# electric diagram or my c-16



## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

hello

I am looking for an electric diagram or my c-16 (new type) because i have some trouble installing a lgb 55023 (and a qsi quantum) 
Can anybody help me out?

Peer


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, so we see that you angered Lewis and he closed your thread because you had the audacity to want to modify your Aristo loco! 

*http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulleti...amp;page=2* 


Shame on you! (ha ha ha, all in fun!)









OK, one thing you want to do in the future is be a little more complete in your question. Just a helpful suggestion. You only asked about the circuit diagram, and it takes years if/when Aristo publishes these.

So, I understand that you have a new C16, that has the Aristo/QSI socket in the tender, and you want to add more lighting functions and a different smoke unit. 

You can buy a DCC lighting board for pretty cheap, like $15, that has 4 function outputs, that should take care of that function. Look at the TCS (Train Control Systems) FL4 .... I think it will do the flickering firebox for you. 

Now, on the smoke unit... sounds like you want "puffing" smoke. 

You have 2 ways to go here, either "autochuff" (both in the QSI and the Massoth), or you can put a reed switch on the loco, and magnets on one driver and wire this to both the Massoth and the QSI chuff inputs and get this perfectly timed to the motion and speed of the pistons. More work, but more exact. 

Am I right so far? 

Regards, Greg


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

Hi greg 

thaks for your reaction, I put my answers in Bold.

OK, one thing you want to do in the future is be a little more complete in your question. Just a helpful suggestion. You only asked about the circuit diagram, and it takes years if/when Aristo publishes these. *I will in the future ask for permission to Aristo Craft to open a product and to ask questions., sorry Lewis what was I thinking.







*

So, I understand that you have a new C16, that has the Aristo/QSI socket in the tender, and you want to add more lighting functions and a different smoke unit. *Yep*

You can buy a DCC lighting board for pretty cheap, like $15, that has 4 function outputs, that should take care of that function. Look at the TCS (Train Control Systems) FL4 .... I think it will do the flickering firebox for you. *Thanks for the tip
*
Now, on the smoke unit... sounds like you want "puffing" smoke. *Yep*

You have 2 ways to go here, either "autochuff" (both in the QSI and the Massoth), or you can put a reed switch on the loco, and magnets on one driver and wire this to both the Massoth and the QSI chuff inputs and get this perfectly timed to the motion and speed of the pistons. More work, but more exact *I mounted a reed contact but although the smokeunit smoked like h*ll the autochuff won't work, the reed contact works ok with the sound module.* 
*The reason why I asked for the electric diagram is that I would like to understand how it's working so I can adjust it when needed. I noticed as example that the connections from tender and loco don't match, which one is right I don't know.* 

*peer*


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Peer, 

I would recommend you nuke everything and start over, using a Massoth XLS sound decoder, their axle/chuff sensor kit, their new smokebox flicker unit, and the pulsed smoke maker. It might be a little more work but at the end of the day you'll end up something that actually works together with load sensitive and timed smoke and sound. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Peer: 

Did you hook both the QSI chuff "input" and the Massoth chuff "input" together? You might have to isolate each with a diode so they do not interact. 

There's also several settings on the Massoth, maybe it's not configured to do the "triggered" "chuff". 

On the wiring, you have to figure it out for yourself, with a meter, Aristo is famous for not only not providing diagrams, but wiring the same loco differently in different production batches. 

One thing you have not mentioned, just to make sure, are you running DCC? 

This changes a bit if you are running analog DC. 

Regards, Greg


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

thanks keith and greg 

keith: nuking and start over sounds not that bad, i think about it. 
greg: yep I think I hooked them together, wich diode and how should I connect them? 
About the wiring: I pull out the meter out of my toolbox. 
yes i am riding DCC 

regards 

peer


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well glade to see you all got hooked up. So now you will be able to get the loco up and running soon. Yep AC is famous for not upgrading their diagrams for locos. We have been waiting 5 years for the diagram and parts list for the Mike LS. We fly by night with AC products most of the time. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually the QSI has load sensitive sound and using the massoth components will give you the pulsed smoke... there's no conflict with them working together, and the QSI does just plug in, as opposed to the Massoth (unless Massoth has made a new product) 

Keith, is there a separate "output" from the Massoth decoder to run the smoke unit, or is it just connected to a typical "chuff switch"? 

The flicker unit on off would require another lighting decoder though (it's not DCC on it's own is it?).... so if you look at "complexity" it might be a wash between hardwiring the Massoth (but no extra lighting decoder) and the plug and play QSI (but adding a lighting decoder). 

Flip a coin! 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

If nuking and starting over I recommend the ZIMO TrueSound DCC product. With ZIMO TrueSound DCC you even have the option to use virtual chuff which avoids reeds altogether. I have not been able to determine the difference between real chuff sensors or the virtual one. (But of course you could say that my eyesight of old age







).

This saves time, money and aggravation.









And pulsed smoke that is a standard ZIMO feature as well.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I'm not sure I understand your comment about the QSI "does just plug in, as opposed to the Massoth". I believe Massoth ships an Aristo interface cable with their decoders. You are right in that you could use the QSI and Massoth smoke unit/pulse generator together but you would not get the decoder cutting off the smoke unit when it coasts or you back off on the throttle, for example. It would simply chuff whenever it was triggered by the pulse generator. 
The Massoth decoders have a susi interface to run the smoke unit, and a socket to receive the input pulse from the smoke maker. It's simpler when you look at the manual for the smoke maker, but basically the smoke unit just "passes on" the chuff signal to the decoder, which via the susi interface decides whether or not to cut it off etc. At least that's the way I understand it. Of course you don't need to have that level of complexity, you can just set the decoder for chuff simulation and then the smoke unit is connected slightly differently to the smoke unit. 
So there are quite a few options using the smoke maker--they've designed it to work in the simplest or most complex setup. I should mention that the smoke maker gets it's power from the decoder, so the output pins you use have to be able to provide adequate current (I think 600mA). The Massoth decoders can handle that. 
As for the smokebox flickering unit, you don't need a separate decoder--it just needs to get power via a function output from the decoder. I'm pretty sure the circuit board that the LED's are mounted to does the 'flickering' part. That is the way the LGB smoke box units work too, because I'm running my Heidi's smokebox flicker directly from the Massoth XLS output. 
If you want to go with a Zimo decoder, you might just want to check that it has a Susi interface if you want the coordinated sound/smoke, but as Axel says it can also simulate the pulse if needed. I used to do that but once it became something I paid attention to I had to have it exactly right with each stroke and then changed to the axle pulsed generator output! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh... a cable is fine. So the Massoth modulates the smoke unit, very nice. 

I don't believe the Zimo's have SUSI, only Lenz as I recall. I would like to see the Zimo manual on this. 

Isn't the Massoth decoder made by ESU? 

I read the manual on the 3 amp unit, very nice, it can even pulse a smoke generator even if you don't have magnets... will have to look into these!

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg as far as I know all the Massoth decoders are designed and built in-house. I've heard of them building decoders for others, but I've never heard of it the other way around. In fact on the last LGB club DVD they showed the Massoth family assembling/soldering units--they were even machining their own heat sinks. Since they have designed all of the sound decoders to use the same CV's, I'm pretty sure they can all do pulse simulation, so it doesn't matter which one you have only the current handling varies between the LS and XLS. The new sound only decoder should be out any day which will be a very handy add-on to those who already have a motor decoder but want to add the nice integration of the sound/pulse smoke maker etc. 
As for the Zimo, I'll have to read the manual too regarding the bus type--maybe they have a susi interface now? The Dietz decoders do for sure as he is the one who invented it. I am pretty sure the Zimos are able to accept a magnet wheel input but I'm not sure if it has to be a reed switch type or hall effect sensor. The Massoth decoders (and I think also Zimo) have two separate pulse inputs available in case you are running a Mallet and want independent chuffs. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did some more reading, looks like the SUSI interface, and PWM output for a smoke unit is supported in a similar manner on the Zimo. 

Yeah, if you look at features, the Germans have gone bonkers! I put a new Zimo 642 in my Accucraft Casey Jr. loco yesterday, and tonight I tuned up the chuff speed, there's the normal autochuff "tuning", but there is also a low speed correction and a high speed modification to keep the chuffs from running together... nice. 

Took out a Tsunami. The Tsunami may be great for HO, but it cannot handle G scale voltages, and even after cutting it back to about 18 volts, it constantly overheated, and it's about twice the size of my new Zimo. 

Too bad that some of this stuff is so expensive. The new Zimo is a reasonable price when used in a G scale small loco, but compared to other HO decoders it's more costly. The Massoth XL looks nice, but it's $300 !! 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

$300 for the XL can't be right, at least not for the street price. Not even the larger XLS sound decoder is near that price...where were you looking? I think the Zimo sound decoders are a little less expensive than the Massoth, but not by too much. 
You're right on the feature front though--Zimo (actually Austrian I think) has more features than Carter has liver pills, and some of the others aren't far behind. Many of them are very useful though, such as the ability to control servos for uncouplers/pantographs, live steamers etc. We're lucky in that the features keep getting better, and the prices, as with most electronics, don't increase much and usually go down over time. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd be happy to be pointed to a site that sold Massoth at a discount... I got that price from the US price list on the Massoth site. This was an emotion XL, the one with sound. 


Page 3: *http://www.massoth.com/d...trong>**

I was not aware that anyone could sell Massoth in the US at a discount, in fact I thought it was only available from the people in Georgia.

Regards, Greg*


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

First off all SUSI interface is on all Large Scale decoders with ZIMO. One of the main initial applications was to control a seperate Soundboard (an almost non existing application today since the arrival of integrated DCC/Sound).

Second ZIMO decoders have build in programing that doesn't require a SUSI interface. There are two different Smoke "programs" available:
Load dependant for Diesel Engines
Load and chuff synchronized for Steam Engines

This programming controls fan speed and heating element power for a vary realistic approach for the two different engine types.

But of course Greg has most of that already pointed out.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya I just got a new price list fro Massoth and as Greg Mentioned this stuff is a bit costly $300 for the eMotion XLS decoder with sound. Looks like the smoke units are also high. Later RJD


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, what threw me was your statement that the XL was $300. They are listed for $97, while the XLS (note S at the end means with sound) are $289, which I think is the one you were really looking for. If you don't need the power handling of the XLS, you can get the LS for $211 which is suitable for most single engine locos. 
Check out the prices at the website below, they are discounted from the list price: 
http://www.shourtline.swl4.com/ 

I would also bear in mind that you get what you pay for. Look at all the features that the Zimo & Massoth decoders have built in and compare that with the cheaper QSI that needs auxiliary boards etc., doesn't have the self-protection features etc. You pay for the good engineering. 

Keith


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep I agree you get what you pay for but in my case I do not need all that fancy stuff to do the easy things I do. Sound and head lights and drop in ease in most cases.Doesn't get any better than this. later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, dropped a letter, was comparing 3 amp Massoth sound and motor decoder to 3 amp QSI sound and motor decoder. 

The Massoth is double the price the QSI and the QSI has a better sound library. I'm thinking of doing a system with either a Massoth or Zimo and a MTH or USAT or TAS smoke unit. 

But, with about 40 locos to do, the difference in price of $150 per loco is more than I want to pay. 

I waited a long time to start my conversion from DC to DCC because of the high prices of DCC decoders AND separate sound cards. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like my seinareo Waited to long to up grade to DCC but good thing QSI came along with the sound and decotor board. Later RJD


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

evening greg

You mentioned to use a TCS FL4 function decoder in your response above, i bought a pair a few weeks ago and installed one in my c-16. 
I connected the decoder to the pick-ups in the locomotive. 
The problem is that the decoder doesn't work, i can't read it out. 
Do you have any idea what the problem is? the voltage on the track is 22 Volt.

peer


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I replied to your private email, but will reply here too. 

First, I am confused, you cannot read back from the decoder when "programming on the main", when your 22 volts is present. 

What response do you get on the programming track? Remember that if you have 2 decoders in the loco, you must disable (disconnect) one of them if you are using the programming track. 

Let me know what you are doing in this area (many people put a spst switch in series with each decoder and one track pickup wire to isolate them, there is a more sophisticated way to do this with decoder lock) 

Regards, Greg


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

sorry greg 

I mentioned the 22volt because i put the loco on the maintrack and i am not certain what the max voltage is for the decoder, I was't trying to program it. 
The decoder is installed stand alone, the qsi decoder is fitted in the tender, the fl4 in the locomotive and using te pickups from it. 
When i tried to programm it, the locomotive was placed on the programming track without the tender.
I can't read out the fl4 decoder, the massoth station say's that it doesn't get a signal back from the decoder. 

peer


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I suspect that there is some other "load" across the rails in your loco. Could there be a cab light or smoke unit? 

If not, I would disconnect the FL4 and try it alone on the programming track. 

No matter what the max operating voltage of the FL4 is, it should respond to the programming track. 

They have a no questions asked warranty, so if it is defective, you can get a new one. 

Try on the programming track first, something is funny here. 

Regards, Greg


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

ok greg 

i try it tomorrow 

thanks 

peer


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## peer888sp4 (Jan 6, 2009)

evening greg, marry x-mas 

a new problem has turned up, both light decoders worked for a while but both burned out after half a minut,

I contacted TCS and digitrax and got the folowing answer.

TF4 is not really designed to handle G scale voltages. Anything over 18 volts is out of its comfort zone. 

Digitrax
Tech Support
[email protected]
2443 Transmitter Rd
Panama City, FL 32404
850-872-9890 

i can't think of a solution to bring down the voltage for the FL4, can you?

peer


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