# live steam grades and switching



## steamdriven (Dec 4, 2019)

So as I am looking at grades. Pretty much think going 1:20.3 rod colorado narrow guage not big like k-27 but more like the C-18, C-19 or mogul. 

Curves planning to be 6ft radius minimum larger as transition.

Grades looking at max 1.5%. Is that reasonable for a rod locomtive with short (3-4) freight or 2 passenger cars especially if not RC.

With RC is switching posdible with live steam as above or best just let them run in a circle?

Is RC hard to add? I have sern a kit for a Ruby but wondered if adaptable to say the mogul or one of the consolidations.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With what I have read, you would have a difficult time even with RC, certainly will take more driving.


Now if your layout is more spread out, and wide radius curves, that should help.


RC does not appear to be hard to add if you follow the recommendations for servos that others have already fitted, but if it's your first time, you might consider having it professionally done.


I'll wait to see what the experts say.


Greg


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

I have had an Accucraft C-16 converted to RC on throttle only for many years. I used to have a Mogul and the C-19 is not much larger but I have no experience with a K-27. On a visit to Fred Mills RR in Canada I was able to haul a passenger train up a long grade with little trouble.
You should have no trouble with the short trains you listed on a 1.5% grade and 6' minimum radius though less grade and larger radius would be better. I have built three portable tracks to demonstrate live steam at train shows. Two had 5' minimum and the third 6' and many locomotives can run on that size.
Switching is also achievable but to do it smoothly you will need to balance fuel, water, boiler pressure and your hand on the throttle. it will take some practice. Half (or more) of the fun of live steam is getting to know your locomotive and what it can accomplish. This is what has kept me interested for over 20 years.
I am not very skilled at RC installation so will leave that advice to others. But if I can do it....
Welcome to our little corner of the railway hobby.
Tom


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

If I were really into Switching , First off I would get an Accucraft 2 cyl shay. It will go up and downgrades with a lot of control. It will also be a good Engine to R/C to do switching with, in Live Steam, not a Rod Engine. You can use a Rod Engine BUT it will take time to learn How I would also go with a 20-foot Diameter YOU WILL BE SORY IF Later on if You get a Bigger Engine.I started with 20 ft and got a Penn T-1 and a Big-Boy and now the layout is 40ft Diameter. Merry Christmas and Happy Steaming 
Why not come to Diamondhead and see the 3 layouts and see fellow Steamers, It will be a Great week for You


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with Bob, the Accucraft 2 cylinder Shay would be excellent for switching and running with grades, as would most any geared engine. You can model both logging and mining operations with a Shay. In fact, via Sam D and the Peter K collection, you can pick up a second hand 2 truck Shay for a Keen price over what they would sell for new. The 2 cylinder is much better than the 3 cylinder by most opinions. Sam also has a couple of the Moguls and the 4-4-0 from Accucraft in that collection if your dead set on a rod engine. Good luck and let us know what you decide to purchase. Mike


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

It is not going up grades that usually causes a problem...


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I run steam rod RC locos (C16, Mason Bogie and coal fired K27) on my RR. I have 5' min Radius and 3 1/2 deg grades on half and nearly flat on the other half. I would strongly advise having RC on both throttle and J-bar as simply closing the throttle on a long down hill will not be enough to control the speed. The loco needs to be driven with J-bar. Tom is right, it definitely takes practice to get it right however I think it is a lot of fun. Especially with the coal fired it is not a case of set and run. If you could find someone that has a layout with hills and a steam rod engine that would let you try it out that would be great. I have had kids as young as 10 run on my RR and they loved it. Good luck.
PS I find 1 1/2 grades quite easy to negotiate with manual control.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Agree on having the 2nd channel control the johnson bar/reverse lever. Lacking brakes of any kind, you need to ease the johnson bar back toward center to "power brake" the locomotive to control your speed on a long or steep downgrade. A geared model is much less prone to this "run away" issue on downgrades with the gearing helping with keeping speed under control via the throttle. This is why a few of us suggested a 2 truck/2 cylinder Shay. Sill narrow gauge(think Gilpin tram railway, Mich/Cal Lumber or Westside Lumber for inspiration). Mike


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

RC is a real asset if you are working on a track with changing grades and it can allow you to do switching movements. Normally there are two issues that determine whether you can put RC into a locomotive: space in the cab for the servos and space somewhere for the receiver and battery. I have two channels in my K-27: one for throttle and one for my steam whistle. I also located the receiver on the front cab wall and the battery beside the back left side of the boiler. This is not ideal because heat and RC don't play well together. For this reason I do not recommend the small blue plastic case servos - they are about the least tolerant to heat. And bigger servos give more power if needed.

It is usually better to have the receiver and battery in the tender. For gas powered Accucraft locomotives this can mean isolating a part of the tender water space for the receiver and battery. RC also hates water!

You noticed that I did not try to RC the reverser on the K-27. On most Accucraft locomotives, there is more drag or resistance than a servo can cope with. If you want to put a servo on that channel, you should do everything possible to reduce that resistance first.

I did not RC my C-19 because there was no easy way to install a servo on the throttle since the back of the boiler put the throttle arm outside the cab. Also Receiver and battery location were going to be challenging.

Finally mixing grades and radius’s. If a K-27 can make a 6 foot radius I doubt it will even pull 3-4 cars on any grade. I faced that issue on a friend’s track with a 10 foot radius and his track was supposed to be level. Shays are your best solution to both issues but will seldom be a really satisfactory RC candidate. And the reverser resistance to movement will be greater on a shay than most rod engines. If you must limit yourself to 6 foot radius, don't expect much in the way of grade performance.

Basically you have set for yourself the most difficult set of challenges. Compromise on one or all of these criteria will increase your chance of success. Good luck.

Ross Schlabach


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The Accucraft Shays can be RC controlled with no major issues usually, they use a piston valve reverser and fixed single eccentrics for each cylinder. So a small micro servo can shift the piston valve with ease. Usually the servos get put in the empty bunker at the rear of the Shay, along with the batter pack and receiver. Simple linkages to the servo arm on the throttle and a push/pull set up to the reversing valve. The leader of our local steam group, Jim Sanders(Wee Bee Loco Works) has a 2 truck Mich/Cal Shay with RC control using one of the RCS palm size controlers and 2 servos. I can get pictures of that at the next steam up if you need to see them. There are high torque and even metal gear/water proof servos on the market, even in the micro size. I see no major issues to RC any of the Accucraft Shays, or even the 3 cylinder Aster Shay. I will be putting RC in my 3 truck Aster Climax geared locomotive here in the coming weeks. It will be a 2 channel set up, throttle and the Stephenson valve gear. Mike


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The Accucraft 2 truck Climax uses a piston valve reverser, but the Westside #3 Heisler has proper Stephenson valve gear and is harder to converted to RC I have read. Most due to be very compact and harder to take apart to mount and hide servos, radio gear ect. My recomendation is to look into one of the 2 truck, 2 cylinder Shays or the 2 truck Climax. Mike


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

steamdriven said:


> So as I am looking at grades. Pretty much think going 1:20.3 rod colorado narrow guage not big like k-27 but more like the C-18, C-19 or mogul.
> Curves planning to be 6ft radius minimum larger as transition.
> Grades looking at max 1.5%. Is that reasonable for a rod locomtive with short (3-4) freight or 2 passenger cars especially if not RC.
> With RC is switching posdible with live steam as above or best just let them run in a circle?
> Is RC hard to add? I have sern a kit for a Ruby but wondered if adaptable to say the mogul or one of the consolidations.


I'm quite surprised no-one mentioned Jack Verducci, who runs/ran an extensive garden railroad quite prototypically using live steam - including all the switching.
Yes, you need r/c to make it work, and you need to fine-tune the loco throttles and learn how to manage the engine. I have had fun switching with a live steamer. Look into the RCS r/c throttles, which are knobs and shirt-pocket sized, yet DSM2 r/c compatible.
1/5% is easy, and small live steamers are just as powerful as the real ones. My EBT Mikado could start 11 hoppers on a 3% grade. It used lots of steam, but it was magnificent to see.

As was mentioned, it's going down hill where you need some finesse. With my C-19 I use the reversing lever (Johnson Bar) to slow/stop the loco, as a trailing throttle doesn't have a very positive (negative?) effect.

As far as fitting r/c, it take practice. I would suggest reading lots of threads here about how to do it. There's no preset easy way.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> I can get pictures of that at the next steam up if you need to see them. There are high torque and even metal gear/water proof servos on the market, even in the micro size.


Mike, I'd be very interested in seeing those pictures, and I'd also like to know more about those high-torque servos! I'm currently running a two-cyl. Accu Shay with a single servo on the J-bar, and a three-cylinder manually which I'd like to convert.

TIA,

-GaryW2-


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Need my friend that does more RC related hobby stuff to chime in as he would know more on the servos. But a call to any good RC hobby shop, we have a couple in the Indianapolis area that have an awsome RC department, should answer servo questions. I am using mostly older Futaba full size servos in both my Pearse Earl and 0-4-0 Switcher. I will take plenty of pics when I do my Aster Climax. I will talk to the owner of the 2 truck Shay and see if he can bring it to the next steam up. He will be at the large Diamondhead steam up in a couple weeks. Not sure if he is taking that Shay there this year or not. On Shays or Marine engines with proper Stephenson valve gear, shifting the gear does take some balls on the servo, especially when everything is hot and not run in yet. This was also an issue on the real engines I have read in my books on them. The trick according to one hogger was the shift the gear to the other direction as the engine just came to a stop. This helped the die block slide in the expansion link vs waiting till the engine completely stopped. Use of stiff wire rods with ball and socket ends helps with flex when trying to shift valve gear. It does take some thought along with trial and error to find the right geometry when setting up servos sometimes. Mike the Aspie


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

All I can say is that grade really affects our small (Even large) model steamers more then you would think.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

My mainline is a level loop, but the branchline running up to my steamup bays has a 2.5% grade. I also have a siding off the main as another place to steam up or to die for those who don't want to tackle the grade, but there is something very satisfying about the sound of a live steamer tackling the grade with a decent train in tow. I also arranged the sidings in my steamup yard based on the design of the iconic John Allen "Timesaver" switching puzzle. It's fun to switch with live steam, and running out of fuel or water adds a built-in time restriction for Timesaver operations. Having R/C helps but isn't absolutely necessary.


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## steamdriven (Dec 4, 2019)

Thank you everyone for the advice. Yes, I could go larger radius if I wanted a simple loop but really want to have something more. While I wish everything could be live steam I am looking at mixing in at times steam outline with battery. 



Well playing around with the track software some more, I can get more or less the idea I like without theoretical grades. I know that there will always be some dips and such that will form up in the roadbed that will need to taken care of.


Alright, now looking at the shay (28t version) as it reminds me more of what was used on some Colorado lines. 



Anyone had any experience with the now older Accucraft Mason Bogies? I am thinking that with the chance of the 'bogie' to swivel, 6 coupled wheelbase and blind center driver perhaps as a rod locomotive might be more forgiving on such smaller curves like 12ft diameter. The cab and tender look large enough to get some RC gear in it as well.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I dont think the Mason Bogie will like any type of grade. The 2 cylinder Accucraft Shay, such as the MIch/Cal #2 run much better than the 3 cylinder 28 ton models. The 3 cylinder ones gobble up water and just dont seem to run as well for one reason or another. Check out the 2 cylinder that is for sale from Peter Kasian's estate collection here on MLS. You can pick up a Shay for a really Keen price. Several other models on there for sale that would be of interest to you. Rich Black has the Accucraft Mason Bogie and it is really beautiful. I know on his the cow catcher is very close to the rail head, so smooth track work would be very important.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

steamdriven said:


> Thank you everyone for the advice. Yes, I could go larger radius if I wanted a simple loop but really want to have something more. While I wish everything could be live steam I am looking at mixing in at times steam outline with battery.


That's what los of us do. Jerry (NaptownEng) has steam, battery and track power. His corners are 5 1/2 ft radius, about 11 ft diameter and lots of steam engines will handle that. The Bowande Russian Decapod (2-10-0) ran fine, as does my C-19 and his C-16 and USRA 0-6-0.



> Well playing around with the track software some more, I can get more or less the idea I like without theoretical grades. I know that there will always be some dips and such that will form up in the roadbed that will need to taken care of.


I think you are over-thinking this. a 1% grade is nothing. Any live steamer will handle it, and as long as it isn't going too fast over the top it will manage to come down without derailing.



> Alright, now looking at the shay (28t version) as it reminds me more of what was used on some Colorado lines.


The shays are very forgiving, especially as a first loco, and will handle almost any scenario. And they do not go fast, unlike a Ruby!



> Anyone had any experience with the now older Accucraft Mason Bogies? I am thinking that with the chance of the 'bogie' to swivel, 6 coupled wheelbase and blind center driver perhaps as a rod locomotive might be more forgiving on such smaller curves like 12ft diameter. The cab and tender look large enough to get some RC gear in it as well.


 I think you will find that most Accucraft 1:20 locos will handle 4' radius curves. Even the K-36, which I can attest will run on 4' radius curves. The ones that won't are the big engines in 1/32nd scale, like the N&W J611, or the Aster Mikados.
The Mason bogie says 4' min radius, so I think you'll find it a very nice engine. I understand it is quite fiddly to make the reversing gear work by r/c, due to the rocking lever over the boiler.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 2 Mason Bogies, 1 that I built before I knew that Accucraft was going to build them and an Accucraft. They both will handle 10 ft dia. curves. I have done numerous modifications which include changes to the valve train to eliminate the built in slop and get the expansion link to be in the down position when in forward. The tender contains so much electronics that I cannot use it for water and it does not have an axle pump. I added an electronic water level with a quick disconnect Goodall valve and plumbing to allow a trailing water car to be used. I added RC to the throttle and J-bar and that works well. I did adjust the cow catcher a little and grind a bit off the bottom but it is still pretty close to the rail.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a general thought on installing RC. It's one of the things I study very carefully at meetings. There are simply so many things one can do some other way. Also I find studying things IRL makes it simpler to notice and understand small aspects on things.

But browsing webpages can certainly give inspiration. Like I found pictures of a reverser servo install, where the servo was mounted in between the the frames, in the wrong end of the reversing rod, instead of in the cab, where one would normally operate a reverser. Everything moves as usual, just the servo acts on the reversing mechanism in an unexpected place.

I don't think I would ever have come up with that idea on my own.

I believe one member here uses chain and two sprocketwheels to connect the servo and throttle. Yet another interesting variation.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I believe one member here uses chain and two sprocketwheels to connect the servo and throttle.


Not just one - quite a few of us use 1/8" (0.125") chain and sprockets. It helps in adjusting the amount of throttle movement for a conventional 90 degree servo.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

In the olden and golden days of steam locomotion the fireman worked the hardest stoking the fire for higher boiler pressure for more steam thus fire for more steam pressure. Seems reasonable the same practice applies in our maller world. Maybe not for a small locomotive with a small load but with larger locomotive and the greater the load on a locomotives trying to climb very long shallow grade or a steeper grade more steam is required. Either that or you lose steam pressure with the climb as the steam pressure drops precipitously.

Therefore, if your using RC you need a servo on the gas valve or alcohol valve (not an alcoholic I don't know too much about their firing) or running after a coal locomotive shoveling coal to build steam pressure as well as the steam throttle to increase steam to the cylinders.. 

Like Tim Allen used to say on his sitcom Home Improvement, "AAAAhhhh, more power, more power.)

Is there something I'm missing or wrong about steam locomotive climbing?

If your running a Shay little of this applies but they're too slow to be fun with grades for me. Their great for switching but then that's kinds too slow for me too.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Running on a level railroad is boring. See my Betsy pulling 2 heavy flat cars up a hill:







or for that matter my cog loco (under construction):








Regards


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Is there something I'm missing or wrong about steam locomotive climbing?


Chris, well, yes, there is another option. My live steamers may stop on the hill due to lack of puff, but the steam pressure builds up again and then they start moving again - just like the prototype. No need to adjust the gas or alcohol. Doesn't work for a single cylinder like Otto, but I have seen this happen with most of my trains.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Steam and grades really comes down to what the OP desires in operation. Does he want to sit back, switch off the control(or manual control) and just watch the train run without needing constant attention to the throttle(unless switching/setting out cars), or does he want to be controling the throttle 100% of the time? Grades add opearating challenges, just as on the real ones. Keeping grades mild as possible and curves as large as possible adds to the enjoyment and lessens the risk of a rollover on a curve at the bottom of a grade should speed get a little out of hand. There is also the Slomo inetia device from down under that fits a few models from Roundhouse and Accucraft(mostly UK/Euro models though) that gives the model the response of a real engine that weighs several tons instead of just a few pounds.


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## steamdriven (Dec 4, 2019)

Well not a two cylinder, but did get a 28t shay. Looks like a nice steady steamer.


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## SparkyJoe (Oct 14, 2012)

Pauli said:


> Just a general thought on installing RC. It's one of the things I study very carefully at meetings. There are simply so many things one can do some other way. Also I find studying things IRL makes it simpler to notice and understand small aspects on things.
> 
> But browsing webpages can certainly give inspiration. Like I found pictures of a reverser servo install, where the servo was mounted in between the the frames, in the wrong end of the reversing rod, instead of in the cab, where one would normally operate a reverser. Everything moves as usual, just the servo acts on the reversing mechanism in an unexpected place.
> 
> ...


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I would tend to agree with Mr Welticks advice: keep those curves as large as possible They are the offenders we never think about. Although I personnaly don't indulge in RC, because I like the hands on aproach. I can vouch that on Adam Houghton's fabulous track at Staplehurst in Kent, masterfully built by my good friend John Butler there is a main oval with 26' radius curves and a branch. When you take the branch there is a 1% drop to a viaduct across the pond, followed by a short siding (with a water plug - most recomended) after which you climb back out always at 1%, and beleive me that is very spectacular with a T1 and a good size train.You really get to see your engine at work! But with large radius it works well too.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Chris, well, yes, there is another option. My live steamers may stop on the hill due to lack of puff, but the steam pressure builds up again and then they start moving again - just like the prototype. No need to adjust the gas or alcohol. Doesn't work for a single cylinder like Otto, but I have seen this happen with most of my trains.


I think new old timer would say, "That's no way to run a railroad." Even more so for a revenue operation of olden days - start stop, stop start, stop start... See an unsustainable pattern forming?

And so your saying the fireman on a Shay, Highsler, etc., did nothing while lagging up a steep hill trying to make more steam by stoking the fare ? Bet the other loggers loved that guy. Somehow I think pretty quickly he took a short swim off their tallest trestle. Sure it probably happened but the firman was anything but taking a cat nap.

 

 



Besides, you're denying the fire it's chance to lend a helping hand. You're also forgetting the first rule of steaming; more steam. Absolutely first the engineer orders more steam and opens up the throttle to beat the hill before his load overloads and slows or brings operations to a halt. Call it a game between the train and hill to the top of the hill - who gets there first?

I suggest we stop counting angels on the head of a pin 'cause we're never going to agree on the size of the angeles or size of the pin's head. I learned a while ago onceuponatime the point end was actually really thought of as the 'head' of the pin. Never sewed so I don't know these histories things.
hummmmmmm.


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