# best decoders for alco diesels?



## domer94 (May 4, 2015)

I am a huge fan of alco cab units. I just scored an alco PA in new haven for considerably less than retail in new haven livery and it is truly a stunning model. ive been combing youtube and came across one with the QSI titan and it sounded awesome , but its almost impossible to find them. im looking for a motor / sound combo decoder that will do this thing justice without having to go through a long programming process. can you gents point me in a good direction? I also have an RS-3 and a couple of FA-1.

thanks


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Have you looked at the TCS, WOW sound decoder. It has been reviewed here with mixed opinions. Zimo would be another choice.


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## domer94 (May 4, 2015)

Treeman said:


> Have you looked at the TCS, WOW sound decoder. It has been reviewed here with mixed opinions. Zimo would be another choice.


ive been investigating many options from what I read in the threads here. do you know if the TSu-4400 is sound as well as control? I haven't been able to nail that down. I believe the TCS wow is also a control / sound combo?
im on the reinderpass site now


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The WOW has a 12 V regulated output for lights, controls motor and many sound files included.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I like the TCS WowDiesel boards. I've got three of them, each with different Alco sounds (244 and 251). They can be a little finicky to properly calibrate so you get the full effect of the BEMF sound variation, but once it's there, it's really cool to listen run around the railroad. The Alco PAs had dual prime movers, and the TCS will let you select "dual prime movers" and you can adjust the delay between the two prime mover sounds so you can hear them independently. (I've not set mine up for dual prime movers, as my locos don't have them, but the literature lists this feature.) I used to live right next to the Livonia, Avon, & Lakeville RR, which was 100% Alco-powered. Yeah--they nailed it. 

Also, check out the Tsunami2 decoders from Soundtraxx. I've run these in HO diesels on a friends' railroad, and the Alco sound is equally good (at least as good as can be judged through the relatively microscopic speakers in HO diesels). I've not played with the Tsunami diesel sounds personally, though, to compare them to TCS. 

Both the TCS and the Tsunami2 will set you back in the neighborhood of $150. Both also include an entire library of sounds on the decoders themselves, so there's no need to re-program the boards with external software if you want to try different prime movers, bells, whistles/horns, etc.

(I also like the QSI decoders, but--as noted--they're rarer than hens' teeth. No sense recommending that which you can't currently acquire.)

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The PA units are USA Trains. They have motors with a stall current that exceeds the Tsunami rating of 4 amps max. I would not recommend them for your loco. The Tsunami series of decoders are sensitive to over voltage and over current, and the 4 that I have owned all performed poorly in G scale. They are very popular in HO and work well in that scale.

the Wowsound has bugs in the firmware, which will probably be fixed eventually, but they do have a 1 amp higher rating, and have not had overload problems with the one I have on loan, but I have not taxed it. It's construction seems more able to handle the higher stall currents of USAT motors.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, let me preface by saying I am not disagreeing with you or challenging you in any way. Your experiences with the 4-amp Tsunami2 has piqued my curiosity. I have one here, but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Can you expand on what you're seeing with regard to what you describe as performing "poorly?" I do have a 4-amp Econami that I've been running for a few years now and it's performed quite admirably for me, but I run in a less-demanding environment than you do.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, I do not have experience with the Tsunami2, only the smaller ones. BUT, reading their manual, it states that the STALL current of the loco must be under 4 amps.

This clear statement from the manufacturer, and my experience with their smaller decoders on how "sensitive" they are to the limits, and many reports of overload and overvoltage conditions that parallel mine leads me to that comment.

As a rule of thumb, if the manufacturer does not give continuous and stall specifications, my experience over the last 10 years indicates that there is most like little tolerance over the spedified "normal" max current.

So, that's my answer to the Tsunami question.

When you run your 4 amp Econami on a USA Trains PA on a grade with a good train behind it, let me know... I am addressing a specific installation as the Original Poster has asked.

If I was running small locos with a typical NG consist and running at 25 smph, perhaps my answer would be different, but I am not out here waving the flag for the manufacturer I am trying to provide an honest, helpful, and accurate answer to what decoder for a USA Trains PA... (which I have 5 of, by the way, probably 5 more than you own)

Greg - 544


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

The first thing I do when doing a battery install in a USAT engine with traction tires, is replace the drivers with non- traction tired drivers. This eliminates the high stall amp issue. 
Many years ago, at our annual Christmas party, we had a pulling contest. One guy happened to show up with a GP7, which easily pulled a load of bricks, much to the amazement of the red box brigade. If you’re not hauling bricks, you don’t need the tires.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I do the same as you Jim, for the same reason, sort of.

I find the "cracked axle" syndrome happened more often on the wheelsets with the traction tires, i.e. they were taking the brunt of the load.

Also, since I am track power, replacing them with "normal" wheels, increased my power pickup, to the point I could remove the ugly skates.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> No, I do not have experience with the Tsunami2


Thanks. No doubt some of Soundtraxx's previous boards have been flaky (their OEM board that comes with the Bachmann 3-truck Shay which goes into over-voltage shutdown at 21 volts to the track, for example.) However, past performance does not predict future results. Soundtraxx's OEM board they built for the Bachmann Climax was a profound improvement over the Shay. With respect to the Tsu2 and Econami, these are brand-new designs, built from the ground up. The older-generation boards are irrelevant to the discussion of these specific boards' performance.

I couldn't get my 4-amp Econami to go into over-current shutdown during my testing of it, and I ran it through some extreme environments in my Bachmann K-27. Big loco, capable of pulling long trains. I read once in Soundtraxx's literature that there's a fairly significant safety margin built into the decoder between the stated current capacity and when the over-current actually trips. I wish I could find that reference again. It's not in the current revision of the manual so I won't quote specifically what the manual suggested that margin would be, allowing for the possibility that it was removed because the specified margin may not have been accurate. If I see it again, I'll send the reference your way.

With respect specifically to the PAs, I've done R/C installs on them for others, so I'm familiar with their potential current draw. All things being equal between the TCS and the Tsunami2 (which they pretty much are), I'd opt for the higher-current TCS board given the choice in this instance. The extra headroom is nice, even knowing that the 4-amp rating on the Tsunami2 is likely conservative. However, if one were to say "I want to use the Tsunami2 because..." there's nothing from my experience with the 4-amp Econami which would lead me to say "it won't work." I couldn't say with absolute certainty that the PAs be problem-free, either, but the preponderance of evidence based on what I've seen with my own board would indicate a high probability of success.

Slightly related--Soundtraxx has discontinued the 4-amp Econami in favor of the Tsunami2. Soundtraxx told me this was because the boards were mostly identical except for available functions, and they couldn't justify the (nearly) same product in two different lines.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Past performance does indeed predict future performance for the most part in life. SoundTraxx needs more successful "time" in large scale for a few more years to inspire confidence in my mind.

I waited 6 years (and have the email correspondence to prove it) on the Large Scale Tsunami promised to me over and over.

When I get my hands on a Tsunami2 and put it through real G scale DCC paces (24 volts on the rails, heavy loads) I'll report back, until then I will remain skeptical until someone publishes actual current draw and voltage tests.

I see from the published specifications that the overvoltage sensitivity _*should*_ have improved, but I think a person is foolish using a 4 amp decoder on _*any*_ of the USAT diesels, (except the little ones)... that's my opinion and advice to others.

I run long, heavy trains, lots of USAT locos and DCC, vastly different than your day to day experience. I was running DCC when the only decoder you could use on a USAT was a D808, and when the only guy running it outside was George Schreyer. I've been there and done that.

I try to recommend things that will last and have a margin of safety, not run products to their limit right off. No one I know wants to run something on the jagged edge and have it burn up.

I do understand your flag waving for the new products and efforts by manufacturers, but _*my*_ opinions are for the benefit of the hobbyists not the manufacturers. Making a large scale decoder with only 4 amps instead of 6 is nuts in my opinion, it's a no brainer to use 60 amp MOSFETs, and I have the technical background to know this, I work in the electronics field, have the degrees and experience.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I try to recommend things that will last and have a margin of safety, not run products to their limit right off.


I totally respect that you build for elephants even in places where only horses will trod. I'm more of a "try it and see" kinda guy. For me, a slight risk of failure is not enough to cross something off my list of options, especially in an arena where options are often limited. Sure, there are lots of unknowns with a new product. The only way for those unknowns to become known is to have a go with it and see what happens. You don't learn the limits unless you push them. 

It's a difference of perspective. To you, the hobbyist is best served by recommending only safe, proven options that guarantee success. To me, the hobbyist is best served by showing as broad an array of options as possible, leaving it to them to evaluate each option on its own merits and how it fits within their personal risk/reward comfort level. Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. 



Greg Elmassian said:


> I waited 6 years (and have the email correspondence to prove it) on the Large Scale Tsunami promised to me over and over.


It and a hundred other products promised from other manufacturers.  That's just the way of the world, I think, especially in the hobby industry. (Please tell me you haven't been holding your breath for the Accucraft GP60.) 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

From the OP: " can you gents point me in a good direction?"

Kevin, you have clearly stated your idea of a "good" direction varies from mine in this case.

Domer, you have choices, and the previous post gives you a clear definition of why Kevin's recommendations are often way different than mine, especially in your case, that you have not installed dozens of USAT decoders.

Good luck all... 

Greg - 535 and hurtling forwards.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Again, we have here an instance where we're actually mostly in agreement, but clash over the minutia. I stated that I'd opt for the 5-amp board in the PAs because the locos are known for high current draw and can benefit from the extra headroom. You recommend the same board. We agree on that.

As for the lower current board, you're saying don't use it because "the book" says it won't be up to the task. I'm saying _if that's the direction a person wants to go_, don't fear trying it, at least. The worst that can happen is that the over-current protection kicks in and the loco stops. So what? That's why that protection exists. You're not harming the board by trying it in that environment. (And if something catastrophic does happen, that's what warranties are for.) You pull the 4-amp board from the loco and replace it with a 5-amp board instead. You've now got a 4-amp board you can use in a second loco--one that draws slightly less current. What have you lost in all of this? Absolutely nothing besides an evening installing a new board. What have you gained? For starters, you know where "the line" is. Maybe it's right where "the book" says it is. Maybe it's above. Maybe it's even below. The point is, you _know _where, as opposed to playing it safe and just taking "the book's" word for it.

What can I say? I'm a product of my environment. I grew up with a dad who spent his time in the hobby (and his career) doing stuff that had never been done before. From handlaid track to structures to our own battery R/C speed controls and sound systems, there was no "tried and true" when we started out 40 years ago. We were the ones trying, and figuring out what was true. (And a lot of what wasn't, too.) That philosophy guides me to this day. Some stuff's gonna work, some stuff's not. You learn either way. You can go through the hobby playing it safe, but you may miss out on a lot of what you want to do waiting for someone else to do it first. 

Later,

K


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## domer94 (May 4, 2015)

I must admit , watching you two debate the finer aspects of our great hobby is both entertaining AND very educational , and I thank you both.
for my layout which is in an attic , level track , with the longest train being maybe 4 streamliner type passenger cars at the most, I decided to go with the tsunami2 TCU-4400 for the alco PA. this is just based on sound samples pulled off youtube. however, I have a locomotive fetish and love collecting them , almost to a point where I need to seek professional help. so for this reason, I will be converting many more to DCC and will surely sample the spectrum of the available decoders as all seem attractive.
now, I realize one of the plusses of our g scale is that they pretty much command good resale price when sold. does having DCC installed hurt the value much? does it turn off the average buyer?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you keep the analog DC compatibility turned on in CV29, your loco will run just fine on a "traditional" track-powered railroad, and have the sound as well. That may actually _add _value to your loco if you go to resell it. The Tsunami2 manual has a section on analog controls, which allow you to set up how/when certain sounds play when running in that environment. (As do most DCC decoders.) I wouldn't necessarily worry about getting that set up right out of the gate, but know that it's there. And with the newer technology wireless R/C receives coming onto the market which are compatible with DCC decoders, you'll likely find that battery folks will be interested as well because they need only add a receiver and battery to the existing decoder and be off and running.

I would suggest that having an addiction to locomotives is probably not a reason to seek professional help, but instead something that's keeping you from needing to do so.  At least it's kept me out of the shrink's office so far. 

Later,

K


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