# Aristo Craft Classics rolling stock out of production



## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Sept 18, 2011

Hi Guys:

Ok, so the Aristo Craft 1:24 rolling stock is now out of production. Not enough customers.
There is limited HLW1:24 product available including their latest new Forney.
The LGB 1:22.5 is still available in repaints but with no new future product likely.

This leaves only the Bachmann 1:20.3 future locos and the Accucraft 1:20.3 locos, coaches and freight.

So I guess, 1:20.3 is now the narrow gauge standard requiring large diameter curves and lots of layout space.

What percentage of the hobbyists have the room for 1:20.3 curves and the storage space required for 1:20.3 locos and rolling stock?

What is the future of large scale narrow gauge given that 1:24 and 1:22.5 are, or are on the way, out of production?

I would like to buy the Accucraft J&S coach product but the physical size is prohibitive.

Future of large scale narrow gauge?


Norman








09-06-2011, 09:51 PM 
 LewisPolk







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Aristo-Craft Trains President








Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Irvington,NJ, USA
Posts: 2,508 










Dear All,

We have discontinued the full line of Classic's due to poor sales. We are remaking the C-16 in BumbleBee paint schemes only as frankly these were the only good selling ones. They should be back in stock near the end of the year, but they will no longer come with the Caboose. The last drive with the rubber belt drive worked perfectly and the drive is not changing. We had also changed to a diecast wheel and side rods, which also will not change.

All the best,
Lewis Polk 


09-06-2011, 09:51 PM 
 LewisPolk







vbmenu_register("postmenu_169538", true); 
Aristo-Craft Trains President








Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Irvington,NJ, USA
Posts: 2,508 










Dear All,

We have discontinued the full line of Classic's due to poor sales. We are remaking the C-16 in BumbleBee paint schemes only as frankly these were the only good selling ones. They should be back in stock near the end of the year, but they will no longer come with the Caboose. The last drive with the rubber belt drive worked perfectly and the drive is not changing. We had also changed to a diecast wheel and side rods, which also will not change.

All the best,
Lewis Polk


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I never really considered Aristocraft to be in the 1:24 scale "G" space anyway. 
They just pick up some 1:24 scale tooling from Delton at the auction in 1996 and created the "Delton Classics" line. 

If you're into 1:24 scale, the USA-Trains American line is that scale and they just brought out a bunch of new cars, but in general the other scales make more sense with 45mm gauge track 

1:20.3 to represent 3 ft narrow gauge 
1:22.5 to represent Meter narrow gauge 
1:29 to more or less represent standard gauge. 

I didn't think 1:20.3 scale requires more layout room - just larger clearances since the equipment is a bit larger. 
But since it's narrow gauge equipment which in 1:1 is quite a bit smaller than standard gauge 1:1 equipment, the larger scale shouldn't make that much difference. 

Knut


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Norman, I share your concerns. I have seen my interests in small quirky engines and rolling stock give way to ever larger items that require ever larger curves and cost ever more money until for me if I was approaching the hobby today, if I looked at the layouts featured in GR, even the "small layout" entries, the items for sale in the rag, and the advice most newbies receive online, I would have to conclude that I needed space for 10' minimum curves, needed to be ready to fork out between $500 to$2K for an engine and have room for rolling stock each ranging from 18" to a yard in lenth ! 

Might as well invest in Ride On scale...based on all that it takes about the same space commitment and costs. 

Luckily I've been in the mix long enough to already know how and where to get my goodies still...but for space challenged newbies the message is bring an acre and a trust fund before you start. It can be really hard for them.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been running a Bachmann 1:20 4-4-0 with my fleet of aging Delton C-16's with much success. Both the 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 types are the same size and are not all that much bigger than the Deltons. Too there are many instances of 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 types being a bit larger than small 2-8-0 types so the small size disparity is somewhat prototypical. I have not had any problems with either curves, switches or clearances regarding the 4-4-0 although I do not use ultra sharp curves or switches. I'm sure it would have no trouble with a #4 switch. 

Check them out. They look great with 1:22/1:24 rolling stock too.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

You're forgetting that Bachmann has an entire regular "Big Hauler" line of large scale rolling stock scaled in 1:22.5 with truck mounted couplers and entirely compatible with LGB and the rest! That, combined with all of the stuff on ebay and at train shows or on consignment in train stores should be enough to keep anyone satisfied for quite some time! Flat cars, tank cars, box cars, reefers, gondolas, cattle cars, baggage, coach, combine and observation cars as well as cabooses.... and that's just with Bachmann! We've had it too easy these past 20 years or so.
In the 80's there wasn't a lot of _anything_ so large scalers had to get creative! Well, by the 90's we were getting pretty much what we wanted and by the turn of the century, we had just about everything we needed. Blaming 1:20.3 has become something of a "catch-all" for 1:22.5/1:24 enthusiasts but in reality, the rolling stock situation was already pretty much saturated. There might be detail improvements such as metal weelsets and the like but any "new" items would be locomotives! HLW and Bachmann (and to a lesser extent LGB/PIKO) have continued this throughout the past decade. 
If you want it OTB then you're probably right about there being a drought. You may have to get creative with some paint and decals but the basics are available! Everything else is up to the hobbyist and we have a lot more options than we did 25 years ago! The C-16 was a nice engine but it was an upgraded re-issue that was pretty darn expensive considering! The 1:24 rolling stock had been out of production for seven years before they brought _some_ of it back. This isn't the first time. It _may _be the last time though! If you want something OTB, I'd suggest you keep your eyes open for it to come up on one of the after market sites and buy it! Otherwise, I'd advise brushing up on your modeling skills...


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

1/24 on "G" gauge track was wrong from the get-go.
As modelers become more and more astute to scale, it was bound to disappear.
If Delton would have made 1/24 track to go with the rolling stock and locos, 
and gauged the trucks and drivers correctly, it may still be around.
(It would have been 1 1/2" wide at the rail top.)
You could put a lot more in a smaller space, and make great indoor layout as well.
This is assuming they wanted to build 3' NG models, which a C-16 is.
1/24 SG models would have a little bit wider track, obviously.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

But Steve, when was the last time you saw a layout published that featured Big Haulers? I can think of only one recently and none in the last few years...and sure theres still smaller stuff on Ebay but the problem with buying used is that there is NO warranty. Given the track record of LS reliablity with some manufacturers that can be a gamble when buying used.

What I'm getting worried about is potential for the future automatic engineering of smaller stuff for wide 8' dia curves when they could easily be engineered to run on smaller diameter curves. Aristos Connie, its the SAME SIZE as Bachmanns Connie, but where Bmann's has been engineered to run on as small as 5' dia, even with mods R1 according to TOC, the Aristo needs a MINIMUM of 8' and with the production Snafus maybe even broader or risk derailment. My concern is that the major manufacturers will eventually just accept 8' as the defacto minimum radius and everthing that comes down the line will just be engineered for that, Accucraft/AMS already does.
I realize that the hobby has changed since I started and that my way of doing it is on the decline, but I worry about the future if the basic prerequisites are a huge chuck of real estate and having deep pockets. That automaticly limits participation and limits growth, especially for guys like me in urban/suburban areas where yards are often very small to start with and usually dont have alot of spare cash to spend on hobbies. 

Is the future rural 1/2 acre size layouts with trust fund cash flows? or will the average joe still be able to enjoy outdoor railroading on a modest budget? the answer is about 10 years out from my perspective.


To me it depends on what happens during this recession, which direction, which demographic the major manufacturers will try to attract, Bachmann has given some indication with the Indy and the Lyn, which were surprising choices given the huge Mallet and the K of recent years, maybe their slackluster sales finally showed just how small the trust fund crowd really is. But Aristo in offering the Connie with full flanged drivers despite 100's (maybe 1000's) of mainline Connies having blind center drivers, showed they are more akin to giving the "wider is better" crowd what they want even if that excludes a good chunk of the market who's already built or planned layouts simply WILL NOT accomodate 8' or wider curves... I frankly still shake my head when I read someone being advised to use the widest curves allowable even if that means the intended layout would end up being a giant boring dull oval. Wider is NOT better if it yeilds a dull as dishwater layout.


OK I'm done rambling, yeah its an old song but it still holds true


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jebouck on 19 Sep 2011 09:05 AM 
1/24 on "G" gauge track was wrong from the get-go.
As modelers become more and more astute to scale, it was bound to disappear.
If Delton would have made 1/24 track to go with the rolling stock and locos, 
and gauged the trucks and drivers correctly, it may still be around.
(It would have been 1 1/2" wide at the rail top.)
You could put a lot more in a smaller space, and make great indoor layout as well.
This is assuming they wanted to build 3' NG models, which a C-16 is.
1/24 SG models would have a little bit wider track, obviously.


It might be wrong from a rivet counters point of view but for those that like to just run trains or are new to trains 1:24 scale works great. I use 1:22 and 1:24 scale on my RR and to me it looks good and serves its purpose. Its affordable and does not require large rad curves. Not only that but you might be less likley to get more people into large scale if you only have 1:20 scale. 1:24 scale is good for someone just getting into large scale. If that person at some point has the space and money and wants to move to the 1:20 scale then they can.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the reason for retiring the old Delton stuff wasn't because nobody wanted it, but because it wasn't selling at that price point in this economy (.... and it wasn't really the direction the company wanted to continue to go anyway.) 

Once my personal economy improves (hah!) I'll be making more budget friendly mayhem in 1:24 -- unfortunately, that won't be much help to the folks that don't see my stuff, or are unable/unwilling to build/bash. 

Large scale has always enjoyed/suffered a multiple personality disorder. Competing scales, competing schools of thought, and the ever increasing cost of entry probably mean it won't ever be as strong as it could be. And yes, the 'bigger is better', and 'my way is best' crowds aren't doing the newbs any favors, BUT there are still a lot of ways to enjoy the hobby in small spaces and on small budgets. Just because the industry and well heeled hobbyists are pushing Bentleys Rolls and Mercedes doesn't mean there aren't any good Chevies or Fords still out there. Off the top of my head - the re-introduced Indy, the HLW Mack, the Aristo 0-4-0 are all good entry level items suitable for small layouts.... with plenty of bashing potential, too. 

Honestly, except for the wood hopper, the ex-Delton stuff was just a tad largish to really look good on r-1 and r-2 layouts anyway. Unfortunately though, lack of new production WILL push the prices of used stuff upwards, probably not LGB post meltdown upwards, but definitely "don't expect bargains unless they're broken" upwards.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't forget the 2-4-2T and I'm sure there are still plenty of 0-4-0 side and saddle tankers left! Going over to HLW, there's the Princess and Duchess as well as their Americans (is Big John still in production?) Out of production issues are readily available at train shows (or were at the last one I attended.) Any of these will navigate R1 curves! Don't forget that Bachmann's Climax is a _very_ small 1:20.3 and even it's 2-6-6-2, while modeling a rather large prototype, will pull 1:22.5 rolling stock without looking wildly out of proportion. 
As to the Big Hauler 10-Wheeler, have you taken a good look at the latest version? Take your pick! They _all_ look nice!! They are perfect for bashing fodder and now that the drivetrain has been improved yet again, they really are about the best value possible! I _"Rio Grande-ized" _my Annie and it has become one of my favorites to run! If you rip out that pitiful sound unit and replace it with a digital sound system and an R/C control unit, you then have something pretty neat _and_ it will run on R1 curves! All I'm saying is that there's still a lot out there and the future isn't as bleak as it might appear.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

But Steve, when was the last time you saw a layout published that featured Big Haulers? 
August 2011 _Garden Railways_. And Joe and Annie Mellen's railroad a few months before that, Dutton Foster's railroad prior to that--all very well established _specifically_ 1:22.5/1:24 railroad. Ray Dunakin's 1:22.5 railroad will be in the next GR Those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. They're out there, and they're being done very very well despite the growth of 1:20.3. 

If you want the "smaller" stuff of 1:22.5/1:24, you're not going to be lacking of choice or opportunity, even if the manufacturers stopped producing altogether. True, there's "nothing new" coming down the line, and that could arguably get a bit stale, but look at the variety of locos available in 1:22.5/1:24 from Hartland, LGB, Bachmann, and Aristo/Delton, and you've got a much wider selection than the 1:20.3 crowd. (That, and you can also draw from some of the smaller 1:20 locos to fit in well with your 1:22 stuff.) I really don't see how you could get "bored" in those scales. I'm still having fun building/rebuilding locos for my dad's railroad, which is also 1:22.5/1:24. The stuff's fairly cheap, plentiful, and can fit in much tighter spaces than its 1:20.3 cousins. So long as the first two remain in place (and I have no reason to doubt they will), the future of 1:22.5/1:24 is pretty secure. 

Later, 

K


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

I run Annies and in 1:20 I run a Bachmann Shay and a Climax. All are happy on R1 curves and my layout is smaller than most. No worries! 

Best, 
TJ


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Wandering even further off topic, I've often thought that a 'sticky' on the beginner forum with links to those helpful 'where do I start?' type articles would be a nice feature... Kind of like the 'stores' one in the general forum.... not that some folks would read them, but at least it would be a quick reference resource if they wanted to...

Basic stuff like this never really becomes outdatedI'm using my own shtuff as an example because I had them bookmarked, not because they are 'best')

http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/budget.html
http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/gauge.html 

http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/themes.html
http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/details.html 


Pages with stuff minimum radius for various locos, an objective rundown of the plus and minus of various control systems, even a primer on basic DC wiring - in plain language would be really helpful to the hobby - and for the patient folks trying to 'splain it all again, and again, and again....


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 19 Sep 2011 04:41 AM 
You're forgetting that Bachmann has an entire regular "Big Hauler" line of large scale rolling stock scaled in 1:22.5 with truck mounted couplers and entirely compatible with LGB and the rest! That, combined with all of the stuff on ebay and at train shows or on consignment in train stores should be enough to keep anyone satisfied for quite some time! 



Yeah, but the Big Hauler cars are pretty poor quality compared to the AC/Delton "Classic" cars -- especially the box cars. Big Hauler box cars are crap.

What I'll miss most of all are the Delton freight trucks, which are much better looking than Bachmann's. I had planned to eventually scratchbuild some rolling stock, but I need decent trucks, and I had been hoping to use the Delton trucks. I don't know of anyone else who sells decent looking trucks in sizes under 1:20.3. 

When you start figuring in the size of buildings, 1:20.3 takes up a lot more space than 1/24th; and there's very little in the way of detail parts and accessories (vehicles, etc) available for 1:20.3.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

There is someone on ebay who sells all sorts of original Delton parts, including the trucks without the wheels. 

Larry


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Crazy on only doing the bumblebee fugly paint, I liked the green/iron ones myself.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Ray Dunakin on 19 Sep 2011 05:37 PM 
Posted By Steve Stockham on 19 Sep 2011 04:41 AM 
You're forgetting that Bachmann has an entire regular "Big Hauler" line of large scale rolling stock scaled in 1:22.5 with truck mounted couplers and entirely compatible with LGB and the rest! That, combined with all of the stuff on ebay and at train shows or on consignment in train stores should be enough to keep anyone satisfied for quite some time! 



Yeah, but the Big Hauler cars are pretty poor quality compared to the AC/Delton "Classic" cars -- especially the box cars. Big Hauler box cars are crap.

What I'll miss most of all are the Delton freight trucks, which are much better looking than Bachmann's. I had planned to eventually scratchbuild some rolling stock, but I need decent trucks, and I had been hoping to use the Delton trucks. I don't know of anyone else who sells decent looking trucks in sizes under 1:20.3. 

When you start figuring in the size of buildings, 1:20.3 takes up a lot more space than 1/24th; and there's very little in the way of detail parts and accessories (vehicles, etc) available for 1:20.3.

Ray I have you though about the HW trucks? Not sure if thats what you are looking for but I use them and they work well. Just a thought. 

I also wonde, since Aristo is doing away with the classic line are they going to do away with the Rogers? I like the Rogers and have two of them one of the older REA and the newest. I know a lot of people dont like them but they have been around for a long time and the price is good especially trainworlds sale price, It says it is 1:29 scale but a read someone did the dimensions on it and it is closer to 1:22 scale. I use it in 1:22 and 1:24 and it looks good to my eyes.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

This guy has 10 pairs of Delton freight trucks for $24, is always on ebay.
Delton Freight Trucks


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I picked up an old REA Rogers and upgraded it into something I could live with. By changing out the smokestack and some other details and adding a regular tender (_not_ the slopeback one that came on the Aristo version), I was able to modify it into a credible 1:22 saddle tanker! (Also, I'm nowhere_ near_ the same league as Kevin when it comes to modifying engines! This just proves that, if you want something that isn't available, you _can _get what you want anyway! All it takes is you deciding to take the first step!


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 

Nice trestle! 

Best, 
TJ


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Good work Steve, I always thought that loco could do better with a different tender.


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