# How Much Run Time Are You Actually Getting On Your Li-ion Pack?



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

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I have an AristoCraft FA that I had converted to run on track power or NiCads with the onboard train Engineer so many moons ago. I had 15 "sub-C" cells in that thing but they no longer take a charge.

I want to replace them with 14.8V of Li-ion so that I can run the track cleaner around. I don't need a great deal of speed for that operation and 14.8 volts should be more than enough.

It is easy enough to calculate the battery life from the amp-hours, but what are people using (e.g., 5,200 mAH) and getting (e.g., 3 hr of actual running) in real life?

Thanks


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I also use Li Ion 14.8V usually 4400 or 6600 mAh cell packs, for everything (FA, Forney, C-16, Mallet, RS-3, C-19) and they give me all the speed and power I require. That said, I have never just run them after a full charge until they stopped. My usual MO is run my home layout for a few hours then put them away. Not much help, eh? Probably the best information I have is running the Aristo C-16 and FA at Marty's, over 3 days, probably 3-4 hours of track time, they were still going strong. 

An equally important issue to me is how to best treat the lithium batteries to maximize their long term life. Researching this, I have found some conflicting information, but that that will derail your thread!

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Which track cleaner? LGB track cleaner likes a higher voltage for the cleaning wheels, less 'bouncing' thus less striping.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Which track cleaner? LGB track cleaner likes a higher voltage for the cleaning wheels, less 'bouncing' thus less striping.


My own design.



http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0007_3_.JPG




http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_000911.JPG




http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00119.JPG



The onboard motor can run from an on-board 11.4 V Li-ion pack or from track power. The switch on the coupler turns off the motor unless the cleaner is being actively pushed or pulled to keep from grinding holes in the track. 

Abrasive wheels were $51/100. (LGB wheels are ~$30/set.)

The FA will push/pull this around to get things started.

Here you see where I pushed it by hand back and forth and back and forth. Note that one of the abrasive wheel axles had come loose, but I changed CA and this is no longer a problem.



http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0005_3_.JPG


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I purchased a 14.8, 5,200 mAH pack on the bay for $28 shipped from the US. At that price, even if it doesn't last it's no great loss.

Does anyone have recommendations for a charger that is commensurate with the cost of the battery?


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## Sgtmacfie (Jan 2, 2017)

Here is a charger that I got for the same size battery. It will charge any type battery though.






Amazon.com: Tenergy TB6-B Balance Charger Discharger 1S-6S Digital Battery Pack Charger for NiMH/NiCD/Li-PO/Li-Fe Packs LCD Hobby Battery Charger w/ Tamiya/JST/EC3/HiTec/Deans Connectors + Power Supply 01435: Toys & Games


Amazon.com: Tenergy TB6-B Balance Charger Discharger 1S-6S Digital Battery Pack Charger for NiMH/NiCD/Li-PO/Li-Fe Packs LCD Hobby Battery Charger w/ Tamiya/JST/EC3/HiTec/Deans Connectors + Power Supply 01435: Toys & Games



smile.amazon.com


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I was looking at those. That is way too much to pay. They are a lot cheaper on ebay ($20 new under Chinese lable) but I didn't want to have to buy a separate wall wart.



I got one for $20 shipped that does 2,3,4 cells Li-poly/LiFe and can charge at 1, 2, or 3 amps (including the plug/supply.)

Thanks.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Your post went a little sideways on run time. We have customers reporting 3-5 hours run time. Selling 3.4 AH and 6.8AH, 14.8V. Depending what will fit.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Are they running continuously, non-stop, non-slow down, lap after lap after lap as you do cleaning track?

George Schreyer showed amp draw for the FA at ~2 amps pulling a train. Works out to a bit over 2-1/2 hr. I may do a bit better without a full train.

My current issue is how to easily get at the 5 pin balanced charge plug. If I used the combined cell output plug, I already have a 2-pin charge jack in place. But I think the balanced input is the better way to go.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The AW packs have a built in balance board.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I guess I could add the balance board through the 5 pin plug and run the single plug out to the charge jack. They are relatively cheap.

I've been trying to figure out how to get the 5-pin plug out of the engine unseen. The 2-pin is already in place.

Thanks for the idea.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Wireless system installed in LGB's Vandy Tender for their Mogul. With the tender coal load in place its all hidden.
I did this install 10 years ago with QSI Decoder, QSI Wireless Receiver, 1S1P six cell 22V Li-Ion 2200 mAh 
battery with balance charge pigtail. 

JST2 rectangular socket = balance pigtail

3.5mm charge jack is wired to charge and turn on/off the loco.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

So if I got something like this, I could simply run wires from the B+ and B- to the charging jack _and_ to power the engine motors (in parallel), and plug the batterys' 5-pin connector the into the board's 5-pin connector and mount the board in the engine with the battery?

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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Todd

Yes, you can employ the depicted Protection Circuit Board with cell balance capabilities. While said PCB is much better than a "typical" Li-Ion protection board it does not afford you the ability to monitor all aspects and or features realized of a true Balance Charger in play. That said with the inexpensive charger you purchased, you've already forgone said features in favor of convince and or simplicity. A balance charger such as the Tenergy TB6 mentioned above is very desirable herein IMO...

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Treeman said:


> The AW packs have a built in balance board.


Mike,

Based on specification sheets posted on Air-Wires' battery offerings, their batteries utilize a typical Li-Ion PCB (no balance features)... Do you have information and or knowledge contrary to my assertion?

Michael


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Michael Glavin said:


> Todd
> 
> Yes, you can employ the depicted Protection Circuit Board with cell balance capabilities. While said PCB is much better than a "typical" Li-Ion protection board it does not afford you the ability to monitor all aspects and or features realized of a true Balance Charger in play. That said with the inexpensive charger you purchased, you've already forgone said features in favor of convince and or simplicity. A balance charger such as the Tenergy TB6 mentioned above is very desirable herein IMO...
> 
> Michael


The charger arrived yesterday and its instructions say that the *both* the 5-pin plug and the two pin plug must be used when charging. So if I use an on-board protection circuit board like that pictured above, it would not work with this charger anyway. Luckily, these things are all fairly cheap.

With the protection board, I guess that I would just use a ~16.8 vdc wall wart of sufficient amperage and leave this charger in the box on the shelf for another project.

Either that, or I'm toying with the idea of just making the body easily removable for battery access. Then I could use this charger.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I was hoping that just the two banana plugs could be used at the full B+, B- voltage varing the current with the switch allowing use of the protection board, but I guess not.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

toddalin said:


> I was hoping that just the two banana plugs could be used at the full B+, B- voltage varing the current with the switch allowing use of the protection board, but I guess not.


If you get Tenergy charger you can do this. Yes you could technically use a wall wart, would I NO! 

Why can't you find a place to make the balance pigtail socket available? You can buy extension cables.

Michael


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Michael Glavin said:


> If you get Tenergy charger you can do this. Yes you could technically use a wall wart, would I NO!
> 
> Why can't you find a place to make the balance pigtail socket available? You can buy extension cables.
> 
> Michael


Sure, I could carve out the bottom of the engine for the 5-pin socket and use an extension and have even considered and even started this to some extent cutting out a divider section of plastic on the engine's floor.

The obvious problem using a wall wart is that you don't know when you've attained full charge unless you get a wart dedicated to this. There are some "combinations" of protection boards with their dedicated charge units sold together for a bit more $$$. 

Also, BION, when you consider shipping, the cost of the extension cable is almost the cost of a protection board. Crazy.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Today I connected the 14.8V, 5,200 mA battery up in the AristoCraft FA after making the appropriate plugs to make it work and be able to charge it. This is for the active track cleaner I previously made.

It has to be over 15 years ago that I installed the onboard Train Engineer in this engine with 15 C-size Nicads. Talk about a load! The Nicads never lasted and went flat so I pulled them out after the first couple years and the engine has only been run (very rarely) from track power since (switchable).

I cleaned the contacts on the old transmitter and put batteries in it.

When I connected the Li-poly cells and switched to the on-board system, the fan instantly came on. I brought up the speed on the throttle (engine laying on its side) and the wheels started to move and responded to the transmitter controls. _I didn't even have to link the transmitter and receiver after no power for all these years!_ It just worked right. Boy was I suprised!


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Michael Glavin said:


> Mike,
> 
> Based on specification sheets posted on Air-Wires' battery offerings, their batteries utilize a typical Li-Ion PCB (no balance features)... Do you have information and or knowledge contrary to my assertion?
> 
> Michael


I was just saying that they do not have an external balance connection, just require two wires to charge. Very simple clean install.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I was able to use the existing plug on the bottom of the FA for the two "heavy wires" from the battery. I found that I had a similar 5 pin plug and "board jack" removed from an old VCR that I could use to make an extension for the other plug. This comes out between the utility box and air tank with just a bit of trimming on the air tank. When not being charged, the plug slips into this space and with a bit of black marker pen, is totally unnoticable.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The FA that will push/pull the track cleaner is done with 14.8V, 5,200mA Li-poly cells.

The guts secured inplace:










Track/battery/primary charge jack wiring:










I made an extension for the 5-pin plug using an old plug, its wiring and board header from an old VCR. This is how I ran the "cell wiring" for the balance feature out through the lower box side:



And the adapter for the "power plug" connected to the charger.










Now if we could just tuck that 5-pin plug in someplace inconspicuous... This required a bit of trimming on the curved edge of the air cylinder but it is not noticable.










... With easy access:










Voila!


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The FA that will push/pull the track cleaner is done with 14.8V, 5,200mA Li-poly cells.

The guts secured inplace:
View attachment 61577



Track/battery/primary charge jack wiring:
View attachment 61575



I made an extension for the 5-pin plug using an old plug, its wiring and board header from an old VCR. This is how I ran the "cell wiring" for the balance feature out through the lower box side:
View attachment 61578



And the adapter for the "power plug" connected to the charger.
View attachment 61579



Now if we could just tuck that 5-pin plug in someplace inconspicuous... This required a bit of trimming on the curved edge of the air cylinder but it is not noticable.
View attachment 61580



... With easy access:
View attachment 61581



Voila!
View attachment 61582


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Double post.


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