# new excuses / neverending saga of the JP Morgan bankruptcy



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Latest excuse, or the neverending saga of the Sanda Kan bankruptcy

Well, I read a thread on another forum with great amusement.

We have had a thread before about excuses for why things are not made or forthcoming on the dates promised.

This latest thread just had me rolling on the floor, I may have burst something important.

The thread started innocently enough, a person asking why a certain manufacturer only has diesels, and they are all out of their steam locos.

A rational person and employee of the company replied:


"There are 3 steam locomotives on the current production schedule:

Consolidation
Pacific
Mallet"

... ok, fair enough, although the consolidation has been on the "production schedule" for years, the schedule really means they intend to make it sometime.

There were a number of comments after, nothing really informative, provocative, or informational.

Then, the owner of the company launches into a *huge *response.

The first part of the response is:

"Dear All, From your comments I can tell you don’t get the complexity of the situation."

Off to a nice start, just insult *everyone *and call them *stupid*.... (it says all)..

Next there are SEVEN paragraphs on the steps it takes Aristo to make a locomotive. 

SO WHAT? These are the steps that everyone has to take, has always taken, and will always take to make locomotives. Nothing new here... not sure why this is here....

Not only do we ALL understand it, but we have heard it over and over... what is the point? 

But wait, we get to the meat: (maybe)


"I’m 71 and don’t have a 10 year plan,"

All I take out of this is that Scott Polk better get a new job, since it appears that the company is apparently ending with the owner. Not allowing anyone to share in the future of the company? What a weird statement. 

So no meat there, just a bit of really strange innuendo.

There's a comment about changing the socket to be in the tender, although obviously the tender is common between many locos, and the consolidation was designed from the get go with the socket in the tender.

So, where is the "meat", the reason for no steam locos? What the thread was all about?

Ahh, in the laborious explanation of the production process, there are references:


"First of all, it’s a new OEM factory with all new employees that have never made our steam locos before."

"We have to make all new drawings for the weights and posts inside the tenders and make holes in the locomotives in order to allow for the cabling to go back and forth, which requires another drawing and mold changes. New weights in zinc need to be designed as lead can’t be used anymore to make “toy trains”."


Re-read those first seven paragraphs and you see the word "new" over and over.

So finally, the last paragraph gives the new excuse, the "never ending saga of the Sanda Kan bankruptcy:

"I realize a certain poster here will call this an excuse again, but these are hard facts brought about by the JP Morgan bankruptcy of our supplier as I've explained before."


Now, I have to call "balderdash[/b]"!

1. It's "JP Morgan Partners Asia", not the JP Morgan we are familiar with in the USA. It spun off from JP Morgan completely in 2005. It's purpose was levereged buyouts. 

2. J.P. Morgan Partners Asia bought Sanda Kan for $188 million in 2004.

3. J.P. Morgan Partners Asia was a Hong Kong company.

4. In 2008, CCMP Capital Asia was formed from J.P. Morgan Partners Asia, completely independent of J.P. Morgan Partners Asia, which is NOT the same as J.P. Morgan USA, but this does not really matter, because:

5. In late 2008, Sanda Kan was purchased by Kader, the largest manufacturer of model trains in the world. Kader owns Bachmann.

So where is this "bankruptcy"?

Well there was the one in 2004. JP Asia bought Sanda Kan...

There might have effectively been one in 2008, when Kader bought Sanda Kan.


At the time there were all these comments about how great this was from Aristo management.

Now, almost 2 years later, Kader is to blame for no steam locos, because everything is "new" and has to be done over?

*Balderdash!*


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

gee Greg let it go .....

if he makes something you like and it is on the market for sale buy it.

if he never makes it then I guess he lost a sale to you ... and he won't make money 

if he goes away maybe someone better will come along ......

as for who is in charge in a co. with a ageing CEO I can tell you I have trouble with that every day at our store and it is hard on everyone in and out of the co....

but why beat a dead or dieing horse ..... just be happy with what you can get and build what you can't


regards scott


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I suppose he comments because some 71-year-old guy keeps opening the conversation, no? 
Almost sounds like some freaking moron we've had around here who opens the comments with "you must be confused...." 

High entertainment value, Scott, and it's free!


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

A little cheese with your whine? 

These manufacturers don't owe any of us anything. They can make what they want to make; what they feel will sell for them; and they can make these things on the schedule that works best for them. If their interests happen to coincide with our individual interests, that's great. If not, it's incumbent on each of us to just move on and find something that does satisfy our respective interests. 

Too many in this hobby presume to know how others should operate their businesses. Those who figure they are so darn capable would probably be well advised to get some capital together and launch into a business venture themselves. Competition is great!


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm, just go back to 2006.....and add Goldman to the mix, and you can figure out how this will work itself out.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Allan W. Miller on 27 May 2010 04:03 AM 
A little cheese with your whine? 

These manufacturers don't owe any of us anything. They can make what they want to make; what they feel will sell for them; and they can make these things on the schedule that works best for them. If their interests happen to coincide with our individual interests, that's great. If not, it's incumbent on each of us to just move on and find something that does satisfy our respective interests. 

Too many in this hobby presume to know how others should operate their businesses. Those who figure they are so darn capable would probably be well advised to get some capital together and launch into a business venture themselves. Competition is great! 
I mostly agree. If there was more competition, we'd get better product, with better quality control.

I've often thought Lewis would be better off not posting--his posts rarely make things seem any more clear. USAT has long delays--I'm still waiting for a caboose I ordered back in October--but USAT says nothing at all to its customers.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey,why don't we pick on USA some while we are at it. Where's those 60' boxcars that have been pictured on their website for a year?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

OK Greg, you caught him. Congrats. 
Now what? 
Oh yeah, wait for it..... no really it's coming....just wait!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Here we go again..WHEEEEEEEE!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Like on the other thread, many people will respond: "If he does not make it, then don't buy it"... 

That is NOT the point. 

The point is that there is yet another ridiculous excuse. 

The "JP Morgan" bankruptcy was SIX YEARS AGO. It's still being used for an excuse for everything, and the kool aid squad is drinking it up, which does not help them or anyone get any useful information. 

The purchase of Sanda Kan was TWO YEARS AGO, and in the mean time, USAT, BACHMANN, and the myriad other companies that are manufactured by Kader HAVE MADE and DELIVERED products. 

So, this is the "BALDERDASH"... Since you cannot discuss this on the other forum, and the author has taken it up a notch by insulting everyone who does not agree, and even pointing the finger at an individual, I guess we should just take it? Run out to the store and buy some kool aid? 

Nope, that "reasoning" is BALDERDASH: "senseless talk or writing".... perfect word...


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## tmtrainz (Feb 9, 2010)

Instead of running out to he store to buy Kool-Aid, why don't you run out to the store and buy products made by USAT, Bachmann, and the myriad other companies that you mentioned. Just let it go man.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Greg- I do want to thank you for your posts. 
One of the immediate effects of said posts is the shills falling all over themselves coming out of the woodwork. 
Usually within a few minutes those with kool-aid stains can be easily spotted. 

For the record, I don't buy anything anymore. 
Done. 

Unless it's 50+ year old US made H0 or 0. 

Then I might be interested.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Are you sure he isn't just poking you? 
The rest of us mark it up as 'Just Louis' and move on.... 

Until a product hits the shelves, it's all speculation... 

The point is; it's silly to get so worked up over it. 

Do you know that resentents can kill you? How much space in your head is devoted to Loius and your perception of his faults? 100% more than in mine! 

The point is it looks like you like being disapointed just so you can complain. Is it really about him or isn't it more about you at this point? Yeah Greg caught him again! Whoopee???? 

In the meantime, products will come when they come, regardless of 'promises'. 

When I was newer here I butted heads with some nice folk (you included), something I regret, until I learned to put it in proper perspective...They're only toys! Sure expensive toys, but still.... 

You are not going to change that old man anymore than I could change my Dad's way of doing things. I gave up and lived my own life. I think it's time for you to move on too. You'll be happier. 

John


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Only toys, and Chinese toys at that. 

I was involved just enough to know I want nothing more to do with them, if at all possible. 

You ever notice the anciliiary to all this? 
The "never happy with what you have syndrome"? 

New something or other comes out, the FIRST thing you see is posts that are, generally, "gee, that was nice...what's next?" 

I am at the point in my life where I don't CARE what's next, rather interested in making what I HAVE actually function as it should.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Man it's a good thing I did not start this thread. My boy Jerry Mccolan would be on the hot line to Lewis telling him look what he did again. Ha laugh on them. Yep You would think buy now he does not need to make any more statements about the delays we have heard them before. He can not leave well enough alone. You don't see or hear USAT or Bachman putting there foot in mouth. As stated before you are not required to put out info till the product hits the production line.

Best news is I did not bring this issue up as indicated that I might do by the head man at AC. Joke is on him this time. 

BTW Greg you will probably get a personal e-mail from him when he is notified of this thread. Ask me how I know. 

Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Free Advertising! 
Poke Greg and get our name in print. Use Greg's reputation to gain more customers... if he can get so upset because Product A is tardy then other's will want it, just because he's put in so much emotion! It must be good. 
Cha- Ching!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't believe its that type of free advertising I would want. All bad and no good. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 10:52 AM 
Don't believe its that type of free advertising I would want. All bad and no good. Later RJD 
Yeah, but.....
The Spin Interns will try to turn it to "good", first by shooting the messenger, then by ganging up on said messenger telling said messenger to Shut Up!

They ain't qualified to be Spin Doctors, just Interns.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This reminds me a whole lot of Stewart Piddly on another forum. 

So freaking convinced that everything would work out the way HE expected it to, that facts were immaterial. 

His only hope of salvation is to own some forum somewhere where he can "take offense" and throw people's membership into the garbage. 

Gonna be fun to watch the spin end up in flames....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I can see your side, but... 

1. Of course he would like to be the Bearer of Good News, yet something is going on to prevent that. 
2. I'm not as affected as some regarding his faults... and I waited for the revised C-16, first promised as a $200 range product, then packaged as a $350. Still bought one. 
3. Greg's opinion does carry a lot of weight. On the technical side he's usually right on. His endorsement of a product does influence people. 
4. Many times in these threads others who have had good luck report that too.... a positive. 
5. Age does things to peoples, perhaps as awkwards as it is, it's his way of saying 'we're doing the best we can'. That opening line could read; 'I've tried to explain it, but apparently I haven't done to good...' without it being a put down... unless you are looking for one. 
6. You can't have a discussion with a closed mind. 

Let the old man be foolish, mock him if you must, but why crucify him? For toys? Chinese toys... so eager to keep sending money over there are we? 
It's not like we have an abundance of choices. 

RJ, I didn't see your post above this, was composing my own. How many claim to be the One of note? I thought Greg claimed that too? (I don't go there.) 

A thought... if after finalising production and on subsequent runs CQC faded with out knowledge and one found out through customer's complaints, would you advertise their faults or repair them after sale?..Kinda depends on the depth of your pocket. Margins were beginning to shrink as prices rose and volume shrank... Chosing the later allowed solvency while delaying future productions to (hopefully) prevent a repeat... From what I've learned here, CommCapitalism works in reverse, to make raises they cheapen the product delivered and pocket the diff. Take a good product and make it cheaper rather than making a good one better (The American way). 
It can be hard to change a culture, one we made when we asked for exactly that! Even with shipping it's cheaper made overseas. Outsource! Please Wall Street! Sacrifice American Quality for cheaper labor.... 

All the above is said as discussion, I do not wish to upset anybody nor to appear too foolish, said Pooh hopefully. 

John


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 27 May 2010 12:26 PM 
I can see your side, but... 

1. Of course he would like to be the Bearer of Good News, yet something is going on to prevent that. 
Best bet is to say NOTHING, then.

2. I'm not as affected as some regarding his faults... and I waited for the revised C-16, first promised as a $200 range product, then packaged as a $350. Still bought one. 

And, after the first "expert modelers" thread on the first re-build, no way in hades would I poke myself in the eye again (another of those "best for him to shut up than make it up).

3. Greg's opinion does carry a lot of weight. On the technical side he's usually right on. His endorsement of a product does influence people. 

BTDT, and the ankle-biters get more and more rabid the more you point it out, AND give easy consumer fixes.


4. Many times in these threads others who have had good luck report that too.... a positive. 

As long as it's true, and as long as the reported and viewers don't read the "good" (which sometimes comes from the unit never having been out of the box) as the "only", and wail on....


5. Age does things to peoples, perhaps as awkwards as it is, it's his way of saying 'we're doing the best we can'. That opening line could read; 'I've tried to explain it, but apparently I haven't done to good...' without it being a put down... unless you are looking for one. 

Prime example of foot-in-mouth disease.


6. You can't have a discussion with a closed mind. 

THAT is the POINT!

Let the old man be foolish, mock him if you must, but why crucify him? For toys? Chinese toys... so eager to keep sending money over there are we? 
It's not like we have an abundance of choices. 

RJ, I didn't see your post above this, was composing my own. How many claim to be the One of note? I thought Greg claimed that too? (I don't go there.) 

A thought... if after finalising production and on subsequent runs CQC faded with out knowledge and one found out through customer's complaints, would you advertise their faults or repair them after sale?..Kinda depends on the depth of your pocket. Margins were beginning to shrink as prices rose and volume shrank... Chosing the later allowed solvency while delaying future productions to (hopefully) prevent a repeat... From what I've learned here, CommCapitalism works in reverse, to make raises they cheapen the product delivered and pocket the diff. Take a good product and make it cheaper rather than making a good one better (The American way). 
It can be hard to change a culture, one we made when we asked for exactly that! Even with shipping it's cheaper made overseas. Outsource! Please Wall Street! Sacrifice American Quality for cheaper labor.... 

All the above is said as discussion, I do not wish to upset anybody nor to appear too foolish, said Pooh hopefully. 

John


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

John personal knowledge comes to mind. Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Never have I said his ramblings are a good thing, I don't go there (his site).

I can accept that the old man is that way. He can't keep quiet, inspite of himself. I see it as an illness, not so much as an attempt to pull wool. He's gotten duped along with the rest of us...

I'm thinking more along the lines of; Maybe if you ignored him, his mis-statements wouldn't matter so much. Turn off the link and evaluate the product when, if and when, it arrives.

How mch time is wasted trying to 'educate' him? 

Now I need to qualify good? Just accept a good to be a good, ok? Nothing devious...

Finally, aw fer get abodit'

Later, Toot!!! Toot!!!, the best way to blow steam!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

hey, try posting when you've been on percoset for 3 days


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

The oil spill in the Gulf, Aristo trains....it's ALL Bush's fault!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't whether to laugh at this or cry.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 10:46 AM 
Man it's a good thing I did not start this thread. My boy Jerry Mccolan would be on the hot line to Lewis telling him look what he did again. 


RJ,

I'm afraid you are making too much out of too little. I think I have talked to Lewis once and perhaps swapped emails a couple of times this past year. He probably would not recognize me if I walked into his office.

I had glanced at this topic only because Greg had started it. I was curious what Greg had to say about JP Morgan. It did not occur to me that it had anything to do with Aristo-Craft. I was about to leave without comment and happened to see my name mentioned. 

This topic and similar topics have no interest for me. I mentioned your topic to Lewis only because it peaked my curiosity about when the Chicago Streetcars or Consolidations I have on order might be released. Lewis was already well aware of your topic. He hardly needs me or anyone else to call his attention to a topic that is titled "Another excuse from Aristo." 
How could you possibly think that Lewis would not read such a topic? I would have thought that with that topic title the whole purpose was to have Lewis read it.


If you got an email from Lewis perhaps it was because he thought you were a friend. When I got your email I thought it was from a friend until I read it. Relationships change - sometimes for reasons that only one understands. You obviously have a lot of anger aimed at me and that is beyond my comprehension. I have none for you.

Forums are for everyone. If this subject makes some folks happy and helps them let off steam it may not be my cup of tea but not everyone likes tea.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Tip: 


Massive doses of Percoset. 
1/2 bottle of scotch. 

You will do both. 

Thank god for spell check. 

(Except Percoset is recommended as Perkiest...go figure......)


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 27 May 2010 02:48 PM 

(Except Percoset is recommended as Perkiest...go figure......) 

That just made the thread worthwhile!









Until next week?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

So Jerry your denying that you tip Lewis off on my thread several months ago. From the private e-mail to me you said it was you and that you told Lewis. So take your medicine you knew it was bound to be exposed sooner or later. Of course I can always post you e-mail replies to me.







BTW maybe you should go over there and sip some more of there cool aid. Later RJD


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 04:14 PM 
So Jerry your deniing that you tip lewis off on my thread several months ago. From the private e-mail to me you said it was you and thatyou told Lewis. So take your medicine you knew it was bound to be exposed sooner or later. Of course I can always post you e-mail replies to me.







Later RJD 

Hello RJ,

I was not and am not going to post your email. I don't do that sort of thing. On the other hand since you seem to think there was something I said in my emails to you that was "bound to be exposed sooner or later" I am happy to expose it myself here and now. I don't see any ethics problem in posting my own emails when you "threatened" to do it.

Is this the email you are referring to? 

Apparently I am missing something here.

Why would you object to the topic being mentioned to Lewis?

Isn't the whole point of the topic to tell Lewis about complaints that some folks have about Aristo-Craft?

If someone (anyone) wishes to post comments about problems they have with a product or manufacturer that is perfectly OK but in order for any change to happen the manufacturer needs to be made aware of what folks are saying about their product or company.

There is a major difference between telling a manufacturer what folks are saying about it and then posting their reply compared with taking sides either for or against a manufacturer.

I continue to buy from most manufacturers and I have had my fair share of problems with all of them. I've had enough experience (good and bad) to know what to expect with most of them.

You will notice that I did not deny anything anyone said about Aristo-Craft. There is no reason for me to do so as I am just another customer who buys their products and I have no reason to question what someone else may have experienced with them. 

My expectations are lower for some brands than with others.

Regards,

Jerry 



or was it this:

I was not aware that Lewis would reply with "nasty grams." If I did I would not have said anything to him.

He does not need my input. I talk to him very infrequently and when I did he was already aware of the topic. 

As for "minding my own business" I was. My contact with Lewis was from a personal viewpoint. Since I have PCCs and 2-8-0s on order I was curious about a change in due date.

I have no idea who "George" is or why you dislike him but if you post something on MLS I think it is a pretty safe bet that someone will tell Lewis about it just as if someone mentioned something about LGB it would probably get back to LGB.

Naturally Lewis (just as would be expected on a manufacturers forum) does not allow negative comments to be posted on his forum - I would expect that on a company forum.

Obviously you have some very strong feelings about this issue even though I still do not understand your anger but no harm was intended by me and if you elect to take offense at my actions that is for you to decide.

Lewis and Aristo-Craft are not something I give much thought to. Sometimes I buy their products and sometimes I buy something else.

its just a hobby - not something I lose sleep over or worry about who friends or enemies might be. I had thought we were friends but I guess I was mistaken

Jerry 



I still don't get it.
What medicine am I supposed to be taking and what evil secret is going to be exposed?

As I said, this is not something i am going to be losing any sleep over and I doubt that Lewis will either.

Obviously we are not communicating at all because I do not have a clue where your anger is coming from. If it makes you happy to be angry with me - be happy with your anger.

Regards,

Jerry

I apologize to Greg and to everyone else for sidetracking this topic. I just don't understand what is going on here.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I love this ride, WHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well as we say you diffidently do not get it. Sorry you are not up to speed on what you feel is right or wrong. People that can not refrain from being tattle tales was never tolerated for as long as i can remember and this is a minor issue. You are so dedicated to AC and you are blind sided by his rassal dassel post you can not see the forest for the trees. Get real asnd face the facts. BTW thouht you where not going to reply any more to this thread. Ha must have got your dandruff up







Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

OOOOOOOOOO Boy can i jump in now and make some Kool aiders cry with the truth? ive been a good boy lately..................







espesially the one who posted that lame Revo thread that was only a sales pitch. And folks please dont beleive it was anything else than that. We all know how a Kool aiders mind is twisted and warped to justify the poor quality and mistruths that come out of NJ......... Please SOMEONE engage me PLEASE..................................I have a story to tell.








A couple as a matter of fact............... Can anyone say lets make the King of the Kool aiders look well DUMB once again by his own mouth. Maybe he will blame all his troubles on his poor engineer that has cancer like he did his Mikado. That was even a all time low FOR HIM. Blame everyone one else but the source for junky trains. Like i said before, Buy PULK SIT AND SULK, Buy Ro and watch it GO.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 06:03 PM 
Well as we say you diffidently do not get it. Sorry you are not up to speed on what you feel is right or wrong. People that can not refrain from being tattle tales was never tolerated for as long as i can remember and this is a minor issue. You are so dedicated to AC and you are blind sided by his rassal dassel post you can not see the forest for the trees. Get real asnd face the facts. BTW thouht you where not going to reply any more to this thread. Ha must have got your dandruff up







Later RJD 

RJ, you cant argue with a Koolaider, even one that forgot to tell everyone he is in regular contact with the ownwer of that company, plus has done consulting work for him as well. you cant argue with crooked salespeople because they will always think they are rite no matter how much you prove them wrong time and time again. in my opionion they are pritty much jokes and arent worth responding to other than once again proving them wrong time and time again.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 27 May 2010 06:16 PM 
Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 06:03 PM 
Well as we say you diffidently do not get it. Sorry you are not up to speed on what you feel is right or wrong. People that can not refrain from being tattle tales was never tolerated for as long as i can remember and this is a minor issue. You are so dedicated to AC and you are blind sided by his rassal dassel post you can not see the forest for the trees. Get real asnd face the facts. BTW thouht you where not going to reply any more to this thread. Ha must have got your dandruff up







Later RJD 

RJ, you cant argue with a Koolaider, even one that forgot to tell everyone he is in regular contact with the ownwer of that company, plus has done consulting work for him as well. you cant argue with crooked salespeople because they will always think they are rite no matter how much you prove them wrong time and time again. in my opionion they are pritty much jokes and arent worth responding to other than once again proving them wrong time and time again. 

I give up. Your words speak for themselves.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 27 May 2010 06:28 PM 
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 27 May 2010 06:16 PM 
Posted By aceinspp on 27 May 2010 06:03 PM 
Well as we say you diffidently do not get it. Sorry you are not up to speed on what you feel is right or wrong. People that can not refrain from being tattle tales was never tolerated for as long as i can remember and this is a minor issue. You are so dedicated to AC and you are blind sided by his rassal dassel post you can not see the forest for the trees. Get real asnd face the facts. BTW thouht you where not going to reply any more to this thread. Ha must have got your dandruff up







Later RJD 

RJ, you cant argue with a Koolaider, even one that forgot to tell everyone he is in regular contact with the ownwer of that company, plus has done consulting work for him as well. you cant argue with crooked salespeople because they will always think they are rite no matter how much you prove them wrong time and time again. in my opionion they are pritty much jokes and arent worth responding to other than once again proving them wrong time and time again. 

I give up. Your words speak for themselves.


Please, save the BS for someone who doesnt know any better.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentlemen, tone it down or the topic gets locked.

Just to keep things clear, I locked the topic not Kevin.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen.... you know the rules. 

K


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