# Rail Joiner "Grease" Question



## brucebotti (May 30, 2011)

Hi all,
I searched this topic, but I still have questions. I am new to all this and want to set up my first rough layout. I understand the wisdom of using something to lubricate the joiners, but I'm not sure what to use. Most of the topics i read recommended anti / never seize. I've used this on automotive applications (mainly as a lubricant), but I hate the fact that it gets all over everything. Would the clear di-electric grease work as well? It doesn't seem to be anywhere near as messy. 
Thanks,
Bruce


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Bruce, 

You want an grease that will allow electricity through it. I am in the UK and I use copper grease that is used in brake systems. There are others the die is that it assist connectivity, which is the primary purpose of the grease. 

The track joiners will not ensure that connectivity over time: it also allows the joiners to be removed more easily. Naturally the track should be fixed if at all possible on your 'rough' layout. 

I use rail clamps for the switches, ( that is 6 per switch ) and joiners and copper grease with one side of the joiner soldered to the rack on the straights.


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

Electrical grease does not conduct electricity, rather it sort of helps keep out moisture. A tight fitting joiner and a railclamp does an excellent job. Save your money and the time applying "electrical" grease. Regards, Dennis.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What Dennis said. 

In fact, you need to be really careful with greases that are actually conductive, they often cause shorts.. 

I know it might seem counter-intuitive, but even though most greases are a dielectric (insulator), electrical contact still occurs. The main reason for grease is to keep out junk AND halt oxidation by not exposing the surfaces to the air. 

There's several threads on this. 

For rail joiners, a lithium-based grease with moly in it is what I recommend... commonly known as wheel bearing grease, a big tub for cheap at the auto parts store. 

Greg


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Greetings,

The thing that works best is LGB #51010 ( http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/426-51010 ) which is a graphite grease or LGB #51015 ( http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/426-51015 ) Anti-corrosion paste.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but is best in terms of most expensive? (the stuff is $14 for a squeeze tube) (Wheel bearing grease will be a lifetime supply for about 5-8 bucks) 

Don't get upset Andre, just using the word "best" means you are inviting comparison. 

Seriously, it's good stuff, but is there anything in it that makes it better? I have actually found out that it can dry out somewhat, not as long lasting as the wheel bearing grease, which is formulated for more extreme conditions. 

Moly vs. graphite is pretty much a wash (although I prefer moly). 

Really the lubricating qualities are pretty much of no concern, graphite or molybdenum... almost any grease will work. 

One thing I have never tried, but experienced, is "waterproof grease", really tacky and really will keep water out... just really hard to clean off your fingers and clothes... learned about it in college when the plumber came to repair our hot water heating system in the dorm and used my washcloth as a rag... never could wash that stuff out of it! 

Greg


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 
The reason for the gaphite is that it actually conducts eletricty much better than the moly as to buying in a tube I use it in my rc boats as well as my track and I have found that the little tube DOES WORK MUCH BETTER as I keep it in my feild box, also the tube is much easier to get just a little dab where I want it with out it getting every where i don't want it to. 
The 51015 is anti corrosion paste and that keeps the contacts in the plugs from corroding which in a boat can be a problem. Some of my boats pull as much as 50 amps and a little corrosion will make the plugs heat up quite a bit. 
Since they work well in the boat I also use them in my rc airplanes, and live steam locomotives to keep water and corrosion out of the plugs for the servos, reciever and batterys.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, the graphite does not conduct at all in this case. You can prove it to yourself with a meter. 

I'll buy everything else you say, I have some of it. 

The graphite is basically in suspension, so no conductivity. Actually molybdenum conducts better than graphite, but nothing is conducting, only the metal. 

It's really funny in a way, because when LGB was challenged, and the grease was proven to be non-conductive, one person from LGB claimed that the graphite would conduct when the little pieces of it were squashed under pressure. 

(That's actually the last thing you want, because you want (and get) metal to metal.) 

But I respect that you say you get better performance from the grease. 

Regards, Greg


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## brucebotti (May 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the info guys!

Greg, I never thought about wheel bearing grease. I already have a lifetime supply of that. 

Back to my original question....will di-electric grease work (the automotive stuff I use on spark plug boots, electrical connections, etc)? The reason I ask is that its not too expensive and it doesn't appear to be as messy. 

Thanks again for all your assistance!
Bruce


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, other than real conductive greases, which are usually silver or copper laden, ALL greases are dielectric. The stuff commonly referred as di-electric auto grease is normally silicon grease, not great lubricating capability, just a grease that lasts a long time, does not run, does not dry out and (like all greases) keeps out air and moisture. 

I'd recommend though, a grease with more lubrication, that's designed to be slippery. In my experience it works better when pulling stuff apart later. Thus, the greases with a slippery additive like graphite, moly or both. 

Greg


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## brucebotti (May 30, 2011)

I tried this reply three times yesterday, but it never showed up. Hopefully the fourth time is the charm. 

Thanks again for all the assistance. It looks like I will be going with wheel bearing grease. I like it when one of the best alternatives is also the cheaapest! Too bad all of G Scale isn't like that. 

Bruce 

Ps. Have a wonderful Easter everyone. If you don't celebrate Easter, have a wonderful day.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I use a product called NOALOX. 
It can be bought at Home Depot for about $5 for a 5oz bottle. 
I did my entire layout and redid it when I switched to Nickel Plated brass track, and even dented the bottle.
Axel told me about it. He uses it on all his commercial installs, He said it lasts about 3-5 years.

I can tell you that after 1 year, when I replaced my stainless with NPB track, I had no corrosion or oxidation in any of my rail connections whatsoever.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I believe Axel heard about it from me. I am still doing long term testing to see if it works better than good old moly/graphite grease. 

One thing is that it "washes out" of joiners more easily than the normal grease. Does it stay in well enough? Will be pulling some track apart this summer to compare. 

It's not formulated for brass or anything else than aluminum, so it's unclear if it has any unique chemical properties that give it an advantage over grease. 

Greg


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i started using lithium grease last year 
i like it 
it helps joiners from corroding and breaking (ive had this problem seldomly- i use LGB track 
what i like is it keeps out 'micro grit' after rains and watering 

its messy and gooey-the key really is nice clean joineres to start and tight fit- 

however, i plan on going to over the joiner clamps 

the downside of grease is stuff sticks to it-so you really need to have your track set and stable-and not have gaps in between rail joints 

for the price of a tub-id suggest you give it a go and see how you fare 
and as noted, less is more-just enough to coat the inside-think of it like bathtub calking-just enough to seal out moisture, no more


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve, I'd like to talk you out of your over the joiner clamps. The rail joiners do not have very good contact with the rails. Clamps should contact the rails if you want electricity to flow through them. 

Joiners actually help channel dirt down to wedge between the rails and joiner. Clamps contact the base with a much better contact area and just work better. 

Please consider dumping the joiners and replacing with "normal" clamps. 

On most track (LGB is tougher) it's easy to remove the joiner and add a clamp without moving the track at all. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 Apr 2012 08:39 PM 
Steve, I'd like to talk you out of your over the joiner clamps. The rail joiners do not have very good contact with the rails. Clamps should contact the rails if you want electricity to flow through them. 

Joiners actually help channel dirt down to wedge between the rails and joiner. Clamps contact the base with a much better contact area and just work better. 

Please consider dumping the joiners and replacing with "normal" clamps. 

On most track (*LGB is tougher*) it's easy to remove the joiner and add a clamp without moving the track at all. 

Regards, Greg You can say that one again. I bought some used LGB turnouts last year and couldn't believe how hard it was to get the rail joiners off. I didn't realize at first that they have a little tab that sticks up into the ties. I would have just used over the joiner clamps but that would have defeated my purpose of using the clamps. I use jumpers around all my rail joints except at turnouts. There I use rail clamps to make it easier to pull out the turnout if I have a problem with it. And the clamp takes the place of the jumper to give me good continuity. 
Bob


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to laugh, the first time I tried to pull a LGB joiner off I thought I was going crazy, forgot to look underneath! 

They make it really difficult. I can remove aristo/usat ones easily with a small screwdriver. I wind up bending them open, and then twisting them under the rail and out, but I throw them away anyways. 

I've seen too many joiners crack, or not fit right, etc. so they are junk to me. (as compared to a quality rail clamp). 

Greg


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

I have used a copper version of Noalox for 5 or so years now. I had to lift some track to make some changes a few months ago so I took some photos.


Below is what the joiners looked like on removal, you can see where the brass has oxidised externally, and where the contact points are inside the clamps.











And a close up after removing the joint compound with solvent. I wanted to see how well the oxidation was reduced. Good results.











I run 300' of brass with a single feeder, no conductivity issues with proper precautions at rail joins that have been set out above by others.

Cheers
Neil


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's certainly good results. Do you have the part number for that version of NoAlox? Their site is a bit confusing sometimes, and no one stocks the non-aluminum stuff here locally. 

Were those indeed sitting for 5 years? Great data for all of us. 

Greg


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Greg, 

I just checked some dates, those particular clamps have been in service a touch under 3 years. I can't help with a part number - its not Noalox brand, I used that so you guys Stateside would have a frame of reference. Apologies if its thrown you off.

I use "EP Joint Seal" used in compression joints for electrical transmission applications. There's a squeeze bottle supplied in each kit. Its specified for Cu but its also used for bolted tinned Cu / gunmetal connections. 

As far as I know its only available through the trade counter at electrical wholesalers, at least in NZ. Here is a link to the stuff I use - there must be a version of this over your way (unless you guys have figured out microwave power transmission?







).


*Electropar* 

Cheers
Neil


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So you use the white stuff with titanium oxide in it? 

Interesting that they use titanium oxide for predominantly copper connections and zinc for predominantly aluminum ones... 

Thanks Neil... will follow up... 

update: did more reading... several publications use the same chemicals... Burndy Penetrox E seems to be the stuff 

*http://www.burndy.com/products/prod...bitor.aspx* 


Greg


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

What would be a good grease for SS track using SS clamps?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's what I'm doing... although since it does not oxidize the same way, any lithium grease should work. 

Since most are SS screws in SS clamps, you also need to think about seizing (same metals can sieze)... so anti-sieze would probably be the ultimate, but messy. You can get anti-sieze at any auto parts store. 

Greg


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

thanks greg, being lazy it was my idea 
for over the joiners 

-ill go either for real clamps or drill connecting screws for jumpers-dont want to de-nude all of my lgb track of joiners though


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a follow up... I do talk to a lot of people, mostly off forum, private email. 

The vast majority of people are unhappy with the over the joiner clamps and wished they had gotten the regular clamps. 

Greg


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