# Bachmann 81396 Eureka & Palisade 4-4-0 Steam Locomotive & Tender.



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I have never seen either one of theese. I did see once a Bachmann very similar locomotive , also of the Spectrum line and was very impressed with the high build quality. I have ovserved photos of both very carefully.
By looking at the photos it appears to me that the Hartland is a better job, more detailed and better built, but photos are deseiving. I like that the Hartland is totaly USA made. This is often indicative of quality. The Bachmann however is twice as expensive which points to better build quality, but this extreme diference in price when new might be because the Bachmann has a tender and the Hartland does not and because the Bachmann has a smoke unit. All in all I like the looks of the Hartland a bit more, bit then again I have only seen photos. Which one is a better quality product? If you must choose only one. Which one would it be ?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The Bachmann is more detailed but the gear may eventually crack. The Hartland is more durable.

Andrew


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Some of the Heartland locomotives do have a Tender, Jupiter for one. The new Bachmann's are full of electronics, smoke, lights, plug and play socket, chuff sensor. HLW extremely simple, lights.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

*Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0*
- Accurate 1/20.3 scale model of an actual locomotive
- better detailed, more fine detail, than HLW.
- Can have reliability issues, mainly broken gear problem. Can be fixed, then runs fine.
- made in China

*Hartland 4-4-0*
- Not a scale model of any real specific locomotive
- more of a "freelance" model.
- ambiguous scale, roughly 1/24-ish
- not as detailed as Bachmann 4-4-0.
- reliability and operation said to be excellent. No real issues with HLW operational quality.
- Made in the USA

Operationally, the Bachman spectrum engines are infamous for cracked gears. The main plastic gear splits and breaks, making the locomotive inoperable. but! it can be replaced with a much better gear, and then there are no more operational or reliability issues after that.
Hartland has no such problems..they just run.
so from a reliability and build-quality perspective, Hartland wins. 

The NEW (and current) version of the Spectrum 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 have metal gears! So Bachmann has fixed the gear problem.
But you need to know which version you are buying to know which gear you have..
Dealers can still have a mix of both versions, and can be selling both versions, new.

My opinion:
The Bachmann 4-4-0 is a much nicer *looking* locomotive. Better detailed, and better proportions.
The Hartland has a bit of a "caroonish" look IMO, proportions are odd, it sits too high.
So from an aesthetic viewpoint, Bachmann wins.

Bachmann:









HLW:









The Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-0 (same loco as the 4-4-0 with a different wheel arrangement) is IMO the single "best looking" locomotive in the entire Large Scale market..I have two, love them! But..the gear had to be replaced on both. but now that that is done, I dont anticipate any further problems with them.

Bachmann spectrum 2-6-0:









Scot


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Just thought I'd post photos of the exact locomotives in question and thank everyone for their contributions so far. Everyone seems to agree, Hartman more reliable, Bachmann more detailed. 
I would say that looking at the photos the Hartland looks more detailed, just goes to show that photos can be deceiving.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

How come my photos are so small and everyone's else's so big!


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

How big and how expensive a job is changing gears from plastic to metal on the Bachmann?


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Someone please tell me how to edit post in this renewed forum. I hate not correcting typing errors.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Your images are thumbnails by default when uploaded to MLS. If you click on the thumbnail to enlarge then click on that it will display with it's own URL (web address). You can then add that address within the forum post with the 'Insert Image' button. (the one with mountain and sun). Then the image will be displayed inline with the text.

The Bachmann gears are simple enough to do but very fiddly. Especially getting the valve eccentrics to operate in prototypical sequence. Take detailed photos and notes regarding the eccentrics along the way. Suitable 'delrin' gears are available from: http://www.nwsl.com/
you won't be able to get replacement Bachmann metal gears. The metal gear boxes are only on the most recent models like the Grizzly Flats 2-6-0 etc.
Do your own research on this site for the correct ones to order. https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=CnO_WMuLMfTDXsSMvLgD#q=site:+mylargescale.com+replacing+gears+on+bachmann+2-6-0&*
The below video (4 parts) will give you the routine although I do remember, he gets lost when doing the eccentrics. 





You can edit your post by pushing the 'Edit' button when logged on.

Andrew


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

T3;

The HLW locomotive you show is the "La Porte" Forney locomotive. I have one of these, and I believe that they are a bit more "dolled up" than other locomotives in the HLW catalog. Mine is a very good runner, but has not run much lately, due to no fault of its own. I just tend to run my live steamers more frequently nowadays.

Yours,
David Meashey


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Hartland's little 4-4-0 heritage goes all the way back to the toy like Kalamazoo 4-4-0 that was introduced in the early 1980's. Its come a long ways in the cosmetic department since then. It is the only 4-4-0 that can handle the tighest curve radius commonly seen on the market. The Bachmann needs much large radius curves to operate. On a very small railway with tight curves, the little Hartland, paired with matching rolling stock is a perfect match. For the larger railways with broad curves, the Bachmann is a better option if you want a more scale engine. Also remember with all those extra details, comes at the expense of a more fragile model that must be handled carefully. The Hartland is more in the lines of LGB brand detailing and robustness. Made in the USA right here in the state I live in is a huge plus in my opinion. Simple and robust trains to run in your garden or under the Christmas tree. That being said, If Hartland wants to step up to the plate in the painting dept, I would order one of thiers painted in the E&P colors tomorrow if they announced it. My railway cannot handle the Bachmann 4-4-0, but I love the intricate paint colors thier models have! Mike


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Dave Meashey said:


> T3;
> 
> The HLW locomotive you show is the "La Porte" Forney locomotive. I have one of these, and I believe that they are a bit more "dolled up" than other locomotives in the HLW catalog. Mine is a very good runner, but has not run much lately, due to no fault of its own. I just tend to run my live steamers more frequently nowadays.
> 
> ...


And it has been discontinued.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I've added this to my collection today, it has not arrived yet. The advice I received in this thread has been crucial in making my decision. Thank you all.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Wow what a beautiful locomotive, dusty and no original box but by the look of the wheels they haven't touched track. Only complaint it was not very well packed so some small pieces broke or came off. The coupler I can fix, the golden piece I can reatach but the other bits. Where do they go?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

The large plate-like piece appears to be a "tender apron," the plate that runs between the tender deck and the footplate of the locomotive cab.

Hope this helps,
David Meashey


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

From top to bottom:
A spare knuckle coupler.
As Dave said the footplate tender apron. I see it has one of it's hinge pins on the side broken off which holds it on.
The plated top for the sand dome next to the bell.
The other bits?? They are the extra mystery bits you always get with Bachmann products. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks David, thanks Andrew. Tomorrow I'll see if I can find where the footplate tender apron is attached.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Here is a vid by an autistic 18 year old that I,d like to share with you. https://youtu.be/B2vd5Hi9zfI


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Photos. The whistle and footplate tender apron glued back on. Not sure which is the upside of the footplate, I have the hinges on the down side. 
Broken knuckle coupler part will be reinforced with copper plate and screws since it must pull all cars.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> How big and how expensive a job is changing gears from plastic to metal on the Bachmann?


Bachmann has much improved gears, now using brass.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You guessed right on the Footplate/tender apron. The textured surface was for better footing as the fireman would step on it to get a shovel full of coal... or another chunk of wood.

John


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT. You can't easily change the plastic gears to metal ones on the earlier Bachmann locomotives. The gearbox reduction gears are also plastic. The newer models with metal gears are a different design and the parts are not available. The best you can do is replace the plastic axle gear which is prone to splitting with a 'delrin' one from NWSL. Bachmann have a replacement axle with brass gear for the 2-8-0 Consolidation (outside frame).

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

O boy! You all warned me about the main cogwheel, but I'm such an optimist. I was sure I would not have that trouble. At least I'm as prepared as can be from reading all your axle gear advice. For sure the darned thing is cracked because I tested the locomotive and it sounds like a car that won't start and doesn't move. The reason for the advertisers warning "This item has not been tested and is sold as is." Is now very clear.
Well at least it's clean, the whistle is on and the knuckle coupler is fixed and strong. I've glued the footplate tender apron twice and twice it's come unglued. I'll get it in the end. I hope it's just a matter of ordering the delrin' gear available from: http://www.nwsl.com/ and installing it according to instructions.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The seller also wrote " Features include an LED headlight, load synchronized LED's in firebox and ashpan, smoke generator with on.off switch, complete backhead detail, fully operating Stephenson valve gear, metal wheels and axles." It would be nice to have the instructions manual. Or at least to know what the switches on the front do and how to operate the smoke generator.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The switches are marked with molded in writing.
One is to reverse the polarity/running direction and the other for when using the smoke generator. Best to turn off when not running smoke so it does not burn out.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I have to order a few myself and recall discussion regarding the NWSL replacement gear being 24 tooth. The original Bachmann gear from a Spectrum 2-6-0 has 25 teeth as pictured below. You can't just remove a tooth and keep the same diameter, so that puzzles me. 
Can anyone advise regarding this, who has used the NWSL gear for 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 repairs?










Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I second Andrew's important motion. Who has used the NWSL gear for 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 repairs?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> I second Andrew's important motion. Who has used the NWSL gear for 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 repairs?


I have, and so has Kevin and a few others. And Andrew is correct - the 25 tooth gear sold for the 2-8-0 is what I used. 
http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=1226&categoryId=90

Kevin warns that the 3 he took apart are all 25 tooth:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?topic=21832.0;wap2

The procedure is detailed here and works for 24 and 25 tooth gears:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,19904.0.html

As Kevin said, take it apart and count the teeth. I took a leap of faith and ordered the gear first - and the 25t fitted and solved my problem.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you. Take it apart, count 24 or 25 teeth, then order according to specified above. The only thing that bothers me now is having to leave the loco in pieces while waiting fot the part. It is always best to put stuff back together right away. However one has to do what one has to do.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

OK, so NWSL have both the 24 and 25 teeth gears. I have replaced a split gear with a replacement Bachmann gear once and now have a few others that need doing but I knew there was some issue regarding the amount of teeth on the recommended NWSL gear. It's a real curve ball ending up with the wrong gear. Thanks for the clarification Pete. I will quote Kevin's words here from the Bachmann forum. 

"Kevin Strong:
You can order a Delrin replacement gear from Northwest Short Line. The 4-4-0/2-6-0 gear (24-tooth) is part #2223-6, and the 2-8-0 (25-tooth) replacement gear is part #2226-6. Note, however, that despite NWSL indicating that the 4-4-0/2-6-0 gears are 24-tooth, I have yet to remove one that was 24-tooth. I've had three apart and they're all 25-tooth. Others have reported the same thing. I don' t know if there were two different gearboxes or what the deal is. If yours is slipping or broken, take it out, count the teeth, and order the appropriate one."

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

I sent NWSL an email over a week ago asking about the 24 25 dilema , no answer yet. I imagine that if the experts at Bachmann don't know for sure no one does. After going over the instructions and the video I've decided to spend the extra $11 and order both the 24 and the 25 teeth gears. I don't like the idea of leaving the loco with it's guts hanging out until the gear arrives. I want to do it all in one go so that how to put it back together is very fresh in my memory when I do it. I will report here informing if mine was a 24 or a 25. I suppose the question to post in this forum, Bachmann's and all large scale forums is. Has anyone ever come across a 4-4-0 or a 2-6-0 with an axle gear with 24 teeth?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm sure NWSL have been told several times over the years but you know how it goes... 
'Cognitive dissonance' is ripe in the world. Sorry about the pun. 

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Looked it up, very interesting concept, this is not the place for politics but can't help thinking politicians all over the globe, specialy lately, must be swiming in cognitive dissonance.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes the cogs don't mesh no matter what you do. 

Andrew


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I don't like the idea of leaving the loco with it's guts hanging out


I didn't either, so I ordered the 25 tooth, on the basis that Kevin was batting 3:0 on them. Worst case I'd have to wait for a 24 to arrive. Mine was a 25 tooth also.


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