# Newbie to G Scale



## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Ok I'm an HO guy who wants to move outdoors. I have a very specific prototype I want to model in G. It is the Coeur d'Alene Railway & Navigation Co. It operated for about 10 years in North Idaho's silver valley in the 1890's. It was a narrow gauge and they used three baldwin 2-6-0s. There aren't many pictures but I have enough to do it justice.

Here are my newbie questions.

When it comes to layouts how small becomes to small? In the HO world everyone tells you you need a wharehouse size room or it simply wont work. Here on the G scale side of things you all seem a little more forgiving of size constraints. The prototype only ran three small box cars and two passenger cars and a tender and thats all I will run as well. So short cars, short loco, short train. The prototype was a rickity thing on unballasted track and in general poorly designed, so "to sharp" of corners would only be fitting. I am less concerned with how a train looks on a corner than if it will perform on a corner. I understand the bigger the curve the better but what is a realistic miniumum curve that won't derail the cars I am talking about.

Its a narrow gauge, I would like to keep it narrow gauge. I have found that this is a vague issue in G scale. I like the looks of the 1:20 stuff but it seems expensive and not all that common. Am I wrong? Do they make G that can be run on O track like On30 on HO or HOn30 on N track? If I have to stick to G scale track what are my options for a Narrow Gauge 1:20 2-6-0 loco? Spending $500 or more on a loco is out of the question. It would be a deal breaker. Kit Bashing on the other hand I am up for. If I had to sacrifce narrow gauge for standard gauge (1:32 I guess it is) for cost I would do that. Bachmann on Ebay is what seems to be what I could afford. 

This will be a railroad layout that is outdoors. More about train less about garden although it will be a garden. I am excited about the prospect of playing with miniture plants. But the train design will come first and the lanscaping will be around it as scenery. The area I am hoping to steal from my wife will be ten feet wide (fence on south side, fence on east side, house on north side) and extend out into a more or less open area with the south fence being the only fixed factor in the lay out once it clears the house. The confined area extends from the east fence about 12-15 before the house stops and open yard begins. That doesn't mean I am free to roam though. I would say if I am lucky I may get to run down the south fence a total of 40 feet from the east fence. I realize this is hard to picture so lets say I have 10 by 40 with wiggle room on one end and the middle. I am hoping she will let me have a spur that runs down the side of the house that will be the train shed.

I have bored you all enough. Can a decent layout be done reasonable inexpensively with what I have described. I dont want much of an operation, I have that in HO, I want a runner with a siding or two or maybe throw in a couple of switches to make a short and long run. 

Im testing the waters. If I don't build this then the next option is a On30 static dsplay, and that isn't as much fun. On30 outdoors?

Oh one last thing. I was thinking all the track in the confined space would run the perimeter and have human space in the middle then narrow down as it enters the yard and widen again at the other end "dog bone styel" Double track so I don't have to fiddle with fancy electronics.

Devon


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Devon, 
welcome to MLS! 

everything you want to do is VERY doable in Large Scale!  
Your prototype railroad, being 3-foot gauge, is perfect.. 
1/20.3 scale (also called Fn3 scale) is 3-foot gauge modeling on 45mm track, and is very well established.
a good selection of locomotives and rolling stock are available. (and its growing all the time)


A quick look at some Fn3 scale moguls: 

The Bachmann "Spectrum Mogul" 








A beautiful machine..can be found for $250 to $300. 


And the Bachmann "Industrial Mogul" or "Mining Mogul"..called "Indy" as a nickname..just recently re-introduced.. 
about $150. 









and there are other Fn3 locomotives as well.. 

So you have a lot of modeling potential, as far as locos and rolling stock.. 
and you can use 45mm "G gauge" track to model 3-foot gauge, to the correct scale/gauge combination. 
no compromises as to track and gauge. 

As for your space, 40 feet is a lot! 
that can make a very nice sized railroad..im working with a 45 x 20 foot space myself, and thats probably a "medium sized" space when it comes to garden railroads.. 
Your width of 10 feet is on the narrow side, but still doable.. 
this would let you have 8-foot diameter curves, which is somewhat tight, but not terribly unreasonable.. 
(wider curves would be better..if you can find the room, but 8-foot curves arent a deal breaker..) 

So that should get you started!  
im sure others will chime-in with more ideas.. 

Scot


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

Same story here brother! This is a great site, and though i have done G scale before, you could call me new. Ask a question, get feed back, make a decision on what to do next, it's great! You are also free to share what you know through post replies and more forums. 
--JJWtrainman


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Absolutely! In addition to the Bachmann locomotives, there are the ubiquitous LGB Moguls! These are in a somewhat "rubbery" scale making them perfect for bashing and their motor blocks are _very_ tough! These are a bit more expensive but examples can be found on ebay for as little as $250 (I know because I did it!) They come in almost as many versions as the Big Hauler 10-Wheelers!


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Hey glad to hear I am not trying to reinvent the wheel. You G guys are way nicer than the HO guys. I love the Indy that thing is darn near perfect. The prototype does not have the tapered boiler and the last axel placement is all wrong on the mogul. The indy would be a great starting point and the price is friendly.

I had not run across the Fn3 scale (terminology) yet so that my broaden my horizon. I reallly want to keep it a narrow gauge. What about flex track in G?. I just started poking around so forgive me if I ask dumb question. Are there detailing parts out there I tend to be kind of a perfectionist? And what is this live steam thing or do I not ask?

Now I have to sell the wife on this idea.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Welcome aboard Devon! 

There is flex track available in G. I believe most of it is Code 250, and will look good with your small narrow gauge theme. Best advice I can give on track is to pick up a copy of Garden Railways magazine and do some research. 

Other considerations that may affect your track purchase decisions will be the type of power system you plan to use. If you plan to go to a battery R/C setup from the get go, that will open more options of track. 

I am also just getting started in building my backyard empire. I will be running a loop (about 235') around the perimeter of the available yard. (20 x 40 inground pool damages available space). I will be going track power, Aristo-Craft code 332 sectional track, with 20' diameter (10' radius) curves. Going the perimeter allows that great choice. 

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. 

Bob C.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

How small is "too small"? I used to be indoors with a 5' x 8' layout. Vic Smith's layout is even smaller.

The Indy will stay on r-1 curves (4' diameter) So will the LGB Mogul. If you have the room, they look better on r-2 or r-3 (5' and 6.5' diameter)... Neither loco (or anything else) much likes the Aristo-Craft r-1size turnouts - the Indy will pogo stick off the rails - so save your money on those.


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## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

With the Indie (slang for the Bachmann 2-6-0 Industrial Mogul) and the LGB moguls will be very happy plying 6-8ft diameter curves. Considering the minimal price differences between the Aristo, USA, & LGB 4ft diameter switches, I'd definately go with the LGB variant, IF you plan to go with brass rails. If you want stainless steel, then Aristo is really your only choice... unless you want to do the expensive/custom route. Personally, I'd look at going with a wide diameter switch, just to reduce the stress of cars going through the turnouts... less stress, less odds of a derailment.

The space you have described, while small by many accounts, is VERY workable for the size equipment you expect to run. Just keep in mind, once you get bit by the Live Steam bug, it tends to grow on ya







. You just might fall in love with that DASH-9 or SD70MAC you see at the shop the next time you are there. Even though none of my cars are very big at the moment, and I only run standard gauge equipment, I designed the clearances on my line to allow the huge K-class mikes to run if a visitor ever brings one over. The K's were used for width clearances, the USA autoracks are going to be used for overhang clearances, and the double-stacks were selected for vertical clearances.

As for the whole live steam thing... this is basically using butane gas or even coal to fire a boiler for propulsion. There are very small 2 & 3 axle engines that will run happily on the line you've described. You might be less than happy firing it unless you make provisions for a steaming track. The only exception MIGHT be the Aristo 0-4-0 with slope-back tender. This uses the standard plastic engine with a boiler inside the plastic shell. This however was a model of a standard gauge PRR Switcher A3-class, I think? This is a category that is best explored in depth before jumping in with both feet, to ensure you don't end up buying the rail version of the Edsel or Pinto.

Consider the old adage, you get what you pay for. The Indie had some drive train issues the last time they ran it. If memory serves, a 5-car train might exceed the engine's pulling capacity. The LGB moguls on the other hand have always had a rock-solid reputation, unfortunately because of that they can (but not always will) command a premium price, even on eBay.
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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome. I would urge you to get code 250 track, NOT the larger code 332 that Aristo/USA/LGB is. Your trains will look real on 250, like toys on the larger rail.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks to all of you. I am learning alot. But I have made to fatal mistakes already I am afraid. The first is finding this website. I was secretly hoping you would dash my ideas and tell me I couldn't do it. Instead you all encouraged me so now I have to start a new hobby.

The second was getting to converse by email with Bob Baxter. This was probably the biggest mistake. Now I have to kit bash an Annie 4-6-0. I love his work, the price is right, and It looks more like my prototype.

Thanks alot guys
Devon


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

hey im on the same side as Jerry visually -nothing looks as nice as code 250-nothing 

but............ 

heres my thought-to you as a starter guy 
code 332 (LGB size brass rail) is plentiful- 
available used-sometimes very inexpensively still despite high brass prices 

and 
it is rigid, strong, forgiving- 
the last is critical- 
if you , like me, have less than dead flat dead level ROW, the toy like large rail and large flanges DO improve running and DO reduce derailments 

and 
if the rail darkens 
and 
if you lay ballast right up to (and just over the ties), 

the rail can look pretty good and far less toy like 

advantage is that by using sectional track-you can easily experiment and 'play around' 
never underestimate this-youll be surprised what you learn after you run any chosen layout for a while-i always make changes 
(250 doesnt prevent this at all-it just more expensive an undertaking imho) 
(you can use LGB sectional stuff for indoors around the tree etc, if you decide to go 250 later-and it does seem to sell really well on the aftermarket used) 

otoh to jerrys point 
if you do it right the first time 
youll love 250 

perhaps Jerry can elaborate on compatability with makes of wheel flanges-are there any that simply dont work on 250 stock out of the box?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

perhaps Jerry can elaborate on compatability with makes of wheel flanges-are there any that simply dont work on 250 stock out of the box? 
None at all. Whatever runs on code 332 runs equally well on code 250--even the uber-deep flanges on LGB stuff from decades ago. I've had code 250 on the ground since 1996. I've never had any derailments on it caused by anything that would not have also caused a derailment on code 332 (which I'd been running outside for 16 years prior). The two tracks are virtually equal in terms of how they do in the garden. The key with any track is to make sure it's on a good, solid foundation. 

Later, 

K


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've had mine on the ground for 20 years, no problems. SVRR is the brand I have, in NS, they have it in several metals. AML, or AMS has it also and they have cheaper ties.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Devon, another fun thing about G-Scale is modifying stuff. Here are pix of my lightly modified Indy. I think it looks better...


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

Of course you can have a limited budget garden railroad that size! going to sites such as whole sale trains, ebay as you suggested, trainz.com, and only trains are sites that will help get the best price for the track and trains. Locomotive under $500 would be from Bachmann, also as you suggested. if you don't really care if you run modern trains or not, USA has switcher engines for about $300. 10' X 40' is plenty of space also. though many people say that the larger the curves the better, there is an ideal radius that makes the trains look "in their place" on the layout. What I am saying is that if track is too small, the trains look big. If the track is too large, the trains look tiny compared to the layout. Personally, I love 8-10 foot diameters because they will hold virtually everything except the largest locomotives. 
--JJWtrainman


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Well I am going to model Narrow Gauge 1:20.3 with a 2-6-0 being my loco. and after talking to many folks on here I think the tighter corners will suit a small narrow gauge better. The prototype wasn't much more than a big minning railroad. 

As for bashing I am looking forward to that. I do it in HO but G looks way better. I can actually hold the detail pieces in my fat fingers. I have already decided my First loco will be a kitbash project turning a 4-6-0 Annie into a 2-6-0 baldwin mogal. I like your Indy that is my style. I decided to go with the bashed 10 wheeler project thanks to Bob Baxter a member here that does great work. He has done one that is just what I am looking for. So he will mentor me. I am looking forward to it.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Don5 on 31 Mar 2011 03:44 PM 
Devon, another fun thing about G-Scale is modifying stuff. Here are pix of my lightly modified Indy. I think it looks better...



















Now THAT, Sir, just looks good. Did you build the cab yourself from scratch or is it one of the now-defunct Banta kits? Whatever - it looks great.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll second Tac's comments! That just improved the looks of the Indie 100%! I see a listing on ebay for a wooden cab kit for the Indie. Could this be one of them?


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Devon, 
One thing I've considered very heavily lately is track. I'm getting ready to lay down my first out door layout as an 1:20.3 Fn3 Scale railroad too. I put together a spread sheet showing cost of rail, tie strips and then combined final cost on several brands. I've settled on Llagas Creek 250 alum rail and Llagas creek tie strips. This combo came in the cheapest at $2.71 per foot, and in my opinion they have the best looking narrow gauge tie. I have seen it in person on a layout and it looks very good. Just be careful with flex track since some manufactures rail dose not fit other tie strips, if you want to mix manufacturers of rail and strips. This is a great site and they are more than happy to help. Welcome aboard! and have fun.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Posted By Nutz-n-Bolts on 01 Apr 2011 06:11 AM 
Just be careful with flex track since some manufactures rail dose not fit other tie strips, if you want to mix manufacturers of rail and strips. This is a great site and they are more than happy to help. Welcome aboard! and have fun. Ok you got me here what are you talking about rails and tie strips. is this different than HO. In HO you buy either flex track or preformed sections and as long as you stay with the same code you don't have (to many) issues mixing and matching. Are you talking about making your own track by afixing rail to ties? If so is this the way flex track in G works. I know they make preformed sections.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You can buy both ways. Most manufacturers sell pre-assembled sections of flex track that you bend with a dual-rail railbender, or you can buy the tie strips and rails separately and assemble it yourself. (Having done both, I much prefer the pre-assembled route. Well worth the few extra pennies per foot, and the dual-rail railbender will be worth its weight in gold.) What you need to be cognizant of, however, is that not all code 250 rail is created equal. They're all the same height, but the base of the rail may be different depending on the manufacturer. Llagas Creek's code 250 rail has a narrower base than that from Sunset Valley or AMS (Accucraft). So if you've got a few pieces of surplus Llagas Creek rail lying about, and a few pieces of surplus AMS tie strips laying about, well, they'll just have to keep laying about 'cuz they're not going to work together. The difference only becomes an issue when trying to use the incompatible rails on the tie strips. You can mate the tracks just fine with regular rail joiners (the slip-on variety) or with something like a Split-Jaw rail clamp. 

Later, 

K


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

tac, U guessed it - Banta kit. Stack is from a toy battery powered loco scrounged from Goodwill. I liked the Bachmann Indy, but never thought the cab was scaled very well. Actually seems that the overall scale of this loco changed with the new cab. Probably becuz the mogul type seems to have been produced in an array of sizes from little Porters to big freight steamers. I like little backwoods stuff.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

SVRR code 250 rail will accept AML(or AMS) code 250 ties. Seems a bit more flexible than their ties.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

The Delton/Aristo c-16 cab is a big improvement on the indy if you can't afford a Banta.









If you get a c-16 tender shell too, it could get even better......
http://narrowmind.railfan.net/BLW/260-maui.jpg


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