# Aristo Dash 9 under DCS



## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Hoped her up a bit. Changed out the smoke unit and control boards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-1h...e=youtu.be


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

YUP, Nice but really sucks as long term durability is compromisd because of the removal of a motor for a tach strip. 


Jethro


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's no comparing the stock Aristo unit to a smoke unit driven by the MTH board.... the stock Aristo units are anemic. 

Who did the conversion? 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Why I did Greg?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool.. which MTH unit did you use? 

I had the G scale Hudson one recommended to me, that's the only one I own right now. 

How did you mount it, and did you make any type of "heat sink"? 

It does not look like you are driving the unit really hard, so maybe it does not need anything else. 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

I have to ask what you mean by unit? It's a MTH upgrade kit. It's made for G gauge with a aluminum stand for mounting the B.Rect. I don't know what you mean by G gauge hudson one. Was it taken out of a Hudson then?? Maybe you're referring to an O gauge steam upgrade?? Care to sell me it??
There's only one available for G gauge unless someone physically upgraded an O gauge kit for you swapping out the board's parts. 
I'm pulling around 60 cars in that video with 4 diesels and two dummies. I'm trying more cars, like 75. They just stringlined on me trying to move the train apart to add more cars! Sugar. I have to go over my rolling stock and add weight and body mounted couplers to run much longer trains.


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=huHD5Bvq8pQ 
here's one of the whole train that day. I'll be adding more cars.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When you said "hoped" [sic] her up, I thought you meant you changed the Aristo smoke unit out. That's where I was... 

I guess your meaning of "hopping" her up was to take out ALL the Aristo electronics and smoke unit and put in a Proto II board and smoke unit. 

Nope, I'm trying to order more MTH smoke units, they seem to be the most robust, although I'm continuing my updates to Aristo and USAT ones for people that don't want to buy new smoke units. 

The Aristo one can be made to smoke quite well, but the plastic body worries me that it's going to start deforming... at the power levels I want. 

I like the USAT one, but the reservoir is way too small. 

The MTH ones look great, may try to purchase a larger unit, but I think "up" from the Hudson puts me in the "dual" units, like challenger, big boy (forget which). 

So, did you remove a motor and add a flywheel? 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Yeah, had to do that for flywheel. Thought of adding one to the end. It would need another support bearing and would make it long and awkward. There's just not that much room inside the truck.
I missed that you were describing the smoke unit only. I just didn't get it until right now. Duh. It makes sense that you're talking about just a Hudson smoke unit. I was thinking about the board because of the comment about heat sinking it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Curious, did you leave both motors in one truck, and just one in the other? 

By the way, how did you make the flywheel? 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

I left the other truck stock. I bought a flywheel. I mounted it to a hex shaft by drilling and tapping a hole for a screw. I trapped it by using a piece of styrene tube.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Very cool, I know of only one other person who makes flywheels, so I was curious if you bought or made. 

Sorry, more curiosity.... does the kit tell you the diameter of the flywheel you need so the tach strip fits, or ?? I know this is sort of a critical part, although I don't know exactly what the MTH system does if you "cheat" on the tach strip "stripes"... 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

You can make your own tach tapes as I did. The number of stripes is the key to achieve the correct speed profile with the gearing of the engine. In this case, it was easier to actually play with the stripes to get it perfect.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yeah, that's what I understand... you get the number you want, and then play with the widths to get them to "match" the circumference of the flywheel, right? 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

correct I guess. When I got the # of stripes I wanted and printed them out they fit without any further modifying. I guess I got lucky then.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, you should consider yourself lucky, since you made your own flywheel and your own tach strips. The planets must have aligned, or is this not your first Aristo DCS conversion? 

Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

"YUP, Nice but really sucks as long term durability is compromisd because of the removal of a motor for a tach strip." 



Not really as I have several of these Dash-9's converted like this and the least of the problems is motors...or lack of them.. I can take a brand new Dash-9 and hook on such a heavy train that all 4 motors burn up in a few minutes...The least durable part on the Aristo drives is the axles that are made out of brass as they wear out way before 1 motor or anything else wears out. The axles wear out where the ball bearing rides and where the tiny power pickup ball rides.

Here's a pic of worn out parts from one of my Dash-9's that are converted to DCS..and the motors are fine! Top axle is out of a new drive...bottom one is about a year old and wore out!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, this is a long post, be sure to read all the way through to understand.

Regarding the picture with the wear on the axle: I've never seen that wear personally there, but I'll state that this is a weak part of the Aristo motor block design, in my opinion. 


First analysis [/b]

On the bottom axle, something does not make any sense at all... the left side shows a groove like the axle has been in one "horizontal" alignment, and the ball wore a groove. There should be very little pressure there and a little lube. 


Wear like this should not happen.

Below is a picture of the ball bearing in question, it is the power pickup from the wheel... wheel...axle, ball bearing, spring, and then to a metal retainer clip.










The retainer clip has a small finger that (should) touch the spring.

Below is a picture showing retaining clip with the small finger that touches the spring:










And below is the unit showing the "main" / "load bearing" ball bearing (which does not conduct electricity, thus the need for the ball and spring)










But what makes no sense at all is the other side of the same axle... where you have a wide groove worn in it... I cannot understand at all how this could be happening, since the axle is one assembly, and the right side implies that the axle has been moving side to side... but that's impossible looking at the wear on the left axle. 

Simple logic: 

Looking at the left side says that the wear occurred in one spot, and the axle never slid side to side. 
Looking at the right side says the wear occurred over a range and the axle slid left side to side about 1/4" inch. 

It's just impossible that BOTH the wear spots you show are from the ball bearing riding on the axle... 


So at first, I could not believe the picture. No way BOTH wear patterns are from the single ball bearing.
[/b]
Second analysis: [/b]

OK, so now, double checking my conclusion, I'm racking my brain for another possible explanation... it's in my opinion, possible:

1. The axle was not sliding side to side for some reason. 
2. The left side was caused by wear from single ball bearing riding on the axle (that does the power pickup) 
3. The right axle wear was caused by the "main" ball bearing assembly seizing so that the axle was turning inside the inner race of the main ball bearing. 


Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The wide groove on the right lower axle is from the axle spinning inside of the ball bearing race. On the left side the bearing race was rotating. Once the power pickup balls start grooving the axles they essentially "lock" it into place..can't move crossways as they act like little indents. 

That's what happens when you have a soft material like the axle mating up to harder material like a ball bearing & race. I see it all the time in the crane repair world..bearings spinning in their bores and inner bearing races spinning on the shafts...That's why Loctite Quick-Metal was invented. 

Can also see it on the gear as the worm was wearing in one spot.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Chuck 
I have seen that grove on one of my gp40's. new gp ran for about 15min. motor started to go south, so i changed out the motor and change greese in gear box when i pulled 
the box apart there was the grove not even 15 min. on it. at the time i asked Ted D. about it he said he had not seen it before.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, the second analysis is right. 

Wow, what a mess... 

Not beating up on Aristo (although my analysis of the design caused my leaving the Aristo forum, it was either retract my statements and change my web site or go), but this is a weakness on relying the side to side slippage to compensate for curves and of course what you said Chuck, soft metal... actually you would think the axle plating would be relatively tough, but then once through that, the soft metal underneath gave way. 

I have never cut through an Aristo axle to see what it is made of, it appears cast of some type of pot metal, but in the pictures you show, it appears to be brass underneath. That would jive with how easy it is to bend them. 

Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow Greg! I never seen the pics you posted earlier but I did have problems replying as I got a screen that said The Forum Is Down??

I'm not beating up on Aristo either as just have to deal with these things. I was disappointed to see how wore everything was. And this was back when the only replacement drives in stock were the ******* versions with stainless steel wheels..you know the ones that Robbie was about giving away. Luckily my track work is about perfect so they do okay. I suppose I could order new axles from Aristo then put the old wheels back on.

Dick413...That sucks esp. after 10 minutes of use! 

Here's another pic of a bunch of axles wore out which makes me wonder about how much weight to really put in say a Dash-9 or E8? Everything is a compromise


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, those pictures are from my web site for all to see, on my (in)famous thread about the prime mover... the one that Lewis was REALLY upset about. (He threatened me with legal action).

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains/mot...ver-basics*

Can you confirm what that metal is on the axles? Sure looks like brass, if so, must be machined. I've always assumed they were pot metal and plated, from the inconsistency of the surface and the wide variation in wheel gage, but maybe they are cast brass and machined then plated?

I don't have any spares or failed ones, but maybe I'll look some more, I guess in many cases the wear could be "hidden" and not seen until the gearbox was disassembled.

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I know we've debated this many times in the past, but just to throw out there that picking up power through any kind of bearing is a disaster waiting to happen, and in this case is made worse by small point load and high current. The resultant pitting would certainly accelerate the wear.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's why the "main" ball bearings are hybrids, and this small ball and spring was added. (for ball bearing neophytes, "hybrid" normally refers to the balls are made from a material different from the races, thus of "hybrid" construction. 

Completely agree... although normally you don't see pitting, it either seems to be ok, or destroyed like Chuck's pictures. 

This is also why the "ball bearing" pickup that is often touted on lit cars is really not a great idea. 

You and I are in agreement... and when people argue about ball bearings being a good idea for power pickup, I encourage them to call a ball bearing manufacturer, they WILL set them straight... 

The old sleeve bearing, or even carbon brushes actually work better, just more maintenance. (Yeah, I know, go battery power)... 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Ball bearing pickup on lit cars you can get away with because the current load is so small, but for something like a Dash-9 definitely a mistake. I like the carbon brushes and sliders that LGB uses--still the best method in my opinion, and maintenance is very simple.


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Oh boy, I got a loud used CN one now for my second one. I tore into it and to my surprise, all the gearing looked great. 
Trouble now is, I did not think to look at this surface on the axles. Might explain why I can feel it spins roughly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Noise can also be from misaligned motors. Try opening the block, pressing the motor "up" into the block, and hitting each of the motor brush stubs with the soldering iron... the rectangular slots on each side of the brick. 

Since the motors are soldered in place, they can be soldered in misaligned, thus making a lot of noise. You need a hot iron, and do both brushes on each motor. This has worked for me. 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks Greg, but I thought of that also. I actually have one motor removed anyways. The mechanism spins roughly when each one is out in my hands. I expected to see excessive gear wear like the USA problem. The plastic maybe tougher? Looks like the axles may need to be kept lubed. 
All these problems make me like the MTH design even more. They have sliders, spring loaded carbon wheel pickups, metal gears..... I think they know how to make their diesel engines run better and last longer. Now I can see where a new model might need some design changes or work. These other brands have been using their designs for awhile. I've heard of problems and I like the fact that Aristo stands behind their product with a good warranty. 
I think I'm going to buy more MTH G gauge myself. I will run these others as I like the variety. They seem to need to be kept up to stay in shape. When I'm pulling a hundred or near cars, I may have to watch how I load certain engines in the future. I bet with better greasing and maintenance, these other brands must hold up. There are a lot of customers running them. I won't add any extra weights. I even have exchanged out the axles w/tires from the older USAs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, I missed the part where you posted it spins roughly, of course that is the gearbox. 

It seems that it would be prudent to keep heavy oil (I think it stays in place better than grease in this situation) on the axles and watch for wear. 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

I just ordered some axle shafts for a dash 9. They were $1.44 each right on the site. I won't bother to figure out if this older CN is under warranty. I can use them as spares if they're not needed. It's tough to guess how a loco was treated by someone else. I'll watch my new one and see how it does. I'll try a heavy oil on the shafts. I've been using light weight thinking it was better than gumming up the axle for bad conductivity. 
I just ran a test without taking them apart again. Some of the axles aren't conducting well. I guess that might also show where to look. I was just thinking of adding USA style sprung brushes to the backside of the wheels???


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, LMAO..I just read your write up and it's all true...It's like Aristo thought of picking power from the rail as an after thought..You mean not everybody will run the TE & batteries??..LP speak..Lol You ever check the resistance from the wheels to the plugs?? Very high..it's a wonder any command system will work in that environment. 

As much as people complain about the sliders on USA drives they are fool proof and most of the time you can't see them...and they scrape the track clean!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, did you read the part about half the Mikado drivers having no pickup.... true. 

I'm guessing the original design picked up power through the ball bearing assemblies and then the started pitting the races... just conjecture on my part, but makes sense in the evolution of the drive. 

Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Enginear, the pressure of the single ball bearing on the axle is sufficient to "cut through" any oil or grease you could put on the axle... as partially evidenced by the wear pattern possible. 

Remember that the contact patch on a ball bearing is so small that the PSI is pretty darn high. 

The "heavy gear oil" from hob-e-lube or aero-car is good... stays on the axle and wicks into the space between the axle and ball bearing race. 

Greg


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

I've ordered the side wheel plungers from USA to use if the Aristo starts giving me troubles. so far so good.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you mean the carbon brush pickups they used on cabooses?


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