# LGB Mogul pricing justification?



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi there:

Any explanation as to why the LGB Mogul was/is priced at twice that of the LGB Forney as well as how it compares to the price of the AML 0-6-0 brass electric ?
How is the LGB Mogul pricing justified?
Opinions?

Norman


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Trying to make sense of LGB mogul pricing is like, well... 

You'll find LGB moguls priced new anywhere from $400 to $1200. Same locomotive, different paint, and depending on when it was produced, different internal electronics. There are no differences to justify an $800 price difference from end to end, but that's the way it is. It makes no sense, but evidently it does make a lot of dollars. 

How does it compare pricewise to the AML 0-6-0? I believe the 0-6-0 can be found for around $1,000, so some moguls are more, some less. The AML 0-6-0 doesn't come with "Coca-Cola" tattooed on its behind. 

Later, 

K


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Some of it is collectability, some of it is road name, some of it is electronics, some of it is pure greed. In my opinion and the opinion of others the LGB Forneys (German made) are better locos. 
LOA


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

My SRRL LGB forney will out pull 2 of my LGB moguls and at a lesser cost to purchase. 

Of course my forney came without sound or MTS, my coke mogul has factory sound and MTS, and my other mogul has factory sound. 

My coke mogul delivered to my home was new and under $600. Of course that was before the LGB changes and big Euro change(should not have mattered for items made in china!!). 

So, part of the price difference is the sound, also the added cost of the tender with metal wheels.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmph! Value is what people will pay for something! That wonderful question: "What is it worth?" is perhaps the most asked question! Unfortunately for the legions of questioners the answer is perhaps the most ambiguous of all: "Whatever you can get for it!" which tells us a great deal but diddly on specifics! Kevin gave the best answer. $800 difference just because of a paint job?!! No thanks!! Okay, yes, there _are _internal electronics added to some which would justify a price increase. The manufacturing process (i.e. _where_ the model was made) is also justifiable_ if_ it can be shown that there is a demonstrable difference in the quality of the product! Otherwise, it's just snobbery (yes, I said _snobbery _but before the Lehmaniacs get their noses bent out of joint, I will freely admit that the Chinese made LGB products _have_ been shown to be inferior in many cases!) 
Best advice: Figure out what you have to spend _before_ you decide what you want! Then, knowing what your budget is, look at your available options. There are deals everywhere; on ebay, on-line retailers, wholesale retailers, classified ads, fellow club members, etc... The point is that prices will vary, sometimes dramatically! Once you have determined whether the item that you want is within your budgeted price range then you can proceed. If it's_ not_ is when you have a hard decision to make! If it's only slightly more than you were willing to pay you may have to re-visit your budget decision (been there, done that) or you may just have to be disciplined enough to realize that it's a _want_ and not a_ need_ and stick to your budget decision (that's actually the hard part!) Here endeth the semon.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Um, because somebody, somewhere, was dumb enough to pay that much before?

Shop wisely, patiently, enough and you can find good used moguls in the $200-250 range... Less than that, I'll bid on, lol.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

I just picked up a german made c and s with sound off of Craigs list for 275.00................


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

How true Nick, I have nabbed a few things from CL for a LOT less than eBay in most cases, some local, some not. The non-locals were more than happy to ship and take PayPal.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 24 Apr 2010 06:02 AM 
My SRRL LGB forney will out pull 2 of my LGB moguls and at a lesser cost to purchase.So, part of the price difference is the sound, also the added cost of the tender with metal wheels. 

Hi Dan,

Talk like that resulted in my buying my LGB Forneys.









I never understood how a Forney could have more traction than a Mogul but it turned out to be true that they did. 

Then I had to figure out why. 

It turned out that 0-4-0 Forneys put all their weight on the drivers while the Moguls give up some of their traction to put significant pressure on the pilot wheels. Even the 2-4-0 Forneys have better traction than the 2-6-0 Moguls but again the pilot wheels step into the picture. The Forney pilot wheels lack the heavy spring of the Mogul pilot wheels.

The result is that while a Forney may have better traction than a Mogul, the Moguls will force their way through wrong way turnouts that will derail a Forney.

Another factor that may be important to some is that the Mogul boiler is a lot larger providing more room to put electronics in it plus the Forney "tender" is a very cramped place to try to put some sound systems and speakers. The Mogul tender is huge in comparison.

Neither is better than the other. Each simply has features lacking in the other. It just depends on what one is looking for. A Forney without a tender should be expected to cost a lot less than a Mogul with a tender.

As for the price of Moguls it has always been that way. There are still several LGB Moguls I would love to have but I have never seen them available at a price I am willing to pay. If I had more money available I would probably bite the bullet and pay more. Sometimes it boils down to how much money one has available.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

the Moguls will force their way through wrong way turnouts that will derail a Forney. 
There's a lot to be said for a loco's ability to do that--perhaps even more so than what it can pull. Of all the locos in my collection, the one built on an LGB mogul chassis is the only one with a pilot wheel that can do this. (I'm working on a 2-8-0 which has demonstrated this ability in tests, but it's not yet in service to see how reliable it really is.) 

It's also worth noting that both the LGB mogul and forney can pull a far longer train than their respective prototypes could ever dream of pulling. 

Later, 

K


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well my experiencce is a bit different 
i dont find the huge range of prices quoted ....as a rule 

both moguls and forneys can be had in the 200-400 range in great condition with ease 

as always one has to shop 

i see older model moguls in good shape frequently on ebay--usually the 2018 or 2019 as these were big production numbers 

as well as forneys-altho these i think were far less in number-especially the earlier german versions 

i agree with jerry both have thier merits 

shop and there are still great prices to be had on both 

i have come to enjoy the forneys simply because of the 'one handed' aspect of transport 
i have had good luck with both chinese and german models but agree the latter are better-heavier and lower voltage for the smoke and lights-and there are other minor differences as well 

sound,especially digital can changes the prices dramatically 

but for the basic locos they seem to be in comparable ranges from my recent shopping


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a 2018D Mogul I purchased new in January 1986. At that time it was $599. Made in Germany. As the years went by, I saw it climb to about $800 by the mid 90's. It has fallen to between $300-$350 recently. It is the one with the hideous red, green and black color scheme. Ugh! NO sound. Has smoke but nothing else. But it STILL runs like a watch! This was my first loco when I got into "G".


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Is there a list of which models were made in China? I thought it was only things like the standard gauge freight cars, the 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 tender locomotives, the Porters and the ToyTrain line. 

I thought the moguls and forneys were of German manufacture. 

-Scott


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Scott, 

I'm not aware of an official list and the number sequence likely tells the tale, but there are several Chinese manufacture Moguls out there. I have many of each the German and Chinese versions, my experience suggests there is little to know difference all the parts are interchangeable, same Buehler can motors and I see the exact same wear and tear on either OEM origin. The electronics are different for sure; the Chinese sound systems are much simpler in ability and sound effects that said there were also some early German sound systems that were not all that too... 

Best way to distinguish one from another is to roll the engine on its back and take a look; it’s on the box to! 

Michael


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the reply! 

My only experience with Chinese LGB so far is the standard gauge freight cars. 

-Scott


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I find that many of the *American * style engines made after 2001 were done in china, perhaps this was LGBOA of old doing this?? 

Biggest changes of this century were plastic side rods and cast weights in place of the lead.


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I am guilty of being a fan of LGB. Four years ago I suffered a mild stroke and it affected my coordination. I stored my cars in the garage. Twice, I dropped my LGB Southern engine w/sound on the concrete floor. It wasn't until the second time that a wire finally came loose, rear light no longer works and only one small part broke off. Two years ago I purchased an LGB Southern Pacific w/sound in the Vanderbilt tender. Yes, I paid $700 for it, but don't regret it. It looks great and is a good puller. My Southern will no doubt be passed on to my son in the near future, hope he isn't reading this. I have never been disappointed with my LGB purchases.
Regards, Dennis.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 25 Apr 2010 06:37 AM 
I find that many of the *American *style engines made after 2001 were done in china, perhaps this was LGBOA of old doing this?? 

Biggest changes of this century were plastic side rods and cast weights in place of the lead. 

Some of the Swiss stuff came from there too (a friend had an RhB baggage car made in China).

THe only thing I can think of were Aristo and Bachmann made their US outline stuff in China and Kiss did the same with their Swiss offerings? So when in Rome....

The new LGB (German) stuff I have bought so far is made in Hungary, but then Marklin have been making the Maxi Gauge 1 stuff there for a while.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Michael Glavin on 24 Apr 2010 11:32 PM 
Scott, 

I'm not aware of an official list and the number sequence likely tells the tale, but there are several Chinese manufacture Moguls out there. I have many of each the German and Chinese versions, 


Hi Michael,

If you don't mind would you check the bottom of your "Chinese" Moguls? 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have never seen anything but German made LGB Moguls. It is true that on the last version, the 22194 SP Mogul LGB included a Chinese made 2-4-0 type tender (along with the 2-4-0 type of sound system) but the 22194 Moguls themselves that I have are both marked made in Germany.

Aside from the 22194's tender all the other LGB Moguls that I have were all made in either West Germany or Germany - including the tenders.

Of course Marklin will probably change this with their announced new Moguls.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By RailCat on 24 Apr 2010 10:55 PM 
Is there a list of which models were made in China? I thought it was only things like the standard gauge freight cars, the 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 tender locomotives, the Porters and the ToyTrain line. 

I thought the moguls and forneys were of German manufacture. 

-Scott 

The newer Forneys were made in China. I believe this includes the 70120/72120 PRR which came in a set, the 26151 ATSF (LGB Club) and the 25251 D&RGW.

I have always felt that the Chinese made LGB products have had lower quality control and a somewhat lower quality plastic than the plastics used in German models (it seems "drier" to me with more of a tendency to pull out with the screws as they are removed. Many of the screws holding the couplers were EXTREMELY hard to unscrew and I had to get replacements for the plastic valves on the tank cars because they broke when trying to turn them. I still think the plastics used in LGB Chinese made products was better than that used in other brands of products made in China.

In the end I am satisfied with the Chinese made LGB products considering their lower prices compared with the German made products. The truth is that for years I had to settle for used LGB Moguls because I could not afford the new ones. Toward the end the prices came down to my affordable level both for German and Chinese made products.

With the exception of eBay pricing swings we do tend to get what we pay for. Sometimes it is a question of availability. I bought Aristo B&O FA/B-1's on closeout because the price was low enough to upgrade my older non-B&O FA/B-1's to the new drive systems yet when I put the B&O's with the old lower units on eBay clearly stating the changes I had made they sold for more than double what I had paid for them. I ended up shipping the buyers brand new locos instead because I felt they were bidding way too much for what they were going to get. Most likely the truth was that B&O was not important to me but was probably very important to the bidders and the locos had been out of production and were out of stock elsewhere.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As for the difference between a LGB Mogul and a LGB Forney this will give some sort of comparison:

The loco on the left is a LGB Forney while the two on the right are LGB Moguls











The loco in the front is a LGB Forney and the loco to the rear is a LGB Mogul - remember - items in front usually look larger than similar sized items to the rear. The size difference is actually greater than the photo seems to indicate. With two more driving wheels and a tender and a lot more plastic (and German made) it is obvious (to me) that a LGB Mogul should cost quite a bit more than a LGB Forney.










Also note the plastic looking drive rods and tubing on the Chinese made Forney. German made Forneys tended to be much more decorative and have less of a plastic appearance. I think the Mogul in back is an undecorated one so it too is less decorative but at least it does not have the plastic looking drive rods.

I think someone mentioned the weights being changed from lead. I believe this was a health/safety issue and lead was dropped in favor of a less toxic metal.

Jerry


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry, 

I have three 22194's Southern Pacific Moguls with Vanderbilt tenders unfortunately all are at my shop right now so I can’t take look right now at the actual engines but have a tender here at home and there is a “Made in China” cast into same on the bottom. Not sure about the engine itself, perhaps I never paid much attention believing they were from China. I have had two of them apart in the past and I was happy to note I could interchange parts specifically the center motor block on one and drivers on another. 

That said you maybe right about the Moguls Germany heritage, however I recall the boxes stating “Made in China” too. And FWIW I also recall noting the “Made in Germany” on many of the other Moguls I have when servicing same. Perhaps there was some outsourcing overlap, Moguls assembled in China or tenders built and packaged in China in 2005 when these were released, it’d be interesting to know for sure… 

Michael


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Michael,

I don't have any facts or inside knowledge to go by but I would guess that with the Forneys being made in China that LGB may have intended to move the Mogul production to China as well. Perhaps the bankruptcy happened before the change was made.

My SP Moguls were bought one without a tender and both without boxes or instructions so I don't know anything for sure. I did check the newest Moguls as soon as they arrived to verify if they were or were not made in China.

As usual neither the catalog or the instructions say anything about the country of manufacture.

Jerry


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Hello again, 

Thanks for the pictures. I see what you mean about the side rods. My first LGB was a 2010D well tank engine with the stamped metal side rods purchased new around 1987. my newer steam locomotives are some of the newer 0-4-0 well tank engines from around 1997 or so with the redesigned tooling and plastic side rods. I notice that side rods on the 23211 locos do have a somewhat plastic look even compared to the 21211s 'though both say made in Western Germany on the gearboxes. I still consider the plastic side rods to be an improvement with the crisp detail and the more complex valve gear. I often thought about getting one of the moguls when LGB brought out the modern C&S version. The only real reason I never did was that I assumed the front coupler would not be usable on tight curves. I prefer the indoors with heating and air conditioning but it means I can't eliminate tight curves. I passed on the forneys because they also didn't have an operating front coupler and I figured I would never get around to installing one. 

I like the simple design of LGB's mechanisms. They perform well, they are easy to work on, and there is little to go wrong. The loco I mostly run now is a 22900 diesel that I swapped the rear axle for the front axle off a 92490. With no traction tire, I don't stall on switch frogs. I recently located four early new old-stock Davenports I intend to modify and run. My non-LGB locomotive is a USAT GP30 which is what I bought the LGB center flow hoppers to run with. I have come to the conclusion that it and the cars are simply too large for my space. They look great on a display shelf so that is probably where they will stay. 

I hear a lot about LGB not being perfectly true to scale. This does not bother me. I like the bright colors and could never consider weathering them. I worry about being finicky at work where I program and run a Sodick wire EDM. When I go home I just want to relax and run trains and have fun. 

-Scott


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Scott,

The plastic siderods do not bother me because they are plastic (LGB even started putting plastic side rods on their Stainz locos). Its more that the usual plastic side rods are plated or something to make them look more metallic. 

As for the front couplers and sharp curves I can identify with you on that as I have many R1 and R2 curves on my layouts. I don't recall trying it but I would suspect that the LGB Moguls that came with operating knuckle couplers (and snow plows) may work on the sharp curves. I can try it if it is important to you.












The locos I know of that have the front coupler (always with a snow plow) are the 26182 WP&Y; 26194 D&RGW and 27182 Christmas. They look a bit funny with the snow plow and large LGB knuckle coupler but for me function overrules looks any day.

I had actually bought the Forneys with the idea of using them as switchers but I found that with the loss of two drivers/track contacts the Forneys are not as dependable going through R1 turnouts (certainly not as well as Moguls).

One thing to look for with the (Chinese?) Forneys is that the cab switch has to be in the right position for the brushes in the rear to complete track contact. I also had one that the brushes were defective and did not make contact. I replaced them with ball bearing wheels which both restored the electrical contact plus it got rid of the drag of the carbon brushes on the wheels.

One option if you do not want any of the above Moguls would be to see if you can find someone who does not want the snow plow on their Mogul or you may still be able to buy one from Silvergate and put it on the loco you prefer - it would have to be one with the same front end as the ones with the snow plow. There are at least three variations of LGB Mogul Smoke Boxes, boilers and pilot wheels etc. The front end parts and boilers DO NOT interchange between them.

In the end they are all LGB Moguls which in my opinion makes them the very best G Gauge locomotives ever built by anyone in terms of durability, what they can do and where they can go.

Have fun,

Jerry


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Hello again Jerry, 

Actually, the LGB 2010D, 21211, and 23211 are all variations of the Stainz locomotives. I apologize for the confusion. The 21211 in fact has the green cab and the spark arrestor and is sold as a Stainz. The other two have straight stacks which I prefer. 

Thank you for the offer to test the front coupler. I have been sticking with the polarized hook and loop couplers for simplicity and reliability. The single hook might pose a problem with uneven track or grades but since my track is flat and I do not turn locomotives, this has never been a problem. I believe a better choice for me for a larger steam locomotive would be one of the electric variations of the Frank S. It's an outside frame 0-6-0 with a four wheel tender. It's chunky but not really that big and should do well with tight curves. I don't worry about being prototypically accurate with LGB and happily run european locomotives with my American freight cars. Right now, I need to recover from the purchase of those Davenports. They are supposed to be new old-stock (crossing fingers) and first two should arrive tomorrow. One of those two is the original variation of D&RGW #50. I thought I'd missed out on that one long ago. I think they will look alright pulling 4-5 cars plus a short 4-axle caboose. By combining four locos into two, I can get rid of the traction tire and have spare motors, brushes, and shoes left over. If I want a change of color, I can change the two sets of bodies back and forth. I have two 4-wheel Davenports and two 6-wheel Davenports on the way and plan to set up one running version of each wheel variation. 

Most of my freight cars would probably not appeal to rivet counters. I started with two-axle european freight cars but didn't like the way they bind if you try to push them in switching operations. I then bought some US freight cars which performed better but they were too large for my space as I had anticipated. My activities with LGB pretty much ceased for several years until I saw LGB's #45210 AT&SF gondola. They had combined their european high side gondola (the one with the side doors) with a short 4-axle caboose underframe. This yielded a car that was short and performs well. I grabbed six of those gons and 5 two-packs of the #40000 AT&SF flat cars before they disappeared. The flat cars were a comparatively cheap source for those underframes and I figured if one style of 2-axle car could be converted, it would work on other styles as well. I now have a fleet of 4 low-side gons, 1 covered gon, 2 tank cars, and 3 boxcars (the one without the end platform) plus the six AT&SF gons which are each about 11" long. Oh, and one short yellow 4-axle D&RGW caboose. Lots of fun. 

I will soon have more room to work with so I have been buying the 15" long US freight cars again. It started with LGB's freelance AT&SF covered hopper. Then a Sumpter Valley bulkhead flat and is growing from there. Oops! Sumpter Valley articulated locos will still be out of the question, however. 

-Scott


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Scott,

No argument from me. My favorite coupler by far is the LGB Hook and Loop.

Like you I had a problem with two axle rolling stock. I replaced my LGB European coaches and their Stainz locos for the US Stylized Stainz with the shorty US coaches with 4 axle coaches.

What some folks do not realize/appreciate is that sometimes what looks nice and may be more prototypical and what works best are often very dissimilar.

Jerry


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

What some folks do not realize/appreciate is that sometimes what looks nice and may be more prototypical and what works best are often very dissimilar. 
(Not sure how to quote so I'll try this) 

True, True.







(GRIN)

I have considered trying to modify Kadee G couplers for hand operation by clipping the trip pin. Then drilling and tapping the top of the moveable part of the knuckle for a 0-80 or so brass bolt that I would leave sticking up around 1/8" to 3/16". The idea is to get the effortless coupling of Kadees but be able to uncouple simply by reaching between the cars and pulling one knuckle over with a fingertip. I need to get some of the new Type "E" couplers and do some investigation. I don't run long trains but I still need to make sure this wouldn't weaken the knuckle too much. I probably wouldn't need to drill very far into the knuckle since little force would be needed to move the knuckle. 

Currently, I uncouple hook and loops by reaching between the cars and pressing down on the tab near the pivot of the hook. One thing nice about USAT couplers is that they also have this tab. AC hook and loops that I have seen do not. 

-Scott

(P.S. Went back to edit this post when my GRIN disappeared then found the emoticon button in the edit window. I'll have to look harder for it in the reply box.) 
(P.P.S. The emoticon Isn't showing in the preview mode so I must still be doing something wrong. Back to the other method.) (SHEEPISH GRIN)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a mogul with an oil tender and the tender frame and electronics are from the 2-4-0 line sold as a 69232. (I know this number was for coal). 
This tender is made in China and the mogul had a 5 pin cable, not the 6 pin connector I saw on all the wood and coal tenders. 
Also, this tender had no power pickups and the whole sound system is in this china made tender. Engine did not have a chuff sensor on the rear axle. 
So, this oil tender could be placed on a 2-4-0 engine and work just fine. 


22194 is the SP mogul with the oil tender and 5 pin cable interface with no tender power pickups. 

So, Jerry you could get the 69232 LGB sound tender and add it to your tenderless SP loco if it has 22194 on the bottom. I have seen these tenders many times under $90 and at the York ECLSTS, under $60.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By RailCat on 25 Apr 2010 08:26 PM 
Currently, I uncouple hook and loops by reaching between the cars and pressing down on the tab near the pivot of the hook. One thing nice about USAT couplers is that they also have this tab. AC hook and loops that I have seen do not. 

-Scott




Hi Scott,

For uncoupling my LGB Hook and Loop couplers I normally use a flat piece of aluminum that comes with the Radio Shack plastic boxes. They are sort of like extra large credit cards and work very well with either single or double hook couplers - just slide them down between the loops of the couplers.

When I cannot reach the couplers by hand I use a table knife taped to a pool cue which works nicely.

I find the LGB and USA hook & loop couplers virtually identical and totally interchangeable. Bachmann hook & loop work as well but their plastic springs are much weaker and overall they do not work as well as LGB and USA. As you mentioned the Aristo hook and loop are very different (and harder to uncouple) plus I've run into situations where they sometimes hang up on LGB track magnets.

Unfortunately the LGB uncoupling tracks do not work very well unless you are right where you can see them and position the couplers perfectly.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 26 Apr 2010 05:39 AM 
There is a mogul with an oil tender and the tender frame and electronics are from the 2-4-0 line sold as a 69232. (I know this number was for coal). 
This tender is made in China and the mogul had a 5 pin cable, not the 6 pin connector I saw on all the wood and coal tenders. 
Also, this tender had no power pickups and the whole sound system is in this china made tender. Engine did not have a chuff sensor on the rear axle. 
So, this oil tender could be placed on a 2-4-0 engine and work just fine. 


22194 is the SP mogul with the oil tender and 5 pin cable interface with no tender power pickups. 

So, Jerry you could get the 69232 LGB sound tender and add it to your tender-less SP loco if it has 22194 on the bottom. I have seen these tenders many times under $90 and at the York ECLSTS, under $60. 

Hi Dan,

I already had a spare LGB Mogul Tender to use with the SP tender less Mogul. I watch for spare LGB Mogul tenders on eBay and use them with several LGB locos that did not come with tenders. Previously I had purchased a quantity of the 69232 tenders to get the sound units for LGB 2-4-0's that did not come with sound systems then I sold most of the tender shells which provided me with spare wheels and electrical components with the buyers getting kit-bashing material. I was surprised to find that the sound board that came with the SP Mogul was not the same as the one with the 69232 tender. I had hoped it was a better sound system but it sounds the same to me. I thought it was strange that LGB made a special sound board for such a small percentage of their 2-4-0/0-4-0s.

Apparently LGB used the tender from the 22232 Great Northern 0-4-0 with the SP Mogul.

One difficulty in working with the 69232 tenders is that they do not come with regular LGB wheels but rather the small wheel diameters. It is possible to put the larger wheels on them but there is no way to attach brush contacts and ball bearing wheels would be more difficult to install. At least the Mogul tenders come with regular wheels and are much easier to put ball bearing wheels on them (plus they look to me much more size proportioned to the Mogul). I've seen some photos of tenders similar to the SP Mogul's and apparently it was not uncommon for smaller tenders to be used with some locos.

You answered a question I was wondering about regarding the chuff sensor on the SP Mogul.

My intention with the SP Moguls was to put decoders into them but that gets more complicated if I have to put a 55027 decoder into the Mogul and then buy another 55026 decoder for the tender where it is hard for me to justify an expensive decoder for an inexpensive sound system.

One of the SP Moguls has bee laying on my layout in pieces for months while I figure out what to do with it.

Jerry


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Jerry, 

I to can validate that there is know chuff sensor on the SP Mogul's... 

I have several Moguls laying in pieces too, I bought them for parts or fixer's, looks like they'll see the rails again soon. 

Michael


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

you know in looking at the 'justification' aspect


 


its simple-moguls cost what thye cost-because people pay it


moguls were the top of the food chain for US offerings for decades-one of the most widely sold-and presumably desired engines for narrow guage offered by the premier in  teh market for many years


germany and it labor and exchange make for more expensive items


the quality also is a factor


why the forney is less-even those from germany-because they priced it that way-


 


but as i recall a non sound german mogul was about 450 for a long time-and the orignal srrl versions were just about the same when originally offered-the sound forneys were also priced about the same as sound moguls of the day


but things began to level out-toward the end both german forneys and moguls were closely priced


 and i refer to street prices at the big disounter sellers not retail 


then competition required a strategy to lower prices-and manufacture moved to china and there were some- relative to german made items-some very competive prices-the forney-the genesis imho wasa a steal-  


the german porter with decoder was also about 100 at one time


 my point is that these may have all been 'loss leaders'-or had sufficeintly returned on the original molds to allow better pricing


i dont pretned to understand LGB marketing guys-but i guess thatthe foreny and genny were examples of grabbing some sector of the market with an affordablquality engine to lead into the program





 


i think this is why the forney was offered in at least 2 sets-





one thing i feel-i love my moguls still-to me they are a perfect practical size for narrow guage short consisits and smaller radius-they run so nicely ( as do the forneys -which i also love)


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 26 Apr 2010 02:12 PM 


you know in looking at the 'justification' aspect





its simple-moguls cost what thye cost-because people pay it


moguls were the top of the food chain for US offerings for decades-one of the most widely sold-and presumably desired engines for narrow guage offered by the premier in teh market for many years


germany and it labor and exchange make for more expensive items


the quality also is a factor


why the forney is less-even those from germany-because they priced it that way-





but as i recall a non sound german mogul was about 450 for a long time-and the orignal srrl versions were just about the same when originally offered-the sound forneys were also priced about the same as sound moguls of the day


but things began to level out-toward the end both german forneys and moguls were closely priced


and i refer to street prices at the big disounter sellers not retail 


then competition required a strategy to lower prices-and manufacture moved to china and there were some- relative to german made items-some very competive prices-the forney-the genesis imho wasa a steal- 


the german porter with decoder was also about 100 at one time


my point is that these may have all been 'loss leaders'-or had sufficeintly returned on the original molds to allow better pricing


i dont pretned to understand LGB marketing guys-but i guess thatthe foreny and genny were examples of grabbing some sector of the market with an affordablquality engine to lead into the program








i think this is why the forney was offered in at least 2 sets-





one thing i feel-i love my moguls still-to me they are a perfect practical size for narrow guage short consisits and smaller radius-they run so nicely ( as do the forneys -which i also love)


This is a big part of why I have problems spending huge amounts on locomotives. Doesn't matter whether they are new or used. I "remember" when Aristo FA-s and U-boats were in the $75 to $90 range. I bought my LG&B Yellow Mogul for $350 new with the LGB Frequent Buyers Club card. I bought my first USAT diesel (Gp-7/9?) for $90 at the train show in Springfeild Mass directly from Charles Ro. I bought my first Dash-9 new from Trainworld in Brooklyn for $200, never mind it was the wrong roadname inside the box. I recently contacted someone on Craigslist about some new and used trains adn track and she wanted full retial for used trains and track. Fully admitted that they had been bought between 12 & 8 years ago and was surprised I was upset that she was asking new pricing or better for most everything. No thanks. 

I think I have 2 LGB moguls currently? What I saved on the LG&B I paid full retail on the Pennsy. I think I've got two Forney's too? The LG&B one and the newer Pennsy one. Paid Full price less my discount at the store I worked at for that one but got the newer Pennsy one in Trainworld's clearance of those sets without track and transformer. 

Chas


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

agreed


but i look back in older mags from the early and mid 90s-and actually the prices are far less than they were-not only in actual but adjusted prices


and


i learned some time ago that for the most part-trains are not a future investment- 


i saw this simply with my old original n scale from the late 60's-old Atlas and Rapido and Minitrix






japanese technology and fine scale modeling, as well as improved printing made them crude and only desirable as nostalgia-so i updated and dont run the old stuff-it looks bad and runs unsatisfactorily compared with new items


yet th old ones are still perfectably servicable-but the engines of today run like swiss watches






i recognize this may also be the case with LGB-while they are quality-and i dont anticipate future quality as being better-


technology may well be-as well as paiting and fidelity to scale


i already see that the huge hoard of LGB which I own (and still love) may well go the way of Rapdio


we seem to be entering a new era of F scale and fidelity as well as superior detail and amazing features -






as the simpleton in residence-i enjoy analog-like when i was a kid-and i enjoy the toy train set aspect-whcih is why LGB rings my bell


but i have no misunderstanding that a bachman shay or accucraft or any other modern offering has many more details and features-like working class lights etc- that will make LGB look cruder still as time goes by-when i saw lionel legacy or heritage (or whatever the gorgeous o scale things offered with every conceivable gizmo's are called) -uncoupling, sounds, lights, sybch or fan driven smoke  the whole deal-i am very clear how out of date things become (but i wouldnt relish repairing something so complex either) 






so that is why i have always bought at the low end on close outs-not that i have not spent a fortune-just didnt pay retail-and my toys r still running 


but as prices go up -its interesting


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Here's another model to add to the Made-in-China list. The Morton Salt Davenport switcher arrived today. The label on the box says quite plainly, Made in China. I wonder if any European models got transferred. 

-Scott


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I was able to add a single axle/wheel pickup on the 69232 tender. 

I tied the power to the cable at the rear of the tender at the little board that is used for powering a trailing car. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/danpierce/69232AxelPower.JPG 

I did have to slightly modify the 63193, and use a short screw to mount it.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 28 Apr 2010 05:20 AM 
Jerry, I was able to add a single axle/wheel pickup on the 69232 tender. 

I tied the power to the cable at the rear of the tender at the little board that is used for powering a trailing car. 

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/danpierce/69232AxelPower.JPG 

I did have to slightly modify the 63193, and use a short screw to mount it. 

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the photo. You and I seem to think alike but you succeeded where I failed. I too had thought of that method but when I tried it, it did not occur to me to position it the way that you did. I'll have to look at it again.

I learned to like the stubby 2-4-0's but I have always wished that LGB had offered a motorized tender for them as they did for the Stainz and related locos. For me six track contacts has always been marginal in terms of not getting stuck on a piece of dirty track. It would have been nice if LGB or someone else had offered a small ball bearing wheel-set that worked with the 2-4-0 tenders. The extra drag of carbon brushes makes a big difference when I am trying to drive a train up the 10% ramp to the garage and even steeper ramp from the lower deck to the upper deck - especially when there is no motorized tender to assist with the pull. 
Even so the extra two track contacts would be a big help.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Going back to the pricing justification issue - I had come to several conclusions several years ago (as applies to me and my large scale purchases):

1. I am not getting any younger. I was around 50 when I got into this hobby and I am now 65. My health is not near as good as it was 15 years ago and I don't know how many more years I will have that I will be physically able to enjoy the hobby and do the work to keep it up. Every year I put off buying something will be a year forever lost of enjoying that something.

2. The storage and operating environment of my layouts are such that the ability of trains to handle temperature and humidity changes has become my first priority. LGB stands above all others in this category. This also has a direct bearing on any future anticipated resale value.

3. Nothing we buy will ever have any assurance of its future resale value or way to estimate the relationship between past, current and future price levels.

4. I know of no other hobby that has such a low cost of participation. 

Take a loco (any brand, any model) and then figure the price you pay for it. Lets say a used LGB Mogul for $500.

Then estimate the minimum number of years you think you will have it. Lets say at least 10 years.

Then subtract the lowest price you think you may eventually sell it for. Lets say $200 for that Mogul (this brings your net cost to $300)

Then divide that by the 10 years you will have enjoyed it. This brings your cost per year to $30.

Then divide that by how many hours you think you will use it (not counting the enjoyment of just owning it) we will say just 1 hour per month. 

$30 per year divided by 12 hours per year means that your LGB Mogul will cost you an estimated $2.50 per hour to run. (at 10 hours a month this would drop to only 25 cents per hour)

Most likely these estimates are ridiculously conservative. In truth it is much more likely that it will cost less than $1.00 per hour to run that LGB Mogul. 

I still run LGB 2018D Moguls that I bought used up to 15 years ago and I doubt any of my LGB Moguls would sell for less than 75% of what I've paid for them over the years. In truth if they did not sell for a dime I would still consider them to have been a good investment because they and the rest of my trains have kept me happy at home at a far lower cost than any other hobby would have cost me over the same time period. 
What am I going to do today? I'll probably spend most of the day working on the layout and running LGB 0-4-0's, 2-4-0's and 2-6-0's. Tomorrow I will probably be running Aristo FA/B-1's and E-8's. What will it cost me? Perhaps 10 cents for the electricity.

How much does having fun cost and how much is it worth and how much can we afford? Everything is relative.

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

I have always felt my LGB moguls were worth what I paid for them. My original 2019S cost me an "A" on a biology test (when my average grades in that class were in the C-D range). That was a real struggle, but I've always felt it was worth it. That mogul also came back across the Atlantic on the Concorde in 1991. My parents impulsively purchased the loco in Amsterdam (for about double what it was going for in the US) on their 25th wedding anniversary trip. They gave it to me on Christmas morning when I was 14. I still have a video of me opening it. 

My second Mogul cost me a 2-4-0 with sound plus about $50 for rehab at LGBoA. Plus my time to clean her up. I sold her to a cousin (plus track and a train) for $500. 

While my interests have moved more to the 1/29 size, I have always felt the LGB mogul was "worth it".


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 28 Apr 2010 08:59 AM 
Jerry,

While my interests have moved more to the 1/29 size, I have always felt the LGB mogul was "worth it". 


Hi Mark,

When it comes to locomotive types a Mogul would have been one of my last choices. It has never been the mogul type that appealed to me but rather the bullet proof performance of the LGB Mogul that has made it the best runner on my layouts. All things considered the LGB Mogul is (in my opinion) without peer when it comes to running on challenging layouts like mine. 

Actually if I admitted there was a better all around loco it would have to be the LGB Stainz but that is a different category entirely due to its size and companion rolling stock. The LGB Mogul is large enough for me to imagine it running on either narrow gauge or standard gauge mainline railroads.

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Talking about Moguls, the 2-6-0 was a mainstay of my favorite railroad, the New Haven. Several 2-6-0s lasted for 50 years in service. Apparently, when the New Haven was considering power in the late 1890s, the 2-8-0s they had were too slow to work in between the fast passsenger train schedule, so they opted for 63" driver 2-6-0s for freight service. This was a decision that the NH would soon regret when steel freight cars and the increase in traffic during WW1 swamped the NH. The NH soon ordered some 2-8-2s but ultimately ended up with 2-10-2s and 4-8-2s for heavy freight and high speed freight respectively.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 29 Apr 2010 08:09 AM 
Jerry,

Talking about Moguls, the 2-6-0 was a mainstay of my favorite railroad, the New Haven. Several 2-6-0s lasted for 50 years in service. Apparently, when the New Haven was considering power in the late 1890s, the 2-8-0s they had were too slow to work in between the fast passenger train schedule, so they opted for 63" driver 2-6-0s for freight service. This was a decision that the NH would soon regret when steel freight cars and the increase in traffic during WW1 swamped the NH. The NH soon ordered some 2-8-2s but ultimately ended up with 2-10-2s and 4-8-2s for heavy freight and high speed freight respectively. 


Hi Mark,

I suspect the Moguls and Consolidations were the most useful early freight and sometimes passenger early steam locos. While they tend to be thought of as narrow gauge in my mind my Moguls are main line locomotives. I found it interesting when several years ago I was looking at a Mogul at the Eureka Springs Railroad (Arkansas) and found their mogul has blind drivers. It too has the wheels spaced for mainline railroading.

LGB was brilliant in coming out with their Mogul. It is perfect for running through the sharpest curves and even the dreaded "S" curves from a mainline through a R1 turnout and immediately curved again into sidings. Add to that its ability to manage the sharp humps and dips of ramps and you come up with the reason why I ended up replacing so many other locos with LGB Moguls.


Annies to the left, Moguls and 0-4-0's center right and Consolidations to the right












A few years later the Annies and Consolidations were gone (replaced with LGB Moguls and LGB 0-4-0's) because of the frequent derailments of the Annies and Consolidations due to their rigid frames that could not handle the sharp curves, humps and dips of the my contortionist layout.












This is not to suggest anything against the Annies and Consolidations. They found very good new homes where the owners are very happy with them.

Jerry


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## Chompers (Jan 8, 2008)

My grandfather purchases a C&S Mogul with sound for me in 1995. It has been with me ever since. I have put well over 1000 hours on it easily, and it has stood the test of time with outstanding power and ruggedness. What can i say? It stood up to everything a 4 year old engineer could throw at it (literally). 
I do not know what my Grandfather payed for the engine, but over the course of 15 years the only replacement part i have put into the engine have been: 
2 idoler gears 
1 smoke unit 
1 light bulb. 

That is it. Possibly $15.00 worth of parts. This is quite simply outstanding, and commendable engineering. 
My Bachman spectrum mogul, on the other hand, needs an entire new drive train (after 3 years and very few hours); cheap price-but horrible engineering, and i'm not impressed. 

Some on mentioned cost of ownership. I have had this engine for over 15 years now, and i can not foresee selling the engine during my lifetime. I am serious about that. Even though my interest in the hobby has migrated to live steam and 1" scale, I will always have this mogul. It is just that great of a locomotive. I am in the process of converting my engine to Battery power so that it will be more compatible with my live steam engines. 

I am not even going to get into the cost of ownership of my other passion, RC aircraft. Although it is probably do to my piloting skills, It usually cost me the better part of $5-$10 every time i go flying. Add that to the cost of equipping a model with "cheap" electronics($300.00) and the price easily skyrockets. 

To me todays price of the lgb mogul seems quite justified. $400.00 purchases you an engine that will last a life time. Its mechanically simple, robust, and just an all-around great engine.


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