# What is Memorial Day? Lest we forget.....



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Memorial Day is another legacy of the Civil War. In 1868 Gen John Logan (from Illinois? I believe), at the time head of veterans affairs for the Grand Army of the Republic, created Decoration Day as a day in May when the survivors and families of those who died would decorate the graves of those who had fallen during the war. May was chosen as it was likely that flowers would be in bloom throughout the country by then. It was also a day of parades, speeches and reunions of surviving veterans of the Civil War. 

After WWI, Decoration Day was expanded to include soldiers who fell in all wars. Most Decoration Day celebrations were local affairs until 1971, when Congress declared Memorial Day a national holiday. The tradition has grown to decorate family graves as well as fallen soldiers. 

Take time this Memorial Day to say thanks to all who served, and a prayer for those who never made it home.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Veterans. Those that have served, and especially to those that have fallen. You are what has made this Country Great.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. 
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech. 
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. 
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, 
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag. 

- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 05/25/2008 11:31 AM 
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. 
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech. 
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. 
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, 
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag. 
- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC 

Sorry, Father O'Brian, this just is not true. Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? The Federalist? The Constitution? It's very clear--the rights the US was established to protect are described as inalienable rights, they come from god, not from soldiers. No soldier "gave me" freedom of speech. We have freedom of speech--and if you follow this you will see the sense of it--because it is part of our essence. Opinions are part of what we are. I cannot _not_ have an opinion. By my very nature, and yours, we have opinions. You can silence me, stop me from voicing my opinion, but the right of human beings to an opinion comes from the fact that they have, by their very nature, opinions. That's why it's tyranical and unjust to suppress that right. You can silence someone, but you cannot alienate him from his right to an opinion. It's the way rights are set up in our society. 
Think of it this way: you can kill me, but you cannot take away my right to life. That's why killing is unjust. You can gag someone, but you cannot take away his right to a opinion. If you do, you're a tyrant and should be resisted. 
If a soldier "gave me" my rights then a soldier could take them away. There would be no foundation to freedom other than some general's willingness to allow you or me to speak. That's a profoundly un-american idea. 
Our political system is based on this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." They are self evident and inalienable--they don't come from soldiers or politicians. 
Soldiers, obviously, deserve all honor for their service to their country and their willingness to protect it. But they do not give us our rights.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry, Father O'Brian, this just is not true. Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? The Federalist? The Constitution? It's very clear--the rights the US was established to protect are described as inalienable rights, they come from god, not from soldiers. No soldier "gave me" freedom of speech. We have freedom of speech--and if you follow this you will see the sense of it--because it is part of our essence. Opinions are part of what we are. I cannot not have an opinion. By my very nature, and yours, we have opinions. You can silence me, stop me from voicing my opinion, but the right of human beings to an opinion comes from the fact that they have, by their very nature, opinions. That's why it's tyranical and unjust to suppress that right. You can silence someone, but you cannot alienate him from his right to an opinion. It's the way rights are set up in our society. Think of it this way: you can kill me, but you cannot take away my right to life. That's why killing is unjust. You can gag someone, but you cannot take away his right to a opinion. If you do, you're a tyrant and should be resisted. 
If a soldier "gave me" my rights then a soldier could take them away. There would be no foundation to freedom other than some general's willingness to allow you or me to speak. That's a profoundly un-american idea. 
Our political system is based on the this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." They are self evident and inalienable--they don't come from soldiers or politicians. 
Soldiers, Obviously, deserve all honor for thier service to their country and their willingess to protect it. But they do not give us our rights.

Have you never read how a soldier takes a oath to uphold the values and thruths of the very Constitution that you speak of. The "Constitution" may not have been written by soldiers, but soldiers are the ones that have gone to battle risking their lives so that we can have the pleasure to live under its "Inalienable" rights. If a U.S. soldier has taken this oath, why (especially on Memorial Day weekend) would you doubt his trust?? I know, you can dig into your books (or watch CNN) and tell stories about the few bad ones, but for every bad soldier their have been hundreds of thousands of good ones. Yes, all men are created equal.......But the U.S. soldier has been the one to shed their blood to uphold (by oath) this grandest of documents. 
And, thank you - Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC...... YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE CORRECT!!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If you can find somewhere in my statement where I criticized soldiers, doubted their willingness to defend the constitution, or minimized their sacrifice I'd like to see it.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes things do not need to be spoken to ring loud and clear.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 05/25/2008 5:52 PM 
Posted By Torby on 05/25/2008 11:31 AM 
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. 
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech. 
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. 
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, 
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag. 
- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC 

Sorry, Father O'Brian, this just is not true. ... No soldier "gave me" freedom of speech. ... I cannot _not_ have an opinion. By my very nature, and yours, we have opinions. You can silence me, stop me from voicing my opinion, but the right of human beings to an opinion comes from the fact that they have, by their very nature, opinions. That's why it's tyranical and unjust to suppress that right. You can silence someone, but you cannot alienate him from his right to an opinion. It's the way rights are set up in our society. 
Think of it this way: you can kill me, but you cannot take away my right to life. That's why killing is unjust. You can gag someone, but you cannot take away his right to a opinion. If you do, you're a tyrant and should be resisted. 
If a soldier "gave me" my rights then a soldier could take them away. There would be no foundation to freedom other than some general's willingness to allow you or me to speak. That's a profoundly un-american idea. 
Our political system is based on this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." They are self evident and inalienable--they don't come from soldiers or politicians. 
Soldiers, obviously, deserve all honor for their service to their country and their willingness to protect it. But they do not give us our rights.

\ 
Okay, I'm tired of cutting out the guano, so I'll say it a clearly as I can: 

Yeah, your diddling with semantics is correct, the soldier does not "give" you your intercoursing rights, but that same soldier 
DOES protect your right to express that right/opinion/etc. 

Try taking the context of the message for what it is, not what you can intercoursing read into it... 

Too bad the forum rules preclude me from calling you what I think you are... 

Yeah, I'm pizzed off!!!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Ditto Duncan! 
Vietnam Combat Vet 
U.S. Army 
9th INF DIV 
Mekong Delta 1966-67


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. Lownote. Thank you for proving my point about "MOST" College professors a couple of threads back.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Duncan and Steve! 
I have had enough of the so called experts also. My Military Ancestory goes back to 1777 from the battle of Momouth NJ to Yorktown. My own is 23 years and two tours in RVN. 
Actually 1 and 1/2. They stopped the war before we could win it back from Walter Commie Cronkite and Rather Dan who were better military stratrigist than all the generals and directly lost us the war with post TET 68 (Yes I was there) comments. Comments for which they should have been shot! Yes Jefferson,Madison, et al gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights but Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen have ALWAYS stepped up to assure it longevity. I took an oath of office as a young 2LT in 66 to "Uphold and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies Forigen and Domestic." I am getting damned tired of the "domestic" enemies of the Constitution and I too am pizzed. 
George N. Crawford (Noel) 
President Sons of the American Revolution Cecil County Maryland 
LTC Retired 
PS Dwight..Go ahead and kill this if you wish, I have had my say. 
Noel


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You guy are really knee-jerk 

Did you see where I wrote this: 

"Soldiers, obviously, deserve all honor for their service to their country and their willingness to protect it." 

It's an obvious point, I affirmed it. I affirm it again now. There is no criticism of soldiers in my post--none, zero. I have nothing but high regard from America's veterans. 

How dare I invoke the Constitution and the declaration of Independence on Memorial day! What kind of a monster does that? What kind of person invokes the documents the soldier takes an oath to? 

Do you all know the story of George Washington at Newburgh? It's a very good Memorial Day story. Washington is camped at Newburgh in NY, on the Hudson River. It's near the end of the Rev. War and it's looking better for the US then it has, but it's a still a very dicey proposition. Washington has been constantly asking the Continental Congress for more supplies, for more men and gotten what seems like practically nothing. At Newburgh his officers approached him and said that he should march to Philadelphia and seize control of the government. We, they argued, have laid down our lives and treasure for the cause. We are the ones who paid the highest price. We should seize power ourselves and make you our leader. 


Washington refused. He came out before his officers and started to read a speech, but he could not see it, and he stopped and put on glasses. He said "Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country." He went on to say that their cause was greater cause than power, it was the cause of rights. Washington refused imperial titles based on his military service--he submitted him self to the democratic principle of rights. Look it up--Washington at Newburgh. This is what made Washington a great man. His ifficers at Newburgh wept and gave up their plan to destroy the fledgling democracy. 


Washington, unlike you people, understood that the rights he was fighting for were not given or taken away by soldiers--that they were a different way and new way of understanding rights, a revolutionary way. Washington, our first president, part of the generation that wrote the declaration and the constitution, understood that he as a soldier did not give the people their rights, he protected the exercise of those rights from tyrants. 

What a sad decline that you can wave the flag and not understand what it was established for. What a pathetic thing that invoking the Declaration if Independence provokes outrage! 

Tomorrow I'll be at a retirement home for military veterans, mostly flag level officers. I'll be thanking them for their service. They understand the meaning of the oath they took and the rights it protects.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

I know the story of General George Washington at Newburgh. 
I understand it VERY well. 

And that is why every Military person since has sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution and not follow those would overthrow it such as Burr and others. I could tell you a story on the day Nixon stepped down that would or should chill your blood, but because of the Honor and Dedication of the Soldiers , it did not happen. And yes I was there. 
The system does work, but it has taken the sacrifice and courage of our Military through the years to make it so. 
If you can read this in Freedom and without fear thank a soldier. 
If you can read it in English, thank a teacher. 
Enough! 
Noel


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By livesteam5629 on 05/25/2008 7:04 PM

If you can read this in Freedom and without fear thank a soldier. 
If you can read it in English, thank a teacher. 
Enough! 
Noel




Already have, always do. I said absolutely nothing critical of veterans or soldiers--absolutely nothing. I only pointed out that the good Father O'Brian of the USMC was wrong to say that we get our rights from soldiers. Yes, the oath all soldiers take comes from Washington as example. The US military's willingness to submit to the principle or democratic, civilian control is one of the great triumphs of America 

It might interest you--though I doubt any of you would believe it matters--to know that I also took an oath to uphold the Constitution when I became a teacher. Actually understanding the nature of our rights and their origins, to me, is a crucial part of upholding that oath. 

What could possibly be wrong with talking about the Constitution, and the nature of our rights,the rights soldiers fought and died for, on Memorial day?


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 05/25/2008 5:52 PM 
Posted By Torby on 05/25/2008 11:31 AM 
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. 
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech. 
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. 
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, 
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag. 
- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC 

Sorry, Father O'Brian, this just is not true. Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? The Federalist? The Constitution? It's very clear--the rights the US was established to protect are described as inalienable rights, they come from god, not from soldiers. No soldier "gave me" freedom of speech. We have freedom of speech--and if you follow this you will see the sense of it--because it is part of our essence. Opinions are part of what we are. I cannot _not_ have an opinion. By my very nature, and yours, we have opinions. You can silence me, stop me from voicing my opinion, but the right of human beings to an opinion comes from the fact that they have, by their very nature, opinions. That's why it's tyranical and unjust to suppress that right. You can silence someone, but you cannot alienate him from his right to an opinion. It's the way rights are set up in our society. 
Think of it this way: you can kill me, but you cannot take away my right to life. That's why killing is unjust. You can gag someone, but you cannot take away his right to a opinion. If you do, you're a tyrant and should be resisted. 
If a soldier "gave me" my rights then a soldier could take them away. There would be no foundation to freedom other than some general's willingness to allow you or me to speak. That's a profoundly un-american idea. 
Our political system is based on this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." They are self evident and inalienable--they don't come from soldiers or politicians. 
Soldiers, obviously, deserve all honor for their service to their country and their willingness to protect it. But they do not give us our rights.

Since no one has said it yet....Thank you Tom for the post. After that quote....Not much more could or should have been said, especially to the contrary./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 

Lownote, how does someone respond to what you have said without it sounding personal, not to mention starting something in a thread that is meant to honor and not dis-honor the memory of those that have fallen. There really is no way. It's great to have an opinion and believe me I sure do exercise mine wrong or right. Yet in this case the best point to make would be the one not made. I can't believe what I have read. 
It is men that designed our system and although they were deeply convicted and devout in their religious beliefs they were still men. It was those men that organized a militia of men to fight for those rights. It was also the militia of men that was sent to deny us of those rights and beliefs. It was only through the perseverance and unselfish sacrifice that we were, are and will continue to be able to exercise those rights. Without the military or the soldiers and their true devotion to their beliefs and oath, their unselfishness and willingness to die for those beliefs, then we will loose that Freedom. If the freedoms and rights we enjoy and sometimes abuse were truly "Unalienable" and did come from God directly then all human beings on this planet would enjoy them. Yet I guess that in the true "Spirit" they could be considered God given since as humans we have always sought freedom and what freedoms we have today. Especially since though out history there has been a battle between the Armies of men to secure or deny those rights. It may be in our nature to seek these rights but it is also in our nature to seek power and power over others. This is as undeniable as the air we need to breathe. Until human beings loose their desire for power over others there will always need to be the militia to defend the freedoms and beliefs we have. The "ideal" that is this country may not last forever yet it would be nice to think it could. Unfortunately it is when people of a society have thoughts like this or display actions which diminish the importance of a militia and the slighting of their sacrifice, that can and will be more damaging to that freedom than any conquering army or tyrant. So in every essence....what Father Dennis Edward O'Brian said is true.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Look I have said absolutely nothing critical of soldiers or veterans. I do not understand why any of you think I did. 

How about this--while American soldiers are fighting in the Rev. War--a very very tough slog--Ben Franklin, who never was a soldier, was over in France convincing the King--the King!--of France to bankroll a war against the very principle of monarchy, and in favor of universal human rights. Without Franklin's efforts, the Revolutionary War would have been lost--no doubt about it. Do my rights then come from Franklin? 

Well sure, partly yes. But Franklin never thought he was giving people their rights. He thought he was helping them secure the exercise of rights they already had, because they were born with inalienable, universal human rights. 

You think I'm splitting hairs or engaging in semantics. But it matters where you think rights come from, it matters a lot. If you think rights are given to you by soldiers, then you have no rights other than those the soldiers choose to give you, and soldiers, should they wish, could take them away. American soldiers never have. 

But if you think your rights are inalienable and god-given, which is what it says in our founding documents, than you have them whether their are soldiers or not. You cannot exercise those rights, enjoy those rights--without defense from tyrants. So once again, all thanks to those serving and to veterans for their sacrifice and their service in the defense of those universal human rights which the US was founded on. 

And once agian, I have said absolutely nothing dishonoring american veterans or soldiers--absolutely nothing. There is not a single word of criticism of American soldiers in anything I said, I have only praise for their service and their memory.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Washington DC today is full guys on big motorcyles, the rolling thunder guys--10,000 or more. A lot of them fly the flag from their bikes. To me, that's a disgrace. The flag is a national symbol--there are proper ways to treat it. My wife, who grew up on Marine bases, is particularly disgusted. The flag should go up at sunrise and down at sunset, unless it's illuminated; it should be properly folded when it's down. While it goes up, activity stops, and while it goes down, activity stops. It's a sacred symbol, not a bumper sticker, not a decoration for your radio antenna. And because it's a sacred symbol, it should be flown with care and thought, not carelessly and in a slipshod way. 


The title of this thread is "What is memorial day--Lest we forget." I don't care if you all hate me, to me it's crucial that we not forget what the rights we celebrate are all about, that we not forget or fail to ever understand the nature of the rights men sacrificed and died for. So I will tell you now--the best way for me to memorialize the deaths and service of veterans is to fully understand what they fought and died for. Or should I just drive around on a hog with a flag on a spring?


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

You know Lownote, you keep proving why kids keep graduating from College with little common sense. This is not the time (Memorial Day Weekend) to philosophize with you through your typical "College Professor" thoughts. We are not College kids scared to disagree with a Professors diatribe, or be flunked. We are not afraid to call you out on this and your over educated arrogance.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 05/25/2008 7:52 PM
You know Lownote, you keep proving why kids keep graduating from College with little common sense. This is not the time (Memorial Day Weekend) to philosophize with you through your typical "College Professor" thoughts. 




When is the time, SteveS?


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

When is the time, SteveS? 

Well Lownote, COMMON SENSE would tell you: 
Not on Memorial Day Weekend 
Not on a thread meant to be thankfull to those that have paid the ultimate sacrafice for the U.S. 
Not on a thread not meant to get into "your" deep thinking 
and, not on a thread were everyone else knows exactly what I mean but you.............. 
But you see, this takes common sense. This is something that I have learned through the years that people who think that they are "more educated" then the rest............seem to lack.


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## BigDigger (Jan 3, 2008)

Lownote, 
Thanks for the history lesson and the note on flag ettiquette, we are so honored to have your great knowledge and the ability to express it, now to get back to the matter at hand.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

And Lownote, you are correct about one thing. The way that the Flag is flown. But, unfortunatley things like this are no longer taught in our schools. You know, its politicaly incorrect. But the matter is that these folks are flying Old Glory out of pride to be an American. Cut them some slack.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm almost ashamed to have started this thread. Is this what our nation is reduced to? Bickering over trivial stuff? 

Say thanks to a living veteran, say a prayer (to whatever diety you choose) for those who have given all , or for one lousy day.... stick a sock in it


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

"Trivial stuff?" Trivial stuff? ?????!!??? What is more important than understanding our rights. There's absolutely nothing trivial about it. It's crucial, it's patriotic. 

This really is very puzzling--so on memorial day, the day set aside to remember the soldiers who gave their lives defending the country--we are not supposed to think about or talk about them meaning of what they died for--that's not "the matter at hand? If not on memorial day, then when? 

It seems to me that by knowing about the meaning of our country's founding principles, I honor the sacrifice of those who died to help maintain them. It seems like a really obvious, common sense point. 

Steve S. I'm really sorry my profession is so irksome to you. I'm sorry also that you find talk about rights so threatening and disturbing. I'm sorry that being reminded about flag ettiquette on memorial day is offensive--sorry, and extremely surprised. If you aren't going to remember flag etiquette on memorial day, when will you remember it? Never, I guess. If talk about rights is "trivial" on memorial day, then the celebration is pretty empty 


This whole thread makes me sad, really. I love a thoughtful discussion about American history, but there's little interest, it seems, in actually remembering what our country stands for, and only interest in shouting down or cursing other opinions. 
Consider me shouted down--I'm going to bed and probably won't post here again 


But once again, thanks to all vets for their service to their country and their willingness to fight and die for the inalienable rights which they did not give us, but which they fought with courage and honor to protect


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

As MIK said, please put a sock in it!!!!!


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 05/25/2008 6:54 PM
You guy are really knee-jerk 
... 
Washington, unlike you people, understood that the rights he was fighting for were not given or taken away by soldiers--that they were a different way and new way of understanding rights, a revolutionary way. Washington, our first president, part of the generation that wrote the declaration and the constitution, understood that he as a soldier did not give the people their rights, he protected the exercise of those rights from tyrants. 
What a sad decline that you can wave the flag and not understand what it was established for. What a pathetic thing that invoking the Declaration if Independence provokes outrage! 
Tomorrow I'll be at a retirement home for military veterans, mostly flag level officers. I'll be thanking them for their service. They understand the meaning of the oath they took and the rights it protects.




Yeah, but at least we have the "knee" part to hang on to, unike some... 

Believe me, I fully understand my unalienable rights, and will exercise them as I see fit. That includes calling people up short who elect to start a contentious discussion over a person's selection of words to convey an ideal or concept. 

Let's try substituting the word(s) "protect(s)" for "give(s)" in the original. A literal reading is not always required of all things. Try looking for the "implied intention to refelct" in a piece that is given as a recognition of things gone by. 

Never said you were besmirching the sevice give and sacrifices made by our soldiers. Your implication that they had nothing to do with your rights (by selectively stating that they did *not* provide or give these rights), and not acknowledging that these same soldiers were instrumental ensuring your freedom to practice those rights, is what I found offensive. 

And then you have the temerity to wrap yourself up in your own cloak of patriotism... 

Instead of spending the day with flag level officers, might I suggest that you spend some time with the veterans who stood between you and the ordnance of our enemies...


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

For crying out loud. Seems I can't take my eyes off this place for even a few hours lately.







Let it go gents.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 05/25/2008 8:29 PM
"Trivial stuff?" Trivial stuff? ?????!!??? What is more important than understanding our rights. There's absolutely nothing trivial about it. It's crucial, it's patriotic. 




Yes, trivial..... If someone gets a few details wrong does that make them love their country any less? I sometimes get rather irritated with those scoundrels who wrap themselves in the flag as an excuse for their actions, those who act like they are "more equal" than the rest of us, and those who are "obnoxious ********".... BUT we are ALL still Americans. 

Can't have one day when we forget our differences?


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

This is beginning to get "personal" and that has no place in a thread about Memorial Day! 

It would be a shame to have this thread "locked" because someone has to "prove a point". 

Jim Francis, Moderator


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

PostedBy lownote 

Sorry, Father O'Brian, this just is not true. Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? The Federalist? The Constitution? It's very clear--the rights the US was established to protect are described as inalienable rights, they come from god, not from soldiers. No soldier "gave me" freedom of speech. We have freedom of speech--and if you follow this you will see the sense of it--because it is part of our essence. Opinions are part of what we are. I cannot _not_ have an opinion. By my very nature, and yours, we have opinions. You can silence me, stop me from voicing my opinion, but the right of human beings to an opinion comes from the fact that they have, by their very nature, opinions. That's why it's tyranical and unjust to suppress that right. You can silence someone, but you cannot alienate him from his right to an opinion. It's the way rights are set up in our society. Think of it this way: you can kill me, but you cannot take away my right to life. That's why killing is unjust. You can gag someone, but you cannot take away his right to a opinion. If you do, you're a tyrant and should be resisted. If a soldier "gave me" my rights then a soldier could take them away. There would be no foundation to freedom other than some general's willingness to allow you or me to speak. That's a profoundly un-american idea. Our political system is based on this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." They are self evident and inalienable--they don't come from soldiers or politicians. Soldiers, obviously, deserve all honor for their service to their country and their willingness to protect it. But they do not give us our rights.



I have to respectfully disagree with you. I'll try to hit my points right away, since I have a tendency to post disjointedly. 
It really is because of the soldier, more appropriately the American Citizen-Soldier, that we have our rights today. Yes, these rights ARE inalienable, but the sole reason we are able to _exercise_ these rights is because of the American Citizen-Soldier.


You can voice any opinion you want; you can publish anything you want; you can think any way you want to think...BUT, being able to share these with others requires a structured system that allows/encourages individuals to do so. This structured system is ONLY guaranteed by force of arms, by the sacrifices of our Citizen-Soldiers, as there are countless entities that have tried to take this structured system away from us. It is easy to voice your opinion in our system of government, as your ability and right to are both guaranteed and implemented by the Citizen-Soldier. You wouldn't be able to do this in 75% of the other countries in the world. Not in Russia, not in China, not in Zimbabwe, not in Venezuela....in 75% of the world's other countries, you most definitely would NOT be able to say or do any of the things you mention in your post. Instead, you would be jailed, tortured, and possibly worse.


It is a basic tenet of human nature, that when you have something coveted by others, those others will do anything to take that coveted object away from you. It is only because of the moral courage of fellow citizens willing to take up arms against the Crown that our Founding Fathers moved forth with the Declaration of Independence; without the knowledge that they had this force of arms at their disposal to challenge KG's armies, our independence would have been stillborn. 
You can publish all the papers you want, but until you have a dedicated force of armed citizens willing to use force to guarantee the freedom necessary to publish those papers, then those papers are all worthless. The Citizen-Soldiers are necessary to IMPLEMENT and GUARANTEE freedom.


Your ability to voice a contrary opinion is only because of the Citizen-Soldier; you know you can voice your opinion without fear of reprisal since you know the Citizen-Soldier or Police will step in to ensure your rights are not infringed. If you are retaliated against and suffer physical/financial harm, once again you are guaranteed the right of retribution through legal (read: peaceful) means by the Citizen-Soldier and Police. The Citizen-Soldiers and Police are the primary maintainers and defenders of our system of government and legal system. Argue all you want, but all that come out are WORDS. Words don't guarantee anything, but DEEDS do.


Example: After 7 years in the Marine Corps, I have been a law enforcement officer for the past 15+ years. We try to encourage crooks and bad guys to give up peacefully without a fight...but when they don't, what then? You can file all the legal motions you want, you can write all the negative newspaper editorials all you want, but those won't make the bad guys give up without a fight. Then the only thing you can do is to Man Up and go get the bad guys. Neville Chamberlain found out the hard way that a piece of paper was not enough to prevent WW2 from starting.


And yes, I use the term "Citizen-Soldier" with great reverence, as it is most appropriate. Even though our Armed Forces are truly professional, they are still Citizen-Soldiers, dedicated to defending our system of government and the will of the people. We are not Spartans, brought up from birth to be warriors; the working conditions and pay are lousy, and the retirement is constantly being chipped away at by Congress (I know, as my father retired from the US Navy). The Citizen-Soldiers volunteer (or accept conscription as in the past) because they know that if they don't do it, then WHO WILL? We do it because we know that NOBODY else in this world will do it for us. We don't do it for fame, we don't do it for money, we don't do it for the extended longevity it will give us...we do it because if we don't, who will?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, maybe this will be usefull.


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## kfrankl3 (Feb 27, 2008)

Can we not agree to disagree? What one should remember that this thread is not of politics or disagreements? This thread is here for the same reason that Memorial Day is. It was created to remind us that we are here only for the blood shed by our brethren. 





_

We should remember those who went forward in the cold dark,



We should remember those who sailed forth,



We should remember those who touched the heavens.



Those who went foward when all went back,



Those who never knew life,



And those who never came back,



It is from them, that we are here.
_ 



I would like to say that I am not trying to insult either argument but rather asking that it be acknowledged that neither will agree, and we should rather look to why this thread and this day is here.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

When you are talking about honoring the men and women that gave up their lives for this country, it's hard to agree to dissagree. Especially when only 1% dissagrees.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I was a Lowes Motor Speedway today for the Coca Cola 600, (wife won tickets) the package includes a hospitality suit, food and goodies. I was chatting with one of the reps, and was telling him about working in the garage and pits at Pocono back 30 years ago. He then made a phone call, came back over and asked if we would like a tour thru the garage area. cool. On the way back along pit row, there were several hundred Soldiers. they were part of the Memorial Day Event. As we walked past last few pit stalls we went right past them, as I walked by I turned and said "Thanks Guys" about 3 dozen that heard me turned, some said your welcome, some waved and some said thanks back, why they were thanking me I don't know. My guess is becuase I took a second to acknolege them. After we continued walking a bit further, my wife said "it took me a few seconds to figure out why you were thanking them" LEST WE FORGET, with out them ... Is something I would rather not have to think about.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff, thats a awesome story. Thanks for sharing it.


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## Guest (May 26, 2008)

I'm almost ashamed to have started this thread.

don't be. 

lownote, 
i am just a stupid school-dropout, but i think, you mix up two things: 
the right to have an opinion, and the right to express an opinion. 
the first is inalienable, but it helps less than cowdung. the second one has to be fought for. by oneself, or by delegates - soldiers and policemen. 
------ 
i was on duty the last two days, so i read this thread not bit by bit, but as a whole. 
it affirms my thoughts about you yankees.... 

i don't like or understand everything US, but i really like, how you as a nation are ready to honour those, who as soldiers, firefighters or policemen sacrifice their lives for their next. 
congratulations, that you remember your heroes! 

korm 
.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This will be my last post on the subject, I promise. 

http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/westover/rights.html


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote, I do not question if you are Patriotic or have love for your Country (I know that you do) I have just not understood why, (ON THIS THREAD), you choose to disect and put under a microscope what Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC said. It does not matter (ON THIS THREAD) if God, Kings, Dictators, Society, etc., has given us our rights. Even if you think he is wrong, I know you understand his message. Their is a time and place for everything...........calling him out here is not the correct place. If you still dissagree with what I have just said after reading all that you have stirred up.............well then, you are just being hard headed.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Enough. Some of you guys just don't know when to shut up and let it go. Having to lock a thread about honoring Memorial Day *ON* Memorial Day is distasteful in the extreme, but since there seems to be no other way to stop the bickering, so be it.


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