# New Version of Dallee Sound System?



## trainman707 (Jan 3, 2008)

I either heard or read someplace that Dallee is coming out with a new sound card. Is this correct? I've been watching various sites and have seen nothing about when this will take place.


I know, I know...there is Phoenix etc. etc....however for the $$ I'd be happy with the Dallee. 


Thanks!


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not sure about Dallee. Aristocraft IS coming out with a Revolution receiver with sound built in but I think it is manufactured by QSI for them not Dallee. Considering how the new QSI Titan is way behind schedule I wouldn't hold your breath in the Aristo unit being out anytime soon. I have just about given up on cheap sound. The only thing available right now is Phoenix. I have several of the QSI Titans on order in which I will double the price and resell them as soon as they become unavailable again.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There are sound/motor decoder units available other than Phoenix and at a lower price. 

For a small motor, Zimo has a motor decoder/programmable sound decoder for less than a Dallee, and can output multiple sounds at the same time. 
Small would be the FRR locos, handcars, even a rail truck. MX645 can handle 1.2 amps with 2.5 amp peak and 3 watts audio power, plus light control features, and 35 volt track power!!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There are a number of other options if you are running on DCC, and some of the DCC sound decoders also run on conventional DC. ESU's LokSound decoders, for example. I'm not sure how you trigger sounds with them, because we run on DCC, but I know it can be done. The sound quality with ESU is excellent.




I started trying out ESU because I got fed up with the endless delays form QSI. There are other options out there.


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## trainman707 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the additional information. I just received the E8 Card (Dallee) and installed it. The horn is great, however the engine sounds are 'okay'. I've just used it on the yard tracks in the garage so don't know how it will do outside. Too cold right now to get out. Looking forward to testing it outside.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo unit, if it is ever made, will not be from QSI, completely different hardware, not to mention that Aristo has been on a tear to make the space around the socket only fit the revolution and not fit the QSI. (By their own admission). 

Greg


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps that will change now that Lewis is not in charge anymore (thank God!).


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There's a thread on the Aristo forum about their sound receiver. While any "official" statement has yet to be made, if you read between the lines based on the post by the fellow who says he's doing the sound recordings, they're not doing that until May/June of this year. Since it's kinda hard to release a sound system before the sounds are recorded, I'd not expect to see anything until late this year. (Probably about the same time we'll finally see the QSI board.  ) As for Dallee, I haven't a clue. It'd be nice if they did upgrade their boards to something that at least can still play the chuff while the whistle's blowing. It's a good system, but that's a dealbreaker for me. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope Dallee does upgrade their cards--more competition is a good thing. 

Interesting how aggressive aristo is being towards the Euro market, and towards other scales. Makes sense given the larger market, but DCC is really firmly entrenched in the smaller scales, I think, and as far as I can tell, from large scale, the revo is not too well suited for track power. I still don't get that huge cap board. If they make a drop-in card with decent sound, I'd bet it will really increase their sales in large scale, as people realize how easy it is compared to wiring a separate card, a la Phoenix. 

Phoenix will really have to develop some motor control to survive, I think. They have a fantastic sound library, but I'm not sure it's enough.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Phoenix will survive as long as there are regular analogue DC users wanting to add a decent sound system to their pride and joy. 
I'd be willing to bet that the P8 is a very small part of the Phoenix market compared to the PB11 used in the aforementioned analogue locos. 
QSI could do that in a clunky sort of way, but, at present does not exist.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I hope so. ESU's sound decoders can operate on DC, similar to QSI. I haven't actually looked at the details, but I know there are a very wide range of features available in "analogue mode." I'm not sure how the sounds are triggered on DC


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

From what I'm seeing on the Aristo forum boards it looks like it will probably be the later part of summer or even fall before we see any sound receivers from Aristo. Aristo IS saying that there next shipment of Revolution receivers will have sound on them but they are not saying just when they expect them to arrive. If they were expected anytime soon I think they would say that.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually a correction to Kevin's statement about the Aristo unit. 


Kevin states: "if you read between the lines based on the post by the fellow who says he's doing the sound recordings, " 

This is not true, read the post yourself... there is a guy who is indeed doing sound recordings, and he lists the ones he is doing. 

The first one is a S-1 which is not produced by Aristo, and he lists more, several of which are only made by USAT. 

He states / implies that he will make them AVAILABLE to Aristo if they want them. 

If he were actually doing them on behalf of Aristo, based on Aristo's past performance and abhorrence of support for any competitor, they would not be underwriting recordings for USA Trains equipment. 

If you follow what has been posted about this product, they showed one (I saw and recorded it on youtube) that had steam sounds, then no news for a while, then months later they showed a diesel one, and then went "dark" again. 

The telling info is that Aristo stated that the next batch of Revos made will have the "capability" for sound, and since I have held the unit in my hands and seen the hardware, it looks like the hardware just has an audio amp and more ram. 

Based on how the steam unit operated, they have a LONG way to go to have control over the sounds like the leaders in the industry. That's ok, because I expect they will deliver something in capability between a Dallee and a QSI... the sound quality was likewise between the two also. 

Regards, Greg


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## Doddy (Jan 23, 2008)

Hello Greg, et all,


Over to the dark side, maybe, maybe not.

I am the guy who posted on the Aristo website about sounds.


First of all, the Aristo sound system in *my opinion*, should not be limited to Aristo-Craft products. Sales of Revolution Sets is paramount. More anon (below).


2: The locomotive list mentioned was written by and for me to gauge interest within the Aristo fraternity.


3: Aristo does not have a European bent on sounds, it's just that in my having recorded many locomotives from across northern Europe, it 'would have' (deliberate past tense) been easier for Aristo to release HO and OO gauge decoders where sounds already exist in my library since there would be a lower development cost to get them to market.


4: The ALCO S1 is available in the UK and arrangements have been made for me to access this locomotive operating under power this summer. It is me that wants the ALCO S1 sounds and NOT Aristo - also there is no air ticket to pay for as I am also based in the UK. 


5: I had planned to be in the USA to record locomotives specific to Aristos range in the first instance. There is a proviso in that I will record locomotives that occur in MY fleet and that includes Swiss electrics and USAT locomotives. AND are available to me to record on the east coast where I had originally intended to fly into from the UK,


6: The request for help in accessing US locomotives which are only in use with major operators fell on deaf ears. So I still do not have any contacts in the industry for recording a Dash-9, but would love some help in doing so and will ask again via this forum posting.

7: Functionality: a hotbed!


As originally intended by Aristo, a Phoenix lookalike.


However, I convinced Lewis and others to develop a unit which would have produced multiple sound paths for various throttle settings rather than synthesised engine throttling. (playing the sound file faster and slower in response to the DC applied to the locomotives motors.). Sound recordings are made with the vehicle in motion under different operating conditions and reflect what the locomotive is actually doing, braking sounds activated by the throttle on the Revolution handset. Variable braking and acceleration profiles for light engine and heavy train haulage. Sound quality higher than QSI or Phoenix. etc... etc...


This is all stuff that QSI, Dallee, Phoenix, Soundtraxx, Digitrax, ESU, and ZIMO don't do! OR at least not the way real locomotives work and with enough memory on the decoder to do it properly - the Aristo unit would have been able to do all this - BUT!


The reason I said on Aristo's website that the sounds would be 'made available' is that Aristo have recently informed me that Aristo has cancelled *ALL* product development work (I.E. not just the sound system - everything!) due to poor sales over the last couple of quarters. I was trying to get some response from Aristonauts to say Yeah I want this product, but it appears that most did not!


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I want the product and I want it tomorrow!. If they aren't going to produce it soon, it is time for me to start thinking along different lines than the Revolution control system.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Doddy on 27 Feb 2012 12:36 PM 



However, I convinced Lewis and others to develop a unit which would have produced multiple sound paths for various throttle settings rather than synthesised engine throttling. (playing the sound file faster and slower in response to the DC applied to the locomotives motors.). Sound recordings are made with the vehicle in motion under different operating conditions and reflect what the locomotive is actually doing, braking sounds activated by the throttle on the Revolution handset. Variable braking and acceleration profiles for light engine and heavy train haulage. Sound quality higher than QSI or Phoenix. etc... etc...


This is all stuff that QSI, Dallee, Phoenix, Soundtraxx, Digitrax, ESU, and ZIMO don't do! OR at least not the way real locomotives work and with enough memory on the decoder to do it properly - the Aristo unit would have been able to do all this - BUT!


The reason I said on Aristo's website that the sounds would be 'made available' is that Aristo have recently informed me that Aristo has cancelled *ALL* product development work (I.E. not just the sound system - everything!) due to poor sales over the last couple of quarters. I was trying to get some response from Aristonauts to say Yeah I want this product, but it appears that most did not! 











First, thank you very much for this informative post. Im very sorry to hear that Aristo has canceled ALL product development work. I can understand why, but still, too bad. Let's hope for economic improvement Second, either I'm not understanding you or your are wrong--ESU decoders, for example, have different engine sounds in response not to throttle setting, but in response to BEMF loading from the motor. So does QSI, Zimo, and Massoth. It's an interesting and in my opinion an excellent feature. This seems to be exactly what you are describing as unique to the (now no longer forthcoming) aristo unit.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Doddy, thanks for clarifying it for those who misunderstood. 

It's too bad that Aristo has cancelled all product development, but nothing is ever final. Seems strange since they had acceptable (in my opinion) working hardware and software. 

On using different sounds for different throttle settings, vs. synthesizing the "speed", well that is the original and most common way most European sound systems work. 

Several companies have gone "one better", having the ability to have different sounds at different speeds or BEMF readings AND to modify the sounds (volume or frequency). 

I know the Zimo does this for sure, and others. If I remember correctly, you can set up to 10 different "sets" of sounds that the locomotive will "go though" from lowest to highest speed or BEMF.

The reason that most companies have gone "one better" is that if you just have sets of sounds, there is no "transition" effect. For example, when changing "notches" in a diesel, you do not instantaneously change engine rpm, there is a transition in rpm. 


Regards, Greg


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## Doddy (Jan 23, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 27 Feb 2012 04:26 PM 
Yes Doddy, thanks for clarifying it for those who misunderstood. 

It's too bad that Aristo has cancelled all product development, but nothing is ever final. Seems strange since they had acceptable (in my opinion) working hardware and software. 

On using different sounds for different throttle settings, vs. synthesizing the "speed", well that is the original and most common way most European sound systems work. 

Several companies have gone "one better", having the ability to have different sounds at different speeds or BEMF readings AND to modify the sounds (volume or frequency). 

I know the Zimo does this for sure, and others. If I remember correctly, you can set up to 10 different "sets" of sounds that the locomotive will "go though" from lowest to highest speed or BEMF.

The reason that most companies have gone "one better" is that if you just have sets of sounds, there is no "transition" effect. For example, when changing "notches" in a diesel, you do not instantaneously change engine rpm, there is a transition in rpm. 


Regards, Greg 




Greg, lownote,

Guys, 

Please read my email in detail. Whilst I am aware that ZIMO, QSI etc have BEMF to modify sounds by volume or frequency that is exactly the problem with them. Yes you can go through 10 sets of changes, but these can only be programmed in relation to the voltage applied to the motors it is in direct proportion. AND does NOT correspond to how a real locomotive works. Also in the case of ZIMO in particular you can only step through these changes in a way that requires a step down through the sound sets in a way that requires merging of sounds at each of the 10 stages to match in tone and frequency. Again the real locomotive engine does not work this way.


When have you ever heard a real locomotive pulling a 2000 ton train and sounding as though it is idling, only developing the sound of the engine at full throttle whilst the loco is pelting around the track? This is the way these guys have setup their systems. Sorry, but this is what you guys are describing and it is wrong.


When have you ever heard a real locomotive stopping a 2000 ton train and sounding as though it is still working hard when it should be idling, This is the way these guys have setup their systems. Sorry, but this is what you guys are describing and again it is wrong. 


I have been around the loop with all the manufacturers now and they have all readily admitted they CANNOT replicate the real engine note transitions of a real locomotive because their software does not allow it. AND they do not want to spend the time to get it right.



"The reason that most companies have gone "one better" is that if you just have sets of sounds, there is no "transition" effect. For example, when changing "notches" in a diesel, you do not instantaneously change engine rpm, there is a transition in rpm. "

Greg, I do not wish to rain on this, but this qoute does not make any sense at all and is false to my mind. First of notches were only used by US loco types, UK and other European locos are notchless, so the architecture used by these companies does not lend itself to notchless loco types.


2: When a locomotive moves off - say with that 2000ton train, what do you hear? does the loco dig down and produce the sound of a loco hard at work, NO most of these companies use the 10 stage proportional engine notes transitions in a way that the locomotive does not have the engine movement following the engine transition note. 


3: Many guys here in Europe have utilised the 10 stage setup to record complete engine note transitions in way that allows multiple paths of sound segment to be programmed into them - this feature is only available on ESU's Loksound. I would like to be proved wrong though.


4: Only Loksound has the capability to react to how you move the controller position and choose a sound path relevant to how you use the throttle. And in any case you are fixed with one profile for acceleration and deceleration characteristic. So in effect you still cannot have engine movement following engine sound which is how it should work.


Now rather than keep typing stuff nobody reads thoroughly, perhaps this post will show what I mean.



*NB: This is a demo which has lots of finger button pushing which will be automated on the Revo controller once Aristo's development cycle kicks back in.*

http://youtu.be/at4tPE12qU8

Now just imagine this capability with an ALCO FA1, EMD E8, an SD45 or a Dash-9.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dallee has a trigger on their diesel sounds that can ramp up the engine speed before the loco starts. 
This can be manually triggered with an RCS system but could easily be made automatic.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Doddy, I won't rip your response into pieces, but you have a basic misunderstanding of how these decoders work. 

"When have you ever heard a real locomotive pulling a 2000 ton train and sounding as though it is idling, only developing the sound of the engine at full throttle whilst the loco is pelting around the track? This is the way these guys have setup their systems. Sorry, but this is what you guys are describing and it is wrong."'' 

Well, I don't have my locos set that way... they develop sound when they are working hard, like a real loco.. so what you are saying about ME is wrong... 

"When have you ever heard a real locomotive stopping a 2000 ton train and sounding as though it is still working hard when it should be idling, This is the way these guys have setup their systems. Sorry, but this is what you guys are describing and again it is wrong. " 

well, again my locos are not set that way, when they are stopping, the steam "motor" is silent, just as when it drifts/coasts. 

Again, what you are saying about ME is wrong... 

"I have been around the loop with all the manufacturers now and they have all readily admitted they CANNOT replicate the real engine note transitions of a real locomotive because their software does not allow it. AND they do not want to spend the time to get it right." 

WHO are these manufacturers? I want to ask them the same question... you say ALL manufacturers.. so phoenix, qsi, esu, Massoth, Zimo all stated this? 

"2: When a locomotive moves off - say with that 2000ton train, what do you hear? does the loco dig down and produce the sound of a loco hard at work, NO most of these companies use the 10 stage proportional engine notes transitions in a way that the locomotive does not have the engine movement following the engine transition note. " 

YES MY LOCO DIGS DOWN AND PRODUCES THE SOUND OF A LOCO AT WORK. 

I really don't know whose decoders you are listening to, but I'll bet Axel can demonstrate a Zimo that does this... I have several Zimos that do this, and my QSI. I know that lownote could demonstrate an ESU for you and Mohammed would be delighted to additionally prove you wrong with a Massoth. 

By the way, here in the US we have notched diesels most of the time, so we do care about American prototypes more than others in general... that should not be construed as a negative... my QSI running the New Haven RDC sounds is notchless. 

I understand you believe you are talking about something that you believe is completely different than what is available, but other than putting down everyone else, you have not proved or convinced me that your "ideas" are breakthrough ideas that ALL the manufacturers do not do at ALL. 

I watched your video, you have a control panel that turns sound on with switches... nothing is automated. The sounds are nice, but there is no automation relating to the motion or effort by the locomotive. 

It's all well and good to say you want it realistic. So what computer algorithms and what electronic sensing circuits have you developed to automate these sounds? 

Without any design, all you have is a bunch of sound files, not a product. 

Greg 

p.s. if you think a tiny company with no expertise in sound processing, DSP, or the like can design a decoder more sophisticated than the leaders out there, well, wow, dream on. There is a tremendous amount of software development to even get to half of what a Zimo or ESU can do.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Like Greg, I found that what you posted did not make sense and did not connect with my experience of DCC, and the video you posted did not clarify what you claimed. 

Over on the Aristo forum, they have explicitly denied your assertion that ALL R+D has stopped.



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## Doddy (Jan 23, 2008)

*All through this thread there has been false accusations and you are continuing the theme. *


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

*??????????*


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Whether or not Aristo has cancelled all development I would like to see them focus in a leaner, meaner product line offering. I'm no business man, but it seems like focusing on Loco's, Rolling Stock, track and R/C systems would be what they work on. They have their hands in everything from figures to buildings to power supplies, from O scale to brass models. It seems to me and I could be very wrong, a smallish company like Aristo has significant resources tied into all this stuff that may give them the appearance of a well diversified company but they don't do themselves or anyone else any favors by not being able to keep decent stock levels across the board. 

This is not Aristo bashing, I have lots of Aristo stuff and like it. But, USA Trains seems to stay focused on Locos, Rolling STock and Track and keep stock levels full. So, now sound is in the works for Aristo and that's great, but we can't even get the old Revolution system or Gp40's or PCC's, etc or a bunch of stuff without waiting for indefinite periods of time for it.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

What does this have to do with the new version of the Dallee Sound System? Most of this should have been in a new thread.
Bob


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Threads evolve and almost never stay on topic.I don't know about others but my particular point stemmed from the suggestion that Dallee was going to be the new Aristo soundboard since the topic was titled," new version of Dallee Sound System" . Someone in this same thread mentioned Aristo had stopped all product development so it's sorta on topic.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I heard that Aristo soundly denied that all development was halted also. 

The only false information here seems to be coming from one source. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a look around the Dallee website and did not notice any announcements about newly uprated sound systems.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm curious to see what the updates will be.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By Truthman on 02 Mar 2012 06:09 PM 
Threads evolve and almost never stay on topic.I don't know about others but my particular point stemmed from the suggestion that Dallee was going to be the new Aristo soundboard since the topic was titled," new version of Dallee Sound System" . Someone in this same thread mentioned Aristo had stopped all product development so it's sorta on topic. And I know I've been as guilty as anyone at going off topic, but I just happened to think that if someone wanted information on Aristo's new sound decoders (that had been promised) but had no interest in Dallee, that might never see any of this information. 
Bob


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

ECLSTS is just weeks away. Dallee is there. Be patient. I will ask. I have a number of Dallee systems. Also I will ask Aristo about their sound systems. 


To bring this back to Dallee Sound cards, here is a video of RS3 with Dallee Sound card.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Bob, I know what you mean. I don't post frequently and sometimes it seems like I have to dig for information. Lots of threads stray off topic. I'm guilty.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Not really complaining Nate, just an observation. I did read this thread to learn more about Dallee sound cards. Since I can no longer get QSI I was thinking that if Dalllee had come out with a new card that it might be worth looking at. Other than Tony it didn't seem like this had anything to do with Dallee anymore. I appreciate Tom Parkins video of the RS-3 with Dallee. That sounds pretty good to me. Is that your locomotive Tom? Did you install the sound card?
Bob


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a stock Aristocraft RS3, purchased by me. It is battery powered using the old 27MHz Train Engineer with 19.6v battery in the trailing box car. 

I think that the Dallee RS3 is much better than the EMD I have in my GP9. 

Tom


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Will Dallee cards work with DCC decoders? I've never actually looked, but I have some non-sound decoders. Could I use an NCE decoder, for example, and a dallee soundcard?


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## Rail Planet (Jan 22, 2012)

I think the decoder would need a function output. I could be wrong, though.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, you could trigger the dallee with the NCE function outputs, the D408 has 6 if I remember right... have to be sure you don't have a ground loop problem. 

Greg


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Tom- that Dallee rs3 card sounded pretty good. I thought the Dallee cards were monophonic- only one sound at a time- but in your video, it sounded to me like the horn, bell and engine sounds were happening at the same time. Is that the case or is my hearing really that bad?!!!?? Do you have any other Dallee engine sounds- FA's, Mikado's, etc.... 

-Kevin.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe that dallee has recorded the combination of the horn and the different notches.... since there are only 8 notches, not hard to do... can't do that with the infinitely variable chuff rate. 

Greg


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The Dallee diesel sounds are polyphonic. The steam engine is monophonic. I have GP9. Doodlebug and several steam cards. I find the diesel cards better than the stem. I don't currently have any video of the steam cards. Here is the Doodlebug video. It is actually the sound card from the Galloping Goose but it sounds pretty convincing for the doodlebug. 

First here is a real Doodlebug PRR #4662 taken last year on the Wilmington and Western RR in Yorklyn Delaware. Note the Stanley Steamer sitting at the grade crossing!!!




Here is the Elm Creek Doodlebug with the Dallee Sound Card.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a little tongue in cheek with the terms polyphonic as applied to the Dallee... 

From a practical perspective, in listening to the sounds, they give you the same thing as a true polyphonic sound. 

But, from all the information I have, there are not 3 separate sound processes running (bell, horn, prime mover) that are mixed to a single sound as in a true polyphonic system. 

As I stated, my understanding is that they recorded the 8 notches with and without the bell and horn, and thus you can have them all together. 

Great idea, and polyphonic from the end user's standpoint, but the hardware is not polyphonic. Again, if it sounds fine, it does not matter, but the hardware is doing all it can, and I believe you will understand that in that you cannot vary the sound level of the horn independent of the prime mover... as in a true polyphonic system. 

Regards, Greg


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Tom- Thanks again for posting the Dallee sounds. Dallee lists a few different model number sound cards for the RS3. I liked the engine, horn and bell sound on your card. Do you know which one you have? Thanks. 


-Kevin.


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