# Battery/DCC Cost Question



## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

I realize this is a hot debate, not trying to start it all over again. I'm looking for a specific analysis. I plan to run a couple of trains, maybe 3 or 4 not ten. So I am assuming I will need some type of individual control system. I read that battery power offers an advantage in this respect and I think the cost is mitigated since either way I would have to install some type of control system in my engines. Battery also seems to offer me the advantage of going with different track materials and not having to worry so much about electrical connections (another maintenance issue). 

I have LGB engines with no control systems installed. I would need to convert them to battery or install the control system if I leave it electric. Can someone give me an estimate of the costs involved to convert one engine to either? Right now I only have the original LGB transformer, so I would need a new DCC controller or remote controller with a battery system.

Basically I'm looking to see which would be more cost effective considering I'm starting from scratch, need to install some type of control system in either case and also in terms of maintenance. If I'm missing any advantages or disadvantages associated with either please let me know.

Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

4 locos is right about where the balance tips. 

cost per loco needs some information, sound or not? and if so, how good do you want the sound to be? 

Greg


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Sound is not that important... so I can do with basic or no sound. I'm more interested in visual and operation. To be honest, I just like "playing" with the trains with my daughter and watching them run around.

Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Look at Del Tappero's system for basic, simple to use remote control. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/gscalegraphics_2_005.htm 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

For uber-basic control, Del's (G Scale Graphics) Pocket RailBoss pushbutton system works pretty well. We use his three-button system out at the Colorado RR museum line, but he's got a new 6-button system out now. The biggest drawback of this system is that there's no visual feedback on the transmitter letting you know what direction you're going, or how much throttle you're giving the locomotive. The lack of visual feedback is the biggest gripe I hear from operators out at the museum, especially new ones trying to figure out how to run their trains on the layout. Once you get the hang of it, it's fine, and I ran my trains using a similar pushbutton controller for more than 10 years just fine. Cordless Renovations has their "RailLinx" system which also uses pushbuttons. I'm not familiar enough with that to recommend it or not. 

A step up from that would be the digital proportional systems from Del or Tony Walsham (RCS of Australia). These systems use common 2-stick 2.4gHz R/C transmitters and receivers. Still pretty basic, and relatively inexpensive. The 2-stick controllers can get a bit bulky to carry around, but that's what I started using when I first went battery power, and what I use now to run my live steamers. I prefer smaller controllers you can hold in one hand, but at the same time, I carry mine around for an hour or so at a time when running my steamers, so what's the gripe? 

Next up the function food chain would be Aristo's Revolution control system. The transmitter (in my opinion) is superior to basic pushbutton controllers in that there's an LCD screen that tells you direction and throttle settings. Motor control is very good, and the receivers come with sound built in, so whether you use it or not, you've got some semblance of basic sound. 

The cost per loco on all of these systems will be about the same (average $90-ish per loco) depending on which system you choose and who you buy it from. The transmitters vary in cost. The key fob transmitters Del uses run from $50 to $90; the 2.4 gHz controllers can be had from as low as $25 to $150. The Aristo controller comes in a transmitter/receiver set that will set you back around $270 - $300 or so (around $190 for the transmitter). The transmitter is a one-time cost if you're only going to have one person running. If multiple operators are desired, multiple transmitters are needed. 

The top of the food chain goes to Airwire and QSI in terms of the level of control for motor and sound (and--not surprisingly--also cost.) The Airwire receivers will set you back around $140 give or take (motor and light control only), and while the G-wire receiver that works with the QSI decoder is only $100, the QSI decoder is an additional $200. (But you get motor, light _and_ very good sound control.) The Airwire boards will give you very nice motor and sound control, but you've then got to add sound (Phoenix is most common, for an additional $160 or so.) So, both of these systems will set you back about triple the price per loco for wireless receiver, motor and sound control. It's _far_ from "basic," though, so it's worth it if you want that level of control, it's not worth it if you don't care about it. 

Batteries will run you around $40 per locomotive for a 14.8volt, 2.6 amp/hour Lithium Ion battery pack. That should be sufficient to run your locos for around 3 - 4 hours on a charge. If the locos are small, you may have to get a bit "creative' in terms of where to put the batteries, or go with a dedicated trail car if there's absolutely no room. (They'll fit in most cabs, but you'll be able to see them.) That's a per-loco charge if you cannot make the batteries removable, or maybe buy two or three packs for your whole fleet if you can remove them and never run more than one or two locos at once. The charger is a one-time expense, but $25 will get you an appropriate charger than can charge these packs in about 90 minutes. You can buy two and not break the bank. 

You're going to need probably about $10 worth of electronic components--charge jack, power switch, fuse, battery connectors) for each loco you do. 

In terms of ongoing maintenance of battery power, the only thing is that you will likely have to replace your battery packs once in a while. "They" say you can expect Li-Ion packs to last about 5 years. I've got three packs that are getting close to that point, but still give me stellar performance. Ask me this time next year how they're doing. But--again--if you've only got a few locos or a few battery packs, that's a manageable cost. Quite honestly, I was changing battery chemistries once every 6 or 7 years anyway (and replacing batteries once every 2 - 3 years as well), so it's actually less of a cost concern now than it was before. 

Hopefully that gives you some direction to at least start looking. Feel free to come back with any questions. It's mind-boggling at first, but once you're able to get a better handle on how you want to run your trains, and what--specifically--you want to control, it gets easier to pare down the list of options. The amount of physical work to install the most basic vs. the most complex system doesn't change all that much, except perhaps for wiring the bells, whistles, and lights. 

Later, 

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

My biggest concern with controlling trains now is how long will the system be available so that in 10 years I can add control to another new engine purchase. 
I had the Aristocraft 27 mhz system and now it is out of production as is the 75 mhz system. 
So, I no longer trust a single source of electronics, thus I went with DCC for future expansions. 
I have an older LGB MTS system, low end of the DCC capabilities, but it works. 
Also I have the Zimo system which is awesome. 
There are many manufacturers of decoders and also command stations so if one or two disappear, no harm done.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan has a valid point regarding product obsolescence, but I should point out that there is no availability and continuity of supply like there is for multi channel 2.4 GHz R/C. There are dozens of brands and for our purposes they all work exactly the same way and they are generally low cost. 
To compliment this steady supply of R/C equipment for battery R/C there are dozens of makers of suitable ESC's. Some are pretty basic but a little bit of web searching will uncover ESC's that can do many of the things DCC systems can do such as proper proportional speed control, directional lights, speed matching, MU'ing, controllable inertia and at least 4 sound triggers. 
There are often plenty of spare channels that can use the servo driven Kadee uncouplers. 

The only real down point is the size of the TX. I must admit it is a bit bulky, but I can assure you, that like Kevin, you soon get used to them. Anyway, that is going to change soon with the imminent availability of a cigarette pack size DSM2 compatible TX Handpiece with a knob for speed control and switch for direction change.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... DCC is much more compatible and long lived than proprietary control systems and even the old model airplane stuff. You can buy a system today that runs both the earliest and newest DCC locos. 

Personally, I run DCC for all the options of who I can buy from and the cost per loco... if you go above 4 locos, it's been proven over and over you will come out ahead with a track power system. 

Greg


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Wow great stuff guys thanks. It's overwhelming. The last thing I want to do is settle on a system and find out its not what I want later one and have to start over. Sound is really not an issue but I could possibly see going over four locos at some point in the future if I really get hooked. 

If I solder the track connections and use concrete roadbeds, can I effectively limit the amount of maintenance? Other than some cosmetic ballast and maybe some repairs from my dogs, I'm thinking there shouldn't be anything else if I go electric track power? 

I bought used LGB stuff from my friend. I have four locos right now and have another in mind. Not planning to run all at once but be nice to have that ability if I wanted.

The costs seem reasonable with battery, I guess a little less with track power but more initial work in soldering everything?

I really need to decide on the roadbed and track type before winter. I would like to lay a test circle and see how it holds up over winter.

I will have some very specific questions once I get started but for now I'm just researching and trying to learn.

Does anyone live in the northern NJ or southern NY area that would be willing to show me their layout? Even eastern PA would do i'll drive up to an hour or so.

Jim


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Another option, just to muddy the water a little bit, is a remote control unit between your power supply and the track. You can double or more head with similar locomotives. I can run LGB ABA units, or a USAt ABA lash ups. What I cannot do is run two separate trains. I do have three battery, RC, engines that I use mostly as guest engines on other layouts. At home I use a Bridgewerks remote. It has a 4 button key fob for control, on/off, increase speed, decrease speed, and reverse. It meets all of my requirements. Aristo used to have a similar type of unit. I'm not sure what they now have. I can control the train from inside the house with the Bridgewerks unit. I'm away from home now, but it is either a Ul or UR-15, if my memory is any good, which it probably isn't. It is not inexpensive, about $250, but it is an excellent unit and made in America. Chuck. PS. Some of us recommend running on analog DC for a while before you jump in to other options. A little running experience will help direct you to which option may be best for you. By all means try to find a local club or group in your area. It is far better to visit and ask questions directly. There is no single system that is ideal for everyone, they all have advantages and disadvantages. It all depends upon your specific railroad and what you expect to do with it.


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## NSengineer (Aug 13, 2013)

well, Im brand new at this. Although Im been modeling HO for over 30 years. I also love the dcc operation. 
I have a couple of questions. Im not really looking for the cheapest route, but rather the most reliable. 
Which is better, track power of battery pack? 
Can I use DCC with battery packs? 
can units be MUed with battery packs? 
thanks, 
Scott


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Your criteria being different, you should start your own thread with your own specific problem to solve. 

The OP (original poster) of the thread is asking a very specific question about a specific situation (and states this). 

Your question is different. 

(the word reliable needs to be quantified) 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Which is better, track power of battery pack? 
That is a _very_ loaded question (much akin to "Ford vs. Chevy," "Tastes Great vs. Less Filling," "Mac vs. PC," etc.). Wars have been fought over that question. The answer lies more in how you want to run your trains, and how many you want to run at the same time than anything else (including cost). Lots of locomotives or really long trains lend themselves to track power. Fewer locos at once, or multiple operators each running their own locos individually; battery power may be more advantageous. Many other factors, too. More and more, however, ease of installation and the functions available to the user are becoming less of a determining factor. The locomotive and control manufacturers have worked to make the installation of advanced control systems of a variety of flavors pretty straightforward. 

Can I use DCC with battery packs? 
Yes, but you need to equip each locomotive with a wireless receiver since there's no central command station. QSI and Airwire are currently the only two manufacturers who make such receivers. QSI's is designed to interface specifically with their Titan (or older Quantum) decoders. Airwire's primary receiver (currently the G3) is a receiver and motor-control decoder all in one board. It also does lights and smoke. It does not do sound, though there's a DCC output on the board which will drive a DCC sound decoder. Airwire also just released a wireless receiver called the "Convertr" which is _just_ a wireless receiver that outputs a DCC signal to any generic DCC motor or motor/sound decoder. It's rated at 2.5 amps, so it's probably not going to be the best option for all but small locomotives or critters. (I've got one in an RGS Goose connected to a Soundtraxx Tsunami.) You must also use Airwire's (or NCE's G-wire) wireless handheld throttles. 

can units be MUed with battery packs? 
They can. You'd consist the decoders in each locomotiive as you would two locos running under "traditional" track DCC. Each loco would have its own wireless receiver and decoder. If you're doing an A-B set that's always going to run together, you _can_ use one battery pack and one decoder to feed both locomotives, though it's still better to (at least) have individual decoders in each locomotive so not to draw too much current through one decoder. You can get high-amperage decoders, though, for such high-current applications if you wanted to use just one decoder. Just be careful not to exceed the current rating of the decoder. It's always better to err on the side of caution where possible. 

Welcome to MLS. 

Later, 

K


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## lasupport (Jun 10, 2012)

Im not sure if this is the right place to ask this question. My 3 year old loves trains. He is autistic and sometimes he sits for hours watching the train. I constructed a very basic layout in the back yard this summer and i will make something bigger and permament next year. However the biggest pain in the butt is running the extension cord and hooking up the transformer then taking it down. ive been looking at an LGB battery powered remote controlled locomotive. and also a playmobil G scale battery trainset. I have never seen these in operation and my 3 year old could care less about noise, quality and pulling power but I do!! If anyone has has any experience with these locomotives i would like to hear your opinions. Ive also done some searching around here to convert a LGB stainz loco from track power to remote but the info is kinda hard to decipher. Is there a step by step thread on how to convert? thx. 

Im leaning more towards the playmobil set. heres the one im looking at. http://www.ebay.com/itm/231022144658?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh, another post on a different subject tied on the end of an existing thread. 

You should start a new topic if you have a new topic. 

But I'm sure Kevin knows the answer...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I certainly agree that it's best practice to start a new topic with a new question, as you'll attract a better variety of responses from those who may otherwise skip the original thread. Alas, the forum software does not allow us moderators to move single posts to a new topic once a question has been asked in an existing thread so it can get better exposure. So we have no choice but to leave the question where it lies and answer if we so desire. This being the "beginner's forum," we have to expect that this is where many new members come to post questions they may have, so I'm inclined to cut them a little slack and go ahead and answer if I can. 

(Mod hat off.) 

Anyway, the Playmobil set can be seen *here*. I've got one of their earlier sets (the passenger train), and my kids love it. Tons of play value, and the plastic track is easy to assemble if you don't already have the brass track in the back yard to run it on. Very easy to control, but drinks batteries for breakfast. Rechargable NiMH batteries are probably a good idea (or a Sam's Club/Costco membership). The LGB battery powered set looks very nice. I've seen one running at a local train show, but I didn't get a chance to try the throttle. Around Christmas time, you'll probably find an array of cheap R/C train sets at Toys R Us as well. I got two of these for my kids last Christmas. The locomotives aren't nearly as robust, but the cars have lots of play value, and the price is right ($60 for the whole set!). It's worth that just for the four or so cars that come with the sets, regardless of the locomotive. The coupers are compatible with the Playmobil couplers, so you can run them together--though the Playmobil cars are heavier. 

I'd personally hold off on converting a Stainz until your son is a few years older. I gave my son an old LGB diesel whose motor had died so it can free-wheel when he was 3, and--while LGB's stuff is definitely durable, it's not "3-year-old-pushing-around-the-back-yard-railroad" proof. The Playmobil stuff has fewer breakable parts. 

Welcome, and--again--don't be bashful about starting new topics with your questions! 

Later, 

K


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, going back to the original question. Battery conversion costs also depend upon whether you can do it or you need to hire someone to convert the engine? I know folks that will do it for about $150-200 per engine. The battery pack has many variables, but starting at $90-140 is probably right (voltage, amp hours, size, etc.); then you have the controller and encoder (I like Airwire) and that is another $145 plus $90. Throw in a sound card and you probably have another $180... So, if you add that all together, you can spend a cool $600-700 to pay someone to convert an engine. 

I think I would agree with some of the other suggestions and really decide on how much you want to "play" or get involved with this. Oh, I forgot the smart charger for the battery pack. If you have some relatively inexpensive Stainz or other LGB engines, you might want to really think hard and long about who you are doing this for.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Battery conversion costs also depend upon whether you can do it or you need to hire someone to convert the engine? 
You've got the same issues with a DCC install, though. There's not a whole lot of difference beyond where to fit the batteries, charging jack, and on/off switch. There may be a slight cost difference between installing DCC vs. battery, but that depends on who's doing the installation. I've never priced it myself, as I do all my own. When I've done work for others, I've not yet had a situation where I could justify charging extra for battery power. I could see doing so where you'd need to do major work to fit the battery, but for most locos, there's ample room and the work to install the batteries is no more than what you do just to install the DCC control. You're cutting and splicing all the same wires. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a lot easier to install DCC just based on less volume in the engine, no external charging jacks or hatches to remove batteries, or external programming jacks, or external volume controls, or trigger magnets and on and on. 

WAY more wiring for battery. 

(Kevin, you KNOW this) 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

My gripe with batteries is the limited life. Maybe you can get 5 years on Li-ion, but what if you totally ignore the packs for 7+ months at a time? Then how long would you expect? Furthermore, it seems that the less you use batteries, the shorter their lives.

My beef with Nicads is that they then refuse to take a proper charge. I'm not so sure with NiMH or Li-ion.

Also, if I only run my trains only a 3-6 days a year, the cost per run for batteries is outrageous! I'd be replacing them every 20 or so days of actual running!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

_"It's a lot easier to install DCC just based on less volume in the engine," _ 
There's plenty of "volume" (space) in most any locomotive given the small size of receivers and batteries these days. I just did a full battery R/C install in a Berlyn RGS #6 work goose. Everything's below the deck between the frame except the battery, which is easily disguised as a 3" x 3" x 1" crate in the payload area of the goose. (I was hoping to get away with an 11.1 volt battery, but the thing is geared such that I need 14.8 to get to a scale 20 mph.) I even installed a track/battery switch hidden in one of the toolboxes so I can run the goose on battery powered- or track-powered DCC. To borrow an old phrase, "size doesn't matter." Miniaturization has been wonderful! 

_...no external charging jacks or hatches to remove batteries, _ 
Well, sure... you've got to drill holes in the floor (wall, wherever inconspicuous) for a power switch and charging jack. Forgive me if I don't really view that as being anything significant. If you want to go battery, you drill a few extra holes, or--even better--the manufacturers are now making removable coal loads and convenient access hatches, so they've done the work for you! 

_...or external programming jacks, or external volume controls, or trigger magnets and on and on..._ 
Er, those exist in track-powered DCC environments, too, all depending on the needs of the particular decoder you're using. Phoenix's need for a programming jack doesn't go away if you're using it via track-powered DCC. Even QSI recommends a magnetic reed switch placed somewhere on the locomotive for volume control, factory resets and other purposes. Chuff triggers are not mandatory in either circle. Even the obsolete Soundtraxx Sierra has the option for voltage-controlled chuff. I've heard good things about the QSI Titan's revised automatic chuff, but since that operates by both battery and track, that doesn't support any argument that DCC is less work to install. (That, and it integrates with Bachmann's optical chuff triggers seamlessly, so the manufacturer has already done that bit of wiring for you.) I don't know what you'd use other "trigger magnets" for, unless you're triggering sounds via track magnets. Not many folks who run advanced control systems do that, so that's not really a consideration. (And--again--if the DCC decoder is capable of external triggers for sounds, then--if you want to use them--you've got to run the wires.) 

_"WAY more wiring for battery?" _ 
Sorry, can't agree there. The complexity of any advanced control system is dependent upon the level of control you want to place on the locomotive. There's simply no significant difference in the work required when powering the decoder from the track vs. from a battery. Yeah, you've got to add a power switch. So what. (Technically, you need a means of disconnecting the battery, so a power switch could consist of simply unplugging the battery from the pig-tail sticking out of the back of the locomotive.) That's pretty inconsequential, and if you _are_ squeamish about that, you can get one of G-Scale Graphics "Battery Conversion Modules" that has the power switch, fuse, and charging jack all pre-wired on a singe PC board for you. Two sets of screw terminals for battery in and power out to the decoder--about as simple as it gets. The "real work" of any installation comes downstream of the decoder. How do you connect the motors, lights, smoke, etc., and to what extent do you want to control them? That's what varies significantly from locomotive to locomotive, system to system, and individual preference to individual preference. 

Plug-and-play interfaces make the conversion to either camp even easier. We both can use the same Titan decoder in the same Aristo locomotive. I've got to have the G-wire receiver plugged into mine. That's the _only_ difference between our two installations. You set your loco on the track, turn on the power to your command station, and make sure the "Track/Battery" switch on the loco is set to "Track." I set my loco on the track and plug a battery into the pig-tail on the back of the loco, and make sure the "Track/Battery" switch is set to "Battery." We're both off and running with the identical amount of control, with no more or less work relative to one another. This has been the major push of manufacturers for quite some time--to make it easy to install aftermarket control systems of any flavor. Airwire's got their USA "Drop-In" boards, and just released their own plug-and-play adapter board. No one's going to use this stuff--regardless of flavor--if it's a bugger to install. So you make it dead-nuts-simple to install regardless of where the electrons are coming from, and your customers are happy. 

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. The R/C control electronics were large, and the batteries even larger. "Fitting everything in" was the primary challenge even in a moderate-sized locomotive. We didn't have the capability for on-board DCC control, and there were no "plug-and-play" sockets. Today's a whole new ballgame. It's no longer black and white. The two camps are fast converging, and the manufacturers--both locomotive and electronics--are working hard to make it ever easier to do so. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There are so many variables. 
Start with locale. 
If you have freezing weather, where your frost line is down a ways, burying wiring in ballast and connecting to floating track isn't a good idea. 
Example: 
Local fella who thumbed his nose at all of us battery guys, laid his floating tack in ballast, wires to switch machines and rail in the ballast. Rained. Rained some more. Rained a bit more. Then froze...and froze..and froze hard. 
Locked the wires in the ballast and heaved. 
Ripped every wire off the track and switch machines. 
Fixable? 
Yes. 

Type of soil. We have a very acidic soil. 20+ years ago, when I started the CCRy, I did LGB track and track power. For two months. 
That is all it took for the electrolysis to eat through the LGB joiners......and clean the brass every time....and clean the LGB switch machines out every other time. 

Cost of track. 
To be effective on any track-fed system in non-temperate climes, you need NS or Stainless. 
Cost per foot? 
I use aluminium, always have since I gave up track power outdoors for good. 

Booster districts. Requiring power feeds to and from. 

What I have done is all aluminium (cheaper) track, zero track power outdoors, all track screwed to something, plates, stakes....no heave, no shifting, I can run the track along the edge of a cliff without worrying about it settling and dumping a train in the canyon. 
I have manual switch controls, except for two air operated ones in obtuse locations. 

I know a guy who insisted on NS track for his indoor railroad....visions of computer control of trains. I tried to talk him out of it. Told him for the additional cost, he could convert the rest of his locos to battery r/c. 

Several years later, he called me up...not happy. Why hadn't I tried harder to talk him out of NS rail? 

I have a friend.....talked to him a couple of weeks ago...he'd visited a dcc railroad.....talked to the owner (who is a strong dcc promoter) at the far end of the railroad...just the two of them...and the owner confided if he had it to do all over again, he would never do dcc outdoors, as it's just too much work. 
Non temperate climate. 

We have run our railroad through 4 or 5 power outages. One lasted five days. We could run trains. Had enough charged up we never ran out of power. 
I refuse to use 787 batteries. My old NiCads can and do go 8-12 years. NiMH not quite as long, but I consider it maintenance...like changing the oil in your car. 
I do not clean my rails. We use a shop vac to blow the debris off before a run. I'm still using all the original ME aluminium railed track I started with, with a handful of about 8 pieces taken out for line relocation or different switches. 

You don't have to worry about flaking driver plating. Nor plating wearing down through the copper, which requires much cleaning with any track powered control. 
I remember a dcc promoter told me years ago, when I still talked to him, that before an operating session, they remove every locomotive from the rails, clean the pickups, then the wheels. Then they clean the track. And, once they started running, the performance continuously degraded as wheels and pickups collected dirt. 

I love it when my plating goes away, as my tractive effort increases dramatically. 
Example: 
My original BachShay, first one out of TrainWorld from first shipment.....28-34 loads unassisted up 150' of 4% grade. Drivers worn to pot metal. 
New drivers (did that once), 12 max, lots of wheelslip. 
Dry weather....wet weather all bets are off, and helpers are the name of the game. 
We don't do consisting or speed matching, altho we have on occasion run two locos from one handpiece. Like for snowplow or passenger runs (12 mixed LGB and Bach passenger cars on 150' of 4% required two LGB Moguls....) 

It's your call. 
Just have spare parts so if your decoder smokes, your booster dies, your control station dies, you can get it running again. 

Many years ago, Herb Chaudiere of CRANIS Garden Railway fame, long time GR contributor....died. 
Went to his memorial service. 
Towards the end, one of the operators on the CRANIS came to me and said they wanted to have a wake at Herb's railroad, let it run one last time. 
Good, go for it! 
It won't run. It ran two weeks ago (before Herb died). 
I spent an hour and a half on my stomach, soldering iron, solder, wire, screwdriver....we'd get one section running, trains would stop. I ran over, plopped down, held a screwdriver to the side of the rails to bridge the gap until the train had gone past. 
The wires that bridged the joint had corroded away. I'd solder a new jumper, go to the next one. 
If you can solder the wire, it will corrode. If it won't corrode, you can't solder it. 

I would never, as in ever, in this climate and soil, do any type of track power out of doors. 
Personal opinion...based upon observed fact. 

TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I suppose everyone's decision tree is different, but one of the "basic-level" deciding points for me was not having to clean the rails. I kept having this vision of an elderly me on his not-so-functional knees, draggin' myself around the layout with a bag of Tuffy Pads...









So, I figured, either rail power with non-oxidizing rail, or battery. SS and NS seemed too expensive for me, but the nickle-plated brass was a good deal. And it's really held up; the plating is tough as nails.


===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I see a lot of words in response.

Still easier based on available volume, and don't neglect speaker space. Less wires.

You admitted you have to drill holes... also you DO have to solder wires to them! (your are not forgiven







... every little bit adds up to more work)

External programming jacks are NOT normally used on DCC... come on, you are writing a 6 part series on DCC and you claim this? I cannot under the disparity between your statementHave you been under a rock? Only old sound board designs need an external programming jack... all MODERN DCC is programmed through the rails! The QSI magnet (which I NEVER use) is anywhere INSIDE the body with no hole. COME ON Kevin!

It's just plain easier to put a single board in a loco than 2 boards (the only viable single board R/C solution with sound is the Revo)

It's just plain easier to not to have to find space for batteries.

It's just plain easier not having charging jacks, external programming, volume up down switch, hatch for batteries, etc. You are ignoring the drilling, placement, volume and wiring for all this junk that you don't need with MODERN DCC...

You have lots of words trying to fight a losing battle.

Greg




Posted By East Broad Top on 26 Aug 2013 11:37 AM 
_"It's a lot easier to install DCC just based on less volume in the engine," _ 
There's plenty of "volume" (space) in most any locomotive given the small size of receivers and batteries these days.(ahh no speaker??) I just did a full battery R/C install in a Berlyn RGS #6 work goose. Everything's below the deck between the frame except the battery, which is easily disguised as a 3" x 3" x 1" crate in the payload area of the goose. (I was hoping to get away with an 11.1 volt battery, but the thing is geared such that I need 14.8 to get to a scale 20 mph.) I even installed a track/battery switch hidden in one of the toolboxes so I can run the goose on battery powered- or track-powered DCC. To borrow an old phrase, "size doesn't matter." Miniaturization has been wonderful! (no sound?) (nice example of low speed low current motor that can use small batteries... definitely NOT a representative example of the average installation)

_...no external charging jacks or hatches to remove batteries, _ 
Well, sure... you've got to drill holes in the floor (wall, wherever inconspicuous) for a power switch and charging jack. Forgive me if I don't really view that as being anything significant. (not forgiven, extra work and extra wiring and extra space, you just dismiss those facts with "forgive me"?, dismissal of reality not accepted) If you want to go battery, you drill a few extra holes, or--even better--the manufacturers are now making removable coal loads and convenient access hatches, so they've done the work for you! (ask TOC about water getting into top of loco through coal load)

_...or external programming jacks, or external volume controls, or trigger magnets and on and on..._ 
Er, those exist in track-powered DCC environments, too, all depending on the needs of the particular decoder you're using. (NO!!! only old junk does this) Phoenix's need for a programming jack doesn't go away if you're using it via track-powered DCC. Even QSI recommends a magnetic reed switch placed somewhere on the locomotive for volume control, factory resets and other purposes. (Yep, old stuff, the ONLY example left in the market... you make your entire point on one old manufacturer!) Chuff triggers are not mandatory in either circle. Even the obsolete Soundtraxx Sierra has the option for voltage-controlled chuff. I've heard good things about the QSI Titan's revised automatic chuff, but since that operates by both battery and track, that doesn't support any argument that DCC is less work to install. (last 3 sentences are non-operational, what is the point?) (That, and it integrates with Bachmann's optical chuff triggers seamlessly, so the manufacturer has already done that bit of wiring for you.) (oh, ok, DCC is good because it integrates with the already-wired electronic triggers) I don't know what you'd use other "trigger magnets" for, unless you're triggering sounds via track magnets. ( DOH! Yes, of course ) Not many folks who run advanced control systems do that, (point me to an "advanced control system" other than DCC with 28 independent function controls) so that's not really a consideration (yeah, because they cannot do it) . (And--again--if the DCC decoder is capable of external triggers for sounds, then--if you want to use them--you've got to run the wires.) (yeah, but why do manual triggering if you have complete remote control... like your claim earlier, virtually no one does this in DCC, they don't NEED to)

_"WAY more wiring for battery?" _ 
Sorry, can't agree there. (yeah, I got the drift, you are bound and determined to counter me and prove me wrong... got it) The complexity of any advanced control system is dependent upon the level of control you want to place on the locomotive. (wrong, very simplistic statement and wrong take 2 cars, one with a lot of push buttons and one with the single "knob" like a BMW... just not a reasonable generalization) There's simply no significant difference in the work required when powering the decoder from the track vs. from a battery. (ok, so justify this with facts) Yeah, you've got to add a power switch. (there's a difference, so you shot yourself in the foot already) So what. (ahh, there is a logical reason to dismiss a fact: so what... man that makes a lot of sense... ) (Technically, you need a means of disconnecting the battery, so a power switch could consist of simply unplugging the battery from the pig-tail sticking out of the back of the locomotive.) That's pretty inconsequential (not really, especially with the size necessary for handling a good amount of current, look at quality R/C battery products, large connectors and large screw terminals... bang, another shot in the foot), and if you _are_ squeamish about that (what does squeamish have to do with this, it's whether it is easier or not, and more work is LESS EASY), you can get one of G-Scale Graphics "Battery Conversion Modules" that has the power switch, fuse, and charging jack all pre-wired on a singe PC board for you. (ahh, more space used up with yet ANOTHER circuit board so harder to get it inside... bang, hole in foot again) Two sets of screw terminals for battery in and power out to the decoder--about as simple as it gets. (MORE WIRES = MORE SIMPLE? I think you might lobby that wiring a jet plane is simple) The "real work" of any installation comes downstream of the decoder. How do you connect the motors, lights, smoke, etc., and to what extent do you want to control them? That's what varies significantly from locomotive to locomotive, system to system, and individual preference to individual preference. (that part is indeed ALMOST equal, although MODERN decoders can have multiple voltages and built in LED outputs to eliminate dropping resistors..)

Plug-and-play interfaces make the conversion to either camp even easier. We both can use the same Titan decoder in the same Aristo locomotive. I've got to have the G-wire receiver plugged into mine. That's the _only_ difference between our two installations. You set your loco on the track, turn on the power to your command station, and make sure the "Track/Battery" switch on the loco is set to "Track." (HAH! and back feed battery power to the rails! You need more wiring changes my man!) I set my loco on the track and plug a battery into the pig-tail on the back of the loco, and make sure the "Track/Battery" switch is set to "Battery." We're both off and running with the identical amount of control, with no more or less work relative to one another. This has been the major push of manufacturers for quite some time--to make it easy to install aftermarket control systems of any flavor. Airwire's got their USA "Drop-In" boards, and just released their own plug-and-play adapter board. No one's going to use this stuff--regardless of flavor--if it's a bugger to install. So you make it dead-nuts-simple to install regardless of where the electrons are coming from, and your customers are happy. 

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. (Kevin, I think you are in a reverse time warp, clouded by everything referenced to what you do personally, short trains, Narrow Gauge, few locos running at the same time. Not everyone has the same requirements...) The R/C control electronics were large, and the batteries even larger. "Fitting everything in" was the primary challenge even in a moderate-sized locomotive. (Yes, time warp, here you are still 10 years ago) We didn't have the capability for on-board DCC control,(yes there was) and there were no "plug-and-play" sockets. (might check when Aristo made the socket) Today's a whole new ballgame. (even better) It's no longer black and white. (nobody said it was) The two camps are fast converging, and the manufacturers--both locomotive and electronics--are working hard to make it ever easier to do so. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

If installing battery R/C was such a pain in the butt to install, why is it still so popular? Especially for smaller Garden RR's with not many locos.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Decoders are from Mars, batteries are from Venus.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Greg- That's why God in his infinite mercy and wisdom invented proofreaders. 
Once someone gets out of their technical comfort zone, anything can happen. 
TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another thing about DCC. Certain decoders (e.g., NCE) work with DC also. In my case, it's nice to be able to fire up a converted DCC loco on a DC test loop. Conversely, if you have a DC throttle pack with enough snoose, you can plug that into your layout and at least test run a (single) non-converted loco there.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I did that in LS...once. Put a QuasiNami equipped three truck Shay on track power, a "normal" two truck Shay behind it, and turned the power on, watching the three trucker. 
Two truck hit the three trucker so hard it knocked the back truck clean off the rails. 
So, I checked. 
The QuasiNami equipped took 8 volts to start, with a noticeable loss of top end. 
The QuasiNami shortly thereafter became landfill. 
TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 26 Aug 2013 02:06 PM 
I did that in LS...once. Put a QuasiNami equipped three truck Shay on track power, a "normal" two truck Shay behind it, and turned the power on, watching the three trucker. 
Two truck hit the three trucker so hard it knocked the back truck clean off the rails. 
So, I checked. 
The QuasiNami equipped took 8 volts to start, with a noticeable loss of top end. 
The QuasiNami shortly thereafter became landfill. 
TOC That's why I said "test run a (single) non-converted loco." 

Great clarification on why not to mix approaches on the same track, but a sad story nonetheless TOC... shays are my fave...


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I really need to decide on the roadbed and track type before winter. I would like to lay a test circle and see how it holds up over winter. I will have some very specific questions once I get started but for now I'm just researching and trying to learn. Does anyone live in the northern NJ or southern NY area that would be willing to show me their layout? Even eastern PA would do i'll drive up to an hour or so. Jim 

Jim - I scanned this thread earlier, but didn't notice this question. I'm in Rochester and I'd be happy to show you what I have - NCE, 500 ft. of SS code 250 track, pneumatic switch control, Kadees. Ready to show you most anytime if I'm not too far North for you. 

JackM 

Beautiful drive through the Fingerlakes this time of year!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

_(no sound?) (nice example of low speed low current motor that can use small batteries... definitely NOT a representative example of the average installation)_ 
Tsunami 1-amp motor/sound control, Airwire "Convertr" wireless DCC receiver, speaker in an enclosure under the hood. No, it's not an "average" installation, but it illustrates my point that size doesn't matter. The only "extra" space needed for this installation to run on battery (exclusive of the battery on top of the deck) is for the Convertr, which is about the same size as the Tsunami. It was no trouble to fit any of that stuff in. Those components are designed to fit in HO-sized models sharing space with motors and speakers. Move them to large scale (in specific circumstances such as this where you can get away with low-current components), and you can hide them almost anywhere! 

But let's talk "real large scale" components; I fit the QSI Titan and G-wire receiver in the Bachmann plug-and-play socket and speaker in the bunker of a Bachmann Climax. My first installation had an 11.1 volt battery on the floor of the bunker on top of a wafer speaker, but I decided I could fit a 14.8 volt battery in the boiler instead. (In fairness, this Climax example is one such where the tightness of the space inherently incurs a higher workload for the install.) But give me something as roomy as a "standard" locomotive tender or long hood of a diesel? No problem whatsoever. Plenty of room. 

_...you make your entire point on one old manufacturer!_ 
Er, what's "old" about the Titan? You need the reed switch (or pushbutton) attached to it in order to do manual factory resets (among the other functions I mentioned.) Okay, you don't "need" it, but you also don't "need" an external volume switch or programming interface with the Phoenix. You can program the volume to functions (under DCC control at least) and so long as you can get to the board easily, you can plug in the programming pigtail to the board only when needed. 

_(point me to an "advanced control system" other than DCC with 28 independent function controls)_ 
Airwire and QSI/G-wire offer battery R/C control of DCC components, full 28 functions now with Airwire's newest throttle. I can have the exact same complexity and control as you without needing power to the rails or a central command station. 

_(yeah, because they cannot do it)_ 
Not sure what you're referring to. Of course you can use track magnets to trigger sounds. It's just that few people do it because they prefer to push the button on the transmitter. But Del's new Railboss 4 system has triggers for both pushbutton and magnetic reed triggers of sounds. You can control them both ways at the same time, even. 

_(ok, so justify this with facts) _ 
I'll justify it with personal experience; over 25 years doing battery installations, and the past 5 or so also doing DCC installs. There are different steps involved and some tasks that have to be done in one environment vs. the other, but _in my experience,_ it's not "more work." This isn't a "right or wrong" statement, it's my personal assessment of the nature of the work involved in doing installations. Yours--obviously--is different, which is why I said "I can't agree there," as opposed to "you're wrong." 

_(not really, especially with the size necessary for handling a good amount of current, look at quality R/C battery products, large connectors and large screw terminals... bang, another shot in the foot)_ 
Greg, I don't even know what you're getting at with this one. I'm using the same connectors and screw terminals you're using, because I'm using the same _products_ you're using; same decoders, same battery connectors, same lights, same motors, same plug-and-play sockets... the only difference is the specific locomotives into which these components are installed. 

_(HAH! and back feed battery power to the rails! You need more wiring changes my man!)_ 
How are you backfeeding battery power to the rails when there's no battery on your locomotive to backfeed power from? You've got nothing connected to those pig-tails. On my locomotive, I've got a battery connected to my pigtails, but in the "battery" position, the track pick-ups are isolated from the onboard electronics. If it weren't, I'd have a direct short the moment I sat the train on any railroad with a reverse loop. 

_(Kevin)"Fitting everything in" was the primary challenge even in a moderate-sized locomotive. (Greg)(Yes, time warp, here you are still 10 years ago) _ 
Not sure what you mean here. I've been telling you that over the past 10 years, I've been able to fit more and more components, larger speakers, and higher-capacity batteries in increasingly smaller spaces. I couldn't do the installs I do today using 10+ year old technology. No way. 

_(Kevin)We didn't have the capability for on-board DCC control,(Greg)(yes there was) _ 
Okay, 10 years ago, we had Airwire, but they were the only kid on the block, and even that was limited to 8 functions with their RF1300 throttle. Control comparable to today's offerings with a full 28 functions and all the lights, bells, and whistles you can poke a stick at didn't exist. 

Look, I get your point. If you were to write an instruction manual on installing track-powered DCC into a locomotive vs. installing battery power, you wouldn't need as many steps for DCC. But--I'll bring back that retort which you earlier scoffed--"so what?" It's not that much of a difference. But with battery power, there may be more steps in "Chapter 1 - installation," but there's no "Chapter 2 - track maintenance" that we need to worry about. 

Both methods are work--just different work at different stages. Pick your poison. 

Later, 

K


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Jim,

Like Kevin points out, there's that "Chapter 2" of ongoing track maintenance associated with your present decisions. 

From that perspective, if SS track were the same cost as brass or aluminum, you might choose SS. But SS is a lot more expensive than brass or aluminum. 

However, nickle-plated brass is not a lot more expensive, and has some qualities that some argue to be superior to SS. Here's a pricing example, per http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/t...3db2c3e00d. 

50' of brass Train Li flex: $335.
50' of NiPl Train Li flex: $420.
Delta: 25%

I made spreadsheets out the wazoo on this a few years ago, trying to better the $/foot with alternate sources. Maybe one could do it now, but I sure couldn't do it then. 

So again, this decision of track material may swing in for your decision. And my point is that you DON'T need to feel forced to battery operations because of ongoing maintenance issues, because an additional 25% isn't a make-or-break for perpetually-clean rail. 


Instead, I'd encourage you to consider how you would like to run your equipment, from the operational standpoint of you, as the user, AFTER all the expenses of track and conversion and whatever. For example, if you're OK with involving a system of batteries and charging, very cool. If you'd like control over a lot of locos and switches and other things, DCC is really cool. Both camps have many helpful experts here on MLS, and my benefit from their knowledge and experience is constant. 

In summary, I would hate to see you shortcut your decision due to a misunderstanding of the affordability of corrosion-resistant and non-oxidizing rail. 

Best regards, 
===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, your logic to deny facts with: 

"forgive me if I don't think it is significant" (to drilling holes for a power switch and charging jack) 

"not many people use this" (from your own perspective) 

"there's no difference between track power and battery ... yeah you do have to add a switch" (no difference means NO difference... simple English) 

"that's pretty inconsequential" (referring to adding switch and wiring or a big-a** power plug) 

adding another circuit board makes it "as simple as it gets"... (no more boards is more wiring and complexity and more space) 

and the topper: "so what" 

all of these are your opinion over the facts. 

Anyone reading this can look at the facts vs. opinion. 

I maintain more wiring, more space and more work to do R/C battery with sound and equivalent functionality. 

Drilling holes for external access, power jack, programming jack, volume control, etc. all add up. 

Breaking my position into little independent pieces is ok, but then saying all the little pieces are trivial is just misleading. 

It's like saying a penny is worthless, even though you have a handful of pennies... 

I'm done here, people can read and make up their own minds. 

(The technique used here is very similar to Tate's attempt to refute all the pieces of information that add up to a whole... ) 

I for one, have found value in a handful of pennies. 

Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By CliffyJ on 26 Aug 2013 04:39 PM 
Jim,

Like Kevin points out, there's that "Chapter 2" of ongoing track maintenance associated with your present decisions. 

From that perspective, if SS track were the same cost as brass or aluminum, you might choose SS. But SS is a lot more expensive than brass or aluminum. 

However, nickle-plated brass is not a lot more expensive, and has some qualities that some argue to be superior to SS. Here's an example. 

50' of brass Train Li flex: $335.
50' of NiPl Train Li flex: $420.
Delta: 25%

I made spreadsheets out the wazoo on this a few years ago, trying to better the $/foot with alternate sources. Maybe one could do it now, but I sure couldn't do it then. 

So again, this decision of track material may swing in for your decision. And my point is that you DON'T need to feel forced to battery operations because of ongoing maintenance issues, because an additional 25% isn't a make-or-break for perpetually-clean rail.


Instead, I'd encourage you to consider how you would like to run your equipment, from the operational standpoint of you, as the user, AFTER all the expenses of track and conversion and whatever. For example, if you're OK with involving a system of batteries and charging, very cool. If you'd like control over a lot of locos and switches and other things, DCC is really cool. Both camps have many helpful experts here on MLS, and my benefit from their knowledge and experience is constant. 

In summary, I would hate to see you shortcut your decision due to a misunderstanding of the affordability of corrosion-resistant and non-oxidizing rail.

Best regards, 
===>Cliffy
Is that real NS or NiPL meaning Nickle Plated? I remember the LGB nickle plated stuff. Peeled off in some instances. Waste of money.
I referred to solid NS track.
Aluminium is what, $22 for six feet, assembled, in a far more prototypical cross section than 9.63" tall rail in 1:29 would ever be.
$182 for 50' of 250 Aluminium.....still a lot cheaper than brass or plated brass.
TOC


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Like I said TOC, NiPl. 

Not taking anything away from your argument, I was concerned as well, because I've seen flaking in the past on other products. 

There are different ways to do the plating, and this doesn't peel off. It's interesting to take a Dremel to. 

I'd be happy to send you a sample to take a file to, just PM me your address. 

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 26 Aug 2013 05:27 PM 
Aluminium is what, $22 for six feet, assembled, in a far more prototypical cross section than 9.63" tall rail in 1:29 would ever be.
$182 for 50' of 250 Aluminium.....still a lot cheaper than brass or plated brass.
TOC

... until your wife walks on it crushing the rails. Mine thinks nothing of stepping all over the brass track when she is "helping out" even when cautioned against it many times. Luckily, the most she's done is pop the ends of the ties off the rails.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Nah. It's .332. Not one person I know locally......have to think...uses .332, nor brass. Every outdoor railroad local uses aluminium. 
Good thing that flaking got fixed, but still....the old LGB brass track weathered so nicely it looked like old steel after 5 years in the weather. 
TOC 


(wait....Easley might still be using his old .332 at the retirement community. Herb used to use .148)


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

One issue, at least for me, track power is not prototypical. I want a locomotive to be it's 'own thing'. Perhaps that's silly but eh. 
And I want to send (and get) commands via wireless, I don't like the over the rails communications thing, reminds me of X10. 
Twenty amps on rails 2" apart in my VA rain forest concerns me too. But whatever works...


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I place my loco on the rails (0r open the door to the train shed), turn on the battery power switch, and off she goes ... Every time, smooth as silk (No herky Jerky stuff) ! Only thing that slows me down on the first lap is track debris (sticks, or overgrown ground cover). Cost? Doesn't cost me anything, because I'm "in the business". Value (to me ) of NOT cleaning oxidized track, dirty wheels, fixing opens in turnouts, opens in track pickups, repairing burned up wiring due to derailments, etc.? Priceless !

Own 100 locos and can't afford to convert them all. Don't. Just convert a couple. You will soon be selling off the others or watching them collect dust on the shelf because it's too much trouble to run them. (Of course this is an exaggeration, but that is basically what happened on my railroad. And as they say ...."never looked back".)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I've got probably 20 or more converted, some with sound, some without, more than that in boxes as delivered, as spares or whatever. 
Funny...my aluminium rail has been on the ground over 20 years, only one time I bent a rail 9still have it), when a 4" limb came down and hit it directly. 
I have been standing on my track doing dome scenery and landscaping work of late.....didn't bend. 
There are ways, but once you slam the input portion of the brain shut, there is no option but 332 brass, NS or stainless. 
TOC


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

My brass track has been down for 16 years. At an average cost of ~$1.90/ft back then, why would anyone use aluminum?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

_"I for one, have found value in a handful of pennies."_ 

Greg, you speak of pennies as if time and energy spent doing an install is strictly a quantifiable, billable commodity; that it's labor, and every step you can save is somehow of some greater benefit to reaching your goal quicker. By your position, there are sets of quantifiable facts relative to precise steps involved, and that--alone--is justification for drawing what you view to be the only logical conclusion. If you're doing this strictly as a dollars-and-cents business, I can understand that logic. From a time-and-efficiency standpoint--step-by-step--a DCC installation is easier and requires less wiring. But to how I view the hobby, that's not a relevant perspective, because--after all--this is a hobby, not a business. 

For me, time spent in the workshop is invaluable, whether it's simply plugging in a decoder and watching a train run back and forth on my shelf testing it out, or gutting every last length of wire the factory put in a locomotive. (Or, sitting in my chair staring blankly at the projects on my shelf.) It may not be _productive_, but the time I spend in the workshop is purely "me" time. You can't put a price on that. Some nights, I can plow through a complex install in one sitting. Some nights, even the simplest of installs seems too daunting to even break out a screwdriver. There's a HUGE mental aspect to these tasks. As the saying goes, "it's not 'work' if you enjoy it." It's a hobby, and I don't do it if I'm not in the right mind to enjoy it. There may be more "steps" involved in one install vs. another, but since none of it is actually "work," (here's your favorite phrase again) so what? It's all part of "the process," and the process is what I enjoy. I'd imagine the same can be said of you and whatever track maintenance you do on a regular basis. I might view it as "work," but then I don't enjoy that aspect of things. I'd rather be in the workshop building a model. 

Later, 

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI Train -Li nickel is plated over a copper plated brass in order to prevent peeling. 
Nickel plated track is 20 per cent higher cost than brass from Train-Li.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

"It's like saying a penny is worthless, even though you have a handful of pennies... 

I'm done here[/b], people can read and make up their own minds. "


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 26 Aug 2013 08:40 PM 
My brass track has been down for 16 years. At an average cost of ~$1.90/ft back then, why would anyone use aluminum?
Because back then Aluminium was half that cost, as it is today.
Now, with your wayback machine, if you could get it cheap now as then......we wouldn't be having this discussion.
$182 current for Aluminium 250 assembled track. Compare to brass...or, heaven forbid, stainless.
TOC


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 27 Aug 2013 08:35 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 26 Aug 2013 08:40 PM 
My brass track has been down for 16 years. At an average cost of ~$1.90/ft back then, why would anyone use aluminum?
Because back then Aluminium was half that cost, as it is today.
Now, with your wayback machine, if you could get it cheap now as then......we wouldn't be having this discussion.
$182 current for Aluminium 250 assembled track. Compare to brass...or, heaven forbid, stainless.
TOC



But unlike your railroad, my brass track serves as more than just a support over which to run the trains.
One rail serves as a common ground for my 21 turn-outs and my ~5 dozen or so lighted structures and features. I would never trust that to aluminum that I can't solder wire too. You need to add in the cost of several hundred feet of REALLY THICK wire to replace that common ground in your equation.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

You need to add in the cost of several hundred feet of REALLY THICK wire to replace that common ground in your equation.*Malibu 12 GA 2-conductor cable* currently $47.00 for 100 feet at Amazon.


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Maybe its the climate or just my luck. I haven't had problems with long periods of time between charging or using batteries (yet). I do agree that they are expensive and replacing them can be annoying. I have found similar issues (especially if you have a large layout...say 200 feet or more) in having to do a lot of track maintenance and assuring electrical contacts between sections of track and power. So, I guess it becomes a choice of what you rather spend more of your time on. Back to the moderator, I do agree that costs can be very similar between DCC and battery. And if we go back to Jim who is trying to figure which path to go on, it really becomes preferences and modeling skills that you either have or are willing to learn. I think if Jim does a lot of reading through the various forums on the pros and cons, he will make a good decision for his growing hobby.


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Posted By JackM on 26 Aug 2013 02:57 PM 
I really need to decide on the roadbed and track type before winter. I would like to lay a test circle and see how it holds up over winter. I will have some very specific questions once I get started but for now I'm just researching and trying to learn. Does anyone live in the northern NJ or southern NY area that would be willing to show me their layout? Even eastern PA would do i'll drive up to an hour or so. Jim 

Jim - I scanned this thread earlier, but didn't notice this question. I'm in Rochester and I'd be happy to show you what I have - NCE, 500 ft. of SS code 250 track, pneumatic switch control, Kadees. Ready to show you most anytime if I'm not too far North for you. 

JackM 

Beautiful drive through the Fingerlakes this time of year! 

Thanks for the offer but I'm about 5 hours away unfortunately. 
Jim


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Hey all,

Thanks for all the info. I'm overwhelmed! I actually responded last week but I did it on an iPad and for some reason when I posted the message it didn't work and then deleted everything I wrote (grrrrrr Apple, not a fan). Anyway, I think I have made my decision... more accurately it was made for me. When I initially bought the trains from my friend it came with about 30 ft of LGB track. I recently found a great deal on over 100 ft of LGB track on Craigslist. So now I have almost 150 feet of brass track. I think I'm set on which material to use. I was leaning towards it anyway simply because I can do BOTH battery and track power on it. I think if I invest in a track cleaning car I should be OK on maintenance. 

So, based on the responses, I think I'm gonna use the brass track, track power and DCC when I get up to speed on how to implement and use it. I figure worst case scenario and I hate brass/DCC I can recoup most of my money by selling to someone else and go battery.

Thank you all for the input. I have some more questions but I'm gonna start a new post.

Jim


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

If you get dissatisfied with DCC and track power, why would you sell anything to go with battery power. As far as I can see there is nothing you are doing that wouldn't let you do either track and/or battery power.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He would sell his dcc control system, power supplies, and perhaps decoders.. 
(and of course spend even more money







)

Greg


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I didn't see it mentioned, but there are additional factors which can favor one solution over the other: 

- Will you be taking your trains to a club or other railways? Battery will operate no matter what power system your host uses. 

- Do you want a large railway, where cost differences in track material may be more significant? 

- Will you mix electric with live steam?


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Posted By calaski8123 on 09 Aug 2013 11:39 AM 
Wow great stuff guys thanks. It's overwhelming. The last thing I want to do is settle on a system and find out its not what I want later one and have to start over. Sound is really not an issue but I could possibly see going over four locos at some point in the future if I really get hooked. If I solder the track connections and use concrete roadbeds, can I effectively limit the amount of maintenance? Other than some cosmetic ballast and maybe some repairs from my dogs, I'm thinking there shouldn't be anything else if I go electric track power? I bought used LGB stuff from my friend. I have four locos right now and have another in mind. Not planning to run all at once but be nice to have that ability if I wanted. The costs seem reasonable with battery, I guess a little less with track power but more initial work in soldering everything? I really need to decide on the roadbed and track type before winter. I would like to lay a test circle and see how it holds up over winter. I will have some very specific questions once I get started but for now I'm just researching and trying to learn. Does anyone live in the northern NJ or southern NY area that would be willing to show me their layout? Even eastern PA would do i'll drive up to an hour or so. Jim 

I think soldering the connections will be a big headache. Especially outdoors, where track will move, solder joints are just going to break. You'd want to solder a short jumper wire to each track section, not solder the sections together. Look into rail clamps, which pinch to the rails with bolts (check out the SVRR Online web site.) LGB makes a conductivity grease that can be used prior to joining track sections, too. You can run a feeder wire underground, to supply power to multiple points around your railway. 

Did you get any of the little plastic connectors LGB include with their starter sets? Part number 1150, I think. These will help hold the track sections together, though they do nothing for electrical conductivity.

Unless you already have concrete - such as a poured patio - I think you'll be happier with a less-permanent choice, at least until you settle on the track configuration you like. I'm leaning toward using some kind of landscape product, like bricks or stone tiles, to outline a "right-of-way," which I'll then fill with small gravel. Then lay the track, and more gravel to be level with the top of the ties - I want the prototypical look of ballasted track. This method should give me enough elevation range to cope with the slight grade on my lawn (live steam especially likes a flat railway) and be easily modifiable. I want to be able to take everything up and restore the lawn with minimal effort, too.


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Not interested in going to club meets... none around here anyway.

No interest in live steam

As far as the size, I eventually do want a large railroad but over years... not buying all at once.

Jim


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## calaski8123 (May 30, 2013)

Posted By BigRedOne on 29 Sep 2013 12:56 PM 
Posted By calaski8123 on 09 Aug 2013 11:39 AM 
Wow great stuff guys thanks. It's overwhelming. The last thing I want to do is settle on a system and find out its not what I want later one and have to start over. Sound is really not an issue but I could possibly see going over four locos at some point in the future if I really get hooked. If I solder the track connections and use concrete roadbeds, can I effectively limit the amount of maintenance? Other than some cosmetic ballast and maybe some repairs from my dogs, I'm thinking there shouldn't be anything else if I go electric track power? I bought used LGB stuff from my friend. I have four locos right now and have another in mind. Not planning to run all at once but be nice to have that ability if I wanted. The costs seem reasonable with battery, I guess a little less with track power but more initial work in soldering everything? I really need to decide on the roadbed and track type before winter. I would like to lay a test circle and see how it holds up over winter. I will have some very specific questions once I get started but for now I'm just researching and trying to learn. Does anyone live in the northern NJ or southern NY area that would be willing to show me their layout? Even eastern PA would do i'll drive up to an hour or so. Jim 

I think soldering the connections will be a big headache. Especially outdoors, where track will move, solder joints are just going to break. You'd want to solder a short jumper wire to each track section, not solder the sections together. Look into rail clamps, which pinch to the rails with bolts (check out the SVRR Online web site.) LGB makes a conductivity grease that can be used prior to joining track sections, too. You can run a feeder wire underground, to supply power to multiple points around your railway. 

Did you get any of the little plastic connectors LGB include with their starter sets? Part number 1150, I think. These will help hold the track sections together, though they do nothing for electrical conductivity.

Unless you already have concrete - such as a poured patio - I think you'll be happier with a less-permanent choice, at least until you settle on the track configuration you like. I'm leaning toward using some kind of landscape product, like bricks or stone tiles, to outline a "right-of-way," which I'll then fill with small gravel. Then lay the track, and more gravel to be level with the top of the ties - I want the prototypical look of ballasted track. This method should give me enough elevation range to cope with the slight grade on my lawn (live steam especially likes a flat railway) and be easily modifiable. I want to be able to take everything up and restore the lawn with minimal effort, too.



I meant soldering jumper wires and using the locking track clamps... Thanks for correcting me. The concrete method I was thinking about was detailed on this site by one of the members. It looked pretty good. I have all winter to do my research and determine the best option. My concern with prototypical using a trench, gravel and then ballast was washout during storms and winter. I'm trying to remove as much maintenance as possible. Otherwise, I know whenever I want to run the trains I'll go out, spend an hour or two fixing things and then my time will be up! 
Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you focus on minimizing maintenance, I'll guarantee you will have more fun enjoying your trains! 

Stick there and you will be happy, as opposed to people who used different priorities and were unhappy with reliability, time to get things running, and resetting track and switches. 

It's what I have done, and would not do a thing differently after about 9 years. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Jim,

Great job on navigating this major decision. So many factors; it was sure a challenge for me, only recently (about 3 years ago). 

I ended up similarly: rail power / DCC, and am very happy with that decision. 

You're correct in seeing the roadbed issue as another biggie. Might want to start a new thread on that, ha ha!









Cliff


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## Osvidar (Dec 27, 2009)

K,
Super helpful post thanks.








What are the typical pitfalls those new to battery/remote fall into?
BTW: Got my indoor RR running and ~1/8 wired for cabs. Using all the "Starter set" (X4) gear we've collected, some extra track and an old MRC 'momentum' throttle. It's 32' of dogbone mainline w. two sidings and three 'industries.'
Want to go outside, hence the interest in battery power & remote control.
What are the typical pitfalls those new to battery/remote fall into?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The biggest issue I find with converting to battery R/C (or DCC for that matter) is getting into the loco and figuring out what goes where to install the electronics. Almost every loco is different. While "plug-and-play" interfaces have made things a bit easier, there are still some ideosynchracies that get in the way of things being truly universal in how to go. Some recommend gutting everything and starting from scratch (whcih is certainly a viable option in some locos), but other locos--if you want to take advantage of some of the on-board electronics they have for lights, chuff triggers, etc., it's not quite so clear-cut. 

My other thought as it comes to battery R/C systems is not to get so hung up on trying to pick one specific system. In all likelihood, you're probably going to want a second transmitter at some point, for multiple operators, redundancy, or whatever. Why not make the second transmitter you buy a second system? Each system on the market has different strong and weak points, which can be exploited to fit each individual installation. That, and if you've got multiple systems, one supplier can hit a dry spell for whatever reason and not leave you hanging. 

Later, 

K


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