# Newbie question(s)...



## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi all... I'm a newbie to the whole garden scale thing. Messed with HO and N in a previous life.
Wife is very onboard for working up a garden setup.
A little about our situation at the moment...

We're in a rental house, and looks like we're stuck here for 2 more years.
We have a pool in the backyard, surrounded by cool decking, and a couple of slightly sunken

areas on the east side and south side of the pool where they left the cool decking out so there are trees 
/bushes planted there. 

We want to set up something for us to tinker with for a couple of years until we buy a house and can go hog wild.
We want to set up a loop in each 'planting bed', and run across the cool decking by the fence in between.

My questions are...
Is it ok to just lay the track across the cool decking, or should be be on some kind of road bed?

I was guided towards decomposed granite to fill in the 'planting beds' and bring them up to the same level

as the cool decking (about 2 inches or so). Once we get the area cleared out and ready, I'll post some pics and would love to 
get some opinions on making the most of the area without doing anything too elaborate, as again, this will be about a 2 year

run before we move. We have about 140ft or so of LGB track. tight radius 1100 series track. Also have a Bachman 4-6-0,
nothing fancy at all, and an Aristo Switcher. No other rolling stock at the moment.

I have one power supply for track power, but want to go DCC/RC or something along those lines eventually.
Main goal right now is just to get something up and running.


Thanks all!!! Been wanting to do this for a LONG time!

Ron


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Add weight to the 4-6-0 front truck and it will go through the 11000 curves, both of mine do. 

G scale is not as fussy about track work as HO and is very forgiving!! 

Just lay the track down, trains will run. Only thing that caused ne problems was side to side uneven with 3 axle trucks.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Ron
Why not try a ladder system of road bed described many times here on mls. Do it in sections. It can sit on the surface of the planting beds. Maybe a few stakes in the ground to support it. That way when you get a new house you can just take the sections apart and move to the new house. Then you have a head start on your permanent layout because you can use the sections again.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron,
Congratulations! You are ready to start putting track down outside and you are asking the right questions! you have avoided the first serious mistake by starting with LGB track (which is solid brass and made for outdoor use as opposed to Bachmann tin-type which most definitely _isn't!_) Your 4-6-0 and switcher are capable of running on R1 (1100) curves but that is _tight_ and will constrain you to LGB or very small regular Bachmann in the future. Since this is a temporary (read 1-2 years) layout, how well you construct it is not so important to it's running BUT because good design and construction of trackwork is essential to the long-term proper running of your railroad, when you get to your new house and plan your permanent layout you will need to follow all of the proper steps to try and avoid most of the pitfalls usually caused by taking "shortcuts!" With this in mind you might as well start using good building practices with this temporary layout.

What is your climate like? I'm not certain what "decomposed" granite is but I suspect you are referring to crushed granite "fines" (very small pieces like poultry grit about the size of kitty litter particles) which is excellent. There are a number of ways to go with this and JJ has suggested a good one with the "ladder method" but for a temporary layout which will have to be removed I would recommend "floating" the track on ballast. Since there is a two inch difference between the height of the "cool deck" and the open ground you will need to bring the roadbed up to the same level. I would not recommend using the granite for this as it will take a lot! Rather, get some old bricks and lay out the shape of the track, then fill in the sides with dirt leveling the grade and tapering the sides (this will help prevent weeds from growing in the track as well as keeping the track from experiencing "dips".) Get it nice and firm (if you have clay soil this is the time to use it!) Now, begin to lay out a layer of ballast using your decomposed granite tamping it down and into the soil. This will take a little time as it is here that you need to do the majority of your leveling!

Once this is done you can start laying track. How you join them together is your decision but I recommend railclamps as they align the track and keep good continuity but they _are_ more expensive! In my opinion they are worth the extra $$. Then you will need to sprinkle the ballast between the tracks to hold it in place and brush away the excess. I wouldn't try and ballast on the deck. you might want to use a small brad nail every three or four feet or so to secure the track to the deck but beware! The teperature changes from summer to winter will cause large fluctuations with the brass track expanding and contracting so you _don't_ want to secure it down tightly!

Connect your power supply and you are ready to go! What you do after that and how far you want to go are entirely up to you and your wallet! Have fun and welcome to garden railroading!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

DG; decomposed Granite, size varies from 3/16 to fines. It does hold it's shape well but is not impervious to our Monsoons. You can fill your depresssions with it, but not much will grow in or through it. For a simple loop, why not get 2 - 3" thick pavers and build a raised roadbed with them, just lay your track on them and the deck.... 

I'm unfamiliar with LGB's connectors, I use Aristo SS and trust the screws supplied for electrical continuity. My track floats in ballast and handles expansion without kinks. Screwing your track to the deck could cause kinks.... if you want to run fast tains I'd suggest railclamps to hold your track together 

I'm SE of Tucson in Vail, so I understand your climate. 

John


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi 

I have had this layout running around the pool since Nov. The only problem I've had was a Caboose jumping the track and going swimming. The track is not secured in place. The chlorine in the water hasn't seemed to effect the brass rail or plastic ties. Here is a video of the train snaking around the pool. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1HNrB5cPqo 



Randy


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

All these guys have great suggestions. Please post some pictures of what you decided to do. They will inspire someone else to do what you are doing of serve as a guide line for other new members. 

Oops I almost for got.......WELCOME TO MLS.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By rlvette on 18 Jul 2009 10:24 AM 
Hi 

I have had this layout running around the pool since Nov. The only problem I've had was a Caboose jumping the track and going swimming. The track is not secured in place. The chlorine in the water hasn't seemed to effect the brass rail or plastic ties. Here is a video of the train snaking around the pool. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1HNrB5cPqo 



Randy 



Randy,
I watched three of your vids and was disappointed that you chose not to show your diving caboose!

Where does the track on the far side go? 

Looks like a fun layout.

John


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are two pics of the caboose. One in the pool and one in the hot tub. Of course it always stayed on the track while filming the movies. 




















The track on the far side is just a pair of side tracks that the wind from storms seems to play havic on the frt cars. 










Randy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks.... 

I found out the hard way that some coupler screws aren't very long. Wind blew some cars off the trestle, but the couplers stayed with the other cars! 

Maybe a wind farm could go in there and you continue the expansion beyond! 

Jjohn


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The desert wind plays hovac with my trains too. That is why all my bridges have sides on the catch the falling cars. 

Ok who is going to model a wind farm big enough to run their layout? 

I thought of a Solar Panel aray for a town and or ranch. 

Ops I shouldn't HI Jack a thread.


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## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for the warm reception. I like the ladder roadbed idea. I live in Tempe, a suburb of Phoenix. Needless to say, we don't have any frost
issues. It seems like PVC for the uprights is pretty common, and especially considering this will be up for only a couple of years, makes the most
sense. I'd seen reference where one person had theirs buried 2ft down. As hard as the ground is out here in the Valley of the Sun, that's a TON

of work. I am thinking 12" should be deep enough. What do you all think?
What the best way to bore a 1.5" hole? Auger bit and an industrial type drill, or ??? 

What size material, and what material do you recommend for the vertical boards that will straddle the PVC? Looks like maybe 1/2" material,
but I haven't seen a reference as to what the material is... 

What's the best spacing for the poles? 18", 24", 30"?
I'm assuming the best way to figure out the layout of the poles is to lay the track out on the ground, mark it, then

center the poles in the area between the outline?
This is much more involved (and exciting) than the smaller scales. I'd prefer to ask questions first, and make my learning curve

a bit easier by drawing on y'all's expereinces... 

Thanks again!!


Ron


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Try some Contractors stakes. You can get them at Home Depot single or in bundles. Out here in New River I can't drive a stake in the ground more than 6 inches with out running into some rock or another


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Not only do we have diving trains also the KS tornadoes appear to be in FL. Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You can rent a small one-man auger at Home Disapointment. But it will drill a 3-4" hole. Which leaves fiddle room.... a good thing. Trying to drill a hole in the ground at a precise angle s tough to do, an oversize hole allows for minor adjustments. Solid backfill will hold your posts. You won't have much latteral forces to contend with, just vetical support. 

I'm assuming that you are only raising the track up to the deck and won't extend the ladder onto the deck, just the track. The posts just provide lift, they don't hold the ladder to shape, so you can use pavers to take the place of the posts. 

After you get some run time, you might see improvements to make .. on your curve, learning curve. 

Seems like too much work to set the poles for 2-3 inches of rise. Free floating track will let you see the effects of living in The Valley of the Singed! 

John


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

Ron, you need to hook up with the AZ Big Train Operators. They are all over the valley, and there is lots of expertise there on virtually anything. Check out azbigtrains.org.

Paul


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## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for the tips guys. I'd thought about renting something from the BORG (Big Orange Retail Giant, Resistance is Futile!) and augering the holes. 
Now it sounds like we'll be moving very soon, but into another rental. My wifes mother is disabled, seems to be getting worse so she'll be moving in with us.
This rental that we're in doesn't work for her, so we're looking for another rental. SIGH!

There's a train swap meet this coming weekend in Phoenix that we're planning on being there bright and early for. See what kind of bargains I can find, and
keep planning and such. We're leaving the house now to go look at some properties. We'll obviously have to see what the new backyard looks like and then go from there.

Why is is people always wind up moving in the friggin' summer???? 

Ron


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Where is the train swap meet this week end in Phoenix ?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Our layout, just across the river from Washington DC, is built on ladder roadbed, for supports I used trex posts and pvc pipe. Some of it is 14 inches or solo off the ground, some of it is at ground level. I didn't dig or auger holes, I just drove the posts into the ground with a sledge. How far? It varies--sometimes a foot or so, sometimes less. I've had some movement, but not all that much, and nothing I can't readjust by whacking the post down a few times. We get winter temps in the teens, and summer temps in the 90s. It's hard to drive the posts level and plumb, but with the ladder method you can adjust plumb to some extent when you attach the post to the track


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## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

The swap meet is at the North Phoenix Baptist Church, 
5757 N Central Ave 
Phoenix, AZ 85012 
(623) 707-5757 

Doors open at 9am on 7/25/09... runs until 1pm. 

Ron


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## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

Lownote, do you happen to have any pics of the trex posts? What I'm seeing doing a google search for trex looks like items to bolt to a foundation or deck. I didn't see 
anything for burying a post. I'm looking for any ideas I can find... 

thanks!! 

Ron


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Ron, 
Trex is a plasticwood used for decking. I bought some and cut on two planes to make stringers. After 4 years in 'our' sun it started to crumble. A fellow MLS'er reported a trex report in essence revoking any warrantee if sanded or cut..... Trex is not cheap. I'm pretty sure that decomp is quickened when our temps go over 100 and stay..... 

On your rental property you could use concrete footings and bolt your legs to them, a more permanent footing would be to auger down 6" pour your own crete and then push in your supports (pvc pipe). I have seen one example of using T-sections (pipe unions) on top for lateral support.... 

PVC pipe is easier to drive, but I bet Lownote has soil on his ground! Fewer rocks and no caliche clay to impeed his stakes. Even after a good soak, 8" was a good drive for me! Usually I settled for a lot less, but mine held up catus skeletons... wind and birds are always knocking them over... 

John


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If you look on the link to out website in the my signature there are lots of pictures of the trex. We have had some of it outside, in contact with the ground, for ten years now and it seems fine. It's a solid material and I have ben cutng it for years and I can't see why cutting it would do anything at all--I mean, if it's decking, you have to cut the boards to length. 

I bought trex 2x4s and ripped the sides to make the ladder, and then used the central core to make the posts


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## AZ_Ron (Dec 27, 2007)

Nice layout Lownote... very nice. I think the issue I'd have using the trex though is the fact that I live in a suburb of Phoenix... we usually have about 2 months in the summer 
where the temps are over 110f... 3-4 months it's over 100f and the sun is absolutely brutal. 
I'm getting lots of ideas and will do some more research. My guess is it'll be 2 months or so before I can think about really laying track down with having to move and all... 

Ron


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you!

I can't speak for Arizona conditions--maybe it does not hold up well in that kind of heat. It has been an excellent performer for us. The downside of trex is it's kind of a bear to rip--it's more dense than wood--and it is not as easy to bend. It fte eeds to be pre-drilled. The upside is if you buy a trex 2x4, rip two 3/4 strips off the wides sides, you get material for spacers and material for posts, it all matches and no waste. At some Lowes you can find trex balustrades for deck railing--they make good posts


We have also used two products from Home Depot, "Tuf Board" and some kind of (I think) PVC board that has no name. Both are easier to work with than trex but they have to be painted and you need something for posts. PVC pipe works but is a little ugly, my wife won't allow PTP wood in the garden unless absolutely necessary


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