# LGB Knuckle Couplers don't fit my LGB Train?



## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I just finished a small, _40 ft-ish_, Garden Railroad. I visited the forums here for plenty of advice during and before construction, so Thank You to everyone who helps folks. 

I am using a Starter Lake George & Bluff set my Family got me about 20 years ago for under the Christmas Tree. 

Here's a photo of my finished layout, and the Starter Set. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq82rnpb0l394dr/lgb-garden.jpg?dl=0 

It's just R 1100 track & straight track. There are straight pieces in the middle of every "S" curve. All cars and the locomotive currently have stock Hook & Loop Couplers.

Everything runs great, except for the fact that one of the cars has a Hook & Loop Coupler that keeps derailing. The surface is pretty flatly graded, no major drops or climbs. After reading about Knuckle Couplers, I decided to buy a few packages of LGB Knuckle Couplers (#64193), and replace the original Hook & Loop Couplers. These couplers are supposed to work on most LGB train cars from 1980 on I read. 

So, I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but they don't seem to fit correctly. I'm not sure if its just my Starter Set, or I need to do more in replacing them. The "bumpers" (not sure it there is a more correct term) seem to be in the way of the knuckle couplers. I don't know you're supposed to cut them off or I'm just missing something obvious. And I don't see how these knuckler couplers attach to the Locomotive at all ... they just don't seem to match.

Here's some images I took to help explain things:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jjtz0hdqyrr5rfw/lgb-cars-knuckled-2.jpg?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fy119l32pqmadii/lgb-cars-knuckled.jpg?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxzfybczqvw3mtu/lgb-engine.jpg?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58g7xw76makwvk4/lgb-cars.jpg?dl=0 

Any information/advice you have for a newbie would be great!

Thanks!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Those cars are based on European prototype. The buffers on the end of the car prevent North American style knuckle couplers from working properly. Your best bet is to use the standard hook and loops.

They are European cars with Ameican lettering.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It can be difficult or impossible to put LGB Knuckle Couplers on old LGB products without first cutting off the buffers. 

Having said that I find LGB Hook & Loop couplers the easiest and most dependable couplers on my layouts.

I hate to cut the buffers off - especially when you use hook and loop couplers they really assist when you are pushing against them because regular hook & loops can sometimes ride up and over each other when backing up.

I suspect you may not be doing something right if you're having a problem putting LGB hook and loop couplers on LGB rolling stock.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't recognize your LGB - engine but that coupler is probably where you're having trouble. It probably has less swing than regular hook and loop couplers.

Typically LGB Hook & Loop couplers are able to handle sharp curves a lot better than any knuckle couplers.

The short 2 axle European rolling stock does not track as well in forward or in reverse as US style 4 axle rolling stock.

Jerry


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Thanks Jerry & Chuck! I guess I'll give up on the Knuckle Couplers then on this starter set. 

I'll probably upgrade my rolling stock to something more fun in the near near future anyway. 

On some other threads I noticed folks mentioning no larger than "F" locomotives (or something like that) for R1100 curved track. What does that mean? Where do you find that notation on locos when shopping around? Do you have recommendations? And I guess I should stick with smaller boxcars as well?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jolthammer said:


> Thanks Jerry & Chuck! I guess I'll give up on the Knuckle Couplers then on this starter set.
> 
> I'll probably upgrade my rolling stock to something more fun in the near near future anyway.
> 
> On some other threads I noticed folks mentioning no larger than "F" locomotives (or something like that) for R1100 curved track. What does that mean? Where do you find that notation on locos when shopping around? Do you have recommendations? And I guess I should stick with smaller boxcars as well?



Hello, I think it's 4 wheel engines as in 'Four Drivers' because they are built for tight curves. A 2-4-0 is ok too.
Welcome aboard.
John


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, the LGB knuckle couplers are set quite a bit higher than the hook and loop couplers. They will tangle with the buffers on European stock unless those buffers are cut away.

I had some LGB knuckle couplers on some LGB North American outline cars. As I recall, those knuckles matched well with Kadee "G" couplers. The photo below shows how high the Kadees sit.









Have you added the extra hooks to your stock? (They must be purchased separately.) Simply adding the extra hooks (a hook on both ends instead of just one end) may solve your problem.

Regards,
David Meashey


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Thanks Dave. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "extra hooks"? Do you mean putting hooks on both ends of the cars? If so, then no, I hadn't thought of that at all.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I mean putting hooks on both ends of the cars. They are less likely to separate that way, but be advised that they are also harder to uncouple as well.

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The red engine in the set does not have a standard rear coupler, it was made to mate with the powered sound tender which does have a rear standard coupler mount.

I use double hooks on all my cars and metal wheels and have no issues with running my short engone/short car trains, plus I use the powered tender and connect a power cable between the engine and tender.

Also I used Kadees on short 2 axle cars (HLW) and run these on a 29 inch circle(diameter/14.5 inch radius) which was made by bending 2 pieces of 8 foot rail.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I second staying with the hook and loops on those cars. I found those are more dependable on tight curves like you have. BTW, nice looking railway! My line is also on the smaller side. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jolthammer said:


> Thanks Jerry & Chuck! I guess I'll give up on the Knuckle Couplers then on this starter set.
> 
> I'll probably upgrade my rolling stock to something more fun in the near near future anyway.
> 
> On some other threads I noticed folks mentioning no larger than "F" locomotives (or something like that) for R1100 curved track. What does that mean? Where do you find that notation on locos when shopping around? Do you have recommendations? And I guess I should stick with smaller boxcars as well?


Knuckle couplers (LGB, Kadee or others) have some limits on use. Some folks like them for their realistic looks and other features while on the other hand, hook and loops handle sharp curves, irregular track, humps and dips better.

Like Dan, I use double hook & loops (hook on both loops) and metal wheels (different issue) on most of my rolling stock.

In some places (because of space limitations) I use R1 (4' diameter) curves which a lot of locomotives are unable to handle. LGB is the main brand that can handle R1 curves. Most other brands today require a minimum of 8 foot diameter curves.

There are a lot of different situations and options. Perhaps your best choice is to start by determining your space limitations and what kind of trains you want to run. Often space and budget determines the future of the layout. It is also a good idea to have some thought about how you would like your layout to be in the future. 

Take your time, ask a lot of questions, and build YOUR dream - a little bit at a time. Most of all, have fun doing it.

Jerry

PS sometimes "F" is referred to as a Guage but to the best of my knowledge no "F" gauge locomotive would be capable of running on R1000 (4 foot diameter) curves.

For that matter most 4 axle boxcars can handle R1000 curves BUT NOT if you put body mounted Kadee couplers on them.

I often pull LGB and USA boxcars (not the extra long ones) with LGB 0-4-0, 2-4-0, Moguls and Forneys around R1000 curves. Some old Moguls have a tight fit.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Even the newer moguls will usually slow noticeably on R1 curves, or atleast mine always. did. Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jolthammer said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> My wife and I just finished a small, _40 ft-ish_, Garden Railroad. I visited the forums here for plenty of advice during and before construction, so Thank You to everyone who helps folks.
> 
> ...



I thought I had discovered your problem...

Your locomotive apparently has a different coupler that could possibly be causing your problem. It has a loop that sticks way out when others have a rotating hook.

Here is what mine looks like:








This is how mine mates with an LGB Sound Tender:








​
And my train going around a R1 (4' diameter) curve:








​
If you simply replace the loop on your loco with a rotating hook (if a hook is available and it fits), your train should be able to easily go around a R1000 curve loop. I think it should be able to as it is now.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

OK. This is a little confusing to me.

As best I can tell, you have the 25301 or 70311 or 72311 Starter Set but the photo I have of the 25301 shows the exact loop on the loco as your photo does (instead of a rotating hook).

Apparently, at some time LGB changed the loco (mine is a 2117D) from the loop to the rotating hook (or the other way around).

With the hook on the loco you would need a hookless loop on the coach but with the loop you would need a hook on the loop of the coach.

Jerry


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

http://www.onlytrains.com/model/trains/25301.html

That is the starter set I have. IT was a gift from my wife like 20+ years ago. Figured it was a good basis for starting the outdoor garden railway. The loop on the back of the engine is rock solid. It doesn't pivot like it does on the cars. 

It was fine under the tree, on a perfectly flat surface.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The back of your loco is slightly different from mine. I don't know if it makes a difference.








I think this shows the difference between your loco's loop and my loco's hook:








This shows the bottom of my loco (2117D):








Since your loco was shipped with the loop and not with a hook and I believe all LGB Starter Sets are shipped with R1 R1000 curves, I would expect your train to run fine on it unless there was another factor at work somewhere.

It is very unusual for someone to have a problem with any LGB 0-4-0 Starter Set other than I do run into problems backing 2 axle coaches through switches.

I may prefer LGB Moguls but the truth is that LGB 0-4-0s are probably the most dependable of any loco made by anyone.

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry and all...as far as I remember

The loop was on the 2015 loco and sets with the 2015 loco.
If you added a powered tender the rotating hook came with it for the engine (2015 or stainz).
If you got the 2017 loco, it came with a powered tender and rotating hook.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Dan,

This is what I found:








25301US, (70311), (72311): 1991-93, replaced and similar to set 22301US except locomotive is now 2117D and coaches are now 3306 coaches. Set is basically red in color. 

Marketed only in the U.S. in 1991-92. Marketed worldwide in 1993. Replaced by sets 70312 and 72312 in 1994. 10,000 sets produced.

A) 1991, with 2117D(A) steam locomotive, prewired for smoke, but no smoke generator. Old-style motor block.

(B) 1992*93, with 2117D(B) steam locomotive, with smoke generator. New-style motor block.

My sets pretty much match the 25301 pictured but with the slight differences in the photos I posted.

My photographed 0-4-0 came without a tender. I bought the 69672 Sound Tender separately.

I don't know much about the LGB 0-4-0's other than the ones I happen to own. I don't think I have a 2015. I think mine are all 2117D's or Stainz types. With Sound (powered) tenders, they make great little switchers.

https://p2.liveauctioneers.com/346/59701/29510076_1_x.jpg
https://p3.liveauctioneers.com/346/59701/29510076_2_x.jpg

Apparently the tenders came with a rotating hook (in the bag). My locos may have come with a loop and I may have put the hook from the 69672's on the locos.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The smoke unit on my 2117D broke but a 2015 smoke unit replaced & fixed it.,

An LGB 5005 Track Cleaning Attachment converted an LG&B caboose into a Track Cleaner.








The loco, tender and caboose easily handle R1 4' diameter curves.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at the LGB pdf files:
2015D has a front loop coupler and straight smoke stack
2017d has a front cow catcher and diamond smoke stack
PDF shows both as having the rear rotating hook.

Sets may have a different engine configuration.

2010/2020 stainz all have rear hook and loop and this is why powered tenders came with the rotating hook for a more secure connection.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Beautiful set in an appealing layout!
Love the red.
I have the yellow sets, freight and passenger.

Some conjecture.
Id check for a chunk of ballast in the derailment area. 

The knuckles have a drop pin, and from the photos, these look too close to the buffer.
I too, suggest NOT modifying your set for the knuckles. I tind hook snd loops extremely functional. I do use lgb knuckles on some lgb cars avd locos. Generally, my POV on lgb is not to cut it up. Generally, not always. My point here is that knuckles may not solve the derailment issue, and then you have dimished the cars originality. Otoh, i have cut buffers from the original bobber caboose for knuckles and dont regrat this. Yet, on another bobber, it has knuckles and buffers and runs fine.

As for the loco rear loop in your pics, that is standard for the starter set locos of your type.
The "L" hook used for the tender is something that can be purchased separately, if you like. Ihave these on other tender locos of this type. Stock or L will work equally well.

As for the derail issue, some things to look for:
A car axel that does not pivot freely and which has its wheels hard angled against the rail. This can climb at a joint, especially on curves. The fix is thouroughly clean , a rinse will remove grit. Let it dry and puff in graphite powder or dry teflon. I dont like oils, as the inevitably collect more grit.
A section of track whiich is slightly torqued, ie, not flat from the sides of the rail, (as opposed to a grade end to end). Harder to spot. With all your curves, this is my guess.
Adding a bit of weight such as metal wheels may help prevent the wheels from climbing. I like gary raymond wheels, or, lgb. Metal wheels will also slide along before they climb the rail.
Make sure yor under chassis and axels are clean and everyting in place. This may help swivel.
Finally, but remote, sometimes the hooks have bent plastic springs, and in the right circumstances, they dont have adequate side movement and can push against a loop or another hook and cause a derailment. Fix is gently rebending the hook so it gets a memory, or, replacement.
Thats all ican think of. Are the derailments at a reverse curve? With such shrt stock it shouldnt be an issue at all, unless the track is torqued, ie not flat from side to side.


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Thanks everyone! 

The passenger cars don't actually derail, they just get dis-coupled, and then the loco comes back around and rams them. I'll try a few things here. I'll try the double hook and latch technique. I just don't have extras laying around to try right now. I have to pick some up extras. I took off the existing the latches and switched them around to the other cars, and that didn't help. 

I have success at times just pulling one passenger car. I've had it go for an hour or so successfully with one, but when I pull two, that's when they drop ... usually within a lap or two. The loco isn't struggling at any point in the loop, so it just confuses me. We'll get it worked out. 

I might pick up a small 0-4-0 diesel switcher and a few freight cars for fun anyway. I will also snag some extra hook & loop couplers to double up this set. 

Thanks again everyone. You guys are awesome! ;-)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

My observations on passenger.freight rolling stock hooand loop couplers:

USA trains, LGB, Bachmann, Trainli all use the same coupler mount system.
Aristo and HLW, Playmobil use a much different mount and mounts do not mate with any other manufacturers couplers.
Bachmann hook and loops are more brittle and have weaker springs than the others.

Note: Kadee makes knuckles that mount to most manufacturers cars and engines and have both body and truck mount versions.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Uncoupling, not derailment.

use a produce bag twist between the loco and the following car.
Double hooks will eliminate uncoupling. Grades cause the trailing loop to drop below the following car's loop: also, sometimes hooks droop due to springs, either soft, of poor alignment with hook.

Adding the "L" hook to the loco will eliminate uncoupling from the loco.


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

If I tried to pick up a powered tender for this train set, should i be looking for an older model? Or will new ones work as well? I'm not sure if the electrical connections between the loco and the tender changed since 1993ish? And if this is a cause for concern or not. 

Thanks.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

First, I made a mistake-the "L" hook for the loco will NOT work without a tender on sharper curves. I just pulled out a loco to test for you. The loco and coach roof overhangs will not clear. I just tried one of my locos with the L hook and a euro style coach, no go. keep the loop, until you get a tender.

second no, not all are compatible in terms of tender loco connections, but YES, it can be done.
older locos have two round holes in the cab floor. These used the round Marklin style plugs. 

newer locos have a small squarish looking box, looks like a covered outlet receptacle, black. This cover, which is pretty firmly inserted, can be gently prized out using a small knife tip, small pliers, or jewelers screw driver. Inside you will see two silver square pins, about the size of a staple-

these mate with the new style plugs.

BUT, one can connect the old and new by simply using the newer teather, and cutting off one end and attaching the marklin style plugs to the wires. The wire ends are stripped, pushed into the hole and then a set screw holds the wire in place, more or less.

If all this sounds like a PITA, (ie finding the plugs etc) both will run fine without being electrically tethered. The tether does help, but it is far from essential. It mostly matters on dirty track and some switches.

I believe too LGB offered a ready made old and new plug for just this purpose.
Marklin plugs btw are often available on ebay, and imho, are pretty cheap, even for Marklin.

third best advice-keep an eye on ebay for a red tender. OR, there was a black tender offered with decals, one of which was red, which would add a nice aesthetic continuity.

personally, the powered tenders are great, but, they seem to sell for a lot of money. the sound versions, of which I have only one, in yellow, are OK. I like sound, but I find these a bit annoying after a time. The are not synchronized to the revolution of the loco wheels, but rather track voltage, and can start before the loco does, or after, and likewise when the locos stops-it may continue chuffing away until you drop the voltage entirely. OTOH, they would likely delight some observers. I bought mine simply because I liked the yellow LG&B roundel logo.

the sound tenders have 2 triggers , magnetic, for whistle and bell. the sound is not bad, and, essentially the same as the stand alone American LGB sound box. Neither will have standing sounds, ie sound when stopped, without the use of a capacitor-this latter once offered from LGB pre digital change over, was pricey. now they are pretty rare.

overall, imho, I would not let sound be a factor. You could buy any color of course, and the find matching paint. But, be advised, having painted one tender like this, its not difficult, but, its not easy, as LGB detail parts are sort of welded on, and, it is a bit of an undertaking to strip the tender of details, re3move the glued in coal, and , if I recall, desolder the electrical outlet wiring.

Or , if talented, you could buy a black tender, and then paint on a side panel in red, with lining, lettering, number, etc. or even find some decal or adhesive stuff. I suppose, even some red vinyl tape, wide, might work, if done carefully, with yellow edges???LOL

theres a red tender right now on ebay. FWIW, I rarely see them. Point being, you may get lucky, or you may wait a long time.

good luck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This is what LGB said:

Now that you have more track, you have room for more cars. But what do you do when your starter set loco won't pull all your cars? You could get a new loco with more pulling power. There are plenty of great locos—steam, diesel and electric models—in the LGB program. Or you could make your starter set loco more powerful with a matching LGB motorized tender.

In real life, tenders carry fuel and water for locomotives, but LGB motorized tenders have something extra. They include a Bühler motor and protected gearbox, just like a regular LGB loco. Add one to your starter set loco, and you have the pulling power of two locos. The LGB program includes motorized tenders, including some with built-in electronic steam sound.

Installation is easy. A special coupler hook, included with the tender, replaces the standard coupler on the back of some starter set locos. (You'll need a Phillips-head screwdriver to make this change. You'll find one in the 50020 Special Tool Set.) Then couple the loco to the tender. An electrical jumper cable is also included to make an electrical connection between the tender and the loco. It will improve operation, especially on dirty track and over switches, but it is not required.

There is an additional problem of finding the correct matching tender.

Not all LGB 0-4-0's run at the same speed so it is necessary to find a motorized tender that runs at the same speed as your 0-4-0.

I bought the green Motorized 69472 Sound Tenders for the 73968 30th Birthday (Stainz) Starter Sets and the 69672 black Motorized Sound Tenders for my 73314 and 29310 sets.

That was a long time ago. 

I would guess that the 69672 (black) or 69572 (black & red) motorized sound tenders would work for you but I could not guarantee it.

Personally I love the sound of the motorized sound tenders. They may not be equal to today's digital sounds but I think they are a perfect match for those LGB 0-4-0's.

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Note some LGB powered tenders (later versions without the split case) had a set of switches for start delay. this was needed for the engines with the funky chuff sound as these had a diode bridge (voltage drop) to the motor.
You can not use the powered tender with the 2-4-0 American engine as these had an idler gear which makes these engines incompatible with the non idler gear engines.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Note some LGB powered tenders (later versions without the split case) had a set of switches for start delay. this was needed for the engines with the funky chuff sound as these had a diode bridge (voltage drop) to the motor.
> You can not use the powered tender with the 2-4-0 American engine as these had an idler gear which makes these engines incompatible with the non idler gear engines.


Respectfully, From the photo, this would not effect his loco, and a such a tender would be compatible. His loco doesn't have a voltage drop. Personally, i have never seen a switched tender, for OPs style /era, ('96-'98 ish) loco

but i take you at your word.

Talking only of the tender designed for the stainz based US style starter loco, also known as 2015, 2017, in the versions that include loco and tender.
I have 3 powered non clam tenders, the latest from '02, no switch.

To Jolt, the red one on ebay now will work with your loco, it is the same era.i am sure. Silver lines instead of yellow, not that this would matter re compatibility.

As for the speed issue, not to contradict jerry, who knows a lot about LGB, and always speaks from first hand knowledge, 
there can be slight differences, in my experience, but are minimal, and often due to variances in motors, ie some are built that have a slightly lower starting threshold, due to who knows what...same components, but slightly different. Typically, at say moderate speed, 5-8 volts, speed becomes the same.

Id go for the ebay offering,personally. The price is in the ball park, no bargain, but not $225.00 either. Or, if confused now, the produce bag twist...LOL.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*LGB 69672/69472 Motorized Sound Tender Starting Delay Circuit*



Jerry McColgan said:


> There is an additional problem of finding the correct matching tender.
> 
> Not all LGB 0-4-0's run at the same speed so it is necessary to find a motorized tender that runs at the same speed as your 0-4-0.
> 
> ...



*From the 69672 Black Motorized Sound Tender instructions:*


THE PROGRAM
This model is part of the LGB program
of quality G-scale trains and
accessories. With this model, we
recommend:
- 68334 Light Socket Adapter
- 70302 Passenger Starter Set
- 70402 Work Train Starter Set
-71314 LG&8 Passenger Starter
Set
- 71414 LG&8 Freight Starter Set
For more information on the complete
LGB program, see the LGB
catalog.

OPERATION
Preparation
Coupler: To couple this model to
most LGB twin-axle steam locomotives,
the original "loop" coupler
on the rear of the loco must be
removed and replaced with the
new "hook" coupler included with
this tender (Fig. 1). Make sure
that the new coupler plate is
installed with the flange facing
down.

Sound Operation
This model is equipped with a
volume control located on the bottom
of the model (Fig. 5).

Steam: The steam "chuff sound
produced by this model is voltage
dependent, not speed dependent.
As the voltage increases, the
chuff speed increases.

Hint: In some situations, the chuff
speed may not be synchronized
wi.th the loco speed. For example,
this may happen if:
a) a power supply with an output
less than 1 amp is used (see
Power Supply)
b) the loco is nol equipped with a
starting delay or voltage regulation
circuit.

*Starting delay circuit
This model is equipped with a
starting delay circuit to synchronize
the speed of the tender with
the speed of the loco. The delay
can be adjusted. Inside the tender
body, there are two DIP switches
labeled "S2 :"
- Both switches OFF: circuit on,
normal delay (factory pre-set)
- Switch 1 ON, switch 2 OFF: circuit
on, short delay
- Both switches ON: circuit off, no
delay
*

To test whether your loco and tender
have the same starting delay,
place them on the track with a few
inches between them. Turn on the
power and see whether their
speeds are the same at various
throttle settings.

Hint: When the starting delay circuit
is turned off, the sound does
not work when the train is moving
slowly.


***********************************************************************

From the *69472* instructions:

*69472*
30th Birthday Motorized Tender
with Steam Sound, *Green*

OPERATION
Preparation
Coupler: To couple this model to
most LGB twin-axle, steam locomotives,
the original "loop" coupler
on the rear of the loco must be
removed and replaced with the
new "hook" coupler included with
this tender (Fig. 1). Make sure
that the new coupler plate is
installed with the flange facing
down.

*Starting delay circuit
This model is equipped with a
starting delay circuit to synchronize
the speed of the lender with
the speed of the loco. The delay
can be adjusted. Inside the tender
body, there are two DIP switches
labeled "S2:"
- Both switches OFF: circuit on,
normal delay (factory pre-set)
- Switch 1 ON, switch 2 OFF: circuit
on, short delay
- Both switches ON: circuit off, no
delay*

To test whether your loco and tender
have the same starting delay,place them on the track with a few
inches between them. Turn on the
power and see whether their
speeds are the same at various
throttle settings.

Hint: When the starting delay circuit
is turned off, the sound does
not work when the train is moving
slowly.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> As for the speed issue, not to contradict jerry, who knows a lot about LGB, and always speaks from first hand knowledge,
> there can be slight differences, in my experience, but are minimal, and often due to variances in motors, ie some are built that have a slightly lower starting threshold, due to who knows what...same components, but slightly different. Typically, at say moderate speed, 5-8 volts, speed becomes the same.


Hi Steve,

There is a lot about LGB that I have no knowledge about and as you said, when I talk about something it is usually from first hand knowledge/experience. In this case I have a quantity of LGB 2-4-0's and 0-4-0's along with an equal quantity of Motorized Sound Tenders or, with the 2-4-0's, non-Motorized Sound Tenders.

Unlike Dan, who has a lot of experience with a large variety of LGB products, I have a fair amount of experience but with perhaps significant quantities of a relatively limited variety of LGB products.

I happened to remember that there was an adjustment provided in my LGB black and green motorized sound tenders but I had forgotten why and for which locos it was needed.

It took me awhile to dig out the old instructions as I could not find them online but the instructions clearly describe the Starting delay circuit:

This model is equipped with a starting delay circuit to synchronize the speed of the tender with the speed of the loco. The delay can be adjusted. Inside the tender body, there are two DIP switches labeled "S2:"

- Both switches OFF: circuit on, normal delay (factory pre-set)

- Switch 1 ON, switch 2 OFF: circuit on, short delay

- Both switches ON: circuit off, no delay

If I recall correctly, the main purpose was to get the sound to work even when the loco was standing still - either via MTS or by having the loco not move until sufficient voltage was present for the sound to start without the loco having to be moving.

Beyond knowing that I needed the Starting Delay for my specific 0-4-0's, I bought the locos and the tenders with the delay circuit, hooked them up together and promptly forgot all about it.

Hope this helps,

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
(Sheepish: a sub-dialect of English....LOL)

well, I learned something......
I don't have those latest versions, and I had no idea there were DIP switches inside.....

Thank you.....!!!!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> BAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
> (Sheepish: a sub-dialect of English....LOL)
> 
> well, I learned something......
> ...


Hi Steve,

I have the advantage of only posting about stuff I own - and only about things from my personal perspective.

That means that I get to be my own judge and jury and I usually get to be 100% correct because I have no personal need for knowledge or skills about any of the stuff I don't own or have not owned.

I never would have posted if I did not think I had the model of LGB 0-4-0 this topic was about - because I know little about the many LGB 0-4-0's or non-sound motorized tenders I don't own.

I think you know that back when I bought my 0-4-0's I was a Moderator for the LGB Club Forum so I had ready access to the real LGB experts at LGB of America.

I'm no expert - just an advanced consumer of LGB products.

I miss LGB and LGBoA and their highly skilled professionals every day.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Me too. 
I own too much lgb and know my stuff well.
Well at least, i have experience, and usually, but not always, a good assessment of troubles, quirks, and corrections. I like you, i think, dont mind digging in and attempting repairs.

I am certain, as i own the same era locos as OP, that my suggestions are apprpriate. Imhope he purchased the red tender which was/is on ebay. A perfect match for his set and uncoupling.

You and i know lgb is a slippery slope when it comes to acquisition.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jolthammer said:


> If I tried to pick up a powered tender for this train set, should i be looking for an older model? Or will new ones work as well? I'm not sure if the electrical connections between the loco and the tender changed since 1993ish? And if this is a cause for concern or not.
> 
> Thanks.









These images should help with your questions. As shown, the new square connector can be cut off and replaced with the older rounded ones. With a motorized tender the polarity is important (it can be verified by holding the loco or tender off the rails and applying power until you are sure they are turning in the same direction).

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

stevedenver said:


> Me too.
> I own too much lgb and know my stuff well.
> Well at least, i have experience, and usually, but not always, a good assessment of troubles, quirks, and corrections. I like you, i think, dont mind digging in and attempting repairs.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

This is where you and Dan leave me (and my limited LGB knowledge and skills) behind. 

My low voltage electrical and electronic training ended in the 60's. Since the 70's my technical skills have been primarily cable and wire management for contractors, industrials and utilities up thru 35kV. 

The fact is that I never had cause to work with DC voltage and DC circuits.

While I have large layouts with wires going everywhere, they amount to little more than two wires going here, two more wires going there and bunches of pairs of wires going elsewhere.

My memory and eyes are no longer very good and my large hands make it hard for me to work with little toy trains. The beauty of LGB for me is that I have hardly ever had to work on anything LGB. I don't mind working on something but LGB has never been willing to provide significant technical details that would give me the knowledge I might need to fix something beyond a simple parts replacement.

I don't think I have ever had any LGB steam locomotive totally apart. 

As you said, LGB is a slippery slope. Over the years I bought too much, built too much and I now have more to maintain than I can keep up with. On the other hand 95% of what I have will outlive me so I cannot think of a better hobby to have gotten into. Perhaps best of all are the friends all over the world.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,we are here to help/guide others in keeping their trains running, plus help everyone better understand their equipment. And we all are learning from each other.
My biggest issue like you is my memory is not as good as it was once was.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Jerry,we are here to help/guide others in keeping their trains running, plus help everyone better understand their equipment. And we all are learning from each other.
> My biggest issue like you is my memory is not as good as it was once was.


Hi Dan,

I agree but I now have a secondary issue of lowered mental acuity. I used to be very good at figuring complex issues out. These days some things that should be easy for me get put aside in the hope the solution will eventually come to me.

Now it can be a challenge just to run the layouts as it sometimes takes awhile just to figure out which switch controls which turnout/siding/train.

When I planned and built the layouts I never planned for the effects of aging. At least everything is track/Revolution/MTS powered and all the wiring is accessible.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Hoping I can pick your guys' brains again.

So, I liked your advice & I picked up an old LGB Tender made in West Germany. It's model 2015-6. I ran the powered tender solo on my track and it runs great. 

The person I bought it from sent me two sets of connector wires to connect to my locomotive. I uploaded some images for you here to look at. 

Are the plugs too big? Or is that how they fit? They just don't seem to plug in all the way/properly. Or do you really jam 'em in there? (wasn't planning to try that yet ;-)

Thanks again! 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b8omv7q839r651j/1.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2qn6zd6mnnnzna/2.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywmqnfh8xs826ek/4.jpg?dl=0


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Yup thats how they all fit.
And, at times, they wont stay put. When this happens grab an xacto, and gently and slightly, spread the pin. If you look closely, its not a solid pin, but is divided into quarters, for spring tension.

While it has no effect, it appears you need to run the tender backwards in order to have its traling hook engage the locos loop. You might want to call train-li, and see if they have the proper hook, as in jerrys diagram.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*LGB 2015D & 2017D Parts Diagrams*

I scanned these 2015D & 2017D Parts Diagrams for you from my LGB 1991-1992-1993-1994 Service Manual:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/2-4-0/LGB 2015D & 2017D Parts Diagrams.pdf

As I understand it, you need diagram parts 39 & 40 which would be part numbers 2015/32 and 2015/45 (screw & washer not included). I did not find where they ever had stand alone part numbers.

Of course, that was back in 1993 when LGB and LGB of America were available for such parts. It is possible that Train-Li or AllAboutLGB might have access to the parts. You could also post in the Wanted Section of MLS and might find someone with a spare set.

In the meantime, I would just use a cable tie with a close but not touching fit.


On January 1, 1993 LGB went to a 5 number system and officially changed these model numbers to:

2015/4 - 65154
2015D - 20151
2017D - 20171

D (smoke/no sound) was replaced by 1
S (smoke/with sound) was replaced by 2

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Awesome! Thanks guys! Thanks for the scan too Jerry!

So just for my knowledge, what exactly do these wires do? Share the power? Share speed controls? I honestly have no clue.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Jolthammer said:


> Awesome! Thanks guys! Thanks for the scan too Jerry!
> 
> So just for my knowledge, what exactly do these wires do? Share the power? Share speed controls? I honestly have no clue.



You are welcome.

The wires simply connect the track power to both the loco & tender. That is why polarity must match.

They in effect double the track electrical contacts (from 6 to 12) which greatly improves smooth running over dirty (tarnished) track and switches (turnouts).

I have never owned these locos or tenders but the wiring diagrams suggest to me there are no speed controls etc. - just simple wiring from the track to the lights and motors with diodes (parts 133) to control headlight in forward and tender light in reverse only.

Remember - these locos & tenders were pre-1994, pre-digital sound etc.

There appear to be no circuit boards so no 5 volt lights or smoke units. Everything is probably straight 0 - 22 Volts DC (smoke unit is rated at 18 volts DC).

D suggests to me working smoke units but I don't see the complete smoke circuit.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/LGB/2-4-0/LGB 2010D & 2015D Smoke Generator.pdf








Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

LGB also offered the 64102 Coupler Set, Metal Spring "for older LGB locos" and the 64802 Coupler Set, Metal Spring "for 2080-series locos"

Both are hook & loop type (not swinging hook).

I have no idea if either would fit a 2015D (one of this type coupler is pictured in my above post but I don't recognize the loco or motor block).

Jerry


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## Jolthammer (Jul 7, 2016)

Now that I bought that tender, I only have the starter set LGB 5003 transformer. It was fine for my loco and 2 passenger cars on 40 ft of track. I haven't tried running it with the loco + tender yet. 

I probably won't be expanding my track or adding more locos in this area of my yard or this set up. Does anyone have a recommendation on a simple Power Supply for Loco + Tender. Doesn't sound like the toy transformer will be cutting it anymore.

Thanks.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Trainli has the parts for the hook and bracket plus the screw and washer as separate parts and a kit with these parts plus tender handrails.
Look under LGB parts.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

Jolt:
let me offer my own experience, and that which I have seen with so many others.

it is likely your interest will grow.
I too first had a garden circle, and a couple small locos, one like yours. then a mogul, then more cars, then sidings, then, POLA buildings.
more and larger locos, possibly electrical stuff, like lighted buidlings, switchs, etc.
all of this stuff is seemingly rather pricey, then, you get accustomed to it, and, well, its not pretty.......but its so fun, especially lighted coachs and stations at night.......

to answer your question, your starter tranny WILL work, but, it may overheat. it is only 1/2 amp. no problem, it has an auto circuit breaker which resets once the unit cools. this is effected by load, ie how many cars, grades, and, oddly lower speeds-higher speeds tends not to overload as quickly as there is less resistance. but in the long run, (or short run if you will) its not going to be satisfying, as simply its underpowered. it is designed for one motor, and not much more.

I don't know if you know the term/rating voltamps, but you may see this on power packs. what it means it the total combination of volts and amps. so a unit that puts out 20 volts, and 2 amps, would be rated as 40 volt amps. to put this in plainer language, 20 volts would make you loco run very fast , 12 volts not so fast. 2 amps would power 4 motors tops, no extra loading. so while 40 sound immense, its not. its a bit more than adequate for your needs. consider too to the above example, its the TOTAL, so if you add some incandescent lights, coach lights, etc, there is less water in the well.

that being said, you can get a 3 amp or five amp , or, bite the bullet and go 10 or 15. Big power packs are pricey indeed.

(LGB locos draw less power, per loco, than many other makes. if you use non LGB locos, as I understand things , you may well NEED a 10 amp unit.)

if you want the minimum, the newer LGB starter power packs are red with a separate black throttle, and are one amp. they will run both loco and tender, and again, little more. you may find one cheaply. in fact , you may be able to find and entire starter set w the newer power pack and throttle on ebay for less than a new power pack and throttle from a retailer.

MRC also makes some units as well, one ten amp. I have an old 6200, and its about three amps, was fine, until I added larger locos and longer load. it too eventually overheated. the n scale and ho scale packs really wont be what you need, although the higher output ones may do the job.

I have the LGB 6 amp AC power pack, with the "Hut" style, weather proof throttle which converts the ac to DC. if you like this option, be CERTAIN to get the latest version of the hut, early versions did not convert ac to dc, and your loco wont do well at all on AC. a good deal of power and very smooth operation.

I also have the 10 LGB jumbo. great throttle but has no ac outlet at all for accessories. also a great throttle with momentum-i.e., gradual stops and starts. on drawback to this unit is there is no off/on switch, so it must be unplugged. still a big powerful great unit. sometimes you can get them reasonably on ebay.

my favorite brand is bridgwerks. they make a super product, fan cooled, powerful, and with multiple connection points. one for track, one for fixed 24 volt DC, one for 12 volt fixed DC (great for lights) and a 16 volt ac outlet, for switches and motors etc. extremely convenient as you add this stuff, and, I think, over time, you may well do so.
another real plus for bridgewerks, aside from super post sale customer support and out of warranty repairs, is that they use banana plugs so you can make the connections, and use these easy to disconnect plugs to move the non weather proof unit in , easily, as needed. this is a huge help. basically a banana plug is like a wall plug of sort-you needn't thread wires into terminal posts or screw down terminals-the wires are attached to the plugs and they plug into the unit (the unit also can accept wires directly without the plugs.

I like MORE power, and I lliek 10 amps minimum. why? simply because you are unlikely to overload the unit, provided you are only running about 1-3 locos with loads. Power units at this rating are expensive, but, if you buy ONE up front, you wont have the collection that I do.......

best of luck.


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