# Ruby boiler running dry



## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

Hi from a newbie.

I have a new Ruby and I have been running it in for a couple of days now and have found that contrary to the claim made in the instruction manual my boiler runs dry before the gas runs out.

I am following the instructions to the letter, ie only put in the recommende 80mL of water into the boiler, as this is my first attempt at live steam operation.

I have done a little research and looking at the accucraft website I noticed that the gas tank on my Ruby appears to be the same as the 'plantation locomotive' (AP-21703) and looks bigger than the one shown as being for the Ruby (AP-21702).

Ruby was advertised as having the new larger cylinders and when I was fitting a remote control kit I found that the throttle knob was considerably shorter than earlier models but that is another story.

My question is has anybody heard of other Rubys being similar to mine or have I gotten myself a hybrid machine with a bigger gas tank fitted?

If so do I just add extra water to stop me from drying out my boiler? I have fitted a goodall valve but as I have no idea how much water is left in the boiler after a run around my layout I am just guessing and do not want to overfill it.

Any suggestions will be more than welcome


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

Running dry, while not a good thing, will not be catastrophic as long as you 1. catch it fairly quickly and shut the gas off right away 2. never add more water to a mostly empty or dry hot boiler as you may cause a rush of steam that could damage boiler components. On small boilers they have been proven not to explode into fragments but you could still rupture one I suppose causing a loud hiss and of course damaging the boiler and possibly causing injury. If you have a pressure gauge then the rush of steam from adding water to a dry boiler could damage it as well if the safety can't keep up and the needle pegs. Running dry for a long time could also damage seals and gaskets as more heat transfers to metal parts. 

Ultimately you will learn when to add a few squirts to your goodall to keep the engine happy for the duration of a run. If they gave you a bigger gas tank I would say you got a nice deal because a little more fuel on board is not a bad thing. 

Over watering is not bad for the engine either. I have added so much water to my shay that it has squirted out of the safety (pop) valve. The engine won't run so great with that much water trying to go into the cylinders. but it usually clears out fairly quickly and you will be good to go. In my 10+ years of steaming ride on locos and gauge one I have never had an engine lock up from too much water. So for me I would just run like you have been doing but add 5 or 6 squirts to the goodall after ten minutes or so and see how that goes. Watch the pressure and performance-- if either drop and your fire is still going strong then you are running low on water and should drop the fire and let her cool down. Eventually you will be able to read all the signals your engine is giving you and respond appropriately. 

Regards,


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Running it dry won't hurt. Butane gas fire is not that hot. But, you want to learn how your engine operates and time the run to end with some water left. Over filling won't hurt it either. You will just get a shower of water out the stack until it settles down. Our Ruby works fine filling the boiler to the top and withdrawing 30ml. It is also easier to light if you fill the fuel all the way up, then open the gas valve a few seconds to drain some out.

It's practice.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

All these suggestions are fine but it still does not answer why the engine has a larger gas tank then others, thus causing it to run out of water before the fuel.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

So, is collapsing a boiler by running a boiler dry with butane fired engines just a myth then?


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## Hobbytechnologies (Jan 3, 2012)

I too recently got a Ruby! Santa brought me a Ruby kit. I spent Christmas day putting it together! I spoke to Cliff at Accucraft today and asked him a million questions! I asked him the same question you are asking... because I read the same instruction manual and it says the water should outlast the gas. He told me that was incorrect. Changes had been made a while back making that statement inaccurate. He told me to watch and listen the locomotive carefully. He said that you should turn off the fuel valve as soon as the engine stops. I have actually had the engine run out both ways. Sometimes the fuel goes out first and the engine continues to run on steam for a couple of minutes. You can hear the difference. When I run the engine at night I can dial back the flame a lot better because I can see it better. When I run it lean like that, I always run out of water first. 

He told me that this thing can get so hot that the paint will start to discolor and even come off. He told me NOT TO RUN THIS ENGINE DRY.

He told me to run 80ml water. He said the oil is good for 2 or 3 runs. Try to remove the water from the oiler. 

Do not overfill the water because it will slosh around in the tank and some water will get into the steam line which will cause the engine to run rough... when it runs rough, it will slosh more water... 

I hope this helps! I am learning more and more everyday.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 03 Jan 2012 06:52 PM 
So, is collapsing a boiler by running a boiler dry with butane fired engines just a myth then? 
Hi Jeremiah,
I would say that it is NOT a myth.
I understand that some Aster K4's had their flues collapse. 
However, it does depend on the boiler design, materials used, how hot the burner flame is, and of course the operator.
From what I have been told, if the flue is long enough, and the copper thin enough, then if the boiler should run dry, and the burner still on full, then the flue will get very hot.
Since the copper is possibly already annealed from the silver soldering during production, should water now be pumped into the boiler it will flash into steam and expand so fast that the pressure inside the boiler 'could' cause the flue to collapse. 
I have personally not seen it happen, but it is certainly not a myth, but perhaps boiler design is better today, so it doesn't happen anymore.
I would imagine with a Ruby, since the boiler is relatively short, the flue is probably quite tough enough, but better safe than sorry.
Try not to ever run a boiler dry.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

The newer Ruby # 5 "Porter " and Plantation models have a round gas tank while the earlier Ruby , Mimi models were fitted with a square tank. The volume of the new tank is slightly more. I find that the Porter will run out of water if not topped up through the Goodall valve. After ten minutes of running I add 12 pumps of water from the Accucraft pump bottle , then 12 more at the twenty minute point . I haven't run out of water this way . I have gotten runs of 28 minutes on the Porter on a nice day before it runs out of gas . 

The new tanks are not as good as the previous tanks, they only have a single fixing screw instead of two screws. It iis very easy to strip the screw when tightening the nut onto the tank , be careful . ( Voice of experience speaking !! ) My tank kept turning left or right when I tried to adjust the gas flow and wouldn't stay put. Blue Loctite on the bottom of the tank to the panel fixed that. 

Charles M SA # 74


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

True enough, have seen several cases to a couple of different engines of manufacturers.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I collapsed a flue tube on my old Frank-S, probably from running low on water, more than once. I did have a couple hundred hours on the boiler at the time.
My Regner Willi goes through about three boilers full of water per tank of fuel. Luckily the water gauge works very well, but that makes the water filler add-on system a must have.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for the info. Hope I always remain alert so as never to take a chance of collapsing a flue.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

I was going to post a link to the "Joint Design Tests for Sub Minature Boilers" paper wrtten by Paul Trevaskis but the website (http://sgcox.site.net.au/ritg/boiler-tests.pdf) seems to be down. I do however, have a copy in full of the pdf and will post it here (hopefull this will not be an infraction of any internet etiquette). It's great reading and it seems like our copper boilers will withstand pressures in the neigborhood of 900 - 1000 psi (or more!) before failing. Usually the flues collapse long before the boiler fails, I will let you to draw your own conclusion as to what this means to operations in a non test (normal running) environment. These boilers are of different design and manufacturing styles. 


http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/se...-tests.pdf


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Posted By Steve S. on 03 Jan 2012 06:41 PM 
All these suggestions are fine but it still does not answer why the engine has a larger gas tank then others, thus causing it to run out of water before the fuel. 
I think that the old square tank might have been a larger volume, but even if it was not, I think it comes down to operator differences. Some fellows leave the burner up very high for the entire run. Steam will belch out the safety the entire time and the smoke box will discolor with all the wasted heat being passed though it. I like to run my burner as low as I can, so that I keep good pressure but barely blow the safety. This is often barely cracked open, and leads to lots of burn time if I just add some water to the boiler once in a while.

My ruby is about a year and a half old. It has the new round tank and 1/2 inch cylinders. It seems to be much more tame than the older Ruby's I see. There are lots of good pictures in this earlier Thread:


http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/120405/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I can confirm that boilers with heat recovery tubes in the firebox canl fail. I recently saw a Regner Vincent with leaks at the top of the innermost tube and small drops of silvery metal below the leak after running dry. That first tube is maybe 1/2" beyond the tip of the burner. Regners do use brass instead of copper boilers. Now wonder what they use to braise / solder them? Hope my Willi doesn't have similar construction. Harder to see exactly what is inside it's vertical boiler.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

All these suggestions are fine but it still does not answer why the engine has a larger gas tank then others, thus causing it to run out of water before the fuel. 
Lots of useful info, but the basic answer is that all Rubys, and most other Accucraft locos, will run out of water before they run out of gas. I don't know where Batsco got the idea that it was the other way around.


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## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

Lots of useful info, but the basic answer is that all Rubys, and most other Accucraft locos, will run out of water before they run out of gas. I don't know where Batsco got the idea that it was the other way around. 

I got the idea from the instruction manual that came with the loco,last paragraph on the bottom of page 7. 

Quote; "RUBY is designed to run out of fuel before running out of water, thus preventing damage to the boiler. Care should be taken never to run the boiler dry"; End Quote. 

This manual is also available on Accucraft's website under manuals. 

Graeme Price 
Nowra NSW 
Australia


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 04 Jan 2012 05:58 AM 
Thanks for the info. Hope I always remain alert so as never to take a chance of collapsing a flue. 
Jeremiah,
If you stick with alcohol, then you are safe.
No water = no pressure = no draft = little heat!
Also alcohol boilers will have smaller diameter flues, which are less likely to collapse anyway. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The old Rubys had a smaller tank and did run out of gas bufore water if you filled the boiler to MFG specs. 
I don't know about the new rubies but my Forney has a slightly larger boiler and a larger fuel tank. 
They increased the size of the fuel tank a higher percentage than the boiler so now the run-out sequence is reversed. 
I guess they didn't change the ops manual to account for this change. 
Personally, I am a lazy steamer and would rather have it run out of fuel. 
Watch your gauge. If you don't have one, shut down the fuel as soon as it starts to slow down toward the end of the run and you should be ok


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Also the 1/2 inch cylinder conversion lowered water consumption on the earlier Rubys, at least in my experience. It would figure that this would also be true of the factory 1/2 inch cylinders. 
Larry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess they didn't change the ops manual to account for this change. 
I don't think Accucraft have changed their manuals for years. We've complained often that they are way out of date and too general. 

That being said, if they did originally have a small enough gas tank that it would run out first [a very desirable feature in a 'starter' loco,] then changing the tank and NOT changing the manual is a serious issue. 

Cliff - you reading this ?


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 05 Jan 2012 08:29 AM 
I guess they didn't change the ops manual to account for this change. 
I don't think Accucraft have changed their manuals for years. We've complained often that they are way out of date and too general. 

That being said, if they did originally have a small enough gas tank that it would run out first [a very desirable feature in a 'starter' loco,] then changing the tank and NOT changing the manual is a serious issue. 

Cliff - you reading this ? 
Yes, My manual shows the square tank even though mine is round !


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Seems to me as a newby to the joys and trials of live steam operation, that this is a very BAD design! Sounds to me like it would be VERY easy for a careless guy like me to destroy a boiler! 

Ed


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Would it be possible to only put in a small amount of butane until one is familiar with the running of the locomotive? I do this with my mikado and while i understand putting in less fuel when it is in liquid form and you can see it pour versus using a pressurized can be very different, I think it would still be possible. No?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Your best bet is to buy and install a Goodall valve - then inject a little additional water into the boiler every few laps. Additionally, Bill Ford is once again making a limited run of his *Water Level Detection System* is you want a visual indication of low water.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

Ed, 

To say it is BAD design (in all caps) is a bit extreme. There are so many external factors that govern if a particular loco will run out of fuel before water. You as the steam locomotive engineer need to learn the indications of a boiler running low on water IMHO. And ,let's be honest, they are pretty obvious. I mean for me it goes like this: Hey loco is slowing down or stopped and fire is still going, maybe I'm out of water, I'd better shut the fire. It's just that simple. If you can't master that then, no offense, but sparkies may be better for you. 

For you to destroy a boiler, just like on a full size engine, a lot of things would have to go wrong. Here is a worst case scenario for a simple single flue boiler like a Ruby: 

1. Engine stops running due to lack of water and engineer does not notice it. 
2. Exposed flue becomes very hot due to little or no water. 
3. The engineer notices something wrong and instead of shutting the fire he adds water through a goodall or check valve. 
4. Resulting steam rush from water hitting the exposed flue exceeds the ability of the safety valve to vent it. 
5. Boiler failure; the flue collapses or a tube sheet seam ruptures. 
6. You call Cliff at Accucraft and ask how much a new boiler will cost ;-) 

As you can see, just like in full size accidents, there has to be a "perfect storm" of many things going wrong to result in a catastrophe. The other thing to consider is that accucraft boilers are pretty darn beefy. They use 1mm wall copper for the flue and 2mm copper for the shell and tube sheets. These are specs that Charlie Chen put in place on the first Rubys over ten years ago. You would have a hard time generating enough pressure to collapse the flue in one-- even if you did all the things wrong as in my above scenario. 

Have fun and keep steaming.... 

Regards,


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Eric, thanks for the tutorial. As I said in my post, I am very much a neophyte when it comes to running a live steam engine. Not having experienced this condition myself, nor witnessed it, I was under the impression that it was much more serious a condition than it obviously is. Thanks for setting me straight. 

Ed


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems to me as a newby to the joys and trials of live steam operation, that this is a very BAD design 
Well, they should at least fix the manual! 

accucraft boilers are pretty darn beefy 
I can attest to that. The EBT #12 mikado has two flues and they are fairly high, as I discovered when it was working hard at Rog's. I let the water get very low - low enough to expose the flues. How do I know? Well, I pumped some water in the boiler, there was a hiss and the safety valve blew a load of steam out!! When the water you are injecting blows out the safeties, I think you can assume something in there is getting hot.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, not a live steamer, but curious: What is a goodal valve? 

Robert


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

This is a water filler plug that replaces the factory water plug. 
The Goodall valve allows the operator to add water to the boiler while the locomotive is under steam. 
This allows for longer runs, and keeps an ample supply of water in the boiler at all times.


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## Batsco (Mar 30, 2011)

Posted By Charles M on 03 Jan 2012 10:54 PM 
The newer Ruby # 5 "Porter " and Plantation models have a round gas tank while the earlier Ruby , Mimi models were fitted with a square tank. The volume of the new tank is slightly more. I find that the Porter will run out of water if not topped up through the Goodall valve. After ten minutes of running I add 12 pumps of water from the Accucraft pump bottle , then 12 more at the twenty minute point . I haven't run out of water this way . I have gotten runs of 28 minutes on the Porter on a nice day before it runs out of gas . 

The new tanks are not as good as the previous tanks, they only have a single fixing screw instead of two screws. It iis very easy to strip the screw when tightening the nut onto the tank , be careful . ( Voice of experience speaking !! ) My tank kept turning left or right when I tried to adjust the gas flow and wouldn't stay put. Blue Loctite on the bottom of the tank to the panel fixed that. 

Charles M SA # 74 


I have done some further testing and found that with my bottle 10 pumps = 12 mL I ran my Ruby twice around my layout then added 20 pumps via the Goodall valve I did this 3 times and then it stopped running. 


I checked it after it had cooled and found that still had some water left in the boiler but not enough to cover the flue and there was still gas in the tank albeit not very much.

All the steam oil nearly had gone so looks like I will be adding 20 pumps per lap and checking the steam oil. 


Incidentally is the steam oil under any pressure in the lubricator? I really don't want a bath in hot oil if I open the lubricator lid eg like opening a hot radiator.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Posted By Batsco on 20 Jan 2012 11:15 PM Incidentally is the steam oil under any pressure in the lubricator? I really don't want a bath in hot oil if I open the lubricator lid eg like opening a hot radiator. 

* YES!* Do not take the cap off before releasing all the pressure. Let it cool or run out the pressure with the fire off. It will most likeley spray steam in your face if you take off the cap while under pressure. The opening is in the top where the steam line connects to the side. This means it does not have to rise up through the oil/water spraying it out, but you will get a nice steam shower and it may take a bit of oil from the top with it.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

You need a water botle with a bigger piston. Or keep the one you have and alternate from left to right hand to build up you grip.


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## bfindus (Aug 17, 2008)

Many Ruby owners have installed the WLDS system to monitor when the water level is low so that the loco can be stopped., water added through a Goodall valve, and the boiler saved from damage. For further info see [email protected] url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah, 
If you stick with alcohol, then you are safe. 


Famous last words.









I've seen a lot more alcohol locos (and their surroundings) go up in flames than all the butane fired problems combined! 

Keith


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Keith, 
It would seem user error can be accounted for many a mess with our little engines and the big ones. 

However, I would venture the engines using alcohol were still serviceable as compared to the butane fired issues. what would you say?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes user error is 99% of the time responsible for issues with any fuel. 
I guess it depends on how you define "serviceable". Most of the fire damage done by alcohol issues are to things other than the loco (except maybe the paint!), whereas the butane could potentially damage the boiler, though I believe this is extremely rare. 

Keith


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah, I always try and take extra precautions with where I fuel and what is on the track, but even being careful sometimes things can go wrong in a hurry. That and the fact that when you have an alcohol fire and realize it, the damage is usually done due to the nearly invisible flames. Pros and cons to both fuel types for sure.


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

I have a Gen 2 Ruby with the round gas tank. I must either be a) using too much gas or b) running on a level track but I've never had the gas tank out last the water on my Ruby ever. I have a goodall valve just in case but never used it.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

My first Ruby had a rectangular tank which seems to be just about right, I seldom run out of water first and usually don't have much water left. it was a 2005 vintage kit. 
the second which I got used was a Red #2 Ruby, it had a short round tank which needed re-filling once steam was up but would then run fine ... I don't think we have run out of water first with that one even with the refuel trick. 
the third was a Porter style with a tall round tank is like the first and seems to run just the right length of time. 
The latest is a kit purchased in January has a tall tank of smaller diameter ... havnt run it as I am planning to coal fire it. starting the boiler soon.


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