# For pulling POWER diesel or steam?



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Howdy All 
Question for sheer pulling power what is the best way to go diesel or steam? I really like the look of steam engines and all the bits and pieces of mechanical ingenuity that makes them go not to mention the character of a steam engine that the new diesels just don't seem to have. I have several steam engines, I should say electric that looks like steam, including a shay, heisler and climax. Love em but even they seem limited in their pulling power. I have had my eye on a USA trains GP30 for some time now in the Chessie colours but how good is it? How does USA trains stack up to Aristocraft? I have some 5' diameter curves on my layout so I need to stick with a 4 wheel engine versus a 6 wheel else I would go for a SD 45. I do have grades approaching 3% but say we put a 38 ton Shay and a GP30 next to each other on flat level track which will be able to pull more cars? Which is more likely to slip and possibly damage gears? Trying to get parts for a shay is very difficult but I would assume not so hard for a USA or Aristo. I'm looking for a workhorse engine that will haul around a track cleaning car etc... that I won't have to worry about destroying.


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I would suggest using a USA Trains F3's AB units. Both are powered units. 

http://usatrains.com/usatrainslocof3.html 

I have some that the grandkids have ran for many years and still holding up. They have been real work horses.


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Dual powered units sound good Livesteam53 but for over $700!! That's too rich for my poor RR. Plus I like the style of the GP series engines, and I like even better that they are not much more than $200. They do have 2 motors but weight and traction are also factors in the pulling power arena. Does a geared Bachmann loco have better power than a 2 motored diesel GP30?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My most impressive pullers are my e8's, although I don't have a SD45. 

I remove traction tires, so my USAT diesels don't have much pulling power, I figure mostly because they weigh less... simple physics. 

I'm not sure that my non-ball bearing USAT locos will stand a lot more weight, but with the ready availability of USAT wheelsets, I think I will give adding weight a try. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

The formulae for working out the effective effort of a model locomotive have been around since 1904. Basically for each Kilogramme of weight that is taken by the driving wheels 230 Grammes of that is available for traction, So, in a C0-C0 loco that weighs 5 Kilogrammes, 1.150 Kilogrammes is the maximum tractive effort. While for an A1A-A1A loco, 766 Grammes would be the maximum. Electric traction motors develop their peak torque at far lower rotational speeds than a steam loco using pistons, thus pull better at lower speeds. The P.L.A.N. formula gives the peak power of your steam loco -but this does not really work too well at Gauge 1 and smaller scales... A more accurate formula (or rather less inaccurate!) is to use simple physics and ignore adiabatic and isothermal effects and treat the system as one under constant thrust with no lead and lap effects. 

regards

ralph


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You missed the coefficient of friction being different for traction tires I think. 

With the suspensions on model trains, I don't think we get anywhere near theoretical. 

By simple empirical evidence USAT locos pull more with traction tires than without, no other changes. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Whoa! 

Steam pistons???? Steam outline electric drive.... wrong apples.... 
If you are comparing 2 motor dismals then perhaps an articulated w/ 2 motor blocks is the model to compare.... ignore the pilot and pony trucks, they don't carry a scale load, if you use Ralph's logic.

John


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

In this instance, I would say anecdotal evidence is going to be more reliable as an indicator of which brand and type of Large Scale locomotive pulls the most cars. 

Dave Goodson has first hand experience of a battery powered R/C controlled early Bachmann Shay hauling 30 + pieces of stock up a 4 % grade. Of course the plating was worn off the wheels which aided adhesion and thus hauling power.


----------



## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I had an Aristo Craft Pacific that was 17 years old. It can pull a Volkswagen, lol. Gave it to my son, he rebuilt it (he's a marine electrician) and God only knows what it will pull now. It also has a high speed and can handle a 4% grade. This is a link to his site. http://users.eastlink.ca/~brownscountry/index/Home.html


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I had an aristocraft Pacific which was an excellent puller. I cut it down to make an Atlantic out of it (4-4-2 instead of 4-6-2) and it pulls better as an Atlantic. The weight is the same, so I can only figure it's because the shorter wheelbase tracks better through curves. The Atlantic is a better puller than my Aristo Rs-3. 

I believe in real life that the bigger steam engines,like the northerns, were far better individual pullers than the diesels that replaced them, but the diesels were far better in terms of maintenance costs and ease of consisting--three Rs-3s were cheaper and more effective than one northern


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Greg.... 

I did use the standard figures for steel to steel rather than steel to A.N.OTHER -this is because I cannot define what the coefficient of the frictive medium used for the tyres(!) The suspension does not really affect the tractive effort -but does play a part in how the power curve is delivered to the track. At a constant speed the suspension does not affect the tractive effort -but while the loco is applying power and braking with its motors then "tramping", "rearing" and "shimmy" of the drive wheels to the rails should be absorbed by the suspension and the stored energy returned to the direction of thrust. 

UK Railway Terms Glossary: 

Axle Tramping = the action of the driven axle gear wheel to force one side of the axle into the rail lowering the load on the wheel at the other end of the axle -sometimes to the point where the wheel will lift off the rail. 
Bogie Rearing = the action due to "weight transfer" during load and braking in which the transfer can lower the effective weight on a bogie causing the flanges on the wheel to climb the rail. 
Wheel Shimmy = the action of a wheel when changing speed to act as a gyroscope and present a precessional force to the bogie -causing the wheel to lift especially while cornering. 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Weight on drivers times .23, eh? An interesting bit of information to have handy. Perhaps it may vary a bit for brass wheels or plating.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ralph. 

Actually the coefficient of friction should only be related to kinetic friction, not static friction. 

My point, which may not have been obvious (but I knew Ralph already knows) is that with the suspension and bumping around, our locos may be in a state of kinetic friction even when starting out (occasional wheelslip) because of the suspension causing intermittent contact with the rails. 

Kinetic friction is lower than static friction. 

But just us physics-heads worry about stuff like this. 

I'm in the general frame of mind that - as Tony says - the empirical (he said anecdotal, same meaning here) evidence is probably the best to go by. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow alot of great answers here from some very intelligent people that have actually gone way beyond my original question and my understanding. 
I'm not a rocket scientist after all! LOL 
But really to rephrase my question removing the real world friction ratios etc... What pulls better right out of the box with no modifiications, is more reliable with less maintenance and less worry about blowing out a gear, a bachmann shay or any of their geared loco offerings, a USAT GP 30 or GP38 2 motor diesel, or an equivalent 4 axle aristocraft diesel style engine? 
And if i could add in one other question... which is easier to convert to battery power, a steam or a diesel? I would suspect the diesel. 
Thanks for your answers. 
Todd


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have a 4 axle Aristo with the new prime mover (only the GP-40 is in this class). 

I've had poor luck with the other Aristo 4 axle trucks, I think the older (bearings in sideframes, sprung) style were more rugged than the newer style. But I think they pull better than a USAT 4 axle that has no traction tires. 

With traction tires, the USAT will pull better, but you might get a split axle. Notwithstanding that, I think the USAT 4 axle trucks are lower maintenance. 

The bachmann products all have split gear or other problems, even though the shay is quite a puller. 

If I wanted the lowest maintenance best 4 axle puller I would get a GP-40. 

Next choice would be an RS-3 

If the criteria was only pulling power, a USAT 4 axle with traction tires (but my experience is more maintenance) 

It's not as simple as a go no go here. Also, you have mentioned 1:20.3 and 1:29 locos. 

On the easiest to convert... Aristo locos with a socket.... take your pick, they are all dead easy. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The new Shay trucks are reportedly quite good. I don't have one myself, so I'm left to go on the experiences of others, but from what I'm led to believe, the "new" truck design fixed the issues that plagued the original model. Those who run them have demonstrated them to be very good pullers. (While chasing down a rampant spammer this morning, I came across a post from someone using his Shay to plow snow. If anything's gonna stress your gears, it's that.) I've got a B'mann Heisler, and it's been beautifully reliable for coming on 7 years now. I've never physically tested its pulling power, but it's certainly demonstrated no lack of strength that I've seen. The Climax is a lighter locomotive than either the Shay or Heisler, so I'd be led to believe it's not quite as strong a puller, but not having one to compare, that's just speculation. 

In terms of converting to battery power, given the options you're looking at, I'd say the diesels would probably be a bit easier for no other reason than you've got the benefit of the entire hood to play with for room. The Shay's bunker is a bit smaller, and your Tetris skills will come into greater play. 

Later, 

K


----------



## RGSW (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm testing my new "Big John" Dunkirk Geared Locomotive by Hartland Locomotive Works, (HLW), made in the USA, warranteed for one year or 800 hours commercial use. It was pulling a heavy sound box car plus 11 tank cars with steel wheels and a caboose up a 2 percent grade all day and evening last Thursday. Iit's kinda ugly but powerful with a motor in each truck and sells for around $300 depending on the deal. It's not a diesel but so far so good.


----------



## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

I would have to second Ron's recommedation, the Hartland "Big John" has got to the most unheralded LS work-horse 
ever built, have one here that has about 4,000 hours on it, an it'll still pull the house down...
Paul R...


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

For converting to battery power the diesel would be easier due to having a bit more room to work on and maybe hold the battery. You could also build a battery car and put it behind the steam loco and then not worry where the battery goes.

Far as the 4 axle diesels I'd go with the AC GP 40 due to not having to deal with USAT traction tires and then worry about gear problem coming loose from the axle if you over tax the unit. Later RJD


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

While dismals have hoods, Steamers have tenders and empty boilers. In my small 2-8-0 the batteries went in the boiler and the electronics in the tender. To make up the weight I added lead shot where ever I could. She pulls the same as before....


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I always put the batteries in the tender.

With Diesel, you don't have rods to worry about. I have steam


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

For steamers with tenders, absolutely the tender's ideally suited for the electronics. It's the locos without tenders that present the challenges. Not insurmountable by any means--and getting much easier with smaller battery technology--but still requires a bit of additional thinking. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Prototypically? It depends.... A steam locomotive can easily pull a train that it can't start. A diesel, OTOH, can start a train that it can't pull. It's all in the mechanics of how they produce their power.


Most of us worry more about which kind we LIKE more, over which has the most absolute pulling power. If you're needing more 'oomph' you simply do what the real RRs did... you add a second (third, fourth, 6th) unit. I've seen something like a 5 diesel lashup on the head end and 2 pushing in coal drags on Horseshoe curve. With steam you would have had a double or triple header, a mid train helper(or two), and a pusher.... The only limits are your mainline, your wallet, your power supply, and your ingenuity.


If all you are concerned about is pulling stumps, as suggested, look into the HLW Big John.


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I looked up the BIG JOHN and you guys are right it is not the best looking engine out there but it looks like muscle and that it could haul a ton but I am more interested in a diesel. From what I am learning here from your answers is that an Aristo GP40 does not have a traction tire like a USAT GP38 uses. So if the USAT hits a bad spot while pulling a heavy load and starts to spin the traction wheels could transfer the energy to the gears and do some damage VS the Aristo that doesn't have traction tires so that one would just sit and spin its wheels. A friend of mine has an Aristo RS3 and he loves it so I know that is a good engine but I like the looks of the GP style. 
It would seem that you guys are leaning towards the Aristocraft engine vs the USAT which is interesting. One of my concerns is the Aristo scale of 1:29, I have a mix of LGB and Bachmann engines and their size seems to play well together but will the Aristo diesel look way out of place. 
I have enough juice to run 2 or 3 engines on the main at the same time but not lashed together. If one engine is faster than the other wouldn't that put an undue strain on both drivelines?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You want a diesel to go with your 1:20.3 Bachmann and your 1:whatever LGB and 1:29 looks out of place? 

I sure hope so! hahahahahaha 

Seriously, you should have stated this before... you want a larger scale diesel. Do you want a narrow gauge one? If you are concerned about appearances I would stick to 1:20.3, but you are not going to find a 1:20.3 LARGE diesel with a bunch of pulling power. 

No matter what 1:29 you buy, it won't scale "right" next to the other locos. 

Yes, speed mismatch can cause problems too. 

I think you need to sit down and ponder this a bit more... seems your priorities are not quite hashed out... 

scale 
pulling power 
maintenance 
speed compatibility with other locos (which ones) 

If you are going to stay with narrow gauge prototypes, or weird scale steam, which is about 1:22 or whatever, you might want a bachmann Davenport, but sounds like you want big muscle and modern. 

That is NOT available in narrow gauge at any reasonable price and modern won't look right next to a NG steamer. 

Why not just bite the bullet and don't run them next to each other? Get any Aristo or USAT diesel. They will all do fine. If you need more pulling power than one loco, buy another and doublehead. If you are constantly trying to extract the maximum power from a loco, you will probably wear it out prematurely any way. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

The definitive answer: (okay, I'm being obnoxiously egotisitcal with that statement... but, I bet it got your attention ;-) )

Anyways, my thoughts:

The Bachmann Shay (and Climax and heisler) and the Aristo or USA Geeps (GP's or "General Purpose") are, for all practicality, the same engine. In each case, the locomotive is a solid frame supported by two pivoting, self-contained power assemblies. Those assemblies are all two-axle trucks. Both axles are geared to a single motor through worm and pinion gears.

This means you need to consider the aspects of other issues. Bachmann's trucks have a history of issues, however by most reports they seem to have solved the issues in the later revisions. I have an early edition, which reduces my ability to state facts here. However, one thing to consider... there is now a 3-truck shay available (a premium price though). And prototypically, there were 4-truck shays. This would effectively increase your pulling power. However, there is the maintenance issue.... The shays and other logging engines have metal rods which need periodic lubing, much like the original prototypes. Is this an issue for you?

The USA trucks have the split axle issue. Are you willing to deal with this? The good thing with this engine is the increased tractive effort created by the use of traction tires. However, this is also a bad issue, and might be at the heart to the split axle(though I don't know this to be true)... When overloaded, the traction tyre will prevent slipping. This means the locomotive will stall out. The motor will stop turning, yet the torque created by the magnetic fields in the motor will still be present. This WILL put strain on the gears. If the traction tyre is on one wheel on an axle, and not on the other, it could create uneven torque conditions within the axle. IF you can figure out the limits of the engine and ensure you don't exceed its mechanical limits, the USA traction tyre equipped truck will serve you well. To overcome the reduced power pickup created by the traction tyre, they are equipped with sliders like the LGB products. As traction tyres age, they dry out and become brittle. Eventually they will tear apart and come out, leaving a heavy groove in the surface of the wheel, necessitating the locomotive's removal from service.


The CURRENT Aristo truck is equipped with ball bearings within the drive train. This will allow it to handle a great deal of additional weight to act as ballast to increase its tractive effort. The bad: Aristo's quality control issues are well known, however they always backup their products. If there is an issue, they will work with you to solve it. Aristo has consistently stated that they do no like the sliders' toy-like appearance, and consequently designed a modular ball-bearing equipped gearbox to allow them to skip the traction tyres and use pure adhesive weight for traction. The advantage here is that unlike traction tyres, which adhere to the rail through friction, the steel Aristo wheels adhere to the rail through gravity. When the load being pulled by the engine exceeds the adhesive weight of the engine, the engine will stall. Unlike the USA diesels, the wheels are free to slip on the rail surface. From the time the locomotive stalls until the wheels break free of the rail, there will be increased stress on the gearing. 


Once the wheels break free and begin to spin, the stress will be reduced. As long as you don't weigh now the engine with an excessive amount of weight, the traction motor's torque will always exceed the adhesive weight of the engine. There is a down side to a stall with the wheels spinning. Like any metal on metal without lubrication, there will be a tendency for the metal to be destroyed. This will usually end up with depressions ground into the rail... definitely in aluminum rail, most likely in brass. I don't know which is harder... the steel drive wheels or the stainless steel rails. I believe Aristo said the wheels were harder, but I don't know if anyone who has confirmed this. The decision to be made is which is easier to deal with? a locomotive out of service until its traction power systems are repaired, or like the real railroads, cutting out a bad section or rail and replacing it?


Your decision should probably be based on two factors: 

1) Do you want steam or diesel? 


Steam? then your choice is:
Bachmann: 2-truck shay, heisler, climax or three-truck shay
Hartland's Big John, (which could be bashed to look more like a climax or Hiesler, check the model making forum)

Diesel? Here you have a much wider choice:
Aristocraft: FA-1 & FB-1 (individually or sets), RS-3, GP-40, or the RS-3-based Centercab

Bachmann: You might still be able to find their GE Centercab switcher
USA Trains: GP-7/9, GP-30, GP-38-2, Alco S4, GE 44-ton Centercab, NW-2 (calf&cow sets available)


In both steam and diesel outlines, you could also consider two (or three) doubleheaded little critter engines. Aristo has their little RS-1/3 or their 0-4-0 Steam switcher. Bachmann has a variety of x-4-x based steam engines you could consider. Hartland has their little Macks in both diesel & electric version. USA has their critter based on the NW-2 (an NW-1/2?) but I see its not listed on teh site anymore. There are a host of smaller LGB engines that go on ebay at any given time. Two of these could help as well. If you were to go with teh critter option, I'd highly recommend adding "heavy" wires to make them electrically one engine, basically giving you steam Geep. 


Your other question was about mismatched speeds... I've given this a lot of thought lately. If you ever see pictures/video of the NS yard crews working in Enola or Altoona (both PA yards), they are often using a remote controlled GP-38 coupled to an MP15DC, which is the modern equivalent to the old NW-2 or Alco S4. They don't match speeds either.


Here is my thought on the issue: every time we pull a train, we have speed-mismatched equipment: The engine is always faster than a freight car (unless the brakes are released and the car is rolling down hill) Test the engines you want to lash together. if they are fairly close, it shouldn't matter which order you put them in the consist. If you are running a VERY light train, or there is a large speed difference, I'd put the faster one in the front. This is because it be no different than putting a large train behind it that forces it to slow down. 

However, I would NOT try to run a shay with a Geep.

Oh, that brings up one thought I wanted to caution you about. The Shay is a good puller because of its gearing. Changing the gearing increases the torque available to the wheels, but reduces its top speed. If you have big hills and kids who like to run at "light speed", this could be a benefit... the shay's gearing will make it impossible for it to go careening out of control and wrecking at the bottom of the grade (or on any curves on the grade). However, it's top speed might be too slow for your preferences. You might want to consider this factor in making your decision. The shay, hiesler and climax all run significantly slower than any other engine on the market.


Good luck on your choice, let us know. I personally am planning on double headed LGB 2-4-0's for the branchline on my railroad while 4-6-2, 2-8-2 and other big steam ply the mainline.


----------



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want a large, American outline, AND narrow gauge diesel -- your choices are rather limited. Right out of the box anyway. The only two off the top of my head are the LGB made model of the ones White Pass has, and Bachmann's monstrous 45 ton centercab thing they made for a short while. Both can still be found.......... occasionally. I have no experience with the pulling power of either unit.




















Another option would be to BUILD one. The USA Trains S-4 might be a good start to build the huge Porter that's now at the Georgetown Loop .
Judge for yourself:


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I had one of the LGB DL535's shown in Mik's post above. It was a good engine, ran really smooth. Pulling power was not that great, but not that bad, either.


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow thanks for all the informative input to my original question but it may have gotten a bit out of focus here and there. The original question if I could narrow it down here was which was a better hauler a steam or diesel engine? I didn't mean the real deal but our little toys for big boys collectively known as G scale trains. I am no rivet counter but I strive for the "feel" of realism. I do mix up the scales I run LGB USAT and Bachmann equipment. I have one Aristo track cleaning caboose and I have to admit it does look a little odd behind the Bachmann 38 ton shay but LGB and USAT boxcars etc.. don't look all that bad. I can live with it. 
Having one of each of the geared locos by Bachmann, and 3 LGB engines including a Forney I have found that the best puller of the bunch up and down my grades which approach 3% in spots is the Shay. If we take the shay which I believe has the better trucks and put it head to head with either an Aristo say GP40 and a USAT GP 38 which will be the better puller? I'm not looking to haul 20 cars + physics is physics but maybe routinely 6-7 without blowing gears. If anyone has experience with these engines and what I can expect from them let me know. Is the shay as good as it gets in this company? 
I prefer the scale of the USAT because I think it will fit in better with the other locos where as the Aristo would be on the small side. I don't want to double head them but if one was to pass another on a siding I want to have the "feel" that they belong on the same track. 
Traction tires aside I think I will be going with the USAT due to size and the fact they produce one in the Lehigh valley colours which is close to the Cape Cod Central RR engine that I want to reproduce. Remove the lettering, paint the roof black, new lettering and stripes and it is done. 
Thanks again to all for the input. 
Todd


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Just for your info the uSAT equipment and the Aristo are both 1/29th. Stay away from USAT unless you change out the traction tires as said you will be tearing up gears if using on a grade and pulling to many cars. Later RJD


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

If all you will ever pull is going to be 6 - 7 cars then all of the locos will likely be able to cope. 

More than that is when the test will come in. 
Bear in mind that the Bachmann geared locos are in effect constructed the same way as the various BoBo diesel engines. Therefore, they will likely perform much the same.


----------



## jgallaway81 (Jan 5, 2009)

Between the Shay, USA GP-38-2 and an Aristo GP-40, I'd say your best bet is the GP-40.

The Shay has the benefit of steam outline. This also is a detractor in that all those metal detail parts in the running gear need to be lubed... you did mention maintenance as a consideration. It has been on the market nearly as long as the GP-38, so its capabilities long term are pretty well known by now.


The GP-38 is a USA Trains product. USA's quality control is better than Aristocrafts... however I've never dealt with their customer service, so if something does go wrong, I can't tell you what to expect. The 38 includes sliders and traction tires. This increases the number of pickups for trackpower and increases traction. The tire also is a maintenance point. When the tire goes bad (and it will, its a consumable product just like a tire for your car) the engine will need to be sidelined until you get replacement tires and have the time to do the work needed to install it. While the initial result may be better, long tern, the split axle issue might come to bite you. While as a general rule the USA trains have a higher level of detail, usually that detail is extremely fragile, and ends up being broke off anyways.


The GP-40 is the newest release from Aristocraft. It features the multi-ball-bearings of the patented "Prime Mover" drive system. The lack of sliders will become apparent if your track gets exceptionally dirty. However, because the ball bearings support the engine, if you find that you need to add an extra pound or two of weight to increase your engine's adhesion, you shouldn't have any problems from the drive. The ability to slip the wheels when overloaded will save you the headache of a damaged engine. Aristo's customer service is top notch. The GP-40's haven't been reported with many problems, (actually, I haven't read of any yet). But if something slipped past the QC inspectors, Aristo's people WILL stand behind their product and make it right. Plus, if you have any questions on the engine, you can contact anyone in the company through their forum. Even the CEO.


I personally am biased against the USA engines... their bricks just don't seem as heavy duty as the aristo ones. My only problem with the aristo drives was with my mallet. And in response, they paid to have mine shipped back to their facility, and sent me a brand new in box engine. When I asked about some irreplacable detail parts on the original... they mailed me my cab and boiler from the first unit.


I have a Bachmann shay. While I love the unit's looks, I have found one of my trucks to have siezed. Was working in October when the tourist railroad I had it running at shut down for the season, and wouldn't restart in December when we reopened for the Santa trains.

I had an Aristo 0-4-0 switcher running on the same overhead layout as the shay. it hit a bad joint and tumbled from nine feet in the air to a hard wood floor... striking a vintage church pew on its way to the ground. The bell popped free from the harp, and a tiny chip was taken out of the corner of the cab wall. From then on, I've tried to give my business to Aristo. 


As Tony said, for 6-7 cars, you likely won't be taxing any of the engines, but the superior loading capabilities of the Aristo GP-40 gives you a larger margin of error.


As for looks, Aristo's GP-40 and USA's GP-38-2 are both 1/29th scale. They will be practically the same size (within the limits of the differences in the sizes of the prototypes). USA does make some 1/24th scale classic designed stuff, as Aristo does as well since they bought the old 1/24th scale Delton molds. Depending on what you have from USA, the comparable model from Aristo will be the same scale. They both offer modern equipment in 1/29th while the older 1880's narrow gauge stuff is produced in 1/24th.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, if you go by problems, the GP40 has had more than USAT. The USAT cracked axle problem is well known, and easy to repair. 

The GP40's have had many problems with poor wheel plating, minor assembly details, and a few with bad motors (never seen in any other Aristo's)... the GP 40 motors are different from the proven 3 axle motor blocks. 

So, in terms of reliability, on this one I would take the USAT GP38. I did recommend the GP40 on pulling and the ability to add weight because of ball bearings. 

Comparing diesels with a geared steam loco is sort of not really apples to apples. 

Again, I'm feeling your desire to find the best puller a bit disconcerting. Get the loco you like best. Get another later if you need to pull more cars. Don't run any loco near it's limit. All you will get is excessive wear and frustration. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Test data is good. 

See the link for some. Note that while there are many kinds of locos, the sample size for each is small and some are not box stock. 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips4/tractive_effort_tests.html


----------



## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

I haven't had any problems with my USA F3 which uses the same block as the GP-7, 30, 38, etc.. But, if you get one of those, you will be responsible for fixing the known ills, namely replacing the wheel sets and gears. It isn't as simple as made out and luckily there are folks on the internet who have already figured out the pitfalls of the swap out. I haven't done it and hopefully never will. That F3 is a good puller and has, in the past, been one of our most frequent runners. 

That is of course if you really want a diesel. 

Now, for steam, given the tight turns, I'd be considering an LGB mogul or mikado. Maybe even one of their 2-4-0s, if you could find one. Possbily an AML 0-6-0 switcher, but I don't know if those make a 5' curve or not. Of course, an LGB mikado is gigantic and somewhat hard to come by these days and has significant overhang on tight curves. Both of those LGB engines have traction tires. Early LGB mikados have a gearing issue that can be avoided by getting a later run mikado. 

But, if all you really want is a cheap workhorse, I have a New Haven 44-tonner for sale in the classifieds. Traction tires, original gears, new cab.


----------



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Yet more great answers and input to my questions, Thanks! That was a nice and interesting comparison chart you posted George from what I could tell I already have one of the best right out of the box pullers in the Shay. No need to add extra weight. It seems for me after reading all these comments the way to go is with the USAT. I seldom run anything to the max and prefer shorter trains anyways. Plus I don't ususally run for endless hours at a time. As for cost after looking around it seems that the USAT GP38 is near $100 cheaper than an Aristo GP40. I have been to Charles Ro several times and they do make a fine looking engine. I haven't actually seen that many Aristos in person except for my friends RS3 which he loves. Maybe having Charlie Ro a couple hour drive away is also a factor to consider in my purchase. 
What concerns me with all the comments posted is all the trouble these engines that we pay so much money for can be damaged, faulty or even assembled wrong right from the factory, I can understand the need to lubricate on a regular basis to keep things rolling smooth but when something cracks, splits, falls off or outright melts under normal operating conditions than something is wrong at the base level of manufacturing but that is an ongoing concern and best left to another forum. 
Todd


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a lot more "success" stories than problems in most cases. 

Remember there are few people who start a thread: "I just wanted to post that I have no problems with my locomotive". 

It's only natural that the majority of the posts are about things that need fixing, or people who need help. 

I have a lot of USAT locos and am very happy. Buy what you want and stop worrying. You can buy a GP40 next year ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


----------

