# Foam roadbed outside?



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

After several false starts, physical problems, etc, I am starting to build my Virginia & Truckee/Carson & Colorado (circa 1881) railroad. It will be a raised
outdoor railroad in my back yard. I have an 'L' shaped space 150' at the widest point and 42' deep. I live in Big Bear City, CA, at an elevation of 6800'. Summer temps normally max out in the mid 80's, although 90+ isn't
out of the question. Winters can be near 0 degrees at times, but not usually for more than a few days at a time. Mid-winter temps average 20 degrees at night. Snow average is around 5-6 feet per winter, but 4 years ago we had nearly 13 ft. My question is: Has anyone used styrofoam insulation board (2-3 inches thick) outside for the roadbed, and how does it hold up? I want to follow the way the Sundance Central Railroad in Florida built their modular RR. I will build the framework with more supports so the roadbed will have ample strength against the weight of snow.
I also plan to cover the Railroad with tarps when major winter storms are forecast. Thanks in advance for your input.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Oooh, another V&T guy, at last!! 

I wouldn't use foam, for several reasons. It might not retain its structural characteristics (under UV) for long periods. However, others will be answer to that point better. Mainly, I'd be concerned about deer and other critters, including myself, stepping on it accidentally: because it might end up being a persistent source of non-biodegradable, lightweight and colored particles on your and your neighbors' property. 

Having said that, there might be a technique to do as you say, but lay a blanket of mortar-soaked fabric (e.g., burlap; see TJ Lee's mountain-building articles) over that. That would give you the benefit of accurate laying out & cutting of the roadbed and using the foam as a template for excavation, and yet seal & harden it afterwards. 

Still, be aware of the affects of frost heave, because that approach might undulate and crack with the slightest freeze-induced motions. Some folks, like me, chose their RB method specifically to counter the FH effects. For me, I chose concrete ribbon; but others seem to have good success with deeply-anchored "ladders." But I'm forgetting, you're elevating it all; what method of elevation? 

My two cents, others will have a lot more experience behind their comments. 

But I wanna see your track plans! Mine is only from one end of VC to the other (Union to the Chollar; however, with dream-plans of going all the way to Carson if I live to be 120 after winning the Powerball next year). I'm only at the stage where track is completed (no landscaping / buildings). So please keep posting brutha!

===>Cliffy


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

*another option*

Hi, 
Check out this:
http://lsc.cvsry.com/POC_Elevated_Benchwork.pdf
TOM


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya ..now we got the V&T..on the East coast and the West coast..
Welcome..oops need name here!!!!

What is your frost line?
Raised, but set in ground or loose on ground?
What is compressibility of foam under 13ft of snow? And your structure...?

I've been to BB once or twice...years ago...
Drop of your mountain ..turn right and go a ways..you'll wind up where I grew up!! T.C.
Your general foot print is close to my n.g. loop in AZ...

Have fun...Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'll see your 2 visits Dirk, and up the bid: I got married right up the hill from Big Bear, at Lake Arrowhead!

And yeah Tom, Richard's "book" is THE classic on raised outdoor benchwork, good on you for getting that link.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Frost Heave, interesting topic. To prevent popping the posts out of the ground dig the post hole so the bottom of the hole is wider than the top. A wider bottom would also be called a footing. Footing prevents compression pushing the post up and out of the ground. 

Link to a Post Mortem. http://www.dohiy.com/2012/11/19/post-mortem/

On the use of foam, squirrels and other wild life like to eat foam. Story, a guy bought a big brand new very expensive BMW. He lived in the Tahoe area. Kept it outside. Squirrels and some other wild life ate all, ALL!!! of the insulation including the wiring insulation and pretty much everything they could, and nested in the car. Car was not recoverable. Insurance replaced the car and recommended a garage. He built a garage with a lot of pest and wild life control built in.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the club members here used insulation foam for roadbed on the ground. He cut it into strips just wide enough to support the ties, but with 45° beveled edges to shed water (and to look like well groomed ballast). He painted it black with Latex paint and sprinkled gravel into the wet paint. At meetings at his house he would be running trains and he would make it a point to step on the track when crossing the very elaborate layout to get to the other side. He claimed he never had a problem with people, deer or other animals stepping on it. I am certain it was on the ground for at least 3 or 4 years before they moved away. The yard was well shaded by lots of trees, but some sunlight did get through in some areas.

I cannot say it was a great material for a base as I only saw it 4 or 5 times, but when I did see it, it appeared to be working for him. (I never had the guts to walk on it like he did!)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok Cliff...next visit to CA...I'll drive to BB...and drive around the lake 3x's....call and raise ya!!

Semp -- "No guts, No Glory"

Chris...your description matches the hole I dig for risers..but the hole and set cement are below the frost line...with the later addition of added dirt fill...effectively raising the frost line...eventually.

I really need a couple g sized V&T cars!!! Ya!!
....Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I lost my High School ring in the snow at BB, Class of 69... anybody find it?

Sealed foam off the ground maybe.... but not here. Critters

John


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## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

SD90WLMT said:


> Ya ..now we got the V&T..on the East coast and the West coast..
> Welcome..oops need name here!!!!
> 
> What is your frost line?
> ...


The soil in Big Bear is EXTREMELY rocky. So rocky a jack hammer must be used to dig a hole just to plant a tree. So I have set 1 1/2 inch pvc pipe in concrete in cinder blocks. They will be placed on the surface. No excavation. Then my 3ft x 5ft modules will be attached to the pvc risers.
Height will be around 40"-48" above the ground. No problems with squirrels and such. Very few here. As for the snow, we rarely get more than 12 to 18 inches at one time. If it were to be more, I would be out clearing it off before it got too deep. My concern is whether the styrofoam will deteriorate just by being outside. The styrofoam will be covered
and not exposed directly to the sun and weather. My property is shaded
by trees most of the day.


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

VT railroad guy,
Your talking about Table modules like 30" X 60" similar to the Sundance right? My concern for that, outdoors where you are, would be lack of drainage and resulting freeze damage. Just my 2 cents but you might be better off with a top surface that would drain better.
Rick


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

VTRRLoco18 said:


> The soil in Big Bear is EXTREMELY rocky. So rocky a jack hammer must be used to dig a hole just to plant a tree. So I have set 1 1/2 inch pvc pipe in concrete in cinder blocks. They will be placed on the surface. No excavation. Then my 3ft x 5ft modules will be attached to the pvc risers.
> Height will be around 40"-48" above the ground. No problems with squirrels and such. Very few here. As for the snow, we rarely get more than 12 to 18 inches at one time. If it were to be more, I would be out clearing it off before it got too deep. My concern is whether the styrofoam will deteriorate just by being outside. The styrofoam will be covered
> and not exposed directly to the sun and weather. My property is shaded
> by trees most of the day.


To answer your question... YES, Foamed Styrene (Styrofoam (tm)) will deteriorate outdoors, even in the shade! First it will shrink in places, like it has melted, then it will get brittle (more than it already is!) and then get sandy and dusty on the surface. It does not "Bio-degrade", but it disintegrates down to small particles and eventually to sand or dust that is not edible by microbes or worms, etc. It is a pollutant.

For use outdoors, it should be covered on ALL sides (even the bottom if not in contact with something to block reflected light, though it will take longer to deteriorate than the top or sides that are in more direct light).

Latex paint will do, but must be complete coverage. (Oil based paint might melt it!)


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

I have not used foam for track bed, but I have used it for structure bases. I buy the blue or pink insulation foam. I always prime and paint the foam (latex only) before installing. I haven't had any problems, yet. I also built a large (17 foot long) viaduct with insulation foam. No problems there either. Hope this helps.


-Kevin.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Rodney has, he's in Kansas.


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## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's input. VTRRLoco18


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