# drilling /milling bench top machine



## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I am looking to buy a drill/mill bench top machine and I am asking for suggestions, middle of the range.

Mohammed


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Grizzly has some decent mills. Micro- Mart, Little Machines have small mills. I have a HF round column mill drill that is OK. With DRO it is a lot better. Make sure up get one with a R-8 spindle. There is a whole lot more tooling you can use with it. 

Rodney


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Thanks Rodney, I will take a look @ Grizzly and harbor freight. I was not planning to get into DRO, I would be perfectly happy with a good quality manual machine. 

Mohammed


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Look at the HF mini mill. Micro-Mart sells the inch screws that will fit it. It not a bad mill and with a 20% off coupon makes it a good buy. 
One thing about the HF mill is that it is usually a good idea to tear it all apart and check everything and do all the fine adjustments to it as you put it back together. You can get a DRO's for less that $50 a axis and not worry about the lead screws. Little Machine Shop's mini mill is ready to go to work when you get it and it has a R-8 spindel. The Micro-Mart and Grizzly are #3 taper. 
The LMS is the best for what you get. It is more money, but in the long run it would be worth it. If it were me, I'd buy the LMS. 
Hope that helps 
Rodney


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Micromark sells two types;

Mini-mill:
http://www.micromark.com/microlux-h...,9616.html

Micromill:
http://www.micromark.com/microlux-m...,9683.html

Little Machine Shop sells 3 different ones:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pr...1387807683

Most of the Mini-mills are based on the same Chinese made machine, but each vendor has modified or redesigned some part of it slightly; such as Micromark changed the drive screws for the table to be calibrated in inches and one turn of the wheel is an even division in inches, whereas the others one turn is something like 0.625 inches. Little Machine Shop dot com eliminated the drive gears so it runs much quieter and when you accidently whack something with a fly cutter you break the only a drive belt that is easy to replace and you don't have to "completely" disassemble the thing to get at a gear that is a press fit on the spindle (I have the Cummins and what an utter PAIN it was when that happened!).


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Based on a quick look and read the littlemachineshop mills seem to be the better choice. I really do not know what I should be looking for, I have never machined anything in my entire life. I want to be able to work with pastics, brass, and aluminum blocks. 

Thank you both. 

Mohammed


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

The LMS will do very good for what you are going to machine. There is a lot of good forums machining forums when you have problems 
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/ 
is one that i use a lot. 
DON"T buy the cheap endmills, buy quality USA made. There is a lot of good import work holding stuff that is OK to use. I have a set of Shars collets and they are OK


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I was thinking of this?


http://www.harborfreight.com/media/..._11816.jpg


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

Go for it Marty, It'll work for turning your axles and that sort of things. I a decent little lathe. The biggest thing that it isn't very ridged. You'll have to take light cuts with it. 

Rodney


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty - I'm in the minority perhaps, but my advice regarding milling machines, lathes, etc.... you're going to get exactly what you pay for just like you do with other power tools. Buy something cheap and you'll have a lot harder time getting good results (do-able by using certain tricks of the trade, but harder to achieve). Especially for someone just starting out who may or may not realize that the cheap machine itself is part of the problem, they can easily blame themselves and become real frustrated real fast... "I just can't do this kind of stuff." You'd probably be better off getting an old Southbend lathe off eBay than something from Harbor Freight. Just my two cents.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

I have to agree with Dwight. I was contemplating a grizzly or Micromart Lathe a while back and the great folks her on MLS persuaded me to get an nice old South Bend 10" off of FeeBay. I'm So glad I did. The south bend I got is a MUCH more rigid and versatile machine for the same money! The one I got is a 3 phase machine Which to me was not a problem since I have other 3 phase machines I am installing a converter for. It would be easy to swap out the motor for a single phase however, if you don't want to go the 3 phase route. Here is the thread I'm so glad I started that ended in my buying a quality machine. 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/24/aft/122352/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I've also been looking for a milling machine, but want one that runs on single phase 220 at about 3 hp and will do aluminum. My machinist cuts my parts on a Fadal 2040, but I don't have the space or budget for something like that.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mohammed,

No one has mentioned Sherline yet....I have been very happy with mine. I would recommend you look at the long bed version, and their accessory list is massive. For drilling and milling you can add the vertical milling column. The nice thing about them is they are light so you can just shove it to the back of the workbench when you aren't using it.

http://www.sherline.com/4400pg.htm

Keith


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Any milling machine or lathe will machine aluminum. There are special end mills and cutters made specifically for aluminum with longer spirals in the flutes to get material out better as aluminum tends to get gummy and stick to the cutting edges (anyone who's drilled aluminum knows what I mean). Use cutting oil to help prevent that even if using a cutter designed for aluminum... ask me how I know that . 

Keith is correct. Sherline makes great little machines! I have their long bed lathe and their Model 2000 milling machine and I'm very happy with them. The size of the parts they can machine is limited as is their horsepower, but for small stuff like 1:20.3 or 1:29, they're more than adequate and as Keith says, they don't take up a lot of room or cost an arm and a leg. Their customer service and support are also terrific.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 12 Mar 2012 11:51 AM 
I've also been looking for a milling machine, but want one that runs on single phase 220 at about 3 hp and will do aluminum. My machinist cuts my parts on a Fadal 2040, but I don't have the space or budget for something like that.










That's a good size Fadal. Actually Haas makes some very nice NC vertical mills that would be ideal for a garage set-up. Price in the mid 50K range, I believe.

Link to nice mill.
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...20INCH_VMC

This would be ideal for the parts you are making for the Vette. This was the one I wanted when I retired, to do some hobby work.









Haas is actually a better machine than the Fadal. Haas' base foundation is stronger and more rigid. Better ways by far. Just my humble opinion. I ran and programmed Haas mills for fifteen years before I retired.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah that's a "good sized" machine. It's huge (about the size of a small bathroom) with a 20 hp motor and you can put over a ton on the table. It takes about 13 minutes to cut a part at ~$1/minute. My concern with a small machine cutting aluminum would be that you would need to take smaller cuts so it would take longer to make a part, and the life expectancy of the tolerances. As big as the Fadal is, he can hold the tolerances to 0.001" making thousands of pieces.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 12 Mar 2012 01:40 PM 
Yeah that's a "good sized" machine. It's huge (about the size of a small bathroom) with a 20 hp motor and you can put over a ton on the table. It takes about 13 minutes to cut a part at ~$1/minute. My concern with a small machine cutting aluminum would be that you would need to take smaller cuts so it would take longer to make a part, and the life expectancy of the tolerances. As big as the Fadal is, he can hold the tolerances to 0.001" making thousands of pieces.

Actually Todd, I held tolerances to .0005 and less, with a Haas V2. One ton was nothing for this machine to handle. 
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...40INCH_VMC

We also had a Haas V4.
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...64INCH_VMC

.001 is very common over thousands of pieces. Haas small machines will cut aluminum all day long at very close tolerances. That's why I mentioned the Haas has a very strong base foundation AND the "Vee" ways. I cut die steel for forging dies (Rc 45-50) and had no problems with heavy cuts. Depending on the size and how intricate the part is and number of operations, 13 minutes seems a little long to me. It's all in the programming! Is this the same part you have shown here on MLS? I used MasterCam to draw my parts and then post-processed though MC, for my toolpaths. Any questions, please ask.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Thank you all for the input. I have visited the websites of many of the manufacturers mentioned in this thread and a couple of other ones and I have narrowed my choice to these 2 vertical milling machines: the sherline 5400-5410 delux mill(US made) and the Proxxon FF230 mill (German made). Both appear to be of decent quality. Keith's comment about Sherline's long list of accessories' is pushing toward the Sherline. 

Mohammed


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 12 Mar 2012 02:06 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 12 Mar 2012 01:40 PM 
Yeah that's a "good sized" machine. It's huge (about the size of a small bathroom) with a 20 hp motor and you can put over a ton on the table. It takes about 13 minutes to cut a part at ~$1/minute. My concern with a small machine cutting aluminum would be that you would need to take smaller cuts so it would take longer to make a part, and the life expectancy of the tolerances. As big as the Fadal is, he can hold the tolerances to 0.001" making thousands of pieces.

Actually Todd, I held tolerances to .0005 and less, with a Haas V2. One ton was nothing for this machine to handle. 
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...40INCH_VMC

We also had a Haas V4.
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...64INCH_VMC

.001 is very common over thousands of pieces. Haas small machines will cut aluminum all day long at very close tolerances. That's why I mentioned the Haas has a very strong base foundation AND the "Vee" ways. I cut die steel for forging dies (Rc 45-50) and had no problems with heavy cuts. Depending on the size and how intricate the part is and number of operations, 13 minutes seems a little long to me. It's all in the programming! Is this the same part you have shown here on MLS? I used MasterCam to draw my parts and then post-processed though MC, for my toolpaths. Any questions, please ask.



This takes about 13 minutes. They are 5-1/2" long x 1-1/6" x 1". The top one was polished afterwards.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

While that's nice, I don't think Mohammed was planning on making small-block Chev alternator brackets using a $50,000 machine!  

Keith


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith's comment about Sherline's long list of accessories' is pushing toward the Sherline.Just an FYI - all the parts for my #21 (the loco in my sig) were made on my Sherlines. And Keith is again correct - you need it, Sherline's got it.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 12 Mar 2012 03:17 PM 
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 12 Mar 2012 02:06 PM 
Posted By toddalin on 12 Mar 2012 01:40 PM 
Yeah that's a "good sized" machine. It's huge (about the size of a small bathroom) with a 20 hp motor and you can put over a ton on the table. It takes about 13 minutes to cut a part at ~$1/minute. My concern with a small machine cutting aluminum would be that you would need to take smaller cuts so it would take longer to make a part, and the life expectancy of the tolerances. As big as the Fadal is, he can hold the tolerances to 0.001" making thousands of pieces.

Actually Todd, I held tolerances to .0005 and less, with a Haas V2. One ton was nothing for this machine to handle. 
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...40INCH_VMC

We also had a Haas V4.
http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp...64INCH_VMC

.001 is very common over thousands of pieces. Haas small machines will cut aluminum all day long at very close tolerances. That's why I mentioned the Haas has a very strong base foundation AND the "Vee" ways. I cut die steel for forging dies (Rc 45-50) and had no problems with heavy cuts. Depending on the size and how intricate the part is and number of operations, 13 minutes seems a little long to me. It's all in the programming! Is this the same part you have shown here on MLS? I used MasterCam to draw my parts and then post-processed though MC, for my toolpaths. Any questions, please ask.



This takes about 13 minutes. They are 5-1/2" long x 1-1/6" x 1". The top one was polished afterwards.








http://www.largescaleonline.com/eim...et_065.jpg />

Todd,

I see the three grooves on the "top". Are they on the "bottom" also? Is the hole in the center "tapped"? I assume the slots on the sides are all the way through. Looks like three set-ups, depending on the slots or "through slots". I assume your machinist is doing this with a fixture? I also assume the cuts top and bottom, are just clean-up cuts, so NO heavy hog-out cutting. 13 minutes STILL seems long to me. But then again, I'm making some assumptions which might be incorrect. The man I worked for has a shop full of Haas' (3 and 4 axis) and some with 5 axis capability). He is located in Santa Fe Springs. Do you need a name and maybe get a NEW quote?


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Keith: You are absolutely right. I wouldn't even know where to start. My planned first project is to cut a disc out of a sheet of pvc plastic and then drill a set of equally spaced holes around the perimeter, very ambitious don't you think.

Mohammed


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Dwight: is the # 21 brass or plastic, it look great and way above my pay grade. 

Mohammed


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I wouldn't even know where to start. 

That's OK, Mohammed...learning is half the fun! Just be patient and you will be amazed at what you can accomplish, and remember that lathes don't wear out, they are destroyed. There are lots of good videos you can watch these days too so you should be all set. 

Keith


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I use Sherline Mill's and Lathes too, great small equipment! And yes for the serious hobbyist and/or “Collector” Sherline offers an extensive list of tooling to complete the set. Not to mention there are DRO and CNC offerings too. 

I also have several Proxxon power tools and their duminitive MF70 Mill, I’m very pleased with all. 

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mohammed, 

How do you envision acheiving your lofty goal of spinning a disc complete with indexed holes? 

Michael


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Michael: 

I do not have the slightest idea at the moment, I am hoping that people like you will help get me there somehow!!! Proxxon has a little attachement that seems to fit the bill, and I assume Sherline does too. 

I was seriously tempted by the little Proxxon, and particularly by its $365 price tag. It is suitable for what I want to do?

Mohammed


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## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

There is a formula that you can use in the big Machinery's Handbook that uses just the X and Y axis. I've never tried it but my good friend uses it all the time. 
If it were me, I would use a rotary table with indexing plates.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 12 Mar 2012 04:08 PM 

Todd,

I see the three grooves on the "top". Are they on the "bottom" also? Is the hole in the center "tapped"? I assume the slots on the sides are all the way through. Looks like three set-ups, depending on the slots or "through slots". I assume your machinist is doing this with a fixture? I also assume the cuts top and bottom, are just clean-up cuts, so NO heavy hog-out cutting. 13 minutes STILL seems long to me. But then again, I'm making some assumptions which might be incorrect. The man I worked for has a shop full of Haas' (3 and 4 axis) and some with 5 axis capability). He is located in Santa Fe Springs. Do you need a name and maybe get a NEW quote?












The ball-mills are only on the top for decoration. Yes, it is a three stage job. The piece is first cut to just over length from 1-1/8" bar stock and locked in a Kent vice. The top is shaved and the sides (actually become the top and bottom) are contoured. The slots are drilled all the way through. The center hole is drilled and tapped 1/4-20. All the sharp edges are then smoothed.

Then the piece is physically removed, flipped over, and relocked in the vice and the bottom is shaved and edges smoothed. The piece is then removed and relocked along the sides to do the ball-mill on top. The ball-mill could be done during the side cut, but the this results in a slightly different end pattern that is not quite as nice looking. He may try that again in the future and with practice, it may be more presentable, but he won't drop the price either way. Finally, he goes over each piece with a scotch-brite to remove the tooling and machine marks and leave a satin finish. He said he could probably get it down from just under 13 to over 11 minutes if he had too.

I pay $11-12 smooth and $13-14 ball-milled or ribbed each including ~$2.38 in materials and he pays to have them cut by an outside source. (A stick makes 25.) If you can do them for that price or less, I'm all ears!

We also do a ribbed top and I actually took a fluted end-mill to a tool grinder to grind voids to do all the ribs in the pattern simultaneously. This is done in the contouring step and saves a set-up step and about 3 minutes on the ribbed spacers. Plus, the spacing between the ribs is small (under 0.1") requring a very small (and delicate) bit and this fluted end mill alleviates this problem.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

woow, this thread took off. right now money wise I like to go "bigger is better" and Richard Snyder in the club has nothing to do all day and he likes to help me when he can. So I will have him do it. 
I just need to learn about what is out there so I can grow in this area of creativity.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 12 Mar 2012 04:15 PM 
Dwight: is the # 21 brass or plastic, it look great and way above my pay grade. 

Mohammed 
It's all brass. The cab, boiler wrapper, and tank sides are 0.025" brass. The tank dome tops were turned out of something thicker (I want to say 1/4") brass. As for it being above your pay grade, this was the first serious machining I ever really did. But as Marty would say, I "cheated" and used CNC. hehehe I also built her atop a functioning live steam chassis, so I didn't have to make the really complex running gear like drivers, rods, cylinders, valves and gear, etc.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mohammed, 

I'd suggest you need a Mill, Lathe and indexing attachment or rotary table, there are alternatives that are doable depending on the precision your after. 

Is the plastic sheet/disc going to have a hole in the center? 

I’d spin the plastic sheet stock with a four jaw chuck in the lathe cutting out the disc, remount the disc in a three or four jaw chuck and mount the chuck to a rotary table fixed to the Mill table. Then simply rotate the rotary table in the increments desired and plunge cut each hole. 

If you have an indexing attachment and no Rotary Table there are alternatives. I have both the rotary table and indexing attachment; the rotary table is the least invasive approach IMO. 

If you had some way to index your chuck while mounted on the headstock/lathe that would be the simplest and least equipment needy method in play. There are methods to create an index-able headstock to lock and or hold the chuck in place. Its plausible to simply mark the holes where required and hold the chuck while drilling a pilot hole and stepping to the required hole diameter, precise its not (not a recommneded procedure but with thin plastic its doable). 

The lathes with a Mill axis added are NOT all that IMO, again to really take advantage of things you need to be able to lock the headstock or chuck and or index same to realize the full potential of a Mill/Lathe combo. I’d recommend you purchase a Lathe and Mill for the most flexibility. 

Michael


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Do not get a mill with a round column. Get one with a dovetail column. If you ever have to change tooling, the head on a round column mill slops right and left as you move it up or down. You loose the table setting. The head on a dovetail column mill moves straight up and down. You can change the tools and not loose the table setting.

Do not buy mill bits or drill bits from HF or Grizzly. DO NOT. Get high quality mills and drill from real live, no kidding industrial suppliers like McMaster Carr, Victor or Travers. 


How do I know this????


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I started out looking to buy a simple, bare bone vertical mill to get what I thought was a simple job done. I am now looking at the possibility of having to buy an entire machine shop to get that simple job done. Toys, Toys, Toys and more toys. 

Michael: Despite my being a novice at this, I do realize that I would need both the lathe and the mill for the job; the combos that I have looked at do short-change the mill, particularly in the size of the table. I will eventually get both, but I am going start out with a mill and a few accessories (like a rotary table and the indexing attachment) and pay someone to cut the discs . I guess there are people out there that do that. 

Mohammed


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mohammed, 

You know I forgot about the circle or fly cutter. With a mill you install the fly cutter, clamp down the plastic sheet (with disposable spacer underneath), cut the the disc, set-up the rotary table, index the disc and complete your perimiter layout easily. 

Michael


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The whole job could be done on a milling machine. All you need is the x-y coordinates of the holes - easily calculated with a little trig. As Michael suggested, use a fly cutter after the holes are drilled to cut out the profile. If you were to decide to invest a little more and get say, a Sherline CNC milling machine, you wouldn't even need a fly cutter as CNC allows milling almost perfect circles. With or without CNC, you wouldn't need a rotary/indexing table unless you need real precision (with CNC, probably not even then). Just a thought.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

I have already made the jump and ordered a Proxxon FF230 Mill. 

Dwight: May be once I learn how to use a milling machine, I will splurge and buy a CNC machine. 

Michael: what is a fly cutter and where do I get one? 

Mohammed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 13 Mar 2012 12:04 PM 
I have already made the jump and ordered a Proxxon FF230 Mill. 

Dwight: May be once I learn how to use a milling machine, I will splurge and buy a CNC machine. 

Michael: what is a fly cutter and where do I get one? 

Mohammed Mohammed,

I could draw the piece you need and include the dimensions you need. All in Mastercam...done for you and NO trig to give you a "headache".







Let me know.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Gary:

Thank you for the offer, do I need to have mastercam to view the drawing? and do I need a CNC mill to use it?

Mohammed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 13 Mar 2012 01:42 PM 
Gary:

Thank you for the offer, do I need to have mastercam to view the drawing? and do I need a CNC mill to use it?

Mohammed

You don't need Mastercam, I will send it as a pdf file. Just like a print. You just need to tell me where "0-0" (your starting point). All of your coordinates will come from there. Say for instance, this piece will be round. Find the absolute center of the piece and then use the coordinates on my print and dial right to the area to be milled (X and Y). Very simple!


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Mohammed, 

Highlighted link below for Sherline fly cutter attachment.

Fly Cutter attachment

Michael


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 13 Mar 2012 01:58 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 13 Mar 2012 01:42 PM 
Gary:

Thank you for the offer, do I need to have mastercam to view the drawing? and do I need a CNC mill to use it?

Mohammed

You don't need Mastercam, I will send it as a pdf file. Just like a print. You just need to tell me where "0-0" (your starting point). All of your coordinates will come from there. Say for instance, this piece will be round. Find the absolute center of the piece and then use the coordinates on my print and dial right to the area to be milled (X and Y). Very simple!










I am curious to try this, would you please send me the PDF to [email protected]

Mohammed


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 13 Mar 2012 02:07 PM 
Mohammed, 

Highlighted link below for Sherline fly cutter attachment.

Fly Cutter attachment

Michael

Thanks Michael


Mohammed


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 13 Mar 2012 01:42 PM 
Gary:

Thank you for the offer, do I need to have mastercam to view the drawing? and do I need a CNC mill to use it?

Mohammed

Will do.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Not following the thread seriously but there is a nice Cincinatti mill for sale locally in the Craigslist classifieds...Well under $1000 too! 

Chas


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 13 Mar 2012 03:26 PM 
Posted By mbendebba on 13 Mar 2012 01:42 PM 
Gary:

Thank you for the offer, do I need to have mastercam to view the drawing? and do I need a CNC mill to use it?

Mohammed

Will do.


Sample sent.


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