# Flagging the Col. Boone 4-4-0



## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

With all the decorative pin striping on the Col. Boone, I figure it is appropriate to "flag" it. To be historically correct, it needs a 38 star flag.

I used a paper clip and some Scotch tape to make a temporary flag support to see how it will look.






























My test size flag looks too small (but it does have 38 stars). Maybe about 10% to 15% larger would look better balanced.

Now the problem is how to mount a permanent flag staff on the front of the engine frame. Has anyone done this before?


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi,

Use the holes already there, get some stiff 1.5mm wire for the flagstaffs, which can have a top and ring in the middle from scrap plastic tube added; then find some 1.5mm inside diameter tube.

Drill the hole that is there to take it, and glue it in, again add a tiny piece of tube around the top and paint it a contrasting color - I used gold.

Excuse the dut on the pilot deck of the loco - this is a quick grab shot on mine in Kokomo, which is a repaint of the Bachmann 4 4 0, with decals designed by David Fletcher. 
The flagstaff holder is 8mm tall, and the photo is taken on close-up plus, hence the apparently large flecks of dust!




















I would not fit them permanently, as they have quite a lot of leverage, especially when inadvertently brushed against

Don't forget the bit of scrap under the pilot deck to blank off the holes, and stop the flagstaffs falling through!


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Sailordon,
Several years ago a couple of us flagged a loco or two. One that I did was my open cab Shay. I used K&S brass rod for the staff. I believe I had to use a drill or clean out the mounts, but once that was done there was a snug fit holding the brass and I was able to install or remove the flags whenever I wanted.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

On my brand new Accucraft American 4-4-0 D & RG #101, there are no existing holes in the front of frame for flag staffs. It's solid. It's going to be difficult to start and drill a hole. Chipped paint and all that good stuff, you know.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If there are no mounts for flagstaffs on the pilot, then maybe it never had them, so you're flagging the wrong horse. 

Alternatively, I'd suggest making the mounts and gluing or soldering them to the pilot. 

If the paint gets chipped, then touch it up - but accucraft paint is pretty soft. If your drills are sharp then you shouldn't have a problem.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 07 Aug 2009 07:02 AM 
If there are no mounts for flagstaffs on the pilot, then maybe it never had them, so you're flagging the wrong horse. 


Pete,

You may be right, but I think a more plausable explanation for the missing holes is that Accucraft eliminated drilling the holes as a cost reduction measure. What can you expect for $1,800. An Aster?

Also, the flagstaffs were never mounted on the pilot to my knowledge. If they had flags near track level, they would be mounted on the frame (pilot beam). 

Does anyone have historical photos of the Col. Boone with flags?


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

On mine, I used the flag holders removed from my 3-cylinder Shay, with the lamp brackets and paint removed. Drilling holes for the threaded shank can be done with a pin vise; the pilot beam is hollow. Trackside Details also have cast brass holders. 
However, my former Nevada County Grass Valley does not carry flags in the holders--instead, there are lengths of 1/16" brass rod with a 1/8" brass ball soldered to the top of each. Also, a sort-of-ornate handrail was formed from 3/64" brass rod and added between the staffs, with another at the rear of the tender. 

Larry


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

I have searched the web for a photo of any steam locomotive with flags. Found none. But I have seen it done. Can't remember where. Can't remember when. (Can't remember much of anything anymore








)

I suspect is was a special July 4th steam locomotive run somewhere. Maybe Labor Day. Maybe Memorial Day.

If I can figure out how to attach the flag staffs, every day will be 4th of July for my Col. Boone 4-4-0.














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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Don,
Not a photo of one with flagstaffs in 'location' on #101, but they had the locations for the flagstaffs - as the Bachmann model - that is from the photo of number 99 Kokomo, (same class, and close building date), photographed at Dump Mountain on the La Veta Pass route when it was the lead loco of a double header.

It is quite a well known photo being in several books on the Rio Grande.

The flagstaff holder was fitted into the end of the front pilot beam, which held the 'cowcatcher' to be exact they were generally tulip (bud) shaped at first. 
Here is a view of a pair of them - 









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This is a clip from 'The Thunder of their Passing', and is of a 2 8 0 which shows the holder, and the shape of it as well, with the 'extra' flags are in position.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Thank you Peter. I was beginning to wonder if I was dreaming it up in my imagination. 

That is a great photo of the way I would like to mount the flag staffs on the Col. Boone 4-4-0. Now I need a miniature drill press to drill the holes for the flag staffs.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Now I need a miniature drill press to 

I have a miniature drill chuck with a 1/4" shaft, designed for holding small drills in big drill presses. 

Liike this: http://www.micromark.com/MINI-CHUCK...,7852.html


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I've chucked pin vises in my press, some with wood handles seperate very easy and have an aprox. 1/4 x 1/8th" shaft. 
Chuck the drill, then chuck the vise. 

If those pilots are plastic then pin vise alone will work. 

John


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Don, 

If the pilot deck is brass, lightly put down some tape Do NOT rub it down in case it lifts the paint, where you want the holes to be, mark them and then if you have a automatic center point (like a normal one but with a spring inside) that can then be used through the tape, holding the pilot deck, with your hand underneath it. 

That should give you two little dimples in the deck, if so enlarge them slightly with another push of the auto center punch, and replace or use another piece of light colored tape - rub that harder and it should show you where you have made the dimples. 

Then you can drill on those dimples, and remove the tape = two holes for the flagstaffs, they can if required be enlarged to take the tube, and you can add the baseplate's (which are shaped like washers) etc with ease. 

Don't forget these pilot decks would have been somewhat mucky - as the 'c har' from the smokebox will have landed on them when the crew were cleaning the stuff out of the smokebox, so they can be a dull color if that helps in disguising any slight mismatch in the color. 

Best of luck!


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for the ideas on how to put this plan into operation. One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm a klutz with tools. Make them power tools and I can double the damage. The suggestions for drilling into the frame (pilot beam) sounds good in theory, but when SailorDon gets hold of those power tools, look out. I'd be lucky if my Col. Boone 4-4-0 escaped without an unintentional hole drilled in the boiler.









I'm thinking of something like the sketch below.










The staff would be like the bar stock the handrails are made from. The top cap would be the same as the end of handrail cap. The base would be made from brass and turned down to the diameter equivalent to the pilot beam width. The center hole in the base would be sized to provide a slight interference fit. The flagstaff assemblies would be super glued to the top of the pilot beam.

I'm not sure where I might find the parts for this, but I've got the super glue.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Don, may I suggest that, instead of CA, you use JB Weld. Any good hardware store, such as a TruValue, will have the 600 degree, slow curing type suitable for live steam engines. While the front deck doesn't get hot, you may eventually want to adhere to a surface that does. Like the front number plate to the stud in the smokebox front. The factory adhesive failed on mine, and the JB Weld has held up fine there. 
Too bad I am not in your area on a regular basis anymore. And, my first time on I40 was coming east to Asheville in a downpour with a convoy of trucks, so I can relate to your experience. 

Larry


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Don,
I use the same Micro Mark small drill chucks that Pete Thorton suggested below. They are a good addition to any modeler's tool box. Since they both have 1/4-inch shanks, I found that the best driver for them is made by Dremmel. It is a very small, rechargeable driver that is reversable and has variable speed.
http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/P...mel+Driver
Lowes's used to carry them, but has recently dropped them. If you can find a Lowe's that still has one, they are half price right now for about $17. A small driver makes drilling small holes with small bits easy - better than a normal size drill or expensive drill press. However, for very tiny holes or work with plastic, there is no substitute for a hand-held pin vise.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

I appreciate the advice on power tool options, but my hands have a natural vibration frequency closely related to that of my 2003 Harley Davidson Road King with Andrew's 37B cam. In summary, let's just say that ain't very steady and I'd be lucky to hit the pilot beam with the drill bit. It's miniature drill press or glue.

Larry Green's recommendation for the high temperature "weld glue" sounds good. Now all I have to do is find the parts to glue together.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Don, 
As to the quote: 
" I have searched the web for a photo of any steam locomotive with flags. Found none. But I have seen it done. Can't remember where. Can't remember when. . . " 

That's true. I've seen it done, too, with white flags on an extra ( I assume). On the C&NW. 
cheers


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Don
I thought Iput this on the thread earlier but guess I did not. You can use welding rod, plain brass welding rod for your staff and shud be the right size. building a base for it shud not be a problem.
Art


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Don, Here is a picture of a wood burning Prairie with flags. It was taken by Joan Bentz at the Whitewater Valley IN Scenic RR. Note how small the flags are. The photograph is from this site, a good source for locomotive photographs taken by rail fans:
http://www.steamrailroadphotos.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=511


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Don
On scond thought, the weldingrod wuld probably b too big. I was flat on my back a fe minutesago and realized I had the pefrect rods for your flags. Som tme ago I had bought a bag of brass rods, pipe and sch and went the garage and there it was. Thy re about two to three incheslong and about the diameter o a thin toothpick. I will bring them next steamup next week.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Art,

That sounds like a good start to the Col. Boone flagstaffs. I would appreciate it if you could bring a piece of that brass rod. Toothpick diameter is perfect for what I'm looking for.

I don't know if Steamin' at Steve's is happening tomorrow. If it is, I won't be able to attend. but if things come together a week from tomorrow, I could check out your brass rod collection then.

I'm also going to try for the Saturday "Ride Day" at Zube park which I think is this Saturday. Are any of the Steamin' at Steve's gang (yourself included) planning on being there?


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By weaverc on 10 Aug 2009 05:15 PM 



Don, Here is a picture of a wood burning Prairie with flags. 


Great photo. Those are small flags. If that is the preferred flag size for prototype live steam locomotives, I am going to take some scaling liberties with the flags for my Col. Boone 4-4-0. To scale them down in that ratio would mean one would need a magnifying glass to see if there were any flags there.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

We are not steaming ommorow. Will be next week. You might check with John Frank aboutZube. They have had a "Burn Ban" out there and HALS have been notrunning any live steam.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

I found a photo of a real live steam locomotive (replica) that I took over 20 years ago that has flags on the pilot beam. I'm sure y'all can figure out what and where this is.









Hint. It's a National Park.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Further thoughts on prototype flag use: 

http://www.midcontinent.org/collect...23576c.jpg 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3103...4f.jpg?v=0 

Extras on the C&NW" flags were placed w/ marker ights high on smokebox. 

cheers


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Tom, 

Thanks for the link. 

It inpired me to dig back through more of my old photos where I found this one of the Pershing Class locomotive of the Texas State Railroad. This photo was taken in 2003 where they had the Lone Star Flag on the port side and the American flag on the starboard side. Just like your example, these flags are mounted at the classification lights.










The following video clip was taken 3 years later where the flags seem to have fallen out of favor. 
But the locomotive is still running in fine form.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

That should have been "inspired", but the "*Edit*" timed out before I could fix it.


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