# Transformer distance question



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

In reading another post about transformers outside, I got the thinking and found a way to keep it inside, but it will be about 50-60 wire distance away. What size wire should I plan on to avoid loosing too much? Solid or stranded?

Thanks

Mickey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How much current will you draw? (or at least describe the locos that will run at the same time) 

Stranded is easier to deal with but more expensive and more subject to corrosion where exposed. 

The simple answer is BIG, as big as you can afford. 

Consider using 10 gauge solid and put in conduit. Then you can buy inexpensive wire used to wire a house, has thin insulation. 

You could also buy direct burial 10 gauge landscape wire, but I think you will find that is more expensive. 

The conduit gives you other options in the future, in my case I run air operated switches, so I could run air lines too. 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

In order to make this work, I have some buried conduit that just happens to go from attic down wall of master closet and out under the slab (4 feet off the ground). It was put there 18 years ago, 'just in case' I wanted something going out for the home automation. It never got used and just happened to see the stub out in the slab over the weekend. I also then happened to put another connecting piece when the hot-tub slab was poured that went under it, 'just in case' I ever needed to get from one side to the other with water, electrical, whatever, which I could attach to and end up by the train area. It would keep it all in conduit, protected and out of sight. Yes I tend to put in lots of odd "just in case" pipes, crawl spaces, access points, etc., when we originally built this house. I know me and life, so I always try to leave some options and they always seem to come in handy, much to the chagrin of my wife who always scoffs at my maybe some day will want....Only issue will be the piece in the wall. I will have to do close locate so I can cut an access port in the sheet rock, which wont be too hard, but the PVC is electrical 1/2" so wire size pulling that section will be tight as I want to also pull some other accessory wires for switches, etc. (since it's all low voltage) 'just in case' I may want to...... The rest of the sections are 1" so will be fine. 

As for engines, Bachman Spectrum Shay, Climax, Connie, 440. Not sure how many at a time, but would like to be able to have ability to play with 2 at a time, maybe 3 just to add excitement. The transformer is an Astron VS20M.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, go see the solid 10 gauge "thin" insulation at Home Depot, it's as thin as you can get, will leave the most space. 

Good idea on the conduit, I have 1-1/2 conduit through my house, saved my bacon a number of times! 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

You should see the tubes criss crossing the attic.. Wife thinks I'm crazy at times, but I've learned PVC is cheap and easy when done before and a pain in the ass if not done.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I would not recommend 10 gauge solid in 1/2 conduit. Get #10 THHN stranded. If other conductors are needed use 14 gauge stay with THHN it may get tight.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike why do you recommend stranded over solid? It's thicker so less space available. Are you worried about how hard it is to pull? 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I know the official number of wires allowed in 1/2" PVC conduit is 4 if using 10 ga. But that is when using as high voltage and they are taking into consideration heat dissipation. It would only be about an 8 foot section before I be able to transition to a larger diameter. I would rather err on the safe side, so I think I can make it work with the 10 ga plus accessory bundle. Thanks. For input guys.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That "official number" is for high voltage only, not low voltage... You can do ANYTHING you want with low voltage... mix track power, Ethernet, phone lines, video, etc. 

Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey

I did note that you stated the types of locomotives you'll be running on you layout will be Bachmann Shay, Climax, Connie, and 4-4-0, which are not usually run at high speeds typically, such as more modern equipment is.

However, in looking at the power supply you mentioned that you'll be using the Astron VS20M, I noticed that you'll be starting at 13.8V @ 16A continuous (20A Intermittent, 50% duty) going into whatever throttle/control system you're planning on using. You might find that with any voltage drop(s) along the way may hamper your train operation (running slower than you want at full throttle). You might consider getting and using instead one of the Mean Well 24V switched power supplies that Mr. Elmassian recommends.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Nothing against the Meanwell, but 13.8 volts (even with losing a volt or two due to electronics, resistance, etc.) will still be adequate to run those particular locos at a prototypical speed. I've never used more than 14.8 volt batteries in my locos (many of the same ones), and seldom do I go above 60% on the throttle. The lower source voltage may mean that you're going to be running at 80% throttle for a reasonable scale speed, but I don't think you're going to find the top end lacking. 

What is "THHN" wire? Is that different from common Romex or similar? 

Later, 

K


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin

On the wire.

Understanding THHN Wire[/b]


On the Power Supply, I agree with what you're saying that his current supply should work well for him, just thought I'd mention it for future reference. In case he acquires maybe some LGB equipment or some more modern type equipment down the road.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The #10 may be slightly smaller but the problem will be pulling around a small diameter bend. The stranded is much more flexible and will pull easier around bends. A wire pulling lubricant would also help a bunch. The person feeding on a hard pull makes the difference, he needs to keep things straight and a slight push will help get things around the first bend.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Mike, you offering? ??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, I may be wrong, but seems to be a straight shot and the problem is distance. So I figured the number of bends might be minimal. 

There was also a concern for room in the conduit, so was choosing thinner wire od. 

Another issue, stranded wire corrodes much more easily... big problem is that water can get inside and sit in the jacket easily because of the little spaces between the strands. It's VERY difficult to waterproof the end of the wire unless you solder it, and then silicon it right where the soldered part enters the jacket.. and then you lose the flexibility at that point. 

Also I have first hand experience with this on my layout. I do have conduit, I do run track power, I did use stranded at first and I did suffer problems that were caused by water getting in between the strands, and I do run significant distances with the wire and I run high current. Oh, my wiring is in 1/2" conduit. 

So, maybe you have not experienced these issues. Do you have track power, 10 gauge stranded outside? 1/2 inc conduit? 

I'm trying to avoid problems here. A little extra effort to pull the wire once vs. long life and lower cost and a bit more space in the conduit. 

If there were a lot of bends, then I'd possibly go with stranded, but I won't ever use it again outside. 

Regards, Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

All stranded wire is not made up of the same gauge of individual strands. You may have experience with a fine wire like welding cable is made of. These small strands are in the direct burial low voltage lighting wire sold at box stores. Standard building wire is made of fewer larger strands. It is hard to say how difficult this instillation may be without getting started. I am speaking from 35 years installing 100's of thousands of feet of wire in underground conduit.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm talking the same stranded 10 gauge stuff as you are... the standard building wire. The finer landscape wiring is even more susceptible. I do understand. 

The problem I'm talking about is corrosion where the wire comes out and connects. 

I hear your 35 years of experience running wires in conduits, but how many of those installations had a bare wire coming out and connecting to a metal rail outside, unprotected? 

I'm just trying to give really safe advice, some people will have no problems, others will have the strands corrode away very easily. (like what happened to me) 

I really need to replace all my wire. 

Again, what's a few more grunts in pulling vs. a nice solid chunk of copper that will connect and conduct better? 

If the only argument for stranded is that it will pull easier, we should ask the OP how many bends there are in the conduit run? If it's one or two, then it's a moot point. 

Is that a fair assessment? 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Sounds good. 

I do run track power.

Used all #14 stranded, short runs. Only been out 6 years. No corrosion.

If I thought it would be a difficult pull I wouldn't have a problem running parallel 14's. You would argue more chance of problems. Probably correct. With power wiring small conductors not permitted.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We have high mineral content in the water in San Diego. I also run constant track power at 24 volts. I'm one mile from the ocean. 

So probably worst case. You probably live where the water is pure, no salt in the air, and not constant track voltage and not 24 volts. 

But, when I give advice, especially to a beginner, I try to give the highest chance of success, and least problems to a beginner. 

I also have the opinion that overbuilding the foundation of your layout a bit is good insurance. Heavier gauge wire, more feeders, etc. 

Again, a personal opinion, but I believe that we want to do all we can to guarantee the initial experience is good... so many people get disappointed early and give up. 

Sorry for the personal diatribe. 

greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, I'm confused... You're making the argument that solid wire is superior to stranded, and will give long, more reliable service. Then you say you have to replace all your wires. Can you clarify? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Because I used stranded at first, and all the downsides are what I have experienced. 

Because I have multiple feeders, I still have power, but this summer all the stranded will be swapped out for solid. 

When you consider the amount of surface area of stranded vs. solid, you see how oxidation and corrosion is worse for stranded. 

I used stranded at first for ease of pulling and flexibility. Well I learned my lesson. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks. I read it as you needing to replace your solid stuff, which didn't sound like any less work than using stranded wire. 

Later, 

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I installed stranded outdoor low voltage wire in 2002 on my RR and have not seen any corrosion. 
However, the ocean is 40 miles away from me. 

My low voltage lights on my sidewalk is over 20 years old, no problems there either.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right Dan, but again, like the example of wire in conduit, where the wire is EXPOSED to the elements it can be subject to corrosion. 

I have 10 transformers powering my landscape lighting, i.e. I have an extensive system of low voltage lighting, but ALL landscape lighting is designed to NOT have EXPOSED bare wire, so that example means nothing. 

Dan, just to understand, how did you treat and protect your stranded wire where it is exposed to the elements on your railroad? 

It seems awfully hard to get this point across, but for the people who live where there is mineral laden water, salt air, corrosive components in the soil, or alkaline ballast, they learn quickly how stranded will not last nearly as long. 

Isn't the idea here to share experiences and help a beginner avoid problems?

I can't guarantee that people will have problems with exposed stranded wire, but I WILL guarantee that it won't last as long exposed to the elements, and in some cases will go bad in 5 years or so.

My philosophy is why gamble? The slight additional effort to pull solid is what I should have done. I wish someone with experience had told me this at first.

Greg


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

Just a dumb question but why not solder on solid wire leaders on to the ends of your stranded wire Greg? Then heat shrink the joints for a good water tight seal. Instead of going through all the cost and work of replacing all that wire you have installed. Just a thought. 
The Roundhouse RnR


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Heat shrink won't do it unless you have the "sealant filled" heat shrink AND you solder the strands solid. 

The problem is that the water has run down the little gaps between strands and corroded/oxidized the wire a number of inches down. 

But the other issue is the soldered wire... now you have copper, tin, lead, and whatever metal the clamp is made of. Solder does worse in a corrosive / oxidizing environment than copper. 

I'm just going to run solid and clamp it directly the the split jaw clamp designed to use the wire directly, no solder, no terminals, nothing extra over the clamp and the wire. Appearance is a bit important to me too. 

I could solder a jumper like you say, but then with the current I run, and the fact I have stainless, I want to minimize voltage drops, and every connection causes a voltage drop. 

My conduit comes out right next to the track, so concealment of a loop of wire would not be nice. 

I'm willing to re-pull the wires, I have it set up to put "surface" every 30 feet or so, and each pull only has 2 sweeps, (like it's supposed to be designed, minimize them) so it's no big deal to do. 

All I'm saying is that the small extra work of pulling solid is the only "con" for many "pros", and I wish someone had pointed this stuff out to me when I started 9 years ago. 

Greg


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

I guess that was my next question was how far does the wire corrode down inside the insulation. I have seen it maybe an inch or so past the insulation but never that far. 

I think the big factor is the sea air. I have had my share of experience in buying older cars from areas where moisture and salt are present. My brother picked up a CJ7 from jersey and the only thing original on it when he sold it was the frame and axles. Everything else was rotted out, beyond reasonable repair. 

The task of replacing all the wire is a real bummer, but has to be done the way it sounds. I don't have experience with stainless , but from what I know makes sence in your situation. 

The Roundhouse RnR


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, I defiantly agree that salt and mineral content would affect corrosion. Are you saying that voltage and current on the wire have a corrosion effect.


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Even though it is designed for aluminum conductors it also works well keeping copper conductors from corrosion: 
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/ideal-noalox-4-oz-anti-oxidant-compound-30-026.html 

I used it at every wire connection and every track connection using rail clamps. 
On my outdoor layout I had for 10 years I never had a issue with any wire connection, and I live less then a mile away from the ocean. 
I will be using it again on my new layout that hopefully will get started this spring. 

Also, regarding wire size.. 
On my old layout my transformers (2- control master 20's) were located inside my house, the distance to the layout was about 40' until the first track connection and all I used was 12ga stranded thhn. 
Again, never had any issues with getting enough voltage to the layout to operate my engines (all types/sizes) 
I would also strongly suggest using stranded wire, it will make life much easier. 

Have fun, 
Vinny


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The movement of electrons will hasten corrosion, normally it's current, not voltage, that is causing the effect. 

This can get pretty complex if you were dealing with high voltages. 

Higher currents move more electrons, and in the presence of an electrolyte (for example ionized water) will etch away material more quickly. 

If there is no electrolyte (for example pure distilled water) there would be no such action. 

It's sort of like the plating process where an electrical current move molecules of metal from one plate to another. (I have to remember, I believe from anode to cathode) 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I use 14 gauge "Malibu" wire for the trains and 16 gauge Malibu wire for the accessories. I live ~15 miles from the beach. I don't get "corrosion" so much as a black oxidized film that forms on the strands. This film travels pretty much throughout the wire..., way past where "wicking" would be expected to occur. Furthermore, it is ALWAYS worse on one wire than the other, so it goes beyond simple corrosion.

You can't solder to this coating and if you want to solder one of these wires, you must first treat it or rub it with sand paper to re-expose the copper. But, if you did solder to the wire when it was "clean," you can resolder at this joint as the solder protects the wire.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

So with all this discussion, I keep thinking why I would have used only 1/2" 18 years ago for that possible access (being buried in the Sheetrock wall and outside cement slab). Just didn't seem like me. So I went back and double checked by sticking my finger in the hole and it was too loose to be 1/2" and just to verify it, I got sample pieces of both 1/2" and 3/4" to stick in. Turns out it was 3/4" so I have more room to play and is more like what I would have expected from me 18 years ago. Now I can home run 2 sets of feeders plus multi part acessories/switch wires.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Good news. PVC is cheap and easy to run. Doesn't corrode either.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, I've noticed that black "film" in your pictures. (pictures of your stranded jumpers on track) Every location seems to have different effects on metal it seems. 

Can you relate the "worse" side with a DC polarity? 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Would have to check into it. Also remember that I reverse polarity on a regular basis. But the really interesting thing is that I get this same residue more on one wire on my low voltage a/c circuits too.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Look close at the low voltage wire, some have different colors on the 2 leads, one is copper/brass colored, the other had more of a silver color on some of mine. 
I would assume the silver colored did not tarnish as fast. 

Other low voltage wire had one side of the insulator ribbed so I used the ribbed side as the common and the non-ribbed as Hot.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Feb 2013 10:25 PM 
Todd, I've noticed that black "film" in your pictures. (pictures of your stranded jumpers on track) Every location seems to have different effects on metal it seems. 

Greg 

It's not the jumpers that show the "film." What you see in those pics is simple corrosion from the thrice daily watering cycle. You only see the black film when you peel back the Malibu insulation.

I also thought that it may have to do with the wire's "tinning," but I don't think this wire is tinned.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Getting ready to make the connection thru this PVC. But I just thought about something. With all this brass laying on the ground, is this gonna become a possible lightening magnet? Since I'm wanting to keep this as easy as reasonable to start every time, the power supply will be hooked up all the time. All I have to do is go in the closet and turn it on. But that leaves it vulnerable to lightening. So I thought about a simple throw switch along the lines of the dr frankenstine pull lever (if you know what I mean) just a little smaller. That way the circuit is not connected when not in use and easy to see. But my febile attempts at google have not produces since I have no idea wha it's called. What does everyone else use? Am I over thinking this?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Lightning can jump many MILES... what will a couple of inches in a small knife switch do?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

It is not a bad idea to disconnect electronics during lightning storms. Utilities coming into your home can and do provide a path into you home, power, phone, cable all are potential paths. You are thinking of an old fashion knife switch.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I know from a past experience and $5,000 in expense for the insurance company, that lightening can do funny things like take out VCR but not the tv even if all on the same plug. I even had a whole house surge protector at the main panel and individual expensive surge strips, but did not prevent it. And those $50,000 in coverage are not worth the printed paper. Fortunately, my home owners was good. But I did learn that things unplugged are better off. So when home and storms come, I unplug computers. A direct hit can blow the side of your wall off and no an inch won't make a difference. It's the surge that gets the electronics (assuming youn don't have the direct type). Knife switch is the term. Thanks.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey, just unplugging a tv does not help a lot as the mainstream input needs to be unplugged be it an antenna, cable form the internet provider or what ever else brings the signal in from the outside. 

Remember that lightning starts in a cloud high up in the sky and travels a mile or more to get to you, so a 2 inch knife switch is not much of a disconnect, nor is just unplugging something. 

A lightning rod is better as it gives an alternate direct path for the surge of energy.


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Greg, 

If you get a chance would love to see some pictures of how your wiring and connection looks. If you get a chance take a picture of where it comes from your conduit and connects to the track. Always looking to see how others do things.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll post pix after the wire swap... you can see some of the wiring on my site under"layout progresd and development"


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