# Micro torch comments, please



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

As I get nearer to actually begin building models, I'm wondering if one of those small micro torches as adverstised in Micro Mark--or an equivalent--are of any worth?

I know how to solder, braze and weld, but my big torch is just that: made for big stuff. (Though I have tiny tips, I don't like the idea of oxy/aceteylene tanks in my basement).

So, to solder brass I've always used silver solder and you need serious heat to do that. I wonder how much silver soldering is actually done on brass engines and the like? It appears that tin/lead solder would do as well, though it's inherently weaker. But my engines will be small, probably not exceeding six drivers, F scale.

I notice Micro Mark offers a very low temperature 'silver solder' that's "Twice as strong as lead solder!" Is that some kind of epoxy, and if so, is IT any good?

Using an iron is an option, but finding a 100+ watt iron with small tips--or tips for same--might be an issue in this day and age. I suppose I could turn some out of hard copper, but that's not appealing.

WHat's 'MAPP gas'? I hear good things of it but have never had a need, since I have both gas and electric welders.

Basically, all I want to do is neatly solder the occasional brass frame or cab together, or perhaps a metal trackside accessory.

Do any of you use micro torches, and if so do you like them?

Thanks, Les


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a small soldering iron for electronic work, a weller type gun for bigger stuff, and...










For bigger needs. I don't use it very often.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Torby,

Your pic didn't come thru. What tool is it?

Les


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I've heard resistance soldering is the way to go, especially if you are going to be adding a lot of smaller details.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Odd. It's from my web server. 

It's a Ronson butane torch. $25 from Wal*Mart. Comes with a hot air tip and a soldering tip, that I haven't used.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

By,

I know little of resistance soldering. Thanks for the hedzup. I'll look into it. I don't so much intend to do small details, supposing glue/epoxy should suffice, but I am curious about the frames, shells and heavier parts that tend to get stressed by handling, running and whatnot.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Torby,

The second time I went back and pulled your post up it was there. Thanks for sending the pic along. Price looks pretty reasonable too. Flame seems 'fat' compared to MicroMark's Mini torch--but where there's mini-flame there's also likely mini-heat, which could be bad, too.

Les


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I have one of the Micromark torches, and I use it frequently.


Micromark MICRO-TORCH Item Number: 82559 


If you do any work on large pices of brass or copper, then a conventional soldering iron won't work - all its heat gets dissipated into the conductive metal. I used to to re-solder all the bars on the pilot of my Accucraft C-16, for example.
Silver solder works at a higher temperature, so a conventional iron won't work. We use it on live steam engines where the burner might melt ordinary solder. My C-16 has a new number on the smokebox door that I had to silver-solder, as it is right in front of the burner. I use Micromark STAY BRITE SILVER SOLDER AND FLUX, 1/2 OZ. EACH(+) Item Number: 80822


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

Larry Mosher (MLS User ID: lvmosher) used the micro-Mark torch to build his all brass Gilpin tram cars. I went back in the archives to link to the old topic but found that all of the pictures have since been moved or removed so the links only show the little red x's. Anyway, based on what I've seen accomplished with this torch and documented here on MLS, I'd say that it should fulfill your needs.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

Many thanks for the reply and the addr. If you do live steam, I'd expect you know what you're talking about.

Maybe I won't need one--though I'm always looking for an excuse to buy a new tool--since I don't do steam.

The one project I do forsee needing a good weld (or braze if I can get away with it) is, I'm going to start chopping up gearboxes that I've collected to try to regear an engine or two, and shafting will be needed. I also want to animate some of the trackside buildings, and the ability to heat and bend on a small scale might be just the ticket.

Thanks again for the info.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

As I posted Pete, I'm not real sure what my needs will be. I'm a tool nut, but I also foresee a need for high temperatures in a small space coming up when I get to start my RR.

Thanks for the input.

Les


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## hcampbell (Jan 2, 2008)

I use mine for most soldering jobs except electrical ones. It's also handy for lighting larger torches. 

Harvey C.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Harvey,

I rarely use my big torch anymore. There's another good reason to buy that little thing.









Les


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

*Les,*
*When did silver smithing that torch does heat the heck out of the joints. I would say you WILL like it after you played with it and worked with it.*
*And is good for a tool junkie too!*
*Toad*


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

*Les, *
*One thing that never got answered. Mapp Gas and here it is by Wiki*


*MAPP gas is **liquefied petroleum gas** (LPG) mixed with **methylacetylene**-**propadiene**. MAPP is the **tradename** for a product of the **Dow Chemical Company**. In Australia it is known as RazorGas and is a trademark of **ELGAS**.*


*The **gas** is used in combination with oxygen for heating, soldering, and brazing due to its high **combustion* *temperature** of 2927 °C (5300 °F) in **oxygen**. Although **acetylene** has a higher combustion temperature (3160 °C, 5720 °F), MAPP has the advantage that it requires neither dilution nor special container fillers during transport, allowing a greater **volume** of fuel gas to be transported at the same given **weight**. MAPP was advantageously used in underwater cutting, which requires high gas **pressures** (under such pressures acetylene **polymerizes** explosively, making it dangerous to use). However underwater oxy/fuel gas cutting of any kind has been replaced by exothermic cutting due to the much faster cut rate and greater safety.*


*MAPP like all of the Liquified Petroleum gasses is not appropriate for welding of steel, due to the high concentration of hydrogen in the flame. The hydrogen infuses into the molten steel and renders the welds brittle.*


*The gas is also used for **brazing** and **soldering**, under combustion in ambient air, where it has considerable advantage over competing **propane** fuel due to its higher combustion temperature. A typical MAPP gas brazing operation would involve metals such as aluminum, copper, et al **braze** (sometimes colloquially and inaccurately called silver solder) steel parts together.*


*Plumbers** use both MAPP gas and **propane** for pipe soldering and brazing, but MAPP gas's higher combustion temperature makes such jobs quicker. MAPP gas is also popular among glass **lampworkers**, for instance **glass bead makers**.*


*The biggest disadvantage of MAPP gas is cost; it is between two and four times as expensive as propane (depending on quantity, supplier, and bottle size). While nine kilogram propane cylinders are common, the largest MAPP cylinder available in Australia is three kilograms. Additionally, MAPP gas torches often cost more than propane torches, around 3 times as much.*


*MAPP is colorless in both liquid and gas form. The gas has a pronounced **garlic** or fishy odor at concentrations above 100 **ppm**, due to the addition of Mercaptans for safety, and is **toxic** if inhaled at high concentrations.*
*MAPP gas is being replaced in industry by other LP gas mixes, because one of the constituent gasses, Propadiene, is becoming more valuable to the plastics industry than the welding industry. Flamal and Chemtane are two of the newer LP gas mixes on the market.*

*Toad*


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a couple of the Master Appliance MT11 torches. Run on cigarette lighter butane refills. Really good for smaller work, heat-shrink tubing and LIGHTING MY CIGARS!!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Toadster,

Thanks for the extensive info on MAPP gas & the micro torch.

It's all but certain I'll buy one as soon as finances loosen a tad. Just got Grandma's new wall furnace installed. She's 89, will be 90 in Feb. Her mind's clearer than mine.







Have to put in a ceiling fan, a window a/c, do some drywalling and trimwork, and ONE project is out of the way.

Now, where can one buy a torch like that and avoid Micro-Robber's prices?

Oh, FWIW: don't buy their ratcheting tap wrench. You need to be able to back your tap up every quarter-turn or so, depending on the metal you're tapping, to clear the threads, esp with the tiny taps.

Les


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

*Les,*

*I have bought in the past from Santa Fe Jewelers Supply with great service. Here is one but you may find better deal else where.*
*[url]http://www.sfjssantafe.com/itemstable.php?Gid=181&ItemSet=Torches&DepId=tools&ot=&at*[/url]*=*
*And to back that up these boards are the lowest on the net I found.*
*[url]http://rmgsupply.com/products/HONEYCOMB_SOLDERING_BOARD_2_SIZES-776-129.html*[/url]

*Now a note on the solider the guy was speaking of is great stuff from Micro Mark.*
*Toad*


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## dbodnar (Jan 2, 2008)

Our friends at Harbor Freight have a small torch that is much better than I expected - I have seen them on sale for significantly less than $10.00 and the ones that I have work very well.

They have a piezo starter and a base that keeps them stable on a table top. They take standard butane fuel.

I have used them for all manner of soldering projects. Keep an eye out for a sale!

Link to: Harbor Freight Torch 




dave


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

*Dave,*
*Those are nice unless your like me I have destroyed several (more than I want to count) but that is me. I am ruff on my stuff.*
*I can not even have those plastic tool boxes!*
*Toad*

*Sad ain't it!*


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Les,

Before in one of my replies to your question I mentioned that Larry Mosher (MLS User ID: lvmosher) had used that torch from Micro-Mark. And that I had gone back to find the topic in the archives and the images were no longer available.

Anyway, I knew I had made a PDF file of that topic just in case that happened, but in the interm had computer problem (i.e. hard disk failure etc.) any how I knew that I had transferred it to the new computer but couldn't remember just where I had put it, I found it and put it up on the MLS server.

*Gilpin Gold Tram Car.pdf*
File Format" PDF - File Size: 1.9MB
Left-click to Open / Right-click to downdload


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

Many thanks for the PDF. I saved the addr in my 'notes' file. I wonder, can I get a pic or two of that car from someone? I am taken by the simple latching mechanism for the doors, but I won't remember it for more than about two days. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif

Okay, on the torch: I've decided to go to MicroMark and buy theirs. I intend to buy their mini mill next spring--if all goes well--and I want to keep their catalogue coming. I looked at the cheapie at HF, and it just didn't seem like it would be worth fighting with. All plastic and fragile metal of some kind. I'll have mine with the December Eagle Day, and if I solder up anything, I'll TRY to post the results here.

Many thanks for your thoughtfulness.

Les


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I intend to buy their mini mill next spring
Take a good look at Sherline first.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

HF has two sizes of mills... one real small one and another that is almost identical to the MicroMark one. That larger size is still called a Mini-Mill and is the same as several other brands... all are made in the Orient by one or two companies to the same general design... there are only slight differences between them... the main difference is the type of spindle; being either a Morse taper or an R-8 type, so when buying attachments for the spindle (chuck, Collets, mill holders, etc.) you have to be sure you get the right ones.

The MicroMark mill now also has one major improvement in that most of the gears from the motor to the spindle are metal which reduces the possibility of having to completely dissassemble it when you take too big of a bite in a hard stock material (the one plastic one is the easiest to replace, and you WILL have to replace it peridically)


See these sites for more info:
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm 
be sure to click on the "Versions" link.

and
http://www.mini-lathe.com/

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 11/20/2008 4:06 PM
I intend to buy their mini mill next spring
Take a good look at Sherline first. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />


I have .... and I ain't.







Too expensive for the accuracy available. Already have the little mini-lathe, of which the collets sets are interchangeable. There are at least two sub-suppliers (aftermarket) for the Chinese ones, and a couple of websites of mini-lathe fanciers. The add-ons (indexing head, etc) and other bells & whistles are affordable and plentiful.

I will go out on a long, thin limb here, and speculate that Sherline is getting their castings from offshore, as well.

Other than having my mind made up, I'm open to discussion. (chuckle).









Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semp,

Thanks for taking time to reply. I know of these sites. It is the larger of the two mills that I intend to get. I'd almost buy one from HF, but by time I add the cost of putting SAE pitch leadscrews in, and extra shipping, I end up paying only slightly more and avoid having to do it myself.

Now, I was just at HF the other day, and darn me if they don't have the cutest little modelmaker's lathe out on display. It's no-stock, of course. This particular HF, while the easiest to get to, is the worst of the lot here in St. Louis for keeping stuff in stock.

T'were I a LS modeller, I'd recommend a close look at that new little one.

About accuracy: I hear all kinds of complaints about accuracy on these machines. I haven't gotten mine set up yet, but I worked for years with a South Bend that I had to drop a pair of #4 flat washers behind the infeed screw of the carriage, it was that worn.

Apparently many folks bring a lathe home, shake it out of the box, plug it in, figure out how to turn it on, chuck up a workpiece and yell like he-- heck when it doesn't have any accuracy. Don't they understand a tool like that has to be taken down and the cosmoline and dead body parts of rodents and insects and the occasional chinaman washed out with degreaser? Then each part has to be inspected for roughness where it oughtn't be, sharp edges on castings (break 'em) lubed, and reassembled carefully, with torque values in mind? Where undue slop is found, correct it. Tram the bedways, and tram the carriage to see if/where runout is found. That bedway wants lube, too. Check the leadscrew for slop in the end bearing surfaces. And always remember, your're not going to take big, hearty cuts with that machine, it's not got the iron to handle it w/o flexing.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Watch the Morse taper on the Mill vis-a-vis the Lathe and the attachments. They may not be the same. That has always bugged me that the headstock and tailstock are not the same taper; means that, for any attachment type that I might want to use in either end, I have to have two of them.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Semp,

Well, the collets are advertised to fit either the lathe or the mill, it's a fair assumption that both have a common MT. I have the unadorned mini-lathe from the same factory. Raging Bull, I believe some said.

The reason the tailstock taper is smaller is because there is far less iron in the tailstock than in the headstock. Remember, when metal is being turned, energy is being applied to it. That energy has to be absorbed somewhere as well as dissipated by heat. It goes into the chips, tool carriage, headstock and tailstock and from there to the bedways and the bed. Compare the thickness of a wood lathe bed with that of a metal lathe.

Actually, you could use MT adapters. I doubt you'd have a lot of room leftover, but it's probably doable. Accuracy might decline a little, but not enough for modelling purposes to matter.

Les


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 11/20/2008 3:17 PM

Many thanks for the PDF. I saved the addr in my 'notes' file. I wonder, can I get a pic or two of that car from someone? I am taken by the simple latching mechanism for the doors, but I won't remember it for more than about two days.









Les 
Don't know what type computer, operating system, or browser you're using, but if you *right-click* the link to the PDF file, then select and click the Save Target As...[/b] option on the context menu that displays you can download a copy of the file directly to your local computer. That way you've got all the pictures that are in the file.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

Ho, did what you said and it worked like a charm.









I've never used that function, 'Save Target As'. But there it is, right on my desktop. Cool.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

Glad it worked out for ya.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

I've just gotten a chance to skim thru that PDF file on the gondola. I note there's an _excellent_ tutorial on soldering brass, especially the trouble Larry took with the jigging. I don't know how many folks realize what a very important part proper jigging plays in welding and soldering. Saw that torch, too. Impressive. I may switch my aim and buy that one instead. Not sure yet.

Right now it's past my bedtime so I'm kinda foggy, but there's a mini-debate on steel vs brass for construction. Heck, it may be this forum--I'm that tired. If not, I'm going to try to post across and mention to interested parties that this file is an absolute necessity for anyone, including myself. I've soldered any number of very specialized waveguide configurations, but I found the setup and techniques valuable.

Also, it finally connected with me that what people are calling 'resistance soldering' must be a version of spot welding. Is this so?

I gotta quit.

Thanks again for remembering that article and posting it.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Spot welding melts the parent metal into one homogenous material. 
Resistance soldering just gets the parent metal hot enough to melt the solder.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Also, it finally connected with me that what people are calling 'resistance soldering' must be a version of spot welding. Is this so?
Close, but not the same. Spot welding uses resistance to heat sheet metal until it melts locally, with the pressure from the electrodes aiding in material flow/fusion forming a local weld. Resistance soldering also uses electrodes to heat a local area, but the purpose here is to bring the material to soldering temperature without overly heating the surrounding area. 

As to Sherline, so far as I know, all products/parts are made here in America. They don't use metal castings (though they do use molded plastic parts in some areas), and they don't have precision ground ways, etc. However, they are high quality machines with an excellent reputation.  

The only reason I brought it up is because I've heard some complaints about the quality and accuracy of the Chinese made machines. It sounds like you know what to expect though, and know your way around a machine shop, so I'll shut up.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

The basic idea is much the same as spot welding, except the current is limited to just the amount needed to heat the local area just enough to melt the solder and yet keep the area heated very localized.

The following is a link to one of the manufacturers of the equipment, which has some good descriptive information. By the way they are also the ones that OEM the equipment that Micro-Mark sells.

[url]http://www.resistancesoldering.com/[/b][/url]


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve and others,

Thanks for the info on resistance soldering. This is something new to me. Very interesting. Thanks for the link to American Beauty, I've used their stuf for years.

Les


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