# Total Wet Behind the Ears Green Horn Needs Advice



## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

Hello,

Am wondering if I can get some guidance on how to start my project. This will be my first attempt at anything besides a very small train set I had as a kid. I have a 22,000 sq ft retail store and about 20,000 of it is showroom. I would love nothing more than to see a G sized train runing around the inside of it. The walls are sheetrock and this would be mounted about 9 ft up. The run would be about 540' in total. 

We have a plan in place of how to mount the base for this including a safety cable to catch it if it were to leave the tracks. I am wondering where to get the track for a project like this as well as an other pointers on what to get, what to avoid, how to power this much track, etc. I would hope it could be operative most of the time we are open so would have a lot of use. 

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Bill


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK 

Everyone will have their ideas, so here is my suggestions. 

Go with Stainless Steel track. You will need to clean it a lot less than brass. 

Yes it cost more, but your time has got to be valuable and you don't want to be cleaning track. 

Next, don't use any switches or cross over if possible as these are derailments in the making. 

Plan to run power feeds at least every 100 feet. 

I suggest using 8 foot diameter curves at a minimum. 

10 or 12 foot would be even better if you want to run passenger cars. 

If you want sound, make sure you can turn it off. 8-12 hours of hearing the train going round and round can be iritating to some. 

Stay with plastic wheels on the cars as the steel wheels will make a lot of noise inside a building. 

Don't go cheap when it comes to locomotive power. 

A Bachmann Big Hauler isn't going to last very long. 

I'll let someone with more knowledge suggest a power supply 

Robby @ RLD has a speacial on SS track right now.

http://rldhobbies.com/art12190-1.aspx


Have fun 

Randy


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Bill

Randy provided very god advice on setting up the suspended layout. 

Since you will be building a suspended layout a standard trestle is not a viable option but you might want to consider adding some visual interest by adding a through-type bridge. 

Bridge-Master sells some very nice bridges that you could add to your layout.

Here is their website

http://www.bridge-masters.com/


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy:

While plastic wheels are quieter, I wonder if the plastic will wear down rubbing against the harder steel rails. There was a discussion a while back about black dust falling down from the overhead. 


One way to reduce the wear would be to turn the engine and cars and run in the opposite direction every week or so. Most of the wear will be on the outside wheels. Turning the train around will move the wear to the wheels on the other side of the trucks. Most of the wear will be on the outside wheels as the train goes around any curves. The larger the radius of the curves, the less wear there will be.


Chuck


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Dont use plastic wheels you will regret it, i know i did.
Johnn


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

John:

Could you expand a little on your statement about plastic wheels. 

Were you running overhead?

What kind of track and radius curves were you using?

What went wrong with your plastic wheels?

We could all benefit from your answers, not just beginners.

Chuck


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

In my experience: 
plastic wheels are quieter, and you can run longer trains up a grade because the weight is less 

But they don't track as well--I get more derailments with plastic. On my outdoor layout, everything runs better with metal wheels. 
People say that plastic wheels leave a black residue on the track--I never experienced that., but lots of people say it's true


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Metal wheels lower the center of gravity making tip overs less likely. 

Mike:

I have never been convinced that the black dust isn't very fine brass particles that are worn off the rail by the metal wheels on the engine. I have never had any problems with plastic, but I have converted to metal in all of my American style cars because they roll better and derail less. I haven't converted my plastic LGB European spoked wheels to metal, mostly because I don't run them very much any more and the expense.


I do know that if you put your Christmas starter set down on a light colored carpet, you will be in trouble when you take it down with the tree.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Black dust is normally carbon from arcing between wheels and rails on track powered layouts. 

Brass particles will not be black, and yes people have had continuous operation layouts where there was noticeable wear on the rails and indeed nice sparkly brass dust.. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

Where is that carbon coming from? Are you reducing the CO2 in the air to carbon in the spark? You have Nickle plated wheels running on brass track. I don't see where the carbon comes from.

Very finely ground pyrite (iron sulfide, fools gold etc.) is black. Many metals when dust sized appear black.

Chuck


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want overhead track, then here is my advice:

Look in the *April Garden Railways magazine on page 103* and check out the *Loco Boose Hobbies* add. I have never used their suspended rail system but it looks like it would be just what you want.

It is probably expensive but it looks like it would be reliable and trouble free.

John


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Layouts that operate continously have some problems that most layouts don't experience much of normally, 
track and wheel wear probably being the major one... Soldered brass track would be adequate for the 
layout Ur describing, with the widest radius turns U can manage, at least 5 ft, and preferably larger to 
minimize the wear factor... If U really want to go first class, go with NS track, SS is too hard on wheels, 
and would need more feeders... AVOID plastic wheels like the plague, U'll be cleaning track forever, the 
plastic deposits itself on the outside rail of the curves, whereas metal wheel shaving just fall to the roadbed..
For the most trouble-free operation, I'd keep any switches, crossovers, rerailers, etc. to a minumum...
Paul R...


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I have sent you a private message that you might find helpful. Regards, Dennis.


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## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for the assistance that gives me a lot to think about. I am even thinking of possible placing timers so it runs a bit, is off a bit, then back on. Are there any thoughts on which brand of engine will put up with this amount of run time?


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## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

One other thought is instead of it running continual is figuring out how to power it for a lap around by a coin activated switch. We get many many donation requests through the year and was think about the possibility of doing something like this where all the procedes go to a specific donation request that week or month? I used to own a carwash and worked with the coin switches a lot so think I could figure it out. Thoughts???


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want a steam outline locomotive for near continuous running, your choices are pretty much limited to LGB or Hartland. The other brands may work but will require much more intensive maintenance. I have no real experience with diesels, most diesel layouts appear to be either Aristo or USA - I think Greg might be the closest to a expert for those on this board - check his website. I'll also recommend using rail clamps, at least on the outside rail of curves and staggered on the straights - if the cost is too high for all clamps.


You might want to add track cleaning pads to one car if getting up there to clean any oxidized spots will be problematic. And/or wire a couple extra pick up points in the car behind the locomotive. Mr. Murphy's cousin Seamus has decreed that toy trains will stall or derail at the least accessible spot on your layout. 


Coin operated is a neat idea. set it up to make one loop and stop. Shouldn't be hard, and I'm certain somebody here knows how to install reed switches and relays to do that.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Check with someone knowledgeable at Caboose Hobbies in Denver they have an overhead that runs all the time I have ever been in the store! It's been there for years, they can give you some very "hands on" information from experience of they're setup there!! Regal


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## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

Great thanks! I guess one other question is am I barking up the proper tree with G size or should I also consider something else? 

Thanks 

Bill


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Last Question; Right size. 

I grew up with the smaller scales and from my experience, no matter how clean the track, times would appear when I had to bump the table to get them to run. The sheer weight of G mostly eliminates that.... good thing too! As I run outdoors, I could bump the earth all day to no avail! 

Also as an overhead the larger size is more easily seen. At 10' we still see a lot! Whereas looking at my On3 from 10' I see a little less... 

John


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

G-Scale is more impressive to your customers, and or viewers of it than smaller scales!! Regal


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 Jun 2010 08:45 PM 


Brass particles will not be black, 

Regards, Greg 
Greg, All fine metal particles do turn black. Gold does, silver does, brass does... Ever look at the rag you use with Brasso yup it's black, not from dirt or oxidation, but from the metal.

These are smaller than filings which will retain their color. 

John


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## pcentral (Jan 3, 2008)

I grew up with trains running overhead in our family business. We started out with O gauge and had that for many years before converting to large scale. Large scale is the better choice as it will be quieter and more tolerant of dirty track. As for trains, it depends on what kind you want. If you like modern trains then a USA engine would be my suggestion. If you want a steam engine and scale isn't a concern then a LGB mogul would be a rock solid choice. No matter what you run, take the advice and switch the trains direction often to equalize wheel wear(wider radius curves will also help). 

I used to do the maintenance and repairs for a restaurants large scale overhead loop. I can tell you the undersides and insides of those trains were covered in brass colored particles. They had Aristo brass track originally and switched to LGB brass and the brass colored dust went away but I can't guarantee that it wasn't from just new track and not better quality brass. 

It wouldn't work with your coin operated idea but have you considered battery power? It would eliminate track cleaning, a power supply and need for a track cleaning car but you would need to access the train daily. If you want to use track power I would suggest looking at Bridgewerks transformers. 

Steve


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## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

Again thaks for the advise and insight from the points of views and years of trial and error experience!. It certain gives me things to think about and tips on what may work best. Still mapping it out but getting closer!


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

John

Most metas will tarnish or oxidize to some extent excet for gold. The one way to pan for gold is to look for "color" in hte gravel at the bottom of your sluicing pan. If gold tarnished then this technique would not work.

I have 90 year old gold coins in my collection and they are as bright and shiny as the day they were minted.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Brass rail inside, with Trains running often will require little if any cleaning.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Pete Chimney on 10 Jun 2010 08:56 PM 
John

Most metas will tarnish or oxidize to some extent excet for gold. The one way to pan for gold is to look for "color" in hte gravel at the bottom of your sluicing pan. If gold tarnished then this technique would not work.

I have 90 year old gold coins in my collection and they are as bright and shiny as the day they were minted.


Go polish some gold, the very fine particles that come off are black. I polished gold for 20+ years I know what I'm talking about.
Filings will retain the gold color, minute fine particles Do Turn Black.

Rub one of your coins with a jewelers rouge cloth and tell me it doesn't turn black. (the cloth) I dare ya!

It's not tarnish...jeez


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

So what's the black dust?

Does anybody have their "Qualitative Analysis" notes from college chemistry? Should be pretty easy to distinguish carbon from brass.


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

The black dust is the plastic on the wheels wearing off. Plastic wheels gum up track. Metal wheels cut through the crap. 

Several years ago, our train club had a set of layouts running in a storefront at the mall, from Thanksgiving until mid-January, nearly two months, about 8 hours a day. I put a G-scale layout up on the valance, about 25 feet of Aristo track, with bumpers on each end and a couple of Pola buildings. An LGB device reversed the trains and put a delay in before restarting. I tried to come in at least once a day and change the trains out for variety -- A Hartland railbus, an LBG (Lehmann) Porter, and a Hartland Switcher, the last two pulling short train of Hartland cars. 

I found that I had to clean track every couple of days -- black, sticky gunk which coated the track and the engine wheels. I got rid of the plastic wheels on the cars and put on metal ones. Problem solved, permanently. No more black gunk and no more pick-up problems. 

If you check the magazines, you will find similar advice in scales from (at least) HO up to large scale. Particularly under heavy use, the plastic abrades (wears off) on the track, leading to contact problems. 

Personally, I like the click-clack of metal wheels going over rail joints -- try 36 two-axle LBG log trucks in a row -- reminds me of waiting at crossings where I grew up. 

I recommend either a timer or some kind of switch operated lap system. People who run trains 8 hours a day and more talk about the need for constant maintenainnce, replacing brushes and motors, etc, even using robust (and not cheap) engines. Even the best trains are not really designed for this kind of use. Check back issues of Garden Railways. There is little sadder than being told "Yes, we have a train, but it is not working now." 

The timer has the advantage of surprise. When we ran the storefront, attention was usually on the highly detailed, large HO- and N-scale layouts, and an 0-scale Christmas tree set-up. Then the timer would turn over, the overhead G-scale would turn on. and heads would turn, with smiles coming on, as people realized there was something which they had not seen yet. Sometimes little kids would watch, waiting for it to start again. (A 30 or 45 second delay if I remember right.) 

The "feed the kitty and run the train" approach both raises money for charity and lets the kids be hands on. Either way, it is a winner. 

I don't mean to discourage. The issues are manageable. But you might want to research this and be sure you will be able to keep it running. 

Best regards, Mike


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## Bregar (Jun 4, 2010)

Mike thanks for the info....would this timer just go to the power supply or what works best there. I had considered a timer.....on 30 minutes off 30 minutes etc. I will have to see the wiring setup, as I have nothing yet, before I understand if I can use a coin mounted device which would power the train for 4 minutes or whatever like a carwash count down timer. Then if more coins are added it would keep running. Not sure if that would work or not?

Bill


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Bill, 

The LGB device I used was housed in a track-mounted bumper and was wired between the power pack and the track. There is a whole world of possibilities for what you are describing and might well involve components outside the model train store. LBG (and perhaps others) sold "reed" switches, little boxes that would be triggered by the passing of a train-mounted magnet, to blow a whistle, turn on an effect, or turn off the train. This is the easy way to turn off a train after it has made a lap. 

Back when I mostly played with electric trains, I knew a number of "stupid train tricks" for automatic train operations. some more useful than others. You might check the ads in garden Railways for more sophisticated devices. 

For coin operation, you might be able to use one of those banks, where the coin triggers a hand to reach out and snatch it. Again, talk to somebody who plays with this stuff. 

Best, Mike


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I did get black dust (arcing residue) from poor quality metal wheels on my 0-4-0, since parking that loco the black has turned to real dirt.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Indoors I have metal wheels only and I get black dust. My belief is that the black is carbon from wheel arcing from the engine and caboose with lights. 

I clean the brass track every 2 years. 

If you really want reliable operation of an engine on track, you must have a trailing car added with electrical pickups. This makes a huge difference in train operation. 

Metals wheels are useful for creating a much lower center of gravity, thus more stability in wind (read indoors a ceiling fan or heat/air duct). 

I personally would never run plastic wheels. 

PS, those layouts at train shows in HO require users to have metal wheels, less derailments!!! Works for our large trains as well!!


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