# QSI vs. Revolution & Phoenix P8



## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I really do not want to start another this is better than that thread, but I'm honestly interested in clarifying some information for me, and perhaps others as well. 

I know Greg has made the statement a number of times that QSI is less expensive/locomotive than using an RC system, like perhaps the ARisto Revolution and the Phoenix sound system. I believe that this has been true. However, I was reviewing the latest issue of Garden Railways and noted the following:

Aristo receiver in quantities of 1: $82
Phoenix P8, basic board: $175
Total : $257

QSI decoder: $150
G Wire receiver: $115
Total $265

So, I conclude the two are now approximately equal in cost. I don't know if one would need an additonal Magnum adapter or not for $22.

Am I missing something here, or are the two alternative systems roughly equal in cost now?? (assuming that we do see the P8 Phoenix board!!!)

Ed


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

When I was doing this calculation, a year and a half ago, it was significantly cheaper for me to buy the QSI card and the G wire than it was to buy the Revo and the Phoenix. I think they are close to equal now, although I haven't priced them lately


Do you still need to buy a trigger board to trigger the sounds with the REVO, or does the new Phoenix board take care of that? 

Since I now run on DCC, the QSI is much cheaper, if you discount the cost of the DCC rig.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg will know whatz required and how much $ it will cost you,i think you forgot some kind of transmitter to include into your pricing!!! 

Manfred Diel


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 19 Mar 2010 11:46 AM 
I really do not want to start another this is better than that thread, but I'm honestly interested in clarifying some information for me, and perhaps others as well. 

I know Greg has made the statement a number of times that QSI is less expensive/locomotive than using an RC system, like perhaps the ARisto Revolution and the Phoenix sound system. I believe that this has been true. However, I was reviewing the latest issue of Garden Railways and noted the following:

Aristo receiver in quantities of 1: $82
Phoenix P8, basic board: $175
Total : $257

QSI decoder: $150
G Wire receiver: $115
Total $265

So, I conclude the two are now approximately equal in cost. I don't know if one would need an additonal Magnum adapter or not for $22.

Am I missing something here, or are the two alternative systems roughly equal in cost now?? (assuming that we do see the P8 Phoenix board!!!)

Ed
Your missing a few things!!

Seek out and ye shall find!! Do like I do and research your options!! The proof of the pudding is after your first install!! And research on retailers! With Phoenix and using Airwire you have to buy the OEM receiver which is $150 give or take, and the g-wire is $115 give or take with QSI, so if your going with Phoenix its more! Not sure on Revo as I am sold on QSI/G-wire and until something comes out which is easier and or less to install in Aristo engines and some other engines maybe down the road I am NOT seeking any other alternatives, you have to decide which system is best for you for me it was QSI/G-wire, and I am very satisfied where I am at. Regal


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Yeah, the Phoenix board handles the triggers, and I am not talking about pricing between DCC and RC. First of all, if you are committed to DCC, you aren't interested in the Revolution, or other RC unit plus the PHoenix board anyway. Not using DCC myself, I was looking at the "DC" world and comparing the two alternatives in that world.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so it really helps to make sure your comparison is apples to apples, so I will clarify.

(By the way, I have maintained that track power DCC is less per loco than a wireless R/C system, but currently track powered R/C seems to be cheaper too)

I have ignored the throttles and any control system, because after about 4 locos, it does not matter, and why are you using a sophisticated system for just one loco?
(I know someone will still add up the cost of throttles, or power supplies, etc...)

(I'm going to use pricing from RLD, so the prices compare to each other, after all we are more interested in the relative costs) 


So let's speak to what I think Ed is comparing:

*Situation 1:*
Track power for loco, R/C wireless control from throttle to loco.

Aristo Revo system:
$75 - Aristo Revo receiver
$19 - Aristo capacitor board, required for track power (per Lewis Polk and just plain experience)
$220 - Phoenix P9b sound unit


*Revo/Phoenix Total - $314*


QSI Gwire system
$145 - QSI decoder
$115 - QSI Gwire receiver

*QSI Total - $260*

Well, I see $54 difference. The P8 is NOT available yet, so prices are bogus until they are actually sold at that price! The P8 will have to sell for $166 just to EQUAL the QSI setup.



Now situation 2, where you use track power and "normal" DCC control, the difference per loco is now an astounding $169 PER LOCO....


So at $170 per loco difference, I can easily afford the most expensive wireless DCC system I want and still come out ahead on every loco.

4 locos at $170 saving each is $680, so at 4 locos, I can buy a top of the line wireless DCC system.


It's truly a no-brainer once you have over 4 locos or so.

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The real difference in cost comes with track powered DCC or battery/RC. 

DCC is going to be more expensive up front because of the investment in the command station, radio gear, booster, throttles and power supplies. 

However, at about 4 to 6 locos converted, DCC and battery/RC are about a wash. Beyond 6, DCC is way cheaper. This is WITH sound if you use QSI.

However, the original question was about SOUND. 

When the range of discussion is constrained to battery/RC combinations, then the argument gets closer. Good sound is not cheap in large scale not matter how you cut it and adding the wireless gear gets expensive.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

First of all I agree with Greg's and George's numbers. Again, I did not make myself clear, I'm afraid. Since I have battery power and do not use DCC now, I was comparing that situation. I agree my assumption on costs assumed that P8 would be available (sometime??) and that the capacitors weren't required due to the use of battery power. In that case, it looks to me as though the two systems are very comparable, and if anything actually favor the Revolution/Phoenix by pennies.

I'm a little confused about why the QSI gets better, costwise with increasing numbers of receivers, George, unless that applies to systems using DCC.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To answer one question, why the QSI gets better with increasing number of receivers, if it's $170 cheaper for each loco, that is what you SAVE every time.

If you add in the DCC system cost, then the TOTAL price per loco continues to go down when you TOTAL all the equipment and the loco costs, since you have a higher up front cost to get the DCC system.

Hope that makes it clear.

Now for a battery comparision:

*Situation 2:*Battery power for loco, R/C wireless control from throttle to loco.

Aristo Revo system:
$75 - Aristo Revo receiver
$220 - Phoenix P9b sound unit

*Revo/Phoenix Total - $295*


QSI Gwire system
$145 - QSI decoder
$115 - QSI Gwire receiver

*QSI Total - $260*

This time it is a $35 difference. The P8 is NOT available yet, so prices are bogus until they are actually sold at that price! The P8 will have to sell for $1185 just to EQUAL the QSI setup, this is a reasonable expectation in this case.


So for 4 locos, you save $140.


I know lots of people that have converted 6, and 12 locos... it adds up.

QSI is still cheaper and has more functions and is more integrated between the motor load and sounds. 


Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

So I guess Greg, you are agreeing with my numbers. The projected cost of the P8 board is $175. I understand that you like the QSI better with DCC, and that is fine, I was just looking at costs and was surprised to see that costwise for us battery RC folks, the Phoenix/Revolution is highly competitive PER locomotive.

Ed


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OR: 
You can consider RCS - BELTROL + Phoenix and save real money. 

Leaving aside the spurious argument that it does not matter about the cost of the TX, you need to remember each operator will need one. 
So, as long as you have only yourself as the operator you could possibly save money by not having to buy the TX handpiece. If you have more than one operator, each of those is going to cost you the (often expensive) outlay of another TX. 
Do the comparisons properly instead of trying to twist things to suit an argument.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

You are absolutely right, Tony, the cost advantage really tilts in the RC/Phoenix favor when one considers your RCS Beltrol system!

Ed


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some more variables in the equation that very few folks EVER talk about. I sell Airwire, Phoenix and All the QSI hardware, so I have no dog in this fight. I do not currently sell the Aristo REvo, that is likely to change. 

If you run multiple diesel lashups, only Airwire has the grunt to handle more than one loco at a time, especially in the heat of summer. The Airwire reciever has nearly three times the current capacity (conservative rating) of other systems, so it is possible to save serious funds with a single receiver for , say 2 USA F units. Airwire also offers far more lighting options than any other system so your diesel can really be set up in a realistic manner. 

The Qsi current limits have not yet proven to be an issue, but if you live in a hot climate or run long trains , well... 
The Phoenix sound library is unsurpassed for both file selection and adjustability Until QSi brings over the full HO library, and begins to offer far more choices, and gets more adjustability into the system, they will remain in second place. 

For me, my hobby time is increasingly limited and non replaceable. I want to have the best experience I can , and if that costs $20-$30-$xx more, I will generally go the way of the best. 
QSI sounds are very good and the files have a lot going on in the background, In steam for example, the sounds are all there, you just cannot tune, control , or adjust them nearly as much as the same file in a Phoenix board. True Phoenix does not have Automatic load compensation, but it CAN do this manually( sort of like the real engineer would) and has been able to do this for many many years. 
QSI can offer the ability to replace the horn or other sound, for example within a file and that capability is not available with Phoenix, whether this is used much, I do not know, as I do not use it at all so far. 

Some of these quality or personal choice issues are very hard to quantify in $$ and cents. 

I like em all, and the costs are all very close(not an accident, the manufacturers do this purposely), but the argument needs to be fully presented, especially for mulitple locos, or big stuff such as 1:20 or other factors. 

jonathan/EMW


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By eheading on 19 Mar 2010 03:43 PM 
You are absolutely right, Tony, the cost advantage really tilts in the RC/Phoenix favor when one considers your RCS Beltrol system!

Ed




Ed.

You might want to recalculate those figures when you have a look at this: RCS - BELTROL -v- Others price comparisons.[/b] 

These do not include the P8 as it will be the same for both REVO and RCS - BELTROL. The cost differences will remain the same. In favour of RCS - BELTROL.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

"I like em all, and the costs are all very close(not an accident, the manufacturers do this purposely) That statement is what's wrong with our country and this hobby for the most part today!! Unless you are special or buy quantity you don't get the same price as those that do! Believe me I know from experience. How would Wally Weird be able to put small business's out of business, and carp up all or most of the business if that were true everywhere???? What happened to competition amongst retailers. It is true though that manufacturer's, wholesaler's are setting prices and if the retailer doesn't go along with it they are threatened with not being sold any more inventory!! And if you are not able to or buy enough quantity you then get the highest wholesale price too!! It's a vicious circle, when I was in business Wally Weird came in and the first nite they were open I lost 30% of my business, and it slide downwards from there never came back, I was not able to buy quantities like them, I could not buy Coke or Pepsi for my store from the wholesaler, I was forced to go to Walley Weird and buy my product at a lower retail price than I could get at wholesale from my distributor which inflamed them, and then I received NO help from them at all, and they were disgruntled with ME???? I told them, give me the same price I'll sell it for a competitive price!! Never happened As I said in another post "the squeekiest wheel gets the grease or the one who buys the most toys or expensive at once, especially at the same time gets the best deal. We all know this goes on but for the most part won't admit it to most people!! As in sales from experience I know I had retailers that were catered to that way all the time and given the best deal especially if they found out about someone else who they found out was getting a better deal from a competitor!! We all know this goes on and just hope we are getting the best deal we can, or at least not gouged too much in the process!! It's called a level playing field which in this day and age there is none!! If found it's rare i would say. Regal


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

QSI doesn't get any better in the Battery/RC case, only in DCC where the RX gear is not needed at all.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

But you still have not added in the cost of the smoke board for the Rev. So now the price goes up again. And as stated by Ed he is not doing DCC . Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

RJ, I was going to say "but my receivers came with the smoke board". I guess though, you may be right. Perhaps when you buy the receiver separately from the transmitter it is not included? Is that right??

I confess I'm somewhat disappointed in that I had hoped this thread would only discuss the costs for various modes of operation, and not a discussion on the performance merits of one system or the other. In my judgement, that issue has been discussed already to great lengths on this forum. I am sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest. That was not my intent.

Ed


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

QSI/G-wire works with track power or battery R/C You just use the same throttle in either situation. Fire up yer track power, and then turn on yer throttle and it takes over from there. Or hook up yer battery power and run that with with yer throttle!! Easey Peasey!! And I have used my TE to power up my track to then run my procab or t-9000 throttle or power up the track and have the MTH TIU in place, and then use the MTH remote to run on MTH's throttle under DCS Regal


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you proved your point Ed. Based on a reasonable expectation of the price of the P8, it's really a wash cost wise. 

In terms of features, your Phoenix setup will be limited by the number of inputs on the Phoenix and the outputs on the Revo. 

Under DCC, you have a lot more control of sounds with the QSI. 

The Phoenix has more programmability in the "automatic sounds" department, but the QSI has more customization. 

The big thing that I enjoy is the load sensing and modification of the sounds by the QSI, when I first heard this years ago on a Lenz/DIETZ system, I was blown away, and wanted that capability. 

It's nice to have choices, to fit the individual's wants and desires. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

Some of these quality or personal choice issues are very hard to quantify in $$ and cents. Jonathon 

It's nice to have choices, to fit the individual's wants and desires. Greg 

I think these quotes explain things quite nicely.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Ed that you have gotten your answers given the folks that strive to deviate from the original topic. Hope you have got the answers you needed. Later RJD


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Yeah, I did RJ. Thanks. Looks like if Phoenix delivers on its P8 board, then the choice for us users comes down to what we like, and that is sort of the way it should be. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in my cost analysis. And again for Tony, I did NOT look at the RCS-Beltrol, merely because that isn't what I have! That in no way demeans the cost impact of your system!

Ed


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

No system is perfect either but sometimes attitude makes or breaks a purchase. For example, I went the East Coast show Friday and besides looking and buying I had two other missions. One I had a 2 year old QSI that stopped working for no reason on my part. I also had a Revo. rec new that would not link. So I brought them with me to see if I could get some help. Stopped at the QSI booth first and Lew from QSI listened and said let me test it and reprogram it and come back in an hour (he was alone at the time). So next to the Aristo booth with 3 or 4 people and got to talk to Navin about my problems, he thought I had over powered it on track power ( have been using 18v for the last 2years so no way) he tried to link it but no success. He suggested mail it to him and he will look at it at the office. Well thats OK at least I'm going to have it taken care of within the next 2-3 weeks. A little shopping and back to the QSI booth and Lew, well he said the board was dead but here is a new one no cost and reprogramed to the sound I had. Well that is great service. Had it back in the engine when I got home that night and used my new NCE g-wire throttle from the show on it and it works like a charm. You think that Aristo with running the show and a table with couple dozen or more receivers on the table could have swapped one. When I finally get it fixed it will be on Ebay. Again its the little things that make this hobby enjoyable aleast with the amount we are laying out to enjoy it. Thanks again QSI. Jake


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