# New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

A new "Air Car" is being developed to work like a steam locomotive, but uses air instead of steam: 

 air car


----------



## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

Here more on Air Car History. It gives some history about use of compressed air to drive different modes of transportation. 
I found it rather interesting about the air trains used in the mines to minimize the danger. 
Here a link to information from MDI MDInternational and information from the US company  Zero Pollution Motors  
Here one last link for MDI  Portal for MDI  
Herb


----------



## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Interesting. 

Alot of excellent ideas have come and have gone. The gone part due to big oil interference. 

What a crime.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

4500psi? Ooooookay. First, it takes a REAL powerful compressor (multistage) to produce that kind of pressure. Second, if you think safety inspections are a PitA, you ain seen NUTHIN compared to when you'll have to have a pressure vessel like THAT recertified. Third, have you ever seen what happens when you knock the valve off an oxygen bottle? like ROCKET time... and that's at about 1/4 the pressure...so what's gonna happen when you wreck one of these things? 

I'll pass.


----------



## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's video about the AirCar






Enjoy 
Herb


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

In event of an accident the carbon fiber air tank "just splits", huh?... and just where does all that stored energy go? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif Did they forget there is always an "equal and opposite reaction"? Oh that's right, they're the experts, don't ask questions. Hope there is good rollover protection when the car flips from the sudden air jet. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

I've been thinking about a personal vehicle (alternate energy transportation) for sixty years, all on paper save for an early attempt to attach my dog to my Radio Flyer. A number of drawbacks at once became apparent, chief being the defiance of the motive power. 

With six-plus decades of age and experience, I've concluded that most folks dreaming of 'alternate energy' vehicles miss the obvious: interfacing with existing technology and social acceptance. Skip the technical issues a focus on human engineering for a moment: 

1. What about sitting in traffic for hours on a hot/cold day? Where's the air conditioner/heater? With two or three children aboard. 

2. These things, until the H.P. equivalent of at least a modern 4-cylinder gas engine is developed, are not practical on a daily basis. Consider the motorcycle. 

3. They are inherently unsafe because of lack of size and mass. Are you going to load your family in what will have to be essentially a polymer eggshell and take off down the highway? Why are SUV's so popular? 

4. There is a real, though indirect, connection between 'alt-enery' vehicles and government coercion. One example is the 'safety standards' that keep otherwise very functional and inexpensive Third World cars out of the country. Another is the herd instinct of people in a generalized way. Joggers and bicyclists report abuse. A few deserve it. 

5. The best solution to the 'transportation problem' is the internal combustion engine as we now have it. Otherwise, something else would force its way into the marketplace--which itself is a fundamental, dynamic entity with real power though outside the point I'm trying to make--despite real (and imagined) 'vested interests'. A review of the problems of social acceptance of very early autos is a sufficient example. ("Hey Mister, get a horse!") 

6. My own thinking consists of essentially a 'stretch riding lawnmower' with the following modifications: 10 mi max range on electric, 25mph top speed, minimal shelter from the elements, sprung suspension, sidewalk or at best sidestreet operating environment, lead acid battery power (two) with solar cells for recharge only, a ~6 hp 1 cyl engine/generator for standby power and recharging for extended range and when away from home, since the sun doesn't shine every day in my neck of the woods, fore & aft seating for two people, and a trunk large enough to carry a week's worth of groceries. It'll look like what it is: a homemade contraption, just like the first cars looked like horse-drawn buggies. But it'll fill the basic transportation needs for two retired folks. 

The features I'm interested in are: 

1) Simplicity of design tending toward home construction. 

2) Ease of maintenance and repair. 

3) Meet basic requirements defined as grocery-getting, trips to doctor, to church or idling about town with the ability to haul a 200-300# payload. 

Why bother since it will be inherently inefficient? 

It'll be cheap to operate, possible to maintain with basic skills, and very affordable. It's real economic value will be in lessened use of the 'real' Detroit Plastic. 

Will it ever be popular? No. The early Tin Lizzies are high-end collector's items, today. Would you drive one daily as your only vehicle? 

Les W.


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

When I was a kid my best friend's grandfather had an "auto red bug" which was a totally cool little electric go cart. I remeber it looking kind of like a stutz bearcat. I want one of those for runs to the grocery store 

I don't know--most of my car trips are solo, short distance trips. I run to the hardware store, I go to the grocery store or the bank. Lots of times I'm taking one child to a friends house. We have a Mini cooper for just that reason. My wife commutes to work in it, but it makes more sens than an SUV for most of the uses we have. 

Depending on what it cost, I'd be very interested in the idea. For really short trips I don't need a heater, or AC. 
I suspect the problem as mentioned, would be compressing the air--it will take more energy than the car saves. As to danger, driving around with a tank full of gasoline and regularly exploding it is, on paper, an unbelievably dangerous thing to do and it took a long time to make modern cars as safe as they are.


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

I saw a similar vehicle on some future car show. "No emissions!" They never mentioned the electric needed to compress all the air. 

The same applies to hydrogen vehicles: "Where you going to get the hydrogen?"


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Guys, 

This looks practical.. Go look @ "Max" in the latest issue of Mother Earth News.. They have not talked about cost yet, but maybe in the next issue.. If you build it yourself you can get around a lot or "regs".. 

BulletBob


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Thats the same MDI MiniCAT I've been wanting to get my hands on for over a year now, be a perfect commuter car for me


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

I suspect the problem as mentioned, would be compressing the air--it will take more energy than the car saves.
the video says the French version has an onboard compressor that will fill the tanks in about 4 hours for $2.00 worth of electricity. Sounds pretty good.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bob, 

Go to http://www.rqriley.com/license.htm and take a look at requirements for licensing and insuring a homebuilt. I learned a lot I didn't know, primarily why guys bother to electrify old Geo Metros and Fords. That's a lot of iron to drag around on battery power. You have to title, license and insure a vehicle driven on the streets, at least in MO. And it must meet regulations that are pretty close to Federal, in most states. That's the gist of the article. By building a 3-wheeler, you get lots of breaks on the regs, though. 

That's why I chose a narrow enough wheelbase to work on a sidewalk. The longest trip I'd have to make on a routine basis is 2.5 miles. Grocery, hardware, doctor and favorite fast food are less than that distance. 

My take on compressed air is that it is wholly impractical for general public use. Compressed air for mine engines was a good solution until electricity became practical, as I understand it. 

About exploding gas tanks: the infamous Pinto aside, the statistical rate of gas tank explosions from accidents seems remarkably low, compared to the number out there. Perhaps they're underreported. 

Heh, I too remember a tricked-out battery sidewalk job from when I was a teenager. (And public Go Kart tracks, and races in supermarket parking lots--showing my age). No suspension. 
That's great for young folks, but I've made enough beer runs on my riding lawnmower to not want to continue doing that. (One mile). 

The thing that I'm looking for is a good 24V electric motor sufficient to move ~900#, gross weight, ten miles w/o a huge battery array. Might not even be possible. I'm no physicist, for sure. Don't even know anyone who can make the calculations. 

Les


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Oh! It runs on aer. I hadn't watched the video yet


----------



## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

 [url]http://www.rqriley.com/license.htm
When I was a kid my best frie...off the freeways in Vics part of the world...


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Les, 

Before you get bummed out, take a week & read the laws of Mo.. You will be suprised I am sure.. The same is true in Ks.. 

BulletBob


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 

In your post, your 4th comment: 
4. There is a real, though indirect, connection between 'alt-enery' vehicles and government coercion. One example is the 'safety standards' that keep otherwise very functional and inexpensive Third World cars out of the country. Another is the herd instinct of people in a generalized way. Joggers and bicyclists report abuse. A few deserve it. 

I was reading a few years ago about a guy who was trying to start importing chinese made cars. The retail price would have been something in the $3500 range for a brand new car. That would have killed all other car sales for most of the auto market. On the other hand, it allows the the current auto makers to keep making their current margins. What was interesting to me when I was in China a few years back was the number of Buicks and VW's. I guess the Chinese auto makers have ramped up production to meet the growing demand. 

I am confused, however, by your last two sentences. What abuse are joggers and bicyclists reporting? I am a runner (FYI, jogging is for slow people) and a bicyclist. I've not had many real problems with motorized and wheeled vehicles, but then again, after 23 +/- years of running on roads, I am very aware of my actions and watch very closely everyone else's movements. I try and be as deliberate and predictable when 'playing in traffic', and to date have been very successful. To be clear, I am not trying to start a fight, but I am interested in what other runners and bikers are complaining about. (May be I can shed some light from my side of the curb?!) Is it emissions? I saw a car this morning that looked like it was on fire it was burning so much oil!! Glad I wasn't the guy in the convertible with the top down behind him in the construction traffic jam! 

I was at my in law's place over the weekend. They've moved in to a retirement community that reminds me of college. There are folks who live in outlying building that use golf carts to get around the campus. Seems like the easiest solution there, if walking has become too difficult and painful. I also saw an ad for the new Chevy Volt electric car. Ad claims 40 miles before it uses any gas. Then, with the on board 1 cylinder engine, it can recharge the batteries. One thing I haven't gotten a clear answer on is how long the batteries will last and how spent batteries will be disposed. 

I tend to agree with you, Les, regarding the folks dreaming up these vehicles. Before we had Luke, I wouldn't have given it much thought, but with a kid, and all the stuff we carry to support him, there's no way a 2 seater will work for us. Even a Mini Cooper would be too small right now. However, when you are designing your vehicle to drive on sidewalks, remember that sidewalks are not meant for motorized vehicles. In most states, there are laws against driving on sidewalks, even bikes. Also, make sure that if you do continue to design for sidewalks, a vast majority of them are not well leveled and there are many vertical transitions between one segment and another. I never noticed it before too much, but pushing a stroller will show you how bad it can get. 

We're working on a solution of our own, but it has its own price: time. Last week, I made my first trip to work on my bicycle. 28 miles in 1hr 40 minutes. Nice way to start the work day, but it was a good thing I didn't have much going on. I am doing it again tomorrow. 28 miles to work and a partial ride home in the evening. This is not something I'll be able to do every day, simply due to logistics and meeting the needs of the home life. However, on the days it is practical, it offers a change of pace (faster heart rate, slower average MPH!) and a different kind of stress (watching cars and predicting their moves before 7AM!!). However, when I thought about it, I would have gotten up at the same time, gone running for an hour (8 miles) and then drove to work (40 minutes). So, in the end, all I lost was the gas. But, that's not to say I saved money because I took that $4 I would have spent on one type of fuel and bought another type: a Western Omlette, hash browns, and toast! Granted, I did enjoy the breakfast more than I enjoy the agressive drivers. 

Mark


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Road Foreman on 08/11/2008 6:11 PM
Les, 
Before you get bummed out, take a week & read the laws of Mo.. You will be suprised I am sure.. The same is true in Ks.. 
BulletBob




Bob, 

At my age, I might not have a week. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif 

Could you give me a couple of very short instances where MO is more lienient? I'm no fan of three-wheelers, for sure. And there is a large difference in regs for a 4 wheeler vs a 3. 

Also, in another post, someone mentioned driving on interstates. THAT, I would never even consider in a battery-mobile, particularly a small one. 'Road Kill' leaps to mind. 

Okay, thanks for the hedzup. I'll start looking into licensing/ins here in MO for homebuilts. 

Les


----------



## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

Following up on Torby's comment above: 

Yes, you have to ask where the energy comes from to run the compressor of an air car, or to generate hydrogen. Not just the cost, but the polution. The cars don't polute, but if the electricity is generated using coal or oil as most of it is, you move the souce of polution from the vehicle to the area around the power plant. This might be an acceptable tradeoff, but there's usually no "free lunch".


----------



## leikec (Jul 19, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Quote - "In event of an accident the carbon fiber air tank "just splits", huh?... and just where does all that stored energy go? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif Did they forget there is always an "equal and opposite reaction"? Oh that's right, they're the experts, don't ask questions. Hope there is good rollover protection when the car flips from the sudden air jet." /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif 

The stored energy goes back into the atmosphere, and it wouldn't be very dramatic at all. The carbon fiber would split apart. If your face was right up against the tank there would be a problem - but if that was the case the crash would probably do more damage... 

Quote - "Third, have you ever seen what happens when you knock the valve off an oxygen bottle? like ROCKET time... and that's at about 1/4 the pressure...so what's gonna happen when you wreck one of these things?" 

Even with the high pressure there still has to be a small orifice to direct the exhausting air. This is why they are using carbon fiber; the material will decompress and split as the air escapes. 

Quote - "I saw a similar vehicle on some future car show. "No emissions!" They never mentioned the electric needed to compress all the air. " 

This "long tailpipe" effect, is always quoted as a reason to not do anything new. The designer is quoting a cost of $2.00 to recharge the tanks. Manufacturing $2.00 worth of electricity is much easier on the environment than refining $15.00 worth of gasoline. It is also easier and cheaper to clean up the emissions from one power plant, rather than decreasing emissions on millions of individual automobiles. 

Jeff C


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 08/12/2008 8:02 AM
Les, 
In your post, your 4th comment: 
4. There is a real, though indirect, connection between 'alt-enery' vehicles and government coercion. One example is the 'safety standards' that keep otherwise very functional and inexpensive Third World cars out of the country. Another is the herd instinct of people in a generalized way. Joggers and bicyclists report abuse. A few deserve it. 
I was reading a few years ago about a guy who was trying to start importing chinese made cars. The retail price would have been something in the $3500 range for a brand new car. That would have killed all other car sales for most of the auto market. On the other hand, it allows the the current auto makers to keep making their current margins. What was interesting to me when I was in China a few years back was the number of Buicks and VW's. I guess the Chinese auto makers have ramped up production to meet the growing demand. 

/// In China, there's a vast gap in social classes. Did you happen to note the vast number of bicycles, motorbikes and the like? 

I am confused, however, by your last two sentences. What abuse are joggers and bicyclists reporting? 

///Cyclists report deliberately being run off the road, etc. Both they and joggers report things being thrown at them. Female joggers report harrassment./// 

snip I am very aware of my actions and watch very closely everyone else's movements. I try and be as deliberate and predictable when 'playing in traffic', and to date have been very successful. 

///I, personally, almost hit a jogger--a man much older than I--who, as I rolled up the the neighborhood intersection, plodded out from behind a large bush and almost ran into the side of my car. He yelled, "Thank you--right-of-way, you **!" I remarked to my wife that anyone who runs into the street from behind a bush is living on borrowed time. The people I know who jog say they have to be careful, even wearing bright clothes. Cyclists are rare on our heavily-travelled streets, because motorists around here do not see why joggers OR bikes should be cluttering up the lanes. That's just the way it is here in River City. (Florissant)./// 

Ad claims 40 miles before it uses any gas. Then, with the on board 1 cylinder engine, it can recharge the batteries. 

/// If memory serves, the first Chevy, EV-1?, boasted 100 mi range between chargeups. And it had A/C, stereo, the whole nine yards. Turned out it got, in real-world terms, about 40-60 miles between charges. Batteries have to be changed out about every three years, four perhaps, and that's hugely expensive./// 

I tend to agree with you, Les, regarding the folks dreaming up these vehicles. Before we had Luke, I wouldn't have given it much thought, but with a kid, and all the stuff we carry to support him, there's no way a 2 seater will work for us. 

/// Of course not! I fully understand about kids. The big factor in battery car range is weight. There are lots of single-seaters out there, but I rarely-to-never go anywhere w/o my wife along. Therefore, despite the hype, they remain best at single-person commuting. Stand on a street corner and count the cars going by with one person in them. I feel, if a critical mass of 1 & 2 seaters could be injected onto the highways, battery cars would succeed. But they'd have to be cheap, initially, or subsidized. Once acceptance was won (probably though expensive retributive lawsuits for mashing one) they'd fulfill their real purpose: leaving the Detroit Plastic parked more often./// 

However, when you are designing your vehicle to drive on sidewalks, remember that sidewalks are not meant for motorized vehicles. In most states, there are laws against driving on sidewalks, even bikes. Also, make sure that if you do continue to design for sidewalks, a vast majority of them are not well leveled and there are many vertical transitions between one segment and another. I never noticed it before too much, but pushing a stroller will show you how bad it can get. 

/// I have more miles on my rider lawnmower (unsprung) on sidewalks than I do cutting grass. It's fun to putt along in the sunshine. Like riding a motorcycle, again. (I had six at various times). Anyway, you'd better believe I'm aware of uneven sidewalks! As for laws, you're right: I've been glared at a few times by the local cops, but otherwise unhassled. They could, though. Every time I meet a pedestrian I pull off into the parking greenstrip, idle down, or even shut the engine off. I've been thanked for my courtesy a couple of times./// 

Mark




Mark, 

I'll address your points as best I can, but I need to supply a few details. Both my wife and I are past 60 with health issues. I tried biking to work (7mi) and was nearly killed a couple of times, but the thing that scared me into quitting was one night coming home (2nd shifter) I hit a pothole and broke the generator brackets. Pitch dark, but after awhile I could feel my way along. Then came this "GRRRR!!" and the scratching of BIG claws on the street. I think I got away because he couldn't see much, either. Big dog. So much for biking for us. 

Now, go up into your post and I'll mark my answers /// so you can pick them out easily. 

And NO, I do NOT have anger issues with people who merely have a different take from mine. 

Les


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan, 

Most of the coal fired power plants are being required to install stack scrubbers. The recent requirements I have seen and worked toward are 97% removal of SO2. Here's the wiki page on FGD. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flue_gas_desulfurization 

The coal fired power plant of old is changing. I point this out for a couple of reasons. 
One, it is my job. (we make the limestone grinding and lime slaking mills used for these projects. This is a world product, with components coming from various countries. Most of the fab work comes from the US.) 
Two, coal is one of our most available fossil fuels domestically. It is nice to 'think green' but the reality is that it will take years before solar panels and wind turbines will be able to deliver the wattage we use daily. With the talk of having electric powered cars, or even these air powered cars, the demand for electricity will only increase. 

Then there is the question of what is the by product of FGD? Gypsum and water. Most of that gypsum can be used for other things, and not just landfilled. Besides wallboard, there is apparently some uses for gypsum in agriculture: 
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/osw/conserve/c2p2/pubs/fgd-fs.pdf 

Ok, that's my FGD/ coal fired argument for the day! 

Mark


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 

Reading through your comments, I can understand where you are coming from. The guy running into the street from behind a parked car or bush is one example of a runner who is not doing a good job making you aware of his presence. He is right, but that doesn't mean he won't get hurt. I thought only people in my generation had that "you better watch out for me because I am not watching you" attitude. huh. Maybe we learned it. 

I have had a couple of close calls in the past, and that has led me to be more proactive when I am on the road. Maybe some see it as aggressive, but I have not had anyone really get mad at me to the point of throwing stuff at me. I don't take it when kids yell at me, so I just yell back, loud as I can. I did have a confrontation once, but that was back in high school with other kids from high school. Someone beeped "beep beep" the other day, so I just assume they were saying "Nice Bike!". 

Riding your lawmower reminds me of the movie "The Straight Story". Its about a guy who rode his lawn mower from Iowa to Wisconsin to see his dying brother. True story! Great movie. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0166896/ 

Back to the electric car... changing batteries every 3 years is scary, but as more people have them, it'd probably get more affordable. 

As for 2 seaters, yes, on my daily commute, I see mostly single drivers. I have a coworker who I drive with once or twice a week. I'd need to take a better look at the commuter cars, and see how much haulage space they really have. 

Mark


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Mark, 

Re the old guy with the attitude: I believe that ingrained notion goes back as far as Cain. As for close calls, I've ridden motorcycles a good deal. One needs almost a negative 'mean time between reflex and observation' to stay whole. i.e. see about 10 seconds into the future. For sure, one cannot become unconscious of his surroundings. 

Other posts have alluded to something I want to emphasize: the 'Longer tailpipe' effect. I fail utterly to grasp how anyone cannot understand that there is no free lunch where energy is concerned. Every device has a built-in loss factor. To charge a battery array, or pump up an air tank just moves the site of energy expenditure to a different location. Yes, there's probably savings in quantity production at a single location, but it's likely negligible. That's why I feel the greatest savings from any battery car I build will be the result of keeping my minivan in the driveway. 

About the batterys becoming more affordable: I'd be wary that manufacturers didn't consider customers a captive market and charge MORE. It's happened before. 

Les


----------



## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Guys, 

For a 2 seater how about the Smart Car!! If you do not like the color, change it.. 

BulletBob


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Except Smart seems to get the same mileage as... 

my 1996 Chevy Baretta.


----------



## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

This is what we were talking about on the oil board: 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26058387 
ST. LOUIS - With two GEO Trackers, a Lexus and a pickup truck, retired coal miner Bob Woll has many ways to zip around his southern Illinois town to visit friends, the fairgrounds or the frozen custard stand. These days, he prefers his electric golf cart. 
"There's no noise, no checking the oil or how much gas you've got. You just get on and go," said Woll, a 67-year-old alderman in Sesser, Ill., who helped pass an ordinance permitting golf carts to ride on the streets. 
Sesser is among dozens of communities across the country responding to $4-a-gallon gasoline by allowing vehicles best known to country-club duffers to roam the streets as a cheaper, cleaner alternative to cars and trucks. The 20-year-old cart Woll bought for $300 gets 20 miles on a 10-hour charge. 
One factor that could limit the vehicle's prevalence off the golf course is safety: Studies have shown that roughly half of golf cart injuries occur on streets or residential property, and injury rates are on the rise â€" to the tune of 12,000 annually. 
Experts who have studied the accident rates say helmets, seat belts and driver education programs would mitigate the problem, though these measures rarely are mandated by state or local ordinances. 
Twenty-six states, from Maine to Oregon and Wisconsin to Georgia, allow the use of low-speed electric vehicles on local streets, or give towns the power to make that decision, according to Jim Reed of the National Conference of State Legislatures. 
While there are no estimates of just how many golf carts on the nation's roads, communities increasingly are signing off on them: 
Circleville, Ohio, officials voted last month to allow carts on city streets with posted speed limits of 35 mph or less, with the stipulation that they're titled, insured and modified to be street-legal. 
At least 40 Wisconsin communities, including Milwaukee, Madison and Racine, permit the carts on their roads, and more are considering it. 
And in Illinois, three communities in Iroquois County, bordering Indiana, allow residents to drive carts. 
Fuel efficiency isn't the only reason golf carts are being touted by municipalities. 
In Bremen, Ohio, sheriff's deputies say they make it easier for officers to interact with the 1,200 locals. And in the St. Louis suburb of Pine Lawn, Mo., the police chief said 15 mph golf carts are less intimidating to the public. 
At Augusta, Ga.-based E-Z-GO, which makes electric vehicles that look like fancy golf carts, consumer orders are up nearly 30 percent over this time last year, company president Kevin Holleran said. New carts with headlights, tail lights, turn signals and what Holleran calls "more of those creature comforts" cost about $8,000. 
Electric models, which can cover 40 miles on each charge, have proven more popular than gas-powered models, which get about 30 miles to the gallon, Holleran said. 
At her Critters Golf Carts store in Woodstock, Ill., northwest of Chicago, Shirley Forman says her sales have been supercharged. She normally sells 60 or 70 carts a year, but has sold at least 128 already this year. "It's really turned around," she says. 
In most towns, carts allowed for street use are required to have a sign denoting them as slow-moving vehicles or tall orange flags that easily can be seen by motorists. They're generally not allowed on sidewalks. In Sesser, residential golf cart users must have liability insurance and pay a $35 fee. 
Many states require a golf cart's operator to have a valid driver's license. And while South Carolina requires that the carts have a state permit, most other states don't require registration for street-use carts, said Nick Farber, a research analyst at the National Conference of State Legislatures. 
CONTINUED: "They can be quite dangerous" 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
1 | 2 | Next >[url]
Ok...Eig...rged, but it should be most of the way there.


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thinker, 

I agree with most of that, especially the forward-thinking in City Hall. I don't agree with an $8,000 golf cart, no matter how well decked out. That is simply too much money to induce buyers to switch to an obviously-limited vehicle. And I have reservations that the savings in gasoline will ever pay for the vehicle, its special class of insurance, batteries over time, etc. 

Only two forces will make it happen, I fear: market forces (cost of gas) or subsidies from the gov't. (Another form of tax). Neither seem palatable to me. 

I think, were the laws not so stringent, tinkerers could come up with pretty good solutions over time. Look at the genius applied to the model RR hobby to solve problems. 

Thanks for posting that article, BTW. 

Les


----------



## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Only two forces will make it happen, I fear: market forces (cost of gas) or subsidies from the gov't. (Another form of tax). Neither seem palatable to me. 


I hold to the view we are within a decade of pretty much having to go for the (now) $8000 electric golf cart option because gas prices will probably be triple what we are paying now...and very likely rationed to boot. The oil demand and supply curves get absolutely screwy before too much longer. So, it'll either be something like this, take a bus or train (if available), ride a bike or walk.


----------



## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

Mark - I'm glad to see the improvements in reducing sulfur dioxide emissions from power plants burning coal and oil. 

Aren't there polutants other than sulfur diozide in the combustion exhaust - such as carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, etc.?


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 08/12/2008 3:51 PM
Except Smart seems to get the same mileage as... 
my 1996 Chevy Baretta.




Your Baretta gets 45mpg? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 

No, don't tell me, let me guess... 

Its 22.5 miles one way to work, uphill, so you drive to work using one gallon of gas, then on the way home you just coast all the way back..result: 22.5 + 22.5 = 45 miles on one gallon /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan, 

You are right, CO2 is a stack gas as well as nitrous oxide. Some sites I worked with were also monitoring the Mercury levels, but I don't have any data on that. We tend to focus on the SO2, since it comes back down as acid rain. I was reading on wiki that CO2 release is the biggest problem with burning coal, but I don't know how they plan reduce that. I wonder if the H20 released with the CO2 has any positive effect. Now I've got my interest peaked. I'll have to ask around and see if there's any info on that.. 

I don't think they put scrubbers on oil fired plants. At least, they don't use a grinding mill with it. 

I've noticed there isn't much noise about Ethanol these days. Two to three years ago, there seemed to be a lot of talk about that as a fuel source. 

Street legal golf carts. On my (bike) ride in this morning, I saw two of those larger Polaris offroad buggys. They were plugged in and ready to go. It got me thinking about how much power electric cars really suck up during a full charge cycle. A couple bucks seems to be a Pie in the Sky number. AC motors are more efficient, right? Then does that mean we're talking about converting 24VDC to AC to run the motors? I say "Motors" because I am guessing that each wheel will be driven. Did you guys see that GE is making a Hybrid locomotive? Trying to capture some of the braking energy and storing it in batteries. Be nice if it works. 

Going back to the air car.. 
Somewhere back in the thread, there was another thought about the pressure vessel failing during a collision. I don't see how that wouldn't become a projectile. The whole tank won't be cracked in half at once. I think the failure mode will be a small, localized deformation resulting in delamination at that point, very small. High pressures around a very small failure area could result in a hole forming in that area. My thinking is that a small hole would form first, and with the rapid release of the air pressure, the whole tank would be ripped apart, but not before the thrust from the nozzle (hole) exceeded the bolts holding it in place. I am not saying it won't work, but just that I won't be the first one to buy one. 

If you want 40 MPG right now, there are tens of millions early 90s Honda Civics out there. My co worker picked one up for $800, and claims to get 40-45 MPG on the high way. Granted, he did not lower it and put huge wheels on it and paint it primer gray, like so many of them, but left it stock. We nicknamed it the H-10. (this is in reference to the Hummer vehicles, who keep getting smaller. The H-1 was that military vehicle, the H2 was an overstuffed Suburban, the H3 is little more than a Trail Blazer. You see the trend. We figured we'd beat them to the punch and just named the civic hatchback the H-10). 

Speculating is fun!! I saved you guys a couple gallons this morning, and I noticed that gas prices are dropping toward $3.50. The cynic in me wonders what they will be on November 5. 

Mark


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thinker, 

I would happily take a bus or what's called the 'Metrolink' around here--except our bus system is a joke, +/- 1/2hr scheduling, filthy interiors while in that perverted Metrolink, the passengers ride facing backwards, which tends to make me carsick. Also, it doesn't actually GO anywhere. Forest Park, a college, some few other deathlessly important points that I've forgotten. And, just last week, gangs of kids were roaming the platforms at two locations, beating up waiting passengers. 

I think they'll start drilling soon. I don't think the majority of people will stand for being coerced into inadequate to nonexistent mass transit or 'golf carts'. Then again, in the gas crisis in the '70s, I figured we'd soon own Saudi Arabia. But I was wrong. 

Anyway, to bring my part in this full circle, I have the tools and knowledge to build my own, if necessary. And at my age, there are few places I really HAVE to go. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif 

Les


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 08/13/2008 10:17 AM

I've noticed there isn't much noise about Ethanol these days. Two to three years ago, there seemed to be a lot of talk about that as a fuel source. 

Speculating is fun!! I saved you guys a couple gallons this morning, and I noticed that gas prices are dropping toward $3.50. The cynic in me wonders what they will be on November 5. 
Mark




Ung? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif About a month ago there were riots in Mexico because the price of cornmeal went from pennies to a week's pay for one tortilla. 3rd world areas are getting hungrier because the price of staples has gone up. In this country, food prices are climbing due to farmers switching to corn to make ethanol. 

I paid $3.47/gal yesterday. I saved YOU guys a bunch: I didn't go anywhere. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif Most days I don't even--well, I went to start my S10 the other morning and the battery was flat from sitting. (I hope, am investigating). /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif My wife is the 'run-to-the-store-for-this-little-item' type. Puts on about 25mi/wk. And we garage sale on Saturdays for entertainment, that's about it. The S10 is a '94 model, bought new, with 75K on the clock, fully a third of which the kids put on borrowing it to haul their junk around until I told 'em to fill the tank after each use.  Then they each got their own p/u's. 

Les


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

When I had a job, I found I could walk the 2 miles to work faster than I could take the city bus (I tried both, just once!). I had to walk 4 blocks in the wrong direction to catch the bus, then ride all over the place, up and down residential streets to downtown. Then wait for the bus that, per the bus company's published maps, went no closer than 4 blocks from where I worked and that one also wandered all over the place in residential streets. 

I would also have to get up an hour earlier to be sure I got to work on-time. 

If I got up an hour and a half earlier I could catch the bus only one block from where I lived, but it was still an outbound bus and was the same one I could catch by walking 4 block in the other direction. 

The thing that bothers me the most is that everyday when I drove to work (I would not walk two miles to work... there was no place to shower there), I saw a bus go right past the front door of where I worked and folk got off that bus! When I called the bus company to ask how I could catch that bus they said no busses went there! When I asked one of the riders of that bus, he said it went past his house and he knew nothing else about it.


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

A couple of answers about batteries: The EV-1 (lead acid) batteries were supposed to last three years, but they were cycled from "real full" to "nearly flat". The Toyota Prius (lithium ion) batteries are warrenteed for 100,000 miles because they are only using about 20% of the capacity. 
Les said: 
" fail utterly to grasp how anyone cannot understand that there is no free lunch where energy is concerned. Every device has a built-in loss factor. To charge a battery array, or pump up an air tank just moves the site of energy expenditure to a different location. Yes, there's probably savings in quantity production at a single location, but it's likely negligible. " 
Not true, Les. Gasoline powered vehicles average about 10% efficiency. A lot more on the freeways, zero at traffic lights, overall 10%. An ordinary coal fired or nuclear power plant runs at about 35-40% efficiency, regular natural gas plants run at 40% to 48%, and combined cycle plants (natural gas powered, plus a Heat Recovery Steam Turbine in the exhaust) run at 60%. 
Mark Oles said: 
"I've noticed there isn't much noise about Ethanol these days. Two to three years ago, there seemed to be a lot of talk about that as a fuel source." 
We are currently using 30% of our corn crop to make 8% of our fuel. The government mandate is for ethanol to make up 20% of our fuel by a year that eludes me right now. So, we will need 75% of our corn crop. Trouble is, there wasn't that much excess corn in the first place. And there isn't enough arable but unused land in the US to make up the difference. Plus, corn is a remarkably low efficiency source of ethanol. Ethanol from agricultural waste makes a lot of sense. Ethanol from corn makes zero sense. So why are we going **** for leather down the corn path? Three words: Archer. Daniels. Midlands. ADM went to Washington, and spread a little money around (a little by ADM standards), and pooff, corn ethanol mandate. 
I could go on (and on) but I've probably already lost most people, so I won't.


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

When I looked up the smart it said 32MPG. I was appalled. 45? Maybe I'll give them another look.


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 08/14/2008 7:24 AM
When I looked up the smart it said 32MPG. I was appalled. 45? Maybe I'll give them another look.




Yeah dont trust the government numbers, our Fearless Leaders and their minions in Detroit are scared to death of this little car, scared it will erode what already undersized US ecomony car marketshare they still have that hasnt been already eaten by the Prius & Civic hybrids, until they can retool and make their own versions of the very same car. So theres been alot of shinanigans regarding mileage estimates, which have been consistanlty downsized to make the car less attractive to protect their Detroit buddies. But people know these thing even in the bogged down US versions, still rival Prius's mpg, some of the dam Euro version got close to 60mpg and are still drivable at freeway speeds! it even did well on the offset headon impact test. So as Mr. Rogers would say; "Can you spell 'Protectionism'?, I knew you could" /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


----------



## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)




----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, 

I know what you mean about the bus schedules. I looked in to public transportation here a few years ago, and this is what I found: 
1. It is possible that the stars would align and I would make the three connections necessary to get to work. 
2. It would cost me about the same as driving my car. 
3. It would take almost 2 hours to get to work, whereas driving a car, it was 35 minutes. 
4. I would have to walk or ride a bike to the bus stop almost a mile away. 

Clearly, the bus is not for me. I can ride my bike in that same ammount of time or less. 

Interestingly, I rode the bike yesterday, and I wasn't really tired at work at all. In fact, I was more tired today than yesterday, and I even rode 11 miles from my co workers house to mine. One part of my commuting solution seems to be the bike. (Obviously, it is not an every day kind of a thing, especially when we start getting ice. Make that IF we get ice or snow. Didn't see much of it last year.) I am just taking it slow, but eventually, I may find a way to make taking the bike daily a reality. 

Mark


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By astrayelmgod on 08/13/2008 11:36 PM

Les said: 
" fail utterly to grasp how anyone cannot understand that there is no free lunch where energy is concerned. Every device has a built-in loss factor. To charge a battery array, or pump up an air tank just moves the site of energy expenditure to a different location. Yes, there's probably savings in quantity production at a single location, but it's likely negligible. " 

Not true, Les. Gasoline powered vehicles average about 10% efficiency. A lot more on the freeways, zero at traffic lights, overall 10%. An ordinary coal fired or nuclear power plant runs at about 35-40% efficiency, regular natural gas plants run at 40% to 48%, and combined cycle plants (natural gas powered, plus a Heat Recovery Steam Turbine in the exhaust) run at 60%. 

We are currently using 30% of our corn crop to make 8% of our fuel. The government mandate is for ethanol to make up 20% of our fuel by a year that eludes me right now. So, we will need 75% of our corn crop. Trouble is, there wasn't that much excess corn in the first place. And there isn't enough arable but unused land in the US to make up the difference. Plus, corn is a remarkably low efficiency source of ethanol. Ethanol from agricultural waste makes a lot of sense. Ethanol from corn makes zero sense. So why are we going **** for leather down the corn path? Three words: Archer. Daniels. Midlands. ADM went to Washington, and spread a little money around (a little by ADM standards), and pooff, corn ethanol mandate. 
I could go on (and on) but I've probably already lost most people, so I won't.




You haven't lost me, for one. I tend to agree with your overall perspective--since it is congenial with mine, for two--but you've made a serious error in your rebuttal of my statement: I was specifically speaking of the costs of energy at least once removed from the device expending the energy, i.e, the $2 recharge of a battery array. You went directly to the efficiency of gasoline engines. I don't know what the efficiency of modern-day engines are. I suspect that the number is not fixed, depending upon who's arguing what point. I know this: I can afford to run my Pontiac Montana with its excellent a/c and other features as far as I NEED to at a price I am willing to pay. 

My point has always been that there's a way around high gasoline costs, and that's first, buy less gas (stay home more) and second, with a home-brewed rig running a pair of batteries and a one-lunger engine for recharge or alternate motive power when necessary. And I have both the skills and the tools to construct one of these things. It's the hassle with City Hall that I don't care to deal with. Do I think everyone will like a two-placer sidewalk-runner with a range of ten miles or under? Not even. Given a sharp enough crisis, I think both the above problems will solve themselves. 

I'm too old to look for easy fixes. Life's full of tradeoffs, and then there's the vast array of people who await someone else to do their thinking. 

Please, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, tell me why in the terms I've posited. And no, I'm not mad, see/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

Les


----------



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semper, 

That reminds me--this is a RR forum--of the time I clued MOPAC RR into where five of their gondolas were. I'd been driving past this overgrown siding with these five gons rusting into the dirt for more than five years, so one day I pulled over and copied the car numbers down. When I got to work I wrote a letter (this was quite a long time ago) with the cars listed and wondered what the story was. I got a grateful reply: they'd lost track of where these things were! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/doze.gif 

Les


----------



## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Les said: " one-lunger engine " 

I don't know what sort of engine you are thinking about, but a chain saw running for one hour puts out more pollution than a car driven from Los Angeles to New York City. So, if you build this little wonder, don't drive it down my street.


----------



## sschaer (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

re smart and other fuel efficient european cars. 


there are : 

- volkswagen lupo 3L , supposed to use 3liters/100km which is roughly 78mpg. 
- a friend of mine runs a audi a4 turbodiesel (1.9liter engine) this is a 5-seat station wagen. normaly he uses 4.5lites/100km. something like 53mpg. 


bad thing is that these cars are extremely expensive on your side of the pond because of taxes which help to protect your own manufacturers


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: New "Air Car" to work like steam locomotive*

Na, they're just worried about the mid-east running out of money.


----------

