# Scratch Building 4-4-0 Engines



## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm just dreaming right now, but that's what forums are for.









I would like to build a major G-scale layout based on antique 4-4-0 engines. I already have several of these by Bachmann. But I'm now dreaming about building my own out of metal from scratch. It's just a dream at this stage, but all dreams must begin with a first step. So I imagine obtaining plans and advice from other scratch-builders is a good place to start.

I'm not looking to precisely duplicate any specific historic engine. But I like the following designs. I'm into colorful painting, flashy brass metal, and fancy cabins with cool looking windows and woodwork. 

Here are some pictures I've found that illustrate the type of engines I'm interested in. 




























The first three are wood burners, but I see that this next one is coal. 










I would be treating the above engines as a single design in my shop. In other words I would like to design a nice solid 4-4-0 chassis and then I could modify the bodies and paint on those to produce several differently finished engines.


Ideally I would also like to have a second design that is smaller like the following switcher that I could use for yard work. Again I could paint them up to match the mainline locos whose railroad they service. My "Big Dream" is have three different lines, and three different railway companies.










So just by designing these two basis engines I can get a lot of diversity from just these two designs and end up with three different railroad companies.

So where do I begin in terms of scratch-building these basic designs?


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

That example on top is available as a kit. You could use the parts as a pattern to cut from metal. Or just building the kit would give you a good start. If you are starting from scratch it is best to find some sort of plans. An internet search might turn those up. Or find a locomotive that is near you, take a lot of pictures/measurements. If you are in the UK, there are several kit makers there and Walsall is a good source for wheels, unless you plan to get a forge and cast your own!


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you looked at the Masterclass forum here? While not 4-4-0s, the construction techniques and parts source info should help you with your project. 
Also, under Live steam, look at Dwight Ennis' posts of building a live steam 4-4-0 in 1-1/2" scale. Again, some of his techniques could apply to G1. He has also scratch-built a 4-4-0 (in reverse!) and posted his progress here. I'm not sure if that is still available in the archives--is it, Dwight? 

Larry


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

There is a lot of work in starting from scratch - perhaps buying (via Amazon) the book by John H White Jr. 'A History of the American Locomotive, its development 1830 - 1880' which will be second hand (last published in 1979), will explain a lot; also the website of Kloke Loco Works who have built 'Leviathan' and are now building 'York' - http://www.leviathan63.com/leviathan63.html# Both are full size locos.



The locos you mention have Bar frames; so you will need either a milling machine or a laser cutter; in the Masterclass series on the Mason Bogies (2 6 6 ) page 
at http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/21/aft/122525/Default.aspx
there is a section on the laser cut chassis for these locos that shows a bar frame.


You could always do what I did with my large Mason Bogie the link is as above for a PDF - there I made the chassis from styrene, and added a thinner outer layer for the bar frames.


Also Westlake Publishing sell 'The Modellers Annuals' - the earlier ones are now available as a PDF download - the one with the 'Red Oak Garage' on the front (winter 2008) has an article on building in brass and ahows bar fra,esd & hw to make them from brass. The download is $15 via Paypal. website is at http://www.finescalerr.com Goto 'order books, and scroll down to the magazine/book fronts. The scale for the article is 1:48 but the basic idea can be used in G scale


Yours Peter.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By peter bunce on 09 May 2013 12:10 PM 
The locos you mention have Bar frames; so you will need either a milling machine or a laser cutter; in the Masterclass series on the Mason Bogies (2 6 6 ) page 
at http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/21/aft/122525/Default.aspx
there is a section on the laser cut chassis for these locos that shows a bar frame.

This Masterclass series of PDFs looks like just what I'm looking for. I'd like to build in 1:24 scale.

I'm just toying with the idea right now. However, I do have a full shop with a really nice heavy-duty combination Metal lathe/Milling machine. So I'm prepared to do machining work when required. I've also done aluminum sand casting in the past, many years ago. That's something that I could potentially entertain again if it proves to be worthwhile. If I actually decide to embark on this engine building journey I think I'll pull out all the stops and plan on making a dozen of each of the two designs I mentioned in the OP. That's what I'd really like to have, and I've always found that when setting up to build something like this building a dozen isn't all that more difficult than building one. Especially if I set up for something like casting my own spoke wheels. I wouldn't want to go through all that just for one engine. If I build a pattern to cast I may as well do some mass production whilst I'm at it.

But like I say, all of this is a dream down the pike to be sure. I have the resources and shop to take on a project like this. The question now is just to decide for sure that I want to start down this track.

Reading this Masterclass series will certainly put me on the right track and potentially stoke the firebox of incentive.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm finding lots of parts for building an engine from scratch, but I'm having problems finding a suitable electric motor to build around.

Where would I look to find an electric motor suitable for a heavy metal G-scale 4-4-0 steam engine.

I could build around just a motor alone, but I would also be interested in any motor-gear or motor-drive assemblies. 

Also if I build my own motor drive, would I be better off using a worm gear drive or a spur gear drive?

I also have some old heavy duty stepper motors, I wonder if I could build around a stepper motor? Of course I'd need to make my own controller then but that's no big deal. An engine driven by a stepper motor would be controllable to the nth degree.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. 

I was actually even thinking about buying a used 4-4-0 G scale locomotive and gutting it to build around its original drive. But in order to do that it would need to be pretty cheap, like one that was highly damaged save for the motor and drive. Or even just the motor alone. 

Ideally I would like to find a low-cost motor - or drive assembly - that I can buy several of so I can design around that one design and build several engines. I don't want to pay an arm and a leg just for the motor though.

I haven't even been able to find replacement motors or drives for the Bachmann engines I already have. Where would I find something like that?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Zeno, 

Have you seen these parts from NWSL? 
This is an old project of someone elses that I ended up with.
From what I have deduced a further reduction would be needed. 
You wouldn't necessarily need a gearbox on each axle or run the shaft horizontal like on the engine block below. 
I don't know the part number or other options.
Double threaded worm. Ratio 12.5:1 


Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Andrew.

Those photos are really helpful. I might mess around on my lathe and milling machine and see about making my own gear boxes like you have shown. Those are really nice and straight-forward. They are also easy to mount and couple together. 

I looked at the motors in the NWSL catalog and they look like they have some nice ones. Thanks for the tip.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Zeno,

I figured a single one of these gearboxes on the drive axle with the shaft running vertically or diagonally with a further reduction could be a solution to fixing Bachmann engines that have destroyed their gearboxes.
If anyone is wondering, the frame is a Bachmann 2-8-0 which has been cut above axle block 2 and 3 to remove the second axle reducing it to a 2-6-0.
The heavy steel plate visible holds it all together. 
I am not really sure whether a spur or worm is better but from what I understand you need a double threaded worm so you don't get surging going down hill.
The older Bachmann gearboxes are fairly flimsy plastic geared things that I wouldn't base anything on except the easiest bash modification. If you are going to go to so much scratch built work there are better, more robust options I'm sure. I was shocked when I first saw the tiny motor in the Connie!

Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for the tip on the double threaded worm gear. I've never cut a doubled threaded worm gear before. I wonder if I need to grind a special cutting tool or if I can cut it in two passes using a single thread tool?

I haven't played with my lathe for quite a while. I have a really nice heavy-duty lathe. It's just a bench-top lathe with a built in mill, but it's really heavy. It should cut these tiny gears with no problem.

I also have a dividing head to cut the threads on circular matching gear too. So I can design my own gears in whatever ratio I like.

The main thing right now is to choose a motor to design around.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Zeno 

Have a look at Pittman motors that are used in Accucraft locomotives. 
or Buhler as used in LGB locomotives. Maxon is another quality brand that was used in Brawa locomotives. 
They are all probably fairly expensive though. 
Cheaper Mabuchi brand comes to mind used in Aristo and Bachmann. There must be plenty of possibilities in the model car racing supplies at economical prices. 
Old car windscreen wiper motor. Ha!


Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Garratt on 21 May 2013 11:11 PM 
Zeno 

Have a look at Pittman motors that are used in Accucraft locomotives. 
or Buhler as used in LGB locomotives. Maxon is another quality brand that was used in Brawa locomotives. 
They are all probably fairly expensive though. 
Mabuchi brand comes to mind. There must be plenty of possibilities in the model car racing supplys at economical prices. 
Old car windscreen wiper motor. Ha! 

Andrew 
I'll use anything that will work and fit inside the loco. Sometimes you can find a real steal just by accident. As long as it works I won't complain. But if I'm going to make an investment surely the motor is the place to make it. I'm hoping to build about a dozen engines altogether so cost is always X 12. 

In the case of the Big John style 0-4-4-0 switchers I'm pretty sure I'll need two motors. One for each truck. 

In fact, I've been looking at the Big John engine and while I like the idea, it doesn't have any cylinders! I want cylinders!

So now I'm looking at designing something on my own. I've been toying with the following idea:

I found this locomotive. It has nice linkage and cylinders.










So I hacked it up in the style of the Big John. 










I shorted the boiler. Moved the cabin forward. Lengthened the tender bin. 

Then whacked off the cow catcher and front wheels. 

I raised the whole thing up off the trucks so the trucks are independently steerable. The cylinders move with the trucks around sharp curves. 

Then I put couplers on both ends to use it as a switcher. 

This is basically a "Glorified" Big John with fancy linkage and cylinders for each truck.

I'll have to run piping to cylinders with flexible steam hoses going to the cylinders. (I wonder if that was ever done on a real engine?) Maybe they should be metallic swivel connections?

In any case, this will be a cool model. I need for this engine to be able to negotiate tight curves 4 foot diameter or less. So these trucks need to swivel. 

I guess on these models I'll need to use a motor on each truck. Either that or some kind of flexible drive shaft.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

This is a bit of a hybrid, each engine is geared, the cylinders power a flywheel that is geared to the wheels which are coupled ala The Big John. You could use their power trucks and add the extra bits....

There's usually a prototype for everything....


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Zeno, 

Are you dead set on electric power? If you have a lathe and mill why not try building a live steam loco? Plans are available for LBSCs "Virginia" that is a live steam 4-4-0 in 3.5" gauge. You can just build it more or less half size to run on G scale track. 

Another thought is that if you want to model std ga locos go for 1:32 which is great for electric power and you can probably find a lot of bits and parts not to mention cast parts like drivers. 

Early period locos are an interest of mine and I have a set of NYC&HR RR plans for the full scale loco in my closet. Truly an interesting period of railroading!


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

@ Totalwrecker, 

That Insular Lumber Co. switcher is a nice design. Thanks for posting. I like the flywheels opposite the cylinders that would add even more interest and movement. I see they also have the couplers mounted directly on the trucks where I had them mounted on the body. That might make more sense too on tight curves since the truck would be more in line with the freight car than the engine body would. 

I'm getting lots of ideas here. 

@ spincaster, 

Yeah I'm pretty set on the electric power. I have dreams of having these layouts computer controlled in the end. Getting into live steam would be a major departure from my original goals. So I'm going to stick with the electric. 

I am building an actual steam engine though from a kit. It's not a locomotive. It's just a stand alone "Coke-Bottle" steam engine. Like the following: 










I haven't started in on it yet. It's still in the box as parts like so: 










When finished I'll make a make-pretend boiler for it too. But I plan on actually running it with compressed air. 










This will go on the G-scale layout too as a power supply for a sawmill since I will be modeling a lumber operation. This thing stands about 6" tall. I think it will look ok on a G-scale layout. At Steam shows I've seen some pretty huge Coke-Bottle steam engines. 

I'm retired now so it's time to get out all these unfinished toys and play with them. (ha ha) I've had this kit for years.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Regarding steam lines on the Insular; it appears the central pivot of each truck (engine) is a steam pipe that delivers steam to the cylinders thru inside piping. The exhaust pipe in front of the cab is probably the rear truck exhaust, while the front engine exhausts thru the smoke box to aid drafting the fire. 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 22 May 2013 10:37 AM 
Regarding steam lines on the Insular; it appears the central pivot of each truck (engine) is a steam pipe that delivers steam to the cylinders thru inside piping. The exhaust pipe in front of the cab is probably the rear truck exhaust, while the front engine exhausts thru the smoke box to aid drafting the fire. 

John 
That's what I was thinking too. The steam is probably piped in through the pivot point of the truck and then run out to the cylinders via hard piping from the truck itself. That's what I'll plan on modeling. I just put some piping on the inner sides of the cylinders going directly to the trucks. Then just assume the rest of it is taken care of internally. 

The real design challenge for this electric model will be finding motors that are small enough to fit into these trucks along with a gearbox and still be powerful enough to give this switcher some oomph.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi,

What you are talking about with a pivot of the electric motor is as the Mason Bogie masterclass , 4-4-0 loco's they aren't but the 'mechanics worked out by David Fletcher for the Mason Bogie(s) Masterclass is valid if you use electric power. a good gearbox should be capable of doing the work required I think; Accucraft of course have both an electric and a steam version of the Mason Bogies, but I am fairly sure all have been sold. 

Here is a photo of the 2 6 6 chassis; with the motor in position, plus the (stainless steel) valve gear; I think the motor is a Pitmann.
























This is how the pivot works - the 'U' shaped channel is hidden inside the boiler, and the portion of the motor fills the vertical space inside the boiler- the firebox was filled with bent over lead sheet. The joint between the sections of 'U' channel is ther location of the firebox.

On my 286 version the motor mount is basically the same and surrounding it is a tube that protects it as below; that is fitted to the plate you can see; the chassis itself is multiple layers of styrene sheet, the motor is I believe a Pittman - I had the gearbox made in England for it; the rest I made. 










This is the custom gearbox unit in position - I had some spare channel just for this loco (from Barry Olsen) that was used as the smaller 266 version.










The full size locos were single Fairlie locos - very like the photos of the red loco of yours(?), and as shown in the book on Mason locos the steam pipe was the pivot, thus the valve gear had to be outside as there was no space between the frames .

Walschaerts was used in the later version, again the Mason locomotives book has a lot of drawings etc of the various valve gears.

Hope the above will assist.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for the posts. The pictures are very helpful.

I also found this web site on the Davenport Duplex engines. It does appear that they used flexible hoses to deliver the steam to the cylinders on the independent trucks.

Davenport Duplex Engines 

I've also been searching around for similar designs and it appears there were tons of really strange designs tried. So I have a lot of room to work with. I'm not going to try to model any specific engine precisely. But I may go with something very simliar to these Davenport Duplex engines. And least for my "Modified Big John". I want my finished engine to be as short as possible though. A nice little switcher. So I'm going to place my trucks as close together as I can get them. Pretty much like this picture I cut and pasted together:










I'm pretty happy with this basic design. 

Now getting back to designing the actual model. The placement of the electric motor will be crucial. 

I notice in the following picture posted by Peter the electric motor is closer to the center wheels. This is probably because the gearbox works best in that location. 










But I'll need the motor to be precisely centered between the axles of both wheels. The following photo looks like this electric motor is precisely centered between axles. So I'll need to figure out how to set up a gear box so the motor can be precisely midway between the axles.










Does anyone know what a typical gear ratio is used between a motor and the wheels? Obviously I'll need to work within a practical gear ratio. 

Also, where can I find detailed information, drawings, or blueprints for linkage. I'd especially like to find more detailed information on those Davenports and how they work in that extra flywheel.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Zeno, 

I can't give an answer for the exact gear ratio but it depends on the typical prototype speed, the diameter of the wheels and the RPM of the motor for a given voltage and load. Well, something to that effect. I think it is the way you need to approach things to find the correct answer. Even Bachmann have problems working this out it seems.









Perhaps 25:1 ~ 30:1 Depends on the type of locomotive and RPM of the motor.

Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I've decided on a wheel diameter of 1.5" for the Davenport switchers. 

I've draw up some crude drawings of what the wheels will look like. Although this isn't exactly what I want because I'm having trouble with getting the CAD software to draw precisely what I have in mind. But this is a good general idea of what the wheels will look like on each powered truck.










This is also about as close as I'd like these wheels to be on each truck. Although that's open to change. 

I'm drawing this up in AutoCAD, so I've decided to go with 3-D drawings. The above was only drawn in 2-D.

Moving on to a 3-D drawing I've decided to start by drawing up the "rims" or outermost part of the wheel. I still have a very long way to go with this drawing. I'm still learning how to describe radii on polylines. So much of this is going to be re-learning AutoCAD. I haven't drawn anything in AutoCAD in quite a few years.

In any case as I draw the rim two things have occurred to me. One idea is that it might be nice to make these outermost rims out of stainless steel with brass spoke wheel inserts.

This is a really crude drawing of the rim with flange. As I gain better control over drawing polylines I'll add the radii and angles on all these surfaces. So just drawing up this rim is an adventure in AutoCAD. The nice thing about it is that I only need to draw each wheel once and then I have all 8 of them in 3-D.










*Electrical Insulation*

Another thing that I'm working on is where to electrically insulate these wheels. Clearly I can't make them all metal with metal axles as that would just short the tracks together. So I'm thinking that the most reasonable place to insulate them is between the outer rim and the inner spoke wheel. This will also allow me to have a metal inner rim that I can bolt the linkage to without having to worry about the linkage becoming electrically live as well. 

So my current thought is to make stainless steel rims that are electrically insulated from the brass spoke inner wheel. 

Any thoughts concerning this? 

There are several ways that this can be accomplished. Right now I have three basic ideas.

1. Use a thin rubber or Teflon washer between the rim and inner wheel.
2. Use O-rings between the rim and inner wheel.
3. Epoxy the rim to the inner wheel using electrically inert epoxy. 

Currently I'm favoring either #1 or #2

*Supply Question*

I've also been working on linkage for these wheels and I'm wondering where I can find a supplier of tiny screws that can be used for linkage? Especially the shoulder screws that can be tightened down and still have a place for the linkage to run free.

In fact, it would be nice to know where I can find really tiny screws in general. Like watch-making screws. I'd like to stock up on a nice inventory of screws that I can design around. I can see where I'll be using a lot of really tiny screws.

Thanks.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Good question. I had a look at my electric Accucraft W&L 'Countess' to see where they insulate things. It does seem to be at the join between the tires and wheels. I'n not sure how though. There is a slight gap and after poking around in there I noticed a fair amount oil present in the recess. I'm not sure if it is there as a part of assembling the wheels or just rubbed in there from lubricating other parts. I would imagine there is a flat soft plastic insulator that sits in a shallow recess of the wheel and the tire pressed on. Could you use water poly pipe as a source for an insulating material and stretch to suit the required diameter then finally turn down for the correct interference fit? 
It would be interesting to know if anyone has pulled an Accucraft locomotive wheel apart.


These guys may be worth a look for small screws etc.
http://www.microfasteners.com/ 

Andrew


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Posted By Zeno on 06 Jun 2013 1
I'm wondering where I can find a supplier of tiny screws that can be used for linkage?




Try this thread: Screw Supplier Thread


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for the quick tip on Micro Fasteners. Looks like they have a nice selection at affordable prices.


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