# Well, it's been two months....where are they?



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

What I am referring to is the ubiquitous Bachmann _Spectrum_ Forney. I saw one for sale at Caboose Hobbies in Denver in December. I have yet to hear from anyone on MLS about their Forney purchase and I was getting curious. There has been an announcement of new Thomas related items but anything else LS seems to have been either "put on the backburner" or cancelled altogether! The Forney was a complete surprise when it showed up in Denver and once the MSRP was known, it looked as if it wasn't going to fly off the shelves! Still, I would have expected _someone_ to have given us their impressions about it by now...

So, what's the story? Anybody have one? Anybody _want_ one?


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got one. Not much to say ... yet. Major surgery in progress. 

We'll see. Check back in a few months. 

Matthew (OV)


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By SlateCreek on 23 Feb 2010 11:50 PM 
I've got one. Not much to say ... yet. Major surgery in progress. 

We'll see. Check back in a few months. 

Matthew (OV) 

"major surgery" = cosmetic surgery, or surgery to repair/rebuild things?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I've seen them at shows, so vendors do have them, I think what you said about them not flying off the shelves has been the major reason why. I also really think they didnt make very many to start with (limited production run) which is also why they are so pricey. 

I mean jeez, I couldnt touch this one with a 10 foot pole due to the price, I could pick up 2 (maybe 3) LGB Forneys for the same pocket change. BTW you could pick up Thomas, Percy, coaches and a mess of trucks and track and still have enough coin to take a nice vacation somewhere for the same MSRP.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

True Victor, but they wouldn't have the Super Socket[/b] would they?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Gee...you don't think the high price of these is due to the Ames Super Socket With Integrated Production Electronics, do you? 

Didn't the Father of the Socket promise on these very forums that the Ames Super Socket With Integrated Production Electronics would not add any cost to the locomotives? 

Could the inventor of the Ames Super Socket With Integrated Production Electronics have mislead us? 

Oh, I can't believe that. 
He's SUCH a nice guy.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe you should just buy and not wait for someone else to do your testing and evaluation. Later RJD


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## Trainwreckfilms (Aug 19, 2009)

I hear they are INCREDIBLY OVER PRICED!!!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

There were a few at Caboose when I there this afternoon. 

BTW, if you're looking for a bargain, they've got Accucraft refrigerator cars for $55. Heck, even I'm tempted at that price, and the EBT didn't have refrigerator cars! 

Later, 

K


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 24 Feb 2010 05:05 PM 
True Victor, but they wouldn't have the Super Socket[/b] would they?









Nope, no SuperSocket, no DDC, no circuit boards, no sound boards, nothing...just two wires going to the motor, Oh Bliss for me


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sooner or later they all come down in price. The three-truck Shay is finally in the $300 range. The K is still expensive at $695 but considering what you are getting, it's a reasonable sum. The Mallet is still expensive (and I wonder how that locomotive's sales turned out to be?) but it's a relatively large engine. The Forney isn't! It's a gorgeous model (incorrect cylinder height notwithstanding) but it's half the size of the K and it costs more?!! Get it around $400 and I'll buy one! You can't tell me that they wouldn't still be making a profit and at that cost they would sell a helluva lot more of them! Since I don't expect them to do that anytime soon I guess I'll just wait and see what pops up on ebay in a couple of years...


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

_Get it around $400 and I'll buy one! You can't tell me that they wouldn't still be making a profit_ 



thats not going to happen .... you are asking for a price that is less then bachmann's cost to make and ship to the US


the problem is the cost to make things in china has gone way up wages are no longer 50 cents an hour


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well in a couple years the price may just go up instead of down. Guess that's the chance you take but then it must not be a priority to have. Later RJD


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains West on 25 Feb 2010 09:14 AM 
_Get it around $400 and I'll buy one! You can't tell me that they wouldn't still be making a profit_ 



thats not going to happen .... you are asking for a price that is less then bachmann's cost to make and ship to the US





Also depends on which dealer is selling it, I can still name two seperate LHSs here that both still have *1st* *Generation SHAYS* stubbornly listed at full MSRP of $799!!! 


Let me add that while I'm tickled pink to finally have British stock to muck around with, I cannot help but feel that any apparent success ot the Thomas line may bode very very ill for any future finescale 1/20 items. Where every new 1/20 item seams to be strought with much contentious gnashing of teeth over quality, price and sales, The Thomas stuff is cheap, easy to make and very very popular. Thats not good for news for the 1/20 crowd.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Years ago, when I was first starting to sell in the USA, a well known (at the time) importer who was interested in purchasing and selling the Australian made Catnip Infra Red trackside system, told me that *EVERY* big time importer arrived at an MSRP by multiplying the landed cost by 5. 
On that basis, you can work out what it cost Bachmann to land the Forney.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, by that logic I come up with a landed price of just under $300 each.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Make that landed cost, and it seems about right to me. 

When the first battery powered Bachmann Big Haulers came out they listed at (I believe) US$169. 

Towards the end of the product line they were selling (at Costco I think it was) for US$49 and a little bird at Bachmann told me they were still making money on them. 
That same little bird also told me the single most expensive (cost wise) component in the sets was the packaging.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I cannot help but feel that any apparent success ot the Thomas line may bode very very ill for any future finescale 1/20 items. Where every new 1/20 item seams to be strought with much contentious gnashing of teeth over quality, price and sales, The Thomas stuff is cheap, easy to make and very very popular. Thats not good for news for the 1/20 crowd. 
I'd like to think it very good news for the 1:20.3 crowd. Bachmann (in theory) has a cash cow with the Bachmann stuff which is cheap to produce and--most likely--rather popular. That takes a bit of the financial pressure off of the 1:20.3 stuff to be as self-sufficient as it may have had to be in the past. Now, that assumes a business model in which profits from one product line are used to bolster others. 

Certainly in the short term--especially until "things" get better--I see Bachmann (and other manufacturers) concentrating on the bread-and-butter stuff like Thomas, eggliners, and items that appeal to the largest market and will bring in the most money. But long term, I don't see one product line "edging out" another. I think 1:20 modelers will be well supported. 

Later, 

K


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By San Juan on 24 Feb 2010 04:52 PM 


"major surgery" = cosmetic surgery, or surgery to repair/rebuild things? 

Both:

On the repair/rebuild side, the locomotive will be equipped with RCS radio control and Phoenix sound. The optical chuff will be removed and replaced with a more traditional magnetic one, both because I prefer it, and it will make one of the chief functional modifications easier. The cylinders will be lowered to where they should be with the pistons even with the axle centers, and the entire locomotive will be "lowered" to where it doesn't look like it's had a 4x4 body lift. The way the drive mechanism relates to the rest of the locomotive is being entirely reworked (more on that later) as is the suspension for the tender section. The couplers will be body mounted (Bachmann provides a kit for this, but I'm not sure I'm going to use their method, and the loco is probably going to get AMS couplers in any case.) 

Oh, and Vic ... sorry, but there is most definately a socket and associated ... stuff.... in this engine. 









Now, as to cosmetics .... Lots to do here. This locomotive is a lot more like the 2-6-6-2 than the K-27 ... in fact, I'd swear the backhead and cab interior for both the 2-4-4T and the 2-6-62 uses the same molds, but I can't prove it. Suffice it to say, the WHOLE engine will get a going over ... I need to engineer a way to remove the seam at the bottom third of the smokebox, and I'm changing a lot of details (like the headlight, for example) because my taste is different than what was shipped, as well as some things that just look, well, way too small. Rather than posting an exhaustive list here, I'll post this cab view that gives you an idea of my initial laundry list of "things to do" in there ... this is the Forney cab with the tender removed, but as I said, the Mallet is likely up for a similar rethinking.










In addition to what you see in the image, the throttle will be removed and relocated to the top of the boiler, with appropriate linkage, and several other modifications to the cab will be made.

That's for starters. Like I said, more to come.

Matthew (OV)


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

And for you standard gauge types .... how about this for a "Forney on Steroids?" 

http://naphotos.nerail.org/s/?p=163683 

Matthew (OV)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looked at prices in the latest GR... Forney $10 less than the K-27.... either the K-27 is an incredible bargain, or the Forney is outrageously priced. 

With no separate tender, fewer moving parts, fewer drivers, just plain less of everything, it just does not seem right. 

Regards, Greg


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I paid just under $700.00 for my K-27, and then got sent the wrong one, and had to go somewhere else for the right one which cost me $740 or so. (but that's another story.) 

I paid $529 plus shipping for the Forney. And, it's no K-27. For that matter, it's no Spectrum 2-8-0 "Connie" either, and I paid somewhere around $300.00 for both of the ones I have when they were new. 

It seems to be a LOT like the 2-6-6-2 with one two axle drive instead of two three axle drives. And I paid $595.00 for the 2-6-6-2. (And that's no K-27 or Connie either.... just for the record.) The cab inside is nearly identical. The drive has the oddball pivot underneath, and a lot of detail seems to have given way to the "flexible" drivetrain and rear truck to allow it to take tight radius curves -- there's stuff missing at the back, the pilot deck is way too high, as are the cylinders. 

I dunno. It seems to be on a par with the "Annie" 4-6-0 in many respects.... and if it were priced like one, I'd have two. But this is a REALLY expensive engine to take out of the box, run for a few minutes, and then start taking apart and re-engineering. 

The difference for me is, I really want an engine like this. The Edaville collection was a big part of my growing up in trains, and this engine definately has a family resemblance to those engines -- it is in all likelihood the only such engine we'll ever see in mass produced plastic large enough to qualify as 1:20 in most dimensions. Because of that, I bought one, even though it was as expensive as it was, with a vision of making it a 3' gauge "what if" version of the Baldwin Maine forneys -- imagine the SCRY management visiting Baldwin and seeing B&SR #8 under construction, and saying, "Can you build one like that in 3' gauge, and maybe not quite so heavy?" 

I know I'm one of the few who thinks of model engines this way.... and the fact that I seem to be one of a very few who actually own one doesn't surprise me a bit. If it hadn't been a dead ringer (modification needs notwithstanding) for an "old friend" I wouldn't have touched it with a ten foot pole. When I lobbied for a large scale version of the On30 forney, that's what I wanted ... not this flexible hinged nightmare on stilts.... but since it's as close as I can ever hope to get, and I think I can overcome the issues, I decided to go for it, and after several days of looking at it on a shelf over my desk, decided not to send it back and move forward with the project. 

Watch for updates here, and on the SCRY blog. 

Matthew (OV)


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow Matthew, that is quite the list of improvements and details. But it should look great when done.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 25 Feb 2010 07:13 PM 
I cannot help but feel that any apparent success ot the Thomas line may bode very very ill for any future finescale 1/20 items. Where every new 1/20 item seams to be strought with much contentious gnashing of teeth over quality, price and sales, The Thomas stuff is cheap, easy to make and very very popular. Thats not good for news for the 1/20 crowd. 
I'd like to think it very good news for the 1:20.3 crowd. Bachmann (in theory) has a cash cow with the Bachmann stuff which is cheap to produce and--most likely--rather popular. That takes a bit of the financial pressure off of the 1:20.3 stuff to be as self-sufficient as it may have had to be in the past. Now, that assumes a business model in which profits from one product line are used to bolster others. 

Certainly in the short term--especially until "things" get better--I see Bachmann (and other manufacturers) concentrating on the bread-and-butter stuff like Thomas, eggliners, and items that appeal to the largest market and will bring in the most money. But long term, I don't see one product line "edging out" another. I think 1:20 modelers will be well supported. 

Later, 

K 

Maybe so, but methinks if Thomas is the cash cow, there will less incentive to produce Spectrum line at an affordable price so they will be able make fewer production numbers at higher prices, even if the smaller runs means a great improve in the quality, smaller #s and higher prices mean far less ability to aquire, maybe I'm just pessamistic but I can see most of LS going over the rainbow pricewise for guys like me in the future.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

either the K-27 is an incredible bargain, or the Forney is outrageously priced. 
A bit of both? The K is most decidedly an incredible bargain. I don't know what their business model is with the K's production, but I can't figure out how you tool that, buy the raw materials, assemble, box, and ship and still turn a profit when it's selling on the street for $700. The math just isn't working in my head. They've got to be covering the tooling costs from some other budget--that's the only thing I can think. It's idle speculation, mind you, but I just can't wrap my head around it any other way. Is the Forney built on a different cost model? I wonder how the tooling costs compare? One thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot more "different" between the two versions of the Forney than there is with the 7 versions of the K. The variations on the K were limited to a few different tender shells, cabs, and front pilots. Everything else was identical. The Forney has a different frame for each, different cab, tender (bunker), running boards, piping... I doubt that makes the costs equal, but it's probably not proportional just to the size of the locomotive. There's also production run to consider. How many Forneys have been built as opposed to Ks? None of these variables do any of us know beyond guesstimations. 

But let's face it--the consumer doesn't think on those levels. They see a Forney selling for more than a locomotive twice its size, scratch their head and go "huh?" Perception is 90% of reality, and the perception leads the consumer to wonder if they're getting their money's worth with the Forney. I think it's a good looking loco, and will appeal to folks like SlateCreek who specifically want that locomotive. In terms of the average joe looking for a "biggest bang for your buck" loco, the K wins hands down. Pity, really. I think the Forney would be much more at home on many of our smaller railroads than the K. I know it would be on mine. 

Later, 

K


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

all of this reminds me of some of my last post here on MLS a while back... 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx 

I can't understand the logic in the prototype, pricing, wiring, build.....


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

_(Oh, what the heck. It's Sunday.... people EXPECT mesages from a pulpit on Sunday, right?)_



Yeah, but you know, Kevin, if they'd have picked one or the other and then made it to the same quality as the K, I'd have been a lot happier about the price, even if I didn't win the coin toss on whether they made the inside frame/outside frame one .... kind of like I *did* win the coin toss for inside slant/outside slant cylinder number K-27's ..... I feel as if I've spent all my money on the engineering to make it bend in half in the middle, have couplers that swing to the corners, and all that socket and optical chuff nonsense that I'm just going to dispense with anyway, not because I think it's evil, but because I don't need it, I don't want it, and I'd rather do it myself. Given my choice, I'd spend my modelling dollars on a well made, highly detailed locomotive with less LGB Legacy Technology, and more of what made the Shay, Climax, and friends the showpieces of our collection (and made the Shay go for at least three runs, maybe four, before finally playing out... but that's another story for another day.) But, I didn't get my choice, did I? So... I'm making the best of what I did get. But it bears mentioning in bold italics and underlining in case anyone important from Bachmann or Kader actually reads the stuff we write here:

*If this locomotive had the same caliber modelling and detail as the K, I wouldn't have whined one whit about the price. PERIOD.* 

Since it doesn't, I reserve the right to be a bit grumpy about it, even if it doesn't make for good advertising.

Matthew (OV)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

You see all those wires on the chassis? 
I do believe I have less wires in a full radio/battery/sound conversion, and no Ames Super Socket to contend with. 
Putting the cylinders higher than the centre line of the axles to accommodate the harness cover for the optical chuff wires was.......neanderthal. 
I have no desire to buy any more, especially when the mental programs in use are dictating 1100 curves (and the commensurate design criteria) Ames Super Socket, optical chuff, surface-mounted Chinese electronics, flywheels, and specific technical advisors. 

Done.


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