# Jumping in and sinking...



## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Hello all, 
I am new to G-scale and model railroading in general. 
I have wanted a G-scale railway for years and am now ready to start one. 
Unfortunately I am as lost as I can be /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif One day I think I am ready to start buying track and so on and the next I find myself second guessing and being totally overwhelmed with the amount of choices and information. So I keep putting it off. 

I have read lots of articles on all different subjects that all seem to conclude with the same statement…. “Stop waiting and get started!” but where… that is what I want to know. 
I honestly have no idea what I should purchase/do next. 

My wife while trying to encourage my interest bought me a starter set that I can run in circles but I want to really kick this thing off and make this a large railway. I just have no idea what step to take next. 
I already have a 10AMP Aristocraft power pack that some guy at the Houston Train show convinced me I “had to have to run a large garden railroad” but was that a good purchase? I have no clue. At this time I doubt it as I don’t even know what to do with it. 
Form what I understand it is a good power pack… but is it what I need? How do I hook it up and even dumber… to what? Heck I thought I understood what he was saying when I bought it, but when I got home - I was lost… so it is just sitting in the box ) How much track can the little transformer that came with the set power before I need to get that 10AMP thing involved 

Track seems like a logical choice for a next step but I have no idea what type or code to get. I don't want to just match what came in the starter set if there is a better option available. ? 

Long story short - from what type of track to buy, to what components actually connect between the wall socket and the track, to choosing DCC vs Radio… I am totally lost. 

I really want to jump into this but am afraid that I will make some costly mistakes and that would put a damper on both my budget and more importantly my enthusiasm. 

In case it matters, I live on a cul-da-sac and have a huge backyard and can use as much or as little space as I want. 

Any web sites, books or advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank for your time and input. 

Todd Van Note 
Sugar Land, TX


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr Van Note - firstly, welcome to MLS! Secondly, sit down and take a deep breath. Thirdly, tell us what starter-set you have - this is important, as it might colour our answers to your questions, particularly where the all-important question of track is concerned. 

THEN - find a local large-scale train club, or a member here who can act as your one-to-one mentor to get you going. It can't be me, as I live most of the year in UK, but I betcha that you're not far away from another mls-er. 

Keep a tight hold on that power pack - you'll need it. 

Remember that some of us live in tomorrow as far as you're concerned - you are currently seven hours behind me here in UK. That means that I can work on your questions while you are asleep. 

Now relax, and wait for the offers to come rolling in. 

Best wishes  

tac


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Todd, first off welcome to MLS. There's definitely a wealth of info here but be careful what you ask for....there are a hundred different ways of doing things too and what one person said you'll find 10 to tell ya something else. Nothing wrong with that but it can help confuse things too. 
In my opinion you have to decide what you want to do and just do it. Don't second guess yourself anymore. There really are too many things that can clutter and distract so pick a couple boxes of track, some rail clamps and have at it. 
Battery, track power and live steam are all roads you can travel. Which is best? None really since they all have their own draws and drawbacks. We use MTS (LGB Track power), battery and I also have a Power G throttle for non-LGB track power. No "Coffee Percolators" here (easy guy's I'm just kidding)but that's mostly because of the cost. 
Start simple is the best advice I can offer. Just one thing though, there's an old thought here, when designing the layout use the largest possible curves you have space for. Hopefully you have room for 20's so this way you can run everything that is available from the USAT BigBoy to the small little egg-liners. 

Here is a pic of the MTS Set-up. There is a central station, power transformer and the two modules with the blue and yellow stripes are reverse loo modules that automatically change the track polarity when using reverse loops. They're not hooked up at the moment but when we had them installed in our old layout they worked outstandingly!


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Greetings and salutations.. I am much closer than Jolly Ole England... I'm in Utah.. but still not close enough to do you much good one on one. I know there are more than a few MLS'ers in the Lone Start State, I'm sure we'll get you hooked up in no time.. 

As TAC asked.. what kind of starter set did you get? If it's a Bachmann Big Hauler set, welcome to the club.. probablt 75% of us got started with one of those (myself included). The trains are great.. throw the track and power pack away.. If you have an LGB, USA Trains or Heartland starter set, you're in excellent shape, as the trains are very good, the track is fine as well. 

With regards to track purchases.... what type of trains are you wanting to run... If you just want a train in the backyard, diesel and steam, just fun.. look for code 332 brass or stainless track. It's the most common one and will carry track power (from your power pack) well. It also works well for battery RC applications. (Maybe later, down the road a bit). If, on the other hand, you are a scale enthusiast, a rivet counter if you will, and wnat to run 1: 20.3 narrow guage, then you'll be looking for track other than code 332 ( I can't recall the number, I'm sure someone will jump in). 

POWER: (Yeah). Take a close look at your Aristo 10 amp pack. Is it just a power supply? Is there any way to regulate power between it and the rails? From what you described above I will assume that you just have the power pack, you will need some form of power regulator between it and the track. I reccoment the Aristo Train Engineer radio throttle. Basically it's a TV remote for your train. You place a reciever unit inline between the power pack and the track. The reciever unit has an electronic power regulator in it. You activate the unit with the walkaround transmit unit. It functions exactly like an old school transformer, only by radio remote.. very handy. 

I'll go take some pics of mine and post them shortly. 

Anyway, share some more info with us regarding exactly what you have, and we'll be better able to advise... 

Glad to have you on board... Fell free to ask anything. 
Yer gonna have a great time!!! 

Dave.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Thank you for your promt reply and please call me Todd 
I am sure I came acorss a bit frazzeled... I certanly didn't mean to ) I actually composed several versions of that post but everytime I found myself getting into more and more detail and asking more and more questions. So I hoped to narrow the scope slightly but get as much info as I could in my first posting. 


I will admit though- It is a tad overwhelming when there is so much information out there and most of it is geared toward individuals that are seasoned in the hobby. 

I will check on the type of starter set when I get home and post it this evening or tomorrow. In case it matters, I am not stuck on or tied to that starer set. While it is a great way to get up and running it is a steam loco and I am more interested in the modern diesels. So changing to a different type of track is not an issue. 

I have looked fore a G-scale club to join but haven' had much luck here locally. I did find a club not far from home but I never heard anything back from them after I subscribed and inquired. I also inquired at the local train sotre. Unfortunately while they are beter then not having any options, I sort of left with the impression that they were not overly interested in helping me understand how to get started. 
That is the reason I decided post here... With the hope of finding someone that can offer some adivce and experience before I go spend monies needlessly. 

Thank you again for your prompt response and best wishes on your railroad. 

Todd 

Todd


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

Welcome! And not only will you find more advice than you can handle here, you will also find Books and DVDs on the "Shopping" tab. 

We contributed to Alan Miller's book (he's still around here occasionally,) highly recommend it, and you can get it here: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Shopping/BooksDVDs/tabid/60/wc_vw407/prd/Default.aspx?asin=0873492323


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, Welcome to MLS! And congrats on the starter set! 

My recommendation would be to run the train with the starter power pack first. The size of the power supply is not affected by the amount of track, it's how much power your loco uses. So if the power pack is enough for 20' of track it will run the same loco on 200' of track. But if you get a more power hungry loco or start pulling long trains, the starter pack may no longer do the trick. 

The 10amp power supply was not waisted as it will allow you to run more than one loco, later, or pull long trains. 

The fact that you know there are different codes and materials for track is a good start  Most folks run code 332, brass, and that is probably what came with your starter set. ONE WORD OF CAUTION, if your starter set is Bachmann, then the track is most likely not rated for outdoor use. Code 250 and 215 are smaller and can look more prototypical but they don't hold up as well if someone steps on them. Stainless steel and Nickel Silver are alternatives to brass. Some folks like the stainless steel because it requires less maintenance, but others don't like it because it remains shiny and doesn't weather as nice as Brass. It all depends on what is most important to you. Brass needs to be cleaned periodically to keep the conductivity working well. Some battery folks use Aluminum, which is less expensive. 

DC is what comes with your starter set. It basically runs one train. DCC is more involved and expensive but has a lot more capabilities, like being able to run more than one loco at a time, triggering sounds with the push of a button, throwing switches different directions, etc. Battery has many advantages as well. You don't need to worry about clean track, reversing loops do not require special components, etc. There are a lot of folks that do both here so ask more questions and maybe you will decide on one or the other or both. 

Don't jump too fast, this stuff is not cheap. If you bought a DCC system and decided battery was what you really wanted (or vice versa), that's a big waste. 

Don't forget live steam. This is a viable option with G scale. There are a lot of experts here who can provide their experience. 

I think selecting track is a good step, as without it your loco won't get too far  But a better first step may be to decide on a track layout. If you are not sure about DC, DCC, battery, or Live steam, you can lay track that will work with all. Rail clamps connect the rails together better than the standard connectors that come with most track. They are real nice for electrical conductivity if running DC or DCC. 

I would definitely get your starter set up and running first. Nice of your wife to buy that for you, she is a keeper


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

it is a steam loco and I am more interested in the modern diesels.

Todd, 
Sounds like you lean towards modern standard gauge trains. This 'G' scale hobby is split between folks running big but narrow gauge locos on "g-gauge" track, and others running big but standard gauge trains on the same track! Don't get too confused. 
Take a look at USA Trains and Aristocraft (click link)and I think you'll find those "modern diesels".


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

OK.. Photo Update.. 










On the left is my power supply. It's the Ariostocraft switchable unit. I have mine set at 22 V : 13 Amp. 
To the right of the power supply in the Train Engineer reciever unit. You can see the antenna wire heading up to a peg on the wall. 
In the back is the walkaround transmitter unit, the TV remote if you will. 

Great system, but as has been said above, there is no right or wrong way, just what works best for you.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Dave you Rock! 
Pardon the pun, but it seem to fit with your photo ) 

I am going to find out what type of starter set it is and post it later. 
Your correct though. I just want trains running in the backyard. Counting rivets and so on hold little interest to me. I think those that have the patience are great and they have my admiration, but I want trains running... and lots of them ) 

I believe the 10AMP that I have is just a power supply? I'll see if I can figure that out tonight as well. 

If you are using radio to control the train how do you control any of your switches and so on? 

What are your thoughts on starting small vs. building the layout in my head? What I have drawn up is not overly difficult to build but would take a while and cost more. 
Ultimately that is where I would like this go, so is starting small a good thing or should I just start buying track and moving dirt? 

Thank you for your input... I feel like now at least I can get some answers in laymen’s terms. 

Todd


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I like to think big but start small. So I have the big plan in mind but I bite off a chunk I can handle. You may also realize that small may be big enough. 
One other item before laying track is what do you want to use for roadbed? Lots of options again. Search the Track, Trestles, Bridges and Roadbed forum for "roadbed": 
 Track forum


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 
There should be someone in your area to kind of help you out.


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## castlebravo (Jun 9, 2008)

As a beginer myself I will just say what I did and what I want to do. To start off I got the aristo 10amp with the non remote throtle (less expensive). I purchased a USA trains sd70 in CNW colors. Mine has to be Chicago NorthWestern because of many family conections to them. I then set up a simple loop in my front yard around a small pond I made. I used 12.5' loop and 6- 6foot pieces of straight track. That fit great in my yard and left me in a situation where I could add switches to extend around my house in the future. I also used brass because of cost with the idea I might use battery in the future as my empire expands. The pont of this is get something started that you can enjoy now (it will help keep your interest) but have a dream design in mind to work for. This is a hobby in my mind that can get boring if you every get to the point of "there it is done". 

This is a link to my "start" http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...rumid/23/postid/42261/view/topic/Default.aspx 

Remember it is about having fun. 

Rick


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr Todd - nobody has mentioned it yet, but get yourself down to your nearest Chapter's and buy a copy of the Kalmbach magazine 'Garden Railways'. 

Apart from being full of adverts of dealers - many of whom are forum sponsors on THIS site, and look after us very well - there are usually a load of layouts, accessories and how-to's to give you ideas. 

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences with both your local train dealer and so-called club - neither of them sound like anything but a waste of oxygen and thankfully they are rare. 

mrs tac and I travel to Port Orford OR from UK every year to see OUR large-scale train friends [no name, but everybody knows who they are - hiya Richard and Helen, BTW ]. so I'll be amazed if nobodsy takes up your crie de coeur and comes knocking on your door. 

Best of luck over there 

tac, ig and cwor the crow


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

I second Dave's experience with the Aristo Train Engineer remote throttle. I am using the Aristo 10 Amp power supply with the TE, and it works great for me. I like how it gives me freedom to walk with my train or do switching. 

About track, I am a big fan of stainless steel track. I don't have a lot of time to clean brass track's oxidation, so when I built my 3rd garden rr, I bought all new track. Time to buy the track is now. Aristo has their 'buy 4 get one free' deal going until the end of the month. They also do this in Jan-Feb every year. Basically, you buy four boxes of track, and then figure up the average (using the MSRP) and then select a 5th box of equal or lessor value. When I took advantage of it, I got a box of 20' diameter curves (one box = one circle), one box of 16.5' diameter curves, two boxes of 2' straights and got a box of 12.5' diameter curves for free. Did the same thing with switches. This helped to extend my investment. 

Good luck! 

Mark


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

We have 17 of those at the Botanic Garden. Wouldn't want to run the old way!


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Mark, 
Thank you very much for your input. 
I may well get a small layout up and going right away to keep me motivated. 
I will certainly look into the Aristo deal. Do you have any thoughts on shipping vs. buying local? 
I know brass is expensive but I think it will cost me about $16 to have a box ships via UPS ground. Do you think that factor may cost me more in the long run then buying it locally?


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Thank you all for your input... it is a breath of fresh air to get some simple answers and not be pressured or ignored. 
A few more questions if you donâ€™t mind chiming in. 

Track power â€" As I said I can make this as big or little as I choose. Right now I am planning on putting my layout in the middle of the back yard and am setting aside an area that will be 30â€™ x 40â€�. Running an under ground power line over to that area is no big deal... but is a single line on a 20 amp breaker enough for a large layout? 
Also I would like to burry the power needed in strategic places around my layout for switches, accessories and so on. Do you have any suggestions as to how often or far apart and what gauge wire I should use for this? And No I am not planning on my initial layout taking the whole 30â€™ x 40â€™ but as long as I am running power I would like to get those lines buried while I am in the digging and foundation phase if needed. 

Location â€" One day I would love to put a track that does a loop around the front yard. However living in a subdivision I am a bit concerned about the lawn guys wrecking it, neighbor kids, etc... Do any of you have any portion of your layout in the front yard and if so have you run into any problems? 

Switches â€" Do most people use manual or electric switches? I know with DCC you can control the switches remotely from the hand controller. Is that a viable option for a G-Scale layout and if so do I need to run power over to every switch or can I tap into the track power. 

Operating the trains â€" Can you run more then one Loco with the Aristo Train Engineer? Are there servos and so on required with installation for that type of RC contoller. 

Thank you again for your input opinions. 

Todd


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd: 

Two things. 

With regard to how I do my switching. All my turnouts are manual. With the TE remote I can control the speed and direcion of my trains form anywhere in my yard, so I can walk over to any switch and manually set the turnouts. To me anyway, I feel more connected, a more active participant in my railroad. 

Track, buying local -vs- mailorder... In either case you'll end up paying the shipping. If you order online yuo'll get a much better price up front, but have to pay shipping cost. If you buy local, it'll cost more on the floor since they include their shipping cost in the retail price. 

StAubin junction, an online retailer is located in LasVegas. That's probably the closest major mail order house to your location (hence, lowest shipping cost). Good folks there, I order quite a bit from them., worth a look for you. They sponsor this beginners forun, click on their banner ad above. Also, when ordering track, don't order anything over 4.5' in length, any bigger and you enter the workd of oversize shipping and it gets spendy in a hurry. 

My 2 cents...


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Thank you Dave that is the kind of info thoes of us just getting into this need. 
I will give then a look and see what I can get track wise. I will also look into the the TE system and see what is available. Do you have any idea what a fair ball-park price would be for that type of system?


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Both StAubins and Wholesale trains has the Train Engineer TX/RX in the neighborhood of $130.00 to $150.00.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Jimtyp, 
Thk you for that HOST of information. You made some really good points. 
I would very much like to be able to run more then one train at a time and controlling switches remotely is something I would really like to be able to do. I guess I am wanting the best of both worlds. I want to be able to switch a train from the other side of the layout but be able to be right down at track side to see all the action so why not switch it by hand? 
The biggest advantage I am seeing to battery is the whole track power issue. Simple track power I comprehend.. reversing loops not so much. You might say they throw me for a "loop". 

I think. I am going to start and just layout some main line and see where it goes. I am leaning toward DCC but the wiring is giving me pause. 

Thank you again for your input. 

Todd


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 
Wiring for DCC is actually pretty simple, which is why I went with it. I have 2 wires that run from my DCC system to the track (145') , that is it. The reason for this is that the rail is not only the power it is a way to send commands to throw switches and run locos. However, DCC is more involved in that it requires decoders in each of your locos and switches or whatever you want to control. Switch decoders, for example, can tap into the closest rails for power and to receive commands. 

There is another system called DCS, but only one vendor supports it, that I know of, MTH. But MTH makes some really nice modern diesels, which you said you prefer. so you might want to check it out. MTH makes 1:32 scale locos and rolling stock. This is actually the correct scale for standard gauge locos running on 45mm gauge track, which is what G scale track is. However, some like 1:29 scale because it's a little bigger. You said you weren't into counting rivets, so you might want to check out Aristocraft and USA Trains also. 

As i said before though you might also check out battery options, the main two systems that I know of are RCS and Airwire. Airwire works like DCC only with battery and a decoder like DCC. RCS has a lot of followers and I've heard a lot of good things about it. 

The Train Engineer is used by a lot of folks here also so if you go that route you should be able to get help here if needed. 

Another proprietary system is MTS, from LGB and Massoth. I would only recommend it if you are going solely with LGB. 

I have not gotten into live steam myself yet, but someday.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

On my original 2 layouts, I used the power clips that came with starter sets. Not the best way to go. On my current layout, I ran jumpers from point to point, also not the best. I also used solid copper wire. Very stiff. Last summer, I rewired the layout using low voltage outdoor lighting wire. It has two insulated conductors and is ready to be put in the ground. Some folks are more proactive and use PVC piping and junction boxes to run their wiring. I am too cheap and lazy to do that. However, I ran feeders this time from a central location. My train performance has dramatically improved. This stuff was bought at Home Depot and was relatively inexpensive. 

The local store vs mail order debate surfaces on from time to time here. On the one hand, being able to go into a store and see and touch the product can be very handy. On the other hand, many shops think that large scale is like O scale, in that the MSRP is what should go on the box. When I look at buying from the mail order places, they are typically 25-35% less than MSRP, and even with shipping, I am making out better. Plus, there is no added value from my local hobby shops as most are focused on O gauge and HO gauge and could care less about large scale. 

Mark


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 08/20/2008 8:22 AM
Thank you Dave that is the kind of info thoes of us just getting into this need. 
I will give then a look and see what I can get track wise. I will also look into the the TE system and see what is available. Do you have any idea what a fair ball-park price would be for that type of system? 




Like I noted - you can start getting ideas on the various costs of rolling stock and ancilliary equipment by looking in the 'Garden Rail' magazine. 

tac


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

BINGO! That is what I am running into. Here if it is not O or N it is not overly supported that I can find anyway. So far I have been stuck going onto the WEB and there are as many options, opinions and web sites as there are stars in the sky which is more confusing than anything. 

For my wiring â€" So if I go with DCC I donâ€™t need to worry about reversing loops? 
Also from a central location (which I anticipate should be close to the main 110v power outlet) would I then run insulated wires in PVC or not to each individual switch or accessory? 
I was thinking I could run a few sets of heaver gauge wire to several pre-planned areas and then from there branch off with lower voltage wire to my switches or, lights or whatever. 
I guess I may run into voltage issues, do switches and accessories (lights, etc..) use the same low voltage? 

What are your thoughts on FLEX track? St. Aubin has a what seems like a great deal (under $4 per foot) on solid brass flex track but I am not familar with the brand name or the use (bending) of the flex track.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

I don't have any reverse loops, but yes, reversing loops will require special wiring or a component called a reversing unit, or you may use special switches which have a micro controller in them so they can dynamically change polarity. You don't need to run separate wires from your central power system but some do because they want a separate power supply to run their switches. Depending on the number of switches and locos running, you may need to do this, but I don't as I only have 2 switches which have an insulated frog and no reverse loops. There are several folks here that have reverse loops and can provide help and recommendations. 

Your wiring plan sounds like a good one and I've heard of others doing it that way. Most switch decoders in G can handle the higher voltages of G, up to 24v. Structure and street Lights generally do require less voltage, normally 12v to 16v. Some run their lights off a separate malibu lighting system. I use a solar malibu system and put LEDs in my structure lights. 

NOTE, if you keep your minimum curves to 8' diameter or bigger you will have a lot more options for running various locos and rolling stock. 

I really like the FLEX track as long as you can keep your curves relatively large, like 8' diameter or bigger. And I would recommend a rail bender - the Train Li is the ultimate dual track bender. You can bend by hand (or belly bend) but I had some problems of non-continues curves, others have hand bent and have reported no problems. Yes, check out Accucraft/AMS flextrack, I think several have it in brass, code 250 and 332 for a good price. My next layout will be nothing but flex track and switches. 

Make sure you have a good roadbed, i.e. foundation, for your track, and try to keep grade to a minimum, less than 3%. Many options exist for roadbed, and some also use a raised bench layout. Do some searching in the Track forum for the various schemes.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 08/20/2008 10:08 AM

What are your thoughts on FLEX track? St. Aubin has a what seems like a great deal (under $4 per foot) on solid brass flex track but I am not familar with the brand name or the use (bending) of the flex track.




The AML flex track that StAubins has the deal on is excellent stuff. It's Accucrafts brand of track. As stated above, it may say Flex, but it ain't N or HO.. you'll need a track bender if you want to form your own curves.


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## jdmitchell (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry to here about the LHS problem. Just north of you in Porter is Mike's Hobby Shop. I live 2 hour north east of there and between this forum, Garden Railways mag and Mike's I have load of great info. At least once a day I am on this forum reading and learning. You found the best place to get the information you need to choose what will make your RR.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Thank you for the heads up on Mike’s. 
Porter is a bit far for a quick trip in an evening but if I play my cards right, the wife might just like to get away for a Saturday ) 
Do you know if they have a web site? 

Thanks 

Todd


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

If you are going to run DCC or track power you are going to have to wire just like O, HO, N scale. If you don't want any wiring problems you will have to go with a battery car. Then you can put in reverse loops,and Wye's with no wire and 
run with out throwing switches.


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## jdmitchell (Jan 2, 2008)

www.mikes-hobbyshop.com. Exit North Park Drive off US 59 in Kingwood and go through the light just past the used truck lot and turn right on Knox Drive. I get there about once every two months and almost always walk out with something new. I'm looking forward to hearing more about your RR.


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## leonpete (Jan 4, 2008)

Todd, 
You should give battery power some serious thought. It would save laying all that power wire in ground. Plus , wire is not all that cheep. You can buy modern diesel power all ready wired for battery car hookup. Also, you don't need to buy expensive rail clamps. Just use the ones that come with the track. Get a couple Milwaukee 18 volt, 2.4 amp hr. batteries and a charger, install a Aristo TE receiver in a box car along with the battery, or better yet get an airwire set up and your in business. Wish I would have started that way. You can run 2 or more trains on the same track, depending on how many receivers you get. DIRTY TRACK, who cares.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By leonpete on 08/21/2008 12:25 AM 
Todd, 
.... Also, you don't need to buy expensive rail clamps. Just use the ones that come with the track. .......

I'm not so sure about this one. It all comes down to personal prefferance but when you add up all the lost screws, screws that don't work with the supplied driver (more times than not this is the case), the frustration of trying to get the dang screws outta the wax and then into the holes plus the constant tightening and retightening that has to take place through the course of a year..... IMHPO and given the fact that my hands don't work nearly as well as they did even just a couple short years ago.....moving to rail clamps was worth the investment. 

Using the rail clamps allows me to also keep the MTS and MRC Power G track power for others to be able to enjoy. There are many that run battery, personally I love it but since we've had visitors in the past that don't, it's nice to be able to offer options to everyone especiall now that most battery set-ups run isolated (pickups removed) or have a switch that allows the pick ups to be disconnected. Not had a problem yet


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd, 

Nobody has mentioned this, so I will chime in. 

First thing you should do is to take your beginner's set and set it up on the grass. Just pick a spot where you think you might like to set up your permanent layout and set it up. Use the controller that you have and leave the track set up a few days. Take the electrics inside when you are not running. 

This accomplishes a couple of things for you. You get to see how much room things need so you can plan on how much you can build. You get to see how the land is regarding fills etc. And you get to see how comfortable it is to operate there (too sunny, too many roots to trip over, and other things). 

Try setting up the track in a few places and see which one is best. Now you can worry about buying track and other things as you will have some idea of how much and what you will need. 

Hope this helps.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Jim -Thank you for the directions and site info. 
I may take a tipr up there this weekend. 

Do you know if they have any operating layouts that kids might liekt o look at? I have a 9 year old nephew that might like to tag along... but only if there is something running


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By cmjdisanto on 08/21/2008 6:55 AM
Posted By leonpete on 08/21/2008 12:25 AM 
Todd, 
.... Also, you don't need to buy expensive rail clamps. Just use the ones that come with the track. .......

I'm not so sure about this one. It all comes down to personal prefferance but when you add up all the lost screws, screws that don't work with the supplied driver (more times than not this is the case), the frustration of trying to get the dang screws outta the wax and then into the holes plus the constant tightening and retightening that has to take place through the course of a year..... IMHPO and given the fact that my hands don't work nearly as well as they did even just a couple short years ago.....moving to rail clamps was worth the investment. 
Using the rail clamps allows me to also keep the MTS and MRC Power G track power for others to be able to enjoy. There are many that run battery, personally I love it but since we've had visitors in the past that don't, it's nice to be able to offer options to everyone especiall now that most battery set-ups run isolated (pickups removed) or have a switch that allows the pick ups to be disconnected. Not had a problem yet 




I am not sure I understand this one? Are we talking about simple "joiners" vs. "rail clamps" or "good quality" rail clamps vs. "less expensive" rail clamps. Not having purchased either, I am unclear on the whole screws in wax and lost screws aspect. 

Thanks for your clarification. 

Todd


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By leonpete on 08/21/2008 12:25 AM
Todd, 
You should give battery power some serious thought. It would save laying all that power wire in ground. Plus , wire is not all that cheep. You can buy modern diesel power all ready wired for battery car hookup. Also, you don't need to buy expensive rail clamps. Just use the ones that come with the track. Get a couple Milwaukee 18 volt, 2.4 amp hr. batteries and a charger, install a Aristo TE receiver in a box car along with the battery, or better yet get an airwire set up and your in business. Wish I would have started that way. You can run 2 or more trains on the same track, depending on how many receivers you get. DIRTY TRACK, who cares.



Battery Power sure sounds simpler as far as powering the loco and not having to worry about wires and reversing loops, but I am concerned about being able to throw switches remotely and operating other features (sound, lights, etc..) Do have any thoughts on how I could/would incorporate these aspects into a battery powered layout?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 08/21/2008 11:52 AM
Posted By cmjdisanto on 08/21/2008 6:55 AM 
Posted By leonpete on 08/21/2008 12:25 AM 
Todd, 
.... Also, you don't need to buy expensive rail clamps. Just use the ones that come with the track. .......

I'm not so sure about this one. It all comes down to personal prefferance but when you add up all the lost screws, screws that don't work with the supplied driver (more times than not this is the case), the frustration of trying to get the dang screws outta the wax and then into the holes plus the constant tightening and retightening that has to take place through the course of a year..... IMHPO and given the fact that my hands don't work nearly as well as they did even just a couple short years ago.....moving to rail clamps was worth the investment. 
Using the rail clamps allows me to also keep the MTS and MRC Power G track power for others to be able to enjoy. There are many that run battery, personally I love it but since we've had visitors in the past that don't, it's nice to be able to offer options to everyone especiall now that most battery set-ups run isolated (pickups removed) or have a switch that allows the pick ups to be disconnected. Not had a problem yet 

I am not sure I understand this one? Are we talking about simple "joiners" vs. "rail clamps" or "good quality" rail clamps vs. "less expensive" rail clamps. Not having purchased either, I am unclear on the whole screws in wax and lost screws aspect. 
Thanks for your clarification. 
Todd 





Well, the "screws in the wax" refers to Aristocraft and USA track, whose rail joiners have a slot in them and a hole in the adjacent rail, this allows you use little stainless steel screws to tie the sections together getting muchh improved electrical connection, the SS screws ar attached under the track in the cavity of one of the plastic ties, and are held in place with wax, hence the "screws in the wax" reference. 

Any refernce to the "screws in the wax" will refer to the standard stock joiners supplied by either USA or Aristo, any clamps are aftermarket items necessitating the removal of the stock joiner. 

I'm not sure about "good quality" either, both Hillmanns and Split-Jaw make a fantastic product, there have been "lesser" products over the years, some like SanVals screw plate clamps are perfectly functional, they just dont look very prototypical.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Idraw4u on 08/21/2008 11:59 AM
Posted By leonpete on 08/21/2008 12:25 AM 
... but I am concerned about being able to throw switches remotely and operating other features (sound, lights, etc..) Do have any thoughts on how I could/would incorporate these aspects into a battery powered layout?




For Sound, that will come from your loco or tender, that will be battery powered. 

For lights, you will probably have a separate system anyway, like a malibu system that is 12v. 

For switches, you would have to run a separate power system for that, or there are some that use an air system to throw switches.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

For locomotive lights and sound, that comes from either the track or the battery. Lights in your buildings can be done with outdoor lighting circuits. 

There's no right or wrong way to do this. It all comes down to personal choices. The easiest thing to do is throw the track in the grass and play, as suggested. That is, if you're not using Bachmann track. For me, I like to watch my trains run and run. That's what I find enjoyable, and its what I am able to do. I am usually watching a 10 month old, flipping burgers, playing with a dog, and running trains. Might even have a beer mixed in with all of that. Switching can be fun, but is not my focus. There are a lot of folks that love battery power, and there are a lot of folks that only run track power. There's no right or wrong way, and both have their pros and cons. Since you already have the 10 amp pack, you might as well get the controller for it, and at the very least, you can use it for your test bench. Did anyone tell you that you're going to want to have an indoor railroad for 'testing' purposes on rainy and cold days?! 

I don't have a problem with the track screws that connect the aristo track together. One of the tricks I found out is to forget the screws in the wax and buy the track screws that come in a little bag. They have a slightly deeper socket, and stay on the end of the little hex tool (provided in the boxes of track). Either that, or a little dab of grease on the end of the tool, and the screw will stay on untill you can get it started. Another good trick I saw recently was at a friend's house. He had used some Aristo track clamps that had a phillips head screw so you could tighten from above (instead of trying to go in sideways). I have had to paint my allen wrenches, too. Far too often, I have lost one in the ballast or on the ties. Luckily, I haven't lost one across the rails. 

Mark


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 08/21/2008 1:48 PM
For locomotive lights and sound, that comes from either the track or the battery. Lights in your buildings can be done with outdoor lighting circuits. 
There's no right or wrong way to do this. It all comes down to personal choices. The easiest thing to do is throw the track in the grass and play, as suggested. That is, if you're not using Bachmann track. For me, I like to watch my trains run and run. That's what I find enjoyable, and its what I am able to do. I am usually watching a 10 month old, flipping burgers, playing with a dog, and running trains. Might even have a beer mixed in with all of that. Switching can be fun, but is not my focus. There are a lot of folks that love battery power, and there are a lot of folks that only run track power. There's no right or wrong way, and both have their pros and cons. Since you already have the 10 amp pack, you might as well get the controller for it, and at the very least, you can use it for your test bench. Did anyone tell you that you're going to want to have an indoor railroad for 'testing' purposes on rainy and cold days?! 
I don't have a problem with the track screws that connect the aristo track together. One of the tricks I found out is to forget the screws in the wax and buy the track screws that come in a little bag. They have a slightly deeper socket, and stay on the end of the little hex tool (provided in the boxes of track). Either that, or a little dab of grease on the end of the tool, and the screw will stay on untill you can get it started. Another good trick I saw recently was at a friend's house. He had used some Aristo track clamps that had a phillips head screw so you could tighten from above (instead of trying to go in sideways). I have had to paint my allen wrenches, too. Far too often, I have lost one in the ballast or on the ties. Luckily, I haven't lost one across the rails. 
Mark



Thank you Mark. No, no one has mentioned having an indoor test track. In the big picture I am planning on buying a ready built wooden shed from HDepot/Lowes and using that for storage, testing and... getting away ). I will think seriously now about making a it a bit bigger to allow for a small loop and test track "indoors". 

While I am not rolling in the cash by any means, I think I will go ahead and plan on running wire and using DCC. Part of the fun of this for me is doing it a bit at a time and doing the work myself. So if I save bit and just buy spool of wire - I can have a hay-day running it all over. 
I am a bit curious as to what gauge wire works best for switches and lights, etc.. I don't want to over kill but nor do I want use something that will not carry the correct load. I believe you said you just burry your wires in the dirt. What type/gauge wire did you use and does moisture cause you any grief?


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

I was supposed to post this information yesterday but I got sidetracked with my real job... bummer. 
Anyway - 

TRAIN: 
The set my wife purchased is a "Buddy L"? I looked all over box and did not see manufacturer. The kind fellow at my local train store stuck it to her for almost $400 for the set. Granted I greatly appreciate her willingness to surprise me but I think she got taken advantage of as I saw them not a month later at the train show and they had the exact same set for $300 and you can find the on E-bay for about $150.. Oh well lesson learned and I love her dearly. 
I also have a used U25B Aristo Loco that I got as gift. My mom won her bid on e-bay and thought I would like it ) 

POWER: 
The 10AMP power supply is strictly a power supply. Aristocraft CRE55460.


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## cmjdisanto (Jan 6, 2008)

Todd, 

I apologize for not getting back quicker but Vic seems to have provided some good insight. Mark also seems to have had success with the screws. More patience and dexterity than I...... Yet I'd like to add that I started out with the screws and stock joiners and drove myself bonkers tring to get the screw to stick to the hex wrench and I tried so many methods even the ones Mark mentioned. Those bags of screws start to add up too and I've also found there's no guarantee that the socket of the head will be any deeper than the ones in wax. 

I've used both Hillman and Split-Jaw with equal success but infortunately I somehow had a bad batch of Hillman clamps. I would still recommend them whole heartedly since Mr. Hillman stood behind the product 150%. I have settled on Splitjaws but bhe Hillmans I have are still holding firm too. I haven't had to purchase anything in some time (Thank God) since we had far more track on the ground in KC than we do in VA. Plus I bought more than I needed from the LHS back in KC. They had them with-in "arms reach" when compared to the web and even sold them at a decent club discount. In the long run it was cheaper than on-line. 

Being as it's all personal preference I just hope that I was able to provide the information you needed.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By cmjdisanto on 08/21/2008 2:43 PM
Todd, 
I apologize for not getting back quicker but Vic seems to have provided some good insight. Mark also seems to have had success with the screws. More patience and dexterity than I...... Yet I'd like to add that I started out with the screws and stock joiners and drove myself bonkers tring to get the screw to stick to the hex wrench and I tried so many methods even the ones Mark mentioned. Those bags of screws start to add up too and I've also found there's no guarantee that the socket of the head will be any deeper than the ones in wax. 
I've used both Hillman and Split-Jaw with equal success but infortunately I somehow had a bad batch of Hillman clamps. I would still recommend them whole heartedly since Mr. Hillman stood behind the product 150%. I have settled on Splitjaws but bhe Hillmans I have are still holding firm too. I haven't had to purchase anything in some time (Thank God) since we had far more track on the ground in KC than we do in VA. Plus I bought more than I needed from the LHS back in KC. They had them with-in "arms reach" when compared to the web and even sold them at a decent club discount. In the long run it was cheaper than on-line. 
Being as it's all personal preference I just hope that I was able to provide the information you needed. 




Very much appreciated. 
Bottom line is I am learning a great deal. I am sure I will end up changing a few things and hear and I told you so or two but getting this kind of information and hearing what works for others is about as much fun! 

Thank you again.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, 

The Buddy L set was probably over priced at $400, but as long as she is happy, that's all that matters! 

I used a spool of outdoor, low voltage double conductor wire. I think it was 12 or 14 gauge. Whatever they sell at Lowes for low voltage wire is what I used. The conductor is stranded copper wire. I did just bury it in the ballast. I am only running track power feeders since my switches are all manual. For powering switches and lighting systems, you might want to consider adding some sort of simple tagging scheme to help you with any troubleshooting. 

Moisture. The main reason I switched to stainless steel track. Here's a photo of my bridge. I have a railroad underneath pine trees, mostly in the shade. This is what the brass track (in the center as a guide rail) looked like after being outside for over a year. Note: these rails were originally purchased in 1995, and were used outside for all but about 4 years. 










You can see that the tops of the rails are slightly more yellow-y than the web or base of the rail. Also in that photo is my old wiring, the solid conductor AWG 14 gauge wire. Great for electrical boxes, difficult for outdoor applications without PVC Conduit. 

I did use hillman clamps where I apply power. They use socket head cap screws. I took the end of the wire, crimped on an electrical connector, then used the socket head cap screw to attach. Really simple. Joe is still correct when he says those little track screws are a pain. I usually have to go around and tighten them about once a year. 

"Test Tracks" are great excuses to run trains in the house when the weather is bad. I simply set up a loop of track around the unfinished basement. This is great for when I am entertaining my neice and nephew who want to play trains, but aren't big enough to help carry equipment outside.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 08/22/2008 5:28 AM
Yeah, 
The Buddy L set was probably over priced at $400, but as long as she is happy, that's all that matters! 
I used a spool of outdoor, low voltage double conductor wire. I think it was 12 or 14 gauge. Whatever they sell at Lowes for low voltage wire is what I used. The conductor is stranded copper wire. I did just bury it in the ballast. I am only running track power feeders since my switches are all manual. For powering switches and lighting systems, you might want to consider adding some sort of simple tagging scheme to help you with any troubleshooting. 
Moisture. The main reason I switched to stainless steel track. Here's a photo of my bridge. I have a railroad underneath pine trees, mostly in the shade. This is what the brass track (in the center as a guide rail) looked like after being outside for over a year. Note: these rails were originally purchased in 1995, and were used outside for all but about 4 years. 








You can see that the tops of the rails are slightly more yellow-y than the web or base of the rail. Also in that photo is my old wiring, the solid conductor AWG 14 gauge wire. Great for electrical boxes, difficult for outdoor applications without PVC Conduit. 
I did use hillman clamps where I apply power. They use socket head cap screws. I took the end of the wire, crimped on an electrical connector, then used the socket head cap screw to attach. Really simple. Joe is still correct when he says those little track screws are a pain. I usually have to go around and tighten them about once a year. 
"Test Tracks" are great excuses to run trains in the house when the weather is bad. I simply set up a loop of track around the unfinished basement. This is great for when I am entertaining my neice and nephew who want to play trains, but aren't big enough to help carry equipment outside. 




A lot of great information there. Thank you. 
So the 14AWG, did you go with that because that is what is needed to carry power to the track locations or because that is what was readily "available". 

I never gave a great deal of thought to shade vs. sun. 80% of my backyard is shaded. That is the reason the wife said to go ahead and do the railroad, we can't get grass to grow ) Are there any precautions or considerations I need to make because of that?


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## Jim Shutt (Jan 2, 2008)

Tod, 
I know that John Frank has provided you the info on the Houston area clubs under the club forum. I would highly recommend you go hang out with the HAGG guys at the mall tomorrow and then spin up to Porter and see Gerhart at Mike's in the P.M. . Mike does have a layout around the ceiling. Also you need to be aware of Papas trains just off Kirby in downtown. If you ever travel west, we'd be happy to see you weekends at the San Antonio Garden Railroad society layout just north of the airport. 
Jim Shutt 
SAGRES


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By Jim Shutt on 08/22/2008 8:22 AM
Tod, 
I know that John Frank has provided you the info on the Houston area clubs under the club forum. I would highly recommend you go hang out with the HAGG guys at the mall tomorrow and then spin up to Porter and see Gerhart at Mike's in the P.M. . Mike does have a layout around the ceiling. Also you need to be aware of Papas trains just off Kirby in downtown. If you ever travel west, we'd be happy to see you weekends at the San Antonio Garden Railroad society layout just north of the airport. 
Jim Shutt 
SAGRES



Jim, Thank you! The wife likes to take weekend trips to S.A. so it is entirely possible that we may get over to see the S.A club layout. Is it open to the public? 
Maybe I will surprise her with a little getaway… 
I look good for being a great husband AND I get to see trains! Yippee! 

I will head up to the mall tomorrow and check out the HAGG. Not sure I will have the time to make it to Mike's tomorrow. U of H has an open house or something and I have an incoming freshmen that wants to go. Hum Trains or my kid’s education….. boy that is a tough one! Haha 

I have been over to Papa Ben's a few times and left sort of feeling like I was an inconvenience and asked dumb questions? Sort of like they felt that if I wasn't there to spend money I shouldn't take up their time asking beginner questions. Who knows maybe they were just having an off day. 

Thank you again for the input... I will definitely go to HGG tomorrow. 

Todd


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Todd! and Welcome to MLS! 
Sooo many decisions. You are right to get your ducks in a row and at least get some idea of what is your taste before spending a lot of money on something you may not even want later. (experience speaking here:blush" border=0> 
Anyway, you have a lot of good information, so just keep asing questions to get more refined in your decisions. 
One thing to keep in mind as far as local hobby stores: the one nearest to me will come as close as they can to prices I can buy something online. 
Good luck! 
Matt 

PS - I have just recently decided to go with battery power for several reasons, including no hassles with loops, etc. However, the main reason was the price of track. If battery power is used, and the track won't be walked on, you can use aluminum, which is _much_ cheaper than any other metal. Just a thought... Also California & Oregon Coast Railroad (http://www.cocry.com) has the best prices I could find.


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## ohioriverrailway (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Todd, welcome aboard. You'll find lots of good information here and helpful people -- enough to make your head spin some days!! 
I think most of us went through the beginner's jitters at one time or another. My local hobby shop doesn't have much in G; the local club is mostly LGB folks who don't get into kit-bashing and other imaginative uses for the table saw. 
Some of the trials and tribulations are on my web site www.orery.com . Maybe you'll find some help there.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

The 14 AWG wire was what was available at Home Depot when I was setting this up. I'd really recommend the low voltage outdoor lighting wire with two conductors. Much easier to use. The solid copper conductor is rigid and that made it more difficult to work with. 

Sun versus shade, I really don't know, but I suspect that the shade tends to keep the moisture near the ground. Some folks with lots of full sun have shown photos of the expansion joints they have made. 

Mark


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm new to this hobby as of last year. Years ago our son had been given some LGB starter sets which were gathering dust. We linked them together and bought some straights and set it up as a christmas treat in our garden. Now it's up permanently more or less, and it quickly got very elaborate. You can see the details on the website. I had no experience other than slapping up an HO layout at christmas a few times as a kid. 

I like track power--cleaning the track is not the big a deal and we like to run at night, with lights in all the passenger cars and some buildings lit by track power. I have all brass track, and cleaning it really is just running an aristo track cleaning car around a few times. I bought a good many track clamps. Aristo makes some that are much cheaper and pretty good. I might eventually switch to stainless track because there's even less cleaning, but now that brass has gone back down there's less reason to. Battery has little appeal to me. 



The little starter set power packs kept cutting out if more than one train ran for very long, so I bought a mean-well DC power supply on ebay, and an aristocraft throttle. Then I decided I wanted remote control of each loco, so I invested in aristo's 75 mhz system. I found a bunch of 75 mhz receivers used, bought some new, and I now have 8 locos running on remote control. In retrospect, the 75 mhz system was a mistake--aristo has discontinued it and the replacement is still vaporware. But it works quite well. I have started switching over to QSI and Airwire, which gives you sound and remote control in one card. 

We fit the train into an existing garden, which was also a mistake--it would have been better to re-do the garden and the train at the same time. Most of ours is in shade.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I also used 14 ga wire I got at home depot


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## gdancer (Feb 19, 2008)

Just looked at your questions and know how you feel as I am up in the mountains in Colo with no one within 200 miles to get help from and laid my first garden ry track just 4 years ago. Most of the help I got came from this Forum. These guys are diamonds....a little rough at times. 

I bought a Garden Ry starter book that suggested I just lay out track on the grass as a starter. Then, one deal said just dig 2 inches of dirt and lay in fine gravel to start. I did that with a simple figure 8, nothing pretentious and easy to take out when I decided what I really wanted to do...i.e, final plan. Like you I had a starter set, but junked it in a hurry, using only the powerpack then bought a Bachman 10-wheeler. I started with stainless track and have never regretted it. Also, I started with minimum 8' diameter and 10' diameter and wished I started with at least 10' as a minimum. This is not a small matter. Ease of operation, fewer derailments and your trains look more realistic. Latest track I bought was 12' diameter. Use the largest your final plan can tolerate. I have moved off my original plan and now have about 400' of track with tunnels, etc, 9 switches. 

Don't worry about choice of power at this point. Just operate with your DC set. I did that for a year then got interested in DCC. I found that my stainless got really dirty after the BAchman wnet around a few times and I had to clean all the time. DCC people say the higher voltage of DCC means less dirt. Ultimately, I think the pot metal cast drivers (which are the pickups) on the BAchman caused the dirt....eletrolysis or something like it. I quit using the BAchman, bought an LGB Mogul and have never had any further problem. I now have 3 LGB's and love them all. I've been a model rr'r for about 65 years: O, HO, N, NN3 and now G gauge. I found DCC to be the most amazing thing that's ever happenedd to RR'ing. But defer your decision until you've had a chance to really look around and you can operate in DC until you decide. FYI I have an NCE 10 Amp set up I got at Tony's Train Exchange and have found it more than adequate to run all three LGB's simultaneously, all with sound. The complication of DCC is dealing with all the decoders and programming. Being 76 years of age (today!), I don't do much prgramming and have never felt the loss. 

To recap my advice: Throw some track out there and run your engine. You'll learn a great deal while "doing" and also come across the questions you really need to ask the club members and this forum. I do not recommend drawing a big plan and trying to do it in parts. Put down something you know you'll tear up in a year and so don't hqve to build with concrete, etc. 

One other piece of advice: not for your "temporary" play with for one year pike, but for your long term: track laid on the ground is **** on the knees; esp trying to connect track with those little Aristo screws or even clamps. Many people have suggested build some, all or a lot of your RR a couple or 3 feet off the ground. That's really worth thinking about!!!!!! And that can be done easily by building 4 x 4 supports stuck in concrete deck piers or by building an elevated garden, which many of the RR's do. Another point: someone said switches are a real bane, requiring heavy repair and maintenance, etc. They're right. I'd suggest keeping your switches to a minimum. 

Welcome to this great world. And happy engineering!


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Posted By gdancer on 08/26/2008 5:06 PM
Just looked at your questions and know how you feel as I am up in the mountains in Colo with no one within 200 miles to get help from and laid my first garden ry track just 4 years ago. Most of the help I got came from this Forum. These guys are diamonds....a little rough at times. 
I bought a Garden Ry starter book that suggested I just lay out track on the grass as a starter. Then, one deal said just dig 2 inches of dirt and lay in fine gravel to start. I did that with a simple figure 8, nothing pretentious and easy to take out when I decided what I really wanted to do...i.e, final plan. Like you I had a starter set, but junked it in a hurry, using only the powerpack then bought a Bachman 10-wheeler. I started with stainless track and have never regretted it. Also, I started with minimum 8' diameter and 10' diameter and wished I started with at least 10' as a minimum. This is not a small matter. Ease of operation, fewer derailments and your trains look more realistic. Latest track I bought was 12' diameter. Use the largest your final plan can tolerate. I have moved off my original plan and now have about 400' of track with tunnels, etc, 9 switches. 
Don't worry about choice of power at this point. Just operate with your DC set. I did that for a year then got interested in DCC. I found that my stainless got really dirty after the BAchman wnet around a few times and I had to clean all the time. DCC people say the higher voltage of DCC means less dirt. Ultimately, I think the pot metal cast drivers (which are the pickups) on the BAchman caused the dirt....eletrolysis or something like it. I quit using the BAchman, bought an LGB Mogul and have never had any further problem. I now have 3 LGB's and love them all. I've been a model rr'r for about 65 years: O, HO, N, NN3 and now G gauge. I found DCC to be the most amazing thing that's ever happenedd to RR'ing. But defer your decision until you've had a chance to really look around and you can operate in DC until you decide. FYI I have an NCE 10 Amp set up I got at Tony's Train Exchange and have found it more than adequate to run all three LGB's simultaneously, all with sound. The complication of DCC is dealing with all the decoders and programming. Being 76 years of age (today!), I don't do much prgramming and have never felt the loss. 
To recap my advice: Throw some track out there and run your engine. You'll learn a great deal while "doing" and also come across the questions you really need to ask the club members and this forum. I do not recommend drawing a big plan and trying to do it in parts. Put down something you know you'll tear up in a year and so don't hqve to build with concrete, etc. 
One other piece of advice: not for your "temporary" play with for one year pike, but for your long term: track laid on the ground is **** on the knees; esp trying to connect track with those little Aristo screws or even clamps. Many people have suggested build some, all or a lot of your RR a couple or 3 feet off the ground. That's really worth thinking about!!!!!! And that can be done easily by building 4 x 4 supports stuck in concrete deck piers or by building an elevated garden, which many of the RR's do. Another point: someone said switches are a real bane, requiring heavy repair and maintenance, etc. They're right. I'd suggest keeping your switches to a minimum. 
Welcome to this great world. And happy engineering! 





Wow… thank you for the tips. That is the kind of info that helps keep a newbie out of expensive mistakes. 
I bought some brass track (came in the mail yesterday... Yippee!). I am planning on just throwing it down and running my train around for a bit and seeing what happens. 
My intent is not to take on the whole layout at once but I do need to level the spot I want to ultimately have the layout. So to start I plan on raising an area of about 50’x30’ up about 18” on the one end which will equate to I am guessing 30” on the other end. 
I would like to get all of that raised and level before I put any permanent track down even for a simple loop. But would also like to be able to burry my power leads and whatever else I need for the entire layout so I don’t have to go back and burry stuff and do subgrade work later. Then I will start putting more permanent track down and expanding my empire to eventually fill that area. 

How difficult did you find DCC to incorporate into your layout? Adding the receivers to the locos and doing the programming seems a bit confusing. I am thinking I will just buy DCC ready locos? I know I want to incorporate DCC but I don't want to wait untill the layout is complete. I think like you recommended I will start with a simple layout and see what I like and don't and incorporate DCC at that point. Then move on to the expansion once I have a handle on assembeling track leveling balsasting and so on. 

What part of Colorado are you in? Just currious as I grew up in Englewood ) 

Thank you again for the great advice. 

Todd


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## gdancer (Feb 19, 2008)

Brakeman Todd.... Changing your track from DC to DCC is literally not a problem at all; it's basically just a change of power sources, i.e. replacing two different wires to your track. H/e, you are right: the issue of decoders is sort of a problem, but is getting easier. I have three LGB loco's, a Forney, a Mogul and a Mikado. The first had neither a decoder for operation or sound (there are two decoders, one for each of them!); I had to get decoders and put both in. Fortunately, Bob Grosh of this Forum has a website in which he walks you through with accompanying photos of how to do both. If I got in trouble, I used the forum to reach him and in one case he actually telephoned me to walk me thru a solution. (He is 0only one of many who came to my aid as I found things I didn't understand. Basically membership in this forum solved manyt problems for me!) The Mogul came with a built-in operations decoder, but no sound. I found it easy to put in the sound decoder; many of them are commercially available and instructions simple. Finally, I bought the Mikado last summer when I was in deep trouble with a problem on my Forney and was putting on a train party for about 100 people and Watts Train Shop sold me the Mikado which has both operations and sound decoders already factory installed. 
As for programming. I just don't do it beyond changing the locomotives' numbers as each has to have a separate number. There may be some other stuff, but I leave that to others. I built my RR to be operated by my young grandchildren and don't need bells and whistles otther than what comes automatically with the decoders. 
I'd have the following advice if you think you might go DCC (which I recommend): 1) Don't do anything right away; operate your simple DC layout while you get really immersed in the hobby, reading Garden Ry mag, reading a lot on this forum. 2) Don't buy any loco equipment that's not at least "DCC Ready" or, even better, wait until you're certain what you want to do and then buy a DCC loco with both sound and operations decoders already installed. 3) Remember that there are many sources that will install decoders, both operation and sound, for you and really don't charge much for the job. Both Watts Train Shop and St. Aubin have added decoders for me and have given good support. Same with Tony's for the power system. H?e, I'm certain that other national sources could do as well. 4) When you wire even your starting layout, use at least 12 to 14 gauge wire attached about every 35' as DCC requires a little better conductivity than DC, at least on my stainless. (I think brass doesn't have as much resistance.) This will make it easier. 5) When (or if)you do purchase a DCC system, get it from someone who will take the time to learn how large the size of your layout, the number of expected loco's, etc to properly size your system. And get a system large enought to operate more than you think you'll need. I love my 10 amp NCE system and wouldn't get anything less, even to start with. Even with 400' of track I dont have any supplemental "boosters" but then I also do not have more than one "block", i.e. I operate as a single block, even with 3 locos. 
BTW, there is a small "starter" pamphlet published by Kalmbach that is a beginner's guiide to DCC. Worth getting. 
While you're in the process of planning and building your raised garden, remember to keep your grades at 2% or below (i.e. about 1/4 inch to the foot or less.) You'll be a lot happier with operation. 
We're about 200 miles southwest of Evergreen. I have a summer home in Lake City, 58 miles south of Gunnison; between Gunnison and Creede. Live fall-winter-spring in Dallas, come to L.C. in May-June, stay 'til late Sept. Do all my RR'ing in L.C., tho I have installed decoders, etc during winter when home in Dallas. 
BEst of luck! Have fun!!!!! Dick


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a link to Ray's site that's totally devoted to the MTH DCS Control System. I use DCS and it's much easier than DCC which I feel isn't quit ready for prime time in Large Scale.. 

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Hi everyone, 

My name is Steve and this is my first post on this forum. I'm really in the same boat as Todd and I have to admit this thread (and forum overall) has been a big help. I don't want to hijack this thread as I'm sure I'll make my own for the millions of questions I have but I did want to ask two quick questions. 

First off, I'm only 24 living in Virginia so am I "too young" to get into large scale trains? No offense meant to anyone but it seems like many in this hobby are older than I /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif Furthermore, I have not noticed many central VA large scale modelers. 

Second, a more technical question, I saw a few videos on DCC and noticed they run wire around the length of the track and attach wires to the track every so often. Is this how DCC operates or do you only have to connect to the track at one point? 

Thanks everyone and thank you Todd for starting this thread.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Steeeeve, don't worry with luck you will get over being so young, far too quickly as it turns out. Welcome to Large Scale. Uinsg feeders at several locations on your layout bypasses a real problem and that is maintaining electrical continuity through track joiners. With perfect track you only need to connect at one point unless you have so much track that you get voltage drop across it (hundreds of feet,) The multiple feeders allow your track "joints" to hold the track together without having to maintain high quality electrical contact. Those joints secumb to corrosion, distortion and all sorts of problems that make them less than perfect electrical connections. The only other way to avoid this is with battery power and that is a whole 'nother thread (I run battery.)


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks for the help CCSII....should I make another thread for all the other questions I have and perhaps a formal introduction of myself? I'm very new to this forum. I've been interested in large scale trains for awhile but didn't know it was this big on the internet. All I have is a 19yr old Playmobil set... which works great by the way.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Rayman has over 700' of Aristo SS track laid outdoors for 4 years now with no electrical problems..infact he's never had to even clean the track.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 

Infact track power is the only way to go if your going to run some serious trains say 6 locomotives & 100 freight cars for 8 hours at a time unless you have around 24 battery packs..


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

That's great, fortunately I don't need six trains for eight hours and so I love them batteries.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Hey Steeeeve, 
Welcome! No need to worry about hijacking anything on here" border=0> the more questions you ask the more help you will get and like you being a newbie to the hobby I still have lots and lots to learn so you may ask something I have not thought of. 
If you want some great info and enjoy looking at how others have done theirs, go look at Raymond’s sight (www.rayman4449.dynip.com) man does he have it going on... You can learn a GREAT DEAL on his sight and if your lucky he may offer you a few pointers. He is really nice and has a great layout! 
Of course that tends to go for most everyone on here... the are all more then willing to help and offer advice or opinions. 
If you want my 2cents worth... 
You can never be to young to get into trains of any kind" border=0> So jump in with both feet. 
I would say that being younger then some your potential to move is much higher so you may want to look a bit further down the road in your railroad planning. If you own your home and plan on staying there for a number of years your in great shape. If however your renting or will possibly moving in the near future just keep your railroad in a manner that will allow you to take your investments with you. Bottom line this is not a cheap hobby. Rather then invest in a lot of landscaping you may have to leave behind, I might consider investing more in track and equipment that you can take with you. 
After a great deal of research and questions, I decided on brass 332 track and using "track power" to get started. Brass is cheaper then SS, conducts well, and is more common. * Just a note St. Aubins (their ad is on the top of the page)was having a pretty good sale on track. Under $4 a foot which is pretty good and they were really helpful. I also learned that flex track is much more useful then ready made curves. You can bend it into the shape of any curve and you have less connections. From what I understand anything over 5 foot costs more to ship so I went with 3 foot sections. But if it came down to ready made curves or no track I’d be all over the curves in a box. 
I too am interested in DCC, but have learned there are several other options out there so I am not sold 100%. I need to get with Raymond about DSC. He loves it and said he would be happy to answer questions. With the hurricane here in H-Town we have had our hands full. But I will soon/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0> 
I do know that DCC is expensive and from what I can tell while not (overly) difficult it can be more complex if you intend to use all the features available. I also know that with DCC each item you want to control will need it's own decoder. 
As for powering the DCC part, that is no more difficult then attaching the wires to power the track. In a nut shell if you set up a large oval and didn't have any problems running your trains around it, your DCC signal should be fine. On the other hand if you notice spots where it slows down or quits all together, your DCC may give you problems in those areas as well. 
From what I have gleaned... the more track power connections you have the better your continuity may be, but it may be a waste of time and wire if your layout doesn't have any issues to start with. So that is call you would have to make. I myself am planning on a large layout so I am going to run power to several areas. As I grow my railroad, if I need more power, it will be there. If not I am only out the cost of the wire. 
Enough rambling. 
Keep us (me) posted on how its going for you. And remember these guys truly are a great resource. 
Get some track on the ground and run some trains! 
Todd


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks Todd! I've learned a lot just from these forums and reading individuals sites. The more I read and then reread the more I understand but I still have so many questions...especially about DCC. A poster here that goes by Bobgrosh has several posts about DCC but sometimes I get confused...for example...Is detection a good idea with DCC when running outside? Can you still get automation without detection? Those are just some example of millions of questions I have on DCC alone. 

I feel you are right about starting out with equipment and what not. I actually have a small little train set (good ol' 1980's Playmobil) which has been running strong for over 19yrs. I own my townhouse and have room to play with trains (including a nice size garage). I can't get the 200ft some folks have but I feel I might be able to get the hang of the electronics before I jump in and make the garden. My fiancee really wants to garden and I want to run the trains in the garden so it seems like a good match for the mid-range future ha. 

As for DCS and Flex track...I don't know much about it! It it hard to learn it all at once. What is the difference in DCC and DCS? 

Finally, I think I need to find some folks in Richmond, VA that run trains outside. Everyone recommends this but there are no Richmond clubs! There is one poster here from Silver Spring Maryland and I'd like to visit the layout since my financee lives in Silver Spring (right next to a main railroad line I might add). That seems to be the only hope I got right now! 

Thanks for the welcome and I look forward to reading more and hopefully starting up soon.


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## Idraw4u (Aug 19, 2008)

Like you I am still more lost then not  
I know Raymond will answer any question I have about DCS. I'll e-mail him and ask him for the basics. If we are lucky someone will probably post the answer on here right away... hint hint  

Flex track is really a great way to go you have to bend it your self but a lot of people do what I guess is called "belly bending". They literally bend the track around their waste. Most have nor problems but I guess there is potential to get a "twist" in a rail that can cause you grief? 
I think I am willing to risk that in trade off for less joints. 

Don't be afraid to start indoors... It is dry and can be well lit. As long as what you start indoors you build with the thought that it may one day go outside, you will be fine. 

I'll be honest... 90% of what I am finding in this hobby is trial and error and learning from mistakes. So long as we investigate the big expenses, track, power, DCC, etc... We can screw up all the small stuff on our own and go totally broke  
Just look at all the people who are posting about “snow”… they all have great ideas and different point of views. 

I will e-mail Raymond and ask him to post a reply for us on DCS. 

Happy railroading. 

Todd


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Steve, 

On the power feeder issue I'll try and cut this down fairly simple. Regardless whether you run brass or Stainless steel track for track power direct to rail clamps are really a must, otherwise you will be asking for headaches down the road. If you run brass track + clamps you should be able to get away with one power connection to the track and should not have to worry about corrosion causing problems down the road, but you will at least at some point have to clean the tops of the rail because of corrsosion. With Stainless steel + SS clamps you wont ever have to clean the rail because of corrosion or worry about corrosion at the connections and as Chuck said I don't ever need to clean my rail before I run. You will need feeder wires to alleviate the voltage drop over track loops longer than say 120 linear feet or more. I have 700ft of SS rail with all SS clamps and feeder wires and haven't ever have to clean or mess with my layout because of electrical conductivity problems. I encourage you to educate yourself fully in this area of track/battery power and do some searches here on the forums as this has been discussed quite a bit. Also search the MLS archives. In most cases I think you will find that most people saying "track power sucks", are those that deployed their layout without direct to rail clamps and also were using brass track. Also, many if not most were into this before Stainless rail was available. If you deploy it correctly, track power works wonderfully and if you go that route some like myself can guide you on what you need to do it right. 

On the DCC vs DCS... that is kind of a big question and I'm not a DCC expert, but I would say mostly it boils down to differences in: 

- user interface with the controls (i.e. user experience) (the only real way to understand this I think is to use them for yourself) 
- installation effort 
- configuration 

DCC: 
- Installation (can be simpler to install as some engines are DCC ready to drop a board in although I don't know what level of full control you have on things like on/off lights. You should have full control) 
- Sound/Control: DCC boards are generally control only, sound requires a separate card. You can buy sound cards with integrated DCC control boards. 
- Controllers (I think most are wired, a couple are wireless) 
- Power supplies: specialized AC power supplies for DCC only (DCC uses a modified AC sine wave to both provide power and send control signals) 
- Speed control: Utilizes a back-emf to sense motor speed. 
- Cost: (Control boards) - ~$60 for a control board. (made by multiple mfgs I believe) 
- Cost/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gifSound) â€" requires aftermarket (sierra sound adds ~$150, Phoenix sound adds ~$150-$250) So $210 to $310 for the boards plus installation extra if you need it done. There are some other sound boards out there such as QSI that seems to be fairly popular that is a bit cheaper. 
-Cost/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gifEquipment) - DCC appears to be more expensive in cost of power supplies, controllers, etc (made by multiple mfgs.) 

DCS: 
- Installation: can be more involved because of the need of a flywheel for the optical reader for speed control. (allows independent control on and off of all lights, smoke, sound, etc.) Not all engines come equipped from the factory with a flywheel and if not it would have to be added. This can overall complicate installs. 
- Speed control: I have heard speed control with DCS is more precise because it uses an active optical reader and makes very fast adjustments to add and remove power to the motors to keep an engine going. Chuck can speak to this since he spent time in DCC in Largescale before going with DCS. 
- Sound/Control: Is one integrated board. Sound in my opinion is the best in the G scale market. (Made and sold by MTH.) 
- Cost: (Sound/Control) $180 for the sound and control board. (installation extra if you need it) 
- Cost: (Equipment) - $241 for TIU and wireless remote â€" Can use standard DC or AC power supplies. (I suggest Bridgewerks throttle types) DCS adds a digital frequency signal to the standard DC or AC power going to the track to control the engines. 
- User interface: I canâ€™t speak to DCC on this one but DCS is very intuitive and has many built in items that provide info such as check track signal strength, track voltage check as it goes around, Scale miles traveled during the current run plus lifetime hour and scale mile distance run for each engine(stored in each engine), etc. 

Please understand there is A LOT of detail I didnâ€™t go into but I tried to highlight some of what may be the key aspects. Some others may have additional info and Iâ€™m sure Iâ€™ve left somethings out here. And sorry too, I havenâ€™t had time to read everything thatâ€™s been posted prior to thisâ€¦. 

Chuck can you add anything here? (since youâ€™re really the only person here with hands on experience with both systems.) 

The best thing I can suggest is do some reading into DCC and DCS via searches here on MLS and elsewhere. (sounds like you may have a good resource for DCC info here from a prior post) There are also some DCC manuals online, take a look. I can obviously help with the in-depth stuff on the DCS side. My website has a DCS overview video set that gives a pretty complete demo of the system capabilities. It also has a ton of videos of DCS engines in operation. As far as how I got started in DCS, one of my very first engines was an MTH Challenger. To get it running under digital control, I just bought the $241 TIU and wireless remote and connected it to my existing generic DC power supply and within very short order knew this was the control system I wanted, I didnâ€™t need to see anything else. 

I agree, start with what you have with a simple track powered engine and enjoy that first and go from there. Take your time and full educate yourself, then make the leap to the next level. I personally would say, just get whatever engine you want, donâ€™t worry about whether itâ€™s DCC ready or notâ€¦ if you donâ€™t go with DCC then it wonâ€™t matter. But I agree itâ€™s a very good point and good thing to keep in mind if you are seriously considering it. I personally buy the models I want then decide how to get the sound and control system in, but then I do all my own installsâ€¦ So many things to consider! And collectively you will get the information you need from all the contributors here as we all have and know our little piece of the big puzzle. ï�Š 

Thanks a bunch Todd by the way. 

What was the question on the flex track? 


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Crud, ignore the /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif smilies... Was trying to type a : and ( . /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif 

Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

DCC: 
1. - Installation (can be simpler to install as some engines are DCC ready to drop a board in although I don't know what level of full control you have on things like on/off lights. You should have full control) 
2. - Sound/Control: DCC boards are generally control only, sound requires a separate card. You can buy sound cards with integrated DCC control boards. 
3. - Controllers (I think most are wired, a couple are wireless) 
4. - Power supplies: specialized AC power supplies for DCC only (DCC uses a modified AC sine wave to both provide power and send control signals) 
5. - Speed control: Utilizes a back-emf to sense motor speed. 
6. - Cost: (Control boards) - ~$60 for a control board. (made by multiple mfgs I believe) 
7. - CostSound) â€" requires aftermarket (sierra sound adds ~$150, Phoenix sound adds ~$150-$250) So $210 to $310 for the boards plus installation extra if you need it done. There are some other sound boards out there such as QSI that seems to be fairly popular that is a bit cheaper. 
8. -CostEquipment) - DCC appears to be more expensive in cost of power supplies, controllers, etc (made by multiple mfgs.) 

1. You can have more function outputs in DCC than DCS, and there are more built in lighting functions. 

2. DCC boards are generally (now) sound and motor... only the older stuff is motor or sound only... 

3. Almost all DCC mfgs offer wireless control. 

4. Power supplies can typically be anything, from unregulated simple AC transformer to regulated DC... any voltage from about 16 volts on up to 27 or so. 

5. Not all units use back-emf, thanks to suit from MTH... 

6. decoders cost from $20 on up depending on what you want in them and how many amps and if motor or sound or both. (or if for switch machines) 

7. QSI motor and sound decoder is $137 - both motor and sound (and lights) 

8. DCC power supply costs no more than any other supply.. better supply costs more in any scale and system. 

The extra cost is the command station and booster if you get to larger modular systems... of course then you can have 31 cabs and 31 wireless base stations and cover over an acre of space and 10,000 different loco numbers and virtually unlimited power districts of up to 25 amps each... ( each lighted passenger car can be 1.5 amps, so there are reasons).... 

So, just a little update on the DCC side... there are some differences and advantages...  

Regards, Greg


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks for the help and hopefully this information will help Todd as well. 

I am sure that DCC is the way to go for me (note this is long term). Being of the computer generation, I'm into programming and automation. I'd like it have it so a computer program and basically run various scenarios on the tracks with many trains without crashing or causing any major issues. For example Train 1 would stop if Train 2 was occupying another track or Train 1 would pull off to a station because it is a passenger train. Furthermore, I like the idea of automating when lights turn on or off and when sounds play. For example when a train arrives at a station the lights in the passenger cars come on and then perhaps dim or turn off when the train pulls out. Seems like transponding is also something I will need for this. 

Also, I mainly like passenger trains and specifically Amtrak trains since I like riding the always late Amtrak trains to visit relatives. I noticed that Aristocraft has an Amtrak E8/E9 loco coming out but it seems like it has been coming out for the past 10 months! Does anyone know if this will happen and if Aristocraft has matching passenger cars available? 

Thanks again everyone.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, Your #5 statement is false...QSI had a lawsuit filed against MTH and it all had to to with Sanda Kan owing MTH something like $28 million.... 

Here's the whole story since you like referring to Tony's MTH remark in the QSI manuals... 

Columbia, Maryland, August 12, 2008 --- The federal court case between M.T.H. Electric Trains and MKT (formerly Korea Brass) has been resolved via settlement between the two firms. Terms of the settlement include payment by MKT to M.T.H. in the form of cash, HO tooling from the Broadway Limited product line and Lionel HO product line, a sub-license from Precision Craft Models for the DCC patent held by Real Rail Effects and dismissal of the MKT/Korea Brass financed QSI Patent Infringement case against M.T.H. 

A federal trial in U.S. District Court (Southern District Michigan) was concluded on June 7, 2004 with a verdict in favor of the plaintiff, M.T.H. Korea Brass and its co-defendant, Yoo Chan Yang were found liable on M.T.H.'s claims of misappropriation of M.T.H.'s trade secrets. The jury also found that the defendants' actions were willful and malicious. The jury awarded M.T.H. damages in the amount of $27,940,925.00. 

Two weeks after the 2004 jury decision in Michigan, Korea Brass transferred all of its assets and purchase orders to a new Korean entity named MKT. In May of 2006, M.T.H. filed a lawsuit in the same Michigan U.S. District Court that heard the original suit to contest the fraudulent transfer of assets undertaken by Korea Brass to avoid that court's judgment. In April 2008, a final judgment against MKT was issued finding that MKT and Korea Brass were one and the same and that MKT was liable for the original judgment against Korea Brass. An injunction was subsequently issued requiring that all payments due to MKT from its U.S. customers were to be paid to M.T.H. until the original judgment was satisfied. 

The MKT settlement negotiations were complicated and delayed due to MKT's current financial status, their previous ownership status of U.S. model railroad importer Broadway Limited, their relationship with Precision Craft Models and that firm's relationship with DCC patent holder Real Rails Effects, and their joint venture agreement with QSI to fund a merit less patent infringement lawsuit against M.T.H. Electric Trains in an effort to pressure M.T.H. to settle the original Michigan trade secrets lawsuit. Precision Craft Models assisted Real Rail Effects patent infringement lawsuits in Florida against QSI, Atlas O LLC, and American Hobby Distributors. These suits alleged violations of Real Rail Effects' patent for combining DCC with a Sound Decoder and M.T.H. felt it needed a license with Real Rail Effects to prevent a presumable forthcoming lawsuit between Real Rail Effects and M.T.H. 

M.T.H. Electric Trains president Mike Wolf said; "It was so frustrating to negotiate the settlement due to all the moving parts." Toward the end of negotiations, MKT insisted that the QSI suit dismissal not be included but Wolf wanted it resolved along with the Real Rail Effects patent infringement suit between QSI, Atlas O LLC, and American Hobby Distributors. According to Wolf, "I wanted to wrap up all of this litigation in one big settlement even though some elements of the resolution would have benefited my competitors, so I insisted that the QSI suit be resolved as well as the Real Rail Effects suits against the other named parties. This was one of the reasons this thing took so long, but in the end it was worth the wait." 

In the end M.T.H. secured cash payments of $950,000.00 and has taken ownership of the tooling for the following Broadway Limited HO models: Union Pacific die-cast Big Boy steam engine, Pennsylvania die-cast GG-1 electric, Alco PA diesel, Alco FA diesel, EMD F3 diesel and EMD F7 diesel. Also included were the two sets of Lionel HO tooling for their Union Pacific die-cast Challenger and their Union Pacific die-cast Veranda Turbine. MKT also agreed to provide to M.T.H., on behalf of Real Rail Effects and Precision Craft Models, a non-royalty, perpetual license for the right to produce and market model train products equipped with a DCC soundboard receiver. MKT also agreed to obtain a dismissal of the QSI lawsuit against M.T.H. for alleged patent infringements, as was MKT's right to do so per its joint venture agreement with QSI. 

M.T.H. Electric Trains, with the trade secrets case now completely behind it, will continue to forge ahead with its expansion plans in the HO, One-Gauge and O Gauge markets. The HO tooling acquired in the MKT settlement will require significant reworking in order to bring the models up to M.T.H.'s HO standards and house M.T.H.'s Proto-Sound 3.0 sound and train control modules. Once the upgrades have been completed, the models will be incorporated into M.T.H.'s ever-growing product lines that continue to reflect the company's commitment to producing the best model railroading products available today. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg wrote quote; 

"The extra cost is the command station and booster if you get to larger modular systems... of course then you can have 31 cabs and 31 wireless base stations and cover over an acre of space and 10,000 different loco numbers and virtually unlimited power districts of up to 25 amps each... ( each lighted passenger car can be 1.5 amps, so there are reasons)...." 

Greg, who makes 25 amp DCC boosters?? Biggest I ever seen was 10 amp NCE boosters and let us not forget that according to the NMRA less than 20 volts can be on the track. 

Here's your quote from the Public Forum under the topic Maximum Speed For Your Loco page 3 I believe...Greg wrote quote.. 

"I don't know the answer, but I wish that either large scale locos were built to lower voltages, or the NMRA would allow higher DCC voltages. 

It's a mess.... 

All I can say is that making locos be able to achieve prototype tops speeds at 19 volts or so would allow the DCC guys to hit top speeds when necessary, and maybe the loss in top speed would be tolerable to the 14.4 volt crowd." 

Hmm...31 NCE 10 Amp Radio Pro sets would cost about $21,700.00 without any power suppliies and that would power 31 blocks. 

MTH could power the same 31 blocks with 16 DCS sets at a cost of only $4,000.00 without any power supplies..infact each TIU can power 2 blocks using DC power so in reality with MTH it would be 32 blocks but wait...if you were to power the MTH DCS System with AC transformers then it would only take 8 DCS sets for a price of $2,000.00 

And don't forget that MTH is the KING of in sync with driver revolution puffing smoke and downloadable soundfiles (around 1,500) available... 

And MTH has the exclusive operating Proto-Couplers so you can fire by remote the locomotive couplers anywhere on the layout...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, I was not referring to that suit, but the patent by MTH on BEMF, and the reason most decoder manufacturers, at least in the US, cannot "say" BEMF control of the motor speed. 

I may be wrong, but I read the MTH patent, and it's really broad. But again I could be mistaken. This is what I was referring to. Sorry if I am inaccurate. 

I think Digitrax has a 12 amp booster. 15 and 25 amp ones seem to come from Germany. I can look them up, but availablity here in the us is difficult. 

Powering the blocks does not need more than one command station, just more boosters, you seem to have totalled up complete sets so you would have 31 extra command stations... 

Make the comparision with 1 NCE command station and the rest NCE boosters and power supplies. 

I pay 85 bucks for my 11 amp regulated power supplies, so maybe your numbers could use some readjustment. I think the systems you quoted for DCS are not regulated supplies, but a true apples to apples comparision would be interesting. 

I think DCS is nice, but you have to buy their stuff, no mix and match, so there are limitations. NCE is also one of the more expensive systems, so if you want to be in a competition for the lowest cost per $ for power, I would suggest other manufacturers. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Steve, 

If you ever get that setup I would like to see it operate. (please post some videos) I donâ€™t think there are too many that have gone to that level of automation in G scale and it would be slick to see it all work. ( I have heard of it before in other scales) On the DCS side, I do know someone was developing a PC control system for DCS but to date it has not gone public and donâ€™t know that it ever will. As far as comparable features, it does have a record feature (through the remote) where you can actually record an entire operating session, where it records all actions, speed changes, whistle blows, can stop, play the passenger station sounds (a.k.a. PFA â€" Passenger/Freight Announcements â€" video sample of PFA on my site) that are included in the engine sound file load etc. Itâ€™s pretty cool, I just donâ€™t use it. Stumpy (Cliff) has played more with that feature far more than I have. 

************************ 

I will try and drive some more discussion as some of this does not correlate to what Iâ€™ve been told about DCC before: 

- Based on the prior discussions I've read and have been told, DCC utilizes a modified AC power signal to provide both power and commands to the engines. If you can use a standard Bridgewerks DC power supply to run the engine under full DCC control how does it control the engine if itâ€™s looking for a modified signal? Was the original answer I was provided the DCC is modified AC incorrect? Does the command station convert the DC into AC? I understand that some DCC mfgs will let you control a single DC engine under the AC environment by â€œzero stretching address oneâ€�. 


I will add some more details to help in the comparisons... I know some of this may be duplication: 


On functions and light circuits: 


- DCS Light circuits and control: (included as part of the $180 upgrade kit â€" each below are dedicated circuits and all lights 
noted are provided with the kit and assembled, you just plug them in) (protocouplers are also 
included but as of now they are O gauge. G gauge can be had separately.) 

LIGHTS: 
- Front marker lights (2 -Green LEDs) 
- Rear Marker lights (2 -Red LEDs) 
- Headlight (incandescent) 
- Reverse light (incandescent) 
- Cab lights (incandescent) 
- Number board / Ditch lights (incandescent) (can be used for either) 
- Blinking yellow LED (used for overhead beacon light like was used on some diesels) 
- Front Mars light (incandescent) as used on Southern Pacific GS-4s and some diesels) 
- Rear Mars light (incandescent) Not sure where this would have ever been used 
- The Mars lights circuits can be used for firebox light flickering with some sound files 

OTHER: 
- Smoke unit heat elements wire pair 
- Smoke unit fan motor wire pair 
- wires for volume control to control sound volume when under straight analog power (non remote control) 
- wires for smoke unit on/off when under straight analog power (non remote control) 
- Wire pair for front protocoupler to open the automated coupler 
- Wire pair for rear protocoupler to open the automated coupler 
- and of course power pickup, motor leads and speaker pair 
- O gauge protocouplers are include (you really need G gauge ones) 
- 2" high quality speaker included but you should really go with 3" if you can fit it. 

Notes: 

- In all my installs Iâ€™ve found DCS always has more lights than I can use. 
- Also, no programming is required to get these to function, they are already setup and activated as part of the 
sound file you download. The only real setup required for a new engine is selecting the right tach strip for the 
flywheel. Load the file to the board and go. 




- DCC Light circuits and control: (I donâ€™t know. Need someone to fill in: 1) what lights and LEDs are included with the DCC board 2) how many light circuits does it have ) 




System components: 


- DCS is at its simplest is made up of four main components: (TIU & Wireless remote kit ~$241 + power supply of your choice + Protosound 2 board in each engine) (*AIU is optional*) 

- Wireless remote- (Wireless remote separately is about $120) http://www.ridgeroadstation.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=200550-1001!2005 (both remote and TIU) 
- TIU (Track Interface Unit) - that the wireless remote communicates with and goes between power supply and track and adds 
back and forth communication between TIU and engines and remote. (TIU separately is about $141) (operates up to 24v 
standard DC or AC) 
- TIU power port Amperage limits 
- Normal Mode - 10amps per TIU power port (two that we can use under DC power) (run power through the TIU. 
- Passive Mode â€" Unlimited amperage for each TIU power port â€" (This is how I run mine and run 700ft off one 
channel output) 

- Standard DC (or AC) power supply: (I recommend high quality DC Bridgewerks supplies: $153= 3 amp, $247= 5 amp, $284= 10amp, 
$315= 15amp, $384=20amp, $524=25amp) http://www.ridgeroadstation.com/istar.asp?a=3&manufacturer=873&dept=trains&class=PWRPCK&subclass= - 20amp not listed at RRstation. 

- AIU (Accessory Interface Unit) ~$80 : http://www.ridgeroadstation.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=200550-1004!2005 - 
allows to control switches and lights on layout via the remote. Can be daisy chained. 
- DCS Protosound 2 board â€" http://www.protosound2.com/ (click ps2 upgrades) - one required for each engine provides sound 
and control. ($180, includes all lights needed, 2â€� speaker, o gauge protocouplers) 
- Note: a â€œSlave boardâ€� can be purchased to power additional engines for motor only control off a master DCS protosound 2 
board in a lead engine. (~$100 est) 




- DCC system: (with comparable wireless remote and multi-line LCD display) 

- Wireless remote with command station - NCE 10 Amp Power-Pro 10R (includes remote, wireless add on and command station rated at 10amps) I understand this runs ~$700? (please confirm) Power supply is also needed as I understand it. http://www.ncedcc.com 
- Another comparable remote / system seems to be the Zimo with a backklit mulitline display http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24_55_74&products_id=352 (297 british pounds or ~$445) Canâ€™t quickly find pricing on this state-side - this was the price on the remote by itself. 



(*Would welcome additional input here on other systems with comparable remotes and pricing. This may have been discussed in detail here already on the different system components and cost. Maybe a link to that thread would work just as good for reference.*) 


- Where are some of the best places to shop for DCC equipment, controllers, etc? Are there any one-stop shops that sell all the systems and all the equipment? This would help folks wanting to look further into it. 




Other system features: 

DCS: 

- Remote and TIU are software upgradable. 
- This means new features and additions to the controls and menus can be added via software loads from your PC just as the recent addition of release 4.02a. The new release allowed the new quillable whistle so you can work the whistle sound with the thumbwheel in loudness to just like the real thing. Also made a number of other enhancements like remote engine list backup / restore and cloning. 

- Check track voltage: Engine can report live voltage readings anywhere on the track. (good for troubleshooting) 
- Track signal meter: to help test DCS track signal levels anywhere on the track. 
- Lifetime odometer(in scale miles) and hour + min used clock (not resettable) 
- Trip odometer and hour+min used clock (resets each time you restart your engine) 
- Maintenance odometer: Reminds you after so many Scale miles itâ€™s time to service and lubricate a particular engine. 
- Passenger / Freight announcements: playback passenger station or freight operation discussions and sound effects on command 
- When PS3 is released in G scale engines will be able to be controlled by DCC. Not sure if the remote and TIU will be 
able to control other DCC engines (no ETA on when this will be out) 
- No programming required to get sounds, speed calibration, etc to get working. (speed match does require correct 
tach strip for flywheel) 
- Protocast feature allows you to plug in a CD player to your TIU and play CD or radio music through your engineâ€™s speaker. 
- Optical reader for speed control also used to trigger timed smoke puffs with the audio chuffs for steam locomotives so 
they are both in sync. 
- You can change sound files in the PS2 board with your computer with one of the hundreds of files available on their 
website. 
(using different files may require you to change the tach strip to maintain proper speed calibration.) 
- Independently adjust sound volumes of: Bell, Whistle, Engine sounds(chuff/rev), People voices in 10% increments from 0 to 
100% 
- Adjust global sound volume with #2 and #5 buttons on remote. 
- Turn all sounds on and off with one button 
- Quillable whistle (*coming with future engines and sound files*) allows you to simulate an engineer's differing 
pressure on the whistle pull cord for seamless whistle pitches 
- Operating session recording and playback 
- Remote has built in microphone so you can speak your voice through the train speaker 
- Remote has emergency stop button (functions when TIU run in normal mode, not in unlimited amperage mode) to cut all power 
to the track. 
- Ease of configuration, you load the sound file, select the proper tach strip for the flywheel and go. Nothing else to 
program or to set. 
- Cannot control all trains via a PC. 
- You cannot make your own custom engine sound files 
- You can record your own custom individual sounds and sound bites and play them back on command 


Photo of remote: http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/DCS_Remote_1024_0025.JPG 


****************** 

The end game is if you are new and are researching digital control and sound, you should take a serious look at DCS for your solution. The ease of use, intuitiveness of the remote controls and nice multi line LCD display makes for a great overall user experience. Add in the lower cost of the equipment (compared to comparable DCC equipment- remote, TIU/command station), it also provides good bang for the buck. (By comparable I mean in the quality of the sound, sophistication of the remote and features) As someone that's used DCS in a number of applications, there aren't many limitations that I have run into but two disadvantages that come to mind are: 

- If you only want motor only control in your engines because of cost, you still have to purchase a full protosound 2 board, so 
that would be a little more expensive compared to DCC. ($180 compared to maybe $60) 
- Flywheel needed in each engine for DCS to function 


If you are looking for pricing on MTH equipment, it can be purchased at most of the major online G scale train storesâ€¦ Ridgeroadstation, St Aubins, etc 

I know there is much more to know on the details of what DCC offers, I'm just not fully read up on it all. 

Ok, Iâ€™m done, Iâ€™ve spent way too much time typing this up as it is. 


Raymond


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
Andy Edleman V.P. of MTH Electric Trains has posted on various forums over the years that MTH doesn't hold a patent on BEMF and is not suing any DCC manufacturer over BEMF. It's sort of a urban legend that was started back when MTH sued Lionel over stolen drawings, technology, etc. 

Why would MTH patent BEMF when it isn't even used in DCS?? 

That BEMF rumor surfaced about time that MTH introduced DCS & Proto-Sound 2. 

Up til then MTH was using Proto-Sound 1 by QSI...When PS2 was introduced QSI was left out. I personally think that BEMF rumor was started by Pat Quinn & Fred Severson because they had $$$ tied up in r&d for a new top board for the PS1 electronics that would let Lionel TMCC control PS1 locos. 
When PS2 came out MTH dropped QSI like a hot potato with no MTH factory support for QSI PS1 products...must be some bad feelings indeed between QSI & MTH to this very day. 

QSI hitched it's wagon to Broadway Limied/Precision Craft owned by Bob Grubba. Bob Grubba is the guy that was at Lionel & spearheaded the whole fiasco that lead to the courts finding Lionel guilty and owing MTH 48 million AND put Lionel into bankruptcy. 

Bob Grubba was let go at Lionel. 

Then Mr. Grubba went to work for K-Line and put them out of business with lawsuits from Lionel...Lionel ended up absorbing most of K-Line. 

As mentioned Bob Grubba owns Broadway Limited and has been undercutting his own dealer network with pricing...nice fellow! 

Now how would you like to be QSI and hitched up with Bob Grubba esp. since MTH had a injunction placed on all monies in this country going to Sanda Kan/Korea Brass the manufactuer of Aristo/ USA/ Lionel/ Broadway Limited etc. until MTH collected it's 28 million owed by Sand Kan?? 

Since that injuction was lifted Aristo delivered it's Consolidation & USA it's Docksider..Ironic hey?? 

Maybe Grubba now can deliver his long awaited brass S.P. Cab Forward in 1/29??


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Raymond, 

I think DCC has to be the way I go for transponding. It seems more apparent that this is required for the kind of automation I am looking for. Seems Digitrax is working on some speed controls too which would help. The basic goal is for you to know where the train is at all times on the track and what train that is. Once you can accomplish this you can see where any train is at anytime...the rest is just a few programming tricks to make the train do what you want it to do. 

I think the majority of the time will just be getting the money to buy this stuff  Too bad I can't get a sponsor like the Science Museum of Virginia to pay for some stuff and then they can display it (the museum used to be a train station is now a historical site).


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Steve, 

No sweat. I know you already made your decision to go with DCC, my intention was to post more detailed info for others who may be following the thread or may read it in a search in the future. This was really one of the first times a real comparison was requested and in order to make a decision, most will want to know as much as they can about each system. 


Raymond


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## Steeeeve (Sep 10, 2008)

Definitely a smart move! 

Seems like the more information written in a few different ways actually helps! I know the first time I read about DCC it was way over my head...but only a few short weeks of intense reading and I feel I know some of the advanced functions (what they are...perhaps not how to do them haha). 

I bought a townhouse (before I knew I could have a train outside!) so it looks like I will have to confine myself to a 12ft dia loop in my garage for awhile. On the plus side it means I will spend all my time getting some programming done and that could benefit everyone (since JMRI is opensource).


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Chuck, based on your earlier post, I went back and did some more reading. I was unaware of the larger lawsuit and counters, etc. Wow what a mess. 

What I thought was an actual suit on the BEMF issue was described on another forum as "threatened lawsuit". I finally found someone on the QSI side giving this information. 

Well it's good news that a single manufacturer does not "own" BEMF. 

I bow to your superior understanding of the much larger picture. All I can say is that it appears that all the suits, real and imagined, seem to be settled. 

Back to railroading! 

Regards, Greg


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