# K4 on Ebay Buyer Beware



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Its Back. The same K4 that previously sold on MLS to ConrailRay and the guy stiffed him. Its up for sale on Ebay this time though its still owed to Ray still. At least as soon as it sells on Ebay is becomes a criminal case from the previous civil case.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aster-live-...500wt_1415


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, unfortunately it is. There's no mention of the alcohol conversion in the item description, however look carefully at the photos, specifically the cab, under the cab, and between the cab and tender. There's clearly a metal tube (from the alcohol burners) sticking down from under the cab and you can see the standard aster alcohol tube hanging off the tender. There's also and extra water control valve under the cab (not exactly sure what that is, but I know the plumbing was reworked) and you can also see an extra control in the cab coming off the back head for the blower. And to top it off, its a 3 day auction. 

I have pictures that were sent to me in October that exactly match this altered alcohol arrangement, and a picture of the serial number. Will post them when I can get them hosted. 

I would like to think he is selling this to pay me back, but I'm sure it's for the large Aster Challenger payment that is due next month. 

Thanks for your time. 
-Ray


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Ray, 
Last time you were responding to this subject, you spoke of your lawyer. 
Do we assume that nothing has been sorted out yet? 
If it is the same loco, contact Ebay and have them stop the sale. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you contacted E-Bay of your concern about this sale? Bringing the subject up here may be a good thing for those of us that read this forum, but does nothing for the thousands of others that do not read this forum and allows a possible crook to get away with it. Heck send the seller a question asking if this is the engine that you bought and paid for and didn't receive. See if the question shows up in the sale listing. See if the seller responds. Maybe they are just using some photo they found on the web and it is not the actual engine for sale (not necessarily a nice thing to do but it is done often by those that are either unable to take a photo or too lazy to even try).


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

How did you pay for the engine. If you used Paypal you should have been able to get your money refunded since you did not get the engine.
I have never had any trouble buying on Ebay but I will probably not be making anymore major purchases ther.
Hope you get it cleared up and as others have indicated, contact Ebay and report this guy. The rest of up cannot do it becuse we are not envolved and could be sued ourselves.

I went to the Ebay site and asked the gut if this was the same engine sold recently. Also in next to last pic. There seems to be a flex gas line laying on table.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Charles, in this case the seller refers to ther roller stand in the photos and references them being sold in a seperate auction listing. Therefore, one can conclude that the pictures are those of the sellers.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 15 Jul 2012 02:25 PM 
Charles, in this case the seller refers to ther roller stand in the photos and references them being sold in a seperate auction listing. Therefore, one can conclude that the pictures are those of the sellers. 
Jeremiah
Where is Charles on this thread.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 15 Jul 2012 12:08 PM 
Have you contacted E-Bay of your concern about this sale? Bringing the subject up here may be a good thing for those of us that read this forum, but does nothing for the thousands of others that do not read this forum and allows a possible crook to get away with it. Heck send the seller a question asking if this is the engine that you bought and paid for and didn't receive. See if the question shows up in the sale listing. See if the seller responds. Maybe they are just using some photo they found on the web and it is not the actual engine for sale (not necessarily a nice thing to do but it is done often by those that are either unable to take a photo or too lazy to even try). Art
See quote...that would be Charles


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## nsimpson (Mar 15, 2010)

About 18 months ago I won an Ebay auction for an Aster P8 built up kit. Being relatively new to live steam and with my heart pounding I put in my final bid of $2750 in the dying seconds and won the auction. I had researched Ebay and found advice to use 'escrow' for purchases over $500 and set up an account immediately after the auction. While a little tricky to find the 'escrow' option, it allows for the buyer to receive and inspect the item prior to the purchase price being released from the third party in trust. I had agreed to pay all escrow charges (which were very reasonable), but still did not hear from the seller for 3 days. After 2 weeks of very difficult language/communication problems and several calls to Ebay, they took charge of the matter and cancelled the sellers account. My belief is that it was a case of 'seller remorse' (expecting a much higher price) or possibly a scam. Either way I consider myself very lucky, as I subsequently bought one of the remaining P8 kits and it being finally built, will go to NSS next week to double head with another P8, and it runs like a 'swiss watch' (Aster). 

Cheers, Neil. 
p.s. I only hope that Ray achieves resolution to his situation as from my experience the live steam group is one of very respectful, helpful people.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Neil, glad you got your kit built.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 15 Jul 2012 04:04 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 15 Jul 2012 02:25 PM 
Charles, in this case the seller refers to ther roller stand in the photos and references them being sold in a seperate auction listing. Therefore, one can conclude that the pictures are those of the sellers. 
Jeremiah
Where is Charles on this thread.


(He isn't. And if he was, he'd not be allowed to use a keyboard since he doesn't have a steam powered one.







)


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## StevenJ (Apr 24, 2009)

To be fair to ebay I've sold two live steam engines and bought one. I purchased a RH Sammie from England that was as it was stated in the ad. I received the package within a week and was extremely happy with my purchase. Yes there are scammers on the 'evil'bay too but thankfully ebay has repercussions for people who scam.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't think Ebay is being discouraged here, just the possibility of what Jason and Ray have brought to the attention of the live steamers here. A warning about this particular auction. In any event, ebay is definitely not the evil that some have made it out to be on forums like this one. 

Ultimately, we the buyers should always be cautious. Take this auction for example. Throw out what is known. The seller offers no returns on a live steam engine which was from the early '80s and one that has been known to have a few issues. Those are some red flags. If I were to put down that kind of money under these circumstances, I'd want to see it fired up first. Anyhoo.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

I always use the feedback rating as an indicator of the sellers status. If they have negative feedback I pass. The seller in question has very low feedback number and no feedback as a seller. There are Ebay sellers that have thousands of feedback and run a respectable business. 

Steve


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Gents, On the first line of the Original post he says the deal went through MLS.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good things come to those who actually read the OP !!! 

Greg


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Gents. We know. We are talking about the engine currently listed on ebay. Jason was making a connection to that listing AND the deal with Ray. Yes, good things do come to those that READ.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 16 Jul 2012 03:48 PM 
Gents, On the first line of the Original post he says the deal went through MLS..... Thank God somebody FINALLY read what the OP actually said!







Kudos John.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

What the heck. Is this the twilight zone?


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

NO --- It is a BLACK HOLE!


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 16 Jul 2012 03:48 PM 
Gents, On the first line of the Original post he says the deal went through MLS..
Regardless of what was said in first post. It he guy stiffed him so what matters where the first sale was made.
If it maters, the seller never answered my question about the sell of the engine in the past or wheter it had been listed on Ebay before.
Where you guys two days ago when this post first started so you could have alerted us few to our inepness. sicLOL


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

There was no ineptitude. The issue Jason brought up with this auction was legit. The ebay auction and Ray's deal were two separate things joined by a common denominator in this thread. What was discussed concerning Ebay is good to know for all potential buyers.


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi All, 

No, I obviously never received the loco since it was up on ebay, and never received my money back yet from the original deal through the Classifieds section here in late September 2011. 
And no I didn't win or even bid on the auction on ebay, although it was tempting to bid on and see what would've happened.  
Seems to take quite some time to go through the legal process, but its in the works. 
I've contacted my local police about the criminal activity since its technically mine, the local sheriffs dept. by the seller, ebay, and of course my attorney. 

All the live steamers I own I purchased second hand, and never had an issue in this community. Too bad there's always one in the crowd and unfortunately am learning my lesson the hard way. 

Thanks for everyone's concerns and help. Hopefully this situation will be remedied soon. 

Sincerely, 
-Ray


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Hate that you're having to go through this over a hobby meant to be fun.


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## ConrailRay (Jan 2, 2008)

All,
Thanks for everyone's support so far! And not to bore anyone to death with this, but came across these postings last week and thought some of you might find this ridiculous continuing saga amusing (I know I can't figure this mess out at this point!) And yes, this did close on evilbay on Jul 16th, but who knows what happened to those auctions as I haven't seen any change in feedback.


Trains!! *Aster* live *steam* PRR K4s G gauge 6 days ago *...* I have a live *steam* powered locomotive made by *Aster* Hobby of Japan. It is aPRR K4s 4-6-2. It is in 1:32 scale and runs on 45mm track (g *...*
yubasutter.craigslist.org/clt/3160510924.html

Trains!! Live *steam* PRR K4 made by *Aster* Jul 24, 2012 *...* Live *steam* G gauge 1:32 scale PRR K4s made by *Aster* Hobby of Japan. Loco is in great condition and runs very well. It was converted from *...*
sacramento.craigslist.org/clt/3160456574.html

Trains!! Live *steam* loco PRR K4 G gauge Jul 31, 2012 *...* I have a live *steam* powered locomotive made by *Aster* Hobby of Japan. It is aPRR K4s 4-6-2. It is alcohol fired. Was butane fired at one time *...*
yubasutter.craigslist.org/tag/3160394607.html


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

And this surprises anyone? Craig'slist is worse than evilbay!! The only reason I am still following this thread is because I want to find out when and what the resolution to this scam eventually will be. (Wouldn't it be funny if a sherrif'f's deputy showed up on this fellow's doorstep with a warrant to search for "stolen merchandise!" This piece of work thinks he is completely untouchable and he's getting pretty arrogant about it!) I wouldn't be surprised if he has multiple items listed in multiple places. If only four people are scammed each month and the average is $2500 per scam, he nets $10,000 a month! Then say someone sics a lawyer on him and the heat gets so hot for him that he eventually gives the item up. He's made beacoup bucks selling the item multiple times! He's using the system to work his scam but he is either one of the most arrogant scammers or he is one of the stupidest to keep this up this long. Don't be surprised if he disappears! My guess is that relatively soon afterward, there will be a "new" seller on ebay (and Craig'slist) that will claim he "purchased" the item recently and is wanting to sell it now... please send a cashier's check as he doesn't use Paypal...) I really hope that I'm just jaded or paranoid or whatever but I have seen too much of this stuff in the last few years and it's only getting worse! I wish you good luck!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I have been reluctant to enter this "he said, she said" type of discussion, but here goes!!! 
I have known the seller for a few years. 
He was at the NSS Sacramento and was running the K4, and had it on the sales table, but there were no takers, probably due to these MLS postings and the fear of not knowing the truth. 
He freely discussed with any of us there, his side of the story which was, surprise, surprise, very different from those that began this posting. 
So, what is the truth? 
Maybe we will never know, but since he can't clear his name here on MLS, let's let the legal system work it out. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ummm.... not wanting to pour gasoline on the fire, but why can't "he" clear his name on MLS? 

It's only fair to hear the other side of the story... (of course it might turn into a big debate, but if I was "he" I would at least state my position once publicly... ) 

Greg


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

MLS really isn't the place to clear his name. It appears that this issue is working its way through the legal system. Upon resolution of that case, then we will know what is right.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ShadsTrains on 15 Aug 2012 02:44 PM 
MLS really isn't the place to clear his name. 
But it was the place that allowed him to sell and in the end scam money through MLS. Yea that makes sense. And after it happened doesnt allow to warn other users that he is trying to sell it again and in effect steal again as that thread was deleted.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Hold on. According to the ebay auction the engine sold in July. Now it is listed in the above links after that date for sale again. What am I missing here?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 15 Aug 2012 06:20 PM 
Hold on. According to the ebay auction the engine sold in July. Now it is listed in the above links after that date for sale again. What am I missing here? 
Jeremiah
The one listed on Ebay now is electric version,


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Art, 
I'm not speaking of any engine Currently listed on ebay. I was referring to the alcohol fired K4 that sold and was listed on ebay in the link on the first post of this thread. Now that engine was listed on craigslist.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeremiah, 
I was told that the sale didn't go through in the end due to a PayPal problem. 
Who knows! 
As Shad says - Maybe we will find out eventually when the legal system completes it's workings. 
and Jason, I would recommend using the word 'alleged' here and there, just in case. 
I know that you are close to Ray so see it from that side, but you do need to be careful how things are phrased. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Sale didn't go through. Ok. That clears up that. Yeah. Always two sides of a coin.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 15 Aug 2012 06:47 PM 
Jeremiah, 
I was told that the sale didn't go through in the end due to a PayPal problem. 
Who knows! 
As Shad says - Maybe we will find out eventually when the legal system completes it's workings. 
and Jason, I would recommend using the word 'alleged' here and there, just in case. 
I know that you are close to Ray so see it from that side, but you do need to be careful how things are phrased. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 


David, 
Yes Paypal issues, due to Ebay opening a case against the seller as the serial number in the auction photo matched the serial and photos Ray received for the sale. Paypal had a case opened for possible fuaud and requested to hold the payment for the suction for up to 45 days to sort out the claim on Rays behalf, In the mean time he apparenrtly cancelled the sale as it was closed and funds never transferred through Paypal. 

Notice in the craigslist ads he blacks out the serial number in the cab! He is trying to swindle too many people in the same ring.

Alleged???? - You are not the only person that spoke to him. Myself along with Ray have too - Neither plan to refund the money as "it has already been spent on other things and is not there to refund". Should he wish to clear up the whole mess he is welcome to mail that check or even the engine or show up on MLS again and state anything about the transaction. He does read MLS as his user name shows up in the users online list. After all he did receive and cash the payment. Nothing was sent for said payment, YES that is THEFT, any which way you look at it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, I deleted the original thread because real names and user names were being publicly used. At the time I told Ray that, since the original situation resulted from an MLS Classified, he was welcome to post a warning without any personally identifiable information in the general interest of the membership. I just had to again edit out personally identifiable information. And as has already been said, the public forums are not the place to resolve this dispute. That's for the law and the courts to decide and apparently that is already in progress. I've talked to Ray personally and he seemingly understands that MLS is not the place for this dispute resolution, and that we on the site are in a rather "he said, he said" position with no real evidence on either side and only the opposing word of the respective positions.


As this thread has now served its purpose as a "warning" and as it is again drifting towards what could be construed as libel (defined as defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures), and for the protection of everyone involved I think it's time to lock it. Anyone interested in further information as things progress can contact the parties involved off forum. Any new threads regarding this matter will be deleted. Thanks for your cooperation.


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