# 1935 Empire Builder



## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

this probably belongs in the rolling stock forum, but i thought there might be more direct interest here. i scanned in three HO models built in the 70's (OL; Japan (Million Models)). i know there is an RPO car in this series which i have never seen, but i have no info on others.

1935 Empire Builder 80' cars (scans ~1M each) 
http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Mod%201st%20Class%20Coach%20950-961%20--%20lg.jpg
EB Mod 1st Class Coach 950-961 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3430x2060 pixels)

http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Diner%201030-1051%20--%20lg.jpg
EB Diner 1030-1051 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3500x2020 pixels)

http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Obsv-Lounge%201071-1075%20--%20lg.jpg
EB Observation-Lounge 1071-1075 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3480x1950 pixels)

now if i can only find a printer that'll hold 32" paper!! 
cheers...gary


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I must be doing something wrong because I cannot retreive the pics, What id link to site. The copy and paste is not working for me. 
Thanks in advance iS IT POSSIBLE that you could email me the pics, [email protected]


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## k5pat (Jan 18, 2008)

Art,* 
Try clicking on these links:



http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Mod%201st%20Class%20Coach%20950-961%20--%20lg.jpg 


EB Mod 1st Class Coach 950-961 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3430x2060 pixels) 



http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Diner%201030-1051%20--%20lg.jpg


EB Diner 1030-1051 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3500x2020 pixels) 



http://members.cox.net/mocko/EB%20Obsv-Lounge%201071-1075%20--%20lg.jpg


EB Observation-Lounge 1071-1075 -- lg.jpg (JPEG Image, 3480x1950 pixels)*


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Pat 
Thanks very much. I can handle that. Maybe you can come to Houston some time and we can double 
head the S2's ,even though that would not be kosher. Thanks for your help and as you can tell, i"m getting excited about my S2/


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## Reed (Jan 7, 2008)

Gary, Thanks for posting the picture; I seldom look at the rolling stock forum and would have probably missed them. 
Reed SA 240/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

http://members.cox.net/mocko/GN%20HvyWt%20RPO%2025-36%20%20--%20lg.jpg 


added another car, RPO #25 - 36, another HO model by Oriental Limited, but this one built by FM models and not specifically in the 1935 EB series. this one measures out to ~60' so would be 22.5" in 1:32. 

actually this was more of an exercise to post a live link. is there really no HTML editor in this forum? i cut and pasted the code to get this link in, but still have no idea how to include a simple picture. 

anyway, at least this seems to work, albeit not very handy. 

by the way, Branchline Trains offers (HO, sorry) 12-1 and 8-1-2 Pullman sleepers with Empire Builder names, so another clue to the consist. one of these days i'll try to borrow back my GN book and get a better idea of what the 4-8-4's pulled. 

received my S2 kit yesterday. once it was out of the box inside the box, inside the sleeve, inside the box (*whew*) it was a little less intimidating in size at least. not sure if i like the split instructions/illustration format vs. the Berkshire fashion. i guess i'll see. 

my suggestion to anyone... skip to the tender (14-16), then start from the beginning. it's soooo nice to have that piece already assembled when the final details go on the locomotive. you also get a little practice with the sealant before you have to deal with the ceramic sheet, too. my least favorite steps! at least noticed they have a complete template of sheet shapes (pronounced very slowly) this time. 

cheers...gary


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

http://members.cox.net/mocko/3WhHvyWtTrucks.jpg 

back on the subject of GN passenger cars... 

i notice Aristo-Craft sells 3 axle Passenger trucks (@ $53 / pair) which i've got to believe are probably close enough to 1:32 for me unless there are other suggestions out there. i can't find a source for Accucraft (more 1:32?) trucks if anyone can volunteer that information. 

they look very close to accurate assuming the HO models were built correctly. 
cheers...gary


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Sunset Valley will be producing a nice consist of 1:32 Empire Builder cars for the S2 
contact Pete for more info. 
The pilot model looks quite a bit different than the Aristocraft 1:29 as the height/length aspect ratio is considerably lower. 
I have my order in 


jim


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

actually i only had the trucks in mind. 
i don't want 1:29 scale cars either. 
...gary


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim 
What is Sunset Valleys contact site. Might just check them out.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Peter goes a great job for a good price; here you go: 
http://www.svrronline.com/images/Picture 131.jpg


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

The price is high, a bit under $700, but there is a lot to do on a heavyweight car. 
Peter was going for about $500 but could not make that happen. 

what is an engine good for without its train? 


jim


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a few photos of the pre-release car behind Dan Pantages' S2.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

This pre-production car looks to be perfect behind the S2. Hopefully I'll have a chance to see this car at Pete's in a couple of weeks. Looks like we'll be ponying up what equates to another S2 for a set of these cars. 
If you were to use the Aristocraft cars, one would need to trim down the bolster to lower the car body over the trucks for a much better look and to disguise their 1/29 scale heft. Body mounted couplers and some custom fabricated diaphrams helps to get the close couple look of the prototype.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Harlan et al, 

I have been playing with the Aristocraft cars for many years and will be running with them my S2 before we get Peter's cars. 
I have even heard of people who have sawed the cars in half to make them narrower. When we were at NSS, Pete and I compared 
the new prototype 1:32 to the Aristo 1:29. One cannot reproduce the right look from the Aristos. The model cars are the same length, but the 1:32 is lower and narrower. In comparison, the aspect ratio is much lower with Pete's cars, much more than one might think just comparing scales. So the Aristo will work for the S2, but the look will be off compared to Pete's cars in simulating the real Empire builder. 
Life is short. Run trains 

jim


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i asked Phil Bonner of Kern Valley Railway if he might offer an Empire Builder consist and this is the reply i received... 
-------------------- 
Philip Bronner wrote: 
> 
> There are 275-300 separate parts in a KVR heavyweight, most cast by us in resin from RTV molds. We put about $300 in our material costs and parts costs (trucks, Kadee couplers, custom decals and full underbody detail included), then add a minimum of 40 hours assembly time. The interiors are detailed down to the Oriental carpets on the floor to the wood paneling on the walls. Sound, smoke and running water are extra (no joke). 
> 
> No shop in China will do that small (100 pieces) a number, Japanese and Korean labor costs approach ours---so where to go? Kits, maybe, would that I interest you? 
> 
> Phil Bronner 
-------------------- 
then in a follow-up note... 
-------------------- 
Philip Bronner wrote: 
> 
> Hi Gary…received your note. Was about ready to fold up KVR since couldn’t produce RTR’s and there was no interest in kits. BUT…just lately there is a small interest expressed and may resurrect the kit idea if I can afford to. I do have a 3990 about ready to produce and the 8-1-2 is the Henry H Sibley from that 1935 consist. I’ll send you the data. 
-------------------- 
so if there is any interest in a craftsman kit, please stop by his website and express interest. i sure would like to see a fully detailed Lounge-Buffet-SunRoom (Plan 3990 is the EB 'observation' car). 

with a little further research, i finally got to my GN book the other day and though little is said about exact consists, 10 heavyweight cars was mentioned as a typical EB train for the mid-30. the 8-1-2 Pullman plan was listed along with 'Tourist' sleepers which i've got to imagine were 12 or 14 section cars. 1st and 2nd class coaches were also listed along with an RPO, Baggage, Diner and the enclosed Sun Room-Observation car. 

12-1 Pullman plans were only listed for the Oriental Limited, but perhaps when that service ceased, some of those cars made the EB run when needed. can't confirm this, though. 
again, i hope anyone interested expresses interest in the KV kits. 
cheers...gary


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

checking back issues, Mainline Modeler, Oct 80 -- 

Lounge, Buffet, Sun Room 
Built May & June, 1929 
for "Empire Builder" 

and nice to see it would be valid for the SRR. 
perhaps some Southern, Pacific owners would be interested in a good looking tail end car, too. 
cheers...gary 


http://members.cox.net/mocko/PullmanCo-Plan3990-Lot6249-2.jpg 
http://members.cox.net/mocko/PullmanCo-Plan3990-Lot6249-sm.jpg


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary 
The lounge car will be a nice addition. I bit longer than other cars. 
The trains were going too fast, so they switched to closed observation from the open one on the Oriental Limited 
jim


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

The open observation cars were replaced by enclosed cars because of the Great Northern route through the lengthy Cascade Tunnel to and from Eastern Washington to the west, making the ride in an open ended car a dark and smokey experience.


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i just received some reference sheets from the GNRHS. 
some i would recommend... 

RS040 - GN Class S2 4-8-4 
RS110 - Heavyweight Pullman Equipment 
RS178 - GN Empire Builder Part 1, 1929-1947 

the S2's came online in the Spring of 1930 and went right to work pulling the Empire Builder over certain sections (Spokane Wenatchee, WA & Williston, ND Havre, MT). this assignment seems to have lasted until ~1945 when diesels started taking over the EB duties. 

from these write-ups i've tried to piece together the Empire Builder consist from this decade and a half and here's what i've come up with: 

#52-71 -- RPO / Baggage 

#643-667 -- 2nd class Coach / Sleeper 
(Dorm - Smoker) 

#950-979 -- 80' Coach 
replaced by 
#938-949 -- 58 seat luxury coach in 1937 

#950-979 -- 80' Coach 
replaced by 
#938-949 -- 58 seat luxury coach in 1937 

#var -- Pullman 16 Section Sleeper 

#var -- Pullman 16 Section Sleeper 

#1030-1051 -- 36 seat Diner 

(added in Summer) 
14 Section Sleeper 
replaced by 
6 Section, 6 Double Bedroom in 1935 

named -- 8-1-2 Sleeper (Chicago - Spokane) 
or 
named -- 12-1 Sleeper (Spokane - Seattle) 
with the almost 12 hour leg from Spokane to the coast, both eastbound and westbound trains scheduled this as an overnight leg departing ~9-10pm and arriving between 8-9am the next morning. so the 8-2-1 sleeper was transferred to (W) or picked up (E) from the SP&S in Spokane where a 12-1 sleeper was added to (W) or dropped off (E) from the EB consist. 


named -- 8-1-2 Sleeper 

named -- 8-1-2 Sleeper 

named -- 8-1-2 Sleeper 
or 
named -- 12-1 Sleeper 

#1070-1076 (named) -- Buffet - Lounge - Sun Room 

------------- 

the bad news is that the EB seemed to always be at least 10 cars and the good news is that it was almost always held under 15 cars. 

in the early 40's (i imagine with the war and all) consists were often split into two trains; a sleeper section followed by an all coach section. these are detailed in RS110. 

one thing i couldn't find out is when the heavyweight cars were painted in EB orange/green. i'm assuming it would be after the introduction of the 1947 streamlined lightweight EB. the heavyweight cars returned later that year as the revived Oriental Limited which had been discontinued in 1931, but now behind F7 A-B-A's. so i doubt if the S2 ever regularly pulled anything other than Pullman Green w/ gold lettering heavyweight EMPIRE BUILDER cars. 

thirty+ feet of EB behind these engines whould look sharp! 
but even as kits, this is going to be a pricey train. 

cheers...gary


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Gary, 
Did you find more information on the Pullman 16 section sleeper, so called tourist cars? 
There was not a diagram in those GNRHS notes 

thanks


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

in RS178, the initial consist (1929) was described as including "three (sic) sixteen section sleeping cars". all other places that consist is listed, however, only states there were 2 tourist sleepers. this is the only place i've seen the sleeper type qualified as a number of sections. 

but from: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/CARdwgs4.html 
it says 16-section Pullman production ended by 1918, so those cars were almost 20 years old by the time the EB started to run, thus maybe only ran for the first few years if that. 

my guess is that the tourist sleepers were Pullman pool cars, and i'm even doubting they were lettered EMPIRE BUILDER but rather, maybe, PULLMAN. 

but you're right. you'd think that RS110 would at least mention the 16 section type if they were ever in a GN consist. 

i may try to follow-up with a question to the society. i picked up a few other Ref Sheets and discovered it was cheaper to join and get the society discount. may as well use the annual membership! 

cheers...gary


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary, 
Sounds good. In another GN book I found that these car were probably left over from the 1910s and were probably not labeled 
Empire builder, but that they served for quite a while. 
that thery were 16 section is added information to me. This is important as we are trying to help Pete Comley develop the EB consist in 1:32 
Keep me informed! 
thanks 

jim


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i guess a second reading worked. RS110 does mention Pullman 16 section sleepers (page 7) as in the #4000-4295 range built as Pullman plan 2412. it also gives an exact 1945 consist(s) including cars #4065, #4148 and #4290. now, cross-referencing those numbers to the Pullman Project database; all three of those cars are plan 2412 (-T or -U). 

so i'm fairly convinced the tourist sleepers were, at least most days, 16 section cars. and they are also all air conditioned (at least from 1935 on), so probably partially rebuilt from the original plan. 

cheers...gary


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