# K27 Electrical Problem



## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Bought a brand new in the box K27, 453, from Caboose Hobbies just after Christmas, I took it home, tried it out before installing the QSI sound and speaker, and I noticed that the markers, cab light, and firebox do not illuminate. Well, I kind of thought it might just be a quirk, since I didn't have one of the tender plugs in all the way, so, I installed the QSI board and speaker today, and everything works - but no markers, cab lights or firebox flicker. I pulled the smokebox front out, no loose wires, and checked the tender plugs (which are EXTREMELY) tight, and they're all the way in. I played with the switches a bit, I haven't tried the smoke generator yet, but I suspect it's all one problem.

Any suggestions? Quick fixes? I'm thinking it's a power wire from the tender to the board in the smokebox that isn't connecting? I'd much rather fix this myself than take it back, or *gasp* send it back to Bachmann and hope...

Robert


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

http://users.eastlink.ca/~brownscountry/index/BrownsCountryRR.html

Go to the above website. He is my son/MLS member and has a brand new K27 from Bachmann w/QSI. He will be glad to help. Regards, Dennis


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I checked out the website, but I didn't see anything relating to the problem... But his carrier is awful nifty! 

Robert


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I do not have an answer, but this may help.

If you don't have a copy of the electrical schematic in your box, you can get it here: Bachmann K-27 drawings

I guess you have 'played' with the switches in the tender and in the front of the smoke box? I think you have.

Make sure the two plugs between the loco and the tender are plugged in, I find mine very difficult to get together and a part and have tried to run it only to find I still haven't got the plug right in.

A multi meter would be a good tool to have to fault find your possible fault

Alan


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

That's kind of what I'm thinking. If I have to spend a lot of time with it, I think I'll just go with Greg E's suggestion and throw in one of those auxiliary DCC modules and wire it up the way I want it. My guess is it's the wiring from the tender board to the smokebox board. I was kind of hoping maybe it was something that has happened before and someone else may have had a similar problem - and solution. I wish I had a good multimeter. Actually, I think I do, but it's somewhere in the garage... 

Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

BTW, while I'm thinking about it, is there any reason not to disconnect the optical chuff sensors while I'm in there, since I'm not going to use them? 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's so much wire in the K, and so many places it could "break", I think a small decoder to control the lights is the better part of valor! 

There's been a number of failures of the surface mount parts that regulate the current too. 

Regards, Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Open the front of the boiler. You will find a couple of switches, to choose DC or DCC. Turn them to DC.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I tried that first, but there doesn't seem to be any power to the front PCB. I think Greg's suggestion is the best, it would take more time to trace the fault than just rewire it with a second decoder to control the lights. Greg, will that small decoder also supply enough power for a smoke generator? Might as well swap that out as well as reverse the fan while I've got her open for surgery... As well as swap out the silly yellow LED's for the apropriate color ones, too. 

I saw an ON3 model at a train show that used a small motor to actually "ring" the bell on top of the boiler, I've always thought that was a pretty cool effect, anyone else seen it done? The tiny 1.5 volt motor had a circle of styrene with a hole drilled in it, and a very thin wire up through a tiny hole that went up and down and moved the bell back and forth. Very simple effect. It wasn't exactly timed with the bell sound, but it was pretty close. Greg, is it possible to program the second decoder to respond to the bell CV when the first decoder does? 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Most "function only" decoders are set up for around 100 ma per output, I'd use a small relay on the output and then you switch the voltage to the smoke unit through the relay. 

I see about an average of 500 ma in most smoke units, but they can spike a lot more, so normally would zap a decoder if connected directly. 

For the bell, a small servo that would move the bell would be best. The Zimo decoder series have outputs that drive inexpensive servos directly, back and forth no problem. Certain versions also have other high current outputs. 

Give Axel a call at Train-Li and ask him which decoder would do the trick, there may be a small HO one that is not too expensive that would do all you want to do. I know it can be done, from reading the manuals, with the larger decoders. 

Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

The one I saw had a small motor, very small, actually, with a plastic disk on the front and a crank arrangment very similar to the mainroads. As he pointed out, it made the bell swing slowly at the top of it's travel and faster as it passed the bottom, then slowly again, almost stopping before reversing. I'm thinking a reversing servo would be more linear in it's speed. I kind of wish I could find a video or a picture of it. The motor he had was small enough that it was barely noticeable under the roof of the cab where he had it mounted. Hmm, I feel a project coming on! He also said he tried nichrome? wire that expanded and contracted when heated as a "bell rope" and it moved the bell way too slowly. IIRC, he said the motor was actually hooked up using the old "four diode" trick to get 1.4 volts to the motor, but I'm not sure what the voltage of the motor was. I'm also not sure where he got the motor. 

Can you set up the decoders (or the cab) to not only ring the bell but activate the animation at the same time, or would they be seperate. 

Also, in a related question, on my QSI decoders, it seems that all of the controls (F1 - F12) do something, how would I "map" more functions to the control? Shift+, I'm assuming? 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The F10 through F12 are functions I can do without, I use F12 often since it's simple from the front keyboard of my NCE.. 

Yes, Noel Wilson is on this forum and he does all kinds of animation stuff. I agree, using a disk with a pin on it to run the "rope" will give you that nonlinear motion you want. 

There are decoders that work over F12... 

Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

ZIMO supports 20 functions of which are up to 14 physical outputs and 20 total (15 physical in the next generation MX695).


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 13 Jan 2011 03:51 PM 
Bought a brand new in the box K27, 453, from Caboose Hobbies just after Christmas, I took it home, tried it out before installing the QSI sound and speaker, and I noticed that the markers, cab light, and firebox do not illuminate. Well, I kind of thought it might just be a quirk, since I didn't have one of the tender plugs in all the way, so, I installed the QSI board and speaker today, and everything works - but no markers, cab lights or firebox flicker. I pulled the smokebox front out, no loose wires, and checked the tender plugs (which are EXTREMELY) tight, and they're all the way in. I played with the switches a bit, I haven't tried the smoke generator yet, but I suspect it's all one problem.

Any suggestions? Quick fixes? I'm thinking it's a power wire from the tender to the board in the smokebox that isn't connecting? I'd much rather fix this myself than take it back, or *gasp* send it back to Bachmann and hope...

Robert
Let me see if I can help. The marker lights, the cab light and the firebox are all controlled through pins on the second row. The QSI decoder does not have any connection to these pins so it can not control these functions.

You have several choises.

1) Switch the switches behind the smokebox door to DC which ahould be labeled ON to turn the lights on.

2) Install a seperate function decoder in the tender to control these functions.

Hope that Helps

Stan Ames


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

For about the hundredth time....the small lights on the front of the locomotive, are NOT "Marker lights. 

....THEY ARE "CLASSIFICATION LIGHTS", or "Class lights" for short. "Marker lights", "Bring up the rear of a "Train" 

Dear Mr Ames, and others.....you should know better by now, if you consider yourselves "Model Railroaders" with at least a slight bit of knowledge about "Railroading". 

Please don't further this misconception any more than it is already. 

THANK YOU. 

Fr.Fred


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

You are of course correct, my humble apologies for such a clear and obvious slip. I think I need a cup of coffie to wake up.

Stan Ames


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Jan 2011 09:15 PM 
Most "function only" decoders are set up for around 100 ma per output, I'd use a small relay on the output and then you switch the voltage to the smoke unit through the relay. 

I see about an average of 500 ma in most smoke units, but they can spike a lot more, so normally would zap a decoder if connected directly. 

For the bell, a small servo that would move the bell would be best. The Zimo decoder series have outputs that drive inexpensive servos directly, back and forth no problem. Certain versions also have other high current outputs. 

Give Axel a call at Train-Li and ask him which decoder would do the trick, there may be a small HO one that is not too expensive that would do all you want to do. I know it can be done, from reading the manuals, with the larger decoders. 

Regards, Greg Greg

The function outputs for smoke units on the Bachmann locomotives that have a socket draw much less then 100ma. The function on the socket controls a transistor in the locomotive that in turn controls the smoke uinit. Because of this approach no relay is needed and any function decoder will do the trick

Stan


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, Stan, they didn't work before I added the decoder, when I took it out of the box and test-ran it before opening the tender or doing anything else. I took a look at the wiring diagram, and although it shows the colors of the wires between PCB's, it doesn't show the function of the wires, so I can't trace what goes where or where it came from. I did check the switches and they are all set to DC, except the smoke gen which is "off." I'm assuming that the smoke gen is also off-line, but again, I can't tell for sure if there is a different set of wires to supply power from the PCB in the smokebox. What would help immenesely is if I had a wiring diagram that said "smokebox PCB power" and I could trace those wires from the smokebox to the firebox PCB back to the tender PCB. Right now, if I do the seperate function decoder Greg suggests, the only logical way to do it is to just run new wiring for the lights. I would rather be able to wire into the existing wiring harness, or at least place the function decoder in the tender, and tie the control wires into the Tender PCB. 

I'm not really even sure if the cab/smokebox lights, the marker lamps, and the smoke generator come form the same power source, or if I have two or even three seperate problems. 

Thanks for the help, Robert


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Be glad to help you debug the locomotive and find the problem.There are a few simple things to check and you need to get them to work before you try a function decoder because if there is a problem it will likely repeat itself with a function decoder installed.

Send me a privite email message with youe email and phone number and I will give you a call to help you debug it.

Stan Ames


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

The "classification" lights was my fault, please forgive me. Stan was just using the nomenclature I used, and I do know the difference. I should know better. Thanks for the correction. 

Stan, I'll shoot you my email and phone number, I won't be able to actually do much work on it until Tuesday or Wednesday, I work the weekends and take three days off in the middle of the week. Thanks for the info on the smoke generator also. 

Whatever happened to the Mantua/Tyco cast metal boiler kits I used to assemble back in the 70's? One wire was plenty enough back then!

Thanks! Robert


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert

Don't know if you've already got them or if they will be of any help in this instance, but the following two links are to wiring diagrams for the K-27 that Bob Grosh drew-up.

K-27 Drawing-01[/b]

K-27 Drawing-02[/b]


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks to Stan's phone call, pointing me in the right direction, I have a fully functioning K-27! Two wires on the engineer's side plug, tender side, were reversed. 

Robert


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