# Leveling Stainless Steel Track on an Irregular Wood Surface?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am in the process of expanding a layout plus removing all the old brass track and turnouts and replacing them with new Aristo-Craft Stainless Steel track and turnouts. 

The original layout was built on sections of 4' x 8' plywood mounted on 2" x 4" frames. The new expansion is built on treated 5/4 decking mounted on 2" x 8" framing with 2" x 6" joists.

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Over the years the original plywood has developed somewhat of an irregular surface particularly where the plywood sections join. I believe this is the result of partial delaminating as I have not had such a problem develop on the interior layout which is built of the same construction (other than without using treated wood).

I built the new expansion with treated decking to avoid the delaminating problem but I was not successful at getting all of its 68 pieces of 16' decking perfectly level with the adjacent pieces so there is some irregularity with the surface of the decking.

The result for both the old and the new sections is the same - the surface of the wood under the outdoor carpeting is overall level but with up to 1/4" variations between some individual pieces of wood under the carpeting.

I am considering alternatives to keep the new stainless steel track level. My current thought is to remove a number of screws that attach some of the ties (to the rails to allow for thermal expansion and contraction) and to use something like pieces of heavy duty black (UV resistant) cable ties, tongue depressors or craft (Popsicle) sticks for spacers to raise the ties as needed to keep the track level.

My assumption is that craft sticks and tongue depressors would not be a good idea because (I assume) they would quickly deteriorate outdoors but I cannot think of anything else readily available to use to add height to the rails.

One thought I had was to allow the stainless steel track to naturally flex with some droop in the plywood surface but that brings up a couple of questions:

1. Could a loco such as a USA or MTH Hudson, Big Boy or Challenger handle any noticeable droop in the rails without derailing?

2. If the stainless steel track was rising over a hump in the wood how near or far apart would the raised ties have to be (how far could unsupported stainless steel track support a heavy locomotive)? This is sort of like how close the trestle bents would have to be to support track going over them?

I am assuming that others who have built above ground layouts will have run into similar problems and I am curious how they might have solved their problems.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Can you knock down the humps with a belt sander? 

Not quite like trestle bents as they should have stringers over them, helping to support the track in between 'em.... 

I don't remove the screws in the ties/rails because the plastic expands too and I figure the SS will control that somewhat. My experience has shown that to be true, for me. My temps vary between 14 and 114 degrees.... no ill affects, so far. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unsupported track will eventually sag, even over 6 inches with heavy locos. 

I'd lay the track and shim up, but use pieces of plastic so they won't absorb moisture. I'd use an inexpensive self-levelling laser to do this. 

Of course, it seems that your original problem is from moisture absorption. 

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I had thought about that but the deck is so large (16' x 32') and even the older deck has humps in it which would make a surface of 12' x 72' plus 4' x 32' to be sanded that I decided not to make the effort but to instead deal with it after the carpet was laid. I had toyed with the idea of using sand under the carpet to level it but discarded that idea for several reasons. 

Now I am committed to dealing with the humps and dips as they exist rather than to consider removing the carpet and doing anything directly with the wood.

It should be easy enough to find the right spacing material and to just level whichever tracks need support. I just have not yet settled on which spacing materials to use because I don't know what may be available that I am not aware of.

I always like to find out what others have done before I resort to my own ideas because often someone will have thought of something that I have not.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, for shims, you might be able to slice up some scrap plastic pieces in a table saw. The problem will be getting plastic that will stand UV exposure. Black is always good, because the carbon black used to tint it naturally shields the underlying plastic from UV. 

You need a big sheet of surplus something... 

Greg


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Jerry,
Since you don't want to got to the trouble of fixing it right, I would suggest using washers for your spacing.
Ralph


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Mar 2011 12:11 PM 
it seems that your original problem is from moisture absorption. 

Greg 

That was my conclusion and why I decided against putting a major effort into sanding the decking perfectly level. My mind was made up when I noticed that some of the brand new decking was trying to curve up and down, left and right and to even to develop a curve in the middle lengthwise.

I decided that even if I leveled the deck by sanding I could not prevent future effects of weather (without a significant extra cost and labor with paint, stain, waterproofing etc.) resulting from cycles of the wood getting hot and cold, wet and dry.

There are several cartons of plastic garden edging that I bought years ago intending to use it on a previous layout but never did. Its mainly a question of how much and how often to use it or something else. I had forgotten about that edging until just now. It may be just what I need.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Ralph Berg on 15 Mar 2011 12:26 PM 

Jerry,
Since you don't want to got to the trouble of fixing it right, I would suggest using washers for your spacing.
Ralph 


Hi Ralph,

I readily admit to being a lazy and relatively incompetent craftsman. Woodworking is a skill I have no aptitude for and no desire to put the effort in to become proficient at it.

A strip or square of plastic would be more practical in my opinion because it would take two screws and two washers to level a tie where one screw and a strip of plastic would do the same job and at lower overall cost.

I am open to any and all ideas but I will lean most toward whatever involves the lowest cost and least amount of work.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Lollipop sticks under the sleepers, and stick them / nail them to the planks. 

regards 

ralph (with a small "r")


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like your between a rock and a hard spot. Anything you do now will still only be a temporarily fix. It's going to be an on going project. I think I would just do it right now and be done with it. Large areas of wood will always tend to give you problems due to the elements. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The New River and Western MOW crew have been known to make slight errors in the side level of the road bed. This is usually due to the fact the MOW train not only had a Kitchen car with a full fledged chef but also a Bar Car with a Bartender. It Turns out the Engineer who drives the train is the designated driver. So he drinks Sioux City Sarsaparilla Which they keep in ample supply 

Any way In order to correct such in inaccuracies we use 1/4 fender washers under the ties. They buy them in large crates. ( by the box) The ballast covers them and now one knows the difference.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

An after thought...I would just replace it. If it is coming apart it is only going to be more trouble down the road as more comes apart. 

JJ


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am still looking for those boxes of garden edging. I think they may work out pretty well based on a single piece I found so far.

Several significant factors in my decision not to sand the decking before I laid the carpeting were:

1. The new treated lumber was still wet with the preservatives (it is hard to sand wet wood)
2. I have read that the chemicals used in treating lumber are known to contain carcinogens and there are medical concerns regarding sawing or sanding treated lumber
3. It has been raining lately and I was unwilling to wait for the wood to dry before continuing with construction
4. If I did wait for the wood to dry before installing it, the wood would have become much less flexible and much more prone to warping
5. Every day I start out by taking my pills including pain killers for my back. I never know how much work I will be able to do before my back will make me quit. I have been really surprised that my back has not given out many times forcing me to quit before I got the deck and layout extension finished.

I have accepted the fact that there will be some ongoing physical changes in the wood due to weather but with the declining health of myself and my wife we don't know how many years we will be able to continue to live here. Rather than worry about long term problems we focus instead on short term problems and short term solutions.

My goal has been to complete the layout extension before the weather turns hot so I can spend my days enjoying the layout rather than wishing I had started and finished earlier.

I think I am going to make it.

Jerry


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

Take a hint from an indoor modeler. take some of the boards and use them as the base that the track is at, this method has an advantage and a disadvantage: 
the advantage is that you will have a more real looking railway in that the surrounding terrain will be unlevel. 
the diadvantage is that changing the track route will be harder because you would need to tear up the base boards and replace them 
your call 
-JJWtrainman


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By jjwtrainman on 16 Mar 2011 05:59 PM 
Take a hint from an indoor modeler. take some of the boards and use them as the base that the track is at, this method has an advantage and a disadvantage: 
the advantage is that you will have a more real looking railway in that the surrounding terrain will be unlevel. 
the diadvantage is that changing the track route will be harder because you would need to tear up the base boards and replace them 
your call 
-JJWtrainman 

That is a good idea and the fellow who built the trestles my wife bought had done it by cutting a base for the track to rest on when he assembled the trestles. That will make our reassembling the trestles much easier. 



There will be somewhere over 600' of track to lay and level so I need a quick, easy and inexpensive way to level the track. I think I have found it with the *Suncast Quick Edge 20' Interlocking Landscape Edging* I bought several years ago from Walmart.

The Suncast Quick Edge 20' Interlocking Landscape Edging contains forty 6-inch (6"L x 0.4"W x 5.5"H each) sections of interlocking edging. They are wider at one end which makes it possible to grade a section of track which can be as long or short as desired by sliding as many sections together as needed. 











http://www.walmart.com/ip/Suncast-Q...ifications

I have not yet started screwing it down but it appears to be the perfect solution in that it is a bit wider than the track and being black it blends in with the black ties. It should be UV resistant and unaffected by weather.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Well you could do what all the rich people in Scotsdale AZ are doing. Concrete







Cover everything with one or two inches of concrete like in Concrete counter tops.









HE HE HE HE HE


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By John J on 20 Mar 2011 04:51 PM 
Well you could do what all the rich people in Scotsdale AZ are doing. Concrete







Cover everything with one or two inches of concrete like in Concrete counter tops.









HE HE HE HE HE


Hey JJ,

I always thought that the "perfect lawn" would be green dyed concrete!









Sometimes I think my wife found this place in the country so that she would not continue to be embarrassed by my lack of lawn care. 

I think I had an epiphany event years ago when 3M opened the new center in Austin, Texas and rather than the meticulous lawn care of the St. Paul Center 3M kept the Austin Center pretty much in a natural state without all the grounds-keeping. 3M said it was to protect the natural environment so that is my story and I am sticking to it.









Now the deer and raccoons are my "proof" that I am not a lazy homeowner - I am a naturalist and a conservationist (and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale).









Heck, nothing grows here anyway - the land was burned out by cotton farming around the turn of the century.









Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Jerry Jerry Jerry

There is a term for your type of yard and there is no reason to be embarrassed.

It is call " A no mess yard. You don't mess with it" 

It's all the rage here in AZ. Ever since our Illeagal imagrents left for greener pastures.









I had one since I moved in this house 13 years ago. 

JJ


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I was putting a post in concrete today and when looking for some concrete I found a bag of chicken grit that I had bought years ago for ballast to use on my garage layout (which I never did finish the ballast on).

It happened that yesterday I was reading an article about railroad ballast in an old Model Railroader. That got me to thinking about using that chicken grit on top of the green outdoor carpeting and under the new stainless steel track to make up for the irregular wood surface.

Unlike the ballast used on normal garden railroads there is no dirt etc. for the chicken grit to be absorbed into so it would take a fairly small amount of chicken grit to level the track on the Caboose Layout.

Am I missing something? Is there something I am not thinking about that would make this a dumb idea? I don't think even a strong wind would blow the chicken grit away and I seem to remember others (years ago) using chicken grit for ballast with some using some Elmer's glue to hold the chicken grit together (perhaps this was just on indoor layouts).

One potential problem that I thought of is that I usually clear my outside layouts with a leaf blower to get rid of leaves, twigs etc. If I use the chicken grit I would need to either seal it with Elmer's or something or I will have to be very careful with the leaf blowers to avoid blowing all the chicken grit away.

I am thinking about trying it on some of the most uneven parts of the layout just to see how it works.

Is anyone using chicken grit and if so what have your experiences been with it?

Thanks,

Jerry


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