# Bachmann's new C19



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi,

Bachmann have released a video of the new (October ) C19 onto YouTube


Here is a link to it http://www.youtube.com/wa...dex=1&feature=plcp


Yours Peter.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it prototypical for the rear fireman's side cab door to hinge at the outside of the cab and the engineer's rear door to hinge inside near the firebox? Looks kinda strange to me, but I don't know how the real ones were hinged.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If I recall, on 346, they both hinge on the outside, but I'm not 100% positive. Normally they pop the hinges and remove the doors during operations. 

Later, 

K


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Yup they got it wrong, both doors open to the out side, it helped block some of the cold wind on the deck plate when the fireman was shoveling coal into the fire box.It should be easy enough to fix, by either re swinging the door or removing them both.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. the video says their C-19 will operate on "medium sized curves." Can we assume that means 8 ft. dia.? Or 10?


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

The C-19 will operate on either LBG R2 curves or Aristo 5' diameter curves. 

Stan


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Re the rear doors, at least for the 1880s, Bachmann got it right. Not sure whether that format was retained in the 1920s-30s for these engines. 

Basically the design was this: 
Fireman's side, hinged at the outside (hinged on the LHS), allowed the fireman direct access to the tender deck for firing the engine. 
The engineer's door was hinged also on the LHS, or inboard, which allowed the engineer to step off the loco easily to get to the lineside switches or onto the line side for oiling etc. This was common practice for these cabs of the late 1870s and 1880s, the original drawings show it. Its correctly done for the model. 

In later life, it may well have changed. 

David.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Ya loin som'n' new ever day... Thanks! 

Later, 

K


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Andre, Kevin, and David. Now the question becomes - are they correct for the era modeled? hehehe


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, from the B&W photo books, the C-16, 18 and 19 in the 20s-50s were hung just like the Bachmann model, You can see it in the photos, some you have to look at real carefully. However the Musem's restored version I think is hinged only from the outside, as is their new #191 cab, which is definitely not correct. I should point out also that these doors didn't flap around, but were retained in place via the brass sliding rod and screw system at the tops of the doors, which kept them open in place. There is an excellent photo of C-16 #283 up on blocks about to be sent off to the NCNG, and you can see the hinges easily, both hinged on the LHS, and thats a modernised version. So I think in answer, prototypically Bachmann have it right, if based on a restored engine, then its wrong! 

David.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

are they correct for the era modeled? 
Dwight, 
I was surprised when I saw them, as all versions have the old-style domes. All the Accucraft C-19s have smooth, modern domes (and modern air brakes, etc.) You wouldn't believe how much piping, etc., that I took off my C-19 to back-date it to 1910-ish. I also had to take the boiler out to swap domes to old-style. Here's how it was:











And here's how it looks these days:










Not too much different from Bachmann's version (apart from the propulsion!)











When did the smooth domes get installed, typically?


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Bachmanns C-19 looks great! If they took learning’s from the K-27 and built upon that I’m sure we have a great loco on our hand! 

Alan


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan, Jack Lynch stated at the NGRC, that they have learned from the K27. The sample that was presented at the clinic ran very smooth. Jack also successfully installed 3 different manufacturers PnP decoders.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Jim, that's great news. So I guess its a lower gearing that the K-27?


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, he did mention the gear ratio and metal gears.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

There is only one modern version C19, the undecorated model.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

There is only one modern version C19, the undecorated model. 
Interesting. And RGS #40 and the Bumble Bee get the old-style headlamp. 

When did the smooth domes get installed, typically? 
Still wondering. . .


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

This is going to sound remarkable, but it's true. They're all the same domes. The "ornate" ones simply have rings around them. Take off the rings, and you have smooth domes. 346 was missing her "ring" when Bob Richardson purchased her for his Narrow Gauge Motel, but picked up the one off of the wreck of 345 when they made the film Denver & Rio Grande, or she'd have a "smooth" dome also. 

346 was wrecked by the C&S on Kenosha Pass, and rebuilt with a C&S Steel cab, which could account for the hinges on the doors being different. The original cab and the steam dome ring were destroyed in the accident shen she lost her air on the downgrade. The C&S rebuilt her before she was returned to the D&RGW. 

As a sidenote, 346 also had some odd "half" flanged drivers in the middle, aparently applied by the C&S, instead of the usual blind drivers. Keep in mind that the 346 was built in 1881, and retired from active service in 1950 by it's second owner, the Montezuma Lumber Co. There probably wasn't much left that was original... 

To be honest, it's kind of a pity that our friends at Bachmann didn't do the C&S version with the Ridgway Beartrap. Or the Montezuma Lumber Co. version. Or even as she is today, with the Green Boiler (ducks!). 

Robert


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Pete, 

Interesting question re the domes - from the 5 part series that has appeared in the Gazette on the T12 class(the later name for the class) of 4 6 0's they were delivered as Class 45 (and a half) in 1882, with rings, their larger cousins Class 47 were delivered in 1883 with modern (smooth - no rings) domes in 1883. That is from the photos in the article. The later ones (12) comprised the T12 class.

That was for new construction, any major damage after that date would, unless the shop could keep the dome rings of the earlier ones, be I guess the modern smooth domes.

That is my thinking, David Fletcher has much more knowledge than me!

Yours Peter.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just conjecture, but in the mid - 1910's, the iron boilered C-19 Class had had their boilers replaced by steel ones. My guess would be that the steam domes were replaced at the same time, doubtful the old ones would work. That's probalby when the fluting "went away." 

I think Bachmann should do more versions of the C-19, as well as more versions of the K-27, especially since all it would take would be minor changes in detail parts and paint schemes. Of course, I'd like to see an inside valve version of the K's... 

Problem is, who buys more than one or two of them? 

Robert


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Well anyone who gets a look at a Baldwin card of the ringed domes can see how they were cast and in the segements they were assembled. The smooth rounded domes are not the same as ringed ones with the rings removed, the rings are not just attached to the sides. which is also why it took parts from the wreck of #345 to finally put #346 back to the correct look - they needed the complete top casting to put the dome right, where the C&S had wrecked the top castings and rapidly stuck on an alternate, while the lower casting was OK. 
The rounded domes on Baldwin locos rolled out during 1882, and with it a new set of style cards for painting the domes. I can look to find the first engine so done if you like. It really was about updating and providing a more sleak and modern look to locomotices and leaving the Classical architecture behind. I suspect the D&RG's own upgrades over the years (many rounded domes added in the late 1880s), were more about trying to make their aging fleet look more up-to-date. 
I'm glad Bachmann are doing both dome types. Accucraft also did a full ringed dome version of #346 (not the C&S repair version, which is far more common), but it was sold through the museum only, limited number made. 

David.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Getting back to the doors, I was climbing around the cab of #346 today (technically, the deckplate, as the cab doors were locked). Both doors hinged on the outside. Take that for what it's worth--an example of one specific locomotive cab that may or may not be indicative of practice on other locos. 

Later, 

K


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin

For the two C-19s at Knotts, both have doors that are hinged on the inside. (the locks are on the outside) which makes it easier to get the doors out of the way for people getting on and off the cab.

The practice of where to hinge the doors has clearly changed over the life of these locomotives and as pointed out in a previous post the hinging of the doors on the Bachmann model follow the practice at an earlier point in time. I have no idea for each locomotive when this change may have occured.

Clearly if you are modeling at a later point in time almost any variation is likely prototypical as these locomotives went through a lot of rebuilds and even today the practices at Knotts and CRRM differ.

Stan


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

I ran one of the new C -19s on Stan's railway last weekend. 
It's a nice looking locomotive and smooth running.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Paul Norton on 24 Sep 2012 07:51 PM 
I ran one of the new C -19s on Stan's railway last weekend. 
It's a nice looking locomotive and smooth running.



No pics ???


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 23 Sep 2012 09:47 PM 
Getting back to the doors, I was climbing around the cab of #346 today (technically, the deckplate, as the cab doors were locked). Both doors hinged on the outside. Take that for what it's worth--an example of one specific locomotive cab that may or may not be indicative of practice on other locos. 

Later, 

K 

Kevin 
For what it's worth the 278 was just cosmetically restored. While not a C-19, the door hinge placement looks to be the same as the bachmann model.

Stan


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 23 Sep 2012 09:47 PM 
Getting back to the doors, I was climbing around the cab of #346 today (technically, the deckplate, as the cab doors were locked). Both doors hinged on the outside. Take that for what it's worth--an example of one specific locomotive cab that may or may not be indicative of practice on other locos. 

Later, 

K 

346 was on lease to the C&S on 25 Jul 1936 and was wrecked on Kenosha Pass after a runaway. If you've driven over Kenosha Pass, it's not hard to visualize why it happened. She was rebuilt by the CB&Q, with the cab being replaced. In addition, the domes, the pilot beam - and the tender - were rebuilt. She also had the headlight replaced with a Pyle.

For that reason, the tender and cab don't match any of the other C-19's - and is the explanation for the long tender body as opposed to the short ones on the other locomotives.

346 was the only C-19 with the long tender.

Kudos to Bachmann for the attention to detail on the locomotives, they just didn't spend a lot of time explaining it...

As far as doors, I'm pretty sure they were replaced once or twice during their lifetimes, and the D&RGW had no problem with modifications to their locomotives to make them more efficient or more crew-friendly. Especially if they had to reattach the doors...

Just as an aside, RGS #40 spent 10 years of her life as a standard gauge locomotive, before being rebuilt to narrow gauge in 1898. Kind of hard to visualize a C-19 riding on standard gauge tracks, but, I guess, it's only about 10" wider on each side...

Kudos for Baldwin for building locomotives that have lasted over 130 years!

Robert


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

If the CRRM has 346's tender now painted, it won't be very long before it is behind #346! They may be waiting until #318's cosmetic resoration is completed so that 318"s tender will go out at the same time or it could be that they simply wanted to wait until the fire bans expired... Either way, I'm looking forward to pictures of the #346 ready to run with _her _tender!


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## rgs41 (May 14, 2008)

Take it from someone who operates this class of locomotive year round Bachmann did the cab doors right. As per the D&RGW cab drawings both rear cab doors open toward the left side of the locomotive. A was pointed out this made the firemans door out of his way of the firebox doors, and the engineers door left an open area that did not block his stepping down off the tender from his side. The rear cab door do NOT have a rod on a sliding track with a set screw. That is on the FRONT doors ONLY. The rear doors have a rod with a simple hook at the end and when the door was all the way open you put the hooked end into an eyelet on the cab to hold it open. 

Today 346 has the correct domes she was built with, but the cab is the one built by the C&S after her wreck. The steel cab was left on by the museum to honer her C&S history. The domes tops were added by Bob Richardson after the 345 was wrecked for the movie Rio Grande, he thought they looked better than the miss matched tops the C&S put on. The C&S cab is no where near what the D&RGW would have built. All the cab doors open the wrong way, the front open away from the boiler instead on inward, and both rear doors open away. Her current look is historically incorrect for any time frame she saw service on any rail road. Those dome tops would be correct if she had a wood cab, like Bachmann did. But they are not correct with the steel cab. 

Now at Knotts when the locos were overhauled in the 70s new steel cabs were fabricated. These would last longer than wood and be stronger, they were built to the same dimensions as the wood cabs. They made a some design changes but I wont list all. The topical one is the rear cab doors. We burn oil so we don't open the firebox doors allot. The rear doors now swing inward on 340 and 41 so they are both out of the way of the engineer and fireman. 

Bachmann has made a pretty accurate model with some exception.(Nobody's perfect) If we buy enough of them maybe we can big them for a second run with different numbers and tender. 

P.S. The RGS 40 and movie version 345 are correct with the box headlight. RGS 40 also had one fluted dome and one round so that is correct as well.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I was hoping for another run of K-27's with different numbers and *gasp* inside valve gear! 

Robert


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi 

Here in the UK we have a good retailer of railway locos and rolling stock

He also has the new C19's with some good photos of them!

Here is a link to the location on their website

http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1...ale_USA_Large_Scale_Steam_Locos/prodlist.aspx

All four are there with multiple photos of each.

Yours Peter.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

He also has the new C19's with some good photos of them 
Good photos indeed. 

I think we decided that "long" tender means "long water tank tender" ? The frame is the same I think ?


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Pete,

From David Fletcher's PDF, the tender frame on that is over a foot long by just a bit, with 8 feet between the center lines of the inner wheels on the trucks, and from the rivet pattern it is a water leg tender; the air tank sits on the extreme rear of the tender so the tender tank itself is268 mm long - its certainly a big 'un!, and longer than the Accucraft C16's. The photos are shorter than that so I think it is a rebuilt tender.

However the first standard gauge 2 8 0's (#414 - 16) had a C16 size tender by the look of it (from a Baldwin official photo perhaps the #400 series being designated as' helpers' had big tenders to keep them working without needing a refill of water or coal.

It also has a less deep cab with 3 windows, and the footboards are in a low position, naturally the PDF has the short smokebox and a normal (spark consuming, not shotgun style) stack - that came in with the longer smokebox.

It is of the 'as delivered' locos before they gained all black paint, and large numbers on the tenders.

Yours Peter


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## rgs41 (May 14, 2008)

Nice pictures. To bad the RGS 40 and movie 345 are not there. 

rdamurphy I agree more k-27s and some inside valve gear versions would be cool. 

Im hoping for more c-19s down the road. Im waiting for RGS 40 myself this round, but would also like a D&RGW 340. 
I have an Accucraft RGS 41 and I am so far into modifying it I would not buy another if Bachmann made one. But I think they should do a RGS 41.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

From David Fletcher's PDF, the tender frame on that is over a foot long by just a bit, with 8 feet between the center lines of the inner wheels on the trucks, and from the rivet pattern it is a water leg tender; the air tank sits on the extreme rear of the tender so the tender tank itself is268 mm long - its certainly a big 'un!, and longer than the Accucraft C16's. The photos are shorter than that so I think it is a rebuilt tender. 

Peter, 

I have David's PDF of the 1880 and 1881 C-19s (is that the one you mean?) My C-19 (accucraft) already has a C-16 tender, much like the one David drew for the 'olive green' loco for the EBT. 

My question was about the Bachmann C-19 model tenders. They all look the same length over the frame - just the water tank looks shorter. But is it - or is the actual tender frame short? Here's a composite from the hattons pics, which aren't taken from exactly the same angle.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Gary,

I asked just that question on the 'Bachmann Trains' site, the reply is that they can run on 4 foot radius curves.


The reply is the smaller figure you mention (8 foot diameter).

My Accucraft C16 (the DSP&PRR version) goes round my 4.5 feet curves OK and the C19 has an extra 3" longer wheelbase (between drivers 1 & 2) and thus a larger boiler. It also has the center drivers blind, as the originals.

I do not have a C19, but am interested in one - there is a much larger hurdle involved before that - SWMBO! and her approval.

It will need some rebuilding for me, but that's my choice - backdating it to ' as delivered'

Yours Peter


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Pete,

The tender itself, from the photos, looks to be longer on 346 thant 345; that could well be a trick of the camera. 

#346's tender has slightly higher 'greedy boards' and also is a longer body from the photos, however the tender chassis (frames) seem to be the same - however the top tender is slightly twisted 'vis a vis' #345!

The only way is to have them side by side with a tape to sort it out I think.

If I want a longer tender - I will have to build it and have new decals: which also applies to the loco and a new cab will also be needed.

Decisions, decisions!

Yours Peter.


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## rgs41 (May 14, 2008)

Hard to tell from the pics, but in the real world 345 had a short tender tank than the others. There was a large deck at the back of the frame to stand on. 

When it comes to tender tanks there is no one tank specific to any C class. IE c-16 tender or c-19 tender. Unless your modeling 1880-1882. The railroads swapped tenders all the time, sometimes because they wanted a tender with a larger water or coal capacity. They were not always specific to one loco. Also during the later years as these locos represent, there where two basic types flared side(as Bachmann has done) and straight side. And in each versiom there were different sizes and capacities. Some has narrower coal bunkers allowing for more water capacity. The railroads also built, or rebuilt/modified the tanks as needed. 

340,345 and c-18 318 have all swapped tenders. 340s tender went to 345, and 345s went to 340. In the 50s 318 took 340s tender because it held more water. 340 today still has 318s old tank. 

346 has a flared tank, RGS 41 has a straight side tank. 41s was probably built by the railroad in the teens.


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