# Massoth Pulsed Smoke Unit



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Has anyone hooked up the Massoth Pulsed Smoke unit to a reed switch to generate the pulsed smoke? If so can you let me know which wires to use? I see 3 wires coming into the unit where it is marked "Input" but I'm not sure what wires are which? I assume it's one of these that generates the pulsed input? I spoke with Klaus but he's not 100% sure and I'd rather not smoke the smoke unit


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Would this help? http://swl4.com/Massoth_Pulse_Smoke...0_0408.pdf


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Paul! Actually it does. Illustration 4 shows the 3 wires coming in. It shows the middle one as the "pulse" input, which is what Klaus thought. Then it shows the ground as the top wire (in the diagram). 

So the question I still have is my reed switch has two wires. I assume one wire goes to the middle "pulse" (in illustration 4), but would the other wire for the reed switch go to the left input wire of the input or would it just go to he GND black wire?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

My guess would be the ground lead. Got to be someone out there that is familiar with these units.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Be sure you have the right version of the unit, 5v or 18v.... before you hook up anything. 

Greg


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the 19v version as I run DCC.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Jim: 
What kind of pulse generator is it? and what kind of decoder is installed in the loco?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He wants to use a reed switch to pulse the smoke unit (triggered by a magnet, no doubt) 

He will connect the reed switch to the "pulse" input on the smoke unit, the question is where does the other end go? To ground? 

My guess is that it will take a 5 volt pulse, but it is ONLY a guess, do NOT try it, get Massoth to tell you what that input wants to see. (My guess is based on the fact that the LGB hall effect sensor uses the same 3 pins)


Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

No, it is not a ground.
Think of the reed switch like a regular switch. The switch breaks the power feed of one end of the loop. To hook up your smoke unit, hook the ground on the smoke unit to the power source. Then the other leg of the power source goes to the reed switch then the smoke unit. Here is a very rough diagram










Hope this helps. Like Greg said, be very sure on the voltage of the power supply or you will most definately fry it.


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## Therios (Sep 28, 2008)

So why does it have three leads then? Are you sure about this? 

EDIT: Nevermind... I looked at the manual


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I'm trying to trigger the pulse via a reed switch with a magnet. No decoder involved. Supposedly it can be done with this unit. 

Jake, I think what you have will work but maybe not ideally. I believe the unit is rigged for constant power (see illustration 4 in the link that Paul provided above). It appears that the + and - are always powered, then there is a separate "pulse" input. I plan on hooking up the black and red power wires to my loco rail pickups. Then I'm hoping to use the Reed switch to trigger the "pulse" input. I'm guessing the "pulse" input is used by some processor to determine how often to burst the fan in the unit to generate the "pulse" of smoke.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Therios, it appears from the illustration 4 in the link Paul provided that the third input is not used, as it appears to go nowhere. 

My best guess is that I hook up one end of the reed switch to the "pulse" input (middle wire) then hook the other end of the reed switch to power black wire for ground? And also hook the input ground wire (top wire in illustration) to the ground wire also?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I mean who makes it?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

the middle position on the smoke generator is pulse, the outer most is ground


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Mohammed, this is a Massoth pulsed smoke unit, it is the 19v high performance version. 

When you say the outermost is the ground, it appears that illustration 4 in the link Paul provided agrees with you. 

My question is do I hook the reed switch to the middle wire, the "pulse", and the other end to the ground power supply or to the ground input (outermost wire) or both?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Jim: try this link, you are correct, look at figure 4

http://www.massoth.com/dlbereich/down.php?action=en&kategorie=5&gruppe=38


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

you reed switch has only two 2 wires?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

yes, only two wires, it looks like this one:  reed switch


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

most spst switches have 2 leads. I have SPDT reed switches, but not for use in trains. 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

jim: Ground input to the outer most, pulse to the center and that it is it.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Jim: I am 90% certain, I can be 99% certain on Monday. Need to do some experimenting, but I have to be at the ECLSTS friday and saturday.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 22 Sep 2011 06:34 PM 
jim: Ground input to the outer most, pulse to the center and that it is it. 



Mohammed - I think you're missing the question.

Ground connection is clear - that's documented in the Massoth instructions
Pulsed connection to the centre, that's also clear and is also covered. That would be one end of the reed.


But what does the other end of the reed need to connect to?
Ground, battery, resitive battery..... if battery what min and max voltage?



In other words, what kind of pulse signal is required at the centre lead.

I find it interesting that the Massoth manual doesn't cover this most basic hook up.
The closest I see is the diagram where the centre lead is connected to F3 of a Massoth XLS decoder and CV 114 is set to 30.
But if you look up what type of output one gets on F3 if CV 114 set to 30 one draws a blank.

It's just defined as a special output - could be anything.

Actually makes me wonder if the Massoth smoke generator is actually desugned for a basic battery or groud pulsed input.
Why would they not show the connection for that type of application?
Maybe just an oversight.

Best bet if nobody knows the answere for sure is to ask on the Massoth Forum. 


Knut


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## Udo (Nov 5, 2010)

Hello together!
All Massoth pulsed smoke generators (5V and 19V) have a seperate cable for pulse input, which will be plugged to the generator (Pulse in).
This cable has IMP / GND / and U+
If you use a reed swith, connect IMP and GND to the switch.
U+ has 6.5V for the supply of a hallswitch.
This is an information, which I got from Massoth.
Hope this helps!

Udo


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Udo on 22 Sep 2011 07:57 PM 
Hello together!
All Massoth pulsed smoke generators (5V and 19V) have a seperate cable for pulse input, which will be plugged to the generator (Pulse in).
This cable has IMP / GND / and U+
If you use a reed swith, connect IMP and GND to the switch.
U+ has 6.5V for the supply of a hallswitch.
This is an information, which I got from Massoth.
Hope this helps!

Udo

Makes sense and answers the question.

I just posted the question on the Massoth forum a few minutes ago but I don't expect a reply till tomorrow at the earliest.

Question to Jim - What is the contact rating of the reed switch you are using?

Knut


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Jim 
This is interesting. The last 2 weeks I been experimenting with smoke units that I've built. I'm trying to get the 
MTH effect. I wired the smoke unit to power on all the time and the fan on a reed switch. There is enough 
of a flywheel effect on the fan that I don't get the strong puff. I have some tiny relays now and what I'll try now 
is when the the reed switch hits the magnet, the relay will power the fan. When not on the magnet the fan wires 
will be shorted out to stop the fan. It'll be another 2 to 3 weeks before I can experiment with it. 
Keep us posted on how your is working out. Are you installing this in one of the K-27's??? 


Rodney


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

There is enough of a flywheel effect on the fan that I don't get the strong puff. I have some tiny relays now and what I'll try now is when the the reed switch hits the magnet, the relay will power the fan. When not on the magnet the fan wires will be shorted out to stop the fan. 

That's exactly the control the Zimo decoder provides - drives the fan motor and then electronically stops it. 
Don't know if the Massoth decoder provides that stopping function as well. 

But that means one has to be able to access the fan motor and the heating element in the smoke unit separately. 
Doesn't that mean you need to take the Massoth smoke unit apart to do that? 
Or is the heating element powered with just the regulat power and ground leads and only the fan is driven via the pulse input? 
I wish manufacturers would at least provide a basic block diagram of their electronics. 

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Udo on 22 Sep 2011 07:57 PM 
Hello together!
All Massoth pulsed smoke generators (5V and 19V) have a seperate cable for pulse input, which will be plugged to the generator (Pulse in).
This cable has IMP / GND / and U+
If you use a reed swith, connect IMP and GND to the switch.
U+ has 6.5V for the supply of a hallswitch.
This is an information, which I got from Massoth.
Hope this helps!

Udo

Just got a reply to my question from Massoth in Germany.

As Udo said - connect the reed switch between Ground and the pulse input.

Knut


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Rodney, yes I plan to install the pulsed smoke unit in the K-27. The Massoth (I have the high performance unit) is "okay" for smoke, but if you can get something near the MTH output count me in  P.S. I love the way my K's are running with your gear mod!!! 

Udo & Knut, thank you for the additional information. I was able to do a successful "bench" test. I powered the unit directly from the rails since the smoke unit can handle 18 - 22 volts, and I run about 19v to the rail with my DCC system. I attached the reed switch between the Ground and pulse input. When the unit first starts up the fan spins but at a low speed. When I hit the reed switch with a magnet the fan bursts and makes a puff of smoke. After I hit the reed switch the first time the fan quits spinning altogether until I run the magnet over the reed switch. I assume this is the way the unit is supposed to work, as more smoke is generated when the fan does burst if the fan is off altogether prior to the burst. 

Next I will hook it up to the B'mann K-27 and use the chuff input instead of the magnet and reed switch. This is what I did for the Turbo Smoke unit on one of my Ks and works great, but they went out of business so I'm trying the Massoth unit. 

Thanks for everyone's help! I'll provide an update once I get it hooked up to the B'mann K-27 with sync'd chuff and puff.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By jimtyp on 23 Sep 2011 10:01 AM 
I powered the unit directly from the rails since the smoke unit can handle 18 - 22 volts, and I run about 19v to the rail with my DCC system.
Jim,

By powering the unit directly from the rails, I assume you have a diode bridge between the rails and the unit.


And yes - the unit can be used with a voltage between 19 and 24 volts according to the manual, but if the voltage is higher than 19 volts, Massoth expects you to reduce the voltage to 19 volts by using the dimming function of the decoder.I would think the heating element may not last too long if the applied voltage is much over 19 volts.


Things to look at I think since the way you want to use the unit is not really covered in the manual.


Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On the MTH side: 

Better buy up the MTH smoke units while you can, since they are getting out of the 1:32 market. 

I have one, will buy more. then I can use a Zimo to run it, or hopefully the new QSI Titan. 

Greg


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut, 

No, I didn't put in a diode bridge, I figured the unit didn't need one since it was designed for DCC. However, I'm a novice at best when it comes to electronics, which is why I started this thread and have all the questions I had. Why would I need one? It seems to be working fine without one now. 

I'm not using a decoder with the unit. I have the power going to the rails, + and -, and the reed switch going to the Ground and Pulse input wires, that's it. The reed switch is just for the bench test, I will be replacing it with the B'mann K-27 chuff input. 


Greg, I'd like to get some MTH units but my understanding is the setup is more complicated than what I'm willing to take on, or requires additional decoders. Since my goal is to get the puff in sync with the chuff of the K-27 I actually don't want anymore electronics. However, if there is a way to hook up an MTH like I'm doing with the Massoth unit, I'm all ears


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

From the documentation, it appears that it must be fed DC, and is polarity sensitive. 

In Massoth's "mind" I'm sure they assumed you would connect it to the decoder as shown in the diagrams, and thus be ensured of the proper DC polarity. 

I did not see any diagram where it is connected to the DCC signal directly. 

Yes, the MTH unit is just a heating element and a fan, so electronics is needed, and it would be additional... so the best bet to use one of them is to use a decoder that can drive the fan and heating element. I know a Zimo will, and I thought that someone had done this with an ESU. 

I was just commenting because of your comment about more smoke. 

Since you are running DCC, what decoder is in the loco? 


Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, what kind of decoder are you using? I've been running a Massoth smoke maker for quite a while now with a Massoth XLS sound decoder. The advantage of using the Massoth decoder is that you can have the load sensitive smoke and sound coordinated exactly. I'm using the Massoth hall effect sensor and magnet wheel to trigger the chuff on mine, but it's good to know you can also do it with a reed switch. 

Keith


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

The reason the smoke units are polarity sensitive is if you reverse the polarity of the input then the fan will spin in the opposite direction and it would suck instead of blow.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... I think it's more along the lines of all the electronics in the smoke unit. The Massoth unit is definitely more than just a fan and a heater. 

Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

You are probably right on the Massoth unit. I would assume there is a diode in there somewhere. I thought the MTH ones are real bare bones stuff.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Greg, 

Do you know if you can run the MTH units in an R/C setup such as Airwire? I know you have alluded to the Titan possibly can, which would mean R/C is definately possible.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By jimtyp on 23 Sep 2011 01:39 PM 
Knut, 

No, I didn't put in a diode bridge, I figured the unit didn't need one since it was designed for DCC. However, I'm a novice at best when it comes to electronics, which is why I started this thread and have all the questions I had. Why would I need one? It seems to be working fine without one now. 

I'm not using a decoder with the unit. I have the power going to the rails, + and -, and the reed switch going to the Ground and Pulse input wires, that's it.



Well Jim,

As Greg said - the Massoth documentation clearly shows power to the unit to be connected to V+ and Ground of a Decoder.

V+ of a decoder is the track voltage rectified and is a DC level - not the DCC voltage that is on the tracks.

Are you actually connecting the power of the smoke unit *directly* to the track or to some + and - pins in a loco?
I'm wondering because you call the connecting points + and -. the two rails don't normally have a fixed + and - associated with them.


There is a possibility that the unit has a polarity protection diode incorporated within the unit although I doubt it.

Knut


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Reading this with interest.... As I don't run DCC and have zero interest in sound, I do like the more productive smoke units. 

Is the reed valve on the axle or wheel a commerical part, or is it something made? Thanks!


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 22 Sep 2011 07:25 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 22 Sep 2011 06:34 PM 
jim: Ground input to the outer most, pulse to the center and that it is it. 



Mohammed - I think you're missing the question.

Ground connection is clear - that's documented in the Massoth instructions
Pulsed connection to the centre, that's also clear and is also covered. That would be one end of the reed.


But what does the other end of the reed need to connect to?
Ground, battery, resitive battery..... if battery what min and max voltage?



In other words, what kind of pulse signal is required at the centre lead.

I find it interesting that the Massoth manual doesn't cover this most basic hook up.
The closest I see is the diagram where the centre lead is connected to F3 of a Massoth XLS decoder and CV 114 is set to 30.
But if you look up what type of output one gets on F3 if CV 114 set to 30 one draws a blank.

It's just defined as a special output - could be anything.

Actually makes me wonder if the Massoth smoke generator is actually desugned for a basic battery or groud pulsed input.
Why would they not show the connection for that type of application?
Maybe just an oversight.

Best bet if nobody knows the answere for sure is to ask on the Massoth Forum. 


Knut 



Knut: I did not miss the question, my answer should have been stated more clearly;I should have said " you are done" instead of "and that it is it" .


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Just to correct the record on MTH, I was at MTH Headquarters in July for completion of my ASC training and the topic was addressed... MTH is not getting out of One Gauge, nor have they made any announcements stating that.


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well that is good news... thanks Raymond... I got the rumor from 2 different people that swore that the head of MTH said it at a train show. 

I believe you of course, I know you are definitely "hooked in" much closer. 

Also, congrats on getting your "certification" for authorized MTH repairs (I think I have the right terminology). 

Any news then in getting the new DCS/DCC protosound in the 1:32 products? 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 24 Sep 2011 07:59 AM 
Just to correct the record on MTH, I was at MTH Headquarters in July for completion of my ASC training and the topic was addressed... MTH is not getting out of One Gauge, nor have they made any announcements stating that.


Raymond

Interesting...

I could have sworn that MTH made the announcement they were getting out of One Gauge.
I was certainly posted in several places on the net.
I wonder if that rumour started because MTH had all these factory sales at well below dealer price levels.


Anyway - good to know what is really going on, thanks.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By krs on 23 Sep 2011 05:23 PM 
Posted By jimtyp on 23 Sep 2011 01:39 PM 
Knut, 

No, I didn't put in a diode bridge, I figured the unit didn't need one since it was designed for DCC. However, I'm a novice at best when it comes to electronics, which is why I started this thread and have all the questions I had. Why would I need one? It seems to be working fine without one now. 

I'm not using a decoder with the unit. I have the power going to the rails, + and -, and the reed switch going to the Ground and Pulse input wires, that's it.



Well Jim,

As Greg said - the Massoth documentation clearly shows power to the unit to be connected to V+ and Ground of a Decoder.

V+ of a decoder is the track voltage rectified and is a DC level - not the DCC voltage that is on the tracks.

Are you actually connecting the power of the smoke unit *directly* to the track or to some + and - pins in a loco?
I'm wondering because you call the connecting points + and -. the two rails don't normally have a fixed + and - associated with them.


There is a possibility that the unit has a polarity protection diode incorporated within the unit although I doubt it.

Knut




Got a reply back from Massoth in Germany.

They are surprised that the smoke unit still works being connected to track DCC voltage directly.
There is no diode bridge or protection diode inside the unit.
If you connected the unit directly to a DCC voltage, you are extremely lucky that the unit is still functioning - it would normally get damaged immediately.

You absolutely must wire a diode bridge between the DCC voltage (or DC voltage on the track if that is what you are using) and the power input, V+ and ground of the smoke unit.


If you buy a ready-made diode bridge, the two ~ (or AC) leads go to the track, doesn't matter which way and the + and - connections of the bridge go to V+ and Ground respectively (of the power inputs of the smoke unit.
The Bridge will redyce the voltage between track and power input by about 1.4 volts if it is a typical silicon bridge. 


Knut


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## jnic (Jan 2, 2008)

What are the dimensions of that unit ??


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Knut, thanks for the info on the bridge rectifier. Since I'm not using a decoder to run it I see why it is best and added one from Radio Shack that can handle 50v and 4 amps - $2.19. 

When the unit starts up the fan runs at slow speed. When the pulse is applied the fan bursts. Once the pulse inputs start the fan doesn't immediately go back to running at slow speed, but the fan keeps bursting/responding to the pulse input. Once the pluses/bursts quit for a few seconds the fan kicks in again with the low speed. I assume this is by design as it simulates a loco at rest. 

Jnic, I'm not in front of the unit right now but dimensions online show 50x28x30mm.


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## Udo (Nov 5, 2010)

Hello Jimtyp!
I have a Massoth unit in one of my K27s.
I have removed all the Bachmann electronic and installed an ESU Loksound in the firebox area (that saves a lot of connections to the tender).
The Massoth unit is only switche on an off by the decoder via a relais.
The Massoth unit has an independant power supply from the rails directly (I use the 5V Version, wich works suficient only with about 7Volts).
And also a seperate Hall Sensor for the puls generation.
I also have changed the position of the inbuilt fan. So it blows to the dierection of the smoke box.
The unit has a seperate pipe on it, made by brass with a smaller diameter than the stack. So I have in principle a double wall pipe in the stack.
The inbuilt ventilator I can switch on and aff also via the decoder.
So I can in the idle situation switch that fan on and have something like a blower. The air from the fan goes via the outside of the "double pipe" out of the stack and sucks the steam so it goes much higher.
When the loco starts running and the puls comes, the pulsed plumes will also go high out of the stack, so that gives the impression from a hard working engine.
If ypou like, I can send you some pictures (give me a message with your E-mai).
Udo from China


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## Dave Crocker (Jan 2, 2008)

Jymtyp 

I had been playing with a 5v Massoth unit and thought I had a bad unit. 
I could not get any fan motion at 5v. 
After seeing Udo's response I upped the voltage to 7v and now the fan works and it is pulsed by the ground-to-pulse wire connection. 
It pulls 625ma so I'll need a lager heat sink on my LM117T regulator. 
Dave


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