# To-Be-Named Railway Build Thread



## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

So five months ago I learned that the space I was going to use for a HO layout was going to be used for "other things". As a result I've been given permi..., I mean it's been agreed, that I can use 2/3rds of the backyard and side yard to do a garden railway instead. Before this change I knew almost nothing of garden railways except seeing some layouts at train shows, model shops, and the layout in Germany at EPCOT. I have a lot to learn but since I've learned quite a bit so far from others experiences and postings I think it's worthwhile to post my build progress and ideas here so others in my current position in the future can possibly learn from some of my choices, good or bad.

I've sold most of my HO collection that I've had for 25 years and have now purchased 26 locomotives and 137 rolling stock in G scale. I did this because I felt the choice of selection in G scale locomotives and rolling stock were more limited than HO and I'm open to what theme I model so I figured I'd start by buying most everything I'd be using and let that determine what sort of railway can come out of those items.

I've joined a local club as well and spent hundreds of hours researching and trying to get a good handle on what's in store for me. I expect the project to take nearly a year of design work and years of work to "finish". My only goal is to put stakes and rope out where the track will be by May 1st and begin working on adjusting any landscaping that will be needed by June.

I spent some time measuring and mapping out my backyard and underlaying a scaled satellite image from google of the yard so I can come up with various ideas for a layout. In HO I had about 800sqft to work with to do docks, mountains, a large train yard and roundhouse, and lots of complexity which I find fun to design, build, and operate. In G scale I'm finding that this becomes harder to do due to space limitations of my yard and environmental issues for electronics.

Complexity, or automated G scale railways, seems to be an undeveloped area because of a few factors. Elements of being outdoors makes the use of some equipment such as sensors and other electronics impossible or difficult to run problem free for dozens of years. DCC outdoors seems potentially unreliable and for what I have in mind this could be a problem. DCC also seems problematic in locating consists to tight measurements which will be needed for what I want to do.

I come from the software industry and have written some AI programs, though mainly back in college, but I do have an end goal of running at least 6 consists at once with no human interaction. The software would maintain scheduling for passenger trains to make stops at stations at certain times, move coal and other freight consists between certain points, switch trains onto sidings for other trains to pass, switch out other consists in a train shed and make the railroad seem 'alive'. This has put me down a path of considering implementing embedded wifi linux devices in the locomotives or trialing cars with rfid readers that read $.50 sensors places every foot or so under the track so the software will know within a foot or less of accuracy where each consist is. 

I've considered using aristocraft revolution as it uses Zigbee which is an open standard for wireless communication which I happen to have lucked out and know quite a bit about already. However, I needed a way to send rfid information back to a computer which a revolution receiver may not have the circuitry for, but I did successfully use my laptop with a zigbee usb radio card to control an aristocraft revolution receiver/locomotive. If only I could get it to pass serial data back over the wireless data connection I could just piggy back off the revolution receiver but I have yet to isolate any chip/data bus that can an rfid reader to connect to, though I think I did determine the chipset and software needed to read and write the rom though this would likely involve a bit more time to do than just creating my own solution with embedded linux devices. 

With smart phones, tablets, and system on chip (SoC) being so numerous now the prices of them have dropped. I've been looking at a few small embedded platforms with wifi and two usb port which is all I would need to communicate, pass rfid data, and connect to a servo controller that would operate the train, possibly using an RCS or other servo control unit.

There's also a question in the back of my mind that I could over complicate things and not have enough time to enjoy the layout. Automated control will likely stay a goal for sometime, but I want a layout that can function as a 'turn on and run', be complex enough to support club runs and also give the AI software something to really chomp at and watch how it learns and decides to oporate a railway.

Primary Road Name Locomotives that will be used to determine railway theme:
1 UP Dash-9
3 UP SD-45
2 UP U25-B
1 UP RS-3
1 Rio Grande SD-70
1 Rio Grand U25-B
1 Rio Grand FA-1
1 BNSF SD-45
4 Sante Fe FA-1 (two will be repainted teal and purple for the wife, paint scheme and road name yet to be given by the wife)

Other Road Name Locomotives for pass through consists outside of railroad theme.
2 Pennysylvania FA-1
1 Lehigh Valley FA-1
1 B&O FA-1
1 Chessapeak U25-B
1 Newport U25-B
2 Bachman ten-whellers (will be kit bashed into a Walter E Disney)
1 C.K. Holliday (Hartland, used to be a Lilly Belle)
1 Mickey & Donald Handkart

Rolling Stock: (about 40 Aristo, 60 Bachmann, rest misc manufacturers and vintage cars)
27 Box cars
12 Refers cars
10 Stock cars
16 Tanker cars
15 Flatbed cars
6 Lowboy cars
7 Coal (need 30-40 more, but need unique road numbers)
18 Gondola cars
17 Passenger (5 will be repainted into Santa Fe & Disneyland style, rest will be repainted teal and purple for wifes passenger train)
4 Roadrailers
3 Cabooses
1 Snow plow

Required features of railway:
Train Shed that can hold 150+ cars, 25+ locomotives
Lots of bridges & tressle work
1+ passenger stations
Tunnels
Mountains
Removable bridges in some areas (will cover why later)
Buildings and themeing work (likely German and/or Disney related, I may try to model a working Big Thunder or Matterhorn attractions years in the future. 
Bridge over waterfall
Working signals


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow, sounds like you are off to a good start!  
with your choice of motive power, clearly you will be building a "standard gauge" 1/29 scale railroad.. 
biggest design concern right from the start, IMO..use the BIGGEST curves possible! 
For those diesels, 8 foot diameter is the *absolute* minimum..but that is still really tight.. 
I would consider 15 foot diameter the minimum, if you can..and "the wider the better".. 

how big is the space for your railroad? what size curves are you looking to build? 
to me, that should be the first thing to "nail down"..before you even begin designing a track plan.. 

Scot


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've spent about 4 years working on the back yard. I've done mostly all the work myself, which means it isn't perfect but I learned a lot and had fun doing it. The pond is 3000 gallons, 4.5' deep and all dug by hand. It took 3 years to finish because of the massive amount of research, plumbing, and filtering (most filtering is under the trex deck which lifts up to provide access). I was going to do cement curbing this summer and put bark in the flower beds but this was put on hold because of the layout construction but the yard is otherwise finished. 

Here is the view into the back yard where the railway will be. There will be a 4' tall fence that goes from the fence on the left by the rock wall to right side/corner of the house nearest the camera) that blocks the railway and pond from kids getting back in there for minor safety of the kids and fish/layout.











Another photo closer to the pond










Looking down the side yard. I am hoping to get one track to run on the base side of the AC units that runs into the train shed. There's about 11" of space behind the AC units. The train shed will also likely end up against the house and floating above the window wells. The train shed will only be about 12" wide, enough to get 2 tracks side by side and I'm expecting to have 4 levels in the train shed. 











Views from the "covered patio" (which isn't covered yet, I'll build a wood pergola one of these next summers. This is likely about where I'll sit to control/watch the layout so I provided views of what I'll see to help visualize what I'll see from this position.


















Last is a view of the fence/waterfall up top as I'd like to have a line that goes over the waterfall. I'm still in the imagining stages for how to do this line as grade to the waterfall height is likely too great so it may be on a small double loopback track that's not connected to the mainlines that will be on the ground level.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here is a drawing of the yard from above. The scale is 10 pixels = 1ft. I used a combination of an image from google maps and measurements down to the inch that I measured and recreated the layout in an image. I've printed off dozens of these to hand draw out layout ideas. 










Here is one very simply idea, no sidings or real complexity but I think the two mainline paths could be one potential choice for the railway. 









I have very little (ok, none at all) experience with designing G scale layouts so if anyone wants to take a shot at come up with ideas I would really be interested in what others would do if they had this space to work with. The only thing is there would need to be a gate on the future 4' tall fence shown in the diagram and either by using elevated bridges/platforms to walk on or with raising/lowering train bridges, people would need to walk through the yard and side yard. 

Edit: For people who don't want to count pixels. the side yard is 9'6" wide and the distance between the pond wall and the house is 9'9" and the distance between the house and rock wall along the back of the lot (left side of the image) is 22'. The back side of the house (left side of the house in the image) is 60' long. Window wells are about 5'8" wide and stick out 3'1" from the house.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By Scottychaos on 22 Oct 2011 11:15 AM 
Wow, sounds like you are off to a good start!  
with your choice of motive power, clearly you will be building a "standard gauge" 1/29 scale railroad.. 
biggest design concern right from the start, IMO..use the BIGGEST curves possible! 
For those diesels, 8 foot diameter is the *absolute* minimum..but that is still really tight.. 
I would consider 15 foot diameter the minimum, if you can..and "the wider the better".. 

how big is the space for your railroad? what size curves are you looking to build? 
to me, that should be the first thing to "nail down"..before you even begin designing a track plan.. 

Scot The minimum curve will be 9', and that's only on the sideyard. I hope to stick to about 12'-15' radius for most other curves. 

I'm hoping to run most consists with 8-30 cars, mainly double headed with about 20 cars. One fun aspect of the AI will be giving it all sorts of various sized trains and watching it try to run them. Imagine an 80 car train rolling through that is longer than most sidings and having 10 trains on the track. Could be interesting to watch the software back up trains into various sidings and queue smaller ones up in areas to let the longer consist go by.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

interesting space! 
its tight..but there is room for a cool railroad in there! 

some curves on your drawing are significantly tighter than 8 or 9-foot diameter however..unfortunately those wont work.. 
for example, on your drawing, the curve right after the train shed, heading toward the patio, thats about a 4-foot diameter curve on your drawing! 
thats far too tight for your diesels.. 

You will probably have to end up making your track plan with 8-foot diameter as the absolute minimum, use that only where you must, 
then have wider curves where the space allows.. 

My first thought looking at your trackplan is "way too much track".. 
Im afraid you are trying to cram in more track than your space can realistically handle.. 

If you were running only 0-4-0 steam locomotives and tiny freight cars, your plan might work.. 
and you could use 4-foot diameter curves.. 
but not with 1/29 scale diesels.. 

I would use your basic idea, but just have a single mainline around the whole yard.. 
the area where you have "train shed" could be a staging yard..and that same narrow side yard could just be "functional" and not scenic.. 
use that narrow side yard just for the railroad yard, extra tracks, and the tight 8-foot diameter turnaround.. 

Scot


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow you have a very ambitious plan there and you have put alot of thought into it but.... I agree with others that you might not have the room for the large radius curves you will need for the modern equipment you will be running. It can be done but after testing mock up of a 33" long passenger train around my RR the other day i decided that such a long passenger car would look ridiculous going over my 5' the 8' and even the 10' diameter curves I have. Too much overhang just doesn't look right and screams "TOY TRAIN". Another issue you might experience is having to step over all that track in your plan. The first time someone steps over and accidently kicks your train you will not be happy or steps on a rail and bends and causes derailments.. Not good. 
If it were my space to fit a RR into I would design what is called a variation on a dogbone layout. Have the main hug the fence behind the patio, firepit and pond then at the bottom of the diagram have a large diameter graceful curve that will turn the train back towards the front of the pond then cut back to get behind the fire pit and patio, run the length of the fence to the back corner of the house and fit the largest radius curve in there as well. From that back corner you could have lots of fun by branching off into a large yard to hold your fleet and even better would be a run through yard which you could create by cutting across at the train shed spot. 
You could also have branch lines, stations and sidings along the main to drop offand pick up cars. 
I think what makes a for a nice and fun RR is the operation factor. Too much maintenance leaves not enough time for train running. A continous run is better than point to point. Bridges, trestles, tunnels, etc add interest and if you can make the train disappear from view that adds mystery. Trains do need a purpose so if you have a large storage yard at one end you should have places along the main to switch cars out to industries etc. By keeping your layout simple you will be able to get it up and running quicker and have more fun running trains then just planning and possibly losing interest. 
I have nearly 500' of track and I can run 4 trains at once from the same power source and it can get hairy sometimes which can be fun. You will also need to watch your grades if you are planning on running long trains. Here is a link to a video of my RR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spS4aTS5nwo It is in a space nearly 100' long by 30' at its widest. 
Happy RRing and keep us posted as to your ideas and progress. 
Todd


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon,
here is what popped into my head for your site:











just an idea!
along the pond/firepit/patio you could have nice gently serpentine curves, which would look really nice..

(they could be much smoother curves than on my crude drawing! 

With this plan, you can only run two trains at a time though..one on the "mainline" and another on the "inner loop" inside the "big return loop"

although your mainline is long enough that you could probably have two trains at a time on it!
you could also add a second circle inside the 8-foot diameter return loop..although it would have to be 6-foot diameter or so,
too tight for your diesels, but you could get a small steam loco for it! 
then technically you could run four trains at the same time if you really wanted to..although I would probably stick with only one on the mainline..


Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, DCC works outside just fine, and there are many more products that will assist you in automation and train location. Look at JMRI, many people are using it. If you want to have the best setup, use the transponding system that is out from Digitrax, or look at the upcoming additions from Lenz, Zimo, et. al. 

Many people do what you want with DCC... 

Regards, Greg


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I really liked your video Todd, I wish I had a mature yard like that and the width, you did some really nice things that I wish I had the space for. My yard I think will be quite plain for about ten years. There are no trees planted yet and I probably will stick to some pine trees and maybe one maple as with a pond, leaves can be issues so between the pond and the layout I think I'll stick to trees that don't drop things too far outside of the base just to keep maintenance down in the yard. I'll probably do some ivy and other creeping things to cover the fence or hang from the wood pergola. 

I need to find another way to draw curves, the way I was doing it didn't produce smooth curves and some drew tighter than they would actually be as you all saw. I'm really impressed with the layout you drew Scot. My track will be raised about 2"-6" above ground level, similar to how full scale road beds are raised to keep grade changes minimal. If I need to I'll place walking bridges over sections of track where people could step on track or trains. The track will be laser leveled and kept at 0 slope in almost all places and no greater than .5% grade anywhere else so I can run the long trains. 

I'll take a look at the transponder system from Digitrax, I looked through what they had but didn't see anything that did location analysis for battery operation. I did look at JMRI but because it was DCC based and I wanted to run mostly battery, even the air wire system to do most DCC commands appeared to be the best option but then you lose the timing sync to locate trains on the track. I'll try to look for some write-ups about using dcc and timing on G scale. If there's a good solution out there for battery that would save me time. I'll likely end up waiting until next spring at the earliest to buy the control equipment for the engines, just in case the system I'm wanting comes out. Also so prices drop on some of these embedded wifi linux devices. I could do all the software and design work on a pc and then just load up an SD card with Linux and other software to control an ESC and other circuits and then duplicate that install for each train or trailing car when the time comes. 

It's 2am so I'll probably call it a night but tomorrow I'll take some 8' and 10' curves out tomorrow and see how they work in various areas of the yard. I thought I had tried the 10' near the train shed corner of the house and it curved around and fit nicely up against the window well but maybe I was using my 8' curves. If I can get away with only one 8' (well, 9') in that back corner of the side yard that of course would be ideal. 

I do enjoy designing and problem solving as much as building. The pond as an example could have been built quicker and with much less design work but I had fun learning and trying various things, and it gave me a good reason to get outside on the weekends and a better sense of reward when it was done with more thought. Also cross you fingers that I can find a better way to draw track on the image. Maybe I can just create various diameter circles on the picture that I know are to scale and 'cut and paste' sections of those circles to get curves that are the correct radius when I draw out ideas.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Brandon. I really like your pond. If you spend some time on youtube you will see lots of interesting videos of RRs. no 2 are the same and they will give you lots of ideas. I have a few more on there just look under Capecodtraintodd to see them. I have another where my Heisler makes a run down to the wood pile through the snow and brings some logs all the way back and into the house to the woodstove. I use a Aristo train engineer control so I can walk around and throw switches by hand and meet the train down back like I did in the video to load veggies. I think using DCC like guys have suggested will satisfy your desire for electronics and individual train control. I like Scottychaos diagram but I think I would add a lift out section at the corner of the train yard closest to the corner of the house by the covered patio. It is a long way to back a train into and out of vs having a single lift out bridged section to allow a run thru ladder yard. My other concern is there is still alot of track ot be stepped over when it comes time to walk around doing maintenance, cutting grass or just a visitor following a train. 
My RR was a real challenge due to the slope of the land and trying to keep the grade under 2.5% but also once conquered the elevation changes make for an interesting run. I had lots of plans and designs but it wasn't until I started laying down track that I found hidden problems that would affect operations. 
You are in a very exciting stage of model RRing and one of my favorites. I think once you start laying track your plans will change and get better and better. 
Good luck.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand your desire to go battery power, and won't mention DCC again, but if you are putting track sensors all over the layout to locate trains, you will be doing a bunch of wiring anyway. One thing nice about a constant track power plan, is you have a ready-made power bus everywhere. Track power with the data on the track keeps cost down because your communication network is right there also. 

Are you also going to use wireless signals? Will they be battery powered? 

The simplest detection schemes use a small resistance across the wheels of cars, you don't need track power for that, but you do need power conduction along the rails. 

I'll be interested in what you come up with, the rfid tags are interesting, but sensors at $50 will add up quick unless you are only doing a few. 20 sensors is $1,000 by my math. 

Regards, Greg


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Todd,

Great videos on YouTube. So many great ideas, I'll probably be adding and changing ideas all winter and until all the track is finally laid down next year. I did have a desire to have a line that goes over the waterfall connected to the rest of the layout but after measuring the slope, reading things online about problems at even 1% for long trains and learning that even a straight 2.75% slope would be problematic I've backed away from that idea. I have about 300' feet of track setup in my basement including all sorts of S bends and half circles of 8', 10' and 12' curved track that also goes up and down elevations, I wanted to test and learn the various pit falls I could encounter outside best I could during the design stage. I've changed the test elevations all over from .5% to 5% and at one point or another and I thought I could overcome the 2.75% slope with 2-4 locomotives in the consists but after testing in the basement I realized that multiple engines can help for pulling power but the problem is not the engine power but couplers and the way the cars pull on each other. I could come up with combinations of cars that worked well with 8' diameter S bends in the center of two 8' diameter quarter turns of 3% slope but I wouldn't want to have to carefully select cars to group together and always be cautious for the first 10 loops to make sure nothing goes wrong every time I started a new consist which is why I've scrapped the high slope run over the waterfall for now in favor of no slope or less than .5% over the entire layout. 


There's a railroad meet in less than a month and I'll be there at least two days and hopefully I can see some complex DCC layouts there to see how it works in person and see if it will work well enough to fit most of my needs. I'm not against DCC, so far though it appeared like it may not work for battery too well and for the cost of air wire or other solutions I could possibly create my own control system that gave me exactly what I needed for close to the same price of about $150/consist.



Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Oct 2011 11:10 AM I understand your desire to go battery power, and won't mention DCC again, but if you are putting track sensors all over the layout to locate trains, you will be doing a bunch of wiring anyway. One thing nice about a constant track power plan, is you have a ready-made power bus everywhere. Track power with the data on the track keeps cost down because your communication network is right there also. 


Are you also going to use wireless signals? Will they be battery powered? 

The simplest detection schemes use a small resistance across the wheels of cars, you don't need track power for that, but you do need power conduction along the rails. 

I'll be interested in what you come up with, the rfid tags are interesting, but sensors at $50 will add up quick unless you are only doing a few. 20 sensors is $1,000 by my math. 
You're fine to mention DCC still, maybe I'm stubborn at times so just yell at me if you need to. DCC does seem very powerful and amazing. Some local club guys said a few had done air wire and DCC but all switched out because of problems in favor of the Revolution system but as with most things millage varies and the quirks of dcc and air wire (or other solutions) could still be the best choice. 


I'm still not 100% sold on battery. Lilo, lifo, lion, are all coming down in prices (I fly RC planes as well and have used all of these for about 7 years). There are cons to batteries and endless running on track power is a big pro in some circumstances. I do like the idea of running battery if I don't want to clean the track that day but I do know the main line(s) will be powered for others but I probably want to keep things simple and avoid switching for reversing loops and leave that functionality to battery (probably).


The nice thing about RFID is those sensors need no power. The RFID reader needs to come within about 4" of the sensors to read it and if I'm running battery or track power to the locomotives or trailing car this means I don't have to do any more complex sensor wiring like IR, load sensing, or other methods that would require running wires around the track.

For signaling I'm not sure what I'll do yet. If a computer is running it then I'll probably run a half dozen cat 5 lines around the track in conduit for "future use" before I lay track. I do like the idea of using power lines like full scale but they could quite easily be damaged. If it takes me 3-5 years to do signaling there could be a chance that we could see circuitry in signals that allows you to run all signals off of 4 wires total (2 power 2 data communication) so I'll probably run enough cat 5 to run all the signals I need plus some spares just in case. 1000' of cat 5 runs about $60 so that's pretty minor for 'just in case'.


I did look into resistance over wheels but I read some people having problems at times with some wheels types, grease, or other items as well as if the last few cars weren't resistance wheels and blocked a switch or something it could have a bad effect on an automated railway. With RFID I just have to know the length forward and behind the rfid reader (pretty easy to measure) and I'd know within 6" of the exact front and back of a train which could give me a lot of control for different functionality. 


I have a source for RFID readers already, for the rfid chip and board with USB they run $32. Each RFID sensor is $.37. I would only need 1 RFID reader per consist. This means I could actually just have one car per consist with the RFID reader in it and embedded linux device with wifi relaying the position of the consist and still have locomotives with revolutions in them and controlled from the computer. The receiver to run the locomotive(s) wouldn't _have_ to be connected to the RFID reader 'system' either but being connected could reduce the need for multiple batteries per consist. The idea of using 'a car' for the RFID reader system only would also let me do block track power and any visiting consist would just need to put one of these rfid cars in their consist, measure the length from the car to the front and back of the consist and it would be ready to run with the automated system without having to modify the locomotive and we'd the


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

It is very interesting to see how your plan is evolving and it is great that you are so open to suggestions. I had another thought on your design that you might consider. 
If you were to run the track either behind or even better in front of the waterfall you would be either near or at the same height as the patio and fire pit areas. When you leave that area and run to the southern part of your diagram you could maintain the grade (height) with a curved trestle which would be a focal point in itself. Coming off the covered patio you could maintain that height as well by building a benchwork down the entire length and back again with a lift out bridged section so you can gain access. It is true that our trains just like the real ones don't like tall grades or tight curves that also put a strain on equipment but grades or the appearance of the land falling away and rising over level track really looks amazing. By running the perimeter of your fence you will already have some height to play withat both ends of the patios. Most of our train layouts are at ground level unless we are lucky and have some natural grades like I do which I was able to dig out or add to for interest. The lowest points at ground level on my RR are notorious for collecting leaves and dirt. Most of us would agree that having trains run above the ground and closer to our eye level makes them look more realistic than standing over them all the time. Plus having a solid benchwork makes for a very solid roadbed for track and a great spot to build a train yard and it is alot easier to run wires etc. The biggest benefit to running above the ground level is that you and your fellow train buddies will appreciate is not having to get down on your hands and knees to switch cars, fix derailments, etc. etc. etc. 
I'm sure your plans will keep changing all winter long and then they might change some more when you start laying track. Either way have fun. 
Todd


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By cape cod Todd on 24 Oct 2011 09:07 AM 
It is very interesting to see how your plan is evolving and it is great that you are so open to suggestions. I had another thought on your design that you might consider. 
If you were to run the track either behind or even better in front of the waterfall you would be either near or at the same height as the patio and fire pit areas. When you leave that area and run to the southern part of your diagram you could maintain the grade (height) with a curved trestle which would be a focal point in itself. Coming off the covered patio you could maintain that height as well by building a benchwork down the entire length and back again with a lift out bridged section so you can gain access. It is true that our trains just like the real ones don't like tall grades or tight curves that also put a strain on equipment but grades or the appearance of the land falling away and rising over level track really looks amazing. By running the perimeter of your fence you will already have some height to play withat both ends of the patios. Most of our train layouts are at ground level unless we are lucky and have some natural grades like I do which I was able to dig out or add to for interest. The lowest points at ground level on my RR are notorious for collecting leaves and dirt. Most of us would agree that having trains run above the ground and closer to our eye level makes them look more realistic than standing over them all the time. Plus having a solid benchwork makes for a very solid roadbed for track and a great spot to build a train yard and it is alot easier to run wires etc. The biggest benefit to running above the ground level is that you and your fellow train buddies will appreciate is not having to get down on your hands and knees to switch cars, fix derailments, etc. etc. etc. 
I'm sure your plans will keep changing all winter long and then they might change some more when you start laying track. Either way have fun. 
Todd 


Something like this?












I've noted the elevation heights with red (10" above ground level) and blue (36" above ground level, which is the height of the waterfall and the covered patio area) dots along the areas of track that are raised/not sitting on dirt. I also added the mountain back into this diagram though the oval is more of a "somewhere around here" than how it would be, considering a siding goes into the mountain which may not be ideal. There would be a lot of 36" tall trestle work which will be a lot of work but could look really nice. On the side yard where the upper line would be right above the other track maybe I could do another mountain scene, bryce or rainbow canyon style with the two lower tracks winding a bit and the upper track sitting on about half trestles and half mountain ledges. 

The layout would also have 3 elevations that go into the train shed which would be nice. 2 rails wide and 4 rails high, although the third elevation would just be storage and not possible for trains to drive into. The forth level would be where the upper train line could drive into at 36" high.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Looking good. You certainly are planning for alot of train action on your RR. 
I like the track along the backside of the fence. If it were my space I would keep that then at the bottom of the diagram go for a larger diameter turnback maybe a 10' or 12' diameter over a trestle then tuck back in and follow the outside edge of the tiny deck, pond, firepit, covered patio and then by the rock wall cut across your WYE with a lift out bridge and then into your train shed/ yard area. If you really wanted to get crazy you could put in a helix at the eastern edge of the layout accessed through a turnout and have the highline drop to the lower level of the layout. You might not be able to run the long trains you want going up and down this grade but it would allow a shorter train to make a really interesting continous loop of your entire layout. Also it would be nice to have a destination for your freight cars say a yard or industry around the tiny deck area just so you could get some switching action in. 
So many plans and ideas are you being driven crazy yet?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've been investigating the automated train ideas in my spare time at nights vs doing layout design work and posting it here, but everything works together of course for the final design. Here's that thread on automation: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/98/aft/122425/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

Todd: I really like the ideas, and I'm not crazy yet... Not close, and I'm just getting started. There's about 20 layouts now drawn out and in a folder I'm keeping for all the various ideas. I just keep the best ideas of all of them posted here. Some are simple, some are way overboard, but it takes the odd ones to help me figure out what I want and don't want. 

There's a chance that one day I might be able to add railway to the south end of the yard, and I'd put in a


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## jjwtrainman (Mar 11, 2011)

you know, going back to the original plan, I think that you could get large radius curves by making the section to the left of the train shed cross the yard and the section across from the shed coming across to run next to the house. essentially this makes a double main line figure eight. As to how to cross the tracks, you could dig a trench for them to run beneath ground level, or build a bridge to go over the tracks. Just an idea.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's the updated layout. 


http://s135.photobucket.com/albums/...&current=yard_railroad-design5-all_layers.png 


Since the railyard/train shed is hard to see here are the two layers separated out. 

 




I've gone out with track and verified all the tight areas, including the Y and one reason there's an extra little jog near the corner of the house is because there's a drain pipe (not shown, but I should add it to the diagram) that needs the track about 6" away from the home. 

The tightest curves are 9' and only on the turn around on the right side of the layout and the loop back section of the Y which wouldn't be used much at all. 

Also the top section will be a mountain area and I've yet to decide how the mountains will be done but I'm thinking of having 3 different mountains, each about 8' wide and 3'-5' spans between them for some nice bridge work. 

The track that goes around the AC units is because the electrical and piping are 14"-20" above the ground which makes it only possible for a ground level train to go there. 

Oh, and I should note that as the track heads to the right of the layout, the grade drops 10" so I'll actually elevate the inside track 5" above grade on the right side and the outside track 15" above grade so that each mainline only changes 5" in about 50' so .8 degress of slope which shouldn't have any, will it??? (question) 

The outside track will however have a 1.8% slope as it exists the left side of the train shed, crosses over the inside track and goes down. How big of an issue could 1.8% be? Is that enough that it's practically unnoticeable to trains? I could push it out to 1.3% if the track isn't level until it gets to the foot bridge at the middle of the house if I need to. 

I have yet to add some sidings around the layout, mainly on the south/bottom section and in the mountain section for logging and coal operations. The way I figured I can run 7 trains, including opposite directions on each line at the same time using the railyard and other sections for passing and reversing. I'd be interested in what others might have to comment on improvements that might make for better operation. I've started writing code for the layout and RFID testing has been running perfectly on the test track. 

I also bought a Johnson $70 manual adjustment rotary laser level and although it can be off 1" in 50' it's working well enough for me to get general slope knowledge between areas so I know where I might need to build up elevated roadbed or do bridges. It also helps with knowing where I might need/want to do grade changes. Tonight I setup about 30 sticks around the layout and marked a reference point about 3' up and I'll go out tomorrow to confirm what I quickly measured tonight to verify that the layout I posted wasn't impossible to do with the elevation changes. One thing I found that I didn't expect is that the south/bottom area is about 9" below the center of the dog log. I was guessing about 4"-5" but not 9" which might lead to lots of bridges and/or elevated roadbed in that area to keep the track near perfect level. My goal is to be able to run some 30-50 car trains fairly often and some 100 car trains very seldom but still possible when i want to have a little fun knowing there could be operational problems with it.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

@jjwtrainman: I tried a bunch of those ideas, some worked well some others didn't. The main problem I worry about with trenches is the drainage problems we have in this area. The soil is pure clay. When it rained I had standing water for up to two weeks. Some neighbors could jump on their lawns weeks after a heavy storm and you could see 3" ripples go out 20' from where they jumped, very strange and entertaining. Because of this I actually installed a drain where I would get standing water that runs out to the street to prevent 6" of water building up in the south most corner of the yard. With all this, if I did much trenching I'd face problems of ground settling into the trenches (think pudding) and I would likely have to shop vac out water when wanting to run. I really like the idea of trenching and it would be a help considering that is the highest part of the yard but I just worry about water collecting in the trenches.  

I also considered removable bridges and people crossings that could withstand walking over but I didn't come up with a track layout that didn't require 2 lines in different areas, requiring 2 bridges so I've gone back to trying to do this with just one bridge. Let me know if you think this design solves what two figure eights would, or do you think two figure eight tracks would be better than this latest design?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm confused by your post, I did post pictures of the current yard as well as the diagrams I'm referring to. Am I missing something else?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I was also confused by that.. 
this is one of the most "photo intensive" threads recently.. 
maybe he accidently posted in the wrong thread? 

Scot


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe this will satisfy him.  

 

There are elevation notes around the layout in blue. I placed the rotary laser level at the "0" near the corner of the house which is the most critical area I believe and figure the furthest corners are +/- 1/2" in accuracy which should be good enough for now (and until I am laying the actual track) but this gives me an idea of where I'll have to build up grade and where it may be easier or harder to cross tracks depending on a 10" clearance I'm using for the layout. As you can see on the right side of the layout it would be quite easy to have one train go up 5" (or 5"+bridge thickness) and another go down 5" so there isn't one track with double the grade. Or should I focus on keeping one track perfectly level and do let the other track have double the grade?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

well its my turn. 
after thinking of this awhile off/on and seeing your yard, landscaping and tight areas. (I did not read all the others) And the chance of resale years later. I would keep it simple, loop to loop along the fence raised with some scenic areas ballasted in. 
make it removeable with little damage. 
Its just not the yard to clutter up with trains and tring to walk over and around stuff. 
keeping it simple will give your guest a woow factor when they walk out the patio doors. clean neat railway line along the fence to the loops out of the way. town at each end. sitting at the fire pit as the train passes in the night behind you, guest sitting on the patio as it curves by the food bar with shelves behind the curves. 
just my thoughts.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

NTCGRR: I created this image after your post showing where I plan to do flower beds in the yard. I wonder if it might change your mind about avoiding simple? Also my wife's dog has been tracking mud inside and as of this spring she wants all dirt to be covered with either bark or rock (aka ballast to me). She doesn't care what I do in this section of the yard at all, she hates yard work and all that so I have a blank check for this area.  As for resale, I designed and built the home so we don't plan on moving and we're only in our 30's so we hopefully will have plenty of time left in the home. I imagine the first one to re-do the yard will be myself rather than a new buyer. Also flower beds haven't been put in at all yet due to soil settling issues, but they will be done this year. First year along the home dropped 2', then 6" then 2" last year, we hope its done this year... That's also why there are dirt sections along the home where I've had to fill them with dirt as the ground settled. 100% clay and silt soil, not fun. I also hate mowing along stuff so cement curving will be done along anything taller than 3", which is the entire perimeter of the yard and home.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Did a little cleanup, added mountains and some indication of where track is elevated. 

I have hit one big snag as the outside loop comes out of the left side of the train shed, it has about a 3.5% slope. I'm trying to think of how I can lower that outside loop and connect into the switch that comes from a loop back on the inside track. I really would like to keep that reversing loop connecting to the outside track and not the inside track but I'm not sure how it can be done yet, Thoughts?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I took some track out last night and as I was considering having the loop back Y section near the corner of the house attach to inside loop rather than the outside loop. It could work, but it's not a safe bet. The problem I saw with trying to connect to the inside loop was it would possibly require less than a 9' curve as shown in the picture. This was because coming out of the train shed on the track closest to the corner house, the track couldn't curve enough around the corner of the home on a 10' diameter, I needed about 4" more. In this picture I show what could be possible to do the inner connection if I instead come out the middle of the 3 train shed lines and begin the curve inside the shed as this would allow me to be facing south more when the track goes by the corner of the house and thus not having such a steep angle when the two lines meet. Make sense? It's confusing I know. 

To play it safe, I instead have the outer loop (aka second level of the train shed) cross the tracks within 1' of the left side of the train shed rather than 3' away which buys me 2' aka .22" of grade drop at 2% which doesn't sound like a lot but I'm trying to minimize how steep the grade is as the outer loop drops 10" in about 40'. Good news is this will let the inside line be completely level and the outer loop having a .8% rise (I'll have 80-120' to rise 10") and a 2% fall (10" drop in about 40') +/- error depending on how the grade turns out in real life.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

New photo of the day. I decided that trying to connect the loopback to the inner loop near the train shed was just too close for everything. Then I realized (not sure why I didn't before) that I could just cross back to the inner loop after it goes over the 45 crossing. Only thing will be is it will only have a 9.15" clearance instead of 10". That's fine though as I don't expect to run over 8.5" and I'll make sure the software knows this is lower in case I run a train that's taller, then the software will make sure that train never uses that connection. 

I also redid the train station lines as well as the mountain lines and that siding. I also think I could use three way switches in the train shed. Unless I can't find any code 250 3 way switches that aren't more than 2 regular switches. 

Oh, and speaking of code 250, I'm currently looking at using code 250 aluminum. After researching and diving below the most talked about "it's not as strong" quirk, I think it's strong enough for what I need and I like the look of 250. Also considering I need 882' of track (did the measuring and calculations today) I don't want to spend $10,000 on just track. $2.60 a foot will quickly pay for battery packs and save me $7k. I've also been using 332 aluminum rail (I have about 200') in the basement for 6 months and have run that track over a thousand times without cleaning. I do notice that with that length, there's about a 20% voltage drop on the far end as I only have 16 gauge wire from my bridgewerks connecting to a single point on the track. Considering all this, and I don't anticipate too many guests (and many in the club run battery anyway now) I should be fine. I'll run power to the inner loop and call it good and just clean it when I need to. I'm also thinking in my head of a way of provide power to the rails via a battery car behind a non-battery engine rather than using track power in the traditional way. I have no idea if it will work, but the cool thing would be I could potentially let one train go anywhere it wants and never have to worry about shorting, as long as i insulate where needed of course. Just an idea, it may not work and I think it's less likely to work well.

Now switches are another issue, I need 27-29 or more. Ouch... Anyone sell switches in bulk discount?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

As a trial I redid the layout using mainly SVR #6 switches. However, I believe a #6 switch isn't really based on a 90" radius. I'm hoping to hear or find out what SVR's #6 switches and what the Wye #4 radius are. The degree the have listed on their site doesn't match what I'd expect. Also I'm also trying to figure out if I were to put 2 #6 switches together (for switching from inner to outer loop) how close the switches can be without any extra track between the switches. It looks like it could be 5" or so from central rails but I'm not sure so until I get all that data this is just another 8 hour session on the computer to redo the layout in "hopes" of getting closer to what the final layout would be. I'm also kind of stuck with some radius/switch curves around the Y/loop back tracks at the dog bent around the house as I really need a 4.5' and 6' radius Wye switch in there. I'm modeling this down to 1/10" for accuracy but without having all switch dimensions and info it's still a shot in the dark. 




PS. If anyone wants to see a higher resolution image that's easier to distinguish send me a pm. (I work at about 72 megapixel resolution but even a 1280x1024 image has far more detail for the track than this 800x600). I didn't post separate inner/outer loop diagrams as I still need to put the bridges back in which I removed. This image takes up about 3GB of ram with about 50 layers so I removed some when I was doing some mass relaying of track.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

A numbered switch isn't a radius cuve type switch. While there is a transition curve from the points to the frog the remaining track is straight at an angle. The number in a #6 switch means 1 foot of divergence for 6 feet of run, thus 6 feet past the frog the tracks are 1 foot apart. That's prototypical, radius switches are to fit sectional track geometries. The curve in the switch needs to match the curve in a circle of track or the ends won't meet... that's toy train heritage. Sectional track fits in starter sets and is easy to set up and run that first train. 
A #6 wye will be 2' diverged at 6' as there is no tangent track... 

Happy Rails 
John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

SVR lists a radius for their switches, what would that be used for? Their #6 RH/LH has a radius of 90", a #4 Wye has a radius of 90" and a #6 We has a radius of 158". I'm not sure why a #4 Wye would have the same radius as a #6 RH/LH switch and the #6 would have a radius that doesn't match anything else in their product line.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I suspect it's the curved section between the points and the frog. It looks like the rails after the frog are straight. I have a hunch it's marketing, but then again why Radius when G $cale usually uses Diameter (because it sounds bigger). 
When you use flex track you are not confined to sectional geometry and lengths. You have the luxury of fitting your track to your needs. Yesterday I cut a section of 10' D SS to about 6" long because I dislike too many 90 degree corners on my layout, making one 60 degrees and the next 120 doesn't always bring the ends together at the end.... To bring the end of a big reverse loop back to the mainline theres a matching 10'D curve attached to the switch WR(adius)* 10' a 1' tangent, the 6" section of 10' D and 10' of tangent to that 120 gegree curve, with flex, I'd have bent a long transition curve from the switch to straight away. 

* Even Aristo mixes the terms... a 10' Diameter Wide Radius switch! 

Happy Rails 
John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon, 
people like different things in their garden railroads..and maybe money isnt a major concern for you.. 
but everytime I look at your trackplans I think "wow..that would be SO much better if about half of the trackage was removed"  
but its not my railroad! if that's the way you want it, then more power to you.. 

but personally I think it would look a lot nicer with just a double-track mainline around the perimeter, and a yard or two.. 
to me it looks "cluttered" as it is..and if cost is a factor, you could cut your track and switch budget in half and still have a very nice railroad.. 

One thing I havent heard you mention much (perhaps you have, and I have missed it) 
but what do you do "like" in terms of operation? 
Do you like to just "watch trains run"? or you really into operation? complicated switching and etc.. 
im not seeing the *purpose* of all the track..if that makes sense.. 

Sdot


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 22 Jan 2012 12:04 PM 
I suspect it's the curved section between the points and the frog. It looks like the rails after the frog are straight. I have a hunch it's marketing, but then again why Radius when G $cale usually uses Diameter (because it sounds bigger). 
When you use flex track you are not confined to sectional geometry and lengths. You have the luxury of fitting your track to your needs. Yesterday I cut a section of 10' D SS to about 6" long because I dislike too many 90 degree corners on my layout, making one 60 degrees and the next 120 doesn't always bring the ends together at the end.... To bring the end of a big reverse loop back to the mainline theres a matching 10'D curve attached to the switch WR(adius)* 10' a 1' tangent, the 6" section of 10' D and 10' of tangent to that 120 gegree curve, with flex, I'd have bent a long transition curve from the switch to straight away. 

* Even Aristo mixes the terms... a 10' Diameter Wide Radius switch! 

Happy Rails 
John Brandon,

John is exactly correct about the 90 inch radius on the #4 Wye. I'm holding one right now and it is curved from the points to the frog and then straight through the frog. In looking at the two turnouts in front of me now, I have a hunch that they are calling the wye a #4 because you have two curves branching off from each other. The #6 turnout (RH or LH) would have a slightly different angle in the frog because the 90 inch radius is coming off straight track. It just looks like a greater angle.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 20 Jan 2012 08:43 PM 
... Also I'm also trying to figure out if I were to put 2 #6 switches together (for switching from inner to outer loop) how close the switches can be without any extra track between the switches. ...
First, you're asking good questions. My first piece of advice is that IF you are going with numbered turnouts throughout your layout, forget about radius issues (except for the actual mainline curves). You're not using sectional track, so you don't have to "match curves". As to the minimum distance between turnouts...IMHO the answer is that the frogs of the two turnouts need to be further apart than your longest car. That allows the car to "straighten up" before it goes into the next frog.


So, doing some off the top of my head calculating...a #6 turnout diverges at a rate of 1/6. As was mentioned earlier, that means six feet from the frog, the diverging track is 1 foot displaced from the straight track. So, in regard to your track design, if you were to want the mainlines 6" apart (0.5 feet) and you wanted to install a crossover using a #6, the frogs would need to be exactly 3' apart (0.5' separation x 6). That would be long enough for your longest car for sure...and it's an easier method to use regarding where turnouts need to be placed. 


Further, with numbered turnouts, the cars behave better when going through the turnout. That's because the lead truck is going straight after it passes through the frog...whereas with curved turnouts (LGB et al) the leading truck continues to turn the car as it traverses the exit curve. 


Keep up the good questions...and remember...this is YOUR railroad.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

They spelled out Y as wye, so you won't ask Why? 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By Scottychaos on 22 Jan 2012 12:18 PM 
Brandon, 
people like different things in their garden railroads..and maybe money isnt a major concern for you.. 
but everytime I look at your trackplans I think "wow..that would be SO much better if about half of the trackage was removed"  
but its not my railroad! if that's the way you want it, then more power to you.. 

but personally I think it would look a lot nicer with just a double-track mainline around the perimeter, and a yard or two.. 
to me it looks "cluttered" as it is..and if cost is a factor, you could cut your track and switch budget in half and still have a very nice railroad.. 

One thing I havent heard you mention much (perhaps you have, and I have missed it) 
but what do you do "like" in terms of operation? 
Do you like to just "watch trains run"? or you really into operation? complicated switching and etc.. 
im not seeing the *purpose* of all the track..if that makes sense.. 

Sdot 


I wish money wasn't a concern, but I'm fairly good at budgeting and I have a few bigger projects (finishing the basement, getting a new car as mine is 10 yeas old but it's still running fine, building a pergola, etc) that I've been saving up for that I can push off a bit longer to get the money needed for the railway. I had $5k budgeted for misc use this year so that was my goal but I'd rather spend more if it's going to save me time and money later on.

For operation I'd like a complex railway that over the years I can work on it becoming a 'living railway'. Since I was young I was always fascinated with a commercial for a train exhibit that showed lionel trains going over lowering bridges, changing tracks and barely missing the other trains. I liked this complexity and pseudo interaction of a layout. I also want a layout that I can do switching and other areas of railroading that I don't know much about now but would (or know other people who would) like to do that as well. There are two main loops that 'if all goes bad' I could run but I can't imagine that happening with all I've learned so far thanks to everyone here. So as a 'complexity' to two main loops there are 3 reversing loops as well as a "yard" inside the train shed, 2 sidings, and a couple passing sidings. It looks a bit of a mess just because of the space constraints. The side of my yard with the train shed is on the north side and it's honestly useless for anything except walking down. I thought about maybe a putting green there but I'd rather use it for layout space.


Over this winter I'm working on some software for my layout. I plan on having on board computers in each train that can think for itself and based computer generated way bills and rail priority it does it's best to maintain schedules and do it's job, with no involvement by myself. Of course I'll have a way to take control of any and all locos when I want. I've already been using rfid tags on a test track to with 100% accuracy over 5000 tests been able to track the train around a 100' of track and within 1' of accuracy. That's more than enough to bring the railroad to life in my views.


So back to why all the switches, mainly to allow 6-9 locos to be running on two mainlines at once. I've tried to imagine where I might want to change routes on the railroad and put switches in wherever I could that might be needed. I could probably remove 4-8 switches but I'd almost rather add them now than try to do it later and ending up with more joints. I also realize trains can't run themselves without ever having a problem and putting in more switches could add to potential failure. I guess maybe I'm shooting for the stars and with all the research and help I'm getting from everyone here I'll find a good solution down the road. I'd also rather side on the chance of having problems and being able to spend time tweaking it over the years too as an excuse to be outside doing 'yard stuff' rather than inside on honey-do lists. The yard is a bit like my man cave and I like challenges, it keeps me looking forward to trying something new.


For my other current quandaries, I like the look of code 250 more than 332 and from what I'm seeing that shouldn't add more than a couple % more likelyhood of derailing or problems and I'm fine with that I think (unless I learn something new). I like the cost savings of aluminum as it's about half the price but I worry that if I accidentally step on the track it's more likely to bend, though people who have aluminum are saying they don't have more problems than 332 as what damaged their 250 would have also damaged 332. SVR is the only maker of 250 SS that I've found and SVR doesn't have a lot of choices for switches when compared to Llagas Creek but Llagas Creek only does Aluminum and NS. LC also does has pneumatics for their switches for only $12.50 a switch which is what I plan on doing to improve the reliability of my railroad, SVR is about $20 per switch and I might just make my pneumatic parts like others here to save money. I worry that aluminum may be too soft if I have switches changing as much as ever 30 seconds or so for hours at a time when I'm running (probably an average of 4 hours a week) and may bend over the years. SVR doesn't offer aluminum switches because I've ready they had problems with them. I also don't like the look of combining different ties and track metals so I need to find one to stick with. I'm currently trying to figure out if code 332 aluminum or code 250 SS is "stronger". That's one of my projects for tonight.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

Posted By Brandon on 22 Jan 2012 04:31 PM 
I'm currently trying to figure out if code 332 aluminum or code 250 SS is "stronger". That's one of my projects for tonight.
*randon,* My layout is almost all 332, brass, SS and some aluminum. Based on my very limited experience, I would guess that the 250 SS would be stronger than the 332 aluminum. But I think the bigger issue is, are you sure you know what you want. I built a large HO layout that I was sure would be just what I wanted for long term. Later on I discovered that it wasn't. I would have been better off, doing something small and seeing how it met my needs before doing the "big one". I know of other people who have decided to build the ultimate railroad so that they wouldn't waste any time, effort or money on the "big one". I don't know any of them that were ever happy with what they came up with. I would stongly suggest that you get some track down outside and play with it and see what you really want to do. But, ultimately it's your railroad and you are the only one who has to be happy.
Bob


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 10 Jan 2012 10:27 AM 
I'm confused by your post, I did post pictures of the current yard as well as the diagrams I'm referring to. Am I missing something else? 

Sorry







it was a problem on my end, somethin' inside my confuser wouldnt open your pics, didnt even get the red x in a box just empty space, works now


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## GUNCAPTAIN2463 (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Brandon: I'm new at this G scale stuff too. i'd say run the track along the fence, raised up and do loops at each end. simple and out of the way.
Kevin


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Simple means less time building and engineering which is what I'll probably enjoy as much or more than running the trains.  

So updated layout pictures... Not what I'll do but my current 'thinking' so expect it to change (and I won't rule out super simple if that's what's required but I would like it very complex as long as the trains will run reliably... 

This layout is primary based on #6 SVR switches and a couple #4 Y's (both are 90" radius switches). 

I removes some switches near the train station due to not being able to do what I need/wanted with #6 switches (LC do make switches that would make it possible to do my previous layout though designs). I am concerned though about three areas. The Y near the corner of the house and both levels of the train shed. I tried to leave 18" between switches for cars to 'recenter' themselves but I couldn't do that everywhere, especially in the train sheds. How big of a problem is putting switches right after one another and with curves before/after? 

 


Below is the first level of the train shed (inside main line) 

 


Below is the second level of the train shed (outside main line)


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Latest revision... 










Basically I've done away with part of the small loop back tracks near the corner of the house and there are only 2 tracks along the patio. 

I'm getting ready to order track and switches, I'm slightly leaning towards SVR because I think having track power will be a benefit for locos I never convert to automation and for visiting engines and LC doesn't make SS but SVR does. I think I like LC ties more only because it wasn't have the center spline (and because LC rail is slightly more in scale when you pull out the calipers). 

I put both a LC and SVR track segments outside and ballasted it before a spring storm last night and the storm washed away a lot of ballast (#10 or #12 sand/rock for ballast, smaller than what most people use but I had it left over from a sand/gravel filter build for the pond) and you could see the center spline of the SVR which I am a bit worried about -- but I should note that my 'test ballast' was in a cookie pan that filled up with 1/2" water from the storm and both LC and SVR tracks were fully under water so the test could be completely worthless. The LC also had ballast washed out too and appeared to have lifted up some (maybe the ties floated up in the water?). That center spline of the SVR could potentially help in function or hurt in looks depending on how the ballast actually behaves over time. I just don't want to see a spline on my railroad at any point and I don't want to re-ballast after every rain storm to hide it either. :-/


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## Martan (Feb 4, 2012)

I'm also a software/firmware guy and your description of an automated layout is very cool. Exactly what I want to do. Perhaps also walk around with a iPad/tablet while it's running and 'play' with it, or use it to display video from the trains and various points on the layout? Then feed that into Facebook? Hmm. Commercialize it, sell it to Google and retire with millions? ha. Seriously, any chance you could break out another thread for this? What are you using in terms of h/w and s/w? How about comm between nodes? For sensors I was thinking sonar modules combined with an rfid scheme like you described. Dunno. You seem to be way further along, I'm just thinking. Love to see details, what are you writing code in? I'm a huge python fan.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The software/hardware is broken out here http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/98/aft/123170/afv/topic/Default.aspx but I haven't updated it since I was hoping to have a R-pi last November and here in April they still haven't sent them US side yet. 

For hardware I'm leaning towards the raspberry-pi (should be here soon) and building a client/server system that you can run various types of servers (direct control from an Ipad or something, basic running, time-schedule, automated, AI, etc) and the client that can take various input so it wouldn't be hard to also write a plugin for jmri to send it dcc like commands for running as well. 

I've thought about commercializing it but I've worked on OSS projects since the early 90's and am too busy ATM to have another job and I think this sort of thing is better left open Now if I lose my job tomorrow it could end up being commercial if I don't get another job soon but I highly, highly doubt that would happen.  That and I don't think there's a market for this that would be profitable since the hardware I'm siding with for various reasons wouldn't fit into HO products which is where it would need to be to support 1+ people in a business. 

Code will probably be perl for most but the AI server will likely be in C++. For something like this project scripting is best at first I believe but we'll see when the time comes down to it. So far the first client and server I've started are perl and only that because I've used perl far more than python though if I was putting in half or less of the time any language is fine for me. 

r-pi's will have dedicated camera pins in an upcoming release, I plan on putting a camera in each loco.  

Communication will be xml/soap'ish. 

Sensors could be several things, I don't like the clicks of sonar (guess my ears are still too good). VictorSpear on here works with several universities including MIT where they're working on various sensor testing and he likes laser the most though each engine would have a different mapping (based on angle and height of the track vs loco) and code gets more complex but they're all into that but I think that's a little too complex for a hobbiest which is why I think rfid and axle rev counting is a slightly better method for me. Look at his thread, it's 'emerging technologies' or something like that. They're working with RailML too which is very nice but probably too complex for a hobbiest as well. I think most people would prefer to put a train in 'learn mode' and have it go around the track and figure out where switches are on it's own and then run in 'operating mode' or some other term vs having to hand edit a bunch of xml files describing every curve and other specs around segments of track (though some of this could be determined in learn mode). 

Anyway, lots of ideas and it's now just a matter of getting the rest of the hardware and writing software. My POC have been good enough for me to know that RFID is a safe and low cost investment to go ahead and build my track without block wiring and other complex/expensive electrical control. I'm hoping too in a few weeks to have switches and track going down during the evening hours when there is still sun and working on code when it's too dark to lay track.


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## Skipford (Apr 23, 2012)

Brandon,


I am also getting started in G gauge and admire your ambition. Can you expound on the choice of turnouts? Are you going pneumatic to some form of controller? Elaborate.

If you get that whole automation thing worked out I am all interested. In the meantime I am going to go with battery powered CVP Airwire I believe. But I am still in a quandary about the automation of the turnouts.

I understand why you are going with the layout but your choice to not follow your fence line over the pond and around the firepit, etc. is unfortunate. 

Keep the posts coming they are very informative and you are helping people for sure! 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'll be going with all #6 turnouts mainly by recommendation of people online and in the local club. #6 are preferred because some larger locos (mallets/big boys) don't like anything tighter though I doubt I'll ever run anything like that since I have 4.5' radius curves. The higher the number also means the less likely trains will have problems backing up or with long loads and I will do both of these, but mainly long loads (50+ cars at times). With the curves I also make sure a car won't S bend through a switch as well. 

Now for control, I'm going pneumatic for sure. I am considering though of using a raspberry-pi connected to a 24 channel usb servo controller and using servo's to physically flip pneumatic toggle switches rather than using the 12v or 24v AC solenoid valves. This does two things, first is I'll build the control rod between the servo arms and pneumatic switches to allow me to 'quick disconnect' in case I want to manually flip a switch or before I have everything automated and second, this will actually save a fair amount of money. At $30 for a solenoid (not including buying some sort of power system for the solenoids that can interface with a computer) I can do the same for about $13 a switch ($50 for the 24 channel usb servo controller and


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's the latest updated layout plan. 

I've increased the "flower bed" area near the porch which reduces the amount of straight track which could help with keeping straight sections from getting the wiggles during heat/cool expansion. 

I've also greatly changed the lower section of the track. 4 parallel lines looked strange to me so there are 2 that stay at ground level and 2 that go down 9". The tracks however go from 1.8% to 3.3% grade based on my measurements. The 3.3% concerns me, however, with the software I can mark trains to avoid that part if they were to take it going up hill and pulling long loads. This design still does allow me to have a completely flat inside track for live-steam one day. 

I also added 3 more sidings (4 total) so I can do a little freight operating however those locations are not set in stone by any means, just concepts. 

I hope this Sunday to lay out switches on the top of the property and test how they fit to make sure the train shed switches are do-able rather than just using the computer to estimate. I now have 18 switches and about 240' of SVRR SS track in my garage that's awaiting finalizing things before I start to lay down track. I've also upgraded my security cameras, I'm not happy that I even have to think about this and it makes me mad to think people still (I still need to call my insurance company and get them on-record saying track is covered. Right now everything was bought on a visa and is covered under the 'lost or stolen' clause but I think the greatest theft may come from someone who hops the fence and grabs track or switches that aren't a finished project yet. :-/ 



PS, I'm not sure about that bridge over the 4 tracks at the bottom. it would have to be about 20" tall and just 3' long. I wanted an arched bridge but that's not possible. I've wondered about building a 'walk on mountain' made of cement with the lower 2 tracks going through a tunnel and the top 2 tracks on the 'top' of the mountain(or hill really) that you'd step on the tracks embedded in the cement/plaster/dapron or something. I don't want to do removable bridges because this path will sometimes be used while trains are running. Thoughts?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Some rework as well as new items like cement curbing being shown, brown under where trestles or bridges would be, and a couple guys to give an idea of the scale of the layout.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thoughts, comments, critiques? 

I was hoping to test lay switches and some track tomorrow or Sunday but my honey-do list now includes a full day of house stuff tomorrow and without asking me I've been volunteered for a full day of helping at a dog show on Sunday. :-/ Maybe next Sat since next Sun is mothers day...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Over the weekend and tonight I moved 17 sprinkler heads to from behind and under where the track will go. I also weedwacked the lawn down to nothing (get rid of some 'organics' that can settle) then sprayed grass killer everywhere inside where the cement curbing will grow. Two days later and it's already looking nicely brown. I've gown back and forth about putting weed fabric down under where the track will go. There are good cases for both ways. Weed fabric will help keep some grass and weeds down as well as help the track from settling some. On the other hand using decomposed granite or other material that gets packed will also prevent most weeds and will help settling much more than just using topsoil or some other types of dirt but when I need to dig down for any reason (plants, elevation changes, wiring, who knows what) I won't hit weed fabric which can be a PITA to deal with (I know this too well, there's about 3000sqft of it around my front and back yard already). 

I'm still torn about using decomposed granite. I left some in a cookie pan outside with track set in the ballast, after a week of getting sprinkler water on it every other day it was almost like cement. I lifted the track and had to use some force with my fingers to break the dirt out from between the ties. Once it's dried also you can't easily work it, forget about lifting the track, grabbing a hand full of dirt from a high spot and drizzling it back down on top unless you have a grinder nearby to break the stuff apart. I still have to test getting it wet to first and see if that makes it more workable. I know track is suppose to move for heat expansion and soil is suppose to do this but I wonder if it can move enough in decomposed granite. 

Also an update, I do have a locomotive with a r-pi and pololu 18v7 controller inside and running my aRail client software. I can currently telnet in and issue direction and speed commands as well as play any .wav file I want.


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## Skipford (Apr 23, 2012)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Brandon on 21 May 2012 10:56 PM 


Also an update, I do have a locomotive with a r-pi and pololu 18v7 controller inside and running my aRail client software. I can currently telnet in and issue direction and speed commands as well as play any .wav file I want. 
Please can you share more about the controller and client software and your interface for control of the locomotive? Are you thinking this is going to be the way you go? Will this be battery powered or rail?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Skipford: The client is basically a perl script that uses the io:select to read and write sockets for tcp/telnet on port 1054 (for now) and the websocket (1055 for now but will change) as well as stdin input which is a 10 digit number that a usb rfid reader inputs (the $10 rfid readers on ebay that are simply a usb keyboard). The perl script takes input frmo any of these three and depending on what it gets it either notifies the other sockets of what the rfid reader got for a tag, speed changed, sound played, or any of about 40 other functions. Data sent over sockets for status is xml, (ie: -3200/pololu>. So basically every socket is a global listener for all data (for now, this may change if there's too much data). 

You can run by track or battery, it won't matter. The only potential issue is reversing loops. I do plan on looking at capacitors or smaller battery to cross a 3' gap on reversing loops but I honestly haven't looked into this enough to know if it's even a remote possibility. My first though is battery though I do have 20+ locos I plan to put these controllers in and adding/removing batteries won't be easy without modifying the tops of each loco to have a compartment access. 

As for updates to the layout, I dug out about 150' of sod strips where cement curbing will go. I'm thinking I may just have the curbing installed and then put the track inside. I'm adding about 6" of space inside of the cement curbing in case measurements are off (it's the real world now of course) so I have some wiggle room. One more night/4 hours of digging up sod strips and I should have it all done. I also found one head I missed moving but this should be pretty simple to move. Depending how things go Thursday to dig up the yard, I might just order DG for saturday but I think it's more likely I'll get the DG next week. I'm hoping for curbing to be done by the middle of june and the first track in before the 4th of July.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Finished digging up the dirt for the curbing/edge of the railroad. I got out the rotary laser level tonight and it's all +/- 3/4" :O for the entire railroad except one 15' length that needs to drop 1"-3", not too bad!  I'll level where the curbing is at to +/- 1/4" then get the curbing poured, this will give me about 3"-4" deep of decomposed granite base under the railroad and hopefully the 250' long mainline that's +/- 1/4" the entire way around... 

I also did some more work on aRail, more motor controller work to support safe direction switching and accelerations. I need to add E-stop and customizable speed curves and motor control will be finished. I also found out I somehow had a second r-pi coming (my CC was charged twice) but it's already spoken for by a friend who's going to be working on his own set of projects (not railroad related). Now I just hope my r-pi doesn't get fried before r-pi's aren't backordered for 2 months...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's some photos of the current state. 

 

 

 

Monday I should be getting bedding sand(or gravel, not sure which I should get yet) to go in the trenches where the cement curbing will sit on top of, then I can bring in dirt to go behind the curbing where the track will lay. There will be about 2' of material under the cement curbing and since the curbing is 4" tall there will be 5" of material under the track, hopefully this makes frost heave and settling very minor, as soon as I can figure out what material I should use... :-/


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## auburnrails (May 31, 2012)

Looks great! 

-Dave


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Lot of levelling work. I got some bedding sand and the there's now 250' of curbing trenching that's within 1/8th all the way around thanks to the rotary laser level. I've done 3 sessions of compaction and levelling so I don't expect much settling any more. The bedding sand has hardened up quite nicely from all the compaction. Maybe in a week or two I'll have the curbing installed and I can then add 4" of bedding sand again behind the curbing and begin the base for laying track. 


The puddle in the picture above was than 1/16th of an inch deep. So I levelled it up to perfectly flat tonight.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Before you add curbs and rock, lay some track and check clearances. Layout your switches, see how much room they take. Now is the best time to make sure it all fits. 
Looking good. 
John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I laid track out in January to get my plans closer and then ordered some switches from SVR and Llagas creek to test things out. I used 10' diameter curves and made sure those made it. When I dug out the trenches I pulled out the track yet again and verified stuff. The hardest area is the corner of the house. The one section of track that cuts through the lawn was really tricky to get right but it's set for a 11' diameter curve in case I have to pull it in tighter. 

I'm not 100% sure I haven't made a mistake somewhere but I tested all curves for 10' and figured if I get stuck with 9' somewhere it's not the end of the world since my tightest curve on the side of the house is already 9'. 

I did run into a problem that my siding along the top of the diagram will probably be two sections from two switches. Where the AC units are there's only 16" wide, thus not wide enough for 3 track widths. I'll find another way to do my coal mine. I decided it was better to have a 3' wide path than a 2' wide path and get that super long siding in. 

The curbing guy could potentially make things tight if he doesn't hold the machine to the inside of the curves, I just need to find a good curbing guy. I called a few and they all said 10" wide area cleared for a 6" wide curbing. 4" of slop is a lot.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Wondering how you would trim the edges of the lawn with all the planned curves when you fill the beds and raise it with grit and gravel ? Wouldn't pebbles and stuff fly around when you use a weed-whacker ? Perhaps you already thought about this since there is a lawn edge on every inch of track.

Cheers,
Victor


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Similar to Victor's question, how will you mow those various islands of grass? It'd be difficult to get an even surface using a weed trimmer. 

JackM


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

There will be cement curbing between the grass and track area. The cement curbing is 1.5" tall on the grass side and slants to 4" tall on the track side, 6 inches wide, thus keeping the track and dirt away from the mower and edging tools. I still have a few hours of trenching and backfilling with the bedding sand for curbing not related to the railroad but this won't be as precise so it should go much faster. 

I hope to have the curbing in before the official start day of summer that's around the 21st of June so I'll have "all summer" to lay track, all 900' of it and 25 switches. My house will also be on a water garden tour in August so I'd like to have a fair portion of the railway done by then as well as the aRail software so it adds a little fun touch to my yard. 

There's only one island, the north side is accessed through a gate from the front yard and there's just that 2' wide 4" tall table section between the north yard and west yard so I just pop the lawn mower over to get to the center island. I've mowed the yard 2 times now with a 4" trench between the two areas and it's been fine. I'm also buying a new lawn mower soon that allows me to stop the blade without stopping the mower.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The cement curbing was put in 3 days ago and last night I put in more road base where the track will go. I'm still looking for a good ballasting rock but I'll start laying track and when I find the ballast rock I'll put it over the track and then raise the track through it.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Try to go to a local rock quarry. ASk if they have a 1/4" clean rock. They may call it 1/4" chips also. Make sure the rock they are quarring is a Limestone or something like that. Stay away from the gravel pits, they are taking rock from old river bottoms, so they wont have a uniform rock. Make sure the rock is "Clean" this means they have screened off all the fines. That will make the rock look real nice.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

*Bridge Over Troubled Waters* 


Brandon,


I've love "water features" on model railroads. It's been a problem I've had for over 55 years.









You have already built a really nice pond and waterfall. The layout plans I've seen all use that "water feature" as background scenery. I'm thinking put a bridge over the pond.

Before I moved out of Houston, I had a "bridge feature". I knew I was moving out of Houston when I retired, so I didn't want to take the time or money to dig a pond or install a waterfall. 




 
It's been 4 months of planning and procrastinating since I made the move out of Houston, but I will have a "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" one of these days. 
This is the way it looks today "in process".



 
The water ain't under the bridge yet, but this is the concept.



 


 
For the final extension, I'm going to submit an application to the TRA for a permit to run a 9 mile long line to the far shore.









I realize that "water features" aren't everyone's cup of tea, but you already have a neat pond and waterfall.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Track laying starts tomorrow! ... That is if there is no rain but even then that might be a bit refreshing in the 100 degree weather we've had lately. 

I have 3 custom split-jaw walk-on double track sections on order as well that will fit between the cement curbing sections and hopefully keep things tidy that way. 

Last new info is I'm going to be using accucraft ties on the svrr rail rather than svrr ties. I understand that svrr ties might help for avoiding some expansion issues but since my track will be on the ground and free floating, I believe that I'd be ballasting track weekly to keep the center spline hidden. I couldn't recommend the ties enough though for raised layouts that have ballast glued in place. If anyone also is interested in a good deal on the ties, I have 5 boxes of ties, about 240' of length. 

Tomorrow I'll post pictures with track and switches.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

There's about 50' of track and 10 switches down but progress has stopped as I wait for my split jaw walk-on sections that really should be in before I cut rail to length for the main curves that set the flow for the rest of the layout. I also ordered the rest (600') of svrr rail and 900' of accucraft ties (Thanks Mark from Silver State Trains)


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm waiting for the rest of the track (will be here Tuesday) and more critically, for Split-Jaw to make and ship the 3 walk-on rail bed sections as these need to be placed as they're in the core section of the layout that everything is based on. 

Here's some photos of the current state. Most everything is rough placement until I get the split jaw pieces. I have less than 3 weeks now until 'pond tour' and my yard is on display. I'm getting a bit nervous, it's been 2 weeks since I sent split-jaw the diagrams of the pieces I need and I Friday I finally was able to talk to Peter instead of the sales lady (Who also said they couldn't do code 250, but I knew they could and Peter later confirmed she was incorrect) and hopefully tomorrow it can get all straightened out. Sounds like it will ship without the rail since they don't have svrr stainless in stock. They said they'll test fit with brass, hopefully they're the same profile.

I have the mason coming to finish up the glass/cement pond ledge this next week then the pond will be completed. Then I've got to start planting trees and flowers for the final yard touches but I really need the track 'roughed in' before I can do that.


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## SailorDon (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 29 Jul 2012 09:12 AM 

I have the mason coming to finish up the glass/cement pond ledge this next week then the pond will be completed. 
http://s135.photobucket.com/albums/q155/srcrbrandon/train/?action=view&current=20120728_152259.jpg 

The 100 degree heat syndrome has hit me also. It has slowed down construction of my layout to a crawl. 
I'm too old to be lifting and placing embankment stones in 100 degree heat.
Notice the most work needs to be done in the direct sunlight.


 
I'm looking forward to seeing your water feature when the pond is completed.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm completely with you. I work on it after the sun has gone down enough (7;30pm right now) that I can work in the shade from the fence during the week days and on Saturday and Sunday I'm fortunate to have a backyard on the west side of my home and a 20x14' patio that stays shaded until about 2pm. I work in the yard where it's shaded and as the sun comes over the home I begin assembling the track on the patio and push it out into the yard and when a 20'-40' section is complete I put on my big hat and drag it to it's place in the yard, connect it, then go back to the patio shade. I also do most of my yard work at 8am on Saturdays and Sundays to help keep myself out of the sun. I've lost 5lbs in water in just 2 hours if I try to do anything in the sun.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Really??? Passing up on a cool 100 degree day? 114 is my cutoff. 
Down here we have a neat invention we call an Umbrella, the idea is you put it between you and the sun and you can stay cooler, no foolin'! 

Brandon, 
Use some of yor longest cars and locos to test for clearances. Lucky for me I could use a chainsaw to open a tunnel portal that looked ok...... What looks like a big space can quickly shrink as we add our 'clutter'. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm using 6.5" wide for straights and 9" wide on center for min 5' radius with 10" tall for clearances. I should be set for a k-27 though I don't know how well it will do on my turns. 

I bought a pop-up canopy today in case I need to set it up in the middle of the yard over the next few weeks. 100 isn't bad, but the moment you start exercising in any way the sweat just won't stay out of my eyes which is the worst part.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

More track laying tonight. 

I'm running into a little visual problem that's bugging me. Accucraft ties have a closer gap than say SVRR ties and the spit jaw clamps (aka svrr clamps) add an extra 1/4" gap where you have a clamp. 

At first I didn't think this would be an issue but since I'm staggering the joints ever 3 feet (so other than switches, no rail clamps are close to each other to help reduce derailing issues) I have strange gaps every 3 feet. I'll post a picture in the morning. 

Split jaw makes "mini clamps" and I'm wondering if I should have used those. Split Jaw mentions they're not as strong but will fit between ties... 

Thoughts?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Split Jaw walk-on sections installed. I'm very pleased with them. I e-mailed diagrams with noted radius to fit around the cement curbing and stairs and they were made perfectly. 

 

 

I can now work on the rest of the track, though I did start building the train shed on Saturday since I couldn't do work on the track. Now I have 3 projects ready to work on and am struggling for time...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Current State...


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## Loco Lee (Feb 17, 2010)

WOW, 

It looks nice. Keep up the good work. 

Loco Lee


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

You know, when you first started this I thought, "This is not good, he's trying to do too much. This is not going to end well. He's going to get discouraged when he finds out it won't work and might give up entirely." Well, it looks great and I can see that you have a really nice railroad. I would love to have one that well built and organized. You've done a really good job on this. I can't wait to see the finished product.
Bob


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks, there is a lot left to go. I could spend an hour writing up everything left to do and I'd say the railroad is maybe 5% complete and I like the idea that there's a lot left to do. Running trains is one thing but designing, planning, building and polishing are just as much fun as running the trains themselves. 

I have had to redo one area twice, pieces did not fit perfectly and I'm taking the time to make sure it's all perfect before moving on to less critical areas. Within the next month I hope to have the track laid in what I'd call a 'sketch' format because the core may be there but it will look very ugly until I can form the hills, bridges, truss, and other details to make it more than dirt&track. 

I test run some cars and try to force derailings on every joint, curve and switch and am sticking to minimum 10' diameter, 6.5" track clearance on straights and 9" on corners. Because this the layout is complex, it's not easy to test run all my locos and cars in every direction over and over and I can't rely on the 'should work' idea which adds a lot of time to track laying to make sure there's less of a chance of problems. Every 6" of track has been laser leveled to 1/16". Might be overkill but I'd rather spend time overdoing than redoing. 

Out tonight working on the layout once again...


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

The railroad is looking really great Brandon, keep it up. 

Chris


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I saw your X switch and it gave me an idea for a portion of mine. I assume it let's you select going each way? Who's is it?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The X is actually just two SVRR #6 Left Hand switches. SVRR does make #4 (same output angle I think as #6 RH/LH) and #6 Y's that would make for a better X configuration but I wanted these LH switches for neighboring track clearances to be a certain way. Since I run two mainlines, the X lets me go to a siding on each mainline Or lets me switch over to the other mainline. It was about functionality for this particular area.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Real X-switches can be found here:

http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/s...9_220.html

One example


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Nice but Ouch.........


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## woody1492 (Aug 12, 2012)

god I hate this word what-if the A/C gos out and you have to tear up track??? I have the same problem with A/C right in the middle of my lay out???


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've had an A/C unit replaced, helped the guy do it. The way the line sets come out, no track would have to be 'torn up' -- There's only about 2' of A/C line coming out the side of the home and it is actually above the track. A trestle section would potentially need to be moved but you could work around it quite easily, IF the person is careful not to step back without looking. 

My biggest worry would be if sprinkler pipes break under the ground. The cement curbing is above some of the pipe runs. The layout itself is only above about 20 sqft of of pipe because of how I ran the pipes (mainly down the center of the lawn and away from the house and pond where the railroad is.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon, you've done a beautiful job thus far. I look forward to following your progress!!

Richard


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Picture time! 

When looking at the railroad, I'm in need of some ideas for how to make the tracks along the fence look interesting yet accomplish the following: 

The furthest back track needs to rise 10" in 60 feet. 
The middle track has to stay completely level (it may look like the track is going up but the ground is actually dropping 6" in that 60') 
The nearest track is part of a loop back that raises 10" in 35', yes, slightly over 2% grade but there's no around it. 

I don't know if I should build bridges for the whole fence line, dry stack rock for 'mountains', do chicken wire and cement mountains, and so on.
Space is limited and the tracks are such lone straight runs I'm not sure what all I could do here well.
I could potentially swap the loop back track and the mainline/stays flat track but during my design I thought this would be more interesting visually. 

What have others done in tight areas with 3+ long and straight tracks where elevation changes are going on but only with 2 of the 3 tracks? The tightest width is 14" between the fence the cement curbing which is why the front/reversing track will have to have some bridges where it floats above the cement curbing. The widest between the fence and the curbing is 31"

Now the pictures...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, you've done a great deal of work lately on your layout!! 

Now - Your in the thick of a 'reality check' and need to be a bit flexible to solve some the issues facing you! 

First your 10 in. rise in 35 feet section is more like a 2.38 percent grade, & a not so realistic point to point at that - You need room for vertical grade changes also. You would really be building more like a 3% - 4 % grade on this section .... 

So......... 

Tackle the challenges now!! 

Follow the lower end of this steep track back about 20 feet or so, to a yard storage switch. Consider starting your grade change here, and also across the valley by a 2 story red roof building. This gives you some added length to work with at the lower end. 

Next, IF - I am following our layout plans close enough, - You should consider moving some cross-over switches into a different configuration at the top of the grade for the return loop which will also create some more room to work with - You'll get both room for the grade changes, but also a lower grade in the end! 

As far as jumping across or over two sections of your concrete edging with a bridge - GO For it!!!! Think "over- hanging" cliffs here, with track on the top edge or a Cliff hanger!!!! hehe!! A nice arched steel bridge would look great here. What I'm seeing is - over hanging - outcroppings that place the track closer vertically to the grass edging, while maintaining your existing foot print at present! In effect slightly widening the area. 

With the narrow space Your working with and the number of tracks you have in mind,... it would seem to work out best and look really rugged using lots of rock outcroppings and tunnels - short and long - with trestles and bridges to get this section to work as designed!!! 

If you hide some of the track work it will not look so busy or crowded along the long-narrow space of Your side yard. Creating scenery of a higher vertical nature will change the feelings & perspective you get when you look at it as a whole. 

Good luck & keep at it!!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Dirk, 

Great suggestions, I'll look into moving the grade start on the lower end back, I can actually pick up 15' or so there probably but I'd like to keep the switches at the bottom where they're at for functional reasons so the switches will be on a slight grade. 

I'm still trying to figure out what you meant by moving the cross over switch arrangement though. Is this what you meant? (The diagram in the middle) 
 

I have no skill for building chicken wire/cement mountains or painting, I might not have a choice and have to learn I guess. I was also hoping to have the tracks curve back and forth a little, even if it's just a few inches to avoid completely straight sections and I also wanted to have the two mainline runs cross back and forth over each other some but maybe this isn't possible without having a steeper grade. One thing I had planned is that the steeper loopback segment would almost always only be used for going down. There's non-loopback track section once it comes out of the train shed is also steeper than what I call the uphill segment for the outer mainline, so I think most of the time that outer mainline will be for clockwise running and the inside will be counter clockwise movement. That way if I have a long train it has 60' to get up 10". 

Here's the layout map again, you'll notice I showed several mountains that would have bridges in between and that the outer and inner mainlines crossed at one point for some added interest. When the curbing when in I lost 6" more than I was expecting and I lost the siding shown in this diagram and has made it harder to fit mountains in.

 

I've also considered just dropping the 10" height clearance for the inside loop. The other end of the layout is also having steep requirements for over/under and it would be nice to go down to 8". I don't have any locos or cars that require more than 7" at the moment and maybe I just stick to this, or else I just know that taller items can only be run on the outside loop where it never goes under. I do have 9.5' diameter curves which limits some items and the upper line train shed area has width for a 6.5" wide k-27 but the bottom yard has 5" 6.5" and 5" clearances on the track so I couldn't run 2 k-27's through the train shed at the same time either. 


I also took this video the other day and I didn't post it at first because it's pretty bad (camera phone). I went back and took still photos but here it is just in case anyone wanted to see a video.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

While I was eating My breakfast I played with your layout, mmmmm!! :~} 

Seems like you still have quite a number of items to nail down... 

Tackle 'em as You can, in any order - it will help! 

I use a 10" wide by 12" tall opening for My F-scale tunnels and general clearances! You need to consider the track support base thickness also - If you haven't or for got!!! Like 10" plus road bed section will be the actual space or distance between any two tracks.... 

Your drawing shows the upper cross-over switches separated some, while the pics show them butted together!! Not sure what to suggest with that upper end return loop, except to stretch things out as much as You can to get better grades ! 

I am adding a sketch of drawing figures I use to help note different things on a layout drawing, such as tunnels, bridges & trestles. Shown are also a bridge over a wash - and a bridge over another track below it. 

 

I also tried to highlight some of the tracks - into new locations - slightly massaging them into a better position. Adding tunnel openings - the steel bridge and trestles - may help You visualize it better also... Hope so, it was tuff using such a long shot view of your side yard tho!! but, it is a start... 

 

Like I said - keep working at it, and it will slowly come together, evolving over time. Try different approaches also, some that may even seem not so good in Your mind may work in reality. This stage to me is the final maturing process of the design of a layout, it's final outcome!!!! Enjoy it!, and the results you come up with. 

IF it seems to not be coming together - "Take a Break" and walk away for a while or over night. Let it sit, you really don't want to keep rebuilding your layout just for something to do!! 

When WE enter any hobby, one thing it does is stretch our skills and abilities to build things. Try chicken wire and cement mountains, with cement rocks from molds added over a hard shell base, much like in smaller indoor layouts! Even using the chicken wire to rough form an outline of a mountain will help. I say this, for My own layout I am using real rocks - ONLY - even this is challenging. They don't all fit together so well............ ha 

I was thinking a hard shell - hollow mountain - would work well against your fence, and not be on the fence itself if supported properly from behind. 

Where are you BTW?!! what state/town? 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Dirk, 

Very good advice... I always seem to wait to know things for sure before moving on, I like to do things right the first time whenever I can. 

The upper ends of the track aren't exactly where they'll be in the end for the fact that if they're much longer I'd have to install switches and I'm still in the 'check things out carefully' stage. The layout I posted gives me about 35'-40' of length to raise the 10.5" (I call it 10" but yes, I plan on 1/8" or 1/4" aluminium sheet under the ties in that location and rough that and the ties to 1/2" in height). Extending the base gives me another 15' so 1.75% vs the 2.,5% of 35'. 8.5" in 35' is 2.02% grade just fyi. 

I'll have to start small and work up on skill for cement mountain work. I Live in UT/Saratoga, not sure though if anyone in the club is a chicken wire/cement teacher though, I'll have to ask at the next meeting I can attend which is in late October unfortunately. 

I spent about 2 hours walking around a rock yard looking at various natural rock. They have some interesting things like about 1'x6'x3" rock that I wondered about and using it like a retaining wall. Dry stacking can look fairly scale if you find the right rock, but I didn't feel like they had exactly what would be needed. (Should have taken pictures). In Utah there are a lot of vertical rock cliffs that thin slabs could work for but the problem is I have the rounded cement curbing and they didn't have any slabs that matched the curves.  Piecing together the slabs would break the scale/realistic mountain look, not to mention become difficult finding the right pieces to fit. I have seen some chicken wire/cement mountains that after a few years can look pretty bad and need constant painting which is why going natural appealed to me. Too bad mother nature doesn't make rock chips appear like larger mountains. Oh, they had some 5' round rocks that I wish I could blast or cut, that would be very nice and scale'ish. 

I took a cue from your sketched up photo, that was really helpful. I went outside and forced some S's into the track and I'll tell you, that alone made the section a lot more interesting and open to more imagineering.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, You seem to be well North of me in S.E. AZ !! 

Looks better! Keep working at it and chipping away! 

Looking at real rocks in a yard gives you more ideas too. They will help solve your goals, by giving you more ideas and options as to what will work for you! 

'Course offset layering of rocks can form a curve - can it not? Also thin sections of vertical rock slabs could work very well in the room you have to work with and fool the eye at the same time! And cutting the rock slabs can give you the portion you want to use, with the saw cut hidden by a slab in the front of the cut one, or placed near the bottom line of a rock to be buried in dirt or rocks. 

One of My challenges currently is trying to come up with Granite rocks so well positioned they form a tunnel entrance that looks like it was "blasted" from solid rock...I've been eye balling - granite, quartz, and a iron-limestone mix. The iron-limestone rocks have the best broken lines for the blasted look, but the granite looks much better and is what I'm currently trying to work with... 

Maybe you can build some quick and easy tunnel portals to give the impression of a opening and help you to "see" where a tunnel could go, thus hiding some of the track work. Try to get some of it hidden if you can.... 

Keep developing Your ideas and working at it!!! Looks great and keep having FUN! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, 

Can you use some of the rock slabs as backdrops - upright against the fence to appear as a mountain range, brighter colors in front and darker colors to the rear of the stacks and higher, to look like re-ceding mountains in the distance,.. sort of a compressive look like a back drop on a indoor layout might do.??!! 

D


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I thought about doing just that. With the tight spaces though, I'd lose 2"-4" of width and and I'm not sure if I could blend the foreground rock and details with a slab. Most of the slabs are blade cut so the very flat surface might look strange. 

I spent a few ours last night watching videos on youtube for making faux rocks. It appears a lot of people use foam to make rocks and cover the foam with a grout and acrylic polymer mix (probably could use cement or mortar too as long as there's acrylic polymer mixed in?) 

I am a bit tempted to use the foam method instead of chicken wire because the neighborhood is infested with voles and there are countless outdoor cats to try to keep the vole numbers down. I'd hate to have a weather protected area for the voles to bread or a place for cats to use as a covered litter box. I don't know if the voles will dig into the foam though so that could be worse? But the foam would let me 'test' out various ideas and plans before coating the foam. As I look at some of the curves, I think a monument valley. Still wondering if I could leave design it all with foam and have that done this fall and not coat and finish it until next spring in case I want to tweak any parts, how fast does foam decay and go bad and is that a problem if coating it anyway?


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Brandon, 

Although it would increase the cost, you could 'wrap' the foam in hardware cloth to keep the critters from digging into the soft stuff. 

_Edit: Would also give a place to anchor the foam to the ground and keep it from shifting._

Bob C


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Not a bad idea. EPS seems to be somewhat insect proof but they will burrow through if there's food. Maybe it's just chicken wire and stuffing vole bate under the mountains all summer long... Watched a bunch more videos tonight of how to make rock. Seems like acrylic cement and Hypertufa are the most common methods. Hypertufa seems to require being stuffed in a bag to keep moisture in for a month, not sure how to do that with a mountain though...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey, did somebody here order a PIZZA - to go!!!!!!!!!!!! ? mmmmmm 

Monument Valley s o u n d s like a great idea!! 

Some guy was building cement rock towers using a blob system built over re-bar - I thought on this site under scenery somewhere!!! mmmmmmmm ...? 

You could go nuts in your side yard Now Brandon!! Really make some thing different here. 

Foam could be set in a cement base to protect the bottom from critters and worms.... a re-bar rod could be used to give support and set into the ground. 

You could build sections that get added when dry and then install them. 

Make a squished marble or football shape in foam, covered in cement, set it on top of a 24" - 30" tall rock spire, made from a re-bar rod and foam sandwich - carved to look like a really rugged circular rock formation, in the shape of a golf T, - ...... broad base that slowly tapers upwards to a narrow section ending in a bowl shape to hold the marble . Your trains can run by it at the base on one side and pass it on a trestle higher up on the other side!! 

........... WOW! ! !! ! ....... OK, I'll clam down, .......now? 

............ maybe !! 

Really you could have a party and have people make different rock formations and plant 'em all !!! 

PIZZA anyone!!! 

Go study some of the pizza layout threads for ideas!!! 

...............Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

NOW - on a serious note how long is the house down the side yard ..? 

I want to do some drawings! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Mountains and such.









Mountains - Dennis Rayon (PDF 2.85MB)[/b]


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The side yard is 9.5' wide and 55' long from the corner of the back of the house to where the fence with the gate is (67' from the elevated patio to the front fence with the gate). I keep going back and forth if I should do the entire area as one 'theme' (mountains and bridges) or if I could fit a few different themes in (mountains and bridges, coastal bay, industrial site, etc).


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I woke up thinking about this project of yours Brandon........... 

Was thinking about the Arches National park and the cool formations there. 

SO think with a really open mind here a bit 

 

This replaces the steel bridge I came up with before. 
With a free - form rock arch bridge curved above and off over the grass some what and back inside the border area again. You would see the lower track running behind and below the arched rocks, with a tall trestle carrying the highest track up and over the lowest track. The bottom track would come and go thru some short tunnels ... 

The main arch can be built from a re-bar skeleton frame work - covered in foam and free form carved - say about 5-6 inches wide and a couple inches thick at the mid point of the span, flowing back to the base at both ends - under the track itself, and back with-in the space inside the cement border!! 

Colored in vivid oranges - what a sight it would be!!! And Your going to run trains over this,........ WOW!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry,... off to My watering chores and My tunnel project here!!!!!!


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

That's beautiful, I have to do that....


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Took some pictures on my lunch break. I've either got track in place or there are AMS sectional track pieces where flex track will go. This gave me a chance to verify the switches and track locations will work. Last night I had spend 3 hours mainly staring at things and not liking how stuff was going. I swapped switches around a lot, not sure one switch type went where I had planned (Glad I bought a couple extra). 

These pictures also show an idea of having the lower track cross the grass further from the gate. The reason I'm debating this idea three fold, I don't have tracks directly above and below eachother (near the gate) where they cross the grass (Could be a pro or con because a double decker bridge could be cool), these leaves more space along the ground along the fence in case I want to add some track and industry for switching, and third, it requires less weaving around obstacles like the valve circuit electrical lines coming out of the house. 

Edit: Posting the last track diagram I made (note that in the side yard, the lower track shows two places that it turns around 180 degrees, not sure which place would be better yet)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

How much traffic will you see thru the gate? 

Will there be a removable bridge to get thru the gate? 

Lots of track back in the side yard!!!! 

But - won't guests be really surprised when they first walk in..... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Almost no traffic through the gate, it's padlocked now and probably will always be. There's a larger double gate on the other side with a drop bar so no one can get into the yard unless you're behind the gates (have a dog who isn't dog friendly and we don't want kids or anyone walking back or letting him out). Mowing the yard is about the only time I may open the gate but I don't even open the gate for that sometimes. 

Yes, three removable bridges in that area, probably will be in place most all the time. Although I can step over all the bridges if I were in need to re-rail a car along the back.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Oops, kept saying monument valley but I think it's more of bryce canyon that's what would work...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Will you name the side yard that? At least the foamie side!?? 

I will have to see if I have a spot I could get so carried away with on My layout ! 

mmmmmmmmmm More pizza please!! 

Mostly it is open AZ landscape, but time will tell I think. 

D


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm sure you could find a place to get carried away... Have you figured out if you have more than a mile of track yet? 

I have yet to name anything... Even the 23 koi I have don't have names although the biggest one is the ugliest so Monster will probably become its name. 

Last night I finished bending the rail for the two 180' loopbacks on the side yard. 

This now marks the completion of all rail bending and all of the aluminium sectional/test track is no longer needed and has gone back inside. A small milestone but it's actually pretty significant to me..


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

ya........................... 

I have more than a MILE of track here. 

N.G. loop is 320 feet , ...or 1.75 mile....
Main line, well, just,...... very l o n g 

I do have one or two spots to consider that could be rather rock-esque, or maybe a Willy Coyote Canyon........ just now thought of 1 spot that could work well..! 

OH wait, did you mean more than a Mile of track - like 5,280 real feet of track, that might happen - YES! 

Anything that gets done is important, cause it all needs to be done!! Spent this morning unloading materials and setting them out in the layout area for further work here, now I can continue with the road bed surface this weekend! Progress - Yes.!! 

Hey, I got on here to ask if you have an idea how you will support the track that is above the ground line, esp. along the fence? Also go back and look at the tub/upper patio area foot step crossing you put in. Can you even begin a grade uphill from this point? Will doing so affect any other track work? 

So, do you work from home? You seem to be home allot. 

Breakfast over - back to work 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

or how about a 10,000 scale foot 3 track passing siding, up hill only! ( actually about 10,450 ft long, or 350 ft. )

d


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

5280' of track, I think you might hit that mark!  

I haven't decided yet how I'm going to support the track. For now it's the wood stakes as you can tell. I need to get some hardware cloth or chicken wire and play with it a little to see how it forms. 

I've thought about making M shaped mountain ridges where the track will sit and filling the bottom of the V shape in the M with ballast. I could have problems with drainage so maybe two inverted V's so there's actual ground in the middle for drainage but doing that may be tough where space is limited and the V would be very thin at the base. Or just thinking now, if I do the M I can just not put cement in the middle of the M's V and put some weed or other fine mesh so that ballast won't fall through... 

I could also completely smooth out the top of the ridges but I think levelling it perfectly during cementing might be hard if not impossible to get perfect the first time. Grinding cement flat afterwords also may not be easy, but I've never worked with a grinder and have no idea. This is why at times I wonder if modelling Bryce would be easier or harder. I wish I had more space for more places for track to look natural on mountain ledges rather than it looking like 2 tracks oddly build on mountain plateaus and another track in a short canyon between them. 

The outside mainline will start where the foot crossing is. The inside mainline could, however I want to keep that inside mainline 100% level all the way around, I'd like to do live steam one day and I think having that completely level path might be nice to have around. 

Yes, I work from home, software industry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I would highly recommend using something like the 'ladder system' to work for the track, not using the scenery to support track! There are many threads on here about this subject... 

Do your Home improvement stores carry the items needed to build a ladder ... 

You seem like you are getting honed in on what's what, and narrowing down what you can and can't do.. 

Are you comfortable running the outer most climbing track out over the grass on the rock arch I drew up? It will narrow the grass walking area a bit in that one spot, but may not be a problem depending on how many people are walking back in there during ops sessions. Are you settled on grades. 

I ask these in this order..... 

IF the outer most track can be nailed down - it's position and your comfortable with it, you will be able to then locate the lowest middle track next in evolution here... 

The room remaining will allow you to develop the last rear most upper track to best advantage ... 

This will lead you to knowing where most of the runs go along the fence... 

As long as the end turns fit and your switch locations check out, you should them be ready for the next stage of work, ... 

Meaning you will be in a spot to "start" building = a ladder to support track, beginning at the lowest ends! 

All scenery C.W. screen work can be added and attached to the ladder system after the track is in place and running!! 

Then follow this work around to the house wall and sheds.. 

thoughts - 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Geeez, I wish I was closer!! 

D


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes, I could do a ladder system, if what I had done worked I'd call it good but you're probably right. I wonder if I could get by with 1/2" pipe just to keep a reference point for the center spline of tracks? 

Yes, I can easily have a bridge over the concrete curbing and probably part of the grass, people wouldn't ever walk right there anyway... The bridge would have to be at least 5' long before it started to float above the grass, so I'm not sure if would actually float above the grass as much as it did above the cement curbing, but I really like your drawing and will be implementing that idea. I'm pretty settled on the grades, but I do need to get out my laser level and tweak to perfection, probably will happen when I do the pvc spline. 

Oh, one problem I might have (hopefully not though) is there's a 4" corrugated rain gutter drain pipe that runs along the fence, right where I put the stakes in the ground. I hope I didn't pierce it but the spline might not work if I can't put anything in the ground more than a few inches without possibly piercing that drain pipe. :-/ Maybe pvc attached to cinderblocks that sit on the ground would be a better way to go. :-/ 

Too bad we're not closer, a lot can be learned from helping each other out. Also can be helpful having a second person for many building steps, my wife planted a half dozen plants the other week, it's the first time she did anything in the yard so far, not exactly a green thumb or outdoor hobby person but she can cook...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OK moving on ..... :~} 

Is there any way to move the lowest track,. the curved portion that sneeks in behind the A/C unit - ALL the way back to the gate, nearly below the upper curve by the gate...? 

I see three places that the track crosses itself along the fence section.... right 

I'm trying to get the best grade separation possible with this set-up .... 

Keep encouraging your Wife then!!!!!!!!!! 

How long is it between the 2 curved cement borders we are talking about the bridge spanning over? The peak points of the border ..... 

Do you know even close where the drain pipe might be!?? 

Building a layout will start teaching You how to think outside the box, and then You'll see ways to solve the issues and problems that WILL come up and develop. There will be stuff that You just can not fore see that will pop up. And then you have to deal with it in creative ways to move forward again!! But you will. !!! 

I'll make a drawing or get a pic of what you need to get around the drain pipe issue, no biggy here!!! But tonight, off to town - again soon...... :`{ ........ been there before!!! 

At least we can teach and help each other!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Brandon, 
In the latest GR mag theres a different ladder sytem shown, it might fit your tight spaces better 
I bet you could do a ladder without burying an inch of pipe because the area where it's going is defined by fence and concrete curb. Any lateral forces will be curtailed by the fence and house. 
Use pipe for the foundation with Tees where your risers go, use + Tees to make a latice of support pipes from riser to riser. Your scenery will hide the pipes. I'd stay with 3/4" for strength. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

sd90wlmt: yes, the bottom mainline against the house can be moved around some, the two best options are to reverse/180 on the gate side of the AC unit, near the AC unit and the other best option is to reverse/180 near the gate, either directly below the upper mainline or just to either side of the upper mainline. Why do you ask? 

Yes, the lower track would cross under the upper track in 3 places. First time is going back towards the fence, but then when it comes forward it could pass under going forward and backwards of the upper mainline as well as part of loop back transition. 

I'll post pictures in the morning, but right now it's at 44.75' to raise 10.5 inches which is a 1.955% grade, talk about close right? The upper mainline grade is about 1.4%. 

I need to go measure, but the wavelength is (guessing right now) about 17'. There's about 6.5' between each of fence posts, and each fence post is a 5"x5" post. 

I will dig and try to locate the pipe tomorrow, it shouldn't be too hard to find it... 

I had a thought about how to use pipes without sticking them into the ground and I thought I could just cut 2' or so lengths of pipe and attach all 3 vertical pipes to that 2' base. Hopefully I'll can make sure the base won't fall or tweak too much when it gets covered with hardware cloth and cement, I worry it may. Probably best I locate the pipe below? If anything maybe I secure 2 vertical pipes in the ground and cantaleaver the third vertical pipe, but what a pita that might be... 



Totalwrecker: I do want to add some of the ladder systems like in the latest GR. I've been looking for wood for that and trusses for some time but can't find a source for them and I don't have a table say to rip my own... There's about a 60' of track elsewhere on the layout where I will have been planning on doing a ladder system, and I probably can't do the entire fence section or the layout would look be too ladder driven I think, but yes, that's a really good idea for the tight spaces! 

Oh, yes, your idea for using T's for foundation and + for above is perfect. I've seen people use +'s and others just screw in, is there a better or worse choice? I'm off to search the forums for what screws they used and why people used screws vs +'s....


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh, after looking at chicken wire/hardware cloth, I think (but could be wrong) that chicken wire wouldn't really hold up to concrete well at all. I can get 19 gauge 1/2" mesh which seemed fairly decent but a 2'x25' roll is about $30, not sure how much if it I'll need yet either. Plastic cloth is much, much cheaper and I wonder if it's easier to work with. 

Say I install a pvc 3/4" spline for each track, would it be a bad idea to drape the plastic hardware mesh over the splines, down to the ground/pvc riser base and build the cement on that? Even if just for the first layer? The idea of plastic instead of metal is plastic would 'drape' over the pipe spline top smoother, better, and easier than trying to curve metal over that much distance and curving. I'd still get some metal hardware cloth for areas where mountains would stick up more vertically, need more strength, and so on, but for getting a smooth path for the track, to go the plastic I thought may be the better way, comments? 

I also spoke with a guy in the cement area who said he was a composite engineer for boing and that he did model railroading and he said he'd recommend just using straight portland for the mountains. I mentioned people used sand, liquid fortifier, and fiber but he said sand doesn't do anything except give a different texture (I thought guys did it for texture and something else), fortifier he said was just so cement attached to non-cement or older cement (I thought it was for strength and resist cracking) and fiber he said was for making it easier to apply vertically (I thought it also was for strength and to resist cracking). I'm a bit confused, now since you'd think a composite engineer would know his stuff but I'd also think guys here would know better for what we're doing.... Grrr. 

EDIT: Quick diagrams of some of the things I was talking about...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Big thunderstorms all night, but lots of rain which made digging in the clay easier today. 

I dug and found the pipe buried every 8'-10'. It's anywhere from 6"-10" deep and at least half of the pipes wouldn't have any chance of hitting it. 

How deep should pipes be driven into the ground? Other ladder threads I just checked said 2' while others said deeper than the frost line which is up to 6' deep at times here. 

I also wondered about mixing floating track and buried pvc which made me wonder if I shouldn't make the entire structure/mountain out of floating PVC. Basically create a flat PVC frame that goes the entire distance and then add PVC pipes sticking up from that frame. This would make the entire railroad, including the mountains, "floating". No idea if that's a good or bad idea though... 

Also, since the PVC is mainly to serve as a guide for when I create the mountains, how far of a span between vertical pipes can I get away with? 18", 2', 3', 4'? I found some 3/4" schedule 80 (I think, it's the thinner wall good for 400psi instead of schedule 40/800psi+).


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

John, I was not able to locate the ladder articles you spoke of in GR? I have Aug., and Oct. got here yesterday! 

Brandon - in regards to My asking about moving curves - it was to try and get the best locations and there fore get the best grades for You!! 

I'm getting a grasp of what you want, where you may be set - like a flat grade for L.Steam to run on the main loop at the rear of the house, where you may be more "flexible" to offerings from US on MLS that would like to help you! 

I mean - if I walked in your backyard and worked with the side yard for 30 minutes I could figure it out!! But, ................. 

So,. I'm looking for the options that can give the best results and create a truly unique layout - Yours! 

If you have 6 foot frost lines,then that could be a challenge.. Mine run about 6'' here, so a 12'' hole works for Me.. 
IF you float at the surface, you will need some flexibility at the junction between a floating system and loose ballast to move track and re-ballast yearly!! 

Just planning ahead here... 

If you build trestles and don't own a Table saw, Do you have a 10"-12" band saw to rip wood on, or does this mean you need to go shopping soon for some tools? 

Would cardboard cross-section templates help you to visualize the terrain and track, even if just a few of them where made...? 

IF you use a PVC pipe floating system - sounds OK by me - but consider it settling into the ground when it gets soft - Meaning you can consider some sort of base, such as large brick steps like 12''x12'' or so, to set it on to spread the load and keep it where you started, it will not sink into the ground. I have a rock mountain I built 4 years ago. It has settled about 1 1/2'' so far.... And we don't get much rain / 10''-12'' a year... 

Sched. 40 pipe is far stronger than sched 80, and means sched. 80 would require more vertical supports per foot than sched. 40 does, so your not saving any $$ this way... 

In your drawing of screen - metal & plastic - do not forget to allow for track and train widths, for ballast support, etc. 
I tend to think it may be difficult to smear cement onto a plastic screen, seems like it would keep running away from your work, needing extra support during the cement process. 
Even C.W. has large holes for mortar mix to fall thru... 

Thinking out loud ... again! 

more thinking here maybe...!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Dirk, 
August issue, pg 38. 
Sorry it's more of a spline method than ladder. That part was more of an off hand what if, than use this... 
I was really pushing a lattice base for Brandon's situation. 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So Brandon, - how are you installing the track in the main back yard area, - attached, loose in ballast, on a support system? 

I was thinking of this concept - since I can't get into Your backyard, I could do a "mock-up" of just the 60' section along the fence - Here!!! This way I can better see it also! But we would need to get more measurements to give me, to locate the border compared to the fence. 

This whole area is really inspiring and like a piece of flowing art work. 

Thanks John! got it!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry. ....we are only 95 today wheeeeeeww!! Not much rain anymore......


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Most of the track will be floating in ballast, most people in Utah I've heard had bad luck with secured track and floating has given most everyone absolutely no problems. 

Okay, I did more research on the frost line, local City code says 30" for home foundations. Not sure if that's the actual frost line or not though. 

There luckily is only one "transition" from floating track to what will be "secured" so to say. Inside the train shed will be secured slightly but that's up for debate (I don't want 3 parallel tracks bending in the middle and allowing trains to hit. I may just pin the very middle of each track with a single nail and let it expand out the sides or I may invest in split-jaws expansion pieces for the train shed. 

The mountain track I'd still like to free-float on the cement, and hopefully ballast resting on the cement actually (if I can build the mountains to support say 1" depth of ballast in a U shape. The PVC will sort of hold the track temporarily, a little like most ladder systems, but the pipe I want to use main for when I'm fixing up hardware cloth and eventually cement, I can make sure the slope is kept pretty close to perfect by following the pipe spline (it won't 100% perfect but a few mm here and there won't matter too much, be but it will help vs not having any spline to key off of). Hopefully pipe inside of cement won't have too different of expansion qualities that the pvc cracks the cement? 

Speaking of, I stopped by a local farm store and picked up a 3'x50' 19 gauge 1/2" mesh for $60, half the cost of home depot... I'll stay metal, may take longer but it will hold cement better than the plastic... 

I also picked up 35 10' lengths of schedule 80 pvc. schedule 80 was 1/3rd the cost of schedule 40 3/4" and since in tubing, most of the strength comes from diameter and both 40 and 80 are the same, the extra thickness of 40 is on the inside and thus shouldn't add too much strength. I even tested the strength in the store with some nails and a 4' span and they were actually the same 4" or so drop. 

Dirk, do you glue all your pvc pipes? What happens if you're off on levelling, do you do completely new pipes? I'm going to try screwing pipes together instead of using fittings (except for couplers). A 4 way cross was $2 at home depot, ouch. Against the pvc is mainly for temporary support of the track until the mountains are done, so hopefully going the cheaper/no fittings route isn't going to backfire? 

I need to find screws though, I looked for some #4 2" but couldn't find any, I hope I don't have to pre-drill the holes but I'll try some #6 2" gold screws tomorrow, if it stops raining, wow, it's like I live on the coast right now.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well I hauled water or watered plants all day, 

You on the other hand got allot done!!!! Great 

I saw 5 different SD9043's today pass thru here!!!!! Woohooo!! I have started logging unit numbers and even dates for My layout for locos I see go by!! Will choose from that list when I build my own locos!! 

Yes, in My case I do glue all joints, do not want them coming apart. There is an inverted 'T' in the ground in the cement / hole , 3/4'' riser - these are all cut to height and checked for grade one to the other over many risers, and checked - then I glue on a x-ross on top. ... note - I only use usually a clear glue for PVC, not much use in using the purple primer too. not worried about a water leak.... - 

If I get off or need a later change - up or down - the riser pipe gets cut. Add a new coupling and reset. Or if I can not fit in a whole coupling - I have cut them in 1/2 length wise and glued on a 1/2 on each side checking for grade, add small # 6 x 1/2'' screws - hex head - and then do the other side. It is not a big to deal at all to make changes or tweek a mistake on my part or a minor grade change. Here x-rosses run $1.79 each, I buy a box of 25 at a time, some times even 2 boxes. same price tho.... This single piece is the most expensive part of My hy-brid system that I build, on a per foot cost basis... 

Your using screws to secure the pipe should work great. You are only using them during the initial build cycle, then the cement will take over and form a strong shell!! Even the cement if thick enough should be stronger than the pipe... plus it will be shielded somewhat by your base structure and also ballast above that! So expansion should be nil... 

Also I use a 1/8'' drill bit in a second drill gun to pre-drill holes for screws. It is just faster than waiting for self drilling screws to get their job done. Easier to align parts too. 

It should be pretty easy and user friendly for You to just place a pipe next to a riser support and screw it in place. Or clamping several at a time to set/check your final grade - then screw together, and go back and cut off the riser tops when done... 

For me I have to pre-set all riser heights and cut them before any gluing of x-rosses on top ..so it is some more work, but a level makes it pretty fast. Once I know a given grade, I figure the amount of spacer I need to offset a level, find a scrap steel strip and clamp it to one end, This way the spacer is always on the lower end, - I can work My way up hill or down hill. I use a 48'' level and 24'' centers for risers. Once I got going this worked out really well, I double check during early layout and final work also with a laser level so I start and finish a section and stay on target. 

Then I keep notes on ALL the work for every section of track I build.......... 

Keep at it!! 
Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Also, I sometime just use plastic shims to adjust locations when I add the pipe runners, setting them on top of a x-ross 'arm'.. 

Seems there is a ready supply of abs or pvc plastic scraps here and any thickness one might need. 

I also use these in .040'', .060'', .080''. or as needed to create My super-elevation on curves!! Of course on the outside runner only.......

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Brandon, 
Houses built on sand..... ancient building code .... not a wise choice to save on your foundation. 
Schedule 80 is only suitable for irrigation because it gets brittle. Spray paint it after you get it put together, oh and keep it out of the sun until it's placed. Susceptable to UV damage. The paint will slow aging. 
You know how you can score and snap plastic, that screw hole will be the weakest part of your assembly. It's one thing to save on the pipe, don't compound it with screws.... Schedule 40 would be more forgiving. Use clamps to set your grades, mark and trim before gluing. If you're floating on ballast, you can do final leveling in the rock. 

Don't forget to add the ballast thickness when figuring clearances. 

Tucson has a store full of used tools, I bought a Sears Benchtop table saw for $250 and a Contractor grade 14" Sears bandsaw for $300. Both have given 6+ years of service while sitting on a deck with no walls, just a roof. Monsoons get them wet, but after drying out they labor on. You can tell the wife you'll sell them off after the building is done.... 

Your layout reminds me of the HO layouts I used to draw in school... 

Sorry but I think cross section determins strength, not diameter, but since you're committed, it's a heck of a therory! 

I offer suggestions and share what I know, Happy Rails. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

John, Good points, ... crap. :-/ 

Clamps for setting grade are a really good idea. 

The biggest goal for this year is getting the train shed done, but that can probably be done in a few days once I can find a table saw. Money to buy it is one thing but finding space to store it is another, my wife is already throwing things out because there isn't enough room. 

I could probably find enough time to do some or at least the first layer of cement if needed, I have 1.5 months if winter comes early. But I completely forgot the pipe goes brittle, I'll paint it and/or cover it. It's probably not a bad ideal to put burlap or something else over mountain sections to get an idea of what it will look like. 

I still have some years to go before I have all the experience I probably should before taking on this project but I probably have more time now than I will for another 20-30 years. I've made several mistakes, but it helps me learn for 'next time'. Electrical conduit/grey pipe probably would have been a better choice..... 

So possibly another bad choice, but is it good or bad to have some pipes in the ground at different depths? If I get some pipes 30"+ in the ground but others only 4"? Will this just bend and break a concrete mountain to pieces?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

In my car barn I was too cheap to hide track in it, so I found steel flashing z stips. My Harbor Freight brad nailer shot the brads right through it. The Trex strips had crumbled from the heat.... 

All my stationary saws are outside. They get rained on, but never flooded so little in the way of salts get in the motors. Your air quality may affect this. Or I've just been lucky! Your milage may vary. 

If you can, get a digital level, I broke down and got the one Greg E suggested. Without benchwork as a reference grades can hard to determine looking down on 'em and you won't be able to get far enough away to see them from the sides. Where I thought a new location was flat, I actually had a 2.5% grade!. $50 well spent. 

The older I get, the less I know. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've been debating getting that level as well... Right now I have a rotary laser level, have tape marks no the fence posts. The laser level has been accurate to less than 1/8". I've set it up about 10 times for various things and I recheck marks in different locations (it's not a self levelling) but everything has matched up where it should so I'm fairly comfortable with thinking I've got the wrong rise/runs, but double checking isn't a bad idea... 

This morning I'll try pounding a test pvc pipe 30" down. It's rained every day for a week so this is probably as good as time to try as any.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Spent the morning replacing all the wooden stakes with pvc pipe and a really basic ladder system. Most of the vertical pipes aren't attached (only every fifth or so) and tonight I'll pull out the laser level and set the pipe 2" below the desired track height. This will allow for 1" of concrete and 1" of ballast. 

I'm short on pipe (need another 100') and I was having problems curving the 3/4" so I'm going to get about 50' of 1/2" just to help on the two 9.5' diameter bends. 

I did use the double drill method, one with a bit and the other with a philips head and 2" gold screws, I also tested placing some hardware cloth but I really need to get all the pipes level and vertical pieces cut to the right length before I do a whole lot of that. 

I also hammered 70% of the pipe down over 30". I could push most down 6"-1' with just my hands and then I hammered them the rest. I noticed at about 30" the ground went much harder, different soil or something. The pipe that could hit the 4" corrugated pipe I only put in 6" and there were some only 6"-1' down because there's a sprinkler line in some areas too. I really hope I didn't break the pipe anywhere, I'll find out tomorrow....


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Stayed up late laser levelling it all, 1am now, started at 7:30pm. Would have been done at midnight except I realized one track I didn't compensate the 2" lowering for the cement and ballast, doh.. :-/ It's done now. Pictures to come tomorrow. Good news though, all my previous laser level lines matched up perfectly yet again, always a good sign but I spent an hour checking and rechecking it all before making marks and cuts. There will also be a slight variance on the fence side vs house side. The fence side has the 2" lowered spline for cement and ballast whereas the house side has no 2" lowered compensation since that will get trusses, no mountains, and this I want to keep it at the higher height since the poles will be used to run trains until I can get all the trusses built for that next year. 

Tomorrow I hope to finish up a couple remaining cuts and start working on hardware cloth testing and placing for mountains... So nice to have a 3 day weekend!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

You realize, don't you, that you'll have to do something with your AC units next spring.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

The pipe that could hit the 4" corrugated pipe I only put in 6" and there were some only 6"-1' down because there's a sprinkler line in some areas too. I really hope I didn't break the pipe anywhere, I'll find out tomorrow.... 

I did that once, it didn't take long to figure out that I had broken the sprinkler line. I knew I hit something, turned the sprinkler system on and soon noticed that water was bubbling up where it shouldn't have been. With all the holes I dug and posts I pounded in, I guess having just one break in the sprinkler line isn't too bad.
Bob


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

There's more room around the AC units than the pictures really show... I had them worked on last year and one was gutted and replaced (new compressor) and even if a full unit was replaced it wouldn't be that much trouble, I'll also be able to remove parts of the track including around the AC unit in case sprinklers or other stuff is damaged. I wish I had more room, for now I'll make due.  

Just ran the sprinklers, no problems, *whew*. Or at least none that are apparent first off... 

I still need to fix the outside mainline, the hill going up I need to adjust 2" for cement and ballast still... I also need to set the height for the pipes running along the house, I'll have to use a string for this though since the laser level can't shoot through metal objects. 

New photos for today..


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So you pulled a late night and still got up for more today!! 

I got about 2 hours in on My layout....yesterday evening is all. 

Looking good tho, and it becomes easier to see where your going now!! 

Soon you'll get even more excited and with mountains looming on the horizon, it will just blossom from there!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Just thought I'd post a picture of what I've been working on lately. 

20"x50"x29'4" train shed. 

 

The cost of this shed keeps going up faster than I could imagine, nearly a thousand, wow. The panels that slide down along the front have been installed but were removed so I could finish installing the shelves inside. Tonight I hope to get the roof on and tar paper installed. Should be all shingled, painted, and finished by this weekend with the exception of the portholes where the engines will go in and out, I'm still thinking about how to do this yet keep it secure from breaking in. I'll have 4 motion sensors installed in it and tied into its own partition on my security system. 

I also won't be keeping engines or anything of high value inside. Mainly store some cars I'll be using for a few weeks or the occasional engine if I'll be taking a break until the next day. I've decided to fill at least one level with a bunch of 16' long pipes. 12' long 2x4's that I use to build a covered structure over the pond during the winder and other yard items that just sit on the floor of the garage right now taking up needed space. Not much room left for a shed in the yard so something long like this will work good for clean but long items.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Been gone Brandon..? 

Do you live near a mountain at all? 

Big Box Train Store in process, @ Brandon's !! 

Nice !! :~} 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Just getting my feet wet. 

I live at the base of a mountain, but in the SLC area most everyone does... I actually was up in a canyon last weekend, fall colors are out in force right now, very, very beautiful. I should have taken some pictures.. 

Hmm, now I should have thought about that! I wonder if I could have picked up some metal display cases with locking doors and used those instead... ;-) 

Once I put the panels back in the shed really comes to life and looks like a barn, I also came up with an idea for mounting the roof and aligning it just right but I need to go drop mail some items for work before I can start working on the shed tonight.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

the name of the mountain is ..................... ( fill in blank ) 

D


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Hmm, not exactly sure how to answer this, Several??? I'm actually only a few miles at most from the tri-corner intersection of the "Basic and Range", "Colorado Plateau" and "Middle Rocky Mountains" regions, and as you might know those three ranges cross several state borders. 

The Wasatch range (Timanogus is the most famous peak and is about 10 miles east-southeast and what I see when looking out my office window) is the most spoken of range to describe SLC and the cities nearby and the most beautiful range in my view, however the Oquirrh Range is out my back windows. I technically reside on the bench of an old inactive volcano that's now considered part of the Oquirrh mountains however the main core of the Orquirrh mountains are about 15 miles west me. The Uintahs are east-northeast about 30 miles. 

Here's what I see out of the front of my home during fall/winter/spring: http://utahpictures.com/images/Various1/smtimpanogosSide2.jpg 

So tonight I got three of the 4 roof panels hinged and installed. I ran out of the light before I could get the last one finished as it needs some extra sawing to cut it to the right length and I just didn't have the light to do that cut. I probably have less than 2 hours left for framing, hour or so to look for weak areas and strengthen for insects, voles and vandals, a couple hours to tarpaper and shingle the roof, and 3 or so hours of painting to do. If all goes well the shed will be done by Sunday. It's getting colder and I need to start to think about bringing plants in for the winter and preparing the yard for its vacation. 

I should be able to work on the hardware cloth/mountains during the winter. And I'll be able to start tracking down a source for all the small dimension wood to make trusses out of. :-/ Lots of trusses..


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well baaaaaaaaaaaare with me then,... 

As you have shared you have had fish without names, and now a RR without a name... My mind has been working on ideas in that vein!! just hope your dog has a name!! :~} ( it does ) 

Try this on for size .... 

"Red Rock & Middle Rocky Mountain RR" 
- or - 
"Red Rock & Timanogus Mountain RR" 

Basically trying to tie together some land feature in your area and your incredible scenery coming up, into a workable and likeable R.R. name for You!!! One that roles off your tongue easily.. 
Kind of like the 1st one.... :~} describes your scenery well... 

You need a name Brandon....for your layout!!!!!!! 

Dirk


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.miningutah.com/id229.html 

I didn't want to highjack this tread ,a little bit history just 10 mh away and a possible name for your RR.

In 84 the whole manning canyon area was open to offroading you could go up all the way up to the Merkur Goldmine (formerly owned by Getty's oil) following the old Railroad threstle and their sharp curves ,many RRspikes could be found along the way.....

Manfred


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

http://www.miningutah.com/id229.html 

Just 10 mh in a south/westerly direction you find Manning Canyon,the RRgrade went all the way to the Mercur goldmine(former Getty's oil),in 85 the whole area south and west of your house was open to offroading,i used to follow the old grade all the way to the top,some very sharp curves and a great view of utah lake and surrounding area was the reward!

Didn't want to hijack this tread but you might find the right name for your RR in the above posted link!

Manfred


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Hijacking always welcome Manfred. 

There's a 20' high railroad berm about 500' south of my home. For some time I thought it was part of the Tintic branch but when I just went to look up maps the Tintic branches appear to be about 20 miles south and went from Springville to the Tintic mines. Manfred, any ideas what the branch was that broke off near Lehi, headed west on the north side of Saratoga and Eagle Mountain then went out through Cedar Fort. Maybe it was the UP Fairfield Branch? 

There's a park planned where the railroad berm is and the plan is to call it "Shay Park" which would be fun. They're talking about giving it a railroad theme as well which I'd be for. If only we could get them to establish a garden railroad there...  If not, people can stop by my place. 

Oh, the name.. what's in a name... I'll probably not pick a name until next year when the track, mountains, and pretty much everything is installed. I don't know exactly where the theming will go, although name changes are common in the railroad mentality.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

The RR your'e talking about is the Salt lake& Western Railway (UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD) SP,LA & SL(1905) resource:Utah Ghost rails Stephen carr/ Robert edwards pg 124

The line coming from Lehi-Clinton-Reeves- Cedar fort -Fairfield -5 mile pass- Topliff(Limestone quarry)just south off 5 mh pass) passing Rush valley -Del Monte-Boulter/Black Rock Canyon (right on the Juab/Ut county Line!

Manfred 

Pg 127 Salt Lake & Mercur RR

From Fairfield station to Mercur canyon (5 miles-straight) the SL&Mercur RR had to snake through the hills 9.5 miles to make it up to the Mercur Goldmining District.(2000 feet in elev 4.5% grades)


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Catching up in reading and amazed at how much you've done Brandon. Dirk mentioned a "Cement Blob" method to make mountains and I happened to have bookmarked one. Link is: 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/MLS-Topic-Article/DennisRayon/Mountains.pdf. Hope that helps 
Alan W.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Oops I saw that someone already gave you that link. Must have jumped a page :-(


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

No worries, thanks Alan! 

Yesterday one of my water heaters had it's T&P release and I've been working on repairing the water heater and on the train shed. 

Good news is I have water sensors in critical places so the alarm went off and I text message. Luckily it only dumped about 5 gallons and the basement isn't finished but about 10 bachmann passenger car boxes were water soaked and went into the track. The styrofoam though kept the cars safe since they didn't absorb the water. 

I learned quite a bit about water heaters in the last 24 hours and can now check off 'know how to drain and replace parts of a water heater that they claim only professionals should do'. I think my generation is becoming lazy and would rather let someone else do something than taking the time to learn things that really aren't that hard. I'm a bit worried why it failed, I do have a pressure release valve before the first water heater that should allow expansion and there's no check valve on the home,.. Maybe the City did something stupid again (or construction workers since several homes are under construction nearby). But alas that's a tangent and this is a train forum. 

So here's the current state of the train shed. I still need to get the drip edge and shingles but I'll have to go to a roofing store since the big box don't carry the brand and color of shingles I have on my home and I'd prefer they match. 

 
Ignore the fact that the roof is different colors. I was testing out colors and knew the roof would be tar papered and shingled over so those sheets made a good canvas to test colors and get the wifes approval. She only liked the cream, I didn't miss seeing the aqua blue and dark blue go.  

She settled on french country side colors, so cream'ish trim, red siding, and blue accent. Not sure what will be painted blue yet. She did said she thought I did a bad job painting and needed a better brush that was also bigger. I'm not a painter, so some constructive criticism is a good thing. Hopefully I can hide my bad paint strokes with a second coating. 

I did make the roof one piece at the moment. I can still lift it as once piece, my wife probably couldn't, but once I add the shingles I imagine lifting will be hard and I'll split the roof into two liftable sections. I had it as two for a bit and it was very easy to lift. 

So to do:
Drip edge
Tar paper
Shingle
Add locks
plug any holes to stop insects/voles
Add a flexible drip edge for the top of the roof. (I found one at HD and I really should have installed it before now since I can't easily access that part of the roof. I'll have to knock the pins out on the door hinges I used for the roof to get access but that's doable)
And finally, make the portholes for the trains to go in and out of (This will be the hardest thing I have yet to do and figure out.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So - 1st - with all the new R.R. names running around here, You will have lots to 'save' and 'choose' from when You are ready for a name for the layout!! 

And by this weekend with no rain or water heater problems, you'll have yourself a new train shed!! 

And you are moving along well Brandon, then back to the fun stuff! 

Dirk


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, the second water heater also appears that it may need it's T&P replaced too. Apparently when you pull the test leaver some jump can get stuck in the O-ring and slow leak as well and it's dripping about a cup of water a day. I'll replace it next weekend if it's still having problems. :-/ 

I also managed to get sick during this and didn't leave the house for 5 days. Finally I was able to get out Saturday and then yesterday I did some more work on the train shed. 

 

I also think I have a good design for the train doors/portals using drop bars. I'll play around with some things tonight. 

Oh, and I need to figure out how to do a ridge cap or something else to cover the screws along the peak of the roof. I used 3/4" screws rather than nails for securing the shingles. Took a little longer and cost more but I couldn't find 3/4" roofing nails and I didn't want a bunch of nails sticking through the roof.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, that is looking really sweet!!! 

Flashing, need a metal piece that covers both the top edge of the shingles and goes up the wall siding a couple inches and is chalked or sealed to prevent water from getting behind the flashing, hence under your shingles.. 

I might even consider adding like a 1'' x 3'' wood trim, painted to match, over the flashing on the wall to help protect it. well sealed also!! 

Nice colors also!! and ... what is the red siding paint..? 

Dirk


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The roof has a tar paper roof and a metal drip edge along the sides and front and the back/peak (where it hinges) is a rubber roofing liner that's flexible so the roof can hinge (You can see part of it hanging down 6" behind the shed. No water can get inside the shed, I just need something cosmetic to hide the screws. 

Sherwin Williams paints, red color is sequoia and the cream color is navajo white.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 08 Oct 2012 12:05 PM 
The roof has a tar paper roof and a metal drip edge along the sides and front and the back/peak (where it hinges) is a rubber roofing liner that's flexible so the roof can hinge (You can see part of it hanging down 6" behind the shed. No water can get inside the shed, I just need something cosmetic to hide the screws. 

Sherwin Williams paints, red color is sequoia and the cream color is navajo white.

 


Brandon,

That's a nice looking shed. But I do have a question regarding how you get access to the items in the shed. Is your only access from each end? What if you have a derailment in there? Just curious.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The red side panels slide in and out from the top via 3/4" deep grooves in the edges of the vertical 2x4's. If the roof is locked down and locked (Look at the eye bolts on the under side of the roof and the top outside edges of the vertical 2x4's) then they can't be slide out and the items inside will be safe (and I'll be installing contact relays and motion sensors into a partition of my security alarm). If the roof is open then the side panels slide up and out very easily.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 08 Oct 2012 12:34 PM 
The red side panels slide in and out from the top via 3/4" deep grooves in the edges of the vertical 2x4's. If the roof is locked down and locked (Look at the eye bolts on the under side of the roof and the top outside edges of the vertical 2x4's) then they can't be slide out and the items inside will be safe (and I'll be installing contact relays and motion sensors into a partition of my security alarm). If the roof is open then the side panels slide up and out very easily. This answered my question. Again, nice shed and plenty of room!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

got it Brandon - a stand alone building here!! great plannng also!! 

Will just a piece of drip edging work for you? or a thin painted trim strip, 1/4'' or 3/8'' thick... by 1 1/2 in. wide, and finish nails... 

just ideas..


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

It rained a lot this weekend, so I worked on cleaning the garage, a promise I made to my wife that I'd do after I finished the shed. Garage cleaned, so today I worked on the hardware cloth for the mountains to 'test' things out. 

First thing I've realized is the amount of detail in terms of space requirements for the mountains in the narrow area I have just didn't seem to work. The hardware cloth was easier to work with than I thought but I went through a 4'x100' roll faster than I expected, maybe it was only 50'? 

To be honest I'm not sure what to think. Granted this is my first attempt but I wish I had a mountain artist who's done the hardware cloth thing before to help me out. The good news though is the pvc pipe spline to support the hardware cloth does appear to be very stable and will hold a lot of weight(cement) when it's applied. Hopefully to the mountain won't frost heave either since the pipes are buried into the ground 2' in most areas. 

Here are a lot of pictures. I have no idea how they'd turn out so I took a lot, hoping to get enough detailed views that what I'm trying to do comes through. 

Most gaps between hardware cloth sections will have bridges for those spans but there are also areas missing hardware cloth(I need more cloth) that will get cloth, mainly under the switch that has the turnout crossing the grass by the AC units as well as the endpoints of the mountains.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I think by what can be seen here anyway, that you may need to set a safe spacing for cement and tracks .. 

I know this is not set in rock yet... 

If You add cement over the screen, how thick will it become? How much room do you still need for safe passage of trains!? 

Dirk - http://dmsry.blogspot.com/


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I will be making a clearance template in the next few days so I can mount it to a flat bed and run it through the different areas. So far I've designed the layout and shed to support 6.5" wide and 10" high. This should allow a k-27 and the USA auto carriers and container cars if I ever did buy some (or any visitors). I am limited at a 9.5' diameter so I'm not sure a K-27 or other locos could or would run on the track well but I'm trying not to corner myself knowingly. 

I'm planning on a first layer of 1/2" thick cement and then doing additional layers where more strength or detail is needed. I'm not sure what material I'll use. Some people love that hypertoofa stuff, lightweight and all and can be cut with a utility knife yet holds up fairly well over the years. Not as long as cement but it's an idea. I hope to try some cement work before winter hits, it's going to be close (2-3 weeks out I imagine for cement test work). I don't want to do all the cement work before next spring just in case I come up with a better idea during the winter. Snow might collect on the hardware cloth an give a small vision of what it would look like cemented -- also a good structural test.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I was putting christmas lights up before the first snow hit and got a few aerial shots...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

That's always fun to do!! A little different view for a change......... 

Get any down the side yard? 

Dirk - DMS Ry. snow yet? How cold ...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I decided to try out some mortar mix on free standing 1/2" mesh hardware cloth or just doing the 'blob' method. 

 

I applied the mortar in 4 different ways. The far right was a dry 'blob' attempt, it didn't work well at all once it dried because pieces didn't connect to eachother well and it just fell apart. The second (middle) was mild wet mix that was smoothed by hands (or cement gloves actually) and then I used a flat blade screwdriver at first and then switched to a 1/4" thick yard stakes edge to pat the cement to create the ridges. The far left was a wet blob'ish test with little or no touching after the cement blobs were put over it. The top middle peaks were a _VERY_ wet blob mix. 

Below are some blob attempts with a mix of techniques as well but with no hardware cloth. The picture below was a more typical wetness on the bottom and then a very wet mix on top, you can see the water/creaming going on the top section. Interesting effect when it was this wet, I have no idea if that's good or bad for longevity of the mortar though? Comments? Also you can see the ridges are more 'straight' when doing it on regular wetness mortar mix while the very wet kind of takes on it's own character since it's more liquid.
 


Below, you can see a normal wetness mix (tallest peak) and then a very wet mix to it's left. Interestingly thing though was the next day when I worked on them, they both handled the dry carving the same and looked quite different.
 
 

The next day I went out and used the yard stake edge again as a 1/4" wide saw/sander to see how well I could create the same ridge effects on a more drier mortar. It worked fairly well but it was less random doing this sanding technique vs the 'patting' technique with the same edge. There was one crack that developed overnight and I broke a stake in half and where it split with a sharp edge, I used that sharp edge to carve out channels where the crack was as well as I tested adding some other crevices. I also tested doing deep cutting away between the far left and middle area. It was practically impossible to get the stepped ridges look on concave surfaces when it was dry, but I do want concave areas of mountains, cliifs, and so on, I'm not sure what will method I will find to do that? 

Below I also tried sanding/sawing the previously very wet peaks. When sanding it was hard to get a ridge less than 1/2" tall while when wet you could get 1/16" or 1/18" tall ridges quite easily. Sanding as you'll see got ridges, but in less defined ways. Take a look at the far left sides top where I tried to create ridges vs the middle section when the ridges were made while wet. The dry carving ridges are about 3x as tall, some of this was on purpose to see what tall ridges would be like since I would need a variety. Tall ridges are easier to add when drier than when wet. It's almost backwards, add your find detail when wet and then broader details when dry, that's problematic when you think about it.



Ridges from this angle are all the saw/sanded method. Much larger ridges...



Below, compared to the original blob towers these were really changed when I sanded, but the two on the left are sanded, the one on the right was wet the 'padding' method. The dry sanding peaks you'll notice are more rounded were as the wet padding method still has more line/straight ridges. I'll need to go look at the monument valley and bryce canyon photos to see which is more accurate, but I'm also interested in visually people like between these two ridge methods.
 
 

Overall things turned out a little better than I expected on my first attempt. 

Thoughts on these tests for realism and so on?


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 08 Nov 2012 03:57 PM 
That's always fun to do!! A little different view for a change......... 

Get any down the side yard? 

Dirk - DMS Ry. snow yet? How cold ... 
No! I was going to once I finished getting the lights done but forgot. I'll be back up in a couple weeks to replace a few lights I think, I'll try to get some shots then.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Blobs look cool - go ahead and add some color to 'em,.. to bring 'em to "LIFE".. 

Then you'll really like them!! add some different color washes darker over lighter to bring out the details... subtle washes here 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Brandon, 
One trick to represent cut rock, blastered and cheiseled, is to use heavy duty crumpled Aluminum foil. 
Slap a blob on your foil and press to your hill, wait until it's half hard and remove foil. This can be used in cuts and tunnels.... 

Good to see you experimenting 

John


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## FHER_operator (Sep 7, 2012)

Great work on your layout and train shed. This thread is really inspirational! 


-Steven


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

At Home Disapointment I found powdered tints for stucco that I mixed with cement for color. They have several earthen colors. Experience tells me I should have mixed the color in water then added to mix, lumps and clumps! 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

It's summer! (almost) 

I've done a lot of reviewing of my layout and thinking over the winter and I can now say that I just have too much track and complexity. If I had to do it over again I'd rip out more yard (which the wife won't go for) or just do a single mainline so I can have more scenery than rail. I also just got back from a few weeks in Europe and I now envy their rail system so I'd like to model a layout after the rail lines and scenery in Germany. But that will be for another time if I move again. I'm far enough along that I'll stick with what I have for now and enjoy it anyway. 

My plans for the next month are to begin the mountain work which is the next big hurdle I have to do. I don't think the "all hardware cloth" plan will work, I'm going to have to come up with a solid but thin surface to attach the hardware cloth to that will be close to but not touch the fence. I can't believe how little space I left myself for 3 tracks that are at different heights.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Good to see you back. 
Instead of trying to run scenery up the back wall/fence in side yard, I'd look into wide panoramic pictures(photos) mounted on vinyl (waterproofing). It's not really an area you can step back and get the big picture anyway. 

Plan big and simplify .... been there too often, but no shame and I'd rather dream big. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've come up with a plan to build the mountains. Since there are pipes under where the mountains go, preventing me from digging or even placing some supports where I want, I'll be using the fence post holes that should be below the frost line as my foundation. I drilled some holes and epoxied some bolts into the current fence cement and then poured some cement on top and placed some brackets in the cement that will hold 2x4's. I then have treated 2x4's cut to length that fit between each fence post and put vertical 1.5"x1.5" (basically trex railing pieces I was given) to give the anchor the hardware mesh to for building up and supporting the mountain shells. I'll cut the trex pieces down once I've got the hardware cloth and mountains figured out. 

Here's a photo of the footings. 



And here is an idea for the mountains. It's pretty hard to tell where the tracks are in relation to the hardware cloth and where they are in and out of the tunnels/mountains. I think a video might help so I'll try to do that tonight. You'll also notice that the vertical trex pieces are not all straight. I didn't know if I could get them all perfect so my plan is to get some 1/2" or 3/4" electrical steel pipe and $.20 U brackets and attach them to the vertical uprights and use the combined strength of all brackets to keep the hole mountain in line for about $20.







These mountains are much larger than I was going to do but I think they will look better. This was just a 30 minute job at placing the hardware cloth to give me an idea of what might be possible but I'm not completely thrilled. I do really like the valley the center track does down and I think having the line closest the fence hidden for 15', then the middle track that becomes the lower back track and hidden for 20' does help de-clutter the visual appearance. I'll have to make access panels though due to the long lengths of tunnels. 

I don't like how you might be able to see daylight through the tunnel closest to the fence gate and I'm worried about the size of tunnel entrances in a few places. Having two tracks at slightly different heights that might need one big portal when the tunnel is higher and open inside might not look good as you'd see too much of the inside. I need to work on adjusting the tracks to see if I can separate the entrances so they are individual portholes. 

The track closest to the fence will probably be adjust to be straight and I'll get a track expanding section (split-jaw type) to deal with thermal expansion but that will probably be the easiest way to spread tracks apart. 

I'm also wondering about getting some line U channel aluminium for the track sections in the tunnel so if the cars derail they won't fall into hard to reach places in the tunnel. I've also wondered about HVAC sheet metal??? Thoughts? My other option would use the diamond hardware cloth and just mud up my own U shape walls with mortar. 

Also, I'm wondering if I shouldn't get shelving brackets from the hardware store and attach them to my trex railing/mountain supports and use them to support the rail lines when they within 13" (largest size I found) of the fence. I figure that would be plenty strong to hold the trains and either HVAC sheel metal for tunnel bottom and sides or the cement mortal U channel tunnel bottom and sides.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've got 8 hours today and the full day tomorrow to work on the railroad! Finally! 

I've decided that I'll make a flat "slab" as I'm calling it, made of diamond mesh and mortar, that will go under where the track is to go. The "slabs" will be actually be U shaped so that if the trains derail while inside the mountain, cars and parts won't fall into the abyss of the inside of the mountains. 

The slap will be sit on top of the pipe and go all the way to the vertical 2x2's that go along the fence. To help add support for the slabs and trains, as the pvc pipe was to be temporary and removed once the track is held up (due to the fact that the pvc pipes can't be pushed down below the frost line as other pipes run below this section of track and frost heave would cause problems with those pvc pipes), I'll be using angle brackets that will actually hold the weight of the slabs and trains for years to come. 

Home depot sells metal angle brackets for $.99 and up, but Ikea sells these polypropylene brackets for $.50. I need about 50 angle brackets in total and about 20 of those could be the size Ikea sells, though other spans of 14" only come in the metal sizes. 

For the materials exports out there, which will hold up better over the years? These metal ones or polypropylene? 

 

I went and bought a few angle brackets that will support a diamond mesh and mortar "slab" that will


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

"For the materials exports out there, which will hold up better over the years? These metal ones or polypropylene? " 

I flipped a coin, it came up heads.... 

Variables.... 

If kept dry the metal bracket should last a lifetime... how long the plastic? I dunno. 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Plastic is 6"x8". The brackets will be inside a shell of the mountain, though I can't guarantee no water could ever get in and sit during major storms. I'm looking for something that lasts 30+ years. 

I was also wondering about the span, does every 18" seem to much? Or maybe I alternate between the two types of angle braces? -- Except for when I need the longer spans of 14" where those have to be the metal probably, unless spacing 36" between angle braces would be safe, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be worth the $2 * (# bracers) to have a problem later that would be next to impossible to fix..


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I found this vinyl siding ($7 per 16' length) that I'll put on both sides of the track, 10" apart, and it curves quite nicely so if any cars derail they won't fall off into the shell of the mountain and it won't scrape the cars up either. Ignore the bend in the middle, this was a test piece that I folded on purpose to see how well it recovers -- it doesn't recover well.  

I also picked up one of those metal 2x4 studs for $3 and thought I'd see how well it works for bridges. They bend quite easily unfortunately and I imagine it will rust quite quickly, but still I'm going to experiment for fun. 

 


Edit: Oops, forgot to mention, the metal lath is just sitting there and is obviously not very level/flat at all. I need to place the angle braces and then the lath will rest on top of those braces and will have the front edge cut to contour the track inside (often along the inside of the mountain shell) but I just put it in this picture to show what I was planning on using and to get comments in case I'm missing something important about the material or my idea of use.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Two more pictures for today. This is the hardie siding material, I'm wondering if using it for the "slab"or as front and back sides (in place of the vinyl) would be a better idea. It's cement based, about the same cost as the diamond lath per linear foot, and the vinyl. 

Here is the link to it on the lowes website: http://www.lowes.com/pd_122359-34299-615518_0__?productId=3150963 Although it says cedar it's fiberboard.

 

 

Downside would be it's hard to cut as it's cement based. I'd have to hopefully find the right jigsaw blade that works with this stuff, but I imagine there would eb one.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 20 Jul 2013 10:31 PM 
Two more pictures for today. This is the hardie siding material, I'm wondering if using it for the "slab"or as front and back sides (in place of the vinyl) would be a better idea. It's cement based, about the same cost as the diamond lath per linear foot, and the vinyl. 

Here is the link to it on the lowes website: http://www.lowes.com/pd_122359-34299-615518_0__?productId=3150963 Although it says cedar it's fiberboard.

 

 

Downside would be it's hard to cut as it's cement based. I'd have to hopefully find the right jigsaw blade that works with this stuff, but I imagine there would eb one. 

Brandon,

Forget the jigsaw......buy an inexpensive circular saw (Skil Saw "type"). Buy some carborundum, re-inforced blades. I used a heavy duty #77, 7 1/4" Skil Saw with the 7 1/4 carborundum blades to cut concrete, slumpstone blocks when I built my walls thirty years ago. It will go through that Hardie siding like hot knife through butter! I'll post a photo in the morning to show you what I used...blades and saw.

http://www.globalspec.com/industria...ndum_blade


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

tho not 30 years old,.. 

in today's world they make a cement blade that sort of does not wear, cuts just as fast thru thick block as a wood blade thru a 2x4.... 

easily handles the fiber cement based house siding products...I use one all the time! 

Dirk


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 20 Jul 2013 11:33 PM 
tho not 30 years old,.. 

in today's world they make a cement blade that sort of does not wear, cuts just as fast thru thick block as a wood blade thru a 2x4.... 

easily handles the fiber cement based house siding products...I use one all the time! 

Dirk I'm "old school" Dirk AND OLD!!!


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I have a circular saw that works but the board that lays flat for the track to go on would need to be cut with a jig saw as the front edge isn't straight, the front edge will need to follow the inside curve of the mountain shell that will cover the track...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

GeeeeZ !! I hope I did not wake you guys!! ha 

Gary, I understand old school, sometimes hard to learn this dog new tricks, ... 
,.... BTW,....... you are not much older than I am.............. 

Think of cutting segments to create a 'curve' Brandon, and since they are under or behind your shell, they really do not need to be perfect...add a screen over shell - and then mortar stucco mix, you'll never know by the time you get to the finished mountain surface... 

the stuff cuts pretty easy actually, I cut weird angles all the time.. I think You will be fine... 

Dirk


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Brandon on 20 Jul 2013 11:39 PM 
I have a circular saw that works but the board that lays flat for the track to go on would need to be cut with a jig saw as the front edge isn't straight, the front edge will need to follow the inside curve of the mountain shell that will cover the track... http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-72539...B0002VM25S 
Let her rip!!


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's what I did so far today. I'll be going out and doing more, not sure what Yet. Probably doing double checking levelling and playing around with the mash & lath to see where I might want to change mountains to, again. I will need to pain the hardie cedearmill plants black but that will be another day. 

I am leaning towards using these cedarmill siding planks for just the bottom and the vinyl siding panels for the sides of the tunnels, as the vinyl is less likely to scratch derailed cars. 

I'm a bit torn on removing the pvc pipe closest the fence and for the lower/middle track. The pvc pipe has become about 3/16" out of laser level at some areas when I checked it last week, plus I made the lower track 3/4" lower than the pvc and the upper track closest to the fence 3/4" higher so there is now an 11.5" span between the two tracks where they cross -- so the pvc is inaccurate everywhere except the track closest to the grass. The vertical pvc pipes also press very easily in to the ground, so much if any mortar will cause them to sink -- and the mountain shell will be supported fully by the back structure except for the front pvc spline/ladder.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Got the cedarmill (cement fiber board) painted (black) and I worked on the mash and lath tonight. I ended up pulling the lower track pvc that runs under the top because it was too high and wouldn't let me lay the boards flat. I'm actually debating finishing the track full before doing the mountains. With the mountain back structure and the angel brackets, I could actually just runs trains and then play with looks. I however doubt I'll do this but rather just keep working on the mountain and hope it all turns out fine in the end. I really think using the board for holding up the track will be better than putting track directly on mortar because the boards give me a surface I know is perfectly level and sloped just right, where the mortar would be more of a guessing game and harder to get just right.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm also debating which side of the cedarmill board to put up. The frontside that has faux wood grain (that could potentially hold/puddle water more) or the backside (that might not be as weather protected?) Or are both sides identical besides the texture? .... Hmm...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

'ere we go, postin' on each ''Others THREADS'' !!! Great FUN ! 

Ya could add track and run it to see what you got - if that is not too time consuming - if it's good and your happy,.. cover it with blue masking tape and do some mud work.. 

the cement boards are unprotected on the rear usually against the wall surface. water does nothing to mine here.... I have been treating the rear exposed surface to Gripper paint, a primer, to seal it off - for good, which really keeps the water beaded up when it gets wet, in my case this side will be against the dirt fill of the embankment for the ROW. 

Staying in control sounds great, and being happy go together and help build a layout!! What keeps you awake at night, pondering this or that!?? Work towards eliminating what does keep you awake, and build around what helps you sleep!! 

This is just a hobby, we must be nuts - Cliffy said so!! 

I would seal the rear surface to resist moisture, if you select to have the smoother surface face the tracks..... 

Yep, try some mud towards the far left end - the lower end, where things are not too high up in the mountains yet. Then as you see what works, move to higher ground!! 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've painted both sides, but was curious if one side or the other is better to go upward since rain and sprinklers might put a little extra water on that surface...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

if it is sealed,.. then it is sealed!! good nuff!! 

tone the sprinklers down or change directions...of the spray..


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's the latest photos of the layout. Mountain work. 

So I'm only partially happy with how it's turning out. The massive vertical mountain sides have been nothing but a pain and I don't like how they've turned out. 

The best method I've found is making 2"-3" diameter snakes about 6"-14" long and placing a row or two at a time along the mountain walls. This gives very good depth to the mountain wall but the downside is they lay against and don't embed themselves much into the mesh. 

The method of grabbing some mortar and slapping/pressing it into the mesh results in very little definition and detail like what you'd see in Bryce canyon. Bryce canyon walls have deep cuts into the sandstone as well as a combination of smooth and coarse sides that vary from small to large chunks. The snake method makes for a more fake/disneylands big thunder look and the slap and smear method results in non sandstone appearance. A good mix of both would be the best, but I have no idea how I'll combine the two. One though will be to take out a spray bottle after an hour and just spray the snakes at close range to rough up their surface a bit. This of course has to be done on level horizontal sections across the entire mountain length to get the appearance of more and less worn rock that's due to gradual drop in water levels and various layers of different mineral percentages and realistic. 

So here are the photos. 

Below on the left is the "smear" method. Over the arched bridge is the snake method that I place the snakes and then a couple hours later, come back with a 1/4"x2"x2' wood shim and scrape out lines. Where there's a crack between snakes or where I want to add, I made the vertical cuts. The smear method looks MUCH more weathered sandstone.
 

Below are the "paddie" version of the snakes. I make paddies about 4"x6"x1" and then lay them on the mesh and use the wood shim to cut lines in them a few hours later. Their downside is you don't get the level horizontal lines that Bryce is known for -- however, I've noticed that Disneyland uses paint/color to give the horizontal line appearance also when their mountain surface isn't level yet they want to give the appearance of horizontal lines of those in Bryce.
 

Below are some balls of mortar on the top area of the mountain. Although you see some areas of Bryce like this, it's a lower % so I'm not going to do this much more on my mountains except in a one or two other areas away from this section so this doesn't stand out as an OOPS as much. The mortar nearest the camera are again snakes of mortar. On the bottom right of the image, on the vertical wall, this has been the area I hate the most. It's the smear method which as you can see really lacks detail. Add this to the fact that I had something come up and I wasn't able to come back to "detail" it for 24 hours has made it pretty much a flat ugly mess.  I'll be leaving it alone for now and come back to it at the very end and hopefully picked up a few fix-it tricks by then.
 



Below, on the right side is another "balls of mortar". I personally think that when the balls/snakes aren't added on a horizontal line, they look strange BUT I'd really like to hear what others comments are on them for realism. Again, those balls sat for 24 hours so I couldn't do much detail work on them. Does this photo below look like real mountains or would you add another layer of mortar or redo the section in some way to get a better appearance? 
 


Below shows all the various methods I've tried. If you want, grab Paint or photo shop and add some text over which sections you like the most, least, or what you'd change. I'd really appreciate and could use comments from others on what they think looks the most realistic as I'm one person and might have my own thoughts but my goal is to make something others will like, I'll enjoy it either way so I'd rather have it look like what others think looks realistic. Oh, that one big ball in the center will get broken off or mortared around as it was to get detailed but hardened too much in 24 hours. 
 

Below is a shot looking down the upper track section, though the inside walls are not finished yet.
 

Below is a closer shot of the section I hate the most, it's a mess of the smear method and since it's mostly overhang, getting mortar to stick on the underside has been a big pain...


Anyway, I know I say hate but maybe I should say that I'm not happy with the result, but hate is just easier.  It makes me more motivated to do a better job elsewhere and consider fixing it later on.

I know others have done the burlap method but I haven't tried it, though I may on the tops of some mountains. I really like the definition and depth of the snake method in some areas and I worry it would be hard to mix burlap and snakes. 

The biggest thing I'd change in the future is SPACE. I'm trying to put too much in too small of an area which is causing the walls to be more vertical than mortar likes and I have 3 tracks and mountains in a space as narrow as 18" wide. Not ideal, but I think it will turn out fairly well in the end.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here are some of my reference photos:


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Anyway, you'll see that nature is actually very rough and very consistent horizontally throughout all the mountains for obvious reasons, in both color and textures. Disneyland is really on consistent with color over horizontal lines. I'm not completely against the Disneyland look as I enjoy the parks greatly and Walts railroad is actually one of the reasons I grew up liking modeling trains and one day wanted a ride on train in the yard. 

But Disneyland != realistic and I'm curious what everyone would do if they were in my current situation and if this was their railroad at this current state.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon 
Congradulations, you are getting your feet WET, or splattered in cement. It looks great, even the area you don't think looks good, also looks good. I have been in Bryce canyon and you can see so many different formations there. 
Don't beat yourself up on not getting the perfect look. Even though God created the Bryce canyon, show me what a perfect rock looks like. Where you want to recover an area, get you a 3/16" masonary drill bit, drill a few holes screw in 
screws leaving 1/2" of head sticking out, wet down the already poured cement down and start slapping on the new cement. ( Place screws every 5-7" apart) 
2 things I would try different, I would get a brick tuck tool for the texturing tool, and I would go ahead and paint a small section, for you to see how much better it looks and to show your self how the paint hides alot 
of what you are thinking is BAD. If you want more of the sand looking effects, a tuck tool scraping the surface while textering leaves it a little rough. 
Type s mortar mix dries faster and is stickyer, may help you stick to your wire. The cement does not need to go through deeply on the back, just sticking through will bond to the wire mesh. 
As I said in your other post, I use boards propped up to hold cement in place while it sets up, and I always use boards when I create overhangs. 
When I do different color STRIPES in use a paint gun, or a paint brush. 
Keep us posted 
Keep up the good work 
Dennis


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Brandon, thinking ''out- loud'' for all to be inside my head.......... 

After our visit I digested some more thoughts..... 

WalMart or any sewing store should have the 'burlap' you need - buy a few yards to cut up and play with... 

Come up with some more ideas for tools you can collect to work the shapes and textures and details with, into the cement... 

Like - remember the old metal - aluminum combs guys used in school . get several of these. I think they would be great for drag'n fine lines in the nearly hard surface.... 

But, take a second one and remove some of the comb teeth, like maybe every other one or two, staggering them or what ever pattern you want. 

A couple patterns will be cool to have on hand.. 

Also, looking at your pix of the real rocks above, there are two things that always stand out. 

The greatest erosion is in the vertical line, from lots of water and dirt falling or wearing as it falls to the bottom... 

The other wear pattern is really the unique effects of sediment - worn away over time, the softer portions wearing much more than the harder dirt and rock, given the under cut look so prevalent to the areas like this. I'm thinking you could try to make your cookie rolls run in a vertical direction, rather than the flat method your using now.. This would create more and deeper grooves up and down the rocks, and then use your detail tools to drag in the fine sediment layers to give the sediment effects. 

more tools to be creative with!! YES .. 

Better stop before Chuck n needs to 'correct' my ''geology lessons''....ha!, 

KEEP having FUN, your doing great!!!!!!! 

Dirk - DMRR.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

THEN, 

....When you get it down to a fine art form, 

Both,.. You & Dennis ,... will just have to come visit me and show me how to get the same effects here.... 

I want to re-create a similar look - what I call ''Arizona Badlands'', same erosion techniques your shooting for now!! a little different overall but part of it has the same wear and tear...!! 

Dirk ..


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I made some decent process over the last week, it's now about 2/3rds complete. I have used about 20 bags or mortar and will need about 8-12 more I think. 

Some things I've learned. 

Burlap with mortar does not work or at least for my experiences. Even soaking the burlap in a overly wet mix results in mortar falling right off the burlap. The burlap might work with plastic cement but I can't see how it would work well with mortar. In cases with bridging gaps where burlap might be useful, I ended up pulling out the burlap test pieces and putting wire mesh back in as it was more solid for shaping and bridging gaps.

Doing Mortar in summer is not straight forward. Due to the extremely low humidity (10%-30%) and temperatures of 70-95 it's been impossible to have the same experience with placing mortar every time. Sometimes the mortar dries in 5-10 minutes to where I have to add more water which makes things less ideal for placement. Some vertical areas did better with a wetter mix, some better with drier. It's basically "try the mortar batch here and if it doesn't work well, work on another section with the batch". I often would place a standard mortar mix in patches on vertical sections where it would stick, then run a ball of mortar over mesh to get some of it to stick, then come back hours or a day later and repeat until the vertical section was covered. A wet mix as the final layer worked best to add depth but if I could get lucky a single 1/2" or 3/4" paddie of mortar on vertical sections of 1/2" hardware cloth gave me the fastest and good results. I could often mortar 2' high sections at once without mortar falling off. Using a wet mix required at least 1/4" depth to get good detailing and it took a lot more work to get random and good looking surfaces with a final mortar layer vs using a thicker 1/2" or denser paddie that you could carve further into and make more random.

The metal lath was okay for flat sections but really good for negative sloped sections, but I often liked the 1/2" hardware cloth more because the mortar would stick further through it which resulted in stronger final mountain strength and faster placement for all sections, except negative sloped, if I was having a lucky batch. Vertical sections that didn't go 'just right' required extra multiple wetter coats of mortar to do which caused layering which is a bit harder to detail without layers flaking off, regardless if I wet the surface first. I tried wetting both with a spray bottle and sponge. The problem I faced was that the cement dried out in 5-30 seconds after either method was used because it was so dry, even early in the morning when no sun had touched the surfaces yet.

A sponge became my best tool. My preferred placement was the 1/2" mortar paddies and doing a half batch of mortar. I'd ring out the sponge and about 5 minutes after the mortar was placed I'd gently glide the soft edge of the sponge across the surface to smooth out the mortar and any marks left from my fingers (btw, placing with a trowel didn't work for me, mortar kept falling through the mesh or was too flat or I cut into places nearby where I was placing mortar -- I probably just lack the skill for it. About an hour to three later (not over night, it's way too hard by then) I'd use the sponge method again over the surface to smooth in edges of the new mortar with older mortar then take a puddy knife and carve horizontal lines across the mountain. I'd go back and put the knife at a anywhere from a 0-90 degree angle and follow the line and cut out mortar above or below the line to give depth and simulate more or less erosion. Sometimes I'd drag a stick across the horizontal line or do different things to make the edges of the simulated water level erosion lines different. I'd then go back and re-cut the horizontal lines with the knife from 1/8" to 1/4" deep. Lastly I'd grab the sponge again and follow the lines I cut and smooth them out and get rid of any remaining edge points or flat lines and also give the mortar a final rub to get a consistent surface.

If I needed to cut a line deeper than the puddy knife would alone (due to harder mortar under the layer) I'd use a hack saw blade. This actually works very well when the puddy knife didn't.

On the pictures below, I still have some work to do in some areas, especially with the rock formations that go up from the mountain, some of those were done with wet mortar layers and they still need another layer or two before I can do the detailing. The paddies weren't sticking well without me pushing them too far through in some areas so I decided to just keep pushing mortar inside the towers until there was a half inch outside of the mesh, but still not all areas of the towers have the mesh hidden yet. -- If I got down to the last remains of a mortar batch I'd just use that leftover mortar to shove in some of the towers.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

WOW...Brandon.. you sure made lots of rocks....looks so cool! Bet your tired... 

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Boy did you get a lot of rocks built!!! Way to go Brandon...what you say and what you got came to terms in the middle...it is awesome man! You'll have the side yard done soon. 
Bet your tired! 

Dirk ....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Wow !!! I'm impressed, you have found a prcess with good results. The burlap wasn't to replace the lathe, rather to give the motar a medium... 
I'm worried I see long tunnels with no proven track work. Does the motar lift off for access? 
It's hard to tell the scale tho' it could all be in my mind. 

When I colored moutains in On3 I found layers of stain was better than trying to paint the variations of nature. I used spray bottles and one of clear, it's easier to build color up than down...

Stay creative! 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Longest reach is about 3'6" from a tunnel entrance. Slightly longer than my arms reach of 2'8" but considering cars are usually longer than 1' I should be able to reach each car if needed. There are rock structures that lift up (You can kind of see one of them that doesn't have the top on and another that the top isn't mortared yet). There's also a side opening for the lower track as well. Inside the tunnels are lined with plastic lap siding material so it won't scratch the cars and I could just 'push' then down if I didn't want to bother with lifting the mountain pieces that might weight up to 30lbs from my guestimating.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

OH, ya can you give us a pic of the burlap you have there.? Wondering on the mesh / weave pattern, vs. what may be sold locally for me... When you have time!!! 

Dirk


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon 
WOW looking very good, really anxious to see it painted, you have been a busy bee, you must have a good BACK 
Dennis


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Dennis, Brandon is just ''younger'' than some of us!!!! ... at least me!! Backs don't give out till we're OLD..... 

Dirk


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Actually, I've never had my back bother me until the last couple weeks... Luckily I'm decently young that it seems to fix itself after a few days and with help from a massage. The rest of these week nights are a bit busy but I have all Saturday and Sunday to see if I can get close to having all the main sections with at least a base coat. There's still a lot of time needed for touch up, some towers, a little mortar on the inside of tunnel ports, access ports, the far section of the mountain where the 180 turn is (I have yet to mortar the final 3' on that far end near the gate as I'm still debating how to make it look and work for the removable bridges). 

I'll make the goal though and see where I am come next Sunday night. Tonight I picked up another 6 bags of mortar, that's all my little car will handle a load of. A "full 12 hour day" is about 5 bags of mortar as detailing has to be done the same day and takes about an hour and a half per bag of mortar.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon

That is some mighty fine mountain building there, especially for the very first go at it.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 03 Sep 2013 04:55 PM 
OH, ya can you give us a pic of the burlap you have there.? Wondering on the mesh / weave pattern, vs. what may be sold locally for me... When you have time!!! 

Dirk 
Here's the link to the depot where I bought it:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Easy-Gar...al-Burlap-Fabric-31010/100032890#.UifzUrzAPx8 

And a picture of the burlap I took:


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I got quite a bit done yesterday but it started raining in the afternoon so I closed up shop and awoke today to rain still. I would have gotten quite a bit done today, possibly finished everything but final touch up and final detailing... 

In the rain this morning...


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

It let up around 1PM. I got 3 bags of mortar down and made a little progress. Not all what I wanted to get done today but it was 6 hours and any little bit helps. I also picked up 6 more bags of mortar and I currently have 5 left. I'm hoping I'm done making mortar runs!  It will be close, but at this point I have about 10sqft of mountain to mortar and then it's just touch up work and mortaring back in the tunnels a foot or two as places where I wouldn't be able to reach in the tunnels were mortared before I put the final mesh layers in place. 

Next Saturday I have the full day, but Sunday I'm busy helping my wife with her dog club show. I think on Saturday I should have all the mortar placed and maybe just awaiting some final detailing that will probably take weeks and 40+ hours to finish up and get to my liking. Then I can build a temporary bridge by the AC vents and maybe get some track down and run a loop before the end of October when snow hits, or I might just decide to wait to finish the track laying until next spring after the mountain is painted and enjoy what's left of the summer... Hmmm, decisions....


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I presume it has become winter already... 

Why , the rains are not letting up.... 

Some cloud ... 

Dirk. loooks great Brandon


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon,

I've been looking into using the burlap and cement technique. What they recommend to use is "plastic cement" used for stucco. Have the PDF if you want it

Alan


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks Alan, I have his PDF as well. But yes, plastic cement does appear to be what you have to use for the burlap method. 

Today I'll be back in the yard, between rain storms it appears. Before I went out I thought I'd post a picture of the current state. If all goes well, all mortar will be done today! I have a few ramps that I need to mortar as well as the fast side of the mountain by the gate (It has a rough coat now that I put on so mortar would stick better since it has mostly vertical sides) and finally the arched bridge underside. I have a few places left as well where I've detailed and cut too deep and exposed the mesh and holes. Oh, and there are a few towers that need some extra mortar and some back sides of the mountain that need some touch up. So I guess I have a bit of work, but I have until sunset tonight if needed so I'm hopeful. 

Here's the current mountain


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

This has been interesting to watch you build this. 
Keep up the good work.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Darn rain... I got 4 bags of mortar placed, more than I was expecting to do bag wise but less than what I was wanting to accomplish for the mountain. I did a bunch of touch up as well as finished several of the ramps, the mountain section by the gate and finished detailing some of the towers. I have the backside of one tower left and touch up on 3 others as well as the overhang is about 80% mortared but because it's negative slope I put some plastic siding (that I had also used for the inside of the tunnels) along that overhang section for about 10' and backfilled the inside with mortar. It should work well, but then I noticed I had put the bend the wrong direction which might look odd, but I should be able to detail it out. 

Anyway, no photos as it's raining now. I had also thought I would be working on it tomorrow, but I need to do some honey-do items instead. No plans next Saturday so I should be able to get a fair bit more done, and be close do done that day I hope. 3 bags of mortar still in the garage, I'm not sure if that will make it or not...


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon,

Rain can be a good thing. If nothing else it will show where the water wants to go. May be helpful in creating secondary scenery to compliment the great work you've already done on the mountains. 

Alan


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thought I'd post pictures of the weekend work. There won't be any updates for a week because I have something going on every minute that there's sunlight until Saturday afternoon. I might get some time to work on it then, but definitely Sunday I'll be out there. 


Below, I've got off the pipes now so I will be able to finish mortaring where they were. There's also one hatch (where the burlap is towards the nearer mountain region) that I need to finish as it's just a base that will cover the hole for now.
 

Below, the front left tunnel entrance needs some work still done to the top rim. On the bottom left, the mountain edges/groove for ballast is barely wide enough for the track ties, I might have to break some of this out and re-do so I can fit a artiscraft snowplow blade down against the track. That or lift the track up higher the entire length of that line but I'm not sure which yet because I'm toying with ballasting idea changes and track clearance issues, luckily I make the tunnel tops 11.25" tall so I can raise the track a little if needed. I'll probably do test runs with trains before I decide on what to do there.
 

Below, the ramp on the right still needs the 2" tall edges put on that will hold ballast, and the pipe cut out. The arch bridge at the very bottom left of the image still needs its edge for holding ballast added. Above the left tunnel entrance also needs some work, haven't decided if I'll do a cave of just fill in that overhang as there's still mesh exposed.
 
Below, the tower tops need a little work, and actually a number of places need some work. This is where I'll experiment with exterior latex paint diluted with stain and if I have to, I'll add another layer of mortar of areas that I'm not happy with. The pipes below are just where they are because they hold the plastic during windy storms and it keeps from having mortar on them break off elsewhere in the yard.
 
Again, not too happy with the bottom of the image below but this will be reworked at the very end if I decide to, it's kind of unique looking and I wonder if I can make it look realistic with paint. And it's in an area where you don't see it unless you walk all the way down so it's not the end of the world if I run out of time, will, or just decide I that it could pass as natural?
 

The tracks exist on a curve, and I'm not sure about clearances yet so right now there's a wide gap for a "tunnel" entrance below. A curved bridge will cross the lawn and I've yet to decide what type or how to make the bridges.
 


Any comments on what areas that don't look as realistic (aka, people would recommend I touch up?)
 

At the bottom of the image below, the last mortaring I did was to make the mountain ledge/overhang pass for the loopback. This is the part I backpoured with a make shift form and then had to go out and by flashlight from 10pm to 1am, change it from a completely smooth glass face to up to 3" deep areas gouges to make it look like the rest of the mountains and not the side of a glass smooth foundation wall. I've learned my lesson using vinyl as a form, though with a puddy knife and a foam sponge, I was able to shape the mortar and rough it up just like the rest of the mountain, I was lucky IMO. The photo also doesn't show it too well, but it does overhang about 5", but the lawn edging is 6" wide +2" distance from the mountain side to the lawn curbing/edging, so I still have 3" of a gap between where people could put a leg and the loopback overhang.
 

If anyone wants, feel free to add dots with a paint program for the areas you'd recommend I do some more work on. Even if it's just a big dot over all photos.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow Brandon it looks great, you are your own worst critic, You do it the way you are happy with and we will ALL be impressed and pleased
keep up to good work and do it to satisfy you.
Good job
Dennis


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I decided that I'd clean things up a bit before I did the final detailing work. Lots of areas to remove undesired concrete lines from still but the plastic and garbage mortar needed to be cleaned up so I could make sure there weren't any holes in lower sections and also get a "view" of how things will look in the end to make sure I'm happy with things. I think there's about a dozen holes that need some filling where mesh is showing through, inside of a few tunnels needs some mortar to look better for the first couple feet. And some towers and misc sections still need work. I also have to admit the mountain region near the gate doesn't look as good as the rest but I'm torn whether to or how much time to invest in it vs trying to paint it out... What it really needs is just a 1/4" new mortar layer that I can detail but I'm not sure how well that will bond now that it's been a month + since it was done -- would wetting it down be good enough or would it chip off too easily? Or maybe I get a harbor freight grinder and a thin wheel for areas that I didn't add the "lines" in at the time.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

just paint it 
Dennis


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I agree Paint it, you can add dark lines and shading for 'missing' lines. 

Most folks will focus on the trains and see the mountains as part ofthe whole.... Woe to the artist who knows his baby's faults! 

I've seen a lot of shapes in nature, who says yours aren't as valid? 

Get your track in and your clearances checked, then you can add the details... 

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Spent Saturday and Sunday working on the mountain again. I think I have to finish the inside of the closest mountain and the a few inches in the inside of another tunnel and them I'm complete. The last time I checked I couldn't find any mesh exposed or holes. I could probably still take the puddy knife to a few areas and remove some sharper corners and smooth out a few places where the concrete is rough but I'm not sure I'll do that. It's towards the end of the year and I have a number of other things that have been back logged on my to-do list. This also means the ugly area near the gate will probably stay as-is. 

 

 

 

 

 

The bottoms of a few mountain areas have mesh left exposed but I plan on using weed fabric (or something else that will let water pass and last for a long time) and placing ballast on top so it holds the ties better. This will also let water pass through instead of pooling, freezing and then cracking the mountain during the winter. 

Next step is figuring out how to paint it. Sounds like exterior latex diluted with stain but I have no idea what ratios, brands, and how many colors I'll need to recreate Bruce canyon as it goes from a bright orange to a bleached white on the real mountains. I know with stain you can't lighten (only darken with extra coats) but I'm not sure what happens when you're using latex diluted with stain. 

I'm also not sure the grass will all make it.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Winter is coming fast, so I'm not sure what I'll be doing on my yard the rest of the year. I might make a temporary bridge by the AC units and lay track there but I think it's not too likely. 

So this might be the final photo for the year...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Diluting the latex makes the stain. 
Do Not add stain to paint, one is water base and I think stain is solvent based; water and oil.... 

Washes are thinned paint, I'd use artist Acylic colors in the tube. The Umbers, raw and burnt as well as the Siennas for the browns, then reds, yellows and oranges, plus black and later near dry white for dry brushing highlights. 

I'd use spray bottles because your canvas is so large. 

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I wish you had done a video of your work. That is fantastic. 

JJ


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

New year, New job, but can you guess what the best part of the last five months is?! Today. I'm out in the yard today working on the double layer bridge to go behind the a/c units! I'll hopefully finish up most of the remaining support structures before it's warm enough to paint/stain the mountains. After that I can lay the remaining track and finish a full loop and run trains!  There still is a lot to do. Bridges, mountains, buy and install pnuematic switches... I also had the husband of a lady my wife trains dogs with offer to build a bridge for the layout so I'm quite excited to work with him on that. 

My goal for this summer is finish everything but computer automation, plants, buildings and converting all the trains to have computers on board.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Welcome back Brandon!!!
Dig outa the snow did ya?
How did your cement mountains weather / survive the first winter?

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Great to see you back and still living the dream.
I look forward to watching you build this beauty.

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Mountains did great great, no cracks or anything... I'll take some photos of things in a week or so, once I have new things to show completed...


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## Bryan Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow Brandon, I cant wait see your open house club.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I was able to finish the double layer bridge (temporary for a few years until I can build a metal one that will last, but this gets me closer to running a train around to test the track this year). I also ran about 25 wheelbarrows of road base fill to my place from a neighbors home 400 feet away, down and up a hill and am using that for my village section that needs hills. I'll be putting some real good dirt for growing things but the road base fill work great for holding its shape and not settling as much.

Someone should have told me that you put the dirt down before the track. Opps. Guess I'll need to build a dirt plow this summer...


The picture below was taken before I finished straightening and securing the vertical braces but then it was too dark to get photos of so here's pre-finished. It doesn't look the best but it's functional for now and will hold plenty of weight for large consists and live steam.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Welcome back Brandon, We all hope spring hurry's back, for many reasons and one of them is to see your accomplishments. Keep us posted, 
Wow you sure have some back breaking boulders next to your fence. 
Have fun
Dennis


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm trying to decide how to build the 10' long and slightly (1/5th circle) rounded tunnel. Cinderblock walls and cinderblock caps on top, corrugated 12" up to 18" diameter corrugated metal or plastic pipe. Lots of choices. Cinderblock would be the cheapest but I wouldn't have a stable base and I fear a 10' long run would cause mortar holding the blocks to break and leak over time. Pipe would run about $200 unless I can find scraps or something which I've seen randomly along dirt roads or other places where people have left discarded junk over the years. I'm hoping to find something Saturday morning and finish the dirt that day. I also need to lay out my switches and see how many I have left of each time since I've changed where the access to the second level train shed will be.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Up late..up early Brandon....!

One question I have ..how many blocks high are we talking here...this contributes to the overall weight for settling..your layout is not very high, so I can't see where you will have more than a couple layers to stack..

H.D. has 16" x 16" - 1.25" pads for about $ 3.45 each...I have been using these larger sizes as a base to "prevent compressive settling", they give a good foot print vs. the small surface area of just a block. If room is lacking to lay these than using the red caps - $ 0.79 ea. ( less than gray ones )...they still provide good surface area support.
You can cover with the thinner caps on top.. to close the roof in..

For a dry tunnel overlay with tarpaper or a couple layers of h.d. trash bags. The moisture will move down both sides then. To me using block is inexpensive and easy to fit in place.

With a 8" tunnel interior, one can use 8" block for walls - a total of 24" width, still if room is an issue 6" block can form the side walls. 

Once built,...it will withstand any weight on top without harm to trains...

Dirk


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

What a perfect day. At home depot by 7am, parts picked out by 8 and on the way home, ran a new drain line for the pond (required clearing and saving bark then digging a trench 15' long and 2'-4' deep. glued over a dozen joints, backfilled the train mountain/hill, re-leveled the track, cleaned up misc stuff all over the yard, reorganized the garage from snow mode in to lawn mode, and even washed the car. Best part? It was 66 degrees today! What a great spring day!

Here are some photos of the tunnel structure. Thanks of course must be given to Dirk who gave me some great tips on keeping the tunnel from settling and dry inside.

4" solid blocks on their side with 6"x8"x16" hollow blocks on top for a 12" tall tunnel (remember this 12" number for later in this post...) I also sprayed gap filler foam between the 2"x8"x16" ceiling/top blocks. I used 6" tall irrigation boxes that I then cut in half so they were only 3.5" tall as I didn't want them sticking out of the dirt or to pile 6" of dirt on top in this year as it was already plenty high for my hillside design. 



I then mortared over the foam to make those areas stronger for any foot traffic and/or water leakage.



Next I covered it with a tarp that I cut in half, this should help keep the water out.



And finally, it's covered. I still need to do the tunnel entrances but I'm not sure what they will be yet so I've opted not to mortar them or finalize them yet.





And here was today's project, unfortunately I didn't take any photos until I had already placed the pipe and was backfilling the trench.




Now the bad news. So I made the tunnel 12" tall inside, perfect for 10" tall cars and 1/24th. Bad news though, I was off 2" when I laser levelled and didn't realize until 9pm last night and 2 days after I had done all this.  The only saving grace in being limited to 8" is that all my engines and rolling stock are 7.15" at max (I measured last night in a panic to see what I wouldn't be able to run through the tunnel). This also means that the tunnel rail section that also goes under a bridge will only require the bridge to be 7.5" tall instead of 10.5" which means I can stay at a 2% grade otherwise it would have been at a 3% grade which is a plus. I'll just have to make sure if I get autocarriers or someone is running 1/24th stuff that they don't take that tunnel path and there is another path they can take instead. 

Now to fill the bottom of the tunnel with 3" of dirt and level it. :-/


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

looking good Brandon, at least you are getting spring weather.
Dennis


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

You made that look pretty easy Brandon..
Even has tunnel covers...now you won't have any train wrecks....

Too much fun. ..good to visit also..

Dirk


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon, Have done the digging trenches and laying in pipe thing. No fun. At least I don't have to go as deep as you do to get below the frost line. Hope you don't mind but I'm probably going to copy your tunnel access idea when I build my mountains. Especially over a switch that could end up partially inside a covered spot coming away from my mine area.
Alan


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Copy away! Lot of great ideas out there, I've appreciated all the ideas and photos I've seen from others and just try to give back....

Tonight I finished up hauling in another 6 wheelbarrows of dirt and leveled the track more. I need to figure out the bridges now, especially the removable ones by the gate and mountain... Those are the last major engineering feat to design...


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## Aaron S (Aug 1, 2013)

Read through this entire thread and Brandon, I must say, you are doing a great job. I love the mountains. They look so cool! Keep inspiring!


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks Aaron! 

Edit: I just went back and reviewed about a quarter of the pages. I can't believe you read the whole thing. :O It's interesting to see what my original plans were, how things changed and what's resulted from ideas as the years have passed. Sometime when I'm completed I'll need to print this thread out and leave it out on the coffee table for memory. It's been a fun project and I'm excited that I still have quite a lot left to do.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Brandon, I was looking at removable bridges when I was doing my initial planning and found several threads about how different people did them. Including one that had the bridge on a pivot like a draw bridge. I do know that Split Jaw makes special drop-in clamps for that sort of engineering. Not sure if any of the threads I read used them. And the plans they do change....... a lot 
Alan


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I've read about the split-jaw clamps, good comments about them and I know some local club members who have used them and liked them so I was planning on going with those.

Tricky part will be making bridges that are exact yet taking into account that over the years the ground may move on both sides of where the bridges will mount... I have ideas that involve one side of those areas being on a somewhat floating base to account for expansion or ground shifting.

-----

This last week was a real busy one with work, over 70 hours and working Saturday and Sunday. I did find a couple hours on Sunday to do a little work in the morning so I made up some temporary bridges so I can lay track. One day, anywhere from 6 months to a couple years, these "temporary" bridges will be replaced but they get me going for now until I can learn to weld or build other nicer looking bridges.





And of course dog load tested. 


This next weekend I hope to build the curved temporary bridges over by the mountain. These will need to be removable temporary bridges as well so I'm using redwood bender board with 1x2's cut to 8" width to span the sides and make ladder structures. 

After that I can finish laying the rest of the track with the exception of near the mountain and on the mountain where I'll need to stain the mountain and also build some ramps, up to 25' long and I'm not sure how I'll do that yet. Currently it's a single 3/4" pipe that holds the track up which obviously won't hold trains but it works for general track laying.

I'm also ahead of where I wanted to be which I'm quite happy with for this season. Hopefully I'll have bridges and track all laid by the end of April and have the mountain stained/painted in May. I then should have final touches to the track done in June,and run some trains in that month. I also still need to get pneumatics for the switches and hope to have that in by August. The local club wants to come out to my place in August or September so I need to keep working hard to be ready for the meeting, but they do know I won't be anywhere near "finished" of course.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I like the irrigation box access. I'll be putting a tunnel in this Spring, and will be borrowing that idea. It's _just_ long enough to where I won't be able to reach the center from the ends, and I've had enough experience with tunnels to know that "out of reach" is the only place derailments happen inside tunnels.

Later,

K


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Today I built up the temporary (a couple years) rounded bridges.

The first bridge I made I ended up having to add bracing on the bottom so that it fit the 9' curve I had marked out with my jig in the grass. Without the braces it went from 9' to 9'6" due to the redwood bender board wanting to spring back straight. The second bridge I adjusted the jug to be 3" less in radius and it's still in the jig and I'll pull in a couple days and hopefully it will be perfect without bracing. I also soaked the boards of the second bridge in the pond for a half hour before bending which should help as well.





It's suppose to rain tomorrow so it will possibly be next weekend before they get installed.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

More work this last week. I placed the curved bridges and laser leveled them up. I still need to add some bracing between the top and bottom and the great news is I should be able to add hinges and make it a swing bridge rather than a lift out bridge! I'm going to wait a few weeks before I cut the bridges to make them hinge so that the wood adjusts to its new shape better. 

They went in pretty smoothly. I should end up with a 4.5' radius turn. I am quite surprised how strong the bridges are. I could have used a single post and placed about 100lbs of weight on a bridge without it breaking I bet. I used more posts to help hold the top and bottom bridges aligned right on top of each other since their radius wasn't identical. 

This week I also doubled up pvc pipe for ramps so that the track will be flat (hard to make it flat with a single pipe) and will now allow me to potentially run trains before I get all the wood cribbing in place in a year or more. I also cut the second level hatch opening in the train shed that I wasn't going to use but I've reworked the AC lines to make it possible to get the trains to go in on that side.





The next big thing is painting the mountain, although that will have to wait at least another month for it to warm up and stop raining as much. It's raining again today so I spent 4 hours outside and 4 ours inside organizing the rolling stock and engines on to shelves so I can clean up the basement and begin finishing that.

Next weekend I will probably go around and check all the rail clamps and make sure they didn't pull apart over the last 2 years and then go through which switches I have left and get their locations figured out. Since the train can go in to the side of the train shed, my original switch plans are messed up now. I also might start laying more track next week, or at least adjusting areas near the new tunnel that need a couple switches moved a bit to better allow for less slope near the pond filter pit.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

The weather hasn't been cooperating. However, I've still found enough small lengths of time and enough courage to handle 40-50 degree weather, a little rain, and winds to get some work done in the yard.

As things sit, all the track is laid in the train shed, and in the back yard area. The remaining track to be put down is through the mountain, on the curved bridges, and on the loop back bridge that still needs to be constructed. In all, 95% of the track is down. It required another order from split-jaw for 50 clamps as I had run out. 



Now for the next big step, painting.

Here's a few photos of a test piece. After calling Sherman Williams, Kwal, and visiting Lowes, they didn't carry any cement stains in colors I could benefit from. HD had a few choices but didn't have any smaller test cans for cement colors (and the cement stain is so I ended up getting some solid Cedar and slightly transparent Curry WOOD stains to test diluting stains and seeing how layering stains in general would work. 






The left side is cedar, the top of the chunk has a 0 dilution stain, the middle was diluted a little (by putting the brush in some water, nothing too scientific) and the bottom was a couple layers of the diluted. 

The right side is the slightly transparent Curry with the bottom being straight from the can and the top being a few different strokes of diluted (by dabbing the brush in some water) to see how gradients done by diluting might work.

After they dried for about a week I put them outside and let the rain soak them for a few days.



I think the mortar chunks lost just a little bit of stain from the rain. In a day or two I'm going to put the chunks in a bucket of water for a while and see if they lose any more. The can does say the wood stain is Sun, Rain, Snow and Ice proof so maybe it's just my eyes thinking there's a color difference between pictures.

I do wonder what the difference between a wood stain and a cement stain is. 

Here's the info for the wood stain I used: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-Pre...=behr+solid+color+weather+proofing+wood+stain

And here's the cement stain:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-Premium-1-gal-Deep-Base-Solid-Color-Concrete-Stain-83001/100200359

What I find interesting is the Concrete stain is not UV protected while the wood is. The concrete stain also has silicon in it which I'm not sure is better or worse for what I want. Anyone know?

I'm temped to just use the wood stain on the mountain since it's UV protected and wouldn't require a final coat of something to UV protect it. 

I'm also going to have to figure out if latex or acrylic is better for outside. In other threads, people have said latex is the way to go for mountains, I'm wondering why that over acrylic stains... ???


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## johnndeanna (Nov 5, 2012)

So far so good. Looks like a lot of work for sure. I like the whole idea sans one issue, and that is that you have blocked egress from your window wells along the side yard. I'm all for a railroad but not at the expense of a major safety issue. Mind you I am not judging, I 

just hope that it never causes an issue. Code calls for them for a reason. Let's hope you never need it.

Aside from that, I like the concepts and the workmanship thus far.

John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I understand your concern. As things are laid out in the basement, there's no possible situation that the two window wells in question could be the only way out from a fire or other emergency. The window wells you mention are 2 of 6 in a single large open room (not bedrooms which have more windows and ladders for egress) in the basement that also has walkout door on the other end and a staircase 2' from one of these window wells. The window wells are 7' deep and 6'6" wide and 40" front to back with the shed blocking 19" of the 40". I personally jump up and down inside of the window well myself without the shed getting in the way and made sure it was possible during design of the shed. Around the corner of the house, about 8' and 14' from these window wells inside is a third window well with a 5' ladder for exiting in an extremely rare situation. If there was an emergency, there's no probable situation that the shed would cause a problem considering the layout of other nearby windows in the same room, stairs, and other methods of exiting in the basement. A child for example would have no choice but to take the ladder in the adjacent window well feet from these (and there are 3 other ladders in each corner of the basement not counting bedrooms which have their own), the walkout door, or the stairs up. If an adult needs to exit quickly they'd likely take the same exits or pull themselves up if they could as I do in those two window wells with 21" of clearance, so in short, someone who has the strength to pull themselves up should be able to physically fit and if they can't fit they'd have no choice but to use the third nearby window with a ladder, the stairs, or the walkout door. When the basement is finished, putting up a sign that says. "Not an exit" wouldn't be a bad idea as well, but I'm sure someone would notice the ladder in a window well feet away or be taking the stairs if there was an emergency. The home also has two separate fire alarms. One group of 7 detectors installed with the home and 5 others that are battery operated and connected wirelessly to the home security/automation which also does some fancy stuff if the alarm is not set (automatically turns on bathroom fans to vent out smoke and engages the furnaces fresh air supply from outside to bring in fresh air when the fire alarm goes off as well as turns on all lights to help with exiting quickly and notifies the authorities of course).

Hopefully this makes sense, and safety was carefully considered when doing this, but I appreciate your concern for safety.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I was trying to decide how I'd paint the different layers of colors, what order to paint and so on and kept getting stuck. It's hard to imagine how it would look overall but in detail or how to paint it out well in photoshop and then try to recreate it in real life as shading and the color palette is different.

So I decided to go for it and paint a base of the main color and then I'll go back and add highlights and lowlights as needed. 

For now here's some eye candy of the current state.









I did run out of paint so I'll need another Saturday to finish some touch up in one place you can't see, and to spray the inside of a few tunnels. Then I'll put the track back in and start highlighting and lowlighting here and there. I'm also waiting for the next rain storm before I do any high and lows to see if the rain washes any of the stain off and starts to naturally weather it.

Edit: I started off with brushes and rollers with 1 1/4" nap and that did NOT work well at all, so I borrowed an electric stain sprayer and although it went through a lot of paint (and put on a thicker coat than I'd like which often led to me rolling a roller over various areas when I was done spraying to soak up the excess paint) it was absolutely needed to get in to the cracks, tunnels, and only took about 4 hours to paint and get a pretty good result. I think the sprayer atomizer wasn't that great which was why the paint was thicker and I had to stay 3'-4' away when spraying instead of the 12" the instructions said.


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## mikell (Apr 27, 2014)

Quite a project but looking real good


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yep...darn purdy!!

Purdy amazing...

Purdie. ...
.....AWESOME...!!!!

Looks great. I can wait to see a colorfull freight running....maybe


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

What was the "base color" and where did you get it? Looks very nice especially against the white background of the fence.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Fence is tan vinyl.  

Stains are from the local big box hardware store. Behr Premium, Wood Coatings collection, Exterior Wood Stain (Wood has UV protection, their Cement stain does not).

Base Color is: SC-533 (aka DP-533 Cedar Naturaltone)

In addition I'll likely be using:
A slightly more rust color but otherwise very close to Cedar Naturaltone, that I'll be using to highlight is Curry (SC-134)
For a darker/more red color for low-lights I'll be using SC-122 Redwood Naturaltone
And for highlights I'll be using a decently diluted Colonial Yellow (SC-139) 

IMO the colors above will give you the colors found in this image:









Here's my test samples:


Right side:
Bottom is the Redwood Natural
Next up is the Cedar,
Next up is Curry
Next up (first tan) is Colonial Yellow
The very top has SC-140 (Bright Tamra) but it's too orange, on the left tip, the right tip was a semi-transparent colonial that you couldn't really even see had been painted.

Left side:
Bottom 75% Cedar Natural
Second up on left is 50% Cedar Natural -- as you can tell, 100%, 75% and 50% pretty much have no difference except you get a slightly bit more orange going a lower %.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Almost a month since the last update...

I had to take down one bridge as my wife and I threw a party and with 50 people walking around, having them step over the bridge wasn't practical. But the good news is it's back in place and today I finished up the last of the track and now have it all in, minus one loop back which I probably won't get to for months or maybe this year.

With all the track in, I'm still a ways off from running trains. I've been working on the software a little at nights and last weekend. I've also decided to do double action cylinders/actuators for my pnuematic switching. SVRR, Ez-air, and all the others used single action with sprint return but it never sat right with me. I ordered some Clippard 3ps-1/2 cylinders and they have a pretty strong spring rate, and I was not expecting that. To be honest I was worried the spring pressure would not be enough as 12oz-16oz seemed too light IMO but after buying a few for eval, I decided 12oz is actually about right but then I started to get worried that keeping pressure like that 24/7 through rail reaching 160 degrees in the summer (110 ambient) and -20 in the winter, that much pressure might not be good. So I decided to experiment as if noone tries anything new, the hobby might not improve. 

So I bought 48 clippard eto-3m valves and 24 clippard sdr-1/2 cylinders as well as all the parts to connect everything. Here's 3/4ths of my setup copmleted.



I'm still waiting for the 4 relay boards to control the valves to come so the wires are just dangling at the moment and where the air brush compressor is, will be a fourth set of 12 valves to control 6 switches.

As for the compressor, I went to harbor freight planning on picking up a 5 gallon tank and saw the mini compressor which got me thinking. Many people running pneumatics run a air line out to their trains or have a portable tank, like I was planning. Then I saw the air brush compressor and though, I have 110v in my train shed (or will when done), it seems like a better solutions so I don't have to fill, haul, and monitor the air tank. So I bought this little compressor and it's actually perfect. It maxes out at 58psi but I am expecting to run between 15psi (16 oz of force as the sdr-1/2 has a 5/16" bore and thus a .07 value of area so 15psi * .07 = 1.05lb's of force.

In addition to the clippard sdr-1/2 cylinders I bought some needle flow control valves so I can turn down the flow for each cylinder which I've played with and am quite pleased with. Upon activating a cylinder I can have it take up to 5 seconds to move the switch point to the other position and it's quite smooth too, very impressive IMO. It's fun to watch the points move slowly and prototypical but enough of point pr0n. 

For reference, the sdr-1/2 cylinders are just under 2.5" long which puts them at a length that will fit nicely with my SVRR switches. I'm debating on using the mounts clippard has for attaching them to the switches or molding my own boxes that are more prototypical or at minimum hold the cylinders like llagas or svrr cylinder mounts to.

Anyway, that's my update. Things are still moving forward and I'm averaging about 15 hours in the yard each week still. If all goes well I'll have the rest of the electronics wired up by this next weekend and in about 2-4 weeks I'll be installing the pneumatics to each switch. I also having wiring AC to the shed, adding more color texture to the mountain, putting insulator pieces between the split-jack insulators that don't actually keep the rails from touching, and wiring up power to the tracks.

I think the local club members might come by in a couple months so I definitely need to keep moving.

Oh, I also started updating my ARail thread on here again about the software I'm writing for automated and one day AI control of the locomotives. 

Keep moving forward! -- W.D.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's a photo of the mountain from a lower angle, I think it's coloring up quite nicely... All the track is down, even though this picture doesn't show it installed as the picture is about a month old.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Got three electrical plugs installed in the shed and conduit and power run to it this weekend. Also did a few minor cleanups to track.

Remaining:

Pneumatics, about half done, waiting parts.
Ballasting, need to find black and orange...
Power, tracks are isolated so just some leads.
Trestles, at least thirty.
Bridges, seven.

And I'm probably missing some more...


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Looks really Great. Can not wait to see it in person. 
Keep up the good work.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon WOW: Looking very good, keep us posted with pictorial information
Dennis


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

By the way, what is the travel time from Vegas are you?
Dennis


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

About 6 hours, I live in a suburb of SLC. There's some talk in the club about doing a tour of members layouts next year during the summer, which might be interesting for people who live in nearby states.

I thought about taking a picture of the outlets but figured everyone knew what they look like.  Most of the work was getting power outside of the home which is quite boring. I also only ran a new 15 amp circuit instead of 20. One day I may regret it but 15 amps should be plenty as there's really no reason to have larger power tools running on that side of the home. The compressor is the biggest draw of power but it's a small airbrush compressor so there's plenty of current to spare.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

It's been a few busy weeks. I help with the local yearly water club (ponds) tour book creation and it's off to the printers today so I can get back to the railroad now.

I created a metal bridge album for ideas now too.

http://s135.photobucket.com/user/srcrbrandon/slideshow/train/metal%20bridges

and here's the wood bridge album

http://s135.photobucket.com/user/srcrbrandon/slideshow/train/wood bridges

I need two 6' span bridges with no supports in the middle. One of these is also a double mainline bridge. They are about 30' feet, straight line, from each other so I'm trying to balance function and make it look like they're two same-length bridges that aren't major decade differences. I like the idea of wood bridges, but a metal one would be fun (I have a 3', 2.5' and 2' bridge elsewhere on the layout so these are the two major ones...) I guess there's also technically a 20' long bridge on the side of the house/off the train shed second story, that I could do a metal bridge there later that's more suspension and time very time consuming to build over the years...

Anyway, I also want to balance size/presentation of the two 6' spans and just thought I'd post some photos I find inspiring. 

As for other status, all the wood for the trestle bents is cut and waiting a jig. I've bought a pin nailer, pins, glue and have made a paper template for the bents. I've also decided to glue first (sounds like glue doesn't stick well to stain) and then likely acid dip/stain in vinegar and steel wool.

I also need to do air testing of all the pneumatics with software. I've done them individually but not as a whole unit yet. Then it's time to order the hose..

Speaking of Pneumatics, I did take a 3ps-1/2 Clippard cylinder over to a friends layout who has SVRR pnuematic switches. It's the same cylinder except the SVRR have a hole drilled in the rod for attaching to a switch arm and SVRR have a mounting bracket. Like I said before though, I decided to use double action cylinders instead so I need to make my own mounts anyway but I thought I'd share that knowledge. I figure I have about 1500' of pneumatic hose to run.  At least it's easier to install than rail and ties...

Oh, I also trimmed up some panels on the train shed to make the side doors open/close easier and I've ordered locking pins for the train doors. I still need to weather proof and bug proof those side train doors though.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Brandon, couple questions. How is its water proofness? I'm thinking about doing this instead of real rock but curios how it handles the rain as far as inside the tunnels. I'm looking at doing a waterfall from my top and an overhang with train running under. Second, from what I read, you did straight mortar and sand? I've read about making faux rocks and they seem to suggest either peat moss or others to make it lighter. Third, did you consider using the powdered cement stain that is mixed in when you make the mortar. Also, I've seen cement acid stains used on slabs and patios that gives you a real variation. Did you try any of that stuff? I've been following your thread with great interest, my mountain with tunnels will only be 10-12 feet long around a curve.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Mickey
I am not Brandon, waterproofing cement for a waterfall will be next to impossible. Cement cracks to easy, you can do a fiberglass river bed, I do a steel or aluminum trough, with cement in that, I place cement in there so the steel will carry all water out, you still have to waterproof the cement very well because cement can wick out water, over the steel/aluminum . I use type S mortar mix. just add water and mix. 
For me on color, mixing in with the the motar mix, will add alot of cost, and only provide one color, I use 3-4 different colors to get the desired highlighting.
I am going to try the acid coloring to see if it works, I have about a 20 foot canyon to color .
In the past I have used alot of acrylic house paint., works well, 
Dennis


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

mickey said:


> Brandon, couple questions. How is its water proofness? I'm thinking about doing this instead of real rock but curios how it handles the rain as far as inside the tunnels. I'm looking at doing a waterfall from my top and an overhang with train running under. Second, from what I read, you did straight mortar and sand? I've read about making faux rocks and they seem to suggest either peat moss or others to make it lighter. Third, did you consider using the powdered cement stain that is mixed in when you make the mortar. Also, I've seen cement acid stains used on slabs and patios that gives you a real variation. Did you try any of that stuff? I've been following your thread with great interest, my mountain with tunnels will only be 10-12 feet long around a curve.


Sorry, been a bit crazy lately and haven't done too much lately, I'm not sure I'll even get trains running this year any more. 

As denray said, coloring gets expensive and you have to measure it by the gram or even more accurately from batch to batch if it's a small batch. Considering I did roughly half batches at a time it would be near impossible to get the same color on each time. I opted for painting with a UV protected wood stain and it's held up to 100+ degree days and lots of rain pretty well. It will need touching up every few years probably but that's not too bad IMO and a lot easier than color in cement which also fades anyway unless you seal it, which is a pain to do every year and doesn't allow easy touch-up. I haven't had any chips or cracks since the first few hours of drying in a few places. 

I did experiment with Hypertoofa near the pond to make some rock portals. It's made of equal parts of cement, peat moss and perlite. Very lightweight and looks a bit like granite. The peat moss will decompose and give a bit of a rough texture over time and it can be cut with a saw (I wouldn't use a good saw though). I've seen waterfalls made out of hypertoofa but as denray said, it's best to use a trough or liner under to catch water in case it does crack over the years. Hypertoofa is easier to patch than cement I believe.

Cement stains typically aren't UV protected, and why I went with wood stain which is very close to the same formula as cement stains.

I did straight type s mortar, no sand.

As for a quick update on my project, I have all the pneumatic stuff bought and most assembled. I'm working on a model for a 3d printer to make my own pneumatic cylinder holders for switches and should have that done in another week. I've also completed about 40 trestle bents and have about 30' of trestles installed, though I don't have the cross supports between the bents installed yet. I also had cut the boards in 4' lengths and I need some 6' lengths to do a couple bridges, bummer.

I should be able to finish the trestles this year, though I may wait to install the pnuematics outside until next spring. I think the bridges and trestles will occupy most of my time before winter hits, and it's already snowed about 3k' higher than my elevation this week. So much for a fall.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Brandon, I've just been looking through your posts for this year, wow what fun! Simply gorgeous! 

You mentioned UV protection as a factor, and I panicked, because I didn't make sure my stain choice was good in that way. Well, just checked, and I'm fine, phew. 

Like you, I've just applied a base coat; and detailing / highlighting is yet to come. 

And if you don't run trains this season, so what? You're building awesomeness into years to come!

===>Cliffy


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

It's been a while so I thought I'd post some pictures to prove I'm still at it... I have jumping wires to provide power through insulated switches, adding the pneumatics to switches (waiting on 3d printed parts), roadbed material and placement, final grading, final clearance testing, and rebuilding the rounded double decker bridge on the side of the house that didn't hold it's radius. I'll be doing a vinyl and wood bridge this time.

Then miniature landscaping for years to come.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh, 60+ trestle bents, four bridges, three retaining walls, and 34' of cribbing. Took over 400 rips on a table saw and thousands of manual cuts to length. I'm over 4000 pin nails shot as well. That was all last fall and this spring.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Good to see you made through hibernation again. I like the cribbing and trestle work.
John


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

No pictures but a quick update. Yesterday I cut the last four pieces of rail, placed the last clamps and power jumpers between tracks. I also secured the track in a few places in the train shed and mountain and ran a test car (1:24 toy/garbage box car) all over and used it to find clearance problems (I've been using a good aristo box car for testing non-clearance track issues all along). I've gotten everything now mostly in-line with a couple small adjustments that I'm sure run into as I run more rolling stock but I think I could actually run a train now. Oh, I do have paper clips holding switches until I get the pneumatics installed but I'm waiting on some 3d printed parts that are out of my control. 

Anyway, I still need to wire up a transformer to the track but I'm getting pretty darn close now. Oh, and I need to still add roadbed to raise the track 1" as has been designed and add landscaping. Just a lot of loose ends right now.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Some minor celebration is in order...

Last night I brought out the bridgeworks, put it in the train shed and hooked up the wires to the outside track. Bad news is the track was dirty and I had to push an engine dozens of times to get it around. The good news is it went around with only a minor clearance issue. The inside track still has work to be done on the train shed doors which have warped and made opening the doors nearly impossible so I didn't run the inside on the full loop yet. 

I'm still waiting on the 3d part to be printed so I can install pneumatics but things keep moving just a little closer. Seeing the engine go around the outside and under its own power for 10' sometimes was really kind of fun. It's been a lot of work getting to this point and I can't wait to finish up the rest so I can sit back and watch it -- as interesting as it is when static I can't wait to see it alive.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Well. Summer is about over and no running railroad yet.  I haven't worked on the railroad much I'll admit. I have been waiting for two things. First was a 3d printed switchbox that would hold the clipper SDR-05-1-2 cylinder and the second was for roadbed for the railroad that is recycled asphalt so there's a little tar to hold together (during rain). Good news is I now have the 3d printed switch boxes installed but have run into bad timing several times in trying to get the recycled asphalt out.

But regardless of the rock, I have run a locomotive around the track (though it derails at various places because the roadbed isn't installed) and so far everything is looking really good.

I also have landscaping and the reversing loop bridge to make. And a metal bridge on the north side as well, though the second temporary bridge is working fairly well for now.

Here's some photos of the switch box and some more retaining I've done.


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

If anyone is going to the 2019 NMRA convention, my layout will be on layout tour. Feel free to contact me if your can't make the official bus tour and I can setup a time for a private tour if interested.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Brandon do you have any current pics of your layouts, I love your mountains. 
Good luck on your open house
Dennis


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

Tour is tomorrow, here are some photos I took today.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Brandon;

Sorry, no photos showing.

Yours,
David Meashey


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