# Switch machine control



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm contemplating using the Piko switch machines, because of their good weatherproofing. The price is right (about $35), but they ream you for the optional DCC decoder (another $60) and relay contacts (and another ~$22+).

I don't think they're the "stall motor" type, because they can't take constant voltage being applied. On the other hand, I'm not totally sure if they're an instantaneous coil type (though there are coils in them, per their lit).

Question: has anyone found an alternate decoder that works well with these Piko machines? 

BTW, I have a number of Train Li DCC switch drives, and the price is great ($45, DCC ready; and dirt cheap to add secondary relay contacts). I might just keep using them, but they're not sealed up at all like the Piko's. Anyone used both? Any opinions on other factors?

Thanks,
Cliff

[edit]

I just read that the NCE Switch-Kat ($20) is programmable for how many milliseconds its output stays on, so that's cool. True, I'd need a WP box & connectors, but they're cheap. Anyone hooked it up with a Piko?


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

I've not investigated the Piko switch machines but I assume they're the same technology as LGB, ie. a reversible dc motor or equivalent? 

For my LGB switch machines I've used NCE SwitchKat decoders, each one sealed in a small electronic project box. Here in the UK I found this to be a cheaper solution than the LGB or Massoth single channel decoders. They've survived well outside for a few years now, though on some I've recently removed the screw terminals which had rusted, and soldered wires directly to the board.




















One day I must get hold of a Piko switch machine and try it with a SwitchKat. No reason why it shouldn't work in principle.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the reply and the pics! And good idea, potting the **** out of it with RTV. I'm glad to hear they're still working well. 

The Piko literature is pretty vague; they mention internal coils not being able to take sustained power, so that seems unlike my motorized Train Li units (which have an internal cutoff, once the switch is thrown). So I put one on order, and I'll report back on my findings. 

Thanks again,
Cliff


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

Hi Cliff, I just purchased two Piko switch machines and two Switch KAT NCE decoders. The Piko machine is a coil driven design and the Switch KAT seems to handle them well. I have not installed them outside yet. I'm experimenting with them indoors and need to water proof the decoder. I found the decoder very easy to program, just attach a wire from PROG and GND and with the decoder track wires attached, push SELECT ACCESSORY, type in the address you want for that switch, hit ENTER then select 1 for NORMAL and you are done. It won't switch when you program it but just disconnect the program wire hit SELECT ACCESSORY, type the address you assigned it, hit ENTER then type 1 for NORMAL and it will switch. After this you can hit the SELECT ACCESSORY button and toggling it will switch the last addressed machine. The Piko switch tends to sit a little high and I had a problem with the steam gear on my Bachmann Connie hitting the top of the machine's housing. I made extensions out of ABS square tube from my local hobby shop to push out the machine about an inch and a half. 









Steve


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great information, thanks very much Steve! 

I went ahead and ordered one to test drive, so I'm relieved to hear your confirmation. Good tip on the extension too, I'll probably have to do that as well.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff... I use the Crest Accessory Module to run my LGB 1201 switch motors... I believe the PIKO motors are most compatible....

Yes, it requires both the TX and Accessory receiver but they work very, very well....

I even run 2 motors from one output port on the receiver.... That way I can run up to 10 swtiches (5 pair)....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Stan, I'm already invested in DCC, but that sounds like a cool system. I tried to find the module, are they still available?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've read this thread, and using an NCE system, throwing switches is dead simple.

I have the switch number on the "switch motor" on every turnout. 

I have 4 year olds that have no problems lining up their routes.

And the revolution system needs more keystrokes to do the same thing.

I'd say your dcc system will do just fine once you try it out.

I'm using Digitrax DS-64 units powered from the rails.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, looks like a great product. I'd seen it before, but didn't see till now that it handles both snap and slow motors. Even has route programming.

I just got my sample Piko unit in, and operated it (along with a ProDrive). The Piko is definitely snap-action coil-type (vs. the slow servo motor ProDrive). So, the NCE SwitchKat or Digitrax DS-64 should work with the Piko, while the ProDrive has a built-in decoder. 

For route automation, I see that the DS-64 has up to 8 route programs (each controlling up to 8 switches), and is operated via the DCC system (no extra hardware). Alternatively, the NCE Mini-Panel has up to 30 inputs (say, for pushbuttons), each able to run a script of 4 commands (say, 4 turnout alignments). The latter would require new hardware, like boxes & buttons. 

Still deciding on all that, but the Piko now seems less of a mystery.
Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Have 6 of them and no issues. I'm running solenoids, so I have the continuous output mode.

I like them better than the equivalent NCE product.

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Right, solenoid valves. Very flexible control product. Do you use the route programming?

I just opened up the two machines, and thought I'd add some comparison commentary.

Footprint is about the same, though the Piko's mounting holes are a bit narrower. Height is similar, though Piko is slightly taller. If someone cares, I'll measure.










There's a big dif in sealing, as I've mentioned somewhere. Piko has a bellows around the throw bar on both sides, while the TL's throw bar is a plastic channel that isn't sealed at all. If it were a solid bar, it would plug up the rectangular opening some, but it's wide open between the channel's legs. 

Further, the TL has two holes in the bottom; and since the box is stood off, bugs have an easy campground inside. Maybe the holes are for draining out the water that comes through the throwbar holes?










Removing the cover, you see the Piko has a rubber seal all around, while the TL has none. But, the TL board appears well potted. 










This is a good place to point out the difference in motors. The Piko looks and acts like a solenoid-driven half-turn "motor". Never seen anything like it. The TL motor looks and acts like a mini (or micro) RC servo, including its 3-wire rc-type plug. 

The Piko is about $35, the TL about $45. So far, Piko seems pretty good.

But, here's some electronic issues to factor in. The TL has...
- a built-in DCC decoder (works also with DC) (Pikos's costs about $60 extra)
- a built-in socket for driving an LED (when thrown to one direction; but not the other, as I recall)
- a place for an inexpensive SPDT microswitch for driving frogs or signals or whatever (Pikos's costs about $25 extra)

I don't have a spring scale sensitive enough to test this, but the TL seems to have much more push-pull force than the Piko. The Piko is easily flipped to the other side, while there's no way to do that with the TL (you can't back-drive the servo, but only press against the springs). So, I'll probably have to really keep the points clearer of debris for the Piko's than the TL's.

I have 10 TL's, and need another 10. Not a big layout yet. So maybe I'll get Piko's for my yard area, run them all with the Digitrax DS-64, and use the handheld to throw the TL's directly. And see how that goes for a couple years. Makes sense, and no wiring to speak of. 

Oddly, I'm having a hard time saying adios to the button boxes, I've always liked the idea of switches on a graphic surface, don't ask me why... 

Thinkin' out loud...

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I was just reading about macros for NCE systems, which apparently can serve the same purposes as the Digitrax DS-64. It seems also that the NCE macro can control all decoders in the system (not just the ones directly hooked to the DS-64). Am I understanding that correctly?

I clearly have a lot of things to learn in all this!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> This is a good place to point out the difference in motors. The Piko looks and acts like a solenoid-driven half-turn "motor". Never seen anything like it. The TL motor looks and acts like a mini (or micro) RC servo, including its 3-wire rc-type plug.
> 
> I don't have a spring scale sensitive enough to test this, but the TL seems to have much more push-pull force than the Piko. The Piko is easily flipped to the other side, while there's no way to do that with the TL (you can't back-drive the servo, but only press against the springs). So, I'll probably have to really keep the points clearer of debris for the Piko's than the TL's.
> 
> ...


 
The Piko motor is not a solenoid. It works using a bar magnet enclosed in a round plastic tube with a gear on one end and a locating pin on the other.

When the coils are energized they interact with the magnet causing the tube to turn, just like a rotary motor. The direction is determined by the polarity.

The gear at the end of the tube interacts with a linear gear cut into the bottom of the throw bar.

The metal surrounds that locate the tube's pin and gear to keep it centered have plastic spacers to hold them separated in position. These plastic spacers have "ears" that stick out where the to where the tube gear interfaces with the linear gear and a nub on the tube gear hits the ears to keep the motor from spinning more than ~90 degrees in either direction. When it hits the ears, it stalls so current should be released.

If there is no provision for the TL motor to be pushed to one side or the other, there are going to be LOTS OF DERAILMENTS from trains entering a trailing point turnout with the points set the wrong way.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> Oddly, I'm having a hard time saying adios to the button boxes, I've always liked the idea of switches on a graphic surface, don't ask me why...


I agree, I prefer a mimic panel, it's what I'm used to with small scale layouts. 

I think you mentioned the NCE MiniPanel in an earlier post? I've used one to create a small panel for my line. It uses stud-and-probe to save space internally, but I'll probably rebuild in a larger box with push-buttons the next time I modify the trackwork!





















Nick


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Todd, thanks for the info. I should have used the term "coil," and my observations match what you've said.

The TL unit has springs in the throw-bar, which are a little stronger than the LGB's. A heavy loco will cut the switch, but lighter cars will derail when cutting. So, good point, perhaps that's a plus on the Piko side. Sounds like you've been using them?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

ntpntpntp said:


> I agree, I prefer a mimic panel, it's what I'm used to with small scale layouts.
> 
> Nick


Nick, what a neat and clean little panel, beautiful! Yes, that's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to plug in (to a weatherproof socket box), and bring back indoors when done. 

Your use of the term "mimic panel" makes me wonder about something. I've been reading some, and it looks like the mini-panel can store a large array of macros, while the main command station cannot. Is there a way to store macros that both the handheld and the mini-panel can access? 

Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

No, I've never seen one until you posted the picture. But I've seen lots of LGB 1201s and it is basically the same thing with better waterproofing.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> I've been reading some, and it looks like the mini-panel can store a large array of macros, while the main command station cannot. Is there a way to store macros that both the handheld and the mini-panel can access?
> 
> Cliff


 Honestly couldn't say, I haven't really studied the capabilities of the mini-panel beyond creating simple macros to fire switch decoders - and that was a while ago, I've forgotten how I did it! 

Might be worth posting a question on the NCE-DCC Yahoo group?


Nick


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Todd. Are the 1201's better sealed than the TL's? And I wonder if the 1201's have improved / cheaper electronics opportunities than the Pikos, say, light output and/or relay contacts?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

ntpntpntp said:


> Honestly couldn't say, I haven't really studied the capabilities of the mini-panel beyond creating simple macros to fire switch decoders - and that was a while ago, I've forgotten how I did it!
> 
> Might be worth posting a question on the NCE-DCC Yahoo group?
> 
> Nick


Good idea, I've put the question to them.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

toddalin said:


> No, I've never seen one until you posted the picture. But I've seen lots of LGB 1201s and it is basically the same thing with better waterproofing.


I just saw an exploded diagram of the LGB 1201, and you're right, they're identical. So I won't bother with them. Saw the 1206 and accessories, and no real bargain there that I could see (vs. TL ProDrive or Piko+other decoder). But thanks for the idea; I'm looking under all the rocks I'm aware of.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Digg'n und'r rocks again Cliffy..!

..how exciting....

How about a lite spring between your turnouts an drives ..regardless of make!!
Protect your drives from erant rocks
Protect ya from derailYments..
Add a short offset spacer mount to gain room for it....

.... thoughts buddy....just ...


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> I just saw an exploded diagram of the LGB 1201, and you're right, they're identical. So I won't bother with them. Saw the 1206 and accessories, and no real bargain there that I could see (vs. TL ProDrive or Piko+other decoder). But thanks for the idea; I'm looking under all the rocks I'm aware of.


 
Actually, I can see where the new unit from Piko will be a greater PITA than the LGB 1201.

The biggest problem with the LGB unit is that if the points get fouled and you throw the turnout, or even worse, push the points with your finger, the linear gear can skip a tooth on the rotary gear as the plastic deforms slightly. Then, the turnout motor will not throw all of the way in one direction.

You need to remove the top, lift the linear gear, rotate the rotary gear to the center, as evidenced by its tab, and put the linear gear back on the rotary gear with the points near the midway position as the pin at the end of the linear gear drops into the loop on the point throw bar.

With those rubber bellows in place, it appears that it may me harder to lift the linear gear to re-center it on the rotary gear, and with the fattened area at the center of the linear gear, you can't easily see the tab on the rotary gear to center it, assuming that this problem was not resolved.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good thoughts Dirk; I'd have to enlarge my "foundations" for the machines, I guess that's an option down the road. 

I know exactly what you mean Todd. When the cover was off, the rack easily mis-registered from the gear. I didn't see any tabs, but I eventually got things re-registered correctly by trial and error. The bellows didn't interfere with this: the teeth seemed to slip very easily. Too easily; should have made them deeper.

Getting the cover off and on would be tough on the layout, because the screws can so easily get lost. Especially with my eyesight. 

The rubber seal wanted to stick to the cover; and since it's one with the boots, it occurred to me that it might tear. Don't want that. Maybe some o-ring lube might be in order for that. 

Cliff


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> I was just reading about macros for NCE systems, which apparently can serve the same purposes as the Digitrax DS-64. It seems also that the NCE macro can control all decoders in the system (not just the ones directly hooked to the DS-64). Am I understanding that correctly?
> 
> I clearly have a lot of things to learn in all this!


Macros are the way to go Cliff. The NCE systems works great with the Train Line drives.
My entire layout is macroed. I can send a train to anywhere on my layout with just a couple of entries. 


I believe you can have up to 30 macros, each macro controlling up to 10 switches each.
This gives you just about unlimited possibilities. 

I also liked the Piko switches and for straight DC they are a good value, but at $95+ each for standalone 
DCC use they are way to expensive for me.

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for your confirmations Ron! And yes, the more I read about it, the macro's seem the solution for me. 

I just read that the mini-panel can invoke command station macros (which the Procab can as well). So for starters I'll work with just the handheld, calling macros (and a cheat card, I have a hard time remembering numbers). And at a later time, add the mini-panel (I love Nick's little box!), which would call the very same macros.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff... So sorry for the delay in responding... Been away at a conference for a few days...

Yes, the Auxiliary Boards are available...

http://http://shop.crest-electronics.net/CRE57074-REMOTE-SWITCH-MACHINE-CRE57074.htm


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm confused, are you considering purchasing a Revolution transmitter and revolution receivers and switch controllers, so you will be holding 2 remotes at the same time?

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

First post asked for Alternatives, Stan is obliging. Cliff loves to touch every base, that's all.
John, the meddler.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I'm confused, are you considering purchasing a Revolution transmitter and revolution receivers and switch controllers, so you will be holding 2 remotes at the same time?
> 
> Greg


John's right; was just curious. No, I don't want another remote; how would I hold the beer?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

All remotes should have beverage holders and then 2 would be better than one.
This would also help in keeping the antenna vertical to polarize the output waves consistantly.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

CliffyJ said:


> John's right; was just curious. No, I don't want another remote; how would I hold the beer?



http://image.dhgate.com/albu_292736428_00-1.0x0/retail-1-pcs-football-fans-cap-wine-beverage.jpg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Cool, just like Dan suggested, I like it. Could even put an aux DCC antenna on that thing, 3D print the whole shebang, and be all set. Oh, and hook for the barbecue spatula!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

BTW, Todd, I should have congratulated you earlier on your article. What a beautiful panel!

Did you have a write-up somewhere on your diode matrix? I've seen articles elsewhere on the subject, but I was wondering if you had written something yourself.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> John's right; was just curious. No, I don't want another remote; how would I hold the beer?


Sorry, Cliff... I didn't even consider that....


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> BTW, Todd, I should have congratulated you earlier on your article. What a beautiful panel!
> 
> Did you have a write-up somewhere on your diode matrix? I've seen articles elsewhere on the subject, but I was wondering if you had written something yourself.


 
This is where I learned it from. Funny thing is when I completed it, George Schreyer and his son came by and I showed it to them and his son asked George why mine was so "neat" looking compared to his.

http://www.trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips3/interlocking_tips.html


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Stan! 

Todd, that's a great story. Yes, you DO have a very tidy panel! 

Naptowneng / Jerry might be interested in this approach, so I was interested to see if you had done any writeups yourself. The one you mention is the main article I had read; very thorough. The other one I saw got into the matrix panel discussion a little more:

http://www.trainweb.org/SunriseDivision/handouts/Build_a_Diode_Matrix.pdf

With DCC though, I'll use the method Nick & I were discussing. Either way, fun stuff!

Thanks,
Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Actually, I was referring to the diode matrix itself. I used a large piece of perf board. Lengths of 16 gauge wire were stripped of their insulation and the "verticals" were put on one side of the board and the "horizontals" on the other.

With the stripped wire, you just lay the piece out along your board, tuck the ends into holes at the ends of the board, pull it taught, and hit the ends with a touch of solder to secure them. This results in an easier (less "threading" of the wire) and cleaner setup.

So was it the red or the blue pill to get into the _matrix_?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very cool, I'll bet you had fun making that. Pic anywhere?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Kodachrome.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Just an update,

I've been working through some related issues on a couple other threads (thanks guys!), and am now getting back to the switch control box. 

Mini-Panel is in hand. My wp boxes just came in, from ProWaterParts.com, very nice / sturdy / well-sealed it seems. The DCC ProDrives are on their way back from Train-Li, rc-relay unit is on order from somewhere in China, ditto wp pushbuttons; and panel graphics are coming from echodgraphics.com. 

I'll post more when some actual progress occurs with these bits and pieces.

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Got back on this a little today, with some progress on the ProDrive machine wiring.

Train Li programmed them for DCC at specific addresses. And, after trying "direct" programming mode (thanks Ron B. for your article some time back) I was able to program the first one from there.

My intention is to have all machines have two-color, daylight-visible, local, momentary, illuminated indication of position, based on a color scheme I'm still working on. Also, for a few important switches that might need it, local pushbuttons. Here's the design of the housings for both:



















The main pushbutton housing is intended to be a replacement cover for the prodrive, with two waterproof pushbottons and an extra protectiv hatch over them. The lower skirt would be real cedar, the opper cover pieces 3d printed. First articles of the housings are being made via a local entrepreneur listed on 3Dhubs.com. Thought I'd give them a try, vs. Shapeways.

Here's the circuit, with some helpful corrections having been given by Axel. This is just my rendition of course, nothing official from Train Li.










So I did some electrical testing today. With prodrive cv35 set to some common address (shared by all prodrives on the layout), one can energize all indicators via that address. So it was neat to see that work, for the first test machine. Here's some a pics of the breadboarding. 




























The wiring is pretty simple, beginning with an rc battery-type jst connector (about 2.5mm?) from the ~24v lantern pins on the prodrive. The inboard pin is positive, and goes to the common spade of an spdt microswitch (available from Train Li, or a place like Digikey). I put a 180ohm resistor here, to drop the voltage down from 23v to 12v. 

The two outputs go the the two red wires of the led's while their black wires go to the outboard pin of the lantern connection. So, what happens is that when you turn on accessory 99 (in my case), the lantern circuit is enabled, lighting off whichever one the microswitch is set to. The lights stay on until you turn that address off again.

BTW, the "indicator tie" recently got chopped in half. Here's the current design, which would be siliconed into the cut end of a regular tie. I was forced to do this, because when I looked at the layout, many of my preferred indication locations (for line of sight and "disambiguation," as they say in Wikipedia) required the lights do be downstream of the switch, after the forkage. Hence, independently mounted. This allows the indication to be at the ends of switch ties, if absolutely needed.

Like I mentioned, these particular LED's are 12v, pre-wired with a resistor. The reason I like them is that they are 4-chip super-flux type, so really bright (they're hard to look at). And, they come pre-potted in a waterproof housing. These are from oznium.com. Though the brightest colors (by far) are white and green, you can get red, blue, amber, pink, and UV. With the latter, theoretically, you could indicate switch position with little Elvis figures painted in transparent UV paint, haha!

http://www.oznium.com/prewired-superflux/tech

There are other methods of bi-color indication here, e.g., a relay driven by the lantern output (and having cv35 set to the Prodrive address, making it come on when flipped to one side). But I really liked the idea of being able to have all indication come on temporarily, but be switched back off when not needed. True, you could run a power bus for all the indicators and switch that off, but that's just extra wiring.

The other thing was the pushbuttons, which can be wired to a special socket on the Prodrive board. Train Li has these, and Axel has been doing his best on offering a good price on them, but I wanted to locate a cheaper source (because they seem like cheap plugs). After failing on making my own (the pins are too small for me to see, let alone crimp), and lots of misc. headbanging and emailing, here's the bottom line. Thanks to the JST rep's advice, you can get 5 free samples directly from JST, and additional quantities that I don't have a price for yet. Here's the samples:










You can go to their site, at http://jst.com/home10.html. You'll be asking for "terminated samples" of housing SHR-0V4-S-B, with pins SSH-003T-P0.2H, and wire of 28awg, length of ~12" or whatever. You can request up to 99 I think, but they'll charge you for >5. I'll do that later, and report what I discover about the price.

Anyway I put the plug in, and was thrilled to see it fit (long story). And (by just touching the wires) the switch worked perfectly. The connection can be instantaneous, or continuous. So you don't have to hold the button for any real length of time. The two outboard wires are for one button, the two inboard for the other. So I plan on having a single button on the remote box, which will hopefully toggle the indicators on/off. If that doesn't work, I'll use a 2nd pb for the "off" mini-panel script. 

Eventually, I'll get to the building of the remote boxes, based on the wireless relays (firing mini-panel scripts) that Nick brought up. Here's a box, which was about $28 from ProWaterParts.










The graphics came out ok, seem pretty durable.










That's it for now, thanks for viewing!

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If you are going to use a drag along track cleaner or pole sander..., did you account for any additional height so that your wood doesn't get ground down?

As it is, a drywall sander will remove the plastic and most of the screw head from the LGB turnout motor.










Also, recognize that the inside of the cover for the 1201 turnout motor has a specific contour to help hold the bar in place, where the bar slides across, that you may need to reproduce for reliable operation. Maybe the Pikos are a bit different in that respect.










BTW, the graphics came out awesome!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Todd,

Yep, you're right about the cleaner. So that would make these not very attractive for people having brass rail power. Fortunately, my rails are nickle plated, and clean up with a swiffer pad. 

And yes, you're right about that hold-down feature. I'm having the test pieces printed, so we'll see how well things go. I'm kind of concerned about tolerances between 3d printing batches / processes being able to adequately replace the stock cover, so this is still very experimental.

Thanks, glad you like the graphics! 

BTW, Axel just pinged me on my LED polarities, they're both reversed. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another update. The bad news is that the test run of parts through a local 3d printer (via 3dhubs.com) was a complete fail. I tried to go with a guy who had decent reviews. What I received though had so much "support structure" that I couldn't get it off. It was as strong as the part. 




























After a half hour, and almost stabbing my paw two times, I called it quits and tossed it all in the can. Lesson learned.

On a brighter front, I have a more efficient design now for the indicators. I was using a pre-wired pre-potted LED from Oznuim. But is was tall. And, I have to swap out the resistor anyway and pot the LED ito my own housing. So I found the mother lode of these LED chips, called "superflux" and/or "Piranha." They have 4 leds within the clear casting, and cost about $.22 (vs almost $4). 

http://lighthouseleds.com/led-compo...r-flux-leds-1/superflux-piranha-5mm-leds.html

Wring these myself, they will permit a shorter assembly such as this:










The entire device is within the dimensions of existing features of my turnouts (i.e., the cover over the Train Li throwbar area), and is below the rail top (for code 332). Unless I can find a better choice, I'll use Shapeways for the housings.

Cliff


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Consider this as an opportunity to examine the effects of the elements and various factors on the durability of the plastic before you re-commit. 

My understanding is that the plastics can be made from various base materials, some of which may be more impervious to the elements and oils (e.g., WD-40) used in the hobby than others. Also, check for the effects of various cleaning products and detergents that may "eat into" some types of plastic.

Does it deform in the presence heat as on a hot sunny day or in hot water if squirted with a hose that has been sitting in the sun? You may want to check this using a heat lamp at a distance or such.

You may find that the material does or doesn't hold up, which may ultimately affect your decisions.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

So, instead of throwing it in the trash, maybe nail it to a sunny spot on the deck and see what happens?
Good idea. However, this was just a check-print for dimensions, made from (cheaper) PLA. The final ones will be either Nylon or ABS. Still a good point though.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Had some good success today in making my first macro's, triggering them with the mini panel, and triggering the mini panel with a wireless relay board.

Here's a really hideous video of me trying to describe the components.






===>CliffyJ


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Looks like it's all coming together well. I knew you'd beat me to it! 
Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now I finally see why you were asking all those questions.. You want several stationary control panels, but all wireless, no cab bus wiring between them.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You got it Greg. I started out thinking I'd have to have it wired to the cab bus, but with Nick's idea it's wireless now. So I'm sure it's been confusing to follow.

Better hurry Nick, I'm still hoping you'll be the first one to hack that remote, ha ha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I did a little more yesterday, setting the lantern CV (35) and installing temp microswitches and leds, to get a sort of overall breadboard going. The led's are from leftover projects, so no real color code intended here. But, more on that later.

Two of the machines would NOT take a value for cv35 (after about 10 or 15 attempts on each), which is vital for any indication output. I've got an email to Train Li, hopefully it's not a big issue... I tried different settings, and the disconnect trick, moving the machine to a different address, everything I could think of, but to no effect. These two problem Prodrives pump out 24vdc from the lantern pins all the time, and will not shut off. So, if anyone has a hint or two, please pass it on!

Anyway, here's another lame vid, demonstrating the results. Be sure to watch the outtake at the end... 






===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

send them back and let them fix/replace


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

Hey Cliff that looks pretty good. Reminded me of Christmas lights. I hope to use my NCE Switchkats and Mini panel to setup two passing sidings and automating 4 trains on the layout. Probably experiment over the winter learning macros for the mini panel. I haven't found much info for writing macros on the internet, have you?

Following your progress 
Steve


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Will do Greg, thanks. I'm waiting for Axel's acknowledgement.

Steve, yes they do! And I was, sort of apprehensively, setting aside a big chunk of time for learning the macros. I think I blew more time though on looking for step-by-step instructions than actually programming though, it was fairly straightforward. From the control station, after you get to the macro menu, you more or less follow the instructions. Once you plug your Procab into the setup jack on the MP, and the MP into the cab bus, it's easy to set up a channel that invokes the macro.

Now, that was just for switch line-ups, programmed into the control station. But If you're going to do the more advanced stuff (like loco control), please start a thread, I'd like to watch! 

Here's the resources I've found, if you don't already have them:

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-macros/nce-macro-system-specifications

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-mini-macro-panel

The latter has downloads for the MP manual, and the corrected version of the MP manual.

Thanks guys,
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

My application is admittedly very specific, but I thought I'd post my programming notes in case someone might find a section helpful. This is my version of breadcrumbs to myself, because I know I'll forget the details pretty quickly.

Some bits of the Prodrive programming, and all of the relay board programming, I've had to figure out by trial and error -- though, for the Prodrive, relying on the findings of Greg E. and Ron B. The NCE stuff in the middle is pretty straightforward, and their documentation is fine. 

BTW, if you want the full instructions I developed for the 15-channel relay board, just PM me. Nothing comes with it, and it takes a while to figure out. 

So, here goes. If you're seriously interested, you might want to just copy+paste it into your editor of choice, because the word wrapping and loss of indentation is gonna hose it all up. Or just PM me for the Word file.

===>Cliffy

=========================================


1.	ProDrives
a.	Purchasing
i.	The Prodrives must be pre-programmed for DCC from Train-Li, with DCC enabled and an address assigned. The NCE system cannot get them out of DC mode. The address can be changed later. 
ii.	Train-Li should check CV35 (lantern) for proper function. My application: It will be set to address 111 (for now; may change later). Power from the lantern pins should be off or on when accessory 111 is off or on.
iii.	Train-Li should check CV40 (direction) for proper function, e.g., being able to be changed. These will need to be set at installation time, but should be set to the default of 1 (normal) at first.
iv.	CV46 (speed) can be left at default of 12.​b.	The following uses an NCE Powerhouse system with Procab remote. 
c.	Go to Direct programming mode
i.	Connect the drive to the Program Track output from the NCE control unit.
ii.	Press PROG/ESC 4 times (until the USE PROGRAM TRK message appears) and press ENTER.
iii.	The Procab will display PROG TRK / 1=STD 2=CV 3=REG; press ENTER to go to the next screen.
iv.	The Procab will display PROG TRK / 4=PAGED 5=DIRECT; press 5 for Direct mode.
v.	Wait (~15 sec) until the Procab displays DIR MODE / CANNOT READ CV; press ENTER​d.	Set the Address
i.	If the Procab again displays DIR MODE / CANNOT READ CV, press ENTER again.
ii.	The Procab should display DIR MODE / SHORT ADDR: ###. 
iii.	Key in the short address and press ENTER. Note: I’ve had somewhat better luck keying in 3-digit addresses (e.g. 004 vs 4, or 012 vs 12).
iv.	The Procab should display ACTIVATE THIS ADDR? 1= YES.
v.	Get ready to disconnect one DCC lead from the prodrive.
vi.	Just after pressing 1 (for Yes), disconnect one lead for a couple of seconds, then reconnect.
vii.	The Procab will probably say SETUP ADDRESS / CAN NOT READ CV; press ENTER
viii.	If no CV programming is needed, press ENTER; then press the PROG/ESC button to return to the main menu.​e.	Continue to CV programming :
i.	Note: it will be about 5 ENTERS to get to where we need to be, but here’s the blow by blow.
ii.	When the Procab displays SETUP ADDRESS / LONG ADDR, press ENTER (don’t key in an address number)
iii.	When the Procab displays ACTIVATE THIS ADDR? 1= YES, press ENTER (don’t key in an address number)
iv.	When the Procab displays SET CFG? / ENTER=NO 1=YES, press ENTER (select NO). You could try to set the CV at this point, but the continuing menu takes you back through short & long address setting.
v.	When the Procab displays SET UP MOTOR CONTROL? 1=YES, press ENTER (inferred NO)
vi.	When the Procab displays SETUP FUNCTION MAPPING? 1=YES, press ENTER (inferred NO)
vii.	The Procab should now display PROG CV / ENTER CV NUM:​f.	Set the CV’s (optional):
i.	Alt CV’s for the Prodrive 
1.	CV35 = lantern contacts 
a.	1-255
b.	Same as Prodrive: will energize with one position
c.	Common address (111 on VTRR): energize all lanterns at once​2.	CV40 = direction
a.	1 = Normal
b.	4 = Reverse​3.	CV46 = speed
a.	12-44 
b.	12 is default; higher is faster
c.	For VTRR: 12 is ok, leave as-is​ii.	Key in CV number and ENTER
iii.	If the Procab displays PROG CV / CAN NOT READ CV, press ENTER
iv.	The Procab should display PROG CV / CV NUM ### =, where ### is the CV number you just selected; key in the value for this CV
v.	If the Procab displays PROG CV / CAN NOT READ CV, press ENTER
vi.	When finished with all CV setting, press ENTER; the Procab should go back to the PROG TRK menu.
vii.	Press the PROG/ESC button to return to the main menu.​g.	Testing
i.	Connect the Prodrive to normal track DCC 
ii.	Operational testing
1.	Press SELECT ACCY, and key in the newly-programmed address of the Prodrive.
2.	Press 1 for NORM; the Prodrive should either go to that position or stay there.
3.	Press 2 for REV; the Prodrive should go to the opposite position.
4.	Verify speed, if you changed CV46
5.	Verify direction, if you changed CV40​iii.	Indication testing
1.	Depending on how you programmed the lantern output, those terminals will either turn on when you throw the machine to one side or another (CV35=same as main address) or when a common accessory address is turned on or off
2.	When ON, the lantern pins will produce around 24v DC.
3.	Important note: the positive contact is inboard (toward the center f the box), negative is outboard.
4.	You can easily connect to these pins with a typical 2.5mm “JST” female connector, such as is used with R/C batteries. 
5.	With the cover open, connect an LED (with proper resistor) or incandescent lamp (of proper voltage) to the lantern pins. 
6.	For a single typical LED having ~3v forward voltage and 20mA, the resistor can be a single 1.2k ohm, or two 560 ohm resistors wired in series. 
7.	Operate the machine or accessory and verify proper on/off functionality.​h.	Indicator Notes
i.	For my application, the address for indicators is 111.
ii.	Prodrive lantern outputs will be energized with activation of accessory 111
iii.	1 = Normal = On; 2 = Rev = Off​ 
2. Macros
a.	The following refers to DCC macro programming in the Command Station. 
b.	The Procab should be plugged into the Powerhouse cab bus jack, with the system operating normally.
c.	Press the PROG/ESC button about eight times to get to the PROGRAM MACROS menu. Press ENTER.
d.	To set up a new macro:
i.	Press 1 (PROG)
ii.	At PROGRAM MACRO NUMBER, key in the number of the new macro, then ENTER.
iii.	The macro number is displayed. At ACCESSORY #, key in the address of the first accessory to manipulate, then ENTER.
iv.	The macro and accessory numbers are now displayed, with 1=N 2=R. Press 1 for normal direction, 2 for reverse direction.

Note: this direction will be affected by the side of the turnout that the motor is installed on, and what you decide is “normal” for the turnout. CV40 can be set to 4 (vs. 1) to swap forward and reverse, as understood by the Prodrive.

v.	As soon as you key in a direction for the first accessory, the menu will proceed to the next one, i.e., MAC ### / ACCESSORY #. Enter the number of the next accessory to manipulate, and ENTER. Enter 1 or 2 for direction.
vi.	Continue the above step for all other accessories to be affected by the macro.
vii.	When the last has been entered, and ACCESSORY # is displayed, press ENTER to end the sequence.​e.	To review a macro:
i.	Press 2 (REVIEW)
ii.	At REVIEW MACRO NUMBER, key in the number of the macro and ENTER.
iii.	The first accessory in the sequence, and its direction (N or R) is displayed.
iv.	Press ENTER to step through the sequence.​
3.	Mini-Panel
a.	Setup
i.	The Mini Panel (MP) should be connected on the cab bus, with the DCC system operating normally.
ii.	The Procab must be plugged directly into the SETUP jack on the MP.
iii.	The Procab should display NCE MINI-PANEL VERSION #.##. Press ENTER.
iv.	If not, try unplugging & replugging the cab bus, and wait a couple seconds.​b.	To set up a new input / channel: 
i.	The MP will display the Macro menu: 1=SETUP 2=REVIEW 3=TEST OPERATION.
ii.	Press 1 (SETUP)
iii.	At SETUP MINI PANEL, press 1 (INPUT)
iv.	At SETUP INPUT MENU / INPUT NUMBER, key in the number of the input channel to set up. These correspond with the 30 input contacts on the MP.
v.	At STEP NUMBER, key in the number of the step (for macro operation, a simple 1).
vi.	The MP will display INP: ## (the channel being set up), STEP: 1. 
vii.	Key in 2 (MACRO).
viii.	At MACRO NUMBER, key in the number of the macro to operate with this input channel.
ix.	The MP will display INP: ## (the channel being set up), STEP: 2. Press PROG/ESC to end the sequence to return to the main MP menu.​c.	To review an input / channel
i.	From the Macro menu, press 1 (REVIEW)
ii.	At REVIEW INPUT, key in the number of the macro to review.
iii.	The reviewer will step through each step of the input’s script. If only invoking a macro, the display will be INP: ## STEP:1 MACRO NUMBER: ### (where the last number is the macro you’re invoking with this input).
iv.	Press ENTER (to get to the END screen), and PROG/ESC to return to the main MP menu.​d.	To test an input / channel
i.	From the Macro menu, press 3 (TEST OPERATION)
ii.	At TESTING INPUT NUMER, key in the number of the input / channel to be tested. Press ENTER.
iii.	The MP will act as if that particular channel / input contact has been connected to the MP GND (ground) contact, i.e., emulating the pressing of a momentary switch between those contacts.
iv.	Press PROG/ESC to return to the main MP menu.​
4.	Wireless Relays 
a.	The system must be set up for mode #5, which involves the following:
i.	Relay 1 acts in Toggle behavior (press once for ON, press again for OFF)
ii.	Relays 2-15 act in Momentary behavior (press for ON, let go for OFF)​b.	Setting the mode:
i.	Clear the Memory: Press and hold the Learning button for about 6 seconds, until the LED turns off.
ii.	Pause for about 3 seconds.
iii.	Set the mode: Press the number 5 button.
iv.	Confirm: Press various buttons. Button 1 should act as a toggle; all others as momentary.​c.	For further reference, see my “15ch relay programming.docx” writeup.​


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Normally I can get the units out of DC mode by trying to set the cv (I seem to remember it is CV1) by doing the program and disconnect trick.

As long as you get the address to something else than zero, then you are in DCC mode and can set CV's.

It takes a bit of fiddling.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes Greg, and your discovery of that was great -- I followed your video precisely. But, these (apparently newer) Prodrives simply would not get out of DC mode, so I sent them back to have that done. After that, like you say, the cv's were adjustable (including CV1). Except for 2 units, which wouldn't take any value for CV35, and those are the ones heading back again.

I should point out that even after Train Li's setting an address for me, if I needed to change it I had to use your disconnect trick (see step D. vi. in the above).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, different versions have acted differently for me too. What is unbelievable in this day and age having a product that can only be programmed by a single manufacturer's DCC system, clearly not DCC compatible.

I have a couple of the newer ones here to experiment with, maybe I will discover another trick.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I have a couple of the newer ones here to experiment with, maybe I will discover another trick.
> Greg


Greg, I'd be so relieved if you had success on that... I've got myself painted into a corner here, and am soon to buy more switch machines, and I want to keep building on the Prodrive. So good luck, and I'll be very attentive!

A bit of an update. The main RC control box, with the mini-panel and the relay boards, will be powered via the DCC bus and Cab bus, respectively. The reasons I'm doing it this way is that I don't want to bring out a 110vac transformer; and, both those buses run across a perfect spot beneath my deck for this box to reside under.

For the relay board power, I tested a simple voltage regulator circuit to bring the ~21v DCC down to the required 12v DC. Here's the test setup, with DCC power coming in from the right.










The other investigation today was the remote for the relay board, because I need to figure out how to tie into its 15 buttons. 

To get it apart, you slide out the battery cover, and remove the two screws thereby exposed. Then the front and back can be carefully snapped apart. Fwiw, the interlock tabs are at 9, 12 and 3 o'clock. When snapping apart, be careful because there's nothing holding the board to the case parts. Here's a pic.










Each button has four pins, only two of which seem to be used. With the test system powered up, I held a jumper wire across the contacts of a particular button. Sometimes the traces on the board were a good indication of what is really connected. When connecting the proper pins, it emulated the button being pressed; and the chain reaction happened. That is, the corresponding relay audibly clicked; the Mini-Panel invoked the macro; the command station issued its commands to the various Prodrives; and the motors turned over. 

It was pretty cool!

So, the next big challenge will be hooking up 30 wires to this tiny board. Without melting anything down. I'll be wanting to use something with a disconnect, so the first thing I'll hunt for is an old-fashioned printer extension cable with that many wires ("Centronics" connectors come to mind). 

Thanks for viewing,
===>Cliffy

[edit] If there's a common for all the buttons, then only 16 wires would be needed. Then I could use a 25-pin printer extension cord for the connection.

[nuther edit] Yes! There's a common trace for all the buttons. On mine, it's the fat vertical one seen in between the upper right buttons, snaking down and disappearing. It's not consistent as to what side of the buttons it connects to, so a bit of a map will need to be drawn, via testing. I'm sure other units will vary. But, the main thing is that only 16 wires (plus 2 power wires) will be needed for this board. Not sure what I'll do with the antennas, other than extend them and leave them as-is within their respective boxes.

[yet another edit]

Here is the control equipment board I've been designing, for the three relay boards and the one mini-panel. 










Dash-line stuff is on the other side. Still need to route the "grounds" from the mini-panel (I don't think they're actually grounds, are they?) to the (rear-side) copper tapes, which will serve as the common for all the relay inputs. 

This board is intended to be 11x13 inches, clear acrylic, probably 3/16" thick. I'll either drill it using printed self-adhesive film, or have it laser cut (if I can get a cheap enough quote, just starting on that).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I got a quote for laser-cutting the panel, and it seemed pretty good. So I uploaded this file (the border is 23.75" square) to the service, which includes the 3 blank back panels for the switch station boxes. The total for all 4 pieces was $68 +shipping. (Sure, I probably should have made them myself, but this saves me a few freezing hours in the garage! )










The service was through Pololu.com, a major distributor of RC & robotics gear. 
http://www.pololu.com/product/749

You upload your 2d cad file, pick the material, and they send you a quote. 

C


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I applied the "stickers" to the control boxes today, here's a few pics and comments.

The boxes (from prowaterparts.com) had the raised letters "IP65" on one corner, which I pared away with a scalpel.










The prints came from echodgraphics.com, and are transparent and laminated. They seem pretty durable; and ink didn't budge as I burnished the plastic to the box. 

The single button was a test for whether I could drill the decal and box without chips going in between the two. All went well. The small blue dots show where the buttons go. I'll only install buttons for locations currently having switch machines, about 1/2 of the switches at present.










To get them on, I trimmed the top edge and folded back about 1" of the backing paper along that edge. (leaving the rest of the backing paper on). I aligned and pressed on the top edge. Then, gradually pulling the backing paper away from the rear, rubbed down the decal onto the box.

Here's all 3 of the boxes. The Upper two cover everything; the center one overlaps the others.










The contents are pretty sparse, consisting of (the guts of) the remote, pushbuttons, and a battery holder. The old printer cable is to be able to separate the cover from the box, which isn't really needed but what the heck. 










There's far more space inside than I need, but these boxes were chosen for their face size. And also price, IP65 rating, and wall thickness (about 1/8"). 

The buttons want a 33/64" bit, so that had to be ordered. Next, besides button mounting, is mounting the guts and wiring things up. 

===>Cliffy


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Very nice! I love the graphics on your boxes.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

That certainly looks very nice Cliff. Keep up the good work! Looking forward to seeing this project come together

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The 'hack' of the remotes went much fairly well, and here's some more notes and pics.

The buttons on the board are all wired together on their common pin, but the position of that pin varies. Sometimes the upper pin(s), sometimes the lower pin(s). One remote's board was different (bought from an alternate vendor), and had 2 pins on top, two below; the other two boards had only 1 pin above, one below. 

So, first thing was to make a sketch of where the common pins were, using the meter on continuity check. Mine makes a little beep, so that made it easy. Then, for each printer extension cable (which were all of different makes) I made a list of pin number to color. 

After stripping and tinning the leads, I soldered color #1 to button #1, on the side opposite the common, and worked my way through the 15 buttons. The last two cable wires (#24 & #25) I soldered to opposite ends of the button array, to the common side. I used a small pencil-type iron, and only heated up the pad on the board enough to let the tinning on the wire flow. 

With each wire, I checked continuity like this. One lead from the meter was connected to pin #25 of the connector, and the other lead to the connector of the pin corresponding with the button involved. A press of the button resulted in a beep from the meter, meaning all was ok.










Here's a closeup of a finished board. The unused wires were bundled up for possible future use. 










Here's the board and connector, with the new battery holder, mounted to the back panel. The board was screwed down with #4 sheet metal screws and spacers cut from 1/4" nylon tubing. 










And, mounted in the box bottom.










That's it for today; we have Christmas round #3 this afternoon, with the extended family. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I installed the buttons today... 










and wired the common sides of them:










After these remote boxes are done, I'll work on the main wiring project, which is the the main board. Here it is with components mounted. 










The holes are mostly for wires passing to the back side, to keep things cleaner on the front. The three components on the bottom are the RC receiver/relay boards, and at the top right is the NCE Mini Panel.

The rectifier / regulator board (upper left) converts 21v DCC to 12v DC, to power the receiver/relay boards. This DCC input, along with an in and out for the cab bus, are the only wiring connections involved. 

More later,
CJ


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you know what current is being drawn by the relays?

I would put a heat sink on the TO220 unit to keep it cool. you are dropping 9 volts and at 100ma that is about 1 watt. Any more than that would require a heat sink.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dan, good point. I just measured, and any given relay pulls .05A @ 12v, so .6 watts. 

Under normal conditions, only 2 coils would be held simultaneously (and one of them only momentarily), maybe 3 if an operator mistake were made. So, 1.2 to 1.8 watts. I've got a heat sink and "arctic" adhesive, so I'll add that.

Thanks!
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Finishing up the remote boxes today.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Maybe I'm missing something here. Looking at the panel, I would assume that the intent is that you press one of the black buttons and all of the turnouts align accordingly. Does this mean that some of the turnouts with no buttons (e.g., 16, 17, 18, etc) are strictly manual?

If that is the case, you do recognize that you could accomplish this same panel to throw a series of turnouts with a hand full of diodes creating a matrix.


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## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

toddalin said:


> ...you do recognize that you could accomplish this same panel to throw a series of turnouts with a hand full of diodes creating a matrix.


 The turnouts are DCC controlled, hence the use of the NCE Mini-Panel macros to throw multiple turnouts at once, activated by a single remote button via the relay board. The panels are totally wireless, which would be rather difficult to achieve with the traditional diode matrix approach.

I think Cliff's done a really neat job, expanding on some suggestions I'd made earlier regarding the remote relays and Mini-Panel.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The turnouts may be dcc _controlled_, but if they are Piko, ultimately, they still use the same method to power the motor to "throw the bar." A wire matrixed into the "bar motor" via diodes should not interfere with the working of the dcc and its interaction with the throw bar motor.

But you are certainly correct that this affords wireless control, and is very .


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks very much, Todd and Nick, for commenting. I was getting a little lonely!

Todd, for traditional rail power, you're absolutely right. A diode matrix is the way to go. Naptowneng and I will probably be adapting this wireless approach for his layout sometime soon, and I would sure be grateful for your feedback on that effort. 

But for DCC, Nick helped me understand that these wireless relays could trigger the Mini-Panel inputs -- which fire off the scripts that control the machines. That approach saved me a pile of wiring, because the DCC-enabled switch machines just tie into the rails.

Also, Nick alerted me to these wireless relays in the first place, and I think they can be applied to many things: DCC, DC, voodoo, parrot training, whatever. What I was fuzzy on was how to hack the remotes and create a graphic replacement for them, so that's been the current focus of this thread. 

What would be fun would be to make the same sort of system, but with the relays working thru a diode matrix. Or something else. Also, I think it's obvious that I picked boxes that are huge, so another emphasis might be (Nick, here comes the hint) a more miniature graphic remote. 

Again, thanks gentlemen, 
Best regards and happy new year to you!

>>>Cliffy


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Cliffy,

Will you install "manual" switch stands (that are thrown when the switch machine operates the points) or will the machines be the only thing at each switch? You have colored lights on or near the machine that show the switch alignment, correct?

I'm fiddling with my first switch/switch machine now and was toying with the idea of mounting the switch machine on one side of the track and a "manual" switch stand on the other, mainly for appearances. But I also like the idea of looking at a switch stand to see which way the points are aligned... it might be easier to see in full sun or from a distance, and it seems kinda cool


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Riderdan,

The Prodrive switch machines can't be back-driven, so they have to be electrically thrown. Is yours different? Or, maybe you're describing a "dummy" stand that just rotates for indication? That would be very cool. What products are you using?

My current plan is to use only LED's. And you're right, they'll not be super visible in direct sunlight. Your manual stand should be more visible in the day, and would certainly be more realistic.


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

CliffyJ said:


> Hi Riderdan,
> 
> The Prodrive switch machines can't be back-driven, so they have to be electrically thrown. Is yours different? Or, maybe you're describing a "dummy" stand that just rotates for indication? That would be very cool. What products are you using?
> 
> My current plan is to use only LED's. And you're right, they'll not be super visible in direct sunlight. Your manual stand should be more visible in the day, and would certainly be more realistic.


Cliffy,

First, Happy New Year! 

I was thinking of "dummy" switch stands which would be moved into the correct position by the switch machine. I have a couple of the Ozark Miniatures harp stands to mess around with. Since the throw is linear (in line with the point throw bar), it doesn't seem like it would add much resistance to the whole setup--which might not be the case with switch stands that use a rotary motion.

These stands have a tab on the arm that fits into detents in the harp, which is supposed to "latch" them into position. The arm is pushed against ther side of the harp by a rubber bushing at the pivot point--which allows you to move the arm enough to clear the detent and throw the switch. I assembled one of mine backward, so that the pin never engages the detent. So when the switch machine throws the points (from the other side) it also moves the stand so it indicates the correct direction. 

I haven't completely decided if I'm going to do this outdoors yet, as harp stands aren't prototypical for the era/locale I'm modeling. But it's an interesting idea, I think


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

When I installed my LGB 1600 turnouts I put the indicator lanterns on them. These throw with the turnout to provide an indication of its orientation.

Unfortunately, in the real world, they also "gum up" and add greatly to the resistance of the turnout. If I already had a 1201 dpdt mounted to the turnout, I was lucky if the turnout would _throw all the way consistantly._ Whale Hail! I was lucky if those _without_ dpdts would throw all the way consistently.

Ultimately, I disconnected the throw mechanisms on all of them, but they remain in place for the lanterns that still work.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Rider, and HNY back at you. That OM harp stand would be perfect for me, because that's what my prototype (the V&T) used. So thanks for that link. I might consider casting the bits out of epoxy (not from OM's parts of course, but from my own models), simply because I'm sure to step on them all the time. Still, that's not a bad price. Hmmm... 

Hi Todd, thanks for your LGB story. I'm putting SPDT microswitches into my Prodrives, and so far they don't seem to add much more work to the internal servos. Unless I'm mistaken, they work on a quite different approach than the LGB or Piko drives which, from what I've seen, have that interesting coil-driven limited-revolution motor inside. The Prodrives, with their RC-type geared-down servos, have quite a bit of torque. It would be interesting to compare the two in that regard.

Train Li has optional lanterns, but they're too euro for my taste. So I'm planning on this LED approach, which only lights them all when a button is pushed on one of the three remote boxes.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the prodrives are driven by a small gear reduction motor, way more force than the low power "motors" in the lgb which are more like solenoids See Dave Bodnar's page for a nice picture. 

http://www.trainelectronics.com/art...hController/Part_2_turnout_motors/part_II.htm

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Greg, thanks for the confirmation and that link, I'd not seen that.

I started the common wiring for the main control board today. Didn't get far, but I laid the "trace" tapes. This is thin self-adhesive copper tape, sometimes sold in association with EMI reduction. Anyway, I laid the stuff and punched the holes through. 



















I was about to start wiring, and learned two things. First, I didn't have a wire stripper for #22 wire, so I need to get one. Way too many wires to do otherwise. 

Second, the relay terminal blocks aren't arranged like what I was led to believe. In my case, terminal B is common, A is NO, instead of vice-versa (as in the pic I'd found on the 'net). No real change in the wiring, except that it just feels really wrong to hook up the NO to the common trace, etc. Have to do it though, because the holes are all there, and no one will know or care except me. Well, and now you. Maybe.

The point of the trace tape is to be able to insert the common wires and solder them to the tape (on the back of the board), in a somewhat neater fashion then other methods. At least that's my theory, but we'll see.

CJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's amazing how much work it takes when you have a lot of switches. This picture represents the wiring and air control for 4 switches, I think I have about 30.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

I wish you the best with your switches. My experience with the LGB switches was similar to Todd's. I've gone completely to manuals and I'm not ready to start a new system.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Chuck, and I understand why you've gone all-manual. Like Greg said, it's amazing how much work goes into the setup --- and maintenance, I'm sure.

Nice board Greg. Do you have 30 switches, or 30 of those boards? Regardless, lots of effort!

You'll have more reliable operation with the air system, but hopefully the Prodrives will be reasonably maintainable and last for a while. I'll probably need to make covers, like Ron B. did. We'll see.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

30 switches, and about 4 of that exact board in one housing, and about 3 more in different locations... most of the boards are in the yard, all switches are remote control.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg, your arrangement sounds very effective and durable. Having some pneumatics in my background, I'd sure be interested in seeing in operation it sometime. 

Pecking away at this, here's today's small step. The common wires are all soldered into the tape, which is on the rear of the board. 



















I saw this copper tape method in an article on diode matrix wiring for turnout control, really interesting stuff:
http://www.trainweb.org/SunriseDivision/handouts/Build_a_Diode_Matrix.pdf

I was relieved that the soldering went well. The tape took the solder and didn't pull away, and the plex didn't melt or anything. 

>>>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Quite a project Cliff! 

I'm watching with interest.

Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's kind of you Greg, I appreciate the encouragement!

Today was more wiring of the main board. I ran out of red #22 (signal from relays to the Mini Panel), so what's shown is about 2/3 of that. Otherwise, the blue is signal common, yellow is DCC in, and black/white is the DC feeds to the relay boards.



















I'm probably repeating myself badly, but I think I need to clarify one minor point. Certain Mini Panel inputs have 2 or 3 relays triggering them, because the associated box's pushbuttons perform the identical function. For example, there are buttons on each remote box to light up the future switch indicators, so their corresponding relays are all wired to the same MP input. Similar for the "Mainline" button on each box, which will fire off the same macro that will align switches for back-and-forth mainline operation.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

In a rare instance of getting off the couch during evening hours, I finished the red signal wiring (relays back to the Mini-Panel inputs).



















Not very pretty, but ok enough I think.

Next step, mounting this panel in its box, and making the cable connections.

Thanks for viewing, I know this is a long slog...

>>>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here is how the connections went. 



















The DCC connection is a dual-post banana jack, compatible with the same jacks that Greg E. demonstrates on his site, which I'm using in all my DCC bus connections. 

I couldn't find a decent and affordable waterproof connector for the RJ12 cab bus connectors, so I just stuffed them all through a gland feedthrough (with RTV spooged in). This was my first experience with an RJ12 / whatever crimper, and it was cool to see that it really cut, stripped and crimped properly. I felt starry sparks coming off my bald head. 

The gray RJ12 is for programming the mini panel; the black ones are for cab bus. I'll need to come up with a drip-proof stuffing box or something to house those couplers. 

BTW, except for the switch machine tie-in's to their adjacent rails, these are the only connectors involved for this turnout control system. I bring that up because sometimes I need to remind myself why I'm doing all this, haha!

Next step: programming.

===>Cliffy


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Not pretty? It B-E-A-utiful! Can't wait to see it work.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

When you were dreaming this all up Cliff, did ya get any sleep??!!

Yur bud!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Skeeter, thanks for that. Sometimes I've no idea how far out in left field I am, so your kind words are much appreciated. I'll put up some pics, maybe a video, of the programming / operation progress (on the workbench).

And thanks Dirk. I gotta hand Nick the credit for conveying the relay opportunity, but otherwise, yeah. I have lost some sleep, now that you mention it. I've dreamt about a big circuit board down the hill, that I was supposed to put in a waterproof box. And either I can't find the board, or my box is too small... Then my mother-in-law is pounding me for the trains not running... I'm betting you'll have those too, if you haven't already, haha!

Ooops, TMI!

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Just getting to where I am now....more than a short list of sleep.....less nites!!!! Has to do with climbing out on a limb...with a sharp saw!! Ha ha....
It's OK .... tho....I enjoy the results!!

....TMI....not to fret....Buddy!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The programming went fairly smoothly. It involved setting the Prodrive CV's, setting the mini-panel inputs to invoke certain macros, and inputting the macros to the control system. 










Here's a rough video of the main components. 






Though I don't have all the switch machines in hand (some are on back order, and a bunch are part of a future upgrade), all the control hardware is in place, the macros are all inputted, and the wireless relays all check out. So when I get the machines that are on order, all that's needed is to set their cv's. For the later batches, the main job is installing a few more route buttons on the remote boxes, and hooking them up to the wires prepared for them. 

Next step, indicators. 

Thanks for viewing,
Cliff


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,
That is a great explanation video and your wiring is beautiful. 

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Came out great and uber cool!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, what nice compliments Tommie & Todd, thanks a lot!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm moving onto the indicator stage, and here's a few pics / comments at the mockup stage.

The LED's are "Superflux" "Piranha" 5mm 4-chip types, and for testing I purchased a selection of colors from lighthouseleds.com:

http://lighthouseleds.com/led-compo...r-flux-leds-1/superflux-piranha-5mm-leds.html

If you get these, note that the polarities for all their 2v ones (red, amber, orange, yellow, gold) are reversed. So if they don't work, swap the polarity. I've notified the company, and they've acknowledge that the factory had an oopsie (and that I was the first person who'd caught it, haha!) The LED has 4 pins, but 2 are redundant.

Here's one with a 2' long set of leads and a 2-pin JST / RC battery type connector. This happens to fit the pins on my Prodrive "lantern" output. 










Here's the mockup. I should point out that a regular 3-wire servo connector, with the middle wire clipped, works well with the DCC power pins on the Prodrive. 










I printed the LED housings at Shapeways, and will spray them dark brown. They're smaller versions of those little over-the-throw-bar covers common on LGB and Train Li turnouts. 



















The LED has a light press fit into the housing, and I'll fill them from beneath with RTV. They'll be finally located & screwed down at some later date. For now, I'll just produce the "kits."

A last point about the "Piranha's": they come in various colors of "candle flicker," which look pretty neat when grouped together.
http://lighthouseleds.com/5mm-orange-amber-candle-flickering-led-super-bright.html

===>Cliffy


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

Cliffy, this is an incredible project, beautifully executed. 

I enjoyed following this build. I'd be satisfied just to have a few DCC controlled switch motors available on my JMRI phone app. Being a roundy-rounder, I currently use manual labor to switch the the seldom needed tracks.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very kind of you Mike, thanks very much! 
I'm glad if this helps you explore more possibilities for yourself.
Which DCC system do you use?


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

CliffyJ said:


> Which DCC system do you use?


I have a Digitrax 8 amp DCS, and an 8 amp booster powering separate sections. A have a lot of different manufacturer's throttles. I like the MRC sound decoders. Motor and sound for only $65. They sound decent if you get a better speaker. 

I've had digitrax since late 90s or around 2000 in G scale. In my HO days of the 80s-90s, I used Keller Engineering (On-Board system) before DCC became standardized by NMRA. And I ended up with a Batamax, better, but not compatable!

I hated programming and operating with the Digitrax cab (controller). Then I discovered JMRI software, and I use an old notebook running Windows XP, connected to the loconet via USB with a Digitrax PR3.

I downloaded the Android app on my cell phone, called engine driver by JMRI. It talks to the Loconet computer through my home WiFi. The difference in operation is night and day! All the functions buttons are labeled in English and available on the screen. Locos can be called up by their name, model, photo, etc. instead of just their address. And programming using the PC makes it understandable, and easy to see/change all the capabilities of the throttle and sound card.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the background, Mike. I haven't taken the JMRI plunge yet, but need to. Does it allow making up routes that can throw a number of switches? 

Also, do you have switch machines already? If not, you might be interested in pneumatics, e.g., a Digitrax controller with solenoid valves, like Greg did. If you wanted a remote panel, you could use a wireless relay to trigger the controller(s). But you probably want to operate everything from your Android, correct?


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

JMRI will do all sorts of automation, lot of stuff I haven't delved into. Just the programming page, and the fact that I can use my phone as an easy wireless cab are worth the price of admission! (FREE!!!)

The android app can address each turnout, you can label them any way you want, and will indicate open/closed. And you can set up routes, and switch them on the phone.

I have a couple of the old Aristocraft slow throw switch motors, they are not very reliable. And I bought the cheaper Digitrax 4 switch stationary decoder which requires me to add some kind of relay circuit to control that type of motor because of the current draw. As a roundy-rounder, I just manually throw a switch ever so sparingly.

I would definitely just rely on the android app, and not have a separate panel for my limited operations. But I do think it's cool what you have done!


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

http://jmri.org/

What is JMRI?
The JMRI project is building tools for model railroad computer control. We want it to be usable to as many people as possible, so we're building it in Java to run anywhere, and we're trying to make it independent of specific hardware systems.

JMRI is intended as a jumping-off point for hobbyists who want to control their layouts with a computer without having to create an entire system from scratch.

You can manage your locomotive rosters and easily program your decoders using DecoderPro®. You can build control panels, set up signaling, configure operations and control your layout using PanelPro. Going beyond the basics, you can use Logix to automate your layout's behavior, interface with X10 and Insteon systems to control your layout room's lights and write scripts to extend the capabilities of the system. OperationsPro™ lets you create manifests that route cars across your railroad from shipper to receiver, and provide train crews with operating instructions.

Donate to JMRI As an open source project, JMRI is evolving in many directions at once. You can get involved at many levels:

Learn about JMRI (check out the online help, DecoderPro manual, FAQs and clinics )
Kick the tires ( download JMRI, install it on Windows, Mac OS X or Linux, connect it to your layout )
Share your experiences with others ( join or browse the JMRI Users Yahoo Group )
Help extend and develop it it (look under the hood, get the source, join or browse the JMRI-Developers mailing list ).
Whatever it is that you choose to do with JMRI, and however you get involved, welcome to our community!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the further food for thought, Mike. Sounds like you have it nailed!

Man, I need to dump my crackberry....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I had a setback today, with the indicator project. It occurred to be to double check the visibility of the LED's outside, so I set up a few colors of them on a breadboard and took them outdoors.

The good news is that most of the colors were sort of visible in daylight. Not what I hoped for, but ok enough to move forward. As expected from the specs, the blue doesn't show up well, but I wanted to see for myself. I'll avoid using that color. 

The problem is with the viewing angle. I could have sworn these had a near 180-degree pattern, but nope, more like 100. Sure enough, the specs said 100-120 (50-60 from vertical). Which means you can't really see them until you're fairly close.

So... back to the drawing board. Since I can't find a bright 180-degree component-level LED in this small package, I'm considering a housing redesign for 2 LEDs.










This would get to about a 160 view angle, as long as you're looking down the track, or within ~50 degrees from track centerline. I don't want to add LED's at the ends of the ties, that would be getting really carried away, even for me.

For even more visibility, the thing could be widened to accept 2 pairs of LEDs. But, that's 4x 20ma, and I have no idea if the lantern outputs from the Prodrive switch machines can handle 80 ma. 

Dan, any thoughts on that? If I hook up 80ma worth of LED's to the lantern pins, and it works without messing things up, am I in the clear? Or has a limit been published that you know of?

One more thing, if all 26 of my switches light off their indicators at the same time (which was the plan), they would be drawing the following from the rails (approx):
- One LED per switch: .5A
- Two " " " : 1A
- Four " " " : 2A

For a momentary occasional indication, I guess 2A isn't that awful...

[edit]

While it's probably bordering on the absurd, here's one version of a 4-direction indicator.










Due to height constraints, it has to stay low of course, and that means the lateral view gets chopped some by the rails. Still, it would be about 145-deg lateral view (and about 180 in-line w/ the track).

[another edit]

Since I'm going nuts, might as well go all the way. This design has a lateral view angle of about 155 deg.










The big question would still be if the switch machines could handle the current.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff, you should consider the surface mount type of LEDs, dispersion angle is usually greater than 120 degrees and some have almost 180 degree angles.

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg, I'll look again. The only single SMD's I've seen didn't have near the lumens these did, but I didn't look all that hard.

[edit]

I've not been able to locate an SMD source that offers the brilliance and color selection as these 4-chip Piranha types. Thanks for prodding me to look better though. And if you see something better, please let me know.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks to Dan's testing, I learned that the Prodrive lantern outputs can handle 100ma. So 4 led's can be used, even if wired in parallel. But, he pointed out that if I wired them in series, the current would stay at 20ma (vs. 80). 

I figured that the led's would be 1/4 as bright in that scenario, but no. I set up a side-by-side test with 4 wired in parallel and 4 in series, and the brightness was the same. Actually a little dimmer in parallel, because the resistor value wasn't perfectly matched to the theoretical drop needed. Again, I'm using 4 20ma / 3v led's here, with a test supply of 12v. For the parallel, I used 470 ohm resistors on each; on the serial circuit, no resistors were used.










[Test results deleted by CJ, due to a messed up meter and setup...]

Anyway, here's the current design.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Whether in series or parallel, the led with a dropping resistor will limit the voltage to around 3 volts (really what the spec says). With 4 in series rated at around 3 volts, you should have more than 12 volts to test to get full brightness.
Some leds are 3.1 or more so I would use 14 volts for testing.

Perhaps your leds are 10 ma units.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff, won't derail here, but your results and conclusions about the current and the connections are not exactly right, but the explanation would just derail the thread. Let's talk separately or by email... Ohms law does work, and it should have been more current in parallel. On the configuration, series is the best connection for you. The variation in brightness you saw is a result of the error in the setup.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I just noticed that this thread has headed off in a different direction.

If LED brightness is the issue, you can increase that significantly using the same LEDs and the same average curent by pulsing the LEDs.
Some very basic info here:
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/led/pulse.htm


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I'm not at all surprised that I'm missing things here, so thanks very much for your help.

Just to clarify...

On the parallel circuit, I should have put in one 120 ohm resistor on a common positive leg. But I didn't have a 1-watt version. So, I put in single 470 ohm resistors for each LED, after splitting form the common leg.

Here's a pic, with the parallel circuit on top, series below.










Even though this is way tangential, I'd like to get this right, so feel free to offer corrections.

Dan, the packages & web site all say 20ma, but who knows. 


CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg's been helping me to see that there's something fishy in the setup. Please disregard the current readings I've posted; I've got a new meter coming. 

Furthermore, after more research I've come to understand that these LED's I've been using are not 4-chip, but just really bright 1-chippers. The 4-chip ones are much more expensive, and pull 80ma. These ones I'm using though (from ledlightouse) are comparable in brightness, yet they only draw 20ma. 

Anyway, all seems full steam ahead for a 4-led indicator, wired in series, and hopefully drawing only ~20ma. Here's the current indicator design, which has room now for a largish resistor.










Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The earlier testing was faulty, so in case someone wants to actually learn something from this thread, I got rid of some of the junk results. Sorry for the red herrings. 

Using an input voltage of 19.4v, a new multimeter, resistors on both circuits, adjusted resistor values, and a photometer, here are the results.

Parallel: 
Resistor: 220 Ω
Current: 72.4	mA
LED volts: 3.1 avg (measured at each LED)
Brightness: 225 Lux (@1')
20.9	Candela (total)
5,225	MCD (avg per LED)

Series 
Resistor: 470 Ω
Current: 18.1	mA
LED volts: 2.6 avg (measured at each LED)
Brightness: 230 Lux (@1')
21.37	Candela (total)
5,342	MCD (avg per LED)

As Dan & Greg said, the series circuit draws 1/4 the current as the parallel. But, I'm pleased to see that the brightness is about the same. 

The specs for the white LED's say 12-15k MCD (millicandela), so notice that the values I measured (and converted to MCD) were quite a lot less. Still, the total (21 candela) is the brightness of 21 candles, so pretty good for 20ma. 

I'll post when I get the bits and pieces in, and make up some assemblies.

Cliff


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Note that with the lower current draw you only need a 1/4 watt resistor as you are dropping 7 volts at 18.1 ma for .12 watts with the leds in series.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good point Dan, thanks. 

Here's what the schematic currently is.










[I edited out more faulty results; Greg pointed out that one or more led's in the chain, damaged in earlier experiments, were throwing things off.]

Using fresh amber leds (2v) and a 680 ohm resistor, I carefully hooked it all up to a ProDrive lantern connector. All seems to work fine. The setup pulled 17.6ma. 

Some of the color leds have less brightness rating, with these said to produce 8-12cd (candela) (at 20ma). Factoring in for reduced current (17.6/20 * 8000), I'd hope for at least 7k cd. But, I measured 56 lux (at 1 foot, which converts to 5.2 cd -- for four leds, not one. 

That's about 1/6th the min brightness in the spec. So I decided to measure some other colors.










The bottom line is interesting. None of the 2v led's are close to their brightness rating. Green is close, but blue is the best. Odd. I didn't have a set of 4 unmolested whites to test.

These LED's are from ledlighthouse.com. So, I just sent them an inquiry on why this big of a discrepancy.

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A bit of update, on the indication front. 

The LED supplier didn't have anything to share with me, on why my brightness measurements where so much lower than what their specs said. 

However, the proprietor (Nick, at ledlighthouse.com) said that "it's always better to drive leds by current, rather than voltage." So he recommended a 20ma current limiter. They cost a little over a buck apiece, but at least they don't need more room than a 1/2 watt resistor.

I bought some, and also the bulk of my leds. Today I ran through each color I cared about, using 4 led's in series with the current limiter and a protection diode. Here's the results.










These show that even with the current limiter (vs. resistors), the fresh led's are still performing much lower than advertised, especially in the 2-volt ones (red, yellow). The whites are around half; green a third. Oddly. the blue is outperforming the specs. 

So, I doubt anyone else will benefit from all this, but I thought I'd post all this in the interest of following through.

For me, bottom line is that they still seem bright enough. And I like the current limiters, because they ensure the led's get their max current, without fiddling with resistor values for different colors or supply voltages.

Best,
Cliff


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, not expert, but my understanding is that if you are putting the LEDs in series they will share just 20ma. If they were in parallel then they'd each get 20ma. Which would explain the dimness of the LEDs.

LED calculator: http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/ledcalc.php


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Jim, nor am I and that's what I originally thought -- that if they shared the current, their brightness would be cut by the same percentage. But that's not what I'm hearing, or at least interpreting, here and even from my led supplier. Should probably just hook up individual ones (vs 4) and see how bright they are.


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## Beddhist (Dec 17, 2013)

No, think about it: if they are in series then the current is the same for all of them, because it hasn't got anywhere else to go. If you wire them in parallel then the current splits and only parts of it go through each LED.

Cliff: I don't know what you use for a light meter, but I suspect that it measures different light frequencies differently. Perhaps the specs of the instrument tell you more?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ooooh. Good point, I'll check.

[edit]
Great catch Beddhist, the meter is very sensitive to color. After correcting for wavelength, the red and green are only half as bright as they need to be. Yellow-gold still about a quarter. The really wild led is still blue, which after correction is putting out 8 times the candela that the spec says it should at 20ma.

This is a brand new light meter that I bought for tests like this. I just sent the vendor some questions on if I'm using it right, or if it's the proper tool for this, etc.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Cliff,

If you read up about measuring brightness of LEDs you will find that this is not easy.
It's not like taking a multimeter, holding a probe against a wire and measuring voltage.
Forone the light meter has to be calibrated to measure the light output of LEDs which the typical "run-of-the-mill" one won't be. Then the measurement technique has to be correct.
Inexpensive LEDs, even of the same batch, will vary quite a bit in intensity even under the same electrical conditions. The spec would typically give you the minimum output with not necessarily the maximum specified.

Knut


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Point taken Knut. 

However, I've corrected for the specified wavelength, am averaging over several led's, am measuring at the proper location for their pattern. And am still not even close to the MINIMUM candela specified. 

I don't accept "it's all voodoo, so don't bother." So I've sent emails to the vendor of the LED's and manufacturer of the meter, asking for some sort of meaningful clues, such as how to improve / correct my testing method.

In the end, I'll make do with what they put out.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, I sure took a side track on that LED thing. Must have been a wintertime cabin-fever deal.

But at long last, after finishing a bunch of infrastructure projects, I was able to get back to track, specifically, finishing the switch control project. 

Today I first replaced all the steel screws on the switch machines with SS ones (#4 x 1/4), and made up all their pigtails. I found that a standard male servo connector fits perfectly onto the bare electrical prongs (the middle wire isn't used). These were made from a bunch of cheap servo extension cables I bought on Ebay I think. Here is the finished pigtail with the two wires and ring terminals soldered on.










Installation was pretty easy. After removing the manual switch machine, I screwed the ring terminals to the nearest rail clamps.










Then the switch machine was screwed on. 










The installation of the main control box consisted of making a shelf for it, running a DCC power line to it, and hooking it up to the cab bus. 

Aside from a couple turnouts that need further investigation, I'm still in shock that it's all basically working. The remote boxes talk to the control box relays, which trigger various "scripts" via the NCE mini-panel. Those signals go thru the rails, commending the one or more switches involved to align themselves in accordance with the initial remote box button being pressed.

Tomorrow, debugging.

Cliff


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