# Phoenix -Sound-Motion-decoder



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Phoenix has announced a new complete sound , motion decoder that plugs into the Bachmann socket. No wiring required. We will get them listed on our site in a day or two.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Interesting. VERY interesting. 

Here's a link to Phoenix's web site. Not much info yet available, not even a manual yet. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

about time, but the 3 amp continuous rating is lame. No reason for it with 60 amp FETs so cheap (What most ls decoders use)

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I would agree that a higher rating might make folks feel a bit more comfortable, but I wouldn't call it a dealbreaker by any stretch. I'd bet most folks wouldn't come close to taxing this board to its limits. I don't see the Bachmann locos for which this board is designed being able to come close to needing to worry about it. (Mine run 2 - 4 hours on a 2600mAh battery, so nowhere near drawing 3 amps.) 

The bigger issue for me is the $265 list price. Phoenix isn't known for deep discounts at their dealers, so I don't see this board falling below the $200 level. The current crop of motor/sound DCC decoders will set you back between $150 - $210, and are very full-featured for sounds, lights, smoke, and other cool things. Where does this board fall in that spectrum, and how much of a premium are DCC folks going to spend for "plug-and-play" convenience?

I wonder if this board is designed more towards the analog track power modeler who wants plug-and-play convenience for a sound installation. Lots of folks want sound, but installing it can be daunting. A plug-and-play version that through its very nature takes care of hooking up the speaker and chuff triggers for you makes a lot of sense. You would still have to plug in the back-up power battery, but (hard to tell from the photo) I'd bet that's a plug on the board as well.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

did not say dealbreaker, said lame.

I use pretty clear English, please use the words I say if you wish to take exception to what I said.

Now repeating: Lame.... easily could have had a higher rating without adding any significant cost or size or negatives.

Greg


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, Kevin said he wouldn’t call it a dealbreaker. Assuming I could battery power the new SM18, it would have been less expensive than using a P8 and an AirWire dropin and a lot simpler install in my C19.
What I don’t understand, is where is the demand for the product?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

As it is Bachmann plug in only. With an optional socket would expand the market. I have asked Jim about one with screw terminals and 6A drive. Hope that they can expand.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, if you followed the long history between Kevin and I, or even look at the forum, you will see that 90% of the time he immediately follows my post with an opinion 180 degrees out... coincidence is not a factor here.

Anyway, please do not anyone "help" me with Kevin, it's a private feud.

Back to the unit, it will plug into Aristo sockets and will probably be tried there right away. Also, 3 amps on a heavily loaded Bachmann with smoke going and realizing that the standalone phoenix draws about an amp, I think 3 amps may be marginal even in a Bachmann.

So, great that Phoenix has seen the light to make an integrated decoder AND has (apparently) handled the reverse logic chuff circuitry, but my statement is that I can find no engineering reason that they could not have made a 6 amp rated decoder like the rest of the manufacturers that all use basically the same power FET transistors.

Greg - 593 and accelerating...


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, what does the big NCE decoder use? They call it 8A.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, that is very old school... old design... not even sure it uses FETs... would not compare an almost 20 year old design. You will also note it has an aluminum "heat sink"

All modern decoders, regardless of scale use FETs (except for some real el cheapos)

FETs have a very low "on" resistance, so high current does not make as much heat, i.e. does not normally even need a heat sink.

I've checked the part numbers on many large scale decoders most are 50 amp or 60 amp... (that would be with heat sinks of course), so running 6 amps without a heat sink works. This is the key to an economical and small design.

The Revolution has a heat sink, but it's not really a very good setup, as there is a thermal pad, and the FETs used are not designed for heat sinks. They scrimped a bit on their FETs. They also use FETs for the full wave bridge rectifier converting the DCC to DC for powering the micro, sound amps, etc.

The high end European decoders often have heat sinks, but rated like 10 or 12 amps.

Just strange that all the other modern decoders can run 6 amps without heat sinks and why make a large scale 3 amp decoder when a 6 amp one should be no more cost and cover more locos. No manufacturer _WANTS_ to make 2 different models when one will do.

This is what I am wondering. Also, the 3 amp rating makes it unacceptable for USA Trains.

If this was some newbie to LS, like TCS, I would not make this comment, but you would think/expect that the top quality of Phoenix sound would be complimented by top quality motor driving capability.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, once again, you're reading conflict into my posts where there is actually agreement. I _agree_ that a 3-amp rating is going to scare folks off who think they need more power, and I _agree_ that if it were just a matter of using beefier components, a higher current rating on this board would make all the sense in the world. The thrust of my post has nothing to do with rebutting anything you said. It's just my take on things. I think folks in large scale _think_ they need a lot more power than they really do, so a 3-amp continuous rating will likely not be a concern for most modelers.

I've been running battery power for more than 30 years. It's pretty simple math to take the current rating of the battery and divide it by the life of a charge of the battery to derive an average current draw. Even with heavy trains and steep grades, my averages over all those years has been on the order of 0.5 amps to 1.5 amps average for the more extreme environments. That's for sound, lights, and motor. I don't use smoke. (And--yes--that includes systems installed in USA diesels.) It may push 3 amps for brief periods of time, but it's certainly not a "continuous" thing. How I run my trains is by no means universal, but neither is it in any way unique or unusual. 

Now, if you want me to disagree with you, I'll challenge your statement that the Phoenix draws "about 1 amp." The manual states that's the maximum it might draw at full volume. It has a 3-watt amplifier. Theoretically at 15 volts (P=IE), that's about 0.2 amps maximum draw at full volume when the wattage of the amplifier would be maxed out. I checked mine to see how close it comes to this theoretical equation. 12 volt supply, maximum volume, multiple sounds including whistle (the loudest) triggered for maximum sound output - 0.27 amps. (3.24 watts) At idle (just background sounds) it draws 0.07A. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Qed (no idea why the site puts 2 of the letters in lower case, typed in all caps.. oh well, par for the course)


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Jim is looking to ship them in 2-3 weeks. We are listing them at $240


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ouch... well the "Phoenix faithful" may buy them, but they need to be at the same price as their competition. $200 would be the price point I would think.

Anyway, let's see how this plays out. It seems that most of the new products are electronics.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have been selling less priced sound for a while, like Zimo that is full of features. For us Phoenix is a GREAT seller. If this new item will plug in and do what it is suppose to do , their is a market for it. It would help a lot if Bachmann was not the only manufacturer using this socket.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a ton of Aristo out there with the socket, much more than Bachmann.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Definitely more Aristo. Slight difference.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The SM18 arrived in our shop today, have not had a chance to check it out yet.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been testing/using the new Phoenix board in Bachmann locomotives since March. It is a drop in and they did it both for the K27 as a drop in (which for other phoenix products requires an inversion transistor) and as a drop in for the other Bachmann locomotives that have the socket. We will use it this weekend in another ops session and perhas others at the session will comment on LSC.

It is currently in a C-19 but I move it around. It works rather well and much better then others (such as QSI) that I have used.

One note about amp rating. There is no standard for how one rates a decoder. I have used 1 amp decoders of one brand in locomotives where another brand rated at 2 amps overheated once the sun came out.

Some rate it is how much continuous some by stall some at room temp and some in a heat chamber.

So while I always like higher amp ratings, most of my decoders are rated 3 amp continuous and have worked for years.

Greg Using 60 amp transistors does not necessarily raise the amp rating of a decoder at all. In Europe CE has requirements for temperature of components in products. I know one manufacturer who places decoders in a heat chamber and rates the decoder at the CE rating after several hours. Their amp ratings tend to be much lower then US manufacturers but work under load in real locomotives a lot better.

The Phoenix worked well in a C-19 on a sunny 90+ degree day going uphill under a full load.

Stan


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I loaded the new required software this morning and started to load SM18 back orders. Some will get out the door today. The new software has a new window to adjust CV's. Otherwise identical.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Phoenix is already developing a new board with screw terminals, 6 amp rating and a keep alive capacitor. The current board is NOT intended for the Aristo socket.


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