# New Live Steam Loop



## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

All, 

I am getting a bit too deep in this live steam hobby and am going to now work to build my own elevated layout. It is going to be in Southern Wisconsin so there will be frost heave and I am looking at a space of about 25-30' wide and 75-100' long. I am aiming to have >10 foot radius curves for the larger locomotives and cars. 

I will also plan to be running both Gauge 1 and Narrow Gauge (1:20.5) equipment so will plan to space the dual track on the loop accordingly. I am planning to do either a loop or potentially a dog bone.

The land is relatively flat with some small undulations that an elevated layout would address. I may do a trestle at some point but the goal right now is to get trains going as quickly as possible. 

I have looked at many of the threads on this subject, from the concrete blocks, pvc pipe filled with concrete, and a manufactured layout (e.g. eaglewings). I also really like the HDPE ladder roadbed option but am worried that I will have to elevate the layout more than 2 feet and I am not looking to backfill with dirt as of now. 

Any other thoughts on layout options I should consider? Any reviews on the Eaglewings layout option in the midwest where it will freeze? 

Appreciate it


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I always suggest that whatever method that you use, make it something that you enjoy working with. In other words, if you like working with, and understand wood, then built the track with wood.
If you like metal, then go that route.
Build some adjustability in the track in case it moves up and down.
Build it in a way that you can make changes to it in the future, just in case!
Enjoy the build.
Cheers,
David


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Thsnks, it is good advice. I am more comfortable with wood but am ok with PVC and HDPE. I would probably purchase the metal which would be great for speed, less great for expanding in the future. 

The other challenge I am having is track.... I have a LOT of LGB track including the 18000 R5... I think I am going to need to sell much of it for this layout as best I can research it apperas to be 7.7' in radius.. 

Lots of fun to come


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Kevin, you can bend your own curves using LGB flex track. I yet have to meet anyone regretting using LGB track... it lasts! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

zubi said:


> Kevin, you can bend your own curves using LGB flex track. I yet have to meet anyone regretting using LGB track... it lasts! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


Thanks.. all of mine is sectional.... happens when you purchase it before you learn.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you hit most of the options. The 4" post in concrete blocks seems easiest as a base, and there's a good tutorial around here somewhere. And a host of videos on Youtube.



> Any reviews on the Eaglewings layout option in the midwest where it will freeze?


I doubt the freeze will matter - but what do I know, I'm in Florida. Here we have problems with 'manufactured' layouts rusting due to heat and humidity. [Even stainless steel rusts here!] I am not saying Eaglewings has that problem, but do investigate the coating/paint on the base to see how it will hold up.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I had an Eaglewings raised layout for a number of years near Rochester, NY, certainly an area of freeze/thaw cycles. The "spikes" driven into the ground have a very small cross section resulting in very little frost heave. The tops of them are a T shaped configuration which support the track frames with square tubing that fits over the top of the spike with a set screw that allows vertical adjustment. It needed very little adjustment over the years.
I added an inner dual gauge loop on "ladders" made from 1x4 pvc lumber supported on 3" pvc pipe legs on deck blocks. They also did not move much due to frost heave.
I now live in Florida and helped build a 45mm gauge layout at our local live steam ride-on club using galvanized steel "track" sides (like steel studs with no holes) with 2x4 lumber cross pieces and 4x4 legs on deck blocks with fence board tops. My friend Fred from central MI (another frost heave area) has had a layout built like this in two locations for years with no problems. I am building a layout in my screen room here in Florida using the same technique.
I have some photos of this track which I can't post here but if you will send me a PM with your e-mail I can send them to you. Were I doing things over in upstate NY I would use this method. It is fast and cheap compared with Eaglewings and should last years and be able to be modified if your needs change. 
I have and someone in your area may have a Train Li rain bender which allows the bending of track sections without removing the rail from the ties. It would allow repurposing your existing track to fit the frame you will construct.
I would gladly answer questions you may have by PM. There are live steamers in the Madison, WI area that I could put you in touch with.
Have fun,
Tom


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks Tom, PM sent


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

fsts2k said:


> Thanks Tom, PM sent


Keep us informed on progress. I am also in the process of building above ground layout. Later RJD


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Will do

I am attempting to do a test module build this weekend using steel "track" if I can carve out a few hours. 

Kevin


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Whether we realize or not nearly everybody digs a hole tapered the bottom smaller than the top. Test it; make a "Tee" from a couple sticks, puit in the hole and a level on top.

In this diagram we can see what happens through a series of freeze and thaw cycles.









Soil heave:
Freezing can force a post out of the ground (Taper of posts is exaggerated for clarity)









A bell shaped hole makes for a stable post.









But:...
Soil Freeze (Soil Expansion) depends on the type of soil you have and drainage.. Even in a freeze area, like St. Louis, Missouri, a USGS soil map will show the type of soil and drainage. It will tell you whether you have to worry about Soil Freeze or not. Living there for a couple years everyone said i'd have to worry about it. USGS map said I had good drainage. Never had a problem with soil heave. No one believed I didn't have a problem. 

Soil & Drainage Maps for the entire US and focused to small areas are available on the USGS website. Free plus print outs and to order full size copies (up to 30x40).


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Pete Thornton said:


> I think you hit most of the options. The 4" post in concrete blocks seems easiest as a base, and there's a good tutorial around here somewhere. And a host of videos on Youtube.
> 
> I doubt the freeze will matter - but what do I know, I'm in Florida. Here we have problems with 'manufactured' layouts rusting due to heat and humidity. [Even stainless steel rusts here!] I am not saying Eaglewings has that problem, but do investigate the coating/paint on the base to see how it will hold up.


Pete, did you recently move?
-nate


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## ncdodave (Jul 17, 2016)

Chris, Say hello to my dad Terry and the gang in Santa Rosa!


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

I have built 30' of the platform out of galvanized steel track and pressure treated 2x4s with the great support of Tom Bowdler who has been helping from afar. Overall I like the contruction and am planning a weekend at the layout site to really get into the build. 

I am still going back and forth on two things:

- The top: I am debating between using plastic decking with a screen stretched over and balast, dibond or similar material, or using 1/2" thick PVC board purchased in 4x8 sheets. I have not been able to find a dibond dealer near Chicago but can get the PVC boards at Lowes/Menards. That said I think the decking would be easiest... 

- Track: I have quite a bit of LGB track that has not been used including 12 boxes of 4' straights. That said I want to use large switches, larger than the 18000 option that I have. Currently would like 10 or 13 ft radius switches. Therefore I keep going back and forth of purchasing from Sunset valley or LLagas Creek and going with Stainless or Nickel Silver. My issue is that I have many electric engines that would be nice to be able to run but getting power to the track would require effort and would be probably need to be put in each day for each day. Therefore I worry that I won't bring electric power out very often. Soo... the question is if I buy all new track and switches from the same place to minimize problems. Obviouly cost is a factor but I am only doing this once (or at least that is my hope) I am willing to make sure I have wide enough switches and curves for the big engines. 

If anyone has any thoughts on the above I would appreciate it


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think Sunset Valley makes switches in 332 only 250. you can get adapters that go from 332 to 250


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

All, 

Been a while since I updated here but I think I have enough to share. I built all the sections in a workshop and then trailered it up to the final location and spent two weekends getting it together. It has been built with pressure treated 2x4's and steel track on 4x4 posts mounted in deck blocks. Currently it is about 180 feet around and I am planning a dual loop with two through sidings. The platform is 24" wide with the siding area being doubled up at 48" wide. I am using 3/4" PVC sheet as the top. 

I have it leveled (best I can) all the way around and was suprised by the level of elevation of the land. It goes from about ankle to nearly shoulder high through the full run. I am hoping 2 more days to get the remaining bracing in and the top on. Then will paint it green and lay track. I am currently debating using the PVC board to put a facia on to cover up the steel as portions of it are a bit sharp from cutting.

A few friends from this board have been massively helpful. Special thanks to Tom Bowdler for all his guidance. There have been times where I thought I bit off more than I can chew... I think I now feel like this can be successful. 

Hope you enjoy the pictures. Can't figure out how to embedd them so I added links as they are on my Google Drive

Driving up with modules
Facing South
North End
Facing North
Facing East
Facing South, Steamup Area
South Loop
North Loop


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

Superb job Kevin!!
I would be honored to come and steam on it some day.
Best regards
Tom


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## PCBN (Dec 27, 2007)

Just to throw this out there if interested; I have 600' of *new* Llagas code 250 aluminum track still in the 10-packs that I bought in 1996. I originally purchase 720' but decided to use 120' for indoor yard portion of my new layout in progress. 



I have since found out I can't use this track in Alaska because of the high content of volcanic ash in the soil; causes excessive corrosion and it will then start to flake off. 



Reply if interested. Will consider a reasonable offer on all or part. Rail joiner clips are included. Llagas does not do 10-packs any more. I believe they want $41.50 per 6' section and joiners are separate. Also have wyes and 10' radius turnouts (LH & RH)


Burl


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## PCBN (Dec 27, 2007)

OOPS! I made a mistake on the price of the Llagas track now; it is $24.50 NOT $41.50 per 72" length. Plus I forgot to mention; the rail joiners are stainless steel and the track is all flex track.


Burl
(907)688-3715 days


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks for the offer but I already ended up with a large order of brass track so I can support electrifying it at some point. I have too many electric locos to not give it a shot.


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

No new pictures yet but made more progress this weekend. Have 44 of the 58 posts painted and decided to put 5/16 plastic trim pieces as a facia to cover the steel channels. The top is 3/4 of the way on, just ran out of 4x8 sheets.. should have rest on the 8th. Two more hard days of work and I hope to be mounting track. 

Going to have to learn that track bender now...


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

I have not been able to put the rest of the top but did get it repainted from the deep green to a sand color with solar gain protection. The deep green caused the platic top to warp... this paint now has a heat barrier in it plus is lighter color to minimize warping. 


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gwrmQ9_9ydJXId6xhUWaVKV0pVl04EiH

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1G8ypJwmumZOvTKgrMkuQ-YRysWybu8vl


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Adding the pics as attachments now


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Finally laying track! 

Was able to get switches on North side of the yard put in and the inner loop started. The top didn't fair perfectly due to the dark color paint (now repainted sand color with vinyl safe paint) for the large yard areas. The result is that I have some wavyness in parts.. need to figure out if I am going to replace those parts or if additional 2x4 supports will help. Otherwise I suspect I can also use ballast to shim the bottom but I would prefer to get it as level as possible with the structure.

I only tacked this part down.. will go back and spend time trying to get it as straight as possible... I have used a straight edge but it is sure hard to keep track going perfectly straight over 30'. 

Kevin


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

Looking good Kevin! You think its hard keeping gauge 1 track straight, think about the full size thing! I'm sure you'll be forgiven if its not perfectly straight haha. Please continue to update us on your progress!


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Ran my first train today on the newly laid inner loop






Overall really happy with progress. There is one slightly high spot that I will tune up. Need to put in second loop and the yard


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

"Done" is a strong term but I made a lot of progress over Labor Day weekend. All track is laid down (I ran out of clamps so I have to redo some of it) and I will put two more switches in for the yard but this is pretty much what I planned. I have a few spots to continue to tweak where the top isn't perfectly flat (will use Bondo to fill in) and adjust level but the trains are running fairly well.


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Great job and it does look level and smooth I know that can be hard to achieve. I like seeing how people build their layouts as everyone has a different twist on ideas.
Can you tell me more about the PVC track base material? How thick is it, what weight do think it would take and how close do you need to put 'support' underneath? I am in a very hot climate where sun warps everything so is the painting in a lighter colour stopping this? Can you post a pic of a piece side on so I can see how thick and what it is as we don't seem to have anything like this in Australia.
Thanks
Russell


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks Russell

The PVC material is made by Royal Building Products and what I purchase comes in 4x8 foot sheets that are 3/4" thick. You can see the cross section in the video I embedded in post #26. The white top above the green steel channel is 3/4" thick. 

The reason for the light paint is exactly due to warping. I first painted it deep green but it absorbed the sun and warped, it was actually hot to the touch. I then used a paint designed for this PVC that would block the solar gain, it is much better. Unfortunately I have to fix the places where it did warp, will be using Bondo for that. 

I think I would do it again due to the rot resistant properties and ease of work. That said, I had visions it would be more rigid, it is not. I am using many 2x4's to brace under the boards especially where there are joints.. You can see the bracing in the initial pictures I put in the beginning of the thread.


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Thanks for the info but another question is the 3/4" thick PVC board solid PVC, or a PVC sandwich with styrene in between I can't quite tell from the pic. I see the supports, I too need many supports as I use aluminium mesh as a track base but it's hard to keep it level but it is very light. In some yard areas I'd like something with a flat base so I might try and find the PVC board ,as you say it doesn't rot and still lightweight. By the way my layout is the post titled "Kitchen Window to carport" from a few months back.
Thanks
Russell


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Russell, you have a great layout. I am planning to "borrow" your idea for artificial grass. 

The board is all PVC, not a sandwich. Please note it is not really lightweight. The 4x8 sheets are still pretty heavy. I don't have an exact weight and I think it might be lighter than plywood but not by a lot. 

Happy to answer any other questions you might have.


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Few new videos from last week with changing colors. Didn't have a lot of time to get the big trains out but the Shay did great:
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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

What a nice looking track with interesting curves.
Looks good.
Is that Lake Michigan in the background?
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Thank you David, I appreciate it. 

The lake is actually Lake Geneva located in South Central Wisconsin. I am very lucky to be able to use some of the land for the layout and it has become quite a fun thing for the family to be a part of. My younger nephews are really starting to get into it which makes me hopeful I can groom some running friends 

The curves were all designed to be a bit more than 10' radius but I have one section on the outer loop that is still giving me challenges. I am not sure if it is too tight or if there is a slight grade but I hope to further tune it out over Thanksgiving. 

It snowed the other day up there, need to procure a plow!
Kevin


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