# Train power For 200+ foot outdoor g-scale train???



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

Hello all,

I have some questions about power for a rather large garden G-scale railroad. I just moved and now in the process of rebuilding my railroad. We moved to a home that has much more room for trains. The old railroad was a 90 foot or so in a standard figure eight. The new plan is to have about a 220 foot figure eight or oval. I like simple constant operations. You know a train running though a beautiful miniature landscape. 

The power supply I was using before was most likely barley getting full power to the track. (Forgive me I don’t have the name of the power supply as it is packed away somewhere) The trains ran fine but I feel like at 70% they ran slow. My concern is that what I have now will not power 200+ feet of track. I do try to supply power to the track every 30 to 50 feet or so connecting back to the main power source. I read somewhere long ago that was a thing to do...

Anyway my question is this. What is the best way to power this layout for simple “rotate the dial and the train goes faster” or “set it and forget it” control?
B
Other contributing factors. I have many trains that I like to run from the pike TEE to some old LGB stock and a few Shays for fun. So I don’t want to have to convert each engine to run it. So batter power is out. However I will say I might consider DCC. 

So is there a rotate the dial type transformer this large of a layout? Or should I just bite the bullet and go DCC and if so the second question is... what will I need power wise boosters and all and what’s your favorite control systems?

Thank you so much in advance for your advice.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, build the system to handle DCC in the future, which is just a minor tweak from DC.

1. Do you already have the track? If not, even though everyone will complain about the cost, find NOS stainless steel rail and no more track "sanding",.
2. if you can afford them, get rail clamps, not joiners. 
3. if you have brass track, and don't want the expense of clamps, solder jumper wires between sections, it's easier than you think, and it costs nothing unless you need to buy a soldering iron.
4. get a 10 or 20 amp regulated DC supply... a switching supply, MeanWell makes them, 24v. When you go to DCC, you keep this supply.
5. use 10 gauge house wire (stranded is easiest), it is very inexpensive.
6. put the wire in conduit (it has thin insulation, the money you save on the wire will pay for the conduit.
7 get a 5 or 10 amp throttle that will run from DC, there are many options.

For me, I would bite the bullet, adding DCC to LGB and the shays is pretty simple, especially the newer shays come DCC and with a standard DCC socket.

I highly recommend the NCE 10 amp system. Works great, good price, lots of options. I am crazy, and run steep grades and long trains, so I went up a notch to Zimo, but 3 or 4 times the price. Never regretted it but I am indeed crazy.

Lots of info on my site about wiring, DCC, NCE, Zimo.






Track power, wiring & rail clamps


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




www.elmassian.com










NCE DCC


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




www.elmassian.com










Zimo DCC


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




www.elmassian.com





use the search function (top right menu each page) to find topics of interest.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I run DC and DCC on my layouts and I have DPDT center off switches to select the power source. Why center off?? I can turn off power to my track/s and test other power units for my friends in my club.


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## aztech78 (Dec 3, 2020)

As a newbie who has implemented what Greg says for just DC it is a good way to go. I asked similar question and have slowly implemented what I can/need and very happy. Using brass, but see validity in SS just not happening for me. If you go meanwell or any power supply, you can look at gscalegraphics' two DC controllers. I like the one with switch to toggle between pure dc and pwm.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Having pure DC capability is a must as many engines are now shipped wirh DCC and these do not like pulsed power as they can be confused and think the power source is DCC but can not sync with them and then do not run. I have the old Aristo 27mhz receivers and all are set to linear and I never switched them to pulsed power.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

That’s great info and advice. Thank you Guys. I will start looking. My wife and I were talking about this and she thinks I should go DCC. Just bite the bullet and jump into the technology. Lol so that may be where we are headed. Thank you so much.
Will


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

Thanks for the info Greg,it’s a big help.
So I have most of my track now. All LGB brass. Never had an issue cleaning. However I live in the PNW now. Who knows that a winter will do to the brass up here lol. I used a drywall sanding stick and find it quit peaceful to quickly run the tracks and give them a once over. Also thinking about building a cleaning car of some sort. 

Rail lamps are a must I completely agree. have always used them. Makes life so much nicer, no? 😊

so learning from my last layout the planing of this one is extensive, down to the conduit installations cuz well lessons were learned lol but thank you.

When you say use 10 gauge wire are you talking like Romex? I was using wire for garden lights and it seemed to work well. However I had thought about using Romex. Is that what you use?

ya I am thinking this is the way to go. Thank you so much for the advice, links and help. 
Will



Greg Elmassian said:


> So, build the system to handle DCC in the future, which is just a minor tweak from DC.
> 
> 1. Do you already have the track? If not, even though everyone will complain about the cost, find NOS stainless steel rail and no more track "sanding",.
> 2. if you can afford them, get rail clamps, not joiners.
> ...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Turns out you can get gauge 10 stranded wire with thin insulation cheaply from your big box store. The insulation is not resistant or thick enough for direct burial, like landscaping wiring, but landscaping wire is not a good choice due to expense and the fine strands oxidize easily.

The 10 gauge wire had fewer and thicker strands, but still flexible... easier to deal with than solid wire.

Romex is solid wire, even better resistant to the elements, but just too much to fight in my opinion, and romex is usually 3 strands, one more than you need, and more expense.

I got the 10 gauge stranded in white and black. It's really cost effective, so much that the conduit and the wire was an inexpensive solution.



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-100-ft-10-AWG-Stranded-Black-Copper-THHN-Wire-By-the-Roll/1000777260



You can get this down to about 26 cents a foot (ignore the price on the link, home depot is probably better).

If you can fight the solid wire, you can find 2 conductor romex in 10 gauge, and slit the jacket to pull the wires out and it will be easier to handle.

I will go to solid 10 gauge my next rewire, so I don't have to waterproof the stripped ends of the stranded wire, but it's still going strong about 15 years later, and I have acid soil and sea spray.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg is located in Southern California, I am in South Eastern Massachusetts. We have opposite weather concerns!! I use brass track with rail clamps with floating track, temperature can be a high of just over 100 F, or below 0 F year to year. And in direct sun the rails will be much hotter tham 100F, you can not touch them. Greg is near the ocean and uses stainless track. Interesting enough we both have the same Zimo DCC system. Greg needs power for big trains, I need high voltage for fast trains (read diesels but I do run some steam engines, all DCC equipped).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interestingly enough, often shiny metal is hotter in the sun than other "colors", for example see how hot chrome is in the sun, weird, but while it reflects visible light pretty well, it seems to absorb infra-red... 

So It can get that hot here too, and SS rail in the summer is not something you want to leave your hands on either. I likewise went to a full 24 volts on the rails as I run passenger trains at prototype speeds AND have a few steep grades.

In any case making a bulletproof, low loss power distribution to the rails always pays off in reliability and operation.

Greg


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Interestingly enough, often shiny metal is hotter in the sun than other "colors", for example see how hot chrome is in the sun, weird, but while it reflects visible light pretty well, it seems to absorb infra-red...
> 
> So It can get that hot here too, and SS rail in the summer is not something you want to leave your hands on either. I likewise went to a full 24 volts on the rails as I run passenger trains at prototype speeds AND have a few steep grades.
> 
> ...


So I am on an island in the middle of Puget Sound 75 miles from the Canadian boarder. As the crow flys. Am I screwed? Lol. No we never really get hot. 80’s is a heatwave. We see snow a few times in the winter but temps are in the mid 30s. Salt air I will have to contend with as we are a1/4 mile from the sea. However it does rain here so maybe that washes it away?

I was in the SF Bay Area and never had any issues with the tracks at all. Like I said before, it’s all brass and I use rail joiners. And for the most part it floats on crashed gravel. I should figure out how to upload some pics. Lol. My biggest issues there was weeds but then I didn’t do much weed abatement when I installed. Lessons were learned. Lol


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## avliska (May 20, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have some questions about power for a rather large garden G-scale railroad. I just moved and now in the process of rebuilding my railroad. We moved to a home that has much more room for trains. The old railroad was a 90 foot or so in a standard figure eight. The new plan is to have about a 220 foot figure eight or oval. I like simple constant operations. You know a train running though a beautiful miniature landscape.
> 
> ...


I chose "A" scale because we lived next to Charles Ro and product was easy to come by. At first, I used their big DC power pack and it worked fine. But track cleaning became such a huge problem with about 300 feet of mainline that I gave up running trains . . .until I WENT BATTERY! I bought the Revolution system from Reindeer Pass, and it's the best decision I ever made. I don't do computers well, but I found it easy peasy. A pretty simple installation. There are YouTube videos to assist. I mounted the batteries inside my USA TRAINS GP9, GP38, and AristoCraft RDC. A simple socket hidden on the body for charging and a speaker mounted inside. The locos run for hours on a charge. I can't recommend the Revolution system enough. It's got me running trains again, and not cleaning track or worrying about wiring. I hope this man's experience is helpful.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't see how track cleaning is a "huge" problem with 300 feet, I'd wager you had connection issues etc, that made it "huge"...

While your experience is your experience, saying "go battery" on a thread where the OP asks specific questions about track power is not really helpful here.

Of course if I went on a battery thread and said "go track power" tons of people would surface and chew me out.

Somehow this seems akin to some of our political issues lately...

In any case, track power works for many, and there are many pros and cons for each method.

Greg


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## astack (Apr 22, 2018)

Here’s my set up, which is similar to what you are thinking about: I have a single loop of ~120’ of stainless steel track. I was lucky and got the SS when Accucraft was clearing out their supply so it was not too pricy. I live in Knoxville and we get about 50” of rain per year, but cleaning track has been minimal effort; once or twice a year I go in with a damp papertowel and clean off the junk from trees and the occasional plastic wheels that I haven’t replaced yet. I also highly recommend SS because of that. I found that using both joiners and clamps gave me the best aligned track that also stays together, but it could be my poor rail-bending skills.

For motive motive power, I have young kids who like to play and run lots of different trains, so several of my locos and cars are from ebay and I am not spending a huge amount of money on them, e.g., I hunt for deals on pre-bankruptcy lgb and aristocraft that are in good shape but not expensive. Because of the mostly older engines, I haven’t gotten around to DCC yet.

As a power source, I use a USAT trainpower 10 transformer with a wireless remote made by G-Scale Graphics. I have never run into an issue with lack of power with that unit on my loop — I have only once or so put it at 100% power, because it is too fast. My longest train is an F-3 AB with both units powered and about 15 cars. The transformer does what most of what I need it to do, although even in a simple loop like mine it would be nice to have two different trains running at once and set their speeds independently using DCC. I have not felt that I had to run an extra line to keep the power up at the far side of the loop from the transformer, but at 200’, I am guessing you might need it.

I did put an thermal expansion section in the loop (two sets of rails that slide past each other as the rail heats up and expands). It does seem like it expands and contracts with the seasons so maybe it is important on the section of track that is nailed to the trestle. (East Tennessee is highly “topographical” so to speak and so the upper elevation portion of the layout is in a trench and the lower elevation portion is on a trestle.)

Anyhow, I hope this helps! -Andrew


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## avliska (May 20, 2021)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I don't see how track cleaning is a "huge" problem with 300 feet, I'd wager you had connection issues etc, that made it "huge"...
> 
> While your experience is your experience, saying "go battery" on a thread where the OP asks specific questions about track power is not really helpful here.
> 
> ...


Geez, Karen, try to help and I get your reply. My suggestion is VERY appropriate, as it's a GREAT solution to powering trains. I run trains outdoors in a desert with all kinds of debris constantly fouling the track. I tried rail clamps and it wasn't the solution. BATTERY POWER was! With people like you here, this isn't a very friendly place. Talk about not very helpful. And since it's important to you, MAGA.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*How are your trying to help? He did not ask should I go battery or track power. He has a very specific question, and very clearly explained his climate.*

Yes, since you are in the desert, you have a DIFFERENT problem. And there are a whole list of 'cons' for battery power also, it is not nirvana for everyone.

What would you say if you went to the doctor, for a broken hand, and your doctor lectured you on how to treat acne? Would you thank him for his help?

Of course not, you asked about your hand, not acne.

So if someone asks about wiring for track power in the Pacific Northwest, and you tell him how to convert to battery because you live in the desert how is that helpful?

Courtesy says to answer the question asked.

Greg


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

astack said:


> Here’s my set up, which is similar to what you are thinking about: I have a single loop of ~120’ of stainless steel track. I was lucky and got the SS when Accucraft was clearing out their supply so it was not too pricy. I live in Knoxville and we get about 50” of rain per year, but cleaning track has been minimal effort; once or twice a year I go in with a damp papertowel and clean off the junk from trees and the occasional plastic wheels that I haven’t replaced yet. I also highly recommend SS because of that. I found that using both joiners and clamps gave me the best aligned track that also stays together, but it could be my poor rail-bending skills.
> 
> For motive motive power, I have young kids who like to play and run lots of different trains, so several of my locos and cars are from ebay and I am not spending a huge amount of money on them, e.g., I hunt for deals on pre-bankruptcy lgb and aristocraft that are in good shape but not expensive. Because of the mostly older engines, I haven’t gotten around to DCC yet.
> 
> ...


Awesome and thanks. I will look into this option as well. Thanks for your info. Big help.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2020)

It’s all good guys. I appreciate a Avliska for your battery input. It’s always good to hear others experiences. 
And thank you Greg for keeping the conversation on “track” tee hee hee see what I did there?
For me battery power doesn’t feel like it fits my mission the best. However I completely see the pros for sure. But the recharging of battery’s and retrofitting engine and cars to carry battery’s just isn’t the road I want to travel. But I truly thank you for your input. 

Greg, you really have me looking at DCC lol 😂 also this whole discussion is really getting me excited to break ground. Sadly I have a few bigger projects to get done before then. 
Thank you all for you input and help. Keep the discussion going!!! 😁


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just did about 3 battery systems with AirWire and QSI decoders on Bachmann locos... since they had sockets it was a matter of minutes. I really appreciated track power when I looked at the difficulty of adding battery to small locos and to the Bachmann Climax... running track power, you can put a really nice speaker in it and run smoke and sound and lights.

Putting battery in it is really hard to even get one series of 3 lithiums, no room to improve the speaker, and cannot run smoke on the limited battery. Even smaller locos are even more difficult. I like to put a loco on the track and let it run for hours, and small locos or rail cars where it's really impossible to fit batteries and have any run time...

Here's something that could never have batteries and still look right:









I not only fitted DCC to it invisibly, but 4 low profile speakers to make an effectively larger speaker:









The decoder fits under the seat:









You can debate the pro's and cons until the cows come home, but I am happy I chose track power and don't have to couple trailing cars to my smaller locos, and I can run all day, and for me, my location does not have blowing dirt on the rails, so this solution works for me!

By the way, I have found that water on my rails keeps them cleaner, and I think your rain up there in Washington is much "cleaner" than the "dirty rain" others get. I think you will do fine with your decisions...

I will leave you with the smallest G scale loco I have, and it has DCC and a nice speaker in the coal hopper: (this was made by accucraft by the way):


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I have a fairly large track powered G Scale railroad in southern Arizona and use brass rail with Split-Jaw clamps. When putting in the wiring ( in conduit) I used #10 wire with #12 jumpers every 30 feet or so. Loops are about 250' each but have no issues running trains on all three loops at the same time with NCE power pack. I did buy a LGB track cleaning engine but 3 or 4 times around each loop keeps track clean.


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