# Melting Ties



## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

As many of you know I have built two portable tracks that have given pleasure to many steamers for years. The most annoying aspect for me of providing a portable track at steamups is the repairs needed due to melted ties likely caused by alky and coal fired locos left to stand too long in one spot. My experience has been with Sunset Valley dual gauge and AMS standard gauge ties.
I am contemplating a third portable track and have some Aristocraft sectional track which I can re-bend to fit the new track frame. I would use Llagas Creek tie plate plugs and rail to provide the 32mm gauge that many of my friends enjoy as I have done with my backyard track. To me the Aristo ties seem thicker and more "rubbery" and could possibly resist the melting phenomenon I have found previously. 
So here's the question, what have all of you experienced as far as melted ties are concerned with various track brands?
Thanks,
Tom


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I have told the group here that if they melt ties they have to do the work replacing them, I have the extra ties. Over a period of 5 years, I am the only one who has melted ties on my railroad.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Tom,
I'm building a portable layout myself and I plan on using some Aristocraft sectional track. My suspicion is that that the plastic track Aristo uses melts pretty much the same way as the others. But if i find out differently, I will let you know.

Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Tom,
One of the 'old' portable tracks that was used at the original National Spring Steamups in California in the late 90's, used Llagas Creek track that had ties made of nylon (I think that is what it was) and it seemed to be bullet proof. An alcohol fire could burn on and around it for quite a while and from what I remember there was no evidence of melting.
When I congratulated Gary Broeder of such great ties, he explained that it was just a small test batch done as it wore out the mold too much to actually offer them that way!
Too bad - but then I guess he would never have sold any replacement tie strips!
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## cocobear1313 (Apr 27, 2012)

The AC ties do melt and burn, fairly quickly as I found


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I have many areas on my lay out with melted ties. One thing that I have found is that although the center melts, the track usually stays in gauge. In some areas the melted plastic literally locks the track in place. Yes, it looks bad, but no big deal.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, when I had thoughts of hand laying track in my burn tests the old redwood was the top performer another good one was white oak. How about in the steaming area you do a wood tie?


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom,
One way to avoid melted ties is to ban any Grasshopper from running!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce,

Or Aster Panniers running pure meths.*

*Ask me how I know that.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Someone adjusted John's Challenger wicks at cabin fever. Now his track that was previously melt-free has many, many newly fused track ties. I'm just glad the cab didn't also bust into flames!!!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

I suppose that I should be thankful that the flame-ups I had when first lighting-off my new Regner DeWinton went UP. (AND I did not have my face over the stack.)

But I have managed to trim my eyebrows on several occasions with 1:1 Porters. (Note to Self: Always open the blower slightly BEFORE opening the firebox door when the locomotive is just standing.)

Perhaps this is an opportunity for some clever manufacturer to develop silicon or fused fiberglass replacement ties.

Best of luck,
David Meashey


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

No experience with alcohol or coal so maybe a naive question. Given either can melt ties when standing, see your local steamup bay. Are the melted ties on mainlines from the loco stopping (for whatever reason) or can ties be melted simply by a coal or alcohol passing over ties? 


Dan, Do you think your policy of, "melt 'em, fix 'em", has been a deterrent or it's just your warm and friendly self? ;-))


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The only problem I have had was a lineside fire caused by a spillage of alcohol next to the track... no ties were damaged... but I suppose that ties could be damaged by such a fire if it were directly on the ties.

However, I think I prefer that to what a gas fired loco can do in the opposite direction... see the attached image.


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## roadranger (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow! FIRE IN THE HOLE!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Or how about this one...









​


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> No experience with alcohol or coal so maybe a naive question. Given either can melt ties when standing, see your local steamup bay. Are the melted ties on mainlines from the loco stopping (for whatever reason) or can ties be melted simply by a coal or alcohol passing over ties?
> 
> 
> Dan, Do you think your policy of, "melt 'em, fix 'em", has been a deterrent or it's just your warm and friendly self? ;-))


Chris, I have three coal fired locos, run them frequently and have never melted any ties with them. It really depends on how close the grate is to the ties and possibly how long you are parked in one spot. They do tend to dribble coal ash all over the place, but that is normally comparatively cool. Two of my coal burner locos are home rolled, and the third is an Accucraft. 

Alcohol is a different story... If the wicks are loosley packed it is much easier to get "flooding", more often this happens when the loco is ready (or getting ready) to go. When the engine is moving there seems to be less of a chance of "flooding". What's happening is, even if the alcohol sump (or the alcohol level provided by the chicken feed tube inside the sump) is lower that the wick tubes, capillary action causes more alcohol to flow up thru the wick as is not completly burned. The excess alcohol, at this time on fire, flows onto the track. This is exacerbated by the heat, and similar to a car engine parked on a freeway in rush hour, much more heat builds up when the loco is parked. Getting a good alcohol fire by adjusting wick height and number (or thickness in the tube) is a balancing act that can take a while to get right. 
If the wicks are too tight, not enough alcohol will flow and you might not even be able to create enough steam to operate the blower.
I've read once somewhere it is better to think of the wicks a a valve than just a place where the alcohol burns.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> The only problem I have had was a lineside fire caused by a spillage of alcohol next to the track... no ties were damaged... but I suppose that ties could be damaged by such a fire if it were directly on the ties.
> 
> However, I think I prefer that to what a gas fired loco can do in the opposite direction... see the attached image.


That's a great picture. Notice the head is out of focus due to it's speed of recoil!!


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, Dare I bring up the night at DH 2 years ago?


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Kovacjr said:


> Dave, Dare I bring up the night at DH 2 years ago?


In my recollection, I think most of those flames were not accidental!  And no track ties were harmed in the making of any videos.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

seadawg said:


> That's a great picture. Notice the head is out of focus due to it's speed of recoil!!


That was a simple 'lucky shot' of an unfortunate (but common) event. My camera is slow to store images and I was just shooting photos as quickly as I could while my friend was prepping his engine and starting to light it. The flame to the human eye was not nearly as bad as the camera captured it... the camera being more sensitive to infrared than the human eye. What "I" saw was just a thin blue swirly cloud, but the camera picked up the infrared heat and the exposure time was so long it shows the "cloud" over the entire path it traveled. And of course, my friend is blurred from his "recoil" and that protects his identity in the photo.

That type of flare-up is burning liquid. The cause is trying to light the fire before the residual liquid (that has condensed in the pipe from the fuel tank to the burner) has been blown off and evaporated from inside the flue. After filling the tank, the engineer should momentarily open the fuel valve to blow any liquid fuel out of the feed pipe, then wait a moment for that liquid to evaporate from the flue in front of the burner (a puff or two of breath at an open smokebox door or fanning at it with your hand will help speed that up) then open the fuel valve again and light the fire. If you try to light it before that, there will be droplets of liquid fuel (mist) in the air and you get that kind of burning "cloud".

Of course, it is best to not have your face directly over the end of the engine whenever you are lighting the fire.


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## Alan Wright (Jan 9, 2008)

No one mentioned that educating the people running any locomotive how to set and maintain their chosen form of firing and how to manage it when in use would stop 99% of all track fires. 
Prevention should be the focus not repair.

Alan Wright
Ontario
Canada


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Melted ties are just comes with running live steam. 
Have not found a way to avoid it.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is how you melt ties  Note fire from front of smoke box too


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Was Art in a hurry to run ??


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

If I remember right, He was getting His charcoal going before adding coal and had used *way, way* to much lighter fluid. He has since become one of the best coal engineers around these parts.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

Just got through proving an Aster gas fired can melt ties too. Big burp of steam oil does it ever time. Not the first melted tie and I am sure it won't be the last.


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