# PSX-AR control of a Proline Switch Machine



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thought I'd split this topic out from my "build log," since it seems like a difficult DCC-related nut to crack.

Background: 
- Using the PSX-AR to control phase of a reverse loop (and they work perfectly)
- Using the Train-Li ProDrive switch machine in DC mode on the loop's entry-exit switch (they test out perfectly, using a 12 VDC power supply)
- The whole object is to let the train go back and forth between 2 loops, and have everything behave automatically 
- The PSX-AR has a polarized 2-wire output, ~17 VDC
- The ProDrive needs that same polarized input, 12-24 VDC
- I have all this stuff, almost all wired, for 3 different loops
- But, no workie.

So I've been exchanging emails this afternoon with Larry Maier at DCC Specialties. What a guy; he designed the PSX-AR, and took the trouble to answer all my questions. Thanks Larry!!

Results:
- The PSX-AR's "Tortoise" outputs only do 25mA max, and the ProDrive needs more.
- But, a relay can be used, with a bridge rectifier to come up with the needed juice.
- Larry confirmed that I could make a sub-board and fit it inside my PSX-AR jbox (the Radio Shack item they recommend) 
- Larry took the trouble to look up an example relay, Digikey PB1057TR-ND

That sounds like I can keep all my existing products and wiring.









My new objectives are...
- To make sure I understand the relay's logic here, and pick the right one
- To pick the right bridge rectifier and other stuff
- To design the board, with easy wiring connections in mind 
- And get all the bits and pieces on order, while I'm here in a hotel on work travel...









I'll try to post a schematic, at least as far as I can understand it at this point.

Thanks in advance for any pointers,
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's my shot at the schematic:









I'm not a sparkie, and I barely know what I'm trying to do here. So if someone could help me correct this, and pick the components, I'd be very grateful.

CJ


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

D1 is a rectifier diode. You can use any common 4000 series (4001 - 4005) rectifier diode.



1 amp rectifier diode

BR1 is a bridge rectifier. A 1 or 1.5 amp piece rated at a minimum of 50 volts or more would be fine. They can be round or square.



1.5 amp bridge rectifier

K1 is the relay. You can also get it at the same place and save some money. A 740 ohm coil should draw 16 milliamps so you are well within your 25 milliamp spec.



12 volt, 2-amp, dpdt relay


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Todd, Dude! Thanks for lending me a hand again! 

I'd just ordered the rectifier and relay before you posted (they looked similar to your description), but not the diodes. Thanks for that spec, and here's what I'm ordering: 

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-...id=1374021265&sr=8-1&keywords=rectifier+diode 

Did you agree though, with the schematic? It was my creation, and I'm trying to get it right. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ugh, I just figured out how to plug a pic onto my sidebars, and it don't look pretty...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are missing a diode across the relay coil. You will want to do that just for extra protection, called a snubber diode by some. 

It keeps the back emf from the relay (just trust me) from damaging the PSX-AR circuit. (The PSX-ar might already be protected, but cheap insurance) 

The diode will go across the relay coil, right at the relay. The cathode will be on pin 1. 

You might want to put a small fuse in series with the output of your bridge rectifier, since you could get 10 amps into your circuit if there was a short. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, Brutha, thanks... 
This is all Greek to me, but I'll try to absorb what you said, and try to document it on the next schematic... 
Please bear with me...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No problem, it's taken most of us years to get this stuff, you are coming along nicely! 

Keep it up! 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

It looks correct. My only concern would be that you appear to be supplying about 17 volts to the relay and on a 12 volt relay, this would reduce its life. If you truely are supplying 17+ volts to the relay, you may want to think about trying a 24 volt relay or adding a few diodes in series with the coil to knock down a few volts. You would need 7 diodes in series to provide 12 volts from 17 volts.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 16 Jul 2013 06:46 PM 
Todd, Dude! Thanks for lending me a hand again! 

I'd just ordered the rectifier and relay before you posted (they looked similar to your description), but not the diodes. Thanks for that spec, and here's what I'm ordering: 

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-...id=1374021265&sr=8-1&keywords=rectifier+diode 

Did you agree though, with the schematic? It was my creation, and I'm trying to get it right. 

===>Cliffy 



No no. 10 amp 1,000 volt diodes are WAYYYYY OVERKILL for what you need.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

OK, I drew the D2 across the inputs to the relay coil, and then got really sleepy.... 
Seriously, I was about to post the new schematic... 
...maybe tomorrow... 
C


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the relays with the built in diode. 
If you use a relay and it fails to work, reverse the coil leads as the diode is in series with the relay, not across it like the snubber. 

And I like 100 volt ratings or more on all diodes as 50 volts is marginal with 18 volts A/C. Storage on a cap is 18 volts times 1.414, plus the reverse really comes to another 18 volts times 1.414 for the peak inverse voltage. This is really 36 times 1.414 that the diode sees as the peak. 50.9 is the total, but one should subtract the diode drop. 
Too close for me!!! And if I use 20 volts A/C or more, I am over the 50 volt piv (PeakInverseVoltage) rating.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 16 Jul 2013 08:56 PM 
It looks correct. My only concern would be that you appear to be supplying about 17 volts to the relay and on a 12 volt relay, this would reduce its life. If you truely are supplying 17+ volts to the relay, you may want to think about trying a 24 volt relay or adding a few diodes in series with the coil to knock down a few volts. You would need 7 diodes in series to provide 12 volts from 17 volts.



Thanks Todd.

And I was wondering about that coil voltage as well. The PSX-AR should only be putting out 12V, but I'm consistently measuring almost 18V. 

Is there a more direct way to regulate the voltage down? 

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 16 Jul 2013 08:59 PM 


No no. 10 amp 1,000 volt diodes are WAYYYYY OVERKILL for what you need. Well, they're on order, and they're cheap, but I just found out that I won't get them till mid-August. So I ordered some 1A ones.

Thanks,
Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, why was a 24v relay not used in the first place? 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Revised schematic:









Mainly I added the snubber diode and some terminal blocks. 

Everything's on order (I love Amazon Prime, with the free 2-day shipping!), including a breadboard kit, so hopefully I'll be able to test this out quickly on Saturday.

Another thought. Per Larry's point, the J5 outputs seem to be switchable via a CV. So, maybe it's possible to re-introduce DCC functionality, that is, to select which loop route (CW vs. CCW) an incoming train takes. After that, the PSX-AR and this circuit should handle the flipping of the turnout when the train exits...

Thanks guys for all your help!!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Jul 2013 06:35 AM 
Just out of curiosity, why was a 24v relay not used in the first place? 

Greg Um... no good reason. Nice catch.
So I just ordered some. With the breadboard, it should be easy to swap during testing. 


CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's the parts list so far:


Diodes: 1A 1000V Diode 1N4007 DO-41
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Rectifier: Amico PCB 6A 600V Full Wave Single Phase Bridge Rectifiers RS606
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AUB987K...25410_item

Relay: NTE R40-11D2-24 2A 24VDC DPDT Security Relay PCB
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Terminals: Amico 5 Pcs 2 Pin 5.08mm Pitch PCB Mount Screw Terminal Block 10A
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Boards: Microtivity IM414 Double-sided Prototyping Board (4x6cm, Pack of 5)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 17 Jul 2013 07:54 AM 
Here's the parts list so far:


Diodes: 1A 1000V Diode 1N4007 DO-41
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Rectifier: Amico PCB 6A 600V Full Wave Single Phase Bridge Rectifiers RS606
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AUB987K...25410_item

Relay: NTE R40-11D2-24 2A 24VDC DPDT Security Relay PCB
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Terminals: Amico 5 Pcs 2 Pin 5.08mm Pitch PCB Mount Screw Terminal Block 10A
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1


Boards: Microtivity IM414 Double-sided Prototyping Board (4x6cm, Pack of 5)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1



Again the rectifier is much bigger (both in size and rating) than you need, but will certainly work. (You're shooting mosquitos with a shotgun.)

The relay may be "iffy" but if it works will last a long time. 
*
Coil* • Nominal voltage: 24 VDC • Contact arr.: DPDT • Coil res.: 2880 ohms • Nominal power: 200mW • Max. contact current: 2A • Diag. No.: D34 • Pick-up voltage: 70% of rated voltage • Max. allowable voltage: 200% of rated voltage. 

24 volts x 0.7 = 16.8 volts to reliably trigger the relay.

BTW, if the 12 volt relay can take 200% of rated voltage (24 volts), or even 150% of rated voltage (18 volts), it will be fine.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 17 Jul 2013 05:40 AM 
Posted By toddalin on 16 Jul 2013 08:56 PM 
It looks correct. My only concern would be that you appear to be supplying about 17 volts to the relay and on a 12 volt relay, this would reduce its life. If you truely are supplying 17+ volts to the relay, you may want to think about trying a 24 volt relay or adding a few diodes in series with the coil to knock down a few volts. You would need 7 diodes in series to provide 12 volts from 17 volts.



Thanks Todd.

And I was wondering about that coil voltage as well. The PSX-AR should only be putting out 12V, but I'm consistently measuring almost 18V. 

Is there a more direct way to regulate the voltage down? 

CJ 

You can use a voltage regulator (looks like a transistor) but will need a couple capacitors to make it work right. Ultimately, in this case it is cheaper and easier to use the series of diodes. You will end up with several extras anyways.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all that Todd. Good catch on the coil specs, you nailed it. 
I've got both the 12v and 24v relays coming, so I'll test both. 


I'm sort of concerned about the mA required, the PSX-AR only puts out 25. Didn't see a rating for that on either relay.

Let's see, your spec shows 200mW, and I've got 17v min. Does this equation work: 200mW / 17v = 11.8mA ? If so, the 24vdc relay is fine. 
For the 12v relay, the only specs I could find are sketchy: http://www.bikudo.com/buy/details/5...2v_sh.html
Might be in trouble with the coil power there, not sure. 


Understood about the overkill. I'm mainly going with products I can get on Amazon Prime, because of the free shipping. With these multi-part projects, shipping always bit me hard in the past. Hence the non-optimal component selection...









Over the weekend, I'll report on how all this goes. 

Thanks again, 
===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Todd, this is DCC, not sine wave AC.... you do not do the 0.7 sine conversion, rectified DCC is effectively the same as the peak to peak. (It's a square wave). 

So the 12v relay is a bad idea... it will be getting at least 20-21 volts... 

The PSX-AR is putting out track voltage... AND Cliffy apparently has not discovered (read my NCE pages) how to raise the voltage to the max, which he will need... which will be the aforementioned 20-21 volts. Mine is 23.8, but my booster is modified. 

I'm with todd on the overkill on the FW bridge and 1000v diode... 100v diode and 1 amp bridge would be fine, and available from Radio Shack off the shelf. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. NTE is a well respected electronic component manufacturer, so wonder why it's "iffy"? Is it the PCB mount "leads"?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, 
A couple years ago, I read your tips, and upped the voltage. Thanks for that. 
The 17-18vdc was the measured output of J5 -- which is powering the relay coils. 


We have 2 Radio Shacks, both in mega malls. I hate malls. I suppose it's just me; but I'd rather move to Siberia and sit on an ice pick than go to the mall...








But, point taken.

Thanks, 
Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... so it must have a couple of "diode drops".... did you ever get a DCC voltmeter and see what your track is really at? 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Jul 2013 04:44 PM 
Hmm... so it must have a couple of "diode drops".... did you ever get a DCC voltmeter and see what your track is really at? 

Greg No; I didn't know there was one. So I just searched, and found these: 
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/172398.aspx
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/...Meters.htm

From your article (http://www.elmassian.com/trains/beginners-faqs/dcc-faqs), I see that you prefer the RRampmeter,
http://tonystrains.com/products/type_dcctesters.htm

Kinda pricey though. Is knowing the voltage important? And if so, which model works best with G? 

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get the rrampmeter from Tonys Trains. 

They also measure current, always a good thing to monitor. Can be used as DC voltmeter also, besides true RMS AC voltmeter. 

The rrampmeter is the best one I have used for our hobby... I have the one that will use a 9v battery to handle the lower voltages... I think I have the "best" one (most expensive ha ha) 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like you have the version IV. 
I'll have to hold off a little on that... I do love new tools though... 

So, if I did have it, and measured the track voltage, what would that do for me? Is it something you use often, maybe on loco's? Or to track down a bad track joint? Just guessing.

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, you measure the track voltage at the source... Then you attach it to the rails (comes with nice clip leads) and watch the voltage as a train goes by and see if you are getting voltage drop. 

When not checking or debugging power feeds, etc. leave it right at the command station and watch your current draw... you can usually see something going wrong before you burn up a motor or have a short, or abnormally high load. 

Remember the 10 amp NCE will run 10 amps all day... and will trip at 20. If you have an internal short, or a motor going bad, a heads up can often avert a melt down. 

A voltmeter is probably your most fundamental electrical tool. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Jul 2013 05:21 PM 
So, you measure the track voltage at the source... Then you attach it to the rails (comes with nice clip leads) and watch the voltage as a train goes by and see if you are getting voltage drop. 

When not checking or debugging power feeds, etc. leave it right at the command station and watch your current draw... you can usually see something going wrong before you burn up a motor or have a short, or abnormally high load. 

Remember the 10 amp NCE will run 10 amps all day... and will trip at 20. If you have an internal short, or a motor going bad, a heads up can often avert a melt down. 

A voltmeter is probably your most fundamental electrical tool. 

Greg Tools... toooooooooooools... 

OK, you're talking me into it. But why didn't you go with the DIY meter add-on, or the pocket meter:
http://tonystrains.com/products/type_dcctesters.htm
Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 17 Jul 2013 02:22 PM 


I'm sort of concerned about the mA required, the PSX-AR only puts out 25. Didn't see a rating for that on either relay.


Over the weekend, I'll report on how all this goes. 

Thanks again, 
===>Cliffy 



Spec shows coil at 2,880 ohms. 24 volts /2,880 ohms x 1,000 ma/amp = 8.3 ma. 
If you buy from some place like Allelectronics you pay $7. The price differential is so great from someplace like Amazon or Digikey, you will easily make up any handling fees. And if you look at their site/catalog, you will find a wealth of stuff, at minimal prices, that you will wonder how you were ever able to live without.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Jul 2013 04:29 PM 

p.s. NTE is a well respected electronic component manufacturer, so wonder why it's "iffy"? Is it the PCB mount "leads"?


CliffyJ said he read about 17 volts. According to its specs, the relay is rated to operate at no less than 70% of 24 volts, or 16.8 volts. So it is "iffy" as to whether would reliably trigger at that voltage. If it does reliably trigger, it is way under-powered so will live a long life. I thought that was clear. This was no slam to the mfg.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gotcha... thanks.. 

I thought you were talking about the original 12v relay. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Getting all the goodies today... most are in hand already. 

Ugh, I see what you guys were talking about, with the overkill bridge rectifiers... they looked small in the photo... 
But, they were cheap and quick. And hopefully, they'll even work.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's what the "adapter board" looks like:











The bad news is that I have to send in two PSX-AR's for repair... pretty mad at myself about that... but Larry at DCCS was again very helpful. 

So the good news it that the new arrangement is working fine now. 



This is the 12vdc-coil relay, which is seeing ~18vdc input (orange wires) but, maybe they're rated over that? Todd, you'd mentioned that, but I think in reference to the 24v relay? Unfortunately, I can't find full specs on these Amico units, still looking... The make is Huike, P/N HK19F-DC 12V-SHG.

After a little more testing, here's the voltages:
- J5 output, no load: 18.6
- Ditto, with relay on: 13.1
- After D1 (at coils), relay on: 12.4

Does it sound like I need dropping diodes? 


BTW, yesterday I ended up braving the mall and getting some 4A rectifiers (smallest that RS had in stock). The ones I'd ordered should have been 6A, but they mis-shipped me 8A. I'm sending that to my aunt, to add to her flatiron collection. 

Next is to figure out how to mount the adapter, connecting its DCC input to that of the PSX-AR, and final packaging.

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 21 Jul 2013 09:24 AM 
Here's what the "adapter board" looks like:












After a little more testing, here's the voltages:
- J5 output, no load: 18.6
- Ditto, with relay on: 13.1
- After D1 (at coils), relay on: 12.4

Does it sound like I need dropping diodes? 



===>Cliffy 


You could put another one in series, but you don't need it.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Todd, it sounds like you think the coil is good for overvoltage, like that other unit. 

What would you do? 

Thanks buddy, 
Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The "overvoltage" is not significant. It would depend on the level of effort to add it as to whether I would do it, but if it was simple, I probably would.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just another diode or 2 in series. 

(I say 2 if you later use a higher voltage booster setting) 

I would not worry, although, adding 2 diodes would lower the current drawn, but again, this is probably negligibleal 

Sounds like you are going to town. 

Not to rub salt in the wounds, but I am surmising you crosswired something and nuked the switch machine outputs on the other units? I've never had quality problems with the PSX-AR. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm tempted to add a directional indication LED, like Ron B. did, to his ProDrives:
http://www.mylargescale.com/communi...fault.aspx

However, since I'm controlling these "loop control" ProDrives with DC (vs DCC), things are different. The ProDrive's lamp connections remain at the same voltage & polarity (~20.1), regardless of the throw. It's not even on/off. But the incoming DC (20.7) from the adapter board does alternate, and remains on. So it would be easy to tap off of that.

Be nice to have bi-color, such as this Radio Shack unit: http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Id=2062549

Not positive if it will fit in the same socket assembly as Ron's, but it seems like it might:
http://vcclite.com/panel_mount_indicators.php

With only two leads, I wasn't quite sure how the resistors would be tied in (Greg, I did check your site first







). Ran across this article:
http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.u...mp;t=31659

Which had this diagram:














Found some resistor calculators, I liked this one: http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz

For a 20.7v input, 2.1 voltage drop (RS says 2.8v nominal, but 2.1v as typical), 30 mA LED, I get 680 ohm (blue grey brown), 2W.

The socket assembly with the built-in resistor is here:

http://vcclite.com/_pdf/CNX-410-5mm...rawing.pdf 

Unfortunately, it doesn't list 680 ohms (though it does have 560). But since the same (2-lead) assembly as for the single-color, I'm thinking to use the same one as Ron, w/ 1.2k ohms. 
No, that's not right, because Ron used a different LED... 

Oh well, I just though I'd share what I've dug up so far. Not sure if I'll bite this off now, I've got a long ways to go to solve the main issues here.

===Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Only one led is on at a time, so you need 680 ohms... 

power shoudl be be 0.6 watts, so a 1 watt resistor should be fine. 

Check the led, if you get a 20 ma one you will make less heat... I would not want that heat inside a sealed box... 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, good confirmations. 

I was thinking of mounting this on the ProDrive, using Ron's method, only with bi-color indication and operating off the incoming voltage (vs. the built-in lamp connector). 

But, after further looking, now comes the question of intensity. Brightest I could find is the red/green from Mouser: 
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMtmwHDZQCdlqYS3ynGhvbnbJtyC2B4sazo= 

That's 1/3 as bright as the one Ron used, so if I can't see it in daylight, I guess I'll cave in and go with the uni-color ones. 

This is my first foray into LED componentry, so thanks for the articles on your site Greg. 

C


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, you are doing great Cliffy, so don't take our comments as criticism... 

Nice to see the progress and things working for you. 

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 21 Jul 2013 02:17 PM 
Thanks Greg, good confirmations. 

I was thinking of mounting this on the ProDrive, using Ron's method, only with bi-color indication and operating off the incoming voltage (vs. the built-in lamp connector). 

But, after further looking, now comes the question of intensity. Brightest I could find is the red/green from Mouser: 
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMtmwHDZQCdlqYS3ynGhvbnbJtyC2B4sazo= 

That's 1/3 as bright as the one Ron used, so if I can't see it in daylight, I guess I'll cave in and go with the uni-color ones. 

This is my first foray into LED componentry, so thanks for the articles on your site Greg. 

C 
Cliff I found that even with the 4000 lumen LEDs they can be a little tough to see in bright sunlight from a distance.
I think they would stand out much better if the lens protruded more from the lid, thus increasing the viewing angle.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Jul 2013 01:06 PM 
Just another diode or 2 in series. 

(I say 2 if you later use a higher voltage booster setting) 

I would not worry, although, adding 2 diodes would lower the current drawn, but again, this is probably negligibleal 

Sounds like you are going to town. 

Not to rub salt in the wounds, but I am surmising you crosswired something and nuked the switch machine outputs on the other units? I've never had quality problems with the PSX-AR. 

Greg The first unit's smoking came from my going too fast in testing the 24v relay. It wouldn't work, but I found it had a different pinout for the contacts. I messed up in the breadboard reconfig... transposed a couple jumpers, and that's all she wrote.


The second unit's breadboarding worked perfectly, and repeatedly. So I broke it down, and proceeded to the real boards. An hour later, when I got to testing the coil portion (only) of the real board, no workie: the volts out of J5 were all messed up. 

After confabbing w/ Larry, he said lose the snubber diode, and send the things in for repair, which I did today. Still a mystery on that one though. 

So I agree, it's not DCCS, it's just me toasting my usual 2/3...









Thanks for the encouragement,
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 21 Jul 2013 04:19 PM 
Posted By CliffyJ on 21 Jul 2013 02:17 PM 
Thanks Greg, good confirmations. 

I was thinking of mounting this on the ProDrive, using Ron's method, only with bi-color indication and operating off the incoming voltage (vs. the built-in lamp connector). 

But, after further looking, now comes the question of intensity. Brightest I could find is the red/green from Mouser: 
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMtmwHDZQCdlqYS3ynGhvbnbJtyC2B4sazo= 

That's 1/3 as bright as the one Ron used, so if I can't see it in daylight, I guess I'll cave in and go with the uni-color ones. 

This is my first foray into LED componentry, so thanks for the articles on your site Greg. 

C 
Cliff I found that even with the 4000 lumen LEDs they can be a little tough to see in bright sunlight from a distance.
I think they would stand out much better if the lens protruded more from the lid, thus increasing the viewing angle.

Ron

Great data point, Ron. Sounds like those brighter ones are the minimum. In the same series you reported on, I noticed that have both lenses and diodes in various colors (white, red, green, blue). Also, I think I saw that you got the red LED + red lens. In the daylight, would white LED's and red lenses sufficed? Or would it have been a washed out pink? 

The reason I ask is that I'm considering using more than one color, and it would be nice to stock up on a variety of one component (vs. a pair of components) to get to a different color, if only that was necessary.

Of course, the LED's are really cheap, so I'll get a variety of samples in my Mouser order, just to play around with the combinations. But I was curious about your findings.

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ron / Greg, thanks for all your additional insights over on my "reverse loop rant" post (http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx).

If you don't mind, I'll respond more specifically here. 

Since I'm going to be waiting for my repaired PSX-AR's to come back, and have a Mouser order going, I was hoping to find a watertight (IP-67 or 66 even), clear-lid alternative to the RS boxes (which I've kinda hosed up, if I go with Greg's routed corner post idea). I like the thought of jumper access, more cable space, LED viewing, a removable back panel, not having to re-do the silicone, etc. But so far, nothing with everything. 

So it looks like I'll stick with the RS box.... especially since my two (and only two) trackside buildings barely allow them to fit inside. 

Still, these sure look nice... a little pricey at ~$17 per, but on the other hand...
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/RP1185.pdf (not quite enough room...)
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/RP1385.pdf (little too big...) 


Cliff 

Later edit: actually, if you cut off a very small rectangle from each corner of the PSX-AR, it *would* fit within the RP1185. More $ than the RS box, but you get a clear cover, an EPDM oring seal, SS fasteners, and a 1/2" more inside length. Thinking, thinking... 

Later... 
OK, couldn't help it, I bought 'em. Turns out they were much cheaper ($12.31) at Mouser, about $7 more than the RS box.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

About the heat sinks, my reverse loops are too short for running more than 1 train I think. The actual segments controlled by the PSX-AR are only 22' avg length. I may try to consist a double header some day, but that's about it. 
So, can I avoid heat sinks? (I'm having trouble finding them, Digikey has a 500 pc min, still looking on Mouser).
C

Later edit: Mouser has 'em, but comparing with your article Greg, it looks like 4 x $8.65 x 3 boards is too steep for that one-time double header...








http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GT2A%3d%3d


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

About the adapter board mounting, I can't see any clean drillable footprint for my combination, using threaded stand-offs (into the PSX-AR). So is there any precedent for some sort of double-sided adhesive foam to stick the boards together?

http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Produc...98&sr=8-7&keywords=double-sided+foam+adhesive 

Those are quite thin though. It would be nice to have something thicker like weatherstrip to conform better to each board's wiring. Not sure how long it would hold up though.


Hey, maybe adhesive velcro? Yeah, that's the ticket... and here's a hi temp version:
http://www.amazon.com/Coil-Wrap-71-...erature%22


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Jul 2013 07:51 PM 
You are missing a diode across the relay coil. You will want to do that just for extra protection, called a snubber diode by some. 

It keeps the back emf from the relay (just trust me) from damaging the PSX-AR circuit. (The PSX-ar might already be protected, but cheap insurance) 

The diode will go across the relay coil, right at the relay. The cathode will be on pin 1. 

You might want to put a small fuse in series with the output of your bridge rectifier, since you could get 10 amps into your circuit if there was a short. 

Regards, Greg 
BTW, I should point out that my earlier schematic showed the snubber diode reversed. Not that it matters now, but during the breadboard phase I caught my mistake and wired it the opposite (correct) way (with cathode on relay pin 1). 

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe the manual states if you want to run over 9 amps you need the heat sinks. 

I found that I could sometimes trip the 9 amp limit... it was a 10 amp train.... 7 in the lighted cars and 3 in the locos... (remember to factor in lighted cars) 

So I did go with the heat sinks... by the way, what current limit will you try first? If you program it with CVs you need to use the on board jumper. 

Larry said lose the snubber diode... so there must be one in the circuitry already... pretty much had to if they could run coil type switch motors. 

Try not to cover all the board with tape, the transistors will make heat, and since you don't have heat sinks, the board needs to radiate heat also. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the further tips Greg. 
I still can't find that one you used, and it's $$... 
So how about this one, cut down? 
http://www.amazon.com/Gino-20mm-Alu.../B0050MR8CG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374599623


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Cliff, 
The white led / red lens did look pink, and the red led / clear lens was harder to see at an angle thus the red red. But like you said very cheap so go crazy.

Tonys trains has one piece heat sinks that cover all 8, for like $6 each.
Very nice with large fins. Just call them and tell them you need 3 heat sinks for your 3 PSX-ARs.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 23 Jul 2013 01:24 PM 
Cliff, 
The white led / red lens did look pink, and the red led / clear lens was harder to see at an angle thus the red red. But like you said very cheap so go crazy.

Tonys trains has one piece heat sinks that cover all 8, for like $6 each.
Very nice with large fins. Just call them and tell them you need 3 heat sinks for your 3 PSX-ARs.

Ron 
Thanks Ron, and will do!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I just put in a message to Tony, thanks again Ron. 

Though this is only in the planning stages, here's the color scheme I'm considering. 
- Green: mainline 
- Red: dead end spur 
- Something else (blue, yellow, orange): alternate main line (no danger if taken), as with the less preferred fork of a return loop or less preferred yard siding for the mainline. 

I have three kinds of switch machines going on: 
- Reverse loop (dc powered) 
- DCC powered 
- Manual 

I've described the wiring for the rev loop ones; and the SPDT microswitch (with appropriate diodes) from Train Li seems to work with all other cases. 

Again, only in the planning phases... 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A little progress today, in that the heat sinks are on order from Tony's, and the adhesive pads.
Greg, I couldn't find what you recommended, so I bought these:
http://www.amazon.com/Gino-202mm-Si...atsink+pad

Having come this far, I went ahead and got some (super-cheap) cable glands:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...os_product
They'll need additional silicone to seal, but my main thing was reliable gripping of the #14 or #16 zip cord. 

Here's an updated schematic:










Thanks again guys for all your help,
===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks good Cliffy, that material will most likely be fine, the main differences is how strong the adhesive is. 

Diagram look good! 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, I much appreciate the vote of confidence! 

Just like last week, I'm using work travel time to arrange quick shipping for whatever is needed for the next step. Last thing that I can think of is how to mount the PSX-AR in the new (ABS plastic) box. I'd like to elevate it within the cavity, leaving room below for wires and the adapter board. So I'm thinking of cutting some mounting angles from a PVC outlet box on hand, and attaching them to the interior sides of the box. With the right solvent, ABS and PVC are fine together. But we'll see. 


Back on the LED indication front, here's a (VERY) preliminary diagram on the approaches I'm considering.









. 

Long ways off though from anything real, so any input is very appreciated! 


Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Jul 2013 08:55 PM 
I believe the manual states if you want to run over 9 amps you need the heat sinks. 

I found that I could sometimes trip the 9 amp limit... it was a 10 amp train.... 7 in the lighted cars and 3 in the locos... (remember to factor in lighted cars) 

So I did go with the heat sinks... by the way, what current limit will you try first? If you program it with CVs you need to use the on board jumper. 

Regards, Greg
The bulbs in my passenger cars are:
Eiko 399, .04A @ 28v, 
http://1000bulbs.com/product/8322/I...4AodbgYA5w

Here's my calcs:
2 locos @ 2A (?) = 4A
6 cars x 6 bulbs x .04A = 1.44A

So maybe about 6A tops? Or am I misinterpreting the bulb specs?

Got the heat sinks anyway, might as well do it up right!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not familiar with your cars, how many bulbs, in series or not, etc. 

Easiest way to do it is put one on 22 volts DC and see how much current it draws with your handy voltmeter. 

I have USAT passenger cars, and they come with bulbs... they draw between .7 and 1.5 amps EACH... so in a 10 car train, the cars can draw more than the locos!!! 

Best to measure actual, light bulbs are nonlinear, so the current they draw is VERY voltage dependent. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Jul 2013 10:33 AM 
I'm not familiar with your cars, how many bulbs, in series or not, etc. 

Easiest way to do it is put one on 22 volts DC and see how much current it draws with your handy voltmeter. 

I have USAT passenger cars, and they come with bulbs... they draw between .7 and 1.5 amps EACH... so in a 10 car train, the cars can draw more than the locos!!! 

Best to measure actual, light bulbs are nonlinear, so the current they draw is VERY voltage dependent. 

Regards, Greg Wow Greg, that's an order of magnitude from what I think my worst case will be, for my V&T theme. 

But maybe I'm misunderstanding the equations. I'll paraphrase myself:

The bulbs in my passenger cars are: Eiko 399, .04A @ 28v
6 cars x 6 bulbs (per car) x .04A = 1.44A (total for ALL lighted cars)

I don't know if they're wired in series or parallel, only what each bulb spec says. You're absolutely right though, in measuring the stuff. 

But like I said, the heat sinks are going in regardless, and I'm glad. 


These are unmodified cars though, and the bulbs are incandescent. I suppose I need to modify their circuit, but I've forgotten what I've read or been told on that... But maybe that's a different thread.

More importantly, I just gotta get these three loops going, they're the heart of my system. The controlling of those loops (electrically and mechanically) is therefore, to me, worth the extra time and expense to get it right. Once more, I'm in a hotel room trying to arrange the bits and pieces for my next attempt... and hopefully I'll cook less expensive things!!

So thanks Greg, Ron, Todd, and everyone, for your continued help. 

===>Cliffy

PS: you know, it really sucks when this software forces a continually-changing font size. I try to correct it, but no matter what, it's all nice and goofy and varied on the final post.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

For the record, I'm considering using these kinds of jacks for the wires to the ProDrive: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121000224576 

C


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They look like overkill in terms of current capability, and hard to connect wire to, you have "solder pots" at the end. 

Better to find a connector that has a good mechanical connection first... (also blue won't be UV resistant)... 

What about the simple 2 pin "JST style" connectors? 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I was just looking into the JST style connectors, they look good Greg. I wish I'd ordered some earlier! Mainly I've seen the ones w/ wires already installed, I'll have to extend.

I just got that heat sink pad... and it doesn't seem to stick at all! So I'll try some of that Arctic Silver stuff next and see what happens.

The sonalerts came in too. 
The boxes also came in, here's what they look like:










Like I mentioned earlier, I'll have to trim away a small bit from each corner of the board:










===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's how I ended up mounting the main boards.

The stand-offs are 1/4" od x .17" id icemaker tube, w/ ss #10 x .5" sheet metal screws.



















If I'd been more patient, I'd have made or ordered standoffs that accept #6 or #8 screws. But I could only get this combination quickly. So in addition to the corner notches, I had to open up the board's mounting holes. 



















The idea was to leave plenty of wire room below, so that's why the board is perched so high.

More tomorrow...

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Couple notes on the boxes, before I forget. 

The seal stock isn't an o-ring, but EPDM cord. You have to trim and push it in. The Rose & Bopla boxes have a true o-ring. 
The cord isn't as smooth as an o-ring, so I was curious on its sealing efficiency. So I held the closed box under a foot of water for over a minute. It did fine, not a drop inside. 
The corner screws are SS. And once you put them in the lid, they're held captive which is nice. 

The lid is too tall, but whatever. 

I should have installed an LED to indicate when the relay is powered. I'm a little concerned that it will be left on all the time and burn up quicker. It only needs to be energized for 2 or 3 seconds (which the switch is thrown), so maybe I should have put in a timer... and a socket for swapping the relay out.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

More wiring and mounting work today, but I can't complete much because I'm waiting on several small products (and the other two PSX-AR's being repaired. 

Yesterday I did put in the extra voltage-dropping diodes. When I measured the voltage under load though, I was surprised to see how much the supply voltage went down. Specifically,

Output from PSX-AR J5, no load: ~18.1
With relay energized:
Output from PSX-AR J5: 13.3
Post D1 12.8
Post D2 12.1
Post D3 (at relay coil) 11.4


Anyway, it seems to work fine at least!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This is funny...

I needed at least 2 680ohm 1w resistors:
$3.20 + $6.50 shipping from Radio Shack...
$8, free shipping from Amico, for two HUNDRED (!).


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 29 Jul 2013 01:53 PM 
This is funny...

I needed at least 2 680ohm 1w resistors:
$3.20 + $6.50 shipping from Radio Shack...
$8, free shipping from Amico, for two HUNDRED (!). 













You need to shop in the right places. Allelectronics has 680 ohm, 3-watt resistors for 3/$1. Lower wattages are cheaper, but I didn't see any 1 watt off-hand.

You pay a $7 handling charge _regardless of size of the order_ so get a bunch of stuff and save a bunch of $$$.

3-watt, 680 ohms.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 29 Jul 2013 03:48 PM 
Posted By CliffyJ on 29 Jul 2013 01:53 PM 
This is funny...

I needed at least 2 680ohm 1w resistors:
$3.20 + $6.50 shipping from Radio Shack...
$8, free shipping from Amico, for two HUNDRED (!). 













You need to shop in the right places. Allelectronics has 680 ohm, 3-watt resistors for 3/$1. Lower wattages are cheaper, but I didn't see any 1 watt off-hand.

You pay a $7 handling charge _regardless of size of the order_ so get a bunch of stuff and save a bunch of $$$.

3-watt, 680 ohms. 
Todd, my Brutha, I did.
$8 / 200 = 4 pennies each, free shipping. I got those.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, where did you find 1 watt resistors so cheap? That price looks like a 1/4 watt price. 

Link please, I want some! 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Jul 2013 04:31 PM 
Interesting, where did you find 1 watt resistors so cheap? That price looks like a 1/4 watt price. 

Link please, I want some! 

Greg 2 watt! (better not be a typo... but you can read the color bands, I can't).
And there's gift-wrapping available.









http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1

What do you think about my boxes? 

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great! very good prices. 

The clear box is great, weatherproof and you can see the LEDs and plenty of room. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Cool, Greg! 
That kinda explains why I first gravitated to the 12v relays (vs 24), because they were only $1.06 each. So far, so good, but I wish I'd soldered in a socket now... oh well, there's always V2.0, I suppose!

Hey guys, check out my model on the "switch indication product idea" thread. Just messing around at this point, and my default is to either not worry about indication at all, or just try to copy Ron. Still, it's fun exploring an idea. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just an update. I'm still waiting on my replacement PSX-AR's, but still making small bits of progress elsewhere.

Here's the almost-complete box #1 (of three):










A few comments.

The jacks are those "dean's plugs". The gland is a PG-9 (about $.57 ea), and wires will be sealed within it with silicone. 

The harness is permanently attached to the box, but the boards are easily freed via the screw terminal blocks.










Mounting the adapter board isn't pretty. I tried a number of approaches, and ended up with a piece of rubber to ensure isolation, some 3/8" thick weatherstrip to conform to the rear of the board, and a wire tie. 

The standoff posts are now 1" plastic screw anchors. Much more rigid, and they accept #6 sheet metal screws (precluding the need to open up the corner mounting holes on the main boards).

1/8" drain holes are in each corner. 

When installing, I'd really like to know when the PSX-AR's are in "non-aligned" mode, that is, when D6 is blinking. Per the instructions, J5 pins 3 & 4 are for a "remote LED" which basically emulates D6. So I soldered in an LED (see first pic, near the orange wires), which is much more visible. If it seems to heat the box up, I'll snip it off later. But for installation, it will tell me when the new relay K1 coil is powered, which I want to minimize if I can. 

Cheers,

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks great Cliff! Nice heavy gauge wire. 

Is that a single heat sink, or 4 separate ones? 

What did you use between the heat sink and the transistors? 

By the way the "care package" came today, thanks! 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04 Aug 2013 02:17 PM 
Looks great Cliff! Nice heavy gauge wire. 

Is that a single heat sink, or 4 separate ones? 

What did you use between the heat sink and the transistors? 

By the way the "care package" came today, thanks! 

Greg Hey Greg, Gracias!

Yep, that's 14awg throughout, per your advice... Like JJ says, go big or go home







! Actually, I'd first done the mini-harnesses in the same outdoor lighting wire, but the insulation made it too inflexible. But since the exposed wires are all to be within a trackside structure, I redid them in automotive color-coded #14, and now they're nice and flexy.

That's the (single) heatsink from Tony's -- per Ron's hint. It's ~$6, and sawed off of a larger sink. They measure 42W x 60L x 24H mm, but you only need ~48L. You could use your own hacksaw and chop some longer ones in half, for about 1/2 the price: http://www.amazon.com/Gino-20mm-Alu...s=heatsink

The heatsink sheet stock I got didn't adhere at all, so I got that Arctic Monkey Poo, or whatever it's called. Haven't tried it yet, have you? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1

Glad you got the package, and thanks for all your help!!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ron, I've now got some of your LED housings with the built-in resistor. Pretty cool, lots of options. 
http://vcclite.com/_pdf/CNX-410-5mm-threaded-resistor-drawing.pdf 

So here's the math question... 
If their resistor is 1200 ohm, and you only need 680 (VCC's next lowest is 560, that won't work), is the lumen output going to be 680/1200 of what it could be? 

If so, maybe it would be better to use an external (680 ohm) resistor (?) 

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I got the 4 individual heat sinks, much easier to get good contact and minimize the thickness of the thermal pad, since each heat sink only needs to contact 2 transistors. 

If I had a single heat sink, I'd entertain the idea of sanding the tops down all flush (temporarily glue a piece of sandpaper to the heat sink and use it as a sanding block. 

Yes, the last thermal pad stock I got was not very sticky, I have to find a supplier for the good stuff all over again. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ah, so that's why you used separate sinks. Didn't realize that. 

I figure there's about 10 thou between the tops of my transistors (though the other 2 boards may differ; they're not here yet). I'm hoping the Arctic goop will fill those gaps... have you had bad luck with that sort of product?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The thinner the gap the better. For larger gaps, I found thermal tape that had metal mesh inside it. 

I'd try the sandpaper if using a single heat sink and then you can easily see how flat the 4 transistors are. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

So sanding away a little doesn't hurt the transistors?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, on page 6 of this thread, where I did the schematic update, do those diodes inside the prodrive even work? Now it looks to me like they'll short circuit... so maybe I should use the spdt microswitch (next diagram)? 
Also, do you know the answer to the resistor match question on page 8 ("If their resistor is 1200 ohm, and you only need 680, is the lumen output going to be 680/1200 of what it could be")?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sanding a little is fine, just plastic... if you have to sand a lot, then the board is warped or something wrong. Just sand until the tops all show... use like 240 grit or so. 

Page 6 is not a good way to identify a post, by the way, because each person can set the page "size" (really number of posts per page)... mine is maxed... I only have 2 pages here... 

Just tell me the date and time of the post to be sure. 

No, the light output of an LED is nonlinear, with voltage and current. Again, point me to the time and date post to be sure I'm reading the right post you are referring to. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Roger that Greg, will do. 
That diagram is dated 24 Jul 2013 02:05 PM (with a second one 2 posts later). 
The LED question is dated 05 Aug 2013 02:12 PM. 
Thanks for the quick reply!


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 05 Aug 2013 02:12 PM 
Ron, I've now got some of your LED housings with the built-in resistor. Pretty cool, lots of options. 
http://vcclite.com/_pdf/CNX-410-5mm-threaded-resistor-drawing.pdf 

So here's the math question... 
If their resistor is 1200 ohm, and you only need 680 (VCC's next lowest is 560, that won't work), is the lumen output going to be 680/1200 of what it could be? 

If so, maybe it would be better to use an external (680 ohm) resistor (?) 

===>Cliffy 

I used that resistor because that's what I was told was needed to get my 22.5 volts track power down to the High output LEDs needed voltage.I went through Mouser electronics and they worked out the resistor size needed. They have been working perfectly for over two years now, so I guess they were right.

To mount the best way heat sink without worry is with Artic silver heat sink adhesive, fills in any gaps and imperfections between the mating surfaces.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

resistors are chosen to control current for LEDs, not voltage. 30 milliamperes is what you will get out of a 680 ohm resistor, assuming 3.6 volt nominal drop on the LED. 

(notice the assumption of a WHITE LED !!) 

Yep, for a 30 ma diode it's just right. 

Of course for a 20 ma diode it would be 1k ohm 

And a really high power LED like a 60 ma one would be 330 ohms. 

Cliff, the LED question is based on a drawing but no specs on the diode... if this is a red or green, then the 3.6 volt drop on the diode is wrong, and you need to recalculate. 

Start off with the LED specs... if this is a red LED, then for example Ron should have used an 820 resistor to get his 30 ma of current... his 680 ohm resistor and a red LED gives 35 milliamps... pretty hot for most ordinary leds. 

Bottom, you cannot compare apples to oranges... 

Start with the supply voltage, the LED voltage drop and the LED current... use a calculator... or calculate it yourself. 

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By BodsRailRoad on 06 Aug 2013 07:09 PM 

I used that resistor because that's what I was told was needed to get my 22.5 volts track power down to the High output LEDs needed voltage.
I went through Mouser electronics and they worked out the resistor size needed. They have been working perfectly for over two years now, so I guess they were right.

To mount the best way heat sink without worry is with Artic silver heat sink adhesive, fills in any gaps and imperfections between the mating surfaces.


Thanks for the reply Ron. And again, it's neat that you found this combination. I didn't mean to question it, but rather just to ask if any lumens were being lost due to the somewhat limited offerings in VCC's built-in resistor ratings.

And yep, that Arctic stuff is what I got. I tried to find some specs on how large of gaps it would fill, couldn't find any. So good testimonial.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, you're right, I should have been more specific about the diode.

I'm sort of using this to learn something about resistors... so, using a blue LED, varying the ohms in the resistor, and using the formula I=V/R:


http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/216/WP7113QBC-G-74776.pdf Color Blue Forward volts 3.3 Millicandelas (potential) 4000 Milliamps (for max output) 20 Input volts 21.5 Voltage Drop (V) 18.2 Ohms (R) 1200 910 Amps (I) 0.015 0.020 Milliamps provided 15 20 Delta amps 76% 100% Millicandelas (actual) 3033 4000 


The luminous output won't be directly linear, so this is just an approximation. 

Point being, to get the best indication outdoors, resistor choice might have a substantial affect... and I see what you mean Greg, color choice comes into the mix,

Mouser P/N WP7113QBC/G WP1503SRC/F WP7113ZGCK VAOL-5LWY4 Color Blue Red Green White Forward volts 3.3 2.5 3.3 3.5 Millicandelas (potential) 4000 4000 12000 4000 Milliamps (for max output) 20 20 20 30 Input volts 21.5 21.5 21.5 21.5 Voltage Drop (V) 18.2 19 18.2 18 Ohms (R) 910 1000 910 620 Amps (I) 0.020 0.019 0.020 0.029 Milliamps provided 20 19 20 29 Delta amps 100% 95% 100% 97% Millicandelas (actual) 4000 3800 12000 3871 

And then there's viewing angle... 

Wow, so much to learn! It's all fun though.

===>Cliffy


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I remember that the LEDs I used had a very low voltage operating range, I think it was 1.5v, 
and with the 1200 ohm resistor it would be very close to the 1.5v.

I'm not much of a sparkie, so I took there word for it.

The light output is very high right at the 4000L its rated at, you can see for yourself in the pictures on the mod thread.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Ron, 

Just so you know, the red LED (Mouser WP7113SRC/F) you used seems to be "scheduled for obsolescence," but the similar thing is WP1503SRC/F -- which actually has a better viewing angle (30 vs. 20). 

These things last so long though, you'll probably never need to replace them. 

BTW, the 4000 value refers to millicandelas, which is 4 candelas -- basically, the illumination put off by four candles. 

You've mentioned that they were nice and visible, that's great -- especially given the small viewing angle: 20 degrees total, or 10 degrees from vertical all around. So if it's bright beyond that angle, even in the daylight, that seems really good. If you stand right over the thing (within the 20 degree cone), is it REALLY bright? Just curious. 

Thanks! 
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I guess a big lesson for me in all this is that the resistor requirements are much more sensitive to LED specs than I first thought. I'm so used to incandescent, this is so new. 

Do folks typically keep a stock of certain resistor values for LED projects? Or are typical needs so across the map that there's no point? 

For example, would this be a good stock: 620, 680, 750, 820, 910, 1000? Or is there no point in trying? 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The new PSX-AR's finally came in yesterday, so I was able to complete the boxes:










The boards tested out fine, and the Prodrive works well. Gee, I knew there was a reason I started this!









The cable gland seemed to seal reasonably well: a squirt of silicone in its body, after feeding the wires through but before installation of the rubber ferrule and nut. Upon tightening, the silicone oozed out nicely between the wires. Again, this mini-harness isn't meant to be removed from the box.

As for bonding the heat sink, I now know the difference between thermal compound and thermal adhesive. I'd bought the former, didn't have the latter, so I reverted to the cut-to-fit thermal pad. Not as adhesive as I'd like, but good enough for now.

Since these boxes are bigger than the Radio Shack ones I began with, I needed to get another trackside structure 'cause one of them was now too small. 

Tomorrow: re-installing, running the wires, and testing. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's another thing... I would like the train to always enter the loop with the loop & switch aligned for normal, rather than in alternating fashion (between normal and reversed mode). 



My thought was to activate a relay via metal wheels crossing a gap, with said gap being at least 1 train length away from the loop's switch, on the main line. The relay contacts would be SPST, connecting the main line & loop rails to be "aligned," basically taking the place of the SPST override switch in the PSX-AR manual. 

So, I'm now interested in a simple way to sense metal wheels crossing a gap, in a DCC outdoor application, that doesn't involve circuit boards, train-mounted magnets or light sensors.

In Feb 2013 GR, p. 21 Fig 7, it shows what I roughly had in mind for the rail-gap "sensor," with a short bit of insulated rail that is wired as a "trigger" to other things. Seems like using that approach, I might even be able to get rid of the relay, and simply wire that "trigger" bit of rail back to the "aligned" rail of the reverse loop. 

This is probably pretty confusing, so I'll post a what-if diagram later. 

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 11 Aug 2013 06:59 AM 


Here's another thing... I would like the train to always enter the loop with the loop & switch aligned for normal, rather than in alternating fashion (between normal and reversed mode). 



My thought was to activate a relay via metal wheels crossing a gap, with said gap being at least 1 train length away from the loop's switch, on the main line. The relay contacts would be SPST, connecting the main line & loop rails to be "aligned," basically taking the place of the SPST override switch in the PSX-AR manual. 

So, I'm now interested in a simple way to sense metal wheels crossing a gap, in a DCC outdoor application, that doesn't involve circuit boards, train-mounted magnets or light sensors.

In Feb 2013 GR, p. 21 Fig 7, it shows what I roughly had in mind for the rail-gap "sensor," with a short bit of insulated rail that is wired as a "trigger" to other things. Seems like using that approach, I might even be able to get rid of the relay, and simply wire that "trigger" bit of rail back to the "aligned" rail of the reverse loop. 

This is probably pretty confusing, so I'll post a what-if diagram later. 

===>Cliffy 



The rail gap/metal wheel sensor is the basis of the Bump A.S.S. system. In its simplist form, all you need are the rail gaps, a wall wart, and a relay that matches the voltage of the wall wart. 
If I understand this correctly, the train aligns the turnout as it approaches. Then the train goes through the loop and a sensor must tell the turnout to throw to the other side before the engine gets there. All is well.

The engine goes through the turnout, and a few railcars, and it again hits the gap realigning the turnout the other way, with railcars now approaching a turnout that is thrown against them. You need to consider your spacing and train lenghts carefully.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Todd,

I looked up your write-up, it sure looks like a very clever and efficient method!
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

Though I might want to go for the block detection eventually, at the moment I just need to do one small part: isolating a tiny bit of rail, jumpering around it, and wiring that rail bit back to one of the reverse loop rails. That will send a momentary pulse to the PSX-AR, ensuring it will align itself to "normal" mode and move the switch motor to "normal" direction.

So, how do you make that "trigger" rail? What do you use? What kind of joiners, how long, etc.? 

The thing that comes to mind is the use of 2 insulated Hillman or Split-Jaw clamps, side by side, with the short piece (with a wire soldered to it) between.
http://www.hillmanrailclamps.com/33..._p_20.html (but are they closed?)
http://www.railclamp.com/#!/~/produ...d=16661996

Not sure though how you get 2 joiners close enough together to not disrupt power to the loco, but still fit on either side of a tie... 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Got the units wired in to the reverse loops, ran the cables back to the switch machines, and... 


*IT ALL WORKS! *

Which ever direction the train comes in on, the loop is already electrically in phase. Once it passes the second gap, the phase reverses, and the ol' ProDrive moves over. 

So thanks again guys for all your help!!

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's the schematic, updated with the optional realignment wiring idea that should make the loop always present one preferred side to incoming trains. I've also hinted at the two override pushbuttons shown in the PSX-AR manual.











If I'm seeing this correctly, that new realignment gap at the top will trigger the PSX-AR to "normal" or "aligned" mode, either by an incoming train or one leaving the loop (once its first metal wheelset crosses the gap, thus requiring 1 train length between gap and switch).

My reason is twofold. First, to mainly use the side of the loop which, in my case, represents the prototypical trackage, and only use the "rear" part when reversing is really needed. Second, to allow K1's coil to only be energized in the brief periods of actual loop reversal, hopefully making it last longer. Otherwise, its coil might stay energized for a long time, that is, until the next train came back through the loop or until I shut the system off.

Does anyone see a flaw in that logic? 
====>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 11 Aug 2013 01:25 PM 
Hey Todd,

So, how do you make that "trigger" rail? What do you use? What kind of joiners, how long, etc.? 

Not sure though how you get 2 joiners close enough together to not disrupt power to the loco, but still fit on either side of a tie... 

===>Cliffy 



I use a couple of the AristoCraft insulators, but the LGBs will also do the trick. Solder the wire to the short piece of track just under the railhead before hand and be careful soldering the bypass wire so that you don't deform the plastic insulators. Any power interuption with these is shorter than a plastic insulated turnout frog.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Perfect Todd, that answers my questions. 


To make the joiners fit, it looks like all you needed to do was grind away the "chair" on the tie. Looks like the split-jaw type of clamps wouldn't fit that way, but the Aristo-LGB types would. 


Nice and simple, thanks!
Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 12 Aug 2013 05:49 AM 
Perfect Todd, that answers my questions. 


To make the joiners fit, it looks like all you needed to do was grind away the "chair" on the tie. Looks like the split-jaw type of clamps wouldn't fit that way, but the Aristo-LGB types would. 


Nice and simple, thanks!
Cliff 

Don't "grind" anything. Cut off a small piece and use it for the "detector section." The space taken up by the two plastic "uprights" will compensate for the small loss of rail in the cutting/smoothing process.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

By "grind," I meant cut with a Dremel disk. But I think I see what you're saying in your first pic, creating a groove for the plastic joiner. 
Thanks for the extra tip Todd. 
I've got the plastic joiners on order, so maybe next weekend I'll test this thing out. 
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I sent the recent schematic (showing the "remote trigger" wiring) to Larry Maier of DCC Specialties, and he said it should work. 

I was looking at Split Jaw's clamp components, and am exploring a different way to hold the bit of trigger rail. Though I'll start with your method Todd, the idea of eventually clamping it all together seems attractive. Here's what I was thinking.




















The plastic (Delrin?) clamp bits and screws are from Split Jaw's PB-332-SJCx2-7.0 double insulated clamp. I didn't see that 4-screw nutplate in their offerings; and it would be nice to be able to just buy the parts needed. So I've got an email in to them, we'll see. 

If this were a kit, I could see it coming with the short rail (with a pre-tapped hole) and the jumper wire (with lugs pre-soldered). 

A disadvantage here is that you have to put in your own spacers, such as Dave Bodnar suggested in one of his articles, using a piece of nylon cable tie and maybe some epoxy. Another disadvantage is that you have to really chop the tie.

But, it seems like it might be a solid connection. Another advantage to this approach might be that one can make the trigger piece of rail quite short. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just got a call from Jerry at Split Jaw. We talked over this "trigger clamp" idea, and he not only got it, he assembled one as we spoke. 

Since the plastic clamps don't grip as well as the metal, he favored my initial approach of using metal clamps on the inside (vs. plastic w/ a nut plate). So I'll start with that, and hope I can get the spacing all locked in (to prevent shorts). That was the advantage of the all-plastic one, because the clamp bits wouldn't electrically interfere, and the trigger piece could be shorter than the middle metal clamp. We'll see.





















Here's the reasons I've seen that one could use this "trigger clamp", which I conveyed to Jerry in an email:As a remote trigger for the PSX-AR reverse loop controller (DCC Specialties; they've approved this method to me in writing)As a relay trigger for the Dallee Trak-DTT (see GR Feb 2013, p21)As a relay trigger for Todd Alin's "Bump A.S.S." block detection method (see MLS forums)As a latching relay trigger for a signal, animation, etc.

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If the clamp is to utilize metal, make it serve as the "jumper wire" between the outter sections.

Have the Allen screws for the "trigger" insulated from the outter rails, but able to contact the trigger rail so that a round lug can be used on the Allen head rather than soldering the "trigger" wire.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

If it were my product, I'd try to design for just that -- an all-in-one thing. But the long outside clamp is plastic, and I'm trying to go with their standard components for now. 
Which means a jumper wire between the 2 outer screws. 
However, I think the two middle screws will work for the trigger wire, as you describe.


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## RGS K27-461 (Jan 8, 2008)

Cliff, Fantastic work







I've been following this thread for awhile now, just amazed by your can do anything attitude, it's made me realise I cannot hide behind an excuse anymore to avoid doing my reverse loops. So it's time to get started. I'm about to build a few of these boxes myself, but I wasn't sure how to start. So thanks for the steps / instructions. Do you have a required items List you can share in building 1 of your Boxes. I already have the PSX-AR. I know I'll have to order the items through a different supplier down here in Oz.


Thanks

Phil

PS Thanks Greg for your help in the past.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Phil, you just made my day.

Have to credit Greg, Ron and Todd for their assistance and patience of course, but I appreciate it.

Keep in mind that the optimal will probably be a blend of approaches (e.g., Greg's heat sinks sit on the transistors better). But sure, I'll put together a list of what I used, and let you to use your own judgment on the particulars.

BTW, my mod was specifically geared toward controlling a ProDrive switch machine. Were you using that, or some other method / device? 

Thanks,
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's a whack at the parts list, Phil.
Feel free to make improvements -- 'cause there's a lot of room for 'em! 



PSX-AR Mod's Sonalert 1 Mallory MSR320R Greg found these (VERY helpful) http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...39-MSR320R LED 1 VCC VAOL-5LWY4 5mm white, 20 ma (to indicate when the circuit is "thrown," "non-aligned") http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...VAOL-5LWY4 Heat sink 1 Get from Tony's Trains, or cut from this: http://www.amazon.com/Gino-20mm-Alu...s=heatsink Heat sink pad A/R Didn't adhere great; this is a big sheet. This is NOT heat sink compound (which isn't an adhesive). But it isn't too permament either. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 Coating A/R MG Chemicals Conformal Coating Spray on finished boards (per Greg) to protect from moisture. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 Enclosure Box 1 Hamond RP1185C 6.50 x 3.35 x 3.35 ABS Clear Lid http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...46-RP1185C Gland 1 PG-9 cable gland http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 Wire A/R #14 stranded, color-coded for internal wiring; used landscape lighting cable across layout Sealant A/R GE 100% RTV Silicone, spoodged into the gland / between wires, before final tighening Screw anchors 4 those ~1" long, hard plastic tube-things Screws 4 #6 self-tapping, SS I think #6 (match with your anchors) Adapter Board Project board 1 4x6 cm, or similar http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 K1 relay 1 DPDT, 12v, momentary consider getting a socket for this…? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 D1-D4 4 Diode, 1N4007 or similar dropping diodes to protect the relay coil http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 BR 1 1 Bridge rectifier 4 amp, overkill… http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Id=2062580 J1-3 3 PCB terminal block, 5.08 pitch allow the adapter board's removal http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&psc=1 Layout Wiring Cable (track) #14-2 landscape lighting cable Cable (switch) #16-2 landscape lighting cable Joiners 4 Train Li TL10-20033 for cable connections (my pref; these are a bargain) http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/b...e8ff67b0f8 Connectors 3 pr Dean's plugs heavy duty and rugged http://www.ebay.com/itm/11101284526...1497.l2649 Insulated joiners 4 Train Li TL-30013 (my pref…) http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/b...e8ff67b0f8 Connector (at switch) JST connector your choice, but I used these http://www.ebay.com/itm/32102866742...1497.l2648 Remote Trigger Circuit (optional) "Trigger Joiner" 1 call Jerry, ask for the "custom double insulated trigger joiner" (but I should have asked for brass, to be able to solder to, now that I think about it…) http://www.railclamp.com/#!/~/categ...ort=normal Cable (single wire) #16 or #14 landscape lighting cable Joiners 4 Train Li TL10-20033 for the jumper, and the trigger wire (still working out how to join to the 'trigger' piece…)


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## RGS K27-461 (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks Cliff. 

I'll report back when I've got it all....may need your guidance. 

Phil


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You got it, Phil. 

Best luck!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just got the "trigger clamps" in from Split Jaw:











For the record, here's how they described this thing on their invoice:

Trigger Clamp made from PSS-332-SJC x 2.
Uses 3 clamping jaws with 2 single screw jaws
at each end and 1 double screw jaw in the middle. 


Seems to be nice electrical conductivity between the center screw heads, which means that juice goes through the threads and stainless middle clamp and back out. And therefore, that lugs under the screw heads (soldered to wire) should work for both the jumper and the trigger wire. At least I'll try that out for now. 

More pics to come,

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I installed 2 of these "trigger clamps" today, and all went well. Here's some progress shots.










Sorry for the fuzzy pic, but this is of the underside of the clamp. 3 lugs have been screwed on. The outer 2 are connected with a jumper wire. One in the middle is soldered to the trigger wire. 

Here's one of the clamps installed: 










These are the connections at the other end.










Got some work to do on the ties. But you see the insulated joiners in the middle; input wires to the PSX-AR on the left; outputs from same on the right. The right wire, on the lower right joiner, is the new trigger wire. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but all the trigger wire (located about 30' to the left) is doing is emulating a screwdriver placed across the lower left rail and the lower right rail. That's enough to tell the PSX-AR to align itself with the leg of the loop pictured here. If I'd wanted the opposite leg to be favored as the default, I could have fastened the trigger wire to the opposite joiner (upper right). Super simple.

And the cool bonus thing is that, beyond all my blah-blah, it actually worked! 

Here's a recap-pic.










Crappy text, but you get the idea. 

I want to emphasize something, that the trigger clamp must be at least a train length away from the switch points of the loop. Otherwise, a train exiting the loop (if its first metal wheels hits the trigger and is still going through the switch) will have had a tough day. 

This is why I had to bag this approach on my north loop, because my first yard switch is just too close (~12'). 

Another thing that became clearer today. In my two south loops, there are sidings between the trigger clamp and loop switch. That means that NO other loco can be accessing those sidings while a "through train" is going through the loop. I suppose it's self evident: if you put a trigger device out there, ya gotta preclude anything except what you want to do the triggering.

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 24 Aug 2013 02:22 PM 

I want to emphasize something, that the trigger clamp must be at least a train length away from the switch points of the loop. Otherwise, a train exiting the loop (if its first metal wheels hits the trigger and is still going through the switch) will have had a tough day. 

This is why I had to bag this approach on my north loop, because my first yard switch is just too close (~12'). 

Another thing that became clearer today. In my two south loops, there are sidings between the trigger clamp and loop switch. That means that NO other loco can be accessing those sidings while a "through train" is going through the loop. I suppose it's self evident: if you put a trigger device out there, ya gotta preclude anything except what you want to do the triggering.

===>Cliffy 


But you knew this would happen.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 24 Aug 2013 11:02 PM 
But you knew this would happen.







Yeah, but I'd forgotten to measure on the north end, whether I had room enough (1 train length) for the trigger distance. 

Also, I'm encountering a lot of this for the first time, so I don't have all the foresight you old-timers have.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

One final thing I'm considering for this circuit, and it's a means of local control of the switch & loop. Since the switch machine is under control of the PSX-AR, there's no way to throw it manually, say, if you wanted to send a train into the loop in the non-usual direction. I ran into this issue during a testing scenario. No big deal, but it got me thinking.

So it turns out that only a tiny mod to the schematic would achieve this. Basically, I've already run my "trigger wire" to its trigger clamp, and that wire is going by the switch -- where I would like the "manual" control. All that's needed is a SPDT switch from either rail to that trigger wire. Momentarily throwing the switch will cause the PSX-AR to either sense a short and re-align things, or not sense a short and stay as-is. 










Here's the rocker and its jbox:










About $10 for both, plus shipping, from Digikey. 

The box is watertight, and kinda cute. SS fasteners, o-ring seal, about $4. 
http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...=hm1102-nd

The switch is only weatherproof. But I took one apart, and it seems robust enough (for a plastic product). Don't do that yourself though, I couldn't get the dang thing back together. 
The bellows is silicone, and it wouldn't hurt to add some RTV to seal it more at the top and bottom. 
http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...maction=on

Now, a little warning about this switch: it's not momentary, though that would have been much better. If someone / something pushes it over and leaves it there, the PSX-AR would be constantly commanded to be aligned with one direction. When a train going going through the loop triggered the alignment to flip, that rocker switch would fight it. My solution: glue a G-gauge wine barrel to it, and do a visual check once in a while to make sure it's not been inadvertently clicked to one side. Still, a momentary switch would be preferable here, but I didn't see one in this weatherproof line.

Anyway, that's the idea.... 

===>Cliffy


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