# Jet fire attributed to LI ion battery



## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...story.html


FYI


----------



## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jerry 

Given the power requirements for a commercial jet aircraft while it is on the ground is about a BRAZILLION times more than what we need in our locomotives, I do not see the relevance. Unless ones live under a large rock, we all know that LiOn batteries have significant heat issues compared to other technologies. So.... an extremely large LiOn battery catches fire under large current draw equates to WHAT in the context of our 5Ah 24 volt batteries used in large scale trains???? 

To me, this is like comparing the hazard of the boiler pressure of a gauge 1 steam locomotive [35-75 PSI] to a full sized mainline locomotive at 350 PSI or a water tube boiler on a ship operated at 700PSI. 

Please explain your point... I must be very dense


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Doc, it looks to me like Jerry's post was for informational reason (FYI). 

Nothing specific was mentioned. 

As for Lion Batteries, we have them in our phones, laptops, battery powered drills and who know what else. 

I stick the Nica battery for my old drill in the battery charger and leave it for days. 

My new drill has Lithium battery and I'll not leave it to charge un-intended for sure.


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

All it means Jim, is that we're not out of the woods on this kind of technology. The way I would look at it is, given how strict FAA regulations are regarding batteries, if it can happen on a plane, the likelihood is higher elsewhere. For sure, the battery/charger combinations we buy for our hobby are NOT highly engineered together...as they are in planes or laptops or cars. In effect, we just buy cells which are welded together with some overcharge/undercharge sensors on them (if you get good ones) and hook em up to someone else's charger. 

Always remember that risks are always increased by increasing the energy density. The reason we like Li Ion batteries is precisely for that reason...but do we really recognize the increased risk we are taking on? I'm pretty flabbergasted that a 787 would have such a fire...especially since it's the first electrically powered (not hydraulically powered) airplane. And since I don't know how one "puts out" a Li Ion battery that's on fire, it's even more dangerous. 

MORE....it turns out this is the fifth reported incident of this battery burning. During the development of the plane, one of the test aircraft had the same battery go poof. Another aircraft had it's power buss catch fire. Several aircraft in commercial service had fires from this battery...and this was after the FAA "clamped down" and put in more severe safety measures for Boeing to meet during development. I'm still waiting to read the first story about a Tesla in a bad car accident.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, it's sort of interesting, but really not relevant on this forum unless the battery was of a size and capacity and brand we are likely to use. 

I could likewise post on an antique steam engine blowing the boiler, or similar... interesting, but not directly relevant in my opinion. I have had a cell phone melt down a battery and a laptop... but I would not think to post it on a train forum. 

Yeah, a Tesla will go up in smoke some time... just does not need to be posted here... especially with the search problems and the post ordering problems. 


Greg


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I totally disagree Greg.


This post is info for those people that don't want anything to do with news about anything. 


I'm sure there are people out there that know absolutely nothing about Lithium batteries causing melt downs of Laptops and phones, let along catching their trains and houses on fire.


So they go out and buy a lithium battery and a charger, bring it home, set the battery to charge and go to bed thinking it will be fully charged by morning.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Completely cool Randy, it's a forum and we can each have our own opinions. 

I believe there are people out there who know nothing about Li-Ion battery dangers, although on this forum, I believe this has been hashed to death several times, but not really recently. 

But I do believe (actually I know) there is a difference between what is in the plane and what people use in their trains. Those two reasons are why I think it really was not helpful or relevent. 

But, I'll fight tooth and nail for everyone's right to express a differing opinion ! 

(how's that bridge coming by the way? Did you post final pics of it's installation?)


----------



## kleinbahn (Sep 21, 2010)

There was a photo on a Facebook RC fan page where someone had the idea of using the charging port in the back of a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring for a Li battery model. 

The van was a total loss.


----------



## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

just to show it is not just the batt. ,its the planes, Boeing 787 Springs Fuel Leak on Runway 
this happened 1/8/13 not the same plane but still 787


----------



## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I might have some reservations about flying on one of those 787's.

Seems like they are having some problems.

Would hate to have a fire 6 hours our of Seattle heading for Tokyo.

John


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

My dad always told me to never buy a new model car the first year out as it was apt to have unforseen problems that would get fixed by the second year. 

But even if you do by a car or train for that matter and it breaks down, you just get stranded. 

When the new 787 has a problem, you can only hope you survive to be stranded. 

Glad I'm taking the Auto Train to York.


----------



## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

Interesting, I just got a recall notice from the CPSC for Columbia Sportswear jackets made with electronic heating using LI-poli battery pack. The battery can over heat and cause a fire. I don't think I'd like the idea of have one of these strapped to myself. 
heres the link: 

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml13/13089.html 

Steve


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Any wonder the reluctance to embrace Li-Po as a battery chemistry of choice for Large Scale model trains.


----------



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

drat, and i just got a new drill...


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

There's a big difference between Li-ion and Li-poly. I have a li-po pack for my r/c airplane and I'm super careful about storing it in a metal container and charging, and would never consider it for trains, as Tony points out. The Li-ions are much more stable so I wouldn't worry too much about them. I would try to buy from reputable places to avoid the counterfeit/ripoff batteries that are more likely to cause problems. I'm sticking to my DCC track power...batteries drive me nuts. 
Keith


----------



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Quite a bit of miss-information abounds in this thread and abroad with respect to Lithium Poly batteries… In reality there is very little difference of Lithium-Ion cylindrical cells verses Lithium-Ion Polymer cells (more commonly regarded as Li-Po, Li-Poly) less form factor and the flammable solvent used of Li-Ion technologies. In a nut shell; both of the aforementioned Lithium technologies are comprised of the same basic electrochemistry. Specifically with regard to chemical matrix Lithium-Ion cylindrical cells contain flammable organic solvents verses Li-Po’s NON-flammable polymer matrix, accordingly Li-Ion cells are more prone and subject to overheating and abuse resulting in the potential to explode than their brethren Li-Po cells!!!!

The common misconception that the soft pouch architecture of Li-Po cell technology is an inherent safety shortcoming is inconsistent with the very nature of the NON-flammable polymer matrix. A metal case is NOT required because the technology does not incorporate a flammable substance, in fact Li-Po batteries can be bounced off a concrete slab, punctured, compressed or what have you and NOT explode… The same cannot be said of Li-Ion batteries!

The primary reason Li-Ion cells have metal casings, vents/pressure reliefs, cell disconnect devices to preclude short-circuiting and over/under-charge/discharge features is because same is required to make Li-Ion cell technology safe… That said Li-Po’s will puff and or even explode if over-charged just like any other battery technology.

Michael


----------

