# IMPORTANCE OF R/C WITH LIVE STEAM



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I found out today just how important having fully charged batteries for a transmitter and loco are.
I was running my Aster S-2 and after about an hour the battery in the transmitter began to beep si I figured that I coiulr run the S-2 manually.
Well that worked for aboutt AN hour and then the engine came uncoupled from the trailing car and off she went. I was able to stop her and back her up and rehook her to the car. Sterted her up again and she did fine until she got to same location and disconnected. This time while I was catching her and walkin backwards I grabedd her by the cab and the fell ove one of the supports for the track, taking the engine with me.

She was still running after a fall of about four feet, and Steve came over quicly to assist me. I think I must have some how let the engine fall on me and then to the ground. Put out the fire, turned off the throttle,opened the blower and things settled down.
Very little cosmetic damage, so Jeff it was not totaaly fatal. Will be back in business after the Thanksgiving Holidays.

Workin on video that I had made prior to the accident. I am still learning the engine, is reason for small consist of cars. Real touchy about correct anount on blower after start up. But I will get there.


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm glad you and your locomotive sustained only minor cosmetic damage. It was also nice that someone was there to assist you. I was alone for my last incident and it's scary. I keep my batteries fully charged for another reason and that is I'm too old, too fat and too smart to be chasing after my locomotive. Good to read that all is okay.


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds more like the importance of having good track work.









-Brian


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

tHE TRACK WORK IS FINE. tHE SETUP WAS ORIGINALLY SET UP NOT PLANNING ON OPERATORS ON INSIDE OF TRACK LAYOUT. I JUST MADE A BAD MISTAKE. NOT THE OWNER OF TRACKS FAULT.
NOT YELLING WITH CAPS, JUST TIRED.


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

Art, 

I'm glad to hear that you and your S2 emerged unscathed. All of my locomotives are manually controlled so reaching out and slowing them down to a stop becomes second nature. I did have an incident while down in Portland this fall where someone running another train failed to return a switch on this rather large indoor layout after they set their friends train in a siding. My S2 followed down that siding with me following behind it and before I could stop it, plowed into the rear of the train and its 1:20.3 caboose. The cowcatcher casting is very delicate and was slightly crushed by the impact while the pilot beam fasteners remained embeded. I didn't notice the dragging cowcatcher as I let the train run around the track until it picked a switch point and sent the S2 airborne into the soft gravel roadbed a short distance to almost landing on the concrete floor. I replaced the beam and cowcatcher and luckily everything else was intact. Just one less thing to have to remember, fresh batteries and having to be on the lookout for not so experienced people running around a layout.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Art good to hear YOUR ok, the engine can always be fixed! I'll have a chat with Steve about those "trip hazards" hehe.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 11/18/2008 5:27 PM
Art good to hear YOUR ok, the engine can always be fixed! I'll have a chat with Steve about those "trip hazards" hehe. 


We were debating whether to call the paramedics for Art or the engine first.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

It is good to know that Art has his priorities right. The heck with skin and bones --- save the engine.


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 11/18/2008 6:37 PM


It is good to know that Art has his priorities right. The heck with skin and bones --- save the engine.

Here are Art and Steve giving it CPR


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

*NO NO NO, * It goes  ON THE TRACK,  NOT UNDER


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Art was real lucky...................his train Guardian Angel was with him. He went straight down on his back/side with the S2 on top of him. He was determined to not let that engine hit the rocks below, and when I got to him the S2's drivers were still blazing away with engine and tender twisted on top of him. Because the engine did fall on him, the damage is not near as bad as you would think. He was fortunate that alcohol did not splash all over him and ignite. It could have really been a whole lot worse for Art and the S2. Now that all is "ok" we can chuckle about it....................to bad Arts camera was not rolling to catch the action!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, chuckle about it 'now'... when it happens the nerves are a bit jangled. I have had 4 "MAJOR" accidents with one of my Mikes. 

The 1st one actually injured me; gashed the palm of my hand when I tried to catch the engine when it fell from the railing of my deck... I had it upside-down oiling it and dropped a screwdriver; I checked that the engine was stable and all was okay, so I bent over to get the screwdriver and heard the loco come rolling off sideways after me. I don't know what part of the engine gashed my hand, but the only thing that broke (besides my skin) was the nipple for the water inlet from the tender (easily replaced).

The 2nd one got video taped and is kind of related to the comment about keeping the R/C batteries charged... I had put the R/C transmitter down and had collapsed he telescoping antenna to be sure I didn't break it while I worked on the engine; when I picked it up I forgot to extend the antenna and with only 20-ft of range from the transmitter with the short stubby collapsed antenna the engine got away from me. You can see the video in the MLS topic at:

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/4/postid/57689/view/topic/Default.aspx

(It is the 1st of the two videos there.) The only damages was a bent cowcatcher and lots of dirt and grass on the front truck. The cowcatcher was easily bent back into place and the grass and dirt brushed off.

The 3ird one also got video taped. (It is the 2nd of the two videos at the above link.) It presents the result of not paying attention to switches. The damages were a bent frame and cowcatcher and a broken arm on the servo for the throttle. It was running again in an hour!

The 4th time... well... I used to run every Sunday afternoon and ALWAYS started by hand pushing a boxcar around the track to look for twigs and other obstructions, and for problems with the track... NEVER did I ever find a problem with the track, so one Sunday I just glanced around and not seeing any leaves or twigs on the track I fired up the engine and let 'er go... the track had separated on the far side of one of the loop-backs and the loco derailed there and landed in the grass about 3 and a half feet down. Damage this time was one handrail stanchion broke and another two bent and the mounting bolt for the headlight broke. The hardest part to fix?... getting the bolt remnant out of the headlight casting so I could remount the thing! Took a bit longer to repair, but I had it running by the next Sunday... and I walked around that track inspecting every rail joint very closely!


Glad you weren't hurt... but I wonder if you'll have some aches in the morning?

Aster Locomotives can take a wrecking and keep on trekking!


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## topshed (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi all,


Boy you do have some fun when they come off the rails! It looks to me as if the real problem is related to running on elevated tracks (I'm still flexible enough to run mine on the ground!). Perhaps the possibility of this kind of derailment could be taken into account by people contemplating building such a line. A wider baseboard might eliminate most problems, while on existing layouts a crash barrier/fence could be erected at sensitive areas.


I have just removed the R/C system from my C-16, with a huge improvement in reliability and performance. The ageing servos were getting quite glitchy and it was impossible to keep the johnson bar in position even when everything was fully charged. The biggest problem was with the rectanguar gas tank running along the axis of the tender. When the gas was fairly full and the loco stalled briefly with a glitch, a gout of liquid gas would be sent through the jet and blow out the fire. I thought about new servos, but I have a couple of manual locos so thought I'd try that first and was so pleased I scrapped the R/C altogether. I could not do this with some locos however, I have a couple of R/C controlled Roundhouse locos which are superb runners. However, due to a couple of gradients on my line, there is no throttle setting at which they could be left to run; they either crawl up the grades and race the rest, or run nicely on the level and stall as soon as they hit the hill, so for them, R/C is a must.


Thanks for an interesting thread with some exciting episodes! (Glad no-one was hurt)


Martin.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 11/18/2008 6:37 PM


It is good to know that Art has his priorities right. The heck with skin and bones --- save the engine.

Yup. Skin and bone heal. As I have discovered over the years, a scratch or a dent on a train doesn't get better if you ignore it.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Another steamer joins becomes a FAC member: Flying Aster Card holder. Good to see and hear all worked out without serious injury to person or machine. Next question, was it the track or wheel out of gauge?


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 11/19/2008 4:11 AM
Another steamer joins becomes a FAC member: Flying Aster Card holder. Good to see and hear all worked out without serious injury to person or machine. Next question, was it the track of out of gauge wheel?


It was neither. The locomotive came uncoupled from the train and took off. When Art tried to grab it to stop it he tripped and fell and pulled the engine off the track and it fell on top him. Fortunately Art was not hurt and the engine only suffered some minor damage. I bet he works on that coupler before next time.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm....then maybe coupler problem?


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Charles, it's almost certainly uneven track in the area where it uncoupled repeatedly. The locomotive and train should be pushed by hand through the offending area and all will quickly be revealed. Make sure all couplers are mounted 1 1/16" to the centre of the coupler above the top of the rail.
David M-K
Ottawa


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GaugeOneLines on 11/19/2008 12:06 PM
Charles, it's almost certainly uneven track in the area where it uncoupled repeatedly.
David M-K
Ottawa



It most certainly is not. We are not totally stupid down here in Texas. Art has a coupler problem. The track is fine and all the wheels are in gauge. Only the tender and first car came loose. Nothing else.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Just got back from making a short trip about 50 miles up the road. Did not tell my spouse about the accident and boy did I hurt all day. Felt like these 73 year old gones and muscles
were just that "73 YearOld" bones. Nothing in body broken and have not really looked the S-2 over closely. Steve looked at it pretty close after the evbent and said he saw no real serious damage. 

Glad to hear i am not the only one who has experienced this. Bet oyu Ill ahve charged batteries and my peripheral vision on next time we run.


Thanks for your words of comfort and encouragement.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

It would be great to have a fail safe device that would shut the throttle if an engine exceeds a certain speed. I have radio control on my berkshire but generally prefer running 'au naturel' but this does lead to an inevitable slew of incidents. 

A few weeks back I was running my 232 U1 with a bunch of heavy j&m wagon lit coaches. The 232 pulls like a carthorse and the momentum of the whole consist when up to speed is considerable. The track I was using at the time belongs to Pete Comley and is long so we running two trains concurrently with generally careful attention to ensure that they keep well apart. Pete's track is part elevated, part at ground level and partly inaccessible due to vegetation. Just as the 232 was entering the inaccessible section, I realized that the train in front (S2) had stopped unexpectedly and my 232 was heading towards it with considerable momentum. I couldn't reach the engine, so grabbed one of the coaches and managed to bring the thing to a halt - except the coupling between the tender and engine came apart causing the alcohol pipe to detach promptly setting fire to the track. I put out the fire and did something really dumb - I detached the water pipes not realizing that they were all that was holding the engine back. The residual pressure in the boiler was considerable and, free of all burdensome load, she took off like a scolded cat. I dived into the bushes and was just able to tip her off the track thus preventing a much more serious accident. Luckily, being at ground level, little damage was done except for a liberal covering of pine needles but I've been pondering ever since how to make a fail safe device. 

This day got even more exciting a few minutes later. An Accucraft Daylight came to halt just where the track passes under a small pine tree. The tree caught fire.......


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Art said:
boy did I hurt all day.

I told you that you would be sore the next day. I was looking right at you when you fell, and believe me...................it was a nasty fall!







Taking human damage out of the equation, the worse accident I have ever seen was when a Aster Daylight running at warp speed picked a switch and jumped head on into a parked Accucraft shay on a side track on my elevated lay out. The Shay literally exploded, and there was enough force to bend the Daylight draw bar between engine and tender into a /\ shape. The Daylight is built like a tank and was fixed with new parts. While the Shay was piece milled back together, she does have a little "catch in her get along" now.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a "fail-safe" device for servos that will set the servo to a preselected position if there is loss of RF signal. It is designed for R/C aircraft in case it gets out of range the plane will start flying in circles until the operator can get closer to it to gain control.

I used one for a while on my Mikes to center the reverser to bring the loco to a halt if my transmitter failed or the loco got out of range (per the 2nd accident I had with the first Mike... see my previous reply).

Unfortunately, it is also sensitive to the battery Voltage. As long as the batteries (I use either 5 rechargeable or 4 alkaline) are REALLY, REALLY GOOD it works fine, but it seems the Voltage soon droops and it causes the servo to center the reverser, then it recovers and goes back to normal operation, then it centers the reverser, then it goes back to normal, etc. This causes the train to lurch a lot after about 15 minutes of running. NO FUN. (The Conductor in the caboose gets real upset if his coffee sloshes around like that!)

Maybe a switch on the loco with a string to the tender (or first car behind the loco/tender pair) that if the loco gets away from the rest of the train it would pull this string and trip the switch which would move the servos to close the throttle and center the reverser. Similar to the key on a snowmobile that if the driver falls off it shuts down the motor.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

RE, THE COUPLERS ON THE s-2. i HAD BEEN RUNNING THE ENGINE FOR OVER TWO HOURS BEFORE THE FAILURE OCCURED. I WILL CHECK THEM OUT THOUGH. IM NOT YELLING WITH THE CAPS, JUST TIRED.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe a switch on the loco with a string


On my boat, they call them 'kill switches' and that sounds like a good idea and leads to some interesting possibilities. 

My C-16 r/c, which admittedly is an old analog setup, will hold the servos in their current position until the signal comes back - I guess the theory is that the plane shouldn't suddenly stop doing what it is doing! The new Spektrum systems have a 'fall-back' mode that allows you to set throttle, etc., to where you want them if the signal fails. 

I can think of many variations, but the best might be a kill switch that operates to stop the loco if the signal from the (or a) transmitter is lost. Then your 'kill switch' is the power switch on the transmitter. 

Some transmitters may only send signals when an action is required: RCS does it that way, and I suspect the Spektrum may also not be continuously transmitting (but the latter has the fall-back programming)? In which case it may be worth investing in a separate transmitter that activates the kill switch, or (vice versa) activates the kill switch when the transmitter is out of range or stops. The transmitter doesn't have to be very clever and could be of higher-power (= more range) than a standard radio. Like a WiFi access point. 

Even if you are running manually, the 'kill switch' could be very useful when you trip over a tree root, boulder, or track support! 

On a multi-thousand-dollar locomotive, it seems like it could be done for a few $$ and would be well worth the cost.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

All the Ar6000 and ar6200 receivers for Spektrum radios have a built in fail safe. Set the fail safe to throttle closed when you link the system. Then just turn off the transmitter. 

Ta Da! Throttle closes.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, per the original scenario, shutting off the transmitter is no different than manually closing the throttle to stop the engine... it is just that one can be done remotely... the real problem here was the presence of mind to do so (either one of them). In the frenzy of the accident the reliable "presence of mind" was not so reliable (as is usual in the panic of the moment). So the "automatic" method would mitigate the lack of presence of mind and shut the engine down no matter what. 

In addition, you also want to put the reverser in neutral since the throttle can sometimes leak. There are even times when you want to momentarily put the engine in reverse before going to neutral because in some valve gear setups, the engine will continue to run in whatever direction it was running when put in neutral... ya gotta get it stopped completely first before neutral does any good.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Presence pf mind was not an issue here. Both tne batteries in the transmitter were dead and the battery that went to the server in loco was disconnected so the fail safe feature of the Spectrum was a non event.
The whole idea of the thread was to say if you gonna run steam you better be ready for all events. Had I had the transmitter charged and the battery in the sever connected this whole problem
would be non existent. Like someone said earlier, when the loco disconnted, all that was necessary was to shut down the throttle. but that did not happen

Went to gargae to day to see what cosmetic damage was done to engine and there was more than I had anticipated. Worked on it for sometime and believe that most has been fixed.
Will test run her this weekend.

What the heck, it had to happen sometime sooner or later. At least some of you guys were honest enough to admit that you have had similar experiences.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

too bad there isn't some electronics genius out there that could make a circuit that would turn the throttle down to nothing when the train got out of radio contact like that.


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Art,

As you know, I am not a fan of radio control for live steam. One major reason is that I have had the experiance of the train speed getting away from me and the train going off the track. Luckily, I have never had this experiance with my manual control engines.

I do have one radio contro engine that I purchased strickly for running on John Frank's groung level garden railroad. My old knees just cannot take the stress of ground level operation.


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