# Alkohol vs Methanol - Warning



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Dear All
 
This might be "wood to the fire". But I think you need to be informed.
 
One of the joys of "my hobby" is putting old locomotives back to a good mechanical state. (I quess that makes me a "builder" more than a "driver")
I mostly have old Asters, and Im very happy with the design of the "god old days".
The latest engine in the stock is a JNR C11.  This machine has had a life in the US, and has used Methanol as fuel source.
Unfortinatly it was a "no-runner" at arrival.  It was quickly discovered that there was a leak somewhere that blev out the wicks.
 
The machine is now in the toolshop totally taken apart, and the findings are rather worring.
 
The boiler is a "smithies", with a cupperpipe going from the regulator to the steam cheast - UNDER the boiler. The idea is of course that it will work as a simple superheater.
It works ok on other locomotives, and if you know how to run a smithies, it wont give any problems.
BUT
This cupperpipe is the source of the leak.  Something I have never seen before.  The metal is very badly corroded in a section of about 10 cm.
The pipe is very very soft and thin. It looks like it has had an attak of acid from the outside.
 
We dont use Methanol as a fuelsource here in Denmark. But I pressume that it is the aggresive properties of the methanol, that is the cause to this.
I guess that the wicks somehow has been in contact with the pipe and it has therefore been in contact with the fluid and not just flames.
Another guess could be that the pipe has been heated up too much dry, and this is the cause to the softness. Though this I have not seen on the other locomotives.
 
It is just speculation.  Im silversoldering a replacment pipe in, and then it ought to be fine again.
Any of you others who has seen anything like this?
 
 
Regards
 
David
(From a cold Denmark)


----------



## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hello David, 

From an also cold Wisconsin--but my mother was Danish (born in Aalborg)--to get the conversation going between us..... That is interesting speculation--both alcohol and methonol are corrosive--as is water for that matter....so I'm not sure there is any real proof that methanol should be banned from use here based on your incident however. I've used in for many years with little to no negative impact on my locomotives--other than my own abuse. Smithies boilers I've also owned as well (some old Asters) but I've not seen or heard of that issue. I do know that methanol is particularly corrosive with some metals--al and magnesium in particular-but I leave that to the chemists out there. Perhaps others have more evidence of this problem in their experience. 

Thanks for your observations. 

Sam


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Am I right to assume you are using the word "Alcohol" to refer to "Ethanol"? Around here the word "Alcohol" is loosely used to refer to any of several forms of hydrocarbons.

Ethanol C2H5OH,
Methanol CH3OH,

Both of which are sold in hardware stores to cut shellac, but the Ethanol version is blended with some small amount of Methanol so it is poisonous and to thus avoid the Tax [placed on the drinkable Ethanol. Other things are also put into the mix to supposedly help the shellac dissolve and spread evenly (such as Rubber cement solvent, Hexane, and other "stuff", which also renders the product undrinkable).

There are other forms that people call "Alcohol" that are more common, but not as useful for fuel in our trains, Isopropyl Alcohol, Propanol, Butanol, Pentanol, etc.

Then there are the grocery store and drugstore "Rubbing alcohol" products that are one of the other forms, but watered down considerably and are totally useless for fire fuel. These are used to either help lubricate the skin during a massage, or as a sterilizer for self-administered hypodermic injections (Shots).

There are other names applied that some folk still use that confuse matters even more

Ethanol is sometimes called "Grain Alcohol" and sometimes just by the generic "Booze" as it is the "drinkable" kind.

Methanol is sometimes called "Wood Alcohol".

Ethanol causes brain damage when consumed by a living organism, some is only temporary, but there is also a cumulative effect.

Methanol is broken down by a living organism first into formaldehyde and then into Carbon Monoxide and is quite deadly.

I know from horrible experience that I cannot inhale the fumes of the combustion of Methanol, but those from Ethanol as not too bad.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I forgot to add that maybe the previous owner of the engine in question was using one of the hardware store Shellac cutting products and it contained additives that caused the problem.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David_DK on 12 Feb 2013 03:43 PM 
Dear All

This might be "wood to the fire". But I think you need to be informed.

One of the joys of "my hobby" is putting old locomotives back to a good mechanical state. (I quess that makes me a "builder" more than a "driver")
I mostly have old Asters, and Im very happy with the design of the "god old days".
The latest engine in the stock is a JNR C11. This machine has had a life in the US, and has used Methanol as fuel source.
Unfortinatly it was a "no-runner" at arrival. It was quickly discovered that there was a leak somewhere that blev out the wicks.

The machine is now in the toolshop totally taken apart, and the findings are rather worring.

The boiler is a "smithies", with a cupperpipe going from the regulator to the steam cheast - UNDER the boiler. The idea is of course that it will work as a simple superheater.
It works ok on other locomotives, and if you know how to run a smithies, it wont give any problems.
BUT
This cupperpipe is the source of the leak. Something I have never seen before. The metal is very badly corroded in a section of about 10 cm.
The pipe is very very soft and thin. It looks like it has had an attak of acid from the outside.

We dont use Methanol as a fuelsource here in Denmark. But I pressume that it is the aggresive properties of the methanol, that is the cause to this.
I guess that the wicks somehow has been in contact with the pipe and it has therefore been in contact with the fluid and not just flames.
Another guess could be that the pipe has been heated up too much dry, and this is the cause to the softness. Though this I have not seen on the other locomotives.

It is just speculation. Im silversoldering a replacment pipe in, and then it ought to be fine again.
Any of you others who has seen anything like this?


Regards

David
(From a cold Denmark)



David
I do not believe that either alcohol or methanol was the cause but more to the nature of the plumbing: "cupperpipe going from the regulator" As with many "copper" superheater pipes we have found on other production locomotives over time will become defective. The solution is not a change of fuel be to use stainless for the piping.


----------



## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I would agree that the difference is not so much the type of alcohol, but rather the use of a copper pipe. Put copper in any flame and you will start oxidizing the surface. Both methyl and ethyl alcohol produce an acidic mixture when they burn which then dissolves the black oxide coating. A stainless alloy would be much more resistant. We can sometimes get away with copper in alcohol burners because the flame temperature is lower. A butane burner is essentially a miniature torch. That hot blue flame would melt copper easily. 

As far as the types of alcohol, either methyl or ethyl in a pure anhydrous (dry) form will burn well. In the U. S. dry methyl alcohol is sometimes used at the local drag strip. Dry ethyl alcohol is available at the local liquor store as 190 proof vodka (very expensive) or still not cheap in the denatured form from a science store. The hardware stuff is going to be a complex, constantly changing mixture that may be good for paint striping, but the burning properties can be nasty. A few checks of the MSDS reports indicate that most brands can have several different formulations.


----------



## David_DK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi 
Thanks for the answers. I'm pro the "dry superheater"-theory now, where copper is a bad material. 

I will solder in a straight stainless piece of tube in the middel, where the flames are hardest. 
(tube has a lot of complex bends, so this is the easy solution) 
I ll put up a few phtos, for those intrested. 

Alcohol (Ethanol) is easy to buy in a 93 or 95 % pure grade in Denmark. (Denaturated, so you don't drink it) 
We have a long tradition for making Alcohol (Ethanol), so everyone uses it for cleaning windows and for starting up the grill. (burns well) 
... and for trains. 
Pure ethanol (97%) can be bought, but if you want it as a fuelsource you will need special permits, unless you are willing to pay big time... 

Sam: I actually live in Aalborg!. Where did your mother live? (my house is from 1872) 

Regards 
David 

.


----------



## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

David, 

I'm not sure--she left Denmark with her parents in the late 40s when she was a teenager. I have an Aunt and cousins in Copenhagen. I've not travelled there as yet but perhaps someday. I think I'd like to visit Aalborg if I do. 

Methonol is nasty stuff to burn but fairly easy to acquire here. If I come to Denmark, perhaps we'll look you up and have to some of the lighter stuff..... 

Sam


----------



## bobrstrong (Mar 25, 2013)

Posted By gwscheil on 13 Feb 2013 08:57 AM 
I would agree that the difference is not so much the type of alcohol, but rather the use of a copper pipe. Put copper in any flame and you will start oxidizing the surface. Both methyl and ethyl alcohol produce an acidic mixture when they burn which then dissolves the black oxide coating. A stainless alloy would be much more resistant. We can sometimes get away with copper in alcohol burners because the flame temperature is lower. A butane burner is essentially a miniature torch. That hot blue flame would melt copper easily. 

As far as the types of alcohol, either methyl or ethyl in a pure anhydrous (dry) form will burn well. In the U. S. dry methyl alcohol is sometimes used at the local drag strip. Dry ethyl alcohol is available at the local liquor store as 190 proof vodka (very expensive) or still not cheap in the denatured form from a science store. The hardware stuff is going to be a complex, constantly changing mixture that may be good for paint striping, but the burning properties can be nasty. A few checks of the MSDS reports indicate that most brands can have several different formulations.


The Dry methyl alcohol you speak of as used in Dragsters is available in some speed shops and I purchased back years ago but gave it up as it was also very pricey and I found the common denatured alcohol bought at the local large hardware stores is sufficient if not better for our live steam purposes.
Thanks for this posting though, it is very informative.


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Another reason for using Ethanol vs Methanol has to do with the boiling point of the liquid. This is important when the fuel supply has a propensity to heat up, and boil. As an example, the fuel tank on the Aster Pannier is in the locomotive, dangerously close to the fire. If the alcohol boils, it will burst into flames. The little kids sure liked it, but the wires and servo on my radio control setup sure did not. Even with layers of insulation on the front of the fuel tank, the problem still occurred. Besides un-radio controlling the Pannier, the solution that seems to have worked well is using pure Ethanol, rather than Denatured Alcohol from the hardware store, or worse than that, Methanol. Ethanol has about a 14 degree C. higher boiling point than does Methanol, just enough, if you insulate the crap out of the fuel tank, to keep it from boiling. Where can I get pure Ethanol, you might ask? On line I found this site.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Just an aside here from "The States."

A popular brand of denatured alcohol here is "Kean Strip" available in Home Depot as well as other hardware stores.

The standard variety in the blue and red labeled can is highly toxic as in only 42.5% to 46.5% Ethanol and 52.5 to 55% Methanol with 1 % MIBK

The above is what I started working with as a burnable fuel for my locos.

MSDS info here:

http://www.kleanstrip.com/uploads/do...cohol_MSDS.pdf

H O W E V E R!

Kleen Strip also makes a "Green" version of the product for about the same price:

85% to 90% Ethanol
less than 5% Methanol
less than 3% MIBK

MSDS info here:

http://www.kleanstrip.com/uploads/do...cohol_MSDS.pdf

Obviously, if you can get the Green stuff it is better for your locos and better for you as well.

. . .

From the Wiki:



> Methanol has a high toxicity in humans. If as little as 10 mL of pure methanol is ingested, for example, it can break down into formic acid, which can cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve, and 30 mL is potentially fatal,[12] although the median lethal dose is typically 100 mL (3.4 fl oz) (i.e. 1–2 mL/kg body weight of pure methanol[13]). Reference dose for methanol is 2 mg/kg/day.[14]



Nowadays, I use only the Green stuff.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

To summarize my intent above:

Not all "denatured alcohol" is created equal. 

It is a good idea to read the MSDS sheets and know the methanol versus ethanol content and get the stuff that has the lowest methanol and highest ethanol content.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

steamtom1 said:


> Another reason for using Ethanol vs Methanol has to do with the boiling point of the liquid. This is important when the fuel supply has a propensity to heat up, and boil. As an example, the fuel tank on the Aster Pannier is in the locomotive, dangerously close to the fire. If the alcohol boils, it will burst into flames. The little kids sure liked it, but the wires and servo on my radio control setup sure did not. Even with layers of insulation on the front of the fuel tank, the problem still occurred. Besides un-radio controlling the Pannier, the solution that seems to have worked well is using pure Ethanol, rather than Denatured Alcohol from the hardware store, or worse than that, Methanol. Ethanol has about a 14 degree C. higher boiling point than does Methanol, just enough, if you insulate the crap out of the fuel tank, to keep it from boiling. Where can I get pure Ethanol, you might ask? On line I found this site.


Their pricing seems to be a bit weird! You can get 3 quarts for $29.99 or you can get a gallon for $29.99... WHY would anyone pay the same for 3 quarts as for 4 quarts?

As for using the "Kleen Strip" brand commonly available at hardware stores (like Tru-Value)... I used to use it and accidently got a lung full of the combustion vapors and it nearly put me on the ground... had to sit for quite a while before I had my wits about me enough to shut things down and go in the house to recover. I now use "S-L-X" brand (from Home Depot around here) and it is not nearly as noxious to me (but I still take extra precautions to NOT breathe in any fumes from it).


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Semper Vaporo said:


> Their pricing seems to be a bit weird! You can get 3 quarts for $29.99 or you can get a gallon for $29.99... WHY would anyone pay the same for 3 quarts as for 4 quarts?
> 
> As for using the "Klean Strip" brand commonly available at hardware stores (like Tru-Value)... I used to use it and accidently got a lung full of the combustion vapors and it nearly put me on the ground... had to sit for quite a while before I had my wits about me enough to shut things down and go in the house to recover. I now use "S-L-X" brand (from Home Depot around here) and it is not nearly as noxious to me (but I still take extra precautions to NOT breathe in any fumes from it).


S-L-X is also Kleen Strip denatured alcohol with high methanol content.

I would guess that you exposed yourself to the vapors of the high methanol content Klean Strip denatured alcohol, hence I recommended only the Green stuff.

See here:

MSDS:

http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat2/MSDS/MSDS%20-%20SLX.pdf

Note that the MSDS does not identify S-L-X but it does show the correct P/N QSL26

and here

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...ums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=55811

Looks like the *Klean Strip S-L-X* stuff is 45% to 50% Ethanol and 45 to 50% methanol, so not much better than the standard Kleen Strip variety, and not nearly as good as Klean Strip Green.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

When this happened, years ago, they were definitely NOT the same product. In my investigation, they were made by two separate companies and what little info was available on the MSDS I had showed a definite difference in formulation. Rumor had it not long afterward that the Feds were changing the rules on what was allowed in such products and the formulas for the two products were getting closer and closer to being the same. (I know from personal experience they were not the same when I was buying it).

I have not purchased either of them for some time and do not know how I would react to either product now, but next time I get some, I will be testing S-L-X first and may have to go try some other product... I have always wondered how well Vodka or Gin would be as a fuel.


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

The pricing is a little hokey, but the stuff is wonderful. Besides having a higher boiling point, it also has a higher heat content, about 19,000 BTU/Gal more than methanol. I have run it in my Pannier over a dozen times, and it has not once burst into flames, as it regularly did on methanol, although that has disappointed the younger crowd.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

steamtom1 said:


> The pricing is a little hokey, but the stuff is wonderful. Besides having a higher boiling point, it also has a higher heat content, about 19,000 BTU/Gal more than methanol. I have run it in my Pannier over a dozen times, and it has not once burst into flames, as it regularly did on methanol, although that has disappointed the younger crowd.


I was unable to download the MSDS for that product. How is it denatured? Or is it?


----------



## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

If you put your cursor on one to the bottles, and click on *Quick View,* here is what you get...

Denaturated Alcohol
For child safety, bitterant is added as a human aversive. It's overwhelming bitter taste helps prevent accidental ingestion by children and small animals.
We recommend ONLY using Moda Flame™ ethanol fireplace fuel for ALL ventless ethanol fireplaces. 
 Clean, Pure Plant-Based Fuel
 *100% Natural Alcohol* 
Clean Burning Fuel - NO Soot or Hazardous Fumes. 
*No Oil Products Added*.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Here is the MSDS Safety sheet for Moda Flame Bio-Ethanol Fireplace fuel:

http://american-ethanol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AEC-ETHANOL-MSDS.v1.pdf

If I am reading the sheet correctly, it is >90% Ethanol, <10% "proprietary ingredients, <1% Denatonium Benzoate (bitterant billed as the most bitter compound known to man,) and between 4.8% to 9% isopropyl alcohol.

I like the over 90% Ethanol part ;-) 

Not so sure about the proprietary ingredient part but it looks to be much better than any denatured alcohol with high methanol content.

Cheers,

Joe


----------

