# A perfect Aristo Kuppler match!



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RE: "The Kuppler: A Pictorial Review by Stan Cedarleaf"

http://www.aristocraft.com/insiders...eb2010.pdf 










"....and how did is match with a standard Kadee? 
Perfectly! 
Next was to match it with a standard Aristo-Craft knuckle coupler as this is the battery car for the GP40. How did this match? 
Perfectly!..." 





Perfection appears to be in the eyes of the beholder!
Does this look to be perfect to you?

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not one of the pictures has correct alignment. 

Not only are the heights mismatched, the Aristo shank is not even level. 

No offense Stan, but this is not perfect. It might be workable. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

They don't look particularly well matched to me either. 

That Kool Aide must be a strange brew to affect the eyesight of the writer.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a comment, guys. 

The rest of the story. 

I'm running the Kuppler with Kadee, LGB, USA and Bachmann knuckles and they work just fine. 

The same reports are coming from other testers as well.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

To me the real test is in use on the RR at sidings and with grand kids.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The new K/D look more like a real coupler the that dose,
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/17/aft/113974/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As I said, might be workable. 

But the new Kuppler does not have the same unique capability that the original Aristo had, the "shelf" underneath to keep couplers from overriding. 

Under tension, and especially if the couplers are not level or the same height (as we have here) kadees will uncouple on long trains. The Kuppler must be subject to the same laws of physics, i.e. forces not "straight" through the couplers. 

So, I'll agree that it's workable, but PERFECT? No. That's what is being objected to. If Kadee put out an ad for their couplers and showed misalignment like this we would all cry "foul" also. 

No longer having the "shelf" may be a rude awakening for Aristo users. 

Regards, Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Perfect? 

What's more important gents; the way they mate or the heights they are mounted at? 
I think Stan ws stressing that they mate well, hold together and behave as they are supposed to. 

The imperfections noted are more towards mis matched heights, something that usually takes reworking in great detail with other couplers... so that standard appears to be the same across the board... and isn't really part of the example...except the pickers of nit who see the misalignment and run with that.... 

How come nobody noted that lift bars should work with these? The verticle pin ala Delton couplers, should do away with screw driver uncouplers ala Kadee... I won't miss the uncoupler bump on the bottom of the old aristo's and it will facilitate foreign roads to operate here... 

Stan I'd like to know more about the positives, like how much force is necessary to couple? How many cars can they take? Length of trains (for those mailliners) etc... 
Thanks for posting. 

John


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

_I may be wrong but I beleive I see a shelf in the photos from the INSIDER new letter.............Jim_


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Personally the thing I've always liked about the aristos is the ease of use and the forgivingness. Kadees always seemed really fussy to me, but then I have no real experience with them. I tried to pull the kupplers apart at the Fall ECLSTS, and could not. Will they stay coupled on uneven track? We'll see. 


If they really do mate with other brands--USAT, for examples, or AML--the thing would be a boon. Especially if it's as forgiving as the existing giant aristo knuckle. 




Also waiting on price--if they are comparable to kadees, and work as well as the existing giant aristo knuckle, sign me up


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh...

I stand corrected....

From the Aristo site, the pictures of the originals never had a "shelf": (and I have handled some of them)



















But, after looking at the new pictures, there is NOW indeed a small plate on the underside.

That's good, and that will allow the Kuppler to tolerate height and angle mismatch like the original Aristo coupler (which also did not start life with the "shelf")

So, for all Aristo combinations, the feature prevails, and I know from talking to many people that it helps. I know many people who will not change from Aristo couplers just because of this feature. Most know why, but some only know the Aristo stays coupled better.

I run long trains, and steep grades, which can exaggerate the length of the cars and "amplify" any misalignment, especially with long body mount passenger cars.


Kadees are indeed more "fussy", height and "level" is very important.

So, my only protest is seeing the "angles" and calling it "perfect". Perfect it is not. Workable for all Aristo, I suppose so, at least from my experience (I have a number of Aristo products and couplers). Workable with Kadees? Those alignments are unacceptable.

One other mention in the design, which is a nice step forwards overall for Aristo: I do not like the pivot points, and when backing long trains, suspect that you would need to lock one of them, otherwise your couplers will fold up in "zig zag" fashion in compression.

I know why the "double jointed" design came about, you see it on the longer Aristo products, and it will be necessary on body mounts. 


Regards, Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I thank Stan for doing the Insider article. 

Actually, I kind of like the new Aristo Kuppler as it is more realistic than its predecessor and does seem to have some clever features. 
If I could purchase a couple I like to try them, but I don't think they are available from dealers yet. 

The issue of horizontal alignment with Kadees, however, is critical as Kadees do not have the shelf. ( I call this feature the "chin plate" because to me it resembles the positioning of the WWII B17 bomber chin turret below the nose.) 

Now that I have about 60 cars retrofitted with Kadees (and 250+ more to do), it's important that any alternative coupler not only mate, but horizontally align. 
This is particularly critical for long, heavy trains (about 55 cars) I typically operate on a very circuitous layout. 
(The coupler loading at the loco pulling such a train is approx. 3.5 to 4 lbs from what I measure.) 

If you operate a train on straight, level track paths it is much more forgiving with less pulling draw bar loading; so judging performance is highly dependent on circumstances. 

-Ted


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 12 Jan 2010 08:35 AM {snip}
Stan I'd like to know more about the positives, like how much force is necessary to couple? How many cars can they take? Length of trains (for those mailliners) etc... {snip}

John 
Thanks for the comments, John.

There are probably some negatives that folks will find as they're made for body mounting. I haven't tried to adapt them to talgo mounts yet. They work so well as body mounts, I don't see a need to try a talgo. HOWEVER.... it might be interesting to see just what reconfiguration might need to be done to do that.

As a tester, I did get a few "extra" pair to try out so in addition to my first tests shown in the "review", I body mounted them on all 6 of my "Marty inspired" self built container cars. I had intially body mounted original Aristo knuckles and had some issues with the car uncoupling and had some difficulty with "swing" when backing the train up or going though an switch "S" curve situation. 
With the new Kuppler, I have no problem with either. They couple with very little efford, just as easy as or easier than Kadee to Kadee. Those cars are in the middle of a 20 car train and there have been no "releases". 

The Kuppler has the abilitiy to be adapted for many installations as it can be configured many different ways. 

It might be good to read the entire report to see all the test results.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes the new kuppler does have the shelf to prevent uncoupling. I will be investing in some of these when they become available sometime by the time the East coast show starts. Its good that they will mate with the present AC coupler. Also there is suppose to be a talgo one available. This is the indication I got when I read the article. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I thought the one model fit everything, you unscrew it from the "base" to truck mount. 

I think it will be a boon to Aristo people who might be encouraged to convert to body mount. 

Regards, Greg


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

When Aristo was REA there was a shelf on the bottom. You could never get them coupled because the shelf would not be lined up with the other coupler, AND they pulled apart with about 15 cars. To me they look like the old K/D's you would think Aristo would come up with something on there own instead of copying someone elses.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The story gets funnier if you read the Aristo site where the original posts on it from Aristo say it was not going to be Kadee compatible and would have the knuckle the other way... 

Then compatibility with Kadee was touted, and the possibility raised that it would become the new standard, meaning replacing Kadee... 

(I think this also coincided with expiration of a Kadee patent) 

Just one big, happy, Large Scale community! 

Greg 


p.s. for fun, read posts 1,8,9: http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=13471


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Trains on 12 Jan 2010 12:10 PM 
When Aristo was REA there was a shelf on the bottom. You could never get them coupled because the shelf would not be lined up with the other coupler, AND they pulled apart with about 15 cars. To me they look like the old K/D's you would think Aristo would come up with something on there own instead of copying someone elses.

Donnie, they are completely different from the original Aristo or REA couplers. They couple and uncouple very easily and have a completely different uncoupling pin from KD or the original Aristo kunckle. The Kuppler is much easier uncouple that KD's.

I don't think the idea was to copy KD, just make it compatible with the other knuckles on the market. Check the full article in the Insider and see how they adapt to KGB LGB knuckles. The little tab needs to be cut off but they will couple to the LGB just by backing to it. If you ever have a chance to look at one, I think you'll be aware of those features.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Whoops..... Donnie... Them's LGB knuckles, not KGB....


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