# What's the best battery?



## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

(I know, that question is similar to which is better, Chevy or Ford, BMW or Mercedes, Aristocraft or USA Trains. Anyhow, while you're here, please read my post)

So I've been tinkering with Li batteries for a long while. I started out by disassembling laptop battery packs and reassembling with the same circuitry inside of an Aristo FB and used the original laptop external charger. I bought one of the original Triton battery chargers to allow me to charge battery packs of my own making (1-4 cells) and stuffed two or three cells into some smaller Bachmann locos 0-4-0 and 2-4-2T using Aristo "HOTE" controllers. Needless to say, I killed a lot of batteries and smoked a whole bunch of stuff.

I finally created a trailing car that had an Aristo trackside TE controller and a phoenix sound card with cables for both sound and power leading back to the loco. I could use it to power steam or diesel locos by reprogramming the sound card. The whole rig was powered by two Aristo Li-Ion batteries connected with a DPDT switch to be able to change batteries and continue running with the flick of a switch.
Here’s the deal, if I don’t turn off the system after the batteries cut off, there is still a drain on the batteries from the TE, and so I’ve killed two more battery packs. 
Since the old Triton doesn’t do any fancy charging (balancing) and won’t charge more than four cells and the Aristo charger is the old type (no cut off) and my Aristo batteries are fried, it looks like it’s time to start over. I’m still cool with the trailing car, but I might like to build some lower voltage battery packs (3-4 cells).

Now the questions:
Can I build some replacement pack that are similar to the Aristo in voltage and amperage and also build some smaller packs and use the same charger? 
I just read about Michael Glavin’s rig in this thread: R/C Battery Operations and was kind of wondering if the charger mentioned on the second page (iMAX B5) can do all that.
Thirdly (and most likely to stir things up), can building my own packs and using the aforementioned charger be less costly than buying new Aristo batteries and Aristo charger (new style w/cutoff)?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can I build some replacement pack that are similar to the Aristo in voltage and amperage and also build some smaller packs and use the same charger? 

>>> sure, just buy a charger that will work with different number of cells, and your aristo pack has 6 I believe... so you need to get a charger that either auto-senses the number of li-ion cells, or can be manually set. 


I just read about Michael Glavin’s rig in this thread: R/C Battery Operations and was kind of wondering if the charger mentioned on the second page (iMAX B5) can do all that. 

>>> I'd ask Michael to be sure... but what I read about that charger is that it works on one to 5 cells, and takes input voltage up to 18... so neither of those specs would allow 6 cells or over 18 volts.. so it looks like it would not work for the aristo paccks. 

Thirdly (and most likely to stir things up), can building my own packs and using the aforementioned charger be less costly than buying new Aristo batteries and Aristo charger (new style w/cutoff)? 

>>>> sure, you can try recycling used laptop batteries, I have done the same... usually there are some good cells left in a "Bad" laptop battery... 

Charge them up in something fireproof the first few times until you know they are in good shape... 

Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I always recommend All-Battery.com for purchasing Tenergy brand Lithium-Ion battery packs and chargers. Nice, simple, and low cost charger, and safer and much easier than building your own packs.

I don't quite understand your comment about killing your batteries after they cut off. That implies they didn't really cut-off completely, and the TE was still drawing current? When you say cut-off, I am assuming you mean the internal PCB circuit board cut-off. Or are you running without that protection?
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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

YEA!!!!!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Killing the batteries, running them down flat, and then they won't recharge properly. In lithiums this is flat out dangerous. 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave, 

Your Triton charger is fine for what you’re proposing. My old Triton works up to 28V should be the specification as yours. The iMAX B5 charger is good for up to 18.5V. 

FWIW: Lithium batteries life expectancy is short lived, 3-5 years is typical in my experience. 

You can certainly build your own battery packs, the 18650 Li-Ion cells are readily available with PCB installed in each cell very reasonably priced at about $6.00 per cell. 

If it were me I’d look at Li-Poly batteries, they are inexpensive and incorporate the battery balance pigtails. A 6S 22V 5000mAh Li-Po can be purchased for as little as $38.00 at hobbyking.com and others. 

Most Li-Po battery configurations do NOT incorporate a PCB/PCM safety circuit. In this regard inexpensive ancillary monitoring devices can be utilized that have displays, indicators or audible alarms to prevent deep discharge. And of course you’d want to use a balance charger; that said the Triton will work without issue sans the balance charge technology. 

FWIW: Your could also purchase an ancillary PCB/PCM safety circuit board for about $11.00 for a 6S configuration and wire into the mix with the balance pigtails in play of a properly equipped Li-Po battery. 

Michael


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Some of my first experience with lithium was with the Navy’s MK-50 torpedo. They used a lithium block and some weird type of juice to create huge amounts of steam to power the propeller via a turbine. The exercise weapons, once fired and recovered, would need to be cooled for several hours after shutdown to prevent things near them from bursting into flames. They could out dive the Russian Alfa and were supposed to be safer than Otto fuel. But all that is a completely different story for another thread on a different forum, and I’ll probably have Navy Nightmares tonight after dredging that all back to the front of my skull. 

My lithium battery experience was back in the day, when they first came out and we heard some curious reports of laptops bursting into flames for no apparent reason. This was before there was much available directly to the hobbyist. I believe most of the danger of fire comes from overcharging, discharging too quickly or damaging the enclosure or layers. I killed my batteries by not disconnecting them (switching them off) after discharging them to the recommended levels, and the TE or the HOTE would continue to drain the batteries (even the Aristo pack with the built in cut-offs). Some of my original attempts did not have any cut-off circuitry. 

All my next attempts will have cut-off circuits, I really don’t fancy burning my house down. 

Michael, where do I find an 11 dollar 6S PCB? The Li-Pos from hobbyking look very attractive, and I definitely want to use the balance type charger. Any recommendations on chargers and cells? Or do you breakup the Li-Po packs? I caught a glimpse of your setup in your Vandy tender in the link I referred to above, I want to do that in a loco or two AND rebuild my trailing car setup.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Does someone have a comprehensive post and or diagram on how to solder and or build a battery pack, with all the info on where to get the parts, PCM boards and such?

That would be really helpful.

Thanks

Bubba


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The "experts" will tell you that you cannot solder to the batteries, and you must use the same equipment as the manufacturers so, spot weld stainless steel to the battery terminals. 

I've never damaged a battery cell from soldering to it, but I am very good at soldering (being taught and running several engineering departments where I had advanced rework techs to train me) 

I am NOT recommending you solder to your battery packs. Should you wish to ignore my advice, I have heard that you have to solder fast with a relatively "fat" tip to keep damaging heat at a minimum. 

;-) 

Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave,

If it were me I’d purchase battery packs that match the voltage you desire. I like 6S or 22V batteries for my trains. Alternatively you can series connect two batteries; for instance two 3S 11.1V 2200mAh batteries; this nets double the voltage (22V for $22.00) and retains the 2200mAh capacity rating. 

I have pairs of 3S 2200mAh batteries that I use in my USA F3’s, they are wyed together with a pigtail and pushed in through the back door (I use the same batteries in RC airplanes). This works out nicely for me as the batteries become multipurpose. I pull the batteries after running the engine(s) and then plug them into my charger or hand held load tester for evaluation, most of the time I simply store them, sometimes I need to bring them up to a recommended storage voltage level and other times they get charged in anticipation of some flight time…

I wouldn’t monkey around with soldering Li-Po batteries at all! Purchase whatever pre-packaged cell combination that works for you and take advantage of the cell balancing plugs for other features.
(there are no issues soldering the batteries power pigtail with plug attached, good old common sense is all that’s required herein)

I have never had any issue soldering Li-Ions, BUT I have the right tools and skill set for soldering same. 

If you go with Li-Ions, you can purchase the cells with integral button PCB’s and you’re good to go. If you want to use cell balancing technology simply add the pigtail when you assemble the pack. Or purchase loose cells, balance pigtail and a PCB.

I was in error, the 22V PCB’s run around $25.00-$50.00, the 14.8V units I referenced last year go for about $11.00.

I don’t use the PCB’s with my Li-po’s I simply check the battery periodically when in use with a handheld pocket ESV which is basically a voltmeter with a 1-amp load on demand, displays cumulative and individual battery voltages. Others may use audible alarms that sound off when you reach the cut-off voltage.

By removing the batteries when charging I don’t risk wasting them from quiescent current draw know matter how diminutive it maybe. If nothing else a good old switch in the circuit is a GOOD idea, this disconnects the power supply from all plausible current draw variables and it’s great for isolating the electronics while charging too!

Chargers run the gamut, inexpensive to grossly over-priced. Since I have about 40 Lithium batteries presently I like the chargers that support multiple batteries under charge/discharge/cycle. I have two chargers that I use for balance charging one is from Hyperian its capable of servicing two batteries at a time and the other is offered by Hitec, this one will charge/discharge/cycle four batteries simultaneously. Choose your poison based on the MAX cell count you desire, multiple batteries under service, input voltage requirements 120VAC or 12VDC, cycling features and lastly battery chemistries in play. 

FWIW: don’t concern yourself about the DC input voltage ratings to much; my chargers are capable of charging 22V 6S batteries with 12V power sources, all my chargers work off 120V power supplies regulated to 14VDC output or 12V gel cells in the field.

Bubba,

I’ll take a stab at documenting the installation of some Li-Po’s in one of my yet to be equipped models in the near future to include material list and sources.

Michael


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 22 Mar 2012 08:45 PM 
Snip...

By removing the batteries when charging I don’t risk wasting them from quiescent current draw know matter how diminutive it maybe. If nothing else a good old switch in the circuit is a GOOD idea, this disconnects the power supply from all plausible current draw variables and it’s great for isolating the electronics while charging too!

...end Snip


Michael, Thanks for the reply. It's a lot to digest, but my first response is to the paragraph above. Mine all had switches, I've just got to remember to put them in the O.F.F position when I'm finshed for the day!


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks Mike...would be greatly appreciated! I am electronically ignorant, but can learn from either pics or directions, just cannot problem solve electronics very well unless it is an somewhat easy probem.

Thanks

Bubba


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

The best battery that is manufactured today is by Sanyo, that is the NC2500SCR NiCd SC HRD (High Rate Discharge) Flat Top Cell designed for impact wrenches taking lug nuts off of race cars. 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using and recommending NC2500SCR NiCd ever since Sanyo uprated them from 2400 mah a couple of years ago 
They are the best, but quite expensive.


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