# Aster 241P Kit build



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

So it begins having the opportunity to build one of the most complex and detailed locomotive ever by Aster.

Aster 241P Kit build


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I don't know Charles, you look far too organised.
Neil and I have decided to help Dan Pantages out with his Challenger by opening all the bags, including the nuts and bolts, and emptying them into a big container, and then telling him to get on with it.
I mean, how difficult could it be!!!!
Looking forward to following the build as you go along.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Charles,

The best part in live steam loco is assembly the kit yourself. Unfortunately, I am not gifted to do such task. Look forward to the build log of the 241P. 

Nate


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

> Neil and I have decided to help Dan Pantages out with his Challenger by opening all the bags, including the nuts and bolts, and emptying them into a big container


 Thanks David but I don't need help, I've already done this.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Having recently completed an Aster Castle build I can attest to the fact that the build process was intensely pleasurable. Reflection on the assembly, inspection and testing process undoubtedly contributes - and will continue to contribute - to the experience of joy I feel watching it run, and _listening_ to it run . . . so far only on the rolling road! I am confident that it will not be anticlimactic to watch it haul a rake of chocolate and cream coaches around a track once my recently ordered coaches arrive.

The Castle was my first Aster kit build and just after I initially thought my work was done, I determined that I needed to do a partial disassembly and rebuild to clear up a couple of issues overlooked during "round one," now since neatly resolved and to my further satisfaction after "round two." Far from being discouraged when I initially failed to successfully steam the Castle, the follow-on process of diagnosis and accommodation (repair,) made the end result feel that much sweeter.

(I have photographically documented the initial build as well as the fault correction process.)

For the time being, I have stopped looking at completed Aster models for purchase . . . and I have started to contemplate my next kit build.

I too look forward to watching the 241P come together in this thread and in another begun earlier on in this forum.

Cheers,

Joe


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

Charles,

nice work on a very complex kit. Will watch in awe as you progress.

Joe,

as a fellow BR Castle kit builder I know where you are coming from. Believe me, that first run with coaches will be magic. Seeing some thing you put together yourself, even from an Aster kit, come to life is a very pleasurable point in life. Im still tweaking the burner on mine to get it to steam well outside.

I have not stopped buying complete loco's though. A twelve year old secondhand but new "Scotsman" fresh from display got an outing yesterday. Out of this world.

DougieL

waiting for Aster UK to ring with the Rebuilt Merchant Navy kit };^)


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Dougie,

Thank you. I've "lurked" in that other place, so I am aware of your burner tweaking. In fact, I am down to 20 wicks on the forward burner and 19 each on the other two after watching how your testing has gone. I have bright blue flames and no shortage of steam . . . and the latest run (on the rolling road, without a carriage load,) was 75 minutes.

I'll leave this thread to Charles and his build now - not to further stray off topic. I may start one on the general theme of the things I learned during my first build for the possible benefit of those who are hesitating to experience first hand, the joy themselves. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles said:


> So it begins having the opportunity to build one of the most complex and detailed locomotive ever by Aster.
> 
> Aster 241P Kit build


I finally heard from Hans that the replacement for the broken banjo bolt has been shipped from Japan and hope to restart my 241P build shortly. 

My observation so far is that the base build is not especially difficult. The difficult bit is all the tiny parts that need to be attached to the boiler casing with M1.2 x 2 screws. 

Good luck!

Robert


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert,

Glad to hear you are back on track with your build. 

Yes, the details will be quite the fiddly task to put on. So far the biggest note is to ensure all the measurements are strictly adhered to and making sure things are in correct alignment before going too far ahead, one misalignment can cause hours of headache down the line. 

Frame work has hit a bit of a halt while a part packing error is corrected, two of one and none of the other part (1-49 and 1-48 respectively) has put a stop to finishing the valve gear on the RH side, but not in doing the rest of the sub assemblies and the most important bits, tender and boiler. 

Best of luck! Look forward to seeing yours running soon with a full CIWL accompaniment.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*New step completed*

Here is a link to the build process(visual):

Aster 241P kit build


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Charles,

You take a lot more photos than do I, the result of which is a more informative step-by-step presentation.

Although, the way the images flowed, it looked as though you were taking the tender bogies apart. 

Those tender bogies have a lot of detail in them that the casual viewer may not appreciate, but that the builder and the owner certainly will enjoy.

*************************

Question: Do you use Loctite 222 or 222MS during the build?

One of the things I think that I learned (so far, I have no doubt,) is that, with a lot of mechanical movement between the frames of a three or four cylinder loco, one had better make sure those various fasteners (screws) are not going to loosen up during normal operation.

Which reminds me of something else.

Nowadays, all automobiles have rev-limiters on them, but in days or yore (such as with my Austen-Healey 3000 Mk III,) one could easily over-rev an engine, though anyone with any sense would never do so, knowing in advance what the dire consequences would be.

I notice that, with model steam engines, people sometimes will run them on a rolling road at 2 or 3 or perhaps even 4 or more times scale speed, thinking nothing of the stresses and vibrations that they are placing on the chassis components that would not otherwise be present on a track.

In my own case, I did this with my Castle in the third hour of the break-in period only to discover that two very critical C-M1.4-7 screws had loosened up that were used to attach linkage rods from the inside Walschaerts expansion link assembly to the reverser linkage, the result of which was to distort the valve timing for all four cylinders.

Upon close inspection, I realized that I would not have to take the loco apart to the point where I had to separate the two frames. <--- That was the good news. 

The bad news was that, in order to re-tighten those two tiny and critical screws, I would have to remove the two outer cylinders and reach the screws through a small hole that Aster provided, left vacant only after the cylinders where out of the way. Off came the cab, the smokebox assembly, boiler, piping, steam chest covers, etc., to get the outside cylinders off.

I had forgotten to use any thread-locker on these two screws though I had used 222 _almost_ everywhere else. Based upon the location of these screws and my desire never to remove them - or have to re-tighten them again, I put a drop of 263 on each.


Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
222 thread locker (purple)- for the small parts that one might want to be able to get loosen again (screws on frame, etc)
242 Blue- keep secure (if necessary heat to release)
603/638- for security of gaps to keep item in place (such as bearings or axles).


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Charles,

Thanks for sharing one of your trade secrets. 

I will look into 603/638.

In the few manuals I have, Aster does not mention thread-locker, but I see it as an absolute necessity. Jim's Southern Steam Trains site has a basic builder's article which mentions using Loctite 222:

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/manual/assembly.htm

*******************

When I built the Castle, I had on hand, 222, 242 and 262, purple, blue, red, respectively.

I have since found that Loctite has versions of 242 and 262 that are more impervious to petrochemicals, 243 and 263, respectively.

222MS is the mil-spec version of 222.

I used 242 to set the rocker arm fulcrum pivot points on the Castle as these are reciprocal motion points that, when they loosen, they bind because the pins are tapered and rise up and jam a bit like a Morse taper would. The more they loosen, the tighter they get, binding-wise.

I am sure you would agree that permanent thread-locker (262 and 263) should be avoided generally as it is a bear to undo - it takes 400F to loosen it up. (Heat can be applied locally with a soldering iron if there are no rubber or plastic or other items adjacent which can be damaged by heat.)

I used 263 only on those two tiny machine screws mentioned in my post above. I probably did not get the ultimate locking experience either because I did not clean the screws with solvent first (Acetone or MEK,) before applying the locker.

Cheers,

Joe


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

It should be noted that 603/638 is only for securing wheels to axles or for crank pins into hubs, nothing else. 262/263 for similar applications, never for tiny bolts unless you can heat to remove or the other threadlocks do not hold up. 242/243 is really as strong as you want to go on critical parts, such as securing pistons to crossheads and will require some heat with a micro-torch to get loose, do not try loosening without heating first as it holds fast. 

Other uses for blue grade thread lock are trunnion pins and other items that are inaccesable once the engine is together especially as you have found on the castle with the rocking arms and like parts. 

Everything else that moves or has vibration potential gets 222, no need to dish out extra for the mil-spec, the formulae are unchanged between the two for our purposes. Be sure that things such as axle box keepers and the like are secured with this as well, really makes for a bad day if the keepers come loose and fall off while running.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

rbednarik said:


> It should be noted that 603/638 is only for securing wheels to axles or for crank pins into hubs, nothing else. 262/263 for similar applications, never for tiny bolts unless you can heat to remove or the other threadlocks do not hold up. 242/243 is really as strong as you want to go on critical parts, such as securing pistons to crossheads and will require some heat with a micro-torch to get loose, do not try loosening without heating first as it holds fast.
> 
> Other uses for blue grade thread lock are trunnion pins and other items that are inaccesable once the engine is together especially as you have found on the castle with the rocking arms and like parts.
> 
> Everything else that moves or has vibration potential gets 222, no need to dish out extra for the mil-spec, the formulae are unchanged between the two for our purposes. Be sure that things such as axle box keepers and the like are secured with this as well, really makes for a bad day if the keepers come loose and fall off while running.


Ryan,

Thanks for the additional information.

If I had it to do over again, I would use 243 blue on all of the small screws that hold the expansion link together, as much, but not all, of the inside (between the frames) valve gear is inaccessible on the Castle without having the boiler off and in some cases the outside cylinders removed.

On the rocker arms . . .

They were the other two items that I forgot to use 222 on during initial assembly. Both loosened and bound up during early break-in runs. I then used 222 on them and one of them still loosened though I had washed the screws in acetone and allowed the 222 to set. Second time around I went to 242 blue.

So far so good . . .

The underlying issue is that these rocker arms cannot be oiled as there is no way to get oil into the bearing surfaces without removing the support brackets from below. As an experiment, I have coated the fulcrum pins with graphite bearing oil. Time will tell whether this will work.

Back to not high-jacking an SNCF 241P build thread. 

Cheers,

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*241P build photos continued*

Joe
As you say...on track here are more of the build photos

Aster 241P kit build


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

By the way, I covet one of those. 

I am enjoying watching the 241P come together.

Regards,

Joe


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I finally got the replacement banjo bolt and have continued the build. It really slows down when you start to add detail to the boiler casing. Many of the (tiny) parts are held by a combination of a slot fitting and a M1.2 screw and these can take an age to fit. 

Robert


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Almost finished with the tender. The level of detail and working function of the detail parts is amazing (gates open and close, cover platform over the pin for tender/engine draw bar, etc) will have to do a video for all to see.

Aster 241P tender shots


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Charles said:


> Almost finished with the tender. The level of detail and working function of the detail parts is amazing (gates open and close, cover platform over the pin for tender/engine draw bar, etc) will have to do a video for all to see.
> 
> Aster 241P tender shots


It is a work of art!

I know that I would enjoy building one of those. 

Is Aster using incandescent bulbs (looks like it?) or have they gone to warm LED lighting? 

It appears the source of lighting power is from CR-2032 button batteries?

Charles . . .

When we get to the photos of the rather beautiful lilies in bloom, are we required to stop looking . . . or may we go on?

  ,s

Joe


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Joe
All but one or two of our albums/photos are open to the public. Thanks for asking
Charles


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*241P Tender finished*

Plan on a short video showing the details and components that are operable down to the finest details...amazing

Aster 241P Tender


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

And I thought the U1 had amazing detail.....of course, this is 2x that engine. I'd love to own one but its not likely to happen! I'm still looking for someone who will trade a AD60 for a Challenger! Patience I've discovered is usually rewarded...perhaps it will be so with the 241P as well someday!

I've enjoyed seeing and hearing about Robert's and Nate's engines....Please post a video when ready!

Thanks!
Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*Locomotive buildup*

Having gotten the part that was incorrectly a duplicate (only one of a thousand thus a good quality control on the packing of all those tiny parts)

Back to the locomotive build up

Aster 241P Locomotive

Sam, I agree...someday. Your could trade the AD60 for one!


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles,

We'll see but I think I'd rather have the Challenger in that trade...Of course, I do have the proper coaches for the 241P....which is perhaps as big an obstacle there....again, we'll see down the road what comes up. Right now both engines are relatively new and the shine has not quite come off the apple yet....usually takes about 4 years or so for that to happen....Until then...I'll enjoy your pics and info on the build. 

Sam


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Sam,

Out of all the three locos I have, the 241P is the most advanced and highly detailed locomotive. It also cost me the most money. Although, there are a lot of details on the 241P but for some reason they look kind of plastic to me. They are just dummy details after all. I appreciate the Challenger the most due to its size and rich history in American Steam Locomotive. And I am sure most people here would agree with me. 

At one point I was debating whether I should get the 241P or the Allegheny, I chose the 241P simply because Charles gave me a very good tip that I should consider collecting one loco from each country. But if I could go back I would certainly give it a second thought on the Allegheny. Perhaps, now that I realized I like bigger engine. 

Nate


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I know that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder...
To understand the complexity of the 241P it is a four cylinder compound locomotive. The engine is a mountain type to which it is the first in gauge one live steam. The locomotive is properly setup for coal/alcohol with a well designed boiler. The brass casting are finely detailed with amazing number of functioning parts. The other aspect of getting to know the locomotive is the opportunity to build it; that process gives one insight and appreciation of the time and effort that went into offering this or any locomotive. The running nature of the 241P vs. an Allegheny (stock configuration) the 241P is much more satisfying to run (both in actual wheels to rails and size). 
To appreciate the 241P one must get to know the real locomotive. I am sure that the literature on the 241P would have wonderful insight of the various operations (we found many aspects of the U1 through books that gave us a connect to its steaming days). Here is a a short historical perspective (Southern Steam Trains):
In October of 1945, the French National Railways SNCF ordered 35 four cylinder compound mountain type (4-8-2) locomotives form Schneider locomotive works in Creusot. The locomotives were to serve in express passenger service and had to pull a 750 ton train at 120 km/hr. sustained speed. Primary field of operation was on the Paris - Lion , Paris - Dijon - Marseille, Paris - Chaumont - Mulhouse and Paris - Lion - Mediterranee lines. Several locomotives were equipped with different tenders to full-fill the demands of their assigned territory. All of them featured mechanical coal stokers. Because of their excellent performance record they remained in service long into electrification of the railroad with the last locomotive retired in 1973.


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Nate,
Yes, I agree with your sentiment regarding American big iron, especially the Challenger. The 241P has so much detail it reminds me a bit of the Fine Arts stuff. It is truly a beauty but I too would rather have a Challenger---perhaps also because I have the U1. It is hard to say at this point which one may be the better investment especially if you were weighing the Allegheny in that decision. 

I think there is a Allegheny or two around to buy but the 241P right now is rarer and will likely be more difficult to obtain so it likely will retain its value for a while but one never knows.

Enjoy them all--you are a lucky guy to have them all. I wish knew someone who had the 241P so I can see it run.

Sam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Update
Photos of the progress:

Aster 241P


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

After the bench test a photo shot of the locomotive also completed with only one side of detailing to do (can use the arrows in Flickr to see all detailing necessary):

241P build up

Video of the 241P passing the test for timing and initial motion test on saturated steam:


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I think "remarkable" is a good way to describe the 241P. Maybe an abbreviation for the word complexity would be "Aster." ;-)

I happen to love it - the complexity.

It - the model - is a work of engineering art.

About the only criticism I would have is the backward-looking electrics, but that doesn't diminish the overall beauty in any way.

I realized that as soon as I finished building my Castle that it would be next to impossible to service it without taking it completely apart, which I did twice, owing to my inexperience. I believe I learned enough to avoid pitfalls next time though I am glad I did not start with a 241P. 

Congratulations Charles and company on what appears to be a splendid build.

Cheers,

Joe

That Saito burner really does make a racket 

Is that a Maxwell Hemmens marine unit accompanying the Saito boiler?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*241P completed*

Despite the set backs and having to take apart several times to fix a few things here and there...done:

Aster 241P


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Nice!


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## applegeekz (Nov 27, 2012)

Charles,

Very Nice!!! Ryan is certainly one of the best modeler out there. I enjoyed viewing the build photos very much, they really make me appreciate my RTR 241P a lot more now. Amazing locomotive...


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello fellow steam enthusiast: Although I do not have the privilege of owning an Aster 2-4-1 P I thought that it might help builders trying to tune this loco to get the most out of it with the following information: It appears, from friends who are building this loco, and building it right, that is as a 4-8-2 and not as a 4-4-2, which is apparently from what I have heard how the chassis's suspention is designed. That because of low clearances between the inside HP rods (or is it the crosshead) and one driver axle, they have stiffened the suspention making four of the eight drivers inoperational, which in turn gives it poor adhesion caracteristics. One builder I know, has solved this problem by carefully redoing the equalisation and springing of the frame, and has actually turned down the said axle where the rod interfeers with it to obtain proper clearance. (Which while we are at it shouldn't be necessary on a kit at that price!) Well if I don't own one, I did know the prototype quite well (which, by the way can be seen in preservation today), and am particularly interested in the history of the steam locomotives development. Recently reading L. M. Vilain's book on the PLM loco history I found that on the PLM 2-4-1 C, the engine from which the 2-4-1 P was a developed, *the PLM had milled flats on the axle where this clearance problem occured!* So fellow steam buffs, if you run into the same problem don't be bashfull about this practical sollution (very american), the prototype did it too.


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