# Regner / water ??



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

A couple of years back there was a discussion here about this very topic. At the time I did not give it much thought. Now I have just come into possession of a Vicent, (Thank you Jason) my first Regner loco. 

Regner states: _"Use distilled water to which 3 to 5% of tap water has been added. This will remove the aggressiveness from the water, leaving a small residue in the boiler to prevent pitting". _During the earlier discussion all agreed that Regner says this because their boilers are made of brass and most came to the conclusion that since we did not know the make - up of the brass / solder material..........there was really no reason to add tap water. 

Regner also states on their boiler pressure certificate: "_Regner produces all it's boilers out of seamless, pulled brass pipes Cu Zn 37. The solders are made by using large, soft and low oxygen flames. Regner uses silver solder of the following qualities: -Ag-Zn-Cu 42 Working temperature aprox. 610-630 C. Tensile strength approx. 460-550 N/MM 2, Density approx. 9.2 kg/dm 3"._

Finally_, _they also say: _ "All boilers are made out of *pure brass* without using other materials or combinations of other materials to achieve an even expansion and to avoid cracks"._

Since Regner goes to all this trouble to give us all this info, would it not make sense to do as they say in their instructions and add the tap water ? Or............Am I way over thinking this?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

You could do as Regner says. If you run enough to develop deposits in the boiler you can just flush the boiler with vinegar as needed. 3 to 5 % is so little I would think it would take many many hours of running before you could even detect anything.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> You could do as Regner says. If you run enough to develop deposits in the boiler you can just flush the boiler with vinegar as needed. 3 to 5 % is so little I would think it would take many many hours of running before you could even detect anything.


 Hello Mr. Grunge

Actually, Regner says a little *GRUNGE* left in boiler is a good thing. I can't find where they mention vinegar anywhere.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

As I understand it, distilled water is fine. Most of the guys I run with use that in their boilers.

What you have to worry about is deionized water. This has the properties Regner is talking about. Not stable and the water will pull ions out of the metal weakening the boiler. Takes a while though.

Hope this helps.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

"Tap water" sounds vague, especially since Regner presumably means German tap water - who knows how that compares to yours?

Just moving from PA to NJ I can feel a difference in the water.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not been able to find ANY commercial distilled water in my area that does not include ionization. I'm probably old enough to not have to worry about any problems.


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## skypup (Apr 15, 2008)

Shay Gear Head said:


> I have not been able to find ANY commercial distilled water in my area that does not include ionization. I'm probably old enough to not have to worry about any problems.


My store sells ionized water and distilled water. The distilled says..can be used in small appliances "produced by steam distillation,carbon filtration,microfiltration and ozonation. Not sure if ozanation and ionization are the same but I think not.


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## skypup (Apr 15, 2008)

*ozonation*

From what I've learned this is ozonation:

WHAT IS OZONATION?
Ozonation is a process where ozone is produced by a corona discharge process (electrical discharge similar to lightning in a thunderstorm). This process converts natural atmospheric oxygen into ozone. It is the most technically advanced, effective, and environmentally sound, ozone-production method available and uses no chemicals. Ozonation is currently used to disinfect water, air, and food. It is the standard in Europe for disinfecting drinking water and is replacing chlorination methods. Now, NGG has employed this novel technology in opening the first and only California-approved Medical Waste Treatment Facility. 

WHAT IS OZONE? 
Ozone can be produced by UV radiation, electrical discharges (lightning or corona discharge), and by pollution. Ozone (O3) has three oxygen atoms as compared to its relative, oxygen (O2), which has two oxygen atoms. Ozone is created when oxygen molecules are split into two separate oxygen atoms. One of the solo freed-up atoms can then recombine with a two-molecule oxygen to create the 3-atom group representing ozone. 

Essentially, ozone is an activated form of oxygen. Often people associate ozone with smog pollution and the ozone layer, which protects us from the sun’s UV rays. Ozone is present in smog because the same processes that create pollution also produce ozone. Sunlight shining on industrial and automotive pollution splits oxygen atoms off from pollutant molecules, leaving behind noxious compounds such as nitrous oxide, nitric acid, sulfur dioxide, and carbon monoxide. Meanwhile, freed-up oxygen atoms then recombine with free oxygen to form ozone. Ironically, ozone can neutralize pollutants. Ozone is reactive and unstable, so it can quickly react with the neighboring noxious compounds and break them apart into their component compounds of water, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, sulfur, and oxygen. Because ozone is easier to measure, it is used as the indicator of levels of chemical pollutants in smog and the air pollution index. 

The toxic pollution associations with ozone should not be confused with the low levels of ozone generated for use in air, water, and waste purification. In these applications ozone can be safely used to provide many benefits. Ozone is a powerful natural sanitizer and deodorizer. Since ozone destroys odor-producing chemicals rather than merely masking them, its effect is permanent. This effect is obvious to someone who stands outside after a thunderstorm and smells the resulting fresh air. A useful property of ozone that makes it practical is its short life span. This life span is called a "half-life" and lasts less than 30 minutes. Half of any ozone created will naturally break down and recombine into oxygen 30 minutes later. This continues until all the ozone is depleted and converted to oxygen. The speed of this process depends upon a combination of local conditions such as temperature, and humidity as well as the amount of other molecules available for reaction with the ozone.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I think *I was way overthinking* all of this.


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

When I got my first live steam loco, I asked one of the chemistry teachers at the school I taught at where was a good place to get distilled water. She gave me a bottle of de-ionized distilled water from the chemistry department. The first time I went to a steamup, the guys said not to use that. So i dropped a new penny in the bottle to eliminate the problem. Let it chew on that.

The chemistry teacher said that the department had to have the water deionized on a regular basis as the state is not stable. She said it would ionize in a month or so, I think.

Since then I found it in all the grocery stores and Target etc. around here. At that time it was 85¢ a gallon. Now it is $1.10, unless on sale. SIGH


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

my local grocery store has distilled water int the "water" section but you have to look hard to find it. 

I get enough rain here that I can collect it off the roof during a heavy rainstorm. I let the dust settle then fill my half gallon jugs with it. works fine as far as i can tell. I only use rain collected from heavy storms after the roof has been washed a bit to get less dirt, pollin etc.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This thread has stimulated my interest in learning more than I already knew about the differences between distilled water and deionized water.

As we all likely know, distilled water results from the condensate of boiled water that has been allowed to cool after traveling a circuitous route to a collection vessel. In theory, dissolved particles and mineral substances are left behind and "pure" water is collected. 

With our steamers, we make distilled water as well, but we throw away the good stuff out the stack and we keep the bad stuff left over in our boilers. This is why we must start off with "good" water at the outset.

In practice, some droplets of the source water also make their way into the collection vessel so the water is pretty darn pure and pretty darn mineral free, but not perfect.

Distilled water (less mineral and metal content,) has a resistivity (measured resistance) of about 18 to 20 meg-Ohms per cubic centimeter - in theory.

I say "in theory," because, as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere it begins to degrade over time down to about 1 meg-Ohm/cm.

Still (pun intended,) distilled water is a better insulator than any other type of water.

See here:

http://www.aquaread.co.uk/water-resistivity-testing.php

Pure water 20 meg.
Distilled water around 1 meg
Deionized water about 50K
Tap water 1K to 5K

What about de-ionized water?

Unlike distilled water, DI water is produced by a chemical process and only specific ions are removed by passing the water through various columns of various resins. Biologic agents may be left behind (unless further filtering is done,) and there are more residual components than with distilled water. Most importantly, the water is left "ion starved."

Here is the main take-away . . .

Deionized water is unstable and because of this is corrosive - at least when compared with tap water or distilled water or any type of filtered water.

The removal of the ions causes the water to "want" to replace the missing ions and it does so by robbing ions from its container - if the container is metallic.

So this is why DI water is not to be used in metal vessels, especially brass vessels, but including copper vessels. From what I understand, brass becomes brittle and weakens over time.

This can turn out to be a "tempest in a teapot" argument, because the corrosion we are speaking about (I am speaking about) may take many years to do appreciable harm. So I wouldn't lose sleep over accidentally using de-ionized water now and then, but I would avoid making a habit out of it.

Cheers,

Joe


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## ScottB (Jan 8, 2010)

I use water from my dehumidifier in both my live steam boats and locomotives, So far no problems at all.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

For those using rain water, tap water, or water out of your dehumidifier, Try this little test.
Put a quart of water in a clean GLASS "cookware" pot and boil until there is just a few ounces left. Let it cool and take a magnifying glass and look at what is left. Is there any deposits, or is it cloudy? If not, you just sterilized it,, go ahead and DRINK it... because all that was left was pure water.... right?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> For those using rain water, tap water, or water out of your dehumidifier, Try this little test.
> Put a quart of water in a clean GLASS "cookware" pot and boil until there is just a few ounces left. Let it cool and take a magnifying glass and look at what is left. Is there any deposits, or is it cloudy? If not, you just sterilized it,, go ahead and DRINK it... because all that was left was pure water.... right?



yes, you sterilized it, but its not correct that "all that was left was pure water"..actually its the opposite..the water is much less pure after boiling.
you dont end up with pure water, you end up with water that is actually much"harder" (in terms of mineral concentration) and "dirtier" 
(in terms of the ratio of dirt to water volume) than it was before you started boiling..because you only boiled off pure water, in the form of steam,
but the minerals and dirt don't boil away, they remain behind..so you have lost a lot of pure water, but the minerals and particles didn't go away, 
so the water is actually "worse" after boiling it!  in terms of hardness and "dirtiness"..not better..

you would only get pure water from boiling if you capture the steam and re-condense it. then keep that water, and dump the leftover "boiled water" down the drain..

Scot


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Short answer - to be safe use distilled water. Most of the scale forming ions have been removed - normally tests at 5ppm total dissolved solids (TDS). It is the condensate from a boiler - just much bigger than ours. Tapwater can run from 50 - 500+ TDS with most of that calcium and magnesium salts which produce scale. Rainwater will be all over the map. Raindrops will not form without a solid nucleus so it is never pure water. What was that nucleus - bacteria, smog, etc. How far can you see on a clear day? 'Deionized' water is used for several different things. Most of what is seen outside the chem lab has probably gone through an ion exchange bed to remove the calcium / magnesium scale formers, but because pure water tastes strange, they then add a cheap soluble salt to improve the taste. May not form scale but it may well be corrosive to a boiler. Without a test meter (~$50) you don't know. Lab grade deionized water loses it's high purity over time primarily from exposure to air. Carbon dioxide and many other compounds start dissolving into the water immediately. It is not more corrosive, just difficult to keep pure without complex measures. But then you are trying to maintain a much higher purity than distilled water (X100 - 1000 or more). Final answer - stick with distilled.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

And the very final answer is: do not buy brass boilers;-) and use soft tap water (or if your water is very hard, dilute it with distilled or deionized water - do not believe these urban myths about deionized water). 
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS I can ship to you any volume 100% pure tap water for live steamers at low cost;-)!


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## mymodeltrain (May 14, 2013)

I think distilled water is good enough to run live steam. Deionized water is not cheap and not necessary. Usually, in a biochemical laboratory people make deionized water by letting distilled water run through a set of filters to removed other kind of heavy metal in the water that my interfere with their experiment. Particularly, if you do biological assays and if you have magnesium or iron they may skew your data since there are magnesium and iron in our biological assays as well. But I don't see any rationale why we need to use deionized water in live steam. Even you buy deionized water in the grocery or other places, they are not really deionized water. A system setup for deionizing water can cost from $20,000 to $40,000 and it requires a highly skillful technician do install the system.

For distilled water, it is nice to to use since distilled water remove all microorganism which overtime will make your water very dirty and they will absolutely make your tank dirty and requires frequent washing. However, I also think using tap water is fine as well since you boil the water during the run, all live microorganism will be killed anyway.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, That was exactly the point I was making... I use only steam distilled water, but some maintain it is ok to use other sources. So I posted a challenge to see if they still feel the same way after the test. 

Zubi is excluded, he lives in the only place on the planet where the tap water is "perfect" for live steam engines...hehe


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

mymodeltrain said:


> For distilled water, it is nice to to use since distilled water remove all microorganism which overtime will make your water very dirty and they will absolutely make your tank dirty and requires frequent washing. However, I also think using tap water is fine as well since you boil the water during the run, all live microorganism will be killed anyway.


MMT, you are confusing "microorganisms" with "mineral hardness"..they are not the same thing.
microorganisms are just bacteria, algae, and other small critters in the water.
They are not a concern with live steam locomotives..unless you use pond water!  which no one should be using..

Minerals in the water is the thing we are concerned about.."minerals", "hardness", "mineral hardness", "dissolved solids" are all terms that mean essentially the same thing, dissolved minerals in the water..that is the stuff that leaves mineral deposits behind when all the water boils away..its the "scale" that is left when water is boiled away..because the water boils away as steam, but the minerals dont..that is the stuff you dont want in your water for live steam locomotives..

It is NOT true that simply "boiling the water" makes it fine for live steam use..as I discussed above, boiling water actually makes the water *much worse* for live steam use!  killing microorganisms is not at all relevant to the live steam hobby..its only about the minerals..boiling water does not remove minerals, it actually makes the mineral concentration *worse*..not better.

Short answer repeated, yet again: *use only distilled water for live steam locomotives*.
distilled water has nearly all mineral hardness removed.



> However, I also think using tap water is fine as well since you boil the water during the run, all live microorganism will be killed anyway


no, that is completely wrong..killing microorganisms does nothing for your live steam locomotive..your locomotive is not a living animal, it has no immune system, it doesn't care if the microorganisms are alive or dead..distilled water wont contain any microorganisms anyway..its all about the minerals..and boiling water makes the mineral problem *worse*..not better.

Scot


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## mymodeltrain (May 14, 2013)

Scot, I use distilled water, sure for convenience. But what I meant was that distilling water does not completely remove minerals or hard metals. As I mentioned, in a lab, if I want to remove hard metals I would use distilled water and pass it through a completely sophisticated process to remove metals.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

mymodeltrain said:


> Scot, I use distilled water, sure for convenience. But what I meant was that distilling water does not completely remove minerals or hard metals. As I mentioned, in a lab, if I want to remove hard metals I would use distilled water and pass it through a completely sophisticated process to remove metals.


ok..but thats not at all what you said in your last post! 
and has nothing to do with what you said in your last post..
but ok..

For live steam locomotives, distilled water you buy in a store is perfectly fine..
it doesnt need to be any more pure than it is..

there are other types of "pure" water..deionized water,. reverse osmosis water, etc..
those are irrelevant to the live steam hobby..just use distilled.
a 99 cent gallon jug of distilled water from the grocery store lasts me a year..
there is no reason to consider anything else IMO..

Scot


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

A gallon last a year.. you don't run much.. I use 2 gallons in a afternoon of running. Went through about 5 galllons over the 3 day weekend. But it costs about 20 cents a gallon distilling my own water.


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## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

To mymodeltrain, distilled water is as close to being mineral free as can be purchased in any store open to the public. Put another way, there is nothing available to us generally that is as good as steam distilled water for our purposes.

So many hundreds and thousands of dollars are spent on the hobby, it just seems silly to me not to go out an buy distilled water unless . . . it is truly unavailable in your part of the world.

I tried to put as much info as is needed into post #12.

Cheers,

Joe


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies to my opening post. It looks like if you are using regular (not pharmaceutical grade) "Steam" distilled water there is still a little bit of minerals left in the water anyway. Probably even enough to save our brass boilers.........


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