# Something that I've noticed in our scale...



## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

Just a little thing I've noticed over the last few years...
 There is a rift starting to occur in our scale, granted there's not been alot made in the last couple years due to the economy, but I think our scale is moving in two different directions. One, some the manufacturers seem to want to move towards older types of Narrow gauge. And two, it seems to me that the other manufacturer's are tending to lean towards going to the modern models in Standard gauge. I feel that the transision era is getting left behind on a siding. Yes Aristo made the 2-8-0, AML did some stock cars and there are repaints of some 40 foot boxcars being done. But any deisels being made now are modern. The few announcements on rolling stock now too are modern cars. Yes they did the PS-3 covered hopper of which I am thankful for and now have about 20 of, but these came out as post merger cars after 1973. The only way I can get pre BN era cars is to paint and decal them myself. Yet the cars is post 1970. So the era of say 1900 thru 1970 is getting forgotten about. Now I know that there is a fairly good section of our modeling community that models in this time period, so what gives ??? Is our time period to be forgotten about and the manufacturer's now only going to cater to the newbies and young folks with Modern equipment in a cabooseless Standard gauge ??? I'm just curious if anyone else is noticing this trend. 
 
Rocky


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Interesting observation there Rocky... 

It would seem you are modeling in a given time period and want equipment that fits well with-in that period.. nothing wrong there!! 

There are many time periods, and the manufactures have been playing catch up over the years...moving towards the modern era.. 

One area I really notice tho - from all the research I do to get the right car with the right paint and lettering, is a great tendency to make a given car and 'put' on the wrong colors and logos.. I see cars I want.. one size car has the correct graphics on it, but the wrong car body, and if I look at the correct car body, the correct graphics are not an option... really frustrating - yes!! What I'm implying is cars get roads and logos and 'that road' never purchased the given car... ex - also,.. UP 'never' placed an order for a 70Mac, never - not one, but that is what we have to buy.. UP did buy 70M's and are still the roads mainstay to this day! Have you ever seen a blue GN 60' box car!!??? me neither..or 60' D&RGW box, nope!! 

They could spend 5 or 10 more minutes in research and do a better job for their customers! even an hour would be an improvement if they produced cars that were more correct! 

I simply concede to buying the car body in a size I want and paint accordingly! And there is a 'vast', I mean vast amount of logos and roads that never see the light of day we could all use, and I see travel the steel rails everyday! In that vein I try to buy cars on sale to reduce the cost of a repaint in their future! 

What's a guy to do? Good luck Rocky!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I think a lot of the problem with G Gauge in general is and will be the fact that most all the trains made in China are being made by the same company that owns Bachmann. So with that, is it any wonder that the company bringing out the most new stuff in the last 5 years has been Bachmann? Every other company relying on this company to build their trains has had large increases in cost and I'm sure they have had much longer lead times for delivery due to Bachmann products having #1 priority. 

Hartford products are made in the USA. The pricing is reasonable. If only they would start building some more product like what we're talking about here. Product would be more available as it wouldn't have to wait on other brands to be made before it's stuff, it wouldn't have to wait for a big enough order to fill a container and the shipping cost would be far less. Maybe we all need to start pestering the people at Hartford to open up their product line to some transition era trains. As for Hartford not having enough detail, there are plenty of cottage companies selling detail parts so that should not be a concern. 

As for the era and size of trains I model, I'm with you Rocky. Late 40s to mid 60s is what I prefer to model. So I'd like to see a nice 0-6-0 Penn Switcher with a slope back tender. A small 1/29 th scale gas powered switcher or a small Baldwinn Switcher.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You know, I model the transition era, but many people I know that are not narrow gauge are more interested in more modern stuff. 

While that's not great for me, I welcome people being more interested in the modern stuff, because that is what the younger generations grew up with and want to see. 

I'd rather there was new interest and new locos being built, even if not for my era, than nothing being being built, or the younger generation not being interested. 

I'm for the hobby first in this case, even if the next locos are not ones I want. 

Greg


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

"I'd rather there was new interest and new locos being built, even if not for my era, than nothing being being built, or the younger generation not being interested. 

I'm for the hobby first in this case, even if the next locos are not ones I want. 

Greg"

*One couldn't have said it better.*

Cheers
Victor


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not noticed any manufacturer or group of manufacturers making a concerted effort to produce a complete line of equipment of any era. It seems to be more of a haphazard, 'Let's see if this will sell." marketing decision process.

It also seems that if one manufacturer steps out on a limb and makes something unique for the market, a couple of others will jump on the bandwagon and make the exact same thing, thus diluting the market for the one that took a chance, and limiting the total expanse of equipment for whatever era it is for.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I really think that's a bit off base, your last statement. 

In SG, 1:29, Aristo makes an FA, USAT makes an F3, and LGB makes an F7 ... no duplication 

Only Aristo makes an E series loco. 

Only USAT makes a PA 

There's no duplication in the rest of their lines of diesels... Dash 9 aristo, sd70 usat, gp 40 aristo, gp38 usat. 

Yes, they both make 10,000 gal tank cars and 40 foot box cars, but actually I don't see any real substantial support for saying people "make the exact same thing". 

Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the same thing happens in all scales. How long was it before we had -9's and third gen EMD's in HO scale? 

Then there's the idea of putting 50 road names on a particular model and having people criticize you for "that paint scheme is wrong for that car..." 

The thing that's always mystified me - an every scale out there, including model cars, trains, airplanes, spacecraft and any other category, is how manufacturers decide what to make. For instance, XYZ announces a new F-7 and a week later, so does ABC, and the Acme comes out with the F-7 a year later. In the meantime, (in HO) we waited for years for an SD40-2, a locomotive as numerous as the F-7! 

The other thing that mystifies me is how manufactures complain about the expense of developing a new model, and then when they introduce one, they sell out in a week - indeed, often they never hit the shelves, they're all pre-sold. Why not make more of them? 

Manufactueres sometimes seem like they make stuff only they want, and they release some pretty odd-ball stuff. Really, why mass produce a locomotive that was an odd ball one of a kind? 

Oh, well, I agree on the Pennsy 0-6-0 slope back tender though! 

Robert


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

A bigger issue in LS than not making stuff you want, is not making stuff the average person that ISN'T committed to spending their kids' inheritances can AFFORD. 

The time that Gramma could spring for a nice train set for Junior is passing. $1K for a plastic loco? faggetabowdit. The B'mann Lil Haulers are probably going to be the last hurrah there. 

A hobby only for rich old guys usually dies with them


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Does anyone have a feel for how the smaller scales are trending? When I was in HO scale 25 years ago, "transition era" was by far the most common time period modeled, and models tended to be tailored to those modeling that period. When 1:29 first came onto the scene about the same time, it was with FAs, 40' freight cars and heavyweight passenger cars. As lamented, we're now gravitating towards more modern stuff in this scale, and from what I see on the shelves in the stores and in ads, the small scales seem to be gravitating that same way. Are modelers' tastes in the small scales progressing that direction, or is the transition era still popular? I know I see a bunch of modern stuff at train shows. 

Later, 

K


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 10 Nov 2012 05:58 PM 
Does anyone have a feel for how the smaller scales are trending? 

In HO the transition era is still a big market. New diesel locomotives, named passenger trains, and even a few steamers are always coming out. But there is also a move to present day with Gevos, SD70ACEs, and Amtrak suddenly becoming a lot more popular and easier to find models of.

In addition to our 1:22.5 G scale layout, I model Southern California around 1958 in HO scale. And I've had no trouble finding rolling stock. In fact I've recently been upgrading to the latest and much more detailed/road specific items. Including Athean Genesis F3s and F7s, and their new GP7. And Walthers new Hi-Level El Capitan. So no shortage of the classic era of trains in HO scale. Also many model vehicles have been released by Classic Metal Works and other manufacturers that fit a layout from the late 1940s to 1950s.

Here's an overview photo of our HO scale layout that shows various completed and still under construction areas:


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hartford products are made in the USA. The pricing is reasonable. If only they would start building some more product like what we're talking about here. Product would be more available as it wouldn't have to wait on other brands to be made before it's stuff, it wouldn't have to wait for a big enough order to fill a container and the shipping cost would be far less. Maybe we all need to start pestering the people at Hartford to open up their product line to some transition era trains. As for Hartford not having enough detail, there are plenty of cottage companies selling detail parts so that should not be a concern. I think you mean Hartland. Hartford made NG rolling stock craftsman kits and went to short kits (castings only - no wood supplied) years ago.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

My son, age 7, loves his HO trains, but seriously, locomotives are trending $100 skyward, and $30 and up for cars. One of the reasons I decided to go with Fn3 is simply because, at the time, the prices weren't much higher than On3 or even HOn3. Sure, you can get two HOn3 locomotives for the price of one Bachman 1:20.3 locomotive... Wait. Think about that... 

I'ld be willing to bet that 1:29 diesels, an RS3 for example, are priced comparably to the same thing in HO... 

Robert


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Kevin 

Many folks get into model trains wanting to run the types of trains they remember. You grew up near the end of the era of 40 ft box cars, ice reefers had already disappeared, and heavyweight passenger cars were only in MOW service. A guy who is now 40 years old was born after the formation of Amtrak in 1971. a GE U25B was already 12 years old. six axle power was the norm on most major railroads. To them the "transition era" is the beginning of double stacks, 60 ft mechanical reefers and RBOXes [ insulated beer cars], center-beam flats, SD-45s and SP Tunnel Motors. The hobby is moving forward just like the life experience of the primary buying population. 

I am old enough to remember CV 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s running through Amherst MA in 1953-55, as CV was transitioning into leased CN diesel power. The B&M had already pretty much dieselized at that point and I don't remember any B&M steam as a kid. When I moved to Shelburne VT the Rutland had already gone to RS-1s and RS-3s. But most of my younger friends are modeling the period that begins in the 1970s and 80s, because that is the trains they grew up with. 

I looked at the layouts at the Rockville MD Lions Club Train Show today. Most guys had modern trains running on the HO and N layouts, some older members were running steam. The 3 rail 0 guys had the biggest mix of locomotives and equipment. 

I think the demographic is changing and some of us "elder phlatulants" just don't see it as clearly as the younger folks.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I would say the time frame that is lacking in most scales is from 1960-1980's. In large scale some of the new releases have been more modern (past 20 years) but I look at them as potential kitbash projects to back date them. Granted it's hard to see a ~$200 90' autorack on sale, and be looking at how to back date the rack or flat to an earlier era. I would like to see manufacturers start to sell more parts instead of RTR. That way it would be easier for modelers to customize their rosters. If USA released a part such as a boxcar end, modelers might be not as shocked to cut apart a good model... 
Having said that the 1960-1980 era is lacking could be due to the age of the modelers. Older modelers either model all steam, or the transition era, and young modelers model what they've seen growing up (1980's- present). If I was to model something based upon what I grew up watching I too would be be in the 1990's-present era. But I've focused on the 1970-1972 time frame for various other reasons even though I wasn't alive during that time frame. 

Craig


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

I would argee with Craig.
We need more kitbashing parts







Now some of us are able to build locos and rolling stock from things availible, but it is really $$$








I've built several locos and it usually takes more than one loco to do it. My 4-8-2 took 3, yes Three steamers to build plus parts from a fourth. Why you ask ?? Because parts at that time were unavailible. It took (2) Aristo pacifics, an Aristo Mallet and some spare parts from some Bachman locos - Thanks guys to those who helped me out







#2523 was my first kitbash and it took 2nd best in show at ECLSTS 2006







But really though, that cost me roughly $2300 to build and I did sell off some of the things I did not use to bring the cost down to a bit under $2000, but that's out of most folks price range. The desiels I build were not quite as bad with the GP-35s needing (1) GP-30 and (1) GP-38 to combine. The GP-20s each took a GP-9, but needed hard to find Lionel GP-20 body parts. Now the SD-9 took (2) GP-9s, a pair of SD-45 trucks and body parts from a E-8. So that was 3 locos I had to buy to make 1 loco. See where I'm coming from ??? Alot of $$$ and alot of time also to build a project, but it can be fun too (when your not pullin' out your hair







).

Two problems causing a slow down in manufaturer's production of anything.
First, our economy sucks. Between several and I mean several presidents and a greedy housing market business - banks, loan personel, (How could you appove someone for a housing loan if they could NEVER pay it back ?!? I guess it was that big bonus you got for securing a loan huh yuppie







) and fighting wars where the politicians were in control, not the generals - go figure, Vietnam all over again. But anyway the point I'm trying to make is the economy is in a tail spin and it doesn't seem to matter to those who can do something about it.

Second, we don't have such a big sector of the RR modeling market. It costs more for G scale, yet HO it was said is starting to cost alot now too.
G scale was once the Lawyers and doctors scale due to cost, but it came down a bit or we rose up a bit in the late 90s- early 200s to be able (for most of us) to afford G scale. And hey, isn't it great to model trains outside ?!? No more being hemmed in a basement - yet I now am again, but have a bigger set up than I ever had with possibility of expanding outside too







But now with a sh*tty economy, all prices are going up again making G scale less affordable to most again.

I wonder about where our scale is going seeing less and less things produced each year. I am now in a position that I can buy some stuff, but there's not much out there that's produced that I like and that I haven't collected yet - remember too, I've been in G scale for about 17 years and traded off all but a few peices of my HO empire I build since being knee high to a grasshopper to get going in G scale. I may be able to kitbash some things together, but most folks can't or just don't want to. They are the ones really missing out. 

We have seen some cool pieces made over the last 10 years in the 1900-1970 SG modeling period, but it's all but ground to a sudden stop here in the last year or two. If the manufactures want me to give them lots of my $$$, then they'll have to start making things in my era. I'm not switching to or starting to collect either Modern or NG pieces. I just can't warm up to it. Yet I did buy a few pieces of NS stuff after we moved here so the grandkids can run & see what they see in their real outdoor world. But if they lose intrest, I'll sell most of it and paint or kitbash the rest of it. Also FRED and MARY don't exist in my world and every train has a caboose on it, Brakeman and conductors need a place on the train and the conductor don't ride in the loco with the engineer either. The Fireman does









Just another 2 cents worth...
Rocky


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By GN_Rocky on 11 Nov 2012 09:03 AM 
I would argee with Craig.
We need more kitbashing parts







Now some of us are able to build locos and rolling stock from things availible, but it is really $$$









Why not offer parts such as locomotive hood doors, grills, cabs, etc. In HO scale lots of companies make superdetailing parts (Cannon & Co, Details West, Detail Associates to name a few big names) that are common on lots of locomotives. I really would hate to cut up a perfectly good locomotive or car apart just to get 1 piece, but I'm beginning to think that that is the only way possible to make my own superdetailing parts. Cut apart a hood door, make a mold and cast copies for myself. I can't sell them, so it becomes a mute point. What this hobby needs I guess is a detail parts company in HO to make the investment in new moldings in 1/29. They have all the information so it would be a simple matter to upscale to 1/29. The lack of detail parts/kitbashing fodder makes me think about modeling in HO again. It's much easier to cut apart a $30 HO car, than a $90 large scale car...
On MLS we have quite a few modelers that enjoy bashing up perfectly good models









Craig


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I can add that I conversed with Canon & Co about 3 years ago.. they are busy enough just with their HO line of detail parts, that they do not have time to expand into G-scale. 

As Rocky points out it is costly to be creative at this level in the hobby, and have something on your layout that we cannot buy in a box.!! 

It does shock me at times...! I do have an easier time maybe than some do - opening a box and heading for the saw!! I have scratched & bashed since My childhood...sometimes it is hard to not cut up a car or loco. In the end even tho this stuff costs more than say HO does, it is a value thing to me. I feel I get more value from G-scale than HO, esp. in terms of SIZE!! 

morning guys!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I've always wondered, re: builder parts. 

With the sheer number of total turds and questionable QC products made by various manufacturers over the last 25 years, plus the stuff folks just plum wore out, you'd think there'd be more parts engines and incomplete cars floating about than there are. Where did they all go? 

Even my junkbox is mostly just odd bits of total junk at the moment.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 11 Nov 2012 11:47 AM 
One thing I've always wondered, re: builder parts. 

With the sheer number of total turds and questionable QC products made by various manufacturers over the last 25 years, plus the stuff folks just plum wore out, you'd think there'd be more parts engines and incomplete cars floating about than there are. Where did they all go? 

Even my junkbox is mostly just odd bits of total junk at the moment. 




I have often wondered about that too..
I go to a lot of train shows (my garden railroad and live steam clubs set up displays at trains shows all the time)
there are endless tables of cheap junked HO and O scale diesels and steam locos..
ancient Athearn and Tyco shells for $1 each..

but *nothing* at all like that in Large Scale! not a single shell to be found..but why?
I have a theory..I think its just because the large scale hobby is still too new!
everyone is still holding on to all their trains..
Grandpa with his old train collection hasn't died yet! 
the kids and grand-kids aren't yet able to sell his stuff at the garage sale for a few bucks..
supply is low, demand is still (relatively) high..we don't have 50 to 100 years worth of old junk cluttering up the hobby yet,
like we see in HO and O scale.. 
Large scale simply hasn't reached the "good supply of excess junk" phase yet..

Scot


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 10 Nov 2012 06:34 PM 
Hartford products are made in the USA. The pricing is reasonable. If only they would start building some more product like what we're talking about here. Product would be more available as it wouldn't have to wait on other brands to be made before it's stuff, it wouldn't have to wait for a big enough order to fill a container and the shipping cost would be far less. Maybe we all need to start pestering the people at Hartford to open up their product line to some transition era trains. As for Hartford not having enough detail, there are plenty of cottage companies selling detail parts so that should not be a concern. 

I think you mean Hartland. Hartford made NG rolling stock craftsman kits and went to short kits (castings only - no wood supplied) years ago. 

Yes Dwight, you are correct. Hartland is what I meant. Thanks for the correction.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 11 Nov 2012 11:47 AM 
One thing I've always wondered, re: builder parts. 

With the sheer number of total turds and questionable QC products made by various manufacturers over the last 25 years, plus the stuff folks just plum wore out, you'd think there'd be more parts engines and incomplete cars floating about than there are. Where did they all go? 

Even my junkbox is mostly just odd bits of total junk at the moment. 

Just like the thousands of Japanese motorcycles sold here in the states from the mid 60s through the late 70s.

Where did they all go? They're in garages covered up with junk because people thought they were junk and not worth anything. Now they are forgotten.

As for old broken trains, most people just stick them to the side. Trying to sell them cost time and money. In many cases the postage cost as much as the piece will sell for.

I've got a Big Hauler I took a part to use some part on another project. I also have a Bachmann 2-4-2 with stripped gears. I've had it for years. So what is it worth with a stripped gear? $10.00 maybe $15.00? Just not a priority, one way or the other. I took parts to Marty's to sell and didn't sell a single pc.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i don't think it is largescale-specific. 
if tools, toys or household articles - we in the western world became too lazy to work and outsourced to asia. and now we got what we wanted: asian quality for western money.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

sent you a note - via back channels,.. Randy!! 

Dirk


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## NorthwestGarrattGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

i know this thread is almost 10 years old but this is even more relavent now


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## Exador (Jan 24, 2020)

I enjoy modeling NG because I can get away with more "Fantasy" Modeling. The NG roads built more inhouse, often cannibalizing unique items. And, it's possible to work in wood and brass effectively with common tools. Building a circus train also have me a chance to do some image painting which took me out of my comfort zone. That brings me to my last point. I'm hoping my building keeps me sharp for longer. I'm very comfortable with getting older but the thought of getting duller is kind of terrifying. When I model I'm 12 again.


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