# legal advise on use of tradenames on model buildings



## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Guess, this could be posted on Buildings forum as well, but my question is, Is is ok, to put trademarked names on our buildings?
and should we obtain permission first. My Railroad, is very small and basically for my use only. For instance, im currently building
a pizzaeria, which i want to name after my favorite pizza chain, Rocky Rocco's based out of Wisconsin. I could just name it Rocky's.
Wondering what others have done in the past to imortalize our fav. places.

Thanks and have a great day.
Greg R.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

If you make one for your own use and amusement, nobody will mind and they'll likely be amused. If you make one for public viewing, you'll need permission. If you make them for sale, they might get upset.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg 

BTW it is Rocky Rococo.. not Rocco 

Not a legal opinion... just common sense and prior practice..... 

Lets see: 
a] one time personal use 
b] NO reproduction for distribution [free or for sale] 
c] used on a model, not a full sized building 

Don't see any infringement of trademark. Change any of [a,b,c] and it is a different kettle of fish. 

If you send Rocky Rococo's a picture, make sure it is very clear that it is a model by placing a common object in the field of view that makes it abundantly clear. 

Back in the 1950s, now world famous photographer, builder, and author John Allen built an H0 model of a lumber yard and used the name of a local lumber company on it. After it was installed on his layout, he sent photos of it to the REAL company. They did not realize it was a model and responded by having their lawyer send a "cease and desist" letter demanding that he change the name of his company. 

Question to you... are you planning to use the actual logo or just the name? If you are just using the name... remember it was pirated from Firesign Theatre's Nick Danger:Third Eye detective series.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Jim, I was planning on using their logo from a pizza box i have. and laminating the cardboard. And yes, one time use, for my railroad and me and my family's enjoyment. 
Thanks for the help. 
Greg R. 
GLATR RR. 
Martelle Iowa


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg 

Suggestion. Take a photo of the logo on the box. Then you can resize it to exactly what you want, make sure the colors are perfect, and print it on high quality photo paper. Laminate that. If it deteriorates outside in the weather, you can make another one.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Or just drive up to Wisconsin (2 hour drive to Madison) and eat more.....Yum. 
But that is a good idea. 
Thanks 
Greg R.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

My wife used to sew stuffed animals and had a pattern for "Care Bears"... small, cute, bear-like animals with a round patch on their tummy with some symbol of "care" in it; a heart, rainbow, flower, etc. She sold them at garage sales and church bazaars, etc. 

She decided to put the symbol of the local university on one and when she put it out for sale the 1st person to see it asked if it was under license. They then told her that she would be getting a letter from the university explaining the terms for commercial use of the logo. I don't remember the numbers in that letter, but I remember thinking I would probably have to mortgage my house to get the license and she would have to double the price of the bears to cover the PER USE cost of the logo just to break even. 

I called to see about personal use and if "non-profit use" was allowed and was told that we could use the logo all we wanted for ourselves... I could even paint it on my roof, but if I sold the house with the logo on it, they got a percentage of the SALE PRICE (not just the profit!) and 'non-profit' use still required licensing, but would need to be a government approved agency and quartly reports to them about all the sales. It could also be used by non-profits at free events, but only with prior approval. 

They also warned that private use might be subject to legal action if the usage put the university in a "bad light", so no obscene or derogatory depictions were allowed and it was up to them to define what was obscene or derogatory and the court would probably side with them. 

That bear got a new tummy patch.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 09 Jan 2013 10:55 AM 
Greg 

Suggestion. Take a photo of the logo on the box. Then you can resize it to exactly what you want, make sure the colors are perfect, and print it on high quality photo paper. Laminate that. If it deteriorates outside in the weather, you can make another one. 
Another option is to print it onto printable, self-adhesive vinyl, and skip the laminating.


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey, that's MY name !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ain't I entited to like Royalties or somethin' ????









Naw, just kidding ... Just Goat for it







Maybe you could add a Rocky goat on the sign, now that'd be neat









I'd give it my approval









Rocky


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Some companies might even be flattered at the use of their name in a hobby project. Too bad they never get the concept of 'FREE ADVERTISING'.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

A company has to carefully guard their "image" (name, logo and advertising phrases) and challenge all that might usurp them. If they don't actively pursue protecting them, then if someone decides to use the same name or logo for their own purposes or in a derogotory manner the courts may not uphold their exclusive use.

A few years ago a Union Pacific lawyer decided that the use of the names and logos of the fallen flags that U.P. had absorbed (and thus are now owned by U.P. due to mergers and purchases) were not to be used by toy manufacturers. I seem to remember Wathers and Atlas were threatened with lawsuits for making train cars decorated with S.P., D&RGW, and a dozen other fallen flags on their products. It took a couple of months before U.P. upper management stepped in and sent letters to the various toy manufacturers saying that they could produce the toys with the logos/etc. but they needed to submit a sample of the products for "approval" before they could put them on the market. (Neat way to decorate the board room, anyway!) I think there is a token fee of $1.00 for the "license".

U.P. had some bad P.R. because of it, but it all settled and the toy manufacturers are complying. (I don't know what happened to the lawyer that started it all, there was lots of speculation on the web as to his future, or lack thereof, with the company.)

One of the reasons that both U.P. and N.S. painted some engines in the "Heritage" paint schemes was to keep the names and logos "current" so as to protect them from another's use. (You cannot start a Railroad and name it Southern Pacific!)

"Free advertising" is one thing, but what can it do to the corporate image by another's use of it is what the company worries about. The courts won't let them only go after the "unwanted" free advertising; so, "licensing" it is a way to allow nice use and prohibit bad use.


There is a "fair use" concept and there are volumes of court cases where that has been argued. I don't know if building a model of a real restaurant for use on personal property and non-commercial use falls into that category or not.

Most small companies would probably be honored that their company is being modeled. But it might be best to tell them what you are doing and ask permission. You might get the permission and a coupon for a free meal, too. They might ask for a photo of the finished product to proudly display on the wall! Just make sure it is presented as a good place to eat and not as "Ptomaine Central"!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

SV 

The initial UP implementation was quite onerous, especially to the small business. I only know because I worked closely with one of those companies. Up insisted on either [a] a percentage royalty on EVERY model produced that used any of their logos, or a flat percentage of overall sales. In addition, UP accountant would have full access to the company financial records [ALL of them, not just records related to the products in question. That is the real reason that many companies balked at signing the agreement. As you stated, every product had to be "reviewed and approved by UP. That is one reason Aster ended up with the GN S-2 instead of an FEF-3 and delayed the Challenger project. UP finally relented and went to a reasonable single fee approach. NS and CSX implemented the small single fee model from the beginning and simply required that the user accept that they had no claim on the names or logos and were using them under license. UP biggest overreach was to threaten to sue a Canadian company that produced railroad calendars, claiming that selling photos of their equipment was the same as making and selling a model. 

My friend received a "cease and desist" letter from UP over a hat with a UP emblem and "Bailey Yard" on it. He contacted UP and pointed out that THEY had commissioned him to produce the hats for people that worked there. In discussing what UP used as a source for "UP approved" emblems, it turned out UP was referring other companies to HIS web site to see what logos could be embroidered on clothing. He offered to counter sue for infringement on his web site. 

That said, I declined to purchase a Boudreaux's Butt Paste flat car from the DH 2013 bring-and-buy stand because I could not determine if the builder had the proper licensing for its use. NOT!!! I did not buy it because it doesn't go well with my Energizer Bunny flat car. 

TOO MANY LAWYERS, too few engineers and doctors. Nuff said.


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

I miss-spell the name on purpose and for amusement....... McDonalds became Mac Donnels. Budweiser became Budd Pfizer.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The only example of a modeller getting into trouble for using a real company name on a model that I know of was in Linn Wescott's book covering John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid HO model railroad. John admired a real lumber company so much, that he built a model of their facility. Then he sent a photo of the model (completely scenicked) to the lumber company's office, but he forgot to mention thet HIS lumber company was an HO model. The company dispatched its lawyer to John's home, because they thought his model was real AND an unlawful competitor. Humorous mixup because John's modelling and photography skills were THAT good. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

That is a good story about John. I have the book and found him a very interesting person and wish i knew him. I have the model completed and just going to put it out. Let the chips fall where they will. 
Thanks for all the advise. 
Greg R.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

Read the post in THIS thread at ==> 09 Jan 2013 09:22 AM 

Is there an echo in here? BTW, John told that story on himself in one of his many articles in MR and MRC.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a certain irony in this. A few years ago we had a devastating recession, catastrophe in housing, monetary meltdown, total credit freeze, horrific plunge in markets, $$trillions in losses. Nobody went to jail. But we worry about this?


Just do it (© 2012 Nike, Inc. All Rights Reserved)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

jim, it is amazing that very few people, while anxious to add to a thread, neglect to read it from the beginning... 

Greg


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim and Greg; 

Did not mean to add a duplicate post. Was out of state for a funeral on that date and must have missed some of the content while I skimmed through the thread. I really don't have a lot of time for MLS, so sometimes I overlook some things. 

Methinks you two could allow some slack as well. After all, this is supposed to be a hobby. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

not wanting to start an argument, but clearly you did not read the thread from the beginning, right? 

The John Allen story is a great one, I'll agree, but so often threads just go all over the place because people don't read anything but the topic and the last post. 

This happens often when a newbie will see a topic and post to it, not noticing (or caring) that the last post was 2 years ago... then many people pile on and wonder why there's no response from the op 

Not really sure how being busy justifies not reading the thread first, honestly. 

Sorry you had to attend a funeral. 

Greg


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, since we are writing about reading things, I thought that "Was out of state for a funeral on that date and must have missed some of the content while I skimmed through the thread." would have covered the reason for the error. I'll stop now, but it appears that you also miss some things. 

Really, I think you need to lighten up on those of us who are less perfect than you. I've seen you jump on people with both feet a LOT during my years on these forums. 

I made a mistake when I skimmed.  That's it. We aren't giong to have a crown sheet rupture because of it. 

Okay, I won't post on the thread again. But do try to allow people some slack. 

David Meashey


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

Sorry I started this... it was meant to point you to my earlier comments which had more/other info... not chastise you for not carefully reading every post in the thread. I guess the "echo" part made it sound worse than intended. Not sure you are replying to me or Greg ... who is known to take on the "I am your Father, THAT'S WHY!!" role quite often. Just ignore it... he does it often enough that we know it's not personal; just get's under his skin. And he strives for precision not perfection. 

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


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