# Best book on DCC



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've tried asking dumb questions and reading manuals, so I need to get down to business. Is there a good book that explains the basics of DCC? 

When I find things like this, from the QSI manual "Bits 0-6 are data bits, which specify the locomotive’s seven bit Primary Address. A zero means, “Do not attempt to 
write a 1 to this bit” I figure I've got some homework to do 

Any recommendations?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've read a number of books, but most of them seem slanted to pushing one brand or another. I have not really read anything that impressed me as being the "cat's meow" of helping people explain it. 

One thing that does throw people for a loop is binary numbers... do you have a friend that teaches math? 

I find that sitting with a person, and showing them how the 1s and 0s work is easy if you can make a couple of diagrams on a piece of paper, basically relating base 2 math to base 10 (which we all understand). 

It's really like our numbering system, but you can only use 0 and 1 instead of 0 through 9. Each digit is called a bit, instead of a digit. 

I read the red book of DCC, I forget who wrote it. It was touted as the best one, slanted towards digitrax, but it's good. 

Maybe Stan Ames will recommend something, he knows a lot about DCC. 

Or, get on chat one evening, and we can have fun. There are some sharp people there that are good at explaining stuff....oh, and I'm on there too, for what it's worth. 

Bob Grosh and George Schreyer are both DCC experts in my estimation, and they are on most every night... usually starts at 7pm pacific time. 

Regards, Greg


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

lownote, 

Check out this thread.. 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...rumid/34/postid/48287/view/topic/Default.aspx 
Should answer all your questions.. 

BulletBob


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote, what is you are trying to figure out? Are you wanting to learn more about DCC from a usage point or something more detailed so that you could develop your own decoder, for example? I've noticed over the years that musicians make good computer programmers. I don't know diddly about writing music so I can only guess that it's because they are both mathematically related. 

If you want to get into the guts have you seen the NMRA DCC web pages? Some things are slighted towards smaller scales but it all works the same in G, just higher voltages and amps. 

 DCC Standards


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. O'Malley

*Big Book of DCC*

*DCC Made Easy*

*Digital Command Control; The Comprehensive Guide to DCC*

*DCC Guide; How to Select and Use Your Command Control System*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks steve--I can look on Amazon, I was more interested in recommendations, as I said. 


I never came to large scale from any other scale--I've got no experience in DCC at all. The manuals that come with the brand I've been using--QSI/Airwire--are big and hard to follow. The sentence I posted, about individual bits--I have no idea how to deal with that. People who understand DCC often have a hard time understading where the begginer is coming from. 


I have glanced theough the FAQ at Tony's Trans--I'll try that again


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

"*Digital Command Control - the comprehensive guide to DCC *" is, as the name promises, probably one of the most comprehensive books I've come across. I think it was published in '96, and some of the material, like DCC system reviews, is now rather dated, but the basic info is all there and most of it is the same. We now have more functions available, etc., but the definition of a function hasn't changed, nor has how they work changed... we just have more of them. 

It's a better, more in-depth book than anything published by Kalmbach. Hope that helps.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Dwight!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. O'Malley

When you are "Programming" a CV value, all you are doing is storing a number in a memory location on the decoder board. Most of the time you enter the number in decimal format, but when it's stored in memory it's in binary format.

So for example if you program (i.e. store) CV-25 with the value 3, then in whatever memory location CV-25 is stored you'll find the bit pattern as depicted in the fourth row from the top in the table below.

If on the other hand the instructions tell you that you want a 1 (i.e. one) located only in bit positions 0 (i.e. zero) and 2 of say CV-43, then you have to combine the positional values to come up with the correct number to enter, in this case that would be a decimal 5 (five). As depicted in the bottom row of of the table below.










In another example, if the instruction said that you could use bit positions 0 thru 7, but bit position 6 could never be anything but 0 (zero). Then the decimal numbers that you could use would be those contained within the ranges listed in the top & bottom sections of the matrix below. However, any numbers contained within the middle range would be not available for use, because any one of them would cause bit position 6 to have a 1 stored in it.

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 = 0 Numbers In This Range
0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 = 32+16+8+4+2+1 = 63 Are Available For Use
******************************************************************
0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 = 64+32+16+8+4+2+1 = 64 Numbers In This Range
0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 = 64+32+16+8+4+2+1 = 127 Not Available For Use
******************************************************************
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 = 128+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 = 128 Numbers In This Range
1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 = 128+0+32+16+8+4+2+1 = 191 Are Available For Use


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

You can thoroughly understand using base two, or you can just use it. Many of the CVs are listed in various tables. Join the Yahoo group for the system you choose and they will probably have a table of wht to put in.

Here are a couple of sites to use:

DCC Wiki site 



Digitrax table 

AS far as rolling your own you can tgry this with a pencil and paper.

1) To convert from base 10 to base 2. Divide the number by 2 and write the remainder down (it will be 0 or 1). Now divide the answer by 2 and write the remainder down to the left of the preceding remainder. Continue doing this, writing the remainder down to the left each time, until there is nothing left. Add enough 0s to make 8 numbers and you have the base 2 number. (This works for base 8 if you divide by 8 and base 16 if you divide by 16. In base 16 you write a remainder of 10 as A, 11 as B, 12 as C, 13 as D, 14 as E, and 15 as F.)


2) To conver from base 2, multiply the first digit by 2. Now add the second digit (even if it is a 0) and multiply by 2 again. Continue across the number until you reach the last digit, but do not multiply by two the last time. The result will be the base 10 number you are looking for. (For base 8 just multiply by 8 each time except for the last time. For base 16, you guessed it







multiply by 16 remembering what A B C D E and F mean.)


However, most of this can b e done in base ten as the newer systems all seem to allow you to program the CVs in base 10.


Hope this helps.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ironton on 01/07/2009 6:46 AM

2) To conver from base 2, multiply the first digit by 2. Now add the second digit (even if it is a 0) and multiply by 2 again. Continue across the number until you reach the last digit, but do not multiply by two the last time. The result will be the base 10 number you are looking for. (For base 8 just multiply by 8 each time except for the last time. For base 16, you guessed it







multiply by 16 remembering what A B C D E and F mean.)

Rich

While I understand what you've said above, for someone that's trying to learn binary conversion it will most likely confuse them. There are many individuals that would start from the right (i.e. least significant bit) and work to the left (i.e. most significant bit). When for the above instructions to work you have to be working from the left to the right.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably the easiest way to program your decoders is via your computer and JMRI's DecoderPro[/b][/b] (freeware). It's all done graphically on your computer screen.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Aaaaaaaaahh!! Maths. 

I truly admire anyone that can get their head around that stuff. 

I surely cannot.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/07/2009 1:21 PM
Aaaaaaaaahh!! Maths. 

I truly admire anyone that can get their head around that stuff. 

I surely cannot.


I fully agree with Tony. DCC is a network protocol and the last thing you want is to require users to try to understand the underlying protocal. Its like having users on this forum understand the parameters of TCP/IP which is the underlying protocal we are using to communicate. We all use TCP but except for a few of us, most do not know or care it is there.

There are absolutely no requirements for a system to expose this level of detail to the end user. Some systems expose this while other systems do not. In my opinion I perfer a system that hides most of this and presents a rich environment with no need for DCC experts to configure or explain it. Hex is in my opinion is something best left to the bit heads and is definately not a prototypical railroad thought.

Most DCC decoders and systems provide a very rich environment that lets you configure a decoder to the specific needs of a locomotive. For those that want this level of sophisocation it is there. For those ysers who have no need it can be ignored.

Dwight, thanks for the complement on the book, it was fun writing it and even more fun to get all the manufacturer signatures on it.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Stanley.
I meant it about Maths in general.
Not specifically about how DCC works.
But, if that is what it takes to master DCC. So be it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, thanks for the complement on the book
You're welcome Stan. Good book. It needs a revised edition to bring it up to date.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By StanleyAmes on 01/07/2009 2:08 PM
DCC is a network protocol and the last thing you want is to require users to try to understand the underlying protocal. Its like having users on this forum understand the parameters of TCP/IP which is the underlying protocal we are using to communicate. We all use TCP but except for a few of us, most do not know or care it is there. 

Stanley

I wouldn't say that DCC or Battery/RC in and of themselves are exactly what you'd call a "prototypical railroad thought" either. Or for that matter, many of the other things discussed on the forums that relate to the hobby.

The key point, is an individual posed a question regarding which were considered good books on DCC (Digital Command Control), and an answer was provided.

Additionally, the reason for the request was expressed, as indicated by the following.
Posted By lownote on 01/05/2009 10:48 PM
When I find things like this, from the QSI manual "Bits 0-6 are data bits, which specify the locomotive’s seven bit Primary Address. A zero means, “Do not attempt to write a 1 to this bit” I figure I've got some homework to do 

Since as you've stated some providers of DCC equipment do make mention of the level of detail to which you object and others do not.

An attempt to address the implied interest in understanding what was being said by the manufacturer of the product, and the resulting confusion expressed by the individual, regarding bits and how they relate. A rather basic explanation was provided.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did someone post an online Base-2 calculator/converter, and I missed it? Would seem good for beginners and to double check those of us who think they know it! ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

If you're running MS/Win of some flavor why not just use the calculator, put in scientific mode and switch back and forth between bin & dec.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ding! Give that man a cigar.... I knew there was a simple answer. I've never turned on the scientific mode to see what is there. 

Go to the head of the class! 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Win has a calculator? 

What else will they think of next?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Win has had a calculator since at least v3.1 (and I don't think it's been changed or upgraded since - hehehe). You guys need to explore the Start Menu a little more.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've got a calculator about 12" away from my left hand. Battery operated too.









There is a start menu in Win?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/07/2009 7:33 PM
Ding! Give that man a cigar.... I knew there was a simple answer. I've never turned on the scientific mode to see what is there. 

Go to the head of the class! 

Greg
Yep, and there's HEX & OCT too, but if your in need of Bi-Quinary your out of luck.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 01/07/2009 11:51 PM
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/07/2009 7:33 PM
Ding! Give that man a cigar.... I knew there was a simple answer. I've never turned on the scientific mode to see what is there. 

Go to the head of the class! 

Greg
Yep, and there's HEX & OCT too, but if your in need of Bi-Quinary your out of luck.











BiQuinary? Did you used to use a Univac????


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 01/08/2009 12:45 AM
Posted By SteveC on 01/07/2009 11:51 PM
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/07/2009 7:33 PM
Ding! Give that man a cigar.... I knew there was a simple answer. I've never turned on the scientific mode to see what is there. 

Go to the head of the class! 

Greg
Yep, and there's HEX & OCT too, but if your in need of Bi-Quinary your out of luck.









BiQuinary? Did you used to use a Univac????

No, IBM 650







A very, very old and worn out one I might add.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

These calculator stories remind me of something that happened 15 or so years ago. Our Chief Engineer (a friend of mine) walked into my office one day with his expensive high-end HP calculator in hand. It seems his keys, etc. were getting dirty and he wanted to clean them. One of the salesman suggested a particular solvent, and the C.E. tried it. By the time he got to my office, the keys were starting to soften. 

He was understandably upset (and self-recriminating for following such dumb advice), and he wanted to remove the casing and let the keys air-dry. In fact, he'd come to me to see if I had a small Phillips that would fit the casing screws, which I had.

He removed the screws and carefully separated the casing halves, at which point all the keys fell out into a pile on my desk. It was about the same instant that it dawned upon him that the legend (marking) of what each key did was on the key itself, which were now in a disorganized jumble on my desk, and t was suddenly apparent he had no idea which key went where. The expression on his face at that instant was priceless - one of those little moments that happen every once in a great while.







I laughed until I had tears streaming down my face!!!









To add insult to injury, about that time the aforementioned salesman stuck his head in my door and asked, "Did it work?" The CE's response... "I think you better get out of here!" By this time I'm literally holding my sides, I'm laughing so hard!! 










One of the funniest things I've ever witnessed. True story.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I think part of my confusion is the way CVs with a primary index and then secondary values. I really need to read the manual, but it's not in what I'd call good English. QSI Has a "CV Manager" program, but it's not organized the way one would want--you can cange CV values by typing, but you can't select them by description. Why not have a piec eof software that says "Chnage bell volume" change start speed" etc and then lets you move a slider? 

That's maybe what the prgram you linked to does, but it need a computer with a serial port, which I don't have


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

but it need a computer with a serial port, which I don't have 
Use a USB to Serial converter. There are several out there, but they're not all created equal. Keyspan makes one of the best.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight:

All the Chief Engineer had to do was get the instruction book and look at the picture of the calculator to see where the keys go!

Wanna know WHY I know that little tidbit of a tip?!?!?!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper - as it turned out, that's exactly what happened. He had kept the original box (the calculator was several years old, but replacing it would still have cost some serious coin). It all ended well, but I'll never forget the look on his face when the keys dropped out.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 01/08/2009 3:20 PM
I think part of my confusion is the way CVs with a primary index and then secondary values. I really need to read the manual, but it's not in what I'd call good English. QSI Has a "CV Manager" program, but it's not organized the way one would want--you can cange CV values by typing, but you can't select them by description. Why not have a piec eof software that says "Chnage bell volume" change start speed" etc and then lets you move a slider? 

I take it you are referring to pages 84~88 in the QSI Quantum manual.

Look at it this way, one of the areas that QSI had available to use is the CV-47 to CV-64 range, which is designated by the NMRA as "Manufacturer Unique" (Reserved for manufacturer use). That gives them a total of 18 memory locations (which QSI calls registers) to use. However, they have need of a great many more memory locations to implement all the features they've decided to include in their product. So they have figured out a way to expand that relatively small amount of memory to what they need without going outside the NMRA specification.

One of the implementations of this was with CV-52 the Individual Sound Volume Control. If QSI had stuck with just the one memory location (i.e. register) provided by CV-52, the best they could have done is assign each bit (i.e. bits 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7) of CV-52 to one of the features, which would let them enable/disable a maximum of 8 features.

However, what if we did this in our implementation instead. We referenced the CV-52 as CV-52.0, and then added CV-52.1, CV-52.2, CV-52.3, CV-52.4 CV-52.5 etc.etc., we've effectively expanded one memory into many. The next thing we need is some way to control just which one of the relabeled CVs we actually access and stay within the available CVs specified by the NMRA.

What QSI did was to use the CV-49 memory location (i.e. register) to store the number to the right of the decimal point, and decided to call it the Primary Index (PI). Which stores the decimal index numbers 0~255 (i.e. 00000000~11111111 binary). Thus, when the value stored in CV-49 is combined with CV-52, the result becomes the index to which of the relabeled CV-52 locations you actually access. Note, in the table on page 95, there is only one column that lists the features (i.e. the Sound column), which QSI refers to as a 'one-dimensional table' (i.e. a table with multiple rows, but only a single column). The left column gives you the valid values to set CV-49 to when working with CV-52 to set the volume level of a particular sound. The right column lists the typical default values for each of the respective sounds.

For example: to set the volume of the Bell.
[*] On the AirWire do whatever keystrokes are required to set CV-49 to a decimal value of 8
[*] Next do whatever is required to set the CV-52 decimal value to what level you want.
(Note: the only valid values are in the 1~15, (0 = no sound), while higher values may be entered they'll be ignored)
[/list] The other implementation is the Two-dimensional table (i.e. a table with multiple rows & multiple columns).

To make use of this two-dimensional table you need two indexes. Well we've already got one CV-49 the Primary Index (PI), which stores the value that tells us which row in the table to access. So they added CV-50 as the other index and called it the Secondary Index (SI), which defines which column to access. Where the row and column intersect is the memory location (i.e. register) that is being accessed. With this configuration we can have a table that consists of 256 rows and 256 columns, resulting in a potential of 65,535 memory locations.

For example: CV-53 Output Feature Assignment uses this type of implementation, with a table that has 14 rows and two columns.
[*]To set the Feature Assigned to Output 5 in Forward/Reverse. [*]Do whatever you have to do on the AirWire to... [*]Set Primary Index (PI) CV-49 to a decimal value of 5 (row 5 - output 5). [*]Set Secondary Index (SI) CV-50 to a decimal value of 0 (zero)(column 0 - Forward/Reverse State) [*]Set CV-53 to a decimal value of 9 (Feature ID of Long Air Let-Off)
[/list] [*]To set the Feature Assigned to Output 5 in the Neutral state. [*]Do whatever you have to do on the AirWire to... [*]Set Secondary Index (SI) CV-50 to a decimal value of 1 (column 1 - Neutral)
_(Note Primary Index (PI) CV-49 is already set for row 5 no change is required)_ [*]Set CV-53 to a decimal value of 10 (Feature ID of Short Air Let-Off) [/list] [/list] 

Hopefully the above will be of help.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you steve. It's getting clearer. I had managed to follow the directions in the manual vis a vis sound volume, but did not understand what I was doing


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## pryzby1963 (Feb 16, 2008)

Can the JMRI products - DecoderPro and Panel - be used on a DCC system using Massoth controls and central station. I have the Massoth programming module as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dunno, but go to the JMRI site and see, lots of good info there on JMRI. 

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By pryzby1963 on 17 Dec 2011 03:46 PM 
Can the JMRI products - DecoderPro and Panel - be used on a DCC system using Massoth controls and central station. I have the Massoth programming module as well. bob:

If you have a Massoth programming module you do not need to use DecoderPro; Massoth has an excellent, easy to used program to do that. It is called *DCC programmer* and you can download it freely from Massoth' s website. You can use DCC programmer to program any Massoth, LGB, and piko decoder as well as other NMRA compliant decoders.

You can use Control Panel, or any other layout control software with your Massoth central station. You do need any additional hardware or sofftware to do it, just connect your computer to the central station's RS232 or USB 2.0 terminal and run ControlPanel.

Mohammed

www.allaboutlgb.com


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sure the Massoth software does a nice job programming, but JMRI is a very full featured software product:

*http://jmri.sourceforge.net/* I'll not enter into whose best, but the number of features of JMRI is way beyond the Massoth programming software.


Just look at the basic features on the link.

Unfortunately, here is the list of supported hardware:

Supported hardware [/list] 

Atlas Commander
C/MRI
Digitrax
EasyDCC
ESU
Fleischmann
Hornby
Lenz
Lionel TMCC
NCE
RPS
Oak Tree Systems
Protrak Grapevine
Roco
SPROG
Uhlenbrock Intellibox
Viessmann Commander
Wangrow
Zimo MX-1
ZTC 


Massoth is not one of them... very interesting...



So you may be stuck with only the Massoth software.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been able to program QSI decoders using JMRI, even though it's not listed there as supported. You can't upload sounds to a QSI decoder using JMRI, but you can make most of the other CV changes. I find that QSI' programmer is easier to use with QSI's decoder, but otherwise, JMRI is a really nice set of software


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

@lownote:

That's because the listing reflect the central station to whcih JMRI talks - not the decoders.

JMRI --> Central Station --> Decoders

Assuming that the Central Station send correct DCC signals out and that the decoder is DCC compatible JMRI doesn't have to talk about it. What is important which central station JMRI supports (PC's serial interface to central station's serial interface + plus protocol implementation tha tis different from station to station).

The reason why you can't program sounds, is that while they still use the track input the signal and data structure needed for this is different. They need a specialized loader, and you can't modfy the DCC output to do that, nerither is JMRI aware of it either. To accomplish this one day for all decoders you would need to standardize protocol and interface and allow something like XML to deal will decoder to decoder specific features.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He was asking about running JMRI into the Massoth system. JMRI interfaces to most DCC systems by either a serial or usb port. 
That communication is not supported on the massoth system.

Greg


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Massoth chose not to give the JMRI group the protocol that allow software to communciate with its hardware, but gave the protocol to the RocRail, a competing, and by some accounts a more impressive open source Model Railway control system. 

Mohammed 
www.allaboutlgb.com


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen, I'm all for the spirit of giving this holiday season, but headaches are not on the top of my list. To the two parties whose posts I just finished extensively editing and/or deleting, you both know the rules. Keep the personal stuff off the forums. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some eggnog calling my name. 

Later, 

K


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, Why do you make all the good heated posts disappear?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By adelmo on 19 Dec 2011 05:35 AM 
Kevin, Why do you make all the good heated posts disappear? 
Yeah........ I was wondering the same thing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

While you are at it Kevin.... unless Mohammed is paying for advertising, why are you allowing his signature link to his store?

He's only here to sell Massoth. Why does he get an exception to the rules?

Greg


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Kevin 

Thank you. The two guys wearing the clown suits need to provide useful information instead of the continuous "you are an idiot!.... NO you are an idiot!!" bantering. 

The ONLY thing I got out of the recent posts is that Massoth has made a decision, for what ever reason, NOT to provide technical information to one of the most widely used DCC programming tool boxes. It is their corporate prerogative to restrict the possible/probable customer base for their product. It certainly helped me in MY decision process.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice... I'll remember the clown suit reference Jim. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 19 Dec 2011 08:43 AM 

The ONLY thing I got out of the recent posts is that Massoth has made a decision, for what ever reason, NOT to provide technical information to one of the most widely used DCC programming tool boxes. It is their corporate prerogative to restrict the possible/probable customer base for their product. It certainly helped me in MY decision process.

I agree with you - the posts should have been left up.

You had the "privilege" of being able to read to bantering back and forth and you used it in your decision making proces as to which DCC system to buy - anyone reading that thread now for the first time unfortunately won't have that additional information to make their decision. 


Knut


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## pryzby1963 (Feb 16, 2008)

As the originator of the question on JMRI and Massoth, I appreciate Dr Rivet, Jim Stapleton, for stating what I was trying to determine. I had read the JMRI manuals and it did not list Massoth as being supported. But, I thought that one of the many contributors to MyLargeScale might be able to shed some light on the question - Had anyone used JMRI with Massoth?. 

Interesting I have asked only two questions over my 3-5 year membership with MyLargeScale and both times these two individuals got into a rousing unproductive responses as if they were the Hatfields and McCoys. 

Enough said, I also will go get a glass (cup) of eggnog. Happy Holidays to everyone.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

@Knut, I deleted only the personal attack parts of the posts, which are forbidden under forum rules. The few shreds of factual, beneficial information were left in place. 

@Greg, it is accepted practice on this forum to allow manufacturers and merchants unobtrusive links to their web sites in their sig lines. We actively encourage manufacturers' and merchants' participation, as we all benefit from being able to talk straight to the source with our questions and concerns. By allowing them to post links to their store/company web site, it makes it clear to the reader that they may have a vested interest one way or another in the discussion. You may see it as "unpaid advertising," but another way to look at it is "full disclosure." What manufacturers and merchants _cannot_ do is use every post as a sales pitch, and that is policed fairly regularly by the moderators. It is, however a very fine line with lots of grey area. If a forum member posts "hey, I'm looking for a product that does this," we have to allow the merchant or manufacturer to respond with "I sell a product that does this." We cannot exclude manufacturers from doing that, lest it foster an army of "alias" accounts where the reader has no clue that the poster is really the manufacturer. I would remind all readers that if you see something you perceive as a "sales pitch" from one of our manufacturer or merchant members, feel free to click the "alert" icon in the upper right corner of each post. We'll take a look at it. 

Later, 

K


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, bottom line you wiped out entire posts for name calling and dismantled the heart of thread. 

I dropped 1st class because of this type of action and rules. 

Alan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Alan, I make no apologies for doing so. 

From "the rules:" 
_1.1 - Courtesy to other members at all times is the Cardinal Rule here on myLargescale.com (aka "MLS"). Personal attacks, insults, and/or flames will not be tolerated, nor will heated arguments. Impersonal debate on products, methods, etc. is fine, just keep it civil._ 

It's sad when out of a half-dozen or so posts between two members, only three lines of text _don't_ violate that rule, but that occasionally happens when passions get ignited. Our job as moderators is to "moderate," which means stepping in when those passions become infernos. Nothing of substance was deleted. I'm sorry you feel moderators maintaining civility on the forums to be grounds for withdrawing your financial support, but that's entirely your prerogative. Civility is called the "cardinal" rule here, and that's the environment we moderators have agreed to maintain. 

While on the subject of "the rules," to Greg's point about manufacturers'/merchants' links to their web sites in their sig lines--it's explicitly spelled out that they're allowed, even encouraged to do so. 
_1.4 ...An identification of their business involvement is encouraged perhaps with a link to their business website on their signature block._ 

Later, 

K


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 19 Dec 2011 08:43 AM 
The ONLY thing I got out of the recent posts is that Massoth has made a decision, for what ever reason, NOT to provide technical information to one of the most widely used DCC programming tool boxes. It is their corporate prerogative to restrict the possible/probable customer base for their product. It certainly helped me in MY decision process. 

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a company not to divulge proprietary information to a third party; that's not unique to Massoth, other Large Scale manufacturers do that as well as does the whole industry in general.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 20 Dec 2011 09:23 AM 

From "the rules:" 
_
_
Kevin,

Could you move the link to the "rules" to a place where it is more accessible and easily found?

I just looked for it and gave up after a few minutes, it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the "Forums" page.


I recall that quite a while back the same question came up that there was no easily accessible link to the rules, seems nobody ever fixed that.


Knut


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Knut, it's a sticky near the top of the "Public Forum" forum. I agree, it's not 100% intuitive to find. I'll drop a suggestion that perhaps we put them under the "Resoruces" pull-down menu. 

K


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks Kevin, 

I would have never found that since I hardly ever look at the public forum. 

I would also suggest that someone at MLS be assigned maintenance responsibility for the site. 
I sometimes have problems posting pictures, not that I do that very often bacause I have to first upload them to my MLS webspace, but when I tried the two links related to posting pictures in the "Rules" posting, neither one of the links was clickable and when I copied and pasted them into the browser, they both essentially went nowhere. 

Maybe the better appraoch would be to just delete what Shad posted on that subject in the Public Forum sticky - update the original Rules file one gets when one registered intially (if needed) and add a link to that rule descripion under "Resources" and maybe also at the top of the forum page since the forum is where they mostly apply. 
That way there is only one "rule page" to maintain. 

Knut


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