# Planning an elevated garden railway



## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

I am in the planning stages of building a small garden railway. I have gone through a number of designs and have pretty much settled on this one. Though I have considered just an elevated operating track I decided that I want it to blend into the garden much as in Neil Ramsey's railway which is what inspired this design.

Our garden is very small, flat and I have limited space for the railway. The railway will be primarily for 7/8 scale live steam and I want it elevated with track height about 30"-36". I decided on building it much like an indoor train layout but with soil in boxes 6"-8" deep to hold plants, roadbed, buildings, etc The framework will be pressure treat lumber with cement board. I am considering using some trex type boards for the sides of the soil boxes. The track work will be code 250 rail with #4 switches and 5' minimum radius with locos being lmited to short wheel base 0-6-0 or 0-4-0.

I am wondering if anyone else has built using this soil box scheme? Will the track stay put in fine roadbed sand/gravel? Am I asking for trouble in our zone 5 climate?

This is all new to me and I am wondering if I am missing any issues?




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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

OK, how do I get the pictures to show?


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

OK wrong code, now there is a picture!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

SpinCaster

You might get some ideas from what Richard Smith has done on his Port Orford Coast RR, feel free to download a copy of the file if you desire.

Richard Smith's - Port Orford Coast RR (PDF 25MB)[/b]


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Posted By SteveC on 08 May 2012 06:20 AM 
SpinCaster

You might get some ideas from what Richard Smith has done on his Port Orford Coast RR, feel free to download a copy of the file if you desire.

Richard Smith's - Port Orford Coast RR (PDF 25MB)[/b]



Steve,

Thanks, the concept is exactly what I had in mind only quite a bit smaller. 

Richards railroad is outstanding! My wife is from "Orygun" and I lived in the West for a number of years. That railroad has caught the flavor of the West very well indeed! Richard's buildings are beautiful! Richard is lucky to have such a nice natural backdrop of trees. The lumber he used is very nice and not something we find here easily much less at affordable prices. 

Climate is probably the biggest issue I face and I want plants to grow and thus the soil has to be a lot deeper. I assume my benchwork will move due to freeze/thaw cycles in winter and I may need to occassionaly adjust track elevation/alignment and bench elevation/alignment. How much movement is the one thing I don't have a clue about. To adjust track elevation I can't fix the track to a sub bed. I'm also concerned about the ballast holding the track in place.

Jack


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Do not use cement board as part of the track foundation. Even if coated with sealer, cement board that is buried will absorb moisture and will delaminate and loose structural strength. 
It sure would not continue to support your track foundation material. It would also require much more support to hold the soil. I built mine raised using Richard Smith's system and it has held up well for me. We have an Operations Special Interest Group in the local club and my layout is popular because of the height....


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Nick, 

Thanks for your reply! I'm very interested in your track! Do you have pictures or a web site? 

How deep is your bed, are you growing plants in it? What is the aprox height of your track level? What fabric did you use? Do you have penetrating frost in the ground and heavy 2'-3' heavy snow? Steve King swears by "durock" (which I understand is escentially fiberglass reinforced cement) and uses it on his elevated track. Do you know someone who used cement board and had problems? 

I will have to look into the cost of wire mesh and fabric. The drainage factor might be good around here. 

Jack


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack

Regarding the plants, I would think that having them on an elevated layout you'd have increased problems in freezing weather with the plants surviving. If I remember correctly Richard was at one time thinking about building places in the layout where potted plants could be inserted and then if the weather changed enough the plants could be removed and temporarily stored indoors.

Regarding tying the track down hard to the sub-base, I know that some of the members that live in Colorado and use cement ribbons for the sub-roadbed use iron tie wire (i.e. like that used in tying rebar together) and screws to provide limited movement of the track, maybe that might also work for your circumstance.

Regarding the frost heave, that depends a great deal on your actual local soil conditions. I know that some of the members that live in Canada and other northern areas of the U.S. use the pre-cast concrete pier blocks used for building floating wood decks (see below image). Instead of driving posts of one kind or another, or digging holes and pouring concrete piers. It seems to work for them.










Just some thoughts.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Steve, 

I'm not all that worried about plants freezing. We have plants that survive our zone 5/6 climate and the occassional deep frost line. I probably should check with a garden center to make sure though. 

I want to be able to adjust the track height so I don't want to secure it to any base other than the ties keying in the ballast. 

Pier blocks pretty much in comon use on simple raised tracks like the late Ron Brown's track. 

Jack


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## LoxahatcheeRR (Apr 30, 2012)

Are your “squares” on the graph paper at 1 foot? I like the layout design.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Posted By LoxahatcheeRR on 08 May 2012 04:12 PM 
Are your “squares” on the graph paper at 1 foot? I like the layout design.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Posted By spincaster on 08 May 2012 07:03 PM 
Posted By LoxahatcheeRR on 08 May 2012 04:12 PM 
Are your “squares” on the graph paper at 1 foot? I like the layout design.

Thanks! Yes, the squares are 1'. It is a small track designed for both running and for photography.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Latest revision of the plan revised to use Richard Smith's type of benchwork

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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

You might consider this a practical alternative construction method. Prefabricated Roadbed Modules; 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/121791/afv/topic/Default.aspx>49371


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

As you look at the photos the jig that Steve made to build curved sections may seem complicated to make. I have an way to make it fairly simply. If you or a friend know any CAD great but not necessary. Once you have the cad drawing you take it to a cad printer (yellow pages), they print it 1:1 - it will e a long printout. email me and I'll do the drawing for you, include your phone # and I'll call you. 

The concept is to draw a circle in CAD and print a section of it 1:1, full size. Tape/tack the 1:1 printout to a 4x8 plywood or mdf sheet. Put blocks in place shown in Steve's photo. You have your build jig. 

The detail, the cad circle is drawn has a center line with an inner and outer line 1/2 deck width (24" deck, 12" from center line. Mark a points on center line the distance apart you want the cross pieces, say 18" apart. Draw a line from circle center point through each point on the center line. These lines are the template for placing cross pieces and where you will place the blocks you see in Steve's photo. 

I think you could email Steve for help as well. He was very helpful and patient with me. 

Admittedly I am an evangelist for the construction method. It's the best I've cme across in must be 15yrs. Never been a fan of 2x6+ construction. Seems like overkill given the load requirems. With Steve's method if you want greater load carrying strength just increase the thickness or the side members, his are 5/8 I think. I am using a solid deck covered in roofing mtl vs Steve's ballast You can build everything Richard has with, I believe, a lot less work & cost. Personally, I'm having my lumber yard cut all the plywood sheets into 8" wide strips - it' s more efficient. ;-)) 

My $.02


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve posted a second thread with photo details of how he constructed the ballast deck. 

A porous deck for the DC&M; 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/9/aft/121805/afv/topic/Default.aspx>41134 

Disclaimer; I have no financial interest in this.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Chris, 

Being in Western NY with a rough climate I need something a bit more robust/durable/simple and want most of the sections to be deep boxes for soil/plants. If all I wanted was a track and ballast Seve's method might be a possibility. 

Steve's method of laminating is pretty straightforward which I can say from similar experience in boatbuilding. I do a lot with CAD/CAM/CNC but in some instances simpler ways work better. To layout the curve on plywood one can simply determine cartisian coordinates and transfer then to plywood with a square.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve lives in Montana. 

Maybe where we differ on simplicity of construction is I'm running live steam.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Hi Chris, 

Like yourself, I'm only interested in live steam! I don't do electric. Waiting for an Accucraft 7/8 scale Hunslet and have a very meager start on building a Festiniog Rly "The Princess" which is an 0-4-0 tank/tender loco. Though I became interested in live steam as a child, I became interested in G1 back when (1979?) Marc H was writing Small Scale LS column for LS before GR was published. Had/ran a few early Aster locos. Now I am strictly interested in 7/8 scale. Once I have a track built I just want to spend some spare time building locos and rolling stock. 

I have lived in Idaho and there is a lot of difference in climate conditions between east and west. I found the climate in the West a lot nicer and more forgiving.  That being said I'm not keen on land slides, avlanches, ash from volcanos, etc. We would live in Washington state or NW Orygun if we could afford it. Big thing here is humidity and wet along with freeze/thaw cycles. We live a couple of blocks away from Lake Ontario and get lake effect snow. Weather takes a much bigger toll on stuff here. Ice and rot are big issues.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm really looking forward to Accucraft UK's 7/8s Hunslet too. I was hoping to see it at Diamondhead. Ian brought a few of his upcoming locos but not the Hunslet. I'm biding my time looking for everything 7/8's the world has to offer. I've checked with a couple sources about a cab kit but so far no one is thinking that far ahead. 

Believe me I understand your situation. I grew up in Denver which is why I left.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

WHOA!! 

Using Chris Scott and "grew up" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Same goes for several others, including yours truly. 

Spincaster, based on what Tom Bowdler and others in the Rochester area have described as the local environment, I think a robust form of Richard Smith's construction [to carry the extra weight of more plantings and soil depth] would work. 

Just my opinion, having found many, many ways NOT to build an elevated layout over the last 16 years.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Posted By Chris Scott on 09 May 2012 02:40 PM 
I'm really looking forward to Accucraft UK's 7/8s Hunslet too. I was hoping to see it at Diamondhead. Ian brought a few of his upcoming locos but not the Hunslet. I'm biding my time looking for everything 7/8's the world has to offer. I've checked with a couple sources about a cab kit but so far no one is thinking that far ahead. 

Believe me I understand your situation. I grew up in Denver which is why I left.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Posted By Chris Scott on 09 May 2012 02:40 PM 
I'm really looking forward to Accucraft UK's 7/8s Hunslet too. I was hoping to see it at Diamondhead. Ian brought a few of his upcoming locos but not the Hunslet. I'm biding my time looking for everything 7/8's the world has to offer. I've checked with a couple sources about a cab kit but so far no one is thinking that far ahead. 

Believe me I understand your situation. I grew up in Denver which is why I left. 

Why a cab on a Large Quarry class Hunslet?


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

I do have some pics, I will post later on this forum with some. I followed Richards system pretty closely, using 2x4 frames, then hardware cloth and the gray fiberglass type weedblock. The track is mostly mounted on 1x2 PVC molding ladder foundation, with leaves me about 1.5 inches for soil, gravel, etc. The track is then attached to blocks that fit in between the ladder sides so it can flex. 


The plantings  are mostly moss(its cheap) and steppables. My yard is very shady in full summer so the plantings are limited. I did run drip irrigation to make up for the shallow soil. Tables are about 30 inches above the ground. Table legs mostly go into post blocks as long freezes are not a factor here. 

However, rain is a factor and this sytem drains nicely. We do get about 1 to 2 inches of snow each year, I have had 14 inches on the track and no problems. I used hardibacker on a couple of yard sections and ending up taking it out because it was failing, loosing strength and growing mold. I also have found that Hardibacker will deteriorate when in contact with the soil or continued damp condition, like having ballast on it which retains precipitation. 

For installing the hardware cloth an air powered nailer/stapler is nice to have and couple that with a cut off tool to cut the wire and it is much easier.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Nick, 

Oh how I love your climate!!!!!!! I remember the climate in Idyho lower elevations being similar. Here we often get a couple of inches a few times a day! Average annual snowfall here is 95 inches (compared to your 2" average) and that doesn't take into acount our lake side micro climate which often gets a lot more. My brick patio heaves aboout 2 inches every winter even though it is on proper gravel and fines base. Luckily it goes back down in april. 

I look forward to your pictures! I'm designing benchwork and once I have a bill of materials I can see if I can afford it! 

Your air stapler is a good idea and I will haveto see if I can rent one. 

Jack


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By spincaster on 09 May 2012 09:05 PM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 09 May 2012 02:40 PM 
I'm really looking forward to Accucraft UK's 7/8s Hunslet too. I was hoping to see it at Diamondhead. Ian brought a few of his upcoming locos but not the Hunslet. I'm biding my time looking for everything 7/8's the world has to offer. I've checked with a couple sources about a cab kit but so far no one is thinking that far ahead. 

Believe me I understand your situation. I grew up in Denver which is why I left. 

Why a cab on a Large Quarry class Hunslet? 
There were/are cab-less and cab Quarry Hunslet. Granted Ian's prototype, Hugh Napier, is cab-less but I think there is enough artistic licence and variety of Hunselts built to accommodate a cab.


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Chris, 

The Hunslet's with a cab are the main line Hunslets with big slanted cylinders. They are cool. Do you belong to the 16mm Association? 

Jack


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Finally posting some pics of construction. The table has been built, the ladder foundation is going down with track on top, leaves about 1 1/2 icnhes for rock, soil, etc


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Nick, 

Thanks for posting the pictures! Love the light snow scene which looks so realistic! 

I plan on using Richards system but won't be using the ladder foundation since I want to be able to adjust tracks in the ballast as needed due to ground movement each spring. Adjusting track in ballast is easier than adjusting the framework on the ground. I'm also looking at concrete blocks rather than legs to elevate the framework to the desired 30". Because I model in 7/8 scale my ties are 5/8"wide, 7/16" deep and 4" long and spaced about 1-1/2". 

Once I have a cad drawing of a typical section I'll post it. 

Regards, 

Jack


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By spincaster on 10 May 2012 09:32 AM 
Chris, 

The Hunslet's with a cab are the main line Hunslets with big slanted cylinders. They are cool. Do you belong to the 16mm Association? 

Jack 
Jack:
I looked through the Hunslet Engineering website locomotive history and found shunters with and without cabs. I did not read every description but I assume a very small 0-4-0 with a cab would be a shunter and not mainline. No?


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## spincaster (Mar 10, 2012)

Chris, 

If you are spending the "do re' me" on the Hunslet you might want to buy the Quarry Hunslet book from Oakwood Press. VERY nice book explaining more than you want to know about quarry Hunslets. On the Penrhyn, the big Hunslets with cabs were used to run from the Red Lion level down to Port Penrhyn hauling slates in slate wagons. The cabless quarry Hunslets were used to haul unprocessed slate and rubbish (waste stone) in the quarry. 90% of a quarry Hunslets work was hauling rubbish to the "tipps" where the rubbish was dumped. Another great book, now out of print, is the "Slate Quarry Album" by Gordon and Ann Hatherill. The SQA gives a nice overview of Welsh slate quarry operations including the railways. You can probably still find it if you look a bit in google. 

I am hoping that Accucraft someday comes out with a mainline Hunslet. 

Jack


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