# 3 phase colours trouble...



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I know that I have yet to finish my current loco -but already I am planning the next one... And here I have run into trouble. The loco will have a 7.5cc marine glow engine turning an "outside runner" 3 phase electric aeroplane motor so that it becomes a 3 phase alternator. Both of these are easy to source -they are not the problem.

What IS the problem is the cable colour coding used by EU and Japan/US/Can which will provide the engine and motor.

Here in the EU the DC colour coding is this: Red Positive. Black Negative. Blue and Yellow are DC of variable but ALWAYS opposing polarity. Green with a Yellow stripe is always EARTH. The 3 phase AC colours are Blue, Black, Brown, Grey. The Single phase AC colours are Blue, Brown with Green/Yellow as EARTH.

OK -most of the "sparkies" reading this will go "*ARRGHHH NO!" as the realisation hits them!!!! 

What I have coming out of the 3 phase outside runner motor are RED, YELLOW, and BLUE cables.... 

THUS any EU trained sparkie would look at the cables and go "aha! This is a DC cable" and promptly blow it(!) 

The question I would like advice on is this: do I go through the entire stock of Canadian and Japanese sourced devices I have in front of me and rewire the whole lot in EU colour coding (which is going to be a complete ugh! but probably safer) or tag each cable with ring markers and index it back to a master drawing (which could get lost).

Any thoughts?

regards

ralph*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My thought is why worry? Are you going to have someone else work on your loco, or are you selling it to someone in another country? 

If it was me, knowing that I am about as anal as you are (by the way, that is a compliment), then I would rewire/code it to match the standards of the country I reside in, AND probably put labels on the wires to boot. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Aren't the wires correctly coded? I thought those motors are DC using a microcontroller to generate the pulses? I'm not sure a brushless motor is what you want to act as an alternator.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph

Don't know as to the size of the completed locomotive, but regardless of whether you decide to manually go through and re-wire all the component parts to a given color-code standard. An appropriate sized paper wiring index laminated, or maybe an etched anodised-aluminum/brass enamel/fused-glass filled one attached somewhere within the inside of the shell would provide a viable answer. Just a thought, that I hope may prove to be of some help.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

That "why worry" comment "worries" me... A portion of my house was re-wried by a fellow that figured it was his house and he knew which wires he ran where so it didn't matter what colors he used or how he ran them.

When I moved in I needed to add an outlet in the basement and in the box I was going to tie into I found all red wires runing to the 3 connectors (hot, neutral, and safety ground) of the socket and I had no idea if it was wired "right". I fixed that by pulling new wires, but in the process I discovered red, white, green, orange and black wires in the main electrical panel, some of each tied to the ground bus as well as to the hot side of the various circuit breakers. I pulled new wires for all of that. And in that process I discovered that apparently he had a 240volt clothes dryer, but didn't want to purchase a 240V socket for it to plug into, so he ran the 3 wires to a standard 120V socket and replaced the plug on the dryer with a 120V plug. I wonder what would have happened if I had not found that before I plugged my machine tools workbench into that socket?

I also found that someone had connected the BARE ground/earth wire to the Black HOT lead in the garage where the outside wires came in and were distributed to the lights and sockets. Someone then extended the wiring from one socket to another where they followed color codes and the bare ware was connected to the safety ground pin. The box was mounted on a nice, dry wood stud so the leakage to ground was not too bad, but imagine plugging something into that socket

Granted, a TOY is not something that could endanger a life in later years after the one that built it has moved on to bigger and better things... But how do you want to be remembered by those that might inheret your workmanship... "Wow, this guy sure knew is stuff!" or maybe the thoughts I have about the fellow that re-wired my house?


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); This will be a Gauge '3' Locomotive... Gauge '3' is normally thought of as the point when they cease to be models and become small locos. The person I am most worried about is sat beside me munching Digestive biscuits and slurping his mug of cocoa. No, the loco is never likely to leave the EU -but I have had experience with relatives who "knew what they were doing", in the wiring dept, a then teenager from "Walnut Creek" on a visit to the UK is a prime example!!! He will learn the std EU colour coding and when he "borrows" the completed loco will have to be able to fault find it -as may his friends. So, on the balance of it -it will be wired from scratch in EU coding -plus the tags. 

I am going to have to scratch all the pretty paint off the terminals and then paint then the "correct" colours.

Thanks for your thoughts.

regards

ralph


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 15 Sep 2011 09:03 AM 


*What I have coming out of the 3 phase outside runner motor are RED, YELLOW, and BLUE cables.... *

*THUS any EU trained sparkie would look at the cables and go "aha! This is a DC cable" and promptly blow it(!) *

*The question I would like advice on is this: do I go through the entire stock of Canadian and Japanese sourced devices I have in front of me and rewire the whole lot in EU colour coding (which is going to be a complete ugh! but probably safer) or tag each cable with ring markers and index it back to a master drawing (which could get lost).*

*Any thoughts?*

*
**Ralph -*


My thoughts are:

a. Any 'sparkie', techie, whatever, should be smart enough to realize that a product intended for markets outside of Europe can't be expected to necessarily follow a European colour scheme, so if he damages the device, it's his own fault.

In any case, one should always consult the manufacturing documentation.

But to answer your question - what about just recolouring the insulation to match the European colour scheme?
I have seen that done on house wiring in Canada - no reason why that couldn't be a relatively simple solution in your case.

The recolouring was just done on the last couple of inches or so of the wire.


Knut


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut: 

"Sparkie" is UK slang for electrician. The one I am most worried about has gone to bed after doing his school homework... The documentation I have been sent by family in Medicine Hat is in French and English (the French version makes sense!). What I have decided to do is take apart the stuff and rewire it with EU cable colours and EU cable sizes and then rewrite the documentation in English as opposed to English as she is spoken(!) Yes it voids the warrenty etc -but to be honest I am not overly concerned as I fully expect something to go bang during the experimental phase of operations. 

regards 

ralph


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

This guy used a 3 phase rectifier to get power out of the brushless motor (for those of you who dont know how to make a brushless motor generate power), I definitively want to build one of these one day (in a train)


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

RYB are standard 3 phase AC colours here in NZ, curious to know where we parted ways with the mother country.. AFAIK Australia uses the same with white often substituted in the middle phase.

As a trained sparky in both DC and HV AC systems I would stop immediately when I saw three wires coming from a supposedly DC motor (with no earth wire). Engage brain - start asking Q's - and never trust the drawings. 

Bang!?







You never know the limits unless you test them









Cheers
Neil


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Neil, 

Well it began about 2000, and was formally adopted in 2004. There was a "transition period" from 2004 to 2006 when it was possible to use R.Y.B. but there after all 3 phase had to be Bl.Bk.Br.Gy and Gr/Yw as EARTH. These are actually the new IEC colours for 3 phase. 

We still use the IEEE colour set: Black Brown Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Violet Grey White Pink Turquoise 

If I ever built a loco for my wife it would have to have Pink and Turquoise cabling in it -she would insist on it!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Tag the wires. Then glue a diagram to the inside of the engine/tender. Then they can not loose the diagram.

JJ


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