# Building codes...TOTALLY OF TOPIC



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I just had to rant and rave someplace.
Many of us get tired of all those building codes, covenants, etc. Its my property let me buid what I want.

An old house burned down. In an older neighbor hood.
Our old Queen Ann two story is just up the hill from the white house in the photo.
This brand new 400 sq ft "home" meets all the local codes.

But
would you want it next to your home??









I know the builder and even the city inspector said there is nothing about what it should look like.


I kept hearing about it and finally drove by.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Shudder.......


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"would you want it next to your home??"

Yes, probably worth more than the "old house" bringing a better tax rateable. In this economic times having anyone willing to invest in the housing market is a plus!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Could have been worse, could have been a "Barndominium"










A house built out of a pre-fab steel warehouse Butler Building


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Nope. Where are the window(s)? Looks more like a garage or shed than a home. 
Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup, that's what I thought too! On first look I thought that the people that lived in the white house had built a shed/garage. Now I find out that it's a_ house?!!







_


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I was just thinking it'd make a nice shop. just add a bit of junk and a rusty old fender. Be perfect for Needles, California. Ever been there?


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I always thought the first building code rule was to build along the same general lines as the rest of the neighborhood. The county should never have issued permits for this.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

In Florida each room except maybe the bathrooms must have windows that a person can excape through. Doesn't look like many windows in the place. 

A HOA would not have allowed a building like that to be built in the neighborhood, but like most other things, HOAs typically go over board and rule like the gastopo.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, 

Yeah, I know Needles well. One of the many "armpits" of the California desert!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Each bedroom needs egress window. 
anyway, its a pole shed with a foundation for frost code. But he could have talked them into vynal siding or something. 
There is another pole garage going up behind a victorian house. and they matched siding and color and even fish scale pattern in gable area. 

I have lost a number of job because I think its better for resale and looks much better if the garage matches the houses. 
Even my new shop here on 4 acres was kept small enough as to not look like a barn. 
Resale must be kept in mind.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Building codes are always a compromise between three things

1. your right to do as you please on your own property 

2. Your neighbors right to protect their property's value by preventing eyesores

3. The general public's right to not have hazards resulting from dangerous and substandard construction.

Nobody is gojg t o be completley happy.

The thing that always frosts me about building codes is that my county, which is otherwise very well run, never makes it clear what the codes are. Say I want to build a workshop, and I want to run electricity to it. I cant' find the electrical codes posted anywhere. I can buy a copy of the national codes, and figure out what applies, but shouldn't the county make this available.


Maybe not, maybe it's better left to professionals


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Is that a street between the new "House" and the existing older home? I too thought that it was a garage for the older house. I am for freedom of expression, but one should still follow the general architectural outline of the area. Be expressive where no one else can see what you have expressed


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 26 May 2010 07:35 PM 
Building codes are always a compromise between three things

1. your right to do as you please on your own property 

2. Your neighbors right to protect their property's value by preventing eyesores

3. The general public's right to not have hazards resulting from dangerous and substandard construction.

Nobody is gojg t o be completley happy.

The thing that always frosts me about building codes is that my county, which is otherwise very well run, never makes it clear what the codes are. Say I want to build a workshop, and I want to run electricity to it. I cant' find the electrical codes posted anywhere. I can buy a copy of the national codes, and figure out what applies, but shouldn't the county make this available.


Maybe not, maybe it's better left to professionals 



Local codes have priority over national codes. But I believe the local code must be at least a stringent as the national, or the national would then have priority. I may be wrong about this.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The real problem with the small house is that it will hurt property values of all the nearby larger homes due to the size and difference in archetecture.
JimC.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... 

subdivision I built my house in has no covenants or HOA...but then again hardly any houses, roads, utilities, ect. However, my lot is one of a row that shares a utility easement with a much more populated subdivision that does have covenants, ect. Being in the city limits, I had to conform to city code when I built my place...which didn't bother me all that much, as it was mostly common sense, safety, and enough 'giveme's' to keep the local building supply outfits afloat (well that last did bother me somewhat - ended up using at least four times the amount of wire than was really needed, among other things, but what the heck). However, the codes kept changing...now ten years later, I'd have to rework half my breaker box and redo the floor for the second story to be truly up to code, to cite but a couple of things. Pa helped me build my place, he was constantly showing up with ideas to do this or that that were perfectly legal back in the 1960's or 1970's - but are flat out banned in the current day. 

On the other hand, I've known other people outside the city limits who didn't give a d*mn about codes or what not, and could get away with it because there was no authority. One guy I know bought one of these places after the owner passed away and has spent four frustrating years trying to fix the things that would not need fixing had they been done to code in the first place - everything from freezing water lines to a badly built roof. Another family essentially abandoned the home they built in a gung-ho 'we don't care about no stinking codes' manner about a dozen years back. They are now contemplating tearing it all the way down to the ground and rebuilding it to code - just so things work right.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The “Uniform Building Code” has published the standard(s) that are utilized nationally to recommend minimum standards throughout the land, now known as International Building Codes or IBC. National Electrical Code or NEC deals with electrical concerns. And the National Fire Protection Association or NFPA deals with fire and safety. 

To the beast of my knowledge all States require an interpretation of the aforementioned codes to be recognized Statewide and Locally with the caveat that local municipalities are allowed to adapt most codes to serve local needs or requirements. I deal with this stuff in California all the time, its know fun. One City or County allows something and another has provisions in their code to prevent same or require much more than the latter to affect the same work. Not to mention the CODES are written vaguely and often interpreted arbitrarily by local officials’ and there is nothing you can do about it either (local interpretation rules all), this presents huge problems for many. 

Generally speaking, the local Planning Department over sees and approves all aesthetic considerations. Specifically they consider height, footprint in comparison to land mass, building size/footprint in square feet in comparison to adjacent buildings on the same lot or parcel, esthetic value as viewed from multiple locations and more (screened or in line of site) a nd more. 

Perhaps there is but one room in the lowly aforementioned structure, wheres the outhouse? 

Michael


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

While I am fully aware that before I click the 'Submit' button I'm likely in a real minority, but honestly I'd rather have that built next door than be under the thumb of a HOA (Home Owners Association) period.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

MAYBE you can offset the building code restrictions with an ,lets say a little bit odd paint shop (colorwise)so it might fit into the surround!


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## hawkfanjohn (Nov 17, 2009)

I think thats a good looking house~ if I could figure out how to post pics I;\'d show you a house built out of several old steel grain bins and a house consisting of a caboose and a boxcar. 

I thought they were neat houses


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

It is a simple basic house. It is probably all he could afford. There is a need for some Building codes. but most of the stuff just drives up the cost of the house. I had such a hassel with just a 32x 40 gararge I gave up and never finished it. Depending on which inspector you got the game plan changed. One would make you change stuff that the other guy approved. There was a war going on between inspectors. And we suffered for it. So now I have a 32 x 40 concrete pad that I use as my work patio. I surounded the parimater with sheds that are small enought not to come under the building code. I finally demanded one to show me page in the code book where I was worng.....He didn't evan havd a copy of the code book with him. He refused to go back to the office and get it and show me. The on the next lot north of me build a 5 bedroom house with a 6 car gararge with out one permit.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

That was proabably all he could afford with what little insurance money he got. Still better than an old mobile home hauled onto the lot. Or an old camper that will never move under it's own power. 

Chas


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

This brand new 400 sq ft "home" meets all the local codes. 
And we're in a recession and it looks like it was inexpensive to build. 

Many of us get tired of all those building codes, covenants, etc. Its my property let me buid what I want 
So why can't other folk build what THEY want? 
would you want it next to your home?? 
You said it: _Its my property let me buid what I want_


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Marty,

It could be worse. A LOT worse.

We moved here (in the country surrounded by woods we own) after we had a roller skating rink built with their air conditioners only 50 feet from our children's bedroom windows. Disco was the craze and we could literally feel the vibrations from the music.

We had purchased a home in a sub-division with building codes. There was a little white house behind us. What we did not realize was that our back fence was the city limit and the county had no building codes. 

One day we found the white house being moved and the next thing we knew was that the skating rink was being built. No laws were broken and the skating rink was even brought into the city and grandfathered in without concern for any codes.

Did anyone care? No. All they cared about was that their kids could be dropped off at the skating rink which amounted to cheap baby sitting.

It took us years to find a buyer for our home (where we had lived happily for 17 years) and get out at a major loss. The same rink owner had done the same thing to multiple neighborhoods. We were there and we stopped him cold when he tried to build his next rink. 
Laws like policemen only show up after a crime has been committed because nothing is a crime unless and until someone gets around to passing a law (or code) reacting to an injustice and making it a crime.


Eventually the rink owner went bankrupt and we like to think we had a hand in it.

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I live on a hill side, my home located in a bowl. Neighbors above are on the bluff and those below near the edge of a 100 year flood plain... My property line is only part way up the hill. 
One day I hear a group of men digging a hole right on the property marker and before I get back there they have planted a RR tie in the ground. I ask What is going on? 
Well the 'lady' that owns the ground says; "I'm going to house a horse on the hillside and there's nothing in my paperwork that says I can't. I also work for the county and all my friends said I can do this!" Then she implies that she'll overlook a 4x8' shed I've built onn my property.... as if she could cite me for it! 
Off the top of my head I tell them that there should be a ten foot off set from my property and her fence. Mucho grumbling about moving that post.... I run to my computer and search the county codes. Turns out horses have stricter codes and I find enough to stop those plans, that frickin post is still there and one strand of wire from the top of the hill to that post, but it's on her property...so I try to ignore it. 
When I showed her the county codes she fetched her huge husband, he gets in my face and tells me nobody is going to tell him how to use his land. I calmly reply; "Sir I am taking that as a threat!" He gets red and louder, I repeat the threat line and finally he shuts up. Then I tell them what I think of them for wanting to turn my backyard into their horse's toilet! 
I finished by saying they were lucky I stopped them before they could carry out their plans as I would have enlisted the Health board and sued them for all they had! 

I think they moved back to the city where they belong, something about too many horses on their property.... 1 acre and 4 horses! 

Maybe I'll fire up the chainsaw one of these days and drop that tie....

John


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 26 May 2010 06:33 PM 
In Florida each room except maybe the bathrooms must have windows that a person can excape through. Doesn't look like many windows in the place. 





This is true, its actually every "habitable room" and usually reads like " and shall have an operable window not less than 10% of room area for light and means of egress" It also includes minimum floor area for all "habitable rooms". That includes living rooms, kitchens, bedrooms. Its not much you can techniacally build a "house" with as little as 200 sq ft and there is a movement toward "Micro-homes" some that are less than 100 sq ft.










from Tumbleweed Homes, under 200 sq ft

So for 400 sq ft I am not surprised this box looks like a garage/shed. If they had placed more windows and a simple but broad porch across the front of the house it would have much better "curb appeal"










A little photoediting on Marty's original pic. Same house but better "curb appeal"


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Vic; try a gable porch on the right and a dormer and it will look like the one across the street. Some issues are zoning or deed covenants. Building codes don't cover aesthetics.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 26 May 2010 09:30 PM 
While I am fully aware that before I click the 'Submit' button I'm likely in a real minority, but honestly I'd rather have that built next door than be under the thumb of a HOA (Home Owners Association) period.



Steve, i'm with you on the Homeowners ASS..........

It's been done in the past, Levitown for example, with not very good long term results. I hear too many frustrating stories about them.


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## Pete Chimney (Jan 12, 2008)

Could be worse, they mighthave eleced to paint the house bright pink!


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 27 May 2010 08:22 AM 
Posted By rlvette on 26 May 2010 06:33 PM 
In Florida each room except maybe the bathrooms must have windows that a person can excape through. Doesn't look like many windows in the place. 





This is true, its actually every "habitable room" and usually reads like " and shall have an operable window not less than 10% of room area for light and means of egress" It also includes minimum floor area for all "habitable rooms". That includes living rooms, kitchens, bedrooms. Its not much you can techniacally build a "house" with as little as 200 sq ft and *there is a movement toward "Micro-homes" some that are less than 100 sq ft.*










from Tumbleweed Homes, under 200 sq ft

So for 400 sq ft I am not surprised this box looks like a garage/shed. If they had placed more windows and a simple but broad porch across the front of the house it would have much better "curb appeal"










A little photoediting on Marty's original pic. Same house but better "curb appeal" 



We can't make up our minds in this country. We used to live in managable sized homes. then we went to enormous structures that broke the bank. Now we are moving toward "Micro Housing". I have seen these little homes mentioned elsewhere.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Pete Chimney on 27 May 2010 07:59 PM 
Could be worse, they mighthave eleced to paint the house bright pink!




There is a house in Medford, NJ, that has white and green alternating 8" aluminum siding


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Why should a new house have to be in the "same style" as every other house in the neighborhood?? How boring! 

I don't see a problem with the house in the photo. Looks fine to me -- neat, clean, safe. A bit bland but it's not my house so it's none of my business, nor anyone else's. Besides, once they get some foliage growing around it it'll look even better. 

A for the complaint about "lowering property values", where is it written that anyone has a right to high property values?? 

Here in San Diego, the cost of housing has gotten insane thanks to idiots with more money than brains paying too much, and then whining about how much more they have to pay in taxes and demanding that everyone else's taxes should be as high as theirs. Meanwhile the people at the lower end of the economic scale get screwed because the increase in property values drives up the cost of rent as well.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Ray, There is something to be said about uniformity, and also simplicity. While in Italy, a few years ago, I couldn't help but feel the peacefulness. It had not only to do with their simpler life style, but also with their architecture. Even in a fairly large city like Florence, one could look out over the rooftops and they all were of the same red tile, whether they were commercial buildings or residential. In the countryside of Tuscany and surrounding regions, the simple stone construction and again tile rooftops fit in with nature beautifully.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I agree with Dan in that I think a lot has to do with the neighborhood. 

Some homes are in an area that gives off a certain atmosphere based on a degree of uniformity. Other areas are helter skelter with no uniformity to them.

When we lived in subdivisions I felt it was good that houses in the subdivision had a sort of uniformity. Some were more expensive than others. My neighbor uphill had a nicer home than ours and ours was nicer than the one on the other side. Uniformity does not have to mean all of the same price level. I think this is why people move to subdivisions. 

I also agree with comments about unrealistic associations. If we had one I was unaware of it and no one ever complained about what anyone else was doing.

Where we live now there are no codes and there is a steel shop behind our home and a caboose in the yard. Our neighbors don't care about the shop (it was there when we moved here) and they think the caboose is neat. There is also a railroad crossing in the driveway. The ability to have this degree of freedom is a major reason why we live here. 

By the same token if we moved back to a subdivision I would not want someone to put a house trailer next to us (our son and his family live in a trailer - I am not putting trailers down).

When we moved here we got the shop pretty much free because, as the Realtor told us, in this neighborhood a large steel building was not the norm so it did not add any value to the property. 

It is only reasonable that people do not want to have someone build something that devalues the neighborhood. Even those who bought homes they could afford do not want their investment to be unnecessarily devalued. 
If I drive through a neighborhood that is far beyond my financial means I would still feel it was unfair if someone built a shack there.


Sometimes I think it is sort of an American thing to do whatever we like regardless of everyone else.

There is no perfect answer.

Jerry


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Our home is in the city of Burbank. Not large, not small. 1600 sq. ft. All the homes are custom-made, no tract homes. ALL lots are .3 acres or larger. The one home two doors away is setting on .62 acres. 4300 sq. ft. THERE ARE city restrictions on set-back of the home from the street and whether your home blocks a view. We live on a hillside street. BUT LATELY, we have some very wealthy young people buying the older homes, tearing them to the ground and building "mansions". We call it "mansionization". These homes are over 6000 sq. ft. and sit on a lot of about 12000 sq. ft. They change the whole character of the existing neighborhood. They find a way to have their team of lawyers and architects, change the building plans to sidestep the city planning board AND they getaway with it! About fifteen years ago, I wanted to build a circular drive as part of my front yard. I have PLENTY of room. There are other circular drives in my neighborhood, but they were constructed at the same time as the home. Built in the late forties and early fifties. I was turned down because they told me I would change the "character" of the area. Many years ago, I wanted to add a room and bath above my two-car garage at the rear of my house. It was considered a "granny flat" and I need the 100% approval of all neighbors within a 750 ft. radius of my house AND there could not be another room over a garage, existing, within 1000 ft. radius, without special permits from the city building department. I have to agree with Marty being upset about this "home". Does not fit the character of the home next door OR other homes in the area. Frankly the house looks like a fancy "Butler" building to me. I don't think it would have killed the builder to add a few more windows and a porch. JMHO.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"By the same token if we moved back to a subdivision I would not want someone to put a house trailer next to us (our son and his family live in a trailer - I am not putting trailers down)." 

Nowadays they are called Manufactured Homes....and have come a long ways from 'trailers'. When I was looking for property 8 years ago all the homes in the $100.000 range were dumps with cracked foundations from a shrinking water table. 
Looking rural, I found a nice 3 bedroom Manufautured home on an acre. Yep I bought it and have not regretted it. Other than sitting higher off the ground it looks like any other home. It would have cost 3 times that amount to build an equal home in this location... 

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 28 May 2010 09:48 AM 
Nowadays they are called Manufactured Homes....and have come a long ways from 'trailers'.

John 


Hi John,

I was referring more to the outer appearance than to the internal construction. I have seen many manufactured homes that I would not object to having next door. 
When I said trailers I was referring to trailers and not to manufactured homes. Many times it is the condition and appearance that is more important than the construction.


To a large extent it has a lot more to do with the occupant than the construction of a home. Most people would not want me as a neighbor. I cut my grass (weeds) a few times a year - now with a tractor and bush hog.

My neighbors (1/4 mile away) keep their lawns trimmed but since you cannot see my house or yard from the road how often the weeds get cut is not important.

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Jerry, 
I know there's a difference... In Laguna Beach I had a very old unit (not roadworthy enough to call it a trailer! ) that had a 6 1/2' high ceiling! I can't reach this one standing on a 6' ladder. 
It's all in the conotation... I never thought of my self as trailer trash! But more than that, I want to distance myself from 'trailers' because of other's perception when you say what it is.... 
What I have is a nice home. that came on two wheel bogies, but this home will never see another road! 

John


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## Tom Thornton (Nov 18, 2008)

Marty Building codes are one thing and zoning is something else. Where I just moved to there are county building codes. The 5ac place is zoned Ag 1.

That means I will bring the breaker box up to code and can paint my house pink with orange spots and raise a pig for the freezer. With zoning a city or whatever can say what kind of house could or not be built.


The town I moved from at one time had not much in the way of zoning at one time . Now they have much stronger laws about it. You can drive around town and see the past mistakes.


Tom Thornton


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Poor Needles









May be an armpit (especially at 125 degrees), but their Dennys still makes the best breakfast of all the Dennys I've ever been to.


And don't forget the in progress rebuilding of the old Harvey House, El Garces. Still doesn't make much sense to me why they would invest so much money on the project being in Needles, but should be beautiful when done. 


As far as desert armpits go, I think Ludlow qualifies much more as an armpit then Needles.




Back on the original topic, eck...not much appeal for a house. Too industrial looking. What is needed are some architectural covenants to prevent things like this. But it could be worse as others have stated. At least it doesn't have wheels.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't get me started on "zoning laws" 
our 4 acres can NOT have livestock. more than 4 dogs you need a kennel lissons. My new shop could not be any closer than 50ft to any property line. 
BUT , If I was commercial I can be 5ft from property line. I'm not supoose to have a busness here. yet I can have a home based busness. If I get problems I simply remove my signs. 

But we use the 50ft space behind the shot has a shooting range. 50 and 100 yds parralle. 

Free country, the goverment can do anything it wants.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 28 May 2010 01:57 PM 
has a shooting range. 50 and 100 yds 

I KNEW there was something I liked about this guy! 

Forget the toy trains, pass the Colt 45.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Say what you will regarding building codes & zoning laws etc. (i.e. the good, the bad, & the ugly). But, I would remind you to think long and hard on what you ask for regarding intrusion of private property rights.

By way of example, I might remind you of the current U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of 'Eminent Domain' and review the results of Kelo v City of New London and then ponder just how it is we got to this state of affairs. Once on that 'slippery slope' it's darn hard if not impossible to get off. Additionally, the willy-nilly use of the phrase 'there ought to be a law' does have consequences.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry 
We now have a "tower" for 250 yd dear rifles. The guys set their sites on it. 












Spotter for each shooter.

Blue rock off to the east after harvest is over.
no photo of tower yet.

Steve 
I watched a Bio on the state parks and how they run lots of folks off their land who came here for the "freedom". Just to creat state parks for all to see.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 28 May 2010 04:52 PM 
Jerry 
We now have a "tower" for 250 yd dear rifles. The guys set their sites on it. 












Spotter for each shooter.

Blue rock off to the east after harvest is over.
no photo of tower yet.

Steve 
I watched a Bio on the state parks and how they run lots of folks off their land who came here for the "freedom". Just to creat state parks for all to see. 


Garden railroading and 45-70 all-in-one. Heaven on Earth.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Marty,

I am a Licensed Concealed Handgun instructor so I just put my "course" targets in the driveway where I can put down a Revolution and pick up a SIG.












Then there is the 75 yard "range" north from the upper deck (above the layout pictured). 










The 150 yard range is to the northwest from the top deck. I just have to pick up my .223 empties because they can short out the rails. 
You have me beat. 150 yards is my max. Darn, a bigger layout AND a longer range!!!









Look carefully and you will see the whitetail centered on the target (no I don't hunt anymore except with a camera - it would be too easy). 










Jerry 

"Garden railroading and 45-70 all-in-one. Heaven on Earth." - Welcome to "Country Living."


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Building codes to rifle range hmmmm Is that Drift or Hi Jack


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 29 May 2010 06:06 AM 
Building codes to rifle range hmmmm Is that Drift or Hi Jack












Well, it is Marty's topic after all.









Perhaps rifle ranges are a demonstration of what is possible when building codes are non-existent or reasonable. 

Can a person hijack their own topic?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 29 May 2010 07:07 AM 
Posted By John J on 29 May 2010 06:06 AM 
Building codes to rifle range hmmmm Is that Drift or Hi Jack












Well, it is Marty's topic after all.









Perhaps rifle ranges are a demonstration of what is possible when building codes are non-existent or reasonable. 

Can a person hijack their own topic?
























Now sure if one can Hi Jack his own topic.









Will Check with Shad


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

It s all in knowing everyone. At less we are not EACH tring to prove our point. 
But you call only shoot so much. $$$$$$$$


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Tiny house might be just right for me. Put it out on say 1/2 acre of wooded land on a back road a couple miles from town... Sounds pretty nice.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Good thought. Less maintenance on the house means more train time.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I was just reading another topic, and stole this photo for this thread. I couldn't help myself. I believe it is self
explanatory.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 30 May 2010 06:46 PM 
_{snip...} _I believe it is self explanatory. _{snip...}_
Not as clear-cut as you might think, I can think of at least half-a-dozen scenarios of how what is depicted in the photograph came to be. And the one thing I have no doubt about 'The Law' is the playground of wealth & power.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 28 May 2010 08:28 PM 
Hi Marty,

I am a Licensed Concealed Handgun instructor so I just put my "course" targets in the driveway where I can put down a Revolution and pick up a SIG.












Then there is the 75 yard "range" north from the upper deck (above the layout pictured). 










The 150 yard range is to the northwest from the top deck. I just have to pick up my .223 empties because they can short out the rails. 
You have me beat. 150 yards is my max. Darn, a bigger layout AND a longer range!!!









Look carefully and you will see the whitetail centered on the target (no I don't hunt anymore except with a camera - it would be too easy). 










Jerry 

"Garden railroading and 45-70 all-in-one. Heaven on Earth." - Welcome to "Country Living."





Jerry You need to post some more pictures of your layout. it looks interesting in these pictures.

JJ


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 30 May 2010 07:22 PM 
Posted By Madman on 30 May 2010 06:46 PM 
_{snip...} _I believe it is self explanatory. _{snip...}_
Not as clear-cut as you might think, I can think of at least half-a-dozen scenarios of how what is depicted in the photograph came to be. And the one thing I have no doubt about *'The Law' is the playground of wealth & po*wer[/b].


Steve, tell me something I don't Know. LOL


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 28 May 2010 08:28 PM 
Hi Marty,

I am a Licensed Concealed Handgun instructor so I just put my "course" targets in the driveway where I can put down a Revolution and pick up a SIG.












Then there is the 75 yard "range" north from the upper deck (above the layout pictured). 



The 150 yard range is to the northwest from the top deck. I just have to pick up my .223 empties because they can short out the rails. 
You have me beat. 150 yards is my max. Darn, a bigger layout AND a longer range!!!









Jerry 

"Garden railroading and 45-70 all-in-one. Heaven on Earth." - Welcome to "Country Living."



SIG? Small hands eh?  LOL!! I'm jealous....garden railroading & shooting ranges all in one, now that's a dream come true! Very nice Jerry!

Nice B27s you have propped up there.

Plastic slip-over brass catchers work pretty well for me, when I need them...so your empties (soon-to-be-reloads that is) won't short out your track. I can't stand the canvas/nylon baggie ones, just the slip-over plastic ones.

Very nice!!


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 28 May 2010 04:52 PM 

We now have a "tower" for 250 yd dear rifles. The guys set their sites on it. 











Spotter for each shooter.

Blue rock off to the east after harvest is over.
no photo of tower yet.
CURSE YOU MARTY, you truly have it ALL!!! You have set the bar high, too high for mere mortals to reach....

NICE!!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 30 May 2010 07:30 PM 
Jerry You need to post some more pictures of your layout. it looks interesting in these pictures.

JJ





Hi JJ,

Back when I was building my layouts I took a lot of pictures and posted them but a few suggested that I was bragging about what I had so I pretty much stopped taking photos aside from particular projects I was working on. Then too my largest layout is in the dark crawl space (lighted for operations but not for photography).

Ray Manley posted some photos on his web site several years ago:

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Jerrys-rr.htm

Below is a RR-Track representation of my house layouts. The upper outside part has since been redone pretty much like the 2nd drawing. The cross hatchings are where there are over and under layouts (one yard above another yard).























Then there is the shop layout and the caboose layout.

I won't say more because I don't want to get Marty's topic drifting more than it has. The one thing I will add is that I often refer to my layout(s) as The Plastic, Plywood and Carpet Railway because unlike Marty's there is not a blade of grass or plant on it. If it grows I kill it - this makes for a lot less maintenance.









My wife is trying to build a garden around my layout but when anything grows to where it overhangs the layout I slip out and chop it off. Next year when she retires things may get interesting.

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks Jerry. Great Pictures.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By silverstatespecialties on 30 May 2010 08:26 PM 
SIG? Small hands eh?  LOL!! I'm jealous....garden railroading & shooting ranges all in one, now that's a dream come true! Very nice Jerry!

Nice B27s you have propped up there.

Plastic slip-over brass catchers work pretty well for me, when I need them...so your empties (soon-to-be-reloads that is) won't short out your track. I can't stand the canvas/nylon baggie ones, just the slip-over plastic ones.

Very nice!!



No small hands. The SIG's are P-220's and P-226's.

I don't do much shooting anymore. Most of my guns were stolen in a burglary years ago. I never replaced them - getting into garden railroading instead. Some of the stolen ones were recovered by the police with the serial numbers ground off. I had new numbers engraved back on but if these are ever stolen the first cop that saw the re-engraved serial numbers would probably throw the possessor in jail for a LONG time. Fortunately I sold the big guns and the Class III's long before the burglary.

The nice thing about Arkansas is that paper and steel B27's don't bother the cops or neighbors. When a neighbor's burglar alarm goes off I am usually there long before the deputy and the neighbors and the deputies appreciate it.

Gun Control is a slow squeeze on the trigger. 

Cheers,

Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

This is an all in one topic, after spending another weekend doing nothing but weed and plant control. I Envy Jerry. I still have not run a train yet. 
But there is changes going on that you all will see in Sept.(if I can keep quiet about them.)


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 31 May 2010 05:51 PM 
This is an all in one topic, after spending another weekend doing nothing but weed and plant control. I Envy Jerry. 

Hi Marty,

There is one major difference between your layout and mine...

No one is going to drive 1,000 miles to see The Plastic, Plywood and Carpet Railway.
















Jerry


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 31 May 2010 09:05 AM 
No small hands. The SIG's are P-220's and P-226's.

I don't do much shooting anymore. Most of my guns were stolen in a burglary years ago. I never replaced them - getting into garden railroading instead. Some of the stolen ones were recovered by the police with the serial numbers ground off. I had new numbers engraved back on but if these are ever stolen the first cop that saw the re-engraved serial numbers would probably throw the possessor in jail for a LONG time. Fortunately I sold the big guns and the Class III's long before the burglary.

The nice thing about Arkansas is that paper and steel B27's don't bother the cops or neighbors. When a neighbor's burglar alarm goes off I am usually there long before the deputy and the neighbors and the deputies appreciate it.

Gun Control is a slow squeeze on the trigger. 

Cheers,

Jerry




Nice SIGs! I went through armorer school for them in the 1990s, very nice handguns. I'm on my 3rd Glock duty pistol; I've shot so much over the years I've worn out my first 2 and need to send them back to Glock for rebuilding.

Sorry to hear about your burglary; but I'm sure that if you have the original report info about the serial #s being ground off, very few LEOs should have a problem with that.

Agreed about your point on GC.

As for your layout, I disagree about "bragging," as it provides inspiration to others (like me, about to move yet again and so have to put my GRR plans on hold once again). At least we're lucky enough to be buying a home with no HOAs nor CCRs, as our current HOA actually prohibits garden railroads! Fine, we'll show them, we'll move into a home with a much bigger yard and no HOA!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By silverstatespecialties on 31 May 2010 09:53 PM 

Nice SIGs! I went through armorer school for them in the 1990s, very nice handguns. I'm on my 3rd Glock duty pistol; I've shot so much over the years I've worn out my first 2 and need to send them back to Glock for rebuilding.

Sorry to hear about your burglary; but I'm sure that if you have the original report info about the serial #s being ground off, very few LEOs should have a problem with that.

Agreed about your point on GC.

As for your layout, I disagree about "bragging," as it provides inspiration to others (like me, about to move yet again and so have to put my GRR plans on hold once again). At least we're lucky enough to be buying a home with no HOAs nor CCRs, as our current HOA actually prohibits garden railroads! Fine, we'll show them, we'll move into a home with a much bigger yard and no HOA!


Hi Warren,

My first SIG P220s were marked Browning BDA's (Browning Double Action). The price went up quite a bit when they were dropped by Browning and imported by SIG. The Brownings had a much nicer finish. My favorite was the .38 Super (great for bowling pins and falling plates). Unfortunately it was stolen and never recovered. I had imported a .22 conversion for the P220. It is the only conversion I have ever seen. Since I liked the Super more than the 9mm I put the .22 conversion onto the 9mm frame and sold the 9mm barrel and slide making it into a full time 22. Thankfully that was recovered. I guess the thieves did not want a .22.

Glocks were always too small for my hands. I was concerned the slide could catch the flesh of my hand. Even the new S&Ws with a round butt are too small for me.

At the time I was very active in IPSC competition.That slowed down a bit when I put a .45 ACP through my thigh (quick on the trigger - slow on the draw). That resulted in two trips to the hospital - one to patch the hole and another when I got home and realized it was not a crossing shot but rather an 11" channel (talk about an embarrassed doctor). Part of the reason for the accident was that the BDAs were so new that no one made a holster for them so I had to make do with a poor fitting shoulder holster.

I've only ever owned 2 or 3 SIGs at a time but they have always been favorites. I really hate to admit it but the Beretta 92s shoot every bit as accurate as the SIGs and SIGs don't come in stainless steel. Now that I am retired I have mainly returned to my roots - S&W revolvers. nothing is easier to reload or less expensive than plain old .38 Specials. Years ago I realized my hunting days were over along with my ability to handle the big guns so those that were not stolen were sold.

I actually have arthritis (only) in my trigger finger. 

It is all the government's fault. When I was an impressionable 17 year old they let me play with 20mm Revolvers (M39) and Gatling Guns (M61) and everything up through Nuclear Weapons (I was a USAF Weapons Specialist). I have been hooked on things that go bang ever since. The bigger and more frequent the bangs the better.

Playing with toy trains is a much less expensive hobby. The price of ammo these days has made plinking almost cost prohibitive but sometimes I just gotta make something go bang.

I guess some day I need to get around to photographing the layouts. There is never enough time and that has been a low priority.

Jerry


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