# What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First: I had to choose where this thread went. The New Aristo "Train Engineer Revolution" is NOT battery power!

It's an on-board system that draws power from the tracks and receives digital radio signals.


So not battery and digital made me think this thread belongs on the digital control thread, not the battery thread. 


I have to say the "45 Great reasons" that I will love the new Aristo TE system, were interesting, some very good points, some questionable, and some of them had me rolling on the floor laughing.


I have a degree in Physics, so when I read: "The speed of the R/F (radio/frequency) transmission is several hundreds of times faster than the speed of a carrier signal through a track system"

(which I interpret saying radio waves in the air are faster than electrical signals in metal) .... I have to take exception, both move at the speed of light.

Of course if you interpret it that just because the carrier frequency is 2.4 GHz that makes the speed of the commands faster than DCC.... well, you need to look at the REAL speed of the command, the actual data, not the raw "bit rate"... this is of course way over the head of most people, but most cases, you will see that a command is either repeated or has a lot of extra overhead, because ANY wireless interface has more errors than a WIRED one.


(Your 100 base T Ethernet cable moves data over 4 times as fast as your "100 megabit wireless N system" because there has to be so much extra error correction "in the air".

Anyway, back to reality









The new system is coming, and information has been given out to many, so what do you think of this new system?

(for example that it has no interface to a sound system, like AirWire) 


Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Hi Greg. 

Where can one find the "specifications"?


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

This system sounds like its behind the times. Already outdated and not even here yet. Still no match for what is available now. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

There has been quite a bit of information divulged on the Aristo forum if you read all over the place, it's not concentrated. The latest "insider" has more details. Perhaps you have a copy, or a friend does? 

There is not "specification sheet", but by reading these 45 reasons you could derive most of them. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Thanks anyway. 

A pdf copy has just arrived.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

What a coincidence, the email gods must be smiling. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Tony, You mean your not a member of the AC club?? 
Thats funny, during Lewis talk (friday evening at MWLSTS) about the new system it was directed to battery folks. 

Reason #2.
Like the 5470 was built for track power but used by batt on board.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Having had time to glance through the 45 items it would be inappropriate for me to comment about a competitors products.

However I will comment about what appears to me to be an attempt to rewrite history.

Herewith: "42. This is the future direction for Aristo-Craft and this system will get our full support for the future of our company. Our last train engineer was conceived and produced more than 20 years ago and technology has changed and so now have we."

As the AristoCraft® Train Engineer® never appeared until at least 2 years after I released my RCS walkaround R/C system in 1992, it could hardly have been produced 20 years ago.
In fact at the 1992 Nuremberg Toy Fair, having become enthused with my first production units his European agents had on an operating display, Mr Polk offered to make the RCS system for me.
I declined his offer.
It was not until later that AristoCraft announced the Train Engineer®.


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11/01/2008 4:30 PM

The new system is coming, and information has been given out to many, so what do you think of this new system?

(for example that it has no interface to a sound system, like AirWire) 


Regards, Greg



Well, I guess I'm not among the many, so I don't have a clue what we are talking about, other than the vaporware product from Aristo. When I here that someone actually has one and has some results to report, I guess I'll pay more attention. No interface to a sound system? Does that mean that now the only acceptable way to interface to a sound system is through what has proven to be (to me anyway) an unreliable DCC bus? I really don't need the capability to flush the toilet in the next to last passenger car by pressing a button. Bell and whistle is all I need.

(I also happen to have a new R/C system coming: it doesn't need GHZ for reliable operation, it won't cost an arm and a leg, and it will incorporate features no other R/C system has.)


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Ah, here we go again with not only copying and claiming he invented but re-writing history. 
We've been here before. 

Why do you think a certain person announces stuff long before they see the light of day, if at all? 

So he can point back to an "announcement" date to PROVE he was first. 

GG1?


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Tony, it's obvious you haven't yet learned Polk-speak. My favourite was his line about their first live steam effort--apparently it had 'thousands' (sorry I forget his exact number but it was the live-steam equivalent of a lifetime) of hours of testing. Uh huh, yup...riiiiggghhttt. I could tell. Runner up to that classic was the one about the new gear boxes that were like fine jewels. I love it. 

Keith


----------



## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

I read the pdf file but I didn't see anything about the unit being able to transmit 2-way. It would be nice if the loco could report back things such as speed or location. It would pretty much beat out transponding. 

Anyone know anything on this?


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Hey Keith. 

Then there was the loco that would just "sip" power.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Ha ha! I'd forgotten that one Tony. Funny how those very same power-sipping locos now are described as power-hungry arc-causing behemoths that have made this new battery control system the only way to find garden railway nirvana. 

I guess my history prof was right....history really is just an interpretation. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

There is no two way as far as I can determine, it would be difficult, since 2 way transmission requires lower power levels. 

The receiver has outputs for horn and bell, good step forward. 

I was surprised to see that track power was mentioned first, and battery as an alternative after all the battery talk lately on the site. After the tirades about dirty track and dirty wheels, I would think battery should be the focus. 

In any case it works on both. 

To be nit-picky, reasons 6, 16, 21, 22, and 45 all seem to be saying the same thing, and the backlit screen is in "twice" 21 and 28. 

The obvious jabs at DCC are pretty funny, especially about the "miles of wire". I think the person that made that observation has no clue about DCC. He must have visited an HO layout and thought all the wire went to the track, as opposed to signaling or switch machines. On my DCC layout, the switch machines and power for the decoder are drawn from the track close to where the actual switches are. I only have track feeders, and even these are short. I can run the entire layout with 2 wires to the track, but, like any track powered layout that runs close to 10 amps of locos, it needs multiple feeders, every 30 to 40 feet. 

I would say that my NCE system has all the same attributes, a 2 line display, and english prompts for what to do next. It has 4 dedicated buttons for setting up and breaking down consists, so it's very simple. It also has dedicated buttons for all the sounds I use with my QSI, so it's very easy to use. 

It sounds like a leap ahead in terms of convenience, and consisting is the big step ahead I see. 

I would encourage Aristo to produce this with 999 loco capability, not 99. There is a reason for this: to make a system simple, you want to make it easy to know the loco number, so if you only have 2 digits, then you would probably pick the last 2 digits of the loco road number, or the first two. With only 2 digits, the chances of locos with "duplicate" numbers is much greater than with 3 digits. 

In DCC, with 4 digits, you can almost always use the road number as the loco number with no conversion. Memory chips are cheap nowadays, so I would encourage Aristo to make this available out of the gate. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I didn't get the email, but it's really hard for me to see what Aristo is going for here. I use track power, at fixed voltage, and a combination of the TE 75 mhz and QSI/Airwre. What's it going to do that QSI and airwire doesn't do? Why make a decoder/transmitter with no sound, when you can buy one with high quality built in sound?

Also frankly I'm suspicious of Aristo on this. The 75 mhz system works very well, but they discontinued it, and there's no way I'm investing money in a new Aristo system


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

I am interested in what the pricing will be. 

Since I only have 2 75 mhz transmitters and receivers (one is the hote), the 3 amp will be sold with a relay card and I will move on to the next generation if pricing is good. 
HOTE is in a LGB rail truck and fits perfectly in the tool box.


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that there's better systems out now.

Maybe Aristo should stick with eggliners & 'lil critters.

Be kinda nice if they could "deliver" the coaling tower but I suppose that it's under rigorous testing somewhere in the Joisey swamps!!


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

It certainly sounds like a step forward, and may sell well if the price is reasonable. Aristo-Craft has already established a large customer base because historically their R/C products were less expensive and easier to find. I will add a little more on that later.

The 27 MHz Train Engineer is reasonably priced and easy to use. That is why it has been used extensively and almost exclusively in power cars by our club members since 1995. It performed as expected and proved to be very reliable.

The 75 MHz receiver, although reasonably priced, did not perform as expected unless it was used in a tender or trailing dummy unit. That kind of defeats its purpose as an on-board, Plug and Play receiver. The accessory controller was seldom stocked by dealers here and was rather pricey to order in. I finally got my 75 MHz receivers to work on-board by using the advice provided here and building my own Super Socket with RFI suppression components. But most people either don’t have the skills to do that, or couldn’t be bothered gutting a locomotive and building their own electronics, as they are looking for something that is truly Plug and Play. I spent so much time and effort on solving the radio range problem; I never got around to installing my Phoenix 2K2 sound board which I have had for years.

Considering the number of well tested and reasonably priced R/C and DCC products available today, Aristo-Craft is entering a much more competitive market than when the 75 MHz system was introduced. The Internet has now made every manufacturer’s products widely advertised, readily available and competitively priced. It is now cheaper for me to buy a 900 MHz AirWire transmitter, a QSI receiver, and a QSI Plug and Play DCC decoder with sound than an Aristo-Craft 75 MHz system, accessory controller and separate sound board. After purchasing the transmitter, buying the QSI receiver and decoder with sound is almost as cheap as most sound boards alone. Without sound, I personally feel that the new Revolution receiver will not be competitive.


----------



## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Great observations Greg. 

The letter sent out mentioned a lot about attraction to the hobby. I'm only 24 years old and from what I can gather, I'm on the younger side of those in the hobby. On the plus side I will one day be older and perhaps can provide some insight into what people my age might want in a system in the future. I'm not all convinced battery is such a great thing (certainly not bad though) and it seems to me that two-way communication would provide so much more expansion. In fact, one of the only reasons I like DCC is because of its ability to do transponding...at least with Digitrax...which can create automation and interaction with the computer. 

On the other side, this isn't exactly a bad idea for Aristo but it is also not unique. RC cars and airplanes have had this tech for years..well, for the most part. I guess it is about time someone stepped up to the plate. 

Those are just some of my thoughts. I might post something on aristo's forums with a little more detail.


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Paul Norton on 11/02/2008 8:15 AM


""It is now cheaper for me to buy a 900 MHz AirWire transmitter, a QSI receiver, and a QSI Plug and Play DCC decoder with sound than an Aristo-Craft 75 MHz system, accessory controller and separate sound board.""
Paul

Tell me more please. A couple of us out this way are investigation R/C - for the umteenth time - and always get bogged down in 'too much unnecessary information' to make a decision. We're into Locolinc now. Who know where thats going?

I really like the Airwire Tx but will it communicate completely and effectivly with a (non Airwire) QSI on board Rx + P&P decoder and sound board?

Perhaps this is off topic. If so you can contact me off list. Or start a new topic.

Dave W


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Good afternoon Dave!

I have spent the last year researching the AirWire/QSI set-up and have heard nothing but good things about them so far. I pestered Greg Elmassian with so many questions, he directed me to the QSI web site. Since any discussion about a manufacturer’s product has to compare it to the competition, I think this is relevant. 

As I stated in my previous post “without sound, I personally feel that Aristo-Craft’s new Revolution receiver will not be competitive”. I believe that the AirWire/QSI set-up will cost less and be easier to install. The QSI decoder with sound plugs right into the Aristo-Craft socket. The QSI receiver is very small, has a very short antenna, and plugs into the decoder with a thin ribbon cable.

I purchased an AirWire transmitter for about US$200, and the QSI receiver and decoder with sound for about $US220. Fortunately the CDN dollar was at par at the time. Now that I have the transmitter, any future conversions with sound will cost US$220. I would be surprised if the Revolution receiver and another manufacturer’s sound board could match that price.

I began the installation of a lithium-ion battery and QSI components in my GP-40, but our basement is now being renovated, so my train shop and 26 years of other stuff is now packed in the garage. It will be a while before the dust settles and I get back at it. Unfortunately that means I won’t have a chance for a real world trial before spring as winter arrived here early. I may also change my choice of battery packs back to NiMH. The first and third generation lithium-ion packs were problematic and the new ones are expensive. Gee, I hope that flesh rending T-Rex isn’t listening, I’d hate to hear “I told you so!”


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I made the same conclusion as Paul--I can get a QSI card, with high quality sound and control, for much less

Price of an aristo 75 mhz receiver: @ $130
Price of a Phoenix sound board @ $250

total $380 plus the cost of the accessory switch, if you can find one, comes to close to 400 bucks


Price of a QSI card @ $135
Price of a QSI "Gwire" card, so you can run it with Airwire @ $95


total $230

Of course there's the cost of the airwire throttle, which is close to $200, but you only need one.

I have this system in three locomotives now and it's working extremely well on track power


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2008)

vs straight up DCC

One time cost for the DCC gear w/walkaround radio throttle $600

Incremental cost without sound, about $54 (DG583S)
Incremental cost WITH sound, $127 (QSI)


- gws


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

and ripping out all your track and replacing with stainless. 
And buying clamps. 
And burying wires. 
And adding boosters. 
And running power feeds for said boosters. 
And maintaining pickups and wheel cleanliness. 
And scraping tree and bird droppings off said rail.


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/02/2008 4:06 PM
and ripping out all your track and replacing with stainless. Brass works fine
And buying clamps. don't need 'em
And burying wires. done long ago
And adding boosters. just need one
And running power feeds for said boosters. done long ago, but would need just one pair of wires anyway
And maintaining pickups and wheel cleanliness. once year, maybe
And scraping tree and bird droppings off said rail. no problem, but would need to do that with battery power as well

Dave, you and I will NEVER see eye to eye....


----------



## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Prices don't seem THAT bad...

http://www.johnshobbies.com/store/index.php?cPath=23_155

...'course I have no actual idea what I would need, part #'s etc, apart from the Airwire Tx which I have had some experience with. Dose the programming of locomotive functions remain the same as detaied in the Airwire manual?

Another question - and it related back to the topic. The Aristo stuff is 'old technology' in my books but it is just about indestructible. The Airwire Tx has a beautiful operating program but I'm concerned with the speed/reverse control. The Digitrax hand held Tx's are famous for braking down with anything other than gentle usage.

Dave


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Long live RC control no matter who makes it. 
We can all cry about the past or jump in and make the future. 
I'll try any thing for any one and if I don't care for it or it does not meet my needs I will send it back. 

I know of a battery company who wants me to try their newest product, but I was honest with the guy, your price is twice what I pay now. I don't see how he will make it. I don't care about weight, I pull heavy trains any way.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Yikes! I ddn't want to start a track bvs battery vs DCC fight! I was just posting my conclusion that fr me, runing n constant DC, QSI/Airwire was cheaper.

There are a lot of things I like about the 75 mhz system. It's simple, it's pretty durable. It has enough range for my small layout. I was irritated that they dropped it not long after I invested my none too plentiful money in it. But they have to make their own business decisions, and I'm just one guy.

My initial observation is that they seem to be a little behind the curve. QSI really did us all a service, it seems to me, by delivering a system with excellent sound that worked on DC, on DCC, and wirelessly by DC or battery. It's hard for me to see why I would be interested in the new Aristo system, although I did not get the email and don't know all the details. 



If RCS would make it easy to run on track power, I'd be happy to give them a try


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Mary it sounds like you need to stick with battery and forget about any other system. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

The thread is about people's impressions about the new Aristo system coming out, which can run track or battery. 

DCC vs DC vs battery is getting boring... 

I had a "hidden" agenda here, I was hoping that people's opinions could help Aristo make this a successful product, and help them see if there is something "missing" in the new product offering. 

My opinion is that they should have: 

1. had 999 or more loco numbers to make the system easy to use, so you can use the road number on the loco as the loco number 
2. they should have had more than just the front and rear light outputs, they should have had at least 2 more outputs and one should do ditch lights. 
3. they should have made the system integrate with a sound decoder, not just a bell and whistle output, but just like AirWire did, be able to control ALL the sounds on a modern sound board. 

My opinion is that since Aristo comes out with a new system every 20 years, this one will be behind the times when it is released. 

I am hoping to give them feedback from others, not just myself, who is now persona not grata because I am too critical. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

I reviewed the “45 Great Reasons Why You'll Love The New 2009 Train Engineer, "Revolution" article again and these drew my attention.

6. You do not need CVs or other codes to memorize as all functions are available on the screen in simple English text. The manual is for familiarization and not something you need to take a course on.
OK! After being frustrated with the Digitrax manual for my On30 layout, I like the sound of this.[/i][/i]

12. 5 Amp continuous power capabilities and 8 Amp peak power in the receiver.
That appears to be a couple of amps better than my QSI decoder[/i].[/i]

19. There will be a 10 function accessory serial board for sounds or other triggers and it can be daisy-chained for an unlimited amount of functions.

26. Outputs for bell, whistle or horn, smoke and lights are already on the receiver board.[/i]
[/i]
Does 26 mean the decoder will trigger the bell, whistle or horn, smoke and lights; and the accessory board in 19 is just for additional requirements?[/i]
[/i]
32. The chance of two system units being on the same frequency is one in several million, so any number of people can operate simultaneously at a club.
I like this![/i]
[/i]
36. In our system you can copy one entire locomotive’s settings to another and change names only to save setup time and to be sure that MUed locomotives are synchronized in all settings.
I like this, but as my DCC manuals are buried in the garage, I don’t know if this is unique feature or not.[/i]

40. 50 locos or accessories can be easily expanded to 999 with the addition of a plug-in memory chip. To be available at a later date.
Most DCC systems already have better than 50 choices, and I don’t like the “[/i]To be available at a later date” caveat.[/i]

38. Momentum and reverse delay settings are easily settable on the screen display by percentages, not codes.
I like the sound of this as I use the reverse delay a lot while switching during our railway operations. However I have never changed either the momentum or reverse delay once it was set. I hope this performs better than the promised but non-existent momentum and reverse delay on the 75 MHz receiver.[/i][/i]

41. All installations on Aristo-Craft locos are typically plug and play only....
So I can have a Plug and Play receiver/decoder and attach an aftermarket sound board, or have a QSI Plug and Play decoder/sound board and attach their receiver with the cable included. Mechanically one is just as easy as the other, but price will make difference to me.[/i]

45. Finally, the use of the “Revolution” Train Engineer is user friendly, logical, intuitive and does not require any computer or technical expertise. If you can use a cellular phone, you can
run your trains successfully with the Train Engineer.[/i]
Oh, Oh! I haven’t learned a fraction of the functions on our portable phones, and can’t read the screen on most cell phones.[/i]


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The higher amperage sounds good, and I'd like to dispense with entering CV numbers


----------



## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

my question is does it send the trigger info more then once ?

with dcc the info to run the loco is being sent all the time with a radio it is not and so if it misses what you asked it to do then you have to ask again .....with the old system it seamed like I was always having to get closer or push the buttion over and over to make something happen 


or are they hopeing that by being digital it will see it better and not miss the event ?

also the picture of testing is in a room with new track and not more then 20 ft away I do hope it is tested in the real world at 200 ft with several running at the same time .....


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Scott, do you mean by trigger, the control of the outputs for horn and bell? If so, it must be continuous at least for the horn, maybe on and off commands for the bell. 

On the frequency issue, I believe they probably will get pretty good range, as long as there is nothing else on the same frequency band. Even though there are different channels (and it's NOT a million) 

The ISM band SHARES the frequency band with 802.11 (your wireless laptop and base station), your bluetooth headset, and your microwave, and 2.4 GHz cordless phones. Any of those could affect your range. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This just keeps on getting better:

"The reason for the pull back on th 75 mghz, was the un-availibility of needed parts on that frequency. We follow the phone market's ability to drive down prices and thus the 2.4 Ghz version. If you have friends in the model field of r/c cars, boats and planes you will see that even that huge field moved to 2.4 ghz. It's worldwide in usage and not specific to the U.S. and does not require a licencse as some other frequencies did.

Another key point is that it has *more than back emf* and has full 2-way communication,so there is total control from the loco back to the transmitter. It's a twenty first century solution and the concept is what is taught in engineering schools today. 

We made this item in Korea, where so many phones are made and the defect level is one in a thousand. Of course, 90% of the features may only be used by 10% of the people who just want to push a button and have the trains run. It will do that too, but we're hoping to bring new customers into the train market with this approach. Look at when any teenager can do with a wireless phone today and some other people just want to answer a call. 

It will allow add on accessory units,* so an unlimited amount of sounds, lights and accessories can be controlled from the transmitter*. 

I personally use a top notch phone and believe that once understood the "Revolution" will find a niche market. *It will do more than DCC and will do it our of doors in our difficult track environment as well. *We have just one working model today and will have 6 next week to write the manual with. Then we will have 100 for field testing and by February we will have full stock. 

You will hear a lot of negatives from competition that do not have a clue about this technology, but we have done it and the market will decide soon enough.

All the best,
Lewis Polk"



Well, I wonder what "more than back emf" means? This will indeed be news.

An unlimited amount of sounds, lights and accessories.... ??? The Aristo article posted clearly indicates the limits on number of locos and accessories, and it is, sorry Lewis, way less than DCC systems. (My DCC system supports 9999 locos and 999 accessories). His statement is in direct conflict with the facts provided on the system before.


IT will do more than DCC? Great! Seriously, I understand hyping up your new product, but I really want to see these statements proven.... 

I think the people drinking the KoolAide this time are in trouble...


Regards, Greg


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The thing I see happening here is people again will be mislead as to what the system can really do. Some more unhappy campers. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

OK, so there is more hoo rah on the Aristo site, and I cannot comment there... being banned. 

But I think people are getting at least confused, if not downright mislead (by ventilators). 

There were a lot of claims... one is that it will "do more than DCC", and one Aristo forum member had the temerity to to actually ask someone to prove it. 
"Lewis made the statement in message #23 that the new system does more than DCC. 

PROVE IT !!! " 
George Adams, the customer service manager said to cool it: 
"Play nice or you will get a time out. Bob, this is NOT DCC I'm not sure how much plainer I can get." 


OK, it's not only *NOT *DCC, but so far it is NOWHERE NEAR DCC in capability. That was a statement I took great exception to, even before it was published, just like the "miles of wire in an HO DCC layout". 

Also, many people are confused. 

THERE IS NO SOUND IN THE NEW ARISTO SYSTEM. 

It has 6 inputs that can be remotely controlled to "trigger" a sound board, like the trigger inputs on a Phoenix. 

There is no "integration" with any sound card. You wire up a sound card trigger to a wire on the Aristo receiver and that's how you do it. 

I have a manual on the system. Questions will be answered objectively. You will not get a time out if you ask anything.









Regards, Greg


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Has any one see the post on Aristo about the the Revolution TE. He mentions about all these wires that you need to have hooked to operate DCC . Don't think so. All you need is two wires hooked to the rail just like DC. When it comes to reverse loops its simpler than just plain DC. Lewis again is mistaken for the requiremnets for a programing track. Almost all modern DCC decoders do not require the use of a program track. Lewis says that his system is better becuase you can set the system from 0 to 100% and DCC can set 127 steps and DCC lets you set aceleration and decereration independlety. 

After Reading Lewis post on what the reveloution does it seem to me that DCC is still out ahead. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

It's really getting silly. The system should be advertised as an enhanced version of the Aristo TE with some more features. 

How 0-100% setting of a momentum becomes "infinite" or how DCC takes miles of wiring. I cautioned Lewis months ago when he had me review the sales stuff.... 

Lewis: Your system under track power CANNOT HANDLE REVERSING LOOPS, on DCC, the unit that takes 2 wires in and 2 wires out (SIMPLE) is called an autoreverser, and it's $45, and no one needs to know how it works. 2 wires in and 2 wires out. This "miles of wire for DCC" is really not true, and deceiving! 

This system is NOT MORE than DCC, and it never will be. Sell it for what you wanted in the first place, an updated TE system with more features. 

Sheesh... 

Greg


----------



## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

I am looking forward to potentially using this new system. I've tried the old 27MHz TE and while it worked, it's range was very poor. Next I tried the Bridgewerks URC-15 and RC-100s and again ran into range issues and defective units. I then tried the Airwire system and had my best sucess todate although it's is still not totally reliable (press a button and sometimes nothing happens). My latest foray was to try the Airwire with the QSI card (and my first attempt at DCC). DCC is great and very capable, but for some reason the QSI cards seem to loose their memory and your have to reset the card. 

All I want is a system that is 1st and foremost RELIABLE, is simple and doesn't take a programming track and special software to work, has great range, can handle both track and battery power and is reasonbly priced. Maybe I'm asking too much, but I've never had anywhere near this type of difficulty in the RC world (cars and planes). If the new Aristo system is based on the car/aircraft RC world, I want to learn more, hear what others have to say and potentially try it.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

You are actually sort of asking too much. 

ANY wireless system is less reliable than a wired system, including cell phones, cordless phones and computers. 

Added features cost money. 

Yes, you have not had anywhere this kind of problem with airplanes and rc cars. Of course your RC car antenna is inside the shell right? Oh, it's a long whip? Hmm... The range is great on an airplane way up in the air with no other objects around, nothing to reflect on or obstruct? 

So we try wireless with ribbons of metal, electric motors, internal power supplies, and more... it does make it a different and more difficult animal. 

The new Aristo system is not based on the proportional transmitters from the RC world, it's got a wireless networking protocol called Zigbee as the transport. 

Also, for comparison, probably do not have a sound system, amplifier and speaker in your RC car or plane. 

Not trying to give you a hard time, helping you make your comparision and expectations reasonable. R/C trains are tough. 

If you want something simple and don't need all the bells and whistles of DCC, get the RCS system, simple, inexpensive, and the entire inspiration for the orginal Aristo TE systems. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

The stuff I use is reliable. 
Has been for the 16 years I have been using it. 
Or, I wouldn't be using it.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
For anyone wondering how simple the RCS system is to operate, they might like to visit the RCS website and try out the interactive features here:

http://www.rcs-rc.com/index.php?page_id=1106&PHPSESSID=o2k7vs2ut6uye3cssxh43nnreiwf8awk


----------



## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

I just wish they'd have made a quarter-size 2 or 3A RX for the 27MHz system


----------



## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

...Tony, can't you do some reverse engineering and build one for us?


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Lewis just posted the prices they are aiming for on his forum

$210 for the tx and rx together 

$81 for the RX alone
$61 each for the RX in packages of six 



Those are very good prices, although it's not clear yet what the thing does or how well it does it


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Still does not give you sound so now add it in to the cost of the system.. Now it gets pricey. Later RJD


----------



## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

At those prices, a receiver and one of the new Phoenix sound systems would cost the same as an AirWire and P-5. I have gotten used to having the ability to add function decoders to the engine to provide features like firebox flicker, ditch lights, strobe lights and MARS lights. How would you do that with the new Aristo system?


----------



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Hi All, 

Pricing for the new Aristocraft RC / DCC battery thing "Revolution" has been tentatively announced. Sounds like it could be promising? Since I may be one of the few here that hasn't been banned from that forum I figure I'll paste what I copied from Lewis polks post at the Aristo forum. 

Dear All, 

OK here are the prices. The set will sell over the counter for $210 with one tx and one rx + a plug for non-Aristo locos and the smoke system. Exta rx's are individually $81 or in a 6 pack $61 each. 

Remember you don't need track power boosters, a base station or an add on cab control. However, it depends on the dollar somewhat and if there are major changes in the dollar strength the prices will reflect those changes. 

All the best, 
Lewis Polk


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Just got my advertiser's copy of the Feb 2009 Garden Railways. Aristo-Craft has the back cover. I've got to admit, it looks pretty nice (from a photo of the Tx anyway). What amazes me, is you go to the home page of their website, and apparently it isn't even worthy of being in the "news". They say in the ad "goto LSOL.com/aristocraft to see the video". Going there, you get a greeting inviting you to join LYSOL. Great way to distribute info Lewis! If you want me to buy this thing, show me the operator's manual and a real spec sheet first.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

I'm definitely interested in AC's new system. I want track power, not batteries. And I want something that's simple to install and easy to use. I'd also like to be able to add sound eventually. So far, the "Revolution" seems like it might fit the bill.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Ray, if you are not adding sound now, I would skip the Aristo unit, since it just has trigger inputs, i.e. switches to ground. In a couple of years, I predict that this type of sound board will be pretty much extinct, while the mainstream will be using DCC units. AirWire has the right idea on how to interface to a large number of available and inexpensive sound units. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

If one would only look







 into the high-tech world, one would get plenty of examples were proprietary solutions were rejected by many.







  The purpose of standards is to have more - not less. 







The historical success of the IBM PC was its open architecture - hence many add-on companies build accessories.  
 
In the modeling world DCC became that standard and it benefits all of us.







  We can choose low-end manufacturers  and high-end manufacturers, there are many options.  A common bus architecture is excellent and enables us to do many things.
 
I agree the new Aristocraft Train Engineer is truly a revolution - in more than one way







:
-  Compared to the 1960s technology of the old Train Engineer it is
-  It is also a revolution against a high sophisticated standard for electronic train control (DCC)
 
However, many revolutions - so history teaches us - backfire.  The consumers have the freedom to vote with their pocket book







and if the Revolution means the abandonment of the old train engineer I am more than certain that the Revolver is shooting into the foot.(pun intended)


----------



## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Airwire T9000 throttle, QSI, and G-wire,or the oem airwire receiver if you have the buck's is the way to go! Forget the rest. Simplicity, cost factor, reliability, theoretically can run 9999 trains from one throttle, 3-4's plenty for me. View and hear it running at http://blueregal.angelfire.com/ click on the you tube or vimmeo links, and watch and hear! See and hear a sound comparison between QSI sound and Phoenix there also. Follow me into the "Promised Land" Hee hee LOL the Regal that's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.







Airewire throttle around $199+ first time investment then $223 each engine thereafter.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I can do a loco with QSI for $127 using DCC does not take long at $96 difference to pay for the DCC system. Later RJD


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Ray if you want simplicity it's hard to beat QSI with either Airwire or DCC. Plug and play, full, sophisticated control of the sounds, no need for chuff sensors or complicated wiring. I started with the 75mhz. TE and bought one Phoenix card. It's a great soundcard but I had to wire power to the card, then attach magnets to the axle and the reed switch to pick up the magnets and trigger the chuff, and then an extra accessory board if I wanted to trigger the sounds on the fly. When Lewis first announced the new TE, I simply could not believe it did not have integrated sound. I mean, I'm sure it's revolutionary and has some great features, and I look forward to trying it. But not having sound is like a Prius without a radio. It's just odd--QSI's approach is SO much better, and cheaper. If you want sound with the new TE, you'll have to drop a bunch more money.


I use QSI/Airwire with track power--not DCC over the track, just straight DC on the rails. The Airiwre throttle sends DCC commands to the Gwire receiver, which sends them to the QSI decoder. The QSI/Airwire is an excellent system--fun and reliable. Today I ran a RS-3 and noticed how the sound of the engine changed under load; I set the maximum voltage so kids can't run it at 200 mph and I played around with the acceleration and deceleration rate. I set the regular volume and the mute volume, so I could run it loud or soft. I turned up the sound of the air brakes while leaving the other engine sounds the same. It's a blast. And even with the GWire card it's still cheaper than buying the new TE and a sound card


As RJ said in the long run, if you are going to have a lot of locos, DCC is cheaper, because you don't have to buy the Gwire card each time. If a full DCC system is let's say $600 bucks, that's the same as adding the Gwire to about seven engines. I'm thinking about going to DCC, but I'm also thinking don't have room for or really a need for any more locos.



The advantage of DCC being a standard, and not proprietary, is pretty clear for me. If I were to go to straight DCC, I could keep all the QSI decoders and sell the Gwire cards. I could keep the Airiwre trottle and add Airwire's DCC components. Or I can maybe find a way to use the Airwire throttle with another company's DCC. I won't be stuck with a proprietary system


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

By the way Mike, try increasing the momentum settings, that will make the "sound under load" even more pronounced. I usually use cv4 about 1/2 of cv3 so stopping is easier to "predict". Try cv3 up around 40 for grins. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice tip greg! I just tried it, works very well. Thanks. It's so much better when the chuff changes like that, gets rid of the "machine gun" effect


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

I have some info that will make it even better. There is a new firmware release in the works, that will really make an improvement on the machine gun effect. 

The basic problem is, so far, all sound systems use only one "chuff" recording, so to make it sound right at low speeds, it's a nice long (in time) sound. 

At higher speeds, the length of the sound byte should be shorter, but all systems I know of just put out the same sound at a higher repetition rate. 

QSI will be changing this to effectively shorten the chuff "length" at higher speeds, so low speed will still sound great, but higher speeds will be shorter, thus more "distinction" between chuffs. 

I'll inquire as to when this is coming out. Of course it will be just a firmware update you can do yourself, no hardware changes required. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's good news--I've been annoyed at the steam sounds, in both QSI and Phoenix. The QSI sound for my RS-3 is just great in every respect, but the chuffs in steamers tend to get annoying for exactly the reason you're describing. If they could shorten the period of the chuff, along with the changes in volume and "attack" they already have, it'd be fantastic. I need to send them an email, but then to release the new sounds and the firmware upgrade


This is where QSI is really onto to something new. It looks to me like the new TE is an impressive system, but they really missed the boat not incorporating sound


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Yep, told Lewis that in 2004 when we started talking about the new system. There's some more history about this, but I won't drag them though it again, coming out with the new system without a plan to integrate commonly available and inexpensive (but high quality) sound systems would have been ok in 2000-2002 when many people did not want sound systems. That's no longer true. 

Drop the QSI Solutions guys an email telling them you are anxiously awaiting the improved chuff and more sound files (actually they are updating the sound files to better quality).. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I would like to assert that in terms of good sound ZIMO took 2 years ago already a leadership position. TrueSound-DCC with MX690 (starting at $195 DCC + Sound by the way) avoids all of the above chuff problems. Chuffs are handled in two channels of the 4 parallel channels. Depending on the locomotive type you can control how many chuffs per revolution (e.g. 4, 6, or 8) should occur. Regular locomotives have 4 chuffs and each chuff is recorded as a separate sound sample. 
Then the chuffs are played in the following way: chuff 1 in channel A, chuff 2 in channel B, chuff 3 in channel A, chuff 4 in channel B and so on. This allows to mix chuffs into one another. In addition the ZIMO offers that you can declare a "leading" chuff whose loudness can be independently controlled, so that it will sound louder.

The K27 TrueSond DCC project uses 4 chuff recordings, and for the slow down 4 separate "clanks" in sequence. The upcoming TrueSound-DCC Heisler project uses also 4x4 chuffs and 4 "sniff" sounds for the slow down.

Additional controls in the ZIMO decoder allows to correlate the loudness of the chuffs to the forces used by the motor in the model. 



I have a customer who told me that the K27 sound is the best sound he has heard in all the sound electronic in our market. I personally can't judge since I am predominantly an electric loco junkie (modeling the RhB) but I can determine that the steam engine sounds are definitely not sounding like machine guns, as I have heard many. The TrueSound-DCC projects have been developed by Heinz Däppen some of you might know. He is member of the Swiss US steam hobbyists club and some of you might have corresponded with him. All the above information is from him - and you guessed right so are the TrueSound-DCC projects. His affiliation to ZIMO come only on the heels of the fact that he finally found a platform (MX690) that allowed to create in endless hours projects that were equal to his high demands.

Heinz is one of us - one of the most sophisticated and demanding modelers - why? He has a degree in Physics which laid the foundation for his knowledge in electro acoustics and recoding technologies. As a son of railroad employee it is quite natural that anything that has to do with wheel flanges is part of his DNA. He started already in his teen years sound recordings, studio work with bands, and recording classics in CD quality. He has extended experience using Remix software and PC technology.

And this is Heinz:










Of course I found that the electro engine's sound project exceeded my expectations as well.
Those who are interested to hear any of this are more than welcome to contact me.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/26/2009 12:46 PM
I have some info that will make it even better. There is a new firmware release in the works, that will really make an improvement on the machine gun effect. 

The basic problem is, so far, all sound systems use only one "chuff" recording, so to make it sound right at low speeds, it's a nice long (in time) sound. 

At higher speeds, the length of the sound byte should be shorter, but all systems I know of just put out the same sound at a higher repetition rate. 

QSI will be changing this to effectively shorten the chuff "length" at higher speeds, so low speed will still sound great, but higher speeds will be shorter, thus more "distinction" between chuffs. 

I'll inquire as to when this is coming out. Of course it will be just a firmware update you can do yourself, no hardware changes required. 

Regards, Greg



I just emailed Tony, he said, and I quote:

"Appreciate your comments.
Several months for upgrade"

I'll be looking forward to it


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Good, now I'll bug the heck out of them for a beta version! 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Greg and others, I'm not sure if it was posted but the ovgrs has a page with the install and programming of this system. It seems very informative. T.Foley had replied to my question on the Accucraft Allegheny and his page link to the club.
http://www.ovgrs.org/ 
Joe


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Thanks Joe. 

Actually that's pretty basic information, I've been involved in the documentation and operation of this system since 2004. The questions I have asked are still unanswered in terms of multiple cabs, copying information and some consisting questions. 

The stuff on that site has actually been posted in several places, and it's basically from the manual. 

Paul Norton (of that site) has many other posts and threads on the system. 


The install is simple, like a QSI or other plug and play unit in an Aristo loco. (although you still have to hardwire a sound unit).

Regards, Greg


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Ok, I just scanned the more recent comments on this thread and I ask if any MTH/DCS PS2 buff has chimed in on this conversation? 

gg


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 01/30/2009 5:24 PM
Ok, I just scanned the more recent comments on this thread and I ask if any MTH/DCS PS2 buff has chimed in on this conversation? 

gg


Why drag DCS into a Aristo thread


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 02/01/2009 9:17 AM
Posted By GG on 01/30/2009 5:24 PM
Ok, I just scanned the more recent comments on this thread and I ask if any MTH/DCS PS2 buff has chimed in on this conversation? 

gg


Why drag DCS into a Aristo thread












Good point !


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

On the TE system, the latest news had me laughing so hard, it's taken a couple of days to calm down! 

You have to read the post on the Aristo forum yourself to make your judgment. It's the thread on "T.E. Revolution MU. 

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=13564&page=9

So, the new TE is delayed because they have to have the receiver FCC approved (because it also transmits).

Of course there is boasting one sentence later that "we have received dozens of FCC approvals over the years and this will be the easiest."

ha ha ha ha!

So the news is that either:
[*]Aristo "forgot" to get FCC approval [*]were trying to slide by without approval [*]or actually failed FCC testing [/list] There's really no other choices. 



Since the system has been in development since at least 2004, how in the heck could anyone "forget" to think about FCC approval? Unthinkable. In my years of electronics development, about half of it has been with devices that needed FCC approval. FCC approval is always uppermost in your mind, because if you fail, you could be forced to redesign something at a fundamental level, very expensive. If an engineer did not "think" constantly about FCC approval with every part of designing, he would be fired as incompetent. This is a wireless bidirectional system.


Possibly they failed their first test, but it does not sound like it, but read the post to make your judgment.


If I had to guess, I think someone "conveniently forgot" to submit the on board receiver, and the FCC noticed and said "hold on, not so fast!".


In any case, what a goofup, no matter what the reason.


Makes you wonder.


Regards, Greg


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Funny... yes,,, 


oops...


----------



## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, And your point is??? Other than you want to rub Aristo's nose in the fact they made a mistake that will cost them some money and time?

Ed


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Seems like aristo makes a lot of mistakes all the time with just about everything they produce,but some people tend to over look that cause they have nothing better to do but to kiss BUTT.................. just an observation mind you...








Welcome home Lewis, great to have you back from Germany.....


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By eheading on 02/11/2009 6:40 PM
Greg, And your point is??? Other than you want to rub Aristo's nose in the fact they made a mistake that will cost them some money and time?

Ed













Gents,* my sincere apologies *for inflaming the issue with my cute & liberal remarks. 

This is not an issue re rubbing noses, however my read on a simple "take" on symptoms as it applies to QA and QC and this as it applies to any given Company in this type of business. (or would be otherwise) 


Put simply... ALL Manufacturers that we avail ourselves to in the 21'st Century ARE GOOD... or simply would not be there. OK... AC, Accu, USA, MTH... ASTER.... I wish I could own one of each... (bias... must be retro's to DCS...







)

However, based on my time with this forum, short as it may be, there are defined camps and defined experiences. 


MY TAKE: 

*NO manufacturer is perfect... ALL have faults. 
*

*WE, as a group do not have the right to criticize the choice of other forum people re their choice of technology. *

*WE, as a group do not have a right to condemn a Manufacturer based on our simple experience with same. *

I simply say... choose what tickes our fancy.. And offer a comment on what it can do and what it can't. Talk about issues, however I don't agree with total condemnation be it approach or Manufacturer here. 


No perfect solution.


*REMEMBER, this is simply a HOBBY.* Understand that we, as individuals have our paradyms. My take on this forum is to simply share experiences, not not condemn the choices of others. 


Now, If anyone wishes to disagree on this point, I have the opportunity to simply sign off here on "mylargescale.com" and find other venues to enhance my train experience from positive and humorous perspective. 







GG


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Quote...
MY TAKE: 

*NO manufacturer is perfect* 


Espesially the yellow boxed ones..............................







of course this is from personal experience...







Can you say clunker????? And what makes you think your remarks are cute & liberal? HE HE HE.........


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02/11/2009 7:48 PM


Quote...
MY TAKE: 

*NO manufacturer is perfect* 


Espesially the yellow boxed ones..............................







of course this is from personal experience...







Can you say clunker????? And what makes you think your remarks are cute & liberal? HE HE HE.........


















Don't know how to take that....


----------



## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By GG on 02/11/2009 7:58 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02/11/2009 7:48 PM


Quote...
MY TAKE: 

*NO manufacturer is perfect* 


Espesially the yellow boxed ones..............................







of course this is from personal experience...







Can you say clunker????? And what makes you think your remarks are cute & liberal? HE HE HE.........


















Don't know how to take that.... 







Take it like this .........


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Bonus... this is a good forum... bit off "tracK" however.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed: My point is that the explanation on the Aristo forum has no credibility.


There is no way they forgot. Something more disingenuous is afoot. I thought my analysis of the information presented made it clear.


I really do not want to continue to explain, if you do not feel now that you have been mislead, then you probably will never feel so, and I am just wasting electrons.


Regards, Greg


----------



## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

GG, My apologies to you! My comment was certainly not aimed at you. I happen to agree with everything you just said in your post.

Ed


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

More fun:

Dear All,

We have many FCC approvals from our R/C plane side and our engineers also did this for a major R/C company called Hi-tec and *we know all about FCC*. *However, you have to do FCC last as you need a manual* and all decisions made about production before submitting the product for approval. The receiver transponding was a new wrinkle for us as 2.4 GHz was the first system that had that capability for us. Wireless approval is like computer or telephone approvals and is far more complicated than perhaps power supplied based systems that are more U.L. based than FCC. Some have R/C to the base station and need FCC too. *It's obvious that we have a mature and finished product as reported by the fully independent alpha testers and we need a stamp of government approval to proceed.* I believe that basic 27 MHz no longer needs an approval, but 2.4 GHz does and we follow the rules.

*We were not sure about testing samples before approval and it seems your only allowed a few for that proceedure. A 100 samples is more than allowed by the FCC, so we had to delay the Beta testing until the full final approval was finished. *

Nothing more or less than that and they will be worth the wait. We showed the product to many magazines and users in Germany without any requested features that are not already included. 

We will add two way communication accessory activation and more later, but we've frozen the development for the FCC process. Thank you for your patience.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

I have deleted all of my comments I put down the first time.

If you do not see what is wrong here, your Kool Aide addiction is too high!!

Regards, Greg


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Deleting your comments was a good thing Greg. Your on-going addiction to this Aristo/Lewis bashing is really getting a bit old for most of us. The only thing I care to take from his comments is the fact that the product will be delayed, and he has the courtesy to inform his customers.


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Greg - if you were trapped in the desert and Lewis came by with water, how long would you look at the glass before you died of thirst? 
'cause you would never take a drink from him, that is clear. 

I have no horse in this race, so I don't care. I will say that you are welcome to your opinion, and I often look forward to your insightful comments. 

But with all due respect, these recent comments are especially insightful. Mostly because you can now read Louis' mind. 

Whatever it is that has you fired up, let it go.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg has rightly pointed out problems with both Aristo's designs and their spin about it many times. Aristo does a lot of great things but they do a lot of things wrong and say a lot of things wrong. I've learned a great deal about how to keep my stuff running better from Greg and I owe him many thanks. 


At the same time I have never understood the heat the subject generates. There are some people on this forum who seem to positively hate Aristo and look everywhere they can for things to criticize, and then hype the criticism. I just don't get that. G gage is a small world, there are not many manufacturers, and they all seem to have the usual strengths and weaknesses and the same market strategies and failings we see everywhere else



The thread is about what people think about the new system, and so I'd say Greg is right to point out that there are some contradictions in what Lewis is saying. It's information. In the end the new TE may be an excellent system that works really well as promised. But in a thread that asks for people's opinions it's good to have information, which, as I see, it, Greg is providing. Like I said, the heat the subject generates, all around, is just kind of bewildering to me


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Guys, you really do not see. (and thank you Mike, I think you are putting the pieces together) 

Look a little deeper, it's not bashing, it's illuminating. If I wanted to be popular, I would drink the Kool Aide too. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02/13/2009 10:57 PM
Guys, you really do not see. (and thank you Mike, I think you are putting the pieces together) 

I am trying to help people NOT spend $300 each on prototypes that are not even certified, but their money was "taken" before the product was even built. "Mature product"? He claims it's a mature product even though it has not passed beta testing NOR is legal for sale in the US, but he has their promise to pay and their credit card numbers? 

Maybe we should just sit by and let the more honest and possibly naive fellow modelers get taken? Sure, why should I or anyone else care about others. Let's just think of ourselves. 

Yeah, you won't believe me that I'm thinking of others in these posts, why would anyone care about anyone other than himself. 

Look a little deeper, it's not bashing, it's illuminating. If I wanted to be popular, I would drink the Kool Aide too. 

Regards, Greg










CUDO's to you Greg..... Well said.

gg


----------



## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to agree with those who see the fixation about Aristo and its products as tiresome. I feel that it has been detrimental to balanced, informative threads in most cases as the opportunity, when Aristo and its products have been the subject of a thread, has been used to manipulate it to become yet another Aristo bash.

I am not one of those who wish to Beta test the Revolution TE, I feel hardly qualified, but many people do wish to be part of the tests and have voluntarily requested that they do so. No one, I am certain, has been coerced into spending their money with Lewis/Aristo-Craft in order to be part of the test program and I think it disingenuous to assume that they are incompetent dullards who are incapable of making their own decisions and how spend what is after all their own money. 

Yes I am an Aristo fan and all my purchases of their products have been without issue. But they are not the only manufacturers in large scale who have disappointed customers. The mistake made by many, quite often I feel, is to go public and not speak to those who should be able to rectify their issues in the first instance. Maybe it doesn't always work out that way but if I have an issue with my car I don't consult my doctor about it.


Surely the art of diplomacy is to make a friend not alienate one.


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02/13/2009 7:49 PM
More fun:

Dear All,

We have many FCC approvals from our R/C plane side and our engineers also did this for a major R/C company called Hi-tec and *we know all about FCC*. *However, you have to do FCC last as you need a manual* and all decisions made about production before submitting the product for approval. The receiver transponding was a new wrinkle for us as 2.4 GHz was the first system that had that capability for us. Wireless approval is like computer or telephone approvals and is far more complicated than perhaps power supplied based systems that are more U.L. based than FCC. Some have R/C to the base station and need FCC too. *It's obvious that we have a mature and finished product as reported by the fully independent alpha testers and we need a stamp of government approval to proceed.* I believe that basic 27 MHz no longer needs an approval, but 2.4 GHz does and we follow the rules.

*We were not sure about testing samples before approval and it seems your only allowed a few for that procedure. A 100 samples is more than allowed by the FCC, so we had to delay the Beta testing until the full final approval was finished. *

Nothing more or less than that and they will be worth the wait. We showed the product to many magazines and users in Germany without any requested features that are not already included. 

We will add two way communication accessory activation and more later, but we've frozen the development for the FCC process. Thank you for your patience.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

I have deleted all of my comments I put down the first time.

If you do not see what is wrong here, your Kool Aide addiction is too high!!

Regards, Greg











My read is that Aristo ran into an approval glitch, that is all. They were prudent to identify with it and in my opinion are acting responsibly. In other industries such as mine, we would not even dream of talking about releasing new product until all testing / approvals were complete. This pre - release has muddied the waters, that is all. I'm sure that when all the dust settles, everyone will be happy. 

Sometimes, letting the cat-out-of-the-box early can fuel ill responses and information can be mis-interpreted. This does not reflect on the Company or quality of their product offering, however does reflect on their Marketing & Sales people whoever they may be. 


gg


----------



## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, your last post is typical of your incorrect conclusions. Lewis has not taken $300 from anyone at this time. Any one who signed up for the Beta tests can cancel their order whenever they desire to. He will not charge anyone the $300 until he ships the product. I believe it is proper to jump on you for that comment as it is just as incorrect as any of Lewis's comments - and as a potential customer, when and where one gets charged $300 is a lot more important to me than some of the details that you are flagging for everyone.

Regarding his comments, I personally think he is being a lot more up front than most manufacturers in letting everyone see his dirty linen. Yeah, they screwed up, and now they have to wait for the FCC. And of course he is going to put a favorable spin on the story. I would in this case, and I suspect you, Greg, would too! The major point of his message to the public was not the fine details, but rather that they were delayed by a screw up with the FCC.

I like others, appreciate many of your insights, and the help you provide to each and everyone of us, but like others have said, too, I get really tired of your Aristo bashing - and I'm sorry, you can deny it all you want, but that is what it is - Aristo bashing.

Ed


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

A lot of the info here brings out the true facts to whats going on. Nothing wrong with that. i can not agree with the statement of not feeling qualified as that's what Beta testing is about. Learning how to use and finding out likes and dislikes and such. Of course having 100 folks do testing is not considered Beta testing. I had the opportunity a few years back to do testing and it was a very rewarding experience. One thing about it I did not have to provide any out of pocket expense. That's what Beta testing is about. Later RJD


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

OK, it's not bashing, and you do not understand what he did, I guess you did not read, or want to understand. 

It is ILLEGAL to sell beta units that are not FCC approved. You cannot sell ANYTHING that is not FCC approved. Do you get it yet? It sure seems to me that this was done to get the commitment up front to finance the production run, but tried to get around the law. Federal law. 

That's how it reads. Put the Kool Aide down for a moment and read Lewis's posts, not mine. Is anything I have said untrue? Point them out. You guys say I am bashing by posting HIS words?? 

Anyone that boasts that they "know everything about FCC", but offered for sale and took credit card numbers on an unapproved product, and "forgot" to get the receiver approved... you do not see that as wrong? Makes sense to you?? Read carefully. 

If you don't see anything wrong, I want your credit card number, I've got a lot of stuff to sell you that I have not made yet that needs FCC approval. 

Greg 

p.s. on further reflection, I'm going to leave this up for one day, then I'm deleting all my posts on this or at least the last few. You Kool-aide squad members are just too tiresome, so I will stop trying to help you not waste your hard earned money (my recommendation is to not buy the product until it is mature, or you get a guarantee that it will be made "right" for free, not $30 firmware updates)

You only deserve so much "saving", and it's becoming not worth my while. Personally I want to know who I am doing business with and who I can trust. I guess if you are already drinking the Kool Aide, it affects your judgment.


----------



## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Since no one is taking any money from anyone until FCC approval has been obtained, I think it is probably an excellent idea for you to delete these posts in order to clear up the smoke screen. As someone pointed out, it is clear to a number of us that if you were in the desert starving you would sooner starve than take any help from Lewis Polk. that is okay. We definitely understand that. As far as taking any money from ANYONE for product not yet approved by the FCC, no one is or has done that. I have no doubt that you are not the least interested in Lewis's initial 100 unit production. What ever you call that run, I don't think anyone who has signed up to participate has any illusions about what they are going to get, WHEN FCC approval is obtained, and WHEN the product is shipped to them.

Ed

PS As I stated in my previous post, one error in your statements is that Lewis did NOT sell anything yet. No money has transferred yet -NO MONEY. As a result, he has not used this exercise to fun his production run. Secondly, you state that you definitley would not buy a product until it is mature, or unless you can get software updates for free. To use your words, READ LEWIS'S WORDS. That is exactly what he has stated. The first 100 purchasers will get any software upgrades FOR FREE.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Ed, you really do not get it. 

1. Do you agree that Lewis stated the delay was because the FCC won't let him have 100 beta units? Read his posts before you answer. 
2. The beta units were intended to be sold before they were certified. Otherwise why do you call them beta units? 

I have been in the industry for a long time. I have designed or led projects that are wireless and need FCC certification. You are allowed to use a few beta units before you achieve FCC approval. This is the language of the industry. You may NOT sell these units, because it is against the law to sell anything not FCC certified (wireless). 

You really do not see it? Now take the boasting that "we know everything about FCC" and you tell me it was an accident. 

It's that simple... If they were "True" beta units, and the beta test was ok'd by the FCC, he STILL could not sell them. 

This cannot be an unexpected delay. You always know about the FCC approval process.Even if you do not boast you "know everything about FCC" 

It's that simple. 

Now, this action raises red flags with me, and if I had thought to purchase what was called a "beta" unit, I would think twice. 

This is all I am trying to convey. It's not a difficult concept unless you do NOT want to understand. 

Greg 

p.s. I'm not going to respond to your comments any more. I just try to warn people that something seems fishy, and it's just like on the Aristo forum, any negative comment in the least is now "bashing", like calling someone a "communist" in the 50'


----------



## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

The drink Kool Aide is unknown to me, I don't recall that name over here. Maybe it is called something else.

I hope it tastes as pleasant as the glass of Fine Olde Pale Sherry (genuine Spanish) that I am currently sipping.









It must taste a darn sight better than vitriol!


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan call it any thing you like but it's known as kool aid and I think you have had your fair share of it.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing that folks here fail to realize is you have committed your funds to guarantee that this product will come to pass. It has taken the burden off of AC as now they know that they have the money committed to produce the product. It's like helping them to produce the product knowing that at some point in time they will have it. Just when is anyone's guess. I have never volunteered to subsidize any company with my funds. You don't see the auto makers asking for funds to develop new products do ya? Comes out of their own pockets. Later RJD


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Kool - Aid

"General Foods, the makers of Kool-Aid, would love to see the stigma removed from their best-selling powdered drink mixes."

For an insight see, "Don't Drink the Kool Aid" 
at the below link - particularly, the first and last pages:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-kool-aid.html

-Ted


----------



## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By GG on 02/14/2009 7:41 AM

CUDO's to you Greg..... Well said.

gg



What GG said plus I have Aristo and like what I have, I also have USAT, Bachmann and LGB. They all have their pros and cons. I want to know what the cons are before I buy a product not after. Just because it has cons doesn't mean that it isn't the best product of its kind out it just means I will have to work it to get it right. Thanks Greg for being knowledgable and sharing with us.


----------



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Marauderer on 02/14/2009 8:15 PM
Posted By GG on 02/14/2009 7:41 AM

CUDO's to you Greg..... Well said.

gg



What GG said plus I have Aristo and like what I have, I also have USAT, Bachmann and LGB. They all have their pros and cons. I want to know what the cons are before I buy a product not after. Just because it has cons doesn't mean that it isn't the best product of its kind out it just means I will have to work it to get it right. Thanks Greg for being knowledgable and sharing with us.



























Yes Greg, your concepts and comments are quite valid and I do appreciate them. Really, you could say the same for any manufacturer that had the same approach to a new product offering. So this is not realistically an Aristo issue, this can be said of anyone in this business. 

Unfortunately, Aristo pulled off the gaffer.... so they are the brunt of the conversation.. 

My take, simple as that. 


gg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 02/14/2009 6:23 PM
One thing that folks here fail to realize is you have committed your funds to guarantee that this product will come to pass. It has taken the burden off of AC as now they know that they have the money committed to produce the product. It's like helping them to produce the product knowing that at some point in time they will have it. Just when is anyone's guess. I have never volunteered to subsidize any company with my funds. You don't see the auto makers asking for funds to develop new products do ya? Comes out of their own pockets. Later RJD




Actually it seems to me that this happens in Large Scale ALL THE TIME. You could "pre-order" the USAT docksider for over a year: right now you can pre-order the center cupola caboose. You can pre-order the aristo consol., the MTH Triplex, The bachman K, etc. It seems like this is somewhat similar.


----------



## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

That is why I don't preorder anything that is 1st run. I wait till it is out and the experts have found all the short comings with it and then if I really want nit I buy it and modify it if it needs it. I imagine if I was on the cutting edge of technology (I'm Not!) or had to keep up with the Jones's I would be the first in line no matter what. Fortunately I am just a 10 ft rule "G" Scaler that loves trains. Go Figure!!!


----------



## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

and Yet if no one preorders or not enough then the manufacturer thinks there is no intrest and does not make it at all ...... and it is droped from the catalog .... how long has aristo said the rdc-3 was in the works????


----------



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*RE: What's your "take" on the new Aristo system?*

Yep; Remember the SD9 & the SW1500? Stillborn products. 

I use to preorder Aristo products when announced, but since stopped. 
I waited until the GP40 was actually in the country because of the way it was presented by Aristo seemed to suggest the same fate. When it actually was in dealers hands I ordered it - ultimately obtaining 7 of them. 

-Ted


----------



## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

...cept of course this item does exist as units have been in the hands of trusted forum personalities. we are waiting for FCC approval for these, not for the making of a mold or months of R&D for a currently non-existant article.

What do you think the motive is?

- Company CEO & family want to disappear to the caribbean with $30,000 obtained illegally through the sale of non-existant beta units.
- Small company have been building towards this ultimate scam form many years but made the mistake of letting their neighbor's 7-year-old be the ringleader
- Company hate the small industry they're in so want to give it the worst possible publicity and put 100's off
- Someone said to someone else that the initial FCC approval applied to the whole package and tell head honcho not to worry blah, blah, blah

If you don't think it's some sort of screw-up akin to the last motive then you're deluding yourself, life isn't James Bond and Toy Trains ain't Michael Clayton.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You have to admit it's a little odd. A few free prototypes go out. They get good reviews. Then on 12/31/08 Aristo announces a beta tester program in which you _buy_ the sets at a discounted price:

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=13466&highlight=beta 



Then a month later, on 1/30/09, Lewis posts that someone forgot to get FCC approval. It's possible somebody forgot and overlooked it, but it seems kind of unlikely. I have no idea what it costs to finance a production run, or how many people signed up to be beta testers. I have no idea how much interest in a product you need to show exists to secure a loan to finance a production run. I've never run a business and can only imagine how complicated it is. It just seems unlikely that they would forget to file with the FCC. It strains credulity, and when I saw that announcement I thought "huh, that's kind of...odd."


But aristo is not some huge comany, it's a small outfit and mistakes happen, and they are in it to make money, and so they should. I'll continue to do business with aristo, taking care to look before leaping.


----------



## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 02/14/2009 6:11 PM
Alan call it any thing you like but it's known as kool aid and I think you have had your fair share of it.









Well you know RJ I have been wondering what has kept me happy during this mserable cold winter and not enough train running occasions. Now I know and I must have enjoyed every glassful.


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I like othes here do not pre order. If it comes out fine if not I'm not out anything either. Even pre ordering is no guarantee that the product will be made. Later RJD


----------

