# The best puller or a 4-8-4



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

I want a G scale loco that's gonna be a real puller. I have eliminated Bachmann and of course, Buddy L. I have an Aristo-Craft 2-8-8-2 but I'd like one about half that size, and if I have to pay that guy to build me a 4-8-4, I'll do it, but for now, does anybody make a 4-6-0, or a 4-6-4, 2-6-2 or anything close that's well built and can pull 8-10 cars all day long. I don't want a big boy. I'd rather buy 6-7 Aristo-Craft 2-8-8-2's but with that aside, Which loco in the 4-6-0 range is the best puller? I'd like it to be fashioned after an American loco. LGB's 21192 looks and sounds good but some threads here say it's not a real good puller.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

USA Trains made a die cast Hudson 4-6-4 that probably will meet your specs.
Not cheap.
Old story, you get what you pay for.
John


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus

The simple answer is how much does the engine weigh, and what is the drag of the train you want to pull? Friction in the journals of your cars will dictate how much drag you have. Set up a typical train and get a fisherman's scale and pull the train with it around your layout. Note the maximum weight and where it is, not the weight of the cars, but the drag of the train.

I have measured the pulling power of many of my engines. It averages about 1/3d the weight of the engines. Some are slightly better pullers and some, like LGB moguls are way below average. I have no problems pulling 12 cars on my layout with most of my engines, the exceptions are my LGB Moguls. 

The durability of the engine is something else. I do not have a Bachmann Big Hauler or Annie. My engines are LGB, Bachmann (1:20.3), AristoCraft, USAt, and Accucraft. These have all been very reliable and the heavier ones easily pull 12 cars. I routinely pull 32 cars (plus a caboose and battery car) with my AristoCraft Mallet. The picture below is on Dr. Rivet's layout. It is used for live steam and battery operations. The train in the picture is on the uphill grade of the layout, 0.6%. Many steamers with long trains have a problem on this part of the layout. The Mallet doesn't even slowdown.











Chuck

Use the scale on your engine and see what it can pull without wheel slip. If you want your engine to last, don't approach that weight too closely with the drag of your train.

One more comment. Adding weight to your engine will increase pulling power, but MIGHT shorten the life of the gears and motor. For several years I put some fishing weights in my LGB Moguls and all of a sudden I was replacing the idler gears. Took out the weights, and no more problems.

This is how I measured the pulling power of my engines. It can also be used to measure the drag of a string of cars.










Here is the pulling power table for some of my engines.










These measurements were made on a level, straight track. 

Grades and tightness (diameter) of curves will significantly effect the drag of a train and the ability of an engine to pull said train.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck, the LGB Mogul has only 2 pulling axles as the center axle is spring loaded to touch the rail as is many LGB engines. No real weight for traction.
But there are older moguls with 2 traction tires on the rear axle and are great pullers and these have the older lead weights.
Latest moguls have lighter weights and only one traction tire and pull less cars.

So for LGB pulling power on American Steam the mikado is best, followed by the dual traction tire mogul, then the old forney with lead weights, then the newer mogul/forneys.
I did not mention the Aster line but all these are great pullers due to brass construction, very heavy engines and most expensive LGB engines..


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan

All my Moguls were bought before 1994. 

I just checked, mine all have a single traction tire. 

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Festus, what are your grades?

At first cut, my opinion is that no x-6-x will will work unless you get the USAT Hudson, and that is $$$.

Get an Aristo Mikado, and weight it down, and use that .

Greg

p.s. Chuck, you have room on your chart for the Hudson, but no data??


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Greg, I never got around to measuring the pull. I'll add it to my to do list.

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you have one? If not, I have one in a box I can measure...

Greg


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, yes I have one, but right now the tracks are wet and the forecast if for more rain. Maybe we can send some of our rain your way!!! We've had since early June only 9 days without rain and our total in June and July is over 15". That is three times normal. I haven't had the trains out very much lately.

If you want to measure it I'll add it to the table, or we can wait for a dry forecast here in the DC area.

Chuck

I just dried the tracks and measured a pull of about 5# for the Hudson. I'll add it to the table. It weights about 25#. That works out to about 20%. I'm surprised that it is that low. I'll measure it again after some dry weather. Maybe some of the weight is on the pilot and/or the trailing truck?

I've never had it slip. The heaviest train it has pulled so far is a rake of 8 USAT stream liners. On Dr Rivets 0.6% grade it didn't have any problems pulling that train (including a battery car).


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

Little or no grades on my layouts. The one I built first is a 4 leaf clover 15" high. The mainline will be a long oval with 15' curves and little or no grade(s).

The diesels I have for my mainline include:

ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	# 22103 NEW HAVEN U25-B
USA DIESEL	#1216 SANTA FE CALF
USA DIESEL	#1216 SANTA FE CALF
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	#22018 NEW HAVEN FA-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	#22018 NEW HAVEN FA-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	#22103 NEW HAVEN U25-B
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	#22318 NEW HAVEN FB-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	#22605 SANTA FE CENTER CAB DIESEL
MDC DIESEL	#G2110 0-4-0 BIG HUSTLER SWITCHER
LIONEL DIESEL	GP-20 UNION PACIFIC
LIONEL DIESEL	GP-20 UNION PACIFIC (DUMMY)
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	ROCK ISLAND U-25B DIESEL
USA DIESEL	SANTA FE 20 TON SWITCHER
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	SANTA FE LIL CRITTER
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	SD45 #5450 SANTA FE
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	U25-B CANADIAN PACIFIC
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC FA-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC FA-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC FB-1
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC FB-1
USA DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC NW-2
ARISTO-CRAFT	DIESEL	UNION PACIFIC-LIL CRITTER


I have no idea about the pulling power of any on the list. The ABA's ought to do well. The 2 Lionels? not so good I expect. The SD45 and the U25-B? pretty good, but I was gonna look them up on this website to see before I put them on my mainline. 

My problem is: I'm trying to complete my mainline AND put my 1975 AMF Ironhead Sportster back together and they both call to me. S&S Super E carb is my current project there.

Mainline? It's both straights. I have a friend who I hope will put in the WYE and finish it off for me, but who knows?

Back to my loco: It sounds to me like I'll try that USA 4-6-4, but I won't like it if it won't pull a dozen cars. Considering the price, even used, no way.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus

You can easily determine this yourself for your engines. Just get a kitchen scales. Most of your engines will weigh less than 11 pounds, that is the maximum my kitchen scale will weigh. Multiply that weight by 0.20. Most, if not all, of your engines will pull that as a drag weight. Many engines will pull much more. My thoughts are that diesels appear, on average, to have a better draw bar pull than steamers. This may be that all or most wheels are pulling, not helping to support weight.

Some cars have very stiff wipers on the wheels to provide lighting for the cars. They can be like pulling a brick without wheels. Every train has a different drag. You need to determine the drag of your train and worry less about what the engine can pull. With that roster you should be able to pull any consist that any of us could dream about having on our layouts, using any three engines picked at random. 

Just weigh the engines. None of us can predict the drag of the trains you want to pull. Only you can do that. Please remember, that it is the drag of the train, not the weight of the cars making up the train, until you get into grades, then weight adds to drag.

Chuck

I'm sure there are other factors out there that could change the values, such as, track type and smoothness of the engine wheels, come to mind.

The bottom line is for me, I would take out a train that I would want to pull with a specific engine and see if it can pull it. If it can't you can either add more engines, or start taking off cars, until it runs satisfactorily. There is no way we can say what will happen on your layout with your cars and engines. We can only provide very general suggestions and guide lines.


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus;

There are also things you can do to make the cars roll more easily. I have an Aristo/Delton Bumblebee C16 Consolidation. Although this is an eight-coupled locomotive, the two center drive axles have blind drive wheels that do not even touch the rail heads. In essence, this locomotive is a glorified 0-4-0. It would get a heated motor just pulling four matching LGB passenger cars. Granted, I had lights, people, and baggage in those cars, but it still should not have added THAT much drag. I converted all four passenger cars to LGB ball bearing wheel sets, and the locomotive settled down and pulled its train happily.










Just a thought,
David Meashey


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave

An excellent suggestion, reduce the drag. On some cars I have bent back the brass wipers on some of my passenger cars and cabooses(cabeese) to reduce drag. I have not added any BB wheels sets. With a few exceptions my trains are short enough to minimize drag problems.

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Hudson is expensive... 

$2,200 new http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-TRAINS-...050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234e467e42

It will pull a lot of cars, and something seems wrong or different with Chuck's loco, these are known as great pullers.

pulling 11 aristo heavyweights: 




pulling 18 two bay hoppers: 




It will do what you want...

Greg


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I agree, something is amiss with the measurement. It is way too low. Maybe 30 years of polishing my track with a green scotch bright pad has really smoothed the rail tops. I'll check again when things really dry out.

I think that a 5 pound pull would easily handle both trains in the videos.

Chuck


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Totalwrecker said:


> USA Trains made a die cast Hudson 4-6-4 that probably will meet your specs.
> Not cheap.
> Old story, you get what you pay for.
> John




posted yesterday....


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes John, post #2 by you...

Post #10 by the op: "Back to my loco: It sounds to me like I'll try that USA 4-6-4, but I won't like it if it won't pull a dozen cars. Considering the price, even used, no way."

My post, #14 to address his concern that it won't pull a dozen cars... with videos to prove it, since he asked the question.

So what is the point of post #16? 

Greg


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

dont mean to be killjoy
but the question itself seems pregnant with inevitable maintenance and wear issues.

as much as one may balk at the idea, these are toys, or at best models, not military spec.

while 10 -12cars isnt huge, all day , imho, is.

id suggest double heading, or more, with easily maintained lesser locos, like 2015 s, etc.

or multiple lgb alcos, mallets etc.

thinking in terms of replacements parts here for all day running.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was hoping that the videos would speak for themselves. These locos have been proven to be great pullers, and have a large, rugged motor and gearbox.

Festus said little or no grades.

This can be done easily. If desired, as mentioned before, ball bearings in the passenger cars.

Also, thinking in terms of replacement parts, USA has always been great at this.

Greg


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Guess I felt like it.
yours?



Greg Elmassian said:


> Yes John, post #2 by you...
> 
> Post #10 by the op: "Back to my loco: It sounds to me like I'll try that USA 4-6-4, but I won't like it if it won't pull a dozen cars. Considering the price, even used, no way."
> 
> ...


----------



## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

gorgeous loco
good to know they are robust and easily maintained


----------



## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is an Aristo Mikado pulling 14 cars on a 2% grade. No problem. It's a good puller. They may be a little hard to find. Probably in $500-$700 range, but may be cheaper depending on where you find it. 









*Same train in a runby at Maplewood. 





*


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Link didn't come thru


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg
I brought out a dry piece of track this afternoon and the result was similar.

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very strange Chuck, it _seems _as though it should have more tractive effort... I have to believe your measurements...

Thanks for the "double check"...

Regards, Greg


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Not Listed on your chart Chuck.....
How much does the Hudson weigh?


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk

It weighs about 25 pounds.

Chuck


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Is that loco "only weight"?
....or loco n tender...


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dirk

Engine only.

Chuck

Revised table










Here is a picture of my Hudson pulling an 11 car (battery car, 9 USAT streamliners, and 1 AristoCraft Streamliner) train at Dr. Rivet's layout. It had no problems. That is a fairly heavy train.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg and Dirk

Removing the pilot and trailing trucks added between 1/2 and 1 pound to the draw bar pull in the Hudson.

For its weight it isn't a great puller, but it is one h**l of a great engine, otherwise. I still haven't had wheel slip with any train I've put behind it.
Chuck


----------



## sniglet2 (Dec 29, 2013)

I have a Bachmann 4-6-0-with a Gen 6 powertrain that will pull 21 cars on a flat track with 16 ft dia curves


----------



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

*MIRR map; procedure & rolling stock size*

This is my mainline. The squares are 12". The sidings are about 15'-18' in length so I'll be limited (I'll only be using the largest rolling stock on the mainline; the smaller stuff will be reserved for the trestle & wishing well) to about 8 cars/pieces per loco I think. With that in mind, I will still pass the sidings and just start adding pieces of rolling stock to a diesel or my Annie, or 2-6-2 and especially my 2-8-8-2 just to see how many. Even now, on the trestle level, the LGB 0-6-2's (2073) will pull 12 easily. I don't want to damage any locos with these pulling contests but I will do it from time to time. I doubt I'll run them around the WYE & loop, just the mainline, if they're pulling a dozen or more.

So I have a make and model, and that's what I was after, but someone wanting a trade would have been even better. Besides eBay, where does ya go ta look fer used locos & such?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Took me several years to find one at my price. I had a few friends looking out for me. Eventually one friend tracked one down for me.

Ebay prices are all pretty similar, over $2k new, used maybe $1,700 ... 

Greg


----------

