# Confused on size of Shay



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I have the Bachmann 2 truck Shay and 2-8-0 Connie, among others. So on a recent visit to Portland OR, one of my stops was to see the Shay at their park, Peggy as I recall. Standing there looking at her, she just seemed much smaller than I expected. We had taken the Cumbres trip a while back and as I remembered it, that 2-8-0 was much bigger in person than what I was feeling looking at Peggy. Yet on my Bachmann's when set side by side, the Shay is bigger. Since they are both 1.20 scale, I was expecting the Shay to be much bigger in person, based on my recollection of how I felt size wise when we took the Cumbres trip and now in person looking at the Shay. So why is my Bachmann Shay bigger than my Bachmann Connie? Where am I off?


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

The Bachmann Connie is a small loco and from memory actually based on a 30 inch gauge loco. Where the loco you saw at Crumbres would have been of a larger prototype. For example a D&RGW C-25 is a 'bigger' 2-8-0 than the Bachmann Connie, its a bit longer and has a bigger boiler.

I can't comment on exactly how to scale both Bachmann locos are, But I think they are near spot on scale??? 

Alan


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Think of Shay as a Brand not a model like Ford is a brand with several models. 
Shay is a design with the pistons and drive train hanging on the side. 
The first ones were dinky and the last huge. 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

John is correct. Shays and Connies came in all sizes. Both were produced for narrow gauge and standard gauge railroads. We would need to know the specific model number and RR of the engines you are asking about. The D&RGW had C-16, 18, 19, 21, and 25. They were all different sizes. Inside and outside framed. Most of the 1:20.3 engines that I know of are accurate for the engine being modeled. The only one I know of that is not quite correct is the original Bachmann Connie 2-8-0. From what I have heard their latest C-19 is spot on. Does the CATS have any Cs? I thought all their locomotives were Ks. Chuck PS as I remember, the K-37s, D&RGWs largest narrow gauge locomotives, were made, rebuilt, from standard gauge 2-8-0s.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Everything depends on the size of the prototype. All of these locos are accurately scaled in 1:20.3 for their prototype. (Technically, the 2-8-0 is accurately-sized in 1:20.3 for the 30" gauge prototype upon which it was based, but with the gauge widened 6") 

Later, 

K


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)




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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey:

According to a CATS web site , all of their steam locomotives are Ks (classes 27, 36, and 37) . I can't find any mention of Connies. Therefore, the engines you saw (Mikados, 2-8-2) were among the largest NG engines on the D&RGW. 

Chuck


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee Whizz Andrew. 

Pic was taken at Edaville nearly 30 years ago. They had a lot of neat stuff there once upon a time. 

You must archive the pics I take of "stuff". I would have had to go searching my website to find it.  
Maybe I should set up a page of pics I have taken over the years.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Makes more sense now. I just thought I remembered our trips sit being a 280 but obviously it was a 282. I guess my expectations were off and was expecting the in person Shay to be so much bigger like it is in my Bachmann's. So does anyone have a side by side pic of the Bachmann Shay and K27 together?


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Jul 2013 07:04 PM 









Everything depends on the size of the prototype. All of these locos are accurately scaled in 1:20.3 for their prototype. (Technically, the 2-8-0 is accurately-sized in 1:20.3 for the 30" gauge prototype upon which it was based, but with the gauge widened 6") 

Later, 

K 

So what are these 3


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Not quirte a side by side but maybe it helps.










TOM


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tony, you left it at Bachmann's site. I just borrowed it.







There is also another one you took there too. 
It looks just like the Bachmann model we all know! 
It is a good picture though, before it was restored still with headlight in front of the smokebox.
There are a few B&W images when it was still in Mexico I found on the web some time ago. 

Andrew


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Tom. So I planned my layout head clearance with the Shay in mind. As I recall it has like 8.5" so I always round it to 9". The Connie has 7", so what does the K27 have? And how are side to side clearances compared to either Connie or Shay?


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## TOM_1/20.3 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi, 
Both the Bachmann and the Accucraft K27's need a minimum of 8 1/2 inches from the base (lower surface i.e. tabletop) of the track (LGB) to the top of the smokestack. 
TOM


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey:

I just found Peggy on the web. She is a 42 ton standard gauge two truck Shay. The Bachmann two truck Shays are 36 and 38 tons and narrow gauge. 

PEGGY 

I will try to take some pictures this afternoon or tomorrow morning of my Bachmann Shay, Connie (original) and K-27. 

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are pictures of my Bachmann Shay, Connie (original) and K-27. The widest spot on the K is the top of the plow. It is about 6.5". I get about 6.25" across the cylinders.




























Chuck

The K-27 is the shortest of the Ks.

Here are the lengths of some of the D&RGW steamers (Front couple face to tender coupler face).

C-16: 49' 6 1/8"

C-19: 51' 2 5/8"

C-21: 55' 0 1/8"

K-27: 58' 9 5/8"

K-28: 62' 9 1/2"

K-36: 68' 0 3/4"

K-37: 65' 2 15/16"

The engines you saw at Chama are close to 10' longer than the K-27 modeled by Bachmann. That would make a 1:20.3 model of the K-36 you saw at Chama about 6" longer that your K-27.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Just out of curiosity I thought that I would compare the Connie with my C-19 (Accucraft).  They are very similar in overall length, but the boiler is longer and the pilot deck is shorter on the C-19.  The rear of the cab roofs are lined up so we can see the difference in the smoke box pilot area.
 
 







 
 
 
Chuck


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

K-37 (Accucraft) 
outside frame 2-8-0 (Bachmann) 
Forney (Mostly scratchbuilt on Accucraft "Ruby" 0-4-0 boiler/chassis) 

Later, 

K


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By chuck n on 05 Jul 2013 08:47 AM 
Mickey:
 
I just found Peggy on the web.  She is a 42 ton standard gauge two truck Shay.  The Bachmann two truck Shays are 36 and 38 tons and narrow gauge.  
 
PEGGY 
 
I will try to take some pictures this afternoon or tomorrow morning of my Bachmann Shay, Connie (original) and K-27.   
 
Chuck 


So she should be bigger than the Bachmann version? Head scratching confusing....it looks like the difference is not much in height but in length, especially with the tender, I'm assuming for he longer hauls?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Here's where G scales get in the way... 

Bachmanns will look bigger because it's 3' between the rails, While Peggy is Standard ga. or 4' 8 1/2" between the rails. Narrow ga. feet are bigger than Standad ga. feet on the same track. 

In reality Peggy would be bigger; approx 2' wider .... 

Heavier loco weights result in greater pulling power. 

John


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Here's a photo illustrating the size differences between standard and narrow gauge equipment. 










Typically, narrow gauge equipment is around 3/4 the size of its standard-gauge counterpart. 

Later, 

K


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a book on *West Virginia Railroads, Volume5: Geared Logging Locomotives* by Thomas W. Dixon. He has tables for most of the specifications of Shay locomotives. Under the Class B (which includes our Bachmann (narrow gauge) at 36 tons and Peggy (standard gauge) at 42 tons) he shows the wheel base, but not the length. I have calculated what the lengths of the wheel bases for these engines would be in our three common scales (1:20.3' 1:29, and 1:32). For the sake of comparison I measured the wheel base of my Bachmann at 15.75".


Class B Shays 
Wheel base (ft) Weight (tons) 1:1 (feet) 1:20.3 (inches) NG 1:29 (inches) SG 1:32 (inches) SG 36 (Bachmann)
26.42 15.62 10.93 9.91 42 (Peggy)
28.5 16.85 11.79 10.69 
Note: All but the 42 ton in 1:20.3 would run on our 45mm track.
There were 7 weights of Class B Shays made: 24, 28, 32, 36, 42, 50, and 60 tons.

Chuck


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I guess where I'm hung up is I thought the Connie was a 'big' engine, so when I have the model of the two side by side and the Shay is bigger (not length but height) and I finally get to see one in person, I was just let down. Part of it is obviously I was screwed up in thinking the Cumbres engine was a Connie and it is really a much bigger K27. The reason I got the Connie was because the family did a couple trips and it was to be a reminder. I guess I missed the 2 wheels under the cab. Gonna have to go back and review family pics now. Now knowing Peggy is not only heavier but also standard guage (which is 25% larger), I guess if I saw the Bachman version in person, I would really be surprised at the smallness.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mickey, this is a learning process. When I started on narrow gauge 45 years ago, I thought all Ks were the same. At that time I was into HOn3. I thought all Ks had a doghouse on the tender. i was upset when i bought one and there wasn't a dog house. Over the ensuing years I have read, watched, and learned. Give it time, you'll learn too. The Ks are bigger than Connies, which are bigger than Moguls, which are bigger than Porters. Buy engines and cars that you like and appeal to you. You are the only one you have to please. Ask questions. That is one of the reasons we are here. Chuck


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

The only Connie that has run on the Cumbres in recent years that I know of is the 315 that was rebuilt in Durango and currently resides in Silverton. It has run on the Cumbres for special occasions.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By placitassteam on 07 Jul 2013 11:14 AM 
The only Connie that has run on the Cumbres in recent years that I know of is the 315 that was rebuilt in Durango and currently resides in Silverton. It has run on the Cumbres for special occasions. Winn,

I beilieve a Connie was out at the Colorado Railroad Museum a couple of weeks ago, for Wild West Weekend. I saw it on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Group site. It was numbered #40 and I was shocked to see it! It had the distinctive counter-balances of a Connie! I had to go back again to take a closer look at the video. Here's a link to the article. The video is linked in this post. 

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read...msg-243557


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Chuck and all, thanks for feedback. Yep learning and beginning to understand more.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gary, that's former Georgetown Loop #40, which--if I recall correctly--came from Mexico (but don't quote me). It lives at the museum for now along with the Shays that used to run over the Loop. Nice-looking loco, and the B'mann loco would make a great starting point for a conversion. 

Later, 

K


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin,

Thanks for the info on #40. That video was the first time I've seen that engine. It really surprised me to see how close the Connie resembled this engine.


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