# solar and/or wind power for water pump?



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I'd like to install a very small pump to power a pondless stream a short distance and an easy elevation

I get full sun for half the year where it would be located, but in winter the sun hides. It is very windy location all the time.


Reason for solar would be two-fold

1. decrease cost over time
2. eliminate having to install a long extension cord

any ideas appreciated.


Dave


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Let me google that for you.... 

errr I did the google thing a couple of years ago and saw many solar pond pumps, most were very small for water fountains on table tops. 

Most important thing to look for is Lift, how much water how high? From your catch basin to your outlet. Lift decreases as height increases. 
Flow is another thing; start with a gallon milk jug and a small hole (try larger holes after) and let it drain down your stream bed. Time the time each size hole takes to drain. That will give you an idea about gals/minutes and what looks best in your stream. Now you have an idea about flow rates and lift.... your challenge; to find a pump that matches your need! 

You might want a solar battery charger and run the pump off of the battery and on a timer for selected operation (while running trains) or with an on/off switch. This idea is for your winter months when the charge is slower. 

Have fun. 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks; again, this will be a small water feature; small enough just to allow the sound of a gurgling brook 

I've always wondered why so many modelers have windmills in their garden that don't generate electricity 

I've also wondered about designing a perpetual energy source, e.g., a solar pump that powers a stream that goes through a mill waterwheel, that generates electricity in a capacitor for nighttime operations


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## TrotFox (Feb 15, 2008)

I can answer a couple of those. 

I, too, looked in to using a model windmill to generate some usable power. The problem is that they are too close to the ground. Unless you are in the plains states you'll not likely get enough airflow to do useful work beyond powering the blades of the mill itself. If you want to power any reasonably sized pump (1 gal per hour? 12" lift?) you'll need a mill on a pole, something higher than 12' off the ground at a guess. 

Also, don't use the words 'perpetual' and 'energy source' in any sentence that you want taken seriously by anyone who's ever made something work. Anyone who tells you that they've seen it done is either lying, or has been mis-led. Use your solar cell to directly charge a capacitor if you want the longest run-time. recovering the energy is always a loosing proposition. Most of the energy to lift the water will be consumed making those burbling sounds you're looking for. Getting enough speed in the sluice for energy recovery would require some very un-natural looking creekbed and enough head to need a bigger pump... cyclic, that's what this problem is. 

I don't mean to make it sound like I'm criticizing you... I'm honestly trying to help you avoid future embarrassment... 

Trot, the (electrically) engineering, fox...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Perpetual motion on earth is impossible. In deep space, with no gravity or nearby planets in a complete vacuum, its possible to go a long time without losing any energy.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion* 


Some interesting attempts were made...

Back to doing this, you need a big solar panel, and you need to come back with the total "head" (that Trotfox called lift) and a very efficient pump... you really won't be able to get much lift or flow.

Regards, Greg


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## silverstatespecialties (Jan 2, 2008)

Windmills are finicky & maintenance intensive; because of swirling winds at lower elevations (like between homes & obstructions), they must be mounted on tall masts to take on breezes head-on....otherwise, the buffeting of side winds & swirls wears out the main shaft bearings quickly (as well as put all kinds of shear forces on the blades). And the wind doesn't blow 24/7 in most areas, so you'll need some batteries to store the electrical charge. In fact, the most efficient solar/wind generation is used to charge batteries, which in turn would actually power your electrical device. 

If things were really that easy, then they would be in more wide-spread use. A mill wheel could theoretically be used to run a generator, but you've got to get it started somehow... And if it sits idle for extended periods, then your batteries would most likely discharge over long periods of disuse. 

I'm not saying that it can't be done; I've done quite a bit of research into "alternative" energy sources, and there are quite a few out there....research is essential.


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## dmunseyjr (Feb 16, 2008)

Perhaps a vertical wind mill might offer a possible solution

Check out some of these alternative ideas

http://www.southcom.com.au/~windmill/info.htm

http://www.southcom.com.au/~vk7dy/windmill2/plans.htm 

http://www.southcom.com.au/~windmill/sail.html

ENJOY
Don


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## dmunseyjr (Feb 16, 2008)

Here is another link to a vertical windmill project that might be scalable to a garden railway>


http://www.creative-science.org.uk/sav.html 


Don


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, you didn't mention what your budget for the project was, but Harbor Freight has a 45 watt solar panel kit that often goes on sale for $200.









http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9059945 Watt Solar Panel Kit


As others have stated, you will need batteries if you want the pump to run when the sun is not in full brightness, but I think - without researching - that 45 watts would get you enough power for the pump you want. 

The mill generator idea would be a great novelty, as long as you don't expect it to contribute significantly. 


Good luck, and keep us posted,
Matt


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

Four years ago there was such a solar powered pump available. It moved enough water for a foot high waterfall. It was pulled off the market due to improper seals and short circuited. It was very affordable. Sadly it wasn't made very well .Regards, Dennis.


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