# A little help from my friends.



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

My Aster Daylight has developed a real problem. It will run for a time, 10 minutes, 30 minutes or 45 minutes and then it comes to a dead stop. The wheels jammed tight, all I do is turn off the throttle and it comes free. Sometimes it doesn’t do it for 2 or 3 runs or it does it every lap of my line. (265ft) I have opened up both valve chests and retimed it, no help, still does it. I turned it over on my work bench and looked for any binding but couldn’t find anything. Once when I had it inverted on the bench it jammed but I could find nothing and I couldn’t make it do it again. The fact it did it on the bench means it’s not steam related, I think that turning off the steam when it does it while running just means the pressure is off the forward motion and it’s free to rotate. It’s got me stumped, any ideas?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 03 Jun 2011 02:04 AM 
My Aster Daylight has developed a real problem. It will run for a time, 10 minutes, 30 minutes or 45 minutes and then it comes to a dead stop. The wheels jammed tight, all I do is turn off the throttle and it comes free. Sometimes it doesn’t do it for 2 or 3 runs or it does it every lap of my line. (265ft) I have opened up both valve chests and retimed it, no help, still does it. I turned it over on my work bench and looked for any binding but couldn’t find anything. Once when I had it inverted on the bench it jammed but I could find nothing and I couldn’t make it do it again. The fact it did it on the bench means it’s not steam related, I think that turning off the steam when it does it while running just means the pressure is off the forward motion and it’s free to rotate. It’s got me stumped, any ideas?


Dan
I am going to place my money on the axle pump


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 

In addition, have you checked the pistons themselves? They are a press fit with a peen over, and one may have started to work it's way off the piston rod at various times, causing it to strike the cylinder head (or not allow enough headspace for the steam and water to escape). The other item to check is that the piston rod is not unscrewing itself from the crosshead, which can cause the same problems, since the piston will essentially lengthen it's stroke a mm for every mm it is unscrewed from the crosshead, eventually it will strike the heads. 

I had an engine once that would run perfectly until it got hot enough to slip the piston head off the rod, which either threw the timing off (piston on the wrong end of the stroke) or jammed it up solid. A real bugger to figure out, as it would sometimes cool off and go back into position and be fine for a while. Wasn't until I pulled the front cover off of the cylinder after it did it again that I saw the witness marks on the piston and the cover. Rotating the engine through the motion it showed the problem again, and the piston head neatly fell out of the bore, which showed it needed to be re attached (my preferred method now being silver brazing). 

Food for thought.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I would also look for places were links swing "close" to something which might interfere. if a linkage has a little side play, it might only occasionally hit the interfereing part, then clear itself as soon as you let off the force. perhaps there is a loose screw (or worn rivet) in the linkage or the interfering part may move. rotate the engine by hand, and wiggle stuff, see if you can cause it to bind again. This should be a pretty easy thing to fix if loose parts are the cause. 

My old Aster/LGB Frank S had the piston rod issue described by Ryan. it ran fine until the rod unscrewed from the cross head enough to impact the front cylinder head...at which time I could no longer get it to turn over at all. If it is a press fit coming free I would expect the problem to be more and more common...Quickly...as the "press" wears off the fit. 

charles may also have it. if any one of the valves stick, the pressure in the pump body might stop the engine. 

Perhaps there is a bit of debris in a cylinder or in the steam port which occasionally gets in the way. hard to check without major disassembly.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 03 Jun 2011 02:04 AM 
My Aster Daylight has developed a real problem. It will run for a time, 10 minutes, 30 minutes or 45 minutes and then it comes to a dead stop. The wheels jammed tight, all I do is turn off the throttle and it comes free. Sometimes it doesn’t do it for 2 or 3 runs or it does it every lap of my line. (265ft) I have opened up both valve chests and retimed it, no help, still does it. I turned it over on my work bench and looked for any binding but couldn’t find anything. Once when I had it inverted on the bench it jammed but I could find nothing and I couldn’t make it do it again. The fact it did it on the bench means it’s not steam related, I think that turning off the steam when it does it while running just means the pressure is off the forward motion and it’s free to rotate. It’s got me stumped, any ideas?


Dan
I concur with Charles. It happened with the Big Boy and it was the axle pump that had gotten slightly out of line with the piston and would jam. The piston had worn the opening in the pump so that when the excentric was moving to the forward posetion it jamed and locked the rear engine up. I sent it to Norm and he remade the opening for the pump and it does not lock uo now at all.
Art


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Trade it in for an Accucraft. 
At least you then know what the problems are! 
I think that it's time for a 'strip down and rebuild' as it is getting rather old. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 03 Jun 2011 09:15 AM 
Trade it in for an Accucraft. 
At least you then know what the problems are! 
I think that it's time for a 'strip down and rebuild' as it is getting rather old. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
"Strip down" well, the parts are worth more than the whole (given the stock of parts lists at Aster)...probably be able to buy 3 Accucrafts!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I would add that the only time that I saw Dan's Daylight do this, it did NOT appear to be a mechanical jam. 
It seemed to me that it was at that moment actually had steam to both sides of the piston, or trying to go both ways at the same time. 
Most strange. 
The fact that as Dan says, shutting off the throttle, solves the problem seems to reinforce my theory. 
I am sure that you will be able to fix it Dan. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 03 Jun 2011 09:51 AM 
I would add that the only time that I saw Dan's Daylight do this, it did NOT appear to be a mechanical jam. 
It seemed to me that it was at that moment actually had steam to both sides of the piston, or trying to go both ways at the same time. 
Most strange. 
The fact that as Dan says, shutting off the throttle, solves the problem seems to reinforce my theory. 
I am sure that you will be able to fix it Dan. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada David
Dan indicated "I have opened up both valve chests and retimed it, no help, still does it" so that would not allow for both set of rods in the same direction unless it is a factor Ryan indicated.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan, 
I would suggest its a wheel shifting on the axle [out of qaurter]..sudden stop and then "steam off" free again is the clue. 
roll it on its back[ cradle] grasp each wheel in turn ,while holding the other on the same axle, and twist. 

Gordon.


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## HeliconSteamer (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 
My old Pearse Countess had a piston come unthreaded from the crosshead, and the early symptom was jamming up. It did not happen with any seeming regularity until it started working out further and I noted the problem. That would probably be the easiest thing to check. 

Alternatively, I would say that Gordon's suggestion about quartering is a good one. If there is a problem, I would wager that it is likely on the main axle. 

Good luck. See you in Sacramento in 6 weeks.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Taperpin on 03 Jun 2011 03:31 PM 
Dan, 
I would suggest its a wheel shifting on the axle [out of qaurter]..sudden stop and then "steam off" free again is the clue. 
roll it on its back[ cradle] grasp each wheel in turn ,while holding the other on the same axle, and twist. 

Gordon. Gordon
If this was a core problem would it not be much more evident than the few times Dan has found it to be a problem. In other words, once out of quarter is does not magically return to proper status thus could become a more consistant problem as to "locking up."


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

This is interesting. I can hardly wait to find out what the cause is. My money is on the axle pump too.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Another variable that can have the similar situation is lack of oil to cylinders.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

When people mention *out of quarter* is that meaning the crank-pin is off it's mark? When I was trying to get to the bottom of my Mikado's "binding" when putting on the coupling rods, I was told it could be an "out of quarter" Driver/axle then I see it brought up in this thread again. BTW, I have my chassis rolling very smoothly at the moment.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

"Out of Quarter" has two meanings: 

1) the crank pin on one wheel is not exactly 90 degrees from the crank pin on the other wheel of that one axle. This can cause the wheels to lock-up and not turn because the distance from one crank pin to the next will not be equal throughout the rotation of the wheels. 

2) The whole of the valve gear on one side is not exactly 90 degrees from the other side, as evidenced by the "chuffs" coming from the stack not being equally timed from one to the next. This can be caused by all the crank pins on one side not being exactly 90 degrees from the other, or by misadjustement of the valve centering in the stroke for the distrance of the stroke. This can cause the engine to not 'self start' when steam is admitted to the system as there may be a certain point in the rotation of the wheels where no valve is open to admit steam to one end of a cylinder, or valves may be open to both ends of one cylinder thereby pressure trying to push the cylinder both directions and thus it not moving at all.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

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I understand, thanks Charles. What is the correction procedure for an out of quarter axle? With that explanation, it would seem that if the problem is not consistent, it likely is not a "quartering problem".


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I also doubt if the problem is an out of quarter axle, but I suppose that one wheel could be loose on the axle, but "sticky" such that at moments it slips a bit, locks up, and then when the engine is examined and the wheels are forced by hand the axle might again slip back to the correct position and kind of stick there again and the engine work fine. But, I think that unlikely. 

If it has an axle pump it might be the cause, and there might be several modes wherein the engine might "lock up". The ram in the pump might be tipping at an angle and binding,(as was already mentioned) or the eccentric and eccentric strap might be loose and catching sideways to cause enough bind to stop the engine. Relieveing the steam pressure lets the system relax and that might let the binding parts slip back where they belong and it then run okay for a while. I'd jiggle the eccentric reach rod to see if it is VERY loose on the eccentric, or the ram is easily moved sideways in the pump body. 

A piston coming lose in the cylinder is another possibility. A friend of mine had that happen to a PMResearch steam engine (stationary) at the Steam Museum at the Midwest Old Settlers and Threshers Reunion grounds last year. But that locked it up completely and had to be dissassembled to fix it. 

The piston rod unscrewing from the crosshead is another possibility, but I think that would not self-correct as this instance seems to do. 

There are several other things that can cause a binding. 

Maybe the axle pump is loose in its mounting and that allows it to twist and bind the ram. 

I guess it could be a worn main bearing on the drive rods at the wheel drive pin or in one of the side rods to the drive pins on the other wheels such that one of the rods tends to roll over sideways and bind. Again, when the pressure of the steam is relieved the system relaxes the parts fall back to the correct position and it works okay until some vibration knocks it into a binding position again.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Correcting an "out of quarter" axle is not for the feint of heart. Depends on the way it was manufactured in the first place. Ideally it should have been machined with a flat or a key to hold it in the correct position and if it is out of quarter then it is bad from the factory! Or severely BENT and BROKE, so make a new one. 

Assuming no flat or key then you would have to press the axle out of the wheel, realign it to the EXACT correct position and press the axle back into the wheel, with the appropriate metal glue (loctite) to hold it in position.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Interesting. My Mikado chassis is rolling very smoothly. I do notice at a very very slow push it will bind when the firerman's side coupling rod is at front dead center on the driver's crank-pin. Just a bit of weight on the frame's front is all that is needed to free it. When pushed at a faster speed, there is never an issue.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Jun 2011 08:55 PM 
Interesting. My Mikado chassis is rolling very smoothly. I do notice at a very very slow push it will bind when the firerman's side coupling rod is at front dead center on the driver's crank-pin. Just a bit of weight on the frame's front is all that is needed to free it. When pushed at a faster speed, there is never an issue. 

I suspect that when you get the boiler and all installed, the springs will compress a bit and that will align things a bit better and that slight binding will go away. (or get worse!







)


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, lots of good ideas so let’s take each one and decide if they could cause the problem. 
1) I don’t believe its steam related, I had it on the bench upside down and while turning the wheels it jammed. I was not able to see what caused it and while turning the wheels back and forth slightly it freed itself. I could not get it to do it again. The reason I did this on the bench was to see if I could see any wear marks, loose nuts, bolts fittings or whatever, I did not. 
2) I have a hard time with pistons coming loose as when it’s under steam and does it, all I do is turn the throttle off and slightly roll it back and it’s free, sometimes running for one lap to more than an hour or anywhere in-between, then it does it again. The piston is not magically going to go back in the correct place. The same goes for a wheel getting out of quarter or a valve getting out of time then going back in time perfectly. 
3) The frustrating thing is, there is no particular thing that cases it, not on a curve, a straight, running by itself or pulling cars. It doesn’t seem to be speed related either. When it runs it runs perfectly but when it stops it’s like it hits a brick wall. 

I have made sure all the piston rods are tight, the valve rods are tight and anything else I can see is tight. Tomorrow I am going to turn it upside down on the bench again and try to get it to jam. Today David suggested I do this and push the pump slip eccentric to one side and then the other as well as each set of wheels. Logically it’s the axel pump as it’s the only thing that I can see which could jam and then come un-jammed and let the engine run as well as it does till it happens again. If this doesn’t show anything then I am going to run it in reverse and see if it does it. The idea of running it in reverse just came to me as I have not done that.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03 Jun 2011 08:48 PM 
Correcting an "out of quarter" axle is not for the feint of heart. Depends on the way it was manufactured in the first place. Ideally it should have been machined with a flat or a key to hold it in the correct position and if it is out of quarter then it is bad from the factory! Or severely BENT and BROKE, so make a new one. 

Assuming no flat or key then you would have to press the axle out of the wheel, realign it to the EXACT correct position and press the axle back into the wheel, with the appropriate metal glue (loctite) to hold it in position. 



As per a GS4 (Accucraft) we had in shop for upgrades, it does not take alot of movement to put the engine out of quarter:


Quarter GS4 Driver(s)


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 03 Jun 2011 11:19 PM 
OK, lots of good ideas so let’s take each one and decide if they could cause the problem. 
1) I don’t believe its steam related, I had it on the bench upside down and while turning the wheels it jammed. I was not able to see what caused it and while turning the wheels back and forth slightly it freed itself. I could not get it to do it again. The reason I did this on the bench was to see if I could see any wear marks, loose nuts, bolts fittings or whatever, I did not. 
2) I have a hard time with pistons coming loose as when it’s under steam and does it, all I do is turn the throttle off and slightly roll it back and it’s free, sometimes running for one lap to more than an hour or anywhere in-between, then it does it again. The piston is not magically going to go back in the correct place. The same goes for a wheel getting out of quarter or a valve getting out of time then going back in time perfectly. 
3) The frustrating thing is, there is no particular thing that cases it, not on a curve, a straight, running by itself or pulling cars. It doesn’t seem to be speed related either. When it runs it runs perfectly but when it stops it’s like it hits a brick wall. 

I have made sure all the piston rods are tight, the valve rods are tight and anything else I can see is tight. Tomorrow I am going to turn it upside down on the bench again and try to get it to jam. Today David suggested I do this and push the pump slip eccentric to one side and then the other as well as each set of wheels. Logically it’s the axel pump as it’s the only thing that I can see which could jam and then come un-jammed and let the engine run as well as it does till it happens again. If this doesn’t show anything then I am going to run it in reverse and see if it does it. The idea of running it in reverse just came to me as I have not done that. 

Dan
As I said earlier in your thread, when I was running the BB at Zube Park a few months ago, the rear engine would come to a complete stiop. I found that the axle pump was moving ,ever so slightly and was causing the piston to lock up in the pump. Norm told me it happened to him on his 7 1/2 and almost threw him over the engine. Any way there are some very tiny screws that hold the pump in thhhe BB that were not tight causing the excess float in the piston in the pump thereby causing the lockup.
Good luck
Art


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Charles thanks for linking to the thread on Quartering. Very informative. I love learning about this stuff. I am really loving just trying to get to the bottom of why my chassis still has a very slight bind when being pushed ever so slowly. Won't happen at all with weight on the chassis and at a faster speed. I doubt the chassis will ever roll as slowly "while under steam" as I am doing which causes the bind every now and again. Even when it binds it does not take anything to get it going. I can just gently touch the fireman's side coupling rod joint and it is free again. 

Dan, I hope your problem is a cheap and easy fix.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I can just gently touch the fireman's side coupling rod joint and it is free again. 
Jeremiah, 
Sounds like one of your rods has a hole that isn't exactly true. It only takes a few thou of eccentricity to cause what you are finding. Touching it obviously frees something up. 

The (possible) reason it binds at slow speed is that the bind is a very small/short period of movement and isn't enough to halt the wheel. Anything more than a walk and it is past the bind before you notice it. Can you oil it enough to stop the bind?

Check out Charles 'quartering' thread (above link) which has a brief mention of the factory elongating the holes in the rods to solve a bind problem. Been there, done that (not recently though - I got wise reading all this stuff!)

Suggestions (NOTE I do not own an Aster and I've never tried this on one!): take the rods off and put them side by side. Find some rod (round bar, not coupling) exactly the internal diameter of the holes, and put it through the (coupling) rods. If there's a hole slightly in the wrong place you may find it, as one rod won't be exactly parallel (up/down and/or right/left.) 
Alternatively, clean off the oil, put some lapping compound (polishing compound) in all the holes and turn it a few times to work out the bind.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Pete, Thanks. Like I said, the bind is not noticeable until I push it a crawl pace. I'll just let the crank-pin wear it in naturally. I really have to work to make it happen anyway.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan , 
I have seen probably 15 examples of the Quartering problem over the years, I may not have explained myself well as its really the wheel loose a very small amount [around 5degrees or 10 of movement on the axle] almost a "click" it is also not generally the drive axle but the front or rear one, dont know why this is so, perhaps the builder took more care with his main axle? but Ive repaired it on Aster Models as well as others[including Argyle builds !] From memory the Daylight axle has a tiny "step" on the inner half of the axle seat of 0.005mm with no "splining" on the axle.. as soon as you take it off the track and turn upside down to look, just taking it off can allow the wheel to move that 5 degrees back and it turns ok... very hard to diagnose sometimes. 

Gordon.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan , 
Old memory is not so good this am, have alook at the axle ends /wheel centre area, if you can see one with a "OIL/DARK' 
smudge around the axle end, thats likely the offender, the oil works out of the wheel axle interface under movement like a crack would.. 

Gordon.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I’ve spent the better part of today going over this locomotive. Short of using vice grips there is no movement of wheels on the axles. No oil/dark smudge on axle ends. I have pushed all the wheels to one side and turned them, no rubbing, then the other side, no rubbing, then one at a time to each side, no rubbing. Pushed the axle pump concentric to one side, no jamming, then the other side, no jamming, then twisted it both ways, no jamming. Using an Optiviser, I looked over locomotive at every place where a moving part passes a fixed part, not marks. No loose valve or piston rods. Opened both valve chests, no loose “D” valves on valve rods. I cannot find any loose nuts or bolts anywhere. Next plan is to run it on air on rollers, hoping it will jam. 

What’s going to make me real angry is when I do find the problem; it will be something stupidly simple.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan , 
When this "jam " happens , does the loco slow quickly over afew feet or do the wheels lock and slide instantly? 

Gordon.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

The wheels lock and slide instantly.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
Did you look at the piston head? If you took of the rods are the wheels able to move freely?


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't take off the rods, no reason to, they are tight. It moves freely now, I am not able to get it to jam on the bench. It will jam when it runs. Running it on rollers with air may show me how it jams as I don't have to turn off the pressure and I'll be able to examine it while it's still jammed.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not familiar with the Aster water pump system, but is there a ball valve in the system somewhere that could be sticking/jamming because of wear? Does it have a tender pump as well as an axle pump? I'd be looking for some sort of issue with a check valve. It seems like maybe a ball seat is worn, the ball(s) gets jammed, then when you shut off the steam it's enough back pressure to unseat it again?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Cougar, 
I had thought of that, but dismissed it as it seems so unlikely. 
As Dan pointed out, it has done it with the bypass both open and closed, so that takes the boiler check valve out of the equation, so I think that it means it could only be the outlet valves on the axle pump. 
My experience with check valves is that when they are stuck shut, they are STUCK. 
Once they are functioning, and free, I really don't see why it would 'every now and then' decided to get stuck. 
I'm not saying that it couldn't be, but I would doubt that that is the problem. 
Anyone else? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

The GS-4 axle and handpump run as a combined system through the same check valve, so I doubt that the check balls are sticking, or else one would not be able to put water in to start the run. The barb fittings on the flex hoses between loco and tender would give up and the hoses would pop off if any of the check valves were sticking shut. 

Dan, on the pump eccentric strap, does it have a guide screw to keep it straight and parallel with the eccentric cam (I can't remember if the GS-4 does or not)? This may be too tight or loose, causing the strap to go out of alignment and bind the engine under power. I had this happen on a NYC Hudson that does not have the guide screw on the front of the strap, and had to put one in. If the screw is tightened down too much, the strap cannot float and will bind up the eccentric. 

It is also worth a look to be sure the fork joint driving the pump is perpendicular to the track (up and down when viewed from the side) as a little misalignment there can cause some serious binding. 

Do take the front cylinder covers off and peek in while rotating the motion (preferably right after the engine has locked up) to see if the piston head is loose or cocked in the bore. Given that everything else outside seemed to pass with an OK, then my bet is still on an internal issue.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 07 Jun 2011 12:12 PM 
The GS-4 axle and handpump run as a combined system through the same check valve, so I doubt that the check balls are sticking, or else one would not be able to put water in to start the run. The barb fittings on the flex hoses between loco and tender would give up and the hoses would pop off if any of the check valves were sticking shut. 

Dan, on the pump eccentric strap, does it have a guide screw to keep it straight and parallel with the eccentric cam (I can't remember if the GS-4 does or not)? This may be too tight or loose, causing the strap to go out of alignment and bind the engine under power. I had this happen on a NYC Hudson that does not have the guide screw on the front of the strap, and had to put one in. If the screw is tightened down too much, the strap cannot float and will bind up the eccentric. 

It is also worth a look to be sure the fork joint driving the pump is perpendicular to the track (up and down when viewed from the side) as a little misalignment there can cause some serious binding. 

Do take the front cylinder covers off and peek in while rotating the motion (preferably right after the engine has locked up) to see if the piston head is loose or cocked in the bore. Given that everything else outside seemed to pass with an OK, then my bet is still on an internal issue. 
Hydrolock- resulting from piston misalignment or improper length, or from too much water (cool) flooding (priming) the cylinders. Given on and off nature of the lock up, we have seemed to cover the variables from lack of oil to wheels out of quarter along with any "little' things that might get caught in the drive train. Maybe Dan will bring it to NSS and run it to the point of occurance then all of us will probably have the moment of discovery!!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 07 Jun 2011 01:01 PM 

Maybe Dan will bring it to NSS and run it to the point of occurance then all of us will probably have the moment of discovery!!


and I'm sure that he will be only too willing to offer a big prize to the person who solves the problem!!! (One beer?)
The problem will be that he will have to book the track for all day long, and then after four days of continuous running when it has still not locked up, we will still not know what the problem was!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
p.s. NOT long now before Sacramento!


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I will bring it if it's not fixed by then. Maybe put it on the swap table. :>) There is no guide screw to keep it straight and parallel with the eccentric cam. I have replaced all the check balls since this happened. I don't believe that there is a loose piston but I will take a front cover off and then I will be able to say for sure it's not that.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Dan, have you noticed if there is there any correlation between how full the boiler is and the locking up? 

Keith


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Hi Dan,


That was my thought as well. Is there a 'dry-pipe' in the boiler simmilar to the accucraft daylight? Is it picking up water and your getting hydro lock? Just my thoughts......

Steamupdad


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Well, if it ain't the engine ......then it must be the track. Gulp!







And to think, this is the engine by which all others are judged........ headed for the swap table. Ohhhh...Boy!








See you at the NSS.

Rob Meadows


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

There is no correlation between how full the boiler is and the locking up. It’s more of a hard mechanical lock. I thought of it being the track, yea right, but it does it on anyone's track Rob. :>) Yes I will be at Sacramento, if for no other reason than to make sure you all have a subscription to Steam in the Garden.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't have a subscription and I won't be at Sacramento. Name your price.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan
We looked at our Aster GS4 and found very few "objects" that would be a cause for lock up (air pumps maybe but that would be obvious). Looking at a piston, it seems it might be threaded or pressed on but maybe not ping over at the head. Given the axle pump set up the same as the NYC as to the strap and it did the same "lockup" could again be a consideration.

I love a good mystery....


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

If it is the pump, you can know that by loosening the eccentric cam so that the pump will not work, and run the engine. You will have to do a lot of hand pumping, but so what? Run it until - or if - it stops. 

If it stops, I would say it is one of the main cranks that has worn and now binds. If it doesn't stop it is the pump.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, i just got back after a short visit with Dan. 
He and a friend had been having a steamup, and he said that the Daylight had been running 'okay', when it started to run worse and worse. 
Before he started the run, he loosened off the axle pump eccentric to take that out of the equation. 
He can give you more details, but it sounds like after a short while he set it going again and all seemed okay again! 
Anyway, I suggested that we remove the skirts and just check all the external linkages. 
All seems to be in order. 
I then steamed it up again, and it wasn't as smooth as normal. 
Water was about 3/4 full to start and was allowed to run quite low. 
Then I discovered that I could 'make' it do it's jamming, by while it was running in forward, grab the tender and give it a swift pull back. 
This causes it to very definitely be in 'forward' and 'reverse' at the same time. 
All external linkages still appeared to be in the correct position. 
You can gently pull and push the loco and it will try to rock back and forth. 
VERY STRANGE. 
As I have suggested, I am sure that it is valve related, and although Dan has been in there twice already, I have suggested that he make sure that one valve is not somehow slipping back and forth on the spindle. 
How it would do that, I have no idea. 
Anyway, hopefully Dan will find something in there somewhere. 
If not, we will keep looking, especially in Sacramento. 
All the confused, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
I would agree that it might be either a piston or valve situation but what I believe you did was to hydrolock the engine with a surge of water into the dry pipe...


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Charles, 
Could be! 
That was the original experiment that I wanted to test with Dan, but when I could do it with the water barely showing in the glass, I decided that it was very unlikely that water would splash up that high. 
But if you say so, maybe we are searching for something that doesn't exist. 
I must get out some of my locos and try the same test to see if I can make them do the same thing. 
It is something that I have never had a problem with in the 30 plus years of Gauge 1 steaming. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## HeliconSteamer (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan and David, 
Not being familiar with this loco's construction, this is a bit of a shot in the dark. Could one valve spindle be lifting slightly and jamming either in the packing gland or against the front wall of the valve chest? The latter would only occur if the valve spindles extended into a chamber beyond the valve chest. I had a valve lift slightly and jam at Staver last year when preparing to doublehead with Kevin Schindler. The loco in question is a kit built (assembled by me) Roundhouse Billy chassis. It never did this before or since, so I cannot say exactly why it happened. Anyway, its a thought... 

Cheers, 
Paul


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