# Classification lights on locos, colors and direction?



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, the impetus for this post is that I'm modifying my Aristo Consolidation to have better lighting.

I already solved the problem on the tender, where the number boards were only on when the rear headlight was on. (came out great, will put pictures on my site).

Now to the locomotive, where the headlight, number boards, classification and cab light are alll tied together too. (crazy!)


Anyway, I have everything figured out (since I relocated the decoder into the boiler), EXCEPT the colors and lighting of the classification lights.

*What I know:*

These are called classification lights, not marker lights like on a caboose.
In MOST railroads, what light shows from the front of the loco is: 


[*] nothing (normally scheduled train)[*]white (extra, unscheduled train)[*]green (normally scheduled train, but another section follows)[*]red (really only used for rear of train, normally a marker, not a classification light)[/list]

*What I don't know, and am trying to get answers for:*

[*]Did steam locomotive classification lights also shine to the rear and sides?[*]If they did, what colors?[/list] Maybe Aristo is using the wrong type of classification light housing, with 3 "lenses", or maybe prototype roads did.


I don't need to know about diesels, they almost always had the classification lights recessed into the body.

I don't need to know about marker lights, cabooses, etc, marker lights are different.


I'll be interested to know what the real scoop is on these lights that seem to be on all my steam locos, but always seem to be the wrong colors!

Thanks, Greg


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Prototype steam locomotive class lights that I have examined only had two lenses. One showed to the front, and one showed to the side. That is why when diesels came on line, they had the single class lights mounted at an angle, so that they could be seen from the front and to the side. Santa Fe, of course used amber instead of green. Southern Pacific usually had markers on their tenders which were illuminated when the locomotive was running light or used as a pusher in helper service. 
I know there are probably exceptions to the rule.


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Your colors are correct except steam locomotive class lamps generally have only white and green aspects. There is probably an exception but I have never seen class lamps with red lenses on a steam loco and some Railroad had to be different but the Consolidated Operating code standardized things fairly early.. Red was common on diesel locomotives because when used as a pusher they needed to be identifiable as the rear of train. Most recessed diesel class lamps had gels like a theatrical spot light to change the color..

Back to steam, Most class lamps had one aspect facing forward and one to the side, never back at the crew, as it would blind them at night. In the case of Handlin radial lamps like the Rio Grande used , the single lens would face forward. The color was changed by a device specific to a manufacturer. The "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Railroad Lighting"vol 2 by Barrett would be a good resource for manufacture and railroad info.

The locomotive number boards were wired to be on at all times. Weather he train number boards were switched was up to the RR

Have I missed anything?

Sorry for any typos I have a 1 year old on my lap who loves to help type. 

Paul 
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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

What did the UP use the Red Light on their FEF type locomotive. I know it was a type of Mars light, but why was it red?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake 
I have always wondered that also.


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

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The red light on the UP engines was a Mars light that was used as a warning if a train was stopped in a location that would have been hazardous to the crew of the stopped train or have fouled an on coming train. It is not a classification lamp. The Milwaukee Road, SP and other railroads that had high speed trackage or dangerous operation conditions such as fog equipped their locomotives wit Mar or Gyralites as an advanced warning device. This from the era before radios and CTC when trains ran track warrents, timetables and ABS systems and crews followed rule 99 and CYA'ed with torpedoes, fusee's and the brakeman walking the ballast.


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, here is a view of Western Maryland Scenic RR 2-8-0 #734 taken last winter. It shows some class light detail. What you really can't see from just this one photo, but becomes apparent if you look at lots of them is that it is clear glass (white) on the front and outside. Of course one has to be careful basing an accurate model on what they see now in excursion service. Note also the wire running right across the smokebox from the headlight up to the right class light. I don't think I have any shots of close up detail, but I will have to check on some pics stored on CDs if I can find them. I believe that there is glass on the inside piece but it is painted over. 




And heck just because it's a pretty engine, I'll throw in a couple more






And of course here is Helmstetter's curve. One of the most photogenic places on the WM. (A few miles west of Cumberland, MD)




Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great info guys! I really appreciate it. 

Mr. Pero, nice to see you posting! I do model Santa Fe, so very curious about amber classification lights... would they use amber or green instead of the more typical white or green? 

I'm working on getting very small bicolor leds, such that 2 of them could be mounted inside the classification lights, looks like forwards and side is the way to go. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

I have become more of a "lurker" than poster since we sold the house and the RR is in storage. I believe the amber lenses were in the markers on the caboose instead of green. I have to check with my ATSF Expert on class lights. He is in his 70's and is an ATSF retiree who is a great source of information. He is hard to contact, since he is very active for his age and lives on the East Coast of Fla., wheras I am on the West Coast.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Good stuff. I will black out the rear facing lenses on my 2-8-0's. Greg,when you come up with white leds that will fit the class lights will you post ordering info? I will be happy just to have nice white lights when I want them on.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

Got in touch with my friend. The ATSF used green and white in their locomotive class lights. Amber showed up on caboose markers instead of green. 
Looking for a great site for LED's ? Check out http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/ 
I have purchased from them. Excelllent quality with great response time. They even have a "chip" LED that might fit inside a G Gauge Class light housing.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another site I ran across that has some interesting small leds. http://www.led-switch.com/


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

As mentioned above;

Santa Fe locos used clear (white) and green class lights. 

Santa Fe cabeese used red lenses to the rear and amber on all other sides of the marker lights. 


Here are two of my Santa Fe cabeese with amber/red markers on our HO scale layout:


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a source for very small LED's. While on the page you might take a look-see at the links in the "More Info" column for the respective LED's.

Ngineering - Lighting Products[/b]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great info, thanks again. 

I go direct to the LED manufacturers, mostly Osram and Kingbright. Other than headlights I use SMD (surface mount device) LEDs (some people call them chip LEDs). 

Matt, did you put 3 or 4 lenses in the markers? I understand that most actually had 4 lenses, left over from the time when an actual lantern was hing on a hook. 

Now what I need to do is close up the 3rd lens on the Aristo classification lights on my loco, so they are more prototypical, then 2 bicolor green/white LEDs facing forwards and to the side. These will be individually controllable, off, white, green. 

Regards, Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Sep 2011 11:47 AM 
Great info, thanks again. 

Matt, did you put 3 or 4 lenses in the markers? I understand that most actually had 4 lenses, left over from the time when an actual lantern was hing on a hook. 

Regards, Greg 
I used Tomar marker lights, which unfortunately only have three lenses. Santa Fe prototype caboose markers had four lenses. And were mounted on the caboose end corners. 


Four lenses is a lot easier to do in large scales. In smaller scales like HO, three lenses seem to be the norm. As you typically hide the wiring through the fourth lens mounted against the caboose body. 

Some really nice custom built Santa Fe HO marker light modeling can be found here:

ATSF LED Marker Lamps 



Are bicolor green/white LEDs available? I know red/green is a common choice, but green/white sounds like a hard one to find. Especially a nice warm white color as opposed to the blue tint typical in most white LEDs. 

*Guess I answered my question, * amazing how LED technology keeps progressing to have so many color options.


*Kingbright Bicolor SMD LED*


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Very interesting subject. 

A lot of guys in Europe run US-type trains, but when it comes to all the special lighting effects, even the simple, relatively straight forward ones like Mars lights and Gyra-lights, most of them don't have a clue what is used when and where since none of the European prototypes use them. 

Classification lights are even more of a mystery since it is a bit difficult to find accurate information on the net for specific railroads and time periods. 
I'm going to try to summarize the information in this thread which I'm sure will come in handy for anyone over there who has bought a Consolidation. 

Finding a suitable white/green SMD LED won't be that easy either I imagine. 
This is not a very common color combination especially when one probably needs a warm white or sunny white (rather than the normal blueish tint white along with a mid- to dark green and I would think a viewing angle of 120 degrees or larger. 
It'll be interesting which LEDs turn out to be suitable and how many different choices there will be. 

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By San Juan on 15 Sep 2011 12:42 PM 

Are bicolor green/white LEDs available? I know red/green is a common choice, but green/white sounds like a hard one to find. Especially a nice warm white color as opposed to the blue tint typical in most white LEDs. 

*Guess I answered my question, * amazing how LED technology keeps progressing to have so many color options.


*Kingbright Bicolor SMD LED*

I see I was asking the same questions.

I think one problem is to be able to buy an SMD LED in small quantities, especially ones that aren't very common like the green/white ones.
These SMD LEDs are usually sold on a reel for automated insertion machines - the Kingbright one I just looked at is sold at 1500 pieces per reel and the spec sheet doesn't really say much about the specific white that is emitted.

Knut


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

* Greg, *


*I have a real set of class lights from one of TP&W's Northern's. They are only two sided. They also have a small lever the changes the clear lenses to green lenses. Thanks, Rex*


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

In regards to the large RED mars light on the front of locomotives it was only used in emergency's when stopped on the main line. On the SP diesels they came on when the train went into emergency braking.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

The C&NW ran a busy steam commuter service In the day time, classification lights on the loco were replaced by flags. Sometime classification lights were run on kerosene. Same with markers, like on the CNS&M; in the day you had to be right in front of them at arms length to tell if they were even lit.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have changed out the classification lights on one of my new 2-8-0's. The second one will follow shortly. I used 1.6mm white leds from Led-Switch. Here is the website. http://www.led-switch.com/1.6%20LED.htm They are not chips and have leads attached. They also have some warm white in 2mm but I'm not sure if they will fit into the light housing. Here are a few photos. The loco on the left has the stock lights. The stock 5 volt lamps are not nearly as bright as in the photos. These leds do have a slight bluish tint but acceptable to me. This install uses 14.4v batteries with a 1000 ohm current limiting resistor.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm busy trimming the 3rd lens of the 2 lights, will putty and fill. 

I have some very small bicolor ones coming and will see if I can fit 2 of them inside. I am likewise not really pleased with the bulbs in the Consolidation, anywhere. I'll post a picture of the modified tender light soon. 

Greg


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

A little follow up. I finished the second loco and was able to get them outside for a little running. I was very pleased with the look of the new lights. The are bright enough to be seen during the day. The old incandescent lamps for the most part were not. The white leds do look like white lamps,especially in contrast witht the yelo-glow 5mm leds I used on the headlights.


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