# LGB 65001 USA Steam Sound Install in Analog 2018D Mogul



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Update: Mogul sound install is complete and successful with the utilization of diodes soldered into a bridge to restrict motor voltage, thereby matching the pace of the tender's sound. Took a month of patience and on/off work and a couple dollars, (read: nearly $300) to retrofit a 1st gen LGB mogul into having a modern analog LGB 65001 sound system.






Proof of the fun and mayhem, after a lot of frustration, headscratching, finger burning and patient waiting for parts in the mail.

---
*
Greetings all. Recently I decided to purchase and try out LGB's USA steam sound unit to give my old 2018D mogul a voice instead of clicking along silently. As my first attempt with sound, and a non-DCC setup, I ordered the sound unit itself, the whistle/bell magnet detector, and four ball-bearing axles, which have all been wired together into the tender and as a standalone setup, work perfectly. All four tender axles deliver power to the tender's T-shaped board, and the sound unit feeds off of the voltage supplied through the factory pins and press-fit plugs. The sound is loud and works fine, however as I encountered, and read about in many places here on the internet, the Buehler motor of the mogul is so power-efficient that the sound system barely gets a chuff in while the locomotive is roaring along at a scale 20mph. A bit disappointing, initially.

To fix this, after some brainstorming, I decided it would be worth a try to wire in a 10 watt resister into one of the motor leads to slow down the locomotive. After initial failure with a 10ohm resistor, I stepped it up to 20ohms, only to realize that the locomotive was still picking up track power on its own through the sliding contacts and brass strips present in the chassis. After removing all track power pickup parts from the locomotive, it now is supplied power through the ball-bearing axles on the tender, and has so far proven to operate fine in this manner. After removing the contacts, the resistor was now doing its intended work, however 20ohms/10 watts still wasn't enough. Connecting the 20 and the prior 10 ohm resistors, for a total of 30ohms, now had the sound unit chuffing faster than the locomotive.

The sweet spot, 25ohms, seemed the likely candidate. The inevitable problem, however, is squeezing the darn thing into the chassis. I previously cut and drilled a small metal plate to act as a heat sink, and after ordering the resistor, began several hours of a quite troublesome head-scratching humdinger of an install, and in my folly of not ordering a spare, broke one of the wire leads off the resistor. I have however proven that the locomotive functions reasonably well versus the sound unit's speed, however before ordering another couple of 25ohm/10 watt resistors, I'm now wondering.

Is there a better way to go about this whole setup, as far as making the locomotive operate with reduced voltage to match the sound's factory speed? Am I going about some part of this completely wrong?

So far I've found very little information regarding putting sound in an analog locomotive, and I'd like to change this through my own experiences and provide information to others. If anyone can provide input, without automatically suggesting conversion to battery/DCC, please feel free to share. Any information would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Use diodes to drop the voltage, and you should be able to put the voltage dropping electronics on one motor lead.

If this loco has the motor directly connected to the track pickups, you need to interrupt that. I think it is not a good idea to power the entire loco from the tender, and also ball bearing wheels are not designed for high current.

Yes, I do understand that the LGB motors draw less current.

Remember you are now running the motor AND the sound unit from the tender.

Also, you may get some stalling if you bypass all the wheel and skate pickups on the loco itself.

Greg


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Use diodes to drop the voltage, and you should be able to put the voltage dropping electronics on one motor lead.
> 
> If this loco has the motor directly connected to the track pickups, you need to interrupt that. I think it is not a good idea to power the entire loco from the tender, and also ball bearing wheels are not designed for high current.
> 
> ...


Greg, thank you for your input. I have honestly been dubious about having the locomotive powered by the tender, and personally was not aware that ball bearing axles were not intended to power high current for a motor, so that's something learned right there.

Firstly, I am assuming you mean Zener diodes so the motor can see reverse voltage. What would be the basis of power rating/limiting? With zero resistance the buehler motor is able to move the locomotive between 4-5 volts, and the sound pops on around 9-10 volts. This was the reasoning for finding a resistor that makes the voltage levels meet in the middle.

I also am curious about having the locomotive being electronically separate from the tender, as in having the three-pin plug between them remaining disconnected so that the locomotive only sees power from its own driving wheels, and the tender only receives power from the ball-bearing axles underneath. Is there any wisdom in a setup like this?

This also brings to mind the physical power connections in the chassis - Will having one motor lead split with a diode still act upon the voltage being picked up physically? The motor is connected to the circuit board housed inside the boiler, but I am fairly certain that it will operate independently regardless of the board being present or not. This particular locomotive is a 1985 mogul, and it has brushes, brass strips and contact pins in the chassis moving electricity to the motor's contact tangs. No wires in the chassis until you get to the headlight leads and circuit board above.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, go to my site and search 'VOLTAGE DROPPER' and you can see it is done with ordinary diodes... and it will be easier to 'adjust' ...

yes, you have to break the connection to the motor in the motor block.

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I would put the engine power pickup back in use.
The outer pins on the motor block are the motor contacts and you can use diodes to drop the voltage on the outer lead.

The 2018D lgb engine has one rail tied to the motor and the other to the rear switch on the firebox.

So, the single pin on one side of the motor block is track and motor power. the dual set of pins are inner is track, outer is motor power. 
So, 2018D (and most other LGB engine connections are:
both blank track motor
4 wire motor blocks are:
Motor Track Track Motor (note USA trains is the same)

The FRR engines are track Motor Motor Track in the motor blocks (Chloe, olmana etc.)


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

This is why LGB offered a set of backup capacitors that helped keep the sound alive at slower voltages on not MTS layouts. They are a nice sound, but limited what you can control and quite expensive for what you get normally. Gregs idea for diodes to slow the motor down to allow the sound to be working is a good one. I will try that myself as I have the Euro steam sound unit kicking around here. Eventually I will have an engine I can fit it and the batteries in. My 2073d is full of batteries with no room for that sound unit. Mike


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The backup super caps do work for dirty track whether DC or DCC.
On older (pre 1995) LGB sound units they used a 9 volt battery!! (Moguls and 2080's for 2 models).


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Does anyone have a picture of the mods to "disconnect" the motor to track connection in an LGB block?

I should have taken one of the Fourney I had. It was done very simply with a sleeve of heat shrink over the connection. Easy, reversable. Then you add a wire from the motor, put your voltage dropper in it, and connect that to the track pickup.

Greg 1,184


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have seen finger nail polish and heat shrink used as an insulator, but reassembly of the block can create a connection of track to motor, therefore, I drill a hole in the corner where the single pin is located and cut the motor lead to disable any connection to the track pin. I solder a wire (with enough extra length to allow the motor block removal in the future) to the motor and run it through the hole I drilled.


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Greetings all, have been very pleased to see further responses on this matter. As of late I have restored the mogul's physical power pickup through the track and isolated the engine and tender electrically. The tender and its sound unit setup now receives all voltage through its ball bearing axles, and the locomotive operates independently with the motor feeding from the physical pickups on the rails. Upon testing I discovered it requires the circuit board in the cab to operate properly and cannot move without it, which in turn means the isolation switch on the backhead is still integral to the mogul's operation.

Now to the matter of resistors versus diodes. I researched Greg's voltage dropper setup, which curiously had no diagram aside from the regular full wave bridge, (whatever image for it is not there) and studied the other images several times. It strikes me as being curious for requiring a number of 0.7 volt diodes. Is there a specific need for so many smaller rating diodes, as opposed to fewer larger volt-limiting ones?


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

I've done a bit more reading on diode bridges/rectifiers and have come to find there are pre-fabricated parts that supposedly operate in the same manner as an array of diodes. Unless I am confused and/or mistaken, would it be easier to implement a readily-made part, rated for the operational voltage, into the locomotive's wiring setup? I'm sure the manner of fine-tuning with individual diodes would be lost in exchange for simplicity, but is this a feasible option?

From further reading it appears that pre-fabbed diode bridges are rated much higher than the locomotive will ever see. Perhaps diodes truly are the way to go. My next question now is what specifications am I looking for exactly when I go to purchase diodes? Are the ratings on them suggesting the maximum voltage they can handle? Silicon rectifier diodes seem to be the standard option, but i'd like to know what to look for before blindly buying anything.


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

The saga continues, hooray.

Testing the 25ohm resistor with an isolated motor lead still proves mostly fruitless, as the locomotive moves forward slower and is better-synced with the sound. Reverse, however, and the locomotive bogs down badly, to the point of the engine and tender drawing 22 volts, the sound unit roaring with chuffs, and the locomotive crawling along at a snails pace without even having the self weight of the boiler and its massive weight saddled upon it.

This is the point I grudgingly admit that resistors are not the ideal option for this. Aside from the concerning amount of heat produced by their designed function, it is properly functional in one polarity, and then overly restrictive with the other.

The next step is now to try a diode bridge. And at the moment I have no idea what type of diodes to purchase. So now I wait, and continue to research.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, voltage will be much higher than you need, anything 50v or better is fine, go by the amps.

Resistors work the same in "either direction" so you have something else wrong if the loco runs faster in one direction.

I think you better start from the beginning and get the loco running right with no mods and turn off the sound for now.

Greg

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Resistors by themselves are not great for constant voltage drops as the changing current load will change the amount of voltage drop.
Engines will draw more current on curves and inclines than a straight track and less current when going downhill or slowing down. Thus the voltage drop at the resistor will keep changing.
OTOH diodes will give a constant voltage drop regardless of the changing current.


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Story still continues. Ordered a pack of 1N4001 diodes rated for 1 amp, and upon soldering four together in a diode bridge, it turns out as a unit, they drop 0.7 volts. Doubling up to eight resulted in a 1.4 volt drop. Linear, but at only 0.175 volts eaten per diode... Certainly not enough when the goal is to lose 6 volts.

After initial testing with just a volt meter, I read that I may be getting an inaccurate reading with the volt meter sipping a tiny amount of the voltage, and the current running across the diode bridge having no actual place to go to utilize its design potential. Therefore I took the buehler motor out of the locomotive's chassis, and tested it with and without the diode bridge in the circuit, with zero physical resistance to the motor's shafts.

Without the bridge, the motor was at spinning at 11.5 volts at half throttle. With the bridge, right around 8.5. An appreciable visible drop in voltage, yes, but still only half of the goal of dropping 6 volts, and still with eight total diodes soldered into the bridge assembly. The quest now is to acquire diodes properly rated for dropping 0.7 volts each. That way having eight in a bridge will bring down 5.6 volts, much closer to the intended goal.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Why did you pick 1 amp diodes? 2 amp would be better.

The picture above is a full wave bridge rectifier and 4 diodes...

that's 6 drops from 4 diodes and a bridge. (works in both current directions.

Much more efficient than your strings of diodes. (would take 12 diodes your way).

You need a bridge and 10 diodes. 12 * .7 = 8.4 volts right?

Greg


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Deleted...


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Victory*

FINALLY some great news in the sound install department. I received a packet of 3 amp diodes, much more capable than the tiny 1 amp ones I had previously purchased, and went to work soldering them into a diode bridge assembly, albeit squashed lengthwise to accommodate into the internal spaces of the locomotive.










Squiggly ugly mayhem, albeit functional after patching the assembly into the connection to the motor lead, and creatively routing power to the motor with the same contact pin with the top bent, allowing the original contact sleeve to attach to the pin like normal.










One of the screw holes for the chassis' cover plate was sacrificed for a place for the wiring to go. Also visible is prior evidence of drilling for the failed resistor attempt.










After testing and making sure all works well together, the diode assembly was mummified into a bundle of electrical tape, avoiding any possible shorts with the circuit board in the cab nearby. The diode bridge essentially sits upright within the boiler, up towards the steam dome, and between the metal weight inside and the circuit board, straddled by the headlight leads. After final reassembly, it was a tight fit, but the engine came back together and all wiring remained functional, hidden inside.

Now onto the tender.










After drilling holes for the speaker, the tender trucks were outfitted with a full compliment of four brand new LGB ball bearing axles, along with the 65012 whistle/bell magnet detector on the front truck.










Inside is a bundle of wire leads coming from all four axles, which combine into a single set of wires that go into the speaker. Also present is the volume dial, which I cut short underneath so it doesn't protrude obnoxiously out under the chassis.










The locomotive and tender are electronically isolated, having had the three pin cable and plug tucked into the firebox out of sight. The tender is fed by its own four axles going straight to the sound unit, and the mogul picks up power off all three driving axles, which is limited by the diode bridge array to slow the locomotive to match the sound unit's chuff speed.

The result of all this madness and tomfoolery?






Overall success.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I always keep all the power pickups tied together on the moguls as only one wheel and shoe pick up power on the engine. Tires are insulators!!!
On other engines I always add a car with power pickup and I get much smoother running by doing this (read stripped gears can occur from power interruptions).


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

Dan Pierce said:


> I always keep all the power pickups tied together on the moguls as only one wheel and shoe pick up power on the engine. Tires are insulators!!!
> On other engines I always add a car with power pickup and I get much smoother running by doing this (read stripped gears can occur from power interruptions).


There are brass strips that rest across all three axles in the chassis, and I added a third pair of brushes to the middle axle. The locomotive should be more than capable of operating as a standalone unit. The engine and tender can't be electrically connected because the diodes will dumb down the voltage in the entire circuit of engine and tender together, lowering the voltage to the sound unit which goes against the desired operation of the entire project...


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When installing the brush type power pickups on the mogul center axle, you increased the wear on the side rods as the center wheel is driven only by the plastic side rod.
Of course these can be replaced, Trainli has these as a stocked item.


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

*restoring more blitzkreiged images*

FINALLY some great news in the sound install department. I received a packet of 3 amp diodes, much more capable than the tiny 1 amp ones I had previously purchased, and went to work soldering them into a diode bridge assembly, albeit squashed lengthwise to accommodate into the internal spaces of the locomotive.










Squiggly ugly mayhem, albeit functional after patching the assembly into the connection to the motor lead, and creatively routing power to the motor with the same contact pin with the top bent, allowing the original contact sleeve to attach to the pin like normal.










One of the screw holes for the chassis' cover plate was sacrificed for a place for the wiring to go. Also visible is prior evidence of drilling for the failed resistor attempt.










After testing and making sure all works well together, the diode assembly was mummified into a bundle of electrical tape, avoiding any possible shorts with the circuit board in the cab nearby. The diode bridge essentially sits upright within the boiler, up towards the steam dome, and between the metal weight inside and the circuit board, straddled by the headlight leads. After final reassembly, it was a tight fit, but the engine came back together and all wiring remained functional, hidden inside.

Now onto the tender.










After drilling holes for the speaker, the tender trucks were outfitted with a full compliment of four brand new LGB ball bearing axles, along with the 65012 whistle/bell magnet detector on the front truck.










Inside is a bundle of wire leads coming from all four axles, which combine into a single set of wires that go into the speaker. Also present is the volume dial, which I cut short underneath so it doesn't protrude obnoxiously out under the chassis.










The locomotive and tender are electronically isolated, having had the three pin cable and plug tucked into the firebox out of sight. The tender is fed by its own four axles going straight to the sound unit, and the mogul picks up power off all three driving axles, which is limited by the diode bridge array to slow the locomotive to match the sound unit's chuff speed.

The result of all this madness and tomfoolery?






Overall success.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Success is sweet isn't it?

Interesting that you added more diodes to the bridge, than just increasing the center section. Your method uses a few more diodes than is necessary, but it works!

Greg 854


----------



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This seems to be a lot of work when you could have chosen a sound system with a contact to trigger chuff, Accurate at any speed or voltage.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We never were told the reasons to select this particular sound unit, but fitting the chuff sensor is not fun.. I don't think this loco had one built in.

Greg 849


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The 2018 LGB mogul only had a 3 pin connector that was used for track power and rear light.
Rear axle would not have the chuff sensor and PC board did not have the etch/wiring for the 3 wires for the chuff sensor.

Personally I would have opted for a digital decoder for the $$ spent as you would get more features such as chuff controlled by back emf not voltage. However, phoenix does have great American engine sounds!!


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

A chuff sensor needn't be fitted to the drivers. Yes, that's how you get it 100% quartered, but often there's no room to do so. It's very simple to put magnets on the backside of a tender wheel and trigger the chuff with a magnetic reed switch mounted to the truck. Measure the diameter of the tender wheels and the diameter of the loco drivers. If it's closer to a 4:3 ratio, then use three magnets on the tender wheel to get you close to 4 chuffs per revolution. If it's closer to 2:1 (4:2), then use 2 magnets. You can also change the diameter of the tender wheel slightly to bring things closer to accurate if you're particularly OCD about that. 

Even if the mogul was the version with the built-in chuff trigger, LGB's trigger only gives you 2 chuffs per revolution, not 4. If you wanted a more prototypical chuff rate, you'd be installing your own triggers anyway.

Later,

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's only close, and with the sophistication of today's autochuff (not this LGB system), many people are going autochuff as opposed to a trigger, magnets, extra work, etc.

Any way, we are all speculating about why and how.

Greg 846


----------



## Sampug394 (Dec 30, 2010)

My reason for the LGB sound system was the relative ease of plug and play, and liking the sounds it made. Regardless of the work with the diodes, the sound unit and magnet detector and power pickup with the ball bearings was all fairly easy to put together since it was an LGB product going into an LGB product. Even though the mogul was made in 1985, the modern sound system essentially plugged right in.

Regarding Phoenix and others, I did take them into consideration, but they seemed somewhat pricey, especially considering the cost for just the sound library software alone. I've operated LGB locomotives with sound and magnet reeds and such, with the chuff detector and magnets on tender wheels as you guys have all mentioned, so do I understand the caveats to those.

In the end, I made the LGB system work, and the locomotive still functions well. It runs slower with the voltage drop, yes, but to me, an 1890s narrow gauge mogul isn't going to be running fast too often anyway.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly, when you actually calculate the scale speed, most people are very surprised how fast they were running.

A number of the diesels will run almost 150 scale miles per hour.

I recently went on a train pulled by a Shay in Colorado (Georgetown loop) and I thought we were going 15 mph, but we were going 6-8.

Greg 842


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> It's only close, and with the sophistication of today's autochuff (not this LGB system), many people are going autochuff...


You'll get no disagreement from me with respect to the latest generation of DCC decoders and the quality of the BEMF-calibrated chuff software. I've taken full advantage of it in my recent large scale and On30 installs. The accuracy of today's latest decoders is a dramatic difference over what "used to be," so much so that Soundtraxx has abandoned offering an external trigger on their decoders, and users haven't complained one bit! Alas, such decoders are only one segment of the sound products being used, so "close enough" with magnetic, mechanical, or optical triggers will have to count for many modelers. 

You bring up an interesting point about speed, and how we determine how fast is "too fast." How much is visual as opposed to aural (especially with respect to steam locos). We've all seen LGB moguls running around railroads at seemingly break-neck speeds, while the chuffs are clearly delineated. The mogul (like the Bachmann 4-6-0 and other locos) only have 2 chuff events per revolution. The result is a loco that _sounds _like it's going half as fast as it really is. One has to wonder whether the operator would run at slower speeds with the prototypically-accurate 4 chuffs per revolution. 

In my experience, folks who--like me--are particularly OCD about sound and wanting things completely prototypical are very much in the minority. I've had visitors ask me why my locomotive is not chuffing as it's drifting down the hill or pulling into a station. It doesn't matter to them that it's behaving 100% prototypically; to them, steam locos need to chuff. 

When you put sound in that context, "close enough" from a tender-wheel-mounted chuff contact is most certainly acceptable to many, and even the less-consistent voltage-controlled chuff is perfectly agreeable to some. Alas for me, that knowledge and rationalization still does nothing for the nervous twitches I get when I watch a YouTube video of a loco with noticeably out-of-sync chuffs.  

Later,

K


----------



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

LOL, I have had the same comments at shows where I am running live steam. I will close the throttle and coast into the station. So the exhaust goes quiet and you mostly hear the valve gear and wheels on rail. So many modelers today have never been around a real full size live steamer that is in full steam. To get to see how the real one behaves when taking off, slowing down, coasting the varying degree of "chuff" depending what the train is doing as it travels along the line. Its all lost on so many younger modelers now. All they know is diesels and that steam engines should "chuff". Mike


----------

