# Modify Aster return water valve needle?



## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Has anyone done this, and can give advice?

Aster has given all valve needles a very steep angle (like 80deg inclosed?) on my P8 / BR38. This is most likely to make RC conversion convinient. However, I do not intend to operate the return water valve with RC.

As it is now, the actual operating range of the valve handle is something like 20 degrees. That movement alone makes the valve go from closed / feed all, to not feeding any water.

Preferrably, I would like to extend the operating angle to 180 or 360 degrees, to make setting easier.

The valve seat seems to be 2mm, so i'm thinking of making the needlr acone from 1,8mm to 2,3mm. Unfortunately, I have not done any trig in 20 years, so i'm not sure how to calculate the angle. I may just set it up in the lathe, turn it down to 2,3mm, and the give it a slight taper with a file.

In case I screw up totally, does anyone know what thread the valve needle uses? (In case I need to make a completely new one /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, 

Most aster needle valves use a 60* taper on the point, which as you have found out, is nothing more than on-off. The real issue does not lie in the taper angle, but rather the length of the taper. If you extend the taper length by a mil or two, then you will get much finer control. 1-2mm of an extension is good, but anything more than that and you will have to machine a new valve seat as the needle will not seal off. You should be just fine in 

If you do screw it up, I believe that the thread (judging from the picture you posted) is 5mm x 0.5, a very common thread on aster engines. Not having owned/operated a P8, I can't give you a definite on that, but it sure looks like a fine pitch 5mm thread from experience.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If you fear damaging the original stem and having to make a new one, why not start by making a new one to your desired specs and leave the original alone (then the Aster engine can be returned to an "as delivered" state if case you wish to sell it to a collector).


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ryan, 

Since posting this morning, I sort of realised I left out the length of taper... And of course you are making the point **  ** much clearer, that the lengt is the thing that gives "rotations". I just thought that since the seat is 2mm, keeping the length of taper - let's say 3,5mm?? - around the 2mm diameter, would give the most regulatory effect. BUT - this means a very sharp pointed angle, something like 15*, if my very rusty trig calculations were right. And I don't know that that is right at all. 

If I just extend / "lean" / the taper from the point, to 2mm closer to the handle, is that taper something you know is in the right magnitude of taper?? (What angle would that be... now that much trig I definately do not remember ;D 

With my bad spare vernier, thread diameter is 3,8mm, so some kind of M4 would be my guess. To me, just looking at it, it looks even finer than standard FINE M4.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Charles, 

The idea has occured to me  Only, because I don't think it's a standard fine M4 thread, I do not own the threading die. And bying one, costs about USD 30, so buing a new needle from Aster is simpler if things go wrong.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Changing the taper on the part you have may make it useless.

Consider; if the seat in the body of the valve were to go away, how much farther could you turn the valve steam into it? Would the handle end bottom out on the body in just one more turn?  Or, think of it this way, if you grind off the end of the stem by, say, 1mm, would the stem be able to touch the seat before the other end bottomed out.

If you make the point of the stem sharper (more taper to the end) it could be that you could not rotate the stem far enough into the body to still close off the opening.

I assume you are talking about the "bypass" valve that you open to allow water from the output of the axle pump to be returned to the tender, and close to cause the axle pump to force water into the boiler.

I know people talk about finding some magic setting where the pump is feeding exactly the same amount of water into the boiler as is being boiled off/out of the boiler.  Actually, this is a very hard place to find, because the amount of water used varies constantly.  The fire is never constant, so the amount of steam being generated varies.  As the throttle is adjusted for speed and grades the amount of steam used varies.  If the blower is open some of the time or if the safeties blow off some steam, that amount of water must be accounted for.  If you can control the valve gear cutoff then you can change the amount of steam being used.  All of this means there can be no one setting for the bypass valve, it has to be adjusted periodically.

From my experience I am better off watching the sight glass and fully closing or opening the bypass valve as needed to refill the boiler when it is necesary.  On my 150-ft pike, I only have to open or close the bypass valve on my Mikes once every dozen or so circuits.  If I pay attention to the valve gear cutoff, I use only 2 tenders full of water on 1 fueling; if I don't pay good attention to it, then I need at least 3 tenders full.  If I get parked for some reason (derailment or yapping with visitors) I have to open the blower so I may have to use the hand pump in the tender to replenish water in the boiler.

With a deft touch I can open or close the bypass while the loco is passing me, without stopping.  If I see, on one pass, that the sight glass shows that boiler water is getting low, I can close the valve on the next pass, run for 2 or 3 passes and then open it again.  On the next pass I can open the tender hatch to see if I need to add water there; if so, I stop on the next pass to do so (I am not deft enough to pour water into the tender on the fly!  Heck, I ain't deft enough to do it "neatly" while it is parked!)

I recognized the engineering (both from the design "engineer" viewpoint and the driver "Engineer's" viewpoint!) desire to find the 'sweet spot' for the bypass valve, but I think it is too fugitive to persue.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Charles, 

In many ways you are right. Even with a needle-valve that allows a reasonable chance of actually setting a "sweet spot" , amount of water factualluy needed to keep water level constant, will vary witth train load and speed. (and actually firing and blower, and maybee something else, that I would not, however, normally ty to accomodate) If however, there is no chance, or point, to finding the right amount beeing fed by the axle pump, what sport is left to the driverstask of setting the valve whatsoever? As it is now, I mainly regulate the waterlevel with the tender manual pump. That however, leaves me at the same operating "level" as Maerklin / Regner locomotives, where I add water with a flower-sprinkler. The axle pump becomes a redundant feature. And more impractical than a servo operated feed-water pump. So in the end, I find that an axle pump, has to be accompanied by a valve that allows reasonable chance of finding a setting, or it will actually be quite useless / pointless. 

I have measured the space beondt the valve-seat, and it is actually in the range of 7-10mm. However Charles, thank you for thinking about it!!!! With a longer needle going beond the seat opening, possibly reaching the "bottom" before even closing, would be a catastrophy! The equavillanmt of a water tap, never beeing possible to close more than "half". 

However, the more I actually consider the possible endeavours of achieving a suitable modification of the needle valve, let's say giving 180* or 270* effective operating angle, the more I become convinced this is actually a manufacturers job. It isn't fair to leave this kind of possibly very elaborate design experimentation to a kit-assembler. Especially since aparantly the same valve-needle angle is used over and over again, in various kit designs. 

The needle point delivered leaves me the impression of actually beeing "un-designed". An completely unbalanced in-between of needle angle suitable for Radio Control, and manual control, leaving no-one even remotely happy.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

With a 1:1 steam locomotive the Engineer and Fireman do not seek to set the injectors and/or pumps to feed just the correct amount of water to account for what is used.  They run an injector/pump as needed,  The sight glass is not a single point measurement.  It displays a range of water.  Too much and you have no steam space and will probably have "carryover" (water in the dry-pipe and cylinders... a bad thing).  Too little and you risk a blown crownsheet (a catastrophy).  BUT, there is a wide range of water level between those two points and there is little difference in operating characteristics over that range (although I find I get better runs when I am on the "low" side... the engine seems to have more "pep", so I narrow my "operating range" to try to keep the water level in the lower half of the glass, rather than allowing it to be anywhere within the whole glass).

With our miniature boilers, we only need to do what our 1:1 brothers do.  Turn on the system (close the bypass) to add water when it gets low and shut it off (open the bypass) when it is back into the "range".  If you want to keep it closer to just one level, turn it on more often and shut it off before the level goes above the level you want.  That means MORE "hands-on" operating and a need to pay more attention to things, but with Live Steam, this is what it is all about.  If we just want to see the wheels go round and the rods flashing in the sunlight, an electric motor hidden in a boiler "shell" will produce that illusion.  But that is not a Steam Locomotive.  I must be the Engineer of my locomotive when I am running it and that means I must pay attention to water level just as much as I pay attention to the speed as I approach a curve!


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Let me quote the Aster running instructions in the end of the manual, under the subject "BY-PASS VALVE"; "You wiil learn by experience the proper setting which will maintain the volume of water pumped into the boiler consistent with steam consumption."

I think it is indisputable that Aster really do not intend, or describe, an "on-off" operational mode of the by-pass valve. However, as Ryan points out above, the needle shape delivered by Aster, really only allows for on-off operation, since a movement of only 1/12 or so, of a whole turn of the handle, constitutes the entire operating range between on and off.

The more I think about this, the more pissed I am getting. It's like supplying a TV-remote, that only has a range of 1m. It's poor engineering to the point of uselessness.

The fact that Aster aparently has used, and is using, this blunt needle shape, for years, and for all models and controls, actually severely  compounds the issue. Having almost nothing but on-off control by the blower is equally bad. In the case of the main regulator, speed control can alternatively be achieved by varying the degree of cut-off / filling with the reverser setting.

The worst part is, that it is not easily modified by the 90% of buyers, that build kits. 
1) You need a lathe with a collet (a chuck probably won't do), and a travelling steady. My collets lack a through-put bore, so I cannot machine the blower needle. Also, I don't have a travelling steady
2) Even if you have the machinery, experimentation is actually needed to determine the optimum needle angle. This is clearly the job of the manufacturer / designer.

Not to mention, that this actually puts the Aster kits in a different category, where you need sofisticated machines and skills.

Also, because the needle valves are very sideways "rocky", lacking axial support, at least on my P8 / BR38, determining how much I actually moved a handle (and needle) clockwise, or if the handle just "rocked", is also an annoing difficulty. This gives the controls a rather cheapish and crappy operating feeling. I am surprised Aster realeses this "feel". (Car manufacturers spend a lot of time on designing the sound and feel of car doors!)

I'm angry. I'm going down to my workshop, to try finding out the needle thread, so I can possibly make sets of new needles, with varying point angles.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I actually think Aster ought to offer a re-call program, the way car makers sometimes do, where Aster offers to re-tip any sent in control needles, with proper needle taper for reasonable operation.

I wonder if the difficulties of running Aster engines slowly, and possible "finicky operating characteristics", that some people complain about Asters, may not all be caused by the blunt needle valves employed.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Trying to measure the blower seat, using several consecutive diameter fine rods, it seems the blower valve seat might be a cone, with the final inlet hole beeing only in between 0,5 and 0,8mm in diameter. Rods with diameter 0,8 ; 2,0 ; 2,5 and 3,0 mm give the same depth measurement, as far as I can judge. This is the basis of my guess. The actual blower needle tip, has some slight circular dention around 1,5-2mm circumference. However, this may only be the result of an uneven seat surface. 

This means, one would probably either; 
1) Fit a sewing needle point extension to the blower regulating point, or 
2) Fit a new flat seat with a circular hole as seat rim, and then shorten and reshape the blower needle tip in a suitable manner. 

Otherwise, action will remain almost on / off like.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not personally looked at valve stems from the other live steam mfgs, but I remember some articles in SitG about the valve stem for a butane valve being of similar blunt construction (the photos I remember looked about the same). The article described tapering the stem to provide a finer control of the flow of the gas for burner control.  There was also talk of improving the fit of the threads to eliminate the "touchyness" caused by the loose fit (the mere act of letting go of the stem can effect the intensity of the fire).

I think this design is extremely common (across many manufacturers) because of the expense and complexity of making it a finer control, when that fine control is not necessarily needed.  Desireable by some, yes, but not actually required.  Yes, I know that Aster's manual suggests that the bypass valve is to be set to optimum place, but I know that is nearly impossible to achieve for any period of time due to the varities of the fire/boiler/engine system.

A "recall"... no, not anymore so than that Ford should recall the T-bird, because someone thinks the Corvette has a prettier color available.

If your anger causes you to do a redesign, then use that anger constructively and let us all know the results. I don't see how you could get a traveling rest into the same area as the bit and the part to be turned, since the part is so small in the first place.  Personally, I think I would chuck the stem in the lathe and use a file to produce some additional taper to the end of the stem, but then I'd have to then use some fine sandpaper to polish the tapered part so as to actually produce a good seal when the valve is fully closed (for maximum pumping into the boiler).

I think you will find that the seat of the valve is simply a standard drawn copper pipe soldered into a hole drilled with a standard pointed drill bit and there will be significant variation from one valve to the next, based on the sharpness of the drill, the uniformity of the cut end and the variation in the inner diameter of drawn copper miniature pipe, and the amount of solder deposited in the general area.  The ring scar on the end of the stem is just where the stem has rotated in the inner diameter of the drawn copper pipe as it seats.

Could the valve be made to operate much more precisely?  Probably,
Could we afford such precision?  I could not, I am sure.
Nor is it necessary.  If it could be adjusted to allow a precise amount of water through, you would need to constantly adjust it to fit the needs of the moment.  You would very quickly adopt the ON/OFF operation and forget the precision in favor of relaxing and enjoying this and the other aspects of running a Live Steam Locomotive.

I admit that I have been tempted to alter the taper of the throttle valve stem to see if it could improve slow speed operation.  I have not seen any need to adjust the blower valve to better its operating parameters as I tend to use it as a gross adjustment of the fire in just a few steps between OFF (and leaking a bit) and Full ON when the engine is not exhausting steam to maintain the fire.


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

I struggle to see the problems some of you guys are having, with all my 3 Asters I can maintain a level in the boiler every time with the production needle valve.
Maybe you need to learn how to drive you locos that's where the pleasure is.

Tony


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tony23 on 03/15/2008 2:08 PM
I struggle to see the problems some of you guys are having, with all my 3 Asters I can maintain a level in the boiler every time with the production needle valve.
Maybe you need to learn how to drive you locos that's where the pleasure is.

Tony

Don't struggle too hard... it is easier just to gnaw through the straps./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli: 
Dave Hottmann's fix for the loose fit of Accucraft's throttle valve was to add a spring on the throttle shaft. The spring tension kept the valve setting which allowed more control of the valve. He reported it worked well.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Remember those cars you drive at a fair-ground? The accellerator is actually on-off. At 1 Dollar a drive, I don't care. But if someone suppodedly sells me a Ferrari / Porsche / Mercedes with the same amount of accellerator control, I will get pissed, the way I am now. No amount of driving skill will actually quite compensate for such bad mechanical controls. 

Regner supplies two different steam conrols. One for manual operation, and an optional intended for RC, that only needs like 40 degrees to go from closed to all opened. 

Problem is, it's almost impossible to change the blower valve at all. I'm, stuck with the shitty stuff originally supplied. I'm not happy, because I expected something more. Furthermore, Aster actually perpetuates these these somewhat higher level expectuations, quite in accordance with the price tag that comes along an Aster engine.

Adding an extra groove with an O-ring or teflon packing, would probably eliminate the "rocky" movement of controls. However, no one would feel happy, having to add their own band-aid to controls of a Porsche, to give exact feel to control, even if possible.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm baffled by all this "anger". I have over 20 Aster locomotives going from the original Schools though to a pair of 9Fs. They are superb pieces of engineering which get better with every generation and I've never felt the need to re-taper needle valves or do any other re-engineering. With the exception of Lion - which I never got to grips with - I run all of them whenever I can. Just cracking open the by-pass valve for the axle pump usually works well but you still need to monitor water levels in the boiler as water usage is never constant. Similarly, we are all kidding ourselves if we think that we need endless control of the blower - when I put radio control onto my Berkshire, I used just two switched positions - full on for raising steam and part on for keeping the fire active when the engine is stationary or under very heavy load. 

(Over the last few months, I've posted some videos to youtube (search - robertyoungjohns), primarily for my nephew in Finland, which show some of them in action.)


Robert


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli, you need to chill out.  I have said here many times that Asters are not perfect.............but, what brand is??  (Well, other then  Regner )  There are hundreds of Asters owned by MLS members and you are the only one that keeps having problem after problem with them.  As far as the by pass/water pump, the P8 that runs at my track  has no issues. On my Aster engines, I look at the water glass every few laps around my track as the engine goes by and turn the by pass on or off.  Whats the big deal??  I could not tell you the cut of the angle on the pin (nor would I know how to measure it) because I realize that these are toy trains, nothing more and nothing less.  Yes they are expensive, but go out and find a machinist, give him plans that are "engineered" to your standards and have him make you a one off P8.  You will find out in a hurry what a deal a Aster P8 is, and the Aster would probably still give you less problems.


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Pauli, 
Aster has provided a visual feedback loop, to enable setting of the bypass valve.. if you watch the retrun pipe in the tender , with the bypass open a strong pulsing flow is visisble, turn the valve down until the flow is adribble , just leaving the pipe with no force..if you now set the bypass valve so the flow is about half way beteen these extremes, you are putting some water into the boiler, just try changes in the valve setting until you find where the boiler water level is held about ahalf glass.memorise the look of the water rom the return pipe, into the tender and you will be able reproduce this easily.. 

The thread on the valve is 4mm by 0.5 mm pitch.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

When running Aster engines two things can be done; 1) blower-open to the point of full draft tthrough the range of  barely open as the draft builds and 2) as per David the by pass can be set from open to a dribble.  The control factors are available and with an adequate range from closed to full open.
What I do not understand Pauli, is the need to jump to conclusions with relative little experience with this particular engine.  As with the one other post you made prior,with a tone of dissatisfaction and anger, that later became a voice of success and pleasure.  Therefore, maybe a bit more patience and running time might offer all of us an overivew of one's total experience.
Many of us face problems with our engines from wicks  to loud gas burners, etc but most try to offer a perspective of  advice seeking or offer advice from on the results of the experience.
Our experience with the GS4 from another brand resulted in a lot of time, money and energy to get it correct.  We still have the engine and really enjoy the end results.  Could the company had done the workmanship that we invested in the engine, yes.  Did we "bad mouth" the company, no.  To make it a win-win we worked with the company to advise them of the upgrades.  We decided it was better to keep the company informed  by offering a better way to develop the product than to halt any future productions due to bad PR to that model.
Finally, your auto example of a product and consumer relationship should help with your Aster perspective.  The auto as delivered meets certain design specifications.  Yet, many owners customized their rides (as we have done with several of our cars) regards performance or style.  Could the company have done this off the producton line, yes.  Does the car make it from point a to b- yes.  Are there lemons, yes.  So, you have a base line locomotive that runs (as per you post), either enjoy it or make it meet your specfications rather than making rants.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Mr. Pauli,
 After read most of your posts on this and other threads I have come to a few conclusions.
 1) You have a axe  to grind with Aster, or possibly the "live steam" hobby in general./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif
 2) You should sell your engine before you ruin it completely./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif  As It has become obvious  that "live steam" is just not your "cup of tea"  
 What you are looking for in your posts is *NOT* proto typical operations but rather "hands *off"* running.  You have been given some very good advise and recomendations by many here. Some of these people have been in the hobby for decades and yet you refuse to listen to the voices of wisdom! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif
It sounds to me like you may be happier with an electric power with a good sound system*??? *Or buy some books and learn how to *SCRATCH BUILD* your own engines. ( Something I do NOT have the time or ability to do)
 In ten years of this hobby I have NEVER discouraged ANYONE from running live steam but......

If I have drawn the wrong conclusions from your posts.(and I think I am not alone),  then I'm sorry.  
Jeff


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I began this thread by asking if anyone had experience, and could give advice on modifying the valve-needles. It seems several people are aware of the problem, but as of yet, no one seems to have actually modifyed. The reason seems to be that it is actually a modification that is VERY difficult to make, requiring sofisticated machinery, knowlidge and experimentation, to allow a good chance of success. 

I feel frustrated, because of the extreme difficulty of modification and risk of complete failiure. (Especially the blower needle.) 

And I feel dissapointed, because I expect more from Aster. And it is expectation supported by the Aster manuals. 

The fact that this un-designed valve-needle shape is standard throughout the Aster line, is absolutely stunning. 

If I can work out a solution, I'll describe it here.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry,
I have to contradict  Jeff. Most steam engines in the later days of operation were equipped with injectors. These supply almost boiling water and were mostly tuned on when the safety valve was about to blow off. Injectors don't work(?) in our scales. Very early locomotives with mechanical pumps had indeed bypass valves to feed cold water in a small continuous stream. The same holds for our small boilers. We don't want the steam pressure to vary too much. So a steady water supply is better. Most smaller ride-on locomotives with mechanical pumps are operated this way.
Regards


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pauli on 03/16/2008 

The fact that this un-designed valve-needle shape is standard throughout the Aster line, is absolutely stunning. 
                                                                                                                 

Pauli, I hope that nothing I have said has been taken personal.  I think that this "un-designed" valve that seems to work fine for all but a very, very few Aster owners speaks volumes.  But go ahead, don't take Charle's sound advice about learning to use it on your engine the way it came from the factory.   Instead, chuck it up in a grinder and ruin,...... er' I mean fix it.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I decided to take my chances, and reshaped all points. I did measure the points before machining, and they were actually 90*.
Unscrewing the draw-bar for my collet chuck, I realised I could even set up the long blower needle through the collet chuck.

I extended the taper length between 1 and 1,5 mm. Taking very light cuts, I turned the intended point down to 2,3-2,5mm for the regulator and by-pass valves, where valve seats are 2mm, and 1,5mm for the blower, where the seat probably is somewhre in the 0,5- 0,8mm range. I then just added the taper with a file.

Hopefully, I will do atest drive tomorrow, and see what difference this makes.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli
Awaiting the results as to operational differences.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Henner,
I'll have to ask Ryan for his input on this, but all the 1" and 1-1/2" scale engines I have seen (operated) at PLS running injectors, needed some attention (adjustment) during their run. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif   I have been instructed to open the injector, water valve then steam,  and close them again when the desired level is reached.   Ryan has operated many more of these beasts then I have had the pleasure of, so I'll let him respond here if he wants to. He may have operated some long enough to find the "sweet spot" on a given run, 

Pauli, good luck with the mods, just be carefull to remember to open them before they cool, that thinner taper is much more prone to seizing when it cools, probably the reason Aster makes them the way they do.
Jeff


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff,
this is exactly my point. Injectors usually are turned on only when needed and they don't "shock" the boiler with cold water. Many smaller ride-ons have only mechanical pumps. In this case the idea is to feed the cold(!) water continuosly in small amounts. Bottom line: You want a mechanical pump to feed as continuous as possible. Of course, running 2hours without having to adjust the bypass is an illusion....

Sorry, I don't want to beat this to death, but I just found this in LBSC's book Simple Locomotive Building -Tich, the boiler of which is about the size of a larger G-scale engine. He writes:
" Watch the gauge glass, and when the water rises to three parts of a glass, open the bypass valve a little. This valve should be regulated, as near as possible, to keep the level in the boiler as constant as possible; you'll find the correct amount of opening after two or three runs"

Those who don't know LBSC: He is basically the father of live steam modeling, having designed many locos from O-gauge up to at least 5" gauge, and he has ridden behind most of his locos, even the smaller ones.

Regards


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

The whole sweet spot idea is just a myth. Even when running the 1" or 1-1/2" scale engines, I normally do small movements of water on the downgrade (after the big hill that gives you a roaring good fire) to ensure a good water crown. I rarely use the injector on the 4-4-0 owned by Harry Quirk, unless I am making copious amounts of steam and have nothing to use it on! Now, on a certain 1-1/2" K-4, there are two injectors and a feed water pump. Injectors come on, again at the downhill of the track, keeping the water about a 1/3" shy of priming the dry pipe. This gives the best steaming rate on any engine equipped with a full locomotive boiler, as thermodynamics kick in and the radiating heat and conduction currents allow the water to reach ~212* fairly quickly.  Only use the FW pump when the boiler pressure cannot sustain the injectors working properly, or should one of them decide to overheat.  

Gauge 1 is a whole 'nother boat. yes, to an inexperienced hand, the bypass valve can seem on-off, but with a given amount of practice, like Gordon W. (taperpin) said, you can reduce the return flow to suit the boiler's needs for that particular run....at least until you touch it again. Now, I have had 45 minute runs without touching the bypass on both our Aster GS-4 and the Accucraft-Arglye modified GS-4, both alcohol fired, both with identical boilers (granted the accucraft one is a bit heavier construction) and nearly identical drive train mechanics. This 45 minute run was on a tank of fuel, pulling identical loads of 12 daylight cars (D. Leech) and running at the same speed of 70smph on the same track. The only thing I had to do to either engine was to refill the tender with water about 5 minutes before the end. I like to run my boilers as close to full as possible, so that I have a larger margin should something go wrong, and that is why I ran out of water in the tender....although 40 minutes is good considering that the engine can suck down a liter of water every 25 laps around Jim Stapleton's layout when working at the limit (bypass closed, drawbar HP maxed). 

I should note that both of these engines ran with absolutely zero blower while in motion. A properly sealed and algined smokebox can draw enough draft with barely 0.5psi in the cylinders (think coasting with the throttle cracked. The key is nozzle diameter in proportion to cylinder diameter and exit piping, combined with the proper height wicks (usually as low as you can get them for efficiency. 
_

I feel that this topic is starting to drift into the age old debate of aster engines being finicky....let's not go there again please, it's beating a dead horse.
_
_*P.S.
*_Pauli, 
I commend you on refining your controls for your engine, and wish you success with them.  Please do as jeff says and be sure to leave the throttle and blower valves open after running out of steam, otherwise you may end up with half of the spindle stuck against the seat due to differences in metal expansion/contraction.  
However, I feel that next time, you should re-think your approach to "calling-out" a company such as aster, whom many on this board are quite fond of.  You are sending mixed messages and failing to uphold the golden rules of Live Steam:
-If you don't enjoy it, then why are you here?
-Never let your hobby become/interfere with your job.  95% of the time, it is a miserable failure.  

Good luck!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 03/16/2008 4:57 PM

...

_I feel that this topic is starting to drift into the age old debate of aster engines being finicky....let's not go there again please, it's beating a dead horse.
_
*...*

Yes, but if you beat a live horse, the ASPCA will get after you!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/16/2008 5:14 PM
Posted By rbednarik on 03/16/2008 4:57 PM

...

_I feel that this topic is starting to drift into the age old debate of aster engines being finicky....let's not go there again please, it's beating a dead horse.
_
*...*

Yes, but if you beat a live horse, the ASPCA will get after you!



Don't forget PETA!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Once upon a time.... one person's Combination Lever became anothers Regulator and By-Pass Valve. 


The Combination Lever seemed to work fine for all but a very, very few - which many thought spoke volumes and who were very, very fond of the products.  A few had expectations and believed there was a design problem. They said, "...it is a real problem, the 'manufacturer' knows it's wrong, should have corrected the problem long ago, and done it right in the first place."   Then they fixed the Combination Lever to their satisfaction for themselves the few others. They said, "...it should work properly." 


Then along came the Regulator and By-Pass Valves?  They seemed to work fine for all but a very, very few - which many thought spoke volumes and who were very, very fond of the products.  But a few had expectations and believed there was a design problem, "...they should be designed and work properly."   Seemed quite reasonable a conclusion given the consensus upon photo review.  Too shallow a bevel and threads that were loose, prevented fine adjustment or stable settings.   So quite disappointed it was decided the valves should be fixed. They said, "...it should work properly."


Many find things they think should've been designed properly (though opinions may differ), and fixed well before.  Finding it odd such a situation should arise, some come here to ask for knowledge, suggestions or help.  Some offer experience, ideas and help.  While others just offer refrains and take an odd shot.  Pity what some believe to be helpful.


This all sound so familiar.  Might we be here again?  And again, and again, and again... ? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif   

Yeah I know, I'm just the SOB who sees things too simplistic and complex. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif  Plus I have an attitude problem - so I've been told. 


Chalk this up to just more
And ignore if you like.
Just as those who bore
Much to everyone's delight.   
 /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

@ Jeff & Ryan, thank's for reminding me to open the valves before cooling! Especially with the extremely pointed blower needle, getting stuck is a potential issue. This is also why I decided not to make a new needle out of brass. The small pointed tip could break off much easier, if made out of the much less strong material brass.

Also, with these much more pointed tapers - in the working diameter surface - gives an enourmous leverage. So a very sensitive touch is needed for operation. The picture gives an impression that the change isn't that big - but the change in taper is concentrated to the working diameter surface, just around the valve seat diameter.

In fact, tightening the blower valve with the new point, seems to have changed the seat diameter / shape, from 0,5-0,8mm to 1,1mm. This means, next time, I would start at a larger diameter than 1,5 mm before adding the taper. After adding the taper, maximum diameter of the point, is only 1,3 mm, so I have very little taper left, when closing the valve. Also, because of the seat "deepening", I have very little movement left on the screw, before the operating handle touches the backhead fitting, since I started by extending the taper with 1mm.

@ Ryan; I pleed guilty of almost letting my hobby become a job. My obsession with building and tuning this engine, is borderline mad ;-) But then, I have the impression, that many livesteamers entertain this interest at a "borderline level"?!? 

Aster supposedly sells some of the finest instruments of pursuing our hobby. And the point here, is that the fine instrument, would be correctly pointed valve needles. ;-) Without this image and price tags, I would be much less surprised / annoyed.

Also, there seems to be little room for factual discussion around Aster. I start off a topic with facts and questions, and the immediate strong response is basically "there are no imperfections on Aster locomotives, you are at fault". No wonder I "raise my voice" somewhat, in my consecutive responses, in search of more helpful advice, and defending my initial inquiry. I feel like the little boy in the childrens story,  not just noting that the King is naked, but actually saying so.

I feel much of the response to my discussion, is more emotionally based responses, accusing me of not beeng enough reverent towards Aster.

Anyway, I'm excited to do a test run of the new controls today. I'll be back!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris
There is difference between the two situations of combination levers on the Accucraft engines-  are/were non-functional (as are all the Accucraft engines vs Aster engines)and a functional Aster part with possible need for improvement relative to Pauli's attempts.
Pauli's attempt to upgrade the throttle is similar to our upgrade to our car Subaru Impreza RSTI. It had the traditional throttle body that was fully functional.  Never had any other setup and thus no comparison base for us.  Then we retrofitted it with electronic drive by wire (computer based) setup and the response was overwhelmingly better.  Maybe Pauli's effort will educate all of us allowing for better response and performance from a functional piece on this engine and other Aster engines.

There was never any discussion that would have concluded that the Accucraft non functional combination levers were any thing but that.
"Work fine"  speaks volumes of those, like you, who (own Accucraft vs. Aster GS4's) do not have the perspective, knowledge and comparative basis to make a informed discussion relative to Accucraft non-functional part vs. Aster's working part (note IMHO most Aster owners contribute efforts and knowledge to better the product based on years of experience).

As for being in the fix....the product was out there in kit form via Gordon Watson for all to purchase and apply (I believe about 50 total sold).  The several dozens we have retrofitted not one have returned to us asking for money back, instead all are very pleased with the performance difference(we offered freely all the information about the swap here on MLS- "how to" ).   Very soon Nevada Bill will be close to the Golden State, go and see for yourself.  By the way I believe you own a Cab Forward, that does not have working combination levers, so you might learn something in time about functional vs. non-functional applications after all.

The procedure and process was shared (as I stated earlier) with Accucraft for their future productions.  Whether they choose to put into place the mechanism is their choice.  They did not with the Cab Forward but I think so with the Royal Hudson.

Chris, you really need to bring forth constructive points allowing a thread to move forward and not something to attract attention to yourself in a negative way.  You do not know what the **** you were speaking about here and made a statement that at best will take this thread off track from Pauli attempt to better a FUNCTIONAL application.   I would stand by a steam master's word and work in offering "working combination levers" (Gordon Watson) over your opinion of "smoke and mirrors" any day: "Pity what some believe to be helpful-They said, ...it should work properly."  Proven to work with side by side working comparison with the Aster GS4 during numerous running sessions (public and private tracks).


Posted By Chris Scott on 03/17/2008 2:00 AM


Once upon a time.... one person's Combination Lever became anothers Regulator and By-Pass Valve. 


The Combination Lever seemed to work fine for all but a very, very few - which many thought spoke volumes and who were very, very fond of the products.  A few had expectations and believed there was a design problem. They said, "...it is a real problem, the 'manufacturer' knows it's wrong, should have corrected the problem long ago, and done it right in the first place."   Then they fixed the Combination Lever to their satisfaction for themselves the few others. They said, "...it should work properly."   "


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Pauli, while we all tend to like certain brands more then others around here (of course I would never be a snob like that /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif) I have said over and over that Aster is not perfect, and that if I look, I can find things wrong with each engine. Thats just the nature of these beast's. It is hard for folks to respond to a problem when they have not experienced said problem. Anyway, I hope that you get it sorted out and please keep us updated. No one got their nose out of joint till you started saying how bad Aster designs are and how they can't build one of their own kits.   When you consider the hundreds of parts in Accucraft, Aster, Roundhouse, and yes, even Regner engines.................you can always find a part or two where you will scratch your head and think, "Why did they do it that way?" It would be great if these engines were perfect, but none of them are. I do think that once you start running your P8 more, many of these things will work themselves out. I have noticed that on my Asters the axle pumps need to break in. After a few hours running they seem to work like they are supposed too. Get some serious hours on that engine .


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

SUCCESS!! 

That is the only appropriate way to describe my firsst trial of the new  valve-points.

- The regulator valve now has an effective range of TWO WHOLE TURNS!!!! I will even stick my neck further out, by recomending  anyone to try this out! This really added driving fun! It even makes me consider not installing my new Futaba SX. When I approached the high spot on my track, I just turned my regulator 180* up (of the 720* available), and heard the deepening, low, thrust of the cylinders!!! WOW! What a driving experience! Jees, I might ge t/ stick manual! ;D

As most Aster regulator valves probably (?) employ valve seats of at least 2mm, "anyone" can turn up a completely new regulator valve.

As for the blower, yes, I now seem to get 270* from closed to full. However, because I strongly suspect there is no proper valve seat, I do not recomend this modification.

As for the by-pass, well... surcumbstances and driving time, has yet to allow me any conclusions. remember, I now start my new learning curve from scratch... ;-)

As you can se, I started the steamup under an umbrella. And it sure wasn't the sun... and then came dusk. And then came SNOWFALL! 
I'm happy no neighbour found me out... I think I just proved beyond doubt to be crazy ;D

Seriously - try the regulator thing, if you have access to the machinery. And you can try thi by turning up a completely new regulator needle from brass. (Down to 2mm I would not hesitate this, even if you forget to untighten the valve during cooling!!)

The driving experience was completely different. I now drove a rocket under control. Driving with 50% higher pressure (3 instead of 2 Bar), I still achieved half the speed, because of better regulator control. I now feel in command of a beatiful beast!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Pauli
Encouraging test results.  It would be great to compare these results side by side with throttle range of another stock P8 engine control for speed from crawl to top flight.  Also, how the redesign holds out over many, many firings.


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