# Basic radio control



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Hello out there. I'm new to the RC systems so I have a question about basic RC operation with batteries. What would be the simplest system to use on an electric engine like a Bachmann to provide basic sppe control and reversing? I don't care about sound or other functions, I just want to make it run with a battery instead of track power. I would prefer a stick controller of some kind instead of a push button controller. It doesn't matter to me if it's an RC car type or plane type. Cost and ease of setup are important, I don't want to have to program anything with a computer to make it work.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Your best bet for "simple" as you describe it will be either Tony Walsham's RCS stuff (as opposed to Cordless Renovations' "RCS" pushbutton control), or Del Taparro's (G-Scale Graphics) "Rail-Boss" R/C. Tony and Del worked together on developing this stuff, so they both work very similarly. Both use inexpensive 2.4 gHz 2-stick R/C controllers (Google "Hobby King" and you can find some that work well for around $25, or you can go with the more expensive "Spektrum" brand stuff, which will run you between $100 - $200 depending on the bells and whistles you want.) Hopefully they'll chime in here, but Tony just posted a thread on installing R/C in the Thomas "James," and he has similar threads on installations throughout here as well. 

Later, 

K


----------



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

I started with a "Critter Control" basic controller which I bought used with a simple two channel RC radio and controller. The modification to the engine was simply opening it up, cutting the wires from the pickups and connecting them via jumpers to a boxcar where I placed the RC receiver, the controller, and a drill motor battery from the home improvement store. No programming required, controlled the train just fine. You can get the low cost controller from G-Scale Graphics. Look at http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/ Then just jump in and do it. You'll find lots of help here. 

Michael


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi Amber - I would suggest my "Basic RailBoss" control for you.
This document will tell you what you need and where to get it. ... "What do I need for battery power?" 
And if you read the front part of the manual for the Basic RailBoss, it will tell you the generic instructions for converting to battery power. 

If you have more questions, feel free to ask here or give me an e-mail or phone call. 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

For many years Digital Proportional stick radios were shunned for battery R/C'ing Large Scale model trains. The problem was they suffered from what was known as "Glitching". Because the popular systems were all AM they suffered Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). This then caused sudden unwanted jerking of the loco which would often damage the loco gears. 
Once 2.4 Ghz stick radios became available, all those interference problems disappeared. Now you can have proper proportional speed and direction control quite economically. My RCS systems must use 2.4 Ghz R/C for best results. 

Yes Del and I have co-operated on developing our systems. Del actually wrote my operating program. Our systems are similar but there are differences. 
I offer three different models including a tiny low cost 3 amp model (ideal for the Big Hauler), a bigger 6 amp model for big locos and a Plug'n'Play model for installation in AristoCraft and Bachmann locos that have the standard PnP interface. The regular R/C RX's are not connected by servo leads to my decoder part. They simply plug in upside down. 

At the RCS website there is a list with click-able links to articles I have written on how to install battery R/C into many different locos.


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I see that this is going to be an expensive project no matter which way I go. I might try using the guts from a cheap RC car and see if that works well enough for my purpose. Just have to wait for the after Christmas clearance sales. A basic ESC for an RC car might work also, just have to get one for a brushed motor. I found a couple that have the reverse function in them for not too much money. Gotta buy a radio and receiver either way but the basic 2.4 gig system isn't too expensive. No momentum, but I can live with that.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber this does not need to be expensive as was stated for about $150 (I am estimating) a cheap Hobby King radio and one of the speed controllers and you are looking at some work to install but not much with a ton of back up & support from either Tony or Del when you do it. Not to mention the rest of us here at MLS. Tony has noted the problems with the old RC car radios on AM or even FM frequencies. This is compounded by using a cheap RC toy for your controls. Beyond using Am frequencies they are generally only using one of a small handfull of frequencies and overlap is bound to occur if there is someone else runnign something near you. The RC car Electronic speed controllers generally are set up for all out speed in forward and a single slower speed in reverese or only regenerative braking. There are some that might work but again they are a bit more expensive. That leads you back to the recommendations here. 

I recently purchased a Spektrum radio (10 model memory) with hopes to set up 2 of my live steamers and at least one of my sparkies wiht a control I bought from Del and some batteries. My winter project. It is not the cheapest solution but it will work for these locomotives. I've got some Airwire equipment I've not gotten to run either and that has about the same expense in it and will not control my LS loco's. This should be simpler to install and to maintain and operate. 

Any way you go good luck to you and keep us updated! 

Chas


----------



## alecescolme (Dec 20, 2010)

Amber, 
Take a look at this page by Greg Hunter in Oz: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/2point4GHz.htm 
He used low cost 2.4ghz R/C gear. I agree with the other posts about 2.4ghz, very reliable. 

Alec


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Alec, the link is the kind of information I was looking for, thank you! I was wondering if that speed controller could be used to control a train engine. 
I realize that the RCS train controllers have a lot of nice features, but 150 bucks is just out of my price range. 50-60 bucks I can come up with. I don't have a problem with wiring the components, I used to fix VCRs for a living back when they were still worth fixing. 
I'm getting back into this hobby with equipment that I've had since the mid 1990s, back when I could afford to buy the stuff.


----------



## GaryR (Feb 6, 2010)

This is what I use. there is a way to use channels 5 and 6 be multiplexed to 5 more channels used one at a time. 

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXARNY&P=ML 


GaryR


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

The RCS PRO series are not $150. They PRO-3 which will do what you want and a whole lot more, is $89 plus postage. You can use virtually any 2.4 GHz R/C system which you have to buy for any ESC you choose. 

Be advised the Turnigy ESC listed will handle up to 12 volts MAX according to their specs.


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, I looked at all the links for the RCS electronics. If I was going to use one of them it would be the pro 3. That, and a radio and receiver would be at least 120 dollars, and that's for the cheap 2.4 gig radio, which I just can't afford. A brushed ESC of the type on the other link is less than 20 dollars on ebay. I don't mind if it only handles 12 volts, the old Bachmann engines run fast enough for me with an HO transformer, and I can use a drill battery to power the thing. 
As I said before, I won't have momentum or extra triggers, and reverse will be more complicated, but on my budget, I have to make compromises. Getting the thing to run on battery power is all I'm after at this point. I do appreciate all the information.


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm aware the title of this post includes "radio control", but you certainly don't need a radio to run trains quite nicely on battery power. It can be as simple as an on/off switch. I also have plenty of happy customers running Critter Controls (semi-automatic control without R/C). For $29, you can have full speed control and a 5 amp motor driver that will operate from 7 to 20V, enough power and voltage range to run most of the locos out there. No more sales pitches. Just want to make sure you are aware that there are low cost options.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

For that matter, a servo connected to the pot on Del's "critter control," then another one linked to a reverse switch would give you pretty basic R/C of speed and direction. You'd have to figure out the best way to link the servos to the controls, but probably the guys who do live steam R/C installs would be able to give you the best insights there since it's akin to hooking a servo to a throttle knob and johnson bar. 

I can vouch for Del's critter control in terms of how smoothly it controls the speed. So for $25 for the Hobby King Tx/Rx, $30 for the critter control, and whatever you can get servos for off of e-bay ($5 each?)... I'm not sure you get much cheaper than that, and the control will be better than any of the R/C car-type ESCs. 

Later, 

K


----------



## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

ANOTHER VOTE FOR 2.4GHZ DIGITAL 

Amber, the initially inexpensive transmitter and receiver may be o.k. for the battery powered loco so long as the shell is plastic. The principal problem here is that you may need a separate transmitter and receiver combo for each model. 

If you progress to more expensive metal models, the inexpensive combinations will suffer from "SERVO CHATTER" as the radio signals bounce around the metal cab and tender. Also, it seems to get worse as the distance between the transmitter and receiver increases. The result of the chatter is visible as the loco will jerk and possibly even go into reverse even though you want to go forward. Sometimes you can actually hear the servo chattering as a result of its receiving poor instructions from the receiver. 

The 2.4GHZ radio systems eliminate such chatter and they eliminate interference between radios. Further, one transmitter can easily handle as many as 6 6 to 10 receivers. At this point, you will need to provide for additional or stronger transmitter battery packs. I can get about 4 hours of run time from a 3200 ma pack with my Spectrum receiver. 

Finally, make sure your ESC [electronic speed control] has a high enough amperage rating to handle your locomotive, and as another has said, make sure the ESC that you purchase has a full reverse. 

Good luck, 

Will


----------



## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Amber, with an ESC, voltage is not the issue, it is current [amps]. I would go for 20 amps even though your current model may not draw that much current. If you decide to do a MU hookup, the one ESC will handle the current for one or more locomotive and if the ESC has too small an amperage rating, it will burn up.


Will


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By thumper on 15 Dec 2011 10:13 AM 
ANOTHER VOTE FOR 2.4GHZ DIGITAL 

... Further, one transmitter can easily handle as many as 6 6 to 10 receivers. At this point, you will need to provide for additional or stronger transmitter battery packs. ....

This "limitation" on the number of receivers only applies when running airplanes or live steam locos that need to store information about each receiver installation in the transmitter (servo throws and offsets differ for each installation). When using a G-Scale Graphics RailBoss control system, or a Genuine RCS control system, the calibration parameters needed for each receiver are stored in the ESC (the control board). Hence the number of receivers that one transmitter (a Spektrum DX5E for example) can be bound to is unlimited. If the transmitter is to be used with live steam, then you need to purchase a model (such as the Spektrum DX6i) that has "model memory".


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By thumper on 15 Dec 2011 10:24 AM 


Amber, with an ESC, voltage is not the issue, it is current [amps]. I would go for 20 amps even though your current model may not draw that much current. If you decide to do a MU hookup, the one ESC will handle the current for one or more locomotive and if the ESC has too small an amperage rating, it will burn up.


Will

20 amps! Maybe for a permanent consist of 3 or 4 diesels running from the same control. I don't even know where you would find a 20 amp ESC designed for large scale trains. I know of a couple that claim 10 amps.


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Good information! As for the ESC amperage rating, the airplane brushed ESCs start at 20 amp, as far as I've seen. They're limited to 12 volts or so, but that should be good enough for the old Bachmann Big Haulers, which is what I have. The car ESCs with reverse on them tend to cost more money, and they also tend to be lower battery voltage capable. As for the metal bodied engines, I'd have to win the lottery to be able to buy one of them, and then radio control cost wouldn't be an issue either.  
The Critter control unit with servos to control it sounds like a good idea, actually. I don't think it'd be hard to set up a servo to control the speed control. I hadn't thought of that, good idea! 
I suppose I could just build a PWM motor control and use a servo to control the speed pot, I have the schematics for several different ones that I got off the internet. Of course, a basic PWM control wouldn't be likely to work as well as the Critter Controller with momentum. 
I'm going to have to buy a radio no matter what I use for the engine, if I want radio control, the Hobby King radio looks like the best bargain out there right now, for a 2.4 gig radio. The reviews that I've read seem to be favorable, so it will do for now. I guess I'll have to do some experimenting with control methods. I have the temporary use of a friend's older Futaba FM radio and receiver, so I can get the speed controller first.


----------



## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

What hasn't been mentioned is that the electric motors themselves can be and are often a source of "noise" between the Transmitter and Reciever in a typical AM/FM freq system. this is why MANY of the electric motors have all the extra capacitors solders across and with the leads to them to help eliminate the RF that they tend to broadcast. OF course that was a huge issue in RC cars where heavy loads and quick changes in speed and direction were common. In RC planes adn heli's the loads tend to be more constant (I believe?) also there is no requirement for reverse in those ESC's usually. Also what I meant by reverse should read "proportional" reverse like the forward. of course my RC car terminology and background is over 10 years old and some improvements and changes have no doubt been made. Brushless motors were just becoming the rage when I sold it all. $1k for a motor and ESC then? That was a little too rich for me. 

Chas


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Another thing that I've read about brushed motors and PWM control, if the PWM frequency is too low, it can make the motor whine like a transformer. I also remember reading a long time ago about how the then new pulse throttles could cause an open frame motor to heat up at slow speed. I never had any experience with them though.


----------



## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber,
Here are a couple of 2.4 radios that work very well. I've used them in trains, planes and sailboats. The vendor is also very good.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/fsaircontrol.html the CT6B for $27.30


http://www.hobbypartz.com/exrcrasy.html any of the Exceed radios

Tony and Del's stuff work very well, they are all I use with Tenergy 14.4 LiIon packs.
Remember to charge safely. 


Dave


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I stumbled onto hobbypartz while doing a google search. They do have some good deals, and they also have free shipping on orders over $50 right now which makes it a better deal. Of course, right now, they're out of stock on the brushed ESCs, and I don't know how long they're going to have that radio on sale. If I bought the CT6B and 3 extra receivers, that would qualify for free shipping, but I don't need 4 receivers right now. But then again, maybe I will at some point.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hobby King, who also sell the same ESC's, are also out of stock. 
Given that pretty well all motors used in R/C models nowadays are brushless, the mass market for brushed ESC's is basically non existent. It could be that low cost brushed ESC's will be harder to source in the future.


----------



## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

Amber, 
Dig around on the Hobbypartz site to see if there are some other things you might need to get up to the free shipping amount. There is a tool and an accessory section. I can't remember what the shipping rate is but I don't think its all that expensive if you're in the US. Or order two radio systems so you and a friend can both run separate locos on your layout. 
Hobby King is a huge site with tons of stuff at great prices. They've really changed the face of the hobby with the breadth and pricing of their stock. The only down side to them is the shipping from China is a bit pricey and slow. The shipping becomes cost effective if you put in a fairly sizable order. Also never put an out of stock item on your order. They'll hold up the whole order waiting for the one out of stock items. 
Again hope this helps, 
Dave


----------



## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

Posted By alecescolme on 14 Dec 2011 11:54 AM 
Amber, 
Take a look at this page by Greg Hunter in Oz: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/2point4GHz.htm 
He used low cost 2.4ghz R/C gear. I agree with the other posts about 2.4ghz, very reliable. 

Alec 
I use the same gear as Greg Hunter and have had many hours of enjoyment running my trains with it as has my neighbour who also uses it along with his Aristo revolution controller (he has 6 locos 1 fitted with the Revolution the rest with hobbyking).

Being realistic there would be no way that I could afford to run my trains if I had to use the Spektrum gear as it is way out of my price range.


----------



## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

I was looking at the stuff on the Hobbypartz website and realized that I also need a couple of servos to flip the fwd/rev switch on the 2 engines that I want to power right now, so I can get the order up over 50 dollars that way. It's tempting to try to use a servo to turn a speed control on a home made esc, but I really don't know how I would do that, perhaps gears?


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

but I really don't know how I would do that, perhaps gears? 
Easiest would be Delrin chain and sprockets. Ask on the Live Steam forum for sources. It's been a good number of years (10 or more) since I bought mine, and haven't a clue where I got it. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Amber, 

What ar you looking for in a brushed ESC. I have several new and used floating around, perhaps I could help. 

Servo City has the sprockets and chain with adapters for servos. 

Michael


----------

