# Phoenix sound cards for SD70MAC by USAT



## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

I bought two phoenix sound cards for my pairs of SD70MAC for few years. Recently, I could have free time to installing them into my locos. I knew that the phoenix sound cards had no decorders for DCC functions. Anyone could advise the best decorder for phoenix sound cards ? Thank you very much.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You could use a NCE decoder. I have done several locos using them and the Phoenix boards. Later RJD


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The better way to go is to switch over to an integrated decoder (DCC + sound) in one board. The controls of the sounds are much better and line up better with the engine movement. You can sell you Phoenix on Ebay and get for the same price TrueSound DCC from ZIMO. In addition you can if you like add load dependant smoke.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

You can use your normal DCC decoder of choice, the Phoenix just piggy backs of it. 

Alan


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

A Phoenix sound system requires no other decoder.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike, 

Assuming TonyLou wants to run his locos on DCC (its posted in the DCC forum), he's going to need another DCC decoder to run the motor and lights.

We may need to wait for TonyLou to clarify this. His original question also could be read "I have a phoenix board, and I want to use the DCC functions (eg horn) do I need another decoder?" In this case your right Mike, no another decoder is not required.

Alan


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Correct, the only reference was to sound.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As I mentioned he is asking about using a decoder to operate the loco. He has the sound so now all you need to do is hook up the Phoenix board to the NCE board and your good to go. Cheap and easy as Long as he has the Phoenix board already. This system works fine for Diesels. So your additional expense for the NCE is around $50 versus $200 for a Zimo decoder. RJD Later RJD


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Thank you very much for your great help. I would like to confirm that I had Phoenix sound cards which I had installed on my SD70MAC. I want to running SD70MAC with DCC control of sound and motor. So, my locos should be pickup track power for all. Unfortunately, my DCC control (NCE) could control the sound but couldn't control the motor. If I switch on the motor under DCC control, the motor had some sound which look like burnt out, NOT MOVE ! Then, I asked my friend that I need a decorder for motor. If not, the motor will be damaged.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

aceinspp, It sounds like Tony is new at this. And you saying that all he needs to do is hook the NCE to the sound card is a bit misleading. Hooking up a NCE decoder to a USA Locomotive for proper DCC control is quite a job. Greg has talked about a quick down and dirty install, that will give DCC control with out constant lights. I would recomend this for a newbe.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, you came on chat a number of times, come back in and we can go over it, even taking you step by step on chat while you do it... 

The phoenix decoder is sound only, so you need a decoder for your motor, and the lights. 

If you get 2 sets of the "JST" style connector (that matches the connectors inside your SD70) the addition of a motor decoder can be done in about 5 minutes. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The better way to go is to switch over to an integrated decoder (DCC + sound) in one board. The controls of the sounds are much better and line up better with the engine movement. 
I'm not sure I'd agree that it is "better" to go over to an integrated sound/control decoder. I've been using the Airwire/Phoenix combination and the response it has to what the locomotive is doing seems to be every bit as good as what I've heard from QSI. (I've not heard the Zimo board.) I'd certainly not describe it as "lacking" in any way. The Phoenix gives you directional whistles when starting and stopping, brake squeal, release, "load sensitive" (based on acceleration and deceleration) chuff.. a good amount of interaction between what the motor is doing and what the sound board does in response. 

It's not my intention to start a debate on which sound system is better, but if Tony already has the Phoenix systems, I think it only fair to give him the confidence that he does indeed have a very full-featured system that will not leave him wanting. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, the response to actual load is quite different than just changing by DCC speed step or DC voltage. 

Frankly Kevin, I'm surprised that you do not hear the difference, and frankly, have not taken the time to do so, since you write reviews in GR. 

I know if I had you hostage (ha ha) in my back yard you would hear the difference (or else ha ha ha!) 

I know your preference is automated sounds, but please do not let your personal preferences obscure your understanding of more sophisticated features. 

In my experience, once people hear the variation in the "bark" of the exhaust, and hear how the loco goes almost silent when drifting, like the REAL locomotive, they are hooked. 

You can hear and appreciate these effects even with a limited range of hearing, i.e. it's not frequency range, it's the complexity and adherence to a REAL locomotive. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Please take the admonitions in a friendly way! 

p.p.s I'm not saying that one is better, but sound systems "electronically" integrated with the motor controller add another dimension that the Phoenix can only hope to approximate.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, that's just the curious thing. When Phoenix sent me their PB9 for review, they sent it pre-programmed, as a consumer would order it from a dealer or from them. For whatever reason, the way they had the board set up didn't have much--if any--variation in chuff cadence. When I reviewed the QSI board, I was quite impressed with its integration with the motor, and the drifting sounds that you mention. The programming software made it easy to set the board up so you get that drifting effect you so rightly extoll. I love the effect. That led me to believe there was definitely something to be said for having motor/sound integration. Certainly it makes sense that it would have the potential for huge advantages, and I'm still inclined to believe that at some level. (Phoenix did not furnish their programming software for the review as QSI did, so I couldn't "play" with the Phoenix sounds to the same extent for the review.) 

A few months ago, I finally got around to buying Phoenix's programming software because I was doing an install on one of my dad's locos and I wanted to fully customize the sounds to match. I wiped the existing sound files on two Phoenix boards (a P8 and PB9), and began playing around with the settings on two new files. In the process, I got the Phoenix programmed to be right on par with the QSI in terms of those kinds of functions. I lower the throttle, the chuff fades away nicely, drifting almost silently to a complete stop, the only sounds being the quiet hiss of the loco and clanking of the rods. When I open the throttle, it starts barking like a dog. It's proven very interactive with the motor settings. Maybe Phoenix _is_ only "approximating" what QSI can do, but to my ears they're doing a darned good job of it. I'm not saying they're "better," just that I don't think the integration of sound and throttle is as advantageous as one might be led to believe. 

Later, 

K


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Greg and all, 
Tony and I intented to change all of our locomotives from DC to DCC control , and we are choosing NCE control system, Basically, I can install the decoder by myself, but I have some questions and want to get some response from you. 
I have a USAT Hudson and factory Phoenix sound installed, if I install a NCE D808 decoder on it to control the motor and lights , how I can to control the somking system? Even though I have gone through the D808 decoder manual and can't find any answer on it. 
If I want to program the Phoenix sound card address, do I need to purchase a Phoenix sound library CD via PC programing or I can program it by my NCE throttle? Thanks in advance for your help. 

Gary To


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin: 

Yes, the Phoenix is only approximating what the QSI does. The difference is that at a constant speed (or voltage in DC mode), going uphill or downhill, the QSI will go changing to "bark" up the hills, and "drift" down the hills. 

The Phoenix will not change. It can ONLY change by speed variation. 

The difference is basically not noticeable on a level layout, which I believe yours is. It's really noticeable on grades, or with heavy loads. 

This is because the QSI, like the Massoth, ESU, Zimo, "reads" the actual load on the motor (via back emf voltage) and adjusts the sounds accordingly. 

Since the Phoenix is not powering the motor, it cannot "read" the load, so it must rely only on the current speed and it can be "smart" in realizing the loco is accelerating or decelerating. 

So, if you were at my house, and we had 2 trains running, one with Phoenix, and one with QSI, you would hear a big difference in how they reacted as each loco attacked my 3.4% grade! Likewise I have a steep downgrade, and the QSI just drifts down it, the Phoenix still makes sounds at constant speed. 

Also, if you are wanting to experiment with the QSI to hear this better, remember that the momentum settings, CV3 and CV4 have a large part to do with the change in sounds. Many people leave these at zero, and they are missing a lot of the effects. 

CV3 and CV4 basically simulate the "mass" of the train (I know you know this Kevin, explanation is for others). 

At the end of the day, not everyone notices the difference at first. But, like when you finally hear a really good stereo system, after you have heard the difference, you are usually "spoiled"! 


Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary: 

I think you have a little confusion on some basics, so I'll try to clarify that first, then answer your question. If you already know all of this, please do not be insulted. 

In DCC, "programming" can be ambiguous. Any DCC system will allow you to change parameters in the decoders (sound or motor or combination) called CV's (configuration variables) 

These change the characteristics, like starting speed, momentum, volume levels, etc. 

But in sound decoders, there are often things that can be programmed or changed that are unique to that product, and cannot be done with CV's. 

In the Phoenix, changing the sound file and many sound items requires a separate programmer, a special piece of hardware and a special piece of software running on your computer. 

You can have 2 or more decoders in the same loco. 

If you have a way to "isolate" them during programming, you can do your programming from the rails. 

In a simple example, you could put a on-off switch on one track pickup wire of EACH decoder. 

So, you add another decoder to the loco, and wire it to the track pickups, the motor and lights and smoke unit. You leave the phoenix as it is, connected to the track pickups. 

You set each decoder to the same address. Now when you give a speed command, the motor decoder responds. When you ring the bell, the sound decoder responds. 

There are several different ways to do this too, but this is usually the most straightforward. The other methods involve "decoder lock" or consisting. 

To program either decoder, you turn off the other decoder, and use either your DCC system to program CVs or the special programmer for the Phoenix. 

I hope this helps some. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Convinced that there _has_ to be some tangible benefit of a combined sound/throttle board that I'm missing, I set out to reprogram the QSI the other night to try to see what I could improve. I'm still not hearing it. 

Simulating load changes on the motor makes no noticeable change in the chuff volume as it goes from no load to full load, though I _do_ hear it when the throttle setting is changed. (Though curiously I can't get the ultra-quiet drifting that I had before "fiddling," despite having the minimum sound of power scale factor set to 3, which by my reading of the manual would mean "really flippin' quiet." It gets quieter, but doesn't go away as it had previously.) This behavior is the same whether I'm on standard or regulated throttle control. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard the chuff change under load without me changing the throttle, and my grades and curves do affect the speed to where a loco speeds up and slows down noticeably when it hits them, especially my 5' radius curve. It really slows a train down. I've only ever heard it change with changes to the throttle. I'm open to suggestions as to what I may be overlooking, because that's precisely the kind of integrated feedback you'd _expect_ from a sound/throttle combination. 

Interestingly, I _do_ hear the chuff automatically change volume with response to load (grade or curve-induced) with the Airwire G-2/Phoenix combination when running with "cruise control" on. I suspect that's because the cruise control is adjusting the voltage to keep the speed constant as the load changes, hence the change in chuff as the voltage increases and decreases. When not in cruise control, the chuff remains fairly constant as Greg describes, unless I change the throttle to compensate for changes in speed. In fairness to the discussion at hand, it's the G-2 decoder's functionality that bolsters the Phoenix's performance in that regard; not all decoders have a similar "cruise control" feature. 

In either case, the advantage of using momentum is that you can crank the throttle one way or the other to affect the chuff, and not really have that great an affect on the speed as it takes a while to "catch up." It's a neat dynamic to play with. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm basically speechless. 

I'm contacting you by private email. 

Anyone who doubts what I say, contact me, or come by my house, I'll be happy to demonstrate. 

Greg


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Feb 2011 11:57 AM 
Gary: 

I think you have a little confusion on some basics, so I'll try to clarify that first, then answer your question. If you already know all of this, please do not be insulted. 

In DCC, "programming" can be ambiguous. Any DCC system will allow you to change parameters in the decoders (sound or motor or combination) called CV's (configuration variables) 

These change the characteristics, like starting speed, momentum, volume levels, etc. 

But in sound decoders, there are often things that can be programmed or changed that are unique to that product, and cannot be done with CV's. 

In the Phoenix, changing the sound file and many sound items requires a separate programmer, a special piece of hardware and a special piece of software running on your computer. 

You can have 2 or more decoders in the same loco. 

If you have a way to "isolate" them during programming, you can do your programming from the rails. 

In a simple example, you could put a on-off switch on one track pickup wire of EACH decoder. 

So, you add another decoder to the loco, and wire it to the track pickups, the motor and lights and smoke unit. You leave the phoenix as it is, connected to the track pickups. 

You set each decoder to the same address. Now when you give a speed command, the motor decoder responds. When you ring the bell, the sound decoder responds. 

There are several different ways to do this too, but this is usually the most straightforward. The other methods involve "decoder lock" or consisting. 

To program either decoder, you turn off the other decoder, and use either your DCC system to program CVs or the special programmer for the Phoenix. 

I hope this helps some. 

Greg 



Hi Greg,
Thanks for the reply, before I run DCC, I have visited your web site and learn some DCC knowledge from there, basically, I will programed the 2 decoder ( sound and DCC) in same address, I had read some post in this DCC forum before, someone said if you want to program the Phoenix sound decorer address, you need to buy a Phoenix computer interface CD-ROM and program it via PC, I want to clarify this, hope can help.
Gary


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary, I believe you can set the DCC address "normally", with a DCC system, by using the programming track, and setting long or short addresses like any other DCC decoder. 

You should not have to buy the Phoenix programmer unless you want to change sounds, or I believe reassign which function key does what sound. 

In all probability, you will eventually want to do this some time in the future. 

But for now, you can set up the address with any DCC system. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, I'll respond to your e-mail in time. (I've really got to figure out where to begin, because I cannot for the life of me fathom how you've drawn the conclusions you've drawn.) 

Anyway, perhaps you missed this point in my post... 

"I'm open to suggestions as to what I may be overlooking, because that's precisely the kind of integrated feedback you'd expect from a sound/throttle combination. " 

In other words, I have every expecation that what you say is true and zero reason do doubt it, and am perplexed by the fact that mine does not seem to be doing it. Most linguists would consider the phrase "I'm open to suggestions..." as an invitation for assistance to solve a problem. 

I'll be glad to furnish you my CV Manager file so you can see what my CVs are set at, and perhaps see if you may find out what's not quite kosher. I don't know if it's just the particular sound file I'm using, perhaps something not set right in via the sound manager software, or what. But what I wrote is the absolute reality. I get variations in the volume of the chuff when I change the throttle, but not when a load is introduced on the loco by adding or relaxing drag on the drivers. Every other aspect works 100% as advertised. Why would I post that if I wasn't motivated by trying to find a solution? Why would I experiment with the QSI programmer to try to further improve the performance if I wasn't interested in getting the absolute most out of what I consider to be a fantastic product? I'm as anxious for the next generation decoder as anyone, as I've got just the project for it--small space with barely enough room for it and the batteries. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, if I am dead wrong, then delete it and let's solve the problem via email. I am delighted to be wrong in this case. More than delighted. 

Do a full reset on the decoder first. Set CV3 to 20 and CV4 to 10. See how it sounds. One test is to block a moving loco and listen to the chuffs get louder. 

Then get going about 60 (128 ss) and then cut the throttle way back quickly, you should only hear the rod clank. 

Maybe you have really old firmware, how about reading the version and letting me know. 

Regards, Greg 

Regards, Greg


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## Gary To (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Feb 2011 06:46 PM 
Gary, I believe you can set the DCC address "normally", with a DCC system, by using the programming track, and setting long or short addresses like any other DCC decoder. 

You should not have to buy the Phoenix programmer unless you want to change sounds, or I believe reassign which function key does what sound. 

In all probability, you will eventually want to do this some time in the future. 

But for now, you can set up the address with any DCC system. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,
Roger!!!! Thank you

Gary


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

I just purchased a USA SD MAC Katy Heritage. I have Phoenix sound boards an am Planning on only running on our DC track at Mall. Could someone post or private me wwith instructon for insalling Phoeni.
I have installed in past in LGB moguls but not in diesel. Any help would be appreciated.
Okay for you steam guys , which I am one. We do have second lives for the little guys at the mall.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Start with the phoenix manual... all you need is to hook it to the track pickups, and to the speaker. The phoenix instructions should be sufficient. 

If you have trouble identifying which wires are the track pickups, take a picture of the opened loco and we will point them out for you. 

Regards, Greg


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So, just to clarify things, what will it take as a third party device to get a Phoenix sound card to respond to motor loads, not just input changes? And this is asked in the realm of battery power only situations...? 

THX - Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The Phoenix card can be made to simulate an engine under load by pressing a key. But as far as I know it can't sense the BEMF (the current the motor itself generates as it spins). That's how all the other DCC sound decoders alter sounds in response to load on the motor. So there's no way for the Phoenix card to respond to load, except by manually triggering the effect. 

In my opinion, this is a major defect of the Phoenix card, but some people see it as a feature. I suppose if you have the Phoenix programmer, you could use a track magnet to trigger the effect of load, say at the base of a grade, with a second magnet to turn it off at the crest


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike is correct, it cannot sense motor load.. mainly because it is not even connected to the motor in a way it could sense BEMF... it would have to be driving the motor and have that circuitry to do that. 

Other decoders can sense motor load, but now you want battery power, wireless remote and motor load. You pretty much have to get a QSI... some of the other brands say they can use the DCC remote directly to the loco, think it's the Zimo or the Massoth. 

Greg


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