# How to make a cuffer quiter



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Hi all,

while at cabin fever, my engine was waay to loud- my right ear still rings from walking along beside it for an hour. and i know it was probably annoying to others.

so that brings me to the question- how do i make it quieter? i think it also has too sharp of a chuff.- i just want to make it slighty more muffled . Ryan suggested the FX control.


nate


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with you Nate, one reason I haven't put chuffers in mine yet. I need to be around one with FX control before I spend the $$ for one. My hearing is very sensitive due to sensory intergration issues from autism. My friends Accucraft Emma and the Lady Anne I built had cuffers and it was painfull to run them for very long. Thankfuly both ran to where I could step back a slight distance and watch. The Chuff is to high pitched for my ears. I like the effect though. The FX sounds like the right option, you can get a better steam plume and reduce the sound some. Mike


----------



## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

A friend of mine drilled a hole using a #73 (0.024") drill bit and it softened the chuff significantly. He tells me it is the same size used in the Fx chuffer. Be sure to drill the hole off center to prevent the condensate from shooting straight up and out of the stack.
Or you could buy the Fx and have adjustability if you want it.


----------



## rexcadral (Jan 20, 2016)

Tom Bowdler said:


> A friend of mine drilled a hole using a #73 (0.024") drill bit and it softened the chuff significantly. He tells me it is the same size used in the Fx chuffer. Be sure to drill the hole off center to prevent the condensate from shooting straight up and out of the stack.
> Or you could buy the Fx and have adjustability if you want it.


Seconded. I think I used a #60 bit (These are very very tiny bits, be careful Nate, use a drill press and a drill press vice. you will break the bit if you just go for it with a handheld.) Not only does it soften the noise just a little bit, but your steam plumes will get markedly better. 

I drilled mine dead center, and yes, there's a hot mess blasting out the top on startup, but if you're RC it's no big deal. I also suspect that the dead-center gives me a stronger plume, since it's a straight shot through the whole assembly.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> how do i make it quieter?


Nate,
There are quite a few hints and tips on Chris Bird's website (he's the guy who sells Chuffers.) http://www.summerlands-chuffer.co.uk/my-projects/4577373407

My understanding is that the location of the chuffer in the stack is what controls the volume. My EBT #12 became quite noisy after I fitted the chuffer, but I recently moved the chuffer lower so it is almost in the smokebox, not in the stack.
Of course, the Chuffer in #12 is an 'adjustable' one, a push fit on the copper blast pipe. Yours is probably a fixed length.

My suggestion would be to email Chris - the UK guys have lots of experience with chuffers and RH locos - and get his advice. If it is to shorten the pipe, this can be done with a piece of copper tube over the outside of the current pipe, and some silver solder. I strongly advise getting an expert to solder it.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> Hi all,
> 
> while at cabin fever, my engine was waay to loud- my right ear still rings from walking along beside it for an hour. and i know it was probably annoying to others.
> 
> ...


Hey Nate,

Nothing is "wrong" with your engine OR the chuffer . IIRC you said your engine was "working" quite a bit because of the large consist you were pulling. Correct? Therefore in THIS old steamers opinion, your loco had a good "bark" to it and was just amplified by the chuffer. You also say the sound was "sharp"........that sounds like a "square" engine to me AND that's what it should sound like. Let the folks around the track be "annoyed"........if they didn't like the sounds of steam engines running, then maybe they need another hobby, like.........Bird watching!


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Gary, the chuff cut through the air it was that sharp- just a little too sharp for a tiny narrow gauge prairie.
She was pulling a heavy train, which made it very loud( the building where our steam ingines are is rather loud (big cranes, trucks, construction equipment, ect. and you could hear my engine from anywhere in that building- it was that loud.

once or twice i ran out of gas becuase i didnt hear the burner go out- due to the loud chuffing.oops


nate


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> Gary, the chuff cut through the air it was that sharp- just a little too sharp for a tiny narrow gauge prairie.
> She was pulling a heavy train, which made it very loud( the building where our steam ingines are is rather loud (big cranes, trucks, construction equipment, ect. and you could hear my engine from anywhere in that building- it was that loud.
> 
> once or twice i ran out of gas becuase i didnt hear the burner go out- due to the loud chuffing.oops
> ...


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

art, i like it outside, but inside it is too loud.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> art, i like it outside, but inside it is too loud.


Nate,

Like I said previously.........live with it LOUD inside! AND continue to annoy the rest of the steam folks. That's what I would do. Maybe the "East Coast" guys are more "sensitive" . Out here, we love that sound . Don't change the chuffer to please "some folks". You will be running outside the majority of the time anyway. Follow Art's advice. He "knows" that engine. 

Also a little friendly advice........I saw you running that engine in the videos.......you said the burner went out twice and you didn't hear........you need to concentrate on the RUNNING of your engine, not taking your own videos or "multi-tasking". This is what we do when we operate our 1/8th scale and larger steam locomotives here at LALS. It is a FULL TIME job running these machines. When we steam up our 3-3/4 inch scale Porter or when we steamed up our 1-1/2" scale mogul (now sold), we NEVER had conversations in the steaming bay (we had some that would want to BS and ask questions during the process and we would very politely ask them to "Shut the **** up, we're trying to concentrate here"!). They took the hint and came back later when things were less hectic.


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

I like the sound too- just to clarify. -however, i know some do not.

OK then the final verdict is :



The Chuffer is staying! maybe i will put a tiny hole in top to make it not as loud, but maybe not. 


Time(and my ears) will tell if it is modified.


----------



## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I would just put the newer chuffer with the FX controller. I have one and really makes a difference in the sound.


----------



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

snowshoe said:


> I would just put the newer chuffer with the FX controller. I have one and really makes a difference in the sound.


Okay, I'll bite. What is an fx controller?


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary Armitstead said:


> Nate,
> 
> Like I said previously.........live with it LOUD inside! AND continue to annoy the rest of the steam folks. That's what I would do. Maybe the "East Coast" guys are more "sensitive" . Out here, we love that sound . Don't change the chuffer to please "some folks". You will be running outside the majority of the time anyway. Follow Art's advice. He "knows" that engine.
> 
> Also a little friendly advice........I saw you running that engine in the videos.......you said the burner went out twice and you didn't hear........you need to concentrate on the RUNNING of your engine, not taking your own videos or "multi-tasking". This is what we do when we operate our 1/8th scale and larger steam locomotives here at LALS. It is a FULL TIME job running these machines. When we steam up our 3-3/4 inch scale Porter or when we steamed up our 1-1/2" scale mogul (now sold), we NEVER had conversations in the steaming bay (we had some that would want to BS and ask questions during the process and we would very politely ask them to "Shut the **** up, we're trying to concentrate here"!). They took the hint and came back later when things were less hectic.


Gary;
A little chuff goes a long way. 

You know steaming a gas fired locomotive requires listening to the sound it's making as all sorts of indicators. A loud accessory chuffer can make that from irritating to downright impossible, literally. That includes when the loud chuffer is rolling by the steam up bay and 20-30+ ft across a track, indoors and or outdoors.

#1 is the burner noise. A number of times a chuffer has been so loud I could not hear the flame popped back to the burner, or both burners were lit, or how high the flame was. We are dependant on the sound of the the burner whether raising steam in the steamup bay or while running. We listen to the burner while running to tell if the burner's fire is out or only one of two burners is lit or the burner is turned up too high. Not to mention noise from things like wheels squealing or the clatter from a derailed wheel. One of the reasons I walk with my loco running besides monitoring things but because I too like to hear my locomotive chuff, the linkage and the rolling wheels on the rails of my train. It's a drag when one of those loud chuffers drowns out all of that.

The smokebox of the locomotive also affects the locomotive's native sound, or with an accessory chuffer, which need to be taken into consideration. Chris Bird recognized this and is why he began offering a chuffer sound attenuator.

Thank you, that's my soapbox.


Nate;
I would greatly appreciate anyone with a accessory chuffer listen to your locomotive as you are standing in one place as it goes around the track. Ask yourself, could you or someone else here the burner?

Thanks
Chris


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> Gary;
> A little chuff goes a long way.
> 
> You know steaming a gas fired locomotive requires listening the sound it's making as all sorts of indicators. A loud accessory chuffer can make that from irritating to downright impossible, literally. That includes when the loud chuffer is rolling by the steam up bay and 20-30+ ft across a track, indoors and outdoors.
> ...


when i am running around the track with a heavy train, all i hear is the clattering of wheels and chuffing i cant hear the burner even if it is really loud.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

And with Roundhouse's FG burner system, working rate is almost silent while standing still. Much over that will have the safety lifted and be wasting gas and steam. I sure trip to the foreman's office after the run with cap in hand to explain ones self. LOL! I agree that as built, most Roundhouse of older vintage have little to no chuff unless pulling a massive load. The current range list an "exhaust enhancer" as part of the factory options. Is this thier attempt at something similar to the chuffer pipes sold aftermarket? Has to be more than just the organ slot with the crimped end of the tube that my Argyll has. That just keeps most of the crap from coming up the chimney. You cannot scale down the thumping "bark" of a real 1:1 engine. The chuff pipe give us an audible high pitched chuff that gets even louder under a load. You cant give these little beasts the thump you feel thru your body when 1:1 scale steamer passes with a load on the drawbar. You might see if you can lower the chuffer down into the smoke box further, or try the offset hole in the top. With a pin vise, you can hand drill with those size bits, but they are extremely fragile. Not sure how thick the top plate of the chuff pipe is. You might join one of the more UK based forums. Either G scale central or Garden Railway Forum. Chris Bird is a member of both and could advise how to tone down the pipe a touch. But changing to the FX control set up, if offered for that model, is probably the best bet or no chuff pipe/try your hand at making your own from brass tubing that help the sound, but not as loud. Mike


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Funny, after all the work people go to make the chuffs louder in their locos.

Yeah, other than a few unusual indoor meets, isn't most running outside? You don't run steam inside your house surely?

(yeah I know, don't call me Shirley)

greg


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I run live steam indoors, why not? My house is older and if the fumes get to much, I just open a window. Many in the UK run live steam indoors on a regular basis. But I know what Nate is getting at, just that my hearing is sensitive for other reasons. Heck, I run plastic wheel sets as the scraping of 2 axle cars in R1 curves on my overhead railway is like nails on a chalkboard to my hearing. Whats the vector victor?. I know Nate has probably never see that movie, before his time! Mike


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i would like to run inside, but if i ran in the house (not the garage or basement) Mom would have me executed!
personally, i prefer plastic wheels. they are lighter, and this allows me to pull more cars


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The issues with the wheels that others, espically out west see, is on a hot sunny day, they can melt due to how hot the rails can get. Even in the Indiana sunshine, lay your hands across my LGB brass rails in the late afternoon will get you burned. I normaly run in the early morning and at dusk after the heat of the day has passed. My railway is in the sun from mid day till around the time you get home from school. By late afternoon its in the shade of the house and operation can resume. Will be a few more years before the new shade trees get big enough to help much. Mike


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i dont think melted wheels will roll well, will they? LOL


i know what you mean by the rails getting hot, but here they have never gotten hot enough to melt the wheels

Mike, how is you wife doing??


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

wont be such a problem where you live, hot rails that is. She is doing better as each day passes. Thanks for asking. The LGB brand metal wheel sets are not that much heavier as they are just a metal rim on a plastic hub, but with the extra noise when running overhead in my living room will push me into an sensory overload/meltdown from the scraping noise they make in the curves. The engine is bad enough with its metal wheels. I have played around with pieces of brass tubing, making my own chuff pipes, some work, some don't. None are as loud as th "tuned" pipes from Summerlands Chuffers. I also do not like how they block up the chimney, forces more of the heat from the burner out the bottom of the open smoke box, I prefer the bulk of the heat and steam to go up the chimney than out the bottom. So no chuff pipe in my engines. Mike


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Some people have run live steam indoors. Besides the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning, the big challenge I have had relayed to me is adding a lot of moisture inside the house and causing rot, mildew, etc.

I guess if you lived in an arid climate it might not be damaging, but I thought you got humidity in Kokomo?

Anyway, MOST people run outdoors, so the point was that it will be louder inside in the few times you are inside, and why try to change it if it is right outdoors?

the "cuffs" will be "quiter" outdoors ;-)


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I guess a newer house might retain the cardon monoxide and humidity. Not mine! My dry skin shows it and thats with a whole house humidifier on the furnace. Yeah it gets humid here, but thats in the middle of summer, no way I am playing trains indoors when I have a beautiful railway outdoors! As soon as the late afternoon shade covers the railway, its time to get out the trains! But yes, most do only steam outdoors other than winter time shows like Diamondhead, Cabin Fever ect. Our local group will be steaming indoors at the NMRA show in Noblesville, IN on the 29th of this month. And Nate, my wife would hang me up to dry as well for stinking up the house with live steam. Only getting away with it right now since she is not home. She tollerates it when I test fire engines prior to a steam up, but that is about it.  Mike


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> Gary;
> A little chuff goes a long way.
> 
> You know steaming a gas fired locomotive requires listening to the sound it's making as all sorts of indicators. A loud accessory chuffer can make that from irritating to downright impossible, literally. That includes when the loud chuffer is rolling by the steam up bay and 20-30+ ft across a track, indoors and or outdoors.
> ...


Chris,

I have to admit that I have NEVER run a small toy steam engine..........I'm ONLY familiar with the large 1-1/2-3-3/4 inch scale models AND our 3-3/4 inch Porter IS a gas-fired locomotive (Propane). While I'm operating this engine at Los Angeles Live Steamers, I am constantly listening to the propane burners (we have 15 of them at 55,000 BTU) and I don't find it a problem hearing that fire even at 73 years old! AND I still have to watch the track as I'm running, watch for signals and other trains with passengers.  When I completed the valve gear and chassis on my Allen ten wheeler (1-1/2 inch scale), I took it to work with me to run it on air (needed a larger compressor than the one I had at home). I set the engine on rollers and hooked up the air. I was working in a large die shop at the time and it was noisy! So that I could hear the sound of the engine while the milling machines were running, I added a 
quick and dirty "chuffer" in the 8 inch diameter smokebox. Made a great sound! Yeah, I know a "little" something about steam engines AND I still say to Nate to not bother changing the chuffer. Like I said before, if these guys are "too sensitive" to the sound, then find a "quieter" hobby. 

OFF my soapbox .


----------



## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I can't take this any more,
I've been steaming small scale live steamers outdoors and indoors for over 20 years. I believe that running indoors is no worse than boiling water for a pot of tea. Rot and mildew? don't take a shower or run the clothes washer. Carbon monoxide; sure don't breathe the effluent from the loco directly, probably don't burn coal and be sure of decent ventilation but don't smoke cigars either. 
Outdoors the rails get hot in the sun, they're metal. Melt plastic wheels...oh boy!
A friend who is a certified air pollution analyst and I were discussing this very issue at an indoor steamup some years ago. Think volume of pollutants vs the volume of air. No problem says he.
Large scale steamers on outdoor tracks have little in comparison to our small locos in my opinion. Chuffers on small scale steamers have very different effects outdoors vs indoors. Running indoors at a large meet such as cabin fever or diamondhead reduces the ability to monitor the normal locomotive sounds due to ambient noise. A chuffer reduces that ability even further.
All Nate wanted to know was how to quiet his chuffer in indoor settings. The solution to that is simple, see my early post on this thread.
Can we get back to facts vs heresay and be sensitive to others' feelings vs telling them to go elsewhere? 
Tom


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Want a set of 4 axles with of USA trains plastic wheels with nice flat spots from sitting all day on a sunny part of my railway? Not saying it will melt them into a pool of plastic, but it can and will leave nice flat spots on a car left sitting on hot track long enough.  The newer FX chuffer is probably Nates best bet. Louder for outdoors and able to be turned down indoor if its to loud for him. Mike


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom Bowdler said:


> I can't take this any more,
> I've been steaming small scale live steamers outdoors and indoors for over 20 years. I believe that running indoors is no worse than boiling water for a pot of tea. Rot and mildew? don't take a shower or run the clothes washer. Carbon monoxide; sure don't breathe the effluent from the loco directly, probably don't burn coal and be sure of decent ventilation but don't smoke cigars either.
> Outdoors the rails get hot in the sun, they're metal. Melt plastic wheels...oh boy!
> A friend who is a certified air pollution analyst and I were discussing this very issue at an indoor steamup some years ago. Think volume of pollutants vs the volume of air. No problem says he.
> ...


Threads drift from the original topic all the time, whats the big deal ? I think as far as running inside it is as simple as this, "Maybe Burning your house or garage down". I know, I almost burnt my garage down once while running a alcohol fired engine. 

Call me stupid, not paying enough attention, etc. You don't have to worry about being sensitive to my feelings because I don't care, I have thick skin. As they say, "Stuff" happens, Murphies law is alive and well. Now go ahead and make all the excuses you want to run inside your house or garage.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, I wish you attended Cabin Fever when we were set up next to the auction. Forget the burner, all you hear is the dam auctioneer. By the end of Friday all you want is to get the **** out of there.

Nate, when you end up repairing the loco for the steam leak on the superheater, its easy then to remove the chuffer for the FX to be installed. Quick turn down of the OD and drill a hole in the end clean up and install the FX cover. Allows a small and a large outlet plus the stock being closed. 

Chuffers indoors get very annoying on some locos. Case in point the EBT, C19, and a few others. Some are just the right amount like the Caledonia or the Fairymead. The K36 was so loud my friend pulled his.

As to running inside, I cant imagine in any way how rot and mildew can happen. Holy **** really? Maybe time to ban bathing in the house from the steam.


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

what i really like is the ¨bark box" chuff enhancer. in my opinion, it produces a deeper, more realistic, chuff. however there isnt one available for the SRRL, and they are expensive.

BTW, jason, how do you remove that permatex thread sealant i got from you??


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

WHAT! You "Bathe" in the house!? I 'spose you gots Indoor plumbing, too? I just wait for the spring showers and run necked around the house once or twice.


----------



## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ive been running my LS in the house for years, and I do have CO detectors. I also run an exhaust fan while doing so. I watch the display on the detectors, never get over a 10 and the moisture is swept away with the CO by the exhaust fan, I also keep the fan on till the CO goes back to 0. Sometimes it's just too cold to run outside, as Nate has posted, and I need a steam fix or to test a modification. LG


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> I also do not like how they block up the chimney, forces more of the heat from the burner out the bottom of the open smoke box, I prefer the bulk of the heat and steam to go up the chimney than out the bottom. So no chuff pipe in my engines. Mike


I've heard you can void the Roundhouse warranty if you install a chuffer and it blocks the stack. It limits the draft trapping a lot of excess heat in the smokebox. There's a war between pushing the hot gases out the bottom of the smokebox while the locomotive is trying to suck in air.

At last year's summer steamup I saw a Roundhouse Garratt with a Summerland FX chuffer that took up about 3/4-7/8 of the small diameter stack. There was a lot of steam coming out from underneath the smokebox. It seamed unhealthy for the locomotive's breathing.


----------



## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

The chuffer takes up a lot of space in the thin stack.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> The chuffer takes up a lot of space in the thin stack.


IMHO chuffers have one significant advantage over the stock pipe - they direct the oily crud down to the track instead of shooting it out of the stack and all over your face or over the loco (depending on how close you are while starting up.)

The noise is a separate issue, which IMHO isn't very lifelike or better than standard. This short video has my EBT #12 and #7 (C-19) in action.






I'm becoming a fan of keeping the chuffer out of the stack and putting the orifice inside the smokebox area. I can't see the FX Chuffer solving either problem, though I have no experience with it.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Both of the RH engines I have owned, had the tops of the exhaust pipes crimped and an organ slot filed in them, so they didnt have the massive amounts of crap up the stack like the Accucraft products. Of, coarse, proper boiler water level, leaving room for the water to rise as it heats and turns to steam helps minimize that issue. My Argyll doesnt spit up the stack, neither does the Merlin Mayflower. You can her them spit and it comes out the bottom. Both have the factory exhaust. Mike


----------

