# Aster Great Norhern S2 at 5 degrees below



## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Editors of Newsletters and other garden railway establishments claim 'this is the time of year to do those much needed jobs in your work shop'!
Not strictly true sir.
It's cold at 5 below but the sun is shining and thanks to that nice Mr Aster my spirit fired fired S2 'blows off' impatiently before a 30 min run of easy steaming.
No slip, no fuss, just another run on another day. 
You have to admit that spirit fired engines have the upper hand over gas on these sort of days....or is someone going to come along and prove me wrong here?
Please check my video running in the snow....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CWmELNOAk.


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a Nice Live steam.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't know who main131 is, but I'm guessing his "5 degrees below" ain't -5 deg. F. My guess would be 5 degrees below freezing, which ain't much.

He doesn't give much clue as to his location which might clear up the issue. I'm guessing nobody steams at -5 deg. F. Not even with spirits (unless taken internally).

I was steaming at 5 degrees above freezing this morning with my Accucraft 4-4-0 "Col. Boone". I had problems since it was on a sloped layout in the grass and it would accelerate out of control on the downslope and stall on the upslope. I did a lot of running around the oval after a catastrophic flipping over off the tracks. It was continual full throttle on upgrade and zero throttle on downgrade after that mishap.










Sorry I ain't got no snow to show. It all melted a week ago.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

He is from the UK, and I'm sure it is -5C


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By main131 on 19 Dec 2009 03:12 PM 

You have to admit that spirit fired engines have the upper hand over gas on these sort of days....or is someone going to come along and prove me wrong here?
I'm not going to prove you're wrong. But I will say you're wrong. Butane will run in below freezing temperatures as long as the fuel tank is kept warm. I've run live steam with butane in below freezing weather seveal times with no problem. So I don't admit "that spirit fired engines have the upper hand over gas on these sort of days".

I don't think there is any issue with propane fired live steamers in the cold.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I think an alchohol fire is hotter than butane. Great video, thanks for posting that. I got a glimpse of someone wearing some mighty thick mittens. lol. Whoever ran the camera must have frozen his a.. off. I have tried running in the snow, the last being the great Houston blizzard of '09 and it's just too damn cold for me. My hands were froze and so was I. Some butane engines will run fine in the cold if you can get some warm water around the fuel tank. I have others that won't even boil water, much less run so it just depends on how well insulated the boiler is and how hot the fire is. The two burner engines work best.


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks to sailordon and Bryan Smith for comments.

I appreciate Bryan for converting the youtube address to his own posting to allow 'click on' access. Next time I copy and paste I will leave a suitable gap between the link and the posting text!

Regarding sailordon Texas location, we imagine here in the UK Texas to be pretty warm. By coincidence we had a friend just returned from Houston who said it had been snowing there. so if it had been me running steam I would have chosen a meths fired engine.

I had my Accucraft Cab forward running (on blocks) in the garage yesterday testing the burners, as on a previous run, I thought that one had gone out.

I used a butane propane mix as we are still around freezing here, and made sure that I had a good supply of warm water and a 'warmish gas can'
To maintain an appropriate steam temperature I find it better to keep your gas tank contents well topped up. Once the gas level goes low the flow is less energenic and it will show on your pressure gauge thus affecting engine performance.

On a large engine like the Cab Forward with it's twin cylinders you will always need 50 plus psi, a good gas flow and don't be a ***** cat with your gas control valve.
One thing to remember though; Keep your bypass closed as you will need lots and lots of water!!

Did one of the burners go out on the test? NO the C/F ran for 40 mins....a real beast.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By main131 on 21 Dec 2009 09:16 AM 

Once the gas level goes low the flow is less energenic and it will show on your pressure gauge thus affecting engine performance.


I run 3 different butane fuel live steamers. I have never noticed "less energetic" flow due to low gas level. Butane has the same vapor pressure no matter what the level is in the fuel tank (assuming constant temperature). You might want to review the gas laws and pressure/temperature curves for butane.

There are some badly designed butane fuel systems. One example would be an Aster Mogul C&S #22. Word on the website is that Norm Saley knows how to fix them.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember running my my Frank S in the snow when I lived way up north in PA ( I think it's near the north poll, I'm going back up there for a few days... brrrrrr) I used to walk around with the fuel can inside my jacket and every 20 minutes you had to change out the water in the water bath to keep the fuel temp/pressure up. So I moved up to alcohol fired engines, no more cold weather issues. 
For SailorDon to experience this he will have to store his fuel cans in the freezer, removing them only long enough to fuel up the engine (good luck) then right back in the deep freeze, the refuel is even more fun, as the filler valve will quickly ice over. It's like working with liquid nitrogen !! hehe. Lucky for him the main threat in Houston is the water boiling before they light em up in the summer heat!! 

Well got to go finish another S-2 build.. Merry Christmas all


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 21 Dec 2009 11:29 AM 
For SailorDon to experience this he will have to store his fuel cans in the freezer, removing them only long enough to fuel up the engine (good luck) then right back in the deep freeze, the refuel is even more fun, as the filler valve will quickly ice over. It's like working with liquid nitrogen !! hehe. Lucky for him the main threat in Houston is the water boiling before they light em up in the summer heat!! 

If you store butane fuel cans in a deep freeze, chances are you will never be able to fill a butane fuel tank. The vapor pressure of butane at 0 deg. F is about 5 psi. That's close to a vacuum. You might end up sucking air out of the tank into the fuel can.

For the scientifically inclined:










If you forget the "deep freeze" and just go with freezing 0 deg. C, that looks like about 1 bar vapor pressure, so the liquid butane in the fuel can will be pressure balanced with the atmospheric pressure. Good luck with that!









You can use the graph above to figure out the ideal temperature for your butane fuel can so as to get the desired flow rate into your butane fuel tank.

Butane locomotive designers should be designing their fuel systems using the same graph so the butane arrives at the burners in a fully vaporized state with sufficient pressure to support the required flame in the firebox. As John Frank pointed out, some butane fired designs have issues, especially in cold weather.

Now my head hurts from all this high-tech cipherin'. I think I'll go do something easy like a trans-lunar orbital injection velocity, just for fun.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Don you can always do it my way, put some flame from your lighter on that butane tank and warm it up. lol


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

I have never had a problem with outside air temperature with my coal burning locomotives!!!!!


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## main131 (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 21 Dec 2009 02:53 PM 
I have never had a problem with outside air temperature with my coal burning locomotives!!!!!
Dave,
When you light your coal fired engines in the freezing cold, do you try to use your freezing cold gas fired butane lighting gun?

Thank you to SailorDon for your informative info and chart.
I use the Butane/Propane mix here in the UK, as indeed do most of my chums, so I am not sure how that equates with the points made by your goodself?

On the odd occasion we get really hot here ( like over 20c) I might be tempted to use just butane from a safety point, but I can't remember when I last bought a can of it.

The mix is as diferent as chalk and cheese when it's cold.

Incidently I liked your picture. I have a Mogul which looks about a similar size. I have a water sensor warning led fitted which turns from green to red when the level is low.

Good steaming to you all for Christmas main131


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Sailor Don, I'm just glad to see that you are steaming. I was beginning to think that the only way I could get you back in the hobby was to find a steam powered Harley.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 21 Dec 2009 02:20 PM 
Don you can always do it my way, put some flame from your lighter on that butane tank and warm it up. lol I had fogotten all about that method! I remembered watching you perform that "stunt" at one of the Steamin' at Steve's sessions. I stood back a respectable distance.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 21 Dec 2009 03:57 PM 
Sailor Don, I'm just glad to see that you are steaming. I was beginning to think that the only way I could get you back in the hobby was to find a steam powered Harley.








I wonder if steam powered Harley's cause heart attacks? (Read the details in the URL.)

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/classics/bike.asp?id=3










This is 10 years before the first Harley Davidson which was built in 1903.

If you could arrange to have one of these live steamers at the next Steamin' at Steve's, I'll be there for sure.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Sailor Don that thing is amazing. It's PISTON driven just like a locomotive. There is no chain. And it has a site glass. I would imagine it's a heavy beast. And it's coal fired. LOL. Now if he had used butane he could have driven it for more than seven minutes.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 22 Dec 2009 09:44 AM 
Sailor Don that thing is amazing. It's PISTON driven just like a locomotive. There is no chain. And it has a site glass. I would imagine it's a heavy beast. And it's coal fired. LOL. Now if he had used butane he could have driven it for more than seven minutes.
Right! There is a sight glass, but I don't think it would be possible to check the water level while riding.


















Let's suppose he did use butane instead of coal. Furthermore, let's suppose it was a cold day and he couldn't get the butane to flow, so he used the "John Frank method" of increasing the butane tank pressure to the preferred point on the chart posted previously. Just one small leak in the tank and he would have a "rocket cycle". Probably sub-orbital in trajectory, but maybe more than 7 minutes duration. 

Slight correction. The article says he got "7 miles on each stoking". 
I guess that's 7 mps (miles per stoke). I think that's better than Dave Young gets.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted by Sailor Don:
If you could arrange to have one of these live steamers at the next Steamin' at Steve's, I'll be there for sure. 


Don, as long as it does not have that funky sparky electric sound or any place to put those fake smoke drops into, it will be welcome. And.................we will steam next Tue. Same Bat time, same Bat place.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey Steve,

I've got the day off from work. As long as it's not "5 degrees below", I'll be there for the last 2009 Steamin' at Steve's. It's a Houston event that no live steamer should miss.
















My apologies to _main131 _for hijacking this thread.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SailorDon on 22 Dec 2009 08:15 PM 
Hey Steve,

I've got the day off from work. As long as it's not "5 degrees below", I'll be there for the last 2009 Steamin' at Steve's. It's a Houston event that no live steamer should miss.
















My apologies to _main131 _for hijacking this thread.












Next Tuesday's forecast is for 38 degrees and showers(40%). Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Sounds like an alchohol day. lol. For the engines and us too.


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