# Growth segment of the hobby - just the facts please



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Some background perhaps. Check out www.Rapidotrains.com and find brand new, extremely accurate HO/N products that are exclusive to the North American market, more exactly, the Canadian market at 1/10th the size, and they sell out before they're shipped. The news that USA Trains is going to offer a modern auto carrier was hailed as a very positive addition to the large scale fleet. It's fair to ask then, are these companies catering to a fixed clientele who simply want to upgrade and/or collect or are there actually new fans out there who will be attracted by new products?


Lets see if there are enough of us modelling, or at one time did model, in other scales to offer up some unbiased facts related to growth.

Is the large scale segment (1/29th scale and there abouts - no favourates) really the only growth segment of the model railway industry? I have seen/heard various sources suggest that the hobby is stagnant over all simply because of competitive interests but the large scale numbers are actually growing. The theory being that younger people with cash want radio controlled helicopters and the older, train oriented crowd wants stuff with real gravity.

What are the numbers? Are there any numbers?

Just wondering.

Dave


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm, I know a LHS manager that has been in the business for years (getting ready to retire actually) and has said G is dying out in interest and sales compared to HO and O 3 rail and is actually predicting LS's demise! 

Others cite On30 as the big growth in the hobby.... 

As for real numbers or a scientific poll, I doubt such a thing exists? 

All I know is the Canadian stuff in recent years is top notch, including some small purchases here in HO. Atlas are doing some CDM loco models too in HO (GP40 I think?). Some nice modelling coming from our neighbors to the north for sure.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave

Although almost any subject can be found in almost any scale, there are common scales for such miniatures which remain constant today... The most popular scales for each subject are (in order of popularity): 


[*]Cars (1:24, 1:25, 1:32) [*]Railroads (1:87/1:76, 1:160, 1:220, plus ridable "backyard railroads", 1:8 and smaller.) [*]Planes (1:48, 1:72, 1:32) [*]Armor (1:35, 1:72: 1:48) [*]Soldiers (1:32, 1:35, 1:48, 1:6) [/list] 
Here is a perspective (without numbers) that might point to the limitation of any numbers:
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/1134


Evidently there are many research reports out there that would offer the statistics that would answer your query.

http://www.marketresearch.com/search/results.asp?&qtype=2&bquery=Hobby&datepub=24&xs=r


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

That's a real surprise about the On30 stuff. Hard to imagine people who don't even remember, or even read about, NG stuff, being a big new market. Something to say about the O 3rd rail though. I saw my first example of that on a big layout a week ago and while the passenger cars and some freight cars looked out of proper proportion the Royal Hudson looked absolutely excellent belching out synchronized smoke far better than Aristo and the rest. 
Still, there has to be market information out there or manufactures wouldn't be producing new items - and staying in business. And why would it be secret? What your doing and when your doing it? Yes? How many people are your customer base? Not a secret.


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I think any manufacturer who is successful at what they do has to have some hard data or very keen instincts. USA Trains has consistently brought out new items in more road names than any other mfg. and stock more at ANY point in time than any other mfg. So they either have bottomless pockets or they are very good at what they do, maybe both. Most of our LS mfg's request feedback from it's customers which they in turn use to guide them in their future production choices. I'm sure that's not all they rely on though. That being said, if USAT is bringing out new modern stuff then there must be demand for it or they are willing to take the risk, lay out the dough and create the demand and wait for it. There must be something they see. Maybe USAT despite it's lack of fancy on board electronics is an innovator in pushing this hobby forward more than we know. Aristo does it's thing with internal electronics and fancy control systems, USAT prefers to push loco's and rolling stock, the kind of stuff we ALL like best, whether it's running on rails or displayed on a shelf.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh there's info out there! Getting to it is the hard part. The hobby shop owner that felt that the LS hobby was dying probably was extrapolating from his personal experiences. Whether that reflects the hobby as a whole is up for debate. Our segment of the hobby was the fastest growing due to the fact that it had a lot further to grow than N or HO! As it matures there will be a drop off in the rate of growth. There is also the resale factor to take into account. The major manufacturers have been producing products for almost two decades now and there is a lot of stuff available on ebay and other classifieds. 

One of the problems our hobby faces is the fact that size means $$$$! Our hobby is expensive! At least it is in comparison to N or HO scale layouts. Add to the fact that On30 and On3 have found a receptive following allowing for narrow gauge modelling in O scale at about 1/4 the expense and our niche of the hobby then has an even smaller piece of the pie! Does this mean that our hobby is dying? No. Is it still growing? That's the question isn't it! I think it still is but at a much slower rate than 10 years ago. The hobby is evolving and becoming more sophisticated but it still offers much for the newcomer.


----------



## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember a hobby shop in New Hampshire with some really cantankerous old fellow who told me that LGB stood for "Lovingly Going Broke" and predicted there'd be no more large scale trains after the next couple of years. That was in 1995, and while now both the hobby shop and LGB are gone, and I suspect so is the old fellow, the hobby is still very much here, and some of the best things in it have happened since. 

Matthew (OV)


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Back in 1987 when I was fresh out of college and working part time for a local small town hobby shop and personally pushing RC cars the model railroading hobby was small in our town. We carried some trains but mailorder was the rule of the day. We stocked some supplies and paints but overall most folks didn't even special order thru us. Af ew years down the road and I'm now working a living in the Buffalo NY area. One Friday night while stuck in traffic I got off the thruway and found Niagara Hobby. They were looking for help and I needed some extra income. So I started working there part time. That lasted well over 10 years. I learned a LOT about the hobby business while working there. There are "trade" magazines but I thought that what was in them was a LOT of "spin". I kept up on all the magazines because I had access to them. While workign there I sold myself on Large Scale trains. We had an operating layout that included all the popular scales of the time. N HO O-27 and O and of course G. I found it easy to sell G. O & O-27 sold itself on the Lionel name alone. Then the prices on the G scale stuff started upward while the others did not raise as quickly. While Niagara Hobby was a HUGE store they could no longer afford to dedicate the amount of room to sellign Large scale trains. They are now (as of a visit there a few weeks ago) down to a single show case and a small section of starter sets and a few boxes of brass track. The original owner has passed away and the management that understood the industry has left. The new owner (the son of the old owner) is turning it into more of a high end toy store versus a hobby shop. When I started buying large scale trains it was to run a train around the Christmas tree that would not get lost in the presents. I knew at some point I'd like to set something up outdoors but I could wait to do that. 
Since that time the On3 craze has started, Lionel has left the country totally and among the hobby lawsuits (in many scales) retailers have abandoned the brands they once felt loyal to. The digital revolution in the smaller scales has taken a firm hold and there is no turning back. LGB has met it's demise a few times now. Aristo comtinues it's fight and USAT keeps producing more. Bachman plays the games taunting us with anticipation and failures. A few smaller companies keep producing trains as well and as best they can. MTH produces some vvery lionel like trains as well. High end beautifully produced locomotives with literally all the bells and whistles and what to my eye seem to be very toy like rolling stock for the money in an almost unique to them scale. 

So what are the stats? They are out there. There are stores that are not carrying trains at all anymore except at Christmas time. There are some hobby industry magazines that I'm sure are keeping track but with the state of the economy this is new and faster territory than we've been in and they may not be truly keeping up? In the end each LHS owner needs to determine his (or her) tolerance for the products and the market they serve. If they feel that USAT new products will seel in their area they will order some BUT if they do not then they will not. If we all decide to oder thru our favorite retailer from one of the big order houses then they will get the orders and the run will sell out fast and be limited. Lionel used to do that with the high end scale stuff or collectible stuff. They only made so much and if it wasn't pre-ordered then woe to the man that waited to decide. That poses a problem for those of us who want to know that it will run riht and be serviceable afterwards. Bachman's serice after the sale stinks as does Aristo's with a lack of available parts. USAT does alright BUT the pricing can be horrendous at times. I do not buy my trians on collectability. There are collectors out there though but I think that is a smaller segment anymore? Thus the smaller market share. What do you think?

Chas


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Chas,

That was a pretty comprehensive post from an informed perspective. I'd like to add a view from my twig on the tree.

LS is staggeringly expensive to SS types. Old folks who have the time to actually buy 'n build find their 401K's gutted, their house worth less than the mortgage, pension fund a fraction of what they'd thought it would be, and hear the constant howling that "SS is going broke!" It's offputting, when looking at nonessentials.

Every online train seller site I've tried to peruse is set up so it seems every other keystroke generates an 'Item in cart' note. I want prices, I can't get 'firm' prices. It's far worse than dealing for a new car ever thought about being. Or, I have to join a club to spend my money at some of them, something that simply isn't gonna happen, with me. Been down that road a couple of times.

If I go searching for parts, simple math reveals that I can buy a 'real' piece cheaper than I can kitbash, provided I use only OTC parts. Provided I can find any, which isn't easy.

Does the 'fast growth' of On3/30 have something to do witih initial entry-level costs?

Is there room for a scale & gauge somewhere between O and G gauges? I have no idea what that would be, in terms of actual gauge and scale. But I suspect it might be just enough cheaper to become successful.

Call it X gage. Bigger than O, smaller than G. The reason I settled on F scale is because of my eyesight. But for a price, I could buy a pair of magnifiers.

Most MRR's aren't builders to any great extent. Can we take that as a given? I have no numbers. Thus, a smaller starter set should sell more cheaply. Add-ons should be cheaper.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,
Back in the mid 80's my high school teachers and college instructors were telling the kids to count on the fact that SSI would NOT exist by the time we needed it. So far that prediciton is coming true. Basically the SSI is one big Ponzi scheme. I've survived one company going bankrupt. Got no retirement from that and got very little invested now for my future. Watched my grandparents burn through what they had saved for years to keep them "comfortable" ina nursing home for months so that they could go on SSI and medicaid for years more in those "facilities". I am painfully aware of how little SS covers the fun parts of retirement. My mother has retired now and moved in with us for several reasons. Money & Health being some of them.
I think the market has shifted. More technology. Less scratch building in general as people who work have less time for it. Me i'm patient. I'll get there and if I do not I enjoyed the time spent planning and accumulating my trains. I've always planned to be outdoors. For me the smaller scales do not hold the appeal for me. Trains in the garden is my appeal and my approach. thus that part of teh amrket is stagnant. Raising prices on things I need has made teh market stagnant for me. Accesories like track that have tripled in price over the last 3 years? I can wait a while longer thanks but for many others it's killed ANY hope of starting and pushed them to smaller scales or out completely. 

Chas


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting topic Dave. 

I saw the Rapido stuff at our local train show and was very impressed...they are a good example of what can happen when a manufacturer brings out something people have wanted for a long time, like their CN Turbotrain. That may draw in some new people and also build on existing. I'll tell you, if Rapido came along in LS it might just be enough for me to change from RhB to CN...but they'd need some comfort cab locos with sergeant stripes to do it! 

Once in a while in LS someone will bring out a product that will really capture the imagination and start the ball rolling...the LGB crocodile when it first came out might be an example of that...there are lots of others too. 
If the current crop of manufacturers can manage to think out of the box instead of just trying to figure out yet one more huge loco that uses their three axle motor blocks then they might just survive. 

But I think you have to look at the growth years in HO...why was it so strong for so many years? I think one of the reasons may have been the amount of scratchbuilding--that really engages you and the pride and challenge keeps you in the hobby. So if we want to draw in the young computer generation, maybe we need to focus less on ready-to-run, and focus more on challenging kits to engage them...look at how Lego stays popular year after year....their kits just keep on selling. So if the kits have some of the things they like--electronics etc., and can be personalized in some way, are fun and challenging to build, then maybe that will keep them interested. It would also help keep the price down and make local production more feasible. 

Keith


----------



## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets not let facts get in the way of a pointless discussion. 

-Brian


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the reported 'fast' growth of On30 has 5 parts. 1. There wasn't much commercially available until recently. 2. price, bigger trains almost as cheap as HO.... 3. 'cuteness' factor - NEVER underestimate that when grandma is shopping! 4. It's being marketed to work with Lemax/Dept 56 houses (without using up nearly as much real-estate as 0-27!) 5. ties back to 4 somewhat - LARGE availability and selection of 'go with' accessories from other hobby sectors. 

THEN there is LS, where you have, what? 1. 5-6 different, more or less incompatible, niches WITHIN a niche, all competing for the same hobby dollar..... 2. HUGE upfront costs just for decent track..... 3. HUGE space requirements even for a 'small' layout (remember, even R-1 does NOT fit on the good old 4x8!).... 4. The current trend towards BIG expensive specialty locos -- because that's what the vocal minority has clamored for -- while reliable inexpensive 'starter' pieces are generally panned and nit-picked to death on the hobby boards as a 'waste of money', and those that ARE available are rather... limited, and a compromise (lets see since LGB is no more, you get crappy track with one, no tender on a loco that needs one with another, or an odd diesel dinky in another...) plus costing, on average, at LEAST 3 times as much as the above mentioned 0n30.... 5. With the exception of 1/24, 1/25, or 1/32 diecast and 1/24 dollhouse/architect stuff, what else is out there from 'other' sectors? 

That is the current 'reality' gents. So what can 'we' change?


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian,

NICE!! But come on, these speculative threads where our opinions and perceptions based on other threads and comments we've read are the perfect fodder for a full blown discussion!! All we need is someone from Aristo, USA, MTH, Hartland, Bachmann, or Marklin to jump in here with some truth and all our fun is gone! 

Dave,

I think it is a well known fact that USA is part of Charles Ro supply, the largest Lionel dealer in the world (according to them). As such, they do not have to worry about things like making money on items they produce in a timely manner. (I would put MTH in that same category as well) Lionel and Ro work together, case in point, their most recent steam engine, the 0-6-0T docksider. It is a 1/29 version of Lionel's 1/48. Essentially, I see USAT as being supported more by the O gauge sales than by large scale. Because of that relationship, perhaps that is why we see the el cheapo Lionel large scale offerings, instead of actually scaled up versions of the Polar Express and the Hogwarts Express. I would be very tempted by that Hogwarts Express set in 1/29 had Lionel moved in that direction. The Scientific Toys version- not so much. 

I am not sure that an 89' autorack is something that most folks want or could run. But, it is not my problem. I don't have to buy them. It might attract some people to this hobby, but I think the biggest problem currently with this scale is the lack of a good starter set at a reasonable price. If it was me and my money, I would be putting it behind a reasonably priced starter set with a good looking train. I'd like to think that Hartland with their 4-4-0 would be poised perfectly to fill that void. A key selling feature for them: made in the USA. 

With LGB out of the picture, what starter sets would you give a loved one? Last year, I had a cousin ask me for recommendations and I ended up selling him one of my LGB moguls, some freight cars, and an oval of track because there just isn't anything out there right now that holds up. I don't know anyone that started with either a USA or Aristo starter set. It is kind of surprising that USA's sets don't do better, considering the NW-2 or 44-tonner locos are in them. But, when I look at what O gauge and HO offer right out of the box, it is really no wonder that large scale continues to struggle along. Lionel and MTH both offer sets with sound and control in the locomotives. HO seems to offer DCC in their sets as well. I also think that more people have the space for a 4 x 8 train table than a huge outdoor layout. That is due in large part to the high demand for O gauge and HO gauge. (the TCA show in York seems to have 75% O gauge, 10% HO, 10% N & S, 4.5% standard gauge, and maybe .5% large scale. Maybe it was less than that. Those that had large scale were Nicholas Smith and Trainworld. I think that is the real indicator. 

I get people (300 last year and about 500 the year before) who come to what I consider to be a modest sized garden railroad every Fall. Most are blown away by the sheer size of the trains and the layot. Compared with Marty's or Jen's or even the Winter Valley, mine is spartan and small. But for most people, they've only seen these trains around Christmas trees in 4' diameter circles or at botanical gardens. It seems that the lack of a good starter set and the current cost for track are the two things keeping large scale from true growth. Silly things that most 'modelers' scoff at, like Eggliners and Thomas the Tank Engine might be what saves large scale from itself.


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By altterrain on 06/23/2009 10:24 AM
Lets not let facts get in the way of a pointless discussion. 

-Brian





*Hmmmmmmmmm got up on the wrong side of the bed today AAAAAAAAAA.*


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

"Pointless?" It's _never _pointless! It may not be relevant, logical, interesting or civil but it's never pointless! So what's the point? Well, entertainment for the one's posting for starters....


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Chas wrote: "I can wait a while longer thanks but for many others it's killed ANY hope of starting and pushed them to smaller scales or out completely."

Chas, Of the several good points you made, the one about the newer generation not having the time to actually do much 'bashing, and the one quoted above are best.

I don't pretend to have any answers to the generational shift. It's happened, it's done, now we deal with it. I do know that Lionel today is nothing close to the Lionel (1948) that I had. Probably wouldn't be affordable if it were. But people still buy Lionel like mad, I'm given to understand. Second, by reading my old ('74-'75) issues of NRA Bulletin, back then O scale was going out the window in favor of HO. Then I learned a few months ago from a dealer on this board that O-narrow is a red-hot seller. Still O Scale, back with us in a different gauge, narrow, that allows for less space. (I think!) Go figure.

I wanted to go outdoors, but developed health issues. So I went inside. I want to scratchbuild because I have a background in industry that leans in that direction.

Either LS will adapt to the market like O scale did, or it will fade into some level of obscurity. I doubt it will ever disappear. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd guess it'll become like the 'new' Standard Gauge stuff: pricey but relatively invisible.

Les


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06/23/2009 10:31 AM
I think the reported 'fast' growth of On30 has 5 parts. 1. There wasn't much commercially available until recently. 2. price, bigger trains almost as cheap as HO.... 3. 'cuteness' factor - NEVER underestimate that when grandma is shopping! 4. It's being marketed to work with Lemax/Dept 56 houses (without using up nearly as much real-estate as 0-27!) 5. ties back to 4 somewhat - LARGE availability and selection of 'go with' accessories from other hobby sectors. 



///Mik;

///You raise a lot of good points, the 'go with' factor concerning accessories from other hobby sectors. Volume & multiple sourcing helps with pricing. Compatibility is a huge consideration. As is a wider selection of offerings.

THEN there is LS, where you have, what? 1. 5-6 different, more or less incompatible, niches WITHIN a niche, all competing for the same hobby dollar..... 2. HUGE upfront costs just for decent track..... 3. HUGE space requirements even for a 'small' layout (remember, even R-1 does NOT fit on the good old 4x8!)....

/// Excellent points that are not obvious to the new hobbyist who enters with the "Christmas tree layout". Trenchant concerning compatibility within the niche.

4. The current trend towards BIG expensive specialty locos -- because that's what the vocal minority has clamored for --

/// I finally got to see that for myself.


while reliable inexpensive 'starter' pieces are generally panned and nit-picked to death on the hobby boards as a 'waste of money',

/// Uh-huh. But I only belong to this one. I failed to see the connection, howsumever, until the 'Kormsen' episode.

and those that ARE available are rather... limited, and a compromise (lets see since LGB is no more, you get crappy track with one, no tender on a loco that needs one with another, or an odd diesel dinky in another...) plus costing, on average, at LEAST 3 times as much as the above mentioned 0n30.... 5. With the exception of 1/24, 1/25, or 1/32 diecast and 1/24 dollhouse/architect stuff, what else is out there from 'other' sectors? 

That is the current 'reality' gents. So what can 'we' change?


/// "We" can't change a damned thing, Mik. As 'we' in the modest to low end of the hobby. 'We' are below the salt, so to speak, at the banquet table. For my part, I'm dis-inclined to try. As you said above, the 'vocal minority' is heard via the manufacturer's cash register and special members with agendas. Or they shout down disagreeable opinions, there again I've found you're correct. I wonder what the volume sales of the 'new' Standard Gauge you mentioned in a different thread is, compared to common HO or Lionel sales? Or the hot O-ng this dealer told me about? You alluded to the fact that it (the new standard ga tinplate) was expensive, and I'd bet it is. I didn't even know it still existed until I got into LS.

/// You know what I'd go into, if they made it? Prewar 027 tinplate. I once owned a slew of it, and was going that direction on my layout when the prices got so good I unloaded 'em all. As you said, "It (tinplate) pretends to be nothing more than what it is." (Loose quote.)

/// You and Vic and a couple of others are doing about all that can be done, in MNSHO. Showing short-of-money but creative guys how something can be made from essentially nothing. (No negative intended). I hope to weigh in one of these days with a 'build' of my own. For my part, all I can offer is the help I post on the 'Tools' forum, for guys who're trying to get started in that direction.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 06/23/2009 10:59 AM
Brian,

NICE!! But come on, these speculative threads where our opinions and perceptions based on other threads and comments we've read are the perfect fodder for a full blown discussion!! All we need is someone from Aristo, USA, MTH, Hartland, Bachmann, or Marklin to jump in here with some truth and all our fun is gone! 


Dave,

I think it is a well known fact that USA is part of Charles Ro supply, the largest Lionel dealer in the world (according to them). As such, they do not have to worry about things like making money on items they produce in a timely manner. (I would put MTH in that same category as well) Lionel and Ro work together, case in point, their most recent steam engine, the 0-6-0T docksider. It is a 1/29 version of Lionel's 1/48. Essentially, I see USAT as being supported more by the O gauge sales than by large scale. Because of that relationship, perhaps that is why we see the el cheapo Lionel large scale offerings, instead of actually scaled up versions of the Polar Express and the Hogwarts Express. I would be very tempted by that Hogwarts Express set in 1/29 had Lionel moved in that direction. The Scientific Toys version- not so much.

///Mark 

I cannot see a problem with an 'el cheapo' offering (always supposing the price is somewhere near received quality). Correct me where I'm in error: a cheap offering is, well, offered. Okay. Buy one, and you've got the really hard to reproduce part, the shell, wheels and underframe. Why not upgrade the motors, valve gear, detailing--whatever seems amiss to you, on your own time?

... If it was me and my money, I would be putting it behind a reasonably priced starter set with a good looking train. I'd like to think that Hartland with their 4-4-0 would be poised perfectly to fill that void. A key selling feature for them: made in the USA.

/// I've been wondering that aloud for months. Seems to me HLW is in a great position to make a big inroad in the hobby. 

With LGB out of the picture, what starter sets would you give a loved one? 

/// I would advise anyone but an enemy to avoid LS altogether.

... It seems that the lack of a good starter set and the current cost for track are the two things keeping large scale from true growth. Silly things that most 'modelers' scoff at, like Eggliners and Thomas the Tank Engine might be what saves large scale from itself.

/// Bingo.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 06/23/2009 12:20 PM
"Pointless?" It's _never _pointless! It may not be relevant, logical, interesting or civil but it's never pointless! So what's the point? Well, entertainment for the one's posting for starters.... 








Not to mention the smiles brought to others by an apt response.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06/23/2009 10:31 AM
I think the reported 'fast' growth of On30 has 5 parts. 
1. There wasn't much commercially available until recently. 
2. price, bigger trains almost as cheap as HO.... 
3. 'cuteness' factor - NEVER underestimate that when grandma is shopping! 
4. It's being marketed to work with Lemax/Dept 56 houses (without using up nearly as much real-estate as 0-27!) 
5. ties back to 4 somewhat - LARGE availability and selection of 'go with' accessories from other hobby sectors. 

THEN there is LS, where you have, what? 
1. 5-6 different, more or less incompatible, niches WITHIN a niche, all competing for the same hobby dollar..... 
2. HUGE upfront costs just for decent track..... 
3. HUGE space requirements even for a 'small' layout (remember, even R-1 does NOT fit on the good old 4x8!).... 
4. The current trend towards BIG expensive specialty locos -- because that's what the vocal minority has clamored for -- 
while reliable inexpensive 'starter' pieces are generally panned and nit-picked to death on the hobby boards as a 'waste of money', and those that ARE available are rather... limited, and a compromise (lets see since LGB is no more, you get crappy track with one, no tender on a loco that needs one with another, or an odd diesel dinky in another...) plus costing, on average, at LEAST 3 times as much as the above mentioned 0n30.... 
5. With the exception of 1/24, 1/25, or 1/32 diecast and 1/24 dollhouse/architect stuff, what else is out there from 'other' sectors? 

That is the current 'reality' gents. So what can 'we' change?


Mik I couldnt have said it better.

I think 2 factors are currently having huge repercussions in the hobby, Mik touches on one, track prices are just bananas! Given the price gouging over the last 2 years coupled with the new required MAP prices (which are actually alot closer to real price than alot would like to admit), I recently ordered another 20" mini-circle of Aristo track and the price, from a well known discounter was still fairly expensive for what you get, I paid alot less when I bought the first circle when they first came out, yet I find the current MSRP per Aristos website was almost twice the high price I paid. I think high prices for basics like track is leaving a bad taste in alot of potential modelers mouths. I bought alot of track before the prices went up but if I had to start over today I too would seriously be considering On30. I still might go that route if I ever have another indoor layout space again, especially if its too small for my G. I'm going thru that right now trying to squeeze something for my larger stuff into a movable mini-layout.

The other factor is the demise of LGB, I have come to the beleif that LGB had a much bigger influence on the hobby than alot of us would ever begrudge. Durable trains that would alway run out of the box and run on some very tight curves, had ALOT of appeal for beginners who may not have wanted to dive into the yard sive 40' x 60' layout, but were still intrigued by having a durable train that kids and pets couldnt easily damage roaming thru the Gladiolas. Now theres effectively no real general point of entry manufacturer. Each manufacturer in effect now represents a different "camp" or definite mindset on whats the "right way"the hobbiest should go, not much different than in the smaller scales but it does tend to nichify the hobby. LGB tended to have a very broad appeal crossing many different interests, with them gone I think alot of modelers are getting intimidated by the "camp" mentalities represented by the various different groups out there.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Vic wrote, "if I had to start over today I too would seriously be considering On30. I still might go that route if I ever have another indoor layout space again, especially if its too small for my G. "

Vic, I am weighing that option myself, since I don't have a foot of track down, just a 'big' investment in LS junk.

How short a radius can one expect on On30?

"Now theres effectively no real general point of entry manufacturer."

What about HLW?

[your points were taken out of order.]

I've looked at some O narrow, but the prices seemed as stiff as LS. What? Looking at the wrong site? To me, anything using HO track is suspect, because of an unfortunate error I made before I retired.

I posted upstream about the plausibility of some gauge/scale between O and G. No one has answered so far. Since you're competent in those areas, and since you've sorta specialized in answering my dumb questions since day one, what's your opinion of that notion?

I'm more than half-inclined, after this last difference of opinions between the haves and the have-nots, to chuck it all and start over in O gauge, O narrow, whatever, or drop all the way back to the goal line and start over with junk Lionel 027 tinplate pulled by modern Lionel 3-rail motors. As a machinist, I have the tools & skills needed to fabricate tinplate, and I believe I can make it happen and get away from this incessant b.s. of not being able to put an opinion on the board, or engage in a thread, w/o generating rude and/or ignorant comments. Not at me, personally. Those are easy to ignore: most of 'em are paying my SS. So I wish 'em every financial success.


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

To further muddy the waters... what I was getting at with my Lionel large scale comment was that for $140, you get a 100% plastic train. I didn't see the value in the set, other than it had a Lionel name on it. Maybe for $40-$50, it would have been tempting for kitbashing fodder...


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 06/23/2009 4:09 PM
Les,

To further muddy the waters... what I was getting at with my Lionel large scale comment was that for $140, you get a 100% plastic train. I didn't see the value in the set, other than it had a Lionel name on it. Maybe for $40-$50, it would have been tempting for kitbashing fodder...










Mark,

To roil the waters more (keeping the simile going) I believe I misunderstood your point, which was that Lionel is a hot seller. I'm under the impression that Lionel 3 rail is still going strong, in terms of sales. Am I correct? 

Am I correct in thinking that Lionel sells a two-rail system?

Also, I think I'm misunderstanding "... you get a 100% plastic train." I have a bunch of B'mann, and all of it is plastic, save of course the axles, etc. Thus, what is different?


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

I just don't see that cost is a factor in large scale purchases. Yes, track is a crazy price and it will ultimately slow the growth of the hobby to the detriment of the manufacturers that make the track - and trains. 

My railway was built over a period of about ten years and I budget about $100.00 a month. Far less than I was paying for golf and light years away from the support I gave to my boat. I also live in a truly beautiful part of the world, all seasons, so I make a choice not to travel much. If I don't spend my 'allotment' I put it aside and build on it. As a result I pretty much have everything I want apart from a CNR type 2-6-0 which I will never see as long as Aristo keeps pumping out those heavy New England-ish locomotives.

Another reason I find 1/29th scale very affordable is that I'm not a collector. I have a friend in Vernon who models in N scale. He has a 9 x 12 room for his layout plus 80+ engines and 600 cars - at last count. What expense? A friend and member of the local HO club has 60 engines and at last count around 300 cars. How costly is his hobby? I get by with 10 engines - three too many - and 40 cars. I bought a Micro-trains boxcar for a friend in Oz. Sticker price was $39.00 but I paid less. I bought an Atlas RS10 to paint up and run at the club - DCC and sound - $175.00 at the LHS. They're not giving anything away there.

So the cost is what you make of it. Do you want everything they make or are you selective? 

As a result, when I have visitors I usually recommend they talk to me about starting in G gauge and I'll build a quality selection for them and suggest where to get the best price and service.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Dave,

"Seeing cost" is a nebulous factor: for instance, I laid down $300 for a small Chinese lathe and was very glad to pay it, since it was half of the normal asking price. I would never pay that amount for an LS piece. Go figure. Except with the lathe I can produce things, obviously.

Building a hobby on a budget is a good way to go. I suspect most of us do that. Except for HLW, I would never consider the going price for any new LS product. I refuse to pay the asking price for LS track. I can think of a couple of workarounds.

I originally settled on LS because it was the easiest to see, literally, with the intention of scratchbuilding. Now that I've been around the stuff for a couple of years, and given my impression of the changing dynamics of this board, I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth it. Parts are expensive or unobtainable. Returning something to a manufacturer for repair is unpalatable. (Shipping costs & reportedly poor customer relations that I don't care to risk.) 

I too rarely travel. I recognize the fact that some people would rather buy RTR than build--I've been over on the Steam forum finding out what an entry-level stationary steam engine would cost, and was pleasantly surprised at not only the price, but the comprehensive quality of the answer, including links. I am quite capable of building my own with the tools I have. (Some insist one needs a mill.) But it's more effort than I want to expend, only to find out it's not interesting. But for ~ $70 + shipping, yes, I'd invest that for a new experience, steam. One adds water and a can of Sterno, and it goes. Presumably. With LS, there are camps, the members of which sometimes get overly shrill; DCC, battery, PWM, straight DC. Lightning(?) What's a noob to think? I'm going DC track power: I understand it. It's very affordable. And upgradable.

In essence, one pays to play. At what level of play does the price become objectionable? I've found mine.

Interesting thread.


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, you might check out this group on building a simple live steamer: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DeWintonIdris/


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Les
PM research is definitely a site to visit.

http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=4


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As said you pay to play no matter what scale you choose. So if you choose G that's were one will go . it's a matter of personnel choose and what one wants to spend. later RJD


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 06/23/2009 11:18 AM
Posted By altterrain on 06/23/2009 10:24 AM
Lets not let facts get in the way of a pointless discussion. 

-Brian





*Hmmmmmmmmm got up on the wrong side of the bed today AAAAAAAAAA.*

Nick,

Naah, somebody probably said something that was viewed as negative toward Aristo........


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)




----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 06/23/2009 7:09 PM
Les, you might check out this group on building a simple live steamer: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DeWintonIdris/








Thanks Jerry. I will do that very thing after it gets too hot outside. (Still splitting/stacking firewood.) It's only about 90 at the moment, with 200% humidity. I need to get out while it's still cool.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 06/23/2009 7:55 PM
Les
PM research is definitely a site to visit.

http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=4 







Thanks, Charles. I got that one over one the Live Steam board, definitely gonna go there. Thanks for the link & response.

Les


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 06/23/2009 3:03 PM
How short a radius can one expect on On30?

"Now theres effectively no real general point of entry manufacturer."

What about HLW?

[your points were taken out of order.]

I've looked at some O narrow, but the prices seemed as stiff as LS. What? Looking at the wrong site? To me, anything using HO track is suspect, because of an unfortunate error I made before I retired.

I posted upstream about the plausibility of some gauge/scale between O and G. No one has answered so far. Since you're competent in those areas, and since you've sorta specialized in answering my dumb questions since day one, what's your opinion of that notion?

I'm more than half-inclined, after this last difference of opinions between the haves and the have-nots, to chuck it all and start over in O gauge, O narrow, whatever, or drop all the way back to the goal line and start over with junk Lionel 027 tinplate pulled by modern Lionel 3-rail motors. As a machinist, I have the tools & skills needed to fabricate tinplate, and I believe I can make it happen and get away from this incessant b.s. of not being able to put an opinion on the board, or engage in a thread, w/o generating rude and/or ignorant comments. Not at me, personally. Those are easy to ignore: most of 'em are paying my SS. So I wish 'em every financial success.











Les, I've seen On30 (HO) track bent down to as tight as 6" radius on a couple microlayouts, but you wont get much around that. I think 12" rad is the minimum effective diameter, 18" rad seams to be the most common as its a standard size in HO

HLW doesnt really have any starter sets, besides they are very hard to find outside of mailorder, I've only ever found a good stock of HLW at only one LHS and that was SanVal before they closed. LGB was everywhere, they had a very large presence that HLW just doesnt have.

as for between G and O scales? its already there, to me its 1/32. or Gauge 1, sure its still on 45mm track but if you look at an F-7 in O model and an F-7 in the larger 1/29-1/27 LGB/Aristo and put a 1/32 MTH model in between, its right about 1/2 way between the O and the supersized LGB. The basic problem is the start up costs for establishing a new in-between scale would be so tremendous in an already scale saturated market, no one would do it. O outdoors is another option that alot of modelers here havent been too keen to consider but there are those who do it running 2 rail DC on UV stable track. its just to me that most O stuff makes G look dirt cheap.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 06/23/2009 8:02 PM
As said you pay to play no matter what scale you choose. So if you choose G that's were one will go . it's a matter of personnel choose and what one wants to spend. later RJD


_Edited after post:_ 
RJD, something glitched and my reply got lost. Too bad, it was a fantastic one.









To narrow it down, there are hidden facts about LS that a noob doesn't find out about until after he's jumped in. Compatibility between brands. Poor customer relations. The huge jump in track prices. I'm no marketer, but it seems if I was making and selling trains, I'd let the track go at a loss and make it up on the trains. But our High Class business skool guys seem to think: "Hey, they gotta have track, or they ain't running any trains, _so let's jam it to 'em!!!_ We can be rich quicker and quit this crap of sittin' around, tellin' other people what to do."

Just my take.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Cool, Mik. Really nice.


_Edited after post:_ 
That pic sorta is my mental image of this thread.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06/24/2009 8:16 AM
Posted By Les on 06/23/2009 3:03 PM
How short a radius can one expect on On30?


I posted upstream about the plausibility of some gauge/scale between O and G. No one has answered so far. Since you're competent in those areas, and since you've sorta specialized in answering my dumb questions since day one, what's your opinion of that notion?




Les, I've seen On30 (HO) track bent down to as tight as 6" radius on a couple microlayouts, but you wont get much around that. I think 12" rad is the minimum effective diameter, 18" rad seams to be the most common as its a standard size in HO

/// 12" min rad effective dia? Thanks.

HLW doesnt really have any starter sets, besides they are very hard to find outside of mailorder, I've only ever found a good stock of HLW at only one LHS and that was SanVal before they closed. LGB was everywhere, they had a very large presence that HLW just doesnt have.

/// I didn't know that. Thought every manufacturer had a starter set. 

as for between G and O scales? its already there, to me its 1/32. or Gauge 1, sure its still on 45mm track but if you look at an F-7 in O model and an F-7 in the larger 1/29-1/27 LGB/Aristo and put a 1/32 MTH model in between, its right about 1/2 way between the O and the supersized LGB. The basic problem is the start up costs for establishing a new in-between scale would be so tremendous in an already scale saturated market, no one would do it.


/// Good point. Howsumever, isn't that the essential necessity, finding a niche in a saturated market and exploiting it? And the one drawback to G1 is the 45mm track, not only the 'effective minimum radii' (I like that term, gonna steal it) involved, but the prices asked for it. Brass scrap prices have fallen, so other than stocked supply lag, why haven't prices?

its just to me that most O stuff makes G look dirt cheap.


/// Well, that's the same impression I got, just scanning prices, that O ng is just about on par with LS, pricewise. But either I misunderstand (very likely) or the comments regarding 'cheaper O scale NG' are in error (also very likely).

/// Whatever the case may be, thanks for your input.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Les keep in mind that On30 min radius of 12" was using Bachmann 0-4-0 Porters and 4 wheel stock, if you want to use the 2-6-0 or a Shay, then I've read that 15" radius is the absolute min for that engine, thats why 18" rad is the most common basic denominator in On30.

HLW has an army train starter set but its really a kids play set. Bachmann's On30 stuff to me IS affordable, its the Lionel MTH and finescale stuff thats in the stratosphere.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 06/24/2009 8:24 AM
Cool, Mik. Really nice. 

For some reason, it just seemed to fit...


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06/24/2009 8:49 AM
Les keep in mind that On30 min radius of 12" was using Bachmann 0-4-0 Porters and 4 wheel stock, if you want to use the 2-6-0 or a Shay, then I've read that 15" radius is the absolute min for that engine, thats why 18" rad is the most common basic denominator in On30.

HLW has an army train starter set but its really a kids play set. Bachmann's On30 stuff to me IS affordable, its the Lionel MTH and finescale stuff thats in the stratosphere.









Yes, I was figuring on short engines and rolling stock, which I happen to like, anyway. And critters. Since I discovered them--well, that's going to be my first rolling build. There's a chain-driven on in an old NGSLG, Don Kehote. Something like that.

Someday I'd like to build a small Shay. 13T? But that's after I get some feel for what it's actually like to run.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 06/24/2009 9:00 AM
Posted By Les on 06/24/2009 8:24 AM
Cool, Mik. Really nice. 

For some reason, it just seemed to fit... 









Just a dam' minute, here!







I came back in from stacking wood and looked at that pic again. I noticed there's one old bearded coot holding forth vigorously while two younger men listen.

Did I just get a subtle needle job?? Hmm?

Les


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

From my perspective, yes, Lionel and MTH O gauge are good sellers. Locally, there are several train shops who have dropped G in favor of O gauge because it sells. And the comment about the all plastic train includes wheels! The Lionel G battery powered sets are fairly high priced, have incompatible couplers, and the look of them is cheap. The bachmann starter sets are plastic and inexpensive, but tend to have a better look to them. And yes, the price for Large scale is a lot less than O gauge. Even the track in O gauge has gotten very expensive. To the point where it is almost as much as large scale. 

Dave,

I wish aristo would focus on New England steam locomotives. You and I would be getting our large passenger moguls (You'd get a CNR and I'd get a New Haven). Alas, Aristo seems to focus on the B&O, a mid-atlantic and mid western road for it's steam inspirations! 

I think there's a two edged sword to the 'growth' of the hobby. On the one hand, the product available is so wide and varied that stocking one of everything is not practical. But on the other hand, there's no way to predict what someone will buy due to all that variety! Let's put it another way: If you were running a business in the hobby world, what would you stock? How would you entice people to get started with large scale, assuming that starter sets are essentially out of the picture? I'm not trying to be negative. I think that it is probably a case of the majority of the hobby shop folks don't really know much about large scale and probably don't own or operate much of it. I'm still thinking that Thomas and Percy will help to stimulate some interest. 

We have a local garden center that caters to a higher end clientele. They have ponds and all kinds of fish, water plants, regular plants, etc.. It seems to me that it would be a good fit (maybe not perfect) to have some sort of garden train set up to promote and sell trains. For an all the time running display, I don't know what I'd recommend, probably a pair of RS-3s or F3-A-B pulling relatively short trains. I think that is how Art KNapp's train business got started up in BC. Having been to BC, I noticed there are a lot of Art Knapp nurseries around Vancouver, so it is likely a case of having the trains as a side business supported by the main business, plants and landscaping. How many large scale layouts have been built as a result? I have no idea, but it is definetly a 'thinking outside the box' scenerio. 

Mark


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 06/24/2009 11:41 AM



I wish aristo would focus on New England steam locomotives. You and I would be getting our large passenger moguls (You'd get a CNR and I'd get a New Haven). Alas, Aristo seems to focus on the B&O, a mid-atlantic and mid western road for it's steam inspirations! 

Yes of course. My steam geography is a little screwed up but it was B&0 all right. And it seems there were comments relating to exactly that when the -9 was introduced. Someone getting into the hobby probably wouldn't know or care about that and Aristo still gets to cater to a larger population center of train fans. I on the other hand find heavy coal road engines and Penn passenger power as completely foreign as German or Asian locomotives. 

I tried to dress up the Aristo Pacific in my early days; bells, number boards, air tanks, etc but that boiler was just too darn big to be a high stepping, light rail locomotive. Sold it off and haven't run steam since.

I think that it is probably a case of the majority of the hobby shop folks don't really know much about large scale and probably don't own or operate much of it. I'm still thinking that Thomas and Percy will help to stimulate some interest.

No they don't. It's specialty within a specialty. My LHS has a few items. Three or four Aristo cars and an NW2 cow/calf (He won't sell me just the cow - at any price) and some track on consignment that I bought at about $3.00 a foot. The big shops like Art Knapps, about 4 hours drive, and Ultimate Trains south of Calgary have supplied me with just about everything I own and I'm feeling very fortunate to have them.. AK in Surrey is even expending into a lot of accessories now that they wouldn't carry only a few years ago. Kedee stuff and scale figures etc. Great to have and now I buy about $60.00 worth of little things every time I walk in. You know, we're not ALWAYS looking for an engine or an 8 car set of custom painted coaches. AK in Kamloops (pop 150,000 give or take) couldn't keep itself going because they only sold, or tried to sell, the pricy items. A $3900.00 engine? Get serious! 

How many large scale layouts have been built as a result? I have no idea, but it is definetly a 'thinking outside the box' scenerio. 

Our local large scale group were talking to a huge nursery in Kelowna about installing a large loop in track and some buildings on site. We would build and maintain. They were very enthusiastic in the beginning but opted to go in another direction. A tea house and ride-on trains. It's still in their plans but I guess our stuff didn't have the WoW they were looking for.

Dave


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

No doubt you are referring to Davy Cormack, and his almost constant cries for standard USRA locomotives. Too bad, could have kept a segment of the segment interested. 

What I see as interesting about the new 2-8-0 is that it 'could' look like several different roads. Drivers, Boiler, cylinders are similar to 10 Consolidations bought by the Central New England in 1912. I think it will be interesting to see what kind of reception that locomotive gets. I hope it is a huge success, for all of us. 

I have been considering a Pacific for a bash to a New Haven I-4. The New Haven's boiler is a lot bigger, as is the cab, but certain things, like the tender, are much shorter. Ultimately, what we have in large scale is that for modern steam locomotives, we're basically kitbashing. That is a lost art and not many are willing or able to take a saw to a brand new $400 locomotive. 

Interestingly, the CN 2-6-0 locomotive seems to be one of the better preserved classes. I am thinking specifically of #s 86 (Ohio Central), 89 (Strasburg-operating), 91 (Middletown and Hummelstown-operating or close) and there's one more. A smallish locomotive with big drivers perfectly suited for branchline passenger or freight service. One could make a case that because people can see that class operating on at least two tourist railroads, they'd be more likely to purchase a model of one. Who knows...

I guess I should take the time to check out AK's in Surrey next time I go to the office in Richmond.


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Number 91 is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. I think a smaller 2-6-0 like this would be a more popular engine than what Aristo is planning. Maybe it's a weight or space thing. Maybe they just like 'chunky' looking locomotives. Who knows? And 89 seems to have cone through some sort of sex change operation. The old B&W photo clearly shows a young lady and the later ones clearly show something else. Same body I think. 
Anyway, when someone comes out with a replacement for the Bachmann Big Hauler - and it looks and behaves like a small, standard gauge 'recent' vintage machine - I think the LS segment of the hobby will take off. Those light 2-6-0's were everywhere in freight and passenger service and they don't get their proper due.


----------



## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well I can say for certain that the hobby is growing as I have converted 2 people from O-scale and 2 people from HO-scale to G-scale. They loved my USA Trains diesels and Big Boy and that was all it took. The hobby is definately growing but it helps when we are out there showing our stuff off to people of other scales. HO scalers are pretty easy to convert to G-scale because they probably started out on a Tyco set from long ago and just stayed with HO because they haven't had the exposure to G-scale. They also thought the USA-style Aristo-craft track was hot looking as it is very prototypical with tie spacing. Before, they had only seen Euro style and narrow guage track. These days G-scale is not so expensive as I have spent more on some of my N-scale locomotives than I have on my G-scale locomotives. The track still is very expensive but people think it is worth it in the long run. I sure do. 

-Will


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

What's different about Strasburg 89 and M&H 91? 

Here's a great shot of what could be:


http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=212659&nseq=33

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=212055&nseq=37



I would suggest that a USA 1:22.5 outside braced boxcar would look great behind a 1:29 2-6-0 like this.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=210660&nseq=53


Here's the Milk and Honey's 91:


http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=207708&nseq=65

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=207703&nseq=67


http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=204230&nseq=69


Dave, I tend to agree that a smaller mainline locomotive like the above would go along way to bridging the gap between the 0-4-0s and the bohemoths. The AML 0-6-0 is a nice looking engine, and might fit the bill. In a lot of old garden railroad videos, you will see LGB Moguls decorated in PRR, B&O, etc.. pinch hitting as this size locomotive. The key will be getting that center driver to float so that the 4' diameter curve can be overcome. I know I'd be interested in a small 2-6-0 like this, especially since we ride behind SRR 89 fairly regularly in the spring. 



Will, keep up the good work!! I've not been able to convert many here. In fact, a good large scale friend, Russ, has moved back to HO. 

Mark


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

The photos I found have 98 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasburg_Rail_Road

The headlight has been moved up to the top of the smoke box and the number boards removed/changed. Sure doesn't look the same.


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

About 5-6 years ago, a group of fans got together and paid for Strasburg to redo the front end, centered headlight, replace number boards, etc.. That's the way she is running now. I think she looks a lot better in her original garb. 

Mark


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 06/26/2009 10:53 AM
Dave,

About 5-6 years ago, a group of fans got together and paid for Strasburg to redo the front end, centered headlight, replace number boards, etc.. That's the way she is running now. I think she looks a lot better in her original garb. 

Mark

Her identity is gone now. I think that's a shame and there sure ought to be some rules about preservation. I know darn well I couldn't do that to some historic building I may be interested in buying. Oh well.

Dave


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

On topic though. As much as I defer from steam engines they remain the starting point to more hobbyists than do the diesel powered variety. A 'modern' standard gauge short line locomotive is vital to the life of the hobby and I hope that Aristo's contribution is very popular. Despite what I think of the poor candidate. Sorry. I had to say that.









I think most of us here would agree - about the steam part anyway.


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

The one thing I wonder about that consol is if the blind drivers will allow the loco to traverse tighter curves than the bulk of the mainline locomotives available. Doesn't affect me, but there might be some growth potential there...


----------

