# CIWL Train Bleu



## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a miscellaneous collection of Wagon Lit coaches made by J&M and David Leech. I'd like to set them up as a coherent set looking like a "train bleu" from the early 1950s. Can anyone point me to a source where I can find the color scheme from this era. Some of my coaches have yellow lining and gray roofs, other have red lining and white roofs.... I'm not setting out for total authenticity but I'd like it to look good! 

Robert


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## bkkkthevine (Jan 6, 2008)

Try contacting David Leech at [email protected]. Although he no longer builds these coaches, he might be able to give you some guidance. For the Train Bleu the coach bodies wouId be blue or blue and ivory depending upon what type of coach is involved. If the blue on your Leech coaches does not match the blue on your J&M coaches, perhaps Mr. Leech could help you. I own 5 CIWL coaches built by Exclusive Models in The Netherlands. The owner told me that the roofs of the CIWL coaches of the current Venice Simplon Orient Express were painted white at the time of their refurishment in the early 1980's. Prior to that the CIWL coach roofs were painted dark gray, as are mine. I hope this is of some help. 
Bob


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks - that figures - I have 5 J&M CIWL Train Bleu and they match perfectly. One J&M Etoile du Nord is darker blue and ivory with a gray roof. The leech caches are a brighter blue with white roofs and all together and more garish.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi there Zephira I just happened to notice this old thread by accident today in July 2019 so apologies for this late response. I only joined around 2010.
The Blue train sported mainly LX sleeping cars and one diner in its consist on part of its run (probably uncoupled in Laroche Migennes before the big hill on the PLM which was between that town and Dijon). In its early times it probably sported some S type sleepers which were most likely replaced by Lx as they became available. The old original LX livery would be good for very early versions of the train (powered then by PLM pacifics in their original condition therefore a good match to the Aster PLM pacific). This livery was blue with ornate gold leaf lining as per original brown Flèche d'Or pullmans, however this was done in gold leaf contrarily to the J&M models where it is painted in yellow, of course, hence the name of the train which wasn't official for many years.. A carry over from the days of wooden passenger cars, all trains in the pre war era (PLM era) had to have one baggage between the engine and the train and one at the end of the train. The blue train often used wooden baggage cars of both the bogie versions and the six wheel ones (of which I have a model) it later received the all steel baggage like the J&M one. After the war it was hauled by SNCF 2-D-2 9100 electrics (very nice Fulgurex model available if you can find it. I scratch built my own one which inspired Fulgurex who had their stand right next to the showcase it was in at a Paris exhibition...) to Dijon then in 1952 to Lyons as the electrification progressed south. Further out to Marseilles it was hauled by the brand new 241P as offered by the Twerenbolds and Aster a few years ago. From Marseilles on to Vintigmillia the very mountainous line along the riviera it was hauled by the liberation mikados 141 R (Aster model oil fired version fine); as these made up on the hill climbing what they lost on the level sections. At this time it often ran with one baggage only as the old restriction of two baggage cars had been lifted by then. However it did feature a very unique bar-dancing car which was obtained from the body of a Côte d'Azur pullman (7 windows type without kitchen) painted all blue to match the rest of the consist (this model was done by J&M). After 1932 the cars were blue with yellow simplified lining as per J&M models. The fame of this train is what made the CIWLT change from the British inspired dark umber below the window sash and cream to blue and cream or blue for sleepers, diners and bagage cars. Now of course the Blue train had some through cars north of Paris hauled on the NORD railway with Super pacifics on the point (Extremly rare Bockholt model in electric) then the Chapelon pacifics. It was sometimes combined with two couplage (one pullman with kitchen+ one sans Kitchen) of Pullmans on the Golden Arrow. So before 1934 with a Colin or De Caso super pacific (The chapelons were built for the Nord in 1934 and weren't really operational until 1935) you could do a train with the Flèche d'Or container baggage, two couplages of Golden Arrow Pullmans in brown and cream and a few blue LX with the original striping + one baggage bringin up the rear, which would make quite a beautiful train. If only Fulgurex had turned out that Super pacific it planned to do back in the late eighties...
By the way this brings up an information I often repeat to American modelers: The Brown Golden Arrow pullmans were repainted in 1932 to the blue livery with simplified lining, the Chapelons really began to appear on the NORD in force in 1935 so don't match them as it isn't historically accurate, at least for those who like me are historically inclined in their modeling. Of course you do what you want on your pike.
To answer you on the livery of these cars it is likely that they did sport white roofs for the early livery version and stripping, however it was later changed to battleship grey roofs these both stayed that way for less than six months then gradually became black which is what we remember in SNCF days. At one time I sprayed some black lightly on the grey roofs to show an intermediate sittuation. But I since have stopped that practice at it makes touch ups quite impossible to do in case the paint chips...The best source book on Wagon lits is the one by Gerard Coudert edited by La Vie du Rail called La Compagnie des Wagons Lits. He got most of his info from Comault who was the best specialist on CIWLT in the old days... I hope I didn't bother too many with my "mister grumpy" historical facts, Cheers!


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

du-bousquetaire said:


> I hope I didn't bother too many with my "mister grumpy" historical facts, Cheers!


You did not bother me  ; an excellent post.
As far as I know the later Train Bleu even had "not blue" sleeping cars in its consist, i.e. the type P stainless steel cars:




Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Fred : Right you are I completly forgot to mention these type P (for Pillpich who designed them, they were a sort of European version of the Duplex sleepers in the USA with windows and rooms on two levels) stainless steel cars built by Budd correspondant Carel Fouché as kits furnished to other European builders, with the old style siding like on the Zephyrs and fairly short. I think some are still running in Belgium today or were a few years ago. These are really just for the end of steam though bought out in 1955 and 1956. Marseilles was electrified in 1962, and Nice in 1969.
Excellent video and beautiful consist Fred those type P are magnificent. Who built them, I wonder? Also the Liberation mikado with spoked drivers and Cole bissel truck which is I guess electric.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

The video shows a large scale train but not very large  ; it is an 0 gauge (1:43.5) 2-rail electric train. The locomotive is by Sunset 3rd rail; The P sleepers are by Fulgurex and the remainder of the train is Elettren. I do not think any P sleeper was ever made in 1 gauge.

Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

You had me fooled Fred; great train none the less. Brings back memories of seeing it run when it was in service. I remember going by metro to the footbridge at Charenton and seeing it run in two sections back in the early 70s with plenty of Lx cars still in service although by then most had been fitted with Minden Deutze bogies for running at sustained high speeds with electric locos. It was often hauled by a 2-D-2 9100 owing to the fact that being a night train it was not handicapped by that engines speed limit at 140 Km/h. There were many Pillepitch cars on it, but few of the MU, UH or LU cars then. Great memories of when the "ligne Impérial" was like the Pennsy's broad way. Which it was with over 180 km of four track main line. I once tried to sleep on a mopped trip to Burgundy, when a teen ager, in an old bloc station shed and just couldn't sleep as there was a train nearly every minute there. What a sight! Of course at the time it was all electric.
My good friend the railway painter Chris Ludlow had the chance of seing such traffic in the Midlands, when it was all steam: A3, A4 and pepercorn class A2, wow what a show that must have been... 

The only high speed mainline steam I got to see was Chapelons 141 P on the Grandville express climbing the bank out of Montparnasse station in so brilliant a way that I became instantly enamoured with compounds. And once a trip behind a 241P. Much later I got to ride on the footplate of the the preserved ETAT 2-3-1 G 53 which is the nearest thing you can experience to being on a Chapelon pacific as the original ETAT pacific, before rebuilding were modified copies of the Paris Orléans pacifics and were integrally Chapelonised by the Sotteville shops. Which made them equivalent to a Chapelon save the radial firebox, front bogie and rear bissel truck as well as the tender because the Etat had water troughs. There is an Ochre kit in 1/32 scale of this loco but it has big problems with the proportions which are not right. This engine climbed an 0,8% grade from a standstill at Alençon cresting the top of the grade at better than 75km/hour when I rode on it. It would be a nice kitbashing project to rebuild an Aster Chapelon into one of these brilliant engines, which used to haul the boat trains to Le Havre and Cherbourg in steamship days with the ETAT transatlantic pullmans.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

fredlub said:


> The video shows a large scale train but not very large  ; it is an 0 gauge (1:43.5) 2-rail electric train. The locomotive is by Sunset 3rd rail; The P sleepers are by Fulgurex and the remainder of the train is Elettren. I do not think any P sleeper was ever made in 1 gauge.
> 
> Regards
> Fred


I thought that was an 0 gauge train when I saw the 8 door baggage car - I believe JandM only ever made a 6 door in gauge 1.


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## fredlub (Feb 7, 2010)

John 842 said:


> I thought that was an 0 gauge train when I saw the 8 door baggage car - I believe JandM only ever made a 6 door in gauge 1.


Indeed; J&M never made a 8 door baggage car; the 8 door baggage car was not made in any gauge except for the 0 gauge Elettren version shown in the video and a not very scale like version in H0 gauge by Jouef.
The 6 door versions were made by many more manufacturers; in 1 gauge also by Wunder.
Many models of CIWL cars can be seen in my e-book on that subject (free to read or download): CIWL in Miniature – Many different model trains in all scales & gauges

Regards
Fred


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually le train Bleu is perhaps one of the more difficult trains to model for the following reasons (at least in post 1950 era): With electric traction the load limit increased substantially often attaining over 12 cars even 16 could be observed fairly easely. Sometimes at vacation's it even ran in second sections. In those days it usually did not include a baggage car any more, or would use a SNCF one (like an ex PLM metalised six wheeler rebuilt by the SNCF). I mention all this because both the SNCF 2D2 9100 and the CC 7100 have been offered tin gauge one in electric. So that could cover the first leg of the trip from Paris to Lyon then after 1957 to Marseilles. From 1952 to '57 the 241 P would handle it to Marseilles. A liberation mikado (141R) from there to Nice and Vintimille.So indeed all the motive power used on that mythical train has been produced (Even for the pre war version with the Aster PLM pacific and Bockholt's PLM 241 A Or C!) The problem is aligning (and hauling) a 16 car train of J&M Wagons lits both LX and S types as well as the rare Bar dancing car (an ex Cote d'Azur pullman modified) And of course as Fred mentioned the Pilepitch Stainless steel sleepers which are not available in gauge one. More recently all the U and Hansa sleepers of modern German design are not produced either. A better bet would be to model the Cote d'Azur Pullman of the thirties which would consist of four pullmans (couplages) and two baggages, one at each end. For a time the early post war Mistral consisted of one PLM baggage (Wilag) one cote d'azur pullman (7 windows one), one diner and three OCEM cars of first and second class. 
Which makes me want to announce those interested in French railways that these very staple french cars (OCEM smooth side coaches) are being manufactured by Atelier Vaporiste in a craftsman wood laser cut kit. There are many versions being offered, but it is quite a job to build them and paint them correctly. However these are very atractivly priced. Usual disclaimer.
Best, Simon


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Thanks for the post Robert and for the information everyone, and Simon many thanks for the note that OCEM cars are available as a kit from Atelier Vaporiste, I will contact them to get some. I won't be as accurate in my train make up but having OCEM cars does enable some different trains to mix with my J&M CIWL coaches on my small layout.
Russell


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