# Are grade or long loads bad for engine life?



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

As I'm working on the 50th design for my layout and now have a decent collection of locomotives and rolling stock I have a few questions about damaging motors.

I've noticed a lot of people run very short trains (less than 10 cars) and few run very long (more than 30). 

I've also learned that even with three brand new SD45's that they each run maybe a few % different in speed.


My layout changes less than 1% grade except for one branch that I'm hoping to make that goes over a waterfall of an already existing pond, roughly 3' 6" higher than the rest of the layout. I'm not exactly sure what route the train will take up yet but it's likely to be between 4% and 7%. I know this is more than the 2%-3% that most people put a limit at so I'm wondering what some of the more experienced folks around here have experienced with steep grades and pulling long loads as I'm guessing these two things should be somewhat related. Also how suicidal would it be to run 3-4 SD-45's pulling a 40-50 car load up as much as a 6% grade? Will the engines last 20% of their normal motor life, pull too many amps and damage my bridgeworks 15A? Or what exactly happens when you put too much load on an engine?


Thanks.


----------



## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon, there's a lot of variables that affect engine life. In 25 plus years, I have yet to replace a motor block, but at the Children's Hospital where the engines are run continuously for more than 12 hours a day, motor blocks last only a few months, regardless of manufacturer.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My experience suggests that load, has an effect on engine life and performance. For many years I added weight to my LGB moguls and I kept replacing the idler gears in their drive train. Since I stopped pulling longer trains and having extra weight in the engine, I haven't needed to replace any gears.

I recently blew out the drive rods on an Aristo Mikado. When I get a chance I'll call Aristo and talk to Navin about what options I have to repair it. I regularly pulled 10 to 12 cars with this engine. My maximum grade is on the order of 1%.

My biggest problem seems to be with my LGB Sumpter Valley Mallet. A year or so ago I had to replace the idler gears on both motor blocks. A couple of weeks ago pulling 11 cars the replacement gears blew out. This is an engine that should pull 12 cars.


There is a reason the 1:1 use more than one engine. When in doubt we should also add engines to a train. Over 30 years of experience in this outdoor version of the hobby, if the wheels on your engine are slipping back off. Either remove several cars, or add another engine.

The bottom line is that steep grades and/or long trains will have an effect on the life of your engines. 


Chuck


----------



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Brandon, 

It was pointed out to me many years ago that mismatched speeds are only an issue of a train doesn't need the locomotives for power. When the rear locomotive cannot pull the train, it slows down and begins to load the next one in line, and so on. Personally, I wouldn't worry about a slight mismatch, as it would be no more of a load on the engine than a heavy train being pulled or pushed. 

As for wear, I think your primary issue will be bearings. The only way I can see you damaging an electric motor is by overloading it to the point that it overheats. Some people weight their locomotives to the point that they can no longer slip their wheels, at which point there is a real risk of overheating due to a stalled rotor. As long as the wheels will spin before the motor stalls, you should never have an issue there. 

I would assume that your 15A power supply has some sort of circuit breaker on it. If not, IT SHOULD! No matter how many over-weighted locomotives you have pulling trains too heavy for them, you shouldn't damage the power supply since it should automatically shut down when the current reaches the safe limit. 

The reason most people restrict the grades has little to do with locomotive life. It has more to do with the fact that an engine which can pull 50 cars on level track might only pull 5 up the grades you are considering. I would strongly advise you to try to keep the grades down, especially since it seems you are wanting to model modern main line equipment (where steep grades might look odd). I think you will be unhappy with the layout if you put a grade that steep into anything more than a branch line. Of course, it can be done, and it has, but I suggest that there are good reasons for following the de-facto standards that model railroaders have established over the years. Buck the trend at your own risk.


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Whew! 4% is mighty steep. Unless you're using a logging engine with 1 or 2 cars, you'll want to rethink that plan. 

Running your locos together won't bother them a bit. Since they're mainly "torque" engines, they'll match each others speed while coupled quite handily. Could be harder if they were widely different locos, like a Pacific and your SD 45. 

Running trains 10 hours a day in all sorts of strange conditions at the Botanic, we wear EVERYTHING out. They seem to like USAT and Aristo best, but those wear out too. I've seen cars where the axle has worn clear out of the journal and the flanges have worn slots into the bottom of the car. If some MFR wants to know how well it holds up, let *us* torment it for a season. 

To make them last longer, we tend to run short trains. Like 3 or 4 heavyweights or 6 or 8 freight cars. Of course, I like Madam Mallet to have a longer train, just 'cause I'm vain.


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for all this info, I can't tell you how much this is clearing things up. I was just about to order weights for the SD-45's and a couple -9's I have but maybe I'll hold off. I'd take wheel slip over overheating any day since wheel slip is easy to spot and overheating isn't. 

It sounds like the waterfall branch slop may not be doable unless maybe I make an elevated loop with a steep access to get the train up but not run up and down it constantly? And then I can keep that train shorter. I know one access to the waterfall I can get to about 2% but the other is space limited. Is there any downside if I can't work out an upper loop to having a train go up 2% grade and come down a 5%? How likely is an engine to 'run away' or can 'engine breaking' cause problems?


----------



## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

"engine breaking" can definitely cause problems - it's never good to have your engines break! Now engine braking, on the other hand.... the only problem I've heard of there is with drives which have a lot of slop, they can tend to surge coming down a steep hill. I haven't heard of this with the Aristo and USAT engines, though. I'm sure somebody will comment if they have had the problem. 

Go ahead and get more weight, just make sure that you cannot stall the motor. Set it on the track and check that at full power the wheels spin. If you can make the wheels stop turning, you have too much weight. 

I would not worry about running up your waterfall loop constantly, provided you have your engines weighted as above. On the 1:1 RR, we have short time ratings that limit how long we can operate at given loads, but that is because the engines are heavy enough to stall the traction motors and burn up windings. Letting the wheels slip is a rudimentary safety valve that will prevent the motor ever getting to the point of overheating, as as long as you don't overheat, you can keep running indefinitely. I seriously doubt you will be able to burn out a motor if you do not add too much weight.


----------



## todd55whit (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon 
As far as train length is concerned I think you will find most of us don't have the room to run 30 + car trains. That's not to say we wouldn't, we just don't have the room. There is a small percentage that do run trains of this length, Marty Cozad comes to mind. Having a few sd45's I can see where you might want to run more than ten or so cars. 

The waterfall sounds like a nice feature. However I think going over 2-3% might be an issue. My first layout many years ago had a similar situation that you described. I had a large loop that had a low side of about 1% and a high side of 4%. In short it didn't work well. I have found that the lower you keep the % of the grade the more enjoyment you will have. This means less time fixing more time running. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

My layout has a 2% upgrade, and about a 4% down. I've had to rework the downgrade a couple times because surging and derails were a problem. The big thing in my mind is the steeper your grades, the broader any curves need to be. A curve on an upgrade will add serious drag. A sharpish curve on a steep down is asking for stuff on the ground - even with superelevation.
For what you're thinking, I'd suggest ball bearing wheelsets on all the cars and maybe a helper instead of all the power on the head end.... and checking the gearboxes regularly.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

On my old layout I had 4% grades. Most trains were very limited do to that. Some engines were better than others. Some had no problem pulling 5 cars over the hump, some could barely pull themselves over. Only one a Keystone/Buddy L actually stopped and just spun its wheels. New layout is dead flat so no issues now. Even the crapzilla Buddy L works.


----------



## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon.....It sounds like space may be a little issue or else you would not have 4% grades. And that probably means curves. Coming down steep curving railroads is probably harder than going up. You will not enjoy it. If you are trying to run long trains it will be a nightmare to keep on the track unless everything is perfect. Grades and curves magnify things. 

You mentioned your *50th design. *My recommendation is to make something very simple even if it's just a basic loop and get trains running and get some first hand experience. You can read all you want but experience is a terrific teacher. Besides that you will have much more pleasure running a simple train than reading about a complex design. 

*JUST DO IT! *

*Tom *


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I bought two full loops of 8' and 10' curves to test for issues with those diameters and about 120' of straight in 5' lengths just to 'play' around with and test things over the fall/winter/spring before I begin to lay track outside. In my basement I have most of the track setup with all sorts of S curve to test for issues mentioned on the forums and it's helping me realize that I should get the loco's running on 8' fine and then build the track to 10'-12' diameters to be safer. I haven't set up any slopes to test with yet but I hope to soon after I know what things to look for (which you guys are completely helping out with in this thread!) 

My layout will be mostly straight runs of 30'-80' straight or nearly straight runs and quarter curves before the next straight. The layout will hopefully run in a U shape along the fence in the back yard so about 50'->100'->50' for the U shape. I'm trying for 3 mainlines, 2 which are near completely flat on the ground and a third that went over the waterfall. None of the elevation changes would be during curves either if they were highly sloped. The only reason for any elevation change is the waterfall that is in the center of the back of the yard that's 3'6" tall, so 50' of straight track on either side before a quarter curve. If I put a quarter curve in the track half day down elevation changes to the waterfall the slope would be cut in half but I wanted to avoid that (and the wife is wanting me to do more of an L shape layout and I could possibly loose the ability to extend the grade into that other U section and this is kind of where I'm at. Do I go for the waterfall and do a huge slope straight slope to appease the wife, fight for the U over the L shape to get the grade needed to cut the slope down to almost half, or not run a train over the waterfall. Unfortunately the wife isn't into trains or willing to give up easily on that section of the yard.  I even bought her an ABA FA1 set and 12 passenger cars that she could pick the paint colors and designs (even purple and pink flowers if she wanted as she's into that type of decorating) and she wasn't interested.


----------



## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

I have several 4+ % grades on the MM&G to contend with, but have never tried pulling 50+ cars up them. I normally run two SD45 engines and can easily pull 25 cars. It would be interesting to put 3 on the lead and have a single helper at the end or mid way back. 

As other have mentioned, you need to take your curves into account. They will put an additional load if it's part of the 4% grade, especially if it's a tight one. I personally would not worry about overloading the motor, but be more worried about making an emergency stop coming down the grade with 50 cars pushing. You might tear up a gear box doing that. I'm currently using the Revolution system, with a 60% momentum factor. So they start up nice and slow and slow down the same. It probably takes them a good 15-20 feet to come to a full stop. That's the way to handle 50+ cars, in my view. 

Mark

*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/*


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Set up those grades in your basement and see what you think. You will see how many cars you can pull up it and see it that satisfies you or not.


----------



## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I think Jerry has given you some excellent advice. (all the other advice was good also). Set up your 4% grade in the basement and see how you like it. I have 3% grades on my railroad and if I ever redo it, I'll keep it down to 1% or less. It just addes extra problems that I'd rather do without. If I was doing only narrow gauge short trains I might be happy. 
Bob


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Much over 2% and you will definitely get accelerated wear on any loco. Run more locos/or and shorter trains. 

As a calibration, my strongest pullers are 3 Aristo E8's with 6 pounds of extra weight each. 

I have along 3.4% grade. 45 cars will go with no wheelslip, 50 cars produces wheelslip. The locos will pull about 2.7 amps each. 

To your questions: 

1. slight differences in speed of identical locos will even out under load, do not worry. Locos of significantly different gearing/speed will suffer. 
2. Yes, limit yourself to 3%, and keep working on a solution, possibly you only run in one direction if you want to run trains over 10 cars. I have a 5% downgrade in one direction, because of my elevation difference. This works for me. 
3. Is it suicidal to have 3 SD45's pull 60 cars up a 6% grade? No, I doubt that you can do it... My 3 E8's will barely do 50 cars up my 3.4%, but it has a couple of curves. 
4. Will the engines last 20% of their normal life? Hard to tell, but they will wear out sooner if you run them at their limit all the time. 
5. Nothing will damage your Bridgewerks, it is very well built. More likely a failure in a loco will let all those 15 amps melt out the insides of a loco. 
6. What happens when you put too much load on an engine? Well physical wear, in the Aristo it will be the gears in the gearboxes, and overloading of the motors will cause the brushes to wear out faster and can in some cases cause the motor windings to overheat and short... not real typical in an SD45. 

Comments on other comments: 

Bearings won't be your problem, the Aristo block is all ball bearing, except the motors... the brushes and windings will give out before the motor bearings. 

(assuming you lube them once in a while) 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I can't thank you all enough for this information. I spent a couple hours last night walking around the yard and it is almost like the more constraints I find are needed for a garden railway, the more ideas I get on how it can be done and I keep liking it more and more. I keep hoping I could get my larger trains up above the waterfall but I think I need to realize that it may not be possible but I think I can do a completely level upper loop with about 150' of track if I can get by with one curve that's 5'-7' and the remaining 10' which I realize would likely mean no SD-45's up there but I have about a dozen FA-1's that would probably work fine on that loop. 

Again thanks for all the information, I don't know how I could possibly create a garden railway that was usable without everyone here and all your experience. I'll continue testing elevations and various potential issues for 8-10 months before I begin to lay track but I really appreciate all your comments on where I could run into problems. 

Brandon


----------



## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

With my USA GP-9 (battery, rcs) I maxed out (wheel slip at 32 cars, stalled at 33) at 32 cars up a 4% grade in the rain. Wouldn't do it all the time, but wanted to see what the maximum I could handle. That was without traction tires (I replaced my wheels with NWSL wheels). Another thing to think about is how 50 car trains would look on your layout. Say 2' per car x50= 100' + power takes up say ~110' of mainline just to hold your train. Food for thought 
Craig


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing that you could do with your branch line over the water fall is to make it a cog railway. LGB made an cog engines, one electric box cab and the other a steamer. These are based on NG engines in Switzerland. They both work very well and they will handle steeper grades than the ones you are talking about. They are smallish engines they are designed for shorter trains. The box cab electric would look OK with an American cars, but I'm not too sure about the steamer.

I would imagine that some of the larger mail order dealers might still have them in stock along with the cog strips for the track.

Chuck


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Something to consider when talking loading of anything, is the tolerances the machine is built to. 

First, most if not all of the gearboxes in G gauge locomotives are mass produced. 

So just like a cars engine that comes in the stock vehicle you drove home from the dealer today, the gearbox and drive train has a window of acceptable tolerances. 

You want the motor in your car or truck to perform better? You have the motor blue printed. Blue printing means the motor is taken apart and re-assembled using the closest tolerances possible to create maximum power. 

Well, the same is true with a gearbox. A gear box assembled to the closest tolerance will stand more loading than others. 

We see this all the time when two engine bought at the same time and used the same don't last the same length of time before braking. 

Now, the car or truck uses a metal motor and gear box so flexing is minimal. 

With our trains, the gear boxes are plastic. Take a Dash 9 with 50 cars in tow. It will easily pull the load. But how much flexing in the gearboxes is going on? 

Just my 2 cents


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Brandon this forum is a great place for advice and ideas. 
Here is a bit more. Keep those grades down as low as you can. If there is a way to bypass the upper heights to avoid the tall grade then do it. I had a 4-5% grade up a mountain that included a curved tunnel built around a 4' diameter 1/2 curve and as my trains got bigger and longer they did not like going that route. Luckily I was able to run a bypass track. Every once in a while I will run a short train up the mountain but this is rare. Also watch out for too long a run with straight track. I have a long straight run down the back of my RR about 90 feet long which has a reverse curve in the middle of it to get around some trees and to break up the monotemy that I think a long straight run can bring. Some of my favorite scenes on my RR is when the train comes around a corner and into view. Of course a long straight run can be broken up by plantings and a bridge or 2 if you so choose. 
If you set up test track in the basement you should get a angle indicator. It is a dial used in construction available at hadware stores that will quickly tell you what grade you are looking at. Otherwise there is a formula to follow which I cannot remember, maybe someone else will chime in with it. . Don't spend too much time in the basement though. I am all for getting out and laying some track. You will not know what may work until you get it down. Your plans will change as time goes on. 
good luck 
Todd


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By cape cod Todd on 02 Sep 2011 09:27 PM 
. Otherwise there is a formula to follow which I cannot remember, maybe someone else will chime in with it. . 
Todd 
Rise/run? not much of a "formula"...... at it's simplest, a 4" rise in 100" of run (track length) is 4/100=.04, aka 4 percent. Working backwards, if you need to gain 8" in elevation (rise) then you'd need at least 200" (or about 17 feet) of run to keep things at less than 4%.. 

4% is that famously challenging grade out of Chama on the old Rio Grande NG. The grade of the Pennsy's Horseshoe Curve outside Altoona is 91 feet/mile or 3.5%- pretty steep for a class 1 main.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I just run my trains. Long ones Short ones. Up hill down Hill. Fast Slow. I lube them when necessary. If they break and I can't fix them They become Parts Pigs. I enjoy them to the max.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm wondering if you can't rework the waterfall so that instead of going over you go behind some falling water at a lower elevation. Your Lady of the Mist will still draw attention to the falls and you won't have as many things that can go wrong,ie; steep grades and hot motors. 

John


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 03 Sep 2011 08:25 AM 
I'm wondering if you can't rework the waterfall so that instead of going over you go behind some falling water at a lower elevation. Your Lady of the Mist will still draw attention to the falls and you won't have as many things that can go wrong,ie; steep grades and hot motors. 

John I had the same thought but the waterfall also acts as a retaining wall so it's not possible to have the train go under the falls come out the right side without doing about 50' of tunneling. ... I'll try to get some pictures to show my yard. Basically there's a rock retaining wall on the left side of the waterfall that slops down about 2' over 50'. The right side of the waterfall stays at the 3' height for 50' and there's an elevated patio in the back corner of the yard that also acts as a retaining wall. ... I better get some pictures, they're worth a thousand words right?


----------



## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

a 150 foot loop and running 50-car trains? 
how long are these cars? 

if they are a foot and a half, you got half of your track occupied by the train. 
if the cars are longer, the engineer can see the pics in the playboy, the brakeman in the caboose is reading...


----------



## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 03 Sep 2011 10:11 AM 
a 150 foot loop and running 50-car trains? 
how long are these cars? 

if they are a foot and a half, you got half of your track occupied by the train. 
if the cars are longer, the engineer can see the pics in the playboy, the brakeman in the caboose is reading... 
Now that a good one Kormsen.. had to laf that your brakeman was reading a playboy... 

But, it true on long trains.. Nice, but not that much to watch on our layout due to train get hidden most of the time.. 

Ours is not small layout, but we sure like to run more than one train on our signal track at a time. So we run shorter train of around 10 cars or so.. 
Gives you a break looking for the next train and saves running drive gears.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, 40' box cars are almost exactly 18" car to car... so 50 cars should be 75' long... 

Greg


----------



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The 2 lower main lines would be about 300-400 feet line (no final design yet) and the upper track would be about 150 of track but that line would only be running less than 15 cars.


----------

