# Ladder Roadbed



## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

I know another ladder roadbed post, but if the search functioned worked it wopuld be easier.

Anyways read the entire Paul Race article of Bill Logan's HDPE flexible roadbed. Fantastic solution to my sircumstances, unfortunatly HDPE lumber is hard to find up here without shipping it in. Ironically one of the manufactures Bill lists is in my home town I moved from...

So I've tried to take the soal of what Bill has drafted and found materials I can easily subsitute in place. Without loosing the benifits of the HDPE product.

I came across Certainteed's Composite trim at a local Menards, has anyone worked with this with roadbed or at all? According to the manufacture brochure it should work well as it has the same characteristics, and seeing that my pike will have 10' radius curves should bend easy enough to accomidate. I haven't bought or tried bending the product though...

I also considered using Ultradeck cladding ripped down to size if the trim listed above wasn't flexible enough. Keeping the cross members the same in both assemblies.

The other area I drifted from the design was the uprights or stantions, keeping in mind that my pike will be ground level and that all this work is really to allow the me to remove it when I move yet not present any cliffs for my motive power or clotheslines for my kids. I had considered using PVC pipe as the uprights, part to the previously mentioned conditions but also cause I have a crapload of it already...

Some factors to consider;

-My mailine is a single loop around the backyard with potentail for a passing siding, total length of line 120'+
-I own a hobby woodshop and can pump out cutting any material I have a blade for. combined with a large cabinet assembly table I can pre-fab many components over the winter for a spring install.
-Frost heave could be a factor here in ND, however due to the sharpness at which the temps drop and the duration they stay there I have never seen the effects as other members have posted. Or I could just be lucky.

Always open to feedback...Thanks

Jeremy


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

You might consider using PVC lattice strips. They're 1-1/2" deep by about 1/4" thick strips of PVC. They're very flexible, and when mounted on 1-1/4" PVC uprights, they fall directly under the rails making for good weight distribution. Here's a few pictures of mine giving you an idea of how flexible it is. I placed an upright every 2' and spacers every 1' and it's more than enough to hold the weight of a train. Cheap too, $5 and change for an 8' section.


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Hey, Thanks for the idea I'll have to chack and see if Menards carries them here in town.

I had planned to use 1/2 PVC but 1 1/4" is still cheap enough.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I went with 1x2 PVC trim, from Menard's and Home Depot. 1 1/2 inch plumbing pipe for supports,


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks, I looked again at Menards (only local big store) they don't have the lattice strips. They do have the trim in 10' length. They also had Ultra Fence pickets 6"x 6' they are about a 1/2" thick and could be ripped down. By far they are the cheaper of the two products, perhaps I'll have to buy 2 of each and experiment this winter.

BTW your pike was one of the inspirations that got me back into thinking...very well done and pleasing to the eye.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Manco on 21 Sep 2009 09:00 PM 
You might consider using PVC lattice strips. They're 1-1/2" deep by about 1/4" thick strips of PVC. They're very flexible, and when mounted on 1-1/4" PVC uprights, they fall directly under the rails making for good weight distribution. Here's a few pictures of mine giving you an idea of how flexible it is. I placed an upright every 2' and spacers every 1' and it's more than enough to hold the weight of a train. Cheap too, $5 and change for an 8' section.


























Manco,
that looks great!
what did you use for the spacer blocks?
thanks,
Scot


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,

Were did you find PVC lattice strips1-1/2" deep by about 1/4" thick? They don't have anything like that around here.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 24 Sep 2009 10:01 AM 
Scot,

Were did you find PVC lattice strips1-1/2" deep by about 1/4" thick? They don't have anything like that around here.




That wasnt me! 
I was quoting Manco's post and asking him about his spacer blocks..he is the one using the strips..
I want to find those strips too!
im going to hit the local Home Depot's and Loweses this weekend..

Scot


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## Manco (Jan 5, 2009)

Scot, 

The spacer blocks are PVC 1x2 cut to the OD of the 1-1/4" PVC uprights. I placed a CCA treated chunk of wood every 4' where the splices would be happening and I needed more width to fit the ends of both lattice strips onto one spacer.


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, 
If you find the PVC at HD or Lowes could you post where in the store it would be. I've been the HD site and can't find it. 
Dave 
Penfield, NY


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## bruce a m (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave Use Tuff broad from HD Here in NJ it is back buy the trim wood < Oh and it is white too>


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave Ottney on 01 Oct 2009 02:52 PM 
Scot, 
If you find the PVC at HD or Lowes could you post where in the store it would be. I've been the HD site and can't find it. 
Dave 
Penfield, NY 



Dave,
im looking for it! 
been to two local Home Depots and one lowes..
Lowes has the 1x2 PVC, (for the spacer blocks) its with the moulding, but neither HD or Lowes has the thin "lattice" strips.. 

they sell the plastic lattice, but no individual strips.. 

im going to try 84 lumber (if any are still in business) and Grossmans bargain outlet next..probably this weekend..
I will let you know what I find out!

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave Ottney on 01 Oct 2009 02:52 PM 
Scot, 
If you find the PVC at HD or Lowes could you post where in the store it would be. I've been the HD site and can't find it. 
Dave 
Penfield, NY 


Dave,
found it!
looking for the thin PVC lattice strips.. 

I checked two Home Depots (Greece & Gates) nope..

One Lowes (Greece) nope..
Two 86 Lumbers, (Greece and Henrietta) nope.

Grossmans bargain outlet, off Mt. Read in the city..nope. 


I happened to be out in Brockport last week for the Genesee G Gauge meeting, stopped into the Brockport Lowes..YES!


1x2 PVC (for spacers) actual size = 1.5" x 5/8" x 12-foot long = $10.24 

PVC "lattice" actual size 1.5" x 0.25" x 8-foot long = $5.12


Im going assemble an 8-foot section, place it out in the garden on its legs, and see how it holds up over the winter..
im thinking of using PVC tubing legs, resting on bricks, buried in gravel..


Scot


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, 
Did you ever get this test completed? Jstu wodnering as Iw as searching for a materials list as I'm considering getting some track down this summer prefereably sooner than later! Jsut somehting the girls can play with the Playmobil stuff and I can run a train now and again. (yeah right!) 

Chas


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 20 Jul 2010 09:03 AM 
Scot, 
Did you ever get this test completed? Jstu wodnering as Iw as searching for a materials list as I'm considering getting some track down this summer prefereably sooner than later! Jsut somehting the girls can play with the Playmobil stuff and I can run a train now and again. (yeah right!) 

Chas 




Chas,
No, I never did get any ladder roadbed installed last fall..
and now another summer is winding down, and zero work has been done on the railroad! 
I just have way too many other projects going on.. 

but thats ok, because the plan has changed, yet again..
I have now decieded im going to use deck blocks for the support of the inner loop..
deck blocks sitting on the ground, with 4x4 lumber uprights, then ladder roadbed attached.

I cant do any work in this kind of heat anyway..July and August are pretty much the same as January and February,
as far as doing work in the yard..
Im waiting for September..not sure if any construction will begin this year or not..

also still waiting on some external factors (job outlook) to straighten out..
im hesitant to begin working on the railroad, when we might have to pack up and move..
so..still in holding pattern..oh well..

Scot


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, 
It's all good. I'm simply wanting to get something down to play with and have an opportunity right now. A few sticks of "material" should not break the bank and be simple enough to get a loop running on the ground in one day. Am I being optimistic? I hope not. 

Chas


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I've taken the plunge...I had the opportunity on Sunday after brunch with the Reverend Mother and my girls to stop by HD with the trailer and remembered to grab my birthday Gift Cards. With $120 in Gift cards to spend I grabbed 8 sticks of the 5/8 x 1 5/8 (actual 1/2" x 1 1/2") plastic trim and one piece of 1 5/8 x 1 5/8. This was all 12 foot long and ran about $1 per foot. I got home and was able to change clothes take the tent down from drying after camping in last weekends monsoonal rains in Upstate NY. Assembled the new kitchen chairs we had bought Thursday night. Then I got the trailer unloaded before we had a pop-up thunderstrom chase me inside. I did not get back outside for any length of time to work and checked it later when I let the dog in for the night and it was fine thru the storm stored outside. I'm not sure about long term effects from the weather yet but will be posting on this as I get it set up and see how it lasts thru the winter this year. Plans are right now to simply lay out an oval of track to have something to run some trains on. 

Chas


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well after much procrastination (Weatehr testing) of the supplies that I picked up back in August I have slowly gotten the 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 cut into blocks and some extra PT 2 x 4's cut into slice blocks. A few weeks ago while waiting for dinner I got a simple jig put to gether for the spacing on the blocks. Last night after work since at my eye appt they dilated my eyes all I could do was screw some blocks onto one of the ribs with some help from my youngest. I got one stick done pretty quickly considering I could not see very well. Took the girls inside and we worked on homework until my wife came home and started supper. As she started I changed clothes and went back out and got the remaining three ribs assembled with blocks. Went inside and ate dinner. Got the kids in and out of the baths and went back outside. I got out the circle of track I've been using in the past for temporary live steam set-ups and used that to start assembling the curved sections of the ladder. I ahd a 4x8 sheet of plywood left over from anotehr project and laid that across the trailer for a work table. With some extra 3 inch dry wall screws and a few 6 inch quick clamps it was pretty quick work to get the two sections done. That is what you see in the photos taken with my BlackBerry at about 10pm last night as I was cleaning up. I did not worry aout the straight sections for now although I staggered the assembly of the curves so it looks almost like a complete oval of roadbed it is not. These will get dragged out front of the house and placed partially in the garden and the yard out there. Hopefully this Saturday.


















I should mention that these pieces of Plastic trim came from my local Homedepot in Olean NY and have sat outside on the framework of the tents out in the weather since August with absolutely no visable affects other than some bird "leavings". It sat on top of some scrap 2x4's so it did not sag so I di not notice if it took a permanent "set" or not but it was still very flebable. I did learn a valuable lesson cutting the spacer blocks on my 12" miter saw. Let the blade stop before lifting or the 1 1/2" block will go flying around the garage at high sppeds! Progress HAS been made!

Chas


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Slightly more progress made last night. A long weekend of housework and family time culminated in a twilight assembly of the 4 remaining pieces into one loop of track in the front yard. no photos as it was way too dark out front to take any that were any better than what I've already posted. Hopefully the curves are still pretty close to where they need to be for the sectional track I'm going to use for this. I already know I'll need to cut some track for the straights but would prefer to not have to bend any track at this point. There are two evergreen shrubs that I'm working around and the hose reel. The hose reel will get put away for teh winter soon and the larger of the shrubs needs a tunnel cut near the base towards the house for the trains to pass. Track laying will commence shortly as time allows. Lodge function tonight. The rest of the week getting ready for a large event that the wife & I are cooking for over 200 on Saturday. Perhaps Sunday will be a good day to lay some tracks down? 

Chas


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Looks good Chas, Nice to finally see you getting something on the ground...............


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I hope you are aware that sectional track isn't exact on the size. 10' diameter isn't 10', but rather an inch name for XX centimetres... 

Your ladder should be made to fit your track instead of hoping your track will fit the ladder. 

John


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 
Thanks. Yes I did know that and if you squint really closely at the photos you can jsut make out the red & white box of curves that I used to lay out and screw those ladder curves together with. There was some spring-back once I released the clamps and the long drywall screws from the plywood I used for a work surface. These curves were just slightly larger in diameter than the 8 foot piece of plywood I used. I also put in the 12 foot long sections of striaght as-is but cut down about 6 inches since I staggered the joints on the plastic trim boards and just like bending track where one rail ends up longer than the other so too does this happen in ladder road bed. I had not planned on "staking" the ladder down but I think I'll need to to hold it's shape. I'm also not sure how I want to attach the sectional track to the ladder yet. 

Please keep in mind that this is only a temporary layout for a while to get something running and share my trains with the familly before the kids are too old to enjoy them with me. I have much grander plans but my "honey-do list" incorporates 4 women at my house leaving very little time for my fun projects. not all of us can grow Marty's layout overnight. Or even in one year. 

Nick, My goal is to have tracks down and running by the time that the MLS car shows up. At that time I want to test run my new (to me) Mason Bogie Loco. I may just have to run my other live steamer too. the other trians that will get brought out are the small collection of playmobil trains I started collecting about the time they were no longer track powered. Something the girls can run with minimal supervision. It's onward and upward from there! 

Chas


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is what I do to make road bed fit my track. ( before i got a double rail bender)

This is not a post to try to get you to use Concrete road bed but a demonstratins on how to get your ladder road bed to fit pre curved track. 

I had a 4x8 sheet of ply wood. or you could use OSB

I lay the curve on the plywood and put 2 inch sheet rock screws like you see in the next two pictures



















In this case I was using steel 










Remove the track from between the screws

as you can see you can now shape the ladder road bed to fit the curve.

If you are using something other than steel you can use the out side of the screws to shape your curve.

The spacers can then be cut to match the width of the ladder road bed.





















This was a experiment where I used the steel as rebar for the road bed. These pictures are about 5 years old and the road bed is still in place.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 
That is VERY similar to what I did. I started by assembling a full 180 degree set of curves on the sheet of plywood. Determining that it was slightly over 8 foot diameter. I had pre-cut the spacers and pre-screwed them to one side of the ladder already. So I took the preassembled piece screwed the end of a section to the middle block in the center of the pre-assembled section and clamped that down to the edge of the plywood. I then set a piece of the track on top and bent my ladder to fit. I then drove 3" dry wall screws into the plywood to hold it in place adding in another section of track and repeating the process. Knowing that ti would want to spring back I tended to over bend a little as I was screwing the outside ladder to the spacer blocks. Once I got the first quadrant done I reversed the procedure on the other side. Then did it again for my oval. Knowing all I was doing was a simple oval helped. Nothing was too complicated. The back up is that a I DO own a Train-Li dual rail bender that I've not yet used. Thanks for the tips though! 

Chas


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## dambrose (Dec 27, 2007)

Using the PVC ladder system, are there any problems going from say ground level to an elevated level of approximately 18 inches? 
I guess what I'm asking, how much will this method bend up and down ??? 


thanks 

dan


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 
I'm admittedly an amatuer at this but I've been armchair railroading about this method and decided that for me it was the best and quickest method. I want to say that the first application I saw online had elevations of upward of 3 feet or higher? At his point I have no intentions of raising it. I would base my decision on the number of spacer bloacks and the material chosen and the rigidity & spacing of the supporting posts. I spaced my blocks out at about 16 inches apart and will place stakes to locate it in the garden then lay my track on top. If I were elevating I might add more spacer blocks in though. 

A quick online search for "ladder roadbed" turns up several good threads on this wite and a few others as well. 

Chas


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## dambrose (Dec 27, 2007)

Chas, thanks for the reply. I think I want to add another main line that crosses over my current one that's on the ground. I figure I can paint my PVC support pipe grey like concrete and the ladder system flat black to look like a grider bridge. 

regards


dan


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I am considering using the Ladder RoadBed in my new layout to level out a considerable drop in the yard but looking for ways to hide the ladder portion. I have seen it back filled with earth but what else could be used?


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

This is before I put my other line in, I do have mine raised about 18-24 inches above ground, I am thinking of doing 2 things, Jim Carter did that concrete/chicken wire mountian look, see his post about it, then making valleys in between the mountians then putting in trestles between them. I have a location where I can get lots of boulders/rocks and do it that way, dont know if I want to do all that work though. I am going to leave it for a year before I do it, to make sure thats what I want to do, I have a couple turnouts that are as high, and i have buildings that have to be that high, one is going to be a logging operation, so once i put it on something that will raise it about 16 in, I can build my mountian around it. I like to hear other peoples ideas because that helps me make decisions.










I have to get updated pics.

Tom H


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

A quick update on my loop after wintering in place. I've taken it up (in one piece) and moved it twice now and it sits next to the house on the lawn while I take up the sod. I have a trailerload of "improved" top soil to rototill into the new garden and I need to decide what I will be staking the ladder down with. The only place I'm concerned is the apex of the curves where there is a joint on the outside. I should have gone with a longer splice block and may need to re-do that spot on both ends of my oval. While I was VERY careful when screwing this together to match up to the sectional track and when first done it matched very well, now after wintering it doesn't. So staking it down is a MUST. I have photos someplace and will be taking more as I step thru this process. The almost constant rain has not helped at all. Moving wet sod is a pain in the back! 

Chas


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## Silk (Dec 29, 2014)

Scot
I just found this Post. Awesome, 

I actually used this same method for a small Garden layout and a HO double track layout I am starting. I was at Home Depot looking for a wood flexible enough to bend and came across these latice strips. 
I bought 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 Poplar 2ft Blocks and cut them every 4 inches for the width

I spaced them every 6 inches and moved to 8 inches to make it more flexible and should have went 10 but thought it would not be enough for the track support. 
This method is great and very easy to do. I have a few pics on my phone but I will send some more. 
I basically built the track and Then laid on top of the roadbed and bent it for the radius. Not the best way but worked ok. 
Any tips you can give me, let me know. 
Happy Holidays


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Bighurt said:


> I know another ladder roadbed post, but if the search functioned worked it wopuld be easier.
> 
> Always open to feedback...Thanks
> 
> Jeremy


Have you checked out the very bottom of any thread's page there is a section called, "Similar Threads." Search is tricky to use but the Similar Threads section provides essentially results, for example the Ladder Roadbed threads listed below go back to 2008 & 2009.

You can always fake out the search function if you create a straw-man thread collect the Similar Threads list and then delete your strawman thread.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW! A blast from the past! A my oval has been in place now for 5 years? 

Some thoughts on my successes and failures with this.

1) I noted that I rototilled the garden, adding soil after pulling up some sod to expand the existing garden. Over that I placed weed block fabric and then added mulch on top of that. I then placed the assembled oval where I wanted it and drove the PVC posts into place and screwed the ladder to the posts levelling as I went. This method worked well for me except the ladder was NOT and is NOT Perfectly alligned with the sectional track even though I took great pains to make it that way originally. The good part is it really doesn't matter much. I have NOT added any mulch since I placed teh first mulch down and I desparately need to. I have an infestation of weeds that grown in the mulch that look like parsley when it starts but will grown taller if left unchecked. 

2) I then added Crushed Limestone from my local asphalt plant a few miles from my house. I piled it up to the level of the top of the rails then cleared out between the rails allowing the trains to run. The particular "grade" of crushed I got was ALL approx 1/8" to 1/4" with no fines. The grade I could have gotten with crusher fines ran up to 3/4" size. I felt that was TOO big and after trying to sift out the larger stuff my self I decided it was TOO much work. The problem I am having stems back to number one. I rototilled. The soil underneath is still settling so the ballast that is approximately a foot high settles every year still. When I do the expansion I am planning on simply laying the weedblock down adding in the larger limestone with fines to build up the ROW to the rails and then adding in the smaller limestone. I remember reading about NOT disturbing the base ground underneath but I was already committed to the garden area and the ex wife wanted to actually have a garden there. 

3) MY posts in the ground are only about 2 foot deep which is NOT below the frost line in my area. The caveat here is that this loop is right near the house and therefore the soil has some residual heat from the house. We rarely get a long term hard freeze and the railroad is on the leeward side of the house weatherwise too. I have not experienced any noticible frost heave to date. 

4) I originally did not fasten the track to the ladder at all. I relied on the ballast to hold the track in place and that worked well as long as the ballast was locked into the ties on the track. As the ballast settled the track was then able to move around with the expansion and contraction of the rails versus the ladder. I have placed a few screws into the ties into the ladder to hold it minimally. 

Overall I am very happy with the way it has worked. I do have a dual rail bender so tweaking the track to match the ladder is easy enough. If I chose to go that route.

Chas


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