# Humm, New House with little room for trains



## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, we slept in the new house for the first time last night.

Still lots of stuff to get out of the old house.

Going from 2800 to 2000 square feet is tuff.

So, were do the trains go?

No fenced in back yard and the screen room is only 21 foot x 9 foot.

The garage will be full of stuff.

Looks like a small layout in the screen room with two lift out sections for doors is my only choice.

Well, I better get back to this moving thing.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

9 x 21 is *plenty* of area, if you approach it right. My old layout was only 9 x 19 and that had plenty of things going on.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 8ft diameter curves l hope to use.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Randy, look on the bright side, you no longer have to issue scuba gear to the train crew! 

Good luck, we know you will come up with something! 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

10' x 11' w 8' diameters, I little tweeking might work for 9 x 21.

Now comes the real questions

1. What is the absolute MINIMUM curvature your rolling stock require? IOWs can your stock get around something like 6.5' diameter curves, That would open up additional planning possibilities

2. If push comes to shove, can you live with selling off the gigantor stock (Dash-9s) and using the funds to purchase smaller items (GP-9s) that WILL run on the smaller dia curves.
Again this opens possibilites.

If you are limited to that space you specify what lifestyle changes are youi willing to make to make it work, something about eggs and omelettes or something...


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

well, I have mostly short cars. 34 ft coal cars. 40 ft box cars etc. 

I have some small motive power also with a 2-4-0, a couple critters and the Hustler. 

Course it'd be nice to be able to run my LGB Mogul. 

As for the USAT passenger cars and the Dash 9, they might have to become self queens. 

If the 8 ft diameter curves won't fit, I've got plenty of 4 ft diameter curve track. 

I really think I can squeeze the 8 ft curve in. 

The one lift out section will be in the middle of the curve on one end. That will be interesting.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy 
OK, why again did you down size??


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

21' would make for a nice shelf layout. That way the room wouldn't be taken up entirely by a layout, but could have other uses. Say a 3' x21' shelf layout. Wouldn't have continuous running abilities, but I'm sure you could model quite a bit. 

Craig


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Loosing 800 ft not bad. You have plenty of space for 8 ft curves just will need to put the think cap on and it can be done. Have fun as this where it all starts. Later RJD


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Screen Room? 

9 x 21 feet should be big enough. Lay some track out on the floor sometime and see if the 8 foot curves fit. Maybe toss in a piece or two of tighter radius if need be.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By ThinkerT on 16 Mar 2012 06:22 PM 
Screen Room? 

9 x 21 feet should be big enough. Lay some track out on the floor sometime and see if the 8 foot curves fit. Maybe toss in a piece or two of tighter radius if need be. 
Yes a transition curve would help a larger locomotive negotiate a tighter curve.

Alan


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Wishful thinking on transition curves. Later RJD


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 16 Mar 2012 06:38 PM 
Wishful thinking on transition curves. Later RJD 

???


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Even if the back yard isn't fenced....could you put a raised layout like the live steam folks do...on posts? Then, all that would be outside (unprotected) would be the roadbed and track.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

RJ gets confussssed sometimes.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Not any worse than you Marty. You Don't have a clue to what the word means. Later RJD


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty our house is being sold as a short sale. Renting a house for the time being till we decide what we want to do long term.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well if your renting why consider a RR unless your going to bite the bullet and buy it. You might make it a little more clearer if you are going to buy. Maybe if you get the right Ideas for building a RR then you could buy? Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On the transition curve, I'll explain what some people might think is obvious: Using transition curves uses MORE space than curves with no transitions (given of course the same "main" curve). Since this started with Randy being concerned about enough room for curves, adding transition curves is "wishful thinking" if you are already tight on space. 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Greg 

Yes to fit in a transition curve the main curve diameter would need to reduce to fit it in. In Randy's case it may be easier to stick with set curves of a single radius, especially if its not permanent. 

Alan


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I may be wrong, but I think that he is going from a 2800 sq ft house to a 2000 sq ft house. I would imagine that the size of the yard is also smaller. Tomorrow I will try to take some pictures of my temporary layout in Arizona. We are out here on and off over the year. AND I NEED MY TRAINS!! It is on my patio with a main line and two passing sidings and some buildings. I'm using 10' diameter curves at each end, but it could be done with LGB 16000s (8' diameter, R-3) in your space. Any 1;22.5 or 1:24 cars and engines would be very happy on LGB 16000 series curves and switches.

Your mogul would be very happy on the 16000 curves. Many years ago I ran my moguls on LGB 15000 (5'diameter-R-2) curves and never had a problem. 


Chuck


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 16 Mar 2012 03:50 PM 
well, I have mostly short cars. 34 ft coal cars. 40 ft box cars etc. 

I have some small motive power also with a 2-4-0, a couple critters and the Hustler. 

Course it'd be nice to be able to run my LGB Mogul. 

As for the USAT passenger cars and the Dash 9, they might have to become self queens. 

If the 8 ft diameter curves won't fit, I've got plenty of 4 ft diameter curve track. 

I really think I can squeeze the 8 ft curve in. 

The one lift out section will be in the middle of the curve on one end. That will be interesting. 



Given that, you could go to a dual track layout with 6.5' dia on the outer loop and 5' dia on the interior loop or possibly an 8' dia loop outer and 6.5 inner but the wider curves will eat up more floor space. Modular tables can be built cheap, or use folding tables, some guy on GR did a temp layout using folding tables, complete with two loops and turnouts, it CAN be done, even if your not their permanantly, you CAN do alot of things.

Its really up to you to start sketching out ideas and start seeing what you can do. I still think you have plenty of room for a modular shelf type around the room layout or if you want to go smaller dia curves you could do a tighter R1 layout like the one I put in my garage and later took down it. Start sketching.


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

It's a sad thing to have to pack up you toys and move








It's worse when your stuck at the same place and threatened with lawsuits if you don't take down your outdoor layout and move it indoors, esp. if you lived in a small roomed condo like we did. I did "buck" the rule and went with a smaller layout in the rose garden out front. BUT if your going to move, either rent or buy, shouldn't you plan on finding a place that's med. sized or larger layout friendly ??? I told you before Randy that you should move out of FL to somewhere that the prices (renting or buying) would not be so much at a premium. FL is a dying place for good jobs that pay well. FL is only good for the weathly to retire, not the working man. Anyway, you could find a better place out of FL where you can get more for your housing dollar. with that small space you talk of, you'll be limited to small 4 axle desiel power, small LGB type steamers and short trains. Regular passenger cars are out too except maybe the Aristo streamliners(short). If you can live with that then ok. But if not, you'd better find a different place to go. The guys can help you here, but I tried indoors in a 10x11 room and was unhappy.

Tomorrow, I'm going down to clean up my condo and get a handyman to change carpets, paint, etc. 
When that's done, FL will be history for me. I've been thru the trouble with FL housing vs trains and I'll never do that again. If I were you, I'd check with the landlord about doing trains in his rental unit and show him what you'd like to do AND get it in writing on the lease from him/her B-4 going ahead and doing it. Otherwise you might learn another bad lesson and end up with no place to live. I've been thru something like that from the landlords point of view too. Just a bit of advice.

Good luck in your continuing train ventures








Hopefully you won't have to wait 5+ years like I did before getting a decent layout again.
I'm happy now and NO ONE can tell what I can and can't do with MY trains.

Rocky


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Why consider a railroad when renting?

Well, I can build something temporary or be bored for the next few years. 

At this point, I hope not to move again as long as my mother is alive.

I have two main hobbys. Toy Cars and Trains.

I can put up all my shelves and display my toys or I can leave the toys boxed up and play trains.

In playing trains, I could leave the G trains boxed up and run my HO trains, but I prefer my G trains.

Sure I could build a grand HO layout in a 9x21 ft area, but I don't need a grand layout in G.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh Yea, go fot it Randy, keeps the mind clear and the wallet empty. Any RR is better than none.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll see if I can track down the GR that had the layout made from folding tables. Like Marty says some layout is better than no layout at all, 9x21 with temp tables is so doable.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

For whatever reason, this situation reminds me of that old rule of thumb I used to have: lessee...that a 'common' size for indoor large scale layouts was 12 x 24, give or take a yard in one or another direction. Several posters here, like myself, either have or had layouts in this size range. (I knocked out most of a wall to go from 11 x 27 to 15 x 27). But...from there you either jump up to full basement size (like Rocky and DA Winter) or drop down to something barely bigger than a kitchen table (like Mic and Vic at various points).


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, how I'd like to have a basement again. But it would be under water here in most of Florida.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm thinking of benchwork made up of sections that can be taken apart for the next move. 

24 or 30 inch wide by 48 inch long. 

Sure the track and accessories would have to be disassembled, but the sections could be moved in and out of the screen room easily. 

I've always liked the 2x4 framing with particle board top. Being outside in damp weather, the particle board may not hold up. 

But then again, how well will plain plywood hold up? 

The particle board will crumble will the plywood will bulge and ripple.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Why not Foam Insulation board? The Blue or Pink Stuff. I know a HO club that used that to build their portable Layout in sections. 

JJ


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy:

This is what I do for my temporary RR fix when we are out in Arizona of a couple of months. This track plan is about 12'x31', but it is certainly doable on a 9' x 21' space. LGB R2 or R3 would work very nicely. You certainly can run anything by LGB on that space. 





























Chuck


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck that's a nice back porch. It reminds me a lot of the layout I had beside the pool and around the hot tub, but like the layout I had in the old house's Florida room, I just can't get down on the floor anymore so the trains were run more by my son than me. I'm going to build the layout above the snake cage which is right about 36 inches, so I can stand or sit on a stool while switching and running trains.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy can you take some pics of the area? Its kinda hard to make suggestions without seeing the situation. Also have you made a list of goals you want on the layout?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Being in the middle of this move, I don't have a clue where my camera is. As for goals, the only goal right now is to have a layout. Once we're completely out of the old house and we've closed out the sale, then I can start thinking of what I want the layout to be.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

My apologies then, I thought you were already moved in and ready to start planning. I'll keep looking for that back issue of GR, I know its is a magazine holder thats tucked away in the back room somewhere.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy, heres a couple possibilities, I just expanded my 10 x 11 plan and then extrapolated to dbl loop, just so you can begin to visualize just hat could be done in that space, both utilize 24 x 48 folding tables I found on Amazon. Of course it might be better to fabricate your own 2x4 modules but the folding tables also work as shown here.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I like the second setup with the double loop. 

Not sure about having a lift out section on the end with two lines. 

The snake gage is a good 36 inchs maybe more taller so folding tables are out of the question. 

The neighbors are going to love me, the garage is fulll and the garage in the old house is still full. 

Where oh where do I put all this stuff?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I found a great place to store stuff was at the Salvation Army. Of course I never went back to pick any of it up. But honestly once I got rid of that stuff I never really missed any of it. 

The lift bridge I have is hinged on one side. Its really easy to lift up.


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I run indoor with 6.5' diam on the outside... and 5' diam on the inside... 
and I can run lots of locos... but no Dash-9... gp40s, gp38, gp9, FAs, U25s and the smaller stuff... 

largest cars I run are the Aristo 100 ton hoppers and the Evans Box Cars... 

Looks fine to me...


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The new development we've moved into is having a community garage sale next month. 

I hate doing them, but it's an idea. 

We got the snake gage moved tonite, both the scooter and the powered wheel chair. 

I found out tonite that out door sheds are not allowed. So it looks like the lawn tractor will be staying in the warm garage. 

Still have the mini drag bike, tile cutter, tool chest, double filing cabinet, push mower, lawn tractor and trailer along with the 6 chairs that go with the patio table, two ladders, wheels and tires and a go cart along with more stuff to get out of the garage. OH, then there is the cloths in the master bedroom closet. 

The lawyer told me today we have to close by the 25th of March. We may have to pile stuff in the driveway.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

OK I have to ask simply because you've mentioned it twice and I have no idea what the heck your talking about...what is a *snake gage*?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a wooden framed gage covered with wire mesh that my son's 11foot albino bermese python is kept in.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Snake cage! OK got it, I'm surprised that the little nightmare would be kept outside. Doesnt the occasional cold affect it? 

When I was looking at 24x48 folding tables I found one that was adjustable height-wise from 24 to 36 inches, but if the cage itself is 3 foot high, then that wont work unless you put all the tables up on riser blocks. I dunno, when you get that stage maybe its easier to just fab up some 1x4 frames with some exterior plywood cut into 24x48 panels and just use some 1x4 legs, at least that way you could infill the gaps with extra plywood sections and screw the panels sections together to make the whole thing secure, you could also fit the panels around any posts or doors or such. It would also give you something the attach the track down into. Overall I think it would be less expensive than the ready-made tables, but the tables might allow you to get set up and running alot faster. If it was me in that situation I would still go wood, but then I'm kinda nutty when it comes to wood framing.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

My son has heat lamps for the few cold nights we have here in Florida. 

I prefer wood also. JJ's idea of using styro foam sheet for the top is interesting, but I think it would need more cross bracing so it doesn't sag under the load.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

Randy, I used the styrafoam that they use with concrete on a building, it is 3" thick, i think it would hold up well with no sag if you use only a 2x4 under it, because you have limited space you can cut the styrafoam to fit your RR, lets say you do a double loop with a yard and some turn outs, you cut the stryafoam to fit instead of benches. I would look into it, its easy to work with, you just paint it whatever color you want, you can rough it up a little, you can do a lot of different stuff with it, check out Yogi Wallaces site for ideas on what you can do with it. You take a 4x8 sheet and you can use a lot of pieces from it to save space. 
just tossing out some ideas. 

Tom h


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

2x4 out side frame. Frame around the insulation foam like a picture....then use 2x2 for inside bracing under the foam as needed 

JJ


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, so the foam may well be a possibility, but how do you cut it without making a huge mess? 

Isn't there some kind of hot knife or something that works?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I have reservations about using just foam, namely securing track down onto it, its vunerable to breakage especially aliong the edges, securing a wood fascia is troublesome becuase the stuff doesnt like screws or nails so it needs a glue of some sort. Liquid Nails For Foam Products works well. I kinda know what JJ has in mind, but I do know you most definetly need some kind of wood support under foam. Depending on how thick your foam sheets are, I think 2x4s might be a bit much. I think 1x4s would be more than sufficient. Create a box frame of 1x4s around the foam sheet, use a couple 1x4 L's under to provide foam support and something to attach the 2x2 legs to. Each "box" could then be attached to the other with clamps or screws. 

Best way to cut it? depending how thick your foam is, I used 2" thick sheets, if your doing long straight cuts, use a big snap-off blade craft knive, the one with the big 1" wide blades, score the foam as deep as you can, it will easily cut down about an inch, them use a counter or similar and snap the foam over that egde, it will break straight along the score line. For curves I have used a hot wire foam cutter but the depth of cut is limited to the cutters yoke size. Havent tried a hot knife as the technics above worked well enough for me. Cutting the stuff doesnt make a mess, shaping it into hills is what makes a mess.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

i cut my foam with kitchen knives. 
and having the hose of a running hoover just beside the cut.


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