# Need help identifying 1/2 scale 4-6-2 live steamer



## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

I acquired this recently, any information is greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Huge-1-2-Ga..._793wt_679


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure what "1/2 scale" or 1/2 gauge" means. Generally speaking, and not considering narrow gauge, there's 3/4" scale (3/4" = 1 foot) which runs on 3-1/2" gauge track, 1" scale (1" = 1 foot) which runs on 4-3/4" gauge track, and 1_1/2" scale (1-1/2" = 1 foot) which runs on 7-1/2" gauge track. What is yours?


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 13 Sep 2013 02:48 PM 
I'm not sure what "1/2 scale" or 1/2 gauge" means. Generally speaking, and not considering narrow gauge, there's 3/4" scale (3/4" = 1 foot) which runs on 3-1/2" gauge track, 1" scale (1" = 1 foot) which runs on 4-3/4" gauge track, and 1_1/2" scale (1-1/2" = 1 foot) which runs on 7-1/2" gauge track. What is yours? 

I am clueless about live steam thats why I'm asking. I want to know who made it and how old it is. And the value, but only after its known for sure what it is. No guessers! Looking for solid info. thanks


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not sure what "1/2 scale" or 1/2 gauge" means 
As Dwight says, we need more info. What is the measurement between the backs of a pair of wheels? From that we can deduce the gauge. 

It is possibly a half-built "kit" from someone like Little Engines. I had/have a catalog somewhere. It may also be 3 1/" gauge from the size of the HO tender, which may be why it was abandoned - I understand there are few 3 1/2" gauge tracks left. 

And despite the enthusiasm of the seller (you?) I don't think it is very valuable (which is a relative statement anyway.) It will take a lot of work to get it either completed so it looks good, and even more work to persuade it to operate. 
The skills necessary to work on a model like that are dying out with the disappearance of machine shops and engineering companies. 
Give us a few more days and a little more info and we'll figure it out ;-)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Extrapolating from the 3" baseball...the drivers look to be about 3-1/2" to 3-3/4" in diameter. The gauge looks to be 1.5" or 1-3/4". 
That's looking at half the 3" baseball diameter and putting that up against the tender wheels....trying to adjust for parallax. 
Certainly not the almost five grand asked for. Just an opinion. 
Recall a guy who showed up at a clinic for the local club with his "live steamer". Big thing, about 5" gauge. One of the steamies said, oh, we'll make it work. 
The guy picked it up and put it on a cart to roll it out. 
"boiler" was hollow. Nothing in it at all. Cylinders were incomplete. Piping looked like left over plumbing tacked on. 
Come to find out it was a mailbox for some old guy. 

I don't know. You can pick up a decent complete steamer for less than he's asking....and nobody has any idea of what was done to it, who machined it, what the tolerances are. 
What are the extra two cylinders in the lower part of the saddle? 
They're tied together. Brakes? No shoes.


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

Appears to be of Little Engines origin, either 1/2" or 3/4" scale, which would make it 2.5" or 3.5" gauge. As others said, need a bit more info. Might try posting over on the Chaski site- the big scale guys will be able to id it, especially if it is a LE. 

Most LE product that I've seen has a "L E" cast into the front of the cylinder saddle, but that's in 1"-1.5" scales. Not sure if they did it in the smaller scales. I'll see if I can locate a pic of one.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Looks like a 2 1/2" gauge not yet completed scratch built (with aid of castings) model of average competant standard. In my view $4750 is way too much money for what it is and what's not included........like a boiler ans all fittings! 
David M-K


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

Posted By Ray Cadd on 13 Sep 2013 04:12 PM 
Appears to be of Little Engines origin, either 1/2" or 3/4" scale, which would make it 2.5" or 3.5" gauge. As others said, need a bit more info. Might try posting over on the Chaski site- the big scale guys will be able to id it, especially if it is a LE. 

Most LE product that I've seen has a "L E" cast into the front of the cylinder saddle, but that's in 1"-1.5" scales. Not sure if they did it in the smaller scales. I'll see if I can locate a pic of one. Thanks, a guy on another forum says he thinks this is a part completed H.J. Coventry President class Pacific. 
With that information, I did a search and found this article which is calling my model the oldest and best live steam, from the 20s or 30s. That is, if it is the model. 

http://www.friendsmodels.com/otherd...tives.html

My model does have that VERY old look to it...

edit - my model is indeed 1/2 scale by the way.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

if it is "1/2 scale" then it is one half the size of the original object and should be written as "1:2". A "1/2 scale" model of 100-ft long locomotive in the "real world" would be 50-ft long in 1/2 scale. 

If it meant "1/2-inch scale" then it means the scale is 1/2-inch = 1-ft so the "Scale:" is 1:24 when written properly, which is a common scale in "G"/Garden railroading on 1.75-in. gauge track, which makes the track a model of real world track with a gauge of 3.5-ft.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, that's cute... I guess it does happen sometimes where the system double posts! Sorry.


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes, sorry, 1/2"


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I think it's 2-1/2" gauge but it's unlike this 'Little Engines' 1:24 Pacific, so maybe some other builder. 

Ebay - LITTLE ENGINES PACIFIC 

Yes, it does look like the H.J. Coventry President Washinton P7 class Pacific. 


Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 13 Sep 2013 08:42 PM 
Hey, that's cute... I guess it does happen sometimes where the system double posts! Sorry.

I do that sometimes. When I click submit, the page sits there like a stunned mullet and gives no response for ages so I click it again in doubt to get some life. There ends up being two posts.









Andrew


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

Posted By Garratt on 14 Sep 2013 02:45 AM 
I think it's 2-1/2" gauge but it's unlike this 'Little Engines' 1:24 Pacific, so maybe some other builder. 

Ebay - LITTLE ENGINES PACIFIC 

Yes, it does look like the H.J. Coventry President Washinton P7 class Pacific. 


Andrew
Thanks!!! You are the second person to confirm that this probably is the Coventry President!  Exciting stuff.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If you study the link you have above of the H.J. Coventry cylinder castings of some of the 3-1/2" gauge engines they look very similar to the one you have advertised.








In the image of the green 2-1/2" gauge P7, the motion detail look the same as does the brake set-up although it has had a slide valve conversion.

Andrew


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

Posted By Garratt on 14 Sep 2013 09:51 AM 
If you study the link you have above of the H.J. Coventry cylinder castings of some of the 3-1/2" gauge engines they look very similar to the one you have advertised.








In the image of the green 2-1/2" gauge P7, the motion detail look the same as does the brake set-up although it has had a slide valve conversion.

Andrew Yes indeed, thanks for confirmation.  So now the big question, how exactly rare and valuable are these?


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Rarity - Fairly rare. You won't exactly go out and trip over them but I'm sure there are some out there. For value, you might get some different replies but personally I'd be really hard pressed to have spenti that much on a proven finished, running example.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If it meant "1/2-inch scale" then it means the scale is 1/2-inch = 1-ft so the "Scale:" is 1:24 when written properly, which is a common scale in "G"/Garden railroading on 1.75-in. gauge track, which makes the track a model of real world track with a gauge of 3.5-ft. 
Semp, 

Actually, as it is a standard gauge model, then the gauge would be 2.35". Checking the link that Kevin provided, they were using 2.5" gauge in those days. Most of the UK modelers were in gauge-3, which is 1:22.5 (very close to 1/2" scale) and uses 2.5" gauge track. There are many modellers in the UK using this, and in fact they recently commissioned a 2.5" gauge live steamer from Wuhu. 

For value, you might get some different replies but personally I'd be really hard pressed to have spenti that much on a proven finished, running example 
I'm with you, Justin. The amount of work - including buying/fabricating a boiler for it [and you know what that takes] - is huge. 

Maybe, to give Kevin some idea, you could estimate the cost of supplying a boiler for a 2.5" gauge pacific ? 
A quick google for "pacific by H J Coventry" produced useful info, including this pic:


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, finding a track to run on is a problem in this scale/gauge, unless a buyer builds his own. It is a forgotten gauge; even back in 1962 when we were starting construction at the New Jersey Live Steamers, it was decided to ignore 2 1/2" gauge, building our track dual gauge for 3 1/2" and 4 3/4". When we expanded, it was into 7 1/4" and then G1. No more thought was ever given to 2 1/2". 

I believe the Montreal Live steamers still have a 2 1/2" track; anyone know of any others out there? 

H J Coventry's drawings and castings were first rate--I have built from them. However, for the model for sale being discussed here, I feel the asking price is far out of line. But, let the market decide. 

Larry (an old f--t in the hobby)


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## kevincal (Sep 13, 2013)

There is no sense at all in starting the price low on ebay... I am a train guy, I like trains, Im not EAGER to sell it. I had no idea what it is, so played it safe and started high. That is the smart thing to do. This thing IS very old AND very rare. There is no denying that. It doesnt matter if nobody runs this on track, there must not be many of these left out there in the world... It is a museum or display piece now. It is one of the very first original American made style live steamers. You cant get much better than that. Not only that but the quality is really great. I already knew I would get tons of nay sayers, it is really annoying. Why cant people in this world just be happy for people instead of always shooting them down. Anyone in my shoes would do the exact same thing, if they are smart.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this topic has served its purpose. The forums aren't the place to sell stuff anyway, and I believe the gentleman has already found out what he wanted to know.


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