# 2nd Revo install - now no lights?



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

USAT GP-30 ICG unit NIB
My 2nd install of a revolution reciever was a piece of cake to install, link and get running! BUT, now the lights do not work at all. They worked when tested on DCC/analog power during Christmas etc. Although I think I remember them working in reverse order (backwards etc) I jiggled the light switch and nothing! 








*What is with the flaky spring contacts for lights anyways? This is nothing like the GP-38 I just did!*


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

HELP! I am surprised nobody has replied. Is there a way to go around this spring contact thing? Why am I getting NO lights at all?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have those contacts in many of my USAT locos. NEVER had a failure. I don't think you can call them flakey. 

You just need to track the circuit down, bit by bit. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

do both pick ups need to be powered from the battery? I tried this too but there is no power getting to the lights, even tried plugging the smoke unit in (off position) and nothing! They worked beforehand but worked in reverse. Any way to wire around to test or something? I am no electrician and have no tools etc.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John... 

First, remember that the Revo uses common positive... did you verify that the revo is working? get an led with dropping resistor, and hook to the revo and test... your problem may be something as simple as you have the wrong polarity. 

Please describe your installation... where is the Revo hooked in, etc. Please give details... like battery connected to what, revo track inputs connected to what, revo motor outputs connected to what... 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, all I did was disconnect the plugs from the 2 pick ups to the board. I left the "pick 1" un plugged and used the "pick 2" for the revo. (since it was pointing toward the rear and had longer wires. I color co-ordinated the wires, hoping the USA red was pos+ and the black - etc. to the revo board + and neg - 
Hooked up the battery to the "track" connectors on the revo and it works great! But no lights.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So... 

Battery >>> Revo track inputs >>>> revo motor outputs to some plugs on the USAT mother board.... 

You need to make sure that you plugged the revo motor outputs to one of the track pickups on the USAT board... 

1. Verify the above. 
2. The revo is connected to a plug that goes TO the USAT board? 
3. The loco runs forwards and backwards ok? 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes Greg it goes to the "pick 2" plug on the USAT board and all works perfectly - except the lights


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So far things don't make sense. 

From your pictures, you have the old style lights, i.e. the 5 volt lights. They have an on board regulator, and it's possible that the PWM output from the Revo cooked the regulator. That's the only thing I can think of now that would explain them all going out at once. 

Do the lights work at all? Try putting 5 volts (no more) into the lighting connectors (not the USAT board!) 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I hooked a 9 volt battery to the little spring connectors and the lights worked! Not getting power from the board, how do I wire around it?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You might just remove the wires from the circuit board to the connector. 

It SURE looks like you have the 5-6v lights, so be CAREFUL with a 9v battery!!!! i.e. don't do that again! 

There are 2 regulators (one on each weight). First, do NOT put them both on the same weight! That will burn them up. One of them may be out, and you might be able to replace it and get things working. 

Sure sounds like too high a voltage was injected somewhere. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

right! they worked real quirky out of the box in analog mode as well. I am going to test these things tonight with a resistered LED like you mentioned before. Make sense?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep... 

Those 5v lights are touchy, and you can burn them out easy, don't ask me how I know! It's impossible to get the 5v replacement bulbs from USAT now, they only have the newer 18v ones (this are the GOW ones, not the screw base ones). 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

they sure look like the screw in type Greg?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The screw in ones are the number boards, the leds are the classification lights, and the ones you can't see well in the picture are the GOW (grain of wheat) ones in the headlights... 

There are 2 sets of wires to support these 3 different sets of lights... the headlights are incandescents, the number boards and classification LEDS are combined, the number boards, being polarity insensitive, are on whenever they have voltage, the classification leds are polarity sensitive and are green going forward and red backward (in relation that "that" end of the loco). 

Look at the end of the loco, you will see that what you see in this picture is not the headlights. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

roger that! the headlights could be converted to LED like I did my GP38.... IF I have to re wire it, correct?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, if you power the loco from the motor output of the Revo to the main board, then again, the downside is the lights will not be of constant intensity, BUT the upside is that the classification lights will change colors properly with direction and you will not have to rewire anything. 

If that fails, then you basically will have to rewire, and actually do a bit of messing with the circuit board with the class and number board lights. 

I modified the board, reversed the diodes and make to work "common positive" to work from a standard DCC decoder (which uses common positive just as the Revo TE does). 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

THANKS gREG, but please think in laymans terms. I am just a salesman and generally need step by step instructions on this stuff although I love learning and doing it myself... 

I am powering the loco from the motor ootput of the revo to the main board" via track pick up plugs


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gotcha John.... 

Based on that, here are my recommendations: 

Do what you are planning to do. Do not cut any wires on your loco, buy the appropriate connectors so you can connect in. If the lights do not function properly with the Revo, unplug the revo and plug things back together as stock. 

If the lights and motors do not work properly, try to see if you can tell if there is a bad bulb, but I think then you are at the limit of your expertise. You then need a friend to look at your loco. 

Trying to type up a detailed debugging procedure to find a damaged component is definitely beyond the amount of time I can invest on the forum. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, I test things with an LED and... 
no power at the point the light wires come out of the board to the little resistor blocks. Something in the board fried? Engine still runs and there is power to both motors but not the lights. 
Now, Since the wires out of the revo to board are directional, can't I just run around the board and directly to the wires to the lights? there are white pronged LED plugs on the board that are not being used? No power to these either as far as I could tell with test light , darn it! 
IF THE POLARITY from the revo to the board was reversed, would the motors still run but not the lights? 

On a seperate note, is there a charger for the Revolution transmitters yet, that thing sucks the juice!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First things first, if you unplug the revo and go back to stock wiring, do you get lights? 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you testing this loco with the body shell off? 

If so put it on and try again.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Tony, I am setting it back on so the contacts touch, does it need screwed together?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, to be sure... 

Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok but I already tested and there is no power.... I guess I will return to analog and try that, back to basics correct?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Right, please do, and let's get that baseline. 

Then go from there. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, went back to stock and the lights work now! Except the front number boards and headlights! I must have fried those GOW bulbs when testing with 9 volt battery? now what??


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

so frustrating! Greg, are these the little bulbs you are calling grain of wheat? They look the same as the ones I replaced with LED's in my GP38 headlights...? 
If the headlights are blown will cause the screw in marker lights not to work? Are they in series or something? I am considering changing the headlight bulbs to LED's and leaving the screw in marker bulbs. 








Then I can just simply splice in wires from the Revo to Board wires (directional) to the light wires.... this plug 








How do I find the "male" end for this plug or can I solder to the little brass looking spring inserts? 
Am I on the right track? I run jumper wires already and it worked, except the cab lights.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yours are larger than my GP9, so they must be different. 

The first thing I would do is call Mike at USAT and get replacement bulbs. You can try testing them with 5 volts (not higher) by hooking 3 batteries together (4.5 volts) and check them out... 

I'd replace the bulbs (after verifying they are burned out, and get the entire thing working, since the basic approach is your are powering the entire motor from the track inputs... 

Mike will help you out... 

If you start changing things, like direct wiring, then you will lose the directional classification lights... 

The markers could have been burned out by your 9v battery... 

I think this approach will be the simplest way to get there.... otherwise you have to hardwire the headlights, the classifications and the number boards... lots of work and you would have to rework the circuit boards. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

3 AA's make 4.5 volts? I have wired up the lights to the revo directly and they work, even directional. I don't think the 18 volts will harm the screw in bulbs, it didn't on my GP38. I will call Mike because now I am wondering if something is wrong with the board in the cab since they are the only lights that do not work etc. I'll be back


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I forgot, you can buy the boards complete from them, that might indeed be a better idea. 

Something is funny, if you hooked the lights directly to the Revo and they did not burn out, then you have the "high voltage" version, where the lights have the appropriate dropping resistors to take track voltage.... from the look of the connectors, they SHOULD be the 5 volts ones. 

Simple test, hook up the 4.5 volt battery pack and connect to the plug for the lights that do work. If they light you have the low voltage version. Many of the USAT locos came in both versions, like the GP9 and GP38... 

Please check this one item, unplug the other end lights and feed the 4.5 volts into the connector. This will put this question to rest. 

You also need to know this to order the parts. 

Regards, Greg


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

$20 FOR A NEW BOARD BUT NOT SURE THAT'S THE PROBLEM! I think I will just re wire it with LED's?


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

John..... That's what I've done with my GP's and LGB ALCO's... Yank all the wiring and put in LED's with 1k resistors on each LED and control direction with a 4001 diode. 

If I want to light the number boards, I use a bridge rectifier in that curcuit with the LED's. 

Works like a charm and uses a lot less current which means longer battery runtime.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Exactly Stan - Now... I've never used the diode? the Revo controls direction... ? 
I am working on an order for ALL ELECTRONICS now and will get more rectifiers. 
Question, for the 2 headlights... do I just run them in series? Meaning a short wire from one LED to the other in the middle? Does it matter if it's + to Neg. or vise versa - trial and error I guess?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, if you will run the lights from the revo board you will need to pull them from the circuit board as I mentioned before, they are wired common ground, you need them common positive... 

You can run the 2 leds in series, but you need to calculate the dropping resistor... 

You might want to go back and re-read what I said earlier... 

Don't need diode to control direction if you have the revo output connected to the USAT board and the lights come from the USAT board. 

Need a bunch of rewiring if you want to run the lights from the revo.. 

Regards, Greg


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

John, as I'm not an electronics person and don't know the theories of all the components, I just hook them up so they work.

As Greg posted.... it takes a bunch of wiring...









I don't mess with the lighting tabs on the REVOLUTION as most of my installs are in the follow car and not in the locomotive. But, if you want to use the REVOLUTION lighting hookups, they work quite well when you follow the diagrams in the REVOLUTION manual or any other DCC lighting. 

The long leg on LED's is positive, the short is negative. I put a 1k resistor in line with the positive leg and wire it to the motor leads. When the locomotive is going forward, I find which lead to the motor is positive and hook the red wire from the LED to it. The black wire goes to the other side of the motor. Then I put a diode on the positive side with the little silver ring on the diode facing toward the LED. When the locomotive goes forward, the LED headlight is on. When it goes backward, the LED headlight will shut off. Then I wire the back up lights to work as well. When the locomotive goes backward, the LED backlight is on. When it goes forward, the LED backlight will shut off.

To keep the number boards and cab lights lit, I connect the "~" thingies on the bridge rectifier to the motor leads on and the red wire from the number board and cab LED's to the "+" and the black to the "-" . No diode is needed in that circuit as the rectifier keeps the output to the LED's in constant polarity regardless of polarity of the incoming voltage. A 1k resistor is again used on each of the LED's. 

Because looking at a wiring schematic is like another language I can't understand, this is a simple way for me to do it and much to my surprise, it all works.







I've even put an alternating LED ditch light module in the diesels and they work. Directionally even.


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