# What are the largest garden railroad layouts?



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at the pictures of the Fairplex in Pomona from this last weekend's running and knowing that the Fairplex has been called "The Grand Daddy of Them All" (which could be construed as a reference to it's size), I began to wonder: what are the largest garden railroads in the country? Is the Fairplex the largest? Where does Marty's North Table Creek Garden RR stack up? Or how about Jens Bang's layout? How about that layout in Alaska or some of the beauties back east? Let's hear from the membership!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think Dennis Sirrine layout in Mesa, AZ would fall right in there also. Later RJD


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Private or public?

Fairplex is 100 x 300 or about 0.69 acre.

As for private people, Roger Clarkson has a 1/3 acre garden railroad as well as a 3-car garage H0 layout. Roger probably has the largest private layout in So Cal.


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Another good way to measure is mileage. Fairplex has just over 8000 feet as I recall. Not all is connected to the 4 mainlines, and in my humble opinion , a few feet less overall would be nice.... 

Jonathan/EMw


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Good point. If anyone knows the outside dimensions of the layout, how many independent lines and how much trackage (I would say that one would have to have 1000+ feet just to make the list.) It's not really a contest and I don't care if it's public or private (but it would be helpful to at least let us know which!) _This is just for fun!! _I know there have been some really cool layouts that have hosted train meets with multiple operators. We have some really great threads here on MLS about 4 or 5 of them throughout the year!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The railroad the Rick the Railroad Guy is pretty darn big. Need to get the track length, it's probably on a web site somewhere. 

Regards, Greg


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## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a quote from a YouTube video of Rick's layout. 

"_December 06, 2008 — A lap around the largest garden railroad in the world! This is the dynamite rio verde and eastern railroad located in Scottsdale, AZ. It is the largest in the sense that It has the longest mainline: 1,252 feet (x2), and it sits on the most land: 3 acres. It has over 3,800 feet of track total, but there is another that has over 4,000 so it loses in that category."_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H6JGTtkoNk&feature=related

That's big.
Wesley


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

You can see all three videos of Marty's Mainline Tracks from our new video screen in the bottom right hand corner of my website @ www.cordlessrenovations.com 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Clarkson's note _over 3,000 feet of track_.


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

I seem to remember Dennis Serrine's layout being 3700 ft of track, before he expanded into the next yard. I would still rank him at the top of anything outdoors that I have heard of or seen. 
Paul


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

As I say in my clinic, theres always someone bigger. 
On a personal note, What is the largest layout built and maintained by the owner? 
Most large layouts are down south, up this way you will GO CRAZY fighting weeds with this rainy year......


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 10 Jun 2010 05:06 PM 
Looking at the pictures of the Fairplex in Pomona from this last weekend's running and knowing that the Fairplex has been called "The Grand Daddy of Them All" (which could be construed as a reference to it's size), I began to wonder: what are the largest garden railroads in the country? Is the Fairplex the largest? Where does Marty's North Table Creek Garden RR stack up? Or how about Jens Bang's layout? How about that layout in Alaska or some of the beauties back east? Let's hear from the membership!


Hi Steve,

I would suggest that you might include the definitions of interesting and multi-party accessible. A layout can be large but not particularly interesting for visitors and sometimes a layout can be interesting but inaccessible to multiple visitors.

Then too I have seen some very nice layouts where nobody was allowed to touch anything. Going on a Garden Railway tour of layouts is a nice way to get ideas but I would not consider them particularly interesting unless (when tours were not being conducted) they were accessible for visitors to share with the owner.

Personally I would put Marty's layout at the top (for me) because he has the ability (genius?) for making everyone feel welcome and he can walk away and do other things while others are tramping all over his layout.

I think the personality and attitude of the owner is as important if not more important than the physical layout.

A good question might be "how far would you be willing to drive to see a particular layout?"

Regards,

Jerry


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Truly, the only way to fairly determine the "largest" is by some single measure. Total trackage in feet probably is the best single measure, but even that may not necessarily constitute "largest" since much of that track may include sidings or double-tracked main lines, etc. 

Ditto for using "area" or "overall dimension" as the standard because much of the acreage may be comprised of landscaping and the rail line itself may be relatively modest in length.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

At this point ... I think I'd rather drive to marty's than to the ECLSTS? 

Chas


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For my own personal idea of largest, I would want to know mainline length(s) and total trackage in feet. 

That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run, since the total trackage could be misleading for the reasons Allan gave. 

The "largest" in terms of acreage is a weird one... having a single large loop on 3 acres is not as "big" as the Fairplex on less ground but more packed in. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2010 11:55 AM 
For my own personal idea of largest, I would want to know mainline length(s) and total trackage in feet. 

That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run, since the total trackage could be misleading for the reasons Allan gave. 

The "largest" in terms of acreage is a weird one... having a single large loop on 3 acres is not as "big" as the Fairplex on less ground but more packed in. 

Regards, Greg 


What if there is no _mainline_? Clarkson's run mostly independant loops that do not intercept each other. Still, over 3,000 feet of track on 1/3 acre is a greater "density" than the Fairplex.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

This one has to rank up there with the one Dennis has in Arizona!! Rick built this for him, and where he attempted the world's record pull at!!

Rick The Railroad Guy Gallery

Also this one for the sheer beauty and the trestle work on it I was amazed the first time I viewed this one!

Rick The Railroad Guy Gallery

Another favorite The Bird and Bear R.R.


Untitled Document


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Fairplex has 3 main loops, and a couple other smaller ones. The big loops are "main lines", since you would not call a switchyard a main line..... I don't see the conceptual difficulty... 

I said "That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run" on the subject of main lines... 



3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater "density" than 8,000 feet (see post #4) on .69 acre (your data) at the Fairplex? Huh? uhhh,,, 3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater density than 8,000 feet on slightly more than 2/3 acre?... 

nope... check the math... 9,000 feet per acre vs. 11,594 feet per acre (Fairplex) 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd agree with Greg on main length etc. If I were to design another railroad for myself it would be more to the 1:1 standards on curve size etc. 
Most of us don't have the money to start out "big" it takes lots of time. 
Fairplex and Dennis is still in my hope to visit someday list along with the folks in the AZ connection.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, I understand you already have broad curves... like 20' diameter or more. That would be one heck of a great layout if you could go bigger, "mile long" trains would be an everyday thing I would guess. 

The problem with curves that broad is I believe you might need a golf cart to follow your train! 

Come out in November if you can, stop by JJ's and maybe you can arrange a visit to Dennis' place on the way... I'll spring for the pizza! (and beer) 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

There are alot of undiscoverd layouts out there as well. Jim Miller has a nice setup along with that ChillieCharlie Guy.







Heard his bridge is bigger than my house.







Raymand Manley has a good size RR as well But Marty is my Hero.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2010 02:41 PM 
The Fairplex has 3 main loops, and a couple other smaller ones. The big loops are "main lines", since you would not call a switchyard a main line..... I don't see the conceptual difficulty... 

I said "That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run" on the subject of main lines... 



3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater "density" than 8,000 feet (see post #4) on .69 acre (your data) at the Fairplex? Huh? uhhh,,, 3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater density than 8,000 feet on slightly more than 2/3 acre?... 

nope... check the math... 9,000 feet per acre vs. 11,594 feet per acre (Fairplex) 

Regards, Greg 



Sorry, thought the Fairplex had a bit over 6,000 feet of track, and at that, Clarkson's would have greater density. He--, my railroad has greater density then either, but I have


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11 Jun 2010 03:48 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2010 02:41 PM 
The Fairplex has 3 main loops, and a couple other smaller ones. The big loops are "main lines", since you would not call a switchyard a main line..... I don't see the conceptual difficulty... 

I said "That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run" on the subject of main lines... 



3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater "density" than 8,000 feet (see post #4) on .69 acre (your data) at the Fairplex? Huh? uhhh,,, 3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater density than 8,000 feet on slightly more than 2/3 acre?... 

nope... check the math... 9,000 feet per acre vs. 11,594 feet per acre (Fairplex) 

Regards, Greg 



Sorry, thought the Fairplex had a bit over 6,000 feet of track, and at that, Clarkson's would have greater density. He--, my railroad has greater density then either, but I have


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 11 Jun 2010 03:49 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 11 Jun 2010 03:48 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2010 02:41 PM 
The Fairplex has 3 main loops, and a couple other smaller ones. The big loops are "main lines", since you would not call a switchyard a main line..... I don't see the conceptual difficulty... 

I said "That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run" on the subject of main lines... 



3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater "density" than 8,000 feet (see post #4) on .69 acre (your data) at the Fairplex? Huh? uhhh,,, 3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater density than 8,000 feet on slightly more than 2/3 acre?... 

nope... check the math... 9,000 feet per acre vs. 11,594 feet per acre (Fairplex) 

Regards, Greg 



Sorry, thought the Fairplex had a bit over 6,000 feet of track, and at that, Clarkson's would have greater density. He--, my railroad has greater density then either, but I have


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11 Jun 2010 03:53 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 11 Jun 2010 03:49 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 11 Jun 2010 03:48 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2010 02:41 PM 
The Fairplex has 3 main loops, and a couple other smaller ones. The big loops are "main lines", since you would not call a switchyard a main line..... I don't see the conceptual difficulty... 

I said "That would give me an idea of how many and how long trains could be run" on the subject of main lines... 



3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater "density" than 8,000 feet (see post #4) on .69 acre (your data) at the Fairplex? Huh? uhhh,,, 3,000 feet on 1/3 acre is greater density than 8,000 feet on slightly more than 2/3 acre?... 

nope... check the math... 9,000 feet per acre vs. 11,594 feet per acre (Fairplex) 

Regards, Greg 



Sorry, thought the Fairplex had a bit over 6,000 feet of track, and at that, Clarkson's would have greater density. He--, my railroad has greater density then either, but I have


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Walas, John Corradini and I attended one of Roger's Open Houses about seven years ago and it is very impressive indeed. Tons of gardens and walkways throughout the layout. You can literally get right up to the mainlines and count the rivits on the locos and cars. This was without a doubt one of the best and most beautiful private layouts I have ever seen. I have some photos I took that day in my 1st Class storage somewhere.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Nick!

Open house went sweet!

We had the BTS bus crowd on Thursday. They loved it and many (_including the lady who puts on the BTS open ho_uses) said it is the nicest garden railroad they have ever seen. Everything worked perfectly the entire time. I talked to three of these people at BTS on Saturday who recognized me and they said they loved it. Two actually said they preferred it to Sheegog's,_ and I didn't ask_.









Just a couple of Internet people on Sunday, but with other invited guests and railroad clubs, ~80 people over the 5 hours. The trains ran great with only three heavyweight derailments in over 5-1/2 hours time, typically due to ballast that fouls a turnout. The electronics (including the Tortoise Bump system where many stood waiting for the collision at the crossing that never comes) worked perfectly the whole time.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 11 Jun 2010 04:21 PM 
Nick!

Open house went sweet!

We had the BTS bus crowd on Thursday. They loved it and many (_including the lady who puts on the BTS open ho_uses) said it is the nicest garden railroad they have ever seen. Everything worked perfectly the entire time. I talked to three of these people at BTS on Saturday who recognized me and they said they loved it. Two actually said they preferred it to Sheegog's,_ and I didn't ask_.










Just a couple of Internet people on Sunday, but with other invited guests and railroad clubs, ~80 people over the 5 hours. The trains ran great with only three heavyweight derailments in over 5-1/2 hours time, typically due to ballast that fouls a turnout. The electronics (including the Tortoise Bump system where many stood waiting for the collision at the crossing that never comes) worked perfectly the whole time.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah!_ Now_ we're cook'n!!! Yes, this is indeed a top ten (size wise) layout! Has this one been featured in Garden Railways? Keep 'em coming!!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 11 Jun 2010 04:47 PM 
Yeah!_ Now_ we're cook'n!!! Yes, this is indeed a top ten (size wise) layout! Has this one been featured in Garden Railways? Keep 'em coming!!










If you mean Clarkson, yeah they've been in _Garden Railways Magazine_ in the past.

Another large local venue is The Living Desert with over 3,000 feet of track, though I don't know the total area. They boast the longest wooden trestle at 202 feet long.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I have videos of the R&F, back when I lived in town I dreamed dreams, had visions, then woke up.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

And immediately went out and started making _your_ layout (thus giving other people something to dream about!)


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## hawkfanjohn (Nov 17, 2009)

I've got to admit for shear size Dennis Serrines layout will take your breath away. Just walking past his racks of engines and cars ~over 250 engines, over 3000 cars. And he uses a large crew to run his trains fast around a huge raised bed layout with large metal overpasses so you can go into the center of his layout without stepping on track or interfering with running trains. 

Personally prefer some of the smaller layouts but definitely will take your breath away!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I am new here. I was asked to post regarding large out door model railroads. There are many factors that determine this and they vary by each individual. I have done the design and proof over and over until the land has "taught" me what I could build. My interest in building a large layout is primarily to run very long trains, and hopefully to have a fun time running trains with others - therefore having open house gatherings in the future. I at first wanted to build something that supported large locos in a "normal setting", gracefully pulling long trains. Currently much has changed getting to where I am now with the project. But, these are the basics. It is being built on 5 acres! I am not concerned with the density issue here guys. The curves for the Mainline are built to a minimum of 45 feet radius - 90 foot circles, with supper-elevation and transition curves. I have curves all the way up to 60 foot radius/120 foot circle also. I have had rail specially machined for me to build large switches also. In fact, they are mainline #14. These monster switches are 6 feet long, with a curved section exceeding 60 ft. radius. My grades were to be 1.5% max, went up to 1.8%, but with continued design effort I now have a separated double track with the up hill grades back down to 1.33 - 1.34%, and with some minor adjustment I am now at 1.30% for 100's of feet of mainline trackage. The track plan is basically a double track dog-bone. There are several summits to conquer on the way. As such a loop has been added to the East dog-bone return loop area. This loop alone is 6 miles long and is the first piece to be completed, with track going down this summer until ... 

Yes, it will take some time to build a large layout, none have been built quickly that I have seen in the mags or online. But I am building something that is well out side the norm for layouts. And my goals are becoming realized here. 

Maybe you have heard of a 7-bay hopper car, I'm the originator of such a car, run in the "World's Longest Model Train", over the past 2 years in Phoenix. I now introduce a twist in G-scale, a fresh definition to the term "large radius curves", and BIG switches. I want to run a very long train - and do it successfully!! It can be done - I have changed the recipe to do just this. All the hard work that a large group of volunteers have done has been noticed and needs completion - someday in the future. I have the motive power to accomplish this, also unheard of. Maybe you have heard of rumors floating around about a G-scale DD40A in the build phase, in someones private shop. Actually they are the shops for the "Dragoon Mountain Scenic Railway", my home layout. They are not rumors... I live in Southern Arizona also, along with other fine layouts! I hope to see many of you here some day so we can play trains together!! The DMSRy thanks you for your time! So who else has a large railroad? Dirk Carmichael


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome to MLS Dirk! I really started this thread to try and do something different from the "usual" (which too often seems to be complaining or arguing about something or other) by asking a question that not only intrigued me but which I hoped would inspire other people as well! It's really not a contest! Rather, I'd like to think of it as a "Who's who" of garden railroading so let's keep 'em coming! I know there are others out there that we haven't mentioned yet!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks Steve for the welcome! I have been fortunate I guess to have run trains at the 2 largest layouts in AZ, both mentioned previously above, the DRV&E where the Longest Train attempts have been run, and Dennis Sirrine's Mesa layout also!! I felt they "taught" me many lessons I would want to use in my own layout. I also found some items missing that I will include while building. They also are the only layouts I have visited in person... What an impression they make. Each is unique and very different indeed. As any layout should be, a reflection of the builder! 
I'm an old HO modeler - only interested in backwoods logging and mining ops. When I moved to AZ I started thinking of a narrow gauge branch-line for a train layout. Then I got involved in Longest Train, met others in the hobby, was swayed by present day RR rolling by my property all day long, only a 1/4 mile away, and started thinking about a mainline railroad here. It now consumes my time for hobbies, no more R/C flying these days, and I have not been down the mine shaft for some time digging down under - for treasures!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

What of the "railroad park" out at the north end of the Phoenix area. I seem to recall that that was quite sizable.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Fairly large in physical size, large square, but not tons of track, several big loops. I've been there. 

But in the square footage encompassed it's close to the Fairplex as I remember. 

Regards, Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

People seem to be getting the wrong idea about this thread. The reason I was curious was due to the fact that certain layouts have become focal points for train meets. The Fairplex was only the most recent example. Marty's North Table Creek Garden RR is a perfect example of a layout that handles multiple train operators and has become a regular event for many of us each September! There have been threads about other train meets held at people's layouts that have been documented here on MLS. These layouts are capable of handling multiple operators and I was curious about them and how they compare but _I never wanted a competition!_ Think of this thread more as a reference and you would then have my intentions.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Dr Rivet's live steam layout in Northern VA is really enormous--I'm not sure how much linear footage, but there are 4-5 tracks running through the entire length, so it would have to be quadrupled at least. It's an amazing spot for live steamers--lots and lots of track that can handle the biggest locos, shaded bays for maintenance, and great spot for socializing while running trains.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Lownote 

Thanks for the compliment; however the IE & W Ry hardly gets into the "largest" class. To wit: 

Nominal footprint: 140 ft x 170 ft 

Track circuit: 560 ft double track main in Ga 1, one loop in Ga 0 

Passing sidings: five varying from 95 to 140 feet 

Storage tracks: 12 totalling 350 feet 

Steaming Bay: 8 service tracks and 3 through roads 

Minimum radius: 24 feet 

Turnouts: #10 

Total track: 3000 feet 

SO.... when originally built in 1994, it was "up there", but now probably barely makes the to 25 or 30. NO MATTER!! It serves the purpose for which it was designed, and everyone seems to enjoy running on the track. I would go crazy if it was a "fully sceniced" garden railway. 

Regards 

JJS


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron Senke, in northeast Nevada, has a big layout, several thousand feet of track in a very scenic landscape.


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

How about the Garden Railroad at Disney World in Florida. I have not seen it in person but the pictures i.ve seen are impressive. Not even sure if it is still there as I thought it was hosted by LGB. It would be a shame if they let it go as that seems like a great venue to show the hobby. 
Steve 

http://www.railroadpix.com/rrphotos/Model_Railroads/Garden_Railways/


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## NYC Buff (Sep 21, 2008)

Is this question restricted to outdoor layouts only? If it includes indoor layouts, then Entertrainment in Southern Ohio between Dayton and Cincinnati certainly qualifies as one of the largest "G-Scale" layouts in the world!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Need to distingish between Garden~Ground layout and Elevated layout (primarily Live Steam). It's not necessarily clear cut, some Garden~Ground layouts run both.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

No. There is no distinction between an elevated and a ground layout. If it's a big layout is all that I was interested in. There are large layouts that are raised and on the ground as well! The garden railroad at the CRRM is a good example of this although I would classify it as a medium large layout.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem, of course, is that just about every individual has his or her own definition of "large" or "largest" based on what he or she has seen or otherwise been exposed to. A layout that I may consider as "large", another individual may regard as "largest," and the converse is equally true. 

I guess I've personally visited well over 100 garden railroads all around the country in my years in the hobby, and certainly have seen hundreds more in books, magazines, and videos, but I couldn't even begin to guess at which one was the largest, let alone which ones I would most recommend as the "premier" layouts to see/visit. Truth is, the real attraction--to me, at least--has more to do with overall execution of the hobbyist's concept than it has to do with size, and even that is a highly subjective evaluation. 

There are so many truly fine garden railroads in place all over the world--some as yet undiscovered in regard to media or other exposure--that about all we can do is take pleasure in knowing that so many really interesting garden layouts are out there, and avail ourselves of an opportunity to see and learn from each of them if/when such an opportunity comes our way.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Very eloquently stated and perhaps that _should_ be the last thought for this thread! It had it's desired effect. It sated my curiosity and it got everyone thinking! I thank you all for participating!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 17 Jun 2010 01:44 PM 
No. There is no distinction between an elevated and a ground layout. If it's a big layout is all that I was interested in. There are large layouts that are raised and on the ground as well! The garden railroad at the CRRM is a good example of this although I would classify it as a medium large layout.


Steve: Have to disagree, strongly. I'll be a little more simplistic and add some detail to further my comment;

1. Elevated vs Garden/Ground: There's crawling arond on the ground and there's walking around. Watching versus hands-on operation. 

2. I've found steamers and the electrics tend to lean heavily towards "birds of a feather...", perspectives and experience differ shaping perspectives

3. Size does matter; but how you use it is as if not more important. Live steaming is about hands-on operation; presents limitations of water and fuel capacity. For electrics track power is forever and battery are either the same or a battery change.

4. IMHO - And with much respect and admiration forthe work... garden layouts with scenery and all are in the same group as smallerr gauge indoor layouts with all the scenery. The enjoyment is in the building as much, sometimes more, than the trains themselves. Electrics as a group tend to find the sparce elevated steam layout boring. 

5. If the biggest layout is say 5000' linear loop circuit, that's nearly a mile for a steamer to walk. Exercise is fine, but has its proper time and place. 

Jim Stapleton gave the specs of his layout, belows photo of his exceptional layout:









Steamup and Storage Bays:










Hopefuly it made two cents worth? 


I am not familar with the CCRM.


For the largest Garden Layout I think there's a very good chance it is in Europe, Germany, Austria, etc. Pictures have shown some easily bigger than Fairplex and covering very large areas.


Fairplex I believe dates from the 1930's, hence the Granddaddy status. Originally a different gauge and convert/totally rebuilt to large scale in the 1970's(?). 

At the 2000 Narrow Gauge Convention in Salt Lake City one of the tour layouts was huge. Talking to the staff they planned, wanted their layout to be larger than Fairplex.


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

Is the layout you referring to in Salt Lake City the one at Thanksgiving Point if so it is no longer there. They ripped it out.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris,
I completely agree that there is indeed a major difference between elevated track used for live steam and ground level garden railroads! That wasn't my point, however. I didn't want this thread to devolve into sub-categories so _for this particular instance and only this particular thread_, I didn't want to make a distinction! Your points were very well made and would make for some really interesting threads on their own and the pictures of that layout are astounding!!! Thank you for posting them!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 18 Jun 2010 07:58 PM 
Chris,
I completely agree that there is indeed a major difference between elevated track used for live steam and ground level garden railroads! That wasn't my point, however. I didn't want this thread to devolve into sub-categories so _for this particular instance and only this particular thread_, I didn't want to make a distinction! Your points were very well made and would make for some really interesting threads on their own and the pictures of that layout are astounding!!! Thank you for posting them!



Steve
Interesting 50% maybe more of those posting spliit the question into what "largest" meant to them. You had to have had in mind what you meant by largest when you asked the question. Ironic, you "didn't want to make a distinction" but you wrote, "If anyone knows the outside dimensions of the layout, how many independent lines and how much trackage (I would say that one would have to have 1000 feet just to make the list.). Distinction or subcategories?; seems like a circular question.









I think the thread shows, one man's "what is the largest?" is another man's "it depends..."


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Absolutely!!









Actually, the whole thread is subjective! Like I originally said, I was curious about large garden railroads and I thought it would be a good thread to generate some interest. I really didn't want to make any distinctions other than "large" as opposed to everything else! The 1000' distinction was really just a _very_ loose clarification! There are people that think that 1000' of track is a relatively small layout whereas I would bet that the majority of garden railroads in the US are at or smaller than that mark! I only have 250' of trackage so 1000' seems adequate for inclusion in this group. It's not a competition! Rather, I'd like to think of it as more of an indulgence of my curiosity!


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ron Senek on 18 Jun 2010 12:16 PM 
Is the layout you referring to in Salt Lake City the one at Thanksgiving Point if so it is no longer there. They ripped it out. Back 2001 at Thankgiving Point Garden. have large garden railroad layouts to the Utah Garden Railway Society member . the Owner Thankgiving Point had them remove it and it was a real pity. There was a huge mountain with trains running around and thru it and an LGB tram raun up and down it. The little kids loved it!


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

That was a 5000FT of track at Thankgiving Point Garden back in 2001

I found the website
http://www.hrtrains.com/garden3.html


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow! Two years of construction and it gets booted after only a couple of months due to "new management"??!! In Wichita, we have been in negotiations for the last eight years with the Wichita Botanica Gardens to put in a permanent layout. We finally found out that there were a couple of people on the board of directors that emphatically_ didn't_ want trains anywhere near their gardens! In fact, we have had a Christmas display that has been one of the major highlights of Botanica's "Illuminations" for the past decade. It turns out that even that "temporary" display was controversial! I am seriously going to question the wisdom of continuing to try to get a permanent layout there! We thought the battle was about getting a layout built but what happened at Thanksgiving Point only emphasizes the fact that one can never assume that the battle has been won! I can't even begin to imagine the heartache and sheer disapointment that the members of the Utah Garden RR Society must have felt after all that effort was wasted.....


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Bryan what ever happened to that ride on train track you discovered while roaming around out there????? Did you ever get to meet the guy that owned the property, and or see the engine that went with the track???? Maybe I missed it but was just wondering????? Regal I'm gonna get out to Salt Lake City one of these days to visit my daughter, want to look you, Shad, and Dave F up while I'm there maybe???? Regal


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I start to be member of UGRS in 2005. Regal I have no idea Who the owner of ride on train at eureka, utah.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a guy just north of the SLC airport that has a ride on train as well. I know a few guys in the UGRS are familiar with him, but I don't know his name. 

Regal.. by all means, give us a call when you're in town.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the guy with the 7.5" gauge ride on north of the SLC airport.. 

http://gocitykids.parentsconnect.co...t-84025-us


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Did anyone else happen to watch "James May's Toy Stories" last night on BBC America? 

In one day volunteers set up a 10 MILE OO scale track along a former railroad line from Barnstaple to Bideford (England).

"00 scale uses the same track gauge as H0 gauge (3.5 mm to the foot, 1:87). However, the large propulsion mechanisms could not fit into the small British prototypes, so the scale was enlarged to 4 mm to the foot without altering the gauge."


While not G Gauge it was outdoors. None of the trains they started with made the full 10 miles but one did manage to run 7 miles to Instow before it too gave out.

The volunteers then took all the track up very early the next morning.

I think it says a lot for the future of our hobby when something like this, requiring so many volunteers, can be accomplished.

Congratulations to Great Britain for bringing toy trains back into national media focus.

Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

wooow, and sad...


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sad? How come? Let's see.....1:87 and 10 miles (actual) would be...870 miles subjective! None of the engines could make 870 scale miles without breaking down?!! Yes, I see now that it _is_ sad...
Hey! I got an idea! Let's try that "World's longest train" in large scale down that track! All we would need is roughly 52,800 ft. of track. If we do it in 5 ft. sections that would be 10,560 averaging $30 per section it would come to $316,800! Uh.....hmmmm.....on second thought let's just leave it at "sad!"


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyIg...re=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Ee...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gakk...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoKL...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kh...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kux-...re=related
http://www.bbcamerica.com/video/james-may.jsp?bclid=115362932001&bctid=115543394001

Aside from the cost of the track it would have been nice if it had been done in G Gauge as I suspect many if not most of our trains could manage 10 miles without breaking down. Most if not all of their breakdowns were attributed to dirt/sand picked up by the locos due to rain the day/night before. Large Scale locos should have far less trouble in the same circumstances.

10 miles at 1:29 = 290 scale miles. Easy! Even 870 scale miles would probably not stop many of our trains. 

All we would need to prove it would be for some manufacturer to donate that 52,800 feet of track.









I remember one guy who left home for two weeks and forgot that he had a train running on his outside layout. When he got home two weeks later the train was still running. I'd bet his train had traveled well over 10 track miles.

I don't know how they did it on the program but I wonder they really did use 10 miles of track. There are some layouts with a mile of track and it would not be impossible to have teams laying 1/2 mile of track in front of a moving train while other teams pulled the 1/2 mile of track up from behind the train in effect using 1 mile (5,820') feet of track 10 times. That would bring Steve's estimate from $316,800 down to $31,680 for track that could then be sold perhaps as a certified part of a new Guinness Record. 

10 miles of track put down and pulled up at the rate of 1/2 mile per hour would take 20 hours. In 24 hours there would be a 4 hour time buffer. That would leave a train running at a scale 14.5 miles per hour (average) which would not be unrealistic for many freight trains. Faster track laying would result in faster run times. The loco could run on track power from 12 volt auto/RV batteries with an on board backup of battery power in case track power failed on any portion of the track or if a battery manufacturer wanted to loan/donate batteries they could be replaced periodically as the train needed them. 
Yep! It could be done.


Jerry


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