# Garden Railways Magazine Stands strong.



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya Know after all the years of this magaizine its still nice to see it show up at the door. 
Its nice to have a place you can direct folks to. 
This isn't a kiss up because I contribute. 
Its the fact that even with rock throwers and all the critics we still have a mag we can call ours. 
I to have been disoppointed at times untill I get my focus right and additude ajusted. 
Some only worry about getting their "moneys worth". 

Do you ever get "your" moneys worth on anything?? 
Not having the mag is hard to imagine. 

So I say thanks to all those who TRY and stick their necks out on the line to keep the magazine going.. 

Get on with making the Hobby grow.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. We are fortunate to have it--perceived faults and all.


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice call, Marty. 

As you can imagine, I'm a big fan.  

It's getting there...


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Marty, for setting the record right! I would miss it if it went away./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

I know differently (that this is not directed at me as a contributor to the "other topic") but just so's it's said and out in the open.....A post I made earlier in that "other topic" stated that we were not renewing. Let me reiterate that this decision was made purely on a financial basis. In all honesty it was either MLS or Garden Railways. Since I can actually participate in an easier manner and on a daily basis MLS won out. Uet and in no way do we dislike nor do we have any issue with the magazinec content and articles. Other than maybe too much advertising but that does serve it's purpose, kinda a necessary evil. 
As I said in the same post to K, I'll say it again. I always enjoy reading his articles but I will add that the same for the many other contributors efforts as well. In fact, Marty has a very good aritcle that I just skimmed through upon the arrival of our issue today. 
Someday, maybe in the not to distant future we can once again pick up the subscription but for now and until we can get some things straightened out, it'll have to be part of the hobby that we are unable to enjoy. At the least we still have trains to run and that will have to work for us for now. 

Oh yeah Mr Dimmer! I couldn't agree more with your email. Hehehe You had me ROTFLMAO


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cmjdisanto on 08/28/2008 6:38 PM

I know differently (that this is not directed at me as a contributor to the "other topic") but just so's it's said and out in the open.....A post I made earlier in that "other topic" stated that we were not renewing. Let me reiterate that this decision was made purely on a financial basis. In all honesty it was either MLS or Garden Railways. Since I can actually participate in an easier manner and on a daily basis MLS won out...


I can relate to that. I may be looking at a similar decision. Winter is going to be exceedingly expensive up here this year and we here in central and northern AK will (mostly) all be in _survival mode_ for several months running.  I think there is far more hard data available here at MLS than in the mag, but I like the mag just because it is oriented toward _us_.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Well after a nice hot bubble bath and had fun with my battle ships and subs, 
the simple fact is NOT to condem a whole magizine or web site because of one or two things. 
The toy train folks, HO modelers, collectors all have us GRRers in a little box. 
So we need to stick together. 
I to have shot my mouth off and said stuff when I should not. but keeping the relationships is important. 
Keeping the lines of comunication open etc. 
I' sure this thread will not go as long as the (-) ones but . GRRers will go on.


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## SandyR (Jan 6, 2008)

I have all of Garden Railways right back to the first issue. And I just renewed my subscription. And I re-read the old mags, too! Losing GR would be a tremendous loss to the hobby. 
SandyR


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Garden Railways magazine is the anchor of the hobby, as far as I'm concerned. Sure we probably get more info here at MLS, and much faster. But GR is still the focal point, and will be for many years to come. 
And congratulations to all of the MLS'rs that keep showing up in the magazine! (Marty Cozad, Bruce Chandler, Jerry Barnes, even Kevin Strong makes an occasional appearance)


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I read it cover to cover several times. I take it into the bar and grill where I usually eat lunch. Lots of people look over my shoulder and ask questions. 

How many of you have put out a news letter for a Club? How hard is it to fill one 8.5 x11 page. How about 2 pages. 

Look at whats in GR. How much did they have to go through to get whats in there every issue. 

I like it becasue I get ideas from other layouts. Then I sit back and think I hope my lookes something like that some day. 

Sometimes it's great sometimes it' not that great. I still get it. 

PS do you believe that bunnies in Playboy or not to scale?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Even with this lap top computer, it is still easier to read GR while having a morning 'meeting'... 

Marty - I liked your article this month. Got me thinking about doing some more lettering for my railroad. Isn't that what a publication is for? Getting us thinking? 

I get GR as a gift from my inlaws every year. I recently decided to get more involved with the gardening side of the hobby. Folks on here were a great help, but I was able to see a lot of techniques and got some great ideas from the back issues I have. 

All in all, for what it is, I think that GR is a good magazine. I appreciate the folks who take time to write articles for the rest of us. 

Mark


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I breezed through the "other topic".. Just couldn't bring myself to add to the discussion.. mainly because 

a) I'm in this hobby to relax, enjoy and make friends. 
b) I really enjoy and look forward to the magazine. 
c) I view GR as a great reference point from which I can springboard my own ideas. 
and 
d)... It's a freakin hobby magazine.. relax Chester and unclench (or try a good over the counter laxative)... 

I'm with you Marty.. Enjoy and let the hobby grow.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Marty--nicely put


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I very agree with Marty! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh.. Mark.. 

My daughter saw your avatar and was wondering if you have a monkey named George around the house???


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Posted By Dave F on 08/28/2008 9:21 PM
Oh.. Mark.. 
My daughter saw your avatar and was wondering if you have a monkey named George around the house??? 




Yes, Yes , funny , funny i thought it was just me Dave?????dont get mad Mark, your avatar looks like curious goerge!!!!!! no matter what your still a good EGG but your avatar is funny/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif what were you DRINKIN that night?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif And Marty you are correct, better to have that not to have!!!!!!! 
Nick.....


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## Henson (Jan 2, 2008)

I still look forward to receiving my GR. I can always find something of interest to use on my RR even if it's only in the back of a picture. 

Can't imagine having a garden railroad and not getting GR or coming to MLS.


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

I like the mag. They have their ups and downs like all mags. Sports Illustrated covers baseball every year, which i don't really care for, but I still get the subscription. Heck, even playboy has a few "articles" that i don't care for. Garden railway is a nice mag, and a lot of work goes into it. 
Terry


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to buy it at my LHS but I have since become a subscriber. GR is a bi-monthly "fix" for me and I can't conceive of a time when it wouldn't be there for me! Marty, you're dead on accurate. Promoting "our" hobby is a helluva lot better than sniping and bickering about one or two things (plus it's a lot more fun! )


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## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

Marty, 

I could not agree with you more!!!!! I look forward to the mail at the end of everyother month. Nothing better than a "package in the mail." Even my kids know how much I look forward to it--ususaly the comment goes something like this: "Sorry Papi, no train magazine (GR) in the mail today--maybe tomorow." I feel like a kid waiting for the postman. That alone is "worth the money." I find value to every article, whether or not it directly applies to my interests or not. I still have a subscription to Model Railroader, even though my main interest is large scale, but my inspiration comes from those articles as well. 

I don't know if any of you feel like I do, but I see Garden Railroading at the same place HO railroading was in the mid to late seventies--just enough product on the market to get a layout going, but if you wanted something specific to your prototye (or lack of one) you kitbashed or scratch built and got creative. I actually love that part of the hobby, there seems not much challange in HO anymore--got enough money and space you can buy anything!!! I love the creativity found in Large Scale, and I am so glad to have found this part of our hobby. Garden Railways was the portal to all of this for me--it was sitting next to MR at the hobby shop--and I was hooked!!!!!! 

The "great model railroaders" in the smaller scales seeemed to "come of age" in the seventies and eighties: Hayden and Farry, Malcom Furlow, Allen McClelland, David Barrow, Tony Koester, Eric Booman and on and on. They all were creative and broke new ground--just like Marty, K, Richard and many others here on MLS and in GR. I do not mean to skip over any other of the fine folks in small scale or large scale--these are just off the top of my head and for illustration. I cannot thank the folks here and at GR enough for re-lighting the fire of model railroading for me--in a larger scale and OUTDOORS. 

Thanks for letting me ramble. 

Matt


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

A day without magazines is a glum one and I look forward to the postman delivering my GR, MR, Finescale, Gazette, and Scale Rails, not to mention various car, auto racing and photography mags. I keep the current issues in a basket on our kitchen snack bar, to be "devoured" while I'm eating lunch or enjoying a between-meal treat. Unfortunately, and because I save each one, my magazine friends are taking over our den/office. But what a treasure trove of information and enjoyment they provide.


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

I couldn't disagree more! The last two cover articles, for example, were all about appearance with no reason given for the layout being built other than that. Last month we had the most absurd layout of all time, which the author praised for the "wow" of multiple running trains in a layout with no operational interest whatsover. That's the kind of wow I'd expect in _Classic Toy Trains_ rather than GR.


This month we get a pictorial of a desert layout with no operational interest at all, just a double tracked dogbone. Look closely and you'll see a desert RR with Pennsy signals! The author tells us where he bought the signals, but doesn't explain why he selected Pennsy signals instead of the kinds of signals actually found in deserts.


Frankly I am tired of layouts being held up as good examples when they have no apparent purpose other than running trains in circles. RRs with a purpose are the rationale for most model railroads. Running trains in circles is no more model railroading than annual Christmas Tree "layouts".



I read GR for the product reviews and the advertising. The rest of the content is largely useless.

Mark


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 08/29/2008 2:59 PM 
I couldn't disagree more! The last two cover articles, for example, were all about appearance with no reason given for the layout being built other than that. Last month we had the most absurd layout of all time, which the author praised for the "wow" of multiple running trains in a layout with no operational interest whatsover. That's the kind of wow I'd expect in _Classic Toy Trains_ rather than GR.


This month we get a pictorial of a desert layout with no operational interest at all, just a double tracked dogbone. Look closely and you'll see a desert RR with Pennsy signals! The author tells us where he bought the signals, but doesn't explain why he selected Pennsy signals instead of the kinds of signals actually found in deserts.


Frankly I am tired of layouts being held up as good examples when they have no apparent purpose other than running trains in circles. RRs with a purpose are the rationale for most model railroads. Running trains in circles is no more model railroading than annual Christmas Tree "layouts".


I read GR for the product reviews and the advertising. The rest of the content is largely useless.

Mark 



There are plenty of examples of trains in the real world that also just run around in circles all day. There are also plenty of tourist railroads that do nothing but go back-and-forth or round and round all day and earn a living doing it. Many have more ridership than than rural areas on "real" routes. These are also the railroads that will generate future interest in railroading as a hobby for the youth. 

Ever been to Dizzyland of Nott's Feiry Barn and seen the kids faces when they get off the train? Ever go through the shops at Nott's Feiry Barn and see actual narrow gauge engines and cars in restoration? 

Compare that with the annoiance at the school from the NW-2 that switches hazardous chemical tankers for mainline pickup and tell me what is going to sustain the hobby.


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

There are plenty of examples of trains in the real world that also just run around in circles all day. There are also plenty of tourist railroads that do nothing but go back-and-forth or round and round all day and earn a living doing it. Many have more ridership than than rural areas on "real" routes. These are also the railroads that will generate future interest in railroading as a hobby for the youth. 


If the hobby is reduced to running trains in circles, it will be far different hobby from model railroading. 


Mark


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

So much for positive notes on this one, also the last word Strong was not a pun. 
I also want to point out that I understand the "need" for operation and a purpose for the RR. 
But in REAL LIFE most visitors here just want to see the trains run around. Many folks use the word that I hate most, cute.. But Cute sales. look at the bug like things Arsito sales. I'd use them for paintball practice. 
Even whimsical is not found on my RR ,BUT when I took the photo of the snow monster in the plow car I got the greatest responce ever EVER from e-mails on that photo. 
What can we say, ????


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with you Marty. I to look forward to each issue. Even the featured layouts that I wouldn't put on my A list on a layout tour, quite often have some unique feature I would like to incorporate in my layout. Maybe if the rivet counters had supported Uncle Russ, we would still have 2 competing magazines covering the hobby.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

My kids like watching our trains run in circles...they also enjoy pressing the button on the RCS TX24 to sound the bell and whistle when it's under their control...that is why I built the RR...for my kids to enjoy...as they get older (and I can retain interest) they may want to do some switching, till then it's the roundy-round...Battery Powered of course!... 

Oh and GR Mag....it's a family favorite for the kids as well ole Dad...trains, trains, and more trains...so yeah, we like it too! 

cale


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Fabuloulistic article, Marty..... Great images and descriptions.....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok I got mine today. Thumbed through it. Looks like it's got some interesting stuff in it. I will read it cover to cover.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

I still have not gotten mine, i went yesterday to hobby shop to pickup and was told they no longer carry it cause there magazine vendor say they dont sell enough to ship them anymore, so im trying to find another local place that has them. im getting really agurvated that my local hobby shop has no control over what magazines he sells... what a bunch of BS/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif 
Nick...


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I get mine at Barnes & Noble...


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Well..... I had to go back and read the org. post from Marty. We enjoy the mag. Even if it not detailed on some articles, it is still enjoy to read. Update on new stuff that is out that I wouldn't not normally see. 
I did have a problem with the last few maz. on Subscriptions mailed to me./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif" 
Some where missing pages or bent so bad it was hard to get it flat again.. So I called Garden Railway Magazine and told them of my problem living in the boonies. That was last Monday and got new maz. replaced yesterday staring back at fist of the year in a warped env.( Feb. April and June.) and one that is Octobers, 2008 in a warper. 
So couldn't believe the response and curtsy of them on the phone... Nice people to deal with.. 
So ya...... We think it not like Model Railroader maz. but it the best around for large scale." 
If you don't like what you see then send them in a Article. I was told they have a lot of back logs but always can use more. Oh and photo least 5 meg pixels or better. 
So send some stuff in and lets see what you have.. It can make a better maz. for all of us.


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I enjoy GR. I am always showing my wife something from the magazine (trying to spark an interest since she just tolerates the trains). It’s a lot easier then trying to get her to look at the computer screen. 

About 2 years ago there was an article on a small backyard RR. I recognized the name as a client I was a consultant for about 8 years ago with another firm. I called him and congratulated him and told him I too enjoyed garden railroading. He thanked me and then asked if I was interested in being a consultant with his firm. He has been my client ever since. That one pictorial has more than paid for a lifetime subscription to GR. 

Tommy 
Rio Gracie


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

I look forward to buying GR every month. Admittedly I get it later this side of the pond but as they say something good is worth waiting for.  

I have had copies now for just over two years: it has helped me get to know the American railroad model scene as well as info about the 1:1 railroad practices. Like many posts here I just like to get on and enjoy our great hobby. I have been amidst hassle most of my life - now its time to just relax and enjoy. 

I would hate to see it disappear. 

I also get Classic Trains, another great magazine.


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## flatracker (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm afraid I'm like JJ about reading it from cover to cover, and then going back and looking at articles that really caught my attention. I ALWAYS learn something from every issue, and find things I want to do in the future. 

I'm also glad I'm not the one who has to find enough things to try and satisfy most readers, and fill all those pages. As for too much advertisement...that's where I see new things coming down the pike, or maybe something I would like to have, or need to finish a project. 

Yep, would surely miss it, if it was to go the way some others have gone./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 

I think Marty is right on!!!


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## Chris France (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately I'm still looking forward to mine. Still haven't gotten it yet....oh well, hopefully soon.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine arrived Thursday afternoon and I'm still looking through it. I find that I pick-up back issues and re-read and always notice something I missed the first go-round.


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## Fred (Jan 2, 2008)

I look forward to the mailman bringing me the latest GR, there is always something of interest for me- some issues more-some issues less. I save all my issues and when going on a family vacation take a box with me to reread as I might find an article of interest to me now that wasn't of interst to me then. i enjoy seeing what other people have done and what new products are coming out. Although I am an avid "operations man" I realize others are content just to sit back, relax, and watch what they have built run around in some sort of loop - to each his own. I think Mark H has done a fine job in keeping GR up & running all these years.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

I breezed through the "other topic".. Just couldn't bring myself to add to the discussion.. mainly because 

a) I'm in this hobby to relax, enjoy and make friends. 
b) I really enjoy and look forward to the magazine. 
c) I view GR as a great reference point from which I can springboard my own ideas. 
and 
d)... It's a freakin hobby magazine.. 
---------------------------------------------------- 

Couldn't have said it any better myself, so I'll just go with the quote. I, too, was tempted to respond to the other thread, but finally figured it was not worth the time and effort.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

I've just been waitin' to see who's bladder emptied first...


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

So let's see, in the latest Garden Railways we have an excellent article by our own Marty Cozad, "Corporate Identity for Garden Railroads," a subject I have never had to guts to approach on MLS for fear of offending someone. Next, we Bruce Chandler's piece on "Making some working gladhands," which is about as anal as you can get about modeling (and I mean that in a positive way). Then we have Jack Verducci's latest missive--"Structures:creating a plan," which again is about as nuts-and boltsy as most guys whose posts I read want to get. And, need I add, that Verducci is among a handful a really great large-scale modelers who has built an incredible garden railway of his own, not to mention dozens of layouts for wealthy customers throughout the country. So tell me Mark, how can you look at this package and say, "The rest of the content is largely useless?" 

Here's the deal, Mark, Garden Railways is a magazine for large-scale railroaders of every stripe, not just rivet counters like me, or whimsical modelers who enjoy seeing their own version of Thomas the Tank Engine go round & round beneath a waterfall (with gnomes) or a Christmas tree. They're in the hobby for fun, not to criticize everyone who doesn't measure up to expectations. 

BTW, I think you owe Cozad an apology.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Posted By joe rusz on 08/30/2008 10:39 PM
So let's see, in the latest Garden Railways we have an excellent article by our own Marty Cozad, "Corporate Identity for Garden Railroads," a subject I have never had to guts to approach on MLS for fear of offending someone. Next, we Bruce Chandler's piece on "Making some working gladhands," which is about as anal as you can get about modeling (and I mean that in a positive way). Then we have Jack Verducci's latest missive--"Structures:creating a plan," which again is about as nuts-and boltsy as most guys whose posts I read want to get. And, need I add, that Verducci is among a handful a really great large-scale modelers who has built an incredible garden railway of his own, not to mention dozens of layouts for wealthy customers throughout the country. So tell me Mark, how can you look at this package and say, "The rest of the content is largely useless?" 
Here's the deal, Mark, Garden Railways is a magazine for large-scale railroaders of every stripe, not just rivet counters like me, or whimsical modelers who enjoy seeing their own version of Thomas the Tank Engine go round & round beneath a waterfall (with gnomes) or a Christmas tree. They're in the hobby for fun, not to criticize everyone who doesn't measure up to expectations. 
BTW, I think you owe Cozad an apology.





UUUUMMMM what?????????/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif 
Nick...


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, 
I believe that Joe was suggesting that Mark should apologize to Marty...


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Posted By Duncan on 08/30/2008 11:05 PM
Nick, 
I believe that Joe was suggesting that Mark should apologize to Marty...


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

I do owe Marty anything. I did not criticize his article. Get real!



Mark


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm lost, I don't see a problem. Mark and many others I see post on here and I feel I know them well. I don't worry about little things. 

The bigger things to worry about is my 18 year old got MIP last night and now I have to deal with that. All four boys knows that I WON'T bail them out of jail.


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

I stopped my subscription to Garden Railways because the publisher thinks he can send me something I don't want and expects me to mail it back. So I buy it at the LHS, no address involved, and besides that gives me a "reason" to drop in. 

Mark Lewis seems to think that the word 'Model' in the magazines title. No, it's about railways in the garden; whimsical or scale is not mentioned. 

I graduated from Lionel back in 1948, tried O scale - room was only 8 feet by 40, long enough but not wide enough - so moved to HO. The rivet counters were well in control back then, but with constant moving, a loop or whatever had to suffice. 

Enter G gauge and things got better; as the old saying goes, ANYTHING GOES. And going around in circles has one advantage, you can't get lost. 

The other post has plenty of negativity; let's leave it there. 

Art


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Well Guys, 

I have to side with Mark up to a point! I am a long time subscriber and still subscribe, but I find little of interest anymore. Most of the plant articles don't work for my area. A lot of the articles are boring and seem to be very repetitive. I have on several occasions found myself having to look at the cover to be sure I picked up the latest issue. I usually look at the advertizing first As for enticing newcomers. I don't think so!! Especially the younger set. One young fellow (young fellow to me is a 18 to 40 something) )looked at my magazine and was shocked by the price of a locomotive which cost $695, He asked me about track prices, and......... well you know where that went!! He told me how many radio control automobiles he coud buy for the price of that locomotive and reminded me that he wouldn't need any track. He likes my layout, but even there he chokes on the cost of what I have. especially the cost of radio control and sound systems. I suggested the idea that he go with HO being cheaper and all, but I couldn't sell it. To me the magazine is a club news letter for senior citizens with a lot of money. I know I am not alone in these feelings, and I suspect many will not be critical for fear of getting flamed. 

Overall I feel the magazine is way to eletist, and offers little or nothing for newcommers, but expensive layouts and products that they have little or no hope of ever getting. When that occurs we oldtimers in the club can only hope that the boomers behind us with money keep the hobby going. What are the stats on circulation? Up down? Static? Even Kalmbach realizes that going monthly would not be a good business decision. 

I will probably keep subscribing to support the hobby, but I much prefer a venue where I can go online to MLS or the other great web sites and do a search for exactly what I need and get in many cases instant responses and ideas about what I am interested in! Even the advertizers have there own web sites, some with way more content than just a price list at that 

I have no doubt that GR works hard to put out a good issue, but with more modern communications methods they and many others may be going the way of the dinosauers. 

If money were tight (and it is not for me) and I had to choose between MLS or GR then GR would have to go!! 

Hate to put a stick in all the friendly comments, but I hope it will be taken in the spirit it is given. I do want out hobby to succeed!!!!!!!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

It is tough for a well established magazine to offer articles for newcomers because they have already published all the information for newcomers. If they repeat anything the longtime subscribers complain that they don't want to pay for repeated information. Yet, the newcomer is then stuck buying back issues to get the beginner information but doesn't know for sure if it will contain information that is applicable for today, and the advertisements are all old and of little value because the products advertised are either no longer being produced or the prices are way off due to inflation, thus reducing the value for the price paid for the issue. 

The magazine is caught between a rock and a hard place... publish repeated beginner articles and alienate the established subscriber base or publish only NEW information that is sparse at best and have to fill the magazine with whatever the author base feels like submitting for publication. And that leaves just photo essays of larger and larger layouts... they have already published photo essays of small layouts because they were part of the earlier issues when people were just starting to build layouts and they were all small. 

If GR were to pass by the wayside, a new magazine would start up to take its place (Hope Hope! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif ) and because it was NEW, it could get away with publishing the beginner stuff because there would be no subscriber base to alienate saying they don't want repeat issues. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 09/01/2008 6:50 PM
It is tough for a well established magazine to offer articles for newcomers because they have already published all the information for newcomers. If they repeat anything the longtime subscribers complain that they don't want to pay for repeated information. Yet, the newcomer is then stuck buying back issues to get the beginner information but doesn't know for sure if it will contain information that is applicable for today, and the advertisements are all old and of little value because the products advertised are either no longer being produced or the prices are way off due to inflation, thus reducing the value for the price paid for the issue. 
The magazine is caught between a rock and a hard place... publish repeated beginner articles and alienate the established subscriber base or publish only NEW information that is sparse at best and have to fill the magazine with whatever the author base feels like submitting for publication. And that leaves just photo essays of larger and larger layouts... they have already published photo essays of small layouts because they were part of the earlier issues when people were just starting to build layouts and they were all small. 
If GR were to pass by the wayside, a new magazine would start up to take its place (Hope Hope! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif" border=0> ) and because it was NEW, it could get away with publishing the beginner stuff because there would be no subscriber base to alienate saying they don't want repeat issues. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border=0>


Each issue could have a beginner article. Those of us who have been doing this for a while can certainly tolerate one beginner article each month. Beginners could then be referred to the web site to further their knowledge.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

This was discussed (and cussed) some time ago and the suggestion to include one beginner article was met with vociferous objections. ("I ain't payin' for repeats! I'll drop my subscription if they start doin' that!") Wonder what will happen today.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't see online replacing print magazines anytime in the near future. First, the number aren't there. GR's own web site doesn't get the traffic this one does, and this one--if all the registered users were actively reading the board--would still only be 20% or so of GR's circulation. I'd guess in terms of active users, that number's probably closer to 5% or so. It will be quite some time before those numbers begin to come close to matching. Second, the content would have to change considerably. People get bored quickly if all they do in front of the computer is read. They want videos and interactivity to keep them coming back. The web is such a flexible medium, so content really needs to be catered to take full advantage of that medium. Lastly--and probably most importantly--the revenue stream hasn't been established yet. Even the big media companies are still wrestling with this one. It's got to be economically viable to succeed. If you're paying for contributed content, producing more interactive content in house,(which is inherently more expensive than just words and pictures) and paying for the bandwidth needed to get it to the reader, you need a strong advertising policy in place. The old pay-for-space model doesn't work. Pop-ups get blocked, and people get highly annoyed when they have to click through an advertisement to get to the content they're after. For some reason, it's a lot harder on the psyche to click a "close" button than simply flip past the printed ads. 

You can expect to see GR (and every other print magazine) work over the coming years to significantly increase their web product. At this point, the aim is still largely supplemental, with the model being the magazine driving people to the web site more than vice versa. 

As for content, I have my three pages every issue, and that's about as much influence as I get. I would like to think that a column called "Garden Railways Basics" would be recognized as being concepts for beginners, so in that light, I'd like to think there's something new for beginners in every issue. 

Later, 

K


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 09/01/2008 2:00 PM
I'm lost, I don't see a problem. Mark and many others I see post on here and I feel I know them well. I don't worry about little things. 

The bigger things to worry about is my 18 year old got MIP last night and now I have to deal with that. All four boys knows that I WON'T bail them out of jail.



Sorry to hear Marty, let him soak in there. What my mom and dad would have done. 
Coming from a ex-Texas Peace Officer remind him at 18 it will be on his record for life. 
Toad


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I read each issue of GR cover to cover. But there will come a time, when I get my layout completed and have all the rolling stock and DCC and sound boards that I need and can program everything myself, that I won't read it cover to cover. I have had several hobbies over the years and when I became proficient at each one I stopped reading the magazines because they were always a few months behind what I was doing. I didn't stop my subscriptions but got to the point of just browsing for new stuff that I didn't know about. GR is a great magazine that supports our hobby well and we should be thankful we have this fine magazine.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, 

Hope you don't take any of this personally, just because you write for GR, but the main reason the GR web site is rarly viisited is because it is boring, and seems to be nothing more than a plug to subscribe to the mag. There is very little depth of content. 

To be successful like MLS the GR web site would have to cover a wide variety of topics like MKS and other major Large Scale Web sites do. GR may be trying, but just hasn't got there. Maybe they will at some point. If they get really good I will go there. GR like other hobby related print media must tie theiir print media to their web site in a way that appeals to a wider audience. 

Most people have a limited time to spend online, and when the do they will go to a site that has the content they want when they want. Loyalty to MLS is very strong, so MLS members with limited tim will more than likely stick with what they are familiar with, rather than looking for info on the GR site! 

Your column on Garden Railway basics should be on line so that if I google the topic your content would show up. 


I have over spent my alloted time online and must go now. 

Keep up the good work!!


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2008)

Bill, 
What I am most discused is they will lock or even kill a thread if they see if. Which I am a very strong mind type person but fourms some times for me I don't get my point across right (I feel it is in the thought proscess or how I was raised) but back to GR they have killed me and if you have looked at the rules said nothing about it for them to take action. 
Like to see the Magazine do well but with so many cut backs I just think what next? 
Toad


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 09/02/2008 1:03 AM
As for content, I have my three pages every issue, and that's about as much influence as I get. I would like to think that a column called "Garden Railways Basics" would be recognized as being concepts for beginners, so in that light, I'd like to think there's something new for beginners in every issue. 
Later, 
K


OK, what I want to know is why is the magazine written it "first person" as opposed to "third person." I see magazines written both way, but third person has always been considered as proper and more "professional" and that is how WE write all of our technical documents.  

Todd


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Bill, no offense at all. I, too, would like to see a bit more content on-line. I know there are efforts underway to do that, but it takes people to create the content, which takes time and money (and people). I'd love to see an easier way to navigate to all the on-line resources that are available. Every time I go to the home page, there's a different article fronting it (including some of my columns), but I have yet to find an index or clickable link to just see what's available. Perhaps in time... 

Todd, I can't speak for others, but I write mine first-person because I'm writing about my personal experiences. There's also an inherent difference between a technical document and a magazine article. First person is a lot more conversational. 

Later, 

K


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Just my own POV but the reason the GR forum is so "boring", is that there are only a few people actually contributing to it anymore, the reasons for that may vary, but postings there have dropped off significantly compared to years past, alot of familiar names no longer visit the site anymore or are rarely there, so when people ask questions theres a smaller pool of those who can reply so the overall postings and subject matters wane. 

I've noticed a similar drop in postings here and at LSC, I attributed it to the sour economy, fewer newbies entering the hobby, so fewer questions, fewer posts, even some long time members have dropped off as outside pressures force them to focus their free time elsewhere. And I think the debacle over the fall of LGB also soured alot of people on both sides of the issue from posting. 

So at GR only a small core of active members remain, and like here, most are pretty well established in the hobby and as such have relatively few questions so the subjects tend to fall into other catagories not quite "on-topic" or tend to focus on personalities and there differences, LSC has been doing this alot lately, and it while it can be quite fun to read some of the banter, it can tend to stray from being objective ... alittle.  .


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 09/02/2008 12:00 PM
Just my own POV but the reason the GR forum is so "boring", is that there are only a few people actually contributing to it anymore, the reasons for that may vary, but postings there have dropped off significantly compared to years past, alot of familiar names no longer visit the site anymore or are rarely there, so when people ask questions theres a smaller pool of those who can reply so the overall postings and subject matters wane. 
I've noticed a similar drop in postings here and at LSC, I attributed it to the sour economy, fewer newbies entering the hobby, so fewer questions, fewer posts, even some long time members have dropped off as outside pressures force them to focus their free time elsewhere. And I think the debacle over the fall of LGB also soured alot of people on both sides of the issue from posting. 
So at GR only a small core of active members remain, and like here, most are pretty well established in the hobby and as such have relatively few questions so the subjects tend to fall into other catagories not quite "on-topic" or tend to focus on personalities and there differences, LSC has been doing this alot lately, and it while it can be quite fun to read some of the banter, it can tend to stray from being objective ... alittle. " border=0> . 






As for me I'll keep subscribing for now. I do see some value in it vs. the one year I paid for the LGB club membership. I think I started my online presence about the time the old site went donw adn right as this was was formed. I poked about on the old Bachman site and found this one again sometime later. As new ones come I keep an aye from tiem to time but the content seems to be repeated (with a twist) by the same folks from oen site to antoher. I find this one the friendliest so I stay here more often than not. I do check the Aristo site still from time to time and a few toehrs but find the same folks that post here there psoting the same stuff with almost the same oflks responding. It gets a little tedious trying to keep up on all the forums so I don't. As for the GR Mag I don't have to "keep up" so much as pick it up and read when I please. I too echo someone elses comments about Uncle Russ's mag. I miss the old format and the fact that it was printed one month off GR. When the fomat changed I stopped buying it. Less and less of what I was interested in. Since I do not yet have a layout I cannot truly become the rivet counter I'm going to be someday. So for now I'm happily a go roundy bout in circles type of guy when I can get some time to run trains. In the meantime I spend time here and read GR. I'm blissfully ignorant and relatively happy. 

Chas


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 09/02/2008 1:03 AM


I would like to think that a column called "Garden Railways Basics" would be recognized as being concepts for beginners, so in that light, I'd like to think there's something new for beginners in every issue. 
Later, 
K




I think right there you've laid bare an issue that nearly caused me to drop the magazine. Beginners need 'concepts', true. But they quickly progress to needing much more than that. Once a newbie learns about gauge, for instance, what else can one say? An issue not addressed in the year I've been subscribing deals with 'scales'. To my memory, there never has been a picture or drawing comparing ALL the various scales available in G. I think that issue is a very serious one. And I'm speaking of the mainline gauges, not the various narrow gauges that could be introduced by the occasional article on one of them. 

If GR is indeed the foremost magazine in garden gauge, then nothing will change until change is forced. 

Les W.


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, the magazine is welcomed! 
The difficultly, if there is one, is new subscribers from the ranks of those who have purchased starter sets for Christmas. 
From the starter set group is where I started. I then saw an outdoor layout, heard the matra and the "It's OK to leave these toys outside" addage, and the how-to information. 
I doubt this beginner population is growing. I don't thing the manufacturers are specifically targeting potential starter set owners or those who have them. 

I see no complementary articles tucked into a starter set with the box indicating important information inside on how to enjoy large scale trains. 
The only starter sets in two of the train stores I have recently been in are the older LGB Stainz sets with a price markdown or the words "collectible." 

So the magazine will continue to be published until those who continue to subscribe stop doing so. 

Wendell


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Garden Railways has been doing a excellent job.. Look @ what is happing in large scale, to name a few: the LGB issue, the Bachmann socket, the price of every thing going up.. Companys have been sold, lots of new ones & some have gone broke.. 

If you look, they have been having to dodge & duck all kinds of flack, most created by stupid people.. 

BulletBob


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, the reason much of Garden Railways is written in the first person (BTW, no need to use quote marks here) is because that most of the stories are essentially how-to pieces, with the modeler/author (Kevin, Marty, Verducci, etc) recounting their experiences. It's subjective, not objective, as it is not really reporting. If you are refering to the use of the editorial "we," or "one," as opposed to "I," that went out with the Linotype. 

As far as the old magazine versus print argument goes, I just spent several minutes printing several images posted by Richard Schmitt, because I wanted to save them in my model building file. The reporduction was crappy, compared to what you get in a magazine using quality paper (not GR or the one I write for) and after a while, all those paper copies tend to clutter up the old filing cabinet.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

K, about making money from a website: I had a chat with one of our on-line guys and he told me that a certain automotive magazine (not the one I write for) stood to make $10 million off its site this year. The money is in the number of hits, which automobile manufacturers seem to equate with readership.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think right there you've laid bare an issue that nearly caused me to drop the magazine. Beginners need 'concepts', true. But they quickly progress to needing much more than that. Once a newbie learns about gauge, for instance, what else can one say? 

About the very basics, not much, which is why my columns over the recent few years have been geared more towards what I call the "basics of the next steps," things like repainting locomotives, refurbishing old buildings, photography, those kinds of things. At various points, I do go back and revisit the "basic" basics, but the trick is to do so in a way that doesn't get repetitious. The information needs to be repackaged in a new context. 

An issue not addressed in the year I've been subscribing deals with 'scales'. To my memory, there never has been a picture or drawing comparing ALL the various scales available in G. I think that issue is a very serious one. And I'm speaking of the mainline gauges, not the various narrow gauges that could be introduced by the occasional article on one of them. 

Scale is actually one of the more difficult concepts to explain, for a number of reasons. First, there's the confusion of everything running on the same track which is a huge hurdle for one to get their hands around. Second, there's the fact that prototype trains of one gauge came in different sizes, so while a model may be labeled for one scale, it may serve quite well in another. I'd love for it to be black and white, but it's not. In truth, I could probably write 6 different columns on scale and gauge to fill an entire year's worth of magazines, and still have an audience of vastly confused people come December. It's a lot like geometry. Once it clicks, it all makes perfect sense. But until that point, it's a muddy, incomprehensible mess. Last, you've got to _want_ to understand it. Many people in large scale simply don't have any interest whatsoever in scale. They just want something that looks cool running through the garden (which only perpetuates the first point). But your point is well taken, and given the flack in a similar thread, perhaps it's time to revisit. 

Later, 

K


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 09/03/2008 1:28 AM
About the very basics, not much, which is why my columns over the recent few years have been geared more towards what I call the "basics of the next steps," things like repainting locomotives, refurbishing old buildings, photography, those kinds of things. At various points, I do go back and revisit the "basic" basics, but the trick is to do so in a way that doesn't get repetitious. The information needs to be repackaged in a new context. 

Scale is actually one of the more difficult concepts to explain, for a number of reasons. First, there's the confusion of everything running on the same track which is a huge hurdle for one to get their hands around. Second, there's the fact that prototype trains of one gauge came in different sizes, so while a model may be labeled for one scale, it may serve quite well in another. I'd love for it to be black and white, but it's not. In truth, I could probably write 6 different columns on scale and gauge to fill an entire year's worth of magazines, and still have an audience of vastly confused people come December. They just want something that looks cool running through the garden (which only perpetuates the first point). But your point is well taken, and given the flack in a similar thread, perhaps it's time to revisit. 
Later, 
K




I want to make one last point before going away--two, actually. The first and most important is that I have no personal animus toward anyone involved with producing GR, at any level. I think, overall, it's a good-enough magazine. I once did tech writing for a magazine and an aircraft company (McDonnell-Douglas) and the like. I have some insight into the work necessary, though I admit up front I'm dated. (Pre-computer era). The old saw, "You can't please everyone all the time" is true. GR isn't meeting my needs (or more importantly, my wants). 

Which leads to the second, most important point. A discussion arose about paid websites vs brick 'n mortar. I'm not going to illustrate the argument, it's old and should be well-understood. A point that was overlooked on both sides is this: I, for instance, pay $ to have the convenience of storing pixes and creating a blog (if I understand correctly--and I may not) on this site. That means, if my blog is successful in attracting input from others, a group of people with dissimilar interests can inhabit the same site without conflict. Or conversely if I find someone else's blog wherein the subjects are of interest I can post, which would act as a blog-limiter. It works out, then, that we have a number of subjects, each with a relatively minor following who send what are essentially 'letters to the editor (and others)'. Every day or every time the notion strikes. And most importantly, there's this factor: I read GR once and lay it in the pile. Rarely do I page back through old ones. They take up physical space. With a blog, everything tends to be organized, or at least is findable. As many times a day as I wish I can access the site, find the blog(s) I'm following and retrieve or add information. It's the 'Forum' format given over to amateurs, so to speak--though topical organization is still paramount. 

All the above means that the host site gets lots of 'hits'/day, and makes money. Didn't You-Tube already invent this? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif 

That's the flexibility that sites have over hardcopy. 

Regards, 
Les


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Actually GR has done a very good job describing scale and gauge. Just look at page 13 of "Beginning Garden Railroading, A Supplement to Garden Railways Magazine."


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Todd, 

If it's this month's, I'll go take a look. Here's why I missed it: 

1) I'm not 'beginning' a 'garden' RR. My RR (SL, actually) will be an indoor layout, rather small. I've already said in another post that 'Gardening' as a subject is of little interest to me. Thus, the inclusion of scale under a header like that is open to question. A subline something like 'Scales, track, power supplies--everything you'll need to get going!' might not have hurt. 

2) Just off the top of my head, the only indoor layout that GR ever featured was in a room approximately large enough to hold my house--and the one next door. Or perhaps most of a football field. 

As it worked out, first health, then changing economic situations forced me to postphone starting my layout. This has turned out to be a very good thing, because instead of building and running, I've been forced to read and 'plan'-- plan being understood in the widest sense of the word. I had time to sketch out various features and think them through to a degree that showed I'd have to give up large engines and long trains. Since I'm more interested in building and switching/freight transfer, that'll work out just fine. Because my means are limited, my costs will be far less to achieve my purposes. 

I'm glad you called that to my attention since I rarely re-read old GR issues. 

Les W.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Ol Kevin has to Work for a living, write articals to support his hobby, be a dad, husband and then come here to exsplain everything.... 
I don't think he ever relaxes. 
I think,,"think" that I can say I accept all aspects of the hobby but for folks saying untruths about something. Untruths meaning pushing an issue to one side so far that there is not two sides to every issue. 
Does that make cents? 
I try to encouage those who have no idea what they are doing. 
I put up with those who know ,,everything. 
I "try" to be open minded about changes. 
I don't need to be around those who don't want me around. 
But I will not quit because of one or two folks. 
I lost the rest of my thoughts.?????


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

The argument about printed magazines vs. websites recently got very heated on the NMRA forum; They may have to raise the price of a subscription to _Scale Rails_ to cover increased costs that are not being met by advertising revenue. A lot of members objected and said the magazine should be distributed on the web instead of being printed. The argument was a bit biased because only the members who use the internet were able to participate. In any event, the argument died because too many members are not computer savvy and the cost of the NMRA website would have gone up prohibitively to provide all the features that the magazine does. 



With many of their other magazines, Kalmbach's website does offer useful features available to subscribers only. Much of this content is based on historical items that Kalmbach has collected over many decades. It's true that GR has attempted to follow that model, but in their case it looks like few of the authors provide the internet-ready supplemental content needed and they really don't have the history that other train-oriented magazines have. Why they don't use the historical information about RRs that _Model Railroader_ uses, I don't know.


Garden Railroading is a hobby that includes several other hobbies not needed for traditional model railroading or even toy trains: gardening and water use. Both of those ancillary hobbies are served by magazines of their own. Thus many readers of GR find the discussion of plants either too superficial or too restricted in terms of climate subgroups to be of value. Personally, I find their articles on ponds very superficial and at times a bit dangerous (consider running electrified rail in areas where pond overflows can occur).


My complaint about GR is based on my perception that their articles (especially the cover stories) stress appearance at the cost of modeling detail and RR operations. Some of those stories actually scream at me: this last issue's cover story with the author's use of Pennsy signals in a desert RR is a case in point (that the author was most experienced in writing for Kalmbach's toy trains magazine may explain that blunder, but then since I never read that magazine I could be wrong about its content).


Personally I would love to see a magazine that treated mainline RRing in the garden as well as the narrow gauge publications have. GR is not that magazine and probably never will be.


Mark


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Les on 09/03/2008 3:15 PM 
Todd, 
If it's this month's, I'll go take a look. Here's why I missed it: 
2) Just off the top of my head, the only indoor layout that GR ever featured was in a room approximately large enough to hold my house--and the one next door. Or perhaps most of a football field. 
I'm glad you called that to my attention since I rarely re-read old GR issues. 
Les W.

I don't know what magazine you've been reading because my GR magazine usually has a couple indoor layouts featured each year. "G", the last one I recall was in August 2008. "


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Yeah, the one I didn't get./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By MarkLewis on 09/04/2008 1:15 PM
The argument about printed magazines vs. websites recently got very heated on the NMRA forum; They may have to raise the price of a subscription to _Scale Rails_ to cover increased costs that are not being met by advertising revenue. A lot of members objected and said the magazine should be distributed on the web instead of being printed. The argument was a bit biased because only the members who use the internet were able to participate. In any event, the argument died because too many members are not computer savvy.... 



///Hmm. That's darn thoughtful of them. I remember an ENTIRE year's subscription to MR devoted to making a computer-operated RR. A/D & every-wunnerful-thing. How to do PC boards. (I've never--and will never--subscribe to that mag again). This was back in the mid to late 80s, someplace. There were bunches of computer-illiterates back then. I had a hot Apple IIe. Whoa. Got to write it off my taxes as job related. Thus, I believe you can understand why the objection of 'computer illiteracy' doesn't move me very much. But I don't belong to NMRA. I just bought a bunch of old Bulletins out of the 70s, and they make good reading. I'm very computer ignorant, that's why I don't have my pix up. My daughter's been promising to come over and do it. 

... this last issue's cover story with the author's use of Pennsy signals in a desert RR is a case in point 

/// I didn't notice that. I guess, if a guy wants to run a Pennsy in the desert, I don't care that much. Kinda humorous, when it's pointed out, however./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif I didn't read the article, either, as it's miles outside of my sphere of interest. 
Mark




Les


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