# AC-11/12 Cab Forward detail



## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I've started to add the little details that for me, make a loco, so I'm in need of a couple of pix of an AC-11/12. 
Does anyone have a pix of the top of the tender? 
Mainly around the oiling hatches as I'm setting up the wooden platform that was around the hatches. 
I have an ulterior motive for this, it is to stop the hatch cover falling into the tender all the time.  Gordon Watson warned me about it, but the first time I put the hatch on....................................................     /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


           Never drive faster than your Guardian Angel can fly.
                         
                           73, John de VK2XGJ


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The California Railroad Museum has #4294 on static display.  I think you can see the top of the tender from the second floor, if not you could ask the museum for permission to climb up on the tender.  Ok, that is a little extreme unless you live in Sacramento or nearby.


You could search the Otto Perry photo collection at the Denver Public Library, Colorado Historical Society, and Denver Art Museum.  http://history.denverlibrary.org/    This is an example Cab Forward photo from their collection:  http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00015688+OP-15688  


Link to "The Southern Pacific Cab Forward" - http://www.steamlocomotive.com/cabforward/ . Part of Steam Locomotive dot Com - http://www.steamlocomotive.com/  This sie also has AD drawings you can download but they are side view only.


Click on the "Southern Pacific Cab-Forward's Steam Roster" at the bottom of the page.  The site has links to quite a few photos for the entire roster of SP Cab Forwards.  One is to the CA RR Museum's Cab Foerward, although an arial shot it only shows a portion of the tender.  http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp4294.jpg  This photo came from the Southern Pacific Cab-Forward's Steam Roster and Steam Locomotive dot Com.


This isn't a photo of the tender top but it is one of the best photos of the #4294 http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?january06/01-28-06/SP4294atSacramentoCA9-69MacOwenColl.jpg .  It is from the *Railfan.net ABPR Image Archives*  http://railfan.net where you may find more - but there is a large amount of data links to go through. 

Maybe someone who lives in Sacramento will read your post and volunteer to visit the CRRM and take a photo of #4294's Tender for you.

I'd suggest looking at a O Guage loco brass model but somehow I don't think that would answer your question.

Hope some of it helps.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The above links came from following google results searching on "SP Cab Forward Locomotives"

I didn't think to try a search on "Cab Forward Tender" where I found the link "*SP Locomotive Drawings - Tender Drawings - Steam Engines - Plans" http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/id28.html
*AC-12 Drawngs: http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/drawings/sp_ac-12_4-8-8-2.htm

Note the Tender Drawings are listed on a separate page from the locomotives: http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/drawings/sp_tenders.htm  I cannot decifer whether the tender you are looking for is among those drawngs listed, but I hope so.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Many thanks for the reply Chris.   Ahhh yes I've been trolling the various images available on the web but so far no detail of the tender top.   I guess I'll be watching a couple of DVD's I have on the AC tonight with my finger on the Pause button.


My HO model has been detailed with the platform but this AC is a little larger and I can't find where I got that info from.


 


 


              Never drive faster that your Guardian Angel can fly.


                       73, John de VK2XGJ


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The book, Steam Over Donner by Duncan Steel, there are atleast a dozen photos of top shots covering AC3-AC12 engines.  About 6 photo of very good photos that one can see tender top details.  None of these reference photos show wood decking.  The shops and crews could have  modified the engine/tender in various ways to include wood decking on the tender deck.  Most of the reference photos on web are track level.    I'm sure that other rederence books and experts such as Alan will find a photo.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I've made up the wooden walk-way for the AC-12 and now I can have the hatch cover on the loco without it falling into he tender.  It is a little difficult and expensive for me to go to Sacremento and check out the real AC-12 as I live about 600 miles north of Gordon Watson in Australia. 
I'll try and get a pix up for those interested.
  By the way ,I hope to take her out on her first run tomorrow.  Only a short run, about twenty feet up and back but it will be a start.

                 Never drive faster than your Guidian Angel can fly.
                           John de VK2XGJ.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

test


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

What you really want is a copy of Churches book "The Cab Forwards", it has drawings, photos and discription of each one of the Cab Forward classes.

Andre


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Research thus far based on top view photos:
4182            AC-8            Jul 1946        No wood deck
4214            AC-10        Sept 1946      no wood deck
4242            AC-10        Apr 1949        No wood deck
4157            AC-7            Jun 1950        No wood deck
4285            AC-12           Jun 1950    No wood deck
4210            AC-10          Jun 1950     No wood deck
4191 4108 AC-8, AC-4    Jun 1950    No wood deck
4158            AC-7            Jul 1950      No wood deck
4266            AC-11        Sept 1950        No wood deck
4158            AC-7            Jul 1952        No wood deck

4294          AC-12        Feb 2008        Wood deck

Sorry, I could not find a photo but am looking forward to a photo of your modification adding the wood deck.  Hope the engine runs at the level of your energy and enthusiasm for the model.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Many thanks for the infor Charles. Greatly appreciated. No joy running her yesterday, the gas valve expired and I couldn't get gas into the tank. I won't bother telling what I said or was thinking, all I'll say is that I invented some new words and ways of using them. B-)


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I was looking forward to your feedback.  So, the gas valve on the fuel tank went south?  Gordon probably has a replacement.  Any photos of your retrofit with the wood deck?  I'll keep looking might find one that you could  document and even change the number to match.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the feedback about the attempt at running the AC-12. 
After beating off the photographers     I finally tried to steam her. 
Found out that the cylinder cock drain levers are still below the railhead and bent to front left hand one.   /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif
Going to have to do something about being able to open and close the smokebox door to check the burning of both burners, these little things will keep me off the streets for a while till I can fix them.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I've fixed the non-closing smokebox door.   No I didn't use a 12lb sledge hammer,  though I wanted to. 
With a safety edge file I broke the square edge to the door, filing in a 40deg (approx) slope so that the door had a lead-in.    Now a sharp flick of the door and a smart tap of the finger and the smokebox door is closed.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I've made myself a little do-hickey to operate the cylinder cocks when I cut about 1/8" off the lever so that it is above railhead height.  
It is simply a piece of brass with tthe end drilled to fit over the cylinder cock then  filed a slit across it so that the circumcized lever will fit into the slot.  It works well so far.  

A question, where is the bell on the AC-12?  I never thought about this before.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm, it looks as though I'm talking to myself here.  I suppose that way I'll get some intelligent answers./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif

I'm getting ready for the first run on a large layout, next Tuesday will be the day.
I've improved my little do-hickey for opening and closing the cylinder cocks,  circumcised the cylinder cock levers so that they clear the railhead,  extended the bypass tube in the tender so that it can be seen and I'm rearing to go.   /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif

One mod I must do is change the lubricator to a larger version and put the steampipe through the lubricator as I did for my Open-Cab Shay.  This will slow down the use of steam oil instead of the loco taking  it all in a few gulps.
I wrote it up for the Steam in the Garden magazine a few years ago and it works well.


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## GrizzlyFlatsFan (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks, John.  Will you be able to post a few pictures after the big run next week?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
I assume it is under the cab unlike the earlier on that is on top of the cab.
Interesting article:
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/selkirk.html


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## GrizzlyFlatsFan (Jan 5, 2008)

That's a great article, Charles. Thanks for posting the link. It describes all of the changes that would be required to make a cab forward from a 'normal'. Very interesting.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Has anyone worked out how to remove/replace the couplers on the AC-11/12  yet?
 I want to replace them with a pair of Precision Scale couplers same as I did with my NGG16. 
Also the front coupler is also lower than the tender coupler so double heading is going to be a problem.
There hasn't been very much discussion on the AC-11/112 lately,  don't tell me you blokes have worn them out already?  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John
Actually trying to figure out how to prevent them from wearing out.  We have a few retrofit concepts on the burner....
As for running, we will be running at a meet this weekend with the AC-12 and GS4-GW.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Heeeeeeeey, Shaylover, ease up, mate!  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif

Put the long silences down to the fact that you are still one of the VERY few people who actually HAS one of these locos.  If everybody had one, I'm sure your queries would have been answered in seconds....

Most of us, me included, are learning from YOUR queries.

Take it easy, eh?

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

You also need to remember that we are just coming out of winter inthe northern hemisphere - so not too many opportunities to run in these climes. We'll ask you the same question in 6 months or so.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes I wish I lived in the US, in the nice cold.  Here in Australia our winters are mild but our summer's are so flaming hot you could cook an egg on a rock.  I kid you not!   So when you think it is too cold to go out, please send me some of that cold.   
You can probably judge by my comments that I like cold, I can't take to heat anymore, too old and too many medical problems.
I'm going to see if I can change out the couplers on the AC-12 and hook them up to the coupler bars after I finish filing up the Precision Scale castings.  I can't upload pix so I'll send them to someone who can do so for me.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

I'm stuck with doing consulting work out of town (still flunking retirement) so unable to run mine until early June. Maybe Charles will post some pictures from ECLSTS so I can live vicariously! 

Best regards, and keep steaming ! 

Alan


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought I saw a pix somewhere of a pair of Accucraft AC-12's double-heading, how were they coupled together as the front coupler is at least 15mm too low for the tender coupler. 
I've managed to change the tender coupler for a Kadee #821 that I was using on my Bachmann battery Shay and now I want to change the coupler on the front of the AC-12. Both in height and useability. All that money and just a piece of plastic for couplers. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

Ryan and I were double heading at Cabin Fever just using the stock Accucraft dummy couplers. I really didn't pay any attention to coupler height, we just did it.... Also, Jim Stapleton was doing pusher duty on the end of a train with Pete Gregores. I don't know if Jim had done anything with his AC-11 couplers at that point, but he normally changes all his 1:32 cars to Kadees immediately. 

Best regards, 

Alan


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John 
Alan is remarkable given his time away from the tracks relative to his recall of running a AC-11/12 (left to right- Jeff, Alan, Ryan and Pete):


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan, are you still "stuck out of town"? The snow and ice are finally gone here in Vt, and Llyn and I will be steaming tomorrow afternoon, enjoying predicted 70's temps. 
Be careful now--all work and no steaming might just make you a grumpy old (non) live steamer. 

Larry


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## cabforward (Feb 18, 2008)

John 
How were you able to get the coupler pin out of the tender? 
The pin on my tender seems to be glued in or maybe I just dont want to force it out. 
Did you modify the Kadee in any way? 
If you could post or email me the pics of the coupler offline that would be helpful. 
Thanks 
Matt


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt, you'll find that the pin in the tender is just a force fit. I used a small jewlers screwdriver to lever it up bit by bit until I could get a good purchase on it. I used a Kadee #821 on the tender, the short version and at one time it lived on my battery Shay and is a perfect fit to the tender of the AC-12. 
I'm changing all the couplers on the 1/32 rolling stock to Kadee #820's, they look good and work well. 
I may have to change the front coupler to an upward joggled Kadee, I don't know what the number is until I check. Hope this helps Matt.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I realize I'm awfully late on this, but while in Sacramento for the NSS, a few of us took a side trip to the Railway Museum. I remembered this thread and snapped couple of photos. Perhaps they'll be of use to someone.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight 
Ryan also made the side trip and enjoyed a visit to the only existing Cab Forward is available to amaze all. 
One thing we have not been able to obtain is the location of the bell.... 
Please post any other photos for us to enjoy 
The beast: Massive and powerful allowing for many avenues of service in some very challenging landscapes 








The beauty: no wonder trains attracted people, colorful along with an adventure for all 








The legend: the Delta King (twin to the Delta Queen) a great spot for lunch and accommodations as it is now a hotel


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Many thanks Dwight for the pix. And Charles too. 
I've had a couple of jet problems with my AC-12. Should be fixed now I hope. She now has an Accucraft caboose to pull and I'm in the middle of rewiring to battery rather than rail power. The actual globes are 1.5V with a constant voltage device and switch before it. More later.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John 
We await the revised AC-11GW as it makes its return from the master hands of Gordon Watson.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice photos Charles.  The two I posted are the only ones I took of the cab forward 'cause all I remembered is the first post in this thread asking for such photos.  The rest are detail shots of the Sonoma - mostly the lettering and the pilot (which is going to be a bear to make). I have an idea how to approach it though.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 07/30/2008 4:27 PM 
Dwight 
One thing we have not been able to obtain is the location of the bell.... 


Charles, 


Photos of AC4-AC6 have the bell centered above the cab (no photos for AC1-AC3): 













Gone on AC7-AC12: 












The MC-4 also... (MC-1 & MC-2 photos cannot see a bell) 












And: 


Maybe the bell is in the Cab? 


Your rumored AC-11/12 remake into an older Vanderbilt tender CF is a chance for a front bell.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris 
I was thinking the bell might have been under the cab or pilot area... 

Yes, Alan is planning on a conversion to an earlier model. To what extent he will employ our service beyond the mechanical upgrades, we have yet to talk in depth about that. 

Cab forward museum shots: thanks to Ryan! I wish I was there to see and record...


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, I understand that the AC-11GW is almost ready for despatch. 
I spoke with Gordon about two days ago and it looks like mine is "going under the knife" later this year or possibly next year. At the moment I'm still learning how to drive the beast and fix some of the little funnies like leaking gas fillers etc.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John 
Given my communications with Gordon and the VERY,VERY extensive rehab on our engine, Gordon might need some time to forget the trials and tribulations of the ordeal necessary to set it right (kinda like being a parent for the second time, if years between you forget want it takes in time and money). We are extremely grateful to Gordon for taking on the project. We have learned enormous volumes about getting it right both for the long term and performance levels through Gordon's insight and all the initial work Ryan has done. 
Hope your Cabforward, once done properly, will be impressive and enduring.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI, I have a friend who lives and breathes Southern Pacific steam. I asked him about the bell location (I figured if anyone would know - hehehe). Here's his reply... 

*Dwight, as I recall it was down near the ladder up into the cab, behind that after cooler radiator. The hot air came out of the pumps and was cooled before going into the air reservoirs. The earlier AC's had them up high in the center of the cab, AC4/5/6. The newer AC's had the air rung bell, just like the GS2/3/4/5/6's did. If ya need more info let me know I will do some serious research.* 

Is this good enough or should I ask him to dig?


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, 

Thanks for digging! Onward to the AC-6..... 

Best regards, 

Alan


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, 

Heard but not seen. That's enough for me. There's no room behind that radiator anyways, as the reversing assembly has a gearbox there.


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Ac11 & 12 bell is under the cab.


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