# Pond Design



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

We have decided that our layout is going to have a water feature. I sort of have it roughed out but I am hesitant on what to do next. Right now it is a hole and a dry stream bed, the ground below the layout drains quite well so it won't fill up with water.


The plan is to have a small pond at one end which will feed a canal running through the middle, into another smaller pond and then over a waterfall to what may be an preformed pond (not at all sure about that). Also the canal is going to have one lock, based roughly on the Ohio Erie Canal design.



I am trying to decide whether I want to do the whole mess using rubber pond liners or line it with concrete. We live in Central Alabama so hard freezes are very rare. The part about the concrete that scares me is that it tends to be pretty permanent and I tend to adjust things as I go along, especially if it doesn't work perfectly the first time (most of the time this is the case).

The portion of the layout that will include the pond is filled with "top soil" which to me resembles a lot of sand mixed with a little clay as a binder (it is not what my Northern notion of top soil which would include lots of organic matter). The soil seems to be pretty good at staying put, although it will erode if it rains hard enough and the slope is steep enough. It has served well as the basic building material for the layout.


If I do concrete, how thick do I need to make it? Any recommendations on the type of concrete, or quickcrete? What is recommended for sealing it?

If I do the liner, I noticed in previous posts that you don't want to walk on it, what are the other issues with it? I am also sure our dog will walk through it. I do have some spare carpet that I could use as underlayment if that is appropriate. For the canal, how do you join the sections together so that they don't leak?


Tom


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

IMHPO (in my humble professional opinion) nothing is better than 45 mil EPDM rubber for ponds. I have never seen one puncture yet even with heron and raccoon attacks. I walk on them all the time. It is possible, of course, to puncture one but it usually takes something very sharp and deliberate to. 
IMPHO, preformed ponds look exactly like they are, preformed and all the same. 
Concrete is great for professionally installed swimming pools (usually a rebar frame surfaced with shotcrete) but usually just hassles for everyone else. 

-Brian


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I like to use concrete and/or mortar mix. From 1/2"-1" thick is fine and you can walk on it. I use chicken wire for slopes to help hold it in place. I also use real rocks to enhance/blend the appearance. I use crinkled aluminum foil for texture.

Areas that are to hold water are first painted with DryLock waterproofing paint. Color is added with rattle cans. I use a pump and float switch to drain the lake of standing water twice a day when the sprinklers come on. If I ever wanted to remove it or a piece so I could enlarge it, a sledge hammer would make short work of the mortar.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've built a couple ponds with 45 mil rubber. It's extremely durable as Brian says. I've had one down for 9 years now with zero trouble. We have fish in ours--goldfish bought for 25 cents each. The oldest one is seven years old. We get new fish every year


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Your plans sounds similar to the water feature in my layout, You might get some inspiration by looking at some photos on my website.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~daisybeach/


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Pond liner. Concrete will leak, it is just a matter of time.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 23 Mar 2010 09:54 AM 
Pond liner. Concrete will leak, it is just a matter of time. 

And can easily be fixed with DryLock hydraulic cement.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure, but if you have fish, the drylock runs a good chance of spiking the PH and the mineral content and killing the fish. If no fish, then concrete is maybe a better option imho


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Be sure your lower pond can hold all the water in the stream as well as its usual contents. If there's a power failure, the streams will drain into the lower pond. If it overflows, you might not have enough water when the power comes back on and your pump fills the stream back up.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had a pond liner in mine for 14 years and it's doing fine.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

My wife was looking over my shoulder and said she wants fish ... that possibly rules out the concrete. 

When doing a typical pond liner there is always some form of a cap that runs around the top to finish off and hide the liner. 

I want it to look more natural so how do you hide the liner? At least one side will have a dock which should help but that leaves 2 sides and the mouth of the canal. Maybe cover the edges with gravel?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The edge is always the hard part with a liner. I built our pond before I built the RR: ours has a formal edge because I knew kids would be climbing over it and I wanted a solid foundation. You can dig the pond, then dig a shallow trench outside the top edge of the pond, then drape the liner over the top edge, lay it in the trench, and backfill with soil/rocks. You could make a concrete edge.

concrete will work with fish, but it needs time, as I recall--you need to fill it, let it sit, drain it and refill it. But if it's just as the edge,it should not matter much


With ponds, the bigger they are, within reason, the easier they are to maintain. We probably have 500 gallons in our 5X7 pond, with a simple mechanical filter and a lot of submerged grasses. After the first month of so, the PH settled and I do very little to it. Change the foam in the filter. feed the fish for fun.


your regular old mutt goldfish--"feeders,"they sometimes call them--are really a pretty marvelous creature--they are fun to look at and tough and hardy. As long as we keep a small spot of open water during winter freezes, they do just fine.


You need sun to have fish--4-5 hours of full sun or more. That way plants can grow to use up the fish wastes and starve out algea


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If you have varmits in the area, think long and hard about fish before you make that decision. We have racoons, ferrets, herons, etc. come into our yard and I would hate for them to destroy my trestles and bridges for a tidbit.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 23 Mar 2010 09:56 PM 


your regular old mutt goldfish--"feeders,"they sometimes call them--are really a pretty marvelous creature--they are fun to look at and tough and hardy. As long as we keep a small spot of open water during winter freezes, they do just fine.





If you live in the North..thats only true if the pond is big enough!
around here, (Western NY) you need at least 3 feet deep, minimum..

I just inherited my Parents large plastic pond..drove it up to Rochester last weekend:











its 8 foot long, 5 feet wide, and about 2 feet deep..
(im not sure how many gallons..500 maybe? its about the largest of the "pre formed" ponds you can buy)
But I do know it isnt NEARLY large enough to overwinter goldfish outdoors..
even if a pump is kept running all winter..
the pond will freeze solid straight to the bottom..

every Spring, for the last 10 years, I helped my parents clean out the pond..
the goldfish get taken indoors in the fall, placed in a large 55 gallon aquarium..
Frogs are not smart enough to understand the pond isnt big enough for them 
they attempt to hibernate in the pond..
every winter, as the pond slowly freezes solid to the bottom, the sleeping frogs quietly pass away..
every spring there are 4 or 5 fairly large dead frog carcasses to remove.









From now on, im going to cover the pond with netting in September, after the fish are removed and put back indoors..
to prevent autumn leaves from filling the pond.
and to maybe prevent frogs from seeking it out for a winter resting spot..
I will just leave the netting in place until Spring..

Scot


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I lapped the pond liner over the edge a couple of feet, filled it then put down some concrete that I set flagstones into, overlapping the edge some.


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## unimog (Apr 21, 2008)

I created a bench on the inside of the pond. The liner(with a "felt" underliner) comes up the bench over the edge and then slightly down in a trench. The bench is just below the waterlevel. Flagstones are stacked on the bench and when they reach the height of the edge, wider flagstones are used. Except underwater, the liner is never seen. If the area immediatly around the pond is slightly lower, runoff will not enter the pond. While you need water for your pond, you do not want runoff. You want to control what goes in. We all start with some goldfish and then come the Koi. Water quality gets very important. Have fun.
Ti


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's so much easier to dig a hole to the appropriate depth. Mine is nearly 3 feet at the deep end, just to make sure. But the pond does not have to freeze solid to kill the fish--if it freezes over , then air and methane exchange stops, and in a small pond the fish die as the water turns toxic. We had it happen--the pond did not freeze solid, but it iced over for a long stretch, and we lost a number of fish.

We typically get several weeks a year with nights in the teens, days in the 20s. if I keep the pump running, it does not freeze over. I know western NY is colder, but will a 2 foot pond freeze solid if the water is kept circulating?


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm in southwest Michigan and have two preformed ponds that are less that two feet deep. I put fish in at least 5 years ago and they are still doing well. I just keep a small pump running all winter and the pond never totally freezes over. We usually get several days below zero each year. As long as I keep the water moving it does not totally freeze over and certainly not solid. The upper pond has no fish in it and I didn't keep it open the previous winter and of course it did freeze on the top, but not solid. That of course killed the frogs that tried to spend the winter in it. The frogs in the lower pond with the fish and the moving water did fine.

Bob


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 24 Mar 2010 10:58 AM 
It's so much easier to dig a hole to the appropriate depth. Mine is nearly 3 feet at the deep end, just to make sure. But the pond does not have to freeze solid to kill the fish--if it freezes over , then air and methane exchange stops, and in a small pond the fish die as the water turns toxic. We had it happen--the pond did not freeze solid, but it iced over for a long stretch, and we lost a number of fish.

We typically get several weeks a year with nights in the teens, days in the 20s. if I keep the pump running, it does not freeze over. I know western NY is colder, but will a 2 foot pond freeze solid if the water is kept circulating? 








Good point about the water freezing over..
you need to keep open water for gas exchange..otherwise the fish can literally suffocate..
(this doesnt happen in large natural bodies of water, that freeze over, because the volume of water is SO large that the fish cant use up all the oxygen..
but in a small pond, it can happen quickly)

also, if it *does* freeze over, and you have fish in the pond, dont open up a hole by banging on the ice with a hammer!
even if its thin ice..
the blows to the ice can create "shock waves" (or something to that effect) that can kill the fish..

you should boil a pot of water, then sit the pot of hot water on the ice, and let it melt a hole through..

Scot


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

If I use the pond liner material, do I have to keep water in it so that the liner doesn't die? We are in central Alabama and we get a lot of sun through the summer and it gets pretty hot during the day. I could put the liner down and then cover it with fine gravel to protect it from the sun. 

As I build the layout, I try to do each section in stages. I start with getting the concept down, do a rough implementation (most important is to get the track laid and the trains running), and the refine it as I go along. Right now the water feature is going to be pretty dry, I have put down landscaping fabric so that I don't have to worry about erosion from the next heavy rain. My next step will probably happen later in the spring, I will be to dig it out a little deeper and get the water way approaching level or with a constant slope and add the liner, towpath, and lock for the canal. 

I am thinking of allowing it to be dry when when not running the trains, at least for this summer. Next year I may add a larger pool for the water feature to drain into and recirculate the water back up to the beginning so that there is some motion.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've used Toddalin's method (nice job BTW). I go 2" vice his 1". Ensure gravel is under the concrete. Reduces chances of cracking, but like he said, it can be patched pretty well. The beauty of concrete is you can, as he said, color it and go shallow. EPFM will always be black unless you throw some sand and pebbles over it to hide it. I just enjoy working w/concrete. Understand if it's not your cup of tea. 

As for fish, I don't have any and don't plan to. From what I've read. You wouldn't want to place fish in a newly formed concrete pond, but you can purchase some protective coatings to stop lime leach. And, over time, the concrete by itself should stabilize enough not to cause leaching. And you could check the chemical content of the water besides.

Todd, you mention draining the pond twice daily. Not sure I understand why.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

oh, forgot to mention, that Pete's layout and website are awesome!


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

here's my concrete pond. Note it is shallow. Also, I didn't use any rattle paint. Concrete is about 2" thick and chicken wire is used to reinforce it. Also, my stream was built the same way


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By SE18 on 16 Apr 2010 05:17 AM 

Todd, you mention draining the pond twice daily. Not sure I understand why. 





The sprinklers come on twice a day and leave standing water in the lake. The float switch drains this standing water to ensure that bugs don't roost and mosquitos don't grow. A small piece of chlorine easily handles these duties.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

my 2 cents 

i have fish-and have been dealing with my koi pond for about 15 years 



  and i have a fiberglass pond-it looks phony --its about 2000 gal-its big enough to bridge over-id say about 20 x 8 and 3 feet deep-has been sprayed with a graded shading-goes from stone to dark -looks deeper than it is and looks nice but for the edges when they are uncovred


otoh-its fucntional and i have lined as well as covered the protruding edges with attractive moss rock and it fits into the garden  

and i deal with freezes and sun and herons racoons foxes etc 

some thoughts 
you need a great pump to keep the water circulating-good ones are pricey-you might even want two-one to pump and one for a fountain (adds air and helps to clean bacteria with UV from the sky) 

-you will likely need a filter system ( to clean fish waste) 

 -and possibly a skimmer (really nice but not essential)-skimmers removethe floating crap instead of you using a net-also a pond vacuum is great for leaves and all the crap that settles into the bottom -whcih should be covered with gravel (this also acts as a bacterial filer for waste-but needs to be maintained  

you cannot add stuff to the water when you have fish-before i had fish and plants i added pool shock and everything went from brown to clear and clean-easy 

  fish take care and feeding and they die from time to time-i suggest inexpensive ones to start-my first 2 koi were about 4 each at pets mart-they were about 3 inches-they are now about 24-koi can live 30 years -they are pretty hardy- now have about a dozen -and add a couple every year to replace the murdered ones  

algae will likely grow at some point-or every year-its a pain 
underwater lights are nice 

steep sides tend to make it harder for critters to get your fish, as well as hiding places such as rock grottos or bridges (full sized) 
the ponds should be fairly deep to for the benefit of the fish at least 2.5 and better 3 feet 

  trees can shade and hide the pond-this can be an issue as to water temp as well as herons 

i live in Colorado-water plants add to the pond aesthetically and help the water 

i like your plans-perhaps you could have two ponds and a dummy canal to start-filled with water but not actually cicrculating-to be changed later if you like-i think a connecting cancal is cool but i suggest that it might be a technical challenge 

and i think a liner may be the best-they certainly look the most natural 

but if you really do change things a lot-you might start with a ready made pond set and see how you like it 

sound like a pain?-it is- 
and a bit expensive-high quality pond stuff is-the best however lasts for years and uses less juice 

but they are also a great deal of fun-my small pond usually takes a full day and sometimes 2 each spring to set up and clean -and then weekly clean up-fish are there all year and the main pump runs constantly 


around january we typically get to -10to as far down as -25 for a week or two-i use a stock pond heater (1500 w)  or two to keep things nice-they will keep a hole open-pump keeps a running too-and theres a hole near the water entry point






just so you know 






but not to deter you- started with the pond, two fish and a fountain pump that moved a lot of water-it was a submesible sump pump-i acquired all the other stuff over the years-pnd pumps are what you should use with fish BTW-not sump pumps






GFIis are really a nice thing too-






ponds and fish are wonderful-truly-and in a warm climate you could create youre own little amazon-ive seen gorgeous warm climate koi ponds with canals that are choked with algae and just the coolest looking feature 






you can teach koi to eat from your hand too-astound your friends!


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, all great information. I really like your ideas and methods Toddalin. I'm not putting a body of water in my current layout, but I may in the next one once we relocate to a larger piece pf property..(much larger)..


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

Well the water feature that runs through the layout is roughed out. It still needs leveling, there is a low spot under the bridge in the middle. I put down landscape fabric and then the rocks so that it will be easy to adjust when I am ready to go to the next step.

I priced out decent pumps and liner and decided that it was going to have to wait until fall.


My plan is to build the lock and figure out how locate it, that's when I'll put the liner under the river. After I am happy with all that, I will figure out what the pond at the one end of the layout will look like and how to construct that.


Here is a shot of "Rocky River" as it currently looks (dry stream bed):











I am figuring that it will need to get a bit deeper at both ends when I get to the point of putting water in it and there needs to be a little more room under both bridges. The larger pond will be at this end, pretty much at ground level (that is a major project since ground level is essentially a gravel pit). 

I have had this thought of putting the lock between the two bridges and have the water exit the layout at pond level, the only problem with that is I will loose the "falls".

Tom


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

That looks good, Tom. 

Too bad your wife wants fish or it would be easy to create a recirculating stream with what you have there. 

ps: Thanks for the props SE18


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