# Digital Command, your ideas?



## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Hello guys,
Just wondering what system you have in digital command, why you use it, the pros and cons, expenses involved, the quality, your personal thoughts? Anything you'd like to share to give some direction to anyone just starting in G-scale to help them with their choice?

Thanks!


-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that the best way to solve the question is go into this know what you will eventually expect from your system. 

My personal recommendations vary a lot depending on track or battery power, and how many locos at a time are running and how many people at the same time are running trains. 

Start with answers to those 3 questions. I would again recommend that you think where you want to end up, not what will get you by for this year or two. 

(this is based on my personal opinion that you can and should pick a system that you will expand into, not something you throw away in 2 years when you outgrow it, it can be a significant investment over time no matter which way you go). 

You can read why I am track power and DCC and the reasons for all of my other decisions on my web site... the FAQ section is good. 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I also have opinions, as does everybody. Command control of SOME kind is good. DCC is one form of command control that works IF track power works. If track power does not work for you, then battery RC is the way to go. 

IMHO, command control systems are indeed worth the expense and inevitable troubles that will occur during the change over. 

link to my DCC page with an intro as to why command control is the hot setup.. http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/dcc_tips.html


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The reality is that track power always works (if setup correctly







)

I have no issues with track power. (Stainless steel track, railclamps on every joint) And then I refeed track power ever 100 yard. So I have DCC (Zimo DCC).

When doing RC, how do you control your switches, how do your control your accessories, how do you allow for special controls based on location, without running a bunch of wires from a central control point to the switch location.

Of course oyu can decide to do it the old fashion way - run to the location and manually move the switch, but honestly the options are endless with DCC, so when you buy the right system, you will never be sorry to have reached its limitation.

The startup costs are a little higher, but then you are on par with RC, and you don't have to run any wires


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm kind of a novice and I have in some ways an odd system--DCC over Airwire. It works extremely well. The nice thing about DCC is all the fussing you can do--setting the loco's performance characteristics just right for example. You can control a lot of sounds. You can do consists that work perfectly, because you can speed match the engines. All that stuff is a lot of fun. And as Axel said, if you have track ower DCC you can trip switches and reverse loops with no trouble. Someday I suspect I'll go to track power/dcc


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Cost is an issue. 

Startup cost for a high end DCC system with radio walkaround controls is higher than the startup cost for the conversion of a couple of locos to battery/RC. However, incremental cost for DCC is lower. Depending on what system (of either kind) you decided to use, the crossover point is somewhere between 5 and 10 locos. Past 10 locos, DCC is less expensive but you will still spend $55 (and up) for a decoder without sound and $127 and up) for one with sound.


Battery/RC costs are typically $150 and up without sound and $230 and up with sound. These are all DIY costs. If you have somebody do it for you, it'll cost more.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Gents, 

I will refrain from comments here. Everyone has a good point. And yes I will have both DCS and DCC in my layout as time moves on. 

Keep the doors open to options, including battery. There is merit there too. 


This is a matter that applies to one's personal needs, track needs, location be it north, south or Arctic... 

I like the positive flow here. Taking serious notes.. 


gg


PS: Thinking Massoth for DCC control here on pre 1900 locos and shunts... DCS for mainline passenger and freight.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

An important aspect is what hand controller you like, pick up a few and try to use them, the hobby shop should be able to help you out here. 

If you’re not happy or the controller is uncomfortable to use, your DCC experience will not be pleasurable. This is a personnel choice, the controller I like others won’t necessarily enjoy. 

Another important part for me was how easily was the system to update? As new features come out will you need to replace the system or just a simple upgrade? 

If your going outdoors (which I will some day) you will probably want to go wireless. Check to see if wireless add ons are easy later on when you won’t to upgrade. Other manufactures may make wireless add ones for your system, for example CVP products. 

Hope this will help you along, you’re on the right track 
Alan


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By steam5 on 04/07/2009 7:31 PM
An important aspect is what hand controller you like, pick up a few and try to use them, the hobby shop should be able to help you out here. 

If you’re not happy or the controller is uncomfortable to use, your DCC experience will not be pleasurable. This is a personnel choice, the controller I like others won’t necessarily enjoy. 

Another important part for me was how easily was the system to update? As new features come out will you need to replace the system or just a simple upgrade? 

If your going outdoors (which I will some day) you will probably want to go wireless. Check to see if wireless add ons are easy later on when you won’t to upgrade. Other manufactures may make wireless add ones for your system, for example CVP products. 

Hope this will help you along, you’re on the right track 
Alan 



Bingo.... so true.. 
DCC and DCS and Battery gives this option re wireless. 

gg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I can say from my own experience that the Zimo handhelds leave no whishes open







.  I have used Zimo now since the time I went outdoors (8 year or so).  I love the unit and I haven't come accros a function that is not implmented in a small easy to use and understand handheld, that fits easily in the plam of your hand.  But in addition the design is beautiful.







  As a tech guy I don't like the 60s desgins, e.g. the i-Phone wouldn't have been so popular if it would look like your first cell phone







.  You can argue that I am saying it becasue we now distribute Zimo, but the reality is I wouldn't distribute Zimo if I wouldn't beleive it and have experienced it.
 
I offer now a free trial of the Zimo system - 
you pay for shipping and I provide the base station, the transformer, the handheld and you can try it.  
If you like it, you can keep it - if not you return it - no questions asked.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that looks like a very tempting offer. 

Axel.
I take it the recipient has to provide a DCC equipped loco?
What if they are complete newcomers and don't have any DCC equipped locos?


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps the best thing is: if a layout is wired for DCC (any brand), it also wired for DC. That means you can run anybodies train on it. A simple double pole double throw switch will allow to switch between DCC and DC on a loop or section of your layout. If it is center off, you can even turn off the power to the track.

This means that when somebody comes over with an engine and wants to run it, he/she can without a problem. DC, DCC, battery or live steam can all run on your layout.


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

I started in DC track power 12 yrs ago and just kinda played with it for 10 yrs as it was very easy to operate. I decided 2.5 yrs ago to switch to DCC. I liked the idea that I could power all the accessories around my layout by just hooking two wires to the track and I had not only power but control over the function. I can operate my turnouts from my Cab and also sounds to my different buildings, etc. After looking at all my options for DCC systems I decided on the NCE wireless Cab system and have been very happy with it. I am running Brass track, a mixture of Aristo and LGB, and I think that brass track gets a bad rap on the oxidation issue. I have great control og my engines and lighted cars with my track. basically it boils down to not only what you like but, what are your friends running. It is great to be able to share your successes and your failures with those that are running the same system that you are. I have a friend close by that has the same system and another friend in California that has the same system and he is the brain trust we use to help when there is a problem or a new piece of equipment that we don't know how to operate. I am definitely not an electron type of guy but for Me the NCE DCC system has been great and I am still on a fairly vertical learning curve. There are others that feel strongly about their systems and it is individual preference that makes this such a great hobby.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Not to divert the issue, but the point about brass track and the bad rap..... Could that be a regional issue? Here in MA it takes about 1 month on the outside on the ground for Brass to turn black. In comparison in my basement the same track hardly tarnishes at all?

So your decision to run DC, DCC, or Battery Power has to be made in combination with the region you live in for the proper track choice. I personally run Stainless Steel, but would have been Nickel plated Brass available I would have chosen that. Price wise Nickel Plated is cheaper than Stainless, offers similar anti corrosive properties but has the conductivity of Brass - almost a best of both worlds!


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

Great point Axel. I live in the Metro Atlanta area and everyone said to run SS track. My one club runs DC and has an outdoor layout of about 1000+ ft of brass track that has been out over 10 yrs. Georgia definitely has a more corrosive climate than say Los Angles, I am thinking of the Pomona fairgrounds display that has some brass track that is really old, over 50 years and maybe older, but a great climate that is not moist and very little rain. The last two years I have been spending a lot of time in California and their climate is really great compared to anything East of the Mississippi concerning humidity and rain and can run anything out there and it will be great. So with the clubs track I am a stubborn rascal and wanted to see how bad the brass oxidizes. So far so good with the exception of the diceduous leaves and the pine needles which is bad no matter whether you use track power or battery power 9stinkin leaves). Alas, I don't think there is a perfect answer but you comment about the region certainly has strong merit.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The Pomona layout had steel handmade track. About 10 years ago, it all got ripped up and replaced. I am not a member there so I am not sure what it was replaced with, but it looks like brass. 

The LA area is environmentally benign, brass works fine and most of the layout here use track power of some kind or another. In other areas, not so much...


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

You are correct in the original track being steel. I wonder how old the brass track that was laid in concrete was?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience is that some people have very little oxidation with brass track, and some people have a lot of problems. I live 1 mile from the Pacific ocean and had to take the oxide off the rails with an LGB track cleaner every 2 days or less to have acceptable running, even with locomotives with "sliders". 

So, some people can use brass, some basically cannot. 

I always recommend SS first because it always works. 

That does not mean people should forget brass rail, it just means they will have to see if they are "lucky" or not. 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

basically it boils down to not only what you like but, what are your friends running. It is great to be able to share your successes and your failures with those that are running the same system that you are. I have a friend close by that has the same system and another friend in California that has the same system and he is the brain trust we use to help when there is a problem or a new piece of equipment that we don't know how to operate. 


Barry makes a great point about using a system your mate’s do, group sharing knowledge will also help you work out your DCC system. 

Or if you go your own way your mates might feel jealous if your system is better  

Alan


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I don't know anything about Zimo Axel. Since you are going to be at the SEGRS I will make sure to bombard you with questions there. I don't know how but I missed the Train-Li booth at the ECLSTS. *shrugs* I wanted to thank you guys for the railbender and the nice note that came with it ^^ I can't wait to start laying track just so I can use it finally. 

-Will


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Dear Wiil and others:

Yes tradeshows are perfect opportunities to get into the nitty, gritty of the system and its capabilites. I am looking forward to it. 

Thank you Will for the compliment. And I expect I have a little bit more time for each custoemr on SEGRS than on ECLSTS so tha tis very good for you


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Excellent Axel ^^ I have a DCC question about speed. DCS uses an optical reader and a flywheel to acquire SMPH. How does DCC do this? Since no two locomotives run at exactly the same speed, how do they accomodate for speed variance when MU'ing a consist or when trying to keep trains at a set distance apart and maintain that distance? Will any DCC system mixed with any decoder work?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

DCS uses an optical encoder to guarantee a particular speed given a "speed step"... very nice, although makes installation in a non DCS locomotive expensive and difficult. 

DCC just gives you a "voltage" per speed step. you can set the voltage(s) at various speed steps with 2 settings (min speed - and max speed)... you can also (on most decoders) specify a "mid" speed voltage. That suffices for almost all locos to match speeds to what you want. You can on some decoders change the "shape" of the "speed curve" , i.e. speed step vs voltage from flat to curved, and also on most decoders, you can completely customize the "speed curve" to set a custom voltage at every speed step. 

Again, in almost every case, the simple setting of the start speed and the top speed is sufficient to match locos to each other. I did a custom speed curve on 2 USAT locos once just to experiment, and ran them on the same track 2 feet apart for about 6 hours... and they stayed 2 feet apart. That level of precision is way overkill, but it can be done. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I cannot speak for all DCC systems, but I can speak for ZIMO. Zimo's 69 (without sound) and Zimo 690 decoders allow many different parameters to be set. One particular feature I like is the maximum motor voltage. Now speed is no longer a function of percent of full track voltage, but speed and all steps from standstill to full speed are a fraction of the maximum motor voltage (e.g. 16V). This is in particular important on longer layout where you have due to track length maximum voltage variations, but your engine would not show any speed variation. 

Zimo also has a load recognition test run. During the adjustment run the software auto adjusts to the locos driving behavior. In addition during normal runs ZIMO constantly regulates the speed in a feedback loop called "MpH regulation". So that is comparable to your flywheel operation. 

I have set up a test circle for adjusting engine to MU'ing. After the above procedures I put the engine 1/2 circle apart and run. If I have two very disparate engines, e.g. motor curves, weights and hence differences that change with speed (e.g. I had an engine (out of the box) A be faster than B in low speeds just to see B be faster than A a higher speeds and then A being faster than B again at full speed I use a software interface to click and drag all speed points until I have what I want. 

Let me know if I can answer any more questions.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04/13/2009 3:47 PM
DCS uses an optical encoder to guarantee a particular speed given a "speed step"... very nice, although makes installation in a non DCS locomotive expensive and difficult. 

DCC just gives you a "voltage" per speed step. you can set the voltage(s) at various speed steps with 2 settings (min speed - and max speed)... you can also (on most decoders) specify a "mid" speed voltage. That suffices for almost all locos to match speeds to what you want. You can on some decoders change the "shape" of the "speed curve" , i.e. speed step vs voltage from flat to curved, and also on most decoders, you can completely customize the "speed curve" to set a custom voltage at every speed step. 

Again, in almost every case, the simple setting of the start speed and the top speed is sufficient to match locos to each other. I did a custom speed curve on 2 USAT locos once just to experiment, and ran them on the same track 2 feet apart for about 6 hours... and they stayed 2 feet apart. That level of precision is way overkill, but it can be done. 

Regards, Greg




Good info; 

DCS works on effective RPM of the motor. DCC works on effective voltage supply to the motor. Would diffences in motor manufacturers or types between locos have an impact on accuracy in the DCC system? If so is it anything to worry about?


gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd re-word it just a bit.. DCS has a "feedback loop" to precisely control the motor rpm, using the optical encoder. DCC does not have any standard to require any kind of feedback loop on speed as part of the standard. Some decoders have BEMF, some do not. Some decoders can/do sense the rpm directly. In the US there have been suits threatened on using BEMF in decoders. This has led manufacturers to limit their use of the term BEMF, and also to disable or change systems that would read motor rpm to control the precise speed. 

If you look at the QSI manual, you can see some additional control modes, and it will say they are disabled because of a suit or threatened suit. 

The Zimo, not being from America, can use BEMF to determine the exact rpm of the motor and control the speed accordingly. I do not know the precise details of the limits of control, but most systems allow you to minimize speed variations on grades, for those people who want a pretty constant speed. 

Myself, I do prefer actually "driving" the train, which should naturally need more throttle up a hill, and less down. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes Greg, I totally agree with your logic. 

Driving the train is key. 

Thanks and a relief for me. I like to drive and yes I really don't need to fiddle too much so your comments are really valid. 


My read is that if the correct DCC system is chosen, then one can enjoy both concepts... Drive the train and "detailing" the control portion ( catering to the train buffitic masters ) OR going "Auto" and just use the proper buttons yes? (catering to the "plug'n play and indeed simple lads with priorities cued otherwise"). 


The control system must handle both "ideologies" in an ideal world I would think... 


Am I wrong here? 



gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are completely correct. There is a ton of customization you can do in DCC. You can get up and running right away, and then "tweak" stuff as you have time and interest. 

All decoders come with "Reasonable" settings for speed, momentum, etc. It really only gets as complex as you want it to. You could run trains without doing anything except setting unique addresses for your locos and run that way for years. (They all come set for address 3 by default). 

One other item is that while all DCC decoders come with a large common set of features, you can buy different decoders with more "icing on top" if you want, and they are all compatible. I have NCE, QSI, MRC and Soundtraxx decoders on my system. No problem. That's the advantage of an open standard and multiple vendors. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Good, feedback was mentioned in your comments re DCS. This as it applies to doing lashups etc. 

I see opportunities for both technologies and battery as well: 

DCS: Link your trains and do not worry about spatial distance over time. 

DCC: Link your trains and yes and be a bit more sensitive to spatial distance due to the lack of feedback capability with the host. 



Now the twister and the "battery boys"... how do they handle this bit? 



gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In reality, unless there are gross differences in speed, when you mu locos and you have a load, the locos "even out".... they share the load pretty well... so close is good enough. Many people check the locos out when they are not pulling a load, just the locos, and see some bucking and think it's bad, but put a train on it and you will see things smooth out. 

Now, locos that run very different speeds need to be set so they are close. There's no denying that the MTH system is exact in this area, but it's not necessary to be exact. 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04/13/2009 8:25 PM
In reality, unless there are gross differences in speed, when you mu locos and you have a load, the locos "even out".... they share the load pretty well... so close is good enough. Many people check the locos out when they are not pulling a load, just the locos, and see some bucking and think it's bad, but put a train on it and you will see things smooth out. 

Now, locos that run very different speeds need to be set so they are close. There's no denying that the MTH system is exact in this area, but it's not necessary to be exact. 

Regards, Greg






Greg...... Greg.... 


I knew it... you actually have a soft spot for DCS...









Damm Greg, I am sure that Nick and Semper would comment on this !










Enjoy !










gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They have some nice ideas, and great sounds (although I can do without the cab chatter) and their smoke units are hard to beat. 

Soon they will be DCC compatible, so it could be a VERY tempting thing to look at... though on the ground 1:29 looked better to me than 1:32.... I agonized about that decision... 

Regards, Greg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I







1:29

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Engineercub on 04/13/2009 11:49 PM
I







1:29

-Will 








I







1:32 AND I







1:29 and I







1:20




I will be getting 1:29 Bachman rolling stock to fit my 1:32 Triplex. Nice fit. 




I will be growing my fleet with either 1:29 or 1:20 (1:22) mining or logging locos and refitting them with DCS or alternately launching myself into DCC Control. Pre 1900 locos fit very well into the 1:20 (1:22?) world in my opinion. 


I will be evaluating battery power on shunts and mtnce locos (sweeping, plowing etc). 

In short I refuse to let myself be confined to one scale. 


Room for all


gg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello guys, 
Just wondering what system you have in digital command, why you use it, the pros and cons, expenses involved, the quality, your personal thoughts? Anything you'd like to share to give some direction to anyone just starting in G-scale to help them with their choice? 



Hi Will, 

Lots of good info by everyone so far. I'll relate something that happened at our place last night as a testament to why I use Massoth: 
Last night we had some guests over for supper, and after dinner they wanted to see the trains run. By this time it was starting to get dark and it had been raining, so I went out and checked the track for branches and put on my RhB Heidi since it has lights, smoke and sound. Turned the power on and away we went. It took me less than a minute in the dark to show our guests how to use the Massoth navigator controller (which has backlit keys and screen) and before long they were driving the neighbours nuts blowing the horn, playing the station announcement etc. They commented on how easy and intuitive the controller was and really liked the rotary dial and screen. Then my two young boys (7 &13) came out with their trains and controllers, and before long it was sure busy on the tracks! So after a while everyone was starting to get cold and so we put things away and went inside. 
Five minutes later there was a knock on the door and it was more friends who had brought a whole group of visitors from out of town by, who wanted to see the trains run too! So...we got them all out again, put more trains on and in a few minutes they were using our three navigator controllers having a great time blowing horns, ringing bells, screeching brakes, playing announcements etc. All of this in the dark and they had no problems at all. I explained the technology to them and they were impressed that although the technology is sophisticated, the implementation was simple and intuitive. So I relate this story to you because it illustrates how important the controller is in the big scheme of things. 
One thing that helped me to decide on a system was to read the online manuals for all the different systems. After I did that, the choice was pretty clear for me. As for price, I would say to you that it's much more important that you get a system you'll be happy with and that good long term value is what you want. One other thing: Massoth makes their own decoders and while they are 100% NMRA compatible, there is an added benefit to using components that are engineered as part of a system. Zimo does the same thing and is another reason why they are top notch products. 
Good luck with your investigations! 
Keith


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks a bunch Keith, this is the kind of reply I was hoping for. For someone just starting in the digital arena, I can't really say what all I expect from my DCC/DCS system. The point of the thread was, what all can they do and what choices do I have in G-scale. People lining up with real experiences to talk about the pros of their system so I can make a better judgment call. It would be an easier call if I knew what each system could do but unfortunately I am at the point that I don't even know what advantages an "8 AMP decoder" has. My trains run at generally 1-3 AMPS @ 18 volts, but my BigBoy runs at 10 AMPS. Do decoders require additional amperage? Are they easy to wire? What is the maximum voltage they can handle? Once I get the hang of DCC I am going to write a thread about it making it easier for people to understand because it sure has a steep learning curve. 

-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Decoders usually have a continuous and a "stall" rating... the continuous rating is what it will theoretically handle forever... the "stall" rating is usually 1-2 seconds, sometimes a bit more. 

In the early days, decoders had little protection from overcurrent, they would blow up if you pulled too much current for even an instant.. newer decoders are better. 

You can tell a few things about a decoder on how it is rated.... if the continuous is 3 amps and the stall is 4 amps... don't risk overloading that one... now an NCE D808 has 8 amp continuous, and 30 amp stall.. get the picture? Almost impossible to hurt one of those. 

The AVERAGE amps you draw are the "continuous" part... what you cannot see it the short spikes of current a loco may draw... you have to have an oscilloscope to read that... 

Also some manufacturers "stretch the truth" a bit in ratings... 

So, there's something for your to chew on... Aristo locos are usually pretty low amps, USAT locos have higher current needs, and of course the "one off" locos like the hudson and the big boy have motors and requirements different from the mainstream USAT locos. 

Does your big boy really draw 10 amps by itself? hmmm... the NCE D808 is one to try for that... 

We can start a decoder thread if you want, and maybe we can suck some of the experts into it... I don't have tons of experience with the ESU and the other European decoders... 

(after decoders we can talk systems, but basically if you buy a top end one, you won't be missing anything... you can pick pretty much by how well your like the handheld, and the wireless system).. 

Regards, Greg


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## veejo (Apr 16, 2009)

A decoder thread would be GREAT, I've got to get some for my G scale that I'm just getting into, although I got the HO stuff sorted. So experience, comparisons, etc of decoders would save alot or trawling. And thre is nothing worse than sinking $50 and finding out you could have got a better one for $52 :-( 
Now to check out the NCE D808, 8/30 amps, sounds like the pitbull of decoders


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Start one! Good idea! 

Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

you can find some information about SOME DCC decoders on my DCC page. There are newer ones available but these are the ones that I own and am familiar with. 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/dcc_tips.html


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