# Rear Smoking Virginian



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Didn't know where else to put this.

I saw an MTH Virginian 4-6-6-6-2 today. Quite the locomotive! Interestingly, there is a stack at the back of the tender and it has a smoke unit in it. The question no one could answer was what is that rear stack for? There is a set of drivers under the tender, part of the triplex lashup. But I would imagine it would get its steam from the main boiler. Is there some kind of firebox in the tender to reheat the steam or something?


Very curious indeed!


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

* Michael,

The stack on the tender of the triplex was for the exhaust from the cylinders under the tender. The firebox precluded running the exhaust from the tender cylinders forward to the main stack.

Jim
*


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. The one 'Virginian' never really got past the testing phase. 

I'm always fascinated by what modelers desire and what the toy companies supply. 

Dave


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

There were only 4 built, 3 Erie and 1 Virginian in 1913/1914. They were too powerful to pull as the couplers were not strong enough. As a result they ended up as pushers and were ultimately phased out by 1929. The other issue the Triplex had was that as fuel was burned/used off the tender, its weight would reduce resulting in slippage in the rear drive. 


A unit like this is a great collector's item as it had a real story. 

gg



PS: refer to it as a 4-8-8-8-2. (Erie) I think the Virginian was a 4-8-8-8-4 ?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

And to think the model manufactures could have built a loco that was more in mass production in real life and more desirable than this unit. I guess if its steam folks will buy it. Later RJD


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 04/06/2009 4:08 PM
And to think the model manufactures could have built a loco that was more in mass production in real life and more desirable than this unit. I guess if its steam folks will buy it. Later RJD




Personally, if something is rare or unique and NOT a mass production unit, I would consider this to be of unique value and as such a need to get based on my personal whims. This being said, can you buy a Triplex on the market (new) today or is MTH sold out of this run? 

OK, if sold out and if only 4 prototypes were built in the real world, would this not create demand in the collectors or LS world? 


Supply and demand. The market for this Triplex would be determined by the units history not whether it was mass produced. 


gg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. The one 'Virginian' never really got past the testing phase. 

I'm always fascinated by what modelers desire and what the toy companies supply. 

Dave 




.....Versus something a bit more practical for a typical large scale railway, such as a Ma&Pa 2-8-0, Frisco 4-6-0, GN H4 Pacific, Russian 2-10-0, etc....


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Spule 4 on 04/06/2009 7:10 PM
Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. The one 'Virginian' never really got past the testing phase. 

I'm always fascinated by what modelers desire and what the toy companies supply. 

Dave 




.....Versus something a bit more practical for a typical large scale railway, such as a Ma&Pa 2-8-0, Frisco 4-6-0, GN H4 Pacific, Russian 2-10-0, etc.... 


Vs what practical railway in LS or otherwise? Is any of the above Locos more "practical" when it comes to collecting or modelling? Yes and I ask again.... do people get a high off a Ma&Pa 2-8-0..? Issue is preference and personal whims and tastes. 


Wait 5 years and ask these questions once again on any LS forum as to whether the Triplex is of value or in demand .... 


gg


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. 







Apparently not all that successful in large scale, either. The owner fiddled with it most of the day and never got it to run right. He finally packed it up and put his Big Boy on the track. He's going to ship it back to MTH.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By barnmichael on 04/07/2009 7:24 PM
Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. 







Apparently not all that successful in large scale, either. The owner fiddled with it most of the day and never got it to run right. He finally packed it up and put his Big Boy on the track. He's going to ship it back to MTH.





Shame, has he communicated with Raymond on this via this forum? 




Honestly I went through my my issues with this unit... council is good here.. 




Get your buddy to input with Ray and take it from there. Too much to loose with this rare and delicate loco. 




Yes, rare from a real like sense. My Triplex is now up and going due to Ray and his website. 


gg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it's a bit of "My triplex is bigger than your bigboy!" 

I understood that they didn't produce steam as fast as they used it because of the draft lost because of the rear exhaust.


At the last train show, I pointed out that two Bigboys were on display and a Mallet was hauling the freight


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 04/06/2009 7:18 PM
Posted By Spule 4 on 04/06/2009 7:10 PM
Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. The one 'Virginian' never really got past the testing phase. 

I'm always fascinated by what modelers desire and what the toy companies supply. 

Dave 




.....Versus something a bit more practical for a typical large scale railway, such as a Ma&Pa 2-8-0, Frisco 4-6-0, GN H4 Pacific, Russian 2-10-0, etc.... 


Vs what practical railway in LS or otherwise? Is any of the above Locos more "practical" when it comes to collecting or modelling? Yes and I ask again.... do people get a high off a Ma&Pa 2-8-0..? Issue is preference and personal whims and tastes. 


Wait 5 years and ask these questions once again on any LS forum as to whether the Triplex is of value or in demand .... 


gg 




Well, seing as the Ma and Pa 2-8-0 was one of the most common brass locos in HO and O back in the day. My father's PFM unit from 1961 runs like a watch to this day. This was THE model for quite a while for those with pre WWII layouts.

As Torby pointed out, the "Mine's Bigger" (AKA Otter and Marion Wormer) thing is running rampant in the model railroad hobby now. But how many of these get crammed on to small pikes where a lesser loco would be much more practical, espcially with a couple of the comments just above?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Garrett, 

Valid points and yes with every whim comes a limitation. These bigboys and Triplexes need serious real estate to be enjoyed. Otherwise they become a museum and conversation piece. No doubt some people collect, not to run their loco but to play with them on rollers, talk about their history and visually enjoy. 

gg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

True, and there is something impressive about a "large" loco afterall.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Forgot to mention: 

My Triplex will play outside in the summer and will sit on rollers on top of the Piano in the winter, for "fun" and to blast the eardrums out (for guests).


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

For the money and time spent fixing it sure is not something I would invest in no matter how rare it may be. For a loco like that it should be perfect out of the box when one considers the cost. Later RJD


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 04/08/2009 5:31 PM
For the money and time spent fixing it sure is not something I would invest in no matter how rare it may be. For a loco like that it should be perfect out of the box when one considers the cost. Later RJD




Yes and so true. 

Due to the original articulated design, the" belly" of this loco can be considered "floppy". Yes the replication recreates the original real live loco, reproduction for G-scale or 1-gauge is another. This creates an issue on shipping and how one does it. 


MTH did a great job in locking up the X-Y movement for shipment purposes. What I see in the damage to my unit is the lack of attention to to what one would call the third dimension... the "Z" factor. 

All damage to my loco can be attributed to the Z factor when one works the physics. (Think 3-D forces here)


Simple as that. 

There are those who say Bull to this.

I say:

Rule # 1 as it applies to shipping goods is ZERO[/b] movement in the package / goods proper. Especially with "non-dense" shipments like a Triplex or any articulated unit. 



Rule # 2 is: Please see rule #1. 


Rule #3 is... if you do not get the message over rule #1 or rule # 2, enjoy the damage. 


Life is very subjective. 

gg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Forgot, examine ACCUCRAFT.... 

Hear on the QT that they are masters in ZERO movement. 

There is a cost however as a percentage of product and related frustrations... 


CHEAP....oops .... did I say ... "good for business?"


gg



EDIT... again... think delivery of product... not satisfied? Migrate platforms. Hence my comments on DCS VS DCC.. room for both ... thing is I can get local support for DCC vs DCS.. 

Something to think about in this business. Product support that is local is critical. By local I mean within a several hundred mile radius. 

Not countries apart. Especially as it applies to warranty issues. 


gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Dude, you talk alot...... HE HE HE







*


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 04/08/2009 8:22 PM
*Dude, you talk alot...... HE HE HE







* 


Now, Nick.... need I scold you once again.... ?

You are like Semper I say... 


MOI... talk alot???? 

Where in heck did you get that idea from?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 04/08/2009 9:02 PM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 04/08/2009 8:22 PM
*Dude, you talk alot...... HE HE HE







* 


Now, Nick.... need I scold you once again.... ?

You are like Semper I say... 


MOI... talk alot???? 

Where in heck did you get that idea from?











How'd I get drug into this?????










At least I'm in good company, eh Nick?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

HE HE HE all in good fun







needed to break the topic up a little, it was getting a little stale. ha ha ha ...........








PS my Triplex arrive yesterday in good shape with no breakage or damage i will post photos soon.


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

GG is right on track about zero movement in the carton. My oldest brother ran a radio - later TV - business and would send radios to customers who received them in perfect condition. 

His method worked for him and and works for me. Package the delicate article so it CANNOT move in its carton. Then place that carton inside a larger box with 1 or more inches of padding on all six sides. Delicate article will arrive safely. (This was before 'peanuts' arrived on the scene; he used wadded-up newspaper.)

Strangely, or perhaps not so strange, my two Annies came from Trainland that way: Box within a box with styrofoam or foam on all six sides between the two boxes.

The bigger box and padding will absorb the shocks and what-all it gets during its sojourn while the precious cargo is isolated from all these going-ons.

Art


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 04/07/2009 7:31 PM
Posted By barnmichael on 04/07/2009 7:24 PM
Posted By cephius on 04/06/2009 11:26 AM
My reading of the history of Triplex Articulated Steam Locomotives is that they were not successful in real life. 







Apparently not all that successful in large scale, either. The owner fiddled with it most of the day and never got it to run right. He finally packed it up and put his Big Boy on the track. He's going to ship it back to MTH.





Shame, has he communicated with Raymond on this via this forum? 



gg 






That's a bit of annoyance with me. There are a couple of our club members on LSOL and seem to be convinced that is the only LS forum worth looking at. They tell anyone who asks that there no point to look elsewhere. The rest of them can barely do email.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 04/06/2009 4:43 PM
Posted By aceinspp on 04/06/2009 4:08 PM
And to think the model manufactures could have built a loco that was more in mass production in real life and more desirable than this unit. I guess if its steam folks will buy it. Later RJD




Personally, if something is rare or unique and NOT a mass production unit, I would consider this to be of unique value and as such a need to get based on my personal whims. This being said, can you buy a Triplex on the market (new) today or is MTH sold out of this run? 

OK, if sold out and if only 4 prototypes were built in the real world, would this not create demand in the collectors or LS world? 


Supply and demand. The market for this Triplex would be determined by the units history not whether it was mass produced. 


gg




The Triplex is a fascinating engine design and is really interersting to watch run. Been very happy with the choice to add them to the roster. On availablitiy, based on the fact Nick has had to wait a while and from what I've been told their first run was pretty quickly sold out. 

The 2009 catalog is due out this month with no word on what's next.









Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Hmmmm_150kbs.wmv


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 04/08/2009 7:14 AM
I think it's a bit of "My triplex is bigger than your bigboy!" 

I understood that they didn't produce steam as fast as they used it because of the draft lost because of the rear exhaust.


At the last train show, I pointed out that two Bigboys were on display and a Mallet was hauling the freight









Torby,









MTH Big Boy vs Arsto Mallet


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Chuck, that video you posted just KILLED ME !!!







What a hoot. 

Tom, the Triplex apparently had steam supply issues to the rear tender, which contributed to its real life demise. 


Chuck, are you able to test the triplex against the MTH big boy? That would be fun! 

gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

LOL

The triplex pull force if I remember correctly is around 4.5 lbs(avg), the big boy is 7.5lbs(avg). (The triplex is a lighter engine and has one less axle with traction tires per engine set) 

When I did my original pull test the Mallet pulled an avg of 2.5 lbs. I did another Big Boy pull test and it can just about pull two Mallets to a stall with it's stock weight. (Can't quite pull them backwards)


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick,

Glad to hear yours finally came with no damage. Must not have come via UPS.







Actually because of all the shipping damage, MTH had UPS reps out at their headquarters not long ago and did drop tests from the specified height UPS said they should be able to stand and they all passed without breakage. It was very clear from the results of those tests that UPS is exposing the engines to a significantly greater fall then they are supposed to. One reason why I'm moving all my shipping business to Fedex.


Raymond


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 04/13/2009 5:22 PM
Nick,

Glad to hear yours finally came with no damage. Must not have come via UPS.







Actually because of all the shipping damage, MTH had UPS reps out at their headquarters not long ago and did drop tests from the specified height UPS said they should be able to stand and they all passed without breakage. It was very clear from the results of those tests that UPS is exposing the engines to a significantly greater fall then they are supposed to. One reason why I'm moving all my shipping business to Fedex.


Raymond





Yes one Co called UPS.... 


not good... attitude issues there. 

gg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 04/13/2009 5:16 PM
LOL

The triplex pull force if I remember correctly is around 4.5 lbs(avg), the big boy is 7.5lbs(avg). (The triplex is a lighter engine and has one less axle with traction tires per engine set) 

When I did my original pull test the Mallet pulled an avg of 2.5 lbs. I did another Big Boy pull test and it can just about pull two Mallets to a stall with it's stock weight. (Can't quite pull them backwards)


Raymond




Re the VIDEO: 

These Mallets must have been light weight compared to say the Bigboy etc. The issue is weight yes? 

Loco "weight" combined with "rubber on the rail" is a major factor in who pulls who. 


Putting things in perspective is what I see here and yes I just loved the MTH (1:32) loco hauling in the Aristo (1:29) into its "den" for a feast.... What a paradigm...







(my read on the video... others will take a different read) 


Classic fun... have fun with this... 



gg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

The Mallets are lighter but the biggest factor is the traction tires. (Mallet has none, MTH Big Boy has two axles per engine set) For every oz of weight added, with an engine with traction tires you get an order of magnitude greater pull force increase as opposed to an engine without. So to make a Mallet pull the same load as a the BB you would have to really pile on the weight. There are opponents to the traction tires who don't like them because they eventually wear out but the ones that have come on my MTH engines have lasted. (I think the other mfg in the past that have used them and they've deteriorated must have been poor quality or not the right compound or something) My Challenger is probably around 500 hours of run time over the last 5 years and they still in great shape. It's one reason I prefer them. It is my opinion that you are better off having an engine that can pull the load you want and have it be as light as possible as opposed to having to really put a lot of weight on it because the engine drive train then has to pull it's weight plus the load up the hills causing problems... = more wear and tear on the drive train. But in the end it's probably all moot as most of us wouldn't run our stuff enough anyway to wear a drive train out.


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

LOL See the videos section on my website (for the 'Hmmmm' video) if you want to see higher quality versions of it.


Raymond


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