# Suspended Outdoor Layout \ USA Trains Diameter



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Hello

I'm a semi-beginner / intermediate G gauger. Over a decade ago I had a raised layout with 2 basic ovals of 14' and 15' diameters that were over 100' a piece. Simple layout, but that's my style - keep it simple. I used stainless steel rail, MTH 4000 transformer, 2 MTH Dash 8s, and all MTH rolling stock. It worked like a charm and it was very easy maintain to operate for several years. Matter of fact, I'm not sure it I ever had anything derail unless by human intervention - mostly kids trying to get cars on and off flat bed cars. Then I moved, tore everything up and sold it all, and I was content to walk away from it.

Then Christmas came and I decided to get out my old O gauge set and get her working again.........then here I am.

Now I'm debating whether to get back into this crazy hobby again. But this time it would be different. I have an outdoor pavilion that I was thinking about putting in an overhead suspended single oval - 60' long. Has anyone had experience with this type of setup outdoors? I would likely need rail guards - plexiglass or maybe steel cable? Plexiglass would offer wind protection but may cloud up over time? Cable might be more stealth but no wind protection? Thoughts?

Also, looking at 10' diameter with track power on stainless steel rail, which I acquired already.....just in case. Now I did very much enjoy the MTH setup I had before, but I still wished they followed suit and went 1/29th. My rolling stock (especially the caboose) were really tiny in comparison to Aristo and USA. Given that it will be suspended above, I think size would matter more, but so would operation.

That being said, I wanted to explore the possibility of going all USA this time with an SD70 and their 33" passenger cars. The company says it will work on 8', and 10' should not be a problem - but I have read otherwise. I don't mind that it will look "octagonal" in the turns, but I want seamless operation on a track suspended overhead outdoors - sounds a bit silly I know. I worry that the big diesel might pull the first car off - but perhaps I could place a 40' box car in there or something? But will the passenger cars pull each other off as well? Is this just too big a train for this application? I really love the look of those passenger cars and I would only get 4 at the most. I think their weight would be an advantage but their length might be too much for the curves.

Alternatively, I could return to the smaller MTH 1/32 and go with their passenger cars which would handle 10' diameter curves without issue. I believe they are 28" long (5" inches shorter) and 5" tall (1 inch shorter). 

From my past, I never messed around with all the MTH features too much and the cab chatter got old pretty quickly. I would just turn them on and watch them roll. I love the big boy but that might not be the right application - especially if something went wrong - but I would have guards in place.

Anyway, I though I would return to this website again looking for help and advice. You guys helped me so much in the past and maybe you can talk me off the ledge this time, or make me jump back in again.

Squatch


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*USA Trains Stremliners on 10 foot dia. track*

Squatch!

I have a suspended under house layout that also connects to outdoor layout. The under house layout includes many 10 foot diameter curves, including a 10 foot diameter loop. I have USA Trains streamline passenger cars that operate OK on the layout. These cars, as all my cars, are fitted with body mount Kadee centerset type couplers. See article hosted for me by Greg E. on his Web site, title:
*USAT Streamliners with Kadee 906 center set couplers*

(There is a link to a video at the end of the article.)

I hope this helps with your decisions,
-Ted


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanx Ted

I read the link and watched your video layout. Very well done!!!! Couple more questions if you don't mind.

1) In your video, are the initial outdoor loops (helix) 10' diameters? I must say the 8' diameters look a little painful to those streamliner trucks, but your layout looks much more reasonable.

2) How wide is your horseshoe girder bridge road bed using those 10' diameters tracks? What material is your girder bridge guard rail and the roadbed supporting the track? Looks really nice and robust!

3) Do the Kadees make a "significant" amount of difference for operating tighter diameters - those cars are already expensive to begin with...? Not sure how much that upgrade costs per car?

4) On your suspended layout inside - what width is your plywood roadbed? How far apart are your threaded rods? 1/4", 3/8" or 1/2" diameter rods?

5) Do you find the USA streamliners worthy of the price compared to other brands?

6) Answer if you would like to on this quesstion - if you were faced with my situational 10' diameter constraints - would you go with bigger USA trains on such a layout? or play it safe with smaller MTH? Not to stir the pot - just unbiased feedback

thx!!!!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have 10' diameter curves, train runs fine, notice the loop below is almost all curves. There are actually 2 "S" curves visible, only a 12" section of track between curves.


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thx Greg!

Are you using stock USA couplers? or modified?


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thx Greg!

Have your USA streamliner couplers been modified or are they stock USA?


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Parsed Answers*

Squatch,

I believe Greg E. retained the USA Trains factory "low mount" couplers that worked OK on his layout. 
I use body mounted Kadee 906s that conform to Kadee 980 gauge prototypical height from the railhead on the USA Trains passenger cars, so this is what I can speak to.

RE: "...Couple more questions if you don't mind." *Answers are parsed below*.

1) In your video, are the initial outdoor loops (helix) 10' diameters? I must say the 8' diameters look a little painful to those streamliner trucks, but your layout looks much more reasonable.
*Answer*: Yes, my outdoor layout has mostly 14 foot to 20 foot diameter sections where curves are except for the viaduct horseshoe curve that has some 10 foot diameter track sections.

2) How wide is your horseshoe girder bridge road bed using those 10' diameters tracks? What material is your girder bridge guard rail and the roadbed supporting the track? Looks really nice and robust!
*Answer*: The outdoor "girder bridge" viaduct material is thermal granite panels 1 foot wide by 2 foot long by 3/4 inch thick obtained from a garden supply business. The guard rail material is redwood bender board.

3) Do the Kadees make a "significant" amount of difference for operating tighter diameters - those cars are already expensive to begin with...? Not sure how much that upgrade costs per car? 
*Answer*: I target operation using body mount Kadees to work down to 8 foot diameter track circle so they are assured to work on 10 foot diameter curves. I used body mounted *Kadee 906* "G" scale couplers on the USAT Streamliner cars; cost per car is about $8.00.
For custom made spacer, I get PVC plastic that is cut in a long strip by *TAP Plastics* at fairly low cost.

4) On your suspended layout inside - what width is your plywood roadbed? How far apart are your threaded rods? 1/4", 3/8" or 1/2" diameter rods?
*Answer*: The under house roadbed is 8 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick 5 ply-plywood suspended by 1/4 - 20 threaded steel rods. For full description, see "Vignette" (article), hosted for me by Greg E. on his Web site, title:
"*Under house suspended layout article*" 

5) Do you find the USA streamliners worthy of the price compared to other brands?
*Answer*: USAT Streamliners are expensive, but they are about the only remaining 1/29 scale passengers cars still made that I know of you can get nowadays, but they are excellent quality products.
As typical with "G" 1/29 scale items, not all road names or car types may be available (in stock) at any one time. So check with various dealers - *example*: *RLD Hobbies USA Trains Aluminum Streamline Passenger Cars *

6) Answer if you would like to on this quesstion - if you were faced with my situational 10' diameter constraints - would you go with bigger USA trains on such a layout? or play it safe with smaller MTH? Not to stir the pot - just unbiased feedback
*Answer*: I think either the MTH 1/32 scale cars or USA Trains 1/29 scale cars will work just fine. From my experience with USA Trains passenger cars, they work on 10 foot diameter curves very well using body mount Kadee centerset couplers as I have described in the article.

-Ted


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All my motive power is Kadee, all rolling stock Kadee EXCEPT the USAT Streamliners. Their "tightlock" couplers are fine, so the RPO car (first car) has a Kadee one end and the USAT metal tightlocks on the other.

Greg


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Wow - super helpful on all facets!

One thing I didn't quite understand Ted: 

For custom made spacer, I get PVC plastic that is cut in a long strip by *TAP Plastics* at fairly low cost.

How does that come into play with the Kadee coupler?

Last question (hopefully): Any issues with a USA SD70 pulling around the streamliners on 10' diameter? Like Greg mentioned, will a Kadee mod on the engine and the first car work well? If so is the Mod simple for both the SD70 and the Streamliner? I need simply as I'm a bit challenged.


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Spacer is Mounting Plate / Adapter*

Squatch,

The spacer (aka: adapter or mounting plate) is needed to mount the Kadee 906 coupler assembly. This is described (with dimensional drawing) in the Article: "*USA Trains Streamliner & Kadee 906 centerset couplers*". (Scroll down to "_Now for the how to detail_"). 
TAP Plastics can cut a width down to 1 inch wide strip, so you could ask to have them cut a 3 foot long or so strip to one of the dimensions of the plate shown in the drawing. (Keep in mind that TAP Plastics may not do an accurate cut.) Then you can cut off multiples from the strip you need to make the spacer plates.

As to the USA Trains SD70, this is the only item (Loco or Car) that I used a pivoting body mounted Kadee medium offset type coupler. All my other items use fixed stationary body mount Kadee center set type couplers. To see what I did to the SD 70, see Vignette (article), title: "*USAT SD70MAC experiences*" 

The SD 70 is what got me to start fitting all my locos & cars with Kadee body mount couplers.

BTW, knowing your real name would be appreciated.
Thank you,
-Ted


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Wow thx - that seems like a bit of a hassle to mod everything like that. I wish there was an easier solution.

I'm going to pour over those articles and get more educated before taking the plunge. So happy to have fellows as knowledgable and willing to help share your knowledge. Helps me make an informed decision. I wish it was as easy as buy a train and rolling stock and put them on the track and watch them roll.

thx again!


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thx

This seems to be a bit of a hassle - at least for a novice like me. I need to digest all this great info - you guys are so generous. Thank you so much!

Friends call me Sasquatch - Squatch for short.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The SD70 will normally throw a car off a curve on 8' and some 10' curves.... it's pretty nasty, so it really depends on your curves and what you are coupling to the loco.

You would have to pick one of the largest locomotives possible !!

Greg


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

With the method I used (pivoting Kadee box) a pair of SD70s coupled to a variety of cars in a 35 car train operated OK on my under house layout that includes a 10 foot diameter track loop and some "S" bends (with a straight section between transitions). At a later time, the SD70s pulling a 25 car train operated OK on my outdoor layout that includes a double loop and grades. (The train could have had more cars.)
-Ted


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thx

Last couple questions:

1) If I went to 12.5 diameter, would significantly change the equation such that stock USA SD70 and Streamliners would work seamlessly (too bold a statement?)

2) Is the an alternative USA loco that would work better with 10' diameter and the streamliners? Seems like they all would need to have modified couplers from what I've read.

3) Talked to one G scale store, and he said it stock couplers might work if you put a 40' box car between the SD70 and the 1st streamliner - kinds in the theme of what Greg said.

Greg - I know this is a big train - the size is kind of what drew me too it since this would be an outdoor suspended pavilion. I was thinking a bigger sized train might be more interesting than the 1/32 MTH. Although, maybe the MTH makes more sense given my constraints. I've never seen an MTH passenger car but I have seen Aristos and I imagine the USAs are even nicer. As I said previously, I had all MTH before with no issues, other than when I visited other layouts I really noticed the difference in size. But I guess you can now operate them off your phone if you're into that.....decisions.....


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the increase in diameter would solve/prevent a lot of issues and would be a wise decision.

Almost any other loco is less of a pain, but keep the loco, I was just giving you a bit of a hard time ha ha!

Also, if you notice my train, you do see the shortest car follows the loco... Also, you might not realize this, but those locos are NOT F units but E8's which are pretty long.

MTH goes to a lot of work to make their trains work on toy-like curves, like LGB does, but that SD70 will be one of the most impressive diesels you will see in large scale.

Greg


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*SD70 Factory Optional Coupler Box*

USA Trains includes an optional factory coupler box assembly intended for SD70 operation on tight curves when this loco is coupled to another USAT car.










-Ted


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

So have you had any experience with this optional coupler? Looks like a quick easy fix to all my concerns - but if it was you'ld be using it instead of Kadee mods, right? What am I missing here.....

thx again - you guys are invaluable!


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Squatch,

I did not try to use the SD70 optional coupler nor do I want to. I only described it if you choose to use USA Trains factory couplers on your locos and cars. I think the design of the optional coupler is very clever, but it will look super ugly on an otherwise nice loco.

-Ted


----------



## Squatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I appreciate your view

My main concern is operational efficiency. #2 is looks - you would know that if you saw me : )

So I know this is a novice question, but is the SD70 body mount couplers whereas the MTH is truck mounted? I would think the latter is better for operation for tighter curves since the trucks pivot and thus the truck mounted couplers would pivot as well. However, the body mount would have a lag in the pivot on a curve and thus bind the train - but look more prototypical. Is this right?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Also body mount couplers (given sufficient curves) operate better, especially when backing.

I am all body mount except for new locos that have not had Kadees applied yet.

Greg


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Body Mount vs. Truck Mount Couplers*

Squatch,

I don't have MTH 1/32 scale (#1 gauge) items, so I can't speak to these from experience. However, looking at the *MTH Railking One-Gauge Trains catalog*, it describes and depicts cars and diesel locos with truck mount couplers. For example, the GE Dash 8, also, includes its pilot with coupler attached to the truck rather than the body of the loco, which is like you mentioned. This mimics my old Lionel O gauge F3 loco!

From my experience with larger size 1/29 scale long length locos and cars, something less than 8 foot diameter track, like a 4 foot diameter track circle around the Christmas tree, will be problematic with body mount couplers and is more suitable for truck mount couplers. However, on such tight curves in a layout that are not in circle that permits a longer train size (quantity of cars) or a train that is fairly heavy, can be a limiting factor with respect to potential derailments even with truck mount couplers.

-Ted


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The "advantages" of truck mount couplers do not come without corresponding "costs", when the entire drag of the train is put through truck mount couplers, the drag puts side forces on the trucks through turns (since the couplers are attached to the trucks), so there is a balance struck, long trains with more drag will have more tracking issues through turns, and backing a long train is worse.

So the key is try to get to body mount if you can unless you have very short trains, where it does not matter.

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the small HLW short kit cars and body mount Kadee couplers plus change to solid metal wheels.
These are run on a 29 inch diameter track (yes, 15.5 inch radius!!). It is 1 section of 8 foot flex track bent into a circle, only 2 rail clamps used!!

So length of cars with body mounting is important.


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Significant Properties with respect to Body Mounting Couplers*

In the case of a very short car coupled to a like kind short car (or loco) it works OK. However, If coupling a short car to a long car (or loco) it can become a problem.

I have develop much experience with body mounting Kadees on many different brand products.

What is most significant for cars and locos for installing body mount couplers is the wheel base (more particularly, distance of truck pivot center to truck pivot center) and the distance overhang from truck pivot center to end of car or pilot at the coupler jaw. 

"Tweaking" with this property can be used to advantage for longer cars or locos. For example, Aristo's heavyweight 6 axle cars, 6 axle locos, and U25B loco have their truck pivot centers offset outboard for traversing around relatively tight curves that results in less end overhang - with the trade off of more "belly" overhang on the curves.

An example disadvantage is the USA Trains "floppy" axle type 6 axle diesel locos that employ inboard truck pivot centers (truck mount close to fuel tank at the two axle portion of the 3 axle truck). It's likely designed this way so its "floppy" axle faces the outboard ends of the loco (akin to the pony axle of a steam engine) to better negotiate curves. However, for body mount couplers, particularly in the case of the long SD70 loco, this is detrimental since the loco has a very pronounced front overhang on curves. That's why the SD70 comes with a cleverly designed "optional coupler", albeit aesthetically compromising.

-Ted


----------

