# Water Pump Size



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I have a 60' stream that will emply into a 200 gal pond. I plan to add a few water squirting features along the stream alson a squirting feature in the middle of the pond. 

My question is, I'm having a hard time figuring out what size pump I should get? 

By "by golly" measurements I figure the water has to be lifted 15 ft to the water fall weir. I was looking at a 1500 gal/hr pump but I'm worried it is going to be too small with the added water features. I want to make sure I have a good volume going down the stream. Not white water rapids but I'd like a nice flow of water. If I go too big will that harm the pump?

So what do you think? Any advice is welcome.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

There are several different kinds of pumps. 
I think your reservoir is too small for the amount of water that will be flowing. 
The second pump on this page should suit your needs. Or something similar, this was the first one I opened after a google search. 

http://www.azponds.com/New_webpages/New_subpumps_Classic.html 

The head is more important than GPH as the flow will taper off after it's reached. Also listed for 'dirty water' is a must (in my mind) for pond water. 

I'd also consider smaller pumps for your features so they can be turned off seperate from the stream and vice versa. 

John


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

You need a big enough pond at the bottom to hold all the water in the stream or it will overflow on a power outage, then pump too low when the power comes back on.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When I was sizing pumps for a fountain, there is usually information on the amount of head that the gallons per hour are good for. So you know the "head" ... 

What I did is feed water from several hoses to get the flow I wanted, then captured the water for a minute or two and then multiplied the gallons captured by a number to get gallons per hour. 

That will give you the gallons per hour you need. Now just match a pump up to your "head" and the GPH you need. 

Regards, Greg


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the info. 

Excellent website John. It even has a calcualtor that based on my numbers says 975 gph at 20'. I'm gonna also use Greg's advice and try to simulate the volume of water I want and see how that matches with the recommendation. 

I'm also in aggreement on the smaller pumps for my water features. I think I'll probably do that.


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Jake, 
I've done the same thing with a smaller pump. The main pump runs through the filter and fills the upper resevoir then spills over into the stream, then empties into the large pond. The smaller pump with just a strainer on it to keep out the large debris powers the extras that we wanted. This way, that pump can be shut off when we don't want them running, but allows for the 24-7 operation of the filter. 

good luck!


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By Steamnutt on 30 Jul 2011 03:18 PM 
Hi Jake, 
I've done the same thing with a smaller pump. The main pump runs through the filter and fills the upper resevoir then spills over into the stream, then empties into the large pond. The smaller pump with just a strainer on it to keep out the large debris powers the extras that we wanted. This way, that pump can be shut off when we don't want them running, but allows for the 24-7 operation of the filter. 

good luck! 

Did you put the small pump in the main pond or in the stream?

I was thinking of making a small pond along the stream route and then put the pump in there for the small features.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends on how wide/deep the stream is. For waterfalls typically you use 100gph for each 1" of width of waterfall. I use the same gauge for a stream so long at you want to see moving water. You then need to figure the head into that figure.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Not every yard can support a large containment pond. My configuration is similar to yours but the height is a lot less. If I were you, before redesigning your pond (to prevent water loss during power outage as someone mentioned), you might want to research floats. I'm using a $12 cattle trough float. It works like a toilet. When water gets too low, it fills it up automatically (assuming your hose is attached and left on). This works very well for the slight water loss I experience through evaporation. However, if you turn the hose on more than a trickle, this particular float will not work, as water will leak out even when the float is in the up or closed position. Like I said, it works perfectly when the water is barely turned on. The other drawback is that in winter it will freeze, if you are planning to run water year round (unless you live in some heavenly place like San Diego). 

So my thought is, before you do any redesign, try to research a more advanced float that will allow a large stream of water into the pond once power comes back on (we are getting rolling blackouts now with heat, but I've added a diaphram to protect the pump in low water). 

Also, be sure to tell us what results!! 

BTW, I'm using Aquamax OASE 2100 pump, a bit less powerful than what you need, but been working great for me for 2 years now. Thanks forum for recommending. 

Dave V


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's the float I'm referring to: 

Got it from QC Supply 800-433-6340, called Trough-O-Matic anti-siphon plastic float valve # 270361 for $12.64 

You will need something similar but more advanced that will allow a lot of water in (gpm). 

I'll try and post a photo:


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

trying again 

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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

wow, that's the first time I got a picture to post in a long time! 

one more thing, Jake, if you plan on having fish or tadpoles, the float idea might not be so good b/c the influx of water will contain chlorine or choromines that will kill the fish (it's probably killing us too, we just don't know it). That is, unless you are tapping into wellwater. 

there might be a way, however, with an advanced float, to introduce an inexpensive dechlorinator (available everywhere), perhaps in a reservoir within the float (similar to how miracle grow is mixed in a container when your hose is turned on. 

Dave


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

just did some research and found one that will fill at 100 gpm; they probably make others that do more: 

http://www.underwaterwarehouse.com/Auto-Fill-Valves/Easy-Pro-Brass-Fill-Valves-p-1074.html


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Excellent ideas on the float. 

I grew up on a ranch and the ag floats are very familiar to me, I had not considered that option. I will see what I can do there. 

As for the water quality, I'm on well water. I live in the middle of a forest so I dont get those chemicals that the municipal's put in the water. So it should have no effect on fish. My 4 yr old asked me if we could put some fish in the pond, but we are not suppose to eat them. So, I guess I'm committed to putting some gold fish in the pond. I'm not going to spend the money on Koi just yet and I really dont think the size of the pond is big enough for Koi. 

My train of thought was not to redesign the pond, since it is a pre-formed one, and I really dont want a larger one and then have about 175 gal of free space in the pond to account for a power failure. It wouldnt look right to me with all that empty space. I was looking at putting a shutoff valve that will shut off the pump if the water level gets below a certain level. I am the very last person "on the line" when it comes to power, I get power failures regularly, but mostly in the winter and I wont be running my pond in the winter.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Great, I'm glad to see that this may be of some use. Looking forward to updates/pictures! 

The reason I got a float is b/c I was on vacation last month. My daughter was home and I asked her to top off the smallish pond, smaller than what you have. When I returned 3 or 4 days later, the water was still going, full tilt. 

All the tadpoles were dead. Fortunately, the tree frogs have bred again and mini tadpoles have appeared. I had no idea they breed so late in season. Of course they attract plenty of snakes too. 

I told my wife what happened with the hose being left on so she doesn't get a heart attack when the water bill comes.


Good luck with goldfish. Maybe bring them indoors in winter. Some folks install heater or aerator. The heater could melt plastic so the aerator is sometimes preferred. But goldfish are dime a dozen. Koi are finicky and you really have to be dedicated for that sort of thing. A diaphram will shut off the pump when water is too low (it works on pressure). I forgot the brand of mine but it is sort of flatish. You need about 12 or so inches of water to activate it so your pump stays on. When water gets below a certain level, it shuts off the pump (the pump and diaphram are plugged into each other). You can use different brands of pumps with different brands of diaphrams. It is more for peace of mind with expensive pump, which has a thermal cutoff if it overheats. The diaphram is extra insurance.I've run my OASE aquamax pump both out of the pond and inside. It works both ways and is pretty quiet. 
My system is a complexity of canals and an aqueduct, btw, so what you are doing is pretty similar in those aspects. 

Dave


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Jake, 
Sorry it's taken so long to reply. I have the small pump in the main pond, then have a hose off of that going up to the top of the stream with all the other items attached to that. Our problem wasn't the stream overflowing the main pond, but the smaller 80 gallon bog pond at the top of the stream emptying into the main. When the power went off, the water stopped and started draining back into the main, and with vacume working against me, it would empty out the top and overflow. I put in a simple back flow preventer that I found on line through a water garden site and.....problem solved. 
However, your stream is longer than ours, so you may still have a problem depending on how much water the stream actually holds. 

Good luck


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Np, thanks for the help. The website that Dave posted had a nice calculator. It said I would have around 150 gal in the stream itself. I think that number is a little high, especially since I'm dropping about 15-20 ft in 60 ft. I did add a few small spots for the water to slow down and pool so it wasn't just a white water slide. 

I checked flow and was going to get a 1500 gph pump, but when I went to the store to pick it up, they didnt have any. So the next size up was a 2000 gph pump. I found some info and if I dont open the valve all the way to restrict the flow of water up to my waterfall, it wont hurt the pump. I have to get some fittings together today and get the waterfall fullly hooked in.


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## Steamnutt (Apr 12, 2008)

One thing that I learned many years ago, it's usually bigger to go larger than smaller. I've had a valve on on one of my water features for years without any issues. I've tried pumps that are "recommended" by size only to find they are actually too small and don't give the flow that I'd like to see. 

Post some pics when you have it done


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 03 Aug 2011 05:35 AM 
I'm using a $12 cattle trough float. It works like a toilet. When water gets too low, it fills it up automatically (assuming your hose is attached and left on). This works very well for the slight water loss I experience through evaporation. However, if you turn the hose on more than a trickle, this particular float will not work, as water will leak out even when the float is in the up or closed position. Like I said, it works perfectly when the water is barely turned on.Dave,
I think something must be not quite right with your float. I grew up with livestock troughs that kept filled via floats, with 40-50 psi water pressure behind them, and they didn't leak when in the up position. (If they did, our water troughs would have always been overflowing.) So, I suspect yours is a tad defective unless you have some outrageous water pressure. What also doesn't make sense is why closing the hose down to a trickle keeps the float valve from leaking: when the float valve is closed, the pressure should build up to full line pressure regardless of the hose valve setting (called "static pressure"), the same as if the hose valve was wide open. I have the feeling that your float valve isn't working at all, and it is the trickle from the hose that is keeping your pond full.

-Jim


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Jake, 
If you go with fish in your pond, bear in mind that they drastically increase the filtering requirements due to all the waste that they produce. Lots of plants will help, but you'll still need a good filtration system if you have very many fish. 
Some links you might find useful: 
http://www.watergarden.com/
http://www.skippysstuff.com/
http://www.eponds.com/ (see How-to articles) 
http://www.aquascapedesigns.com/index.php# (see Pond Owners Handbook) 
-Jim


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for all the great ideas. I did get my water feature in go to my builders log and see my last post to see pictures of it. Building the DBH

Here a few stats:

I went with a 2,000 GPH pump. I'm glad I did.
I also put a Bio-filter system that can keep up with the flow rate of the pump.
I ran a 1" line from the filter to the waterfall.

A lesson learned....I have done all of my own plumbing in my house, outbuildings and my business. I thought I knew enough to do whatever I wanted with this project. When I was doing my dirt work, I put a 1/2" PEX pipe in the ground to supply my waterfall from the pump. I assumed that this was enough because it was the GPH that I was concerned about. I was figuring that the higher the GPH the higher the volume coming out of the pipe. Not exactly true. What I didnt realize is since the pump is low pressure, I need a larger diameter supply pipe if I want to get higher volume. So I had to re-dig a 1" line to get the volume I wanted. It is still a little low, and I was thinking of using the 1/2" pipe (already in the ground) also to get a total of 1 1/2" of supply up to the waterfall. I'm gonna give it a try and see what happens.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

When we set up a pond we typically use 2" flex for anything up to 8,000gph.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

If digging it up is too much work (for example, if it is embedded in concrete) you could always run a parallel line, realizing of course, that you already dug it up. Just a tip for anyone else reading.


Regarding floats, there are lots of choices out there. Mine requires very low pressure, as a friend or two of mine from the GardenPond forum keeps the pressure low on it.

DaveV


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Also, realize that two 1" lines do _not _ equal one 2" line. It's the cross-sectional area that matters, not the diameter, and area is proportional to the _square _of the diameter. So two 1" lines are still less than a single 1-1/2" line. Here is a cool calculator that tells you how much pressure drop you'll get and what the velocity is for you input of pipe size, gpm and length of run http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/faq/psi-loss-calculator.htm It's for PVC pipe, but the results will still be instructive for some other pipe materials, excluding flex hose which has way more friction loss.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I think that you would be disappointed the a 1500 GPH pump. It would look like a trickle. We often use 4500-5000 GPH for streams. Requires a 2" line.

A caution on using an auto fill. If you have a leak, that is very common on do it your self water features. You may not know you have a leak.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

always good to go with higher GPH and T-off the flow back to pond; that's what I'm doing; Regarding auto fill, simply turn it off for a day and see what happens 

Dave


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## markperr (Jan 7, 2008)

The rule of thumb I was always told, and this applies to ponds that will have fish in them, is to change the water over completely a minimum of three times an hour. Given that, estimate the total amount of water in your system, multiply by three and that is how much water flow you should have at the head. If it's 500 gallons total (not a big pond), then you would need 1500 GPH at the head. With a 15 ft rise, you could be looking at a 4000-5000 GPH pump to do the job. I have a rise of about five feet and have roughly 1100 gallons. I use a 3500 GPH submersible magnetic drive pump and it works okay, but when it ever dies, I'll probably upsize to 5000GPH. My main pond is 900 gallons, but I'm looking to increase it's size this year, so I might find myself buying a larger pump more sooner than later. Can't let the koi die.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

When buying a pump that will pump a lot of vertical feet (over 5'-8') you need to really find a pump that is specifically designed to do this at a lower amp usage. Most pumps /can/ pump to higher heights but the GPH drops so quick and the amp usage goes up so fast that the life of the pump and how much it runs per month will change up to 3x vs using a pump designed to pump more head from the start. Imagine trying to tow a train with a Porsche, sure it's got speed but it doesn't have the torque and head needs torque and thus a pump designed to do this without costing several times the price of the pump in electricity for a year of use alone. Some of these pumps may go from pumping 3000gph at 20' to 2500gph at 75' of head for example. A regular 3000gph pump would go from 2000gph at 10' to 0 gph at 25'.


Also, turn over does depend some on the type of fish and the make of the pond. About any number of goldfish in just about any pond are fine with just one overturn an hour. A few koi in a large liner bottom pond (>1000gallon) with external settlement tanks and bio filtering are fine with once or twice. As the koi numbers go up, the size of pond shrinks, or the use of gravel bottom liner ponds or bog use comes into play the numbers go up or get very tricky to figure out. 3x per hour is a good number though if you have large koi and the biggest issue is not always overturn with fish but keeping air going into the pond during hot summer months. Also if the pond is over 5000 gallons how often you turn over the water goes down. I know a few people with ponds over 30,000 gallons and the general rule I've heard for those is 1/3rd the pond capacity in gallons per hour (unless you have trout and the number is about 1/2 capacity). I personally have a 3,000 gallon pond with 7 various filters including settlement, bio, bog, s/g, uv, skimmer, BD and TPR's and other stuff and overturn 5x per hour mainly because of the requirement for my waterfall which is a 2' wide solid sheeting fall which needs about 200gph/1". I only have about 20' of koi length but I expect to have close to 60' of koi length in 5 years so my pond was heavily overbuilt to be safe but I still check my water every few days during the hottest summer months for ph drop which is often the biggest killer of koi. So my comments for railroaders, don't ever plan on getting fish, just drop in some chlorine tablets and/or bleach weekly during the summer and use a skimmer and Bottom Drain to keep the pond nice and clean. And if you want to do something nice add plants and don't use bleach/chlorine and hide how ugly the pond gets with all sorts of water plants.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

More excellent info. An Update on my pond: 

It worked well all year. But about beginning of Nov., the pump died. I suspect that what Mark was describing, is what happened. The pump I had was a Sunterra 2,000 GPH pump. I took some advice of a few on this page and this year bought a magnetic drive 4,500 GPH better quality pump. Hopefully everything will be ok. We shall see


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By jake3404 on 28 Mar 2012 09:51 AM 
More excellent info. An Update on my pond: 

It worked well all year. But about beginning of Nov., the pump died. I suspect that what Mark was describing, is what happened. The pump I had was a Sunterra 2,000 GPH pump. I took some advice of a few on this page and this year bought a magnetic drive 4,500 GPH better quality pump. Hopefully everything will be ok. We shall see Jake, I bought a Sunterra 2,000 GPH pump a little over a year ago and it quit on me last spring. I contacted the company and they sent me a replacement pump free. If it quits anytime soon I'll probably be looking for something better (I think this is my fifth pump over the past 10 to 12 years). I hope you will keep us informed as to how your new pump works out.
Bob


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