# Getting closer but few more ?'s



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm getting closer to actually running trains. The back breaking part is mostly over. The track is floating on gravel and using clamps. The main gravel bed is 1.5" septic gravel, then I'll add smaller for the final ballast, grade, leveling, etc. I'm getting the basic grade and leveling (using the Sears electronic level) with the bigger stuff and doing some test running to check clearances, etc. my goal is of course to get the side to side perfectly level. But I've got an area where I've got a 90 curve into a 1' straight then a reverse 90. The first curve is coming down a 2% grade and I'm having a problem keeping it level side to side in the first curve. I can prop up the side and kind of get it close, but I'm not sure once I start balasting if it will stay put. So the question is how close to level is close? Should I just over tork it to force it in place, but will it hold with just ballast?

I'm having problems getting the pic transferred from my phone to iPad, so will try it from desk tomorrow. It will help understand the curve in case I'm not clear. But I've done all this one finger typing on iPad so don't want to loose it.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is how I do it. 



http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/118918/afv/topic/Default.aspx



I bury the track with ballast till I can't see the ties. I level the ballast to rail height.

I put a level across the track and then lift the rail by the ties with two fingers till it is level side to side. 

While I am holding the rail level side to side I tap on the rail. The ballast will fill in under the raised track and when you let go the rail should stay level side to side

JJ


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I sure do hope you used weed block between the different road bed gravel sizes as small stones tend to filter through the larger and larger will float/work their way to the top. 

(farmers are always finding large rocks in their fields even after years of operation)


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

[No message]


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

First of all, the area below all of this is actually natural hard pack calachie, which is good in some respects but bad in others. That is why the raised beds. Great for stability and no weeds (or anything else) buy bad for water drainage. Hense the raised beds where we put dirt where we want to grow something. It was **** getting it level once the bobcat hit the hard pack. But, yes I did use the weed block between the rock border and the gravel. Since this has been a multi-year project, I have been able to see that very few things would grow up through. A little roundup in a few places always worked. This spring the wife starts the dirt planting so the issue will be stuff trying to creep over the border. I'll probably start another pic thread showing the various stages at some point.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get it as close as you can and re-level it often... after a while it will conform to your wishes 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

large rocks 'pop' up,.... from rain - wind - and erosion .... 

the dirt leaves the area and the rocks are left behind!! Some have found the dirt in the next state !!!! ha!! 

D


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok Greg, I'm closing my eyes and tapping the heals of my ruby red slippers together 3 times and making my wish.........poof........... 

Didn't work. Your not here doing it for me while I drink a cool one and bark out the commands. Then I woke up. Still not level.......try again next weekend. ??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

you can try some long nails (like the 9 inch ones for gutters) pulling down the high sides. 

It may be a few weeks to get the track to behave... being forced into place and the heating and cooling of the track gradually allowing to relax. 

Be patient... find something to hold it in place 

Greg


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

Mickey, 
if you got enough space, so that you don't need the first curve to be part of the grade.... 

... then you could bend the last part of the grade (towards the curve) upwards. if the curve is not part of the grade, it is easier to keep it levelled sideways.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ahhhhhhhhhh, go ahead an try a little super-elevation at the top of the curve ball... 

!!!!!..Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't become overly 'stuck' - or OC - about side to side level... 

run your trains over the track work, make sure it 'flows' well - evenly and smoothly ...nice flowing transitions.. 

Are your trains happy rambling down the track..? 

Let them 'decide'..... 

D


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dirk, with the tight curves people have, and the example given (look at the picture again) an "S" curve and on a grade, I submit that cross level is very important, unless you are running 4 axle toy trains. 

Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Do you have a railbender or are you just bending by hand?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Another thing you can do, is raise the low side and do not support the other side... the weight of the loco running over will help accelerate the "learning process" of the rail to conform to your wishes. 


Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a curve on a grade that is problematic with long wheel base engines due to leveling. What I did was to take long stiff pieces of brass wire and bend one end over in a broad [email protected] turn. I put this around the high-side tie and push it into the ground to keep this side from coming up, It may take a few spaced out a bit.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you find that over time, it "relaxed" closer to the intended contour? 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By jake3404 on 22 Jan 2013 05:48 PM 
Do you have a railbender or are you just bending by hand? 

All aristo sectional.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Gotta have knee meniscus surgery in morning so will be out of track work for couple weeks, but at least I've got plenty of curve sections that I can work on the wire soldering to keep things moving.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

. ??


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok Guys,.. I have time to play trains now!! 

I'll try to es'plain my thoughts with a pic here!! Maybe I can foller my train - hope you guys can!! 

 


Let's see here now, the numbers might help a heep.. 

The primary thing I see is that the main down grade is moving away from the picture, and is located at 2, following the big lellow arrow - to Me this sets the majority of the cross level and just the ends are left to deal with, this point running thru the Split-S section in the middle, I don't see it as a problem, and it comes out level as you would like. even yes,.. cross - level... 

the upper end, 1- is OK as is to me, the bit of downgrade setting a bit of twist at this point, meaning the inside - smaller curve will run a bit lower, than the outer curve for awhile, the advantage is this 'leads' the loco and then the cars 'into the curve' in a rather natural fashion here!!So - it should not cause an issue here.... 

AH,.. but 3 is unique and there fore different and also creates a problem. In this corner of the track work, as the Split-S continues it's down wards grade spiral what happens is the inner track now has become the higher rail, which will inherently not be good for a train to roll thru, as it will be working against the natural flow of travel.. this spot will indeed need added work to correct the reverse tilt to the rails, as the cross level is basically backwards now... 

I hope this clears up any mis - confusious I may have presented, in a more thourough manner..!! 

If not - I will de-fer to higher powers ... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Jan 2013 07:20 PM 
Did you find that over time, it "relaxed" closer to the intended contour? 

Greg 

To some extent. But I leave them on. They are unnoticable.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Dirk, thanks for the time on this. Just to be clear, your number 3 is actually the highest point and 1 is the lowest. As I recall about 2 inches of drop over about 8 foot of actual rail. What has happening is the upper S (between your 2 and 3) the right side rail as you look at the picture is lower. I don't remember which side on the lower S, but as I recall it was not a big issue there. At the bottom, you can see a 5' section just laying which will hook up to switch at the last curve section. It will go left as you look at the pic, where it will have a bridge across the pathway. The top steps where your 3 is, is flat both directions and where it comes down into the switch at your 1, is also flat both ways. I propped up the low edge and ran an engine/tender only over it and it seemed to make it but there was some wobble and as I add cars, expect it to possibly be bigger issue. Also trains will be running from your 3 to 1 as far as direction so going down hill.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow Mickey, First good luck tomorrow with the knee, mine are not so good anymore ....getting tired or just plain wore 'em out - early... 

Ok - so - glad I added numbers now. go ahead and reverse the content for 1 & 3 - the text will work that way now also....ha 

I got a 2.08 % grade in 8 feet, not bad, and down grade only eh!! OK 

Now to me for the wobble it sounds like there is a short distance with rail that changes in level too quickly for the length is all, why I mentioned having long transitions before.. 

The best news is you have run a loco thru this area, it works - and when your stronger again later on,. you can work on softening or eliminating the loco wobble .... 

Oh ya, Your on the Right track here - more pix please!!!! THX 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Because I don't use any form of stone ballast I had to find another way to keep my curves level.

The best solution I found was garden staples. I put these over the high point tie ends and hammer down until the track is level side to side. Works great.

I get mine from Walmart:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Once they start to rust a bit, will hold forever 

I found that out when trying to move some drip line held in with them !! 


Greg


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

I've used those same staples to hold down the weedblock on my layout. I live in Western NC where the weather is quite mild during the winter with moderate freezing and thawing. One thing I noticed that, depending on the soil conditions, some of the staples were pushed up as much as an inch due to the freezing an thawing. I think rusting minimized this but it's something to consider.

Doc


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, I survived surgery but it did take me much longer to come out of the anesthesia than before. I just hate all that medical stuff. Good news is no pain this time which is am amazed at, but thankful. Slowly time to get back to work on railroad.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Good to hear your OP went so well!!! 

Dirk


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I knew it had to be too good to be true. First 18 hours no pain at all, then wham. I guess the IV pain meds were still in me until thursday night when asleep then bam......but working thru it and less pain each day, but forget getting back to anything outside for at least a week, maybe more. But thanks for thinking.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 26 Jan 2013 11:27 AM 
Good to hear your OP went so well!!! 

Dirk 
What's OP?


JJ


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Operation. Had knee meniscus work.


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Looks like it has been a month and not much said about the gravel and level of the rail bed? Since you mention hard pack calachie....I assume you are somewhere in the southwest dessert and that stuff is as hard as concrete..Ha. Just looking at the photo, I would offer that you don't seem to have enough "fines" in with the larger rock ballast. The septic rock is great for drainage at the lower levels, but when you are trying to make fine leveling adjustments to the track, you might want to add a layer of crushed granite. I know in the Sun City, Arizona area you can take a couple of 5 gallon Home Depot buckets to the local rock/gravel dealers...pick out the color you like best, and get some the the crushed granite that is between 1/8 -1/4" of an inch. Sometimes called granite sand. This stuff will pack down nicely and with only water, settle right in. After a couple of watering and drying sessions, you shouldn't need anything to hold it firmly in place. Good luck and hope this works.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks for additional input. I've been working slowly as I heal the knee. Mosly been bringing in the curved section and doing the jumper soldering where I can stand and not work on my knees. That actually has taken longer than I anticipated. Couple weeks ago started walking to get things with the knee back before I start my final serious training for my 3rd degree blackbelt test in May (been training/waiting for 3 years and don't want to miss it now just because of some stupid old knee). But last week I started back slowly and natural instints took over and was too much. Then the weekend was on the knees doing some track work. And Monday I started some very light jogging mixed with my walk. Well, I'm paying for all that now. So gotta ease up. But I am making progress. 

FlagstaffLGB, I'm actually in central Texas, just north of San Antonio. All of the bigger gravel is just for base work/drainage but was doing basic track checkout. The better the base, the better and easier the final. I am planning on using decomposed granite for the final gradding work and to give a color difference where the track is, just as soon as I make it all the way around with jumpers and base work.


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