# Many Questions



## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Hello,

Its ben years since I have done anything with trains. I have 2 young boys who are into them and I am looking to put in a small outdoor layout. I have a box of LGB Track from the late 90's leftover from when I last had a layout. I have ben doing some reading but have a few questions

What brand of track is best LGB, USA ?

Was considering DCC but radio control is an option. What systems are easiest and last.

Layout size would be not bigger then about 25x30.

I am sure I will have more questions as time goes on.

Thanks in advance for any help


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

You may have 4 foot diameter curves, come with starter sets. Larger curves are better, the size of curves will limit what rolling stock will run. The bigger the better. LGB track is good quality, and has dropped in price lately. Train LI nickel plated is a very good option as it does not oxidise. If going battery this is not a concern. Air Wire is the closest to DCC as any battery control available. We would be glad to help with any way you like to go.

ReindeerPass.com


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks I am very versed in Rc as I do race RC Cars both nitro and electric. However train side might be a tad different as far as radio systems go. I would probably not go with a starter set but rather purchase the track that was needed. 

As far as DCC Vs Radio what are the pros and cons of each?

I am not looking to have long consists of trains either and would focus more on the modern era

Thanks


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Traditional DCC, the power and digital information goes through the track. Advantage is that the DCC language is open source, so many, many options from many manufacturers. Disadvantage is that you have to maintain track continuity. RC-Battery has a few manufacturers that do not mix well together.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a lot more control options and many more DCC decoders that have sound in them. DCC being a standard you can mix and match.

After about 4 locos, DCC is cheaper than battery, even using top of the line DCC systems. The per loco cost is lower.

So, it depends on climate (how quickly your track oxidizes and if you can spend 5 minutes clearing the oxide from the rails) and how many locos you will get, and a number of other things.

Each method has it's advantages and disadvantages.

One advantage on DCC is that almost every system has a way to use a cell phone or tablet to control the trains. Young people especially like this.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

DC and DCC have the advantage that any manufacturer of power sources can be used with any manufacturer of engines/decoders whereas as stated above battery systems are dedicated mostly to one manufacturer.
All of these can be radio controlled, it is an option by many DCC manufacturers, and by some DC power controllers (not starter set type power supplies).


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If you are only going to have a few trains and don't want the bother of track cleaning, I'd suggest Del's line of R/C control;
http://www.gscalegraphics.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
I've never read a bad review of this equipment.
I use it too.
John


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the info I think I will go the DCC route. With that being said whats a good system to get. I would rather buy this once and not have to upgrade it later.

Thanks,

Steve


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

NCE PH 10R

http://www.reindeerpass.com/ncepowerpro-10rdccset.aspx


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Personaly, over time I think you will grow to dislike DCC with track power. Over time rail joints start to get dirty, so you have to spend more $$ on joint clamps. Rails will need to be cleaned and shiny. Even on my small line that took over 15 min to get clean enough for stall free running. I usually had a couple turnouts that I had to solder jumper wires to the point rails to prevent stalling and decoder resets when I ran with LGB's MTS system for a short stint. I dumped it all and went battery RC and have never looked back. As long as the rails are debris free, trains run. I get over 4 hours on each charge for my two locomotives. If you look at most larger layouts that are outdoors in a variety of weather conditions thru the year, most are battery RC using either the Crest Revolution system, RCS or the Airwire system. The Crest RC decoders, similar to DCC in many ways, even come with sound built in now. The batteries you use are your choice, you only have to stick with the same brand for the recievers for each locomotive. My friend runs the Crest system, very nice and very similar in operation to his track powered HO DCC system he uses indoors. Not having to worry about track being clean, joints being clean and voltage drops around the layout is a huge positive. Just like indoors DCC in the smaller scales, you will have to run a heavy gauge buss line under or beside the track with power taps every so many feet to avoid voltage drop around the line. Good luck on which ever system you go with. Mike


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback everyone


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Landscaper, which part of Maryland do you live? My dad's out by Andrews AFB, and has regular operating sessions on his railroad in the summer. He runs Airwire, (not to dissuade you from track-powered DCC) but it's a great opportunity to get out and see what can be done in terms of a railroad and control systems. 

At 25' x 30', you're really not going to be putting a whole lot of track in that space where maintenance with regard to keeping the electrons flowing will be much of an issue, so I don't know that I'd worry too much about that aspect. 

In terms of track, any of the common brands will be just fine. Lots of track-powered folks like stainless steel. That's not as common as brass track, and I'm not sure how plentiful it is at the moment. From an aesthetic standpoint, I prefer brass because it at least will weather to a nice brown patina in the garden. Stainless must be painted to look prototypically rusty in the garden. (Not a big deal, but an extra step.) 

But you may also want to consider flex track. The rail is smaller, so it looks a bit more prototypical, and you have the flexibility of being able to lay your own curves to fit the space you have available. With a smaller space, that's often advantageous. 

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Flex track smaller????
Trainli flex track is code 332 and mates perfectly with other code 332 track and is the same size.
Also LGB flex track is the same as their sectional track, same rail and same ties.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

You know, w 2 young boys, my first thought is to keep it simple and rugged/forgiving, ie track power, stainz, things that can suffer boys 'seeing what she'll do, '. Things that can be replaced, or, abandoned, depending on how they embrace the trains.

W my son. Some 24 yrs ago, i bought him his own loco and cars, so i wouldnt be concerned. It also gave him ownership and responsibility for his stuff.

Depending on thier age, you may find addding playmobil can add to their 'story telling' and interaction with the trains. Very good for young ones, imho, despite being....playmobil (which has its own charm and merits). Much less $$$ than many scale figures, if they are young and want play versus modeling.

I happen to think , lgb, hands down , is the best suited to handling, reliability, no disapponitments. Nothing beats toys that work, even after hard knocks.

I also think sectional track allows for creativity, analysis, and changing the layout configuration on thier part. Go slowly, let them work it and design it then, imho, add and build.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> Flex track smaller????
> Trainli flex track is code 332 and mates perfectly with other code 332 track and is the same size.
> Also LGB flex track is the same as their sectional track, same rail and same ties.


Sure that Kevin is thinking about code 250 rail.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Dirty tracks with battery have better traction, some people it would not matter, for me that is critical, I have lots of grade.
Dennis


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I am in eastern MD near the bay. PM me if you want to talk or visit.

Jerry


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the help, After doing some measurements bit sure I will be able to make G scale work, May have to go to O. The area is an L shape with the right side being 16ft long by 4ft at is smallest point, And going to the left would be 18ft long by 9 ft wide. In the area where the sections meet is a small pond. Not sure that I can really fit in what I want there with G. As for my location I am in Southern MD. Whats the take on running O outside. I know engines and cars would need to be brought in afterwards.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

O scale outdoors has been done. The issue is that the commercial track is not UV stable, so it will have a tendency to get brittle over time, and there's not a lot holding the rails onto the ties. If you're looking to do 3-rail outdoors, you couldn't use the steel track; it'd rust to nothing in very short order. Some folks have used Gar-Graves track outdoors, but I can't remember if they just the rails and did their own ties, or if Gar-Graves had special ties available. Their normal basswood ties won't hold up outdoors. 

You can handlay the track. You'll probably not be able to ballast it as you can the larger scales because the rail is fairly low-profile. 

If you have a chance, sketch a diagram of the space you have available in your garden. We love daydreaming here about what we would do within various confines. Garden Railways is just finishing up a series on small-space garden railroads. You can actually fit a lot into a little space. You may have to compromise the kinds of trains you want to run (modern mainline trains are probably not in your future with that limited space), but there are many other genres of railroading that can be made to fit.

You're not too far from my dad's place. PM me if you want me to get in touch with him. 

Later,

K


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

I have read that the Atlas track is UV Stable for O gauge


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

So after looking at the track I had and doing some test fits it looks like G will work.. so next question what's a good power system to use. Would like to eventually control from phone or iPad. So far have lgb and some aristocraft track will need a few switches


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The NCE 10-amp system Mike (Treeman) recommended above seems to be a very popular DCC system for large scale. You can use you iPhone or tablet to control your trains via DCC. You'll need a PC to interface with your control system, and the hardware to interface them. What--specifically--that entails, I couldn't tell you. I think Google will be your friend there; search iPhone and DCC. *WiThrottle* is one that seems to come up most often in searches. 

Later,

K


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg E. is a source for information on these applications.


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

What is a minimum curve radius for modern passenger cars?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It depends on who made them and whether the couplers are truck mounted or body mounts. My guess is that LGB streamliners should run on 4' diameter curves because all of their cars and engines were supposed to,handle that tight a curve. AristoCraft heavy weights might do 8'Diameter curves with the two axle trucks. I wouldn't run USAT streamliners on anything less than 10' diameter. They have body mounted couplers and there is a lot of overhang on the curve. They look a lot better on larger, greater than 10' diameter curves. If I were going to build a new layout, I'd go with LGB 18000 series curves (15' diameter) or larger, instead of the 10' diameter curves I now have.

I had to remove the center axle on on my AristoCraft heavyweights that had three axle trucks. They couldn't handle my 10' diameter curves. My understanding is that after I bought my cars, they redesigned the trucks such that they could handle 10' d curves.

Go with the largest curves that will fit in your space. Less than 10' diameter may limit what you can run. 

I'm using LGB 18000 series switches. The turnout on them is about 15' diameter. I have no problems running anything through them, but I did have some, not a lot, trouble with the Aristo wide radius switches (10' diameter curve).

Chuck

In general body mounted couplers require larger diameter/radius curves than truck mounted couplers. The truck mounted couplers stay centered near the center of the track. Body mounted couplers swing out often over the outside rail. If there isn't enough lateral play in the coupler there will be a derailment. This can be a problem at the transition between a section of straight track and a curve.


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Ok thanks, next question best way to connect the track together. And will I need to have more than one location that the power hooks to


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Use rail clamps. They are the easiest. I have used stainless steel screws through the rail joiners, it was inexpensive, but a lot of work. I now use clamps. I prefer the clamps that hold the rail directly, not the over the rail joiner clamps.

The number of power taps depends on the length of your track. With rail clamps one tap should be fine for 100' of track. With joiners only, you would need more. I'd start with one and add more if necessary. The brass rail is an excellent conductor.
Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Get the free software JMRI, it will interface to most DCC systems, and I recommend the NCE for most cases. 

JMRI has a built in server, so connect it to a wireless access point, and you can control your trains from iPhone, iPad, Android, laptop PC, etc. The software and apps are free.

The NCE system has a serial port, so you would probably want a serial to usb adapter for you computer running the JMRI software. This stuff is pretty much plug and play, used by many people.

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

IF you go the track power route, use Wahl Clipper Oil on the railheads, very sparingly, and on the track joints. I have 8 year old track that I've NEVER cleaned - and it works better than new track that is uncoated. Make sure the track is clean to begin with, put a couple of drops on each rail, and run trains. I first heard of this when I was doing HO, and, yes, it works. I've also used Bachmann Conductive Oil, but I can't vouch for the long term results...

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I won't argue with Robert, but there's a whole lot of opinions on cleaning rails and whether to keep them clean or some film of oil to retard oxidation.

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg is absolutely correct. The NCE power cab is the best investment I could have made. It works absolutely flawlessly and their product support is awesome! Integration with jmri using the USB connection works well, as long as you read the instructions first, LOL. I won't tell you how I found that out... I actually run my trains using my smartphone. Give me total walk around capability, and I also have a tablet that I use. I can bring up separate throttles for each of my locomotives on my tablet, very very nice.


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the help. Have to pick up some more track


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Have to agree on the smartphone, and it's a great way to introduce young people to running trains, although for "fancy running" I do prefer the ProCab, like consisting, programming, etc.

Greg


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

What brand of rail clamps (track joiner) is recommended


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I use "split-jaw". They work well, but there are others also. Stick with one brand, because each brand seems to have a different driver to tighten the screws. 

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I prefer the split jaw, the independent jaws help alignment of the rails, and they last.

Greg


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Any brand of turnouts I should stay away from. How easy are the manual ones, or is it worth going electric?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

loaded question...

I knew I wanted remote control of all turnouts and the most reliability, and stainless steel, there weren't many choices.

inexpensive turnouts may need some tweaking, pay twice as much and get better ones.

electric operation depends on climate, your drainage, climate, etc.

This is a lot of stuff.

I went pneumatic, super trouble free, easy to install, completely waterproof.

Greg


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

If you don't want to manually throw switches, I'm with Greg on pneumatic

I started out with manual. But I didn't want to walk around throwing switches. I'm a rounding rounder, chair and cold drink kinda operator.

Went to LGB Electric which work great for awhile, then not so reliable.

Then I went to pneumatic. They are outstanding. I use a portable 3 gal. aluminum tank with a quick disconnect to provide air to my switches.

If possible, visit another layout to see how their switches work. I was fortunate to visit Greg's layout awhile back which convinced me, pneumatic was the right choice for *my way of running trains*.

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I'll second these guys opinion: pneumatic is an excellent choice, as is the NCE 10 amp system. Plus, I use 250 code stainless steel track. With over 500 feet on the ground, I don't want to worry about cleaning. And I don't. After a long Northeast winter, once around with the Swiffer and we're good for the year.

JackM

If you don't want to carry around a tank of air, you might want to do what I did. Pancake compressor in the basement with that little hose going out to your switches. Five years getting the window slammed closed on it hasn't bothered the hose one bit. (I use an old X-10 system to turn the compressor on/off from the garage.)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, my compressor is in the garage, and I used the thin line to run several hundred feet. 

Since I used the thin line, I put "accumulators" near the sets of air solenoids, so I have local reserves in case someone goes nuts flipping switches ha ha!

The accumulators were made from 4" pvc:









I have a page on this: http://www.elmassian.com/index.php?...r-operated-switches&catid=20:track&Itemid=116

Regards, Greg


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

As far as diesel engines go looks like my choices are USA and MTH don't see much from LGB


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Buy some used Aristo, the SD45 is a great loco.

Greg


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

Thanks going shopping in the am


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

deleted, I was thinking of a different engine. Senior moment!

Chuck


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## landscaper (May 22, 2016)

What's the thoughts on MTH brand?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One of the great things in a forum that has multiple sub-forums and multiple topics, is the information can be used as sort of a data base of information.

Instead of making a long thread about many different questions, I suggest you keep the separate topics as separate threads. No one seeing this thread title would ever thing MTH loco opinions would be in it.

Do not by shy about starting multiple threads, just look at Jerry, he starts a new one almost every day.

Start a thread on MTH opinions on the motive power forum is my suggestion, etc. Do not worry, people will find a "new" topic faster than one that keeps just meandering.

And, you help the rest of the community that may be searching for answers.

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

What scale are you planning to run? USAt and Aristo are 1:29 and MtH is for the most part 1:32. That is about a 20% difference in size. In my mind a 1:32 car will look small next to a 1:29 car. It is all in the eye of the beholder.S ome are bothered by it and others aren't.

1:32 is the correct scale for the 45mm track we use, but LGB started making modern cars and they were about 1:29ish. Aristo and USAT started making cars to be similar in size to the LGB cars. Scale be damned!!!

I do not have any 1:32 rolling stock, I like the larger look of the incorrect 1:29. The other scales I run are 1:20.3 and 1:22.5/24.

Chuck

I agree with Greg, one new question to a thread and if you can point to the question in the title so much better. Stick with a MTH versus X


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## wpaulin (Jul 2, 2016)

*Battery Power*

This is a pretty compelling discussion to me. I am a newbie, and will make a small, temporary indoor layout with DC track power / wireless. I could still have some non critical track power for some stand alone rolling stock or signs, couldn't I?


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