# question about USA trains fan driven smoke units



## joseywales (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi im new to this site..wanted to ask you G gage guys some question about G scale fan driven smoke units..Are they driven by AC or DC or both?..I want to put on in my O gage PRR S1 duplex..Want it to put out the smoke.. tired of getting MTH ones that dont last long.and plus MTH quit making the dircet track powered smoke units.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: question and aristo craft fan driven smoke units*

Hmmm.... You have issues with MTH ones burning out? In all the smoke units I have tested, they seem the most rugged. 

But I am not aware they make direct track powered ones... but I don't do O scale. 

I think you should start by reading my page on smoke units... and notice there is a link to a page on just the Aristo one. 

*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>*


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## joseywales (Dec 31, 2012)

*RE: question and aristo craft fan driven smoke units*

thats how id joind saw a thread on the aristocraft smoke units....on that post the guy was wondering if the hookup where AC or DC trackpower.what do your G scale run on?this is the tread your talking about?http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: question and aristo craft fan driven smoke units*

Sorry, got called away... see the link to my site in my previous post


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## joseywales (Dec 31, 2012)

*RE: question and aristo craft fan driven smoke units*

yes i did see that one too..Well I ment USA train smoking units..did see your video on it when you was testing it..


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a lot more to this... 

That unit is driven from a DCC decoder... I'd still use an MTH unit, more smoke, more fluid reservoir. 

This is not an AC vs. DC question... 

Are you looking for a self contained unit that smokes at a constant rate? 

You need to tell me more about what you are doing... 

What scale 
what power 
what control system 
diesel or steam 
constant rate, or variable or puffing.. 

There's some threads here on this, but there's a number of different ways to go, and I'm not going to write a thesis on all aspects of smoke units. 

So, I'll wait for some more information on your application... 

Greg


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## joseywales (Dec 31, 2012)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Dec 2012 05:37 PM 
There's a lot more to this... 

That unit is driven from a DCC decoder... I'd still use an MTH unit, more smoke, more fluid reservoir. 

This is not an AC vs. DC question... 

Are you looking for a self contained unit that smokes at a constant rate? 

You need to tell me more about what you are doing... 

What scale 
what power 
what control system 
diesel or steam 
constant rate, or variable or puffing.. 

There's some threads here on this, but there's a number of different ways to go, and I'm not going to write a thesis on all aspects of smoke units. 

So, I'll wait for some more information on your application... 

Greg 
was out for a bit..looking for a smoke unit like MTH..the proto 1 smoke units run on track power.. the faster the train runs the more smoke it puts out..I wanted another MTH smoke unit but MTH told me they no longer have the proto1 smoke units.. The wife wrecked mine.. had it out on the table and she knocked it off..retested it and the fan ran to fast and stoped..Its not the motor because Id hot jumped it and the fan runs fine..one of the dios or something went out on me..to me the USA trains put out more smoke.. Id moded my MTH by drilling the air intake hole 1 size bigger and put the wick at the bottom of the resevor .. What I did is a Mike Reagen mod,=TAS=works for lionel trains.. he got a video on youtube how to mod a Lionels smoke unit..the reason why MTH puts out more smoke is because it got 2 heaters VS all the other ones are running 1 heater in there units...But the USA trains input and out put holes are bigger=should putout more smoke..thats why I was thinking on using one in my O gage PRR S1 duplex..


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The USA train smoke unit has a board in the engine for controlling the smoke unit and a LM317 regulator ties to the metal weight in most engines I have seen. 

I use a decoder to drive the motor and fan directly and toss the board. great smoke, but very small holding tank for fluid.


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

Proto 2 units need 5 volts to the motor and full voltage to the heaters which are 2 in parellel 
The proto ones have every thing on one board regulators and a circuit, the heater is 2 elements in series which has a ciruit that shorts one element out on low voltage. 

This is for the the o guage units. I would but a voltage regulator for the heaters thou at 12 volts to make them last longer.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

12 Volts overheats the MTH 1:32 Hudson unit I have. Last warning. 

Stock, the USAT and Aristo units don't put out anything close to the MTH "system"... 

If you want a lot of smoke, get the MTH, run the fan at 5v regulated, and try 9 volts to the heater. 

Last advice 

Greg


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

That might be with the hudson ... I know O guage units has up to 20 volts to the heaters... so it really depends on which unit you get.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Daniel 
witch one are you talking about putting a voltage regulator on the proto 1 or the proto 2 if your talking proto one what would you use? 
thanks dick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's the same for all large scale Proto II units... I'm surprised about the O scale, I thought the Proto II in O scale worked the same way... and Proto III in O scale definitely does. Perhaps you are talking Proto I? 

Back to the original question, is this O gauge loco running MTH or AC or DC? Maybe we have gotten way off into the weeds on this one. 

Greg


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC6WPWuYbyI&feature=youtu.be 

Proto 2 unit with 13 volts to it pulls around 1.5 amps


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, and it won't last long at that voltage I can assure you... much over one amp on almost all similar units is death. 

I could also show you 2 amps smoke... even more smoke... and I can show you a burned up one at 12 volts, did not take too long... 

I really think you are misleading people showing this. 

Shoot a video at 1.5 amps with you holding it in your bare hands for 5 minutes... and I'll send you a check... and band aids and ointment... 


Greg


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

what ever..........


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How about backing up what you are recommending? 

Or don't you care that someone could melt down their loco (soften the plastic around the stack)? 

You keep coming back with recommendations to a BEGINNER that could harm his locos or himself. 

Then when challenged to submit some proof of how 1.5 amps does not overheat the unit you give up? 

I'm asking you to present proof, test results, and just a simple demonstration... a video showing 1.5 amps, you holding the unit in a bare hand, and running 5 minutes. 

I have spent many hours testing many smoke units. My research on amps and volts on USA trains, Aristo, TAS and MTH has yielded very similar results, AND another person who works for a decoder manufacturer got the same results independently. 

So, all I'm doing is asking you to show how that voltage and current will work long term and not overheat the unit and what it is mounted to. 

Otherwise, maybe you should not be giving this information? 


Greg 


p.s. the video shows a MODIFIED Aristo unit, and you can see that the heater and fan are being directly driven, the single 2 pin connector has been removed and the 4 wires are the typical modification when attaching to an MTH loco... An aristo unit has internal electronics, and unmodified runs 5 volts to the fan and about 5-7 volts to the heating element. This is REALLY misleading. There appears to be a battery pack, but you cannot tell what is driving this. By the pitch of the fan motor, it is CLEARLY not running at the stock 5 volts. From my tests, even 9 volts is not continuously sustainable in the all plastic body Aristo unit.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen, let's not let this get "heated." (Sorry, I can't resist the chance for a good pun. But most of the time, I settle for a bad one.) 

I suggest we leave it to the reader to take in what's been put forth and make the their own call. 

Later, 

K


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Jan 2013 04:55 PM 
How about backing up what you are recommending? 
*I have done this in my loco myself for over 4 years now with no problem
*
Or don't you care that someone could melt down their loco (soften the plastic around the stack)? 

You keep coming back with recommendations to a BEGINNER that could harm his locos or himself. 

Then when challenged to submit some proof of how 1.5 amps does not overheat the unit you give up? 

I'm asking you to present proof, test results, and just a simple demonstration... a video showing 1.5 amps, you holding the unit in a bare hand, and running 5 minutes. 

I have spent many hours testing many smoke units. My research on amps and volts on USA trains, Aristo, TAS and MTH has yielded very similar results, AND another person who works for a decoder manufacturer got the same results independently.
*maybe the g scale ones how about O guage?
*
So, all I'm doing is asking you to show how that voltage and current will work long term and not overheat the unit and what it is mounted to. 

*Like I said before I have several engine with this set up for over 4 years now....

*Otherwise, maybe you should not be giving this information? 



Greg 


p.s. the video shows a MODIFIED Aristo unit, and you can see that the heater and fan are being directly driven, the single 2 pin connector has been removed and the 4 wires are the typical modification when attaching to an MTH loco... An aristo unit has internal electronics, and unmodified runs 5 volts to the fan and about 5-7 volts to the heating element. This is REALLY misleading. There appears to be a battery pack, but you cannot tell what is driving this. By the pitch of the fan motor, it is CLEARLY not running at the stock 5 volts. From my tests, even 9 volts is not continuously sustainable in the all plastic body Aristo unit.

*I used the Aristo case to fit it a mallet so thats why you see the aristo case I and the motor does have a 5 volt regulator hooked to* it.
*I am done here cause it seems to me you should have learned from your perants if you do not have nothing nice to say dont do it at all .......

*


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

I just installed an MTH Proto II fan driven smoke unit into an LGB Stainz 0-4-0. How I set it up in my loco was: A full Wave Diode bridge with track power going to the ~AC~ terminals, the + output from the FWDB goes to an LM7805 Voltage Regulator input pin, LM7805 ground pin to - on the FWDB and to the - side of the fan motor, then the +5VDC output pin on the LM7805 goes to the + side of the Fan motor on the smoke unit. I have the track power pickups going directly to the dual heating elements. 

*NOTE1:* All electronics have been removed from the MTH smoke unit boards, they are not needed or used for the above circuit set-up!

*NOTE2:* These *ARE NOT MTH heating elements*, _*they are 18V-24V units*_. 

I have a male/female connector that when unplugged removes the smoke system and turns off the smoke unit heaters and fan motor. 

Now I have wired this same exact circuit into MTH locomotives that their electronics had gone bad, removed the electronics completely and rewired them as forward only loco's and used this method to get smoke from steam and diesel loco's direct from track power in O gauge.

As for the G gauge LGB Stainz, it was modified for the MTH fan driven smoke unit 4-1/2 months ago and has been working perfectly with no issues. 

Although I did have to modify the LGB Stainz boiler{bottom, not really noticeable where I had to cut it out}, and also had to cut down the weight inside the loco to make everything fit, I also removed the stock smoke stack{which is also the smoke unit: failed} and replaced it with a full metal stack a machinists friend made for me a long time back {2002}. 

The stock stack could have worked, but I wanted a different style stack. Haven't replaced the heating elements yet and this loco is run almost daily for 4-5 hours in the morning and another 4-5 hours in the evening and is still going strong today as of this posting. 

I do have videos of the newest modification, using the MTH smoke unit working very well, just haven't got any of them posted yet{hopefully soon}. 

I had tried various mods using a modified LGB Stainz smoke stack, but I just couldn't get the results or effect I wanted, so I finally opted to cut, modify and add a fan driven smoke unit and circuitry to make it all work in the LGB Stainz 0-4-0 steamer on my newest, revamped Garden layout, still a work in progress since I moved my railroad from its original location.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like you have worked things out well. The only thing is that you have not regulated or controlled the heater, but clearly you are not running trains at 24v all the time, so everything works. 

I would myself think about finding a regulated supply and heater combination that works at slower speeds, but if you get the performance you want, it's a simple solution.

I had a tough time buying MTH units, which I prefer, but the USAT ones are good, except I wish the reservoir was bigger.

Greg


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## Cataptrra (Mar 16, 2015)

Greg, even though the heaters are 18v min- 24V max, they smoke pretty decent even at the lower speeds. However, I am seriously considering going to either 5V smoke heaters and using a second LM7805 or 12V heaters with a LM7812 tied to them for even slower speed smoke output. 

For now, it's been working very nicely for about 6 months with the heaters tied directly to the track pickups, prior to this mod I was changing out heating elements at least once, sometimes 3 times a month.

So this is working great and the smoke output is excellent, even though they are higher voltage elements.

BTW: I also use a fiberglass matting {get at the local Wal-Mart for less than $6} for the wicking. Been using this stuff for years and a package will make replacement smoke wicking for many years. Started using this stuff back in 1997 {back then it was less than $4 a bag}. 

Just cut it to size of the fluid chamber, roll it up and soak it with fluid. Using this stuff, I can add a lot more fluid and get run times of 45 minutes, occasionally I do get up to over an hour before needing to refill as this wicking can hold more fluid than the stock smoke unit wicking.

BTW2: I scavenged these MTH fan driven units from old, broken O gauge loco's that just wouldn't run any longer, but the smoke units were still good. Like you, kind of hard to find MTH units. Haven't tried any of the USA Trains fan driven units yet. Used to use the Aristo-Craft SD45 fan driven units, kind of gave up on them though. MTH units seemed a lot easier to mount{and replace if needed} than the Aristo units I experimented with{and didn't hold up!}.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

You can get the wicks/fans/elements for the MTH smoke units from Ray Manley.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's the entire unit that is hard to find. Nice stuff, hard to get.

Greg


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