# Roadbed ala Marty Cozad & Dennis Sirrine



## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

So my PVC ladder roadbed didn't fare so well over it's first winter. And I was bored with my simple figure 8 with now swtiches. 2 perfect reasons to completely rebuild the railroad right? Over the winter I did some research about concrete roadbed and decided it made up for all the things I disliked about the my ladder roadbed. I plan to do 90% of it with the grade of my yard as per Marty Cozad's style. There is one area where the grade falls off too quickly to follow the contour, so I had to build a block wall first and pour a concrete cap on top of the wall much like Dennis Sirrine did for his layout. I started at the point where the two styles would be married because... well I just like to tackles the most challenging parts first. Here's some pictures of my progress thus far.

 Block wall built, forming begun at the top of the hill. The rocks are temporarily placed. These will eventually be mortared onto the face of the wall to form a "cliff" below track level.


Another view of the same

[url="http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/manco/RR/?action=view&current=IMG_0299.jpg"]
Plywood forms are where a switch will go. Diverging route which continues around the radius (marked by orange paint) will be the mainline. The straight leg of the switch will lead to my covered storage tracks below the deck.

[url="http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/manco/RR/?action=view&current=IMG_0300.jpg"]








Masonite attached to block wall to form the concrete cap on top of the wall.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

What I see MIGHT work. You don't say where you live. I use a similar method. You need more rebar if you are in a freeze zone. Personally I would have used "U" blocks for the bottom row and used 3 - #3 rebar in them. Then use 3 - #3 in the top. I use #3 because you can bend it by hand. What you have now may still settle over time and crack or shift. It's easier to over build it a little bit than tear it out and redo it.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I live in the midwest, average temps in the winter stay in the 20s-30s only a day or two below zero. You bring up a good point though, the only example I had to go off of for a conc. cap was Sirrine's and he is of course in the southwest. He only used one strand of reinforcement but then again his climate is different. For the grade level roadbed 1 strand should be enough.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Well you sure can bet your bottom dollar it taint gona blow away.









I have some 4 inch thick road bed on the NR&W I threw in some rocks as filler but it is still 4 inches thick









All my Road Bed is 100 % concrete. Except for the bridges of course.

How ever......I am contemplatind a sectional concrete arch bridge.


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## bob7094 (Jan 3, 2008)

I waited a day to see if anyone else would say it first. But if you're going to fill the masonite forms to the top you need a lot more bracing. Also, unless you have a truck coming or a mixer of your own, that's an awful lot of bags to mix by hand.... My concrete roadbed, styled after Marty as you say, tends to be about 4 inches thick.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

First thing I thought of when seeing your forms... better rent a mixer! 
You'll be sore enough lifting the sacks... 

Most forms are made to grade height, that's an awful lot of crete to pour, Bob's right, more stakes and maybe some clamps over the top. 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Psssssst I am on my third mixer. I wore two out already.....Of couse there longevity is directly proportional to the amount of money you paid for them 

What you can do is to cut some platic pipe to put in between the sides of the masonite. Drill hoes in the masonite directly accross from each other. The use All Thread throuthe platic pipe to hold the sides.

My forms are steel and I re used them.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Well what I didn't say in the post was that the concrete was already poured... was gona save those pictures for later. And as most of you imagined, the masonite bowed a little towards the top. Sirrine said he used 1/8" masonite and it held fine. I bought the thicker stuff and still had a little trouble with it bowing so I'm not sure how he made it work. Mixing by hand wasn't that bad at all. For what you see formed, it only took 7 bags. Probably about an hour from the time water hit crete till it was all screeded off. All in all, a little bowing doesn't hurt anything in this area as it will be totally hidden by rocks and ballast. 


Only this one curve will get this treatment. The rest will be 2"-4" deep at grade level. Try to get pictures of how the concrete turned out later today.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I have never used a mixer on this RR. Its much easier to take the bags and wheel barrow to the spot. I use a hoe with holes in it to mix. 
looks good.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Would like to know how you built your ladder roadbed and why it did not work?
My railroad has been out for three years with no problems at all, except when Marty had 
the Big Boy over my transition from level the grade was on a curve and the 
front wheels would derail


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 14 Apr 2010 06:06 AM 
I have never used a mixer on this RR. Its much easier to take the bags and wheel barrow to the spot. I use a hoe with holes in it to mix. 
looks good. I lay long lengths of Road Bed at one time. I mix two and three bags at at time. I then pour it in the Wheel Barrow. Of course at my ummmmm advanced years I had to get a Wheel Barrow with two wheels on it. Then one must remember to lay down TWO boards when cross ing the tracks.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

That's what I like about you J.J. you work on the fly, like me and hope yer mistakes, if you make one, aren''t too big of ones and or too costly!! Hah LOL Regal


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By Trains on 14 Apr 2010 06:45 AM 
Would like to know how you built your ladder roadbed and why it did not work?




You and me both . Once hard winter set in, the ladder began to roller coaster pretty bad. I drove my uprights anywhere from 8-12 inches in the ground, basically only deep enough to make the uprights stable in the horizontal directions. My thought was that if all the uprights were drove into the soil above frost line, it would all heave at the same rate much like concrete roadbed does. For some reason this didn't happen. Seems like most people who have been successful with ladders have drove thier uprights up to 24" in the ground.


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By Manco on 14 Apr 2010 12:02 PM 
Posted By Trains on 14 Apr 2010 06:45 AM 
Would like to know how you built your ladder roadbed and why it did not work?




You and me both . Once hard winter set in, the ladder began to roller coaster pretty bad. I drove my uprights anywhere from 8-12 inches in the ground, basically only deep enough to make the uprights stable in the horizontal directions. My thought was that if all the uprights were drove into the soil above frost line, it would all heave at the same rate much like concrete roadbed does. For some reason this didn't happen. Seems like most people who have been successful with ladders have drove thier uprights up to 24" in the ground. 


One thing about frost heave, it's never ever equal anywhere, so if you had problems with the ladder roadbed I would not be surprised if your concrete roadbed would suffer the same.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Concrete roadbed with a stick of rebar here in NE, the true midwest, floats, just like your sidewalks. The few known problems is when metal or rebar is down in the ground and the frost heave pushes it up . Even if the concrete is lifted it would "feather" its self out. 
Just some thoughts. 
Many folks who guess it will frost heave have not used it. (not tring to push an issue)


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

I had the concrete truck show up at the house... cost me $20 more than buy 80 bags of concrete and have to hand mix them!!!!!! you should have seen the look of the concrete driver and my wife.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

good one Daniel. 
I usually show up with 5 gal buckets at our job sites if they are doing a pour. I try to get the left over. 
I usually pour 50' to 60' at a time , then move the forms onto the next sections.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

My father noted 10 or 12 years ago that it was always good to double check the pricing between mixing it yourself and having the truck deliver it. Do not forget to account for your time and labor in terms of how quick the job gets done too. In this case as well. havign a truck deliver a minimum amount may stretch your forming capabilities and you amy spend a LOT more on forms than you want to to get it all poured at once. In my fathers case he has a mixer but opted to have th truck bring teh concrete for the footer of a foundation he was pouring under a porch. He mixed all teh cement for the blocks he put above it as he only wanted to work for an hour or two per night thus one bag mixed or two kept him busy long enough and did not waste any materials. All things to consider. 

Chas


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Once I get to grade level, the cross section of the roadbed will be about 3"x4", one bag of concrete will go a long way at that point. And only doing 20' or so at a time, I can have the bags mixed in the amount of time it'd take me to call the truck and wait for it to show up.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

This year I got frost heave on my ground level ladder roadbed located on the East end of the RR. The Concrete bed on each side of it suffered no ill effects. To reposition the ladder, I just walked on it, sinking it back into the ground. [got lucky]. The elevated ladder/trestle roadbed had no ill effects either.

When I poured the reinforced concrete roadbed, I used Marty's recommended mix of 2 bags quickcrete and 1 bag mortor. My wheelbarrow, where the concrete was mixed was just about filled. With an average 3-4in deep pour the quantity would make about 15-20 ft of roadbed. That was just about enough for me to do after work in the evening. At the end of the pour, I would taper the concrete and leave about 3-5in of rebar extending out of the set concrete to connect to the next pour. [as a note: The first mix I poured had me working until after dark. Each successive pour went faster. The last pour took just a little over an hour.] 

Nobody is as efficient as Marty when it comes to layiing forms and pouring concrete. He is amazing!







He has been a great teacher for me even though we live 6 hours apart.

I really look forward to seeing your track after you finish the pour above the concrete blocks. Please post pics soon.

JimC.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Here's the poured cap


This one shows how the masonie warbled a little. Notice only the inside form had problems, the outside form held perfectly. 


The best part about conc. roadbed is it's a nice, level, flat surface just begging for track 






Here's what I've formed up so far for the grade level area.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What are you going to use between the track and the concrete to smooth out minor irregularities? 

Regards, Greg


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Trying to keep irregularities small enough that it doesn't affect the track. Overall, the surface is flat and level. Ballast will hide stuff.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have had some Irregularities from time to time. I used quick dry anchor cement or The patch cement that comes in the yellow bucktes. I have also used regular mortar/ stucco mix. 

What is really kewl is, here in the desert, once yuou get your concrete level and your track level you never have do it again.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Looks nice! How do you plan on attaching the track to the concrete? 

Jack


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I plan on using tapcon screws every so often.


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have concrete roadbed everywhere. All mixed by hand in the wheel barrow. On my 3rd wheel barrow, 4th mixing hoe. I stopped counting at the 1000th bag of concrete. Seriously. I also have poured driveway slabe, wall foothings, a shed slab, and patio slab out of that 1000 bags. I like the 60 lb bage of concrete mix I used to get at Home Depot because I could put 2 of them in the wheel barrow and mix them. Now I have to put in 1 1/2 80 lb bags. You ever try to pour out 1/2 of a bag of concrete? I have a show Sunday, After that going to widen the driveway again. Just ordered 2 pallets of congrete from Home Depot.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Don't pour a half, split the bag! Set the pair down and finish the cut. Now you can dump as needed. 

I poured 90# footings for a deck in the flood plain out in California about 20 years ago.. The buddy/helper taught me that trick. At first I couldn't lift and squeeze the bag's 'stab' wound and force the split. But I could cut the bag on top of the stack and lift the center, then cut 'em apart. 

John


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya, cut the bag in half and if you are donig a big job it doesn't hurt to have a half bag lying around just in case you add to much water.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By rpc7271 on 16 Apr 2010 01:54 PM 
Ya, cut the bag in half and if you are donig a big job it doesn't hurt to have a half bag lying around just in case you add to much water.


I put my half bags in double heavy duty trash bags. It will attract moisture also incase it rains before I need the other have of the bag.

I Cut the baqs in half because it is easier on my back and knees.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm with you JJ, 
20 years ago I was stabbing, then; bending the bag during the lift, broke across the bag and dumped in one motion! That was at the end of the job. In the beginning I'm glad I didn't have an audience! 
Nowadays 60#s is enough... 

John


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Lot of unnecessary work and expenses as far as I'm concerned. I lay track as it was intended to be like the real RRs floating. Only way to go. Later RJD


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 16 Apr 2010 06:07 PM 
Lot of unnecessary work and expenses as far as I'm concerned. I lay track as it was intended to be like the real RRs floating. Only way to go. Later RJD 
Only problem is natural forces acting upon your track are 29 time stronger than forces acting upon prototype track. Seems like all the photos/cab view videos I see of floating track, it's all sidewindery and rollercoasterish. I'm picky, I like straight track without vertical fluxuations. If you sight down modern day mainline track, it's straight as a pin as far as the eye can see. And while there may be grade, there are no discernable hips and valleys along that grade. That's very hard to do, much less maintain, in miniature without creating a solid surface first. I realize everyone's idea of fun and priorities are different, but nothing kills the realism of a railroad quicker than watching an oncoming train bob and weave it's way towards the camera. Watch videos of Dennis Sirrine's layout. Trains float liquid smooth down the rails just like the real thing. That's important to me.



Anyway, lesson learned. The masonite FAILED. Let it set out overnight and got a little rain. I knew moisture wasn't good for masonite but the forms are now bent up like accordions. Going to have to rip it out and replace it with some plywood. Probably would have been fine if I had poured right after setting. Didn't know rain was in the forecast.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I didn't know rain was in the forcast and ended up with 14 concrete pillows.

Of course you knwow about making Lemonaid.

So I used them this way 

I needed a anchor for a curve I needed to change


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Manco, there will always be irregularities in the concrete you pour, I can see them in the photographs you posted. 

I would suggest levelling it with some patching cement, those "hips" and "valleys" you mention are already there. 

That's the reason I asked the question. 

Now, your title says "a la Marty and Dennis".... Well, maybe "a la marty" although I think marty has more rebar per volume of cement than you, and that's what concerns me. 

You are not in the same ballpark as Dennis though, if you say "my concrete is perfect already"... not only is he in the desert like JJ where there's no frost heave and little chance of settling, but his concrete was poured to a greater precision, aligned with lasers, then a rubberized roadbed was applied, then smoothed and then the track went on it. 

So, I'm not trying to bug you at all, I think you are underplaying the work you need to do to prepare the base for your track, and I'm trying to have you avoid the frustration that others that believe their concrete never moves, shifts, settles and is perfectly flat. 

You will need to really level it up with a long straightedge and levels and some patching concrete before you screw your track down. 

I have about 60 foot of track on a concrete wall, and it's got rebar every 6 inches horizontally, rebar in every hole vertically, and still there has been some movement. 

Just trying to be helpful. I know too many people who tore out concrete and went floating. You cite the prototype for beatufiul straight track, well, the prototype is free floating track. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ron Senek (Jan 2, 2008)

I live in the desert and watch trains there is no such thing as prefect track that doesn't dip or cars that don't sway.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. The irregularites you see are surface defects not overall humps and sways. The warbled side form creates an optical illusion. You may have also seen one part of the edge where a chunk chipped out (due to my caveman antics with a shovel while removing the forms). The defects you can see in the photos are EASILY spanned by what little structural rigidity track affords. How many people out there have laid track on exist. conc. garden walls or even driveways without problems? Driveways have a broom finish which tends to be even rougher than a screed finish such as mine. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than free floating? Yes. Again, can't compare how the prototype does their track as forces of nature X 29 do not = same result.


Ron, I guess it all depends on what prototype you're looking at. I live near a Union Pacific mainline where they thunder one 100+ car unit coal train after the other. It is dead eye straight for as far as the eye can see. Not even a single niggle.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No problem Manco, just relaying my experience of many people trying to do this. Dennis does it to a high degree of success, but he has additional steps to ensure smoothness plus in his environment, little disturbs the roadbed. 

Marty does it with a more limited degree of success, he has rougher winters and fewer resources to keep the track in shape. 

But let's see how it goes. If you want to "span" dips, then I'll tell you the track will sag eventually, even my stainless steel will conform over time. 

But when you have humps, you are stuck. I ground my 60 foot section of concrete with a belt sander. It's flat as can be, but there was a lot more reinforcement in my base. I also loosely pin the track to a piece of wood embedded between the rails, just to locate it. 

If you screw the track down with the self tapping concrete screws, I would suggest enlongating the holes so you have a bit of play, but long stretches will probably still need "expansion rail" sections. If you want to "span" dips, then you probably should not screw the track down any more often than every 3 or 4 feet. 

Maybe you are doing all of this already. 

And the forces of nature work pretty well scaled down if you respect them. Your rail actually expands in a very similar nature, in terms of the number of scale feet of expansion and contraction. You can read what others have experienced and multiply by 29 and see how it relates to 1:1. It does pretty well. 

Our scale is large enough that the laws of physics relate very well. You can set the weights of your cars to the proper scale weight and it works well. 

If you could keep to prototype tolerances for level and flatness, you could approach scale flanges. 

But it's not meant as criticism, it's meant as things to watch out for. 

I've got a lot of friends that started out deciding (which sounded logical) that the track should be solidly fixed in place so nothing can move. 

(Again, physics of expansion and contraction are against you) 

Then they still had problems with rail movement, gaps in some places binds/kinks in others. 

The next step was to remove all the screws from the rails to allow them to slide. No improvement 

Many have switched to free-floating and solved their problems. 

So, it's just comments on things to watch out for. Free floating track is much easier to correct than concrete. 

Anyway, please take it in the spirit it is given. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

It is not necessary to anchor the track to the cement.

When the track is sitting in place, use a 50:50 mixture of yellow glue/water in a turkey baster to squirt along the tracks and over the ties. Lay your ballast in/on the glue and using the baster, put more glue mixture on the ballast. Clean the excess glue from the rail heads. The ballast/glue mixture will lock everything down and hold your ballast in place. The rails should be free to move within the ties. Some ballast will "self clearance" around the ties over time.

This is how I did it, but I guess I can no longer post a pic to illustrate.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Manaco you may disagree with Greg but I will also disagree with your reply. Laying track over uneven road bed will result in problems and the equipment you run will cause the track to sag and allow the trains to uncouple. Screwing the track down will cause the track to buckle in heat. The track must be allowed to breath as we say. I spent most of my 45 years in the rail industry doing track work and inspections. In the real world of 1 to1 track is free floating. The rail is anchored to prevent it from expanding and causing Thermal stress to the rails. In other words a kink. Later RJD


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to agree with Greg here about concrete roadbed. As a matter of fact, our pool deck has a small crack that formed during the rolling earthquake we had on Easter Sunday. This deck has been in place since 1979 and is over five inches thick and full of rebar. There is at least five to ten feet of deck around the entire pool. That's way more concrete than you have in your roadbed AND it STILL moved! I'll take floating track on gravel any day without the back breaking work involved in concrete roadbed. It works for the prototype. Before I removed my small layout about two years ago, I had my track on gravel for over twenty years AND I could change my layout any time I felt I wanted a change without getting out the jack-hammer! Every couple of years, I would add a little ballast and reset the rail a bit. No biggee. Just an opinion that's all. Good luck with your layout.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

It is not diffacult to modify concrete road bed. smak it with a mall, one of those little one you can hold with one hand. Clear away the debris Cut the rebar with a bolt cutter, hacksaw or even a dreml tool. Re set your forms and you are on your way.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 17 Apr 2010 02:59 PM 
Well Manaco you may disagree with Greg but I will also disagree with your reply. Laying track over uneven road bed will result in problems and the equipment you run will cause the track to sag and allow the trains to uncouple. Screwing the track down will cause the track to buckle in heat. The track must be allowed to breath as we say. I spent most of my 45 years in the rail industry doing track work and inspections. In the real world of 1 to1 track is free floating. The rail is anchored to prevent it from expanding and causing Thermal stress to the rails. In other words a kink. Later RJD 
Again: the surface is not uneven. There are minor surface irregularities inherent with concrete. No it is not glass smooth, but it is every bit as "even" as a bed of crusher fines on which you lay your track. It's a lot more even than my ladder roadbed was. I don't understand the replies here. It's turning into a debate as to whether or not concrete roadbed will work; almost like this is some experimental method that has yet to be proven. Have you seen Marty's railroad? It works. This is a proven method. 


You guys have convinced me that the concrete cap I've poured may have problems in the future, that makes sense to me. I've got pictures of the Palo Verde and Southwest being constructed exactly the same way, but I concede the climate difference may be an issue. Seriously though, to remain skeptical over the ground level conc. roadbed is pretty pointless given the numerous examples of it's dependability given to us by several members of this very messageboard.


*Greg:* I completely understand and agree with the concept of anchoring track. My previous attempts of anchoring every 4-6' proved very successful allowing floating on the curves. The expansion rail I installed never even budged even on the hottest days. No problems there. Just so it's clear, I'm not expecting track to "span" anything larger than a small "divot" in the concrete's surface. We're talking about pea sized surface irregularies that would barely require much more than a single cross tie to "span". Again, I assure you that what appears to be waves in the surface is an optical illusion due to the form warping.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Manco, 
Nice results for so large a pour. 
I'd have made a through on top for ballast. (but that's just me) 

While you may see uneven track in some videos, that reflects the priorities of the modeler rather than limits of the method. 
All my track floats and follows super-elevation through curves and is flat on tangents. If I see a dip or rise; my fingers through a couple of ties on either side, a gentle vibration of my hands and my track is where it belongs, with a lift or push. Even though I use sectional track there are no kinks, I cut rail for the best fit and flow. Because of extreme expansion and contractions here, my track floats on the trestle too! 

But I digress, instead of finding fault with another, point out the merits of your choices. We can be a defensive lot... lol! 

Finescalers critique, G scalers encourage.... Keep going and keep the pictures coming! 

John


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Totalwrecker... absoloutely my friend. Like I mentioned above, priorities differ. Mine is for impeccable track. Not trying to convince anyone else not to build thier house on the sand, but i'll keep building mine on the rock . From now on I'll affectionately refer to the "free floaters" as weeble wobbles .


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You kind of contradict your self when you say no surface irregularity. You do have them when using concrete. You say it is as smooth as crusher fines, not hardly. Some sort of leveling must take place when using your technique. It is hard to do with the system that you are using. As I said in my previous post which you apparently failed to read is you will have problems with any dips in the track when using cement. Just be aware of the problems that are contributed to what you are doing. Later RJD


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 17 Apr 2010 04:27 PM 
You kind of contradict your self when you say no surface irregularity. You do have them when using concrete. You say it is as smooth as crusher fines, not hardly. Some sort of leveling must take place when using your technique. It is hard to do with the system that you are using. As I said in my previous post which you apparently failed to read is you will have problems with any dips in the track when using cement. Just be aware of the problems that are contributed to what you are doing. Later RJD 
I read your post, a couple times, and I respect your opinion, just don't agree with it. I did level it when I formed it, meticulously in fact. I started this thread to merely document my progress this spring. I'm sorry it's turned into what it has.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well you may not agree with it but that's how it works in the real world. Trust me I have the experience to back it up. Just hope all works the way you have it planed. Later RJD


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Now you see why it gets harder and harder to share anything on MLS. 
Josh, just keep us posted on your progress, At less your working on your GRR. and sharing your ways. 
And our model train track IS NOTHING LIKE THE "REAL THING". No matter how many years anyone has work in that field...pound per pound.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Think again Marty. From all the post you have done you have identified things that happen in the real world. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think we better leave Manco alone. 

I was trying to point out some pitfalls, and the justification/explanation included some things that just don't make sense to me. 

Now we have Manco upset, Marty rushing to his defense and putting MLS down. 

Sorry, I was trying to be helpful, but I was also thinking that free discussion was ok here, given facts and experience. 

I should have realized that any criticism might hit close to home because the decision is made. 

Manco, I apologize if I hurt feelings, I thought we were having a reasonable discussion. We disagree but I respect your opinion, and seriously want you to succeed. I continued to point out areas that I disagreed on like "letting the track span a dip" because it really won't work well. 



Marty, I don't think you had to "up the ante" by putting MLS down. I know you have concrete track. 

Regards, Greg


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

We need more ENCOURAGEMENT people, not DISCOURAGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you made a wise choice with concrete, part of my layout still has some left, I like it!!

Keep the pics coming.

tom h


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

The sensitivity scale is about a "10" here. That's why we see less and less posting here. When was the last time we've seen the "really" old-timers posting? I thought a forum was to exchange ideas and maybe add some advice before people get in "too deep". Maybe we need a new "emotion icon" with a big bear hug!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Encouragement is my point. Not defense. 

This is Manco's thread

At our club meeting yesterday we had 25 folks . Many different methods. The host layout was track power, free floating and very nicly done and a mature layout . Everyone seen it works for him very well and nothing was said about what is better or not. 
lots of fun and many stayed the day to run. It was the most trains the guy had on his RR in a long time.(because of on board battery with track power) 
I had forgotten my camera.


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

I do precision work (machining/patternmaking/casting) and have learned over time that the flaws I see in my own work and that of others may effect function but more often than not they don't effect actual function. It amazes me that some can look at pictures and critcize and be a nay sayer. I would be very hesitant to judge this concretework w/o measuring carefully and understanding what is actually required. I remember one naysayer when I started building a stone house foundation which has supported a house for quite a few years now. 

IF there are any troublesome spots they should be reasonable to smooth out. 

I think this roadbed will be just fine. 

Jack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jack, have you got any track on concrete? I do. 

Have you seen track securely fixed to concrete? I have. 

The discussion was more centered around what to do with the INEVITABLE humps and dips, NO concrete is perfectly flat when poured. 

Now, my track on concrete is not screwed down and works ok. 

What I was cautioning about was fixing track down. 

Manco says he will span the "dips"... I warned AGAIN from experience that over time, metal track will "sag" to conform. 

But the "humps" will be a problem. "Reasonable to smooth out"? Have you ever ground down a concrete surface? It's not easy. And I HAVE done this too. 

So, I speak from experience, and am not a "naysayer". I'm using facts, logic and experience. You built a stone foundation that one person doubted. 

Your building a stone foundation has nothing to do with the topic, so your house has not fallen down, good for you, but this is about trackwork. 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Whoa! 

I don't remember Manco asking for advice... so no matter what you offer, don't be upset if it ain't taken! 

Greg; Your discussion is based on your known and perceived pitfalls... you put them out there and maybe down the line he may have regrets or not.... that's his choice. 

All; Cameras do funny things to pictures.... Practable knowledge of construction skills are relevant, just as machinists help us with our models.... 

I question the limited view of 'floating' as a reason for heavy duty construction, but that's my opinion, nothing more. 

Defend your Life!* Justify the Justification! ... But wait! We've derailed Manco's thread! 

John 

* What I say when someone starts to 'over-explain' a mistake... as in Relax, poop happens!


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## Jack - Freshwater Models (Feb 17, 2008)

Greg, 

I think Manco has a quite usable road bed. Believe it or not, one can deal with the irregularities of concrete in a variety of ways. Manco can fill the dips with very thin concrete or morter heavy on the lime/portland if necessary. One can also use construction adhesive under the ties for support at the dips. I'm sure there are other methods. 

Manco might have been better off to make two pours with the second being relatively thin, say 1.5", but I think he has a usable road bed. 

A local friend has a large elevated track with concrete deck and it is relatively flat but isn't absolutely perfect and his trains (which are British 1/32 and tend to be run fast) do just fine. 

I am considering using some concrete on my garden track but may form the concrete as a channel with drain holes in cross section to hold the track and ballast. I'm not sure I will even screw it to the concrete since my trains will probably be run relatively slow. I'll use a simple water level for determining elevation. 

I guess we have to agree to disagree! 

Jack


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

RJ is right, for 6 years or so I free floated all my track with stock rail joiners like the real ones.. 
But as the RR grew I found ways of keeping my 60' to 70' straight areas ,straight, yet allow exspantion. 
Its easy to free float when you have a small layout. 
enough said from me. 

back out side.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

First ( speaking as a moderator) 

Greg had a double post of the exact same thing. I deleted one.

Second

I do not like the tone of the last few postings. 

Please stop nit picking each others experiences, findings, and credentials.

We are all professionals in our own rite. Please show each other the respect one's knowledge deserves.

We do not need to point out what is related to the discussion.

The readers can figure that out on thier own.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jack, I agree with everything you said in your last post. 

All I was trying to point out is that no concrete is perfect and you may have to fill and or grind down humps and dips. 

Regards, Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Apr 2010 10:41 AM 

All I was trying to point out is that no concrete is perfect and you may have to fill and or grind down humps and dips. 

Regards, Greg 


As an alternative, one can float the track over the concrete. Simply build up the sides with concrete, or even coated styrofoam, or ..., so as to make a trough. Lay the track in the trough and just add ballast over it. This also holds the ballast in place. If there are imperfections in the base surface, no big deal because the track floats over them.

I do this on one of my curved bridges, but have no way to post a pic that I am aware of under this new software.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd

Use the respective HTML element tags instead of the UBB/Forum Code tags.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I have been following this thread with great interest. As RJ knows, my trackwork leaves significant room for improvement, so I am always interested in what others have done to support their track. In following this thread, though, I am really concerned for Marty, who all this time thought that his cement base for his track was really a great solution for him. Now it sounds as though he wasn't right!!!







I sure hope this doesn't cause him a lot of consternation!!!!

Ed


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

To each his own I say. I'm not going to criticize anyone for what they've done. I may not like it, but that does not mean I have to comment on it. Let each have it how they want, they may be wrong, but they will learn and correct it or live with it. Hobbies are for fun, so have fun!


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I'll say my final peace and then get back to documenting my progress. This thread was created merely to inspire others and document the construction of my railroad. I love looking at threads of everyone's expansion and construction photos because it motivates me to go work on my own railroad and gives me ideas. I was just trying to pass on. SO, I said all that to say, if I came across as defensive it was because this thread never was a, "Hey, what do you think about this method?" That question has been debated in other threads and answers have been found in real life experiences. Leave the Ford vs. Chevy debates over in the power forums where people argue about battery vs. track. The roadbed and track forum has always been a nice place to come and get away from those nauseating debates and just enjoy photos of other people's layouts.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

Hey Manco, 

I'm reading and enjoying this thread also. I have a new section of crusher dust roadbed that is right in the drip line of a tree and washing out faster than I would like. I'm looking at using a concrete roadbed section and your pics (and others experience) are very welcome. 

Love the construction photos, more more! 

Cheers 
Neil


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I was re reading this thread and the subject of Anchoring the track came up.

I use a piece of wire of the type that is used to tie rebar together.

I cut of a pice about 4 inches long.

I drill a 1/4 inch hole and insert a plastic anchor that takes a # 10 screw.

I bend a loop in the wire the size of a # 10 screw.

I then put the screw through the loop and insert it into the anchor 

I bend the two ears of the wire over the ties on either side of the anchor.









I broke one if the ears off the wire.

While this does hold the track firmly it does allow for some movement from expantion and contraction


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

JJ,

I like your anchor method. #1 it allows side to side movement. When I anchor my track every 4 foot or so, the corners do expand but I also have to contend with the fact that the curvature is suddenly brought back in check very 4' or so. Your method would alleviate that and allow for a more flowing curvature. #2, your screw head is down in between the ties rather than on top which makes it easier to hide and less likely to snag a coupler. I'll definitely experiment with that come anchor'n time.


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## jguettler (Apr 17, 2009)

JJ

I like your method as well for securing the track. 


Have you ever used a Tapcon screw instead of the plastic anchor? Just curious if there was practical difference between the two.


Thanks,
Jim


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Jim 

I have not tried theTapcon screws. I figure they would work just as well 

I use my anchors about 4 feet apart. 

Yes they do hide down in the ballast real well. 

The wire Rusts and blends in so well some times I have trouble finding them.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Tapcons would be overkill. Plastic inserts have enough strength to keep the track from floating away! lol A lot cheaper too! 
In my humble opinion, I think, tie downs should be flexible and allow movement. Tangets need to slide sideways to keep the line between curves. It's subtle, but if your tangents are secured and the curves expand you wil get a horse shoe look where the ends of the curve bend back to the tangent... instead of a half circle (for illustration). 

John


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a side note, when I anker my ties to the concrete, I have already removed all screws from under the ties holding the rail. so the ties stay in place and the rail can move. The exspanion joints allow rail to move yet a 40ft or so section stays (string line ) straight.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I never worked with concrete before, but because I had a section that needed to be raised about 6-7 inches I decided to try it after seeing how Marty did it. I'm not a perfectionist, as can be seen from the picture, but it did come out level and seems to satisfy my need. 

One thing I thought interesting. 

After poring the first 10 feet, my wife came out and suggested that I put some #6 limestone on the top while it's wet. (I use #6 throughout the entire layout as the base with medium chicken grit as the top layer.) Work it in a bit and when it dries it will be permanent. Her reasoning is that it will keep the smaller ballast, which is medium chicken grit, from washing off the hard surface during a rain. The more I got thinking about it, the more I think she might have had a good idea. 
The track free floats on top of the concrete. 


Although its only been in 1 week now, we did have our first heavy rain several days ago and low and behold the ballast stayed in place. 

So far, I'm happy with my first concrete job. I should probably tell my wife..... http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/

Forms in place waiting for concrete to dry.


http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/apps/...d=78998969
http://members.webs.com/manageapp/photos/photo?photoid=78366175

FORMS REMOVED AND FILLED IN WITH DIRT. 

http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/apps/...d=78998970

Regards,
Mark
http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/
http://members.webs.com/manageapp/photos/photo?photoid=78366175


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I used tapcon on concrete roadbed on curves when I used aluminum rails as they have a memory. When I relaid with brass, the tapcons were not necessary as the rails stayed bent to the correct curve


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 20 Apr 2010 05:09 AM 
I used tapcon on concrete roadbed on curves when I used aluminum rails as they have a memory. When I relaid with brass, the tapcons were not necessary as the rails stayed bent to the correct curve 
I'm using mostly aluminum, but I do have one area where I'm going to experiment with brass. I'm a little worried since with aluminum you just have to bend it somewhat close, and then fasten the ties down to the exact radius. With the brass, I'm going to have to attempt to bend the rail to the exact radius with my primitive homemade rail bender. But I guess the tradeoff is you don't need to anchor it as much.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Stripped the forms off the latest pour and formed up another section today. Would have had it poured but need to make a trip for more rebar.


This is how the new pour relates to the previous.


Before the forms come off.


After the forms are off. 2% grade through this area.



New section formed up. Notice the old abandoned ladder line in the background.



This wye switch is the tail end of a reversing wye where two mainlines will meet. The leg to the left will probably be next years expansion. Just trying to put down the main loop for right now. This section is dropping steadily at 2%, notice I finally made it down to ground level at the end of the forms.



Another showing the fresh pour, the formed section, and how it all relates to the wye.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I like the design, your thinking our of the box. Use up that yard space.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Here's an overall sketch showing the entire track plan drawn to scale. 

 


The shaded area beneath the deck is the covered storage. Ignore the 2nd approach to the storage (the one crossing the mainline), that was just my last ditch attempt to include a crossover, but it's obviously stupid to do it that way. This gives a good idea of how the wye will play into the overall plan. Obviously this design complements continuous running over operations, but industires can be added later. With the wye, no matter which way the train ends up facing, I can always pull it into storage facing whichever direction I want. There's still a healthy 12' of yard left beyond the bottom of the plan where a storage shed will evnetually go. Once the shed's established though... expansions may wander into this zone.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I assume that you will be running battery and/or live steam as you've drawn an electrical nightmare if you intend to run track power.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 21 Apr 2010 10:42 AM 
I assume that you will be running battery and/or live steam as you've drawn an electrical nightmare if you intend to run track power.

Yes sir, battery.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Correction, no problem with DCC and track power, difficult on straight DC or DCS. 

Regards, Greg


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Posted By Manco on 20 Apr 2010 04:30 PM 



Before the forms come off.

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/manco/RR/?action=view&current=IMG_0322.jpg
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/manco/RR/?action=view&current=IMG_0318.jpg

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/manco/RR/?action=view&current=IMG_0321.jpg
Another showing the fresh pour, the formed section, and how it all relates to the wye. 

I hope this works - I didn't want to repost all those other photos 

Manco - this is a wonderfully smooth surface - how did you do this with the stakes sticking up above the height of the forms? I'm obviously not very experienced with concrete work


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Frank,

First you fill the forms making sure you have a little excess. Then make sure the concrete settles down to fill all the voids and nooks and crannies by prodding the concrete, a little piece of rebar works well for this. You'll see the concrete moving down and settling, a little "patting" of the surface will finish this part off nicely. Then take a little section of board, a little wider than your forms, and "screed" the surface off. Basically, with the board resting on your forms, you see-saw the board back and forth. This gets the concrete 90% of where you want it by both scraping off the excess and depositing it where they may have been some low spots. The see saw action works better than straight dragging as the dragging tends to remove chunks of gravel leaving big holes in your surface. Let the surface dry a little, maybe 10-15 minutes... about how long it'll take you to fill a section of forms. Then come back with another piece of wood and "float" the surface. Basically you drag a small piece of board across the surface, diagonally, from one edge to the other. This is a very light motion with the board "floating" across the surface. You can't dig in like when you were screeding. This final floating step takes away most of the imperfections left in the surface and give the overall even look you see in the photo. It also pulls the concrete towards all the way to the forms and eliminates the gap that tends to form there. This leaves you with an even yet slightly gritty surface as you see in the photo. The gritty surface should help hold ballast vs. going the extra step with a metal float and making it glass smooth.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Manco,

Looks great so far! All I can say is do it the way you want and don't listen to any one.
You could say the sky is blue and some know it all will try and tell you it's not.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Manco on 26 Apr 2010 01:58 PM 
Frank,

First you fill the forms making sure you have a little excess. Then make sure the concrete settles down to fill all the voids and nooks and crannies by prodding the concrete, a little piece of rebar works well for this. You'll see the concrete moving down and settling, a little "patting" of the surface will finish this part off nicely. Then take a little section of board, a little wider than your forms, and "screed" the surface off. Basically, with the board resting on your forms, you see-saw the board back and forth. This gets the concrete 90% of where you want it by both scraping off the excess and depositing it where they may have been some low spots. The see saw action works better than straight dragging as the dragging tends to remove chunks of gravel leaving big holes in your surface. Let the surface dry a little, maybe 10-15 minutes... about how long it'll take you to fill a section of forms. Then come back with another piece of wood and "float" the surface. Basically you drag a small piece of board across the surface, diagonally, from one edge to the other. This is a very light motion with the board "floating" across the surface. You can't dig in like when you were screeding. This final floating step takes away most of the imperfections left in the surface and give the overall even look you see in the photo. It also pulls the concrete towards all the way to the forms and eliminates the gap that tends to form there. This leaves you with an even yet slightly gritty surface as you see in the photo. The gritty surface should help hold ballast vs. going the extra step with a metal float and making it glass smooth.



I knew once you tried it, it is not that diffacult. The most energy you exert is mixing the ding dang stuff. It looks great.


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Manco, 

Let me ask one more question - what thickness plywood is appropriate for forms that allows us to bend typical large scale radius curves...and let me define "typical" as 8' diameter (4' radius / LGB R3) or greater? 

Thank you for the detailed reply. This has certainly identified all the major areas where I failed. Forms too flimsy, screeding with a straight pull and no floating. For this home, as I know I'm not here permanently, I'm going to continue with a ladder of some sort but I will try concrete again when I land permanently. 

Thank you for your help!


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## Trainwreckfilms (Aug 19, 2009)

Use a concrete drill bit and concrete screws This is what it ended up looking like 10 years later...


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By fsfazekas on 27 Apr 2010 10:44 AM 
Manco, 

Let me ask one more question - what thickness plywood is appropriate for forms that allows us to bend typical large scale radius curves...and let me define "typical" as 8' diameter (4' radius / LGB R3) or greater? 

Thank you for the detailed reply. This has certainly identified all the major areas where I failed. Forms too flimsy, screeding with a straight pull and no floating. For this home, as I know I'm not here permanently, I'm going to continue with a ladder of some sort but I will try concrete again when I land permanently. 

Thank you for your help! 

I'm using about 3/8" plywood for the forms you see in the photos. Granted, I'm bending them at a 12' radius (24' diameter). While I can tell they certainly would be able to bend sharper without much issue, I certainly can't attest to their ability to go down to a 4' radius. Pretty sure the plywood would snap at any knots bending it that far. I would guess you may need to move to some type of synthetic or composite material at that sharp of a curve. I really think the masonite would work for curves as sharp as you're asking about. Don't leave it out overnight and let any moisture get to it though. And buy the thickest stuff they have. PVC lattice strip would also work fairly well however only being 1-1/2" wide may pose a problem.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Manco, thank you for sticking with your post through all of the opinion mess. I can understand someone offering advice if they believe it will possibly help your cause, but there have been a lot of dead horses beaten in this thread...

As far as the tighter radius curves, although I agree masonite would also work with the restrictions you have pointed out, one could also saw relief cuts vertically in the plywood to allow the plywood to bend easier. Cutting about half way through the plywood should work.


I have thought about a concrete bed, but I'm not sure about frost heave, so the more people trying it and posting about it the better. I'll be watching closely







I know Marty has had many harsh winters in Nebraska, I have just seen so much concrete crack, it's hard to imagine it not being a problem.


Take care,
Matt


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I use wooden "bender board" and easily do 8-foot diameter. The plastic bender board will do any diameter you desire.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I've never heard of this "bender board". Do you have a picture of the product itself? Sounds like just the stuff for making forms.


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks guys, masonite would work...in fact that's what I used to fit LGB R3 curves. And I know masonite and moisture don't mix  In my case I failed to provide enough stakes to securely support the form against the weight of the concrete. Kerfing the plywood also seems do-able if a bit time consuming. 

Here's a link I found to a bender board product http://www.bendaboard.com/ I think that any thin, flexible landscape boarder - wood or otherwise can fall into the "bender board" catagory though...use whatever is locally available.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Bender board is used for landscape edging. In our area, at home improvement stores, it comes in 8-foot lengths and is ~2 - 4" high by ~1/8" wide and is made of redwood. It is also made of plastic (~6-8") and can be rolled up to less than 8" diameter. They sell it right next to the redwood stakes that I use to hold it in place.


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## H-man (Jan 4, 2008)

When I fastin my track to bricks or concrete i drill a 1/8" hole and use 16D aluminum nails, cut the nail down to about 1.25" insert the nail in to the tie over the hole and hit it with a hammer. Holds well and is removable if needed by cutting the head off. This has held my track for years and the silver heads get painted brown. Could use a Galvinised nail as well. Steel nails are too hard. 
Will post a pic later. 

Howard


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By H-man on 30 Apr 2010 06:08 PM 
When I fastin my track to bricks or concrete i drill a 1/8" hole and use 16D aluminum nails, cut the nail down to about 1.25" insert the nail in to the tie over the hole and hit it with a hammer. Holds well and is removable if needed by cutting the head off. This has held my track for years and the silver heads get painted brown. Could use a Galvinised nail as well. Steel nails are too hard. 
Will post a pic later. 

Howard That's actually a darn good idea. Easier to hide than a tapcon head, and cheaper too.

Sorry no updates on progress, it has been nothing but rain rain rain here lately. On top of my work schedule, I'm not making any progress. I did the pour the section seen formed in the last set of photos, but that's about it.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Well there was finally a small window of opportunity amidst the incessant rain and all the overtime at work. I got another section poured finally. This time, I used a mixture of masonry cement in w/ the concrete. It made a significant difference in the consistency with the mixture. It's a lot more... I guess you could say... goupie? Much harder to mix, much harder to spread in the forms, and it tends to stick to the tools you use to finish it. Took me a lot longer than with straight concrete. All in all though, I really believe it helps bond the pour together making it more monolithic and should help the tendency of concrete to crack up into individual pieces over time.


Finished pour, one leg of the reversing wye.


Next section formed. This area consists of two turnouts seperated by a small section of straight in between. This is where the diagonal route seen in the plan diverges with the tip of the wye. Due to the fact that time is passing and trains are a long way from running, I decided to put more concrete roadbed on hold and simply reuse a portion of the ladder which is close to the ground and was not affected by the frost heave. You can see the ladder roadbed and track curving right into this latest formed section in this photo. We'll see how it works for now. I'll need to remove the track and "re-grade" the ladder portion with a sledgehammer though. The ladder through here will follow the ground instead of climbing as you see in the pic.


 

Just another shot of the newly formed section. Right hand turnout will go in the foreground and a left hander will be beyond that.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

One of the things I use for Sharp curves is FLASHING the aluminum metall that roofers use around chimneys. Also up against domrers. I use 1 ft rebar driven in the ground for support. I have also used this on straight sections. I will alternate the rebar. one on the out side one on the inside. This will leave a indent in the road bed but it can be covered up by back fill and ballast.


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## tadw (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi guys, I'm new here. Impressive form work! 

Another product that might be useful for forming sharp curves is called "wacky wood" or "bending plywood". It is plywood in which the laminations have grain all running the same direction, so it has rigidity in one dimension only. One example at the link below. We used to use it in a set shop where I worked. 

http://www.boulterplywood.com/FlexiblePlywood_4.htm 

http://www.boulterplywood.com/photogallery/wood names/new pics/wacky wood best.JPG 

Only thing - it is expensive - I think about $40.00/sheet for 3/8. 

Tom


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Tom, welcome to MLS! As you can see, there's a lot of usefull info that the members are willing to share! I was going to say "Jump on in!" but it looks as if you already have!







Do you have a layout of your own yet?


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

That bendy plywood looks like it's perfect for this. Regular plywood is working for me, but I also realize my curves are wider than your average outdoor layout. Even at 12' radius I've had to discard a few forms because they'll crack where there's a knot. If a fellow had a bunch of tighter 8' or 10' curves to do, it might be worth dropping the extra money for a sheet of the bendy stuff.

The last section has been poured and I've even began laying a little track in one area. Pictures soon.


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## tadw (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks for the warm welcome, Steve. 

I agree, MLS is a really great resource. I have been discovering that for the past few months! 

I have had a modest temporary indoor/outdoor layout for a few years. Now I am designing and building a more permanent outdoor one, starting with a terminal yard as one end of a point to point. 

Threads like this one are helpful and inspiring! 

Tom


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## BigBoy068 (Mar 22, 2009)

First thing Hi to ever one here at MLS you have given me some grate ideas for my pike but I have to admit that MANCO has turn on need to get stared. Just to keep this short my yard is flatter than most boards at your lumber yard. Then comes the fact that bad knees make a bad deal for having trains on ground wanted to do raised bed but those nice retaining wall blocks run big bucks for 120’ X 50’ E shaped layout not to speak of all the fill dirt. Now have lots of rocks and can get my hands on block real cheep so lay up block to run track on use rock hide block. Thanks MANCO 

BigBoy 068 now on track #1 to start pike.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Good! More large scale trains getting off the shelves and running outdoors where they belong! Look forward to seeing pictures of your progress, BigBoy. Keep us posted on how things go. One little hint on building your block wall. I'm no masoner by any means, but I got very frustrated at first trying to get the mortar to stick to the block. Don't try to use pre-mix mortar alone, you'll cuss and want to get the sledge hammer out. I had to mix masonry cement in with my pre-mix mortar in order for the mortar to start sticking to the block.


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## chaingun (Jan 4, 2008)

Manco, 
Great job and thanks for the pics! Welcome to the new folks! I have a around 1800 ft of mainline and about half of it on the ground â€" free floating â€" works OK for me on the desert. The other half was elevated but I am in the process of moving and I am in talking the high line down first. I will be rebuilding at the new place and I am very interested in concrete road bed. It will be a while before I can start the new layout so keep us posted on your project and how you like it when you start running trains again. Thanks again for the post! 
Best, Ted


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

Marty, is your long stretches of track powered or do you use batteries. It would seem that you spend a lot of time keeping the track clean if track power. But maybe you have a secret. 
Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

hahahaha! 

Marty is vehemently battery power... although he has a live steam elevated loop too... 

Greg


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

A long overdue update. Progress has been slowed due to the arrival of my firstborn son . Nevertheless, after going to HAGRs last weekend I of course was re-motivated to sneak a little time in for the RR. Finally laid some track over the latest section of roadbed.

 Track in this section is the new plastic display track sold by Train-Li. We'll see how it holds up in the elements. Roadbed in foreground is awaiting switches.


 View from opposite direction showing relationship to new track to rest of railroad.

 A detail shot of one of many ways to anchor pro-line strip ties. This is a tapcon screw through the screw holes molded onto the tie strips. It's more hidden than placing it between the rails and does not interfere with flanges


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

That's not fair.







If the screw does not interfear with the flanges what are we suppose to do with the time we should be spending solving problems







If this trouble free crap catches on this hobby could become real boring real fast









The road bed looks real neat and clean....You did a great job. Keep posting more updates.


JJ


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

And on top of being trouble free, I didn't spend any time cursing and fumbling with my home made rail bender to bend this stuff... just string the ties and anchor it down. I really hope this stuff holds up well outdoors. I spoke with someone with intimate knowledge of the production and apparently the rail being sold now does not contain any specific UV protection. That being said, it may still hold up for several years as it is. Future releases of this rail will likely contain the UV protection however, and I'm sure Axel will let us know when that occurs.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

I use that track on non-powered sidings and for the money, it's fantastic!

Congrats on the birth of your son....


Joe


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

That is looking good. I will be interested in how well trains run and if you have any wheel slip on the plastic track. Congrats on the new born. We all know you will have your son well trained to being a true Railroader. Later RJD


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Plastic track has been down for a while now and it definitely expands and contracts A LOT. It's pretty easy to see the difference since my roadbed is so narrow and just barely wide enough to accomodate the track (which I now regret). I have one curve laid with brass rail and the curve shown laid with the plastic rail. Both curves are the same diameter and length, so it's basically a direct comparison. It's obvious just by looking that the plastic rail fluxuates a lot more during the heat of the day and then in the cool of the evening. In the future, if I plan on using this plastic rail I will have to take some measures to account for this. I will either pour my roadbed wider so it doesn't push over the outside edge when it's hot or try to string a tangent when it's cold. That or, I will limit it's use to straights where expandable rail sections can be used to absorb the flex.


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Haven't updated in a while, but I am plugging away at the RR construction.  As tends to happen with do-it-yourself projects, I grossly underestimated how much labor and time this would entail. But so far I'm happy with the results and think they're worth the extra effort. I finally started working in the other direction now, the elevated area where a block wall with concrete cap is required to make the grade liveable. I'm on the ground on the other end of the RR so I need to work on the elevated section, which is dropping steadily at 2%, until I reach ground level so the grades will meet in the middle. Enough blabbing, here's some pics.


Overall shot of the "new" area that I haven't posted photos of for a while. I really don't like having a bridge up next to the fence... but I needed a place to put it and it breaks up the monotony of this area.


Here's the section I did today. I've decided to go with 2 strands of rebar in the concrete cap now instead of one; thus two uprights. This section gets it's conc. cap next. Due to the grade dropping, only an 8" block on top of a 4" block is required rather than the two 8" blocks stacked atop one another further up the grade.


And finally some track laid on top of the concrete cap. Ballast will be added later.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Josh,
Your layout is looking really good.
JimC.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Very impressive. Keep the pics coming. Later RJD


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

question about rebar in concrete.. 

there was an article in a magazine awhile back..(a year or three ago) I think it was one of those "if only I had known" type articles.. 
I dont recall the exact issue..(anyone know?) 
anyway, the guy had placed rebar inside concrete bridge supports..after a few years, the rebar rusted, and the pressure crumbled the concrete supports to pieces.. 

so what was going on there? 
and why doesnt it happen with the rebar in all the concrete roadbed everyone is talking about in these kinds of threads? 

thanks, 
Scot


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot 
Marc H. wrote it about his abutments. 
BUT 
He did not say IF the rebar was rusty before it went in. 

I buy rebar that has oil and kept in doors So there is no rust to begin with. 

If you buy from box stores most of theirs is kept out doors in the rain. thus rust.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

...Also wasn't the rebar exposed in the ground on those abutments? This rebar is encapsulated in the roadbed right? Makes a difference. As the water can wick up into the concrete thru the rusty rebar becoming a larger and larger problem as the years go on and more rust allows more water to wick inside the concrete until one winter when there is enough trapped moisture that freezes and cracks the abutment. Or am I way off base here? 

Chas


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

safe,,,at third...


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Very impressive set up ! It has a very clean, neat look to it. Of course, I am partial to elevated layouts ! 
* Posted By Manco on 28 Jul 2010 02:47 PM 
Haven't updated in a while, but I am plugging away at the RR construction. As tends to happen with do-it-yourself projects, I grossly underestimated how much labor and time this would entail. But so far I'm happy with the results and think they're worth the extra effort. I finally started working in the other direction now, the elevated area where a block wall with concrete cap is required to make the grade liveable. 



.


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

We always specify minimum 50mm (2") cover on all steel embedded in concrete, and 3" if the concrete is against the ground (local construction standards), I believe that caters for the reo having some rust to start with.. Makes it a bit impractical for us tho. Marty's onto it with the no rust + oil thing for less concrete cover. 

Cheers 
Neil


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

thanks guys..makes sense about the rebar (rust) 
and it makes sense about the rebar sticking out of the concrete, which would let in moisture.. 

but.. 

when you all are making concrete roadbed, how do you fully embed the rebar in the concrete? 
without having some of it stick out? or at least not having it *right* at the surface? 
I dont see how anyone is getting it deepy buried inside the concrete. 

I dont doubt it works!  
im not questioning the technique..I do believe it holds up well over time.. 
im just not seeing all these tiny quirks of construction yet!  

thanks, 
Scot


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have re usable forms for curves. I space them with plastic pipe. I attache the rebar to the plastic pipe with re bar wire. On the straight section I support the rebar on stones. 

At times I have inserted the rebar while the cement is still wet but sometimes that gets ugly.


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