# USA Trains Center-Flow hoppers curve radius?



## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Everyone,
I bought 2 used USA Trains C-F hoppers recently. The cars are fully-equipped with body mount Kadee couplers (with the long rectangular draft gear). 

Unfortunately, I'm having a bit of trouble with them binding on my 10ft diameter curves. What is the intended turning radius of these hopper cars? USAT doesn't seem to mention anything on their web site. Are there any modifications I can make to help them loosen up a bit going around my existing curves? 

Thanks in advance for any help!
Jeff


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi Jeff 
Where is the binding you are talking about, the couplers or the wheels i have run some on 8ft. dia. track.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Jeff, Yes, I have dealt with the problem you have.


The example car is shown on 8 foot diameter curve track in the below picture.










Whilst operation on 8 foot diameter curves is tolerable to a limited extent when trimming the Kadee box, the USAT 4 bay hopper car is best operated on 10 foot or greater diameter track.










I, have, also, found that the emulated uncoupling rods may interfere with the wheel flanges when the Car is entering and leaving to / from a straight track to a curve track. I left the rod as is since the wheel flange will find its way past the rod's interfering corner during typical operation. However, if the car were to be operated on a long, continuous curve section (somewhere between 10 and 20 foot? diameter), the rod should be modified. Bending the rod should be done with caution as it is hardened metal and prone to cracking - particularly at the factory bent areas.

As to the coupler box,
Try to operate this car on the smaller diameter track ( 8 foot results shown below), its wheels will rub on the side of the Kadee 830 box as can be seen by the swirl marks in the below picture. Areas include the side of the box where the mounting screws are as well as near the front where the wheel flange cuts can be seen (below pictures).



















By pushing the car down and back and forth on an 8 foot diameter curve (or whatever track diameter you have the issue with), telltale marks will appear on the wheels' backsides and 830 box. Turn the car around and do the same thing so both sides are exercised. You can file away some material from the Kadee 830 box where the marks are to help ease the situation. Note that the side mount screws areas of the box are obvious points of contact, but also the wheel's sharp flange edge will leave a slice mark closer to the front of the box that may not be as obvious.

See the entire article I wrote - title below:
*USA Trains Golden West Service 4 Bay Hopper Car & Kadee 830s *

Let us know if this is of help; Thank you,


-Ted


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I've installed #789s for folks.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys thanks for the help! 
I have the same rub marks on my wheels. 
Thus, I assumed the coupler box was the main culprit... 
However, even with the Kadees removed, both cars still bind heavily on the 10ft diameter curves. 8ft diameter was almost completely out of the question. 

Is it possible that the previous owner somehow lowered the cars a little bit from factory height? The wheel flanges are rubbing on the lower funnels of the hoppers when turning (scuff marks to prove it). 
My NW-2 (with batteries on board) was brought to full slip on a level 8ft diameter with 2 hoppers in tow. 

Marty, 
I was thinking about body-mounting the 907 E coupler.... http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page907-1907.htm 
Do you think this draft gear is a little narrower as well?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes 907 is the newer 789. they have always worked on 8ft dia curves. (good side to side motion) I just spin the box and modify the box alittle and redrill holes.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Marty...by "spin" do you mean that you use the draft box upside-down?


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By s-4 on 04 Jul 2011 06:29 PM 
(SNIP)
Is it possible that the previous owner somehow lowered the cars a little bit from factory height? The wheel flanges are rubbing on the lower funnels of the hoppers when turning (scuff marks to prove it). 
My NW-2 (with batteries on board) was brought to full slip on a level 8ft diameter with 2 hoppers in tow. 
(SNIP)

I wonder if the trucks on your car are not the original USAT all metal trucks that should be on the car? For example, they may have been swapped with different ones (perhaps ones with plastic side frames / bolsters), and a different bolster geometry is such that it effectively lowered the car or caused the wheel interference - even with the Kadee boxes removed as you said. 


Look closely at the picture of the car's truck that I had previously posted. Do yours look the same? Also, do the wheels look the same?


Just a thought,

-Ted


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I will get a photo


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ted, 
My cars have the factory-supplied die-cast trucks as shown in the photos above. This gives me an idea though...why don't I try a set of Aristo trucks from a 100 ton hopper? To be honest, I like the Aristo version a little better anyways. (mostly because of the wheel profiles) 

I'll have to get back to everyone with my results on Friday. No time for trains till the weekend...


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

Ive never had a issue running these cars on 8ft Dia curves with Kadees, just needed to trim the side of the couple box a little and Wa La.


Maybe you got some older cars or someone modified the cars you bought some how.

I know USAT just released some more of these and maybe the newer ones would do you better.

Just a though but heres the part #s just in case.

Adam

R 14102- ATSF

R 14121 ENJAY

R 12124- Tennaco Plastics


R12127- Saskatchewan

Hope this helps.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 5 of these cars and run them on 8 and 10 ft curves without issues. I did swap out the USAT trucks and put the AC 100 ton Roler bearing trucks under them. Slight mod is needed to stabilize the cars when doing this. also the cars sit to low and I also shimmed them up a bit. Later RJD


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi everyone, 
I had a great day with my 55ft hoppers after a few simple modifications! 

First, I removed the trucks to access the Kadee draft gear. As a temporary measure I removed the 2 outer screws, leaving the box only mounted by the rear screw. This enables the draft gear to be pushed side to side when necessary. Sometimes the draft force moves it over, other times the wheels push them over. Once narrower draft gears arrive, I will no longer need this action. 

Secondly, I inserted a single metal washer on each spindle to help raise the car up a little. This worked great!!! It raises the car up just high enough so that the the car can negotiate an 8ft diameter curve without having the flanges rub against the funnels of the hoppers. As an added bonus, I noticed that the underside details are also at a safer height for typical outdoor running. I was especially happy to see the hoppers slip through crossovers of LGB 1600 turnouts at speed with no problems or binding.


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## emert (Jun 20, 2011)

Hello - Anybody know how I should price a brand new, unopened box of 10' USA brass curve track, 12 pieces, #R81700? I can't use on my layout, having recently downsized. Also new Pola St. Michael's Church. Better place to advertise than eBay? Also have great DeHanes Santa Fe passenger set, and much LGB. Thanks, Emert


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## emert (Jun 20, 2011)

Hello - Anybody know how I should price a brand new, unopened box of 10' USA brass curve track, 12 pieces, #R81700? I can't use on my layout, having recently downsized. Also new Pola St. Michael's Church. Better place to advertise than eBay? Also have great DeHanes Santa Fe passenger set, and much LGB. Thanks, Emert


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