# Snowblowers NT/OT



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

We got a foot of snow today..
While a foot of snow is a non-story in Rochester..(it slows the city down for about 5 minutes, but then things are right back to normal..)

a foot of snow does however have a big impact on me personally! 
I have a LARGE driveway to shovel!









A storm like this requires over an hour of serious strenuous shoveling to clear the driveway..
its really a bit too much..


This is the third winter in the new house..and its time to get a snowblower..(snow-thrower)

I know next to nothing about them..actually, I have never even used one even once in my life..
I did some reading on-line..
found about about:

electric (no good)

single stage (no good)
double stage (what I need)


any tips or advice?
features to look for?

favorite brands?

I plan to head to the library to look through past issues of Consumer Reports before I buy..which I always like to do..


thanks,
Scot


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Sears 2 stage Snow Thrower $729.99 (just the first price I saw, when I did a search, there were others of much higher price).

Divided by the number of uses total before having to have it serviced... Ummm??? 6 times per year? and guessing 3 years between serious (as in $$$) servicing, 

Thus 18 uses yielding a cost per use of: $40.55 PLUS gas and oil!

Add the intangables of your time, effort, numb fingers, blood, sweat and tears, etc....

What does it cost to get the kid across the street to do it for you?

I have two different pairs of fellows (adults!) in my neighborhood that are vieing for my dollars and charge me between $15.00 and $20.00 each time to hand shovel a 40-ft sidewalk, 20-ft front walk, 8-ft x 10-ft front porch, 120-ft x 10-ft driveway, 20-ft backwalk, 10-ft x 15-ft deck (and 50-ft of the driveway is between two houses with no place to toss the snow to the side so it has to be carried, or shoveled multiple times ahead, to one end of the houses to be moved off the drive).


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's mine... works great. Bit pricey but it does the job with a great throw. You can get them cheaper than the retail prices they show on the Toro website.

Whatever you get I recommend 2 essentials...one is a light(unless your driveway is well lit) and the other is an electric start which is handy when the temps are sub zero. Regardless, knowing the storm that's moving through both our areas today a snowblower sure is great.

http://www.toro.com/home/snowthrowers/gastwostage/826LE.html

Gary


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would it need serious (as in $$$) servicing after only 3 years? 
what kind of servicing? 

yes, I know they basically have two motors (main rotor plus the impeller, for a 2-stage thrower) 
so its more complicated than a lawnmower...but still..are they really that expensive to maintain long term? 

I have no neighbor kids to hire.. 
I could hire a plow service.. 
but I dont know that cost..seems much more expensive in the long run.. 
(a quick look on-line shows winter plowing contracts for $200-$300..my driveway is on the larger side for the area..house is set-back from the street further than most..so lets say $300 a year) 

im looking to get 10 years at least out of a snowblower.. 
So thats $70 a year..(not counting gas and maintance or repairs..just the machine..minor repairs I can probably handle myself) 
lets say $100 per year over 10 years including gas/maintance.. 

versus $200-$300 a year for the plowing contract.. 

I have never heard of snow throwers being particularly troublesome machines.. 
yes, they are more complicated than a lawnmower..but they also get less use..


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## Paul Norton (Jan 8, 2008)

At forty something I bought a Craftsman, 24 inch, two-stage, 8 hp snow, electric start, snow blower for $1200 plus tax. The cost should be about 25 percent less in the US.

Three years later I spent $300 to have Sears pick it up, clean the carb, replace the belts and deliver it.

At six years it would have cost $600 pick it up, clean the carb, replace the belts, replace the clutch, and deliver it. No thanks! I sold it and paid a local plow service $250 a year to clean my double driveway.

No more getting up an hour early, freezing my butt off pushing a heavy blower around at 6 AM so we could get out of the driveway. Then have do it again when we arrive home at 7 PM because the city plow had filled it back in. The plow service has it done before I rise, and comes back just after the city plow passes to clean it out before we get home.

No large machine taking up a lot of space in the garage or gas cans to store. As my dad often said, “Nobody ever listens to free advice”. But it is less expensive and far easier to hire a plow service than buy a snow blower.

 
That little brass thing in the back of the left snow bank is a 5 foot lawn light last March.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, 
I have a old Snapper single stage. About 20 years old it just keeps running and running. I just purchased a Ariens two stage for when the city decides to plow in the drive.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I never knew that a 2 stage has two motors, I thought they were one motor with a gearbox with two outputs. I suppose there are both kinds.

My experience with mechanical snow removal equipment is quite limited, I have run one a few times and it was a frustrating experience trying to get the shoot aimed without having to mess with it excessively and getting it to remove snow down to the pavement without throwing rocks and debris all over.

I have seen neighbors...

1) Do an Olympic "hammer throw" to a snowblower (you know, in a total fit, take the handle and spin around and around and let go, tossing the 'blankety-blank' thing across the driveway... I don't know what the world record is, but I doubt if he was a contender)

2) Take a sledge hammer to one, (this guy was just too small to try the Olympic throw),

3) Spend several hours trying to get one started, (this was back when I had good knees and did my own shoveling and I was done before he got it started),

4) Spend several hours trying to get one to restart after getting half of his driveway completed, (another neighbor called the Police on this guy for running the thing at 2:00 AM after he got it started (had to take the muffler off!),

5) Complain about how often he had to have it "repaired", (everything he had, had to be repair often),

6) "Brag" about taking it to the repair shop EVERY year before winter to make sure it works right, ( he often had to have it back to the shop for re-repair after one or two uses),

7) Buy a new one every couple of years (because he just can't live without one) 

I have never seen one operate with anything like the reliability of a lawnmower, and I have always figured that to be because lawnmowers don't have to run in sub-zero temperatures.

Given my limited personal experience and what I have seen others do, I just don't see the value in buying one.


Have you ever seen "Red Green"???? Bolt the outhouse door to the front of your truck and plow the driveway with it! Oh wait! Not "bolt"... use Duct Tape.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd agree you need to balance out the pro's and cons of doy vs pro's. Around here the pro's will do most driveways for between $20 & $40 a job with a contract for the year. I made the mistake of buying a single stage which has a rubber strip on the single impeller to drag itself along but on gravel and grass or even uneven concrete driveways it's a pain and often I find it less physically demanding to simply use a shovel. My next purchase will be a two stage with a headlight. I love the Honda powered products for longevity. I rented somplace from a lady who had a garden and wanted it tilled up. Since part of my rent was odd jobs i dragged her old Honda tiller out and checked the gas tank it was empty. checked the oil. It was full. Could have used changing though. Checked the spark plug it was fine and looked new. Put fresh gas in it. It fired up on the second pull. I've seen photos of the tracked snowblowers by Honda even. Having run a DR trimmer that is NOT self steering I'd opt for a snowblower that has powered steering. Even if I have to spend more and buy larger than I really need. It's just that much less horsing around. 

MY single stage with all it's faults for blowing on surfaces it's not truly made for is still in great shape. I'll pass it on to a friend that will be losing his teenage labor soon and has a much smaller concrete driveway probably next year. 

Chas 

P.S. Who came into work this morning BEFORE it started snowing and now 13 hours later is finally leaving to go home and deal with this foot of snow and now freezing rain.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

For light snows 3 - 5 " single stage are just fine.( I even used it in deeper snow but takes a little longer) I had to replace the scraper bar on the bottom once in 20 years.


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

My toro single stage is now 17 years old. I've replaced the scapper blade once and the impeller rubber once. A couple of spark plugs and new primer button. That's not many parts for 17 years. I have a concrete driveway about 26 feet wide and 70 feet long. I live in S.W. Michigan about 16 miles inland from Lake Michigan. (Lake effect snow!) The rubber impeller gets right down to the concrete if you catch it before you drive on it. The wife says I'm pretty anal about keeping the drive bare. It's only the small 2 cycle engine, I think 3 1/2 horsepower. Really a little small for my drive way at 26 x 70. I doesn't always blow the snow across the whole drive. That's okay if the wind isn't blowing and you can start down the middle and blow both directions. This morning about 3 inches of heavy granular sleet, frozen rain. I had the driveway done in about 15 minutes. I also can pick this up for the back deck, clear the sidewalks and front porch with it, you can't do that with a two stage. 

BUT, I also have a two stage, 4 cycle Huscavarna, 5.5 horsepower for the back driveway. It is a gravel drive and about 200 feet long. I also use it to make paths for the dog and cat so they will go outside once in a while. * No repairs in 4 years. * Change the oil, drain the gas in the spring, fresh gas in the fall and starts first or second pull everytime. If the snow gets deep I use it to clean the front drive too. At this horsepower I have had no need for an electric start. 

I don't think the cold weather is a factor in engine repairs. I use synthetic oil in the engine of the bigger blower. The front auger and impeller each have shear pins to save the drive gears/shafts if you do something like suck up the dog leash. I know that from experience. 

If you get as much snow as pictured by Paul I would go with the two stage. They do chew thought the plow piles at the end of the drive!!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

With all the folks on health kicks just keep on doing by hand and look at all the good exercise you get plus staying in shape. Also you do not have to worry about something else to store and buy gas for. Later RJD


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks everyone! 
good stuff..keep 'em coming!  

my driveway is 30 X 65 feet.. 
but thats 3-lanes..I only clear two in the winter.. 
so I actually shovel about 20 X 65.. 

JAmarti, 
thats very close to your driveway size! 
but I dont think I could get away with a single-stage.. 
might work fine for 6" and under..but shoveling that much isnt a big deal, because I can push the show all the way across.. 
its the 1-foot and bigger snows that are the problem.. 
We get probably five to eight decent 6"-18" snowfalls every winter.. 
so im pretty sure I would want to go with the 2-stage.. 
although a single stage would be nice for the deck too...hmmm.. 

well..im not going to buy two!  
so the deck will just have to fend for itself.. 

thanks, 
Scot


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm retired, if I'm snowed in I just stay home. IF I want to get out the 4wd on my F150 usually does the job.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I am also retired and keep enough food on hand to last a couple of weeks (or more if I really had to) so I'd agree with you and do the same, but the city has an ordinance that the sidewalk "must be cleared within 48 hours of the beginning of a snow storm" or the city will do it and add the cost to the property tax bill... and city workers are NOT "cheap" (a new snowblower would be cheaper!).

The "48-hours" bit is new this year because there are so many abandoned or unoccupied flood damaged houses in so much of the city that they are trying to be lenient. BUT the 48-hours does not reset of start-over if a second storm comes along within 48 hours of the first one.

The "cleared" definition also changed due to the severity of the ice storms last year... I spent many hours last year breaking up 3 to 6 inches of ice on my sidewalk after five different ice storm. Now, the sidewalk must be passable by a "grandmother"... but it was specifically stated that it is not YOUR grandmother; it is the grandmother of the inspector that comes to check on conplaints and nobody knows which inspector will be sent! Ice is allowed to be on the walk as long as there is some grit on it to make it non-slippery.

Downtown sidewalks will actually be inspected, but residential areas will be inspected only if they receive a complaint.

And I know of no snowblower that would work on the ice we had last year

.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I bought mine after the snow season was over. 30 per cent off!! 

So, I have a 8 horse 2 stage for approx. $500.00 with electric start!! 

Compared to a plow service, I can do my side walks, and go through gates to get to my shed. Shoveling all I have would be at least $50 a storm. Plow service would be $30 for just my driveway. 

Plus, I do not mind doing the snow removal myself.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Ottawa normally does not receive a lot of snow, winter is just bitterly cold. But when it does snow, it may snow a good little bit and a half dozen 25 cm (10 inches) or more snowfalls per year are not uncommon. Paul's pic taken last winter gives a good idea of what a snowy Ottawa winter will look like when the snow never melts but just accumulates. Most storms pass south of us ie right through upstate New York where Scot lives and they get lots more snow than the Ottawa Valley.

My driveway is on a grade and is long ... over 100 feet ... so I have a contract with a local farmer to blow it out. He comes on average about 10 times over the course of the winter (16 times in last year's snow!). I would guess that Scot's estimate of 5-8 snowplows per season is way too low for snowbelt country and that perhaps 20 would be a better guess. 

In that scenario, for a 65 foot driveway, the benefit would likely swing toward blowing it out yourself. But that depends on the value you place on staying in bed as opposed to being out blowing snow at 530 am when it is -20 outside. My advice would be a 2 stage blower with electric start, a headlight, and (after you have snow blown in your face) you will add a snow shield of some sort. I personally would not buy a Sears but would lean toward a Toro, Husquana or one of the farm equipment suppliers but that is simply my own prejudice.

There is no reason why a tuned up snowblower should give trouble especially with an electric start. Most of the folks I see with snowblower problems leave their machine outside under a tarp year round ... and never add any stabilizer to the gas ... or run the gas from the carb at the end of a season ... or clean/regap plugs etc etc. 

Regards ... Doug


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Scot 


From experience (across the lake from you) if you buy the biggest most powerful snowblower you can afford, there will still be days when you wish you had gone bigger. So go for something substantial and you won't constantly wish you were paying someone to do it for you. I actually enjoy running my old-school 10 horse Tecumseh-powered beast (27 inch - two-stage). Kind of a Tim the Tool Man thing. 

Make sure you put chains on the tires. Store it in a nice dry place and you should have few maintenance issues.




Cheers...


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Careful! 

My dad *hated* winter. 

One year he bought a snowblower. 

The first big snow we had, he snowblowed the driveway. The turnaround. The sidewalk. The sidewalk around back that we never used. The neighbor's sidewalk. The neighbor's driveway. The sidewalk down to..... 

"Have fun?" 

"Na. Hate winter."


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have access to a JD 317 with a snow thower that a friend wants me to sell for him.....


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got a Troy 8HP tiller that's outfitted with an adjustable plow blade about 30 inches wide. I bought it 2nd hand about 15 years ago. It came with tire chains! Put a new motor in it a couple of years ago after I blew the old one up (Tecumseh -- no loss!) It goes a great job as long as I'm plowing less than 8 inches at a pass. Our township has a 24 hour limit on the sidewalk plowing. Since we live in suburbia, there's no actual requirement to even have a sidewalk. If they ever give me any crap about being late with the plowing the sidewalk is going to get jackhammered and replaced with grass. (That'll teach them to mess with a crumudgeon!) 

My dad had a Sears snowblower that was new in 1980-something and still works today with minimal fussing. Don't make things like they used to.


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys are making me cold, just looking at the pictures and reading the accounts... 

When I was a kid, growing up on the shores of Lake Michigan (north of Chicago), I was the primary shoveler of the 100'+ driveway. 

Dad would wake my up ealry enough to clear the drive so he could leave for work at 6:00 am. 

Shortly after he'd leave, the town's street plow would come by, and since our driveway was the only one cleared by then, invariably his plow would dump/eject the buildup into the feshly found void... 

[email protected]@rd... 

Clear it again... 

And then some time during the day, while I was off at school, the town's sidewalk plow would come through and dump his excess as he passed through the open section of our driveway which was 25' from the streeet... 

Oh, and a snowblower??? Fat chance. I was lucky to get the old man to buy an aluminum shovel one year. You know, the kind that are about 3' wide, and look like a quarter section of pipe?? I still have the old steel coal shovel that was my usual weapon (and the bane of my existence)... 

Now, we don't shovel nuthin' we didn't order...


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Scott, if one of the neighbors is running his, why not ask if you can take the helm for a few feet. It'd try both kinds. 

There is a weight penalty. At first, my old T*r* single stage seemed small. However, later I had to put the big 2 stage one into our van, to get it serviced. Man, that was really heavy.....like lifting a VW. I still have the single. ( I can hang the small one on a wall peg in the summer.) 

cheers


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys! 

I went out today and took a look at some.. 
went to Sears, Home Depot and Lowes.. 
All were about 75% sold out, (not surprising for the day after the first big snow) 
but said they had more on the way.. 

Lowes had a nice Toro single-stage for $470 that I looked at.. 
I considered it...but I wouldnt want to get a big blizzard (2' in one storm is not uncommon) 
and then have a machine that cant handle the job just when I need it most! 
So I have to go with the dual-stage..no question.. 
and yeah, we get pretty major thick hills of snow blocking the end of the drive when the big town plows come by.. 
a single-stage wouldnt handle those well..they all say "for 8" and under"... 

Home Depot had a nice big Arens for $800..but that might even be more than I want.. 
Im thinking of staying in the $700 range..I definately want a good "name brand" though.. 
Home Depot sells "Yard Machines" brand..looks low-end quality to me. 

So I didnt get one today..but im not in a major hurry.. 
we have another storm coming tomorrow, but only 2"-4" inches forecast..thats not a big deal.. 

speaking of weight and transportability.. 
both Lowes and HD will rent one of their trucks/trailers for $20 to get the thing home.. 
a dual-stage cant be lifted into my pickup..even by two people.. 
so im considering building some kind of ramp..some googling brought up some "ramp kits"..with hardware, 
you just add on the lumber: 

http://www.rd.com/familyhandyman/content/17607/ 

something like that would be useful to have..just for future needs.. 

Scot


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

*BEST $600 I EVER SPENT! *







...








Here's what things looked like off our back porch this morning







- looking in the back yard towards the railroad:












- And our driveway:












My snowblower here is a Craftsman 2-stage, 4-HP, track-drive model:








As you can tell by the rust around the gas tank support bracket, this is *not *a new machine







- I bought
it new something like 15 ~ 20 years ago, when my parents put in the driveway (didn't even want to 
THINK about hand-shoveling an area that large!







).

Although under the Sears "Craftsman" label, I believe this machine was actually made by Toro for Sears - 
I've seen a mechanically identical snowblower under the "Toro" brand name, only difference is that 
it was painted red instead of gray!









It will clear a 20" wide path; at the time I bought it, it was the smallest track-drive, 2-stage model available. 
The size limitation was not determined by price, but what was the heaviest machine 2 people (me & my father)
could safely carry up & down our cellar stairs. 


Even at that, we built a "shelf" over the cellar stairway with a removable ramp towards the doorway so that it 
only has to be lugged in or out of the cellar at the start & end of the winter season. (The lawnmower sits 
on the shelf during the warmer months).


It has 6 forward & 2 reverse speeds for the track drive, works well on snow such as we had in this storm (fluffy 
& dry powder). It is not as good in heavy, wet snow







- the output chute tends to clog on slushy snow, 
requiring me to shut the engine down to clear it.







(There is a rather gory graphic







on the output chute 
showing what could happen if you were to stick your fingers down there with the engine still running - the
output impeller (separate from the "auger" - that's why it's called a 2-stage machine) - runs 
continuosly . 2 large handles independently control the track drive & auger clutches.


I've done all maintenance on the machine so far myself







- oil changes every year, 1 new spark plug so far, some
minor tweaks on the carburator mixture adjustments one year when it was running a bit rough. Replaced very few 
parts so far other than occaisonal shear bolts (the mechanical equivalents of "fuses"!







) which protect the 
auger drivetrain gearbox from damage should the machine ingest an occasional rock or especially hard chunk of ice. 
We may eventually put in a backyard shed - which might prompt me to get a bigger, more powerful machine to
deal with the heavy wet stuff!







Tom


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

When I lived in Pennsylvania I had a Sears with a 10HP Tec. 2 stage. Had chains on it . Very heavy, used a pr of 8 ft 2 x 10's and drove it up into the back of the truck. Never lacked for power, always started on the 1st or 2nd pull. But I don't miss that snow being blown back in your face on a windy day!


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Scot, my cousin, who lives in East Amhest, N.Y. (that's about 60 miles? west of you) has a guy who plows out the driveway right after the snow. Since my cousin is 69, that's the best idea. He also has a natural gas powered generator, which kicks in if the power goes out, as happened two years ago in Buffalo. They were without electricity for five days, their basement sump pump didn't work and everything down there got flooded and ruined (no trains--he's not into hobbies, just playing the stock market). 

Speaking of snow blowers, allow me to tell you my story. 

Back around 1960 or so when personal snow blowers first came on the market, I begged my folks to stake me to one, which I swore to pay off by cleaning everyone's walk. Mind you, we lived on the corner of a city street (Best and Meyers, in East Buffalo), so it was pretty tight quarters. Plus my across the street neighbor's dining room windows--a huge wall of indivual panes--faced the street. Anyway, at the first snowfall, I fired up my snowblower and proceeded to clear our sidewalk, blowing snow and ice chunks about 30 feet, across the street and against my neighbor's wall. Hearing the noise, which must have sounded like artillery inside their dining room, he came rushing out and yelled, "What the **** are you doing?" 
"Why, cleaning the sidewalk, Dr Suluecki." Suffice to say, he was not amused, especially when he saw his house, which looked like a gingerbread cottage, except covered with snow and not cake frosting. 

Snow blower never worked very well, finally refused to start when the fuel line got clogged up, so I declared Chapter 7 and sold it for about 25 cents on the dollar. 

Several years later I moved to LA.


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Scot,
I have just a little more driveway than you're talking about, and have never regretted the Troy-Built 2-stage thrower I bought about 6 years ago. I'll admit, I haven't done the maintenance that I should, I've only changed the oil once or twice, but I treat the gas every spring and winter. It has electric and manual starting, but it starts the first or second pull, even the first use of the season, so I don't usually bother plugging it in to use the electric starter.
Tom(Torby) has a valid point. When I bought mine, I started driving it up the ramp into the bed of the 4wd to do my parents', sister's and aunt's house - but I can do them all in an hour or so, and they don't have to worry about it. I'm not saying I enjoy doing it, but rather enjoy _being_ _able_ to do it.
Like others have said, don't undersize it. My wife wanted me to get something small, so she could use it, but I figure that's only going to happen if I'm dead or we get divorced. I'd rather get it done faster. She can buy a new one if her plans work out.









Edit: I tried for two years waiting for clearance sales, but at least in my neck of the woods, they were all gone before they went to clearance. It just meant I ended up shoveling for two extra years...


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

Stay away from HD/Lowes! They contract for cheaper versions of the brands they sell. The Ariens/Toro/JD/whatever you get there will not be the same quality you would find elsewhere. My advice would be to find a reputable local power equipment dealer and talk to them. Mine has been in business forever and offers free pickup/delivery on everything they sell. They also guarantee the machine if they service it annually. (If it breaks, I pay only for parts. No labor, no pickup/delivery, etc.) You may pay slightly more, but the long-term benefits are worth it.


I've tried to go cheap in the past, and I always end up back at my dealer trading it in for what I should've bought in the first place. (One of the brands he sells is Ariens, and you should hear him rant about fixing the machines people buy at HD.)


BTW, I live in New England and have an 800-foot driveway. I have a 7.5-foot Fisher on the pickup and one of these:
http://www.simplicitymfg.com/products/snowthrowers/signature_pro_commercial_duty_dual-stage/


And it's been snowing nonstop here since Friday noon. 


(BTW, never heard of a two-stage with two motors. All the ones I've ever used have had two CLUTCHES, but one engine.)


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo, 

When the city tells you that you haft to clean there city walks or get a fine, go out & clean the walk an send them a bill for your labor.. See how long the ordinance lasts.. 

BulletBob


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mack505 on 12/21/2008 7:35 AM 
Scott, 

Stay away from HD/Lowes! They contract for cheaper versions of the brands they sell. The Ariens/Toro/JD/whatever you get there will not be the same quality you would find elsewhere. 


James, 
are you sure that is true? 
I am not saying you are wrong..I honestly dont know.. 
but I could see that being an "urban legend" started by the anti-big box crowd.. 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070927084452AAb5753 


yahoo answers is hardly conclusive I know..but still, it casts some doubt on the story.. 

and an independent dealer would be happy to believe and pass along that story! 

HD carries Ariens..from what I have read one of the more respected brands.. 
does HD really have a different Ariens model than an "independent" dealer? 
maybe..but maybe not...anyone know for certain? not just "I heard its true"? 

(BTW, never heard of a two-stage with two motors. All the ones I've ever used have had two CLUTCHES, but one engine.) 


that was my mistake..I assumed two motors, one for the main rotor and one the impeller..I was wrong.. 

thanks, 
Scot


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't make things like they used to.


They do. You just have to look for them.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Road Foreman on 12/21/2008 9:41 AM
Semper Vaporo, 

When the city tells you that you haft to clean there city walks or get a fine, go out & clean the walk an send them a bill for your labor.. See how long the ordinance lasts.. 

BulletBob


People have tried that. Doesn't work. The Law eventually gets involved and the fines and lawyer and court fees and other bills greatly exceed any semblance of "I was standing up for a principle". It is just like the homeowner having to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street in front of their property, even though that piece of property actually belongs to the city. Many folk have said that since they cannot alter that property and don't really OWN it, then they don't have to maintain it... but the courts have upheld the city's right to bill you if they have to maintain it... or remove something that is there that city, county, state or federal ordinance prohibits, such concrete abutments around a culvert under a driveway (damages snow plows) or brick mailbox posts (deadly traffic hazard).


The law has little to do with right and wrong, it is a means of providing order to society.

Like Red Green says, "It may not be smart nor correct, but it is one of the things that makes us what we are."


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 12/21/2008 11:24 AM
Don't make things like they used to.


They do. You just have to look for them.


And you pay a whole lot more for them, too.


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo, 

Do not fight with them, just clean the walk & send them a bill.. When they refuse to pay, you take them to small claims court.. 

BulletBob


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Road Foreman on 12/21/2008 5:12 PM
Semper Vaporo, 

Do not fight with them, just clean the walk & send them a bill.. When they refuse to pay, you take them to small claims court.. 

BulletBob


Like I said... folk have tried that and the court says "Go away, after paying the court costs, of course."


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

My wife and I had some dealings with New York State recently.. 
fun with DMV in Albany.. 

We learned you cant think of government as human, or reasonable, or logical, or intelligent.. 
its a mindless machine that can not be reasoned with.. 
there might be some actual humans in there somewhere, but they are powerless to change the machine.. 

the old saying "you cant fight city hall" is really true.. 
its much easier not to try..just for the sake of your own sanity.. 

speaking of New York State, (and going off-tangent here..but thats ok..) 
Deb and I might be considering a new state soon..if I get laid off this spring, we will probably be skipping town.. 

Are there actually any states out there that are reasonably well-run? 
with actual humans in charge who are maybe somewhat logical and rational? 
New York state is an absolute disaster..the machine is out of control.. 
here is how it thinks: 

"hmmm..less people are using the NY thruway because we raised the tolls so much.. 
thats means we are getting less toll revenue..how should we fix this problem?? 
of course..we have to raise the thruway tolls even more to make up for lost tolls that came about because we raised tolls the first time" 

"People and business are fleeing the state because of our insane and inane taxes.. 
that means we are bringing in less and less money all the time.. 
how to solve this problem?? 
obviously we need to raise taxes and create lots of new taxes.. 
to bring in more money because we are losing money because we raised taxes so much.. 
raising taxes THIS time will be a much better idea than raising taxes last time..which history shows 
was a bad idea..but this time im sure it will work just fine.." 

so..where should we move? 
any suggestions? 

Scot


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

If you don't mind the heat to bad, pluse no snow in the southern part, try Alabama. 
No taxes on SS, Cevil Service ret., arm forces ret., or hardly anyother retirement. 
If over age 65 and make less than 25,000 a year than only 25.00 a year on property 
taxes, no matter what the value of your property is. We have open not closed public 
town meeting and can get things change if enought people voice against it. Payroll 
are not that bad either. We do have 8% taxes on anything one buys but there are 
no taxes on prescription drugs. Check us out you may like it here. 

Owner of K&K the road to nowhere


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,

I may not have been clear in my statement. HD/Lowes does not sell the same models of Ariens/Toro/JD/etc as you will find elsewhere. They have their own versions. This may be in part to avoid the 'if you can find it cheaper elsewhere. . .' guarantee, but I also believe they are a lower quality than you will find at a professional grade shop.

With that said, if you can find the exact same model it will be of equal quality.


For an expensive and complex item like a snowblower, I'd strongly avdise you to find a good dealer who will be able to supply parts and service after the sale. If you buy from the big box guys, who's gonna fix it for you?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mack505 on 12/21/2008 8:06 PM Scot, I may not have been clear in my statement. HD/Lowes does not sell the same models of Ariens/Toro/JD/etc as you will find elsewhere. They have their own versions. This may be in part to avoid the 'if you can find it cheaper elsewhere. . .' guarantee, but I also believe they are a lower quality than you will find at a professional grade shop.

James, 
no, you were perfectly clear.. but I really think that is simply not true..



I went out again and shopped for snowblowers again today.. most places nearly sold-out, so selection is lacking.. 
but I picked up a brochure from Lowes about the snowblowers they sell, listing Troy-Bilt, John Deere and "Yard Machines" brand.. 
(the brochure is from Lowes themselves, not a snowblower manufacturer brochure) 

Then I went to a local "independent" company that sells John Deere and Troy-Bilt.. picked up an actual Troy-Bilt brochure there, 
listing the models they sell at the independent dealer.. The machines in the actual Troy-Bilt brochure are identical to those in the Lowes brochure.. 
exact same model numbers.. 
and Lowes does not list any machine *not* in the Troy-Bilt brochure..



sorry..but I think its a myth that HD/Lowes have different versions..



perhaps the confusion comes from Model numbers.. for example, Lowes has *their own* model number for all the Troy-Bilt machines.. 
Lowes has number 189206, which is Troy-Bilt model "Storm 2620".. The independant dealer doesnt use "189206" because that is the Lowes-specific number..
they simply use the Troy-Bilt model number (Storm 2620) but they are identical models...
Lowes just also uses their own number..probably because they give their own product number to everything they sell.. 
maybe thats why people think Lowes/HD sell different versions? 
next time I am at Home Depot, I will write down the model numbers there.. 

thanks, 
Scot


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,
I have an Ariens with a Briggs and Stratton 8 Hp engine that I bought back in mid 70’s when I lived in Milwaukee and then Rochester, Michigan. I used it a lot when I lived there, but only use it a few times a year here in Virginia. But when we get a lot of snow it is heavy, so it comes in real handy. I get to see a lot of neighbors then also







. In the 30 years I have had it, it has been in the shop for repairs twice, once to replace the carburetor when I left fuel sit for a long time and for once replacement of the electric start and to replace sheared cotter pins. Routine maintenance is changing the oil and the plug and greasing it. This thing will attack hard packed snow from snow plows and knock it down. Parts for it are still available. Here are some thoughts on what to look for:
8hp (at least)
Dual stage
Locking hubs (for when you really have to get nasty)
Electric start
Shear pins on the auger (for when you find where the paper boy threw the Sunday paper)
Capability to attach drift cutters (bars that extend up over the hood to cut snow drifts)
Replaceable skids on the bottom of the auger shroud (the part that scrapes the pavement)

Hope this helps

Mike


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks everyone! 

I think I have narrowed it down to a Troy-Bilt from a local "independent" dealer.. 

I agree to avoid HD/Lowes if possible..because of support.. 
if you have problems, they can do nothing for you! 
and I would tend to not trust the expertise of the 17 year old clerks who assemble them.. 

I have been doing a ton of reading on-line tonight about Tecumseh versus Briggs & Stratton engines.. 
(I had never even *heard* of Tecumseh engines until a few days ago!) 

It seems Tecumseh has cornered the snowblower market for decades..until just this year. 
Right about now, Tecumseh is getting out of the small engine market..leading to concerns about parts.. 
and it seems B&S will be gaining a lot of the share in the future.. 
everyone agrees B&S makes good engines.. 
Tecumseh engines have a more spotty reputation.. 
(Although many have complained the Briggs hasnt made a good "cold weather" engine..) 

but I have found, like anything else, it comes down to a "Ford vs. Chevy" thing.. 
no matter what, you will find people who say "Tecumseh is junk..always has been" 
"Tecumseh is great..I have 30 year old Tecumseh engines that still run like a champ" 
"All Craftsman is junk" 
"Craftsman quality is great..love it" 
I even found a person complaining about Ariens quality..while nearly everyone else raves about Ariens.. 

I once knew a person who was telling everyone "The Honda Accord is the biggest piece of crap on the road..I hate Hondas and will never buy another one as long as I live"..because HE personally had a bad experience with ONE Honda Accord.. 
meanwhile the Honda Accord is actually about the most highly rated car of all time..for good reason.. 

So I have learned that reading internet reviews on anything is pretty much pointless.. 
and only the people with bad experiences complain on the internet.. 
the 90% of people with good experiences have no reason to talk about it..so they say nothing.. 
so what you read on-line is probably way out of line with reality.. 

I was considering dropping anything with a Tecumseh engine from consideration, and only going for the B&S.. 
but I now think thats probably unnecessary.. 
people have been getting plenty of years of great service from the Tecumseh-powered machines..for decades now.. 
as with anything, it all comes down to proper care! 
ANY engine will die quickly if you dont take proper care of it.. 

So for now my top contender is: 

http://www.troybilt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_14102_16802_55007_-1 

$600 at a local John Deere/Troy-Bilt dealer.. 
its a discontinued model, might be a 2007 model..still has the Tecumseh engine.. 
(I read some future Troy-Bilts might be going with chinese engines after Tecumseh stops production..) 

Troy-Bilt are actually built by a company called MTD..who also builds snowblowers for Craftsman, Bolan, Cub Cadet, and others.. 

Scot


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,
I’m not aware of any big issues with Tecumseh engines. They have made a whole lot of them. Regarding cold weather operations; that is why you want an electric start. Also another trick is to put a trouble light on the engine head 30 minutes before you are going to use it. During the period my electric start was not working, pull starting the engine worked after the third or fourth pull. Using fresh gas and keeping the fuel line clear is also a good habit. Don’t let the machine sit during the summer with gas in it unless you start it once in awhile. A stabilizer might also work. And finally check the tire pressure before doing any heavy snowplowing. If the tires are real low and you run into a patch of heavy stuff, the blower may turn the wheels and pop the seal. The valve stems doesn’t react well to that kind of force.
Have fun with the machine.
Mike


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike..
good tip about the shop light to warm the engine!
I will remember that..


Well im not going with the Troy-Bilt "Storm 5024" afterall..
The specs on-line say it has the Tecumseh engine..

but I just went over, intending to buy one, (they didnt have that model in that shop,
but said they could get one from another shop in their chain..(they have like 5 stores locally)

but I asked about the engine, to make sure it was the Tecumseh..it isnt..








They guy said "its a new engine Troy-Bilt makes themselves"..
turns out its the Chinese "Honda clone"..


not interested..









So im just going to look for one with a Briggs & Stratton engine..

that is clearly the best way to go, now that Tecumseh is closing up shop..

so the quest continues! 


Scot


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

Some things that I have noticed in the past ten years since i bought mine are:

The impeller housing is about 50% bigger than it used to be. This minimizes clogging and that dangerous act of having to clear the impeller.

A pole to clear the impeller (good safety prop)

Serrated auger. This one is new but it seems logical if you get hard packed snow. Seems like the serrations would chew through it easier.

All that aside, I would highly recommend, if you can afford it, going with a minimum of an 8 HP (or whatever the cc equivalent is) 2 stage machine. My Craftsman was a 5 HP and would bog down in wet heavy snow over six inches deep, even in first gear. My Craftsman had a B&S in it and I abused it mercilessly and it managed to last me for nine Michigan winters. It has sadly, bought the farm, so I'm also in the market for a new one. You definately get service through Sears. You can purchase an extended warranty through them which includes on-site repairs as well as annual maintenance for the first three years. I think it cost me an extra 99 bucks back in 1999. Either way you go, good luck.

Oh, and when I worked for Home Depot back in 2000/2001, we had a local certified small engine repair place that handled all of the warranty work on all power equipment we sold. And for some reason, I highly doubt that major manufacturers of power equipment would let their good names be soiled by providing a lower quality version of what they would normally sell at smaller "specialty" stores. In 2001, when HD first brought in John Deere, our store manager nearly wet himself at an employee meeting when he announced it, he was so pleased. He was sure it would give us market share over Lowe's, who had just scored a contract with Cub Cadet.

Mark


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark,
I’m not so sure about the big box guys not putting pressure on manufacturers. A few years back, I did some bathroom remodeling. After looking around, I settled on Kohler faucets. I checked their web site for part numbers. When I went to Home Depot, the numbers were close but not quite the same. I went to Fergesons (large plumbing supply chain). The people there indicated that the faucets supplied to Home Depot had plastic components in place of some brass components. I later independently confirmed the HD units had plastic components. That doesn’t necessarily mean they were inferior, or HD is alone in specifying unique designs, (or that Briggs and Stratton does it) but in this case, the outward appearances were the same, but the internals were different. 
Mike


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

Best of luck with whatever you choose. The two-stage is definitely the way to go. I've no experience with the Troy-Bilt, but they have a decent reputation.

As for Tecumseh vs B&S, I'd not heard Tecumseh was bailing out of the business. Very interesting. I've owned both with OK results. My current unit is a B&S 'Snow King' 10.5 hp, and it seems to have some nice cold weather features. They have moved the throttle control to the engine to reduce icing issues, and the whole carb is enclosed in a warming box. It starts on the second pull most times, but I usually use the electric start. All of the controls are large enough to run with a gloved hand. It has a big muffler, too, so it won't deafen me.


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Scott, You should have had enough snow to check out your new snow blower. You did get one didn't you? And the winner was......


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jamarti on 01/11/2009 7:03 PM
Well Scott, You should have had enough snow to check out your new snow blower. You did get one didn't you? And the winner was...... 


I actually _don't_ have one yet!

after extensive education, I am now looking at used machines only.
I have discovered it is probably possible to buy a 20 to 40 year old machine for $100 to $200 that will be of much higher quality than a brand new $600 machine.. 


expect a full report soon! 


Scot


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

5am yesterday I was awoken by a weird yammering whine... I THOUGHT maybe it was an aquarium power head going bad...nope. Some idiot was out there in the dark using a LEAF BLOWER to remove 2" of fresh fluffy snow. Took him about 90 minutes to do what he could have pushed off in about 45. So much for sleeping before I had to be at work. 

If you get Troy-Bilt DON"T let them finance it.... You'll pay about $1 on the principle every month, the rest will be interest" and "fees". Also DON'T let it sit with gas in it for more than about 3 weeks, especially if you are one of these people who thinks "gas is gas" and buys the off brand crap. Letting it run till it's out of gas (with a little Marvel Mystery Oil, or Lucas Upper Cylinder Lube in it) is still MUCH cheaper than a carb kit and a tune-up


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well for me I kept shovelling snow until Saturday night. We had that ice storm come thru Wednesday that coated everything and since then we've not had the usual "thaw cycle" that goes along with Western NY weather. Managed to stay ahead of teh snow though that has fallen siince. Spent a good share of Friday night shovelling and woke up Saturday morning to 4 more inches. I had to be someplace so no shovelling for me. Wife graciously spent a few hours pushing more of the snow off the driveway but Saturday it just plain kept snowing. By the time I'd gotten home about 3pm it was back up to 6 inches deep again. We went to a birthday party and I shovelled the walk where we went. In the 2 hours we were there you could not tell I'd shovelled at all. I went home and we were supposed to go back out but I called off and spent the evening in the garage (tin siding and roof) with the kerosene heater and a propane heater cranked working on tthe single stage Craftsman I've had for 10 years. 2 years ago the muffler bolts came loose and they had done so again. As I said before it's also tough to use on my gravel and grass driveway if the ground isn't frozen. I got teh muffler bolted back up with new lock washers and the shroud put back in place and promptly dropped it off the table saw (sigh). Minor damage easily repaired and filled the tank up and tested her out for about 20 minutes. Shut things down in the garage and went in to bed. Woke up Sunday morning to another 6 inches or so and spent the newt 2 hours blowing snow as high as I could in places where I'd shovelled the banks too high. Since then we've recieved about another 2 inches locally. had an offer from a friend to trade my single stage for his dual stage since he has an ATV with a blade and a smaller concrete driveway. I may take him up on that. 

Craig's list Scot may be a good place to look for good used. Around here the estate auctions are way overpriced. 

Chas


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'd sell you my Crafstman, but the snow falling on my driveway right now tells me that may not be the smartest decision I'll have made. So, sorry 'bout that. I will vouch for Craftsman in this case. I've had it since I was in Rochester, and it was more than up to the snows there--even bucking the piles left by the village plows. Two-stage, electric start, 22" auger, pneumatic tires, 6-speed, and all that jazz. 

As for other states to move to, I can heartily recommend CO. The DMV is actually somewhat efficient, and property taxes are 1/4 what they are in NYS. The technology job market seems fairly strong, too, though I can't vouch for that personally. And, your snowblower will still get a good workout every year. Leave the dehumidifier back east. Yeah, it means you'll have to buy distilled water for the live steamers, but it's okay. 

Later, 

K


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

More reminiscence than anything useful, but. . .

When I was a teenager I cleared snow for my elderly neighbor using her elderly snowblower. It was an old Ariens, repainted red, with manual start only. It usually took about 30 pulls to start, but once it was going nothing could stop it. There was a manual clutch on the front of the motor which engaged the augers. Once it was in they spun constantly. It wouldn't move without the augers spinning. They also stuck halfway out the front of the machine.


The main drive clutch was not a modern dead-man style; rather you had to squeeze the clutch to make it stop. 



NOTHING stopped that machine. Ice, snowbanks, mailboxes, fences. . .if I pointed it west, it might've stopped when it hit the Pacific Ocean. Maybe.

It was a dangerous killer of a machine, and I wish I had it today.







They truly don't make 'em like they used to.


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run an 8 horse, two stage, hydro drive (Automatic), electric start (110 V) Honda for about ten years now.
The best one I have ever owned! Period!

Out lasted anything Sears ever made.
It has the aluminum safety bolts on the serrated augers. (one each side.) That's good, if you pick up a rock or stick when you are on rough terrain, the bolt shears, saving the rest of the machine. 

Throws dry snow 30 feet and wet snow 20 feet.


But if it gets real deep, I'll get out the old bobcat and really do some damage!










jb


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

Seems as though most manufacturers list their snowblowers by cc rather than horsepower. Anyone know of a quick conversion system that helps us old hounds understand? I used to own a 5hp Craftsman, but after 510 years, it finally bit the dust. Now I'm looking to replace it with something in the 8hp two stage range.

Mark


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

Huh, just noticed that I have owned my last snowblower for 510 years. I guess i got my money's worth out of it. Anyway, I've looked all over the internet and have found that calculating HP is contingent on many factors but I did find a webpage where the author gives an approximation of conversion from cc to HP.

Hope this helps anyone who might be looking.

Mark

http://movingsnow.com/2008/09/cc-gross-torque-horsepower-whats-the-difference/


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe I'm wrong, but, isn't TORQUE what you're looking for, not HP? For this application, an engine that makes a huge HP number at some rediculously high RPM would probably less useful than a long stroke low rev engine with a really wide torque band..Except I'm not sure that they MAKE them any more. (That's why many of today's "performance" cars sound like a chainsaw, not a muscle car)


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## jamarti (Jan 2, 2008)

I was puzzled by the comments about Tecumseh not making small engines anymore. I visited their website and it doesn't say anything about discontinuing manufacturing small engines. Is this true or a rumor started by other small engine manufactures?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jamarti on 01/13/2009 6:17 PM
I was puzzled by the comments about Tecumseh not making small engines anymore. I visited their website and it doesn't say anything about discontinuing manufacturing small engines. Is this true or a rumor started by other small engine manufactures? 
I believe if you go back and reread the reply where that comment was made, it said they were getting out of supplying the snow blower market.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, how about this one?



















Plus..it's all electric drive! 
This one is station at the tunnel portal to the backside of the Jungfraujoch and Aletsch glacier.
Seriously, though, I spent many years using two stage Ariens, 8hp....simple to maintain and lots of parts around for them.

Keith


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Its funny that two of you have mentioned old Ariens machines in the last few days!
I actually read those posts AFTER I bought my _very old _Ariens!









photos, and a full report on everything I have learned, coming soon!


Coincidentally, im going to turn 40 next month..
here is the hip 1969 suburbanite with his Ariens Sno-Thro..












Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok..here is the machine I ended up with after all my research!
a 1972 Ariens Sno-thro!










yes, im building a webpage about my snowblower!








(its what I do..I just cant resist)
webpage coming soon..in progress..

meanwhile here is the long and rambling story of how I ended up with such an ancient snowblower..
im very happy with it! 
works great!

here is an excerpt from the webpage:

----------------------------

Page 2. 

Ok, the story.. 
I moved the story to this seperate page, because its rather long and rambling!








I originally had this all on the one webpage, but then realised people wont want to scroll 
down past all this just to get to the goods..(the info about the 1972 Ariens!) 
so I moved this all over here to a seperate page, so people can read it..ONCE!








If they wish to, then they can just skip over it next time they visit the main page.. 

So..the story of how I ending up with an old snowblower, 
when I started out looking at NEW ones!... 


My wife and I bought our first house in 2006. For the last two winters I shoveled.. 
a bigger snowfall could take 2 hours to clear by hand! and I would sometimes have twinges 
in my back muscles for days after. (im not getting any younger!) 

We did get some help from a friendly neighbor, who would help plow us out after the bigger storms, and while I greatly appreciate that help, I felt I still really needed a snow blower for 
my own use. I want to be "self reliant" and be able to clear the driveway when needed. 

So in November 2008 I started looking at Snow Blowers. 
when I started, I knew _very_ little about them.. So I hit the internet..google is my friend. 
I also went out and looked at LOTS of machines! 
Two Home Depots, Three Lowes, and about five or six local "independant dealers" 
(I wont even consider Walmart.) 

I quickly learned that due to my native snow fall amounts, I definately want a 2-stage machine..I never even looked at single stage machines. 

About the terms "snow blower" and "snow thrower".. 
they basically mean the same thing..but generally "snow blower" means the smaller single-stage machines, and "snow thrower" refers to the larger 2-stage machines.. 
although these terms are not etched in stone, they are not "official", and generally the 
generic term "snow blower" is used to describe them all. 

think of it as.. "a snow blower (single stage) _blows_ small amounts of snow off your driveway, and is good for smaller snowfalls...but a snow _thrower _(2-stage) is more powerful and _throws_ large amounts of snow!" 

If you want to be technical, you can use the terms that way..but my entire life I have only ever 
heard people say "snow blower" to describe any and all machines, both single stage and 
2-stage..its simply used in the generic sense..so thats how im going to continue to use it..rather than use "blower" and "thrower" to distingiush beween single stage and 2-stage, 
its simply easier to just _say_ single stage and 2-stage! that way people know what 
you are talking about.. 

So I went out shopping for a 2-stage snowblower!









Here are some things I learned about modern snowblowers. 

1. For decades, Tecumseh has been the primary engine supplier for the majority of 
snowblowers, probably the last 40 years at least and a major percentage of the market. 
They are considered fine engines, although I got the sense from lots of internet reading that 
in general, most people consider Briggs and Stratton to be a slightly higher quality engine, although Briggs has never been a major player in the snowblower field. 

I read an interesting viewpoint a few times, along the lines of: 
"If its for winter, get a Tecumseh engine, if its for summer, get a Briggs." 

2. Tecumseh is exiting the snowblower engine market starting right now, late 2008. 
This years models, 2008/2009 season, will probably be the last regular season 
you will find Tecumseh engines on new machines. 
(unless a particular manufacturer has a stash of engines.) 

This leads to a "future support" question, which, while valid, IMO isnt really that 
big a deal, because there are SO many millions of Tecumseh engines out there, that I dont see parts supply being a major issue. 

3. Briggs and Stratton will likely gain market share, due to Tecumseh leaving. 

4. Tecumseh leaving the market has also opened up the door for a new breed of engines, 
Made in China. some are called "Chinese Honda Clones".. Basically a company in China takes apart a real Honda engine, then tries to build and sell copies of it..stealing the 
decades of Honda research and intellectual property in the process..(and probably not 100% duplicating the Honda _quality._.) Honda has sued over some of these obvious illegal copies.. 
(China is cloning _entire cars_!) 


The above four points are facts..the following is all _my opinion_! based only on personal observation of machines and lots of reading..your mileage may vary! 

OPINION ON: 

No one really knows how good these new Chinese engines are yet..they are too new. 
some say they look ok, others say beware.. 
personally, for me, the words "Chinese-made Honda Clone" dont exactly instill confidence! 
so I made the decision to completely rule those engines out. 
Im looking for Tecumseh or Briggs engines only. 

My advice, when looking for a new snowblower, pay close attention to the engine! 
if it doesnt have a Tecumseh or Briggs & Stratton label on it, personally I would pass. 
Not only for the questionable quality issue, but I also dont want to support illegal cloning. 
(I dont know if _all_ Chinese made engines are clones..but even if they arent, im _still _not intersted!) 

This leads me to an interesting snowblower myth I came across constantly in my research, 
the myth goes something like this: "The snowblower manufacturers make lower-quality machines for the Lowes/ Home Depot/ Walmart market, they arent the same machines that you will find at an independant dealer." 

I have discovered this is simply not true. 

The EXACT same machines are being sold at my local Home Depot and Lowes stores and all the independant dealers.. I checked model numbers.. *all* the independant dealers have the exact same machines as the big-boxes, and I found no models that were _only_ at Home Depot or Lowes, and not at the independant dealers. 

There is no such thing as a lower quality machine FOR the big-box market specifically. 

But like all good myths, there is probably a grain of truth in there somewhere! 
I believe what might have happened is this.. 

Perhaps lower-grade machines are now being built, _because of_ the big-box market! 

Because sadly, these days Americans dont really care about quality anymore. All we care about is price. "I dont care if its junk, as long as its _cheap_!" We are getting our wish..we buy 
an awful lot of cheap junk. This attitude has led to the great success of Walmart, and the loss of all our jobs. (you cant make junk cheap enough if you have to pay Americans to build it...thats why the jobs go to China, because we demand to pay less and less for it all the time..at Walmart.) by the time we, as a society, finally "wake up" it will be too late.._everything_ will be made in China. You will still be able to buy it all at Walmart, but you wont have a job to pay for it. 

But anyway..I digress. 
yes, this all does relate to snowblowers! 

Getting back to them...Yes, its true you will find the "low end" machines at the big boxes, 
(and the big-boxes carry the mid and higher levels too) 
but! in my travels around Western NY, all the dealers carry the _same low-end_ models as 
the big boxes! they probably arent happy about it, but they have to carry them just to survive.. 
If you are a dealer, and Home Depot is selling machines for $599, and all yours start at $800..well, anyone can see thats not a healthy business practice. 

Yes, I suppose there might be some independant dealers out there who can, with all honesty and truthfullness, say "Home Depot and Lowes carry the cheaper machines, I dont have those cheap models in my store". 

If that is true, its only due to that dealers _personal choice._ 
and if there are any dealers making that choice, I bet they are few... 
I havent seen any. 

That is the only scenerio where anyone could truthfully say "The snowblower manufacturers make lower-quality machines for the Lowes/ Home Depot/ Walmart market, but I dont carry those models here." 

So in a general sense, its a total myth. there are not _different _models made for the Big-box market. they are all the same models. However I believe its quite likely that newer, lower-end models have been created _because of _the big-box market! to the detriment of the entire industry, and that is likely what led to this myth..but thats really a different scenerio. 

Having said all that, I agree with the many who say its always much better to buy from the independant dealer! for two major reasons: 

1. Quality assembly by knowledgeable technicians. this is VERY important! 
2. Service and support after the sale, also very important. 

You get neither of those from the big-boxes. 

I have read a lot about problems with newer, quality machines..almost always these machines were bought from a big-box..and were assembled by people who dont know what they are doing. I went to a lot of Big-box stores for knowledge, just to look at lots of different machines..but if I was going to buy a new one, I wouldnt buy one there. 

IMO, if you are looking at new machines, skip right over the $599 level. 
and if you do look at that level, take note of the engine! 

Really, you need to start at the $800 to $1,000 "mid level" to get a quality machine. 

And when it comes to engines on a new machine, with Tecumseh leaving the market, 
that leaves only Briggs & Stratton and...China. 

So look for a Briggs.. 

_although_..even Briggs is making some low-end engines in 
China now! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif although I dont think they are used on snowblowers..yet. 
If you are reading this several years after 2008, the story could be very different. 


OPINION OFF 






So..where did all this knowledge leave me? 
it made me start looking at used machines! 

sure, it would be nice to pay $599 for a brand-new snowblower..but armed with all this new information, and knowing what a $599 new snowblower entails, I didnt want to pay that much 
to get a low-quality, possibly trouble-prone machine.. 

(to be fair, many people have great success with these machines! im not sying they are ALL junk at that price level..im only saying the "odds of getting junk" are higher at that level!)









In theory, I could have bought a new $800 machine..and I almost did! 
I was very close to buying a new 824 Ariens...I did a lot of research on it, and it looks like a great machine! but with tax, its almost $900..and I simply didnt _want_ to pay that much! 
even though I was confidant it would have been a quality machine. 

The job market is very iffy, layoffs at my company have been rampant for 10 years now, and show no signs of stopping yet..my wife is still looking for a job..we need to buy a new car soon..etc etc..I just made the choice that I didnt want to spend that much for a new snowblower..its just a bit more than I was comfortable spending right now...I just cant justify 
that kind of expense right now.. 

So I started looking on the local craigslist for used machines...lots of choices! 
armed with all my new knowledge, I had a good idea of what to look for! 
I looked at a few older used $400 - $500 Ariens and Toro's, but they seemed a bit "not worth it" based on the condition..of course it didnt help that I was looking _during_ snow season! 
they are probably a lot cheaper in April!







But January is when they are for sale.. 
and January is when I need one..so thats that. 

At first I ignored all those little 1960's and 1970's Ariens machines that kept popping up on craigslist, quite a few of them! I probably saw 4 or 5 for sale over a span of a few weeks, just in my immediate local area... surely I wouldnt want a machine _that_ old..when it comes to snowblowers, "newer is better" right? 

one would think... 

but..hmmm..I already discovered there are a lot of _new_ but not necessarily _better_ machines on the market right now..so maybe I should look into these old 1970's machines? see what they are about.. Google brought up some interesting reading! Check out some things I found: 

A fully restored 1971!








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZKdi6SPvQg&feature=related 


And this guy installed a brand-new Briggs & Stratton engine on his 1970 Sno-thro: 
http://www.opeonthenet.com/archives/1206/t_02639.html 

Sounds like the engine swap is fairly straight forward.. 
and there is lots more out on the internet.. 

after reading these things about the old 1960's and 1970's Ariens, they began to grow on me! 
I tried to resist.."I should really get a newer machine" I kept thinking.. 

but the more I thought about it..the more these old machines made more sense! 

1. Money is tight right now..Ideally I dont want to spend more than $400 right now. 
(and even if money _wasnt_ tight..I probably wouldnt _ever_ want to spend $1,000 on a snowblower! I would rather keep shoveling until im too old to shovel!) 

2. Everyone says these old machines are built like the proverbial tank! 

3. Even if the old Tecumseh engine dies, I can install a brand new briggs engine for another $300, and end up with a $600 machine (~250 for the thrower, plus $300 for the new engine) 
that would probably be FAR more reliable and well-built than any brand-new $600 machine 
on the market today. 

4. They are just really cool!







I'm about 1970 vintage myself, (1969 to be exact) so I feel 
an odd kinship with these old machines! they are the same age as me. 

5. They are basic, (I can probably do a lot of simple work/repairs myself) 
rugged, well-built, 100% American-made quality. 

The guy with the restored 1971 (youtube link above) says his Dad bought it brand-new 
in 1971 for $371..doing a conversion, $371 in 1971 dollars equals about $1,500 dollars today! 
these were NOT cheap machines in their day! 
They were quality, expensive machines! marketed and sold to affluent suburbanites.. 

Check out the cool vintage advertising, from an Ariens owners manual: 

















Dig those hip late-60's suburbanites and their yard machines!








I love the names! 
_Rocket VI_ and _Jet_ tillers! (its the space-age!) 
The _Manorway_ tractor, the_ Emperor_ mower..very cool!









(whole manual is here: [url]http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/TIP-69.pdf )[/url] 



Even though they may have been expensive in late 60's - early 70's dollars..today they are very reasonable! I have seen many operational machines listed for sale between $100 and $300, depending on condition, and non-running but fixable machines can be had from between zero to $50. many people have rescued them from the side of the road, after being put out with the trash, perhaps with only minor problems. 

They appear to be common as dirt..a lot of them out there! I saw about 5 for sale just in two weeks of looking around my immediate area..so they arent exactly collectors items..but thats good that there are a lot of them! because its means parts should be readily available for a long time to come, and many new parts are still available directly from Ariens! 

But this leads me to my only reservation..my only area of doubt.. 
the one drawback I can see..the mere fact that these things _are_ so _old_..


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