# LGB Power Storage Device with Massoth eMotion XXL?



## chico9726 (Jan 4, 2022)

Is it possible to connect the LGB Power Storage Device (55429) to a Massoth eMotion XXL decoder?

Trying to figure out if I can avoid buying a pricey Massoth keep alive unit and use something that I already have on-hand. Not an electronics expert, but I've done alright for myself with the help of everyone in this community!

Thanks.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used supercaps on my ZImo decoders. My stainz has 10 farad caps of 2.7 volts in series. My stainz now runs in the open air with 2 lights, smoke and motor on for more than 20 seconds!! One does have to remember that when installing power storage capacitors to limit the charge current as to not trip (that is create a false short to the power supply) and discharge via a diode to get full current to the engine. ZImo has this feature built in to their decoders. My stainz needs to run for a minute to get the full charge to the super caps.


----------



## chico9726 (Jan 4, 2022)

Thanks Dan!

In fact keeping a Stainz alive with this sort of solution is exactly what I'm trying to do as well!

Assuming for a moment that I have an adaptable solution in front of me with the LGB power storage, is there some wiring guidance that pops out to you based on the pictures provided? I've highlighted on the decoder diagram the spots where Massoth talks about wiring for their own power cap solution. Is it as simple as cutting the connector plug off of the LGB power storage device and routing the wires to the appropriate terminals?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That board appears to have nothing more than the caps in series and some small bleed off resistors.

So the original question on connecting to the Massoth decoder is answered by what does the Massoth manual say? i.e. can you connect a capacitor only to it, or do you need to add a few more components.

So what does the manual say? Alternatively, if they tell you nothing except to buy THEIR product and plug it in, you need to find out if the Massoth product is the same electrically, i.e. a bare capacitor, no more circuitry, and just 2 leads...

if you put a link up to the decoder and the Massoth power unit, I'll look at it, but I am sure there are people here that already know the answer.

Greg


----------



## chico9726 (Jan 4, 2022)

Thanks Greg -

Just as you've mentioned I've been sleuthing the internet to compare and contrast the Massoth power solution to the LGB that I have on-hand. Not being an electronics expert though, I'm hoping to get some experts to weigh-in before I go off on my own trying stuff .

The decoder manual doesn't expressly say that only their power cap will work, so maybe that's promising? My best guess thus far is that the Massoth "Powercap" is designed to plug-and-play work with the decoder, but that other products might also be a fit...maybe that's just wishful thinking though!

Here are the manual links in case you have the time/interest to keep exploring this with me - 

Massoth Decoder Manual: https://www.onlytrains.com/Merchant5/graphics/00000002/8153101.pdf (Referenced as "Power Buffer")
Massoth's Proprietary "PowerCap" Solution: https://www.allaboutlgb.com/pdfs/Massoth eMOTION power Cap micro User's Manual.pdf

Thanks again.

B.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As I said, want to check the wiring, if it is just 2 wires to the decoder and 2 wires from the "buffer" that is simple, they could only be connected to the capacitor (multiple units in series can be viewed electrically as a single larger unit)

BUT

Both the decoder manual, and the buffer manual show a third wire, called "buffer control", so clearly this is not compatible directly.

NOW, if there is an expert out there, and can describe how the buffer control wiring works, maybe we could figure it, but you will have to wait and see. I would not connect this and try it, you really have 2 wires (of the 4 wires, 2 are in parallel to handle more current)... to connect to 3 connections...

Buy the proper unit is my recommendation.


----------



## chico9726 (Jan 4, 2022)

Having spent countless hours in this forum, I take your recommendation as wisdom Greg. Really appreciate the perspective on this one.
This is my first time taking the leap to post a question here rather than suffering it alone…glad I did it! Thanks.


----------



## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

chico9726 said:


> Is it possible to connect the LGB Power Storage Device (55429) to a Massoth eMotion XXL decoder?
> 
> Trying to figure out if I can avoid buying a pricey Massoth keep alive unit and use something that I already have on-hand. Not an electronics expert, but I've done alright for myself with the help of everyone in this community!
> 
> Thanks.


Chico - I sell the LGB 65011 Power Storage Unit for the LGB 65000 series Sound Modules for $80, and the Massoth 8151701 Max Power Caps for $85 and the Massoth 8151601 Micro Power Caps for $65 for the Massoth Driving or Sound Decoders. So the LGB item and the Massoth items prices are in the same range. I asked Massoth Technical Department last year the same question about using the LGB 65011 Power Storage Units on Massoth DCC decoders and they said no, don't do it. The Massoth units have a special design for recharging and other features required for Massoth decoder that the LGB unit does not. You could damage the Massoth decoder by trying to use the LGB unit. I don't know about using other generic power caps with the Massoth decoders but I'm sure Massoth would say not to do it.......if you damage the decoder by doing it the Massoth 12 months warranty may be voided.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB 6500x storage unit is basically a 9 volt unit. For a decoder you need a much higher storage voltage. I use many 10 farad caps wired in series and added a resistor for limiting charge current and a diode for fast discharg, My LGB stainz running on DCC power will run for 20 seconds (motor, lights, smoke on) in mid air after a 2 minute charging run.


----------



## LGB333$$$$ (Oct 11, 2017)

Dan Pierce said:


> The LGB 6500x storage unit is basically a 9 volt unit. For a decoder you need a much higher storage voltage. I use many 10 farad caps wired in series and added a resistor for limiting charge current and a diode for fast discharg, My LGB stainz running on DCC power will run for 20 seconds (motor, lights, smoke on) in mid air after a 2 minute charging run.


Dan, the LGB 65000 series Sound Modules are also DCC/DC analog decoders. But you're saying it's a different design than other DCC decoders and requires less voltage to operate? In DC analog power, the Sound Module will operate the motor at low voltage but the Sound Module's sound activation requires about 7-9 volts just like the Massoth DCC sound decoders. Please explain what's different about the LGB Sound Module's design that you're referring to.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The differences in voltage in the various solutions may be the difference in powering the entire decoder (higher voltage needed) or just keeping the microprocessor alive so it does not reset (lower voltage).

Just speculation.

Greg


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB 65000x sound units do work at low DC voltages. I just ran mine which has my home made super caps module charging via a LM7809. I turned on power to 10 volts DC and got sound from my LGB steam 6500x. I let it run for 1 minute. I turned off power and got sound for 20 seconds (I used 10 farad super caps 4 in series which gives me 2.5 farads of power). I use pure DC power, not pulsed power. Now the question would be does the 6500x storage unit charge up to near the track voltage or does LGB do what I did? Need to measure the charging voltage sent to my module which I did and found it is full track voltage to the module. But when turned off the module works for sound with just the 9 volts from my storage module. I would need the real LGB module to find the capacitor storage value to further make an accurate statement rather than guessing from what worked for me.


----------

