# Attaching Aluminum to Aluminum



## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I am designing and building a carrier for my Triplex and currently have a 4 foot length of 6" aluminum Instrumentation tray. To this tray I want to attach 3/4" wide by 1/8" thick aluminum guide plates/ribbons for the loco wheels. 

Well, we do know some of the options: 

A) Drill, countersink, tap and screw. 

B) Drill, countersink and nut and bolt the two together. 

C) Some kind of mystical crimping ass'y which I know nothing of. (and not interested in) 

Finally, a brain wave and a forum search on "glue" did not quite get me the answer I need. 

So the million dollar question... is there a "glue" out there for aluminum to aluminum? 

Thanks in advance for your replies. 

gg 

PS: This instrument tray stuff is really neat. Loco transport, bridge construction, wall displays etc. Strong, light with no flex. Will post pics later.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Pop rivets are more dependable, though I'm pretty sure that areospace has some good glues. 

Back to the rivets; if you can drill a hole and squeeze a handle, you can do rivets. 

Might want to widen your horizon, it's not an expensive tool. 

John


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 16 Aug 2009 05:12 PM 
Pop rivets are more dependable, though I'm pretty sure that areospace has some good glues. 

Back to the rivets; if you can drill a hole and squeeze a handle, you can do rivets. 

Might want to widen your horizon, it's not an expensive tool. 

John 
Agreed, I must think outside the box.... ummmm... Nice idea this rivet bit. Results are low profile and would not interfere with loco or track loading side. Aluminum rivets and where do I buy this fearless machine. Auto parts store comes to mind off the cuff. 

Thanks for the feedback John. 

Gavin


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

One time use? Harbor freight..... 

google it 

your welcome 
John


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Someone posted this link on the Aristo board. Looks pretty neat - http://www.durafix.com/ 

-Brian


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Depending on the thickness of the aluminium, the DuraFix, Alumaloy and other Aluminium "welding" (?) stuff can work very well.

I filled a 1/2 inch square hole in a 1.25 square 6061 alminium bar 8 inches long (the hole was through the 1.25 inch thickness of the bar). I clamped the metal bottom of a Pringles' potato chips "can" to form a dam on the bottom of the hole. I had to heat the bar for about 10 minutes before I could get it hot enough for the rod to melt when touching the sides of the hole, but once I got it H*O*T!!!! it worked quite well. I had one small dribble out the bottom where the metal can bottom warped a bit.

I did note that in this 1/2x1/2x1.25 hole had a LOT of shrinkage as it cooled. I had to build up mound on top so I didn't end up with a dimple. I then did some grinding and heavy sanding to get the filler material down flush with the original surface of the bar. Once ground down it was just a bit darker in color than the bar.

I re-drilled the hole in the other direction through the bar and found that drilling the filler material was much easier and 'cleaner' than through the bar. The filler material is quite solid in the original hole... i.e.: it bonded well.

I have not tried welding a bar to another bar or plate with this stuff yet, but I suspect it will be good for that AFTER I get good at working with it (like any welding!). There does seem to be a bit of an art and feel for how to heat the material to be bonded.

My son did some welding with it on a lawn mower deck and he was not satisfied with the looks of the work so he reheated it "just a bit" to try to get the surface less blobby and ALL the welding material dribbled off onto the ground, so be careful just how hot you get it or make sure it is held in place via dams or such. The stuff is rather expensive and I figure he put about $1.00 worth on the ground!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been wondering the same thing. I'd like to build a carrier for my Mallet. Lowes has lots of aluminum stock.


I've thought of using Aluminum angles for the base and "rails" that fit outside the rails. Lowes has 2inch 1/16th thick angle for $20 for a 4ft section. Hmm, that's about the whole budget for the project. I'd use a thinner piece to go over the rail head itself when you set it in place on the track.They have 1 1/2 inch aluminum angles that are thinner at a more reasonable price, but I worry about kinking it while carrying it. 


Here's a quick sketch. I'd use a 1 inch dowell for the handle.












Long term plan is to make a box that fits over it. It would have a cutout so you pick the whole works up by the dowell handle. That's for piling things up in the car for a trip to a show or something.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I think that I will go the Rivet route. 

Torby, have you examined the Split Jaw eazi-loader? I will take some pics later in the week of this Instrument tray idea. 

Thanks for the great ideas. 

gg


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Good Afternoon,


3M VHB 2 sided tape, talk to a rep localy (I use R.S. Hughes, Inc.) they can recomend the correct product and prep. If you are lucky thay may be able to give you samples big enough to do the job. 


Phillip


PS If it is critical add a few rivits, Marson has a good slection of aluminum rivets.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By 3lphill on 17 Aug 2009 02:11 PM 
Good Afternoon,


3M VHB 2 sided tape, talk to a rep localy (I use R.S. Hughes, Inc.) they can recomend the correct product and prep. If you are lucky thay may be able to give you samples big enough to do the job. 


Phillip


PS If it is critical add a few rivits, Marson has a good slection of aluminum rivets. 

Phillip; 

A long day at the office and I come back and see a very nice idea from you. Make my day or what. I need to evaluate re tape thickness and impact on overall height etc. 3M makes good product however I do find that it will weaken with time and lateral stresses as light as they may be. Here however, lateral forces are minimal at best and strength can be had with laying a ribbon along the length of the aluminum strip. So maybe "drying out" may be the limiting factor? Who cares if it takes 5 years to do it.... Repairs are easy. 

Thanks for the new concept. Easily tried.... can always revert to Rivets later if need be. 

Gavin


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. Could put handles on that ezloader.... http://www.railclamp.com/displayCat...tegoryId=4


The loco and tender are about 44 inches long.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Phillip, your PS strikes my funny bone.... Add rivets for protection? But your tape/glue is supposed to be better, isn't it? So if I'm adding rivets why bother with the glue? 

I'd rather spend the EFFORT and get a sound mechanical connection than be subject to variables such as environment and handling. Expensive heavy locos get special treatment, not short cuts. 
But that's just me. 

John


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## pinewoods (Jan 20, 2009)

Where I am employed we use 3M VHB tape to attach polyester sheet to powder coated steel and glass to aluminum. This adhesive holds up very well in our industrial control application. It is important that the surfaces be cleaned and that the adhesive be allowed to 'cure' for about 24 hours before loading. Use denatured alcohol for cleaning the surfaces prior to applying the tape.


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## Schlosser (Jan 2, 2008)

I know nothing about aluminum but I'll agree with Totalwreckers post. I've been victimized too many times by new-fangled shortcuts or inventions. Like the time IBM replaced all their expensive cam followers with sintered iron cam followers. In a short time, they would stop rolling and became efficient files, and the cams they were following became nice circles.

Replacing all those cams was not CHEAP.

My 1960 Dodge stationwagon had linoleum flooring glued to the metal. Did it stay glued? No. Big company, stuff goes out the door, bright-idea-guy gets promoted and I have an ugly car.

Stick with what you know works if it's going to be with you for a while.

Art


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Do a search on this site for "Carrier" and you will find lots of info you might find of value in what you are building.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

You don't need to use the VHB tape for aluminum to aluminum - VHB stands for "very high bond", and is designed for materials with low surface energy (many plastics), and is fairly expensive stuff. There are many epoxy, acrylic and urethane adhesives that will work for aluminum/aluminum. One product that will work for your application, and is handy to have in your toolbox, is acrylic transfer tape: http://www.mcmaster.com/#adhesive-transfer-tape/=38udrq It is pure acyrlic adhesive, with no carrier ("glue on a roll"). Your application has a lot of surface area, and the only load is in shear - perfect for an adhesive.


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## 3lphill (Feb 22, 2008)

Good Afternoon 
The 3m line of tapes is vast and I have inaccuratelly lumped them together. With in the line there are a number of choices for thickness and substrates I always talk to a rep before applying one in a new application. Given the factors of area force and force direction there advice is priceless. And sometimes the tester samples are enough to do the job with. But if it is important and failure is not an option redundancy is a good thing. So when we needed to build 40' tall clear, light weight, columns for the opera "War and Peace" that had to ship to St Petersburg Russia we used PETG sheet stock rolled the long way joined with a clear VHB tape and (being paranoid) rivets spaces 18" apart. Just rivets might have torn out just tape might have popped free in the cold during shipping. So far the set has been used by a couple of different Opera companies in the last 10 years and I have not heard any issues with the columns. 
Phillip


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

John,

Go you.

Rivets rule. Or screws 'n nuts, or screws 'n threads.

Ol' Vulp


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Well there is merit to the good ole mechanical techniques... 













I find that aluminum is quite machineable and can be drilled easily. Yes those rivets were fun to install as well. QA is critical so I used a caboose... 











The Triplex, in theory, can now be loaded onto the track in one piece and stored by reversing the loading action. Secret however is to make sure that the power to the track is OFF when loading or unloading. By using Instrumentation channel I now have sides where I can drill and bolt in the wood framing to make the whole unit "toteable". 












See any gaffers ????? 










I personally see lots !


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

We all see our own vivdly.... but it's not my place to mention yours... 

I'd suggest 2 handles and balanced with the loco in it... 

Looking good 

John


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 22 Aug 2009 06:02 PM 
We all see our own vivdly.... but it's not my place to mention yours... 

I'd suggest 2 handles and balanced with the loco in it... 

Looking good 

John 
Good John and thanks. Don't be shy to comment on Phase 2 or even this one for that matter. Constructive feed back is good. 

This basic unit will get my Triplex to the train show in September. Over the winter, I will construct the "case" and your comments combined with others are valuable. 2 handles yes, balancing yes.. need to "lock loco" position. can do this many ways. (oops ... need ideas)








My wife veto'd Cherry wood as a case... (damm).. Will probably do Oak or some other "refined" wood. After all this is a "triplex" .

What I REALLY like about Aluminum and use of this material in this type of project is the fact that I can use my woodworking equipment to "work" it. Material is in house for a trestle... a veneered aluminum instrumentation tray spanning 4 feet ! No sweat, my planned tressle span is 4" wide when I invert the channel. For me classic Loco overhang which is what I want. 

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

One handle will do fine...........


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## MasonsDad (Feb 7, 2008)

Hiya Amigo
There was a sealer/ Glue put out by 3M and its grey in color and the stuff is virtually bullet proof, we used it alot in the sealing of all weather tight areas on both the railroad and building of Bulk feeder truck trailers and its pretty good stuff, I know that once it has cured 24 hours you would be hard pressed to take it apart, it resists most chemicals after curing like acetone, MEK which both are pretty nasty chemicals and makes a great seal and Glue, very plyable, weather resistant, and no caustic fumes to speak of or that I remember but like all chemicals use it in well ventilated areas, hope this helps


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks Ben, 

Yes for now I did rivoting... Another project coming re bridges that will need glue. 

lots of it 

gg


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

The duafix is fantastic. I have built 2 bridges so far using the stock from HD. Like it was said once you get used to it it is easy and stronger the material you are using it for. Practice on some scrap and use MAPP gas not propane it will give you a smaller and hotter flame. I bought 2 lbs and still have more than half. It works on any metal that is non magnetic. Jake


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