# Battery operation/battery charging via track power



## silvercity (Mar 25, 2009)

Hello - 

The things I have heard about charging batteries via track power run from "It's great!" to "It does not work worth a @#$%." 

Can anyone give me the straight scoop on this ? 

Also can someone recommend hardware which is on the smallish side as I am running 1880's style locos with small tenders (Delton C-16, Accuraft 1/24, and LGB moguls.)

Thanks in advance - CDS


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello CDS. 

I am one of those with 25 years experience in battery R/C of Large Scale locos who is in the "It does not work worth a @#$%" camp. 
To make it work properly you will still need to keep the track clean. Which kind of defeats the purpose. 
There are other much simpler ways of obtaining longer run times. 
But to each his own. 

As to small hardware. 
That does kind of depend on whether or not you are having sound as well. 
No matter, I make a number of quite small ESC's that will fit the locos you describe. 
The biggest problem for you will be your choice of batteries. 
I much prefer Ni Cd chemistry and for the LGB Mogul it is easy to fit 14.4 volt sub C batteries in the available space along with the hardware and sound system. 
The other locos you mentioned may require AA size cells and in that case stay away from Ni Cd and NiMh cells. The only AA batteries I can recommend are the ENELOOP brand from SANYO. Even then you can expect a shortened life span if the current draw exceeds 1 amp. 
Your other choice of batteries are Li-Ion. A subject I am not that familiar with. If you do opt for Li-Ion make absolutely certain the batteries you choose have effective over and under voltage cut offs. 

Good luck with your quest.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello CDS, Tony is correct you can not charge a battery-pack from DC track power...but within 6 months my company "Cordless Renovations" will be coming out with a side track 24V charging station that you will be able to drive your train engine or battery-power car onto, and charge your battery while operating another train engine. We have a working prototype, but it's going to take a little time and refine it. It should be ready for the 2010 ECLST Show in York, PA. I will keep you updated. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This comes up often. I have to disagree with one thing Tony said, if you design your system like the people who have success with this method, you don't need clean track. 

Now, what is success? 

Extended run time by adding SOME charge to the batteries... basically you cannot use a battery charger onboard, because the power interruptions would keep resetting it, and you would probably wind up overcharging. 

So, what can you do? You can put voltage on the track, and set up a simple circuit to put a constant voltage to the battery. This voltage cannot be the same as a normal charger, because you have no "smarts" to monitor current, battery state, etc. 

So if you had 12v batteries, and put a 12v regulator in the loco, then it would keep the batteries to 12v (normal charging voltage for a 12v battery is higher, so you cannot overcharge the battery). 

But, all that you will accomplish is a partial charge of the battery, so you will not get "top performance" 

But, this can work, and if the variation in battery voltage does not bother you (and it might not be noticible), it can work. 

I would find this useful if I ran a loco for a while, parked it, ran another, and then went back to the original loco. 

Remember that "charging time" will be very slow, nowhere near what it would be on a real charger. 

I cannot see much utility in this method. In addition, it is sort of the worst way to maintain a battery, this method will lead to sulphation and internal shorts sooner. 

I would put charging jacks on my locos, and charge them up when not running, and just have enough capacity in the battery packs for the run times I desire. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick, 
I didn't say you couldn't do it. I just don't think it is worth the effort. 
I used to make just such a track powered on board charger. Greg is right, that if you make the values in the charger suit one particluar battery voltage, they will be wrong for any other value. 
Plus, most batteries that charge with a constant current need a fairly high overhead voltage to enable any charge at all. That means a speed difference between when the loco is running on track power and when it is running purely on batteries. 
Plus what Greg said about constantly resetting. That could be very dangerous especially with Li-Ion or Li-Pol chemistry. 

Parking the loco on a charging track that is supplied with the correct type of charger for the loco could be practical. 

Greg, 
Not only does the track have to be clean but you also have to make sure there is continuity between each section of rail to actually carry the voltage in the track. 
If you go to that sort of trouble you might just as well run track power.


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## rayjturner (Feb 20, 2008)

I tried this once using a trickle charge technique. It's very tricky, trying to create a charging current that is sufficient to keep up with engine draw without overcharging the battery when the train is stopped. Modern batteries like NiMH and LiOn must NOT be overcharged. 

What I do now is run track power with battery backup - the trains (which are radio controlled with onboard throttle control) run off constant track voltage when the tracks are not dirty and the battery fills in over the dirty spots. This can provide for very long run times if the track is mostly clean and reasonable run times even with very dirty track. However, the batteries are not charged from the track. 

What I think would work, although I've never tried it, is the kind of charger in notebook computers. The computeer runs off wall power when plugged in, off battery when not plugged in, and the batteries are kept charged when plugged in. The electronics is very smart and keeps from overcharging the batteries, even LiOn.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With LiIon batteries giving you 5+ hour run times with very little space (2 x 3 x 3" or thereabouts) why bother? Run time isn't the issue it used to be. Even with NiMH batteries, you're going to get 2 - 3 hour run times. It's far easier to make the batteries swappable and keep some on charge for when the first set goes flat. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with East Broad Top. That is exactly what I do on my railroad. For me, to have to get charging current through the track, and keeping the track "reasonably" clean, defeats my whole purpose for going with battery power. Besides, if I run power through my track, then I would have to worry about my "several" reversing sections along my mainline!! After following the thread on reversing loops, I really don't want to have to deal with that.

Ed


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Some folks just talk about it and others are doing it. 
Why not ask those doing it now, how it works? 

http://iptrains.com/main.sc


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

A guy at the Botanic couldn't understand why I didn't bother to charge the batteries from the track. 

Of course, others have been certain we'd be better off with nickle-silver instead of brass, or sure we ran only LGB trains, or certain we'd be better off if we converted everything to DCC, or on and on... People are always amazed at the computer we have coordinating all the trains.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I have to disagree with Tony here..

It does work. There are restrictions that apply, but I run a system that does exactly that, the battery recharges from the track. 

The concept is NOT to replenish the total discharge of the battery in real time, but to allow a loco to recharge while standing or running on a partially powered part of the layout.

You can DIY or you can buy the solution from IPTrains.com

- gws


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

George. 
Please re-read what I said above. 
I have never said it wouldn't work. 
I said, I personally don't think it is an idea worth doing because of the track preparation and maintenance involved. Over time the track conductivity, ie between the joints and the crud on the rail surface, degenerates to such an extent that the time spent charging is insufficient to maintain any charge in the batteries. 
Then you have to maintain the joints and clean the track. In which case, you might just as well go with track power in the first place.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I guess that we have a basic difference of opinion. For some people, it does work and it can be worth the trouble. For those that keep their trains on the layout, in a train shed of some kind, having the shed track powered allows a train to be driven in for storage and fed at the same time. It is then not necessary to ever lift the engine from the track except for shop level maintenance. There are some folks in the LA area that do just that. 

In one case that I am aware of, much of the main line is powered with reverse loops and wye's left unpowered. Properly prepared track joints produce reliable continuity for years. My own layout is entirely track powered and I've had to pay attention to a track joint only a few times in the last decade. 

Environment can play a role. Some folks report much different results, but in this area anyway, track power is by far the most common.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Run!!!! Run as fast as you can from this subject. Your brain will fry ,your hair will get gray.. the world will end before we find an answer to this Q. 

PS if your really interested in simply seeing how the dark side works, come visit our open house this next weekend. There will be no pressure to convert you, just play our way ...for awhile.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,. 
It is all just a matter of opinion. 
I do object to anyone saying I said something when I did not say it.


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

You folks are discussing this subject at cross purposes. There is a Very Big difference between track charging when stationary and when moving. George S's methodology of parking in a shed is easy to do. Tony is viewing this charge method as happening while rolling. The truth is that with modern battery technology, run times are so long that the extra complexity of this track charging/wiring/ setup is not generally worth it. You can now pack enough energy in a small space so as to make it easy to have the pack removable, so even a very small 2 hour run time pack can be endlessly changed out with a spare on an alternate basis. Smart chargers can now make the charge time essentially equal to the run time. KISS very much applies here. 

Jonathan/EMW


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By K27_463 on 21 Sep 2009 08:02 PM 
... KISS very much applies here. 

Jonathan/EMW 










Exactly!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Unless of course you are one of those that need to promote the use of track power.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Or you need to promote battery, and hate any form of track power. 

This statement is also true. 

I could see the use of doing this in specialized cases... the obvious one that lets you charge gel and nicad from the rails while the trains are parked should not be an argument. It does NOT take hygenically clean track to pick up power. 

I could also see the "on-board" trickle charger as extending run times on small locos with small packs. 

One thing I have seen stated and I disagree with is the statement that basically all locos can have easily removable packs for charging and swapping out. I've looked at ALL the battery install pictures, and Tony you have shown a number where you would have to disassemble the loco to get the batteries out. 

Read carefully the first part of the paragraph above.... the statements have been made by Kevin an Tony imply that this is always easy. I maintain it is not, so again, for SOME cases, it's not easy to have a swappable pack. 

Tony, you don't like the idea, fine. Kevin, I guess you have big locos or battery cars. 

There are people doing this with success, so your personal feelings, while valid, do not invalidate those people doing this successfully, i.e. it does what they want. 

This does not have to be an all or nothing argument. And accusing George of "feeling the need to promote the use of track power" is an unneeded jab at someone who has earned the respect and admiration of MANY people in the hobby. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm doing this right now, using the rig from IP trains in an old LGB 0-4-0 switcher. Why? I have all my locos stored outside. We have a small house in a semi urban neighborhood, and there's no room inside for chargers and locos and extra packs. It's a pain to run them out and set them up by hand, and I like the convenience of flipping a switch and I'm running. 

I have a spur I set up so kids could play without "fouling the main," and that spur tends to get dirtier because of its location. I don't want removable battery packs because I don't want kids pulling the thing apart. Track continuity is fine, but the surface gets dirty. So the little lgb loco charges in its shed when the track is on, and runs without problems over any track when kids play with it. Voila! 

meanwhile everything else runs under DCC 

It seems to me, in this very specific application, to give me the advantages of both with no hassles.


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Now now Greg. 

Where have I ever said I HATE!!! track power? I certainly am on record as acknowledging that in certain circumstances track power as the fixed source for on board control is appropriate. Be it DCC or R/C. I can also understand having stationary locos charging from a track supply. 
However, from my 25 years experience doing this, trying to keep batteries charged from track power whilst moving unnecessarily complicates an installation. 
I just happen to believe that battery R/C is *much less complicated* and arguably way less expensive, given certain criteria. 
Nowhere have I ever advocated removal of batteries for charging. 
In fact, I always advocate charging on board and having the charge jack at the back of the loco to double as a port for auxiliary batteries carried in a trail car, to extend run times. 

I agree with Jonathan. Never more than in this situation was the KISS principle needed.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

OH,,,,The world is coming to an end!!!!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

"OH,,,,The world is coming to an end!!!!" 

Faster than this argument, I'm afraid.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not sure what the argument is--ia couple things seem really clear

*Q1: Can you charge a battery from track power if the loco is just parked?*


Answer: Yes, if track voltage is high enough and constant. I'm doing this right now and it works


*Q2: Can you charge the battery while the loco is in operation?* 


Answer: Not really

*Q3: Is charging from the track a good idea?*

Answer: depends on your circumstances


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've said it, 
Jonathan said it and now Mike has said it. 

Nice to see some agreement at last. 
Without the need for misquoting what anyone has said.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

At 24v the Stainless steel track does not have to be polished clean... I get a charge after pushing the Aristo track cleaning car around twice with a loco... unmodified and simple on battery power. 

The only place for my batteries was in the boiler, IT IS NOT EASY TO GET IN THERE, thus no pack switcher roo. Not fond of jacks for plugs...all the handy places are too obvious, for me. 

One man, two trains, even with one on automated critter control both rarely run at the same time, plenty of time for re-upping the charge. 

As I get older my memor.... what's the word... gets weaker. Did I charge that pack? I dunno! 

Won't need to use my burnout oven for recharging Li-ons either! lol 

Or turn it on and let's go. I never have completely drained batteries and once I've built the storage/charging barn I'll always start fresh. 

Installing the electronics will always be my bug-a-boo, once that's done I'll have a hands-off sytem, Perfect for me. 

Once installed it is the KISS method. 

It's too bad you can't expound on the merits of your system without disparging all the others. 

While semantically it was never stated that it can't work, it WAS implied. Sounded like one was derriding another for that choice... to me, my opinion. 

Track cleanliness is not an issue if my batteries provide an adequate run time and recharge in their shed. They also get a boost when running and stopping on powered sections, extending that time. 

Finally IPTrains has been using NiMH batteries with no ill affects, so I'm not sure about Tony's warning on them. 

Polk gets poked for inaccurate statements, looking above it appears he has company..... 

Sincerely, 
John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

... Kevin, I guess you have big locos or battery cars. 
You mean something like this?  









You don't need space to do swappable batteries, you just need to engineer access. For steam locos, a removable coal load or smokebox front is the usual method. For diesels, a removable hood, dynamic brake blister, fuel tank, etc. often fits the bill. These are the installations for which I'm using quickly-rechargable NiMH batteries so I can keep running just by swapping old for new. So long as you can charge the cells quicker than they run down (which is almost always the case) you're in good shape. 

It is an absolute given that there are some locos and installations for which removable batteries are simply not an option. That's where the newer battery technology has significant advantages. My smallest tender is a dedicated installation. It uses a LiIon battery that gives me 7+ hours run time. With capacity like that, there's no need (in my opinion) to recharge your batteries while you're running. After 7 hours of operations, I'm ready to see a new locomotive. 

Can you charge your batteries from the track? Absolutely. As others have pointed out, there are products on the market that will let you do that. Is it more trouble than its worth? My personal opinion is yes, for the reasons outlined above. But you've got to gauge what works for your situation. 

Later, 

K


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I really like the idea of removable batteries and have started using them in all of my installations.

My smallest install is in my cut down Bachmann Railtruck
















I use magnets to hold the door in place; with it off, it's easy enough to remove the battery.


Making the batteries removable means that I don't have to add the charging circuit and plug.


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Wish I'd noticed this thread when it was live, no, better I missed it, I might have said something nasty ;-) Everyone here has a chunk of the truth (mostly). We make the product mentioned above. It works, period. I have an 'unconditional 90 day no questions asked we'll take it back even after you install it and cut the wires' guarantee on the blasted thing ;-) But it's not magic and it doesn't violate the laws of physics, you can't charge a battery as fast as you can discharge one, we all know that. TrainUPS is designed to be supplementary on board power for those of us who are too lazy to clean track and wire reversing loops. 

The key phrase in that sentence is 'supplementary on board power'. Run the train during the day, park in the train shed over night, charged and ready to go in the morning. And no, with proper engineering NiMHs don't vent, develop memory or any other bad things if left floating at 10%C. I have packs that are well over three years old, on float power 24x7, still working pretty well. In all honesty I normally replace packs at 2 years but it's a pain to pop the short hood on the RS3 so it tends to go forever... There are * are limitations *, the track power voltage range is quite narrow, see http://www.iptrains.org/mediawiki/index.php/Why_14_cells? 

Tech details on the system at http://www.iptrains.org/mediawiki/index.php/TrainUPS_Battery_conversion_kits 

JT 

PS: This is all George's fault, we swiped the idea from him ;-)


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If one were to put a charging jack on the car with the batteries, Tender, box car, covered gondola, or the engine it's self one could construct a place on the layout to do the charging. 
In the case of batteries in a diesel engine one could have a refuieling station with a charging jack from the battery charger. Then one could just park the engine there and charge it. The box car could be a factory of some kind along with the covered gondola . The tender could be a coaling tower. Just a thought


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

If one were to put a charging jack on the car with the batteries, Tender, box car, covered gondola, or the engine it's self one could construct a place on the layout to do the charging. 
In the case of batteries in a diesel engine one could have a refuieling station with a charging jack from the battery charger. Then one could just park the engine there and charge it. The box car could be a factory of some kind along with the covered gondola . The tender could be a coaling tower. Just a thought 
Posted By John J on 12 Nov 2009 04:57 AM

John, Excellent idea! Been there, done that. I have drop down power plugs in the top of the 'snow sheds' where the trains park that plug into charging jacks that bypass the TrainUPS front end and deliver a faster charge for when I run out of 'coal' unexpectedly. Doesn't happen too often but it's nice to have it.

Normally I just tie up at night after a session and let the track do the charging, I'm far too lazy to walk all the way out there and plug stuff in. All operations here (unless something goes awry) on done over on board video from the trains. I rarely see them running from the 'airplane view', I normally see them from the engineer's view.

Best ... JT


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Is there any problem leaving the transformer on all night for the charge?


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I like the track powered locomotive UPS. If I were to do this I would only power track at night for charging in the engine shed. Turn off power to the rest of the railroad in case any little critter knocked something conductive across the rails.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, he said: 

"The key phrase in that sentence is 'supplementary on board power'. Run the train during the day, park in the train shed over night, charged and ready to go in the morning. And no, with proper engineering NiMHs don't vent, develop memory or any other bad things if left floating at 10%C." 

Since I'm probably more familiar with the terminology, it was not confusing, but I see now what you are asking. 

Certain batteries can be left with a "float charge" basically forever, more than overnight, forever. The "float charge" is a constant, low level charging current, that keeps the battery "topped off" without damaging it. 

Nicads, lead acid (which includes gel cells), and nickel metal hydrides can handle this. Li-ion cannot. 

So what JT was saying is yes, you can leave it on overnight, over 2 nights, forever. 

The downside of a float charge rate is that if it's all you use, it can be a slow recharge. 

Regards, Greg


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Right, standard trickle charge time with the NiMH pack we use is 5 hours given the current flow that TrainUPS allows. But if you're charging overnight, who cares ?









JT


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Jerry,

Are you talking about the 24V track power supply? Depends on what you've got. I use telco/computer grade stuff for primary power and it is designed for 24x7 operation so in my case, no. With some of the stuff out there, perhaps. 

JT


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Posted By rmcintir on 12 Nov 2009 09:10 AM 
I like the track powered locomotive UPS. If I were to do this I would only power track at night for charging in the engine shed. Turn off power to the rest of the railroad in case any little critter knocked something conductive across the rails. 

Not had that problem. Have had the problem of little critters getting themselves across the rails. Most are not bothered by 24V but for the frogs, it's fatal. Yes we have frogs in the desert (actually they're probably toads..). They get across the rails, our power supplies are all 'hiccup mode' supplies so they get barbecued as the power comes and goes (think cattle fence) and dry out on the rails and become little train traps. Very hard once dry! Since we operate by video from the cab and operate a lot at night, this is an issue during frog season. Not too bad in a diesel with ditch lights, you can normally spot them in time to brake but from the cab of a large steam engine, with all that boiler in front of you, at night, yeah, it's a problem. I've had some fairly spectulacular derailments...

JT

PS: It doesn't bother the blasted rattle snakes a bit, I've watched them just slither across a dual track main. Safely, from the cab via video









PPS: What's the secret to proper quoting in this editor anyhow?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

One thing that might help some understand the Floating concept and run times.. 

Battery folks tend to think in how long will a pack operate my loco? 

As I understand it; 

With the Trains UPS, track power is used to operate when available and batteries take over in non-powered areas, so it's not a constant battery drain. Thus run times depend more on track configuration than not. My oval, spurs and sidings have no shorting issues and the stronger track power runs the train and gives the bats a trickle if there's left over from operations. When I send it out on the new expansion which includes a revese loop it's on batteries until it returns to track power. Track power is a constant 24v and the Rx draws what it needs. 

My locos are single motor steamers and draw low amperage so my batteries will always be at least 75% charged. Thus the need to plan ahead (battery charging) is forgotten about which really suits my age! 

I've never noticed any physical change in the loco when switching, from one to the other power source, either. 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok let me ask a few questons. 
What if you were to use trucks from a aristo caboose that has the contacts to light the lights in the caboose from track power. 

Is there enougth contact surface of the wheels to the track large enought to carry the curent to charge the average battery if the charger was attacked to the isolated sections of track? 

Set aside for a while the third contact to monitor chargeing. 

If you wanted to do a on board charging of a engine. One could use a three contact plug like for head phones . Put the female in the sand dome or where they add sand. 

Put the Male portion of the plug on a sand tower. That would allow you to park you engine in the maintance yard make it look like it is taking on sand while it's charging 

You could make it a fuel hose for that mater. Water tower? Put it in the spout. 

Just a thought


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't understand what you need a 3rd contact for JJ. And I woudn't use a headphone jack. Those are made for audio, not charging currents, although you might get away with it.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Audio jacks usually short out during insertion and removal. 
Use a DC coax jack.


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Posted By John J on 15 Nov 2009 04:00 PM 
Ok let me ask a few questons. 
What if you were to use trucks from a aristo caboose that has the contacts to light the lights in the caboose from track power. 

Is there enougth contact surface of the wheels to the track large enought to carry the curent to charge the average battery if the charger was attacked to the isolated sections of track? 


Yes, there is. Aristo has used a couple of different pickup methods that I've seen, spring loaded brushes and simple bushings. Either can work. I have two Aristo cabeese set up with video in this manner. The key here is that we use a trickle charge with TrainUPS and thus the current rarely exceeds about 500ma, which those contacts can handle safely. ditto the Aristro snow plow. Both George and I have plows set up like this but his uses the 14 Cell battery that is used with a full blown TrainUPS and mine uses a newer 6 cell circuit that is more suitable for video only (no loco power) installations. In both cases we trickle charge so the current is quite low.



Set aside for a while the third contact to monitor chargeing. 

If you wanted to do a on board charging of a engine. One could use a three contact plug like for head phones . Put the female in the sand dome or where they add sand. 

Put the Male portion of the plug on a sand tower. That would allow you to park you engine in the maintance yard make it look like it is taking on sand while it's charging 

You could make it a fuel hose for that mater. Water tower? Put it in the spout. 

Just a thought 

Sure, but with a trickle charge you really don't need a monitor lead. It self limits when done correctly. I do have one loco set up with 2 jacks, one for the charger and one for the thermal monitor on a smart fast charger. The thermal probe is installed on the pack inside the loco. Don't use it much but it will charge one of our 14 cell packs from 0 to 60 in about 70 minutes. This loco normally just track charges. The fast charge ckt bypasses the TrainUPS front end and goes right to the battery. 

JT 



Ok, how does one do a in line reply and quote in this blasted editor? Help!


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