# Can you mix track power and live steamers?



## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I've been pondering dipping a toe into live steam since I got into G scale a couple years ago. My track is now all down and I've made good progress on the landscaping/garden and scenery this year. I have a couple of electric locomotives that I'm really fond of, and that I could never afford as live steamers (and big live steam locos wouldn't like my r3 curves) 

Anyway, I was wondering if it is possible to run live steam and track-powered locomotives on the same layout, or do the live steam locomotives make too much of a mess? I already wipe my rails off with a wet swiffer before running my trains, so if it's that simple I might grab a (relatively) inexpensive live steam locomotive and see how I like it. If it takes a couple hours to get the steam oil off the rails, I may give live steam a pass for now--or set up a completely different track.

Anyone out there do both?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that it depends on several things. First and foremost, some live steamers have axles and wheels that are not insulated, thus they will cause a short when placed on rails carrying voltage.

For a while Dr. Rivet powered his track. I didn't have any problems running my track powered engines on his track which is mostly live Steam. It is now non powered so when I run it is with battery.

I don't notice any excessive dirt and oil. The biggest problem I see is the melted ties where an engine has stopped for adding fuel and/or water.

I'm not a live steamer, but if I were to go to the dark side, I would probably raise my layout higher off the ground. Watching live steamers at Dr. Rivet's events, I think that running live steamers on a ground level layout would be hard on my knees and back. They require much more attention and care. You can't just fire it up and let it go. At least that is my impression from observing them in action.

They are really neat to watch and listen to.

Chuck


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't think I'd ever run sparkies and steam simultaneously... my layout isn't really big enough for that. So probably the lack of insulation on the wheels wouldn't be an issue. I had forgotten about that though, so thanks for the reminder.

My layout is on a raised-bed, about a foot off the ground. There are a number of places where the track comes close to and parallels the edge, and I'm still in the under-50 crowd (for a couple more years) so crouching down isn't (currently) an issue. Since I store my trains inside an schlep them out, I'm already down at that level a lot getting them on the tracks 

I wonder if I could have a short section with real wood ties where I started off or fueled the steamers... or if I'm not powering the track, I could cut a piece of sheet metal to fit between the rails where they stopped for "service"


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

chuck n said:


> I think that it depends on several things. First and foremost, some live steamers have axles and wheels that are not insulated, thus they will cause a short when placed on rails carrying voltage.
> 
> For a while Dr. Rivet powered his track. I didn't have any problems running my track powered engines on his track which is mostly live Steam. It is now non powered so when I run it is with battery.
> 
> ...


I MUST correct one statement there.. . the "dark side" is 'battery power'! When you go 'Live Steam', you have finally "seen the light"! Please don't confuse the two.  

I run two Aster Mikados and have never melted a tie on my track, but I have burnt the servo wires that I ran from the cab to the front of the engine (where I mounted the servo for controlling the reverser) when I my auxiliary blower fan failed and let the fire leak out the bottom of the firebox and lick up the sides of the engine where I had run the wires under the running board. I have however spilled alcohol and set fire to a plant next to the track, (but I'd rather not go too deeply into that minor but unfortunate conflagration! At least I think it was a weed!)

As for lubrication causing track problems, one wants to be sure that the parts that rub have plenty of lubrication, much more so than those that run electrics... electrics usually have much looser tolerances on the parts that rub and so wear is not as much of an issue... plus the price differential between electric and Live Steam is such that any wear is much more expensive to repair. But dripping oil and grease can cause slippage on the track (loss of traction) for the Engine (electric or Live Steam), and it is an insulator that can keep a track powered electric from getting full and uninterrupted power, so if you want to run both Live Steam and track powered locomotives, you will want to be careful about flooding the wearing parts with too much oil.

Note: "Scale drops of oil" don't exist and often one 1:1 drop of oil is excessive so I often keep a small rag (or even a nose tissue) to wipe off the excess while practicing the honored "Oiling Around" while the fire is heating the water.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

A question to ask yourself, is how do you plan to control your live steam locos?
If manual control, is your track suitable?
By that I mean should you set the throttle a little too full, then there is nothing as scary as seeing your train take off behind a flower bed with no easy access.
If you have a geared loco of some sort, then this is probably not a problem as they are less likely to go as fast as a rod loco.
Also, how level is your railway. If it has lots of grades then maybe you need to look at r/c as it may be challenging for manual control.
As far as melted ties go, this normally means someone with an alcohol fired loco is doing something wrong, or the loco is. It should not happen.
The same with lots of oil on the track. A properly lubricated loco should not be getting oil on the top of the rail and it normally means over oiling.
Mind you, I am not a gas person, and I gather there are some gas locos that have an opening at the bottom of the smokebox that could cause oil to leak out there I guess.
To my mind, running a manual controlled live steam loco is like running a full size one, and is great fun.
You have to keep an eye on fuel and water and really need to 'be one with your loco'.
If you do get one, enjoy it.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

A lot of live steamers are available with insulated wheels - Roundhouse for example - but you still may need to consider the case of an uninsulated live steamer parked in a track powered siding. 

Most of the damage to sleepers (ties) comes from the fact that it's difficult to see alcohol burning if any spillage catches fire during refuelling. The solution is to go with gas firing - but if you must have the ability to use spirit firing, it's best to have a section of the track bed open in the refuelling area so any spilt fuel drops through onto the ground. Unfortunately this has been known to lead to grass fires .... 

As far as track contamination is concerned, sliding shoe pick-ups work much better than wheel pick-ups because of the self-cleaning nature of the sliding/wiping contact with the rail, as opposed to the effectively 'static' contact of wheel pick-ups.

Regards

John


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Two of the main brands of live steam are Aster and Accucraft. Neither of these companies are using insulated wheels, so track power is out with recent models from either of these suppliers. As mentioned earlier, some LS will liberally coat the track with oil -- making for another reason to scrap track power when running LS at the same time.

If you must run live steam and electric together, I would advise battery power and some kind of RC for the electric as the only way to go.

Ross Schlabach


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

The OP does NOT state they want to run them at the same time. Just asking about the oil from Live Steam. ?


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I run live steam and electric, but not at the same time. I do clean the track well after running live steam, they do seem to dribble here and there.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

RP3 said:


> Two of the main brands of live steam are Aster and Accucraft. Neither of these companies are using insulated wheels, so track power is out with recent models from either of these suppliers.
> 
> Ross Schlabach


I don't think that's quite right - Accucraft said recently ....



Accucraft UK said:


> The majority of Accucraft (UK) NG locos have insulated wheels .......


Also, this thread indicates there may be others including Aster and Regner ....

http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-l...ve-steam-engines-have-insulated-wheels-1.html

Regards

John


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run a mix of track power, battery power and live steam for years. Gets a little messy at times but not enough to stop the fun.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

My Aristo Mikado does.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Does what?


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I use both also, it is true that some , mainly the older Asters will drible oil onto the track, this seems to diminish greatly with more recent engines fitted with teflon piston rings and O ring gland boxes. My solution is to hope for some rain which generally washes of this oily residue, a common solution in our oceanic climate. There is little problem with engines fitted with pick up shoes and I have been using succesfully MTH DCS for four years now. I would say that outside of holding a live steam get together on your track, the two are very compatible. After a GTG the rain followed by cleaning the track with a track eraser is the better way to resume electric operations. However if rain is not forthcoming the track eraser will do the job. This makes running live steam actually easier than running electrics! However electrics are a neat way to tune your track before a GTG and get all the kinks out of it.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I run both but not at the same time. The only live steam I have that has insulated wheels is my Accucraft Forney. I never tried running live steam and battery or electric at the same time. Im usually too busy watching the live steam.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

So do I of course. But having a patching system of household plugs to the tracks I can run live steam on one main line and digital electic on another. I simply patch out the track where the live steam will run.
I find the two complimentary also, when I want to run an engine or test one after some maintenance work live steam is great. But for pure realistic operation, with lots of switching electric with digital is fantastic.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

How fast do the trains run when you plug the household plugs into the wall outlet? 

Or is that the smoke system? 

Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I run both also. My LS are RC as my RR is all o the ground. Little messy at times but clean track before running sparkies Later RJD


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I run track power and live steam on my layout. 

Swifer pad with iso propyl alcohol, wipe a few times, good to go.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Naptowneng said:


> I run track power and live steam on my layout.
> 
> Swifer pad with iso propyl alcohol, wipe a few times, good to go.
> 
> Jerry


X 2 Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, try the wet swiffer pads, they work great and do not evaporate as quickly as the alcohol.

Also even less work, pop one on, wipe, throw away.

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Absolutely you can run both. I run DCC and live steam and all it takes is a quick wipe with a sponge soaked in smoke fluid to clean any residue off the tracks after you've been running a steamer for a while. As Greg says, a wet Swiffer would work great too. I'm more fussy than most when it comes to keeping track and wheels clean but it's no problem at all. I run a Roundhouse Billy, an Aster/LGB Frank S, and an Accucraft Shay. 

Keith


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Agreed Greg, however I came into possession of a large box of Swifer pads that had been opened up and allowed to dry out. Thus I use them with isopropyl and they do a good job. When I run out, wet ones will be used.

Keith- Nice stable, I just procured a NIB Frank S and are delighted with it

Regards

Jerry


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

*NO* snowshoe I dont plug the layout into the 220 volts wall plugs. I use wall plugs and in particular a multiple plug fed with 24 volts 10 amperes track voltage or DCS and I plug into the multiple plug the outer main, the inner main and the branch to the indoor terminus thus I can operate live steam on one main and digital on another. It's as simple as pie and has been in service for around 20 years, which I doubt a control pannel outdoors with toggles would. If I could I would use cab controle but how long does a cab control panel last out of doors? hence digital, in my case MTH DCS. With this I can controle independently all my locos on all tracks. But of course cannot when an uninsulated steamer is in use, on a given track, in that case I just plug out the track. its cheap, simple and it works since over twenty years... 

As a matter of fact one of the factors that got me to install DCS (other than the fact that I now own 4 MTH locos) was the problem that arose when I was using Aristocraft Train engeneer on my two track main. I had installed one receiver on the down main and one receiver on the up main, but whenever my engine went from one main to the other on a crossover it would boost into full steam ahead at double the speed. Probably because it was receiving the volts from both receivers as long as it was over the insulated rail joint! So I had to revert to one DCS board, for both tracks and lost the possibility of running two trains simutaniously. 

I have decided that if I revert to Aristo Craft Train engeneer some day, I will install toggles and simple cab controle inside the house and when ever I want to crossover from one track to the other, put them both on the same receiver temporarily just for the move. Once the train is on its track I can revert to individual receivers again by flipping the cab toggle.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

du-bousquetaire said:


> *NO* snowshoe I dont plug the layout into the 220 volts wall plugs. I use wall plugs and in particular a multiple plug fed with 24 volts 10 amperes track voltage or DCS and I plug into the multiple plug the outer main, the inner main and the branch to the indoor terminus thus I can operate live steam on one main and digital on another. It's as simple as pie and has been in service for around 20 years, which I doubt a control pannel outdoors with toggles would. If I could I would use cab controle but how long does a cab control panel last out of doors? hence digital, in my case MTH DCS. With this I can controle independently all my locos on all tracks. But of course cannot when an uninsulated steamer is in use, on a given track, in that case I just plug out the track. its cheap, simple and it works since over twenty years...
> 
> As a matter of fact one of the factors that got me to install DCS (other than the fact that I now own 4 MTH locos) was the problem that arose when I was using Aristocraft Train engeneer on my two track main. I had installed one receiver on the down main and one receiver on the up main, but whenever my engine went from one main to the other on a crossover it would boost into full steam ahead at double the speed. Probably because it was receiving the volts from both receivers as long as it was over the insulated rail joint! So I had to revert to one DCS board, for both tracks and lost the possibility of running two trains simutaniously.
> 
> I have decided that if I revert to Aristo Craft Train engeneer some day, I will install toggles and simple cab controle inside the house and when ever I want to crossover from one track to the other, put them both on the same receiver temporarily just for the move. Once the train is on its track I can revert to individual receivers again by flipping the cab toggle.


 Haha I didnt say that. I think Greg did.


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## bobrstrong (Mar 25, 2013)

I currently don't have a layout. But I did have one which I ran ran electric and live steam ( not at the same time). I would run my sparkies first. then my live steam to finish off the day.
I would just let the track crust over with dirt and dust till the next session then clean with a long handle drywall sander(used by construction workers). Many Garden Railroaders use to use these to clean there track years ago and I an surprised no one has mentioned it here. As long as you have clear access from above and no tunnels it's easy and no bending down on your knees required. for tunnels I used the trusty LGB Track cleaning Loco. Of course they are a bit abrasive and also not cheap or easy to find now days.
As mentioned previously, consider your track access, radius and grades when thinking about running live steam and your selection of locomotives.
Happy steaming


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