# Powering MU consists at Marty's.



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I am interested to find out how the operators of multiple loco consists that ran at Marty's "thingy" were powering and controlling them".

Q1. How many had individual ESC's in each loco which were controlled as MU'ed consists from one TX handpiece?
eg, the REVO, Airwire, or RCS/BELTROL etc.

Q2. How many used just one ESC to control all the locos in the MU'ed consist?
eg. just one trackside TE minus case or an RCS/BELTROL 9 amp ESC.

This is not trying to pit one system against another. I really am keen to find out.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony,
I'm not sure if I can be of much help even though I've double-headed at Marty's before. I never have the same engines and I use individual RX receivers in each engine. With this arrangement I use a TX controller in each hand. In some ways it's like having your hand on the throttle of both steam engines (it keeps you _very_ busy!) and it requires your full attention but boy, is it fun!! Considering that each ng steam locomotive is unique in it's characteristics, I'm not sure if linking two different sized locomotives would work very well.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Steve. 

Thanks for the input. 
I guess you were following steam prototype practice by having two "engineers" controlling controlling two locos. The real life engineers must have been quite skilled at balancing the loads to avoid wheelspin etc. 

What really interests me is how the really big consists (mostly diesels), such as the ABBA set belonging to Rex for example, were powered. With the length of the train being pulled that consist would require some serious grunt if it had only one ESC. Or lots of $$$$$$ if each loco had its own ESC.


----------



## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony

I was interested in exactly the same thing ... and had a close look at the various MU'ed setups while i was at Marty's. I will let the owners speak for themselves but offer the following observation.

The traditional setup has been a power car to power all units in the MU. This has not been without the difficulty of working around Aristo's crazy polyswitches and wiring a passthrough etc. It has also been dictated by the expense of the Rx and the limited current handling of many devices making only a few Rx suitable for high amperage situations. Also battery packs and charging devices are not inexpensive.

Since the Revolution has arrived very recently on the scene, there has been a marked movement (that has really just begun I sense) to place a separate Tx (and battery pack) in each loco.

The tradeoff between price and operational flexibility will always be there but the scale has become less tilted toward a power car and is likely to be even less tilted in future. The normal usage of a power car to serve as power for any loco in a large fleet would still of course remain.

Regards ... Doug


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I ran a Aristo F A&B unit on one Aristo Track side mounted in a box car. It was the old style that had only 2 chanels on it. The F units have been modified so that the Battery wire from the TE goes directly to the trucks of both units. There for all the motors are in Paralell. The lights are taped off that harnes. 

I ran on Ridgid cordless drill batteries 18 V 3 amphr. I pulled 25 cars. Three USA articulated contianer cars sets and some misc box. flat and tank cars with a caboose.

My Aristo SD45's would not run on the TE. Two SD-45's mued together drew 4 amps. but for some reason the TE refused to put out more than 10 to 13 volts.

If I ran them seperatly they ran to battery output voltage. (18.5) Putting a volt meter on the out put you could watch the voltage rise and stop at 10 

I have not investagted it as yet. I didn"t want to be a bench queen at Marty's this year


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks JJ. 

Were you trying to run the SD-45's back to back, or nose to tail?


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

To follow up on a reply from Marty in the Events forum. 

Thanks Marty. 
I knew about Jim Carter and his lash up. He was doing some testing for me in a large layout situation. 

Yes I know about how you do lash ups. 
By BB do you mean an ABBA set powered by one fan cooled TE that cut out with 64 cars in tow? Not surprising really. That is a big load. 
Which is why I am interested to find out how Rex powered his ABBA set up.


----------



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony,

I didn't make it this year. I run two USA GP's back to back, and back to nose. I run on a A/W in a trailing car most of the 10-12 car with metal wheel.
Sometime I'll pull about twenty cars.


----------



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

To anyone interested.

Although Tony is very aware of the configuration I used at Marty's, perhaps others might also be interested. Here is the configuration of my various lashups.

_F3AB DRGW w/9heavyweights:_[/b]
*One 9A RCS ESC powers both locos through MU plugs*. Wiring is set so that both locos have individual powerfeeds that plug into the USA boards for lighting and motors. *The MUd locos can be run either from battery or track power*[w/RC control]. Sound is Phoenix P9. *RC is by RCS Beltrol, with four sound triggers and proportional speed control.* Range was tested to 260 feet.

*SD-45s [2Frt. to Bk] DRGW w/dummy GP30 *
*One Airwire ESC powers both locos through MU plugs*. Wiring is set so that both locos have individual powerfeeds that plug into the USA boards for lighting and motors. *The MUd locos can be run either from onboard RC/battery, battery [with either RCS or TE] trail car, or track power. * Sound is Phoenix 2k2. I have pulled up to 46 cars with this configuration. The GP30 is MUd for lights and an LGB 65003 sound system only. The motor blocks have been removed and replaced with SanVal axles.

_F3AB SF w/7-13 Streamliners_[/b]
I built a *dummy FB trail RC/battery car* that powers both the A and B units. The *trail B unit holds an* *Aristo TE ESC*. Sound in the A unit is 2k2, with automatic settings for bell/horn. *The F3s are still capable of running from track power. * 

_FA1-FB1 UP with up to 25 freight cars._[/b]
The *FB1 has a lift up shell with an* *Aristo TE ESC* *mounted inside*. It has bypass MUs to the A unit. Sound is Soundtraxx Sierra, set for automatic operation. This *lashup can also be operated by track power or from a trail RC/battery car. *

_Trail/battery cars_[/b] [not used much anymore-mostly for guest locos on layout, or long runs with huge batteries]
LGB w/liftoff roof, *RCS 10A Trackside throttle w/TX-24.*
LGB W/liftoff roof, *Aristo trackside TE.* 
Jim Carter


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I had 2 MU'd consists running at Marty's. Both were with the REVOLUTION. 

One consist is an FABBA running from one REVOLUTION receiver in a box car. The box car also has 1 18.5 volt Li-ion 5200 mAh battery and a Sierra sound system. All the units are hard wired together and operate at ONE locomitive with 8 motors.

The train pulled the USA 9 car passenger train for about an hour with no problems except that the single receiver did give me the OVERHEAT warning because 2 of the passenger cars had derailed. Marty said that the 9 cars weighed 110 pounds.

The other MU'd locomotives were 2 LGB Moguls each with a REVOLUTION receiver and "tweeked" to run a the same speed throughout all running range. They are powered by a single 14.8 volt 5200 mAh Li-ion battery. Run times are 4 plus hours pulling 12 cars. Each locomotive has it's own sound and is independently controlled by the receiver.

Multiple receivers can be used to control the consist from different parts of the layout if desired.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be clear JC, your list 5 setups... setup 1 is RCS, setup 2 is Airwire. Are setups 3 and 4 Aristo TRACKSIDE TE units at 27 MHz removed from their cases and put in a loco? 

The term "TE" is not unambiguous, so just wanted to be sure of which of many TE's you are using. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The ESCs are the Aristo 27Mhz trackside 55470s, longtime lovingly and s imply called a "TE", not the 27Mhz and 75Mhz on-boards, or the Revolution. Include the "TE" trail car in this attempt to make my post unambiguous. Incidentally, the last mentioned trail car's trackside 55470 TE is still mounted inside its case, with the Aristo fan accessory attached on top. 
JC


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Stan. 

Four powered FA's from one revolution is vey impressive. 

Did you have the ESC fan cooled?


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01 Oct 2009 03:44 AM 
Hi Stan. 

Four powered FA's from one revolution is vey impressive. 

Did you have the ESC fan cooled? Tony... when I started on the FABBA consist, I was going to try using a receiver in each AB unit. When I had all the shells off and was hard wiring the 4 units together, I wondered if all 4 units would run on one receiver. It did and has been that way ever since. So far, I have not had to use a cooling fan. The units are hard wired together and connected using All Electronic's 4 pin connectors. Red and black supply power with the yellow and green connecting the Sierra sound to speakers in the A units. The battery car contains one REVOLUTION receiver, one 14.8 4400 Li-ion battery and a Sierra sound module with the adaptor board. Runtimes with the 14.8 4400 mAh are consistantly 2 3/4 hours. I'm doing tests with 18.5 volt 5200 mAh and have increased runtimes to over 3 hours.

I should qualify my runtime statements. Most of my train running is constant. I start the train with a fresh, fully charged battery and let it run until the PCB in the battery pack shuts it off. Change to a new battery and start all over again. The run times listed above are under those conditions.

Image of the test runs with just the FABBA chassis pulling 25 freight cars.










Then pulling 11 USA streamliners at Marty's using the 18.5 volt 5200 mAh Li-ion.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By pimanjc on 30 Sep 2009 10:22 PM 
The ESCs are the Aristo 27Mhz trackside 55470s, longtime lovingly and s imply called a "TE", not the 27Mhz and 75Mhz on-boards, or the Revolution. Include the "TE" trail car in this attempt to make my post unambiguous. Incidentally, the last mentioned trail car's trackside 55470 TE is still mounted inside its case, with the Aristo fan accessory attached on top. 
JC

JC, TE stands for Trackside Engineer. there are 27 MHz on board TE's, and 75 MHz onboard TE's, and the HO TE and the Basic TE, and the 27 MHz trackside TE, and the Revolution TE.

When someone comes on and says "my TE", I have learned that I need to ask which one it is... even by your definition the basic TE and the trackside TE make "TE" alone ambiguous.

So, maybe you will see that I asked a legitimate question because TE alone is ambiguous. People are using the Revo as tracksides too! Just too many TE's!

Regards, Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
As far as I know TE stands for Train Engineer.


----------



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Semantics. Pot(ay)to / Pot(ah)to....Greg makes a very valid point! Train or Trackside is irrelevant. Aristocraft has now made so many different versions of the TE that without further clarification the TE designation is essentially meaningless (at least at this level of discussion.) Considering the advancement between the original trackside TE and the onboard Revolution, it would seem to be a reasonable request. I'm sure Jim wasn't intentionally being vague. To many of us the TE _is_ the trackside unit using 27MHz! I wouldn't read anything into it.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oops, slip of the tongue, of course you are right.. Train Engineer.... was focusing on showing how many TE's there were, and not on the TE words. 

Newbies and experienced people alike often start questions: "My 2 locomotives stop running after 15 minutes with my Aristo TE"... 

Never hurts to be clear. Often when trying to help someone or solve a problem, I feel like I am "deposing" the person with the question. Then they often get upset at all the questions about the environment. 

Sometimes you just cannot win. 

I did not think Jim was being vague, he just seemed a bit "pissy" that I did not know it was a 27 MHz trackside TE. I did not think my question was out of line, nor stupid. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Tony, I ran three systems at Marty's...1st: was your Elite 6 Unit that we had on display at my booth setup in my E8 pulling 25 cars with my 24V 5000mah Sub C pack. I ran that unit for 2 hours, turned it around backwards then ran it for another hour taping Marty's three layouts. 2nd: was one of my Gondola Car's with our CR-1, The Train Engineer, and a 18.5V 5700mah Lithium Polymer battery-pack, and I ran that at night taping Marty's three layouts for about 2 hours. 3rd: was our New CR-2 Prototype (Designed with a digital display indicating voltage and amp hour charge and discharge) with The Train Engineer, and a 22.2V 6600mah Lithium-Ion Battery-Pack...both gondola cars with all systems weigh in between 5 - 7 lbs. Our 24V & 22.2V systems ran the best, I had troubles operating the Elilte 6 with distances over twenty feet, and in some cases it's pretty hard to stay close at Marty's. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Rick. 

Thank you for the feedback. 
Achieving good range depends on a number of factors. 
1. Did you fit RF chokes pcb's between the ESC and the motors. One pair on each motor wires as advised in the instructions? 
2. Was the antenna mounted up high in the roof with the RX-8 metal cased receiver part? 
3. Did you also fit an AZARR 27 Mhz lite antenna on the antenna wire up in the roof, in place of the full length of the regular antenna? 

# 1 will dramatically increase range capabilities. 
# 2 is required for any installation. 
# 3 makes it even better. 
I have regularly achieved well over 100 feet doing it the way I suggest. 

Trail car installations always give far better range than "in the loco" installations. The longer length of wires between the trail car the motors acts a fairly good RF choke.


----------



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 30 Sep 2009 06:26 AM 
Thanks JJ. 

Were you trying to run the SD-45's back to back, or nose to tail? 


Nose to Tail... How ever I was doing this on a bench. The engines were turned on thier side. All wheels were runing in the same direction. 

The TE would ramp up but just like it had a Voltage Cap it stopped at 10 volts


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hello Tony, I have tried all those suggestions, but because it's 27mhz (CB Band Width) you can only achieve so much range. I'm going to connect my Yaesu 2 meter receiver/transmitter in the 146.600 band width and see what happens. I have an "Advanced Class" Amateur Radio License and I've been a Ham since 1979 and I should be able to transmit via my laptop keyboard a key-stroke frequency that may turn-on the lights, or move my loco forward for backwards with your system. Or, it may not work at all, but let's see what happens! I'll keep you up-to-date. 

Rick


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By izzy0855 on 03 Oct 2009 06:54 PM 
Hello Tony, I have tried all those suggestions, but because it's 27mhz (CB Band Width) you can only achieve so much range. I'm going to connect my Yaesu 2 meter receiver/transmitter in the 146.600 band width and see what happens. I have an "Advanced Class" Amateur Radio License and I've been a Ham since 1979 and I should be able to transmit via my laptop keyboard a key-stroke frequency that may turn-on the lights, or move my loco forward for backwards with your system. Or, it may not work at all, but let's see what happens! I'll keep you up-to-date. 

Rick 

Hi Rick.
Range certainly can be a problem with 27 MHz, but, with suitable motor "noise" suppression and an AZARR antenna mounted up in the roof of the E8 along with the RX-8 receiver, I have easily acheived 200' range with most big AC locos.
Here is how I did it. Installing RCS in the AristoCraft E8. 
The main trick is to keep the antenna well away from the pwm generator used to power the smoke unit.

I haven't had a chance to install the new BELTROL in an E8 just yet but Jim Carter has one in his USAT F3 AB rig with absolutely no suppression and no special antenna placement.

Good luck with trying the RF rig you mention, but, unless you know what the RCS coding sequence is from the TX-24 to the PIC µp I am using, you will not get it to respond. If you do know the RCS coding, please get in touch with me off forum. I would be interested to discover how you obtained it.


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Sunday, i took alittle time to play around with Rick Issards batteries I got from him. 
I installed a plug and placed them in my old GP9 unit and off she went. I don't remember the size or label on the battery but it sure seemed to help my RCS reciption. I got the batteries because he said they would work in my Hirail truck and can be charged on my Milw multi charger. 








Just thought I would share it. 
Uncle Stan C will be calling soon to help me figure out my dang revolution which I still can't get linked to a number of locos. 
Brain dead I guess.


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 04 Oct 2009 06:42 PM 



Brain dead I guess. 
I really don't know if I should comment on that or not.










However, I will say that just 10 minutes on the phone had all the REVOLUTION issues solved and they're running.....


----------



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes father time, I mean Stan,, One little opps kept it from working but I did not know which opps it was. thank YOU SO MUCH STAN.. 
I was so happy I could not get to sleep.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you want to contribute to the common good and tell us what what wrong? 

Or did you finally get to sleep? ;-) 

Greg


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Step 2 assigning a cab number and step 3 addressing the su number are mandatory after the linking has passed. Just a couple of minutes of direction completed the process and he now has them running firmly under his control.


----------



## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hey Marty, it's great to hear that the battery-packs we designed for you are working good. They are the CP2400SCR High Rate Discharge NiCd Cells from Sanyo, and it will take between 3 - 5 cycles to get the maximum capacity from your battery-packs. Remember you have a 1 year (no questions asked) warranty, and you should get between 2 - 2 1/2 hours of runtime pulling 10 cars or less on your layout. I'm glad we could be of service to you, and thank you for having us at you get-together this year. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations


----------

