# Modern boxcars & hoppers too new for FA-1's & F7"s?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I just bought some LGB 50' boxcars and hoppers from Nickolas Smith Trains.

LGB41930 LGB SF STEEL BOX CAR
LGB40820 LGB ATSF CENTER FLOW HOPPER 
http://www.nicholassmithtrains.com/store/



I will be pulling them with ATSF Blue Aristo FA/B-1's and LGB F7''s.

Can anyone tell me if the modern freight cars were ever run with FA/1's; F7's or for that matter with Mikados or were they introduced after those locos had been taken out of service?

While being "prototypical is not that important to me I still like to know when I am or am not running prototypical trains.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

well..there is no specific defination of "modern".. 

"modern steam" means steam locomotives generally built after 1925.. 
"Modern diesels" can mean 1975-2009, the last 10 years only..last week only..etc.. 
"modern" is a very fluid term!  

Personally, for locos and freight cars, I would consider "modern" to be 1980's through today.. 
I still consider a SD40-2 to be modern power..but not for much longer.. 

Taking a look at those particular two freight cars, they look to be about 1970's - 1990's vintage.. 
so yes, definately more "modern" than EMD F-units and Alco FA's.. 
which operated in the late 40's, through the 50's, 60's, and were mostly gone by the 70's.. 
(a few EMD F-units persisted into the mid to late 1970's, but they were rare.. the Alco FA's mostly died out in the 60's) 
by the early 80's, the era of the first generation cab unit was definately over.. 

so in a a general sense, yes, I would say those freight cars are "too modern" for the locomotives.. 
but not radically so.. 
something like double-stacks would *obviously* be too modern.. 
but the box car and hopper car can reasonably overlap IMO..but barely.. 
those freight cars were coming in as the those locomotives were going out.. 
some overlap is not unreasonable...unlikely, not common..but not impossible. 

In general, if you want to be prototypically accurate with 1940's and 50's steam and diesels ("late steam" and "early diesels") 
then you should stick with 40 foot boxcars, with roofwalks: 
http://www.udisco.com/hobbies/pics/046064.jpg 
and 2-bay or 3-bay coal hoppers..but not more modern covered hoppers.. 

of course, you can always adopt the "who cares" attitude and just run whatever you like!  
thats always a fun way to go.. 

Scot


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

No Jerry, i think these are too modern to run with FA-s and mikados but as i always say...*runun ummmm if you got ummmmm







*


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

I would second Scott's opinion ... the FA's and F7's were pushed from most mainline freight assignment during the 60s. On the other hand, 40 foot boxcars were generalloy not built new after the mid 50s so the earliest 50 footers were fairly common in the 60s as the diesels you mentioned were being obsoleted. Most telling is the absebce or inclusion of a few specific details. During the 70s those roofwalks vanished and end ladders were shortened, brakewheels lowered. Also for a specific time period (somebody who models this era can help with specifics) every car carried an ACI or COTS label ... 

As for the Mikes, they were designed pre super power steam and the vast majority built pre 1925. They vanished from front line freight service on most roads post WW II totally supplanted by super power steam which in turn gave way to diesels during the 50s. I think Mikes in mainline freight service on Class I's were decidely rare after 1955 (excepting in parts of Canada such as Northern Ontario on the CN). This predates the 50 foot boxcars you asked about.

As for hoppers, the USRA standard 50 T design was circa 1917 and a 70 T design emerged in the 30s. USAT's 70 T hopper is not at all modern in my eyes though they were long lived on the prototype despite rough handling. The 100T design represented by Aristo's car is much more modern and really needed roller bearing trucks, plus heavier rail and especially heavier bridges to take the increased axle loading.

Regards ... Doug


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Scot, Nick and Doug,

Thank you for your comments. They pretty much confirm what I suspected.

I had just about decided against buying the cars because I thought they would be too modern for the FA-1's and F7's (I probably would not run them with Mikados but was curious).

What changed my mind and caused me to go ahead and buy them was the length of the AB - ABA and ABBA's which to me looks like way too much power for the pretty short trains I run. On a cost per foot basis (especially considering the reduced number of metal wheel sets needed - per train foot - with longer cars) these cars were a real bargain for me. 

I would have preferred the regular LGB steel boxcars and reefers as I currently run with the Mikados but these ATSF 50' boxcars and covered hoppers (especially because of the prices) seemed the perfect way for me to make up freight trains for my ATSF locos since I did not have any ATSF rolling stock for them.

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it,

Jerry


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

I did a bit of checking in some reference docs re the practices on Canadian National.

The FAs and F7s (along with most other early units like RS3s and 10s) were withdrawn from mainline freight service in 1968. CN took steps to standardize their mainline freight loco pool to reduce the costs of carrying spare parts and making maintenance easier.

ACI labels were introduced in the mid 70s and were a failure. They were replaced with the COTS labels beginning in 1979. The conversion to new roofwalks began on CN in 1972 and was completed by 1975. During this time period virtually all of the remaining 40 foot boxcars were retired from active service either scrapped or demoted to MOW. This completed a program of eliminating the smaller older cars of 50T capacity that was begun in the early 1960s. 

Even so, a large number of steel underframed but wooden single sheathed cars were retained for grain service with some lasting into the early 1980s. This anomoly was due to the "Crow rates" which established in the late 19th/early 20th century a low rate for grain movements in perpetuity in exchange for giving the railways land grants. The Crow rates were finally abolished and replaced by regulated rates in the 1970s and 1980s ... but the railroads typically used their oldest and worst equipment in this service. The single sheathed cars were scrapped with the arrival of the Trudeau hoppers (Canadian Wheat Board cylindrical covered hoppers built by marine Industries and Hawker Siddeley) beginning in 1975.

In terms of steam, Mikes were mainly assigned to the Northern Ontario District where they formed the backbone of the freight motive power pool from the 1920s on. They lasted until the end of steam on the District though they were reduced in their role gradually starting in 1953 and were gone completely from regular service by 1958. Mikes served CN in most other Districts across the country but were generally used in wayfreight, extra or helper service. CN had the largest fleet of Northerns of any North American railroad and these super power steam locos were the first choice for mainline freight post world war II until steam ended everywhere in 1958-59.

The earliest diesels (not counting the experimental CN passenger units in the 1920s) for mainline work did not arrive until after the war and steam reigned supreme until the early 1950s. Alco RS units and EMD GPs plus F7s slolwy encroached on steams dominance after 1953 and by 1958-59 steam was gone. These same diesels were retired from mainline freight service in the big equipment modernization on CN in 1968.

Tech change on the railroads was surprisingly rapid. In tandem, the move to MU'ed diesels manned by a single crew, the introduction of roller bearings on all freight cars, the enlargement of freight cars in both length and plate sizing, modernization of signal systems and the move to heavier bridges and heavier continuously welded rail all meant huge reductions in the railroad's workforce. For modellers, these changes marked specific time periods and are signature markers of the era being modelled.

Regards ... Doug


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Doug,

Once again thanks for your helpful and detailed assistance.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

Jerry, 

I see your idea of longer cars "costing less per foot of train." And with that in mind you might want to consider USA trians 50 foot box car and mechanical reefer--they would be newer cars in the late 60's and very early 70's and would be appropriate with the F and FA units you have. Another thought is if you model a short line--most used older motive power with newer cars, as the class I railroads sold off the older power. 

Like they say--there is a prototype for everything if you look hard enough. 

Matt


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dr G on 22 Jul 2009 07:00 PM 
Jerry, 

I see your idea of longer cars "costing less per foot of train." And with that in mind you might want to consider USA trians 50 foot box car and mechanical reefer--they would be newer cars in the late 60's and very early 70's and would be appropriate with the F and FA units you have. Another thought is if you model a short line--most used older motive power with newer cars, as the class I railroads sold off the older power. 

Like they say--there is a prototype for everything if you look hard enough. 

Matt 
Hi Matt,

Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it.

Regards,

Jerry


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, As Mark said the smaller shortlines used what they could get. I tried to attach some photos but failed so I'm typing a short reply. The NEw York & Lake Erie has a pair of FPA's they use for passenger service mostly but they have been seen coupled to some modern freight cars from time to time. 

Chas


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The "WAG" was famous for running EMD F-units up until 1979..in general shortline service. 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-w/wag2300bdc.jpg 


Many Conrail predecessors, LV, EL, PC, ran F-units right up to 1976.. 
Conrail retired them almost immediately though..I dont think Conrail ran an F-unit after 1977.. 

and probably the ultimate "F-unit survivors" in freight service were the Erie mining units.. 
which hauled freight until 2001! 
of course, they only hauled hopper cars: 
http://duluthsuperior.railfan.net/erie_mining.htm 
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=274509 

and the ULTIMATE ultimate F-unit survivors are the EMD FL9's of the New Haven.. 
a few of which are STILL hauling commuter trains today! 
50 years of continuous service.. 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewpho...62&nseq=19 

These are the last F's still in "regular" service..not museum or "tourist train" service.. 

Scot


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Scot, 

I've got the WAG book and there are shots in there as well as the website showing the WAG F7's pulling older wood sided cars too. The reason for my future LGB F7 repaints. unfortunately nothing as modern as some of the cars Jerry is looking at or owns BUT...It's something. 

Chas


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## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

Jerry, 

Check out the Maryland Midland. 

Here is a shot from 1991 with modern cars in tow. There are a few other short lines (one in AK if I'm not mistaken) that ran F7's right up to the mid 1990's 

MM F unit 1991 

Like they say: "there's a prototype for everything" 

Regards, 

Matt


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I think the answer here also depends on what your "railroad" is. I have a railroad which is a small "poor cousin subsidiary" of BNSF. This means that I have a variety of older engines and a wide array of freight cars, determined by whatever comes into my little railroad from the "outside". With this kind of philosophy I can mix and match a lot of cars/engines that normally you might not see. This way, I can rationalize any combination of cars and engines that I want to run!

Works for me, anyway!!!

Ed


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Thanks Chas, Scot, Matt and Ed,

I finally got metal wheels, added storage track to move other rolling stock to and got tn new boxcars and hoppers onto the main line.

The pictures I had seen of the 50' boxcars made them look possibly too long for the F7's but once I got the trains put together they look great together.

Normally I tend to model the last of the steam era and beginning of the diesel era but ultimately some things just look right while others don/t (to me) and it has little to do with prototypical reality yet I like it a bit better when something I like also turns out to be somewhat prototypical.

My absolutely favorite diesels are the LGB F7 in a ABA or ABBA set. With LGB sound coming from all 3 or 4 units the locos are fantastic but my poor ATSF F7's have never had their own train to pull (I could never find cheap enough prices to afford making an ATSF train for them (until now). An ABA or ABBA set simply begs for a long train to look at all right.

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.

Jerry


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