# More concrete roadbed questions



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your patience with my various posts about roadbed techniques, and for educating me (from scratch) on ladder methods, plastic wood, and a host of related details. 

I've worked thru a decision tree on the factors that are important to me, and (thanks to the experience of everyone here) it seems like I should go with a concrete roadbed approach, at least for my first build next spring. That is, only if I can get the needed geometry control for the forms, in 3D space, as would have been inherent with the ladder approach. (To put it briefly, my terrain is undulating, and very difficult to sink posts into). 

Main question: has anyone used a method for concrete roadbed forming, where you survey and plant stakes and get the forms accurately planted per your intended plans? As opposed to a more free-form approach? I'm tending toward using PVC trim but with stakes exterior to the track centerline, perhaps backed up with pre-cut jigs for switches and standard radii. But I'm open to any suggestions.

If I can get a handle on that, I'm tending to believe a concrete roadbed would be the best approach for me.

I have a few lesser questions though.

Ballast: Has anyone found a method to make the ballast stay put?

Switches: Has anyone found it beneficial to make up a standard switch form? If so, what was the process / approach?

Centerline blocks, for screwing down track on occasion: Has anyone used plastic "wood" blocks, embedded into the concrete?

Reinforcement: Has anyone found an adequate, non-metallic reinforcment for the concrete? FRP rebar is expensive and non-bendable, but I thought I'd ask.

Thanks again everyone.

Best regards,
Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Cliff I cant answer most of your questions except the alternative for reinforcement. You can use fiberous material such as fiberglass. It is easier to bend but with flexability comes the likelihood of cracks. Plastic grid is also can be used. 

Keep in mind the more rigid your reinforcement is, the better it will stand up against flexure that causes cracking in your concrete. That is why rebar is the chosen product. For expense try looking at a metal supply place, usually they are cheaper than a hardware store.


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## GarryNCGRR (Jan 18, 2008)

Okay....not going to tell you how the concrete should be done...but will just say how I did mine. It has been in place fo overr four years now and is holding up perfect. I drew up my plan ...staked it all out and then dug down about 1 1/2 inches where the concrete would be poured. Then on the straights I used 3/8th ply to form the edges for the concrete and on the curves used plastic garden edging ,both staked in place with 1 X 2s driven to the outside edge. Used light rebar at first to strengthen the concrete...but lately have been using stucco wire laid into the concrete to strengthen it...both work for me. Have heard of a way of using short fibre glass strings mixed into the concrete to give it more strength...but have not tried it yet, might be worth looking into.
To secure the track to the concrete....I used plastic anchors, smallest ones I could find. Just drill holes where needed....pound in the anchor and you are set. I fasten down the ties about every 30 to 36 inches. 

When I was setting the forms in place I made up cardboard shapes of the switches and made the concrete the right width and shape to allow for them as I went. Also took levels of side to side and down the length every yard or so trying to keep it all where it should be.

As for the ballast ? As of this time I just keep replacing it as I lose it. Don't know where it goes...but it does go! I really don't mind going around adding some time to time as it does keep it looking fresh and cared for. 
One thing about concrete roadbed.....not a lot of maintenance to the track once it is in place. As long as the base under the concrete is well settled and drains well ...it should hold up for a long long time, least that is the plan. So far all is well with it. I use code 250 aluminum rail which is softer than most and have had no issues with rough trackage.
Like I said...this is not a note on how it should be done...just wanted to mention how I went about it. If it can help you at all ...great. If you want to ask any questions about my roadbed...feel free to do so...I would be more than happy to answer. 


Garry NCGRR


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here are some pictures of the way I formed a concrete base for a cross over switch.

This is a assembly of materials. The rebar was placed in the middle up off the ground so the concrete could encase it.

There are corss sections wired to the long sections which are not showen in these pictures. 





















This is a stake on the inside of the form that I needed to hold the from up right as I poured. The stake remained after the pour.










You can still see the forms in place.











The forms for curves are different. The are made up and used again and again becuase i am doing all 20 ft curves 

They are a bent piced of 1/8 x 2.5 inch flat steel 

They have holes drilled at intervals. The holes match the inner form so that bolts can be inserted with 1/2 plastic pipe for spacers.

The bolts come out and the spacers remain


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If you are interested in how I make the re usable 20 FT curves I can post pictures of that process also. The process can be applied to any diamater curve. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the great pointers, guys, and thanks for bearing with me switching threads. That other one I started began with my (now defunct) notion of using concrete backerboard in only switch and yard areas with the remainder held up with pvc substructure. Things swung to such a different direction though (with many fascinating offshoots) that I wanted to now focus on just this approach, that is, using concrete throughout. 

Once I listed the issues and ranked / scored them (vs. ladder) in a spreadsheet, it became clear that concrete is the way to go for my situation. 

Jake and Gary, do you have pics of your construction? John, yours speak volumes, thanks very much. That link to Marty's method was great too (thanks Neil): http://archive.mylargescale.com/art...dbed01.asp

Cool idea on leaving in the plastic spacers John; gives some extra drainage opportunity, right? 

OK, you've all answered my first round of questions, but here goes with the next set.

1. Do you suppose that PVC trim board (e.g., Tuf Board) will do as well for the forms? I no longer have a drill press







and they seem cheap enough.

2. How thick should I plan on going? Totalwrecker recommended 4" minumum I think. But In Maryland, with frost heave issues, should I go thicker?

3. I was thinking about routing PVC trim boards for a spline, adjusting position / tangents / grades, then adding spacers and the other side to make the form / screed edge, and using templates for switch areas. Does this sound reasonable?

4. John, it looks like you're using mesh / lath also. To what extent? If galvanized, might it behave better than rebar?

5. For areas where the soil drops one or two feet too low, would you always build it up and compact it first, or is there a way to block up the forms and backfill later? Probably a dumb question, but the differences between this and the plastic ladder method are only slowly dawning on me. Personally, for dips less than, say, a foot, I'd like to form all the way down, add drain tubes and reinforcement, fill all with 'crete, and backfill later. 

6. Have any of you ended up with soil washout / settling, creating an unsupported span? If so, how did you deal with it? 


FWIW, I'm working with all newly-filled (but well-compacted) soil in islands that are bounded by retaining walls.

Thanks again, and best regards,

Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By CliffyJ on 15 Jan 2011 11:29 AM 
Thanks for the great pointers, guys, and thanks for bearing with me switching threads. That other one I started began with my (now defunct) notion of using concrete backerboard in only switch and yard areas with the remainder held up with pvc substructure. Things swung to such a different direction though (with many fascinating offshoots) that I wanted to now focus on just this approach, that is, using concrete throughout. 

Once I listed the issues and ranked / scored them (vs. ladder) in a spreadsheet, it became clear that concrete is the way to go for my situation. 

Jake and Gary, do you have pics of your construction? John, yours speak volumes, thanks very much. That link to Marty's method was great too (thanks Neil): http://archive.mylargescale.com/art...dbed01.asp

Cool idea on leaving in the plastic spacers John; gives some extra drainage opportunity, right? 

OK, you've all answered my first round of questions, but here goes with the next set.

1. Do you suppose that PVC trim board (e.g., Tuf Board) will do as well for the forms? I no longer have a drill press







and they seem cheap enough.


I HAVE USED ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING FOR FORMS. I USE THE PLASTIC EDGING YOU GET IN THE GARDEN DEPARTMENT IN 25 TO 50 FT ROLLS I USED 1 FT LONG REBAR FOR STAKES. PUTTING REBAR BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE TO KEEP THE EDGING UPRIGHT. I HAVE EVEN DUG A TRENCH 4 INCHES WIDE AND FILLED IT 
I HAVE USED SURVEY STAKES YOU CAN BUY IN BUNDLES FOR SUPPORT. 


2. How thick should I plan on going? Totalwrecker recommended 4" minumum I think. But In Maryland, with frost heave issues, should I go thicker?


mY MINAMUM IS 2.5 INCHES MY MAX ( AT THIS TIME) IS SIX INCNES. I HAVE SET FORMS AND LEVELED THEM BOTH ACCROSS AND LENGTH WISE( GRADE). PUT IN MY REBAR AND POURED CONCRETE.

3. I was thinking about routing PVC trim boards for a spline, adjusting position / tangents / grades, then adding spacers and the other side to make the form / screed edge, and using templates for switch areas. Does this sound reasonable?

SWITCHS ARE JUST A WIDE SPOT IN THE ROAD BED ( SEE PICTURE) 

4. John, it looks like you're using mesh / lath also. To what extent? If galvanized, might it behave better than rebar?

I HAVE USED HARDWARE FABRIC ( THE STUFF SOME GUYS USE FOR WINDOWS) I HAVE USED THE LADDER REBAR THEY PUT IN THE MOTOR BETWEEN LAYERS OF CINDERBLOCK WHEN BUILDING WALLS. 



5. For areas where the soil drops one or two feet too low, would you always build it up and compact it first, or is there a way to block up the forms and backfill later? Probably a dumb question, but the differences between this and the plastic ladder method are only slowly dawning on me. Personally, for dips less than, say, a foot, I'd like to form all the way down, add drain tubes and reinforcement, fill all with 'crete, and backfill later.


I HAVE TAMPED THE SOIL AS IT LAYS. I THEN SET UP MY FORMS SO THEY ARE LEVEL ACCROSS AND ADJUSTED FOR GRADE, IF ANY. ADDED MY REBAR AND POURED 
THE THICKNESS VARRIES FROMN 2 TO SIX INCHES. BUT THE TOP IS LEVEL. I THEN BACK FILLED 

6. Have any of you ended up with soil washout / settling, creating an unsupported span? If so, how did you deal with it? 

I HAVE HAD WASH OUTS TOTALLY UNDERMINDING THE THE ROAD BED. I BACK FILLED WITH A SOUPY MUD MIX AND POURED IT IN PLACE ( LIKE A SLURY)

THEN I RE ROUTED THE WATER 


FWIW, I'm working with all newly-filled (but well-compacted) soil in islands that are bounded by retaining walls.

Thanks again, and best regards,

Cliff 


Switches are just a wide spot in the road bed.


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## dmikee (Dec 27, 2007)

I suggest you just say no to concrete. Either use a ladder type roadbed or use redwood or cedar fence boards. This is far more satisfactory and is always flexible for fuure modifications. Use concrete bricks or 6" x 16" cap pavers to avoid direct earth to wood contact. Also just say no to ballast - it washes away or if glued, locks track in place so it breaks apart and it is just a maintenance nightmare especially with falling debris such as needles, acorns and leaves.


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Love that picture JJ. Can't wait until I an get to a place where I can put down tracks permanently...


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## bob7094 (Jan 3, 2008)

My more or less step by step process is
1. Lay sectional track on the grass, trying to keep the track joints square, but making it end up where I want it.
2. *About 8 to 10 feet at a time, *use a garden spade to cut through the grass about an inch out from the ties.
3. Dig up the grass in between the established boundaries.
4. Remove loose soil to a depth of 2 or 3 inches.
5. Install masonite forms backed by 3/4 inch stakes, with top of forms about 3 inches above bottom of trough.
6. Level the tops of the forms from side to side.
7. Cut some hardware cloth to fit in between the forms.
8. Lay a length of 12 gauge garden lighting wire in the middle, leaving ample exposed for making connections to the buildings.
9. Mix about 30-60 pounds concrete and 10-20 pounds mortar with water. I use these proportions because Marty said so. I use this quantity because it gets hard to mix more than this at one time.
10. Pour about a third of this into the form, then add the hardware cloth, then the rest.
11. Level and smooth the mix with a mason's trowel.
12. Clean up with lots of water.
13. Don't touch it for a few days. 

I've done this four or five times, and I intend to do some more this spring. Here's some I did a few years ago:









I think those fiber spacers are probably unnecessary for expansion purposes, but they define what I did in one day.

I'm in New Jersey -- most years little snow, this year three feet so far -- and no sign of cracking
except one spot where I checked to see if it was completely set after a week (it wasn't).

-- Bob Mills


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By bob7094 on 15 Jan 2011 07:38 PM 
My more or less step by step process is
1. Lay sectional track on the grass, trying to keep the track joints square, but making it end up where I want it.
2. *About 8 to 10 feet at a time, *use a garden spade to cut through the grass about an inch out from the ties.
3. Dig up the grass in between the established boundaries.
4. Remove loose soil to a depth of 2 or 3 inches.
5. Install masonite forms backed by 3/4 inch stakes, with top of forms about 3 inches above bottom of trough.
6. Level the tops of the forms from side to side.
7. Cut some hardware cloth to fit in between the forms.
8. Lay a length of 12 gauge garden lighting wire in the middle, leaving ample exposed for making connections to the buildings.
9. Mix about 30-60 pounds concrete and 10-20 pounds mortar with water. I use these proportions because Marty said so. I use this quantity because it gets hard to mix more than this at one time.
10. Pour about a third of this into the form, then add the hardware cloth, then the rest.
11. Level and smooth the mix with a mason's trowel.
12. Clean up with lots of water.
13. Don't touch it for a few days. 

I've done this four or five times, and I intend to do some more this spring. Here's some I did a few years ago:









I think those fiber spacers are probably unnecessary for expansion purposes, but they define what I did in one day.

I'm in New Jersey -- most years little snow, this year three feet so far -- and no sign of cracking
except one spot where I checked to see if it was completely set after a week (it wasn't).

-- Bob Mills



Yea Just Like Bob said









JJ

PS I have changed direction of the road bed after it cured with a 5 LB mall and a dremel Tool with a cutter blade


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all your answers John, it's so great getting detailed feedback, and knowing that you've had your roadbed for 12 years (I believe you said). 

Thanks for the setp-by-step Bob, that all seems very straightforward. I like how you're using masonite! Someone gave me 5 sheets of it, and I've not seen how to use it (before seeing your forms). 

Interesting about your electrical wire; do you just put loops out the sides, to tap into it later? Also, did you secure your masonite to the stakes with anything? 

Hardware cloth seems nice, because you can get it galvanized, it's cheap, and it spreads the reinforcement thoughout the width of the pour. For my compacted-fill situation, would you Bob, John, or others, recommend using rebar in addition? (I'd rather use two layers of hardware cloth instead, if that would do the job). 

Someone mentioned gravel in the bottom of the trench (in a different), but I don't see any in the pics in this thread. Any reason to bother with it?

Bob, your expansion joints look very sensible, but have you seen any heave-induced buckling there? 

Thanks again, you're all helping me zero in on final decisions and details.








Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

For Frost heave you might try this.

After the ground has completly thawed.

soak the area around the heave real good with water 

Then step on the road bed to see if you can push it back down.

This is just a thought I have had to deal with frost heave.

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John, will do. 

It's good to know that this concrete method can really work, and that remedies are there in the times where it won't quite. 

I've never dealt with heave issues at all; it's kinda like an evil genie, an immutable force, at work all around me every winter, that I've been warned of every way from Sunday... 

So thanks all for helping take the voodoo out if it.

BTW, base on all the great input on this thread and others, I'm putting some time into writing up a full plan of attack for my next spring's efforts. So far, it seems all very workable; and it's such a relief! I know I keep saying "thanks", but I really mean it: THANK YOU JOHN, BOB, and EVERYONE WHO'S HELPED ME THROUGH THIS!! If anyone's interested in seeing what I come up with, let me know.

Cliff


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## bob7094 (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 16 Jan 2011 06:58 AM 

> Interesting about your electrical wire; do you just put loops out the sides, to tap into it later? 

Exactly.

> Also, did you secure your masonite to the stakes with anything?

I use #6 x 3/4 wood screws to attach the masonite to the stakes. If I had a brad nailer, I would try that.



> Bob, your expansion joints look very sensible, but have you seen any heave-induced buckling there?


Nope. I don't think that I'll use the fiber again, except as a method to define the end of a day's work; I'll remove the fiber before the next pour.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm not saying I have it figured out by any means. I definitely learned along the way. Regardless, maybe wading through this thread I posted this summer will give you some ideas on how to form for switches and such. I apologize because; its a big thread and the photos are spread out. I'll warn you to just look through the photos and ignore the debate raging on in the posts... it's just distracting. http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/115262/afv/topic/afpgj/13/Default.aspx#170248


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

The gravel base is for balancing out frost heave. A good limestone gravel will repel water or at least keep it from getting under the concrete. It also allows for a solid base. Keep in mind if your pouring concrete you want NO flexure in the road bed. Flexure equals cracks. 

The idea of using the hardware cloth in two layers is sufficient, I dont think you need rebar also. 

As for the forms use whatever you got. Just make sure its supported enough to hold up to the weight of the concrete. I like the idea JJ said about the garden curbing, that is a fiberglass material and if support would do real well. Plus its cheap. 

As for my own experience, I dont have a concrete bed, but Im an Engineer who deals with concrete and also lays it so I understand what it takes to get put down properly. 

Here is an idea I have not heard anyone talk about. I use fibrous material mixed into the concrete if i want added strength. Its more of a pain to lay down but makes the concrete real strong. All it is, is fiberglass fibers dumped into the mix. I wonder if anyone has used it in this application


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By jake3404 on 17 Jan 2011 02:36 PM 
The gravel base is for balancing out frost heave. A good limestone gravel will repel water or at least keep it from getting under the concrete. It also allows for a solid base. Keep in mind if your pouring concrete you want NO flexure in the road bed. Flexure equals cracks. 

The idea of using the hardware cloth in two layers is sufficient, I dont think you need rebar also. 

As for the forms use whatever you got. Just make sure its supported enough to hold up to the weight of the concrete. I like the idea JJ said about the garden curbing, that is a fiberglass material and if support would do real well. Plus its cheap. 

As for my own experience, I dont have a concrete bed, but Im an Engineer who deals with concrete and also lays it so I understand what it takes to get put down properly. 

Here is an idea I have not heard anyone talk about. I use fibrous material mixed into the concrete if i want added strength. Its more of a pain to lay down but makes the concrete real strong. All it is, is fiberglass fibers dumped into the mix. I wonder if anyone has used it in this application 

I concidered the fibrous Material. But Nither Home Depot or Lowes carry it. Have not found a supplier here in Phoenix yet.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

John, 

Check with a local Redi-Mix plant. That is usually where I get it because I have them mix it in with the concrete I order. However, I have bought a bag or two from them. I would check to see if someone in your area would be willing.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

All of my roadbed is concrete. I will post pictures for you soon. In considering how to build your concrete roadbed you need to asy yourseld one question. "How much time, money, and effort do I want to put into my railroad REdoing it. If the answer is none, then do it right the first time. I realize that that is exactly what you think you are doing, but you appear to be cutting to many corners. If you don't get your concrete below the frost line it will move and heave every year and crack into pieces. The rebar will hold the pieces together. The slightly cracked concrete won't make to much difference if the pieces are held together. I use #3 rebar from Home Depot to save money. I don't like all of the plastic tubes in John J's roadbed. This reduces the thickness of his roadbed in those areas and the concrete will crack in those areas. Fiberglass fibers are good but do little to increase the overall strength of the concrete.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I mix in a wheel barrel still simple because it can be moved to the spot I'm doing 
two bags concrete , one of motar mix usually does me 25 ft at a time.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I sure appreciate the info, gentlemen. 

Bob, 10-4 on no expension joints. Makes very good sense.

Josh, thanks for the link, it sounds like a great conversation. I've been compiling a Word doc of related threads, for reference; sounds like this is a very relevant one.

Jake, my gut just told me I needed the gravel, because it's always there beneath foundations; so it's great to have your explanation as to why. Roger all that on the hardware cloth, good to know. Also, I've looked into the bags of fiberglass reinforcement, had the same question you did, couldn't find it locally, but am willing to probe more into the subject.

==Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By rpc7271 on 18 Jan 2011 03:16 PM 
All of my roadbed is concrete. I will post pictures for you soon. In considering how to build your concrete roadbed you need to asy yourseld one question. "How much time, money, and effort do I want to put into my railroad REdoing it. If the answer is none, then do it right the first time. I realize that that is exactly what you think you are doing, but you appear to be cutting to many corners. If you don't get your concrete below the frost line it will move and heave every year and crack into pieces. The rebar will hold the pieces together. The slightly cracked concrete won't make to much difference if the pieces are held together. I use #3 rebar from Home Depot to save money. I don't like all of the plastic tubes in John J's roadbed. This reduces the thickness of his roadbed in those areas and the concrete will crack in those areas. Fiberglass fibers are good but do little to increase the overall strength of the concrete. 
I need all the critique I can get, before the actual work starts, so thanks RPC for the comments and candor. You raise a lot of good points, so permit me to break it down into chunks.

1. What region do you live in? And yes, please post some pics!

2. Re. your question, I'm very comfortable with any re-do's. I'm a mechanical designer by trade, have been bugging folks here on details for some time, analyzed and tweaked the plan (using AutoCad) for about a year now, and am ready to commit. On the other hand, I'm a newbee to garden railroading (but not to construction work), and know that I'll have overlooked many things. But thanks to the comments of several people here, I know there are remedies, and that I can make it work. In short, I'm ready to commit to concrete roadbed, and the pro's far outweigh the con's for me. 

3. I've not seen anyone even remotely suggest that the ribbon needs to be taken down below the frost line; is that what you are suggesting, and is that what you do? In Howard County, Maryland, that would be at least 18", maybe more; how in the world would you create forms for it? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I just can't picture that approach. 

4. But maybe that's not what you're suggesting. Do you use one strand of rebar, or more than that? 

5. What do you do for the cracks?

6. I like John's idea of plastic tubes, but for another reason. Yes, in frost heave zones, they will present a better candidate fractrure area. But I want to plant them beneath the forms, in gravel, and pour over them -- to promote drainage and, especially, allow an easy way of passing wires across the roadbed.

7. How are the fibers good, if they don't increase the strength?

Best regards, thanks again, and be sure to post those pics!
==Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By NTCGRR on 18 Jan 2011 06:01 PM 
I mix in a wheel barrel still simple because it can be moved to the spot I'm doing 
two bags concrete , one of motar mix usually does me 25 ft at a time. 
Hi Marty, 

You sure seem to be The Dude when it comes to this subject! 

Great idea on the wheel barrow. I was mixing in a big plastic tub, then hauling it to the post holes... not fun! Definitly need to add a new 'barrow to the budget, maybe with 2 wheels so's I don't dump the whole thing over.

As to concrete recipe, Bob M. said this:

* 9. Mix about 30-60 pounds concrete and 10-20 pounds mortar with water. I use these proportions because Marty said so. I use this quantity because it gets hard to mix more than this at one time.
* 
(underlining by me)

Now, I'd read your article, and searched, but not found a reference to this. So thanks for your post here (not to question Bob, just curious about confirmation). 

Question, what pounds of bags do you refer to (one can get 60 or 80 of the concrete, right?) 

Also, since you're in the construction business (I gather from your article), what do you think about mixing in glass fibers?

Thanks Marty and Bob,

==Cliff


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in Mesa, Az where the frost line is only a couple of inches, however I grew up in rural pennsylvania where the frost line is usually 4 to 5 feet. I am a structural engineer designing bridges for a living. Because of this I tend to over build things a bit. The very best thing would be for you to get the concrete below the frost line which would be very expensive. You can float it on top of the ground or embedded just a bit but it needs to be designed for it. At a very minimum iIwould suggest 6" deep with 2 - #4 rebar in the center. 4 - #3 would be better. Minimun 1'16" lap splice. Try to stagger the splices if you can. A couple of inches of gravel for drainage wouldn't hurt either. Ignore expansion joints, let the concrete crack where it needs to and let the rebar hold the pieces together. As long as the base under it is good it won't shift or settle. Fiberglass fobers increase the overall strength of the concrete kinda like using 5000 psi concrete instead of 2500 psi concrete. After building a ground level RR in the front yard my backyard RR is being built raised 1' to 4' for the most part. Because I don't want to haul in tons of dirt and then spend months compacting it I am just pouring the concrete full depth! Eventually I will switch to filled cinder blocks with poured concrete on top of it to save concrete. Most of my roadbed is going to be at a 1% grade. I have done some thing similar to John as to the tubes but I used 1/2' tubes in concrete over 1 foot deep so a 1/2" space isn't an issue. Since i am pouring all the concrete first and then filling in around it I install blockouts using 3" PVC so I can run wires and sprinkler lines later. I use 1/8", 1/4" hardboard and 1/2" plywood for forms, but you can use whatever you have available. I even used 4 old 1 foot wide doors once for forms. I like anything i can use over and over. Anything free is also great. The one thing I really like about concrete roadbed is that you can walk on it even with the track on it. A lot of people around here just put it on a bed of gravel and over the years it shifts around. Currently I am using LGB track. To lay the track on the concrete roadbed I fill the underside of a tie about every 6" with GE Silicon caulking, stick it in place and then put a few bricks on top of it so I don't bump it out of place while I am working. Let it set for 24 hours and then remove the bricks.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

HEheheheheh 
The only reason i mix the 3 bag amount is that is what "fits" in my wheel barrow. 
Folks tend to over think this , its a simple ribbon of thin concrete. 
We are not talking driveways up against a house. 
I have over 23,000 ft on conrete roadbed and the only cracks is a cold joint where I stopped and started. but that is ties with rebar together with bailing wire. 

Come look at my steps and storage area, no cracks there either. Clean rebar is great, (meaning no rust at pour). 
enough said. 

I did not say anything about sinking rebar in the ground. you want it to float on top the earth.


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## Chris France (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff, I didn't realize you were in HoCo. I've been leaving the comments to others who have a little more experience, but I did my RR (about a 60'x25' loop with a 30' yard) around 4 years ago with concrete roadbed down here in Laurel. I used rebar and haven't really noticed any heave or cracking. Not to say I don't have any, but I haven't noticed any and it hasn't effected operations at all. If you'd like to come down some time and check it out let me know.

Chris


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## benshell (Oct 1, 2008)

Marty, why do you mix concrete and mortar? I don't understand that detail. 

This was been a really interesting thread though! I'm going to start pouring concrete roadbed in a couple months, or whenever it dries out enough to start. Here in Sacramento I don't think I need to worry about frost, but I am concerned about drainage and also an area which will be fresh fill dirt. I've considered that I might want to temporarily use a gravel roadbed in that area and wait another year before pouring concrete. Thoughts?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well Josh, thanks for that link.... 

Well, I just read all 13 pages of it, and am trying not to get discouraged, but it was pretty tough "living through" the first half. I say "living through," because I'm not even at the point where you were, when you started that post! My gosh... !   ! 

Anyway, lotsa great insights there, nonetheless. I too loved JJ's fastener idea, using the wire clips. Here's a couple of add-on's to that concept. First, SS wire. Second, "well nuts." The second is probably overkill (but who knows???), but they are nuts embedded in a rubber insert, with lots of compliance. I think the wire clip is perfectly adequate though; I',m gonna go with that. 

As to other issues, well, my heart rate is still up over whether concrete is viable at all... (!) But I've decided on this concrete roadbed method, for better or worse. Still, so many issues raised on that thread... Todd Alin, My Brutha, did you really mean it when you were talking about glueing down the ballast with the turkey baster? Have you really done that, and have it last? I'd love it if that worked, but does it??? 

Anyway, I'm just tryin' to calm down, be at peace with this method, and realize that one way or another, I'm just going to need to dive in and go for it next spring. 

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By rpc7271 on 20 Jan 2011 04:05 PM 
I live in Mesa, Az where the frost line is only a couple of inches, however I grew up in rural pennsylvania where the frost line is usually 4 to 5 feet. I am a structural engineer designing bridges for a living. Because of this I tend to over build things a bit. The very best thing would be for you to get the concrete below the frost line which would be very expensive. You can float it on top of the ground or embedded just a bit but it needs to be designed for it. At a very minimum iIwould suggest 6" deep with 2 - #4 rebar in the center. 4 - #3 would be better. Minimun 1'16" lap splice. Try to stagger the splices if you can. A couple of inches of gravel for drainage wouldn't hurt either. Ignore expansion joints, let the concrete crack where it needs to and let the rebar hold the pieces together. As long as the base under it is good it won't shift or settle. Fiberglass fobers increase the overall strength of the concrete kinda like using 5000 psi concrete instead of 2500 psi concrete. After building a ground level RR in the front yard my backyard RR is being built raised 1' to 4' for the most part. Because I don't want to haul in tons of dirt and then spend months compacting it I am just pouring the concrete full depth! Eventually I will switch to filled cinder blocks with poured concrete on top of it to save concrete. Most of my roadbed is going to be at a 1% grade. I have done some thing similar to John as to the tubes but I used 1/2' tubes in concrete over 1 foot deep so a 1/2" space isn't an issue. Since i am pouring all the concrete first and then filling in around it I install blockouts using 3" PVC so I can run wires and sprinkler lines later. I use 1/8", 1/4" hardboard and 1/2" plywood for forms, but you can use whatever you have available. I even used 4 old 1 foot wide doors once for forms. I like anything i can use over and over. Anything free is also great. The one thing I really like about concrete roadbed is that you can walk on it even with the track on it. A lot of people around here just put it on a bed of gravel and over the years it shifts around. Currently I am using LGB track. To lay the track on the concrete roadbed I fill the underside of a tie about every 6" with GE Silicon caulking, stick it in place and then put a few bricks on top of it so I don't bump it out of place while I am working. Let it set for 24 hours and then remove the bricks. 
Thank you sir, for your very rapid and specific comments!

Wow, that's a big paragraph; my eyes aren't great, and I've had three beers, so permit me to break it down into my takeaways.


>>>I live in Mesa, Az where the frost line is only a couple of inches, however I grew up in rural pennsylvania where the frost line is usually 4 to 5 feet. I am a structural engineer designing bridges for a living. Because of this I tend to over build things a bit. 

Roger all that. Thank you for your instruction here.

>>>The very best thing would be for you to get the concrete below the frost line which would be very expensive. 
Well, yeah... but I don't think that's what you're suggesting.

>>>You can float it on top of the ground or embedded just a bit but it needs to be designed for it. 
You mean the concrete, right? I'm intending to trench into the ground where needed, or have the (compacted) soil surround the concrete, by at least 5". My terrain is a rollercoaster, but one way or another I'd like 6" depth for the 'crete.

>>>At a very minimum iIwould suggest 6" deep with 2 - #4 rebar in the center. 4 - #3 would be better. 
That's the sort of detail I was wondering about, thank you. But what about 2 layers of beefy, galvanized hardware cloth? Would not that distribute the reinforcement better? Or maybe one runs the risk of the steel coming too close to the perimeter? 

>>>Minimun 1'16" lap splice. Try to stagger the splices if you can. 
I'd never have though about that; thanks!

>>>A couple of inches of gravel for drainage wouldn't hurt either. 
Jake says this: _The gravel base is for balancing out frost heave. A good limestone gravel will repel water or at least keep it from getting under the concrete. It also allows for a solid base. Keep in mind if your pouring concrete you want NO flexure in the road bed. Flexure equals cracks._ 
Two inches? Well, that's OK. A little more work, but I don't mind putting in the effort to reduce the heave effects. Being a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, I just want to understand why, or at least how much









>>>Ignore expansion joints, let the concrete crack where it needs to and let the rebar hold the pieces together. As long as the base under it is good it won't shift or settle. 
Right, Bob and I just worked this out.

>>>Fiberglass fobers increase the overall strength of the concrete kinda like using 5000 psi concrete instead of 2500 psi concrete. 
OK. Proabably a good thing, if you can get it. 10-4.

>>>After building a ground level RR in the front yard my backyard RR is being built raised 1' to 4' for the most part. Because I don't want to haul in tons of dirt and then spend months compacting it I am just pouring the concrete full depth! 
Roger that. I'm on my first build, and it's taken 2 years to create a terrace for a small railroad in the back yard. The reason is that it's severely sloped, had tons of huge trees (and their root balls... don't even get me started!) that needed removal, and required months of back-breaking retaining wall construction. I finally back-filled this narrow terrace, with not much room to spare for errors in the track plan, and am hoping that my roadbed will be at least semi-permanent! 

>>>Eventually I will switch to filled cinder blocks with poured concrete on top of it to save concrete. 
Kinda like Josh's method?

>>>Most of my roadbed is going to be at a 1% grade. 
Mine's planned for 2% max on the main line, 2.5% max on sidings or spurs leading into storage.

>>>I have done some thing similar to John as to the tubes but I used 1/2' tubes in concrete over 1 foot deep so a 1/2" space isn't an issue. Since i am pouring all the concrete first and then filling in around it I install blockouts using 3" PVC so I can run wires and sprinkler lines later. 
OK, 3" pvc pipes for those purposes is a great idea.

>>>I use 1/8", 1/4" hardboard and 1/2" plywood for forms, but you can use whatever you have available. I even used 4 old 1 foot wide doors once for forms. I like anything i can use over and over. Anything free is also great. 
Roger that. I was able to get 6 4x8 masonite sheets on Freecycle, 1/4" thick, and I'll use those.

>>>The one thing I really like about concrete roadbed is that you can walk on it even with the track on it. A lot of people around here just put it on a bed of gravel and over the years it shifts around. 
I like that notion of stability. I'm going to step on it, no matter how hard I try not to.

>>>Currently I am using LGB track. To lay the track on the concrete roadbed I fill the underside of a tie about every 6" with GE Silicon caulking, stick it in place and then put a few bricks on top of it so I don't bump it out of place while I am working. Let it set for 24 hours and then remove the bricks. 
Not that I've researched it, but that's the first I've heard of using silocone for this. It's compliant, replaceable, cheap. It can't hold the track down vertically, but will (for at least a certain number of years) hold it laterally. Very interesting.

Thank you sir,

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By NTCGRR on 20 Jan 2011 04:08 PM 
HEheheheheh 
The only reason i mix the 3 bag amount is that is what "fits" in my wheel barrow. 
Folks tend to over think this , its a simple ribbon of thin concrete. 
We are not talking driveways up against a house. 
I have over 23,000 ft on conrete roadbed and the only cracks is a cold joint where I stopped and started. but that is ties with rebar together with bailing wire. 

Come look at my steps and storage area, no cracks there either. Clean rebar is great, (meaning no rust at pour). 
enough said. 

I did not say anything about sinking rebar in the ground. you want it to float on top the earth. 
Hi Marty, it's an honor to hear from you. 

Not trying to make it all about me, just trying to say Thanks from a Newbie to all you guys who know what you're talking about. 

It's reassuring that your recipe is holding up... in Nebraska, right?

Now, come clean Marty: what's your preferred rebar / reinforcement recipe? Would you recommend more than one strand? Would you recommend two or more levels of large-gauge galvanized hardware cloth? Do you make sure that you rebar is rust free? If so, how? Do you oil it, if it hasn't been oiled already? 

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Chris France on 20 Jan 2011 04:08 PM 
Cliff, I didn't realize you were in HoCo. I've been leaving the comments to others who have a little more experience, but I did my RR (about a 60'x25' loop with a 30' yard) around 4 years ago with concrete roadbed down here in Laurel. I used rebar and haven't really noticed any heave or cracking. Not to say I don't have any, but I haven't noticed any and it hasn't effected operations at all. If you'd like to come down some time and check it out let me know.

Chris









Wow Chris, I'd love to see your layout, and talk about the details. 

It's reassuring that someone around here has figured it out!









Thanks for the invite, I'll get back to you! 

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By benshell on 20 Jan 2011 04:39 PM 
Marty, why do you mix concrete and mortar? I don't understand that detail. 

This was been a really interesting thread though! I'm going to start pouring concrete roadbed in a couple months, or whenever it dries out enough to start. Here in Sacramento I don't think I need to worry about frost, but I am concerned about drainage and also an area which will be fresh fill dirt. I've considered that I might want to temporarily use a gravel roadbed in that area and wait another year before pouring concrete. Thoughts? I envy you Ben. I'm a native Modestan, but have given up on the hope to come back home. Instead, I'm trying to make the best of my Maryland reality, and conform it to my rediscovered railroading ambitions. 

And Maryland better frickin' behave, frost heave or no, 'cause I've got track to lay!









===Cliff


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff 
I buy it clean, our Concrete plant keeps all rebar in doors and dry. no rust and no reason to oil it. 
I like 3/8" because I can bend it over my knee as I layit in the curves. 
I have many other photos listed in my goldmemebers pages or do a search in ackives in roadbed forum. 
shows tunnel portals etc. single rebar is good enough. 










And NO the rebar was not installed at the photo, I think I had to go get some.










See what one year later does...




















A Garden railroader without a vision, will DIE...


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Cliffy, 

I think the structural engineer is correct in all he is saying about frost heave. However, I think what we have to do is keep this in perspective. All the guys who are currently using concrete roadbed are hitting on it without saying it. 

We got to consider footprint. If we are talking about huge chunks of concrete such as bridge abutments and roadways and such, heave is a major concern. However we gotta look at the footprint of your railbed. I would venture to guess 4"-5" is the max width. The heave of the frost line is not as significant on a small narrow concrete "ribbon". Your gonna have some frost heave, it is a natural thing. Yes you will have to deal with it, but it is not going to be a major problem all the time. You will have cracking from time to time, but using the rebar as I suggested and others earlier is going to help balance out any heave. 

There are a couple guys who have lined it out on how to lay the concrete and I think they are good plans. My advise is just do it. I think you have significantly looked into this and I believe you have made a good decision in using concrete. 

For the sake of others I think this thread has been very helpful. I will be using a ladder method on my railroad when the "white stuff" melts but this thread has helped me consider concrete.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

THE BATCH PLANT.









What I hate is moving the bags of concret around and lifting them. So I do this


Moving the bag form the loader to the mixer is easier for me because I don't have to lift it.

Note the wheelbarrow has two wheels.

That is how I move it to where I need it after mixing.

I mixed in wheelbarrow a coupld of times. I am just too lazy.










Getting old sucks.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

John, I just purchased a double wheelbarrow like yours. Makes moving things a lot easier than my old wobbly 1 wheel one. 

Marty, in your last photo, you show raised concrete. Are you affixing the ties somehow to the concrete or simply piling a generous helping of ballast gravel around it all and letting it float? 

Dave


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave 
all the screws that hold the rial to the ties is removed to allow rail to exspand and contract. the ties are screwed to the roadbed maybe every 3 ft or so, (hammer drill and tapcon screws) 
the roadbed sheds water and if,,IF any frost heave then it may all lift 1/4" or so. 
any other material you use MAY frost heave. its been so dry here over the years . shreckage is causeing me more problems, with dips. 



























Back when I double tracked the main line.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks; you've got some pretty nice wide curves there; guess it helps to have real estate


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

I love the many, many great photos in this thread!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I had to remove the old line and push it in to allow space for the new double track.










then removed it










see its NOT a big deal..


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Marty and Jake.

Thought I'd throw up a couple of pics to illustrate where I'm at.









Here's a model I did last winter (minus the house), showing the hoped-for results (until they changed; but it's still close). Last spring, I built the observation tower and bridge at the center / right (I did have help on setting the posts though), and then I began on the retaining wall.










Above is another shot of the model. The end at the right was particularly tough for retaining wall building, because of the slope. Anyway, the idea is to lay the concrete roadbed on relatively "smooth" terrain, get the drainage right, and then to build concrete mountain shells (with access hatches) in the more dramatic areas. BTW, the large brown building models are major mines of the Comstock (a key objective for me) in upper Virginia City NV, circa 1880.











The above pic shows where I ended up in November. All the rataining wall rocks you see were dug up from this yard, during the tree removal & terracing process of '09 (it's really rocky soil). In the distance, you see that taller retaining wall: about 4' tall at its highest, and 3' thick in the base. Below is a pic of that end:










The next big step is preparing for the roadbed next spring. Thanks again everyone for your helping me out with the plans and details, and for sharing all your experience. Boy, do I appreciate it!!

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Guys, 
Well, I think I'm about done with my questions, but after going these posts and my notes, I had just a few smaller ones left. 

Gravel base: 
- Material: Jake, you mention using limestone for the gravel base, is bluestone just as good? I’ve got a half truckload of it still. 
- Size: Mine's about ½” to 1” in size, but maybe I should get something finer? 
- Thickness: is about 2” of gravel the right amount? 

Marty, about your recipe: sorry to sound dense, but it sounds like you’re mixing 2:1 concrete-to-mortar, right? I’ve got 80 lb bags of concrete, will be buying 50lb bags of mortar, and didn't want to make dumb assumptions on these important proportions.

Last thing, what’s everyone's preferred type / brand of concrete and mortar? Lotsa choices out there...

Thanks once again, 
===Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I said limestone because that is the most abundant rock on the planet. Most construction base is limestone. As for Bluestone I've never worked with it so I'm not sure, however it could be limestone under a different name. Considering your in MD, I would venture to say you have a limestone material. The key to your base is a mixture of large rock and fines. The name is usually Base Course or Pit run, depending on the quarry you get it from. I usually suggest a 3/4" Base Course, the largest rock is 3/4" diameter (for strength) and sizes all the way down to small fines (for the stability of the material). A pic of your material will tell me pretty quickly how well it will do. If you do take one, mix the pile up prior to taking the pic so I can see what kind of fines you have in the material. 

The drawings you did are excellent. I love the observation over your layout. It gives a great view of everything. The observation bridge is also a very unique design and also an excellent feature. You've got all you need and I think it will be a lot of fun for you. I hope to get mine going this Spring as well. I have tried to put mine in AutoCAD, but it isnt working on my new computer and I dont want to spend the money on a new version. Oh well, I guess the drawing I've done by hand will have to do. Good luck and post pics of the progress, I think a builders diary would be great I intend to do the same once I break ground. 

EDIT: Sorry forgot to answer about the thickness. When laying a sidewalk the suggestion is about 2-3" of base course. In this case your not supporting as much weight, I think 2" is more than enough. I would use 2". Go a little overkill to try and help with the frost heave problems.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

BTW, what program did you use for your designing?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff 
thats fine. Motar just helps it to bond and be stronger.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Jake, thanks for those specifics. I'll talk with my quarry guy, and tell him what you said. He'll probably understand exactly what you're describing. It also makes sanse to me that the sizes should vary, to progressively take the heave forces and act like a cushion of sorts for the concrete.

Thanks for the compliments. The tower was sure fun to imagine and create on the computer, but it was sure a challenge for me to build! There were many times when, after dropping a hammer from 15' up in the air where I was preceriously perched, that I wondered what the heck I was thinking. It's worked out fun though, with the bridge and stairs and stuff.

As to software, I used Solidworks. Unfortunately, it's hard to get for home / hobby use, unless you're a student (or know one, but I didn't say that!). If you need 3D, maybe check out Google's free Sketchup product http://sketchup.google.com/ . They're doing some truly amazing things with that. But if you don't need 3D, and you do need an decent alternative to AutoCad, I'd recommend Dessault Systems' Draftsight product. http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/ It's free, and reads DWG files. But it's 2D only.

Huh, I just saw your "EDIT" pop up; guess we're doing this at the same time, cool. That's great to know about hte thickness, Jake, thanks! So here's a recap on what I'm planning for thus far:

- 1/4" masonite side forms, lots of cheap stakes, no super-elevation
- periodic 1" pvc pipes laid transversely beneath the forms for wiring cross-over
- single strand of "clean" 3/8" rebar down the center 
- rebar wired together at the ends, 12-18" overlap
- 2" gravel (3/4" "base coarse" with fines mixed in)
- 4" of 'crete (mixed 2:1 with mortar)

That's the brief version... my "report" is 25 pages long now!









On "builder's diary," do you mean a long thread, or something more stand-alone like a blog or article? Either way, great idea. Looking forward to seeing your progress too!

Cheers,
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Marty. What's your favorite type / brand of concrete and mortar?


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah, the builders log is just a thread you start here just updating us on your progress as you go. I think there was a guy who posted a link to his in one of your threads. I thought it was a great idea for us new-comers to see what and how it is done. 

As for the AutoCAD, I sure like designing in 3D. I have briefly played with Solidworks and really liked it. But I'm mostly an AutoCAD guy. I bought a program a while back called 3rd Plan-it. It is a pretty good program for indoor layout design, not so much for outdoor. I might have to bite the bullet and get a new AutoCAD. I use it all the time at work but I really want something for home. Too bad I aint an Engineering student anymore... 

The type/brand you use for mix is not too big of a deal. I wouldnt use the cheapest nor would I use the most expensive. That is what i can tell you.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By jake3404 on 22 Jan 2011 09:17 AM 
Yeah, the builders log is just a thread you start here just updating us on your progress as you go. I think there was a guy who posted a link to his in one of your threads. I thought it was a great idea for us new-comers to see what and how it is done. 

As for the AutoCAD, I sure like designing in 3D. I have briefly played with Solidworks and really liked it. But I'm mostly an AutoCAD guy. I bought a program a while back called 3rd Plan-it. It is a pretty good program for indoor layout design, not so much for outdoor. I might have to bite the bullet and get a new AutoCAD. I use it all the time at work but I really want something for home. Too bad I aint an Engineering student anymore... 

The type/brand you use for mix is not too big of a deal. I wouldnt use the cheapest nor would I use the most expensive. That is what i can tell you. 

I use what ever is on sale. I have bought a broken bags of mixed concrete, Portland cement and stucco / mortar all throwen together on a pallet for 25 bucks.

I have 30 gal rubbermaid garbage cans to put the stuff in to keep it dry. It does way better than the paper sacks as you can see in some of my pictures.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Jake and John. I was a little suprised at the cost deltas for differing kinds of mixed concrete, so it's good to know that I don't need anything on the expensive end of the scale. 

I can relate on the Acad, Jake. Been using it at work since "Version 2". My company just stopped its home use license (not sure why; it's free for them!), so now, no AutoCad on my personal box, and I feel like a fish out of water... or a carpenter who's just all his hammers stolen.







I've heard of 3D planit, not used it though. Good luck guy.

Next spring, I'll do as you suggest and start a thread like Manco / Josh did, and put up the blow-by-blow. For now, I'm just warm and cozy inside. After the retaining wall rock-humping last summer / fall, this is actually the first winter I've enjoyed (I'm a Californian originally, now in Mayland), because I needed the rest!









==Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I was warm and cozzy today. I was warm and cozzy working on my layout. I was so warm and cozzy I took my shirt off









73 degrees today


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I drove home from Bubbas tonight in a new snow storm, 35 mph down the highway, All the chickens ahead of me.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 22 Jan 2011 07:16 PM 
I drove home from Bubbas tonight in a new snow storm, 35 mph down the highway, All the chickens ahead of me. 

When I fixed X ray equipment in Rual Illinois. I would carry a change of cloths in the car Because some times I would get stuck at a hospital due to winter storms and snow drifts. And Have to say over night. One time I stayed three days


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, it took 4 hours to dig out today from the snow... So I'm having to spend a vacation day  

If I could poke you concrete dudes with another question: How do you handle uncoupling? 

Perhaps you've all converted to Kadee's, and are just rtv'ing the magnets onto concrete? Seems simple. You can control those magnets via DCC with the proper "stationary" decoder, right? John, Marty, Greg E., others, how do you do it? 

Currently, I have all hook-and-loop or Bachmann knuckle couplers. I HATE the former, because I can't get them apart by hand, even with only two cars on the frickin' kitchen table! After looking into it, the remote-op LGB uncouplers aren't suitable for extended outdoor use. I like the latter, but still, one would need a mechanical device to plunge the little tabs up, and that device probably wouldn't fare well with ice and snow and so forth. 

When I was considering a ladder method of roadbed, I was also holding out the option of a mechanical uncoupler, perhaps of my own design. But since that would require a pocket in the concrete, which would only collect ice and thus fracture the roadbed, I suppose that Kadee couplers are almost a given with the concrete roadbed approach. Would you agree? 

Put another way: is there any reliable means of uncoupling that stands up to the elements, only needs to function in warmer weather, and deals with the cheaper / typical / non-Kadee couplers? Or must I factor in coupler conversions (to Kadee) if I want to reliably uncouple anything? 

Thanks for your comments, they're ALWAYS instructive, 
===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kadee's and magnetic uncoupler magnets in the track. You can take a flat stick and put between the couplers and turn to uncouple manually, or lift one car over the other. Easy. 

No other reliable remote uncoupling... closest thing would be to try to weather proof an LGB uncoupler and use LGB and or Aristo couplers, but no one has ever reported satisfaction with this. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, that was the engineering realization, with budget ramifications, that was only just dawning on me. Regardless of roadbed approach. Any mechanical push-ups, even the simplest vertical pneumatically-actuated surface, would be trashed by the elements, and destroy the surrounding concrete roadbed with the ice-welcoming pocket that would have to be present. So solid-state is the way to go. No moving parts, that should be the driving philosphy. I appreciate the sanity check.

I'm sure that you are controlling your uncouplers via DCC, correct? Or with software? Or -- don't tell me -- your phone??? (VBG!) 

===Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm going with Accucraft couplers and hooking up uncoupling levers on all my equipment. Functions just like the real thing.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By jake3404 on 27 Jan 2011 03:55 PM 
I'm going with Accucraft couplers and hooking up uncoupling levers on all my equipment. Functions just like the real thing. 

Hey Jake
What scale are you running?

I am just interested.

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Do you mean levers on board the cars / locos? Or a track-mounted device? I assume the former; but if the latter, I'd like to hear more about it.
===Cliff


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

He means on the cars just like the big boys do. In the garden we can walk with our trains and be the breakman (break 'em apart man) as well as the engineer. 

The old deltons had that feature but are too big for my tastes. 

John


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By John J on 27 Jan 2011 06:44 PM 
Posted By jake3404 on 27 Jan 2011 03:55 PM 
I'm going with Accucraft couplers and hooking up uncoupling levers on all my equipment. Functions just like the real thing. 

Hey Jake
What scale are you running?

I am just interested.

JJ 


1:20.3 ... I'm interested 3 ft narrow gauge in my area. I'm building models to represent some of the equipment that ran here. I am not building the line to follow any specific prototype. More or less a place to run my trains. My railline is called the Black Hills Railroad, which coincidentially was a real company that had grade surveyed but never layed a rail. But the name helps tie all my interests together.

As for the couplers, i looked at the Kadee ones and I like them. I would expect them to be just as reliable as the scale #58's that I use on my HO layout. But I liked the detail on the Accucraft ones better. The option of installing lift bars onto my equipment to handle uncoupling kind of adds a little more to the whole experience I think. I couldn't see where I could add this feature to the Kadee's, easily. Plus, I dont have to worry about uncoupling magnets...


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake,
Your layout goung to be raised? Having those working cut levers sounds great but if the track is at your feet it may not be too practical.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

No other reliable remote uncoupling 
Cliff, 

While I can't claim it was reliable, as I hardly use the loco, I did convert a tender to 'remote uncoupling' using a spare intermittent button ("B") on my Aristo TE, using the accessory controller on the rx in the loco. 

The mechanism was a solenoid from an Atlas HO remote switch. I mounted it vertically in the air tank on the rear platform of the tender and hooked the armature (metal rod inside the solenoid that now goes up and down) to a wire sticking out the back of the tender pilot beam. That wire was hooked to the coupler pin. 

Just wanted to get you thinking of other possibilities.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By Paul Burch on 29 Jan 2011 09:38 AM 
Jake,
Your layout goung to be raised? Having those working cut levers sounds great but if the track is at your feet it may not be too practical.


It is not raised in as much as being 36" off the ground or such. It is a mountain theme and things will be at ground level in certain areas. In my yard area the railroad is 6" off the ground. But the operator stands in my patio area which is dug down 36" below that ground level and next to the yard. So it is at a comfortable height. The only place I can see this being a problem is at my sawmill where the track sits at ground level. Cutting off cars there will require reaching down to pull the lever. 

I have a solution, although I have not tested it (I'm still in preplanning phase like Cliff). If I mount a small hook on the end of a small wood dowel and put a 45 degree bend on the hook, I should be able to reach the lever and then "pull" it to cut the car off without having to bend over. In theory it should work.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very interesting, Pete. Makes sense, because almost all of my uncoupling would be from the tender. I'm new to this, so I hadn't realized or even considered that fact before. So yeah, yo've got me thinking!

Also, I was reading my DCC book this morning (my wife gave it to me for Christmas), and it actually had a little article on using DCC to remotely operate a coupler in general. I'd dismissed the idea, becuase there's no way to do it on all the cars. But in light of the point you raise, one (e.g., me) would mainly need to install that functionality in the tender.... huh... 

What kind of couplers were you using?

===Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

For Pete's project. It would seem to me that you would have to use a Accucraft coupler because they have the feature of pulling up the "trip" bar to uncouple a car. The kadee's dont have that feature without heavily modifying the coupler.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jake, 
Regarding your stick uncoupler... Finger tips are sensitive enough to reckon when to stop lifting, a stick extension might lift the tender off the rails. 
What about a trigger on one end and the other has a moving lifter. Set the stick on the ties and then trigger the lifting bar... I see 2 hinges and a length of stiff wire down the side of your stick, connected say 1/2" off the stick. Lift the top hinges arm and the lower arm moves the same... 

Ah yes the new and improved stick! 

John


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