# QSI drifting and BEMF sound changing - it works fine



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Recently I mentioned in a thread why I prefer the capabilities of the QSI over a Phoenix, in that the QSI reads the actual load on the motor and adjusts sounds accordingly, whereas all that the Phoenix can do is use the speed it was commanded to.

How stuff works: 


So, the Phoenix is at speed 20, and is then told to go to 40, it knows it must be accelerating. That's all it can "know"

The QSI reads the load on the motor, and also knows where it was commanded to, and the momentum setting. Taking all of this into account as the loco actually accelerates, it reads the increased BEMF voltage from the motor and makes the exhaust "Bark" for example.

Now, how does this affect things? One big distinction is going up a grade.

If the speed commanded is 40, and the locomotive goes up a grade, EVEN IF IT SLOWS DOWN, the Phoenix cannot determine this, it just goes 40. It has no way of knowing anything else.


When this happens with a QSI on board, the Back ElectroMotive Force increases, the QSI reads it, and makes the loco sounds "labor"


Likewise, going down a grade, the Phoenix still thinks it's going 40 on the flat and level, the QSI senses no load and "drifts".

(please note other decoders like Zimo, ESU, Massoth have this capability also).

*These are the big differences that you can hear that I was talking about.*

Well, in a rather emotional thread, another poster went completely 180 degrees out of phase with this information, stating that the QSI did not work, and the Phoenix actually did what the QSI claimed. 


It now turns out that *his *QSI had a very old firmware version, over a year old apparently, it was so old that the feature of drifting was not even in the firmware. 


I just want to set the record straight, and by all means, verify this for yourself, but when making statement about functionality between equipment, make sure someone is not working with *antique *software on EITHER pieces of hardware.


Regards, Greg 


p.s. I don't get any compensation from this, I waited many years to get a LS decoder that really mirrored prototype sounds after hearing a Lenz and DIETZ combination doing this many years ago demonstrated by Debbie Ames. So now the technology is here, I'm a happy guy.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg, while I agree with all of your statements, and I agree that the Phoenix board cannot detect "loads" etc., one can simulate thos effects to some effect. For instance, when I am decelerating, as I gradually bring the voltage down, the Pheonix does in fact "drift". In addition when going up a grade, I can either command the Phoenix to go into "load" mode, which does produce the "bark" you refer to, or one can use a reed switch and a magnet to automatically create this condition when going up a grade.

I agree that it is not the same as the effect that QSI can and does produce, but it does give a reasonable "simulation" of that effect.

Ed


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This is overwhelmingly the thing that sold me on QSI--if you let the train run, you don't get that machine gun effect, where the chuff is constantly the same. I like the way it goes quiet in some places, then comes roaring back. It's a very cool effect, and it doesn't get irritating that way other sound cards did, for me anyway. I haven't tried it on any of the other sound decoders (zimo, massoth, ESU) yet.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to piggyback (pun intended!) on what Greg said... I don't have a layout, so I set up an oval of Aristocraft track, 10' curves in my driveway, to run my K's. Since these are the first locos I've ever owned with sound or DCC, I've spent a lot of time playing and experimenting with them. I've calibrated the chuffs using the instructions on Greg's website, and I've got them very, very close. 

My loop sits across an expansion joint, and the concrete goes in different directions. so one side is uphill on a pretty heavy grade, while the other side goes downhill much more gently. The exhaust chuff is loud and pronounced when starting up and gets VERY loud and pronounced on the heaviest part of the grade, increasing even more on the curve. When the train crests the hill, it settles down until it starts downhill, and the chuff disappears and becomes more of a metal "clanking" sound since the rods aren't really pushing, but are just along for the ride. Same when slowing to a stop. 

One thing that confused me was that the exhaust sometimes became very different, and seemed to be only two chuffs per turn of the drivers instead of four, but after reading the instructions, that's just the "open cylinder cocks" sound, which eliminates the chuffing to a large extent. 

When I got the sound cards, it seemed they made just a lot of random noise, until I did some reading and watched some YouTube videos of steam locomotives, including ex-D&RGW 464. Now, I can pick out the individual sounds, the whine of the generator, the air compressor, the blow downs, the injectors, the Safety pop-offs, the air releases, the fireman shovelling coal, etc. 

I only have a couple of minor quibbles with it, I'm not getting the brake squal sounds to work quite like I want them to, and they automatically arm over 40 mph - my K's never go much over 25 mph. Top sped is 30 mph. It should be much lower. The other thing is that the Blow-down only works when stopped, but mountain steam locomotives often did a blow down when cresting a hill. It makes sense, if you think about it, because you're fire is up, your steam pressure is up, and you're not going to use any power to go down the hill. Not to mention the fact that the water in boiler just went from the back of the boiler towards the front. 

I don't get compensation either, and BTW, I've NEVER owned ANY other sound cards besides these two QSI's for my K's, so I can't compare them with anything else. Even though they might be better... 

Thanks, Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Robert, do you have the programmer? If not, I can do it for you if you want to send me your QSI... 

No other way to change the "arming speed" I'm afraid... 

I read the manual (!!) and the blow down sound is only set to be in neutral, you can change this with a CV to happen all the time, and you can also assign it to a function key. 

Ed: yes, if you manually control the Phoenix, you can simulate the load, of course the QSI has this feature also, but it's the sophistication of having every loco being able to do this automatically, not having to manually play with it to make it more prototypical. 

Don't get me wrong, I think the Phoenix sound files are just a little bit better than most of the QSI ones, but if you have to manually play with it, then it's not nearly the same feature. 

Also, remember the actual load of the train will control the sounds on the QSI, while you cannot have a magnet set "40 car train" and a different magnet set "100 car train" on the Phoenix. 

Just way more sophisticated.

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the offer, Greg, I may do that, I was kind of hoping to find someone in Denver with a programmer, I hate to have my locos down, because with the weather here, I never know when I'll get a chance to run them. I'd buy one, but it seems kind of silly since I only have two decoders, and it will probably be a long time before I'll need another. Unless someone comes out with a C-19 or something like that (fingers crossed!). 

I have the blow down set to the Neutral side of F6, since the Dynamics effect is useless for me, and the FR side of F6 set to the grade crossing signal. 

I agree with Greg, without making ANY changes whatsoever, a light K-27 sounds WAY different than one with a half dozen cars and a caboose behind it. And, something I've NEVER been able to do EVER with any trains, any scales, is run a front end loco with an end of train helper! They synchronize PERFECTLY, and when you crest the hill, the lead loco drops power almost immediately, while the rear one continues pushing at "full power" and slacks off gently as the train goes over the top. 

Also, and it's hard to explain, QSI has the "Heavy Load" effect, which I haven't really learned how to use effectively yet. Seems the more I play with them, the more features I discover. 

I'm still thinking about putting the transistor in one of them and trying the optical sensors, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to "undo" if I don't like it, and the transistors are cheap enough. 

If anyone - or Greg - wants me to, I'll take some video and throw it up on YouTube next week with the sound effects of the K's. 

I can't speak to whether Phoenix sound files are better or not, again, I've never owned one, and I've never heard one either. I've heard the Tsunami on the test track at Caboose Hobbies, in an HO locomotive, and the impression I came away with is that the Fireman must be shovelling coal with a 300 pound shovel to make that much noise! I did like the sounds of the reverse gear moving, and the whistle effects on starting and stopping that the QSI doesn't have, but OTOH, doesn't the ENGINEER blow the whistle and ring the bell? 

Which is also on my pet peeve list: The whistle and bell have a bit too much delay in them for my liking.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't have any disagreement with what you've said Greg. And, if you want to just "run" your train, and watch it travel around your railroad, then the QSI will provide the variations we are talking about, and the Phoenix will not. I, though, continually "run" my trains, adjusting the throttle to slow down in towns, speed up, then slow down for crossings, etc., so I am usually "working" the transmitter. And as I said prviously, I recognize you can only "simulate" the variations in load, etc., but it is definitely better than just listening to the engine go round and round with the same sound all the time. That was all I was trying to say. I did not mean to imply that you have "real" feedback with the Phoenix and any other decoder/receiver. I really like the Phoenix sounds, and so I personally can live with having to "work at" getting variations with load etc. That is just my personal preference.

Ed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Robert, I've got the programmer here (and have now successfully modernized the "antique" firmware on my board.  ) I'm on the east end of Centennial by Quincy Reservoir. PM me, and we can get together to program your locos. 

To follow up on Greg's post, the issue was with my particular board. Who knew 1-year-old firmware was out of date? I just reprogrammed the board tonight, so I haven't had a chance to get it out on the railroad to give it a proper shake-down run. Just from comparing the test-track responses, there's a marked improvement, so I'm anxious to see how it does. 

Later, 

K


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By rdamurphy on 19 Feb 2011 05:47 PM 
Thanks for the offer, Greg, I may do that, I was kind of hoping to find someone in Denver with a programmer, I hate to have my locos down, because with the weather here, I never know when I'll get a chance to run them. I'd buy one, but it seems kind of silly since I only have two decoders, and it will probably be a long time before I'll need another. Unless someone comes out with a C-19 or something like that (fingers crossed!). 

I have the blow down set to the Neutral side of F6, since the Dynamics effect is useless for me, and the FR side of F6 set to the grade crossing signal. 

I agree with Greg, without making ANY changes whatsoever, a light K-27 sounds WAY different than one with a half dozen cars and a caboose behind it. And, something I've NEVER been able to do EVER with any trains, any scales, is run a front end loco with an end of train helper! They synchronize PERFECTLY, and when you crest the hill, the lead loco drops power almost immediately, while the rear one continues pushing at "full power" and slacks off gently as the train goes over the top. 

Also, and it's hard to explain, QSI has the "Heavy Load" effect, which I haven't really learned how to use effectively yet. Seems the more I play with them, the more features I discover. 

I'm still thinking about putting the transistor in one of them and trying the optical sensors, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to "undo" if I don't like it, and the transistors are cheap enough. 

If anyone - or Greg - wants me to, I'll take some video and throw it up on YouTube next week with the sound effects of the K's. 

I can't speak to whether Phoenix sound files are better or not, again, I've never owned one, and I've never heard one either. I've heard the Tsunami on the test track at Caboose Hobbies, in an HO locomotive, and the impression I came away with is that the Fireman must be shovelling coal with a 300 pound shovel to make that much noise! I did like the sounds of the reverse gear moving, and the whistle effects on starting and stopping that the QSI doesn't have, but OTOH, doesn't the ENGINEER blow the whistle and ring the bell? 

Which is also on my pet peeve list: The whistle and bell have a bit too much delay in them for my liking. 


That would be great if you could put it up on youtube. I was just having a conversation with Greg in another forum about sound and had said I wasn't considering QSI because I didn't like any of the samples I'd heard/seen on their site and on youtube, and I'm specifically interested in their Rio Grande NG sounds, so if you can get a good recording, I'm interested to hear it.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

EBT, I will definitely take you up on that! Should I bring along the Mudhens or just the decoder boards? 

TJH, I'll see if I have any good sound recordings from what I've done, if not I'll see if I can put something together featuring the sound cards... 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, like Phoenix, ESU, Zimo, Massoth, QSI always recommends checking their web site for the latest software and firmware. EVERYONE makes this recommendation. I have a computer and it tells me to check for upgrades. My brand new bluetooth headset came with the admonition to check for new firmware. 

You may have been given the board 1 year ago, but that has nothing to do with the manufacture date. 

Just emphasizing that people should always follow the manufacturer's recommendations to check the site. They know that by the time you get the package, the software is already old. 

The first thing Axel told me to do when I got my decoder was to check the web site for the new software. 

So, this should not be surprising at all, and the manufacturer should not be blamed. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree in principle, Greg, but most things don't requre a $100 piece of hardware to do the firmware/software upgrades... 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, and unfortunately, they do...

Phoenix programmer for updating firmware and changing sounds - extra cost
Zimo for same - extra cost
QSI - same
ESU - same
C.T. Elektronik - same 

And I'm sure the Massoth is the same, but I don't have that programmer.

When you buy a sound board, you normally ask for the latest firmware, and most dealers like Electric & Steam Modelworks have the latest and will program for you.


After several years, there are normally updates, new features, etc. that would cause you to buy a programmer, or send it back to your dealer for updates.

But the extra cost programmer for firmware/feature updates and major changes to sounds is standard for ALL of our sound boards.

Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand completely. Personally, I like to play with things, experiment. I'd love to use some of the great sound files available to change the different sounds on the K's, like the whistle sounds, bell sounds, etc, and try out different combinations. But, I only have two, but I'm sure I'll eventually end up getting a programmer for them just for that reason. After all, two K's still exist, and one of them operates. It's just a shame it's not a lot easier - or cheaper - to change out sounds, etc. 

But, like you say, it is what it is! In the meantime, I'm going to take up EBT on his kind offer, and see if he'll do the firmware upgrade before doing the modifications, and save some money for a programmer. There's some spectacular steam sounds available for Microsoft Train Simulator that I believe could easily be converted to use with decoders. Same with diesel sounds. One member at Train-sim is a locomotive hostler for one of the Class I's and made some incredible recordings using high end equipment on an SD70Ace. Another member was given access to a GP-7 at a musuem just to record engine sounds. In the MR world, I think we're kind of lagging behind on sound quality. 

I would think that QSI, Phoenix, Soundtraxx or any other decoder capable of using custom sounds could benefit from some experimentation and different sound recordings. 

Thanks, Robert


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, buying a @$100 piece of gear to get the most out of a soundcard is very annoying. But as Greg says they all require it.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Robert, bring the loco. E-mail me kcstrong (at) comcast.net. 

Later, 

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Email sent, EBT! 

I would say before evaluating any sound system, watch some video of the prototype: 

In this video, the rod clanking is especially prevaliant in the earlier part of the video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Pt...re=related 

On this one, check out the sounds of the locomotive "idling." A lot of people think steam locomotives are "quiet" when they're not working. That couldn't be further from the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aiuz...re=related

This isn't a K-27, but listen to the engine sounds change when it crests the hill and the hogger lets off the steam and then again in the next shot when she drops down the hill, and then starts to climb. THAT's what you get with the QSI drifting and sound changing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KGb...re=related

I'll try to set up my track exactly like I had it last week when I calibrated the chuff on 453, and get some good sound recordings. I'm wondering if I should use a car behind the locomotive? I'd like to hang the camera off the side so you can see the drivers working as well, but I'm kind of concerned about sound transmission? I also want to try to get some stationary shots like that last YouTube video showing the changes in sound when cresting a hill, and climbing. Also, the locomotive sounds WAY different when running light as opposed to pulling a load.

Interestingly enough, the locomotives earned the nickname "Mudhens" while they were Vauclain Compounds, I don't think it really applies to them after they were modified into simple locomotives. And, of course, that nickname has differing stories, one that they "waddled" going down the track, the other because they spent a lot of time in the mud rather than on the rails. 

Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Robert, nothing in my in-box as yet. 

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I think I messed up the address, on the way! 

Thanks, Robert


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By rdamurphy on 23 Feb 2011 09:59 AM 
Email sent, EBT! 

I would say before evaluating any sound system, watch some video of the prototype: 

In this video, the rod clanking is especially prevaliant in the earlier part of the video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Pt...re=related 

On this one, check out the sounds of the locomotive "idling." A lot of people think steam locomotives are "quiet" when they're not working. That couldn't be further from the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aiuz...re=related

This isn't a K-27, but listen to the engine sounds change when it crests the hill and the hogger lets off the steam and then again in the next shot when she drops down the hill, and then starts to climb. THAT's what you get with the QSI drifting and sound changing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KGb...re=related

I'll try to set up my track exactly like I had it last week when I calibrated the chuff on 453, and get some good sound recordings. I'm wondering if I should use a car behind the locomotive? I'd like to hang the camera off the side so you can see the drivers working as well, but I'm kind of concerned about sound transmission? I also want to try to get some stationary shots like that last YouTube video showing the changes in sound when cresting a hill, and climbing. Also, the locomotive sounds WAY different when running light as opposed to pulling a load.

Interestingly enough, the locomotives earned the nickname "Mudhens" while they were Vauclain Compounds, I don't think it really applies to them after they were modified into simple locomotives. And, of course, that nickname has differing stories, one that they "waddled" going down the track, the other because they spent a lot of time in the mud rather than on the rails. 

Robert 

I agree that the QSI definitely has some nifty special effects its capable of, and one of the things I'm looking forward to about going DCC is having my locos sitting there still whinning, huffing, hissing, smoking, and doing all those things that make steam engines seem more like a living creature than a machine (I've been on the D&S a several times so have experienced in person what they can be like). You don't need to go too crazy with the video or its production. I'd rather a high quality audio than video. My concern with the QSI is more its actual sound quality. Was watching several videos and there seemed to be a lot of background noise or interference, and the sound and all the effects just sounded muddled, not very crisp at all.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

TJH, surprisingly enough, I'm on your side with this one. The videos I've seen kind of suck, as far as the ones I've seen on YouTube. I kinda took a shot, because I just loved the plug and play aspect (I cannot plug in a soldering iron without suffering 2nd degree burns), and when I fired them up, I was pleasantly surprised. Have you seen my post on the speakers I'm using though? 

Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

TJH, I set up one of my locos on the dining room table and did a quick 5 minute video. It takes you from being dead on the track through the startup, demos the bell and whistle sounds (note there is some distortion on the bell sounds, probably because the sound is turned up all the way and it overdrove the mic), then I moved it back and forth a couple of times. The loud sound after it stops is a boiler blow-down, that I put on "manual" control along with the grade crossing whistles. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhVs3usxeLI 

Thanks, Robert


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's important to note that any sound file posted to youtube has undergone significant degradation as it's "downsized," and you don't have any control over that process. I have all those QSI sounds, and even in that Youtube video they sound distorted playing through my tiny laptop speakers. 

You might indeed find that other decoders sound better. There are some things about phoenix that sound better to me. But it's not really possible to judge the sounds from a youtube clip over computer speakers


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Remember that on the QSI, you can individually set the volume of each individual sound, both as default (from reset) and after the firmware and sound file is loaded (by CV)... there's an incredible amount of customization possible, you might download the 260+ page manual and just look at the table of contents. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Also I posted about this before--some sound files have A LOT of processing on them. For example, a lot of Whistles have reverb added. I'm a semi-professional musician: I've done a lot of recording, and the processing on sound files is sometimes really heavy. 

Reverb often makes things sound prettier. If I play a guitar clip dry, and then play it again with reverb, you will probably like the reverb version better. But I found, with some sounds, that when I actually ran the thing outside, the reverb was really annoying. The whistle always sounded as if it was in a cave, when it was coming from a train out on the open. It sounded really artificial. So the fact that a given sound sample is prettier streamed over the web doesn't mean it will sound good in a loco running outside


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

That's true. I recorded the video in .mov format, or Apple Quicktime, which is what my camera uses. I converted it to Windows Media File, sounded horrible. Then I tried MP4, not impressive at all, but better video. I finally used DivX .avi format, and I got it pretty close to what I wanted. 

Of course, I'm using a SoundBlaster Audigy4 and 5.1 speakers, so your mileage may vary... 

The video I posted on Youtube sounds very close to the model on my computer. I also believe the model sounds better outside. Of course, it's too loud for inside!

Again, I would say compare. Find a video of a prototype, and then listen to the model. They should both sound alike, even if your speakers don't reproduce the entire range of sounds. 

And I'm not using cheap $8 4" speakers, I'm using $30 automotive quality speakers, with a much better range. It seems kind of silly to me that Model Railroaders spend $100's on sound cards and settle for $5 speakers that came out of transistor radios. 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Amen to that last sentence!

Stock speaker on left, good speaker on right. Clear enough? Sound quality difference amazing. 3" speaker from Aristo Mikado.











Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Before and After: 










Well, um, er, actually "After and Before!"

Thanks! Robert


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

hey rob thanks for the video. sounds better than what had been hearing but am still undecided. to avoid hijacking your thread further, I'm gonna run back to mine cause I had some other thoughts to share as well. Oh yeah, those speakers are quite impressive looking. Definitely something else to consider.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, it's Greg's thread, and I think maybe I hijacked it! 

Thanks! Robert


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

In my opinion and in my experience, it's a mistake to equate the size of the speaker with "sound quality," particularly the size of the magnet. Among bass players (like me) the biggest innovation of the last 5 years has been neodymium speakers. Neodymium has a very powerful magnetic field, and is very light. So if you compare a 50 watt alnico speaker (1950s) to a 50 watt ceramic magnet(70s) speaker to a neodymium speaker, the ceramic magnet is smaller than the alnico and the neo mag speaker is tiny, far smaller than both. The Alnico speaker will have a huge square magnet, and the Ceramic magnet will be about half the size, and the neo about half the size again. But it's just as powerful and sounds just as good. A speaker with a big magnet may not be any more powerful: it just has a bigger, cheaper magnet. 

There are lot of things to look for in a speaker: how much power can it handle? What's it's frequency range? The size of the magnet tells you nothing about that. The design of the cone can tell you some things, but even then, in my experience, you don't need a lot of power. A 1 watt guitar amp can be ear piercingly loud. I find that I rarely have the sound on any of the QSi cards turned up beyond about 25-30-% of full. I don't really need a lot of power. Of course, everyone's needs will differ. But the thing that will ALWAYS be lacking in G scale sound is bass frequencies. You just can't get a lot of bass out of a small speaker in a small enclosure. It's the laws of physics. The low E on a bass guitar is 41 hrz. You're not really going to get a lot of 41 hz in a 2 inch speaker in the shell of a RS-3. The rumble of a 1-1 RS-3 loco will have a lot of content at or below 41 hz. You can kind of fake the bass if you have a speaker with a lot of midrange emphasis, which is what those car speaker probably have. I don't doubt they sound good. I just don't think the size of the magnet is very relevant. 

What would be really good in a decoder would be an equalizer, so you could tune the sounds to fit the enclosure. If you could EQ each sound separately, you could produce a big improvement, I think.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I look at the actual frequency response of the speaker, and of course the larger the diameter of the driver the more potential it has for lower notes, but as lownote says, it's not a simple matter of magnet size. I buy a number of my speakers from Jonathan at Electric Steam Modelworks, his profession is audio, and he finds and sells speakers that are a good value and have very good sound. 

I've managed to squeeze up to a 4" diameter speaker in one tender, and usually 3.5" ones in most steamers. Diesels are a different story, although the oval speaker that Aristo uses is not half bad. 

Lownote, the problem with an equalizer, is you typically increase the harmonic distortion when trying to boost frequencies that are low, because the deficiency in the speaker is normally a mechanical issue, and forcing more out causes more distortion since it sort of wants not to do it in the first place. That's the hole in the "bose speaker" theory, by the way. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, the sound of the magnet is immaterial, as you point out. I think the point Greg and I were making, and I can't speak for Greg, is that the QUALITY counts. You can't take a transistor radio speaker that costs five bucks, slam it in the hole, and expect it to sound any better than a transistor radio. We both know a speaker can't play a square wave sound - but two speakers - or four speakers - can. In addition to a good equalizer, having stereo speakers can help immensely, you can send the steam chuffs and similar sounds to one channel, whistle, bell, and other short incidental sounds to the second channel. 

I think, and I'm agreeing with you here, nobody is really going to try to make outstanding 41 hz sound come from a 2 inch speaker simply because there's no application for it. I mean, besides 1/29th scale RS-3's and MP3 players. Automotive speakers come the closest, but serious musicians can set up speakers 20 feet tall. They don't need a 2 inch speaker. There are 4" woofers, however, so an option may be a good 3 speaker system with a crossover circuit to get the full range of sound. Clearly more research is needed to find the best combination to make our sound systems more "realistic." 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've been playing with the woofer in the tender, and a simple high pass crossover to a tweeter in the boiler to make the chuffs sound like they come from there. 

This started when I was running my mallet, and it was 20 feet away, and I could still hear the sound coming from the tender, not way up front from the smoke stack. 

Even from that distance it was unrealistic. putting a speaker up there made a lot of difference. 

Greg 

p.s. Robert you got it right... you can speak for me on that issue!


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I can see how that could be a problem on a mallet, being it's so long. On an MTH Triplex, it's obvious that the sound is coming from the tender, it's pretty blatant. I've spent a few hours with my K's, and I'm not getting that effect, partially because I keep the sound pretty high, but I'm interested in what you've done, there's plenty of room in the boiler of a K for a speaker, using the 4 ohm speaker, I THINK I could use a second 4 ohm speaker, a smaller one perhaps, to get more sound from the boiler area? Or maybe a woofer in the tender, and a midrange/tweeter combination in the boiler, with the crossover in the tnder with the woofer? 

It's not like there isn't plenty of room in there... 

One question, since the tenders on the K's don't have any holes on the top, only the holes in the bottom of the tender for the speakers, do they really need more of an enclosure than just the tender body themselves? They seem to move sound pretty well. 

I fully realize the speaker magnets don't need to be that large, but that's kind of what I had to work with, Radio Shack doesn't sell raw speakers any more, and I'm not sure of a good source for higher quality small speakers that would compare. Like lownote says, they don't have the bass of a woofer, but they do have enough midrange - and volume - to fake it. My primary worry about using bass speakers would be vibration... 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, you will find buzzing of parts just after speaker installation... just have to track down the loose stuff, it can make buzzing noises that spoil everything. 

But when you've finished, and get a deep throaty chuff, and a full bodied whistle, all the effort is worth it. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you have any wiring diagrams and parts suggestions? 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not me, mostly matching components, finding where I want the crossover, and calculate the values. I do each one differently, since every loco has a different amount of space. 

I do prefer a simple high pass crossover with a cap in line with the tweeter and to not put a crossover on the woofer, I prefer to use one that rolls off gracefully... 

The enclosure has a lot to do with the fine tuning. 

It's not something you can set a pat formula to. In terms of wiring, if my crossover freq is high enough I just parallel the woofer and tweeter and use 8 ohms... I stay away from 4 ohms, even if the amp is rated for it, I hear more distortion (which is typical... look at stereo amps and compare the harmonic distortion at 8 ohms and 4 ohms... people often want to "get more power" by using a lower impedance speaker, but the higher power is usually accompanied by higher harmonic distortion, which sounds worse, at least to me. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The K's tender shell makes for a very nice speaker cabinet. I've got a 3" el-cheapo speaker in mine (similar to the little one in Greg's photo) and with the shell on, it's got a very surprising amount of presence for what's often considered an inferior speaker. (I had also tried a higher-quality speaker in the same tender, and the results weren't really noticeably different with the shell on.) My biggest "gripe" with speakers--no matter what size or quality--is that many of the stock installations have them pointing down, so no matter the enclosure behind them, you've got 1/2", maybe 1" of air in front of them before the sound hits the ballast. That kills a good deal of the sound right there, until you go over a bridge, and all of a sudden your loco sounds completely different. The challenge--especially for steamers--is to build a coal load through which the sound can pass and still look realistic. 

Later, 

K


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The reason you'd want eq would not be to boost the bass frequencies--that wouldn't work and would just introduce distortion. What would be nice would be to tune the eq profile of each sound for the enclosure. Equalization lets you adjust the amount of energy directed at specific frequency ranges. 

It's an art really--people are paid big bucks for being good at equalization. With bass frequencies, in the typical G scale situation, I'd probably simply cut all frequencies below around 100hz, and let the low midrange frequencies, say, 100 to 500hz, carry the "bass." But what would work best would depend on the interaction of the speaker, the enclosure, and the specific sound. It'd be fun to play with, and it could all be done in software


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, then a simple high pass filter on the woofer to only pass over 100 hz for example would not be bad... 

I have picked woofers such that they roll off gracefully below about 150 to 100 hz, and have not really heard distortion because of this, but I could put in a filter and see what problems... 

We should verify the low end freq response of the decoder and the low end "allowed" in the sound files... (hmm... I did have an audio spectrum analyzer around here somewhere)... 

No reason to worry about this if the manufacturer is already filtering out the extreme low freqs already. Have you been able to validate there's significant energy below 100 hz or so? 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've never run a frequency analysis on any sound files. They may indeed have run a hi-pass filter and removed everything below 100 hz or so. It would be a smart thing to do. 

I think it would be fun and useful to be able to shape a sound to fit the enclosure by carefully shaping the EQ. From my experience, the manufacturers have mostly done a good job processing the sound files, with the exception of too much reverb sometimes. What they can't do is shape the file to fit the endlessly variable enclosures the files will play in. If we had some eq control, we could do that


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

In General, the comments made earlier by lownote on magnet size are accurate, for audio overall.There are indeed many factors in good speaker driver design. however, in large scale train sound, we cannot find a speaker with a diecast basket, a GRP, carbon fiber or aluminum cones, edge wound or dual wound voice coils and more. If we did , the driver would cost 50.00 or more, and no one would buy it. A speaker has a magnet in order to allow the voice coil to work against it in response to the signal. Linear response and maximum excursion of the voice coil in the gap of the magnet is what makes good , low distortion sound. So, if we lack the many factors that produce a fine design, then we fall back on magnet size/strength as a good way to produce a strong field so that the voice coil component has something to push against, and is low in cost. So, if you have a paper cone, foam or cloth cone surround, a non rigid stamped metal frame or basket, and a cheap low power low density voice coill, a large magnet will do a great deal to make things work better. So,a 2 inch, or 3 or even 4 inch speaker driver without expensive design features will perform well enough for use to use effectively. A good example is a 2 inch driver with a butyl rubber surround, and heavy magnet that out performs most 3 inch designs for sound in our trains. Or a European 4 inch with a rigid basket and heavy magnet that completely rocks when installed in a loco that can hold it( Accucraft k size basically) The standard stuff we see on locos works , and you are very safe to look at factors, magnet size being near the top, for judgment of quality. I will say , however, that some magnets are deceiving, as a shielded speaker looks to have a large magnet, and it is simply set up for use near CRT video with a standard magnet. 
And Greg, my profession WAS pro Audio/Video for over 20 years, but is no longer. Good times, but networking is now the deal. 
Jonathan -Electric/Steam modelworks


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Jonathan, I knew you are/were an expert.... networking now? Huh, we gotta chew the fat next time I see you.. fun stuff. 

Alll I know is all the speakers I buy from you are some of the best I have found in the size ranges I need. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I would think it would be possible to obtain a small equalizer, perhaps one for automotive use? 

Thanks! Robert


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It might be. But why use a hardware device when you could code it into the software? There are a ton of software equalizers out there now. I use Apple's Logic to record music and it's got lots of different equalizers modeled in software: graphic eq, parametric eq, classic tube driven eq models, etc etc. A software driven eq would take up no physical space and very little memory 

It'd be great to be able to run a parametric eq on each sound, and tune it. Fussy, yes, and most people probably would not want to bother, but as mentioned if you've spent a lot of money to add sound, why not make it the best sound possible?


I have seen it claimed that the new QSI decoder will have an equalizer in the software, but it's all still speculation at this point. I'm not sure if Zimo or ESU have an EQ feature: they might.

As a consumer, who has the luxury of just wanting stuff without having to actually make it happen, it sees to me that DCC has WAY more potential than is being realized. For example, I'd like the decoder to give me a simulated readout of water and coal consumption, and to simulate the operation of the valve gear so I could mess with running the engine more efficiently. The decoder could assess the state of the "fire," and you could be required to shovel in more coal, shake the grates, turn the blowers on etc. 


These things already exist in train sim software, and if you think about what a $100 cell phone can do, decoders seem really under-utilized.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I tend to agree. OK, I agree completely. For instance, I can't program the boiler blow-down sound to work while the locomotive is moving, although steam engineers often blow down the boiler when cresting a hill. I can't control the dampers, fans, shovelling, etc. You can set up a Trainsim steam locomotive for manual firing, why not simulate that in a model locomotive also? Don't pay attention, and you run out of steam - and you get less power, even to the point of stalling - and having to wait to build up steam. Why not be able to control air to the brakes? Personally, I think the momentum controls are way out of balance, they're not bad in acceleration, but you should be able to close the throttle going downhill and coast all the way to the bottom with the decoder handling the actual power needed to maintain - or increase - speed. Then you'd have to apply and release the brakes. 

Personally, I'd like to have some more challenging aspects to driving a locomotive, instead of fancy cruise control. It's all just a matter of programming, and considering the outstanding QSI drifiting and BEMF features, it's surely possible... 

Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lownote, the point I was trying to make, is that typically, when you are equalizing to try to overcome a "deficiency" in a speaker, like trying to get 60 Hz from a speaker that naturally rolls off below 200 Hz, you typically induce a large amount of harmonic distortion. 

On the other hand, overcoming levels set in recording, or unnatural roll offs, or smoothing down a "bright spot" in the output of a driver, it's great. 20 years ago I had a 9 band equalizer in my car. 

Robert, you CAN program the blow down to be controlled remotely, you just need to program the decoder. Actually you can control just about anything, just that most of these sounds were set to automatic from the factory. 

I like the idea of coasting you have, would be nice to be able to do that. I thought there was a way to do this, and then you could apply the brakes to stop. It might be one of the modes that was disabled from the threat of suit by MTH. Look at the modes available via CV29. 

Now, with momentum and coasting and having to use the brakes, that definitely would require driving the loco with some skill! 

My personal experience is that most people can barely handle momentum in deceleration. This is probably the feature you asked about is not really popular. I'll investigate though, I have an idea that might work. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, I have the blow-down set on F6, replacing the Dynamic Brake, but it only works in Neutral, it can't be used in FOR/REV. So I set the FOR/REV sound for F6 as the Grade Crossing sound, a great feature on the QSI Aristo that seems to be missed a lot. 

I would love to have momentum like that! And have to use the brakes to stop! I'll look at the CV29, and if you have an idea, I'm all ears. 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Robert, I'll try to look at that this weekend, from what I remember in the manual, it should be able to be set to work in either or both neutral and in fwd/rev. 

Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll save you some time: Page 105: 

"The third column shows the directional states (All, Forward/Reverse, Neutral) for which the feature may be 
assigned to an output. Some features, like Blower Hiss or Mute, apply to all states; some features, like Doppler 
and Squealing Brakes, only apply to a moving locomotive; some features, like Pop-off or Blow-Down, only apply 
to Neutral. The Quantum System allows you to assign, say, Squealing Brakes to Output 7 in Neutral but when the 
F5 Key is pressed to activate this feature in Neutral, it will produce no effect." 

Call me weird, but I downloaded the manual, printed it out, and read it...

LOL! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I see, that sucks, what I missed before was the title of the column: "allowed directional states)... so blow down, feature id 13, seems to only be allowed in NFF or NFR (basically neutral)... drat... 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, but while trying to workon the momentum thing given the information you provided, guess what I found: 

From the NCE PowerCab Manual: 

"Technical stuff - what happens when you set momentum 

The digit entered is multiplied by 8 (factory default) and sent to CV3. The value sent 
to CV4 is ½ half (factory default) the value sent to CV3. You can change these 
multipliers." 

Which explains why my Momentum setting for deceleration have been less than what I envisioned them to be. I've used the Momentum button on both of my K's, which means that CV4 has been set to 1/2 value of CV3 in both of them. I either need to figure out how to get the PowerCab to stop doing that, and set them the same or even set CV4 higher than CV3 to make the brakes more of a requirement. Does BEMF figure into the momentum at all? For instance, will I get more "coast" going downhill than uphill? Or do the simple laws of physics of a train weighing 30 or 40 pounds take care of that all on it's own? 

Thanks again! Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, a little more info: 

"Sound equipped locomotives that verbally speak the value of CVs must be turned off by 
setting CV 62 to a value of 0 for momentum to work properly. Setting CV 62 to a value 
of 1 turns the verbal response back on." 

I know that when I use the Momentum Button, my locos repeat back the new value of CV3. My guess is that CV4 isn't being changed at all. I like the convenience of the Momentum Button, so I can quickly change the momentum based on the length of the consist. I guess I'll need to adjust it to make the decel equal to the accel in the cab, and turn off the voice response in the decoders. 

Thanks! Robert


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

On the NCE controller, you can program the Momentum button to set CV4 at the same value of CV3 as opposed to half the value. It's "in the book" on the NCE controller how to do that. I tripped on it the other day and reset my controller to do that. 

Later, 

K


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Does it "remember" when you do that, or do you have to reset it every time you plug it in? 

Thanks! Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

the setting stays, like all other system settings in the NCE. the throttles have memory as well as the command station. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, Greg, just to follow up, I did disable the CV reports in one of my K's and got the momentum to work on deceleration. I didn't play with the NCE throttle, since my son and I were playing trains and I didn't want to interrupt the fun. Switching with momentem is quite a bit different, let's just say the Claims Department wouldn't have been very happy with me. Took me a while to learn the right distances to drop off the throttle, and hit the brakes, a few times I'd end up an inch short of the coupler, and a few times I slammed into the cars a bit faster than I wanted to. I also discovered, there's a huge difference in momentem depending on speed. At speed stop 30, she stops in about 8", and speed stop 40, about three times that distance. Higher than that, using the brakes is pretty much mandatory. Is the momentem linear or does it actually use some sort of physics algorythm? I've always thought running model trains without momentem was pretty lame... 

Thanks for all of the advice, I'm going to try to get the throttle to adjust to give me the same decel as accel. Not that I want more decel, but with decel at half, the accel is way too slow. I'd also like to do some experimentation to see if the momentem reacts to the load, i.e. number of cars, or if I'll have to adjust that when pulling short vs. long trains vs. switching. 

Thanks, Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just in case there is confusion: You can set CV's no problem with or without the voice confirmation. But, you must wait until it stops talking (CV three equals one zero), before you give ANOTHER command. 

In the case of the NCE throttle, pressing the momentum button sets CV3 and CV4 bang bang... the loco starts talking and the NCE sends the CV 4 command too soon. Turn off the talking and the button works fine. 

That's a good question on the momentum function, I wonder if the DCC spec states it, I'll have to look. 

It's quite a challenge to actually drive a loco that acts like the real thing! It's a great challenge for kids too! 

Each person has their own preferences on the accel and decel, and I typically set them individually. The momentum does not react to load normally, but again, I may have to check the QSI manual, because they do all kinds of cool things, the goal making it more like the prototype. 

Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I found the setting in the NCE throttle today, and adjusted it to match the accel and decel at the same level, and it was AWESOME! After some practice, I could do "kiss" coupling without moving the sitting car. The AMS cars and he K's operate very well through the AMS turnouts, very smooth, only one car (AMS Conoco tanker) makes any kind of a clunk at all on the frogs. I'm going to check the wheelsets on that one since it's the only one that does it, it must be the car. My son has those plastic Tomy trains, and my wife challenged me to put one on the flat car and see if I could keep it on. I actually did, even through uncoupling, moving, reversing, and coupling again. 

So, issues with QSI? Exactly zero. I have the "auto-chuff" down so close that you can't tell if it's off by eye, I get the full chuff effects, hard chuff if I go to 60 speedsteps, and softer if I only go to 20 or 30. Most momentem throttles I've used will accellerate more slowly or quickly depending on the initial throttle adjustment, and the QSI/NCE combination is no different. My son and I tried "kicking" cars, but it didn't work out very well, I suspect an automatic coupler on the locomotive would be required. I love the clanking rods effect when coasting, and with the decel/accel set to 6, it's just about perfect. I can accelerate to 30 (10 smph) and then kick the throttle off, coast in, and then go to 10 and make a nice soft couple. 

Like I said, it did take some practice... 

OK, things to fix: On the tender backup light it fades in and out nicely, whether changing directions or turning on the generator. The headlight pops on and off, I'm not sure why the front and rear lights act differently? 

Orange markers. I'm thinking of just wiring the fire lights to be permanently on, because I like them. The flash pattern could be improved, though, I might try looking for some 555 timer circuits, see what I can come up with, anybody got a fix for it? Then I'm thinking of wiring the markers seperately, using the DC/OFF/DCC switch, but changing it to Green/Off/White. I'm still seriously considering your suggestion for a FL decoder, though. Don't they have their own flicker circuit, and will it work with the two seperate LED's in the Bachmann? I'm thinking the cab light could be controlled, and the White and Green class lights have to be wired seperately, correct? Can they be set up so that they both can't be on at the same time? And the "ringing bell" animation idea is still in the back of my brain... 

Thanks, Robert


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