# Cuts Rx



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cuts, how do you treat them?

The new reverse loop has been relocated so I can use a wye config to enter the loop, before there was only a single direction to enter that loop and after a train was turned once it needed to back through the whole loop to turn around... now the wye opens it up for much better operations, but it must go above the present layout and that requires cuts to keep the grade within reason.
My problems is sandy soil and seasonal monsoons that move the top layer of dirt on the hillsides.
I've already put up the border of cedar planks to limit the amount of water, but .... 
I need ideas on how to treat the cuts... retaining walls of cribbing and or pilings and walls or stone work.... or? I'm cutting the ground wide enough to have a drainage besides the track, but that will quickly fill if I can't keep the hillside up where it belongs.
Any ideas?


































The pics are just 'cause you always want to see....
Oh I want realistic, not necessarily pratical like large flagstones...ie; railroad, not landscaper.

Thanks in advance,
John


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Cut cedar fence boards into 1/2" square timbers and make cribbing, back the cribbing with landscape fabric to prevent sand wash through. Drain tile at the base of the cribbing to get the water away from the ballast.... 

 Continue to use boards to divert much of the water coming down off the hillside above the layout, maybe with the addition of a french drain/drain tile to get the water around the track area. 

Looks good!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rick Brown has done some really nice cribbing along a long cut, looks and works great... that would be my vote too. Use "dead men" to anchor into the "hillside". 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Nick, 
Cedar boards? Those are pecky cedar planks salvaged from my sister's home, I already have a lot of cribwork on the lower end. I have cut all my wood from the planks. 
I was looking for other treatments as well. 

I've dug the trench for track a tad deeper where drainage is a problem to allow for better draining as I'm a track floater, but since I use native rock for my ballast, I've got plenty more where that came from! I've never used barrier cloth, instead back filled the cribs with rock too big to pass through, then graduating down to smaller sizes to fill the voids, I get very little falling out or passing through. Yet I've never had so much hillside above before either. I should mention this is southern Arizona sandy soil, very coarse bits mostly broken by freezing and heat. 

Thanks Greg, 
I built mine before I read about his. Very similar. 
I was hoping to break up that look. 

John


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I had no idea what this thread was about. Looks like you need knee pads to work. 
Good start. 

I also see lots of good land behind the electric chair. looks like you could sift your own ballast.
Lots of possiblities...


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought it looks like he is getting ready to electrocute someone. Yikes. Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What? Don't you folks recognise a chair from Comisky Park? 

I use it to ponder... 

No kneepads, yet, 2 months to 60, but I do pluck thorns, hopefully out of my way first.... Excellent balllast on site and nice windy days to winnow out the dirt. 

No cut treatments besides cribbing? huh. 

So as I sat in my ponder chair it occurred to me the on the uphill side I'd use cribbing and some rugged rocks taller than the elevation. On the down hill side I'll use 'falling rock' fences as any rain will flow down away from the cut. Those will be, most likely fence boards between pilings, round poles and lumber. 

Thanks... 

John


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

John, I knew that looked familiar, sat in those at Anti disco nite with Steve Dahl! Ah the memories of a great old park, shower out in center field, great food...

Thanks.

Tom h


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

I would lay fieldstone along the walls of the cut. This will have a tendency to hold the dirt back as well as giving a prototypical impression of a cut through solid rock. If you've see pictures of Marty's layout you've seen what I'm talking about. He takes it a step further and puts hardware cloth down first and actually uses mortar to adhere his rocks to the cloth. 

I'm planning some cuts in my future so I had to deal with this same question.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Pondering chair,, good name for it. I will have to remember that.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Upon further pondering, 65 and overcast, I realised that my back boards offered opportunities. That chair is pretty comfy since I built the stand for it... the front deck folds up so Dad could back his walker in and sit... the wheels aren't much use in the dirt.... prit much had to drag it to a new ponder view today. 

While I'm sure flagstone or cribbing would do a bang up job, I hear another voice, why is it always voices? 

I'm going to try to moldel eroded sandstone bluffs. I've got tons of sand and pebbles... The First surface treatment I did for my corner bench/tunnel was the painted desert. Layers of stucco tinted cement with different sizes of media mixed in. Part of what I have in mind is like the Surf Line at Del Mar and the Grand Canyon, with a touch of Zion.... errrr.... A set back irregular bluff, with erosion channels running down to a secondary bench of sandstone nearer the track. I can knock back the angle of the grade and mix cement with various colors of shale I collect and use as ground cover in different areas. I'll buid up the bench.... til my next ponder... 

John


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Hmm, so kind of an HO scale approach of using plaster only outdoors with masonry soup? I like it! Please show us how you did it and how it turns out, it'll be interesting to see.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Manco on 17 Jan 2010 07:43 PM 
Hmm, so kind of an HO scale approach of using plaster only outdoors with masonry soup? I like it! Please show us how you did it and how it turns out, it'll be interesting to see. 
As I see it, it won't be soupy, much more like mud that I will trowel to general shape and then use water to erode for a final look. Probably from a spray bottle.. hopefully the water will soften and trowel marks left behind.

The only problem I had with the Painted desert were from my 'Gandy Dancers' digging tunnels in it! Wood formed the back wall and I shovelled dirt in and then covered with the color mix. The little buggers found weak spots and ...., but they work for peanuts and are cute as heck!

The trick for me will be getting he tops of the crete section to match with the hillside behind. The cedar planks will help diverting water from the layout, but their main purpose is to keep the Javalina out. So far has worked, last night the herd was about 10 strong, ranging from 20lbs to 250... the bigger guys weren't with this herd. 

Yesterday I cut in all the track, mind you when I started I used sectional track and while two legs of the wye are standard sections, one leg has a switch in it and that really changes the geometry so to have smooth flowing lines I had to cut the stainless steel rails. I cut the rails of the ballasted track, in place with a Roto-zip w/the metal cutting blade. It did leave big burrs, some snapped off with pliers, but others needed filing and scraping, say 2 minutes each. I'm very happy with the outcome and as luck would have it, one section removed fitted in another place perfectly! I should knock on wood, I don't usually get that lucky!

As is my luck, for some reason all my railclamps are brass!So in the following pics there is one place where the rails aren't connected yet....


























As you can see, my little addition nearly doubles the size and affords a great place for Vail, the town between the tracks... in the 1890's Vail was served by the SP and The El Paso and SouthWestern. The historic Railway depot in Tucson is the EP& SW!
The two planks on the ground show where I'll creat terraces for a hillside town.
I shot these this am from my deck.

Notes from the ponder chair; The grade still needs lowering! This is a great hobby!

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't have anything useful to add except to say you have some wonderful scenery for an outdoor railroad, which looks pretty good


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is what I did. I lined the bottom with concrete. I lined the sides with rocks. When it rains the cut becomes a creek. But since everything is anchored it does not make a differance.

I take ballast material and mix it dry with portland cement. Then I ballast my track. I then wet it to activate the cement. With the runshing water it stays pretty much in place. There are areas that wash outl but that is because my mixture was off. 

Once you have leveled the concrete side to sidell and get your grade set you never have to touch it again. Another thing is you could make a water feature of water trickling down the sides of the track. ou can add all kinds of rocks and things to dress up the cut.











Yea in AZ we got some great views to look at while we work on our RRl












I see you have a chair for resting and viewing and contemplating yur work.

I do the same.

Sometimes I take morning coffee out and sit in my chair and plan the work for the day.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey!A positive comment is Always useful!









When I went a lookin' for property, I was dead set against postage stamp lots and 'elbow' neighbors... looked in Red Rocks and out in the middle off nowhere were about 16 homes all nestled together... 50 miles catty corner across town I found my quiet paradise.... under our boys in blue's turn to approach a bombing run...my lot only has one comon corner with 2 other lots. After spreading birdseed, I've raised a fine crop of 'football' quail, I sit, coffee in hand and a pocket full of peanuts and I Ponder in my PonderChair.



















Yesterday morning we had had weather! SoCal's storm blew through. We only got .04" of rain, but we did get some strong winds...










We got some snow and it stayed where it belongs on the mountain tops.... above left. Got lucky with the toppled cars, no broken couplers...

Back to my cuts....

Problems with Pondering is more great ideas run through my brain.... I really like the look of the raw dirt as I cut through it and my buddy suggested stabilizing the soil so it won't erode. I looked online and saw that for landing strips and dirt roads one company sprays it with an acrylic liquid, made me woder about spraying it with rattle can clear coat....

I think the sharp wedge of cliff inside the reverse loop near the switch will make a great train viewing park and that will be cribbed....(top pic, infront of passenger car and caboose)
Middle pic; reason for a pocket of peanuts ... I am The Peanut god!

JJ, 
I'm a floater... if I do the dirt/crete mud, I'll extend it down to form a drainage ditch, but there won't be a concrete bed. Should I get a windfall and get more track this reverse loop will go back down where I first envisioned it; 40' to the left of the Ponder chair, I'd keep the wye and straighten the track with the rerailer so that it goes where the chair is in the bottom pic. In that config I had a great place for a lockable carbarn, now it's kinda cramped....

As with everything.... it's all subject to change....

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 17 Jan 2010 06:44 PM 
Upon further pondering, 65 and overcast, I realised that my back boards offered opportunities. That chair is pretty comfy since I built the stand for it... the front deck folds up so Dad could back his walker in and sit... the wheels aren't much use in the dirt.... prit much had to drag it to a new ponder view today. 

While I'm sure flagstone or cribbing would do a bang up job, I hear another voice, why is it always voices? 

I'm going to try to moldel eroded sandstone bluffs. I've got tons of sand and pebbles... The First surface treatment I did for my corner bench/tunnel was the painted desert. Layers of stucco tinted cement with different sizes of media mixed in. Part of what I have in mind is like the Surf Line at Del Mar and the Grand Canyon, with a touch of Zion.... errrr.... A set back irregular bluff, with erosion channels running down to a secondary bench of sandstone nearer the track. I can knock back the angle of the grade and mix cement with various colors of shale I collect and use as ground cover in different areas. I'll buid up the bench.... til my next ponder... 

John

Don't worry about voices in your head. I have one and he just called all his friends and invited them over for supper bowl sunday. I may be a little out of it Supper Bowl Sunday









PS Your RR is really turning out great. Keep posting pictures on your progress.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes sir that RR looks as real as it gets. Man you must be out in the middle of no where. Yep I like room which I have and not to close neighbors but not this bad.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 22 Jan 2010 09:39 AM 
Yes sir that RR looks as real as it gets. Man you must be out in the middle of no where. Yep I like room which I have and not to close neighbors but not this bad.







===============================================================
Sir, do I detect a tad of sarchasm in your post?
It's s real as it gets for a railroad in a rock garden...but ....

Only 1 mile of dirt between me and pavement, 10 minutes to a freeway, 20 miles from downtown Tucson. Over a couple of hills behind me are city folk and their housing developments all crowded together so they can enjoy the country life! lol But as the saying goes.... location... It's ok we won't miss ya out here and I won't miss being in there! lol

Rained all night and the Rincon Mtns infront of me have a nice dusting of snow... 

One of my larger Gandy Dancers has decided to start a mine inside the new loop....



















The above pic is looking north to The Catalina Mtns on the north side of Tucson.










The miner has opened a new mine overnight....









Now I'll need to run a spur!

The rain washed out all the detail I liked when I cut through the dirt so it's back to casting something...

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

You said that you dug your treanches a little deeper to help drainage. Why not put some 1/2 inch plastic pipe at the bottom with some holes drilled in sloping down hill to add to the drainage. 

I really like the looks of your layout.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

JJ, 
My sandy soil(?) doesn't puddle up much, any form of grade sends it running. On the rest of the road there are no trenches for ballast, the track was raised an inch on the rocks on the ground. I like using run off to model our washes... it tickles me fancy to have No Fishing signs posted on my wash bridges! There was a prototype sign like that in me old memory banks! In the mid 50's when our family drove from our Mission Hills home in San Diego (2283 Whitman Street, pre zip codes!) to the Boy Scout camp near Julian, (I think... been a couple of years...) we would pass a RR bridge over a wash and see the sign. It became a family joke.... 

Back to the Rx, I figure that if I harden the landscape between the backboards and the cut, then I'll only need to move water, it's dirt that washes into ballast that creates problems and blocks drainage. 
The latest brainstorm is to use spray foam to form the support system and use a one ended hacksaw to carve to rough shape. Then cement it up. I like Cement All because it doesn't shrink and is fine grain, I add the texture I like and use stucco tints for color. In the pic of the Catalina snow above, 2nd down, on the right side is the kind of cliff I want to do, that orange brown caliche` clay. The softer bluff above has worn away and at a lesser angle than the denser clay below. The erosion patterns in the softer stuff would change as often as it rained creating a multitude of erosion channels in the clay. Wind smoothes out the top. I might try to sneek a Mesa Cave dweller in there too... but as Mom used to say; we'll see. 

Adding a simple reverse loop with a wye has certainly opened the railroad up for operations, without the wye, it was a Pain in the (back there), to turn a train around a second time required backing the train all the way through it. Now it can be entered from either direction and Battery power eliminates a battery of DPDTs or fancy electronics... which suits me better! 

Sorry I'll miss your party, would be nice to run trains with you, if the game goes sour.... 

John 

while I wait after editing...









The tunnel on the left forced the loop to go where it is. I couldn't figure out how to make a wye here! The old loop took off from under the sierra coach around the corner.

Hey! No Fishing from bridge! hee hee

JC


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

John are you wanting to or thinking of using cement to control the loose dirt on the banks?
I have used alot of cement to make mountains of all sizes
Dennis


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yep. 
Was even trying to think of a way to stabilze a dirt embankment to make latex molds.... so I could cast the natural look. 
But instead of rock castings I want to do the eroded sandstone formations. 

There will be some sections of cribbing and large stones of interest... mine tailing specimins...but in between I want to go for the look of running on a bank in a dry wash. I can make that wall of the cut higher and angled back to the border of cedar planks. 

Right now I'm more thinking out loud than casting my plans in stone.... 

On another note, in my post , a couple up, I mentioned the Bunny mine. Today it was all filled in and no trace was left behind! Quite odd. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Updates;
I did crib the corner lot. Word is the lot will be a train viewing stand and park as the RR skimped on good filll.
The cuts were lowered and smoothed out elevation wise. Some rocks have been added for effect.
The curved section that isn't in a cut will be on a low trestle with cribbing bents and stringers. I need to keep the drainage area wide to avoid deep washes (erosion).








I've begun landscaping. 3 terraces on the right and winding roads on the left.

















We've had some hard rain and the hills have held up so I may not need to do much more to the cuts except for a couple of piling retaining walls







Perhaps like this....

Til next time...
John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gorilla Snot! If I find I need it... I had the 3 rain storms that turned into southern snow storms and the 'cliffs' have held up well. The anti-critter planks also diverted the 50' run of hillside runoff...
So my true nature has won out for now.. It's good enough for now

What do you think?








The red slash on the right is a filled trench of red shale, in time it will harden enmass and the native ground will erode away from it. Right now some loose dirt washed over it.
Can't rush Ma Nature, the Artist! 









Now it's time to figure out the trestle out on the loop. I've decided on closed piers and a double stringer arrangment I saw on an old woodcut. The digging has begun ... a new hill is growing
and the old riverbed cleaned.










There will be more piers than what you see there, actually those are extra trestle bents ...and wood blocks

My string of freight cars really helped me see the grade when I was smoothing them out. Yeah I used the quick 0-5- 0 motive power!









This concludes the latest update, hopefully the wind will die down and I can make my saw dust pile bigger!

John


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I did cliffs by putting up forms made of rebar, chichen wire and hardware cloth tied together with galvanized wire. 









Then I put landscape cloth behind the wire and backfilled with dirt. 









Then I covered the whole thing with fiberglass reenforced stucco base with some red color mixed in then several aplications of stucco color coat in different colors. I applied the stucco with gloved hands which I found easier than trying to get the shapes I wanted with a trowel. Finally I used some concrete stains to highlight the drip areas. This has stood up for 6 years now and still looks good.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Wow Winn, 
Great job! 
That's pretty much the look I wanted. Before I got lazy.... 
I don't envy all the dirt you moved though! 
The box canyon looks like a perfect place for a John Wayne movie! 

Thanks for sharing your art. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Another update; The afore mentioned trestle has become 2 bridges. The first is done 'enough'.... simple structure to get the trains rolling. Later if I need fancy...well I can always redo it at a later date.


















I may do Winn's treatment of the bluff where the rock is now....
As these are curved bridges, I decided the center piers will offer the best lateral support, the second bridge will be a tad shorter and I may go with a simple box truss or a shallower inverted A like the first, but more symetrical... but who knows? Not me! lol It's usually what strikes me fancy at the time of he build.








The abutment on the left was designed to go over an existing round tailed squirrel's hole,(dark shadow) the far left half has a floor for the ballast while the right side is open bottomed and the whole thing filled with rock.
Instead of 1/2" timbers, I went with 5/16 to gain a more spindlely look of the 1900's.
The grade in the first pic is due to the camera angle, it's not as steep as it looks.

I hope the pics show up....
John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I've started the second bridge. Though the box pier is the same as the first I set it lower so the box truss can go over it.
I didn't want an over built structure so on the box truss I'm using 1/4" timbers for a more lacy look. It's only half done, but set in place to see how it will look.
Todays a work day so I'll probably finish it tomorrow, depending on the wind, my woodworking shop is on my open back deck, it has a roof so I have shade.
My portable CD player has either The Chase or The Wrecker playing...helps me through the tedious phases...

The dirt in the riverbed isn't where it belongs, it was the end of the day and I wanted to see how the bridge was looking.
John


















































All the wood is cedar and will turn silver grey.
John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

WOW John It really looks great. I got my Feathers in the mail today and I am going to try and split rocks this week end


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks JJ,
Be sure to wear your goggles!

I wasn't happy with the left bridge and rebuilt it somewhat....


















































I like this shot because it shows the elevation gained on the new loop. The grade appearrs steeper because the track is curving away from the camera...


Have fun.
John


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

John, the newly constructed bridge looks right nice, very functional providing good drainage of the dry wash when the monsoons hit. 

Just read through the rest of the thread and enjoyed seeing the progress. When I built the present PCSRR, I added a "ponder chair" before starting the layout...










This is what we've done with cribbing just prior to laying the track.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Stan,
Thanks for the kind words and sharing your pics.
I think the Ponder chair is one of the most important building tools I have! Rarely do I act on my first thought, because after thinking about it and visualising I'll see upcoming problems or shortcomings...

This is where it all began...








That loop still exists!
John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

Your railroad is looking great! It reminds of a desert layout built by a man named "Tiny" (forgot his last name) who used to be on MLS and LSC until his passing a few years ago. Great guy. Maybe Stan remembers.


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