# Initial bracing for ladder back support?



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Quick question for those of you who do "ladder back" construction for your train work....any good tips on how to support the ladder back and assure that the curves or half circles are true? I built one section, made a jig on some old OSB and assembled the curve for an R-3 or eight for diameter half circle. To make a long story short, the idea worked fine on the ground, but when I removed the PVC plastic side rails (3/4"x1-3/4") with the spacers at 4-1/4" on center to place it on the work site, it "grew" to 8'-8" and didn't work with my sectional track. Obviously, it took a lot of time to assemble and taking it all apart wasn't an option at this stage. I am building the second half of the circle and decided to only connect the spacers to one of the two side rails. Held the entire mess together with clamps and I'm now bending it to the same diameter.

Problem is keeping this mess level at two feet off the ground and trying to make the bend equal at all points. I've seen a lot of posts of ladder back and was wondering if someone found a quick method of building a jig, or some sort of template to keep it all in line?

Thanks for any thoughts and suggestions, Ed


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ed, can you post a pic or two of your method?


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Yes, I need to get the camera downloaded to the computer. Probably do it in the morning since my wife (head conductor) has some things for me to do this evening...Ha.


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Alright, lets try this again. I hate how I have to add my user ID multiple times before I can post and add attachments...for some reason it doesn't like to remember me once I've logged in. Anyway, I have included three photos. The one painted and in place had both rails secured to the spacer blocks and lifted into place. It was built on a concrete patio deck to keep everything level. I tried to match the profile of the pre-bent sectional track. The second leg, white in color, is the section with only the inside rail secured. It also has the clamps holding the second rail in place. Trying to match the other side is becoming a challenge. Any tips or tricks would be helpful


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

An occasional solid piece filling the space between the cross pieces might give it more rigidity and keep the radius from changing.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ed, I'm speaking as one who hasn't done this ladder method, so take all this with several grains of salt.

Radius chain. If you can plot out your center point accurately, and if it's a true circle, a chain from a sturdy pipe or post can be a simple way to check things, as you gradually stake & tie the ladder into position. 

Curvature jig. And arc of plywood, maybe 1 or 2" wider than the ladder, with finish nails driven outboard of the ladder. Marching this along your ladder (with a level) could help you true it up, while placing temp braces / wires / stakes along the way.

Chordal tension braces. While flat on the jig, multiple cross-strings or wires, as chords across the arc and at several locations, might hold the "bow" against its desire to straighten back out. Threading through obstacles would require gradual removal & replacement, so marking the attachment points & lengths would be important. 

Cliff


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks for some of the suggestions. I ended up taking the one section down, put it on top of the one already built and clamped them together...then I added the screws to secure the two rails together. It is very close to being the same diameter. I am working on the vertical supports today and hope to have something that might actually run on this elevated section next week. I can always use my dual rail track bender, but I was trying to use a lot of the sectional track I have without that step. I suspect that this will all get a lot more complex as I experiment and go along. Ed


----------



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Looks like you are using the same stuff I did and I had the exact same problem. Except instead of doing the lateral piece like you did, I just cut 2 pieces about 2" and pvc glued them together. Thus my cross section was a long leg, 2 spacers and the other long leg. I glued and screwed all sides then I ran string across like bicycle spokes to keep it in place while I ran the poles supporting it into the ground. Finally after was all set, cut off the string. Mine was a bit simpler as mine was just a big circle around a tree with an straight enter and exit section. But yes it was much more work than I expected. That memory spring was a pain.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used plastic pipe every two feet. Drilled a hole 24" deep, put pipe in, back filled, and pack as I back filled. Been out there about six years still the radius I started with. 

Don


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Trains said:


> I used plastic pipe every two feet. Drilled a hole 24" deep, put pipe in, back filled, and pack as I back filled. Been out there about six years still the radius I started with.
> 
> Don


No problems with frost heave on the pipes in the ground?
I would like to try this method, but frost heave is my major concern..

thanks,
Scot


----------



## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

I think if I had some of the moisture in the soil that Scot does in New York, it would make the hole digging a bit easier. This dry clay and rock mixture in Glendale, AZ makes the need for concrete to support the vertical uprights a must. I do see some of the same work being done (adjustable clamps and spacers). I do like Mickey's idea of using a center spike and string to keep the bends at the right radius. Not sure that you can tell from the pictures, but another issue I had was that the area crosses a landscape area covered in river rock, about six to eight inches deep, a real pain to dig a hole into without a lot of moving of rock first. I have just about finished the first large loop that is elevated, so the next steps should be less time consuming.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,

I have a little, but it the spring the pipes push right back into the ground. Not a big problem.
It seems like I have more on the east side then the west side of the layout.

Don


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Trains said:


> Scot,
> 
> I have a little, but it the spring the pipes push right back into the ground. Not a big problem.
> It seems like I have more on the east side then the west side of the layout.
> ...


interesting, thanks..
I should have done more post experimentation these last few winters while my railroad was on hold!  but I didnt..

I have had a few things in the ground..rocks, and some small posts. it seems very localized, as in one area might be succesptable to frost heave, while 10 feet away its fine..

but I defiantly have a high frost heave potential..
virtually solid clay soil..very moist all winter, and the entire months of November and March are above freezing during the day and below freezing at night..

I'll just have to wing it and see..im planning to get at least one oval of track built this season, I will probably try the posts and see how it looks next spring, then make the decision for the remainder of the railroad from there..

thanks,
Scot


----------

