# Polish WWII Armoured Train



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

For a long time I've not been able to use my attic workspace, that and other factors put my G-scale scratch building projects on hold.

For a totally unrelated project earlier this year I improvised a workspace on my computer desk, and now the urge came over me to build something special. The other project had also reminded me that just a few hours of work most evenings can lead to quite a big result.


I deal in second hand books to support the foundation I volunteer for, and as such one comes across some great stuff. One was a set of plans for paper models of a WWII Polish armoured train in scale 1/25, the PP-52 "Pilsudczyk".



Before I knew it, I had fished out a never used 3-axle LGB engine block I once bought at a flee market, and I started measuring.

The thick paper sheets are in A3 size, so to big for me to scan and print, so I had the local copy shop copy them for me. That gave me all the templates I needed to build the train out of styrene.


Now, after a little over a week of building, the engine is taking shape. I'll have to take some liberties with the connection between engine and tender, the paper model has them (quite correctly) very snug together, but with my R1 curves that will have to change. I don't feel that will change the overall character of the project too much.


Anyhow, here is an overview of my first week or so work on my blog/forum/thingy: http://anne.messageboard.nl/29197/viewtopic.php?t=208

Feel free to visit again once in a while to check out the progress, if any.

I am by far nor an experienced builder as some here, so your comments, tips etc. are more than welcome - as are your questions!


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Gungnir, that's quite an ambitious project. A wonderful start with excellent detail.... Thanks for the link to your blog.

Welcome to MLS.


----------



## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

*WoW!!!* Nice work!









Craig


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Gungnir on 19 Jul 2009 02:49 AM 

http://anne.messageboard.nl/29197/viewtopic.php?t=208




Hmm, I have a couple Czechoslovakian projects in the work of similar nature. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Spule 4, there was a lot of similarity between the Polish, Soviet and Czeck armoured trains - not very surprising, since they all had the same technology at hand. 

There are some plans of a nice Soviet one, Red Truth, which looks like destroyer on tracks. Sadly it wasn't articulated, so nearly impossible to run on narrow radius track.


----------



## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

There are some armored trains featured in late WW1 through the Russian Civil War. Vanguard book features them in their book(lets) of Red and White Russian armoured vehicles of the Russian Civil War. An interesting vehicle is the ZAMYURETS (Please excuse spelling).
LAO


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Another source is the Podzun-Pallas Verlag book in the series Waffen-Arsenal - Sonderband 013 - Panzerzuege im Einsatz auf deutscher Seite 1939-1945. 

It does concentrate on German trains, but captured equipment plays an important role.


----------



## Jeff Livingston (Jan 2, 2008)

Gungnir, 

That is going to be one impressive train! Well done.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gungnir,

I was very impressed with the whole idea. Your workmanship is excellent. Good luck with the project. Out-of-the-ordinary things like that interest me a lot.

Thanks for the pics.

Oh, and Welcome to the board!

Les


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Neat idea, making it out of plastic. I use that rivet method, but drill holes, glue in a longer piece, then cut them to length.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Jerry, that is one of the methods I considered, but I decided against it because of the extra time, mainly. Also, for the boiler armour, which I just started, I use half a millimeter thin styrene, I doubt your method would work on that, and I like the flexibility of that thickness for the curved boiler, and later probably also for the curved surfaces on the artillery wagons.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Holy Moly! 

I would have never thought to use xerox copies of a paper kit as transfers to sheet styrene!!! Looking good!


----------



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Gungnir,

Looking at the color view there seems to be a bunker not tender behind the raised control tower - the drum shape with windows all round it, just like warships had on the command tower (with the steering bridge beneath it). 

If however there is a tender, why not have a concave shape for the cab floor, with a convex shape for the front of the tender, the draw bar can be made the best length for your curves; fix the location of the front, then have the cab and tender units on the sharpest curve to work out the length of the draw bar. Agreed a bunker would possibly make the unit too long, and thus produce a very long 'swing' at the back of it. 
It is possible to bend 1mm styrene - curve it by holding it against the underside edge of a table, exert pressure on it, then and at the same time pull it towards you. It will assume a curve, but due to the thickness will take a few repeat runs to produce the curve you require. Use plenty of formers underneath it and add some stringers as well. Think of a model airplane fuselage for ideas

Also see if you can find some 'soda' pop' cans: they are 4 thou thick aluminium (over here in the UK) some are steel - they spark when you start to cut off the ends wth a slitting saw in a dremel (use eye protection, and take care with thwe fast spinnung saw in a Dremel!) - stop and discard the steel ones, aluminium is much better - it is used here for Fosters Lager - I don't drink the stuff, the local teenagers do, and like all teenagers dump the cans everywhere! Anneal it in a gas flame to make it softer - I can then crimp it for corrugated iron. It can be straighten/bent to your curves with the same method as above for 1mm styrene


Alas it is inevitable that the gap between the vehicles is virtually always much more than the prototype, but they do not have our curves!

Nice work so far thanks for the photos, it is coming on well, I am sure that you will have lots of 'techniques' learnt from it.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for the tips, Peter. 

It actually is a tender with a small observation post up front, with radio aerial wires running from it along the sides of the coal bin of the tender. I doubt it was the command position, to isolated from the artillery for that, but probably a general observation/fire control post. 

The coal bin is steel plate with a wood lining, I'll use balsa for that, still got some somewhere.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Peter,

While I know that 'flak trains' were used in WW2, or at least flat cars mounting same were interspersed on freights, I don't think they were very successful. So, is the train under discussion a WW1 vintage? Now, I'm not speaking of Rail Guns, which were purpose-built and relatively stationary, and used for bombardment.

The idea of an 'armored train' has always struck me as basically futile against any enemy with equal technology due to infrastructure required, size of target represented, etc. Do you have an info, like a website, that discusses the concept, or would you care to comment from your own knowledge?

Notwithstanding, the one under discussion is indeed a fascinating project.


----------



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Les, 

It is not a ww1 train, though the idea was also used then; the ww2 trains, which this is came from the same source. Details can be seen on the following link http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/...train.html where it says the train was responsible for destroying 100 german tanks. 

The link is the one the Polish armored train 'smialy' 

The UK trains were really a fast method of getting the ordanance to a new location when needed. as you say the back pressure would need to be contained - the 'locked' the train down to the tracks, when in location, very much like a breakdown crane uses its 'rail clamps' . 

A good deal of them used what were basically obsolete guns, but they still packed a punch. The UK ones were used for coastal defence against the likes of motor torpedo boats , and other fast armed launches.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

The Polish armoured trains were not doing so badly in '39. Don't forget that the German army of that time was still very lightly armoured, and basically still a horse drawn army, with the exception of just a few divisions. 

One of the armoured trains held back the Germans for a full day. They moved from one position to another so the artillery couldn't knock them out, and thanks to a forward observer in the field the artillery wagons were very effective. 

In the end, the Germans brought forward a few anti-tank guns, with which they knocked out the engine, killing the crew. As sitting ducks, the artillery crew they didn't stand a chance, so they blew up the remainder of the train.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Peter & Gungnir:

I've read extensively of operations in WW2, but nothing was ever said about 'armored trains'. My thinking was that air power left them sitting ducks. I've never read a word on UK armored trains. Interesting.

Yes, Gungnir, the great Panzer divisions early in the war were very lightly armored, compared to later. And much of the army was horse drawn. Later, they became better--partly due to the losses sustained in the Polish invasion. It seems that the exciting, new things, like airplanes and tanks, caught the German's attention, rather than mundane things like trucks.

Thanks for the site. It'd be neat to have one of those, but I'm afraid it'd look out of place on a ca 1875 midwestern US shortline.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Les, 

Armoured trains saw extensive use on the Eastern Front, after the Polish campaign mainly on anti-partisan duty. German armoured trains often werea mix of their own and captured equipment. 

During the invasion of my home country, the Netherlands, in May '40, a German armoured train was used to bust through the Peel Line. It derailed and was damaged on the way back. 

I listed a link to Polish armoured trains on my site, but here's another one on Soviet ones: 

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/Arm_trains.htm


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gungnir:

Thanks for the link.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 20 Jul 2009 08:40 AM 
Holy Moly! 

I would have never thought to use xerox copies of a paper kit as transfers to sheet styrene!!! Looking good! 

I tried that at work with an industrial Xerox, ca 1965. The office ones for copying documents. Those _did_ induce errors in line dwgs. Quite large ones for pattern-making. I'm sure they've got better technology, now.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Gungnir on 20 Jul 2009 09:33 AM 
Thanks for the tips, Peter. 

It actually is a tender with a small observation post up front, with radio aerial wires running from it along the sides of the coal bin of the tender. I doubt it was the command position, to isolated from the artillery for that, but probably a general observation/fire control post. 

The coal bin is steel plate with a wood lining, I'll use balsa for that, still got some somewhere. 
To correct myself: the turreted position in front of the coal bin of the tender is indeed the command post. It was manned by the commander and two assistants. There was a short-wave radio to keep in contact with the armoured draisines which accompanied the train. There were various communication systems with the artillery wagons.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

The engine is finished now, so on with the tender. 

I will not paint the models till after the September model railroad fair, this way it's clearer how things were constructed.


----------



## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

Your armoured train is coming along beautifully. If radius curves give a problem, you can remove the flange from the middle driving wheels. This is common practice on models and even on fullsize trains.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks. I've only recently picked up this project again. I've had some problems with my worn knees that wouldn't allow me to sit at my desk long enough to do anything big. 

I also had to decide to stop going to fairs to demonstrate modelling techniques, It was getting too exhausting. 

The first artillery car is as good as finished. Tonight I plan to add the last bits: the buffers and a few last minute reinforment strips for the side sponsons. 

http://anne.messageboard.nl/29197/viewtopic.php?t=224 

Then it's on to the infantry car, which is of a lot simpler construction than this Art Deco inspired contraption.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

The first artillery car build is finished. The second one, later on, will be simpler, I learned a lot from this one.


----------



## Mr Ron (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm amazed at what can be done with styrene. I've never used it. I use mostly metal and wood and clear plastic for items like windows.


----------



## Gungnir (Dec 27, 2007)

I use several kinds of materials, but styrene is ideal for this kind of construction.


----------

