# SWGRS 2010



## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

First I wanted to thank everyone for coming to the First Southwest Garden Railroad show. The 
and excitement made the show a lot of fun to do. I looking forward to a bigger and better show next year.

Since this show really belongs to the vendor and attendees I want to open up a discussion. Many of you may have heard
about this, but, I want your opinion.A newsletter will be going out soon and I am happy to send it to anyone requesting it. Its
in regards to the dates of next year show and the reasons. 

So the questions to all of you is ...... 
Am I Nuts ?!?!

One of the biggest surprises to come out of the show was the suggestion to hold next year’s Southwest Garden 
Railroad Show on the same dates as the Big Train Show in Ontario. This suggestion did not come from me but by 
a number of vendors at the show. There are many reasons for their thinking and I will try to explain it and I hope 
will get some response from all of you.
Probably the most important reason would be the decision by BTS to make their show an all 
scale show. I understand that decision and I wish Ontario great success in what they want to do. 
I personally have gone to many train shows all over the country and it’s just a fact that large scale trains are not represented
percentage wise the same as the other scales. This gives large scale hobbyists and shoppers less choice and selection 
as a large scale show. The only exception to this rule would be BTS last year and I’m sure that is because it was previously 
a large scale show. But, it isn’t anymore. G gauge vendors and hobbyists want a large scale show on the west
coast. Some of the comments we received from vendors were,
“a.. As expect for a first time show, the number of people coming into the show was lower than the Big 
Train show, but everybody attending was a buyer. Every buyer came with money and was ready to make 
purchases. So the most important thing Dollars per visitors was about 5x above the BTS.
b. Every visitor was very pleased with the location and was more positive than BTO visitors, especially the large
scale visitors who were disappointed about the “all scale” displays and mixed vendors.
c. The presence of the Fairplex layout, and the pleasant surrounding contribute to a much nicer environment 
than the BTO location.”
The old Queen Mary show had a fine tradition and they want it to continue. They believe that can be
done at the Fairplex.The next issue was scheduling. Again, traditionally, there has been a large 
scale show the first weekend in June for around 20 years. Many vendors from the east coast want
to come to the show and timing and scheduling has been set for that time frame for years. Although a fall
show was great, when you start listing the other shows around the country and the time slots available 
for the Fairplex, then throw in the Holiday seasons, there are 
only two weekends that will work, Halloween weekend or the first weekend in November. Both dates 
put a strain on vendors from the Midwest and the east making it really hard for them to attend.
One of the old sayings regarding a business is that there are three major things to keep in mind for a business to 
succeed and that is location, location, location. The Fairplex is a great place to hold a train show. With the added 
features of both the garden railroad and the railroad museum, it’s a natural. There was more excitement at SWGRS 
and everyone noticed it.Some ask, “Why do you want to compete against the BTS?” I don’t and I’m not. We are
both train shows, that’s true. But, I’m for the large scale train people. Kalmbach Publishing has a number 
of magazines for trains.Despite being owned by the same publisher, does Garden Railways magazine compete
against Model Railroader or do they support different interests in the model railroad hobby? I think I am
doing the same thing.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

IMHO Fairplex is a better venue for SWGRS considering the Fairplex railroad is right next door and the full-size museum is not far away. To have it the same date as the Ontario show would be OK with me. It seems to be a decision left to the vendors.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I would agree its the vendors who should decide this issue, personally I would prefer having two shows with the SWGRS on the Nov date, but if vast majority the SWGRS vendors decide that they would prefer to have a G scale specific show at the Fairplex in June thats fine with me too, its actually closer for me but bringing in display items for any MLS booth (if we have one) would be far easier at the Ontario venue, at the Fairplex one might find themselves having to schlep boxes of stuff from a 1/2 mile away depending on where you've had to park, plus the Fairplex guards might be a little wiggy about letting people bring boxes of stuff in, this has happened during the county fair with people trying to return items to a vendor. But I'm sure alot of this could be straightened out. Sounds interesting...


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic, 

Your concern about the parking "could" be a problem I guess. But we parked within 25 feet of the gate on the southeast(?) side of the exhibit hall. We were less than 100 feet from the doors of the hall. I have walked much further to get into the Ontario show. Everybody I saw attend this years show came prepared with carts to take out the "goodies". I'm talking about attendees, not vendors. There is a fix for most problems. I would rather see the show return to its "large scale only" format. Neither show will ever be like the Queen Mary.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I really do not think you should have it at the same time as the BTS. 
You might try some kind of shuttle between the entrance to the show and the Gate by the Hotel. 
Maybe a round trip Show, Parking lot, Hotel gate, show. 
Or also include the Musuem on the shuttle route 
Maybe to the a customers car if he has packages. 
I had a good time. Wish tool man would come back. I hear he has some Health isues.


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## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

I have been assured we will not have any parking issues. We have also arranged for a shuttle for next year. This whole issue is not an easy one for me. I respect the BTS and I wish it the best. but, It isn't a large scale show. I hope this will all work out for the best for both shows. I would be willing to work out a reciprical agreement with BTS so everyone gets the best of both worlds. 

JJ, 
I talked with Billy Car, The Toolman, last weekend. He is doing well and feeling fine. I am trying to talk him into coming to the show. You might want to invite him also. 

David


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Do you have a Link or E mail for Tool Man?


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## gscaleisfun (Jan 14, 2008)

[email protected] or [email protected]


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Dave & everyone, 

It sounds like the Fairplex is a great venue and Dave as you witnessed at Trainfest there were more smaller scale vendors there then there were G Scalers. As a vendor, I would be more appt to attend a show that was tiered towards our G-Scale product line then not...thou the 2009 Trainfest Show was our first multi-scale train show, we had hundreds of enthusiasts ask us to manufacture a line of HO Scale products. But, as we talked in Milwaukee, we will be adding more of your events to our schedule in 2010...I would suggest to keep it two separate venues. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like to see an all large scale show in the old Queen Mary tradition. The BTS was ok this year but I fear it will gradually change over to just another train show. I did not attend the first SWGRS this year but will probably switch over from the BTS to SWGRS next year. I'm one who flies down from Washington,usually with friends,and rents a car. So,what kind of arrangements have been or will be made with a hotel for rates and parking? Scheduling on the same weekend as the BTS would cause some venders to make a choice between shows like The Tool Man. How many other venders that are non gauge specific would this affect? Have USA and Aristocraft had any input yet,as in willing to dispaly at the SWGRS? Starting to ramble here a little but here is another thought. Before San-Val closed , On the Friday before BTS I would make most of my big purchases there,meaning larger items like locos and cars, because they would hold the items and ship them. No sales tax and very convenient. I would like to see some kind of shipping service made available. Just don't know if there are enough out of towners to make it worthwhile.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I really liked the SWGRS, and hope to see it yearly. 

But it would be a mistake to hold it the same weekend as the BTS. Not enough vendors to support two shows. And if one, two, three, etc... goes there, how many more will follow? So no, it would be foolish to hold the next SWGRS the same day as the BTS.

The Fairplex is a pretty good location. The garden railway is a natural attraction, and the Age of Steam museum is another plus. 


Due to the dog show that was going on the same time as the SWGRS, the parking distance from the venue was more severe then it normally would have been. So for next years show try to avoid the times when there are other very large shows being held, or shows that potentially can block parking access (like the dog show).


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

My two bits...seems to me the key phrase is "One of the biggest surprises to come out of the show was the suggestion to hold next year’s Southwest Garden Railroad Show on the same dates as the Big Train Show in Ontario. This suggestion did not come from me but by a number of vendors at the show." 
The success of a large scale train show depends a great deal on WHO the vendors are at the train show...and the sales generated. If the suggestion came from the folks SELLING stuff...then a poll of all the sellers needs to be taken to see what they're preference is. If the suggestion came from the folks DISPLAYING stuff...including the manufacturer's booths...that's a WHOLE different matter. To me, they don't have dog in the hunt. Given the distance traveled by many of the selling vendors, they NEED to know they're going to make money by attending the show...especially during this recession.


We're all concerned about the BTS going rogue...multiscale. We saw the beginnings of the dilution of the LS sales space last year. I expect more non-LS vendors will show up this year...and IF the SWGRS goes head to head with the BTS, you can bet that more space will become available for small scale sales booths and further dilution of the LS buyers attending. This is NOT good for either show. Head to head competition between the shows means there will be fewer dealers at each show...and fewer buyers. I don't see any of the vendors having booths at both shows.


Then we have the social aspects to deal with. The BTS has GRR tours and banquets hosted by the manufacturers. That's a drawing point for many of the clubs attending and for those of us that go for the social aspects as well as the selling/buying aspect. I usually went for three days to the BTS and the afternoon and evening social hours were an important aspect of the BTS. Seems to me, that going head to head will diminish that aspect of the show as it will split the attendees up.


Then we have the facilities issues...especially access to the show by handicapped participants. At the recent SWGRS, parking was at the Marriott Hotel...about a 1/4 mile away...maybe more. Without handicapped transportation inside the Fairplex, it made it very hard on folks. The large parking lot at Gate 1 (where the guard booth is) was NOT available to folks attending the show because it had been reserved for unloading cars from transporters for an upcoming car show. I tried to park there, after being refused entrance to the Fairplex GRR area parking (with a vendor's pass). I was asked to NOT park there by the security guards and ended up way back at the Marriott. The Fairplex has access rules to the Fairplex GRR parking area...to before the show starts and after the show ends. Seems to me, that folks with handicapped parking authorization should be able to park there whenever they arrive....but that is NOT the park rules. Now...I've heard complaints about the parking at the BTS since it moved to Ontario. Some of their parking lots are pretty far from the facility. I think the Fairplex site setup has a better chance of solving the parking issues though...just takes some advanced planning.


Frankly, I'd prefer a winter all LS show here...but I understand the difficulty this poses for vendors that have to travel from or across where it's cold and snowy with stuff to sell.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

David, please keep one thing in mind -- many of the vendors who want you to go head-to-head with the BTS don't CARE which show survives as long as they only have to exhibit at one -- the survivor's.

On the other hand, if you can position yourself as a Christmas season show, and spend at least a year or two at the process of attracting more vendors who get more sales, SWGRS would become a lot stronger!


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Dave,

I'm sorry I didn't get around to responding to your email. I've been so swamped.

When I first read your email, my initial thought was and still is: It's not the right time. While it is true that the BTS has gone 'all scale', it is still very much large scale centric. Look at their web site... http://www.bigtrainshow.com/ 3 of the 4 main sponsors listed are large scale only. There is only 1 that is multi scale. By scheduling the show on the same dates, you are forcing vendors to choose. They have to choose between a small, new show that is large scale centric, or a large well advertised and well attended show that is all scale. I suspect that very few vendors would choose to do both shows. For the smaller cottage industry vendors, your show would be a better bet, but for the larger vendors and manufacturers, I expect that the larger more popular show w be a more attractive option. The ability to get a return on their costs of attending the show and attracting new people to the hobby. You are also making the clubs that display their layouts at the show choose. I'm not sure of the details, but usually the shows that our club sets up our modules, we're paid a meager stipend for coming. I would imagine that a large well attended show can afford to pay a large layout like the Del Oro club much more than you could to get them to attend your show. You would be left with the clubs that weren't as interested in funding as they are in getting together and chew the fat. 


The only group not forced to choose would be the average joe attending the show. You can walk through both shows over the course of both days and be no worse for the wear. I suspect that there would be a group that won't want to pay 2 entrance fees, 2 parking fees, etc.. 


I've considered many times over the years organizing a "MLS Reunion" show each year. I never took much action on this as I felt that there were already strong shows in each of the 'hot spots'. With the announcement last year of the BTS going all scale, I thought that maybe the time would come in the next couple years. I figured that it would take at least 2 or 3 years before the focus of the show was blurred enough to disenfranchise the large scale faithful. At that point, I figured we could get something organized. I was a little surprised to see your throw together a show so quickly this year, but aside from being on a holiday (you have a knack for that  ) I was happy that you stepped up. I applaud you for taking on not 1, but 3 shows in the last few years. 


I will support you in whatever decision you finally do make in regards to the dates. We'll be there, but I just worry that by directly competing with another show that still has a large scale focus and supported by the main large scale players, you're setting yourself up for failure. Until that show loses more of it's large scale focus, you should not directly compete with it for vendors, clubs and attendees. Work "with" the show, not against it. Maybe if you scheduled it a week after or before the BTS, you'd have better luck convincing some of these vendors into staying over to attend both shows. 

Just my humble opinion...


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Shad 
in Sept of 2010, how old will MLS be ???


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

There is one possible advantage of the BTS show going All scale. 

CONVERTERS. 

There is the possibility of smaller scale guys converting to Large scale. 

Mabye we could anoint the new comers to LS with smoke oil or something 

We could put some water in a pan and boil the **** out of it. Then add some steam oil. 

Then it could be HOLY OIL


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 26 Nov 2009 08:27 AM 
Shad 
in Sept of 2010, how old will MLS be ??? 
10 Years on July 4th chief...


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with JJ, around here we try to be at mixed shows just to find converts. 

Shad 
Only 10 years??? I thought it was longer. 
I'd be interested in doing a mixed NTCGRR/MLS tee shorts and a 10th aniversry here if it would work for you and Mel and the girls.. 

I'm just throwing thoughts out here. 
it will be our 8th year doing it. 
The only date problem is that Aristo put their 2nd ECLSTS on our date. I tried to talk them to start a week early or so.
we can't move our date because of the towns big evens ,Apple Jack etc.before and after.
I had a number of folks that are dealers say they wanted to come just to visit and play but the 2nd ECLSTS tired them up.

We could even talk to Rene at GRYS and have them put it on the events page.

Just boucing around ideas.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would cast my vote to not have it on the same day. 

I would also appreciate two shows a year, I promise to spend twice as much! 

People often save up their purchases if a show is soon, so I think there is ample potential for good sales at a June and a Fall/Winter show. 

(Here in California, we really don't know when winter is, so October to the end of the year is Winter, then we just wait in January for it to get warmer). 

Since we don't have weather problems, I would think early November would be great, lots of people would be there getting large scale Christmas presents! 

Regards, Greg


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like to thank the organizers of the SWGRS for going out of their way for me. I had some concern getting access as I am in a wheelchair and drive a ramp van. I had models running on both Del Oro Pacific and the 1/32 group, plus entry in the contest, making moving that many trains difficult. I was allowed to park right next to the building during set-up and then the organizers brought a car in at the start of tear down and moved my stuff back to my car, which was parked at the gate of the hotel. Probably the toughest part was the $9.00 per day parking cost at the hotel. 

John


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