# Watch out, 1:29 folks....



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

News Flash:
Kader Industries (owner of Bachmann) has just been given clearance to purchase Sanda Kan (make Aristo and USA stuff, among others).

"An agreement has been reached allowing model railroad manufacturer Kader Manufacturing Trust to purchase Sanda Kan Industrial, according to industry sources.

Hong-Kong headquartered Kader owns the Bachmann, Williams, Bachmann Branchline, Graham Farish, Liliput and Bachmann China brands and manufactures products for them at its facility in China's Guandong province. Sanda Kan, also based in Hong Kong, manufactures model trains and accessories at several facilities in mainland China and has made items for Athearn, Atlas, Hornby, Life-Like, Lionel, Marklin, and Walthers, among others.

According to industry sources, Kader views the acquisition more as a merger of the two companies, with Sanda Kan operating as a separate entity and retaining its current management."


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a direct link to the release: 

http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=1214


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann's wiring with Aristo's gearboxes and wheels...now there's a match made in heaven. God help us.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

There goes the neighbor hood.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, one part of the press release/trains story doesn't make any sense: "Kader views the acquisition more as a merger of the two companies, with Sanda Kan operating as a separate entity and retaining its current management." If Sanda Kan is going to retain current management and operate as a separate entity (probably a wholly-owned sub), than the deal is definitely not "more" of a merger/consolidation. In a merger, the target loses its identity and is subsumed into the buyer.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jlinde on 11/14/2008 3:07 PM
Well, one part of the press release/trains story doesn't make any sense: "Kader views the acquisition more as a merger of the two companies, with Sanda Kan operating as a separate entity and retaining its current management." If Sanda Kan is going to retain current management and operate as a separate entity (probably a wholly-owned sub), than the deal is definitely not "more" of a merger/consolidation. In a merger, the target loses its identity and is subsumed into the buyer. 




Looks like a bit of "spin" to me.
The merger leaves exactly how many producers of quality made scale model trains?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The merger leaves exactly how many producers of quality made scale model trains?


The exact same number as before the merger.









Keith


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like mass confusion and who suffers. Joe public. Later RJD


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a merger of the two companies


I would assume the original press release was in Chinese, so the meaning may not have survived the translation!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 11/14/2008 3:13 PM
The merger leaves exactly how many producers of quality made scale model trains?


The exact same number as before the merger.









Keith 

If you believe that I have a big bridge in Sydney I could sell you.

I had better re-phrase that as I cannot imagine Bachmann allowing their "merged" acquisitions to carry on doing whatever they want without any supervision from HO. 

So, how many independent entities will there be producing scale model trains?


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## GaryY (Jan 2, 2008)

Lewis Polk is pleased with it according to his comments on the Aristo-Craft forum

Gary


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, this could potentially be good for Bachmann fans in an ENTIRELY different light - maybe now Bachmann might include something other their existing rust-prone







steel track in their complete Large-Scale train sets!







Who knows- maybe we might see a line of "Spectrum" *high-quality *track & turnouts develop!







(Of course, this could just be "wishful thinking" on my part, too!







). Tom


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Tony, I think you may have missed my point. The reason I said the count of quality producers wouldn't change following the merger is because I didn't think these two would have been counted in the first place! 

As for your revised question, I think they'll keep them independent...just that the price fixing will all be internalized now.
Geez I'm getting cynical in my old age.

Keith


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 11/14/2008 4:35 PM
Hey Tony, I think you may have missed my point. The reason I said the count of quality producers wouldn't change following the merger is because I didn't think these two would have been counted in the first place! 

As for your revised question, I think they'll keep them independent...just that the price fixing will all be internalized now.
Geez I'm getting cynical in my old age.

Keith 






I think everyone got your point. Did someone beat you over the head with a RS-3 or something?









-Brian


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith I did say quality model trains. I did not say quality * Large Scale * model trains. 

The Chinese can make really high quality stuff if the importers are prepared to pay for it.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2008)

*Doom comes to mind....... can get what they want for the stuff now*
*As for Bmann with different track in the box you got to be joking! If they was to add real track cost goes up!!!! And the prices are were now?*
*Toad*


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

No, I'm going to have to disagree. Bachmann has needed to get rid of that cheap, tin-plate, crappy track for over a decade! Ever since they produced a _Spectrum_ locomotive that was incapable of running on their track they have given the nod to LGB and Aristo/USA solid brass track. I actually hope they _do_ substitute brass track for that tin-plate junk! Even if the price goes up it would be worth it in the long run!


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Who suffers..don't you mean "Joe the Plumber"?

Bubba


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

COULD Bmann supply us with spare parts first bevore they start mods to their#$%^& Y Track??? 

#1313 Lotsasteam(only in spring #summer)


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Ha ha! Sorry Brian. No, it wasn't an RS-3, it was one too many wiring crows nests, and one too many old Pacific gearboxes. I've got hair thin wire and end-play burned into my mind forever.  


Keith


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## Bob Vaughn (Jan 5, 2008)

Lewis, at Aristo said today that that was a marriage made in heaven....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I would say that no matter what the end result of the purchase is, if Aristo has something in stock you have been thinking about, buy it now, also parts! 

Whatever the long term results will be, the short term will be disruption of the Aristo production. 

When Sanda Kan moved to a new factory, we were without stuff for a while, and new production problems surfaced, like more coupler failures, assembly errors, etc. 

Here's a point that I think many have missed: 

Aristo was the "big fish" to Sanda Kan, obviously their largest customer. When you are an important customer, you have more pull. 

Aristo will be a distant 2nd 3rd or 4th to Kader, Bachmann makes a lot more than Aristo. So, whatever "pull" Aristo had, will be much less. 

The reason I talk about "pull" is that I equate it with getting things fixed or working right at the factory. Most errors seem to only be discovered AFTER the first production run is already here in the US and being sold. (I'm sure I do not need to provide examples). 

So, the "manufacturer", be it Bachmann, Aristo, USAT, etc. has to get things fixed AFTER the product is shipped and more importantly, China has been PAID. 

I'm of the personal opinion that many of the quality issues are because the "manufacturers" do not have THEIR representatives at the end of the assembly line looking at the first few off the line. (and of course more upstream work with prototypes). 

I'm sure it will settle down eventually, but I'm buying parts and locos now. 

Regards, Greg


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Hey Greg, 

Do you feel there is an opportunity for a new company to start producing large scale trains? Seems like with a lack of real competition and the consistent quality issues I keep hearing about that someone would step up and create a better product. What gives?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Bob Vaughn on 11/15/2008 5:38 AM
Lewis, at Aristo said today that that was a marriage made in heaven....

Hmmm.
Wedlock or shotgun?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Steeve.... 

There's plenty of competition, and a sagging economy, and the difficulty of competing with China. It's a bad time to start a new company. I think some companies can do a better job and increase their quality by working smarter. 

But there are companies stepping up to the plate. Look at Accucraft / AML they have a very nice line of boxcars in 1:29 right out of the chute. Let's see how their new GP60 turns out. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't see the price-fixing or product-reduction arguments holding much water. Kader (the manufacturer) owns Bachmann (the product developer). Aristo-Craft, USA, etc. are merely clients of Sanda Kan. There's no ownership at play. The only thing of value in Sanda Kan for Kader is the production contracts. Why make it more expensive for their new clients? Cutting the competition? I don't see it. Bachmann's already distributing Aristo-Craft's stuff in the UK. Increasing the costs of a product they already distribute would only make that product more expensive, and cut into their distribution profits. Also, in this economic slowdown, I'm fairly certain that if a model train company wanted to look elsewhere, there would be at least one or two other shops in the far east with the ability to kick things into gear fairly quickly. Remember, sales of goods are down globally, which means there are lots of manufacturing plants in China looking for work to make up for sluggish demand. It would be fairly simple (albeit a touch disruptive) for a product developer to take those contracts elsewhere. Then what's Kader got to show for their investment? If Kader was doing this merely as an excuse to expand into 1:29, they could easily do so on their own, or for that matter, take the money they spent on Sanda Kan and bought out Lewis or Charlie instead. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 11/16/2008 12:58 AM
SNIP
It would be fairly simple (albeit a touch disruptive) for a product developer to take those contracts elsewhere. Then what's Kader got to show for their investment? If Kader was doing this merely as an excuse to expand into 1:29, they could easily do so on their own, or for that matter, take the money they spent on Sanda Kan and bought out Lewis or Charlie instead. 

Later, 

K 




That depends on who actually owns the tooling for the models.
The way some deals are structured the moulder also owned the tooling for the models.


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Greg, 

Yeah, I'm interested in Accucraft's stuff as well. They have a long way to go to catch up with Aristocraft in terms of number of products. 

I read your website often and just can't understand how the developers can create products with such a large number of defects and yet have no one to step up and produce a quality product at a reasonable price. I mean you are getting a plastic shell from China for $300 bucks (yes I realize there is more to it). I dunno, in my limited experience it just seems like the craftmenship is not existent.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

The question was asked: "Do you feel there is an opportunity for a new company to start producing large scale trains?"


Short answer: No! Definitely not at this time.


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Oh give me the long answer  I'm new and curious. Is the market really that small?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That depends on who actually owns the tooling for the models. 
The way some deals are structured the moulder also owned the tooling for the models.


They may or may not own the tooling, but I'd be very surprised if the contract was written in such a way that they could do anything with it unless specifically released by the product designer. I would trust Lewis to not enter into any agreement which would potentially endanger his ability to produce his own product. He was dealing with the Chinese long before he started making trains. 

Later, 

K


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

* Aristo definitely owns its own molds. (why did this come out in bold???)

Ed
*


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/15/2008 10:03 PM
Posted By Bob Vaughn on 11/15/2008 5:38 AM
Lewis, at Aristo said today that that was a marriage made in heaven....

Hmmm.
Wedlock or shotgun?







Depends on who's holding the shotgun,in this case sounds like Lewis is, and we all are the colletive grooms...









When production is centralized under fewer hands, price competition deminishes, maybe thats why Lewis is so happy. Less price competition = higher profits margins


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think it will indeed be good eventually. All I feel is that there is going to be disruption in the near term of products from Sanda Kan, like in any company that has been bought. The fact that Sanda Kan was in financial trouble means that changes have to come, to return it to profitability. So, it will NOT be "status quo" at Sanda Kan now or ever again. 

Regards, Greg


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

Let us hope that Kader can fix what JP Morgan undid.. They were in it for the money, nothing else.. 

BulletBob


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Road Foreman on 11/17/2008 10:29 AM
Guys, 

Let us hope that Kader can fix what JP Morgan undid.. They were in it for the money, nothing else.. 

BulletBob

They're ALL in it for the money.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually it was NEVER J.P. Morgan that owned Sanda Kan, but it started with J.P. Morgan Partners Asia, a different company seeded by J.P. Morgan. 

About 2006 J.P. Morgan Partners Asia was spun off to become an independent company, called CCMP. 

That company has owned Sanda Kan for a while. So I find this "waving" of J.P. Morgan's name around a bit misleading. One, it was NEVER the "US" J.P. Morgan as we know it, and two, it was the more recent owner causing the problems. Yeah, yeah, I know the response: the original owner poisoned the company in so it was bad even before it was sold in 2004. 

If a company runs several years under new management and it is still screwed up, it's their fault, not the previous owner's in my opinion. Yes I know it was a LBO. But this was 4 years ago. Can you keep blaming J.P. Morgan Partners Asia/CCMP 4 years later? 

Correct me if I have my facts wrong, but research them for yourself, don't take the entire "story" verbatim from the forum. 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

Well i was just informed from my dealer this morning that his aristos prices will increase 20% Jan 1st, so get what you need now, maybe thats why the new run of gp-40's and e-8s wont hit the shelfs till right after the 1st of the year...........


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well i was just informed from my dealer this morning that aristos prices will increase 20% Jan 1st


Now there's a big surprise. Just remember how quick Aristo was to jack the brass prices with little correlation to actual material increases--Lewis is the King of the Opportunists, that's why this whole thing is a "marriage made in heaven" to him.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, this is the first I've heard of it. Who is your dealer? I thought you bought your Aristo direct from them. 

CRR - I thought that it was odd that the price of track did not increase as the copper prices shot up from $.60 in 2002 to the peak a few months ago at almost $4.00 a pound. The story was that aristo buys the brass in bulk and then when it is depleted, they order more brass. Makes sense to me. You order in bulk so your unit cost is lower. If you ordered just enough material for that specific run, then you'd be paying a lot more every time you order track. Keeps my cost low. It would seem, therefore, that aristo very seldom purchases brass. That leads me to believe that there is essentially no market for these trains. I also read that he is trying to get a credit for the copper he has bought. Not sure how that works. 

In the real world, our steel suppliers could barely keep quotes valid for 18 hours, so it was not a shock to me when track prices doubled here in playtime land. Was Home Depot and Lowes also guilty of price gouging for copper wire? Take a look at Phelps Dodge's profits in the last 2-3 years. Supply and demand at work, with most of the demand coming from China. Besides, last time I checked, no one was holding a gun to my head to buy any of the items they offer. So, why are any of us jumping on any of the guys trying to make a buck when they have an opportunity? That just doesn't make sense. If I can package rocks for a nickel and sell them for $10 a piece, the only ones that cry about it are the ones who didn't think to do it first! You do not have to buy any of this stuff. But take a look at some facts before just assuming that someone is trying to 

I think this thread shows just how much we don't know, myself included. No one has offered any real evidence that anything will change for Bachmann or Aristo but I am hopeful that this is good news for all of us.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Speculation at its finest!


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 11/17/2008 1:46 PM
Nick, this is the first I've heard of it. Who is your dealer? I thought you bought your Aristo direct from them. 

CRR - I thought that it was odd that the price of track did not increase as the copper prices shot up from $.60 in 2002 to the peak a few months ago at almost $4.00 a pound. The story was that aristo buys the brass in bulk and then when it is depleted, they order more brass. Makes sense to me. You order in bulk so your unit cost is lower. If you ordered just enough material for that specific run, then you'd be paying a lot more every time you order track. Keeps my cost low. It would seem, therefore, that aristo very seldom purchases brass. That leads me to believe that there is essentially no market for these trains. I also read that he is trying to get a credit for the copper he has bought. Not sure how that works. 

In the real world, our steel suppliers could barely keep quotes valid for 18 hours, so it was not a shock to me when track prices doubled here in playtime land. Was Home Depot and Lowes also guilty of price gouging for copper wire? Take a look at Phelps Dodge's profits in the last 2-3 years. Supply and demand at work, with most of the demand coming from China. Besides, last time I checked, no one was holding a gun to my head to buy any of the items they offer. So, why are any of us jumping on any of the guys trying to make a buck when they have an opportunity? That just doesn't make sense. If I can package rocks for a nickel and sell them for $10 a piece, the only ones that cry about it are the ones who didn't think to do it first! You do not have to buy any of this stuff. But take a look at some facts before just assuming that someone is trying to 

I think this thread shows just how much we don't know, myself included. No one has offered any real evidence that anything will change for Bachmann or Aristo but I am hopeful that this is good news for all of us. 




Mark,
Call your dealer and ask if prices were going up jan 1st, i called 2 dealers this morning lookin for some stuff and i was told that the aristo stuff thats not in stock and not expected to be here till after the 1st the price were starting to be raised now so people dont get sticker shock when they arrive, the rest will be increasd after the 1st by 20%,now i dont know if it is related to whats going on in china but i also thought aristo had a 5 to 10 % increase at the beginning of the year but i would have to go back and check to see when they happened my 2nd dealer said the same thing when asked, he also informed me that USA had a 10% price increase on 50% of there items last month. as to the direct dealings with aristo, you of all people know goergie cant stand me and until he says he's sorry for what he said and did well the feelings are mutual so no direct dealings with aristo...plus aristo doesnt sell to the public the last time i knew. when i told my nephew this morning he called his dealer to find out if the prices were going to increase on his 4 new e-8 and a couple gp 40s he was told prices will go up after 1st of the year and nothing they could do about it, so he told them to cancel his back orders and he would wait because they could not honor the prce that was quoted on the pre order .... so i think like me he will no longer preoder anything from anyone ,cause chances are the price will change due to market conditions and what ever.. i never buy unless item is available because because most times price change before items are received if there a back order and i never repeat never put $ down on any thing thats not in stock, then you cant be burned if things change... the one credit i will give aristo is on there no information till new items have a mock up model policy so you know the item will in fact be made, they put in place, that way some dealers cant hold your deposit money for years till product come out if they require a deposit to preorder.. To tell you the truth Mark, ive grown very tired on the bickering and the sticking up for tthe rite thing thing. so while i own large # of there items there will be no new items for me from that company unless the gods of g scale slap me in the back of the the head and say i need to buy this.they just dont do it for me anymore, maybe for others here but not me, "to each there own"so im out of all this bickering crap and just be content with what i have.......


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so I've received some private emails. 

For those of you who read and understand what I wrote, _please _do not be insulted by the big letters. This is for the people who really did not read what I posted and don't want to hear anything negative about the purchase of Sanda Kan or Aristo.


(again I apologize for those who already read and understood)



I think the purchase of Sanda Kan will be good for Aristo long term.


I think that short term, there will be disruption in production as the new management and company policies are phased in.

Since Sanda Kan was in trouble, there WILL have to be organizational changes made, I cannot believe all of their problems were caused by the LBO in 2004.


Buy everything you need that Aristo has in stock now.



(we now return you to normal, I apologize for shouting at the people who want to live in an alternate reality)


By the way, no more private emails, look up your facts on the Internet please, like I said before.


Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11/17/2008 3:14 PM
OK, so I've received some pr


HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU???????? im insulted SIR... HE HE HE







 GOOD THING  im a kind hearted person..... HA 
 
PS did you get my email the other night or are you just DISSIN ME?????????


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Could this be the beginning of the end for 1:29 ????


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 11/17/2008 4:21 PM
Could this be the beginning of the end for 1:29 ???? 


Yes, buy 1:20.3 now!


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

And still no one thinks a company could do it better? 

I used to be involved with computer case manufacturing from China. This happens often as the Chinese company pushes around the buyer causing prices to go crazy (20% during a recession...are you crazy!?). 

What companies fail to realize is that you can get these products made at the same cost or slightly higher with companies that aren't as volatile. The quality normally ends up being better and in the long run the company is more profitable. With computer cases the best ones were made in the US for a higher price but about 100 times the quality. Others made in South America and other parts of Asia and Mexico are also of better quality. 

I've only been learning about garden trains the last few months and already it seems that the business practices of some of these companies is crazy and bordering on a oligopoly. I've been interested in trains for years and only recently have I heard about garden trains...that should show you lack of awareness these companies have created (as one example of their failings). 

In any event, I admit I am no expert but those are my humble opinions


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)




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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've got get a new hobby, these people are odd


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Gee we all may need a new hobby if prices keep going up. metal prices go down but track prices go up more. Go figure. Later RJD


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I heard about the Aristo price increases months back...

So I doubt it has to do with the sale... probably just the increased costs of shipping etc...

USA is raising prices too... at least they all waited till after Christmas...

Philip


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2008)

we could all say screw the Chi-Coms and buy from Phil at HLW?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2008)

Posted By lathroum on 11/18/2008 7:35 AM
I heard about the Aristo price increases months back...

So I doubt it has to do with the sale... probably just the increased costs of shipping etc...

USA is raising prices too... at least they all waited till after Christmas...

Philip





No more raises for USA so my dealers tell me, they had a 10% increase last month but on only 50% of there items,


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't think I'll hold my break on that answer either. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, buy now is a good idea, methinks, since the holiday sales may be down, hopefully some good deals... I'm firing off a wish list of Aristo parts tomorrow.

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

(OK ... I just got victimized by the disappearing message in the editor problem)

Greg: My comment was not directed at you or anyone else in this thread. It was meant as a comment towards the thread itself.

I just always get a kick out of all the speculation that occurs when some sort of corporate move is made in the large scale train world. You are all certainly welcome to express your opinions and guesses as to the outcome of something you have absolutely no control over (and usually very little factual information). It just makes for great (long and amusing) threads. For a hobby, some folks (not aimed at you Greg) sure take this stuff seriously!


Edit: So, now I'm confused. This post is in response to a post I recieved via e-mail, but doesn't seem to appear here now! ???


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This has been one of those "hand grenades". 
Pull the pin, pitch it through the door, holler "fire in the hole!" and see what happens. 

The speculation is amazing. 

Some folks know a lot, some a little, some none at all, but it's been entertaining nonetheless. 

The only "information" I've put into this thread was the press release.

What's not for publication is not published.
Going to be quite a ride......


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I screwed up Del, and wrote something stupid... went back and killed it... and again, my apologies... I had the settings on which post displayed screwed up and was seeing old posts as new posts.... 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11/18/2008 9:20 PM
I screwed up Del, and wrote something stupid... went back and killed it... and again, my apologies... I had the settings on which post displayed screwed up and was seeing old posts as new posts.... 

Regards, Greg


Maybe I can put you in touch with a computer whiz who can help you figure that stuff out on your own.
IF I could get him to answer his phone.....or e-mails.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hah! I can't get no respect! (In his best Rodney Dangerfield voice). 

TOC, with friends like you who needs enemies? 

ha ha ha! 

Greg 

(running joke from TOC to me, I never answer the phone!)


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

his aristos prices will increase 20% Jan 1st


Talking about prices of Chinese-made goods... You all realise that the US Gov thinks China is artificially holding down the value of their currency to make exports cheaper? Any 'adjustment' makes our trains more expensive.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 11/17/2008 6:42 PM
I've got get a new hobby, these people are odd



Mike,Im not odd just different!!!!HE HE HE 


 YOU DONT LIKE MY IRISH DANCING GUY?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg everyone has a bad day every once in awhile. Later RJD


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