# Multiple Bachmann Questions...



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope nobody minds, I've been around a couple of years, but haven't exactly been active for a while. I've been modelling since forever, and have done craftsman and scratchbuilding in other scales, so I'm pretty confident in my abilities. But I'm also smart enough to ask advice from those that have been there, done that, rather than reinventing the wheel...

1: What is the easiest way to replace the cube shaped chunks of metal impersonating couplers on Bachmann equipment with AMS trains ones? Connie, Annie, K-27, and Tank Car, and most likely a long caboose when I get a chance at one?

2: On the Connie, I know about the gear, and I'm going to replace it with a NWSL one when and if it breaks, however, right now I'm getting some "clicking" sounds, and it has a lot of slack in the drive train. This thing has its wheels polished to a high mirror sheen - from running. Should I just order the gear or could there be other "issues" causing the clicking? Actually, I'm a bit of a purist, and I know that the Connie can be made into a sort-of kind-of C-21, but the Baker valve gear has to go. I'd hate to do that, I thought of doing a "what-if" kind of thing where the D&RGW experimented with something, is there anything it's close in size to? There were standard gauge D&RGW locos with Baker gear. (C-48's for example...)

3: K-27, just bought it today, how do I know if it's had the counterweights replaced?

4: Annie, I just got it today also, and want to rebuild it into an RGS/D&RGW model, I've read a ton of articles and posts on it, my question is, exactly how accurate is it in size right now for 1:20.3? Do the very nice rebuilds I see come at least close to matching the correct size, length, proportions for Fn3? Or is more of a 1:22.5, etc kind of thing?

5: I'm seriuosly thinking about converting the K-27 (455 prewreck green boiler) into the 452, with the backup light on the tender, the silver outlined running boards and cylinder ends, and the tri-color herald. Are the 455 and 452 enough alike? I've studied pics of them in the Mudhens book, and other than a couple of minor plumbing differences here and there, they seem virtually identical. Did they have the same style tender? It seems Bachmann didn't make all of the variations they could of the K-27 which is perfectly OK, I just wanted something a bit different...

Plus, on a personal note, the 452 was used on the Chili Line, as were the J&S AMS coaches, thought that would be a cool match, and I have pics of mixed trains on the Chili with several freight cars, a coach with a caboose bringing up the rear. 

I'd also kind of like to take it up to Marshall Pass and take some pics of a 452, although probably not on it's side...

Thanks in advance, I'm going to get working on the "timesaver" style layout I planned a couple of years ago in the early Spring, as soon as I figure out all of the logistics of it. I'd love to make it portable, however, a whale is portable, but I don't think I'd want to try to move one, if you know what I mean...

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1) The AMS 1:20.3 coupler is a self-contained pocket that is pretty easy to bolt onto the B'mann equipment. Each installation you mention will be slightly different, but the couplers will work well. It's a shame AMS used the same draft gear as Kadee's "short" draft gear box, while Bachmann used the same draft gear as Kadee's "standard" draft gear box, otherwise it'd be very easy to swap one for the other. (BTW, I love your characterization of the B'mann coupler!) 

2) If the "clicking" is in time with the wheel's rotation, there are two possible culprits that I can think of. First, check the counterweights and make sure they're tight on the axles. A small Phillips-head screw into the center of each counterweight should snug them right up. This is "periodic maintenance" on the 2-8-0, unless you want to pull them, loc-tite them, and hope that holds. I just go through with a screwdriver once a season when I oil the valve gear and it holds up. Otherwise, it's likely a hairline fracture in the gear that's clicking whenever it meshes with the idler gear. In that case, it's replacement time. 

2a) You can cut the baker gear out and make a quasi-Stephenson's valve gear. 









It thins it down a bit 








though it's hard to tell on this loco since it was "downsized" to 1:22.5, with narrowed running boards, smaller cab, lower stack and domes, and new tender. 

Or, here's a "what-if" D&RGW "C-20" that I did, and the valve gear doesn't look too out of place at all. 








(BTW, that's the AMS coupler bolted onto the front pilot.) 

3) Easy test - look at the tender. If there are no phosphor-bronze wipers on the tender trucks, it's the later run with the replaced counterweights. They switched to a journal-based power pick-up after they fixed the counterweight issue. Otherwise, hold the drivers firmly in your hand and twist the counterweights. If they move a fair amount, they're likely the old ones. If they only move just the slightest bit, you're in good shape. Look on the box, too. There may be a sticker that says "counterweights replaced" or such on the box. Chances are this late in the game, you've nothing to worry about unless you bought it from someone who's had it sitting around for quite some time. 

4) I'm rebuilding one for my dad right now, and I'm surprised by how well it holds up when measured in 1:20.3. The drivers scale to 40", more or less evenly spaced on the frame. I don't know how close it scales to the D&RGW locos, but it's definitely plausible for a medium 1:20.3 4-6-0. It's on par sizewise with the 2-8-0, albeit skinnier. Put a taller stack on it, perhaps widen the running boards a bit. Some folks have put a larger cab on it, but the stock one scales out well when compared to the cabs on locos that ran on some of the eastern narrow gauge lines (Waynesburg & Washington or the Ohio River & Western.) 

5) I'm not an expert on the D&RGW, so I couldn't tell you the differences between the prototype #455 and #452. The B'mann models will be virtually identical, except perhaps for the pilot (which you can buy separately to get the right one.) Not sure about the tender. I think Bachmann had three versions of the tender; one with a doghouse, one without, then the "post-wreck" tender. 

Good luck with the portable switching layout. I did one a number of years ago on a series of 2' x 4' panels. I took it to one show. It's now been dismantled as a portable railroad, and occupies a wall in my workshop as my test track/too-cold-to-go-outside-and-play railroad. Still gotta weather the rails and ballast, though. Perhaps this winter (though that's what I said last winter.) 

Later, 

K


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## curlyp (Sep 4, 2009)

A local modeler built a large scale time saver, here is a video of it "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mtAqlOhUoY"
Pictures at "http://picasaweb.google.com/classiclantern/SLOMRA#"


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## pcz (May 13, 2010)

Ciao a tutti!

I'm intrested to modify/convert my Bach Annie in Fn3 version as told in point 4 of your message...

Someone can help me with photos or drawing of the original loco to convert?

Thank you for your reply.

Ciao
Pier


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

1.) I was hoping there was an easy solution to the cube art couplers, I wouldn't even replace them if they mated correctly with the AMS couplers. Interestingly enough, I initially thought that the AMS couplers were "wrong" because they were spring-loaded. Until I played with the couplers on a couple of cars out at the Colorado Railroad Museum, and found out the prototypes were spring-loaded, too! 

2.) The clicking is definitely with the wheel rotation, so I'll screw the counterweights in, I've never tightened them, so most likely that's the problem. Although I kind of wonder how much it will run any more since I got my K-27 yesterday! 

2a) No 350: That's EXACTLY what I was looking for! That's perfect! Where's a good source of parts? 


3.) The tender does have the wipers on the tender. I bought it from someone who got it when they first came out and never took it out of the box. I'm planning on running it to death. They are tight, not loose at all, and it runs smoothly... 

4.) I read another thread that shows that a C16 in 1:20.3 is actually narrower than the Bachmann Annie. Nice loco, but they just threw on the Big Hauler Tender. Kind of sucks, the tender will be more work than the loco... Again, I really don't want to strip of the Walschaert's gear, I've been trying to find a pic of a ten wheeler so equipped... I only paid 80 bucks, so it was kind of a project that just popped up! 

5) The D&RGW didn't really care about how locomotives looked, or anything else, if they ran. You can see tons of pics of locos that came out of the shop and the tender wasn't ready, so they got another one. Sometimes not even the same class. I've studied pics of the two side by side, and there are only minor piping differences, some of them rather odd. On one the injectors are angled, the other they're bent into a right angle. What I find appealing about the 452 is that she was painted up with the green boiler paint for a rail fan special in 1940, with silver steps, cylinder heads, tender detailing, etc, and has the backup light on the tender. She also lasted longer on the D&RGW than the 455, and there are shots of her with and without the snow plow. (I live in Colorado after all!). 

What's a good source of decals to change out the numbers and add the three color herald? Any suggestions on removing the factory numbers and heralds? 

pcz: http://members.cox.net/sn3nut/images/Favorite Photos/RGS20.jpg 

The good news is that an anonymous benefactor has provide money for a complete restoration and maintenance costs, and the RGS 20 will run again! 

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1) The prototypes aren't spring loaded, but the pin has a lip on it that opens the knuckle as it comes up, effectively doing the same thing. 

2) Oh, you'll run the 2-8-0 as much. My K-27 is visually "too big" for my railroad, so my 2-8-0 gets a great deal more use. The K-27 gets its fair share of exercise at train shows. 

2a) Not too much in the way of extra parts, really, except some styrene extensions for the tender, extra airtanks on the tender (scrapbox, but Ozark Miniatures has some nice ones) and other details (Trackside Details toolbox on the front pilot, Ozark Miniatures for the class lamps, and an extra air pump on the side from the scrapbox (again, see Ozark Miniatures for a suitable replacement if you want identical airpumps.) Click this link for more photos and a few "unpainted" photos showing where the modifications were made. 

3) If they're tight, they're _most likely_ the new ones. The old ones were noticeably loose out of the box. 

4) The C-16 is a VERY tiny locomotive. Look also at the Bachmann 4-4-0 and 2-6-0, which date from the same era. You'd have a hard time convincing anyone they're actually a larger scale than the B'mann 4-6-0. When it comes to large scale locomotives, I tend to look at them not in terms of what scale is stated on the box (if we're lucky enough to have a scale stated on the box), but how it scales when measured with a 1:20.3 scale ruler. I did a makeover of an LGB mogul (1:22.5) to a 1:20.3 mogul that ended up being _smaller_ than the starting point. 

5) If the differences are only minor like that, then you're home free. Adding the headlight to the tender is simple enough (provided you have the extra headlight). If you wanted to change the piping, that's fairly simple to do, though I think you're the only person who would ever notice (and in all likelihood, the piping probably changed a bit over the years as parts were replaced through maintenance.) I agree--the green boiler with silver accents is an attractive paint scheme; partly the reason mine got a green boiler and silver striping, though the striping and lettering was in the style of the Oahu Railway. 

For decals, Stan Cedarleaf (who advertises here) probably has something that will work already, or can make it for you if he doesn't. As for removing the original lettering and numbering, well, good luck with that. My usual suspects ("Super Clean" brand degreaser, denatured alcohol) didn't make a dent on the white lettering. I ended up using some fine steel wool and rubbing alcohol to at least minimize the lettering, then repainted the tender and cab before applying the decals. Fortunately, Badger's "ModelFlex" Flat Black paint is actually not very flat at all, but a nice satin/gloss that closely matches the Bachmann paint and provides a great surface for decals. (And once weathered beneath a healthy dose of D&RGW grime, impossible to tell the difference.) On the wood cab, you're at even more of an advantage since you can use some heavier-duty abrasives and just sand with the grain of the wood to remove the lettering. 

BTW, which part of Colorado? 

@ Pier, try clicking here. This is Jack Thompson's 4-6-0 "upscale" he did a while back that--sadly--has since been scrapped. Jack made a slightly taller cab in addition to raising the smokestack, but that's the only major physical additions that he did to it. 

Later, 

K


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert, 

A great source for decals (especially custom decals) is Stan Cedarleaf, "Cedarleaf Custom Decals". Great man to work with and he does excellent work.


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Nov 2010 10:08 AM 

@ Pier, try clicking here. This is Jack Thompson's 4-6-0 "upscale" he did a while back that--sadly--has since been scrapped. Jack made a slightly taller cab in addition to raising the smokestack, but that's the only major physical additions that he did to it. 

Note: I also shortened the smoke box by about half, changed the headlight and narrowed the stance of the pilot truck (brought the wheels closer together.)


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I've always been kind of mystified as to why Bachmann hasn't done the C-16's in 1:20.3 yet. 

I live in Thornton, north of 120th. I haven't actually built a layout yet, so it will be centered around using the K-27 - and my collection of AMS cars. I also have a Bachmann tanker, and a Warrior Run flat car. Which is actually rather huge as well. 

Ah, the joys of weathering, I've never really been very good at it... 

BTW, can anybody give me any hints on using CDS transfers? I've never successfully managed to use transfers on anything... 

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm in Centennial, out by Quincy Reservoir. If your travels take you down this way, let me know. 

I'd rather Bachmann do a C-19--something equally popular on the Colorado railroads, and also used on the East Broad Top. I know Accucraft did one, but if I took a razor saw to a $3K locomotive, I'd hate to think what the divorce would cost me. 

Weathering's pretty easy, once you get the hang of it. Again, if you ever want me to show you some techniques, just let me know. I almost always have something on the workbench that's in need of a proper coating of grime. (As opposed to my workbench itself which is perennially under a proper coating of clutter). 

CDS lettering is a rub-down process. They haven't been made in a number of years, and I'd be concerned that anything still out on the market may be getting "stale." The adhesive has a limited shelf life. The good stuff is measured in 10s of years, but some of the Woodland Scenics lettering sets I've used go south in a year. They just won't stick to anything you try to set them to once the adhesive goes. 

Using rub-down lettering (when the adhesive is good) is pretty simple. Cut out the lettering from the sheet, place the sheet over the car where you want the lettering to go, and burnish the sheet with a dull pencil or "back" end of a paintbrush or something like that. Press down firmly, going over the lettering once or twice, then gently peel away the plastic carrier sheet. You'll be left with the lettering on the car. You really don't need to seal it; I've got cars that get handled regularly that have transfers from 20 years ago. You can also gently sand away some of the lettering to make it look weathered: 










If you can't tell, it's my favorite kind of lettering to work with. Unfortunately, the EPA has pretty much outlawed the chemicals involved in their production, so you pretty much have to go to Canada to get them produced. They're not cheap, but if you do a bunch of cars on a sheet, you can get the per-car cost down to something pretty reasonable (especially given the time it takes to do dry transfers as opposed to decals. Dry transfers - paint just dry to the touch? Add transfers and you're done. Decals - wait at least 24 hours for paint to dry, apply decals, wait 24 hours for decals to dry, hope there's no silvering or other issues, clearcoat, hope that doesn't mess up the decal film, repair or replace decal if it does... ugh!) Again, if you'd like an impromptu clinic at some point, just drop me a note. 

@ Jack, I'm still bummed you scrapped that one!!! 

Later, 

K


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Robert, 
I have 4 of the connies and encountered the same clicking sound on one of them. It was the compound gear in the gear box. You can 
get the replacement gears from B-man. 
Rodney


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

EBT, thanks for the invite! I'll definitely take you up on it, I'm off work on Tues, Wed, and Thursdays, but I work weekends. 

Yeah, I think I'll get the Connie up on the kitchen table and see if I can figure out where the click is coming from. 

I ran the K-27 for the first time yesterday, and it was quite loud, lots of noise on the low end, and it seemed the wheels started turning before the running gear kicked in. This was especially noticeable when reversing direction. When grabbing the counterweights, it seems they turned about 1/4" in either direction? 

Robert


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Robert, 
You can get the replacement counterweights from B-man or you can take them off and use pieces of brass to shim 
between the flat on the axle and the counterweights. I have 6 K-27s. Had the counterweight issues on 2 of them and 
put the the replacements on one and shimmed the other. The shimmed one is tighter than the replacements. 
BTW I'm taking a unlettered 455 and making it black 452. 

Rodney


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## pcz (May 13, 2010)

Thank you Robert, EBT and Jack!

Now I know what is my next homework









Pier


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Pier Carlo, 
Check that you do have the older version before ordering new counterweights. 
The easiest way to tell for sure, is, if the tender trucks do *NOT* have wiper contacts, it is definitely fitted with the later counterweights. 
If it does have wipers it may or may not have been fitted with the replacement weights. 

The drive wheels are a bit sloppy when compared to the counterweights. 
That is normal. 
There should be very little, if any slop between the counterweights on each side of each axle. They should all be like the drive gear axle.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

hello 
i have a Connie that is new with the wipers i have had her for a few years , how do i get the new counter wts., do i just call bman? 
thank you


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

The counterweights are needed for the K-27, not the Connie. I called Bman today, they said that since I don't have a receipt (I bought it from a friend), that I'd have to pay $24 for them. Anybody got a link to the shim method? 

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I ran the K-27 for the first time yesterday, and it was quite loud, lots of noise on the low end, and it seemed the wheels started turning before the running gear kicked in. This was especially noticeable when reversing direction. When grabbing the counterweights, it seems they turned about 1/4" in either direction? 
When you say "loud," gear grinding loud or some other sound. There is a fan inside that supposedly is there to cool the engine (?) but by most accounts seems to do nothing but draw air in through the smokestack, thus effectively wiping out the benefits of the smoke unit. You may hear that kick in before the wheels start moving. (I just took the fan out. No problems running.) There's going to be a bit of play in the drive between the gears turning and the counterweights due to the way the axles themselves are engineered. The gears actually turn a sleeve through which the axle passes and can move laterally. This is how Bachmann got the loco to fit around a 4' radius curve. (Accucraft used blind drivers on the #2 and #3 axles.) There's going to be a bit of play between the gears and the drivers. Where you don't want a lot play is between the drivers themselves and the counterweights. If you can hold the drivers firmly still and rotate the counterweights 1/4", then they're the old, loose ones. On mine, I can turn the counterweights maybe 1/16" while holding the drivers still. 

Dave Goodson developed and posted the shim fix online, though I don't remember where. Personally, $24 ain't a bad price considering there's no labor beyond unscrewing the drive rods, unscrewing the old counterweights, and screwing the new ones back on. I did that on a friend's K, and it took all of 15 minutes. Note: you only have to replace the counterweights on three axles. The driven axle (axle #3) is good regardless of which "version." 

Robert, I work evenings, so I'm usually home in the mornings. 

Later, 

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I kind of mispoke, actually. The counterweights have about a 1/4 turn of play, not a 1/4". It kind of surprised me that they wanted a receipt to supply the counterweights, but I suppose that's fair.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

With a bit of creative juggling of the fan mounting screws, it is possible to turn the fan over and remount it so that it sucks air from underneath the loco and blows it out of the smoke stack. 
Result. Copious smoke instead of zero smoke. 
Just be careful with the screw lengths when replacing the inverted fan.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Can you just reverse the wires?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

No. They are DC fans with in built diode protection.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By pcz on 08 Nov 2010 12:29 AM 
Thank you Robert, EBT and Jack!

Now I know what is my next homework









Pier
There were a couple of other Ten Wheelers, #22 and #25 that were sisters to #20, and could be modelled also. They just aren't as "famous" since #20 is still "alive" and about to run again.

Robert


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I ended up pretty much rebuilding the Annie. Since I was doing so much work on it, I decided to replace the drive with one from BBT. I did keep the valve gear, cylinders and a few other parts, but changed about everything else.








The domes are from Accucraft. The boiler is a 3" OD styrene tube. Stack is just a styrene tube.


I ended up building my own cab from styrene









I did not like the tender at all. I kept a few parts, but basically built a brand new one.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

That's an excellent looking tender, how did you do the rivets on it?


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks.

I used a riveter tool from Micro-Mark. I emboss rivets into the back of thin styrene sheets. This is then glued in place on top of the thicker sheets that form the tender.









I also bought the table that helps space them evenly as well as a set of dies for different size rivets.

I like the results.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Nov 2010 01:13 PM 
I'm in Centennial, out by Quincy Reservoir. If your travels take you down this way, let me know. 

I just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about your generous offer, and I plan on taking you up on it, probably early next year! Still working on the K, we now have QSI sound installed - and working very well, quite impressive, for a guy like me that started modelling in the 70's with Mantua/Tyco HO steam. I think they made the boilers out of melted down cannonballs!

Next, I need to work on the renumbering, tri colored herald, backup light, and silver striping on the running boards and tender bottom and the piston ends. I'm trying to figure out how to do that without disassembling the whole darn model...

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The silver striping will be easy. ModelFlex makes a good silver that can easily be brushed on and dries very evenly. That way you don't need to mask anything. Or you can go to the craft store (Michael's, JoAnn's, etc.) and get a silver paint pen. I've commandeered my wife's. I don't' recommend the pen for the cylinder covers, but certainly for the running boards and other lining it will work well. As for renumbering, the hardest part will be getting the old lettering off. I haven't found anything that makes a dent in the white paint that Bachmann uses, so I ended up going the "brute force" route with some denatured alcohol and some steel wool to take the edges off the lettering, then repainting the cab and tender. For this, I got some ModelFlex "Flat Black" paint. Despite the name, it's not flat. It actually has a nice gloss to it. Since it brushes on so well, I didn't bother to airbrush it. That gave me a good, smooth black on which to put the decals. Can't help you on the lettering itself, but check with Stan Cedarleaf. 

Later, 

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

The lettering, I think, is actually OK and I was just going to keep it intact. All I really need to do is paint over the herald - and then cover the patched over herald with the tri-colored one. Then I need the new numbers, and I thought I could just mask off that square on the cab, and it sounds like the ModelFlex will do just fine to cover the old numbers. 

I also wanted to add the number to the back of the tender, if I can find a good picture. I might also add the markers on the rear of the tender... 

Robert


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