# USA trains F3 sideframes.



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a question for you guys that are in the know. I just noticed that all my USA F3 sideframes have a different casting for the brake cylinders than the gp models. On all their gp models the cylinders are mounted to the inside of the axles. On the F3's it is a different casting and mounted to the outside of the axles. I haven't seen any prototype photos that have them placed that way. They are all like the gp's. I guess pictures would help.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, I have an ABA set of F3s sitting here on my desk. 

I've looked at the pictures of the GP7/9s and GP-30s on USAT's website and I don't see what you're talking about. 

From the photos and the F3s I have here, the trucks look the same to me.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

The picture above will help clarify what Paul is asking about.
I will look in my books when I get home from work.

-Ted


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, yes I see the difference now.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

just looking at a B&M F3 rear is in and ft. is out so who knows what you will find in real life so usa must be could not make up there mind so both out 
just looked t a pic. of B&M 4228 there both in


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul,

Look at this E-bay, if you mouse over the engine looks like the brake cyl are in from the axle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Southern-Pa...965?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337e9564bd

Don


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I too looked at many pictures of SP EMD F units and was unable to find anything that corroborated USAT’s F unit brake cylinder location. All the pictures I found look to have the cylinder located aft of the axle center-line like the Geeps. EMD’s E units appear to have the cylinder forward of the axle as depicted in the drawing Ted provided of a GP38…. I believe the F and GP units used the same trucks and all had the 24RL brake system in play in this time period or at least with Southern Pacific equipment which is what is in question herein.

Ted,

Are the drawings you cropped available online?

Michael


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

good job Ted look just like pics from usa trains


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,
Thanks for posting the drawings. That shows exactly what I'm talking about. I still haven't seen any prototype photos that look like that. Incidentally,the three F3's that I have I just acquired and are the only ones I have. I only noticed the difference when making some brake lines for them. I measured the ones on one of my geeps and cut and bent the brass rod and found that it wouldn't fit the F3. Thought at first I measured wrong until I took a closer look.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

So folks could better understand what Paul had asked, I cropped and annotated the drawings excerpted from the USAT pdf loco manuals. 

BTW, the Aristo-Craft GP 40 has the cylinders located inboard of the axle centers.









To my recollection, I think I have a book with photographs that show various diesel loco trucks with brief descriptions. 
I can look for the info. after I get home from work this evening. 

-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting observation Paul. 
Here's some pictures off a real GP (not sure which model) 
















USAT trucks in the process of being modified by me. The pictures not the greatest clarity 








I'm modifying the axle bearings and down sizing the oversized brake cylinder that USAT uses on the 4 axle locomotive trucks. I've noticed on the 6 axle models the brake cylinder is a little more to scale. 

Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig,
Airline disconnected in that first photo? My F3's are the first ones I have purchased. Always hoped USA would come out with F7's or at least later model F3's with Farr grills. The USA F3's have been out for a lot of years, I'm surprised that this hasn't come up before.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, 
Yes the first photo shows the air line disconnected. 
I'm working on a GP30 project to super detail it out, and I'm slowly learning that USAT's "ultimate in realism" doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of the things they do. I know its not brass, but I would expect some level of actual research done... 
The USAT F3's are more F2 models than anything or so I've been told... 

Craig


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Paul, 

I have reviewed several books for pictures and / or descriptions about the Blomberg 2 axle trucks. 

With respect to the cylinder placement, all the ones shown are located INBOARD of the axles. (Thus far I have found none mounted outboard of the axles.) 
This includes EMD FT, F3, F7, F9, and GP type locos. Cylinder variations include only one cylinder on the left side of the truck frame - but still mounted inboard of the axle with a vertically mounted shock absorber located on the right side. Observed locos with this single cylinder variation include some GP38-2s, GP39, GP40P, F40PH, GP50, GP60. 

-Ted


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

So the question is,why did USA make the F3 sideframes the way they did ? I can't remember,did the F3's or GP9's come to market first?


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

The GP9 came to the market first. So you would think that USAT would have used the same molds, so why the change? 

Craig


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I, also, ask why does the USAT GP38 loco I got have relatively tiny wheels that are more appropriate for a small switch engine like a GE 44 tonner! (I don't have a GP9, etc. yet, but I suspect these other USAT locos using the same trucks / motor blocks have the same tiny wheels.)










This wheel size is non prototypically small in tread diameter.
For a 1/29th scale loco, this wheel scales out to about 32 -33 inches in diameter, whereas, the prototype GP 38, GP 40 and other similar road diesels typically use 40 inchers. 

I put a Lexan spacer (0.093 inch thick) in the chassis recess where the trucks go to raise up the loco for a more prototypical height when *I installed Kadee centerset couplers*.









-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted, 
Who knows why USAT does what they do. All the four axle locomotives share the same motor block and until yesterday I thought they shared the same sideframes too







I upgrade my loco wheels to NWSL 40" wheels. It takes care of three problems; first prototypical sized wheels, second no traction tires, third more realistic looking flange depths. 
It requires grinding down the brake shoe a bit to make the wheel fit, but I think it still looks okay.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

What does the flange dept measure on NWSL 40" wheels? 
Anyway the last time I tried, I don't think this company (or who took them over) sells any more NWSL wheels. 

Thank you, 
-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 18 Dec 2012 10:38 AM 
What does the flange dept measure on NWSL 40" wheels? 
Anyway the last time I tried, I don't think this company (or who took them over) sells any more NWSL wheels. 

Thank you, 
-Ted 
Ted,
The flange depth on the semi-scale wheels is about .100" At one point in time NWSL sold both Semi-Scale wheels and Fine-scale wheels. The Semi-Scale wheels have the .100" flange, and the Fine-Scale had something smaller (I want to say .045-0.50"?). I have the Semi-Scale wheels and have yet to have a problem running on any commercial 45mm gauge track (.332, .250, .215). The Fine-Scale wheels don't work at all, but I don't think NWSL even sells them anymore. The Semi-Scale ones are called 270.
Here's the 36" NWSL 270 Wheels
http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=1367&categoryId=-1
Here's the 40" NWSL 270 Wheels 
http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=1480&categoryId=-1
And replacement gears as well. 
http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=1225&categoryId=-1

Here's some pictures for you
























Here's a shot showing how much the brake pad needs to get ground down.









For my GP30 project I'm trying to rework the brake pads so that they look released instead of applied. This should be an interesting project for a variety of reasons. I'm learning that the USA brake pads are oversized anyway...







Along with a bunch of other things on the locomotives...


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Like some others, I just spent some time going over a TON of prototype photos..Many different models of EMD F-unit, including the F3's predecessor the FT. 
(just in case perhaps USA Trains used information from before the F3) Also looked at prototype GP7's and GP9's from the same era.. 
there is not ONE single photo anywhere, that I could find, that shows the brake cylinder arrangement of the USA Trains F3.. 
All photos of the EMD Blomberg truck show the cylinders inside the axle centers.. 

What to conclude? 
USA Trains most likely simply got it wrong.. 

"but wait" you say..how could USA trains *possibly* get that wrong, when the precedent for placing the cylinders where they did 
*doesn't even exist*, and to get the correct placement, all you need to do is spend 2 minutes with Google? 

Well..they have done it before..several times.. 
the paintscheme on the USA Trains Lehigh Valley GP38-2 is wrong in literally every possible detail.. 
there is nothing correct about it..wrong color, wrong font, wrong stripes, wrong everything.. 
2 minutes with google would have fixed everything.. 

And the most amazing example, the USA Trains CSX SD40-2 and GP38-2 paint schemes: 










For both models, they used a light blue for the "lighter" part of the paintscheme on the long hood.. 
just one problem..that light blue color *never*! ever, existed on a single prototype CSX locomotive.. 
it has always been a completely neutral light grey. 
Thousands of prototype locomotives, and thousands of photos exist.. 
Yet they somehow used a color that has *never* existed on a real CSX locomotive.. 
How is it possible to get that wrong? 

So am I surprised about the truck brake cylinders? sadly, no. 

I do love USA Trains diesels!  
the detail is fabulous, they are good runners, and my USA Alco PA's are my favorite locomotives.. 
(they did much better on the LV paintscheme for the PA's) 
but still, they are somewhat infamous for really weird, unexplainable and completely avoidable errors like this.. 

Someday I plan to make a trio of USA Trains Lehigh Valley GP38-2's..but I will have to paint them myself. 
apart from that, I expect they will be gorgeous models..the detail is great! 

Scot


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

has any one asked charlie?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dick413 on 18 Dec 2012 12:29 PM 
has any one asked charlie? 
What is there to ask really? 

"hey charlie, did you know the F3 brakes, and some paintschemes are wrong?"
most likely answer: "yes, we know.."

What is the point of asking?

Scot


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Craig, 

Thanks for the detail about the more accurate NWSL wheels for the USAT F and GP units. I think the NWSL Semi-Scale wheels that have the .100" flange will work on my layout since my Datum Precision wheels that I had made for me for use on certain Aristo locos have 0.080 inch flanges and work OK. 
When was the last time you purchased your wheels from NWSL? Even though there is the Web site, I had no luck in dealing with them on the phone in the past. 

Another alternative wheel is to transplant USAT SD 40 wheels on the gears of the GP 38. I have one SD 40 I purchased since the GP 38. Though the USAT SD 40 wheels are a bit under scale in tread diameter - they are close enough for one to reason they were prototypically turned down in a maintenance operation. 


Scott, 

It looks like your findings are the same as mine with respect to the cylinder mountings on USAT Blomberg truck side frames. 

Thank's all, 

-Ted


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't mean to stir up trouble with this, just making an observation. I don't know at this point if I will correct my three F3's or not.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Paul i didn't mean to either


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Paul 
one easy way is call usa and get the other side frames about $10 a par. i just got 2 pr. about 2 months ago


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted, 
I've never had a problem ordering or contacting them in the past regarding their products. I emailed them a while back thinking I had bought the replacement gears for the USAT loco's and they were very helpful in wanting to replace them for free because they had cracked. I've had great customer service with them. Yes the current owners are not the original owners of the company, but I think they do a good job for the product. 

Scot, 
Lots of things on the GP30 model are wrong; spacing of roof fans, steps are wrong size, no plate over the dynamic brake grid, grab irons are all the wrong shape, the pilot is wrong, etc. For the USAT claim that they are the 'ultimate in realism' I find it hard to believe. But they do provide a good starting point for kitbashing an accurate model. And they are 'good enough' for the general public. I will say that it's frustrating to the prototype modeler when we find out all these mistakes with such a large model. In HO scale a manufacturer 'could' claim that the reason things are off is because the model is so small, and the machines/molding wouldn't allow it. With 1/29 stuff its big enough that we notice the mistakes, and it's big enough that the molds can be made correctly if they want. With the GP30 no train company in any scale has gotten the fan spacing correct so I'll let USA slide on that one. I'm would guess that USAT and other companies get actual blue prints from the real companies, and aren't measuring off photo's like the rest of us. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall during that meeting. "Well this part is 6" wide by 8" wide.
Okay. Let's make it 8" by 10" and no body will see the difference."









Paul, 
A quick fix would be to buy GP sideframes and replace the F3 sideframes... Or cut and move the cylinder.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 18 Dec 2012 01:21 PM 


Scot, 
Lots of things on the GP30 model are wrong; spacing of roof fans, steps are wrong size, no plate over the dynamic brake grid, grab irons are all the wrong shape, the pilot is wrong, etc. For the USAT claim that they are the 'ultimate in realism' I find it hard to believe. But they do provide a good starting point for kitbashing an accurate model.




Well, to be fair, those sound like "prototype specific" details that probably are not technically wrong on the USA Trains GP30..

Fans look fine to me..not sure what you mean by "no plate over the dynamic brake grid"..and grab-irons can be all over the map, depending on the railroad, and the age of the locomotive.
In this kind of situation, a manufacturer will just choose one "version" of the locomotive, and paint all the road names with that one version..Which means individual details might not be exactly right for one specific railroad, but they are still "correct" for the locomotive in a general sense..

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, we all know you are a trouble maker ha ha! 

Lewis told me so! 

(could not resist) 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

SO, ............... why haven't any of you guys tried a set of PA wheels on your SD40-2 locos trucks...???mm 

The PA comes out on the money...??? a 40 in. wheel... 

needs a bit of plastic removal so the larger wheel shape clears the motor block on the outside is all... 

Dirk....All our trains are made in China - think they just do not understand plain English is all, or paint colors either for that matter....most colors are off in hue and tone..... 

OK - I stirred up a hornets nest again!!!!!! so......... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 18 Dec 2012 03:41 PM 


Dirk....All our trains are made in China - think they just do not understand plain English is all, or paint colors either for that matter....most colors are off in hue and tone..... 


Dirk - DMS Ry. 



I have considered that..when looking at the "way off" USA Trains paint schemes..

but are the Chinese *really* the ones making the decisions about painting? maybe..but that seems pretty unlikely to me. 
It seems more the likely the Chinese manufacturers simply "do what they are told"..It seems more likely the "bad color" comes
from an office in Malden Massachusetts..but I could be wrong.

Scot


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Can't say who's making the choices here, but the Chinese are the ones that are the closest to the products being made in their factories. Mass. is on the other side of the world....can't just walk in and say hey change this...! 

Final inspections.........? 

Final approval of a product...? 

Don't know - it is not worth chasing after to me, I bash the toys to suit Myself so.. as long as there is a base to work from... 

In the end there is a continuing problem - that we all agree on. and the Big 3 don't show us they want to change their game!!! sad is all!! 

also why I try to by used - if possible, then paint, but.... life is not perfect!! 

IF it was - I would be building a F-scale Standard gauge Layout!!!!!! 1/20.3 main-line stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Dirk


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 18 Dec 2012 02:45 PM 
Posted By bnsfconductor on 18 Dec 2012 01:21 PM 


Scot, 
Lots of things on the GP30 model are wrong; spacing of roof fans, steps are wrong size, no plate over the dynamic brake grid, grab irons are all the wrong shape, the pilot is wrong, etc. For the USAT claim that they are the 'ultimate in realism' I find it hard to believe. But they do provide a good starting point for kitbashing an accurate model.




Well, to be fair, those sound like "prototype specific" details that probably are not technically wrong on the USA Trains GP30..

Fans look fine to me..not sure what you mean by "no plate over the dynamic brake grid"..and grab-irons can be all over the map, depending on the railroad, and the age of the locomotive.
In this kind of situation, a manufacturer will just choose one "version" of the locomotive, and paint all the road names with that one version..Which means individual details might not be exactly right for one specific railroad, but they are still "correct" for the locomotive in a general sense..

Scot
Scot,,
No they aren't prototype specific. The fan spacing is incorrect with the three rear fans. They should be closer spaced towards the middle smaller fan. Every train company has gotten this detail wrong because the EMD blue prints have a wider fan spacing. The grab irons should be single bend grab irons instead of double bend ones. And the thing about the dynamic brake hatch I'll explain better. On the roof where the dynamic brake grid is located (and the fan) there should be a thin metal plate on the roof. If you look at a roof shot of any GP30 you can see it. The step sizes on all EMD locomotives for each series is the same. The USAT model is way off. My question is why? Who really knows. But for the 90% of the modelers it's close enough that it looks right. Call me super anal or what ever you want, but I can tell that this is off. Maybe it's because I spent 8 years around this type of stuff, and I saw details that most people will never dream of..
















Compare this to the USA roof. You'll see both the fan spacing and the metal plate I'm talking about.








I understand that no manufacturer can make an exact model of every prototype, but detail mistakes like this bug me. Heck I'm looking at one specific model number (GN 3000/BN 2200) and I'm finding changes from 1962-1990. Thankfully I know what year I'm modeling so I can change things specific to that year if I can find pictures.

Craig


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

My USAT Rock Island GP38 (advertised as a "GP38-2") can also be question as this USAT model has greater space between the two rear radiator fans with separate grille panels. This is more like the NON dash - 2 version - though it's conceivable there had been a dash -2s transition variant with NON dash 2 body work. If this is the case, it's a rather obscure variant that most RRs, including the Rock Island, would likely not have had, but that does not bother me too much. 










Anyway, to get back to the thread's original subject matter, and just so folks won't get confused by the brake cylinder placement on truck side frames, the Soo Line example GP30 shown has General Electric trucks. In this regard, apparently Soo Line traded in their old ALCOs, and EMD used their trucks on the GP30. (The GE trucks having brake cylinders outboard of the axle centers.) 

-Ted


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig's Soo drawing is interesting. I never have seen an EMD loco like that with GE trucks. Maybe thats where USAT got their inspiration for the F3 sideframes.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

It was not uncommon for trade-in units to "donate" their trucks (albeit rebuilt) for use on another manufacturer's loco. 

I seen pictures both ways (GE to EMD for GP 35's - don't recall for sure about the RR but G&MO and Southern RR comes to mind; Also, EMD to GE as in the case of Western Pacific U23Bs having Blomberg trucks from trade-in FTs) 
-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

The Soo most likely traded in trucks off an ALCO unit (That's what they look like to me?). The SOO Line Historical society was the only place I could find anything resembling a correct prototype drawing. I haven't really looked to much in detail about the GP38-2 but I'm sure I will when I acquire one. As I said before the loco and car models capture that 'good enough' look for 90% of the people. 

Craig


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, ALCO trade-ins, too, as ALCOs used GE trucks and electrical equipment. 

In books, I found pictures of the SOO GP30 with the GE trucks. I found a TPW GP35 with the GE trucks. 

Also, a Main Central GE U18B with Blomberg trucks and another Western Pacific loco, the U30B with Blomberg trucks. 
It was stated that the GE U30B with the Blomberg trucks employed GE traction motors, so I wonder if the EMD locos that used GE trucks used EMD traction motors? 

-Ted


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Ted,*

* I do know that all the old GM&O GP-30's had Alco trucks on them. I grew up 3 blocks from one of there big yards and engine shop repair facility. I seen alot of them. I think you are right about the GP-35's also. I have one of the number boards from #622 GM&O GP-35 and it had those trucks also. I have a picture somewhere of it after it was wrecked.* *Thanks, Rex*


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to get to sidetracked... The GP30 I'm modeling had trade in trucks of an EMD F unit. So it has an older style bearing rather than the newer model that USA has on the GP type trucks. But when you look at pictures you can see the timeline of how the trucks changed over the years. That's why I enjoy prototype modeling. I can model a specific year, and if I can find something that fits that year I'll model it. If it's older than that year I can't. It prevents me from buying stuff I like, but will never run. 
I would think that the traction motors would stay with the trucks... Why would EMD go to the hassle of changing the traction motor to fit the specific GE sideframes. I'm sure that the GE and EMD side frames all had different mounting methods? 

Craig


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Shop skills and part supply inventory would influence re-use of trade in parts. 
Gearing and track profile/speed also played a part.


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

It should be considered that the design of early Alco and GE four wheel road locomotive trucks was known as the AAR Type B. AAR stood for Association of American Railroads. The design was not specific to any one locomotive builder. Baldwin Sharks, for instance, also used them. EMD had their own design from the start which is the blomberg. There is also an AAR switcher truck design which EMD did use along with Alco, Baldwin, and Fairbanks Morse. 

EMD had a trade-in program where first generation locomotives such as Alco FAs and FBs could be traded in on new second generation GP30s and GP35s. The truck frames were reused although I don't remember if the traction motors were swapped out or just rebuilt. If I remember correctly, a traction motor and its gearbox is hung directly on the axle that it drives and there is a support on the other side of the motor to keep it in position. It would probably be fairly easy to change the motor and gearbox by simply replacing or re-machining the bearings and fabricating an adapter for the support. Even if only the truck frames were reused, the cost savings would add up over the locomotive order. 

A railroad which purchased locomotives through the trade-in program did not necessarily buy all of their locomotives through the program. For instance, I am aware that Frisco had a series of GP35s that ran on traded-in Alco trucks and another series of GP35s that were built new from the ground up with Blomberg trucks. 

I see that rrpicturearchives has photos of Soo GP30s #700-721. All of them were built on traded-in AAR Type B trucks (probably from Alco FAs or FBs) and without dynamic brakes. I did not check all the photos of each unit so perhaps one did wind up with blombergs somewhere in its life. Notice that the Soo locos are missing the intake vents on the side of the dynamic brake housing as well as the dynamic brake fan. The dynamic brake housing was integral to the styling of the GP30 so the housing couldn't simply be left off like other locomotives without dynamics. I suppose USAT didn't want to spend money on the additional tooling to produce a flatlander. 

-Scott


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By Santafe 2343 on 21 Dec 2012 07:08 AM 
*Ted,*

* I do know that all the old GM&O GP-30's had Alco trucks on them. I grew up 3 blocks from one of there big yards and engine shop repair facility. I seen alot of them. I think you are right about the GP-35's also. I have one of the number boards from #622 GM&O GP-35 and it had those trucks also. I have a picture somewhere of it after it was wrecked.* *Thanks, Rex*

Rex, just for you to see, here is GP35 #622 in the lead and interspersed with GP30s and other GP35s - all having GE trucks.










-Ted


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

So,has anyone modeled one? Shouldn't be hard to do.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Not anyone that I know about.. I'll be posting pictures of my GP30 build as it progresses past the bare paint stage. I've got a couple of different truck bearing types on my GP30, plus some other added/changed details! 

Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

More sideframe info.
http://www.hosam.com/emd/etrucks.html


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Update. The wrong location of the brake cylinders on my USAT F units has been bugging me ever since I stumbled on it. I could not find, or anyone else on this forum, any prototype photos that matched what USA did. So I called Mke at USAT and ordered 24 of the correct brake cylinders and swapped all of them out on my three F units. Now I can sleep at night.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, 
Did you order new sideframes or just the brake cylinders? 
Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Further Update. I now know why USA did it the way they did. The correct cylinders will hit the steps on anything less than a five foot radius!!!!! On the incorrect cylinders the actuating arm sits closer to the sideframe and the cylinder sits farther from the steps. At least I now know why they did it the way they did. It was to correct their own bad engineering. Now I need to figure out how to get around it. My layout has minimum ten foot radius,so no problem. The indoor storage and staging does have a five foot radius on the tightest curve. Thats where I noticed how close it was.
Craig,
I just ordered the cylinders.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Paul, Happy New Year 

Not surprised - I had pondered about something with respect to "mechanical" operation as to why USAT did what they did and you pinned down. 
I wonder if the reverse is true if you put the F unit side frames on the GP units? If so, maybe that's why USAT did not "standardize" on the wrong frame cylinder placement version - thank goodness. 

Thanks for the detail info. 

-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

So Paul is the inside of the cylinder machined out differently? Could you post a picture of the two brake cylinders side by side? 

Craig


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,
I just rounded off the cylinder arms on one of my corrected locos with a small sanding drum and file. Just a little,but it allows the truck to turn more. Then ran it on the layout through all my industrial track which has the sharpest curves. It all worked fine,so I'm good. Those with sharp curves will probably not be able to swap them.
Craig,
Her is a photo. The casting on the left is like comes with the GP's and would be the correct one for the F's. The one on the right is the oddball one they came up with for the F's so the truck can turn.


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

I would make new steps from brass stock. With a jig it would go fast. The USA steps are overly thick, lack detail, and not to scale anyway, according to picture comparison. With proper thin and scale steps, the clearance problem would likely go away.

it is always interesting how some things bother some folks, and other stuff does not , or bothers someone else.

jonathan/EMW


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By K27_463 on 01 Jan 2013 06:31 PM 
I would make new steps from brass stock. With a jig it would go fast. The USA steps are overly thick, lack detail, and not to scale anyway, according to picture comparison. With proper thin and scale steps, the clearance problem would likely go away.

it is always interesting how some things bother some folks, and other stuff does not , or bothers someone else.

jonathan/EMW

I thinking about doing the same thing with a GP30 detail project. If it works re-do the steps on the rest of my fleet. I'm thinking that a etched brass step would be easier...


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, 
Thanks for starting this investigation. Those two cylinders are completely different. I'm surprised no one else has not noticed this before? Even with the GP cylinder the brake lever is overly large, but it looks better than the F unit one.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Next update. 

I took a look at the Aristo Blomberg sideframe. On theirs the cylinder is set a little closer to the sideframe. I think this is more prototypical. Anyway, after looking again at the USA sideframe on the tab that holds the cylinder there is a little wider piece on the top of the tab that stops the cylinder from seating closer to the sideframe. I took a razer saw and cut about 1/8" off thus allowing the cylinder to sit 1/8" closer to the sideframe. Looks good and I think it probably would take a 4' radius. I'm going to do all mine with this mod and move on.


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