# Lionel GP7 contact issues



## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

I bought a used Lionel GP7. I have some aluminum track(new) that other engines run fine on. The Lionel sputters and sparks fly and it stops. I noticed the wheels were well worn. I cleaned them with some alcohol and it ran much better for a little while. Now back to stalling and sparking. Any suggestions?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

A couple of questions.

1. What are the other engines that work?

2. Do the engines that work have sliders (skates) for additional power pickup?

3. Does the Lionel have skates?

4. Do you have a multimeter? If you do, try measuring the amps being pulled by the Lionel versus one of the other engines. See if the Lionel has a higher current draw.

I have found that wheels on my LGB engines without sliders (Mallets and Zillertal tank) gunk up much faster that those that do, regardless of brand. When the LGB engines without sliders start to have contact problems, if I run at night I can see sparks.

I do not have this problem with nonLGB engines without sliders: Accucraft, Bachmann.

I use brass track and have no experience with aluminum track.

Chuck


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

3. Does the Lionel have skates?

4. Do you have a multimeter? If you do, try measuring the amps being pulled by the Lionel versus one of the other engines. See if the Lionel has a higher current draw.


Hi Chuck... I might jump in here and answer 2 of the questions.... No, the Lionel Geeps don't use sliders. They have 2 motors per truck and are higher amp draw locomotives... 

I've converted a couple of them and run time is lower than "normal"... They run good but are high draw....

The wheels can and do corrode a lot.. Not to derail the thread but just my experience...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

I don't think that you derailed the thread, you identified the problem and a possible solution.

Thanks,

Chuck

PS The sparking adds to your problems. While aluminum is an excellent conductor, aluminum oxide is not. Aluminum loves oxygen. A thin coat of aluminum oxide forms almost immediately on freshly exposed metallic aluminum. Adding heat and energy through the spark, probably makes the insulating coat of aluminum oxide thicker. 

For your other engines to work, my guess is that they wearing off the thin oxide coating on the edge of the track where the flange and wheel hit the rail. It probably oxidizes again as soon as the train passes.

This process of oxidation is why you can't solder or weld aluminum without using an inert atmosphere (helium) around the pieces to be joined.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I bought a 4-4-2 Lionel G Atlantic this fall and just today put it on my track and ran it. It only picks up power from the four drivers. So while it ran smooth and quiet on my brass track, the sparks were flying. Reminded me of the old days running the American Flyer. For me, I'm going to look at installing trucks on the tender that will pickup power also.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps there is a reason Lionel is no longer in "G". Chuck


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

I have run some Lionel G in the passed and have had problems due to the type of plating on the drivers. They are very prone to arcing and quickly get carbon build up on the wheels and brushes that transfer the power from the wheels to the motor.

Steve


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

I can put other engines on the aluminum rail and they run fine. I cleaned the wheels and the Lionel engine ran fine for a few minutes.


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

I have engines both with and without skates and it makes no difference. What does the amperage draw make with the problem?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The higher the current needed the more chance there will be sparking and then the more pitting and grunge on the wheels and track. What are the engines you are running without problems? Chuck


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

MTH F-7s, Aristocraft steamers.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, those are all one or two motor engines. I figure about 1 amp per motor. Stan said that the Lionel engine has 4 motors. That suggests about a 4 amp or higher load. That easily could cause sparking if there is any dirt or grunge between the wheels and the track.


Chuck

Added comment.

You mention cleaning the wheels on your Lionel engine. Did you clean the track? Arcing will leave deposits on the track as well as the wheels. No matter how much you clean the wheels dirty track will magnify the problem.

I use green scotchbrite pads for both wheels and track.


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

My engine has two motors with a belt running from the motor driven axle to the other axle in the truck.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By oldrk on 27 Jan 2014 06:26 PM 
My engine has two motors with a belt running from the motor driven axle to the other axle in the truck. 
That's a new one on me..... Don't think I've ever seen that drive line before in Large Scale...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This brings us back to one of the original question. What is the current draw? Is it the same, higher or lower than your other engines? If you don't have a meter, where do you live? Someone here on MLS should be near you and be able to help with the measurement.


Chuck


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

I can check the current draw. I have some N scale stuff. Old Arnold steamers would throw off sparks just like the Lionel diesel. I changed out the old tender with a newer one from Bachmann and it was like night and day.


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## oldrk (Dec 25, 2013)

And whats with the stars under my name?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

The stars are related to the number of posts you have contributed to MLS. After a certain number of posts you get a promotion. Right now you are a passenger. After 1500 I became a foreman and at 2500 posts I became a conductor. When you get promoted you get another star. I have one more to go (engineer). There is no significance other than indicating your level of participation in the site. Brakeman comes between passenger and foreman. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

After 15,000 you get a gold watch


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"After 15,000 you get a gold watch"

Greg;

I suppose you should have about two watches by now.









Best wishes & keep up the good work,
David Meashey


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## blazersport (Apr 10, 2008)

I have a Lionel GP-9 in Conrail and have always experienced the sparking from when it was new. The track and wheels get black pit marks all over them. I have cleaned the wheels with a dremel wire wheel and I experience the same issue. They were caked with gunk that was very thick. 

I might have to dig it out of the box and check the current draw. I can also say that mine has a single motor in each truck with the drive band to the other wheel. The band is smooth and I don't know how much power actually gets to the second axle.

When did they go to a 4 motor set up? 

Was it on the GP-9?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Certain wheel compounds seem to arc more and get "gummed up", for example the wheels on the first generation Aristo 0-4-0. I'd chalk it up to the metal on the wheels and the aluminum rail. 

It would be interesting for the OP to try this on brass rail, or stainless... 

Gary Raymond or NWSL might have replacement wheels in NS or Stainless, but the cost of the wheels will probably exceed the value of the loco. 

Greg


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