# Help with supplies for Railroad?



## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi everyone, I have decided to make a concrete roadbed like Marty's
. I plan on doing battery power. I have train engineer, and plan to do a trailing car with batteries and reciever to start. I have code 250 AMS flex track and want to know what I should use to connect the track together and do I need to buy a railbender to curve the track. I would also like to know what is the best method for doing battery power? By this I mean Safety, easy use, longest runs, and cost? I eventually plan on putting power in the engine and having a reciever mounted in the engine. A







ny insight would be greatly appreciated. I have not found much support so far in this area of the country. But I am always keeping an ear out.Thank you all!


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## AzRob (Sep 14, 2009)

What part of the country is that?


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

For joining the rail, you can use regular rail joiners or go all the way to rail clamps. Since you don't need good electrical connections, anything will work. 

If you are not running real tight curves, you can bend the rail without a rail bender.


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

I live in Western NC


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

I was going to use larger turns. I just didn't know if it was safe bend them. I didn't know with being outside in the weather if you needed to do rail clamps to prevent them from spreading apart. It seemed like the ones that came with the track will come apart fairly easy. So I didn't know if rail clamps were over doing it or there was a cheaper alternative since I'm not going track power. We don't see lot of cold weather here but it does stay around the 30's for a week or so at a time 3 to 4 times a year. So I was trying to think ahead to fastening of track to concrete surface and dealing with heat and cold. Thank for info I appreciate it? You guys are great!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't know with being outside in the weather if you needed to do rail clamps to prevent them from spreading apart. 

There's some interesting photos around of track that was rigidly connected with rail clamps, and then the sun came out and it got really bent out of shape. 

My layout, which was set up for live steam and battery and thus no track power, had the rails loosely held in position by the ballast. Sections were connected with rail joiners, which allowed for some expansion/contraction. With ballast you have to go over the track every year and look for problems, so checking the joiners wasn't a chore. 

I would think that pre-bending the rails would be a good thing, even for large radii. Mine were 10' (20' diam) and were pre-bent. They never gave me any problems.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

One thing about reshaping track geometry is you lose the ability to put sections together as easily. The outer rail shrinks and the inner grows! How easy do the ties slip over the joiners? Track is actually stronger when the joints are offset. At some point you will need to cut the rail to fit. 

I think Pete meant his 'track' is in ballast, mine is too. It 'floats' in the rock and I get extreme temperature changes...20s to 110s and have never had a kink. Though I am using Aristo Stainless and screwed joiners. On my curved trestle the track isn't secured so I added an extra stringer and spaced them wider for better rail support. Under the ties you don't notice it. 

If you secure your track to the crete, then you should add an Expansion section (the rails are split to slip by themselves) or two. 

John


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By jeffczar on 24 Oct 2009 10:08 AM 
I live in Western NC Hi Jeff,
I also live in WNC.
Near Lake Lure.

Most of my LS purchases are made online.
Ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... I thought the questions were not about track, but "Safety, easy use, longest runs, and cost?" re:batteries. 

1. Safety. I believe that li-ion can be safe, even charged in the loco or trailing car. Get a good charger, monitor the heat and length of run time, don't buy the cheapest li-ions you can find. Nicad, Nickel metal hydride, gel cell all are less problematic. I'd feel safe with any chemistry as long a proper precautions are taken. If I was charging li-ion batteries in place, I would have a place that could not catch on fire if in the rare case, you had a problem. A metal plate under the car, etc. 

2. Easy use. Smaller is easier to fit into locos. Ease of charging is all about the same. I think size is the biggest issue once you have a quality charger, which I recommend for ANY chemistry. Li-ion wins here for me. 

3. Longest runs - li-ion, by virtue of being almost the power/volume, wins easily here. 

4. Cost - ok, cost is the other way, the li-ion will be the most expensive per watt-hour. Then nickle-metal hydrides, then nicad, then gel cells. As you pay less per watt/hour, the size and weight goes up. There is no free lunch. 

When going battery you need to consider if you will equip every loco with it's own battery, or make a few trail cars and share them. If you have a few locos, this might not be a big deal, but when you get over 4-6 locos, the total cost will be heavily affected here. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff I would still recommend using a rail bender for more uniform curvature. I would also use the rail camps even tho you will be using battery for power. It will help keep the joints together and control rail expansion. I would try free floating the track before I'd invest to much in concrete especially in your area. I live in GA and mine is totally free floating and have no problems. Save money. Later RJD


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg, a little bit down the thread our friend dicussed track as well... but good to cover the other as well. 

John


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Greg got focused on the Battery side. Yikes. Later RJD


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

Thank you for all your help! You guys have given me some things to consider that was what I was looking for. I really have no experience with trains other than very basic lionel setup. So I have been reading a lot of post in other forums from you guys. One of the reasons I have been leaning towards concrete roadbed is I live on top of hill and can have some pretty high winds at times so I thought it would be worth the extra investment to secure the track. I don't know how much that will affected the ballast. What type of ballast is best to use or most commonly available? 
What is the recommended battery setup in terms of volt/amps and such? 
Do most people use pre curved track or do they just bend rails? 
if you bend rails yourself how much do you guys overlap the rails? and can you get clean cut when you cut outer rail? 
My other concern was if I use pre bent rail then I felt it would be difficult to know what radii I would need and how much? I felt like I would have a lot pieces left over. 
Thanks for everything guys really appreciate it.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Jeff,
I live in your general area.
I free float my track on gravel ballast.
It has endured 100mph winds, as well as 12 inches of rain in just a few hours.


The one reservation I have against concrete roadbed is the extra work required to make changes.
My GRR was started about 18 months ago. In this time I've made numerous changes. If my track wasn't free floating on gravel,

I would have probably had to do without the improvements.
Ralph


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff,

I live in your area also and, like Ralph, float my track in ballast. I put weed barrier down first and then lay in at least 2" of ballast in a shallow trough. The track goes down and then I add a layer of ballast over the track and brush it in. Works great. In additon, the fact that the track floats freely allows the track to move when temperatures get high.

My layout is in full sun and I've noticed that heat does have an effect. This past summer I pulled up a switch in the morning, did some maintanence and went to put it back in place after lunch. Guess what - I couldn't get it back in place. The opening where the switch was was now a quarter of an inch smaller. This is in the middle of a 40 ft. straight-away. I went back out after dinner and the switch went right into place.

BTW, I use rail clamps on all my connections and I use a Train-Li rail bender to get the exact curves I want.

Doc


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm just outside Charlotte, I run live steam on a raised track, so I'll only address the track issue . I like your idea of laying the track on a solid foundation, concrete in your case. 
On track expansion: IF you have long straight sections, over 30 ft I would recommend a "track expansion section" I use some by SPLIT JAW, and they work well. in the curves IF you use a rail bender you will be able to let the track "float" on the concrete. I use rail clamps when letting the track float. I'm not sure if standard joiners are strong enough. 
My track is secured about every 10 ft to the decking so twice a year I go and make a seasonal adjustment. This gives a very stable, LOW MAINTENANCE track, so you can spend more time running. However as mentioned changes can be expensive and time consuming. The golden rule. Put in the largest curves you have room for, there is no such thing as too big. Your trains WILL run better and look better.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 24 Oct 2009 05:20 PM 
I think Greg got focused on the Battery side. Yikes. Later RJD Agreed, reaction and all, but never fear, he did manage to get a hint in towards.... a favorite! lol

We read these posts and reply with what we think we know best, not odd an electrical engineer would want the thread in his domain...

Yet, I feel that power is better understood once we get a feel for the kind of layout he wants and how hands on as well..

As we help him understand track, maybe he'll let us know the Era and kind of loco's he favors..

Take sound for instance, there are many long discussions on features and gizmo's, yet I've read about some that turn it off!

So we help our friend (sorry I even forget faces) learn and make decisions and when the time is right we have several champions of the art ready to advise.

I hope all y'all have a great day!

John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What kind of Frost to do you get? Do you get extream frost that goes deep? I have concrete Road Bed. I am in the desert. I have not had to level track in years. 
If you do everything right. Level it side to side. Level long lengths. Get your grades up hill and down hill just the way you want them....You should not have to level again. 
It stays pretty much in place. If you have long straight sections you may need expantion rail joints. Depends how hot it gets. If you decided to go with concrete road bed there are several ways to anchor you track. If you do concrete let me know. I will lead you to a post that tells How I anchor my track.


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

Is concrete roadbed over engineering or what problems am I running into down the line if I don't use concrete roadbed? I am worried about since I have not ran trains on layout other than an oval when I was little. Would it be a better idea to do a ballast roadbed and float track. This way I can see if I need to adjust the route or find something works better. I feel like being a rookie I will find where I laid my tracks wasn't the best way to have done it!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jeff, I suppose it depends on whom you ask.... 
Concrete has it's advantages, floating in ballast has it's advantages, also unmentioned yet is the ladder system, while usually used for elevated layouts, it can also be used inches above or on the ground and back filled to appear ballasted.... 

I would suggest starting simple to get some experience. Where I live bare ground is everywhere, I laid my tracks on the dirt in my scraped driveway and soon found that the grade was too much. In the lower areas I dumped rocks for fill work, hand shaped a mound and plunked the track down on it. Quicly it was evident that I had migrating rocks....I was reshaping before every op session... soon larger rocks were added to help hold the shape of the fills, but... The Final method is wooden cribbing and it is great! 

I evolved. The original tri-oval is still there, but I added a passing siding and a spur line to go out into the yard off the driveway. Now that spur has awakened me the possibilities of a pure linear line, point to point with reverse loops at each end. Should I make that change I won't have concrete to demolish, the rocks can go back where I found them...or be reused. 

I float. I reballast only before shows (family) as I've found the track to be steady enough for me and I gets lazy... I gather my ballast on property, the rain washes and sorts the broken rock by size as it washes off the hill behind me. The finest at the bottom. If you choose ballast, use broken or crushed rock, smooth beach sand or river pebbles will be too smooth and won't hold a shape 

The way I see it; Ballast allows for easier modifications, I was a rookie in G gauge, but I've had trains since 4 yrs old... Lionel, 60'-80's HO, 80's -00's On3. I use sectional track....hate it, but was what the only train store in town had... when the bug bit, it had to be done Now! Should I go linear, I'll be bending easement or transistion curves between tangent and arcs.. 

A final thought on this; My stubborness. Had I poured crete, I'd be inclined to stick with it, just for the work put into it. But the urge to move off half my parking area is also a motivating point and I'm not held back by my rookie attempts. 



Nothing to worry about really, more of inconveniences... while having fun. 

How's your health? Does carrying bags of concrete appeal to you? 

Regarding Batterries; depends on the locos you buy; size, manufacturer, number of motors within etc... usual range is between 14v and 22v. My 2 small locos use 16.8v. 

Have a great day! 

John


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Marty uses concrete mainly because he's familiar with how to use it. His track is very nice. We use pressure treated 2 by 6s at the Chicago Botanic. I think the main issue is to use a technique you know how to work with and practice. Realize, Marty has a decade experience and has redone quite a bit of his layout over the years.


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

Thank you all? I feel I have a better idea of what the issues are? I think for me the best idea would be to float the track on ballast and find out if I like what I laid. if down the road I want concrete I will head in that direction. If any one can give me an idea of what I could use for ballast I would appreciate. I don't think I have an area where I can just get in nature. plus I think I will end up needing a truck load of ballast for what I have in mind? You guys are great I'm feeling better already about where my railroad is heading.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Oct 2009 12:21 PM 
Hmm... I thought the questions were not about track, but "Safety, easy use, longest runs, and cost?" re:batteries. 


Hmm... Greg, maybe you should get your eyes checked.







From the OP's 1st post in the thread: "I have code 250 AMS flex track and want to know what I should use to connect the track together and do I need to buy a railbender to curve the track."

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff,

I live in Hendersonville and use crusher fines/stone dust for ballast. I'm sure any company in the area that sells rock/landscaping materials should carry stone dust. It is used for a base material for setting flagstone or brick walkways/patios. These places offer the best prices (in volume). Lowes does carry paver-base by the bag but that could be expensive.

Doc


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## jeffczar (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks doc I appreciate it. I would love to get together sometime to check out your layout if you wouldn't mind. It helps to be able to see other peoples layouts to get ideas. Let me know if your interested. You can email me at [email protected] Thanks for the info I really appreciate it.


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