# Use sand to replace topsoil?



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Riding Amtrak back from Poughkeepsie yesterday, I saw why the topsoil I ordered on April third hasn't arrived yet, and probably won't be here in the near future. For the entire six hour trip, every farm field, every wooded area I saw had standing water. The Hudson River is high, Erie Canal won't be opened for a while yet. There are rivers where there's normally a stream. The entire trip felt like I was on the City of New Orleans, riding thru the bayous, swamps and marshes.

All this does sound rather petty compared to the misfortunes that befell the South last week.

I have a large construction project on the railroad that I thought I'd have 3/4 done by now and I'm antsy as heck. I saw that the providers of soil and other such things can't take their heavy trucks out into a dirt pit because they'll get stuck. So it hit me this morning that perhaps I could use sand instead of topsoil. I haven't looked into what sand costs yet, because I'm not sure it's a suitable replacment for topsoil.

Questions:
I have four yards of soil on order. Would I need the same quantity of sand?
Is sand, sand? Or is playground sand not the same as any other?
Will sand compact properly to give me a proper base for my roadbed gravel on which the track and ballast will go?
Will sand wash out from under the roadbed?

I'm pretty good at tamping down the soil before I add the gravel. My original roadbed from 2009 is still firmly in place. But sand seems so....fluid.

Or should I just wait til the world dries out enough for the spring topsoil harvest?

JackM


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

hello 
a yard is a yard. i thank that the sand is better than top soil but not as good as gravel and not all sand is equal 
i'm by no means a expert. i do thank the sand is better it will drain better.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

JackM,
 
 I don't think I would go with sand. If it gets into the gears of your engines it could do some
damage. I would go with pea gravel.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

if itis stability you seek, and you dont need to work the ground afterwards for planting or else - 

on my former ranch i stabilized my roads mixing dry clay with crushed stone. (size between one half and one inch) 
the clay "glues" the stone bits together. (nearly as good as tar does) 
after more than twenty years the roads are still in very good shape. 

sand alone is not permanent. even sand mixed with crushed stone did not last more than about five years.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Uh... doesn't the Bible mention something about Railroads built on sand vs. those built on rock? 
Excuse the Sunday morning humor.... but I couldn't stop myself.... 

John


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Let me try to be more clear about what I'm asking.

I build up a mound of topsoil to form the base for the road. I tamp it down as firmly as possible, with a smooth flat top surface that forms the road bed.










I then cover with gravel and tamp it down - the small grey section at the bottom of photo. The landscape place calls these stones "O's and 1's" (aughts and ones).










First full layer of aughts and ones. A second layer will cover the topsoil more fully. Then what they call "stonesand" used as track ballast. This section has survived two heavy winters as is. I have moles (or Voles), but their tunnels have not harmed the base at all.

Since I can't get topsoil, I'm asking whether I could successfully use sand in its place. I wouldn't want to add anything like concrete since this sytem works so well for me.

JackM

The larger white stones are cobblestones used only to keep the grass from encroaching.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't think so. Sand won't have the binders soil does and won't stay in place. Mix it with clay and it might. 

I like the look, but have never seen it done that way. 

John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I would just wait for the soil.. 
you cant "shape" sand the way you have your dirt mounds formed..like you said, its just too slippery.. 
if you were using it to fill in a depression, sand would probably be fine.. 
but the way you want to use it, gravity would just make the sand level out..not what you want.. 
I would wait for the dirt..you already know that will work they way you want it to.. 

Scot


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a construction material called "base" that you might consider using. Base is a mixture of very small rock..crushed rock...that is mixed with (out here) decomposed granite. In fact, it often is just the by product of crushing gravel. It is used to make foundations for stackable block walls and under walks/driveways made from paver blocks. It's frequently used as an underlayment for road construction too...ergo it's name. Base is a material that when laid down and leveled can be compacted into a very strong foundation. It's porous, so water moves through it without displacing it (i.e. it drains well). 

When you put it down, you level it/shape it the way you want, then you tamp it while keeping it damp with a hose sprayer. Once it's dry, it's very hard and should make a good roadbed foundation. 


Base is sold at stores that sell/deliver sand and gravel. Some folks here might even call the material "fines"...but it's courser than the kind of "fines" folks use for ballast. As I said, this stuff is the byproduct of rock crushing, not quarrying as top soil is...so you're more likely to find it at a sand/gravel outfit than a landscape outfit.


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## cyrtonyx (May 1, 2011)

My techinique; 
The native soil here is a heavy clay like limestone base. Water tends to run off rather than pool or soak in. I first prepared the entire area with a very slight grade. I scraped the roadbed areas with a flat shovel, and tamped down the soil. The I layed a weed barrier fabric (no weeds on the Estancia Valley & Eastern). Then I put down a three inch layer of 3/4 inch gravel. Over this I put a leveling course of gray crusher fines. This was layed at a depth of about two inches or so to resemble a raised roadbed (some areas are higher and some lower). Then the roadbed was sprayed with a fine mist of water. The water 'locks' the crusherfines in place. I then layed the track. One the electrical conductivity was confirmed, I layed the ballast over the ties. 
The ballast was again the gray crusherfines, mixed with abouth 20% portland cement. Once the ballast was swept with a paint brush and the top of the ties exposed, I sprayed the track and ballast with a fine mist to disolve the portland cement and really lock the track into place.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Having never worked with sand for anything, I wasn't sure if the 0s & 1s would help the sand underneath to keep its shape. Apparently I'll be way better off if I wait. 

Having taken a week's vacation this week, guess I'll try to amuse myself by doing this whole project backwards: build the control panel for the pneumatic actuators on the switches that'll stay in the box because I can't lay down the "0s & 1s" because I don't have the soil to create the yard. Bummer. 

But I appreciate all your help. No use building the MacArthur Park* Railroad. 

JackM 

* melting in the rain.....


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

jack 
when i said sand i was thinking of the base that mike talks about if you were thinking of going to hd for playground sand forget it 
it will not hold any shape


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yep I'll confirm what other have already said. Dont use sand it will not stay in place. You wont be able to get compaction like you would soil. Yes there are different types of sand. Playground sand is usually a washed sand, so all the clay is washed out of it and there are no real fine particles. Plus, if your suppliers are like whats around my area, sand is usually twice to three times the price of soil. This is an engineer's opinion, so take it as you will. 

So, as much as you'd hate to wait, it would be prudent for you to wait.


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## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

The post that mentioned "base" it sound very similar to what is known as "crusher dust" here in Aust.
This is used as foundation to lay pavers for BBQ areas, it is tamped with a vibrating plate(wacker packer) then the pavers are layed straight onto it.
You could try using it and when it is layed but befor tamping sprinkle a dusting of dry cement over it, then mist it with a fine spray from a hose and let it set.
Decomposed granite can work real well.
These are the 2 materials that I have used in landscaping projects over the years and they last nearly forever.


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