# Accucraft Mannin



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

So I had spent a good portion of Sunday tearing into my brand new Mannin to correct all the bent and misaligned parts. Cab to boiler had a 5mm gap, gas tank pushed through the floor, cab pipework on a great angle due to the boiler being slope back. When apart I also saw 3 missing floor mounting bolts. Also I didnt like the insulation sticking out of the giant boiler cutout. Which was unnecessarily cutout to me. Once aligned and the reachrod trimmed to the retaining nut there was no more 6mm of thead sticking out and nothing to interfere on the boiler. 

Before and after photos. 

This weekend I will steamup. I also installed my gas and steam valves. On the gas I had to finish tapping the tank as the adapter didnt initally thread in all the way. 

Just happened that duplicolor sanding primer and a clearcoat is a very good match.

I also went today and repainted the buffers Signal Red, never liked the Chinese Orange Red. Lots of masking as the buffers are welded on Stainless Steel. Just waiting for the bolts to cure along with the wheel guards.

I did go over all of this with Accucraft as the QC was missed as all of this is assembly not shipping. Once corrected its alot better, but the fix is not an easy one to tear this apart. You can push the floor up from underneath to correct that BUT my boiler mounting post still needed 1.5mm of washers on the post to bring the boiler all the way to level. the fuel tank bend, thats only possible to repair with the body and tank off. 

While open I put mesh in the burner, added my gas and steam valves too. I also put a new throttle handle in as I dont like the window ones. Plus with the boiler level the OE handle interfered with the cab opening.

This weekend I get to run it. Will also bring the Caledonia or Pevril too. Its going to be a Manx weekend! Guess I need to build up my DJB Coach kits for a proper train for the Mannin!


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Kovacjr said:


> So I had spent a good portion of Sunday tearing into my brand new Mannin to correct all the bent and misaligned parts. Cab to boiler had a 5mm gap, gas tank pushed through the floor, cab pipework on a great angle due to the boiler being slope back. When apart I also saw 3 missing floor mounting bolts. Also I didnt like the insulation sticking out of the giant boiler cutout. Which was unnecessarily cutout. Once aligned and the reachrod trimmed to the retaining nut there was no more 6mm of thead sticking out and nothing to interfere on the boiler......
> 
> ......On the gas I had to finish tapping the tank as the adapter didnt initally thread in all the way........
> 
> ...


This is all further evidence of just how difficult it has become to operate the old business model of high quality low cost production in modern-day China.

I don't *want* to say I told you so - but here's what I said back in February .....



John 842 said:


> ...........In spite of manufacturers commitment to improve quality control, I see evidence that it is becoming more dependant on which country commissions models from China and how determined the 'middle men' are in ensuring that standards are maintained. In the case of one well known brand I've seen quality decline noticeably in the last couple of years in their UK and Australian markets, whilst dealer margins have contracted and they've had to raise prices and come up with more 'inovative' ways to shift unsatisfactory stock.
> 
> *For me, the situation has got to the point where I cannot rely on previously reliable Chinese suppliers and I will only make future purchases, whether new or second hand, if I can see the actual model and in the case of locomotives, see them running first. *
> 
> Unless of course, they are actually *made* in the UK or Germany ....


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John, the thing is that you have not 'told us' anything that we (or me myself) did not know before. I have a fair number of US and UK and German live steamers and I have not noticed any systematic dependence of problems on the region. That quality control is not perfect has been known for years, and various models had various 'issues' with them. Why this is so, I do not know, my only guess is that these toys are hand made by people who make mistakes. They are also made at lowest possible cost, so that we can actually buy them and play. If they were to be produced in the UK or Germany with the same level of detail, etc, they would have to cost more. I for one am glad that there are still people somehow managing to produce these models at the prices they ask, be it Accucraft or Roundhouse. Roundhouse stunned us with their Garratt a couple of years ago, and they have been releasing a new model or two every year for the past one and a half decade. This is simply amazing, Accucraft released models which 20 years ago were only a dream. Even with the 'issues' several suffered from, this is a remarkable achievement. I do hope that Accucraft is still capable of stunning us with QC on their future products. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Very ture Zubi, case in point th eMasonbogie when all said you wont get them to build it. Its too complicated. then the Decauville, when I was told by some that its too small and you cant pull it off. Guess they were all wrong.

Still prices have to be lower to be affordable and not all these problems stem from being cheap.

We will see.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Kovacjr said:


> Still prices have to be lower to be affordable and not all these problems stem from being cheap.


i woulnt consider 1,950 cheap. for that price i would expect a model to be 100% perfect


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I just read something I had no idea happens. When it gets really hot out did you know that **** roaches start flying looking for a new home or food. I had no idea. I guess you call that a factoid?


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> I just read something I had no idea happens. When it gets really hot out did you know that **** roaches start flying looking for a new home or food. I had no idea. I guess you call that a factoid?


To answer your question - I think that would indeed be a factoid - but for the life of me I can't see it's relavance to the subject of this thread?

I suppose if you really want to divert the thread in some totally random direction - we could reflect on the sensitivity of the software that will not allow us the use of a word like **** by itself - but *will* allow it if we combine it with some other word like cockroach ....


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

zubi said:


> John, the thing is that you have not 'told us' anything that we (or me myself) did not know before.


I agree that a lot of us have already worked this out for ourselves - but equally I would say there are many more people out there who haven't yet realised just what is happening here.



> I have a fair number of US and UK and German live steamers and I have not noticed any systematic dependence of problems on the region.


I would agree, I can't see any correlation between the problems and their geographic location in the case of US, UK and German builders. However, in the case of Chinese builders, I think it's not so much the geographic location that corelates with the problems - but it's more to do with the relative size of the markets.

In the case of the US - which is the biggest market for the Chinese - the defect rate is still being held at a commendably low level. However, this is being achieved at the cost of a defect rate that rises as the size of the markets abroad decrease. 



> That quality control is not perfect has been known for years, and various models had various 'issues' with them. Why this is so, I do not know, my only guess is that these toys are hand made by people who make mistakes. They are also made at lowest possible cost, so that we can actually buy them and play.


No - the reason is not because these 'toys' are made by hand - Chinese hands have been making us superb, museum quality models for years and at unbelievably low prices - the reason that they can't continue to do so is that the world has moved on and it just simply is no longer economically possible. 



> If they were to be produced in the UK or Germany with the same level of detail, etc, they would have to cost more. I for one am glad that there are still people somehow managing to produce these models at the prices they ask


Well they certainly would have cost more in the past - but with the rise of the global economy, models made anywhere are trending towards parity in terms of cost. 



> Roundhouse stunned us with their Garratt a couple of years ago, and they have been releasing a new model or two every year for the past one and a half decade. This is simply amazing,


That's not really so amazing - Roundhouse have been plugging away for years, slowly building their enviable reputation for customer service, quality and inovative design (just look at their FG burner and their unique water level gauge). All the time they were battling the headwinds of unfavorable wage competion from the Chinese. Now, after all their efforts and with the steady demise of unfair competion from abroad, they've reached the 'broad sunlit uplands' of live steam model building in England. Consequently they are now able to produce much larger and more sophisticated models and with their superb Garratt I think we have seen just the beginning of great things to come.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

How is the K1 you paid a deposit for yonks ago coming along Chris? 
Me still no see a development model running up the track.

Andrew


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

zubi said:


> [...] I have a fair number of US and UK and German live steamers and I have not noticed any systematic dependence of problems on the region. That quality control is not perfect has been known for years, and various models had various 'issues' with them. [...]


John, all the models I refer to in the sentence above have been made by Accucraft in China. What I mean is, models commissioned by Accucraft US, UK and Germany... I do not see any pattern or correlation. In fact every single model is an individual story - sometimes more successful sometimes less. I did receive perfect models, and total unusable scrap metal. But absolute majority had some issues, mostly of cosmetic nature, often involving transport damages. Yes, there is scope for improvement of QC at Accucraft. The recent case of Mannin illustrates this need by a relatively small cosmetic assembly problem which is fixable, but should not have happened. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

John 842 said:


> That's not really so amazing - Roundhouse have been plugging away for years, slowly building their enviable reputation for customer service, quality and inovative design (just look at their FG burner and their unique water level gauge). All the time they were battling the headwinds of unfavorable wage competion from the Chinese. Now, after all their efforts and with the steady demise of unfair competion from abroad, they've reached the 'broad sunlit uplands' of live steam model building in England. Consequently they are now able to produce much larger and more sophisticated models and with their superb Garratt I think we have seen just the beginning of great things to come.


John, I also hope there will be great things to come. Although I would not say that this is just the beginning, as I wrote some time ago, we have been fortunate to witness 'golden age' of live steam. I do not know how long you have been in the hobby, but you seem to remember FG burner coming out. Noone absolutely noone in their right mind would ask for a Garratt from Roundhouse back in 1995. Back then, it would be considered 'unrealistically optimistic' or 'completely insane' to say that almost every single landmark US narrow gauge prototype including complete K-series, that models such as NGG15 and NG15, Saxony range, nearly all Welsh, Manx and UK narrow gauge or Australian NA would be produced by Accucraft. I think we _have_seen_ great_things, although I do hope there is more to come. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris, Mannin has only just been delivered a week or so ago to those not in the UK.
It is also fine for Accucraft UK to say it is an easy fix which they can do or replace faulty stock but who will foot the $200 each way shipping charges across continents? It is often more feasible to just fix it yourself. It is not the type of job the average person is capable of doing either. 

I expect new things I pay for to be in a perfectly new condition. Is Accucraft becoming the new Bachmann where it is the norm to have to disassemble and repair new items? Customers would freak if that was how things were for other merchandise. I have no regrets about purchasing Accucraft products. I'm just telling the facts of the matter regarding the outcome from the producers. There is a false economy in the customer having to completely disassemble and repair a product because the factory worker saved a few minutes. They have a QC problem they need to address and I'm happy to pay the extra few bucks. 

Andrew


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

zubi said:


> John, all the models I refer to in the sentence above have been made by Accucraft in China. What I mean is, models commissioned by Accucraft US, UK and Germany... I do not see any pattern or correlation. In fact every single model is an individual story - sometimes more successful sometimes less. I did receive perfect models, and total unusable scrap metal. But absolute majority had some issues, mostly of cosmetic nature, often involving transport damages. Yes, there is scope for improvement of QC at Accucraft. The recent case of Mannin illustrates this need by a *relatively small cosmetic assembly problem* which is fixable, but should not have happened. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


Zubi - We are not talking about 'relatively small assembly problems'. these are serious issues like - the ones that are the subject of this thread - the welded buffer beams, incorrect positioning of the lubricator, and the non-functioning water gauge on my NA - the whole cylinder/running board/valence interface issue on the Tornado - these are design and production issues that principaly affect models that are, as you say, commissioned by foreign affiliates of Accucraft US.

I do not believe these kinds of problems are allowed to occur so frequently on models commissioned by the US parent company for the all important home market. Can you imagine a thread like this one being started for the Big Boy - I think not so likely. 

I guess what I'm saying is, that it's my perception that the amount of resources that are put into the whole business of designing, producing and marketing a model - including the all important quality control - are proportional to the size of the ultimate market place. This is not surprising and it seems to me to be just good business practice. The fundamental problem is the pressure being put on the availability of *all* these resources by changing global trading conditions.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> I am mystified...
> 
> 
> Chris Scott


 Chris, As I stated this is my personal locomotive NOT a customers, nor do I need to have someone else fix for me as I am more than capable. I chose to go above and beyond to make it like the real locomotive being I saw it in person back in April. Like repainting the buffers to a Signal Red, I also replaced the chain and hooks with my own IOM parts. Its comments like yours that I really dont bother much to even post here anymore what I build and work on.


Since you want to beat the horse even more here it is.

As to the damaged floors and crooked boilers on the couple I had, this was brought up by me to Ian weeks ago and I was told at that time only mine were affected. I had 5 or 6 here that had various bends in the floor. Some better some worse and I walked one customer through correcting one out west. As I had opened a few here for inspection prior to delivering them as I was instruced by a a friend across the way to check the ones here as his was bent. I knew then and spoke to Rob and Cliff about it. This was right before NSS. Cliff was aware and we discussed the issue. 

It wasnt until this past weekend that I had the chance to take mine and fix it. So why now, because I have a ton of stuff on my plate and wanted to have it ready for a steamup on Friday. 

I now have it repaired and it will go just fine with my other IOM locomotives. 

For more than 15 years MLS has been a place to post your corrections and changes to your stuff you buy or build. So why has this been any different? Only difference here is I bought this locomotive while being a dealer. 

Its a fairly simple explanation and how to for others that may have the same issue on how to fix a simple thing as Zubi point out. If the customer doesnt want to tackle that can always have Accucraft fix and the only cost is return shipping. This avoids that and gives you the satifaction that you can do it yourself. Eventually something may break and you then know how to take something apart. A far better learing expirence than just having someone else fix it for you. 


Also I also pointed out after getting into it, you can push the floor up from the bottom on the boiler post to level the boiler. But cant get is 100% 

As to replacement for a bent floor, well there are none in the US here for replacement, and Im pretty sure you know this as you called Cliff about my post im almost certian and then the fact as they are sold out. Only stock is some sitting in UK dealers inventory. 

Chris, what about Andrews post on the Mannin too, same as mine and he also posted how he repaired his too. SO the real question is why me, why is my repair uncalled for in your eyes. Its fixed and cost me only my time and some paint and with no chance of damage in transit repacking 2 more times and shipping 2 more times.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is the final outfome of the Mannin. All ready for Ron Browns memorial steamup on Friday. Now to build up my DJB coach kits.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

jason, that engine is another fine example of your work.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason;
Please accept my apology I should not have posted the comments about your Mannin repairs.

If I'd wanted to deliver that message to you it should only have been by personal contact, a phone call or face to face; that is the only fair means. Writing does not provide an avenue for you or anyone to immediately and directly respond.

But in further hindsight I should not have and wish I had not delivered the message I did in any form.

I hope you will accept my apology.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i contacted dwight to please fix this thread before it got out of hand. i see he took care of it by deleting the irrelevant posts. i am glad you apologised chris, and now it appears everything is fine... i hope


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## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

Kovacjr said:


> Here is the final outfome of the Mannin. All ready for Ron Browns memorial steamup on Friday. Now to build up my DJB coach kits.


Jason, it looks like you fixed all the problems that it had. In it's final (repaired) form, it's a really nice looking locomotive. And I think the painted buffers do look better--I think that the whole locomotive would look better a little redder/less orange 

I note that you walked a customer through repairing his. It's probably not something a novice should tackle--but how much time would you say it took you to make the fixes to your locomotive?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's all play nicely gentlemen. Pretty please with sugar on it?


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

I agree!


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

Now that this thread has calmed down a bit, we (Accucraft UK) would like to respond to some of the statements made here. We acknowledge that there have been some QA issues with the batch of Mannins but thus far (in the UK) these have amounted to:

Two bent footplates
One failed pressure gauge
Five safety valves that wouldn’t seat
One blocked gas jet
Two examples of loose bolts on the spring hangers
Lining paintwork damaged in transit
Minor cosmetic damage in transit

This list covers both live steam and electric locos from a total of 200 units. All these warranty repairs were dealt with at our own cost as quickly as possible. It is worth remembering that warranty claims should first be referred to the original dealer in that country (although some folk seem to think that complaining on a forum is correct form!) who will sort it out with the distributor in that region. In the same way that Accucraft UK supports Accucraft US products sold through the UK dealer network, Accucraft US supports the UK range in America. 

We would not expect customers to sort out problems themselves (although changing a safety valve or a gas jet are usually tasks they are happy to undertake) which obviates the need to post 'how to fix it' type lists on forums such as this. We will happily talk through any problem our UK customers might have and hope that we provide ample after-market support, as does Cliff in the US, Lorenz in Germany and Michael in Aus.

Graham.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Chris, Yes I accept. I do think it all got way out of hand. Problem with the internet is people will always interpret the same sentence in different ways, sometime even reading whats not there. Hopefully next July we will still be sitting there drinking beer and running trains on Poison Creek.

Graham, as noted here in the opening post and as I informed you back in June on it mine ad a few others when received to bring it to your attention you do know this is my personal locomoive. Here I fixed my personal locomotive and posted just how to do it. Clean and simple as I was not about to reship it out.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Graham, I'm sure you would have fixed mine too if you had the chance but I reported the damage to my dealer in the UK and I fixed the bent footplate myself. I mostly import Accucraft and others direct from the USA, UK and Europe and pay shipping to Australia. I did ask my local dealer about Mannin and he had no interest in it at the time so I placed an order elsewhere. I saved $400 in the end so it all worked out in the wash. 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

umm.. somehow my latest post dissapeared.
either way, glad everything is back to normal.

regards, Nate H.

EDIT: oops! i thought this was the thread jason, apology, when i was typing and i didnt see the conversation between me and tom i thought it was deleted. DUH!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Accucraft UK said:


> which obviates the need to post 'how to fix it' type lists on forums such as this.
> 
> Graham.





Graham are you really saying that MLS and other forums are no longer a place to go to show repairs and fixes to something? I know you have only joined in 2013 and have 65 posts but I know you have read the forum for a time before that. I have been on this forum since before the platform change, going back many years ago. So show the age, my Accucraft Ida which is my first loco was serial 30somethign from batch one and bought new for 250.00 

For all the time it has been this has always been the place for how to and repairs. Be it by TRS with the multitude of repairs and fixes Ryan has done, Bill Allen recently on fixing a GS4 to his most current ob a Cab Forward or further back to Gordon Watson correcting a GS4 from the start when it was new. 

I really can't agree with that comment, this has always been the place and will continue to be the place among others like Facebook.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I have only been around this hobby for a couple of years and cannot speak to whether there have been other fine places to visit apart from this place and a couple of others.

Besides MLS and MyFastForums Gauge One Railway Forum (and the Yahoo Group,) where else would one go to discuss the subject of maintenance, repairs and customizations?

Informal and/or anecdotal product review ought to be appreciated as well, if done fairly and in good faith.

I understand that Graham's contribution sought, among other things, to protect commercial interest. And certainly, a dissatisfied customer should work with the manufacturer and/or the manufacturer's distribution or representation before airing dirty laundry in public, so to speak.

But . . .

I did not read Jason's posts as complaints as much as I saw them as an opportunity for the manufacturer and for the customer to make improvements on the model should either be so inclined. On a positive note, this thread also allowed Graham to provide guidance should someone receive an Accucraft product in need of post sales attention.

I appreciate the sharing even though I may never own a Mannin. If I had a Mannin, I'd know just what to do to improve it.

I am glad to be able to read the observations and suggestions of others in an open forum and I hope that community members will be encouraged to offer the benefits of their experience.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Graham

One thing that is distinctly different between the UK and the USA is that of the ease of returning a locomotive and the incredible risk the customer takes here. In the UK a customer can hand deliver the item if he chooses simply because of the [typically] smaller distance to be traveled. The risk of damage in transit to ship something back to Cliff is pretty unnerving given the record of both UPS and FedEx, and their abysmal customer service related to damage claims. A UPS driver backed over a friend's Row & Co. BigBoy. The claim was finally settled after the guy threatened to take UPS to court. In addition, for large locomotives, it costs Accucraft a large amount for shipping on a warranty repair. I had a problem with an improperly installed superheater in a C&O H-8. It was far less risky, and less costly, to have Ryan Bednarik do the repair with no shipping involved.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Accucraft UK said:


> ............... We acknowledge that there have been some QA issues with the batch of Mannins but* thus far (in the UK) these have amounted to:*
> 
> Two bent footplates
> One failed pressure gauge
> ...




I'm not sure how you can say that Graham - those are only the issues that you *know* about. 

What about the ones that have been repaired by their owners like Jason has done - what about those people who cannot repair their loco themselves and have enlisted the help of club members or friends - what about the ones who just accepted the faults because they don't want to trust their locos to the vagaries of the postal/courrier services for a second or third time - and what about the ones that just end up as shelf queens.

I'm pretty sure that if you include all those you might come up with a very different number.





> .... although some folk seem to think that complaining on a forum is correct form! ....


I think you may be mistaking 'folks complaining' - for people having perfectly legitimate discussions, on a technical forum, about all the various issues concerning their locomotives.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

John 842 said:


> [/FONT][/SIZE]
> 
> I'm not sure how you can say that Graham - those are only the issues that you *know* about.
> 
> ...



John;
You only know what you know not what you don't know. If you know there may be some thing(s) you don't know that's an unknown unknown.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> John;
> You only know what you know not what you don't know. If you know there may be some thing(s) you don't know that's an unknown unknown. Even if you don't know that you don't know it that's an unknown unknown unknown - which you don't know.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Chris - I'm not sure I follow that - but how about if I said ....

"I'm pretty sure that if you *could* include all those you (Graham) might come up with some very different numbers." -


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

John 842 said:


> Hey Chris - I'm not sure I follow that - but how about if I said ....
> 
> "I'm pretty sure that if you *could* include all those you (Graham) might come up with some very different numbers." -



You could just as easily come up with the same numbers. You don't know what you don't know. You're trying to infer a negative which is a false narrative. More or stays the same the reply to either is, what's your point? The answer, we need more data, more Mannin deliveries and feedback. 

If the incident numbers don't change but number of Mannin's delivered and feedback grows, the sample size increases, the probability of any of the remaining Mannin's having a problem decreases. In those cases, the problem remaining is that we are likely to not hear about those because good news doesn't have much attraction or motivation to correct the record. It would be nice to say we are equally likely to learn or not learn about Mannin's that do have problems. That's clearly not the case because we're more likely to hear about problems even if the problem number's are dwarfed by the all ok numbers in point off fact. Which means problems get blown out of proportions. Not that that ever happens.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris, there is usually more to what is not known or reported. I had assembly damage that was reported the the UK dealer that was NOT fixed by Accucraft UK as Graham claimed. Not that I am inferring any problem though. Return shipping is cost prohibiting from where I live.

So what do you want? A list of all the problems I have found on new Accucraft locomotives that were not reported?
It can be done to prove the point that you are incorrect. Those who are in the business of public perception will always convey glossy generalizations. I reported my concerns so the QC issue could be conveyed to the manufacturers, that is all and Graham has shown his concern. I am satisfied in that but having to return damaged stuff for it to be resolved does not work for me. 

Andrew


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Garratt said:


> Chris, there is usually more to what is not known or reported. I had assembly damage that was reported the the UK dealer that was NOT fixed by Accucraft UK as Graham claimed. Not that I am inferring any problem though. Return shipping is cost prohibiting from where I live.
> 
> So what do you want? A list of all the problems I have found on new Accucraft locomotives that were not reported?
> It can be done to prove the point that you are incorrect. Those who are in the business of public perception will always convey glossy generalizations. I reported my concerns so the QC issue could be conveyed to the manufacturers, that is all and Graham has shown his concern. I am satisfied in that but having to return damaged stuff for it to be resolved does not work for me.
> ...



Andrew;
Graham wrote, "_All these warranty repairs were dealt with _at our own cost as quickly as possible." They were "all dealt with". He did not write fixed. Your Mannin issue was dealt with to the degree possible given your circumstances to your satisfaction, as you acknowledged and wrote above.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> .....Graham wrote, "_All these warranty repairs were dealt with _at our own cost as quickly as possible." They were "all dealt with". He did not write fixed. I believe Graham carefully and deliberately chose his words being well aware of your situation, others possibly the same. ....... I don't see a problem except you're reading the word fixed into Graham's message.


Yes, I had a similar experience recently when I went to great lengths to explain (not *com*plain ) why the lubricator on my NA was in the wrong place. 

They replied ....



David Fletcher said:


> .....No damage on the rear trucks that I have seen on the NAs ......... so dono what happened to yours....... I dont use this oil drain however.........its hard to access regardless of where they put the valve ....... I'm not going to respond any further .... others have far more input than I on the model engineering aspect........
> David.


So maybe they consider that 'dealt with' - it's certainly not 'fixed' - but then I just don't want to get into all the hassle of return shipping.

Anyway - like Andrew - I'm happy, it's a great model and now that I've fixed the water gauge, the pressure gauge, the gas tank, the damaged cab, the bent valve handles, etc. etc. it's running well and I'm having fun and one day I might get around to fixing the damaged rear truck .... 

(BTW - My rear truck *had* to be damaged - the cast corner detail *must* be cut away to clear the lubricator drain valve.)


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Scott said:


> Seems you're objecting to being included in "fixed." Your Mannin was not 'fixed," e.g., repaired or replaced. You're right, a fix is a fix and if it's not a fix it's not a fix.
> 
> Graham wrote, "All these warranty repairs were dealt with at our own cost as quickly as possible." He did not say all the issues were fixed. Your circumstance, by your description, was resolved to the degree possible given your circumstances as you wrote. Do you know that your issue is not one of the listed or included in the counted in Graham's list as having been dealt with? Using the words "dealt with" are carefully chosen to not do exactly what you I think are objecting to, claim fixed. But your issue(s), as you described, were dealt with to to the degree possible given your circumstances, as you wrote, to your satisfaction. I don't see the problem except you're reading the word fixed in to Graham's message when he did not write fixed. I know it might seem just semantics, just smoke. But it's not. I believe Graham very deliberately chose his words and he did not use the word fixed because he was very well aware that your Mannin was in fact not fixed, it was dealt with.
> 
> ...


Do go on Chris. My repair was at my cost which I dealt with, not Graham. Taking merit for dealing with something when one did nothing is a false claim. As I said, I have no problem with it or Graham himself and didn’t see it necessary to even bring it up but John’s point and then mine was that there are likely to be other unreported faults and there is absolutely no doubt about it. You seem to have strayed from the point of the discussion.

Andrew


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Andrew, Maybe I was lucky - I bent them back straight as soon as I recieved the model.

However, brass does age harden, so maybe it would be a good idea on older valves to anneal them first. 

(I know - that could be a lot of hassle)

EDIT - Oops! - your post vanished Andrew....


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

John, good to know the valve handles can be bent back. I was a bit concerned in doing so when I first saw them on my other NA. I will carefully get on to it soon. 

Andrew


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

OK, to avoid endless semantic differences, let me just re-iterate a relevant part of our warranty policy, "Warranty registration cards must be returned to us as soon as possible after purchase, including those for U.S., Schug or Argyle models. Please note that we do not offer a warranty service for Accucraft models purchased outside the UK, only for those bought through our UK dealer network. If, for any reason, you have a locomotive bought this way it would have to be returned to the original dealer for warranty repairs."

As part of our drive to create a global business, the distributors in various countries handle warranty issues in their own domain. Clearly it gets complicated when folk start bypassing the distributor/dealers in their own country and purchase from overseas.

We have been doing our best for Isle of Man customers for over ten years, bringing locomotives and rolling stock to the 1:20.3 market at affordable prices. Just lately it seems to have become 'open season' for Accucraft UK and I am beginning to wonder why we continue to bother with this range.....

Graham.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

if you make it under 500 bucks i would consider it affordable,


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> if you make it under 500 bucks i would consider it affordable,


You would have to cut out the middle man Nate, but then who knows what you would get? 
Probably something made out of old Coke cans and bits of bent wire. LOL 

Andrew


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

lets see, the frame would be made of tin foil, the wheels would be round pieces of cardboard, a coke can for the boiler, a tire pressure tester for a pressure gauge, and cylinders made out of PVC pipe






*and dont forget the side rods would be made out of piano wire....


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well this thread has gone downhill. Bringing it back on topic here is a video from the run this weekend. Short of the leaking safety valves which will be replaced now that I am home it ran well and I am happy with it. 

https://www.facebook.com/jay.kovac.1/videos/10153875601308963/


Graham, towards your comment of open season, I don't fully agree with. I'm not going to get into her here but a simple change on the design and none of this would of happened and would of cost nothing. I was very disappointed with the big cutout on the boiler wrapper. Its just stuck out like a sore thumb to me. We run on alot of elevated railroads and that is seen all the time. I have to say, I was pretty lucky to find a almost perfect match for the paint locally.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That is (now?) a very nice looking engine. I love the big drivers slowly turning. It looks like it runs nice and smoothly too! Enjoy!


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Accucraft UK said:


> OK, to avoid endless semantic differences, let me just re-iterate a relevant part of our warranty policy, "Warranty registration cards must be returned to us as soon as possible after purchase, including those for U.S., Schug or Argyle models. Please note that we do not offer a warranty service for Accucraft models purchased outside the UK, only for those bought through our UK dealer network. If, for any reason, you have a locomotive bought this way it would have to be returned to the original dealer for warranty repairs."


It would be interesting to know what percentage of customers actually return their warranty registration cards. I think a lot of people, like the OP would prefer to put any problems right themselves, rather than go through the hassle of negotiating whether a warranty claim is justified or not - and then face all the trouble and anxiety involved with return shipping.



> As part of our drive to create a global business, the distributors in various countries handle warranty issues in their own domain. Clearly it gets complicated when folk start bypassing the distributor/dealers in their own country and purchase from overseas.


It appears Accucraft go to some lengths to prevent that happening. A recent example was when the initial batch of British Mk 1 coaches were sold out at the UK distributor - they were still being listed on the Accucraft US site as available, but they would "not ship to the UK or Canada". So British customers were prevented from buying them - even though they were a British prototype and readily available in the US.



> We have been doing our best for Isle of Man customers for over ten years, bringing locomotives and rolling stock to the 1:20.3 market at affordable prices. Just lately it seems to have become 'open season' for Accucraft UK and I am beginning to wonder why we continue to bother with this range.....Graham.


I agree, I've had some fine models from your Isle of Man distributor over the years, but sadly the quality is just not the same as it once was. I bought all 4 road numbers of the 'Peat' wagons when they came out and they are superb museum quality models in the best of the old Accucraft tradition. 

So when the I of M wagons were announced, I made a reservation - it eventually arrived on my door-step and what a disappointment it was. However it did provided a good oportunity to compare two similar wagons, commissioned by the same dealership, from the same supplier, for similar markets, and see just how far the quality had dropped over a relatively short period of time.

I think your case might be better served if you were to stop referring your loyal customers from the past as "complaining folk" who are somehow engaged in some "open season" sporting event like shooting grouse or something - and just concentrate on giving your outstanding dealers like 'Track-Shack' more of the *old* style Accucraft quality to work with.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree and disagree with some things said in this thread. One thing is sure though. Nothing is like it used to be in the old days. That is what makes the "old days" so special. 

Carry on gentleman. Carry on.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

iceclimber said:


> I agree and disagree with some things said in this thread. One thing is sure though. Nothing is like it used to be in the old days. That is what makes the "old days" so special.
> 
> Carry on gentleman. Carry on.


Well of course I would agree that we live in a changing world and I totaly accept that - but it doesn't neccessarily follow that the slide into mediocrity is inevitable.

In our world of trains - just look how companies, like Piko for instance, are climbing from relative obscurity to the kind of quality and value that we're seeing coming out of Germany in 2016.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

If QC is the topic, I don't have any problems with my Wuhu G5, made in China, and haven't seen any posted here. I did see a few minor issues published in SiTG which occurred in shipping. The changes I made were purely optional. I anxiously anticipate their next PRR locomotive. 
And once again to dispel rumors that are being spread by someone that has too much time in their hands, I have no connection with Wuhu or Bob Clark other than being a satisfied customer.. 
Thank You. nick jr


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

> Clearly it gets complicated when folk start bypassing the distributor/dealers in their own country and purchase from overseas.


I'd like to come back to this point. I can readily understand that, for a variety of reasons, Accucraft UK can only handle transactions within its UK network, and that if I (living in the US) purchase a loco from a UK dealer, I need to work within the implied contract with that dealer if there's a problem with the product. Although I've been very fortunate and have had no problems with the AC locos I've purchased from UK dealers, I'd like to humbly suggest to the UK dealer community that sells overseas that they emphasize (in the largest font available) that buyers outside the UK face that potential complication.

But now I have a question: do locomotives designed by Accucraft UK have a UK-specific warranty card packed along inside? For example, I've got an Accucraft Bagnall on order through The Train Department; how would I register the locomotive for warranty? Is that even necessary, or is my sales receipt enough to work with if there's a problem?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

JoelB said:


> I'd like to come back to this point. I can readily understand that, for a variety of reasons, Accucraft UK can only handle transactions within its UK network, and that if I (living in the US) purchase a loco from a UK dealer, I need to work within the implied contract with that dealer if there's a problem with the product. Although I've been very fortunate and have had no problems with the AC locos I've purchased from UK dealers, I'd like to humbly suggest to the UK dealer community that sells overseas that they emphasize (in the largest font available) that buyers outside the UK face that potential complication.
> 
> But now I have a question: do locomotives designed by Accucraft UK have a UK-specific warranty card packed along inside? For example, I've got an Accucraft Bagnall on order through The Train Department; how would I register the locomotive for warranty? Is that even necessary, or is my sales receipt enough to work with if there's a problem?


 

Joel, In the US proof of purchase is all that's required. After all, the cards don't prove any specific barcode or serial data for each locomotive. Cliff has always honored the warranty for the locomotives without hesitation. Proof of ownership is usually a copy of your receipt or if the dealer sets it all up for you then you do nothing on your end.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

jason it looks like she runs well in your vid. a very nice looking engine too with your mods to her.

now lets say i want to have my ruby repaired by accucraft, do i just need to prove i bought it from you? and then will they fix it for free?
nate


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

JoelB said:


> ....
> But now I have a question: do locomotives designed by Accucraft UK have a UK-specific warranty card packed along inside? For example, I've got an Accucraft Bagnall on order through The Train Department; how would I register the locomotive for warranty? Is that even necessary, or is my sales receipt enough to work with if there's a problem?


I think you will find according to most consumer laws that returning warranty cards is not required if the product was advertised with warranty. Proof of purchase from the authorized dealer will be necessary. Check with the local consumer laws where you bought the item from though. 

Andrew


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> jason it looks like she runs well in your vid. a very nice looking engine too with your mods to her.
> 
> now lets say i want to have my ruby repaired by accucraft, do i just need to prove i bought it from you? and then will they fix it for free?
> nate


Nate, anyone including Accucraft can repair your locomotive. Its out of warranty as it was sold as a used locomotive. It was not a new sealed box straight from the factory. It was a locomotive that was purchased by the original owner who passed away and was sold from his family to you.

Accucraft warranty is 1 year from purchase for the original owner.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

BUYER BEWARE: Purchasing a used LS locomotive is more risky than rolling the dice in Vegas. I purchased ONE used Chaney Heisler and wound up totally rebuilding the locomotive and Mike rebuilt the engine and valve system. I will NEVER purchase a used LS locomotive from ANYONE ever again and would never advise some one to do so, without first seeing it run IN PERSON, I don't care who is selling it, and that isn't just MHO, many other would advise the same. And the Agent should be ashamed, did he test it or even see it. Don't let this spoil you from LS, there are many reputable dealers are out there. Thank You


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Nick Jr said:


> BUYER BEWARE: Purchasing a used LS locomotive is more risky than rolling the dice in Vegas. I purchased ONE used Chaney Heisler and wound up totally rebuilding the locomotive and Mike rebuilt the engine and valve system. I will NEVER purchase a used LS locomotive from ANYONE ever again and would never advise some one to do so, without first seeing it run IN PERSON, I don't care who is selling it, and that isn't just MHO, many other would advise the same. And the Agent should be ashamed, did he test it or even see it. Don't let this spoil you from LS,
> there are many reputable dealers are out there. Thank You


 
whom exactly are you speaking to?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick Jr said:


> BUYER BEWARE: Purchasing a used LS locomotive is more risky than rolling the dice in Vegas. I purchased ONE used Chaney Heisler and wound up totally rebuilding the locomotive and Mike rebuilt the engine and valve system. I will NEVER purchase a used LS locomotive from ANYONE ever again and would never advise some one to do so, without first seeing it run IN PERSON, I don't care who is selling it, and that isn't just MHO, many other would advise the same. And the Agent should be ashamed, did he test it or even see it. Don't let this spoil you from LS, there are many reputable dealers are out there. Thank You


Never met anyone that can hold such a grudge and devote so much negative energy to someone like you do Nick. Best of all is I never did anything to you so even warrant such negativity. You liked to twist words and twist what I was explaining to you, you didn't like my answers so you went on a personal vendetta for the last 5 years. Worst of all I introduced you into the hobby and to my friends.


Nate, he talks about me, Always me. If not me he comments on Chris Scott. Its a running joke for years with him. So many people are tired of it on here by the comments that are made by him. Its best to ignore when things like this happen. He was almost thrown out of another forum for telling off the moderator, just goes to show how people can be. And the moderator Dan Rowe is one of the nicest people you will meet. And a great guy to chat with when I am down at Diamondhead.

As to used locomotives, we all buy them and always will. Its the best way to get what you want. A lot of what I desire is old productions and it can take a long time to find exactly what you want. My recent purchase a used Roundhouse locomotive is 16 years old. Guess what, needed minor tune up and its runs great. Plus buying used is a great way to save money. Look at your Ruby, a new one will cost you 600 and for 250 you got a almost new one that ran like a champ when you got it. I think now once you find out what pressure you are really running at then you will see an improvement in performance.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Hey guys - I deleted my comment - I guess I'm relatively new here and don't know all the history - sorry.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Holy Steam, Dear Live People, how can a perfectly well meant and well initiated, informative and interesting thread get to this level? Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I suggest taking any and all "altercations" to email gentleman, lest this thread be locked.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

lets "get this train back on the tracks" now lets get back to the mannin subject. dwight i agree. like i said, i am trying to "hold middle ground as i do not want to be partial to any members here. one problems with forums is you cant tell someones tone of voice, mood, ect. i say none of us are perfect and we accept this.

jason, does the mannin have extra water storage in a tank in the bunker or tanks?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> jason, does the mannin have extra water storage in a tank in the bunker or tanks?


No its just the boiler. I installed a goodall valve though. It has a very small gas tank though and I don't get enough run time for me. I was out in about 25 mins from startup. That was with it running at about 50psi. but both safety's were leaking the whole time so I lost a lot of water that way. I have different valves to put on but haven't got there yet. Hopefully my leaking safety are not read as me complaining.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Kovacjr said:


> Hopefully my leaking safety are not read as me complaining.


J,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean
-Nate


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> J,
> I'm not exactly sure what you mean
> -Nate


I think he maybe refering to the fact that when people go to the trouble of *ex*plaining, for the purposes of discussion, why they are experiencing a techichnical problem - Accucraft have a rather unfortunate tendency to mistakenly regard it as *co*mplaining.

(See posts #22, #29 and #35 .... )


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

John 842 said:


> ......
> I agree, I've had some fine models from your Isle of Man distributor over the years, but sadly the quality is just not the same as it once was. I bought all 4 road numbers of the 'Peat' wagons when they came out and they are superb museum quality models in the best of the old Accucraft tradition.
> 
> So when the I of M wagons were announced, I made a reservation - it eventually arrived on my door-step and what a disappointment it was. However it did provided a good oportunity to compare two similar wagons, commissioned by the same dealership, from the same supplier, for similar markets, and see just how far the quality had dropped over a relatively short period of time.


John, I also have the Accucraft W&L Peate wagons among others and all are very nice models. I was thinking of getting some of the IOM open wagons and soon to be released van and brake.
What are the specific 'quality' issues you have noticed with IOM rolling stock you have so far purchased?

Andrew


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Garratt said:


> John, I also have the Accucraft W&L Peate wagons among others and all are very nice models. I was thinking of getting some of the IOM open wagons and soon to be released van and brake.
> What are the specific 'quality' issues you have noticed with IOM rolling stock you have so far purchased?
> 
> Andrew


Hi Andrew - that's a good question and I'll do my best to give you a good answer.

The first thing I noticed when I unpacked the wagon was how rough it ran when I put it on a piece of track and it soon became evident that there were three main reasons for this.

1) - The wheels were not running true to the axles - there was both a radial excentricity and an axial wobble.

It appears that the design of these axles have been progressively downgraded over time - back in the days when the L & B 4 ton van first appeared the axles were of a triple diameter design - 5.0mm for the wheel locating land - 3.5 mm for the hub mounting - and 3.0 mm for the bearing section. In addition they had axial splines on the 3.5 mm section to give additional location for the wheel.

When the Peate wagons came along, the axles were still of the triple diameter design, but the axial splines had been deleted. However, to compensate for the loss of the splines, the diameter of the hub mounting section had been increased from 3.5 mm to 4.3 mm diameter.

Now we come to the I of M wagon axles which have been reduced to a simple two diameter design. The diameter of the hub mounting section has been reduced to be the same as that of the bearing section - i.e. 3.0 mm - which doesn't appear to be adequate considering that the I of M wheels are bigger than the Peate ones.

I gotta go now - I'm the keyholder at the club today - more later .....


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

To continue from my post #65 - always assuming of course Jason doesn't mind his thread wandering a bit from title subjest - after all it is somewhat related as it concerns Accucraft quality.........

2) - All 4 wheels don't contact the track at the same time due to perhaps the most significant difference between the two designs.

On the Peate wagons the W-irons have a flange running along the top edge which provides positive location up against the underside of the wagon floor. - On the I of M's there is no such flange - the irons are completely flat and so there is no positive location other than two M2 X 5mm self tapping screws which are a loose clearance fit in the irons. 

Curiously - there are reinforcing pads moulded or glued to the floor in way of the irons, but the irons are completely clear of these pads by between 0.7 to 2.0mm

Unlike the Peat wagons where the W-irons, axle boxes and springs are all cast as a single unit - the I of M axle boxes actually slide in the irons as though it was originally intended that the wheels should be sprung. The big cut outs in the replica springs also look as though they were intended to accomodate real springs at some point.

I think the point here is that - if you are going to delete the locating flanges, then you need springing to compensate for the differences in height - and if you are going to delete the springing, then you need the flanges to positively locate the W-irons. However, if you delete both the flanges and the springing, then there is not much chance of keeping all 4 wheels in contact with the track at the same time.

3) - The Peat wheels appear to be fully machined stainless steel - whereas, the I of M wheels appear to be completely un-machined white metal castings. This cast finish is of a high quality but the imperfections on the rolling surface of the tire are just too big to allow smooth running - these deffects are difficult to see because the whole wheel, including the actual rolling surface in contact with the rail is covered in black paint.

There are a number of other points where the Peat wagons are superior to the I of M's

- Although the brake levers on the I of M's are 50% longer than the Peat's - they are only half the thickness which makes them very susceptable to getting bent.

- The lever on the I of M was fitted up side down and because it was held in place by a rivet I had to drill it out - drill and tap the mounting - and fit an authentic looking M2 X 0.4 square head brass bolt - just like the ones that come fitted as standard on the Peats. Now that I'd inverted the brake lever, the attachment bracket for the brake locking pin chain was upsidedown and had to be repositioned.

- The body furniture on the Peats is painted authentic matt black - on the I of M's it's just bare shiny plastic.

- Small details that are separate mouldings on the Peat's are just painted on by hand with a brush on the I of M's - the brackets that join the buffer beam's to the longitudinals - the wrought iron bands on the ends of the buffer beams. (the Peat's dont have these bands, but on the L & B bogie brake van that has similar beams, these bands are separate mouldings.) - the inboard static part of the side board hinges.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> now lets say i want to have my ruby repaired by accucraft, do i just need to prove i bought it from you? and then will they fix it for free?


Nate,
It is worth noting that Accucraft has a service manager (Cliff) who does a superlative job trying to help people with problems - even on older locomotives. If he has a part in the bits/junk box, he will usually send it to you, though not usually free. Or he'll tell you what to buy from the eStore to fix your problem.

Warranty claims are another matter. Packing and shipping a loco back to the dealer to be returned to the factory for repairs can be a real pain. I've tended to negotiate so only the defective part gets returned - but I have never had a really bad Accucraft loco. They have all worked as advertised, though one arrived with shipping damage.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff is EXCELLENT in service. When I purchased the LS AML K4 I had a problem with the flame blowing out when the steam was applied to the cylinders, He advised me to take it to Justin, he builds boilers for Triple R conversations and is also an authorized repair person for Accucraft. . He found a leak that wasn't just a loose fitting and authorized a replacement, Cliff/Accucraft did so with no problem. I agreed to pay the return shipping as the only replacement K4's had axle pumps, and I thought it was a good trade, I've always found it easy to work with Cliff. LG


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