# Aristo Craft GP-40 vs SD45



## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

I hate to make A vs B threads but I really don't know what to do. I have an LGB Denver and Rio Grande Alco DL535E. For those that don't remeber this train was part of the Queen Mary Edition LGB came out with. (pictured below)
 
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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

I think that the difference is way more than cosmetic. I am biased since I own 5 SD45's, two in Rio Grande. The answer is pulling power, and plain running. In a pulling contest a friend's SD45 pulled exactly the same 168 lb train, that my Dash Nine pulled. I don't know anyone who has had problems with an SD45. My first RG is now seven years old and going strong. I have some RS3s with only two axles per truck, and there is no comparison as to the way the six axle trucks stay on the tracks also. I vote enthusiastically for the SD45.
Paul


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Edit-Post deleted to make a combined post


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I Agree to Paul Bottino vote SD45. I have 3 SD45 one is Rio Grande, one is BN and one is Pennsylvania. Aristo SD45 about Rio Grande there is 4 Road number. 5319,5326,5328,and 5333. my is no.5319. SD45 is powerful weight 15lbs. I never have any problem with Single Sd45 towing 40 cars or more. I love it! 

I dont have any GP40 yet.

Here a Photo Aristo-Craft SD45 Denver & Rio Grande Western no.5319 and Aristo-Craft Caboose.


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Im glad you brought that up. That was one question I had on my list that I wanted to ask. Does the GP-40 come in more then one road number. I definitely want more then one engine and I don't want two engines with the same road number. Has anyone else had problems with the GP 40 motor?


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Only 2 road number on D&RGW GP40 no.3082 and 3085


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I hear about GP40 motor block and SD45 motor block, both motor block can match same speed slow but RS3,FA-1,U25 all Three have fast speed! you can match RS3 and GP 40 it didnt hurt each motor! Rs-3 spinning wheel fast and GP 40 spinning wheel slower! The SD45 motor block have 2 motor each truck! total is 4 motor on Single SD45.


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Well I was going to go with the GP 40 but it sounds like the SD45 is much better. I'm going to go to the train store tomorrow and see how much I can get for my LGB Rio Grande. I'm hoping I can get enough for it to at least do a trade.


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

I'll have to agree that the SD 45 is a nice locomotive. I only have 3 of them. I also have 2 GP 40's. The only thing that I don't like about the 45's, is that they wont go where the 40"s will, and they will find bad track work for you every time. 

Loco Lee


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well the SD45s are great but you will need to correct back to back spacing to get them to really operate good through turnouts. I have 3 of them and now after making the correction I can run them any where. I also have 4 GP40s and they also are great operating locos but they due draw a little more current. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Slickrick214 on 07 Sep 2010 12:12 AM 
Well I was going to go with the GP 40 but it sounds like the SD45 is much better. I'm going to go to the train store tomorrow and see how much I can get for my LGB Rio Grande. I'm hoping I can get enough for it to at least do a trade. 

In my opinion the main difference between the GP-40 and the SD-45 (aside from what has been mentioned) is the number of axles. With 4 axles the GP-40 will have less traction but go around a tighter curve than the SD-45 and the reverse is true in that the SD-45 needs wider curves to run on.

One major difference is that your LGB loco even with its 6 axles will go around even a 4' diameter curve. Another difference is that your loco has hook and loop couplers but both the GP-40 and SD-45 would need some cutting away and extra effort to fit hook and loop couplers to them. Of course if you want knuckle couplers this is not an issue.

If you are interested in a trade let me know and we may be able to work something out. I'll send you an email about it.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Well then let me ask you your opinion on this. If your tight on space then do you think the GP-40 would be better because it can take smaller curves. Also maybe I'm missing something here but the GP-40 has less pulling power because it only has one motor per truck but does that really matter if your going to have two or three engines linked together to pull a bunch of freight cars?


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Posted By aceinspp on 07 Sep 2010 09:06 AM 
Well the SD45s are great but you will need to correct back to back spacing to get them to really operate good through turnouts. I have 3 of them and now after making the correction I can run them any where. I also have 4 GP40s and they also are great operating locos but they due draw a little more current. Later RJD 









How do you do that and is it hard to do? If you don't correct the problem what happens do the trains derail or come un coupled?


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

One other issue is what type of power system you are using. If you are running on battery or are ever planing on converting to battery, the GP40 will run good on a 2 amp battery where the SD45 which has 3 axle trucks really needs a 3 amp battery.


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

I was going to run it from a power pack. I have an Aristo Craft 55451 3.5 Amp DC power supply pack with a 1.8 amp power supply controller. I wasn't going to ever run it on battery. I like using good old fashion power packs. To me I save battery powered trains for the cheap junk you buy in Toys R US for 50 dollars.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Slickrick214 on 07 Sep 2010 10:53 AM 
Well then let me ask you your opinion on this. If your tight on space then do you think the GP-40 would be better because it can take smaller curves. Also maybe I'm missing something here but the GP-40 has less pulling power because it only has one motor per truck but does that really matter if your going to have two or three engines linked together to pull a bunch of freight cars?


In my opinion if you are tight on space the GP-40 would be a better choice. Even though the SD-45 (and E-9) can make it through 8' (R3) diameter curves they really do not like doing it and will jump the rails given a chance. I had to load my SD-45's down with a lot of weight to keep them from derailing when going through my 8' curves and turnouts. 

From my perspective SD-45's are best with long trains on wide curves while GP-40's are best when anything less than 10' diameter curves are used and long trains (without multiple units) are involved. 

With your LGB loco you are also giving up your traction tires so you will need a more weight to get the same traction out of either a GP-40 or a SD-45.

Another factor (since you mentioned that you will be track powered - as most of my trains are) for reasons I do not understand the MUing of the GP-40 and SD-45 (and E-8) is DISCONNECTED when running under track power. The MU PLUG ONLY HAS POWER WHEN BATTERY POWER IS SELECTED. 

When you start talking about MUing two or three of these locos you will need to get a different power supply of at least 5 amps for two locos and probably should look at least at 10 amps if you are thinking about 3 locos. The power supply has to handle not only the loco but also the smoke units, sound systems, lights plus the lights etc. of anything you are pulling with the loco which can even include smoke units in Aristo-Craft cabooses.

You have a lot of variables (which is fine) but every variable is increasing your total amp needs.

Regarding traction it is not so much the motor size as it is the weight of the locos and the number of wheels transmitting that weight into traction on the rails. I suspect both the GP-40 and SD-45 wheels would slip before the motor gave out (unless weights were added) but I have not tried it. 

There have been some discussions about the durability of the GP-40 vs the SD-45 but when I looked into them (before buying my GP-40's) the users I talked to were happy with them. Some of the issues were more related to battery consumption rather than motor failures. At least one person put FA-1 motor blocks on his GP-40 but that was mainly to get longer battery runs.

While I have and run the GP-40's, E-8's and SD-45's I have not run any of them long enough to give any sort of qualified opinion regarding their relative durability and I don't pull long heavy trains except I do have to pull some heavy streamliners up steep ramps. For that I went to SD-45's with extra weights.

In most cases I think that most people end up happy when they buy what appeals to them. If you happen to prefer a GP-40 or a SD-45 you would probably be happy with whichever one you prefer.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Slickrick214 on 07 Sep 2010 12:07 PM 
To me I save battery powered trains for the cheap junk you buy in Toys R US for 50 dollars.










Now you have really pushed the hot buttons. You may want to change your alias after posting that.





































Turn the lions loose!








Here is a little gasoline for the fire (I bought several of these for $10 each):











Regards,

Jerry


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Bolth the SD-45 and the GP-40 have there fair share of issues, the SD-45s were mostly motor block related issues. the GP-40 has had a whole host of issues including motor block gear and motor issues, wiring issues. wheel platting problem galore. So my suggestion would be to read up before you buy so you know what your getting yourself into before you buy either. heres one link search the forums there are plenty of threads out there. Have you thought about a USA p-38 ? now thats a Quality loco.....










http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Slick (or is it Rick?) (just kidding) 

Why not start off at the beginning, what diameter curves are you using? That would sure help the recommendations. 

You can connect multiple Aristo locos together with the "mu" connector, but you need to check them out electrically first, sometimes they are wired wrong. 

Pulling power is really more determined by the weight of the loco, more wheels do not make a difference, in fact, if all the wheels don't contact the rail evenly, more wheels is worse. 

You will run out of traction before you run out of motor, so the 2 vs 4 motor thing (especially with the larger motors in the GP 40) really does not hold. 

And lastly, the GP40 draws more current than the SD45, again owing to a unique motor in the GP40, not used in any other Aristo product. 

The SD45 is time proven and a workhorse. The GP40 can do well, but has had more production quality issues than other Aristo diesels. 

Regards, Greg


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Either way if either the GP-40 or SD45 isn't heavy enough to get good traction for the load I'm pulling how would you make it heavier. Don't both come with lead blocks for extra weight?


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't like USA trains to me they're just not as nice as LGB or Aristo Craft.


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

Yes they each come with only one lead block now. But you can add two more. That is what I have in my dash nine that pulled all the weight. you want your engine to weigh 15 or 16 pounds. You will have to buy extra weight. Unfortunately, the environmental wackos have taken the lead out and it is replaced by some kind of other metal . And also pretty expensive.
Paul


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Plus the new AC weights weigh less. But it's better than non at all. Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

If it turns out that weights are needed Aristo-Craft offers free weights for the cost of shipping ($5 I think). Aristo-Craft states that they stopped including the weights due to the extra shipping damage it was causing and most if not all manufacturers have stopped using lead for environmental reasons.

I have had no problems getting the extra lead weights I've needed either from Aristo or owners who have removed their weights and replaced them with batteries. The SD-45 weights I got recently from Aristo were still lead and fit the SD-45 and the E-8 but the E-8 weights were alloy so I just used SD-45 weights for both locos (different shape and screw lengths but fit fine in both locos). Then too any old lead weights will do. I've used lead bullets and others have used lead shot for various applications.

USA like LGB uses traction tires so they do not need the weight that Aristo locos need to get the same pulling power. I believe it is still possible to buy traction tired wheels from Aristo. Some people hate traction tires and they do cut down on the electrical conductivity. I like them but I mainly use them with multiple locos that are MUed together.

After you have put 3 lead weights into a SD-45 or a E-8 you end up with a very heavy loco. This may be something to consider with a ceiling layout since two heavy locos can make a big difference on the support you will need and if one of those heavy locos fell I would not want to be below it.

I've never added weight to my GP-40's and if I was running my SD-45's on a level track (as your layout probably is) I would not have needed those weights.

You have not mentioned which railroad you are looking for. It may turn out that you can only get the railroad you want in one of the two locos as both those manufactured and those still in stock differ a lot. As an example a UP SD-45 is available but a UP GP-40 is not. The railroad you want may not be available in either. I bought a USA GP-38 partially because it was available in MoPac and Aristo has nothing in MoPac.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the great deal on your "Free" weights is pretty much gone ever since the E8, where people were charged up to $15 each. Your information is accurate for a number of years ago, but not today. 

The baloney about shipping was because they put them in the SD45 (or was it the dash 9) box in a stupid place, fractions of an inch away from the loco nose, instead of in the fuel tank where they belonged. There's several threads on this, including the Aristo forum. This was all done to save money and shipping costs. 

USAT has basically stopped using traction tires, they are no longer on any of the newer locos. Again, old information. 

The proper weights for E8's are the Dash 9 weights, same shape and size.. the SD45's can be made to work. 

When you add 6 pounds of lead, you indeed end up with a heavy loco, but, for example, in the E8, you end up with a 15 pound loco, which is almost EXACTLY scale weight, and they pull great. 

Not trying to give you a hard time Jerry, but most of the information you recited was dated, true 5 years or so ago, but not now. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 08 Sep 2010 10:07 AM


Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Sep 2010 07:51 AM 
Actually, the great deal on your "Free" weights is pretty much gone ever since the E8, where people were charged up to $15 each. Your information is accurate for a number of years ago, but not today. 
*Perhaps some dealers might have charged for the weights but I have boxes of weights I got direct from Aristo just a *couple of months[/b] [/b]ago [/b]*and all I *was charged was for the shipping.[/b]

*EVERY SINGLE SD-45 (E-8's may or may not) have come with a printed sheet offering the free weights. The weights even came with sheets offering free weights. I never once got charged BY ARISTO for anything but the shipping. Maybe Aristo just likes me or treats me better than the rest of the entire world but I don't think so. *
It is possible that Aristo might have made an exception for me because I bought a lot of their locos and Revolutions and sound systems. I have no idea if others might or might not have been charged by Aristo for their weights. I also had receipts for all the locos I requested weights for and someone without receipts might have been charged. Again, I have no idea. Some lead weights were also given to me by owners at the HAGRS show.


If anyone is worried if they will get the weights free I would suggest that they phone Aristo at 973 351-9800. I'm not going to make the call since I've got all the weights I need.


The baloney about shipping was because they put them in the SD45 (or was it the dash 9) box in a stupid place, fractions of an inch away from the loco nose, instead of in the fuel tank where they belonged. There's several threads on this, including the Aristo forum. This was all done to save money and shipping costs. 

*Maybe so. I don't know. I never had a problem so I have nothing to compare with.*

USAT has basically stopped using traction tires, they are no longer on any of the newer locos. Again, old information. 

*The MoPac GP-38 I bought (new) last year from St. Aubins came with traction tires. The 3 UP PA/PB/PA's I bought (new) a month ago came with traction tires. The 4 MoPac PA/PB/PA/PB's I bought (new) last month came with traction tires.*

*I can only relate to what I buy and everything I have bought from USA (recently or in the past) except for the NW-2's (which never did come with traction tires) have ALL come with traction tires. I did not ask USA or the dealers when my locos were manufactured but some came straight out of USA inventory which suggests to me that much if not most of USA inventory still come with traction tires.

*The proper weights for E8's are the Dash 9 weights, same shape and size.. the SD45's can be made to work. 

*Totally correct. The only problem is that if one orders E8 or Dash 9 weights from Aristo-Craft they will receive (hopefully free) non-lead weights but if they instead order SD-45 weights they will (unless they have run out) receive LEAD weights that will in turn fit in their Dash 9's and E-8's. For me the question was not which weight is the "right" one but rather which weights were lead ones - and would they fit.*

When you add 6 pounds of lead, you indeed end up with a heavy loco, but, for example, in the E8, you end up with a 15 pound loco, which is almost EXACTLY scale weight, and they pull great. 

*But they can really hurt if a 15 pound loco falls from a ceiling layout onto one's head and two 15 pound locos might be more weight than the ceiling layout was built to hold - especially if (like I did) one has to depend on plastic anchors in a plaster wall because studs were not available everywhere a support was needed.*

Not trying to give you a hard time Jerry, but most of the information you recited was dated, true 5 years or so ago, but not now. 

Not trying to give you a hard time Greg, but everything I recited is weeks or months old. I did not buy any of the stuff I am talking about last year (except for the GP-38) much less 5 years ago.[/b]

Regards, Greg 
*I don't claim to know much about anything but the one thing I do know is when I buy stuff and especially when I get free stuff.**























* NOTE: Of course I can and do guarantee nothing. My comments above are not intended to guarantee or assure anyone of anything. I do not represent anyone so my comments have no value beyond stating my personal experiences. When in doubt ask the manufacturer or ask the dealer. 

Is Greg right in terms of what YOU might run into? Heck I don't know.
Am I right with reference to YOU? Heck I don't know.

My curiosity terminates at the end at my driveway.

My response to Greg is a personal response to comments Greg addressed to me. No More and No Less. Obviously we see things very differently which is part of what makes life interesting. If anyone is wondering, I take no offense at anything Greg says and I do not think Greg takes any offense at anything I say. 

*Regards,

Jerry*


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 08 Sep 2010 06:53 AM
If it turns out that weights are needed Aristo-Craft offers free weights for the cost of shipping ($5 I think). Aristo-Craft states that they stopped including the weights due to the extra shipping damage it was causing and most if not all manufacturers have stopped using lead for environmental reasons.

I have had no problems getting the extra lead weights I've needed either from Aristo or owners who have removed their weights and replaced them with batteries. The SD-45 weights I got recently from Aristo were still lead and fit the SD-45 and the E-8 but the E-8 weights were alloy so I just used SD-45 weights for both locos (different shape and screw lengths but fit fine in both locos). Then too any old lead weights will do. I've used lead bullets and others have used lead shot for various applications.

USA like LGB uses traction tires so they do not need the weight that Aristo locos need to get the same pulling power. I believe it is still possible to buy traction tired wheels from Aristo. Some people hate traction tires and they do cut down on the electrical conductivity. I like them but I mainly use them with multiple locos that are MUed together.

After you have put 3 lead weights into a SD-45 or a E-8 you end up with a very heavy loco. This may be something to consider with a ceiling layout since two heavy locos can make a big difference on the support you will need and if one of those heavy locos fell I would not want to be below it.

I've never added weight to my GP-40's and if I was running my SD-45's on a level track (as your layout probably is) I would not have needed those weights.

You have not mentioned which railroad you are looking for. It may turn out that you can only get the railroad you want in one of the two locos as both those manufactured and those still in stock differ a lot. As an example a UP SD-45 is available but a UP GP-40 is not. The railroad you want may not be available in either. I bought a USA GP-38 partially because it was available in MoPac and Aristo has nothing in MoPac.

Jerry


Ok thanks I'll call aristocraft to find out more about buying extra weights. Like I said in the beginning I want to get rid of the LGB Rio Grande for an Aristo Craft Rio Grande.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Slickrick214 on 08 Sep 2010 10:30 AM 
Ok thanks I'll call aristocraft to find out more about buying extra weights. Like I said in the beginning I want to get rid of the LGB Rio Grande for an Aristo Craft Rio Grande. 

That may make your choice easier in that Aristo shows the Rio Grand in stock in the GP-40 but not in the SD-45.

http://www.aristocraft.com/instock/checkstock.html

I have no idea if any dealers may have the Rio Grande SD-45 in stock or when it was last produced.

I also have not added any weights to my GP-40 so I can't say for sure which weights will fit it. I would guess that the SD-45 weights would but that is a guess.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nicholas Smith trains in Broomall, PA is showing (5) D&RGW SD-45's in stock. 

http://www.nicholassmithtrains.com/...COMOTIVES/

They might also buy your LGB diesel, but don't expect big bucks from them. In my experience, I have found that they are not the best prices on the net, but if you want something that everyone else seems to have sold out, odds are they have it. 

Edit: For fun, I checked trainworld, too. Their online shopping tool allowed me to add one to a shopping cart, so I guess they have one in stock, too. I would call.


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 08 Sep 2010 10:47 AM 
Posted By Slickrick214 on 08 Sep 2010 10:30 AM 
Ok thanks I'll call aristocraft to find out more about buying extra weights. Like I said in the beginning I want to get rid of the LGB Rio Grande for an Aristo Craft Rio Grande. 

That may make your choice easier in that Aristo shows the Rio Grand in stock in the GP-40 but not in the SD-45.

http://www.aristocraft.com/instock/checkstock.html

I have no idea if any dealers may have the Rio Grande SD-45 in stock or when it was last produced.

I also have not added any weights to my GP-40 so I can't say for sure which weights will fit it. I would guess that the SD-45 weights would but that is a guess.

Good luck,

Jerry 




I'll have to see what the train store has. As Mark said Nicholas Smith has the SD-45 in stock and Gp-40. I live right down the street from them and I'm there all the time. So did Aristo Craft stop making both the SD-45 and GP-40? Or do they still make them but do one run of just one specific railroad company every couple years?


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## Slickrick214 (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm way ahead of you. I talked to chris over there a couple months ago and asked him what I coud get for the LGB. He said probably a couple hundred dollars or an equal trade. I also have checked thier online store and found it to be not very up to date. They have listed on thier website as having no D&RG RS-3's in stock when in fact they do have one on the shelf towards the back of the store. They also have it listed as not having the GP-40 in stock but again they do on the shelf towards the back of the store. I found with them its better to either call or go to the store and have them check at the front desk to see whats definitly in stock. I have also checked train world because when Nicholas Smit doesn't have stuff I want in stock usually train world does.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Slickrick214 on 08 Sep 2010 12:14 PM 


I'll have to see what the train store has. As Mark said Nicholas Smith has the SD-45 in stock and Gp-40. I live right down the street from them and I'm there all the time. So did Aristo Craft stop making both the SD-45 and GP-40? Or do they still make them but do one run of just one specific railroad company every couple years? 



It's all about money (profit). What isn't?

A manufacturer (any manufacturer) comes out with a new product and everyone gets excited, can't wait to get it and is willing to pay a reasonable price for it. The manufacturer does not want to lose profits so he wants to make enough but he also needs to get his investment (cash) back A.S.A.P. so he can reinvest it on new (different) products or inventory. After his first batch is sold out to the dealers he may look at how fast it sold and may very likely decide that his money is better invested in making something different so that product may not be made again for years or it may only be made in the versions that were good sellers and not at all in slow movers.

It is not about how many can be sold as much as how much profit per item and how long it takes to turn that item (get his money back) and spend it on new product - same for the dealers (I used to be a factory rep - not toy related).

If you look at a catalog (any manufacturer) and their current inventory (if they let you) the chances are that the vast majority of their catalog is no longer in stock except for the items with repetitive sales like track.

Aristo is a bit unique in that they both let you look at their inventory but also most of their locos and rolling stock usually has the year of production printed on it somewhere.

Each production run is usually somewhat different in that it may have changes/improvements related to what they have developed or customer responses from the previous run.

Then too there are sales such as:

[*] *SEP-OCT 2010: BUY ANY REVOLUTION TRAIN ENGINEER SET AND GET A SECOND RECEIVER FREE PLUS SHIPPING* 

[*] *NOV-DEC 2010: BUY ANY 4 20’ CARS OR SINGLE TRUCK LOCOS OR EGGLINERS AND GET A FIFTH FREE PLUS SHIPPING *
[*] *JAN-FEB 2011: TRACK SALE – BUY 4 GET ONE FREE OF AVERAGE PRICE.*
[*] *MAR-APR 2011: BUY ANY 2-TRUCK LOCO AND GET A FREE 40’ CAR PLUS SHIPPING*
[*] *MAY-JUN 2011: BUY ANY 4 FREIGHT OR PASSENGER CARS AND GET A FREE FIFTH CAR FREE PLUS SHIPPING* 
[*] *JUL-AUG 2011: BUY ANY FOUR BUILDINGS AND GET A FIFTH FREE (OF AVERAGE PRICE) PLUS SHIPPING OR BUY A LITHIUM ION BATTERY AND GET A FREE CHARGER*

*Jerry*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, you missed all what I said... I said "newer locos" and you talk about the OLD PA's, i.e. one of their FIRST designs... I talk about people being ripped off on the E8 weights, and you talks about the SD45... Your mopac locos are NOS as far as I understand, have not had that road number in a long time. 

You are not looking at the big picture, but just the things you know about. 

Don't want to derail the thread any more, but you need to qualify your information... a beginner is probably not going to be NOS stuff... and we should talk about things in GENERAL, not the few locos that still come with traction tires from USAT... but that the majority DO NOT. 

Same with the weights... you need to read up on the Aristo forum about the E8 weight snafu... You cannot get lead weights for the E8 or the Dash 9 now, and people were made to wait almost 2 years for the E8 weights when it turned out that the freely available lead dash 9 ones were already available. I could not get "free" E8 weights either... they are NOT $5, but last time $15, that is NOT FREE. 

You needed to read what I said carefully... and yes, I'm sure you got preferential treatment, since you lecture in behalf of Aristo. Many people got SCREWED on weights. 

Our beginner needs accurate information... not skewed towards one vendor or another... by the way, I think that USAT has sales also... 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Sep 2010 01:31 PM 
Jerry, you missed all what I said... I said "newer locos" and you talk about the OLD PA's, i.e. one of their FIRST designs... I talk about people being ripped off on the E8 weights, and you talks about the SD45... Your mopac locos are NOS as far as I understand, have not had that road number in a long time. 

You are not looking at the big picture, but just the things you know about. 

Don't want to derail the thread any more, but you need to qualify your information... a beginner is probably not going to be NOS stuff... and we should talk about things in GENERAL, not the few locos that still come with traction tires from USAT... but that the majority DO NOT. 

Same with the weights... you need to read up on the Aristo forum about the E8 weight snafu... You cannot get lead weights for the E8 or the Dash 9 now, and people were made to wait almost 2 years for the E8 weights when it turned out that the freely available lead dash 9 ones were already available. I could not get "free" E8 weights either... they are NOT $5, but last time $15, that is NOT FREE. 

You needed to read what I said carefully... and yes, I'm sure you got preferential treatment, since you lecture in behalf of Aristo. Many people got SCREWED on weights. 

Our beginner needs accurate information... not skewed towards one vendor or another... by the way, I think that USAT has sales also... 

Greg 

Hi Greg,

I have no idea what the big picture is. I also have no idea of what you refer to as newer locos. Since the PA-1 is in the current USA catalog that to me makes it a new locomotive. I never looked for a PA before - ever - so I have no reason to think about how new or old the PA-1 might happen to be. I buy it, it comes in a new box and has obviously never been out of that box before I bought it; I put it on the track and it runs just like every other USA loco I've owned so it meets all my expectations of being a new locomotive.

All I know or care about is what happens when I see something I want to buy and what happens after I buy it.

Everything I buy is new because it is new to me. I think it is also new to most people because I don't think most people concern themselves with the history of whatever it is that they are considering purchasing beyond whether it is likely to work or to give them headaches.

Considering that manufacturers are selling some items that have been in their inventory for a long time and dealers are selling some things that have been in their inventory for a long time there is no assurance that someone buying something today is not going to be buying something that was not made a long time ago.

I don't see how anything I said skewed anything to or from any manufacturer in any way. The name of this topic is Aristo Craft GP-40 vs SD45. Since my comments have been focused on Aristo-Craft; GP-40 and SD-45 for me to talk about other brands would be skewing HIS topic in a direction he did not ask about. If his topic was about USA my comments (if any) would have been focused on USA. I guess USA has sales too but if so I don't recall ever hearing about them and when I go to their website I do not see any reference to any USA sales. I guess I could have said that my new USA Hudson did not come with traction tires.









you need to read up on.... 

I don't spend a lot of time reading forums. I just glance at them and read the few things that catch my eye. 

I'm sure you got preferential treatment, since you lecture in behalf of Aristo.

Heck, maybe that is true. I don't know and nobody ever told me such was the case. I'd love to get preferential treatment from all manufacturers.

Lately I've been "lecturing" on the USA Big Boy; the USA Hudson, the USA PA/PB-1, the Accucraft K4 and a few others so hopefully they too will give me preferential treatment. Generally speaking I've always felt that I have received preferential treatment from every manufacturer. The few times I felt I was not given satisfactory treatment a future situation arose and the manufacturer took the opportunity to change me back to being a happy customer of theirs. I never slam doors behind me as I may want something from that manufacturer in the future. 

One thing that is true - all of my information is accurate. It may or may not reflect accuracy in the eyes of someone else but I never make any claims for how what I have experienced may prove to be the same experience others will have. 99.99% of what is said on forums is nothing more than everyone's comments on their own personal experiences. I am no different. 

We only got into this conversation because I gave Rick a link to a LGB publication and you brought up the LGB Conductive Paste - which is hardly skewing the topic toward Aristo-Craft. Rick stated he is going to phone Aristo-Craft about the weights so he can comment (if he wants to) about what sort of reception he gets from Aristo-Craft. If someone wants to report how he/they got screwed by Aristo-Craft on weights I'm sort of surprised he/they have not spoken up here with all the specific details of how the screwing took place. 
One thought that just crossed my mind is that I got screwed ; ) by Aristo-Craft because they ended their sale with a free boxcar with the purchase of all those SD-45's and E-8's a month before I bought mine. Maybe that is what happened. Maybe someone got a free boxcar and did not also get free weights while I got free weights but no free boxcars. Perhaps Aristo decided they could not afford to give both away.


Regards,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

Interesting. I was not aware that USA had stopped using traction tires. 

Looking at USA's website, the following locomotives list traction tires as replacement parts:
GP7/9
F3
GP-38
SD-40-2
GP-30
PA-1

And they didn't list it, but my 44-tonner also has traction tires. 

Maybe you should call them and let them know that their website information is out of date. 

Have they also stopped using split axle gears?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would say it's still a hit and miss on the traction tires. I have an S-4 and 44 ton that did not have them. However my newer PAs did have them and so does the SD40s,F3, and GP7. Maybe one day they all will come without the traction tires. So far they are still making the split axle using the plastic gear. Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 08 Sep 2010 02:36 PM 
I would say it's still a hit and miss on the traction tires. I have an S-4 and 44 ton that did not have them. However my newer PAs did have them and so does the SD40s,F3, and GP7. Maybe one day they all will come without the traction tires. So far they are still making the split axle using the plastic gear. Later RJD 

RJ, You and Greg are correct. All the newest run locos seem to be coming with no traction tires, All 7 of my SD-70 heritage units and 3 of mt NYC GP-38s have come with all metal wheels. They are the newest that USA has made. Just because a loco is new it doesnt mean that it was built recently.The reason USA shows traction tires in stock is cause unlike Aristo they stock parts for all there loco and rolling stock most of the time and not just for the prefered customers who do consulting work for them or other Special people who speek on their behalf














This is another reason why USA is #1 in 1/29th.. OOOOOOO and just one last thihng, how long did Aristo have some peoples GP-40 Motor blocks for when sent in for repair????????????????? over a year rite..Now thats the service weve come to exspect from the Jersey Boys.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, I said the NEWER locos do not have traction tires... if you quote me, quote me accurately, you just made the same mistake Jerry did... I said it clearly: 

USAT has basically stopped using traction tires, they are no longer on any of the newer locos. Again, old information. 

READ THAT SENTENCE WHERE IT SAYS NEWER AND BASICALLY... 

Jeeze... you guys are so hot to slam someone and something that you twist words.... 

USAT is phasing out traction tires. And just because they are available as replacement parts does not mean they are on CURRENT manufacture. 

The Aristo "suckup" is getting ridiculous,.... OK to slam USAT but not Aristo? 

Get out of the stone ages and get current. 

The F3, the PA, and GP7/9 are some of their oldest locos. OLD .... The SD70 and GP38 are newer, and the S4..... 

Instead of absorbing meaningful information, you guys both misquoted me and changed the meaning to always and then attacked.... 

P.S. Not skewed? Quoting all the Aristo sales rather than just saying they have sales? Oh, accidentally "forgot" USAT, AML & Bachmann sales? 

Come on... 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Sep 2010 04:17 PM 
Instead of absorbing meaningful information, you guys both misquoted me and changed the meaning to always and then attacked.... 

P.S. Not skewed? Quoting all the Aristo sales rather than just saying they have sales? Oh, accidentally "forgot" USAT, AML & Bachmann sales? 

Come on... 

Greg 





Hi Greg,

Neither Mark nor I are attacking you or anyone else. Neither of us have any interest in doing that. 

The simple fact is that Rick started this topic about Aristo-Craft locos (exclusively) - he made no reference to any other brand (other than LGB). Rick did not ask for anyone's opinions or recommendations about any brand other than Aristo-Craft. Rick's topic title defined what he was seeking information about. 

Every company has customers who like the company and as a result tend to speak up for that company when negative things are said about that company. Its called Customer Loyalty and it is to be expected when someone says negative things about products or a company that someone likes and has spent a lot of their money on. 
If you offer your opinion that the LGB article is ridiculous you invite anyone who respects LGB and Heinz Koopmann (chief engineer of LGB) to defend Mr. Koopmann - who probably wrote the article 20 years ago.


If you offer your opinion that Aristo-Craft screws their customers you invite anyone who has experienced good customer service from Aristo-Craft to speak up for Aristo-Craft.

Lets be totally honest here. The only attacks that were made were by you on Aristo-Craft and by you on LGB. The comments made by myself and Mark were not attacks on you they were comments by satisfied customers speaking up for companies they like buying from.

My comment about the Aristo-Craft sale was because Rick is planning to buy a loco from Aristo-Craft (his choice) and as an intended Aristo-Craft customer it is logical to assist him with information on an Aristo-Craft sales flyer - that I just happened to receive yesterday.

I did not forget USA, Bachmann or AML. Why would I tell Rick about sales on products he has not expressed the slightest interest in? Why would I be expected to even know about sales from other companies when I've never heard of them even having such sales?











It is not about absorbing meaningful information. Neither Mark nor I requested any information to be absorbed. You volunteered it and if there was a miscommunication it was probably because everyone was talking from their own perspective and not listening to the others (pretty much the normal state of affairs here on MLS). 

Your interpretation of "new" appears to be (I don't want to put words into your mouth) what is being or is about to be shipped from the factory. My interpretation of "new" is anything that I am likely to buy in an unopened box out of existing stock from a dealer (perhaps at a train show) or from the manufacturer's current inventory if the dealer has it sent direct.

I assure you that Mark is not the kind of guy who makes attacks on anyone and I would hope that you know me well enough to appreciate that I do not either. 
I am at a total loss regarding "slamming USA". If it has anything to do with traction tires I consider having traction tires to be a very positive thing (to me personally). I LOVE traction tires and I am extremely happy with the fact that my PA-s came with them. I doubt seriously that the UP PA/PB/PA could pull 11 USA Streamliners if they did not have traction tires or a LOT of weight added. I value my NOS (if that is what they are) PA's higher because of their traction tires than I would if they were hot off the ship but lacking traction tires.


This topic is not about you, me or Mark. It is about Rick and we have pretty much trashed his topic (all of us) and for that I apologize to Rick.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo screwed their customers on the price of E8 weights. 

The evidence is on the Aristo forum. 

Again the don't screw their customers all the time, just sometimes. 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

OK. Its not my job to defend Aristo-Craft. I'm done here.

Regards,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I haven't twisted your words. I don't appreciate your attempt to make me out as a bad guy here, either. I read your post and was interested to see if USA had updated their webpage. The information there would indicate that they have not changed their design, but your experience has shown that they have. That is a good thing since the first thing that is recommended by you is replacing the traction tired axle, right? 

I don't understand the comment about "it is ok to slam USAT but not aristo." Umm.. what are you talking about? 


Mark


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Some of you guys really need to get a life and relax, seems like some of you just like to post to hear yourselfs talk and try to defend the undefendable. All i can tell you is what ive red , and is not good for the GP-40 or Aristocraft as far as repairing stuff. Any ways big curves big loco, small curves small loco should be easy choice.
Johnn

P.S. Dont let anyone try to do a sell job on you, pick what you like. This happened to me once and i will not FORGET IT........................


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, I said some very specific things, please do not generalize... 

I said specific things about the NEWER USAT locos not having traction tires... both you and Jerry changed my words to ALL... Same about the E8 weights, I was specific, quoting me changed it to ALL. 

The point was not ALL USAT locos have traction tires, and the newer locos from USAT don't have them (newer as in design) 

The SD45 weights were lead, the E8 were zinc... I was only talking about the E8... 

Yes the SD45 weights can be had for the $5, but Aristo did indeed charge many people $15 each, and in one case $20 each for E8 weights that took almost 2 years to get, and then they were 1/2 the weight. 

That's what is twisting my words... I was very careful to be specific... you guys misquoted me and changed the meaning to ALL cases.. after the SECOND time it happened in the thread I spoke out again... 

I don't like generalizations because they are often wrong... so I go to great lengths to try to be very accurate, especially when it is "negative" information. When you and Jerry misquoted me, then even more "casual" readers will say "darn that Greg, I know not all Aristo weights are zinc, and I know I got them for $5 each...".... 

So now I am the "bad guy" because I "slam everything"... 

Maybe it's impossible to be specific or accurate? I sure do try. I'm not giving up. 

(to prove this: look at Johnn's comment here... he has the impression that Aristocraft is not good at repairing locos... I do not think that is true... some things they have trouble with, but on the whole they have excellent service, and will keep trying, even on a "problem loco". I know Navin personally, and he's (in my opinion) one of the biggest assets Aristo has) 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 08 Sep 2010 06:53 AM 
If it turns out that weights are needed Aristo-Craft offers free weights for the cost of shipping ($5 I think). Aristo-Craft states that they stopped including the weights due to the extra shipping damage it was causing and most if not all manufacturers have stopped using lead for environmental reasons.

I have had no problems getting the extra lead weights I've needed either from Aristo or owners who have removed their weights and replaced them with batteries. The SD-45 weights I got recently from Aristo were still lead and fit the SD-45 and the E-8 but the E-8 weights were alloy so I just used SD-45 weights for both locos (different shape and screw lengths but fit fine in both locos). Then too any old lead weights will do. I've used lead bullets and others have used lead shot for various applications.
Jerry


I looked further into the situation with regard to the free weights and it turns out that I was mistaken in my comments above. What I found was this:

12-06-2007

Dear All,

Here is the pricing explanation on weights. We now should include one weight in each locomotive and that's how we're invoiced from the factory. 

The E-8 weight installation got missed by us and the factory, so we will supply the weight for shipping charges of $5 for the one weight. If you need more it's $10 per weight, but we will pay the shipping. So, for the E-8 it would be $25 for 3 weights and $15 for two and $5 for one. 

On all other locos it's now $10 per weight with free shipping.

We're getting slammed on commodity prices for all metals and trust me that the weights are not a profit center. The new weights are lead free and will pass all of the new laws for such. I don't have to tell you about the bad press about lead weights even if our products are not sold to children. The law requires lead free; so that garbage dumps will not leek lead into the environment and they are not kidding about any of this. We take the law and concept seriously, so thus the change in policy. I don't want my new grandson to point any fingers accusingly at me down the line.

All the best,
Lewis Polk 

Now the embarrassing part...









When I got my weights from Aristo-Craft I had charged the weights to my credit card and I never did look at the receipt. The weights came with a shipping notice and the invoice/receipt came later in an envelope which I filed without reading.

Since most of my weights were given to me by Aristo owners who had converted to batteries (and had read my posts about needing weights for my E-8's and SD-45's) I did not end up with a bill big enough to notice when I got my credit card statement. I ended up with more offers of free weights than I could possibly use so there are a lot of free weights out there available from Aristo owners who are not using them. 

The notice above goes back to 12-06-2007 so I don't know if this is or is not the current Aristo policy.

I gave Slickrick incorrect information and I apologize for that. It was my mistake and not Aristo-Craft's.

Now I really am done here but I made a mistake and it needed to be corrected.

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as the reply the GP40 is not good, just your hear say. Own one then give us you opinion. I own 4 and have had no issues with them since I've had them. Getting ready to buy a couple of more. Later RJD


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no position is this discussion, except to state that as far as I know USAT changed the knurling on the axle shafts, which was one of the reasons why the gears cracked, starting with the GP-30. 

It is good news indeed that USAT have started supplying locos without traction tyres.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have about 20 USAT locos, with the "old" and "new" knurling. In my opinion, from going through the axles on EVERY loco, and while swapping out traction-tired wheelsets for "solid" ones... the knurling is BETTER, but I still have split axles with the NEW knurling. 

In my observation, it's really the age of the plastic axle that is the determining factor. I have bought several NOS locos and they often have a lot of split axles. One 44 tonner had ALL EIGHT locations split right out of the box! 

It's too bad this cannot be corrected, but it's my only "peeve" and the axles are readily available, for a reasonable cost, and USAT's parts "guru" Mike is great. So, it's not a huge deal in exchange for everything else usually being perfect. 

Regards, Greg


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