# NOT for outdoor use. Plastic rail



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I know this has been talked about. And I installed about 15ft with exspanion joint and loose in ties.










Its feb and 40 degrees out. I replaced it with alum rail.
I gave it a chance.
only for indoor use .


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty; 

OUCH! Kinda' resembles some of those photos taken after the New Zealand earthquake. 

Good to know that you have an alternative location for it indoors. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow....great experiment Marty. Looks like it shrank in length from the cold and pulled out of the rail joiners...then expanded from sun heating. What a mess! Thanks for the great photo. Sure tells a story.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can we have a few more details? 

The near end looks like normal split jaw (or hillman) clamps. 

Is there an expansion track (the ones with the sliding rails) at the far end? 

I'm assuming that right now the bends are sun kinks, is this right? 

Are those kinks "stuck" into the rail? 

Thanks, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thar ya go. Loose in ties explains the problem. Mine has been out doors for a year now and lays just fine. One must learn to anchor rail as it loves to run or retreat. Later RJD


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

From some of the rail I see around here on real RRs, that looks VERY prototypical! 

In the photo, the left side rail at the near end, is that slid to the right or is it raised up from the surface? (or both?)


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm........I wonder how Jim Carter's (pimanjc) plastic track is faring?


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

I have mine in a freight yard, screwed down to concrete backer board and ballasted and have no problem with it....did not get below zero here, but it has been a cold winter...


Joe


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

More detail?? don't over think this. I used rail clamps at each end with an exspation joint in middle(as I said). having the rail free to move in the ties. 
and yes it does not seem to straighten out. 
I did run trains a couple weeks ago and it was fine. 
It would probably work on dead end spurs .


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Good experiment, As I'm a little farther north from you, but our weather is about the same. You would experience the major extremes when it comes to temp. Since you said the last two weeks, I would assume you got that cold -20 degree temp and since it has now warmed up to around 65-70 degrees that is a lot of temp change in a 2 week period. 

Too bad, that means the "sparkys" can invade your steam loop addition...


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe I'm missing the point? It seems that the track pulled out of the rail clamp when it contracted and then couldn't push it's way back into the rail clamp when it expanded. I'm guessing that it wouldn't have occured with a regular rail joiner? 

Robert


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I placed the rail clamp there like I do other rail to aid in contracting. The purpose of the exspantion joint is to allow flexing at one end. yet stay close to the other rail. 
Yet the curvy stuff will stay in the rail. I have rail laying in the shop after a year ,and its still curvy.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, 
Do you think this would have happened in your "covered terminal"? Was this strictly temperature involved or sun related or both? I believe it is sold as only indoor and for display track so I know we are potentially asking more of it than it was meant to do but even if it was covered outdoors I think it might work. The expansion here is much different than we are used to with any of the metals we use for rails outdoors. 

Food for thought. 

Chas


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you mean brass rail, as opposed to plastic rail? I don't live that far from you, (Colorado) and expansion and contraction, and frost-heave, freeze-damage, is brutal in our clime. Even for the railroads, and especially for pipelines, highways, etc. Shoot, it's hard to keep a fence from getting taller every year around here! 

Maybe some kind of expansion joint similar to what the prototypes use might be needed for long stretches of track. It seems like your trackbed there might be pretty unforgiving, so the curves can't really "creep" to help with tangent track expansion during extreme hot and cold weather. 

For those that don't live near Marty and I, two weeks ago, the temperatures went from the minus 25, minus 20 range to, a week later, in the 50's and 60's. That's a 75 to 80 degree variance practically overnight! At least within a day or so... 

I know a recent article in Progressive Railroading talked about "temperature matching" rail while it was being laid on the BNSF, they would figure the expansion joints according to the current temp of the rail, and even heat it to get the correct expansion lengths. I'm thinking at the high 90's, we would have our rail almost butted against each other, and there may be a signficant gap at extreme lower temps (below -10 or so.) And of course, wind chill is a significant factor in Nebraska. (That's why they don't have to clean the streets there, the wind does it for them j/k). The clamps may just not be an option, perhaps the rail needs to expand both directions? 

Robert


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks for testing so we don't have to!!!!

Just think what heat/cold would do to styrene outside!!! I'm sticking to wood, metal and concrete!

Dave V


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not tring to bash the stuff, I'm always open to try many things. (not all) Even going to alumn rail is to save $$$ and its cheaper to ship. 
I first used this plastic as guard rails on bridges and the same thing happened with small pieces. 
I will use this for storage areas indoors.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if plastic rail will require a different type of rail joiner? Plastics tend to cold flow easier than metal so a simple foot-grip type may not hold well enough. Plastic rail may require either gluing (solvent weld to make it all one homogenous unit, like continuous welded rail) or a joint-bars like on real rail (bolts through the fish-plates and the rail web).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the additional detail Marty... I have a large monitor and could not see the location or existence of the expansion track. 

Your information is valuable to many, so I guess I can endure your barbs for the greater good.. 

Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The weather finally permitted getting out and working on the layout today. Mostly I was cleaning up leaves and other debris that didn't get picked up last fall when I got pneunomia. I have run the snowplow over the plastic track with few problems. I'll try to take a picture tomorrow and see if there is any warpage. The only downside I've seen so far is that the track is slick when snowy. The locos have trouble getting traction on grades. Probably, a good brushing with the sheetrock sander track cleaner will take care of that problem. Both my rails and the track are secured in the 25ft of plastic I use. My track is in 5 or 6 ft. section length. 










Jim C.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Barbs??? don't mean to.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So RJ and JC (what's with these 2 letter names?) secured the rails and ties, and Marty secured the ties maybe every foot (guessing by the silver dots I see on the ties) but not the rails. 

OK, so maybe we're learning something here. 

One thing that is disconcerting is the report that the kinks seems to stay after being "baked in". 

Is this a fair assessment so far? 

Greg


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have seen the wavy rails Marty was talking about from his bridge guardrail applications. And I can say he is correct, they have a permenant shape and will not go back to straight again. I would like to see how JC's is holding up. I would think the plastic rail would fair better in more temperate climates. The extreme temp swings we have her in the midwest can really wreak havoc on expansion and contraction. 

Chris


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd be more interested in seeing how they wear under the weight and pressure of the steel/metal/brass wheels on most rolling stock. Bachmann wheels on their locos are pretty rough, and could eat through that plastic pretty quickly. 

What's the price difference vs. metal rail track? 

Robert


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I ran two sd45s and 8 heavyweights around my layout for about two hours today. About the only place I didn't have some derails due to frost heave or hidden debris between rails or in switches was on the plastic track section. Since the track was put down, we have had temperature extremes of +112F to -17F. The only problem I've had with the track is that it is slick when wet, as previously mentioned. 

Typically, one inch #6 sheet metal screws were driven through the plastic rail clamp flanges that come molded into the ties. Five foot sections of track were used. Since the track was put down in hot weather, the track ends were butted as expansion would be at maximum. I can't tell that the track has moved at all. The structure under the track is Plastic wood ladder support system, with window screen wire under the track ties to prevent ballast loss. The "rock" is molded concrete/mortor mix applied over 1/2" metal fabric. The total length of plastic track is about 25ft., with LGB R3 switches on both ends. 

* Plastic track section is on the right, past JJ's Crossing and around the curve at Cozad Canyon.*










*Wide view of plastic track section in foreground from JJ's Crossing to Cozad Canyon bridge.*










Hope this information helps.

JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, you know I've been taught by a real 1:1 track guy, and what you have done JC meets how prototype track "works" rails anchored to ties, ties anchored in roadbed as was explained to me. 

As I understand the theory, this is the only way to evenly distribute the expansion and contraction which must occur. You cannot stop it, but you can control it. 

It looks like you have proved the theory in this case. 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Cozad Canyon??? so ,,I have a lot of open space between my ears ,,HA!!!!!!! 
OK,


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 19 Feb 2011 05:21 PM 
Cozad Canyon??? so ,,I have a lot of open space between my ears ,,HA!!!!!!! 
OK,


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I know, Nick, I set you up for a good one. I'm bad. 
Now wheres my green kool-aid???


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)




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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

looks like cherry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

HEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where's my truck?







Some one stole my truck







Someone call the cops


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

*I want to be clear about my track laying methods.* 
Although the plastic track discussed above was anchored about every foot, that is not my usual way of laying track. 
The track on the Hedgeapple RioGram uses concrete roadbed, inground ladder, elevated ladder/trestle, and ballast fill, depending on the location and proximity of tree roots under the roadbed. 80% of the mostly brass track is hand bent using a Train-Li track bender. The ties are secured to the concrete or ladder about every 18 inches. The rails float in the ties, as taught to me by Marty Cozad several years ago. The only section of track I consistantly have trouble with is the back straight behind the hedgeapple trees floating on gravel ballast. The rails in that section are secured to the ties. 

*On a lighter note,* I have run trains for two days in a row after going months without running due to health. Tree debris was a bit of a problem until cleaned. Saturday I had a consistant derail caused by pinched gage on a curved track. A hedgeapple had fallen directly on the rail. After re-gaging on Sunday, there were absolutely no derails in four hours of running with my grandkids and me alternating the controlling. 










It sure is nice being able to just back the trains into the shed and close the front plexaglas door and the lifting lids for security and protection at the end of a Day's run.










*JJ.... Your truck is in the shop for maintence and will be back out to your crossing soon. There was some problem with the rear axle caused while attempting to move two massive rocks by pulling them with a heavy duty logging chain.*

Jim Carter


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Glad to hear you are feelin better J.C. Now on to fun "Runnin Trains" Regal


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I've heard that plastic track could be sunk in wet concrete (sort of like trolley tracks), which would anchor them 100% everywhere. The late Peter Jones, I think it was him, did it; although it doesn't get as hot as H_ll in Wales as it probably does in Kozad Canyon  

Dave V


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm with Marty, don't overthink this. I've had similar results as Marty. The rail waved, and then the waves "baked" in if you will. If I removed the wavy rails from the ties the waves were permanent and the rail did not bounce back as when it is shipped to you. And my rail WAS somewhat secured within the ties as some of my rail clamps were situated inbetween two ties effectively keeping the joint itself from wandering. The ties themselves were anchored on each end, and then in the middle of a 12' radius 90 degree curve (19' of track): essentially every 10'. I am not bashing this product either. I originally had extremely high hopes for this product and approached it with the greatest of anticipation and hope that it would prove a successful and viable option for outdoor battery use. At first I thought it was my fault and thought my joints needed to float more, but since Marty did it the opposite of me and had same results... I think we can call this one. Edit: I should mention my joints were staggered like prototype.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a big difference between anchoring the ties every foot, and having a joiner between 2 ties at a much greater interval. 

JC's construction parallels prototype, where the rail is secured to the ties with rail anchors. It's a proven technique. 

When you free float rail, it's a crap shoot, when the rail contracts, will it contract evenly all over the place, or will the gaps form in one location... when that happens, then, when the rail goes to expand again, there's too much room where the big gaps were, and not enough and kinking where there was not. 

The only way to GUARANTEE that you distribute the expansion and contraction evenly is to anchor the rail and the ties at regular intervals, just like the prototype. 

As usual, free floating rails works for some, not for others... just like some people have no oxidation on brass and others have big problems. No guarantees. 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
How many feet of this have you used and how long of time was it in use?? Just wondering. 
I plan to try it in my next staging yard for the coal hoppers only.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, I guess even with all the caveats I used, and what I thougt was concise and careful wording, my message was unclear. 

I was talking expansion and contraction and prototype practices and how they relate to us. 

I even used examples of oxidation as an analogy. 

I really cannot do any better, sorry for my poor explanation. 

Greg


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Feb 2011 07:48 AM 


JC's construction parallels prototype, where the rail is secured to the ties with rail anchors. It's a proven technique. 


This seems to fly in the face of everything we know about expansion and contraction though... Why does everyone remove the screws that anchor rail to ties on the aristo track? I'm not trying to argue, I just feel like I'm missing something. Everything I've ever read or researched or experienced seems to point away from anchoring the rail to the ties. Please elaborate.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Its only been in the last year or so that I have started removing the screws that anchor them. I don't think everyone does it. 
I like straight track, thus in a 65ft run of rail it has to move when in an area of full sun. thus exspantion joints now allows it to move while the track ties stay in a straight line, 
I have photos of where I have had forced bowed track becuase it could not move. I've had broken switches where the long rail foced its self and broke plastic ties. 

Most any changes I do is based on exspereince or trial and era. I don't compare the "rail" thing with plastic ties and light brass rail. 

I want them to look the same , but their not. 

Like you say, just sharing thoughts.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 25 Feb 2011 05:30 PM 


Most any changes I do is based on *exspereince* or trial and era. 

Oh, boy, gotta update my Spell Check to use that one.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Manco on 25 Feb 2011 02:15 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Feb 2011 07:48 AM 


JC's construction parallels prototype, where the rail is secured to the ties with rail anchors. It's a proven technique. 


This seems to fly in the face of everything we know about expansion and contraction though... Why does everyone remove the screws that anchor rail to ties on the aristo track? I'm not trying to argue, I just feel like I'm missing something. Everything I've ever read or researched or experienced seems to point away from anchoring the rail to the ties. Please elaborate. 

Here in the desert of Arizona we have to contend with extreme heat more than Extreme cold. It does get cold but not below zero. 

I want my track to be firmly anchored but still some what flexible.

I have a 70 FT straight section which could be a problem due to expansion.

I remove the screws to allow the rail to slide in the plastic ties. 

The rail sliding in the ties reduces the distortion by quiet a bit. 

I anchor my Ties to the concrete road bed in such a way that would allow them to shift if they had to.

The distortion of the rail in the 70 FT straight section is minimal. 

It will at times shift sideways less than a 1/4 of a inch.

There are no expansion rails in this section.

I have them but never put them in.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

atless my PM is not disabled. 

my two finger typing is the main problem. I'm looking down as I type. 

LOL, heheheh etc.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Manco on 25 Feb 2011 02:15 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Feb 2011 07:48 AM 


JC's construction parallels prototype, where the rail is secured to the ties with rail anchors. It's a proven technique. 


This seems to fly in the face of everything we know about expansion and contraction though... Why does everyone remove the screws that anchor rail to ties on the aristo track? I'm not trying to argue, I just feel like I'm missing something. Everything I've ever read or researched or experienced seems to point away from anchoring the rail to the ties. Please elaborate. It seems rather odd to me that people would make a 50' solid piece of rail, and then not expect excessive expansion, since locking short sections together with clamps into a much longer section would just seem to exacerbate the problem. It would seem that there should be expansion joints between each piece of rail, and depending on climate, maximum rail lengths of three to five feet. The gap should be large enough to allow for expansion on the hottest day expected, with probably another 10% to allow for extremes. I suppose curves wouldn't need to be done that way given that they can slide sideways, but it would also seem to be a good idea.

Honestly, using rail clamps makes sense conductivity-wise, but not for expansion and contraction. It might be better to just use railjoiners and jumper wires to bridge the gaps electrically. Then the ties and rails would have to be anchored security so when they contract they don't create one large gap while another gap remains closed.

Again, this is the way the prototype does it, and I'm sure their engineers have put a lot of thought into it.

Manco, I don't think you're missing anything at all, I just think that "everything we know about expansion and contraction" may be wrong from an engineering standpoint. There seems to be a number of things I'm rather dumbfounded by in this discussion, and some people seem pretty adamant about something that may need to be given some serious "re-thinking."

Thanks! Robert


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

So, let's see if I have this right:

The coefficient of expansion for Stainless is like 9uIn/In per Degree F. So that would be 900uIn/In over the range 0F to 100F. Added up over 50 ft, that would be about 1/2 inch per 50 ft.

I always wondered about guys that leave a gap for expansion every joint, then torque down the rail clamps so nothing can move








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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I always wondered about guys that leave a gap for expansion every joint, then torque down the rail clamps so nothing can move. 

I don't do that.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, didn't you say you weren't having problems with the metal rail? It would seem that there are two major problems with the plastic: It expands much more than metal, and remains warped when heated. Meaning that plastic rail may require different techniques to be useful. 

Thanks! Robert


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By NTCGRR on 26 Feb 2011 11:28 AM 
I always wondered about guys that leave a gap for expansion every joint, then torque down the rail clamps so nothing can move. 

I don't do that. 
I wasn't going to say anything









But I didn't think leaving a gap then tightening down a clamp did anything either..









I leave a gap in mine every chance I get for the Clickity Clack Noise










I have gone back to the old aristo rail jointer. I only screw one side of the joint in most cases. some have no screws at all. 

Think about it









JJ


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OK


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

I've found this thread to be really enlightening on the general subject of how to put track down...and whether to let the rail float or not...and about different rail types. I have no experience in laying track...yet. But the discussion seems to revolve around three options;

[*]Let the ties move some, take out all the tie to rail screws underneath so the rail can move within the ties...with with rails tightly connected to each other -- JJ's approach.[*]Tightly constrain the tie movement, take out all the rail screws underneath so the rail con move within the ties...with the rails tightly connected to each other...and add expansion track segments -- Marty's approach.[*]Loosely constrain the tie movement, tightly connect the rail to the ties -- Greg's approach[/list]Doing a bit of math...here's the amount of expansion different rail types experience based on a 100 degree temp change.


Material COE (micro in/in/deg) Temp variation Length expansion (inches) Length (ft) 5 10 15 30 50 Aluminum 12.3 100 1/16 1/8 3/16 3/8 3/4 Brass 10.4 100 1/16 1/8 3/16 3/8 5/8 ABS 41 100 1/4 1/2 3/4 1 1/2 2 1/2 PVC 28 100 1/6 1/3 1/2 1 1 5/8 SS (304) 9.6 100 1/16 1/8 3/16 1/3 9/16 SS (410) 5.5 100 1/32 1/16 1/10 3/16 1/3 


It's really easy to see here that plastic rail (based on the ABS and PVC lines) expands far too much on long runs...several inches. Further, the table shows expansion ONLY for a 100 degree temperature delta. The actual temperature variation rail sees is based NOT on the ambient temperature (as has been expressed here)...but the temperature the rail gets to from baking in the sun given an ambient air temperature. So...rail that lives through -17 degree ambient air temperatures to 100 degree (sunny) air temperatures could actually be seeing a -17 degree to a 180 degree ACTUAL rail temperature (that's just a guess). That would mean that in 50' of run the plastic rail would expand over 3"...while metal rail only expands a bit less than 1.5". 


And...this higher "material" temperature (versus ambient temperature) might explain why it stays "kinked"...especially plastic. Basically, at some high temperature the stresses inside the rail from heat and expansion resolve themselves...and they take on a new shape...and stay that way. Only really expensive plastics, like those used inside the dashboards of cars, can retain their shape when repeatedly subjected to heat stress. These nylon like plastics won't handle that.


So...to me, how much sun you get when the air is hot versus your lowest experienced temperature seems to be a decisive factor in how far you can run the rail before you need an expansion joint. If you live where the summers are hot...and you get a lot of sun...with cold winters (JJ), you need expansion joints close together. JC's case would be less severe since much of his layout is shaded by the "bomber" trees...and consequently, his rail doesn't heat as much from the sun. Marty's experiment with the plastic rail was definitely like JJ's situation...worsened by the lower winter temps in his area. IMHO, it seems that any rail with a large coefficient of expansion (i.e. plastic rail) just cannot work well for track in hot, sunny areas...perhaps in a yard if the yard leads are not too long...and are stub leads.


But even metal track moves a good deal and my thinking had always been to install my 5' sections of track where the ties are tightly constrained to the roadbed (screwed down tight), where the rail is tightly connected in ONE PLACE per 5' of rail to the ties (preferably in the middle of the 5' section) and there's a 1/16" to 3/32" gap between rail ends (the 100 to 150 degree temp difference expansion for brass rail). This means I can use the Aristo/LGB rail joiners (versus rail clamps)...and what I lose is continuity of electrical paths. Since I'm going to use battery/RC, that's not a big deal to me. 


Is my thinking correct? .... or am I missing something.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Can you exsplain that again??


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure...

a. Plastic rail shouldn't be used for mainlines or sidings outside in the sun...it expands too much...over 3" in a 50' run...like you said in the title.

b. Plastic rail that is nailed down/abutted to other rail at both ends will take on a permanent warp from the heating/cooling it gets...it's not going to unkink. It's gonna mold itself into a new shape...and stay like that.

c. Leaving a gap between each rail segment and screwing the rail down to the ties in ONE place per segment will allow the ties to stay put and not move...so the ties can be nailed down if you want. This keeps ballast in place.


Is that better? Thoughts?


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Not to worry Mikey









Very Verry soon you will have all the experience in th world Laying track.









No amount of reading can help you









You must go out there and make mistakes just like we all did.









JJ 

PS I think there is a Law or It may be in the Constitution that you have to make Mistakes when laying track for a Model RR


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Marty, just one minor quibble: 

"So...rail that lives through -17 degree ambient air temperatures to 100 degree (sunny) air temperatures could actually be seeing a -17 degree to a 180 degree ACTUAL rail temperature (that's just a guess)." 

An ambient air temperature of -17 may cause the rail temperature to fall much lower depending on the wind chill factor. Marty, for instance, lives in an area that has remarkably high winds - and remarkably low wind chill temperatures in the Winter. Temps in the -17F range with 20 to 40 mph winds could mean a wind chill of -40F to -50F below. 

I'm thinking that the snow would protect track, but a direct wind on a section of plastic track might cause as much damage as direct sunlight! 

I love your chart though, I had no idea plastics would expand and contract more that much more than metals! 

Just curious, has anyone tried operating trains in temperatures that low? 

Robert


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 26 Feb 2011 04:25 PM 
Marty, just one minor quibble: 

....ambient air temperature of -17 may cause the rail temperature to fall much lower depending on the wind chill factor. Marty, for instance, lives in an area that has remarkably high winds - and remarkably low wind chill temperatures in the Winter. Temps in the -17F range with 20 to 40 mph winds could mean a wind chill of -40F to -50F below. 

I'm thinking that the snow would protect track, but a direct wind on a section of plastic track might cause as much damage as direct sunlight! 

...

Robert 


Hehehehehe....that was me, NOT Marty...but I don't think wind chill is something that affects material. I'm pretty sure that if you took one of those IR thermometers you can point at stuff, it would read the ambient air temperature when pointed at some object other than a person. Wind chill is the perceived temperature by a person. 

As for snow on rails...it protects the rail material from temperature below freezing. It's actually an insulator to colder temperature. That's why folks that get lost in the snow are taught to dig snow caves...it protects them from the wind...it gives them an enclosure that's around 32 degrees...and it gives them something to warm up with their body heat.

And JJ...you're right. I setting up to make my mistakes now.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

You're correct, Mike, wind chill doesn't actually affect anything but warm blooded creatures, however, it does cause heat to disapate more rapidly. In other words, the rail won't get colder, it will just drop to that temperature faster. Or, it may actually reach that temperature rather than remain at a higher temp from residual heat. That probably applies more to dense objects like bridges and engine blocks. 

Thanks, Robert


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

"quibble" 
see now hes using those big words again... 
I keep telling myself, "self, thats it for this thread, no need to go back" but it keeps going.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a problem?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 26 Feb 2011 06:53 PM 
...I keep telling myself, "self, thats it for this thread, no need to go back" but it keeps going. 

But you started it...so it must be a good one.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I started it??? Don't quibble with me now. Greg usually finishes them. 

I hate getting older. I also hate going to work when I have train stuff to do. working for yourself does not make that go away.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah....this thread. You started it. Thought it was a good one too.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

And...if you hate getting old now...wait till ya walk out to your layout one day, and forget on the way why you walked out there.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Quibble?

Isn't that a small furry creature that pesters fictitious space fairing vessels?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 01 Mar 2011 06:28 PM 
Quibble?

Isn't that a small furry creature that pesters fictitious space fairing vessels?



Fictitious? What you mean, "Fictitious"?


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Um, no, that's "tribble," not "quibble." You know, tribbles, those things that the battery power guys use to make their trains go!


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm lost now. 
Anyway!!!! 
I'm installing plastic rail on my storage tracks. I started using the ties the plastic rails came with and there is alot more freedom for the rails to move. 
The rail will be outside but not in direct sun light. 
so to be fair we'll see how it does. 
the bowed rail needed to be nailed every 4th tie to get it to be straight. (see storage revisited)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

WAIT A MINUTE! 

Marty, are you saying, after 4 pages of posts, that you did not use the ties from Axel? In your first post? 

So, you start a thread "not for outdoor use" on Axel's plastic rail, (If I had started a post saying an Aristo product was bad, you would have screamed) 

So, now you are bashing Axel's product, and you did not even use his ties? 

I re-read all your posts, you also refer to removing screws from the rail.. now I'm really confused. 

When I first asked for more details, you snapped back. 

Then you tried to "counterpunch" with "Hey Greg, how many feet have you used?" 

can you say double standard? 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
you never asked.. I did not say which company it was..
I'm not the one who list the companies name in the title of the thread.
I had lots of AML ties. ties are ties ,,"right"?? As long as their are NOT attached. 
Oh Greg, its still not best for outdoors. for track power....LOL 
OH Greg didn't your wifey teach you any better??? 

I just shared my experience, like most do here. It was not a scientific test.

You read stuff into it, counterpunch??? I just asked how many feet have you used beings you know so much about it.
I thought maybe he has some testing it for someone, you seem to test everything.

Now see you started this, I just shared a thread and you where looking for a reason to trip me up.
I'm just shareing.

Boy your really touchy.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, not really, was more surprised on your original post, and have honestly stated it. 

We all know there is only one manufacturer of plastic rail right now. No reason to try to say "Well I did not name the manufacturer"... that is honestly a silly game that fools no one.

But you always tell people to give the manufacturers a fair shake, don't be tough on them in public, it hurts the hobby... 

Then you see JC succeeded... no comment. Yes, probably the AML ties had nothing to do with it, but don't you think you could have shared information, rather than react to my polite inquiry: 


"More detail?? don't over think this."



Well, next time I say something of Aristo's sucks, what if I forget to give some relevant information? Will you come down on me hot and heavy? You betcha. 


Is there a difference here? 


Not trying to trip you up at all. I believe that you took the track, put it in someone else's ties, did not tie it down often enough, and it did not perform well for you.

Is that a fair shake? What did the manufacturer tell you when you contacted him before you made it public?


Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Ladies PLEASE! I respect you guys too much with hopes of not seeing these simple "quibbles" made so public by you on this site. 
Marty, if you would have followed through and sold me all your "plastic" rail/track you would have been money and time ahead. hehe 
Sorry but after being away most of the winter and seeing this same thread atop the chart, every seldom time I check in.... 
and coming to what it has.... well I'm just disappointed. I mean no disrespect, but some arguments are best left unsaid. 
Luv ya all..... good night 
P.s. I thought a "quibble" was when you only wounded a duck, goose or quail and it wobbled off in flight to no man's land where it was un retrievable. Where's that Webster's when I need it.....?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've had my say, sorry, just a while in coming... I'll be nice now.. 

Marty, only kidding... 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe I should have said "kerffufle?" 

Thanks, Robert


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would have thought when this thread was started that all the facts would have been stated in the original post. Not saying originally that you did not use the ties that where made for this rail and using another brand does make a difference. Later RJD


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