# Is Live Steam/MLS withering away?



## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

It sounds like a provocative question, but here are my thoughts:
I suscribe to MLS and a European forum, primarily in German.
http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewforum.php?f=23
Potential readers for MLS are the US, Canada, UK and Australia with a combined population of 438 Million.

In contrast German speaking countries like Germany, part of Switzerland and Austria add up to 96 Million.

Now the surprising fact: Most threads in MLS fetch around 1000 views with very few going above 10,000.
In the European forum many diesel/steam related threads get 50,000 to 200,000 views with one about a field railway diorama topping out at 480,000 with the thread still alive.

On average this is an about 40 fold greater activity compared to MLS.
So what is the reason
- Threads in MLS not interesting enough?
- Number(Percentage) of live steamers low or dwindling?
- People not interested in sharing their projects/thoughts?
- ??
Any comments?
Regards


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Henner, Looks to me like the answer may be the software used. When I look at your post here on MLS, the first time the counter increased by one. I went back to your post several times, but the counter did not increase. Then I went to the site you referenced. There the counter increased each time I went to a page and back to the forum listings.
Check it out yourself and see if you get the same results as I did.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting thought!
I just opened a thread in MLS I never touched before and the counter did not move either. Strange.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I'd be interested in seeing the ratio of posts, as well as views.

I've pretty much looked at almost all the steam threads, and build threads each time there's an update.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I visit the German site from time to time. They do A LOT of scratch building. Germans, and Europeans in general, are artisans. They are active builders. They are into the build logs with a lot of replies and views. We Americans throw tons of money at this hobby and buy everything. Instant gratification. The MLS Live Steam forum is mostly posts about commercially made stuff. We'll spent $x0,000 on some monster engine, gripe when it doesn't run right and have no idea how to fix it.

It's not a difference in the software.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

The count is down due to my abstinence due to the extra time loading the advertising. I don't go to MLS as nearly as often as I used to.


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## Gerald (Apr 8, 2013)

> The MLS Live Steam forum is mostly posts about commercially made stuff


 Now I think it's not so extreme.
I read here always interesting construction reports about itself planned live steam locomotives. As far as my English knowledge allow.


In Austria, there is a forum with live steam working in all gauges, focus 45 mm.
http://www.schienendampf.com/index.php?nxu=34487225nx30160

A small example:
http://www.schienendampf.com/34487225nx30160/gasbefeuert-f6/bau-einer-shay-locomotive-t2424.html

Gerald


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree that the site seems to have less interest than a couple of years ago. Could be the"upgraded" site and the increased difficulty associated with photos has something to do with it. Also as you say limited scratch building and modification threads. I get more enjoyment these days from the seven-eighths forum www.7-8ths.info.index.php

Also I know of several folks who have been put off by rude posts or otherwise encouraged to leave. This includes semi commercial guys who were not just hawking their wears but trying to add to the general knowledge and younger folks trying to learn stuff.


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## Joe Johnson (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Bob's answer is probably the right one. I lived in Germany for three years and was just awed at the models the craftsmen built there. 

One big difference is how much room we have. We have space for layouts and storage of lots of toys. When you lack for space one tends to focus ones time on a few well done objects.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Shay Gear Head said:


> The count is down due to my abstinence due to the extra time loading the advertising. I don't go to MLS as nearly as often as I used to.


Get Ad Blocker software and live happily ever after. I've used this for more than 10 years.

https://getadblock.com/


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce, 
Spring for _First Class _Membership. It gets rid of adds.
See you in Jan.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Phippsburg Eric said:


> I agree that the site seems to have less interest than a couple of years ago. Could be the"upgraded" site and the increased difficulty associated with photos has something to do with it.
> 
> Also I know of several folks who have been put off by rude posts or otherwise encouraged to leave. This includes semi commercial guys who were not just hawking their wears but trying to add to the general knowledge and younger folks trying to learn stuff.



Eric,

I have to agree with you on all these points. I have been and still am a First Class member (for 12+ years) and I think the process of posting photos here has just become too convoluted. Too bad.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Easiest site to post pictures at is G Scale Forum. Just scroll down push the button and select the pix to post. Nice folk over there, mostly 1/32.
http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry Barnes said:


> Easiest site to post pictures at is G Scale Forum. Just scroll down push the button and select the pix to post. Nice folk over there, mostly 1/32.
> http://www.gscaletrainforum.com/


It IS a great site. That's the one Mark Oles took over..........ANOTHER ex-MLS'er.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The German Buntbahn forum and MLS aren't really comparable.
Buntbahn is specifically for people who build their own models - it says so right in the title.
When people occasionally post about topics that don't fit into the "build your own" category, they usually get reprimanded.

German forums more along the MLS lines would be
The Spassbahn forum
or
Gartenbahn Spur G
or
Gartenbahn Forum
or
Cadosch Forum
or
LGB fan forum
plus a bunch of smaller ones.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Checking a german forum ,i could not come up with more than 996 post's per section, some of the other German forums are far behind and have posting dates from 2012/2013

I do agree some of the projects over there are outstanding quality, the same here in the US we have some very talented and ingenious people presenting there excellent ideas and craftsman ship and also people with some very good practical improvements to make or fix certain issues with ur Locos!


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Oh my, the photo issue again. Is seems very simple for me. I already keep my photos in a web album (Picasa). I look at the photo, right click for properties, highlight the web link for the photo, Ctrl + c to copy the web address of the photo. Only takes a few seconds. Then in your post hit the yellow icon with the mountain, ctrl + V to copy the address of the photo, and that is it. Ask anyone on chat where I keep dumping photos into the chat window to illustrate a thought 
(Yes I am not a first class member and do not store photos on MLS)
Regards
Jerry


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

lotsasteam said:


> Checking a german forum ,i could not come up with more than 996 post's per section, some of the other German forums are far behind and have posting dates from 2012/2013
> 
> I do agree some of the projects over there are outstanding quality, the same here in the US we have some very talented and ingenious people presenting there excellent ideas and craftsman ship and also people with some very good practical improvements to make or fix certain issues with ur Locos!


I don't know where you got your numbers from, but here the views of some recent projects in buntbahn, some of them still ongoing:
Schafberglok 15243 
Dampfspeisepumpe 78378
Orenstein &Koppel Mallet 44424
5" Feldbahn Dampflok (Bautagebuch) 54960
Selbstbau 995906 Mallet Livesteam 161567
Neues in Sachen Ns 1 221324
Selbstbau HF 110 C 184502
Live Steam 99221/99223 83973
Feldbahnmodule mit Schiff 449169
Even the "Dampfspeisepumpe" (steam pump) thread fetched almost 80k views. I don't think the MLS software keeps track of repeat views. May be a moderator can comment.
BTW in the US MLS is (apart from the 7/8ths forum) the primary place for scratch builders to present their models.
Regards


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

It could be a combination of everything. I know for me the site changed a while back so drastically that it was hard to follow the threads I have been following. They were all out of sequence and new image formats were so small it was just a pain to follow them. I spend a greater amount of time in the 7/8ths scale forum partly because I've been doing more work and partly because it seems easier to read and post to.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Naptowneng said:


> Oh my, the photo issue again. Is seems very simple for me. I already keep my photos in a web album (Picasa). I look at the photo, right click for properties, highlight the web link for the photo, Ctrl + c to copy the web address of the photo. Only takes a few seconds. Then in your post hit the yellow icon with the mountain, ctrl + V to copy the address of the photo, and that is it. Ask anyone on chat where I keep dumping photos into the chat window to illustrate a thought
> (Yes I am not a first class member and do not store photos on MLS)
> Regards
> Jerry



A more direct way is to add attachments.
Scroll down a tad farther when posting. Beside the button to post a message is an option to Go Advanced, clicking that opens additional options. Scroll down to Manage Attachments, clicking that opens a box to add pics... browse your hard drive, pic and enter pics on the list. At the bottom of that box is the button to upload your pics. After they load close the box with the appropriate button.
Finish your post and full size pics are just a click away.  Click on the thumbnail for full size pics

John


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Dang it did it again. The order of this thread just changed so that the newest post is at the top except for mine and the oldest Henner's is at the bottom just above mine! Very confusing.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I've not seen that problem of jumping order, what OS and what kind of device?
John


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Windows 7 Inspiron desk Top running Firefox latest version.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah crap,,, I was on the first page and it just dumped me off on the last page. Nothing wrong, I guess I have to change my sittings back so the newest posts are on top always. That is the problem. I thought I did that already.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Huh! Sorry, I have been gone for a few weeks: vacation, death in the family, tons of yard work, lots of stuff to do at church, and work days at my favorite LHS -- BUT my interest in live steam is still pretty strong. Life just gets in the way sometimes.

Maybe that is also happening for some of the other folks here.

Keep on steamin',
David Meashey


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

These questions get asked here every once in a while...

"Is the forum dying?"
"Is the 'G-scale' hobby dying?"

And the answers are always the same.

"It seems so, but I am still active."
"It seems to be seasonal as people get busy with other things."

And things go on as usual.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Many stopped posting threads due to lack of interest. the other problem is much was lost when Shad dumped years of threads and many of those authors felt like all that time was wasted and have no poated anymore. Some still lurk and post here and there but many just left. MLS will never be what it was 10 years ago, espically with the amount of ads that litter the forums and now into the thread postings too.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont think any real conclusion can be drawn from comparing a German forum with MLS..too many unknowns, too many variables..we arent comparing apples to apples..

How many German live-steam forums are there?
Its possible the German forum in question has evolved to be the ONE main forum for that niche of the hobby in the German speaking world..While the US hobbyists have five to ten different forums..plus the English tend to keep their own forums, separate from the Americans..so hobby discussions are probably WAY more "spread out" , over many more forums, among English speakers than in Germany. (I dont know that for a fact!  I have no idea how many German forums there are..but its a plausible theory.)

So, I think a comparison between MLS and that German forum tells us..absolutely nothing.

Scot


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

*Posting videos takes time*

I don't believe there is a lack of interest in MLS. It has become more of a problem to make comments due to the security methods the site presents.
I post a lot of videos and either people do not like them or do not want to comment on them. It does get frustrating when you put the work into it and no one says anything one way or the other.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Art, I have gotten lazy I guess, not thanking you for posting the videos. Always enjoy watching what you guys are up to down there in the Houston area.

I find it interesting that this topic was started in the "live steam" forum ??


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

A few random comments in no particular order . . .

I, like many others I suspect, read threads with interest here where I do not necessarily add content.

It seems as if the German site in question counts "hits" differently from the way MLS does it, so a fair comparison is not an obvious one.

If there are many other Gauge 1 and G Scale English language forums from which to choose that result in a dilution in community membership, I have not found them as yet.

I understand that the German site in question is inhabited by folks who scratch-build. There are many "engineering sites" to find around the net, places that specialize in CNC projects as well as 19th and 20th century conventional lathe and milling machine metal work, sometimes referred to as "engineering." (Thank goodness for the Chinese (Sieg, et al.) in this regard or there would be no such hobby.) It's a mixed bag with these other sites that is represented in terms of stationary and marine steam as well as locomotives and trains.

One does see scratch-building represented here.

As has been mentioned, some UK sites are very UK-centric, not that there is anything wrong with that if your are British. 

I am a relative new-comer 'round here, having lurked occasionally now and then for a couple years before registering in the past months.

We did have a thread that I started not so long ago on the subject of "How Many of Us are There." I do not think we came to any firm conclusions nor do we possess the tools to do so.

I think it would be difficult to make a claim on solid footing that this hobby is growing, rather than shrinking, but there may remain a core of hobbyists for some time to come. Let us hope.

It's good to see that "we" are apparently supporting the manufacturers of finished goods sufficiently for them to keep hanging on, despite the fact that it must be a struggle. I suspect that "hanging on" is what many of them are doing, rather than making a handsome profit in this field.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Two Blocked (Feb 22, 2008)

I've been loosing interest in visiting this site since the former owner moved along. I don't mean that his absence was a catalyst, merely a reference in time. 
A couple of months ago a gentleman from the ANZAK part of the globe, who identified himself as a grand, or maybe master MLS administrator, also mentioned that he was missing US posts that were lively and filled with photos and such. I'm guessing his name is David? His observations reenforced my suspicions about the status quo of the MLS site.
I need to ponder further as to what I think and feel about the previous commentators inputs, but I sorely miss the easy way that we used to use to attach illustrative photos about works in progress in our shops.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

gibs035, I watch every one of your videos plus anyone else's and pictures that people put up. I just get frustrated with all the "great pictures", "great video", "great post" I just see one video and 10 post's saying how great it is. Not much to do with the hobby. That's just my opinion though.

Is the hobby about to die? I was at a train show last weekend and yes locally we all ask this question. Our demographics are a large South Asian and Chinese/Japanese population so our situation may be different that other areas. A generalisation is the South Asians do not do hobbies, the Chinese/Japanese, especially the Japanese, do radio control cars and planes, mostly cars. At the show there was a great number of Chinese/Japanese kids from 12 to 20'sh competing in model building and interested in the hobby along with their fathers. First time I have seen this and it's great! I guess what I am saying is the hobby is not dead.


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## mikemartin (Feb 14, 2008)

I will admit I haven't been visiting much lately. When I do, I try to contribute in some way. However, the type of questions and postings have changed over the years. It seems to me that there is now a disproportionate number of "how can I get my engine to run right?" type of questions posted to the group. I have always been concerned that engines that don't run as well as expected "right out of the box" might do harm to our hobby. Could it be we are seeing the result of disappointed newcomers that have encountered early difficulties and have decided the hobby is not for them?


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Most of you guys probably had Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets, first generation Lego's, maybe just cut up chunks of 2 x 4 to play with as kids. Piles of stuff, junk and mish-mashed parts your imagination turned in to an empire. No instructions, no kits, no special accessories. Those days are gone. So is the imagination and creativity. Everything is turnkey. Buy everything -- instant gratification. Plunk down the money, run it for a while, loose interest, move on.

A hobby is a journey, not a destination.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I think mikemartin has a point.

My father had HO Marklin trains. We'd set these up at Christmas, for a couple weeks to a month or so, and I'd spend weeks beforehand planning the track on graph paper to use every last piece of it. That was it. And things were easier. A bit of oil, and run trains. An incandescent bulb burned out and the locomotive looked silly, oh well.

I bought modern Marklin. DCC and all that. The level of detail is way up. Sound. But I've had two locomotives fail completely, others that need to be jiggled to get them started, and constant cleaning of track. The modern stuff looks a lot better, but just doesn't run as reliably.

Love my LGB so far, though. Haven't cleaned track once. Weather was great last weekend, and I put a big loop of track out on my driveway and ran for a hour. 

Model railroading may be a hobby, but the models are consumer products, and as a consumer I expect products to work. Can be a car, computer, model train, makes no difference. I worked hard for that money, the half of it I kept after taxes. I'm sure I'm not alone in realizing how insecure jobs are, and how demanding and unrelenting expectations are for employee performance. Passing it on, when I choose to spend my hard-earned dollar.

Incomes have fallen. Costs have risen. Hobby spending is squeezed, and manufactures responded - but I'm sure part of that was sacrificing quality and reliability. Time is a struggle, too.

Newbie questions are a good thing - it means someone took the plunge to enter the hobby.


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## catherine yronwode (Oct 9, 2013)

Threads i follow / topics that interest me seem to have little traction here. I happen to like GARDEN railroading. Most folks here do not want to garden, just run trains. So i have drifted away.... Nobody cares about my miniature sedums (boo hoo hoo). Anyway, i do check in about once a month still, and more often in the live chat that happens every evening.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Bob, I get as much or more satisfaction making the LS locomotives run better or modifying them in one way or another. I don't have a single one that I haven't improved or changed in some way.


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Seems LS has more people logged in than other threads.
Pictures of steamups, modifications, and gossip make my morning when I come to work
jim


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

I come here a lot less often than I used to, and it's partly because all the new threads are dumped into a single steaming pile instead of the old way of sorting them by forum. The old way seemed more friendly and cozy, the new way is impersonal and corporate ("corporate"even when Shad still owned it).


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a hard time with the thumbnails. If I click on one it just comes up with a blank box with an X in the corner. If I actually want to see a picture I have to right click the thumbnail and then click "open link". I must say, there are some very talented craftsmen on this site and I very much enjoy reading their posts.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have the same problem with getting the black box when trying to view the full image from the thumbnails. If there is only one image, I have to click the "X" and reopen the image and then I can see it. If there is more than one image, I click "Next" through the whole list and when it gets back to the first one they are all then visible by clicking "Next" or "Previous". It is frustrating to have to do that.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I haven't figured out how to post photos that yield a thumbnail...thank goodness because they stink....I want to see the pictures!

I have been posting my photos to the gallery then looking at the full size posted photo in the gallery, right clicking to get the web address for it then pasting it into the add image box in the post editor. Kind of a pain in the caboose compared to how it was...I have to have two windows open and getting the pictures into the gallery in the first place is "a bit " convoluted too.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

To post images in the way that provides the thumbnails, (AND puts the photos in the MLS web-space so it does not detract from your 1st class space nor require you to upload them to some other hosting system)...

When using the ADVANCED editor ("Go Advanced" button), scroll down BELOW the "Submit reply" button to the "Manage Attachments" button. Click it and you get a new window that has several text boxes with adjacent "Browse" buttons... click one of those buttons and you get a file dialog box where you can search your local HardDrive to find an image you want to upload. Select it (and do others if you want in the other textboxes/Browse buttons) and then scroll down in that window to the "Upload" button and click it.

Scroll further down to put URL's in a list (for images that are hosted somewhere else on the internet).

Scroll further down to a list of file type (extensions) to see what sizes are allowed.

Yes, the thumbnails are a hassle to view for some of us, but the method of posting directly from your PC is easier, in that it is just one step to get them uploaded and into your posting.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Once the images are uploaded on the MLS server as instructed above you can then display each image and get the URL address and post that via the image button in the reply editor. The image will then be displayed within the body of post and also have the thumbnails down the bottom. 










Andrew


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

lets see if it works? I clicked on the loaded image attachment and right clicked to get its address and inserted it above.

well that works...thanks for the hints on how to do it, it was not self obvious.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Just as a matter of history...

When MLS first opened in the middle of 2000, it used the Schnitz forum software. One actually had to manually type in the [ img][ /img] tags and paste the image URL in between them.

When Shad changed to the "new" forum software (can't remember exactly - 2004?), one actually had a button (if one was a 1st Class member) to click - click the button, paste the image URL into the resulting popup window, and click "OK." *People HATED IT!!! * It was *"so much easier before!"* Non-1st Class members did have a harder time of it because they had to actually type in the HTML line used to display an image. Not real hard, but it required learning something new. *THEY HATED IT!!* One could "attach" images for the first time however, just like it is here now. No one used that feature.

When, several months later, Shad wrote and implemented the code to actually display one's 1st Class images as thumbnails in a box - you clicked the image button, found the image you wanted, and clicked it - *people HATED IT!!!* Why couldn't we just go back to the "simple" IMG tags used by the original software?

Now, we're essentially back to the old way of posting images with the IMG tags - slightly easier since one doesn't now have to actually type in the tags themselves - and guess what? *People HATE IT!!* LOL!!








People just don't like change.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

"People just don't like change. "

Bingo! I like the forum.....period. 
Larry


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

Dwight, I actually find the posting of pictures much easier now than with the forum software that existed when I joined in 2012. It actually takes me much longer to crop an image down to 800 pixels and upload it to Photobucket than it does to post the Photobucket url in this forum.
Yeah, change s**ks. During my IT career I had the opportunity to participate in the conversion of four different medical lab systems over the years. Without fail, lab staff routinely hated whatever system was replacing the previous system no matter how outdated or awful the previous system was. You know what though? After about 6 months no one could even remember the original system. At one site we even installed 3 systems over the years with predictable reactions from the staff each time. I would hazard a guess that this happens in any business when computer systems are changed. Kind of glad I am out of that now. I was the face of change and a walking "target". What the heck! Let's post a picture.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, Some cool photos above! I didn't mean to start a fire storm. I have figured what works for me to post photos and I'm OK with it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

No firestorm here... just amuses me as I have seen all the changes in the last 14 years, and the result is, as Wayne says, always predictable. Everyone's gonna HATE IT!! LOL!!


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight,
my intention was not to criticize the posting of pictures etc. I just wanted to compare views. However, as you tuned in, you might be able to shed some light on how views in MLS are counted:
- Are guest views counted?
- Are repeat views counted (e.g. following up on a build log)?
There were some comments about comparing apples and oranges concerning the number of G-scale forums. Be assured, they are roughly the same in the US/Europe. And to stress my point: This fairly silly thread (silly, though I started it) fetched so far more views than Bill's Byers build or Loek's Lombard log hauler.... Let's get back to the best hobby (or addiction) of all: live steam.
Regards


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Henner - you know as much about this forum software as I do. I used to be able to ask Shad or post questions in the Moderator's Forum... but no longer. Shad doesn't own MLS anymore and so isn't any more up on this software than anyone else, and posting questions in the Moderator's Forum results in stone silence from the Admins here now. We (the mods - what's left of them) are figuring things out as we go along - just like everyone else.

Other than deleting the occasional spam and/or general housekeeping, I don't participate in moderating much anymore. I have removed myself from all dispute/argument/attack resolution.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I guess we all hate having to re learn stuff...silly really...it isn't all that hard. 

Things could be easier and more self explanatory with this and many other software systems. Why is it necessary to "go advanced" when those features could easily enough be available in all "post response " modes


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree, but that kind of stuff is, imho, part of the "art" of writing software... making it intuitive, easy to use, and behaving how the USER would generally expect as opposed to how the PROGRAMMER thinks it should behave. As a semi-retired programmer myself, I can honestly say that creating a user interface that meets the former objectives is over half the job, and is harder than actually creating the logic and writing the code.

This is much harder in the "event driven" Windows type GUIs of today than in the old DOS days where the programmer could present a series of user prompts in a specific sequence requesting specific information or data..


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm one who also thinks the new software is easier to post pictures, although I know just enough to be dangerous on that front.

I regularly monitor the German forums, and I see very similar trends in participation ther in that there are regular posters who tend to dominate each forum. What I see more in the N/A forums, though, is that they become dominated by company shills or manufacturers, and that tends to put a lot of people off. It certainly puts me off and that's why I tend to post less here than I used to. Like with anything, bullies and shills like to hear themselves talk and they tend to jump from forum to forum wherever they can stroke their egos.
When I look at all the forums around the world, though, I still like many of the guys on MLS and there is a great knowledge base here.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I think its on its last legs.


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