# Can an iPad work with Topo Maps and a GPS? OT



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I know virtually nothing about Apple products other than my wife and I bought an iPad for our severe autistic granddaughter and we played with it a bit before we gave it to her for Christmas (she loves it). I did not want to get hooked into wanting one so I made no effort to learn anything about it.

Now a different situation has come up in that Marilyn and I like to look for old Arkansas Railroads and I recently had a large 1930 Geological map of Arkansas scanned so we can use it with our laptops when searching out the old railroads. My thought was to use this Jpeg map with our laptops and I also have Garmin Topo maps on an aviation GPS plus on the laptop plus I added MS Streets and Trips with a GPS attachment so the laptop can follow where we are on Streets and Trips.

I thought I was home free until Marilyn asked if we could not use an iPad instead of a laptop because the iPad would be so much easier for her to use in the car and on the trails and apparently has a 10 hour battery. I think she wants an iPad and I think I need to find a way for her to justify it.

Here is where I am stumped...

I don't know anything about software for or the abilities of an iPad. I presume there is a way to transfer the Jpeg maps (about 2gb) to the iPad and I assume I will need some sort of software to read the maps (I have no idea what that software would be).

That leaves the question about whether there is something like MS Streets and Trips with a GPS that could be loaded onto an iPad and give it the ability to follow (by GPS) where we are but just as important to show it on a topo map (not just a street map) so that means more software and GPS hardware. Again I don't know if such a thing is available.

Last (I hope) is the question about the various iPads. Memory is an obvious feature but then there is WiFi and 3G (I don't know what 3G is other than I think it requires an expensive cell phone connection with monthly charges).

Now I just read: 
*
"The next iteration of the iPad will have a high definition screen, but won’t launch until next year. That’s the latest rumour surrounding the iPad 3. *


*The past few months have seen persistent rumours suggesting that the **iPad 2** is simply a stopgap device for Apple, and that the **iPad 3 will be where the real advancements** are made.


There is some good news for those who are underwhelmed with the iPad 2, though. Apparently, Apple has revealed its latest tablet plan to manufacturers, and has asked touchscreen makers to start producing products that are able to “support higher image quality than the current iPad 2.” This might even include a “Full HD” panel."*
so maybe this is the wrong time to be thinking about buying an iPad since it is the topo maps that I would want to use with it.

Any ideas, comments?

If anyone wants to comment on alternative brands and products that is OK but I suspect we will end up with an iPad 2 or 3 unless there are things (like GPS) that others can do and iPad cannot do. Anything with a smaller screen will be a non-starter for us.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry:

I would be very surprised if you could link a jpg picture (map) with a GPS receiver. The GPS topo maps are relatively complex files. I don't know about Garmin, but I use Delorme hand held Gps and their receiver with my laptop. I have topo coverage the entire country on my laptop at a scale of 1:100,000. I was and am primarily a Mac user, but I had to buy a windows laptop several years ago because the Delorme software that I used with my GPS was not Mac compatable. Delorme sells DVDs with state topo information (scanned 7.5 minute quadrangles) I imagine that Garman does the same. The original 7.5 minute maps are done at a scale of 1:24,000 as opposed to your state map at a scale of 1:500,000. The combination of the two maps would be ideal. The 7.5 minute maps show the current roads and in many cases show abandoned railway lines.


Go to a hunting and fishing store that sells Garmin products and look at the supplemental maps that can be down loaded to the hand held units. Look on the package and see what hardware is supported. It will state on the package if is is mac compatible.


Chuck 


Added after further thought.

I recommend that you go to the Delorme.com website and look at the LT-40 with street maps (about $60) and Topo 9.0 (about $100). This will turn a lap top into a state of the art high tech GPS. Assuming most of your travel and searching will be by car. This will be your best bet. You will be able to toggle back and forth between your JPGs and the GPS. For an additional $30 per year you have unlimited access to their map library. They have the entire country on 7.5 minute USGS maps. You should be able to down load everything you need in the first year.


The LT-40 is a GPS receiver that plugs directly into your laptop. This turn it into a super GPS system. Garmin may have something similar, but I haven't followed their products since I upgraded to Delorme from Garmin about 4 years ago.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, just wait. GPS aided mapping programs will be coming out by the dozens for the iPad in the next year. There is a market for them as aircraft navigation aides right now...and development is big there...and it will be topographic based. Same story for sports fishing applications. With that GPS receiver inside, there's a lot of "map" stuff coming out soon. 

And...don't expect it to work well in a car. The GPS is has does not like to be inside metal...and that's a problem for the aircraft navigation version right now.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Mike. When you are ready to buy and use it, buy it. Everything is obsolete the minute after you buy it.

Chuck 


I would have to say that the Delorme LT-40 receiver works very well in a car and under a heavy forest canopy. Much better than any of my earlier GPSs.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Chuck and Mike,

I did not explain myself clearly. I know I would not be able to link my topo maps to a MS/IBM compatible program and GPS. I was looking for a two stage solution:

1. A way to load my 1930 or other old Jpg maps into the iPad along with software to view them.
2. As a separate function - to be able to buy a GPS receiver with current topo software that is compatible with the iPad.

I will still have my old Garmin GPSMAP 295 with topo software that I can use while driving. I can program routes for the GPSMAP 295 from a laptop but the waypoints are too few and unable to follow frequent curves. In effect I would use the Garmin to get to where we would need to go on foot and the iPad would be for when we were right at locations where the Garmin topo data is either too new (no old railroads) or we need to leave the car and have a larger screen.

I would have to use both the current topo maps with the GPS and switch between that and software running the old topo Jpeg maps.

Are you saying that the iPad already has a GPS built into it?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sure that the ipad has GPS built in. Your question was would it work with other map based GPS programs. Based on my experience , I doubt it. Because, the GPS software I'm familiar with isn't Apple compatible. This most likely will change, but I haven't a clue when. I was suggesting options that would work now.


Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Most of the Apple GPS "software" is based on receiving maps over the data network (wireless Internet or broadband). Have not found one that will work standalone. 

Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck's right. There is a GPS inside the Ipad2. It's useless for what you want to do IF you insist on using your 1930 maps. There's no way to register nor scale the maps...and that's a high tech job. 

You can load the maps as a jpg...and display em for sure. But, there will be NO indication on that display of your map of where you are from the GPS...period. The BEST you could do is to wait until there is a topo program that is integrated with the GPS that allows you to insert "points"...and through that, you could insert key references from your 1930 map...and believe me when I tell you that will be a total bitch...but at least a topo program is going to show elevation and waterways...but no old RR grades.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry:

My suggestions will work now and if you have a laptop the cost a lot less than an Ipad and you won't be paying a high monthly internet access fee. You can be set up and going for about $200.


Chuck


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## NormG (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi to all

Navigon in the App Store is available for both the iPhone and iPad (pay once and use on both devices) and includes *downloaded on board maps*, for Auto Navigation for North America and many other countries. (separate price for each country). As a result it does *not* require one to be connected to the expensive network for map updates while navigating.


I have been testing against my old style Garmin, and it does a pretty good job. Some features are better, and others not so good.

I have been looking for a device to take travelling, ie New Zealand, to avoid having too many devices, and seems like an excellent option so far. 

On the iPhone the screen is a bit small but for an all in one take along device I am thinking it would be a great option. The voice prompts are very clear and for the most part logical.

I do not have an iPad (yet??) but am thinking it might be a good option to replace my old Garmin, but still not quite decided yet. 

There is no Utopia!! Sigh

Norm G


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## Joe Bartolini (Jan 2, 2008)

It is possible to make your own GPS maps. It is allot of work and time. Also will require the use of numerous free software programs. Search Google for "make GPS maps". Also when I bought my Garmin back in 2007 I purchased a book, "GPS Mapping, make your own maps" which is now out of print, but could be found at used book sellers. The book's author also maintained a website http://www.makeyourownmaps.com/ which is still online. Don't know if it has been updated in a while. There is also a Yahoo Group site on GPS Mapping that is active named GPS Maps. 
There is a steep learning curve that I have not been able to get into. BTW I have a Garmin GPSMap 60CSx. It works well in creating tracks of my hikes in the swamps even under the cover of full summer canopy. By downloading the gpx file from the unit to my computer and then uploading the file into http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ I am able to have the track and/or waypoints superimposed atop several map types including USGS topos. Go here to see a sample http://bartoliniville.us/maps/index.html Looking through the book mentioned above it does describe how to create a real-time moving map on a laptop or PDA. No I am not interested in getting rid of my copy of the book as eventually I would like to find the time to sit down and create my own maps. Good luck.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Norm:

Does Navigon have topographic maps or is it just street and road maps, without topography?


Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 13 Apr 2011 10:34 PM 
Jerry:

My suggestions will work now and if you have a laptop the cost a lot less than an Ipad and you won't be paying a high monthly internet access fee. You can be set up and going for about $200.


Chuck 



Hi Chuck,

The laptops I and Marilyn have can work with the Jpeg maps and I already have MS Streets and Trips with the external GPS (I bought it used for $25) so I can pretty much do everything now at no extra cost. 

The difference is that Marilyn is talking herself into an iPad so I figure we might as well see if we can get one that will work with the Jpeg maps and new topo software that will work with a GPS (internal or external).

Rather than spend more money on old laptops I might as well let her get a new iPad and whatever we need to make it work. Even if I pay 1/2 the cost it will be well worth it because of the convenience of not trying to balance a laptop and its screen etc.

Marilyn has a new work laptop with a screen that swivels and lays flat on the keyboard with the screen up.

After 44 years of marriage I know it is best to let Marilyn buy what she needs or thinks she needs. Its far cheaper in the long run and she spends very little money on herself. Its her husband who spends money like a drunken Irishman (oops I AM part Irish - but at least I don't drink).

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By NormG on 14 Apr 2011 05:52 AM 
Hi to all

Navigon in the App Store is available for both the iPhone and iPad (pay once and use on both devices) and includes *downloaded on board maps*, for Auto Navigation for North America and many other countries. (separate price for each country). As a result it does *not* require one to be connected to the expensive network for map updates while navigating.

Norm G 


Hi Norm,

Navigon sounds interesting. We don't have any iPhones but I think our daughter might so I will look into that.

We will probably wait for the iPad 3 since Marilyn will not be retiring for a few months anyway and we still have the regular laptops to use in the meantime.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Joe Bartolini on 14 Apr 2011 06:30 AM 
It is possible to make your own GPS maps. It is allot of work and time. Also will require the use of numerous free software programs. Search Google for "make GPS maps". Also when I bought my Garmin back in 2007 I purchased a book, "GPS Mapping, make your own maps" which is now out of print, but could be found at used book sellers. The book's author also maintained a website http://www.makeyourownmaps.com/ which is still online. Don't know if it has been updated in a while. There is also a Yahoo Group site on GPS Mapping that is active named GPS Maps. 
There is a steep learning curve that I have not been able to get into. BTW I have a Garmin GPSMap 60CSx. It works well in creating tracks of my hikes in the swamps even under the cover of full summer canopy. By downloading the gpx file from the unit to my computer and then uploading the file into http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ I am able to have the track and/or waypoints superimposed atop several map types including USGS topos. Go here to see a sample http://bartoliniville.us/maps/index.html Looking through the book mentioned above it does describe how to create a real-time moving map on a laptop or PDA. No I am not interested in getting rid of my copy of the book as eventually I would like to find the time to sit down and create my own maps. Good luck. 

Hi Joe,

Once again you have come up with some very interesting information. 

Book learning has always been difficult for me and now with my bad memory I am unlikely to attempt to learn new software but that book "GPS Mapping, make your own maps" sounds very interesting (I did not know that was possible). It would be great if I could create or update a topo map for my old GPSMAP295 since Garmin no longer supports it.

My Street Pilot III won't read the memory chip anymore and Garmin told me they no longer repair them. I guess I am becoming obsolete along with my equipment.

Since I lost my medical and quit flying I stopped trying to keep up to date with new GPS stuff so I have no idea what is currently available. I just settle for whatever has the best Black Friday sales and annually buy a couple new GPS's rather than spend the money updating the old GPS's.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## NormG (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck

Navigon is basically an Automobile GPS Nav system, but can also be useful when walking about in a strange city etc

I have looked at another called "Topo Maps" Not sure if it is reformatted for the iPad? I think most can be used on the iPad but if not reformatted, they do not take advantage of the larger better screen. It is possible to download all maps from USGS and other sites, so all data is stored on the device so they can be used when away from cell phone and/or Wi Fi.


You can delete those you are no longer interested in as well so if short of on board storage can be corrected. I have not actually used it for a Hiking situation, so can not attest to the level of detail, for specific trails etc, but I believe it can be used to pinpoint your position and proximity to features, within the level of detail of the maps available. I don't believe it has the same tracking capability as for instance a Garmin 76 CS???, but again have not looked in to all features.

There is another Company called James Associates, a Mac base GPS company, who I believe may be working on iPhone solutions, who sell maps for various regions, and Integrate Garmin with MAC computers as well. You might want to check their web site. Again not familiar in detail to comment further.

Cheers

NormG


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry:

if you are going into the rural and outback, street and road maps on GPS are not going to be much help. They will get you to the nearest road, but many back country roads and trails are only available on the USGS 7.5 minute series. Most 7.5 minute series maps that I am familiar with have old abandoned railways on them. Your state map will be helpful in getting you close, but it lacks the detailed topography to really place you. If you really want to follow the old railroads you will need the 7.5 maps either analog (Paper) or somebodies digital files. Using the state map at 1:500,000 is like trying to find your street on your State's highway map.


Chuck 


After a little more work, here is an example.

I chose the Ophir Loop on the RGS. I have centered the maps on Ames, Colorado. The street map shows Ames and Ophir loop, but you would be hard pressed to find the old railroad grade and use the street map for navigation in the field.











Here is the USGS 7.5 minute map of the same area. If you look carefully you can see "grade and old rr grade" on the map. It then is not difficult to find where the old RGS went.










These are close, but not exactly the same scale. As a retired geologist, my thought is to wander into the back country without a 7.5 minute USGS quadrangle map and a compass is not recommended. I once went up a mountain in New Mexico without a compass and the fog came in and we almost went down the wrong side.


Chuck 


Several last thoughts.

I use a GPS all the time. If you read the instructions that come with most of them they say not to rely on the GPS as your sole source for navigation. Always have a analog (real) compass. It isn't all that difficult to loose the GPS signal. I have lost mine under a heavy tree canopy and with thick clouds between me and the the satellites. Nothing really substitutes for a real compass and a paper map. It is often that the screen on the GPS is too small to really show the surrounding area in sufficient detail. My thinking is that an IPOD screen might be better, but not by much.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Chuck,

My background is a lot different. I am not a geologist but after I retired I became the Chief Check Pilot for the Arkansas Civil Air Patrol and later for a few years I flew Fire Watch for the Arkansas Forestry Commission so I am experienced using topo maps both for search and rescue and for guiding ground fire teams around forest fires.

I do have all the high definition topo maps for Arkansas but there is a lot of difference between the aviation topo maps and the Arkansas Geological Survey map showing the railroad routes and normal GPS units with their street and road mapping.

As an example, here is an image from my Garmin GPSMAP topo software as displayed on a PC (same resolution but smaller screen on the actual GPS):












and the same area on the Arkansas Geological map.











Both images are capable of higher resolution but either are able to show the topo features and the railroad line (or if the Garmin map does not have the railroad marked, waypoints could be added resulting from the Geological map). If no railroad was displayed either map would be good enough to get an idea of where a railroad would have run.

For comparison, here is a Garmin topo of your area (higher resolution is available):











As you suggest, no pilot should ever depend on a GPS alone as they are always subject to failure. For that matter aviation compasses are also prone to failure so a check ride always involves disabling any GPS, compass or other navigation device and the pilot is only allowed use of a paper map (throw in a little vertigo and it is not difficult to get some low time pilots lost within 5 miles of the airport).

Among pilots IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) sometimes jokingly is referred to as I Follow Railroads.

We are saying pretty much the same thing.

Meanwhile Marilyn and I are probably not going to do anything until the iPad 3 is out and then only if it has GPS (with topo) capability.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm glad that Garmin has the detail you need. Now all you need is an IPAD that works with the Garmin software.

I sincerely hope that Garman, Delorme and and other mainstream GPS providers will make their Topographic software Apple compatible. 


I have to say that because of the problem with GPS, read lack of support on a Mac, Nancy and I are now using a windows machine almost exclusively. I needed GPS support and didn't get it. I had to buy a windows laptop. Do I regret it, not really. For my purposes, with the exception of GPS, I don't see any real differences, other than the close (Quit) button is on the upper left on the MAC and the upper right on the HP.


Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 15 Apr 2011 10:10 PM 
I have to say that because of the problem with GPS, read lack of support on a Mac, Nancy and I are now using a windows machine almost exclusively. I needed GPS support and didn't get it. 

Chuck 



Hi Chuck,

That is the kind of information I need. I have never owned an Apple product so I have no knowledge about their products or services.

My original thought was wondering if I could do with an iPad what I can currently do with Garmin and Windows. 

Since Apple uses graphics based processors and Windows does not I had expected Apple to be better than Windows with GPS and Garmin topographic software. That was an assumption that was not based on personal experience.

If Windows is better then perhaps rather than an iPad I may instead need a Windows laptop that has a screen that swivels and lays flat with the screen up such as my wife has from work.

Perhaps someone knows of such a laptop that is in the same price range as an iPad (including the cost of software for the iPad)?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Martino2579 (Jun 4, 2008)

You could have a look at http://www.gaiagps.com/ 

I've only had a quick look myself but it does seem an interesting product 

Don't get too tied up with the iPad v laptop concept. The iPad is as different from a laptop as a laptop is from a full scale desktop. It can do somethings a laptop cannot and vice versa. I have an iPad, a MacBook Pro, an iMac desktop and access to a PC. They all have different uses. I must confess that I use the iPad for most tasks now as it's just so easy, fast and convenient. There is very little I would use the PC for as compared with the Mac available programs and abilities it's just so difficult - but that's purely subjective, and what works for me. 

It's like using a camera phone. Very convenient and pretty good results, but I still prefer a big DSLR and have hankerings for going back to my film SLR every now and then!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Martino2579:

Th question is, does that site have aps with detailed topographic maps or is just a street and road map site? I tried to get in to find out what they have, but I couldn't. Perhaps it only responds to an IPAD signal.


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## Martino2579 (Jun 4, 2008)

Yes, they have detailed topographic maps. They are at http://www.gaiagps.com/map_store. Of course you can only down load them into an app, but I believe if you email the owners on the website link they can send you details and screen shots of what they have. I downloaded the free app and was sufficiently impressed to buy the paid ap at $12.99. I'd give the site owners a call, they seem friendly!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Martino2579 on 16 Apr 2011 08:41 AM 
I still prefer a big DSLR and have hankerings for going back to my film SLR every now and then! 

I can relate to that. Years ago I bought a film scanner so I could convert my 35mm film images to digital images (hardly ever used it) and later I bought a DSLR but ended up using inexpensive point and shoot digital cameras but I end up feeling like I have lost something important. I don't feel like I am doing photography as much as capturing a moments image to share with others for a moments information. There is a lack of feeling of having accomplished something.

Since most of my images end up on the internet it is OK but like you I have hankerings for going back to my film SLR every now and then.

For now my laptops and Garmin GPS's and GPS software are able to do the job fine. I will wait until after my wife retires in a few months, seen just how convenient or inconvenient it turns out to be to use the laptop while tracing old railroads and perhaps we might be able to get our granddaughter to let us borrow her iPad and download some apps into it to see how they work.

I appreciate all the suggestions and I may be back in several months or when the iPad 3 comes out to find what additional information others may have discovered by then.

The iPad is interesting but it is not overwhelming. I can easily sit back and wait until the iPad3 is available. I might end up buying an iPad2 after the iPad3 is out as I often find that buying 2nd generation electronics provides all the quality I need at a fraction of the cost of the newest and bestest.

I should add that the reason I zeroed in on the 1930 Geological Survey Map in preference to (or actually in support of) the Garmin GPS Maps and the high resolution topo maps is because I have discovered that most Arkansas topo maps are too new and were created long after railroad tracks and ties had been removed. There are many sections of old railroad tracks that are not shown on them or that have been replaced by roads and highways that were laid over the old railroad track beds.

By comparison the 1930 Arkansas Geological Survey map is perfect in that so far I have been able to locate every old and abandoned Arkansas railroad I have looked for because those railroads were still in operation in 1930 or at least the tracks had not been removed and or roads had not been laid over the railroad track bed at that time.

Because I had the map scanned at 1200DPI, I can now view that map at a scale that is perhaps 10 times the original scale of the map - enough at least to identify which side of a hill, creek or river the old railroad was on. 
I can view or print the Arkansas Geological Survey map on a desktop or laptop at such a scale that I can easily read it with or without glasses where I would need a magnifying glass to read the same information on the original paper copy.


Thanks again,

Jerry


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