# The old time favorite...scale.



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

In the Model making forum on my thread , how to take apart a 0-4-0, AG wrote the locomotive photo I was trying to use as a model looked very narrow gauge, this confused me. I then thought: If my kitbash built from the said photo was to be both narrow gauge and also in 1/29 scale as my mallet , it could not be on the same track, it would have to be on another proportionally narrower track. Is there such a thing as 1/29 scale narrow track? I thought one could add a third inner rail to standard large scale track for running narrow gauge. I believe I have seen this on photos of both real trains and model trains.

Incidentally. I built the loco from the photo , it looks narrow gauge but it is not since it is 1/29 scale, runs on 45mm standard track and is built on an LGB 0 4 0 .

In a thread about my Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet AG asked me if it was narrow gauge , I was confused again. 
Then I thought a model of a 2 8 8 2 narrow gauge mallet would either have to be extremely large to run on standard 45mm track or as above run on a proportionally narrower 1/29 scale narrow track.
Did 2 8 8 2 narrow gauge mallets exist in real life? Do they exist as models? I have not found anything on this and it seems a bit absurd to have such a large loco be narrow gauge.

Let me see now:

Standard gauge 4 ft 8 1/2 inches (1.435 m)
Narrow gauges 3 ft. (.9144 m ) 2 ft.(.6096 m)
So therefore OJ	gauge being 24.0 mm	could be used with models of 3 ft narrow gauge prototypes in the same scale as standard gauge? I mean if I have a 1/29 model on standard gauge and I want a 1/29 scale 3ft. narrow gauge model to look accurate to scale next to it , it should be on OJ 24mm track. Right?
And what about if I want a 2 ft narrow gauge model in the same 1/29 scale next to them ? What model track width would be correct?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

G $cale is an anomaly, we put it all on one track.
You are correct narrow ga. should be narrower, but as you see when 45mm =3' everything gets bigger.
G29 is not true to the ga. 1/32 is the correct scale for 45mm ga. Aristo invented the scale. to make it appear that Standard scale could aproximate in size, the 1:22.5 of the time which was LGB's scale on meter ga. track.
See?
I think it evolved this way because G tends to be a social size where we run our trains with others. MTH is 1:32 and similar to Aristo, it's mostly dormant. Accucraft is 1:32 live steam and healthy.
No matter how we explain it, it never really makes sense.
LGB used a rubber scale, they were building adult toys, not scale models. There in lies the rub.
John


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

*.*

Here is a photo with differen size tracks. So what's the story here?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Whatever scale you choose, just divide the actual prototype gauge by that number, and that's your scale gauge.
3 ft. (.9144 m ) divided by 29 (as you seem to be a 1/29 person = 31.5mm
2 ft.(.6096 m) divided by 29 = 21mm
I guess you are going to hand lay track!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Interesting subject - 1/29th scale narrow gauge.
I don't think anybody makes anything like that.

In Europe they run 1/22.5 narrow gauge and standard gauge all the time, even together.
The scale of course is 1/22.5; for Meter gauge the track is 45mm, what we are used to, and for standard gauge the track is 64mm gauge.
One can buy 3-rail track (45mm/64mm) and also all types of combination swtches
http://www.modell-werkstatt.de/gleissystem/weichen-64mm/index.htm
and of course 1/22.5 scale locos and cars running on 64mm track.
All ties in nicely scale and gauge wise.

Selecting 1/29 scale as standard gauge equipment on 45mm track was a pure business decision at the time, the very first Aristocraft items didn't actually have any scale specified, just that the "standard gauge" boxcars were compatible with the then already existing LGB equipment which were models (or toys) of narrow gauge equipment.

Coming up with the right track gauge for 3ft narrow gauge for 1/29 scale equipment gets a bit tricky since the 1/29 scale and 45mm gauge don't relate.
For 1/29 scale standard gauge equipment, the model track gauge should really be 49.5mm not 45mm.
So the question is, does one scale the model 3ft gauge from the incorrect 45mm track gauge or the 1/29 scale of the equipment - I would tend to use the equipment as the base so the 3ft gauge would end up as close to 32mm which happens to be the standard gauge track for O-scale.
So lots of that available commercially - I vaguely remember that somebody also makes 3-rail switches 45mm/32mm.
Now all one has to build is 1/29 scale narrow gauge locos and cars; the narrow gauge equipment that Aristocraft sold (old Delton molds) was 1/24 scale.

knut


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

To add to the pot,

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/WhatIsFScale.html


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

krs said:


> Interesting subject - 1/29th scale narrow gauge.
> I don't think anybody makes anything like that.


There is nothing commercially available, but im doing it! 
I invented 29n2 scale a decade ago, and as far as I know, I am still the one and only person modeling in that scale:

29n2 scale webpage:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/29n2/29n2-page1.html

A 29n2 scale 2-foot gauge locomotive next to a 1/29 scale standard gauge locomotive:



















and a 29n2 scale freight car:











When I get my Garden railroad up and running, I plan to have a section of 29n2 scale track on the railroad.

I have never heard of anyone modeling in 29n3 or 32n3 scale, as far as I know, they simply dont exist..

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> Let me see now:
> 
> Standard gauge 4 ft 8 1/2 inches (1.435 m)
> Narrow gauges 3 ft. (.9144 m ) 2 ft.(.6096 m)
> ...


Yep, you have the right idea! I have never heard of OJ scale before..
But your math isnt quite right..

3-foot gauge in 1/32 scale is 28.6 mm.
There is no commercial scale/gauge combination with track of that gauge.

3-foot gauge in 1/29 scale is 31.5 mm
O-scale track at 32mm is a nearly perfect match.

32mm O-scale track is often used to represent 2-foot gauge prototypes, in 1/19 scale..This is common in England and in live steam
However is there no good standard gauge match for it! 

In the live steam world you often see dual-gauge track.
45mm can represent 3-foot gauge in 1/20.3 scale,
then the 32mm can represent 2-foot gauge in 1/19 scale.
the models are very close to the same scale..

but! there is almost no where in the world where 3-foot gauge and 2-foot gauge ran side by side..
In the prototype world (in the US anyway) you generally want Standard gauge and 3-foot gauge together, 
or Standard gauge and 2-foot gauge together..there are no commercially available models that allow us to have both, in the same scale, at this time..
If you want to model one of those combinations, you are forced to scratch-build, or heavily kitbash your narrow gauge models..as I have done with 29n2 scale.

1/32 scale standard gauge = 45mm "Gauge 1" track.
32n3 scale = 28.6mm track = nothing commercially available.
32n2 scale = 17mm track = HO scale is 16.5mm! very close, and could work nicely.

1/29 scale standard gauge = 45mm "Gauge 1" track. (yes, im well aware!  )
29n3 scale = 31.5mm track = O scale track at 32mm is just fine.
29n2 scale = 21mm track = Im using S-scale track which is 22mm.

Scot


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot 

It is time for your magic illustration. One picture is usually worth a thousand words, but your scale illustration will save us many thousand more.

It should be a stickie at the top of one of the forums.

Chuck


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Scot
> 
> It is time for your magic illustration. One picture is usually worth a thousand words, but your scale illustration will save us many thousand more.
> 
> ...


thanks Chuck, here you go! 










Scot


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

To make things even more confusing, there are many other prototype gauges that fall under the umbrella of "narrow gauge" besides just 2 and 3 foot gauges. For example meter gauge (1 meter between the rails) is common in Europe, represented by 1:22.5 scale on G track. "Cape gauge" (3 feet 6 inches) is common in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and several other British Commonwealth countries as well as Japan, represented by 1:24 scale on G track. Then there was a whole plethora of oddball industrial gauges, ranging from 18" inches to almost standard gauge. I've seen a picture of an 0-4-0 saddletanker built in England for a cement works in India to a gauge of 4 feet 3 inches, which is almost exactly what G track measures out to in 1:29 scale. So yes, in a manner of speaking, your 1:29 locomotives, while modeled after standard gauge prototypes, are in fact narrow gauge!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks

Chuck


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Scales?

Heck, I have a multitude of scales on this critter alone!










Then there is the vehicle required to transport him!










OK, enough about scales. Back to the regular thread.

Have fun with whatever scale you like best,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, In the other post you only mentioned that you had a 'mallet'. You never originally said that it was a 2-8-8-2.
Commonly available mallets are made in all of the popular scales in Large Scale except perhaps 13.7.
That is why I asked because the little loco you chose to model was a porter saddle tank which is narrow gauge and looks very narrow gauge. Just putting a small cab on is not always convincing when 'downscaling'. Narrow gauge locomotives have distinctive aspects like more overhang on each side, more squat with lower center of gravity, larger domes and stack in their relative proportion etc. It all depends on specific prototypes though. Some narrow gauge is only a 18" or so up to floor level but you would break your neck falling from the footplate of a BigBoy.

I posted the other tender loco from ??? (can't remember what country is was now). It was actually also a narrow gauge loco but was more in a style that could pass for standard gauge. It had a very similar wheel size and spacing than the LGB porter that you wished to convert. It may have been a better choice to fit in with other standard gauge locomotives.

32mm track is very close to 3ft gauge in the scale of 1:29. The Brits use 32mm gauge with narrow gauge tie spacing for 2ft gauge prototype modelling (1:19, SM or 16mm to the foot scale) so that may be your best option although the tie spacing will be very spaced. Look at Peco track below You can also get duel 45mm and 32mm track from Sunset Valley but the tie spacing is also very spaced as it is really modeled for 1:19 rather than standard gauge scales. 

http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/SM-32/SL-E695%20plan%20sheet1.pdf
http://www.sunsetvalleyrailroad.com/track---rail.html

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Goodness gracious me, great balls of fire! All this is going to take a while to sink in!

One does understand the effort made to stick to one scale. Everything would look so real if all large scale models available and built by modellers where on the same scale. Of course that will never happen because we all want the freedom to model whichever scale we want.
In my particular case, the most useful information related to my particular query in this thread and a real revelation is the contribution by Scottychaos and what he wrote on his link page. I agree. Fantastic to make 45mm standard gauge be the narrow gauge and model gigantic standard gauge trains on 4.75" track. " could be done..but very expensive!" Scott wrote in 2004. Is apparently done today as Krs and Scott inform us. Would be nice to see this incorporated into Scott's chart. But the chart would have to include more model track widths.

For probably the great majority of us it is more in tune with our pockets to establish 45mm gauge to run models of standard gauge trains, and to decide on a scale to fit. The best scale to choose would be the one that more closely matches the 45mm track. From Scott's chart "Gauge 1 1/32 scale" " is it " because the model trains can then be correctly scaled right down to the wheel spacing. 

Problem is we all start by simply buying a train set or Locomotive that we like. And quite rightly so since fun is the objective. In my case it was the LGB Olomana, much later to be informed by you people that LGB is not so particular about scale. They are very particular about quality which in my opinion more than makes up for it. I then went on (like I imagine many starters do) to buy different "G scale" locos of different makes. I was very pleased when Chuck informed me that by chance all my locomotives fit into very nearly the same scale and would look correct together. Then I go and mess it all up. I just had to get the Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet. Oddball scale, 1/29 definitively looks wrong with the Bachmann's and LGB's. So to try to have company for the mallet I kitbash a 0-4-0 LGB and reduce the Cab size to 1/29 scale. I am pleased with the result. The wheel spacing may be wrong, but maybe not, it is a standard gauge 1/29 scale small loco. It is an imaginary model, not a scaled down model. And appropriately it remains a Lake George & Boulder , an imaginary railroad. 

The reason I became interested in narrow gauge in 1/29 scale is that my kitbash does not look as strikingly small next to my Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet as I wanted it to. That is I realize now because even though it is a 0-4-0, the smallest possible type of loco, it is based on a LGB 0-4-0 body which is in a bigger scale than the Aristo-Craft mallet. The mallet being one of the biggest locomotive of its era, I want one of the smallest loco of the same era to put beside it. Both on the same 1/29 scale of course. I now realize that a really small loco must be on narrow gauge. 

Thanks to you people and specially to Scott, a partner and teacher in 1/29n2 and to AG that made me questin the narrow. I'm on my way to the next project allthough it will be a long time till I can start on it.. A 1/29 scale version of the loco on the photo to run on 1/29 scale narrow gauge . I am not suficiently fanatical or so much of a purist to reduce the wheel spacing on a motorbase or to invent a new (it looks like 1 1/2 ft) scale track in 1/29 scale. So I'm happy to buld it based in S-Scale 22mm track and motorblock to represent 2ft narrow gauge in 1/29 scale. 

Help in aquiring a 0-4-0 S-scale motorblock appreciated.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot and TTT,

Way back in 2008, Ibought a new Fn3 Accucraft C19 #346 electric. About six weeks after I got it, I mishandled the tender and broke the brass cast valve water spigot on the side. Through Cliff at Accucraft, he got in touch with George Konrad MMR and George had the part and offered to repair it for me. George did much of the design work for Accucraft at that time. I gave George the engine and tender at the Big Train Show. He took it home and had it repaired in less than two weeks. I was invited down to his home in Beaumont, CA to pick up the finished engine/tender and to see his outdoor layout and to visit his beautiful workshop wheRE he does his magic.

Long story short, on his workbench he had a F scale standard gauge D&RGW steam engine, #3371. This engine is massive to say the least. He put my "little" Fn3 next to it as a comparison. It looked very small next to that F scale monster. AND a Accucraft Fn3 is NOT a small engine in itself! I saw the completed engine in 2009 at the Big Train Show on exhibit.

Here is a link to George's site and the pictures of his #3371:
www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, you can have the 45mm "G gauge" be the standard gauge or the narrow gauge!
In my 29n2 scale, im having the 45mm track be the standard gauge, then using narrower track for the 2-foot gauge..

There are some people who use the 45mm track to be the narrow gauge, then make *wider* track for the standard gauge! F-scale is one example..

Our well known Bachmann Spectrum locomotives are Fn3 scale, 1/20.3 scale, they are models of 3-foot gauge prototypes running on 45mm track,
then if you want to model standard gauge with them, you need track with a gauge of 70.64mm. that would be "F-scale", (not Fn3) standard gauge models, 
also in 1/20.3 scale..some people have done some standard gauge modeling in F-scale:

http://www.ironcreekshops.com/

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/

Taking it to the extreme, is 2-foot gauge modeling on 45mm track,
7/8n2 scale, 1/13.7 scale, and also modeling some standard gauge along side it.
Now the standard gauge track has to be 104mm! 4.12 inches!
a 40 foot standard gauge boxcar in that scale is about 1 foot tall and 3 feet long.

I have seen some 7/8n2 scale modules where people have a section of standard gauge track, and a standard gauge boxcar, just for scale..

the locomotives and their cars are 7/8n2 scale on 45mm track.
in the back is a standard gauge boxcar:










photo from: http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?topic=16681580.0

I have never seen anyone model a 7/8 scale, standard gauge locomotive before..

Scot


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> To add to the pot,
> 
> http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/WhatIsFScale.html


I doubt if F-scale will go anywhere, it was created by NMRA to give 1:20.3 scale on 45mm track a name, ie Fn3, but it doesn't fit into the overall model railroad scale scheme at all.

MOROP, the equivalent of NMRA for modellers outside North America, have published this nice which ties everything together nicely.
Maybe a bit hard to follow at first - it's part of the NEM specification 010, the English version of that is here but unfortunately they didn't replicate the cart in the English document.
http://www.morop.eu/en/normes/nem010_en.pdf

The chart shows nicely how narrow gauge equipment runs on the track gauge of the next smaller standard gauge equipment.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Great website, Scotty.

Gives one a good feel what one is into when modelling narrow gauge in 1/29 scale



Scottychaos said:


> Yes, you can have the 45mm "G gauge" be the standard gauge or the narrow gauge!
> In my 29n2 scale, im having the 45mm track be the standard gauge, then using narrower track for the 2-foot gauge..
> 
> _There are some people who use the 45mm track to be the narrow gauge, then make *wider* track for the standard gauge! F-scale is one example._


Trouble is if you do that (45 mm as narrow gauge) you better have some really deep pockets.
F-scale loco runs $3500.- and up
F-scale boxcar kit $300.-
F-scale flat car kit $200.-


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

krs said:


> Great website, Scotty.
> 
> Gives one a good feel what one is into when modelling narrow gauge in 1/29 scale


Thanks!  glad you enjoyed it..



krs said:


> Trouble is if you do that (45 mm as narrow gauge) you better have some really deep pockets.
> F-scale loco runs $3500.- and up
> F-scale boxcar kit $300.-
> F-scale flat car kit $200.-


yeah..thats definitely an issue..
Im planning to model Maine 2-footers in two scales, 29n2, which I will incorporate into the garden railroad..and some dabbling in 7/8n2 scale. I have a 7/8n2 scale SR&RL flatcar that I built about 10 years ago, and eventally I would like to build a SR&RL caboose and a locomotive..but even the 2-foot stuff in 7/8n2 is ridiculously expensive! so im not going to do a ton of modeling in that scale..and I highly doubt I will ever have any garden railroad built to 7/8 scale..I will probably run them on the live steam tracks only.

oh wait! I forgot the third scale for Maine 2-footers, On2! 
I dabbled in that as well..but gave it up and packed it away..the reasons why are mentioned on my On2 page:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/On2index/index.html

Maybe when I retire I will make a small On2 indoor layout..
thats 20 years away still though.

Scot


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

trainstrainstrains said:


> One does understand the effort made to stick to one scale. Everything would look so real if all large scale models available and built by modellers where on the same scale. Of course that will never happen because we all want the freedom to model whichever scale we want.


Not so much wanting to model in the scales we want but more because most people mainly use the same 45mm gauge track which they can all run on. To accurately depict different prototype gauges used, the scale changes instead. If we changed from European narrow gauge model trains to USA ones in the same scale we would otherwise have to replace all the track to a slightly different gauge unless they were both the same prototype gauge of course.
In the UK 1:19 scale models are popular running on 32mm track to depict 2ft gauge but the same models are often adjustable to 45mm gauge which is not prototypical at all but made that way so the trains are also suitable to run on people's 45mm gauge layouts. Just the way it is with Large Scale trains and prototype railroads too. The gauged track is the main infrastructure of the railroad. Everything else is adapted to fit in with that.

5'3" or 1600mm broad gauge is common in Ireland and Australia but that would require modeling in 1:35 or thereabouts on 45mm gauge track but it is unlikely to happen except perhaps by an individual. It does not therefore become part of the general scheme in the approach to the hobby.

The recently produced Accucraft NA class Puffing Billy is 2'6" gauge prototype so exceptions were made in perfect scaling for the gauge so it was made to 1:19 which is already an established modelling scale and it is much the same size as USA 1:20.3 models. It would otherwise have to be done accurately in 1:17 which would be a huge ugly duckling next to any other model in the hobby. It is not always about perfect scale for the gauge either. If our trains are all about the same size they look more compatible with each other even though reality is quite different.

The different scale thing is present for very simple reasons when you are aware of the entire picture but it takes some time to digest, understand and appreciate all the various aspects and details. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

It is a matter of standards.
Efforts are made to standardize for convenience but they are not always successful. 

Taken from Tgauge.com "launched in Japan in 2006 TGauge takes its name T from Three. Three relates to the 3mm track gauge.The scale size of T is 1:450, which makes it around half the size of Z and one third the size of N. It’s not until you actually see these trains in real life that you believe how small they are!

3 September 1967, was the day on which traffic in Sweden switched from driving on the left-hand side of the road to the right. I have spoken with friends who remember the day. At precisely mid day all vehicles switched lanes and started driving in the direction that had always been the wrong way. The confusion was abominable....for a while.
England never changed left hand driving and probably never will.
A few years ago mobile phones had different plugs and chargers, most of them today use the same system. That is good.
I was living in London when Britain changed from Guinness, Pounds, shillings and pence. On 15 February 1971, known as Decimal Day, the United Kingdom and Ireland decimalised their currencies. there were 20 shillings to a pound and 12 pence to a shilling .Sixpence was half a shilling , thrupence was half a sixpenny piece. The shilling changed to new pence. The Guinea mostly a traditional term disappeared , the new pound had 100 new pence, and everyone took the chance to raise their prices. I liked the old system, it had charm and character. By the way, I remember one subconsciously felt the shilling to be the standard, not the pound, the pound was a large sum. Obviously with the Pound becoming the standard , british currency became artificially the strongest. 
In 2002 , 13 years ago Spain changed from Pesetas to Euros, but spaniards still talk in millions of pesetas when they are serious about money. The US still uses yards feet and inches. Pounds and ounces, very old fashioned. I see even in this thread people convert to decimals for clarity. And so on and on and on....

There is a tendency to standardize 45mm track. That is in a way what Mylargescale.com is about. But there are as is exemplified in this thread , countless variations of track widths both in the prototype as in the model world. As to model scale it is just a matter of deciding on a number from 1 to 1000 and starting to build. You decide if you want to use a magnifying glass or a crane.

Vive la france vive la france vive la difference!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

World's Smallest Model Train Layout HD Reshoot:


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

trainstrainstrains said:


> As to model scale it is just a matter of deciding on a number from 1 to 1000 and starting to build. You decide if you want to use a magnifying glass or a crane.


You still don'y get it TTT. You don'y just pick a scale from 1 to 1000 unless you wish to build everything from rail spike up. Practically all railway modelling scales used are based on common model track gauges that are already in existence. Other scales which are not proportioned to prototypical gauge have evolved to fit in either aesthetically or to function with what is already available in the market place.
Gauge 1 has been around for donkey's years. Gauge 1 is a modeling gauge of 1-3/4" and is scaled at 1:32 for standard gauge. LGB made the gauge popular but being in Europe the gauge is rounded to the metrified equivalent 45mm gauge (1-3/4" = 44.45mm) and they run meter gauge prototypes therefore 1:22.5 scale.
Everything else stems from those 2 specifics. If you do your math you will realize that 1:13.7 scale is originally derived from 1-3/4" not 45mm yet 1:20.32 scale is derived from 45mm gauge even though the USA is not a metric country. 1:19 scale is derived from using 32mm gauge track for 2ft gauge prototypes. 1:19 scale on 45mm track is made for pure functional convenience with no prototypical relationship in any way.
The different scales which have been defined and used are all about model track.gauge already in existence, not some whim of scale selection.
There is a slight difference in Gauge 1 and 45mm gauge and without knowing the actual history of how things evolved it would not make sense to anyone.

Andrew


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew

I agree.

The bottom line is that we run on 45 mm gauge track. There are many scales that can run on that track. Depending on your choices you can run any prototype on that track. If you mix scales, they will not ever look prototypically correct when placed next to each other. 

As I have said in other threads, I collect and run three different scales, 1:20.3, 1:22.5/24, and 1:29. I bring them out and run them to please me. My choice is to bring out one scale and run it. It depends on what I feel like running. In most cases, I will not mix scale in a running session. The relative sizes, if two scales are different, it bothers my psychic, it just doesn't look correct. 

I like having one track to run different scales much more than having several layouts that are totally scale specific, with different gauges. In my mind, I would rather have one layout with several scales, than one scale with several layouts.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

To add to all that 1:24 was first used in the USA because it was close to 1:22.5 which was already popularized by LGB and it was also a traditional engineering model scale which are usually based on a simple fraction of the prototype modeled. It is a good scale 'size wise' being able to fit indoors but not accurate for 3ft gauge prototypes so now on the back burner except for those already committed to the scale. 
1:29 was chosen by Lewis Polk for the AristoCraft line of models. Also not a correct scale in proportion to the model track gauge but the larger models had more appeal or 'WOW factor' being about the same size as the LGB trains already in the market place. That scale was a marketing decision rather than any relationship to prototypical gauge and scale.
To sum up, the only accurate scale/gauge combinations are 1:32, 1:22.5, 1:20.32 and 1:13.7 on 45mm/Gauge 1 track.
1:24 (as 3ft narrow gauge), 1:29 (as standard gauge) and 1:19 (as 2ft narrow gauge) are all incorrect on 45mm/Gauge 1 track but they are all very popular and here to stay. 
Thing is though, you can do as you wish and there are enough model gauges around that there is usually one that is close to what is needed for a particular scale/gauge combination rather than reinventing the wheel and track each time.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I agree and understand you both, I also understand and appreciate everything written on this thread. It does surprize me a little that you do not see that what I say does not conflict in the least with what you say.

Of course if one chooses any scale at whim one must build from scratch. All train model scales were originally built from scratch by their creative inventors, and creative people are still building in new never used before scales. I set two examples of this a few hours ago on this thread. Scottychaos proudly announced himself as the creator of 29n2 scale. I like that.
Whether creative inventors decide to fit their new scale models to existing tracks or build new tracks to go with their new models is their priority, their choice.

That 45mm gauge is extremely useful and popular, that people choose to run trains of very similar scales on this very popular track by compromising the exact scale only in regards to the distance between the wheels is great. That setting a narrow gauge model on this track creates a different set of larger models of smaller prototypes is fun. That so many manufacturers choose to build their models to run on this particular track is also great. It is the only type of track I have. And possibly the only track I will ever have. The historical explanation for the existence of this and other popular gauges in different parts of the globe is important and interesting too. Thank you.

In fact everything that has been stated in this thread by the different contributors is interesting. I hope more interesting ideas will be expressed on the subject of scale.

Enjoy.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

trainstrainstrains said:


> I agree and understand you both, I also understand and appreciate everything written on this thread. It does surprize me a little that you do not see that what I say does not conflict in the least with what you say.
> 
> Of course if one chooses any scale at whim one must build from scratch. All train model scales were originally built from scratch by their creative inventors, and creative people are still building in new never used before scales. I set two examples of this a few hours ago on this thread. Scottychaos proudly announced himself as the creator of 29n2 scale.
> Enjoy.


No, scales don't come from scratch, they are all based on track gauges already used, model engineering scale tradition and marketing choices. No one invented anything regarding obvious mathematical relationships even though an individual may have been one of the first to model such a combination. No offence intended Scot! 

Andrew


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> No, scales don't come from scratch, they are all based on track gauges already used, model engineering scale tradition and marketing choices. No one invented anything regarding obvious mathematical relationships even though an individual may have been one of the first to model such a combination. No offence intended Scot!
> 
> Andrew


No offense taken..because I believe you are wrong! 

ttt and Garratt are both right, because they are talking about different things..
of course scales are "invented"..God didn't create them!  
they arent eternal since the beginning of the universe, 
some human was the first person to create every scale that exists..so in that sense, ttt is right.

I think Garratt was saying (and correct me if im wrong Andrew) that many scales arise because other scales existed before them..
"Gauge 1" being an obvious example in our case..
1/20.3 scale and 1/13.7 exist specifically because Gauge-1 existed first.
3-foot gauge and 2-foot gauge on 45mm track only exist because 45mm track existed first..
so those are "based on track gauges already used"..but not ALL scales are "based on track gauges already used"..
because some of them had to be invented, out of thin air, by some person..

HO scale is said to be "half-O"..but where did O come from?
N scale was probably created out of thin air..so was Z-scale, TT scale, and many others..
I dont think those are derived from anything else..so yeah, we have many examples of both methods of "scale creation"..
flat-out creation, and derivative creation.

As for me "inventing" 29n2 scale..well yeah, obviously I did. im not saying that to "brag" or anything, it's just a fact..
I didn't create 1/29 scale, and I didn't create 2-foot gauge modeling, but its almost certain I was the first to model 2-foot gauge in 1/29 scale..
and I created the name, 29n2 scale. In the 12 years since I first put it on line, there has never been any reference to anyone modeling it before me..
If I hadnt done it, probably someone else would have, eventually..I just happened to be the first.

Scot


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

And I hope to be the second, or the third or the 100th , it does not matter, its all good fun. I have most certainly learnt a lot from all of you.
I am considering using the motorblock and drivers of an American Flyer locomotive to kitbash a narrow gauge locomotive in 29n2 . and placing a third rail in the midsts of the 45mm track to accommodate.
Advice from the expert or the alleged inventor?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Garratt said:


> No, scales don't come from scratch, they are all based on track gauges already used, model engineering scale tradition and marketing choices. No one invented anything regarding obvious mathematical relationships even though an individual may have been one of the first to model such a combination. No offence intended Scot!
> 
> Andrew


Andrew,

I don't agree with you on this at all.
Maybe I don't understand what you aregetting at but all of the modeltrain gauges and scales were invented at some point in time.
T scale most recently in 2006 by KK Eishindo in Japan
Z scale in 1972 by Marklin in Germany
N scale in 1962by Arnold in Germany
TT in 1946 by H.P.Porducts in the US
H0 is one scale that evolved over many years with slightly different gauges until they settled on 16.5mm
1 gauge goes back to the late 1800's but the actual gauge then was a bit different than todays 45mm

I actually prefer to think of the gauge we use as "G" gauge as initially created by Lehmann, not "1" gauge because the wheel and track tolerances are much wider than with 1-gauge.

Knut


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Scot it is like saying that fractions are invented or the relationship between two things are invented which they are not. They are just mathematical relationships which exist on a already known universal basis and not dependent on any form of abstract conceptual creativity.
Traditional engineering model scales are based on a size which is a simple fraction of the prototype. 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. 1/16, 1/32. 1/3, 1/6, 1/12, 1/24, 1/48. 
One purely 'invented' scale is perhaps 1:29 because it relates to nothing except the maker's perception of the WOW factor along side other models. Everything else is derived from simple maths or something else that already exists.

30" inch gauge could be modeled on 32mm gauge track which is very close to 1:24 but I know of no one who does this although I do have in my possession a second hand cast 30" gauge fox bogie side frame which has a wheel base that works out to be 1:24 so somewhere, someone has been fiddling with this scale/gauge combination but it is no 'invention' just a relationship that is defined by existing factors.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

krs, I was referring to common Large Scale train scales. T scale was mentioned but it has nothing to do with Large Scale trains.
Yeah, it is 45mm gauge we commonly use. Thank LGB for that but to call it G gauge? Makes sense but incorrect apparently... 

Andrew


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

So because fractions are just "math", that means model railroad scales weren't really invented by anyone? Sorry, but no...sure 1/48 is just a ratio..but so what? We aren't talking about math, we are talking about actual physical model trains of plastic and metal..I get what you are saying, but what you are saying happens to be irrelevant.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> And I hope to be the second, or the third or the 100th , it does not matter, its all good fun.
> I have most certainly learnt a lot from all of you.
> I am considering using the motorblock and drivers of an American Flyer locomotive to kitbash a narrow gauge locomotive in 29n2 .
> and placing a third rail in the midsts of the 45mm track to accommodate.
> Advice from the expert or the alleged inventor?


excellent! glad to hear you want to try out some 29n2! 
"placing a third rail in the midsts of the 45mm track to accommodate." is a fine idea..
it was done in the USA with 3-foot gauge and standard gauge, and with other "dual gauge" interchanges around the world. 
here is some East Broad Top trackage, 3-foot with standard gauge:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2577/3742790871_561a4874d4_b.jpg



but! I dont believe there was ever any dual gauge 2-foot and standard gauge anywhere,
not that I have ever heard of..no photos have ever been seen online, its possible it didn't actually exist..

its well known that the Maine 2-footers never had any dual gauge track..there were several dual-gauge diamonds however!
which are very interesting..there was one at Wiscassett Maine where the WW&F crossed the Maine Central:










more photos:
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/maine2005.html

And two dual-gauge diamonds at Farmington, where the SR&RL also met the Maine Central.
but no dual-gauge track..but that doesnt mean you cant model it if you want to! 

Scot


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

> To sum up, the only accurate scale/gauge combinations are 1:32, 1:22.5, 1:20.32 and 1:13.7 on 45mm/Gauge 1 track.


That's not completely true. For example, 1:24 is accurate if you're modeling the South African Railways, New Zealand Railways, Japanese National Railways or (for a North American prototype) the Newfoundland Railway. 1:29 is correct for 4'3" gauge, which was an oddball industrial narrow gauge, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, there was at least one prototype example that I'm aware of. Are they correct for the prototypes being modeled (as in, geneneric US standard gauge in 1:29, or Colorado narrow gauge in 1:24)? No. But as an abstract scale/gauge combination, there were/are prototypes for which these scales would be correct on 45 mm track. Also, 1:48 would be a correct scale for Great Western broad gauge. 

Aristo's choice of 1:29 for a scale sounds completely arbitrary, but not only is it 10% larger than 1:32, it's also exactly 3 times the size of 1:87 (HO scale), which I suppose can be useful for scratchbuilders scaling up from HO plans.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Scot, I never mentioned other railway modeling scales. My discussion was entirely about the scales used in Large Scale railway modeling. The scales in Large Scale are derived from 1:32 scale on a track gauge of 1-3/4". 

Modeling scales are 'found' to be useful for a particular application. Often they are the mathematical result of something else like an already existing model track gauge or other scale therefore to say one 'invents' a scale is a deluded ego trip because in all likeliness someone has contemplated the ratio before.

Andrew


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll bite on this one.....

I am using 45mm gauge track as the constant in my modeling...have the following projects on my workbench in various states of progress:
1) 1:32 Standard gauge (Aster kit)
2) 1:13.7 Two foot prototype (SAR Lawley and K1 Garratt)
3) 3/4" scale (Talyllyn locomotive to 2'3" prototype gauge)

All live comfortably in my workshop and none of them get upset at the other....but it's enough to drive the scale/gauge debaters up the walls!

Happy modeling!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

It is true that in the universe nothing is created. It just changes form . Things can't be created from nothing . All creations as all inventions are based on already existing elements. But we humans use the expression " invent " to mean that an individual has put together a set of elements in a novel form which creates something new. 
I would say that even mathematics is a human invention , as are fractions and most certainly the concept of scales. Scales that is in the sense applied to modeling trains. 
Scale. The ratio of the length in a drawing (or model) to the length of the real thing. Example: in the drawing anything with the size of "1" would have a size of " 10".
I agree however with Andrew in the sense that the concept of scale has already been invented and applied to model trains and therefore no one is the inventor of a particular scale as Scot is not the creator of the 1/29 scale , but he is the creator of the 29n2 concept and the model trains made in this n scale for the first time. He is the inventor of the name and the new concept. The new concept being the manufacture of narrow gauge model trains that are not only 1/29th the size of the real thing but also run on track that is approximately 1/29th the size of the real 2 foot width track. Similarly all those who came up with new ideas in the model train world deserve the credit.
I praised and tried to find the inventor of something as banal as the Lake George and Boulder imaginary line name and researched its origin and was fascinated by the fact that it has the same initials as Lehmann Gross Bahn and that it perhaps originated not from somewhere on Colorado but lake George in NY State which has a bay named Boulder. Scot's invention is far more interesting and real and relevant than all that in comparison. 
Andrew at least in this debate, perhaps is (or was) primarily concerned and interested in the history , the origin and the reason for the existence of large scale, G scale, 45mm track, its variations and the reason why these variations came about. He expresses the point of view of the historian, of the purist and that is admirable and those of us who do not have this historical knowledge can learn. Scot perhaps is (or was) primarily concerned in this debate with innovation , with experimenting and discovering and that is also very cool.

My wife finds the whole subject of model trains totally boring. She has every right. The same applies to all inventions and innovations and historical facts. One can like or leave them. 

What I am about to write is probably the type of thing that annoys some people in this forum, members quite rightly like to stick to writing about facts and figures of their large scale modeling. I tend to irritate people by wandering off into different subjects and philosophising. I however do always deal with factual large scale model train subject matter. 

As a model train métaphore: The different track gauges are the languages and the trains in their various models and scales are the speakers.


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