# Live steam Mason Bogie log, continued



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, this was a surprise!! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif If you are interested in the log before this point, click this link archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp  . Thanks Vance and Noel.


Noel if you ever would like some input on building the Bogie feel free to contact me off line. I would be happy to help in any way I can. By the way, this applies to any of the other guys out there who at one time indicated an interest in building a live steam Mason Bogie.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn 
How about some input on how you developed the "skills & tools" necessary to be able to put forth such an excellent scratch build live steam engine. Have enjoyed to process and would enjoy even more being an "understudy" to your talent.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, In my previous life, i.e. before I retired, I worked as a technician at the Sandia National Labs rocket sled track. One of my fellow employees was a journyman machinest and taught me a little about machining. However a lot of what I do was learned by trial and error over a life time of designing and building stuff. As far as machining goes I'm sure that there books that could give you a lot better information about machining than I can. From what I have seen you post here I think you have a very good level of skills yourself. The tools I use are as follows:


Lathe; Harbor Freight mini lathe


Mill; Micro Mark


Cutting tools and fixtures for the lathe and mill; Micromark and the LittleMachineShop.com


Drill press, 6 inch belt sander w/ 8 inch disc, 1 inch vertical belt sander, Dremel tool, band saw, scroll saw, two sizes of torches and various hand tools including numerous files, shears, screwdrivers and wrenches. I'm sure you already have a lot of these things and some of them are not really necessary like the vertical sander and scroll saw, but are just nice to use if you have them. Actually those two were puchased for my wife's craft business.


I'm trying to decide if I should continue this log here or on the Builder's Log site which I haven't been able to decipher. This new format has got me very frustrated. I am not very computer savy and only do this as a way to comunicate and get information. Now I have to learn the process all over again. I guess I'm just a grouchy Old Fart but often "new and improved" just means that I don't like it as well as the old. End of gripe.


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## Shayoneoneshay (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Winn, 
I have one of the steel chassie kit for the Mason Bogie and will start on this after I finish the live steam shay I am working on. 

I would appreciate all the help I could get, I have been following your topic from the begining. I will contact you off line when I get ready to start. You have done a great job on this model. 

Dave Watters


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Dave, I'll do what ever I can to help. Unfortunately I have not made a lot of drawings of what I have done, but I will be glad to give you copies of what I have. A lot of pieces have been made by trial and error, my scrap pile weighs almost as much as the loco! I have started a blog on the builders log site. It will take me a while to finish importing stuff from the old MLS but I think it will be easier to follow without all the intervening comments.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

My entire live steam MB log minus coments has now been transfered to the builders log section. www.mylargescale.com/Features/BuildersLogs/tabid/66/BlogID/8/Default.aspx I will continue adding to it as I progress. I will watch the comments both here and on the log site and will post notices of updates to the log on this site.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Between trips and other activities I haven't been getting much done on the Bogie. Here is  my latest project, the Vance Bass cab. I made a few variations based on input from other MLS'ers and my own desires. The roof is removable and has an inner ceiling. A perimiter frame was added to the walls to make them more ridged when the roof is removed. Also added a solid brace between the rear roof supports so that they would be less likely to get snagged and broken. I tried to down load some photos but haven't figured out this new system. For some reason I am locked out of my web space and can't put any pictures there.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Send Shad a message and let him know about your web space problem. He'll fix it.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I have made a fair amount of progress since my last post and I can now access my web space. The primary new parts are the Vance Bass cab, reversing linkage and additional bckhead detal, and Bronson-Tate rear truck.

For the cab I made some extra roof frames, added extra bracing around the top of the walls and the roof overhang supports, and added paneling to the cieling. Here are pictures.

Roof framing, the front and rear cross members were added









Roof with cieling paneling and added bracing









Cab assembled









Back head details and reverse lever. The reverse lever will be actuated by a servo in the fire box below the foot plate. The throttle will be controled by a servo in the cab.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

The Bronson-Tate rear truck. I made the brake hangers out of brass and the brake shoes actually pivot, not for any reason except the they were easier to attach that way.









Entire loco assembled for a fit check. Now THAT is really starting to look like SOMETHING!!!


















Now I'm getting close to the hard part, painting and installing decals, not my favorite part.


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## Rich Schiffman (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn,

Absolutely Superb!!!!

Rich Schiffman
[email protected]


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Absoloutely stunning! The most amazing scratch build! You'll be fine in the painting. Do let me know what style of decoration you'll be looking for..black with #44 on the tender, or colours, Mason decoation and 'Lake City' #8? Chocolate Brown. 

No detail spared and she works from steam..amazing! 

David.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

She's gorgeous Winn!! 







  

You've done a simply amazing job!


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Winn, 


Superb job - congratulations on a very good looking loco

Thanks also or the 'mod', to the Bronson Tate tender truckand your removable cab roof.


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## alcashj94 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Winn, 
that's not just looking like SOMETHING - thats looking like THE BUSSINESS!!!! 


Good to see the parts made for the original electric Masterclass like the wheels, valve gear, cab and bogie actually being used in a live steamer, wonder if anyone will follow the Aristocraft idea and put a live steam boiler in a plastic body? Should not think like that, I'm giving myself ideas here! 

Looking forward to the finished job and some shots of it running. You anywhere near one of the electric builds, it would be interesting to see them side by side one day! 

Be interested in the run time with the Roundhouse boiler once it has all settled down. 

Allan.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentleman, Thank you all for the kind words. I must admit it feels really good to have her to this point but realize that there is still quite a bit of work left to do. 

David, even though the model is basically the #44 I plan to use the chocolate brown as is on the cab already. The first overall side view above shows the color better than the cab pictures which are too light. I have decals from Stan which are similar to the Como but I have named her "Santa Fe" and she will be lettered for my Zia and Columbine RR which represents various Colorado and New Mexico railroads. The boiler wrap will be given the 'Blacken It' treatment, the smoke box will be a dark grey, the stack, backhead and under side a weathered black, and the wheels red. If this sounds too far afield let me know. Thanks for all your help. 

Allan, I don't think a plastic boiler would work very well as the diameter is already so small that, given the thickness of the plastic, the actual boiler would be tiny and the runs very short. As it is, so far I am only getting about 10 minute runs and need to add a Goodall valve or some other way of adding water. I don't know of anyone nearby who is building a Bogie, Wesley Furman has ordered the BBTchassis but has not recieved one. That has discouraged him and I'm not sure he will ever start. 

I'm off for a week of skiing in Colorado so won't be getting much done until the end of the month. A few more details to work on then I need to get some run time to work out some of the kinks and try to get longer runs. Then a complete disassembly for finishing.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm back! Between various trips and other deversions I have managed to get a little done on the Bogie. Some details are completed. 

Here is one of the cylinder oilers. It is mounted on a plate which will be glued to the top of the valve box to cover the mounting screws. Super glue seems to work OK for that, it held together when heated to 250 deg. F in the oven but could be pryed apart without damage. 









The stack completed including the blower valve 









The completed backhead 









I have wrapped all the steam lines with fiberglass tape for insulation. It is a high temperture electrical tape with a heat setting adhesive. After wrapping the lines I baked them in the oven at 250 deg. F for half an hour. I hope this will help conserve steam. 









I mounted the reversing servo in the dummy fire box below the foot plate. The J-bar pivot runs through the frame rail and has an actuating lever inside the fire box. It works very well except for some binding in the left expansion link in the reverse position, which I will have to fix. 









Now I need to get some runs on the track to determine how much travel I need for the throttle so that servo setup can be designed. 

The cow catcher with the rock guards and painted.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I seem to be making one step forward and two backward. I was having trouble getting the burner to stay lit, but seem to have that fixed. However I can't produce enough steam. I can build the pressure to 40 PSI and within 100 feet it is down to less than 20. There are some steam leaks but it appears that the main problem is that the loco is radiating heat almost as fast as it is produced. I my have to do a redesign of the main frame and pilot deck to isolate the boiler and cylinders from the large metal masses which are sucking up lots of heat. A radiant screen on the burner and some heat trapping material in the flue might also help. Ideas anybody?


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## alcashj94 (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, 
I would work on the steam leaks first - bet you are loosing more than you realise. A couple of small whispers can leak as much steam as the cylinders need so you are having to provide twice as much steam for the same work. 
A roundhouse boiler should go for at least 20 - 30 mins on one fill judging by the locos I have seen at my local club. I would not worry too much about the mass of brass at the moment, some models I have seen have plenty of metal around the cylinders along with expossed pipework and still perform OK. People run in the winter as well with much more potential for heat loss than this time of year. 
Start off at the regulator and work through each joint in turn, maybe disconect the next section and blank the end so you can presure test each joint in turn to find the one that is causing the problem. 
Hope you get it sorted - too good a project to fail now! 
Allan.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Allan, you are right. I do need to do an intensive leak search and remedy. I have already noted a couple of fairly obvious ones, The safety valve and valve box covers. I have a stethescope to use and Wesley Furman also suggested using a punk stick or incense stick to detect air blowing the smoke. There a few joints I may solder together instead of using gaskets. If that mostly solves the problem it would definately be easier than redesigning the cylinder mounts and the frame/running board assembly. Right now I'm leaving for a couple of days to do volunteer work at the Durango and Silverton. Maybe Monday I'll get a chance to do some leak chasing.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Winn, 
Absolutely Beautiful! What a great job you have done. I HATED to start the painting process on my Ruby conversion, but now I am glad it's done. For what its worth, I had a leak I could not find when I got the running parts of the engine together. I never found it with steam! I hooked an air line to the goodall valve and ran the pressure up to 45 lbs and used soapy water to find the leak. (45 lbs is 10 lbs over my operating pressure so I removed the pop-off valve for this test and was very careful with the pressure) My leak was between the steam outlet bushing on the boiler and the "manifold" that came with the Ruby. Since I had insulated and wrapped the boiler, the telltale water/steam was inside the wrapper. Using a LOT of soapy water I found "leaks" from the bottom seam of the wrapper. When I took the wrapper off I was able to pinpoint the leak and take care of it. 
Maybe this will help. 
redbeard AKA Larry Newman


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Larry, Thanks for the kudus and the suggestion of using soapy water. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that. I've used it often when checking for gas leaks around the house and even on the loco's gas lines. I have been messing around putting RC on my C16 and Ruby/Forney. I also made a spit valve for the C16 which can direct the exhaust out pipes under the cylinders when cold starting. Thanks again.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm still here!!! It seems that a lot of things keep getting in the way of working on the Bogie. I tore it down to just the cylinders and valves with the steam feed pipe and applied air at 20 psi. There were numerous leaks around the heads and and considerable blow-by on the right cylinder. I doubled up on the head gaskets (oil soaked dollar bill), did some additional honing of the cylinder and made a new piston with a slightly larger ID for the O-ring. I reassembled the power bogie and ran it on air. It seemed like it was running mostly on one cylinder. I disconnected the piston rods and found that the right piston was stopping at the end of the stroke and upon reversing the valve it would not move. The was a lot of blowby. I disassembled the cylinder and found a nick in the O-ring. A new O-ring rendered a very smooth running engine. There are still a few leaks around some of the screws which should be easy to seal with some silicone at final assembly. I am waiting for a 1/8th end mill to do some work on the running boards to cut down on heat transfer. I already did this on the pilot deck where the cylinders attach, but broke my end mill. 
Here is a picture of the thermal break on the left side of the pilot deck 









Next job is to reassemble and try steaming. By the way, I used a modified stethesocope with a thin tube to locate leaks. It worked very well.


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## Rich Schiffman (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn, 

I am glad to see you back on the project. I highly admire the work you do. I look forward to more, so please keep it coming.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been spending a lot of my time on the extension to my RR and battery powering a couple of Geese, but I got the end mill that I needed so here goes. As mentioned earlier I have been chasing steam leaks and have them under control. In the interest of conserving heat I am also attempting to minimize the heat transfer to radiating surfaces. In the previous post I showed one of the slots in the pilot deck. I have now completed both slots in the deck and now have added slots to the running boards. 

Here is the main frame with one slot done.









With both slots completed. 









Now the only path for heat transfer to the running boards is through the frame cross members instead of having the entire length of the running board in contact with the boiler. Now to reassemble everything and see how it works under steam.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I ran the Bogie 4 laps around my 217 foot main loop. The fire lit on the first try and never faltered. At 30 PSI I put her in forward and opened the throttle. By the time the cylinders were cleared the pressure was down to 15 so I turned up the fire a little and waited for the pressure to 
build back. The RC controlled J-bar was working fine, with it in forward and the throttle opened, a little nudge and away she went. After one lap I added 50cc of water and let the pressure build to 30 PSI then made 3 more laps before shutting her down. 

After shut down the flue was just uncovered, it takes 80cc to cover it. Total boiler capacity with 30cc of head space is 210cc which leaves only 130cc usable. After adding the 50cc that brings it to 180cc to make 4 laps or 45cc per lap. Looks like I will need a water pump or stop every lap to add 45cc of water. The modifications I made to the pilot deck and the running boards seem to help cut down on the radiated heat. 

I was quite pleased how well she ran even in reverse and she also seems to respond well to notching back the J-bar. A little more tweaking and some break-in time and I think she will run very nicely. Time to disassemble, paint, add decals and do the final assembly!!! I also need to design the installation of the servo for the throttle. By next Spring I should have a finished locomotive if I don't have too many interruptions.


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## Don Howard (Jan 2, 2008)

Congratulations! 
You've gone beyond where many of us can even dream of going.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

On November 19 Vance Bass and Wesley Furman were here to witness the first running of the Bogie actually pulling an Accucraft coach 5 laps around my 217 foot loop. She fired up well and stayed lit and after discharging copious amounts of condensate ran well. I added 50 cc of water after each lap. The gas tank holds plenty of fuel even though I have to run the burner on a high flame to keep up with the hungry cylinders. Due to the fact that the cylinders are somewhat hard to clear even with the diverter valve which dumps the exhaust out under the cylinders, I decided to install drain cocks in the cylinders. I do not plan to test them before doing the painting and final assembly, if they don't work I will be no worse off than before installing them.

A cylinder with drain cocks installed









Cylinders installed on the pilot deck. The cylinder on the left is open, the one on the right is closed. The plumbing in the center is the exhaust and diverter valve with discharge pipes extending under the cylinders.









Another view


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## Agra (Jan 15, 2008)

Hi Winn, 
looks like the official builder's photos aren't far away! What an amazing engine, I really like it. 
The lagging for the steam pipes is creative, haven't seen anyone else using that fibreglass tape. It looks very much like the lagging on full size engines I've seen. 

Looking forward to seeing the finished loco, 

Thanks, 
André, 
Norway


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

I took some photos and video of Winn's almost-completed engine running, but they all came out lousy. I used my PDA/phone (the first time taking pictures) and the lens is the worst I have ever seen. 

Oh, well. It was a lovely afternoon and Winn's loco is a realy beauty!


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I am finally back! I have been cleaning up a bunch of little details including installing the throttle servo which is mounted under te air tank and will be covered by the coal load. All that will be visable is the rod going to the throttle valve.









I am now working on the painting and decals. Here is a picture of the cab and tender with Stan's fantastic decals applied. They are perfect, even the little stripes on the cow catcher spokes (not shown) are exactly the right size. I can't say enough about how impressed I am with his product.









Before final assembly I plan to add a water injection valve to the back of the boiler which will allow me to add water from a trailing water car. The goal is to have the Bogie completed in time to enter the model contest at the Denver Garden Railroad Convention.


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks great Winn, very nice.

Chuck


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

Woo, yes! Beautiful work, Winn!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Woah! That is one _sweet _locomotive!! I have been impressed with the sheer artistry of your project but the addition of steam just raises the bar that much higher! I can't wait to see it in Denver!!


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## Rich Schiffman (Jan 2, 2008)

Winn,

I have been so very impressed by your craftsmanship. I hope to see further photos and the finished loco. It will be a real treat. 



Thanks for allowing us a view of your work.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Guys, it feels really good to finally see a "light at the end of the tunnel". It would not have happened without the great help and support from the wonderful people like you here on MLS!!! Gotta go work on it some more.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Due to the fact that the boiler is so small and the loco uses lots of steam I decided to add a feedwater system. I added a bushing to the back of the boiler in which I can install a water injector. The plan is to have a trail car with a water tank and a Regner servo pump which I have already purchased.

The first picture shows the bushing and the plumbing back to the rear of the tender. The injector is essentially a real long Goodall valve that reaches up to the front of the boiler. I figured it would be better putting cold water near the front.









The boiler in place with the plumbing connected.









Everything is pretty much painted and decals installed. I'm not totally happy with my paint and decal aplication, but I'll have to live with it because I'm not going to start over!! The power bogie is reassembled and running smoothly on air. The coal load is complete and the wood planking on the running boards and cab/tender floor installed. There are a few little detail parts to deal with and then mostly screwing things back together. I plan to have the official bulder's photos posted in a few days if I don't have to leave town, which is a possibility. My mother-in-law in Texas is not doing well.


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, Winn, looking good! Did the weed burner do the trick?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Vance, Acctually I chickened out and made an expanding bushing and then soldered it with 2% silver solder. If I am lucky it will work. I hope you are feeling better now.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

As of 10 o'clock this evening IT IS FINISHED!!!!! I'll try to get photos posted tomorrow, probably on a new thread so you don't have to wade through all this other stuff to get to them. I'm having a hard time realizing that I have finally completed what was started so many years ago. I had the power bogie running very smoothly on air before installing it on the loco. I don't plan to steam it until after the Denver Convention as I want it to be pristeen for the model contest. Time to get some sleep.


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Winn, 

Best of luck at the Denver Convention: look forward to the photos it lis a good looking model, that you have put a huge amount of work into - Congratulations so far!


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

OK photos are ready to go and will be posted on this forum under Live Steam Mason Bogie, FINISHED!!! Here is one photo of the loco along with all the scrap I produced in the processes. The loco weighs 16 pounds and the scrap is 6 pounds and that doesn't count the chips and filings from the machining and hand work!!!








Thanks to all of you who have followed along and offered many kudos, lots of help and encouragement over the last 2 1/2 years of construction. I'm sorry that none of the other guys who expressed an interest in doing a steam model of the Bogie have not been able to get started. However if Accucraft actrually comes out with theirs I'm sure it will be less expensive and a lot less work. For me it has been a very satisfying journey.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Congrats on a beautiful finished model Winn!! She's a real piece of art and craftsmanship!


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Win, 
Congratulations on finishing the most beautiful locommotive in the world. A Mason Bogie. You will walk away with prizes in Denver I am sure. I would vote for you. You know "Vote Now, Vote Often" LOL 
Your scrap pile looks like mine. It always seems to take two to three tries before I get it to my satisfaction. 
Noel


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Win, everyone elses' comments say it all. A magnificent model! 

Larry


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