# Revo Overheat Shutdowns



## KD Rail (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm having problems with my engines shutting down due to overheating and would like to know if any of you might have some insights as to why.

First some details...
Grades: my layout is essentially flat
Curves: minimum radius is 10' (20' diameter)
Power: Battery (Aristo Li-Ion packs), track pickups have been unplugged
Control: Revo
Sound: Phoenix PB-11

I have three engines converted, only one works properly.

RS-3: This engine is fantastic! It's a great puller and will pull a 35 car consist around one of my 170' mains for 2 1/2 hours. It is equipped with a single battery and has one lead weight in the fuel tank.

SD-45: This engine was the first one to give me grief. On my initial installation, I left the speaker wired to the main circuit board and then plugged the phoenix board speaker outlet into the main circuit board with the supplied plug.
It worked for about an hour or so and then stopped dead, no indication on the transmitter. Removed the hood and could not see anything unusual so I put another Revo RX board in, linked it up and off it went, again for about an hour and then stopped dead. Both Revo RX boards are non-functioning.
Not many people in my club have experience with REVO, Battery and Phoenix so I was kind of on my own... I revisited the wiring diagram provided with the Phoenix sound system and noticed they show the speaker as being connected directly to the PB-11 board and not via the main circuit board of the engine. I thought perhaps it was feeding back somehow and was blowing the mosfets in my Revo RX boards. The speaker is now connected directly to the Phoenix sound outputs.
I tested it for a long time, pulling about 6 cars and it ran great. The problem now is if I haul more than 8 or 10 cars, it will run for about 30 to 45 minutes and will suddenly stop dead with the transmitter showing it has Overheated. To be clear, it does not show Overloaded, it is an Overheat shutdown that is taking place. With the switch cover off you can smell 'that electrical heat smell' but there has been no blue smoke and visually everything checks out fine.
In this loco I have two batteries that are paralleled together with a Y adaptor, and I have verified that all polarities are correct on the plugs.
This engine has two lead weights mounted in the fuel tank.

Dash 9: I just completed the install on this engine last night and just took it out for a spin. This engine also has two lead weights mounted in the fuel tank. Pulling a 34 car consist it ran for 15 minutes and then shut down due to a Overheat condition.

I have another 5x Dash 9's and 3x SD-45's to do installations on but first I need to figure out what is going on here. What is so weird is that my little 4 axle RS-3 with just one battery out-pulls and outlasts these big 6 axle units! It has been very hot in Houston these last few weeks, but I have been running the engines first thing in the morning or in the evening so the ambient temperatures have been in the mid-80's to the low 90's. Any assistance with this issue will be greatly appreciated!

Keith Stratton
Chief Custodial Officer
KD Rail


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I had my board warm up but not shut down on my ride on engine so i simply installed a cooling fan for summer. I have done that in many battery RC cars before.


----------



## Westport (Nov 28, 2009)

Keith, I believe that there is an old thread on this on Li-on batteries. I had the same problem on my layout that has gradients with my Dash 9s, Bachmann Consol, with their smoke systems working. Naturally, the battery would cut out-warm to the touch, in the most inconvenient place. My sound systems have their own batteries so that was not a problem but the draw on the smoke units cut the battery use by at least half or even more depending on the length/pull of the train. By not using the smoke units, time of use was back to normal. I tried the y system connecting two batteries but that was no great benefit even with the two batteries and people here told me the same-just too much draw on the batteries. I do not have a fan. If there is more to it, than it would be nice to find out. 
Myron


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Keith 

With a revo and a Tenergy 14.8 volt battery, mine shut off when trying to pull 12 center flow hoppers up the high line at Marty's. I'd turn the system off wait maybe 15 seconds and turn it back on and it would go a few feet with help from us pushing it. It kept shuting off until I got it all up on level then it went fine after that. 

I have a 18.5 volt pack on order and was told by Greg to do the following: 

The 7 amp of the battery pack is plenty. 

The polyfuses that Aristo uses are 3 amps and start cutting out a bit before 3. 

On the dash 9 the polyfuses are thin orange squares with 2 leads. 

They will probably have something like 1k3 on them or something like that… 

I’d get some 5 amp ones… 

So it might be these 3 amp fuses mounted on the Dash 9 from the factory


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If the loco stops, then it can be the polyfuses as Randy states, or it could be the Revo. 

Since you are getting the overheat message, then the revo believes it is overheated. 

The 4 motors in your SD and dash will draw a lot more amps than your RS3, partially because it's 4 motors vs 2, but more because the rs3 motors are just more efficient... draw less amps for the same output. 

It also seems from everything I have read that the higher voltages on the aristo li ion packs seem to trigger strange things from the revo, and this has been admitted by Aristo on their own forum. 

I'd rig up a small fan to blow air on the revo to test this out... one simple way is 2 miniature 12v fans in series, so they will run just right from the 21 volts on the battery pack, I'm talking the little cpu type fans 

Let us know... 

Greg


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

The Revolution has a stall speed of 3 - 3.5 amps, one thing that we did was manufacture the RCS Booster that takes their 3amps and increase the output up to 12amps by dissipating the heat from their heat sink to our board. Here a link to the website page: http://cordlessrenovations.com/?page_id=5847 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By izzy0855 on 01 Jul 2012 08:11 PM 
The Revolution has a stall speed of 3 - 3.5 amps, one thing that we did was manufacture the RCS Booster that takes their 3amps and increase the output up to 12amps by dissipating the heat from their heat sink to our board. Here a link to the website page: http://cordlessrenovations.com/?page_id=5847 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America 
That would be a stall "Current" Rick.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to derail the thread, but how does the heat sink BELOW the Revo, on the OTHER side of the board cool the FETs? It's not even touching the Revo board itself.









The heat is generated by the FETs on the Revo board (top) and there is a heat sink in pretty good (there is a piece of foam between the FETs and the heatsink.

According to the ad (which does also say "stall speed" instead of "stall current") this unit cools the board on top. I took thermodynamics in college, this does not work.

Are there any additional transistors on the booster? that would make sense, but reading the ad, it is merely an additional heat sink.

Below is a Revo with the heat sink off:










Greg


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 01 Jul 2012 08:19 PM 
Posted By izzy0855 on 01 Jul 2012 08:11 PM 
The Revolution has a stall speed of 3 - 3.5 amps, one thing that we did was manufacture the RCS Booster that takes their 3amps and increase the output up to 12amps by dissipating the heat from their heat sink to our board. Here a link to the website page: http://cordlessrenovations.com/?page_id=5847 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America 
That would be a stall "Current" Rick. 
And by the way, stall current is determined by the motor, not the controller. You are speaking of "maximum continuous current" specifications for a control. In the case of the Revo, they claim 5 amps continuous in the manual. It wouldn't surprise me if it is less than that, but I haven't tested one either.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rick, I don't want to give you a bad time, but you REALLY need to do a better job on your advertisements. 

Get a technical writer if the details are too tough to convey. 

I looked at your page again, and I can see that there are transistors on that board, it's the only thing that makes sense. 

But your advertisement is all wrong... the advertisement says you are giving the existing board better cooling.

How about: (take out all the red parts and put in the blue parts)

*Product Number:* RailLinx Booster
*Description:* Increases your Decoders decoder's stall speed to peak output current to 12amps.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________


*Features Include:*






Cordless Renovations introduces the New RCS RailLinx PNP Booster. Our thoughts in designing this revolutionary board was to offer a product that would dissipate heat from your existing controller/throttle and increase it’s output. We designed this to add a completely new output stage with higher current output and better cooling. Now you can operate multiple engines from one controller with the help of the New RailLinx Booster.


The RailLinx Booster was designed to increase the maximum peak output current or “stall speed” of your current PNP controller/throttle buy absorbing the heat generated from your controller. In other words, relieving the heat generated from your controller’s heat-sink and letting the RailLinx Booster absorb it. Now you can pull more cars from one engine or add an additional engine to your consists without the price of a new controller.


Easy to install, the RailLinx Booster plugs directly into your existing base PNP carrier board, like a sandwich; then you plug your controller directly into the RailLinx Booster. No wires to solder or directions to follow.

Basically you are increasing the output capacity by adding larger output transistors and a bigger heat sink.

Your existing copy basically tells people you are adding a heat sink to cool the throttle. Not only would that not work, but you are selling your product short.

Now, I could be wrong, but looking at your illustrations on your site, I see components under the heat sink, and "Q1"... "Q" is normally a designator reserved for a transistor.

Hope you take this suggestion to heart and sell more stuff!

You won't have to make one for the QSI though, the new QSI will have a high current version.

Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Given that the individual pins and sockets on the PnP assembly are rated at about 3 amps continuously (max 5 amps) and there just two pins and sockets on the power output to the motor(s), I doubt they can handle the 12 amps claimed. 
Yes, I know there are four pins and sockets on the input, but the max current *out* is determined by what those two pins and sockets out to the motor(s) can handle.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can't argue with that logic, that's why some manufacturers have turned to screw terminals. 

Greg


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

I refer to it as "Stall Speed" it may not be the correct terminology but that is what I refer to it as. So, Greg; what is your hourly rate? 

I'll make this quick, our Rockwell engineers tested the RCS Booster for over 6 months using 12 different loco's pulling the same dead weighted load. With each test they increased the weight of the dead load until the loco reached it's stall speed. With every test on every loco tested the Revolution failed at 12amps. We redesigned the PCB board 4 times before I made it available to the public. It works and sales have been over-whelming and that's why I'm out of stock. 

I may not have all the answers or the correct terminology, but I will try like **** to manufacture a product line that train enthusiasts will enjoy! 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr IZZY. 

I didn't say the thing you make would not handle a 12 amp load. 

What I am saying is the pins and sockets on the standard PnP pcb's in Bachmann and AristoCraft locos cannot handle 12 amps on the motor circuit. Component suppliers rate the pins and sockets at 3 amps continuous and max 5 amps.


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

It is not just the pins and sockets, the etches on the boards need to carry the current. 
It is of no help to have a 12 amp output and 12 amp connector and only 3 amp etches. 
And wiring harnesses in engines do not have 12 amp capability, so many manufacturers place reseting fuses in line with external connections. 
Both Aristo and LGB place these devices in their engines.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rick, I believe your claims on the product. I would strongly encourage you to update the wording on your site to match what the rest of the hobby uses to avoid confusion ( and lost sales!). 

If you make the changes I suggested, it will be a lot closer to what the unit is really doing. You did not explicitly answer my question about whether or not your product has it's own output transistors. 

I believe it is very important to mention this in your ads, because, again, you ad just states that it makes things cooler. In reality, the same amount of heat is generated no matter what the hardware, it's more of a matter of where the heat is generated and the component temperatures. 

All that aside, I'd be happy to help for free. Give me an email if interested. 

Greg


----------

