# Soldering jumper wires



## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm thinking about doing this just to be sure. I'm already using split jaw clamps, but want to try to avoid as many pitfalls as possible. I have soldered various things for many years but never anything as heavy as the rails. I have a basic radio shack 20/40 watt unit. First, will that cut it? Next, do you remove the ties on the end or is melting even an issue? How much slop for rail expansion? And finally, solid or stranded and what gauge? Any other comments welcome and appreciated.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, won't cut it... big old fashioned iron 250 watts, or better yet resistance soldering unit. Melting is DEFINITELY an issue. 

I have sectional track, left a gap the thickness of a credit card, but laid rails in 75 degree weather. Solid wire, stranded has too much surface area to be attacked. 

leave a loop or kink in the wire to allow the rails to move a bit without putting pressure on the soldered joint, which is weak. 

Greg


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

I solder with the same 20/40 unit you have but I don't use the soldering probe. Instead, I use the resistance of the rail to generate the head necessary. I have found that if the rail is clean and you can get a good connection it will heat to soldering temperature in about 6-8 seconds without melting the ties. I use a small gauge speaker wire from radio shack for jumpers but remember to leave a bow in the wire to allow the rail to move. I generally leave about a 1/16-1/8" gap for expansion. Seems to work for me so far. I have a short vid I can send of the process.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the 325 watt Weller gun to solder fast to the rails, and I found that it was actually slow unless I cleaned the rails by wire brushing, then add solder flux (rosin, not acid) and then it would solder fast. 
I keep a wet rag close by to cool off the rail, but start 6 inches away and slowly slide the wet rag towards the new joint to lessen the heat to the ties. 
If cooled fast, the solder joint will fail and you can tell as it will not be shiny and smooth!!


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By gra2472 on 03 Oct 2012 10:42 PM 
I solder with the same 20/40 unit you have but I don't use the soldering probe. Instead, I use the resistance of the rail to generate the head necessary. I have found that if the rail is clean and you can get a good connection it will heat to soldering temperature in about 6-8 seconds without melting the ties. I use a small gauge speaker wire from radio shack for jumpers but remember to leave a bow in the wire to allow the rail to move. I generally leave about a 1/16-1/8" gap for expansion. Seems to work for me so far. I have a short vid I can send of the process. 

Yes please do.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

So even with clamps, leave a small gap between rails? I was assuming with clamps the rails would not move at the joint but would just buckle out at a curve for the expansion. No?

So much to learn and so little time......


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes buckling out will cause either gage problems or a kink in your curve. 

I live in a mild climate, laid rail about 75, no kinks up to 100. 

Greg


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

Here is the short video I made showing my soldering process. It's not perfect and it is still an experimental process but it seems to work very well so far.





Garrett


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Over 10 years ago I was able to do all the joints on about 350 feet of track in one week-end. I soldered jumper wires on all the rail joints I used a method that a professional model railroad builder had posted on one of the lists (I think it was the old LSOL) it is easy and it works...here is a how-to....

*http://4largescale.com/trains/P20.htm*


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Greg, 

So this brings up a question in my mind, why even use clamps? If I do the jumper wire for my DC solution, why not just use the standard aristo connectors and forget the clamps and their expense? Just trying to understand all the dynamics because I want to solve as many potential problems in the beginning to minimize the 'messing' with later. 

Mickey


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 04 Oct 2012 09:59 AM 
Greg, 

So this brings up a question in my mind, why even use clamps? If I do the jumper wire for my DC solution, why not just use the standard aristo connectors and forget the clamps and their expense? Just trying to understand all the dynamics because I want to solve as many potential problems in the beginning to minimize the 'messing' with later. 

Mickey 

Exactly! Who needs them or their expense? Certainly not me. They would have increased the price of my track by more the 50%.

These were done using a 325 watt Weller gun purchased at a yard sale for $7. Note that there are no "bulky loops," just a bit of slack and I've not had any of these "bond wires" break at the strands. The only place I would _consider_ clamps is at turnouts and crossings to make them more easily removeable for repair/maintenance.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Agreed... please note that Todd has put in a bit of slack, and his stranded wire will have more "give" than solid. 

In more corrosive or extreme conditions, I've had stranded wire get "eaten" so that is why I recommend solid wiire, and you need a larger "loop" / more slack because it is not as flexible. 

Greg


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

When a friend acquired a lot of one foot sections of track, we determined that slip joiners would get full of mud and stop powering the track, yet clamps would be too expensive for every single joint. 

Our compromise was to clean the slip joiners, then using a resistance solderer, solder three or four sections together. Soldered together they were relatively strong and conducted very well. I could even run the sections through a Train-Li bender to get the curvature correct for us. Each of these new sections was then clamped to the next one. 

Cleaned up the track, ran two jumpers across the layout, and put a few drops of automatic transmission fluid (Dexron III) on the rail and had good connections and conductivity. 

I learned how to use the soldering gadget. First few joints didn't hold well, and I had to redo them. But overall, it was a good solution.


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 04 Oct 2012 09:59 AM 
Greg, 

So this brings up a question in my mind, why even use clamps? If I do the jumper wire for my DC solution, why not just use the standard aristo connectors and forget the clamps and their expense? Just trying to understand all the dynamics because I want to solve as many potential problems in the beginning to minimize the 'messing' with later. 

Mickey Your exactly correct, The only thing is you should use rail clamps on the turnouts and install jumper wires_* around *_the turnouts, so it would be easier to remove the turnouts for repairs, also the electrical conductivity through any of the the switches is a weak point.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Clamps are expensive and add alot of cost to a young RR starting out. I don't know how much track or how many joints you have but I have found soldering ot be a pain in the butt BUT it sounds like others have given good tips here to minimise the troubles. Why not plan to solder just part of your RR the out of the way back sections or through the tunnel sections. Murphys Garden Railway law, you will have a electrical breakdown in the least accesible place on your RR. So why not do away with them by soldering. If you have a long run and short peices of track I like the approach to soldering them into 4-5' pieces. 
Remember In the future you may want ot change your track plan around some and unsoldering all those joints would be an additonal chore. Clamps are great around turnouts if you need to pull one out without disturbing the rest of the track. 
My 2cents is to pre solder the track for tough spots and then use clamps in others.


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

Something to take into consideration... All the factory track clips i have used over the years get brittle and break down. Wether is be aristo or lgb ,they just split and crack in half. Not a big deal to me because they are cheap enough to replace. But keep that in mind in hard to reach areas. 
The Roundhouse RnR


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I can't find mention of what kind of track we're soldering in this thread. I'm under the impression that you can't solder stainless steel (SV250, in my case). Has that changed? 

JackM


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good call, I guess we all assumed brass... 

Mickey?


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By JackM on 04 Oct 2012 03:49 PM 
I can't find mention of what kind of track we're soldering in this thread. I'm under the impression that you can't solder stainless steel (SV250, in my case). Has that changed? 

JackM 

On the SJR&P all sections of track, except turnouts and crossings, lomger then about 2 inches have 12 gauge jumpers soldered to the bottom of the rail. Almost all of the layout is now Stainless Steel rail. These jumpers connect to 10 guage bus wire under the ballast.

On our bridges we solder tie plates to the bottom of the rail about every 7 to 10 inches. These plates are screwed to the ties to keep the track in guage.

Stan Ames


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes brass


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing a clamp will do that a joiner will not do is keep the rails aligned. And if using 5 foot flex rail, I do not see how a clamp can increase the cost by 50 per cent as only 2 are needed for every 5 feet, therefore, cost is very low. 
And the LGB joiners are fastly approaching the same cost as the clamps!!! Of course sectional track comes with joiners so the cost is 'built in".


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly. I have all Aristo sectional track, and many of the curved sections have longitudinal twists in the rails. Joiners are helpless against this, but clamps work. Since you are gripping the rail at the base, you need something tight clamped to the base to keep the railheads aligned. I prefer the split jaw, because it lets me tweak the tension independently to get it right. 

Made a big difference in how smoothly the trains ran, and since I push train length on my layout (50 car freights on steep grades), I need all the help I can get. Joiners were worthless in aligning the rail heads in this situation. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When I first started with a layout I ran track power. I had connection problems with the standard joiners. I went to Hillman clamps. I cleaned the end with a wire brush in a dremel tool. I put on the rail clamps and never had connection problem again for about 3 years. I was using a Train Engineer Track Side 27 MGHZ by Aristo the way it was originally designed to be used. Then I converted to battery power. 

JJ


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

My experience with the annual Christmas tree was that the Aristo joiners would work loose and I can't imagine messing with all those little screws outside in the dirt, etc. So when I read about clamps, I figured that was a workable solution and ordered 100 split jaw. Since that really only buys me 50 joints and the bottom of the box is now showing and I'm only about half way through, I was getting ready to order some more. But I just kept thinking that the clamp connection point will eventually corrode and grease just seems like a mess magnet and 100 degree days would eventually melt it off, my mind kept going back to this solder thing I had read about here. I can see where the slit in the Aristo joiners will allow for some expansion/contraction movement and with the solder wire, you will keep the juice going but I can see what you mean about rail alignment. In making my final decision, I'm still trying to understand how the clamp will allow the rail to do it's expansion/contraction thing without just pushing the whole track around until if finds a curve or something to take the movement. If you have the clamp tight to get the electrical continuity and keep it all aligned just right, seems like that would not allow the slippage, but maybe I'm missing something. I'm here in central Texas so we will get some days in triple digits and some freezing days, and that can actually happen back to back sometimes. And then you get to add in our rains are usually gully washers for short periods of time. For anyone who has not seen the pics I've put up, I'm doing a floating on larger septic drain field gravel (1 inchish) for good drainage and then will come along with the decomposed granite to get a good level, etc. I'd rather not spend another $160 on clamps if I don't have to, but if it solves future problems I don't mind spending now to save time later. Insight on the clamp and thermal expansion I mentioned above would really be appreciated.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 05 Oct 2012 04:19 AM 
One thing a clamp will do that a joiner will not do is keep the rails aligned. And if using 5 foot flex rail, I do not see how a clamp can increase the cost by 50 per cent as only 2 are needed for every 5 feet, therefore, cost is very low. 
And the LGB joiners are fastly approaching the same cost as the clamps!!! Of course sectional track comes with joiners so the cost is 'built in". 
My AristoCraft and LGB joiners have no problem holding the track in alignment since 1997, maybe in part to the way I do my jumpers.

My rail was all done using the supplied AristoCraft and LGB joiners. The track gets watered three times a day. Not one joiner has corroded to the point of failure since 1997.

As for cost, my average piece of rail is 2 feet long and there are ~300 of them. When I bought my track in 1997 it was $2.05 per foot brand new, delivered. Clamps would have easily raised the cost in excess of 50%.

BTW, when soldering jumpers for the first time, it is far easier to do three or four sections on the work bench then having someone help you (or not) take these sections out to the railroad to be put together in place.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristo joiners line the rail up nicely when you tighten the screw. I've found the tiny (insert colorful metaphor of your choice) screw sometimes works loose after you first install it, but if you tighten it again, it stays pretty well. Yes, clamps are a thousand times easier. I put them wherever it was hard to get to the joiner screw for one reason or another. 

As far as leaving a gap for expansion goes, if you leave a gap at the joint, but tighten the clamp down so nothing can possibly move, your gap isn't going to help any. 

At the Chicago Botanic, they didn't put most of the Aristo screws in at all, just slid the track into the joiner. The track is screwed to the roadbed. For conductivity, they solder a jumper wire around each joint with a resistance machine. They've started using clamps at trouble spots.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe brass is more flexible (it is) and does not try to spring back like SS. 

Maybe I'm more picky about rail alignment. 

But I can run a 50 car freight all day up a 3.4% grade, hit a 9.5' diameter curve and run the train down a 5.5% grade... 

So, when I talk about aligning rails, I mean aligning them, not getting them close. The joiners clamp the web of the rail from one side to the joiner and not much force is involved with the tiny socket head cap screw. 

My Aristo SS track varies all over from rail twist to height variation and the width of the rail head, so getting smooth joints requires something better than the stock joiners. 

Again, I want long trains running dead reliable, so maybe my criteria is "tougher".... 

Greg


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## TheRoundHouseRnR (Jul 15, 2012)

I know toddalin said that his aristo connectors have never broke apart since 1997, but i have had several in less time fall apart. They either crack right in half, or the splt where the allen screw goes through the clip. I can prolly find some and take pictures. Anyone else have this trouble??? The Roundhouse RnR


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Where do you live? Maybe you get water in there that freezes and expands cracking the brass.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There is always an exception. Many people have had Aristo joiners crack. From my experience, more have not. 

Certain batches had "worse" brass... just like some batches of ties did not apparently have any UV protection. Not the most consistent stuff in the world. 

Greg


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

I've only had two or three Aristo joiners split and I have over 500 ft of brass track plus turnouts. Almost all of my joints are held together with joiners except at turnouts where I use clamps and any place that has given be an alinement problem. Almost all of my joints have jumper wires around them and I very seldom have continuity problems. I live in SW Michigan so I have a lot of freeze/thaw cycles every winter.
Bob


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Finally at the getting ready to install track so I started to experiment with the resistance soldering. First, I have noticed you get a little pitting when trying to keep gun contact with the track. I went back and saw on the video posted early on in the thread and saw it happening there too. First, I used the green pads to clean thoses and that helped some but still have a pit. I'm assuming I'll get better at keeping contact to avoid the pits, but should I try to sand them out or just smooth over and forget it? Also started by using the RS gun and 14ga solid with a loop. The resistance method worked great and sure enough, no melted ties. But another question came up. For those that stayed with the joiners, when they failed and you went to replace, how do you separate track to get the old off/new on? Only way I see is heating up the solder to take one side off and then redo? I'm considering just using the clamps in hard to get to areas like the tunnel and of course switches. Then hit problem areas as they come up. But again, unless I use stranded wire and leave lots of slack, removing an old joiner to install a clamp seems to be a pain. Someone mentioned soldering on the bottom of the rail, but that seems to be an impossible task except those done on bench, but on site joints or redos become problematic. But maybe I'm over thinking this.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't recommend placing the gun on the rail heads... proper resistance soldering heats the "path" that you want the solder in... the video shows heating the rail heads, and then the rest of the rail heats up and it takes a long time. 

solder jumpers not the joiners... solder jumpers far enough away to allow the joiners to slide far enough to lift track sections out. 

Yes soldering to the bottom of the rail is only on installation... 

I use clamps, more expensive but works well and no problems pulling sections of track out w/o disturbing anything else. 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm... Perculier.... 

Here in the UK we don't use track power as much as you seem to do in the US -however we do use track bonding to provide signalling with location information. The accepted method here is to hard solder (Silver) wires to the inside ends of the length of track and then soft solder (Tin/Lead) the twisted wire ends together once the track is in position. Here we remove the sleepers and then after hard soldering, re-fit the sleepers. As I build my own track I have the luxury of using a carbon arc torch and brazing the connections prior to assembly with white metal chairs. I do have a friend who TIG welds his connections to his 215 Code rail -but he would be the first one to admit that he was simply showing off!!! 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a new option that no one here has ever presented. 

Ralph, did they use stranded or solid wires? 

That solves the problem of disassembly without a lot of difficult rework. 

So the silver soldered wire "Stubs" can be done before the track is laid, very convenenient. 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Greg, I understand to solder the jumper and not joiner. But due to the stiffness of solid wire and with a loop for some expansion, I can see where you won't be able to slide the rail out of the joiner to get out/in unless you unsolder the wire. Versus stranded and enough slack, I can see where you could slide it out. But i can also see more crosion and possible future failure with strands. Obviously, a cracked joiner could just be bent to get off, but the new one still needs the inch or whatever movement to get it on. I agree on the rail head so while I'm experimenting, I'll see if I can get the gun on the side or somewhere besides the rail head.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, stranded will definitely be attacked and fall apart much more quickly. 

Of course some people will have great luck with stranded... while others, like me, have it decompose in short order. 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

If you leave enough slack to get the tracks apart, you will have way too much wire and it will look terrible unless you bury it in the ballast. Plus you'll buy a lot more wire than you need to use.

If you do it this way, it is almost unnoticable. If the joiner cracks, no big deal. The wire will hold the track together for you.

I use a 320 watt Weller gun. If I want to take tracks apart and will be working on that area at the time, I just unsolder one side of the jumper on each side of the track and resolder it when I'm ready. If I need to take it apart and it will stay apart for a while (i.e., I don't want to drag out the iron, extension cord, etc.), I just cut the old jumper wire and put a replacement on when I reattach the track.

Once your track has been cleaned and soldered, you don't need to re-clean that spot to redo the jumper. All you need to do is scratch at the old solder to get a shiny spot and when it melts, you can use a screwdriver to remove it and your track will ready to solder as it was when you last soldered it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can't argue with success! 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Tod, what gauge wire is that? I'm leaning that direction for most of the connection and if I've got an issue, just pull out the gun. I agree that the loop experiment i did looks horrible.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

I have soldered all my joints with a resistance iron. At first, I left a loop on the theory that I could cut the jumper, fix whatever was wrong with the track, and resolder the jumper with a regular iron (the resistance iron vaporizes the wire I use). That sounds good, but here in So. Cal, the wire corroded so badly that it was impossible to resolder it properly. On the few times I could resolder it at all, the joint was very weak, and broke at any disturbance. Now, I cut the wire, unsolder it, throw it away, and put in a new jumper. Much faster and more reliable. 

By the way, if your soldering ability is anything less than first rate, or if you have trouble bending over far enough to see what you are doing, you can drill a hole through the rail just larger than the wire, then stick the wire in, bend it over, then solder it. This goes really fast if you predrill all the track on your drill press as soon as you bring the box home and open it up. 

If the track has been in place for awhile, it will probably be corroded enough to cause trouble soldering. You can buy solder flux in a bottle that you brush on, then solder. This flux is far more active than the stuff inside the solder, and must, must, MUST be cleaned off afterwards. The flux I use suggests a 2% solution of hydrochloric acid, but I use straight vinegar instead, which I apply with an old toothbrush. Works great. Another way is to mechanically sand/wire brush/abrade the spot where the solder will go, but that is too much work for me.


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

I use Aristo track and I have soldered jumper wires on all the rail joints I use a method that a professional model railroad builder had posted on one of the lists (I think it was the old LSOL) it is easy and it works...
First drill a 5/64 inch hole, in the bottom corner of the rail/web pointing down so the drill comes out the bottom of the rail, 3/4 - 1 inch or so from the joint...
Second take a 8 -10 inch piece of #14 wire shove it in the hole, solder it using a regular 60/40 rosin core electrical solder, fold the extra wire under the track.
Finally hide the wire in the ballast.
I was able to do all the joints on about 350 feet of track in one week-end.
The only thing I'd do different today is use rail clamps on the turnouts and jumper wires around the turnouts, so it would be easier to remove the turnouts for repairs, also the electrical conductivity through any of the the switches is a weak point.
Here is what it looks like when it's done, it's been down for over 10 years and still works great....








http://4largescale.com/trains/P20.htm


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 07 Jan 2013 09:37 PM 
Tod, what gauge wire is that? I'm leaning that direction for most of the connection and if I've got an issue, just pull out the gun. I agree that the loop experiment i did looks horrible. 

16 gauge "bond" wire (no insulation and typically used for grounding).


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By astrayelmgod on 07 Jan 2013 09:56 PM 
I have soldered all my joints with a resistance iron. At first, I left a loop on the theory that I could cut the jumper, fix whatever was wrong with the track, and resolder the jumper with a regular iron (the resistance iron vaporizes the wire I use). That sounds good, but here in So. Cal, the wire corroded so badly that it was impossible to resolder it properly. 

You are correct that you cannot solder the old wire _where it has corroded_, at least not without thouroughly cleaning it and scraping off the corrosion. BUT, if you unsoldered the end of the wire from the track that was previously soldered, that area of the wire that was embedded in the solder is still like new and ready to resolder.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By toddalin on 08 Jan 2013 11:44 AM 
Posted By mickey on 07 Jan 2013 09:37 PM 
Tod, what gauge wire is that? I'm leaning that direction for most of the connection and if I've got an issue, just pull out the gun. I agree that the loop experiment i did looks horrible. 

16 gauge "bond" wire (no insulation and typically used for grounding). 

I assume cooper? HD item or specialty electric supplier?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Stranded, 16 gauge, uninsulated, copper wire from Home Depot (at the time).


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Todd, so I went by HD today to get the 'bonding' wire. The electrical dept said all they had was the solid stuff unless i wanted to strip off the insulation, but sent me over to the chain area. There they had some wire that is galvanized which kind of looked like the stuff in the picture. It reminds me of the stuff you hang pictures with, just a much more sturdier. Is that what you used? Does galvanized wire have any negative issues?


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By mickey on 13 Jan 2013 01:57 PM 
Todd, so I went by HD today to get the 'bonding' wire. The electrical dept said all they had was the solid stuff unless i wanted to strip off the insulation, but sent me over to the chain area. There they had some wire that is galvanized which kind of looked like the stuff in the picture. It reminds me of the stuff you hang pictures with, just a much more sturdier. Is that what you used? Does galvanized wire have any negative issues? 

They still have it, but in 18-gauge, which is probably still fine and easier to deal with.

18-Gauge Bare Stranded Copper Grounding Wire


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I've been working on doing the solder jumpers. I got the RadioShack 325 gun and doing the resistance thing. But trying to avoid the top of the rail like in the video earlier in this thread because is was causing pitting, etc on the top of the rail. However, I have not found a good technique other than the top of the rail. I have even tried using some steel nails as extenders and placing them on the side of the rail, but it just does not work well. The only way I seem to get it to work is on the top of the rail and using lots of pressure where the gun touches to try to avoid the arching (which causes the pitting), but just not the smoothest operation. Any insights would be appreciated.


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## gra2472 (Mar 1, 2009)

I've also tried using sharp leads to make contact with the rail at the base, it does work but I think the biggest issue with arcing and pitting the railhead is the human factor. I'm trying to come up with a way to pass the current through a set of steel wheels without increasing the resistance too much to make it work. So far it hasn't worked as well as I would like. 

Garrett


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I agree. Trying to keep two points in constant contact is easier said then done. So far my best is putting two nails in as the tips. With the big flat round heads out and going straight down, I seem to have better luck. Then it's a matter of good hard pressure to try and keep it down and even. I've gotten to where I don't leave much in pitting, and just use some wet auto sand paper and smooth it out, then polish it with the green pads. I started looking at the new track that's been laying out in basic positioning and have noticed it has some scratched in various places anyways, and some worse than the pitting. Not sure if it was there from factory, or me moving it around, or animals, or what but it is definitely there. Maybe it will be an issue later, but just do the best I can.


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