# Roadbed Roadbed Roadbeg Ugh...



## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Ok, so I've been reading quite a bit on this site, mainly because it seems there's no other usefull info out there... Or atleast that I can find... 

I LIVE IN NORTH EAST OHIO

I'M A CHEAP A$$

I'M ALSO A CONTRACTOR

Sorry, had to draw attention to that as it seems to be an issue that I live where I live and that I'm a cheapo. LOL

My layout is not going to be complicated, that will come with time and experience, for now it's essentially going to be a figure 8 with some twists and turns in it, one track is all... 

It seems to me that the preffered method is to silicone the track to the concrete and have your concrete slabs on top of atleast 4" of gravel for drainage. Then add dirt or whatever to make it look a little better. Is there a better way? Remember, I'm cheap LOL No seriously, I've spent my quota on hobbies this year all ready and it's not even march yet...

Thanks for any help and sorry if this is the most commonly asked question...

I'd love to hear from people who deal with frost... not theorys...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

if you are cheap, I'd not do the concrete and just lay the track on coarse gravel, about 3/8". Don't even try to glue the track to the concrete, the concrete will move and shift somewhat. 

If you want to tie it down to the concrete, use the method JJ does, maybe he will post a picture. 

Regards, Greg


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks, is he the one who uses tapcons? 

Also, when you say gravel should it be limestone? 

I'd imagine wash gravel would just move all over the place...


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

If your concrete is built correct and you glue the track down it will NEVER shift. If the track shifts then you did your concrete WRONG. Only use the concrete method if you plan on having your layout for a LONG time as it will be a bitch to remove when you are done. The other prefered methon is the ladder method where you use wood or Trex to build a ladder framework above the ground. The ladder can be backfilled later with dire and scenery can be added. You can also lay your track directly on the ground or on a base of gravel. You will need to use rail clamps at every rail joint and you will also need to realign all of your track every year.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

Frost?!? 
In Brockport, NY (between Rochester and Buffalo) I piled up some dirt, edged it with rocks then dug a trench about 6"x6" which I filled with #2 gravel. I laid Aristocraft sectional track and ballasted with 1A gravel, both it and the #2 were washed. My original pike was a figure of eight, up and over. As I got more deeply into live steam I rebuilt the layout level but kept the same scheme of track support. Some will say it washes out but raised above the ground level about a foot I never had problems. Plantings grew over the 12 years of operation and I really liked the result. Some reballasting each spring is necessary but pleasurable work I thought. The 1:1 guys use this method and it worked well for me. 
Have fun with your railroad, 
Tom


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

For ballast you want broken rock, not wash gravel or river rock. Odd angles and sharp corners interlock and hold better. Smooth rocks wander. 
For your learner layout, keep it simple lay down some weed barrier cloth and use lawn edging strips or bender board to outline your road bed and fill with crushed rock. 
This will allow you to learn about what seems like a good idea and what works... 
Lay your track on the ballast secured together, I use Aristo SS track and I torque set the small screws. Next place your fingers on the ties and vibrate the track and it will settle into the ballast. Now you can use that trick to smooth out bumps and dips (lift add rock, vibrate flat again.) Use pipe where the ground drains. Once satisfied add a layer of finer sized ballast and fill between the ties. Keep this layer away from switches 

Run some trains and see how it looks, no big deal to change. Once you get the feel you can trench if you want to lower your track... or build cribbing to hold your roadbed instead of the edger. 

John


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Out of respect for you being a contractor, you know most of the answers. 
Apply your building knowlege to your RRing. 
Apply your time management to your needs of the RR and how much running you'll be able to do. 
Apply your budgeting and goals to your RR. 
I use tampons

JJis in AZ very dry
just thoughts.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Howdy

I am verry Dry JJ









All my road bed is concrete. Learned it from Marty 

I do not think it is that expesive.

Try making a deal with your local Home Depot or Lowes for the broken bags. I use to play 25 bucks a pallet for the broken bags of concrete mix, motar/ stucco mix, and pure potland cement. They were all on the same pallet.

Here is a link to my Ballasting Lesson and my Track Anchor Lesson.

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

The way I do it holds the track firmly in place but allows for some movement.

Important::::: ALL THE SCREWS THAT HOLD THE RAIL TO THE TIES ARE REMOVED.

The rail can slide in the ties at times. 

I have a minamum of movement due to expantion with the way I anchor my track

It is also very easy to remove and put back in place if for some reason you have to work on it.

Here is a view of my RR. Try not to look at the mess that surounds it.









http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

JJ 

If you want to ask questions Send me a message through MLS


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I do not knwo why the links turned out like they did. You have to copy and past them to view them 

JJ


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I with Tom and my RR is laid as a floating RR like the 1 to 1 RR and it has been easy to maintain. Mine has been in place now for 9 years. Cheap to. Later RJD


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

This is all very interesting... 

My track is all aristo craft and can be screwed together with those God awfull tiny screws... 

We don;t plan on moving in the next fifty years so I'd like this to be as permanent as possible...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I own my home and don't plan on moving either, but I have moved track around. 
I can scoop up rock and move it easily and that's my only gripe with concrete, you can't move it, just bust it up.... 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Fish:

Your track will adjust with the seasons. I once knew a guy in Denver who anchored his track and came out on a hot day to see his track separated from the ties. Another friend in Denver compensated for thermal expansion and contraction with the seasons when he build his layout. Some of his curves moved several inches in and out between winter and summer. In NE Ohio you have cold winters and hot summers, my recommendation would be to float your track on crusher fines. If your proposed layout space is totally shaded, you might be able to anchor it.

Chuck


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

RJ 
I to used to free float like the "real RRs " do, but that is back when I had a tiny RR. now with over 22,000 sq ft things have changed. Needs have changed , and the light weight plastic ties, and longer rail changes things.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the floating ballast method, too. It is cheap to get started, but it does cost you in time and materials annaully. My railroad has changed quite a bit from the first year it was down until now. 

Limestone is probably the cheapest. I've used crusher fines for all of my railroads. It does wash away and you will need to go back and add more every year. Limestone does dissolve in water eventually. 

For my upcoming railroad rebuild, I am planning to use concrete under my switches and for parts of the railroad that require good leveling.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

SORRY RJ 
That was uncalled for.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

I think I've decided on what to do... Limestone which I can get by the ton right around the corner and chicken grit as ballast... which I can also get from right around the other corner.... 

THis project cannot really be justified in my mind until other things are finished around here... So for the time being I will be setting up a small 12x16 loop in the upstairs of my small barn. This will keep my boys off my back and will satisfy me if I decide to get new trains and want to test them right away....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is a good start







But once you get a loop of any kind down and catch the fever, you will be bulldozing you neighbors house for my layout space









Dont Forget to post pictures of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you do.

We will want to follow your progress. 

JJ


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh, the illness is there... In the Aquarium world we have an illness called MTS, Multiple Tank Syndrome... I have a horrible case of it 50 times over... Literally... 

I suppose we could call this MTS also, Multiple Track Syndrome! LOL 

I've got 6 acres to play with but in reality I only plan to set up something small at first. Where I want to run two main lines is around the pond but my kids are still young and it would get destroyed... 

So for probably a year (unless I do really good on my honey do list) the small track in the upstairs of the barn will have to do, then the track behind the barn will be perfect because it's outside of the fenced in part of the yard... Thus keeping four inquisitive and destructive kids away from the layout... Not to mention their friends who seem to want to come here all the time... 

I often shoot video for things rather than take pictures. Will links to youtube work on the forum? Let's try... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSQfAhETgDU


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Cool, it works! I'll definately shoot more vids then! Should I just keep going in this thread or start a new?


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice video. 

WHatever you do for ballast, make sure the stone you purchase has fines in it.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,
It's all in how you take it. Like RJ, I also float my track on ballast prototypically but I also have a relatively "dinky" layout (at least in comparison to the NTCGRR) which makes my choice work for me. I'm sure RJ (and by extension, the rest of us) realize that you weren't making a judgement call but simply stating a fact for your situation. I now have 250 ft. of mainline spreadout over a 3000 sq. ft. area and that's all Patsy will allow! I have modified my roadbed to include concrete and/or stone bricks as the base with poultry grit as packing material (and as a top layer to float the track on.) This works for me but I also have only 1/8th the area of yours! Different situations require different solutions. No judgement call so don't feel bad. I'm sure it was taken in the spirit it was intended!


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

Fish, where in the north east are you? I'm as far North & East in oHIo as you can get without getting wet or going into PA. Once this weather breaks you'd be welcome to come over and see what I have going on. 

I started with a trench filled with 4/11 limestone. It wasn't bad but I had alot of frostheave and washout problems. I switched to a ladder method. When spring *finally* comes to NE oHIo I'm hoping I did a good enough job putting it in that it doesn't require a lot of spring maintenance. For ballast I used chicken grit but have now switched to #11 limestone. Once it gets wet it locks in place quite nice and doesn't wash out near as easy. Also, for me the available chicken grit was bright white and didn't look very realistic. 

If you have any questions drop me a line. I'd be happy to share my outdoor railroading adventures in NE oHIo. 

Terry


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks Terry, I live in Orwell, 44076, essentially Rts 322 & 45. 

I like your signature... Not sure if you saw the video but I collect beer bottles and have been labeled a beer snob... 

It's 11:37 AM, is it to early to start drinking? 

Another video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmEzYFjh4hw 

Check out all the bottles: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74_pzqJzZGI


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Fishguy, 

I'm just going to add a couple of things about frost since it hasn't really been dealt with. I live in Canada where as you can imagine, frost is not unknown to us!  
I'm in the earthmoving/roadbuilding business so I approach my railway like I do building roads. Assuming you are going to put your track on the ground, or say 1' off the ground, the thing you want to do is to get rid of any organics below the track or embankment fill prism. It's a lot of work but important. It's those organics that are frost susceptible, and that's why when you build up your subgrade/subballast you want to use a clean (0-5% passing the 200sieve) gravel so that it has a minimal amount of organics or frost susceptible grain sizes. Maybe you can tell me what your soils are like...topsoil over sand or whatever. Drainage is also critical, and that's why I would recommend you build your track up off the ground with gravel. Over the life span of your railway gravel is cheap. Doesn't matter whether it's limestone, granite etc as long as it's "clean" as mentioned above. My track free floats and I don't mind topping up the track each year after the heavy rains we get in the winter--it's a good chance to level and check things over anyway. For the final ballasting I use 1/4" stonedust, which is 100% fractured, and depending on who/how they make it is usually pretty clean on the bottom sieve sizes too. Since it's made out of rock, the fine grain sizes are not organic anyway so are not as frost susceptible. It is "well-graded" which means it has a good even distribution of grain sizes and compacts well. the problem with chicken or budgie grit is that it is "gap graded" because it only has a few grain sizes. This just means it doesn't pack but it is excellent for final levelling of the track just like on the real thing, where you can lift the track and the gap-graded aggregate will flow around the ties etc. and not need as much compaction since it's all stone to stone contact. Sorry for the long explanation but trying to impress upon you the importance of drainage, gradation etc. 

Good luck, 
Keith


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks Keith, the spot chosen is high ground and I have considered drainage. Water is the enemy... 

The layout will be a figure 8 of sorts and in the center of each roundish area will be a drain. on one side it will be in the form of a pond, and the pond will have it's own overflow. 

Being a contractor I'm aware of the importance of drainage and the ability to provide water it's easiest path to escape... 

My Driveway is gravel and it gets 4/11, not pea gravel like some others... There's another alternative that one of my friends uses in his driveway... Ground up asphalt, he swears by it. Actually we call it ABC asphalt (Already Been Chewed) That might be a decent alternative to 4/11 which is what I plan to use... Has anyone tried that? 

I think it's safe to assume I'm not using concrete.


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

Fish, I'm in Conneaut. If you want contact me off line.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Make sure you get "stone" chicken grit instead of "oceanic" or "shell" chicken grit! I didn't know there was a difference until I bought the wrong variety one summer. It looked great going down, but once the rain fell, it all turned white!


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

thanks very much!


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Terry,
Hope things are going ok up north for you? Based on the amount of snow we have gotten so far this year, I think you will get a good test for your new track work, so I hope your efforts pay off.

Say, the #11 limestone, is it the same size as the medium chicken grit you used to use? I'm paying about $7 a 50 pound bag for the chicken grit and the line stone is probably cheaper, at least that's my guess, so I might be able to save a few bucks. 


Regards,
Mark

*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com*


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark where do you get your chicken grit from? I get it down in narvare at the feed store


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I get it in Copley at the Copley Feed & Grain store. 
Mark


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

I found a buidling material that is composite and is used for house siding, half cement, half recycled paper. It is stiff, durable, you can tack track to it, and it is very cheap! $8.00 per 12'X8'' board! as long as it is small, this material is more bang for the buck than cement.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

I've got a plan for a decent sized layout in the back, but a few weeks ago I watched a couple of landscapers put in a flag stone path and they were using limestone screenings underneath for a base. I said to myself, self, that would make some cool looking ballast... So I filled my coffee cup up with some and brought it home with me from work that nite. I was right, the stuff looked sweet... So I got myself a ton a few days later and decided to do a small layout in the front yard through the flowerbeds. I wanted to essentially let the track eb and flow with the land only concerning myself with the track being level from side to side. The approach I took was to just layout the track, connect it all together then pour the ballast over it, lift the track where need be and clean the ballast off the top. We have frost and heave issues here so I'm curious to see how this lasts through the winter. It's only 130' of track and it only took about 8 hours to complete... Comments and suggestions and the like are definately welcome!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs9...ature=plcp



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kmu...ature=plcp



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cfw...ature=plcp

What do you think?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Most important is you have a train running, great.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For 8 hours of work you kicked a$$ !!! 

The only comment is watch the limestone, in some areas it is too alkaline and attacks the track... all depends... 

Thanks for the "ride"! 

Greg


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

What part of northeast ohio do you live in. We live in canton.Welcome aboard.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

MTS, unfortunately, I know that one all too well! I just put my goldfish out in the pond for the summer so that's 1 less tank to deal with.  
You have 6 acres? For God's sake, don't look at the ride on rail! You'll be laying hundreds of feet of that before you know it, Like Marty did.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm in Orwell, 44076, essentially the rts 322&45. 

thanks folks, now I've got questions... The first might be simple, what's the difference between aristo-craft 29200 couplers and aristo-craft 29199? 

Those aristo-craft couplers are the cats a$$, you can literally hang cars from one another without them coming undone! LOL, I know, I've tried... I'm changing all my stock and engines over to them and just found the 29199 for a heck of a lot cheaper... Just curious if anyone knows the difference... 

The second might not be so easy. It seems I can reply to threads on this forum but not start them?? What am I doing wrong? LOL I wanted to start a new thread about the couplers but it wouldn't let me??


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TheFishGuy on 05 May 2012 12:57 PM 
{snip...}[/i] The second might not be so easy. It seems I can reply to threads on this forum but not start them?? What am I doing wrong? LOL I wanted to start a new thread about the couplers but it wouldn't let me?? Well one method is...
[*] Scroll to the top of most any MLS web page.
[*] Locate the MLS menu bar (i.e. the dark-blue rule that has your User ID & Logout at its right end).
[*] Point to the Community menu with your mouse to display the drop-down menu.
[*] Point to and left-click the Forums menu option with your mouse.
[*] On the All Forums page locate the specific forum in which you wish to create a new topic.
[*] Point to and left-click the forum name, which is a hyperlink.
[*] Left-click the







button located in the upper-left of the Forum page.
[*] After the Rich-text/HTML editor displays, compose your originating reply in the Message content area.
_(Note: Make sure that you've entered a _"Title"[/i]_ for your topic in the _"Subject:"[/i]_ field, or you will not be able to post the topic.)_

[*] Left-click the Submit button.
[/list]


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Ok, I do all that, what happens next is not only amusing but frustrating. The page reloads with my subject title still intact but the message body now missing... After numerous attempts I ususally just give up. This started after becoming a first class member. I had zero issues previous...?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, if you have followed the steps outlined in my previous reply, things are not working correctly. Because, there are two separate editor pages, one for creating a new topic and one for creating a reply to an existing topic (see below images).

















If you're using a laptop/desktop computer the first thing I would try is clearing your local cache.

If per chance you are using MS/Internet Explorer v8/v9, do you have the "Compatibility View" enabled?

MS/Internet Explorer v9 - Compatilbility View Video[/b]



What hardware are you using (e.g. laptop, desktop, smartphone etc. etc.)?
What operating system are you using (e.g. MS/Windows XP/Vista/7, Apple OS X, etc. etc.)?
What browser are you using (e.g. MS/Internet Explorer v8/v9, FireFox, Safari, etc. etc.)?


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

It's not on my end... I guarantee that. 

but to play along I'm using a lap top with windows 7. 

I also use a laptop with windows xp 

and I also use an Ipod. 

I'm a moderator on a large "fish" site, I'm no stranger as to how forums work. I will admit though that this forum is a bit strange when it comes to the methods of posting pictures and video, others are much more user friendly... 

I have started numerous jubjects in many different folders on this site before I became a first class member. I became a first class member to advertise something. That is the only thing that has changed. Since then starting a new topic has been impossible. I have checked all my personal settings numerous times and I've made numerous attempts. Even had others check to see if I was missing something. LOL


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, since I can not provide you with any further meaningful assistance I'll bow out, I have posted a reply for Shad maybe he will be able to resolve your problem.


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

The things Steve has suggested solve 99% of the problems. There are some upgrades that I am working on making on my end, but the workarounds listed DO work. Clear your cache, switch to compatibility mode and it will work.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Just read this: 

This weekend, myLargescale.com encountered some server issues. First the database ran out of disk space, causing a ton of errors and giving very sporadic results. As a result of the disk space issue, the application flipped out and created a bunch of duplicate entries in the database. These extra entries proved impossible to completely isolate, and made the whole application very unstable, showing very odd results. After looking at it all day to day, I decided the best course of action was to roll back to the most recent good backup of the database. Unfortunately, that backup is several days old, the morning of April 17th. As far as I can tell, everything is back to normal. I apologize for the lost posts over the last few days, but I had no other option. 



Also I must apologize for my lack of responsiveness lately. I have been dealing with a lot in my personal life lately. The most major being my 9 year old Paige. She was diagnosed with kidney stones on the 4th of the month. She was admitted to the hospital after a visit to the ER. After two surgeries and 5 nights at the children's hospital, she is still not 100% better. In fact she had a setback this weekend, getting an additional infection. She has another surgery scheduled in a few weeks. We've been terribly busy and stressed taking care of her, and trying to keep the other kids on a somewhat normal schedule. I've missed nearly 3 weeks of work. It's been a very busy stressful time. I haven't had a lot of time to focus on responding to emails from MLS members. I will try to catch up this week. Again, I apologize, but family has to come first. 




Thanks, for your understanding. 



Shad 

That being said and having four kids of my own I am in absolutely no rush to solve my little issue at all. Our prayers are with you and your family.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

I believe the compatability view has worked! Took two tries, but it worked! Thank you! 

http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/14/aft/124584/Default.aspx


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad to hear you've got your problem resolved.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh my! 

Sorry to hear about Paige. Take care of her.


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## TheFishGuy (Feb 1, 2011)

Posted By SteveC on 08 May 2012 05:01 AM 
Glad to hear you've got your problem resolved.










Yes, thanks to you!


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