# Bachmann Connie saga continues



## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

Have taken the Connie apart, tightened up what was loose, 
and now here I am hoping the information bank at the forum can help me again.
All gears meshing and running fine backwards and forwards BUT...
where the gearbox mounts to the frame at the firebox end of the loco, I have a feeling the 
gearbox has come adrift from the tab that seems to be there as a support.
To illustrate have attached three photos.
First shows the "normal position" power off,
second and third show power applied and how much lateral and vertical movement there is in the gearbox, against the rear support tab. This cant be normal?
It doesn't seem right to me that there is no rear fixed gearbox support?
Is this tab normally glued/welded/ somehow attached to the gearbox and is loose on my Connie?
Can anyone let me know if this is normal and the same on their loco?

thanks


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That's just a retainer to keep the motor/gearbox from flopping back and forth too much. So long as the motor is firmly attached to the gearbox, and the gearbox to the axle, the mechanics of moving the loco on the tracks will be just fine. If it's too loose for your liking, you can tighten this up with any number of means. A little spot of hot glue, heck, even duct tape would probably keep it in place. It's not critical that this be tight.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Doesn't this amount of flexibility help tracking, or it just does not matter?

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Given that the loco has been apart, were the front sanding lines put back correctly in front of the cross member.
Not easy to do, but if they go behind that crossmember, they can drag on the front drivers and cause weird operation.


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

thanks Tony

at the moment its just a rolling chassis - the issue is definitely the gearbox
and as its the first time I have pulled apart and rebuilt a Connie I want to make sure that 
(because this loco was purchased used) there are no missing parts.


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

Thanks so much for your replies Greg and K

am attaching another photo for reference.
as far as I can see I have all mounts etc fully tight and in the right place.
If I grab the motor and lift it vertically - I can lift it enough (around 1/4 inch) to 
disengage the gear with the final drive gear in the axle. That cant be right?
It means the only thing keeping the motor and gearbox in contact with the drive gear on the axle, 
is the weight of the motor and gearbox.

Would love to know if anyone else's Connie is like this ?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If the motor itself moves relative to the gearbox, then that's not good. The motor should be firmly attached to the gearbox. The mounting screws are inside the gearbox, so you'll need to disassemble things to get to those screws.

The drive axle is sprung on the chassis, so the motor/gearbox assembly will move relative to any retainer attached firmly to the chassis itself, because the axle is moving within the frame. It needs to for the springing to work. Otherwise, the drive axle will be rigid in the frame and the loco's drivers can't adjust as well for uneven track. 

Later,

K


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

apologies K - I wasn't clear enough in my last post.
The motor and gearbox are one solid, screw tightened lump.
On the firebox side I can see only that guide tab that was mentioned earlier.
On the smokebox side there is a tab screwed to the chassis 
that allows the motor/gearbox assembly to move up and down 1/4 inch or so.
If I hold the motor/gearbox at the top of that travel the final drive gear onto the drive axle
disengages and the motor spins. 
So the only thing keeping the motor/gearbox engaged is its own weight.
There is also some lateral movement.
The unit works and the chassis will run backwards and forwards with no grinding or slipping,
so if that is the regular set up and I am not missing any pieces or procedure I will re-assemble and 
that's that. Just seems doomed to failure through lateral and vertical travel causing wear.
Given there is no suspension system at work in the gears, I get that the motor/gear assembly
must move up and down to compensate for the chassis moving up and down, it just seems 
that the lateral sway and general wobble is not the smartest way to mount it?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That is a little concerning that gravity seems to be holding the final 2 gears in mesh.

Also, one might be concerned that it might be too much force, or running in different directions might "un mesh" the gears.

I'm sorry I don't have one, but I'll check in with my Bachmann specialist.

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Update, can you shoot a picture from the underside, showing the axle, and the oillite bearings?

Thanks, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I finally figured out login. I deleted all such long ago.

Common issue, hopefully the fix works.
Look underneath. There are two oillite bearings on the main axle. They have a "cap" that fits inside the gearbox. If they slid out when you had it apart, the gears will not mesh when you lift the engine, and over-mesh when weighted down.

If you put a NWSL gear on the axle, and did not shim it to match the width of the old gear, one bearing can fall into the box, creating binding issues.


As Greg asks, shot of axle and gearbox from the bottom.
TOC


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

Hey guys - thanks for the research
Have attached two pics...one with the cover attached and one with it detached.
Am I missing a part here?

Checked the Bachmann Spares site diagrams and cant see any liners or bearings as a separate part :-(

thanks


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

First photo, cover in place, you can see the oillite bearing OUTSIDE the gearbox on the axle. Second photo, cover off, hard to tell but it LOOKS like the top oillite bearing is on backwards (LOT of work to get it back). The collars need to be towards the axle gear, and both bearings inside the gearbox.


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

wow... seems obvious when I look at it.
Ok .... thank you thank you fellas
Looks like I am taking the drive axle out then,
and perfect time to get the NWSL gear on as it arrived yesterday.

thanks again guys


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

ok quick update ... that bearing wasn't reversed, just a trick of the light on the pic.
got the gearbox re-attached with both bearings in the right place, and everything
is solid and as I would expect - thanks gentleman.
Andy


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

okay...if the bearing collars are pointed right, no removing axles. But, if you do a NWSL gear, do NOT listen to the ex-spurts who tell you 4-4-0/2-6-0 gears are the same as 2-8-0 gears. Different tooth count.
And I communicated with Oso, offered to send them an entire 2-8-0 gearbox and axle to see that the "hub" thickness on the Bach gear is almost twice as thick as the NWSL...and was refused (or ignored). I have bags of nylon washers. Some have a smaller hole, so I nibble them out with a hole punch. The washers hold the axle gearbox oillite bearings in place.


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

Thanks again... 
As the units running at the moment, I am going to run it until it isn't,
then use the NWSL gear that I ordered. Duly noted about the washers etc .


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## Bob Baxter (Jan 3, 2008)

I seem to remember that some of the screws were a bit too long and that no matter how tight you made them they weren't holding things together. Try some washers under the heads of the screws.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Curmudgeon said:


> ...But, if you do a NWSL gear, do NOT listen to the ex-spurts who tell you 4-4-0/2-6-0 gears are the same as 2-8-0 gears. Different tooth count.


Dave, I beg to differ. I've pulled gears out of 2-8-0s, 4-4-0s, and 2-6-0s. They're the same gear, at least out of the locos I've disassembled. Others have seen the same thing. Perhaps Bachmann changed the gears at one point, I can't say. Obviously since NWSL offers gears with different tooth counts, _someone _had models with different gears, but not me. 

When in doubt, pull the gear, count the teeth, and order the appropriate one.

Later,

K


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

thanks fellas - the NWSL gear that came was 222-6, the one recommended on here. 
So am trusting its the correct number of teeth etc.

I must be some kind of masochist, because I have just taken the bottom of a Bachmann hand Car !!!!
I bought it NIB - but must have been on the shelf for 8 years plus before I bought it... bit of a disaster.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

East Broad Top said:


> Dave, I beg to differ. I've pulled gears out of 2-8-0s, 4-4-0s, and 2-6-0s. They're the same gear, at least out of the locos I've disassembled. Others have seen the same thing. Perhaps Bachmann changed the gears at one point, I can't say. Obviously since NWSL offers gears with different tooth counts, _someone _had models with different gears, but not me.
> 
> When in doubt, pull the gear, count the teeth, and order the appropriate one.
> 
> ...


2223-6 24 tooth 15.5mm diameter Bachmann 4-4-0 axle gear
2226-6 25 tooth 15.8mm diameter Bachmann 2-8-0 axle gear
http://nebula.wsimg.com/fccfcd478cf...EE66B97B387F20C0D&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
Page 12, Large Scale/

When you posted that erroneous information LONG ago we did a ROFLOFAO. There are two distinct gears, and if you want different tooth counts AND different diameters, go for it.
That's the NWSL Catalog

What does my good buddy say? I just want to help.

TOC


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

... wait for it ....


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

waiting for a snappy comeback to refute the actual catalog......won't be long now.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, Dave, I am well aware of what the NWSL catalog shows for the gears. That's why I was surprised when I opened up the gearbox on my 4-4-0 and found this: 










I measured and counted a few times myself, wondering what was going on. The "catalog" said the 4-4-0 used a 24-tooth gear, and here I was, staring face to face with a 25-tooth gear. Something had to be wrong, right? Do I believe what the catalog says I should be seeing or what I'm holding in my own hands? I ordered the "wrong" gear--the larger 25-tooth gear listed in the catalog for the 2-8-0--and it was a perfect match for what came out of my 4-4-0. I have yet to work on a 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 (or 2-8-0) that did not have this same 25-tooth gear in it, and all are now running very well with the 25-tooth replacement gear installed in its place. If you want to laugh, go ahead. If you want your loco to run well, count the teeth and order the appropriate replacement gear regardless of what the "catalog" says you should get. 

I know the gear in the photo is from my 4-4-0 because the dark stuff on it is remnants of the JB Weld I had put on the gear to keep it from slipping on the axle before the crack worked its way all the way to the edge and died completely. (Hey--it held up for a year or more with that patch!) That, and I set it aside specifically because it was a departure from what the "catalog" said it should be. Not that I thought years later someone would suggest I don't know what I'm talking about, mind you, I just found it curious and worth keeping. 

Later,

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, old home week.  Welcome back gents.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It will take a while....I have boxes and boxes of bags and bags of all types of FAILED Botch parts.....including axle gears...and I can dig around and show the 4-4-0/2-6-0 gears. 
Of course, taking a measurement of C/L of spur to axle on each, halving appropriate diameters, and calculating appropriate mesh engagement...

And you honestly think that the LCW's actually care about insuring correct parts are installed in appropriate units?

Heck, even NWSLW's got it wrong.... .6mod initial release case in point.

Oh, and I can do that, too.....take a photo of any axle gear and caption it any way I want to.

Remember, 92.6% of all internet data is made up.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dave, please do look for a 24-tooth 4-4-0 gear. You would be the first modeler I've heard from who's found one, but I've never doubted the possibility of their existence. I'd love to see it. It's anyone's guess what happens behind the scenes at Bachmann when it comes to parts suppliers. 

Having said that, it's clear from your response to my photo that you have no interest in doing anything other than pushing my buttons on this issue. You've accused me of posting "erroneous" information, and are now accusing me of falsely identifying a photo in response. You apparently have no interest in listening to or believing anything I post. Further dialogue is fruitless. 

To other modelers, my advice remains: count the teeth on your gear, then order the appropriate one.

Later,

K


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## Duntourin (Dec 30, 2017)

ummmmm this makes me kinda sorry I ever brought this up.
I'm from the UK originally and love the fact that this hobby crosses frontiers,
and brings people with a common interest together.
I feel bad that I have apparently raked over some coals in the ash pit that are still burning :- l


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Duntourin said:


> ummmmm this makes me kinda sorry I ever brought this up.
> I'm from the UK originally and love the fact that this hobby crosses frontiers,
> and brings people with a common interest together.
> I feel bad that I have apparently raked over some coals in the ash pit that are still burning :- l


oh, no, this is FUN! Just ask Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewhite

Oh, and MISTER Strong...any idea who gutted a 4-4-0 and sent the gearbox to Raul to have him MAKE the 4-4-0 gear?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think we should all find the nearest 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 and immediately tear them apart to count the teeth. 

Kevin, have you notified NWSL that their catalog is in error? If we are _really_ talking about helping people getting the right part, then according to you, NWSL is in error and selling the wrong part to unsuspecting modelers, right? 

Greg

p.s. I do not doubt you took that gear from one of your locos. Is there any possibility that you are not the first owner of that loco? Or that that loco is an anomaly?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You would have had no idea. Dave's been absent from this site for quite a while. I have a lot of respect for Dave's knowledge of Bachmann locos and their engineering, but for reasons which remain lost to me, he's taken a shine to not believing me when I write of my experiences with them, especially when they run contrary to his own. (I believe the worst I ever did to him was park a Chevy in his driveway when I visited. Dave's a Ford guy. Either that or I ran over his cat in a former life...) 

Anyway, don't let these little skiffs scare you from asking the questions you need answered. As moderators, we try to keep these kinds of things under control, however I have a policy of not moderating heated discourse with which I am directly involved. 

Later,

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, that particular 4-4-0 was one of the first production locos off the boat--"payment" from Bachmann to my dad for allowing them to use his railway to film their instructional video. As for the other 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s I've worked on, I couldn't begin to tell you where they fell in the production runs. I've owned two 2-6-0s excluding the most recent one with the metal gear, and I've worked on other 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s for friends. 

I've not contacted NWSL, because I don't know that Bachmann _didn't _use a 24-tooth gear at some point, so I can't say with any confidence that it's _not _correct for some locos. I figure they do their homework when bringing these things out. That's why I usually suggest folks open their locos up first before ordering, so they get the correct one. I'm just glad NWSL's catalog is detailed enough so we can compare what we've got with what they offer. 

Later,

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

and....we never will know what Howard or the Kader Dynasty actually DID.

Running Changes. NO available documentation.

Example:

Do you remember the motor screw issue on the 2-8-0?
Had to do a full teardown and locktite the motor screws?
Well, at some point, they locktited them. I forget..purple...needed a torch to get them loose.
But, at about the same point in production, they added four bars on the underside of the tender floor. Two under each circuit board holding the sockets to connect the loco to, to keep the boards tight against the covers.

Since no one knew for certain if those two things happened at the same time, we had to open the gearboxes anyway to check.

The information, according to Philly, was "proprietary", which in layman's parlance meant they had no idea and were not about to ask.

Same could apply here.

Did Howard decide they needed to change the final drive ratio? Did it involve moving the pin fr the idler gear to compensate?

We will never know...but.rest assured, when Raul at NWSL did the gears, they were designed after the originals, hence two distinct part numbers.

This about it.

Do the third grade math and show the work.

TOC


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Curmudgeon said:


> Oh, and MISTER Strong...any idea who gutted a 4-4-0 and sent the gearbox to Raul to have him MAKE the 4-4-0 gear?


Dave, it wouldn't remotely surprise me that it was you. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of _me _having a different gear in _my _locos. It means there's a likelihood that Bachmann used two different gears. (Or a number of other plausible explanations.) The difference between the two gears is negligible--a difference of around .006" radius. With the way Bachmann builds its gearboxes, it's doubtful anyone would ever know there's a difference. As you rightly point out, there have been many undocumented changes. 

Later,

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to understand, you have one of the very first 4-4-0's and it has a 25 tooth gear. 

And all the latest ones you have worked on have a 25 tooth gear.

And you are willing to go to the mat with this information.

But, NWSL catalog says it takes a 24 tooth ONLY... not "some do and some don't"... so why _not _check with them and help them avoid selling the wrong part to someone not as smart as you? 

Anyway, indeed I agree with you: the best advice is to check your gear, and when ordering a gear from NWSL, don't tell them what loco you have, (or you will have to tell them Kevin says their catalog is wrong. )

Greg




East Broad Top said:


> Greg, that particular 4-4-0 was one of the first production locos off the boat--"payment" from Bachmann to my dad for allowing them to use his railway to film their instructional video. As for the other 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s I've worked on, I couldn't begin to tell you where they fell in the production runs. I've owned two 2-6-0s excluding the most recent one with the metal gear, and I've worked on other 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s for friends.
> 
> I've _*not *_contacted NWSL, because I don't know that Bachmann _*didn't* _use a 24-tooth gear at some point, so I can't say with any confidence that it's _*not* _correct for some locos. (ed: Pretty fancy footwork, my elementary school English teacher would have beat me to a pulp for a sentence like that ha ha!) I figure they do their homework when bringing these things out. That's why I usually suggest folks open their locos up first before ordering, so they get the correct one. I'm just glad NWSL's catalog is detailed enough so we can compare what we've got with what they offer.
> 
> ...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Just to understand, you have one of the very first 4-4-0's and it has a 25 tooth gear.
> 
> And all the latest ones you have worked on have a 25 tooth gear.
> 
> ...


You do make a valid point--a disclaimer of sorts in the catalog would be a good suggestion. Bachmann lists a replacement axle/gear assembly on their web site for the 4-4-0. I've got to put in an order for some parts, I'm tempted to spring for the extra $6.30 just to see what they're selling as its replacement. (The photo does not clearly show all of the teeth.) As much confidence as I have in what I've pulled from the locos I've worked on, if I were to go to NWSL with "this is what Bachmann sells as a replacement today," it'd probably carry a lot more weight. That, of course, assumes the gear they sell has 25 teeth. It may only have 24, in which case we're back to my experience against factory specs, and the myriad questions that creates. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, now you got it, these parts break all the time, these locos are often bought by new modelers and they are inexpensive so people are trying to save money by fixing themselves.

If nothing else, a disclaimer to be sure to count the teeth on your gear before ordering on the catalog page would help a lot of people. 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I found my box of 2-8-0 parts. I know I have gears and gearboxes out of 4-4-0's and 2-6-0's, just haven't found them yet. I do have what....six or so new 4-4-0's but am reluctant to tear down new ones yet. Still looking.


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