# will type S mortar work for roadbed?



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Just picked up 10 80 lbs. bags cheap!


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Man, I really hate those 80# bags! They are a real disc herniator!









I would set it on a gravel base to give it a bit of cushion from future breaking from frost heave. 


-Brian


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

thanks! I would have never known... 
BTW I love this forum! I have learned so much throughout the years. Most importantly, it is always good to learn something before you try it and fail. The experiance that you all share is invaluble and it feels like a huge family to me. 
I know, I know, blah blah blah.... lol


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

P.S. My back still hurts just from unloading that stuff!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Talk to the store manager of your local HOME DEPOT/ LOWES. You might be able to strike up a deal for the broken bags of concrete in the store. I friend of mine gets all the broken bags of concrete motor and stucco on a pallet for about 10 or 20 bucks a pallet. I have a 30 gallon rubbermaid trash can full of mortor and stucco mix which I am using for my canyon walls.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to ask do you guys ever use some rebar in their? Seams to me, even one continuous #3 bar or even just heavy gauge wire would be needed to hold it all together or risk heave and tempurature cracking and breaking it up. Am I far off here?


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I thought about that, rebar cost too much $$ Hardware cloth (wire grid) is cheaper but I am pouring it under my PVC pipe and it would be rather tricky to shim some wire under it but it probably needs to be done. The last pour I made was rather wet, then it rained that night. A couple days later I stepped on it and it sound like popcorn, cracked up etc. but stayed in place. I also plan on pouring ag lime (ballast) down before track.... ?


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

here is a pic of it. I suppose I need to fish some wire up under the pipe in there.... ?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

cost VS doing it again, I want to see how well it holds over time . rebar 3/8" is 1.99 for 10ft. 
I use wire mesh in portal forms and retaining wall forms.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I am so glad you replied Marty. You are the one that basically convinced me to pour a roadbed instead of only using ballast. Rebar at 2 10' sticks (1 on each side) = $4 per 10 foot at 200+ foot of track = another $80+++++ 
GOD knows this hobby IS NOT for the poor man! lol 
Also, I read once that if the rebar rusts, it will not hold anyways...?


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Have you added aggregates to the mortar? I thought mortar is to hold bricks or rocks together. Why didn't use concrete? 

Having used mortar, I'm thinking it will be OK since you reinforced with mesh or rebar; just wondering.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I did not reinforce the 3 sections done so far. Thanks to you guys, I have decided it is neccessary now. Went with Mortar because it is easy to mix in bucket with drill and will be used for retaining walls etc. later. Should I return some of it for regular quikrete stuff? RRRRRRR


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I would be concerned about temperature expansion and contraction of the PVC pipe eventually cracking and pushing apart the concrete, I think adding the wire mesh is a good idea.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah I agree about the wire mesh part. I will use it on the rest of the line... If the mortar breaks away, I am still using ballast and the track will "float" on the PVC.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I use re bar all the time. Mostly 3/8ths... I also use any long pieces of scrap iron I have around Even some 6 FT all thread. Look at all my thread that I have posted about concrete road bed. If you are in a climent where there is sever frost I would not drive any re bar or stakes of any kind into the ground. I think that is what causes your road bed to heave when it freezes. 

Of course here in AZ I don't have to work about that. 

REmember the more effort you put into your concrete road bed making it level and smooth the more chance you will never hae to do it again. Just clear any debris and run. I have stuff that has been down 5 to 6 years and have never had to re level it.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, the last pour either was a bad mix or became brittle from being rained on? It was the 1st that I used gravel underneath as suggested in this thread, I wonder if this was the cause? I was thrilled from not having to use so much mortar because of the gravel but it also made it much thinner! I removed it and here is a pic of it.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier post John. The gravel would be in in addition to your mortar bed, trenching out if necessary. I would imagine you would want your mortar to be at least 3 inches thick for strength. 
Bust up the broken stuff for base material. 

-Brian


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

You would be better off to add gravel to your mortar mix and have a rough concrete mix. Use angular gravel not round pea gravel. If you don't want to spend the money for rebar you could try buying those figerglass fibers that they add to concrete. Home Depot sells it, I don't have any idea how much it is.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Mortar is not a structural material, more like a cover coat or a rock binder. Don't walk on it and it won't break as quicly. 

Might be a good time to get some exercise, I mix concrete in my wheelbarrow with a concrete hoe, has two big holes in it, from the wheel barrow to a 5 gal bucket only as full as I want to carry. Pour and quick tamp to get it down, go back for more.... After one bag has been poured I do my near finish work, depending if I want a crown or flat. If you plan long runs then rebar will help keep it together. All metal should be completely covered and not driven into the ground... that only invites trouble as the rebar oxidizes and expands causing the concrete to crack... The heat of the cure drives out the moisture of mixing and the rebar will be dry. 
Wet the hole before pouring... 
Mist when a freshly set pour, Sprinkle when it's harder.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I was just gonna mention what TotalWrecker said. The rebar (steel) could expand when wet and rusty and crack the mortar. Happened to me with concrete; even happened to the editor of Garden Railway. I'm not sure but I think 2-4 inches of concrete or mortar should surround rebar on all sides, as those materials are porous. Also, I'd add aggregates to your mortar to strengthen it. Of course, if it cracks, no harm done, it's just subroadbed, right? It will probably need an expansion crack anyway.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I still don't think you should use mortar, it's weak and tends to crack as it cures. 
But if you don't walk on it, it should act as solid roadbed support for ballast. 

I've worked with 3 different concrete contractors, all rebar and steel cloth was either propped on rocks or the cloth was manually lifted as the pour was made. Never was any metal in contact with the ground. 
Wood and plastic can warp, but concrete? Never! Unless you think those 80 pounds are going to get up and wander off, there is no need to stake it down. It's already conforming to the ground under it, where can it go? 

Home Disapointment rents electric mixers, break the bags in half until your strength builds, been there done that. 
John


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

OK... I have some portland cement I have been mixing in with the Mortar! This may be causing it to be brittle also!??!?! I got it for nothing so I have been mixing it in to get rid of it etc. Now that I have 10 bags of this type 2 mortar...and a pile of C6 clean gravel. Mix them two and proceed? I am thinking of getting some sacks of quikrete concrete and mixing with the Mortar? The 1st 2 pours are holding up very good! It was a different type mortar and was mixed with the portland cement...SON OF A [email protected]#$%


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course if you're real cheap, don't buy the expensive premix stuff. Naturally, it depends on the quantity you need. Contact your local sand and gravel place and get a yard of sand and a couple yards of gravel. Then just buy a bag of Portland cement. Easy as 1-2-3. One part cement, two parts sand, three parts gravel. Mix well, then add water until it is workable. It will take about 45 80# bags of premix for a yard of concrete and cost a little shy of $200. For about $130 you can buy in bulk and get about three yards of concrete. It's amazing how much more you pay to have it premixed and bagged. Be sure to get masonry or concrete sand, not play or cushion sand.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

would ag lime work in place of sand?


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

aggregates (small stones) would strengthen (& sand); that's basically what concrete is (plus cement). 

Your line seems pretty low to the ground. Even if you walk on it and it cracks, I can't see any harm done at all so I probably wouldn't worry. 

The worst case scenario I've ever seen is the layout of a very experienced and excellent modeler on this forum. He basically mixed cement with his ballast and it ended up not only cracking but breaking all apart. I won't give his name here but if even the "experts" do things wrong, seems anyone can. 

As long as your mix is at least 2 inches deep, set on gravel that's been tamped, I think you will do just fine. Whatever cracks there are will be covered with ballast anyway. I wouldn't sweat it. The mortar or whatever you have there, will keep plants from growing thru the tracks and provide a nice firm roadbed. 

Looks good, keep up the great work


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Thank you for the most positive encouragement Foreman! I will proceed... IF EVER it stops raining! I am planning a huge 4th of July pool party and had hoped to have at least a loop of track down.....?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I use nothing but extra strenght concrete with a single piece of 3/8" rebar down the middle being sure to leave a short lenght sicking out the end of each pour to tie to the next. My pours are 2.5" deep. This is similar to Marty's only I think a little deeper. Never have had a problem with anything breaking or shifting.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

its been awhile to reply. I was gone. 
"once rebar rust it will not hold" 
thats true for bridge construction etc. but not always in this application. 
I've taken up old sections and broken off the concrete just to salvage the old rebar to make changes in the layout. 
I think Marc H. said that in one of his articals for his thin abutments.


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