# California has banned the sale of Alcohol



## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Went to pick up a gallon of Klean Strip Denatured Alcohol at Lowes, no dice. Went over to Home Depot and same deal. Gal behind the counter said that this recently has become banned here in California and we will no longer be able to obtain it over the counter.

Other than bootlegging this stuff from out of state, does anyone have a recommendation for a source where this can be purchased for roughly the same price point ( $15-$20 / gallon )? Are there CA legal substitutes which can be used in Asters?

Would hate to start converting my Duchess, Berkshire, 9F, and Pannier to butane!


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Does the California ban include methylated spirit? I know it's maybe not the best fuel for our locomotives but I believe it can be made useable by passing through a molecular sieve material (activated charcoal?) to remove water and other impurities.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

There is little or no information from official government sources on this. Here is a writeup from a guy in Oregon who was investigating this. It explains how this is simply disappearing from stores and it is impossible to access direct information from the state. 

http://www.berniedawg.com/da-in-ca-denatured-alcohol-in-california/


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This thread prompted me to do a little Web search on the subject.

I have not found a solution to the challenge of finding methanol in California though it does appear that Bill Allen is ahead of the State in switching to butane - at least for the time being.

However; in reading further it appears as though, Coleman fuel (naptha) is next to be banned in liberal-leaning venues . . . and after that?

The gas stove.

If well-meaning but wrong-headed people have their way, we may soon have to go all-electric in our homes, like it or not.

The day may come when matches and open flames of any kind are banned.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...te-change-debate-your-gas-stove-idUSKCN1VU18Q

https://www.kqed.org/science/194565...-to-save-the-planet-berkeley-bans-natural-gas


So far, it appears as though electric trains are safe.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Joel,
Why don't you just cut to the chase and call Jasco. They will be able to tell you why their products were pulled fro CA stores.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

For what it's worth, I was able to place a gallon of Klean Strip into my cart and checkout to the point of hitting "Place Your Order" and my shipping address is in California. It only had a Proposition 65 warning link but it appeared that it would allow me to purchase and ship. Obviously says nothing of the future.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Joel779 said:


> Went to pick up a gallon of Klean Strip Denatured Alcohol at Lowes, no dice. Went over to Home Depot and same deal. Gal behind the counter said that this recently has become banned here in California and we will no longer be able to obtain it over the counter.
> 
> Other than bootlegging this stuff from out of state, does anyone have a recommendation for a source where this can be purchased for roughly the same price point ( $15-$20 / gallon )? Are there CA legal substitutes which can be used in Asters?
> 
> Would hate to start converting my Duchess, Berkshire, 9F, and Pannier to butane!


Odd - I just ordered 5 pints through Amazon - no issue. We will see if it shows up. 

In the meantime, it is probably worth experimenting with other fuels. I will start with this that sounds promising....

Regal Flame Ultra Pure Ventless Bio Ethanol Fireplace Fuel - 6 Quarts

But no way I am going to convert my Aster's to butane......


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I went down to my local hardware store in Los Altos and found they had plenty in stock. The owner knew nothing about a ban.......


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## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

I have friends who bootleg into utah (100% Tax), might have to bring some back across the border.


Steve


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting mixed results with this subject. I am in San Jose, checked with Lowes and two Home Depot stores. Home Depot counter at Great Mall indicated she was no longer able to source gallon cans of the stuff. Checked with Ace Hardware in Redwood City and the gal there said that orders were being rejected for gallon cans. Went across the street to REI and was able to get a quart can.

Stay tuned, I can only imagine this is going to go down hill. Just be prepared to order this online. Stock at your local hardware store can change in a matter of days if some supplier algorithm gets modified. 

Am definitely interested in others experience with this.

Joel


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## Rufus (Jun 26, 2018)

BioEthanol for centerpiece fireplaces etc. Amazon has lots on site. I have used it in locos and it works fine. I ordered my last box last year so the refs may have changed.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

zephyra said:


> Odd - I just ordered 5 pints through Amazon - no issue. We will see if it shows up.
> 
> In the meantime, it is probably worth experimenting with other fuels. I will start with this that sounds promising....
> 
> ...


5 pints showed up this morning from Amazon and my local Truevalue store had plenty on the shelves when I went in earlier today for something else. Seems like we may be panicking too early - I think I now have enough in my garage for a couple of years of steaming.

Reminds me of my steam oil panic several years ago and I am still working my way through what I bought then.

Robert


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Def not trying to raise panic, however I did notice that Lowes shows DA (Denatured Alcohol) and no longer available on their website, this was for KleenStrip gallon cans. I contacted Home Depot and the gentleman I asked about this could not find it an any location. At the same time, Once I started with paint stores, I found they did indeed have it in stock. This may have been an issue with big box stores. Time will tell.

On a side note, I did find a blog posting where various types of DA was tested against each other, I think it was Heet, SLX DA, and KleenStrip Green DA. It was noted that the Green DA burned with a more pronounced soot. This could be a problem with live steamers since we have no way to easily clean our flues. I will experiement with this when I get a chance.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Should have seen it coming a over a century ago.

As we all know, "Engines" never could hold their "fire water" and you never know what they may do.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Avoid the big box stores for it maybe.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Here in the States, one can generally obtain MSDS documents - manufacturer's safety data sheets - for any hazardous chemicals. 

Concerning denatured alcohol (essentially ethanol deliberately adulterated (poisoned) with dangerous methanol, I remember that we had this discussion in detail a couple of years ago.

"Meths" or methylated spirits as sold in the UK is even more toxic than the denatured alcohol we have here in the States because it has colorants and other crap in it. Our stuff is mostly clear - a combination or relatively safe ethanol with very dangerous methanol.

Pure Ethanol is sufficiently clean-burning that one does not have to be overly concerned about breathing in the products of combustion - mainly water and CO2 and this is why it is OK for indoor fireplaces, cooking stoves and lamps.

It's the liquor industry that does not want to see cheap ethyl alcohol made readily available to the general public, but this stuff really works well and it is almost pure ethanol:

Lumina Products Smartfuel

From the MSDS, we can see that it is >90% Ethanol with the remainder being 4.8% to 9.0% isopropyl alcohol.


I would not recommend using it for Limoncello 


MSDS for Lumina Smartfuel

As long as biofuel fireplaces remain legal in California, the fuel should remain available? 

Requires additional research, I presume.

Methanol?



> *Methanol* is highly flammable and toxic. Direct ingestion of more than 10mL can cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve, poisoning of the central nervous system, coma and possibly death. These hazards are also true if *methanol* vapors are inhaled.


Kleenstrip Denatured Alcohol is 30% to 50% Ethanol and 40% to 60% methanol, so dangerous stuff to be sure.


Ingesting 2 ounces of Methanol is generally fatal to an adult. That would be about 4 ounces of Kleenstrip Denatured Alcohol.


MSDS for Kleenstrip Denatured Alcohol


Edited to fix typos.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

I would assume that since methanol/denatured alcohol has been banned in California that that is the end of World of Outlaws, USAC etc Sprint Car as well as different Midget series racing is dead..........I don't think so!!! I suggest you guys quit panicking and think clearly and outside the box (stores). Smaller independant paint stores and certainly specialist speed shops will have it but you might have to buy a few gallons from the latter and split it with your fellow steamers. Where there's a will, there's ALWAYS a way.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

GaugeOneLines said:


> I would assume that since methanol/denatured alcohol has been banned in California that that is the end of World of Outlaws, USAC etc Sprint Car as well as different Midget series racing is dead..........I don't think so!!! I suggest you guys quit panicking and think clearly and outside the box (stores). Smaller independant paint stores and certainly specialist speed shops will have it but you might have to buy a few gallons from the latter and split it with your fellow steamers. Where there's a will, there's ALWAYS a way.


I was buying Sunoco Racing Methanol, it works great in our locos and the 5 gallon cans was cheaper than buying the 1 gallon tins from home improvement stores. But even these outlets seem to be going away. The nearest retailer is now over 100 miles away!!


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Of course, in worst case scenario, you could start making your own. The independent ingredients are available in California. Remember the real reason for "denatured alcohol" was to elude the alcohol excise taxes. The mixture of the major components will create the foul smelling, bad tasting and more likely poisonous combination. Otherwise, I see some day trips into Nevada, Oregon, Arizona or south of the border.


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## bobrstrong (Mar 25, 2013)

YEP, the California legislators are out to do away with anything that burns. Berkeley ( better known as Berserkly ) has now banned all natural or LP Gas appliances and heaters. Too the Liking of Gov. Newsom of course.
We Model scrapped Iron Belching Horses, so I imagine they'll want to Ban us soon too.> 
Am I too critical or just the product of many generation of true born Californian since 1836.
Anyway I'll just keep steaming until they come and take me away.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Just another reason to never move there. I have been told the ethanol for the indoor fire places reduces the danger of vapor fires in the cab of tank type locomotives or those with the fuel tank as part of the burner assembly such as the older Bassett Lowke models. The vaporization temp is a bit higher and lesses this danger. It also burns cleaner compared to the stuff from the hardware store. I got some when I had my O gauge live steamer and still use it in my Mamod stationary and traction engine.


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## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

Traveling to Utah for the holidays, cannot buy washer fluid that will not freeze below 32F, since it is banned in CA. Had to buy a small bottle of booster fluid ($3.99) to bring the temp down where it won't freeze. I will be boot legging washer fluid also.


Steve


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## ddrum31 (Aug 30, 2017)

That is crazy!


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Having worked for a Pennsylvania headquartered company, I have lots of friends on the east coast and some of them send me photos of the snow or thermometers on cold days and tell me how lucky I am to live in California.

I finally got fed up and sent out a list of all the taxes we get to pay and now they all feel sorry for me.
I didn't even mention some of the above.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

If I want year round warmth, Cali would not be my first choice between the BS laws, earth quakes, traffic and high cost of living. Somewhere in Arizona, maybe Scottsdale would be nice. But, we will remain in Indiana with its flip flop of hot humid summers and brutally cold winters due to the wind.


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## ddrum31 (Aug 30, 2017)

I’m born SoCal we left when I was 9. Texas bound and never looked back. I like it for Vacations and visiting family but I would never move back. Indiana is home. But southwest Texas is my heart.


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## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

The new California dream is to move to Texas. 


Steve


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

ddrum, if your into G scale live steam, we have a group with a portable layout based out of Brownsburg that sets up at shows around the state thru out the year. Kokomo is home for me. Cheers Mike


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Amazing how this thread has turned into 10 reasons to hate CA. I differ - I love living here in spite of all its eccentricities and crazy taxes. 

Robert


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## steamermeister (Feb 20, 2013)

Agreed.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

.


zephyra said:


> Amazing how this thread has turned into 10 reasons to hate CA. I differ - I love living here in spite of all its eccentricities and crazy taxes.
> 
> Robert


If you live in California and you love California you know there is no other state or country where you'd rather live. Every place has problems, faults and foibles. No other place but California has so many rewards, pleasures or diversity in every shape, features and revelations daily. Not to mention the extraordinary opportunities here for dreams and drive.

If you don't like California that's perfectly fine. California is not for everyone. It's hard and a lot of work to live in paradise. And yes, just like Robert wrote, I love living here with all the eccentricities and crazy taxes. I was born in California and California is deep in my blood and bones. 

If you don't like California, that's OK. Please stay where you are and enjoy the heck out of it. If you do live here just to complain the solution is quite simple, find somewhere that makes you happy and move there. Nothing gets older faster than complaining. And nothing and no one looks worse by comparison than someone complaining.




p.s. Merry Christmas & a Very Happy New Year


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I echo Chris' statement.


And we are happy to have people hate California, maybe they will quit moving here ha ha!


I sat outside last night, running trains and in short sleeves, it's just awful.


Years ago, when I had to go to Colorado quite often, the people there complained about all the Californians moving there, ruining the place... I told them that we would quit doing it if they would stop all the people moving to California, ruining the place.


It's almost like the battery vs. track power endless argument. My way is better than your way and your way sucks.


Greg from San Diego, just awful weather and climate, you are right California sucks!


;-)


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, living in Southern California is real H-ll. It just happens to be the best H-ll on earth.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with Chris. The only thing that seemed to be a problem, it used to be that when ever I read a label there was almost always a sentence that said, "Known to cause Cancer in California". Not seen so much anymore, maybe California found a cure for Cancer.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Wife and I lived in San Clemente for 3 Years while I was in the Marine Corps. It was like being on a Hunny Moon. Best weather in the world.No Musquito to bite You and the Ocean and all the things to do, We still go back to see good friends and of course Disneyland, Love California .No Humidity. We love Southern Calf. When We were there the palm trees were up to My Forehead, Now they are 40 ft tall


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Remember it's Los Angeles, "The City of Angels."


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