# LGB SP Black Widow F7 A-B pair



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Thought I would give a quick review of my LGB Southern Pacific "Black Widow" F7 A-B pair. Fit and finish along with drive quality are typical LGB, smooth and quiet, excellent graphics, add on decals for changing the road numbers, both on the sides of the unit and the lighted number glasses on the nose. Power pickup is all 8 drive wheels and 4 skates (2 on each truck/bogie). Lighting has dual beam lower headlight and single beam upper light. For the cost of these models, it would have been nice for LGB to provide a proper Mars/Gyralight circuit to simulate the ocilating lights the dual headlight F units had. Cab has an interrior with a engineer figure and lighting, although in real life you dont ride around with the interior lights on, just like in a car it makes it hard to see out at night. The control slide switch and electrical connections are in the rear door to connect to the B unit. The A unit comes with the electrical power cord that powers the sound boards in the B unit. The B unit is unpowered and has no electrical pickup of its own, being dependant on the A unit for power. But it does pipe sound to both units. This sounds better than just sound from the B unit's speaker, however it lacks the bit of lag that multi EMD lashups have where they drone in and out of sequence. The sound itself is stellar for the year the engine was initaly released. The start up sequence is one of the best that even some of the high end systems miss. For those that have never been around a 1:1 scale EMD 567c prime mover, the hissing at first are the open cylinder cocks to clear any water/condsate from the cylinders prior to start up, not doing so risks a hydro lock and connecting rod/cylinder head damage. The next sound is of the cylinders breathing as the main generator rolls the engine over using the onboard batteries (72-74vdc) to spin the diesel over. Next you hear the diesel fire over on diesel fuel and settle into a nice and easily identified EMD 567 non turbo idle sound. As they come from LGB, the front truck on the A unit sits to far forward to my eyes, however if you turn it over, you can take 2 phillips head screws loose and move the truck rearward a bit, while not exactly right still, it looks much better as can be seen in the side shot of my engine. You do have to slightly modify the coupler pivot so the truck will track right, but it will go around R1 with ease after the mod. I further modified mine with backdated headlights to the as delivered "Golden Glow" single beam, using cut down Mag light brand flashlight reflectors, one of the 2 LGB factory bulbs in the lower and the upper will sport either a micro bulb or LED for a future Mars light circuit. I will probably use a Richmond Controls circuit as nothing else has satisified me that I have looked at. The drives in these I compare to the HO scale models by Kato, imitated but never matched for smoothness and robust quality while not drawing high amps. I find the details less fragile than USA, the plastic feels more flexable where as the USA diesels I have owned felt fragle. I removed the skates from my A unit as I run indoors only right now, and I dont care for the scraping sound they make, it hides the nice sound of the heavy units crossing rail joints. Cheers Mike
[url="


----------



## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 

Thanks for posting the review. I don't run diesels but I like to read about what's available so thanks again. 

Best, 
TJ


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

No problem, here is the pic of the headlight mods. The older F units are a bargain compared to what LGB/Marklin thinks they can sell them for now! Just have to camp out and search online to find the best deals. Both of mine came from Watts Train Station in Zionsville, Indiana. Mike


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

I have a UP A-B-A, great units. They will pull a lot of cars. The only problem I have is the B unit derails.
Needs to be heavyer.

Don


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Plenty of room inside for a little ballast in the B unit, get some of the stick on strip weights for car wheels. Used for the aftermarket alum rims instead of the clip on weights that go on the edge of the rim. I can see where a powered A unit pushing it would buck it off the rail under certain circumstances. I do plan to eventualy get another A unit so I can have the full ABA lashup. Right now I am dire need of a 5006 power supply for my 5007 controler, the little old MRC pack I am using the 12vt output on isnt enough voltage, or amps to run them after adding the sound equipted B unit. Mike


----------



## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Do love the sound of the LGB F7. 


If you need a PS check this site out, I got the metapo 24VDC 4.5 amp version for my LBG 5A controller and a meanwell 24VDC 12amp version for my Massoth DCC controller from this site. On both you can adjust the voltage about 3V +/_. Not sure if they are the same but but probably made in the same place just a different name added. Both of mine have worked fine for about 3 and 5 years respecfully.
http://www.mpja.com/24V-25A-60W-Pow.../16008+PS/

Steve


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 2 LGB B units and I changed out the motor block that did not have the sound stuff to a powered one, and then added weight. Now my ABA has great pulling power as this is now a 5 motor unit, and my AB unit has 3 motors for pulling power. Plus I get more power pickups from the rail!!


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I just finished detailing a USA F3 for Southern Pacific. I see that just like USA ,LGB has not put the step at the top of the nose that they used to hang a ladder on to clean the windshield. Not too hard to make out of brass stock. Since I have my Southern Pacific F unit book here in front of me,S.P. 6282 was a class DF5 F7 delivered to S.P. between December 1949 and February 1950.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Neat info Paul, can you post up some pics of your detailed USA F3's. Also, were SP's F7's delivered with A200 blat horns or the later chime horn? I cant find a decent roof shot to see the style/trumpet arrangement. I think it was a 5 chime. LGB's sound isnt for a blat horn, sounds like a Leslie RS5T 5 chime to my ear. Might try to pick up a 5 chime horn eventualy. The shop I go thur has an Aristo RS3 in the black/silver with orange lettering, basicly a black widow unit that I really want! Along with an ABBA set of Aristo/REA FA's in black widow colors. My next project will be a Black Widow USA GP9 with full SP light package using Ozark castings. Mike


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Mike Toney on 31 Aug 2012 01:15 PM 
Thought I would give a quick review of my LGB Southern Pacific "Black Widow" F7 A-B pair. ...
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/post/aff/17/aft/125798/afq/125798/<a href=
i'm curious about the raw dimensions, length (over buffers), height (above rail) and width?

thanks...gary


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I will see if I can get the measurements later today Gary. Mike


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Ok, here are the dimensions for each and the overall length of the pair (coupled with LGB knuckle couplers). All dimensions are in inches, I dont have a scale ruler. Overall length of the pair, measured at the coupler faces is 48 3/4 inches. The A unit is 24" over the coupler faces, 6 3/4" tall at the base roof line, not including extra height for horns, fans, stacks ect, width of the body is 4 1/2". Thats about as close as I can get with my tape measure and eyeballing the dimensions. Should be pretty close. USA's side frames are better in some aspects over LGB's but thier higher amp draw and fragile details are a turn off for me most of the time. I am using LGB's knuckle couplers on all my equipment other than my caboose, it has Kaydees from the PO. The LGB couplers will mate with the Kaydee's thankfully as the PO hacked off the truck mounts on the caboose and body mounted the couplers. Back to the F units, with the slight mod of moving the front truck rearward, I am pleased with how they look, would have prefered a A200 blat horn for the factory sound instead of a chime horn, but I can live with that. Neither LGB or USA offer a factory Mars light  If you love big American diesels, espicaly F units and love LGB's bullet proof drives, the F7 series is a winner, and from what I can see, made in W Germany and not the plant in China like the Genisis diesels. Mike


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
They were delivered with the single horns.Your B unit should be numbered between 8140-8195 if you want it to be part of the same group. If you really want to detail your unit you will want this book. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Southern-Pa...416a114593
Everything and then some on the F units. There is a picture on page 39 of 6283 with a plow. From what I can tell some of the DF5's were delivered with plows. My F3's are not ready for prime time yet. I still need to install the RC and sound and maybe a little weathering. I also need another A unit. They are out of stock,so if anyone has one to sell,let me know.


----------



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mike,

FWIW: Southern Pacific never had the Alco FA units, Black Widow paint or not! There are a few other offerings for SP from various OEM’s that never were either, the USA F3 Daylight paint never was, less a lone FP7 for the Cotton Belt and Aristo’s Daylight paint heavyweights were none existent for the most part less a few head-end cars painted in Daylight colors to fill an equipment shortage gap. The USAT GP9's are really phase II GP7's; if your a scale guy you'll need to rework the body shell, louvers and light package as you suggested to create an accurate SP Black WIdow GP9. There are lots of variables in modeling the SP geeps I'm presently sorting through info to model the 3000 series which were originally the 5000 series equipment many were rebuilt as GP9E's.

Michael


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
I have two USA GP9's(7's) that I detailed to GP9E's in the 3000 series. I didn't go so far as to redo the louvers so a little modelers licence there, but everything else looks pretty good. Still a couple of my favorite runners and lately I have added a black widow unit. Here is a really old photo. Not the greatest but you get the idea. The pictures are at least 10 year old and in fact were shot when we still lived in Hawaii. I have done a few more things to them since then.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I am not so much a rivet counter that i will start major shell mods, but I would add the SP light package to the USA GP9 to get the "SP" look. I wish Ozark would do a total package with upper red gyralite, dual clear gyra and the mounting plate for both ends. A nice total package with all light castings, 2 single gyras, 2 duel gyras, 2 std headlights and the mounting plates for the GP9 would be a nice package. Now if Aristo would have followed thru with thier SD9 project of a few years ago, I would be set for my wants in SP diesels! I know the FA's never exhisted in BW colors, but it still looks good! Not a huge FA fan anyways. I dont plan to put plows on any of my F units. Mike


----------



## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 31 Aug 2012 03:13 PM 
Mike,

 I have a UP A-B-A, great units. They will pull a lot of cars. The only problem I have is the B unit derails.
Needs to be heavyer.

Don 

*Don/et-al
I had the same problem with the B-unit.*
*I added a 3 pound weight from melted plumbers solder.*
*SWMBO went balistic when she saw me taking 'one of HER pans'.*
*.......the Kitchen is a "NO FLY ZONE" for me for quite some time...*
*the_Other_Ray*


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Paul, unfortunatly LGB only gave decals with the B unit for 8000 and 8200 series road numbers, no 8100 series. I would love to see pics of your GP9's


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
I just posted one with my earlier post. I will try and get some new ones along with the black widow unit.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks paul, did you scratch build your light packages or use castings? Mike


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
Pretty much scratch built on those units. Ozark now has a casting for the warning light. I have used them on quite a few S.P. locos. The lower headlight is the original casting. I use a razor saw to slice it off and reuse it. The gyra light housing is made from half round tubing with some flat plastic in between. I made it about six inches long and then just cutoff peices to length and add details. I use 5mm yelo glo leds for the lights. 
We have kind of got off track from your F7 post. Is that ok with you or should we start another thread?


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
What are the size of the number decals? If I have something that will work I will send you some.


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I personaly dont mind it going off into a SP thread, far more important things in life than to get bent out of shape over that. But we could make another thread on SP diesel modeling. I think Ozark also has the single beam light as well. Mike


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

LGB actualy provides a thin tinfoil decal with a black back ground and the proper silver numbers, so you dont have to try and remove the old numbers from the shell, you just cover them up with the new road number.


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

ive got some too-a-b-b-a 
which i love 



i run a-b or a-b-a 
the use of all 4 creates a very disconceritng out of phase sound which i dont care for 

the units have the best delay and throttle response when using them as the full a-b-a set-i think the added motor load seems to make it perfect 

and 
the b unit WILL operate sound without the F unit being hooked- 

i think the trick to avoiding derailments with the B, like ohter light LGB 50' box cars, is to start and stop slowly 

i havent added wieght, and having seen what serious weight does to the drive gears, id be unlikely to do so 

like the mod to the light 
would consider doing the same to the class markers although the amber isnt bad 

i figured out that this lighting board is identical to that used on the genesis, and which is why the red lights stay on on the genesis-they were orignally teh amber F-7 lights 

when these were originally offered , they were an amazing value i think- 
the new prices are....very high


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

i think too the stock trucks are forward to allow for clearance when the brake cylinders are added to the frame


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The front trucks rear cylinders wont fit in stock truck position or even in the position I have them in. You cant run the rear brake cylinders on R1 and I doubt on R2 track. Kind of reminds me of my old Athearn blue box F units in HO scale. I am working on a solution to that issue still. Kind of busy fixing lawn mowers right now, havent had much train time in the last few days. Mike


----------



## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

LGB Scale is larger than 1/29 but a good looking set of locomotives. I went with USA and did them "as delivered". Only changes made were to improve the headlight and add a top MARS light. Light weathering was done since at the time they were run through the wash rack at the end of a run. Paul Burch did a great job detailing his set.


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Bob Pero on 05 Sep 2012 07:46 AM 
LGB Scale is larger than 1/29 but a good looking set of locomotives. I went with USA and did them "as delivered". Only changes made were to improve the headlight and add a top MARS light. Light weathering was done since at the time they were run through the wash rack at the end of a run. Paul Burch did a great job detailing his set. from the dimensions given earlier, i calculated ~1:26 scale, but here are some more accurate numbers (prototype dimensions) if anyone wants to refine them a bit more.

*Total Length* 50'-08" (and 50'-00" for F7B)
*Wheel Diameter* 40"
*Truck Wheel Base* 9'-00"
*Height to Top Engine Hood* 14'-01.5"
*Height to Top Cab* 15'-00" (N/A for F7B)
*Cab Width* 10'-07" (N/A for F7B)
*Engine Hood Width* 9'-10"
*Center Bolster* 30'-00"
*Center Front Truck to Front Pilot* 2'-09.5" (and 2'-05.5" for F7B)
*Center Rear Truck to Rear Pilot* 2'-09.5" (and 2'-05.5" for F7B)
*Distance between Truck Centers* 39'-00"

cheers...gary


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary, 
Check those truck center to pilot measurements. As modelers we need to remember that the prototype measures total length from coupler pulling face to coupler pulling face. That makes that measurement on our modelers difficult due to the variety and sizes between couplers from different manufacturers.


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

if it wasn't clear, the dimensions i gave above are from the prototype.
i really don't have a model to measure.


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary, 
You have the center of the front truck at 2' 9.5" to front pilot. It would have to be a little more han 10'. Its 10' 8" from the center of the front truck to the coupler pulling face. 
Paul


----------



## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Paul, I got lucky and bought my Geep lights from Miniatures by Eric when he was still making them. Unfortunately he is not making G-Scale products anymore. I did the same as you did except my Geeps are Black Widow. The red top light is a dummy, but the headlight is functional as is the ocsillating headlight above


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob,
I now have one black widow GP9. I picked road number 3611. It was the last S.P. GP9 to still wear black widow paint, all the way to late 1976, even though S.P. adapted the scarlet gray in the late fifties. It also has a plow which you don't see much in old black widow GP9 photos. It also has the square mars warning light instead of the roundish gyra light. 
http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/g..._finan.jpg


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 06 Sep 2012 08:14 AM 
from the dimensions given earlier, i calculated ~1:26 scale, but here are some more accurate numbers (prototype dimensions) if anyone wants to refine them a bit more.

*Total Length* 50'-08" (and 50'-00" for F7B)
*Wheel Diameter* 40"
*Truck Wheel Base* 9'-00"
*Height to Top Engine Hood* 14'-01.5"
*Height to Top Cab* 15'-00" (N/A for F7B)
*Cab Width* 10'-07" (N/A for F7B)
*Engine Hood Width* 9'-10"
*Center Bolster* 30'-00"
*Center Front Truck to Front Pilot* 2'-09.5" (and 2'-05.5" for F7B)
*Center Rear Truck to Rear Pilot* 2'-09.5" (and 2'-05.5" for F7B)
*Distance between Truck Centers* 39'-00"

cheers...gary


Posted By Paul Burch on 06 Sep 2012 12:07 PM 
Gary, 
You have the center of the front truck at 2' 9.5" to front pilot. It would have to be a little more han 10'. Its 10' 8" from the center of the front truck to the coupler pulling face. 
Paul 
i see what you mean about the dimensions in this table. unfortunately i just checked the first few which match another drawing i have.
the last 3-4 stats are definitely in error, though


*Distance between Truck Centers* 30'-00"
*Center Front Truck to Front Pilot* 9'-11" (5'-6" for F7B, both ends)
*Center Rear Truck to Rear Pilot* 8'-6"
*Total Wheel Base* 39'-00"

the stats for the cab dimensions on the A unit include clearance for the horns (height) and cab handrails (width).
i believe these were given for Southern F7's so that dimension might vary slightly for different roads.

thanks for pointing out those errors.
cheers...gary


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks for the accuarte dimensions Gary, and nice pic of the prototype black widow unit. I need to look up the black Alco RS units and see what warning lights they wore. Anybody got an idea how much further back the front truck on the LGB unit needs to be for it to be correct. Just from comparison to HO scale models, comparing the rear brake cylinder to the ladder, it needs to be back towards the fuel tank just a bit more than I moved it. Mike


----------



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
If you haven't discovered this site yet it is a great source for S.P. info. http://espee.railfan.net/espee.html


----------



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul,

Looks like you put a fair amount of work into that pair of Geep’s… Very nice! I’m working on a GP9 low hood model, presently working out the louver dilemma. Later, time permitting I have a gaggle of Geep’s that require modification to SP equipment. I’m going to do several in B/W paint and more in Scarlet/Red.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike,

I looked online for some definitive info on actual scale dimensions, not much luck. I copied minimal info from and actual EMD F3 operating manual. Attached is a scaled drawing of an F3 for reference.

Michael


----------

