# LiFePo4 - Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries



## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

http://backyardtrain.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/battery-packs/ Did anyone happen to see this in the latest GR magazine and have any comments or experiences? 
http://backyardtrain.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/battery-packs/ 





Other than the Energy Density stated in the article, it appears to be a pretty good match against “traditional” Li-ion. I do suspect, that at least for my needs, I’ll probably have to build my own packs.





Thanks for any information you can provide.





Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just researching myself... while the comparison chart shows what a good deal they are, turns out that the prices on that site are pretty comparable between li-ion and the li-ph... 

safer though... 

Wonder what "UN Approved" means.... oh approved for air transport... 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark

It’s been a couple of years or so since I played with LiFePo4 batteries. My initial experience of said batteries was not that good… I lost one battery and then a second a month later open circuit after some initial load testing. These were not low-end offerings either. My intended use was for my new Hitec Aurora RC aircraft transmitters. A battery failure herein would have been catastrophic. The batteries were replaced, cycled/tested again and stored for later use; guess what another open circuit battery a few months later. The batteries never made it to my transmitters! At this juncture I decided to take look at this technology at a later date. 

Keep in mind LiFePo4 requires yet again a special charge regimen, some of the current truly “Smart Chargers” can charge LiFePo4 and the other technologies too.

LiFePo4 battery technology offers several desirable attributes, the two that peak my interest most are higher resilience to temperature upwards of 400*F and the life cycle is nearly four times greater than Li-Ion. That said lithium batteries life and or cycle count is generally not realized before the cells time out (generally around three years, BUT I have some that are still working five years later, unfortunately better than a hundred of my 18650 Li-Ion cells were not that fortunate). Seems I read somewhere that LiFePo4 technology has a component or coating that mitigates the typical life expectancy of Lithium batteries, that would be great IMO!

Michael


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Michael:


Thanks for the taking the time to share your experiences. While trains don't usually have the same battery failure issues as aircraft, I would definitely take pause regarding the reliability you experienced. I'm hoping for a more "set it and forget" battery solution so that may be something to investigate.


I was sort of hoping that Del Tappro, Tony Walsham or Rick Isard would weigh in as I assumed that one or more of them has had some experience with this particular chemistry.


Thanks again for your time.

Mark


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark

Not trying to blow my horn, BUT I have been working with and evaluating Lithium batteries since 1998 specifically for model aircraft flight control systems and later for electric powered model aircraft (back then we started with Lithium-metal 800mAh ‘Taridin’ rechargeable cells). Before that I had years of experience with NiCad’s and later NiMH for RC model cars, trucks and boats. That said I have tested and evaluated hundreds of batteries, thousands of cells and many-many chargers… It’s been a few years since I have been in the thick of said efforts but still retain relationships with the RC battery industry and RC radio OEM manufacturers.

As far as set and forget battery technology we’ve already been there and done that. In fact we surpassed that for “green technologies” and weight density. By far without doubt IMO NiCd was/is the most robust battery technology in play for model trains. 

I am acutely aware of the diminutive needs for our trains as compared to RC models, there is as you likely realize a HUGE difference in reliability, demand/loads and weight requirements. But we as model train enthusiasts can garner information and benefit from the MONSTER[/b] that the RC battery industry is!

This AM I had a discussion with an OEM battery supplier specifically of LiFePo4 cells, their sending me multiple batteries and loose cells to play with. I’ll run the lot through my evaluation regimen which includes cycling the batteries through a PC docked charger and electronic load, this allows me to garner data and review the performance of fresh (new) batteries under test and later after my cycle regimen has used and abused the batteries. FWIW I simulate varying loads and states of charge in an effort to emulate real world model use. Given a month or so I’ll report back what I find. 

As noted previously by you and Greg the benefits of LiFePo4 technology is of interest to me too, not to mention the cost is now in-line with other Lithium technologies. 

I can’t speak for Del, Rick or Tony but suspect they don’t embrace these new technologies as quickly as the RC model industry does for various reasons.

Michael


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Michael:


Please pardon me if you felt that I was somehow minimizing your experience, that was not my intent. It just seems to me that since there is much "passion" regarding the whole RC/Battery issue on this and other forums that there would have been others contributing to this thread. I'm guessing that is not the case and I will have to depend on a smaller number of experiences and opinions than expected.


Again my apologies.


Mark


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark

No apology required. I did not think or intend to suggest that you were minimizing my experience, just wanted you to know that I actually had a little, it’s all good!

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As I believe the basic questions have been answered here, I'll throw a side question to Michael: 

Have you found any good "autoranging" chargers that are worth a hoot? I'm jealously guarding my Maha 777+ because of how handy it is, and also having the "recording" discharge function. 

I want to buy something as smart and versatile before it gives up. 

Also, do you know what the "end of charge" "signal" characteristics are for li-metal? same as lithiums? 

Greg


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Mar 2013 01:43 PM 
As I believe the basic questions have been answered here, I'll throw a side question to Michael: 

Have you found any good "autoranging" chargers that are worth a hoot? I'm jealously guarding my Maha 777+ because of how handy it is, and also having the "recording" discharge function. 

I want to buy something as smart and versatile before it gives up. 

Also, do you know what the "end of charge" "signal" characteristics are for li-metal? same as lithiums? 

Greg A couple of years ago, I thought my Maha 777plus had given up the ghost. So I bought a Tynergy B6S from Jonathan at the 2011 SWGRS. A couple of weeks ago, Paul Burch emailed that he thought one of his chargers had gone "goofy" and asked if I still had my Maha. I said yes and sent it up to him. He said it was working fine. Just me not knowing what the **** I was doing!







I always liked that Maha.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Greg:



I would really appreciate you starting your own thread as your "side" question is really not germane to LiFePo4 batteries and their performance and suitability.



Mark


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mark. 
I still use mainly NiCd batteries as they have over the years proven to be (to me at least) the best value for money of all the chemistries available. 
Sure they had a reputation for developing a (so called) memory that would not allow them to be fully charged, but that only occured in certain specific situations and could be easily broken. 
I know of packs that are many years old (as in 12 + years) and still giving reliable service. 

I always thought that NiMh would have a shortened life span when compared to NiCD. Just this past week I had an LGB White Pass diesel loco back for an RX replacement. I did the installation 8 years ago and the 14,4 volt 4/5ths A NiMh battery pack was working just fine. The owner related to me that during these past 8 years they have never self discharged and would routinely give 2-3 hours run time from the 2,150 mah capacity depending on what the operating characteristics were. They have only ever been charged with a very simple 10% rate trickle charger. 
I have very little experience with Li-Ion and no experience with Li-Po or LiFe cells, and do not intend to any time soon.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Tony: 

Thanks for taking the time to add your experiences and perspective. 

Mark


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Mark - I'm no expert on battery technology, but I have been using Lithium-Ion (not LiFePo4) for quite a few years now with no problems, and I have yet to replace one. I don't have any experience with the LiFePo4 being discussed here. Perhaps the only down side to Lithium batteries is the protection circuit board, which will shut down the pack, and stop your train dead in its tracks, when it detects discharge voltage. To address that problem, my RailBoss Plus controls have a built-in Low Battery Warning function, which can be adjusted to warn you X minutes BEFORE that shutdown occurs and allows you to get the train home while you still have control of it. Much better than dragging it out of the tunnel or off the mountain.

(Note: I would have responded sooner, but MLS will no longer let me "subscribe" to a thread and give notification of activity. Yes, it's a complaint!)


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with the cells, the construction is very poor between the cells and protecting the PCB after he has added the shrink wrap. The reason this lithium battery caught on fire is because he has either wired the PCB in reverse order starting from B-, charged the pack with a non lithium-LiFe charger and the pack is finally getting hot after 10 minutes from the start of construction or he has overlapped a weld tab touching the exterior of a cell. 

This is how homes burn down! 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By izzy0855 on 22 Mar 2013 08:08 PM 
There is nothing wrong with the cells, the construction is very poor between the cells and protecting the PCB after he has added the shrink wrap. The reason this lithium battery caught on fire is because he has either wired the PCB in reverse order starting from B-, charged the pack with a non lithium-LiFe charger and the pack is finally getting hot after 10 minutes from the start of construction or he has overlapped a weld tab touching the exterior of a cell. 

This is how homes burn down! 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America 



Rick

What are you talking about, whose lithium battery caught fire?????


Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah?


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

My mistake, I was looking at the wrong video link from another story overseas. But my comments about his construction of the pack could result in the pack causing a fire. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You have my interest up, can you post the video link you were watching? 

Thanks, Greg


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