# Updated Bachmann 4-6-0 on the way.



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Straight from the horses mouth:

Posted By Yardmaster (Bachmann forum admin) on September 24, 2011, 08:33:18 AM 
"Metal drive gears and a new die-cast lead truck." 

Bachmann forum post 

Probably shouldnt call this new version the "Annie" I suppose..that nickname really only applied to "Generation 6" of the 4-6-0 Big Hauler..
this will be Generation 7..how about:

Annie+

 nah.. 


Scot


----------



## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

Scot, 

I know of gen 5, but what is the definition of Gen 6? 

Barry - BBT


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Barry, From everything I have always read, Gen 6 is the Annie:


Big Hauler Tips

I think there are only 5 gearboxes however..but Six clear generations of Big Haulers:

"Gen 5" has the same gearbox as the Annie, but has plastic siderods and the "older" details..these are all the current "non annies" being sold.
"Gen 6" is the Annie, has the same gearbox as Gen 5, but has metal siderods and all the updated Annie details (such as the improved "steel" cab, and other details)

Im pretty sure that is correct..thoughts anyone?

Scot


----------



## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

My only comment is that the "Plus" models and the Annies share the same drive, obviously the Annie has significant upgrades in everything else. 

I'll stick to Ver 5 drive and next to come as the 6th. 

Barry - BBT


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By BarrysBigTrains on 30 Sep 2011 01:20 PM 
My only comment is that the "Plus" models and the Annies share the same drive, obviously the Annie has significant upgrades in everything else. 

Barry - BBT 
Then shouldnt the "plus" and "annie" be considered "seperate generations" since they are so different? 
I would think so..(and so does everyone else it seems) 
I'll stick to Ver 5 drive and next to come as the 6th. 


Barry - BBT 
ok..but you will probably be the only one!  drives are only one part of the engine..
the engine as a whole is taken into account when designating "generations".. 
which is why the Annie is considered "Gen 6"..even though it has a "Gen 5 drive".. 
'Gen 5" and "Gen 6" (Annie) have the same drive..but are very different in other ways, and are very easy to tell apart..its not confusing. 
Scot


----------



## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

By my reckoning: 

Gen 1 - Battery power, plastic rails. 
Gen 2 - First track power 
Gen 3 - Designated "Plus" by Bachmann Good gear set up, but motor moved. 
Gen 4 - Motor mounted to metal "U" bracket, looked great, but bushings slipped, axles pulled out. 
Gen 5 - Open gearbox (the best so far) Used in "Plus" models and in Annies (bought separately). 

My "Generations" are drive development. The applications of the drives, do not create new generations. 

My approach, keep it simple. 

Barry - BBT


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By BarrysBigTrains on 01 Oct 2011 03:07 PM 

My "Generations" are drive development. The applications of the drives, do not create new generations. 

My approach, keep it simple. 

Barry - BBT 
The applications of the drives, do not create new generations. 

Actually, they almost always have..Generation 1 through 5 are based solely on different drives .

It is only Gen 5 to Gen 6 where the drive has not changed..and the need for a separate Gen 6 is obvious because of the large differences 

between the annie and the non-annie. 


My approach, keep it simple. 

It is significantly *less* simple to have a "Generation 5" that is *both* the Annie, and the non-Annie at the same time.

that makes no sense, would be very confusing, and has never been accepted by the hobby at large.


It is far simpler to have a "Gen 5" with plastic siderods, and the Annie as Generation 6. 

The locomotives are SO different (even though they have the same gearbox) that the classification into different generations is simply a given. 

This makes sense, and is what the hobby has accepted..perhaps unoffically yes..I dont know if Bachmann has "official" generations they use among themselves..but "the hobby" (meaning the community of all of us large scale modelers, at large) often makes up its own language, "annie" being one such name. Bachmann has never called the locomotive the "annie" .."we" invented that, and it is now part of the common language we speak..

So is "Generation 6" in reference to the "Annie".. 


you may believe what you wish, but as I said, you will probably be the only one.

Scot


----------



## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Scot,
I agree with Barry. Not because he knows more about Big Haulers and Annies than just about anyone.
But that is probably reason enough.

The Generation 5 and Annie were both sold at the same time. My thought is they are different models, of the same generation.
Much like a base model of an automobile compared to the upgraded version of the same.
Ralph


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Ralph, 
thats fine..doesnt change the fact that there are 6 generations of Big Haulers!  

IMO, we arent really debating if there are in fact 5 or 6..there simply *are* six. 
if someone chooses to not believe that, then thats fine..doesnt change the fact that there are 6 generations of Big Haulers!  

George Schreyer was probably the first to use "Generation 6" in reference to the Annie.. 
and everyone has been using it since, because it makes sense: 

There are at least SIX different motor/gearing systems in use in Big Haulers. The later versions have the motor mounted in a metal bracket with the gearing. I don't have a 4th generation loco, but from reports from the field this one seems to be more robust than the earlier versions. Even so, I've still heard of the gearing getting mangled. Engines with this gearing will have a bulge on the bottom cover right between the rear drivers. This bulge clears the larger gear needed on the axle so that a reasonable reduction ratio could be achieved without intermediate gearing. The 5th generation has an intermediate reduction gear and a more substantial gearbox This version seems to be holding up well in real life service. The 6th generation is the "10th Anniversary Edition" (aka "Annie") version. I don't have one of these, but reports from the field indicate that it has the same gearing as the 5th generation drive, but with a 7 pole motor. The 7 pole motor allows it to run more smoothly at very low speed. 
from: http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html 

and actually, he suggests the Annie has a different motor than the "Gen 5" Non Annie..not sure if that was ever confirmed or not.. 
but if it is true, thats even *more* reason to refer to the Annie as Gen 6, even apart from the obvious upgrades, in details, metal rods, etc.. 
that are enough, by themselves, to separate the Annie into Gen 6. 

People have been calling the Annie "Generation 6" since it came out, 10 years ago now..The use of "Gen 6" is well entrenched in the mythology, its accepted, and wont be going away. 
The newest one, not yet released, will simply have to be Generation 7. 

IMO, its not even a question, its not even debatable..it simply is. 

Scot


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

A reference from 2001 that mentions the 7-pole motor for the Annie:

lizard attitude - 2001 

A reference from 2003 that mentions the 7-pole motor for the Annie:

2003 forum post 

So if its true that the Annie, in addition to the all detail upgrades, metal siderods, new steel cab, etc, *also* has an upgraded motor from the Gen 5 non-annie..
still think the Annie isnt worthy of being Gen 6?? 

If is is also a different motor in the Annie, (im not sure if that is confirmed as true)

then the only thing the Annie and the Gen 5 now have in common in some gearing..
the whole drive mechanism is *not* the same if they have different motors.. 
So now we would have six distinctly different drive trains.. 


Scot


----------



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, but the real question is: How much is it going to cost? 

Robert


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 02 Oct 2011 11:19 AM 
OK, but the real question is: How much is it going to cost? 

Robert 



No one has any idea on that yet..
all we know so far is the little blurb from Bachmann that I posted in the first post in the thread..
I doubt they have said anything publicly about price yet..I would hope its not any more than the current Annie,

but time will tell..

Scot


----------



## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Sigh. And I suppose it will not be 1:20.3.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By joe rusz on 02 Oct 2011 10:20 PM 
Sigh. And I suppose it will not be 1:20.3. 



No..clearly not.
It will simply be the "latest and greatest" Big Hauler 4-6-0..(not that there is anything wrong with that! 
same shell as the Annie probably,with perhaps some small detail upgrades, in addition to the drive upgrades Bachmann announced..
(although Bachamann only mentioned a few drive upgrades..so its possible the shell and details will be exactly same as the annie) 
So it definately wont 1/20.3..but still, one of the classics in the hobby! 

I wonder if Bachmann has ever considered a radical upgrade to the Big Hauler 4-6-0 to actually turn it into true 1/20.3 scale?

would need an all new cab of course..probably new domes and pilot, and other details..but seems like it would be

easier (and cheaper) than introducing an all-new loco from scratch.. 


problem is, it would have to be totally freelance..and Bachmann likes to make models of actual prototypes.
(the Big Hauler is based on a real locomotive)..so maybe thats why they havent done it yet..
but still, even if it didnt have a "real" prototype, seems like it could be a good seller.. 


and they have already set the precident..Technically the Bachmann Forney doesnt have an actual prototpe!
It is clearly based on the Maine 2-footers..but Bachmann built it to 1/20.3 scale, which makes it a 3-foot gauge loco..
technically "freelance" and not based on an actual prototype that once actually existed..Bachmann called their forney a "Baldwin catalog" design,
a loco that "could have" existed..it was in the Baldwin catalog..Baldwin could have built the same style of 2-foot forneys (that they did actually build) to 3-foot gauge for other customers, 

even thought they never did in reality...so its a "proto-freelance" design I suppose.. 


Scot


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Scott:

Re the Bachmann Forney.

As the prototype forney was two foot gauge and the 1:20.3 track is three foot gauge, how does the model body scale out?

Did Bachmann blow up a 2 foot gauge piston spacing and body to widen the piston track gauge spacing to 3 foot gauge as in is the 1:20.3 model body larger than it would be if the 1:20.3 model was designed for O gauge track for 2 foot gauge in 1:20.3 scale?

In otherwords, would the1:20.3 scale Bachmann forney body be 2/3 of its present size if it was correctly gauged for 2 foot 1:20.3 scale track?

So is the 1:20.3 Bachmann forney body oversized? 


Norman


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Scott: 
Re the Bachmann Forney. 
As the prototype forney was two foot gauge and the 1:20.3 track is three foot gauge, how does the model body scale out? 


The body scales out just fine..its an accurate scale model of a Forney, in 1/20.3 scale. 
Basically how it works is this: 

Baldwin built several 2-foot gauge forneys for the 2-foot gauge railroads of Maine: 










Imagine if Baldwin took those same designs, but simply moved out the wheels to make them 3-foot gauge instead of 2-foot gauge, 
and then sold such a locomotive to a 3-foot gauge railroad! Overall locomotive is the same, just the gauge was increased from 2-foot to 3-foot. 
Basically this is what Bachmann built a model of..a 3-foot gauge locomotive that never existed, but *could have* existed.. 
The Bachmann forney is an accurate model of this fictional 3-foot guage locomotive in 1/20.3 scale. 
Bachmann clearly based the "shell" on SR&RL number 8 and 9, 2-foot gauge locomotives that did exist. 

Did Bachmann blow up a 2 foot gauge piston spacing and body to widen the piston track gauge spacing to 3 foot gauge 

Yes. 
Piston spacing and frame was widened..Body of the locomotive itself though (boiler, cab, walkways) was not widened, 
because it doesnt have to be. 

is the 1:20.3 model body larger than it would be if the 1:20.3 model was designed for O gauge track for 2 foot gauge in 1:20.3 scale? 


No. 
1/20.3 scale is 1/20.3 scale, regardless of the track gauge..the overall locomotive itself is 1/20.3 scale, and this particular model just happens to be gauged for 3-foot.. 
In theory you could re-gauge the Bachmann model (with much difficulity) to make a nice accurate model of a 2-foot gauge forney, running on 32mm "O-scale" track in 1/20.3 scale. 
you would move the cylinders back in, along with the driver spacing, to match the prototype 2-footer.. 

I have been working on this exact concept, except converting a Bachmann On30 Forney to On2 scale! Its a major chore..Bachmann did not take regauging into account, 
and basically you have to scratch build an entire new frame..its not as simple as just regauging the drivers and sticking them back in the frame. 

In otherwords, would the1:20.3 scale Bachmann forney body be 2/3 of its present size if it was correctly gauged for 2 foot 1:20.3 scale track? 


No. 
it would be the exact size it currently is if correctly gauged for 2 foot 1/20.3 scale track..because the scale isnt changing, only the track gauge is changing. 

So is the 1:20.3 Bachmann forney body oversized? 

No, not at all..its scaled perfectly for 1/20.3 scale! Imagine you could take the real SR&RL locomotive Number 9 (photo above) (which sadly no longer exists) 
regauge the drivers from 2-foot gauge to 3-foot gauge..build a model of that in 1/20.3 scale..thats what Bachmann did. 

It can be confusing!  but hopefully that clears things up somewhat.. 
any other question, just ask!  

Scot


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Scot: 

Thank you for the explanation. I understand. 

Can anyone post size comparison photos of the HLW, LGB and Bachmann forney? 

I guess the 1:20.3 Bachmann forney will be much larger than the 1:22.5 LGB forney and both will dwarf the HLW 1:24 forney ? 


Norman


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman- 

There are several that have said in print and on the Internets that the LGB Forney loco actually scales out to a larger scale than 1:22,5. For example: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/119035/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Many of their locos were hit with a rubber ruler including the first Stainz and their well-loved US Porters. 

G....wir sind gummi.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 03 Oct 2011 08:18 AM 
Norman- 

There are several that have said in print and on the Internets that the LGB Forney loco actually scales out to a larger scale than 1:22,5. For example: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/119035/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Many of their locos were hit with a rubber ruler including the first Stainz and their well-loved US Porters. 

G....wir sind gummi. 
Yep, it looks pretty clear that LGB probably based their Forney model on the "Eustis Engines"..Three "logging Forneys" originally built for the Eustis Railroad, another "Maine 2-footer"..
The Eustis was later folded into the SR&RL system, and Eustis 7, 8 and 9 (identical triplets) became SR&RL 20, 21 and 22:


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Somebody asked for views of LGB, HLW and Bachmann Forneys. I only have the HLW locomotive, but here are a couple of views of the HLW Forney. This locomotive is nominal 1:24 scale.



















Yours,
David Meashey


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Scott and Dave: 

Dave, HLW basically created a Porter version of a Forney. I bought one. My guess is the LGB version would dwarf the HLW version. 

Scott, is there a Porter Forney prototype similar to the HLW forney product? 


Norman


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman- 

The best bet would be the Kalmbach Porter book..... 

So it goes, so it goes (to quote Kurt V!!)


----------



## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe George Schreyer has documented the various types of Bachmann 4-6-0's on his site and I will stick to those descriptions which seem to match up with Barrys.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 05 Oct 2011 07:07 AM 
I believe George Schreyer has documented the various types of Bachmann 4-6-0's on his site and I will stick to those descriptions which seem to match up with Barrys. 




Actually they dont match up..George Schreyer says 6 generations..which is probably the original source for the "six generations" people have been saying for 10 years..
(I discussed that, and posted a quote from George's website, earlier in this thread..go up to my post dated: 01 Oct 2011 10:17 P) 
Barry disagrees with George and says only 5 generations..

Scot


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Somewhere I read that the Annie-reduex would be MSRP something around $500-600ish. This would have a street price around $350ish. The days of the $125 Annies are looong gone.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 05 Oct 2011 01:53 PM 
Somewhere I read that the Annie-reduex would be MSRP something around $500-600ish. This would have a street price around $350ish. The days of the $125 Annies are looong gone. 



hmm..I dont know..thats just as likely to be untrue as true..
if all they are doing is upgrading some gears, and a new front truck, I dont see any reason why they still wont be in the $150 range..

Scot


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I suspect a bit higher (like the Lyn and Indie) but not as high as the Spectrum locos.....everyone needs a "loss-leader" as a starter model/loco.


----------



## Therios (Sep 28, 2008)

I don't care what scale it is or what version or number generation they or anyone attaches to it. I like the features that I hear about and am looking forward to getting one myself. 

How do I KNOW that one that I pick up is the NEW one? Is there a telltale sign?


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Therios on 06 Oct 2011 11:26 AM 
I don't care what scale it is or what version or number generation they or anyone attaches to it. I like the features that I hear about and am looking forward to getting one myself. 

How do I KNOW that one that I pick up is the NEW one? Is there a telltale sign? Many previous generations can be identified by distinctive features on the undercarriage..
different humps for different gears and such..
and the Annie was very obvious by her metal rods and valve gear, very different from all previous generations..

Since the new one isnt out yet (Bachmann says "November") we dont yet know if there will be any
differences on the underside of the new Gen 7 vs. the Annie..
but Bachmann says the pilot truck will be new..so that will likely be an easy way to ID the new version..
there might be other external changes as well..we just dont know yet.

Scot


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The Indy and the Lyn both are almost twice the street price of thier first versions. The new gearbox is supposedly akin to a BBT upgrade (supposedly ) so I stand by my Criswellian Prediction that the new Annie or Gennie7 or whatever name, Big Hauler Whopie Machine, will be well over $300 street price. I hope they can keep the price point down . Time will tell.


----------



## dawgnabbit (Jan 2, 2008)

"IMO, its not even a question, its not even debatable..it simply is. "

Yeah, but when did facts ever end a rousing good debate?









Steve


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann has posted a few photos:

Photos on Bachmann forum


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06 Oct 2011 02:18 PM 
The Indy and the Lyn both are almost twice the street price of thier first versions. The new gearbox is supposedly akin to a BBT upgrade (supposedly ) so I stand by my Criswellian Prediction that the new Annie or Gennie7 or whatever name, Big Hauler Whopie Machine, will be well over $300 street price. I hope they can keep the price point down . Time will tell. 



I dont know about historic prices for the Lyn, but the 1st generation of the Indy sold for about $125..
Double that would be $250. 
current price for a 2nd generation Indy is $165.. 

Current Lyn price is $180..anyone know what the 1990's selling price for the Lyn was?


But current prices are not "almost twice the street price of thier first versions."..at least for the Indy..

not even close. 

Scot


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember the Indy was more like $75, I got mine for $60. Like I said time will tell, but the ghost of the Amazing Criswell has been pretty accurate to date on other things


----------



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Mr. Smith:

The INDY close out price at TrainWorld was 65.00 when Bachmann finally decided to dump the INDY due to poor sales as the loco was too light in weight to haul enough cars to satisfy the hobbyist.

The initial price at TrainWorld was around 165.00. 

The latest INDY has a diecast frame to solve the low weight problem.

Norman


----------



## Bucksco (Jan 4, 2008)

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,18210.0.html


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

anyone know what the 1990's selling price for the Lyn was 
Yup. $50 on clearance. My second one (still on the shelf in my wife's office) cost $100 as I didn't buy one at the cheap price. 

In the late 1990s, I mentioned they were still around to the guys at GRS-UK, and they asked 'how many'. Dan at Star Hobby found a distributor with quite a few left, and GRS bought the lot via Dan - almost 100, I think. They sold them in the UK along with 2 kits for their L&B coaches for 300 GBP - my calculation was that they were charging about $250 for each loco.


----------



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

FINALLY! 
after 12 years of ambiguity, we finally know what the Bachmann company themselves calls the various versions of the Big Hauler!
It was just posted over on the Bachmann forum, in the form of a photo from the box of the latest version.

To summarize..for the past 12 years there have been two schools of thought on the "generations" of the Big Hauler..

1. George Schrarer called the Annie "Generation 6" 10 years ago:
The 6th generation is the "10th Anniversary Edition" (aka "Annie") version"
Big Haluer Tips 

I first heard the Annie was "Gen 6" here on MLS ten years ago when I first bought an Annie, many people were saying that, and I have believed without question it ever since..
George initially thought the Annie had a different motor from the "Gen 5"..which it doesnt..so he was wrong about that.
But even so, I have always thought the Annie was "worthy" of being its own generation anyway, even if it shared the same
drivetrain with the Gen 5 Big Hauler, simply because the Annie had so many upgrades over the "Non-Annie" Gen 5.. 

So this school of thought said:

Gen 5 - latest "non-annie" Big Hauler..with plastic side rods.
Gen 6 - The Annie, 10th anniversry version, introduced in year 2000- same drivetrain as Gen 5, but greatly improved detail, metal rods, etc.
Gen 7 - The newest updated version, coming out right now, late 2011.


This made the most sense to me..but it was just an opinion..(as was the other theory) until today..when Bachmann proved it wrong..
The correct naming convention is this:

2. Other people in the hobby have been saying for the past 10 years that the Gen 5 *and* the Annie should both be considered Gen 5..
simply because they share the same drivetrain..this was also just an opinion, not based on anything other than"it sounds logical to me"..
but Bachmann had been silent on the issue..Today proof was offered that, finally, sets this all to rest! 
This theory ended up being the way Bachmann sees it as well..so the REAL Big Hauler progression is this:

*Generation 5 Big Hauler - with plastic side rods.
Generation 5 "Annie" Big Hauler - 10th anniversry version, introduced in year 2000- same drivetrain as Gen 5, but greatly improved detail, metal rods, etc.
Generation 6 "Annie" Big Hauler - Coming out right now, late 2011 - with "Metal drive gears and a new die-cast lead truck."*

So there it is! the Emperor (Bachmann) has spoken! 
still seems weird to me to have two radically different versions of Gen 5..but thats not up to me..
now we know! 


Scot


----------

