# Digital Levels that display Grade



## Bob Lessig (Jan 3, 2008)

I am looking to purchase a digital level for laying out grades for my roadbed. I have looked for a digital level but find the jargon a little confusing.

What jargon am I looking for when purchasing a digital level that will display grade?

I have seen degrees, percent, mm/m, in/ft in decimal, in/ft in fractional, rise and run and angle. What am I looking for if it does not specifically say "grade"?

I would like to find a reasonably priced 24" digital level that will display grade. Any suggestions?

Bob


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

It sounds like all of those will work - and I'd expect multiple units of measure to be available. 

All you need is "how steep is it?" And any of those will work. 

Do you have a unit you're most comfortable with? It does seem the model railway community seems to use percetn most often - though any "rise over run" unit essentially is a percent, too.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You will want to read in percent 
Get one that has a built in calibration function 
I find the laser output superfluous 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1

I bought the laser level above from Amazon last April. Made by Grizzly. You can purchase these through Grizzly or through Amazon.About fifty bucks. Click the link above and you can see that it does everything you want. I agree with Greg that the laser level is superfluous, but I have found it to be very handy. The laser is bright enough that I can use in bright sunshine without a problem. I check levels up to about fifty feet away. Good enough for me.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The problem I had with the laser was on curves and also cannot always easily compensate for the offset from the bottom of the level, so I also purchased one of those self-leveling lasers that put out a horizontal line...getting that and using in conjunction with the level really helped me out. Made a car with a stick and a line and rolled it along the track.... later put a ruler on the car and that helped even more


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Mar 2013 02:35 PM 
The problem I had with the laser was on curves and also cannot always easily compensate for the offset from the bottom of the level, so I also purchased one of those self-leveling lasers that put out a horizontal line...getting that and using in conjunction with the level really helped me out. Made a car with a stick and a line and rolled it along the track.... later put a ruler on the car and that helped even more Greg,

I had the same problem figuring the offset from the bottom of the level. I just went back to my days from inspecting casts from my dies and just established a known NEW "0" point to work from. Pretty easy to do, UNLESS a laser line CURVES!! Don't think so. BUT, I'm not an engineer and frankly for less than fifty feet, I'm not going to lose sleep about it. Everything on the roadbed gets tweaked by hand anyway.







That problem solved.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I stopped at my nearest Sears store last week and was pleased to find a digital level for $31. Seems to have what I think I'll need. 

There's another unit going for about $40. As I recall there were also two-foot digital levels and longer at comparably higher prices. Of course, I've only inserted a couple AAA batteries and played with it a while. It's 28 degrees today - think I'll wait for some warmer weather to see if it really works.

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah Gary... that was the point, the laser level puts out a line and getting it aligned to "look around" a curve was a pain... so for me in a couple of places where there are 90 degree 10' diameter curves, it was constant moving of the level... 

So, what I did helped me in my particular situation... Engineer or not, I was getting my inner loop as flat as possible for running live steam. 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Mar 2013 04:05 PM 
Yeah Gary... that was the point, the laser level puts out a line and getting it aligned to "look around" a curve was a pain... so for me in a couple of places where there are 90 degree 10' diameter curves, it was constant moving of the level... 

So, what I did helped me in my particular situation... Engineer or not, I was getting my inner loop as flat as possible for running live steam. 

Greg Greg,

Can you tell me in theory, if the laser "line" would actually curve down? I know it would be so small as to be undetectable, but..............Just curious that's all.

You COULD put the level on some sort of lazy susan and check segments of the curve at various stations of the arc, except that the car would have to be stablized to be accurate.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, well, light is affected by gravitational forces, so it does curve down towards the earth. I don't believe we have the instruments to measure that though ha ha! 

(actually I would guess that someone has detected this!) 

Then, of course, since space is curved, if you had a strong enough one you could beam it out from earth and it would come back and hit the other side of the earth. 

Right, I did consider putting it on a swivel base, but then the base has to be perfectly level in all directions... thus the self leveling laser I bought... 

You've just duplicated my thought process... scary huh? 

greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

many yarn ago, in a time when living in AZ was fresh and new, for Fathers Day - is this Ok - I bought Myself a self leveling laser set, tri-pod and receiver, for Our new property, thinking it would be handy to have for doing building foundation layout work... 

I never realized how much use it would give me...!!! 

Besides the buildings, I have also used it for My R/C runway, .. run on a slight grade - and about 350 ft. long currently, then came the very well spread out model railroad layout. I use it allot for all track work setting grades or checking same! 

They are much handier than might be expected!! 

Ranges I can run and work with run in the hundreds of feet, in one direction! So it has been a great value to Me! 

back to building!! darn wind today.....arrgh... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"You've just duplicated my thought process... scary huh?"

Ain't that the truth!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 16 Mar 2013 06:46 PM 
many yarn ago, in a time when living in AZ was fresh and new, for Fathers Day - is this Ok - I bought Myself a self leveling laser set, tri-pod and receiver, for Our new property, thinking it would be handy to have for doing building foundation layout work... 

I never realized how much use it would give me...!!! 

Besides the buildings, I have also used it for My R/C runway, .. run on a slight grade - and about 350 ft. long currently, then came the very well spread out model railroad layout. I use it allot for all track work setting grades or checking same! 

They are much handier than might be expected!! 

Ranges I can run and work with run in the hundreds of feet, in one direction! So it has been a great value to Me! 

back to building!! darn wind today.....arrgh... 

Dirk - DMS Ry. 


I think Dirk is right. But a good setup is expensive particularly if you get one that's has rotating beam, self leveling and self calibrating You can rent a very good quality complete setup from a well stocked equipment rental shop. Theirs are usually high quality with all the bells, whistles, accessories, rugged and reliable. Lots of reviews and how to's online as well as YouTube demonstrations and training.

Very Important; wear the laser protective glasses or goggles any time you use a laser.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Skill has a "line level" that you can get for around $50 

http://www.amazon.com/SKIL-8202-CL-...8&qid=1363549348&sr=1-28&keywords=laser+level 

I bought a bit more powerful one (we use it for leveling Z scale modules 40-50 feet away) 

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW087K...8&qid=1363549448&sr=1-69&keywords=laser+level 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I probably would not have bought this nice of a unit, 

if not for needing to get buildings right! 

.....I may not have chosen what I have just for hobby use! 

But this allows me to work alone and get the job done.... 

.. today's market has dropped prices allot also!! 

.. Dirk


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I use the Sears digital level, and like it. Displays in any units we need, I do use % since that is the standard trying to keep it under 2% most of the time

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...evelsmv=rr

Was$39 when I got it, now up to $44. I found it a good investment

Jerry

PS- Dont put it across track to investigate derailments when track power on.........


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I use the 10"one like Jerry above, it also has magnetic feet, should I need a longer level, I stick it the steel straight edge of my choice. 

John


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## Bob Lessig (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Guys:

That is just the information that I have been looking for. I just wasn't sure if percent meant the same thing that RR's use to measure "percent grade".

Do you think that a 10" levels is good enough to do 25' to 50' runs. I think I could stick it on my metal 4' level if need be.

Thanks again,


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK Bob - i have to ask!! 

Where are you building your layout, or .... where do you live?? 

THX - Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Bob, 
In low light the laser will probably span those gaps, that and a steady eyeball and some marker stakes and you're good to go. 
If your 4'er is aluminum use zip ties.... 

John


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## Bob Lessig (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm on the western slope of Colorado, between Carbondale and Basalt. I have a sloped lot and need to snake my way up from the lower level to the front yard. I am trying to keep my grade at 1.5%. I think that I can do that because I have only 54" of rise to make the front yard and I figure I will need about 300' of run to keep it close to 1.5%.

Are my calculation close?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ballpark close. 
100' =1.5' rise x 3 =4.5' x12 =54" 

you may want some level areas through curves and for industry.... remember transitions take space too. 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have two Craftsman Laser Track levels from Sears... That is what I used to set all the grades of my layout 

JJ


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

I used all sizes when laying out my railroad, including a four foot one to help set grades.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I happened across this thread again and I think I might not have made my comment clear on the benefits of using a Rotary Laser for laying out an elevated layout. My feeling is using a Line Laser is a lot of wasted effort.

As the picture shows a Rotary Laser puts out a spinning beam rotating at high speed, some 700rpm. The top photo show graphically how rotating beam works. Price range is less than $100 to thousands (top photo below, Rotating Laser only). A kit with everything you need can be (bottom photo below) starting at $400, again to thousands. Manual Leveling costs less than Self Leveling. Both of these below are on Amazon. 


With a Rotating Laser Level you position it once in the center of the layout and read at any location around the layout (using a beam detector or visually) versus reposition the Line Level over and over again. A Rotating Laser can also be used to layout a grade for any distance. 


Very good quality ones can be rented at a well stocked Rental Shop.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys, 

Something I've been using a lot lately is an app for my iphone called Clinometer- level and slope finder. It is great for setting your phone on the track and having it show/tell you what the grade is. When the phone is laid flat it acts like a bubble level. When the phone is on it's edge it works like a clinometer. You can put it on a car and it will read out the slope as it goes. I find it very useful. 

Keith


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## johnsteam (Feb 16, 2008)

% grade I used a 2 foot bubble level and put a 1/4 inch shim under one end and that equaled 1%. A 1 inch rise (or drop) in 100 inches run length is 1% grade, 2 inch rise (or drop) in 100 inches run length is 2% grade . !00 /4 =25 inches, a little more than a 24 inch level, 1"/4= .25 of an inch, 2"/4 = .5 of an inch. Took my 24 inch level and fastened it to a 25 inch straight edge. Hope this helps.
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

True Chris, but $400 is a lot more than $50 and not all layouts are visible from one location, mine sure is not. 

When we set up our modular layout at shows love to have a spinning one, but people at the far ends of the hall complain (floors are not level) and a simple mount that lets the level swivel works ok. 

I don't rent tools for my layout each time I work on track so this would not work for me. 

So, a nice tool, but not for everyone at all times. Maybe best for a small loop where there are no obstructions, or first construction. 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I had zero luck using a rotating laser level on my layout. Simply put, it only worked at night. During daytime, the laser could not be seen. I shifted to using a home made water level...and life became easier.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The more the beam spreads out the weaker it becomes... I have a very strong "line" level and still I will only get about 20 foot in the daylight. 

I like the water level idea... the meniscus made it hard for me to read, so I got something with lower surface tension.... I filled it with scotch, so it was easier to use, and provided emergency thrist quenching! 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Only you would fill a water level with scotch...ya know....UV hurts scotch!!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Trust me Mike, for some weird reason, the number of emergencies seemed to increase to the point that the Scotch level keeps dropping... so the UV never gets a chance ha ha!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

SO, unless I missed something here... 

None of you guys are using a self leveling - rotating laser,.. 

with a ''receiver'',.. 

....... that can work all day long, and reach out several hundred feet......( radius here ) 

?????? 

Dirk


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

and what's the tariff on one of those Dirk? 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

well beyond the money bracket in this discussion, even if I got mine over 11 years ago, and at 1/2 price.... 

searching,.. I see most have not really come down in price either - for a complete set: transmitter/recvr, tri-pod & extension measuring stick... 

Dirk


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

@Cougar,

Are you using the vocal app by Peter Brietling ? I mounted the Sphone in a box car with a wireless mic to read out and record the grade change every 13", then averaged it out by running it in the other direction for a 220' transitioning layout. We got pretty decent scatter plots in less than 10 mins.
App was $0.99, recorder was borrowed from student.










Cheers
Victor


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

very cute there Victor (meant in a positive tone), I was just going to sit back and recalibrate on what I really need these for. 

1. cross level of track, a very common problem leading to derailents 
2. perfectly level track.... I have a small loop that is mostly level but it's not a goal for me. Many other people will have this as a goal, especially a live steam loop. 
3. measurement of the actual grade out of curiosity, yeah, guilty here 
4. measurement of the actual grade in various places to even / increase consistency, yes, a primary use for me because I have steep grades and want to minimize 

By far uses #1 and #4 are my highest priority, so I use a short digital level with sound for #1, so I don't even have to look or twist around to see the display 

For #4 I need to check with a readout, and normally use a laser to sight long distances (10-30 feet). I often use a stick with a ruler on it to see how low or high I am so I can "surface" the track and then measure again. 

I still don't have a great way to easily check the "flatness" of a track on grade especially with curves in it. Maybe Victor's idea would work by just listening as I move a train along a stretch of track.... easier than trying to watch a level on a flat car. 

Greg 

Greg


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## Bob Lessig (Jan 3, 2008)

Guys:

What do you think of this one? I actually need to lay out the obstacles in my yard so that I can lay the track around them, trees, etc. I have to build a retaining wall to bring the yard up to grade but I need to figure where the track is going to go first. I wish I just had an old surveyors level and tripod. I plan on taking many readings and then putting those readings into CadRail so that I can figure out how to get 300' of track in that area before going to the front yard.

Johnson Level & Tool 40-0921 Self Leveling Cross Line Laser Level


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks pretty good, good customer reviews, the only negative was the tripod only 4 foot... for me that would not be a negative, my stuff is all under 4 foot. 

I have a Dewalt one and use it a lot. 

I'd say try it out. Lots of other uses around the home too. 

Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Micro-Mark has a *digital level* that reads in grade percentage for $39.95.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Do any of the digital readouts show on top? I've been thinking of taping a torpedo level to the top so I can get a quick read just to make sure the grade is going the right way. At 2% on the side of a slope sometimes I can't tell. Once the bubble is ok then I can fidget the grade. 

That fancy level wouldn't help me very well, half my upper return loop is in a cut. 

John


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

That's the one Victor--works very well. 
Keith


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't let a 4 foot tripod get to ya guys!! it's not the end of the world... 

if you have an area with lots of grade change, work the lower area first, set a reference stick in the upper end of this area - move the tripod and go pick up off the reference stick and keep going,.. working on the higher area next... 

I have more elevation change than I can work with in any one place here, often times moving the tripod several times...Sometimes I am trying to hold the receiver well above my head to hear the beep - for on grade - but it is too far over my head, then I'm past time to re-locate the tripod and shoot more spots... 

I find it best to write notes while I'm out collecting points of interest on the ROW, measuring grade heights, and distances between them gives me the grades!! simple math calculations and I have my work done. My laser is always handy to grab and go to work also, making it easier to use anytime I need it!! 

And it is one more thing that is fun to use!! 

.....back to plants today, cool out - we bought plants in CA 2 weeks ago during a trip, need to get'm in dirt !! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bob Lessig on 06 Apr 2013 09:04 AM 
Guys:

What do you think of this one? I actually need to lay out the obstacles in my yard so that I can lay the track around them, trees, etc. I have to build a retaining wall to bring the yard up to grade but I need to figure where the track is going to go first. I wish I just had an old surveyors level and tripod. I plan on taking many readings and then putting those readings into CadRail so that I can figure out how to get 300' of track in that area before going to the front yard.

Johnson Level & Tool 40-0921 Self Leveling Cross Line Laser Level



That's the one I have....that isn't bright enough in daylight...even with those red glasses.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can use my Dewalt in bright sunlight for about 6 feet, but I normally use it in late afternook / dusk


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I got a BlackNDecker from Home Depot a number of years ago for $50 as I recall as a Christmas present. Use it all the time for lots of things. Great indoors, but does not work in sun light so I too do dusk or night. 

Greg, how do you get any work done constantly refilling the level? ;-)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a black and decker, it was much less bright than my DeWalt. Gave it away. 










Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

@Greg,

Accurate flatness measurements on curves can be challenging to obtain indeed but certainly a must-have for precision track work. I'd be interested in other tested ways of measuring this too.

In bubble mode after calibrating the Sphone on a flat surface and laying it down on a flat car, turning the gyroscope on helps and the Z-axis reading is then quite useful (e.g. the 1.4% in pic.)

(I usually silence Ms. Sphone's chatter while she constantly reads out the grade - by muting the remote speaker until we get to the desired waypoint at crawl speed and then I do a hard full stop, wait 2 seconds for the bubble to level off, unmute speaker and take a reading. Otherwise 

she gives you the migraine.











Cheers,
Victor


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for telling me about precision track work Victor, ha ha! Never knew it was challenging.









I've got about 800 feet outside with some nasty grades up to 5.5%, try a grade on a curve. 

Much more difficult in ballast than on benchwork or on a table. 

I thought you were on a boat? Ballast on a boat has a different meaning I heard.









Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

We also refer to the juniors as _ballast _since they are confined to reside below decks (a.ka. the luxury dregs, ha ha..). Their only luxury is the smell of fresh diesel vapor during refueling. 
800 feet eh ? That is a layout I aim to exceed someday but for now I can only run from remote unfortunately and when near-shore conditions permit. 

Cheers
Victor


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

850 plus, next extension will take it over 1000, but not braggin, small by many other's standards, but most free floating in ballast, so cross level is often more work than "lengthwise". 

All SS, so as bit more difficult since it's more "springy". 

Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Mar 2013 06:14 PM 
Yeah, well, light is affected by gravitational forces, so it does curve down towards the earth. [/i]I don't believe we have the instruments to measure that though ha ha! 

(actually I would guess that someone has detected this!) 

Then, of course, since space is curved, if you had a strong enough one you could beam it out from earth and it would come back and hit the other side of the earth. 

Right, I did consider putting it on a swivel base, but then the base has to be perfectly level in all directions... thus the self leveling laser I bought... 

You've just duplicated my thought process... scary huh? 

greg
Greg: 
I think you can count on your laser beam staying pretty straight. 
You need an awful lot of gravity to bend light. 

Escape velocity of Earth: approx 17,000 mph. 
Speed of light: 186,000 miles per second.
Speed versus gravitational force. Win to light. It's long gone.


"...space is curved...(laser beam) would come back and hit the other side of the earth." That's an interesting thought. Made me think, the universe is so vast and the time it would take the light to return so great by the time the light did return to earth the earth would long before ceased to exist. So the light would have no where to come back to and just continue forever... But then I got to a little more thinking, would that light even be there if there was no earth or any human left to see it?

I guess the only person that could possibly answer these cosmological questions would be our MLS resident cosmologist and astrogeophysicist[/i], Dwight Ennis.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 08 Apr 2013 05:34 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Mar 2013 06:14 PM 
Yeah, well, light is affected by gravitational forces, so it does curve down towards the earth. [/i]I don't believe we have the instruments to measure that though ha ha! 

(actually I would guess that someone has detected this!) 

Then, of course, since space is curved, if you had a strong enough one you could beam it out from earth and it would come back and hit the other side of the earth. 

Right, I did consider putting it on a swivel base, but then the base has to be perfectly level in all directions... thus the self leveling laser I bought... 

You've just duplicated my thought process... scary huh? 

greg
Greg: 
I think you can count on your laser beam staying pretty straight. 
You need an awful lot of gravity to bend light. 

Escape velocity of Earth: approx 17,000 mph. 
Speed of light: 186,000 miles per second.
Speed versus gravitational force. Win to light. It's long gone.


"...space is curved...(laser beam) would come back and hit the other side of the earth." That's an interesting thought. Made me think, the universe is so vast and the time it would take the light to return so great by the time the light did return to earth the earth would long before ceased to exist. So the light would have no where to come back to and just continue forever... But then I got to a little more thinking, would that light even be there if there was no earth or any human left to see it?

I guess the only person that could possibly answer these cosmological questions would be our MLS resident cosmologist and astrogeophysicist[/i], Dwight Ennis.

Well, that drags into this the question: "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make any noise?... And of course, the corollary, "if a man says something and nobody hears him, is he still wrong?"


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 08 Apr 2013 05:40 PM 


Well, that drags into this the question: "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make any noise?... And of course, the corollary, "if a man says something and nobody hears him, is he still wrong?"



You're being down-to-earth about this. We're way beyond that. Greg launched his light beam into the universe and we're now all stuck out here with the rest of the extraterrestrial soup. There's no turning back. Hope everyone packed a lunch.


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