# Hey everyone: Couple Questions



## USCTrey (Jul 6, 2011)

Hey everybody,
I'm new to outdoor model railroads and would like to install a layout in my backyard. I currently have accumulated about 500 feet of track and have a pretty detailed plan of how i want the layout to look. I've also done most of the ground preparation work. So essentially, by my idea, I am ready to start laying track. Which leads me to my couple of questions.
1) I live in Southern California, so we have pretty moderate temperatures all year round. However I do live on a hillside with a natural river going through it. My layout will be going through this area (which has been leveled.) Will normal ballasting (couple inch trench) be enough to hold the track into place? Or should I add in some quick dry cement into the roadbed and ballast. A few of the local store owners have recommended this.
2) Is it better to trench and then add lining around said trench in order to prevent the dirt and gravel from mixing?
3) I have hundreds of feet of extra side panelling for my house. Its high quality and I know will not warp or rot anytime soon. Would it be possible to lay the track on top of this and then add gravel on top of it? If i were to do this would it be best to add gravel and roadbed under the panelling, essentially floating it? Or use the panelling as a barrier and then add gravel and such on top of it?

Or perhaps, does anyone have a recommendation on how to proceed with laying track? I would like most of it to be at ground a level. I have spent hours looking around, but sometimes I feel like it's better just to ask!

Thanks!
~Trey


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Trey:

You will probably get several different answers, as there are several different systems out there. My recommendation is a trench backfilled with an angular aggregate. Here in Virginia it is called rock dust. It is the fines left after rocks go through a crusher and the larger fragments are removed. The maximum grain size will be about 1/4 inch. Angular fragments will pack better than spherical (round) ones. The smallest fragments will be dust sized. You can line your trench with a weed barrier. This will help keep the weeds out and limit the migration of your fill. I let my track float on the ballast and then fill in between the ties with more rock dust. I do not recommend anchoring the track to an immovable base. The track will expand and contract with temperature. I knew someone in Denver who anchored his track and on a hot day came out and found his track has separated from the ties. If you do anchor it, do it at 4' or 5' spaces and plan for expansion and contraction. 

There are several places around here that sell decorative rock have rock dust. If there is a quarry operation nearby you might be able to get some there, or they could tell you where you could get some. I just drive into the yard at a stone store and shovel about 500 pounds into the back of my SUV.

Chuck


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi Trey, 

Welcome to the group! This is a great site with tons of info and knowledgeable people. The typical method is a trench about 5 inches deep. Line the bottom and walls of it with a weed blocking fabric. This will keep your ballast from migrating into the soil. Then you can fill it mostly with crushed limestone about 3/8 to 1/2 in size. This will be a jagged rock not smooth so that it locks together. Finish the top with the same stone but crushed even smaller. They call this crusher fines. This is the right size for ballast and the powders will wash down in and help set or bond it all together with a few rains. Just float your track on this and you will be good.


As for your drainage concern, I would leave a dry river bed in place where it naturally wants to drain. I would go as far as adding bridges or trestles to let the water pass below. Water is very powerful when it is on the move in any quantity and will easily wash you road bed out. Besides this will add some character to your layout and lots of good modeling opportunities.


I'm sure lots of others will chime in with other good suggestions too. Perhaps a picture of your plans with some indications of the natural drainage would help the conversation along too. We like pictures here. Good luck!


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Trey,
I live in also Southern California (Corona) my layout is over 10 years old.....I use crusher fines that I get free at the rock quarry along side the haul road where they will dump excess if they hear that the CHP has set up a portable weigh station, and the quarry likes me to pick it up because they have to if I don't.

I did not use a trench just like the real RR I just use it to level the track.....after the rainy season I'll go around with a half of a 5 gallon bucket full of crusher fines and do any miner repair to the road bed, I don't know where your at but your welcome to come by and check out my RR......


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## USCTrey (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you for the detailed responses! 

Dean - I live in La Canada (between Pasadena and Glendale.) I had one quick question on your technique. Do you just lay the track on flat dirt with a little bit of crusher fines?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

First of all I support your desire to do free floating track. From all out customer feedback, personal experience, and observation this is the best installation method. In particular you have in that moderate climate still about temperature differentials of 60+ degrees which causes contraction and expansion and free floating will help the track to "automatically" adjust to it.

Second, it is extremely important to observe the water flow when it rains. I have a customer here in New England that made a few mistakes in his observation and washed out 2 or even 3 times parts of his road bed. Only after he had proper drainage installed did he successfully combat the symptoms.

Since you don't have any frost 3 inches should do fine, however, with potential earth movement (I learned in Texas that dry and wet soil differential cause quite some movements, hence they don't have basements which would otherwise crack). If that is a real danger in your are, then I think 6-8 inches would be better giving more room for compression by the other soil.

If you have crusher fines above the ground I will over time rain away. So I came accustomed to re-ballasting every single year. If you have inclines and declines the symptoms will show more than on level ground. To upfront minimize the effects, it is important to hose down the fines and compress them with a metal stamp, before you lay the track. Then use a last application of ballast covering the entire rail. Then I use a strong brush to t5o clear between the rails (lifting here and there for proper leveling) and that keeps the track nicely in place.

However, The German Gartenbahn Profi did a 2 year test on how to secure ballast more permanently test many different methods:

- Wood Glue (indoor and outdoor strength)
- Concrete Power (of one from or another)
- various dedicated glue components
- 2 component resin glue 

The test results showed that the most stable result was the two component resin which also withstood moss and other problem. Any form of wood glue disintegrated over time, and the concrete power method didn't last as long either.

In either case (while it lasted) you could use a strong leaf blower to blow of debris of your track, something that I can't really do (and boy oh boy I wish I could with all my pine needles) becasue the ballast is too light and blows away at the same time. However using 2 component resin will add an extra cost to the layout work ($45 for 50 pounds of ballast). I have not done it before, but this season I have a couple of repairs and will utilize this because none of my other methods held it in place and to be honest, I am sooooo sick and tired of the Pine needles (every two weeks several wheelbarrows full) and raking them remove always some ballast.


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Trey,
I've used both the trench and laying it directly on top of the ground methods and both work equally well here in Ohio. If you trench, then 2-3 inches is fine. If your going to lay it directly on the ground, I would suggest you first get the weed eater out and cut the grass right down to the dirt 5-6 inches wide. Lay your ground cloth on top, then start laying the roadbed, with what ever stone you end up using. For your end product, your roadbed should be 2-3 inches above the level ground. Plan on re ballasting every spring, but as the years go on, you will find your doing less and less as things settle in. I started out using #8 limestone for the base, then crusher finds on top of that, then topped it off with medium chicken grit. I stopped using the crusher finds after I found out how much of a mess it made after each rain. So now it's just #8 limestone then medium chicken grit, which actually is about the size of #9 limestone. 


Have fun.

Mark
*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com*


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep, I believe in the K.I.S.S. method...
We don't have the weather elements that most of the other parts of country have to deal with....

A weed barrier will not prevent weeds from growing in the ballast, and they will...Round- up does... 
You do have to have take into consideration water flow and plan for it...

You do need to make good electrical connections at all track joints either rail clamps (not the kind that come with the track) or soldered jumper wires, see my how-to 
Soldering track jumpers....


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Dean:
just for clarification, not all track comes with joiners (that's what you are referring to), but some flextrack comes with rail clamps (as you suggest to use).


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm in Orange County, CA and also lay our tracks in the ballast (#5 crusher fines). _Sunburst Rock Products_ on Live Oak Canyon in Irwindale is/used to be the cheapest source of #5 granite crusher fines in the area. I lay out the path and put a grade stake every 2' using a level. Where I want a grade, I'll tape something (e.g., a nut or piece of wood) of desired thickness to the end of the level, and adjust the grade until the level shows level. Then I dig a trench ~4" deep and ~6" across along the route, backfill it with fines, lay in the track (right over the stakes), and cover it with more fines, maybe tamping it, and watering it in. (Even if you don't tamp it, it settles in over time.)

If you would like to see our railroad in action, I am hosting an Open House this Sunday for the _Orange County Garden Railway Society_. These are potluck luncheons, but guests need not bring food. The meeting starts at 1:00 pm but viewing begins ~noon and you don't have to stick around for the meeting. E-mail me for address and directions if desired.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Axle; Time for the chain Saw.







I use to have the same problem but no more. Later RJD


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## USCTrey (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the help! 

Axel - Many people have recommended using some sort of glue in the crusher fines. My fear about it though is that I will want to change certain parts of the layout. Will the resin allow for the track to be removed with some force, or is it permanently stuck? 

Toddalin - I would like to come visit your layout, but I spent summer weekends up in Lake Arrowhead. I would be glad to come when summer is over, or during the week if you ever hold an open house then. 

Dean - I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do soldering. Someone recommended a mini arc welder or resistance solder. Is there a reason why you use 8-10 inches of wire? Is there minimum wattage to use for the normal iron? 

~Trey


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By USCTrey on 07 Jul 2011 12:44 AM 
Thank you for the detailed responses! 

Dean - I live in La Canada (between Pasadena and Glendale.) I had one quick question on your technique. Do you just lay the track on flat dirt with a little bit of crusher fines? 

Ahah! A neighbor! I'm down the road from you in Pasadena, enjoy them Rose Bowl fireworks?... but I'm also indoors so not of much help. I will say that when I did have my outdoor layout it was simply laid on top of a 2 inch bed of crushed 3/8" gravel and the tracks never went anywhere in the too few years it was running. I did use weedblock fabric also but its only of mixed sucess, a good bottle of Roundup is far more successfull at keeping the line weed free.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

We do open houses on weekends between June and Sept, but the railroad is always kept immaculate and you can come by on weekdays to see it if you like. It's just that trains won't be running, the fine detail parts and metal cars won't be out, and the water features won't be operating. The link will take you to our web site, though there have been many updates to the railroad since.

Tortoise & Lizard Bash Railway


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Dean - I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do soldering. Someone recommended a mini arc welder or resistance solder. Is there a reason why you use 8-10 inches of wire? Is there minimum wattage to use for the normal iron? 

The idea of using the wire was from someone who installed garden RR's for a living, and the length of the wire just makes it easier to install, allows the joint to flex a bit, plus it's easy to remove and unsolder if you change your mind, it has nothing to do with resistance....The_ physical_ size of the soldering iron is more important than the wattage, it has to have the mass in order to heat the track and wire before melting the plastic ties.

I do use the clamp that come with the track at the joints I install the wires on, _however_ clamps I use at any track that may need maintenance such as switches, bridges, etc. are "Split-Jaw" or similar type clamps they are not cheap but they do make maintenance easier...

Also again your welcome to stop anytime just send me a email....Corona isn't to far off the route from La Canada to Arrowhead....


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By USCTrey on 07 Jul 2011 01:07 PM 
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the help! 

Dean - I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do soldering. Someone recommended a mini arc welder or resistance solder. Is there a reason why you use 8-10 inches of wire? Is there minimum wattage to use for the normal iron? 

~Trey 



I use a 250/325 Watt Weller soldering gun and only make the jumpers as long as necessary. You need to "scratch" the track until it shines (dremel or just a screwdriver) and soldering paste helps.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I have personally never tried it yet, so I have to rely on the fine folks at the Gartenbahn Profi, but they claimed due to the mixture that you can easliy lift track and get it out. It doesn't surprise me that it should work. Because when I look at the mixture 250 ml component 1, 250 ml component 2, 250 ml water and 40 pounds of ballast, the coating is very, very thin, but substantial enough to hold the ballast together. This is of course different from pure 2 component resin.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Believe RJ sometimes I thoguth about it, but the tree is porbably older than you and me combined (+ everybody else in this thread). I just can't bring this over my heart


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## USCTrey (Jul 6, 2011)

I'll have to do a little more research into this resin stuff. And thanks for the information on soldering. 

Another question, this time about train yards. I want to have a fairly significant train yard in my lay out. Whats the best way of constructing it? I was thinking of leveling the area i want, then laying down some kind of weed resistant barrier, and then just putting crusher fines over the whole area. Does anyone have any other suggestions? 

Thanks again!


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

What you are describing is close to what I did on my last layout (and what I am doing on the new one if the landscaper ever gets here to put in the retaining wall!). I had 6" to 10" of topsoil removed to fix a drainage issue. We then put down crushed granite and had it mechanically compacted to roughly 4 inches in depth. No weed barrier required at that thickness. Weeds may grow in the future but they are doing so from above the granite, not below. I then lay the track over this and ballast.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I would recomend Concrete Road bed in a area where there might be large amounts of moving water. 

If not concrete road bed then I would dry mix Portland cement or Mortar/ stucco mix with the gravel you are going to put in the trench lined with weed barrior. Then when have it level and everyhing in place I would wet it to activate the cement/motar mix which ever you choose. 

JJ


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pterosaur on 07 Jul 2011 08:14 PM 
What you are describing is close to what I did on my last layout (and what I am doing on the new one if the landscaper ever gets here to put in the retaining wall!). I had 6" to 10" of topsoil removed to fix a drainage issue. We then put down crushed granite and had it mechanically compacted to roughly 4 inches in depth. No weed barrier required at that thickness. Weeds may grow in the future but they are doing so from above the granite, not below. I then lay the track over this and ballast. 

I did something like this only without the compaction, in our So Cal climate I wouldnt think concrete underlayment would be needed, unless like JJ mentions you get areas of alot of water flowing like natural drainage swales across the landscape, then concrete or PVC underpinning would be a good idea. My track never moved, just got dirty. If you can get ahold of a gravel compactor, that would lock the stuff together as good as any concrete, then as mentioned above just lay your track then add a final coat of ballast to lock it all together. I would still recommend some sort of weed barrier, if for no reason other than to prevent your ballast from getting sucked into the ground thru natural capilary action.


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## DennisB (Jan 2, 2008)

I have sent you a private message. Regards, Dennis.


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## peterpica2 (Oct 1, 2009)

You might also want to take a look at the Mainline Enterprise PVC roadbed system. From your topography description, it sounds like an ideal way (albeit expensive) to build your layout... especially if you'll be making revisions over time. Trenching is great and time-proven, but when modifications are anticipated down the road... well, umm. I found that while it was a costly solution to my problems, the Mainline system cost ended up being quite reasonable if one considers ease of installation and total time required from concept to operation. Of all the installations I've seen over the years, it appears to be the most 'idiot-proof' of them all.

Also try to keep your later years in mind with any layout design that may require periodic maintenance. I'm seeing more and more layouts constructed "waist-level" in anticipation of retirement physical limitations.

The Mainline Enterprise system was bought out by Split Jaw who's made substantial improvements to the initial design.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Re: Floating track. Here in Phoenix, I have decided to float my brass track on 3/8" crushed stones. Yes, the stones are a little big for realistic ballast, but due to the 80 degree temp swings we get here, and because rail expansion and contraction is a concern in such high temps, the track sits just nicely on these stones. My question is this: There are screws on the bottom of the track that look like they lock the rail into the ties/sleepers. Should I tighten them down or loosen them up. Should the rail move in the ties, or should the rail and ties move together?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you solder jumpers, leave some slack in the wire, otherwise they can pull apart and/or fracture as the rail expands and contracts. I had a friend who soldered the jumpers tight, and they would break once a year. Putting a small loop in them made them last forever. Solder is not a strong mechanical connection as any engineer will tell you. 

Greg


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

My apologies for not stating my question clearly enough, or being too dense to understand the answer. 

I'm not asking about the rail joiners and their screws. I bought USA Trains brass track. If you turn the track upside down and look underneath, there are screws that appear to lock the rail to the ties if you tighten them up. My question is regarding these screws. If I float my track on the ballast, should I keep these screws loose so the rail will slide inside the ties during expansion and contraction from the heat, or, should I tighten them down so the rail and ties move together?

I do like the suggestion here to solder jumper wires between track pieces, though, as that can't do anything but help with those pesky electrons.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You will get wildly different opinions. 

I've been reading the experiences of people putting track down for at least 10 years. 

I've also asked a lot of questions, besides having my own layout, and helping others. 

What i have learned is that you cannot fight the forces of physics. 

I normally see the followin progression from people that are starting out: 


1. lay track down on some hard surface. 
2. Track moves and comes apart so they fasten it down every so often. 
3. Track keeps moving, more screws or fasteners are employed to really try to stop it from moving. 
4. Friend says, your problem is the rails are fixed in the ties, remove all the screws underneath. 
5. Now ties stop moving but rails move and you get kinks in some spots and big gaps in others. 

At this point one of 2 things happens.. the guy lives with it, or free-floats the track like the real railroads do. 

One thing I have learned is that prototype railroads have reasons for everything, and have figured it out over the last 100 years (plus)... and that our scale is big enough that we can basically emulate the prototype. 

Basically your rail will expand and contract with heat. If you remove the screws, it allows the rail to slide, and since nothing in life is perfect or exactly the same everywhere, small differences in friction between the rail and ties make it so the gaps between rails do not stay evenly distributed. 

The prototype locks the rails to the ties... what this does is distribute the expansion and contraction evenly along the track. It does mean you cannot try to cement everything down. 

Having free floating ballast means you will have to add ballast and adjust things over time, because the track DOES move. 

I recommend leaving the screws in. 

Greg


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hey, Greg. Your 5 steps to enlightenment make sense to me. Copying the prototype makes sense. It never occurred to me that the entire track moves in the prototype and that the rail is locked to the ties/sleepers. Such an interesting thing to contemplate. I love this hobby. I hope I can afford it. And live long enough to enjoy it.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

It is highly recommend that the screws remain fasten to the rails if free floating track. In a sence this is simlilar to the 1 to1 RR which use rail anchors to control expansion and contraction. The ties with the screw in them acts as an anchor. One of the key things to remember is when ballasting you track to make sure you have the tie cribs full and a good shoulder of ballast. I to 1 RR usually use a 2 to1 ration for shoulder ballast. This equates to 1 foot of ballast out from the end of tie and 2 foot slope after. Makes for good drainage also. Once the ballast has settled and compacted your track is now stable and will move very little. 

I live in an area that I experience a wide range of temp. Often in the summer of above 100 degrees then down to the 20s in the winter. My track is all free floating and has maintained its alignment. I also surface and ballast parts of the RR twice a year. My RR experiences large down falls of rain the most at one time being 5 inches and then for days on end. I have never had my track wash out but I do have good drainage. Later RJD


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I had a friend in Denver who had his train in a very sunny, no shade, front yard. The track on his curves moved about 6", between summer and winter. 

Chuck


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like a lack of restraining the rails as I mentioned on how to do above. Later RJD


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