# FWRR Ruby firing problems - redux



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been working on my FWRR for the past year, attempting to persuade the fire not to go out when the smokebox is shut.  She steams beautifully as long as it is open a crack.

I have printed all the threads here - thanks to Dave H. and others who have given freely of their time and energy.  The stainless burner mesh makes the fire behave quietly, but as soon as you close the door and start moving, a big globule of oil/water pops out of the chuff pipe and seems to block the airflow around the smokebox.  The chimney is only 1/4" diameter, but it is quite long so I am reluctant to try to drill it out!










The apparent next step is to open up the hole in the bottom of the smokebox to improve the airflow - but I ran into a snag:










This photo shows the smokebox has a big hole (green arrow marks the perimeter) but there's a big chunk of saddle casting blocking the hole (red arrow.)

I may try a longer chuff pipe, with the end bent to deposit oil/water on the side of the chimney where it opens out, with the hope that the globule will disperse and not block the pipe when it runs down into the smokebox.  [There's a lovely 'crack' and a puff of blue smoke when it does - just like the 2-cyl Mitch-Cal Shay.]

Perhaps my best solution will be a more drastic approach - install a better lubricator with a valve to control oil flow.  Anyone have any other suggestions?


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

Pete, 

I change out all my Accucraft lubricators with Roundhouse Engineering ones. The Accucraft feeds way too much oil and the engines become gummy messes. I cut off the Accucraft fittings and spice them on to the Roundhouse lubricators by silver soldering and using a piece of brass 1/4" rod drilled thru as a splice. 

The other change I make is to open up the air hole in the bottom of the smokebox. I understand that your opening is mainly blocked by the saddle. Any room in front at all to open up a hole? A small amount makes a big change. When I do this I don't need to open up the smokebox door to light up. I light up thru the open hole on the bottom. 

Mike McCormack 
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## Ray C. (Jan 2, 2008)

I had the same problem with mine. Lengthening the exhaust pipe and once around the track with a rubber tube extension over that pipe to re-direct the condensate, engine runs like a charm.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete - On my old ruby I took the chuff pipe and cut it off just below the nut for the stack. I left it open and any oil water can spray out the stack but it isnt much. I have had no issues ever since that and think it could help you problem. I also bend it in an S shape to center it in the hold for the stack. The stack that I installed also has a small hole since it was an electric Accucraft stack from the legend 4-4-0 I think. You may also want to check that you dont have the larger jet from the factory, I did have another ruby that gave me al lsorts of burner troubles that had the larger jet from the factory by accident?????Maybe..... I installed a new jet of the smaller orfice and it lit without a hitch. That didnt burn good either since it was puttin gin too much gas and not enough oxygen.


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## Brooks (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like you have 2 problems: 1) slugs of water/oil hit the sides of the smokestack, flash to steam/smoke and snuff the fire. 2) Insufficient air to sustain fire due to combustion byproducts building up in the smokebox. 

I solve 1) by cutting off the crimp in the exhaust line, allowing the water/oil slugs to shoot out the stack. 

I solve 2) by cleaning the gas jet: A tiny bit of debri, often too small to see with the naked eye, will affect the squirt of gas out the nozzle, making it a non circular pattern. This non-circular pattern of gas will not entrain oxygen the way it's meant to, thus forcing the burner to receive a rich mixture. The rich mixture will not burn unless it can get extra oxygen from backflow from the smokebox. If the smokebox is filled with combustion products like CO2 and CO, then the backflow won't provide sufficient oxygen to overcome the rich mixture delivered to the burner by the dirty jet. So, you can either open the smokebox door, to give another path for the combustion products to escape and the fresh air to enter, or you can open up the holes in the bottom of the smokebox to ditto, or you can clean the jet to stop the too-rich mixture in the first place. 

It often helps my locos to run the first few laps with the smokebox door open a bit. After the unit heats up, I can then close the door; perhaps the cold metal inhibits the flow of combustion byproducts out the stack, just as a cold house chimney will impede the flow of fireplace smoke out the chimney.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, thanks guys. Ray suggests lengthening the exhaust/chuff pipe, which I figured might help. Jason suggests shortening it - which also sounds like it will help! I guess I'll have to cut it and make up a couple of extensions: the long and the short. Now where did I put my silver solder....


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## Brooks (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't solder the extentions I add to an exhaust pipe. I just slide a slightly bigger diameter brass pipe over the original (possibly trimmed) copper pipe. My locos all seem to have a air hole cut in the smokebox under or near the base of the exhaust pipe. Thus, any priming water or oil that does not get shot out the stack will simply slide down the brass pipe interior and fall to the track. Or, once the pipe gets good and hot, the water flashes to steam, but the pipe generally constrains it and keeps the steam from backflowing into the flue to snuff the fire.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Brooks,

It's not snuffing the fire directly, I think.  Concensus seems to be that the Rubys need air flow through the smokebox - this particular model has a long narrow stack and a big cylinder saddle, so the large oil/water globule seems to plop out of the exhaust and block the chinmey effect.  The lack of a hole at the bottom seems to make it worse.

I've asked Cliff at Accucraft to send me a spare pipe so I can experiment with longer and shorter pipes...


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

I was having the same problem with the firebox door.  One day while I building up steam I tried a high-tech experiment. I held a smokeing match at the slightly open door to see if this thing was starving for air. It wasn't. The smoke blew away from the opening. The flue pipe or "smoke stack" is too small to handle the heat in the burner and pressure builds up and blows the flame out. 

I'm not ready just yet to mess with the stack so I removed the fake lugs and bolts on the firebox door and drilled the bolt holes out to 1/16.  Wala. I now run with my door closed. I have a 3/4 inch sleeve over the end of the burnner so the flame stays out of the firebox. I'm a happy steamer.  .......... Ray


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray - interesting stuff. I'll have to experiment with that approach.

When you say 'firebox door', do you mean the smokebox?  [Firebox is usually at the other end where the coal goes in.]


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Opps! You have found me out. I am a greenhorn with this new hobby of mine. Yes, it is the smokebox door. I checked the cost of replaceing the door before I drilled the holes and went for the temporary modification. For 22 yrs. I have been in the heating and cooling business and this burner problem has made a monkey out of me. I don't yet have the problem solved but at least for now it is under control. ... My brother put this kit together, got frustrated and gave it to me. I have had a ball reversing the gasket he installed backwards, reversing the timing to get it to run forwards and I love the burner challenge. .... Now, had I bought my Ruby, I would be some kind of mad. I really enjoy it though and I now believe I am hooked on steam. ...... Ray


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The FWRR problems reached the top of the workshop queue today, so I started to think about how I was going to get a better out-draft.  I couldn't see any way of making holes in the smokebox door without them being very obtrusive.

One possibility was to cut the chuff/exhaust pipe so that the globs of oily water don't block the stack.  I removed the stack and took a look at it - 5/16 ID and 9/16 OD, making 1/8" thick walls.  I could definitely see drilling that out to 7/16, but I don't have a lathe and it is a bit long.  I thought of chopping the top and bottom flange off, drilling them out and re-connecting them with a thin-walled tube.  A little experimenting and I found that 15/16th brass tube will just fit through the hole in the smokebox where the stack goes, so a new stack from tube became an option.

I recalled I have a stack made up for a 'big hauler' bash which might work - but I also have a nice turned tapered brass stack from Trackside Details.  So with bits from the former, I made up (silver soldered) a new stack:










This one is 7/16" ID, about what the drilled stack would be.  So I'll try this and see how I like the look of it...  what do you think?










_I guess it will look nicer with a coat of hi-temp black!  The loco's back is off as it is getting r/c next._


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm in great antisipation to see how this works for you.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete - the Ft. Wilderness locos seem to share this problem. What about cutting a notch in the bottom of the smokebox forward of the saddle? A thin notch made, say, with a Dremel cutoff wheel shouldn't be too noticeable, and would allow pressure to escape (if that's the problem). Just a thought.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 03/22/2008 8:31 PM
Pete - the Ft. Wilderness locos seem to share this problem. What about cutting a notch in the bottom of the smokebox forward of the saddle? A thin notch made, say, with a Dremel cutoff wheel shouldn't be too noticeable, and would allow pressure to escape (if that's the problem). Just a thought.


Dwight,

Nice idea, but unfortunately the smokebox door is mounted in a ring of brass 5/16" thick (being the front of the smokebox) !  The smokebox saddle on top of the cylinders extends almost to the front - there's probably 1/16" behind the door ring before the saddle starts. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif

But it's a thought.  The smokebox front could be cut back at the bottom and a hole cut in the floor.  I'll try that if this new stack doesn't solve the whole problem. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2008)

2 cents worth: 

Just for grins and giggles, last night, I removed my stack leaving just the chuff/exaust pipe sticking up. Not much for looks. I then removed the 3/4 inch long sleeve that is on my burner. I fired it off and closed the door. The flame poped back to the burner and I had steam in just a few min. Cool! Ok, well then, I need a larger dia. stack. 

I have to look at this as though it were a furnace I would be working on. Not much difference really. The flue pipe, "smoke stack" must be able to handle the btu's the burner is putting out. With the sleeve on my burner, (decreased btu's), I am getting by with a "holey" smokebox door and the existing stack. I remove the sleeve, (increased btu's), and I had to remove the stack for this system to vent. 

If I have a Rheem, 75,000 btu furnace and decide to make a 100,000 btu furnace out of it, (I would never do that) but if I did and assuming the the furnace is gas and naturally aspirated (oh how I love that phrase), I would not be able to leave the existing flue pipe. It would not be large enough. But, I would never ever cut a hole in the bottom of the furnace to help the system vent. I have to believe that the opening in the bottom of the "smokebox" is for drainage of condensate and was never designed to help the system vent. 

With all the various modefications being done to the Ruby burners, equil time my have to be given to the flue, (stack) size. I can see how the different size jets being used on the Rubys would influence the need to run with the smokebox door open. I have no idea what size jet I have because it is not stamped with any number. That's goofy. I called called Accucraft for a replacement and what they sent me was way too big so I still use the original whaterver size it is. I am watching to see how Petes new stack works out.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

With a coat of flat black hi-temp, it sort of reminds me of Sir Topham Hatt ? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif










Ina ny case, us Brits aren't big fans of spark arresters, so I reckon I could get used to this new look.  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2008)

*My Ruby's condensate trap.*

To keep the condensate water and oil from putting out my fire, I made and installed a trap. I love the steam and smoke comeing out of the stack and so I didn't want to lose that effect by dumping the water down on the track. I had also hoped the size of the trap would catch most of the water on take-off. I'm judgeing it catches about 70%.

I have run it about 4 times just as you see in the photo and the fire has never gone out. There is enough heat in the smokebox to turn the condensate back to steam and burn the oil. While I was fitting my new stack on the box last night, I had to remove the trap for working room. I had been a little concerned about the burned oil in the tank but it was clean.

I used two tube caps for the tank. I used about one inch of the threaded end of the exaust pipe that comes on the Ruby. I used 1/4 inch tubing out of the top. I am working on my new stack.

I am pleased so far with the results of this trap. I have more smoke and steam out of the stack. The only down side to this thing is the smell of burnt steam oil. I think my next trap will have the inlet tub extend almost to the top of the tank.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray - in order to post images/photos, they need to be uploaded to an Internet server someplace.  You can't post images from your local hard drive.  The only exception is that First Class members can "attach" images to their posts _provided_ they are under a certain size - I believe it's 60kb.


See *this FAQ*


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2008)

Opps, well sirs, I do apologize for that intrusion and I am sure I should have known better, but this is all too much for me. I'm outa here.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray, don't take offense at Dwight - he's only trying to help.  (Everyone has problems with the stupid photo posting at first.)  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif

We need a furnace guy to keep us straight!  And we'd love to see your photos - did you get the email?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray - I wasn't trying to be rude or bust your chops. I saw that your photos didn't post and was trying to both help you post them and offer an explanation for why they didn't work the first time.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_Shame we lost Ray - his ideas were good and I was hoping he'd add some more details..._ 

Anyway, I finally got a chance this weekend to test the new stack - and it works!










As Ray discovered, the smokebox needs air flow. There was a thread by emartin187 (http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/11/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/6760/Default.aspx#25175) about drilling out the stack, and my new 9/16th ID version worked a treat. Didn't have to relight the fire once until I was out of gas. 

_But of course, being a Ruby, that wasn't the end of my problems. The new r/c servos seemed to work, but the loco wouldn't run forwards. I disconnected everything, and found that backwards running was perfect, and forwards was painful. Didn't have this problem before, so it may be that loosening the johnson bar pivot to attach the servo has brought out the deadly inside/outside-admission problem. 
Unlike my C-16 which works every time I take it out._


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

_Shame we lost Ray - his ideas were good and I was hoping he'd add some more details... _
Anyone with THAT short of a fuse wouldn't have been around long anyway. 

As to your Ruby's running problems, I suspect merely retimimg the valves to the etched line will put it back where it was.


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

If the mounting plate of the Johnson bar was loosened, it perhaps shifted the center position of the valve piston, letting more steam flow forward or reverse. The mounting plate is used to "centre" the main steam valve - you'll find that forward or reverse performance is affected by the position of the plate. Too far one way or the other and the centre bar position won't stop motion (either way), and there's enough latitude to affect the amount of steam admitted by the valve porting for either forward or reverse. (Did that make sense?)


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If the mounting plate of the Johnson bar was loosened

Paul, 

The annoying thing is that I never touched the mounting of the Johnson bar. I did weaken the spring that holds the J-bar to the frame to amke life easier for the servo, and I removed the bolt that fits in the indents - but the valve timing should have been the same. As Dwight says, it's probably just a matter of getting it all back to square one. 
Probably time I did the inside-admission thing as well. 

What's disheartening is that, as I don't have a test track, I have to spend all my visits to friends tracks fiddling with these problems, instead of enjoying the run. Well, that's a Ruby for you...


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 04/23/2008 6:37 AM 
If the mounting plate of the Johnson bar was loosened

Paul, 
The annoying thing is that I never touched the mounting of the Johnson bar. I did weaken the spring that holds the J-bar to the frame to amke life easier for the servo, and I removed the bolt that fits in the indents - but the valve timing should have been the same. As Dwight says, it's probably just a matter of getting it all back to square one. 
Probably time I did the inside-admission thing as well. 
What's disheartening is that, as I don't have a test track, I have to spend all my visits to friends tracks fiddling with these problems, instead of enjoying the run. Well, that's a Ruby for you...

What I'm trying to say, is the mounting of the j-bar assembly is part of the mix for balancing the forward/backward balance of the Ruby motion - its the reason the plate has slotted screws (and Accucraft mentions this in their instructions). Its possible for the plate to shift in handling. If you_ haven't _messed with the timing of any of the pistons, _then_ movement of the j-bar mount is suspect. Regardless whether you change timing or not, centering of the j-bar linkage is important to the relative performance backward to forward. 
You don't need a test track- make up a simple stand that supports the Ruby on its front and rear pilot frames, so that the wheels are clear and run away- you can make the adjustments easily that way - if you have a source of air, its even easier to set it up. 
There are four areas to set-up in the timing of the Ruby: 
1) Main piston in the steam chest under the boiler 
2) Relationship of the j-bar/linkage to the main piston 
3) Right and left side cylinder pistons 
4) Setup of the eccentric 
It just clicked that you have a servo on the j-bar...the set-up of the servo driving the j-bar must exactly duplicate the relationship that existed without the servo. Do this first before adjusting timing, if you haven't fiddled with the timing. There are two issues with the servo position - the position of the linkage arm at servo neutral must coincide with the neutral position of the linkage itself, relative to the piston in the steam chest. Secondly the motion either side of neutral should be the same, ie, if you are using end point sets on your transmitter, make sure the end point sets are symmetrical either side of neutral, or the motion won't be symmetrical either side. 
Generally, Ruby benefits from having the j-bar's [linkage] neutral set so that it slightly favours forward motion in outside admission (ie runs a bit better forward than in reverse). Switching to inside admission doesn't change this, but does reverse the linkage adjustments necessary to achieve it. The range of neutral is a bit fiddly - too much either way and the steam chest will still pass a bit of steam to the cylinders.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, 

Thanks for the helpful comments. As you say, maybe the J-bar mounting shifted; maybe the servo dragged it! 

The test track issue is another source of frustration. I've tried running the loco on my patio on blocks, but it doesn't exhibit the same characteristics as it does when placed on the track and hauling its own weight! Maybe a more drastic problem like this will show up, so it is on my list of things to try when I get a moment. 

I'm just irritated because my C-16 never had the slightest problem, even after I added the r/c gear.


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I agree, on blocks it doesn't load it the same. At least it will get you into a running ballpark. A point to recognize is that now that you have changed the exhaust porting of the engine, its entire power/exhaust cycle will be changed, or more importantly, not optimum for the change in back pressure. Make sure the j-bar linkage is set-up correctly and neutral (relative to the action of the stream chest, in the center position) before you begin to play with timing. If a neutral position isn't... and the wire controlling the link hasn't changed shape, then adjust the steam chest piston to bring the chest and j-bar back to neutral (small adjustments can be accommodated by the baseplate/servo link). 

I have two Rubies that are only a couple dozen apart in serial number. The steam chest/j-bar linkage is different in each, and one runs better in outside admission and the other, seemingly, in inside admission. Go figure. I haven't R/C'd them. What I do want to do is run them together in a consist and see if together they'll hunker down and haul some serious freight. So many trains, so little time! The basic Rubies seem to be fairly solid runners - its seems the artsy-f*rtsy ones have "issues"...


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## martfrombath (Jul 26, 2012)

hi guys, i have just acquired a ruby to run round my narrow garden as i scratchbuild gauge 1 locos that need larger radius curves and i have all the things discussed on your posts happening to it. first thing is, in the info supplied, there is a fix for the valve timing to make the loco run better forwards, and that is to loosen the eccentrics and turn the wheels 180 degrees and retighten. you then run forwards with the valve lever in back position and reverse with it forwards. the valves are then set for "inside" admission which makes for better running. it does work fine on my ruby. other thing is the fire does burble and go out when the smokebox door is shut, so will experiment with larger opening on the chimney (stack). i intend to do the "rubybash" and convert to a british rail B4 loco to fit in with my others when i have finished my current loco, an LMS duchess. have just put some new buffer beams on ready for a run at the next get together. will post a pic or 2 as it develops. gas is new to me being a meths firing enthusiast. kind regards, martin....


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## martfrombath (Jul 26, 2012)

and i forgot to mention, when i got the half built loco, the left rear port was blocked and i feared it may need a new cylinder or valve block. i loosened the valveblock screws and bent it up slightly to check steam passages, and luckily caught sight of the fact that the gasket was back to front, just as was mentioned in an earlier thread. easy to put right but tricky to diagnose for a beginner i would think. not sure if it came from the factory like that or whether the previous owner had built it that way. oh, and the wheel bearing bushes were too tight in the frames, causing binding. they need a little movement i think. runs well on the test bench now. bfn... martin


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## martfrombath (Jul 26, 2012)

just to say that a bigger chimney sorts out the burner going out when smokebox door is shut problem. i used some 1/2" plumbers pipe and a brass flange and it works fine. sorted. will put up a pic if anyone would like to see. thanx, mart...


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## SparkyJoe (Oct 14, 2012)

martfrombath said:


> just to say that a bigger chimney sorts out the burner going out when smokebox door is shut problem. i used some 1/2" plumbers pipe and a brass flange and it works fine. sorted. will put up a pic if anyone would like to see. thanx, mart...



I'd like to see the picture of your larger stack!


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## choochoowilly (Oct 31, 2016)

yes, please show the pictures


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

choochoowilly said:


> yes, please show the pictures


That thread was from 2013. He hasn't posted since that time.


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