# Criticism: When is it too much?



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Lately, and by that I mean over the last year and a half we have been ringside for Bachmann's introductions of two very different but equally innovative products. Unfortunately, we have also been privy to much of the behind-the-scenes drama that has accompanied these models. 
  The first was the 55 ton three-truck Shay. It seemed strange at the time that they would introduce a _three-truck _Shay when they had just come out with the 38 ton _two-truck _Shay but it _was_ one of the models that had been asked for so I'm not going to dwell on that particular decision. What _was_ decided was to introduce a digital sound system that was advertised as utilizing "Tsunami technology." Without going into the whole spiel again and to keep it short, the sound system, as installed, was NOT a "Tsunami!" It was an interesting idea that didn't live up to the hype. There were problems with cold soldered wires that would break with minimal movement and circuit boards that were actually _bent_ due to the necessity to cram the wires underneath!!
  In addition, Bachmann decided to issue half with sound and half without. This in and of itself wasn't a bad decision as it turns out because the sound equipped models had no provisions for external triggers rendering aftermarket r/c systems useless! The questionable part came when the decision was made to make _certain models_ with sound and completely different models without! Most of this can be found in the "Quasinami" threads.
  Fast forward to the middle of this last year. We were being very patient about the K-27 but were hearing almost _nothing_ about it! Of course, there were rumors and behind the scenes stories (which turned out to be true...) about deals with Soundtraxx's Blackstone and how there could be NO MENTION of the K-27 in Fn3 for _six-months _after Blackstone's introduction of their HOn3 version(!!) No pre-hype. No pictures. No confirmation. No NOTHING!! All of a sudden we are told the K-27 is at a show...almost! It turns out that the K that was being shown was a mock-up that had to be assembled by the Bachmann sales staff before the show! Again, this wasn't exactly a bad decision as it _did_ allow us a glimpse at what Bachmann had in store for us!
  It was about this time that the "Super socket" idea began to circulate. After the "Qasinami" incident is it any wonder that this new rumor had us so energized? Without naming specific people, suffice to say that Bachmann or more correctly, certain people in high places in Bachmann's management were convinced that this new approach was the way to go. This led to some _brutal_ postings and some really scandalous and despicable behind-the-scenes shenanigans trying to quash them!
  By the time that the K-27 did arrive (strangely enough, at _one _particular person's home) it was being "managed" by certain people with ties to Bachmann. Apparently, there were troubles with the sound interface optical trigger as well as other issues that needed to get worked out in a controlled manner!
  Now, we all have heard the problems that have surfaced. We have seen the posts that have advertised "fixes" and we now know that Bachmann is actively trying to correct these problems. My concern has now turned to "When is it too much?" Has all of our posts had the cumulative effect of "piling on" Bachmann so that the powers that be will get the wrong message? We WANT the K-27!! We just want it to work out of the box! Bachmann has chosen this method for introducing new models. So be it. I just wonder when criticism gets to be too much? Are we already past that point and if so, is there anything that can be done? It's just something that has been bugging me over the last week or two..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no irons in this fire, but if I were a Bachmann representative, I would cringe just thinking about what might be written over here.  Were I associated with Bachmann,  I doubt if I'd even be coming over to MLS to read some of this stuff.  My sense of it is that  the "enough is enough" stage was probably reached  some time ago. 

As I said, I have no particular interest in this product or in Bachmann or in anyone associated with that company or its distributors or service agents, but even I--a disinterested observer-- get to the point where I can't read the criticisms any more. Thus,  I'd say, _yes_, the piling on effect has gotten to be just a little on the heavy side.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think the danger doesn't come so much in pointing out strengths and weaknesses, but in belaboring the point. Untortunately, its natural for a forum format to allow that to happen. It's just the way the interactive discussion evolves. People can love a product, but point out one little curious point that gets picked up an perpetuated for 20 more responses. All of a sudden, the overwhelmingly positive product is now a piece of junk because of an insignificant flaw. 

It's human nature to remember the negative and gloss over the positive. I'm always taken aback--but not surprised--when a manufacturer complains about a product review because I mentioned one little flaw in a sea of overwhelmingly positive traits. While I think Bachmann may be being singled out lately, they're not the only manufacturer to suffer such heavy-handed criticism. There was a recent thread about the Accucraft passenger cars that took a decidedly negative tone, despite the opinion of most involved with the discussion that the cars were fantastic. 

"Too much?" That's a hard one to peg. I don't think the manufacturers put a whole lot of weight on the specifics of what is said on forums like this, but I do think they're aware of the general opinions expressed. One can always hope they take our opinions into consideration, but in reality, the probably 20 or 30 people who take active parts in these discussions are a small fraction of the total market. I don't see any of the manufacturers pulling up tent stakes based solely on what transpires here. 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Boy, and this topic had me worried for a minute.....


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Criticism becomes too much "just before" it has a negative effect.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

While I have found all of the Bachmann problems of late very interesting, this forum has become somewhat of a soap opera. One thread questions "Where is everybody?". Well, I think between all of the Super Socket/Bachmann drama and the change of MLS format, we may have lost at least a few here. I really do hope that Bachmann is listening to all of this, but I doubt it. Testing .... what a concept. Listening to the customer ... another concept. Ignoring it all and "saving" a buck ... another concept.

So what is the status of the "Super Socket Specs"? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 03/08/2008 8:48 PM


BIG SNIP
So what is the status of the "Super Socket Specs"? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif



Now that is a really good question Del.

As far as I am concerned what Bachmann delivered re the socket, is almost exactly what I was suggesting to the "designer" all along.  
The really interesting thing is Bachmann had already signed off  on the fitted socket before Mr Ames called for submissions in September.
The only thing Bachmann forgot to do is put a suitable fuse between the Battery terminals and the socket circuit, and actualy mount the screw terminals on the pcb for non socket installations.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 03/08/2008 8:48 PM


While I have found all of the Bachmann problems of late very interesting, this forum has become somewhat of a soap opera. One thread questions "Where is everybody?". Well, I think between all of the Super Socket/Bachmann drama and the change of MLS format, we may have lost at least a few here. I really do hope that Bachmann is listening to all of this, but I doubt it. Testing .... what a concept. Listening to the customer ... another concept. Ignoring it all and "saving" a buck ... another concept.

So what is the status of the "Super Socket Specs"? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

At least someone at Bachmann is listening.
And, from bits and pieces trickling down, it appears someone found a hammer and nails and did nail door #2 shut.
I am personally puzzled that this went on as it did with nobody on the "inside" asking anybody on the "outside" how this was going to play out.

And if you think that last sentence was PC in nature, you have no idea HOW PC it was!

Oh, well.

As far as status.....last I heard, down for the count.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 03/08/2008 8:48 PM


While I have found all of the Bachmann problems of late very interesting, this forum has become somewhat of a soap opera. One thread questions "Where is everybody?". Well, I think between all of the Super Socket/Bachmann drama and the change of MLS format, we may have lost at least a few here. 


Now that is a _very_ interesting point of view, and illustrates the concept of, *"Damned if you do and damned if you don't."*  Many times in the past, we've been accused of censorship, hand-licking, etc. ad nauseum because we've taken a harder stance on publicly criticizing manufacturers and products.  Due to the huge interest in the K-27, a more or less conscious decision was made to let things run their course, and to allow certain things which ordinarily we would have somewhat curtailed.  So now we've lost members due to that as well?

I'm not disputing the point Del has made.  Rather I'm trying to use it to illustrate the very difficult and fine line we try to walk here.   So the next time you disagree with a decision, think about it.  It's impossible to make everybody happy all the time.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Thought you were a mac guy, Dave! As such, we wouldn't expect much PC ..... 

Steve, 

It depends. What you need is the right people to listen to unfiltered, unspun input from the right people. That, combined with some unrevised history (also developed from unfiltered, unspun information) will provide the correct interpretation of the response of the users. 

I love my Bachmann K-27. I can't say enough good things about it. It runs great, it looks great, it's fantabulous. Pity I had to spend as much as I did to get it that way -- had the powers that be actually listened to and made use of information that they DID have prior to buildilng the locomotive, I would have been able to spend that money on a second K-27 instead of repairing the first one. I'd have been happy, Bachmann would have been happy, and nobody would have had to spin anything. 

But ... that's all in the past now. I might even be talked into a second one at some point, particularly since the Bachmann board has announced that the second run, instead of new inside slant valves and new road numbers, will be a duplicate of the first run (www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,4696.0.html  ) although happily, the folks who wanted a 453 and missed it will have a second chance.) When these new locomotives, with the electronics and counterweight problems (presumably) solved, arrive on dealer shelves, I would imagine there'll be a fire sale on the original models, and I can scoop up another at a price that makes the "modification" a bit less painful . . . I can't imagine anyone would knowingly buy a first run locomotive with the problems when a second run one without them was available for the same price! If Bachmann then interprets this as a lack of interest in the K-27, it's a huge mistake on their part. 

Is that being "overcritical?" I don't think so. I don't hate Bachmann trains ... in fact, all of my current locomotives were made by Bachmann. But I think they ought to listen to the folks who run these things a little more carefully than they have been, or seriously evaluate the folks they allow to do the "listening" for them. I'm just glad that this time someone made enough of a loud noise that the right people heard, instead of having the K-27 go the way of the 3 truck Shay. It would appear that the forums, and the blogosphere can have as much influence in the corporate world as it is beginning to in the political one. 

Nobody likes having their feet held to the fire. The idea is to remove the impetus to do so. It's been my experience that folks here are as quick to be excited about a good product as they are to be upset about a bad one. Look how many people, like me, are thrilled with their K's even WITH the problems. Next time, we'll hope for the Laurel and Hearty Handshake (with all due apologies to Blazing Saddles) instead of the torches and pitchforks.  I will line up to buy the next Bachmann locomotive with great expectations (assuming it's not "Spock the Vulcan" again!) but don't expect me to be uncritical of any issues with it that really never should have seen the light of day just as sign of loyalty to the manufactuer.... there's only one forum I know of where that's the rule, and they lose people there on a regular basis too.

Matthew (OV) 
Slate Creek Railway, 
Home of the K-Rex


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Dwight - In reference to the Bachmann "Stuff", I didn't mean to imply that MLS or any of the moderators should have done anything different. I just think all of the on-line fighting kind of distracts from the fun side of the hobby. And I, for one, read every line of the battle ... so what am I complaining about? I don't know. I tend to bash Manufactures myself when I think it is warranted. This forum is a means of feedback to Manufactures to correct their faults and to our peers to warn them of our perception of a potential problem with a product.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I realized at last night's operating session that only two non-Bachmann locomotives are currently in service on the CCRy, and one of those is a Magnus. 
However, every 4-6-0 no longer rides on Bachmann drives, three being 2-8-0's, one a 2-8-2, and two being 4-6-0's, of the 2-1/2 outside-frame 2-8-0's, one loco has a different gearbox and motor than delivered. 
The Porters are stock-ish drives, as are the Shays, Climax, Heisler (with several mods, including hard-wired pivots, lube ports drilled, etc). 

I've been a fan of Bachmann primarily, early on, as it was affordable, and later, once the 1:20 bug bit them, the detail and adherence to scale and some prototype made them more believeable. 

Oh, I don't know about PC and Mac.....mine has a crank on the side to turn to make it go.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay,

How do you know what version of a locomotive you are getting?

I recently bought a Connie and a Shay at a great price.  I was worried I was getting the one with plastic trucks but that was not the case.

So how do you tell without actually seeing the engine?

That is the problem with buying mail order, I guess.

John


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight - In reference to the Bachmann "Stuff", I didn't mean to imply that MLS or any of the moderators should have done anything different. 
I didn't take it that you were Del. But you're right... too much "soap opera" can drive people away just as fast as to much intervention. All I was doing was trying to point out that the balance point is a fine line which is constantly shifting, and that fact makes it exceeding difficult to be right all the time.


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## Art (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have both of the locomotives but do have the 3-truck Shay with sound and love the loco. I have not had any complaints with it after doing minor surgery like TOC has stated. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just plain stupid (I have been accused of that before) but I think Bmann did a good job on that loco. I even like the sound even though it could use a bit more volume. I will in time probably get the latest Bmann creation too. 

I have had problems with every manufacturer going, but I will not get down on Bmann for this one. Maybe I'm not looking for what you want and that is the problem?

Art


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

Nonsense! 
Any excess in verbage is to simply reinforce the point: Bachmann or Kader, PLEASE test your locos before sending them overseas to us -- that's your beloved, trusting, ever-willing to purchase, customers. 

Obviously, the problems in the locos -- take your pick going back five years -- were simply discovered by consumers running them. There was no lengthy run time in order for the malady to expose itself. That's from screws that came loose, screws loose at installation, motor mount problems, trucks that had plastic fracturing, and now the K-27's wheel foible. 

As long as Kader is trusting that the American marketplace will continue to purchase and test as consumers what they are not willing to do prior to shipment there will continue to be complaints. 

Lot's of them. Now, is that consequence a puzzlement? 

Selah, 
Wendell


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## Chris France (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think there is anything wrong with criticism, the problem is when it becomes vitriolic manufacturer bashing. While I also have no stake in the Bachman issues, I have noticed this a lot dealing with other manufacturers and even dealers lately. I've had a few converstations with friends of mine from this board on the phone where we questioned who had relieved themselves in someone's wheaties do to the way they were talking in their posts. I've been in this hobby since I was 12, I'm 34 now and I've had more than my fair share of problems. Some of them in the days when getting a hold of a manufacturer was too difficult to be worth the trouble. However, in the last 10-15 years I, personally, have not had a problem that wasn't resolved with a polite, private email to the maunfacturer. It seems to me that a lot of people respond with such anger that it instantly puts the other side on the defensive, and when they are on the defensive you're not apt to get their best.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Every action has an equal and opposite criticism. 

It does seem products sometimes get unmercifully thrashed here on MLS. I've seen one of the new Bachmann locos. A beautiful thing indeed.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe in their excitement for the K-27, the first 'affordable' CO Narrow Gauge mikado, the teething issues associated with *all* new locomotives were not anticipated.  It would have been great if their loco didn't have any problems with the drive.  However, history has shown us that first runs usually have one or two nagging issues that are missed. 

I agree 100% with what Chris has said here regarding the criticism of manufacturers and dealers in general.  

Kevin, I also agree with what you've said as well.  Folks will only remember one thing, like the trucks are spaced 4 scale inches too close which renders the whole model as a 'toy'. 

Wendell is also right.  He has stated here and on Bachmann that testing of product should be done by the manufacturer and not the consumer.  I agree with his sentiment, because I just don't have the time anymore to fix things right out of the box that I worked hard to afford.  But I also understand that the cost of doing that would probably cause the price point to double.  So we're damned if they do and damned if they don't.  

As far as the original post, I think Bachmann is trying to offer more product at a lower price.  The problems in large scale are well known.  There are a variety of power sources and requirements for sound and control.  Its not like O gauge where it is either TMCC or DCS.  We've got DCC, DC, Battery and then there are break downs within those groups.  We've come a long way since the big hauler and the static chuff.  I think Bachmann was trying to offer something that would be super flexible with all configurations.  The counterweights were an error in manufacturing.  I think Bachmann is doing right by their customers by making a fix in a timely manner.  After all, the LGB Mikado's had their problems, too, and LGB fixed them right up.  I am sure if we read back through, we'd find all the old posts where people were really mad at having paid $1400 for a locomotive that ran crooked down the track.   I did have that problem with my LGB mikado, but I didn't get a free boxcar like some folks.  I don;t think I complained loud enough.

In 1991, how much did the old LGB mogul with sound cost?  Anyone? Anyone?  I seem to recall it was in the $600-$700 range.  Like most technology,  we are now seeing that we get more train for our dollar.  If it wasn't for the counterweight issue, would there have been as big a hubub?  

I am grateful that we have this forum to exchange ideas on how to fix things.  Look at the thread going about the AML K-4 and the mods  to the pilot truck.  That was a $1500 locomotive that no one bought, and now that its $750 or so, it seems to be selling well.  I haven't seen anyone starting threads about AML's lack of QC, but the day is young. 

Mark


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Heck, Mark, the LGB mogul still runs anywhere from $700 to $1,200, depending on which version. The Ks are now shipping from the factory with the new counterweights, so the primary issue seems to have been resolved within relatively short order. Quite honestly, I don't know if the K for $700 or the 4-6-0 for $100 is a bigger "bang for your buck," but both are incredible deals based on what you get. 

Later, 

K


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin,

My point exactly! 

Mark


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the complaints are more from frustration than from any hatred of a any manufacturer. But the line between frustration and hatred can be a thin one. 

Bachmann has had issues to some degree with just about every new engine it has produced as long as I have been in this hobby. Now though, the stakes are getting higher, as the engines get larger and more expensive, so the level of frustration has also grown in accordance, and as long as Bachmann/Kader continues to use us the consumer as the product testing platform in lieu of aggressive in-house testing, then they had better dam well get used to and in fact, EXPECT to get grilled over the coals by consumers over things that need to be repaired and/or replaced on brand new products. To expect a complacent consumer to quitely accept the product even if it is flawed is delusional. Just because LGB is gone doesnt automaticly mean everyone is going to buy your product. 

When auto manufacturers pull stunts like this, it usually ends in class action lawsuits over the deaths that occur from their design flaws (example: Pinto) 
Thats not going to happen here but Bachmann does run a very real risk of alienating alot of people in an already very small niche hobby. I do find it interesting that these complaints dont seam to affect any other scale from B'mann, only large scale. 

Aristo seams to have learned from the Mikado driveblock problem and havent issued either the revamped C-16 or the standard gauge Connie which use the same drive brick, I suspect due to product testing prior to release, so they at least make sure theres no big problems and dont go thru that mess again. 

LGB had an infamous "torture track" that every product was tested over to ensure every product was up to there standards. If Bachmann had one of these they could save themselves a tremendous amount of consumer grief if they took a couple months to Beta test there products prior to shipping. We wait for YEARS for some of these models to get released, I'm sure almost everyone of us would wait a couple more months to ensure that most of these hickups are resolved before the product is on the water. The way they are currently doing it simply baffles me....


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark, I bought a PRR Mogul with sound for over $700 from Highway Hobbies on Route 17 in New Jersey sometime before 1993. It was the only one they had. My wife fell in love with it when we were down there and sent me back (we lived west of Kingston, NY, back then) to buy it a couple days later. Did I tell her the PRR never ran such an engine? Course not; you take what happens to fall in your lap! 

Didn't know about TRAINWORLD or any discount house or online forums back then. What a change! 

Art


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

In any release 1 product, there'll be glitches. It's the nature of mankind. Perhaps we can be a little less ascerbic in our criticism?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Wikipedia definition of criticism: Critisism 

I like how they break down criticism as constructive or destructive. My preference, and I believe most folks here, is for "constructive criticism", which is useful. 

If a manufacturer provides faulty components I believe they should be made aware of it, and I have done this. The main reason is I would want to know if it were my product. Sometimes criticism appears harsh, but if it is useful I consider it constructive. However, when it gets destructive, i.e. you are now to the point of attempting to destroy someone's creation or reputation, that I can do without.


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

The concensus appears to be universal: Please, Kader( Bachmann's mfg.), test a sample of locos before shipping. 
The "offical" statement is it is too expensive to stop an assembly line or it is "too expensive" to have elaborate testing. Neither excuses are relevant. 

To me both reasons avoid the obvious: After production -- even after a day's production or after all are completed -- pull several locos and run them. Would two hours of running show flaws? They certainly did with TOC's tests. Would two hours running through four sizes and brands of turnouts be too much to ask? Would running them on a test loop with two levels of grade be too much to ask? 

The excuses for not testing prior to shipment are repeated by Bachman's spokespersons and treated as fact. 

Is this the matra of the readers of this posting? Make your statement on the Bachmann site -- give some energy to Bachmann's involvement with Kader's production/shipment schedule. My guess is (a good guess) that Bachmann's mgmt. has little to do with Kader's policies re: "produce 'n ship". Give Bachmann some reasons to pressure Kader's production crew to do some random testing prior to using us -- which will dwindle -- to buy 'n test for them. 

Wendell


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

O.K., maybe I'm just naive but I don't think so because I was a cop for 30 years. I do know that I've finally learned to curb my impatience when I decide to buy a new product. I really think Bachmann needs some cudos. They're the ones who are producing 1:20.3 affordable stuff for those of us in that scale. It certainly beats scratchbuilding everything(which I had to do before they came along). I know there are problems when they come out with new stuff and testing would be a big plus. However, everything I've bought that's Bachmann and not up to my par has been easily fixable. 

My point is that they are the ones we turn to unless we're millionaires. They're the ones who make what we want and they're stuff is inexpensive enough to fix. If you don't want to fix it, wait until they do. 

I just had to have a first generation 2-Truck Shay. Yeah, the drivers were shaky, but they eventually fixed the problem and if I had a modicum of patience the problem would have been rectified. I just had to have their first run of 4-4-0s. I had to put enough weight on the pony trucks to sink a ship. Eventually I accepted that it didn't like my track. I could either fix the track or sell the loco. My decision was to send the loco away. By the way, all my other Bachmann stuff is great. No loss screws or anything. 

Finally, I really like the looks of the new AMS coach but have read there are some minor problems. I'LL JUST WAIT UNTIL AMS FIXES IT. I've finally learned to have patience. 

Tom Rey


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By blackburn49 on 03/08/2008 5:24 PM
I have no irons in this fire, but if I were a Bachmann representative, I would cringe just thinking about what might be written over here.  Were I associated with Bachmann,  I doubt if I'd even be coming over to MLS to read some of this stuff.  My sense of it is that  the "enough is enough" stage was probably reached  some time ago. 

As I said, I have no particular interest in this product or in Bachmann or in anyone associated with that company or its distributors or service agents, but even I--a disinterested observer-- get to the point where I can't read the criticisms any more. Thus,  I'd say, _yes_, the piling on effect has gotten to be just a little on the heavy side. 


I agree.

I also agree that some is a reflection of frustration.  It's up to each of us to balance it out as best we can.  When a $1000 engine blows up on the first curve it is hard to stay objective that's for sure.  LOL

Raymond


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Steve,

I am not a Bachmann person. I have nothing against Bachmann but my layouts are too demanding for their locos (this is not intended to be a criticism at all).

As a result I have not read or even noticed the complaints about any new Bachmann products until I saw your post.

My reaction was "LGB Mikado Revisited"

This sounds exactly like the initial barrage of complaints that were made when LGB introduced their Mikado and some of the very first ones had drive unit problems (none of my LGB Mikados have ever had the problem).

Within quite a short time LGB realized that they had a problem, designed an improved drive unit and replaced the drive unit in every problem Mikado at no charge even beyond the printed warranty time. Some people even ended up with a free LGB boxcar for their inconvenience.

When I had Bachmann locomotives (I still have a lot of Bachmann rolling stock) I had occasion to send a couple of locos to Bachmann and their service exceeded my expectations.

I think that it is less helpful to everyone to barrage them with complaints than it would be to look at their history of dealing with problems in their past. If people are buying the new Bachmann locos it is probably because they have had good experiences (or are buying based on other's good experiences) with Bachmann in the past.

In a way (it would seem to me that) to overwhelm Bachmann with criticisms at the very introduction of their new locomotives could possibly destroy the profitability of those locomotives and result in Bachmann dropping future production and not investing the time and money to improve them resulting in everyone losing out by not getting the improvements they want and need and also future buyers not being able to buy a discontinued model.

If Bachmann does not sell what they have made they may not have the profits they need justify and to fund improvements.

That would be unfortunate to those who are are "Bachmann people."

Would a Bachmann Representative wish to participate in MLS Forums?

If the answer is "No" then I would suggest that would indicate that the criticisms have become too much.

It does not matter if the brand is Bachmann, LGB, Aristo-Craft, USA, Accucraft or whoever. In my opinion public criticism should begin if and when a manufacturer proves unwilling or unable to resolve a product issue. If a manufacturer has a proven record of taking care of their customers we should give them an opportunity to fix their problems before we go into attack mode.

The reasons I sold my Bachmann locos was due to incompatibility with my layout but the locos were perfectly OK and met all of Bachmann's specifications for them - and the new owners are quite happy with them.

I guess the real questions are "does Bachmann acknowledge that they have a problem" and "has Bachmann said that they will fix the problem?" If the answers are "yes" and "yes" then perhaps Bachmann should be given the opportunity to do so. I don't know because I don't have any of the locos in question.

Regards,

Jerry 




Posted By Steve Stockham on 03/08/2008 5:11 PM
I just wonder when criticism gets to be too much?


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry and everybody,
  Thanks for giving your perspective on this! I really appreciate the thought that has gone into each and every response. I wish that someone from Bachmann _would_ read this thread as I truly believe that they would get a much better idea of the collective mindset of largescale model railroaders as a group! Bachmann is a main reason that we largescale modelers don't have to scratchbuild everything anymore! Sometimes we get compacent and tend to expect near perfection right off the bat! That rarely happens. 
  The counterweights are arriving and the other details are being addressed. This is good. I say again,"_This is one SWEET locomotive!!" _Bachmann may have done everything *ss backwards as far as it's developement and marketing (that is my personal opinion) but they _have_ come out with a Mikado that is Fn3 and I am satisfied!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a simple non-critical request: 
Bachmann (or Kader) please just test a sample of any loco production BEFORE you ship them. 
If new owners can find a problem in 20 minutes of run time we ask you plase do so before we do. 

Unfortunately, we now know from the Bachmann website, locos are not tested after production. 

Sincerely, 
Your dedicated Bachmann fans


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## Skip (Jan 2, 2008)

Criticism dissipates when issues are addressed in a respectful, timely manner. If criticism is ramping up, it usually means the problem is not being dealt with in a way that satisfies all parties, particularly the customer. While many on here run to defend vendors and manufacturers when they drop the ball, that's ok, but... don't simply pass off incompetence, arrogance or even outright fraud simply because the guy has product you want, or you happen to be an acquaintance. These companies are, in the first instance, businesses, maybe enthusiasts after. 
The model train hobby is expensive, and mfrs and vendors can ill afford to alienate its market base. MLS is a canary in a coal mine for the industry. A wise business takes the lumps it sees in MLS and deals with it. Smart businesses don't cut and run from sites like MLS because the noise level is high, they deal with it. The ones that don't, don't really care for your business and time will shuffle them out. 

Of all of my hobbies and Lord knows, I have _many _, my experience with mfrs and vendors in the model train hobby is that this is by far the worst for vendor and manufacturer arrogance and attitude. This tells me a couple of things - that the industry views the product as a throwaway, a consumable, and once sold, only an issue insomuch as it will support further sales, or, the distributed sales base is so broad, and given that its international, that individual sales mean nothing to the business, or both. Support is a cost of doing business, but when it gets too high, a broadly distributed company will simply cut and run. Don't forget, most of the "manufacturers" (like Bachmann, Accucraft) in this hobby are really just sales agents. Other than the upfront cost of inventory and distribution, their investment is not large - they are not building and running the plants. 
Frankly, I think most of them are just lousy businessmen - unwilling to spend small to save big, at the cost of the sales cycle. Most of the bitching that goes on here reflects exactly that. Most complainers would relax with timely communication and reasonable accommodation. Its when the buyer doesn't get that, that the noise level goes up, and I think its fair ball. 
Case in point: I just tried to order some parts from Accucraft for my Rubies, using their online order system. Guess what - I'm in Canada - after going through all of the stuff and carting what I wanted, I find I can't check out because their system will only accept US addressing for their accounts. So far, Accucraft is 0 for 6 in contact attempts. No response to emails, no response to comments on on-line product registration, and my Mogul still doesn't run properly. I have lusted over other models in their line, but you know what? I'm not investing thousands of dollars in a company that doesn't have the courtesy to answer emails from a system designed and advertised to do business that way. Most days, because of work schedule, its not practical for me to call "Cliff" (nor am I inclined to run up long distance charges when its not necessary - I'd rather put that money into product, not the phone company - hello? Accucraft and others - get it yet?). Ultimately I will just cut my losses and walk away from the product. Not a good business strategy. 
I'm only using Accucraft as an example - I find this hobby industry to be rife with this kind of problem. 

What I do find offensive on here, is the on-going dialogue and bashing because a company doesn't make a product the way _some_ buyers want it. Much of that conversation has more to do with personalities. it would seem, than real "issues" Applicability is not the same problem as communication or reliability issues.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Wendell, 

> Unfortunately, we now know from the Bachmann website, locos are not tested after production. 

Sure they are. You just have to wait until Dave Goodson tests one and publishes his results. A long time in the computer biz taught me that the early adoptors (known as pioneers and recognized by the arrows protruding from there backs) often get stuck with stuff that still has a few unsquashed bugs in it. 

Nothing I've seen discussed historically here on MLS, pick your brand, indicates to me that you can safely bet on a 1.0 release being a walk in the park. Unless I could affort to just take a flyer and see what happens on a purchase like the K-27, which I can't (heck, I couldn't buy one if the thing was perfect and made a decent cup of coffee) I'd wait till TOC said yea or nay before I ponied up the money. 

Just my observation. 

Best, 
TJ


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Shipping without testing is far more common than we might think.

I have a Sears Craftsman air compressor that I really love. It is powerful and it is QUIET! Best of all instead of $400 it only cost me $50 from a surplus store after they gave up trying to fix it. Eventually it cost me about $15 for parts once I discovered that it had NEVER had any exhaust valves installed. It would have been impossible for it to have passed the most minor of quality control pressure checks as it was totally unable to COMPRESS AIR!

I once bought a German made caboose only to discover that the wheels that contacted the tracks were wired so that the front wheels shorted out the back wheels (a simple fix). When I later bought the same caboose but made in China - the wheels still shorted out and again it took about 5 minutes to fix it.

Some things are minor enough that a quality control check may not be necessary but a locomotive or an air compressor should have at least a functioning quality control check.

Perhaps part of the problem relates to how much costs at the factory (such as quality control checks) multiply as the cost moves through shipping, distribution, resale etc.

I once was trying to sell a $6,000 piece of equipment when the buyer convinced my employer to donate the product instead. My retail price of $6,000 was transformed into a $1,400 manufacturing cost when my employer donated the equipment.

The question may not be if the manufacturers are willing to provide that final quality control check but rather if we the consumer are willing to pay a significantly higher retail price for goods that would have the additional quality control cost multiplied through all the levels of getting from the factory to us.

The more we expect to receive the more we should expect to pay for what we get. How much are we willing to pay for a thorough testing of our trains at the factory? Of course we can say that it should be done free but I doubt that it will ever happen.

I've bought a lot of trains at closeout prices. I have discovered that a lot of the closeouts have a minor defect or two that might have resulted in a full priced product being returned to the manufacturer. I'm still looking for that free lunch and once in awhile I find a good deal but sometimes it is not what I expected and hoped for.

Overall we do tend to get a good deal for the prices we pay unless perhaps someone pays MSRP for an item that is selling for half price elsewhere and is not getting some sort of extra value added from his local retailer.

Jerry




Posted By Wendell Hanks on 03/15/2008 12:52 PM
Unfortunately, we now know from the Bachmann website, locos are not tested after production.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Your post caused me to remember my visit to the LGB factory in Nurnburg about 5 years ago. They ran their locomotives back and forth on short pieces of track to test them.  I don't know if it was all locos but it was at least some.  Maybe it is not as expensive as they say to test locos while they are in production, 

Mark


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Mark,

I remember a video about Lionel that showed them testing each loco before putting it in a box.

It is understandable (to me) when a coach arrives with a pair of external wires mis-connected but I agree that something complex like a locomotive should be factory tested before shipment.

I bought a microwave from K-Mart Sunday and exchanged it Monday when it proved to have a problem (that was probably due to rough handling in shipping). It struck me that if I had bought it on line I would have had to repackage and ship it back to the vendor and that would have really aggravated me.

Some people like it when a dealer tests their locomotives before shipping but I do not. I have seen some (O Gauge) locos that a dealer had "pre-tested" and to me they were nothing less than store demo units which I would not want or would have wanted a substantial discount on.

With the cost of fuel and everything else rising I think there is little excuse for a manufacturer not to pretest a locomotive before it leaves the factory. I just would be surprised if all manufacturers did it.

Regards,

Jerry


 Posted By markoles on 03/19/2008 9:35 AM
Jerry,

Your post caused me to remember my visit to the LGB factory in Nurnburg about 5 years ago. They ran their locomotives back and forth on short pieces of track to test them.  I don't know if it was all locos but it was at least some.  Maybe it is not as expensive as they say to test locos while they are in production, 

Mark


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

How about if the locos are sold at two prices, one price for a loco that skipped the QC department and a higher price for a loco that was run through QC to be sure it worked? That is silly to be sure, but I wonder how many of each could be sold?

But then, remember the brewhaha about a retailer selling a live steamer that had been removed from he packaging and steamed up as a demo.  Cannot sell that as "NEW", it must be sold as "USED".

So, if the factory tests the unit, does that make it "USED"? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

It's not the truth that hurts, it's the shock of hearing it.


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## railgeek (Jan 15, 2008)

I have a great idea.

Everyone return their K-27s for refunds.

I'm tired of being Bachmann's 3rd party repair shop.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I think one must develop a philosophic attitude about some of this keeping in mind it is only a hobby. 

I have been in model railroading for about 50 years spending most of that time modelling in HO. I have owned literally hundreds of different locos from the least expensive toylike creations to the most expensive brass models. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number that required zero work from me to make them function. In recent years, DIESELS from OMI, Athearn. InterMountain, Stewart, BLI and Atlas/Kato have usually run reliably though they still often required tweaking of DCC parameters and sound, adding weight and so on. But other than the most modern of diesels, all locos, especially steamers required lots of attention - everything from installing couplers to quartering drivers to remotoring. But I always kept in mind I was buying a model - if the model itself was not important, than why be concerned. Accuracy of the model to me always takes precedence. 

Fast forward to my entry to LS. A stroke of good luck, my first loco was a Big Hauler that ran well. But with nowhere to run it until battery power was installed, I simply got on with the conversion. Lo and behold it ran perfectly - a 27 MHz TE plus old gel cells plus a Big Hauler. Admittedly, I did have to do the conversion and install couplers etc but this was similar to my experience in HO. Next I bought a first gen B'mann shay. It was sent to TOC for battery RC and it has run flawlessly ever since. 

During my 9 years in large scale I can say two things ... the average large scaler generally does not expect to do anything (not even add couplers!) to a loco out of the box and there is a very low tolerance for working on their models (send it back for warranty service seems to be the cry). Generally, concern for accuracy of the model is low as long as it runs. 

Since my favourable introduction to LS with two perfect B'mann locos (admitting TOC fixed the shay!), what have I found. Well, to be honest, it is not pretty out there. Every single loco I have had has required considerable work. Battery/RC installations, sound and coupler installations are incredibly painful due to a lack of standards. Beyond that, I have seen first hand B'mann's legendary QC, Aristo's out of gauge diesel motor blocks and sloppy wiring, USAT's split axles on every diesel I have ever owned from them, two Accucraft live steam shays that required retiming before they ran. But, I have appreciated the level of detail on these fine models and I understand also the strain I put them through in my running of them. In short, I am prepared to work with the shortcomings in various models to get what I want. 

It is a hobby. i understand that some folks want their loco straight from the factory sealed carton to run perfectly, be painted perfectly, meet their own personal standards for track gauge and profile, have wonderful sound, be totally unbreakable whether dropped on concrete or dropped in a pond, and of course be available from their LHS for about $100. When any of those expectations are not met, their blood pressure skyrockets, ulcers form and they complain bitterly to anyone who will listen. They also do not like being told it is only a hobby. 

The question at hand is ... essentially what criticisms are warranted. And of course, that criticism reflects our individual expectation. The B'mann K-27 was the spark for this discussion but it could have been any loco. B'mann has brought us a beautifully detailed loco at a bargain basement price. Since every loco I have ever owned from B'mann in HO or in LS (other then my introductory Big Hauler) has required some level of work on the mechanicals, my expectation is that this one will need some TLC as well. I have not bought one yet but ... if B'mann offered the counterweights to me to fix my K-27, you can be sure I would accept. Now, I can see that the folks I referred to in the previous paragraph are going to scream blue murder. 

But think about it. That bargain basement price comes from B'mann's business model - a single run of a loco, not continuous production. If a bug (design or assembly) slips through QC, then the consumer will see it. Demands for a different business model will lead to prices similar to those companies using a different business model - check out the prices for quality steam locos in other scales as an example or the prices on LS masterpieces from Euro manufacturers. 

Why does this topic come up now? Quite simply, a lot of folks want an affordable and accurate K series steam loco. Since you get what you pay for in most aspects of life, the current affordable K 27 is going to be what you would expect from a company that uses a business approach capable of producing an accurate model at that price point. B'mann has given us our wish ... and since everyone knows that some work will be needed to deal with some shortcomings ... 

Regards ... Doug


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Well said, Doug!

I regard every piece of rolling stock -- no matter how "ready-to-run" it is reputed to be -- as a kit.  At a minimum, I will install Kadee couplers and do some weathering.  On locos, I'll add radio control, sound and batteries.  Overall, I think that what's out there in the market place is quite good overall and I'm content to deal with the glitches that come up.

Llyn


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