# F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212



## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

George Konrad, is building the first standard gauge mallet type steam locomotive to be built in 1:20.3....  

*http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html*


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## John McGuyer (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

I've seen various parts of George's model and it is very, very nice. 

John


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

On a visit to George's home last July, I saw this model. It is magnificent! This thing will be huge! He took my son and I on a little tour of his workshop. We knew we were in the domain of a true Master Modeler. We felt very privileged to be shown his work.


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

This thing is going to be awesome AND HUGE!!!! I do however have a question. This model is going to be F scale, standard guage, so would'nt that make it 1:20, not 1:20.3? I thought the 1:20.3 was for narrow guage. I know the lettering for narrow is technically Fn3 vs F for standard, but I was under the impression that the .3 was to specify running on 36" track. 
This will be my early learning for the day 

Thanks


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

The difference between scale (the size of the object compared to full size) and gauge (the distance between the rails) is often confusing. 
In F "scale" the models are 1:20.3 the size of the real object whether they are narrow or standard gauge. This came about when the defacto standard 45mm track was used to represent 3 ft narrow gauge. The models were changed in size, the track remained the same. To further muddy the waters some modelers wanted to use 45mm track to represent 2 ft narrow gauge so increased the size of the models again to 1:13.7 
Confused yet? 
Then some folks decided it would be neat to show the contrast of standard gauge models to the smaller narrow gauge. The models are still built to 1:20.3 scale but the gauge of the track was increased to 70-some millimeters (I can't remember off the top of my head) 
As for the F scale nomenclature as I understand it Fn3 means 1:20.3 scale models running on 45mm track. Fn2 would be 1:20.3 scale models running on 32mm track and F standard gauge 1:20.3 models on 70+mm track. 
To further confuse things, if you want to model standard gauge on 45mm track the proper scale is 1:32 but for various reasons 1:29 has become the standard scale for that but I won't go there. 
Hope this helps, 
Tom


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Tom, 
Thanks for the explanation. Confusing, yes, but I think I follow you. 

Thanks again 
Paul


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul,
For further clarification: The proper scale for 45mm track representing 36" gauge is actually 1:20.32! This, of course, is getting to be "rivet counter" ridiculous so we tend to round the number up. Some people go for 1:20 which is pretty darn accurate and most have gone one step futher and use 1:20.3 (go figure.) As you have eloquently pointed out, using only the 1:20.3 nomenclature doesn't distinguish between the various narrow gauges and standard gauge! This is the reason I prefer to use "Fn3" with (1:20.3) after to clarify. Hopefully, someday "F" Scale will come into the same recognition that "O" has (yeah, I know.....there will be a winter storm warning in hades when _that _happens...) Still, Fn3 is the only way to tell the scale _and_ gauge! Now, as to every _other_ scale running on 45mm track, well.....good luck and welcome to the "goofy gauge club!"









By the way, I believe that standard gauge in F Scale is 70.64mm.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

The way that I have settled on, to keep things straight is;
[*] Decide what you want to keep constant.

[*] *Model Track Gauge:* In the case of Large Scale (G-Gauge, G-Scale, #1 Gauge) for what ever reason, the de facto decision was to keep the gauge of the model track at 45mm. To do this the 'scale' ratio of the model to the prototype has to change to keep things in proportion.
For example;

[*] 1:13.7 Scale = Represents 2-foot gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track.
[*] 1:20.3 Scale = Represents 3-foot gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track.
[*] 1:24.0 Scale = Represents 3'-6" gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track
[*] 1:32.0 Scale = Represents 4'-8 1/2" gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track.

Any models of the various prototype equipment need to match the appropriate scale ratio listed above to maintain the proper proportion.



[/list] [*] *Model Scale Ratio:* If it's decided that the scale ratio is to remain constant, then the model track gauge has to vary to keep things in proportion.
For example;
[*] 1:20.3 Scale = Represents 2-foot gauge prototype track, with 30mm gauge model track.
(Note, since there's no commercial model track of this gauge made, 32mm gauge track has been substituted, or you can hand lay your own.)
[*] 1:20.3 Scale = Represents 3-foot gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track.
[*] 1:20.3 Scale = Represents 3'-6" gauge prototype track, with 52mm gauge model track.
(Note, since there's no commercial model track of this gauge available, then you're left with hand laying your own)
[*] 1:20.3 Scale = Represents 4'-8 1/2" gauge prototype track, with 70mm gauge model track.
(Note, since there's no commercial model track of this gauge available, then you're left with hand laying your own)
[/list] [/list] [/list]


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve not to nit pick....Well I guess I am.....I'm sure you know difference, but for those than may not know......  

F is a scale which is a ratio 1:20.3 .....or 15mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") 

In all the other scales HO. S, O, even in N gauge the way to designate the gauge track that is other then the standard 4'-8 1/2", is to add the _*letter "n" *_followed a number that represents the space between the rails...which although not common, might even represent a broad gauge "n5" (5 feet between the rails) but it's more commonly used to represent narrow gauge track...if the designation is *HOn3* this is *HO scale with a track gauge of 3 feet*. and so with any scale Sn3, On3, Nn3....even in in F scale...... 

[*] *"F":* represents the scale which is 1:20.3 Scale.....or 16mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") 

[*]*F* = without a trailing letter represents standard 4'-8 1/2" gauge prototype track, with 70mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn2 *= represents 2-foot gauge prototype track, with 30mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn3 *= represents 3-foot gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn3.5 *= represents 3'-6" gauge prototype track, with 52mm gauge model track 
In the above examples all represent the same scale which is...."F" which is 1:20.3 or 15mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") [/list] 
[/list]


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Dean, 
To nit pick further 16mm = 1'-0" is 1:19 scale as practiced popularly in Britain using 32mm track to represent two foot narrow gauge. 
1:20.3 is closer to 15mm = 1'-0". They're probably out there but I don't know of anyone handlaying track in 30 or 52mm gauges but do know of some building 70mm standard gauge. 
Further I always thought the sub n stood for narrow gauge so I'm not sure your broad gauge example is correct but then maybe it is. One more thing is On30, O scale on 30" gauge track vs On3 which might better be On36 but then I've never seen that either. 
I normally model in 1:20 scale on 45mm track but both the portable live steam tracks I've built have 32mm/45mm dual gauge to accomodate as many steamers as possible. I just finished a 1:13 scale (7/8"=1') on 45mm gauge loco which I will unveil next week at Diamondhead, MS. 
Paul is probably REALLY confused now! 
Oh well, it's all fun, 
Tom (definately not a rivet counter)


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Believe me, I'm going to print this topic and keep as a learning tool! 
Thanks to each of you 

Paul


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Thanks for the correction, I guess my old-timers is showing.....


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Just at people say 1mm is .039" well its actually .03937" 

I still would love to have a F scale std gauge to match my narrow gayge stuff.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dean Whipple on 01/11/2009 1:03 PM

Steve not to nit pick....Well I guess I am.....I'm sure you know difference, but for those than may not know......
















F is a scale which is a ratio 1:20.3 .....or 15mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") 

In all the other scales HO. S, O, even in N gauge the way to designate the gauge track that is other then the standard 4'-8 1/2", is to add the _*letter "n"  *_followed a number that represents the space between the rails...which although not common, might even represent a broad gauge "n5" (5 feet between the rails) but it's more commonly used to represent narrow gauge track...if the designation is *HOn3* this is *HO scale with a track gauge of 3 feet*. and so with any scale Sn3, On3, Nn3....even in in F scale...... 

[*] *"F":* represents the scale which is 1:20.3 Scale.....or 16mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") 

[*]*F* = without a trailing letter represents standard 4'-8 1/2" gauge prototype track, with 70mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn2 *= represents 2-foot gauge prototype track, with 30mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn3 *= represents 3-foot gauge prototype track, with 45mm gauge model track. [*]*Fn3.5 *= represents 3'-6" gauge prototype track, with 52mm gauge model track 
In the above examples all represent the same scale which is...."F" which is 1:20.3 or 15mm = 1'-0" (about 9/16") [/list] 
[/list] 
Dean 
I don't disagree with what you've stated (except for some minor dimensions, e.g. F = 1:20.32 per the NMRA spec.







).

The lack of my mentioning any of the various designation labels that are applied by various organizations, and groups of modelers around the world, wasn't an oversight but intensional. Additionally, I figured that limiting the discussion to track, it would be less confusing.

The point that I was trying to get across was, if you lock down one dimension (e.g. model track gauge, as we generally do in large scale) then the scale ratio has to change when using that dimension (i.e. 45mm) to represent the various prototype gauges that exist/existed.

On the other hand, if we lock down the scale ratio (e.g. 1:20.32) then the gauge of the model track has to change, just like the prototype does in the real world.

To me, if an individual can get their mind around those two concepts and feel comfortable with them, because they will always remain consistent. Then all the other alphabet soup of designations they'll encounter can be handled easier.

The one other thing that would most likely be helpful, is the fact that in some cases there is a certain fudge factor (plus or minus) applied to the scale ratio, for someone's ease of convenience.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, here we go again... I'm sure that we have managed to intimidate some of the newbies with all of the ratios and gauges (out to the nth decimal...) Getting back to the gist of this little deviation from the thread, the point 3 in 1:20.3 _doesn't_ refer to the gauge of the track being represented. As to the rest, F is a legitimate scale being represented by the ratio of 1:20.32 as per NMRA standards and bringing the thread back to the original topic, that 2-6-6-0 is _gorgeous!!_


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 01/12/2009 5:49 AM
Well, here we go again... I'm sure that we have managed to intimidate some of the newbies with all of the ratios and gauges (out to the nth decimal...) Getting back to the gist of this little deviation from the thread, the point 3 in 1:20.3 _doesn't_ refer to the gauge of the track being represented. As to the rest, F is a legitimate scale being represented by the ratio of 1:20.32 as per NMRA standards and bringing the thread back to the original topic, that 2-6-6-0 is _gorgeous!!_ 
That sir I can not agree with.

The uppercase 'F' is in fact nothing more than an arbitrary label that was chosen to use instead of actually stating the scale ratio.

Further more, as happens many times things sort of happened in reverse. In the case of what eventually came to be labeled 'Fn3' scale (1:20.32) under the NMRA - General Standard Scales S-1.2 (Approved July, 2004) (Remarks Column - see note 2, which references #1 Gauge track (i.e. 45mm)).

Originally began with modeling 3-foot narrow gauge prototypes on #1 Gauge model track (i.e. 45mm gauge). If you divide the gauge of the prototype track (i.e. 36"), by the gauge of the representative model track (i.e. 45mm, converted to its equivalent inch measurement) and round the result to two decimal places, the result is 20.32, thus the scale ratio is 1:20.32 and that is what the letter 'F' is being used to represent.

The next step in the sequence, was the NMRA decided to include what has generally come to be referred to as 'large scale', in their Standards. Since in most cases of their standards the base scale designation (i.e. in this case 'F') represents that particular scale ratio (i.e. 1:20.32) as it relates to the prototype Standard Gauge track (4'-8 1/2" gauge) and its associated equipment. This would result in a model track gauge of 70.62mm (2.781") using the defined scale ratio of 1:20.32.

Addressing the usual convention used when discussing the suffixes appended to the base scale designation. The lowercase letter 'n' denotes the fact that the scale ratio is being used to represent a prototype track gauge that is narrower than the Standard Gauge (i.e. 4'-8 1/2") prototype. Next the numbers following the lowercase alpha suffix, express the prototype track gauge being represented in either whole feet, or whole inches (e.g. n3 = 3-foot gauge, n30 = 30-inch gauge).

Additionally, addressing a point that Dean raised above, the case of modeling what is generally referred to as Broad Gauge (i.e. railroads where the prototype track gauge was larger than 4'-8 1/2"). If this were to be included within the standards, to maintain consistency I would think the proper lowercase alpha suffix to use would be a lowercase 'b', and continue to use the convention of expressing the track gauge in whole feet or whole inches. Thus a Broad Gauge prototype of 5-feet would be expressed as 'Fb5', and a Broad Gauge prototype of 5 1/2' feet would be expressed as 'Fb66'.

In so far as your statement...
"Getting back to the gist of this little deviation from the thread, the point 3 in 1:20.3 _doesn't_ refer to the gauge of the track being represented."
You're correct, in so far as the '.3' doesn't refer directly to the track gauge, it refers to the scale ratio, but the scale ratio defines the gauge dimension of the model track, and the level of precision that the model track, and any models of equipment, adheres to in its representation of the prototype. Because the scale ratio defines the linear measurement that represents one scale foot (i.e. 12 / 20.32 = 0.59" (approx. 9/16")). Note, some individuals also round this value to the nearest tenth of an inch (i.e. 0.6) so they can use an engineering rule graduated in tenths of an inch.

Finally, I don't agree with this aversion to discussing the concept of scale ratios and proportion with individuals new to the modeling hobby realm. Since it's the foundation that all of what's done in modeling rests upon. Once those concepts are understood all the rest of the alpha-numerical soup they'll encounter falls in place rather nicely, with a little explanation of what the various designations represent.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve,
What part of my statement don't you agree with? The scale ratio for "F" is 1:20.32! That's what I said and that's what you appear to be saying! What's to disagree with? F is a legitimate scale (in my opinion and in many others.) Please re-read what I have posted and I believe you will see that we actually are in agreement on this. As to discussing scale ratios and gauge widths, I love these discussions but it seems as if by doing so we are hijacking this thread. Just my opinion.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve

If that's what you meant by what you said then I guess we do agree, but it sure didn't come across that way when I read it, maybe it was just me.

By the way, I did forget to mention in the previous reply that I did agree with your statement that that is going to be one beautiful standard gauge locomotive in 1:20.3 scale, it's going to dwarf anything else that runs on #1 gauge track.


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## DavidQueener (Jan 10, 2009)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Hello Gentlemen, 

It's been a pleasure making parts for George--it just takes a lot of time to CAD up various bits and pieces and then cut them out on the EDM. Some of the parts have been very fiddly--for instance the lead truck components--but George had done a good job putting them together. 

I rather wish some of the rest of you all would get interested in building a 1:20.32 standard gauge locomotive. I'd be open to sharing parts and expenses if someone wanted to build a loco with me (I already three in various stages of construction). It's usually more fun and more motivating to have a collaborator! 

Why "F" scale? Well, maybe the NMRA guys did this on purpose, maybe not, but in metrics, 1:20.32 is the same as 15mm = 1 foot, so "F" is a convenient abreviation for "fifteen." 

As far as the exact track gauge for "F Gauge" is concerned, there is of course an upper and lower limit on the tolerances. That lower limit is 70.64mm (2.781"). The upper limit is 2.842". When Don Niday and I had the mold for the plastic tie strip made, we settled on a nice round inbetween number of 2.8" for the gauge. All the more recent roller gages that we sell gage the rails to that figure. But it's not that critical: Anyone who can handlay to .010" has my hat off to him. 

Cheers! 

Dave Queener 
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com


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## DavidQueener (Jan 10, 2009)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Gentlemen, 

George has sent me additional pics of his loco, and I have also completed regauging his Accucraft drivers. You can see the updates here: 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html 

Cheers, 

Dave Queener


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

An interesting side comment to help with the big picture: In 2008 I attended the Narrow gauge convention in Portland Or. One of the vendors there had some beautiful buildings on the table with a sign stating reservations accepted. The scale of the buildings was 1:24, and intended for large scale. Being in large scale and a 1;20 modeler, Ii naturally engaged them in a question -why 1:24 when you would sell far more at 1:20, were they aware of what is happening in large scale, and so on. What I got back was basically a nasty response with many more folks around the table joining in- with the bottom line that 1:20 is a "*******" scale-direct quote. They had no interest in the fact that 1:20 is growing. if you read between the lines however, the point is that all these guys are small scale modelers,and they model from plans, and use scale rulers and methods of scale conversion developed decades ago. 1:24 is also known as half inch scale, and is easy to convert from other scales, easy to do the basic math, and lots of plans already exist. They had no interest in 1:20 at all, and will not produce structures or models in that scale. When I suggested as I walked away that scale and plan conversion is best done with a computer, that is what puters are best at after all, number crunching, all i got was blank stares and no response at all . If they cannot model it with ancient ruler methods, they do not model it at all. For the vast majority of NMRApeople and model railroaders in general, this is what we face.... 

jonathan/EMw


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

This has been very interesting reading about the various scale issues with "F" scale.

I'm in the, as Steve calls it, "goofy gauge" club of 1:22.5. But so is Barry Bogs. Not sure if anyone follows his website, but he also combines narrow gauge equipment with standard gauge equipment. But what makes it interesting is that he models in 1:22.5. Meaning nearly everything he does has to be scratchbuilt.


Here is a link to his website:

Barry Bogs Layout


And back to the topic here, that 2-6-6-0 is simply incredible. A real thing of beauty. I like how George goes into detail with lots of photos too.


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## GeorgeMMR (Jan 19, 2008)

Wow!
Thanks for all the kind words, guys. Just two days ago I received my re-gauged drivers from Dave Queener, they are just great! I have spent this morning making the drive connection from the motor to the gear box, as the "stock" shaft was too long. The shaft is hardened (at least hard enough to deter any of my drill bits from even denting it), so I resorted to a marvelous little box of tools that many years ago I got from a Dr. Georgeann Apgar. Yep, little dental burrs, and one of them did the job to allow the pin for the coupling to be set through the shaft.
By Monday (going to relatives this weekend) I should have the motor mounted and the power pickups made. After that, it is a matter of finishing the details (not many, now) and putting this loco onto the track. By the way, this is a rather small loco for an articulated, as the D&SL 2-8-2 boiler is just about the same size as the one on the 2-6-6-0; therefore building a more "common" and larger articulated would really result in a HUGE model.
I will be sending more photos to Dave, so peek at his web site from time to time. Also, I am planning the have the loco on display somewhere in the Del Oro layout area at the West Coast Large Scale Train Show in Pomona.
George


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the most gratifying is that the scale ratio of 1:20.32 is continuing to _grow._ Whether you want to call it F Scale, 1:20 or whatever the point is that the scale is evolving from a "scratch-built only" niche scale modeling narrow gauge equipment and is now beginning to also encompass _standard gauge _models! We are essentially in "F" scale with standard gauge models where we were with Fn3 narrow gauge models 15 to 20 years ago! Life is good.


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## DavidQueener (Jan 10, 2009)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

Gentlemen, 

George has sent me more pics of the completed, but unpainted loco, some of which are from the BTS show a week ago. You can view them here: 
http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html 
Cheers! 
Dave Queener


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: F scale D&SL 2-6-6-0 #212*

WOW! That's BEAUTIFUL!!! I can't stop drooling...


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## DavidQueener (Jan 10, 2009)

And here is another update on my own standard gauge modeling in 1:20.3: 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/Dave'sFreightCars.html 

Cheers, 

Dave Queener 
Knoxville, TN


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## DavidQueener (Jan 10, 2009)

George Konrad has sent me a couple of photos of his painted D&SL 2-6-6-0 mallet in 1:20.3 standard gauge, plus a pic each of his scratchbuilt Pennsy flat and D&SL caboose. You can view them, here, bottom of page: 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/KonradGallery.html 

And if you would like to see some of my older work, I have also added additional pics to my Gauge 3 page: 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/Dave'sGauge3.html 

Cheers! 

Dave Queener, 
Knoxville, TN


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