard in order to change sound files you have to swap chips as opposed to doing a download from a PC as we do with DCS. (Chuck, any input there?) I could be wrong on that, but I would do some research before buying a TMCC upgrade kit, assuming they are even available so you know what you're getting into. 

I hope this helps some. 


Raymond


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