# Garden Railroading and NMRA



## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

I had always thought of the NMRA as for the "little" scales (HO, N, etc) and not much to do with the Garden Railroad community. However, I just found out the Lone Star Region of NMRA is having their convention this week here in our area. I see that they are having a number of GR related clinics and there are some garden LS layouts on the layout tour. 

As I cruised through their website, I see they are a bit pricey and have some fairly sticky rules. Looking at the nickel and dime charges, their regional convention might even cost more than the NGRC if you do everything.


So, I am curious if there are many LS folks involved with NMRA? Is it worth it? AFAICT, there are no LS Clubs on their roster of affiliated clubs. So, I guess it is pretty much an individual choice.


Comments?


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, dear. Here it comes. Please note the emergency exits, clearly marked with illuminated signs. 

And, this might be a good time to put your helmet and vest on too. 

Let's see if I can cover it quickly, before it starts: 

1.) Of late, the NMRA has actually taken a great deal of interest in Large Scale as a virtually untapped resource. 
2.) Being so "tapped" has generated varying degrees of reactions in the Large Scale community at large. 
3.) Much of the reaction has to do with the "fairly sticky rules" you cite above, and their tendency to make a lot of things more than "a bit pricey." 

Some of the major driving forces involved actually frequent these pages and will no doubt have much to say, shortly. 

I'm gonna go dig up my duct tape and plastic wrap; Homeland Security seems to think that will help. 

Matthew (OV)


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

The scale Nazis of the NMRA have officially dropped all 7/8's scale, 1:13.7 scale (both 7/8n2, 2 foot/45mm gauge and 7/8n18, 18inch/32mm gauge) from its roster. I guess they like to pretend we don't exist. Ferd Mels who runs the 7-8ths.info website tried to get them to reinstate it. So, dear NMRA, you know where to stick it! 

-Brian


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

OMG, Michael just pulled the pin. Duck for cover. All in fun.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm (should I or shouldn't I?...) Oh what the hey..... The NMRA didn't give a fig about the Large Scale community for _decades!_ When they finally decided to acknowledge our existence they pretty much decided to re-invent the wheel. There are standards in place that we have used for decades but did the NMRA try and work with them? It depends on who you talk to... The big thing that torques most of us off is that we were ignored until they decided they needed the added revenue and now we are supposed to just go along with everything they decree? They're going to need to install heaters in **** before _that _will ever happen!
That being said...the NMRA has been a major influence in our hobby and I have been a member.....once. I paid my dues to Nationals and was told I now needed to pay dues to Regionals and to my Local Chapter(!!!) I didn't see any reason to waste my money so I didn't re-up when my membership expired. There are certain people that are trying to influence our hobby by being on "Standards" committees and their way of operating has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't want to start this up again. It's too hot and I'm too tired.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The NMRA came late to the large scale party and they aren't getting a lot of traction with large scale users. The perception is that the NRMA will just cost us more and, in stirring the pot, make things actually worse. 

The "standards" and "compatibility" issues were long ago defined by the various manufacture's own agendas and it is a little late to change them now. We're living with some anarchy now because of some of that, but it hasn't been a disaster.


BTW, you might want to add some asbestos underwear to your wardrobe....


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I am an NMRA Life Member. A friend, also a G scaler, is an NMRA director. Believe me, there has been internal pressure for NMRA to accept G scalers as part of the model railroading family. I know that we have been stirring it up withing the SFO Bay Area. 

Since the manufacturers have not settled on any standards within their own productlines, much less with each other. It would be helpful is someone, anyone, would get our manufacturers to adhere to some reasonable standards. They certainly don't right now. By the way, I am most interested in wheel and track standards. I wish the stupid socket thing would dry up and go away.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

G1MRA. 
Say it out loud.


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## Crosshead (Feb 20, 2008)

I'll take the existing G1MRA standards. No secret working groups or hidden agendas involved. 

I too wish the stupid socket thing would dry up and go away. 

Unfortunately, since it's the Stanley Ames NMRA Approved Socket, it's become impossible for me to differentiate between them. 

So in my thinking the NMRA can dry up and go away, and take the rest of all that with them. The sooner the better. 

Richard C.


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## Dr G (Jan 16, 2008)

Well, I have seen the heat on the boards here, and pretty much ignored it, controversy and stress in my hobby kind of defeats the purpose of a HOBBY







. I am an NMRA member, and have always been fond of the orginaization, especially the region--the folks are just great. As an organization that is attempting to further model railroading and promote the hobby as a whole, I think they do an admirable job. I think it is improtant to remember that for the most part the folks that run the NMRA do so as volunteers. I do understand that there are different opinions and personalities, but in the end this is a hobby. I do not thnk everything the NMRA does is great, I take what I like and I leave the rest. It is a personal decision, but for me it is an investment that is worthwhile. I look to items like DCC as my personal proof the NMRA is a good thing in the end. I realize that DCC is not perfect but the blossoming of the technology and interchangability has a lot to do with NMRA and thier "standards." Just my 2 cents--but remember my opinion is worth what you paid for it--NOTHN'.

Regards,

Matt


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Good Luck standizing the outdoor environment. Wind, rain, snow, water and vegetation are all 1 to 1. Love it or leave it. 
R scale = Real


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By Dr G on 05/31/2009 8:43 PM
Well, I have seen the heat on the boards here, and pretty much ignored it, controversy and stress in my hobby kind of defeats the purpose of a HOBBY







. I am an NMRA member, and have always been fond of the orginaization, especially the region--the folks are just great. As an organization that is attempting to further model railroading and promote the hobby as a whole, I think they do an admirable job. I think it is improtant to remember that for the most part the folks that run the NMRA do so as volunteers. I do understand that there are different opinions and personalities, but in the end this is a hobby. I do not thnk everything the NMRA does is great, I take what I like and I leave the rest. It is a personal decision, but for me it is an investment that is worthwhile. I look to items like DCC as my personal proof the NMRA is a good thing in the end. I realize that DCC is not perfect but the blossoming of the technology and interchangability has a lot to do with NMRA and thier "standards." Just my 2 cents--but remember my opinion is worth what you paid for it--NOTHN'.

Regards,

Matt


I second that.
DrG


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Funny this should come up today. I joined the NMRA to try to help in a particular area. It was a flaming waste of time. I won't go into the details, but there is a definite power structure that affects stuff. 

Anyway, that aside, just tonight I went through the standards pages on wheels and track, and there are some new standards that apparently will be approved thiis July. I've updated my "track and wheel standards" page on my site, and so far the new standards are an improvement in my estimation. Will any of the manufacturers follow them? Probably not. USAT is not likely to change, Aristo/Lewis wants the Morop/NEM standards (very loose and worthless in my opinion), and Bachmann is going to be heavily influenced by Stan Ames, which is a good thing here. 

Before I get flamed for that last remark, look at the new Hi-Rail standards on the NMRA site. They are closer to G1MRA, and better in my opinion in terms of being "tighter". 

Regards, Greg


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## Grant Kerr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/31/2009 5:39 PM
G1MRA. 
Say it out loud.





Said my 2 cents worth on this some years ago. The G1MRA standards have been around a long time. Why does the Enema-Ray need to change what is proven to work. Change for the sake of change? Perhaps, or as in the past a hidden agenda is about to be sprung again.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I went to a clinic at a NMRA regional meet with my father.....I decided at that time I did not need merit badges to enjoy the hobby....


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Awwwwww..... 

Just think about all the clinics hosted by Stanley you'll miss out on.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

In some ways the NMRA is like Washington. They see there's problems and they mean well by wanting to "fix" them (i.e. coupler standards and gauge standards to name just a couple) but they go about it in a heavy-handed way that is guaranteed to irritate (sounds better than p*ss off!) those of us in large scale! You see, if you are not a member of the NMRA then you aren't listened to. Only members of the NMRA get to vote on these "standards" that they expect to impose on all of us! It makes sense I suppose...they _are_ the largest model railroad organization and they _have_ undeniably improved our hobby with regards to the smaller scales. The "supersocket" debacle of 2007-08 is a good example of certain people working within the rules of the NMRA but (in my personal opinion) using underhanded and disreputable tactics to try and force their agenda! While this is a singular example, it _is _indicative of the autocratic and dictatorial _Modus Operandii_ that many of us large scalers have come to dislike. It's a shame really because the NMRA is the most organized group and they have a lot to offer the hobby. I will say this: they have good intentions. Take that for what it's worth.


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Once NMRA adopts the G1MRA standards I might listen to them.
Standards are good for interchangeability, and I sometimes get a feeling that the manufacturers don't even have standard they use at all. Back to back spacing for one is all over the place causing too many undesired operational troubles.


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## Jerm (May 7, 2009)

I can't speak of the politics and such behind the NMRA, but I will say the problem I have with them is the 'pricey'-factor. They once held quite a large convention a couple hours drive from me and I was all ready to go... until I saw the price. Keeping in mind I was but a humble (read: broke) college student at the time, I don't believe their affinity for high prices does anything but alienate.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Only members of the NMRA get to vote on these "standards" that they expect to impose 


We're all for standards, but until we are all allowed to vote they won't be getting anyone to 'buy in'. Perhaps they are putting the egg before the chicken, and getting us to join first (before proposing standards) might work. 

Re: prices. I joined the US Power Squadron when I got my power boat, as they had good education and civic programs, but I discovered over 50% of my dues went to support a bloated natiuonal bureaucracy, including a nice new building for the full-time staff. Not with my nickel - so I left.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Standards are always hard--I wrote a book on the invention of standard time. It was enacted by the Association of American Railroads in 1883, and not ratified in law till 1918. It worked because most people found it useful. There were a significant number of people who complained and refused to go along with a measure they didn't seek and didn't vote for. But most people went along because the innovation made sense. 

I have no idea if the NMRA's proposals makes sense, and I can't say I see any crying need for standards (though I like aristo's socket pretty well), but if they come up with stadards that work, that fit a need, thy'll be accepted.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Sitting firmly on the sidelines for many moons, I am reminded that as far as large scale goes, the NMRA is rather like the cure for which there is absolutley no disease whatsoever.

Large-scale NMRA - forgotten but not gone. 

My $0.02.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I watch the NMRA because you never know when a manufacturer might "embrace" their standards in G scale, so I want to know what might be coming. 

On this subject though, I encourage people to read the new standards about to be approved, it's not bad. I compare these standards to G1MRA and Morop on my web site. 

"track and wheel standards" under the TRACK section. 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

On this subject though, I encourage people to read the new standards about to be approved, it's not bad. I compare these standards to G1MRA and Morop on my web site. 


Greg, 

Thanks for the thoughtful page on standards. You are right - there isn't much practical difference between NMRA 'Standard' and the G1MRA. 

Which, to me, just means that NMRA should stop playing with themselves and adopt G1MRA, instead of causing confusion. Anyone who has thought of or experienced the problem has already adopted it.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

By accepting another outside groups standards would in effect negate a very big part of their very reason for existance, so that will never happen no matter how logical those other standards are.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

We fought them to a standstill last time, and the nmra used the G1MRA standards as the basis for the new LS standards. 
Voted on and approved. 

Manufacturers ignored them, once again stating "there are no standards", same argument they used when we used to point out to the G1MRA standards. 

Now we have someone who really likes to see his name in print pushing not only new standards, but new prototype standards for one company (which, I do hope, they have sunk). 

Bottom line: 

We had G1MRA as basis for nmra standards, voted on and approved last time. 

Now, as Vic says, the reason for existence of the nmra is to create standards, we are at it again. 

Did you know that the nmra does not look at specifics of what works and what does not? 

One person fairly high up in "the organization" told me that once that actual track gauge is set, they apply a mathematical formula to the numbers to come up with everything else. 

Wonderful.


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## Grant Kerr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/03/2009 9:38 AM
We fought them to a standstill last time, and the nmra used the G1MRA standards as the basis for the new LS standards. 
Voted on and approved. 

Manufacturers ignored them, once again stating "there are no standards", same argument they used when we used to point out to the G1MRA standards. 

Now we have someone who really likes to see his name in print pushing not only new standards, but new prototype standards for one company (which, I do hope, they have sunk). 

Bottom line: 

We had G1MRA as basis for nmra standards, voted on and approved last time. 

Now, as Vic says, the reason for existence of the nmra is to create standards, we are at it again. 

Did you know that the nmra does not look at specifics of what works and what does not? 

One person fairly high up in "the organization" told me that once that actual track gauge is set, they apply a mathematical formula to the numbers to come up with everything else. 

Wonderful.



You forgot the Fudge factor, TOC


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Grant! 

I hope things are going well.... 

Can you email me the picture you used to have on your site that has the SD-45 climbing up out of the rails? The too tight back to back? I've tried to explain this to many people, but your picture tells all! 

Regards, Greg


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## Grant Kerr (Jan 2, 2008)

Hope this helps Greg


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm....a picture _is_ worth a thousand words!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the one! 

If it's ok, will show it on my web site with credits to you. It''s a great example of what incorrect back to back gauge does, now put a 15 pound loco on top of that motor block and wonder how axles can be pulled out of the gear "hub" inside... 

Regards, Greg


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## Grant Kerr (Jan 2, 2008)

Be my guest to do so Greg. However I also point out that I did not take this photo but in fact , John Sipple, editor of Model Rail News did, after a review of one of my turnouts in that particular magazine. John is a passionate advocate of track and wheel standards and felt that this photo said it all.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's great! I've had some nice emails with John and I subscribe to that magazine. I like the unbiased viewpoint of that magazine. I'll credit both of you guys to be careful! 

Regards, Greg


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## neals645 (Apr 7, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 06/02/2009 8:40 AM
Standards are always hard--I wrote a book on the invention of standard time. It was enacted by the Association of American Railroads in 1883, and not ratified in law till 1918. It worked because most people found it useful. There were a significant number of people who complained and refused to go along with a measure they didn't seek and didn't vote for. But most people went along because the innovation made sense. 

I have no idea if the NMRA's proposals makes sense, and I can't say I see any crying need for standards (though I like aristo's socket pretty well), but if they come up with stadards that work, that fit a need, thy'll be accepted. 




Good point, lownote. Standard time is a fascinating topic - I recall reading an article about it in Smathsonian Mag. It was on the 100th anniversary, so this would have been in the 80's.

Before standard time you would take the train from New York to Philadelphia and have to set your watch back by 11 minutes (or whatever). It was a nightmare for those who make up the RR timetables. But apparently there were many who thought it would be an offense against God if the clock didn't read exactly 12:00 when the sun reached it's highest daily point in the sky.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It would have been 1883

There were a bunch of interesting cases involving the expiration of contract--if a contract expires at, say, 6 pm on June 5, what's meant by 6 am? There's a case that reaches the Supreme Court of Iowa involving last call at a bar--the bartender is arrested for being open too late, but he claims he goes by "solar time," not standard time. The Court sides with the bartender. "natures timepiece," the court says, cannot be superseded for the mere convenience of railway companies.


Fun stuff. but mostly, people just adjusted their clocks and went on as usual


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By neals645 on 06/04/2009 3:33 PM
Posted By lownote on 06/02/2009 8:40 AM
Standards are always hard--I wrote a book on the invention of standard time. It was enacted by the Association of American Railroads in 1883, and not ratified in law till 1918. It worked because most people found it useful. There were a significant number of people who complained and refused to go along with a measure they didn't seek and didn't vote for. But most people went along because the innovation made sense. 

I have no idea if the NMRA's proposals makes sense, and I can't say I see any crying need for standards (though I like aristo's socket pretty well), but if they come up with stadards that work, that fit a need, thy'll be accepted. 




Good point, lownote. Standard time is a fascinating topic - I recall reading an article about it in Smathsonian Mag. It was on the 100th anniversary, so this would have been in the 80's.

Before standard time you would take the train from New York to Philadelphia and have to set your watch back by 11 minutes (or whatever). It was a nightmare for those who make up the RR timetables. But apparently there were many who thought it would be an offense against God if the clock didn't read exactly 12:00 when the sun reached it's highest daily point in the sky.



Same thing was said about Daylight Savings Time... my Granddad was always happy to get back "on God's time" in the fall.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I could be wrong (memory ain't what it usta was), but I don't think the railroads were necessarily interested in having everyone else abide by their "official" time. Rather, time zones were created by them for their own convenience and safety - as was said, scheduling, etc. was a nightmare. So long as railroad employees and station agents observed official railroad time, that was all that mattered so far as they were concerned.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

William F. Allen, the President of the American Railway Association, wrote in 1882: "What is local time? Merely a mean arrived at by calculation and adopted for convenience. For all ordinary business transactions one standard is as good as another so long as all agree to use it.” Allen claimed that “railroad trains are the great educators and monitors of the people in teaching and maintaining exact time.” 

He argued that the people would take their time from the railroads, whether there was any enactment in law or not. The primary concern of the American Railway Association was that the federal govt., under the direction of the Weather Bureau, would introduce its own four zone system. The Weather service proposed four geometrically logical zones of exactly the same size, while what the RRs wanted was zones that changed where they already had an operational change of time. So the western boundary of the eastern zone, for example, was ragged and varied--it reflect what the RRS were already doing. So their primary goal was their own convenience, and they assumed the public would follow


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

About 18 months ago, the NMRA made a pointed effort to reach out to a non-NMRA large scaler who has been an outspoken critic of the standards process and the NMRA's perceived lack of respect for the large scale community. At the NMRA's invitation, this particular individual paired up with another large scaler--a manufacturer (an NMRA member/official) who knows a LOT about wheels and track--and put together a set of proposed standards based largely on existing standards from other groups, common practice within large scale, with a little tolerance thrown in for what manufacturers are currently producing, provided what they produce works. The NMRA has only just recently received those numbers. (They are not reflected currently in what's posted on the web as of this writing.) One would hope (and be led to believe) that given the nature of the initial overture, this material would be accepted and acted upon. 

Organizationally, I think the NMRA has a long way to go to overcome their negative perception within the large scale community. It's not insurmountable, and I believe there is a genuine interest within the organization (at least in some corridors) to take steps to do just that. They have some sizable hurdles. The NMRA, by its nature, is very scale driven.The large scale community has a scale-driven segment, but also has very sizable (arguably a good majority) population that simply likes trains through the tulips. The NMRA needs to separate the two pursuits, and focus on appealing to the scale-minded end of the hobby. They need to do this in such a way that highlights the efforts of those individuals who are of that mindset, not by chastising those who are not. You do that by example, you do that by active engagement, you do that by respecting the community and its long-standing practices and ways of doing things. Fail there, and you dig your own grave. 

Later, 

K


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## Hagen (Jan 10, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 06/04/2009 5:58 PM
" For all ordinary business transactions one standard is as good as another so long as all agree to use it.” 





Guess that sums it up well.
This one quote from some time ago really covers everything in life and manufacturing.

Now if all could agree, that is another matter


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The large scale community has a scale-driven segment, but also has very sizable (arguably a good majority) population that simply likes trains through the tulips. The NMRA needs to separate the two pursuits,


The G1MRA had exactly the same problem - Aster locos (scale wheels) and Bassett-Lowke (steam-roller wheels.) And no-one wanted to convert the toy-standard wheels on an heirloom 50-year-old "Flying Scotsman". Hence the adoption of "coarse" and "fine scale" standards. There's really no other solution to the problem. 

We can't have it both ways. Trackwork suitable for accurate scale models, e.g. Accucraft, Aster, will not be suitable for toys. My Bachmann (Spectrum) 2-4-2T "Lyn" lurches and bounces over the switches on Clem's portable track. 

Like everything else in garden railways, you have to make some tough choices.


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

The NMRA serves one purpose, and one purpose only. Cheap insurance. As a club, the Michigan Small Scale Live Steamers have a one million dollar policy that covers us at all events. The catch,...... all club members must be NMRA members in good standing, and the policy only covers the members and club as a whole. Price, last year our policy cost was $90 I believe. Not bad for liability insurance for a live steam club. 
As a NMRA member I also get a great price on insurance for my trains (and layout). The basic policy will insure over $16,000 for $100 per year. My insurance agent checked and found out most insurance companys either want to categorize live steam as a 'collector' policy ($$$$$), or won't touch them. I couldn't come close to the cost on my own even counting the outrageous NMRA membership dues.
Other an that, I have NO USE for the NMRA. They have done nothing for me or the large scale hobby as a whole.


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## Russell Miller (Jan 3, 2008)

The 2011 NMRA National Convention will be in Sacramento, CA July 3rd thru the 9th and they want the Bay Area Garden Railway Society to take part. It looks like we will be holding the West Coast Garden Railway Meet the weekend after the NMRA National closes, probably Thursday the 13th thru Sunday July 16, 2011. We do not want to overlap the 2011 NGRC in Kansas, but no one knows when that is. The point I'm trying to get to is that the NMRA wants to include Large Scale and we are willing to work with them.
Russ


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## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

Just finished 2 consecutive weekend of open house garden railroad tours.

First weekend was NMRA LSR Division 2009.


Had 29 people show up. I wanted to know if NMRA members where interested in Garden Railroading.

50% of the members said they have considered adding a garden railroad and some said they are close to starting.

We would have gotten more visitors, but the convention schedule was so busy that many people had to decide if clinics or tours was what they wanted. 


Other than that it was fun.

Last Saturday was our other Open House for the North Texas Annual Pond Tour, this was the 18th year for the tour. We have opened our backyard for 5 of those years but not consecutive years.


We had 130 people show up, many where repeats, some of them have come back just to see the garden railroad.

We use to have a Annual Garden Railroad tour the same weekend of the Pond Tour, but have not had on since 2005. Had some viisitors ask about that happening again.


BTW: the Temperature last Saturday was 96 degrees and the THI was 110 degrees. We ran trains from 8 am to 5 pm.


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