# PCC Trolley Notes



## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Good day - I received the Pittsburgh version of the PCC trolley yesterday and spent some time disassembling it and examining its circuitry. I put together some notes and photos that explain how it works on my web page:

Notes on PCC Trolley

This is a very nicely designed unit! 

dave


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## Robert (Jan 2, 2008)

Great information and photos. I'm trying not to look. The last thing I need to do is buy more equipment. The photos suggest a nice clear paint and labelling job. Does it look as good live?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not a great design if you try to put a QSI in there. 

They basically violated the "space under the board" specs that have been developed over the years. 

Dave, with the revo installed, what is the clearance between the jumpers and the underside of the board. Some revo owners have reported shorting between the jumpers and the revo. 

Now, maybe you cannot see this, so the only indication is a short? 

Thanks, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Dave,

Great information and photos.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well then it looks like another screw up if the QSI is sitting to low in the car.







Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Sounds to me as though some judiciously placed electrical tape would take care of any shorting problem. I'm curious just what the problem with the QSI board is, is it that it doesn't physically fit in the space provided?? If so, that certainly doesn't sound like a good condition!! Excuse me, I just saw the picture on Nick's thread about the PCC trolley, and how close the components of the QSI board are to the track. No question, that would be a problem with MY trackwork!!!!

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, it's simple and exactly what I said, the "spec" allows a certain amount of room above and below the board. 

The jumpers sit ABOVE the socket, and hit not only the QSI but the Revo,. 

In fact there was a post on the Aristo forum yesterday where a guy SMOKED his Revo by the jumper pins hitting the Revo board, but now the post is deleted! 

Dave, did you trim the jumper wires? Are yours above the level of the top of the 2 sockets? Did you actually run with the Revo? 

I know you are a man of integrity, so we can trust what you say. 

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, it's simple and exactly what I said, the "spec" allows a certain amount of room above and below the board. 

The jumpers sit ABOVE the socket, and hit not only the QSI but the Revo,. 

In fact there was a post on the Aristo forum yesterday where a guy SMOKED his Revo by the jumper pins hitting the Revo board, but now the post is deleted! 

Dave, did you trim the jumper wires? Are yours above the level of the top of the 2 sockets? Did you actually run with the Revo? 

I know you are a man of integrity, so we can trust what you say. 

Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jan 2011 07:40 AM 
Not a great design if you try to put a QSI in there. 

They basically violated the "space under the board" specs that have been developed over the years. 

Dave, with the revo installed, what is the clearance between the jumpers and the underside of the board. Some revo owners have reported shorting between the jumpers and the revo. 

Now, maybe you cannot see this, so the only indication is a short? 

Thanks, Greg Greg - I added some photos to my web page

Clearance 

that show the clearance and give some options to deal with the pins that might short out.

dave


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Robert on 11 Jan 2011 06:43 AM 
Great information and photos. I'm trying not to look. The last thing I need to do is buy more equipment. The photos suggest a nice clear paint and labelling job. Does it look as good live? 
Robert - the trolley looks super - the finish is first rate as are the details..... I may just start collecting a fleet of them!

dave


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jan 2011 09:12 AM 

Dave, did you trim the jumper wires? Are yours above the level of the top of the 2 sockets? Did you actually run with the Revo? 

I know you are a man of integrity, so we can trust what you say. 

Greg Greg - I have run the trolley with the Revolution and it works very well. The brake lights work, too! I did not trim the pins but bent them over as shown on my web page. I also did the putty trick with the top of the receiver and found that there is still a good bit of clearrance above the heat sink.... probably 1/8" or more.

dave


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*The *bottom line now is how well does the QSI fair in this mix. How much clearance is there and I presume that the cover can not be reinstalled when using the QSI. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Dave! 

The QSI also functions the brake lights fine, as expected, since I agree with your guess on how it works, it really seemed to me to be tied to the motor, which makes it work with every control system. 

Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe another attempt at startin, or forcing a Revolution?????? what you tink???????? Regal


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I think you are correct in that area Regal. Good review but you notice he shy's away from any derogatory statement to save face with AC. You can bet if and when mine arrives I will tell it like it is. Later RJD


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jan 2011 02:56 PM 
Thanks Dave! 

The QSI also functions the brake lights fine, as expected, since I agree with your guess on how it works, it really seemed to me to be tied to the motor, which makes it work with every control system. 

Regards, Greg 
Greg - I believe you or someone else in the forum asked about the trucks - I disassembled mine today and took some photos - have a look:



TRUCKS 

dave


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Nice pictures Dave, thanks for making the effort... Any chance you’d squeeze off a picture of the axle assembly; side view out of the truck?

The trucks look pretty beefy; the gear-stub axle couplings look pretty stout as well.

Dave does your trolley or trucks have the loping noise as did Nick's, looks like something’s amiss with his via the video, perhaps the stub axle-gear couplings are not are permitting the drivers to roll true. Might be the drivers are not concentric with the axle couplings or perhaps the drivers are out of round, albeit anything in this regard would be silly into days world of CNC and injection molding...

Michael


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 12 Jan 2011 11:59 AM 

Nice pictures Dave, thanks for making the effort... Any chance you’d squeeze off a picture of the axle assembly; side view out of the truck?

The trucks look pretty beefy; the gear-stub axle couplings look pretty stout as well.

Dave does your trolley or trucks have the loping noise as did Nick's, looks like something’s amiss with his via the video, perhaps the stub axle-gear couplings are not are permitting the drivers to roll true. Might be the drivers are not concentric with the axle couplings or perhaps the drivers are out of round, albeit anything in this regard would be silly into days world of CNC and injection molding...

Michael

Michael - I placed the requested photos on the web page - I also did two quick videos. One shows the trolley on rollers - a slight wobble is there but it think it is as much the rollers as the wheels. The second video confirms this as I took the axle and rolled it across a flat surface and it does not wobble or show that it is off center or out of round.

Trolley Web Page 

Now to put it back together again! 


dave


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Dave! 

The good slow speed range reported by Nick is explained by the intermediate reduction, that's great, much better than what USAT did on their smaller diesels. 

I see you have the same runout as Nick did, where the rollers lose contact with the wheel. A glance at the constuction of the axles tells the story. 

Nice to see a good power transfer to the wheels, I assume the brass pickup strip is under the outer race of the axle bearings? 

Regards, Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg - you are correct on the brass strips being under the bearings - All of the wheels show good pickup 

dave


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I think to get a real feel if the wheels wobble is to turn the unit up side down and apply power. I have my doubts as to the wheels running true due to the way the axles are held together with a plastic selve. Later RJD


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave; since there is not response to testing it on its back I take it that the wobble is the same as in your video. Later RJD


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 13 Jan 2011 06:07 PM 
Dave; since there is not response to testing it on its back I take it that the wobble is the same as in your video. Later RJD 
You may have missed the "upside-down" video that I put on the web page yestereday..... have a look:

Upside-Down Video

dave


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave thanks for the information. It,s guys like you and the others on this site that help others who have less knowledge about the g scale workings that make this a great site . THANKS TO ALL. I have ordered one of the pcc street cars.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the added video Dave. The wobbling does not look as pronounced. 

I have a question on the wheels, the treatment of them does not look plated, but it's hard to tell. The do indeed look very different from the plating on the Aristo diesels. (good!). They look kind of rough cast on the ends. The treads look smoother, but not CNC machined like the freight wheels and the diesel wheels. 

All I would like to know is if they look plated to you. I know it probably cannot be definitive unless you cut a wheel in half. 

Thanks, Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jan 2011 08:29 AM 
Thanks for the added video Dave. The wobbling does not look as pronounced. 

I have a question on the wheels, the treatment of them does not look plated, but it's hard to tell. The do indeed look very different from the plating on the Aristo diesels. (good!). They look kind of rough cast on the ends. The treads look smoother, but not CNC machined like the freight wheels and the diesel wheels. 

All I would like to know is if they look plated to you. I know it probably cannot be definitive unless you cut a wheel in half. 

Thanks, Greg 


Greg - I would say that they are not plated but I really can't tell. Perhaps they are colored in the same manner as the bluing of a gun barrel - some sort of blackening or dyeing? They do look nice and are an appropriate color when compared with the real PCC trolleys that ran in Pittsburgh.


dave


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have a PCC yet. But there seems to be a lot of discussion on wheel wobble. What is the actual performance of the PCC? Does that little bit of wobble showing in the upside down video really amount to anything when running it the backyard or basement? Is this being over critical? Perhaps it is all true to prototype. Many of the trolleys I remember were not the smoothest riding.


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Parkins on 14 Jan 2011 11:52 AM 
I don't have a PCC yet. But there seems to be a lot of discussion on wheel wobble. What is the actual performance of the PCC? Does that little bit of wobble showing in the upside down video really amount to anything when running it the backyard or basement? Is this being over critical? Perhaps it is all true to prototype. Many of the trolleys I remember were not the smoothest riding. 
Tom - I think that the discussion about wheel wobble is "much ado about nothing" - the trolley runs very well and very smoothly without any sign of off center or wobbly wheels. It's performance at very low speed is particularly commendable. And I agree about the prototypes - I rode the Pittsburgh PCCs many times and observed them bouncing around for decades! 


dave


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave thanks for the up date as I do not usually return to sites if nothing is not mention here that added video was add. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, the wheel wobble in Dave's 6 second video may not be affecting the running, I can accept that. The same appearing wobble in Nick's much longer video causes variation in the speed and the intensity of the PCC headlight, and Aristo is going to repair his. 

Another person on the Aristo forum commented on his loping also (and his post has not been deleted - yet!). 

So we shall see with more samples, and the results of repair. 

But, not to argue, but much ado about nothing? If I had Nick's PCC I would be pretty upset. I have never gotten an Aristo loco that ran like that. 

Watch and listen:



Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Jan 2011 08:22 AM 
Well, the wheel wobble in Dave's 6 second video may not be affecting the running, I can accept that. The same appearing wobble in Nick's much longer video causes variation in the speed and the intensity of the PCC headlight, and Aristo is going to repair his. 

Another person on the Aristo forum commented on his loping also (and his post has not been deleted - yet!). 

So we shall see with more samples, and the results of repair. 

But, not to argue, but much ado about nothing? If I had Nick's PCC I would be pretty upset. I have never gotten an Aristo loco that ran like that. 

Watch and listen:

Greg 
Greg - I was referring to comments that my video showed wobble - if it does wobble it sure doesn't amount to anything when it is running.


Since I don't have any first hand experience with what Nick is experiencing I limit my comments to my own observations.




dave


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Could someone share the specs on the trucks? Wheelbase, wheel diameter, size of block, things like that??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with your assessment, and completely believe what you are saying. I think with 8 wheels, a small amount of wobble would not necessarily be translated to abnormal movement of the body shell, i.e. noticable. 

How is your unit on sound/noise? Nick's and the other gentleman's have a pronounced loping grinding noise. On both of these units, the noise and loping has not diminished. 

Do you have a way to record sound with your video? It would be nice to hear one that did not have this characteristic. (by the way, it did not diminish with 2 days of breaking in unfortunately) 

Regards, Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ohioriverrailway on 15 Jan 2011 08:35 AM 
Could someone share the specs on the trucks? Wheelbase, wheel diameter, size of block, things like that?? 
Rick - I added a dimensions section to the web page.
See:

Trolley Dimensions  

Hopefully I hit on the ones you needed!

dave


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Jan 2011 08:38 AM 
I agree with your assessment, and completely believe what you are saying. I think with 8 wheels, a small amount of wobble would not necessarily be translated to abnormal movement of the body shell, i.e. noticable. 

How is your unit on sound/noise? Nick's and the other gentleman's have a pronounced loping grinding noise. On both of these units, the noise and loping has not diminished. 

Do you have a way to record sound with your video? It would be nice to hear one that did not have this characteristic. (by the way, it did not diminish with 2 days of breaking in unfortunately) 

Regards, Greg 
Greg - the only noise I get is a whining from the gearbox and the click-clack from the rain joints - no loping or grinding noises that I can hear - I added a short video to the web page - a bit out of focus but it should do.

It is the last of the Videos 

dave


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If you look closely at Nicks video as the wheel wobbles it does not always stay in contact with the roller. Real pronounced at the end of the video. Sounds like a lot of motor noise in your video also Dave. Saw one heck of a wobble when it entered the first curve. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Dave, gives hope that this is not a problem with all the PCC cars. I'm hoping for the best, and time will tell, but good to see it's not all of them. 

It rocked quite a bit coming around the curve, do you think that's just the transition into the curve, or did you have a bump there? 

Regards, Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Jan 2011 01:08 PM 
Thanks Dave, gives hope that this is not a problem with all the PCC cars. I'm hoping for the best, and time will tell, but good to see it's not all of them. 

It rocked quite a bit coming around the curve, do you think that's just the transition into the curve, or did you have a bump there? 

Regards, Greg 
Greg - I would attribute to the track that I threw on the floor for testing - it is a mixture of old LGB and new & old Aristo - it also does not show the rocking on the 2nd curve.

dave


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, noticed that, why I asked, thanks. Did not think it was the car. 

Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The loping than Nick observed is more likely due to speed match issues between the trucks. Older Aristo locos will do the same thing when the trucks do not start or run at the same speed. 

PCC cars did indeed have a softer suspension that other trolly cars. They could react badly to some trackwork. PE had to pull them from the line from downtown LA to Santa Monica as they bounced quite badly on that line. The cars were reassigned instead of PE fixing the track.


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Not quite certain which of the forums to post this in!

The model of the Pittsburgh car is pretty close. The link should take you to Pennsylvania Trolley Museum and car 1138. You'll note the anti-climbers don't go al the way across the front (or rear) of the car and that the "moons" on the front aren't half-circles as are on the model. The colors to seem to be spot-on however. I guess none of the Aristo cars have side destination signs?


http://www.pa-trolley.org/Roster/Im...20Lead.jpg


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I have ordered a trolley and was excited to get it but now after reading all of the post i,am wondering if i have made a mistate. Any comments pro or con.


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete: I've got the same feelings. I really wanted a set of bricks for a scratch build project, but now I'm not so sure. Noise is not much of a problem as I do run outside, but the low-speed performance and wobbly wheels have me turned off at this point.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

We recived our pcc trolley and my big concern was how it would run on r1 curves. We put down some track in the house and the trolley ran a-ok on the r1 curve track. One question what does pcc stand for.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 19 Jan 2011 08:24 AM 
We recived our pcc trolley and my big concern was how it would run on r1 curves. We put down some track in the house and the trolley ran a-ok on the r1 curve track. One question what does pcc stand for. Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCC_trolley

The *PCC* name comes from the design committee formed in 1929 representing the *Presidents* of various electric street railways. The *Electric Railway Presidents’ Conference Committee*, or *ERPCC*, was tasked with producing a new type of streetcar that would help fend off competition from buses and automobiles.[_citation needed_] The committee conducted extensive research, prepared a detailed research program, built and tested components, made necessary modifications, and produced a high-performance design that was commonly used in the following decades.[_citation needed_] The cars were popular because of their distinctive streamlined design and smooth acceleration and braking, sometimes quoted[_by whom?_] as soft ride. The design patents were held by a business called the Transit Research Corporation, who licensed features to various streetcar manufacturers.[_citation needed_]


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry thanks presidents conference committee =pcc. You don,t know till you ask.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pete on 19 Jan 2011 09:13 AM 
Jerry thanks presidents conference committee =pcc. You don,t know till you ask. 

Hi Pete,

I did not know either until I had previously ran a Bing (Microsoft's Google) search looking for any history on the Chicago CTA Green Hornets (PCC Trolleys). I had found my answers on Wikipedia so I simply returned there to get the quote for you.

The big benefit of these forums is access to others (across the world) who are willing to share their knowledge with us. When I got into this hobby I knew absolutely nothing about railroads etc. and it was people like George Shreyer (the source of much if not most of my information for many years) who were there before me to answer my questions.

For me the greatest attraction to this hobby was that I knew so little about railroads (less about streetcars and trolleys) so everything I thought of or tried was a totally new learning experience. I was a salesman until I retired 1-1-2000 so I am accustomed to asking a lot of questions and I try to provide the sort of detailed answers I would have liked to receive to my own questions.

Your inquisitive mind shows that you have what it takes to become one of the next generation of experts. For every question you ask there are probably many other "lurkers" who have been wondering the very same thing but were hesitant to step forward and ask it.

Welcome aboard and enjoy your trip. 

Jerry


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