# Mason Bogie operating pressure



## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

As an isolated, inexperienced live steam operator, I am interested in learning what I should expect from my locomotive. You guys are the only resource that I have. It would be great if an Accucraft Mason Bogie operator could give some input, since that is what I am trying to run - realizing that other locos and brands may act differently. When I steam up, I let the pressure build to about 40 psi on the gauge, before opening the throttle and giving it a shove. When it gets going, it runs steadily by itself, except for a minimal incline that I have where it needs my help. My question is, what pressure does your gauge indicate during running? Mine drops to almost zero while operating, and remains there unless I close the throttle and allow the pressure to build up again. Is this normal, or am I not getting enough steady pressure? Does this indicate a leak? My limited number of runs have been without any cars. I have observed a recent video where a Mason Bogie was pulling 12 cars. I don't think I am getting sufficient power to do anything close to that.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Don, 
I don't think that you have a problem with leaks, or you would see steam everywhere. 
I know little about the Mason Bogie, but do know that it IS Gas fired! 
So, are you sure that the gas is turned up enough to generate enough heat when running? 
As you can imagine enough heat to create pressure, will not necessarily be enough to create the volume of steam required for when running. 
I would imagine that the safety valves are set for something like 60 psi, so make sure that you have enough flame to let it blow off next time. 
LIke I say, I'm NOT a gas man, so hopefully others will give you their ideas as well. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Don, if your Mason Bogie runs at almost zero pressure that is an excellent result. This means that you have a really well running locomotive! Once you attach some cars, the loco will need more pressure to pull them but that can either be achieved 1) automatically, as the loco will move slower while gas supply - and therefore the heat supply - will continue; or 2) by increasing the heat delivery by turning up the gas somewhat. Your startup procedure is essentially OK - this is the standard approach to build up the pressure and let go. On my locomotives capable of self-start (all Roundhouse and I think all Accucrafts). I just put the reverser in forward, open the regulator and let the water heat up..., the locomotive will soon start moving slowly, while I watch and enjoy... - the dream of a lazy operator;-))). 
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS I am speaking from experience with other locos, but MB is probably not very different, I wish I had my Mason-Bogie already here and performing equally well!!


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

David, this could be a possibility. I am a bit cautious, due to inexperience, so maybe I am not turning up the flame high enough. I haven't had the steam pressure up high enough to blow the safety valve yet. Yes it is butane fired, and the manual says that the safety is set for 60 psi, and also says that one should let the pressure build to 40 psi, then the engine can be run.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Zubi, thanks! I will try that - put it in forward, open the throttle a bit, see if it takes off by itself. I assume that the "regulator" you speak of is the same as what I am calling the throttle - the gas feed control valve.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Don, I have a San Juan model and made my first runs last week. With the burner turned up enough for a good strong flame at the burner but not enough to blow the flame into the smokebox, I was able to get the engine to pop off. But during extended operation, the pressure dropped to between 25-30 psi while the engine continued to run smoothly. I called Cliff at Accucraft and he said that 25-30 psi was reasonable -- especially when you are using the axle pump to keep water levels up. He did recommend very carefully insuring that all under frame components are thoroughly lubricated before each run.

So try to see if you can turn up the gas a bit and make sure everything is carefully lubed. If you have an axle pump, remember that pressure can drop while the pump is adding water to the boiler. If you are not able to maintain at least 20 psi, then you may need professional help. Also make sure that your burner jet is operating properly.

Good luck,

Ross Schlabach


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

so maybe I am not turning up the flame high enough
Don, 
Just a little reassurance to add to the good advice above. 

You can't hurt the loco by letting the pressure get high enough to make the safety valves 'pop' (though Accucraft safeties don't 'pop', but that's another story.) As it is a new engine, when you try turning up the gas, wait and see what the pressure is when the steam blows out of the safety valve. 

Your engine won't get hurt by trying to operate on too little pressure [or too much.] I ran my C-19 on 5 psi the other day - the gas jet had dirt in it and it wouldn't get up steam! Similarly, Zubi's approach of just setting the Johnson Bar in forward and opening the throttle is not going to hurt anything. However - on an Accucraft loco, you get lots of water and oil expelled from the stack when warming up. Usual procedure to speed up the warming of the cylinders is to open the throttle when you have 20-30 psi on the gauge and move the reversing lever (Johnson Bar) into forward, then into reverse, then back into forward, waiting a few seconds in between moves. The loco will cough water and oil, stagger a few inches, and repeat the cough. After a few such 'clearing' events, it will take off smoothly.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

RP3 - Whaddya mean I might need professional help? Oh, you're talking about the loco. Really, thanks for the input, I appreciate it! I do have an axle pump. I am pretty careful about lubrication. I think I need to turn up the heat. 

Pete, once again thanks for the help! I have observed videos of operators running briefly in reverse and then forward and wondered why. I will do that. I also am curious to see that the safety valve works like it is supposed to.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I assume that the "regulator" you speak of is the same as what I am calling the throttle - the gas feed control valve.The gas feed control valve and the throttle are not the same thing. The gas feed control valve controls how much gas is fed to the fire, and consequently how hot the fire gets. The throttle controls how much steam is fed to the cylinders. 

It's good that you run the fire low as most beginners have a tendency to run it way to hot. If you open the smokebox door and look down the flue while fiddling with the gas valve, you'll be able to see how one affects the other. Finding a happy medium is the goal - enough gas so the loco produces enough steam but not so much that you overheat the smokebox (they used to discolor easily, but that's less of a concern with the new paint Accucraft is using). 

I've only run my Mason a few times so far, but it does seem to be one of those locos that takes longer to clear the cylinders than others. I also use the procedure Pete described of working the reverser back and forth. Mine also had a slight hitch in it's get-along initially, but smoothed out after a couple of runs. 

If gas flow continues to be the problem, you might have some thread sealer stuck in the jet partially clogging it. Accucraft is notorious for this and I had this problem on my Mason. To clear it, remove the gas flow line from the tank and boiler, unscrew the jet, place it against a butane can so the gas flow is the reverse of normal, and push down to allow butane to blow backwards through the jet (you may want to wear gloves so as not to freeze your fingers). Reassemble and all should be well.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

You're right Dwight! A moment of personal confusion, there. They say this happens when one gets older....Of course the throttle is not the same as the gas turnuper thingy...the gas control valve. You guys have given me some great enlightenment as far as what I should look for and expect when I steam this loco up again. I now have some useful information to go by. I do believe that I have been too conservative on the gas feed so far - more thorough experimentation is next. Probably won't be able to run outside for the next couple of days - expect rain turning to snow, so its back to the rollers. 

I sure do appreciate all the help you guys give. I don't know what I'd do without it. I suppose try to bug Cliff over and over again. Thank you!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Don5 on 17 Apr 2011 10:18 PM 
[...] Probably won't be able to run outside for the next couple of days - expect rain turning to snow, so its back to the rollers. 

Don, it seems you are operating in pretty cold weather. In that case, gas pressure may be very low and this could explain low boiler pressure. Try adding some warm (not hot!) water to the tank. Best wishes, Zubi


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Air temperature definitly has an effect for better or worse on the running of the engine. Last weekend we had a fine warm spring day and I had my new Number Nine easily pulling 12 cars around my line







. This Saturday was quite cool and she strained to pull 5 or 6







. Yesterday it was nice and warm and she steamed in high style again!









The warm water around the gas tank trick is very effective. I somtimes have had to add more warm water during the run on cold days.

Have fun with that engine! -- Eric In Maine


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

You can also use *butane/propane mix* sold in camping stores for camp stoves, etc. It does require a special screw-on adaptor to allow fueling locomotives but these are available. The propane has a lower freezing point than pure butane, so the mixture works better on cold days.


Just don't try using pure propane - you could burst your gas tank possibly resulting in personal injury.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks Zubi, Dwight & Eric! The days that I tried my Bogie outside last week were actually pretty mild - 60's. We are now back in a slightly colder 30-40 degree weather pattern for a week or so. This time of year, after a looong winter, I am kinda fed up with cold, and don't wanna play outside. Using a butane/propane mix and warm water in the tank to enhance gas delivery to the flame are great suggestions. I have been using butane lighter fuel so far, but I am still hoping to find a good local store that sells camping fuel at a reasonable price.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Don, unless you are running the engine on a really hot day you will always have to add warm water around the butane tank. Butane will not flow properly even at 60 degrees. I always add water to mine here in Houston even on hot days. It makes a huge difference. Most of us carry a thermos bottle with hot water in it to steam ups when it is cold outside. Another issue with butane is partially clogged jets. You should definitely unscrew the jet and blow it out. On new Accucraft engines I always put butane in the tank, unscrew the jet and open the valve and just let the butane blow out any debris that may be in the tank. Then clean the jet and put it back in. After that I almost never have any more problems with clogged jets.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

unless you are running the engine on a really hot day you will always have to add warm water around the butane tank 

I think it is fair to say that even on a hot day adding water will help. Don - when the butane escapes as a gas to the burner, it cools down the tank. Cold butane doesn't work as well as warm butane. Surrounding the tank with water provides a big 'heat sink' and keeps it at a constant temperature. 

I use hot water when it is 30 degrees (otherwise I use the same water that gets poured into the boiler.) And here's the photo to prove we run in freezing temps: (RGSEast, January 2005?)


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Don, All the above info is good. I would like to add just a little. Make sure the axel pump is not putting too much water into the boiler, that leaves no room for steam. The amount of water injected is regulated with the bypass valve. Also, use only distilled water to warm the gas tank as that water is being pumped into the boiler. The Bogie has very large cylinders and a small boiler so it has to work hard to keep up with demand and you also get a lot of condensation before the cylinders are hot. This is really quite a powerful engine for its size, I can pull 4 Accucraft coaches at a crawl with no problem and it will move along at a good clip when desired. Good luck with your Bogie, it is a great little loco!!


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

This has been a very interesting discussion for a newbie like me! Lots of useful tips that help me understand steaming techniques. Warm water in the tank makes total sense. I never use anything except distilled water - Our tap water here is hard as a brick, and would quickly leave a huge amount of crud in the boiler and tender. Winn, I have noticed all the condensation during warmup, and wondered if it was normal. My MB ran well on the one decent day I was able to put it on the track outside. When running, the steam pressure dial would drop to almost zero, and the loco needed a bit of a push with minor track inclines. I think I need to allow more steam pressure to build. Also, keeping track of the water level in the sight glass was a bit tricky. I still have to figure out the axle pump regulation, but I will need more running time to get comfortable with that. Spring weather here has been cold, rainy with snow showers and generally lousy, which has severely reduced my outdoor experimentation to almost zero. I respect your hardiness, Pete, but standing around in the snow like that shown by your picture is not my idea of fun. I look forward to Summer weather finally arriving here - I don't like cold weather anymore.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Imagine what it was like to run the real locomotives during inclement weather. Half of your body was hot from the firebox and the other half freezing cold. Those were hardy fellows to be sure.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

if your fuel tank has a surrounding 'bath' to use water -i suggest that you start by using warmish water-not hot 

heres what happens 
the water acts as a heat sink-or in the case of butane -a cold sink-becuse as the butane leaves the tank it acts just like a refrigerator 
when you add water to the surrounding bath-the pressure in gas tank rises-sometimes rather a lot 
and your flame can blow out 

otoh-play with this-this may be exactly how you will get more pressure 

i have a frank s which uses a bath-and while i dont have pressure issues-i can tell you that the temp of the bath has the same effect as opening the gas valve 

if you have had very low pressure in the gas tank-you simply arent getting enough heat to the boiler 
i would imagine too that with a water pump-youre constantly lowereing the boiler temp a touch 

so next time-i suggest getting a thermos or 2 -one with warmish-not tepid but about body temp or slightly higher 

and another with almost hot water-then you can try warm -see what happens 
touch in a bit of hot and see what happens 

i can tell you that even in sub zero weather firing my engine-hot water will really raise the gas pressure-sometimes blowing out the burner- 
so you just have to play with it 

theres a nice point where you get max pressure just below blow off-(which is wasting both water and fuel in terms of efficient use) and too little pressure 

as noted too loads make a big difference in required pressure-as do grades-and mind the down grade with good pressure-what just goes up comes down a great deal faster-curves at the bottom of a grade are likely disasters unless you throttle back or otherwise slow it down 

btw obviously, the water bath can use tap water 

how do you like your mason-i really want one and would love to hear from you about how it fires, runs and if there are any steam leaks-or other challenges 

im far from an expert-but what i have learned is that during fire up and coming to pressure-there are a lot things going on-the metal and water are slwoly heating and finding a sort of equilibrium between the fire spot and dispersing the heat through out the boiler
so i understand this is a time for a low to medium flame-as its most efficient at doing this heat up-

then-more or less --as needed to keep pressure-and this is the art -even with butane-of properly and efficiently running a steamer to maximize water and fuel use

if you tend to run short of fuel -i have microwaved the boiler water before adding it -very very hot-use a funnel and pour slowly to avoid blow back-it heats everything up fast and makes coming up to pressure much faster-which i find takes a great deal of initial gas use-

would love to see pics


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

stevedenver, I agree that warm water will help gas delivery to the boiler - just like they say to warm up the butane can before using it to fill the loco - makes a big difference in gas delivery. I have not run this loco as much as I would like to yet, but am extremely satisfied with it! No regrets jumping into this live steam thing. To me, this Accucraft loco is one of the most attractive I have ever seen, and the live steam feature is icing on the cake. It is the only steam loco I have and probably will be for some time. I have certainly learned a lot!


Jeremiah, all my Wintertime history reading has indicated to me that previous generations have survived incredible living conditions. Another of my hobbies is pictured below. The poor slobs that were shanghai'd onto those types of battleships of the 1600-1800's to serve as crews put up with amazingly killer conditions and still lived! I cannot comprehend what it must have been like - Makes us people of the present look like total wimps!




















Photos separated by Peter Bunce, Moderator


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks for the photos: you are right about the conditions on the sailing Men of War - very very hard work indeed! 

he navy here in the UK for all its faults used to feed the men 3500 calories a day, and they used them all up!


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

you know Don-i think the Mason is a gorgeous model 

im giving it some carefule thought today-ten mile or 13 ton shay???? 
im a great DSPP fan especially in the past few years, having usurped my previous love of the RGS 

but your ships....well i would just love to see those too-amazing-ive been staring at the pic for about five minutes-the rigging and sails are wonderful 
great taste you have ! 

my steam guru explained to me that the major issue with warming the butane can is simply it must be warmer than the receiving vessel in order to deliver -the higher temp into lower temp allows it to fill -otherwise, the pressure between the 2 is about the same and no transfer/delivery can take place


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Steve, both locos are really nice. From information I have read on this website, the shay has a bit of an advantage of power, but does not go as fast - apparently just like the real ones. I am just smitten by the awesome decoration on the Bogie. Both seem to be great choices. There is a huge amount of information on this website. 

As for the ships, I have a couple of friends that built these kits, and we get together each summer to sail. One of these guys even created working cannons on his ship - much more talent than I have. We also have an active r/c boat club here, which is a lot of fun. The kits are from Palo Alto, CA - can be seen at www.modelsailingships.com


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Don, those ships look awesome. I happened upon a nice little model of one that someone spent considerable time making and up all the rigging. Got it a flea-market. Sits atop my mantel.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I forgot to mention, the oiler on my MB as delivered did not allow any oil to the cylinders. I losened the gland nut and backed out the adjusting screw as far as it could go without the gland nut falling of. It still got very little oil so I tried to modify the adjusting screw. I got it almost right and then managed to totally destroy it. Now I will have to make a new one from scratch since Accucraft does not have replacements, only complete oilers for $80!! Moral: make sure you are getting oil to the cylinders but don't destroy the oiler!


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

don 
im looking at a tenmile myself-would you recommend the axel pump as a worhtwhle expense?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Posted By placitassteam on 02 May 2011 08:27 PM 
One thing I forgot to mention, the oiler on my MB as delivered did not allow any oil to the cylinders. I losened the gland nut and backed out the adjusting screw as far as it could go without the gland nut falling of. It still got very little oil so I tried to modify the adjusting screw. I got it almost right and then managed to totally destroy it. Now I will have to make a new one from scratch since Accucraft does not have replacements, only complete oilers for $80!! Moral: make sure you are getting oil to the cylinders but don't destroy the oiler! 



You're saying that accucraft will not send you another oiler for free as a replacement to the one that was not working properly in the first place? Have you even tried to talk to Cliff about it? I am sure he would work with you seeing as you have a full 1 year warranty with this loco. My understanding with Accucraft engines is that they all use a lot of oil, so I don't understand this problem you had. Are you simply saying the "adjustment screw" is what was destroyed? Have you also tried to contact accucraft about this item?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 04 May 2011 06:37 PM 
don 
im looking at a tenmile myself-would you recommend the axel pump as a worhtwhle expense? 


The axle pump is a great benefit as the boiler runs dry in 15mins or run time. 

I have been having problems with the jet clogging. I have cleared it about every time Ive run. Ill have to pull the tank and clean with brakeclean.

If you are intererested in the Bogie Id go for it. It is a great engine and wont be made again. At least not for the current price or for a few years. The Shay keeps getting rerun so stock is pretty good.

My friend has the bogie in stock with axle pump if you are interested. Great pricing too!


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Sorry, stevedenver, missed your question........With as little running experience that I have, the dealer (Sunset Valley RR) that I purchased my Mason B from _strongly_ recommended the axle pump for the exact reason that Jason stated - Saves you from having to chase the loco to pump more water during a run. As for your possible Mason B purchase, the price seems to be holding steady at the moment, unlike other Accucraft items, which are jumping in cost - in some cases, doubled. I think Accucraft is experiencing very heavy cost pressures from China labor costs, shipping costs, re-evaluation of the yen, etc, that all small companies are experiencing in this present economic chaos. I really like my Mason B, and have no regrets buying it!


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