# Aster Challenger: You asked and we delivered



## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Someone asked for a video that showed its pulling power. Well, we could only trot out 58 cars -- all we had available -- but with a 1% uphill grade, I think that's a pretty awesome test. Hope you enjoy the new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6uXiyH7SLA

Oh, before anybody asks.... On Andrew Finegan's nice DH video, the black Challenger prototype was seen doing some serious slipping while pulling 9 UP passenger cars. Well, those cars still had their electrical lighting pickups on the trucks. So there were 18 axles doing some serious dragging. 

Ross Schlabach 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Why the cylinder cocks open all the time?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 25 Jan 2012 10:43 PM 
Why the cylinder cocks open all the time? 

Dan
I belive Ross explained in earler run of the Grey Challengger that it does not have the secondary fuel control and they opened the drain cocks to release excess stem. Looks pretty good as long as it does not effect the running I would say.
Great video Ross.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Alcohol doesn’t work like gas; you don’t turn the flow up and down to regulate the fire. To lower the fire in an alcohol burner with wicks you need to lower the wicks to lower the intensity the fire.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellent video. I like the spot early in the video when each engine slips a few revolutions in turn on the slippery spot at the top of the grade just before the turnout. The model has good footing and acts just like the prototype would on slippery rail. 

Great job, Hans. And Ross, thanks for the video. 

Best regards, 

Alan


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross
Any insight as to the "This locomotive has an additional metal sleeve around the boiler and this extra weight was put to good use." I am guessing it is not a stock piece with the kit. Is the sleeve on particular spots of the boiler (e.g. over the wheels) otherwise one would have to custom cut for areas like steam dome and safeties. How much weight and what is the metal?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Unlike the black model, this one does not have the full detailing but was used primarily to test model upgrades and exhibit the gray color scheme. It is a prodigious steam producer. Since the model did not have the secondary fuel flow control in the tender, it was not possible to regulate the fuel flow to limit pop-offs. For this reason, the drain cocks were left partially open for most of the filmed run. Fuel consumption was modest. The locomotive was pulling 40 cars without much effort but due to a light rain, no attempt was made to determine ultimate pulling power. Both this model and the black prototype will be on display at Diamondhead. 


Dan this is what I had referenced to. The above is a copy and paste of Ross's comments on the Challlenger.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

To keep it fair, (almost*)EVERY engine at diamondhead was slipping with less than average pulling weight, those tracks were VERY slippery, even with all the cleaning. 

My C-19 was losing traction on only 4 Accucraft passenger cars, I pull much more than that on my home track with no sign of slipping at all (I can even hear by how strong the chuff is when its approaching its maximum pulling power and it was not even close (even though I installed a chuffer there lol)). 

The challenger is a very impressive model, would you like to see a video with all the footage that got cut to see everything? (I will just put it all together for you in 1 large lump sum), I have more footage - I just didn't want my video to seem like it had too much challenger material in it lol.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By afinegan on 26 Jan 2012 08:32 AM 
To keep it fair, EVERY engine at diamondhead was slipping with less than average pulling weight, those tracks were VERY slippery, even with all the cleaning. 

My C-19 was losing traction on only 4 Accucraft passenger cars, I pull much more than that on my home track with no sign of slipping at all (I can even hear by how strong the chuff is, wither its coming close to pulling power (even though I installed a chuffer there lol)). 

The challenger is a very impressive model, would you like to see a video with all the footage that got cut to see everything? (I will just put it all together for you in 1 large lump sum), I have more footage - I just didn't want my video to seem like it had too much challenger material in it lol. 



Would love to see it Andrew. I do not mind watching longer videos when it is raining outside. Fire away.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

The little Accucraft B4 did not slip with Dan Fuller's train of 6 Aster Southern coaches..


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod, you are really enjoying that little engine, aren't you? It would almost fit in the pocket of a steamup apron. Excellent candidate for kitbashing. 

Larry


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Larry, 
It is a lovely little engine to run, and as you say "pocket size" . It "punches above it's weight".  But that grey Challenger is magnificent, in a class of it's own.

Rod


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Charles, I'm afraid I haven't got a good answer for you. Hans didn't have any reason -- or enough time before DH -- to open the gray one up. So we don't know the full shape, weiht or material although I would suspect steel. We can see the end of it just behind the rear drivers, and we expect it fits right above the drive wheels in some fashion. I'm guessing this will be left in the production models since it makes for good pulling power -- but I don't have any sayso in the matter. 

Dan, this locomotive has a very different burner assembly and needs some regulation of fuel flow to keep from making more stezm than is needed. The drain cocks were left open because it looked good and used up some of the excess steam that otherwise would have come out of the farting safeties! I like this solution better -- even though opening the cocks does reduce speed and pulling power somewhat. With any engine, closing the cocks will result in a speed increase and more power as all the steam works against the pistons. I know you are probably still not convinced, but if you saw the differences in performance and steam production between the black and gray models, you'd be a believer too. Since I guess this will be your next question, the burner is two rows of small wick tubes going into a rectangular feed tube below. This avoided starving of front wick tubes. And it makes steam like crazy. 

Ross Schlabach


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RP3 on 26 Jan 2012 03:28 PM 
Charles, I'm afraid I haven't got a good answer for you. Hans didn't have any reason -- or enough time before DH -- to open the gray one up. So we don't know the full shape, weiht or material although I would suspect steel. We can see the end of it just behind the rear drivers, and we expect it fits right above the drive wheels in some fashion. I'm guessing this will be left in the production models since it makes for good pulling power -- but I don't have any sayso in the matter. 

Dan, this locomotive has a very different burner assembly and needs some regulation of fuel flow to keep from making more stezm than is needed. The drain cocks were left open because it looked good and used up some of the excess steam that otherwise would have come out of the farting safeties! I like this solution better -- even though opening the cocks does reduce speed and pulling power somewhat. With any engine, closing the cocks will result in a speed increase and more power as all the steam works against the pistons. I know you are probably still not convinced, but if you saw the differences in performance and steam production between the black and gray models, you'd be a believer too. Since I guess this will be your next question, the burner is two rows of small wick tubes going into a rectangular feed tube below. This avoided starving of front wick tubes. And it makes steam like crazy. 

Ross Schlabach 

Thanks Ross for you explanation. I knew I was not complely out of it.
From what I see with the adition of the weight I hope that all the Challengers will have it. I would think the added weight in front would help.
I know that Jeff and Chuck have added weight to their Berkshires and it seems to help.
Thanks again for your video. Can hardly wait til this spring. or Sumer or whatever.
PM me witht he cost of making cases for the Challenger please.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is my video uncut with everything (except a second or 2 when jerry reshaw comes into view to meet the 500mb mark) about the 2 challengers (split up), even some shots of the floor, backsides of people and talking (lol)
I uploaded to Vimeo to see if the image has cleaned up (I have had good luck with vimeo, but I dont feel like paying for their plus account so im stuck to 500mb videos with them) - enjoy, nothing but challenger lol
Click on the link to watch in HD http://vimeo.com/35726390


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Andrew, you have a Challenger on order yet?


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By iceclimber on 26 Jan 2012 08:22 PM 
Andrew, you have a Challenger on order yet? 
Sure, send the check to aster and Ill pay you back, interest free, in 80 years, first payment 2092!

Such a deal!

(P.S. I see an aster kit in my future, I don't know when, but I just got another big raise switching jobs, if I keep this up it will happen - I am a young guy (32)! Till then, My little Lion will have to keep me satisfied in the Aster dept, got her running beautifully though!)


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Haha.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 26 Jan 2012 08:22 PM 
Andrew, you have a Challenger on order yet? 

Jeremiah
I believe it is too late to order it now.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

If you wanted one bad enough, I'm sure I could find you one.


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew
Excellent video with many familiar faces. Image quality was very good. Must check out Vimeo.

The only difficulty is should we take Black or should we take Grey? 

Andrew


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## k5pat (Jan 18, 2008)

Posted By AsterUK on 27 Jan 2012 04:34 AM 
Andrew
Excellent video with many familiar faces. Image quality was very good. Must check out Vimeo.

The only difficulty is should we take Black or should we take Grey? 




I had the black one on order, but when I saw that beautiful gray and black one I changed my order to gray. I believe I was the only one who did so at DH. Too late now to change, Hans has made the final cut at the end of DH.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

*Black for freight!*

*Grey for passenger!* 
If you run both you need two!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 27 Jan 2012 08:56 AM 
*Black for freight!*

*Grey for passenger!* 
If you run both you need two!


Are you an Aster dealer??? 
Well ... to be perfectly accurate. (bloody rivet counters)
The models, as per Aster USA site, are "as preserved condition".
In this condition, I believe that the grey one would NEVER have pulled a passenger train. 
But that's 'splitting hairs', and if you can afford one, you have the right to pull whatever you like!
Also, I have photos of black ones pulling passenger trains! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

David 
NEVER... as in this is NOT the correct paint scheme for the "in service" grey Challengers as used on the Portland Rose? 

One source says:

#3977 was one of 10 Challengers liveried in two-tone grey with yellow striping and lettering, fitted with "smoke lifters" and put into passenger service between Portland and Seattle, WA, as well as along the Columbia River to Huntington in 1946.The two tone livery was also applied to UP 4-8-4s and some Pacific and Mountain class locomotives hauling passenger trains on these divisions.


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## k5pat (Jan 18, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 27 Jan 2012 08:56 AM 
*Black for freight!*

*Grey for passenger!* 
If you run both you need two!


As has been said many times before: *"It's my engine and I'll pull whatever I want behind it"*[/i]


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 27 Jan 2012 03:16 PM 
David 
NEVER... as in this is NOT the correct paint scheme for the "in service" grey Challengers as used on the Portland Rose? 

One source says:

#3977 was one of 10 Challengers liveried in two-tone grey with yellow striping and lettering, fitted with "smoke lifters" and put into passenger service between Portland and Seattle, WA, as well as along the Columbia River to Huntington in 1946.The two tone livery was also applied to UP 4-8-4s and some Pacific and Mountain class locomotives hauling passenger trains on these divisions.





Hi Jim,
I am sure that the two tone grey paint job is correct for the 1946 - 1949 period that they were painted this way.
From what I can see, based on photos that I see in books, there were changes made to the tender in the 1950's which the model reflects, which is what makes it historically incorrect to pull a passenger train.
Again, only a small point for rivet counters! 
Mind you, I may be wrong, so if someone who knows their Challengers can correct me, then that is fine with me. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
p.s. Mind you, I do wish that UP had not painted the domes black!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

To supplement this discussion:


Of the 10 Challenger locomotives in the UP 3975-3984 series, at least nine locomotives (all except UP 3981) were painted to two-tone gray in 1946, apparently with yellow stripes and lettering.


Along with two-tone gray paint, all ten locomotives also received smoke lifters, known to UP as "wind wings", a new feature added after October 1945 and intended to keep smoke out of the cabs and away from the operating crews. (Two other Challengers, UP 3943 and 3967, also received wind wings in 1948, to test the concept on coal-burning locomotives assigned to freight service.)


The result of the photo research documented in the table below shows that few photos exist of UP 3979, 3980, and 3981 in two-tone gray paint. However, the video produced by Video Rails about UP's Challengers shows that UP 3977, 3979 and 3980 were indeed in two-tone gray paint, with yellow striping and lettering.


The 10 two-tone gray Challengers operated mostly in passenger service, but there are photos of the locomotives in freight service. All photos of the locomotives in two-tone gray show them in service on the Northwestern District, at least until they were displaced in 1950 by additional E7 and E8 diesel locomotives. At that time they were shopped, repainted black, and reassigned to Utah and Wyoming as helpers.


The passenger Challengers had been built as coal burners in 1943, and were converted to oil burners in 1945 specifically for passenger service on the Northwestern District (3977 was built in 1943, converted to oil in 1945). They remained as oil burners after being renumbered into the 3700 series and until retirement in 1958-1961.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i may be the last to notice, but happy to see the May target for delivery at Aster USA.
three more months of Top Ramen dinners and i just might make the payment deadline.


thinking ahead, with all the simultaneous Challenger builds that will be going on,
i wonder if it might not be prudent to devote a separate sub-forum to deal with the input(?)

just an idea.
cheers...gary


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Ramen noodles got me through college...a good deal in 1980 at 3 for a dollar...now they are 10 for a dollar! you should make it if you only spend a dollar every two weeks! two if you need lunch!


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