# Live steam on heavy inclines advice please.



## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi

I am considering the addition of live steam to the running on my layout.
I have some very heavy gradients on my line (10+% in places). These are there due to no other solution that is practicable.

I have tested the layout with a friend's little Regner 'Konrad' steamer and it performed well but found it hard to drag more than two small cars behind it up the slopes. It was good due to its reduction gearing.

I am considering purchasing one of the Regners, possibly the lumberjack (with the gearing upgrade) and also the Accucraft 3 cylinder shay. My Bachmann electric 1:20.3 shay does pull up to 7 log cars up, the slopes so I was hoping that the live steam Accucraft version would also have the pulling power.
I am aware thet the oil that the steamer will lay down on the track might affect the adhesion.

has anyone got any experiences with the Accucraft 3 cylinder live steam Shay?


----------



## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

10% is fairly steep for even geared engines and the Lumberjack and Accucraft shays are very capable engines. Your biggest issue will be wheel adhesion. I have a 3 cyl shay (1st run) and it gets a somewhat shorter runtime than the 2 cyl. I also am under the impression that there was a gearing change after the first run of the shays. It is possible to add weight to the engine if wheel slip becomes the limiting factor but only to a certain degree. I say give it a shot!


Here's a pic of a Lumberjack pulling 17 cars on fairly level track.


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found that on average our engines will pull about 1/3 of their weight on the level. Weigh your electric Shay and find out how much the steam version weighs. If the LS version weighs more it will pull more cars. If it weighs less it will pull less up the incline. This should give you some idea as to what to expect. 

Chuck 

Note added: I just weighed my Bachmann 2-truck Shay and measured its tractive effort (I use a fisherman's scale tied to the coupler and increase the voltage until I get wheel slip). The engine weighs 9.6 pounds and the tractive effort is only 2.5 pounds. Which is about 26% of the engine weight. I'm very surprised as my Bachmann Climax will pull 31% if its weight. The Shay is newer, so the plating on the wheels may not be as worn down.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Remember, what goes up, must come down...

If you set the throttle open enough to have the power to go up a steep incline it may run-away on the decline, unless you are running along side of it and are able to adjust the throttle accordingly. S, I recommend that you install some sort of Remote Control of a Servo on at least the throttle (or the Reverser if it is the usual Accucraft style that uses a third piston/cylinder that can throttle the flow of steam by varying how far into Forward or Reverse it is set). Run-away speed of a geared engine is considerably lower than a rod engine, but can still exceed a safe speed for any sharp curve at the bottom of a hill.

Note that some locomotives will pause when starting up an incline until the steam pressure builds up enough to then move it on up the hill, sometimes that is fun to watch (if you don't get antsy and run over to nudge it or adjust the throttle







).


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"I have found that on average our engines will pull about 1/3 of their weight on the level...." 

Interesting but our observation (mainly SG locomotives @ 60 lbs) is that we can pull over 200 lbs behind LS engines even on a .6% grade. As to "heavy" inclines has more relativity to narrow gauge. As it has been expressed inclines require ability to control the up and down. 

As I recall "heavy incline" at Diamondhead International steamup was nearly 30 degrees by a Shay


----------



## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, I'm talking about drawbar pull. Not weight of the cars. My Accucraft San Juan brass (5 car) set weighs a lot more than any of my Ks, but they pull them without a problem. In my opinion the weight of the train has very little to do with it on the level. Friction in the journals is the big problem. Chuck Note added, my electric Mallet (AristoCraft) has a drawbar pull of 3 pounds. It easily pulls a 34 car train, battery car, caboose, and 32 LGB iron ore cars up the 0.6% grade you referred to. Metal wheels, but no BBs.


----------



## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I have a 3% mountain division, and it is hard work for rod locos, again as stated before a radio control is really helpful. My Aster climax doesnt do any better, it seems to have a pretty low gear ratio so it is not a stump puller.


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I think the best way to handle sharp grades is dynamite.


----------



## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

The grades that you are proposing is basically beyond the capabilities of most steam locomotives - full size or models. For rod engines, the normal rule of thumb that engineers used for tractive effort was 25% and few engines exceeded it. Steam models generally do more poorly than the full size. Geared engines do better and some of the group have given you their experience. But you will face a couple of other issues that may or may not have been factored in. Curves on grades dramatically impact the drag on the loco and reduce your effective load. As you or others have mentioned, oil on track (which some Accucraft engines specialize in) can further reduce pulling power. 

So unless you only expect to pull 2-3 cars and use only geared locos or install a rack system and find a compatible loco, you will face ongoing running challenges. IMHO, the best thing you can do is come up with a way to reduce your grades -- even if it means totally redesigning your layout. 

Good luck, 

Ross Schlabach


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Why not use a stationary steam engine to power a 'mule'. A cable powered shoe that rides between the rails but comes up tall enough to push on pad on the loco to assist the climb. At both ends it drops into a hole as the train passes by.... 

John


----------



## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

We have been discussing this already a couple of times. I personally enjoy running steamers on heavy grades, see:



The grade used to be around 10%, now due to the persistent work of a gopher it has sagged a little. The loco is geared (Betsy from Madera Sugar Pine)
Regards


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

As Semper says....it's NOT going up that's the issue...is what happens when ya come down. Lotsa RV owners have learned this...the hard way. So...while a shay will have few issues with your 10% grades...going up...think about what happens when they have to go DOWN...ain't no brakes on LS stuff.


----------



## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I would get the gearing upgrade for the Lumberjack. Worst case just pull the two or so light cars. Maybe some Hartland mini series flats. They would look good behind the Lumberjack. Another solution could be to add a siding at the bottom and maybe the top of the grade to store your log cars. Then you can take one or two cars at a time up that grade. What about a switchback? You could go with the shay but again you might be limited to how many cars you pull. Too me that's not a big deal even if you can only get one car. Like some said once you get steam oil on the tracks you will have traction issues.


----------



## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

Thanks for the input lads. A bit of thinking material there.

A redesign of the layout is just not possible, unfortunately, but maybe the idea of a siding at the bottom of the hill could be added.... At present my electric locos diesels double/triple headed, rod steamers with motorised 'helper' rolling stock, do get up the inclines with a fair string of cars in tow (by fair I do mean up to 5/6 passenger cars (metal with diesels, plastic with steamers)) or 8/9 freight. 
I will obviously not be expecting the same with live steam.


The visiting Regner 'Konrad' with its reduction gearing was okay going up and down light and it was pretty well mannered with two cars going down but going up made it work very hard, but there was no wheel slip.

Taking in all of the advice that I have read, seen and been told, it leads me to thinking that the three cylinder Shay should be fine for some light log cars (I have 9 Bachmann 1:20.3 cars with the light plastic logs which are customised to make them not seem so 'plastic'). Its low gearing should not only mean well mannered progress up the slope but also down the other side. RC would help but as the shay is pretty slow even at top speed, it possibly is not necessary. 
If I got hold of one I would also add a little more weight to help with the adhesion (especially as the oil on the track will not be helping)

Still not sure how the Regner 'Lumberjack' will actually perform though.


----------



## beavercreek (Dec 12, 2008)

This is an old thread and I started it about three years ago.
Well, I have invested in Live Steam and I have had a hoot with it.
I first got a used 2 cylinder shay and although it had been around the block a bit but just ploughed (plowed) up the maximum 10% incline with a string of about 5 logging skeletons, or other cars, but it did tend to go a little faster down hill with the weight of the cars behind bearing down on it.

A video can be seen on the railroad's Facebook page www.facebook.com/beavercreekrailroad.
I was still getting used to her throttle so she was running fast anyway!

I then got an 'as new' new older version Accucraft 3 cylinder shay.
It behaved in an even more mannered way than the older well used 2 cylinder jobbie.
It pulls really well and also hardly speeds up down hill even with a string of cars behind.

I even had a whole heap of fun lashing the 2 cylinder and 3 cylinder locos together.


----------



## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the photos/Facebook page of your beautiful layout. I think now nobody would doubt your assertion that your railroad shouldn't be rebuilt. Nothing beats grades, up or down, like more gears. Anything with a single gear reduction (Shay, Heisler, etc.) will still be noticeably affected by grades. Locomotives with multiple gear reductions (Class A Climaxes and some Class B "normal" Climaxes) won't notice hills at all. The Class A Climaxes I recently built each have gear reductions that are greater than 7.5 to 1 (low gear) making them perfect runners for garden railways where live steam wasn't a design consideration. More gears = more torque.


----------



## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

You may want to squirt some light weight oil on into the journals of your cars to lessen the drag. Couldn't hurt.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It seems from all the reading I have done in my life as a railfan that on real railroads with adhesion (that is no rack system) locomotives that the maximum alowed was 7% for short industrial spurs. In electric I know of some lines that allow 9% but they used a breaking system that incorporated a central rail and a brake that bit that rail (somewhat like the Fell system). At 7% a geared engine could handle about two cars at the most. I experienced this on one of the last revenue earning shays in the world in 1971 in La Paz in Bolivia. It hauled two boxcars up a short 7% grade which was the main reason a shay was used for this switching service. 

On rod engines the grade should be significantly lower (say 4% would already be quite heroic), read the Moffat story to understand what is at stake here. IE: Two mallets on the point ten cars two more malets in the middle, another ten cars and a mallet pushing up the rear! On most main lines grades hardly exceded 1.85% thats the Pennsy crossing of the Alleghenies, although Raton on the Santa Fe is 3% but that is mainly a passenger route. The main problem is braking going down such dangerous gradients, and that holds true for gauge one. The lore of the rails the world over is full of sad songs about runaways.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

beavercreek said:


> Hi
> 
> .
> .
> ...


I had a 3 cyl for many years. I think it would handle your grade up or down hill just fine. It would look great doing it too.

vr Bob


----------

