# NCE Massoth Consisting Compatibility



## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

I’m having a problem getting a consist to work using the NCE 5A Power Pro command station with ProCab, and Massoth LS and XLS decoders. I have been working with DCC for only about 8 mos, but have installed two Massoth LS decoders and two Massoth XLS decoders into four LGB locos. In my first installation, I noticed the following programming quirk:

1.	Programming the XLS decoder in program track mode: I noticed CV1 would retain the last value programmed. For example if I set CV1=20 then set CV29=6, CV1 will become 6 without me ever accessing it. This was hard to figure out with my initial installation and first (frustrating) volley in DCC. You do a lot of programming over and over and the loco just won’t move because the address is not what you thought. This has been consistent/repeatable on all four LS and XLS decoders I have installed. As a work around, I’ve made CV1 the last entry in Program Track Mode and I’ve been doing all other programming in Program on the Main Mode.
2.	After understanding the CV1 issue, all four loco decoder installations operated correctly.

More recently I have tried consisting a pair of locos (using the consist Setup key on the ProCab) with the following results:

1.	The locos run correctly individually, but in an advanced consist, the consist won’t run. Neither will the lead loco address, which I believe is supposed to be an NCE alias for an advanced consist. Individual loco lights and sound however do work, but I noticed the lights consistently react as if the loco (same effect on both loco’s) is reversed from the throttle settings.
2.	The loco numbers show in the ProCab as “Con”, but the consist number shows as “Loc”.
3.	Browsing Consists in the ProCab shows the correct consist number with the correct loco numbers and directions.
4.	I have tried creating a consist in the command station and then manually programmed each loco to CV19=consist number. This had no effect.
5.	I tried long and short addresses for the locos. This had no effect.
6.	I tried setting the consist number to the lead loco number. This had no effect.
7.	I tried various combinations of the locos which include both LS and XLS decoders. All consistently behaved as described above.
8.	After clearing the consist (ProCab Clear button) from the command station, each loco would individually run again, however, they would continue running at a low speed with the throttle at 0. This effect is repeatable and consistent, and persists even with power cycling and setting CV2=0. 
9.	I had a non-repeatable incident where after killing the consist, the lead loco ran in reverse, even though the throttle was set to forward. And of course it continued to run in reverse at a low speed when the throttle was set to 0.
10.	After clearing a consist, if I manually set CV19=0 in both locos, then the locos resume completely normal operation. Lights are correct with direction, the throttle direction is correct and the locos stop when the throttle is set to 0.

Has anyone tried consisting with an NCE command station and Massoth sound decoders?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When programming a decoder, make sure you turn off all functions and sound.
Failure to do this can give false readings and writes on some decoders, and verify the speed step setting on the command station to match the decoder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've used the NCE system for years with advanced consisting, all my diesel "trains" are consisted. No issues with any modern decoders so far, but I do not own any massoth decoders now.

I would do this is to take 2 locos, reset their decoders, assign new addresses.

Then create the advanced consist. Be SURE to hit enter after you have entered the 2nd loco, not escape... hitting enter on the "third" loco entry closes the consist.

You should be able to control the consist from the consist number or the lead loco number, at least speed and direction.

What consist number did you assign?

your #2, 3 are right.

#4 is telling, it should only respond to that consist number from then on, in terms of speed and direction.

#6 is as expected

I would also reset the memory of the command station, you did not mention that you tried this.

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Thanks for the thoughtful recommendations.
I had earlier talked with NCE tech support on this for about 2 hrs and it was left unresolved. Interesting that resetting the command station never came up.
The consist ran normally after I reset the command station. Directions, lights, sound using the consist and lead loco addresses all ran normally. An odd thing is the throttle operated with the rear loco addressed (I thought it would not), but the consist ran in reverse of the direction key. Is this normal?
I tracked the problem back to the 28/128 speed step option. The consist runs at speed step 28 but will not run at speed step 128. In fact I can toggle the ProCab 28/128 key and the consist will toggle running/not running. Am I missing something obvious here in 128 mode?
When the consist is cleared, the locos will not run in 28 step mode, but in 128 they run but exhibit the original issues of continuing to run when the throttle is 0, etc. After resetting CV19=0, the locos again run normally. Do you normally have to reset CV19 after clearing a consist, or is this still a weird problem of mine?

Thanks again for your comments - made more progress today than in the last 2 weeks.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

28/128 should not have made a difference... I run advanced consists all the time only in 128 mode.

Now I suspect a problem with your decoders... you need to borrow 2 locos that have other decoders.

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Good suggestion to isolate the problem between the NCE command station and Massoth decoders, but unfortunately I don't know anyone locally (San Jose) involved with DCC. If the result points toward the Massoth decoders, it still leaves me with troubleshooting the decoders. Since all 4 exhibit identical behavior, there's an inherent problem and hopefully it is me not understanding something.
Be nice to run into somebody using NCE controller with Massoth decoders. Hard to believe I am the first.

Pat


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Pat:

It sounds to me like you are doing universal consisting not advanced consisting. You are using the NEC central station to create and control the consist. You do not need to do anything to CV19. Set CV19 to zero, create your consist using the pro cab and then run the consist. 
If you want to do advanced consisting, then do not define a consist using the cab. Modify CV19 to a common value across decoders an run your consist using the value in CV 19 as the loco address. You would be able to control the speed and direction of the locomotives in the consist but not the lights or the sounds. Lights and sounds can be controlled via the individual loco addresses.
I would be interested in knowing whether or not toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps has any effect on advanced consisting?

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mohammed,

NCE's Power Pro System Reference Manual defines two types of consists:
1. Old Style - also called brute force or Universal. Characterized by the command station sending commands to multiple loco addresses.
2. Advanced - characterized by the use of a short address stored in CV19 across multiple locos. The command station then sends commands to the single address and all locos with that address stored in CV19 respond.

The ProCab has a menu choice to choose the type of consist.

I actually tried Old Style (Universal) and it worked properly. Unfortunately it had a restriction that another loco outside the consist could not be addressed.

The 28/128 speed step issue I'm seeing is with the Advanced consist per NCE definition, utilizing CV19.

Earlier, one of my many attempts to get this to work was to not create a consist in the ProCab, but instead to set CV19=consist number in two locos. Then from the ProCab I simply addressed that consist number but neither loco responded. This was in 128 step mode, I did not try 28 step.

Strange to note that after over 100 views, no one has come forward to say they have used NCE ProCab with Massoth XL, XLS decoders. Its making me worry that I might be stumbling upon a compatibility issue.

Pat


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

hello Pat:


I am having trouble following you. Can you please answer the following questions as specifically as you can? 

(1) Do the decoders work properly when addressed individually?
(2) Does toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps makes a difference in how they work when addressed individually?
(3) if you were to Modify CV19 to a common value across decoders and then use the pro cab to select the locomotive whose address is the same as the value in CV 19, what do you get when you try to control speed and direction of travel? 
(4) Does toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps makes a difference in what you get?

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mohammed, you are not understanding.

For "old style" the addresses are not changed, but you do not get advanced controls of lights and horn bell.

For advanced consisting, the NCE cab sets the consist address for you. You NEVER have to change the address of any locos "manually" at any time.

I think your comments are because you misunderstand consisting, or your experience with Massoth only is influencing your statements.

I did not explicitly ask Pat if he was using advanced or not because of his comments about CV19, so I was pretty sure he knew what he was doiing.

Turns out he is using advanced consisting for the exact reasons it exists.

Pat, I have found certain decoders did not work perfectly on advanced consisting, but very few. 

For a few software versions, QSI units could not be put in consists if they ran backwards and you had the direction reversed in CV29. Not all decoders are thoroughly tested, and there is indeed less consisting in Europe, so my experience is that it's not always tested thoroughly, and also often their decoders are not tested on Digitrax, NCE, CVP systems.

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Really!!!

There are actually 3 ways to do consisting and I have tested every single one of them using multiple decoders, the Massoth Central station, and the Massoth Navigator. All worked as expected. 

(1) by using the same address for all decoders usually referred to as basic consist, but "old style" will do.

(2) by using a temporary secondary address in the locomotive to group locomotives together without changing the primary address.The temporary address is defined in CV19. The central station treats the consist as a single locomotive. locomotives with the same value is CV 19 are part of the same consist. There is no need to have a defined consist stored in the cab or the central station. This is what is usually referred to as advanced consisting.

(3) by using the central station to create and manage the consist. With this method of consisting, the command station treats consist as a group of individual locomotives. A defined consist is stored in the cab or the central station. This is usually referred to as command station consisting or universal consisting.


As I understand it, NCE's version of advanced consisting differs from what is usually called advanced consisting.

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, there are 3 methods of consisting.

1. is not really consisting, it is done by setting all addresses the same. This is the least capable way of doing it and you have a bunch of locos on the track with all the same address, so you have just removed one of the features of remote control.

2. is called old style, where the command station is informed of the members of the consist, and sends commands to EVERY loco in the consist. This not only has performance issues but lacks the "smarts" for using the decoders to understand lighting and sounds, i.e. all the locos will blow the horn at the same time, not just the lead loco. You CAN make the command station "smarter" but still is not the best way to do it.

3. is advanced consisting, this is where the consist address is in the loco, and the loco realized it is in the consist. it also allows intelligence so only the lead loco has the headlight on, and when you honk the horn, the lead loco only sounds. This is nice because if you are running the consist backwards, the "lead" loco is now on the other end.

Mohammed, your understanding is a little off. 

your "1" is not really called consisting. It's the same as running a bunch of DC locos all on the same track.

your "2" is advanced consisting, CV19 does have the consist address, but it is often helpful to maintain a list of defined consists for many reasons in the command station.

your "3" is old style consisting, or universal consisting.

You really need to read up on DCC before you make statements about NCE on what is "usually called advanced consisting", it is WELL defined, you just don't know or have experience with NCE. The hundreds of clubs that use NCE advanced consisting would say your issue is NOT with the NCE system, but your decoders.

In reality, the European systems seem to have definitions of their own, create extensions, and tweak stuff that should be standard. I only have trouble programming european stuff, mainly because of the antiquated microprocessors in the decoders, or weird requirements like cutting power after programming a CV.

I'm hoping that your statements are NOT a precursor to the problem being with the tried and tested NCE system, well renowned in using advanced consisting, as opposed to the issue being with your beloved Massoth decoders, especially since you are a Massoth dealer, not because I love NCE, but because it is well proven in advanced consisting, and Massoth is NOT.

Well, we will see when/if Pat can try some other decoders. 

Pat, my guess is that your consist memory was messed up, and was doing something crazy, resetting cleared all your consist memory. 

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mohammad -

The consist definitions that I've read from NCE and general posts match exactly what Greg is saying. I'm pretty new at this, so if there are other definitions I'd be interested. That said, here are answers to your specific questions:

(1) Do the decoders work properly when addressed individually?
=> Yes, the decoders have worked perfectly individually in all modes. The only issue I have had is CV1 changing value in program track mode as I described in the original post
(2) Does toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps makes a difference in how they work when addressed individually? 
=> 28 and 128 speed steps work perfectly as individual locos. I can toggle on the fly, everything works. I really don't care for 28 speed mode though so I don't use it much.
(3) if you were to Modify CV19 to a common value across decoders and then use the pro cab to select the locomotive whose address is the same as the value in CV 19, what do you get when you try to control speed and direction of travel? 
=> As I previously indicated, I changed both locos to CV19 without creating a ProCab consist. Neither loco responded to the address I stored in CV19. This was in 128 step mode. 
(4) Does toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps makes a difference in what you get?
=> I did not try 28 step mode in #3 above. However 28/128 mode made a big difference with an NCE defined and ProCab created advanced consist.

Any other thoughts based on this?

Pat


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Greg

Your suggestion to reset the NCE command station worked because it reset the speed step from 128 to 28. Since I really don't use 28 step mode, it never dawned on me to push the button. 
I was able to prove this because I had made a prior record of the command station settings and simply returned the command station to those settings after the reset. The 28/128 setting was the only one which had an effect. Really big effect.
Unfortunately I don't have a non-Massoth decoder or a non-NCE command station to try, so I don't have a good way to isolate the culprit.
Any other thoughts?

Pat


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Pat:*
This is a quote from a post by Greg on this forum on 7/30/2015:

*"*Advanced consisting: *The most advanced method in DCC (and others) is "advanced consisting", this is where the consist information is stored in the receiver/decoders themselves. The same "consist" address is put in each decoder, then they will all respond to this address. This allows very flexible operation and customizing which features apply to which locos in the consist, such as lighting, sound, etc. Also this allows the "normal" direction of a loco to be different when in a consist, so you can have forward and reverse make sense both in the consist, (where a loco might be "backwards" and when a loco is cut from the consist (like cutting off helpers). A big advantage is that only one command for speed and direction changes needs to be sent, rather than the same command sent each time for every locomotive. In a large consist, or when running many locomotives, advanced consisting is the method to keep response to commands fast. 

*Universal consisting: *Sometimes referred to as basic consisting or old style. This is where you tell the "system" what locos are in the consist, and then when you change speed or direction, separate commands for EACH locomotive are sent. The problem here is that you will degrade throttle and system response since you have to send 4 times as many commands for a 4 loco consist for example. Since the consist is only "known" to the controller, most systems don't have the feature control to light the headlight only on the lead engine, only honk the horn there, etc. Also in most systems, if you have a locomotive "backwards" in a consist, then removing it from the consist usually leaves it backwards. 

*Address consisting:*This is not really consisting, but "cloning" the address of locos, basically making them all the same address. This is really a poor way to solve the problem."
_____

Based on these definitions (which are the same mine), NEC consisting in a mixture of advanced consisting (consist address) and universal consisting (where you tell the system what locos are in the consist and the system does the rest). 

To isolate the problem you are having, your need to separate the decoder component from the central station component, hence you need to use CV19 without anything else. 


Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

To anyone interested is learning about consisting, here a link to a very good article: http://tonystrains.com/complete-guide-to-consisting/

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

I think we are all agreed that Advanced consisting is the only consisting method that utilizes CV19, and this is what I'm using. The issue is the consist works perfectly in 28 speed step mode, but fails to respond in 128 speed step mode (lights and sound work however). I think it would be good to focus on this problem as I could sure use a solution. 

Mohammed - I looked at the reference you indicated. It talks about Added Advanced Consist Features and refers to CV's 21 to 24. The eMotion LS and eMotion XLS User Manuals available on-line skip these CV numbers. Is there some added documentation I should know about?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I hope we can find a solution to this soon.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pat, I'm afraid that you may have found a bug in the Massoth decoder code.

Can you work fine in 28 speed step, and then changing to 128 makes it stop? (I apologize if you have already stated this)

I agree, you want to see about support for at least CV21, otherwise your function control will be blocked.

By the way, CV's 21 to 25 are REQUIRED for NMRA compatibility, so if Massoth does not support these, then they are not NMRA compliant. That would be very bad, especially for a system that is costly and is touted as high end.

Pat, let me know what you find, but at this point it seems that Massoth may be the issue.

Regards, Greg

p.s. Mohammed, thank you for posting an old post of mine that completely agrees with what I have been saying. I did not think I would have to take the witness stand, but it is heartening that I seem to be pretty consistent. ;-)


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Pat:

Based on your comments thus far, it seems reasonable to conclude that:

(1) the Massoth decoders worked well, as they should, with your NCE central station in single unit mode.

(2) toggling between 28 and 128 speed steps had not effect on their performance 

(3) the Massoth decoders worked well in advanced consisting using 28 speed-steps 

(4) the Massoth decoders did not respond in advance consisting when you set your Procab for 128 speed steps.

Massoth decoders are capable of 128 speed steps as long as it is done automatically by the central station. The decoders themselves have a 28 internal speed step table.

In single unit mode, when you choose 128 speed steps your central station does the interpolation required for 128 speed steps and sends it down the track to the decoder.

In advanced consisting, the decoders' internal speed step tables control the motion of the locos and the decoders work well in 28 speed steps. 

The decoders do not work as well in advanced consisting with 128 speed steps because they are not receiving the same command for your central station as the one they received in single unit mode, otherwise they would workas they did in single unit mode. You may want to contact NCE and see what they have to say about this difference.

I am willing to bet that many other decoders will respond in the same way.

Greg: focus on the discussion. I am not the subject of this discussion and making me the subject of the discussion serves no purpose. Your opinion should be able stand on it merits.

Mohammed

http://www.massothusa.com


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Just to confirm - yes the consist runs as expected in 28 step mode, but will not run at all in 128 step mode.

Just one more piece of information. I tried creating a consist as Mohammed had suggested by simply setting CV19 and then addressing that value as a loco, but this time in 28 step mode. This ignores the ProCab consist creation. The consist ran normally when the consist number was addressed, even though the ProCab Browse Concept was empty. Changing to 128 step mode, the consist would not run. Toggling 28/128 steps caused the consist toggle run/not run.

Pat


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mohammed

I'm a little confused about what you're saying in terms of the contribution of the command station vs the decoder for 128 step operation, but here is what I have done:

Per the eMotion LS User Manual, Attachment 1: CV29, Bit 1 controls 14/28 speed steps in the decoder. There is a note that [the decoder I assume] has automatic recognition of 128 speed steps. I set Bit 1 to On: 28 Speed Steps. I then use the 28/128 button on the ProCab to toggle the speed steps I have been referring to.

Again I'm a bit confused about what you're saying, but are you implying the eMotion LS or XLS will not work in a consist in 128 step mode?

Pat


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Pat:

There appears to be a difference between what happens when you toggle between 28 and 128 steep step in single unit mode vs advanced consisting mode. I don't know what actually happens when you toggle between 28 and 128 speed steps? 

I do not have an NCE central station but I do have a Massoth, an LGB, and Piko central station and I had no problem operating an advanced consist with anyone of them using a pair of Massoth XLS decoders.

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mohammed, 

Yes, there is a big difference in the effect of speed steps between an individual loco and a consist. You would think though that the LS decoder wouldn't know the difference. It should react the same way. There certainly isn't a problem with the other addresses (CV1, CV 17/18 and CV107/108) in terms of speed steps. Doesn't make sense that CV19 would be different. Hopefully the tech support in Germany will be back to work this week and perhaps shed some light.

I think it is important for you and/or the German tech support to procure an NCE Power Pro for compatibility testing. Duplicating this effect in house by someone with decoder architectural understanding is critical to establishing a solution.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very interesting. All decoders are supposed to automatically interpret 28 vs. 128 mode.

Since in advanced consisting, you are just sending commands to one loco, the NCE cab is doing nothing differently than sending commands to a short address in a single loco.

All the "magic" of setting up the consist address, etc has already been done, and done correctly since you can run the consist at 28 speed steps.

Clearly there is something wrong with the Massoth decoders. By the way what addresses have you tried for the consist address?

Remember that the 28/128 button just changes the format of the speed command, per NMRA specifications.

Do the Massoth decoders switch between 28 and 128 ok when not consisted?

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

I'm using locos with short addresses 2 and 20. I've also tried long addresses 2 and 20. So I picked a consist address of 22, but I have also tried the default of 127 (I think that's the default) and 2. 

When not consisted the Massoth LS and XLS decoders work perfectly at 28 and 128 speed steps.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Pat, as usual I cannot find anything wrong with your setup or reasoning. It really does appear that the decoders are defective, in the sense that they do not operate correctly.

The NCE system is used by hundreds of clubs and the advanced consisting is used very often on club layouts, as longer trains are run.

I rarely operate a single diesel, as I have a 3.4% grade that is about 80 foot in length. 

Never any issues with consisting, and I always use long addresses and always use 128 speed steps.

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm finding this all very interesting, and the link Mohammed posted was a useful education on how consisting is handled the various ways. I've never tried using the CV19 method so I can't comment but one thing I'm wondering about is how up to date the firmware is on Pat's decoders? My suspicion is that the Massoth decoders just aren't enabled for the advanced consisting--or if they are at least not in the way the NCE (and probably other non-Massoth central stations) expects it to be. I've never known anyone to use that method--everyone I know uses the Massoth method (because all the guys running DCC in our club use Massoth) where the locos are selected in the handheld and then treated as a unit. Hopefully Mohammed will get some answers out of Massoth techs directly but this is a useful discussion.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Once an advanced consist is set up, it is controlled just like a single loco with a short address. There is no difference in the commands issued.

Also, all decoders are supposed to automatically understand 28 / 128 switching, there is no extra command to "change modes"...

How do you change between 28 and 128 on a Massoth controller?

by the way, read #5 on this page to understand how it is the decoder's responsibility to interpret and handle 128 speed step commands.

https://sites.google.com/site/markg...decoder-motor-drive/14-28-and-128-speed-steps


Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Reading and re-reading these threads and the links, I'd say The most likely scenario is that there is a bug/omission in the Massoth code that doesnt allow it to recognize the switch from 28 to 128 steps automatically as it should when it's using the advanced consist address. I think this is because the way the regular consisting is used with a Massoth central station is that all locos in the consist are to be set for the same number of speed steps before the consist is set up. This is easily done with the navigator but as Greg says, it shouldn't be necessary since it should do this automatically (When jumping from 28 to 128 that is). So I suspect they never programmed the decoder to look for a change during advanced consisting. This should be an easy firmware fix for them once they are aware of it. Sorry I can't do any testing because my MTSIII only allows me to use 14/28 speed steps and I don't know anyone here with an NCE CS.


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Most of the testing I have been doing is with the eMotion LS decoders. One is FW ver 3.5 and the other is FW ver 2.90. 
The XLS decoders I have also used are FW ver's 2.90 and 2.91.

I found Greg's reference to Mark Gurries article quite illuminating. It explains the anomalous behavior I've run into with CV29 set to 14 speed steps and not realizing NCE did not supporting that mode (recall I'm new at this). The potential relevance to this thread is I see loss of control when clearing an advanced consist in 28 step mode until CV19's are reset to 0. Switching to 128 prior to CV19 reset gives me limited control with the anomalies described in my original post. If the Massoth consist bug/omission was limited to 128 step mode interpretation, there should not be an issue clearing the consist when operating solely in 28 steps.

I have not heard anything from Massoth tech support in Germany as yet. 
I'm getting worried.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with the conclusions of CCR and Pat, it clearly is not an omission or improper command from the NCE system, this has been proven, besides the volumes of evidence of NCE systems being used in advanced consisting.

Very strange since, again, advanced consisting basically uses short addresses for control, so the short address and 128 SS code is in the Massoth decoder, that has also been proven, it just does not work in advanced consist mode.

I have not found another major brand that does not consist correctly in advanced consist mode, but I will now want to check out the other European decoders. Even my $10 on sale MRC decoders (with sound) work on advanced consisting.

Regards, Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

All modern decoders including the Massoth XLS and LS decoders have an internal 28 speed step table that governs how fast an equipped locomotive moves. CV29 allows the user to ignore every other element of this table and get a 14 speed step table that is compatible with older central station.

Modern central stations use the 28 speed step table to extrapolate to 128 speed steps. Extrapolating to 128 steep steps is a function of the central station, not a decoder function. 

Some central stations require the user to press a button to initiate 128 speed step mode (NCE). Other central stations (Massoth) do it automatically, when they recognize that a decoder is capable of 128 speed steps, they automatically switch to 128 speed step mode.

The button used by NCE to toggle between 28 and 128 speed step mode does not communicate directly with the decoders, it communicates directly with the central station. 

In single unit mode, Pat presses the button to initiate 128 speed step mode and everything works. The central station goes in 128 speed step mode and the Massoth decoders respond as expected.

In advanced consist mode both the central station and the decoders work as expect in 28 speed step mode. But the Pat when presses the button to initiate 128 speed step mode *nothing* happens. 

To suggest that this is caused by a defect in the Massoth decoders is far-fetched. We know that the decoders work in 128 speed step mode and we also know that they work in advanced consist mode. 

Since nothing happens when Pat presses the button to initiate 128 speed step mode, it is extremely likely that the problem is the central station. The central is not sending any interpretable command to the decoders, otherwise they would respond as they did in single unit mode.

I have had no problem setting-up advanced consists with Massoth decoders and Massoth, Piko, and LGB central stations.

P.S. Massoth decoders do not support CV 21-24, and they are NMRA compliant ( Here is a link for those of you that want to know what the real NMRA configuration-variable standards are: 

http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.2.2_decoder_cvs_2012.07.pdf

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Most modern decoders do indeed INTERPOLATE (extrapolate is the wrong word) between the high and low (and sometimes the middle) steps to give more than 28 speed steps, and various manufacturers do it differently.

But you are dead wrong about the central station "extrapolating" for 128 speed steps.

You need to read about DCC Mohammed. Nothing happens when you push the 28/128 mode, but the next speed command sent from the command station will be in the 128 speed step format.

Yes, you do NOT have to support advanced consisting to be complient, it is optional. But to support CV19 but not support CV's 21-24 is just, well stupid. This says "we support advanced consisting, but only half way".

Please read more about the 128 speed step command format so you will stop making false statements. The decoders are NOT working correctly.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg:

(1)the oxford definition of extrapolate is "extend a graph, curve or a range of values by inferring unknown values from trends in the known data. 

(2)You invariably accuse anyone who does not agree with your of not knowing what they are taking about even when it is obvious to all that you know nothing about the subject. As I have told previously, focus on the discussion and stop making the discussion about me (cheap shot). Decoders do not extrapolate, central stations do. You definitely need to learn a few things about DCC, look it up.

(3) You need to stop imbibing your own liquid refreshment.


Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Mohammed, and you are not extrapolating, you are interpolating, read the definitions. 

If you extrapolated, you would be going BEYOND the known values, you are NOT, you are going BETWEEN the known values, vmin and vmax, CVs 2 and CV5.

So a command station will INTERPOLATE between CV2 and CV5 to have finer control between them when using 128 speed steps.

But you seem to be EXTRAPOLATING your personal knowledge into false statements when you started talking about the command station sending something when you hit the 28/128 button.

And it seems that you invariably make up stuff that you do not know and present it as fact to people who do not know that you are indeed making stuff up. Your misinformation is extrapolation of what little knowledge about DCC you must possess, since this is simple, fundamental stuff.

It is a disservice to the good people of this forum to be misled.

You really should read up before you state something as fact. Surely you realize you don't know this information that you are making up?

It only takes a few seconds to verify what I said on the web site, or you could take the word of someone who clearly has much more experience with the NCE system than you do.

Your arguments also always stop short of provable facts and descend into name calling. YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO MAKE THE PERSONAL COMMENT, AS IN YOUR POST ABOVE, NOT ME. THIS IS A COMMON TECHNIQUE TO ACCUSE THE OTHER PERSON OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING. YOU TOOK THIS PERSONAL.

Too bad, that further undermines your position.

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Well - at the end of the day my trains still don't work.

I've yet to hear back from the German tech support.

Mohammed - as a major US distributer, you must have some pull with Massoth. Can you tell me if Massoth is planning to help me by doing some compatibility testing as I have suggested, or am I on my own?

Pat


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I was just reading on the JMRI website about consisting and found the following:

"One final note, Advanced Consists operate in 28 speed steps (always). "

So...this could be out of date information but everything I read on the JMRI site confirms the Massoth decoder is acting as it was (at least at one time) designed to operate. Since Greg is able to toggle and operate his consists in 128 step mode tells me that either it is some other form of consisting NCE is using or else the info on the JMRI site is out of date. 

Here is the link:
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/tools/consisttool/ConsistTool.shtml

There is also mention of the need for an NCE specific consist tool so it's possible NCE is doing something "non-standard" to get the ability to do a form of advanced consisting in 128 steps?

Keith


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Keith:


The JMRI statement in perfectly clear: "One final note, *Advanced Consists operate in 28 speed steps (always). *You may need to *make sure your throttle is sending 28 speed steps* to the address to avoid flickering headlights " The Massoth decoders are clearly working as they should, *end of story*. 



Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Pat: 

Your trains are working as they should.

In single unit mode, the Massoth decoders respond as expected in both 28 and 128 speed-step-modes. 

In advanced consisted mode, they work as expected in 28-speed-step mode *only*. 

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

So, possibly the Massoth units are as outdated as the JMRI specs??????
And other MFG made 128 speed steps work???


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Dan:

That train has already left the station!!!! I was wondering when you were going to chime in, and here you are. 

Now, had you read the thread *carefully*, you would have *learned* that (1) the Massoth decoders *are capable* of 128 speed steps, (2) the Massoth central station *switches automatically* to 128-speed step-mode when it detects a capable decoder, (3) Advanced consisting with the Massoth Navigator and the Massoth Central Station is extremely simple to setup and 128 speed step capable,* no toggle button required*. 

So what is going on with the Zimo* state-of-the-art *Central station? Coming soon I hope!!! Can you enlighten us? What, has it been 4 years since you first announced it ?????????????????

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com
hhtp://www.massothusa.com


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mohammed

After all this, thanks for your conclusion that in advanced consist mode, Massoth decoders work as expected in 28-speed-step mode *only*. 
Also keep in mind there are other questions I had encountered, some of which came up during my marathon session with NCE tech support. In particular why the consist does not clear properly as I described in the initial post - even in 28 step mode as I described later. Additionally the change in CV-1 as I had also described was particularly frustrating to NCE tech support and led to the conclusion that I should talk to Massoth. There are other anomalies which I have not yet brought up as I wanted to focus on 128 step advanced consists.

I did hear back from Massoth tech support in Germany yesterday. They are asking basic questions at this point so I did point them to this thread. If they confirm your conclusion and have no near future plans to support 128 step advanced consists, it leaves me in quite a bind. I think I would have little option than to bite the bullet and replace the Massoth decoders with an alternative that supports 128 step adv consists. Perhaps this forum could help me on some potential options.

I very much appreciate the support you've given me over the last few months. I will give the German tech support a little more time - especially to hear Massoth's future strategy, but I fear given all the anomalies I've dealt with, the advanced consist issue is the tip of the iceberg.

Pat


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

hmmm.... so how does the Massoth central station "detect" a 128 step decoder? DCC communication on the main track is not bi-directional, therefore I think this "detection" is more a case of saving the selected speed step setting in the central station's database entry for a given loco. So when you call up that loco again, the speed steps are set accordingly. 

I run NCE gear, I don't think it saves speed steps along with loco address in its "recall" slots. Probably assumes the majority of your locos will be set to 28 or 128 these days, and you won't need to change that often. 

Re the note in JMRI about advanced consists always being 28 steps (otherwise you get flickering lights): such flickering lights are a symptom of a decoder being set to 14 speed steps but being sent 28/128 step command packets (the decoder tries to interpret the extra speed step bits as the light on/off flag). Therefore I suspect that the JMRI note is trying to indicate that you definitely cannot run advanced consists with 14 speed steps.

If you read through the following Digitrax info about consisting, it seems to indicate that you should be able to run advanced consists with 128 steps (with their decoders at least): http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB911/advanced-consisting-with-digitrax/

The NCE system manual also states that the 28/128 toggle button is to select the speed steps for your "active loco/consist". It makes no mention of 128 not working for consists.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

JMRI "NCE Consisting Tool" is simply a tool giving you access to the consist setup information in the central station, instead of having to enter the consist info through the throttle buttons. There's nothing "magic" about it that makes 128 step consisting possible, its just that the NCE communication protocol exposes the functionality to access and set the consist info, whereas some other brands of central station do not make this available so JMRI cannot provide a similar tool for those systems.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

There was a comment a few posts back about the central station extrapolating 128 speed steps. Sorry but that is incorrect (I've seen the post where this was stated in 2009 in another forum). It was refuted further down the conversation. The decoder takes the speed step instruction sent to it (14, 28 or 128 step format) and interpolates the PWM mark/space ratio to drive the motor, using values from the 28 step speed table if that is active or using the simple vMin, vMid, vMax CVs.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello ntp.....:

I made that statement earlier and it may be wrong. I found the following explanation on Model Railroader and it seems to make better sense.

"_The DCC controller (that thing your throttle plugs into), sends out SPEED INSTRUCTIONS to the decoder. It can send out 3 different kinds of speed instructions. One kind is for 14 speed steps, one kind is for 28 speed steps, and one kind is for 128 speed steps. Each kind has its own format, so the decoder knows by the instruction format which kind of speed instruction it is getting.

The decoder has a SPEED TABLE. The speed table contains 28 "spots" corresponding to 28 speed steps. Each spot can be assigned a number between 0 and 255 inclusive. Once each of the 28 spots (speed steps) is filled with a number between 0 and 255, you now have a complete SPEED TABLE. If you were to plot out the speed step (1 to 28) versus the data entered for each step (a value between 0 and 255), you would have the SPEED CURVE. It is simply a connect the dots of speed step versus speed table entry.

How the decoder sets the speed of the motor is: It receives a SPEED INSTRUCTION from the DCC command station. The speed instruction tells the decoder what the SPEED STEP is and whether it is to be interpreted as a 14 step speed instruction, a 28 step speed instruction, or a 128 step speed instruction (by way of what format it is in). If the speed step instruction is of the 28 step kind (this is the simplest case), the decoder looks up the step number in the SPEED TABLE directly (because it has 28 entries, one for each speed step) and there it finds a number between 0 and 255 (that had already been put in the speed table as explained above). It outputs THAT NUMBER (between 0 and 255) to the speed control circuits. The speed control circuits DO NOT CARE what the speed step is, they only care what the number is from the SPEED TABLE (a number between 0 and 255), which happens to correspond to the table entry for that speed step. The circuits that control the motor voltage (ie, speed) are NOT controlled directly by the speed step, but rather by the entry in the speed step table in the "spot" for that speed step.

if a 14 step speed instruction is received, the decoder uses EVERY OTHER "spot" in the speed table to determine what number to send to the speed control circuits. If a 128 step speed instruction is received, the decoder "fills the gaps" between speed table entries by interpolating between the values in the speed table. Between this explanation and my prior attempt_

Mohammed

www.massothusa.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paragraph 3 is partially in error, not all decoders can "tell" what kind of speed instruction it is getting. In the case of 28 vs 128 that is normally true, and all the decoders I have dealt with can do this, but it seems there MAY be some old LGB decoders that may not be capable of this.

Also for paragraph 3, most decoders need to have CV29 set to put them in either 14 SS mode or 28/128 SS mode, i.e. if they are in 14 SS mode, then they cannot accept 28/128 SS commands and vice versa.

So, right off, while the author was somewhat knowledgeable, he was not correct.

On the speed table, it is true that the internal speed table exists, and MOST decoders will interpolate more than 28 SS by using these entries, but as far as I know, they are NOT REQUIRED to do so. It clearly would "work" to just interpolate between CV2 and CV5 (assuming a linear speed table)

Minor things, but if we are going for complete understanding, then crossing the T's and dotting the I's is best.

Greg


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

I've been looking at the Zimo MX695/696 as potential replacements for the Massoth XLS and the MX644/645 as a Massoth LS replacement. From what I can tell, Zimo seems to offer higher current capacity (695/696 vrs XLS), supports CV's 21-24, and has a more robust embedded sound selection - and they're cheaper.

Can someone confirm if Zimo works with NCE command stations for 128 step consists?

Pat


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Pat, I'm struggling to understand why switching to 128 steps on the fly is so important and in fact why you need to use 128 speed steps to begin with. I can't even tell the difference between 28 and 128 on my system, possibly it's because I use a lot of momentum? It's really smooth either way. How much momentum (accel/deceleration) have you got programmed in? Maybe it's something unique to the NCE, I don't know because I'm using LGB, Massoth and Zimo decoders and they all behave the same way--super smooth on 28.

Greg--I understand you have switched from NCE to the new Zimo system--how does Zimo handle consisting? When I tried my locomotive on an older Zimo system once again I could see no difference between 28 and 128 steps in smoothness.

Keith


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Keith - 
Thanks for the reply.
I initially started using 28 steps for individual locos. My layout is quite small so I keep some momentum but minimal to avoid wrecks. The NCE uses a thumbwheel that I found myself constantly over correcting, but not discovering the error until the momentum caught up. When I discovered 128 steps, life got so much easier for me. Now with a consist running at 28 steps and individual locos running at 128, I get a headache. 
I'm sure over a longer period of time I can get used to this, but I'd rather not "bend" to the technology. Instead I prefer to make the technology perform the way I want it to.
At this point if someone confirms operation at 128, I will switch decoders. However, as time marches on - I may get used to the whole thing and become complacent. 

Pat


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Pat,
Given that little thumb wheel I can understand your frustration. With the big dial on the Massoth it's not an issue, but at least you can always save the decoders and use them in something else. 

Keith


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## patp01 (Aug 21, 2015)

Well, its been a while but I finally swapped out the Massoth LS decoders for Zimo MX645's with ADAPLU adapters. The consist now works correctly at 128 speed step mode. I found Zimo much less intuitive to program than Massoth but I also found Zimo offered a number of benefits:

1. Advanced consist works in 128 speed step mode with NCE command station.
2. The NCE system easily creates and breaks down the consist per the ProCab keys.
3. After clearing a consist, both locos run normally. With Massoth at 28 speed step, I had to reset CV19 in both locos to get normal operation (see original post).
4. CV1 values do not change after programming (see original post)
5. Zimo allows engine sounds to be completely turned off, Massoth does not. This is nice in a loco/tender consist when both have sound.
6. Zimo allows a sound to be programmed to multiple function keys. Massoth only allows a sound to be associated with a single function key. This was an issue with independently controlled pantographs where I want to use an "up" sound with two different function keys.
7. Massoth is limited to about 12 sounds available in the decoder at any one time(sound file dependent). In addition, the sound file can only be swapped out with another full sound file so you cannot use a bell from one and whistle from another. A Zimo decoder, out of the box, contains multiple groups of sounds allowing CV programmable choices for different bell, whistle, etc sounds.

Looks like I'm finally good to go here. I wanted to thank everyone on the forum for their help and Axel for his help with Zimo.

Pat


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds great Pat, and I'm glad the bickering seems to have died down on this thread.

I have changed over to Zimo from my beloved NCE and it's another whole order of complexity.

I have the brand new hardware and the firmware is not finalized, so there is no "Beginner" mode, and consisting is not fully implemented yet.

I do see that it is a system that I will never outgrow, and while I thought the sliding speed control was weird, there are some awesome features associated with it.

Oh, even with momentum, 28 speed steps locks you into one of those 28... not normally a big deal, but sometimes I run 2 or 3 trains on my mainline myself, and being able to set the speed I want means 128 speed steps. Also, if you do not run a lot of momentum, 28 speed steps is really coarse when accelerating and decelerating.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg and everyone, in case you have not noticed there is a half speed button on the Zimo handheld (mine is still the older MX1 system) and you no longer need a function key assigned for half speed. I do not know if the newest system has this implemented.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree it's good you got some resolution here...and no doubt about it, the Zimo decoders are hard to beat, especially in slow speed performance. While I prefer the Massoth central station and navigator handheld, my preference for decoders is Zimo now. The most recent MLGB decoder (a version of their G1 decoder) can be made to run almost as smoothly, but still not as feature-laden as Zimo.

Keith


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