# Fascinating and maybe crazy 1-1 steam project



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The Coalition for sustainable rail, in partnership with the university of MN, has bought ATSF Hudson 3463. They plan to completely overhaul it according to the theories of L. D. Porta, to make it more efficient, and to make it carbon neutral by burning "biocoal." They claim that when its ready it will go 130 mph and break the world steam speed record.




http://www.csrail.org/






Porta really seems to have known what he was doing, and his ideas have been tested elsewhere. I think the idea is fascinating and ambitious and wish them luck, but I have my doubts. The engine will still hammer the rails like any other big heavy steam loco, and the huge reciprocating forces won't change. And they want to make itI a compound too...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Maybe they'll make carbon fiber rods, if they can control that mass, the Hammer will be gone. 

John


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Not sure to what end would come of this venture but it is certainly interesting. Might want to place this in the "live steam" forum for more to comment on.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll leave moving the thread to the mods.

They claim they will pay a lot of attention to balancing, and I assume they will look at lighter weight materials. It's hard for me to imagine you'd ever get maintenance costs down low enough to equal diesel/electric. 

It's true, as far as I can tell, that steam locomotive design was more "seat of the pants" than science, well into the 20th century. Samuel Vauclain never had much luck with compounding; it was always being rejected as "too complicated" and to hard to maintain. The PRR T1 was a really interesting design, and their experiments with different kinds of valves might have led to real improvements, but it was hard to swim upstream against standard practice. American locos were designed around cheap abundant fuel with no cares about pollution, using, as much as possible, familiar, proven methods. They worked really well, but were really thermodynamically inefficient. 

By the time Porta began his work, the steam age was over. It would be really interesting to see what a team with access to modern technology could do. 

Plus wouldn't it be fun to see a Hudson like that steaming at 100 mph?


I doubt much will come of it, But I signed up for their mailing list and will make a small donation


The forum software messed up the formatting on my initial post, so again here is the organizations website, explaining the project: 

http://www.csrail.org/


And here is their blog:

http://www.csrail.org/index.php/the-plan/news


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

It's amazing how much steam locomotives improved when they had competition from diesels. 

But, none of this addresses the maintenance problem. Namely, that when a steamer is in the shop for any reason, the whole locomotive has to sit there until everything has been fixed and put back and tested out. None of the swap-and-go stuff that diesels can do.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

it was always being rejected as "too complicated" and to hard to maintain 
That 'hard to maintain' bit (as also mentioned above) is usually what kills US development. Railroads want locos that can be fixed anywhere by a guy with standard tools. 

Compounding worked well in Europe, where distances aren't so large and workshops set up a bit to handle more complicated locos. Several UK designs had 2 high-pressure cylinders between the frames feeding two low-pressure cylinders outside.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There's a really great book about the Baldwin locomotive works by historian John Brown. It's really a brilliant piece of research. One of the things he describes is the power of inertia in the locomotive business. Orders and designs mostly came from the chief engineers of individual RRs, who had practical experience but little engineering as a profession.they weren't reall interested in screwing around with things that differed much from standard, for obvious and practical reasons. Vauclain started out as a machinists apprentice and worked his way up. He was convinced that the conservatism of chief mechanics was hindering innovation. But his famous O0,000 never met with much interest. Superheating was the innovation that won out.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting reading! I still think we'll end up going back to wood for fuel and horses for day to day transportation. If I could put a saddle on the deer eating my railroad plants I would.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

we'll end up going back to wood for fuel and horses for day to day transportation 
Well, the 3463 is going to run on 'biomass', which is the same as wood for all practical purposes - you just don't have to chop it into pieces. 

Not sure about the horses - they are a lot of work. The Chinese built electric high-speed trains so they wouldn't have to import more oil for trucks/planes/etc. (Besides - they estimated London would be 2 ft deep in horse manure if the population continued to increase!) 
I can see us finally figuring out nuclear fusion - where you get more energy than you put in from smashing atoms. [See 'Back-to-the-Future II and the Mr Fusion power plant on the rear deck of the DeLorean.] With plenty of electricity, we can get around with trams, interurbans, streetcars, etc.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"If I could put a saddle on the deer eating my railroad plants I would." 

Well I don't know how heavy you are, but I would have to have something more like an elk or a moose to carry me. (Probably would only last until the first fork in the road: I'd want to go right. My mount would want to go left, so he would flip me for it!) 

Getting back to the original topic of this thread. A "Steam revival" seems to happen about once every other decade. Remember the ACE 3000? I was pretty enthused about it. Things frittered out before the preliminary tests ended, but they did serve to revive a C&O Greenbriar. I'm not trying to be cynical, just realistic. I do wish this new group the best of luck and good fortune. Perhaps they really are the beginning of something fantastic. 

Yours, 
David Meashey


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

One of the nutty things about this csr project is they seem to be proposing it for passenger rail, which never made much money even its glory days. And biocoal is more expensive than diesel. The ACE 3000 was aimed at freight and featured the lower cost of coal, and never got off the ground


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Ethenol is corn + $billions = lousy gas & pricy food. 

Biocoal ... should I start hoarding potatoes?


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