# Any Ideas?? Indoor layout using modules



## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm thinking of making a basement layout with modules and some custom transition sections to complete a layout in a part of my basement. 

Overall dimensions are 29'- 6" x 14'-9" less minor variations for oil tank, stairs, path to laundry and a column. 


I posted a sketch/floor plan for any comments, criticisms, reactions or suggestions on this forum 
at 
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436...ff64_b.jpg[/b]

I'm wide open for ideas and comments since I just started thinking about this. 


Thanks.

Web


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436...b.jpg[


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi T
Thanks T. Your link was not complete so it wouldn't load. Please repost.
Web


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

So Web, after looking at your sketch, a few questions. 
1.You want strictly a point-to-point operation with no sidings along the way, correct? 
2. What are "transition sections"? 
3. What is the planned height off the floor? (height can affect what obstacles you must design around).I like that you have chosen to keep the shelf width limited to 30" - that enables you to reach the back of the shelf.
4. What kind of railroad are you planning to model? Passenger or freight or both? What sizes of locos and rolling stock? The restricted space in which you are working will not accommodate American mainline equipment very well. That space would be much better suited to narrow gauge US or European type operations and equipment.

Another alternative for a basement point to point plan is a trolley layout. They look realistic running on sharp curves plus that type of layout enables you to build/install a proportionately large quantity of buildings and urban scenery.

Suggestion - You will get more substantive comments if you provide a complete thought dump here so we all understand what you are envisioning and what you want the railroad to look like and how you want it to function when completed.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

picture not available....


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Cut and paste the URL he provided in the first post into your browser address bar at the top. It works.


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Web - please re-check your dimensions as shown on the sketch. The stairs only occupy less than 6 grid lines (between 5 and 6 ft) yet you show the dimension as 7'=1/2". Which is it? That affects the gap between the right-hand most layout end module (next to the laundry entrance) and the corner of the stair. You currently have that gap diagonally dimensioned at 3'-6".


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Al McEvoy on 27 Sep 2009 09:16 AM 
Web - please re-check your dimensions as shown on the sketch. The stairs only occupy less than 6 grid lines (between 5 and 6 ft) yet you show the dimension as 7'=1/2". Which is it? That affects the gap between the right-hand most layout end module (next to the laundry entrance) and the corner of the stair. You currently have that gap diagonally dimensioned at 3'-6".

Also the oil tank dimensions on the sketch do not appear to match the text dimensions you wrote on the sketch. The width appears to be 1'-9" but you wrote 2'-6". That is critical for the location of the modules just above it on the sketch, and the resulting gap width to the corner of the end module in front of the stairs (you show 3'-0" but if the oil tank is drawn incorrectly and must be widened on the sketch, that will significantly reduce the gap.


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Web, 

I had a few objects to work around creating my empire. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...nRaMRR.JPG 

My bench work is by Sievers, the bench work for the most part is modules 30 in wide by 48 in long covered with 24 in by 48 in 3/8 in pegboard. The pegboard is covered with Woodland Scenics grass mats. I used O scale cork roadbed under my LGB track. The height is a comfortable 50 in. I run European passenger trains and happily use all the yard facilities to switch in/out passenger cars, engines,dining cars and baggage cars. 

The drawing will give you an idea of how a restricted space can be used. The design was to be able to access every part of the layout and also allow for maintenance of those pesky house items. 

Have fun designing, 

Jan


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm.... 

'...to complete a layout...' so we are looking at only *part* of the layout here. Double tracked. Do the 'transition' sections indicate grades? Or do they tie various modules together? Is this supposed to tie in with a elevated layout or a loop around the room behind the stairs? Really not enough info to make much of a determination. 

Apple Yankee...looks like your line got pared down again.


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah T, that it did, but we're scheming (actually it's more like begging) to get more territory. Hoping to move the cabinets, shelving and other stuff by the furnace this winter. Haven't given up on the original plan. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap.../Yptop.bmp 

The above is the ultimate goal, point to point, with section over the oil tank 12 inches higher than island in the middle. 

Jan


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Apple Yankee- 

A 12 inch increase in elevation between the center island and the oil tank? You be talking some pretty steep grades there...something on the order of 3-4%. Also, with that kind of increase in elevation, and the narrowness of your benchwork, some sort of multi-level shelf scheme becomes at least theoretically possible. I do note an absence of close ended sidings at your terminals - does this mean the trains back out? 

Good luck with the beg-er-negotiations.


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi T, 

Construction phase pic's 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...%20005.jpg 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...%20010.jpg 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...%20006.jpg 

All my trains are designed for push-pull operation and consist of an engine, two or three cars with a control car on the end. the pic's above also show some of the house hazards that have to be engineered around. 

I'll be using the length of the wall on the right to get enough rise to reach the oil tank corner. All the track over the tank and in those far corners will be suspended from the ceiling. 

The current track plan access area to the inside yard.


http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...%20009.jpg 

Jan


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Apple Yankee- 

You seem to be further along with your rebuild than I am with mine. (I have a huge pile of stuff to see to before the snow hits - plus I'm putting in more days and longer hours at work). 

It also seems we've both re-used the same pieces of wood so many times that they look like they've been machine gunned with very small caliber bullets.


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi All 
Thanks for the great questions and pics. I am so grateful to have people I can share this with and who "get it". 

I had to be away from a computer for a couple of days to go out of state to attend a funeral and be with family. 

Quick answers - This is the whole empire, at least as far as the basement goes. I'd like to do some type of continuous running such as turnaround loops on the ends, but I can't figure how it will fit in the available space. The continuous running is mostly when I have open house or just want to have trains running without paying a lot of attention. (BTW no room to run behind stairs - that's a stone basement wall I don't want to disturb. I'm not very confident of it in its current condition. I'd rather not have the house collapse.) When I hook up with other modules then it will be whatever I'm willing to transport plus what ever the rest of the module guys bring. That will be another story. Correct, the stairs only indicate the portion going into the basement there's a small landing and a few steps above. Some of the steps are over some of the shelving area. I should fix that on the drawing. Elevations - I'm planning to keep it level throughout and use surrounding terrain and backdrops and building to give the illusion of elevation changes. I will have a few sidings. I'm thinking of having a "mountain" division or parallel higher elevation track in some areas of the layout toward the back of the module similar to NTrak to make things interesting visually. Era is 1830's to 1890's with fairly short passenger and freight consists. Mainline running will probably only happen in the context of big modern guys thundering through when it part of a modular display. Height is a good question. I'll probably have to dig portions of the basement deeper and so the legs will be removable (with one set of "travel" legs and one set of "home legs". 

Keep sending questions and Ideas and pics they're great! 

Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Ooops - I missed answering the transition question. The transitions are sections that don't meet module standards. They are intended to join together modules that DO meet module standards. I'm thinking that they are all at grade 0 inches. Meaning all track work should all be kept flat. As I mentioned in my longer reply, I'm thinking of keeping everything level and using terrain, background, and separate lines at two different elevations ("mountain" division) provide the illusion of height, etc. 

Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Apple Yankee, 
What radius are your corners and loops? Maybe I could squeeze a some loops in after all. (I will happily do a major revision on the sketch plan to be able to do this.) I had been sticking with the overall dimensions of the modular standards (5 ft 3in) as a general guideline for MINIMUM CURVES and loops not to exceed. 

I've read in this forum constant calls for larger radii and smoother curves. What is the safe MINIMUM curves and loops for running 1800's railroad at home? And maybe having some visitors who are running narrow gauge (45mm track gauge) rolling stock? 

Best, 

Web


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

Obviously you've chosen to build a sectional layout for practical reasons so there are things you can't do. But even in that situation I'd be inclined to build a simple 'bridge' over the 3 foot space in your design. That will give you a continuous run so from time to time you can simply watch trains. I think this is important no matter how small the layout.

It doesn't have to be a great structure. Just an unseniced 2x10 with sides so you can set it in place when you want to. When it's removed those dead end approach tracks can be industrial or railway related spurs of some kind. 
Just a thought.

Have fun.


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Web, 

All my Curves are LGB R2, I think the radius is about 30 inches. Currently all my switches are R1 ( 24 in radius), The orignal purchase of track (years ago) was to have a layout to replicate narrow gauge railroading. I had bought several used LGb Moguls, mid western style passenger cars and some freight cars. I picked 1980 to 1900 as my time period. I was going to run short trains and didn't want to use the larger curves (R3 4foot radius and R3 switches). In the middle of all the planning and imagineering I bought a LGB catalog while on a business trip and was fascinated by the Swiss one meter gauge and equipment. The rest is history. 

The prototype:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Ap...xpChur.jpg 

My layout re-construction:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Ap...20blue.jpg

Jan


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Dave

That's what I had there originally (when I first sketched it). I guess great minds run in the same directions. It formed a custom "wye" that I was happy with for operating and other reasons.


I'd like to eliminate duck-unders but maybe I could put in a swing, lift, or draw type bridge or track section as you suggest.


Does anyone have any experience or suggestions for having moving sections that swing, lift, or draw up? Pictures would be very helpful too.

Thanks All,

Web


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

You might want to consider an oval on a sectional center peninsula type arrangement, running down the long axis of the room, with a long narrow 'shelf' section for a yard or some such along the bottom wall. You would probably have to use R2 curves to make this work, though if you were willing to tolarate a bit of a squeeze, you *might* be able to use R3 or even R4 curves at the one end. Your modules on the peninsula would be connected 'end to end' and 'back to back'.


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks T. That's a fresh idea. I was starting to get overly focused on the first arrangement. I'll get out the sketch pad and give it a whirl. 

I also noticed that I was down to 3 straight and 1 curved standard modules once I put in the bridge. The comment from this forum that this was mostly a sectional layout was right on. It's not that having more standard modules is the main goal, but it is certainly the side goal that will probably keep this thing going and growing as I built it 

Thanks again guys for keeping it fun. 

Best, 

Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Any swing, lift, or draw bridges or track sections out there? Any pictures or experiences?
Web


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi T
I liked your suggestions (just wasn't sure how to draw it up). I gave it a stab though. I have a Plan B posted at - 


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3972545391/[/b]

Everyone take a look and let me know what you think and any ideas or suggestions. 


I'm havin' fun,

Web


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## rgolding (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Webber on 01 Oct 2009 07:57 AM 
Any swing, lift, or draw bridges or track sections out there? Any pictures or experiences?
Web 


Within the last coupe of years there was a swing open gate design in Model Railroader that might just fit your requirements. Though time gets away from us, I know this article was within the last couple of years, because of a friend using this concept on his railroad.


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks. I'll try and track that down.
- Web


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Web - Here is a possibility within your space. I worked out a double tracked loop with a fiddle yard and two sidings. Lots of variations possible. This uses a double tracked lift bridge (shown as two singles but either way is possible) to span the walkway between the two sides. I took a few liberties with some dimensions but it seems to fit within your area and still allow walking room (3 ft or greater walkways). I did not try to attain "standard" 4 ft modules when I drew it up but that can be worked out. And yes there are several "transition" modules. 

Al


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Al 

That's great. Thanks for the plan. 
What software did you use? 
I like the long runs, continuous loop, and more operations. You really got me thinking now. 

Thanks, 
Web


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

I use RR-Track software on my old Windows PC (I use a MacBook Pro now but haven't found any layout design software as good as RR-Track for the Mac). This design uses Aristo 5 ft dia in several locations, it also uses Aristo 8 ft dia and 6.5 ft dia curves, plus a few large radius curves on the lower siding.

As long as you stick to short "narrow gauge style" or 19th century style equipment, it will look good and run well on the small layout. it also gives you an opportunity to create interesting structures for the specialized railroad. After I played with this a while I could see lots of potential despite the space limitations. Good Luck and keep us posted.

AL


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Web, 

While browsing this morning found this this http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx 

The pictures show a couple of swing out bridges. 

Jan


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks Jan. 
Great pics. I hadn't seen this thread before. 
The pics make it far easier for RR Chief of Real Estate acquisitions (wife) to see where I want to go with an indoor railroad. Our basement is very rough right now and will need significant work to make it a suitable home for the railroad. 
One of the advantages of going sectional or modular is I can start railroading/modeling before I complete all the basement work. When I do tear up the basement I can move the sections/modules to the attic or storage for safety. 
The swing out bridge has the advantage that it can be a little longer with proper placement and support. I had been thinking of using a drop down section with a hinge underneath but that would limit the size to table height and potentially put the surface (track, scenery, etc.) at risk of being bumped when walking by. 
I like the added higher level track too. I wonder if I could reasonably squeeze one in. 
- Web


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Web, 

I managed to talk the Chief of Right of Way into my moving some cabinets this past weekend. 

Current layout:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...nRaMRR.JPG 

The cabinets, shelving and computer table in the drawing have all been relocated. 

New version:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ap...trexp1.bmp

So now I'm scheming, imagineering, measuring and in general scratching my head on how to expand into the new wilderness. It looks like I will also need one or two "swing bridges" to get to the new area if I want to keep my running loop. 

Jan


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Quick work Jan... 

those 'swing bridges' look to be essential with the new plan. Big loops are nice to have, 
but you almost always seem to run into space, reach, or 'duc kunder' type issues, especially 
indoors. Good luck.


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Thinker, 

I'm looking at the simpler solution. Tried to engineer over the oil tank to eliminate the lift out there, but at the minimum I need to go up 12 inches from the existing layout level. Best run along the far wall is 28 feet, so 1/28 would be over a 3.5 % grade with not enough room in the new section to come back down to layout level. SIGH!!!! 

Jan


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Jan - 

keep looking at it. Keep your painfully learned priorities in mind. 
Eventually, a near perfect solution will present itself. 

I had to go back to square one to come up with my current design. 
Spent a lot of time playing with the tables, taking measurments, 
laying out one design after another. 

Took into account such things as 'reach' (yes, I did want to be able 
to reach all the track without giving the appearance of entering an 
athletic competition); 

no annoying headbangers (duck-unders) if I could manage it at all 
(mostly taken care of, as the only...quasi duck- under I got is up high 
enough to not be a serious issue); 

visibility (wanted the trains out where I could see them most of the 
time; last plan had way too much hidden track. (this time around I still 
got some - but just eight or nine feet instead of the thirty plus feet 
I had before) 

room for actual scenery - I intend to have two towns (plus a minor stop 
or three) and I wanted the towns to look like towns, drat it! Room for 
buildings and streets and sidewalks and all that stuff as well as terrain of 
sorts 'in between'. (amazingly enough, I think I managed to pull this off).


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## AppleYankee (Jan 3, 2008)

Thinker, 

Excellent points, I've been sometime just getting to the layout as it is. Lots of false starts -- adding modules, moving modules, adding a switch here and there, adding a spur, moving a yard, --the list is endless. 


Hmmm ---My criteria is much similar to yours. (My empire models European 1 meter gauge trains) 

All parts of the layout need to be accessible to the five finger crane. 
No hidden staging tracks. 
Sidings long enough to hold a minimum of two cars to max of four. 
Several major holding tracks to hold at least two trains (Engine, baggage, 1st class & 2nd class passenger cars, control car) 
One or two industrial sidings. (passenger cars far out number freight cars) 
A large city passenger station with a minimum of three parallel tracks. 
Sidings around the station area close enough to switch in/out baggage, dining, observation cars. 
Avoid duck-unders if possible. (the existing duck-unders are maintenance items. The square access area on my track plan is a 24 X 24 in, it's a pop up--the dishwasher trap and electrical 
and H2O connections are in the ceiling above that part of the layout. The larger rectangle area is 24 X 58 in, and allows access to the heating zone valves, hot and cold H2O valves in 
the ceiling. 

Yep, lot's of planning involved, lot's of plotting, cutting, fitting, but also have to keep things running because of the youngsters that come to visit and head right to the layout. 

Jan 

(Ceiling webcam shots of the Me&RaM RR, http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Ap...0RaM%20RR/http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/ma...20RaM%20RR" target=_blank>


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

Swing beats duckunder for me. That said, there's a few tricks that I learned from a friend of mine. He had a swing section that seemed to droop after a while (which is a built-in weakness in the basic concept of a swing section. The solution was to provide a small bump out (1 by 1 screwed into the receiving end) below the swing out on the non-hinged end. This acted as a resting place for the swing section and assured the tracks lined up with plenty of support. He also added a small wood dowel with a carved rounded tip that went into a matching hole on the hinge side of the section just opposite the hinge itself. This provided additional support and reduced potential twisting at the hinge end when the track section was put back in the operating position. These two tricks eliminated droop, and created trouble-free track alignment for many years. 

Swing sections may turn into a game changer for me too. I'll have to get my plans out and rethink what's possible. I still want to emphasize visitor access, but this could really help in other places (for operator access).


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## Webber (Sep 4, 2008)

You may be able to eliminate the 3% grade in exchange for a mechanical lift for your train. A recent issue of Model Railroader magazine features a garage door opener turned vertically that powered an "elevator" to lift trains. It seems like a very sturdy way to lift a large section of track with a train on it. If your willing to go through the mechanics and expense it may be an alternative to a very steep grade. You'll need a spot to put it and to look at your track plan for a return loop, but it might open up some options for your railroad. 
- Web


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ThinkerT on 24 Oct 2009 03:26 AM

. . . I had to go back to square one to come up with my current design. 
Spent a lot of time playing with the tables, taking measurments, 
laying out one design after another...

visibility (wanted the trains out where I could see them most of the 
time; last plan had way too much hidden track. (this time around I still 
got some - but just eight or nine feet instead of the thirty plus feet 
I had before) 

room for actual scenery - I intend to have two towns (plus a minor stop 
or three) and I wanted the towns to look like towns, drat it! Room for 
buildings and streets and sidewalks and all that stuff as well as terrain of 
sorts 'in between'. (amazingly enough, I think I managed to pull this off). 


So where are the pictures of all this activity? And where is the track plan?


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

So where are the pictures of all this activity? And where is the track plan? 


Still under construction, alas. (though things should be winding down enough at work and 
with winter preps here that I can at last make some serious headway.) To my astonishment,
I have collected almost all the buildings for the one town, and have a fair start on the
structures for the second. 


Pics? Errr...someday, I am going to have to get a digital camera...

Trackplan? At this point a all at the same level oval or possibly figure eight (either
one works, got to determine which one works *best*) with a long spur leading 
to a return loop. Eventually another spur will leave the oval/figure eight for the
second level.


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