# Knuckle couplers at different heights?



## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Just got a new to me LGB stock car with kadee(?) couplers and it will not couple to my Bachman cars with their style knuckles. The LGB couplers sit up a lot higher, almost the height of one full knuckle. Tried to install LGB style loop & pin couplers but I can't figure out how to make them work. The knuckles on the LGB car are mounted to a draw-bar type contraption mounted to the truck.

Anybody got an idea how to mount the LGB style loop& pin or bachman couplers or get the height on the KD's down?

Thanks!


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used 831 truck mount KD's on Aristo, USA, and LGB, for a long time with no problems. 
Best thing is to change them all over to KD's. Most manufactures don't line up with each 
other, or will not couple. 

Don


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Kadees couplers come in two sizes, G and Gauge one which is smaller. They also come in three basic types. Straight shank, Offset and Large Offset. The large offset type are typically used for truck mounting. They are the easiest to install and work on virtually all brands with minimal cutting and drilling. For the purist, the Gauge one straight shank couplers are used. They get mounted directly to the body. These can require shims or even cutting of the body of the car to get the line up of the coupler at the correct height. The middle of the road offset shank can be used in some cases when body mounting if you do not want to cut the body. What ever type you choose, buy a coupler height gauge from Kadee. It will allow you to adjust the couplers to the same correct height each time.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not sure why the LGB hook-and-loops aren't mounting to the trucks, since Kadee's truck-mounted couplers are typically a screw-in replacement that don't require much (or anything) in the way of modification to the stock coupler mount. However, without seeing your installation specifically, I'm just going off of experience from l-o-n-g ago. (I use body-mounted Kadees, so truck-mounted installations aren't my forte.) There could have been changes in how LGB mounts the couplers over the years, or some other oddity that's playing into your situation. 

You may be best off seeing if there's someone with whom you can trade trucks. Lots of folks use body-mounted couplers, and may have a piece of rolling stock they haven't gotten to converting yet. They may be more than happy to send you their hook-and-loop trucks in exchange for yours since they're going to lop off the coupler arm anyway. (Alas, I don't have any here, or I'd offer to do so myself.) 

Later, 

K


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks guys, I'll have to get some photos so you guys can see what's going on. 

I'm not a purist, I just want to run trains.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

If you like the Bachmann couplers, you may be able to mount them to the LGB car after you take the Kadee couplers off the truck mount. I don't know if the LGB couplers are the same as the Bachmann ones, I've never had any LGB stuff, but it seems like the trucks are the same. Of course, I could be wrong on that.


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

LGB on left, Bachman on right 


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/spf150/LGB/12262013002_zps5e43f679.jpg


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/spf150/LGB/12262013005_zps27e3bde9.jpg

How do I post photos on this site? [ I M G ] tags or HTML?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Your cattle car has a kadee #831 which steps up the coupler to mate with couplers mounted on the car body not a coupler tongue. The kadee #385 is a straight shank that should mate with the bachmann truck mounted coupler. The other option, which I prefer is to put an 831 on the bachmann car.


Chuck


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## zoro (Feb 8, 2010)

Never owned anything with the KD's. How do they work, just by tension on the knuckle? Doesn't have a release like the Bachman does.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Put Kadees on everything is the best way to go. Truck mounting is pretty easy. The Kadee you show is close to correct height.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zoro, 
The KDs are held close by a spring, the actuator arm that hangs below pivots the coupler face open. It is magnetic and actuated by magnets mounted between the rails. 

John


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Zoro;

For the "G" sized Kadee couplers, many of us use a medium flat-bladed screwdriver as our uncoupler of choice. Gently insert the blade between the opposing knuckles, then twist. The knuckles are popped open, and the cars separate. Some older guys will paint the flat screwdriver blade blaze orange to make it easier to see, but that is a personal choice.

Yours,
David Meashey


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Zoro 

One of the main aspects I love about the Kadees, is that you can slowly back the train up to the car you want to couple up to and without ever having actually bumping the car, the couplers couple. Aristo Craft couplers and most others have to be hit to actuate the coupler to close up. Some have to be slammed. There are those that believe all their frt cars have to have metal wheels and I've installed them on most. But, it I had to choose between metal wheels and my Kadee couplers, I'd pick the Kadees.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"Some have to be slammed."

Randy;

Sadly, that can also be prototypical. When I ran the H K Porter steamers for the tourist railroad, we had a coach that was nick-named "the American Flyer car." You had to smack into the coupler sharply to get the pin to drop. The bad thing was that there were usually 3 or 4 tourists in the gangway watching you couple-up. As an engineer, I learned the trick was to hit the car sharply and set the independent brake at the same time. That way the coupler pin dropped, but the tourists didn't.

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cool story Dave. 
All my couplers when new required a firm push. As weather has aged them, grit has entered between the plastic faces and more force is required. 

My preference is to let them run. I want one train in the hole as the other train runs. I've got two locos, a passenger and a freight, each has it's own consist. To stage different scenairios I might place different cars on spurs, but for the most part I like to watch them go. As long as the couplers hold together, I don't mind too much the slam. 

If you lean towards Operarations and want to drop and pick up cars by the local, or make up trains in the yards, working couplers are more desired. R/C uncouplers are in the works and easy opening mechanisms are a necessity for small servo motors. 
The KDs are a nice coupler, but I'm not going for a fine scale look, I'm only trying to make my toys look realistic. I run Aristo Classics and they offered me a choice a larger Delton lift pin coupler or Aristos more modern 1:29 coupler. 
Seems I'm always swimming against the school, I think of my toys as being 1:24 and Cape Gauge is no more damning than On30 was when I modeled On3 ... who cares? In my mind the modern couplers are more in scale with a 3/4 Janey.... 

If you want to mix and match cars and makers, it makes sense to pick a coupler for all cars, in my case I picked a manufacturer, now out of business... 

Happy Rails 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Hmm, that looks like a stock coupler mount to me. If you've got a "stock" LGB or Bachmann coupler, it should be a screw-in replacement. I did check my parts bin and found a truck-mounted Kadee coupler and a Bachmann truck bolster with the arm attached to it (alas, no coupler). To get the Kadee to fit, I would have to saw off a little round disk-like extension on the end, but it would then just screw directly in. Can you post a photo of the coupler you're trying to attach? 

BTW, to attach photos using the quick reply button, use the following code: 


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[img]photo URL here[/img]
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 and don't forget the quotes. 

Later, 

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB hook and loop couplers should be a direct swap for the couplers you have in the picture. Remove the Kadee on the cattle car and the bachmann on the coach (?) and replace with the LGB. One screw holds the coupler in place. There should be a black plastic spring with the Hook and loop. The tab with the hole is screwed into the coupler tongue with loop and the other end of the spring is a small pin. That is placed in a hole on the bottom of the hook, just behind the small tab hanging down from the hook.


Chuck


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

If you are new to Large Scale, know that your problem is not unique. Almost no manufacturer's couplers will couple to anothers. And they don't all line up because there are three or more scales in Large Scale, which means that 3.5 feet (or whatever the actual height above rail head they are supposed to be) is different. And narrow gauge equipment didn't have to interchange with other RR's so they often were different from standard guage. 

I've got about half a dozen different manufacturers' cars. Even the ones that look similar don't couple as a rule. I tell people to stick with one manufacturer until they begin to fill out their roster. 

Without turning this thread into a Kadee Rah Rah, note that properly mounted Kadees will couple with each other, and if the other couplers are mounted at the correct height, with them too. A Kadee height gauge is required, though, IMHO.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

From my experience, most manufacturer's knuckle couplers will easily couple with each other. The one exception is the AristoCraft couplers. I have, Bachmann, USAt, LGB, Accucraft, and Kadees on my cars and engines. The Accucraft NG couplers will not mate with Kadee gauge 1. But, since I only have a couple of logging cars with the gauge 1 couplers it isn't a problem. Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm having a similar issue as well. I have Bachman and aristocraft locos and Bachman and USA trains cars. They all seem to line up faily good and connect. But I got a kit for a Gramps tank car and built it recently. Well the coupler, while very authentic looking, is way to high. All of my other rolling stock has truck mounted couplers. But the tanker has a body mounted coupler. Any idea on how I can fix this issue? here are the pics. Tanker on the right and a USA wood side reefre on the left.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Two choices come to mind, I'm sure there are others.

1. Find a pair of trucks with a coupler tongue and use a USAt knuckle or a Kadee #835. Both of those will mount on the tongue.

2. Get a set of Kadee #831s and mount them on one end of two cars. This is a step up shank coupler and you should be able to put the tank car inbetween them.

The tank car might still be high. It looks like it is a 1:20.3 (Fn3) model and the other car a 1:22.5/24? If this is a problem you might try smaller diameter wheels on the tank car.

Chuck

Whose kit is it? That might give more information as to another fix.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

The kit is Phils narrow gauge kit in 1: 20.3 (F gauge) 

Here's a link with some pictures of how the bolsters and all are constructed. In the picture that shows the bottom with the cross bar glued on, there is a round "puck" that glues to that that the trucks are bolted to. Maybe shave some of that down?

http://www.philsnarrowgauge.com/GRAMPS.html 

I'd like to keep the coupler as it is on the tank car. I was thinking smaller wheels but not sure it would be enough. Maybe smaller wheels and try and remove some of the bolster that the trucks mount to. But since it's all wood glued together, that may be a bit of a chore since the kit is now completed. 

Any other ideas I may have missed?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Bread ties, nowadazes paper covered wire is more likely found in a florist shop. 

There isn't a good cure, unfortunately you are mixing scales, the tanker scale is 45mm = 3' 
The Aristo 45mm = 4' 8 1/2" 
The Botchman coupler is low by all standards, put it's gear box on the bottom of the car and use Chuck's advice on off set couplers and convert to KayDee s. 
Even if they were at the same height, not all brands mate. So if you want mixed scales you'll need a standard ... or tie 'em together with wire ties. 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Smaller wheels aren't gonna do it. The tank car coupler is (most likely) mounted at the "standard" body mount height of 1 1/8" centerline. (This stems from the Kadee standard for their "G" scale coupler.) The truck-mounted USA coupler is at 3/4". That's 3/8" you'd have to make up, which means you'd have to drop the wheel diameter 3/4", which isn't practical. You could perhaps lower the coupler just enough to where the bottom of the tank car coupler catches the top of the truck-mounted coupler, but it's hardly a reliable solution for two reasons. First, one is body-mounted, the other is truck-mounted. Those two generally don't play well together, especially on tighter curves. Also, the shank on the USA coupler is very thin, so it's going to flex up and down quite a bit. When you're already only hanging on by a whisker, that's a recipe for things coming undone. 

If you want to run this tank car in with your other cars whose couplers are at the lower height, you're going to have to change the couplers on the tank car. You're not going to find a Kadee coupler that will lower to the 3/4" height because that's not Kadee's standard. Your only option is to retrofit the car with trucks that have a coupler mount attached to them. 

The only other option would be to build "transition cars" with a low, truck-mounted coupler on one end and a high, body-mounted coupler on the other. You'd always have to have the tank car sandwiched between these two cars, but short of chanigng the couplers/trucks on the tank car or using bread ties, that's about the only way this car's going to run reliably in your train. 

Later, 

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, I was thinking that the Kadee 831 might still be a tad low. That is why I suggested a smaller diameter wheel. I did not mean to suggest that all of the difference be made up by smaller wheel. Perhaps an eight of an inch at Most. Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks for the inputs. I'll take a close look at it when I get home an do some measurments to see how I want to go. Right now, everything except for the tanker is truck mounted. So that would be a lot of coupler changing to make everything match the tanker.

So I guess I'll either figure out a solution for the tanker, or just use it as a static display.

I'll post up what my solution is once I fiugre it out.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

You don't have to change out all your couplers. Only on one end of two cars. When you are not running the tank car, those two cars will still couple. Over the years, I have changed out all my truck mounted straight shanked to truck mounted step ups. Most cars now have the 831, but some have a USAt stepup coupler. Unfortunately, they stopped making them a few years ago. They were easy to install and worked very nicely. 

Chuck. 

PS, Phil's kits build up into a very nice cars. I have built a couple. I hope you can run it and not have it as a shelf queen.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB also make a step up knuckle coupler that should easily bolt to the truck tongue on the USA cars. I just checked the product on the Train-LI site. I had one pair as hand-me-downs, so I know that they will match the Kadee 851 couplers. The two problems I see are: 1. I'm not sure whether the LGB offering will still be high enough, and 2. The cost per pair is $15.95, which I think is STILL greater than Kadee 851 couplers. I figured I would mention them as an option, "just in case."

Yours,
David Meashey


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave:

They should work, but the only problem is that you can get 2 pair of Kadees for the price of one pair of LGBs. In my opinion the Kadees look better. I do have an LGB knuckle couple on the tender for my Bachmann Connie, but it is screwed to the frame not the trucks. He might have to screw it to the top of the coupler tongue instead of the bottom where it usually goes.

In fact on some cars I have located the USA knuckle on the top of the tongue to bring it up to body mount height. This works as long as the bottom of the end beam is flat and no surgery is required.

Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Chuck, you are right in that Phils kits build up into nice cars. A buddy gave it to me for christmas. Seems he picke dit up at a show in Portland back in '09 and nevre did anything with it. Now that I'm switching from N to G, he decided to "help" me out and send it to me.

I'd like to figure out a way to make it work so that it's not a shelve queen. I also want to be able to build my consist in any manner I wish, that's why I had said to change out all the couplers to body mounts that would line up. I'll do a bit of studying and measuring when I get home and figure something out. If I remembr right, the couplers are aristocraft ones. They are really nice and detailed.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The couplers in Phil's kit should be Accucraft, not AristoCraft. At least that is what I got with my kits. Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

I think your right Chuck. Being new to all of this, I'm still learning the different manufactures.  

As for the couplers, there is a 1/2 inch difference in height. So I have come up with two ways to fix them: 
1. Cut off the mounting block on the tanker car and add in a 1/2" piece of wood to lower it 1/2" This would allow it to connect anywhere within a consist and to any car. It would also align the "glad hand" as well which I would like to install more on my other rolling stock. But would it still look right? 
2. Remove the truck mounted coupler from two of my other cars and install a body mount coupler at the right height. This would not change the design of the tanker. But it would leave only one place for the tanker to connect. And would it look right haveing 2 different heigth couplers on a car? 

I guess my last, and most expensive resort, would be to change all of my couplers to body mounts. So how did the railroads deal with this issue? I've heard they had movable couplers to correct for the difference in height. 

Time to do some studying.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Crusty:

There is no need to put body mounts on all your 1:22.5/24 cars. Truck mounted couplers that you have are fine. The Kadee 831s do not have to be a permanent switch. Once you have them assembled you can change out couplers in less than a minute. There is one screw to remove the existing coupler and then use it to mount the kadee. 

Here is a picture I just took of an 831 on an LGB gondola (right) coupled to a Phil's reefer (left) with an Accucraft coupler.










Another thing to do is pick up an pair of USAt or Bachmann trucks and mount them with the 831s. These could then be put on any cars you want. and the put the originals back on at the end of your session.

The center line of the Accucraft coupler is 1 inch above the table top. 

Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks Chuck. Yes I understand it's a quick swap. But I'd rather make it a permanant solution, not something I need to keep swaping around.

So it's either a step up coupler or body mount coupler on the end of two other cars or modify something else.

I'm wondering if I can maybe take a step up coupler and make it into a step down coupler? That way it will still fit in the mounting pocket on the tank car and may look more realistic.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

No because the fist will open in the same direction on both cars. There is nothing to clasp. Chuck ps Bachmann has a step down knuckle coupler. Call Kadee and see if they have a step down. I got one of theirs years ago for the front of an LGB Sumpter Valley Mallet.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Maybe we are not on the same page. I was thinking, remove the actual coupler from the mount and flip it over, then use it as a step down so that it would open the correct way. 

But since you say there may be a step down coupler already, I'll look into that. Thanks for the help.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It would work if you did it on both cars, but then they wouldn't mate with any other cars.

Chuck 

Here is my interpretation of what you are saying. I think you are talking about the middle example where only one coupler is inverted. Are you talking about the bottom example where both are inverted? They would not couple in the middle example.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Crusty:


Here is a link to a thread on the Bachmann large scale forum where I talked about the Bachmann step down coupler. I needed it on my Shay. There are some pictures of the coupler.

Bachmann step down coupler 

Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Chuck, I went and built up a drop down box and tried that. But it didn't work. There is too much overhang from the truck pivot to the coupler and not enough movement in the coupler, so the car continues to derail. So I'm looking at going with a truck mounted coupler to alleviate my problems. My only other choice is to go with larger turns and larger turnouts. But with my limited space, I don't see that happening. 

I'm also having a similar issue with my Bachman 3 truck Shay. I've started a thread about that one looking for some advice. Thanks for all of your help and ideas.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the diameter of your curves and turn outs? Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm not sure. I beleive the curve is possibly 4'. The turnouts I don't know as I bought them used. Any easy way to tell?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Crusty, put your 4' diameter curve on top of the curved portion of the switch. Are they similar or different? The next size up switch has an 8' diameter curve. It is a lot bigger. If in doubt, measure the length of straight track part and let us know how long it is. Some switches have the stock number molded into the plastic in the underside. Chuck


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Its' probably the 4 foot one then as it's short. I do have an 8' dia curve but didn't set it up on this small layout I have in the garage on a shelve. Maybe I can pull it down and see if it will fit and then try some things. But I don't have any other switches.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Your GRAMPS car might run on 4' diameter curves with truck mounted couplers. Body mounts will swing too far out for the leading and trailing car with truck mounted couplers. One or the other will get pulled off the track. Chuck


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## Sjoc78 (Jan 25, 2014)

I've run my Accucraft trains on LGB R2 tracks with out issue, including my K-27. It doesn't look great but the body mounted couplers do work on the 2.5' radius.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

78, I think the problem is mixing body mounted couplers with truck mounted ones, on very tight curves (4' diameter). I think your extra foot makes a big difference.


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## Crusty Old Shellback (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok, well this weekend I pulled down my box of 8' curve track and replace the smaller 4' curved track in my one corner. I hooked up the tank car and it runs smoothly thru the curve. So I guess my solution wil be to get rid of teh smaller curves and turnouts. The box cars and F1AB units look better as well going thru the 8' curves.


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