# Aristo Craft short Overton 3 car set, prototype?



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys:I am aware of the Sierra 9 window coach prototype.Is the Aristo Craft Overton coach complete fiction or is there a prototype coach ?I once viewed an American Western which featured a steam locomotive hauling a private car of similar appearance to the Aristo Overton coach.The film featured an evil railroad president who was tracked down by some cowboy he had wronged.The evil railroad president was wheel chair confined.Anyone know the name of the Western film?Norman


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone know the name of the Western film? 

Wild, Wild West with Will Smith, Kevin Branagh and Kevin Kline. Also starring the B&O RR Museum's #25 William Mason 4-4-0:


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

There's a prototype in a museum in PA, except it's a longer car. I have a photo somewheres. It has the 3 door ends like the sierra coaches do.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Is the Aristo Craft Overton coach complete fiction or is there a prototype coach ? 
Now that I'm focusing on the coach, not the movie - isn't the Aristo coach a "Sierra" and the USA Trains coach an "Overton" ? Which are you referring to? 

Both are based on the D&RGW coaches, I believe. Incidentally, the interior of the coach in the movie was actually a set - it never moved. There was one long shot of the train and a sunset - the B&O RR Museum used to have a couple of ancient wooden coaches like these, but one got demolished when the roof fell in.

Check out the USA Overton Cars thread http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/17/aft/117595/afv/topic/Default.aspx [ www dot mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/17/aft/117595/afv/topic/Default.aspx if that link gets corrupted. ] 

Both coaches are seriously compressed, as is the Bachmann J & S coach. On top of that, they both are 1/24th scale, I think, which makes them small by LS standards. (There are threads around here about converting two of them into a single long 1/29th coach?)


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## 22train (Mar 13, 2008)

Overton was a mining town in the Sierra foothills near Jamestown, Calif. The route from Jamestown to Overton and Angels Camp was short and steep. In order to make the route work numerous switchbacks were installed in the line. the switch backs accommodated the 34 foot cars and are a site to see at the California Railroad Museum in Jamestown, Calif. Numerous movies have been made using these cars. Including Wild,Wild West. I was thoroughly imprinted when I first saw the cars in about 1955.


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## dtetreault (Jan 23, 2008)

This is what they look like when you join 2 of them together.








Dennis


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

That looks good Dennis. its a fun project









Later on I reowrked the roof and filled in some of the vent holes.


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## dtetreault (Jan 23, 2008)

Marty,
I saw your build post and decided I liked the cars longer. Thanks for the inspiration. I now have a baggage car, combine, 2 coaches and an observation car. 
Dennis


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Here ya go. I knew I had these:


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

very fun, Tom, thats the photo that got me thinking back then. 
FYI 
personally I have one car that is shorter by a pair of windows that I think "looks" more balanced.


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Torby: 

What museum is that long coach located at? 
How many roof windows exist in the coach? 
Is there also a combine version of this car in the museum? 

Norman


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Torby: 

I now see the upper coach photo, ( viewing internet on a small screen ). 
16 windows or 8 double windows of the Aristo Sierra car. 

Hi Marty: 

Maybe you could add an air tank to the centre of the coach bottom as per the museum. 


Norman


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

By looking at the photo of the real car it is located at the B&O Museum ( http://www.borail.org/BO-No445-Coach.aspx ). The B&O Museum does not list a combine or any other style of this car.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Andre Anderson on 09 Apr 2012 01:25 AM 
By looking at the photo of the real car it is located at the B&O Museum ( http://www.borail.org/BO-No445-Coach.aspx ). The B&O Museum does not list a combine or any other style of this car. 
Guys,

We're talking apples and oranges here. The B&O coach is a standard gauge, luxury vehicle made for high-speed service on the "Royal Blue" service to NYC (to compete with the PRR.) And no - the B&O doesn't have a combine; I suspect the "Royal Blue" used full baggage-express-mail cars anyway.












The Overton and Sierra cars are short cars that are considerably smaller. Due to the small size of the prototype, making two 1/24th scale narrow-gauge cars in to a long 1/29th scale standard gauge car seems to work. 










From http://nkncat.blogspot.com/2011/06/railtown-1897.html [ nkncat.blogspot.com/2011/06/railtown-1897.html ]
"These cars were specially built for a particularly twisty branch line, to Angels Camp, CA"


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

The B&O coach is indeed the prototype for the Sierra Coach. The Sierra Coach was bought from Delton when they went defunct, and in those days all G gauge was or had to look like narrow gauge, so it was scaled to 1/24 and shortened. I got this info from Lewis Polk who got it from the Delton designer, whose name I forget. Aristo still uses the delton molds. The combine was made up as well as the obs.

They look nice behind my Bachmann Annie. Since they're rather heavy and have metal wheels, they track very well. I just don't like Annie to get too close to Mdm. Mallet as she's way bigger. 


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The standard gauge coach on display at the B&O Museum is NOT the prototype modeled by Delton/Aristocraft IMO; while it is similar in overall looks it does not accurately depict the Delton/Aristocraft offering. In fact this car #445 is an imposter re-created for B&O’s centennial celebration of 1927. Coach #445 is shorter than the original Pullman Narrow Vestibule coaches. The Royal Blue Line, Pullman Narrow vestibule design coaches had 60’ car bodies, 67.5’ end to end, and were built in the late 1890’s. 

If you look closely at the window detail and spacing of #445 and Marty’s bashed Aristo coach (pic above), you’ll note a difference as compared to the Delton/Aristo offerings. The Delton/Aristo offering appears to be modeled after the Royal Blue coach depicted below…

Not sure when or where Aristo or whoever coined the Sierra coach reference to the Delton/Aristo offerings but they are clearly anything but Sierra coaches. The original “shorty” coaches were specifically built for the standard gauge Sierra Railroad’s Angels Camp Branch in 1902 by Holman and Company of San Francisco, CA in 1902. These cars are approximately 34’ in length overall and were only used on the Sierra R.R.. The “shorty” Sierra coaches and Sierra loco #3 were used by the movie industry and appeared in many well known movies and TV shows.

Delton offered a rendition of the “shorty” coaches which closely depicts the Sierra RR’s #5 Combine and #6 Coach. HLW or Harltand purchased the molds for these coaches. Note there is a grand difference in the coaches as compared to Deltons original closed vestibule coach, which are often incorrectly referred to as Sierra coaches. The USAT "Overton" offering is a pretty close match to the “shortys’ as they modeled a nine window coach (14.75"L - 1:24=30') verses the Delton with seven windows (12"L - 1:24=24' or 1:29=29').

I’m not convinced where the term or reference Overton originated from with regard to the “shorties”. I’ve heard when MDC modeled HO “shorties” the Overton was attached/included therein. I noted “22train” suggested there was a mining town nearby Jamestown, I can’t confirm the existence of said mining village near Jamestown or within the reaches of the Sierra R.R.. I found a reference to the “Overton Mine” it’s located near the northwestern tip of Northern California west of Mount Shasta, CA. I found reference to a town that was developed as “Overton” in 1896 located north of Truckee, CA in the Sierra Nevada Hills that was renamed Hobart Mills, mining was not mentioned, lumber mills and associated industry was noted. 

Michael




















USAT Overton coach (above)

Delton/HLW coach (below)


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Michael and Pete: 

Great information! 
The C&O No. 409 coach has only six double window sets. ( combination baggage and passenger car ) 
http://www.borail.org/CO-No-409.aspx 

I did not know that Delton produced the original molds for these Aristo Craft shorty cars. Dave Fletcher did not mention this in his history of Delton trains. 

So, I guess two 1:29 standard / 1:24 narrow gauge passenger cars could be made from three coaches and one observation to create one long coach and one long observation. 

The 1/24 and 1/29 bodies approximate each other, just the track gauge is off ( which I ignore ) 

Too bad that Aristo Craft did not also offer these short 1/24 cars also as long 1/29 cars. 

Here is the link to the Delton molds HLW long coaches: 

http://www.h-l-w.com/Products/l_coaches.html 

These Delton molds HLW long coaches have one more set of double windows with far more spacing between the double window frames. 
The Aristo Craft version is better looking with the fancy oval end window. 

An Aristo Craft coach stretched to the length of the Delton/HLW long coach would look about right. 
Six sets of double windows with the end oval window would be a good length as narrow gauge long passenger cars. This would match the length of the LGB and Bachmann long passenger cars. 
So I guess six double window frames would look just right for a narrow gauge model. Too expensive a kitbash to mess up perfectly good cars though! 
The Aristo Craft short car has 9 roof windows. The HLW long car has 10 roof windows. Not enough of a change in car length to justify such an expensive narrow gauge car project. 

It appears that Phil Jensen, the Delton and now HLW mold designer, used the C&O No. 409 combination coach for his inspiration of a narrow gauge passenger car. 

http://www.borail.org/CO-No-409.aspx 

Marty's kitbash is a nice standard gauge passenger car. I think those long eight double side windowed cars need the longer Aristo Craft heavyweight passenger trucks to balance the length of the car. 

The more I look at the HLW long coach and the Aristo short coach, the only bash that really is worth while for myself is Marty's standard gauge long passenger coach version with the installation of the standard gauge Aristo heavy weight trucks. 

I could later re-use the Aristo short narrow gauge coach trucks on my Bachmann long coaches. 

An expensive but tempting standard gauge kitbash project. 


Norman 















Norman


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

The Aristo 'sierra' coach was never a Delton product, it was developed by Aristo at the outset (actually the company was called REA at the time), and was loosely based on the B&O prototype mentioned, as was the B&O president 4-6-2 the basis of the Aristo Pacific, not the USRA pacific. Much of the Aristo line has been based on B&O prototypes, even loosely, and other stuff like the Penn 0-4-0, but the Mt Clare museum has played a part in their model development over the years. 

The Delton long and short coaches were never part of the Bankruptcy sale to Aristo, since Delton never owned the molds (they leased them from the tool maker in a cost cutting venture), and as such the banks could not touch the coaches. The Delton coaches are now part of the Hartland range, with the long coaches said to be based on a NY coach, edited for NG look, well according to Phil Jensen who designed them. I think the actual sides/design were taken from the SG parlour car preserved at the Colorado State RR Museum, when Phil visited the museum to measure up the D&RGW reefer, box car and gon, which were also produced by Delton. Only the Delton freight cars, caboose and C-16 locos were sold to Aristo at the Bankruptcy auction. 

David.


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