# My Bogie Boogies!



## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

This afternoon I got tired of just looking at the new, shiny, but idle Mason Bogie, so I bit the bullet and decided to fire her up. I have never run a steam engine before, but picked up enough information from you guys and the Accucraft instruction book to give it a shot. Dang thing did great - Just seemed real anxious to get off the test rollers and run for the hills!! I am hooked! Back to the shelf, my sparkies! One question - Where is the "Blowdown valve" that you are supposed to open when you are done? Mark, of Silver State Trains, said I could accomplish the same thing by opening the steam oil drain and opening the throttle. Seemed to work fine. This engine is even more incredible than I thought! Onward to new Live Steam adventures!! 

I would include pictures, but still have been unsuccessful at posting them....


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Don, 

On your Bogie the steam oil drain is the blow down or the best that they have, since we use distilled H2O we don't get the sediment and crud that a full size loco will get so they these little locos don't have a true blow down valve. A true blow down will come off of the lowest spot on the boiler so that any crud that has settled and accumulated in that spot will be flushed out of the boiler by opening the blow down valve.


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## R Snyder (May 12, 2009)

Welcome to live steam. I've only been at it for about a year and a half and I'm having a blast. I think you will have the same experience.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Where is the "Blowdown valve" that you are supposed to open when you are done? Mark, of Silver State Trains, said I could accomplish the same thing by opening the steam oil drain and opening the throttle.
OK, a bit of clarification needed here. 

The blowdown on my loco (a C-19) is needed BEFORE setting off. It allows excess water to be pushed out of the boiler - I close it when steam comes out. It is piped directly from the boiler. 

There is a need to relieve boiler pressure when cooling down, or it will suck steam oil from the lubricator back into the boiler, forming undesirable crud. The blowdown will do that, or (if you don't have a blowdown) unscrew the water fill, using a rag, until steam escapes. 

The drain at the bottom of the lubricator is for removing water that has condensed (displacing oil) after a run. While you can open it with some steam pressure, it will blow all the remaining oil out! No need to drain all the oil - just let it cool down, open the drain and let the water drip, and close it when the oil starts to exit. 

I think your Accucraft instructions are 'generic' in the mention of blowdown. Doesn't sound as if your engine has one.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks, Pete. Apparently the Accucraft Mason Bogie does not have a blowdown valve. Your explanation certainly makes sense. I will loosen the water fill plug in the future. I have only run it once, and used the lubricator plug.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem is that after a run, most of the "air" in the boiler is actually steam, and when it condenses back into water as it cools, it leaves a vacuum. If there is no direct route for air to get in and equalize the pressure, it will seep in through the throttle, after having first gone through the exhaust, steam chests, and lubricator, drawing that oily mess into the boiler. An open blowdown valve is one way to allow clean air directly into the boiler. Cracking the water fill cap open is another way, but be VERY CAREFUL if you open it while there's still pressure in the boiler, as the escaping steam is HOT, and if you unscrew it too far the cap can pop off like a champagne cork (but not as soft)! 

If you have a means of pumping water into the boiler while the engine is under steam (either an on-board pump or a Goodall valve), you don't need to worry about opening anything, as the check valve or Goodall valve will act as a vacuum relief valve and allow the pressure to equalize. This can be very handy if you have a hand pump or axle pump. Just fill the water tank after the run, and the vacuum will suck that water right into the boiler, filling it ready for the next run.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

After pondering this cooling sequence for awhile, I was wondering about the effect of opening the water filler valve. This would certainly relieve the vacuum that occurs, but wouldn't that relief of pressure possibly draw oil into the boiler from the lubricator since the whole system is under pressure? At this point, it seems to me that opening the lubricator drain would relieve the pressure away from the boiler, which is what you want, even though it necessitates collecting the lubricant. Or is there something that I don't understand.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

No, any residual pressure in the system will be minimal after you close the throttle, and the pipes, cylinders, etc. will cool as fast if not faster than the boiler anyway. 

If you don't have an axle pump or a tender pump on the engine, you might want to consider adding a Goodall valve anyway, so you can add water while under steam and get a longer run.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Having the throttle closed all the way as it cools could allow the cooling metal to bind which would not budge without some serious strain on the throttle until heated up again which would allow the metals to expand.

However, opening the throttle a crack could as you guys mentioned allow some steam oil to be sucked back into the boiler as it cools. If an engine has cylinder drain cocks, might they be used to relieve pressure without any risk of sucking in steam oil to the boiler? 

I guess if the engine has a blow-down valve, you could open it until steam pressure drops, then shut it and then crack the throttle just a bit?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 15 Mar 2011 05:36 AM 
Having the throttle closed all the way as it cools could allow the cooling metal to bind which would not budge without some serious strain on the throttle until heated up again which would allow the metals to expand.

However, opening the throttle a crack could as you guys mentioned allow some steam oil to be sucked back into the boiler as it cools. If an engine has cylinder drain cocks, might they be used to relieve pressure without any risk of sucking in steam oil to the boiler? 

I guess if the engine has a blow-down valve, you could open it until steam pressure drops, then shut it and then crack the throttle just a bit? 



Just an aside to what Jeremiah is saying, when we blowdown our 1 1/2 live steamer, we crack ANY valves just slightly to avoid having them seize as the entire loco plumbing cools. If you close any valves "hard", you can have a real problem getting them free again. Ask me how I know.







I'm not familar with these smaller scale locos, but I would assume the principle still applies.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem isn't blowing off the left over steam pressure in the boiler or the cylinders after the run, it's relieving the vacuum that forms in the boiler as it cools. Opening the throttle and the cylinder cocks will only provide an easy route for air to be drawn into the boiler via the cylinders, steam chests, steam pipes, and lubricator, picking up oily water as it goes. The same is true for the lubricator drain, the air will be drawn in through the lubricator and steam line, and could potentially pick up oil or oily condensate from the lubricator and suck it into the boiler. If you blow the lubricator out thoroughly while there's still plenty of steam in the boiler, it should (theoretically) be relatively clean by the time the vacuum forms, but the risk is still there. 

If the engine has a blow-down valve, use it to blow off the last of the steam pressure, then leave it open to relieve the vacuum. That's what it's there for. However, it sounds like the Mason Bogies don't have them. They did come with the option for an axle pump though. Don, does yours have one?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 15 Mar 2011 05:36 AM 
Having the throttle closed all the way as it cools could allow the cooling metal to bind which would not budge without some serious strain on the throttle until heated up again which would allow the metals to expand.

However, opening the throttle a crack could as you guys mentioned allow some steam oil to be sucked back into the boiler as it cools. If an engine has cylinder drain cocks, might they be used to relieve pressure without any risk of sucking in steam oil to the boiler? 

I guess if the engine has a blow-down valve, you could open it until steam pressure drops, then shut it and then crack the throttle just a bit? 



Once one has completed the run, then just allow the engine to roll along thus releasing the steam collected in the boiler to circulate through the system. The other day we were testing a cab forward and had finished the run thus shutting it down but still was able to get a lap out the engine just on "stored energy!" You can close the throttle just be sure to open it once it has "cooled" but not once it is "dead cold."


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Don5 on 14 Mar 2011 11:17 AM 
After pondering this cooling sequence for awhile, I was wondering about the effect of opening the water filler valve. This would certainly relieve the vacuum that occurs, but wouldn't that relief of pressure possibly draw oil into the boiler from the lubricator since the whole system is under pressure? At this point, it seems to me that opening the lubricator drain would relieve the pressure away from the boiler, which is what you want, even though it necessitates collecting the lubricant. Or is there something that I don't understand. 

Don,

As mentioned, be careful when opening the water filler, as steam will escape. I use a rag over my fingers/hand. The Goodall Valve suggestion is a good one - Accucraft sell a drop in.

The oiler (lubricator) is after the throttle, so if you keep the throttle closed (a) there's no pressure in the oil pipes and cylinders - or there won't be as soon as the engine stops running - and (b) there won't be anything pulled back into the boiler by the low pressure (I wouldn't call it a vacuum) caused by the steam condensing. 
Yes, opening the oil drain relieves the pressure - but that's not the problem. It's the reverse pressure when the engione has cooled and the steam is gone that pulls things backwards through the steam pipes into the boiler. Keep the throttle closed and allow the boiler to rest by either opening the filler or install a Goodall.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

So it sounds like the easiest solution would be to install a goodall valve to replace the water filler plug? BTW, I have been told that using the blow-down valve could draw oil into the sight glass (once engine is cooling and a vaccum has been created). Is this true?


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 15 Mar 2011 09:56 AM 
So it sounds like the easiest solution would be to install a goodall valve to replace the water filler plug? BTW, I have been told that using the blow-down valve could draw oil into the sight glass (once engine is cooling and a vaccum has been created). Is this true? 
Yes, that would be the easiest solution. 

There shouldn't be any oil in the blowdown valve, since it connects directly to the boiler (or sight glass) and vents to the outside air, usually well away from the steam exhaust or any other oily bits. If there is oil in there, it means you either have oil in the boiler already and it's coming out through your blowdown, or you have a very serious overlubrication problem where the entire underside of your locomotive is dripping with oil and it's getting sucked in. Keep in mind of course that some oil dripping is normal under the cylinders, rods, and axle bearings, but I'm talking about literally the whole lower half of the engine being completely soaked in order for the oil to reach the blowdown and get sucked in, in other words, an unlikely scenario. More likely though, I'm guessing the person who told you that is confusing the blowdown with the lubricator drain.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. Thanks.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been told that using the blow-down valve could draw oil into the sight glass (once engine is cooling and a vaccum has been created). Is this true? 
Jeremiah, 
This is only true if you confuse the lubricator drain for a blowdown valve! Which I mention as this thread started with the assumption that the steam oil lubricator drain was a blowdown - which it isn't, officially. 

A post above pointed out that if you did blow out the lubricator by opening the drain, then there shouldn't be much oil in the lubricator to get pulled back into the boiler - but why risk it? 

If you get oil in the boiler, it is quite likely to cloud the sight glass - though not necessarily to 'draw oil into the sight glass". [Though some engines have the blowdown on the same fitting as the sight glass so anything is possible.] 

In summary - a blowdown valve, like the one on my Accucraft C-19, is designed to relieve pressure in the boiler and is piped directly to the top of the boiler. It is used at warm-up to flush out excess water then closed as soon as steam is evident, and at cool-down to allow the boiler contents to expand/contract as it cools. My C-19 has a separate Lubricator drain under the Lubricator for removing the water that condenses during a run. It is not designed to be used as a blowdown. 

It appears your Mason Bogie has a lubricator drain but no blowdown valve. Someone should tell Cliff to amend the Ops Manual.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Ok, here goes - I am attempting to add an image so you can all see the plumbing of the Accucraft Mason Bogie with axle pump. As you can see, there is nothing that resembles your description of a blowdown valve. the only valve outside is a lubricant drain valve.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Eureka! I was able to add an image!! Well, let's try that again. One image will show the only drain valve - the lubricant drain.








Well, ain't that exciting. Anyway, the lubricant valve pictured above.


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

The Mason does not have a true blowdown valve but you can use the lubricant drain valve with the throttle open and that will release the pressure.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

You can use the lubricator drain to blow off steam after the run, but it's not really necessary. Just be sure to close the throttle as soon as it stops blowing steam, or you'll run the risk of drawing oil back into the boiler. Since you have an axle pump and tender pump, the check valve will allow the pressure to equalize as the boiler cools, and draw in clean air or water (whichever is present in the tank) from the tender.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never had a problem with the throttle binding on any of my engines. As long as you don't crank it shut with a lot more force than necessary, it should be ok. I can see where it might be a problem in some of the larger scales, but the parts on our little engines are small enough that there really isn't all that much thermal expansion/contraction to worry about.


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## Don5 (Nov 25, 2009)

Yup, Mark, the only valve that blows down on this loco is the lubricant valve, so I will be blowing down from there. I like to get the water out of the lubricant after a run anyway.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The throttle on these engines are a very short shaft. The only time you usually get a seize of the valve is on an aster or another where the throttle is in the smokebox controlled by a long valve rod or in the middle of the boiler ator near the steam dome. On all my Accucrafts and other locos with a simple throttle, I have kleft them all closes for over 10 years now and none have ever seized in place. Not that is not something i would do with my Aster Climax as the throttle is a 2mm rod that runs from the backhead to the smokebox.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Asters do lock up if you close them tightly before cooling. They readily free themselves up when heated again.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

That is what I have been told. I would guess it isn't going to hurt to crack them a bit while cooling.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

the only valve that blows down on this loco is the lubricant valve, so I will be blowing down from there 


Don - there's no need to blow it down at all after a run. Just let it sit and cool down with the throttle closed. Save your steam oil for the next run by opening the drain and letting the water run out, then refill it.

As noted above, you have a check valve on the water pump feed so the cooling steam can pull water (or air) back into the boiler.


Posted By iceclimber on 17 Mar 2011 07:27 AM 
That is what I have been told. I would guess it isn't going to hurt to crack them a bit while cooling. 
It will hurt if you pull oil back into the boiler. I don't crack the throttle while cooling my Accu locos.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

So,
Accucraft engines, don't crack the throttle and it will never stick if you don't.

Aster engines, do crack the throttle or it will stick. (after cooling) BTW, how do you overcome the problem of drawing oil back into the boiler on a Aster, which has already been stated needs to be done to avoid the constriction during the cooling process.

Seems to be a fence and you may be doomed if you do or doomed if you don't.

How about opening the boiler blowdown valve (if you have one) allowing steam pressure to drop off. Then just before it is quite cool to the touch, open the throttle just a bit. Would this suffice?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 17 Mar 2011 09:37 AM 

So,
Accucraft engines, don't crack the throttle and it will never stick if you don't.

Aster engines, do crack the throttle or it will stick. (after cooling) BTW, how do you overcome the problem of drawing oil back into the boiler on a Aster, which has already been stated needs to be done to avoid the constriction during the cooling process.

Seems to be a fence and you may be doomed if you do or doomed if you don't.

How about opening the boiler blowdown valve (if you have one) allowing steam pressure to drop off. Then just before it is quite cool to the touch, open the throttle just a bit. Would this suffice?

Jeremiah

1) There is a difference between "cool down" and dead cold
2) Many Asters have deadleg lubricators thus are isolated from boiler
3) Accucraft engine such as: GS4, Cab Forward, CP Hudson, etc have deadleg lubricators
4) Never had a problem with the Legend 4-4-0 as to throttle being closed at end of run. Closed enough not to allow it to "run off."

5) Most of the time if one does not over tighten the throttle once heated it will open up
6) Allow the engine to "run out of steam" most of the time will get rid of any pressure then park the engine to cool. 

7) Not sure what the need to "blow down" vs. just letting the engine cool down.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

How about opening the boiler blowdown valve (if you have one) allowing steam pressure to drop off. Then just before it is quite cool to the touch, open the throttle just a bit. Would this suffice? 
Open the blowdown, if you have one, and leave it open (that's how I treat my C-19.) Then what you do with the throttle is irrelevant - so leave it open or close it. On the Mason, you have to be more creative as it doesn't have a blowdown. 

As mentioned, no-one has ever reported a stuck throttle on an Accucraft loco, so all this is pure speculation.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeremiah, 
I would also point out that since nearly ALL Aster locos are alcohol fired, they have a 'blower'. 
This means that you can open the blower control and all that will do is to suck air back into the cooling boiler. 
A benefit to alcohol fired locos that gas doesn't have. 
Mind you, the blower is normally open anyway to make sure that the fire stays in the firebox if it hasn't already gone out. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the tips guys.


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