# Stainless steel drive rods vs. Blackened steel drive rods



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

So, as you may or may not know. AML seems to use a blackened steel finish on their drive rods which is somewhat glossy. If you have an AML live steamer you will know what I am speaking of here. The Dockside and the 0-6-0 switcher have them. Rather than the stainless steel they seem to be a bit cheaper in quality by the looks of them, but is there a difference other than appearance? Why do you suppose they used this finish?

Take the K4 electric version. It has the same finish on it's drive rods, so I am guessing the live steam version will be no different. Frankly, I am not a big fan of the darkened finish. It is a bit un-prototypical as well. I don't know if they were going for the weathered look, or if there is a difference in price of metals. If you own an AML engine which has this, what is your take on it. Does it bother you at all or have you tried to re-finish it at all? Again, I am not sure if there even is a difference in steel used or if it is purely a process the steel is going through to give it that look.


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## Tom Bowdler (Jan 3, 2008)

Holy crap you're picky! 
The 0-6-0 we reviewed for SitG a while back looks just fine to my eye so when you get your K4 do what you want with it to make you happy. 
I'm sure you can remove the blackened finish and polish to a fare thee well if that's what you like. 
In the case of Roundhouse basic locos the valve actuating rod gets blackened by many owners to make it less obtrusive. That's the beauty of lower priced locos, no need to worry about making mods to please. 
AML has a low price going in allowing owners to make changes to suit themselves. I have done so and you can too. 
When are the K4's due stateside? I'll be interested to hear what others think about them when there are concrete examples to examine vs speculation. 
Tom


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Relax Tom, take a breath and just relax. 


Now as for speculation. I was told by Cliff that the LS K4s would be just like the electric versions. I am not speculating but going off the word of Cliff at Accucraft who I would gather would know more than you or me combined about the LS K4. My question was more a matter of why do they do that? Price or other reasons? 

BTW, yes, I am picky and when I am paying upwards of 2 grand for a steam engine I really don't need, I can be as picky as I darn well want to be. Especially when if I am going to pay and then have to swap out the drive rods or somehow take off the blackened finish, why not just pay for a different engine with the extra money involved in making it the way I want. So, thanks, you've helped me out with something that had been bothering me very much.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah, 

Plated steel is cheaper than stainless, period. The AMl engines have a plating, not blackening, so I would assume a scotch-brite pad will not be enough to get the natural finish you desire, perhaps media blasting will be better. 

The AML engines are a more cost-effective lineup compared to their counterparts, hence why they have different, less expensive materials used and simplified valve gear, etc. This is not to say that the engines are not great performers for the value (based on the 0-6-0 and 0-4-0) and can hold their own against more advanced models, but there will be compromises to keep the value in the target bracket. 

You can't expect a Porsche 911 for VW beetle pricing, nor is it safe to compare the two, since the differences far outweigh the similarities.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess you didn't see these pictures before  


















Yes, thats the live steam version (see the drain cocks under the cylinders)


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

No Andrew, I had not seen those pictures. When and where were those taken? 
Ryan, I get the whole "you get what you pay for and you can't expect more for less" state of mind. I just can't see the drivers costing THAT much more to produce then the plated steel. In the end, it is definitely a nit-picky thing, but something that isn't going to make the loco it is on a piece of crap. 


Well, thanks.


The website for the K4 does say it will have Stainless Steel Drive-rods though, it doesn't make much mention of plated steel. BTW, with drive rods moving that fast, how long would plated steel last? I know it's integrity is far less than stainless steel. Unless what they mean by that is that the plating will be of stainless steel. Either way, I guess the integrity of the drive rods would be ok. Never heard of someones drive rods breaking on their live steamer.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

From this thread, posted back on Nov 10th 2010
http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx

As for any locomotive (regardless of even have not taken delivery of it lol), you will have to fix it someday (the better you take care of it, the longer it will last though) 
Also, no one knows the answer of your questions yet, because no one has run the locomotive (maybe Cliff at Accucraft has? No videos of it running yet). Or the guys who physically built it in China. You will prob have to wait on some of these questions regardless.

As for how well it will run, look at the other AML products, There is a high percentage that the K4 will run as well or better that the 0-6-0/0-4-0 because of the learning curve.

(BTW: the prototype doesn't always have all the features of the final product. A call to Cliff at Accucraft might get you some answers. He is the guy in the background with the white shirt in the second picture (sitting down))


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

That be's a fine-lookin' locomotive there. I had the electric version running on my litttle track last year as a camera-hauling pacer, and very nice it was, too. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 04 Apr 2011 10:57 AM 
The website for the K4 does say it will have Stainless Steel Drive-rods though, it doesn't make much mention of plated steel. BTW, with drive rods moving that fast, how long would plated steel last? I know it's integrity is far less than stainless steel. Unless what they mean by that is that the plating will be of stainless steel. Either way, I guess the integrity of the drive rods would be ok. Never heard of someones drive rods breaking on their live steamer.
A couple of things here, Jeremiah - electro-deposting a layer of stainless steel is certainly not an effective exercise, in fact, it's one I've never heard of but perhaps you have experience of it in the USA. As for how long ordinary steel rods last, perhaps you can gauge their longevity by considering that many Gauge 1 models built before WW2 are still happily chuffing around with most of their original bits, and our Romulus, a 1/3rd scale well-tank loco, has clocked up well over a thousand real miles on its original side rods...

AccuCraft also use bronze bushes on their drive rod bearings, especially on their bigger locos where they can be plainly seen, so I opine that you'll be a pretty old man before you wear out those bearings.

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Andrew thanks. 
Believe it or not, I have talked with Cliff a while back. My original question was more about why they were blackened. Had no idea they were plated steel as opposed to solid steel. Now that Ryan has pointed out that they (other AML engines) were plated, it makes sense as to why from a cost perspective. Wasn't really meaning to discuss how the K4 would run here in this thread though. 

Tac, no denying that any K4, whether it be an Aster or Accucraft, is one fine looking locomotive. As to the date of the photo, I guess that is the same prototype model as on their AML website write up on the LS K4. Just thought it was a more recent photo that I had overlooked.

My metallurgist knowledge is a bit lacking Tac, so you guys are enlightening me. Most here will be glad to know that I have the book "a passion for steam" by Marc Horowitz coming in the mail, so I hope to have a much better understanding on some things after I look through that. Just looking through an Aster catalog/manual I have gave me a good understanding on how "cross porting" on valves work.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 04 Apr 2011 10:57 AM 
No Andrew, I had not seen those pictures. When and where were those taken? 
Ryan, I get the whole "you get what you pay for and you can't expect more for less" state of mind. I just can't see the drivers costing THAT much more to produce then the plated steel. In the end, it is definitely a nit-picky thing, but something that isn't going to make the loco it is on a piece of crap. 


Well, thanks.


The website for the K4 does say it will have Stainless Steel Drive-rods though, it doesn't make much mention of plated steel. BTW, with drive rods moving that fast, how long would plated steel last? I know it's integrity is far less than stainless steel. Unless what they mean by that is that the plating will be of stainless steel. Either way, I guess the integrity of the drive rods would be ok. Never heard of someones drive rods breaking on their live steamer.

Jeremiah
I dont know about the stainless steel drive rods breaking but I can assure you that the stainless steel spindle rods that drive the pistons in the d-valve will bend at a 90 degree angle. Happened to me with the BIG BOy. Have not figured out why but it came to a screeching halt last year at Zube Oark and I had the time of my life getting Stainless steel rods to fit and put threads on it. Got it done and timed with the help of Jeff Runge.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Point of clarification: 
The drive rods will be solid! Drawin side rods from electroplating would never make a 1/4 revolution. 

The "blackening" is an anodized or electro-plated finish (usually copper with nickel or other conductor on top), common on electric models with steel or die cast drive wheels to provide good electrical contact and prevent surface tarnish. Stainless cannot be "blackened"..unless it is of poor quality with many impurities, which makes it a low grade. The Accucraft stainless is often a good machining grade (probably 303 or 304).


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Ryan and Gibs. 

BTW, 
How can you tell the percentage of butane/propane if it isn't on the can? I have a can of Coleman 3250-702T I read somewhere here that you would not want a mix of butane/propane with more than 30% being propane. Got this can at my local wal-mart. 

I found an answer. My can had no indication as to the mix, but I checked online and found another can which did have the same 3250-702T and it was 70%butane and 30%propane, so mystery solved.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah, most mixes are 70/30, but Primus 2202 has a seasonal mix. In the winter, they produce a 70/30 mix and in the summer, they produce an 80/20 mix. I usually buy a case mid summer and have 80/20 all year. Buying by the case from a camping supply store usually results in a discount and they pay the hazmat shipping.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Carl, I will have to look into that.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 04 Apr 2011 12:38 PM 
Point of clarification: 
The drive rods will be solid! Drawin side rods from electroplating would never make a 1/4 revolution. 

The "blackening" is an anodized or electro-plated finish (usually copper with nickel or other conductor on top), common on electric models with steel or die cast drive wheels to provide good electrical contact and prevent surface tarnish. Stainless cannot be "blackened"..unless it is of poor quality with many impurities, which makes it a low grade. The Accucraft stainless is often a good machining grade (probably 303 or 304). 




1. Electrochemical Products, Inc.
Stainless Steel:
Stainless Steel Blackening Process Ultra-Blak 407
Black oxide finish for stainless steels. Oxidizing salts used at 4.75 pounds per gallon of water at temperatures of 250° to 260° F. The finishes comply with military specification MIL-DTL-13924D Class 4. The versatile solution may also be used to blacken malleable and cast iron as well as some mild low carbon steels.

2. Heatbath® Corporation:
Products » Black Oxide Finishing 
New technologies and innovative product applications are expanding opportunities for today's black oxide finishers. Heatbath® Corporation formulates, manufactures, markets and services a comprehensive line of proprietary Pentrate® black oxide products to achieve the blackest possible finish with maximum corrosion protection and abrasion resistance. For use on steel, zinc, stainless steel, copper, cast and malleable irons, Heatbath's black oxide formulations are available in both liquid and powder forms. Supplementary products for black oxide finishing powdered metal, assemblies and silver soldered components are also available.


3. Ampere Metal Finishing Ltd.:
Black Oxide, Blackening, Oxidizing, Oxiding, Black Passivating, Gun Bluing . . . these terms all refer to the process of forming a black iron oxide on the surface of ferrous metals. 


The black oxide process is a chemical conversion coating. This means that the black oxide is not deposited on the surface of the substrate like nickel or zinc electroplating. Instead, the black oxide coating is produced by a chemical reaction between the iron on the surface of the ferrous metal and the oxidizing salts present in the black oxide solution. These oxidizing salts include penetrates, catalysts, activators and proprietary additives which all take part in the chemical reaction. The result of this chemical reaction is the formation of black iron oxide, magnetite (Fe3O4), on the surface of the metal being coated. Black oxide has a range of unique properties and benefits that can be applied to a variety of industries. 


Black Oxide on Stainless Steel * RoHS Compliant * :
Black oxide can also be applied to stainless steel alloys. Blackening of stainless steel is more difficult than blackening steel alloys. It requires a separate and specialized process, which is not offered by all black oxide finishers. When processed correctly, black oxide on stainless steel produces a deep black finish that doesn't wipe off and is visually appealing. 


Ampere Metal Finishing's Stainless Steel Line consists of 45" x 30" x 30" deep tanks and a lifting capacity of one ton. We have many years of experience applying black oxide on stainless steel and our process produces a quality black oxide product.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris
New processing offered, learn something new each day.... but I doubt that Accucraft would submit parts to the process given the cost, time factor and same area (inner portion of the rod vs entire rod).Interesting to read the various application and their purposes.


In a practical application to our toy trains: 1) the rods are not stainless steel and 2) if they were the process of blacken stainless steel it would not be through electroplating process as I understand the procedure you are referencing." Blackening of stainless steel is more difficult than blackening steel alloys."


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Heard back from those in charge and the AML K4 will have ZINC ALLOY DIE-CAST WITH ELECTROPLATING. The website info has Stainless Steel listed for drive rods, but they are going to go back and change that description. 

With that said, what can you tell me about the Zinc alloy die-cast? Does that mean the core is steel with the zinc alloy die-cast electroplated over it?


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## jmp (Oct 4, 2008)

"Does that mean the core is steel with the zinc alloy die-cast electroplated over it?" 

I would assume from the wording that the rods themselves are of solid zinc alloy with a decorative plating such as nickel (just for example) or some other suitable material. 

Mike


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 14 Apr 2011 01:04 PM 
Heard back from those in charge and the AML K4 will have ZINC ALLOY DIE-CAST WITH ELECTROPLATING. The website info has Stainless Steel listed for drive rods, but they are going to go back and change that description. 

With that said, what can you tell me about the Zinc alloy die-cast? Does that mean the core is steel with the zinc alloy die-cast electroplated over it? Jeremiah - die-casting is NOT a plating process, It is the metallic version of casting plastic, but under much more immense pressure. Most metal toy cars are pressure die-cast [PDC] from a zinc alloy of some kind - you call it Zamak, over here it is called Mazak [tomaHto/tomaYto].

Pressure die-cast materail CAN be electroplated - which is why you can have 'chrome' fenders and parts on auto models and so on. 

I have to say, tho', that I'm not surprised to learn that the drive rods of a live-steam engine are in fact, PDC, those on my Maerklin S3/6 are, too.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

It seems as if every commercially available scale model steamer has side rods that may be either too bright or too dull, if you apply only one color rule. Some real railroads let their locos' rods go black from soot and grime, (like the C&NW pacifics and CB&Q mikes), some were beautiful burnished steel (like streamlined Hudsons or N&W Northerns), and some were even repainted, like some D&RGW Mikes and some British shunters.


Cheers


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I guess what would concern me about the zinc alloy die cast drive rods is the wear. Then, replacements would also be a concern as I understand somethings are hard to get with Accucraft. The look really isn't so much an issue anymore, but the quality definitely is. I still have the images of diecast in my mind as a kid and diecast was not impervious to breaking, and when it did there really was no way to rejoin the pieces unlike steel which could be brazed or welded. I know you probably would just replace the drive rods of a small scale engine as opposed to welding anyway though.

I also wonder what else was "supposed" to be for the K4, but will end up being different when it comes out. Says steel drivers and stainless steel chassis. Guessing the chassis could very well be the same zinc alloy die cast though. 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Sorry for continuing to beat a dead horse, but as we know, the drive rods on the upcoming K4 are to be Zinc Alloy Die-cast with electroplating. From this, I am gathering that the drive rods on the K4 are the same as those on the Dockside switcher, 0-6-0 switcher and 0-4-0 switcher. However, where the drive rods description has been amended on the K4's ad, the descriptions on all the other AML engines still say Steel drive rods. Now, either I am clearly missing something or AML needs to be clear to all customers on what exactly they are paying for. 

Am I wrong and there is a steel core to the die-cast rods being used on the AML engines? I just can't understand why on a Ruby engine they use steel drive rods, but on a much more higher end engine they have used Die-cast metal. Again, this is not a matter of being picky, but if I am spending upwards of 2 grand on an engine, what is the deal with the Zinc alloy die-casting? Quite frankly, that metal is good for decorative and detailed parts, but where stress from moving parts is concerned, it is not what I would think to be the best choice. 
Not trying to bash Accucraft. AFter all, I will be getting an accucraft made engine either way I go. Just trying to understand this decision bit better since even a Ruby has steel driver rods, therefore it isn't just a matter of comparing a honda to a mercedes.

Also, from my understanding, it can be more costly to use the die-casting method due to the waste material produced by the process of using zinc alloy. This is only what I have been told by someone who works with metals though. 

I am well aware that Accucraft has been in the buisness of making engines for quite some time and that they know what they are doing. I am also well aware from reading myriads of postings that Accucraft is going to stand behind their product should a part fail. So, I get that they are more than likely testing these engines at the factory and would not use the zinc-die casting parts if they were not going to hold up over time. However, I would like to know that when I read a description on accucraft's page that I am indeed getting an item that is as described. 
At the end of the day, I just want to get an engine that is going to be sturdy. I am not 100% committed to the K4 at this time and so I only use the K4 as an example here.


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Who at Accucraft said they were going to be diecast? 

Steve


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The Ruby rods are stamped. I'm not sure if they're stainless steel or nickel-plated steel, but they are very primitive compared to the rods on the higher-end models, which are either laser-cut or water-jet cut and machined stainless steel. Presumably the diecast zinc alloy rods on the K4 will allow a much higher degree of realism than the Ruby rods, at a lower cost than the machined stainless steel rods of the $4k+ models. 

I'm not sure what they use on the other AML live steamers, but I have yet to hear of a rod failure on any of them. Seems to me that if the diecast zinc alloy rods prove to be problematic for whatever reason, it won't be long before stainless steel replacements are offered, either from Accucraft or from aftermarket suppliers.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. Thanks Richard. Steve, I was told this by Cliff who found out through contacting the factory in china.


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