# which concrete is more waterproof



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

OK, so concrete isn't really that waterproof, but between straight Portland and Quikrete, which would work better to hold water?

Here's what I'm doing. I'm building a humongous aqueduct in my backyard. I poured one of the pillars yesterday in fact. The aqueduct will carry water (of course), and a railroad track.


Plan B: I'll build it, test it, and if it leaks a little, I'll try waterproofing epoxy or some other coating.

Plan C: should plans A & B fail, I'll throw a liner inside and be done with it


Anyway, if the leak is big enough, I'm thinking it will be easier to detect since the aqueduct will be raised about 15" off the ground. Also, the leak could be detected by segmenting portions of the aqueduct using mortar dams, which could then easily be removed with grout removal tools or such abrasives as rub-a-brick.

If there's any interest here, I can post construction photos. I'm designing it with miniature bricks, which are set in concrete, as well as fake brick containment sheets using hot wax for simulated mortar joints; a technique someone used on this forum in the track and bridges section. I can post progress or disaster either here or garden section

Thanks

Dave V


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

keep the posts coming dave with photos 
thanks


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Use any concrete you prefer, then paint it with Uhu Drylock to waterseal it.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Dave, Yes Please post Pictures! Not sure what brand may be more water tight. You could always to a scratch coat of dry lock or something over the water way once all the sections are cast. How will the sections be joined? Just a new pour up against the last? Can't wait to see your progress.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi, 

Thanks. 

I'm planning on joining the sections using tiny rebars, as well as a spray coating of concrete adhesive, the kind you pick up at lowe's & HD 

I've got a form around the first upright that should be able to be struck this evening and with Daylight Savings, I may have time for a photo before it gets dark. I anticipate the project taking at least a few months but hope to get a working segment operational so I can turn on the water pump and try it out. 

So I'll post photos, diagrams etc etc within a day or so 

Dave


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I find any "hard" material will eventually crack and water will leak. 

I've sealed all my fountains with Herco rubber coatings. In the sun, the black color lasts about 10 years. It stays flexible and once cured is non-toxic, thus fine for fish. *http://hechtrubber.com/H...trong>** They have white also, and I think gray.

It's the only thing that keeps my fountains/ponds from leaking. It's really rubber and stays flexible. I've used the coatings for concrete, and they crack and leak over time.

Greg*


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Pond liner. Doesn't leak.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

not for sure what you have in mind, but I like to make a trough out of steel and then line the inside with cement to create a river looking effects. The steel keeps it from leaking. 
I will see if I can find a picture. 
Dennis


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Here is a picture of my river bed. Loose gravel in the bottom on top of the steel, side walls are 6 inches tall, covered with cement and then painted. 6 inches seams to be enough to have either none or minimal
wick affects. I have not noticed leakage from the river. The river is to the right of the engine.
Dennis


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Doesnt really matter, straight portland or quickcrete. 

The difference is quickrete will have some larger rock in it. What Greg suggested is the best solution. Seal it with a rubber compound or a liner. I would do it now instead of later. It will be a lot less messier.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think anyone answered your question. Portland is a generic technical type of cement. Quikrete is a franchised brand name who sells Portland cement. Products containing sand and gravel with cement are concrete with 3,000-5,000 psi strength. If you are casting with small bricks, you may want to consider a precision grout meeting ASTM C1107, sometimes with 5,000-9,000 psi strength. This grout is NOT to be confused with tile grout or anchoring cements. Generally grouts do not contain large aggregate such as gravel. Also do not confuse Portland cement with masonry cements, generally premixed as type "M", "S", & "N". Well vibrated and well cured (kept damp for several days) concrete is fairly waterproof. Any concrete can crack for many reasons. A trough with a flexible waterproof coating would be good.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks everyone. I really like Greg's idea for the coating. I've downloaded their website. 

Incidentally, there were prototypes for canal and aqueduct railways. For example: 

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/12/trolley-canal-boats.html 

I'll start an aqueduct thread and start posting soon. I've already cast the first 2 uprights and will begin my first arch this weekend 

Dave V


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will tell you that I have 2 fountains and this stuff has worked for me for 20 years, and they are in constant motion. 



















Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Those are real nice fountains greg. And I thought your entire backyard was just trains. 

Thank god the wife dont read this site or I might have a delay in my railroad construction.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Trains run behind that fountain: (fountain is straight ahead) - 34 foot passing siding...












And in front too (although what you see below lifts out)...










A lot of work to shoehorn in 800 feet of track...

Greg


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Nice fountain!!! 

Del, I know that pond liners work but that's when they're being used for ponds. With irregular, elongated extreme shapes, a lot of PVC gluing (or EPFM sewing) is required and therein lies the possibility of leaks. Greg's coating is ideal for unusual applications.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I forgot, I believe that rubber coating is available in black, white and gray too. So you can pick a color that blends somewhat. You can apply with a roller or paintbrush. 

My landscaper, who made both fountains, was always having leaks in the fountains he made, and this is the only product he uses now. 

The blue marble fountain has two separate water basins, and lots of curves and corners. 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Gee Greg. I thought you live in San Diago, Not the jungles of South America. None of those plants are "Man Eating" are they? 

Once again I have learned form a thread that has nothing to do with what I am doing. I am inspired. 

I hope to see pictures of the Aquiduct. 

JJ


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## emale (Jul 24, 2014)

I am new to this forum and I was doing some searching around for aquaducts and ran across an old thread of yours... 

"which concrete is more waterproof
OK, so concrete isn't really that waterproof, but between straight Portland and Quikrete, which would work better to hold water?

Here's what I'm doing. I'm building a humongous aqueduct in my backyard. I poured one of the pillars yesterday in fact. The aqueduct will carry water (of course), and a railroad track"


I was wondering would there be a place I could still see photos of this aquaduct?











SE18 said:


> OK, so concrete isn't really that waterproof, but between straight Portland and Quikrete, which would work better to hold water?
> 
> Here's what I'm doing. I'm building a humongous aqueduct in my backyard. I poured one of the pillars yesterday in fact. The aqueduct will carry water (of course), and a railroad track.
> 
> ...


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Depending on the finish you want plastering it may work too. That's how the concrete is sealed in swimming pools. Not sure what the final result may be. Just an idea......

Bill


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

emale said:


> I am new to this forum and I was doing some searching around for aquaducts and ran across an old thread of yours...
> 
> "which concrete is more waterproof
> OK, so concrete isn't really that waterproof, but between straight Portland and Quikrete, which would work better to hold water?
> ...



Two solutions you might consider;
1. Polymer Cement: "Polymer-modified Mortars"
http://www.concreteconstruction.net/polymer-concrete/polymer-modified-mortars.aspx

_Addition of polymers to cement. Google "Polymer Cement"
_
(excerpt from above article)  
Applications
"Flooring and Pavements: Can be used in mortar or heavy use concrete industrial/commercial flooring overlay formulations. Warehouses, factories, hospitals, stairways, garages, railway platforms, airport runways, etc. Abrasion resistance, tensile and flexural strength, water resistance, chemical resistance, and exterior durability.

Waterproofing: Basements, bulk water storage tanks, septic tanks, ship decks, roof decks, and concrete walls. Water resistance for all; chemical resistance, other properties depending on the application"

Two types of Polymer Cement; 1. Polymer concentrate (dry) to mix with ordinary concrete; 2. premixed concrete (dry mix by the bag) with Polymers in the mix. A building center, versus Home Depot or Lowe's, is your better source with knowledgeable sales people to advise you as well as having the product(s) in stock.. Polymer Cement costs a bit more although it has come down a lot in cost in recent years. 

We used Polymer Cement for two house we built with raised foundations (stem wall and piers) for its added strength here in California earthquake country. Here its use is not uncommon in better construction, particularly in commercial construction.

For more information on polymers cement Google "Polymer Cement" 


_Roman Concrete:_
2. "Ancient Roman Concrete Is About to Revolutionize Modern Architecture";
http://www.businessweek.com/article...is-about-to-revolutionize-modern-architecture.

Sounds a little odd but by this time, several years since the discovery, there are probably products that replicate the Roman's formula.

(excerpt from above article) 
"After 2,000 years, a long-lost secret behind the creation of one of the world’s most durable man-made creations ever—Roman concrete—has finally been discovered by an international team of scientists, and it may have a significant impact on how we build cities of the future.

The secret to Roman concrete lies in its unique mineral formulation and production technique. As the researchers explain in a press release outlining their findings, “The Romans made concrete by mixing lime and volcanic rock. For underwater structures, lime and volcanic ash were mixed to form mortar, and this mortar and volcanic tuff were packed into wooden forms. The seawater instantly triggered a hot chemical reaction. The lime was hydrated—incorporating water molecules into its structure—and reacted with the ash to cement the whole mixture together.” 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Polymer Cement is probably your better bet versus getting involved with build something like the Roman Coliseum.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

I found out that rebar if not coated and is put in cement, in time will rust from the moister that the cement draws, then the rust swells and will crack the cement. Found that our on my 3 foot Bridge Pillars I made yrs ago. Now seeing rust coming out the crack.


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I find any "hard" material will eventually crack and water will leak.
> 
> I've sealed all my fountains with Herco rubber coatings. In the sun, the black color lasts about 10 years. It stays flexible and once cured is non-toxic, thus fine for fish. *http://hechtrubber.com/H...trong>** They have white also, and I think gray.
> 
> ...


*

Just a quick question Greg. How long did you have to let your coating cure?
I got to do something to my pond bad crack over the years. Like to know about how long I have to keep 40 some large Koi fish out and in to something else for the time needed. Not sure what yet.
I found out I can't temp. use any a above ground swimming pools due to the out gas of the plastic liners.*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Between your concrete sections, instead of mortar, you might consider something flexible to allow for expansion, frost heave, being bumped, etc. E.g., 100% RTV silicone. This would be in addition to the paint-on rubber liner that Greg recommended.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Chris, I apologize for making suggestions that you weren't asking for, but your situation is very intriguing, so I can't help it. 

What comes to my mind is aluminum rectangular tubing, say, 3x4x1/8" wall, 20' long. Randy S. and Jerry B. have used this successfully for very long bridge spans. Jerry is even adding vertical angles & etc. to make it look like a girder bridge. Anyway, one could use these tubes as a water conduit, with sufficient joiners -- e.g., rubber sheet that wraps on the sides and bottom, secured with band clamps. These joints would coincide with pier locations. Just a thought.

But maybe you're going for a particular sort of historical look? The only track + aqueduct I'm aware of was for the Eureka mill on the Carson River (NV):

http://wnhpc.com/details/scp1735
http://wnhpc.com/details/scp1740
http://wnhpc.com/details/scp1739

I'm sure there are other examples though. Point being, an aluminum tube (or channel, for an open top) could possibly be skinned with wooden sides & deck. Or other material.

Cliff


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