# Accucraft C21 low power and short running and no blow down valve



## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

I have recently got an Accucraft C21 from a friend who was selling all of his live steam stable of locos to fund a 1:1 scale loco rebuild.

It has not had many runs and is RC equipped.

Today I took it to my local meet (nice flat indoor track) to give it the first run since I got it.
It fired perfectly and the RC was impeccable in operation...BUT...

1) it really had very little power (the regulator was tried at all positions and the reverser (Johnson bar) at all positions as well). In fact it would only pull a couple of Accucraft freight cars successfully around the track (10ft curves)

2) Although it had been filled with water (to nearly top of sight-glass) and it had been fully filled up with gas (the gas tank in the tender is a huge one even for a dual burner like this loco has). The gas was at a warm room temperature as was the loco. The gas burners were working well....... it steamed properly for less than 15 minutes before the gas ran out (the gas was not on a high setting at all!)

My friend says that is maybe still needing running in....

Also, although the Accucraft C21 instruction manual has a a photo (it is of a C16 not a C21) that shows that the loco has a blow down valve under the steam oil lubricator and it also states how to use it when firing the loco up .....but there is no blow down valve on this loco. 
All my other Accucraft locos (old or more recent) have a blow down valve but strangely this one does not... even if the instructions show it to have one! My friend says that he always used a syringe to suck out the gunk and water from the steam oil after a run.

Do you folk have any wisdom about the loco's performance...and also as to why it does not have a blow down valve, given that Accucraft state that it does!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> My friend says that is maybe still needing running in....
> 
> Also, although the Accucraft C21 instruction manual has a a photo (it is of a C16 not a C21) that shows that the loco has a blow down valve under the steam oil lubricator and it also states how to use it when firing the loco up .....but there is no blow down valve on this loco.
> . . .
> ...


Well, the performance ain't right. I've helped quite a few people with new Accucraft locos, and they all worked straight out of the box. The C-21 should give you 30+ minutes operation on that gas tank.
- These dual-flue boilers don't steam well on just one burner. I would suspect one of your jets is blocked or partially blocked. 
- If it only pulls 2 cars, it must be running on 20 psi or less - what does the pressure gauge say?
- With both burners working properly, the safety valve should start to leak or blow after 10-15 minutes.

Finally, that lubricator 'blow-down'. We've got a terminology problem here. Accucraft fits lubricator drains to most of its larger locos. They aren't designed for 'blow down' - rather, you wait until the loco is cool, open the lubricator top, open the drain and put a rag or something underneath to catch the water. When the water stops you close the drain.
A 'blow down' is usually on the backhead, and may be high or low. My EBT #12 has a low one, so I open it after running to release pressure and allow the vacuum as it cools to equalize. My C-19 has a high one, so I leave it open on firing up until steam starts to blow out.

This C-25 photo shows the lubricator drain and a high-mounted blowdown, all on the same side.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The C21 were plauged with valve issues. Most likely yours has got to the point of nobreturn without major repairs. The vakve block needs to have orings added to the spindle OR possibly a new valve even. Mine was a 2nd hand and it and was complete loss of power when I aquired it. Where are you located. Unless you have a lathe you will need to send it to someone for repairs. If you like you can contact me after Diamondhead to discuss options. Also that C25 image is a retrofit I did to a customers C25 down in Flordia.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> - These dual-flue boilers don't steam well on just one burner. I would suspect one of your jets is blocked or partially blocked.
> - If it only pulls 2 cars, it must be running on 20 psi or less - what does the pressure gauge say?
> - With both burners working properly, the safety valve should start to leak or blow after 10-15 minutes.


My C-21 had power issues new right from the box. It would do okay on level track, but the slightest grade would slow it to a stop. Additionally, if memory serves, the C-21 had a single flue and burner.

As Jason said, I suspect serious steam leakage in the direction valve. Possibly in the cylinders' piston valves as well.


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Thank you for the replies.

The C21 has a twin burner and both are operating perfectly.

There is no steam escaping from the cylinders or underneath the loco.

I apologise for introducing a terminology problem but the item that I called the 'blow down valve' is the 'lubricator drain'. 
This lubricator drain can also be used to 'blow down' (I use it for this use on my other Accucraft locos) as the boiler will quite happily 'blow' the residual steam pressure out of the lubricator if the drain is opened (along with the gunk that is left there after a run).
Unfortunately there is no drain under the lubricator on my C21, even though the manual shows photos of one being in place.
In fact the instruction manual has a few pictures that are really of a C16 so maybe the C21 never had a drain at all.

One of my other Accucraft locos (2 cylinder shay) also has a boiler drain valve that is useful if I have overfilled with water ... but of course the C21 does not have one of those either.

I think that a rebore of the cylinders to enlarge their capacity might be in order.
I will try Dave Bailey over here in the UK to see what he might be able to do, and at what cost!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Really. Could have sworn mine had a single flue. Oh well, it's been many years since I sold her and my memory ain't what it usta was. LOL.

Reboring the cylinders may help, but the steam leakage problem is in the valves, especially the "reversing valve" in the block between the cylinders. Also, one can overbore cylinders where their steam requirement exceeds boiler capacity.

David Bailey is a real pro. I'm sure he'll give you the best advise.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> There is no steam escaping from the cylinders or underneath the loco.


Many Accucraft locos have the valve block under the smokebox between the cylinders, and the smokebox is often open at the bottom. Leaking steam might be sucked up into the stack by the (feeble?) exhaust.



> This lubricator drain can also be used to 'blow down' (I use it for this use on my other Accucraft locos) as the boiler will quite happily 'blow' the residual steam pressure out of the lubricator if the drain is opened (along with the gunk that is left there after a run).


While I am not disputing you can empty the lubricator that way, it's a waste of good steam oil ! Unless you have run for an hour or so, there will be good oil and water, so sucking the water out with a syringe is all you need.
(P.S. I add a thin tube to the supplied small syringe and seal it with heat shrink tubing.)


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, I also prefer the syringe as some of the drains have O rings and I don't want too over tighten and ruin them LG


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Pete and Nick

As I ave been given tons of steam oil, I am not too worried about wasting the little that is left after a running session.

Having a lubricator drain tap not only easily facilitates the blowing out of emulsified steam oil and accumulated water in the lubricator but it also is good for blowing out the remaining pressure in the boiler.

Of course this pressure release can be done by opening the top of the lubricator or the boiler filler very carefully but as my C21 has the reverser RC servo and the RX nearby to the lubricator, IMHO, it seems to be a simpler and better method to use a lubricator drain **** under the cab, if there is one present.

The fact that there is not any drain tap (lubricator or boiler) fitted to the C21 lubricator seems like a penny pinching move by Accucraft.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

beavercreek said:


> The fact that there is not any drain tap (lubricator or boiler) fitted to the C21 lubricator seems like a penny pinching move by Accucraft.


I think that was kind of the point of the C-21. Mechanically it was a no-frills model with Ruby-style piston valves, no blowdown, etc. but the result was a mini-mudhen that retailed for just a little more than half the price of the K-27, which made it an attractive model for those who couldn't afford the K.


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

Both my C 21's ran OK out of the box, however I have converted both to Slide Valves and Stephenson's Valve Gear and one has a Coal Fired Boiler, some of you may remember me bringing it to DH about 10 years ago.
It looks as if the Superheater may be partly blocked with burnt oil, contact me off group and we can have a chat about your problem.
David Bailey [email protected]


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Well,
I steamed her on rollers and she fired well. 
She reached just under 60psi before the safety blew and then ran after quite a few back and forth with the Johnson bar.
When running slowly (whether controlled by the regulator or the Johnson bar) she definitely had a 'sticky' jerky motion. It was much like a 'ker-chump' 'ker-chump'.
I sped her up and pressed down on the loco to the bottom of the springs and she soon registered the extra load and slowed down to the jerky movement.
I gripped the pilot beam and the cab and 'twisted' her one way and the other. She definitely did not like one of the twist directions and almost stopped.

After she cooled down I put her on her back in a cradle.
I have checked all steam piping and superheater and all is well with that. 
I checked that the RC servo on the Johnson bar was doing a 'full' throw and it was.
I again checked the timing and reversing bar to central steam chest...all is spot on.
I then pushed the wheels manually.
There was a definite quite noticeable resistance as the pistons went in and out of the cylinders.
I undid the two main crank-rods.
I again pushed the wheels manually and thoroughly investigated the motion to see if there was any resistance..... none was found even when pressing down on it heavily. All springs are fine too. No brake detail is fouling the wheels.
I reconnected the main crank-rod

I then ran the wheels and connecting rods manually again and checked the resistance..... but something *strange* had happened...
There was now no 'extra' resistance during the cycle of motion.

I went though the investigation again but the 'extra' resistance did not return.

On righting the loco, I pushed it along on the surface and it moved smoothly with a constant small reistance.

There was a slight 'squelching gurgling' coming from one of the cylinders (it could be also clearly heard down the funnel). 
This could be due to a little water left in the boiler or from the lubricator that had run into it as I turned the loco over and then circulating around the system ending up in the piston chest.

The next step will be to fire her up on the rollers again (when the weather allows me out) to see if her performance has improved (perhaps the 'extra' resistance blockage/friction may return under heat or steaming).

I do hope that this 'cure' is permanent!


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

Might have been one of those mysterious "bit of something stuck in there" sort of things, that miraculously disappear when knocked loose. Hopefully, that's the easy fix. Please post after you test fire...


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Had the loco been run much prior to your ownership? I wonder if it just needs some run time to bed things in? Mike


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Ray, yes let's hope that the 'mysterious' disappearance of the 'resistance' does stay that way... I will definitely report back once the next steam test has happened.

Hi Mike, the loco has done about 12, or so, hours steaming in its life (this is just going on what my friend has said about the number of steam-ups the loco has had and he had bought it from new. 
The fact that there was a 'sudden' change in the apparent performance, sort of excludes a 'bedding-in' but rather points to something 'clogging-up' somewhere.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

It could be that as it was upside down, the slide valves fell off the face which would remove any resistance due to compression.
Often well oiled ones will 'stick' against the cylinder surface even when inverted.
At least that's my thought!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada

SORRY, JUST THOUGHT THAT THIS PROBABLY HAS PISTON VALVES, DOESN'T IT?


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Many apologies to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I forgot to come back with how she performed when on a layout after the 'mysterious' clog removal.

I took her to our monthly indoor meet and set her up. She fired well and got to pressure pretty quickly. I opened up the throttle and cleared the condensate and she was off. What a transformation. She ran smoothly at low speed and didn't flinch at the small gradient on one part of the layout like she had done the first time that I ran her. I added some heavy 1:20.3 cars and she still carried on. I added more until she had 6 cars and she was fine. She ran for a good 35 minutes before the gas ran out

I had previously given her a quick test on my own layout but she certainly did not like the gradients (mine max at about 10% and my LS shays are up to the challenge but no rod engine will do well without help). 
She ran on the flattish parts fine but as soon as gradients ( above 2-3%) appeared she was not happy (this was running light).

There is no one over here in UK who would do the cylinder re-bore like the one that Dave Hottman and Ray Kovac have done. (I spoke to David Bailey's son and he said that they only do coal fired work now).
So it looks like she will be a 'visitor' to other people's layouts where they are pretty flat.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad that you were able to clear it up. If you do want to enlarge the bores, you could remove and mail me the cylinders. Short of that I can get you in touch with a couple people that may want to bore them for you in the UK. Message me direct or on Facebook as we have discussed there already. 

removal isn't bad, you remove the smokebox and then the cylinders. Leaving them complete with the caps on for me with the piston installed. I do not need the valve chests which just unbolt.


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

The rebore sounds a very good idea Ray.
Will it markedly change the power of the C21?
Do you have to make new pistons?

The piston valves do not seem to getting 'blow-by' yet, but is it only a matter of time? Or will the steam oil prevent the wear?... I use Accucraft steam oil and it seems a little thin compared with other that I have used..the C21 does get through it fairly quickly ( a 30 minute run uses it all up). Unfortunately there isn't an adjuster on the lubricator.


I will also contact you through Faceache and find out more details of the cylinder dismantlig and costs etc.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

beavercreek said:


> The rebore sounds a very good idea Ray.
> .


 
His name as Jay(jason), not Ray

Actually, nevermind, lets start all calling Jason Ray!LOL!

Glad to see your c-21 is running well!





BTW, Ray, Ryan was able to fix the crosshead, so i dont need a replacement.


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## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Many apologies Jason.... I knew a Ray Kovak in the past and I accidentally did a substitution!
I will contact you


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Nate
That reminds me of a commercial on TV years back where an old guy came on and said
"you can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay...but you doesn't has to call me Johnson" ...Way before your time.
Don't know why I remembered it.

Any way, glad everything worked out and 2-3% grades are usually a challenge for most rodded engines.
One thing about the blow down is that is the engine is equipped with a hand or axle pump, there is no need to relieve the pressure as when the boiler cools down, it will suck water or air through the one way check valves in the feedwater system until everything id equalized. Of course the throttle should always be closed.


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