# CHALLENGER PASSENGER/FREIGHT COMBO



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
Kinda what I thought. I Just need more passenger cars i guess.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I would run what you what to. Its your train...


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Now John don't get to worked up on this one...LOL


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

go watch youtube and you will see 3985 pulling passenger cars and freight together. That video is the Ringling Brothers Circus train pulled by the Challenger. So yes, it did happen. 

and so it goes: there is a prototype for everything.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Art; 

Could also happen if the railroad were to do a "ferry move" to get the equipment to a train origination point. Since the ferry move is a non-revenue move, the operating department might be inclined to add some revenue cars that were headed to the same destination to that train - just so long as the locomotive had the capacity to handle the extra cars. 



I can't vouch for back in the steam era, but the Norfolk Southern did add revenue cars to their steam excursion trains during ferry moves. Sometimes certain passenger cars stayed in their home states, and those extra freight cars were useful for adding extra brake effort. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 

Art

You are "Mr. Controller" of the Challenger make it happen and enjoy that long train....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
John

Check the video posted on the Challenger at the 14:20 mark. The Greyhound (passenger paint scheme) is doing freight service.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I need to put wanted in classified. How do I do it.

I need Aristo passenger cars. No combine or observation.


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## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi Art 

I Think i have about 9 or 12 of those in the basement, that i never use. Pennysylvania. 
Send me a PM will Trade with freight cars 1/32. 
Regards 
David


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Found five of the heavyweights. Guess I might need any more when I get the two new tenders that will make a consist of about 18 cars or so and I can always add a pennsy or something.

Look out long passenger train. Have to keep her well lubed and watered.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, Enjoyed the Challenger video, thanks for posting. 

Is there a special reason that the helper Challenger did not just push on the rear of the caboose but was cut in between the last freight car and the caboose ? 

Thanks


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Is there a special reason that the helper Challenger did not just push on the rear of the caboose but was cut in between the last freight car and the caboose ?" 

Rod; 

With these powerful steamers, there was a genuine concern that they could crush a caboose, should too much power surge at startup. I have been told that this actually happened once when the ill-fated N&W steam turbine electric, Jawn Henry, was being tested as a pusher. The caboose was an older steel-framed but wood-bodied caboose. Luckily, the crew were out on the steps to observe the locomotive in operation, and escaped unharmed. Anyway, I believe that is the main reason for adding the caboose behind the pusher. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rod

Could be...Depending on the tonnage, the helper would be cut in ahead of the caboose. Ordinary cabooses were built as lightly as practical and might be crushed by the helper/pusher's force, which could be as much as 90 tons. The heavy cabooses allowed crews to avoid the time-consuming procedure of splitting the train just ahead of the caboose.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

Understood, thanks for the explanation....


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 22 May 2013 07:47 AM 
Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
John

Check the video posted on the Challenger at the 14:20 mark. The Greyhound (passenger paint scheme) is doing freight service. 


Charles, I assume Art was asking on a historical basis in which case my reply was accurate. UP has done all kinds of stuff with 3985 for publicity purposes. A Circus train is not a freight train. But, it's Art's engine so he can pull all the junk he wants behind it. My suggestion, which I have expressed to him personally, is after spending 12-15k on an engine, he should at least spend a few bucks on some decent Kadee couplers and wheels sets that are in gauge.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 23 May 2013 01:13 PM 







Posted By Charles on 22 May 2013 07:47 AM 
Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
John

Check the video posted on the Challenger at the 14:20 mark. The Greyhound (passenger paint scheme) is doing freight service. 


Charles, I assume Art was asking on a historical basis in which case my reply was accurate. UP has done all kinds of stuff with 3985 for publicity purposes. A Circus train is not a freight train. But, it's Art's engine so he can pull all the junk he wants behind it. My suggestion, which I have expressed to him personally, is after spending 12-15k on an engine, he should at least spend a few bucks on some decent Kadee couplers and wheels sets that are in gauge.









All cars currently have new Kadee couplers on them Wheel sets seem to be doing okay on track that is aligned properly.LOL


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 23 May 2013 01:13 PM 







Posted By Charles on 22 May 2013 07:47 AM 
Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
John

Check the video posted on the Challenger at the 14:20 mark. The Greyhound (passenger paint scheme) is doing freight service. 


Charles, I assume Art was asking on a historical basis in which case my reply was accurate. UP has done all kinds of stuff with 3985 for publicity purposes. A Circus train is not a freight train. But, it's Art's engine so he can pull all the junk he wants behind it. My suggestion, which I have expressed to him personally, is after spending 12-15k on an engine, he should at least spend a few bucks on some decent Kadee couplers and wheels sets that are in gauge.








John I am not making assumptions about regular service history as per the video showing actual historic service of the Greyhound in service with freight. Thereby, your assumption of publicity and/or Challenger never pulling freight is off track! Please check the video mark of 14:20 in service film clip of Challenger (passenger version) pulling freight. I doubt they ran a combination of freight and passenger.

Finally, please reference the UP website:
The Challengers were designed for fast freight service, but occasionally pulled passenger trains. No. 3985 was built in 1943 for fast freight service and was retired in 1959.
The 10 two-tone gray Challengers operated mostly in passenger service, but there are photos of the locomotives in freight service. All photos of the locomotives in two-tone gray show them in service on the Northwestern District, at least until they were displaced in 1950 

http://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/steam/locomotives/3985.shtml
http://www.utahrails.net/up/ttg-challengers.php


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 23 May 2013 04:21 PM 
Posted By jfrank on 23 May 2013 01:13 PM 







Posted By Charles on 22 May 2013 07:47 AM 
Posted By jfrank on 21 May 2013 08:43 PM 
Posted By gibs035 on 21 May 2013 02:08 PM 
Okay

I am going to open up a can of worms. Does anyone know if UP ran a combo of passenger and freight cars at anytime. 


LOL, Art, not with a Challenger. UP ran a number of first class passenger trains during that time period. There is no way they would have put freight cars on them. Freight trains of the era were restricted to around 50mph. Passenger trains ran 80+. 
John

Check the video posted on the Challenger at the 14:20 mark. The Greyhound (passenger paint scheme) is doing freight service. 


Charles, I assume Art was asking on a historical basis in which case my reply was accurate. UP has done all kinds of stuff with 3985 for publicity purposes. A Circus train is not a freight train. But, it's Art's engine so he can pull all the junk he wants behind it. My suggestion, which I have expressed to him personally, is after spending 12-15k on an engine, he should at least spend a few bucks on some decent Kadee couplers and wheels sets that are in gauge.








John I am not making assumptions about regular service history as per the video showing actual historic service of the Greyhound in service with freight. Thereby, your assumption of publicity and/or Challenger never pulling freight is off track! Please check the video mark of 14:20 in service film clip of Challenger (passenger version) pulling freight. I doubt they ran a combination of freight and passenger.

Finally, please reference the UP website:
The Challengers were designed for fast freight service, but occasionally pulled passenger trains. No. 3985 was built in 1943 for fast freight service and was retired in 1959.
The 10 two-tone gray Challengers operated mostly in passenger service, but there are photos of the locomotives in freight service. All photos of the locomotives in two-tone gray show them in service on the Northwestern District, at least until they were displaced in 1950 

http://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/steam/locomotives/3985.shtml
http://www.utahrails.net/up/ttg-challengers.php 
Charles, I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate getting the 'idiot' treatment particularly from you. I was a member of the UP Historical Society and I know full well how Challengers were used in regular service by the UP. I don't need a lecture on it. Thanks.


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