# Ocean full of problems.



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Pacific Ocean that is.

A while back I tried running a used Pacific made by Aristo Craft. I had bought it off someone on the Aristo page of Facebook. I was told it came with a radio and that it ran. Well, it sat for a few months after it arrived before I tried running it. With the radio I could not get it to do anything. So I tried putting power directly to the motor. Still nothing. 

Today I pulled the valve gear and side rods off the power block. removed the power block and with a small screw driver, moved the fan inside the motor. Then I went to my power box and hooked 22 volts DC directly to the motor, It ran! All 6 wheels seemed to spin as I held the motor block in place.

So I came in and installed the motor block back in the frame of the boiler. When I went to install the side rods, I found that the wheels on one side did not line up correctly. But the center wheel and back wheel turned so I could install the side rods. So now the side rods are in place, but they are placed the same as the other side. Shouldn't they be clocked opposite or at least differently from the other side? Not that it makes any difference in running, since the rods are just for looks, but they won't look right, right? I'm thinking they were this way to begin with since the front wheels would not turn when I tried turning them by hand. The screws holding the center and back wheels were loose and I tightened them.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Also, is this Aristo craft Pacific supposed to pick up track power from the drivers or only the tender wheels?


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

They should be "quartered"..
Drivers on one side have the crank pins 90 degrees different from the other side.

I have never heard of any model steam locomotive that did not have quarterd drivers..(although its certainty possible!)
(I dont have an Aristo steamer, but all my Bachmann engines are properly quartered)

I would guess your Pacific is supposed to have quartered drivers..
I would think it would have come that way..
if it isnt quartered now, then something is probably out of alignment.

Anyone have an Aristo pacific? please check for quartering..

Scot


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> Also, is this Aristo craft Pacific supposed to pick up track power from the drivers or only the tender wheels?


My gen-1 Aristo Pacific picks up power from pilot truck, trailing truck, and all 6 drivers. If you look under the boiler, on top of the frame there are a couple of screws where all the pickup wiring aggregates. Two wires run from there to the motor. 
I think the tender pickups only drive the sound system - although you could couple them to the loco pickups. Note there is a plug for a 9v battery instead of the track power inside the tender.

Of course, yours may be different. [My tender wheels collapsed from old age and plastic degradation when I took it down recently. I fitted Bachmann wheels but they don't work with hub pickups so I added a battery.]

And yes, mine are quartered - at 90 deg from the other side.

Don't forget there's a motor power switch in the cab. Push forward to disconnect the motor on the RH switch looking forward. And take a look at George Schreyer's page - that's how I got my refresher when I tried mine this week!


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

To be prototypically accurate your wheels should be quarters, functionally, on an electric engine, they can be anywhere. The quartering was necessary only for real live steam operation as the push-pull action of the pistons was smoothest and least binding when they were 1/4 turn off from each other. With an electrical drive system they are just there for the looks and realistically you'd never be able to tell visually on side from the other if they were lined up or not.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete the previous owner gutted this thing to run on battery. I'm just trying to make it run. I'll try loosing the screws holding the wheels to the axles and see if I can spin them so they are 90 degrees from the other side. This is looking more and more like a future Ebay parts listing.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Parts fodder for yourself!!

Now ...as to the dynamics of quartering driving wheels....

Cylinders provide power in both directions...
By having a side a 1/4 off from the other...there are equally divided power impulses applied to the wheels, giving constant and smooth power to move a locomotive..

Any arrangement other than 90 degrees would apply uneven amounts of power and be less efficient in the scheme of things...

Dirk


----------



## aspoz (Jun 18, 2014)

And, if not quartered, there is the potential for thw wheel to stop with the connecting rod lined is such a way that there is little mechanical advantage on start, making starting very difficult - in effect they could stop at top or bottom dead centre, although of course that is not a true way to put it in relation to the earth's surfaceCoffee


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I always heard the quartering was because:

If they were 180 degrees apart, it would be possible for a locomotive to come to a stop with one cylinder "top dead center" and the other "bottom dead center"..
(or both could be top center, or bottom, if they were set the same on both sides..)
this could result in the locomotive not being able to start easily again..

but if they are 90 degrees apart, when the loco stops there is no way *both* cylinders can be top or bottom centered, so at least one cylinder will be in the middle of its stroke, so the steam can push it and get the locomotive started again..

I think we have at least three different theorys in this thread! 

Scot


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Your " theory" is important..and true..

If the drivers were not quartered..say instead ran 180 off..it would be extremely difficult for a train to move and get its load started...it would take forever to get up to any running speed..and may not achieve what we know as full speed....

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know about the Aristo Pacific, but both of my Aristo steamers have a switch for track or battery operation. Look in the cab, or behind the smoke box door. 

But if he gutted the wiring, having the switch will be of little use, unless you rewire to for track and battery.

Chuck


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Need to determine if first gen Pacific or later. Big difference.

If there are pickups on the pilot and trailing trucks then gen 1...

Later generations have the "prime mover" motor blocks, pickup on drivers only.

Many Aristo locos have power pickup problems, and if they don't pick up on all drivers, you need to partially disassemble the gearboxes to fix.

Read my section on prime mover under motive power and the prime mover.

Greg


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

you have to look underneath the chassis to see the motor with the boiler removed so I'm pretty sure it's a second gen. But no wires on the lead truck. As I said, this thing was gutted. No switches. I'm thinking I will rob the trucks from one of my USAT cabeese and use them on the tender to power this thing. 

The motor plug has 4 wires going to it. Can someone tell me what the two extra wires are for?


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Lights?
Smoke?
Mirrors?


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

If they are not quartered, they will bind up.


----------



## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Jerry...

Its an electric toy..what will the drivers bind on???
The valve gear does nothing but follow the parade..there fore the valve gear does not control position or timing of the drivers on either side...

Just curious here...this is not live Steam. ...

Dirk


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

On electric locomotives, the two sides don't have to be quartered, but the drive rods must be in the same position on every wheel on the same side. If not they will bind. That is how my Aristo Mikado became a shelf queen. One of the drive wheels slipped on its axle and pretty well ruined the drive gear on one side. It runs well, but it looks a little funny on the side running without any drive rods.

If anyone has a power block or a complete set of drive gear (engineer's side) for an Aristo Mike please PM me.

Chuck


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

chuck n said:


> On electric locomotives, the two sides don't have to be quartered, but the drive rods must be in the same position on every wheel on the same side. If not they will bind. That is how my Aristo Mikado became a shelf queen. One of the drive wheels slipped on its axle and pretty well ruined the drive gear on one side. It runs well, but it looks a little funny on the side running without any drive rods.
> 
> If anyone has a power block or a complete set of drive gear (engineer's side) for an Aristo Mike please PM me.
> 
> Chuck


Surely this 'quartering and electric loco' only applies to Aristo locos with gearboxes on every axle? I recall O-scale locos that had problems as they were driven on the rear axle, and any slop [or 180 quartering] meant the front drivers would bind.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> you have to look underneath the chassis to see the motor with the boiler removed so I'm pretty sure it's a second gen. But no wires on the lead truck. As I said, this thing was gutted. No switches. I'm thinking I will rob the trucks from one of my USAT cabeese and use them on the tender to power this thing.
> 
> The motor plug has 4 wires going to it. Can someone tell me what the two extra wires are for?


Randy,
I sorta gutted mine to fit batteries, and then I took them out as they were 10 years old and dead. I recently (just last week) took it down and took the boiler off to add weight and sort out the track power.

The truck bearings have little tabs on them - you should be able to add wires. The front truck (I just got it off the shelf and turned it over) has two strips along behind the sideframes, and the strips have a tab sticking up in front of the rear wheel to solder on the wire. I could take photos if necc?

The drivers pick up through the bearings (according to George S) and mine has a couple of wires exiting on top of the frame and terminated on the two pegs, along with all the rest of the wires.

I believe the smoke unit gets its feed from those frame pegs. I recall being surprised that the smoke power was still on! Wait - ther's a switch in the cab, so it's more complex than that.

Mine has at least 4 wires on the motor - I think two go to the cab light or flickering firebox?

It's not difficult to take the driver frame out - 8 screws obviously behind the frame cover screws and behind the front wheels. [Tricky to gt the Universal back together, but not a big deal.] Get the frame out and see what wires you have on top of it.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I'm thinking I will rob the trucks from one of my USAT cabeese and use them on the tender to power this thing.


 I like that idea. As noted, the sound system can be driven by a 9V battery. 

George says it is easy to take the bottom off the driver frame and see what is going on. You might find the wires in there?


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Pete. I had the block out of the frame and there are no wires showing. I may take the gear box lid off and look inside, but right now I'm going to quarter the drivers and see if it will run off the cabeese trucks.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The drivers do NOT pick up through the bearings. I believe that was in the original design, but if you study my page on the prime mover gearboxes, power pickup is from a single metal ball pressing on the axle.

The parts in the power path can make it so it often does not work. 

Also the drivers do not need to be quartered, all they need to be is in sync on each side.

Greg


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. I guess I need to take the cover off and see what's inside the gear box.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> Thanks Greg. I guess I need to take the cover off and see what's inside the gear box.


Randy,
I was charging the camera yesterday so I took these photos for you.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Yea, mine doesn't have any of those wires. No post like you show.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, I think we pretty much confirmed that Randy's is not a 1st gen, but one with the new prime mover gearboxes, pickup only from the drivers (and the tender)...

Your pictures are of a 1st gen.

Regards, Greg


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> Yea, mine doesn't have any of those wires. No post like you show.


So do the existing tender wheels have solder tags behind/on the bearings for pickup? I was wondering why you'd need to swap the trucks.


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The tender I have has no wires or brush holders on the trucks. But like the rest of the loco, the trucks have probably been changed. The trucks have no working springs. They have a fake leaf spring. Come to think about that, Rocky probably would like them for one of his cabeese.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy Stone said:


> The tender I have has no wires or brush holders on the trucks. But like the rest of the loco, the trucks have probably been changed. The trucks have no working springs. They have a fake leaf spring. Come to think about that, Rocky probably would like them for one of his cabeese.


My tender trucks have the same fake transverse leaf spring. Unscrew it from the inside and you can pull the sideframe off the bolster (the fake spring holds it up so it doesn't drop down and fall thru the hole.)
I can't believe someone would go to the trouble of removing all the little solder tags under the bearings! Why not just cut the wires?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a group of people that love to "really gut" a loco when converting to battery, going to a lot of extra effort to remove wires, connectors, etc., when simply disconnecting a wire would be fine.

My philosophy is to have as many of my changes "reversable" as possible, hopefully all of them.

Greg


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Most folks don't think that way. They just gut and let the next un suspicious person figure it out after they have been took. Later RJD


----------

