# Accucraft C25



## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

I got this big box the other day and thought I would share some pictures of the new Accucraft C25 coal burner. I haven't fired it yet, but it looks well made. They made a couple adjustments after showing the prototype in Sacramento this year, the most obvious is the change in the dummy coal load and cut down front of the tender. It looks like this will be straightforward to fuel with the firebox door easily accessible. Serial #3 ... Yea! I do like the transit cases they are now including with the engines. I will probably change out some of the hardware and give them a good paint job. Very serviceable boxes.


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Couple more pics.*

Showing the smokebox door removed. I will probably change out the micro-screws that hold it in place with standard 2mm bolts or screws. Also a comparison of the grate size with the K28. Looks to be about 2/3 the size.


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## ddrum31 (Aug 30, 2017)

That is sweet! Nice looking locomotive! Like Christmas morning for you I bet.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Joel, in your picture of the underside of the fireman's side of the cab, there is one lever blowdown, and one screw open type. I expect one of those was for the lubricator, but can you identify them for me and which is which? Thanks.

Ross Schlabach


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

As delivered, the lever valve is the lubricator drain and the traditional screw down valve is the blow down. I haven't decided how or if I will change this. I like the lever valves, but could make a tool for use with the blow down valve.

Right now, I'm just glad the C25 has a blowdown on the sight glass. My K28 doesn't have one.


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## bigsteam (Mar 6, 2008)

Joel:

Looking at your photos I see a large number of items that are almost exactly like my coal fired K-27. The blower blast pipe plumbing in the smokebox, the apparent shape and size of the firebox door and the construction of the grates and ashpan combination.

Do you know who designed the boiler, etc.

John


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

John, I'm pretty sure Torry had a significant hand in the design of the boiler and pipework. Some of the C25 sheetmetal layout was taken from Rob Lenecheck's scratch built engine that was completed before this project began. I'm not sure how much but I do know Rob was consulted on this project in it's early phase.

Joel


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Be careful with the bypass valve on the K28 it was hard to close and the threads were easy to strip


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Wasn't Rob's C-25 built from brass etchings and other parts he got from David Bailey. IIRC David came to Diamondhead one year with a batch of parts for Rob and they spent hours discussing its construction. I saw Rob's model under construction, and it is a work of art. For those interested, there are even YouTube videos of him testing it.

Ross Schlabach


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

I got mine 2 weeks ago. Serial #10. I have fired it only once but it seemed to steam very easy. Ran it on rollers for about an hour.. This is my first coal fired engine..


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

So guys, where are we sourcing coal from these days? Did Jason get another shipment of coal?

I'm hoping these C25 beauties will run as well as my K28!. The large grate makes it a very forgiving coal burner. I've found on mine that once the transition from charcoal to coal is complete and the first all coal bed is burning well, it settles down and can then be run for hours!


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

CassRRfan said:


> I got mine 2 weeks ago. Serial #10. I have fired it only once but it seemed to steam very easy. Ran it on rollers for about an hour.. This is my first coal fired engine..


I like what they have done with the front of the tender! The K28 is somewhat difficult to stuff the coal in, especially with my off hand.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

seadawg said:


> So guys, where are we sourcing coal from these days? Did Jason get another shipment of coal?


Well Dave, that's a good question. I did not get any in but also have no one asking for it. Was someone selling welsh coal for 1.5" on ebay and labeling it for G1 and using my old pricing from my imports.. I doubt I could keep the same price with the cost of shipping increased. As I need to bring in 2200lbs and have no storage for it anymore, I need to rent a space as one of the local storage places. Means that cost is passed on to the retail price too. Last quote was 1300 for shipping and that was half or a full pallet!

I had originally brought in a small bean 1/2-5/8"( About whats on Ebay now.) but found for just G1 the pea size was best, about 3/8" 10mm max side.


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## lenicheck (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey, guys. Haven't heard anything here about how the engine actually runs. Hope it's good news. I do know that one of the young folk who ran the prototype out here in Sacto was apparently not disappointed when he ran his own. I do think that Accucraft listened on this design. 

And BTW, Ross - I did talk to David a bunch but didn't actually use any of his parts. Wanted to build my own.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Rob. Please accept my apology for the unintended misrepresentation. That makes all your scratch work on your C-25 that much more remarkable and I compliment you on your fine work.

I had been thinking of buying one of this round of C-25s (Butane though so since coal is not always welcomed at venues I can get to), but the price jump between releases was stiff. And when you consider that the expected P-8 Pacific is on offer for about $2k less, it makes the C-25 price look outrageous.

Best regards,

Ross Schlabach


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

seadawg said:


> So guys, where are we sourcing coal from these days?


Dave and all concerned,

See *here* for more info on Welsh coal availability.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, thank you for bringing in coal. A reliable source of fuel has been for me and I'm sure others has been a reluctant factor in acquiring a coal fired loco. LG..


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob, The C-25 runs excellent. As easy to steam up as my K-28. The blower is a witch!!! Once there is just s smidge of steam, you can crack it and the fire really takes off. I haven't had a chance to streach it out on the track, so I don't now how well the pump keeps up. All in all, it looks like my K-28 is going to get put on the siding for a while.

All - Regarding coal. I have made a few purchases from Maidstone Engineering, they are sourcing Signal Fuels Welsh grains. They have air-freighted it to me for about $170 for a 20kg bag. Not cheap, but the size is perfect for 1:20 engines. And 20kg goes a long way.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi all. Just received my C-25 today as an early Christmas present to myself! I got the Butane version but have a coal grate on order so I can switch when the opportunity presents.

For those who might care, there are a few differences to note between the versions. The seemingly biggest difference is a ceramic burner instead of a coal grate. It looks like both versions have the same ash pan. The big difference is in the tender but not what you might expect. Of course the Butane version has a gas tank in addition to the tender pump. There is only one large water area on the Butane tender while the coal version has a short water tank well back in the center of the tender but the unexpected difference is that the coal version has the tender coal boards almost completely removed to ease access to the firebox. The coal boards on the Butane tender are full height to keep a large supply of water available to warm the gas tank on cooler days. I think these can be cut down somewhat (for those who aren't squeamish about such actions) to improve firebox access while still keeping enough water in the tender for its other duties.

There is one thing that is a bit odd. Since it appears that the coal version is the basis for both the coal and the Butane models, there is an unusual compromise that needs to be addressed. The Butane model has a ceramic Butane burner fitted in place of the coal grate and the receptacle for the gas jet is right under the drawbar. But on the tender for the Butane model, they have fed the gas line and jet through a rectangular opening ABOVE the drawbar connecting point. That means that in order to connect the gas line, you must route that gas line around the drawbar to get down to the burner receptacle. This is not the greatest idea since on tight curves, the gas line could get pinched or pulled. I think it is better to back the gas line out of the rectangular opening which will let it be routed straight to the burner. With this change it may be advisable to shorten the gas line a bit, but each owner can judge that for themselves. This is not addressed in the owner's manual, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

It will be a while before I will have track access to give this model a good workout, but in the meantime I'm looking forward to a tread mill run to familiarize myself with its performance.

Happy holidays,

Ross Schlabach


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

One other deficiency that could use fixing. On the Butane model (I can't see the tender interior cleanly on the coal version), the axle pump return water pipe is way too short. In operation, it will be likely underwater and therefore it would not be possible to monitor it for proper management of the bypass valve. I think another piece of slightly larger pipe could be bent and slipped over this short section to get the return water up where you could see it.

The coal version may have the same issue, but those owners will need to check their tenders.

I'm sure this is going to be a really fun model to run: lots of things to fiddle with! &#55357;&#56846; Now where am I going to fit a realistic whistle to make things complete?

Ross Schlabach


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross,
Does your butane model come with a functional blower? I was not aware that ceramic burners required blowers for function. Also how many flues does your boiler have? My coal fired C-25 has 9 flues and a wet leg firebox. While it may be possible that they used the same engine with a simple changeout of the grate and some tender mods, the boiler on coal fired engines are usually pretty complex compared to what I have seen with butane engines.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Joel,

The Butane version has the exact same boiler, complete with wet legs, all the flues, blower and axle pump. And the ceramic Butane burner does require an auxiliary fan when steaming up. This is the same with Accucraft ceramic burners in locos like the N&W J 611. Apparently Accucraft realized that they could offer a really nice Butane fired engine without much additional effort by keeping everything else the same - except for the tender as I discussed above. 

The ability to run this with coal by just switching out the burner for a coal grate should allow for a lot of fun. I already have some coal coming from Ryan.

Happy holidays,

Ross Schlabach


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

One other note Joel. Several years ago at Diamondhead we discussed getting a few more Butane fired C-25s, and that was how Bing said he would make them available with just a burner/grate swap. Of course it made for a much more expensive Butane fired loco, but the flexibility has made it worth the extra dosh.

Ross Schlabach


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross, Very cool. Well, as you said, you paid a premium for the butane fired loco, so might as well enjoy the coal option. I wonder if they would make a butane tender available for sale...


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

One other difference you may have, or not, depending on Accucraft's def of 'identical. When I received my engine the smokebox door was fixed and did not open. Accucraft distributed a 'patch kit' which included a smoke box front with opening smokebox door. This allows easier cleaning? of the flues. The alternative was to remove the front of the smoke box (two small bolts). I went ahead and replaced mine, but for practical reasons it is always easier to remove the full front of the smokebox to allow sweeping out of accumulated cinders. Since I would be removing the bolts regularly, I drilled/tap'd them out to 2mm threads rather than the 1.5mm that they had used.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Mine has an opening smokebox door that works just fine. 

The two tenders are different and each is best for its designed fuel type. The coal one might not have enough room for the Butane tank and the Butane tender doesn't have the nice cutaway to make coal stoking easy. So a spare tender of the appropriate type would be nice but I'll bet if they even have one(s) to sell, they will be expensive.

Ross Schlabach


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

I was running my C-25 today and the crosshead pin came out... I can put it back in but there is nothing holding it n... Does anyone know what I need to do to make it stay... the other one looks to be press fitted.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have not yet had the opportunity to run my new C-25. But after the post from CassRRfan, I went down and checked the crosshead pins on my loco. Both nuts were very tight and would not move. There is no thread exposed to the inside and actually looks like the inside end of the pin could be peeled over. 
Best, to call Accucraft for advice before doing anything since it is under warranty. Back in the day when Cliff ran support, you would get a new loco and they'd pay to ship the damaged one back, but I can't say if that is still in force. They did it for me on the N&W J which arrived with some factory damage.

There are one or two other possibilities but Accucraft should make this right - and quickly.

Best of luck,

Ross Schlabach


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

Thanks.... i’ll give them a call in the morning !


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

I talked will the repair person with Accucraft this morning and he suggested I try putting some loctite on the end and see if that will hold it in place... I had thought about trying that but wanted to wait and see what they had to say... I let you know how it works.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont have one in front of me opened but its typical that they peen the end over. Is the end of the pin have a centerdrill? Usually its peened well, this seems it was not at all. Can you take a close up photo of the pin off the loco?


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## Joel779 (Jan 2, 2008)

I looked at mine, and it appears to be a SS bolt that is peened on the inside.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

So then to repair a new pin is needed and the crosshead has to be pulled to properly repair. Loctite will only be a bandaid as its eaten by the oils and will fail again shortly. Nevermind you risk locking the wristpin too!


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

Not where I can take a picture of mine right now... I did look at it when it was out and it’s just straight on the end... I’d say they just missed peening it... The guy I talked to didn’t seen to think it was a big deal and loctite would fix it... I’m just worried that after the warranty is up it will fall out, I’ll loose it, and it will cost a bunch to get it fixed.


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## TonyW (Jul 5, 2009)

I had exactly the same problem with my Accucraft NG15. Loctite did not work for me as even 603 failed after a couple of runs. The pin is peened in from the back but, on my loco at least, huge amounts of dismantling would be required for access. Instead, I cleaned the outer end of the pin and crosshead scrupulously and then by using a good flux I ran some lead/tin solder under the head of the pin and attached it to the crosshead. It has been like that for three years now and shows no sign of moving.


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Keep in mind that Accucraft should be responsible for repair or replacement. So don't do anything that that would release them from their responsibility.

Ross Schlabach


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

OK, I put some Loctite on. We’ll see how that works. I’ll let you know.


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

Ran for and hour yesterday and did not come loose. Hopefully that will continue.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

CassRRfan said:


> Ran for and hour yesterday and did not come loose. Hopefully that will continue.


Be real careful, that's en expensive engine for a bandaid. I sure hope you don't run on a elevated track. If that pin drops out the main rod will catapult the loco at speed of the track when it catches the first tie.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Cass, hate to add to your distress, Loctite not such a good idea. My Fairymead rod did let loose and pole vaulted off my elevated layout. I was lucky to be able to repair my damaged stack. LiG


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Look at the bright side, it will be obvious if the advice not to just use loctite is correct... you will be treated to a really entertaining display of acrobatics.

Loctite themselves will tell you it's not used for a mechanical connection.

Hopefully you don't have an elevated layout.

Greg


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

Well. The guy I talked to at Accucraft, at least he was Accucraft’s repair person, told me that this was the solution... He didn’t feel like it needed any other type of repair!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I am curious, have some posts been deleted from this thread that I saw earlier this morning?? Thank You.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to be a spoiler or negative person, but I take the forums as an honest request for help and information, and where people can indeed comment.

CassRRfan:

With Cliff gone from Accucraft, it is my opinion that the technical support there has changed "flavors".

On one hand you have experienced people telling you that loctite won't last, even citing an example of it's failure, which can really damage the loco. These people have nothing to gain by giving you information, and if they were to give you bad information, then it would affect their reputations, which have been proven over the years.

On the other hand, you have the manufacturer who has avoided a repair cost and effort by telling you to use glue, and did not say, "if your loco flys off the track and get's damaged, we will pay for the repairs".

To me, I would err on the side of caution, even if it took more effort. 

This post is not to chide you, but be aware of the motivations of people giving you advice. Unfortunately if you rely on the glue and it fails, and the loco is damaged, what recourse do you have?

Just my 2 cents...

Greg - 270


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

Well, it’s very frustrating. I appreciate all the comments... I don’t think this is the proper fix either but if Accucraft isn’t willing to fix it correctly I don’t know what else to do. Right now I’m just running my engine on a static test bed to get familiar with operating it. I’ll continue to watch it and see how it does.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now, the other gentlemen on this thread know more that I do about the politics of getting this done.

But here's my take: brand new expensive loco. Part is loose that was not held in place with glue from the factory. If this is not a new loco then not covered by warranty.

Insist on new part/assembly. Get some of the experts to write something down you can show to Accucraft, expecially if they are dealers. Something as simple as "locktite is not acceptable, have had failures before"

Get Accucraft to understand that the cost of this one part is far cheaper than the negative "press" this will get if it fails (as a "loctite repair"). If they keep insisting that this will not fail, ask them in writing for free repairs to the loco, WHATEVER THEY ARE if this "repair" fails and damages ANYTHING, especially from a "pole vault".

All they can say is no at this point, and enjoy a degraded public reputation.

Greg


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## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

You might try the permanent Loctite red, or JB Weld, both can be loosened with the heat of a soldering iron or very small torch if needed. Normally use the blue Loctite, for most things. I would trust JB Weld for this problem.

Steve


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## CassRRfan (Feb 8, 2017)

I was told to use the blue and not the red... I had thought about JB weld... When I run it on the track and not my stand I will probably use some JB weld. Thanks for mentioning that.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

First question is who is your dealer, as they are the ones that have the pull to get it repaired and would be taking care of the issue for you, That's why we are dealers. I always offer my help and service before and after the sales. Its part of my sale. As to your being told by David to use loctite, David is the shipping person at Accucraft. Cliff never really taught him the lifetime of knowledge he had, nor was he expected to be able to make repairs. That was always on Cliff and when the need arose Bob an outside repairman. With Cliff gone, David is left as the only person by default. You need to make him understand that there is no inside support of this pin and that its flush on the crosshead. The factory it was a peened joint same as the other locos. Dont use JB Weld or loctite, the oils eat away at the loctite. Just ask anyone who has a Shay from Mike Chaney with a loctited crankshaft, how many slipped form the oils over time and need to be remade and silversoldered.

Other option is make a new pin with a head on the back and either a nut on the front OR a 2 part pin. Will require a lathe of course.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jason, not wanting to put you at odds with Accucraft, but as a dealer, I think you would have had a different answer to this customer's concerns.

Yeah, we miss Cliff, and I see they apparently did not actually replace him.

Sad.

Greg


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

it may be interesting to know that the heaviest loaded bearing in a Steamer [full size or smaller] is the Little end bearing in the Crosshead..contact you r selling dealer, if he cant repair it properly , have him ship it to Accucraft for repair under warranty..

Gordon.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, simply tried to explain that David doesnt always understand what someone explains over the phone he is just starting to handle part of Cliffs job. Going to take a very long time to be up to the same knowledge.. Heck, I have the same problem but when I hang up I know he knows what Im speaking about. Here I think it got passed off as just a pressed in pin.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Jason, not wanting to put you at odds with Accucraft, but as a dealer, I think you would have had a different answer to this customer's concerns.
> 
> Yeah, we miss Cliff, and I see they apparently did not actually replace him.
> 
> ...


Had he bought from me, I would of properly peened this one over if it never was or replaced the pin with a new one and peen over as the factory. This of course required the cylinders to be partially apart as does part of the valvegear and brackets. Not a simple repair. But one thats been done before. Have to do it to service the gland seal on the piston rod too. Ive done a few K28/K27 its a good 1-2 hours per side the first time. I was about 1.25 hours after a few. 

Though sounds like he may have skipped buying from a dealer and used the Estore, so then hes stuck dealing direct. Good reason to buy from us dealers, when a problem arises, we take care of it. Have to say though, all dealers will sell the steamers but only a few can service and support. The rest foward you on to Accucraft to get it fixed. I think Cliff also got burnt out on all the " O you have to call Cliff"


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Jason, your response is what I surmised. I always buy from a dealer, and never look for the absolute lowest price, because when I have an issue, I need someone "in my corner", and I want that person to view me as a valued customer. The relationship goes both ways.

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff was a real treasure for Accucraft, and it was a shame to lose him to retirement. I can certainly understand Cliff's desire to retire, and I do hope he's doing really well!! Accucraft now needs to try and find a good replacement if they are to maintain their reputation for "taking care of their customers."


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

"Right now I’m just running my engine on a static test bed to get familiar with operating it. I’ll continue to watch it and see how it does" Running it static won't reveal the weakness. My rod came loose on a curve where there is more stress on them. LiG


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

You could always run it in reverse. That way, if the pin comes loose and it drops the rod, at least it's trailing so it will bump harmlessly along the ties, instead of pole vaulting the engine off the track.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Or rebuild it into a cab-forward;-))) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

rw, I will keep that in mind. I was able to replace the pin with a bolt, head ground down, and a nut. I damaged the threads so It wouldn't unscrew. So far So good. LiG


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## ddrum31 (Aug 30, 2017)

Joel I PM'd you


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