# Another excuse from Aristo



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well he's at it again. Sounds like another delay for there upcoming releases. Now he says that the new factory is in the process of installing new computers and changing folks around. So wonder how much of a delay this will cause for the PCC, 2-8-0 and RDC3. Never ends. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Actually, it all revolves around his getting into 027 three-rail. 
You didn't know? 

http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=1728 

Now that he's got other things to occupy hisself, the LS new stuff gets set back again, right?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe, but it's not clear why acquiring the legal rights to a line of 3 rail would slow down production of G scale, unless he's directing the same factory to stop producing G and start making O. There's no real reason for him to _want_ to delay G production if the costs--molds, tooling--have already been sunk. If there is--I can't see it.





It is annoying that Aristo delays things so long, but they are hardly alone. Where's that AML K-4, or the AML 0-4-0 dockside? I'm still waiting on part of my USAT caboose order. Where's that USAT B6 switcher. etc etc.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would he get into three rail 027? Makes NO sense.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Also there are some things I don't understand about the relations between O and G in manufacturing. USAT has released several models that seem to be based precisely on O scale models--the 0-6-0 dockside is _exactly_ like the lionel version, just blown up. The center cupola cboose--same thing. The USAT Ore car--a blown up O scale model. USAT seems to be transferring O models directly to G, and I would not have thought that would be particularly cost-effective. But now I think it probably must be. 

But RMT really makes toys--there's almost nothing in there product list that doesn't either look silly or duplicate somethign Aristo already makes, except maybe this:


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Um Guys...getting fired up again? Polk Hobbies has been making and/or distributing other things besides G-gauge trains for years. This is purely a business move and should in no way affect the G-gauge stuff at all. 

Chas 
Former Hobby shop employee that had to fix tons of Aritocraft RC cars and boats and work with the Aristocraft radio systems.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It looks like Kader is finally putting their people in the old Sanda Kan factories. I have no idea where the "new factory" comments on the Aristo forum come from, the new factory was "new" when they made the GP40, what's that, 2 years now? 

Oh, the other reason for delays is apparently his son's upcoming marriage, blamed for the delay in the Aristo Insider. That excuse for delays has been given for a year now... it must be a VERY difficult marriage! I hope they don't have kids, that could put Aristo production back years! 

ha ha, of course only kidding about the children... they will probably only affect the 3 rail stuff... 

Regards, Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, Greg I see you liked the Santa Fe busting out picture.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Interesting spin. 
You see a cause and effect (same time frame, really) and IMMEDIATELY go into Polk Defense Mode. 

You can sure spot the Polk Folk.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Randy, thanks! (Randy brought that image to my attention, Santa Fe loco overruning the tracks at LA Union Station, 1948)

Spin, yep, hundreds of rpm! 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

When the spin gets to thousands, it will begin pitching the hangers-on right off.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg: You forgot about the Chinese New year also.







Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 10 Mar 2010 11:56 AM 
Why would he get into three rail 027? Makes NO sense. 

Ask your local hobbyshop or model train dealer. Three rail is where the money is now according to those I have talked to.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Which is why......... 

Come on. 
Y'all can sort this out in your brain bucket.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Which is why......... 
....Lionel was sniffing around Marklin? Because things are so darn good in three rail they're looking for a tax writeoff? As for Aristo...you're gonna have to throw me a bone because my brain can't figure that one out.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

I agree with you. Aristo is going to make stuff that sells and makes them money. Unfortunately, I am starting to believe that large scale is not nearly as popular as it was just a few years ago. I am in the process of trying to figure out how to add more layout because the price of all track is about 2 times what I paid for it back in 2004. Sad to say, but I think I am going to tear up my entire railroad, salvage what stone and fill I can, and start all over with a two track loop. That'll be a lot smaller footprint, but in the end, it solves my problem: multiple train operation with the track I have on hand. I simply cannot ratioalize spending $1100 for 250 feet of track. 

Let's look at this another way. You can call it spin. Perhaps it is the reality. If the locomotives you spent lots of capital on to make sit in your warehouse for 3 or 4 years, would you rush right out and make more? On the other hand, Atlas, Gargraves, Lionel, MTH, etc..ad nauseum, all seem to come out with a lot of new product bi-annually. The local train shop run by modelers, dropped large scale a few years back and really seems to focus on O gauge. And can you blame them? Aristo and others are not 501C non profits. 

As for the excuse, it seems strange that the factory is turning over its workers yet again. But, really, does it matter? Product will show up when it shows up, right? Makes for good gossip. The other way to look at it is the sooner the aristo 2-8-0, RDC3 and PCC show up, the sooner they start recouping their capital lay out. Quite frankly, the 2-8-0 is exciting and to me, as it represents the first real new 1/29 locomotives in a at least 5 years. If it is delayed a few more months (we've been waiting for what? 2 years since it was announced, right?), what's the difference. No biggie. 

Mark

PS, maybe that will give the loctite time to cure.. You guys are always assuming the worst. Gotta find some positives out there.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Go to the train shows and what do you see. Lots and Lots of 027 trains. Big business. Of course you help out a former employee also. 
Mark the problem now is all the kool aid kids get upset and start whining where this stuff is. Pretty soon they lose interest and don't buy . You maybe happy but a bunch of other folks sure will not be. 

Later RJD


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I can hardly wait for Aristo to ripoff something from Mike's Trainhouse of lawyers the way they did with the Bohler switchmachines....let the games begin...


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I am totally guessing here, but the delays are probably to do with one simple problem....money.... or lack thereof. The Polk's have been clearly cutting back investment in hard times... more so than usual. 

The O scale thing is just another way to stuff sufficient product through a distribution channel to make it cost effective. 

- gws


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

George- 
What flavour Kool-Aid do you prefer?


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm.. I guess I see your point. Folks have been waiting for those products for a few years already. What's a few more months? That's the young man's response. I've got time, but not the cash. I had hoped these would be here by now, but that's life, right? Perhaps this was news to him and he passed it along before the mob showed up with torches and pitchforks. Given that we just saw artwork of the 2-8-0 in the last 2 weeks, I still expect those engines to hit the streets about 3-4 months. If they have new people on the assembly lines, know what? I'd rather they take some time to double check their work, again. Not sure if that will happen. Their track record isn't that great when they have new folks trying to assemble their trains. The PCC's test shells have been shown, so what do you think? 8 weeks? 12 weeks, tops?

Like I said, none of this matters, right? We do this for fun, don't we? If the 2-8-0 is as big a hit as I think it will be, perhaps we'll see a resurgance in large scale. Until it actually hits the streets, though, we're all just guessing.

And one last thought. If aristo can make a ton of cash selling O gauge track, doesn't that mean good things for us? After all, USA Trains is a subsidy of Charles Ro supply corp who's main income is O gauge train sales.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can appreciate money is tight. No problem. Have lived with a 20% salary cut for 3 years. 

The point of the thread was about not being straightforward with people. Late last year, the new PCC car, the RDC3 and the Consolidation were all announced to be available this year. 

In December Lewis stated the PCC would be here in January. 

Now in March, everything is delayed, because of changes in the factory. 

It's just a matter of credibility. If you say a loco will be in people's hands in January, and you are speaking in December, then the boat has to already have left China. It takes about 6 weeks to get over here and in someone's warehouse. 

Just credibility. Just say what you really know and commit to. 

Putting off a purchase because you have been promised something else, and then the promise slides another year is not right. 

USAT delivered a caboose from the same company, and they don't complain about Chinese New Year (which comes every year for centuries), or getting new computers in a factory, or someone getting married. 

Just be straight with us. Say you cannot fund 3 new locos this year. We understand. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 10 Mar 2010 03:04 PM 
Perhaps it is the reality. If the locomotives you spent lots of capital on to make sit in your warehouse for 3 or 4 years, 


I tend to agree with Mark.

In the end I never criticize someone for what they do or do not do with their money. I don't know (and it is none of my business) how much or how little Lewis has available to spend on new products any more than it was my right to know what was happening at LGB before, during and after their bankruptcy.

Aristo-Craft is a privately owned company that is in business to make money so it is logical that they will give us whatever they are able to produce just as fast as they can whenever they determine the market is prepared to buy those products at a reasonable (to them) profit.

The economy is tight and the first thing that drops in a recession is discretionary spending (such as hobbies from airplanes to toy trains).

It is logical that Lewis would wish to get as much of our money as possible - as fast as possible. Delays in getting Aristo products to us are delays in and lost income to Lewis. 

Lewis is also a salesman. If you want to make money it is important for new products to jump off the shelf as fast as possible to move from spending money to making money. As a salesman I can understand a company's excessively optimistic estimates of when new products will become available (they call that marketing). They want us drooling and bugging the distributors about those new products to build their pre-orders. 

If we are complaining because we cannot spend our money on new Aristo-Craft products fast enough then I think their psychology is working.









I have some old Ariso and LGB catalogs showing products that took well over 5 years to be released (some never). According to them it looks like the new Aristo products may come out in record breaking time. In O Gauge MTH is famous for introducing products that were NEVER released because dealers failed to place sufficient pre-orders for MTH to continue with production. MANY years passed from the time I ordered my MTH Gauge One Big Boy and when I finally got my hands on one.

I ordered a couple of Aristo 2-8-0's and PCC cars last year but since then my financial situation has changed somewhat and I will be quite happy if it takes another 6 months or more before they arrive and I have to pay for them. Perhaps that long wait for the MTH Big Boy made me a lot more realistic in my expectations of new product delivery dates.

A new delivery of Revolution receivers came last week. That scared me because I was afraid it would soon be followed by those 2-8-0's that I don't have the money for yet. I have more patience than money these days.

Jerry


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark I think your correct about LS not being as popular as it was 3-4 years ago, between LGB (at the time the most recognizable brand) doing the Big Hindenburg and the spike in track prices has had a real chilling effect on newbies and long term afficianados, I figured the end result could be a return to more smaller layouts using R1 or R2 curves but it seams that instead potential newbies have simply been switching to other gauges like O and On30 altogether. Makes sense, if I used my small existing indoor area to rebuild in O27 or On30 I could still pack in alot of trains and track at a price far less than if I was to begin again in G. I could build a decent involved double On30 track layout using Atlas code 100 for about the price of three LS switches, and with the exception of Thomas line, add in the ever rising prices of apparently everything else associated with LS, particularly new items, may have driven alot of interest away, which was the given reason why the BTS supposdly went all scale. So I'm not surprised AC is holding off release of these new items, I wouldnt expect ANY new LS item outside of cheap Thomas stock until the economy significantly improves.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

A friend of mine just a few days ago mentioned that he is thinking about building an outdoor O Gauge layout. Aside from the fact that current O Gauge products are not built to "outdoor standards" it could be an interesting development if Aristo might be giving some thought to a potential for OUTDOOR O Gauge? Purely speculation on my part but when I rebuilt my O Gauge layout years ago (because it is in an unheated and uncooled location) I built it with stainless steel track and turnouts.

Niche markets tend to be profitable when they discover a formerly untapped demand. If Lewis is not thinking about outdoor O Gauge, perhaps he should be.









Perhaps the poor economy along with the high price of track may have created the potential for an entirely new market (yes I do realize that some folks run O Gauge outdoors but they are few and far between). 

The difference between 1:20.3 and 1:32 is (to me) more drastic than that between 1:32 and O Gauge.

I wonder what would happen if plastic O Gauge locomotives started appearing and were marketed as "outdoor ready" (that could work well to diffuse suggestions of plastic locos being cheap). If they were also 2 rail and ran on DC voltage current G Gauge power products would be compatible as well.

Another thought that occurred to me is that if Aristo-Craft enters the O Gauge market it may be a great opportunity to get the Aristo-Craft name and products back into hobby shops that have stopped carrying G Gauge products. MTH used their O Gauge market, dealers and customers to launch their Gauge One products. Perhaps entering O Gauge is not only in Aristo-Craft's best interest but may also be a great way to remind O Gaugers and dealers about the Aristo-Craft G Gauge line. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Sometimes the answers are simple.

I found these on the Aristo Forum:

Dear All,

We have two containers arriving next week and you can see the contents from earlier new arrival posts. The *factory* will soon be back on full schedule and we will have a lot of product produced this year as compared to the minimal deliveries of last year. 

I know you don't like to hear such things, but the *factory* is just recovering from a disruptive bankruptcy. It's a wonderful company and we've detailed it in our video of "How Trains are Made". Now that it's not struggling under a leveraged buyout (LBO), I'm sure it will regain it's former delivery pattern.

All the best,

Lewis Polk


(I believe that same factory makes a lot of stuff for a lot of the other train manufacturers)


Dear All,

We have announced to the trade and now you that we will be selling the Ready Made Toys line of O27 trains this year. Walter Matuch, our former product manager has asked us to help distribute his trains. They are made in the same *factory* as our trains and can be shipped in with our trains in the same containers. 

Walter is responsible for his line and we will not expand this forum to O gauge, nor do we have to take any time or effort away from our G Gauge focus. The RMT line can be seen at www.readymadetoys.com and are all toy trains in 027 size and the locos are 3-rail. The warehousing of this established line should help us cover some of our overhead and allow us to better weather this recession.

All the best,

Lewis POlk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

UH Oh Jerry! 
The containers with your 2-8-0s are on the way! 
Gonna 'pawn' the caboose? lol 

Thanks for cutting loose the rumors. 

John


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Not going to be any 2-8-0 s in those containers. From what I read what was in them it not much of any interest. Same O Same O. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ah, more spin! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader 

Kader took over Sanda Kan 16 months ago......and they are just recovering from a leveraged buyout? 

Sanda Kan went bankrupt and it's an LBO? 

Nobody else who has trains made at the Sanda Kan factories seems to have any real issue with deliveries. 

Good to see you found a new company to support, Jerry, since lgb seems to have fallen from grace. 

Maybe if you ask real nice, Looooooie will let you be a moderator on their forums.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep kind of strange that all the new USAT stuff showed up. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

"An agreement has been reached allowing model railroad manufacturer Kader Manufacturing Trust to purchase Sanda Kan Industrial, according to industry sources. 

Hong-Kong headquartered Kader owns the Bachmann, Williams, Bachmann Branchline, Graham Farish, Liliput and Bachmann China brands and manufactures products for them at its facility in China’s Guandong province. 

Sanda Kan, also based in Hong Kong, manufactures model trains and accessories at several facilities in mainland China and has made items for Athearn, Atlas, Hornby, rivarossi, electrotren, Life-Like, Lionel, Marklin, and Walthers among others. 

According to industry sources, Kader views the acquisition more as a merger of the two companies, with Sanda Kan operating as a separate entity and retaining its current management. 

footnote: As of 13th, kader suspended share trading pending a formal announcement of a significant acquisition......" 

Merger? 
Not a Leveraged Buy Out? 

The LBO was in 2000 by JP Morgan Partners. 
That makes it 10 years and two transactions from an "LBO". 


Takes 10 years to recover?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11 Mar 2010 11:42 AM 
Good to see you found a new company to support, Jerry, since lgb seems to have fallen from grace. 

Maybe if you ask real nice, Looooooie will let you be a moderator on their forums. 



Hi Dave,

Nothing has changed.

LGB's corporate situation never kept me awake at night since I was a customer rather than an owner. I still find and buy all the LGB products I want/need.

Aristo-Craft's corporate situation never keeps me awake at night since I am a customer rather than an owner. I still find and buy all the Aristo products I want/need.

MTH's corporate situation never keeps me awake at night since I am a customer rather than an owner. I still find and buy all the MTH products I want/need.

USAT's corporate situation never keeps me awake at night since I am a customer rather than an owner. I still find and buy all the USAT products I want/need.

Bachmanns corporate situation never keeps me awake at night since I am a customer rather than an owner. I still find and buy all the Bachmann products I want/need.


LGB fell from grace?

That's a surprise to me. When did that happen? All my LGB products seem to run just as great now as they did before the bankruptcy and I have added a number of new LGB products that also perform quite well. I recently renewed my membership in the LGB Club.

Aristo? I just received some additional Revolution Receivers and I'll be ordering a UP Dash 9 along with some stainless steel track and some Eggliners soon. No problems there. I added Aristo UP E-8's and a Cotton Belt GP-40 along with Cotton Belt and MoPac freight cars.

USAT? I've heard they are coming out with a new caboose. I added their MoPac GP-38.

Bachmann moved to 1:20.3 and I am not into that scale.

Me an Aristo Moderator? All I can say is that I have absolutely NO desire to ever own, operate or moderate a forum ever again. No one can appreciate the challenges of being a moderator for any forum until they have tried it. I have a great deal of respect for every moderator for any and all forums but I sincerely hope no one will ever ask me to be a moderator of anything again.

If you go back (as far as you like) I do not think you will find that I have ever said anything derogatory about LGB, Aristo, USAT, MTH, Bachmann or anyone else beyond perhaps commenting on a specific problem I may have had with a specific product at a specific time. I believe in what I call a Corporate Culture and I believe EVERY manufacturer does their best to provide their very best product that meets their Corporate Culture. Price, features and construction may vary but the Corporate Culture tends to show itself in virtually every product available to us. Corporate Culture varies from brand to brand but that is why different brands tends to appeal to different people (and they all occasionally make some lemons).

The BEST job on any forum is that of a member. A Member can say what they like about anything they like. They can come and go as they please and never concern themselves with how someone might interpret something they may say.

In the end what difference does it make to us (as a customer) why any manufacturer does anything? If it is on the shelf at a price we like and we can afford it we buy it. If not we get to keep our money. When I walk into a store (real or online) it is a shooting gallery. I come in with my guns and bullets (money) and their challenge is to provide targets that appeal to me. If I leave without having fired a shot we both lose.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Good news for the rest of us that you never want to act as moderator of a forum again. 
Yeah, fell from grace. 

Nothing more implied. 

Interesting to see sales prices of that stuff now on evilbay. 

Once you stop delivering, you lose a percentage of you customers every 30 days you are shut down. 

Business 101. 

What difference does it make to a customer if an item is NOT on the shelf, which is the entire purpose to this thread (which I didn't start). 

Watch the foot.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? Or,its raining so you thought it might be nice to just stay in and stir the pot a little. Kind of what I'm doing since I can't go out and pour some more roadbed.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Didn't have my McMuffin, so I saw a McMor......ooops. 

It's just too much fun when they've got the blinders on so tight they can only see their nose.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 10 Mar 2010 03:46 PM 
What flavour Kool-Aid do you prefer? 
I love PurpleSaurusRex. Too bad it hasn't been made in years. And no, mixing Kool-Aid Grape and Lemonade does not result in the same taste.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen.... 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, I don't see any??????? 
I wish some of these "folks" would put their time into How To threads.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ah, but add some sour grapes and it's just right! 
At least, expert modelers told us so.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty; we could do a how to thread on how to burn the other manufactures. would that work?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11 Mar 2010 01:24 PM 
Good news for the rest of us that you never want to act as moderator of a forum again. 
Yeah, fell from grace. 

Nothing more implied. 

Just to clear the air of any false information (implied or not) the facts are very clear and readily proven.

First: I was asked to be a moderator for the LGB Club Forum (by Dave Buffington - the Administrator)


Second: When the LGB Club Forum ended the LGB Family Forum was created (by Dave Buffington) in support of LGB and of LGB of America

Third: I was asked (by Dave Buffington) to be the (only) moderator for the LGB Family Forum

Fourth: I was given sole ownership of the LGB Family Forum (by Dave Buffington)


Fifth: I owned and operated the LGB Family Forum until LGB of America ceased to represent LGB in America


Sixth: After LGB went bankrupt and LGB of America no longer represented LGB I lost my motivation to continue with the LGB Family Forum so I offered it back to Dave Buffington and he then offered it to Jack. I thought Jack was the perfect choice. When Jack accepted the forum he courteously invited me to stay on but I felt it best so I elected to remove myself from any responsibility for the forum.

Once the forum became Jack's property it was his right to make any changes he wanted to do with it and any credit for the forum since Jack took over is rightfully his. 


As for "falling from grace" that is typical bs in that Dave gave the forum to me because he approved the way I ran it just as he had approved the way I moderated the LGB Club Forum. As the owner I approved of the way that I ran it and since I GAVE it away there was no one's grace to fall from.


The participation in the forum showed a significant and consistent rise from the day it started to the day I gave it away and happily it continues to grow in membership.


One thing I learned from that forum is that it takes a very special type of person to best operate a forum. LGB was extremely fortunate to have had the talents of Dave Buffington just as MLS is to have Dwight Ennis. I have a great deal of respect for them.


95% of the members of a forum are a delight to work with but on every forum there are 5% or so who are diametrically opposed to how the forum is being run and are determined to change it to the way they want. While I had the right and the ability to suspend or terminate any individual's membership I chose to moderate a few but not to terminate any. If I fell from their grace perhaps it was because they refused to accept and respect the fact that they were a guest on my forum. A few left because the forum rules (clearly stated) were that non-LGB products were not allowed to be promoted over LGB Brand products (the entire purpose of the LGB Family Forum was to promote and to support LGB Brand products). 


As with Aristo-Craft, ownership has its privileges. Becoming a customer or a forum member does not give one the right to tell the owners how to run things.


You have done an excellent job of demonstrating why I no longer have any desire to be a moderator on any forum. Sometimes it was like trying to herd cats.







Funny but I don't recall you ever being a member or posting on the LGB Family Forum (during or after my ownership). I guess your opinion and comments are based on hearsay and personal opinions rather than on any actual facts. 


I continue to have a great deal of respect and appreciation for everyone who built LGB and LGB of America. I hope that someday Marklin will be successful in bringing back that great brand - it is too good to die. 


My first large scale products were made by Aristo-Craft. I bought them before, during and after I ran the LGB Family Forum. I just did not talk about Aristo-Craft there (it was against the rules). 


Cheers,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Email just received...

_ LGB 2010 NEW ITEMS LINE UP IS HERE, I AM GLAD TO SEE THAT WALTHERS & LGB ARE COMMUNICATING AS FAR AS AMERICAN PROTOTYPES BEING MADE. THERE SOME WKM EXCLUSIVES FOR U.S. DISTRIBUTION ONLY. THIS IS WHAT THE COLLECTORS WANT & NEED, THANK YOU LGB FOR GETTING BACK ON TRACK. _[/b]

Now the question is which will get here first The LGB Moguls or the Aristo-Craft Consolidations...

Jerry


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Who cares which come first? 

I've got two lgb moguls, first and second run, updated, been stored, serviceable for years. 

No longer meet my needs. 

Good job defending yourself.........plus, we all like to jab you from time to time so you give us two page dissertations. 
Keeps the moderator's blood pressure right up against their safety valves.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just have to underscore this, the thread started on the issue of excuses and credibility. 

[*]Now the problem is the new factory? It was new 16 months ago....[*]The problem is Chinese New years? How many centuries have the Chinese celebrated this?[*]The problem is some new engineers and computers in the factory? Funny USAT delivered their new product from the same factory.[*]The problem is a 10 year old buyout of a company?[*]Today, on the Aristo forum, even Jonathan's marriage was used for an excuse again, and it's been used for 1 year.. [/list] Credibility... 


Or lack thereof...

Regards, Greg 


Posted By Curmudgeon on 11 Mar 2010 11:42 AM

Ah, more spin! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader 

Kader took over Sanda Kan 16 months ago......and they are just recovering from a leveraged buyout? 

Sanda Kan went bankrupt and it's an LBO? 

Nobody else who has trains made at the Sanda Kan factories seems to have any real issue with deliveries. 

... snip....


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Very interesting. Later RJD


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11 Mar 2010 06:31 PM 
Good job defending yourself.........plus, we all like to jab you from time to time so you give us two page dissertations. 

Thank you for the compliment. I needed to practice my typing skills and my fingers needed the exercise. 

Jerry


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

good thing this is the PUBLIC FORUM fer cryin out loud, or we'd have the cops after us. 

Greg- 
You forgot the early bird jump in brass track prices..... 
And the smoothsides...... 

And how dare you insinuate there is anything wrong with the Polk Mover drive train? 

What is this world coming to........ 

Hey, Stanley talk anybody else in the industry into a 14.5:1 steamer gear ratio?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave your on a roll tonight. Yikes. later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was taking it easy on Lewis. 

You have to read up on the streamliner fiasco, where the back cover of Garden Railroader announced all the new road names for the corrugated streamliners, and then only the Santa Fe were made, and when asked why, the dealers were blamed because they did not preorder. 

Of course, no one ever mentioned preorders until the $# hit fan about where the other road names were. In fact I believe the customers were also blamed, because they should have preordered, although no one was ever told this. 

All this was revealed about a year after the Santa Fe only shipment. 

Credibility... 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Lewis has started to reply in his forum, citing a release from Atlas that they are just getting track with their shipments, since the takeover in "early" 2009...

Well, November 2008 is not early 2009... 14 months... and it's all the fault of Kader, no one else... funny, Bachmann delivered, USAT delivered...


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The foibles of "pre-orders" crosses all scale lines, I heard someone bellyaching about a promised product, or more specificly the cancelling of it due to low preorders. So dont be surprised if this becomes a bigger trend given the crap-conomy we live in, no one is going to stick there necks out. 

As for my own perspective I dont beleive anything is made until I see it on the shelves, till then its all just advertising. Anyone still waiting for USA's 0-6-0 switcher, the one that overnight magically morphed into the Docksider? All the manufacturers have done there bit to kill off marketshare in LS. 

Aristo has made alot of promises that they have never fullfilled, remember the promised SD-9? I do. or the axles on the Mikes? Theres a very good reason Bmann is so tight lipped about new product, they dont say sheee-iit till its almost ready for production. likely just to avoid the hyperbola if they give to much time for consumers to think about it, remember the Vulcan? 

As for LGBs "fall from grace" it was NO gracefull fall, ....it was a fully armed B1B jet augering into the Mojave desert floor at Mach 2 on the meter. You could feel the heat from the fireball here in LA. Then after LGB did the Big Firework self destruction in such a huge public fashion, a certain portion of the fanbase then proceeded to foster alot of animosity in the LS community anywhere whenever anyone tried to actually rationally discuss the situation. Alot of that animosity was redirected directly at LGB users in general even those who did nothing wrong and the product itself, the certain portions zeal to protect king and country was viewed by outsiders and newbies more as "what a bunch of nutballs" (more direct quotes from discussions at shows) great advertising for LS, no wonder its dropped off a bit. 

Marklin then ignored the US market for close to 3 years, then chose one of the most insular distributors around and then raised the prices on everything even the stuff thats been around for over 20 years. On top of that the quality has gone down (direct quote from a long time dealer) and they are still not shipping alot anywhere anyway. 

As for Bachmann, when was the last release that didnt have some kind of "gnashing of teeth" associated with it? I personally wouldnt be surprised if the Forney is the end of the line for any new 1/20 product, instead Bmann/Kader focusing on the potentially way more profitable On30 and the Thomas and freinds lineup in LS. 

I dunno maybe I'm just tired out ( I do get up at 5am for work ) but it seams like the only makers not imbroiled in some rubbarb of some sort are USA, HLW, and Accu (but I'm sure someone will point out failings there as well) Theres nothing new in any issue of GR, the only reason I still read it is for the layouts, not the advertising - that hasnt changed in over a year. the only thing that changes is the prices.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I suppose it all depends on who you use for a "Technical Advisor", eh?


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't what the big deal is. Why do folks get so worked up when there are production delays? Is it because they pre-paid for something? If not, then what difference does it make when new product hits the market? It gets here when it gets here.

...shrug...


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Probably has a lot to do with who....and how often.....and add it to the list.......and then somebody jumps up and says something. 

Just tell the truth. 
Don't blame everything under the sun. 
Oy, Vey!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess the big deal is feeling conned--I got so tired of waiting for them to actually release the consol that I just went out and made one. So they lost a sale. I'm going to use a Mikado drive to build another one. If the consol had actually been out, I'd have bought one. 


Same with the "kupler." I'd be interested, but it never appears, and now I'm lookng for an alternative, either kadee or the new AML couplers. It's partly a planning issue--decisions get put on hold because they are supposed to be releasing something 



It seems worth pointing out that they did deliver the live steam 0-4-0 this year. Later than claimed, but it's out. A wasn't the Revo this year as well?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The Revco was last year late. Yep at least they got the LS out but heard a lot about problems keeping it lit and a lot of leaks. Later RJD


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Heard a lot about the live steam Mikado, I think it sold well, have heard little about the new Aristo live steamer. I wonder how may Mikado's ever get run though.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually seems to be a pretty good product, especially if you do the "tweaks" 

But in keeping with the thread, and responding to Ray: 

Ray it's not about the delays, it's about not being truthful about the reasons, and I mean very untruthful. 

I don't think you read the entire thread, but there are many examples where it's just way out of reality. 

Again: in mid December (the post is on the Aristo forum) Lewis stated that the PCC car would be arriving in January. Well, it takes about 45 days to get off the docks and into a US warehouse. That means that the product had to be already manufactured and in boxes and on the docks in China. 

Now the PCC is delayed months. 

This is beyond a production delay, someone was not telling the truth. 

That is the BIG DEAL... and this is just one of many examples. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 11 Mar 2010 10:26 PM 
The foibles of "pre-orders" crosses all scale lines, I heard someone bellyaching about a promised product, or more specificly the cancelling of it due to low preorders. So dont be surprised if this becomes a bigger trend given the crap-conomy we live in, no one is going to stick there necks out. 

As for LGBs "fall from grace" it was NO gracefull fall, ....it was a fully armed B1B jet augering into the Mojave desert floor at Mach 2 on the meter. You could feel the heat from the fireball here in LA. Then after LGB did the Big Firework self destruction in such a huge public fashion, a certain portion of the fanbase then proceeded to foster alot of animosity in the LS community anywhere whenever anyone tried to actually rationally discuss the situation. Alot of that animosity was redirected directly at LGB users in general even those who did nothing wrong and the product itself, the certain portions zeal to protect king and country was viewed by outsiders and newbies more as "what a bunch of nutballs" (more direct quotes from discussions at shows) great advertising for LS, no wonder its dropped off a bit. 

Marklin then ignored the US market for close to 3 years, then chose one of the most insular distributors around and then raised the prices on everything even the stuff thats been around for over 20 years. On top of that the quality has gone down (direct quote from a long time dealer) and they are still not shipping alot anywhere anyway. 



You cannot blame Marklin and Walthers for the delay, honestly? Marklin tried to get product here but could not due to some legal issues with LGBofA/G45/Silvergate and claims of distribution. And Walthers has a huge distribution network, so not sure where this is coming from.

Yes, many dealys or cancellations of items due to lack of reservations. Has happened in other scales for years, nothing new there either.

But what gets me is the complaints about price increases in Large Scale. It is not just there, look at some small scale prices, several hundred dollars for an HO loco that is NOT brass?

Agree with you Greg, just come out and say if there is not enough orders, there are some European makers that do this regularly.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 12 Mar 2010 09:08 AM 
Heard a lot about the live steam Mikado, I think it sold well, have heard little about the new Aristo live steamer. I wonder how may Mikado's ever get run though. 
Hi Jerry,

My Aristo LS Mike is not run often (I am not a LS guy) but when I do run it, it runs great and I have been very pleased with it. 


My original concern had been the plastic construction but that concern ended when I had a very impressive fire under the Mike at Diamondhead a few years ago. It was my fault as I was refueling it when an alcohol fired passing loco ignited the butane that had leaked as I was refueling. The fire was huge and the Aristo Mike was totally undamaged by it.


Dave and Larry tuned up and did some adjustments to the Mike for me and I have found the Live Steam community very helpful in getting the best performance from the Aristo Mikes although there were some twisted knickers about the LGB Mikado sound system that I installed in the tender. 


For me at least the Aristo Mike was exactly what it took in terms of price and features to get me to venture into Live Steam. I have not heard of anyone who was unhappy with their Aristo Mike.

The Aristo LS Mike cost me about the same as one of my LGB Mikes and gets run just about the same.

The other Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Drifitng the topic to plastic and live steam...

Jerry, I have a Hornby OO Scale live steam Mallard that uses electricity to heat the water. The boiler is in the tender and the loco has two working pistons, so it gets HOT! But does not deform due to heat. Impressive stuff, that's for sure.

Back to the topic.

It seems that the reason folks are getting upset about the 'anticipated' delay (just to clarify, there is no official announcement of a delay on the 2-8-0, is there? Just the groundwork for one.) is based on a manufacturer being very accessible, vocal and optimistic on his own web forum. 

I do sympathize with the people who placed pre orders and have waited somewhat patiently for years. I placed an order for a USA trains GP7 (with Charles Ro) that I was told would arrive in 2-3 weeks in Jan 1998. I think those actually showed up at stores closer to June 98. By that time, I was fed up and changed my order to an aristo FA-FB that was in stock. So, I can understand the frustration that people have. I have not placed any preorders since that time. Too frustrating for something that is supposed to be fun. 

Mark


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Some people just like to whine, grumble and/or complain. It's kind of a hobby within a hobby for them. Production delays are a part of the industry these days, in virtually every scale. 

Folks in LS are just lucky they are not in O gauge, for example, where delays of a year or more are very common.

And anyone who actaully pre-pays for a preordered item has only himself (or herself) to blame. Find a dealer who does not require a deposit or payment in advance. There are plenty of them around.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Allan W. Miller on 12 Mar 2010 01:38 PM 

Some people just like to whine, grumble and/or complain. It's kind of a hobby within a hobby for them. Production delays are a part of the industry these days, in virtually every scale. 

Folks in LS are just lucky they are not in O gauge, for example, where delays of a year or more are very common.

And anyone who actaully pre-pays for a preordered item has only himself (or herself) to blame. Find a dealer who does not require a deposit or payment in advance. There are plenty of them around. 






And. conversely, there are those who continuously make excuses for said delays, thereby acting as an "enabler" for the practice.

Production delays are common.
Announcing vapourware also seems to be common.

I know one LS manufacturer who wanted to build a bay-window caboose, but, a competitor had already announced it.
So he waited, a couple of years.
No bay window caboose.
So, he built one, delivered it, been a LONG time now, still no caboose from the competitor.
At least I think it was bay-window and not extended vision.

What you see is an attempt to convince folks in the future you were "first" with an item, by pointing to an announcement YEARS prior.

****, he's even tried to convince some he was "first" because they were "thinking" of something allegedly before a competitor came out with product.

Not a good move for consumers that don't have tightly-fitted blinders.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For about the fifth time, it's not about delays, it's about not being truthful about why there are delays, or being untruthful about dates when they know what they are saying is untrue. 

Dispute my example about the Aristo PCC car being delivered in January, and the announcement was in December... just could NOT be true at all. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

We are not whining just want the truth about delays. AS said it's the constant BS, just own up to the fact and give us the straight answer. Later RJD


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some really cheap shots. How would you like it addressed???? Seriously, I would not want to be in the G gauge business. Way too many us want a particular item, in a particular scheme, right now. And when it doesn't happen, we spend our time on the internet writing about why it doesn't happen. Take your pick, write your own. But I still really enjoy my RS3, mikado and host of other products, and quite frankly would probably not be in G gauge without Aristo products. Just wishing it were a little easier. 

Dear All,

Due to the economy the XYZ had been delayed.


Dear All,

We currently don't have enough cash in our pockets to pay the Chinese to cast the molds, assemble and fill and ship the containers back to the US. 


Dear All,

I can't fully remember what this Chinese fellow said about when he will get around to making Aristo stuff. They keep talking about vacations and weddings. And he wasn't real sure when he could round up enough workers who knew how to wire a track battery switch on the 2-8-0 or PCC. 


Dear All, 

We can only afford to make a few PCCs and 2-8-0s, but that's not enough to fill up a container. We are hoping to fill the rest of the container with O27 trains. 


Dear All,

If everybody who visits the forum would buy at least 2 new Aristo items this month and convice 2 HO modelers to enter G scale, that would infuse enough cash to move forward on the new products. 

Dear All,

We set the standards for G gauge caboose. Many of you asked for a NE caboose, but quite frankly we do not see the demand for it given the investment in new molds. We will continue to market the long caboose except in the orignal paint scheme, which is retired to ebay collectors status. 


Dear All,

Just like my competitors, I will say nothing. You get it when it gets here.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dang Tom, you just about listed every excus..er..._reason _that the manufacturers usually give! Of course, there are the ones that they can _never_ give out! I think they call them "internal memos"...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

First one Tom listed would be the best. look at AMS and the GP60 delay, Stated due to economy it has been delayed. Works for me end of asking questions. Let them make the next move as to when they want to re announce the run. Why does one want to just go on and on about why it's not here. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The manufacturer isn't obliged to tell us anything. But Aristo kind of makes its own trouble. They post news about a new model--let's take the consol--and then they keep coming up with new and different reasons why it's not here. I looked just ow, found a post from a guy pre-ordering the consol in june 2006. That's four years ago. 

When did the production sample first appear? At the 2008 ECLSTS, I think. 


They aren't obliged to say anything at all, but there's kind of a "Lucy and the football" feel to the thing.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Mike- That's the point. 
They aren't obliged to tell us squat, but if they do, in the algore internet era, by gum they had better keep their story straight.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hmmm I wonder if some Chinese love Mr P as much as some folks here? 

Could be that they are just telling him what he wants to hear, laughing behind his back as he Makes the Latest announcement.... 

Maost Diabollical! lol


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 13 Mar 2010 12:50 PM 
The manufacturer isn't obliged to tell us anything. But Aristo kind of makes its own trouble. They post news about a new model--let's take the consol--and then they keep coming up with new and different reasons why it's not here. I looked just ow, found a post from a guy pre-ordering the consol in june 2006. That's four years ago. 

When did the production sample first appear? At the 2008 ECLSTS, I think. 


They aren't obliged to say anything at all, but there's kind of a "Lucy and the football" feel to the thing.




Because they tell you what you want to hear, simple to understand if you have been around for while....... Can only get away with it for just so long..............


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

There is a big difference between making a prediction about a future event, like the end of the world, and making a statement of present fact, like " this product is now in stock". 

I have read those forum postings about a certain trolley car, and it is quite obvious that the import arrival date is a moving target. 

In my view, people have been unusually well-informed about pre-production processes and the arrival of pre production samples. ---Too well informed to warrant complaints. Especially complaints carelessly alleging dishonesty. In view of the LGB debacle in Europe, American large scale modelers are lucky to have products on the shelves, . . . ..mainly thanks to people like Charles and Lewis


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

And I, for one, am glad that the importer stopped things to improve the circuitry, and do extra QC, and add working stoplights that light up on deceleration. TUL


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Gol darnit, kin't yew city fellerz unnerstan nuthin? Etz jest lak dinner, yew'll git et whun et'z reddy, an nawt befor! Naw git yer nozez outta thet bowl, an skedaddle awta th kitchun befo' ah whup yer impudent backsydz!


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Tom Leaton on 14 Mar 2010 12:35 PM 
And I, for one, am glad that the importer stopped things to improve the circuitry, and do extra QC, and add working stoplights that light up on deceleration. TUL 

Tom i agree, i think the stop lights will be a cool feature, but that was from early last year how long does it take to add stop lights? and no matter how long they hold up there locos the QC will still be poor and they wont run rite brand new out of the box. This is a givin with Aristo







This of course is based on past experiance with there product.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I mentioned to Lewis to put the QSI socket in his PCC about 3 years ago, in person. 

He told me his engineers said it could not be done. I picked it up and showed him where there was room. 

2 years later the product is delayed because of the addition of the socket. 

I like the idea, I question why it took so long. But at least it will be there from all reports. 

Holding up the production of a long-awaited product to put a stoplight in it is pretty strange. It does sound like an excuse. 

My theory is that the brand new motor blocks were a sticking point, have to be completely different from anything else they have. 

If you have noticed, all the locos are either using the same modular gearbox or being converted. There's no invention there, so these things should be fairly quick, as the GP40 showed. 

Inventing/designing something completely new takes longer. 

Regards, Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

You cannot blame Marklin and Walthers for the delay, honestly? Marklin tried to get product here but could not due to some legal issues with LGBofA/G45/Silvergate and claims of distribution. And Walthers has a huge distribution network, so not sure where this is coming from.

Yes, many dealys or cancellations of items due to lack of reservations. Has happened in other scales for years, nothing new there either.

But what gets me is the complaints about price increases in Large Scale. It is not just there, look at some small scale prices, several hundred dollars for an HO loco that is NOT brass?

Agree with you Greg, just come out and say if there is not enough orders, there are some European makers that do this regularly.


Price increases in Large Scale are not across the board. USAT has not increased prices to the extent or engaged in price fixing like Aristocraft, Also, when you spend big money on HO, you usually get all the bells and whistles (DCC/Sound) pre installed and they always work properly right out the box. So apples to apples there is no comparison. Large Scale in brass is much higher priced than HO in brass.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Truthman on 16 Mar 2010 10:39 AM 



You cannot blame Marklin and Walthers for the delay, honestly? Marklin tried to get product here but could not due to some legal issues with LGBofA/G45/Silvergate and claims of distribution. And Walthers has a huge distribution network, so not sure where this is coming from.

Yes, many dealys or cancellations of items due to lack of reservations. Has happened in other scales for years, nothing new there either.

But what gets me is the complaints about price increases in Large Scale. It is not just there, look at some small scale prices, several hundred dollars for an HO loco that is NOT brass?

Agree with you Greg, just come out and say if there is not enough orders, there are some European makers that do this regularly.


Price increases in Large Scale are not across the board. USAT has not increased prices to the extent or engaged in price fixing like Aristocraft, Also, when you spend big money on HO, you usually get all the bells and whistles (DCC/Sound) pre installed and they always work properly right out the box. So apples to apples there is no comparison. Large Scale in brass is much higher priced than HO in brass. 



Unfortunately, not all of that new HO works out of the box. My father has a fleet of PRR HO engines. Some of the "sound and DCC" ones from two well known HO mfgrs spend more time at the shop or in the mail than at his house....and his Bowser locos from the 1960s soldier on. 

And I said not brass afterall, I got non DCC non sound diesels for about $60 from a walk-in B&M store, try that now. A check of one famous online discounter shows the same model now for $125, $110 more for DCC and sound.


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Not much going on in the world then ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, I think the point has been driven home, and the thread "re-railed" successfully several times. 

It stands in testimony. 

Aristo was not pleased, but offered no answers or explanation. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Nick, you regularly like to make statements like "Aristo locos never work out of the box". I do not dispute your experience, but I have to tell you I'm SO thankful that I must have gotten the ONLY 12 or so Aristo locomotives that have worked fine since I "unboxed" them, and continue to. 

Ed


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed,
The proof is on the forums all you need to do is read here and other sites. Im glad you have had good luck but didnt you have to change out your brand new trucks on you GP-40 to get it to lower the amp draw due the the HIGH current draw of the GP blocks? Im not saying that to be a wise ass all im saying is you would think it would work properly out of the box. Many people including Ted D. had issues with them as well.... I am starting to understand that some people just wont say anything negative about there aristo stuff even if they are having troubles, But in all Honesty those people are just hurting the hobby by being quiet. the manufacture has no reason to repair and upgrade if people dont speek up.








Im over it at this point that why i didnt point out all the issues with Aristo locos in this thread. Ive grown tired of all the Games, If some of you guys want to buy sub par stuff, then by all means go ahead, its not my money I know better.







And a final comment, As long as im in the hobby i WILL never say anything good about ARISTO locos because i know exactly what they are, and we will leave it at that.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OH ,my to dear friends.. play nice now. 

Nick knows I'm an Aristo fan 
But when I hear this" 
"some people just wont say anything negative about there aristo stuff even if they are having troubles, But in all Honesty those people are just hurting the hobby by being quiet. " 
Is totally NOT true for a few. 

Lewis knows of all my problems and repeat issues. Yet there is a more diplimatic way of dealing with the issue and offering solutions with out making "blanket" statements that causes some new folks to maybe NOT get into the hobby. 

The balance between pointing out flaws and encouraging newbies is hard. 

I have found that if I keep "promoting the hobby" as my focus, it helps me deal with all people, clubs and issues. 

The only reason I even looked at this thread is I saw Ed and Nicks name on the home page. Other than those two being my friends, this is a waste of time and effort thread.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick didn't you just buy two chrome E8's the CB&Q's Those are Aristo aren't they???? How they runnin for ya?? Regal


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 19 Mar 2010 05:20 PM 
Nick didn't you just buy two chrome E8's the CB&Q's Those are Aristo aren't they???? How they runnin for ya?? Regal 

Sure did Jerry, and i ripped them apart already and installed USA motor blocks and have sold the motor blocks for almost as much as i paid for the locos. Theres a dummie born every minute, AAAAAAAAAAA Jerry.......







and you should see what will becoming from ECLSTS................. Cha Ching...............


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Marty if this such a waste of time why are you wasting your time reading and posting to this thread. BTW do you know whose was the snitch that reported this thread to Lewis that was started By me. I notice that none of the Aristo gang has come forward to dispute any of the example given in this thread. Later RJD


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick, You get to meet the Hairy Beast at the ECLSTS.  
LAO


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 19 Mar 2010 05:48 PM 
Posted By blueregal on 19 Mar 2010 05:20 PM 
Nick didn't you just buy two chrome E8's the CB&Q's Those are Aristo aren't they???? How they runnin for ya?? Regal 

Sure did Jerry, and i ripped them apart already and installed USA motor blocks and have sold the motor blocks for almost as much as i paid for the locos. Theres a dummie born every minute, AAAAAAAAAAA Jerry.......







and you should see what will becoming from ECLSTS................. Cha Ching............... 

Sooooooooooooooooo Nicky what? are you becoming????????????? Hah Regal


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 19 Mar 2010 05:17 PM 
OH ,my to dear friends.. play nice now. 

Nick knows I'm an Aristo fan 
But when I hear this" 
"some people just wont say anything negative about there aristo stuff even if they are having troubles, But in all Honesty those people are just hurting the hobby by being quiet. " 
Is totally NOT true for a few. 

Lewis knows of all my problems and repeat issues. Yet there is a more diplimatic way of dealing with the issue and offering solutions with out making "blanket" statements that causes some new folks to maybe NOT get into the hobby. 

The balance between pointing out flaws and encouraging newbies is hard. 

I have found that if I keep "promoting the hobby" as my focus, it helps me deal with all people, clubs and issues. 

The only reason I even looked at this thread is I saw Ed and Nicks name on the home page. Other than those two being my friends, this is a waste of time and effort thread. 



And Marty makes some good points, thats why as of late, I havent commented on a whole bunch of threads, I could have but i didnt. Im learning when you try to help people some times its better to just not.
To each there own...... Everybody has there favorite Manufacture and they will back them to the max no matter what.... and everybody knows Im a USA fan, cause ive gotten nothing but great products from them....... and i will leave it at that.







And Jerry i never said i wouldnt buy aristo products, but i do know what im buying and what it will need ahead of time. Also i hope Ed doesnt think that i was being disrespeckful to him cause that wasnt my intentions, just wanted to point out my side. I like Ed cause he speaks his mind with fairness.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

He may get to meet him but I doubt if he buys any of there products. Later RJD


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Marty, I have 1 Bachmann steam locomotive, 1 Aristo diesel and 3 USA diesel locomotives. All of them have worked out of the box the first time. The GP38-2 did have the rear truck wires reversed, but that took a few minutes to replug them with a friend. But to make a point, I have a Aristo Dash-9 that was my first diesel. Wes Smith helped me set up my Train Engineer and once it was set up, the engine ran the first time! I am sorry that Nick has had problems with A/C locomotives, but his statement "ain't worth a spit in a bucket". 
Ron


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Please Ron, when you get anywere near the amount of Aristo locos that i have then i will listen to your comments, But rite now in all honesty your comments dont mean SPIT to me as you say.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Nick, I did not take your comment as disrespectful at all. Your comment was a very logical one concerning my GP40. Actually though, my GP40 ran just fine as it came from the factory. In fact if I had been running track power I never would have changed the trucks. The reason for my changeout of trucks was merely to satisfy my personal desire to have a GP40 that ran faster and with less current. And as I said to you, I respect your feelings, and I too have heard of many problems here on this forum, but I truly do feel fortunate because I have had next to no problems with my Aristo engines. My own personal experience with USAT engines was not favorable either, but I try not to blast USAT because of my personal experiences. And yes, my experience with USAT is much skimpier than your experience with Aristo!!









Ed


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been in this hobby for 20 years and the plethora of equipment that is easily available now is amazing. I mean, how many things can you run? I don't have all that many locos/cars, but some still sit for a year and I'm sure most of you are the same. Rejoice in what you have and enjoy it, when the new stuff finally gets here then get it.


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## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

Well said Jerry, I could not agree more.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the operative sentence here is like the above two have said " Enjoy what you have" Almost anything tangible can be taken away at any time due to some un-forseen circumstance,and even something intangible like our health which allows us to enjoy this wonderful hobby!! I remember a time not too long ago where my trains actually supported my wife and I when I was unfortunately unemployed for over 10 mos. one time. I had to sell alot of my train things to survive that one, and I appreciate what I have or will end up with after trimming down my inventory now a little too!! Regal


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 19 Mar 2010 05:52 PM 
do you know whose was the snitch that reported this thread to Lewis that was started By me. I notice that none of the Aristo gang has come forward to dispute any of the example given in this thread. Later RJD 

Hi RJD,

Look no further. I am the "snitch" (there were probably more than one). I find the description "snitch" interesting because usually when someone asks a question on MLS it is because they are looking for someone to help them find an answer to their question. 

*wonder how much of a delay this will cause for the PCC, 2-8-0 and RDC3*

In your original post you asked a question about deliveries so I asked Lewis and looked on the Aristo Forum. I then posted the answers here that I found on the Aristo Forum.

Where else would one go for answers to questions about Aristo-Craft?

I only post quotes. I don't represent any manufacturer so I don't dispute or defend anything on their behalf. Lewis (like the other manufacturers) no longer posts on MLS but he is interested in what his customers have to say.

I have a couple CTA PCC's (with a pre-order deposit at St. Aubins because they appear to have an exclusive right to the CTA versions) and a couple Undecorated 2-8-0's on order but I can wait. I've waited much longer for stuff from other manufacturers and I never place any particular value on expected delivery dates.

I don't know about an Aristo Gang any more than the LGB Mafia. I don't belong to either but if there are any such paid positions I would like to apply for them.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 19 Mar 2010 04:26 PM 
didnt you have to change out your brand new trucks on you GP-40 to get it to lower the amp draw due the the HIGH current draw of the GP blocks? Im not saying that to be a wise ass all im saying is you would think it would work properly out of the box. Many people including Ted D. had issues with them as well.... 

Hello Nick,

I was not aware that there was an issue about the GP-40's. I have one and a friend has one. Both are pretty new and run fine. They have not had much use so far so I am not suggesting that a problem may not exist. 

It just happened that I noticed the following in the Aristo-Craft March/April Insider which I just received via email:

*President's Letter: GP-40 Issues*

*by Lewis Polk *



*Many of you have written about your success with the GP-40, but there have been some with issues as well.* 





*If you have such an issue, please e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send a call tag for your gear box or complete loco and we will look it over for problems. Of course you need to send your physical address as well and pack the item up for shipping safely back to us.* 
I don't have a position on this. I am just reporting what is in the Insider.

Jerry


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 25 Mar 2010 08:56 AM 
Posted By aceinspp on 19 Mar 2010 05:52 PM 
do you know whose was the snitch that reported this thread to Lewis that was started By me. I notice that none of the Aristo gang has come forward to dispute any of the example given in this thread. Later RJD 

Hi RJD,

Look no further. I am the "snitch" 
Regards,

Jerry
Figures.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

From a few reports with problems with the GP-40 trucks, I decided to see if my GP-40's had any of the problems listed. Neither one did. They both ran very well with both motors in each of the locomotives starting at the same at the same time and as near as I could visually tell, they were running at the speed throughout the voltage curve. 

From conversations with Ed Headington, he had the same performance with his GP-40 but decided to change out the GP-40 trucks to the FA trucks because when measuring the current draw on the GP-40 trucks, they drew 2.4 amps while the FA trucks drew just under .75 amps. 

This certainly is not a real issue when running track power using a 10-20 amp power supply. But, because like Ed, I run battery power for most of our trains, it would make sense to use lower draw power trucks to increase run time. Ed has reported that his runtime has doubled after the change out. I experienced an increase of 75% more run time. The difference in this case is that we're using different battery packs. 

I guess I can classify myself as part of the "Battery Mafia" as I am dedicated to battery power for my trains more than 10 years ago. 100%?????? no, but for my larger, long haul trains, they are battery operated. I have 4 track powered units running on my layout daily. 3 "to and fro" trolleys and one oval running through the village. The 3 mainline loops and yards are non powered. Every one runs trains differently.


When we first started with battery power, I converted many different locomotive brands. Some drew less current than others. I quickly learned in order to achieve longer runtimes, I would choose the locomotives that drew the least current. *In my experience* (qualifying statement), Hartland power trucks had the least current draw and give me the longest run times pulling very long trains. Again, *in my experience*, the Bachmann motors are quite good followed by the Buehler motors in the smaller LGB locomotives. The larger LGB (Moguls, Alcos, Genesis, F7's), Aristo Craft and USA locomotives had higher current draw when running the RC receivers through the main boards of these locomotives. They ran just fine but the battery runtime was not as long as the ones previously mentioned.

To achieve longer battery run times with these locomotives, I experimented by completely gutting the electronics out of the LGB Alcos, USA GP's, and F3, and Aristo-Craft units. Installed all LED lighting and running power directly to the power trucks. Power is supplied to the locomotives with connectors from the battery/Sound/RC boxcars fitted with interchangable batteries. By doing these conversions, I've been able to run as many as 4 two motor locomotives in one consist with one RC receiver pulling 20-30 freight cars or up to 11 USA Streamline passenger cars. Many of the units are consistently running as doubleheaders using one receiver. Runtimes vary from 2 3/4 hours to 8 hours. 

One of the most remarkable increased runtimes came with the LGB Alco.... When running through the OEM board and regular lights, runtime was about 3 hours. Gutting it, using LED's and direct power to the trucks, runtime has increased to 6 and more hours.

Just reporting that these are experiments and changes that we've made to make our railroading experience more enjoyable. Isn't that what it's all about. 

Trains is phun....







Right????


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well know we know. Guess folks just do not believe what they have read and been lied to for so many times they now believe it. Says a lot for them. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Kool-Aid.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As an aside, 2.4 amps is way too much for the GP40, I have a friend (who had the motor blocks replaced) whose motors drew about that WITH THE LOCO UP ON A BLOCK, NO LOAD, WHEELS SPINNING FREE.

There have been problems. Not everyone has seen them.

Here is also a wheel from a GP40 that has only been run indoors, and it's quite new: (notice there is very little actual wear on the wheel)


This individual is a long time Aristo supporter, and until very recently had ONLY Aristo products, and a lot of them. 











I am happy that Aristo has acknowledged there are problems and will fix them. It's good to know what might happen, so potential buyers can make an informed decision. It's too bad that the issues weren't listed, like "watch out for high current draw and/or smoke from the motors", or "you might experience premature failure of the plating".


But no reason for Aristo to shoot themselves in the foot, as I said they did finally acknowledge there are some problems, they will be fixed, and to their credit, they will issue a call tag so it does not cost you money for these factory defects. 


Regards, Greg


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan said 
When we first started with battery power, I converted many different locomotive brands. Some drew less current than others. I quickly learned in order to achieve longer runtimes, I would choose the locomotives that drew the least current. *In my experience* (qualifying statement), Hartland power trucks had the least current draw and give me the longest run times pulling very long trains. Again, *in my experience*, the Bachmann motors are quite good followed by the Buehler motors in the smaller LGB locomotives. The larger LGB (Moguls, Alcos, Genesis, F7's), Aristo Craft and USA locomotives had higher current draw when running the RC receivers through the main boards of these locomotives. They ran just fine but the battery runtime was not as long as the ones previously mentioned

What battery sizes are you normally useing for the Hartland power trucks , how many cells , what size cells , and home soldered togethered or purchased assembled packs ?
Hartland Interurban combine for instance .










Thanks 
Dennis


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis:

There was a slight derailment to this thread but still related to Aristo Craft. If you want to talk about something completely different than the topic why not start a new thread. The Battery forum would be a perfect place to start a thread on Battery. Later RJD


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dennis... Sent you a PM...


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm..... honesty from the manufacturers? What an interesting concept! (It'll never work...) There's always things going on behind the scenes whether it's politics, economics or just personality conflicts! Kinda like like making sausage! You don't want to look too close at the process or you might get ill!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Things can change, if enough people ask for it. 

You are right Steve, I cannot say all manufacturers are "perfect", and I don't expect them to be. But I have not seen Bachmann or USAT do things to the same level. 

Sure, every manufacturer has a case where they said they would make something and they did not. 

But, I've never seen USAT, Bachmann, AML, MTH do the same thing like the new passenger cars: 

1. Full page color ad on back of GR - new streamliners, show picture of every road. No caveats about availability, not really going to make them, limited production. 
2. One year later, only the Santa Fe is made. 
3. Another year later, complaints from people on Aristo's own forum bring the response: 

Well, we did not make them because there were not enough pre-orders from the dealers. 

Dealers were never told production hinged on preorders (and never done before in the history of Aristo) 
Customers were never told that production hinged on preorders (and again never done before and never communicated). 

Now, that is an excuse for whatever the real reasons are. 

So, are people asking for complete honesty, open kimono, tell all? We'd be silly to ask for all of that. 

But, getting excuses that are blatantly not true, i.e. blaming it on the dealers and customers, yep, that's the core of the thread. 

I don't believe it's asking too much, and stopping that kind of talk, and just saying "we did not have the money", or "we screwed up, we forgot to do X" would go a long way to restoring faith. 

Since we have to wait for new products, where should we "store" our dollars for the next purchase? Hmm... with the people who are most likely to deliver on their promises. 

So, it's in the spirit of communicating to Aristo that there ARE people who don't like it, and it DOES affect sales, to make things better, it should be a win-win. 

Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Honesty? probably never, and I think you are going to see more and more of the pre-order thingy, and or sending the money first on an item before production, or before a sale, with the economy spiraling downward, and the state of the economy as we speak getting worse! No retailer wants to produce something in mass to have it NOT sell well, and thus I think at the very least they will do surveys to at least see what the mood of the general public is for a product before its produced in the not too distant future!! Regal 

No open kimono but at least accountability would be nice!! But then again we can vote or put a business out of business by just not using our fingers to purchase or not visiting a retail site, or just plain not buy from a retailer we feel is not up to our standards!! Oh boy what a concept!! What you tink????????LOL


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

ARRRGGGHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Lewis.... PLEASE keep your Kimono closed! 


My Supposition; 
When the economy was rosy, announcements were made... As boom became bust inventories were counted and future runs determined by what wasn't on the shelf with no regard to shelf time (release dates).... Uncertain pocketbooks didn't buy the Streamliners ATSF, fast enough, so no more were made. 
China has seen enough trendy toys come and go and may have discounted G's staying power....


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

You saw what happened to the large scale manufacturer who manufactured products first and then advertised and took orders for them later.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, at the risk of beating a dead horse, let me clarify: 

Asking ahead of time and wanting preorders, like brass locos, is FINE. 

Promising something, not delivering after 2 years, and then claiming that we should have pre-ordered is NOT. 

Please be very clear on the difference, that's the entire point of the thread. 

I'm not asking people to do the impossible. (Yes Lewis in a Kimono might be as bad as Larry in the Aristo speedos!) 

It's the title of the thread: "Another excuse".... it's the excuses instead of the real reason... it's blaming the dealers and customers for something the manufacturer did... 

EXCUSES 

Regards, Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
That's about the most succinct way to put it that I have read! I know you said that you hadn't experienced it with Bachmann or AMS but these things are happening all over Large Scale! It's just that Aristocraft's practice (as described here) is the most egregeous! Bachmann tried to "bully" us that post criticisms of Bachmann's product by telling us to "cool it with the criticisms or (the new announced product) may be cancelled!" (God's honest truth, they actually tried to tell the consumer what they could think and say about a product!) 
I don't have a lot to do with Aristocraft but I completely agree that trying to put the blame on consumers and retailers is unconscionable!! There's "spin", there's obfuscation and there's "misstatements" but this is........disappointing.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, I wonder if you would do me a favor. I am not disagreeing with you or arguing with you, but I personally don't recall the post on the Aristo forum where Lewis stated "we didn't produce the stramliners because of a lack of pre-orders from our dealers". Could you possibly give me a thread and/or a date where/when that was posted?? I would just like to read it too.

I appreciate it.

Thanks, Ed


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Greg is a 100% correct, I wanted to order a set but my dealer told me they werent made. So the next day i called Aristocraft and they confirmed that they were not made due to lack of preorders. So i decided i would buy the USA version and im very happy that i went this route. As someone once told me ( You snooze you loose)
Johnn


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, if you would use the search function on the AC site, and put the word preorder in it.. . you would see a list of topics (about 5 seconds).

You would see a thread called: "*Quetion for Lewis, Streamliners*" which took me about 3 seconds to see...

Then if you scroll the thread to see the responses from Lewis, you will see what I am talking about.

Not disagreeing, but this is about the third or fourth time you've asked me to prove what I was saying, you will find the search function works somewhat on that forum.

Some quotes: (From Lewis)

June 2007: "The next time we run Streamliners we will make kits, It will be sometime next year once the current run sells out."

September 2008: "We ran lowered streamliners with led lighting, ball bearing races and seated passengers."

(the forum responded that Aristo did not make everything advertised, only the Santa Fe)

September 2008: "We work off of reservations made by our customers ......... the dealers."

(more unhappy responses)

Then I responded:

Lewis, this is the first time I have heard of how this works.

I assumed when Aristo assigns part numbers and road names, announces something for sale, and especially advertises them, that no other "votes of confidence" were necessary.

Your statement honestly worries me. So, what announced products do we need to put the "vote of confidence" on, i.e. make our dealers preorder?

Consolidation?
More streamliners (actually you already answered this)
2 Bay hoppers?
RDC-3?
0-4-0 Live steam?
2-4-2 Live steam?

Please take this as an honest question, you have just stated something I believe has never been stated before.

I intend to buy several from the above categories, and if I need to take additional action now, then I want to know.

Regards, Greg 

At this point, you REALLY need to read more of the thread but here's another snippet:

"We offer incentives for early orders from the trade and if there is less than a 10% of the minimum factory order we will wait until there is."

Now, this last time I will give the thread url: *http://www.aristocraft.c...>*

But please remember this: I get accused of giving Aristo a bad name. But, read the forum and make your own decision.

I still cannot believe Aristo does not delete these damning posts, but I am NOT going to do the research any more. From now on, people who know I don't lie and always have facts to back up what I say will most likely take my word, or you can email me privately.

The others that think I'm a bad guy probably will never change their minds, and will keep making me prove things. Well, I don't really like pulling this stuff out, and also, I want it to stay on the Aristo site, not get deleted, so people can make up their OWN minds, and do their OWN research.

If you disagree with me, fine, don't take my word for it, do your own research, there is PLENTY of information out there.

Ed, I hope that maybe one day you will believe me and/or dig a little deeper on your own, this is really not any fun, I just want my trains!

(by the way, remember Phil? He's on that thread. He bought 2 chrome CB&Q E8's on the promise of his streamliners becoming available... you never hear from him anymore...)

OK, rant is over, and it's not all aimed at you Ed, it's just that your request brought some things to the surface, which have been bubbling for a while.

Regards, Greg *
*


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 26 Mar 2010 04:14 PM 

OK, it's just that your request brought some things to the surface, which have been bubbling for a while.

Regards, Greg 
*

That's what happens when you heat Kool-Aid.
Stuff comes bubbling to the surface.

*


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Thank you, Greg. As I said, I was not disagreeing with you at all. I had done a search (which I'm admittedly not excessively good at it) and hadn't been able to locate the thread(s). I know you do not normally make comments without having info to back them up, and I truly wanted to read the actual threads, and all that was said.

You answered me more than thoroughly, and I appreciate it. I am sorry that I got you agitated, and I agree it probably would have been better if I had sent you and email, and I apologize for that. I honestly hadn't thought of that. My oversight.

I do resent people speaking disparaging of those of us who buy Aristo products, accusing of us "drinking kool-aid" etc. (I am not referring to you) I will continue to purchase Aristo products as long as they provide me with the products I want, and as long as they perform they way I expect them. I do not talk disparagingly of those who have had bad luck with Aristo products, and I accept the fact that perhaps I have been unduly fortunate. But as Nick Savatgy says, we tend to purchase products from those manufacturers that each of us has had good luck with. And obviously our results are not the same!! That is what makes the competitive world successful!

Again, Thanks.
Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, and I will continue to buy Aristo products too. 

I have everything they sell in my era in locomotives, and will buy the new RDC and the Consolidation whatever year they appear. 

I just sometimes feel badly detailing all this stuff, I just want to make a point, not drill it into poor Lewis. 

But I do feel it's better newcomers have all the information they can get when entering the hobby, neither candy coated, nor total gloom and doom. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

It is not an Aristo speedo. It is a standard speedo modified by a person in Maryland! 
LAO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Larry! I just called it that because it had the logo on it. Is there a "Real" Aristo speedo? (heaven forbid ha ha!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, I don't know you will have to check the catalog. There are only 2 models left of the one I was issued.  

LAO


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo related is the 75th Anniversary of Polks Hobby , thats a long time to be selling toy trains , and they had cake to share at the ECLSTS







.


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

"Could be that they are just telling him what he wants to hear, laughing behind his back as he Makes the Latest announcement.... Maost Diabollical! "

That is protocol for ALL upper (and aspiring mid-level) crust management types (private or gov't) ! They say what they believe you wish to hear just to quiet ya down ! So regards Mr.Polk, he has just taken longer to accept the new norm' ! 


To fix a lot of this AristoCraft should follow the ideals of the other big manufacturers don't announce anything till the factory has started actual production. Whenever there is announcement (from any GR manufacturer) I always add a min. 6mon to stated ETA anyone that hasn't clued into doing similiar, is a sloooow learner. 



Kind of like the new (female) head of HLS babbling on that the terrorists of sept. 11th came from Canada ! . . . . slooooow and dangerous. 


IMHO,

doug c


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## ZachsPappaw (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dennis Paulson on 27 Mar 2010 08:06 AM 
Aristo related is the 75th Anniversary of Polks Hobby , thats a long time to be selling toy trains , and they had cake to share at the ECLSTS







. 


Cake and Koolaid!


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Cake and Koolaid!











Thats FUNNY


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dennis Paulson on 27 Mar 2010 05:19 PM 

Cake and Koolaid!











_Thats FUNNY














_






And why is that so funny?????


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It's never funny to those drinking the Kool-Aid, especially when it's pointed out that it IS Kool-Aid. 
Why do you ask?


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Why do I ask???

Jim Jones was a sick man who wanted to control the lives of other human beings and took pleasure in manipulating other people to the point of death. I see no connection or humor to Lewis Polk and Jim Jones. Granted drinking Kool Aid has become a figure of speach in our society, but it is a sick reference, and I don't understand why people take pleasure in using that when discussion of Lewis Polk and folks who frequent the Aristo forum. 

I look at the items that are available in Large Scale now compared to 15 years ago, and there is reason to celebrate. Lewis Polk and company was a large portion of that. So are USA, and many others. So let a company celebrate 75 years of success. They did not go banckrupt or ask for government bailouts. They have been successful. I don't see where celebrating 75 years of success and mixing it with Kool Aid is really funny. 

I participate in numerous other forums, especially in the running community. Those forums are so uplifting I can go there every day even during my darkest times and find encouragement. This forum used to be very positve, but I find it much more negative now than just a few years ago. I dropped my first class membership because I did not enjoy the focus on the negative aspects of the hobby. Sure there are problems in G Gauge equipment from all the makers. This forum seems to heavily focus on those negative aspects. 

I really don't want to start a whole long exchange on Kool Aid gang or positive and negative attitudes. I just want to share the joy of being in the garden with my trains, and get good advice when there are difficulties. I was there when the cake was on the table at York, and I applaud the man who keeps that business going. Does he have his faults? Absolutely. He is not Jim Jones. 

Tom


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Pied Piper? 
You ever actually READ some of the postings on the AC site? 
"...a sick man who wanted to control the lives of other human beings and took pleasure in manipulating other people ..." 

Hmm. 

Couldn't have said it better myself. 
Thanks! 

Oh, and nobody but you is mentioning Jimmy Jones, are they? 

It's the ATTITUDE. 
Someone tells you you have to buy their new stuff as the old stuff is not only out of production, but the new stuff is non-compatible..... 
How many times? 
"Here, have some Kool-Aid". 

The Polk Fawners believe it all....there is nothing wrong with the gauge....nothing wrong with the plating, nor the current, and all the sockets are wired exactly the same, and the add-on 27MC board for your 75MC receiver will be available shortly......and "expert modelers tell us it's just right", yet, here we are withe another re-do, and they fixed that "just right" bit. 
Yet, the followers swallow it all, hook, line and sinker. 

Just like Kool-Aid. 

Take your blinders off, and your rose coloured glasses, take a deep breath, and look around.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

This thread is funny to watch. Aristo has some of you so totally wrapped around their little finger, it's to the point of addiction.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Technically, the people at Jonestown died from poision in Flavor Aid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavor_Aid


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Which only goes to show folks have to be careful when they attach a certain name to Kool-Aid, right?


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's see now... 

The Polk family and Aristo-Craft have contributed significantly to this hobby in many ways over the years and their products have long been well accepted (and regularly used) in the Large Scale community. 

A few malcontents who presumably don't see much good in anything, let alone Aristo-Craft, spew their venom on pretty much a continual basis to the detriment of anyone who is determined to simply enjoy this hobby as a hobby. 

Who would you choose to follow?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Uh O, The Kool-Aid is strong inside of this one..........


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Funny. 
Point out facts, occurrences, specifics, even quote from their own site, and still the Kool-Aid merchants ply their trade. 
Even use the old "shoot the messenger" ploy used to good success to rally the troops around the banner all these years. 

Dang, Nick, do they actually believe the stuff they post?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This thread has a narrow focus, and for many people who did not read the first few posts, but come in at the end, it may not be clear. All that is being asked of Aristo is to be upfront about what is happening and not to make excuses that even they know are untrue. 

Looks like now the "kuppler" delay is blamed on the "factory bankruptcy", the NMRA, and patent issues (the patent is expired) with Kadee. Well of those 3 things, all excuses, none are true. 

That's the point. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ah. 
He's blaming Kevin, then?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No further info. Reading between the lines: 

1. Bankruptcy: for some reason, the sale of Sanda Kan to Kader about 2 years ago is now being called a bankruptcy by Aristo... 
2. NMRA: Probably trying to get some benefit from the recent attempt to look at standardizing couplers, complete red herring. 
3. Kadee: Patent expired on the HO stuff, but since they have been working on it for 2 years, why would the legal issues only come up now? 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Once he's publicized the "reasons", you can rest assured that the Polk Shill Brigade will be out in force parroting that exact information. 

They can't think for themselves as a general rule. 
Have to have the "Approved Polk Script" in front of them. 
Right?


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 28 Mar 2010 09:11 PM 
This thread has a narrow focus, and for many people who did not read the first few posts, but come in at the end, it may not be clear. All that is being asked of Aristo is to be upfront about what is happening and not to make excuses that even they know are untrue. 

Looks like now the "kuppler" delay is blamed on the "factory bankruptcy", the NMRA, and patent issues (the patent is expired) with Kadee. Well of those 3 things, all excuses, none are true. 

That's the point. 

Regards, Greg 

what kuppler delay ? I have them in the store for sale ...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

ReallY? You have the new Kupplers in stock? The aristo's that body mount? How much are they?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Another thread states the discontinuation of the long delayed AML GP60, in that they just come right out and say why "Due to the economy..." 

Part of the frustration with ACs long delayed items is that instead of just coming out and saying bluntly why an item has been delayed or dropped we get a string of various excuses that on examination often raise more questions than they answer. When it happens over a long period of time it eventually does play on their believability. 

Producing large scale items is an expensive business and were all grown ups here, I think most all of us could take the truth, be its the bad economy hitting the bottom line leaving less resources for investing in new items, or labor issues like the worker shortage in China, or lack of pre-orders on a proposed item. We can take it. 

Avoidiing all this drama must be why Bachmann holds all their new product development so close to the chest and doesnt announce anything until its 100% sure they are actually going into production.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

The new Kuppler(not the existing coupler) is not available as yet. You must be smoking some funny stuff they grow in NM. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

But aren't most rich men's hobbies (and those that support them) immune to the economy? That is what the car restorers are telling me at least, while the normal body repair men are squeaking by....


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny, I thought O Gauge was the Rich man's hobby.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Mark- Then you don't know anyone who has restored an old "E" type Jag.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Vsmith: This is what I have said all along. Be honest and folks will understand. Ha they just got to keep drinking the cool aid to believe. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 29 Mar 2010 02:30 PM 
Mark- Then you don't know anyone who has restored an old "E" type Jag. 



Yeah, those are costly too, my othodontist had one (drop top I may add) about 20 odd years ago. My last classic I sold 15 years ago required "oldtimer" Michelin metric tires...around $200 each when you can get them. Not the most expensive in the world, but yes for a hobby car. Brake pad sets were $100 plus...

Anyhow, somehow I missed this, a new direction for Aristo, "maybe" a Geman prototype in the works?

http://www.gartenbahnprofi.de/19580...#blogstart

So....add a V100, E 03, BR50, etc to the growning "to do" list?


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave,

I think that's my point exactly. This thread is essentially a bitching and moaning thread about a relatively inexepensive hobby and the availability of items for said hobby and the percieved 'truthfullness' of one manufacturer. it is like Marshmellow Fluff. Fun to enjoy, but of little substance or value. 

In other rich man hobbies, I almost bought a 1977 Porsche 911 at the neighborhood yardsale last year for a measly $11k. Almost pulled the trigger. I had a loan lined up, insurance ($10 a month!), and even approval from Mary Beth. But.... I'd have a hard time coming up with $11k a year to keep it going. Sure does make it easy to drop a few bucks on trains, though.

It is interesting that in such a tiny hobby that folks still feel the need to pit one against another. This guy buys that so he must be a this. Seriously, how old are we? What good does that do? It sure does not make this place (mylargescale.com) what it once was, that's for sure.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Some people just seem to keep putting the "target" tee-shirts on, no matter how many times others talk them into taking them off. 

It's truthfulness, Mark, no matter if we are discussing marbles or millions. 

Best thing, really, would be to take his keyboard away from him. 
Or change the passwords to the website. 

Look at the data presented here. 
Don't bring the Kool-Aid packets out. 
There is plenty already mixed and ready to go.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 30 Mar 2010 10:32 AM 
It is interesting that in such a tiny hobby that folks still feel the need to pit one against another. This guy buys that so he must be a this. Seriously, how old are we? What good does that do? It sure does not make this place (mylargescale.com) what it once was, that's for sure. 


Hi Mark,

Its a bit harder to kick a dead horse so that leaves Kalamazoo, Delton and even LGB somewhat beyond trashing. Even a live horse can be kicked to death.

What amazes me about not only this thread but forums in general is the amount of venom freely thrown around at both manufacturers and even at fellow forum members.

Common courtesy and respect seems to have disappeared both for fellow forum members and for individuals who work for or own companies who manufacture products for this hobby.

What right does anyone claim to have to justify their attacks on fellow forum members?

Everyone has a right to make up their own mind about the availability and quality of products from any company and to voice their experiences and opinions good or bad about specific products without being attacked by a few very vocal individuals who happen to have a different opinion about a company.

I seem to recall that MLS has over 6,000 members. That means that any one individual's opinion represents the thoughts of 1/6,000 of the membership of MLS - no more and no less.

This hobby is about having fun with toy trains. If someone dislikes a company or an individual with a company or the products from a company the chances are that the company in question has at least as many customers as MLS has members so an unhappy customer represents at best 1/6,000 of the opinion of all customers who buy that company's products.

A company that fails to make a profit or that continues to disappoint their customers soon goes out of business and when that happens ALL the previous customers of that company suffer because suddenly tech support, parts and new compatible products just go away.

Aristo-Craft is far from perfect. I have had some lemons from them and I have had lemons from other companies. If a lemon stopped me from buying products from a company I would have run out of companies to buy from many years ago.

Whatever their problems may be, I like the Revolution. I like the E-8's. I've had 10+ years of good running from my FA-1/FB-1's along with their Aristo-PH Hobbies sound systems. The Train Engineers worked well and still do. 

I'm willing to put up with some problems with Aristo-Craft and I will continue to buy new products from them because I want them to stay in business just as I want their customer service and parts departments to stay in business. LGB went away and so did LGB of America so now LGB customer service and parts have become much more of a challenge. 

Constant negativity can harm not only manufacturers but also can harm MLS. Who wants to read forums full of negative stuff about manufacturers and read negative attacks on fellow members? 

There have been as many negative comments about fellow MLS members on this topic as there have been about Aristo-Craft.

Perhaps some thought needs to be given to what is good for MLS and good for the Hobby rather than some folks just telling everyone how mad they happen to be about whatever they happen to be mad about and attacking everyone who happens to have a different opinion about something.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, as a person recently personally attacked in another thread, of course I'm not liking personal attacks. I completely agree Jerry. Unfortunately, sometimes when someone cannot bring facts to bear to support their opinion, they resort to name calling. I'm not pointing at anyone in this thread, I'm more thinking of another thread where I and several others have been called liars literally and that everything I post is BS, etc. etc. 

But there is also a reason for this thread, which seems to get constantly derailed a bit, it's about honesty to your customers. There's plenty of truth to go around about what has delayed a promised product. Notice I say "promised", in that someone said in December 2009 "the PCC car will be here in January"... that means it had to have been manufactured and ready to ship from China. Then the date slips to "May or June".... 

We all plan and budget our purchases, and this was a blatant example of not being upfront and honest. This thread is narrowly focused on asking that this kind of situation stop. It's our right to contrast manufacturers treatment of us, the customer. 

We vote with our wallets. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Greg,

I never have a problem when someone quotes specific facts about products or promised deliveries. My real problem is when MLSers get disrespectful of other MLSers (especially when someone would call someone else a liar). 

As a retired sales representative I am all too familiar with manufacturers making claims of expected or promised delivery dates. Many times it is a case of marketing wanting to get customers to put off buying a competitive product until their product becomes available and often it is just because something unanticipated came up that delayed production. I was often put in the position of promoting products that did not make projected delivery dates.

How many of us LGB fans would have been happier if LGB had put off the introduction of their Mikado - until the drive units were better designed? LGB unfortunately rushed into production and paid the price in both customer dissatisfaction and lost business.

Many many years ago a company I worked for ran into unexpected competition from a new HUGE competitor and rushed a new product into production that was the WORST product we ever had and almost destroyed the company. Eventually that too turned into a very good product.

Perhaps it is because of my sales background but I NEVER believe ANY manufacturer when they promise a delivery date.

I guess my take on this topic is that the one message that comes through is not to put any faith in promised delivery dates - from any manufacturer. 

As the saying goes, you can tell when a salesman (marketing) is lying - their lips are moving. I would never lie to a customer about what a product could do but sometimes my job demanded that I tell customers what I knew to be a very optimistic delivery date.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, it's one thing to stretch the truth, and another altogether to outright lie or feed out blatant disinformation hoping nobody will catch it. 
It's in all our best interests to keep the manufacturers honest when they try it on. 
From what I've read on MLS lately, that's exactly what's been happening so I think the 'feedback loop' is working OK, even if it does appear overly negative at first glance. 

One thing I have noticed over the last couple of years is that there seems to be an ever increasing number of what I will call vested interest groups on MLS, so there seems to be this constant push-pull back and forth between them all, which also tends to create a negative atmosphere. 

Keith


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 30 Mar 2010 03:57 PM 
One thing I have noticed over the last couple of years is that there seems to be an ever increasing number of what I will call vested interest groups on MLS, so there seems to be this constant push-pull back and forth between them all, which also tends to create a negative atmosphere. 

Keith 

Hi Keith,

I agree. A person can be positive about the attributes of a product or brand without being negative about the similar features of a different brand. This is not unique to any brand or group. Many brands have strong fan supporters and some MLSers are involved in a commercial business but everyone should respect everyone else's person and feelings. 

Some people like apples while others like oranges but that does not make apples good (right) or oranges bad (wrong). 

Most of us remember and agree with the saying "its your railroad so anything you choose to do with it is OK."

Above all we should respect the right of fellow members to express different opinions or viewpoints without becoming disrespectful of those members.

As you said, there are some "vested interest groups on MLS" and readers should bear that in mind when reading posts.

For the hobby (and MLS) to succeed we need to be mutually supportive and get away from any sort of "I'm right and everyone/everything else is wrong" attitude. We should enjoy and appreciate our differences rather than use them to divide us.

Jerry


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

10-4!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Papa bear just wants to be everybody's friend, perhaps a twist here and an inferrance there and Whammo just like Teflon the blame slips off. Could be a character defect, I've got some... 

I could understand the afronts being taken, if, we were in a stable and growing economy. But we are not and some contractions are still a fact of life. 

So as The Company tries to plan ahead for growth and then later needs to adjust for more outlay than incoming, another promise get's broken, not because PapaBear wants to disapoint, but because he's tightening his belt another notch. 

Something I'm getting too good at myself... 

I doubt if he can renegotiate his labor contracts... No matter what the spin ... It's the economy. 

Finnally way back when I posted erlier, I came up with a Damn good pun and nobody chuckled! Methinks too many are enjoying being let down again! 

When I got into G $cale and I went looking for something, I'd get a smile and a 'that's the way it is'. It was accepted. 

Chinese revisionist contracts... Maoist Diabolical! 

John


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

To all, the bottom line is being truthful that's what this thread has been about. If you can not tell the truth then back off and not say anything and your better off or say what the real problems is. Some folks have missed the jest of this thread and post with no merit. Bottom line is tell the truth and be done. No problems there. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Jerry- 
Since you stopped being an avid lgb supporter, you have become an avid AC supporter. 
Your posts are not making any sense. 
I have no idea what your "vested interests" comment is all about, other than being designed to be inflammatory, and, in typical AC fashion, to divert attention from the issue at hand. 
It didn't work too well when you were promoting lgb, and all the others who tried to divert attention and other screaming tactics. 

This is not much different. 

Who else makes locomotives and rolling stock that is in this thread? 
NObody. 
The question was about mis-truths, and made-up reasons, that's all. 
Read into it what you want, try your diversionary tactics, just don't be surprised if you find Kool-Aid stains on your bib. 

Do you actually read what you write? 

 Who else makes a track and wheel gauge that matches neither in what they make? 
Who else makes a 3-axle power block that takes about 2 to 2-1/2 hours each block to fix the gauge? 
Who else has motor polarity that is "you guess"? 

Maybe I have a vested interest, as I am the one who has to break the news to customers. 

I know a guy who to get his AC turnouts to work, cuts the guard rails off and spikes in new ones that are gauged correctly. 

There is no reason for this. 
None. 

But, it continues because nobody close will spill the beans......... 

I give up. 
You get attached to some cause, no amount of factual data presented will get through to you. 

And, no, I am not calling you names. 
Geez.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 30 Mar 2010 08:07 PM 
Jerry- 
Since you stopped being an avid lgb supporter, you have become an avid AC supporter. 
Your posts are not making any sense. 

Hi Dave,

I was going to respond but then I happened to read an email from someone (I have no idea what his real name is but that is immaterial). 

His email to me is far better than anything I might have come up with:

I recently joined a local club, going to my first meeting soon. I hope above hope the members of the club are more respectful to others then a vocal minority here. I know of no one who personally operates model trains...I hoped to learn more from the online forums but find both major forums full of bile towards almost everyone and everything. Terms like "Polky Boy", "Red Box Brigade", "Kool-aid Drinker", "Charlie Boy", "Aristo-Crap", "Botchmann", etc. No respect, not even a basic level of concern for others. Apparently this is a desired trait on model railroad forums.

Thanks for saying what I wouldn't. Commenting on the forum would just have me labeled as a "Kool-Aide" drinker. Not worth the effort.

I "left", came back to find things pretty much the same. No respect. My 1/6000th opinion...ain't worth much, but there it is.

Thanks again for trying to bring a level of "moderation" to the forum, might turn in to soething worthwile yet![/b]

For the record I am still an avid LGB supporter. I am also an avid AC supporter. I also support Bachmann and USAT and Hartman and and and...

I am not blind to their faults and I have enough of their products (all brands) that I could write far more negative things about them than you do but there is so much negativism that I avoid posting information about faults I know about because that would be used as fuel to further someone else's flames.

My point is/was that it is NOT about avoiding telling the truth at all...

It is about respecting fellow members AND respecting the manufacturers who make the products we want to buy. No manufacturer is going to listen to people who hate their company and or products but they will probably listen to complaints from those who continue to buy their products.

Facts can be clearly defined without being turned into an attack.

Its all about respect - and attitude.

You are a very smart guy. I know that you know this.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry and all, the bottom line is the truth which AC tends to deny is which it's all about. Till you folks quite being in denial and giving them the breaks your the cool aid drinkers. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Boy, you'd have a real problem with General Misunderstanding....or Final Italian Attempt at Technology.....I won't tell you what Pontiac stands for.....or Gotta Mechanic Coming. 

It's when one ignores the facts, the stuff that is even printed by the manufacturer of all things, and decide on one's own, with one's own "facts", and ignores the rest, THAT is a Kool-Aid drinker, Jerry. 

And, trust me, there are a whole lotta folks passing Kool-Aid out. 

"Design Criteria" is usually a harbinger of Kool-Aid to come. 
Another good one is "Expert Modelers looked at it and said it was Just Right".


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Right on Curmudgeon: Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great news from Aristo. Today Lewis posted:

"The factory’s problems along with a rough economic picture has made the past few years most difficult and we are striving to get back on schedule.The new items will get here and there will be no more answers from us until the announcement that they have been shipped."

I personally appreciate the last sentence. That's great news, and in my opinion a wise move.

And in reference to the changes from the purchase of Sanda Kan by Kader, Lewis states:

"I apologize for the delays, but we’re quite happy still to have a competent maker with a normalcy of production after suffering several years of deteriorating quality and output.


That's a great statement, it admits the problems we have seen with quality, and an optimistic look at new production.

I'm looking forward to purchasing the new RDC and the Consolidation.

Thank you Lewis for the frank speaking on the situation, and the acknowledgment of the situation. 


Regards, Greg 


p.s. I'm not being sarcastic, let's give Aristo the benefit of the doubt here, and the opportunity to change and improve.


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## jlcop (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry; 
You talk about respect! Aristocraft has a problem with the truth. That is not respectfull. I have personally been lied to by Aristocraft. It was mean spirited,demeaning, malicious, totaly un-necessisary and un-provoked. A good mutual friend of TOC's and mine told us how he was lied to by Lewis Polk himself. I think that explains a lot about their corperate philosophy. Other people in this forum have had similar experiences. People don't like being lied to! They get angry and they say or write angry things. You are right it is about respect and attitude. 
John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

or Final Italian Attempt at Technology..... 

mine was a' Fix It Again Tony..... but fun


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if that is cock eyed optimism? From a cock eyed optimist. 
Smoke and mirrors m'lads. Smoke and mirrors.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

You can be 100% certain that when you see someone accusing others of being "Kool-Aid drinkers" that the individual making the accusation is insecure about the validity of his own position. You'll see this time and time again on Internet discussion groups as they slowly (and sadly) evolve into being inhabited by mean-spirited types who have only their self-interest at heart. The term "Kool-Aid" is invariably the signal to watch for as a prelude to the snake venom that follows.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I had decided not to comment further but then another email arrived:

Good evening Jerry!

Someone brought to my attention the recent thread in the Public Forum on MLS. I see nothig has changed since I left last year.

You are wasting your time trying to reason with *****************. They are the reason that many people, myself included, have left MLS. We just got tired of the constant trash talking of the manufacturers, and rude and agressive way they swarm anyone who dares to disagree with them.

At one time MLS was a friendly and positive place to exchange information on the large scale hobby. That has changed! You have to accept that and move on. 

Many of us have.

Spare yourself the aggrevation of dealing with these people, they will never change their hateful ways.[/b]


It is not Aristo-Craft that is causing members to leave MLS.

Jerry

ps If I do not respond further it is because there is little for me to add to what both a new member and an old member have said.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Mar 2010 08:25 PM 


Thank you Lewis for the frank speaking on the situation, and the acknowledgment of the situation. 


Regards, Greg 





Thanks for posting that Greg, this is the basic issue here, just tell us the truth, let us know whats happening and we'll all adjust to it. I hope this helps alleviate the anxiety levels around here, of course we'll have to wait and see if any change actually occurs. I'm waiting for the next generation of Eggliners to arrive so I can pick up a SF Warbonnet version so I have an interest in this story also.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 01 Apr 2010 06:35 AM 
I had decided not to comment further but then another email arrived:

Good evening Jerry!

Someone brought to my attention the recent thread in the Public Forum on MLS. I see nothig has changed since I left last year.

You are wasting your time trying to reason with *****************. They are the reason that many people, myself included, have left MLS. We just got tired of the constant trash talking of the manufacturers, and rude and agressive way they swarm anyone who dares to disagree with them.

At one time MLS was a friendly and positive place to exchange information on the large scale hobby. That has changed! You have to accept that and move on. 

Many of us have.

Spare yourself the aggrevation of dealing with these people, they will never change their hateful ways.[/b]


It is not Aristo-Craft that is causing members to leave MLS.

Jerry

ps If I do not respond further it is because there is little for me to add to what both a new member and an old member have said.


I wasnt going to say anything but geez I have to clear the decks on this. 

Lets be clear, there are no "haters" here, *but there are alot of skeptics*. 

I am one of them, becasue we've been down the garden path before with manufacturers telling us one thing when the truth was somewhere left of that, Aristos Mike loose wheel blocks, Bachmanns Connie gearbox and the K's counterweights, etc, but to me the biggest cause of this engrained skepticism was the amazing events that occurred before and after EPL did the Big Hindenburg, you of all people should be aware of that as you were in the thick of it. Remember where any discussion of the subject by people who just wanted to know the truth about what was going on was met with vitriolic attacks from those who couldnt accept the reality of what was happening to EPL, even after it was clear to a blind man that EPL was going to fold they continued 
to deny deny deny, attack attack attack, wait till "next week" and yet here we are, years after this angry debacle still dealing with the ripple effects that angry diatribe had on all the forums, and for all the vitriol about "wait and see" what we see today is that the San Diego company is no longer associated with either LGB/ Marklin or Piko, LGB future is still in debate and could very easily end up under Chinese control (Kader). All that vitriol added up to what? a big goose egg, *nothing*. 

They couldnt change the reality of the situation by squashing any discussion, the reality still happened. 

Now here we are again, with someone here just trying to get a straight answer once again from a manufacturer and once again the problem isnt those asking the questions simply about "whats happening?", its the responces from those who get angry at anyone who dares to question the authority of the manufacturers? Same scenario, different manufacturer. The skeptics question and that questioning is being reacted to as if the questioning itself is hereasy against the church... and you wonder why references like "kool aid drinkers" are being used?


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Amen! It is a wonderful thing we have a PUBLIC forum here to express ourselves. I have to admit, I have never had any problems with any Aristocraft product-EVER. So, it may be an anomaly, but it's true. But I really like the idea that people can talk about (and most importantly) try to resolve whatever problems/issues arise without fear of reprisal. Wouldn't that be novel? I dared to contribute over at the Aristo site and the thread got locked down. Lewis said himself free speech was fine elsewhere but not on his forum. read for yourself under thread "deliveries".


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

This post is so fun to read.

But we really need to lay off poor old Kool-Aid. 


I understand why the term is used (Jonestown). But the proper term should really be Flavor-Aid Drinker. That cheap off brand rip off is what they mixed in with the poison at Jonestown.

And, unlike some other company, Kool-Aid met their latest new product delivery with Fun Fizz. I tried some out last night.


So yes, I am a very proud Kool-Aid drinker





















I also think Curmudgeon is a closet Kool-Aid drinker. Just look at his Avatar. Reminds me of the infamous Kool-Aid flavor Purplesaurus Rex. 


What do you think:













Now that I've had some fun, the fact that Aristo is way late on new product deliveries and then lists some lame excuses is no surprise to me. When it happens again I still will not be surprised.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, all things considered, I think we've just about covered it all! I am going to do as Greg suggests and adopt a "wait and see" attitude toward Aristocraft. Their willingness to admit problems and to try to give a more accurate "spin" on their current situation should be encouraged. Whereas I don't usually get so worked up as to describe others by descriptions such as "Kool Aid Drinkers," I would like everyone to consider the observation that Lewis and Aristocraft probably_ wouldn't_ have made their concession (or would that be _confession_?) towards reality if not for the controversy sparked, in part, because of the openness of this forum and the fact that we as MLS members are allowed to question, criticise and hold the manufacturers acountable for the accuracy of what they say! 

Personal attacks don't solve anything and only make matters worse! I have noted that Greg and a few noteworthy others have tried to point out "inconsistencies" and "questionable" comments made by Aristocraft representatives only to have themselves banned from it's forum and their questions ignored. MLS is a wonderful forum for exchanging ideas and for encouraging the hobby but one of it's other strengths is that it provides a neutral ground whereby diverging viewpoints can be given proper consideration! It's a valuable resource and should be seen as such with the caveat that everyone brings an agenda to the table. Take what you want and disregard the rest! Getting your blood pressure raised and trying to "one-up" the other guy doesn't really solve anything! Now don't get me wrong! I'm as sick of Kum-ba-yah as the next guy and I _love_ spirited discussion! It's just that personal attacks aren't interesting, contribute nothing to the discussion and don't "win" the argument! (Here endeth the sermon...)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The Tyrannosaurus Rex in my avatar is based upon one promoter of the Ames Super Socket referring to me as a "dinosaur", except he spelled it wrong. 
If I could, I would have changed that avatar to show an Ames Super Socket in it's mouth.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I also think Curmudgeon is a closet Kool-Aid drinker. Just look at his Avatar. Reminds me of the infamous Kool-Aid flavor Purplesaurus Rex. 


What do you think: 




Well he's definitely "unsweetened".


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Unsweetened, cigar-chomping, pistol-packin', Super Socket yanking, curmudgeon. 
That be me.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup, a regular Black Jacque Shellac of the South. LOL


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 01 Apr 2010 12:34 PM 
The Tyrannosaurus Rex in my avatar is based upon one promoter of the Ames Super Socket referring to me as a "dinosaur", except he spelled it wrong. 

Funny. Especially since it was spelled wrong


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I also think Curmudgeon is a closet Kool-Aid drinker. Just look at his Avatar. Reminds me of the infamous Kool-Aid flavor Purplesaurus Rex. I thought it was supposed to be Barney.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought it was supposed to br Barney. 

That would sure explain his propensity to "Rip and Tear".









Keith


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Apr 2010 02:18 PM 
I also think Curmudgeon is a closet Kool-Aid drinker. Just look at his Avatar. Reminds me of the infamous Kool-Aid flavor Purplesaurus Rex. I thought it was supposed to br Barney. 




















Barney is a meat eater


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By San Juan on 01 Apr 2010 11:38 AM 
This post is so fun to read.

But we really need to lay off poor old Kool-Aid.











I think its almost run its course.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Nice of you to bring the PRC into it. 
J. Edgar would have been proud.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the post Greg, now it's a wait and see if he does what he has said. If he does then it's good. All we could ask for was the truth. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

And twice now about Flavor Aid and Jonestown. This thread has everything!


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 01 Apr 2010 02:55 PM 
And twice now about Flavor Aid and Jonestown. This thread has everything! Now everything, including the kitchen sink:


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I gotta search you-tube for somebody puking. 
Then we'll have it all.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Now it has everything, You guys didnt know that UPS delivers Kool-Aid did you?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll drink some of that! (Can I say that?)


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)




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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I gotta search you-tube for somebody puking. 
Then we'll have it all.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess not all Aristo employees are on the same page (yet) 

From Michael J (Aristo employee on the Aristo site) 

"New (2010) Production Gondolas (open top) - all new artwork 
Delivery date May 4, 2010." 

Guess it will take a while to filter down, unless they are REALLY shipping right now.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Apr 2010 08:08 PM 
I guess not all Aristo employees are on the same page (yet) 

From Michael J (Aristo employee on the Aristo site) 

"New (2010) Production Gondolas (open top) - all new artwork 
Delivery date May 4, 2010." 

Guess it will take a while to filter down, unless they are REALLY shipping right now.. 

Regards, Greg 










No, they are in the container, nothing to worry about....what's that....ah, May of WHAT year?


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Apr 2010 07:36 PM 
I gotta search you-tube for somebody puking. 
Then we'll have it all.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 01 Apr 2010 08:23 PM 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Apr 2010 07:36 PM 
I gotta search you-tube for somebody puking. 
Then we'll have it all.



















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK6...re=related

Watch at your own risk, dont say I didnt warn ya


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 01 Apr 2010 09:40 PM 
Posted By xo18thfa on 01 Apr 2010 08:23 PM 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Apr 2010 07:36 PM 
I gotta search you-tube for somebody puking. 
Then we'll have it all.



















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK6...re=related

Watch at your own risk, dont say I didnt warn ya

Reminds me of a contest my buddies and I had in college. How could go the longest on popcorn and root beer.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 29 Mar 2010 08:36 AM 
The new Kuppler(not the existing coupler) is not available as yet. You must be smoking some funny stuff they grow in NM. Later RJD 
WHAT!!!!!!!! How dare you say something like this to me .... these where taken today they have been in the store for a while there is 6 pair at 10 a pair and this stuff is why I have just about stoped posting


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)




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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

That's really, really bad. 
Shows the head of the company doesn't even know what's going on. 
If the "kupplers" are delayed, how did they get shipped? 

Boy.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Doing biz in China comes with a built in handicap. 
While the labor is cheap, neither the country nor the business mindset are open. Must be mind boggling to think you have your quality set and find out from your customers that the plastic is bad or whatever has been documented here... 
We expect a US style business and instead they are more of a middleman to Communist capitalists... now there's a concept! 

There may have been a test run of 200-500 prior to a major production run to test the line. Although that pre run was shipped, not enough were made to open the product line and announce them. 

Crackerjacks got the prize and I suspect are raising glasses of ..... and toasting all y'all


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That is bad--according to the aristo site the couplers are not out yet--so what do you have? I guess it's a pre-production run?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Must be as several folks where given test coupler to try. Of course the name does not imply Kupplers. Later RJD


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, there's new design couplers from Aristocraft out there. Perhaps it's in limited quantity and it's not labeled "Kuppler" (geez! that makes it sound like it was from EPL!) but it does have a part #. Does this part # match what the "Kuppler" is supposed to be? If so, apologies are in order. You're _both_ right and wrong! Can we_ please_ move on with this? How about something interesting like......hey, if that's it, how does it compare? What have you found out? Is it really that much better or is it a "boondoggle?" Obviously, this appears to be an early "test run" so let's do what MLS is particularly good at_ and get the inside scoop early on this new product from someone_ _that has had actual experience with it!_ (So much more interesting than the one-upsmanship...)


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 02 Apr 2010 05:44 AM 
Must be as several folks where given test coupler to try. Of course the name does not imply Kupplers. Later RJD 

these where not given to us they came in with the stanard shipment and we paid for them and the number is right but I did note the name .... but what is it you are trying to say ?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,
Have you opened them and tried them? I'd be very interested in your comments!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo has told several people about the problems delaying the Kuppler. If you went to the Aristo forum and say you have "bags of Kupplers" on your hooks, you would be inundated with orders. 

Very strange, although it is clear it is not in the normal packaging, with the yellow aristo logo on cardboard hanger top, just like the other Aristo product in your picture at lower right. 

So great, somehow you are one of the few retailers that has some (really the only one I have heard of). 

I'll take them. Are they $10 a pair? Can I order online? 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

All Aristocraft dealers were sent 6 PR to have a look at and of course they were charged for them, They can sell them or demo what ever they wish but i dont beleive you will see anymore till the end of the year if your lucky. and Scott, I dont think anyone was trying to say anything other than they were just surprised to see them as the Polkyman said they wouldnt be out till the end of the year.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

no I have not tryed them been playing with the AMS couplers 

anyone that wants them can call us we are open 10 to 6 tue thu sat MST 1-800-981-2322 I have 6 pair at $ 10.00 a pair + shipping 

DID NOT know I was the only one to have these 


cartoon below is from railroad modler 1950 in 60 years nothing has changed and it will not becouse the co. building the model is the one risking the money and most do not take this risk lightly or they do not last long


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Yep, them's the ones. 

I haven't installed them on anything beyond a test flat car to see how they work with other couplers, but initially, I'm impressed. I got some of the aforementioned "test samples" as part of coupler proposal I was involved with. (Mod note: we are _not_ discussing said proposal. Got it?) 

Size-wise, it's about the same size as the Kadee G-scale coupler. The only 2 knuckle couplers I have in my workshop that it did _not_ couple well with were the AMS 1:32 coupler (it will stay coupled if the 1:32 coupler is lifted up and over, but it sits a bit askew) and the stock Aristo coupler. (It will couple only if the stock coupler is open and the new one is closed. The "shelf" on both couplers keeps you from lifting one over the other.) I do not have the AMS 1:29, LGB, or MTH couplers, though others report that they work well. They work well with the Kadee G-scale, Kadee #1 scale, AMS 1:20, Bachmann (Delton/Lionel) and USA Trains couplers I have here--_when mounted at the same height._ 

My biggest concern with them is the mount. They're held in place by two screws along the back edge of the coupler assembly, which as you can see from Scott's photo, is about 2" back from the coupler face. Even with that firmly mounted in place, the coupler face has around 3/16" of vertical play. I suppose that's partly why the "shelf" is there; to keep them from lifting over one another. I would be tempted when mounting them to put some kind of lower retainer (a wire bracket or something) to keep them from drooping down too much. It may not prove to be an issue in "the real world," but that's how I'd "head it off at the pass" so to speak. 

I have not run them in a train or "everyday" use. My observations to this point have been limited to how well it interfaces with other couplers. 

Later, 

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

cartoon below is from railroad modler 1950 in 60 years nothing has changed I remember that cartoon.







Since 1950 is before even my time, they must have reprinted it at some point.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just called Scott and got 2 bags (4 total), I'm having them shipped to the testing lab. 

We'll have a report soon. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Cool!! Another 200+ posts.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Your experience is most interesting, Kevin. I have tried some on my battery cars. Since they are coupled to my engines, I wanted to try the body mounted kupplers, and I found that as long as they were lined up vertically, they couple to the truck mounted "classic" Ariso couplers just fine. My only concern was that I didn't see a ready way to mount them on a hopper car, for instance, but I was assured that adapter plates would be forth coming. Since all of my cars are equipped with Aristo couplers, they were the only ones I was able to compare the new kupplers with.

Your experience with other couplers is most interesting, and I'm curious as to what Greg E. finds as he tries them too.

Ed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Just to clarify, the old and new Aristo couplers do couple and stay coupled, but only if the new jaw is already closed. The old coupler (at least in my tests) does not close the new knuckle enough to where the pin drops. The new coupler does close the old one enough to latch it. 

Later, 

K


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy little did I know that this thread would generate this much interest. Woe over 200 post and over 11,000 hits. This should tell folks something. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, RJ is the first testing lab! They are going Fed Ex to his house first, so he can work them over on Aristo cars and with "standard" Aristo couplers. 

Then I may ask him to ship a couple back to me to test with other couplers, Kadees first. 

Regards, Greg


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy, this coupler thing caught you guys with your pants on the floor. Kind of makes you wonder where all your "pre-order deposit" money went.

This really high drama.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 02 Apr 2010 02:32 PM 
Cool!! Another 200+ posts.


















Dwight: We've been hanging around narrow gauge live steam too much. This is where all the action is.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

You just wait. 
Stanley will develop an nmra-standard socket for live steam before he's through, and KEBT will go after couplers for live steam. 

Once they're done screrXing up electric, the "new frontier" will be live steam.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Well, like I said, RJ & Greg. I'll be anxious to hear how they work for you. I've been running them behind my engines for several months now and have been quite happy with them. Today I'm going to try to take the time to try Kevin's approach and see how I like them keeping the kuppler closed, when I couple them up to the old style Aristo couplers.

Ed


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

I received 3 sets of the couplers. I tried the with the other brands and they did hook up Ok. I beleive they where sent free of charge to test. I've had them for a few months now. I didn't really think about it, to mention them. I figured they would soon be in stock since they had sent them the dealers. The couplers look alot like the new E style coupler by Kadee.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Gee Rob you could had said something and I sure would have bought them to try. Man all this secret stuff. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Interesting documentation and time line on some of this I discovered: 

http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/new-product-qwatchq-list


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a time before I took up my indoor layout that I was very interested in ACs Connie, but after waiting over 4 years and no cigar, or large layout, I am so past caring whether or not it ever see's the light of day anymore. Even if it ever does get made, it will like the Bmann Forney end up so freaking expensive as to be beyond my reach anyways...as it is, based on what few new releases there have been the last couple years, I'm being priced out of this hobby anyhow, what a world, good thing I already built up a large roster before prices went loony.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I found that when coupling the new Aristo kuppler with a "classic" Aristo truck mounted coupler, they couple together either way on my cars; either with both couplers open, or with the kuppler closed, and the "classic" coupler open as Kevin found worked for him. In both cases, however, I found that the couplers had to be well aligned vertically.

I think it was Kevin, or someone, that mentioned the mounting at the rear of the kuppler, and concern about its ruggedness or stability. I can only say that my kupplers have been connected to my locomotives, which I believe put more of a stress on them than other combinations, and I've had absolutely no problems with them holding up and staying connected. I confess though, I have not tested them with "long" freight trains. My max is about 20 to maybe 25 cars on occasion.

Ed


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ed. Much appreciated!


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 04 Apr 2010 05:42 AM 
{snip}I can only say that my kupplers have been connected to my locomotives, which I believe put more of a stress on them than other combinations, and I've had absolutely no problems with them holding up and staying connected. I confess though, I have not tested them with "long" freight trains. My max is about 20 to maybe 25 cars on occasion.

Ed
Like you Ed, I've used them on 25 car long trains mixed in with LGB, USA, Aristo, Bachmann knuckles as well as Kadee's without incident. They just pulled nicely. Just recently upgraded a string of 10 Bachmann special train flatcars with them and they do very well coupled to themselves or with other knuckles.

Trains longer than 25 cars really don't look right running on my layout.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I was very interested in ACs Connie 
There was a grey one - looked like a prototype - on Aristo's stand at ECLSTS. Didn't anyone post a photo of it?


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 03 Apr 2010 07:11 PM 
Interesting documentation and time line on some of this I discovered: 

http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/new-product-qwatchq-list 
Hehe! That's unbelievable. I would surmise that if a person is 30 years old today and places his RR equipment orders right away he just might have everything he needs by the time he retires.
Is that what's meant by retirement planning? 


Forget it for us old dogs. I'm just glad I've got most of what I'll need for the foreseeable future.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Ed you have been holding out on us and not telling us you had the new kupplers. Shame on you. And I though you were my bud. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yours will arrive in a day or two RJ, you just have to be patient! 

I think we should start a new thread, on people's experiences. 

At one time Lewis stated the possibility that it could become a new standard. 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Update: 

(I don't want to start another round of stuff, but just "keeping them honest") 

Lewis announced a couple of days ago that the RDC will be out by summer. So much for only announcing products when they are ready to ship. 

Summer ends September 21st this year. 

Funny, the PCC car was supposed to come first. No new dates for it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Keep promising, keep the "faithful" from spending money elsewhere. 
You've read the minions pronouce on that site "oh, I'll wait for yours!" so it's all PolkMarketing101.


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## peteshoulders (Apr 10, 2010)

You think its bad in your continent we got at least 18 months extra in the UK, in fact we get secondhand gear from the US sooner than we get new. gear from 04/06 is now starting to be common, I got a reefer from a local dealer last month , was listed new 2007,


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well according to my calendar summer ends Sept 22 and Autumn starts Sept 23. Now is the PCC car going to arrive before or after the RDC car. Apparently Lewis has broken silence and has promised this before the PCC. What comes first the chicken or the egg (liner) Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right RJ, I shorted Lewis by one day... I swear it was unintentional. 

Re: chicken and egg: I'm sure the Aristonauts will be clucking over my comments on their site! 

ha ha ha cluck ha ha ha.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The Autumnal Equinox (exact last instant of Summer and exact first instant of Fall) takes place Sept. 22, 2010 at 20h09m01s PDT - if anyone wants to get technical.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

We where just tying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Later RJD


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I've said it before and I guess it bears saying it again. 

I'll believe it when I see it. 

Dates given are projections and Pie in the Sky! Based on the previous 'evidence' it was very clear that all dates and targets have been missed. So why would this be different? Or is this about something else?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

And I was just trying to be funny.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't believe he specified summer of 2010 or 2011 or????????????.







Later RJD


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

All right RJ! You found the loophole!!


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## peteshoulders (Apr 10, 2010)

_*Best would be ask and get deposits,*_

_*or is that too simplistic,*_

I_* sell tractors from China, I tell my customers order but wait six weeks, they do or dont, no-one gets fed up, the cards are on the table, likes of Aster can gamble on minimum orders of ? they can deliver, in a time frame, the price Polks do are at a premium, so high volume is a must, *_

_*Just be straight, and the loyalty will stay and even grow, there are lots of big volume items not even being considered, ie a Bethgon, and dare I say it stop making the worlds longest biggest with the most wheels and bits added, and make a maid of all work like a little six coupled swithcer that looks like a six coupled switcher, and not some obscure one loco line that was about for two years and got buried in a swamp*_


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Friday, May 21, 2010

Gentlemen:

1) Mr Curmudgen and the retired LGB moderator:

Your wives are going to suspect that you have a "thing" for each other if you continue the mutual verbal bashing between yourselves!
I think that you are embarassing yourselves. But at least you are entertaining everyone.

2) Greg:

I periodically speak with Lewis by telephone simply as a friend.
My only interest in the Aristo product line is the Delton Aristo Classics and the heavyweight passenger cars.

My attitude is the hobby is fortunate that Lewis bought the Delton molds as this ensured that the C-16 product continued to be made.
Who wants to manage a firm producing a discretionary product in this extremely fragile economy? 
As anticipated sales fail to materialise, then production plans must change. 
At least Lewis is accessable to his customers.
What other large scale manufacturer is as accessable?

Train World recently sent a subscriber email reminder of their three previous G clearance sales. 
The clearance product priced even at extremely low pricing did not sell. Train Work never did that before. 
This G stuff just isn't selling right now. 

Hence, Aristo Craft and Bachmann have entered the O Guage market.

3) Pricing:

I bought what I wanted during the blow outs a few years ago. The manufactures weren't making a profit on those blow out prices.
Yes, the new product pricing is a challenge for the hobbyists. The answer is maybe O Guage and ON30.

If I was starting from scratch today, O Guage and ON30 would be the answer.
There is no way that I will be buying the latest Bachmann Forney at the current pricing.

To understand the product pricing, go to possibly http://www.globeinvestor.com/ and track the American Currency in relation to other world currencies.
The American Currency has tanked. 
Hence, imports are now higher priced.

4) China bashing:

This isn't the 1950's. China is now the new World economic superpower. 
The United States has moved from the World's greatest lender to the World's greatest debtor. 
The United States is heavily in debt to Communist China and was rescued by Communist China following the latest United States market collapse.
Who could possibly foresee that in the 1950's ?
We all wanted inexpensive consumer goods and so our domestic consumer manufacturing base has evaporated. We as free consumers did this. 
Bizar how our Democractic countires built up a Communist Nation economy through our consumer cheapness and greed.

5) Product quality and scale:

The Aristo Craft primer mover loose drivers on axles corrected problem and the Bachmann gear grinding Connie problem would pose a major
discouragement for new hobbyists. There doesn't seem to be the same problems in the O Gauge world.

The limited G consumer market has been fragmented with the 1:32 & 1:29 standard gauge scales and the 1:22.5, 1:24 and 1:20.3 narrow guage scales which in turn has reduced the potential profits.

Compare this G scale complexity to the uncomplex world of O Gauge scale, all 1:48. 


Norman


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the bankruptcy is back in the lime light again. It only affects the consolidation and not the other products such as the the RDC3/mallet/Pacific and the PCC car. Go figure. Later RJD


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 07 Oct 2010 06:00 PM 
Well the bankruptcy is back in the lime light again. It only affects the consolidation and not the other products such as the the RDC3/mallet/Pacific and the PCC car. Go figure. Later RJD 
What bankruptcy is that ? That would certainly be a good excuse for quite a few things.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The bankruptcy of the owners of Sanda Kan about two owners back, and what, 3-4 years ago? 

It's now owned by Kader, who last check isn't bankrupt.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Insert foot into mouth. 

How come the bankruptcy affects the Consolidation, and nothing else? You would think a better excuse could have been: 

1. I changed my mind and we are going to do the RDC-3, PCC and the Mallet and the Pacific before the Consolidation. (which seems to be what happened) 
2. We can only make so many things each year. (defensible, poor priorities IMHO, lot more people want to buy a new steamer than the other stuff.) 
3. Even though we thought we were ready, the engineers lied to me, we are not ready. (blame someone else, always a good tactic) 
4. I'm adding a flashing backup light and the integrated circuit is out of stock (oops that was the excuse on the PCC delay) 
5. We forgot to put the socket into the design (oops, that was another PCC delay excuse)... (imagine Aristo forgetting the Aristo socket... Stan, aren't you helping them?) 

It's just unbelievable that this bankruptcy from years ago (or the recent non-bankruptcy purchase of Sanda Kan) is so selective that it only affects the consolidation, which has been shown and promised for years... but the RDC-3 (which there were no calls for), the PCC (even fewer people interested), the re-tooling of the Mallet and Pacific (to move the socket to the tender, so what)... they are all unaffected... 

What's wrong with the truth some time, or making something else up more believable.... but the faithful will believe I guess, even some misguided soul, who defended the delay because it affected the Aristo bottom line... well that statement says making anything negatively impacts the bottom line... That guy needs a government advisory post, he'll fit right in. 

Bottom line, I just cannot make sense of the reply from Aristo: 

"Aristo-Craft certainly cares, but the bankruptcy of the vendor while a new product is in development stage is tragic. Also, what about a return on our huge investment for this product? Thousands of hours of development time by our engineers is more than detrimental to us. So, we had the most to lose by it's delay and it's a project we work on daily." 

SMFH ... (look that up) 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ventilators Redux


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Thousands of hours of development time by our engineers is more than detrimental to us. 

Is that the same engineers that designed the drivetrain so that the wheels slip & fall off? Or the crew that made the Dash-9 sit to high..Oh that's just an optical illusion don't ya' know? 

What's wrong with the truth some time, or making something else up more believable.... but the faithful will believe I guess, even some misguided soul, who defended the delay because it affected the Aristo bottom line... well that statement says making anything negatively impacts the bottom line... That guy needs a government advisory post, he'll fit right in. 


Well that's what happens when you only have a 6 month business plan I guess..6 months turns into 12 turns into 18 months etc.


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Not this crap again!!!

Chuckger


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you referring to the "crap" excuses coming from Aristocraft for the further delays or the "crap" compaining about them? Personally, I don't have a horse in this race as Aristocraft doesn't do 1:20.3 but I would tend to agree with Greg that a straightforward, blunt, honest and unpalatable answer would actually be better received than these (obviously) bogus reasons that they keep trying to foist off on the gullible public! Of course, there needs to be a certain "reality check" among large scale enthusiasts as well! The economy sucks (to put it mildly) _especially_ for "discretionary" items like model trains (I could have used the word "frivilous" but thought it would be nicer to be diplomatic.) For manufacturers our hobby_ is a business. _We would do well to remember that! We would also do well to remember that_ we_ don't have millions of dollars tied up in an investment that could easily go south very quickly (and no, I _don't_ mean Mexico!) if one wrong decision is made! I'll offer one example: (How's that universal socket with DCC and SUSI interface with a Soundtraxx made-but-not-supported digital sound system-with-no-external-triggers crammed into half of a production line of 3-truck Shays working for you guys?) That was just_ one_ example!

Simply put, these people don't have the luxury of getting _anything_ wrong these days! _Every_ idea, _every_ product has to be a home run! The profit margins are just too small for taking risks! I'm sure that someone has decided that no news is better than a "premature announcement" which is why manufacturers like Bachmann have completely shut down any advance promotions. Apparently, Lewis didn't go down this particular path and announced future products. When they didn't pan out like we had hoped, he preferred to "prevaricate" and come up with reasons for delays while hoping that the interest wouldn't disappear. As the years have dragged on however, this strategy is proving to be a mistake in my opinion. As long as we realize the reasons for doing this (and the realities that forced these reasons) we shouldn't get too worked up about it! Rant away if it makes you all feel better but don't take it personal! Like that famous phrase reminds us, "It ain't personal, it's just business!"


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My motivation, as always, is as I literally state in my posts. 

I have been wanting/waiting for the Consolidation. We have been told many times the molds are done, final approval, blah blah. Last year it was #1 priority. Then several other things "Snuck in" ahead. OK, that's an Aristo decision. A poor decision in my mind since Mr. Polk told me many times in person about his dissapointment in the Mallet sales, and also the Mikado, no more large steamers. But now there are 4 locos "ahead" of the new Consolidation. 

The Consolidation looks like it will be a great loco, smaller in size (so it will run on sharper curves), will come with blind drivers, a higher level of detail, and a very accurate model of the prototype (a step head of the "Pacificado"). 

Now, all of a sudden, a "bankruptcy" that pre-dates the final R&D and molds (which are "done) is blamed for the delay. 

I'm not happy with the delay, and the reasons given. A forthright, and frankly, believable story is what I want as a consumer. 

No one is allowed to post this in the Aristo forum, and so I post it here, in the land of the free. 

Manufacturers need feedback, both positive and negative. Living in a fairy-tale world where everything is perfect is not realistic. 

Regards, Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

greg I have only one thing to csay about all this 


SD9


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

GG1


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

"Expert Modelers tell us" cylinders 1/4" higher than driver axles is "just fine".


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

* Ok first off I'm going to put on my asbestos suit







*

*Next I will state that I too am tired of waiting for the 2-8-0, but there's nothing that I can do about it. Yet I am tired of hearing reason after reason as much as the rest of you. *
*Now I can't tell you how much I was shocked at the news of the SD9 dissappearing of the scope, but again there was nothing I could do about making that happen - EXCEPT, I decieded to make one of my own







It's a slow process, but I like the challange. I've built many locos that are not produced. And believe me, I kinda know what Lewis is talking about with the cost of making new models - even on a small scale( takes 3-4 locos to make one loco) of 1 to 3 units. Now if a person is so passisionate about a certain loco that is not made or keeps being delayed then why not try your hand at making it yourself or have a model maker make one for you







I know we all like to show our feelings about things esp. in our hobby. But I think all this is going to do if it goes on and on will just hurt all of us in the long run. If things always reflect negitively on Aristo or any other manufacturer for that matter, then business will decrease for them and those who are new to the scale will avoid that manufacturer or even abandon the scale. Then the numbers of G scale items will go down, variety and number of products availible will go down and if it goes to the domino effect with the rest of the G manufacturers going out of business, then YOU will be the only one someday making models in G scale. The economy these days really sucks and it doesn't look to get much better until we get a new administration in office in Washington. So we're all just stuck with what we got. It rots, but how can we make the best of it ??? Why not try to build it yourself







Now that's a new idea not mentioned yet. Hmmm, well to try to attempt to build a 2-8-0 you'll need to start at the ground up. A drive will be needed for the 4 axles of drivers. My suggestion would be to use a Mikado block build on it from there. When I get this SD9 completed and the 2-10-2 closer to completion, I'll try my hand at the 2-8-0 myself just to prove to you that it can be done







I think it's better to do something like build it then just sit around complaining about it. Yes I said before that it rots having to wait, but in the meantime you could be making your own loco and then you can be PROUD of it. If you need the blind drivers, then just grind off the flanges on the #2 & #3 axles. That's easy enough to do.*

* Gosh, the more I think about it, it sounds like a great project. I think I WILL make my own 2-8-0







*
*And the cool thing about it is I can custom make it for MY road - Belpraire fire box and all. This is how I'm going to deal with the 2-8-0 delay. And I'll also have say that I too have BOTH roadnumbers in GN on order, just ask Robbie, he'll tell you. THere is soo much out there to use to build locomotives and I tell you it is a lot of fun, challanging at times, but WELL worth every penny of it. And what you don't use to build, you can sell or trade with others for other parts, etc.*

* Greg, I don't have a problem with you. We've had many good talks in chat, but I think this is just like whippin' a dead horse. *
*It's not going to motivate Lewis to speed up the project and I believe it's only going to hurt us all in the long run. If we piss Aristo off enough, they may just make the move to get out of the G scale and move into O scale. I don't want to see this happen and I hope the rest of you folks don't want to see this happen. But I am now serious about making one of these 2-8-0s and I will be more than happy to start a thread on it so you all can see how I will build one. Also would be happy to help anyone with questions on how to build one too. THe only thing to keep in mind is, and I hate to say it, you'll have to wait for me to complete the 2 locos I have open and am building before I start another.*

* Might this help or intrest folks regarding the 2-9-0 ??? *
*I guess I'll be the one buying the Mikado, using a 4-4-2 Atlantic and what else I'll need to build this little monster. *
*This is all I can do to put a positive spin on this problem. Complaining is a real turn off, coming up with a solution to build a model is a better idea







*

*Rocky*


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Rocky.... 
I don't think you have to worry too much about aristo moving to "0" scale. 
I was IN "0" scale for 45 years, and I don't think the company attitude would allow them to last for very long at all. 

Could be wrong.......worth the effort to find out, though. 

Greg, keep it up! 

Maybe we'll have Polk-0. 

Their new logo will be Mister Bill.


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 07 Oct 2010 10:18 PM 
Thousands of hours of development time by our engineers is more than detrimental to us. 

Is that the same engineers that designed the drivetrain so that the wheels slip & fall off? Or the crew that made the Dash-9 sit to high..Oh that's just an optical illusion don't ya' know? 

What's wrong with the truth some time, or making something else up more believable.... but the faithful will believe I guess, even some misguided soul, who defended the delay because it affected the Aristo bottom line... well that statement says making anything negatively impacts the bottom line... That guy needs a government advisory post, he'll fit right in. 


Well that's what happens when you only have a 6 month business plan I guess..6 months turns into 12 turns into 18 months etc. 



You also forgot to mention how the owner of said company blamed his engineer that had cancer, was to blame for all the issues with the Mikado









I dont know if he lived or died but that was just wrong.

I try to understand but i just dont get it.

Johnn


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

I like this site the best cause you can get the truth here and not a bunch of lies. like on another site.

What i find funny is that they all talk smack over there about how this site sucks, But when they want answers they all come here.

I read all the forums and some of these guys really should remember what they post because i do and it really makes some of them look very silly.

This is what someone posted on another forum, but posts here all the time.


[ It's folks like those over on the "other" forum that make me feel bad that I am a part of that forum I hardly post over there now a days due to the liberal type of spin put on there by a select few that seem to get away with doing it and not having their degrading posts yanked off or edited by moderators. About all I ever post on there nowdays is projects I build step by step on the model building forum so others can learn how to kitbash such models. I pretty much don't read their "public" forum let alone dare post there because of the "spin" on things. It's too bad that some carry large chips on their shoulders because of a bad experiance with a model or that a certain model wasn't built or not built overnite. ]


Our club members talk often mostly over breakfast at the Diner and our club President reminded me of a few of these things that happen on different forums, and i just have to say.









Johnn


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Two guesses.....nah, make that one.


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## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

But it gets mention? 

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=16486 

Mytur


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ya know, you can't have diabetes when reading that stuff. 
The sugra coating is too high. 

First responder had it right.....most folks can see through the smoke screen. 
I don't think he's prepared for folks seeing what they're seeing, tho......


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 08 Oct 2010 12:33 PM 
Ya know, you can't have diabetes when reading that stuff. 
The sugra coating is too high. 

First responder had it right.....most folks can see through the smoke screen. 
I don't think he's prepared for folks seeing what they're seeing, tho...... 
Thats what we call over sea's aid..................Or do we call it KOOL English aid.......... i kid cause well im board tonite...........


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Johnn on 08 Oct 2010 11:39 AM 
I like this site the best cause you can get the truth here and not a bunch of lies. like on another site.

What i find funny is that they all talk smack over there about how this site sucks, But when they want answers they all come here.

I read all the forums and some of these guys really should remember what they post because i do and it really makes some of them look very silly.

This is what someone posted on another forum, but posts here all the time.


[ It's folks like those over on the "other" forum that make me feel bad that I am a part of that forum I hardly post over there now a days due to the liberal type of spin put on there by a select few that seem to get away with doing it and not having their degrading posts yanked off or edited by moderators. About all I ever post on there nowdays is projects I build step by step on the model building forum so others can learn how to kitbash such models. I pretty much don't read their "public" forum let alone dare post there because of the "spin" on things. It's too bad that some carry large chips on their shoulders because of a bad experiance with a model or that a certain model wasn't built or not built overnite. ]


Our club members talk often mostly over breakfast at the Diner and our club President reminded me of a few of these things that happen on different forums, and i just have to say.









Johnn



It's almost as if you took those words rite out of my mouth.....HE HE HE


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's kind of like Russia, they were able to control the minds of people for a while, by cutting off outside communication. 

Now, with communication like the Internet, pretty hard to pull this stuff off, and it's easy to search for stuff and find it. 

When you say something like "I will not comment further on this, but either you understand or you don’t wish to. " 

And then you come back on the SAME thread and post again and say "Thanks for all of your understanding and no further comments are necessary." 

And if you don't lock the thread after saying ".... and no further comments are necessary." 

Well, it's pretty clear the real intent. The true motives are clear to anyone who pays attention... 

anyway, this is pretty funny, post here and it comes out somewhere else... 

Greg


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Boy you guys are worse then women! Wah...Wah...Wah... 
Number one since when has the truth EVER been an issue? We are lied to everyday, buy our employers and our government! Get used to it. If Polk DID tell the truth you all, well the ones that ALWAYS complain still would bitch about it! You 2 know who you are! wink..wink! 

In this economy it is lucky that the G scale manufactures are still in business! I know the shows are down and sales are not as brisk as they once were, and lets face it these trains are not cheap! Cheaply made yes! 
As far as Bachmann who cares! 
I have heard that Aristo was a sponsor at one time but the cry babies on this site pissed him off and he pulled his sponsorship...Shad should have put a stop to the whinning a long time ago!Who next is going to be targeted, pissed off so sponsorships are pulled? Is the negative input really that important that these people post??? 
Negative input does nothing for the growth of this site! It chases new people away, not to mention the older members! 
Moderators lock the complaints out lets keep this site to helpful information not turn it into a site known only for bashing, and most important WHINNING!!! 
Leave that to the women! 
Man TFU!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Maybe you had better get your facts straight before you spew. 
Lewis had decided to go elsewhere for his advertising, and had not renewed his advertising here. 
He used the complaints that came a short while later as a "poor picked-on me" excuse, and all the fanatics seemed to believe him. 

The issue is almost political in nature. 
You know how whizzed off voters get when they are lied to by elected officials? 

All you gotta do is open your closed mind and read this stuff, and you, too, will become a believer.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Wheew! too much reading ... 

I just started collecting O tinplate, from manufactures who no longer even exist. I'm having a much more interesting and fun time looking for things based on the premise that NOTHING new is ever going to come out in my chosen field of collection EVER again. What there is, is all there is. its liberating! I kinda have had that outlook in G for the last 2 years, to me nothing new will hit the streets till the economy is way better than it is now, and anything that does come out will for me be either too big, or too expensive so I'm back to square 1 again. 

I just think we'd all be alot better off if we didnt get all flustered over what has or hasnt come out. I agree between the BS from the manufacturers and the lax product QC issues can be frustrating. But ever since the SD-9 and similar debacles, my attitude is that until you actually see it in person, it doesnt exist, and even if a few pre production models exist, there just that, models not production products. The more we go thru this the more I understand just why Bmann never announces anything untill they are 100 percent ready to actually make something and put it one the shelves. Now that said watch them now go and delay the Lyn for 6 months LOL.










Vic, newly confirmed Marxist, ....Louis Marx that is


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Any my "sanity" hobby is restoring OLD H0 stuff. 

I just got a boxful of wartime Varney cardboard side cars to re-work some cold winter night. 

And no Super Sockets!


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

Considering how many companies have canceled all their new product development or completely fallen off of the map, the fact that Aristocraft is still moving forward with new products is a very positive situation. The current financial climate is not helping delivery schedules. 

To put things into perspective, for me, I really want to see Aristo's PCC get delivered, I've been waiting for over a year for them. If they offer one that has the Shaker Rapid colors and logo, I'll probably buy more than one (if not I'll get undecorated ones and paint them myself). 

As long as Aristocraft, and for that matter, MTH, USA Trains, and others remain solvent, I figure that I have a pretty good chance of getting my toys. It just may take a little while, but it will probably be quicker than if I tried to build everything from scratch. 

Tom


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

There's a handful--and it is a handful--of persistent, vocal whiners and complainers here who do little or nothing to advance the hobby or the reputation of this forum. Too bad they don't find another hobby they can truly enjoy!


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

No thanks reading this BS tells me some people on this site to to get layed to release their fustration...OR maybe they are constipated creating all the grouchyness! Maybe both! 

You know if you would open your eyes and realize that NO ONE can change the way things are expecially by complaining about it... 
That is what this site is about, not complaining about stupid things you have no control about! 
I do not get in to politics because you never REALLY know why things are done all you know that you are being lied to.. do I like being lied to.....not just no but **** no! 

Maybe I am more like you..like to argue or I would have not posted anything on this thread...POINTLESS.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Allan W. Miller on 09 Oct 2010 04:29 AM 
There's a handful--and it is a handful--of persistent, vocal whiners and complainers here who do little or nothing to advance the hobby or the reputation of this forum. Too bad they don't find another hobby they can truly enjoy! 

And there are a handful of dim witts that try to control the hobby would rather hide the truth and hurt the hobby,

This is what happened in o scale. Dont you people read magazine like that poor one i think its o guage magazine or something like that, that uses the same stories every year just writes them different.

The Editor of that rag should be well.....Hmmmm let me nice now.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

"And there are a handful of dim witts that try to control the hobby would rather hide the truth and hurt the hobby,"

What companies don't hide the truth? Remember our little friends and thier gas pedal ? ect ect ect

That link to Lewis's post was very interesting. Some people missed the point.

There are somethings beyond some peoples control. 

Until the economy gets better not much can be done.

I have agree with one other member.....If some of you guys would have a sex change you would make a great Old Woman.

It is one thing to post your problem but the constant repeated bashing gets tiresome. 

JJ

PS Dim Witts could have been left out of the above quote and it would still had the same effect


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Since you have decided as a moderator to take sides: 

"It is one thing to post your problem but the constant repeated bashing gets tiresome. " 

JJ, how about you ask the president of Aristo to stop posting threads bashing one individual, Me? And he is ENCOURAGING it. 

I agree, the repeated bashing on the Aristo forum is getting tiresome. 

Also people on the Aristo forum bashing MLS is getting tiresome. 

Or is this one sided, ok for Aristo to bash me and MLS, but not ok to speak our minds here? 

Double standard indeed. 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

That's the way Ventilator Mentality works, Greg. 
Their way or the hiway. 
Doesn't matter which company or political party they arte fanning for! 

Blinders screwed down so tightly their ears stick out like air brakes. 

What I find absolutely amazing is some who claim MLS is getting a bad rep on a certain manufacturer's forum......are often the ones posting said bad MLS rap on that manufacturer's forum! 


Folks who have waited a year for one item...well, we were 5 on the Shay, and that was allegedly good economy.... 

I don't have time for lying sacks of excrement, nor those who try to convince you said sack doesn't stink.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

You can't defend your self from every attack. I tried it It will consume you. Not every disagreement is a attack. If you stop pouring gasoline on the fire eventuly it will go out. WE all know the people here and thier knowledge and thier contribuitions. We have more great knowledgeable people on this site than any where esle on the net. I make allowances for thier personalities. There are people who anoy the living heck out of me but what information they give me is fantastic and they are very helpfull . I probably anoy other people but that's life. Some don't make alowances and that is when the name calling starts. Some people have stopped posting because of the attacks they get. I post what I know from what I have done. I know what I post works. I do not need to defend myself from everyone who disagrees with me. Just because one guys results are different than mine does not make the other guys findings bull poop. 

I belived that all the vendors and manufactures and show promoters do as best they can with wihat they got. They do not have control over eveything. I believe that they make mistakes AKA the two shows in june. I believe if you reason with them they will make corrections. Pointing out the fact that a persons mother hung around with bunch of goats or that his family tree has no branches does not help. 

If you have waiting for a product for over a year it is safe to assume that " The best laid plans of mice and men have been derailed" Constant bashing will not put it back on track.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Since you have decided as a moderator to take sides:That's harsh Greg. Just because someone happens to be a moderator doesn't mean they don't have an opinion, nor does it mean they are not entitled to post it. Nor are we going to waste time and energy posting "disclaimers" every time we express an opinion so as not to upset the thin-skinned or constantly try and cover our asses. It's usually pretty damned obvious when someone is speaking as a mod or speaking as a forum participant. 
JJ, how about you ask the president of Aristo to stop posting threads bashing one individual, Me? And he is ENCOURAGING it.That's an absurd statement. What Aristo chooses to post and/or allow to be posted on his forum is his business, and is completely beyond our control anyway. Do you honestly believe if we "asked" Lewis nicely to do as you suggest, he would comply? I don't know about you, but I have better things to do then to piss into a headwind. 

And speaking both as a mod AND as a forum participant, I agree with JJ. The constant negativity gets tiresome, and I don't think MLS is the place to get any perceived retribution for perceived injuries done on another site. You have your own web site for that, and what you choose to post or not post there is YOUR business and no one else's.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight, JJ posts on both sites. 

He's tired of the Aristo bashing here. 

He's NOT tired of the MLS bashing there. 

(forget the personal bashing of me, I was trying to show the LEVEL of bashing, i.e. we don't allow PERSONAL bashing here, there they do and encourage it in this case). 

Please read that thread on the Aristo site. See how many MLS members are there. See what is said. 

When people HERE bash MLS over THERE, it's a double standard in my mind. 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have made a grave error

I do apologize, I am so sorry that I did not put a disclaimer inmy stement that I was speaking for my self and not as a moderator.

Please do not take my views as that of MLS or any of it's other moderators/owner.

JJ 

PS My views are based on what other members have relayed to me at shows, E mails, and other scoial gatherings.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hmmm I wonder if we stopped bashing Aristo here, would mls bashing stop there? 

Who's got the guts to stop first? 

My money is not on; 'I'm a customer, it's my right!'


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 

I have known JJ since he first made the trip from Arizona to the Desert Layout in Palm Springs, to meet up with the "Original Southern California Gang" in 2003. I have to say that JJ is one of the kindest gentleman that I have known and he did not deserve the "smack-down" he just received. Greg you have always given me a great deal of help with electronics and computers. I respect you for that. But this "thing" with Lewis Polk and Aristo is over the top, IMHO. Let's get back to our love of this great hobby!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

SO? when will someone please lock this thread. 
Hearing goods and bads about products is one thing, understand fixes and what could have been done, but on going bashing of any company (key word "on going") is hurting the hobby and a number of our club memebers won't even visit here becuase they are sick of some attitudes, yes I spelled it right.. 
I try to over look this and enjoy all my friends that are on here. But its getting harder and hard. SHAD, ower,, needs to draw some lines.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you!!!!!! 
JJ and Dwight ,and Marty

Richard


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Please read that thread on the Aristo site. See how many MLS members are there. See what is said. When people HERE bash MLS over THERE, it's a double standard in my mind.I really couldn't care less what people "over there" say about "over here." What happens "over there" isn't my concern and, as I said before, not under the control of anyone "over here" anyway. People will check out "over there" and "over here" and will make up their own minds. Attempting to answer here stuff said there leads to no positive result here (confused yet?







) and drags this forum down to whatever level may or may not be the norm there. People checking out both forms may be hard pressed at times to tell the difference, and that doesn't do MLS any good.

"Over there" is a company owned forum specifically created for the purpose of discussing their products. Their claim is that it allows them to listen to their customers. I will not comment on the truth or fiction of that claim here, as it's none of our business. Besides, I'm into live steam in Fn3, and even before live steam was still an Fn3 modeler and narrow gauge fan. I own no AC products and don't frequent their forum, so anything I have heard is second-hand. As a result, any opinion I formed would be based upon the opinions of others - not the best formula for exercising a judgment.

At any rate, as a site and marketing tool owned and operated by a company, it should come as no great shock if the owner of said company is less than fond of posts that are less than flattering regarding his products. Whether or not that is a good business strategy will be decided by the marketplace and by the strength of the products themselves, and not by anything said or not said here regarding that strategy or that forum.

MLS can play a role only as a place where honest and unbiased product reviews, both positive and negative, can be posted without interference from those on either side with an ax to grind or an interest, either financial or personal, in the outcome. If we confine posts on this forum to those meeting that criteria, we can hold our head high and it doesn't matter what may be said elsewhere, as facts are facts. Attacking a company, their forum, or their officials here, or posting negative opinions here not directly related to factual problems with a product does not further that goal and drags us down. It really is that simple.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 08 Oct 2010 10:59 PM 
Any my "sanity" hobby is restoring OLD H0 stuff. 

I just got a boxful of wartime Varney cardboard side cars to re-work some cold winter night. 

And no Super Sockets! 
.......................................................................................................

We have some old Ho here to. "Neat old kits" but also, a lot of Varney plastic & metal kits to build yet or repair..Even some old Athern metal kits to and it getting about that time. 

To bad there not still around. 

Still waiting on big parts stuff . Guess it nice that they may be available some day if not pushed out of business. But if want it now, guess I can make it myself.

Boy this is sure a long Thread and I got sucked in to it.. Back to playing with Trains no mater what size they are.







Life is to short.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I think I will just go back outside and run my trains......and drink a few cold ones!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By livesteam53 on 09 Oct 2010 01:11 PM 
I think I will just go back outside and run my trains......and drink a few cold ones! 

It's the best you can do.
Waiting for the next release or excuse will put you in your grave.

I don't care.
Either they don't make what I can use, or their quality sux, I've sworn off new purchases from any of them.


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 09 Oct 2010 01:23 PM 
Posted By livesteam53 on 09 Oct 2010 01:11 PM 
I think I will just go back outside and run my trains......and drink a few cold ones! 

It's the best you can do.
Waiting for the next release or excuse will put you in your grave.

I don't care.
Either they don't make what I can use, or their quality sux, I've sworn off new purchases from any of them.


And the Plot thickens [ dum dum dummmmmmmmmmmmm ]

Will JJ ever run without a derailment

Will Mr Cozad become KING of large scale

Will Greg get his Revenge

Will Lewis Polk ever recover









Will Dave ever post a picture of the Bachmann shay drive block i asked for

Will Dwight run for President

Will Aristo Craft ever make some thing that works out of the Box

Will the Mass's that some say are away ever return


These answers and more on the next episode of 

As the G Scale World Turns

























Johnn


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Why lock the thread? Because some thinned skin folks that live in the midwest don't like the bashing that Aristo gets?

Wasn't like 10+ years ago that Shad/MLS got booted from the ECLSTS because Lewis didn't like the way things were over here and now you complain?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Opening locker. 
Removing asbestos flame suit. 
Getting into said suit. 
Dousing myself with flame retartdant. 
Entering bomb bunker......... 

now.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 09 Oct 2010 03:17 PM 
Opening locker. 
Removing asbestos flame suit. 
Getting into said suit. 
Dousing myself with flame retartdant. 
Entering bomb bunker......... 

now.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Johnn on 09 Oct 2010 02:01 PM 
Posted By Curmudgeon on 09 Oct 2010 01:23 PM 
Posted By livesteam53 on 09 Oct 2010 01:11 PM 
I think I will just go back outside and run my trains......and drink a few cold ones! 

It's the best you can do.
Waiting for the next release or excuse will put you in your grave.

I don't care.
Either they don't make what I can use, or their quality sux, I've sworn off new purchases from any of them.


And the Plot thickens [ dum dum dummmmmmmmmmmmm ]

Will JJ ever run without a derailment

Will Mr Cozad become KING of large scale

Will Greg get his Revenge

Will Lewis Polk ever recover









Will Dave ever post a picture of the Bachmann shay drive block i asked for

Will Dwight run for President

Will Aristo Craft ever make some thing that works out of the Box

Will the Mass's that some say are away ever return


These answers and more on the next episode of 

As the G Scale World Turns

























Johnn


I will play can i OK

Not likely

Not likely

Think he got it

Who cares

What !!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope so we need a firm hand up there

When Scott takes over

Dont be fooled there here now


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, that's it. I've deleted a couple of personal attacks and I'm locking this. Some people refuse to abide by the rules of simple courtesy and you can thank those people for getting this locked.


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