# WiFi Receiver from EZC



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I recently ordered some cables and stuff from HobbyKing and noticed they sell an EZC-RC WiFi receiver. This replaces your regular r/c receiver in a loco and operates from your iPhone or Android phone.










As you can tell by the size of the pins, it's about as big as a regular recvr. Only 4 channels, and no sign of the supplier's website, so it isn't clear what future this device has, but they are readily available from several sources. Range is supposed to be about 100m for a plane, 50m (150') for a car.

The app for your phone is on iTunes but not on Google Play. However, you can download the Android app package using this link (do it on your phone)
http://www.himodel.com/en/info/soft/icPlane.apk.
My Samsung 5 did the download and then asked me if I wanted to install it. It then said my phone was set to not allow installs of apps that didn't come from Google Play, but I was allowed to override that for one instance. It installed fine. Instruction sheet is at
http://www.himodel.com/en/rc_manuals_url.php?id=408
[Why this stuff is on someone else's site is worrisome. . . ] There is also a car app with a typical pistol-grip picture but i didn't think that would help.

Anyway, I plugged in a battery pack and a servo, and my phone found the WiFi network (ezc rc rcvr.) On the back of the rcvr is an 8 digit code key that you enter to connect, and it did. I then fired up the app:











This is how it looks - I was perplexed for a moment or two, then I realized the two circles with white dots are "sticks". You slide them like ordinary TX sticks. (It can be flipped into mode2 if you want, and the servo movement can be reversed.) The right hand 'throttle' stays where you put it, but the other 3 channels (L/R on the rh stick, and all directions on the lh stick) are sprung back to the center. It seemed to work fine and was operational within 10 minutes.


While it is a bit pricier than other receivers, (about $30) you don't need a transmitter. I'm not sure if it will work for a steam engine if I can't put it in forward or reverse and have it stay there - but my Spektrum stick TX had that for the first couple of years, until i took it apart and removed the springs. (No chance of doing that on my phone!) I wonder what the battery life will be if I have to keep my finger on the 'stick'.


My next loco only needs the throttle control, so i will probably try it. Maybe the next generation will be a bit more configurable, and from a reliable source so we can ask for a train version of the app !


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

What does it work like outdoors in bright sunshine?


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

TonyWalsham said:


> What does it work like outdoors in bright sunshine?


Tony - I don't believe it uses IR, but RF (WiFi frequencies) so sunlight should not be an issue.

I just ordered two - seems to be worth some experimentation as it can easily be interfaced with my PIC and PICAXE and Arduino processors!

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21430__Hobbyking_IOS_Android_4CH_WiFi_Receiver.html 

dave


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Pete,

Interesting - Thanks for posting.

Dave & Pete:

Please keep us up to date.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony meant how well can you see the phone screen in bright sunlight.

Not well, I can tell you, but being white dots, it's probably not too bad. The lack of tactile feedback would be my concern.

Greg


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

That does make more sense, Greg - I suppose that a clever programmer could use a combination of the vibrator motor and sounds to give some useful feedback.

Still an intriguing product for lots of applications.

dave


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Not well, I can tell you, but being white dots, it's probably not too bad. The lack of tactile feedback would be my concern.


I use my phone a lot out in the sun, and while you need to turn away from direct sunlight and find shade, it is easily readable, so I don't expect any problems with this app.

And it does have tactile feedback - sorry, should have mentioned it. The phone vibrates as you move the 'sticks'. So if you aren't looking yu can tell that it moved!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a new DCC system, but it's color, and I miss the high contrast of my black and white LCD.

I also like dedicated buttons I can use without looking at the controller. I have more fun looking at the trains as opposed to an LCD screen.

All of that notwithstanding, it's an inexpensive alternative and the right choice for many people.

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Following the comments, and out of curiosity, I loaded the "car" app to see what it did. 
Ans: nothing much. Both steering and throttle are self-centered, so the plane app works better for a live steamer.

While checking that, I tried holding my thumb on the direction 'stick' and it seemd like it would stay in position as long as my thumb stayed. The vibes as I moved the stick stop when it becomes quiescent.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

In Germany they did extensive tests with WiFi and also this receiver. Transmission was not very reliable with lots of dead spots. A ZigBee network or just our plain old 2.4GHz RC behaved much better.
http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewtopic.php?t=11686
Also it looks as if this receiver has a high current consumption.
Regards


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think this is because it is basically a point to point wifi, not a wifi network. There's no place on my property that does not have good wifi reception, BUT that would mean that the system would be working as a normal wifi network. 

I suspect this system is using "wifi direct"... an answer to the following question will help: once you are "connected" to one locomotive, can you also simultaneously be connected to several other locomotives? I suspect not.

Not a put down on the system, but show the difference between a point to point link, and a network that wifi, zigbee, etc. would use.

Surprising that this is not as good as "a good old 2.4 GHz" RC, since you have the OPPORTUNITY to have the same results, same frequency, and wifi is a more robust protocol.

Again, I'm not putting this down, just making the point that point to point is often best for a controlled distance between the loco and the throttle.

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I think this is because it is basically a point to point wifi, not a wifi network. There's no place on my property that does not have good wifi reception, BUT that would mean that the system would be working as a normal wifi network.


Hmmm . . . but the WiFi source is moving, which will affect the signal seen by the phone. I agree it shouldn't be any worse than an ordinary 2.4Ghz radio. I'm not sure it matters though; at worst, the loco will just stop. I have a DSM2 TX from Deltang with very short range, and it hasn't caused a problem yet (except for tiring the operator who has to move closer to the train to get it moving again!)

Henner - thanks for the comments - wish I could read the thread. EZC Technology (German distributor) is the only web presence for EZC whose .CN website is defunct.
I'm not surprised the WiFi recvr uses more current than a regular one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All WiFi is designed to accommodate moving objects, just like your RC. You'd have to be moving pretty **** fast to affect it (think near speed of light).

Moving causes a much bigger problem, changes in signal strength, multipath, nulls, etc.

But no different than 2.4GHz RC radio, same frequency, in fact WiFi is a much more robust communication system.

I'd like to read the review too, I'd like to confirm the communication method.

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> SNIP I have a DSM2 TX from Deltang with very short range, and it hasn't caused a problem yet (except for tiring the operator who has to move closer to the train to get it moving again!)
> 
> SNIP



Hi Pete.
Deltang have a new RX with a shielded cable long enough for the end receiving part to be exposed to the atmosphere.
You might also try the TX with your hand not wrapping around the case if at all possible. I use the same TX2 module and achieve excellent range. I put that down to the TX2 module antenna being away from the human hand in a larger case.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

HMeinhold said:


> In Germany they did extensive tests with WiFi and also this receiver. Transmission was not very reliable with lots of dead spots. A ZigBee network or just our plain old 2.4GHz RC behaved much better.
> http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewtopic.php?t=11686
> Also it looks as if this receiver has a high current consumption.
> Regards


Hi Henner,

this is only less than 10% of the truth ..!

You need to deploy the proper WiFi technology - not the cheap crap 4,95$ technology, then results are more than excellent. As within every technolgy area - also between WiFi and WiFi there are big differences based on engineering and efforts spent. 
My WiFi loco control experiences are excellent. Have a look at this : 

Locomotive is WiFi controlled - in addition WiFi radio transmission is used for this Model-Railway streamed "cap ride": 






WiFi is (also) excellent for Modelrailway control - proven by the existing WiFi technology in daily life and business (industry automation control)! 
WiFi is the ever most deployed radio technology worldwide and some guys still state it is not usable? Ridiculous!

Just an other evidence:

WiFi is used for Smartphone Servo control:






Have you seen how smoothly it works? 

255 Servo positions between left and right limit can be controlled - definitely enough for locomotive steam control as well! 7 Servos can be controlled by one Microcontroller - also in parallel. 
(Sorry for correction - just have reviewed the code ... -some thousand positions ....)


By the way - this technology is as cheap as excellent - as it is sold in lots of millions. The Raspberry takes ~35$ and the PLC (MC) Servo control behind is 5 (five!) $. In total you spend less than 50 $ for 7 servos! Smartphone noct included - of cause!

ZigBee is much theory - only very few networks for very special purpose are in use - mostly for telemetry (low data transmission) - too complicated for commodity use and not mainstream compatible at all, which is IP-technology, driven by the Internet. 

I know- in theory the ZigBee community states they are compatible ... but you will need a gateway for protocol translation as the ZigBee protocols are not defined in the Internet Protocol Stack ...! And the Internet protocol rules, sombody who will oppose? 

By the way, have you ever seen ZigBee Smartphones? What do you think why Smartphones are not ZigBee enabled - ever thought on?

Regards

Karl


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I think this is because it is basically a point to point wifi, not a wifi network. There's no place on my property that does not have good wifi reception, BUT that would mean that the system would be working as a normal wifi network.
> 
> I suspect this system is using "wifi direct"... an answer to the following question will help: once you are "connected" to one locomotive, can you also simultaneously be connected to several other locomotives? I suspect not.
> 
> ...


Greg,

I apologize - but this all is not fully correct - only small aspects were stated:

1st: You can control in WiFi AdHoc mode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_ad_hoc_network , will mean that you have a point to point connection (link) between ONE Smartphone and ONE Loco which spans the WiFi network.

2nd: You can use the Wifi Infrastrcuture mode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_LAN#Infrastructure - with a Router in the middle of your model railway area which spans the WiFi network for all 254 IP-nodes , then ~200 locos, ~50 Smartphones and more than some thousands switches (signals, sections - if Analog Mode, ...) can be controlled.

3rd: In Infrastrutcuture mode any Smartphone can do control any Loco (in the WiFi network) - but whenever one Smartphone is linked to one Loco, no other Smartphone can detach the link and capture this loco ...! This by the definition of the TCP-protocol (which is a connection oriented protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection-oriented_communication) deployed for loco control. A loco can only be linked if no prior link is established (loco is not linked to another user).

Different for switch control, as any Smartphone should be able to control any switch in parallel, the UDP protocol is used (connectionless protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectionless_communication ). 

Sorry for correction.

Regards

Karl


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl,
your reply sounds impressive, but down-to-earth tests showed reliability problems with locos running away. This discussion has been going on for a long time now in Europe. The argument is always the same: WiFi is a proven reliable technology which should work flawlessly but does not in an outdoor setting. I will try to get some of the independent testers/users to post their experience here. You did not respond to one of the more critical disadvantages of the system: The current consumption of (measured) close to 300mA for the receiver, severely limiting operating time of the loco.
Regards


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

IPTRAIN said:


> Greg,
> 
> I apologize - but this all is not fully correct - only small aspects were stated:
> 
> ...


No problem Karl, always happy to learn, but in your point 1. I'm a little confused... I understand the idea of an ad-hoc network where you can really have a mesh of participating nodes, but the off the shelf access points and routers available to consumers do not support that mesh (i.e. forwarding and dynamic configuration) now... so you can connect a client to something in ad-hoc mode, but I don't believe any of the access points or routers people have would forward and route packets.

2 and 3 of course, that is "normal" but again I was making the point about point to point communications, which is what I SUSPECT was described, and I'm waiting for the answer to my question in my original post. 

Greg


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

Greg Elmassian said:


> No problem Karl, always happy to learn, but in your point 1. I'm a little confused... I understand the idea of an ad-hoc network where you can really have a mesh of participating nodes, but the off the shelf access points and routers available to consumers do not support that mesh (i.e. forwarding and dynamic configuration) now... so you can connect a client to something in ad-hoc mode, but I don't believe any of the access points or routers people have would forward and route packets.
> 
> 2 and 3 of course, that is "normal" but again I was making the point about point to point communications, which is what I SUSPECT was described, and I'm waiting for the answer to my question in my original post.
> 
> Greg


Hello Greg,

you're absolutely right AdHoc is sometimes used ambiguously - so I did - Adhoc definitely can more than a Point-to-Point connection, let's better name Point-to- Point connections correctly WiFi Direct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_Direct

From a technical (User) point it is the same for me - as no extra Router (being the master of the network) is in use.

Regards

Karl


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

HMeinhold said:


> Karl,
> your reply sounds impressive, but down-to-earth tests showed reliability problems with locos running away. This discussion has been going on for a long time now in Europe. The argument is always the same: WiFi is a proven reliable technology which should work flawlessly but does not in an outdoor setting. I will try to get some of the independent testers/users to post their experience here. You did not respond to one of the more critical disadvantages of the system: The current consumption of (measured) close to 300mA for the receiver, severely limiting operating time of the loco.
> Regards


Henner - the problem is most a NIH problem (Not Invented Here ...).
All critisism is echoed by people who 
either have 



already invested x1.000 Euros / Dollars in legacy DCC technology and are scarred that they could have been mistaken in the past or
have already invested in R/C technology (which is proprietary) - but much easier to understand or
are not PC affine - as they have lost connection to this technology in younger years
Definitely the WiFi learning curve is much harder than soldering relais technolgy - it is a bunch of Software & Network technology you need to learn in order to understand and trouble shoot on expert level.


But if you are PC & Internet technology educated - you will sense R/C technology as legacy technology soon - even more as each R/C vendor is selling his own proprietary "standard" stuff and tries to prevent interoperabilty for own business interests.



WiFi is a really worldwide open ISO/OSI standard!



The German "Buntbahn Forum" ist the worst example (see their Preamble: "buntbahn.de Forum für maßstäblichen Selbstbau von 1:1 bis 1:32- )" 

Definitely the members are leading in pursueing the "true scale" idea - but as they state themselves they are not interested in any MC technology or modern electronics. They even direct interested people to other (technical) forums and ask them for migration/leaving! Any new technology contributions are moved into the paperbasket ...! 



300 mA is definitely a headache - I do agree. But by last years evidence - each new year industry is decreasing the loss power (heat), in some years it will be definitely below 100 mA - tolerable related to unlimited fuctionality. But the biggest advantage - the new products will be interoperable with the old ones - still in 30 years - that is the decision factor!



With regard to WiFi capabilities in outdoor settings - Evidence for proper functionality is given by numerous Youtube films - as my streaming Youtube demonstrates above very well! 

Do you really think I am "cheating"? Or I have produced an animated cartoon? In my Cab ride I am WiFi streaming 2+ Mbits per second HD quality from each point of the railway track - without any disturbances - more than 3 minutes - did you realize this fact in my Youtube? Full loco control without any disconnect at any point. I have given evidence! And I can repeat any time!



Best Regards


Karl


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If anything, wireless channel models are better outside. By the way, my company designs and manufactures wireless technology multinode ic's and one of the members of my technical staff knows more about WiFi than probably the sum of this entire forum. You can Google Dr. James Gilb and see his role in the IEEE committees and 802.11 in particular. You can see his CV on my company's website www.pulselink.com 

The fewer reflections the better in general, and outside is better than inside, line of sight better than nlos. These are fundamental and uncontested facts.

Greg


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl,
NIH: are you kidding me: I live in Silicon Valley....
1.Investment in DCC: Yes, I invested about $50 in DCC by designing from scratch (HW and SW) my own decoders/command station. 
2.Yes, I adopted RC 2.4GHz technology soon after it became available, as it completely resolved the problem of servo glitching and channel; selection. I assure you it won't get away any 

time soon. If something better is coming along, I'll jump on it right away.
3.I am not an expert in WiFi, but I know how to press a key on a computer. After many years in high tech development this does not seem like a big achievement.


Here a comment from ateshci, translated and posted with his permission:
> Er hat im Spassbahn-Forum vor drei Jahren das Projekt "WLANCROC" gestartet und als Selbstbaulösung für alle propagiert. Nach einem recht guten Start mit viel erklärenden Beiträgen und auch einer Komponenten-Sammelbestellung der von ihm erstellten Lösung ( einschließlich rudimentärer Software für die Grundsteuerfunktionen ) hat er die Chose mit RasPi neu aufgesetzt und Train-Line vertreibt diese. Seit der Zeit sind die Teilnehmer des ursprünglichen Projekts im Regen stehen gelassen worden - er hat auf Fragen dazu einfach nicht mehr reagiert. Er ist Dachbodenbahner und propagiert wegen seiner Erfahrungen mit Datenübertragung < 5m bzw. LOS bei Schönwetter ( siehe Beitrag von ihm in mylargescale ), dass WiFi das Nonplusultra sei und alle Erfahrungen, die die Unzulänglichkeiten zeigen, nur auf die Dummheit der Anwender bzw. die ach so schlechte von denen eingesetzte Hardware zurückzuführen sei. Ich kann ihn einfach nicht mehr ernst nehmen. Er negiert konsequent die Absorptionsprobleme bei feuchter Umgebung und die Abschattung durch Hindernisse. Natürlich ist es traurig, dass er mit seinem Schönreden 
Erwartungshaltungen bei Laien weckt, die dann real nicht erfüllt werden können.
> 
>i
Karl has started a project named "WLANCROC" in the Spassbahn-Forum (Fun-trains) about 3 years ago and propagated it as a do-it-yourself solution for everyone. After a pretty good start with many contributions to explain the project and after having started a bulk order of components for his solution (including rudimentary software for the basic functions) he restarted the project with a RasPi which is now sold by Train-line(link!). Since then the participents of the original project have been abandoned - He did not answer questions. He is an "attic railroader" and propagates his experiences with data transmission < 20' or LOS under ideal conditions (see his contributions in mylargescale), that WiFi is the best invention since sliced bread. Negative experiences which demonstrate the deficiencies of the system are (in his mind) either based on the stupidity of the users or the inadeqaute hardware. I can't just take him serious anymore. He consistently denies absorption problems in humid conditions and shadowing by obstacles. Of course it is sad that he raises expectations with newcomers by blandishing, which cannot be met in real life.

Your quote: The German "Buntbahn Forum" ist the worst example (see their Preamble: "buntbahn.de Forum für maßstäblichen Selbstbau von 1:1 bis 1:32- )" is almost an insult. These guys (including myself - Henry) build amazing models and want to control them safely. The objective at least for live steamers is to reliably run trains, not using an iPhone/WiFi for control. 

Locos are not a plastic Stainz but scratch built jewels or expensive acquisitions. Control has to be very reliable. On top of that live steamers are a social bunch. They visit each other, have BBQs and run their trains, 
often on a portable layout far away from any electrical outlet. We unpack our locos, turn on the transmitter and are ready to go. I invite you to set up your equipment on a typical layout with tunnels and hills and get it to run reliably within 10minutes.
Your two videos don't convince me:
The first one shows a single loco without many obstacles (apart from the flimsy little tunnel).
The second one shows servo control - so what?
Show us a typical setup with real life situations (multiple locos, obstacles, people moving around, humid shrubbery etc.) and I will be convinced. Why this proven technology does not work reliably under these conditions is not easy to understand, but an empirical fact.
We Americans are a very pragmatic bunch. If something works and is cheaper than the previous solution, it will be adopted.
Oh, and by the way, I pointed out the availability of the hobbyking WiFi receiver more than a year ago! It was then tested by ateshci.
Regards


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

For some reason I can't edit my last message. There are some typos and the link to Train-Line should be:
http://www.train-line45.de/
We don't know how and if Karl is connected to Train-Line.
Regards


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

HMeinhold said:


> For some reason I can't edit my last message. There are some typos and the link to Train-Line should be:
> http://www.train-line45.de/
> We don't know how and if Karl is connected to Train-Line.
> Regards


As we are guests of the Live Steam Thread (with full respect) I suggest to continue the discussion in the appropriate threads, e.g. here 

http://forums.mylargescale.com/66-other-proprietary-control-systems/37226-wifi-control.html

(although WiFi definitely shouldn't be sorted out "proprietary") - but any other Thread Topic wouldn't match better at the moment!


@Moderators: Enventually actual state of affordable powerful WiFi Control technology for Modelrailways has come for starting a seperate WiFi category / WiFi Thread. 

Other posts before can be found here:

http://forums.mylargescale.com/29-b...utomatic-turntable-operation-wifi-cotrol.html

http://forums.mylargescale.com/29-beginner-s-forum/37418-wifi-radio-control-model-railways.html

http://forums.mylargescale.com/33-n...ontrol-locos-modern-non-dcc-technologies.html

Definitely the road capability will be demonstrated at one of the next East Coast Exhibitions in the US. Looking forward to meet you.

The picture below had been shot at the Maerklin / IMA exhibition last weekend: 
The exihibition hall was crowded - nevertheless fully WiFi receiption for locomotive control was given at any spot in the hall - despite "many visitors damping the waves " ... (which exactly other experts deny WiFi suitability for modelrailway control use).

I can state- the opposite is true - WiFi is a proven, ruggedized technology even for industry automation control - why not to be used in Modelrailway Control! By evidence!










Regards

Karl


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The day you solve the problem of the phone screen not being visible in bright sunlight, will be a big leap forwards. Likewise the lack of any tactile "feel" to the various controls needs to be addressed.
Live Steam operators will not want to be continually looking at a screen they cannot see when operating just so they can actually move the controls.

In the meantime, this is a clever idea that may or may not gain acceptance in the market place.
2.4 Ghz stick radios dominate the Live Steam R/C market, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

TonyWalsham said:


> ...
> 
> 2.4 Ghz stick radios dominate the Live Steam R/C market, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


Thanks, Tony - I do fully agree! 
Not at all it's my intention to convince R/C fanatics - as they are already invested - neither DCC ...!

Articles are adressing DC installations /drivers who are starting evaluating new technologies in order to migrate to (radio) Digital at some stage. 

This is still the mass market worldwide > 90% !

Regards

Karl


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

My "Local" H0 club in Brisbane uses WiFi phones to control DCC systems.
It works well indoors and many people use it.
However, that is indoors. The problem with phones outdoors is the screen becomes invisible in bright sunlight.
I wish you luck in solving that problem and then convincing the operators that not being able to "feel" where the control hardware (knobs, switches & buttons) are in the hand doesn't matter.
Perhaps some sort of snap on handpiece that didn't actually use the screen to transmit the WiFi phone control commands would do the trick. Rather, it would tell the telephone what to do. 
You come up with that and you are well on the way to achieving your goal.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

TonyWalsham said:


> My "Local" H0 club in Brisbane uses WiFi phones to control DCC systems.
> It works well indoors and many people use it.
> However, that is indoors. The problem with phones outdoors is the screen becomes invisible in bright sunlight.
> I wish you luck in solving that problem and then convincing the operators that not being able to "feel" where the control hardware (knobs, switches & buttons) are in the hand doesn't matter.
> ...


Hi Tony,

your concern is fully understood! I do agree - still today I own two Mobile Phone - Android and Blackberry. Blackberry for the use of hardkeys to answer mails - the Smartphone for all the rest.

But we have tested several times - if you let children make a choice between a Massoth (DCC) Navigator and a Smartphone to control your locomotives - the decision is always the Smartphone.
For me evidence that we are talking rather on generation habits - than on practical experiences.

Hobby related I prefere graphical user interfaces, rather than hard knobs for locomotive control. I just sweep the surface ... and the next loco is linked. 
At Massoth I have to input a DCC-address first ...! That's legacy for me (personally). 

Trying to follow technical improvements and keep me young on technical progress Sun-light is not my problem - I change the surface angle of my smartphone - all ist fine. Might also be a fact that my Samsung smartphone's brighness is industry leading. 

Regards

Karl


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl.
Might I remind you that this discussion is related to controlling servos for live steam locos.
There is really very little similarity between Live Steam and Battery R/C locos. They each require different approaches to control.
Please try and stick to discussing your projects relative to Live Steam.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

TonyWalsham said:


> Karl.
> Might I remind you that this discussion is related to controlling servos for live steam locos.
> There is really very little similarity between Live Steam and Battery R/C locos. They each require different approaches to control.
> Please try and stick to discussing your projects relative to Live Steam.


I beg your pardon pls. see my post before - I had already suggested to move our discussion to an appropriate section / thread. 

I will return now. Sorry for inconveniences.

Regards

Karl


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

By all means start a different thread for your subject. Proprietary R/C will do just fine.
If you can come up with some convincing arguments to solve the problems outlined when using WiFi phones outdoors in bright sunlight, I for one would applaud you.
Lots of developers have been and probably are still trying to solve those problems, with a so far lack of demonstrable success.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

TonyWalsham said:


> ..
> 
> Lots of developers have been and probably are still trying to solve those problems, with a so far lack of demonstrable success.


Please allow me to send Tim Cook a direct link to your brightness complaint in this thread! 

Best Regards

Karl
P.S.: This is the direct contact https://getsupport.apple.com/GetproductgroupList.action


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sunlight readable screens are very expensive and power hungry.

You need at least OLED support.

My $600 Zimo is just useable in bright sunlight, but it has a set of high-contrast icons for the screen and enough real buttons that I don't need to use the touchscreen for control.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Karl.
we are talking about live steam and WiFi control. So this is the right place for this discussion. Your photo of an exhibition layout looks nice, but the operators are not intermingled with the public, the layout is fairly small and pretty much line of sight. Next year our club (BAGRS) organizes the next Garden Railway convention in Santa Clara, the center of high tech http://www.ngrc2016.org/. You or a representative are welcome to demonstrate the system on an outdoor steam layout with lots of tunnels, cuts and vegetation. There will also be some open minded experts in electronics/WiFi.
Regards


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

HMeinhold said:


> Karl.
> we are talking about live steam and WiFi control. So this is the right place for this discussion. Your photo of an exhibition layout looks nice, but the operators are not intermingled with the public, the layout is fairly small and pretty much line of sight. Next year our club (BAGRS) organizes the next Garden Railway convention in Santa Clara, the center of high tech http://www.ngrc2016.org/. You or a representative are welcome to demonstrate the system on an outdoor steam layout with lots of tunnels, cuts and vegetation. There will also be some open minded experts in electronics/WiFi.
> Regards


Sorry, Henner,

some posts before Tony has advised me the opposite. I do respect minorities - let's wait for an appropriate WiFi section being started by the moderators- time has come. By the way, I haven't started the WiFi discussion in this life steam section, I only felt being invited to contribute ... 

Best regards

Karl


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> The problem with phones outdoors is the screen becomes invisible in bright sunlight.
> I wish you luck in solving that problem and then convincing the operators that not being able to "feel" where the control hardware (knobs, switches & buttons) are in the hand doesn't matter.


I don't see either as a problem. I can read my email on my phone, so I see no difficulty seeing the R/C control app screen. In any case, I don't go out to run trains in direct sunlight - most of my friends in sunny climates have shade! I will be trying it in Florida this winter - outdoors among the vegetation - so I will let you know.
And having knobs like your TX doesn't help, as you have to look at them to see where they are pointing. I don't see these issues as showstoppers. 



> 2.4 Ghz stick radios dominate the Live Steam R/C market, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


Which is a great shame - time you started selling more Deltang controllers! R/C stick TX boxes are big and clumsy - I much prefer my small Deltang unit.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, small is nice...

but...

I want to build a 1/4 section of a full sized Locomotive cab, complete with a window on the side to hang my arm out and a window in front to look down the track... then I want to put one servo control near the ceiling on the end of an 18-inch bar for the Throttle arm and another servo control down near the floor on the bottom end of a full sized Reverser Lever (Johnson bar) complete with notches in a quadrant arc. Eventually, I want to put video cameras in the loco to transmit the view out the front and side windows of the Engineer's side and put video monitors in the windows of the 1/4 cab. I don't think I will go so far as to put install a fan to blow cinders in my eyes, but I do want to get as close as I can to the REAL experience. Tapping a screen is one thing, twiddling knobs and tiny levers is another, but why not go whole hog?


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Semper Vaporo said:


> Yes, small is nice...
> 
> but...
> 
> I want to build a 1/4 section of a full sized Locomotive cab, complete with a window on the side to hang my arm out and a window in front to look down the track... then I want to put one servo control near the ceiling on the end of an 18-inch bar for the Throttle arm and another servo control down near the floor on the bottom end of a full sized Reverser Lever (Johnson bar) complete with notches in a quadrant arc. Eventually, I want to put video cameras in the loco to transmit the view out the front and side windows of the Engineer's side and put video monitors in the windows of the 1/4 cab. I don't think I will go so far as to put install a fan to blow cinders in my eyes, but I do want to get as close as I can to the REAL experience. Tapping a screen is one thing, twiddling knobs and tiny levers is another, but why not go whole hog?


Don't forget a heater to keep things a realistic temperature. Also, you should have a working firebox door connected to a switch so if you don't shovel coal regularly, the train stops


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Haven't seen many layouts all in shade in G scale.

I run sparkies, so maybe I need more from a control system than just run a train in a loop where I can see it all the time.

So, maybe my comments are more biased towards multiple train control, accessory control, many functions available, and the abilty to move all over a large layout and control a loco that I am not close to.

Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

My layout is in the sun, but I run it from the shade, but not sure the wi fi thing is for me, but will keep an eye on it.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

riderdan said:


> Don't forget a heater to keep things a realistic temperature. Also, you should have a working firebox door connected to a switch so if you don't shovel coal regularly, the train stops


Temperature is a very good keyword ... I had forgotten that live steamers are also interested in steam and pressure and other physical sizes back from their loco:

As R/C technology doesn't offer the easy to use backchanneling of telemetry data (pressure, temperature, velocity, ... , you name it, ...), WiFi technology does it at cheapest and easiest:

I 'm just exchanging our home' legacy central heating control unit with new technology - same I am using for my locomotive control.

Extension of course will be temperature control - not needed for electro locomotives. 
I have purchased 4 LM92 temperature IC-Sensors http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LM92CIMX/NOPB/LM92CIMX/NOPBCT-ND/3527040 (4 Dollar each, to be correct LM75 is good enough - but half price). 










As you can see - footprint is very small. 

4 thin hair wires (instead of 8 in the picture) - to clamp on per sensor are the prewired connection. With 4 sensors at one MC I can allow visualizing 4 different temperatures all 500 Milliseconds on my SMartphone Display. 

As a proof of concept (1. draft GUI - lab status - not designed for loco control but for heating control - only one sensor wired momentarily - but value is displayed in all fields):

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/150927/kifxulor.jpg

Sensors for pressure are also available - e.g. this link (industry quality) :

http://www.first-sensor.com/en/prod...-and-transmitters/amplified-pressure-sensors/

As my electronic control ist I2C (TWI) Bus enabled - it is just no more than Plug & Play!

Best regards

Karl


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I got the chance today at Dr Rivet's steamup to test the wifi rcvr, and it worked as advertised. My phone connected immediately when I powered on the rvcr, and the app on my phone allowed me to go do something else and come back without losing contact with the loco. Range was impressive - right across Dr Rivet's layout - probably 200'.


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## IPTRAIN (Jun 1, 2012)

Pete Thornton said:


> I got the chance today at Dr Rivet's steamup to test the wifi rcvr, and it worked as advertised. My phone connected immediately when I powered on the rvcr, and the app on my phone allowed me to go do something else and come back without losing contact with the loco. Range was impressive - right across Dr Rivet's layout - probably 200'.


Thanks, Pete, for the confirmation!

As said before - WiFi is a very reliable as powerfull radio technology - best suited for Model railway control!

Best regards

Karl


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Again,
Dr Rivet's layout is about 3' above ground and all line of sight. The problems crop up when you have a scenic layout with tunnels and cuts, people within the line of sight and lots of plants. If a loco can be reliably controlled on a layout like Richard Murray's (see Garden Railways August 2015, page 36), I declare defeat. On this layout the old fashioned Spektrum RCs with the dual antennas at 90 deg. don't have any problems at all.
Regards


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

*Snap on Raspberry for Smartphone*

I'm reviving this posting, because my own recent reasoning goes in the same direction;



TonyWalsham said:


> My "Local" H0 club in Brisbane uses WiFi phones to control DCC systems.
> It works well indoors and many people use it.
> However, that is indoors. The problem with phones outdoors is the screen becomes invisible in bright sunlight.
> I wish you luck in solving that problem and then convincing the operators that not being able to "feel" where the control hardware (knobs, switches & buttons) are in the hand doesn't matter.
> ...


I think a 3-D printed snap-on or magnetic clamping, external extension for smartphones or tablets, providing physical turn-knob and toggle switches, complementing any on-screen controls, is a good idea, I think. The add-on unit would probably be based on something like the Raspberry Pi Zero W.
Besides problems with viewing screens in bright sunshine, physical feedback optimizes time spent viewing your train! Although one of our members assures this isn't that big an issue.
But i like my knobs ;-)

Just my 2 cents (I love that expression, we only have a negative version in Sweden, "Not worth a single oere" / one cent ;-D )


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but this thread was about wi-fi control vs. model plane r/c control, not really smartphones vs other controllers.

I agree with your statement, but not reviving this thread for talking about knobs and sunlight readable. Tony just jumped in because he hates smartphones ha ha!

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Geezers Greg,
Surely it is about time you grew up. I don't hate smart phones.
I have a perfectly good Samsung Galaxy Ace 3 which I (briefly) considered ending my relationship with as the battery died.
Stupidly I went and bought a J1 Mini which, compared to the Ace 3 I do hate.
The Ace 3 wasn't broke so Samsung "Improved" it. What a piece of crap the resulting J1 mini is.
I bought a new battery for the ACE 3 and normal excellent phone and SMS messaging service has resumed.

I keep hearing about all the wonderful things Blue Tooth and WiFi are going to do for Large Scalers outdoors using a smart phone. So far nothing that works outdoors in bright sunshine has actually eventuated in the market. Especially for live Steam.
I doubt it ever will, and for the same reasons outlined earlier in this thread.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

man it was me you were accusing of not taking a joke. why do you have to escalate a joke into an insult. You don't need to grow up, you need to become civil.

yeah, I would say you are less than enthused about using a smart phone in the sun and I agree with you...

Unfortunately the main thrust of this thread was wifi vs r/c control, so it's all spazzed out and should have been left alone.

just more destruction to what was a good forum.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It's not that they _can't _make phone/tablet displays that can be seen in bright light, it's simply that they don't. Many drive-throughs have LED displays which are quite visible in full sun, as are TVs designed for outdoor use. I'd imagine their power consumption is considerably higher than a "normal" brightness display, meaning they would drain batteries quite quickly on portable devices. 

I tend to agree with Pauli that the phone/tablet would make an ideal "middleman" kind of thing between a physical controller with knobs, buttons, and levers and the Wifi/Bluetooth/whatever receiver on the locomotive. (This line of discussion has a very familiar ring to it...) Having said that, a graphic interface is a great starting point, and saves folks the immediate expense of needing to buy a controller. Have phone, download app, install receiver, run train. Your only added expense in that equation is the receiver. 

I personally don't think the visibility issue is near as big as folks say it is. Many folks' railroads have trees somewhere around them to provide shade--maybe not over the entire railroad, but certainly good chunks of it at any given time. (Some are near entirely in the shade!) I take photos with my phone of the railroad, and I have little trouble seeing the image to frame things up. It's certainly brighter than my video camera display which is darned near worthless in bright sun (which stinks because there's no optical viewfinder). 

As I stated in a similar thread recently, different strokes for different folks. We all have our own personal preferences and unique requirements. If this hobby were "one size fits all," it'd be woefully boring.

Later,

K


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

East Broad Top said:


> It's not that they _can't _make phone/tablet displays that can be seen in bright light, it's simply that they don't. Many drive-throughs have LED displays which are quite visible in full sun, as are TVs designed for outdoor use. I'd imagine their power consumption is considerably higher than a "normal" brightness display, meaning they would drain batteries quite quickly on portable devices.
> 
> I tend to agree with Pauli that the phone/tablet would make an ideal "middleman" kind of thing between a physical controller with knobs, buttons, and levers and the Wifi/Bluetooth/whatever receiver on the locomotive. (This line of discussion has a very familiar ring to it...) Having said that, a graphic interface is a great starting point, and saves folks the immediate expense of needing to buy a controller. Have phone, download app, install receiver, run train. Your only added expense in that equation is the receiver.
> 
> ...


Visibility is a non-issue for modern devices. I have a drone which uses an iPad mini as a controller - it works fine in bright California sunshine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

love to see YOUR sunlight readable ipad.... 

My top of the line samsung phone is brighter than your ipad and I have to shield it in bright sun... maybe huge details are visible...

And OLED displays have higher brightness than lcd....

And, if I am running a train, I don't want to run to the shade every time I want to control it.

So, good enough for some, not for others... Guess I am one of the others.

Greg


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> love to see YOUR sunlight readable ipad....
> 
> My top of the line samsung phone is brighter than your ipad and I have to shield it in bright sun... maybe huge details are visible...
> 
> ...


Whatever works (or doesn't work) for you - I was just commenting on my experience. I also use an iPad pro as a secondary navigation system in the cockpit of a small plane and rarely have a problem with visibility. 

Signing off this thread....

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, have used one in exactly the same situation, and it was workable. But my experience with the same hardware in San Diego is unacceptable in the back yard.

I cannot explain why the plane was acceptable but it was. I can tell you that the back yard was pretty washed out, and an ipad is way too big for me to want to hold it with both hands while running trains.

It can work, but trying to add function buttons on the screen and the difficulty in sunlight makes the number of buttons on the screen very limited to me from a practical aspect.

Now, making a very simple interface with speed, direction and maybe just horn and bell, that even in high ambient light situations is ok... and for guests who just want to run a train, just fine.

I have about 4 cell phones that in combination with JMRI, I use for this purpose. 

But for my personal use and enjoyment, I have LED-lit buttons, a high brightness OLED touchscreen, and a knob for speed.

Greg


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