# Roadbed/Ballast and DCC question



## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Hey guys, 

So its finally time for my first layout outside. I have Been setting up the trains indoors for christmas, and temp. indoor layouts over the years, but since I finally have the room to build something outdoors, i think im ready! 

I'll be using aristocraft brass for track (Track Power), and the trench method for the roadbed. Went down to my local garden supply/materials store and looked at their crushed gravel selections. 

They have 1/2 and 3/8 inch crushed gravel. (the 1/2 is more "dustier") They might have 1/4" as well... 

Which one (or combinations of) would be best? 


Also, coming from N/HO scale, I use DCC (digitrax zephyr) for operations ... would I be able to use it? Im assuming I would need a booster for more voltage but not sure which one. The maximum number of locomotives I would be using at once is 2 ... otherwise it would be one at at time. (If it helps, I have a bachmann K-27, 3 ton shay, and planning to pick up a small railbus/trolly) 

Feel free to chime in with any other ideas you guys may have! 

Thanks in advance,
Nataraj


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure, many people run DCC outdoors, and I am one of them. You will probably want a higher voltage on the rails. My understanding is that most Digitrax booster outputs are adjustable, but you also need to feed enough input voltage to achieve the desired output voltage. Normally, if you use DC as an input to the booster, you need 2-3 volts more than what you want on the rails. 

I would shoot for 20-22 v DCC on the rails. I use 24, pushing it to the max. 

If you are running mostly NG locos, 20 volts on the rails will be sufficient. 

I use large ballast, which seems to resist washouts the best, just small enough to fit between the ties. It's not scale, but I like low maintenance. 

You might peruse my web site for tips, and also George Schreyer's, which was my guide when getting started. 

Regards, Greg


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Sep 2010 12:09 AM 
Sure, many people run DCC outdoors, and I am one of them. You will probably want a higher voltage on the rails. My understanding is that most Digitrax booster outputs are adjustable, but you also need to feed enough input voltage to achieve the desired output voltage. Normally, if you use DC as an input to the booster, you need 2-3 volts more than what you want on the rails. 

I would shoot for 20-22 v DCC on the rails. I use 24, pushing it to the max. 

If you are running mostly NG locos, 20 volts on the rails will be sufficient. 

I use large ballast, which seems to resist washouts the best, just small enough to fit between the ties. It's not scale, but I like low maintenance. 

You might peruse my web site for tips, and also George Schreyer's, which was my guide when getting started. 

Regards, Greg Thanks. I think I'll pick up a DB150 or DB 200+, and use my zephyr as a throttle. They both put out 20v under the "O/G" setting. 

As for the ballast, different people have different ideas when it comes to what is considered "large" ... what size did you go with? Im leaning towards 3/8" base with 1/2" crushed granite on top of the rails. Im not really concerned about scale, I just want it to be secure. Also, I live in the san francisco area, so weather and frost/snow is not a problem. 

Thanks again,
Nataraj


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I found some small gravel at Home Depot, that has fairly sharp edges (to lock together) and it's just of the size to fit between the ties. 

Half of my layout is elevated in purpose-made "planters" and the rest is on the ground with a base only a few inches deep. I'm too lazy to go to the "gravel store" to get something better! 

From what you typed, your base is smaller than your topper... I would use coarse underneath, and slightly smaller on top. This should give you excellent drainage, since rain will be your only enemy! 










Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Your Zephyr will do only about 12 volts, nowhere near enough. A DB150 or DB200 would be fine but a DCS200 doesn't cost much more and it's a cleaner setup. You'll want 18 to 20 VAC or 26 to 28 VDC to drive any of those. You'll also eventually want radio throttles. I don't know if you have a DT402 on your indoor setup, but eventually, you'll want to get one. The "r" version has a simplex radio, the "d" version has a duplex radio. Each requires a radio receiver, the two throttles DO NOT use the same receiver. The duplex version is really picky about it's battery, you'll want one of the 9.6 volt rechargeable version. The "r" version will work on nearly dead 9v alkaline batteries. 

I used a variety of materials for ballast, but the best stuff was #5 roofing gravel (80 lb bags for about $5) secured with a glue mixture, see 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/ballast_tips.html 

You'll have to select from the materials that you can find in your area.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

As has been pointed out, everyone has their likes and dislikes for the various materials that can be used for ballast. My personal favorite is screenings. It is made up of everything from stone dust to pieces about 3/16". Its what is left when stone is crushed at the quarries. It binds together very well. In fact after a month or so in the elements, you can walk on it, and it feels almost as hard as concrete. Although you can loosen it up easily with a small shovel or an old screwdriver. I mention screwdriver because thats what I use to scrape ballast from between the ties when I need to do some wiring to a 17100 contact or some similar item. If you have access to a pick up truck, go to the nearest quarry that deals with the public. I go the Delaware Quarries in Langhorne, Pa. They are actually an old quarry that has stopped quarrying, and now they sell all sorts of stone for landscaping, curbing, steps, etc. In their lower yard they have a very good selection of crushed stone, river jack (rounded stone), boulders, on and on. I go there with my Pick up an load five gallon buckets with the screenings. I usually leave with a half ton, for about $15.00.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan, is it mostly granite, or limestone/marble? 

Greg


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Greg, 

I did mean to type bigger on bottom, with smaller on top (between the rails). 

Im going to back to the place I went to and check out their selections again, just in case I missed something, because they didn't have anything that has been mentioned on the forums (like crusher fines). 

If 1/2" is too big, they also have 1/4" crushed granite and Decomposed granite ... Ill drop by tomorrow and check out their selections again... 

They also have something they call "taffy" - its made up of crushed gravel from 1/4" to 1/2". 

George, 

Thanks, Ill look into the DCS200. Still not 100% sure on DCC, but im leaning towards it since my bachmann 3 truck shay is dc/sound equipped, and my other engine is a K-27 that is DCC ready. 

Dan, 

Ill look for that. From what you describe, it sounds just like their decomposed granite.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Your choices for ballast are going to vary greatly by where you are located, and the specific quarry or supplier you're dealing with. I've got three local suppliers and each has different products which are suitable for ballast. They're all crushed stone products, varying in size from around 3/8" down to dust, but the colors and blends differ based on which location I'm at because they get it from different quarries. The specific rocks (granite, limestone, etc.) who knows, especially on the blended mixes out here. The single-color ones are typically granite out here. If it's not, people take it for granite. (sorry, couldn't resist.) The particular rock doesn't matter, really, just the color and shape. If you like how it looks, run with it. 

Later, 

K


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

But be careful with the size difference between bottom and top. I can see 1/4 topping 3/8 but I can't see 1/4 topping 1/2. And even on the first example you will see the the finer dust is going to disappear downwards. Becasue thew finer stone and especially the dust fit perfectly into the gaps of the bigger stone. You might have to re-surface several times of the years until this is settled. Also important to know, that if the stone is above the surface level of you ground, it will wash away. If you traversing a slanted piece pof property you need to secure the ballast downhill, or it will wash out. a rock (or paver stone) retaining wall is the way to go here (I am sure that there are many other methods).

Also you could glue the ballst down (e.g. 2 component Resin for lasting results DoFlex).


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Note that ballast will mix with the dirt and different size ballast will mix, smaller to the bottom and larger will rise to the top. 

Best way to prevent this is to use weed block between different materials and the mixing will not occur, plus no problem with water running off. 

I used weed block and have very little to no reballasting every year on my RR.


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks Dan never though of using weed block, I will get some and try it 
for I am tired of reballasting the track every year. 

Ken owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Just got back from the garden materials place and this is what they had that was close to your suggestions: 

Basalt fines (1/4" minus), 1/4" granite, and 3/8" crushed gravel. *I think earlier I was confusing 1/4" for 1/2" - so what I was meaning to say was - I was looking into using 1/4" on top of 3/8". * 

*
* 
They were nice enough to let me take samples home, so I took a small bag of each... Got home and did a test on a small section piece of aristocraft brass, and this is how it turned out 

Base is 3/8" crushed gravel - then I put the track down, and I topped it with 1/4" granite with grey basalt fines on top of that (the dusty stuff)... 


 

Looks good? 

Dan, 

Ill be sure to use weed block, thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, but be aware that Axel's statement is operable, that finer material may tend to "disappear" into coarser material somewhat, not unworkable, might take a few applications for it to stabilize. Nice rough edges will keep everything in place. 

Regards, Greg


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Top view 




Would it be better just to leave the fines (


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now hit it with the hose, use the "shower" setting, and it will wash the dust away and settle the rock. 

Greg


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Greg, you beat me to my edit! ... ill go do that and see how it goes.


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

After spraying some water on it, I went back over it with the basalt fines again and showered the tracks a second time. It "locked in" a lot more than I thought it would! I think after a few more rounds of fines + water it will be perfect. 

Looks like ill be going with 3/8" base, with 1/4" ballast, topped with fines. 

Thanks again guys!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, it will settle in real nice, and this way, you don't have to wait for rain to get everything settled. 

A picture of the post-watering? 

Greg


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## SFgiantsfan (Sep 5, 2010)

Right after watering 

 

After it dried out


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Sep 2010 09:43 PM 
Dan, is it mostly granite, or limestone/marble? 

Greg 

Greg, I believe it is just Pennsylvania blue stone. I don't know exactly what kind of stone it is. It comes in various sizes, and also modified, which is a mixture of fines and up to 3/4" stone. The modified is used for dry stone wall foundations, and stone paving base. Under concrete sidewalks and driveways, 3/4" is usually used as the base.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By SFgiantsfan on 06 Sep 2010 02:23 PM 
Top view 




Would it be better just to leave the fines (


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One more idea, I used 1/4 inch gravel and mixed 3 parts of this with 1 part stone dust. 

4 inches deep and great drainage here in Massachusetts. My subsoil is sand and gravel and that also helps drainage year round.


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