# Southern Pacific GP9's



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

There is another post on LGB S.P. black widow F7's that has drifted off topic at times to other S.P. locos so I thought I would start another one. The following photos are of my three USA geeps that have been detailed for S.P. The two scarlet gray units are GP9E's as they looked after an early 1970's rebuild. Number 3611 is a unigue loco in that it was the last S.P. GP9 to wear black widow paint all the way to late 1976 even though S.P. adopted the scarlet gray in the late 50's. It also has a square mars warning light instead of the usual round gyra light. Another unique feature is that it has a plow. I still have not seen another black widow GP with a plow. Anyway here are a bunch of photos fresh from the camera.


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## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice locos. Could you tell me about the air hoses. Are they from scratch or are they a detail part ?


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

EXCELLENT pics Paul!!! I think I need to send my USA GP's to you for proper light package to be installed. What are you using to drive your dual beam gyralite, DCC decoder or stand alone circuit like from Richmond controls? I am going to have to go with Richmond Controls are I dont plan to run digital control. A Black Widow GP9 is very high on my list, although the local G scale shop has a used USA GP30 in scarlett/grey and a BW pumpkin (orange lettering) RS3 from Aristo that is tempting me. I know SP didnt have any RS3's, so it would have to be a RSD5 stand in since we will never see that in large scale. Mike


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 
They are a bash. The ends are from the old Lionel G scale line. I ordered a whole bunch of them several years ago. I don't know if they are still available or not. Anyway, The hose is just 22 gauge wire. I drill a small hole into the fitting and strip just a little insulation off the wire and glue in the hole. Both Aristo and USA have a lot of room for improvement in their hoses. Here are the old Lionel part numbers just in case. 8-18-5000-365 and 8-18-5000-355. The 365 is probably the one you want. Comes with four fittings, the other with three.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
I use TCS fl4's. They are a small aux DCC decoder with four programable light outputs. If you are interested in RS3's, here is another option for you. S.P. didn't have RS3's but S.P. subsiderary Cotton Belt did and in black widow! These units will be going with me to Martys and will be offered for sale.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Paul your railway looks fantastic, very realistic looking. 

Thanks for sharing 

Alan


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I wont be at Marty's, would love to be though. I will look forward to the videos that I am sure will hit youtube. What kind of $$ are you looking for on those. I see you do some weathering, are you willing to lightly weather my LGB F units? None of the local weathering guys wanna mess with large scale. I know this as my buddy wants his Uintah 2-6-6-2T redecaled to his lumber line and weathered up good. Does Massoth offer a decoder that will play nice with the onboard LGB sound and offer a mars function? Just curioius. I plan to order up a stand alone Mars circuit from Richmond Controls for my F unit shortly. I am assuming SP had Mars and not gyralites in the F units as built. I have not found a year but I see some F units with single beam mars and dual sealed beam lower lights, and some with sinlge beam in both positions. I thought about putting the dual beam back in the lower spot, but rotating it 90' so the bulbs are verticaly orientated instead of horizontal like LGB did it. For now I have it set up for as delivered(I think). Blat horns, single beam Mars, single beam "golden glow" style main headlight. Those RS's look awsome. Mike


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I believe that Ozark Miniatures got Eric's detail parts and still is offering them on their website. I see the dual beam Mars/gyra light, the single beam roundish gyralite, just have to scratchbuild the steel plate bracket to mount them to. Mike


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,
I can't help you with the massoth or LGB. I have no experience with them. As for weathering I have been getting lazy about it. I now mostly just use Bragdon Industries powders. The black widow GP9 was done with them and probably several of the cars in the photos. Real easy to use and permanent. I just use brushes and cotton swabs to apply it. You can do it without fear. Use a towel under it when applying,it will not come off if it gets into carpet or anything like that. Try some on a car,you will like it. The RS3's are listed in the classifieds.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

An aahhhmaazing and inspiring collage of art, science and engineering. 


Cheers,
Victor


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul are you using 1/24 scale figures and automobiles? Or 1/32.
The scenes are just great.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Absolutely phenomenal images and detail, Paul............


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod,
Getting figures and vehicles that look right in 1/29 is not easy as everyone knows. Same for buildings. I use what looks good to me,so vehicles range from 1/24 to as small as a couple 1/34. There are quite a few 1/30 from first gear. I will use 1/24 if they don't really look too big. I think even some are stamped 1/28. Placement is the key. I try not to put say a 1/24 next to a 1/32. As for figures that is even tougher. There are just not that many that work well with 1/29. And again,if it looks ok I use it. My big pet peeve are those terrible looking engineers that USA and Aristo use. They usually get a dremel operation to change their looks. I do get away with having some small detail items because the whole layout is raised and designed so that all turnouts are reachable from the edge of the layout with a few exceptions that are air operated. There is no need to walk on the layout except for maintenance. The basic design concept is based on what people do with scenes on indoor layouts. Your eyes focus on a certain area and you don't really see the rest of the layout from that spot.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

One more follow up on the Geeps. They are all equipped with plug in battery,Airwire,Phoenix P8,led lighting and a TCS FL4 for the gyra lights. The two scarlet gray units have been through many internal changes since I first acquired then more than ten years ago. Locolinc,soundlinc and gel cell battery,then Airwire and Sierra dsx but still with gel cel battery. Then the battery compartments were redone for NIMH,and a conversion to led lighting.and finally just a few weeks ago to Phoenix P8 to match the new black widow unit. They have been through it all. The long hood shells lift off for access. Here is a picture with a shell off. The battery is a 14.4 NIMH that I put together myself. When I need new batteries they will be 14.8 LION on the same type battery plug so there will not need to be any changes to my loco fleet to use them. Most all my batteries are interchangeable in any loco. Just grab what is charged,plug it in and go.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Great pics on your railroad Paul. I know we exchanged photos when we were re-building our Geeps and RS units, but seeing them on your layout really brings out the realism and carfting that you did.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Paul Burch on 08 Sep 2012 07:50 AM 
The long hood shells lift off for access. Here is a picture with a shell off. 














Very nice workmanship.

Do you fasten the long hood down and if so how? (It would be nice to be able to open my U-boat for battery access, but still be able to lift the engine by the hood.)


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd,
No they don't fasten. When lifting I just do it from under the fuel tanks. On my newer more modern (bigger) locos I just have access through the liftout dynamic brake castings. There is enough room to get the battery in and out plus the controls are there too. These would include Dash 9's ,SD70's. PA1's, GP40's, a kitbashed SD40,and a kitbahed GP38-2(GP40 with a USA Gp38-2 long hood).


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul,

Your Geep’s look great on your layout; you really captured the SP look of things on your railroad. Very nice actions shots too!

How big is your layout?

Michael


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work Paul. What are you using for the building bases?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
It's L shaped 100' down one side and 75' on the other 25-30' wide. Here is a partial view along the 100' side looking south towards Marysville.This picture is a couple years old, there have been several new buildings and details added since then,mainly the big station that you see in some of the other photos. That is Mike Gorsich in the foreground running his custom N.P. mallet and Joe Freer in the background doing some switching on the industrial tracks at the south end of Marysville. Marysville has nice waist high switching with both facing and trailing sidings that can keep it challenging at times.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 
I set my buildings on Hardy board cement tile backer. Cut it with a angle grinder with a thin masonary disk. The stuff lasts for years ,even here with the wet winters,but that is subject for another post.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Paul, fantastic pics (as always)! How the dickens are you keeping your ballast in place??? 

On the HardiBacker, have you had any trouble with it delaminating? I used the same stuff as a base for my buildings, and every piece has separated into three distinct layers, like plywood that was never glued. I keep my stuff out year round through our winters, so it's probably our harder-than-the-pacific-northwest freeze/thaw cycle that's doing my stuff in.

Later, 

K


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin,
Lets make sure we are talking the same product. This is the one I use the most,1/4" or 1/2". Home Depot 3x5 sheets.
http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowne...cker.shtml


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you go into the home depot type of store, you can buy various grades and various brands. 

The cheap junk does what happened to you Kevin. There is stuff that is completely waterproof... I have a switchyard of the stuff, completely untreated, bare, never a problem... at the Home Depot, the display had a piece of it in a clear tank of water. 










Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yep, Paul, same stuff. 3' x 5' sheet, 1/4" thick is what I use. Here's a picture of what's left of the base of the Shade Gap station, after being outside for 5 years (it deteriorates to this point in around 3, I just haven't had occasion to remove the station until this summer.) 










You can see the squares still on what's left of the top layer, a distinct middle layer, and the bottom layer. (The majority of the top layer stuck with the walls of the depot when I lifted it up.) None of these layers have much of any strength left at this point, breaking with minimal effort. 

I saw the same display with the board in the water, which is why I researched it and ultimately chose the stuff for this purpose. I figured if it could stay in constant contact with moisture, then it'd be perfect for building bases. My guess is that since neither of you guys appear to be having issues, it's got to be a freeze/thaw cycle thing since I'm in a decidedly colder climate than either of you. I bought multiple sheets at different times at different stores for various projects, so it's not just a "bad batch" issue. 

There's a different tile backer board I used for the walls of my buildings, called Fiberock. It's a US Gypsum product. It had the distinct advantage of being able to be cut with a regular saw, which is why I chose it over the HardiBacker for the walls of the buildings. It, too, hasn't held up to the elements (despite my two-winter "trial" with a skeleton station sitting outdoors which gave the impression that it would survive. Evidently, 3 - 4 years is about its life span in that environment.) It doesn't delaminate like the HardieBacker, it just loses its strength and disintegrates if handled. 

So I'm back to using GatorPlast or 1/2" blue foam, as they seem to hold up the best to the elements out here.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So I wondering here... 

If Greg lives in a no freeze zone, but has some winter rains.. 
and Paul lives in a wet N.W. region with some freezing temps.. 
Kevin lives in a wet and frozen climate, 

I live in a mostly dry winter zone but still,.. it freezes here, so only a little moisture to freeze even when it does get real cold, usually snow when it's real cold. Cold = 10-15 degrees, absolute lows of 0'.. 

I'm using the house siding product line from James Hardy. It is 8in. wide and about 5/16'' thick, made of 3 lamination layers like mentioned above also. I have had some laying on the ground for several years - waiting to be used of course - with no ill effects from dirt and rain. I have had a few pieces break which revealed the layers inside... 

So probably the continued moisture and deep freezing has caused the product to fail - for our uses...and in an ever increasing rate once it gets a foot hold on cracking started. 

My question then is, you guys have not primed your pieces before use that I can tell. The house siding I use does come with a yellow prime coat on the face surface and all edges. 

I'm wondering should we be using some James Hardy primer on our projects for a more lasting result? Coat all surfaces, even the back sides... 

...!!... Paul - really like your use of timber posts and retaining wall structure to build a nice looking layout edge!! Is it completely back filled with earth for the layout area? And the back side pre-covered for moisture protection .... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk, 
Treated wood,posts 2' in the ground with about 1 bag of concrete per hole. The wall on the other side is stackable blocks, 2000 of them. I used the wood in this location because it is straight vertical giving better reach when switching. There is a section on the back side where there are no walls for better scenery. As for the hardie tile backer I see no evidence of laminations on the stuff I have been using. I don't think the siding will hold up well with ground contact. I do spray my backer board with Thompsons Water seal before putting it down. We should move the backer board discussion to another post.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Paul, I have started a thread over under track work for us!

Seems that so far Kevin has some of the most extreme climate conditions to build in. 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg lives in San Diego, 5280 feet from the Pacific Ocean, definitely no freeze.. I get this stuff wet, in fact I use the hose to wash it off. 

It's hard to believe that freeze thaw affects it and is the same stuff I have, because if it can sit in water, then it's not absorbing water. 

The stuff I have does not come in 1/4" and the underwater display is 1/2" stuff like what I bought. 

Kevin, I know what you have is not exactly what I have because it's 1/4" for starters, but my stuff has fiberglas embedded into it on both sides as I remember, and I think that would be impossible in 1/4"... 

I really think you don't have the same "model" of hardibacker... I'll try to get the exact brand and "model", but if I lived where you are, 1/4" material would not seem much of a base... it does not seem to be much of a base here in a much milder clime. 

Sorry for the derail... I'll keep to the subject from now on... (whatever it is ha ha







) 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK - Greg - read the thread above yours now Buddy!! 

Can you install a link, I tried - no luck....:~{ 

THX's 

Dirk


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The new thread can be found *here.* 

Greg, I wouldn't doubt there's some structural difference between the 1/2" you're using and the 1/4" stuff I used. The 1/4" stuff isn't supposed to absorb water either, but something's clearly going on there. Suffice to say _I'm_ no longer using it. There is 1/4" cement backer board with a fiberglass mesh imbedded in it, but that's a different product. But according to the guys at the store, you need a tile saw to cut that stuff, which I ain't got, so I opted for the other material. 

Anyway, let's get this thread back on track--and speaking of track, Paul, how do you keep that ballast in place??? 

Later, 

K


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

The pics of the layout are inspiring. Looks much more real than I'm used to seeing. Very nice work, Joe


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, 
The ballast for the most part is loose. I do have to touch it up a couple times a year. Usually late winter like the end of February in places where it has washed. My track is glued to concrete roadbed. Where the ballast tends to wash off and leave concrete exposed my fix now is to squirt some concrete adhesive on to the concrete and then put some ballast on it. That works fine on concrete but cannot be done where ballast is over dirt due to freeze thaw,just makes an eventual mess. When I just need to tidy up the ballast where it has drifted some I use a modified broom. Regular broom that has had the bristles shortened some to make it smaller and a little stiffer. I use that to bring the ballast back up to the track and then kind of sweep it smooth again. Sounds silly,but it works and no bend over work. The ballast itself is a mixture of something they call bridge topping,#1 chicken grit and another really fine product called gray blast. I think the gray blast is just the really fine stuff left over from the crushers. I have some #2 grit but it is too big to look good. It all comes in 50lb. bags.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, you say 3611 has a square mars light, but I'll be darned if I see which one is it in the picture below:










Isn't a mars light usually in a larger housing with a bigger clear "lens" to handle the movement of the light?

My real interest is what circuitry did you use to simulate the mars ligh?

Greg

p.s. as always, your layout looks great!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
I'm referring to the red warning lights. S.P. usually used the gyra version which was kind of round oval shaped. The mars housing was square. The story is that EMD was out of the gyra lights when these units were built and substituted the mars light. The ones I did on the GP9's I made myself but later on Ozark offered a casting for them. Here are a couple photos. First is a SD45 and GP40 with the Ozark casting on the low nose. Second is my new GP9 with a scratch version of the mars.
The red warning lights are dummies,not worth powering. The gyra lights are powered with TCS fl4's but all new Airwire decoders have programable light outputs so starting with my upcoming F3's the FL4's won't be necessary anymore.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul,

I swear the closer you get to these beauties, the more realistic they get!







Awesome work, old friend!


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Paul Burch on 10 Sep 2012 08:45 AM 

The ballast itself is a mixture of something they call bridge topping,#1 chicken grit and another really fine product called gray blast. I think the gray blast is just the really fine stuff left over from the crushers. I have some #2 grit but it is too big to look good. It all comes in 50lb. bags.

Paul,
I swear the only reason Manufacturer Minerals has bridge topping is for the garden railroaders in the Puget Sound region...







It seems like everyone uses it. I've tried to figure out what the product is used for in the real world, but haven't had luck. We could start a business reselling the bridge topping to the rest of the garden railroaders in the country







Who doesn't want to get charged for a 50# of rocks to be shipped to you.







By the way the 100# bags are slightly cheaper.

Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig,
I tried the 100's once,only once. 50lbs for me. My guess is that it is mixed with something that they coat bridge roadway with so it won't be slippey in winter.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Paul Burch on 10 Sep 2012 01:07 PM 
Craig,
I tried the 100's once,only once. 50lbs for me. My guess is that it is mixed with something that they coat bridge roadway with so it won't be slippey in winter. 

My dad (Civil Engineer) thinks that it might be something to do with cement mixes for sidewalks.. But he had never heard of that rock size before either. The mystery continues...I think "Bridge Topping" is just the term MM uses, and it's not an industry wide name? I remember the first time I walked into MM and asked them about small rocks. Oh my I didn't realize how many different grades of that stuff they had.







But when I mention the words "model railroad" out came the bridge topping, and #1 size grit








The GP's look good too! What scale are your people? 1/32?

Craig


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