# Which has greater value: LGB & Aristo or IBM/MS & Apple?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

My first computer was a Commodore 64 in 1982 followed by an IBM PC XT running IBM DOS 2.1 followed by MS DOS, Windows 3.11 etc.

LGB came out with the 2018D Mogul in 1982. My first LGB Mogul was a very used LGB 2018D made from various pieces of different LGB Moguls (I restored it to like new condition).

My first LS Train was a used Aristo-Craft Pacific with Heavyweights.

A couple of years ago I dumped the last of the IBM/Windows desktops and laptops and bought Windows 8 laptops and a desktop (none of which have worked well).

Instead I went with Apple OS and iOS. Now I have a 2 year old iPhone 5 (new battery last month) that won't hold a charge more than a day or so.

With Apple you can buy AppleCare+ for 2 years on iOS or for 3 years with OS. After that you have to pay Apple to even talk with you.

I've spent more on computers, software, monitors & printers than for LGB, Aristo-Craft and other brands of Large Scale trains and stuff. 

Current value and or usability of all the pre-Windows 8 stuff?

NOTHING!!! All is now gone to the dump or to Goodwill.

Current value and or usability of all the LGB, Aristo-Craft, USA, and other brands of LS train stuff?

Immeasurable!

There have been a few electronic items that have failed over the years but even my oldest trains, track etc. will maintain their usefulness and outlive me.

This may change somewhat as the impact of LGB and Aristo-Craft no longer providing their former levels of parts and service impact our future needs but in general, if we take care of our trains etc. there is little (if anything) that can match the years and years of future entertainment we can expect from them.

Of course, I am comparing business equipment to entertainment products but, being retired, all of it now comes under entertainment for me.

Jerry


----------



## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

We do live in a throw away society. However, I don't throw away my LGB items. I have a son that is in the hobby, and as I grow tired of an item or wish to try something different, he is only too happy to be given anything LGB.
I have an LGB streetcar that blew a main circuit. It no longer works but makes a great shelf queen. Regards, Dennis


----------



## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Check ebay!! I sold a running luggable from 83 for $300 a while back.


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> My first computer was a Commodore 64 in 1982 followed by an IBM PC XT running IBM DOS 2.1 followed by MS DOS, Windows 3.11 etc.
> 
> LGB came out with the 2018D Mogul in 1982. My first LGB Mogul was a very used LGB 2018D made from various pieces of different LGB Moguls (I restored it to like new condition).
> 
> ...


Hey Jerry,

As far as computers are concerned, I too, have moved on from Microsoft and PC's! I STILL run a fast PC using XPPro ONLY because my MasterCam software (at $30,000 a pop) only runs on a PC! I recently purchased a new MacBook Pro 15" laptop and I'm using it for all my internet work. There is a learning curve with Macs, but at least I'm learning a new system at 71 years old!


----------



## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

How much time do you spend on your computer, including any business, household items (e.g., budget), _*Internet talking about trains and other things*_, buying stuff, games, music, etc., etc., etc., as opposed to actually out working on the railroad and rolling stock?

How much different would your railroad be if you didn't have access to this braintrust via your computer?

Nuff said.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

In answer to Jerry's question: LGB & Aristo , hands down!


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Gary Armitstead said:


> Hey Jerry,
> 
> As far as computers are concerned, I too, have moved on from Microsoft and PC's! I STILL run a fast PC using XPPro ONLY because my MasterCam software (at $30,000 a pop) only runs on a PC! I recently purchased a new MacBook Pro 15" laptop and I'm using it for all my internet work. There is a learning curve with Macs, but at least I'm learning a new system at 71 years old!


Hi Gary,

For some unknown reason my IBM desktops with XP Pro (purchased cheap from State Surplus) one by one quit running on me (the CD drives just plain quit reading data). I could not find any evidence of a virus or anything. Finally I gave up when MS announced they would no longer support XP.

XP Pro and Office 2003 served all my needs and could continue to do so today but new software started only working with Windows newer than XP.

I bought my severe autistic granddaughter an iPad 1 when it came out and for whatever reasons she absolutely loved it so whenever a new iPad came out I bought it for her and swapped it for the old iPad.

My wife would kill anyone who tried to take her iPad or iPad Mini from her. 

I too use the iPads a lot but to me they are simply not real computers. Like you I got the MacBook Pro and it now lives downstairs with the trains where I am using it to inventory and keep up with the layouts for insurance etc. I LOVE the illuminated keyboard. I like the MacBook Pro but I still prefer MS Office on it to Apple's Pages, Numbers etc.

My favorites have become the Mac Mini's with various HDMI monitors or TV screens and MS wireless keyboards and mice.

That said I have never found Apple software (iOS or OS) very intuitive. Apple instructions (if any) are worse than LGB's. Amazingly I bought the MacBook Pro 15" (Retina) when it first came out and even today there has never been a manual available for it (as far as I know).

I decided back when I bought the first iPads etc. that in about 3 years I would probably end up hating Apple and now when my iPhone 5 can hardly hold a charge 24 hours and the 3 years is about up I am starting to think again that I may end up hating Apple.

It could be worse. My film cameras are about worthless and everyone is now using iPhones and iPads for 99% of their photography so I no longer find any enjoyment in photography.

Jerry


----------



## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Oh I don't know. Depends on the computer. The Lisa sells for quite a bit.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry McColgan said:


> This may change somewhat as the impact of LGB and Aristo-Craft no longer providing their former levels of parts and service............


LGB has actually getting much much better in that in the last couple of years.
There is a long list of exploded prts diagrams on the LGB website along with lists and lists of replacement parts one can buy.

Knut


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

krs said:


> LGB has actually getting much much better in that in the last couple of years.
> There is a long list of exploded prts diagrams on the LGB website along with lists and lists of replacement parts one can buy.
> 
> Knut


 I really hope that will prove to be the case as I have nothing but the best wishes for the future of LGB. I think Ron is the perfect person to make good things happen for LGB.


Last night and this morning, as with most days, I've been running one of my old LGB 2219s PRR Moguls and coaches on the wall in my bedroom They look and run as good as the day they were made.

Jerry


----------



## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Neither... Based on the current craziness going on in the collector car world, any car made before 1970 is worth its weight in platinum! The way things are going in a few years even a POC 1980 Dodge Omni is going to worth its weight in Myrrh. You're better off sinking your money there than in trains or computers, investment wise...


----------



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

My wife and I have always had MS/PCs and they have always done everything we asked of them. Is Apple better? Maybe, but why change when we're happy with what we have.

As far as LGB or Aristo Craft goes, they both have their good and bad points. I have both and while I don't run any of them a lot, they all have for the most part been reliable. I have a used LGB Mogul that burn't up the boards inside and a used Aristo Pacific that never ran from the day I bought it even though it was said to have run before being boxed up.


----------



## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

I've had frustrations with consumer electronics too.

I think the industry is just hurting itself with poor reliability, deliberate rapid obsolescence, release of under-developed products to the market, incompatible stuff, and failure to protect consumers from harmful spyware and hackers.

There are a few things you can try doing to improve your device's lifespan:

- Keep it off the internet as much as possible. Use a secondary, cheap machine for web access, but keep your data, budgets, photo editing, on a machine which isn't online. 

- Keep batteries between 50% and 80% charged. Only go to full charge when you know you'll be away from charging capability for awhile.

- Keep important files on a USB or portable hard drive. Back everything up regularly. Store photos and videos on a separate hard drive. Keeping your machine's drive nearly empty improves performance and helps safeguard your data.

- Consider buying business PC's instead of consumer models. There's less pre-installed advertising and spyware, and the technology tends to stay stable longer.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

BigRedOne said:


> There are a few things you can try doing to improve your device's lifespan:
> 
> - Keep it off the internet as much as possible. Use a secondary, cheap machine for web access, but keep your data, budgets, photo editing, on a machine which isn't online.
> 
> ...


We use both Windows PC's and Macs in the family and what you describe applies mostly to the Windows PC only.

The Macs are on the net 24/7, no problem; the Windows PC didn't last a single day without getting malware on it.

Battery charged between 50 and 80%? That's a new one to me.
Apple actuallyrecommends "calibrating" it once a month which means a full discharge and then a full charge.
I have over 500 battery cycles on one MacBook and it's still going strong.

Back up is always good no matter which computer one uses. Macs and PCs use the same hard drives from the same manufacturers.
As to keeping your hard drive nearly empty to improve performance and safeguard data - never heard of that either.
You don't want to fill upthe hard drive completely, butup to 80% or so full should be no problem. You get the best performance boost if needed by adding RAM.

And "business" vs "consumer" models - again, applies only to Windows - there is only one model line up with the Mac, the one I use in the office is the same one I use at home and there is only one version of the Mac desktop OS - no installed advertising or spyware.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Please show me where Apple recommends a full charge and discharge once a month please... maybe 10 years ago when batteries were nicad.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/maximizing-performance/

Right from apple... store at 50% long term...

How many discussions on li-ion batteries does it take to get the right information?

This is as funny as track vs. battery.

Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Please show me where Apple recommends a full charge and discharge once a month please... maybe 10 years ago when batteries were nicad.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/batteries/maximizing-performance/
> 
> ...


Ha, ha Greg,

This reminds me of the good old days when you took Aristocraft to task whenever you thought they posted BS.

The Apple article you linked to and the 50% charge recommendation applies if you *store* your Mac long term.

That is not what is being talked about.
When using the Mac regularly Apple recommends one calibrates it every month or two.
Calibration invoves charging up the battery and then discharging it completely until the Mac goes to sleep. That's what we are talking about
https://support.apple.com/kb/PH11078?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US

Applies to all MacBooks except the very latest ones that have a non-removable battery.

Knut

PS: I took exception to the earlier comments to keep the battery between 50 and 80% charged.
Never heard that before, at least for the Mac, and I have users at both extremes - one that keeps the Mac plugeed in pretty much all the time and the battery at 100%, the other who runs looking for her power brick in a panic regularly because the low battery warning pops up on the screen. 
Both have had their Macs for over four years with no issues either battery related or otherwise.


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

*Apple batteries*

If there is one thing that gets me upset with Apple it is battery life. My experience with the MacBook Pros (Retina - now 15" - and the 17") is that I have never had any battery problems with either of them. The 17 "has a user replaceable battery but there are at least two versions of the 17" each using a different battery. I have used them and recharge them frequently and I have left them sitting in a closet for months and has not seemed to make any difference and when I have called tech-support they do not seem to care how often or how much they are charged.

Both are still under AppleCare plus so at least I can call Apple 24/7/365 for as much support as I may desire.

The iPads in my opinion are a crapshoot when it comes to batteries. The iPad 1 and iPad 2 have never had any noticeable battery problems. The iPad 4 and Mini's have been fine and the Airs 1 & 2 are too new to have have any problems.

I'm the other hand we paid Apple for a new battery for my wife's iPad 3 a couple of weeks ago and within a week I finally got Apple to replace the battery in an iPad 3 that I bought refurbished several months ago. That iPad was shipped direct from Hong Kong to us but still had a totally discharged battery when I took it out of the box. There was no charge because it was still under the original warranty and it was under apple care plus but it took a long time to get Apple to finally replace it.

During the same timeframe Apple replaced my daughter in law's iPhone 5C because of a cracked screen. AppleCare had not expired yet so there was no charge.

My own iPhone 5 has had a crappy battery from the day I purchased it. Apple finally replaced the battery and I managed to not have to pay for it but the new battery was worse than the old one. Now since the AppleCare has expired I would have to pay Apple to even talk to them just to hear them tell me that for another $80 they will replace the two weeks old battery.

Instead I will have my son-in-law replace the battery for about 20 bucks. I told Apple I screwed up by not throwing the **** thing on the concrete while it was still under AppleCare plus.

Actually (at least with iPad 3s) regardless of what is said, I have no doubt that they do not replace the battery (because it is hot glued in) but instead replace the device even when supposedly they are replacing the battery. 

I have had many conversations with Apple tech support and eventually they always end up telling me to plug the device in and leave it plugged in (at least with the iOS devices).

Even with my erratic charging habits and my wife's tendency to leave her stuff plugged in all the time her devices always seem to have a longer battery life than mine.

I think there is a tremendous variety and the training different Apple tech reps are receiving. Many impress me as very knowledgeable while others tell me things I know absolutely not to be true.

I get better tech-support for my Mac Mini server that I do for the other Mac minis and MacBook Pros. I also (in my opinion) get far better service for the Mac minis and MacBook Pros than I do for the iOS devices.

In a way I should not complain in that I used to pay IBM $500 a year for a service contract on my P80 portable and almost invariably I had to buy replacement hard drives for the IBM PC's, XT's, AT's etc. every year.

I don't question what anyone else may say about Apple batteries - after all I'm still the guy who just plain hates batteries.

Jerry


----------



## riderdan (Jan 2, 2014)

I work for a very large software firm (that you've probably never heard of unless you're a sys admin) and have a mix of stuff--Macs for personal use, a Linux machine for work, various Windows virtual machines for work and play. I also have a mix of trains: LGB, Bachmann, HLW, Aristo. I owned a 1931 Model A, and I'm attending McPherson College's Auto Restoration program (part time)

But to answer the topic of this thread: if you are in a "hobby" (computers, or trains, or cars) to make money or as an "investment," my personal opinion is that you're doing it wrong


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jerry,

I think the basic problem is that the battery technology has fallen behind the rest of the technology.
In general components are getting smaller, faster and more capable - manufacturers need to stay competitive so they come up with thinner and more capable devices but the battery technology has not kept pace.
Take a look at the latest MacBook Pro -the battery takes by far the most room inside the case.









The only cellphone I have that has a decent battery life is an old Nokia.
But it is at least twice as thick as the iphones and also has a much smaller screen, so the battery has more capacity and power to run that phone is less since most of the power drain is the screen.

Knut


----------



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

krs said:


> Jerry,
> 
> I think the basic problem is that the battery technology has fallen behind the rest of the technology.
> 
> Knut


Hi Knut,

I agree. 

I also suspect that just as a van with 7 or 8 passengers and luggage will get worse mileage than when empty, an iOS device with maximum memory, a lot of apps (used or not) and perhaps a lot of photos will get worse battery life than the same iOS device with minimum memory, few apps, few photos and little music.

In the past I used to buy maxed out iOS devices but, at least with the iPhones, I intend to go with minimum memory and I may even move away from smart phones entirely.

At $10 a month, a cellular iPad makes more sense than iPhones that are slowly becoming the size of an iPad.

It has become time for me to reevaluate the cost and value of future portable phones. I think I want something that is so small that no one even notices that I am wearing or carrying it.

Jerry


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Yeah,
I just went with a small cellphone - use it as a phone 99% of the time, the occasional text and it comes in handy as an alarm clock.
But that's it.
Battery is good for at least a week between charges.

Knut


----------

