# SHAY AT THE MALL



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I called the Mall Management to check and see if it was allright to run the live steam at our layout in the Mall and she said she had no issues with our running live steam.
My question is this, and I would like as honest an answer as possible. Are there any health related issues that might arise from running butane fired engines in an envioronment that is fairly open?
I understand the risks of fire and such if not protected, but am mainly interested in real experiences that would be harmful, fumes, oill resideu danger to lungs, etc.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

The chemical formula of butane is C4H10. With enough oxygen (e.g. in an environment where humans can exist) it burns to water and CO2. Both are also expelled by humans too. Burnt oil is probably less desirable, but it is usually mixed with steam/water. Many indoors events like Diamondhead and Sacramento have not lead to any complaints. 
Regards


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 05 Mar 2011 09:35 PM 
I called the Mall Management to check and see if it was allright to run the live steam at our layout in the Mall and she said she had no issues with our running live steam.
My question is this, and I would like as honest an answer as possible. Are there any health related issues that might arise from running butane fired engines in an envioronment that is fairly open?
I understand the risks of fire and such if not protected, but am mainly interested in real experiences that would be harmful, fumes, oill resideu danger to lungs, etc.



Art - I just worked out that driving into central Fort Worth just once on the average May morning in your '57 Malibu convertible is the daily toxic gas ingestion quotient equivalent of standing beside your operating gas-fired Shay for 101.382 million years.

On the other paw, directly inhaling butane by stuffing the valve up your nose and letting rip up would DEFINITELY be harmful. As would lighting it from your ears or through your open mouth. I agree with Henner about the stuff coming out of the stack directly, but you'd have to pay me a LOT of money to make me it try it out. And BTW, I've never ever seen anybody do it for a laff, either.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund 
PS - Great Layout!


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just an aside, off topic slightly, but applicable, my 12 year old daughter and I watched the black-and-white version of The Day The Earth Stood Still. 

She was quite surprised to see the doctor, in the hospital, offer his patient a cigarette and then light up... 

Funny how much the world has changed, now we have to worry, legitimatally, that steam could be harmful indoors. 

Thanks, Robert


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

On the other paw, directly inhaling butane by stuffing the valve up your nose and letting rip up would DEFINITELY be harmful. Guess I picked the wrong week to take up sniffing butane... 
Funny how much the world has changed...Yeah, and not much for the better imho.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

My good friend Art. (and he knows that I mean that) The place that you are referring to has always been a "*Sparky*" only run place. Many Sparky runners are excited to see a "Real steamer" now. But, when the nostalgia wears off and they start seeing the oil and grease on their pristine "Sparky" only track I think that your running might get looked down on. At that point they may be too nice to tell you and you will become a royal pain the A - - to them. Now I do admit, this is coming from someone that has only run a sparky a few times in his life and does not have a dog in this fight. It just kind of makes sense to me.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

What's the toxicity level of the smoke juice fumes that come out of a sparky's stack? Some of that stuff can rival the smoke made by kerosene or mineral spirits during coal firing light off. At Diamondhead, I don't believe I've smelled burning butane. I _*HAVE *_smelled (and produced) alcohol and associated coal firing fumes!


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 06 Mar 2011 12:49 PM 
My good friend Art. (and he knows that I mean that) The place that you are referring to has always been a "*Sparky*" only run place. Many Sparky runners are excited to see a "Real steamer" now. But, when the nostalgia wears off and they start seeing the oil and grease on their pristine "Sparky" only track I think that your running might get looked down on. At that point they may be too nice to tell you and you will become a royal pain the A - - to them. Now I do admit, this is coming from someone that has only run a sparky a few times in his life and does not have a dog in this fight. It just kind of makes sense to me.
I understand the concern of possibilty of oil on track, but that is easy to remove. As some one above said, the smell of "Sparkie" smoke is worse. I'm mainly testing water. As you probably do not know, there are very few of our members who show up at Mall and not near as much as some.








My running steam at Mall will probaly wear off soon, Im just not gonna be intimidated.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

When you got Live Steam you know your running a Real Locomotive.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I've never run live steam, and I think I"ve only ever seen a couple of them run from a distance. How much of a mess do they make? Are they worse than those cheapie Bachmann smoke generators that spray stuff all over? 

Just curious, where's the mall? Is it just an exhibition kind of layout? 

Thanks, Robert


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

It's in Texas. 

Guessing it's Houston. 

Kinda ties it down a bit if you live in UK like I do... :=( 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you know Texas is 3X bigger than the UK and is just a little bit bigger than France? 

Trivia for today! 

I'm just curious about Live Steam, ever heard of the Tiny Town Railroad in Colorado? 

Robert


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## jdmitchell (Jan 2, 2008)

It's at Northwest mall in Houston, Texas. This is the Houston Area 'G' Gauger's club track. It is open to the public every Saturday from 1PM to 6PM. Check out the club web site at http://www.houstonagg.com/.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 06 Mar 2011 03:34 PM 
I've never run live steam, and I think I"ve only ever seen a couple of them run from a distance. How much of a mess do they make? Are they worse than those cheapie Bachmann smoke generators that spray stuff all over? 

Just curious, where's the mall? Is it just an exhibition kind of layout? 

Thanks, Robert 
It is the Northwest Mall here in Houston. Our Club Houston Area "G" gaughers has a permanent layout there, where we run trains evry Saturday for the kids.
Sorry about duplication. Did not see above answer. 
Jim'By the way that is the first time I have seen you site on the web, Great job,


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 06 Mar 2011 03:59 PM 
Did you know Texas is 3X bigger than the UK and is just a little bit bigger than France? 

Trivia for today! 

I'm just curious about Live Steam, ever heard of the Tiny Town Railroad in Colorado? 

Robert TX v France? 

Meh.

The UK, a tiny country with a population of almost 68 million, and once owners of the largest empire the world will ever see, has over 2000 preserved live-steam locomotives in operation.

Texas has, uh............well, Sir, you tell me.

And if we are in braggin' mode, well then.......here's some more trivia for ya' -









Nunavut - 808,190 sq miles = 3.1 x TX.
Quebec - 595,391 sq miles = 2.3 x TX
North West Territories - 519,734 sq miles = 2 x TX
Ontario - 415,598 sq miles = 1.6 x TX
British columbia - 364,764 sq miles = 1.4 x TX

France - 260,558 sq miles

Texas - 258,581 sq miles

Alberta - 255,541 sq miles = 0.98 x TX
Saskatchewan - 251,700 sq miles = 0.97 x TX 
Manitoba - 250,950 sq miles = 0,96 x TX
Yukon - 186,272 sq miles = 0.72 x TX 
You were sayin'......?


tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

How much of a mess do they make? Are they worse than those cheapie Bachmann smoke generators that spray stuff all over? 
They make a big mess. The rest of the train also gets a good spraying. Many of us clean our locos with industrial oil/grease remover after a day's running. 

Especially the Accucraft locomotives. Accu was concerned that we'd run their engines with too little steam oil reaching the cylinders. [A live steam engine lubricates the steam gear - pistons, etc. - using thick oil that is carried with the steam from the cab lubricator.] The excess oil is sprayed out of the stack with the exhaust steam - lots of it from an unmodified engine. (There are solutions to the problem, but not many folk want to tamper with a $$ expensive engine.) 

Besides the stuff spraying out of the stack all over the place, there is a lot of oil that doesn't make it out and runs down into the smokebox - a 2-cyl Shay makes little popping sounds as it burns up the oil and blue smoke comes out of the stack. Other locos let the oil drip out underneath onto the track and rails. The C-16 used to have brake blocks under the front and they dripped oil exactly on top of the rails! 

We often clean the track at a live steam meet - just to get traction.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

You forgot Alaska: 586412 square miles 

Where the heck is "Nunavut?" Is that a planet? 

Robert


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 07 Mar 2011 08:36 AM 
You forgot Alaska: 586412 square miles 

Where the heck is "Nunavut?" Is that a planet? 

Robert Sir - I ignored Alaska for a reason, it hangs on the side of Canada and is not contiguous with the rest of the USA. Nunavut is the northern Province where the mostly Inuit folks live. In the country just above yours...

Best 

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah, yes, Canada. I've been there, very nice place. Beautiful scenery, Crows Nest Pass, Rogers Pass, definitely a railfans dream... 

I had no idea the UK had so many working steam locomotives! You guys definitely have us beat on that one. Just as an interesting aside, what happens when the last GP-9 is scrapped? The last SD70Ace? 

The British Empire? I remember that from history, I'm pretty sure that not everybody was a willing participant... 

But, back on topic. respectfully, I think people would get kind of upset if their "sparky" locos and cars had to be cleaned up because of a blast of steam oil all over the sides and roofs of the cars. Does it affect paint at all? 

Or do you use something that mitigates that.

Robert


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Robert - steam oil makes an easily-removed emulsion - that's how it works inside the steam locomotive itself. Those locos that tend to spew it out like a wumpus are obviously in some need of attention. I have a little t-bar regulator on my Shays' steam-oil lube displacers - made by David Bailey - that enables you to fine-tune and control the level of feed - I get NO crappy loco top or car tops.... 

Did I mention, though, that most steam locos dribble? Some, a lot. That, of course, lies on and between the tracks, particularly with gas-fired AccuCraft locos with their open-to-atmosphere smokeboxes. 

As for 'blast' - well, in my short 45 years of live-steaming in model form, 'blast' is not the word I'd ever use. At main131's track we are often operation four or five steamers simultaneously, and I've never seen any evidence of 'blast-slathered' locos. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration fund


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, tac, I guess if your steamie and my sparkie could co-exist without harming one another (are the wheels insulated?), then I'd run with you all day long. No big deal, really. 

I'm sure you can understand my concern, doubleheaded K"s and a 10 car AMS train represents quite a monetary investment...

Interestingly enough, have you ever run American Flyer or Lionel on white carpet? They leave a mess. Graphite from the motor brushes... 

Robert


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## jdmitchell (Jan 2, 2008)

Art, I hope to get to mall soon, still working Saturdays. I would like to watch your shay. Have you run your big boy at the mall?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jdmitchell on 07 Mar 2011 07:42 PM 
Art, I hope to get to mall soon, still working Saturdays. I would like to watch your shay. Have you run your big boy at the mall? 

Big Boy would not run at Mall. Radius not near large enough. A "Sparkie" BB will not make turns either. 
I run the BB at Zube and At Speck's.
Come on down to Mall if you get a day off. Ill make sure I have the track clean.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 07 Mar 2011 03:26 PM 
Well, tac, I guess if your steamie and my sparkie could co-exist without harming one another (are the wheels insulated?), then I'd run with you all day long. No big deal, really. 

I'm sure you can understand my concern, doubleheaded K"s and a 10 car AMS train represents quite a monetary investment...

Interestingly enough, have you ever run American Flyer or Lionel on white carpet? They leave a mess. Graphite from the motor brushes... 

Robert 
Robert - All my more modern steamies have insulated axles - I run both together on my little track on odd occasions. That's interesting about the double-headed K's and 10-car AMS train - I have exactly that, too!

Sadly, not only are American Flyer and Lionel as rare as flying turtles over here in UK, but so are white carpets. Who the h&ll in UK would have white carpets? 

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 07 Mar 2011 07:49 PM Come on down to Mall if you get a day off. Ill make sure I have the track clean.








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Art, your a trouble maker.....................but, I like trouble makers.









However, if everybody starts bringing their live steamers to the mall to run the track there will get as oily as mine. And you know what a pain in the rear that can be. You are correct that there is no problem with only *one* steamer being run there, but you are kicking the door open for all to run. Next, people will start running alcohol, then coal, then smoke alarms go off and everyone (even the sparky runners) will be thrown out. I don't care, I have only been there two times in my life but the place was never intended for live steam and you know that.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 08 Mar 2011 07:15 AM 
Posted By gibs035 on 07 Mar 2011 07:49 PM Come on down to Mall if you get a day off. Ill make sure I have the track clean.








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Art, your a trouble maker.....................but, I like trouble makers.









However, if everybody starts bringing their live steamers to the mall to run the track there will get as oily as mine. And you know what a pain in the rear that can be. You are correct that there is no problem with only *one* steamer being run there, but you are kicking the door open for all to run. Next, people will start running alcohol, then coal, then smoke alarms go off and everyone (even the sparky runners) will be thrown out. I don't care, I have only been there two times in my life but the place was never intended for live steam and you know that.



teve 
I do not intend to start running steam all the time, but if that is what it takes to get other members to show up at the Mall on Sat then so be it.
The only two other memebers who show up occasionally on Sat who have Steamers, are Bill and Caleb. They are only seven or eight who are regulars. 
The more the merrier and I dont believe there would be coal or alcohol, since Caleb , Bill and I or the only ones with coal and alcohol.
As I said earlier I will probably quit live steaming there soon.
Did not realize how much ---- I would stir up.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

It is always fun to stir up the "sparkies" 

Keep on running Live Steam the real locomtovies


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, ya gotta love them 'locomtovies'! ;=) 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I heard something about the Garden Railway Club at the Colorado Railroad Museum doesn't allow alcohol fired locomotives on the same track as sparkies because of spilled alcohol and something about not being able to see the fire... 

Robert


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Those locos that tend to spew it out like a wumpus are obviously in some need of attention. 
Tac, I did point out that they can be fixed, but not everyone is comfortable modifying an expensive loco. 

The simplest way I know to cure them is to screw in a 'chuffer' or 'bark box', though the latter isn't quite a drop-in like the 'chuffer'. 

All my more modern steamies have insulated axles 
Yours maybe, but none of my Accucraft locos are insulated. 

I guess if your steamie and my sparkie could co-exist without harming one another 
Did you hear about the electric steam engine model that was beautifully weathered to look like it was grimay and oily? A passing live steamer totally riuned the paint job!


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Yo Pete - I guess I'm a'starving my poor locomtovies [I love that word] since none of 'em spew the stuff out of the stack, and all but two are AccuCraft products. True, the two Shays have Mr Bailey's excellent modded lubricators, but they cost nutpeas. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr Bailey's excellent modded lubricators, but they cost nutpeas. 
and someone had to take out the steam pipes in the cab to install them, I bet.


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