# What Battery RC system do you recomend?



## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I am wanting to convert my locos to a Battery RC system and am thinking of purchasing the Airwire 900 system. Does anyone else on this board use this system? If yes, Are you happy with it? Is there any compelling reason to purchase another Battery RC system or are they all about the same?

Thanks in Advance? 


Dave S


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, there are many very good systems on the market today. You might jump over to the Power forums and start reading. 

There's a great deal of information there and some of your questions may already have been answered.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To answer your specific question: Yes many people use this system. It has a lot of capability, since it can use any standard DCC sound system attached to the receiver. 

In addition, another manufacturer makes a compatible controller, that is, in my opinion, much easier to use with nice on screen menus. This is the NCE "Gardenwire" throttle. 

Another manufacturer also makes a compatible all in one motor controller/sound card, this is by QSI. 

So, you have some extra options that are not common in a normally proprietary system. This system is pretty much the "Mercedes" of wireless control, having the most flexibility, options, and control. 


Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Dave. 

There are all sorts of questions you should ask yourself about what it is you are looking for in an R/C system. 
Not the least of which is cost. 
Perhaps you already have, but if not here are some for you to ponder. 
1. Is the installation to be on board the loco or in a trail car. 
2. If on board, is the system going into a loco that can accept Plug'n'Play components? 
3. Should there be constant brightness directional lights available? 
4. Apart from speed and direction and an emergency stop function, what other control functions do you envisage using? 
5. Do you want a pushbutton momentum type of control, or would proper Digital Proportional control be more appealing? 
6. Are you likely to want MU capabilities with easy loco drop off and addition to a consist? 
7. Will you be wanting to fit sound? If so, did you have any particular sound system in mind? 

I have a vested interest here. I make the RCS - BELTROL on board R/C control systems.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

For low cost and built-in automation functions you won't find anywhere else, you might check out the "Enhanced RailBoss" by G-Scale Graphics. (That would be me).


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I am wanting to convert my locos to a Battery RC system and am thinking of purchasing the Airwire 900 system. Does anyone else on this board use this system? If yes, Are you happy with it? Is there any compelling reason to purchase another Battery RC system or are they all about the same? 
That all depends on how you want to define "same." In terms of core functions, yes the systems from the major players are the same. They all allow you to control multiple locomotives from one transmitter, change speed, direction, bells, whistles, and lights. That's probably sufficient for most users, so yes--if that's all you want to do, they are all about the same. 

Where they differ is "how" they do that, and extra functionality. In those regards, they are all very different. Functionality is something of a quantifiable variable. Different systems allow you to have control over myriad functions. You'll have to determine which and how many functions you'd like to have control over and go from there. Some systems control certain functions better than others. If you don't need a gazillion functions, then any of the systems will work great for you. If you want ultimate control over many functions, then you're limited to the upper echelons. The "downside" of the uber-functional systems is that they're inherently more complex to program. It's a trade-off. If you want the customizable features, you've got to be willing to do some bookwork to learn how to get the most out of the customization. The simpler systems are easier to program, but don't have quite the level of customization. If you're never going to use it, though, you'll never miss it. As I said earlier--all of these systems are more than adequate for the majority of users. 

One other important aspect of "how" they do what they do is the user interface. Some use knobs, some use levers, some use pushbuttons (or mixtures of the three). This is purely subjective. I can rattle off features I find beneficial, but it's not going to be the same as anyone else. I will say this--don't be afraid to spend a few extra dollars for a system that better suits you physically. If the control system isn't fun for you to use, you're not going to enjoy running your trains. For that, I'd recommend seeking out the local club or others in your area who may be using some of these systems so you can physically get your hands on them and try them out. Maybe that's not possible and you'll have to rely on personal testimony, but firsthand experience is always better if you can get it. 

To answer your specific question about the Airwire stuff, I've used it on my dad's railroad. He uses the Airwire/Phoenix sound combination. He seems pleased as punch with it, and I've found it fairly intuitive to operate when I go out for a visit. I do wish it had a stop button on the controller. The older-style controller has a knob that has a definite off point. The newer style's knob just keeps turning and turning, so you're never quite sure you're stopped. I haven't programmed it, so I can't speak to that. (The Phoenix P5 and P8 boards work well with it and give you the DCC protocol sounds there.) He's using the older generation throttle, not their latest G-2 board which I hear is even better than the first one. I'll echo Greg's suggestion that if you go with the Airwire thottle, use the NCE "Gardenwire" controller with it instead of the Airwire controllers. (It has a "stop" button, among other nice features.) I'd love to try the NCE controller, G-2 throttle, and Phoenix sound combination. I like the QSI stuff just fine, but I like Phoenix's sound library better at this point. I use the NCE/QSI combination as well as the Aristo-Craft "Revolution" with either Phoenix or Sierra sound. I wouldn't call any single system head-and-shoulders better than any other. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, which you can tailor to suit your particular style of operating and physical needs of the installation. My "ideal" system would take attributes from many of them. 

Later, 

K


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

LIke Greg E. says above, For me anyway cost, ease of use, simplicity of installation and above all COST, in the long run QSI/G-wire, and Procab throttle!! You can set yourself up with two battery, QSI/G-wire boxcars one steam, and one diesel, and buy the programmer and program in what you want to run the next day! Easey Peasey! That's my opinion and from experience of 2+ years, and I'm stickin to it!! No need to put a decoder in each engine!! Regal


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Dave, 

I was in your boat about a year or so ago and did A LOT of looking into this very same thing. For my railroad, I wanted to simply control speed, direction, whistle and bell. I wanted everything on-board and didn't want a trailing car. I came to the conclusion that there were 2 options for me to choose from, either RCS or Airwire. I had various reasons for wanting both, and was leaning toward the RCS, but ended up with Airwire (for reasons I won't go in to). For sound I am going with Phoenix. It is more expensive, but sounds the best. 

I would recommend you do the same thing I did, find someone who has R/C control and ask them to operate it, this will give you a lot of insight on what you will like and dislike. Before I decided, I operated RCS, Beltrol, Airwire and the Aristocraft Train Engineer and Revolution. Another thing to consider is customer support. This is not something that you will just plug in and go (unless you're lucky). My Bachmann Shay requires serious surgery to remove the old Bachmann boards and install the R/C. Guys like Tony at RCS, and the guys at Airwire are very helpful. Take your time, do the research and get some HANDS ON experience before you dive in and end up with something you don't want. 

One thing about the new Airwire throttle, the knob does continually rotate, which I am not a huge fan of either. But it does have STOP feature, not a button like the Pro-Cab does, but a function button that you press. It would be much more helpful when your train is out of control to be able to find a red STOP button. 

That's my 2 cents. Have fun and ask questions often. 

Chris


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Also check out the battery/RC thread. Later RJD


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I want to thank everyone for all of the replies, to answer most of the questions above, I just want to control speed, direction, whistle and bells at this time, the 3 locos I want to modify to RC control are the 36 Ton Bachmann Shay (with Phoenix Big Sound 97 Board), 25 Ton Bachmann Climax and the Bachman 2-6-0 Mogul. I did get a nice demonstration of the Airwire 900 by one of the guys (sorry I don't remember your name) that was running trains on the Door Hollow Shortline Railroad last week at the SWGR show @ the Fairplex, I also noticed a quite a few other folks using what looked like the Airwire 900 controller at the Fairplex Railroad.

I guess now I need to look into the NCE Gardenwire controller and QSI stuf as I was not aware of them and will also spend more time reading posts in the RC\Battery forum.


Am i correct in stating that all of the 2.4ghz systems offered at this time only utilize RC Airplane type controllers?


Thanks

Dave S


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The "Revolution" runs on 2.4 gHz, but it is its own system. The Beltrol and RailBoss systems use the R/C Airplane type controllers. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I know you say "all you want", but with a quality sound system, you will find a ton of fun things to do, for yourself and any kids that run trains. 

Being able to control a lot of different sounds is fun... I had no sound in my locos for years, and when I finally took the plunge, it really added another dimension to the enjoyment. 

Since the quality systems all have many controllable sounds already, seems a shame not to use them. 

(not saying all sound systems that only have bell and whistle are not quality, just haven't found the right term yet.) 

Right now running an RS-3, and it has doppler shift of the horn, air operated louvers that precede the radiator fans coming on, pumps, controllable brake squeal, air release, coupler clank and air hose noises, and on and on. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

There are only two types of 2.4 Ghz R/C systems. 

1. The REVOLUTION. This has their own proprietary handpiece and does not work with any other R/C system. 

2. RCS - BELTROL and G Scale Graphics Enhanced Rail Boss. These both use low cost commonly available (as in at least 6 brands are useable) 4/5/6 channel stick radios.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

You tryin' ta start sumpin?









Chevy, Ford or Toyota?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but don't "lock on" to 2.4 GHz, which is a very crowded band now. Yes, there are techniques for avoiding interference and they work, but that is because the 2.4 GHz band is CROWDED. 

You have cordless phones, model planes, trains, automobiles, your bluetooth headset, bluetooth computer accessoires, and your computer wifi and your neighbors, not to mention the interference from your microwave oven. 

I run a system that uses 900 MHz and have ZERO interference issues, because everyone figured going to the latest frequency band was always the best idea. Great for me, ha ha! 

Likewise some of the 300-400 MHz bands are virtually vacant, and Tony manufactures equipment that works on that band. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jun 2010 03:37 PM 
Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but don't "lock on" to 2.4 GHz, which is a very crowded band now. Yes, there are techniques for avoiding interference and they work, but that is because the 2.4 GHz band is CROWDED. 

You have cordless phones, model planes, trains, automobiles, your bluetooth headset, bluetooth computer accessoires, and your computer wifi and your neighbors, not to mention the interference from your microwave oven. 

I run a system that uses 900 MHz and have ZERO interference issues, because everyone figured going to the latest frequency band was always the best idea. Great for me, ha ha! 

Likewise some of the 300-400 MHz bands are virtually vacant, and Tony manufactures equipment that works on that band. 

Regards, Greg 


Whilst Greg is correct when saying the 2.4 Ghz band is in theory crowded, to date I have had absolutely no (AS IN ZERO) problems operating in that band. Unlike some 900 MHz equipment, where there is an in built limit on the actual number of systems that can work side by side at the same time. Just ask AirWire users what it is like at big train shows.

2.4 Ghz is, I believe, the only higher frequency band that is legal to use Worldwide. The 5/6 channel 2.4 GHz stick radios are also the the lowest in cost to the consumer.

I do not, and never did, make any equipment that uses the 300 - 400 MHz band.
I did have ELSEMA make 27 MHz equipment for me. That is now taken over by Dave Goodson. I can still supply the 27 MHz equipment for the Australian market.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I just wanted to be sure I was not overlooking any RC units on the 2.4 GHz systems and I am not too fond of the Airplane controllers. I am looking into the Airwire \ QSI systems at the moment, I like to read the documentation to figure out how it all works before I purchase a unit. What I liked about the Airwire system is it appeared that All I needed to buy was the Remote and the G2 Decoder and a battery, with the QSI system, I need to figure out what components I will need for each loco.


Greg, in your first post above, when you say "This system is pretty much the "Mercedes" of wireless control, having the most flexibility, options, and control", you are referring to the QSI system, correct?


Thanks


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are installing in an Aristo engine, all you need is your battery setups, I use nicad and nimh usually the 2300 mah 2 in series 7.2 ea for 14.4 total and I have a set of nimh that are 8.4 and 3800 mah wired in series. Either works well, get from All Battery and places like that!!and the pnp decoder, a g-wire, and a throttle, either the t-9000 or the procab which Greg and I both recommend for ease of use, and also price is around $30 less!! If you are installing in an engine other than Aristo you will need the above, and the extra $18 adapter board to plug in the pnp decoder the pnp and the quantum are the same decoder, its just in non aristo you have to buy an adapter board to plug the QSI decoder into!! If you do your installation into a battery/power/QSI/G-wire/adapter board boxcar with a sliding door, you only need a couple setups one for steam, and one for diesel, you could also buy the programmer and then program in the night before you run any sound you want!! I have done all of these setups, and now I have 2 batter for power only boxcars and after tomorrow will have a boxcar set up for diesel. You could put the setup in each engine I did on my first 6 installs now I just use the boxcar setup for my diesels and mu together. I have a complete setup installed in my USA Pa/Pb U.P. pass set. You can see all this on my you tube page and or live site. Hear and see. Regal 


Crazy Train Guy's Garden Railroad Channel - live streaming video powered by Livestream


YouTube - 7485jerry's Channel


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jun 2010 03:37 PM 
Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but don't "lock on" to 2.4 GHz, which is a very crowded band now. Yes, there are techniques for avoiding interference and they work, but that is because the 2.4 GHz band is CROWDED. 

You have cordless phones, model planes, trains, automobiles, your bluetooth headset, bluetooth computer accessoires, and your computer wifi and your neighbors, not to mention the interference from your microwave oven. 

I run a system that uses 900 MHz and have ZERO interference issues, because everyone figured going to the latest frequency band was always the best idea. Great for me, ha ha! 

Likewise some of the 300-400 MHz bands are virtually vacant, and Tony manufactures equipment that works on that band. 

Regards, Greg 


I have yet to have a problem with 2.4GHZ spread spectrum technolgy, or even the frequency hopping variety. I have some things built into my software that let tells me if I lose the link between the TX and RX. It occasionally goes off to tell me I lost the link. But the best I can tell, it relinks within seconds, and I have never been unable to execute the desired command (Well, that's not true, as about half the time I forget to turn on the Tx







). Yes, it is probably crowded, but you'd never know it. And yes 900MHZ works OK, but you are locked into one fixed frequency (while running). That increases the odds of interference by orders of magnitude over the spread spectrum scheme, which is constantly changing frequencies.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

So the more I read the more confused I get, so I am going to ask the following questions to see if I am understanding these systems at all:



1. Can I use the QSI NCE Gwire ProCab throttle to directly control an Airwire G2 Decoder? (or do I also need to purchase the Quantum GWire Reciver?)

2. If I wanted to get an all QSI System, I would have to purchase the NCE Gwire ProCab throttle, Quantum Magnum Sound and Power System AND the Quantum GWire Receiver? (why isint the receiver built into the Quantum Magnum Sound and Power System?) 

Ultimately if the answers to the above are yes, I would end up purchasing the QSI NCE Gwire ProCab throttle, the Airwire G2 Decoder (for my Bachmann Shay and Phoenix Sound Card), The Quantum Magnum and GWire Reciver (for my Bachmann Climax) 


Thanks for putting up with all my questions


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

When you start to delve deeper into this the costs can start to mount up.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know much--if anything--about the technology behind broadcasting the signals from point A to point B. Personally, I don't care. I push a button, the train goes faster. I push another button, the train goes slower. I stand in the front of my house, I can push a third button and hear the whistle blow in the back of the house. That's been 100% true for systems in both spectrums in my experience. Maybe--theoretically--there's potential for loss of signal, but I seriously doubt the user will ever notice it. I really don't know why the frequency is even part of the debate. No one cares so long as the train can be controlled, which is the case pretty much across the board of the products we're discussing. 

Dave, to answer your question to Greg, yes--he's referring to the QSI system, when used with the NCE "Gardenwire" controller. It is a very good, very full-featured system. I reviewed it in _Garden Railways_ an issue or two back. The biggest advantage of this system is that the QSI Magnum decoder is both a sound and throttle combined. That allows the two systems to feed back to each other, so you get some neat effects to the sound based on the load of the motor and some other factors (rate of acceleration/deceleration, etc.) If it's the "Mercedes" system, it's a Mercedes with a manual transmission. It's pretty cool, but ya gotta know how to drive it if you're ever going to do anything fun with it. It's got a very high (arguably the highest) degree of customization and control of the systems on the market. That degree of customization comes with compromise, though. To tailor those high-end functions to your specific locomotive, you've got to indoctrinate yourself in the world of DCC programming. Yes, as Greg mentions, you can plug the system in and be off and running in 15 minutes. But if your headlights don't match the direction of travel, your chuff triggers 8 times faster than your drivers are turning, your motor spits and sputters at very low speed--any number of things--you've got some readin' to do. Difficult? Not once you wrap your head around it, and there are many people on this forum who can help you out, but it's not exactly intuitive on first or even second glance. If you've ever used an HP calculator, it's like that. Once you "speak the language," you can do some very cool things. _Let me reiterate that I'm not criticizing the system_--I use it myself and am very pleased with it. But it took me probably a year or so of programming the board and reading--and re-reading the manual before I felt remotely comfortable with what--precisely--I'm adjusting on some of the parameters. Some still don't make a lick of sense to me. The other systems don't have as high a level of control, but their relative simplicity allows them to be a bit more "plain English" to program. 

With the Airwire/G-2 setup, you'll need a 3rd party sound system to have a comparable set-up. Many folks use Phoenix, as it's the gold standard sound system. I've not used the G-2 board, nor programmed the Phoenix under DCC control, so I don't know how that compares to programming the QSI board. (I would heartily recommend getting the PC-based programming software for either the QSI or Phoenix boards, depending on which route you go. The QSI programming software gives you a graphic interface to program the various parameters, and is much more user friendly than having to remember or look up which CVs control what. 

Later, 

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1. Can I use the QSI NCE Gwire ProCab throttle to directly control an Airwire G2 Decoder? (or do I also need to purchase the Quantum GWire Reciver?) 
From everything I've read, yes you can control the G-2 decoder with the NCE controller. You do not need an additional G-wire receiver. (Airwire makes the G-wire receiver to use with the QSI board.) 

2. If I wanted to get an all QSI System, I would have to purchase the NCE Gwire ProCab throttle, Quantum Magnum Sound and Power System AND the Quantum GWire Receiver? (why isint the receiver built into the Quantum Magnum Sound and Power System?) 
You'd have to buy the G-wire receiver, yes. The QSI board is designed primarily as a track-powered DCC decoder, which gets its signals through any standard DCC through-the-track control system. The G-wire receiver essentially takes the control signal off the rails, sending it through the air instead. That's why it's a plug-in option. The G-2 board is designed specifically to be wireless, so it combines the receiver and throttle onto one board. You've got to then add the sound system. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually frequency does make a difference as to how well some control systems work. 
In simple terms, the higher the frequency the less interference, both Radio Frequency and motor "noise", affect the controllable distance that can be achieved. 
The frequency most prone to interference is 27 MHz. This can be overcome by judicious use of motor "noise" suppression and experimentation to find the ideal placement of the antenna. Proper suppression of motor"noise" is essential. Usually with RF chokes and small capacitors. 
In essence 75 MHz is just as prone to Loss of range from interference as 27 MHz is. In percentage terms the jump up the scale is minuscule compared to say progression from 900 MHz to 2.4 Ghz. 
The main problem with Digital Proportional Control stick radios on low frequencies is what is called "Glitching". This results in the possible sudden jerking backwards and forwards of the loco which can be disastrous for gears. That is completely overcome with 2.4 GHz equipment. 
The same sort of "glitching" actually occurs with low frequency pushbutton systems, but, it is masked by the momentum speed control. What can happen is that at longer range the sound systems can give an erratic Woop Woop Woop from a whistle function when the button is being pressed continuously. 
At extreme range total loss of control will be experienced. 
As the frequency rises, a number of things happen. The radio signal is less susceptible to atmospheric interference, the required length of the antenna can be considerably reduced and motor "noise" has less effect. 
Once you get up into the 200 MHz band this becomes quite pronounced. Even more so when progressing to the 400 MHz and then 900 MHz band. 
Once you get up to 2.4 Ghz the antenna is reduced to a bit over 1". With some 2.4 GHz systems the signal can actually be reliably received inside metal locos. Exactly why that is possible may depend on certain laws of physics which I am not qualified to explain. An added bonus is the need for motor "noise" suppression is eliminated completely. 

It is easy to see why AristoCraft chose to go with 2.4 GHz with the REVOLUTION. 
An added bonus for them is 2.4 Ghz is legal Worldwide whilst 900 MHz is not. In many countries 900 MHz is still used for cell phones.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mercedes with a manual transmission? 

Dead backwards, since the QSI senses load and adjusts the sounds accordingly, it is transparent to you, you don't need to do anything else. 

On other sound systems, you must SIMULATE the load yourself, manually, by commanding the sound unit to make more or less "aggressive sounds" 

While on this unfair representation, why buy 2 pieces of hardware (motor and sound) that take up more space and have to wire them together when you can buy one board that does it all? 

Oh, and the "auto chuff" on any other sound board does not need adjusting? And the headlights are only wrong on the K-27 IF you don't download the right file which is available right off the site, and there is an app note telling you about this. 

Sorry it took Kevin a year, it took my friend RJ much less time than that... this is the old myth that because there are so many things you CAN customize, that you MUST understand them ALL... WRONG!, you understand only the things of interest to you. 

With a good throttle, there are menus that hold your hand pretty darn well, set the chuff rate once, maybe tweak the volume, that's about ALL 90% of the users do. 

Hmmm.... 

Greg


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
I will poorly atempt to explain what I think Kevin is saying? Bad analogy by the way Kevin. 

A little over a year ago I bought a used loco with an Airwire reciever. I purchased a new an Airwire Transmitter (900W or something?) and as I tried to get my new (to me loco running) it simply did not. I tried the several things that manual said and the few things the former owner said, but quickly got frustrated. Since I do not currenly have a railroad to run on and only ever temporarily set up track for now it's not a huge deal. the former owner told me to call him when I was ready to figure it out as it would be easier for him to explain on the phone. Easy enough for him but not me. I rarely have time in front of the trains with a phone in my hand to figure this out. So it sits on a shelf in the office in the basement. Quite simply it is not intuitive in functions for someone whose former R/C experience was running Futaba radios to run R/C cars on a track with 6 t5 to 7 other cars at high speed (into a wall usually). I will tackle it eventually and figure it out I simply ahve not taken the time to do so. I'm also not too worried about it. Bottom line there is a learning curve. How steep it is depends on your "other" experiences with DCC and or programmable "devices" and your capability & patience with them. YES Jerry (Blueregal) I WILL call you soon! I WOULD like to get it running this summer! 

Chas


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Dead backwards, since the QSI senses load and adjusts the sounds accordingly, it is transparent to you, you don't need to do anything else. 

On other sound systems, you must SIMULATE the load yourself, manually, by commanding the sound unit to make more or less "aggressive sounds" 
Greg, you're again reading too much into what I write. I talk specifically about the QSI's integration of the sound/throttle as being a decided benefit of the system. It's a great feature, and I love to set the momentum to its maximum, then coast slowly into the station with nary a chuff to be heard. My "manual transmission" analogy was in reference to getting the most from all the customization the system offers. You can drive the Mercedes off the lot never taking it out of 1st gear, and enjoy all the amenities the car has to offer. The fun of driving it comes when you figure out how to work the clutch and get it up to 5th or 6th gear. Similarly, you can run the QSI with the factory defaults all day long and be pretty happy. But it's capable of a whole different experience once you learn how to customize the features. Using factory defaults, the system is not all that different from what the others offer.

While on this unfair representation, why buy 2 pieces of hardware (motor and sound) that take up more space and have to wire them together when you can buy one board that does it all? 
You still need two boards, Greg. The G-2/Phoenix combines receiver/throttle on one board with a separate sound system, while the QSI outboards the receiver while combining the sound/throttle. Yeah, it's easier to connect the 5-pin ribbon wire between the G-wire and the QSI than it is to use the screw terminals, solder pads, and plugs involved in connecting the other systems, but let's be realistic. In many cases, we're opening up the locomotive, completely--or nearly so--gutting the on-board electronics, and installing new. Somehow I don't think having to connect a few wires between components is going to be a big deal. Maybe for the plug-and-play locomotives, but they're still a minority at this point. 

Oh, and the "auto chuff" on any other sound board does not need adjusting? And the headlights are only wrong on the K-27 IF you don't download the right file which is available right off the site, and there is an app note telling you about this. 
I'm not implying other systems don't need similar adjustments--just that those adjustments do need to be made, and will take longer than the 15 minutes needed to be up and running on default settings. The headlight reference wasn't specific to the K, though it is is an issue for that locomotive. Any locomotive has the potential of running opposite the headlights if the motor's wired the "wrong" way. You can either go back in and re-wire the motor, or program the decoder to suit. It's simply not guaranteed to be right on default settings, and the user must refer to "the book" to reprogram that. Motor stuttering at slow speeds? Again--back to the book to try to figure out what's going on and how to correct it. Depending on the locomotive, all these things are necessary adjustments beyond the factory defaults that must be addressed to get things tuned correctly. I'm not saying other systems don't need similar adjustments, but other systems--due to their much simpler functionality--are simpler to tweak. 

As an example of this, let's look specifically at the headlights. Most systems offer directional headlights. The front is on when moving forward, the back is on when moving in reverse. When stopped, typically the headlights are off, or maybe the front one is on, and only goes off when in reverse. What it does is all you get. You can't reprogram it to do something different, save for possibly changing the lights relative to the direction of travel. The QSI recognizes four distinct states for the headlight, and allows you to choose between three different brightnesses for each of the four states. It's far, far more flexible than the non-DCC systems, but in order to customize it for what--specifically--you want the lights to do, you've got to learn a bit of binary to figure out the proper value for the appropriate CV. It's not that it's particularly difficult, but it does require some time to sit down, read, and come to grips with what's going on. That's the point I'm making through all this--the higher functionality of the QSI system requires a bit of homework that the other, not quite as flexible systems don't. 

this is the old myth that because there are so many things you CAN customize, that you MUST understand them ALL... WRONG!, you understand only the things of interest to you. 
I fully agree with you. There's no need to learn everything. I use maybe 10% of the functionality the QSI system has to offer. I don't worry about coupling/uncoupling sound effects, doppler shift, or many of the other cool things you _can_ do with this system. Maybe one day I will, but for now I'm just ignoring them. However, there were things I _did_ need to understand to get things tuned properly, and those things took some time to figure out. Those were things that I didn't have to figure out on other systems because the underlying causes weren't part of the equation on the other systems. They simply don't have that functionality. Again--the QSI system is more complex, thus requires a higher level of comprehension to address the complexity. 

Sorry it took Kevin a year, it took my friend RJ much less time than that... 
Well, someone once told me that since in his mind I was "anti-DCC," he wasn't going to answer any of my questions--that I had to figure things out for myself. So I did, without any help from "the experts." I've never said DCC is a bad thing, just that it requires some extra homework. Having trudged through it (and still doing so) I can say with absolute certainty that it's doable. It's daunting at first, but once you learn the basics, the rest begins to fall into place. 

Later, 

K


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

The big thing (to me) on using actual Airwire or they're oem equipment over QSI is that with the original Airwire you most likely will use Phoenix sound! So the cost factor of an original airwire reciever installed in each loco is an additional $150 give or take a few bucks then the Phoenix board is another additonal $185 give or take where QSI is at or around $139 and the G-wire which is essentially an airwire receiver is only $97+ give or take alot of bucks!! If you use Phoenix you are pretty much assured to use the OEM original Airwire receiver at higher bucks!! And then if you go revolutionary almost the same thing, and the savings comes after the first install on QSI, and goes up on the others after that!! Again you can build yourself two battery, decoder boxcars and cover steam, and or diesel with two, and buy a programmer and if you like to fiddle the night before change em out to what you want to run the next day. To ME and for me QSI/G-wire and the procab, throttle was the most cost effective, and easy peasey installation out there for Me anyways and I haven't found anything to really compete with all the above being said!! Regal


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Thanks again for everyone replies - I have decided to purchase the NCE controller and the Airwire G2 receiver to install into my Bachmann Shay ( I already have a phoenix sound card for it).

Can you guys recomend some venders that will sell these items a good price?

Thanks


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Careful!

You'll be charged with battery.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe if we knew your location in the world, we could answer with a dealer recommendation near you.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

I live near LAX, but ordering over the internet is fine ( and preferred ) , I will be installing this myself.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 15 Jun 2010 09:22 PM 
Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA. 
He needs to upgrade his website so you can order items from it.


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## dms1 (May 27, 2010)

While we are on the subject of stores, are there any good G train stores left in the LA \ Orange County area? I bought most of my locamotives and track at San Val, but they appear to only have a web site now. I went to Morgans Big Trains over the weekend and paid $20 more than I should have for a couple of switches ( i didnt want to wait for mail order) and he also tried to charge me $250 for replacement die cast trucks for my bachmann Shay, I offered him $160 since I saw them on the internet for $150.00 and figured $10 dollars for shipping but he turned that down, so I bought them off the internet, glad I did because I did more searching and found them for $129.00.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would recommend Litchfield station in Arizona also, free shipping over $75 and no tax to us Kalifornians. 

Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By dms1 on 15 Jun 2010 09:40 PM 
While we are on the subject of stores, are there any good G train stores left in the LA \ Orange County area? I bought most of my locamotives and track at San Val, but they appear to only have a web site now. I went to Morgans Big Trains over the weekend and paid $20 more than I should have for a couple of switches ( i didnt want to wait for mail order) and he also tried to charge me $250 for replacement die cast trucks for my bachmann Shay, I offered him $160 since I saw them on the internet for $150.00 and figured $10 dollars for shipping but he turned that down, so I bought them off the internet, glad I did because I did more searching and found them for $129.00. 

You can still buy from Al on the "Evil Bay" he is a seller under Anna Kramer, and he is VERY competitive in pricing you just have to wait and watch!!

ana.kramer items - Get great deals on Toys Hobbies, Sports Mem, Cards Fan Shop items on eBay.com!

Check him out here! Regal


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

Just call Jonathan. That's how most of us order from him. Real simple. OR send him an e-mail. 

10:20 pm PDT

Dave, I just checked his website and at the far right-hand side, it says click to order.


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## Washouglie (May 29, 2010)

Hello, I am new to the forums, and looking for all the info I can find on R/C battery as I am determined to learn to convert our engines myself, starting by building a battery boxcar and my old green Stainz, then working my way up to the Heisler. On this thread, Gary posted: Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.. I have searched for the R/C Batt forum, but have not found it. Could you direct me? Your help is most appreciated.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Washouglie on 16 Jun 2010 07:40 AM 
Hello, I am new to the forums, and looking for all the info I can find on R/C battery as I am determined to learn to convert our engines myself, starting by building a battery boxcar and my old green Stainz, then working my way up to the Heisler. On this thread, Gary posted: Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA. Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.. I have searched for the R/C Batt forum, but have not found it. Could you direct me? Your help is most appreciated. 

http://www.rctrains.com/

In the Community header I clicked on Forums, then beside the Batt/RC forum was the ad... In the same box as the forum.
The above link will take you there.
Welcome aboard.

John


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By dms1 on 12 Jun 2010 04:31 PM 
I am wanting to convert my locos to a Battery RC system and am thinking of purchasing the Airwire 900 system. Does anyone else on this board use this system? If yes, Are you happy with it? Is there any compelling reason to purchase another Battery RC system or are they all about the same?

Thanks in Advance? 


Dave S 

Thanks for starting this thread. I also need help in finding the best RC Transmitter/Receiver system to run battery cars.


I am using AR Train Engineer (not Revolution), and have continual problems with the TE receiver/Transmitter holding their link, or the link not working after several months of idle time.

I am very frustrated with the Aristo TE system, primarily, the linking between the Rec and Trans. It seems whenever, I go to run the trains, I always have an issue with the linking holding. They seem extremely sensitive, I don't know what to do to improve the operation. Whenever I call Aristo, I always get a recording; leave a message; and never get a call back. I raised this concern on the AR forum; was told in replies that the receiver switch needs to be left on 100%; use toggle switch to disconnect battery. Other people have experienced these same issues.


I am seriously considering changing sytems to something that is more reliable for battery operation and to a Company that has Customer Support that will respond to questions, no matter how mundane they may be. I realize this may be an incremental investment, but I'd rather spend it now than to perpetuate my frustration with AR/TE. AR Revolution has good quality/reliability reports and is a consideration, but AR Customer Support is a concern.


Based on this thread, Airwire seems to be my best alternative; I have several questions:

1) Can I 'easlily replace my TE receiver with an Airwire receiver in my battery cars?
2) Can the Airwire use the Plug/Play MU plugs on the AR Locomotives. I am running AR engines. The Plug/play feature is great. 

3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries.
4) I assume I would use the Airwire Transmitter.

5) I also have a Phoenix sound car including a TE accessory receiver/battery, running independent of the locomotive battery car. Have not figured how to link the Sound Board/TE accessory receiver to the TE transmitter; also have not tried very hard.


I would appreciate any help. Although I built my own battery car, I am very much a novice when it comes to these electronics.

Thanks.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Washouglie on 16 Jun 2010 07:40 AM 
Hello, I am new to the forums, and looking for all the info I can find on R/C battery as I am determined to learn to convert our engines myself, starting by building a battery boxcar and my old green Stainz, then working my way up to the Heisler. On this thread, Gary posted: Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.Order from Jonathan Bliese at Electric and Steam Modelworks. He sponsors The R/C Battery forum on this site. Great guy and very helpful. Great prices and has everything in stock. He is in Chino, CA.. I have searched for the R/C Batt forum, but have not found it. Could you direct me? Your help is most appreciated. 

I have numerous times checked out Jonathan's site, and one suggestion I would make to him, that would probably increase his sales somewhat is to list pricing there!! I hate to have to send an email, and wait for a reply, and or telephone someone to just get a price, which may be bothering some people who are busy and if you are not ordering are bothered for maybe just a price quote. With the economy the way it is and believe me for me it is even worse, I will not order anything unless I see an exact price and I know what the total cost with shipping is! Unless I missed something there,I didn't see or something! A long time ago someone told me if you don't post yer prices two things happen 1. you get the high price 2. also gives the impression that depending on how big a customer you are,or who you are, returning customer or frequent one, and or volume the better price you get!! We all know it goes on in this industry everywhere, I've experienced this several times over the last several years that I have been in this hobby! Just last week not feeling well and not getting back to the computer for emails for a bit, I saved $50+ just waiting a couple of hours, the retailer dropped his price by that later hoping I had already ordered before he did so,then sent me an email after the fact noticing I had ordered at the lesser price to cover what I believe to be trying to get an extra $50 + out of me, without knowing or myself jumping too quick!!This is not targeting Jonathan, or targeting him in any way I do not know him I just wanted to make a suggestion to IMHO help his business some! Only the suggestion he post prices on his website, everyone else pretty much does! Just an opinion, and an observation. Regal


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By truman on 16 Jun 2010 09:54 AM 
Posted By dms1 on 12 Jun 2010 04:31 PM 
I am wanting to convert my locos to a Battery RC system and am thinking of purchasing the Airwire 900 system. Does anyone else on this board use this system? If yes, Are you happy with it? Is there any compelling reason to purchase another Battery RC system or are they all about the same?

Thanks in Advance? 


Dave S 

Thanks for starting this thread. I also need help in finding the best RC Transmitter/Receiver system to run battery cars.


I am using AR Train Engineer (not Revolution), and have continual problems with the TE receiver/Transmitter holding their link, or the link not working after several months of idle time.

I am very frustrated with the Aristo TE system, primarily, the linking between the Rec and Trans. It seems whenever, I go to run the trains, I always have an issue with the linking holding. They seem extremely sensitive, I don't know what to do to improve the operation. Whenever I call Aristo, I always get a recording; leave a message; and never get a call back. I raised this concern on the AR forum; was told in replies that the receiver switch needs to be left on 100%; use toggle switch to disconnect battery. Other people have experienced these same issues.


I am seriously considering changing sytems to something that is more reliable for battery operation and to a Company that has Customer Support that will respond to questions, no matter how mundane they may be. I realize this may be an incremental investment, but I'd rather spend it now than to perpetuate my frustration with AR/TE. AR Revolution has good quality/reliability reports and is a consideration, but AR Customer Support is a concern.


Based on this thread, Airwire seems to be my best alternative; I have several questions:

1) Can I 'easlily replace my TE receiver with an Airwire receiver in my battery cars?
2) Can the Airwire use the Plug/Play MU plugs on the AR Locomotives. I am running AR engines. The Plug/play feature is great. 

3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries.
4) I assume I would use the Airwire Transmitter.

5) I also have a Phoenix sound car including a TE accessory receiver/battery, running independent of the locomotive battery car. Have not figured how to link the Sound Board/TE accessory receiver to the TE transmitter; also have not tried very hard.


I would appreciate any help. Although I built my own battery car, I am very much a novice when it comes to these electronics.

Thanks. 


IMHO, from what you said above and my experience, unless you have money to burn, I would go with QSI/G-wire, and either the T-9000 throttle by Airwire or the procab for QSI by NCE! the difference in price between the OEM Airwire receiver in each boxcar or engine if you do it that way, would be $97+for the G-wire and $135+ for the OEM airwire receiver, depending on where you buy it!! As I have said before even in this thread set up two boxcars with one for steam and one for diesel and your pretty much done by purchasing the $79 programmer too!! The only problem I have ever had with QSI was getting the T-9000 throttle to link, which a phone call to Al at Airwire solved that, but never a problem with QSI, but when I have called they have always been able to help!! Regal 

l would have sent you an email buy you only accept emails from friends listed!!! Not wanting to start a flame war on which system is the best!! That's my opinion of 3+years using the system, ease of installation, cost, value, and dependability it gets an A+ from me on all fronts!!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

1) Can I 'easlily replace my TE receiver with an Airwire receiver in my battery cars? 

You should, yes. The TE is a receiver/speed controller combination, and so is the Airwire. You'll have power going in from the batteries, power going out to the motor, and any lighting connections. 

2) Can the Airwire use the Plug/Play MU plugs on the AR Locomotives. I am running AR engines. The Plug/play feature is great. 

Are you referring to the on-board socket or the pigtails that hang off the back of the locomotive/tender? If I recall correctly, the pigtails allow easy connections to battery cars, using the motor output to control everything on the locomotive as if it were being powered by the track. In that regard, yes. You'd essentially be swapping out the "brains" of your power car, but everything else would be unaffected. If you're referring to the plug-and-play socket (the 22-pin thing) onboard the Aristo-Craft (and some Bachmann) locomotives, the Airwire throttle is currently not available in that form. 

3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries. 

Yes. 

4) I assume I would use the Airwire Transmitter. 

Airwire makes two versions of the throttle, either of which will work. There's also the NCE controller that's been discussed here which should also work. Of the three, I prefer the NCE controller, but your mileage may vary. 

5) I also have a Phoenix sound car including a TE accessory receiver/battery, running independent of the locomotive battery car. Have not figured how to link the Sound Board/TE accessory receiver to the TE transmitter; also have not tried very hard. 

Ask Phoenix as to the compatibility of your particular sound board with the Airwire. If it's not, they'll be able to point you in the direction of a compatible control system, or you can upgrade your Phoenix system to one that would work. There always seems to be a demand for the Phoenix systems. 

Good luck! 

Later, 

K


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 16 Jun 2010 11:00 AM 
1) Can I 'easlily replace my TE receiver with an Airwire receiver in my battery cars? 

You should, yes. The TE is a receiver/speed controller combination, and so is the Airwire. You'll have power going in from the batteries, power going out to the motor, and any lighting connections. 

2) Can the Airwire use the Plug/Play MU plugs on the AR Locomotives. I am running AR engines. The Plug/play feature is great. 

Are you referring to the on-board socket or the pigtails that hang off the back of the locomotive/tender? If I recall correctly, the pigtails allow easy connections to battery cars, using the motor output to control everything on the locomotive as if it were being powered by the track. In that regard, yes. You'd essentially be swapping out the "brains" of your power car, but everything else would be unaffected. If you're referring to the plug-and-play socket (the 22-pin thing) onboard the Aristo-Craft (and some Bachmann) locomotives, the Airwire throttle is currently not available in that form. 


*I'm referring to the pigtails that hang off the back of the locomotive/tender. After thinking about it, I could probably add a MU connector to the Airwire receiver wires that connect to the engine... sam as I did for the TE receiver.
*

3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries. 

Yes. 

4) I assume I would use the Airwire Transmitter. 

Airwire makes two versions of the throttle, either of which will work. There's also the NCE controller that's been discussed here which should also work. Of the three, I prefer the NCE controller, but your mileage may vary. 


*Why do you prefer the NCE controller? Not sure what you mean by "your mileage may vary".* 


5) I also have a Phoenix sound car including a TE accessory receiver/battery, running independent of the locomotive battery car. Have not figured how to link the Sound Board/TE accessory receiver to the TE transmitter; also have not tried very hard. 

Ask Phoenix as to the compatibility of your particular sound board with the Airwire. If it's not, they'll be able to point you in the direction of a compatible control system, or you can upgrade your Phoenix system to one that would work. There always seems to be a demand for the Phoenix systems. 

Good luck! 

Later, 

K Thanks. I appreciate the reply.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries. 

Yes. 

Provided you purchase the new G2 decoder. The older split supply decoder will require the use of a voltage regulator.


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By blueregal on 16 Jun 2010 10:07 AM 

*l would have sent you an email buy you only accept emails from friends listed!!! *
I didn't realize my email settings were set at 'friends; now changed to 'everyone'. I'm open to more comments. 
I am partial to Phoenix for sound, and have one setup in a box car as a sound car for my diesel. Therefore, do I really need QSI? From what everyone has said in this thread, I'm leaning to the Airwire 900/G2 decoder as my receiver replacement for the TE Receiver, and the NCE controller. What is the $79 Programmer?


Thanks. I really appreciate the replies and comments from everyone.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

The $79 programmer lets you program into your QSI decoder any sound file that they have on their site www.QSIsolutions.com. So therefore you only set up two boxcars with steam and diesel and then you can program any engine you want into the decoder with the programmer, while your engine is setting on a track hooked up via the programmer. The site sound file downloads and Q2 program setup is all free! If you want to save money and have 32 give or take functions from your throttle for less money then QSI is for you. I'm not talking against Phoenix but i've had 3-4 setups with Phoenix and again for me the ease of installation, simplicity, cost factor, and quality and never having a problem with my 8 installations in 3 years it works for me. You have to decide for yourself what's best for you! Check out my stuff by cliking on the links in my webpage on the left in blue!! See and hear for yourself If I can be of any help let me know Greg E. when he has the time is very helpful too!! Regal 




Blueregals Garden Railroading Home Page

Crazy Train Guy's Garden Railroad Channel - live streaming video powered by Livestream

Check QSI's website here!! 

QSI Solutions | Realistic DCC Locomotive Sound Systems


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm referring to the pigtails that hang off the back of the locomotive/tender. 
If that's the case, then I believe all that's doing is taking the power from the battery instead of the track, and running it to the motor/lights/smoke on the locomotive. If you've got that going with the Aristo stuff, then the output of the Airwire will do the same thing. You won't have constant headlights or anything that you'd have with a system instalelled in the particular locomotive, but it should at least work as your current set-up does. 

Why do you prefer the NCE controller? Not sure what you mean by "your mileage may vary". 
A few reasons. The NCE has dedicated buttons for whistle, bell, and headlight that mirror the function buttons, but you don't have to remember which numbers are what. I also like the momentum adjustment on it. You press "momentum" and a number 0 - 9, and you can quickly adjust the momentum of your train. What I can't say for certain--because I've not used the combination--is whether those macros translate to the Airwire cards or if they're specific to the QSI board. I'm led to believe that since all they're doing is adjusting CV values, that it should apply to all, but don't quote me on that. That's something you'd want to ask Airwire. 

I say "your milage may vary" because you may find the Airwire throttles more convenient for you. It's purely subjective. My dad uses the Airwire throttles, and I find the NCE more comfortable to use. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They are not macros, just intelligently labeled buttons. F0, F1, and F2 are pretty much standard as headlight, bell, and whistle in DCC. The momentum button is sort of a macro in that it sets both acceleration and deceleration (they are settable individually) with one button, setting the acceleration to twice the deceleration (works pretty well). So you can use these buttons with no knowledge of CV's. (all of these functions are NMRA DCC standard functions) 

More distinctively, the display prompts you for input, has 2 lines of information, and other functions, like consisting are very simplified, since they have dedicated buttons. Furthermore all possible function buttons 0-28 are easy to get to, 0-12 are on the "front" and hitting the option button shifts 0-9 to 10-19 with one press. No, not many people have all 29 functions defined, but the QSI and the upcoming DCC compatible MTH Protosound III do have 28 "callable sounds"... 

Overall, the downside of the NCE is that it's larger, but the pluses are a huge increase in ease of use, both conceptually, and fewer buttons and sequences to enter. 

Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

yep, what Greg said above, and its way CHEAPER, whoops as a salesman you never use that term, It's less expensive a bunch!!! But then there are alot of gazzillionaires on here who don't care what dey spend on STUFF!! Hah LOL Regal


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jerry, in terms of the cost of just the controller as being discussed here, the NCE is the most expensive option of the three. ($240 to Airwire's $220 and $160 for their two options.) In terms of control boards, the QSI/G-wire is cheaper than the G-2/Phoenix, but remember that each has functions the other does not. You need to balance which functions you like relative to the price of the system. If the system doesn't do what you want it to do, it's not worth any price. 

Later, 

K


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin yer buyin yer stuff at the wrong place, I'm buyin the NCE procab for $180 what you tink??? That's everyday, you need to spend more time with me I could learn you a thingy or two maybe. Airwire is last I looked $215 for the T-9000 are we on the same page????? Regal 

Oh p&s just looked at the Airwire T9000 its $190 everyday, so its really a toss up price wise, but I like the NCE too for simplicity, that we can agree on, you me and Greg makes 3 Hah LOL Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... street price is the only thing that makes sense, not list price. 

At RLD (I use them because they have good prices and carry both products) 

AirWire 900 throttle $150 
AirWire T9000 throttle $200 
NCE Gwire throttle $180 

This is a no-brainer on the throttle selection in my opinion, and DIRECT experience using all 3 throttles. 

On the comparison between the Airwire Receiver + Phoenix vs. the QSI, I would say the major points are 
[*] higher current on the Airwire [*] more complete sound library with the Phoenix [*] more realistic "sounds under load" with the QSI [*] more controllable sounds with the QSI [*] single board, less wiring with the QSI [*] cruise control feature with the Airwire [/list] There's more but I think these are the ones most people have noticed and are most important

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Quite right on street price. Now, if we could just get the something like the Revolution's display screen on the NCE throttle, _that'd_ be a sweet controller! 

Greg, a question on the Airwire/QSI comparison. The Airwire has lighting outputs for strobes, etc. built in. The QSI literature has a plug for an accessory board to do the same thing, but I've yet to see where it's available. Are there other suitable boards that plug in? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good point Kevin, I did forget that... the optional lighting board is mentioned, but not yet available... but there is something coming just around the corner I am told. 

That's another advantage for the CVP board. 

Right now, the best solution for additional lighting outputs for a QSI loco is to add a $15 lighting controller board across the track inputs, the TCS FL4 is a good choice with 4 outputs. They are tiny, and work well and have tons of built in lighting effects. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Would that work with the G-wire receiver? It's got solder pads for use with other decoders, but I can't remember if it's an either/or thing or if you can connect something like the lighting circuit to the pads and still connect the QSI via the ribbon cable. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You know, I slipped back into track power! 

Yes, that would probably be a problem, you need a lighting unit that can be powered separately from the signal input... it has been done with other decoders, but not the FL4 yet. I should pull mine apart and try it. 

But for practical purposes, yes, not a battery power workaround yet that normal humans can do. 

The upcoming new QSI will have the lighting outputs as a normal DCC decoder would have. 

But, it's not here yet, and no firm date. 

I updated my airwire page with our discussion and some other information that might be helpful:

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mai...rs/airwire* 


Regards, Greg


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 17 Jun 2010 12:20 PM 
Hmm... street price is the only thing that makes sense, not list price. 

At RLD (I use them because they have good prices and carry both products) 

AirWire 900 throttle $150 
AirWire T9000 throttle $200 
NCE Gwire throttle $180 

This is a no-brainer on the throttle selection in my opinion, and DIRECT experience using all 3 throttles. 

On the comparison between the Airwire Receiver + Phoenix vs. the QSI, I would say the major points are 
[*] higher current on the Airwire [*] more complete sound library with the Phoenix [*] more realistic "sounds under load" with the QSI [*] more controllable sounds with the QSI [*] single board, less wiring with the QSI [*] cruise control feature with the Airwire [/list] There's more but I think these are the ones most people have noticed and are most important

Regards, Greg Thanks alot for all the input. I really appreciate the comments from everybody. I have copied a considerable amount of info from Greg's and Airwire/NCE/QSI sites; now I must digest it all. Unfortunately, I'm going to need time to study this in more detail. After installing 200+ track this spring, I need to move on to other summer projects (non-train related). If I understand correctly, I see I have two alternatives (I understand the costs may change, pending the vendor): 


1. NCE Procab Throttle - $180 
Airwire G2 decoder (Receiver) - $150 
Phoenix Sound - $185... I already have Phoenix Big Sound BK2 
Option: QSI Programmer - $79 

Total: $515 - $594 


2. NCE Procab Throttle - $180 
QSI Sound - $139 
Airwire Receiver - $97 
Option: QSI Programmer - $79 

Total: $416 - $495 

Did I capture this correctly, including the 'rough' costs? 

Greg, your site has a wealth of information. If OK with you, once I get into buying/installing this R/C system, I'd like to email you with questions if I need to. 



Thanks again. 


Frank (Truman)


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By Jim Agnew on 16 Jun 2010 05:17 PM 
3) Can I use AR Li Ion batteries (23-24 volts) with Airwire; I have 6 of these batteries and would like to avoid the cost of new batteries. 

Yes. 

*Provided you purchase the new G2 decoder. The older split supply decoder will require the use of a voltage regulator. *
Will the QSI Sound/G-Wire Receiver system work with the AR Li-Ion batteries (23-24 Volts), like the CVP G2 decoder? Or, will it re[/b]quire a voltage regulator[/b]? [/b] 


Based on comments on this thread relative to cost and function, I want to convert one of my trains, either a AR RS3 diesel or AR Mikado, to QSI sound. If QSI G-Wire is not compatible with the LI-Ion batteries (or needs a voltage regulator), can I use the CVP G2 decoder with QSI sound to get the 'wireless' function?[/b] I am running 100% batteries (no track power).


Thanks.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The QSI will work up to about 35 or 37 volts, so no worries there. 

You could use the CVP G2 with the QSI, but you would be wasting the capabilities of the QSI. The QSI wants to be connected to a motor, because it reads the motor rpm and load to modify the sounds and do chuff timing (although it will also work with chuff contacts). 

With the G2, I would recommend the Phoenix. You won't get the same features (load sensing and motor rpm reading), but it's a better "package" combination with the G2. 

The G2 also has some unique capabilities, the standout one is the "cruise control". 

You can use either or both setups with your Airwire / Gwire setup. 

Regards, Greg


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Truman,

You indicated you were having issues with the older Aristocraft Train Engineer. Is it the 27MHzor the 75MHz version? I am currently running the 27MHz version on three track loops with three separate controllers with no issue like you indicated.

Rich


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

I have the 27 MHz TE (not Revolution), originally purchased in 2006. The receiver failed in May/June 2007; AR replaced it. Bought a second one in 2009.It seems whenever I went to run the trains, I always had trouble with the trans/Rec linking or holding the link.

Worse, whenever I called AR, especially the last two years, I always got an answering machine and did not receive a call back. I posted a thread on the AR Forum and received comments from others that the receiver switch should be left on all the time and use a toggle switch to shut off the power to the battery.


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## truman (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Jun 2010 09:45 PM 
The QSI will work up to about 35 or 37 volts, so no worries there. 

You could use the CVP G2 with the QSI, but you would be wasting the capabilities of the QSI. The QSI wants to be connected to a motor, because it reads the motor rpm and load to modify the sounds and do chuff timing (although it will also work with chuff contacts). 

With the G2, I would recommend the Phoenix. You won't get the same features (load sensing and motor rpm reading), but it's a better "package" combination with the G2. 

The G2 also has some unique capabilities, the standout one is the "cruise control". 

You can use either or both setups with your Airwire / Gwire setup. 

Regards, Greg Thanks Greg,
I'm going ahead with your recommendations: QSI sound/GWire receiver; also, the NCE GWIRE Throttle. Based on this install/performance, for my 2nd train with the Phoenix 'Big Sound 2K2', I will probaly get the CVP G2 decoder.


I've contacted Jonathan at EMW to get prices.

Again, Thanks to Greg and others who posted to this thread (there have been many). I appreciate the time that you all have taken; I personally have learned a lot from this thread and past threads, most notably, the one from last Nov/Dec on the Battery/Power Forum.


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