# Additives for distilled water?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

My wife bought a very interesting old book "Modern Locomotive Engineering" printed in 1905.

It is about just about everything regarding steam locomotives. One comment caught my interest where it is stated: "Pure distilled water, such for instance as the return water from steam heating systems, is not desirable for use alone in a boiler, as it will cause corrosion and pitting of the sheets..."

It goes into further detail about the effects of lime and magnesia etc.

Granted he is talking about full size steam locos and I would guess that for model trains the effects of using distilled water would be far less noticeable but it left me wondering if there might be some benefit to some sort of additive with the use of distilled water or if it is unimportant.

I know the railroads used additives to make up for contaminants in their local water but additives to distilled water is something new to me.

Any comments?

Jerry


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

Regner calls for adding 3-5% tap water to distilled water for use in their model boilers. I recall a discussion about this some years back but 
don't recall the final consensus. I should think the mineral content of the water in the boiler would increase over time unless one is a 
regular drainer of boilers. 

Harvey C.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
For 1:1 the quality of water available was a great concern to the life of a steam boiler, thus additives.
As for gauge one- 

Given the utilization of water exchange during a running session and the draining of residual water after running this is a non-factor. The only given harm is best described in Vance's collection of information:
Water


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

In those days they called for cast bronze, brass, soft solder chalking and other things no longer used. I wonder if their recommendations are based on that practice. It just seems you would not have to do that. Distilled is about as clean as it gets. I've heard an occasional fill with vinegar helps get the crud out.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to mention that most full size boilers were made of steel, not copper (a few exceptions, although cost and thermal coefficients prohibited it more often than not), as our gauge 1 boilers are. The larger scale steam locomotives using a steel boiler all use a boiler treatment for scale buildup from inferior water supply. Distilled water would leach out the inferior materials in the steel, much like dezincification in brass boilers and fittings.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Jerry,
That book is talking about steel boilers and I have never heard of anyone building a G1 steel boiler but it can be done and distilled water is corrosive to steel which gets worse as the temperature goes up. Modern boiler water chemestry for steel boilers is similar. Even low pressure industrial steam boilers usually have a boiler water treatment program to increase the life of a steel boiler.
Dan


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Hi Jerry, your wife's book is correct. Pure water is very aggressive. For our boilers it is best to use soft tap water. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a funny thing, but distilled water is so pure that it "craves" other ions and can etch metals in it's quest to ionize. It can be particularly damaging to solders. 

I have a big, expensive espresso machine that has 2 steam units... the manufacturer says to NEVER use distilled water... RO water is ok, and the desired water has 5 grains of hardness or less. 

They specifically say that distilled water will damage the unit and void the warranty. It's from Switzerland and costs about the same as a live steamer. 

So, from my chemistry training and examples like this I believe it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Sep 2009 10:58 PM 
It's a funny thing, but distilled water is so pure that it "craves" other ions and can etch metals in it's quest to ionize. It can be particularly damaging to solders. 

I have a big, expensive espresso machine that has 2 steam units... the manufacturer says to NEVER use distilled water... RO water is ok, and the desired water has 5 grains of hardness or less. 

They specifically say that distilled water will damage the unit and void the warranty. It's from Switzerland and costs about the same as a live steamer. 

So, from my chemistry training and examples like this I believe it. 

Regards, Greg 


Deionized water contains no _ions_, which means it has had the chemically reactive molecules removed. If put into contact with metals, however, it will happily take on new ions, with disastrous results. Mike Chaney wrote about the effect of using deionized water at a UK exhibition: 
After about a weeks running some of the loco boilers started to "weep", although they had been properly tested and certified. An investigation showed that the silver soldered joints were failing because the water was trying to grab back ions from any metal with which it came into contact. Copper, zinc and silver were found to be particularly susceptible. Moral: for the long-term health of your boiler, _avoid deionized water!_ 
[script removed]


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Everyone I know uses distilled water in the Gauge 1 locomotives. Personnally I have been doing this for 10 years with no ill affects to the boilers. We get the water at grocery stores for about one dollar a gallon. When I had a full sized steam boat we put water treatment in the boiler but the water we used was what ever was available, sometimes right out of the lake. The treatment was more to keep scale from forming in the boiler than to prevent deteriation of the metals because of the water purity.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Greg, that's correct. As a general rule, the purer the water, the more aggressive a solvent it is. There appears to be an urban myth about de-ionised water being more aggressive than distilled water, but distilled water is also rid of dissolved impurities (i.e. ions). The term de-ionised water is ambiguous and misleading. Firstly, because there are three different methods of 'de-ionisation' of water, ion-exchange, electrodionisation and electrodialysis, delivering different level of water purity. Secondly, de-ionised water is obtained by ion-exchange process which simply substitutes unwanted ions with more friendly ions (this involves mostly cation replacement). In particular, scale producing ions such as calcium and magnesium, poisonous and heavy metals, are mostly replaced with sodium or potassium ions, But for ion replacements, one can also use ions which constitute water itself that is H+ and OH-, in this way getting rid of foreign ions alltogether. For most common applications, such as cleaning processes, heating systems, etc. simple replacement of one chemical impurity with another more friendly one is sufficient, but for applications demanding high water purity as in electronics, impurities need to be replaced with water. So generally, de-ionised water will contain foreign ions to a various degree. Actually, even 100% distilled, de-ionised, etc, ultrapure water, is not free of ions, any water contains ions of itself, that is of hydroxide and hydronium which form through self-ionisation (dissociation of H20 into H3O+ and OH-, apparently due to electric field fluctuations, but I believe this is still a research topic). Of course, the concentration of these ions is quite low - this is the reason why ultrapure water is a relatively poor electrical conductor, but it still conducts! The main difference between the commercially available de-ionised water and distilled water is is that de-ionised water is cheaper and easier to produce but it is less pure, in particular it still may contain organic impurities and bacteria, etc. On the other hand distilled water is not necessarily pure either and this is why the so-called double distilled water is used in science, although once distilled water will be purer than water with ions replaced with 'friendly' ions. But pure water is neither healthy nor tastes good. And as a good solvent it will eat some of your copper boiler protective oxide layer... Ultrapure water also quickly becomes (weakly) acidy Ph


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

To clarify things I am a novice at running live steam. I am not recommending anything but rather just quoting a book that is incredibly detailed.

It goes on to say "... it will cause corrosion and pitting of the sheets, but if it is mixed with other water before going into the boiler its use is highly beneficial, as it will prevent to a certain degree the formation of scale and incrustation. Nearly all water used for the generation of steam in boilers contains more or less scale-forming matter, such as the carbonates of lime and magnesia, the sulphates of lime and magnesia, oxide of iron, silica and organic matter, which latter tends to cause foaming in boilers.

The carbonates of lime and magnesia are the chief causes of incrustation. The sulphate of lime forms a hard crystalline scale which is extremely difficult to remove when once formed on the sheets and tubes of boilers."

The book makes me think I am too dumb to be a fireman much less an engineer on a full size steam engine.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Is suspect that with the changes of water, and other influences have introduced enough ions to the distilled water used that it is not affecting boilers. 

Charles, I did not state distilled water has ions... that's the deal, completely pure distilled water has no ionized atoms, but the addition of very small amounts of an impurity, will allow water to ionize, i.e. it wants to combine with the impurities in ionic bonding. 

The simple way to prove this to yourself, other than reading a chemistry book, or asking someone with a degree in physics or chemistry, is to take pure distilled water and measure it's resistance... then add a small amount of table salt and try again. You will it go from virtually an insulator to a conductor. 

(ionization is the presence of unbalanced electric charges on atoms, they are basically no longer electrically neutral... layman's explanation) 

The common demonstration of this was 2 wires in a jar of distilled water, connected to 110v and a light bulb... the bulb is off, add the salt, the bulb turns on. 

So, this physical fact of the affinity of very pure distilled water to try to combine with impurities is the source of the etching that can occur. 

Again, I suspect that in normal usage, there's enough impurities to avoid this aggressive behavior in most instances. 

In my case, my "Steamer" at home gets RO water... not distilled... as per the manufacturer. 

Regards, Greg


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

If you go to the World Health Organization, the only hazard from drinking distilled or de-ionized water is that you may not get enough calcium and magnesium especially if you consume very little dairy food. The same situation may apply if you drink only from a home water softener which removes the calcium and magnesium which are the main ions responsible for 'hard' water - that is they react with soap to form scum instead of cleaning. Detergents clean the same in hard and soft water.

The self-diassociation of water into hydroxide and hydronium ions was old chemistry 50 years ago. Water is an ionic compound. It usually exists in the combined state due to the attraction of the oppositely charged ions. However, some free ions are always present. Super pure water, stored under argon, will be at pH 7.0, containing 1 x 10 -7 hydrogen ions per mole of water. pH is simply the negative base 10 logarithm of the hydrogen ion concentration. Such super pure water costs $50 a liter or more.

Municipal tap water in the U. S. will typically contain between 100 and 400 ppm of total dissolved solids (TDS), mostly calcium and magnesium ions. Boil it to dryness and you get limestone or gypsum scale.

Distilled water from the grocery should contain between 5 and 10 ppm TDS. Their supplier simply uses industrial steam condensate, not laboratory grade stuff. If the supplier is crooked or merely careless then you could get anything.

Reverse osmosis water can be as clean as distilled water, but store bought RO water frequently has various salts added back to improve the taste - which they may or may not identify.

Most home deionizers simply exchange the calcium and magnesium with sodium ions. The TDS will be either unchanged or slightly higher depending on how well the bed was flushed to remove the salt brine. Fairly low scale formation for our boilers, but not good for humans on a low sodium diet.

Spring water, super oxygenated water, etc. may taste good, but are not intended for boiler feed.

A simple TDS meter can be bought for $50. I check my distilled water supplies occasionally, especially when switching brands.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Sep 2009 08:19 AM 

The common demonstration of this was 2 wires in a jar of distilled water, connected to 110v and a light bulb... the bulb is off, add the salt, the bulb turns on. 


Hi Greg,

I had my own unintended experiment.

When I rebuilt my outside layout I used a water leveling gauge (water in a tube) to maintain level. I had bought the system several years before I used it and then I used distilled water to keep from leaving a film inside the clear plastic tubing. 

When I tried to use the system - nothing happened. I tried a new battery and again nothing worked.

It finally dawned on me that with distilled water there was no conductivity so I replaced the distilled water with tap water and the system worked perfectly because it used electrical conductivity of the water to trigger the water leveling switch.

I only passed senior year high school chemistry because my teacher knew that I had tried very hard but we agreed that I have no ability where chemistry is concerned. He agreed to pass me with the understanding that I would stay away from chemistry the rest of my life (true story). 

Regards,

Jerry


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 08 Sep 2009 10:20 PM 
Hi Jerry, your wife's book is correct. Pure water is very aggressive. For our boilers it is best to use soft tap water. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 

Ah, Zubi, but in Tokyo we HAVE soft tap water. When I was teaching power generation theory at the place we know of, and explaining to the students the efforts made by European engineers to obtain soft water by decalciniification, I had to explain that in many parts of Europe we had limestone deposits in the water, apart from other stuff, and the effects of build-up of this limescale in boilers could be catastrophic. The guy from Tokyo Power had never heard of a decalcinification plant. 

Best from East Anglia

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

You engineer types are all overthinking. 
I don't care, and neither should you care if distilled water breaks down into hydroxyl groups and therefore always has some ionization. I don't need my degrees in rocket science for this. 

Jerry's question has an apples and oranges answer. That is for a full size steel boiler additatives were a necessary option. Furthermore, none of us use the boilers on (did I mention the word "toy" or "scale") locomotives enough to matter....IF you use distilled water or reverse osmosis to purefy the water you wlll not have a problem over the normal operating lifetime of you locomotive. 

If you use deionized water, you eventually will have a problem. 

Now back to our regularly scheduled realignment of deck chairs on the Titantic. 

John


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By John Allman on 09 Sep 2009 09:07 AM 
You engineer types are all overthinking. 
I don't care, and neither should you care if distilled water breaks down into hydroxyl groups and therefore always has some ionization. I don't need my degrees in rocket science for this. 

[...] 

If you use deionized water, you eventually will have a problem. 



Jonh, why is this? could you elaborate? Best, Zubi


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

Nothing is perfect. There is always the law of unintended consequences, or as the medical practitioners say "side effects", to most decisions that one may make.  Empirical data, observed in real life practice is key in deciding what to, or what not, to do.  This is what I have observed, with regard to the G1 boiler water subject, over the last 15 years of heavy small scale live steaming.
I had the good luck to start off my model steaming career with an Aster/LGB Frank S. locomotive.  One of the outstanding features of this locomotive's design (RIP Mr. S. Sasaki) is the big, round, Bendix front loader clothes washer type boiler water sight glass that lets one actually peer into the inside of the boiler and inspect the state of affairs present.  In normal operation the inside of the copper boiler shell displays a soft black patina that is the first step in cupric oxidation.  This condition is normal and all it indicates is that the copper surface has reached out and bonded with free oxygen atoms that have split off from water molecules in the boiler water; no mater the water's composition.  If this patina's appearance should go to the green side of soft black, then there is another kind of chemistry at work involving reactive solids like chlorides that are not contained in *steam distilled water[/i].*
Now the reality is that even steam distilled water has some residual amount of solids in solution.  Over time, one will see little white "dots" or sometimes a soft white overlay forming/precipitating on the soft black patina in the boiler's interior.  This film or dots are the suspended solids that have precipitated out of solution and, over time, they will build up.  Eventually, after many, many, years of operation they will affect heat transmission from the burner to the boiler water and will eventually plug up steam passages.  Early boiler water treatment is recommended to remove the first signs of mineral scaling.
My practice is to keep some kind of mental record of steam distilled water use, and when I think that I have run two or so gallons of boiler water through a loco I set aside enough quiet time  (not in a public venue) to de-mineralize the steam boiler and the engine systems.  I know the volumes (80% = full) of each loco that I own, and so I add white vinegar equal to 1/4 of that volume plus 3/4s volume of steam distilled water to the boiler and then I go steamup.  I intend to use at least two additional boiler volumes of steam distilled boiler water during this session to ensure that all the white vinegar has been exhausted from the locomotive.  At this point the garden no longer smells like salad dressing, and the loco is ready for storage.  I do not drain any of my locos that I place in storage, but then I also have the advantage of living in a mild climate.
 As to the other methods of "distillation: Reverse Osmosis (RO) and Deionization (DI).  I once, in another life, designed and supervised the building and installation  of a 1,000 gallon per day reverse osmosis unit to supply potable water to the Coast Guard Loran Station, Fallon, NV.  I had the unit tested on a dock in San Francisco prior to shipping it up to Fallon.  Both on the dock, and later at Fallon, the unit produced the flattest tasting drinking water one could imagine!  The machine had wrung everything out of the salt water...... including the taste!  In the end, just to satisfy the station's personnel, I tweaked the unit to only be 99.9% efficient so as to add back some flavor.  In my opinion RO derived water is just as good for our purposes as is steam distilled water.
Deionized water is another matter.  I agree with the prevailing view that deionized water is "starved" for something and that it is very slightly chemically active, but I also think that if nothing else is available but tap water, then it is OK to use it, RO, in the short term.
Oh........ and about that Regner thing about adding tap water to distilled water?  They are right............ as far as it goes with regard to Regner locomotives.  My knowledge of their lineup is limited to the bottom tier like Comrade, Willi, Vincent, etc., but all these, and I suspect some others, have brass boilers!  Not copper boilers.  Brass is made from copper and zink, and zink is a highly reactive metal.  It is routinely used in water works of all kinds as a sacrificial metal to be eaten up instead of the iron, steel, copper parent materials that it protects.  In the marine environment I have seen many examples of brass piping exposed to salt water where the chlorides reacted with the zink in the brass, and all that was left was a sponge type remnant of the original fitting.  Im ' guessing this is why Regner is shy of possibly chemically reactive boiler waters.  
I hope that there is a Chemical Engineer/Chemist in the crowd that would expand on the reactivity of water, zink, bronze, tin, copper, brass, stainless steel, to re-define the model chemical universe for all us amatures
Oh yea!  I know somebody is going to bring up rainwater and dehumidifier run off.  I my opinion they are just OK to use if there is nothing better to be had.  I can't get the acid rain thing out of my head, and all the dehumidifier run off that I've seen was full of dust and little green thingies, but hey......... it's someone elses locomotive, right?
KO-5


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

The steamer that I have owned the longest is a RH #24. I have run it for about 14 years. In between runs, it sits on the shelf with distilled water still in it. (I never drain my Locos) I ran it again yesterday with no problems. No leaks, no eaten through solder joints, etc,. I have to agree with John, way to big of a deal is made about this. However, that is what makes this forum fun. I love the water and oil debates







. 

Now, who do you think makes a better Loco:
Accucraft, Aster, Roundhouse, Regner, Mamod, Berkley, Cattatonk, Brandbright, Cheddar, DJB, Geoffbuilt, Hide Out Mountain, I.P., Knoll, Legend, Locobox, Maxwell Hemmens, Poison Creek, Rishon, Shawe, Hadden, Mattel, Fischer Price, etc., etc.,?????????


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi - because of what Kevin OConnor just said above. Practical evidence from a previous life in the world greatest Navy. There are some views I would discount because they do not even own a live steam locomotive. You are most certainly not among them. 

So if it works for you, then by all means continue to do as you have done. All I am saying is the best thing may be to follow the instructions. Aster will tell you to use distilled water if you have it, tap water in a emergency. What I have always wondered is what the heck kind of emergency is it where you risk a 5-15,000 locomotive over 69 cents worth of water? 

On a different note, I have dropped plenty of bombs near Fallon years ago. If I remember correctly all the water there, no matter what source, tasted like sh#t.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By gwscheil on 09 Sep 2009 08:32 AM 
[...]
The self-diassociation of water into hydroxide and hydronium ions was old chemistry 50 years ago. 


George, chemistry yes, but not the physics of water. The Science article by Geissler et al on the molecular mechanism of self-ionisation of water appeared only eight years ago http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/5511/2121 Water is an incredibly complex substance there are entire research groups working on the physics of water. Water is beautiful, it has 15 forms of solid state (ice), several triple points, with the triple point of ice XI only theoretically known, there are still speculations as to the existence of the second critical point of water. My advice is, do some work on water, it is not too late! Best, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By John Allman on 09 Sep 2009 10:08 AM 
Zubi - because of what Kevin OConnor just said above. Practical evidence from a previous life in the world greatest Navy. 


John, I do not understand. What precisely is Kevin OConnor's statement? I have yet to see any competent argument. As for the Navy, they may be using water for floating;-) but I doubt they have any understanding of its physics and chemistry... 

Aster will tell you to use distilled water if you have it, tap water in a emergency.


It appears Aster is in the state of emergency all the time as they use tap water;-) Best, Zubi


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 09 Sep 2009 10:39 AM 


John, I do not understand. What precisely is Kevin OConnor's statement? I have yet to see any competent argument. As for the Navy, they may be using water for floating;-) but I doubt they have any understanding of its physics and chemistry... 


Zube,
The boiler water chemestry on sea going boilers is checked daily and the results are logged. These boilers are not at the extreame pressure ratings as power plants because they are on a moving platform and the load change requirements of manuevering.

Navy boilers and a few merchant marine boilers have a working pressure of around 1200 PSIG. If the boiler water chemestry is ignored it is a long swim home.

Cheers Dan


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve S. on 09 Sep 2009 09:58 AM 
The steamer that I have owned the longest is a RH #24. I have run it for about 14 years. In between runs, it sits on the shelf with distilled water still in it. (I never drain my Locos) I ran it again yesterday with no problems. No leaks, no eaten through solder joints, etc,. I have to agree with John, way to big of a deal is made about this. [...]

Steve, keeping the water in the boiler is no problem. I guess you do not run your loco often. If you boiled distilled water in your boiler few times everyday for these 15 years you would probably notice some effects of it. My point is that deionised water is not worse than distilled water (I have seen neither a competent argument nor any proof to the contrary), but I agree the etching effects of both purified water types will take some time and much water (I am sure there are some experiments and papers reporting what are the rates of the etching process). On the other hand soft tap water is safe to boil. That's all. 
Now, who do you think makes a better Loco:
Accucraft, Aster, Roundhouse, Regner, Mamod, Berkley, Cattatonk, Brandbright, Cheddar, DJB, Geoffbuilt, Hide Out Mountain, I.P., Knoll, Legend, Locobox, Maxwell Hemmens, Poison Creek, Rishon, Shawe, Hadden, Mattel, Fischer Price, etc., etc.,?????????

People not included in your list of course! Would you like some names?? Best wishes, Zubi


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

One of the few things that will destroy nearly any metallic boiler system known to man is to fill it with a moderately strong chloride solution. Doesn't matter if it is sodium chloride (salt water or brine) potassium, calcium, magnesium, or any other soluble chloride. The chloride ions will rapidly corrode the system, the hotter, the faster it goes. By the common reaction rate rule, heating the salt water to low pressure steam levels - say 120C is a tenfold doubling of the corrosion rate or 1,000 times faster than at room temperature. In fact, the commonest standard for measuring metal corrosion is the chloride attack rate. I suspect that the infamous "deionized water" steamer incident was due to chloride contamination. Easy to get since most inexpensive "deionizers" use saturated salt brine to regenerate the zeolite bed. If it is not thoroughly flushed you get salt water out. Worst of all would be to use the same salt brine to regenerate a deionizer that uses the mixed resins. Then in use the anion resins replace every soluble anion, sulfate, carbonate, etc. with chloride ions. The cation resin would replace all metal ions with sodium ions - result - salt water out.

And, yes, I also sometimes fly model rockets.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By tacfoley on 09 Sep 2009 08:55 AM 

Ah, Zubi, but in Tokyo we HAVE soft tap water. When I was teaching power generation theory at the place we know of, and explaining to the students the efforts made by European engineers to obtain soft water by decalciniification, I had to explain that in many parts of Europe we had limestone deposits in the water, apart from other stuff, and the effects of build-up of this limescale in boilers could be catastrophic. The guy from Tokyo Power had never heard of a decalcinification plant. 

Best from East Anglia

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


Hi Terry, that's right, Tokyo has soft tap water. In the areas where water is harder, the simplest water softening method by boiling water will remove most of the temporary hardness. So one can just use boiled water, this has the advantage of saving on the fuels too;-)... if the water is still warm when put into the boiler. I would like to try out the steel mesh trick (attracting limestone) but water in Tokyo is too soft for that;-(... If all fails, and your water is just too hard, just use de-ionised water from the ion-exchange process! With best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting point about brass vs. copper. Could explain a lot about different recommendations for different locos. 

I would also suspect that the different types of solder used would have different resistances to the attack of water. 

The bottom line, again, is that there is theory, and there is experience. A physics should always concede that we do not know everything about the universe or molecules or atoms. So experience should win here. 

Even with my coffee steamer! 

Regards, Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

WOW!!! 

Mr Allman is right!!! Has anyone broken their arm getting wrapped around the axle yet? 

1] When buying water at the drug or grocery store in the US, get stuff labelled "STEAM DISTILLED". It is not deionized. Usually $0.49 to $ 0.89 per gallon. 
2] My well water has so much "stuff" in it, it would have to be distilled just to get the solids out that would clog up the works after enough of the steam condensed in the loco. 
3] Distilled water that is mate by deionizing is the culprit, but enven occassional use willl not destroy a small loco. 

BTW, how many of us [you] regularly clean your boilers by using a vinegar wash [or similar] to disolve the accumulated "junk" in the boilrer? 

Regards


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry: I bet your boiler will run just fine with distilled water as is. I have this feeling it will be OK.

I won't ask what steam oil you are using.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 09 Sep 2009 06:09 PM 
Steve, keeping the water in the boiler is no problem. I guess you do not run your loco often. If you boiled distilled water in your boiler few times everyday for these 15 years you would probably notice some effects of it. My point is that deionised water is not worse than distilled water (I have seen neither a competent argument nor any proof to the contrary), but I agree the etching effects of both purified water types will take some time and much water (I am sure there are some experiments and papers reporting what are the rates of the etching process). On the other hand soft tap water is safe to boil. That's all. 

I am happy to hear that distilled water stored in boiler is no problem. I was not worried about it in the first place but it is good to know. I have had to slosh some vinegar in my boilers through the years but I was talking in regards to ill effects on solder joints etc.
Posted by zubi on 09 Sep 2009 06:09 PM

People not included in your list of course! Would you like some names?? Best wishes, Zubi 

Now zubi, it's hard to beat the Fischer Price Big Bird Loco that my Daughters used to cruise my house on! glad to see you back posting here on MLS again.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve S. on 09 Sep 2009 07:39 PM Now zubi, it's hard to beat the Fischer Price Big Bird Loco that my Daughters used to cruise my house on! glad to see you back posting here on MLS again. 

;-))) that, indeed, would be hard to beat. Thanks Steve, Zubi


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

Well Bob you just had to do it didn't you? Mention that which is best left unmentioned.










None of you will catch me rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs, I'm going over and repaint the Shuffle Board court instead.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

No one has brought up the idea of spitting in the boiler water to make the gauge glass work better. Breaking the surface tension of the water helps keep it from climbing the glass or forming bubbles in it and giving false readings.


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

I like the idea of occasionally adding vinegar (acetic acid) to the water. This is what coffee-percolator manufacturers recommend. The vinegar lowers the pH, and encourages any calcium carbonate that may be in the system to ionize (dissolve). But then, you're supposed to pour the carafe of water out - because that's where the dissolved calcium is: In the water. 

Adding vinegar to the boiler and then steaming up aint gonna help. The only thing coming out the stack is water vapor (and acetic acid). The calcium ions are not in the water vapor; they're still in solution, in the boiler. In order for the vinegar to do any good, you've got to add it to the boiler water, bring your engine up to a boil, then shut it down, and pour out the water / vinegar / dissolved calcium. Elsewise, all you're doing is temporarily dissolving the calcium, then re-precipitating it as you boil off the water. The smell of salad dressing in the garden may be reassuring, but its a false sense of reassurance. At the end of the run, I think the calcium is right where it was at the outset: in the boiler.

Am I wrong on this?

Dr. J


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By xo18thfa on 09 Sep 2009 07:30 PM 
Jerry: I bet your boiler will run just fine with distilled water as is. I have this feeling it will be OK.

I won't ask what steam oil you are using. 



Hi Bob,

I was not as much concerned as interested in what the book says and how it could influence our live steam locos. In my case it has probably been over a year since I ran my live steam Aristo-Craft Mikado (probably at the 2008 Diamondhead).

For what it is worth I use a Sears Kenmore filtering system to make my own distilled water and use either Lucas or Aristo-Craft steam oil. Distilling water is not a cost saving measure for me as much as not having my wife have to haul the distilled water home from the grocery store.

I don't remember if I drained the boiler after I last ran the Mike and leaving distilled water in the loco would tend to me my primary concern. Seeing the build up in my water distillers (I use them regularly for my CPAP machines) keeps me aware of the potential buildup from non-distilled water.

Jerry


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, you need to get out and run that thing. We had a great time steaming her at DH that year.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

The use of vinigar is to remove any buildup of impurities in the boiler not to protect the boiler from the effects of the use of distilled water.

The use of tap water or any kind of drinking water will, over time build up scale in the boiler and reduce heat transfer through the boiler between the fire and water; therefore reducing the efficency of the boiler. It is to recuce scale buildup that additives are use in the bigger boilers like those on steamboats and large locomotive engines. 

There is no question that the way to go in the small scale live steam locomotives is to use distilled water.








We need John Frank to refer us to his previous thread on the operation of his electric "firied" stationary boiler. That boiler definately needs water with ions running around. But, that is a whole different technology.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 10 Sep 2009 10:00 AM 
[...]
There is no question that the way to go in the small scale live steam locomotives is to use distilled water.
[...]


Dave, if no questions can be asked, let me provide some answers...;-) Please check the copper Pourbaix diagram in the reference linked here http://www.metallographic.com/Industrial Products/CopperCorrosion.pdf Copper is stable (does not corrode) for pH greater than 6.5 Distilled water is marked in the diagram from around 4.5 to 5.25. Soft tap water has pH from about 7.2 to 7.9 Now for completeness, have a look at the diagram where de-ionised water is marked. At pH in the range 5.0 to 5.7 it is considerably less corrosive to copper than distilled water but still corrosive. These are diagrams for 25 degrees Celsius, I believe at 100 degrees the situation may worsen, but I cannot access this article from home to verify, will try from the office http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2106919 .The rate of corrosion can also be calculated, of course the total amount of erosion will be low in the case of occasional exposure to distilled water, but would be non-negligible in the case of continuos prolonged exposure. Best, Zubi


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 10 Sep 2009 06:26 AM 
Posted By xo18thfa on 09 Sep 2009 07:30 PM 
Jerry: I bet your boiler will run just fine with distilled water as is. I have this feeling it will be OK.

I won't ask what steam oil you are using. 



Hi Bob,

I was not as much concerned as interested in what the book says and how it could influence our live steam locos. In my case it has probably been over a year since I ran my live steam Aristo-Craft Mikado (probably at the 2008 Diamondhead).

For what it is worth I use a Sears Kenmore filtering system to make my own distilled water and use either Lucas or Aristo-Craft steam oil. Distilling water is not a cost saving measure for me as much as not having my wife have to haul the distilled water home from the grocery store.

I don't remember if I drained the boiler after I last ran the Mike and leaving distilled water in the loco would tend to me my primary concern. Seeing the build up in my water distillers (I use them regularly for my CPAP machines) keeps me aware of the potential buildup from non-distilled water.

Jerry

Actually, that brings up a question. What are the procedures for long term storage. Sometimes I drain them, sometimes I don't. They never sit over 30 days anyway, except for summer. I do a flush once a year with vinegar, someone told me to do that.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi
Interesting observation as per the findings. I have really learned a few 'facts" with this discussion. Would really like to know how the experiment was setup as to:
Thus, distilled water has a tendency to accelerate the corrosive attack on copper because of the carbonic acid or dissolved CO2 gas from the atmosphere. Does imply that distilled water has carbonic acid/CO2 gases or was the setup allowing distilled water to be exposed to those elements?


Secondly, was *distilled water* alone utilized in determining the findings?
Uhlig has summarized environments where copper is corrosive (2):
1. Oxidizing acids, e.g. HNO3, hot
concentrated H2SO4 and aerated
nonoxidizng acids (including
carbonic acid).
2. NH4OH (plus O2) and amines. A
complex ion forms: Cu(NH3)4++
*3. High velocity aerated waters and
aqueous solutions *
4. Oxidizing heavy metal salts, e.g.
FeCl3, Fe2(SO4)3.
5. Hydrogen sulfide, sulfur, some
sulfur compounds
Organic Corrosion Inhibitors
Corrosion inhibitors are an effective
way to reduce metal corrosion. The
inhibitors act by adsorbing onto the
metal surface, thus providing an
barrier to the corrosive environment.



In doing a quick reference for related findings:
*Copper Pipe Corrosion 

*Copper has good resistance to corrosion by all types of freshwater. Corrosion rates of Copper Pipe are from 5 to 25 microm/yr (0.2 to o 1 mpy). Corrosion rates for water saturated with air and carbon dioxide are an order of magnitude greater than those for municipal or distilled water. Copper also has good resistance to corrosion in seawater. Because of its outstanding resistance to fouling by marine organisms, it is wideiy used for sheathing on surfaces exposed to seawater.

Then another study ( really found this one to be very much a good demonstration given time, heat source and closed vs open environment):
http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf 


and other
We have studied copper corrosion in a system comprised of *deionized water*, absolute pressure gauges, and a palladium membrane. A transition from O2-consuming to H2-evolving copper corrosion is observed, which indicates that copper can corrode by water itself. The equilibrium hydrogen pressure in corrosion of copper by water at 73°C exceeds the steady-state atmospheric hydrogen pressure (5×10−7 bar) by a factor of about 2000. _*The growth of a hydrogen-containing corrosion product in O2-free water is controlled by the hydrogen removal from the corroding surface.*_ (or commonly done by venting as per prior experiment).The results are discussed in the perspective of conventional potential-pH diagram for copper. 



So, I wonder if the science of "live steaming" with an short term very active exchange between any form of water in a copper vessel really matters in our hobby. I doubt most active hobbyists would leave any type of water in the boilers for a substantial period of time. Other than the Mike Chaney annotation I have yet to hear from anyone that any type of water has destroyed a boiler (have seen pot boilers from the 30's running along with the oldest Aster that have used distilled water). I doubt any of us will keep distilled water in a boiler for 15 years in a closed environment (not allow hydrogen out) with consistent heat on the boiler.






[script removed]


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Bottom Line Please: 
If we are running locos made by reputably makers such as Accucraft, Roundhouse, Aster, etc., is it not safe to say that if you do not want mineral scale to build up in your toy steam Loco it is fine to use and store this very loco with distilled water ?????? A good slosh with vinegar may be in order every year or so but wont the Loco boiler outlast our great, great, great grand kids using distilled water ?????


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve S - the only thing I know of with a longer useful lifespan than a small steam boiler is a properly built sidelock. I have one that is over 110 years old. No matter how I try, I have not be able to ruin my Purdy. I suspect the locomotives will outlive us all.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John Allman on 10 Sep 2009 05:49 PM 
Steve S - the only thing I know of with a longer useful lifespan than a small steam boiler is a properly built sidelock. I have one that is over 110 years old. No matter how I try, I have not be able to ruin my Purdy. I suspect the locomotives will outlive us all. 

OHHHHHH.........to own and shoot a Purdy.







I can dream.


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

Wow! Five pages and counting; Zubi is back too! Wow! 
In that former life that I spoke of back on page two I had a couple of guiding concepts that I found useful. They were "Better is the enemy of good enough" and "Avoid paralysis by analysis". Both served me well for 37 years and I recommend their consideration to others. 
One last (for me) thing on this boiler water deal. In the "olden days", before polyester, for the most part clothing was made of natural fibers that wrinkled during the drying part of the laundering process. In those days a steam iron was a familiar tool to the homemaker. Let's call her "Mom". In those "Erector Set" days gone past most Moms had a bit more than 2.4 children and a spouse to tend to, and the wise ones were real savvy about their hand tools and the proper care and feeding of them all. In the laundering area the electric steam iron was the go-to tool to make freshly laundered clothing look brand new. In those days, and I suspect today too, every manufacturer of household steam irons *demanded * that their product be filled with steam distilled water or that their guarantee/warranty on their unit would not be honored. The truth was that if tap water was used in the appliance, the impurities contained in the tap water, sooner or later, come out of solution and the iron would spit out particles onto the item of clothing and create permanent stains. The real terror stain was the red rust stain as it was impossible to remove from the garment. 
The iron's manufacturer also advised the use of some amount of proportional solution of white vinegar and steam distilled water to be run through the iron every now and again to keep the internal steam passages clog free. They recommended this intermittent practice because household steam distilled purchased in the local grocery or chain store is not laboratory grade pure water and it does contain some small percentage of dissolved solids. These steam distilled, off-white colored, mineral solids can be observed on the sole plate and in the interior of the steam holes of a household iron that is over due for the weak vinegar cleaning treatment. The internals of our small scale live steamers fare no better than Mom's steam iron and anyone who has access to either a Hyde Shay or a Frank S. and a flashlight can confirm that fact just by peering into the boiler (s) through the porthole boiler water level fitting. 
Mom may have not been a rocket scientist, but she knew how to make things happen and to prevent unnecessary damage to her tools and possessions.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Two Blocked on 11 Sep 2009 10:20 AM 
Wow! Five pages and counting; Zubi is back too! Wow! 
In that former life that I spoke of back on page two I had a couple of guiding concepts that I found useful. They were "Better is the enemy of good enough" and "Avoid paralysis by analysis". Both served me well for 37 years and I recommend their consideration to others. 
One last (for me) thing on this boiler water deal. In the "olden days", before polyester, for the most part clothing was made of natural fibers that wrinkled during the drying part of the laundering process. In those days a steam iron was a familiar tool to the homemaker. Let's call her "Mom". In those "Erector Set" days gone past most Moms had a bit more than 2.4 children and a spouse to tend to, and the wise ones were real savvy about their hand tools and the proper care and feeding of them all. In the laundering area the electric steam iron was the go-to tool to make freshly laundered clothing look brand new. In those days, and I suspect today too, every manufacturer of household steam irons *demanded *that their product be filled with steam distilled water or that their guarantee/warranty on their unit would not be honored. The truth was that if tap water was used in the appliance, the impurities contained in the tap water, sooner or later, come out of solution and the iron would spit out particles onto the item of clothing and create permanent stains. The real terror stain was the red rust stain as it was impossible to remove from the garment. 
The iron's manufacturer also advised the use of some amount of proportional solution of white vinegar and steam distilled water to be run through the iron every now and again to keep the internal steam passages clog free. They recommended this intermittent practice because household steam distilled purchased in the local grocery or chain store is not laboratory grade pure water and it does contain some small percentage of dissolved solids. These steam distilled, off-white colored, mineral solids can be observed on the sole plate and in the interior of the steam holes of a household iron that is over due for the weak vinegar cleaning treatment. The internals of our small scale live steamers fare no better than Mom's steam iron and anyone who has access to either a Hyde Shay or a Frank S. and a flashlight can confirm that fact just by peering into the boiler (s) through the porthole boiler water level fitting. 
Mom may have not been a rocket scientist, but she knew how to make things happen and to prevent unnecessary damage to her tools and possessions. 

I remember that!

Mom got a new GE steam iron that came with a plastic funnel thingy that was labled as "Deionized water maker". She put it over a glass and poured tap water in it; the water that came out was then poured in the steam iron. It took about 5 minutes to get enough water for the iron. It had a replaceable cartridge of some sort that was expensive, so Mom would not let us even taste the water. She also was afraid "it might not be good for you to drink it".

Anyway the iron began to leak badly after a few weeks. She called GE and they sent her a new iron and said to not use the Deioniser any more. Just use plain tap water; and once a month to run a vinegar and tap water solution through it while it was hot (and triple rinse afterward!). I remember just once when she did the vinegar cleaning and the whole house stunk! I don't know if she ever did it again (she may have done it when I was in school and aired the house out before I got home). But that was about the time that Permanent Press came out and "wash day" took a whole lot less time!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

So, if cooper is expose to water will be a cause for problems why are there not many, many failures in our plumbing systems. Most of us have hot water (regular water with all the impurities) flowing through cooper pipes for years without failures. Why not pinhole leaks at solder joints or brittle pipes? Finally, in my home we have hot water boiler for heating the house, one would think that if these problems were so great that recirculation of water back into the boiler would coat that causing inefficient and or failure over the years of it's operation.



Proper care and maintenance is probably more important than the type of water used since it seems that any water source could become a problem for a boiler over a long period of time.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually after about 20 years, less when using the cheap tubing at Home Depot, there ARE pinhole leaks, solder failures, and brittle pipes in plumbing systems.

I've got the names of 50 people in my tract for you as evidence. The cheap china garbage with the thinner side walls was used, house is about 12 years old.

Mine has only had leaks in 2 spots right next to the heater, but I went over EVERY joint personally when the house was being built, and replaced and or resoldered several places before the drywall went up. 


Now, quality is quality, but yes, copper and solder exposed after years will have those exact failures, sooner if cheap/poorly done, and quality stuff will last much longer. 

Here in So Cal, we are at the end of the Colorado River water "pickup" so we get lousy water. 

Caveats have been given, water quality qualified, real experience in plumbing given. 


Regards, Greg


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Sep 2009 12:31 PM 
Actually after about 20 years, less when using the cheap tubing at Home Depot, there ARE pinhole leaks, solder failures, and brittle pipes in plumbing systems.

I've got the names of 50 people in my tract for you as evidence. The cheap china garbage with the thinner side walls was used, house is about 12 years old.

Mine has only had leaks in 2 spots right next to the heater, but I went over EVERY joint personally when the house was being built, and replaced and or resoldered several places before the drywall went up. 


Now, quality is quality, but yes, copper and solder exposed after years will have those exact failures, sooner if cheap/poorly done, and quality stuff will last much longer. 

Here in So Cal, we are at the end of the Colorado River water "pickup" so we get lousy water. 

Caveats have been given, water quality qualified, real experience in plumbing given. 


Regards, Greg 
Greg
So after 50 years we must really have great quality cooper and outstanding plumbers in our neck of the woods!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep! Nice water is the biggest factor in my opinion, but if your copper piping is 50 years old, than I would guess it is not Chinese "quality" and has a wall thickness thicker than a human hair, like the current products in Home Despot! 

I envy your situation.... water leaks are no fun... 

Regards, Greg


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## Slick (Jan 3, 2008)

I feel much better, I may not be able to afford an Aster, but I've got 50 plus years on my house plumbing and no leaks.....nice.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 10 Sep 2009 07:24 AM 
Jerry, you need to get out and run that thing. We had a great time steaming her at DH that year.


Hi Steve,

When it is 90+ degrees outside it is hard (for me anyway) to get energetic about boiling water outside.

Actually the truth is that I have never run the Mike when running trains by myself at home. For me running live steam is more of a group activity. Perhaps part of the reason for that is that I run so infrequently I am more comfortable when someone is around to keep me from damaging the loco.

Marilyn and I enjoyed DH and we might be able to make it next year (it depends on available $$$).

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It is interesting that a statement by an engineer that was made over 100 years ago can start such an interesting discussion.

I wonder if similar discussions were taking place 100 years ago.

Jerry


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

Hey there everybody
I've learned a lot about ion exchange, dissociation constants, steam distillation, and metallurgy following this thread. But I never got a reply to my question about vinegar:

As a weak acid, vingegar is used to lower the pH of water, and encourage calcium deposits to dissociate into calcium ions (CA++) and carbonate. I think this much we all agree on. The object of the game is to get rid of the "scale" (largely calcium carbonate).

So, here's my unanswered question:

My assertion is that you've got to pour the vinegar solution out, not boil it off by running the engine and making the garden smell like salad dressing. Steaming the engine leaves the dissolved calcium behind. When you boil water, nothing leaves the surface of the water but water molecules (and, in this case acetic acid molecules). The calcium - even if it's been ionized into CA++ and Carbonate, does not turn into vapor and leave. It stays in solution, at ever-increasing concentrations, as you boil off the water. If you want to de-calcify your locomotive, you've got to add the vinegar to the distilled water in your tank to make a weakly acidic solution, fire up the engine to accellerate the solubilization of the calcium deposits, then shut of the fire and pour the calcium-bearing water away. Otherwise, you're just going to re-deposit the calcium inside your engine. 

In fact, by putting the calcum into solution and then re-depositing it (by running the engine, instead of draining off the very hard water you've just created inside your loco), you're probably encouraging buildup in the little nooks and crannies at the lowest level of the boiler. If you could put a little camera down there, you'd see a "waterline" rather like the ring around your bathtub, indicating the average "low water mark" you've run to after each calcium "cleaning"

Here, for example, is a "Do it yourself" instruction on cleaning a steam iron:
[*]To clean the reservoir of your iron, pour a solution that is one part vinegar to one part water in. Turn the iron on. Allow it to steam for about four minutes. Drain the iron for an hour, and be sure to repeat the process with clean water before you iron any clothing items. 

Note that the iron steams for 4 minutes, then you drain the iron. You dont run the iron dry.

Can I get all you water chemists to voice an opinion on this please?
Thanks
Dr. J


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Yep, if you use a vinegar wash, then you must drain the boiler after a few minutes near boiling. Then rinse and dump with clean water a couple of times. Do not boil down. Otherwise you have made the situation even worse since all of the scale re-coats the boiler with added solids from the vinegar. Part of the acetic acid may distill over into the cylinders if you boil it down , but most will react with the scale and stay in the boiler.

Most of my own engines are less than a year old and get an occasional drain-out to keep the crud from getting too bad. No sign yet of needing more, such as a vinegar wash. Or even neater things for descaling, cleaning sight-glasses, etc. But they also require special chemicals and much greater care to use. The little packets used to clean coffeemakers appear to now be mostly phosphates and other cleaning agents, but coffeemakers are usually stainless steel elements, not copper or brass. Plain white vinegar is much safer.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I kind of thought the answer was implied by most all of the responses. Yes, DRAIN the acid out of the boiler and rinse several times to remove the crud. Turn it upsidedown and shake it or use a syringe to remove as much as you can, refill with clean water and do it again, and again. I have at times put it in the sink and run plain tap water into one hole in the boiler ("boiler fill" hole on mine) and let the water run for a long time, coming out some other hole (safety valve hole(s) on mine). THEN drain it once more and rinse with distilled water. Using plain tap water for the initial rinse(s) is not a problem because the last rinse with distilled water removes/dilutes the calcium bearing water to acceptable levels.

Some folk do run the engine with the vinegar in the boiler in the assumption that some of the acid will get into the steam pipes and cylinders to clean them too, but, according to the theory that only steam gets to these pipes, and not the calcium, that "should" NOT be necessary. I have some fear that it could possibly be damaging to the works if it also dissolves the oil patina that forms on the cylinder walls or damages the piston rings or packing. But a short run would not be that dangerous (as I see it!).

The thing I find troubling is that I have only used store bought Steam Distilled Water and yet I have some white discoloration on the insides of my water glass. Why the discoloration if I have ONLY used Steam Distilled Water? My water source may not be as "pure" as it is advertised to be!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It occurred to me that it is strange that the subject of using steam distilled water in a full size locomotive ever came up in the book in the first place.

How the heck could they have come up with the tens of thousands of gallons of distilled water a full size steam locomotive would have needed?

Perhaps someone had come up with steam distilling as an solution to some of the less desirable water they had to use in some geographic areas but it seems to me that steam distilling only redirects where the mineral deposits are left. In my case my water distiller ends up with the crud it takes out of the water to protect my CPAP machine and steam loco.

I cannot imagine how they would steam distill 50,000+ gallons of water. If they did they would then have to find a way to remove the crud from their steam distillers (kind of like a gigantic tea kettle).

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 12 Sep 2009 08:36 AM 
[...]
The thing I find troubling is that I have only used store bought Steam Distilled Water and yet I have some white discoloration on the insides of my water glass. Why the discoloration if I have ONLY used Steam Distilled Water? My water source may not be as "pure" as it is advertised to be!


Dear Semper Vaporo, Your distilled water is pure. The white discoloration is a sign of dezincification, it is your fittings which get eaten by distilled water. Tap water would eat them less. http://www.corrosionsource.com/technicallibrary/corrdoctors/Modules/Forms/dezinc.htm Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 10 Sep 2009 01:56 PM 
Zubi
Interesting observation as per the findings. I have really learned a few 'facts" with this discussion. Would really like to know how the experiment was setup as to:
Thus, distilled water has a tendency to accelerate the corrosive attack on copper because of the carbonic acid or dissolved CO2 gas from the atmosphere. Does imply that distilled water has carbonic acid/CO2 gases or was the setup allowing distilled water to be exposed to those elements?


Charles, distilled water absorbs CO2 from the air and becomes acidic. Only fresh distilled water has pH=7 after you open the bottle pH goes down. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_pH_of_distilled_water Best wishes, Zubi


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

More on dezincification:
In its pure state, water has a dissociation constant, such that 10 to the -7 of the molecules of water will spontaneously dissociate into H+ (protons) and HCO3- (bicarbonate). pH is the inverse log of the proton concentration, or, in this case, seven. That's why we call "neutral ph" seven. But neutral pH does not mean that something is "acid free." It just means that there's the same amount of acid in the solution as in pure water. OK. So far, so good.

Zinc, as the previous author mentioned, is more vulnerable to electrolytic attack than other metals. So the zinc is slowly eaten away by the water. Those of you who are yachtsmen probably are aware of something called a Zinc Fish: It's a lump of zinc that's bolted to the outside of the hull of a ship, to be sacrificially eaten away, thereby preserving all the other metal. Think of it sort of like a chemical lightning rod. The electrolytic process eats away the replaceable zinc fish, instead of going after the copper, brass, and other metals in the ship. Here's an article about it:

http://www.yandina.com/electrolysis.htm

A NON TECHNICAL EDUCATION ON BOAT ELECTROLYSIS 

Whenever different metals are placed in a conductive liquid you create a battery. If you connect these pieces of metal together, current will flow. The current will be removing metal from one of the metal pieces = "electrolysis". If this piece is the zinc in your flashlight battery that is good, but if one of the pieces is your propeller it is bad. 

The zincs you use on a boat are called "Sacrificial Anodes". Zinc is used because it has a higher voltage in the water so the current will be more inclined to flow from it than from your propeller. To complete the electrical circuit, the zincs must be connected to the items they are intended to protect. Usually this is no problem because the zinc is bolted right to the shaft or underwater housing. Non metal boats will usually have a copper bonding wire inside that connects all the underwater metal items together so they all share the protection from zinc anodes. Since engines use the metal frame as the negative battery connection and the engine is connected to the prop shaft, the engine and the negative side of your 12 volt system are also part of this bonding connection. This bonding wire is usually connected somewhere to the rigging. This is not for electrolysis protection but for some protection from lightning strikes to conduct it into the water through the items connected together. 

If other currents are allowed to get into this bonding circuit they can easily overpower the small voltage available from your zincs and defeat the protection you need. This is usually the most destructive form of electrolysis and you notice it because your zincs get eaten up very quickly trying to keep up. Under normal circumstances, zincs should last at least a year if they are working normally, and much longer if you don't have any problems. If they are being "sacrificed" in a shorter period you need to find where the external current is getting in. 

The most common source of this external current is the shore power connection, especially the ground lead. Docks are notorious for bad wiring and often the ground lead is not connected to ground, is connected to the neutral, is being used for carrying current to a mis-wired boat, and all other sorts of problems. So the ground lead should never be directly connected to the ground bonding system we talked about earlier. The purpose of the shore power ground lead is to provide a return path for current if there is a short circuit or power leakage from an appliance or the wiring on the boat. You don't want it to connect all the underwater items on your boat to the underwater items on all the other boats and the dock because now your zinc is trying to protect everyone else too. 

Unfortunately it is not always possible to keep the circuits separate due to interconnections such as shore power chargers. There are a number of ways to separate the shore power ground from the boat's underwater bonding system. The preferable and safest way is to use a galvanic isolator to introduce a 1.2 volt insulator in the circuit. This is enough to isolate most galvanic voltages but it will still conduct electrical faults and keep the boat safe in the event of a ground fault in the wiring or in an appliance. The galvanic isolator must be rated for the size of your shore power circuit.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve S. on 10 Sep 2009 02:11 PM 
Bottom Line Please: 
If we are running locos made by reputably makers such as Accucraft, Roundhouse, Aster, etc., is it not safe to say that if you do not want mineral scale to build up in your toy steam Loco it is fine to use and store this very loco with distilled water ?????? A good slosh with vinegar may be in order every year or so but wont the Loco boiler outlast our great, great, great grand kids using distilled water ?????




Steve, the bottom line is: do not worry about your grand grand kids, enjoy your loco(s). 
In more detail, 
0) Jerry's book is correct 
1) it is always better to drain your locomotive (even though distilled or deionised water
are not in contact with outside air while in your boiler and it may of reach equillibrium
while it eats enough of your boiler and solder...) Even soft tap water left in the boiler 
is bad for the fittings - I know this from experience...
2) distilled water is as bad or worse than deionised water (away with the urban myth...)
3) both distilled water and deionised water are bad, soft water is better (use tap water)
4) if you live in the area where water is hard, and you have to use distilled or deionised 
water, add some tap water, this does not cost much and will be more gentle to your boiler. 
You can also use boiled water if you live in a moderate hardness area. 
Monitor scale and descale from time to time if required in a controlled way (be careful)
How is that?
Best wishes from the land of soft tap water, Zubi


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

White deposits in the sight glass could be zinc salts or many others as well - such as calcium or magnesium scale, table salt, etc. Iron salts will tend to be brownish, copper salts green or blue. 

Grocery store distilled water seems to have about 5-10 ppm dissolved solids, run that boiler down to 10% at end of run you now have 50-100 ppm. Run ten times without draining, multiply by another 10 at the end of that last run. Now you are in the range where things start precipitating out to form scale. Top off the boiler for 4 hours of constant running - same result. Start with soft water and the starting point is now about tenfold higher 

Remember, dissolved solids are always present at some level in your feed water. NONE of them ever boil off. A tiny amount may surge through the throttle valve, but deposits in the superheater or cylinders are even worse than boiler scale. 

So, every few boiler fills, fill that boiler about half full, slosh well, and drain it.


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## 2footdrive (Jun 4, 2009)

"So, every few boiler fills, fill that boiler about half full, slosh well, and drain it."

George is that like shampoo...lather rinse repete.

Dan


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 12 Sep 2009 08:36 AM 
The thing I find troubling is that I have only used store bought Steam Distilled Water and yet I have some white discoloration on the insides of my water glass. Why the discoloration if I have ONLY used Steam Distilled Water? My water source may not be as "pure" as it is advertised to be!




I never run anything but distilled water (distilled by me) in my CPAP humidifier but after a period of time (more than a year) even that seems to end up with a slight white discoloration.

On the other hand I also drink mostly distilled water that I then run through a water purifier (charcoal filter) and that water container does not show any white discoloration.

I am just guessing but I would guess that there are some residual minerals left in the distilled water that further heating (even the non-boiling of the humidifier for my CPAP machine) may release.

Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 13 Sep 2009 07:18 AM 
It occurred to me that it is strange that the subject of using steam distilled water in a full size locomotive ever came up in the book in the first place.

How the heck could they have come up with the tens of thousands of gallons of distilled water a full size steam locomotive would have needed?

Perhaps someone had come up with steam distilling as an solution to some of the less desirable water they had to use in some geographic areas but it seems to me that steam distilling only redirects where the mineral deposits are left. In my case my water distiller ends up with the crud it takes out of the water to protect my CPAP machine and steam loco.

I cannot imagine how they would steam distill 50,000+ gallons of water. If they did they would then have to find a way to remove the crud from their steam distillers (kind of like a gigantic tea kettle).

Jerry


The companies that make the bottled steam distilled water are doing more than 50,000 gal at a time. Think of the number of stores that have fifty or more gallon jugs on the shelf all the time and there are industrial uses for it that require more than that per day. 

They also do not just keep adding impure water to the boiler that ends up just concentrating the impurities as the steam is boiled off. They drain and replenish on a constant basis ("constant blow down") when there is a plentiful supply of water (like by a river or lake) so they do not require cleaning as often, but they do have to clean them periodically. Being large stationary boilers they are a bit easier to enter to clean.

I don't know of any RR that tried to use distilled water in locomotives. They relied on chemicals to correct the PH and attempt to keep the solids in solution to be removed by a periodic "blow down".


Zubi:

Your arguments are interesting and I need to study this a bit more. But at present, I am still of the mind that boiling tap water before using it in the boiler is not of value. This may kill algae and bacterial impurities that might be in the water, but that will happen in the boiler at use time and the "bodies" are still present so that is of no value in removing "impurities". It also seems to me to just be concentrating any impurities in the water by removing the H2O that is lost (in the steam) during the boiling, so you are starting with more impurities in the boiler than if you just put the water pre-boiled in the locomotive boiler. I will have to study a bit more to understand the chemical changes that might occur in the water and whether those changes are of value.


As for a sacrifical anode (zinc or something else)... I read a lengthy article some time ago about anodes in boilers and water heaters. The article was expounding upon how long certain brands of anodes lasted in use. Some disolved and dissapeared in just a few weeks or months and others would still be there for a year or more. The author was so proud of how long his selected material lasted in use. All I could think of was that maybe if the anode was not disolving maybe it was not doing what it was designed to do! The article did not mention how long the equipment lasted based on which of the various types of anodes were in use. It is possible that if the anode is in need of replacing often maybe the equipment will need cleaning and repaired less often than if the anode lasts longer.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

After 4 pages of this I decided it was time to test the water from my steam distiller. I used a pool water test kit. here are the results: 
pH: between 6.8 and 7.2 
ppm Free Chlorine: 0 
ppm Total Alkalinity: between 0 and 20 

Based on this I will continue to use my steam distilled water...


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 13 Sep 2009 03:37 PM 
After 4 pages of this I decided it was time to test the water from my steam distiller. I used a pool water test kit. here are the results: 
pH: between 6.8 and 7.2 
ppm Free Chlorine: 0 
ppm Total Alkalinity: between 0 and 20 

Based on this I will continue to use my steam distilled water... 
Jeff, good fresh distilled water, apparently. But this will still eat your brass fittings, so better drain your locos. Zinc only becomes stable above pH=8.5 The best pH for zinc seems to be around pH=9 where the solubility of zinc oxides is lowest. Best, Zubi

Corrosion and electrochemistry of zinc[/b]


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 13 Sep 2009 01:41 PM 
[...] 
Zubi:

Your arguments are interesting and I need to study this a bit more. But at present, I am still of the mind that boiling tap water before using it in the boiler is not of value. This may kill algae and bacterial impurities that might be in the water, but that will happen in the boiler at use time and the "bodies" are still present so that is of no value in removing "impurities". It also seems to me to just be concentrating any impurities in the water by removing the H2O that is lost (in the steam) during the boiling, so you are starting with more impurities in the boiler than if you just put the water pre-boiled in the locomotive boiler. I will have to study a bit more to understand the chemical changes that might occur in the water and whether those changes are of value.


As for a sacrifical anode (zinc or something else)... I read a lengthy article some time ago about anodes in boilers and water heaters. The article was expounding upon how long certain brands of anodes lasted in use. Some disolved and dissapeared in just a few weeks or months and others would still be there for a year or more. The author was so proud of how long his selected material lasted in use. All I could think of was that maybe if the anode was not disolving maybe it was not doing what it was designed to do! The article did not mention how long the equipment lasted based on which of the various types of anodes were in use. It is possible that if the anode is in need of replacing often maybe the equipment will need cleaning and repaired less often than if the anode lasts longer.



Semper Vaporo, thanks. Water hardness consists of temporary and permanent. When you boil water temporary hardness can be removed to a large degree. The use of a sacrificial anode is a brilliant way to prevent corrosion. In our case, we would need an anode with a metal of a lower potential than zinc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page) Magnesium electrodes are used sometimes but magnesium water and fire do not combine well, or rather they do in an explosive sort of way. Aluminum anodes produce a large volume of a residue so they would be no use. A simple option may be to use a sacrificial zinc anode, just to slow down absorption of zinc from brass. This is an interesting problem what kind of an anode could be used to protect our boilers with brass fittings from soft water including tap water and deionised/distilled water. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

If distilled water was so bad for the engines, you would think it would be hard to sell any of the ELEVEN THOUSAND Aster engines that are OVER THIRTY YEARS OLD... Only one of my engines fall into that category, the rest are a bit newer. 
I suspect that dark patina that forms on the inside of the boiler may actually help to protect the metal from further corrosion ??


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 10 Sep 2009 01:56 PM 
[...]

In doing a quick reference for related findings:
*Copper Pipe Corrosion 

*Copper has good resistance to corrosion by all types of freshwater. Corrosion rates of Copper Pipe are from 5 to 25 microm/yr (0.2 to o 1 mpy). Corrosion rates for water saturated with air and carbon dioxide are an order of magnitude greater than those for municipal or distilled water. [...]

Charles, let's take 5microm/yr that after 10 years would eat 0.05mm of the wall. But this is on average, corossion like many other growth processes usually develops a front which is rough and fractal rather than smooth. This means that there will be places which are substantially weakened due to protruding branches of corrosion. Our boilers are pressure vessels and micro cracks will significantly weaken them. This 0.05mm is a conservative estimate for distilled water which is likely to have a higher rate after it absorbs oxygen and carbon dioxide from the air. The moral of this is "do not leave water in your boiler, water, especially if it is exposed to oxygen or carbon dioxide from the air, will corrode your copper boiler" 
Then another study ( really found this one to be very much a good demonstration given time, heat source and closed vs open environment):
http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf 


thanks for providing a link to this paper (published 2009, speak of timely results;-)!, fig 1 very well illustrates the fact that copper will corrode in pure (distilled) water even if it has no contact with air (i.e. no oxygen or carbon dioxide). Fig 2 shows protruding, percolation like, fractal morphology of corrosion. This is a clear demonstration that even pure water (distilled or deionised whatever you name it) will corrode your boiler, even if all the valves are closed and limit gas exchange. I believe the valves which we have on our boilers are not capable of sealing off water in the boilers and preventing the escape (and oxidation) of hydrogen. Moreover, who checks the position of the valves when storing the locomotive...?? The moral of this story is "do not leave water in your boiler, due to auto-ionisation, even pure water will corrode your copper boiler" and other
We have studied copper corrosion in a system comprised of *deionized water*, absolute pressure gauges, and a palladium membrane. A transition from O2-consuming to H2-evolving copper corrosion is observed, which indicates that copper can corrode by water itself. The equilibrium hydrogen pressure in corrosion of copper by water at 73°C exceeds the steady-state atmospheric hydrogen pressure (5×10−7 bar) by a factor of about 2000. _*The growth of a hydrogen-containing corrosion product in O2-free water is controlled by the hydrogen removal from the corroding surface.*_ (or commonly done by venting as per prior experiment).The results are discussed in the perspective of conventional potential-pH diagram for copper. 


This is a similar but earlier study, by the same authors from Sweden now with two more from Canada. I found this earlier, but only now I had a look at this paper. Please note the publication year, 2007. It is quite remarkable to see that new facts are published in this area. The moral of this story is the same; "do not leave water in your boiler". Steve this article helps me reformulate the bottom line point 1 in much stronger terms. From the beginning of this thread, I argued that self-ionisation matters, but I had no proof. My previous version of the "bottom line point 1" was somehow liberal, as I thought that in a closed boiler with no/limited air contact (little new oxygen or CO2, equilibrium will be reached and corrosion will slow down to the point of stopping. Now I can retract this, as we have a proof that self-ionisation of water will cause sustained corrosion of copper (if hydrogen can escape which is the case in our locomotives) The *bottom line point 1* should read: 1) always drain your locomotive (water, especially pure distilled or deionised, will cause corrosion of copper shell and brass fittings). Moderately hard water may be more gentle, but why risk it? Soft tap water and rain water will be almost as bad as pure water. Ih the light of this, a practical problem appears. It is not easy to drain locomotives especially larger ones. I would suggest demanding from manufacturers in our scales that they equip our locomotives with easily accessible and easy to handle drain valves. The only locomotives in my stable which have drain valves are Aster C&S Moguls, and even these valves are awkward and difficult to access... 
So, I wonder if the science of "live steaming" with an short term very active exchange between any form of water in a copper vessel really matters in our hobby. I doubt most active hobbyists would leave any type of water in the boilers for a substantial period of time. Other than the Mike Chaney annotation I have yet to hear from anyone that any type of water has destroyed a boiler (have seen pot boilers from the 30's running along with the oldest Aster that have used distilled water). I doubt any of us will keep distilled water in a boiler for 15 years in a closed environment (not allow hydrogen out) with consistent heat on the boiler.


Charles, the point of the paper by Hultquist et al (available following the link which you provide) is that corrosion occurs when hydrogen can leave the vessel. This is the case in our boilers, the valves are not perfect and who checks them anyway. But if you say that active people drain the locomotives that's OK! I did not, but I am going to from now on;-)!! The experiment in the 2009 paper was done at room temperatures. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 13 Sep 2009 10:08 PM 
If distilled water was so bad for the engines, you would think it would be hard to sell any of the ELEVEN THOUSAND Aster engines that are OVER THIRTY YEARS OLD... Only one of my engines fall into that category, the rest are a bit newer. 
I suspect that dark patina that forms on the inside of the boiler may actually help to protect the metal from further corrosion ?? Jeff, hard to sell an Aster;-)? One thing is, most of Asters are shelf queens. The other thing is that distilled water is advocated by many, so buyers who hear that the engine was run on distilled water and perhaps stored with it inside, are more than happy to buy it. However, due to the urban myth around deionised water, they would not be so keen on buying one which was run on deionised water... In reality, one can evaluate the state of the boiler, fittings etc, although it may be difficult from inside, the outside tells a lot about the engine. But I am sure that you know this. As for the dark patina, this is protective of course, but both cupric and cuprous oxides dissolve in water, minimum solubility is around pH = 7.5 to 8 at 100 Celsius, at lower temperatures at even higher pH. Especially cupric oxide dissolves easier at lower temperatures for lower pH. http://www.iapws.jp/Proceedings/Symposium08/491Palmer.pdf 
The moral? Do not leave water in your boiler;-) and use soft (tap) water rather than pure (distilled or deionised) water. Best, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 08 Sep 2009 10:20 PM 
Hi Jerry, your wife's book is correct. Pure water is very aggressive. For our boilers it is best to use soft tap water. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 

Hi Zubi,

I did not know this was going to turn into such an interesting discussion.

I appreciate your responses and those of everyone else.

This topic really brought out the knowledge and skills of various MLSers.

Regards,

Jerry


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

A dry boiler will not corrode. But make sure it has NO liquid water left. A thin layer of water greatly accelerates the corrosion process - better gas exchange, concentration effects, etc. That means storage with the filler cap off to let any remaining water evaporate away. A museum curator would then put it in a sealed case with plenty of silica gel dessicant packets. How far are you willing to go?

Iron, copper, or brass boilers are most stable under slightly alkaline conditions - pH 8-9. Most municipal water in the U. S. will come out of the tap in that range. The bad news is that the alkalinity comes from the chloramine disinfectant. The resulting chlorine and ammonia are both bad news for corrosion.

The easiest way to obtain a low solids, buffered pH of 8-9 is to add a few drops of dilute washing soda (sodium carbonate) to a gallon of distilled water. Dissolve one level teaspoon of washing soda (NOT baking soda) in one liter (quart) of distilled water. If you have no pH test kit, use 5-10 drops of this solution per gallon of distilled water. If you have a simple aquarium pH kit, keep track of the drop count needed to hit pH 8.5. This count should remain stable unless you change brands of water. You will still need to flush the boiler occasionally to keep the solids from building up too high.


Now, in practice, what are the odds, folks? Compare the chance of serious damage from reasonably clean boiler water to the damage from the occasional boiling dry incident added to sudden impacts (either large solid surfaces, possibly assisted by gravity, or other fast moving objects, aka head-on collisions).


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Oops, washing soda is much less alkaline than the photo grade crystals I use. Either use three times as many drops (15-30 per gallon of distilled), or use a full tablespoon of washing soda.

Igor calls, bak to ze castle.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Question:
My Roundhouse #24 has been run probably 40 times or so over the past 14 years. It has always sat when not in use on the shelf with the remaining steam distilled water in it. I have never sloshed any vinegar through it. I ran it last week and it ran fine, no problems at all. On a scale of 1 - 10, "1" being no damage and "







" being to the point where solder etc., are just about eaten through............................. where do you think my engine is at on this scale ?? I would be willing to bet that the answer would not even be a "1".


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steve, Clearly, you are an optimist;-) While I do not want to alter your feelings for your #24, the inside of its boiler most likely looks like Fig 2 in this paper http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf Possibly, worse. I would not rate it better than 3-4. Best wishes, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 14 Sep 2009 06:23 AM 
Posted By zubi on 08 Sep 2009 10:20 PM 
Hi Jerry, your wife's book is correct. Pure water is very aggressive. For our boilers it is best to use soft tap water. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 

Hi Zubi,

I did not know this was going to turn into such an interesting discussion.

I appreciate your responses and those of everyone else.

This topic really brought out the knowledge and skills of various MLSers.

Regards,

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, Yep, boiling water is fun;-) I hope you will boil some too! Best wishes, Zubi


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

At the risk of over-simplifying:

Zubi: I have been listening to your steady voice throughout this discussion. As a non-chemist, it seems that I could "boil down" your arguments in favor of soft tap water to the following statement: "Water in all its forms is intrinsically aggressive. The purer you try to make your water, the more aggressive it is, in one way or another. Soft (mineral-free) tap water is the best, because tap water has already had a chance to expend its aggressive properties on the pipes in your house plumbing." Am I getting it? 
Best wishes, and thanks for your wisdom and patience.
Jim Coplan (aka Dr. J)
Ardmore, PA USA
---------------------------------


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jim, one correction, soft tap water does contain minerals, just not very much. Other than that, yes, I agree with your summary. Essentially, soft (tap) water is a compromise between corrosivity of pure water and scaling from harder water. Boilers should be drained after the run, and, if required, should be descaled in a controlled way. Best wishes, Zubi


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 14 Sep 2009 10:38 PM 
Steve, Clearly, you are an optimist;-) While I do not want to alter your feelings for your #24, the inside of its boiler most likely looks like Fig 2 in this paper http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf Possibly, worse. I would not rate it better than 3-4. Best wishes, Zubi FOR SALE: Roundhouse Sandy River #24 
Solder and boiler still intact, but going fast At least outside of engine still looks good

Sold as is, steam at your own risk
No returns, exchanges, or refunds


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

*WATER WETTER * 

So long as we're on the topic of water additives, does anyone have experience with an automotive product called "Water Wetter" which is used to improve flow of coolant by greatly reducing surface tension. The application in live steam locomotives is to improve the flow of water in sight glasses by elimating the formation of bubbles which block the flow of water. The end result is a much more accurate reading of the boiler water level. Only a couple drops are needed per gallon of distilled water. 

Regards, 

Will Lindley 
S.A. 5445


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Zubi,

I read through the copper corrosion paper and must disagree about your conclusions with regard to soft water. I can think of no mechanism where soft water would have any effect on the hydrogen equilibrium. Thus, if the experiment was repeated with your soft water, both should show similar effects. I suspect that the soft water would show more corrosion, not less, because it will contain unknown dissolved materials, but probably including ammonia and chlorides unless your city uses non chlorine disinfectants. None of our engines can be sealed well enough to prevent this slow hydrogen dependent attack over many years. Storage at a slight alkaline pH might inhibit the attack, but not if the alkalinity is from chloramine.

Also, at the 5 um per year corrosion rate mentioned, it would take 20 years of constant immersion for the corrosion to reach 0.1mm. Our boilers are at least 10 times that thickness, so after a century the base copper may be in trouble. Electrolytic effects of dissimilar metals at solder joints and brass fittings will tend to still dominate. These electrolytic effects will be minimized by high purity water - few ions present to carry the charge transfers.

Still worried? OK, if your boiler water starts developing a blue-green tint in the sight glass - you have dissolving copper. If it keeps happening, then you are can worry. White deposits are probably not zinc from your brass fittings, but rather limestone or gypsum from residual calcium in the water. Black flakes probably mean someone didn't clean the inside after brazing/soldering the joints. 


Since there are many engines that have been in frequent use for 20+ years with few reports of boiler failures, we must be doing something right, not just lucky. I say carry on.

But what about the tendency of pure water to absorb atmospheric carbon dioxide and shift to the acid side? Yes, it will occur. But not by much in an engine with the caps in place - limited air exchange. Also, as soon as you fire that engine up, the carbon dioxide is boiled off quickly, shifting pH back to neutral. Therefore, RUN THOSE ENGINES FREQUENTLY. Your engine will be happy, you will be happier, and don't forget the therapeutic effect of steam oil - ahhh, ambrosia.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Steve S. on 15 Sep 2009 07:35 AM 
Posted By zubi on 14 Sep 2009 10:38 PM 
Steve, Clearly, you are an optimist;-) While I do not want to alter your feelings for your #24, the inside of its boiler most likely looks like Fig 2 in this paper http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf Possibly, worse. I would not rate it better than 3-4. Best wishes, Zubi FOR SALE: Roundhouse Sandy River #24 
Solder and boiler still intact, but going fast At least outside of engine still looks good

Sold as is, steam at your own risk
No returns, exchanges, or refunds











;-)))) Steve, you made me laugh! OK, I will give your #24 lokie 2-3 rating. But try to store it without distilled water inside for the coming 15 years! Best, Zubi


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

It is really to bad that the book that started this was not even older!! The early marine boiler practice was to use salt water in iron boilers. Hold on you say that will eat the boilers!!! Yep it did and the builders were well aware of the FACTS. However fresh water is at a premimum on small early steam vessels. It was not feasable to carry enough fresh water for the boilers and the crew.
It was not untill after WWII that evaporators got efficeint enough to supply enougn fresh water for the crew and the boilers. The practice of using salt water for boilers stopped some time around 1880 -1890 or so when the pressure and temperature of boilers started to increase.

I read a true story about the Jennet in "**** on Ice" by Edward Ellsberg. This was a polar expidetion that was a failure. The wooden ship was stuck in the pack ice and the pressure was opening the seams and the ship was sinking. The Chief Engineer ordered the boiler to be filled as it was empty to reduce corrosion durring layup saving presicious coal. Well the boiler sea cock was frozen shut. When I read that sentance my brain said BS, as there is no such valve on modern ships. Well I did a bit of reading to learn that it was common practice. The Chief then ordered the man hole on the boiler removed so the crew could fill the boiler with a bucket brigade from the bilge water which was rising. The crew was up to there knees in freezing cold water so they had to keep moving to avoid freezing in place. After a bit the Chief realized that the boiler would not be filled in time to save the ship. His next order was totally aginst Navy or any engineering regulations. He ordered the boiler to be lit with out a proper water level. The fire in the boiler gave the crew hope and they got enough water in the boiler to bolt the man hole and raise steam pressure and start the bilge pumps. The ship was saved by quick thinking and action.

As for zincs and cathotic protection, these systems are widely used in industry and on ships. Any salt water cooler will have zincs bolted to a plate that can be removed for inspection on a regular basis. I have done a lot of zinc replacement. The rule is if half of the zinc is gone new ones are installed. Cathoidic protection is used for the propeller which is in salt water on ocean going ships. A weak reverse current is applyed to the shaft on a silver band with carbon brushes. This protects the prop from galvanic corriosion. I have never seen zincs on fresh water coolers. It is cheeper and simpler to add corrosion inhibitors to the cooling water. Similar to what is done with internal combustion engine cooling loops.

As to marine boiler layup procedure, there are two acceptable solutions completly full or completly empty.

I agree with George water soft water will still eat metal and I believe the rate of corrosion is not reduced by the use of soft water. If it is avaible at your location sure use it, but as we go to steamups all around the world distilled water is better than packing a chemistry lab to determine if the local tap water is hard or soft.

Bottom line why do we use water for steam engines even though it is known to eat most metals? It is cheep and and easy to find most places on the planet.
Dan


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By gwscheil on 15 Sep 2009 08:37 AM 
Zubi,

I read through the copper corrosion paper and must disagree about your conclusions with regard to soft water. I can think of no mechanism where soft water would have any effect on the hydrogen equilibrium. Thus, if the experiment was repeated with your soft water, both should show similar effects. 


Gorge, I think that you are perhaps misinterpreting both the paper and what I say. The paper in question addresses corrosion in pure water. Many live steamers assume that distilled water is perfectly safe for boilers. This paper shows that this is not true. This is the core of my argument and I think that we both agree with that. If you do not, please repeat the experiment and let us know the results (that may take 15 years though;-)... Regarding reduced corrosion in soft water. Corrosion mechanism in pure water is apparently enabled by self-ionisation of water. Self-ionisation is lower in soft water and higher in pure water (this is also why pure water is a better dielectric). The mechanism in question is related to the presence of ions from impurities which are neutral and do not cause corrosion but may cause scaling. For an example consideration please check here, this is all elementary stuff, at the moment I have no better ref handy http://www.vias.org/genchem/acidbase_equ_12591_04.html Regarding corrosive disinfectants, such as chloroamines, of course you are correct. However, they are not used everywhere, for example in Europe the preferred method is using ozone. Also, the concentration of chloroamines is probably quite low where they are used. But you have a point here, I agree, this I suppose is also of concern for the water delivery pipes, etc. On the other hand, I definitely do not agree with you that 0.1mm corrosion depth is negligible. Firstly this is a lower estimate, secondly every expert in crack propagation mechani will tell you that materials may become catastrophically weakened by even tiny protruding percolating defects. This is how corrosion develops. It forms a fractal front which weakens the material. Will your 2mm thick boiler be catastrophically damaged after keeping distilled water in it for 30 years? Perhaps not, but why risk it? In any case, it will not be any worse if you fill it with "deionised" water;-)) But perhaps it is time slowly to close this otherwise quite entertaining debate? Whoever wants to understand the arguments would have done so by now. Best wishes, Zubi 
PS Oh, absolutely, I agree, run them frequently!!


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 15 Sep 2009 10:46 AM 


Gorge, I think that you are perhaps misinterpreting both the paper and what I say. The paper in question addresses corrosion in pure water. Many live steamers assume that distilled water is perfectly safe for boilers. 


*Zubi,*
*All water is corrosive to metal even soft water. This makes it unsafe also by your logic. Risk management theory is needed to address if there is a risk or not. Nothing is perfictly safe there is risk to all human activity. To worry excessively about minor risk factors is unhealthy and will lead to paralysis of the mind and body.*

*Dan
*


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Just some random musings and a personal conclusion:

Boiling water before putting it in the boiler... I still question the utility of doing so. I can see an advantage if you put the still hot water in the boiler as it would be a savings in locomotive fuel since it would not have to provide the BTU's/Calories to raise the water to the boiling point, but the amount of energy to raise the water to boiling point is pretty small compared to what it takes to continuously boil the water at pressure. Of course if you let the water cool before you put it in the boiler then you lose that advantage. And I wonder how long it takes before the advantageous chemical/ionic changes revert to the original form. If it never reverts then steam distilled water has already been boiled and has that advantage, if it reverts within a few minutes then the boiling was of no value at all. The act of transferring the water from the initial container (for the boiling) to the locomotive boiler could introduce gases which would at least partially negate any advantage of boiling the water to remove these gasses.

The disadvantage is that H2O lost as steam as the water is boiled merely concentrates the dissolved solids in the water that remains and thus is a problem in the boiler. I suppose that some volatile contaminants (gases, etc.) would be boiled off and as such not be introduced into the boiler, but those chemicals would boil off IN the boiler when the water is boiled there anyway and be expelled on the first few cycles of the cylinders, or by having the blower open while raising steam... or blowing the whistle upon leaving the roundhouse!

I would also be concerned about the thermal shock of adding hot water to a cold boiler. Lighting a fire under a full (and cold) boiler is also a thermal shock, but the water in the boiler quickly spreads the temperature rise across the whole boiler, whereas pouring hot directly on a flue tube may cause it to expand and apply stress in a non-linear way against the flue sheets that the other flues are not at that instant. Still, I doubt if this is of any concern given the sizes and amount of heat (BTU's) present and the duration of the disparity of heat across multiple flues and the boiler shell. The flame at the bottom is a whole lot worse in that regard and is only of concern if the boiler goes dry!


As for steam distilled water being more aggressive to the boiler components... isn't "steam distilled water" running in all the pipes, cylinders and appliances no matter what the source of the water in the boiler?


As for me, after all this discussion, I think that I will continue to use steam distilled water without any additives in my Aster Mikes as I am more concerned with solid containments being left behind than I am about the aggressive nature of water on the boiler walls and fittings. The aggressive nature of the water is going to attack the metals whether I include solid contaminants or not.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 15 Sep 2009 10:24 AM 
It is really to bad that the book that started this was not even older!! The early marine boiler practice was to use salt water in iron boilers. Hold on you say that will eat the boilers!!! Yep it did and the builders were well aware of the FACTS. However fresh water is at a premimum on small early steam vessels. It was not feasible to carry enough fresh water for the boilers and the crew.
It was not until after WWII that evaporators got efficient enough to supply enough fresh water for the crew and the boilers. The practice of using salt water for boilers stopped some time around 1880 -1890 or so when the pressure and temperature of boilers started to increase.





Actually the author does use data from much earlier.


While he does not get into iron boilers he does describe how boilers are built including the various components and tools used. He even describes how to build test pieces of boiler material to determine if it is acceptable.

Initial boiler steel was rated at 70,000 - 74,000 psi but this was dropped to 55,000 - 66,000 psi usually 60,000 psi because of the high tendency of higher strength steel to crack.

One reference he uses is Thurston's Manual of Steam Boilers, Oct., 1888 and how to determine the bursting pressure of unstayed flat surfaces by Mr. Nichols in the Locomotive, February 1890.

Some of his references include Count Rumford, Munich, Bavaria 1798 when he presented his theory of the Kinetic theory of heat to the Royal Society of Great Britain (not accepted as fact for 50 years); Dr. Joule 1840 - 1849 etc.

It is a fascinating book even if I don't understand much of it.

Jerry


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Taken directly from the Roundhouse web site:
Distilled water - the best water you can use. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get hold of. If buying distilled water, be very sure that it actually is. Some retail outlets will sell 'purified' or 'de-ionized' water (for steam irons or car batteries) and tell you it is distilled but it is actually quite different. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

zubi, I am sure that what you have said is true. I have learned a lot from it. However, in the application of running our toy steam loco's I still think that there is no problem with running and storing them with distilled water inside their boilers. Take for instance Roundhouse. They have made and run many engines over the years. I believe that they static run their classic series loco's for several hours under steam before they ship them. Roger Loxley, (along with most other Loco makers) who has had much more experience building and running then most says that distilled water is the best to use. This does not mean that distilled water is perfect, but for most applications it might just be the best. 

After digesting 5 pages of this thread, doing research on Loco makers web sites and reading their instruction books, my conclusion is to still use steam distilled H2O (a little scientific talk there) in my Loco's. It is also easy to get in the U.S. Is it as good as I thought..................no. But I am convinced that it will not cause any real problems in my or my children's life times.

What are other Folks conclusion to all of this? I must say that it has even been more fun then the steam oil debates.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steve, the beauty of Nature is that it is not decided by any authority. Mr Loxley and Roundhouse folks are fine locomotive builders and their job is to provide guidance to the owners of their products to the best of their knowledge. However, is not their job to distinguish truth from legend. The same source, citing "general opinion", classifies de-ionised water as the worst and to be avoided http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/tech.htm#water You cannot have pure water (distilled and de-ionised is equivalent in the context of our application) to be both best and worst. Fortunately, the same info suggests soft water is just "fine". Sorry, I should have let others speak! Best wishes, Zubi


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

All I have to do is look inside the "hot" tank of my distiller to know that I DON"T want to put my local tap water in any of my engines !!!


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Take a look at your hot water heater when you get ready to replace it. It will weigh ten times what it weighed when you first instalkled it with all the crud that comes out of the water when it is heated.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 17 Sep 2009 05:44 AM 
Steve, the beauty of Nature is that it is not decided by any authority. Mr Loxley and Roundhouse folks are fine locomotive builders and their job is to provide guidance to the owners of their products to the best of their knowledge. However, is not their job to distinguish truth from legend. The same source, citing "general opinion", classifies de-ionised water as the worst and to be avoided http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/tech.htm#water You cannot have pure water (distilled and de-ionised is equivalent in the context of our application) to be both best and worst. Fortunately, the same info suggests soft water is just "fine". Sorry, I should have let others speak! Best wishes, Zubi Zubi, I think that really what you are saying is as simple as de-ionised water is no worse to use then distilled water. DUH..... why did it take me so long you must say [/i]!







While it has been informative, somewhere along the last 5 pages I got lost in all the chemical engineering and scientific jargon in the analyzing of water. Now, as runners of Live Steam toy locos we can all decide for ourselves if we want to continue the "urban myth[/i] " and continue our quest for steam distilled water, or ............................ realize that science says that it really does not matter because its all gonna eat your loco up anyway.










And now,............................................. back to Steam Oil


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Gentleman,


I am a retired Marine Engineer with a BS degree in Marine Engineering. I have operated and maintained desalination plants of several types capable of making 20 to 40 tons of water daily. My wife has a PHD in Civil Engineering specializing in water chemistry. The reason I am stating the education level of my house is not to be bragging but to impart to the reader that this message was mainly written by me and fact checked by my wife who has spent a considerable amount of time in a very well equipped lab at the University of Texas conducting very sophisticated experiments and analysis of water.


The reason we speak of soft and hard water is the original definition was soft water will make a good pot of beans. Hard water contains a lot of minerals and no matter how long you boil the beans they will not get soft. My tap water is well water and in Central Texas it is very hard and I know that for a fact because beans made with it will never get soft.


The modern definition is a bit more scientific, but the terms to talk about water tend to be a bit muddy and they are misused all the time by laymen and professional writers. The next bit was copied from: http://www.answers.com/topic/hard-water


Because it is the precise mixture of minerals dissolved in the water, together with the water's ph and temperature, that determines the behaviour of the hardness, a single-number scale does not adequately describe hardness. Descriptions of hardness correspond roughly with ranges of mineral concentrations:


Very soft: 0-70 ppm, 0-4 dGH 


Soft: 70-140 ppm, 4-8 dGH 


Slightly hard: 140-210 ppm, 8-12 dGH 


Moderately hard: 210-320 ppm, 12-18 dGH 


Hard: 320-530 ppm, 18-30 dGH 


Very hard >530 ppm, >30 dGH 


The three methods that have been discussed on this thread to purify water have been distilled, reverse osmosis, and deionization. I will discuss distilled water first because that is the type of process that I have the most experience with. Distilled water is not pure water. The detection meter on the Alfa Lavel distillers I have worked on trip the distillate pump to the bilge at 5 grains per gallon. The process typically produces water in the range of about 1-2 grain per gallon. This water is very soft water by the above range. There has been talk of steam distilled water; well steam is only one of several sources of heat that can be used to distill water. On diesel ships the main engine jacket water is used as the heat source for the process. Raw water is pumped through an air eductor to draw a vacuum on the evaporator shell. This reduces the boiling point of water. The heat source flows through a titanium plate heat exchanger to boil the raw water. Above the water level is another titanium heat exchanger that has the cold raw water flowing on the inside of the plates. The other side of this plate cooler is open at the top and the steam is cooled and collected so the distillate pump can transfer it to the fresh water holding tanks. The boiled raw water is now called brine and it is pumped overboard by the brine pump. There is no great concentration of crud to deal with as nearly all of the crud is discharged overboard. The jacket water temperature is below the temperature required by public health. Ultraviolet light is used on the drinking water to kill dangerous pathogens. This type of desalination plant has very low maintenance. A chemical feed is used to reduce scale build up and the plates usually have only very light scale or discoloration on then when they are inspected and cleaned on a yearly basis.


(A side issue about older ships without efficient evaporators; they used salt water sanitary flush systems. Having salt water flowing in pipes in every cabin was a maintenance nightmare. A very careful approach with pipe wrenches has to be used to repair or replace flush valves. Every piece of the sanitary pipe on old salt water flush ships was egg shell thin. Extreme care had to be used or you would have to re-plumb the system all the way back to the engine room!)


I have also had some experience with RO desalination plants on ships and the output is very soft water similar to the distillers. Most US ships now use distillation plants for desalination because maintenance is much less than a RO system of similar capacity. RO membranes have improved considerably since my experience with them. I asked my wife if it was possible to detect the difference between distilled water and RO water and she said yes but it would require a very well equipped lab to make the test. The piece of equipment she said which could be used to make the test is a ion chromoatigraph.


Now to take on the last one or deionized water; well some lab rats with white coats and thick glasses tend to use the term deionized water as a synonym for chemically pure water as it is usually the final process in a string of processes that are used in the lab to produce water as pure as possible to make solutions for testing and analysis.There are several grades of purity for water used in the lab but this is well out of the scope of a discussion of boiler water. In truth without extreme care pure water will stay pure about as long as you can keep a fart in a jar. 


Commercial deionized water purchased for a steam iron is not nearly as pure. Of all the processes mentioned it varies the most because the raw water used in the process varies with location. The chemical composition of the resin used for deionization is determined by which types of ion are in the source water. This will vary also with the company doing the process and the rules for drinking water and bottled water labeling in the country (and State) of origin.


In the US all bottled water is regulated by the FDA. Definitions given on state public health sites say that the definition of purified water includes distilled water, deionized water, reverse osmosis water, and demineralized water is basically the same, 10 ppm TDS or less. The testing is done inhouse or at certified laboratories on a yearly basis for a wide range of things. Bottlers can get waivers of the annual test based on previous results to reduce the frequency of testing. The only test done on a weekly basis is for coliform bacteria. This fact means that in the US you are taking only the word of the processing company that the water is free of ALL ions. The point is - the testing is relatively infrequent, there is a range of acceptable levels, and there is no standard for "hardness".


The link I posted includes hardness information for several places in the world unfortunately Japan is not listed. I was unable to find a number for the hardness of water in Japan but several websites state that to get the true flavor of Japanese food soft water is mandatory. Perhaps Zubi can give us a typical hardness range for tap water in Japan.


In conclusion not many people have access or the need for chemically pure water both distilled and RO water are very soft water and made by a physical process I believe that they have a reasonably uniform quality level. However faulty equipment or unscrupulous operators can affect the water quality. Deionized water is a chemical process and in my opinion is not the most reliable source of very soft water for the reasons given. If you live in a location where soft or very soft water comes from the tap then you are lucky to have such high quality water to use in boilers.


Dan


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Who would have thought this thread would have gone on this long







Now Jerry, you need to go run that Loco. Or at least put some "Kind" of water in it.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 17 Sep 2009 09:16 PM 


Who would have thought this thread would have gone on this long







Now Jerry, you need to go run that Loco. Or at least put some "Kind" of water in it.











Hi Steve,

Actually I've been thinking that I should drain any water that is in it out and to leave it uncapped to evaporate any residual water. Knowing myself I will probably still be thinking about it in the spring.

I agree. I had no idea that there would be such a response.

Jerry


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I agree with Dan's post on different kinds of water.

Now, can we get back to something we all agree on - steam oil?


I see the Green Velvet fans went down a notch recently - the company now contracts out their manufacturing. Their steam oils have also had the specs change after laboratory testing. It appears that they were using the viscosity of the base oil, not the final compounded product.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Dear Zubi,
Untill this discussion on water it had never occured to me that some locations have tap water that is suitable for modern boiler practice. That information has been well recieved. Would it be possible for you to give the specifications of typical tap water in Japan so model engineers the world over can use that knowledge to thier advantage?
Thank you.
Dan


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## D&RGW 461 (Jun 4, 2009)

Dan, How long can you keep a fart in a jar for??? And are you distilling,de-ion, or softining them first???


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

D&RGW, you must be one of them gas firen guys (or gals,) hehe


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## D&RGW 461 (Jun 4, 2009)

Yes i am Jeff, ( gas fired ) At least thats what my wife says.







Chris Sortina


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Well Chris, 
You have me there the expermental data is incomplete because no one is willing to open the jars to check. 
More beer more testing.... 
Dan


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## D&RGW 461 (Jun 4, 2009)

Dan, Thanks for the good read. BTW have you practicing the flaming chainsaw juggling bit for DH in jan?? I know what the answer to that is already, Thanks Dan. Chris Sortina


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 21 Sep 2009 09:18 AM 
Dear Zubi,
Untill this discussion on water it had never occured to me that some locations have tap water that is suitable for modern boiler practice. That information has been well recieved. Would it be possible for you to give the specifications of typical tap water in Japan so model engineers the world over can use that knowledge to thier advantage?
Thank you.
Dan
Dan, I will respond, sorry for the delay. Work and other things are disturbing my train activities;-(... Best wishes, Zubi


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

By Dan Rowe:
as long as you can keep a fart in a jar. 

Question:
If somebody farts in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, did they really fart


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 09 Sep 2009 09:46 PM 
No one has brought up the idea of spitting in the boiler water to make the gauge glass work better. Breaking the surface tension of the water helps keep it from climbing the glass or forming bubbles in it and giving false readings.

Now this is interesting news. I never heard of doing that before.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gwscheil on 18 Sep 2009 07:53 AM 
I agree with Dan's post on different kinds of water.

Now, can we get back to something we all agree on - steam oil?


I see the Green Velvet fans went down a notch recently - the company now contracts out their manufacturing. Their steam oils have also had the specs change after laboratory testing. It appears that they were using the viscosity of the base oil, not the final compounded product. 



Darn George, I have a whole gallon of it. Should I poor it down the drain?


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 11 Sep 2009 11:30 AM 
Posted By Two Blocked on 11 Sep 2009 10:20 AM 
Wow! Five pages and counting; Zubi is back too! Wow! 
In that former life that I spoke of back on page two I had a couple of guiding concepts that I found useful. They were "Better is the enemy of good enough" and "Avoid paralysis by analysis". Both served me well for 37 years and I recommend their consideration to others. 
One last (for me) thing on this boiler water deal. In the "olden days", before polyester, for the most part clothing was made of natural fibers that wrinkled during the drying part of the laundering process. In those days a steam iron was a familiar tool to the homemaker. Let's call her "Mom". In those "Erector Set" days gone past most Moms had a bit more than 2.4 children and a spouse to tend to, and the wise ones were real savvy about their hand tools and the proper care and feeding of them all. In the laundering area the electric steam iron was the go-to tool to make freshly laundered clothing look brand new. In those days, and I suspect today too, every manufacturer of household steam irons *demanded *that their product be filled with steam distilled water or that their guarantee/warranty on their unit would not be honored. The truth was that if tap water was used in the appliance, the impurities contained in the tap water, sooner or later, come out of solution and the iron would spit out particles onto the item of clothing and create permanent stains. The real terror stain was the red rust stain as it was impossible to remove from the garment. 
The iron's manufacturer also advised the use of some amount of proportional solution of white vinegar and steam distilled water to be run through the iron every now and again to keep the internal steam passages clog free. They recommended this intermittent practice because household steam distilled purchased in the local grocery or chain store is not laboratory grade pure water and it does contain some small percentage of dissolved solids. These steam distilled, off-white colored, mineral solids can be observed on the sole plate and in the interior of the steam holes of a household iron that is over due for the weak vinegar cleaning treatment. The internals of our small scale live steamers fare no better than Mom's steam iron and anyone who has access to either a Hyde Shay or a Frank S. and a flashlight can confirm that fact just by peering into the boiler (s) through the porthole boiler water level fitting. 
Mom may have not been a rocket scientist, but she knew how to make things happen and to prevent unnecessary damage to her tools and possessions. 

I remember that!

Mom got a new GE steam iron that came with a plastic funnel thingy that was labled as "Deionized water maker". She put it over a glass and poured tap water in it; the water that came out was then poured in the steam iron. It took about 5 minutes to get enough water for the iron. It had a replaceable cartridge of some sort that was expensive, so Mom would not let us even taste the water. She also was afraid "it might not be good for you to drink it".

Anyway the iron began to leak badly after a few weeks. She called GE and they sent her a new iron and said to not use the Deioniser any more. Just use plain tap water; and once a month to run a vinegar and tap water solution through it while it was hot (and triple rinse afterward!). I remember just once when she did the vinegar cleaning and the whole house stunk! I don't know if she ever did it again (she may have done it when I was in school and aired the house out before I got home). But that was about the time that Permanent Press came out and "wash day" took a whole lot less time!


I always used steam distilled water in my steam iron. Never had any problems. It was old as it belonged to my mother and she always used distilled water in it also.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By hcampbell on 08 Sep 2009 06:21 PM 
Regner calls for adding 3-5% tap water to distilled water for use in their model boilers. I recall a discussion about this some years back but 
don't recall the final consensus. I should think the mineral content of the water in the boiler would increase over time unless one is a 
regular drainer of boilers. 

Harvey C. 
Yes Harvey, I noticed the same recomendation for my Marklin BR18 which I understand uses Regner parts. I did not realize they used brass boilers vs copper. Sooooooo what I get out of this discussion is this: I store all my locomotives with boilers full and oilers full ready to steam. Only have to add fuel. This is apparently ok for everything but my Marklin which I am going to drain as soon as I get out of this board. Most of my Accucraft engines are just too heavy to turn over and drain. Some have blow downs I could use but others do not. If I were to store any of these engines long term without running them I would drain everything. This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks Jerry for bringing it up. Sorry I am so late reading this but I have been out of town for the last 12 days.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

On the Green Velvet oil matter, the change was not huge, down about 2 ISO steps. Since I have at least 4 different types of steam oil with the only noticeable difference being the consumption rate ( lighter oil = more used), don't pour it down the drain unless it is growing strange creatures or has sludge at the bottom of the bottle. 

I treat my Regner Willi only slightly different than my other engines. Willi gets an occasional shot of slightly alkaline water to minimize corrosion. But constant use would build up the solids load too high. After a full drain, then I start the routine all over again, some alkaline water to start, then distilled as make-up water. The 5% tap water would be about the same as my alkaline water. Most U. S. cities supply water at pH 9 or so, so a 5% mix should pull the pH toward the desired slightly alkaline side. 

Why don't I just use 5% tap water? Hey, a retired analytical chemist measures everything - when possible. I have portable water meters for pH and dissolved solids, an IR thermometer to see just how hot that engine is running, dial thermometers to measure that pesky tender water bath temp on my Aristo Mikado, etc.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

This is really a good thread. Steam oil and water discussion all in one. Now if someone would just add a discussion of various manufacturer's locomotive quality control and design features ------


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I still think that the best steam oil to use is the oil that I suctioned out of my Berkshire before it's last run that was full of *GREEN SLIME*. It had sat up for an extended time with:

A: Distilled water in its boiler from previous run, and........................
B: Steam oil mixed with condensed _steam distilled water_ and *GREEN* _*SLIME*_ that had grown in it's lubricator from previous run and storage ..............

It was the best run I ever had with that engine. No joke. Others were there to verify. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE: FOR SALE CHEAP
Roundhouse #24, and now a Aster Berkshire too

Disclaimer: Run at your own risk, damage may have been incured by caustic steam distilled water run and stored in both engines and, *GREEN SLIME* may take over your Rail Road from Berk if purchased ! (could make the movie "The Blob" look like a kiddie flick)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

two bits for the Berk. 

And because I am such a giver, I will pay shipping.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 22 Sep 2009 10:34 AM 







Now if someone would just add a discussion of various manufacturer's locomotive quality control and design features ------ 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 21 Sep 2009 06:52 PM 
Posted By Dan Rowe on 21 Sep 2009 09:18 AM 
Dear Zubi,
Untill this discussion on water it had never occured to me that some locations have tap water that is suitable for modern boiler practice. That information has been well recieved. Would it be possible for you to give the specifications of typical tap water in Japan so model engineers the world over can use that knowledge to thier advantage?
Thank you.
Dan
Dan, I will respond, sorry for the delay. Work and other things are disturbing my train activities;-(... Best wishes, Zubi
Dan, I am very sorry for the delay. Tap water in Japan is on average somewhere between soft and very soft. But like everywhere this depends on the location and it can vary from extremely soft like 30ppm to moderately hard like 300ppm (CaCo3). Here is a paper with measurements in 1987 in Tokyo area, 
http://nels.nii.ac.jp/els/110003643...der_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1253878239&cp= and you can see that hardness varied from 40.2ppm to 239ppm with average 69ppm (that is for tap water, for well water 96ppm) In Bunkyo-ku area where I live hardness was 95.8ppm but the neighbouring Taito-ku had 239ppm! In Yokohama, where Aster lives, hardness was 74ppm. 


This is the hard data. If you wish to have more recent measurements, I will try to get find them, this should be possible, although ou never know what you may find. While looking for the above, I learned the simple truth of similar preference for natural mineral water between female college students and rats. Well, what can one say? I am only surprised that the authors did not receive Ig Nobel price for this: http://nels.nii.ac.jp/els/110003168...der_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1253879263&cp=
However, however... in 1999 the price in Chemistry was taken by pretty serious stuff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#1999

OK, back to water, at about 100ppm in my area (and more or less the same in places where I attend steamups) water is very gentle for my 
stainless steel kettle and I guess for the bowels of my espresso machine. But I feel that it may actually be too soft for my live steamers. I have to fight dezincification on some of my locomotives, apparently those which I use most often. I think that this does not depend on the type of brass used as this affects locomotives built in Germany, UK and Japan. On the other hand I have not observed any problems on the China built Accucrafts, but as I suspect the reason is simply because I do not use them often due to their enormous size which makes it difficult to transport them to steamups. 

I mostly fight this corrosion with silicone oil spray can, and from now on I will definitely try to make sure that the boilers are free of water. But this is not a simple task on some locomotives, and I started to appreciate the ugly filling tube on Accucraft engines. One can suck water out with a syringe.
My Roundhouse and other locomotives also have an opening for directly filing water (better concealed, usually under one of the domes). But some engines such as Aster C&S are quite tricky to empty, even if fitted with a draining valve, lack of opening for filling requires applying some air pressure to push water out of the boiler. Ideally, I feel that the engines should be equipped with a draining valve mounted in the lowest point of the boiler and with an opening on the top of the boiler, which can be used both for filling with water and to let air in when draining. 

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Zubi:

So your local water is similar to the Kansas City tap water - about 125ppm, softened Missouri River water. But some local cities use well water - 300+ppm. 


Dezincification is likely to get worse before it gets better. I see no indication that any of our manufacturers use one of the resistant alloys now available. Also, more zinc = cheaper. As long as the boiler itself is solid copper (all Accucraft boilers are copper), then the brass fittings should act as sacrificial anodes, and fittings can be replaced much easier than boilers.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting, in our community the scale ranges from 39-93 ppm


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Two Blocked on 11 Sep 2009 10:20 AM 
Wow! Five pages and counting; Zubi is back too! Wow! 
In that former life that I spoke of back on page two I had a couple of guiding concepts that I found useful. They were "Better is the enemy of good enough" and "Avoid paralysis by analysis". Both served me well for 37 years and I recommend their consideration to others. 
One last (for me) thing on this boiler water deal. In the "olden days", before polyester, for the most part clothing was made of natural fibers that wrinkled during the drying part of the laundering process. In those days a steam iron was a familiar tool to the homemaker. Let's call her "Mom". In those "Erector Set" days gone past most Moms had a bit more than 2.4 children and a spouse to tend to, and the wise ones were real savvy about their hand tools and the proper care and feeding of them all. In the laundering area the electric steam iron was the go-to tool to make freshly laundered clothing look brand new. In those days, and I suspect today too, every manufacturer of household steam irons demanded that their product be filled with steam distilled water or that their guarantee/warranty on their unit would not be honored. The truth was that if tap water was used in the appliance, the impurities contained in the tap water, sooner or later, come out of solution and the iron would spit out particles onto the item of clothing and create permanent stains. The real terror stain was the red rust stain as it was impossible to remove from the garment. 


The iron's manufacturer also advised the use of some amount of proportional solution of white vinegar and steam distilled water to be run through the iron every now and again to keep the internal steam passages clog free. They recommended this intermittent practice because household steam distilled purchased in the local grocery or chain store is not laboratory grade pure water and it does contain some small percentage of dissolved solids. These steam distilled, off-white colored, mineral solids can be observed on the sole plate and in the interior of the steam holes of a household iron that is over due for the weak vinegar cleaning treatment. The internals of our small scale live steamers fare no better than Mom's steam iron and anyone who has access to either a Hyde Shay or a Frank S. and a flashlight can confirm that fact just by peering into the boiler (s) through the porthole boiler water level fitting. 
Mom may have not been a rocket scientist, but she knew how to make things happen and to prevent unnecessary damage to her tools and possessions. Dear Two-Blocked,
Thank you, that is a most kind of you to welcome be back. 
Now as far as the tools of possessions of your Mom, in spite of apparent similarity in the names, steam irons and (steam) iron horses are not the same thing. The difference is slight, but I just realised that it may be relevant to look closer at this. In steam irons, water is not actually boiled in the vessel, but it is taken as liquid water and converted to steam while passing through the holes in the hot iron plate. This is where the phase transition occurs, and ALL water which gets there is effectively evaporated, that is converted to steam. Most impurities which were in water, stay exactly there where they got depraved of their solvent, that is in these holes. They build crystals of scale, which crack when temperature changes as it often does on irons and so they turn to limestone dust which during next ironing session gets blown out by the fresh steam.
Now, let's look at iron horses. Water is actually boiled and converted to steam in the boiler vessel. It is only steam with whatever few ions from impurities and gas particles are taken from the space above the water level and this is the steam which is used to power our locomotives.
Also, we usually do not turn to steam more than 50% of the water volume in the boiler, usually less, and then we add some new water. After that when we are done, we drain the boiler, or at least we should be doing that. To make a long story short, the accumulation of scale which your Mum observed on the steam outlets of her iron is unlikely to be observed in our steam boilers, where a more uniform and therefore much thiner coating of limescale is to be expected. 
Additionally, which your Mum may not know, as she had no choice but an iron made from iron or more likely from steel, for some reason which I do not understand, iron and steel tend to attract limescale considerably better than other metals such as copper of our boilers. I would be happy if someone provides a reference to some research concerning this 'preferential attachment' mechanism of limestone to steel. I mentioned this effect earlier in this thread, and I believe it could be used to keep scale from coating our boilers provided a simple mechanism of inserting and removing steel mesh would be devised. 
As for rust stains, I fully agree that they are incredibly difficult to clean. Aparently they came from rusting iron itself, that is caused by water of any type, only sometimes faster if water has more oxygen dissolved etc. We did not cover rusting of iron and steel in this thread, not yet. But if your Mum's concern is not so much basic science behind the effect but the stain itself and the possible method to remove it. I would recommend phosphoric acid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid I worked with it a month ago on the ties in our bathroom, stained with rust. The progress was slow but the effect perfect, i.e. rust free. I have no idea whether it is safe to fabrics, you would need to check that before attempting to use it.
Finally, yes, I agree, some vinegar from time to time is the right thing to do to our boilers but only if you use hard water and begin to the see some build up of white coating of limescale
Thanks again and Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Being naturally curious and skeptical I sought out the Tokyo muni water department for a what and why. 

The Tokyo water dept website (in English & Japanese) has all the details related to source and output water composition both mineral and chemical. Included is very detailed treatment plant design/process description with excellent graphics. This is for the whole of the Tokyo metro area (all prefectures), the most populous city of any country, >35million. This level of publicly available detail seems driven by the current climate of public concern for safety and their demands for full disclosure by governmental and municipal agencies. Google, "Tokyo water treatment". 

Japan's soft water? It's a natural phenomenon.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Corrosion in iron or steel boilers is a whole different kettle of fish. Much higher rates of attack, but under the proper conditions a thin layer of magnetite will form on iron boilers, which is resistant to further attack. No such protective film will form on copper or brass except for some of the special brass alloys.

Has anyone actually detected dissolved zinc in their boiler water? If dezincification of the brass or just plain brass corrosion, then the zinc salts are very soluble and will remain in the water. In a week or so, I should receive a $20 zinc test kit and I have 5 steamers with both copper and brass boilers that have been fed distilled water and not flushed for 2-12 months. I will post the results as soon as available.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 25 Sep 2009 08:05 AM 
Interesting, in our community the scale ranges from 39-93 ppm 
Lucky pup, you - our water averages 247 mg/L hardness (CaCO equivalent) and a pH of 8.1 (fine for live steamers, bad for most plants). TDS is 542 mg/L. IIRC, that hardness is something like 19 grains. We're "off the chart" in our dishwasher manual. This is mostly California aqueduct water. We don't use a softener for the house, as it is tolerable, unlike much of the well water in the American West.

Neighboring city, which has some local sourcing, is 217 mg/L hardness and 495 mg/L TDS.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread. I do mean that and hope that it continues another 7 pages. However, we now have people buying water test kits, calling their municipalities for water purity standards, sending water off to labs, trying to drain their loco's totally dry after each run, and just plain old worrying







about the water that goes into their loco's. My question is this:

If you use _steam distilled water_, is there not a better chance of you doing damage to a highly detailed large engine by holding it upside down and shaking the water out then if you had just left it in







I can just see someone shaking their Big Boy down. The second run (4024's) have the drain under the site glass. You cant get it all out without turning the engine upside down and draining through fill plug at top. Many other engines have similarities or there is a reason that you cant get all the water out without shaking it out through the top. 

I think that if you have engines like this, you are better off leaving the water in the boiler. We have agreed that over a 14 year period the inside of my Roundhouse #24 is maybe a 2 - 3 at worst. (scale of 1 - 10, many, many, post's back) A slip of the hand while shaking water out could do a lot more damage then that. 

This is a great discussion, but if you use _steam distilled water_ I think that it is a lot of worry for not.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, if you pay the shipping, I'll dispose of your engines with damaged boilers at NO charge. I am having all my boilers ceramic coated, this should extend their life by several centuries.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not only testing my tap water, but I am also having all my boilers examined by a metalurgist and untrasonic and hydro tested.

What happens if you get steam oil in your boiler water?????????????????????


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jfrank on 25 Sep 2009 08:25 PM 
I am not only testing my tap water, but I am also having all my boilers examined by a metalurgist and untrasonic and hydro tested.

What happens if you get steam oil in your boiler water?????????????????????


That's a good question John. The water in any boiler on an engine that has a displacement lubricator must have trace amounts of steam oil inside. Would this not help to protect the boiler?? What about if you do get all the water out of the boiler........you still have water eating away at the insides of all the copper tubing and plumbing running from the boiler to different parts of the engine. What good is an engine with a pristine boiler if all the plumbing is eaten away from the inside out ??


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Chris Scott on 25 Sep 2009 11:35 AM 
Being naturally curious and skeptical I sought out the Tokyo muni water department for a what and why. 

The Tokyo water dept website (in English & Japanese) has all the details related to source and output water composition both mineral and chemical.[...]


Chris, I could not see any current water composition info in English, if you have a link please provide. The current water info from Tokyo is available here http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/water/w_info/s_kekka-map.html#suishitu2 Tap water composition in each area you can see if you poke on blue circles. Calcium and magnesium hardness is listed as item 39 (カルシウム、マグネシウム等(硬度)) So you can verify that in Bunkyo-ku where I live Calcium hardness is currently 85 http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/water/w_info/s_kekka21-data/k001_4.pdf Well, this keeps changing I suppose most likely towards softer side. Best, Zubi
PS water is of course an extremely important part of disaster prevention which in Japan is a top priority. This is also one of the reasons why information is widely available. But in Japan, all sorts of information is available to the public. Here is the map of Tokyo are water reservoirs and water purification plants http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/eng/supply/03.pdf In sakura season I often go to the park near Arakawa reservoir


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John and Steve, the only problem with steam oil in the boiler is that your water level glass will become even less reliable and dirty. Of course steam oil has some protective working but due to high viscosity, it only gets distributed well if the boiler is still hot. It is probably better to spray some silicone oil if you want to expel moisture. Actually there are some even thinner oils used for electronics which may be even better for this as they are more creepy. I guess someone may know the US brand names for this stuff. One of the problems with this is to know how particular oil behaves when heated, I know silicone oil has good thermal stability and does not create problems when heated. Best wishes, Zubi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 25 Sep 2009 09:18 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 25 Sep 2009 11:35 AM 
Being naturally curious and skeptical I sought out the Tokyo muni water department for a what and why. 

The Tokyo water dept website (in English & Japanese) has all the details related to source and output water composition both mineral and chemical.[...]


Chris, I could not see any current water composition info in English, if you have a link please provide. The current water info from Tokyo is available here http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/water/w_info/s_kekka-map.html#suishitu2 Tap water composition in each area you can see if you poke on blue circles. Calcium and magnesium hardness is listed as item 39 (カルシウム、マグネシウム等(硬度)) So you can verify that in Bunkyo-ku where I live Calcium hardness is currently 85 http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/water/w_info/s_kekka21-data/k001_4.pdf Well, this keeps changing I suppose most likely towards softer side. Best, Zubi
PS water is of course an extremely important part of disaster prevention which in Japan is a top priority. This is also one of the reasons why information is widely available. But in Japan, all sorts of information is available to the public. Here is the map of Tokyo are water reservoirs and water purification plants http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/eng/supply/03.pdf In sakura season I often go to the park near Arakawa reservoir 

Tokyo Metropolitan Government: 


http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/eng/index.html

Google'd, "Tokyo water department", this was the first link 


This eventually leads this to the deep tech info:


For Water Professionals (http://www.waterprofessionals.metro.tokyo.jp) 

...as well as various other sources on chemistry, geology, water treatment plant design, methods and processes, et.al. From the above I'm sure these are familiar to you. But if you would like help let me know.


All the best from California's and the world's best wine producing region. Chris


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 25 Sep 2009 09:54 PM 
John and Steve, the only problem with steam oil in the boiler is that your water level glass will become even less reliable and dirty. Of course steam oil has some protective working but due to high viscosity, it only gets distributed well if the boiler is still hot. It is probably better to spray some silicone oil if you want to expel moisture. Actually there are some even thinner oils used for electronics which may be even better for this as they are more creepy. I guess someone may know the US brand names for this stuff. One of the problems with this is to know how particular oil behaves when heated, I know silicone oil has good thermal stability and does not create problems when heated. Best wishes, Zubi OK,............ so we get the water out of the boiler. What about the water left behind in all the copper pipes running to and from cylinders and such ? Why have concern with water left in the boiler if you can't get the water out of all the copper pipes too ? If we are going to split hairs, er'....... I mean water molecule's here, lets not stop with the boiler.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Steve, there is a lubricator before these pipes so there is always some protective oil residue. The same applies to cylinders. The superheater pipe is almost always stainless steel which is relatively (although not perfectly) resistant to water. Best, Zubi


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

From what I have read on the larger scale (ride on sized) forums for Live Steam, they usually have a steel boiler (some are copper, but apparently not all that many) so they are more worried about rust. When they lay up (over winter) a loco, the boiler is drained and all pipes are blown out with dry compressed air. Then they put a 40 to 100 Watt light bulb in the boiler to generate heat to help dry the insides and it is kept turned on all the time to keep it dry.

They are more concerned with water chemistry since the cost of using distilled water in these much large boilers would be high, so they do use additives to help eliminate scale. Their boilers also follow full sized practice and have blow down valves to help reduce the concentration of contaminates.

They also worry about oil in the water because it tends to cause foaming and this in turn causes "carry over", or water in the steam passages, which can cause serious damage if liquid water gets to the cylinders.

When I shut down my locos after a run (fuel has run out) I close the throttle and open the blower (I have alcohol fired locos) to allow the pressure to go down and keep a good draft over the fire to completely burn off the remaining alcohol (I have not had a problem with the wicks charing). When the pressure is down to 0, I keep the blower open and then open the throttle a small amount. This is to keep the throttle from sticking shut due to differences in thermal expansion/contraction of the valve stem and valve body, but with the blower still open any negative pressure that results from the cooling of the water and boiler shell will not draw oil from the oiler back into the boiler.

If I had a loco that did not have a blower, I would keep the throttle closed until I KNEW the pressure was down to zero and then I would remove the boiler fill plug or safety valve and then open the throttle... to emphasize... the pressure MUST be ZERO before removing a plug (I know this is necessary from seeing a friend unscrew the fill plug before the pressure was gone and launching the plug into the air with a jet of very hot water!... he was not hurt, but was somewhat embarrassed and it could have been very bad!)

I used to syringe out all the water I could and then turn the loco over and shake what water I could out through the fill port, but that got old after a while so now I just leave the water in the boiler. I have not seen any problems doing so, but I have noted that if the engine sits for very long the quantity of water still in the boiler will be less than what it was when I put it away. I see no evidence of a leak anywhere (the engines usually are sitting on a table that shows water spots quite well when I spill some) so I have no real idea where the water went. I do a hydrostatic test of the boiler to 1.5 to 2 times my safety valve settings every spring and I have not seen any leaks that way either.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Rowe on 15 Sep 2009 10:24 AM 
It is really to bad that the book that started this was not even older!! 

Hi Dan,

It turns out that Marilyn had bought an earlier book as well: "The History of the First Steam Locomotives in America" written by William H. Brown and published in 1871.

This book goes into details about many of the first US steam locomotives and includes published data from much earlier including the first steam carriage exhibited by Cugnot in 1763 (along with drawings and write ups from those days and how they led to English models such as by William Murdoch in 1784). He even discusses how those original locomotives came about to the level of Robert Stephenson (George's father) earning up to twelve shillings a week. George's first wages were twopence a day herding a neighbor's cows.

Originally the English wanted to go with stationary steam engines pulling trains from one steam engine to another with ropes. They recommended that the Americans stick with horse drawn cars pulled on rails. Apparently it was the Americans who built the first locomotives that actually pulled trains

He reproduces the B&O specifications including a maximum pressure of 100 psi with a blow out at 120 psi and to be tested at 3 times the operating pressure.

"Flanges were to be four feet seven and a half inches apart"

"wheels to be short coupled four feet from centre to centre in order to suit curves of short radius"

After the wreck of the "Best Friend" trains were limited to:

"Resolved, That in future not over twenty five passengers be allowed to go on each car. That the locomotive shall not travel at a greater speed when there is attached:
"One car and passengers at fifteen miles per hour.
"Two cars and passengers at twelve miles per hour.
"Three cars and passengers at ten miles per hour.

I had no idea that books like these could be found outside of museums.

Jerry


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi Jerry,
Actually early mountain railroading in this country was done with a stationary engine at the top of the hill. A chain was wraped around a drum and lead to two parallel tracks leading down the hill. One side would have full cars and the other side would have empty cars to reduce the engine strain. Ever wonder where the saying about the weakest link of a chain comes from? Imanige the wreckage when it is found on a gravity railroad!!!

No one asked my about the _Jeannette _ but the Chief Engineer became very famous and became the Chief Engineer for the whole US Navy. More about Admiral George W. Melville USN can be found here: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/...melv-d.htm

Engineering history is a fasinating subject to me as many folks here already know my specility is the engineering history of Shay locomotives, and i have written over 20 articles on the subject for Steam in the Garden.

Zubi, many thanks for the water specs, and I am looking to George's report on the zinc tests.
Cheers Dan


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## Dr. J (Feb 29, 2008)

All very interesting. Go to google and enter "Incline railroad," for a long list of exactly that: railroads consisting of an incline, often with two counterblanced cars. 

THe bio on Adm. Melville is very interesting. Was he related to Herman Melville, or Melville Bell Grosvenor? 

For another good read, try Endurance, the story of the Shackelton expedition to antarctica 

Dr. J


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dan, you are most welcome. There are some more points to write about, perhaps I'll do that this weekend. On the subject of brilliant old books, for several years (maybe 15 now) I buy books from Camden in UK so they send me their catalogue every quarter of a year or so. I must say that I always look forward to receiving them. For me these catalogues are a treasure grove and I keep them all for reference, as each book is shortly introduced and many books once sold out do not get reprinted again. I am often simply amazed with the variety of books that have been written on the most exotic of subjects. Anyway, now they have a website at Camden so you can have a virtual look http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/ Best, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 26 Sep 2009 10:02 AM 

From what I have read on the larger scale (ride on sized) forums for Live Steam, they usually have a steel boiler (some are copper, but apparently not all that many) so they are more worried about rust. When they lay up (over winter) a loco, the boiler is drained and all pipes are blown out with dry compressed air. Then they put a 40 to 100 Watt light bulb in the boiler to generate heat to help dry the insides and it is kept turned on all the time to keep it dry.

[...]
They also worry about oil in the water because it tends to cause foaming and this in turn causes "carry over", or water in the steam passages, which can cause serious damage if liquid water gets to the cylinders.

[...]
I used to syringe out all the water I could and then turn the loco over and shake what water I could out through the fill port, but that got old after a while so now I just leave the water in the boiler. I have not seen any problems doing so, but I have noted that if the engine sits for very long the quantity of water still in the boiler will be less than what it was when I put it away. I see no evidence of a leak anywhere (the engines usually are sitting on a table that shows water spots quite well when I spill some) so I have no real idea where the water went. I do a hydrostatic test of the boiler to 1.5 to 2 times my safety valve settings every spring and I have not seen any leaks that way either.


Semper Vaporo, Thank you for letting us know how larger boilers are cared for. I take part in ride-on activities but only in the fun part;-) so I never realised how much care is involved in preparing these locomotives for storage. You are also right about the oil, fortunately, in our small (by comparison with ride on) locomotives, hydraulical lock usually does not cause any problem and in fact most of my own locomotives just manage to squirt out water which often gets into the cylinders on startup (when I overfill the boiler for example, or if sloshing sends some water up the system). I believe that the water you see disappearing after prolonged storage partly evaporates and escapes through the blower and partly reacts (through the dissociation process) with the copper and forms growing oxide layer. But both are quite slow processes. I guess, if you stored your locomotives with blower firmly closed perhaps the water level would stay the same? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

the amount of water loss through electrolysis or disassociation is too small to measure over any time period we are considering. Any loss of water comes from evaporation, which is several orders of magnitude higher than electrolysis as a source of water loss. I suppose I could look up the rate of electrolysis in one of my books, but it isn't even a rounding error compared to evaporation or leaks.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John, but Semper Vaporo did not say how long he stores his locomotives;-))))... I also think that water loss due to dissociation is negligible, but I believe that the evaporation rate would also be severely reduced in this case as water vapor loss through the blower must be quite low. Actually, it is a mystery to me too if Semper Vaporo talks about months of storage rather than years. I hope someone can give us a good answer! Best, Zubi
PS the reason I mentioned dissociation is Fig 1 in this paper http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 12 Oct 2009 07:38 AM 
John, but Semper Vaporo did not say how long he stores his locomotives;-))))... I also think that water loss due to dissociation is negligible, but I believe that the evaporation rate would also be severely reduced in this case as water vapor loss through the blower must be quite low. Actually, it is a mystery to me too if Semper Vaporo talks about months of storage rather than years. I hope someone can give us a good answer! Best, Zubi
PS the reason I mentioned dissociation is Fig 1 in this paper http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf


Water loss was after a winter layover... 6 or 7 months, and I have seen it happen several times to both of my Mikes. One of the engines was sitting on the display track that comes with the Aster kit and that was on a piece of white paper that would show water spots if something dripped on it (it shows where oil from the wheels has spread on it, but no wrinkling that would be associated with water).

The only thing open to the air was the blower valve and throttle. But moisture escape to the air via the throttle would have to be at under a not fully seated "D" valve or at a valve rod gland and/or piston rod gland or around the piston seal. But, those are both long and very narrow passages and I cannot fathom a "boiler full" of water evaporating through them... there is no air flow through them. There are no pipes that extend toward the bottom of the boiler that might siphon the water out.

The only thing I can figure is that maybe I have a very small leak somewhere that drips onto a tie and the house air is so dry that the water evaporates before enough collects to run off the tie and onto the paper. Like I said, I do a boiler hydrostatic test most every spring before I run the engines the first time in the spring and detect no leaks. Also, I have two Mikes and have seen this loss of water from both of them.

I just checked one of my engines that has not run for a whole year and I know it had about 1/4 glass of water when it had cooled down the last time I ran it and it is now bone dry... standing the engine on the cab end shows no water in the glass. I don't remember how much water was left in the boiler of the other engine when I ran it last spring (on a treadmill) but I know I did not run it dry (!) and there is still a very small amount of water showing in the glass.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this happening (or not) on their engines or if I am the only one.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Semper Vaporo, this sure is a mystery and I have never heard of it happening with water, although whisky and other alcohol based substances do show this tendency... My main suspect is still the open blower, water vapor, like any gas will try to escape, albeit very slowly due to very low pressure. I would also suspect drain valves slowly letting water out, but then, if you run the loco, the same slightly leaking valve would start dripping. Unless, it seals when hot... Best, Zubi


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I see no leaks when doing the hydrostatic test and that was normally done at cool/room temperatures so I doubt if it is a "heat sealed" leak. A couple of years ago a thread on another forum debated what the temperature of the water should be during a hydrostatic test and my understanding was that the consensus was that it should be somewhat above room temperature, but not boiling. I now heat a couple of cups of water in the microwave for about 2 minutes (not quite to boiling) and use that to replenish the boiler before I close it up and the remainder I pour in the tender tank to use as the presurizing water. By the time I get all that done it is just hot to the touch, but not steaming (don't really want boiling water to squirt out if there is a problem someplace!).

I suppose it might be a leak low on the boiler (it'd have to be low for all the water to be gone) that seals when there is pressure in the boiler.

Still, I notice it with both of my Aster Mikes, so what ever it is, must be common to both of them. There are no drain valves on this model (I wish there were, as then I'd have an excuse for the problem and I'd just be thinking that I need to fix it "someday").

Maybe I should try some strong food coloring to see if I can find the leak? Probably have to be blue because red is the color with which I tint the alcohol (and I can find evidence of wherer that has dripped or sloshed and such), and green might be confused with copper oxides. Other colors might also be hard to detect on the copper and brass parts.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Hmm. Self drying boilers. How can the water be disappearing? Permeation through the metal itself is nil - no space between the tight packed copper atoms for a water molecule to wiggle. Reaction with the boiler is very small - that much water would convert the entire boiler to a pile of oxide. Adsorption to the metal surfaces - also nil - they are already wet. Imperfect seals opening up at room temperature - possible, but unlikely.


Next - atmospheric pumping. Changes in atmospheric presssure or temperature will cause that vapor to expand and contract. Consider that every passing weather front will expand or contract that vapor by 1-3%. So every low pressure front will cause the direct loss of 1-3% of the entire boiler air space volume saturated with water to be pumped out. So, lets see - assume 100 ml of space, saturated with water at room temperature, losing 2% or 2 ml saturated vapor containing 20 mg/liter of water every week. I get about .04 mg of water loss per week. In one year that is only 2 mg or .002 ml. Temperature cycling will be smaller in each cycle, but daily. So double that to .004 ml. 


Next up, diffusion through the open valves. If any of the boiler valves are cracked open, then saturated water vapor will fill those passageways. But, their exit points are exposed to low humidity air. Thus, a continuous, slow loss of water will exist at those points, being replaced by more boiler water evaporating. The cylinder valves stop in an unknown state, maybe closed, maybe open. Any blower valves are more direct paths. But remember, as the weeks pass, the cylinder seals are going to open up as the oil film thins. In fact, any seal that depends on an oil film is going to open up. And here things may get interesting. Every boiler fitting has a seal. Those that are grease or Teflon seals should be relatively unaffected. But some seals use paper or cardboard based fibers. Those seals depend on absorbed water to seal. Which means that the fibers are continuously wicking water to the exterior. As the engine cools, the pressure on the seals drops, allowing more water to wick away. Tough to measure this effect, but I seem to remember that Asters do use a fiberboard type seal for some of the fittings. Any such fitting above the water line will be leaking slowly, but then it is also dry and shrunken. Those still below water level are leaking through direct capillary action. If a 100 ft tall tree can survive by capillary action though those cellulose fibers....


Finally, we come to my personal favorites - quantum tunneling and micro-wormholes. Just as electrons can exist in an undefined state and tunnel to the other side of a barrier, so can water molecules. Or maybe passing wormholes translate the water to another time or dimension. Or the boilers may by chance be holding a tiny black hole that slowly devours the water molecules. Prove any one of these and win the Nobel Prize for physics.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

George, Quantum tunneling definitely gets my vote!! BTW, I should have added a smiley at that oxidation, this exists but is extremely slow, probably at the same level as absorption by oil soaked seals;-) We definitely need some boiler science!! Best wishes, Zubi


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I belatedly remembered that Teflon seals are subject to cold creep. That is, Teflon flows slowly even at room temperature. So that seal that was tight isn't any more. And thick TFE washers eventually become thin ones. They were an endless source of headaches in lab equipment running at elevated temperatures. Every time that joint heated and cooled, the seal was iffy. A major reason why gas chromatography columns went to things like Vespel and graphite ferrules long ago. A programmed temperature run cycle can cover -50C to 250C over and over in a day. And our boilers also cycle repeatedly through lower limits. So, in time, every non-soldered fitting will develop leaks even if tiny.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Hummm... What about Dynamic Equilibrium?
If water stored in a closed container is removed and measured there will always be less water, even if a small amount, due to the process of Dynamic Equilibrium as the vapor will dissipate/escape and condensation on the container walls will be left behind. 




"Dynamic Equilibrium:


Dynamic equilibrium occurs when the rate that particles leave a liquid in a closed container equals the rate that particles reenter the liquid. When liquid evaporates in a closed container, gas molecules collect above the liquid as vapor. As these gas molecules fly around inside the container, they hit the container walls and the liquid’s surface. Gas molecules that collide with the liquid’s surface lose kinetic energy by transferring it to the molecules in the liquid. If the gas molecules lose enough energy, they are reabsorbed by the liquid. This process of changing from a gas to liquid is called condensation.


When a liquid first begins evaporating in a closed container, the rate of evaporation typically exceeds the rate of condensation. As evaporation proceeds and more gas molecules collect above the liquid, higher numbers of gas molecules strike the liquid’s surface, speeding the rate of condensation. In a closed container, the liquid and vapor reach a state of dynamic equilibrium when the rate of evaporation of molecules equals the rate of condensation of molecules."



"None of this do we know for certain but something of the sort must be true"
Aristotle


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris - I was going to go into why I might not agree. I have since decided better as I have personally reached dynamic equilibrium. 

Have a nice day. 

Im going back to check on the destruction of my locomotives, which sadly have never been drained and are suffering greatly from it. 

Anybody (besides Steve S) wanna buy 'em (maybe even cheap)?


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John, why not? Semper Vaporo did not say at which temperature he stores his engines;-)... It would be a rather bubbly equilibrium, though... Chris, you would need about 400 Celsjus for water to turn into vapor (to some better known as steam;-) and the pressure would reach about 150 bar in a vessel of the size of our boilers, if I looked it up correctly. Please check for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam Best, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

PS sorry, 350 Celsius. Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

George, but Teflon is both hydrophobic and oleophobic and Teflon seals are not easily wetted. Of both I prefer your water escape through the oil soaked paper seals;-), Zubi BTW water/oil displacement in porous media such as paper, used to be a fashionable research topic among some of my colleagues, here is the link to a book chapter on invasion percolation in precisely the context you are talking about: invasion percolation


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

John Allman said:
Im going back to check on the destruction of my locomotives, which sadly have never been drained and are suffering greatly from it. 
Anybody (besides Steve S) wanna buy 'em (maybe even cheap)?

Gosh John, I would just add them to my stable of "_already ruined_ " loco's.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 12 Oct 2009 04:52 PM 
Semper Vaporo, this sure is a mystery and I have never heard of it happening with water, although whisky and other alcohol based substances do show this tendency... My main suspect is still the open blower, water vapor, like any gas will try to escape, albeit very slowly due to very low pressure. I would also suspect drain valves slowly letting water out, but then, if you run the loco, the same slightly leaking valve would start dripping. Unless, it seals when hot... Best, Zubi 
Zubi:
The discussion is not about steam, rather water left in a boiler instead of emptying the boiler. The question is, what is the source of the discrepancy between the amount of water originally stored versus the amount of water remaining at the end of that storage period. I do not believe there was any aspect or question of steam being stored as you referred to. 

Background: 
I think it's a fair assumption that Charles stores his locomotive(s) at ambient, i.e., room temperature. It would be pretty silly (WADR Charles) to store them in a fridge or hot oven - of course I could be wrong. Some do want their loco's kept really, really fresh; while others always want them well done. Personally, I'm of the former persuasion.Vapors? Water in a saucer left in the open after some period of time (depending...) disappears. As if by magic, it evaporated - never having become steam. "In the atmosphere at ordinary temperatures, gaseous water is known as water vapor..." Re: Google, "vapor" Not to be confused with The Vapors.


Residual water stored in the boiler at ambient temperature does have an atmosphere within the boiler; the water and the atmosphere in the boiler are in a constant state of interaction as described by Dynamic Equilibrium above. Just as the atmosphere outside the locomotive and the locomotive's various seals, etc., continually react with one another as George described above. The same cycle of evaporation, water vapor and condensation also is a fundamental of the earth and the earth's atmosphere. Re: Google, "evaporation in a closed container" 

A simple experiment. A sealed jar half full of water; store it at room temperature. Come back in some time and eventually you will see the jar walls beaded with water droplets from evaporation and condensation because of Dynamic or Evaporate Equilibrium.

Little more water left behind...
I remembered one other thing that will also account for some of the difference in water stored versus water removed after storage. Again, maybe small but these things do add up. 

Lacking precise scientific knowledge and lacking a better term I'll call it "adhesion" (fill in the correct term if your so possessed, nevertheless...) Drink all the water in a glass, put the glass down and there will be a small amount of water at the bottom of the glass. It got stuck to the walls of the glass, adhered, on it's way out but slowly fell back to the bottom. It is near impossible to get all the water out of that damn glass no matter how hard you try. The 'near' part; save with a towel or letting the glass stand until the water evaporates. So when you pour water out of a container you're always going to leave some water behind and that doesn't necessarily account for the water trapped in nooks and crannies inside the boiler. The same holds true for the water stored in a locomotive boiler, pour it out and some will be left behind. I wonder if a Teflon glass or a Teflon boiler would would let more water out? 


What's the source of all this brilliance ? Certainly not me.
I walked into my garage yesterday and noticed a half bottle of distilled water, fogged over inside with water droplets clinging to the inside walls. Later I drank a whole glass of water setting the glass down low-n-behold some water remained at the bottom of the glass. The natural world is truly full of wonders. Darndest thing common sense, sometimes - and two moments on the same day, amazing.

Zubi, If I can be of any further help please don't hesitate to ask.


Furthering my compliant...
This thread continues to be academic to steaming. I suppose it's bewildering that I should be decrying academics given my predilections. But there you are...

Were we only able to stop counting angels on the head of this damn pin !!! ??? The house will be betting against that, and we all know the house always wins.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Chris, the problem with your theory at room temperature is that the probability of all water molecules turning into vapor is rather small... And even if this happened, it would not last very long. Higher temperatures substantially increase this probability up to a point where the event becomes pretty certain past the phase transition temperature (at a constant volume, assuming Semper Vaporo were to keep his blower valves closed;-). Best, Zubi


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## AzRob (Sep 14, 2009)

Posted By zubi on 15 Oct 2009 05:10 PM 
Chris, the problem with your theory at room temperature is that the probability of all water molecules turning into vapor is rather small...


Not to jump on things like a flea, and especially as a newcomer to large scale live steam, but as a scientist I've got to also comment on this (before anyone asks, no I'm not a chemist - I'm trained as a paleobiologist and work as school teacher). Considering the small volumes of water we are dealing with, the probability of the water all turning to vapor is fairly high, even at room temperature. Of course I am coming from Arizona, with low RH and relatively higher temps than most places, but if you leave a glass of water out, it will begin to evaporate. If there are any minor leaks in the system, they will serve as an escape point for the vapor. Doesn't have to be large, since we're not talking about much.
Coincidentally, on my steamers I purposely leave the filler valve off after steaming in order to evaporate any excess water out into the atmosphere that remains on the vessel walls due to surface tension. It is no mystery to me where that water goes!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 15 Oct 2009 04:35 PM 


Posted By zubi on 12 Oct 2009 04:52 PM 
Semper Vaporo, this sure is a mystery and I have never heard of it happening with water, although whisky and other alcohol based substances do show this tendency... My main suspect is still the open blower, water vapor, like any gas will try to escape, albeit very slowly due to very low pressure. I would also suspect drain valves slowly letting water out, but then, if you run the loco, the same slightly leaking valve would start dripping. Unless, it seals when hot... Best, Zubi 
Zubi:
The discussion is not about steam, rather water left in a boiler instead of emptying the boiler. The question is, what is the source of the discrepancy between the amount of water originally stored versus the amount of water remaining at the end of that storage period. I do not believe there was any aspect or question of steam being stored as you referred to. 

Background: 
I think it's a fair assumption that Charles stores his locomotive(s) at ambient, i.e., room temperature. It would be pretty silly (WADR Charles) to store them in a fridge or hot oven - of course I could be wrong. Some do want their loco's kept really, really fresh; while others always want them well done. Personally, I'm of the former persuasion.Vapors? Water in a saucer left in the open after some period of time (depending...) disappears. As if by magic, it evaporated - never having become steam. "In the atmosphere at ordinary temperatures, gaseous water is known as water vapor..." Re: Google, "vapor" Not to be confused with The Vapors.


Residual water stored in the boiler at ambient temperature does have an atmosphere within the boiler; the water and the atmosphere in the boiler are in a constant state of interaction as described by Dynamic Equilibrium above. Just as the atmosphere outside the locomotive and the locomotive's various seals, etc., continually react with one another as George described above. The same cycle of evaporation, water vapor and condensation also is a fundamental of the earth and the earth's atmosphere. Re: Google, "evaporation in a closed container" 

A simple experiment. A sealed jar half full of water; store it at room temperature. Come back in some time and eventually you will see the jar walls beaded with water droplets from evaporation and condensation because of Dynamic or Evaporate Equilibrium.

Little more water left behind...
I remembered one other thing that will also account for some of the difference in water stored versus water removed after storage. Again, maybe small but these things do add up. 

Lacking precise scientific knowledge and lacking a better term I'll call it "adhesion" (fill in the correct term if your so possessed, nevertheless...) Drink all the water in a glass, put the glass down and there will be a small amount of water at the bottom of the glass. It got stuck to the walls of the glass, adhered, on it's way out but slowly fell back to the bottom. It is near impossible to get all the water out of that damn glass no matter how hard you try. The 'near' part; save with a towel or letting the glass stand until the water evaporates. So when you pour water out of a container you're always going to leave some water behind and that doesn't necessarily account for the water trapped in nooks and crannies inside the boiler. The same holds true for the water stored in a locomotive boiler, pour it out and some will be left behind. I wonder if a Teflon glass or a Teflon boiler would would let more water out? 


What's the source of all this brilliance ? Certainly not me.
I walked into my garage yesterday and noticed a half bottle of distilled water, fogged over inside with water droplets clinging to the inside walls. Later I drank a whole glass of water setting the glass down low-n-behold some water remained at the bottom of the glass. The natural world is truly full of wonders. Darndest thing common sense, sometimes - and two moments on the same day, amazing.

Zubi, If I can be of any further help please don't hesitate to ask.


Furthering my compliant...
This thread continues to be academic to steaming. I suppose it's bewildering that I should be decrying academics given my predilections. But there you are...

Were we only able to stop counting angels on the head of this damn pin !!! ??? The house will be betting against that, and we all know the house always wins.


Well, I had to google "WADR" to see if I had been insulted... what does "Wideband Acoustic Delay Radar" have to do with this??? 

Okay, okay, all kidding aside... I did find what I think you meant (With All Due Respect)... the problem is... am I due any respect at all... like good ol' Rodney Dangerfield; "I don't get no respect! I tell ya, I don't get no respect, at all!"

Anyway, are you people telling me that you don't keep your engines in the deep freeze between runs???? Aren't you afraid they'll spoil?

....

When I run out of clean dishes and can't get to the store to get more paper plates and need something on which to serve my caviar and grits, I do the dishes and generally do a few more than I need right at the moment, so the rest are stacked on the other side of the sink in a drainer rack and they generally are dry in less than an hour or so. But that is "out in the open" where air can flow relatively freely across them to allow the water to evaporate into the ambient air of my house (such as it is). I do consider that the general living quarters of my house is "dry" in the winter as I don't have a humidifier on the furnace nor run a standalone one... How-some-ever... I have to run TWO DEhimidifiers down in the dungeon... errr ahhh... basement all the time, spring, summer, fall and winter, or my tools rust!

The boiler, on the other hand does not allow for the free flow of air in and out of the boiler. The only known deliberate "open" openings are the throttle and blower valves, other "holes" are left closed (filler plug in place, safety valves are still fitted, etc.). The path from the throttle to the outside is quite convoluted and involves several places where there are threads for fittings, some of which are above the normal water line and some that "can" be below the waterline during normal operation, but none that are below the water line of a nearly empty boiler. There are no openings in the lower third of the boiler capacity. Airborne vapor could only get out by going past at least one "seal" in the throttle piping; either at a gland for the Steam distribution valves over the cylinders or past the piston rings to the exhaust stand of which ever cylinder is stopped in a position where the valve is open to allow steam in one end and exhaust out the other. One or both of the steam distribution valves could also be dislodged from a fully seated position to allow air/vapor flow under it from the steam side to the exhaust side. There is only one "direct" path from the boiler to the outside world and that is the blower and it is about 10 inches of 1/8 (OD) inch diameter pipe, which is might narrow in cross section! Throttle piping is about the same.


Before I retired I kept my house quite cool during the day, having a thermostat with a clock control... Heat came up in the AM about 1/2 hour before I was scheduled to get up and went off about 1/2 hour before I left for work. Then it came back up again 1/2 hour before I usually got home and stayed up until I was about to go to bed when it again reverted to the overnight temperature. Night temp was set to 60, day temp was 55. The temp for when I was home was set to 68. Weekend day temps were 68 all day, but the "on" time in the morning was much later than during the week. Now that I am retired I did not change the settings, but I have reverted back to my "infant" stage where I am asleep most of the daylight hours and awake all night, there is no telling what the thermostat is set to as I go change it on every chill or whim I have (my heating bill has gone up a wee bit since I retired, but, thankfully, due to sweaters and such, not too much!).

I have considered that the temperature swings may have acted as a "pump" to work air in and out of the boiler and that was my "excuse" for the phenomenon of a dry boiler in the spring.

I am setting up to do an experiment... I have one of my engines on the dining room table and the other in the "croquet set" carrying case I use. I will drain the boilers as best as I can and put a measured amount of blue tinted water in them and put them back where they were. I will record the level of water on the water glass of each of them. In addition, I will put some Christmas package wrapping paper under them to see if I can detect water that might drip out during storage. I think I have some cheap stuff that the color on the paper will "run" and the paper will wrinkle if it gets wet.

Some time in the spring I will again measure the level of water on the gauge glass of each engine and check the paper for wrinkles and water spots and report back what I find.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

*OK! *

*I've ordered my own personal electron microscope so we can finally answer any more questions that may arise about water.*


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

I personally use purple panther urine, processed by steam distillation.


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## Bill4373 (Jan 3, 2008)

In an emergency, I buy a GALLON of steam distilled water for 79 cents.......


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Weight the boiler, if stored separately, or the complete loco if it's stored immediately prior to storage and again when removed from storage to determine the amount water lost during storage, if any. This method would be more accurate than pouring the water out since the effects of condensation and adhesion will be eliminated as indeterminate variables. This would also obviate the need for replacing the boiler water with blue tinted water. Replacing the water would introduce the condensation and adhesion variables as these will remain from the original boiler water potentially distorting the results. Of course the condensation and adhesion effects from the original residual water would potentially be negated by the condensation and adhesion water remaining in the boiler when the blue tinted water, if this method is used, is removed for measurement. The paper diaper on the loco's belly would still be useful for spotting any leakage. 

Then again the blue tint added to the replacement water could affect the condensation and adhesion processes which would therefore affect the results and render the result of measuring the water volume still unanswered precisely. Tests on the affects of the blue tint might be answered with the electron microscope but this would require an entirely separate set of controlled experiments. Personally I'd contract this set of experiment out to a professional and certified lab. This would save the personal expense of purchasing a home DIY electron microscope - after all those things require regular, long and complex calibration which I know can be just a real bitch. 

PS: My wife sprays mountain lion urine on her prized roses to fend off the deer who seem to think of her roses as a tasty delicacy, possibly desert to their normal nightly foraging. But collecting the mountain lion's urine does present its own unique set of problems. I don't know if the mountain lion, or lions, from which she collects the urine are purple as she is the one who actually does the collecting. She seems to have a way with the lions, maybe she only collects urine from female lions? But I do know she does not distill the urine. It only works in its pure form just as it comes from the lion's bladder.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 8, 2009)

This topic keeps drifting from engineering and science to science fiction and other fantastic streches of the mind!!!! 

For anyone who ever gets this far in the future here is a link to George's water test thread: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/112412/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Bruce, I saw an electron microscope at a University of Texas surplus equipment acution and it was a neat piece of gear but the thing that hit home is they are really big, and will not fit in most mad inventor basement labs. 
Dan


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan,

By the way I am taking up a collection to raise funds for the purchase. Anyone wishing to donate can send money to:


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Yesterday I asked the esteemed Cliff at Accucraft about boiler corrosion. In 10 years at Accucraft, he knows of zero cases of boiler corrosion problems in copper boilers. Ditto for his experience in other scales. If they are fed only distilled water, they should not care if they are drained after every use or not. He was a bit less positive about brass boilers - no known cases, but more potential problems.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

George, I think you are somewhat trivializing the matter. Of course Cliff is an esteemed person and a friend to many of us. He has daily experience with mostly new locomotives. But to the best of my knowledge, he does not study electrochemistry of water, copper and zinc. Also, once the boiler leaves Accucraft, it usually does not come back and nobody evaluates the thickness of copper oxide on the inner walls, or zinc leaching effects on the fittings. In other words, problems, whether they exist or not, remain unknown. In fact, I am not even sure whether he tests old boilers which he receives after some years of use. 10 years is not that long. In fact, in a similar conversation with a Japanese manufacturer, I have been told that no single known case of their boiler failure exists, and that is in 30 years. On the other hand, I have personally witnessed a meltdown of one (gas fired). Anyway, I think that what you are suggesting is that it is safe to use and indefinitely store distilled water in the boiler. What I am suggesting is that it is safe to use soft to moderate tap water too, but it is better to drain the boiler. Also, I do not think that there is any problem with de-ionised water and it can be safely used. But I would drain the boiler after use. While it is safe to use, I am a bit puzzled about storing distilled water, or as you do, (effectively) soft water obtained from boiling away distilled water. So far, you presented your measurements, which show low levels of copper and zinc but say nothing about copper oxide thickness and therefore nothing about copper corrosion. Solubility of copper oxide is very low in (close to) neutral water, it is more soluble in lower pH as we discussed here before. But probably still below detectability levels using your strips. In the meantime I consulted almost 40 recent scientific papers on copper and zinc corrosion. I can send them all to you. I still intend to summarize this info, but what emerges is not a very transparent picture, and also I did not really have time for this. One problem is that it is very difficult to find any research dealing with copper in pure water (distilled, de-ionised, etc), as there is very little need for doing this (except for very specific applications, such as nuclear). Essentially all research deals with (simulated) tap water, or sea water and other frequently encountered environments, or alternatively, with simulated aggressive environments in order to study accelerated corrosion. This is why this short paper with a photo of a copper sheet sitting for 15 years in distilled water is so unique and convincing to me: http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/archive/00045/Hultquist-Szak_los_o_45254a.pdf It is now pretty evident that in distilled water copper corrodes even without atmospheric oxygen. There are following questions, how much faster (or slower?) would it corrode with extra oxygen? What is the stability of the oxide in this case, in other words does it reach a certain thickness and stop growing or does it continue growing. There is no question, that our boilers are covered with oxide, but there is a question of the stability and growth morphology of this oxide. Brass is much more complicated, so I will not even begin with stating the questions for now, perhaps some other time. Finally, should we care? That is a personal choice I would say, as this is a hobby intended to be fun, and not a critical application. Some people may find more enjoyment in caring for their equipment (even unnecessarily), others may prefer the joy of fully care-free running and (even accelerated) aging of their stuff. The only remaining essential variable is safety and for this we have (regular) boiler tests. Best, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I was looking for information about vinegar for cleaning track and the search came up with this old thread of mine instead. I still hardly ever let my Aristo live steam Mikado out of its box but I have given a few water distillers away to local live steamers.

Rereading this old thread reminded me of the question about using distilled water once again. I use distilled water with my CPAP machine but that's about all I do with it.

This thread reminded me that there are some very smart people here on MLS many of whom I have lost touch with over the years.

I have really enjoyed reading and appreciated the quality of information that others have posted on this topic. Perhaps others will also enjoy it.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's always fun to dredge up old threads and get a chemistry lesson from Zubi, I had forgotten this one. It was indeed a good discussion.

Greg


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

;-)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be clear, it was indeed a compliment!

Greg


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

;-), thank you Greg, and others interested in water! best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Zubi,

It is nice to know that you are still around and still in Tokyo.

I hope the others will check in as well.

Have there been any new developments in the world of live steam since this topic?

I did not understand much of the discussion then or now but it was and is both interesting and informative.

I am just curious - I am still an outsider looking in.

Best regards to you and to the others.

Jerry


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jerry, thank you for the kind words! And thank you for pouring some new spirit into this old water topic. I am glad to see that you consider it informative and I hope that it will be useful for other live steam enthusiasts, both novice and profs. What changed in live steam (on 45mm)? There have never been better times to do this hobby than now. With so many new engines - which just a few years ago would be considered a mere utopia, I wish I had more time to enjoy the hobby and discuss the eternal water matter;-)... With best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We could talk about which is the best steam oil ha ha!

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

zubi said:


> Jerry, thank you for the kind words! And thank you for pouring some new spirit into this old water topic. I am glad to see that you consider it informative and I hope that it will be useful for other live steam enthusiasts, both novice and profs. What changed in live steam (on 45mm)? There have never been better times to do this hobby than now. With so many new engines - which just a few years ago would be considered a mere utopia, I wish I had more time to enjoy the hobby and discuss the eternal water matter;-)... With best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


Hi Zubi,

I may be (and will continue to be) an outsider in that operating my only live steamer (to me personally) is too much effort to enjoy more than infrequently just as operating a 1:1 steam loco in a 125 degree (F) cab in the summer would not be fun to me.

That said, it is the model steam trains that drew me to this hobby and keep me in it. 

Sometimes I enjoy and appreciate more what others have done and are doing and have accomplished without the desire or ability to do those things myself.

If money was not a factor an Aster Big Boy would be at the top of my want list but I would get more pleasure watching someone else run theirs.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> We could talk about which is the best steam oil ha ha!
> 
> Greg


Or which is better, Accucraft or Aster!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dave (and Greg), do not trivialise water - water is a complex fluid. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS Steam oil is a simple choice of desired viscosity. Accucraft or Aster? Roundhouse, of course.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

In the future, though doubtful, a source of bonafide, authoritative, accurate, concise and complete information on boilers.


*The National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors*
http://www.nationalboard.org/default.aspx

Three of the many articles including official standards, research and the study of boilers....

*How to Distroy a Boiler; Parts 1, 2 & 3.*
http://www.nationalboard.org/Index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=238
.
.
.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

that's interesting reading Chris, but isn't a major part of this discussion based on copper or brass boilers that are soldered together?

I think there's an additional dimension with the materials as compared to iron and steel..

(I get the water treatment part)... 

Also, I don't think anyone was using distilled or deionized water in 1:1 stuff in the majority of cases.

Regards, Greg

(Zubi, I never trivialized water's "complexity")


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

The martinis proved far too dry for the guests assembled.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

> Also, I don't think anyone was using distilled or deionized water in 1:1 stuff in the majority of cases.


There's a story in MacGregor's, "South Pacific Coast" book where they used to put cow poop in the boiler water to seal minor leaks until full repairs could be scheduled in the Newark shops. It seems an apprentice was tasked with fixing a leak in a water tank that supplied drinking water to the railroad yard, and decided to use the same trick. Many of the shop personnel came down with dysentery. The apprentice quit. LOL!!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight

I have heard that horse apples had been used to seal water lines. 

Chuck


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## Steamer91 (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, what was recommended for me was using a solution of 1/2 distilled water and 1/2 white vinegar and steaming the locomotive up light engine (preferably outside since the vinegar's going to reek to high heaven), then rinsing the boiler out with straight distilled then steaming the thing up again on distilled to flush out the deposits in the boiler, the water glass, and all the steam pipes.

I was told this only needs to be done once, maybe twice a year.

Hope it helps,
Brendan O.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Steamer91 said:


> Well, what was recommended for me was using a solution of 1/2 distilled water and 1/2 white vinegar and steaming the locomotive up light engine (preferably outside since the vinegar's going to reek to high heaven), then rinsing the boiler out with straight distilled then steaming the thing up again on distilled to flush out the deposits in the boiler, the water glass, and all the steam pipes.
> 
> I was told this only needs to be done once, maybe twice a year.
> 
> ...


It doesn't really help without referencing the source to back up the recomendation.

However - what really does help is that you've found this old thread and brought it back to life with all it's interesting discussion and information.

I'm especially grateful as it tends to bear out what I've been saying in a couple of more recent threads about adding 5% tap water to distilled or deionised water to satisfy it's affinity for ions.

At 5% concentration, even the hardest water will not cause a scaling problem if the boiler is regularly drained or blown down.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Brendan;
Several old hands at this years and years ago gave me a clipping of a very old article on cleaning one of our a boilers. You can tell it's from a British source. 
_"What I usually do, is to give the boiler a jolly good boil out with a strong solution of washing soda, taking care not to let any get down to the cylinders, and keeping all valves shut. The boiler is filled as full as possible, after the boiling, adding more soda solution, or topping up with hot water. The solution is left in for a full day ; then boiled up again, emptied out, and the boiler given a thorough wash out with hot water. "_

It's kind of your grandmothers solution. At least my grandmother kept a box around for all sorts of things. Seems to work every time for me. I suppose you could use vinegar just as well. It's a simple mildly acidic solution and that's the kind of action you want to use. It certainly wont hurt the boiler.

What is washing soda:
Washing soda, also known as sodium carbonate or soda ash, is a white powder used in homes and manufacturing industries. In homes, washing soda is useful in removing stains, such as those from grease and oil, and softening hard water for laundering. 

Washing soda acts as a descaling agent to remove limescale found in water heaters, kettles and boilers. It is also a food additive and commonly used as a raising agent, stabilizer and anti-caking agent.

The glass-manufacturing industry uses washing soda as an ingredient for making glass. The cotton industry uses the compound as a neutralizing agent, and the brick industry uses it as a wetting agent.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Swingle's Modern Locomotive Engineering Handy Book 1905*

When I started this topic I never expected that almost 7 years later it would still be active.

I appreciate all the very interesting and informative posts that everyone has contributed.

As I have read over the hundreds of posts it occurred to me that some of you might appreciate some additional information from Swingle's book that I had referenced.

For those who may be interested, I have scanned his Chapters on Heat and on Water:









http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...Engineering/Modern Locomotive Engineering.pdf

My references to Additives for distilled water? were based on Swingle's comments on pages 30 - 33

I happily remain a amateur regarding Live Steam but I have really enjoyed re-reading all the posts on this topic.

I wonder how many of us could have answered the questions on pages 42 - 44?

Heck, I could not answer any of it. I don't think I could have qualified as a Fireman 110 years ago yet today I get to play engineer with a real 1:29 live steam locomotive (and I can barely manage that).

I found it interesting that I did not find a single reference in all of the posts to the Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado yet that was the one and only Live Steam Locomotive that ever managed to convince me to part with the money to buy it.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Steamer91 (Oct 13, 2011)

John 842 said:


> It doesn't really help without referencing the source to back up the recomendation.
> 
> However - what really does help is that you've found this old thread and brought it back to life with all it's interesting discussion and information.
> 
> ...


Apologies for not listing the source lads, I got the recommendation from an article by Kevin O'Connor that's up on Southern Steam Trains, which is a dealer for Aster live steam locomotives. The article in question is called "Getting Started with Frank S.", and it tells about the Frank S. Locomotive that Aster made for LGB years ago and how to run it and take good care of it should you find one.

http://southernsteamtrains.com/notes/franks1.htm

The passage in question dealing with boiler washing and vinegar goes thus:

"Now that I’ve beaten steam lubrication to death let’s get on with a proven method to get a Frank S. into steam with a minimum of fuss and frustration. The methods and techniques that I will present in this series on the Frank S. are applicable to any small-scale live steam locomotive, but they are only one interpretation of many now in use. I feel confident that they work because these are the procedures that I use each time I steam my locomotive. I invite constructive criticism and positive input from others in the small-scale live steam community with regard to new data aimed at furthering the hobby and the knowledge thereof. 

The first order of business is boiler water. The only acceptable boiler quality water is DISTILLED WATER, period. Even using distilled water will not prevent some mineral deposits from being formed in the boiler and the steam delivery piping and valves. At the end of each running session, or once a year, or any regular interval that suits your schedule, it will pay to fill the boiler with a mixture of ½ distilled water to ½ white vinegar and to steam the locomotive light engine (no consist/rake).

Use the same mixtures for boiler make up and operate the engine for about one hour. The weak acid in the vinegar will dissolve the mineral sale deposits in the locomotive’s team generating and delivery systems and you will be good to go for some time. After the locomotive cools, drain out the remaining mixture, refill with straight distilled water, and run the unit under load till the “kitchen” smell dissipates."

I know this probably won't hurt the boiler and the steam pipes, but what about the valves and the pistons? Both my engines are Accucraft-made (an AML 0-6-0 and a Ruby 0-4-0), and neither has had a wash in the time I've owned them, so I was considering doing the "1/2 and 1/2 method" described by Mr. O'Connor, one trip with half vinegar and half distilled water, then a good rinse out with distilled and then running the engines normally with straight distilled until the smell dissipates to clear out all the vinegar in the steam circuit.


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