# About steam oil



## gordini (Jan 12, 2012)

I know there are special steam oils available for our little steam engines, what is the difference between a standard oil and model steam oil. Is it ok to use standard engine oil? Is there any special ''secret'' formula to produce my own oil?
The problem is that i live in Greece and steam oil is not available here so i have to order it and liquids are expensive to ship.

Thomas


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is all you need to know about steam oil: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/misc/steam-oil-hwade.htm


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam oil is much heavier weight oil. Your car uses 30 or 40 wt. Steam oil is on the order of 320 wt and above. Real steam oil also contains tallow (animal fat). Steam oil serves two purposes, lubrication and steam seal.

Steam oil is a great source of heated debate.


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## gordini (Jan 12, 2012)

Very nice and clear article, thank you very [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

And you don't use much steam oil. So once you buy a quart of it you'll have enough for many years, unless you knock it over and spill a bunch like I did. But even with that, I still have the same can of oil that I bought a year and a half ago and I should be good for many more years, unless I get clumsy again.
Bob


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## gordini (Jan 12, 2012)

Another question is what ISO grade to choose, according to Harry wade ISO 460 is good, I have a Ruby is it ok?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gordini on 26 Jan 2012 08:03 AM 

I know there are special steam oils available for our little steam engines, what is the difference between a standard oil and model steam oil. Is it ok to use standard engine oil? Is there any special ''secret'' formula to produce my own oil?
The problem is that i live in Greece and steam oil is not available here so i have to order it and liquids are expensive to ship.

Thomas



Thomas:

At steamlocomotive.com There are 101 locomotives in Greece listed. Most are status unknown or static displays but a few are operating. You might contact one of the operating ones and ask them if they would sell you some steam oil. It is essentially the same as used with out models but check ISO and other specs sometimes the oil is too heavy weight for our models. You might also ask for their source/supplier and follow that trail. Another, do a Google search on "steam locomotives in X"; X being neightboring countries. 

There are also parts suppliers in these countries where you might buy it. Regner in Germany is one such supplier. You might contact them and see if they know a supplier in or near Greece.

The largest organization is in the UK, The G1 MRA (G!MRA); The Gauge One Model Railway Association I'm sure they would be able to point you to a supplier and/or modelers near you. There are small scale live steamers andorganizations in Eurpoean countries you might contact; the countries I know of are France,Germany, Switzerlandand Italy.

The International Steam Pages is another source. There may be other references on the website, the one I found was Railway Museums in Europe - Greece. Again a contact for further contacts.

Last on this list I compiled: TrainNet.org - International Railway Links


Regarding the article mentioned above, The Truth About Steam Oil by Harry Wade (at Southern Steam Trains website). 
While the general information is a good primer some of the tech specs and details are either incorrect or out of date. The most significant of these is the chart of Steam Oils. The column labeled F.P (Flash Point) temperatures are Centigrade not Fahrenheit as per the footnote. Some current suppliers are omittted, some listed are no longer offering products. In general Steam Oil is now referrred to as Gear Oil with many suppliers. Steam oil was found to be excellent for gears since it stuck in the presence of water. the common name change seems due to there being a much wider market for gear oil than steam oil. It's not too difficult to find current suppliers (petroleum suppliers) offering steam or gear oil via a Google search on "Steam Oil Suppliers." It does take some patience wading through their websites to find the exact information you need and the explanatoions/footnotes explaining various unfamiliarr terms in their specs. 

(note: I have exchanged emails with both Harry Wade and Jim Pitts of Southern Steam Trains. Neither was interested in editing/correcting/updating the The Truth About Steam Oil artilce.)


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## Steam Paul 1 (Jun 18, 2010)

It is certainly not a good idea to use standard engine oil as a steam oil because internal damage can result. Use only dedicated steam oils for this purpose. Another good article concerning steam oil and ISO (weight), can be found at the Roundhouse Engineering site, http://roundhouse-eng.com. When the home page comes up, click on FAQS (frequently asked questions), on the menue bar on the left. When the FAQS page comes up, click on "Steam oil - tell me more". Be sure to use an oil with additives, such as tallow, commonly referred to as compound, or compounded oil. These additives allow the oil to emulsify with water and provide a good lubricating film on the internal pieces and parts. Roundhouse is of the opinion that the lower viscosity oils are better suited for our purpose as they do the intended job and are less susceptible to carbonisation in the superheater. 

You will find many different opinions concerning the "best" steam oil to use, it can be a very slippery subject indeed. However, any dedicated steam oil that you use will be far superior to using a standard engine oil. I hope you find this information helpful.

Paul Kenney


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It is essentially the same as used with out models.I disagree as all steam oils aren't created equal. I had some steam oil given to me from a supply for a 1:1 steam locomotive. One day several years back, out of curiosity and with an eye directed to carbonizing and plugged superheater/steam lines, Rob Lenicheck and I did an experiment... we poured a little steam oil into a spoon and heated the underside of the spoon with a torch to determine which carbonized and which didn't. The 1:1 steam oil was the worst and left the most residue, while the stuff sold by Accucraft carbonized the least, and Roundhouse (if memory serves) coming in the middle. Not what one may call a "controlled experiment" to be sure, but we did our best to maintain consistency in each test. 

It was enough to convince us that the higher temperature rating of steam oil sold by Accucraft was a definite plus. Royce also told me some years back that he made sure the stuff he sells was rated for a higher temperature. 

Full sized locomotives don't generally run their steam oil through red hot small diameter tubes the way our models do, nor does that oil sit in that red hot line baking while the locomotive is standing still or building up pressure. Also, the steam oil isn't generally injected until right before it goes into the cylinders, so temperature is less of a consideration. 

MHO for whatever it's worth.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Dwight, 
Likewise, all our locos are not created equally. 
I think that a displacement lubricator should always be connected to the cylinder connection, and NOT to the throttle line before any superheating. 
The lubricator is kept cool, and the temperature will not be a problem for the steam oil. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Not really a deciding factor, but I like the smell of the Accucraft brand steam oil. I also have some green velvet which does not smell as 'mechanical" if you could call it that.

That said, if the best steam oil smelled like a penguin, that is what I'd use.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Good point about the super heaters. I hadnt really thought about it. I suppose that the oil SHOULD just vaporize and seems to be intended to do so but obviously some portion does not and would tend to build up. 

I run some of my engines quite a bit and have not seen any adverse effect but it is worth keeping in mind. I have been using Roundhouse oil with good results. I didn't like the Aristocraft oil...which seemed to congeal in the lubricator leaving a mess to suck out after the run.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that a displacement lubricator should always be connected to the cylinder connection, and NOT to the throttle line before any superheating. In an ideal world I would agree with you David. But that would require re-plumbing every Accucraft loco I own - a job I'm unwilling to take on, especially when the design can be compensated for merely by using the correct steam oil. So far as I know, Accucraft hasn't gone with what most seem to call the "deadleg" lubricator design since the C-16, and even the last run of those had the far more common Accucraft cab-mounted lubricator design connected before the "superheater." Ultimately I really don't see it as a problem - or a design flaw (though perhaps a design vs. economic compromise) - so long as it's recognized and treated accordingly (which is why I brought it up here in the first place).


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't like the Aristocraft oil...which seemed to congeal in the lubricator leaving a mess to suck out after the run.I have one of Accucraft's metal syringes and I keep a paper towel handy. hehehe 

I never use the lubricator "drains" as I'm partial to the KISS principle, and like I said, I have the metal syringe. The only exceptiosn are my two 4-4-0's where the needle valves prevents use of the syringe. I have no choice but to use the drain here.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Thomas; 
Since steam oil is now referred to as gear oil check the specs to see if spec states it can be used in steam oil application. Specs; Not being a mechanical or chemical engineer I've found I have to compare specs across two or three oils and suppliers to understand the specs of another. I.e., one spec assumes the reader knows what an anronym stands for while another spec actually defines it in a footnote. If me, I would also compare the gear oil spec to the specs of an oil(s) listed for use in either application.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess that a "Steam Oil" might make a good "Gear Oil", but I'd be fearful that a "Gear Oil" might not make a good "Steam Oil".


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, if you would please take the time to read the article I posted the link to, they explain specifically why GEAR oil is NOT a good choice.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That article is very informative and not so technical that a lowly engineer can't understand it.


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## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 26 Jan 2012 02:44 PM 
I guess that a "Steam Oil" might make a good "Gear Oil", but I'd be fearful that a "Gear Oil" might not make a good "Steam Oil". 


Right if you want Steam Oil ask for it. All the major Oil companies produce it. Just make sure you get the right grade 200 to 460 iso.
If you are running your engine off compressed air at a display the steam oil will not work, you need to use an air tool lubricator and air tool oil in the line.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## GWRdriver (Apr 7, 2008)

Hello all, 
I just happened to be in the neighborhood and heard my name mentioned so I thought I would drop by to see what all the fuss was about. As usual the steam oil debate rages on, accompanied by the usual uncertainty. To clarify a few things, my steam oil piece in SouthernSteam was written quite a few years ago, in the mid-1990s, and things change. Not too long after I came to participate in Ga1 from some years in ride-on scale live steam I found quite a few people in need of basic information about a number of things and steam oil, what it is, what it does, and where to get it was one of them. So I wrote the article, and to my surprise it was noticed and requested by a number of large scale live steam clubs around the country for publication in their newsletters and feedback was very positive. My hope was simply to educate and illuminate, and for many I think I did, but for a few individuals I succeeded only in making myself a target. That was a new experience for me. 

As you all know (or should know by now) there are always two sides to any story. Mr Chris Scott did indeed contact me, and at home by phone to boot, and it is true I refused to discuss things with him, but only because it quickly became apparent that he wanted only to be argumentative, split hairs, create teapot tempests, and prove a superiority. I had neither the time, equipment, nor ability to split those hairs that day and never will. I haven't talked to Jim Pitts about it, and won't, but my guess is he got the same treatment. So with that said, I want to cede any particular expertise or experience I had or have in that realm to Mr Scott, as guru of all things steam and steam oil, because I'm sure has tested his advice over many years time on all the locomotives he has designed and built. I also think that in order to prevent whatever residue of misinformation has accumulated in my article from adversely affecting any more live steamers than it already has, Mr Scott should soon publish his own article which will set all this right and bring everyone up to date. 

Peace and happy steaming to everyone, 
Harry Wade


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Harry,

I just want to thank you for the article that you wrote, it gave me some very good information and I appreciate that work that you did.


Thanks again
Andre Anderson


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Most of us understand and agree with of steam oil and it's purpose. Sometimes there seems to be opinions expressed on what brand to use but the consensus is conveyed by the outline of the article by Harry. What is fascinating is the fact there are many steam engines in our hobby that perform perfectly well without the use of steam from vintage to high end "modern" steam. So, one might need to consider the design of a steam engine as to the need for steam oil application (as per report from DH just recently a 90 year old engine runs fine without it.). Many times we probably find our locomotive having excessive application of steam oil mainly on the exterior. So, based on locomotive design and function along with variables such as saturated steam, low pressure, light loads,etc vs bigger high pressure, superheated, heavy loads, and faster locos make a difference in the application of steam oil if any at all? Any one want to venture an experiment with their thousands of dollars locomotive?


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

*Morris Lubricants* UK 

_*Over 140 Years of Continued Development*_


Steam Oils - Product Information [/b]
*COMPOUNDED BEARING OIL 100, 150, 220, 460 & 680 
STRAIGHT BEARING OIL ALTO 220*


*Description 
*This is a range of straight mineral and compounded oils for use in bearing applications associated with steam equipment. The compounded grades are manufactured with a small percentage of fatty oil to give properties not normally found in modern highly refined lubricants. These grades have superior lubricity and wetting power compared to conventional oils and will often maintain a stronger oil film in boundary in overload conditions and prevent failure.


*Applications 
*Morris Compound Bearing Oils are recommended for all total loss applications where the special properties of these oils are needed. They can be used for bearings, gears, slides, and general railway applications, and in these situations they can provide lubrication in wet conditions. They are also recommended for use in older types of railway rolling stock axle boxes with plain bearings. These grades have excellent feed characteristics for worsted wool wicks and axle bearing pads. The ISO 100 is specially recommended for use in the crankcase of West Country steam engines. All compounded grades meet the specification requirements of British Rail - MT276 schedule for locomotives running on BR lines.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not qualified; not smart enough, nor have enough experience, nor old enough.

I am a PITA and an SOB among other things.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Roundhouse gets their oil from Morris Lubricants in the UK. It is "*Compound Bearing Oil 220*". This past summer I ordered a 5 litre can of it from their lone distributor (at that time) here in the US. About half the guys that steam at my house prefer the Roundhouse / Morris oil so we split it up amongst us. It works great in all engines rather the steam lines get glowing red hot or not.


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## gordini (Jan 12, 2012)

Mr Wade, Updated or not i found your article very usefull and a very good introduction for someone that knows nothing about steam oils. Now i know some thinks about steam oil and have an idea about what to look for so thank you.

Thomas


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## gordini (Jan 12, 2012)

Brakeman, why to use compound bearing oil 220 instead of compound steam cylinder oil 460 that morris produce?
Is it because of the grade? For what i read so far bearing oil have different properties than cylinder oil.

Thomas


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

This was a good thread. I learned a lot about steam oil ect...... My theory is If I can spend x amount of money on a steam engine then It wont hurt to spend the money and get the right steam oil. I use accucraft oil as well as the aristo. 
Since we are on the topic of oil do we need to oil all the moving parts on the engine? I use the 3-1 oil in the red can. It seems the steam oil that escapes puts enough oil coating on all the moving parts. Whats everyones thoughts?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Sparky engines don't usually get a lot of lubrication on the moving parts, or, at least, not very many people discuss the need to spend time "oiling around" a Simulated Steam Engine like we Live Steamers do. The reason is that on the sparky, the external valve gear parts are not well fitted, and being "loose", there is not much wear on them. People do oil the electric motor bearings and put grease on the gear teeth and oil wheel bearings because those are places that are wear bearing surfaces and thus need lubrication so they do not wear so quickly.

But as for the oil spewing that some Live Steam Locomotives perportedly do, I doubt if the oil is getting to the appropriate places to do any good. I would not rely on random spray to get where it belongs. My engines do not spew all that much oil anyway.

Another thing about oil in general: The "IDEAL" oil would be a substance that sticks to everything but itself, and once stuck on something it would repel more of itself. Two surfaces against each other would not be sticky to each other because of the coating of this "Ideal Oil". Dirt would get coated with the "Ideal Oil" and drop way because the coating would not stick to anything that had the "Ideal Oil" on it.

But there is no such thing as an "Ideal Oil", so we need to select something to produce a result that is as close as possible and that will vary based on the environment the substitute is to work in.

A thick oil (grease) is useful in areas where there is pressure between parts that might force the oil out of the way and thus result in wear on the touching parts. But a heavy oil will hold dirt in it, whereas a light oil will not, so a heavy oil needs to be protected from ambient dirt getting into it. Putting a heavy oil on external parts where dirt can easily get to it would produce wear as the dirt acts like an abrasive suspended in the oil.

Light oil is useful where dirt can be present as it would not hold the dirt in suspension so easily.

These are the reasons for using a thick oil (grease) in a gear box that is enclosed and safe (relatively) from dirt. And why a light oil is used on axle bearings (both wheel axles and any other place where parts pivot on a point) and valve gear surfaces (places that just "rub" rather than pivot).

Also, remember that STEAM is used to clean surfaces of oil. Works really well if you have something oily that you want to clean. So using either a light oil or a heavy oil/grease inside a steam cylinder is kind of counter productive! You can inject some oil and the steam cleans it right off! If you are running a steam engine on compressed air, you can just put some oil in the cylinder to wet the surfaces and you are good to go as there is no steam cleaning the oil off.

But when you run the same "motor" on steam, you need a lubrication that is replenished as quickly as possible as the steam is cleaning it off. Regular oil/grease does not mix will in water (or steam) so just injecting a bit of "oil" is not the answer to replenishing the lubrication. "Steam Cylinder Oil" has a special property in that it mixes with the steam (water) and gets distributed onto the cylinder walls to provide lubrication on a continuous basis.

Oh yeah, one more thing... There is a culture of caring for a Live Steamer that is the result of the early builders of Live Steam engines. Compared to the number of Live Steam Locomotives out there, there are few that were fully machined and built by the owner. Most of us either bought a pre-built machine or bought the parts already machined and built the machine from them, and have no real understanding of the frustration of making the parts one at a time and having to make several before we get one that is right.

We may have cash tied up in the purchase and may be enamored of our Locomotive, but we don't have the blood, sweat and tears invested in making the parts. The early Live Steam Locomotives were not "Factory produced", but were the "baby" of the machinist. And no machinist worth his salt is going to want to let his baby be abused in any way... no way is he going to have to spend the time to re-make parts to keep it running! ("If I am going to make parts, I am going to make a new engine!") The machinist is going to take really good care of his creation! So there is a culture associated with Live Steam to care for the beasts... maybe a bit of "over care", but care, none-the-less.

If you NEVER oil your locomotive, either on the outside or the inside, but only run it once for 10 minutes, then there probably won't be much wear because you only ran it once for 10 minutes. But even if you dip the machine in oil every 5 minutes while running it 24 hours per day, 7 days a week all year long, it will wear out and will need parts renewed.

You might get away with running your locomotive for less than an hour, 2 or3 times per year, letting the overspray of steam cylinder oil coat the external workings of the locomotive and never have enough wear to need to renew some parts. Maybe your heirs and assigns will bemoan your lack of care for the toy... "I know dad used to play with this thing but it sure is a piece of junk!"


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Amen to Semper Vaporo's remarks about lubrication. Big steam locomotives require lots and lots of it. Ca. 1900 a hundred miles was how far a locomotive ran between roundhouse servicings; fast passenger engines might make 150. When I rode the SP Daylight between San Francisco and Los Angeles in the early '50s there was an elaborate ritual at San Luis Obispo, the halfway point. By then Alemite grease applied under pressure had superceded oil for the running gear, and the equivalent of a Mercedes pit crew went over the GS while she also took on oil and water. Without frequent thorough lubrication a GS was expected to fail, and having the Daylight broken down on a single-track railroad with 300 or more passengers on board, miles from nowhere, was unthinkable. The same applied to all steam locomotives everywhere. 

So don't think that you are too good to be bothered with boring icky routine maintenance. A real engineer spent his time on the ground with an oil can when his locomotive was stopped. He also inspected everything to make sure that nothing was beginning to go wrong, and he reported anything not just right at the first opportunity. This is an essential part of what being a good engineer is all about.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gordini on 27 Jan 2012 02:27 AM 
Brakeman, why to use compound bearing oil 220 instead of compound steam cylinder oil 460 that morris produce?
Is it because of the grade? For what i read so far bearing oil have different properties than cylinder oil.

Thomas 

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We had been using the "Newer" steam oil that Roundhouse talks about at their web site and really liked it. Carbonization stopped even on engines that were notorious for having that problem. We all needed more, but the price from Roundhouse, because of all the new shipping regulations made the oil way to expensive. The Roundhouse Folks were nice enough to tell me that their new oil is the " Morris Compound Bearing Oil 220". I then asked my friend Paul Kenny who used to be one of the early Roundhouse Dealers to double check this info. He has several good friends at Roundhouse. They also told him that is the oil they use and re-sale. I Did not ask any more. I think this oil debate gets way to twisted around. Paul also turned me on to where I could order Morris products here in the states. Ordered the 5 Liter can and we have all been happy since. It is the exact same stuff, and works great in all our engines. 

If anybody wants to know where to get Morris products, send me a PM.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

If I am following this right "COMPOUNDED BEARING OIL" is "STRAIGHT BEARING OIL" with a "STEAM ADDITIVE PACKAGE" making it "STEAM OIL"


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

My computer would not allow me to answer Mr. Grunge's quote even after two tries. 


*So: Yes, you are correct Mr. Grunge.*


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