# Looking for impressive club/personal tracks



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Im looking for the plans of impressive club tracks like the one in zube park, TX or that one in Japan. 

I want to show what my simple loop that im proposing can turn into one day to impress them to say yes to my club track plan lol
Them = The 7.5 Gauge train club that im proposing too. (Tradewinds and Atlantic Railroad)
Pictures are also cool!s 

This is an old posting of the zubi track http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34818


Andrew...


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew 

The Finger Lakes Live Steamers in Marengo NY went through a similar situation a few years back. While most members run the rideon sizes, especially 7.5 inch gauge, a strong minority wanted a gauge I track (45 mm). It took some effort but that track is now a reality at the Finger Lakes impressive club grounds. 

Check out the website at http://fingerlakeslivesteamers.org/ and contact them direct for more information. The secretary, Roger Caiazza, was one of the prime instigators in getting the approval for and building the gauge I track at the club. 

Regards ... Doug


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course, don't forget Marty and the NTCGRR...


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the link, there track is on the ground with the other 2 gauges and even has a steamup bay like the 7.5 Gauge. My idea was fence posts up in the air like most clubs do it.

Anyway I love different ideas and different ways we all enjoy this wonderful hobby!


Andrew...


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew 

The Finger Lakes gauge I track is elevated at the steam up bays for ease of use. And it is on the ground elsewhere to facilitate the building of gardens. But that in itself does not preclude using any other form of trackage elevated or otherwise. The problem is club approval (and funding) not construction methodology. 

Regards ... Doug


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I know,  I kind of have a 1up that the Tradewinds guys said that 1/2 of there members where interested in an elevated G gauge track before I even met them. The president (John Hollahan, very nice guy) told me to make up a proposal and he would get it approved,  we already have the land in the park to put the layout up and everything. My proposal is for a 20' X 30' raised loop to start, total pricing for track and all is around $2000 it looks like (running aristo brass so they can do electrics too). He said the club is in very good financial standing (from all those kid/public rides every month lol). Tradewinds and Atlantic has been around for 20 years so they are well established.

I am going to try my best and persue it, regardless I will be out there helping them with their 7.5 stuff anyway (I like all gauges), eventually they will give in hehe (but I dont think it will be a problem). What is really nice is that they have club engines. After they make sure you can drive them they will let ya.

BTW, my fathers homeowners association approved his layout, they put it in the "playground" classification. W00T

Andrew...


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, 

I'll be the first to plug the Pennsylvania Live Steamers Ga. 1 track: 


























Around 300ft with an elevated section on cinder-block (backfilled on the front fascia to keep the garden appearance, see third picture) and a ground-level area, following the slope of the land. 

Of course there are others, like Dr Rivet(Jim Stapleton)'s IE&W in Virgina, I'm sure he can post up his layout specs, and I have plenty of photos of the layout if your interested. 

Somewhere I have the pamphlet that we made for the 10th anniversary of the track, has a good history and overview of building the track.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to reveal Dr. Rivet's secrets but I think his is one of the very best layouts - one of my heros for layout design - over-the-top.  But if you can, why not?



















Tough to do it justice unless you're at 5,000-10,000ft./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif   Here are three past (archive) threads with lots of pictures:

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30743

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30746

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41376

My 2 cents - I would add a large burm in the middle of one of the loops so your train disapears and then reappears again to add to the mystery and illusion of a train having traveled afar.  While I have the land for one, I'm still working on saving my coins.  My large 10 gallon jar is only a quarter full of coins to finance the build.  So if anyone wants to donate a few gold coins I would really appreciate it and of course a permanent invitation is your reward.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW!!!

Very Nice Layout!


Andrew..


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 03/06/2008 8:13 AM
Not to reveal Dr. Rivet's secrets but I think his is one of the very best layouts - one of my heros for layout design - over-the-top.  But if you can, why not?












Tough to do it justice unless you're at 5,000-10,000ft./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif  


Is it visible on Google Earth?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

If I remember correctly, Jim indicate that the satellite photo did have the track present but the tree made it only a partial view.


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

Close ups on.......    www.capeannrail.com


It's not that big 330 ft, single track mainline.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Andrew, Charles 

Charles B. posted a bunch of photos from our May 2006 meet. The last photo in that post is an overhead view I provided to him. It was taken Oct 31, 2005. 
Check the following archive link ===> http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38887 

The track plan has not expanded, but the Ga 0 loop was completed and some additional passing track added after the photo. For reference, the inside radius of the main line curves is 24 feet, the length of the circuit is 560 feet. Since there is no scenery or buildings, many will only give it the status of "locomotive test track". That is ok, I run many scales of equipment, so the buildings, etc would be visually incompatible with something, no matter what. 

Chris, people already complain that the trains "get too far away". I would have to have on-site EMTs to deal with guys whose trains disappeared from view. Many cannot deal with the train disappearing under the "walk over" that goes from the deck to the center of the layout. Oh well. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 03/09/2008 3:56 PM
 Since there is no scenery or buildings, many will only give it the status of "locomotive test track". 
                                                                                                                                    

Anyone that would say something that ridiculous about the best track in the Country is just showing their jealousy.  I have said before: Dr. Rivet's track is where good loco's should go when they die, It's like "Loco Heaven".


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 03/09/2008 7:31 PM

  I have said before: Dr. Rivet's track is where good loco's should go when they die, It's like "Loco Heaven". 





Steve,

I dunno about committing engines to a nearly grave, but you are certainly right about loco heaven.  Let's just say they get a true enlightening and re-awakening to show their bounty is as good as their beauty!  The IE&W is a place for locos to live, or die trying....mostly on the grueling ~1.2% (Dr. Rivet, correct me on this if it's wrong) grade heading towards the walk-over (counterclockwize running)...now there's a challenge for most all engines!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Steve 

Thanks for the compliment. However, my track is not everyone's cup of tea. Also, I don't know what your criteria were for determining "BEST". It is NOT the longest (by far), it does NOT have the most storage tracks, It does NOT have the most interesting "operating profile" (grades), it does NOT have the most interesting track plan, it does NOT have the best track layout for efficient operation. 

However, based on comments from people who have attended one or more of the 28 organized meets held here since 1994: 

a] It is too long / too short 
b] It has too many curves / not enough curves 
c] It is too flat / has grades that are too steep 
d] It is too high off the ground / too low to the ground 
e] It has too many switches / crossovers / passing tracks 
f] It needs more crossovers / passing tracks 
g] It should be single track to make it interesting 
h] It should have the passing tracks connected so there are four main lines instead of two 
i] It has too many yard tracks (12) / too few yard tracks (12) 
j] It needs more steaming bays (8) / NO ONE has said I have too many 

I have had people claim that they "get lost" on the track because of the passing tracks. That is why the two crossovers between the two mains that are at about mid-point on the layout are ALWAYS locked down in "straight through" position during meets. 

I will admit the track was in a "continuous rebuilding" phase from six months after it was first opened in 1994 until 1999. Since the complete reconstruction in 1999-2001, I have only made incremental improvements such as rebuilding the steaming bay track, adding the 7 track yard, finishing the Ga 0 loop, and realigning the major junction for the yard/steaming bay and the main running lines. 

I am trying to finish my wife's storage building (it substitutes for the basement we do not have) so that I can have some covered storage tracks attached to the layout. If you look at the pic that appears twice in the thread; the building is now located to the right of the layout along the tree line. 

In short, there are a lot of really nice layouts around the country, and depending on how and what you like to run, they are usually reflective of the builder's choices. I did not say DESIRES, becuse there are often constraints (not of the builder's doing) that limit what is ultimately accepted as a compromise. 

Unfortunately, in my case, the length of the original layout was constrained because we decided it could not be longer than all the garden hose I owned in 1992 when Peter Jobusch and I dragged it around the trees in the yard. The only other rule at the time was that it would not look like a NASCAR oval. Considering that all Jo Anne wanted was another loop on which to run her LGB stuff, I did ok. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Ryan 

The storage yards and steaming bay are as near to DEAD LEVEL as I could make them with pressure treated lumber. 

The grade on the steaming bay lead is about 4.5% 

The grades on the main line are 1 in 176 or about 0.7% There is a down grade on the main from the crossover from the outside main to the "get off track" (inbound yard lead) past the bridges. The up grade begins at the end of the tangent track in the "middle" of the layout and continues through the right hand curve all the way to the curve at the front of the layout closest to the driveway. 

This gradient was established as follows: The pairs of support posts are spaced at 44 inches on the straight or inside of the curve. As cross memebers were attached to the pairs of posts to support the longitudinal stringers, a 1/4 inch spacer was placed on the next cross member, and a level run between then to set the height. This results in 1/4 inch change every 44 inches, or 1 inch in 176 inches. 

I know it is not precisely correct becaause lumber shrinks and expands with the weather and shrinks with age. BUT, it is close enough to say LESS THAN ONE PERCENT. 

I have NOT computed the effective compensated gradient due to friction from curvature, or the fact that that particular spot seems to accumulate more oil on the track than anywhere else. 

All the best 

Jim


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

The club owner that I sent a standard oval proposal to (save money) came back and told me he wanted it done right and it has to be interesting. So I will makeup some track plans and submit the best one on this forum for people to pick apart and help me make it great. Thinking about a dogbone layout and looong s curvature for the center part (20' minimum radius) (2 lines, so the center part will have 4 tracks)

The other problem I have is that I have to find 5-10 more G scale enthusiats to help me run the track and be there most of the time. They dont want the new track to take away from the existing play/work crew for the 7.5 Gauge engines. The only way I know how to do this is to contact all the hobby shops (make flyers to show whats planned and that I need more people), Find the only G scale oriented club in south florida (Friends and Family G scale modular club) run by Bill Muenzenmaier, and get there members back together or ask on this board 

The track will ahve to be oriented to electric and live steam, Im going to build it with stainless steel (club owner wants it done right) even if it costs more) and have electric blocks to turn on electric or off for live steam. Get the people with electrics interested and slowly convert them for live steam hehe. Live steam isnt as prominate in South Florida, as I know of anyway (even with all the people who live here, dont understand lol).

I will get it built and approve, It is just gonna take me a while (even if I start a club in my own backyard haha, due to apartment life, this cant happen yet, /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif)

-Andrew


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew,
One place I think has 'done it right' is the Denver Garden Railway Society (DGRS), a club I used to belong to. They have two permanent layouts at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden. One is a ground level electric layout with scenery, bridges, buildings etc and the other is a dual track raised oval for live steamers. The layouts are fenced in, separate from other museum displays and includes a storage building. There are benches around the fence line for visitors to observe the trains. If you contact the club via their web site, I am certain they can provide you with pictures and drawings to give you more ideas. Their web site is:  http://www.denvergrs.org/
A good person to contact is Alan Olson.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)




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## chama (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice aerial shot of Dr. Rivet's modest effort (Dave Rose's post above), but it doesn't have the recently added 16' x 72' equipment storage building which I don't believe anybody has yet described as too small!


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave 

Thanks for posting the pic in the thread. 

Andrew 

In the pic above notice that there are tangents between the reverse curves. The one on the right is not so obvious because the passing track for the imside main ends there, but it is about 6 or 8 feet. 

In the first PLS pic at the beginning of the thread, you will see the long freight is going through a reverse curve. There is NO tangent between the curves. It is a very poor design mistake, one that guys who put down thousands of feet of 4 3/4 in and 7 1/4 gauge track would not permit on that track. Make sure any design that has reverse curves has a tangent at least as long as the longest piece of rolling stock that will run on the layout. A minimum of four feet is safe for gauge 1. Because of that reverse curve one cannot run 57 foot British coaches on the PLS track. The buffers will lock and derail the cars in that curve. All other aspects of their layout are more than satisfactory; minimum radius, raised steaming area, storage tracks, dual mains. 

Also, since you are building a "multi-scale" but single gauge layout, try to use at least 7 1/2 in (8 in prefered) center to center on your parallel tracks. This will keep the 1:20.3 guys from scrapping plows and cab shades while passing as well as not knocking the marker lamps off two passing San Juan parlor cars. Many folks are used to the size of LGB and 1:29 and don't realize how much bigger full length 1:32 passenger cars and 1:20 engines are, along with the associated clearance (loading gauge) issues. 

Good luck on your project. 

Jim


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Scott 

I guess you haven't spoken with Jo Anne (DA BOSS, aka SWIMBO) recently. Big enough???? 

The building, which I refered to previously as a substitute for a basement, is located in the empty space along the tree line in the upper left of the photo, parallel to the tracks coming down from the steaming bay. 

My share of the building for operational purposes is 42 inches wide by 64 feet, enough for three levels of inside storage. This will be 14 tracks with an average usable length of 56 feet. Won't have to spend my like taking cars in and out of boxes when it is finished. Jo Anne dictates the rest of the space plan. 

Thanks 

Jim


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for all the Great info!

I do understand what you are going by as "tangent"(straight area for the car to line up before you reverse the curve) before you reverse the curve and clearence issues. MY father owns a K-28 so I have some understanding how wide it can be.

I am currently building my track and will post my initial designs.


Andrew


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## cabforward (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim (Dr. Rivet) 
I am in the planing stages of my steam track what did you use for the legs table material? 
Also what kind of track and what size switches did you use? 
Thanks 
Matt


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I was going to use fence posts (pressure treated 4x4) for the legs incased in concrete, if you up where it freezes you need to get the legs below the permafrost layer. As for switches, I was told to get #8's or #10's. Every Live Steam track I have seen used llagas creek switches. Some of the other brands require some work to make them right.

Andrew..

P.S. I know my name isnt Dr Rivet lol, but I like to answer anyway lol


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## HeliconSteamer (Jan 2, 2008)

Most steam tracks in our area use Sunset Valley turnouts and track and function very well. One nice thing about Sunset Valley is their wide range of rail materials, two tie sizes, and even dual and gauge O track and turnouts. I am not affiliated with Sunset Valley, just a satisfied user and customer.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Is this a full-size K-28?  Does he run it on any of the Colorado lines?   In my club we have a guy who owns and leases about eight or ten preserved diesel locos to other preservation groups, but he has no steam locos in his collection.

Please post piccies!!! [under a separate thread, of course].

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Matt 

As promised, here is more than you ever wanted to know about the CURRENT IE&W Ry track construction. 

Support posts: 4x4 PT set 18 inches below ground with about 20 lbs of Sakrete in each hole. Set in pairs so the center to center perpendicular to the track axis is 22 inches . Spacing in track axis is 44 inches center to center on tangents and inside of the curves. These are NOT the same as "landscape timbers" at least as sold around here. Here they are about 2.5 in x 3.5 in with rounded sides to provide decorative borders for gravel walks and flower beds. 

Cross members: 2x4 PT, one on each side of the pair of posts to support the longitudinal stringers. 

Stringers: three (3) each resting on the cross members, spaced about 13 inches apart. Primarily 2x6 PT (reused from original construction). New construction like the large yard uses 2x4 PT. The use of three stringers is based on the Trex specification that the decking be supported every 16 inches, and no overhang exceeding 3 inches; otherwise it would sag from its own weight over time. Yes, it is overbuilt. 

Deck: Winchester Grey Trex brand synthetic composite decking, 5/4 inch x 6 inch (nominal). Most is cut to provide a 31.5 inch wide track bed, maximizing the use of 16 foot pieces of Trex. All the decking on curves was “pie wedged” using a table saw to provide reasonably uniform spacing between the boards. The Trex decking is extruded with a hump to improve drainage when used on regular decks. This is actually noticeable and causes vertical “springing” of the track as trains roll over it. The 7 track yard and the 120 foot widening (to 42 inches) project to support the Ga 0 have had all the Trex surface planed on both sides to provide a flat surface for the track. 

Fasteners: All the wood components are attached with square drive “coated” (not galvanized” deck screws. The Trex is attached with special square drive screws made for composite decking. 

Track: All track is Sunset Valley code 250 NS. Switches are all #10s including the yards. The steaming bay tracks and the double crossover at the bottom of the steaming bay lead and yard are #8s. Except for the two #10 3ways in the yards, all switches use SVRR ground throws. Track center to center is 7 inches 

Configuration: two main lines with a length of 560 feet, two passing tracks for each main with an aggregate length of 500+ feet, two yards (5 and 7 tracks) with a total of 300+ feet of useable storage, covered steaming bay with eight service tracks and three storage lines in the center. Minimum radius is 24 feet. Ga 0 circuit is 550 feet utilizing dual gauge on the passing tracks for the inside main. NO dual gauge on the Ga 1 main line tracks. 

IF I were building the track today, I would use “box ladder” construction incorporating commercial construction grade/weight galvanized wall stud floor track for the sides and lateral 2x4s for the deck support. I would invest in a lightweight (but still expensive) material like DiBond for the deck surface. It will not burn and is designed for outside use. It is no more expensive than Trex on a square foot basis. Some folks have used a fiber cement material like hardie board and sealed it. I do not know what its longevity will be. 

I would use either Sunset Valley or Llagas Creek track. Now that LCRy uses plastic rather than wood for their switch ties, the problems of spikes coming out and the switches coming out of square has been taken care of. Both are excellent products. I have used Llagas Creek in the past and would seriously consider it again. 

If the track is elevated you can use any type of rail including aluminum, assuming you don’t have 150 pound animals walking on it. Once it gets bent, you have to cut it out and replace it. 

I would not use less than 14 foot radius for the Cab Forward (if you have room); it will run on 10 foot radius ok. Because of the CF and especially large 1:20.3 K series, I would use at least 7.5 inch center to center, 8 inches on curves if there is space. 

Regards 

Jim


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Its an Accucraft 1:20.3 K-28. It was the one at diamond blowing the whistle too much (dad was having too much fun with the remote control I installed) 










Can u spot cliff 

And this is semi on topic, impressive moble club track.

Andrew...


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## cabforward (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim 
Thank you very much for the information that you provided. 
Matt


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