# How to mortar mountains with vertical sides



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

So I've finally finished all the mesh work for the mountains, got the 11" high and 7.5" wide clearances (and wider where they are curves) and started to mortar the sucker.


My mountain range is based on monument valley and Bryce canyon which are known for the near vertical or sometimes negative sloped sandstone walls and "tables".

I'm having a very difficult time putting the mortar on the mesh if there isn't some slope. I have both 1/2" hardware cloth mesh and lath mesh used for stucco. The lath mesh works a little better but not much. 

My best results have come from making "paddies" of mortar in my hands and them pressing them against the side and carefully sliding me hand sideways off them to avoid water/air suction pulling the paddies off as my hand moves away. I've adjusted the mortar batches from wet to dry and though wet seem to attach better, they weigh more due to having more water and are more likely to sag and fall over time. The dry really worry me about bonding well. 

I also worry though that a mountain of paddies will not be as structurally sound due to what I'd think would be like a dry pour with cement. 

I also tried another method of doing an inch or two of height at a time, imagine a 20' long "snake" of mortar. This worked okay but makes for a very hard time coming back in a few hours and carving out the detail work because you don't really have a small "spot" to focus on.

So are there any tricks to this? Different material (I really wish paper mache worked outside right now... ) I've tried using cement tools but they just push the mortar through and it breaks and falls, but maybe I'm doing it wrong, but my hands seem to be the best tool to grab a chunk of mortar, flatten, then press against the lath..

PS, I did the inside of some tunnels first where it would be hard to reach inside, then I'll bend the mesh back in place once I'm happy with the detailing work inside.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I wonder if you could try a version of the hard shell technique.. in HO we dipped strips of paper towel in the plaster and slapped them on the form. 
I think I remember somebody using burlap strips for the same effect. Dip a strip so both sides are covered. Strip sizes are determined by what you can manage. 
Kinda like building up with layers of paper mache` 
After you get the hardshell, you add texture and maybe some rock castings. 

John


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 21 Aug 2013 06:15 PM 
My mountain range is based on monument valley and Bryce canyon which are known for the near vertical or sometimes negative sloped sandstone walls and "tables".


Thought maybe you would appreciate seeing Vic and Sue Thies _Too Much Fun Railroad_ in Mission Viejo, CA. They just redid it this year and this may provide inspiration.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

That's exactly what I'm looking to do. Any idea how they did them?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, I would definitely would go with a means of getting a 'base coating'' going first, then work on small areas and the details as you can, in a more regular pattern.... 

with a sound and wet to damp solid coating you are assured of a good covering, to overlay all the rock work and details. 

But that said, I can see Disneyland now!!!!! all right-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now we are getting some where.... 

John's rag idea might be just the ticket to try.... wet strips laid up and over laid on each other, no need to bulk up the thickness till you get to the rocks them selves. just be sure some does press thru the wire cloth to adhere well on your screen in place. 

You may want to try using double layers of wire mesh to reduce the hole size some....esp. on the verticals and overhangs.. 

keep trying is the ticket. 

I know your having FUN!! 

Dirk ...


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Use TJ Lee's technique of burlap soaked in plastic cement. When that dries, add another coat of plain plastic cement. It sticks very well to itself.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 21 Aug 2013 07:48 PM 
That's exactly what I'm looking to do. Any idea how they did them? 

Professional (=$$$). They showed him pics from their vacation to Bryce and he matched it to a "T" being very proud of his work. Vic may have construction photos.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon 
Congrats on getting started, the hardware cloth may give issue , maybe not 
Are you limited to a maximum thickes in cement?? I usually pour 1-3 inch 
Thickness at a time. Trying to stay 1-2", mine all starts on the ground, 
And where mostly verticals with metal lathe and type S mortar mix 
(Stickyer) I will do 4-6" tall at a time. I have propped up wooden forms 
Like short pieces of 1x12 - 12-20" long, I have done 2 or 3 at a time. 
Type S mix will stack a little better. Spray your boards with Pam kitchen 
Spray to prevent sticking. 
Type S dries faster, now summer I lay it at around 5-7 pm and texture at 
6-7 in the morning, regular mix will texture from 10-noon. 
Pour on Saturday I keep it shaded with a damp cloths , pour in morning 
9-10 am texture at around 4-7 depends on the heat. 
When propping up a board/form , mostly I lay one end of a 2x2 with 
One screw in it next to form, and tap other end corner in the ground 
An inch or so . Negative walls may need 2 sticks to hold up. 
If you still have my number give a call . Traveling today home tonite. 
Dennis


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon,

Go here:

http://tjstrains.com/1165/building-outdoor-concrete-scenery/http://tjstrains.com/1165/building-...e-scenery/

Works well on vertical or nearly so surfaces.





























Best,
TJ


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

TJ's method is, what works best. 
and, where you got overhangs put the first burlap from the inside and smear from the outside against it later.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I used tj,s method. After you get the burlap soaked in cement on and dried we trolled on the finished coat of cement and then used NON STICK foil to add texture to the cement non stick side goes next to the cement the foil will also help hold the cement in place. Make sure you press the foil into the wet cement. Wait about 10 to 15 min and remove the foil carefully. After the foil is removed you can add color to the cement. We used a product called lithochrome it comes in different colors it is a acid that colors the cement.We found it at a cement/contrators store. You spray it on let it set for about 5 to 10 min then wash it off with water mixed baking soda it,s messy but it puts color in the cement ours have been out in the ohio weather for five years and still looks ok. We used the color faded terracotta which gave it the look of the red rock that you find out west. Hope this helps. One other thing TJ used plastic cement we used Portland cement. I don,t think the acid will work on the plastic cement. Because the Portland cement is made up of different materals than the plastic cement. I see you live in Utah so you know about red rock country.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

>TJ's method 

It's really Chris Walas' method. I got it from him and astrayelmgod. 

Best, 
TJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Brandon,

Like others have said, TJ's instructions are very informative, and Dennis' work is pretty mind-blowing. http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/In-ko-pah_Railroad.html

Just for further info, here's...

... a very interesting test that Dave B. (I think) did: http://davebodnar.com/PGRS/MountainTest 
... a nice article: http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer...cliffs.htm
... a crazy-big helix encased in concrete (is it still there and working??): http://www.mysticmountainarts.com/M...ction.html

You're doing great work, I'm looking forward to seeing more! 

===>Cliff


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Since I've moved on from the vertical mortar question, I've updated my build thread with my results. My thread is here if anyone wants to meander over to see how things turned out. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...122394/afv/topic/afpgj/10/Default.aspx#307494 

In short, I fully agree the burlap would have been the easiest, cheapest, and quickest way. I ended up getting a little stuck on the "snake" method because it gives you more depth and definition on the vertical walls, but you can only do 1-2 rows (2"-6" max) at a time and it's VERY slow. I also tried ball (failure in looks IMO), paddies (works okay actually, if not on completely vertical or negative slope sections), smear method (works well on vertical and negative slopes but looks bad IMO and I'd probably do burlap next time and I'm debating using burlap anyway and covering over what is currently there because I'd pick lack of depth/detail over how it turned out, though I'm waiting until later on in the process in case I find a new trick or something along the way to help me fix that area. 

Anyway, I really appreciate the help as it gave me some good ideas to test out and see what worked well and didn't for my own skill level.


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