# Rumors about the Cumbres and Toltec RR?



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all,

I was reading a post on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Group this morning. It was a little disconcerting to hear that Al Harper and his company will be departing the C&TSRR next March. Apparently there will be a Commission meeting later this month concerning this situation. NOT good news for narrow gauge folks! Anyone else heard about this?


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## Steamer Bill (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't have information on the Cumbres, but I assume you know that the operating company involved sold their interest in the Texas State Railroad recently selling it to a freight operator. Fortunately TSRR is staying in the tourist railroad business.

Also can you send me the link to the forums that you mentioned? I would like to join that one.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steamer Bill on 02 Sep 2012 09:48 AM 
I don't have information on the Cumbres, but I assume you know that the operating company involved sold their interest in the Texas State Railroad recently selling it to a freight operator. Fortunately TSRR is staying in the tourist railroad business.

Also can you send me the link to the forums that you mentioned? I would like to join that one.


Here you go Bill.

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,224408

Hope the link works. 

I DO know about the Texas State Railroad sell.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

OK in laymans terms just what does this mean?

Thanks

Bubba


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The wife and I rode the Cumbres and Toltec RR on opening day this year. 

While the RR and the ride were great, this RR suffers greatly from poor local support. 

We arrived in Chama, late Friday afternoon. 

There was one souvinier shop open. 

For food had two restraunts to choose from.

The rest of this little town had rolled up the welcome mat and went to sleep. 

Many delapidated stores fronts and properties didn't help the experience. 

Durango and Silverton provide plenty of reasons to go back and ride the D&SRR because there is so much other stuff to do and see. 

Sadly the Cumbres and Toltec does not. 

The wife and I want to return to Durango and Silverton. 

Sadly, we have no interest in returning to the Cumbres and Toltec. 

It was a "Been there, Done that RR"


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## Westport (Nov 28, 2009)

Randy, I also heard from a friend who recently visited the Cumbres and Toltec that few toursit facilities were available in Chama other than the railway which is a change from the last time that I was there. But as a railfan who has been lucky enough to be able to ride several tourist and steam railways in North America and the UK, including the Durango and Silverton which I love, I personally think that the Cumbres and Toltec is a must experience. Chama's depot, frieght equipment, the grades, Windy Point and the scenery-especially in the fall with the aspens changing colour, are without equal. It presents a snapshot in a time past.There are many tourist railways that I dream of returning to in the UK and in North America, but the Cumbres and Toltec is top of the list. I hope to do it this fall. 
Myron


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to concur with this comment. Chama, in spite of it's total dependence on the C&TSRR is not very friendly. And as stated there isn't much to do nor many places to eat. The best and friendliest place to eat is the Hi-Country Cafe which is out on Highway 17 and 84. Most of the good lodging is south of town on 84 along the river. There is a lot to see in the area and it is beautiful. But downtown Chama isn't much. The railroad peopl, however, are very friendly and helpful. The last times I have been there I actually stayed in Antonito. It only has the one motel and a few places to eat, but the people are much friendlier. Also, Alamosa is just up the road and there is plenty there. However, none of this area has been developed into the tourist meca that is Durango and Silverton. But if you want to see what narrow gauge railroading looked like long ago this is it. It's very laid back and you can roam the yards and shops at will and look at all the old NG equipment that is still there.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Reading all this makes me think, just what do the fine folk of Chama think will happen to their town if the RR, which seams to be the main revinue source for the town, goes away? Talk about short sightedness. Running a venue is tough enough, even tougher without having local backing.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

From what I've heard discussed, Chama village suffers from the same malaise that a LOT of tourist destinations and college towns have. Namely, "Send us your money, but stay the he## home!" This oxymoronic attitude was sort of charming in it's obnoxiousness when it was just a New England thing. Now it's everywhere. 

The OTHER problem is a mind set that says those who benefit MOST from the RR are the "****** outsiders". Those relative newcomers who bought up many of the storefronts. The operators bringing in outside talent, no matter how good, rather than hiring locally doesn't help much, either.

THEN there is the rabid "historical preservation at all costs" mindset of many Chamaphiles nationwide. These folks vocally oppose (and pester the bi-state commission and legislatures) any major change, national store chains or other modernizing efforts in the town, saying it would ruin the 'atmosphere" and be the beginning of the end.... To them, Chama MUST remain the dusty backwater it was in the 1960's or it isn't worth preserving at all. These guys even objected to the RR putting gravel down on the parking lot (or improving the ROW for that matter!). 

The dual historic preservation and economic development missions of the RR have been at odds since 1970. It still sticks in the preservationists throats that they could'nt sell the idea of preserving the RR WITHOUT the economic arguments. The circular argument I've heard over the last 10 years is, The C&TS, being located the backside of beyond with few modern tourist comforts, is NOT self-sufficient, and probably never will be without catering more to them. which would ruin the whole point of going.......

Meanwhile, if you have kids, or a short attention span, or expect modern comforts, choices, and stores open beyond bankers hours to amuse you on your vacation.... Chama probably isn't a real good choice.

So, no, Chama isn't your regular tourist trap. Which is often both a blessing and a curse at the very same time.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

To me, the lack of typical tourist trap junk makes it much more appealing.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Take the ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

You'll be too busy enjoying yourself to worry about the town... ya 

I was like a "kid in a candy store" when My wife I and rode the train years ago!!!!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

The wife and I have been talking about making the narrow guage trip next year. I want to swing down to Chama and ride the C&T and reride the D&S. I understand the perservation but if you have something like the C&T which is clearly a tourist attraction, you need to support it as a local. 

I live in a tourist area, the Black Hills are over-run every year and I cuss them every year for thier driving habits and such. But, I fully support the industry and am glad the tourist is here. 

An enterprising person in Chama could truely "clean house" if they provided a place for the tourist when in town to ride the C&T. Since he would be the only game in town it would be a no brainer. 

On the other side of that coin, if there is a good possibility that the C&T would not be running then your business is all but sunk. 

THe C&T and the locals need to band together to create an environment of cooperation. If not, the C&T will be a rusted out has-been and the town of Chama will be a dust spot.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Jake, if you've never ridden the C&T RR, you really do need to make the trip there and ride it. 

The train ride is great. 

If you ride the train all the way to Antonito, expect a crapped, boring bus ride back to Chama. 

It's off the train, take a leak and jump on the bus. No time to look around the yard at Antonito. 

We stayed at the Branding Iron Motel and it was very clean and worked well for our one nite stay. 

No it's not the Hilton, but it didn't cost our first born either. 

We ate at a Mexican restaurant, just south of the motel on the opposite side of the road. 

Good food, but the name escapes me. The motel owners will know the name as they suggested the place. 

We seen two souvenir shops in Chama. 

One was open and the other had already closed. 

Not much else in town to do, so take your Viagra if you need it.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Although there may not be a lot of motels in Chama, there are a LOT of reasonably priced B&B's in town; probably the result of that local entrepeneurship which Jake is looking for. (At least they were reasonable when I visited almost a decade ago.)

One afternoon, at the B&B we were staying at, a long time 'Friend' of the C&T came into the kitchen with a string of trout he had caught out of the river, about 1/4 mile upstream of the Chama depot. The B&B owners (one of whom was also an officer of the C&T) invited us to join them for dinner. Fresh trout and several bottles of wine made for a rousing & entertaining evening. You're not going to have an experience like that at your local Motel 6!


Two relevant points I remember from that night's conversation -

1> As others here have mentioned, there seems to be some tension between the C&T folks and 'the locals', who don't feel that the railroad has brought that much benefit to the town. I know that sounds like 'cutting off your nose to spite your face', but there it is. (And clearly, the C&T has not lived up to its potential -- it can't quite pay for itself!)

2> The town of Chama, at least back then, was operating under some pretty severe water restrictions; and I had the feeling that it was a regular sort of thing. Is it possible that water limitations could restrict the growth of the town, and make it difficult to build more motels/restaurants? Just thinkin' out loud here..


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

We rode the C&TS in July, spent two nights there in the Branding Iron, as did Randy. If not a destination, the BI was a good accomodation. I didn't get to explore the Antonito yard, even though we stopped by there for a few minutes on the way to Chama during a brisk shower. My wife was anxious to get to Chama and stretch her legs after a seven-hour drive. I did get to spend an afternoon and two mornings, however, walking around the Chama yards. Of all of the various RR's I've visited, the C&TS is my favorite in terms of being able to step back into history and be absorbed by the ambience of the narrow gauge. I can appreciate that maintaining that atmosphere has created some conflicts over the years, but when you look around and see what has been accomplished since my first visit in the late 1970's, it's clear that, overall, it's in so much better shape now than it was then. 

It's uncertain how AHR's decision will affect operations in the near future, as the governance by the commission and the role of the "Friends" makes for potentially difficult conversations. I have high regard for what the "Friends" have accomplished and the results of their collective efforts have done so much to ensure that the legacy has been not only safeguarded, but enhanced. The commission is problematic by nature, made up of appointees from the two states and subject to political pressures and ambitions, tight budgets, and almost guaranteed high turnover among its members. There's been confusion as to it's mission, with instances of micro-management mingled with periods of indecision. Hopefully, when the current members meet on the 20th of this month, they can move toward some clearer understanding of their best role in the support of the enterprise. My opinion is that it should act as an enabling body and leave the details to a capable manager and the cadre of knowledgeable employees. 

Bottom line, the C&TS is a diamond located in the rough. The Cumbres experience is second to none, in my book. Chama willl never be a Durango, but I don't need to be entertained with glitz, neon, and trendy boutiques. A great ride, authentic atmosphere, and a couple of good night's sleep in the fresh mountain air constitute what a lot of us consider to be an ideal getaway. Granted, kids could get a little bored.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 08 Sep 2012 11:26 AM 
Not much else in town to do, so take your Viagra if you need it. 


TMI Randy...T.....M......I...... ;-)


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 08 Sep 2012 09:30 PM 
Posted By rlvette on 08 Sep 2012 11:26 AM 
Not much else in town to do, so take your Viagra if you need it. 


TMI Randy...T.....M......I...... ;-) 

I don't have first hand info, but I thought it was a pill... not a Twice Monthly Injection.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I really wouldn't know.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

My wife and myself stayed in chama in 2009. We stayed at the hotel arcoss the street from the chama yard the place has a ton of history also has a front porch that you can sit on and watch the train arrive from antinito. We again stayed at the same hotel along with another couple this year. The lady that runs the hotel is very friendly and helps you find what you are looking for. To stay in chama is like stepping back in time. If you are looking for bright lights and night life then chama is not for you. If we ever get back to chama we will stay at the same place as before, the hotel has history,great front porch and right across the street from the chama yard where you can walk and explore till your hearts content. For us chama was part of the experence.Plus with the c&trr ride you get to stop at osers for a real good meal.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Kay and I are riding Goose #5 Sept 27th on our way home from Marty's... This will be our 2nd time on the C&TSR. We're staying at the Cumbres Suites for the first time. We've done a B&B and the Branding Iron in past visits. The B&B was the better experience. 

I'll let you know my impressions of the Chama Suites and the #5 ride to Antonito.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I can't speak to the Chama Suites, but the #5 experience will be well worth it! Did that a little over 10 or so years ago--a perspective on the railroad you just don't get from the train. 

Alas, I have no insight into the latest operator situation at C&TS, suffice to say it's always been somewhat turbulent there. Time will tell. 

Later, 

K


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

When we stayed in chama this year the end of june we talked to some folks in the rail yard about the sale of the c&trr to the fellow that owens the texas and another rr and was told that the deal fell through. The c&trr are still owened by cololado and new mexico. Hope it stayes that way.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

We came at it from a different angle in October: A light dusting of snow greeted us at 6 am. We got up bright and early in Taos, then drove North to Antonito, where we parked and boarded their C&T fast bus to Chama. At Chama the morning Eastbound awaited us. My wife had reserved parlor car seats ( chairs and a little table with coffee and cider). Then the doubleheaded mikes took us out of Chama, with stack talk very clear from where I stood in the gondola behind the locos. What a great all day trip. Once is not enough. 

Tom


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Apparently the rumor of AHR bailing on their contract is true. 

The foamer rumor mill is already winding up to full tilt on the how's, why's and who's.... much sound and fury signifying mostly nothing. As usual. 

But if you want to make yourself a small fortune in the tourist RR biz, be ready to submit a bid. You'll just need a large fortune to subtract from.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

For my reference & a return to Chama, I ask - 

Is the 'Chama Suites' the name of the hotel across from the yard, or sumthin' else? And what's the "#5 experience?"


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

The name of the hotel that we stayed at is call THE HOTEL and it also has a gift shop it is across the street from the rail yard, the #5 exp i belive is riding the #5 galloping goose. The lady at THE HOTEL is very helpful and friendly.We have stayed there twice and would not stay anywhere else.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Gary.... My goof....







It's the Cumbres Suites... Not Chama Suites.... and it's located about a mile south of the C&TSRR yards on NM 17. We're riding Goose #5.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Well, despite whoever is running the C&T, I plan to go visit. It will either be next year or the year after. Hopefully it will still be in operation... 

Its good to know there is some enterprising individuals that have taken up the B&B business. I have kids and usually a B&B is boring to them. I usually try to find something that will keep the kids occupied, a pool works wonders.


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