# laser level?



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone ever use a laser level for laying out a garden railroad?
Im planning a 40x30 foot dogbone loop, which I would like to be perfectly level..the ground slopes somewhat.
I have messed around with a water level, which works ok..but I thought a laser level might be good for making a lot of markings all at once,
on track supports for example..

I assume it would have to be used at dusk..or even after dark! which is fine with me..

are any of the $30 to $40 units capable of projecting across 40 feet?
anyone have any experience trying this?
input is welcome!

thanks,
Scot


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, I surveyed mine with a laser level. Works great! Yes, you'll want to work in the afternoon/evening. The key is to make sure the tripod you've got the laser mounted to is absolutely level itself (and then DO NOT bump it). 










I used my video tripod with an adjustable head that I can level. Probably not in everyone's closet, but if you put a button level (the little round ones that look like a target) on the top of a regular tripod, you can adjust the legs carefully to set the level. (then DO NOT bump it!) 










I then shot the laser at a yardstick. The first survey was to plot the total elevation of the yard, whcih I did in a 5' square grid pattern. Once I had that, dad plotted the height into his 3D animation program to give me an idea of the drainage of the yard (important for HOA approval of landscaping), and to figure out the overall slope to see what kind of grade I'd be dealing with. Once I had a track plan in place, I then staked out the route, then used the laser level to set the stakes to the correct height. (DO NOT bump the tripod!) 

Did I mention that you don't want to bump the tripod? 

Later, 

K


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I use a small one I got at Sears for around $25.00 and mounted on a camera tripod. Works great and shot in my layout which is 75' long. Evening works best.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Kevin and Mark! 
I think im going to give it a try!  
should be just the thing.. 

thanks, 
Scot


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I used a laser pointer (like used for lectures and presentations) taped to torpedo level. I calibrated it by shooting a spot about 80-ft away and then shooting it back the other way and it was within 1/4 inch. I then just rubberbanded it to a camera tripod table and aimed it by sighting along it toward the area I wanted to mark elevation, then with a yardstick I searched for the laser spot out at that location. Tedius, but it worked okay... at least better than my ability to make/cut the posts of my elevated layout!

Oh, and, uh... Don't bump the tripod! (Don't trip over it either!)


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

We tried one from Harbor Freight, just plain useless. The tripod is a complete waste. Weak and flimzy and unstable, legs don't stay set, leveling adjustments totally worthless. The laser light is dim, only good in the evening. Do not waste your money on one from HF.

Being an old Field Artillery guy, I am a bit prejudice I suppose. Real survey quality instruments are much better. I would look at a surplus shop, eBay or a pawn shop for an optical transit or theodolite. Probably a lot of that stuff around since everyone has gone GPS.


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I made a water level from an old peanut jar, some tubing, and tap water. It's actually more accurate than a laser level because a laser level won't follow the curvature of the earth. A water level will. (But maybe that makes it curved, not level?). Anyway, the accuracy achieved with a water level is amazing; the height of the water tension bubble in the tube (


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Definitely do not buy a cheap one.

I use this one, self levelling:










Using a laser level is too tough, getting it exactly level. There are some other self-levelling units, but their beam is too week to do anything easily.

Regards, Greg


----------



## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Here is the link to one at Amazon for $67. I bought one of these back in June and have been using it for railroad grade layout, pond and stream construction, and landscape wall construction. It is a five-beam, self-leveling type of laser. I mount it on a camera tripod, turn it on and start work. Even in the middle of the summer day, with super bright sunlight, the red dots are clearly visible at over thirty feet. link to laser level


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I had one with dots, spent a lot of time moving it to get the dot to where I was, that's why I graduated to sending a horizontal or vertical line (you can see the horiz and vert line buttons) 

Of course it takes a more powerful laser to do this, so mine was more expensive... but worth it to me in convenience. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

Found mine (johnson) in a residentialconstructiondumpster (RCD) while doing deliveries a couple yrs back used it recently to ensure holes for upgrade to back alley (security) fenceline were at same depth (= top of completed fence level +/- a couple hundreths of a foot) 

The contractor who tossed it (for some reason ?) did not toss a tripod too ! Never thought of my camera tripod (thanks for that mention) so have been setting it on a flat surface (large cement piece or bottom of a unused plant pot) level chkd with a 6inch level. This unit self-levels up to a certain % off plumb so real close is good enough. 

Yeah, laserlight not to bright in sunshine even with included laser enhancement shades !


doug c


----------



## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

I use a Johnson rotary laser level. Works great, but not in bright sunlight.


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, I used a very inexpensive 2 foot level with a laser in it when I laid out the new RR 5 years ago. It worked quite well for what I wanted. 

The tripod mounds are certainly the best. I think Kevin was trying to get a point across.


----------



## tmtrainz (Feb 9, 2010)

Use a string with a line level. Much cheaper and just as effective, if not more. Don't trip on the string!!!


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

so I guess you could simply mount a $2 laser pointer on a small $2 level and use that. When the bubble centers, the light should point true horizontal


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

string sags, more work, but it's a convenience and accuracy tradeoff... 

I've tried everything and I'm really happy with what I am using, more time for trains. 

Greg


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

I know it's an outlandish case of overkill but surveying is my oldest son's profession, and it's his old instrument.

CST/Berger 302R Total Station


----------



## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a contractor quality laser I bought about 15 years ago to lay gauge #1 track. It cost a bit over $300 at the time and is visible in daylight. I've used it for all of my track laying and I'd never attempt to do without it.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 06 Aug 2010 08:59 AM 
so I guess you could simply mount a $2 laser pointer on a small $2 level and use that. When the bubble centers, the light should point true horizontal 

That is exactly what I refereed to above... but you have to calibrate it somehow... the laser beam has to be parallel with the mounting surface of the level. My 1st setup just happened to work the way I taped it on, but I tried to make another one and had to mess with a thin shim on one end of the laser to raise it to make the beam level when the bubble was centered.

I placed the taped together level and laser on a table on my deck and adjusted the level with shims to get the bubble centered and marked a spot on a board about 80 feet away. Then I went to that spot and put the device on a tripod and adjusted the tripod to get the laser at the elevation of the marked spot. Then I centered the bubble again and shot a point back at the 1st location on the deck. My first unit was off by only about 1/4 inch, but the second one was off by about 15 inches! It took me quite a while to find the spot the first time, as my target was only an 8.5x11 inch piece of paper on a cardboard stand.

If I had laid out a track using that setup without correcting it, that error of about 7.5 inches in 80-feet would have resulted in a 0.78% grade!

It took all evening, carrying the unit back and forth across my yard, sticking shims of aluminium foil under one end of the laser between it and the level to get it right. (Well, I never got it as good as the 1st one.) I also found that my ability to "center the bubble" was severely lacking in accuracy! After I would add (or remove) a shim I would have to check the error multiple times before I could decide if the change made it better or worse! (It also would not have taken so long if I could have gotten my head on straight and not so consistently(!!!) adjusted the shim the wrong way when I made changes!)

Oh yeah, when you are doing all of this, DON'T bump the tripod! (Or trip over it! Especially, don't TRIP over it! Tripods are quite Sadistic and will deliberately stick one of their spindly legs out when you walk by just specifically to trip you... then you get to go in the house to change your clothes due to the grass stains on your pants and the tear in your shirt-sleeve... and to put a Band-aid on your elbow. You will also have to endure the snickers by your neighbors when you come back outside.)


----------



## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I used a DeWalt DW099 for building my layout. I like it because there isn't a tripod. You can lay it on the ground, track, or any where. It shoots beams in three directions and has three bubble levels.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 05 Aug 2010 08:01 PM 
I made a water level from an old peanut jar, some tubing, and tap water. It's actually more accurate than a laser level because a laser level won't follow the curvature of the earth. A water level will. (But maybe that makes it curved, not level?). Anyway, the accuracy achieved with a water level is amazing; the height of the water tension bubble in the tube (


----------



## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used a two foot laser level on a good tripod. Key is to get it very level because over a distance even a small error is going to make a difference. I use a white paper plate as a target. The kind of laser that some have suggested that rotates (spins) would work better. You have to be real careful when rotating the laser level to keep it level. I've used a water level in the past, and agree with Del and Bob, that it is really very accurate. 

Mike


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I used a lazer level of the kind they use to install suspended ceilings. I made a concrret and cinderblock pedistal for it to rest permanantly. I made box to cover it when not in use. It was at a point where it covered 90 % of the layout. Once I set it up I never moved it. I only checked it's level. I worked well but I had to do most of my measurements at night. I could not see it in dayllight at all. It was a big help but I gave up on it after a while. If you can set it up in a spot wher eyou never have to take it down or move it. It could be a asset about the same as a water level


----------



## danielpower (Aug 8, 2010)

I also use a laser pointer to do that.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hmmmm I don't think there's any level track on my RR! 
All maximun grades (3%) were done with a stick and a block of wood under one end and a simple torpedo level on top. After the grade was set the same level checked side to side level. 
I find the stick method more accurate when doing curves as I've yet to see a lazer bend to a diameter! (Unless you want it all flat, but I've never seen such a RR as that.) 

John


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's why I recommended a laser that sends horizontal and vertical beams instead of a dot... with the dot I was spending more time turning the level than measuring. 

Greg


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I bought a professional-grade Dewalt self-leveling rotary laser, detector, tripod, and grade stick because 1) I'm a tool freak, 2) I'm doing a major re-landscaping project that includes establishing grades, 3) I'll eventually get to use it for building my garden railroad, 4) I felt bad about taking advantage of the long-term loan of a friend's similar equipment, and 5) it was on sale (closeout) for far below the original price or equivalent current models. It's good for 1/8" or less error over 100 feet, and with the detector I can measure farther than that. Set-up is a snap: just get the tripod close to level, turn the laser on, wait for it to level itself, and go to work with the grade stick and detector. The detector has two or three levels of accuracy sensitivity for the beeper, which is kind of nice for different types of work, or you can turn the beeper off entirely and just use the bar graph display. (Detectors can be purchased separately and will work with any laser of the appropriate wavelength.) 

Before I started using this level of gear, I tried the el-cheapo route of mounting a HF laser-pointer level to a camera tripod. That was an exercise in frustration. First, the internal mounting of the laser pointer in the level doesn't ensure adequate parallelism of the beam with the level, and secondly, any error in setting it up, based on the bubble level, gets amplified so much at the distances involved in my project made it worthless. (I used a water level as a reference gauge.) 

A water level is extremely accurate, and has the advantage that it can go around blind curves and other line-of-sight obstacles that interfere with a laser level. The downsides that I found is that it almost requires two people, and you have to be very careful handling it to avoid spilling water. 

Del, are you just being funny with the "curvature of the earth" comment? How big of a garden railroad are you building?!


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 09 Aug 2010 05:36 PM 
...

A water level is extremely accurate, and has the advantage that it can go around blind curves and other line-of-sight obstacles that interfere with a laser level. The downsides that I found is that it almost requires two people, and you have to be very careful handling it to avoid spilling water. 

Del, are you just being funny with the "curvature of the earth" comment? How big of a garden railroad are you building?! 


Not a joke. I believe it is true isn't it? 

As to the water level, you can easily build a ONE MAN water level by simply inserting a tube through the lid of a plastic jar filled with water. The water level in the jar is the reference, and the tube is the working end. Many have a hard time believing this works, but it does. Simple plug the end of the tube when not in use. The only down side to a water level is you either need enough tubing to cover the entire job site, or you will have to move your reference point closer to the work. It sounds like you may have to do that with a laser level anyway. From the above posts, I'm a little disappointed. I always thought I was missing out on a high-tech solution. Now, perhaps not so much.


----------



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I suppose the water hose method wins out for the most effective, least costly solution b/c now that I think about it, the water bubble depends on your eye reckoning it to be dead center and it probably never is, as someone seems to have mentioned. I'll be using that method in building a garden aqueduct this fall, where elevation/slope is critical, more so than in tracks. 

Dave


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

thanks everyone! 
lots of good suggestions here! 

after reading this whole thread..I think I will also go back to just using the water level!  
sounds like the laser level can be a useful tool, but only if you want to pay for a good quality one..which I dont. 
(not worth the $$ to me, when I can just use a free scrap of hose just as easily!  

so thanks! 
this has been a most useful thread.. 

Scot


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

after reading this whole thread..I think I will also go back to just using the water level!  
sounds like the laser level can be a useful tool, but only if you want to pay for a good quality one..which I dont. 
I'll take even a flaky laser level over a water level any day of the week. It's so much easier to work with, even with the risk of bumping the tripod. Nothing spills, no need to try to figure out variances in the meniscus of the water in the tube, worrying about kinks, etc. 

Later, 

K


----------



## benny2.0 (Jan 12, 2010)

I use a cheep 39$$ laser that has a flat beam. 
I set it up on a level brick in the corner of the layout. 
Now take a reading at the laser with a yard stick and away you go. 
As long as the laser is level the beam will be flat. 
Nothing to it. 
Benjamen


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 09 Aug 2010 05:50 PM 
Posted By RimfireJim on 09 Aug 2010 05:36 PM 
...

A water level is extremely accurate, and has the advantage that it can go around blind curves and other line-of-sight obstacles that interfere with a laser level. The downsides that I found is that it almost requires two people, and you have to be very careful handling it to avoid spilling water. 

Del, are you just being funny with the "curvature of the earth" comment? How big of a garden railroad are you building?! 


Not a joke. I believe it is true isn't it? 

As to the water level, you can easily build a ONE MAN water level by simply inserting a tube through the lid of a plastic jar filled with water. The water level in the jar is the reference, and the tube is the working end. Many have a hard time believing this works, but it does. Simple plug the end of the tube when not in use. The only down side to a water level is you either need enough tubing to cover the entire job site, or you will have to move your reference point closer to the work. It sounds like you may have to do that with a laser level anyway. From the above posts, I'm a little disappointed. I always thought I was missing out on a high-tech solution. Now, perhaps not so much.

The support towers of the bridge that connects the two halves of Michigan are farther apart at the top than at the bottom and that had to be calculated into the design due to the curvature of the earth.

BUT, unless your toy train track extends to several hundred feet (NOT scale but REAL 1:1 feet) in any one (1) direction, the variance in elevation is less than any accuracy you could possibly attain, even given the most expensive piece of technological equipment; water, LASER, GPS, Hectospectralspacialinteferrometer or Psychobabble Voodoo (sorry for being redundant). You just cannot pile dirt or pound stakes to any elevation resolution that any measurement method could give.

This is turning into a "Track power / Battery", "Sparky / Live Steam", "More Filling / Less Taste" argument!

We do need to limit grades on our toy train tracks, and most of us cannot do that by just looking at it because we are easily influenced by background shapes in our field of view. There are probably some folk that could level a track by simply standing back and saying, "Oooo, think I'll add some dirt ummm - there!" But, most of us will need some aid to doing it.

A water level will do it, but has some drawbacks (breakable glass is often involved, you have a hose to pull around without kinking, need to be careful of water loss as the parts are positioned, etc.)

Stretching a string with a Line Level on it will do, if you take into account string droop due to its own weight and that of the Line Level, and the error that induces.

A LASER level will do it, but it has drawbacks, too (Not easily seen in bright sunlight, difficult to verify the original level of the LASER in the first place, both of which can be somewhat overcome, but at an expense that most don't want to pay, etc.)

GPS hasn't been mentioned here, but it also would have drawbacks... (extreme lack of accuracy in inexpensive units, poor resolution measuring elevation, etc.)

As for Hectospectralspacialinteferrometer or Psychobabble Voodoo, well, I did apologize for being redundant.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The self-leveling lasers are not expensive any more. I got one for $37. Thus, no difficulty to verify original level, since it is self-leveling. If your thousands of dollars in track is not worth that, there's a miscalculation somewhere. 

I bought a more expensive one for about $150, but it can be used outdoors. 

Greg


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Aug 2010 02:49 PM 
The self-leveling lasers are not expensive any more. I got one for $37. Thus, no difficulty to verify original level, since it is self-leveling. If your thousands of dollars in track is not worth that, there's a miscalculation somewhere. 

I bought a more expensive one for about $150, but it can be used outdoors. 

Greg 

Just a question for you, Greg. I have used one self-leveling LASER Level (a friend's) and although it was exceedingly easy to set up, it was lousy for repeatability from one set up to the next.

Would you, when you have the time, set up yours and make a couple of marks someplace on a (generally unmoveable) object (building walls, etc.) where the LASER dot/line impinges. Preferably make the marks as far apart as possible and as far from the Level as possible (maybe 180 degrees apart and at least 20-ft from each other). Then put the LASER Level completely away, back in its case (if there is one) and on the shelf, and then (maybe the next day) once again get it out and set it up once more at the same place and see how close the LASER line is to the original marks? I realize that getting the unit back to the exact height from one setup to the next might be difficult, but if one mark is off by some small amount, is the other off by the same amount in the same direction?

The one I used was just a small cube that you set on a fairly level surface and let it sit for a few seconds, then pushed a button that turned on the LASER and a motor that spun the laser in the housing to shine the light radially perpendicular to the pull of gravity, i.e.: a level line would be drawn on all the walls of a room. When I first used it, I thought it was wonderful, but we didn't get done with our work the first day. The next day I set it up again on the same table and noted that the line was no longer on the same plane! It seems it would randomly spin in a circle whose axis was not parallel to the pull of gravity! In a 16'x32' room the line was off by 1/4 inch too low on one wall and a good 1/2 inch on the opposite wall. Just turning it off and back on didn't seem to induce this type of error, but putting it away overnight could really screw-up the result even if put back in the same place on the table. It also bothered me that the error was not symetrical, since the unit was in the center of the room.

Not only that, but the line was wide (a bit under 1/8"), which led to our having to make an agreement to use the "Top" edge of the line for the measurement point and it was so fuzzy/blurry that we could not get agreement on just where the actual "point" was to be marked. I saw the "edge" of the line to be higher than my friend did by a bit over 1/16".


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 09 Aug 2010 05:50 PM 
Posted By RimfireJim on 09 Aug 2010 05:36 PM 
...

A water level is extremely accurate, and has the advantage that it can go around blind curves and other line-of-sight obstacles that interfere with a laser level. The downsides that I found is that it almost requires two people, and you have to be very careful handling it to avoid spilling water. 

Del, are you just being funny with the "curvature of the earth" comment? How big of a garden railroad are you building?! 


Not a joke. I believe it is true isn't it? 

Doing the math, based on a mean radius of the earth of 3959 miles, the error in height you'd see between water level and line of sight over 100 feet is about 0.003 inches, the thickness of a piece of copier paper. Even over 1000 feet, the error is just under 0.3 inches. So yes, technically true, but not of any practical consequence.


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 10 Aug 2010 01:36 PM 

We do need to limit grades on our toy train tracks, and most of us cannot do that by just looking at it because we are easily influenced by background shapes in our field of view. There are probably some folk that could level a track by simply standing back and saying, "Oooo, think I'll add some dirt ummm - there!" But, most of us will need some aid to doing it.

A water level will do it, but has some drawbacks (breakable glass is often involved, you have a hose to pull around without kinking, need to be careful of water loss as the parts are positioned, etc.)

Stretching a string with a Line Level on it will do, if you take into account string droop due to its own weight and that of the Line Level, and the error that induces.

A LASER level will do it, but it has drawbacks, too (Not easily seen in bright sunlight, difficult to verify the original level of the LASER in the first place, both of which can be somewhat overcome, but at an expense that most don't want to pay, etc.)

GPS hasn't been mentioned here, but it also would have drawbacks... (extreme lack of accuracy in inexpensive units, poor resolution measuring elevation, etc.)

As for Hectospectralspacialinteferrometer or Psychobabble Voodoo, well, I did apologize for being redundant.









Very true about not being able to judge by eye. Our brains are easily fooled by misleading clues as to elevations and levelness. I had no idea one corner of my yard was over two feet lower than the diagonal corner until I shot it with my level. Yeah, I knew it was lower, but not by that much. It's basically a tilted plane, with no level indicators to judge it against.

Reasonable summary there, though there is no need whatsoever to have glass involved in a water level. Clear plastic tubing works just as well. The main accuracy limitation of most bubble levels is the device itself, not in how you use it - errors in mounting the vial in the frame and spacing of the lines on the vial vs. the bubble size. It's easy to check a level for true by flipping it end for end all four ways and seeing if you get the same indication on all vials. Unless you get lucky, you won't see that until you get to the higher priced models. Maybe not a big deal to some people and for some kinds of work, but if you want to be confident that your drain pipe is going to drain properly, for example, you should care. A laser detector solves much of the problem with the beam not being visible in sunlight (the laser level I borrowed didn't even have a visible beam) and is within the price reach of many.


I gotta get my hands on one of them Hectospectralspacialinterferometers! (Just for the record, I have[/i] used a laser interferometer at work, but not for my landscaping project!)


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I used the CST/Berger 57-LM800D Automatic Tri-Beam Self Leveling Hz & Vert. Rotary Laser Level with Detector for steel erection and the only problem was usually human error not the level. A tool is only as good as the person using it. 

I have on the other hand used a cheap level from sears not self leveling and set up correctly it is close enough for track work. Set up on a tripod worked great. 

So you can spend a $1000.00 or under $50.00 your choice if all you need is something more or less level go with a low priced one. Save your cash for Locomotive etc.


----------



## caferacer (Jul 22, 2010)

I did the right thing and purchased a laser level and markers for building my railroad went to night school to learn to use it correctly had a play in the yard and it works a treat can not wait till we are indoors marking out the railroad all 6 levels mine gives me distance and rise and fall in 1/29 scale which we had to program into it cafercaer


----------



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I used a self leveling laser, borrowed from a contractor friend, a Stanley I think. Over a distance of about 30 meters my layout is level to within half a laser dot, + or - 1/16". I tried to use a non self leveling laser but even with a very high end tripod that had a bubble level and fine screw adjustments over this distance it would show a difference of several inches before you could see any real change in the bubble. If you can't justify a decent laser then go to the hardware store and buy the water level kit that goes on the two ends of a hose, it works and it works well. Over a week of using it we put it in the same spot and checked it each day against a reference spot we marked the first day, it was spot on each and every day so I don’t know why there would be a problem with repeatability unless it is faulty or you don’t get it set up the same each time. I also tried it about 8 months later and it was still the same.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I never did get a laser level..I just made a better water level! 
(I have some photos..I will try to post them..) 

I never found any kind of "kit"..I just took an old piece of hose, cut it down to about 20 feet (anything longer and it kinked up too much).. 
got some clear plastic tubing who's outside diameter matched the hose's inside diameter..stuffed the clear tubing down inside the hose as far it would go (probably 2 or 3 inches) 
and its good to go! very low-tech, but its been working! 

I tried some hose connections on it originally, and attempted to attach the clear tubing to the hose with various fittings..no good..leaked badly.. 
just inserting the clear tube into the hose, no fittings, works so much better..no leaks at all.. 

Scot


----------



## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

A classic case of simpler can be better!


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When I started the NR&W a few years ago I use a laser level I got on E bay. 50 Bucks Came with Tripod. I made a concrete post out of some 8 inch squar cinder blocks. I plumbed and leveled the bocks when I filled them with concrete. . So when I set the laser level on it it was easy to level. And it was the same referance point. Worked well.


----------

