# Panic! I need some comments real quick...



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

So I ordered 5 tons of tan DG for a very hefty price, it was several hundreds for delivery because it was being trucked in from 60 miles away. Truck showed up with gray crusher fines.

I had to send the truck back and I'm faced with an issue. For $600 I can have what I wanted shipped out again or for $200 I can get another type of dirt.

Here's a picture of my choices.

Far left is the $600, middle is $200, and the far right is #10 (or was it #12) masonary sand.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

hmm..none of it looks very good to me.. 
what does "DG" mean? 

it all looks very "dirty"..you arent just getting rock, you are getting a lot of smaller particles along with it.. 
sure, any gravel for ballast will have *some* dust associated with it, but based on your photo, yours looks a lot "muddier" 
than what I am used to seeing.. 

and you said you ordered tan, but the truck arrived with grey..the stuff on the far left doesnt look grey to me..it looks tan!  
Can you maybe post a few other photos? I dont think we are getting a good idea of what you are looking at, from that one photo.. 

Scot


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

As you can see I wetted down the middle about 2 hours ago so some is still wed. It packed in pretty well and there are small rocks, possible chipped or crushed, with mostly sharp edges. 

The far left has larger stones, it was sometimes hard to keep the SSVR ties from showing their center spline. I kind of liked the larger boulder look (My railroad will be mostly western'ish look, I do live in Utah and there's a lot of brown around). 

The middle did seem to have a bit more sand'ish dirt in it than rocks, as the picture shows.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh, the pictures are of samples I got a couple weeks ago from a trip up north to their design center/plant. Nothing that came today is in the pictures... 

Yes, it's very 'dirty' but that dirt turns to into an almost concrete like strength when it dries. 

DG = decomposed granite.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

oh! now there are more photos! 
(when I posted the reply above, only the first photo showed up..now I see four photos) 
ok then, thats a little clearer.. 

stuff on the far left looks ok..tan crusher fines..isnt that what you wanted in the first place? 
stuff in the middle looks no good to me..particles are too fine..it looks like dirt. 
and the grey stuff on the far right is no good either..particles are too small.. 

the stuff on the left looks ok..maybe a bit muddy, but not too bad.. 
(maybe your small sample just had a lot of dirt with it..) 

Of the three, only the stuff on the left looks decent to me.. 

Is this *only* for ballast? or are you using it for other things as well? 
I cant imagine 5 tons of ballast! 

my comments are based on "usabality for ballast" only..but you never actually used the word ballast, 
and you didnt actually say what this is for.. 
Scot


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here is a close up, the DG is again on the left, smaller stuff in the middle of the other pictures is on the right side in this picture.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon,

I can definitely hear the panic coming from you! It has happened to all of us. But you need to backup for a second and take a deep breath. The photo below shows what Russ Rutalj used on his elevated layout. This is SV code 250 aluminum rail. He used #5 crusher stones that come in a 50# bag. Most masonry syupply houses carry this stone. Buy a couple of bags and experiment for size and color. Put water on it and see what happens. You are buying materials and spending a ton of money to try to finish your project today. Just get small amounts of the material and try it out. Then order as you need it. Unless you have a crew of twenty folks standing around waiting to use these materials, you should be in no rush. That's where the panic and stress starts. This hobby is supposed to be FUN! I've followed your posts for quite a while as you ask questions and get answers. I feel you are afraid to make a mistake. No worry. We all have made mistakes in this hobby AND LEARNED from them. You might have had a learning experience today. Just take it easy and step back. Enjoy what you are doing! It is NOT really the final product, but the journey you want to appreciate. Just an old man talking here.


















EDIT: BTW, the stuff you are holding in your hand on the right side, looks very close to #5 crushers we used. Maybe what we used might be a little tiny bit larger, but not much.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Panic mostly comes from having the company who has the ideal stuff not wanting to do business with me, they wanted me to let them know asap if I wanted the truck to come back with the other stuff, and this weekend was the best time for me to get the dirt in for a few weeks so I would hate to miss that window and all... As of right now I just paid $100 for 'truck time' on the order they got wrong but at least it's not the total bill. I need to call back soon though to have a truck here still today though. :-/


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 01 Jun 2012 01:40 PM 
Panic mostly comes from having the company who has the ideal stuff not wanting to do business with me, they wanted me to let them know asap if I wanted the truck to come back with the other stuff, and this weekend was the best time for me to get the dirt in for a few weeks so I would hate to miss that window and all... As of right now I just paid $100 for 'truck time' on the order they got wrong but at least it's not the total bill. I need to call back soon though to have a truck here still today though. :-/ 
Why would YOU have to pay "truck time", if THEY got the order wrong?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

My advice? Drive to the quarry and go to the scales, and see if somebody there can take you around and show you their products so you can make the right choice. The original material might be better after you wash it. Try dumping it in a large pail, fill the pail with water, and stir it while decanting off the dirty water. Then see what that looks like. It looks a little coarse (large) to me, and what they are calling sand looks coarse for sand but maybe a little fine for ballast. Of course you can always blend the two! Maybe you should take a couple of pails with you when you go to the quarry so you can get a couple types to try out without spending all that money on trucking. 

Keith


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

They claimed we were both at fault. split the 'truck time'. I felt bad, offered. I probably didn't have to but I feel better. 

The water test (house with the "shower" attachment on and about 40psi at 3') actually resulted with the smaller middle dirt holding together better. Both of the browns harden a little like concrete but if you get them wet again they become very workable. There's probably some clay or something in them that dries hard and holds. When leaving the track to dry in the dirt and then lifting the track up results in the ties filled with both types of dirt tough the smaller dirt is barely more 'stuck' between the ties than the larger DG rock mix. I have to use my fingers or bang the track against something to break the dirt out of the ties. 

So what makes ballast better or worse, besides having sharp edges? Is it the natural glue factor regardless of rock size, or is it purely rock size? It's almost as though the smaller dirt particles hold better than DG, and both hold better together than gravel which a lot of people are happy with. I personally like the color and look of the DG but (oddly) the smaller seems to not wash out as easily and hides the center spline of the SVRR ties better. Ideally I'd want small dirt for areas where there isn't track (scenery) and the larger rock for ballast since this is more prototypical but it's as though the glue factor is reveresed.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

My personal opinion about ballast is that you do NOT want anything that becomes concrete like. You want a stable foundation (even a concrete strip if you want), then a layer (1/4 to 1/2 inch thick) of small "angular" rocks (1/8 inch diameter) then the track with a second layer of the same small rocks over it to settle between the ties (and hide any connector strips).

Thermal expansion and contraction is going to move the track and the more you try to lock it down, the more catastrophic the problem when it DOES move... And it WILL move! It will warp, kink, split, separate, narrow, bend, you name it, it WILL do it. Okay, it will not jump up and do the macarana in your neighbor's yard, but it will move and dump your train on the ground.

Ballast is to CONTROL the movement, not PREVENT it.

In your photos, the stuff on the RIGHT looks a bit small, but otherwise is much better than the muddy and oversized boulders from the middle and to the left.

The only problem with my recommendation for just plain loose small rocks is that toy train track is comparitively too light to sink into the ballast like it should, and the track will tend to float too high in the ballast (exposing the connector strips) and will look like you need to add ballast. Of course, when you do add ballast the track again will float to the top and look like you need to add ballast. This creates a large hill for the track to sit on and results in it being more unstable (side to side) than we would like.

Get CLEAN small angular rocks for ballast.

Real Railroads actually take up ballast, wash it, and put it back down when it gets too dirty.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Cougar, we posted at bearly the same time so I didn't see your post. I did visit pits which is how I ended up with these two. I guess to some degree I don't know what I should be looking for. I wanted a brown color first, western desert like color, and something with sharp edges. I didn't find anything that was washed and fit these two areas but I hadn't worried about it not being washed since whatever that dust is, it's like cement. I saw how several people had mixed various meterals (cement like) into their gravel to help for ballasting and I figured I lucked out in that attribute coming naturally... It's times like this when I wish I had a truck or trailer so I wasn't at the mercy of 5 ton minimums and huge delivery costs... I'm all for taking ti slow but being at their mercy it's an 'all or none' sort of thing.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Semper: The gray #10 sand on the right had problems with wind and rain moving the ballast around too much, it seemed too light and moved from just the smallest rain droplet. Even sprinklers would wash the ballast out. The other two are more 'concrete like' in the sense that if I lift the track the ballast doesn't slide right out and it stays in place during rain/wind. I get 60mph winds very often where I live... 

Where is the ideal line between material that is so light and moves so easily and material that hardens up like a compressed ball of clay? Both dirts would move if there's enough force, the middle though seemed to break cleaner and that DG I could see being more likely to cause the track to lift up from expansion as it doesn't break horizontally but it still does, definitely not cement hard but not loose gravel either.


Window to get the order in the for the weekend is gone, the upside is at least I'm not working with something that I didn't want.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe Paul Burch posted on one of your threads about how he puts ballast on his large layout, in Gig Harbor, Washington. His track is laid on a concrete base and then he applies his ballast using a diluted concrete glue. There will ALWAYS be ballast maintenance, no matter what you do.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I define for us G folks, roadbed is under the track, main support ,ballast is "dressing". makes it look realistic.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Brandon on 01 Jun 2012 02:27 PM 
It's times like this when I wish I had a truck or trailer so I wasn't at the mercy of 5 ton minimums and huge delivery costs..
How much would it be to hire one for the day?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Prices I saw were about $75/hr, $200 for 4 hours, and $300 for the day but my small hatchback couldn't tow more than a couple hundred lb's... That middle sand I got a firm price, $140 for 5 tons delivered, not bad. It's like $4.90 per ton plus delivery charge from a nearby plant. Maybe I could possibly use that to cover the current nasty clay everywhere, a few inches thick, and then I could just use the expensive stuff for ballast/dressing the track... I probably don't need 4" thick of ballasting material if 3" of bedding sand is fine?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

5 tons....woof. That's called being aggressive. See ya on chat someday. 

If you are NOT happy...return it if they're saying it's no cost to you. 

I'd go to the place, pick what I want, and bring 600 lbs home in my car. Cars can always handle that weight...and see how it looks. 

If you like it, I'd drive the 60 miles three more times. It does take a while to put this stuff on and level it. If you have a pickup...double the load.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

If you're going for the dirt ballast look, the stuff on the right in the picture of you're hand looks pretty good.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We're pretty famous here in San Diego for Decomposed Granite, lots where Mike lives and where we have a family home where I was mostly raised. 

I have a couple of friends nearby that used DG on their layouts. 

Pro's are that it looks really realistic and locks the track in place really well, but cons are that it does not look like traditional prototype ballast, and is a bit of work to break loose if you move or change track around. 

I like the look for NG, because it looks old and more like dirt, I don't like the look for mainline standard gage because it does not look like the traditional gravel ballast. 

If it was me, and I lived in a windy or rainy place and I wanted to minimize track maintenance, I'd probably go for it. I don't get a lot of rain or wind, so I use crushed gravel, pretty coarse. 

Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I read your posts and I didnt understand what your base is. Are you digging a trench and free floating the track or are you using some sort of base such as a ladder or concrete? 

I'll answer based on each type of base... 

The trench method you need a material with fines in it. That is the stuff you are calling clay or dirt, at least mostly. You have some clay in the fines because it is sticking to your track. That is ok, clay will prevent water absorbtion. Most Dept of Transportation offices require a certain amount of clay in their gravel roads to keep rainwater from absorbing into the road. This is a also a good thing for your trnech as it then prevents heaving. BUT, too much clay will cause it to swell when it gets wet and mess up your level track. 

A simple test you can use to get a rough estimate of the clay in your fines. Get some fines from your material, just the fines take out most of the larger rock. Wet the material in your hand. Dont drench but just enough to get all the material wet. Then try to clump it up in your hand like a mudball. How easy does the material clumps up determines the clay content. Ideally the material should clump up but want to fall apart and crumble. If it stays together and has a smooth surface plus you notice a lot of the material sticking to your hand then you probably have too much clay. 

Now, the fines are needed to create a solid base. The fines prevent the larger rock, which is your strength, from moving around. The trench method needs a material with fines in it. 

If you are using a base such as a ladder or concrete or whatever. Then the ballast is only cosmetic, like Marty said. Get a clean rock for that. I know they make it. If the quarry you are at, doesnt. Then go to another, it is a very common made material and you should be able to find it. The clean stuff I would just buy bags of it because you wont use a large amount of it. Go to a contractor supply store and ask for Sample Bags or sand bagging bags. These are great for getting some material. 

Hope this helps.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

My track will be free floating. 

People use cement curbing for bordering grass around here (Utah) so in the pictures below, where the trenches that's where the cement curbing will be placed on top of. It's dug down 2"-4" (shallower where the clay was so compressed it needed a pck-axe to chip it away). 

I had quite a bit of settling in the front yard where the curbing was (up to 3") so I dug this curbing/ground area out in the backyard and I will be bringing in something (Was planning on using DG since it locks up nicely yet drains) to level the ground up to within 1/4". It's behind this curbing where the track will go, which is why I want that curbing within 1/4" inch variance all the way around. The curbing is 4" tall on the back which means I'll also need to fill this void with several inches of something (again, I was planning on using DG for this as the DG seemed to be good for ballast, water draining, leveling, compaction, and so on, but now I may get a few different materials instead). 

I'm now thinking maybe some bedding sand under the curbing (to help make leveling it out easier -- it's what the dirt in the middle of the top picture was, and the material on the right side of my hand in the close up, it's often used for putting below paver stones so I'd have to imagine once compacted it would be a good base.) 
Behind the curbing I think I'll get some 3/4" rock for a 2" layer, 1/4" gravel for a 1" layer, then the DG as the top layer everywhere track/ballast will be and where track isn't I'll add some bedding sand or top soil. 

I had thought DG was a 'solves all' instead of buying several different types of rock but I guess not. I'd hate thought o put 3/4" and gravel down behind the curbing in case I ever wanted to plant trees or stuff, it would be a pain to dig through that but I imagine 3" of bedding sand instead of 3/4" and 1/4" rock wouldn't be a wise choice? that bedding sand would be nice for planting stuff.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You can use DG for both Roadbed and Ballast, you just need to wash and skreed it for ballast. 
You want water to flow through it, silt will collect moisture and perhaps dam it up, then burst for a nice wash out... 
Put down barrier cloth first to keep the rocks on top of the dirt, they are known to migrate! 

Lay your roadbed first, spread out, tamp it down to just under track level, water to set. Then for ballast, wash out all of the silt and screen out the bigger stones with a skreed (a wooden box frame covered with 3/16 - 1/4" hardware cloth). Shovel it on and if it's still damp, work it through with a broom. Yes as an upside down box. The frame will collect your rewards....er hard earned product. You'll need smaller stones to cover your tie web and to stay under your smaller rail height. I'd wash it on a tilted surface using a brush to retain the fine bits of broken rock, let the 'color' go. Then skreed. I usually work one 5 gal bucket at a time... short attention span....









It's not rocket science, it's just dirt! When we choose to play outside, Ma nature gets to set the rules. My ballast dances when the Monsoons play the music. I keep extra ballast handy in a 5 gal bucket along with a cheap nylon 4" paintbrush to spread it about and to clear our flange ways. Pour a mound on and brush it out... mainlines manicured, branch lines adequate, sidings; not so much. 

Happy Rails 

John


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