# Aristo-Craft July-August Insider - A Different Perspective



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've read this a bit, and am a bit unnerved by the strange explanations and the attack on DCC. I suggest that people read carefully and think about what is said.
 
Here's one paragraph, and it alone is full of misinformation:
 
"With the revolution you can
get a loco to crawl even without
any perceptual motion. There
is no BEMF in the Revolution
at this time, as we don’t believe
it actually sees the correct feed
back; especially if there are two
to four motors to choose from.
In H.O. there is usually just one
motor and it does work correctly
in that circumstance. We can
achieve similar crawling results
with our speed curve settings
as R/C plane operators have
controlled speeds for decades.
Just set the start speed to zero
and speed step controls to one,
plus a momentum setting of zero
and see a virtually imperceptible
crawl.?" 
 
1. All modern motor controls have BEMF. How can Aristo be right about not using BEMF, and EVERY other motor controller out there be wrong? So QSI, Lenz, Massoth, ESU, NCE, Atlas, MRC, Digitrax and many others are wrong?
 
2. A train does not need BEMF because you don't need it on a R/C plane? Huh?
 
3. I have tested the system, it's low speed control is poor. (Buy one, and compare it to your friend's DCC...)

 
4. Momentum has nothing to do with minimum speed.
 
I think people need to read carefully and see that much of that article in the Insider is just a list of counterpoints against weaknesses that the system has. This is fine, you defend your product. What disturbs me is the obvious rationalizations that are more of personal attacks than reasons:

 
"We didn’t add test to label
faster or slower on the buttons
on the transmitter as no one
reads these while operating
and it’s so obvious, even my
three-year-old grandson figured
it out in seconds by following
the arrow indicators. *Again,
only a theoretical type engineer
would obsess about such a thing
and not care about real world
usability*."
 
It's comforting to know that my web site is so carefully "combed" for every bit of rebuttal, and I'm now a "theoretical type engineer" that is  "obsessing"... and that engineers does not care about real world useability.
 
It's a sad day indeed when the president of a company has to resort to name calling and character attacks to sell a product.
 
Read these things carefully and consider why this has to be put in print, rather than just objective information.
 
There's a ton more examples, like stating that the Revolution is WI-FI (complete and utter nonsense), so it's better than DCC (the wireless part on DCC systems are not part of the DCC standard) The reality is that the Zigbee protocol is different from WIFI. 

 
Spend your money wisely. Read the sites of other manufacturers and see if they attack the Revolution, or engineers  in order to sell their products. 

 
 
Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Greg, I'm glad you took the time to illustrate some of the Polkspeak...I was so disgusted I didn't want to even take the time. Maybe I should have, given the spinout in the other thread! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Well, we can have 2 threads on the same subject, one that believes it's bad to criticize, and this one, where we can be objective. 

If you read my site, and then read the article, you would see that not only does it address every issue I bring up, but almost in perfect order. Equating engineers with 3 year olds and being obsessive, and saying they don't care about others is just negative advertising to me. 

There's other misleading information, like skirting the limitation of 50 locos... oh, yes, you can have more groups of 50, but when you want one loco from one group, and another from another group, you have to switch groups... it's still that you have 50 locos at a time. 

That's cool for many people, but it's not the same as being able to select ANY of the 9,999 addresses on DCC at any time with no restriction. 

You and I realize the difference right away, but a new user might not, until they built up their collection and ran headlong into the restriction. 

It's a medium sized system with a lot more capability than the TE, but it's nowhere near DCC in terms of capability, even in the simple things. 

Read this one: 

"Due to the assignment of 
frequency of the transmitter 
to the receiver, you can’t copy 
from one transmitter to another 
at this time, but two different 
transmitters can control the 
same locomotive. You can copy 
one loco to another within the 
same transmitter, so at worst you 
manually have to re-enter the 
general settings one time in each 
transmitter and then make the 
minor adjustments needed." 

What does it mean? Bottom line is you have to program EVERY transmitter with ALL your locos. Again, it's well suited to people with a few locos and only one or 2 transmitters. Over that and re-entering all the locos is a pain... and since you don't know the actual ID of the loco, it's worse, you have to LINK each loco to the new transmitter. 

All we do on DCC is just enter the loco number, no matter whose system it is on... 

It's another limitation. 

I'd market it just as: 

Hey, it looks cheap! (if you don't add all the extra boards) so buy it. And if it burns up, we'll send you a new one. 

The biggest selling point I have found is the sound system, if indeed it will only add $50 to the cost, that's killer. The sound is pretty good, and will please many people. 

I did a youtube on it, but surprised that it was not shown in the latest shows. 

That's the killer marketing, If it's only $75 + $50, it will probably really take off. People can get in cheaply and build from there. 

Actually, that is not much less than a full on DCC decoder with a top of the line sound system incorporated, but many people balk at the startup of buying a DCC control system. 

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

p.s. Let's keep this factual and objective, the other thread already went out of control. 

A comment, I cannot agree that ANY negative comment hurts all manufacturers. 

In fact, EVERY major defect I have addressed with AML and Aristo has been addressed (I can only find fault with USAT split axles). 

The president of Accucraft spent 2 hours with me recently, at the behest of the head of their marketing and he listened intently to all the comments I had on their recently released box car. 

EVERY comment was welcomed, and they were ALL implemented. New wheels, new axles, new mounting of trucks. Wow. 

As, as much as it may pain Aristo, my first comment on the Revolution to the president of that company was the first firmware upgrade for the Revolution, eliminating the need to re-link locomotives in order to consist, coming up with the "cab" number to control the loco or consist, not the link id. 

Also, while I surely cannot take credit solely for these: New frogs for the wide radius switches, frog inserts for the #6 switches, improved guard rail spacing on the #6, new wheel flange contours, improved back to back spacing, and the list goes on. 

We all benefit from constructive criticism, we get better trains, the manufacturer sells more equipment because it works better. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

I see Mr Polk has finally cottoned on to controlling servos with the REVOLUTION. 

Apparently it is aimed at Live Steam operators who up until now have been used to full Digital Proportional of the the Johnson bar and regulator servos. 
Using pushbuttons to "control" the Johnson bar and regulator that can often be quite "sticky" is problematic. It know is theoretically possible to use pushbuttons as I offered pushbutton control servo with my RCS systems many years ago. 
Nice to see Mr Polk once again playing catch up with other peoples ideas. 
It will be interesting to see exactly how many they manage to sell to live steamers.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

I'll likewise be interested to see how they perform. I believe there is a "training" mode to set the end points of travel. 

Maybe they will incorporate this add on in their new generation of live steam. It would be good for Aristo to standardize on a single control system. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Why would one what a inperceptale crawl?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Well they will be sold to other manufactures of LS but according to Scott it will be a long time before they do another LS even another run of the Mike. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By John J on 06 Jul 2011 08:33 AM 
Why would one what a inperceptale crawl? 
LOL! True--an "imperceptable crawl" is the same as "not moving." I sometimes think the best thing that could happen to Aristo would be Lewis retiring.


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Wow Greg, Once again you've shed light on some things that havent been accurate.

I guess we just need to becareful who's giving the info so we know it's correct Some times


the Fanboys do get carried away. 


And thank You Again for showing and explaining the proper info









And as someone else said, (I) believe to that the hobby will be better off when Polk retires.

He's half way out the door now, can only hope the other half will be soon.

Adam


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

This thread is truly inspiring, I didnt know that,that company did these kind of deceptions. Live and learn. And we wonder sometimes why it 


is that this hobby so some say is going down hill Quick. 


Johnn


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

JJ, some people like to do switching moves without killing the passengers or the guys in the caboose. 

A low "crawl speed" shows superior motor control. I'm surprised you have not run into this in model railroading. 

Superior motor control has to do with the fineness of the speed steps (you really don't need more than a couple hundred, most modern DCC decoders interpolate to 1,000 or 2,000), the ability to overcome friction "spots" in the drive train (only possible with BEMF or the absolute speed control of the tachometer drive of MTH DCS), the ability to make a custom speed curve (64 different points in DCC) which can give you a linear throttle response, and much more. 

BEMF is the first thing the manufacturers add to their motor control. Advanced systems will let you "play" with the 3 parameters to really make it run like the prototype. 

There's a ton of things you can do to really control a loco, and it's amazing once you play around. (most systems are provided with a set of defaults so most everything runs great out of the box, one of the great advantages of BEMF, the decoder can sense these "tight spots" and adjust the power to give consistent speed rather than jerking and lunging). 

Regards, Greg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Aristo-Craft July-August Insider*

Posted By John J on 06 Jul 2011 08:33 AM 
Why would one what a inperceptale crawl? 
Because it is cool to watch, either in large scale, or even with one of my tiny Bemo H0e diesels....VERY cool.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Must be like watching grass grow.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, real locomotives can crawl also. Are you just being a "spoiler" here, or do you have a contribution? (Just like why do you want to run slow) 

Seems confrontive, but this thread was started to be informative, and do good for others, maybe helping unravel some "manufacturer spin", and misleading and just plain untrue stuff. 

All the people who think Aristo can do no wrong and will believe whatever Aristo tells them have a complementary thread to post on. 

If you want to build your product up, by denigrating someone else's product, then you are doing exactly the same as Aristo. 

Please, a little consideration here, there's some really misleading stuff that is being touted as gospel... 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

"An imperceptible crawl" *must be like watching grass grow*. How is that denigrating anyones product? 
I applaud you for having the balls to stand up to the never ending "Spin" coming from some manufacturers. 
Especially the "Spin" from AristoCraft. 
They have been getting away with it for years. It is nice to see them being called on it for a change.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

A low speed crawl is a good thing

An imperceptable crawl is not movement--if the movement is "imperceptable" it _cannot be perceived_, which means it's not happening. The correct phrase would be "barely perceptable." 

It's only worth mentioning because it's kind of typical of Lewis Polk's writing, which I always find nearly incomprehensible. His attempts at clarity genrally raise more questions than they answer. I'm never quite sure if it's just bad writing or if it's some kind of p.t. barnum-esque sales strategy.

A wise consumer should always greet sales pitches with skepticism.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good call, I think it's both Mike.









I have a number of things on my site about the Revolution, and have stated that I will remove them once Aristo stops making grossly misleading statements, I will remove them. 

The "catch phrase" of "Speed settings are programmable up to 1024 steps for incremental control beyond anything conceived in DCC and allows for totally prototypical switching techniques" is one that I take great exception to. I have had a Revolution in my possession for 2 months, and it's speed control is poor compared to typical DCC decoders. 

10 years ago DCC had many more features and much better speed control, BEMF, and more "tuning parameters"... DCC not only "conceived" better control, but had it 10 years ago. This continuous "banging" on the goal to replace DCC is just plain misleading and untrue. 

The latest comparison that the Revolution is better because more engineers work on 2.4 GHz networking is another misleading statement, first the Revolution does NOT network, in fact, there is no cooperation between locomotives or transmitters, as evidenced by the simple inability to copy locomotive settings between transmitters, and the fact that an "all stop" can only work by sending a stop command to the "Theoretically possible" locomotives out there, blindly trying to stop all 50 possible ones to be sure to "Catch" the one that needs stopping. 

Don't get me wrong, not everyone needs or wants everything DCC can offer, this is NOT the point. 

But for the Revolution to be constantly touted as being superior in features and operation is just plain wrong. It's a nice step up from what Aristo had before, and a nice next step into the 20th century. It's just that DCC is in the 21st century. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 07 Jul 2011 05:51 AM 
A low speed crawl is a good thing

An imperceptable crawl is not movement--if the movement is "imperceptable" it _cannot be perceived_, which means it's not happening. The correct phrase would be "barely perceptable." 



Sorry, but that's not true.

First of - just because something cannot be perceived doesn't mean it's not happening.

There are lots of things that are happening but that we don't perceive are happening - the earth travelling through space for instance.

And if you look up the definition of "imperceptable", Lewis or whoever wrote this blurb, definitely picked the right word.
First definition that came up with google: 

im·per·cep·ti·ble play_w2("I0056600")(







l)_adj._*1. * Impossible or difficult to perceive by the mind or senses: an imperceptible drop in temperature.
*2. * So subtle, slight, or gradual as to be barely perceptible: an imperceptible nod.



Knut 


Well, when I go back to "Edit", the text I copied from the browser is perfectly fine.
Here is a screen shot of it:


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"just because something cannot be perceived doesn't mean it's not happening." 

Reminds me of a T shirt I saw a few weeks ago. It read: "If a man says something in the forrest and there are no women around, is he still wrong?" 

Okay back to the serious stuff! 

Carry on, 
David Meashey


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By krs on 07 Jul 2011 08:24 AM 
Posted By lownote on 07 Jul 2011 05:51 AM 
A low speed crawl is a good thing

An imperceptable crawl is not movement--if the movement is "imperceptable" it _cannot be perceived_, which means it's not happening. The correct phrase would be "barely perceptable." 



Sorry, but that's not true.

First of - just because something cannot be perceived doesn't mean it's not happening.

There are lots of things that are happening but that we don't perceive are happening - the earth travelling through space for instance.

And if you look up the definition of "imperceptable", Lewis or whoever wrote this blurb, definitely picked the right word.
First definition that came up with google:









im·per·cep·ti·ble play_w2("I0056600")(







l)_adj._*1. * Impossible or difficult to perceive by the mind or senses: an imperceptible drop in temperature.
*2. * So subtle, slight, or gradual as to be barely perceptible: an imperceptible nod.



Knut 


Well, when I go back to "Edit", the text I copied from the browser is perfectly fine.
Here is a screen shot of it:


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

All that HTML code at the bottom of my last post............ 

That was a copy and paste of the text I now show just above it ( just above where I had to take a screen shot to show it on mls.) 

Even posting the screenshot below the HTML code didn't work, the mls software just showed that as more HTML code, but when I go back to "edit" to fix it, everything displays clearly. 
I think there is a problem here - I can always copy and paste from a webpage and get the text that is displayed, not the underlying HTML code.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 07 Jul 2011 08:37 AM 
All that HTML code at the bottom of my last post............ 

That was a copy and paste of the text I now show just above it ( just above where I had to take a screen shot to show it on mls.) 

Even posting the screenshot below the HTML code didn't work, the mls software just showed that as more HTML code, but when I go back to "edit" to fix it, everything displays clearly. 
I think there is a problem here - I can always copy and paste from a webpage and get the text that is displayed, not the underlying HTML code. 
Knut

The reason for the display of the HTML is because; what works on one web page will not necessarily work, or work properly and not scramble things on another system. That's why you have the "Paste" button on your 1st Class member HTML editor tool-bar







, which provides the following options (see below image). In this case, use the "Paste plain text" option since you want to get rid of all of the underlying HTML code that you've included in your copy/paste action.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Just yesterday, I happened to stumble onto a YouTube video of Lewis Polk speaking at the ECLTS. I have never met him, or heard him speak before. While overall, the facts of the presentation were somewhat interesting (other than the fact that he was reading a script for 99% of it. Yawn ...), it was riddled with errors and things that just didn't make sense. But of course the whole point was to sell the company (no different than if I were doing the same), but there was an overdose of hype. Just like their literature, it was aimed at marketing, but not necessarily checked for technical accuracy.


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Its the ussual spin Del, open Polky mouth. Inset Polky foot.









Johnn


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 07 Jul 2011 10:48 AM 
Posted By krs on 07 Jul 2011 08:37 AM 
All that HTML code at the bottom of my last post............ 

That was a copy and paste of the text I now show just above it ( just above where I had to take a screen shot to show it on mls.) 

Even posting the screenshot below the HTML code didn't work, the mls software just showed that as more HTML code, but when I go back to "edit" to fix it, everything displays clearly. 
I think there is a problem here - I can always copy and paste from a webpage and get the text that is displayed, not the underlying HTML code. 
Knut

The reason for the display of the HTML is because; what works on one web page will not necessarily work, or work properly and not scramble things on another system. That's why you have the "Paste" button on your 1st Class member HTML editor tool-bar







, which provides the following options (see below image). In this case, use the "Paste plain text" option since you want to get rid of all of the underlying HTML code that you've included in your copy/paste action.




Steve,

Appreciate your input, but this is heading right back to the User-friendliness, or better lack thereof of this software.



When I replied to the previous post and did a normal 'copy and paste' of what I wanted to quote (which looked just like formatted text on the original webpage) I saw exactly the text that I wanted to show.

Nothing funny, nothing strange, no HTML.

As a user I expect what is shown in my reply window to then show up in the post window when I press "submit".

If the underlying HTML code was also copied and then pasted in my copy and paste command, that should show right away while I was composing the reply, not only after I post.

I think everyone on MLS expects that the posted message that shows up for everyone to read is identical to the message that was written.

Sure, you have provided a work-around, but that is not the point.
One shouldn't have to use work-arounds to just post a message in a forum, and there are plenty of those that have been published on MLS.
This forum software is still not ready for prime-time - the new server that Shad was concerned about runs fine so far for me, it's actually more responsive than the old one.

But the forum software still has a lot of bugs - would be nice if someone was concerned about those and got them fixed.

Thanks,

Knut

BTW - What do you suggest non 1st class members do? They don't have access to the 'work-around' you posted.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

What do you suggest non 1st class members do? They don't have access to the 'work-around' you posted. 
Upgrade to 1st class.  

(Sorry, that was too easy.) 

Steve's the resident software expert, so I'll defer to him for a real answer. 

Later, 

K


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 07 Jul 2011 06:18 PM 
Steve,

Appreciate your input, but this is heading right back to the User-friendliness, or better lack thereof of this software.



When I replied to the previous post and did a normal 'copy and paste' of what I wanted to quote (which looked just like formatted text on the original webpage) I saw exactly the text that I wanted to show.

Nothing funny, nothing strange, no HTML.

As a user I expect what is shown in my reply window to then show up in the post window when I press "submit".

If the underlying HTML code was also copied and then pasted in my copy and paste command, that should show right away while I was composing the reply, not only after I post.

I think everyone on MLS expects that the posted message that shows up for everyone to read is identical to the message that was written.

Sure, you have provided a work-around, but that is not the point.
One shouldn't have to use work-arounds to just post a message in a forum, and there are plenty of those that have been published on MLS.
This forum software is still not ready for prime-time - the new server that Shad was concerned about runs fine so far for me, it's actually more responsive than the old one.

But the forum software still has a lot of bugs - would be nice if someone was concerned about those and got them fixed.

Thanks,

Knut
Knut

That's the world we live in and I doubt if you'll see it change, unless of course we go back to the lowest common denominator and revert to a straight plain text editor.










BTW - What do you suggest non 1st class members do? They don't have access to the 'work-around' you posted.
As for a Standard MLS member, that's easy, just paste what they've copied into a straight plain text editor on their local computer, which will strip all the HTML (i.e. just like the Paste option in the MLS editor), then copy and paste from that to the MLS editor. Or like Kevin suggested, upgrade to a 1st Class membership.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 07 Jul 2011 10:02 PM 

That's the world we live in and I doubt if you'll see it change, unless of course we go back to the lowest common denominator and revert to a straight plain text editor.









I hate to tell you that Steve, but this has nothing to do with the world we live in.

Out of curiosity I tried that 'copy and post' from that dictionary page on four different forums - none of them are "text only" forums and each one just showed the formatted text without any HTML tags, none of the stuff I get on MLS.

This is just yet another bug in the forum software MLS is using - simple as that.

Pity that nobody is interesting in fixing anything or if that is not possible move to a proper software platform.

Knut


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

Looks like this thread is being sidetracked.

Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, sigh... it was meant to be informative and a counterpoint to a similar thread where some strange claims were being made. 

The idea was to, as Kevin said I believe "unwind some spin" from an advertising brochure. 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Jim Francis on 08 Jul 2011 03:04 PM 
Looks like this thread is being sidetracked.

Jim 


I agree.

Trouble is that there is no way to split a topic in this forum, at least I don't think so.

And with any of these technical issues, I always expect that the explanation/resolution only requires one or two posts which would not justifying starting a new thread under forum bugs with links back and forth.
Unfortunately, the resolutions/explanations always seem to end up with work-arounds or using HTML code or deleting HTML code, never with a bug fix in the software.

OK, I'll shut up now on this topic.

Knut


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This doesn't surprise me one bit. I've been the route in my day, none of the manufacturer's want to hear their baby is ugly......some try to work with you, then the one who wants to help get it right gets canned (seen that, too), and then someone catches their ear with some new and better bit that nobody wants......and we're stuck with it. 

This stuff out of Polk is not new, just a continuation of the old. Nobody wants to hear any of it...they are too busy with their head in the sand or their fingers in their ears yelling "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!" 

But, all controllers use BEMF? Really? RCS doesn't.....it has a bult-in voltage tracking with the H-bridge, which is why it holds it's speed on curves. I've seen one type of controller, someone brought it to my RR, stupid thing hit the 6'8" radius and stopped. Crank in throttle, crank in more throttle, finally gets going, hits the straight, and it's off like a rocket. 

Gawd, makes me glad I don't participate regulary anymore in forums.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

G-Scale Graphics motor drivers don't use BEMF either (nor H-Bridges for that matter). Just haven't seen the need for it. My boards just cruise. 

I think I know the product you are talking about Dave. Owned one and it did the same thing. I couldn't make a lap around my layout without cranking the throttle from one end to the other to keep it going or slowing it down.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Thank God it has that handy knob, eh?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 08 Jul 2011 07:18 PM 
SNIP
But, all controllers use BEMF? Really? RCS doesn't.....it has a bult-in voltage tracking with the H-bridge, which is why it holds it's speed on curves. 
SNIP. 


None of my RCS ESC's have ever used BEMF.
The NSD H-Bridge to which Dave refers does not have a voltage tracking feature. In fact none of my PWM output ESC's have ever had that feature. 
I did, and still do, make a fully filtered Linear output R/C controller that does have that feature. The output voltage is monitored and a comparator IC is used to raise or lower that output voltage depending on load.

I still use the super reliable NSD H-Bridge for my RCS PnP ESC. The other RCS ESC's I make use a good old reliable (and inexpensive) FET - Relay combination which has proven itself over the years.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gentlemen, read back, I state DCC decoders vs. the Revolution. 

Nowhere did I bring in R/C or other manufacturers... let's keep the other products out of this please, this is a different perspective on the Aristo sales blurb, where Aristo compares the Revo to DCC. 

If you want to compare your product to Aristo, please start another thread. 

(and yes Tony, with your "voltage tracking" your product has superior low speed control as compared to Aristo) 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg. 
I would never claim the ESC's I make at the moment have superior slow speed control to either DCC or the Revolution. I was just correcting what Dave wrote. 
Ultra slow speed control is one thing BEMF can offer. 

I don't and never did, make a PWM ESC that has "voltage tracking". 
So it would not right to compare it with anything other than the older TE's in Linear mode. 
The "voltage tracking" circuit was purely to assist in maintaining a reasonably constant speed up hill and down dale without needing BEMF.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, you : "I don't and never did, make a PWM ESC that has "voltage tracking". but then you refer to "The "voltage tracking" circuit was purely to assist in maintaining a reasonably constant speed up hill and down dale without needing BEMF." 

Anyway, I took what Dave said at face value... ok, enough derailing... this thread is now useless... 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Greg. 
What part of *"I did, and still do, make a fully filtered Linear output R/C controller that does have that feature. The output voltage is monitored and a comparator IC is used to raise or lower that output voltage depending on load"* did you not understand?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeeze.. so you made a linear one and not a pwm one and now you're beating this to death on a thread about a completely different issue... ok, you can make this a thread on your products, and I'll go start another thread...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jeeze Greg, 
Isn't this thread because of inaccurate statements being bandied about? 

Well you tossed one out and Tony merely did what you are with Polk. 

I think it's his right to reply and personally I find it less distastefull than your 'Counterpoints' er pre-emptive strikes you were tossing out not too long ago. 

I've had my rubs with Tony, but I think you owe him the courtesy of finishing his comments, until you get it right. ha ha... 

Be Blessed, 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeeze.... now you are defending derailing a topic too... 

Anything else you want to add? 

A nice refreshing beverage? 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Not really Greg, just poking a little fun your way and you amitted that this thread was about done anyway. 
Lighten up, have fun and enjoy. 
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, I was hoping to put more "meat" into this thread, but I've decided to write a number of articles about things like motor control, and let people understand what "design" does what. 

Then people can understand what BEMF, kick start, dither control, and PIV parameters are, as well as how "tachometer drive", and various methods of pulse power affect the running qualities of their locomotives. 

I'm going to write them up on my site, and then publish the "meat" on the forum... there's too much spin out there from too many places. 

(Have you noticed the crusade against Aristo's gearbox? There's youtube videos and everything) 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds like a good idea. 

I tend not to worry about future products and crusades. I come here for solutions and inspiration. 
After 25 years fabricating for even pickier customers (jewelry) I leave that to others.... 

John


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