# NiCd battery life (not run times) tips



## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I am trailing a battery install in a locomotive and would like some tips to make sure I get the most form my NiCd batteries.

I will not be using the locomotive often.

Should I charge the batteries before I store the loco away after an operating session?

Should I completely drain the batteries before I charge them or is just ‘topping them up’ after I run the loco okay?

Thanks
Alan


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

If you have a conditioning charger such as a Maha, cycle and charge them before storing. 
If not trickle charge them only. 
Unlike NiMh which will self discharge in a few weeks, NiCd cells hold a charge quite well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to disagree. 

Unless there is something wrong with the batteries, you need to realize that there are only so many "full" charge/discharge cycles. 

Discharging them and recharging them just uses more of their life unnecessarily. 

Also, if you have a "smart" charger like the Maha, just let it charge normally, and top them off before storing. 

It's always better to store batteries in a charged state, no matter what the chemistry. 

The old wives tale of fully discharging nicads every so often is from the days of crappy chargers and poor usage that causes internal shorts and damage to the battery, incorrectly referred to as "memory". 

Regards, Greg


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

I spoke with a Dewalt battery specialist, and he said to NOT fully discharge newer batteries. It is easier on them to only need a partial charge. Granted, this is a spokesman for one brand, but I would be surprised if they all didn't share the same characteristics in that regard. I also agree with Greg and Tony in that batteries fair better that they should be stored after topping off the charge. 

Take care, 
Matt


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking of charge - discharge cycles. 
Sanyo claim 1,000 for NiCd. 
Sanyo claim 500 for NiMh. 
Treated the same way, you do the math to work out which are better value.


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## Budd (Mar 22, 2008)

You have seen the light then Alan? Good thing you have because it looks like the club extension will be in aluminium which could have been a problem for track power (now I know somebody will come on here and slag me for that statement, I suggest you start another thread if you disagree), you ought to talk to Ben, he seems to be doing whatever it is correctly, I have yet to see his batteries go flat or have to recharge them on the day. 
I have gone away from those NiCd packs I was using, I bought a Makita drill with Li-ion batteries and use the batteries in the trains when I am not drilling holes, they work well, very light weight in my trail car and charge up quickly. 
Look forward to you getting back from muggy Darwin. 
Wayne


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

When I was using NiCads, I always just charged the batteries with a peak charger right before I needed them. It charged them in 20 - 25 minutes, so in the time it took me to move rolling stock out to the railroad and clear switches, I had batteries ready to go. When I was done running, I just left them in whatever state they were. I don't know how many cycles we got from them, but we had packs that we got 5 or 6 years out of before we noticed them not holding as much of a charge. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin. 

The procedure you adopted explains why the number of cycles was reduced. 
Rapid charging partially discharged NiCd batteries is a direct cause of the (so called) *"memory effect"*. 
I have had and know of NiCd batteries that have lasted for 10+ years.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've studied and designed with rechargeable batteries since about the late 70's. I met a senior engineer who really knew about batteries and explained the "myth" of "nicad memory", explaining how what actually happens supported the "memory" story. 

There are bits of "truth" to the myth, but it's not the right explanation for what really happens, and why discharging fully and recharging "seems" to help. 

Nowadays, smart chargers and better understanding of what really happens inside the battery can make that 1,000 cycles a reality. I have some 20 year old nicads that work fine. I have 1 year old nicads in a piece of electronics with a poor charger and a really inappropriate usage of them that have died. 

Nicads are actually great batteries, but the drive for lighter and smaller (and the outlawing of nicads in some places) means things are moving to lithiums. Also, as the public accepts fewer charge cycles as ok, of course the battery people make more money. 

It's all progress... sort of... 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Is planned obsolescence not wonderful?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

These guys are not dumb... how many people have had to buy a new laptop battery for close to $200... or gel cells in "standby" duty where they have actually never been used (because they were never "exercised" and sulphated)... 

Yep, more expensive batteries with shorter lifespans... but we want our electronics lighter and smaller... so we effectively will pay more. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Rapid charging partially discharged NiCd batteries is a direct cause of the (so called) "memory effect". 
That's why we switched to a peak charger as soon as they became affordable. They're specifically designed--so sayeth the literature--to avoid that. We did notice quite an improvement in battery life after moving away from the simple 15-minute jam chargers we had been using for the first few years of using NiCads. That practice definitely led to overcharging which I'm sure led to the premature death of a number of our battery packs. The reality is dad's got locos with 20-year-old NiCads installed in them that still hold their charge quite nicely. But I hesitate to hold them up as an example of battery life because they run three, four times a year at the most. Some probably don't run but once a year. If anything, they serve as an illustration as to how long the battery technology can be dormant and still work. 

The question you have to ask yourself is how often do you realistically run your trains? How many times a year will you actually charge your batteries? If you only get out to run trains once a week, even assuming you do that 52 weeks a year, that's 52 charge cycles per year. Personally, I'd love to be in a position to run even half that often. I probably cycle each battery pack 10, maybe 15 times a year at the most. Rated at 500 cycles, that gives me 30, 50 years? Perhaps in theory, but my gut tells me I'll be swapping them out before then. 

Later, 

K


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Information I garnered from battery experts that really know is shared below....

The primary failure mode of Ni-Cd cells (outside of user abuse) is separator deterioration. This will occur in all Ni-Cd batteries as they age. The separator breaks down allowing the plates (electrodes) to touch and short out the battery. The number of cycles you put on your battery is secondary in the life equation, again, assuming you don't abuse them by high rate over charge, vibration or exposure to high temperature. 

As the separator deteriorates (oxidizes) self discharge rate of the battery increases significantly. A pack that looses 15% or more capacity over a week of open circuit rest is at risk. A pack that looses 10% overnight is used up. Check your pack with a cycler or some technique that gives you the amount of capacity available immediately after charge and then (after fully charging again) after a rest period of 5 to 7 days (NO, this isn't MEMORY!). 

Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good info... although the separator is normally an insulator that is porous to the electrolyte, never heard about it oxidizing... 

The separator has to be an insulator, and insulators normally do not oxidize, as they are typically glass or plastic:

*http://www.powhouse.com/products02.htm* 


A piece of advice: find some more experts that also know how "dendrites" apply to nicad failure... if you get someone who knows about that, then you are really talking to an expert. 

By the way, "dendrites" are part of the reason that "zapping" cells sometimes works.... a bad separator would be unaffected by that... (one of the reasons the myth of "memory" exists, when it's really dendrites and why they formed) 

It's actually all very interesting how there are "pieces" of "truth" to the myth, but most of the "common understanding" is flawed. 

Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg, 

Perhaps you would share your understanding of oxidizing? 

Oxidation is defined as the interaction between oxygen molecules and all the different substances they may come in contact with, if a single electron is lost oxidation is in play… Oxidation is commonly associated with RUST, however not in my example! 

Polyamide and Polypropylene are commonly used as “Separators” or as you note insulators. The battery industry acknowledges and or refers to the aforementioned insulators as “Separators”. 

Heat is the cells enemy and causes the separator and seals to weaken, which in turn accelerates changes in the plate material, the hydrolysis or degradation of the separator material is greatly accelerated at high temperatures. Accordingly this leads to premature cell failure. 

I believe in this discussion your “dendrites” is actually realized as cadmium migration (CM). This is a transfer of cadmium metal through the porous separator structure to form a conductive bridge between the electrodes, me thinks. And yes “zapping” the cells or introducing like potential losses does help to minimize CM. 

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Greg, 

I just perused through your Powerhouse link. They make reference to “memory” effects as well as other stuff. I have more thoughts on memory and its place in the scheme of things; I’ll share more later when I have some time to ponder things long forgotten. 

Michael


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

When ordering you Li chemistry batteries remember that there is now a minimum $25 HAZMAT charge added to the shipping. So now that $200 laptop battery is $225! GRRR!!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Al, where are you getting that from? I've put in two separate orders for Li-Ion batteries in the past two weeks, and none charged me anything beyond standard shipping rates. I just checked the companies' web sites today, and none mentioned any new charges either. 

Later, 

K


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

This week I placed an order for 30 NiMh cells. When going to checkout a screen came up stating that a HAZMAT charge would be added for LiXX. 

Here is the link, https://www.batteryspace.com/cart.aspx 

Of course this IS California, land of fruits and nuts and wonderful government, but I think this is a federal thing.


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Here's another link. http://electronicdesign.com/article/power/shipping_li_ion_batteries_watch_for_changing_rules.aspx 

Once again we are being had. Next thing I expect is a HAZMAT charge to carry a laptop or cell phone on an airplane.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I recall reading something about a new Federal shipping rule regarding Lithium battery technology not being allowed on aircraft dues to its insidious volatile potential.... 

And yeah you gotta love the tree huggers here in California protecting us from ourselves and all the evil out there... 

Michael


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

But we are PROTECTED! AIN"T IT WONDERFUL? 

Anybody had their train battery blow up?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I ordered from All-Battery.com, which did not (and by the test order I just placed) still does not mention or charge a "hazmat" charge. I just did a test order at batteryspace.com, too, and while I got the "hazmat charge" screen, I proceeded with checkout without selecting anything, and they charged me only the standard $8 shipping. The phrasing on the batteryspace.com website is vague. It says "to avoid delay..." not "item will not be shipped without..." I don't know what would happen if you didn't select anything. Would they come back and insist you add the charge? I think I'll continue to deal with All-Battery for the time being. 

Later, 

K


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

I suspect all battery suppliers will implement this new fee. Batteryspace may just be more on top of it. 

And don't forget that your trains come labled as containing substances know to cause cancer, so please don't eat any car. 

I don't want to get started on a rant but this gauls my ox!


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the tips guys! All good info. 

Wayne, Darwin is going well. The battery bits are slowly coming together, just having trouble with my G-wire and Lenz combination right now. I’m putting them into a Bachman 2-8-0, it will be a while until I get it to the club for a run. 

Kevin, I think I will be lucky to run train once every few months. The way my work is and not having a garden railway makes it very difficult. Right now I’m working in Darwin and home is in Adelaide (Australia), those places are 3000km apart. For this reason I wanted to know how best to store them. 
Alan


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Guys, the Hazmat charge is for lithium batteries only, not when you purchase NiCd's or Nimh's. All-battery (AKA Tenergy) & batteryspace (AKA Powerizer) both charge through FedEx higher shipping charges when you order lithium cells. I for one don't accrue this charge because we purchased LG, Sanyo, GP, & BYD cells directly from China, via UPS at the airport. 

Sorry for your extra charges... 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I read somewhere that the HAZMAT charge applied to "air" shipping. If you want it quick, it goes by air and gets whacked. If you can wait a week, it goes by truck/train, no extra charge.


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

George, it appears to me that this affects ALL modes of commercial transportation. There appears to be a higher charge for air than for ground. Also it appears to be on hold for 60 days while they get their act together. Here is the closest link I could find. Big brother strikes again. 

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/hazmat/complyhmregs.htm#hm


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Yes, it's on all lithium products whether you ship ground or air. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Translation - buy 'em quick before shipping goes up! I just ordered another pack, since I had to replace the PC board on one of my packs and figured if they were going to ship something to me, they may as well include another pack before the shipping gets crazy. 

BTW, there's new Li-Ion technology announced just this past month that's reported to double the overall life (not capacity) of Li-Ion batteries. Hitachi is starting to use manganese (plus an additive) as the cathode instead of cobalt, which purportedly will give the batteries a 10-year lifespan instead of the current 5-year expected lifespan. It's also cheaper than cobalt, so perhaps that may bring prices down? Probably not... 

Later, 

K


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## LogSkidder01 (Jul 30, 2009)

The revision to the Hazardous Materials Regulations will increase the requirements for ground transportation but only marginally, and definitely should not incur a $25 material handling fee. Even if shipping by air. I am currently working on a project to revise shipping procedures to address the proposed changes to Title 49 CFR Parts 172, 173 and 175 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-281.pdf). 

Small ground shipments up to "30 kg (66 pounds)" and meeting clause "(d) Exceptions for surface transport. When transported by motor vehicle, rail car, or vessel ..." only require adequate packaging, additional labeling and documentation. The revised shipping process we have developed will incur nearly zero additional costs. The current packaging meets the proposed regulations. The invoice is printer capable of printing two sided documents with the back page often used for adds and instructions. For shipment which include batteries, the back page will include the HAZMAT instructions. Package labels are printed with an inline ink-jet printer which is capable of printing the â€˜â€˜LITHIUM BATTERIESâ€"FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT ABOARD AIRCRAFTâ€™â€™ with additional small print. 

The only issue left hanging is how shippers are planning to address the revised regulation. Some have indicated that there may be a small additional charge as currently incurred for Classified materials. For one recent 2 kg ground shipment of Class 9 material the charge was a whopping $1.09. Not a big dent in the pocket. 

*But the real cost may NOT be shipping! *. The proposed regulations include additional "Type" and certification testing or retesting for the manufacturers. One manufacture has already indicated that prices "may" go up and / or deliveries may be delayed. There was also an indication that some batteries could be pulled from the market if testing issues could not be resolved (I do not understand why, or it may just be an excuse to pull some older products). Some suppliers are taking a wait and see approach (i.e. head in sand), so when the final regulation is published they will be playing catch-up (i.e. Expect delays). 

Al, 

Your typical laptop batteries are exempt, unless you carry a trunk load? 

Ken


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## alfischer (Mar 8, 2010)

Typically you con interpret a statement of "Prices MAY go up" as Hey, we can make a buck off this! And blame the law! GO for it!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You mean like charging for baggage as a way to offset $130/barrel fuel prices that somehow stayed in place when oil fell back down to $60? Funny how that works... 

Later, 

K


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