# Massoth vs Zimo: Pros and Cons for each



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

Hello,

I have decided on DCC for my Large scale operations and have narrowed down my system preference to either Massoth or Zimo - only. For those who have first-hand knowledge and experience with these two manufacturers please give me your feedback. 

Thanks


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll put in my $.02Cdn: 

With either of the two you have narrowed it down to you will end up with an excellent system. I chose Massoth because of the handheld. I still think it's by far the most user friendly, intuitive controller out there. If I was going to be the only one running the trains, I might have chosen the Zimo, but with kids & visitors the rotary throttle and layout of the controller won me over. Other reasons I chose Massoth were because I am using the MTSIII central station, which I got for an incredible price at the time when LGB was having trouble, plus all my locomotives are LGB with either onboard decoders or Massoth sound decoders. So the transition from DC to DCC took minutes and it's worked flawlessly ever since. I've tried all the other brands controllers, and didn't like any of them nearly as much as the Navigator, though the Zimo handheld is not as bad as most and the upcoming touch screen version should be a big improvement. All that being said, Zimo is undisputedly the most feature rich system, and if you can live with the price of the central system and their handhelds (their sound decoders are already an excellent value) and you are going to be the primary user of the system, then I would steer you towards Zimo. Since you can use anyones decoders, the handheld and central system become the real decision points and so I would say number one priority is to get some hands on time with both controllers to see which you like best. 
I will also add that support from Massoth has been excellent, and I know that now that Train-Li carries Zimo support will be excellent from them as well. 
If there are specific items you want compared let us know. 

Keith


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I am the representative of ZIMO, and I wanted to make this clear upfront. But similar to the Hair-club for Men commercial "I am not only the distributor, but also a user"







.

Many moons ago, I looked into equipping my layout with DCC (I had upfront ruled out any other method). I ended up choosing what I considered the best system and it has never disappointed me. For all this years I have been able to consistently update the micro-codes to keep up with all the latest feature sets. Starting with MX31 generation (soon MX32 will be out), I can clearly give you operational advantages:

1. I like the hand held that allows me to operate my engines via a single hand operation. The handheld sits comfortable in my palm and my thumb can easily reach the slider to speed up or slow down with my engines. And up and down slider give me instantaneously a visual of the current speed e.g. 50% when the throttle is half way up. I consider this a stronger visual feedback then a round dial. The round dial also requires a two hand operation

2. When you switch from one engine to another ZIMO offer the LED "running bar" indicating that the slider needs to be adjusted upwards or downwards to match the last speed setting for the engine you just switched over to. This unique features makes it 100% clear with what speed the engines are running, before you change any operation parameters. The bar will indicate through a change in color when you have matched the original speed setting.

3. Tri-Color LED indicate the current F-key setting. One color (yellow) is for all F-keys of the current engine operation, two color (red/green) for the status setting of the current switch, so no matter where you are you know if a switch if straight or diverted. 20 function support. F1-F11 are immediately accessible, F12-F20 are accessible with the shift key.

4. Up to 8 switches can be identified under one acronym, e.g Brusio (thats one of my own examples). This features allows you to use F0-F7 to control in that area (Brusio) 8 switches without entering each address and activated it, or requiring to go through a round Robin buffer to get to the needed address. Please note this is not referring to switching ladders (which is a different function all together and fuly supported in ZIMO as well), but this applies to your need to have a manual shunting operation were you might in one run traverse one switch then another not normally programmed into ladders. This is so helpful compared to entering the addresses. It has reduced in my layout the switches into three groups (Campocologno, Brusio, and Ospizio Bernina).

5. Speaking for switching/shunting. There is a single button for switching operation. If an engine does track duty and switching operation then with this button you can half the top speed instantaneously giving your throttle therefore in the applicable speed range double the "sensitivty" which is important for shunting.

6. Speaking of single key accessibility. Many day to day needed functions are just one keystroke away. Good examples include: shunting, manual mode (you can take a trains out of automatic mode - e.g. computer control - and handle it directly, and in reverse hand it back over to computer mode), Take over mode (if two or more handhelds are used then entering or recalling the loco address will not give the non active user immediate control, but a blinking engine number will indicate that the engine is controlled by another hand held, and the Take Over button will be required to gain control. Simple switch between Engine control and Switch control each represented by an individual button.

7. Password protected guest mode, that will eliminate to use the cab for all of its capabilities, but restricts users to only the basic operating function.

8. 2 main operating functions (besides Guest), Operator and Expert with different levels of display information.

9. Easy programming without going through hierarchies of menu architectures

AND NOW TGHE NEW FEATURES FOR THE NEW MX32 (and by the way this is worth the wait)

10. Full OLED touch screen color screen allowing to display you engines as pictures rather then just name or address. Many functions will be touch screen interactive. Great speedometer with direct feedback (railcom) of the engines actually performance. Symbols (engines and switching yards are customizable.

11. Implementation RailCom the bi-directional communication.

12. Xbee communication standard for the RF transmission. Wide range (up to a 1000' line of sight), repeater functionality possible where necessary (e.g. around a house).

13. Clear text programming

14 Future proof system technology since it uses today's chipsets. This is a brand new generation.

15. Powerful and expandable central station.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do either/both the Massoth and Ziimo do "serial" function commands (for the older LGB decoders)? 

This question comes up often. 

Thanks, Greg


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

Keith and Axel, thank you very much for that valuable insight; your comments have been extremely helpful. I have a couple questions for clarification purposes: 

1. I love what I have read about the Zimo sound decoders - I especially like what can be accomplished with my Big Boy. Can Zimo *sound *decoders be used in conjunction with a Massoth engine on-board decoder and vice versa? 

2. Axel, I really like the features of the coming controller that you describe; could it be used to control locomotives in a Massoth system? 

It really is a close toss-up for me at the moment with the slightest edge going to Zimo, pending review of the new controller. 

-Thanks again


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

One more clarification question. Is it correct that cab and central station be of the same manufacturer; i.e. Zimo cab with Zimo central station - Massoth cab with Massoth central station?


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Do either/both the Massoth and Ziimo do "serial" function commands (for the older LGB decoders)? 

I'm not sure about Zimo, but yes Massoth can generate both serial and parallel commands and this can be set (as long as the # of speed steps) for each locomotive. So once it's set up on the handheld, you never have to worry about it again. I'm 99% sure Zimo can generate the serial pulse but not sure how it's dealth with--I'm sure Axel can answer that one. 

1. I love what I have read about the Zimo sound decoders - I especially like what can be accomplished with my Big Boy. Can Zimo sound decoders be used in conjunction with a Massoth engine on-board decoder and vice versa? 



If you use a Zimo sound decoder, than you wouldn't need any other decoder onboard as the sound decoder runs the motors/lights etc. too. Similarly this also applies if you wanted to use a Massoth sound decoder. That's the beauty of DCC-- you can mix and match decoders. 

2. Axel, I really like the features of the coming controller that you describe; could it be used to control locomotives in a Massoth system? 

Unfortunately only Zimo controllers will control a Zimo base system, and they won't control a Massoth central station. Massoth controllers, however, can be used to run several other systems (ie. LGB MTSIII, Lenz...)--check their website for the other makes. 

Keith


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

If you use a Zimo sound decoder, than you wouldn't need any other decoder onboard as the sound decoder runs the motors/lights etc. too. Similarly this also applies if you wanted to use a Massoth sound decoder. That's the beauty of DCC-- you can mix and match decoders. 

Excellent! 

Unfortunately only Zimo controllers will control a Zimo base system, and they won't control a Massoth central station. Massoth controllers, however, can be used to run several other systems (ie. LGB MTSIII, Lenz...)--check their website for the other makes. 

Verrrrrrry interesting. Well I think I need to see this new Zimo controller before I make a committment to purchase a system but having Massoth's flexibility sure appeals to me. 

Thanks again!


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Regarding the Massoth flexibility, bear in mind that whenever one controller is used to run someone else's base station, there are likely to be some limits on functionality. For example, for me using the Navigator with the LGB MTSIII, I am limited to 28 speed steps because of the MTS central station, even though the controller can do more than that, for example. In fact these days there are some guys running their Massoth systems via computer and i-phone! So I guess what I'm saying is that by the time you have narrowed it down to Massoth or Zimo, you are probably wanting all the features that either one can offer, and for that you should probably stick with their own base stations. I would strongly recommend you have a read through the online manuals for both systems (if you haven't already done so), as that will give you a really good idea of the strengths/weaknesses of the two systems. For example you may like the way upgrades are done with one but maybe not with the other etc. 

Keith


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

Regarding the Massoth flexibility, bear in mind that whenever one controller is used to run someone else's base station, there are likely to be some limits on functionality. For example, for me using the Navigator with the LGB MTSIII, I am limited to 28 speed steps because of the MTS central station, even though the controller can do more than that, for example. In fact these days there are some guys running their Massoth systems via computer and i-phone! So I guess what I'm saying is that by the time you have narrowed it down to Massoth or Zimo, you are probably wanting all the features that either one can offer, and for that you should probably stick with their own base stations. * I would strongly recommend you have a read through the online manuals for both systems (if you haven't already done so), as that will give you a really good idea of the strengths/weaknesses of the two systems.* For example you may like the way upgrades are done with one but maybe not with the other etc. 

Yep, I agree. I have already downloaded manuals for the controllers and the base stations for both and I found some excellent DCC topic web pages on the net. I have a lot of reading to do and there will certainly be a steep learning curve - but nothing I can't handle. 

Thanks! 

Arthur


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like you're off to a really good start. Good luck with your research Arthur! Time invested in reading now will pay dividends later. 

Keith


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The current Zimo station will support 14 speed steps and serail interfaces (pulse chain) of the older MTS system.


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Train-Li-USA offers free evaluation of the ZIMO system. This ensures that you can see first hand all the capabilities. 

All DCC decoder can be controlled by any system. The question is to what degree can one take advantage of the "advanced" features.

DCC is a standard that leaves room for manufacturer proprietary extensions. All standard functions are among all systems integrated. Proprietary functions are only integrated within one vendors product range, unless another vendor choose to implement the identical function. So interoperability is the big plus for DCC (as you already knew).

It is important to learn about all the features and their benefits upfront, because investing into a system should be a one time event. I choose ZIMO because I knew that within the capabilities of DCC I would have no wish left open, if I choose to implement this.

As far as price goes, ZIMO is moving to an attractive price level with the new technology. Due to the latest generation of chip sets and off-the-shelf wireless technology we anticipate a starter set to run around $1,000. This is far below the old technology ($1,800- $2,000).

And in my honest opinion, that a handheld can be connected to another system (e.g. Roco, Fleischmann, Uhlenrbrook, Lenz) has little value, because once one is set with his own setup it is very unlikely that you pack up your handheld and find e.g. a Roco system with friends that allows you to use this, plus in order to accomplish this you have to make another investment of an additional wireless receiver to operate on the Lenz systems (Massoth part# 8130501/8130500 @ $208) and the MTS transducer is $110.90.

But information gathering is good. And as I stated in the beginning testing is even better. Nothing beats your own hands-on experience.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I choose ZIMO because I knew that within the capabilities of DCC I would have no wish left open, if I choose to implement this. 


Axel makes a very good point here. If you think you are the kind of person who thrives on the challenge of learning everything there is to know about something new to you, then you may not be satisfied at the end of the day knowing you have a system that can only do 80% of what some other system can. Of course if you know ahead of time you'll only need the features that make up that 80% then you're all set. Many approach DCC strictly only in terms of budget and functionality required to suit their railroad and that's the end of it. For these people the options are many. But for those who will want to make the whole DCC/electronics experience an integral part of their hobby then Zimo is definitely way out in front, or at least will be with the new system. 
So I guess what I'm trying to say is you have to look at yourself as much as you need to look do the research and look at your actual requirements to know what you will be happy with long term. As Axel said, he wanted a system where the system wouldn't limit what he could potentially do. The hands on experience will hopefully just confirm your feelings and research. 

Keith


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

But for those who will want to make the whole DCC/electronics experience an integral part of their hobby then Zimo is definitely way out in front, or at least will be with the new system. As Axel said, he wanted a system where the system wouldn't limit what he could potentially do. The hands on experience will hopefully just confirm your feelings and research. 

Very well put and I'm definitely the type of person "_ who thrives on the challenge of learning everything there is to know about something new_". 

Axel, I will give you a call to discuss the details of the new controller. 

Thanks guys!


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Very well put and I'm definitely the type of person " who thrives on the challenge of learning everything there is to know about something new". 

I kind of thought so--glad to have helped. I'm definitely that way too. 

Keith


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Give me a call tomorrow (Friday) becasuse I am about to rush out to an outside meeting.

regards
Axel


----------



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 04 Nov 2010 08:02 AM 
Give me a call tomorrow (Friday) becasuse I am about to rush out to an outside meeting.

regards
Axel

Thanks for taking the time to speak with me. See you in the Spring!

Arthur


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

You are quite welcome. Any time.


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Axel, what will be the AMP rating be of the new base station.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I called him on this, the 20 amp booster is just a dream at the moment. 

I got on the phone as soon as I saw the ad in GR. 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The Zimo website says the new base station will do 8A continuous, 12A momentary peak, if my translation is correct. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's even worse news... drat.. the NCE "10 amp" system will put out 10 amps all day.... I know this for sure.... I have a rampmeter on mine, and I have one particular train that draws 9.97 amps, per the readout. 

The continuous rating is what should be advertised. Momentary peak means nothing without a duration in seconds, and even then what utility is it? 

Hmm.. if this is true, I have been waiting for nothing... 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

9.97A for one train? Holy Crazyamps Batman! I can run at least three double motored RhB trains with my 5A MTSIII!! That must be one big multi-engined heavy passenger consist eh Greg! Seriously, though, why does it matter what the output of the base station is? Can't you add boosters as necessary, or are saying because it's all in one train the booster has to be able to handle that whole load by itself within one block? Since Zimo has a high output version of their current base (2x8A), then I would think they would retain a similar option with the new one. As a side question, is it possible to mix and match boosters from different companies? If you can then you could use the Massoth 12A booster, and I think there are others out there too. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Remember that USAT lighted streamliners "count" as part of the train! 

Yep, 3 locos drawing about 4 amps, the rest lights in the streamliners. 

It's more than just one train exceeding the capability of the booster, you cannot guarantee (at least on my layout) that different trains are on different boosters. Right now, my mainline is running from one booster, but I run 2 trains at a time on it. I can exceed the booster rating of 10 amps with 2 trains. 

Splitting that into 2 power districts is not the perfect solution, how do I guarantee that there are never 2 trains in one 10 amp district? You can't and enjoy running trains, not watching which district you are in. That is no fun for sure. 

Of course, I am modifying my USAT cars to LED to pull a lot fewer amps, then 2 "heavy" trains will "fit" in 10 amps, but out of the box, you can use up 10 amps quick with a lighted passenger train, and only 8 cars! 

I'm hoping that Zimo will have something a bit higher, but I am "hearing" that the 2 x 8 amps does NOT equal 16 amps, but 12 amps. That is so little more than 10 amps, it's really not worth the effort. 

Yes, most boosters can be run from virtually any command station, but some of the more sophisticated features might not work, for instance, I need to research how my NCE would work, specifically the emergency stop button that can actually shut off the booster output. Axle tells me that this is a universal command, but I'm not educated enough to know this, I need to talk to NCE to see what happens. 

Lots to learn, looking at 15 amps or more to want to change from my NCE boosters. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

"Hearing"

I don't know anything about "hearing". There is planned HS version of the central station which is a 16A/20A unit. It basically runs two DCC outputs in parallel and therefore will have double the capacity. In addition you can always bus the DCC outputs from central station and boosters and create a 100A bus if you like.

On the other hand the first thing I would do is convert the darn lightbulbs into modern LED lights.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, I'm getting confused. 

1. What is the continuous amp output of the currently available booster? 
2. The "next" one coming out is how many amps continuous? Is this the 2 x 8 amp or 1 x 8 amp? 
3. Unless I am mentally impaired, from our last conversation, there is a "planned" 20 amp version, but no schedule/firm date and it's NOT the "next" one to be released. 

Thanks in advance for the clarification. 

Greg


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

We talked about boosters. The largest booster (Heller) today on the market is a 15A booster. As far as pure ZIMO components the ZIMO system central station is also the Powerhouse.

The first central station to come out is 8/12 and the second thereafter is 16/24. ZIMO clearly states that two MX10 can drive a joint output for a total of 20A DCC bus. Futher investigation on my part showed that you can actually play that game even higher e,g, 5 MX10 will give you 50 A bus. The bus concept avoids segmanetation of your layout.

Beyond the MX10 was also once on ZIMO info list the MX100 which was supposed to have 20A base output. Right now I thing all things are concentrated on the MX10 and then we will see more.

Sorry for the confusion - but these engineers.....


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got it, so to be triple sure, and to just state continuous power outputs: 

We are waiting for the "new" 8 amp unit or it is available now? 

The 16 amp unit (where dual 8 amp outputs are paralleled) will be next, but no firm schedule, right? 

What are the model numbers of these? 

The MX10 has not firm schedule either right? 

Not trying to give you a hard time, just want to know what is actual now, what is next and the far-off stuff needs to be identified as such. 

I'm really interested because I need more amps. 

Thanks, Greg


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, you need more LED's


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but still does not help running 2 trains in same power district that are each near 5 amps... You can use up close to 10 amps easily with 2 trains and long trains and heavy grades. 

Another reason for more amps: my switchyard might have 4 locos moving in it at a time, or 4 consists. Again, easy to get near 10 amps. 

Greg


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Dates, Dates, Dates - everybody wants dates









Let me put it the following way = the roads of the world are always paved with good intentions









ZIMO tells me 
MX32 any day
MX10 Spring 2010
MX32FU spring
MX10FU spring

If I get any more detail then I let you know.


----------

