# Final A/C Consolidation and Pacific Samples to Chicago



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Anyone got pictures Yet............... LOL


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

We be waiting on Tom ruby to post as Mr Polk put the ball in his court. However I not holding my breath







. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 22 Oct 2010 05:32 PM 
We be waiting on Tom ruby to post as Mr Polk put the ball in his court. However I not holding my breath







. Later RJD 

I would agree HE HE HE

And here we are on Sat and still no photos









Come on fellas get those cameras out please.









You BETCHA LOL


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmmmm Sunday still no pictures ???????


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, Aristo must be too poor to buy a camera, and then online asks Tom Ruby to take a picture. I feel a rush of a lot of overheated air surrounding that announcement. One person had the guts to say: 

"If it were my product that everyone was waiting on, the pictures would be up already. In this day and age, that can take place very easily. Lewis, I'm not being mean or anything, but, ya'll have alot riding on this model. Wouldn't it be prudent to have arrangements made to post pics? I'm sure the Aristo booth is not sitting all by itself in Chicago.....If I were there, the pics would be posted by now." 

He'll probably be shot by an angry mob on the site. 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

HAAAA


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

And here we are on Monday and still no photos

Hmm i wonder if its a Myth ????????


Starting to think so............


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, to be fair, Aristo did not take any pictures, shipped right to show... and I guess no one from Aristo at show, so Lewis asked poor Tom to take pictures, so we gotta cut Tom some slack, it was a surprise to him. We don't even know if Tom went there. 

I hope Scott gets his way and gets the Consolidation out near the end of the year. 

Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Oct 2010 09:02 AM 
Well, to be fair, Aristo did not take any pictures, shipped right to show... and I guess no one from Aristo at show, so Lewis asked poor Tom to take pictures, so we gotta cut Tom some slack, it was a surprise to him. We don't even know if Tom went there. 

I hope Scott gets his way and gets the Consolidation out near the end of the year. 

Greg 



I spoke with Scott at the show a few weks ago,

He said the Consolidation would be out the 1st Quarter of next year

I like Scott, seems to be a straight shooter and no B.S. you Betcha LOL









And i for one would just like to see a painted sample

Based on the mock up they've had had at the past shows

They've stepped up there game as far as detail on the loco









Looks very good i might add You betcha









Hope they follow thru and make sure that the QC is checked on this model

cause Im thinkin this is a very important release for them and I 

hope they dont mess it up, it would be ashame









Word of advise to Aristocraft would be

Make sure wheels wont come loose









Wiring is correct the 1st time

Make sure they order blind drivers with the locos

And make sure you order some extra DAM parts









This is a chance for Aristo to correct all the issues its had in the past with its old Steamers

I hope they get it rite this time out of the box

Maybe for this model they should Hire someone to over see there interests in China









And i say this cause i care


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Tom said he was going Sunday but also mentioned that he hope to remember the camera. Bet he forgot. Ya just can't believe that they would have an unman booth at the show. Gee give me a break folks. Guess we need to buy someone at AC a camera or hire George back







Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not "King George" ! 

Even the Aristo employees did not like him. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh did I say that.







Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

RJ,
2 wrongs dont make a rite LOL









You BETCHA


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 25 Oct 2010 04:07 PM 
RJ,
2 wrongs dont make a rite LOL









You BETCHA


















As written in a recent "Family Circus" cartoon .... well, then how many does it take?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think after 2 wrongs, even more just takes you further "downhill". 

Anyway, Nick and I (and many others) have a little history with "King George" I have to state he's not missed. He was a lot "bigger"/"taller" behind the keyboard, and I'll leave it at that. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom posted them on Aristo site. 
Go over and share some views Greg.. of the new product.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a nice looking loco, and the molded on detail is finer and better than any previous Aristo steamer. There seem to be more separate detail parts. I've always said that this is the loco that needs to come out next. I will buy at least one. 

The drivetrain is a known quantity, so we have learned to deal with any issues that pop up. 

The con's I see is putting the socket in the tender, looks like it won't be very fun putting a large speaker there, especially with the tender weight also covering the tender floor. Good thing I don't do battery, I would be PO'd. 
(picture by Tom Ruby)









I also don't like the look of the connecting plug, would like something a bit more robust, but then you get it bigger, I would prefer a 2 x 4 arrangement over a 1 x 8. This makes the plug more robust and easier to use in my opinion. The wires on the ends look a bit fragile. (Think of the Mikado live steam plug wires and the problems that have ensued)
(picture by Tom Ruby)









But I can deal with and change any of the electrical issues, the most important thing is how it looks and it looks great. That detail on top of the boiler just ahead of the cab is very nice. 
(picture by Tom Ruby)










I do think they could have found a way to secure the front steps without a 6 inch diameter screw! This may not be the final component though, since it's not painted, it might still be a prototype part. 
(picture by Tom Ruby)










I'd like to see the valve train "fixed" to see what that part really looks like, I hope this is not an indicator of a fragile component. 
(picture by Tom Ruby)









This is the product that will make Aristo money. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree, Greg, this looks like a winner.

In thinking about sound units, I wonder where Aristo has put their standard speaker. Seems like every single locomotive has come with a speaker installed. Perhaps by moving the electronics to the tender, they put the speaker in the boiler somewhere. My LGB mikado has a speaker mounted in the middle of the boiler. Maybe the speaker is behind the board out of sight in the tender. 


I really like the detail on this locomotive. I wonder if that pilot will be able to fit on the mikado/pacific front.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Speaker has to be under the circuit board, my concern is not enough space for a "manly" speaker. 

Guess which one is the stock speaker. Guess which one sounds way better.










Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

That looks just like the speakers I bought from QSI for most all of my custom speaker installs, Bods Speaker installs

I use the same speakers for the tenders of all my steam equipment as well. It looks like the new runs of the Mallet, Pacific, and now the Consolidation will be more work to convert than they used to be.

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Being track power, I am biased towards having the shortest path from the rails to the motor. I was thrilled when the mikado and the mallet had the socket in the boiler. 

Bachmann kind of invaded the tenders in their newer locos with the socket taking too much space and not leaving enough for the speaker. 

I can tell you there's quite a difference between the sounds of the above. That's a speaker from litchfield, but I believe Tony's (QSI) sells the same speaker. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Wow, those are some big speakers you got there. The phoenix speakers I use are somewhere in between those two. I'm using a stock aristo speaker in my B unit, and it sounds pretty good. 

The tender on this engine is small, so I don't know where I'll fit the Phoenix speaker, but my sense is that if all the electronics are in the tender, then the place for me to install a speaker is in the locomotive anyway.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's not a big speaker, the stock Aristo speaker is tiny, very thin. 

I have stated that I am amazed at the sound that little speaker produces, but what a difference in the $11 speaker from Litchfield / Tony's. 

You cannot get much bass from a speaker in the loco, because you are now stuck using a speaker even SMALLER than the stock one, about 2". 

Only systems like the 1:1 sound system by Leonard Kerns will help there. 

Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. When the final version is in our hands, then we should dive back in to this. We're guessing and making assumptions. I'm talking about where the aristo speaker is...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Well the painted version looks good........

Detail show up better, seems aristos getting the message









I just hope the Drver and wiring issues will be resolved before delivery....









I dont like the air gap under the boiler, Yes i know its prototypical.....

I wonder if the engineer and fireman will be included ? that would be a nice touch...

Also wonder how Kadee freindly it will be.......................... LOL

You Betcha









Hopefully this will be made before the others














Cowcatcher looks like the mikado one...........


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark's got a good point! The main thing is that they've got a prototype out there to show us! The thing's real and not just a picture on the back of a magazine! Are there some things that, from this early showing, need to be addressed according to the critiques? Probably but that is why they have prototypes! Now, if they had said "production model" then we might have a problem! Until then let's give Aristo the benefit of the doubt and the time they need to get this puppy right! I sincerely hope Aristo took notice of what Bachmann did wrong with it's introduction of the K-27 and learned from their mistakes! The whole hobby needs this to be a grand success and not another dissapointing "what could have been"....


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 26 Oct 2010 09:47 AM 
Mark's got a good point! The main thing is that they've got a prototype out there to show us! The thing's real and not just a picture on the back of a magazine! Are there some things that, from this early showing, need to be addressed according to the critiques? Probably but that is why they have prototypes! Now, if they had said "production model" then we might have a problem! Until then let's give Aristo the benefit of the doubt and the time they need to get this puppy right! I sincerely hope Aristo took notice of what Bachmann did wrong with it's introduction of the K-27 and learned from their mistakes! The whole hobby needs this to be a grand success and not another dissapointing "what could have been"....


UMMMMM Uncle Lewy did say this was the final prototype.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Uhh... yes, I am talking about where the Aristo speaker is also... what is the confusion? 

Umm... the picture shows where the socket is, it's in the tender. 

The size of the board is clear, and the tender also. So, a tall speaker will no longer fit. (we know the thickness of a Revolution receiver. 

This does not take a rocket scientist to figure out. 

When we DO get our hands on one, then if and how much the socket can be moved to accommodate a larger speaker can be ascertained. 

But it's very clear that it will not be basically "unrestricted" as before. 

You know, Aristo changed something. It has consequences, some good and some bad. The good stuff is great although it does not seem to benefit me as a customer at all.

The bad stuff looks like it will surely affect me, and I want to start thinking about how to overcome these issues.

I'm buying the loco, but I'm not on my knees thanking Aristo for making my install harder. 


Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

You are right, this isn't rocket science. These are trains. (sorry, I couldn't resist that pun!!  )

All I meant in my previous post was that, so far, none of the shots shows a speaker. Maybe I am wrong and there is no speaker included. Maybe it is a square one like in the RS-3 and is behind the board in the tender out of sight. Maybe it is in the locomotive itself. That's what I meant by guessing. No confusion, just no further information.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Lewis confirmed on his site that the speaker is in the tender. OK, your concerns about space are validated!


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Just a thought for all steam MFGs..... I had bashed my Mark-1 pacific and put the speaker directly behind the smokebox. Granted I never did get around to hooking it up, but the point is, it fit wihout any butchery. 

One would think, with the drive for prototypicalness these days, that demands for an engine mounted speaker would be through the roof.

We'll see what happens.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

What makes us think the speaker has to be under the socket? The Aristo C-16 tender is very small, with a similarly sized socket PC board and speaker. The speaker (a rectangular affair around 3" x 2" x 1.5"ish) behind the board. I saw both locos (the C-16 and 1:29 2-8-0) on display a few years ago, and trust me--the 1:29 2-8-0's tender is bigger. No reason to believe you can't easily fit a decent sized speaker in there. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not exactly sure what your point is, so reading literally, I think you are saying that you could put the speaker somewhere else without relocating the socket. 

I agree, a small crappy speaker will fit almost anywhere. "the" speaker with no constraints like size can go anwyhere. 

As I mentioned above and put up a picture, what I could do easily before, will not be possible now without major surgery I believe. 

If you believe the picture I showed is a "decent sized speaker", then you CANNOT easily fit THAT one in there without major surgery. 

If you believe that that's an unfair expectation for speaker size, then I cannot argue with your perception of what "decent sized" is... it's your perception. 

But for me, that's a small speaker, I like them bigger for more bass, just like cars and "no substitute for cubic inches" there's no substitute for cone diameter when it comes to bass reproduction. 

I put a 4" speaker in a K4 and it kicks butt! 

Regards, Greg


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Oct 2010 07:47 PM 
It's a nice looking loco, and the molded on detail is finer and better than any previous Aristo steamer. There seem to be more separate detail parts. I've always said that this is the loco that needs to come out next. I will buy at least one. 




This is the product that will make Aristo money. 

Regards, Greg 



I agree completely.
Looks very nice, I will most definitely get one at some point


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Something is not right with the drivers. Even the blind ones, the "tires" are way too thin looking....along with the weights. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4298804829/sizes/o/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

None of the pictures have ever shown the drivers that look "finished". This "final" sample still has what appear to be unfinished pieces, the valve gear, the drivers and the front steps. 

But, it seems that the main molds and detail items are finished. The target date is still first quarter 2011, and it's my guess is that it will be after the Chinese new year. They still need to deliver the Pacific and Mallet before that (and I thought the PCC car, but that has gone silent). 

It's progress. I have a guess that since the number of blind drivers changed recently, that maybe they are discovering what other manufacturers have, that if you leave the driver diameter the same on the blind ones, you can have problems on sharp curves with the drivers dropping below the rails. Again, my GUESS is that 2 blind drivers one each side allows this to happen. Many manufacturers have made the compromise of reducing the blind drivers to avoid this, but now you have pulling power problems. We know Aristo won't resort to traction tires. 

It will be interesting as this progresses, but since I will be running all flanged drivers, this will not impact me at all. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I agree, blind drivers aren't going to affect me, either.

Spule: I found pictures of B&O E-27's, and this one shows wheels that look sort of like Aristo's standard freight engine wheel. Note the tires are almost completely gone:

B&O 2550

THis is the main page with pictures of all B&O steam:

B&O Steam


By the way, looking over these pictures and looking again at the model shots, Aristo has done one **** of a good job detailing this engine. Headlights and numberboards, appliances and 'stuff' looks about right and in the right spots. This is going to be a great little engine for the hobby.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

My guess is if its like the tender I have now the speaker will sit on the floor as usual and the circuit board will sit on pegs raising it above the floor and probably some of the speaker slightly under the board to gain space.Here is a pic of what I think they may do. Later RJD


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, my point is that your statement _"Speaker has to be under the circuit board, my concern is not enough space for a "manly" speaker. "_ is questionable. There's no basis for your assertion that the speaker "has" to be _under_ the circuit board. Aristo has put the speaker _behind_ the circuit board in other tenders; the C-16 in my example, and the tender in RJD's post (which I'm assuming from context is an Aristo tender.). Provided there's nothing else in the tender that would occupy the space to the rear of the socket board (as is the case in the C-16 tender but not RJD's) I see no reason why you couldn't fit a "manly" speaker such as the one you show in the tender without surgery, provided the tender itself is large enough to accommodate it. If they put a thin 3" speaker in there, and there's sufficient clear space above it, your manly 3" speaker will fit just as easily. Obviously, when you go trying to put a 10-gallon speaker in a 5-gallon tender, you're gonna have to do some cutting. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"There is no basis for my assertion that the speaker has to be under the circuit board." ???? 

Hello... it is ALREADY THERE.... are you intimating that Aristo customers remove the board and move it around? Please post that on the Aristo forum, or better yet put that statement in GR and expect a call from Lewis !!!









Kevin, please look at the pictures, and get some examples of the same tender, not a C16... please... 

If you would get out a ruler, and: 

1. measure the depth of the "stock" aristo speaker (like I have done) 
2. calculate the thickness of the circuit board (easy to see from the height of the black connectors) 
3. measure the thickness of an installed Revo,(you DO have a Revo)


you will see that you run out of space easily. I did not think this logic required exceptional mental gymnastics.

Also, maybe you don't realize that the stock Aristo speaker is VERY thin, and while the speaker shown next to it is about double in height, it is ONLY 1-3/4" high... that is NOT huge, and certainly not worthy of the exaggeration of "10 gallon speaker"... 

It's a reasonable sized speaker, on par with the Phoenix speakers used and enjoyed for many years. 

My point is simple, clear, and demonstrable, it's most likely that you will have to relocate the socket board to fit a reasonable speaker in the loco. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, I must be not seeing a photo or something, because I'm not seeing anything under the socket PC board in the photo Tom took that looks like it might be a speaker. The only photo I've seen of the inside of the tender is this one: 










That's all I'm going by, because that's all I've seen. I see no evidence in that one photo whatsoever which would tell me the speaker is under the PC board. In fact, there's no evidence in that photo indicating _where_ the speaker may be, if there's even a space _for_ a speaker. From that one single photo, there's just no way of knowing. So, baring concrete evidence from that one photo, I look to other examples from the same manufacturer to see past practice, wherein the speaker is behind the socket, to the rear of the tender. I'm inferring from your use of the phrase "has to be..." that there is a degree of speculation on your part; that you don't know for certain. Otherwise, I'd have expected you to use "is" or some other more definitive phrasing. The only reference to a speaker that I saw on the Aristo forum was Lewis saying the speaker was in the tender. He didn't say where. If there is insight that proves the speaker is definitely under that PC board, then I'll definitely defer. I've not seen it yet, so I remain open to all possibilities. 

A few things to consider: 
1) Going by the length of the socket, the PC board in the tender would appear to be a bit under 3" wide. 
2) If there was a 3" speaker under the PC board, you'd see it sticking out from underneath, being wider than the PC board. At the very least, you'd probably see some kind of plastic rim to hold the speaker in place, in the event the speaker didn't make it into this sample. 
3) If they used a smaller speaker (one easily hidden underneath the PC board) then the debate centers not on fitting a "manly" 3" speaker in lieu of a thin 3" one, but fitting any speaker of larger size (diameter and/or height) than the stock speaker. 

Also, maybe you don't realize that the stock Aristo speaker is VERY thin, and while the speaker shown next to it is about double in height, it is ONLY 1-3/4" high... that is NOT huge, and certainly not worthy of the exaggeration of "10 gallon speaker"... 

It's a reasonable sized speaker, on par with the Phoenix speakers used and enjoyed for many years. 



You're reading too much into what I write. I made no reference to that particular speaker being a 10-gallon speaker in this application. In fact, I stated that a speaker of that size (your "manly" speaker) should easily fit inside the Aristo 2-8-0 tender _if_ the speaker location is to the rear of the PC board, _and_ there's nothing in the airspace above it. Yeah, if the speaker is _under_ the PC board (even partially so as illustrated in RJD's photo), then it's not gonna fit without moving the PC board. The "10-gallon" reference lies more along those lines--installations where any speaker is decidedly larger than the space available, thus requiring various amounts of surgery to make things fit. I've had installations where a 2" wafer speaker is a 10-gallon speaker in a 5-gallon tender. (Okay, a 2-gallon speaker in a 1-gallon tender...) 

Later, 

K


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

So totally the wrong scale for the AV, but I want a B&O one anyway


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep Kevin, you are not seeing what is there... notice that the circuit board is on standoffs, and looking closely, you can see it is above the weights, which are two in number, so you can tell that there is room under the board. 

It's also been confirmed that there IS a speaker in THAT tender in that picture. 

Let's just leave this alone, I'm a bit tired of being the teacher to someone that wants to fight and not learn. It was more fun when you used to call me and ask questions about DCC and other stuff. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

My pic of the tender is of an Aristo USRA and from what I can tell there should be room to do what one wants to do. If the new tender is anything like mine then you have a depth of 2 1/2 inches at the rear of the tender and then under the coal load it goes to about 3 1/2 inches. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, this is a new product with (apparently) the speaker completely underneath the circuit board. 

1" for the speaker. 2" for the circuit board with the socket AND the Revo installed.... that leaves negative 1/2" inch in the rear, and 1/2" in the front. 

Seems like no room for anything much taller than the small stock speaker. 

My point. 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I kind of say there is room. Your forgetting the room up under the coal load for the Revco or any other plug in. Seeing how the circuit board does not look like it goes much further beyond the coal load there should be room for a better speaker of your choice. Later RJD


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Fellers... wait til the thing hits the shelves, buy one, take it apart and see. At the moment y'all are like kindergarten kids arguing who will be the more famousr doctor when they grow up.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 27 Oct 2010 04:25 PM 
Fellers... wait til the thing hits the shelves, buy one, take it apart and see. At the moment y'all are like kindergarten kids arguing who will be the more famousr doctor when they grow up. 

















Sorry, Im still a work in progress.....


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It's also been confirmed that there IS a speaker in THAT tender in that picture. 
Yes, the circuit board is on standoffs. That doesn't mean there's a speaker beneath it. It means they raised it up enough to get above the metal weights. I'm not being stubborn, I want to believe you. But there's zero visual evidence that there's a 3" speaker beneath that PC board that is absolutely no wider than 3". You say it's been confirmed, can you please point me to that resource? I'll gladly admit you're right. 

It was more fun when you used to call me and ask questions about DCC and other stuff. 
I agree, but then for some reason you stopped returning my calls and e-mails. Seems to me we apparently read each others' posts wrong so often that a simple phone call to each other would clear up a great many mis-conceptions. 

Later, 

K


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 27 Oct 2010 08:36 AM 
Greg,

 I agree, blind drivers aren't going to affect me, either.

Spule: I found pictures of B&O E-27's, and this one shows wheels that look sort of like Aristo's standard freight engine wheel. Note the tires are almost completely gone:

B&O 2550

THis is the main page with pictures of all B&O steam:

B&O Steam


By the way, looking over these pictures and looking again at the model shots, Aristo has done one **** of a good job detailing this engine. Headlights and numberboards, appliances and 'stuff' looks about right and in the right spots. This is going to be a great little engine for the hobby. 


Guess it depends on shop/wheel re-tire date, as the pic in my post shows them thicker....so who knows.

An H0 modelling friend has said that a lot of US smaller scale steam drivers have just not "looked right" lately, but I am willing to bet they are coming from the same factory/pen...


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

What about the pacific?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh, in the picture below you see a tender. You can see how long it is pretty much, you are seeing about 2/3 of it. Refer to the Aristo forum to verify I am not lying. It really is the Aristo tender, one that has been used for quite a while, now modified to hold the new circuit board.


Lewis Polk confirmed on the Aristo forum that there IS a speaker in THAT tender.

Well, it's not under the metal weights on the left, so it's under the circuit board that is on standoffs.

Since it's almost certainly the same speaker used in the same tender that is the same for all the 1:29 steam locos, it's a 3" speaker, almost certainly identical to the other picture I posted of an Aristo speaker from an Aristo Mikado. 


So, it's there under the circuit board, at least part of it. If you disagree, like I said, contact Lewis Polk and challenge him yourself. He would be delighted to prove me wrong. Can't get much more motivation than that!


By the way, the spacing between the 2 rows of sockets is 1-7/8", looking at the picture below, and the one following, you can see that a 3" diameter speaker must be under AT LEAST part of that circuit board, besides the fact that it has to be on the bottom floor of the tender. This means the circuit board height limits the height of the speaker, and again, working forwards, a taller speaker, like my 1-3/4" speaker, will NOT fit without moving the circuit board. 











Here is a shot of the tender:









Greg

p.s. you have not called in a long time, nor emailed. I'll answer.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Finally, we're on the same page. I agree, it may be partially under the PC board, because (a) we can't see how far back the PC board extends, nor (b) we don't know how far forward from the back end of the tender the speaker might be mounted. If there are no weights on the back end, the speaker could be right up against the back wall, in which case you've probably got around 3 1/2" of space from the back wall to the PC board _if_ the PC board ends within a 1/2" of what we can visibly see. If that is the case, then your taller speaker would fit sans surgery, which is the point I was trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully.) Not being able to see, we can't say with any degree of certainty from just the photograph which of the two scenarios is in play. Both are plausible. That being said, there's probably 2" of dead space forward of where the PC board is now, so moving it forward to clear a taller speaker isn't exactly major surgery. A wood block and some foam tape and you're all set. (Which begs the question "why not just move the board forward in the first place," but...) 

p.s. you have not called in a long time, nor emailed. I'll answer. 
It has been a while, but my last e-mails went unanswered so I figured you gave up on me.  I still want to do that Basics column on volt meters, so I'll be in touch. That and I'm going to be playing with the Airwire/NCE/Phoenix combination in the coming weeks/months, and may have some questions. 

Later, 

K


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well per George over at the AC site the tender is a redesign and must be shorter than the USRA tender they made several years ago. As keven mentioned I would think moving the board forward is an option as Ive done this before to make room for a larger/taller speaker and still have room to do any other installs. Later RJD


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

RJ,

I've seen the tender test mold at the ECLSTS the last couple of years, and yes, it is small. For reference, the trucks they show under the tender in the photos above look to be the regular 'tender' trucks, like what you have on your USRA tender. See how close together they are? 

Greg, Lewis confirmed the speaker is under the board in the tender. It must not have been in the test model that Tom photographed.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, Lewis confirmed the speaker is under the board in the tender. It must not have been in the test model that Tom photographed. 
Or a narrower speaker. In either case, looks like sliding the board forward to clear a larger/taller speaker will indeed be the order of the day. Plenty of room for that, at least. 'Course, I'm still in the "cut-and-gut" camp anyway, so my wire snips stand ready. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

From Lewis today on his forum:

Dear All,

It is a new tender totally, but we will not sell it separately as it's quite specific to the Consolidation. We don't want to have to stock several hundred for what we think will be a limited demand.

The electronics board is located directly over the speaker with about 1/2" clearance. The speaker faces down and there are holes on the bottom of the tender to allow the sound out exactly under the speaker.

All the best,
Lewis Polk 


If there is 1/2" clearance, I'm still confident that my guess is right, same speaker as the original ones from the Mikado, Mallet, Pacific. It also reinforces that most "upgrade" speakers will require "surgery".


Kevin, I agree about making the change, but the reason I brought this up, is that it makes something that was simple and easy before more difficult now, especially for the battery guys. Just like the changes in the RDC, it puzzling since Aristo has stated they want to go battery, and yet seems the battery guys will suffer the most.

Even track power people using the Revolution suffer because they have to use that big capacitor board, which is visible in the RDC-3 (but so is the Revolution) and looks like a tight squeeze in the Consolidation tender. 

Very puzzling indeed, since the plug and play option is a great thing about Aristo locos.

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Instead of looking at the negative, try looking at it this way: No room in the tender for batteries, so put them in the boiler. Batteries seem heavy to me. More weight in the engine over the drivers seems like a better idea than dragging weight behind the loco. Truthfully, fitting stuff in the boiler or the tender on an engine this size is going to be a challenge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, batteries in the boiler will help traction, and the Aristo mechanism will handle extra weight just fine since it is ball bearing. 

But, you realize that adding the batteries will require rewiring of the locomotive, or an additional 2 wire plug/connector to get the battery power "over" to the tender. 

Not focusing on negatives, but just reality, what does the new design mean to me, the consumer? 

All the good stuff is self-evident, it looks great, it's a good size, it's distinctive. But we need to also consider how we will use the loco. My first action will be to see what I have to modify to add the sound quality I am used to. 

For a loco that will cost about $550, it's definitely worth starting to plan these items, this is a significant investment for most people. 

Interesting that this is an all-new tender, but from looking at many Consolidation photos, the smaller size seems most appropriate. The scratchbuilders would probably love to get hold of it separately. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

The wires should already be there. Either use the wires from the track power or the MU plug that seems to go in all steamers.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No room for batteries in _that_ tender? I'd _love_ to have that much room in my tenders. Trust me. We can fit everything into a B'mann 4-4-0 tender, a tender this cavernous is a walk in the park. We know the Revolution and the stock speaker fit. A Li-Ion pack would most likely very easily fit stuck to the "ceiling" of the tender shell over the rear of the tender. Otherwise, you set it at a 45-degree angle at the front of the tender over the weights, as I don't think there's quite 3" of space above the weights to stand the pack vertically. Aristo's 21 v. Li-Ion pack is a 6 x 2 array, not a 4 x 1 array, so it may sit neatly atop the weight. That's zero surgery to the tender and full functionality. If you wanted a larger speaker and higher-capacity battery, you'd have to do some sliding around, but battery guys tend to be Tetris champions in that regard. It just goes with the territory. 

The problem with batteries in the boiler nowadays is that the new battery technology weighs a fraction of what it used to: (all examples around 14.4 volts, around 2100 mAh.) 

*NiCad (sub-C standard R/C pack)* 
2 7.2 volt packs side by side: Size = 5.25" x 4" x 1" (21 cubic inches), weight 26 oz. These are normally candidates for "batteries in the boiler," but consider this: lead weighs 6.5 oz per cubic inch, so in that same space, you could fit nearly 8.5 pounds of lead vs. 1.6 pounds of batteries. 

*NiMH AA pack (12 cells in a battery holder)* 
Size = 4" x 2.5" x 1.25" (12.5 cubic inches), weight 11.5 oz. 

*Li-Ion pack (standard 4-cell flat pack)* 
Size = 3" x 3" x 0.75" (6.75 cubic inches), weight 7 oz. 

Batteries in the boiler was always compromise, not an ideal installation. It was a convenient place to put bulky batteries that otherwise were inconvenient to fit in the tender. The fact that they made up some of the lost weight that had to be removed from the boiler in order to fit them in was a bonus. Anyone who's had to tear back into a boiler to replace a pack with a bad cell will tell you it's far from a great place for batteries. Today, there's no need to make that kind of compromise, as the battery technology is far lighter and smaller, all the while yielding same or in many cases greater run times. 

Later, 

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

As a comparrison since the new consol also has a small boiler, I put 14 batteries in the new C-16's boiler. I had to sacrifice the weight. The batteries weighed aprox. half the weight. I added lead shot everywhere I could to compensate. Also had to remove smoke unit. 
As advised by many here I gutted her and used the connecting plug wires to send power to the tender and back, plus lights. 

Bear in mind that this loco was on the drawing boards long before Lewis saw the light and direction towards batteries. So yes this loco might be less than promised for other future locos. The economy has tightened margins, so I doubt they could reverse engineer this model to fit the later made 'promise'. 

I'm glad to see the light under the boiler! This little beauty wasn't a power hog, she stepped lightly on light iron and pulled short trains effeciently, not quickly. Small drivers gain traction and keep it moving. 
Times were different. Merely traveling from one town to another in less than a day was fantastic. When my railroad ran it took 10 hours by horseback/carriage to go from my home to Tucson city center, now I can drive there in less than a half hour (traffic permitting).








Ask the live steamers if all coal is the same. They know it's not. Lesser grades required bigger fireboxes to get the heat. Confined between the wheels the only way to go was up and the boiler followed. Ah I see the light! When fire boxes went backwards we got Mikados....









John


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Come on Guys, 

She has a battery plug hanging out her butt, put a canteen behind the tender.. 

BulletBob


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

You got it Bob. I have a 2-bay hopper car with 2 li-ion batteries, REVO, P5 Phoenix with speaker and ball bearing wheels. Just load up sound file plug into battery plug and run. Won't even open up the tender or boiler. Here is a video of a C-16 operating with this trailing car. Turn down your volume...............Jim

http://www.youtube.com/trainman24#p/a/u/1/q9wTtf8Nod8


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep same old car behind every battery loco you own sure would get old and then switching cars can never leave home without it.







. If your not a rivet counter I guess it will work for ya. Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 28 Oct 2010 02:33 PM 
Yep same old car behind every battery loco you own sure would get old and then switching cars can never leave home without it.







. If your not a rivet counter I guess it will work for ya. Later RJD 

OH RJ give me a brake,, you start out with one battery car till you can afford more in different cars so you can run more trains.....ddddaaaaa


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, you can get more battery cars, although at that point I would want the batteries inside for the other reason RJ gave that you did not address, a car permanently coupled to the loco, looks weird with a switcher or a road loco that had a car permanently glued to it. 

Especially if it is a small yard switcher, or an 0-4-0.. 

Yeah, I can see the "utility" of a battery car. That does not mean I have to like it or think it is cool. 

Anyway, this was about the pain in the butt it will be to add batteries and change the speaker in the Consolidation. It will be a pain. I hope Aristo left enough wire to move things around, but I suspect you will have to trim the board or even remove it to improve the situation. 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not address it because common since would tell you your switches can be on-board batt and smaller simply because they are used for a different purpose. 
My GP 40 KCS unit Will be either on board batt, (slip down through top) as a traveling engine. or use battery car for long hauls. 

I am wiring up 3 locos for the Hospital layout with Revo for track power. But I warned them that volenteers need to know they could short out the track power if there is a derailment with metal wheels. 

Besides the word "looks funny" is just an opinion. I have seen lots of 1:1 unit trains in RR Illis, mag with a box car or hopper right behind the engine.
I have a photo of a lone GP9 U.P. with a single car out in the middle of no where.
0-4-0 could use a small 16 volt batt with Rev in tender if you wanted to .
Lot better than hitting dead spots on switches or cross overs.


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

* All these problems with batteries .... 
You could go back to the old fashioned way and run track power .... 
But then again, some of us really never did switch over !!! I personally just tinkered with the idea. 
Yet, I only need just a few locos that run on either batteries OR track power that I could take out on "tour". That is, if I ever get the time to leave town. For me it's a cost thing, with over 80 locos now, it just costs too darn much $$$ to swap them all over to battery power. And a consist of 3 or 4 Deisels would chow down on a dual battery car in a matter of about 10-15 minutes. Nope, it just isn't cost effeceint to be a battery power man. A few 2-4 battery cars will be the most I ever try to do and my cheap R/C stuff rides in the battery car. 

Rocky *


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I hope Aristo left enough wire to move things around, but I suspect you will have to trim the board or even remove it to improve the situation. 
If you're going with a non-Plug-and-Play control system (battery or track-power), removing the board becomes step 1 anyway. I don't suspect most who are of the mindset to swap the speaker for a better-sounding one would be the least bit put off by having to fiddle with the internal electronics to do so. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Why do these threads have to end up "the only way to go is with track power" or "the only way to go is with battery power"? Why can't we just accept that some folks like to run battery power to eliminate the disadvantages of track power, and others like to run with track power to eliminate the disadvantages of battery power? Sure, I would much rather have a battery car behind my engines than clean track etc., but I certainly understand why some folks don't have any issue with cleaning track, and don't want a battery car glued to a locomotive all the time. Does that make me right and them wrong, or vice versa?? I don't think so.

Ed


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

As a friend of mine says, "It's not that you're wrong, it's just that I'm right. And you can be right too if you agree with me.".  

Actually these threads can be pretty entertaining and I agree with most of what is said on both sides. Could Aristo-Craft have done better with the design? Probably. Will most people be happy with it without modifications? Probably. Will I buy one and have to make major changes to fit in a bigger speaker like Greg? Probably. But oh well, that's part of the fun right? And if it's not fun to make changes, well, you can stick with the stock speaker and a plug-in Revo system. Or just use track power, that's fine too. I think it's great there are so many ways to do everything in the hobby. At least it gives us something to talk about, right?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed I did not start it. 
Just defending wrong information. 
I was out working on the steam track,, see ,,and I'm not even into live steam.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Some, maybe most just want background noise and the smaller speaker delivers enough. 
Ya want xtra, you pay. Aristo can keep costs down designing for the masses. 
There's probably some satisfaction to them by keeping their favorite 'detractor' customer writing.... ha ha. 

Opinions... too much like negative politicks and I've had my fill. Partway through a Huh? to the Rockster, I closed the site... 

Happy Halloween 

John


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By benshell on 31 Oct 2010 02:07 PM 
As a friend of mine says, "It's not that you're wrong, it's just that I'm right. And you can be right too if you agree with me.".  

.......................................................................................................


Now I like your idea.. Works for me most of the time until the better/other half butts in..







lol
We know ...nothing to do with the threads. We run or work on all.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well you missed your mark Marty. You still have not provided a good explanation of battery power and the trailing cars. One thing about the new loco looks like uncle Lewis did a back flip and help the track power guys out for a change







. Thanks AC for thinking about us track powered guys. Looks like you battery folks are just going to have to struggle on this one.







Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, who called my mom???? 

Unless there is Drama and controversy these threads just die out. Like most "good" ,informative , lots of photos , threads. 

Besides, we all know who thinks "he's" right!!!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

That could be any body here for that mater. I know few of them. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You did not start it Marty, but you had to throw a personal zinger... 

Greg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Anybody remember the B'mann Vulcan? So many folks bashed the crap out of it that in never went into production.... A smallish SG Consolidation is one of those things the hobby absolutely needs. So why are you fellows making such a fuss about minor stuff before it even hits the shelves? Do y'all enjoy shooting yourselves in the foot? The truly IMPORTANT questions are: 1. Does it look good? 2. Does it run smoothly? 3. Does it pull well? 4. What is the quality like? and 5. Will it fit (my) existing curves and clearances?

The answer to #1 seems to be yes. I'd think the other 4 need answered *before* you all start a wizzing match over ease of battery conversions, small speakers and other NON-ESSENTIAL things. But gee, I'm just a guy who plays with toy trains, so what do I know?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Looks like you battery folks are just going to have to struggle on this one. 
No struggle at all _unless_ you want to upgrade the stock speaker with a larger one. When you do that, all bets as to simplicity are off, because it then becomes as complex as you wish to make it given the components you wish to add. If you can add a 3" speaker, what's to stop you from deciding to squeeze in a 4" speaker instead? When you play at that level, you want the best you can get for the space available. Ease of installation takes a very distant back seat. 

As to the quality of the stock components, one thing to keep in mind is that the size of the speaker is only half the battle in any acoustic installation. The other half of the equation lies in the speaker cabinet. Case in point, my K-27 vs. my B'mann 2-8-0. The former has a very large tender, but a 3" speaker on par with the Aristo speaker. My 2-8-0 has a 4" big-honkin' speaker designed to really move some air in the low frequencies. The K-27 blows the doors off the 2-8-0 in terms of sound quality for no other reason than the fact that the speaker cabinet is much larger. It's not that the 4" speaker would sound even better, either--much to my surprise, it didn't make a whole lot of difference between the two speakers. The 4" speaker definitely sounded better than the 3" in the 2-8-0 tender, so that's where it ended up. How the Aristo tender shell works in that capacity is a question that cannot be answered theoretically. 

You still have not provided a good explanation of battery power and the trailing cars. 
Trailing cars have really been obsolete since the age of NiMH batteries except in one or two specific scenarios. Most commonly, it's the individual who has a fleet of locos and doesn't want the expense of adding batteries to each of them. The catch there is that the loco must be able to accept power from the battery car, either through the manufacturer's doing or your own. Not insurmountable, but on some locos, it requires a fair degree of rewiring. But certainly, two or three trailing cars is much cheaper than dozens of set-ups, especially if the operator never runs more than two or three at the same time anyway. To do otherwise would be a waste of money--money that could be better spent on track.  The downside is that if you've got sound installed in the trailing car, you're hearing the same sounds regardless of which locomotive is in front. The other most common scenario for battery cars today is a fixed consist; a passenger train of similar where the same loco pulls the same set of cars. In that regard, it's often just as easy to put everything in a trail car behind the loco where you can fit hours and hours' worth of batteries. The car in essence becomes a "tender" for the locomotive, be it steam, diesel, electric, etc. Let's face it--what's a tender besides a dedicated trail car for a specific steam locomotive? The question that must be asked when looking at whether a trailing car is the best option is how do you run your trains? If you're a prototype operator, obviously having a trail car permanently coupled to your loco will be a bit problematic. (It was when I first started out.) But if you're a "turn-em-on-and-watch-em-run" kind of operator, who's going to know/care where the batteries are? 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

You tell'em Kevin 
You-da-man 


PS They keep forgeting, we all came from track power. We know their side of the story.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

he downside is that if you've got sound installed in the trailing car, you're hearing the same sounds regardless of which locomotive is in front

K, I guess it depends on what sound system you are using. The phoenix is easily reprogrammed, which is what Jim was alluding to above in his post. 

Marty, you must have mistaken this site for the other MLS.....................


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

To put the sound and speakers in the battery car is up to the modeler, their choice and if they like, fine by me. Write it off as a penny pincher's compromise. I'd at least hope they'd have seperate sounds for steam and dismals! Unless it's an Alco honorary steamer! ha ha. 
I put the sound card, speaker and Rx/decoder in the tender and just batteries in the battery car, I know; who'd a thunk. The tender has a switch for track or battery power. 

I play in the desert and made my battery car from an Aristo 20' tank car and a 0-4-0 tender frame. Hauling extra water out here is a way of life. Often railroads would supply water to way stations... Having a water tender tucked in behind the fuel tender looks quite right and is accepted practice. Switching out cars is the same whether theres's a bat car or not, unless you have tight and short switch backs to spot cars, there, the exta car could be a problem. 

Finally only I would know that that car is always there, visitors wouldn't be aware unless they watched and noted every run. What's the big deal? If they do, then it's time for a history lesson on desert living! ha ha. 

Battery power is the only way to go! Easy Peasy around the reverse curve and back through switches.... no cornfuzing electronics.... and if you run my way no time outs to recharge... but that's another worm can. Money saved from electronics can finance a loco specific sound card... blah blah blah.... 

Fianally if you just did everything my way, we'd all be stumbling around asking questions and getting nowhere! Diversity! 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Amen Ed, especially when the thread is about a new product, not the never-ending debate. We are discussing the pro's and con's and new features, and "missing features" of a new product. We can also do without the personal attacks. All I know is I am tossing out the cheap Aristo speaker for a $12 speaker that sounds much better and using the plug and play socket. I'm not looking forward to modifying the electrical system of my new $550 locomotive, and think this part of the design is a step backwards. Greg Posted By eheading on 31 Oct 2010 01:28 PM 
Why do these threads have to end up "the only way to go is with track power" or "the only way to go is with battery power"? Why can't we just accept that some folks like to run battery power to eliminate the disadvantages of track power, and others like to run with track power to eliminate the disadvantages of battery power? Sure, I would much rather have a battery car behind my engines than clean track etc., but I certainly understand why some folks don't have any issue with cleaning track, and don't want a battery car glued to a locomotive all the time. Does that make me right and them wrong, or vice versa?? I don't think so.

Ed


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, considering how long this has been in production I don't think of it as a step backwards as much as being in step with the times of 'back then'. 
Lewis' promise of a move towards bat power came long after the design was finalised for this loco. Tight margins kept it as designed, for back then. 

I do think your 'complaint' is unique to wanting a bigger speaker. The stock C-16 speaker sounds good to me, but then I want scale sound, not an earth rumbling roar. I want the sound to enhance the background, not be the star! I think too many run too loud! At slow speeds a loco could be stealthy, that's why they rang the bell, so people would know the train was moving. 

Is that street price? 

John


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 01 Nov 2010 06:23 AM 
You tell'em Kevin 
You-da-man 


PS They keep forgeting, we all came from track power. We know their side of the story.



And we know you guys stories as well









Everytime i think i might try a battery set up for my self

















A post pops up that keeps me from making a BIG MISSTAKE....









Quote by Tom Parkins via Aristo site

[ I still use the old 27 MHz Train Engineer. I use battery cars. I get out the transmitter. Nothing, nothing nothing. Worked fine last week. Replace the batteries. Still nothing, nothing, nothing. Now the stress is building. OK I will switch over to the other transmitter. But it is not linked to the passenger train. I could not recall the link instructions, and could not find them. No time to go on line. So I was reduced to using only one boxcar battery car and Doodlebug

The box car and my modified 4-6-0 have incompatible battery cables (long story). But I have a jumper cable for interface. Except I couldn't remember where I put it yesterday. 

I think my batteries are getting old. Most of them have a 2004 date, some 2003. They are RC car 9.6volt 3000Mah NiMH. They take the charge okay, they just don't last as long under demanding situations. When I put Big Mike on the heavy coal train, with sound and smoke, it seemed to eat batteries in a pretty short time. ]

I think TRACK pwer rules fellas









I dont need any added stress to run my trains .......


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick,

Note, Tom's experience is only because he was having an open house. I had the same thing happen with track powered trains. If he wasn't, I'd bet that nothing would have gone wrong. Even though I am firmly track powered, I was thankful the one time when Pete showed up with two battery powered locomotives. Because it wasn't Pete's railroad, his motive power did not have any problems!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, I'm referring to a "step backwards" to the change in the Aristo philosophy on where the socket is located. The Mikado and Mallet had it in the boiler. 

This seemed strange at first, but it's normally only 4 screws to open the boilier, and this left the tender wide open for batteries, speakers, sound boards, etc. Very easy and simple. 

I understand that getting to the socket is easier now, just pop out the coal load (apparently) 

But, like the RDC-3, it's a step backwards in functionality and convenience for many users. I'm impacted least because all I want is a bigger speaker, and I am completely capable of gutting the tender. 

But, for people who might invest in a $200 sound system and want something better than a 50 cent speaker (gee that makes sense) or want to put batteries in the tender, it's much worse than before. 

If I was Aristo, I would have found a way to put the socket just over the weights, and kept the circuit board much smaller, then batteries and/or a better speaker would be easy. This is especially important since this new tender is much smaller than the Mikado, Pacific, and Mallet tenders. 

Yeah, $550 is the street price, I usually quote RLD prices, since if he is not the lowest, he's usually within 5 bucks. 

Also, small correction... Lewis' move towards battery power came BEFORE the decision to move all sockets to the tender... battery power was being embraced even before the Revolution came out. 

Anyway, I feel for the other guys that will have to go through the additional effort. I love sound in my loco, and none of my Aristo steamers have the stock speaker, and for good reason. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Just think a few years ago internet forums where nonexistent and if that where the case today none of the bashing of Manufactures would take place and all live happily ever after. Later RJD


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

This seemed strange at first, but it's normally only 4 screws to open the boilier, and this left the tender wide open for batteries, speakers, sound boards, etc. Very easy and simple. 
Trust me, Greg. The boiler on a model steam locomotive is the _last_ thing you want to have to get into on a routine basis. I don't care _how_ easily it comes apart. That is very much a "set it and forget it" part of the locomotive. Too many pipes and other details that can easily break off, and in many cases have to be removed to separate them. Lots of steam locomotives don't remotely lend themselves to that kind of construction. From a manufacturing standpoint, the tender makes far more sense as a location for the control electronics. That's why when battery R/C guys do installs, they avoid having to put anything in the boiler unless absolutely necessary. I don't have enough confidence in _anyone's_ electronics to sequester them in a place where I can't easily get to them to troubleshoot. Once I button up a locomotive, it gets painted, weathered, and that's the last I touch the internal workings of it. If I were to do an Aristo Mike or Mallet, I'd yank the socket and wire everything in the tender. Magic Smoke escapes far too easily, sometimes for no other reason than just turning on the power. 

I feel for the other guys that will have to go through the additional effort. 
I don't. For starters, most folks installing batteries and sound in this locomotive will need no additional effort. Everything looks like it will fit very easily. It may--to some ears--sound a bit thin, but we don't know how the acoustics of the tender will affect the sound quality. It could be like my K-27. Second, learning how your locomotive is wired, and installing sound and control systems is in my opinion "Model Railroading 102." If you're going to play in that sandbox, you owe it to yourself to learn how to build the sandcastle without relying on pre-made forms. There's often going to be some element of the control that will make you have to figure something out beyond what the manufacturer designed into the system. Granted, there are those for whom turning on a light switch is fraught with peril, but by and large, most folks who get into advanced sound and control do "get it" after one or two installs. Dealing with adversity in the installation goes with the territory. If it's not a PC board that might need to be moved to fit a battery or larger speaker, it's reconfiguring the chuff trigger or rewiring the headlights so they work properly with your chosen system. Modelers have been installing sound and control in large scale locomotives for 25+ years, most of that without any kind of manufacturer support. There's no way they can take everyone's needs into consideration, so they build for their own and let us take it from there. At least they're addressing our basic needs--far more than they were doing 15 years ago. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Trust ME Kevin, do YOU own any Aristo Pacifics, Mallets, Mikados? I do, and I am NOT generalizing about all steam locos, I am talking specifically about Aristocraft, as in what this thread is all about. Your comment in general does not address how easy it is to work on Aristo steamers.

Also, no one implied that you need to get to the Aristo socket on a regular basis, and if you do, you have a problem. That is another "red herring" comment on your part. 

If YOUR system needs regular access to the electronics, I suggest you get another system, you have a quality issue. 

I'm really NOT happy with this derailment, this is not a general thread on battery, or R/C, or other locos, it's specifically on the Aristo Consolidation. Is it necessary to derail the subject of the thread to make constructive comments? 

You also say you "don't feel" for the guys that have to go through the additional effort? Installing batteries and sound is no additional effort? Only maybe people using QSI... anyone adding batteries and a phoenix sound board will most likely be space challenged, but I have been focusing on changing speaker also, which is ignored too, most people like the Phoenix speaker over the stock Aristo.... I don't think you are on the focus of the thread, again, someone dropping about $200 to add sound most likely wants the best sound they can get.

The point here AGAIN is not about advanced installers who can do whatever it takes, or people like you who "gut" the loco, but for the broad majority who are not "experts" and want to do it themselves. *You and I are not the people I am concerned about, and "feel for"*. 

Isn't that the whole point of having a "plug and play" control systems (Revo, QSI, etc.) and the room for batteries? The broad majority of customers? 

In "defending" Aristo's choices on the Consolidation, your comments are actually at odds with their basic intent, to make the loco easier to use and equip for the majority, and to facilitate battery power. 

That's what I have been talking about. 


Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 01 Nov 2010 06:23 AM 
You tell'em Kevin 
You-da-man 


PS They keep forgeting, we all came from track power. We know their side of the story.



.......and then there are the "smart" ones who opted for battery R/C from the get go.









I am sure there will be plenty of room for adequate batteries in the tender.

I would be more concerned about the stock wiring in the loco, such as the TRACK-BATTERY switch not having issues, like most of the AristoCraft steam outline locos have had over the years.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

.......and then there are the "smart" ones who opted for battery R/C from the get go


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't see why people get wound up about this. To each his own, I say. I still have a couple of track powered locos, rest are battery or live steam. I like all 3 types, just depends on which I want to mess with. Living close to the UP mainline, I hear plenty of train sounds so don't do much with sound on my trains. I do feel many people crank up their sound too high, just my personal opinion. Could be my damage hearing from my Army/Guard days though.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

do YOU own any Aristo Pacifics, Mallets, Mikados? 
Yes, I do, but it doesn't matter. I don't care if the boiler magically appeared and disappeared at the wave of a wand, I think it's a bad idea to have the control electronics stuck in the boiler, separated from the sound electronics. Why would you want to have to run extra wires between the loco and tender just to hook up the sound triggers? If there's room in the boiler for the sound board, that's an improvement, but I still don't relish the thought of having to take the boiler apart for _any_ reason. I think it's a stupid way to do business. I think Aristo did the 2-8-0 correctly, with everything in the tender, where there's ample room for everything without surgery. (Maybe not for your preferred speaker, but there's at least a speaker in there.) 

If YOUR system needs regular access to the electronics, I suggest you get another system, you have a quality issue. 
It's not about quality, it's about access. I'm fiddling with my electronics fairly frequently, either to adjust the volume, remove a board to program/change sounds, or any number of other reasons. In many of my installations, space is a serious consideration, and I'd rather not have more external switches, plugs, or other things when I can just lift the tender shell and push a button on the board itself to get it to do what I want. (And when I say "serious space considerations," I'm referring to tenders with maybe 30 cubic inches of space maximum; a far far cry from the cavernous tender behind Aristo's 2-8-0. 

anyone adding batteries and a phoenix sound board will most likely be space challenged, 
In THAT tender? Give me a break! Do you _seriously_ expect me to believe you (or even a complete newbie) couldn't fit a 1" x 2.5" x 1/2" sound board and a 3" x 3" x 3/4" battery in that tender? If you're using QSI, the G-wire receiver's roughly the same size as the Phoenix. Sorry, Greg. This one is an absolute walk in the park compared to most other installations I've done. 

someone dropping about $200 to add sound most likely wants the best sound they can get. 
Agreed, but what is "the best sound" they can get? Does it come from a 3" speaker, a 4" speaker? A 4" x 6" car stereo speaker crammed to fill the entire tender? Two 4" speakers in a custom-designed box car? A 2" speaker placed in the smokebox so the sound can come from where it's _supposed_ to come from as opposed to 40 scale feet behind? Sound quality is highly subjective. Aristo uses some pretty heavy-duty speakers, such as the one in the C-16 and the slightly smaller one in the RDC-3 that aren't the "thin 3" speaker" we're assuming to be in this loco. Until we _hear_ the sound produced by whatever speaker comes with this tender from _inside_ the tender, we're all just blowing smoke. 

Isn't that the whole point of having a "plug and play" control systems (Revo, QSI, etc.) and the room for batteries? The broad majority of customers? 
In "defending" Aristo's choices on the Consolidation, your comments are actually at odds with their basic intent, to make the loco easier to use and equip for the majority, and to facilitate battery power. 
Once you let yourself come to terms with the fact that there's more than ample room in that tender--stock, out of the box, no surgery required--for sound, control, and battery, you'll find that they did exactly that. 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OHHHHH 
Kevin 

NO no , keep as much as possible in the boiler. My USAT Bigboy and Hudson all have it in the boiler. I just opened it to look at the "mess". 

the tenders have lots of room for the battery. 

The Hudson was the easiest conversion I ever done, because it was all in the boiler. Unplug, reroute, and make go.
Am I the ONLY one with all the Right answers??????


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty I thought this thread was about the AC 2-8-0 not about USAT stuff. Guess you and Keven are hung up. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 01 Nov 2010 04:45 PM 
I don't see why people get wound up about this. To each his own, I say. I still have a couple of track powered locos, rest are battery or live steam. I like all 3 types, just depends on which I want to mess with. Living close to the UP mainline, I hear plenty of train sounds so don't do much with sound on my trains. I do feel many people crank up their sound too high, just my personal opinion. Could be my damage hearing from my Army/Guard days though. 

Jerry

I dont think it's a problem,

I think its just people havin Fun

No harm no foul..... to each there own

But why not have a little fun along the way 











Relax people.......


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

OOOOOOOOOOOOO

The Fairplex is going to be interesting this weekend

Gonna be a lot of







Goin on.. HE HE HE

I kid cause i really DO care................


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"In THAT tender? Give me a break! Do you seriously expect me to believe you (or even a complete newbie) couldn't fit a 1" x 2.5" x 1/2" sound board and a 3" x 3" x 3/4" battery in that tender? If you're using QSI, the G-wire receiver's roughly the same size as the Phoenix. Sorry, Greg. This one is an absolute walk in the park compared to most other installations I've done. " 

Uhh... you forgot to add in the weights, the large circuit board, the dead space between the existing speaker and the circuit board, the R/C unit and the speaker.... how come all of this is forgotten whenever you try to prove how much space is in that tender? 

Are you again talking ripping out the circuit board? No, I can't quite follow your logic, except every time you try to argue something you leave out something important or exaggerate. 


The following paragraph makes me worry a lot about you: 

"Agreed, but what is "the best sound" they can get? Does it come from a 3" speaker, a 4" speaker? A 4" x 6" car stereo speaker crammed to fill the entire tender? " 

Why do you go off the deep end here? I was waiting for the 12" subwoofer comment? Why does my comment about improving the sound take you to extremes? 

The best sound they can get is obviously based on what they can get to fit, what is affordable. But ANYTHING is better than that little tiny speaker. 

Have you forgotten the pictures earlier in the thread? That's the Aristo steam loco speaker, the tiny, thin one.

AND if you REALLY have a Mikado, Mallet, or Pacific you would know... it's not the C16 and it's not a RDC. 


"Aristo uses some pretty heavy-duty speakers," 

No they don't... not in the steam locomotive WE ARE TALKING ABOUT... not the RDC, not the C16... 

By the way, if you read what Lewis posted, there is 1/2" free space between the speaker and the circuit board... it does not take a degree in mathematics to add up the speaker, the free space, the circuit board, the Revo... you can see it all adds up right... 

All I am talking is that it could have been better designed, and you will have to move the circuit board and most likely rewire or chop it out to add a reasonable speaker, only 1.5" high. 

Aristo should have put the circuit board over the weight (dead space now) and then there would have been room for batteries AND a reasonable speaker (and yes, probably even a big speaker) no sweat. 

Similar problem with the current tenders, you have to relocate a small board to fit a larger speaker, but it's easy since very little is connected to that particular board and it's small. 

This is one of the points I am making, and I get the feeling that it's only because I am saying something "negative" that you are going all over the place with 4 x 6 inch speakers... and gross exaggerations. 

What the **** has happened to MLS? You have to just say everything is wonderful no matter what? You have to bend over and say thank you no matter what?



Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Uhh... you forgot to add in the weights, the large circuit board, the dead space between the existing speaker and the circuit board, the R/C unit and the speaker.... how come all of this is forgotten whenever you try to prove how much space is in that tender? 
Are you again talking ripping out the circuit board? No, I can't quite follow your logic, except every time you try to argue something you leave out something important or exaggerate. 

No, Greg, I'm leaving everything in the tender that's already there. The weights, the socket, everything. That's what "no surgery required" means. Drop the control into the socket, wire in the sound board, plug in the batteries, and off you go. Period. Why do you remotely believe it won't fit when two people with 25+ years experience installing R/C in very tight places are saying there's plenty of room? 

Why do you go off the deep end here? 
To illustrate a point by pushing the example to the absurd. A manufacturer cannot remotely be expected to accommodate every absurd extreme of what one person might think "sounds best." No matter what a manufacturer allows for in a locomotive, there's always going to be someone who says "it's not enough." You gotta draw the line somewhere. Some locos allow for a 1.5" or 2" speaker at the most. The fact that Aristo allows 3" in the tender can be viewed as a luxury from a manufacturing standpoint. Remember when they didn't even bother? (Though I am waiting for the Bose Wave Box Car.) 

Aristo should have put the circuit board over the weight (dead space now) and then there would have been room for batteries AND a reasonable speaker (and yes, probably even a big speaker) no sweat. 
Agreed, and that was my argument from the earliest of posts. That's the configuration in the C-16 tender which I referenced. PC board to the front end, speaker with plenty of airspace to the rear. Alas, they did not, so you've got to do some sliding around to fit the larger speaker. No big deal, but the lack of ability to do that does not--in my opinion--render the entire tender a design flop. That's where our opinions differ. 

What the **** has happened to MLS? You have to just say everything is wonderful no matter what? 
No, you're free to criticize, but you do have to listen to others and accept their facts when it comes to what _will_ fit in the tender when offered as evidence contrary to your argument. 

Later, 

K


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

So many here with great know how and knowledge. Problem is I can't trust it to be fair or accurate. 11 pages of back and forth banter on the verge of nasty for a product that no one has on thier workbench??? Seriously??? Can we at least wait until it's in our hands before we start to complain about it? It would lend a bit more credibility to one's position either way.

FWIW...Waiting for the un-lettered to re-badge as a DM&IR. Looks like a big seller, don't own much in Aristo but this one is a must have for me.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why Greg's worried about what the battery guys are going to do. Did someone get better pictures of the space inside this tender? I thought Greg was OK with moving electronics. I must have missed something. But I can deal with and change any of the electrical issues, the most important thing is how it looks and it looks great. Greg, are you moving to onboard battery DCC?

The weird thing is that the focus of this thread is centered on nit picky crap that cannot be proved or disproved at this point. No one, and that includes ME, has any hard evidence, aka MEASUREMENTS. 

You have to just say everything is wonderful no matter what?

Not everything is wonderful. But the other 99% is pretty F'ing sweeet. I was just thinking about how easy accessing the tender for troubleshooting and reprogramming will be! 
I won't have to install that linking button externally!
I won't have to install the programming jack for the Phoenix sound board externally!
I'll probably insall the volume control externally but that's just because it is a toggle switch and works better if it is mounted.

Best of all, I avoid the awkward balancing act or laying the steam loco on its side? Plus smoke fluid running everywhere. 

The more I think about it, the more I like the tender installation of all control and sound. Plus, I could fit a battery in there easily enough. (Just go ahead and tell me I can't. I fit this 6'4" frame in the middle seat in the back of an Acura Integra for about a year and a half on my daily commute to school. Who is to say that some ingenious battery manufacturer won't come up with the idea to make a rechargable battery in the shape of that coal load? Custom batteries are not unheard of, Dad had one built out of a bike water bottle. All it takes is $$). And that goes for the Pacific, too.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I could give a rat's rump about the sound board location or speaker space... my default setting on that is Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw. Wait a minute... can you track power an MP3 player?

OTOH I just might like to know how much work it will be to re-scale it to 1:24, I'm ass-uming that fitting a Delton cab (or modifying the existing one), cutting out every other step up to the running board, replacing the tender ladder and maybe lengthening the stack (or replacing it with an 0-4-0 one) won't be TOO hard..... Maybe it will be more work than just chopping, splicing and resoldering a few bloody wires, but it should be doable. BUT, you know, I think I'll just wait until I HAVE one, or at least have SEEN the thing in person, before complaining about how much work it is... or isn't.

Discussing different ways of doing stuff is one thing. Arguing design flaws/points and how hard it will be to modify about something you've never even yet seen because it hasn't YET been produced --- unless YOU are in the beta testing pipeline, is usually counterproductive to it EVER BEING MADE.

ALSO, the bloody argument is just going in circles. If you said it already, then saying it over, and over, and over, and over again does... what? Make it more true? Less true? Make you sound like a broken record (for those old enough to remember vinyl) or a parrot? (For the 'record'. this 'polly' wants a beer, and a big fish sammich)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"To illustrate a point by pushing the example to the absurd. A manufacturer cannot remotely be expected to accommodate every absurd extreme of what one person might think" 

No one asked you to use absurd extremes, and no one asked a manufacturer to do something absurd. 

The only person using absurd examples and exaggerating is you... and I have been asking you why you are doing this on this thread and derailing it. 

I know the famous words are "you are not speaking as a moderator, but as an individual". 

In any case, it's worthless to continue in this vein, maybe your goal. 

Last transmission on this thread. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No one asked you to use absurd extremes... 
How I present my arguments is seldom based on public input.  

and no one asked a manufacturer to do something absurd. 
Nor was my argument meant to imply that anyone did. You and I both agree that it makes sense to move the PC board forward to free the space above the stock speaker as Aristo has done in other tenders to make it easier to install a reasonably larger speaker without having to move anything else around. 

Later, 

K


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