# Help with layout plan,Very much appreciated.



## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

Hello Fellow members,
I wonder if anyone can suggest a Layout planner IE A real person not a Piece of layout planning software? I am useless when it comes to even the simplest planning,I have looked but would rather find someone who could not only plan a very,very simple indoor shed layout,but also try to help me understand how things work? Afraid I have some problems in the cerebral area,which makes things very confusing, and is hellish frustrating,I require a lot of explanation before it sinks in so apologies all round.


My dear wife and her family are building a shed for my 60th in 2 weeks time (the birthday) not the shed completion! it will be provisionally approx 2 meters wide(will of course firm up the details nearer the time)

I am hoping it maybe in the region of 4 mtrs long? the idea is to run a simple Narrow gauge Gscale layout on 3 sides,utilizing at least 1 x shuttle service,and a couple of passing places,maybe a station halt?at the end will be Engine shed+Sidings.midway along a multi opening tunnel (IE now you see it (Train) now dont e.t.c.) all running on DCC either LGB or pikos offerings unless someone as alternative DCC System,as I do not wish to pay much for over sophisticated DCC with it only being a simple layout,but I thought **** lets have DCC anyway,offers interesting operation e.t.c.

The above is of course provisional plan

many thanks in advance
Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

4 x 2 meters wide and you want running on 3 sides. Assuming a layout shaped like a "C" then you still have issues, the top to bottom dimension will give you about 6' diameter curves maximum, but you use 4' diameter curves (about the tightest, worst case) with a 2 foot straight.

The left to right will use 8 foot if you have the minimum cutout of 2 feet, you have 4 meters so you can expand it a bit, or use a bit larger curves, but not by much, and the opening being 24 inches, is tight.

Basically you need to make the entire layout with the smallest diameter curves, 4' diameter LGB size R1.


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Superb Greg,Many thanks*

Good Evening from Norway or should that be morning as it is 00:44 21.09.

I wish to thank you so very much for your kindness with the example-design for the layout,wonderful!I was hoping that someone may offer something like you have Greg.

Afraid due to frustrating cerebral problems and associated confusion, doing even relatively simple things becomes a major chore!so i doubly thank you.

I thought it maybe a good idea to get some ideas moving before the shed is actually built? the size I gave is very approximate but the shape is correct
Not sure if the door will be on the wide side (4Metres) or The Short Side (2Metres) either way i hope to have 3 sides with track on ply or similar wood attached around the shed? not sure either as yet as to how deep the 3 sided shelving should be? I suppose 2 track width would be the limit.

I am really unsure how deep the two *Elkins & Cumberland* bits should be?
if the width is only 2mtrs? then maybe just runaround to dead ends IE one end a Loco shed + siding/s? and the other ends at buffer stop?
My origianl thought being setting up and end to end type shuttle,which I am more than happy to do if it will work ok

if you have any further advice/suggestions just let me know

best wishes Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just copied an example layout with those items existing.

So the first thing I would suggest is to see if the shed can be made larger. This will allow more sidings, larger curves, etc.

Do that investigation, and come back with the possibility of an increase in size.

Then we can take some track planning software and try some different arrangements.

Keep thinking and asking questions.

Regards, Greg


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Will keep in touch*

Good day Greg
Many thanks,once again for your most helpful reply, much obliged to you.
I will indeed keep you up to date with shed construction,which as it happens as not being finalized as yet? so theirs hope of larger,but not that much,i think.
also their will need to be space to move and space for other things,but am sure it can work.


best wishes Steve


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I know poster asked about 3 sides, however, one could use a removable track (bridge) at the door/entrance and just loop around the shed wall and then have several sidings for operations. this would also allow the use of LGB R2 curves which will allow a better look running around curves.


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*many thanks dan much obliged!*

Good Day Dan from Norway
Many thanks indeed for your kind reply,much appreciated.
yes a friend of mine as the same idea in his apartment you have to lft the girder bridge before entry to the room.Trouble is Dan I am very limited as to what i can achieve reasonably and do not think I can build such a layout,regrettably.

I think 3 sides will do it and i think it is more manageable? my brother in law knows nothing of Model railways,but will make the wooden shelves that will go around the shed,I suppose ply wood or some such.I hope you or Greg will be on hand to give me some pointers when it comes to laying the track e.t.c. I am not naturally dum!! but do have serious problems understanding things,which I tend to confuse,but on the plus side I can normally follow instruction (to a degree)?

What may appear simple to most folk(and is) is complex for me,so I need to be led by the hand a little. (1) preparing the wooden boards prior to track laying (2) ballasting the trackbed (3)Placing turn outs correctly (4)making electrical (DCC) connections,and so on....

Anyway I will come the time really appreciate help,maybe by a link like skype, or Google hello e.t.c. plenty of time to arrange

all the best Steve


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When indoors on plywood trains can make a lot of noise when track is mounted directly on wood.
An example of this is take a wind up music box and place it on different surfaces and you will find that on a wood surface there is a lot more sound.
Way to reduce this is to have some sort of roadbed (HO used cork).


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Good reply Dan*

Good ady Dan
Nice to hear from you again.Good point you make 
I was thinking of track on something and was aware of cork for smaller scales do they make it for G Scale? then I thought use a proses Ballast Spreader with track ballast glue or whatever? hopefully that should do it? what do you think DAN any better method

all the best Steve


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Steve - My "empire" is indoors. It is not built on plywood, but instead is built on an L-girder benchwork with a hardboard spline system to support the track. The splines are covered with vinyl Flexxbed and then the track is mounted and ballasted upon that. 

It is relatively quiet and I am quite pleased.

By the way I used the Anyrail design software. I first used the free version and then upgraded to the purchased version.

Mark


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Big Hello Mark*

Good Day Mark

Many thanks for your most helpful reply, much obliged to you.
I will look in deatil at your siggestions later, just wished to thank you now.It helps me so much,my layout will be 2 x tracks wide with passing place.approx 3.5 mtrs long on each side and approx 2mtrs wide at the top end so it will be end to end with shuttle , which >I quite like.
Mark will cork do almost the same job as Hardboard Spline system
Must keep this as easy as possible no major carpentry.

ANYRAIL, was the one track design software I looked at but my brain just refuse to take on board howits done? afraid its a burden I carry

Please keep the good ideas coming

best wishes Steve



> **** Habilis Steve - My "empire" is indoors. It is not built on plywood, but instead is built on an L-girder benchwork with a hardboard spline system to support the track. The splines are covered with vinyl Flexxbed and then the track is mounted and ballasted upon that.
> 
> It is relatively quiet and I am quite pleased.
> 
> ...


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Really Superb Links,Many thanks Mark*

Hello again Mark
Wish I ahd looked at your suggested links before replying erlier have just spent a very long time on the sites and wow they are brilliant,was not aware of any of them particularly liked the "FLEXBED" so much so I have asked them for samples and an approximate costing,as I think *flexbed* will be better than cork?
Likewise very impressed by *Sunset Valley Railroad* innovative products am sure i can use things from them also.
On the other hand maybe the following is a bridge to far,for me anyway?
*Masonite Spline Roadbed Curved roadbed without plywood leftovers

*Can just about see why folk may build using this method but I do not think my small layout warrants all the work? might be wrong,no matter am well please by all the fantastic help and advice I am receiving it really does lift my spirits

best wishes Steve


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Steve:

My layout is relatively small, it has six switches (points, turnouts) and an angled crossing. There is about 160 feet of track. I'm not heavily into operation (switching) and like to just let a train or two run so it meets my needs quite well.

I stayed away from cork roadbed since it has a habit of sort of decomposing or crumbling over time. I used to do HO scale years ago with cork (Atlas cork roadbed) and had that experience. Also, even with some type of sound deadening roadbed plywood sort of acts like a drum and will tend to amplify the sounds of the wheels. 

I stayed away from plywood and the "cookie-cutter" method as it is rather wasteful and difficult to handle large sheets since my layout it in the basement without very good access to move sheet goods into it. Other than cutting the hardboard into strips, it is just a matter of gluing them together with lots and lots of clamps.

I used Tom Miller's railroad as inspiration. While mine is nowhere near his, I am copying many of the basic construction techniques that he used. I purchased his DVD and watch it often, well worth price from my prespective.

Assuming that they haven't changed, my sample of Flexxbed was only about 2-3 inches in length. It was difficult to get a feel of how it would actually lay on the curves. While not impossible, it is rather resistant to bending even on my 8 foot diameter curves and took a significant effort to clamp and weight a section in position until the adhesive sets. 

Since I am R/C battery powered (RailBoss 4) and indoors I chose the SVRR aluminum rail with stainless steel switches. I painted the sides of the rail with a rust brown color before assembling the track. I am please with the overall effect.


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Inspiering stuff Mark*

Hello Mark
Once again a superb reply, really am much obliged to you, so many options and so much inspiration thank you for the link 


> I used Tom Miller's railroad as inspiration.


Simply superb!

I will certainly order *Flexxbed *especially after your description about using cork,unless something else exists? I assume i only need the *Flexxbed?
*and then lay the track upon it then use Bachman or Proses Ballast spreader,is this correct?

Regards Steve


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Steve:

I had also looked at a prefabricated homasote roadbed (originally from California Roadbed, now defunct) but didn't think it was to my liking and I was concerned about its ability to absorb moisture even though my basement stays dry with relatively steady humidity. Also, it's ability to be curved was pretty bad, at least in my opinion.

I am still testing which ballast I will use and its attachment method. I had not considered a ballast spreading device other than fingers and a brush. Considering how much track I have I don't think that a device would be of much use. Besides my railroad represents post-depression shortline logging so I'm not looking for something very uniform as one would see in more current time mainline track.

Mark


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Steve:

I forgot to mention that if I ever use Flexxbed again I would consider slicing is longitudinally so when bending it on curves it might be easier to do since it's only half the width. While I didn't try it, it might be something to consider. I can't imagine that the seam would be noticeable after laying the track and covering with ballast nor would it compromise anything such as sound deadening. 

Mark


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

Superb Mark
Many thanks once again for your two messages.
Both most helpful all this valuable information is being kept for future reference Mark.

My shed should not be to damp and will have humidifier and small heater maybe?

I understand that you would not like uniformed maintained track,but mine will be fine with Ballast spreader.being relatively modern European Narrow Gauge.

all the best Steve


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Steve, I got busy today. It's been raining here so I downloaded the newest AnyRail and had a fiddle with a design for your 4mtr x 2 mtr shed.
I know you wanted something simple running along 3 walls but I think a simple shuttle back and forth will get boring after a while so I adopted a design with passing loops so you can run the locomotive back to the other end of the train as they do on the prototypes for the return journey. 
The second design is a slight modification so you can later add a drop down section where the door is so you can have continuous running if you wish. As you can see there is not much main line between the two stations/ends so so continuous running will lengthen the run.
Large scale trains will gobble up space quickly especially in a space only 4mtr x 2 mtrs (13.3ft x 6.6ft). I'm glad your shed is no smaller! This will give you an idea of how much room things actually take up.
I managed to use mainly 'Train Line brand ' R2 turnouts because they are only a little longer but don't look as toy like as LGB R1 turnouts. The track work looks a lot smoother because of this.



















It is based on aproximately 24" wide baseboard along one side and a 14" one on the other.
The 24" wide baseboard could be built like a pair of simple benches. One with an integral lower work bench that extends under the layout and the other could have storage shelves underneath or whatever. The narrower 14" side could be made similar. The two ends only have to span about 42" between the two. The diagonal corners can just be stiff ply unsupported. There are probably a few different ways to go about it none of which are too overwhelming.

I made large images so you print them out and fiddle with them.
They are close to being accurate but I can get them perfect regarding clearances, siding lengths etc. when you have decided on a final plan.
The plan should give plenty of different running options like two trains running in opposite directions etc. 
All just food for thought at this stage. I hope this helps you with some ideas, perhaps with some parts removed to simplify. 

Andrew


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Simply Superb Andrew..can not thank you enough*

Good day Andrew
What can I say, very exciting and very impressive! Really am so very grateful to you, for all your help and encouragement.Both designs are fantastic and I will certainly use as a base for the layout,maybe not the bridge at the door though.I really am not able to build to that degree.Its no excuse I promise you.but I like the fact you used Trainline45 I was told it was better than LGB Brass track before somewhere?though I can e mistaken (often)



> It is based on aproximately 24" wide baseboard along one side and a 14" one on the other.
> The 24" wide baseboard could be built like a pair of simple benches. One with an integral lower work bench that extends under the layout and the other could have storage shelves underneath or whatever. The narrower 14" side could be made similar. The two ends only have to span about 42" between the two. The diagonal corners can just be stiff ply unsupported. There are probably a few different ways to go about it none of which are too overwhelming.





> I made large images so you print them out and fiddle with them.
> They are close to being accurate but I can get them perfect regarding clearances, siding lengths etc. when you have decided on a final plan.
> The plan should give plenty of different running options like two trains running in opposite directions etc.
> All just food for thought at this stage. I hope this helps you with some ideas, perhaps with some parts removed to simplify.


I love the idea of having several really interesting options to go at and I thank you for offering to tidy up the fine detail come the day1

I certainly had in min having a small work type bench underneath?not sure until later how high I should place the boards?

please keep these superb ideas coming

very many thanks Steve


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Steve, the idea behind the first 2 plans was a possible upgrade to a continuous loop if you decided to tackle it later without having to rip a lot of it up to change the trackwork. A drop down section at the door is not really that difficult to do. Just a couple of long strap hinges on a piece of 1/2" ply. Good to keep options open.

If you are sure you will never need a continuous run around perhaps the plan below would be better. There are now two passing sidings the main terminus. The one of the two can also be used as a long storage siding. Both loco shunting spurs are moved more to the front where they will not be as obstructed by parked cars. I have used more LGB R1 turnouts to save a little space and made the bottom passing siding at the other end a little longer too which could be also done on the first two plans.










Better with less uncoupler issues, longer siding and room for an engine shed. 










A few things to consider:
LGB stainz loco is about 10" long loop to loop.
LGB short 4 wheeled cars are 12". 
LGB ToyTrain cars are 10".
LGB V dumps are 7". 
The placement of uncouplers on the track may be difficult on some of the roads because of the position of turnouts.



Andrew


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## lgbman1 (Sep 13, 2016)

Good Day Andrew
Many thanks for explaining I understand now(I Hope)
I just love the plans, and think it will be far easier now we have these as the templates.and easier just to Finnish off the fine detail, once shed is built e.t.c.
I really can see for the very first time a real railway evolving and for this I thank you very much indeed

best wishes Steve


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