# It's all in the details



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I was perusing Ozark's site for some bits 'n bobs that I thought I might like to add while I have that bug mauler apart.... the order would have been over $40







, and that doesn't even include any of the stuff (most of what I want) that I already happen to HAVE here.... I understand they have to make a profit in a tiny niche market, and I'm very glad they are willing to do this kind of stuff. (and I also noticed that I've already placed 5 orders with them over the last year...)


BUT, it DOES kind of give you pause when you suddenly realize the total outlay for all those bitty pieces parts you glue on is MORE than you paid for the whole stinking locomotive (or car) to start with!

Good thing nobody ever considered bashing as a way to SAVE money, ain't it?l.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

$40? Lucky, I have put twice that in some HO projects in details, etc... 

The best one was 10 or so years back when I decided to build my own PRR SD40, and not buy a Kato to save some coin. Rail Power Products shell, can motor, Athearn trucks, details, paint, decals.....savings my foot!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, the total for all the detail pieces I wanted, from Ozark & Trackside -- including the pieces I already have would have been somewhere around $85-90... on a $50 loco that would still be worth at most maybe $100 when finished (no matter how much you dress it up, it's still just another plastic bug mauler, lol). 

Note to the guys who do plastic and resin castings... We could REALLY use some inexpensive universal pieces like globe and angle valves, injectors, Nathan, Chicago and/or Detroit lubricators, 3 and 5 chime whistles, drifting valves, brake cylinders and stands, marker lights, etc. Yes I CAN build them, but if I could spend a couple bucks (note I said 'a couple',... IMO $7.00 each for a dinky little injector casting is a bit much, considering how fast 10, 15 or 20 items add up) to save a couple hours of farting around working under a magnifying glass.... OTOH, if you're going to charge $6 shipping on $15-20 worth of stuff, I might not. Also, package deals on a set of 'common' upgrade parts to do one loco might be nicer and more convenient than having to buy a package of 8 pieces of one part when you only need two, or forgeting to order two or three of some part that comes packaged individually. 

But then the only thing I'm probably actually good at in business, is going out of business.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Note to the guys who do plastic and resin castings... We could REALLY use some inexpensive universal pieces like globe and angle valves, injectors, Nathan, Chicago and/or Detroit lubricators, 3 and 5 chime whistles, drifting valves, brake cylinders and stands, marker lights, etc. Yes I CAN build them, but if I could spend a couple bucks (note I said 'a couple',... IMO $7.00 each for a dinky little injector casting is a bit much, considering how fast 10, 15 or 20 items add up) to save a couple hours of farting around working under a magnifying glass.... OTOH, if you're going to charge $6 shipping on $15-20 worth of stuff, I might not. Also, package deals on a set of 'common' upgrade parts to do one loco might be nicer and more convenient than having to buy a package of 8 pieces of one part when you only need two, or forgeting to order two or three of some part that comes packaged individually. 


I have the ability to make patterns and cast parts in both metal and plastic but I need to know that I can sell enough of a given part. As for prices $7 may seem a bit steep but unless you KNOW what costs are involved it's kind of hard to judge. First there is the cost of the design/ pattern/tooling which needs to be amortized over the number of parts you think you can sell. Then there is casting time/materials. Then add to that the cost of overhead. The cost of making the castings is in reality very cheap if you are set up for it (which costs a fortune). The most expensive part is in the pattern and tooling. A "rule of thumb" that I go by, based on experience, is multiply the cost of making the part X4 and your get the minimum retail price. Depending on the injector casting and how complex the design is, the market, etc $7 may be reasonable. Parts like that may have cores that need to be placed. Parts like that probably aren''t going to fly off the shelf. Shipping cost is often dictated by the particular carrier and the cost of packing. Today I had a customer wanting cheaper than the post office quoted for international shipping which isn't going to happen. 

IF there is a demand for a particular part at a reasonable price I'd be interested them. Precisely what do you want???

Jack


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 03/05/2009 2:18 PM
[edited] 
Good thing nobody ever considered bashing as a way to SAVE money, ain't it?l.


















Um ... I did.









Les


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

What do I want? Everything for nothing just like every other consumer, lol. A basic upgrade at a package price would be really sweet, though. 

This is the $7 injector, each loco has two = $14: 









This is a $7 brake stand, if your loco has both independent and train brakes then you need two of these as well = $14 (14+14=28): 









This is the only multi-chime whistle that I've seen, it's fairly reasonable at $3.50 -- IF you're ordering enough to make the shipping worthwhile(28+3.50=$31.50) 









Builder's plate, optional but nice to have, only $1.50 through Ozark (see 0295), but again you need two= $3 (31.50+3=$34.50) 

Backhead Throttle, all anybody seems to make even though many engines had throttles mounted ON TOP of the boiler instead.Ozark (183) = $2.67 (34.5+2.67=$37.17) 

Johnson (reverser) bar, Ozark (182) = $4 (37.17+4=$41.17) 

Small and large pop valves, conveniently 2 identical in a package, except some locos like The Ks on the C&TS have one of each size... from Ozark, Sm (170) $1.68, lg (171) =$2.03 (41.17+2.03=$43.20) 

Water column, Ozark (188) =$3.48 (43.20+3.48=$46.68) 

Set of 3 try cocks, Ozark (186) = $1.62 (46.68+1.62=$48.30) 

Drifting valves, pair, Ozark (189) = $1.68 (48.30+1.68=$49.98) 

backhead tray w/ oil can, Ozark = $1.92 (49.98+1.92=$51.90) 

smokebox cleanouts, pair, Ozark (204) = $3.07 (51.90+3.07=$54.97) 

boiler washout plugs, set of 4, Ozark (210) = $1.86 (54.97+1.86=$56.83) 

boiler steps, set of 4, Ozark (214) = $3.02 (56.83+3.02=$59.85) 

Brake hose set (sold as enough for 2), Ozark (41) = $3.71 (59.85+3.71=$63.56) 

Classification lights, pair, Ozark (90) =$4.70 (63.56+4.70=$68.26) 

Poker and rake set, Ozark (74) = $1.68 (68.26+1.68=$69.44) 

rerail frog, $3.07 x 2, Ozark (169) = $6.14 (69.44+6.14=$73.58) 

turret manifold = $7 (73.58+7.00=80.58)











Detroit lubricator = $7.50 ($80.58+7.50=$88.08)









blow downs $7.00 (88.08+7.00=95.08)













So, I decide to buy these basic items, and what have I accomplished, besides spending almost enough on bling to have purchased a second locomotive? Nothing radical, and we STILL have the crappy bug mauler air pump and tanks, rudimentary cast-in brake cylinders, and haven't even really started on the cab piping. I wouldn't even consider calling it 'superdetailing' yet, because most people probably wouldn't even notice the differences, unless it was pointed out to them.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/06/2009 6:44 PM
Posted By Mik on 03/05/2009 2:18 PM
[edited] 
Good thing nobody ever considered bashing as a way to SAVE money, ain't it?l.


















Um ... I did.









Les


So did I, until I got the bill


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ummm.....Mik, is this a rant or simply an observation? This hobby of ours isn't cheap! The details that Ozark Miniatures, Trackside Details, Hartford, Accucraft, etc... provide are a niche market! Only scale model hobbyists (for the most part) are going to go to the trouble of assembling all of these "blings" into a coherent unit so that it is accurate! The OTB people will be happy with what they get. Yes, it costs a bunch to do it right but isn't that part of what makes it so special? There are all sorts of articles telling us how to scratchbuild things from everyday items. Fletch is the master at it! Sometimes though it helps to cut corners and these detail parts are it! Like the old saying goes, "You can have it quick, you can have it good, you can have it cheap.....pick two!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

This hobby has never been for the "faint of heart" as far as the old wallet is concerned. You get what you pay for and Trackside Details and Ozark make some nice stuff.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I save money too, lots and lots of it, 

So I spend $50 on parts, big deal, a new locomotive is anywhere between $300 to $700 to much more than that, its all realitive. 

Some stuff you can learn to replicate in plastic, some stuff can be fabricated, that Masterclasses taught that to me, but some things are really best bought. Some details can be fabricated "close enough" but if your a serious stickler for exact detail. be prepared to fork over some coin. Luckily I've never been serious about anything, so I dont get hung up on exactness to prototype or any of that stuff 

BTW way are all those things brass? I use almost always Ozark white metal parts, much more affordable


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 03/06/2009 9:31 PM
Ummm...
...
Like the old saying goes, "You can have it quick, you can have it good, you can have it cheap.....pick two! 


All too often I am only allowed to pick ONE







... and then I am told I can't have that either!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 03/06/2009 9:31 PM
Ummm.....Mik, is this a rant or simply an observation? 


An observation... and a hop skip and jump thought progression from the thread about scratchbuilding to save money. I was startled when I sat down and added everything up. It was one of those "HQLY SH$T!!!" moments, where you ask the question "What the H#ll was I thinking?" Spending $90 to fix up a loco you spent $50 (what was left after I sold off the rest of the set) on just sounds really bizarre if you stop to think about it. And none of the parts themselves are really outrageously priced, so you don't notice until you DO add up the total...my mom calls it "nickle and diming yourself to death."


Yes, the Trackside Detail pieces are brass, the Ozark ones white metal, the TD pieces I included are ones the Ozark doesn't make.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I found the pixes you posted most helpful, Mik. Thanks! You're right, it's the shipping that's the back-breaker.

Uh, what's a 'blowdown valve'? A 'drifter valve?' What do they do? I think I can surmise, but would like the word from them as knows.

As far as 'making' vs 'buying'--I'll make or _probably_ do w/o. I have much more time than money. Though yesterday I got a coupon from Harbor Freight on the same day I got a flyer that showed the big toolbit grinder back in stock. 20% off $150 ain't shabby. Could we be forgetting to figure in the 'want vs need' factor? Nah.







Not me.

Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I do lost wax castings.... 

Let's see; the oven to cure the flasks cost $350, the Electromelt furnace around $500, the vac assist casting machine $1200. You carve all the waxes, unless you make a mold... cast one and reproduce it, then youll need to add the rubber vulcanizer platten $400, Air compressor and wax pot $400.. Not to mention incidentals; Mold plates, clamps, mold release, different waxes with different properties, rubber, metal, hot wax pen, TIME.... ok you want what cheap? Oh yeah wanna pay my electric bill? 

Tool prices 4 yrs ago. My set up is for jewelry where we can recoup the overhead faster, niche markets must spread that out over mucho time to keep the costs down, I bet you think these folks are getting rich, I think they're just barely above breaking even.... 

John 

What price do you put on Happiness? I just paid $2300 to get my truck out of the repair shop, am I happy? Well yes I have my truck back and no, sure could have bought all the stainless steel track I wanted....


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

When I order parts that are not too thick, I ask if they can be sent in a bubble pack envelope. As an example, I had E Cubed R/C mail me three Black Kat antennas in a bubble pack envelope. Azaar was concerned about damage, but when I agreed to assume the loss for damage, he agreed. He paid less than $2 for international postage instead of $10, and I had my goods undamaged in 9 days. I saved $8 on shipping costs and the antennas arrived in my mail box in less than half the time it usually takes for an international shipment.

The bubble packs envelopes are shipped as oversized letters and delivered to by your postman. It’s cheaper and faster than even the smallest box. The Post Office outlets have a template for measuring the width and thickness of oversized letters. It looks like a wide mail slot. When I asked “what was the largest bubble pack envelope that would fit?” they replied a number four. It is 9 ½ inches (24 cm) wide by 13 1/2 inches (34 cm) long. That’s big enough to mail 50 two-pin plug sets and a bunch of small electrical components.

All Electronics and courier services will often use bubble pack envelopes for small shipments. They are cheaper than boxes and protective stuffing, easy to seal, and less expensive to post.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

Here's a link that would explain a drifter valve much better than I could.

http://www.livesteam.com/steam_accessories/driftervalve.html

Blowdown valves are on each side of the boiler firebox at the lowest point of the mudring. They are opened by a lever to let steam escape and blow particulates and other foreign material from the mudring. I have two on my 1.5 Allen Ten-wheeler live steamer.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

IF there is a demand for a particular part at a reasonable price I'd be interested


Jack, my first observation is that the LAST thing we want is another vendor making the same items in competition with existing suppliers. Sorry, but that seems like a sure-fire recipe for both to get 1/2 the biz and go bust. 

I think the prices are reasonable. One cost that hasn't been mentioned is the physical requirements: storage for all those parts that are waiting for a buyer, somewhere to put the equipment, and somewhere a long way from the EPA, or an expensive waste disposal system for the cast-offs and by-products. I don't think you can run such a biz in a town - you almost have to have a couple of acres a long way from civilisation. 

Mik, I'm not sure why you were surprised that your parts were going to be more than the cost of the basic loco. Bachmann has spent $$$ on moulds for the plastic model, and you got 1 of the throusands made for a decent price. If you choose to super-detail it, then it will cost lots more! And what about the cost of your time to add all these details. 

Can't wait to see pics of the finished loco!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/07/2009 7:47 AM
I found the pixes you posted most helpful, Mik. Thanks! You're right, it's the shipping that's the back-breaker.

Les



Unless comparison shopping, I have never allowed shipping to be a factor in price on anything. It, like death, taxes and exploxive gas after eating cabbage soup with a tall glass of egg-nog (don't ask) are just facts of life.

While the "amount" may seem high, think a minute.....$30.00 to get an LGB loco from Cali to my doorstep here in Nashvegas is a roaring bargain. Heck, if something were on the west side of Nashville or I could get it shipped for $15, I would take the shipping. There is gasoline, wear and tear, someone would want to stop for a drink, an hour of my time, etc.... 

Naturlly, if I have an option between shipping for $10 or $15, I would take the cheaper amount, but still a fact of life. 

The only exception to this is when someone makes money off of shipping. I paid EUR 39 to have a box shipped that EUR 22 was the actual cost, plus the vendor would not remove VAT....a bit ticked on that







.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

As Vic said, you can often make detail parts yourself that are "close enough" -- especially if you're just trying to fix up a cheap loco. When I detailed the backhead in my Buddy L loco, I didn't want to a lot of money on it -- that loco just isn't worth it. All I wanted was something that looked reasonable and eliminated all that "empty" space on the backhead. 

I used thin brass rods and plastic tubes to make piping and levers. Almost everything else was made from bits and pieces of junk, carefully chosen and modified as needed. Some old HO and N scale brake wheels became valve handles. I made the backhead tray out of styrene. Etc, etc. So it is possible to scratch build or kitbash without spending a lot of cash. Even if you have to buy a few of the more complex parts, building the rest will save you some bucks. 

On the other hand there are situations that warrant the cost of good quality detail parts.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/07/2009 7:47 AM
I found the pixes you posted most helpful, Mik. Thanks! You're right, it's the shipping that's the back-breaker.

Uh, what's a 'blowdown valve'? A 'drifter valve?' What do they do? I think I can surmise, but would like the word from them as knows.

As far as 'making' vs 'buying'--I'll make or _probably_ do w/o. I have much more time than money. Though yesterday I got a coupon from Harbor Freight on the same day I got a flyer that showed the big toolbit grinder back in stock. 20% off $150 ain't shabby. Could we be forgetting to figure in the 'want vs need' factor? Nah.







Not me.

Les



A "Blowdown Valve" is a valve placed LOW on the boiler, usually one in the middle of each side of the firebox or four at or near each corner, sometimes there are more. They are a type of valve that opens and closes very wide and very quickly. Often just a sliding gate across a 1/2" to 1&1/2" diameter hole with little or no piping to or from it. 

They are used to blow the "mud" (minerals, crud and gunk) that collects at the bottom of the boiler as it precipitates out of the water as it is boiled away. The idea being that the high pressure steam above the water forces water across the mud and blows it out of the boiler. Fresh water is then injected into the boiler to replenish what was lost. (Obviously they should not be open for a realy long time!)

Many videos of Steam Excursions have scenes where the engine is on a bridge and massive amounts of steam jet from under the cab on one or both sides for a few seconds. That is a "blowdown" being performed to clean some of the mud out of the boiler.

Some Garden Gauge sized Live Steam manufactures install a valve high on the boiler and call it a "blow down valve" but, strictly speaking, it is just a vent valve to reduce the pressure in the boiler quickly, and is NOT a "blowdown valve". Hopefully the owner has been using distilled water so there is no mud to be blown out of the boiler, so a true "blowdown valve" is not really needed on a miniature boiler.

As jewelry on an electric replica of a steam engine they just need to be a small disk mounted near the bottom on the side of the firebox (one or two on each side) with maybe a lever out the side to simulate the valve.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

What do I want? Everything for nothing just like every other consumer,

Yup, you guys are spoiled!

Those are investment castings and are a *BARGAIN

*Although I don't do investment casting (I have done it in the past) I know the costs involved and how much fun it is. If the source is operating above board and has all the necessary insurance that is a very small price.

Mik, common over to visit me and I'll set you up running a casting machine for a few hours!

Jack


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree Jack. A lot of folks here don't understand the cost of molds or dies. It's surprising to me that our hobby doesn't cost a great deal more than it does!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Garrett,

I can't remember w/o going back and reading the posts more critically, but someone remarked (I _think_ it was Mik--no matter) that paying $28 plus change to ship a $3.50 item was unpalatable.

It is to me too--and I figure the cost as part of the purchase price, since I'm paying it--but here's a problem small businesses ultimately face: it's darn hard to hire anyone who's worth his/her pay to pack well and reliably. Or even show up on time. People who will agree to work cheaply enough for a small businesss produce about half what they cost. This, as an aside, is a hidden negative effect of Minimum Wage. Kids who will work for experience plus some small amount think they have to have at least minimum wage.

What many small businesses do is contract to packing companies, this allows them to bundle up a weekend's worth of sales and drop it off (or get it picked up) and a huge PIA is out of the way. Packing eats up more time in a small business than almost anything I can think of. I think Micro Mark and some eBayers must do this, judging by the uniformity of shipping charges, particularly for small items.

It's a self-defeating circle: if I make a loco part on my lathe for $5, including time, materials and overhead, I might sell it for $15 and make a small but satisfactory profit. Then comes shipping, which doubles my cost if jobbed out, or takes additional time and expense to do myself.

This neglects entirely that customer, perhaps 1 in 100, who cannot be satisfied by definition. Get tied up with one of those and a great deal of manhours go down the drain.

My conclusion is to pay the freight and cost of the item, make it myself, or do without.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gary,

Wonder if it's pertinent to speculate that if LSRRing got *more *expensive, if it would shrink to low visibility? Didn't HO come to be so popular because it's cheap and the products look good, thus more people bought so more products could be offered.... never mind the other features of that scale.

When I page through my 90's era Gazoos, I see ads for 'accessories' companies long gone--and in those days the Gazoo was pretty heavily into HO--not by choice I think, but because that's what was out there being run.

My 70's era NMRA bulletins have a column on O gauge, in which the disappearance of that scale is noted.

In a worst-case estimate, I see LS going two directions, first, high-end expensive items for people with money to spend, and a tail-end charlie of kitbashers and scratchbuilders where the interesting, off-the-$-mainline work will be produced. But since nothing is ever black and white, perhaps there'll still be a few sets of LS with 2 axle pullmans and a D cell engine offered.

Les


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

It has been my observation, over the years, that you can not depend on some small model industry being around forever. Look at Hartford for instance. Was another casting outfit in Texas , but he got sick and I don't think they do anything anymore, don't recall the name. Same with Sulphur Springs recently closing. So, stock up on what you think you will want down the line and cough up the dough now.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gary,

Thank you for taking time to post that link on blowdown valves.

That's something else I don't recall seeing on the big-$ engines.

Les


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Les,

I have two scale model Everlasting blowdown valves on my Gene Allen Ten-wheeler (1/8 scale). The drifter valves(actually I've heard them called snifter valves) are similar to the ones in the link I posted. When I built that locomotive, "sticker shock" was the order of the day! That was in the early eighties. I thought I could save money by building it myself. I bought the kit INCLUDING the boiler finished, for about $2500. All rough castings and the frame out of 1/2 inch bar stock. But when I got down to the finish work of plumbing, steam generator, all the operating valves in the cab, the blowdowns, steam driven water pump, etc., I started to do some choking. I could have had the engine built and delivered to me completely finished within six months of the date I bought the rough parts, for about $14K (1982 dollars). Instead I probably have about 8K into it and many, many years of my labor! I would never build one myself again! But the satisfaction of building one from scratch is very gratifying. indeed. Now I can turn it over to my kids as a "mantle piece"!


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, as I said, the prices don't seem that far out of line until you tally up the total and question whether it is actually worth the investment, or if you're trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. I have NOTHING against the detail suppliers. They have my respect and need to do what they need to do to survive. And yes, I DO understand amortization of costs, including design and capital investment. LOTS of suppliers in the model engineering hobby (which has a LOT lower volume potential than LS trains, trust me) where I got all the stuff for MY business, were companies that did something else, usually in industry or contract production, for a living to help offset the costs of the hobby sideline. Dumb me, I TRIED doing ME supply full time, only to find it often didn't meet expenses, even with selling as much flea market junk on the side as I could haul to try to help cover the set up fees and gas. That's why I'm NOT in business anymore. I understand how things work all too well. My 'everything for nothing' comment was as tongue in cheek as it gets.

However, unlike HO, or even O, large scale locomotives are big enough that it is OBVIOUS that SOMETHING (or a LOT of somethings) is missing from most of the base steam locomotives, The Aristo 0-4-0 has almost nothing on the backhead, and most of what IS there makes no sense to anybody who has seen a real A4. Their c-16, Bachmann's Big Hauler, almost any Hartland, even LGB, same thing. Many of you will say that there are 2 groups-- the scale purists who wouldn't buy those things anyway, and the Christmas set crowd who couldn't care less, but there is a 3rd group, those who like things to look reasonably plausible but can't begin to justify a $2000 toy.... and I think that MOST of the LS hobbyists, especially those who hang out here, actually fit into this category. Champagne tastes and beer budgets? Maybe. 

Saying "shell out, make it, or do without" is FINE, if you really don't care whether the hobby (and by extension the suppliers TO the hobby) actually grows or not. But I can't wonder if, at least on SOME items there would be a price break point where a supplier would actually make up the difference, and perhaps a bit more, in volume? Is the idea of a small discount (10%?) for people buying a detail "package" of 20 or 30 preselected items (there were 44 or so castings in the above list I made) to dress up a loco, versus those that want just a few specific odds n ends, really THAT unreasonable? 

Shipping... So why is Ozark's base shipping fee $6? They charge that $6 on a $10 order or a $50 order. As was pointed out, putting a couple items in a first class padded mailer costs maybe $1.50-$2 including the mailer. Don't want to piddle with small orders because you think they waste your time? Then why not simply have a $20 minimum instead? Even free shipping on orders over $xx ($50? $75? $100?) might encourage enough people on the fence to actually buy to offset the increased cost... Or would it? I honestly don't know. I actually posted this thread for the purpose of kicking around ideas to help improve the hobby, NOT to kick the people who are, or are willing in the future, to put themselves on the financial line to try to do it.

Or maybe that's the real reason why I'm out of business. (I thought it actually had more to do with the people who would take advantage of my personalized service to explain their options, then shop around (with my list of recommendations) for someone to undercut me-- happened about 1/3 of the time, spend 2 days answering questions, then silence, then you contact them a couple days later and they say, "Oh, I bought what you suggested off 'so and so'. He was $x less, but thanks...." call it a Wal-Mart mentality, the lower price is ALL that matters....but maybe I AM as dumb as I look?) 

Oh, and Jack? I HAVE run plastic injection molding machines (a temp gets to do all kinds of weird stuff), I've also helped do loose pattern green sand casting (in aluminum) by hand, built up replacements for unavailable castings from weldments in both aluminum and steel, and helped on an extruder and draw bench (copper) ... the molding machine was a nice (and clean) change.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Jerry,

I don't know anything about Hartford, other than it seems to be mentioned with reverence.

Stocking up now is probably a good idea, because I can see inflation big time coming down the pike. Hang onto your hat.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gary,

I had in mind these high-end electric-powered engines. Live steam is a whole 'nuther world!









Les


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I just purchased a kit from David Gormley of Rio Grande Models UK to do a retro-fit of an AMS coach to #212 D&RGW combine. Laser-cut wood sides and all the accessories. The shipping from England to Burbank, CA was less than eight bucks. Go figure why some of these people charge such high shipping rates!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 03/07/2009 6:03 PM
[edited]
However, unlike HO, or even O, large scale locomotives are big enough that it is OBVIOUS that SOMETHING (or a LOT of somethings) is missing from most of the base steam locomotives, The Aristo 0-4-0 has almost nothing on the backhead, and most of what IS there makes no sense to anybody who has seen a real A4. Their c-16, Bachmann's Big Hauler, almost any Hartland, even LGB, same thing. Many of you will say that there are 2 groups-- the scale purists who wouldn't buy those things anyway, and the Christmas set crowd who couldn't care less, but there is a 3rd group, those who like things to look reasonably plausible but can't begin to justify a $2000 toy.... and I think that MOST of the LS hobbyists, especially those who hang out here, actually fit into this category. Champagne tastes and beer budget? Maybe. 


////I dunno, Mik. I suspect a sizeable fraction of the guys here have the money to buy what they want. I also think a sizeable fraction don't. 

Saying "shell out, make it, or do without" is FINE, if you really don't care whether the hobby (and by extension the suppliers TO the hobby) actually grows or not.


/// Okay, maybe I could've phrased that better, I'd have to go back and look. What I was referring to specifically, was _myself, _if memory serves_._ I think it'd be kinda cold to say that concerning others. And no, I do not care at all if the hobby grows. I hope it does, and in one or two cases (Timber Times, for example) I will subscribe to just to 'help'. I offered to buy a trial copy of this guy's O Gauge mag after he got a tad irritated with me, because he happened to mention the mag carried O Scale articles as well. And I wanted to cool that thread down. Or at least my part in it. He didn't have the courtesy to reply. 'Nuther good example of what I was saying about editors.


But I can't wonder if, at least on SOME items there would be a price break point where a supplier would actually make up the difference, and perhaps a bit more, in volume? Is the idea of a small discount(10%?) for people buying a detail "package" of 20 or 30 preselected items (there were 43 pieces in the above list I made) to dress up a loco, versus those that want just a few specific odds n ends, really THAT unreasonable an idea? 

/// Now here, I completely agree with you: I think price incentives for 'kits' for a given project, in a single order set at a certain total, might be a very good thing for both buyer and seller. Why that isn't done, I haven't a clue.

Shipping... So why is Ozark's base shipping fee $6?

/// Now, my take was, that it was $28 MINIMUM for any order, be it $3 or $30 (and below a certain weight limit). Where'd you come up with the $28/order? Or did I completely miss the point? It happens, to my experience, that many orders nowadays carry a $26/28 s/h for any order. I see it a whole lot on eBay. A base shipping fee of $6 is dirt cheap. While a mailer might cost ~$2, the pre-pack sorting, checking invoice against content, resetting inventory, marking invoices as shipped, plus date, USPO fees, and the shipping tape add up, to say nothing of the time. I thought, as I said above, the base fee was $28. If a seller has Stamps dot com, he can print his own shipping labels and provide insurance in one sitting, but then he must attach these to the mailer, and perhaps he has 15 or 20 mailers waiting, and you'd be amazed how easy it is to get the wrong label on one. Then you have a berserk customer, if you're unlucky. Usually, people a are pretty nice, though you do have to pay the mailing fee yourself, the second time. Lasty, he has to carry these to the shipping dock, mailbox or in worst case, the UPS center. (More time, plus gasoline). At some point, the seller has to order more mailers, thus tying up capital that could be doing else for him. No, on a $6 minimum, it's easy enough to order a few more cheapie items and pad out the overall cost/item that way.

They charge that $6 on a $10 order or a $50 order. As was pointed out, putting a couple items in a first class padded mailer costs maybe $1.50-$2 including the mailer. Don't want to piddle with small orders because you think they waste your time? Then why not simply have a $20 minimum instead? Even free shipping on orders over $xx ($50? $75? $100?) might encourage enough people on the fence to actually buy to offset the increased cost... Or would it? 

/// I don' t know. I know 'free shipping on orders over X dollars' works very well on me. Minimum orders usually make me go look somewhere else. Market strategies aren't my long suit, and I doubt most small dealers are up on that topic, either. I think--my opinion--is that most small guys like the freedom of running their own businesses and will trade the headaches for a modest living and the opportunity to be their own boss.

[edited]

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Mik,

I had a thought after I posted a reply to you. (Sadly, very common with me.)

I have to wonder if it'd be economically doable for say HLW (the only manufacturer I'm aware of who is small enough to be flexible) to offer a 'baseline loco'. Name your own type, or perhaps a series in different types. Also, offer the identical engine with all the bells and whistles. (Pun intended).

Each baseline version: you could order either a full kit of detailing to add on, or a series of kits, which you could buy one at a time and attach. The idea would be to save a bit of money against buying the 'top dog' version right off the top, plus spreading out the cost of the purchase over time.

Thompson Center (pistol manufacturers) did that, and enjoyed huge success. The basic frame was identical, only the grips were changeable. So you got quality right at the start. To that you could add whole bunches of neat stuff. (The barrels are sold separately, in various calibers.) So for one basic frame you could expand into a first class shooting array complete with expensive wooden grips, scopes, etc, etc. Their warranty service was impeccable. Sometimes you had to pay, usually not.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/07/2009 7:16 PM

It happens, to my experience, that many orders nowadays carry a $26/28 s/h for any order. I see it a whole lot on eBay. A base shipping fee of $6 is dirt cheap. While a mailer might cost ~$2, the pre-pack sorting, checking invoice against content, resetting inventory, marking invoices as shipped, plus date, USPO fees, and the shipping tape add up, to say nothing of the time. I thought, as I said above, the base fee was $28. If a seller has Stamps dot com, he can print his own shipping labels and provide insurance in one sitting, but then he must attach these to the mailer, and perhaps he has 15 or 20 mailers waiting, and you'd be amazed how easy it is to get the wrong label on one. Then you have a berserk customer, if you're unlucky. Usually, people a are pretty nice, though you do have to pay the mailing fee yourself, the second time. Lasty, he has to carry these to the shipping dock, mailbox or in worst case, the UPS center. (More time, plus gasoline). At some point, the seller has to order more mailers, thus tying up capital that could be doing else for him. No, on a $6 minimum, it's easy enough to order a few more cheapie items and pad out the overall cost/item that way.

[edited]

Les



Um, I got screwed ONCE on a ridiculously high shipping fee on evilbay. Now if they don't state the cost up front, respond with a FIRM quote, or ask what I think is a reasonable amount I won't bid, no matter how bad I want it. 

"dirt cheap" is relative, what if I only HAVE $25 that SWMBO allows me to blow on train junk this week?. Besides with a mail order shop, or any business that does a large volume of business that way, the mailing preparation expenses are pretty much known, and are (or should be) already be built into the advertised product price. Personally, I think advertising an artificially low price, then trying to make it up by purposely overcharging on shipping is rather dishonest. For a while I TRIED charging a 50c (Yes, a whopping half buck) handling fee on mail orders -- intended simply to help cover extra costs of double boxing, strapping tape and bubble wrap for fragile stuff, and you know what? People were VERY rude about it. Also, if I had estimated a guy's shipping at $14 and the label said it cost me $12.50 (on a $100 casting set), they were often mad enough to call and complain that I 'gouged' them, even if I'd already given them a $10 discount on the kit!.


Now, in most places the PO will come pick the stuff up at your door if you're using Priority...for FREE, (they'll even give you boxes and tape) and you can print the postage on your pooter and pay by cc... no gas, no standing in line, only thing you're really "out" is the phone call to arrange pick-up. If you do a decent volume I'm pretty sure UPS and FedEx will do much the same, at least once or twice a week anyway.

_Edit, Please note; I am not intentionally singling out Ozark for criticism, Their products and service are first rate, almost enough to overlook the shipping policy... almost... I will pay it, but not gladly. There are other shops who are MUCH worse in this regard, for instance I will NEVER order from St Aubin's again-- for the very same reason._


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 03/07/2009 6:03 PM

However, unlike HO, or even O, large scale locomotives are big enough that it is OBVIOUS that SOMETHING (or a LOT of somethings) is missing from most of the base steam locomotives....

Shipping... So why is Ozark's base shipping fee $6? They charge that $6 on a $10 order or a $50 order. As was pointed out, putting a couple items in a first class padded mailer costs maybe $1.50-$2 including the mailer. 

Oh, and Jack? I HAVE run plastic injection molding machines (a temp gets to do all kinds of weird stuff), I've also helped do loose pattern green sand casting (in aluminum) by hand, built up replacements for unavailable castings from weldments in both aluminum and steel, and helped on an extruder and draw bench (copper) ... the molding machine was a nice (and clean) change.





Some interesting points for sure there Mik. Yes, the bigger the scale, the more obvious the omissions.

Shipping, your point on cost is VERY valid, but there has to be a difference between a business Vs. some eBay seller packaging at their kitchen table. I just bought an industrial part that was $0.80 and paid their base shipping of $8, again a fact of life. They have to pay someone to pack the part, process payment, print the invoice, etc. Figure they make $10 an hour with a 3x multplier as the industry average.... So Ozark have to cover their costs too. 

EDIT: Ah, I missed your comments about your business, sorry to hear about the flack you got, the general public is not always human I am afraid.....

I remember back the Chicago Museum of Sicence (or whatever its actual name is) was selling off its O scale layout stuff on eBay. Many complained that the shipping was $50+ for even a simple car or loco. Museums are skilled shippers with paid staff to do this (or contractors), and they even explained in their listings and the steps involved. They are not going to put something in less than enough styrofoam popcorn in a store sized Tampax box that has been shipped across the US several times already. (This can be fun, I had one box that went back and forth between the US and Holland at least three times.)

Green sand eh? Love foundry work, wish there was more of it in the US. One of the more interesting things to me.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mik....and for the St Aubins comment, the few items I bought from them were drop shipped (IE, the Mfg/Distributor sent it, not St. Aubins), anyone else experince this?


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 03/07/2009 8:52 PM
Green sand eh? Love foundry work, wish there was more of it in the US. One of the more interesting things to me. 




Not sure where you are, but if you're ever in Southeastern Pa there's a place called "Cattail Foundry" located a bit East of Lancaster. It's run by Amishmen, so they do most stuff the REAL old-fashioned way. They do a lot of grey iron stuff (replacement firegrates, smokebox and firebox doors, gear blanks, brackets, etc) for the Amish community and the 'english' in the antique farm machinery hobby.

As for' irrational' customer demands, I once had a lady peek over my shoulder while I was looking up a wholesale price on a piece she wanted me to special order for her (So I could give her a discount quote) ... She started insisting THAT was the price she wanted to pay, and didn't stop harping on it until kind of lost it, and said "Fine!...You can HAVE that price -- just as soon as you get a tax number, a business bank account, apply to be a dealer for them, and figure out what ELSE you want as part of your $500 minimum order." She stomped off in a huff. Then again, I also made another guy rather mad after he pointed to a $300 engine and snidely said "I know where to get THOSE for $100!" I simply picked up my checkbook and cheerfully as I could replied, "Wonderful! I'll take three!" Haven't seen either of them since. An old saw goes something to the effect that "Show me a man who hates people, and I'll bet you he works in retail"...now I don't HATE anybody, but my Irish temper has been known to get away from me when dealing with arrogant people and/or nincompoops.

St Aubin's? Their first (and last as far as I'm concerned) was to put and charge me for TWO shipping amounts on a Ruby I ordered. I called to see if it was a mistake and got informed rather rudely that the first amount was the shipping from Accucraft to THEM, the second was for from them to me. And a "It's stated in the advertisement"... I looked, and there WAS a sort of nonsensical sounding thing about Accucraft locoS being "subject to factory shipping", in real small print, under a different product. And yes, mine was drop shipped from Accucraft, so it only WAS shipped once, not twice. I took that as adding insult to injury. Any time I drop shipped stuff (how many $1K models, that you might sell maybe one of every three years, can a small dealer realistically keep in stock?) I made it clear to the customer that it was going to be done that way, and it was OK with them. 

You know, I just realized how lousy of a businessman I really was. Treating people how I wanted people to treat me (at least until they worked at making me mad) is no way to actually MAKE money, is it? If it was wouldn't more companies at least go through the motions?


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