# AC Dash 9 vs. USA SD-70 MAC



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

The kid and I are nuts for a new road engine. I thought I would start the research here. Both engines appear nice in person and the USA seems to have more detail, on the trucks w/chains etc. So... I have some basic questions.
1. I think they both have plugs to use battery power, is a reciever and batteries all that is needed in a trailing car?
2. Will either of these big engines manage 5-6 foot curves/switches? Even if the mfg says 8' min.
3. Are there previous forums that may help in this quest?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

1 Aristo is the only plug and play units. no rubber tires 
2 I don't think so and you may kick off the car behind it. the Mac may do better . 
3 I to love road engines, see my videos on U-tube under NTCGRR 
if you want big engines you should have large enough curves. 
USAT is very detailed but I have a box of their broken parts almost full. 

Heres my 3 dash 9s








But to my surprise I don't have any photos of the 3 Macs

AH!!!! Found one


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd have to say that the USAT loco has more detail. its a good running loco as is the Aristo.


1 The USAT loco does not have battery plugs as the Aristo.

2 Neither likes 5 to 6 ft diameter track Need at least 8 ft. 
3 There may have been other threads here about these locos, due a search.

I have both and the USAT locos tend to have more of a swing when going around curves. I got rid of the traction ties on the USAT loco by replacing the driving wheels that do not have the traction tires. Run so much better. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to clarify, the parts Marty refers to are detail parts, and if you get a USAT loco, gluing on some of the detail parts when you get it will keep you from losing them. In particular air hoses on each end can pop off. USAT locos also typically come with different stacks depending on if you run smoke or not, and they are not glued in, they come loose in a bag. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I might add also is if you notice I run different roads and usually keep them with in the same manufacture so I don't have any concerns with different motor speeds or power draw. 

I love all the big diesels...


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys, we like both engines. Just got back from the BIG train show in Collinsville, IL. today! It was nice to see so many people show up this year. We picked up a train engineer for our very first battery powered conversion on a GP-38! I also learned about re-bending our 5 foot stuff to 8' with help from Ric and his trusty rail bender. Anyway, With the Dash-9 having plug and play, cheaper price etc. it may be the 1st choice. 
All I need is a box car with a receiver and batteries correct? = plug and play...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

no, the only plug and play in Aristo is in their socket, the QSI, the Digitrax and the (now discontinued) Aristo 75 mhz would be your plug and play choices. the QSI works on DC, DCC and AirWire, the Digitrax DC and DCC, and the Aristo, welll forget about it. 

You could buy the box car with most of the wiring complete from Aristo, and then add batteries, then you will be using their "trackside" train engineer, but with it in the boxcar. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Check out our club page at http://ovgrs.editme.com/BPIndex for some ideas on building battery or power cars and their interconnection to Aristo locos. Over the years, many of our members have built these cars. Resisent expert Paul Norton has written up many of the installations he has done.

Club members have used a variety of Aristo and RCS products for their radio/battery power. The Trackside TE is most often our choice for a power car especially when no sound is desired. The higher amperage capacity of the TE and its modest cost makes it ideal in these situations.

For self contained units, the preference of many members is RCS. It is a very well engineered piece of equipment and when sound is being considered, is a better choice than the Aristo (in my opinion).

We do not have experience with Airwire. The original system, as introduced, did not seem to offer us any advantages over RCS and it was more expensive as well as needing a new learning curve. At the moment, Paul has a Gwire and sound experiment started to give OVGRS members some idea of the cost and capabilities of this system.

Regards ... Doug


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a lot cheaper to build your own battery car than to buy the built up one from Aristo. later RJD


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

It is easy to add battery car plugs to a USAT GP38-2.























The plugs are inexpensive and are available from All Electronics under catalog number CON-240.
http://www.allelectronics.com/ 

To see complete instructions on how to add battery car plugs to a USAT GP38-2, just click on the link.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

While you can build a battery car with a boxcar, 

 

the easiest is a covered gondola.











Removing the snap on cover allows easy access to the receiver for programming and removal of the battery pack for charging. Replacing the cover hides the components and protects them from the elements. The ends of the gondola can also be folded down inside the car should extra cooling be required for the receiver.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

When you get more familiar with assembling battery cars, you could build a more prototypical Evans battery car for that Dash 9.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, IF hes meaning plug and play to the battery car. Take it out of the box, throw the "to battery switch" plug into battery car, and play.
Most regular battery power folks think that way. We like to help new folks step by step VS dumping too much info on them.

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11/29/2008 9:07 PM
no, the only plug and play in Aristo is in their socket, the QSI, the Digitrax and the (now discontinued) Aristo 75 mhz would be your plug and play choices. the QSI works on DC, DCC and AirWire, the Digitrax DC and DCC, and the Aristo, welll forget about it. 

You could buy the box car with most of the wiring complete from Aristo, and then add batteries, then you will be using their "trackside" train engineer, but with it in the boxcar. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

This is the very site that convinced me to pick up the TE and convert my GP-38 to Battery! Once I have one of these cars I can use it on a Dash-9 correct? Or any other engines I modify with these plugs correct? 
Now that I have a TE 27mhz, what is THE BEST choice for battery packs? Price considered of course...


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Could we get the "HOW-to battery power a USAT MAC-70" on the OVGRS site?


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, you can use a battery car with any locomotive that has a battery car plug added. The Dash 9 and most modern Aristo-Craft locomotives have the plugs and a switch to toggle between track power and battery power. It is easy to add battery car plugs to USA Trains diesels, but you do have to unplug the track power pick-ups or the results could be electronically catastrophic.












A track power/battery power switch could be added, but it can be complicated.












I installed the switch for a friend in his F3A and he has never used it in track power mode. Once you use battery power you probably won’t go back to track power.

The battery question is a can of worms, as everyone has their own preferences.

I used Ni-Cad battery packs in my first battery car in 1995.












They provided 1 3/4 hours of run time and lasted for years. These Ni-Cads did have to be completely discharged before being recharged.

When NiMH batteries became available at a reasonable price, I made my own battery packs with them.












These packs provided 3 1/2 hours of run time, could be topped up without discharging and are still in service.

When the Aristo-Craft lithium-ion battery packs and chargers became available I began to use them as it is easier to wire one battery pack than two.












These packs have had their problems however. The first generation packs would not charge properly and had to be replaced with second generation packs. Early this year, about the same time Aristo-Craft released their battery car, the third generation packs were released and found to be incompatible with the TE receiver. There were replaced with fourth generation packs, but the price increased by 50 percent.

I like the lithium-ion packs because they are small enough to fit in most fuel tanks, and I will continue to use them for on-board power conversions.












But given their history and hefty price tag, you may want to consider something else.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 11/30/2008 10:41 AM
Could we get the "HOW-to battery power a USAT MAC-70" on the OVGRS site?


The article on how to add battery power car plugs to a USAT SD-70 MAC is already on the OVGRS web site. Here is a short video of it running with a covered gondola power car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BA6wyflEo

To view the article, just click on the link. USAT SD-70 MAC

I have not converted this or my Dash 9 to on-board battery power and radio control yet; too many other projects to complete first. They are now powered and controlled using my Evans powercar.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

WOW, you guys are the best! 

thank you 
thank you

Can you still find the lithium packs you show in the pics?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul s the man, he can help you slowly walk through this. This thread will probably be moved to batt forum now. 
All I know is two wires in two wires out... 
As you can see in my photos, you can make any car you want into a batt car.
Don't let these folks bug you about draging a batt car around. I do eveytime you pull a consist. My self contain locos do the switching. Thats your next growth level.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep you can make any battery car you want but if you want verity then you are going to spend more bucks. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually Marty, I was trying to put over the point that there are a lot of options if someone is starting out. Making a good decision to start is important. When he asked about plug and play, there are options. 

Not putting Aristo down, but why would someone buy the 27 MHz Train Engineer with it being obsoleted next year with the new and much better system, that does "more than DCC"? (and DOES plug into the Aristo socket?) 

I know new people are anxious to get started, but I am so glad I did a few years figuring out what was right for me, rather than do something that did not fit my usage. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

New system next year? Promises of delivery and function can be very inexpensive. Delivery is another thing.


I'll believe it when I see it on the dealers shelves. It could be like the SD-9 that he promised to build for over 4 years.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not mean anything wrong toward you. And to be honest, I will wait and see how good the new product will be. There is still plunty of 5470s around and I am still using my oldest one yet. I have two new ones in stock.
I have friends still using the old, old metal box ones. We have not seen the price of them yet either.

I also tell new folks to buy old blue box engines even tho the new ones are better, simply because the cost is usually lower and helps them get started.


Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11/30/2008 6:21 PM
Actually Marty, I was trying to put over the point that there are a lot of options if someone is starting out. Making a good decision to start is important. When he asked about plug and play, there are options. 

Not putting Aristo down, but why would someone buy the 27 MHz Train Engineer with it being obsoleted next year with the new and much better system, that does "more than DCC"? (and DOES plug into the Aristo socket?) 

I know new people are anxious to get started, but I am so glad I did a few years figuring out what was right for me, rather than do something that did not fit my usage. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

.......or the 27 hz "daughter" pcb for the 75 Mhz system.


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

Not putting Aristo down, but why would someone buy the 27 MHz Train Engineer with it being obsoleted next year with the new and much better system, that does "more than DCC"? (and DOES plug into the Aristo socket?) 

Regards, Greg

Is the 27 MHz trackside Train Engineer going be discontinued, or just the on-board 75 MHz receiver?

After introducing a battery car this year using the trackside TE, it would seem strange to discontinue it.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I can't find the battery car on Aristo's site anywhere...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If the new system is plug and play then you would no longer be using the 27 in a battery car just the battery. Maybe that is why he had a sale two for one to deplete the stock. Who knows time will tell. Later RJD


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## AndyC (Jan 2, 2008)

I know the 75 MHZ system is going away, because there are no more chips for them.... According to Lewis, last I heard, and that was at Springfield at the MWLSTS.... 

Nothing that I heard said the 27 mhz system was going away... There was a shortage of 27 systems a few years ago, because the company making the 27 mhz chips quit making them, but they found another company to produce the 27 mhz chips... 

The new system coming out is a 2.4 something system, I do believe.... 

for my 2 cents worth......... 

Andy


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

The Battery R/C car is still listed in the "on line store" under Power Packs.........Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to be the source of any false rumors. 

Lewis indicated he will continue the production of the 27 MHz trackside engineer system. My statement is that it is my _*opinion and personal choice *_that I would not recommend it to people starting out until they consider and evaluate if the new Aristo system is appropriate for them. 

Of course, how long the old TE system is manufactured is governed by many things like parts availability, popularity, cost to produce, and what market share the new TE system takes. 

We shall see what transpires. 

Regards, Greg


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 12/01/2008 11:05 AM
I can't find the battery car on Aristo's site anywhere... 

Do not look at the Aristo on-line catalogue. It isn't there, which maybe where you looked. Look instead at the on-line STORE. There is no need to Log-In.

Type in CRE55497 in ITEM SEARCH. The battery ca rCRE55497, without battery, will appear. It is in stock it says, so a dealer could obtain one for you. The other version CRE55496 (with battery) is out of stock it appears.


Aristo have the other types of battery now in stock so maybe a call to Aristo would sort it all out for you. 


I believe the 27MHz. TE will still continue for some time as not everyone will need the newer version, especially those with small RRoads or shallow or empty pockets.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

$420!?!?!?!?[/b]


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

CRE 55497 is MRSP $150. What did you see?


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok......... battery car without the battery is $150- Same as what I just paid for the TE..... so it has the receiver installed but no battery, and you get a car, in which it does not show. I am sure the "dealers" offer a bit better pricing too?


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

The grand kids seam to catch on to the operation of the old Track Side TE. For us simple folk it does the job and I can see uses for the youngsters, to run that single train under the Xmas tree or a street car or railbus. I like sharing my trains with the kids and need to keep it simple for them to use...........Jim


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, you guess correctly. Dealers don't usually charge the MRSP, even over here! Trawl the web sites or get in touch with those who advertise in Garden Railways magazine. There are some good offers right now it seems.


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

The great thing Jim with the TE, as far as children are concerned, is that they can't speed the train from 0 - 100 mph as quickly on the TE as on a rotary transformer knob.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Alan, that's right. And if they throw it in reverse, it will stop it first before applying power for other direction. Not to much for them to memorize, button "D" for horn and "E" for bell when useing Aux Reciever to trigger sound. When your 3 years old, how much more do you need.........Jim


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

The trackside TE has been a reliable system since its introduction in 1995, and I hope they continue to make it. The new 2.4 GHz system promises to be a better product, but so did the 75 MHz system before it was introduced. After all the years it took me to get the promised range out of the 75 MHz receiver, I look forward to the new system with guarded optimism.

When ever anyone talks about trying radio control and battery power, I always recommend they build a simple power car first. Although I have built a number of different power cars, the covered gondola is definitely the easiest to assemble. There are only four wires: two for the battery pack plug and two for the MU plug. That’s no harder than hooking up two wires to a power pack and two wires the track. Everything is easily accessible and in plain sight. When a new member of our club looks at my gondola, they usually respond with “That’s looks easy, I can do that.” They can, and they do.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As I said you can still make your own a heck of a lot cheaper. And you have choices for cars to use for the battery car. later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

RJ, how many battery cars do you use??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think you have to own one to add up the cost to build one.... although I thought the price was close to what it would cost for the individual parts... I guess we could add it up. Sounds like a fun excercise.

Regards, Greg


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

RJ with battery....NEVER!


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