# 1:20.me Bachmann Bashing



## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Edit: Comments Removed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually they(1:20.me) have been very fair with Bachmann. This story goes back a lot further than just this past year. As a matter of fact many years. There were some management changes at Bachmann late last year and earlier this year that slowed things down a bit.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 12/25/2008 11:23 AM
Is it just me or do the folks at 1:20.me seem to becoming serious Bachmann bashers! There has been a lot of complaining about the release and delivery of the 2-6-6-2 Mallet. Let me tell you, my company deals directly with China, as well as several of our contractors. This has been a VERY VERY bad year to get anything out of that country, especially getting it right and on time. You get one or the other, and sometimes niether. They basically quit doing anything for 3 months this past sping/summer trying to clean up and put on the olympics. Our company, much like Bachmann will miss premiers of new products this new year, and that can be contributed DIRECTLY to China. It has gotten so bad, we as well as one of our suppliers are pulling things back to the states, and paying more just so we can get them.

So let's lay off the boys at Bachmann for a while, maybe they're not under total control of thier problems either. I like Bachmann, they're coming out with alot of new products, and they are affordable. And I for one would wait a bit longer to get one that is correct, than to hurry up and get one that I have to send back.



You make some really good points...regarding China "shutting down for the Olympics". I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for the manufactures...it's THEIR good will on the line..and yes, perhaps some are being overly critical.

But, we're learning about the two edge sword of marketing. Three or four years ago, none of the manufacturers it seemed would make product announcements. New items would just "appear". A lot of us complained...me being one. I wanted to know what to save for. The days of the $20 car on ebay satisfying me were over it seemed. Engines were now well over $200...street price too...so saving in advance became more important. The 1/20.3 crowd was moving from bashing stuff into that scale to buying it.

And the manufacturers responded...especially Bachmann. They started making product announcements WITH release dates...and then they started missing the release dates...big time. Then we had the whole Super Socket fiasco...on perhaps the single most important 1/20.3 engine ever released in plastic...the K-27....and that design "feature" probably kept people from buying it...initially. Certainly the quartering issue delayed me buying my K-27. I needed to know if there was a fix for that as it would be a huge investment for me...and a fix that stayed fixed. 

Clearly, throughout the entire K-27 debate, 1:20.me grew in stature as one place where it seemed that reporting was "on da money". We certainly weren't seeing anything from the forums that could be considered accurate...certainily NOT from my potenital buyer perspective. There was one magazine article I read about the K-27 that Dave Goodson wrote...and its accucracy became the topic of a HUGE flap...and apparently had some consequences inside Kalmbach. That was very unfortunate IMHO....because it put the "openness" of the manufacturer in question..again...not to mention the objectivity of the model railroad press.

Regarding the new Mallet...if many are like me, they're looking for factual input on the loco. Here we are...considering an over $1000 MSRP engine again. So far we have two facts...something about a crankpin weakness and it's late. That may sound like bashing, but it seems more like factual reporting to me. Soon a few folks will get these engines in their hands, and we'll see more facts reported...and if there are problems MAYBE the springtime delivery is good...as it will allow Bachman to fix the issues before the engines REALLY gets on the market. Heck...maybe it's late BECAUSE they've found and fixed a problem BEFORE it was release en mass.

I really think that we're beginning to see the manufacturers be more open regarding flaws, fixes, and schedules...and that is GOOD...immensely good in my opinion. I just don't think that when those are reported it should always be considered bashing. My dad taught me that sometimes it's good to just step back...and see how well the pig can sing...and, I'll add...and be reported on from different perspectives...and it's always news when the pig doesn't arrive to sing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bachmann is not an American company. It's owned by Kader. None of that really makes any difference. The company has been having delivery problems, and the Chinese new year is not an unexpected event, and the olympics were planned years ago. 

"So let's lay off the boys at Bachmann for a while, maybe they're not under total control of their problems either. " 

Well Bachmann IS Kader, they are part of Kader, so Kader/Bachmann IS in control, it's the SAME company. 

This is not like Aristo not in control of Sanda Kan, these are 2 independent companies. 

This is like saying don't get mad at Chevrolet, it's GM's problem. They are the same company. 

I like Bachmann too, have several of their locos, but still promising what you cannot deliver, or quality control problems, are legitimate gripes. 

Regards, Greg


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I've found the information on the 1:20 point me site to be very accurate, and to showcase a number of interesting products (recently, my very own station appeared in the PCGRS article, to my surprise!) When there have been delays (remember, even Bachmann's own site said "Available NOVEMBER" for a long time) the delays have been reported. When there is a mechanical or electrical problem that appears, it's been reported, and sometimes in time to save people from having to deal with broken equipment. 

I will be watching the site intently over the next bit, as I'm expecting a 2-6-6-2 and want to be prepared to respond to any issues that arise with the model, not because I dislike the company or its products, but because I want a locomotive that functions well. I'd rather have the news in time to avert a problem rather than have to find a way to return the unit for replacement or service (which again, at Bachmann, can often be unusual, compared to other service experiences.) While the official voice of Bachmann on their own site is now as friendly and as helpful as it always has been, the flavor of the ex-officio "Help" has changed dramatically since the board was yellow and the Bach-Man waved his hat; and with a locomotive with this kind of price tag, I'll take all the good help I can get. 

Matthew (OV)


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Also keep in mind the political climate in China with the toy mfgrs, with many that have folded in the last month or so. 

For Bachmann, the riot, looting and damage of the computers and offices that happened at Kader's main Dongguan plant in November is not going to help, and who knows what the quality situation may be with a ticked off workforce?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

EDIT: forgot the story link to the Kader riot: 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/node_37/node_84/2008/11/27/122774791655979.shtml


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't know about the Kader factory destruction. I knew about the "riot". More disturbing to me was what is said in this article... 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/node_37/node_84/2008/10/21/122455232953456.shtml


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't know - like others, I see a site that is reporting facts (as best I guess as can be had). I'm not sure I would call the fact that they point out QC issues with locomotives as "bashing..." and if you do, then I guess JD Miller over on the Bachmann board must be "bashing" them as well, as he talked today (yestrday?) about the Mallet and broken parts too. Course, JD is the poster child for Bach Man Love, so I don't know... 

What I do worry about is if WE start bashing that site, will they pull the sponsorship of this forum?







Not sure if you noticed up9018, but just above your post, is the 1/20 point me logo - you know, the guys who helped pay for this space for you to go and attack them! (And as I recall, the 1/20 site is free - they do it all at their own cost - nice to know there is still SOMEPLACE without sponsors to keep happy and censorship to pass out!) ((and no - not saying that MLS censors - before anyone screams!














) 

I'm sure as **** going to wait for my mallet - I got stung BIG TIME on my K-27







- it's a great looking engine that runs like crXp! I read what is coming out about the new engine and it's just like reading all the counterweight stuff about the K a year ago. I'm not getting burned again!


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Edit: Comments Removed


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Edit: Comments Removed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have read what you think is "bashing" and I believe it is more "tongue-in-cheek" than anything else. Need to chill a bit.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, bad news travels faster than good. 

And if I was going to shell out for that loco, I would be looking to find any negatives that I needed to consider before purchase. If you want to only hear the good stuff and supress the bad, then a manufacturer's forum is for you. There are a couple of manufacturer's sites that would welcome your outlook with outstretched arms. 

Negative comments are not bashing, and criticism is not bashing in of itself.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I certainly see nothing amiss on that site. 
Bochman is late.....again. 
When exactly, did Christmas change from 25DEC? 

When any site posts an issue with links to where it is reported, you really have issue with that? 

I don't. 

I suspect we have only been shown a preview. 
That suspicion is based primarily on A) experience and B) who has been reported to be the "Technical Advisor". 

Bottom line, it is not a Mallet. 
It's a Meyer. 

Read that somewhere. 

Apparently, you need something to occupy your time. 
Allow folks who have a desire for foreknowledge to have access to same. 

If you do not like that particular blog, a suggestion: 

Don't read it.


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## Crosshead (Feb 20, 2008)

Occasionally, we find that with some issues, the news is not good more often that it is good. When that's true, having more negative reports than positive ones isn't bashing; it's simply the truth. 

In the same manner, saying a product has technical problems (assuming it does) or that it has been reported to have problems (if in fact it has) is not bashing ... it's reporting the truth. 

Drop Dan a line and ask him. He's not known for beating about the bush, and you'll probably get a better answer than you will by stomping on the beehive here. 

Richard C.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, I'll bite.

What is the difference between a Mallet and a Meyer?

John


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

As I understand it, a Meyer is articulated in such a way that both the front and rear "engine" assemblies (cylinder, valve gear, drive wheels) pivot whereas with a Mallet, the rear "engine" is fixed, and only the front one can swing. 

I suspect someone has discovered that the rear engine on the Bachmann model actually pivots .... anyone know for sure? 

Matthew (OV) 

The long version: http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r095.html


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

UP9018: 

You don't need to remove your comments. It's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, and while I disagreed, I respect your right to have a different opinion, and this forum to host it. 

Please do not take the disagreements personally, as long as people are courteous and respectful, we can all get along together. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Hellsbells, here I was being nice in my commmentary, too. 

Oh, well. 
wait a minute...... 

wellhellsbellsmel.........


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 12/25/2008 3:32 PM
I didn't know about the Kader factory destruction. I knew about the "riot". More disturbing to me was what is said in this article... 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/node_37/node_84/2008/10/21/122455232953456.shtml






There was reportedly no factory destruction, mostly office damage, flipping cars and the lot.

The scaleback of toy production has been all over the news here in the US for months. The global "recession" is a part of it, but much of it can be linked to some changes in China as I posted above.

Raw material prices, engery prices, labor costs and a rising Chinese currency is a factor.

The lead based paint fiasco was part of it (I but wonder how much was on my wooden East German toy village I had as a kid, might explain a few things!!) too.

But a big part is after the Summer Games, it has been stated by the Govt that China wants to switch gears and not be viewed as a place for making cheap goods. Think the days when Made in Japan went from junk to gold....

So another SE Asia country will probably be the new toy making homeland.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

UPDATE: While killing some time this AM in a nearly deserted Wal-Mart (strange on Boxing Day?!?!) I looked at a few toys on the shelves. 

Yup, Malaysia and Thiland............


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By parkdesigner on 12/25/2008 4:00 PM
BIG SNIP
I'm sure as **** going to wait for my mallet - I got stung BIG TIME on my K-27







- it's a great looking engine that runs like crXp! I read what is coming out about the new engine and it's just like reading all the counterweight stuff about the K a year ago. I'm not getting burned again! 




Would you care to elaborate as to what you mean by "runs like crXp"?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Tony. What do you mean? Once I fixed the counterweights on my first K it has run like a champ. I was so pleased with it that I bought a second one. I did, however, ask the seller to fix the counterweights.

They pull and track very well. I can only wish that my K-28 from another vendor ran as well.

Chuck N


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

"Would you care to elaborate" 
Sure thing - I have an accucraft K27 - runs smooth as silk, silent as a ghost at slow speed, and it looks nice to boot!

Seeing the new Bmann K - I think that it LOOKS stunning - so, instead of buying more brass engines, I figure that the cost savings from the Bmann unit will allow me to add all the extras I've always wanted to put in an engine - sound, rc, batt, etc...











So - I buy the K, and pay to have it converted to RC (Airwire), Battery and Sound installed, I have to pay to have the damn magnetic chuff triggers added as Stan Ames bent the collective large scale world over hard on those POS optical triggers







, and then I have the engine weathered and detailed.

I finally get the K home, flip it on, and what do I hear - I stupid fan whizzing from the boiler!?!







Sheesh! So now, after already having paid a hefty chunk of change to have the engine modified - I have to open up the engine AGAIN to get rid of the fan.

Finally, peace and quite - or so I think... until I try to power the engine up... the K-27 sounds horrific at slow speeds due to the MOTOR whine...







but wait, what's this!? Lurching too!?









At slow speeds (and thanks to Stan and his moronic choice in motors and "fix it with software" attitude for all of us RC folk, my K-27 takes off like a jet plane, or slinks along with a very noticeable whine) the engine has a "hitch" in the giddy-up. Oh - and the very SECOND the engine hits a curve - DEAD







- the engine dies right then and there at slow speeds and takes till the count of 3 to muster enough power to pull itself through the corner. These are 10 foot, flat, corners on the kitchen floor!!









I'm STILL having to work through the problems on this engine - the sound of the motor still sends chills up my backside - the engine dies at slow speed in corners - the engine lurches on every 4th quarter of a full revolution at slow speeds (I'm still tracking this down - starting to look like a "bowed" driving rod that came that way from the factory - I had spotted it when taking it out of the box, but figured it was just bmann slop tolerances I was seeing - there is a lot of play in the running gear rods)...

And for all of that - I spent the same on all the extras and upgrades that I now can't enjoy due to poor construction by bachmann that - I might as well have bought another Accucraft engine if I wanted a shelf queen.









At least then if I did power it the engine wouldn't die in the corners or squeal high pitched sounds at slow speeds from the motor.

I won't even THINK of buying a second K-27 until Bachmann rips out EVERYTHING that is a part of the stupid &%^! socket - the board, the fan on the stack, optical chuff junk - I swear, if they would just sell the entire engine, minus all electronics, I'd sooner pay the SAME price for that and add my own lights, motor, triggers, etc. I think a $600 static model that I can power myself would have been a better value than the "DCC ready" infected junk in the engine. 


Nuff explanation Tony?











Oh - and thanks, but I've already got WAY too many cooks in the kitchen on this one - so while some "experts" here at MLS may feel compelled to offer advice on how to fix this, I've got it covered - one of the reasons I had not posted my experience here was that I'm sure I'll be called all sorts of nasty names for being a "hater" - which isn't true - I have tons of Bmann stuff that I love - all their tank cars - my very first engine... great stuff, and still reliable - I don't know who/what changed with the K-27, but it's a damn shame as I think if the engine had been made to the level of some past offerings I'd own 3 or 4 of them by now. 

At any rate - just saying I know people will want to try and help, but I've already got some help lined up in the new year and for anyone who thinks I'm being unfair to bmann - shove it - I don't want to hear your blind faith loyalty on this one - go preach to the choir on the bachmann bored. The K-27 is screwed up - and unless you're willing to run it under Stan Ames' vision for YOUR railroad, it most likely is a money black hole. I didn't come here yelling all this (I've been very good NOT to splash this all over mls), but Tony asked me for the explanation and their you have it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One thing if you please, would you let us all know how you solved your problem? (Yes I am stifling myself, because I do think I know the source of your problem). I would like to add your solution that works to you to my knowledge of this loco, and it's problems/characteristics/solutions. 

A private email is also fine, if you want to keep a low profile! 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. we miss you on chat!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

There _are _problems with the K-27 and that is a fact. Most of these problems have been addressed and "fixes" devised. The last and possibly hardest to fix is this deal with the too high gear ratio. Is it bashing Bachmann to identify a possibly significant problem and then not buy the "spin" from a "consultant" (especially when the "spin" isn't even very convincing and completely fails to address the concerns?) The history of Bachmann with Large Scale has been one of beautiful looking products that have had some production problems that _should_ have been caught before being released. In almost all cases they weren't. Fixes were devised by certain people (who shall remain nameless) who then gave these fixes to Bachmann _in order for Bachmann to correct their mistake._ Unfortunately, a certain "consultant" managed to convince the powers that be at Bachmann that this nameless one should be excluded from any association with Bachmann. In fact, a certain individual at Bachmann was so adamant that this nameless one not have any influence whatsoever that he (the Bachmann official) actually tried to have the nameless one "fired" from his reviewing of largescale products in a certain magazine! So follow this - Bachmann has a production problem (several) with a new product that has been in development for years and which has had hundreds of thousands of dollars in development costs as well as a bizzare marketing strategy that reputedly was the fault of Bachmann's parent company more than Bachmann itself (i.e. their hands were tied) and rather than accept the help from this nameless one who has consistently devised fixes for nearly all of Bachmann's product problems over the past decade and who _without financial compensation from Bachmann _already was willing to continue to do so, have denied that the problem(s) existed until proven beyond a doubt and then taking the "fix" and trying to credit one of their people with coming up with the solution! (Okay, that was a mouthfull..)

_Anyway_, Bachmann has apparently gone back to their old tactic of denying that a problem exists and using their "enthusiastic children" to perpetuate this scenario. The problem with this is that there are quite a few knowledgeable people with _credentials and experience_ that have raised legitimate concerns! Is it "bashing" to keep these _unanswered_ concerns in the limelight especially as there is now a new product just arriving that apparently calls into question this whole issue of proper gearing again? 

Now, that being said, I'm going to weigh in here as I have one of the K-27's that Dave Goodson went over with a fine-tooth comb while installing an RCS r/c unit with Sierra sound. He addressed almost all of the "problems" that have been found with the notable exception of the gearing ratio problem. The fact is that the gear ratio isn't that much of a problem for me as my unit only uses 14.4v and r/c has always been my personal choice for control. I never saw the Bachmann unit before Dave sent it to me so my personal experience is that the K-27 is a _superb_ runner! Quite simply, it is the best engine I have (of over 20 bachmann engines in the last decade.) *Note that I threw in the caveat that this engine was "fixed" before I ever saw it! If Bachmann had one major flaw in it's products it is that it doesn't allow proper beta testing _before_ putting out it's products! Because of this, I will wait before purchasing a new Bachmann design until such time as I am convinced that _all_ of the little "kinks" have been adequately addressed! This new engine is interesting but I have yet to see a review from someone I trust. 

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.."


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Josh? 
It is very helpful to read an independent opinion on how well the K-27 performs. 
I hope Bachmann and Mr Ames in particular are making notes. 

As an aside I should comment I have installed battery R/C (RCS) in 6 x K-27's now. They all perform flawlessly. However all bar one only ever run on dead flat live steam layouts. The one that doesn't run on a flat layout, does struggle with grades a bit and does tend to run away downhill. This has been diagnosed as the K-27 having incorrect gear ratios. 
The twin start worm changed the gear ratio from the advised 1:30 to 1:14.5 which eliminated any bucking and jerking but doubled the top speed. 
As I understand it Barry Olsen is working on replacement gears.


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