# GP38-2 conversion to GP38 need info



## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm working on converting USAT's GP38-2 into early GP-38... I'm having trouble with the nose deck area, as I'm unable to find drawings and or pictures that clearly define the shape. 

From the pictures and such that I have I can easily distinguish a difference on the front of the engine. The early version GP38's did not have a step (folding or not) best I can tell, the deck is extended out forward of the pilot to the center of the coupler or so. For the most part I think I have defined the deck extension pretty well, yet there is a concern; It appears there is some taper or radius involved but I can't distinguish if that's what I'm seeing or not...

It would be easy to note if the deck extends out evenly from the pilot with a top view of the engine or if its tapered or has a radius verses being equally extended over the coupler. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Michael


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

That extension is an anti climber. I don't think the stock gp38's came with them????
http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=emd+gp38+anti+climber&v_t=wscreen-smallbusiness-w

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ATH-G40512-2.jpg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Features like that can be "railroad specific"..Different railroads could order the same model (such as the GP38) with different features. 
Some railroad's GP38's had anti-climbers, some didnt.

The frugal Penn Central had GP38's with very different front ends from the SP GP38's:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=54318&nseq=7

also, details like that can change by era..the "as built" configuration in 1972 can be very different from the same locomotive 30 years later..
best thing is to pick your prototype, and era, then just work from photos from that railroad's class of locomotives.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

1982:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sp/sp4823abp.jpg

Lights between the numberboards.
Mars light in place on the top of the nose.
Class lights in place on the side of the nose.
No ditch lights.
L shaped front cab window.

Same locomotive 18 years later in 2000:
http://forums.mylargescale.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9586&d=1409886800

No light between the numberboards.
No Mars light in place on the top of the nose.
No class lights in place on the side of the nose.
Ditch lights have been added..
L shaped front cab window is gone, replaced by "conventional" front windows.

Scot


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
4823 is interesting. In the second photo it looks like the MU connector is under the top step on the fireman side. I have never noticed that before on an S.P. loco. When I do a S.P. loco kitbash I usually look for one with a unique feature. This one would be it. I would guess you will do the early version?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul Burch said:


> Michael,
> 4823 is interesting. In the second photo it looks like the MU connector is under the top step on the fireman side. I have never noticed that before on an S.P. loco.


Paul, that's a light for the steps.

Scot


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks for the help gents...

Paul an anti-climber it is, now to fabricate my rendition of same. I already built one that projects evenly but realized it had some radius subsequently to critiquing my work in comparison to photos.

Yes, an early version of #4823 is one of three I'm converting to SP as built's. There are many changes to make it look right, and not just the obvious stuff like lights or lack thereof. To name a few; pilot outline, step surround, anti-climber, hand brake and more.

I think Scott is right it looks like a light to me, but not definitive.

Michael


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Sorry...this may not help....I only found one loco...of SP lineage...that was a straight GP38, non -2 loco...

How many GP 38 locos might SP ever had...
I did not find any roster listing for SP, which included a GP 38...

My take on the given anti-climber is that it would be a later addition...
It is typical of those I've seen on SD60's ....
It is also what I built on one of my own locos...
The corners do have a bit of radius...in addition to a radius at the nose...
But I'm not convinved this would be correct for a early non -2 version loco....
My quandary. ...

Dirk


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Scottychaos said:


> Paul, that's a light for the steps.
> 
> Scot





Michael Glavin said:


> I think Scott is right it looks like a light to me, but not definitive.
> 
> Michael


Actually it is definitive..I wasn't uncertain! 
It absolutely is a light for the steps..a common feature on many diesel locomotives:

http://tinyurl.com/kgs59bh

Scot


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## pinewoods (Jan 20, 2009)

I agree with Dirk. I am pretty sure that 4823 is a GP38-2, it has the smaller corrugated radiator screen, the snubbers on one axle of each truck and the ribs on the traction motor blower duct.

Dirk, where did you find the reference to the plain GP38, I could not find any.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Where is the MU connector? I don't see it unless it is in the shadows under the anti climber. Should be on the firemans side. That probably is a light on the steps.
4823 is a dash 2. http://espee.railfan.net/spgp38-2.html


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Tom, I use RRpicturearchive.net....sorry I cant link from phone...

I use it extensively for reference work..
But I also use constant searches online to temper and add more input...when I can find it...

I even did several SP roster searches. ..for this thread. ..

But only found one under SP ownership....

I'm as curious as dumbfounded there aren't more...

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The MU box is above deck level...on FM side...

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

My quick research revealed SP didn't buy any new. Wiki indicated that there wasn't much diff between it and a dash, minor cosmetics...
John


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep, all on-line SP rosters say SP only owned GP38-2's, no GP38's. 
Differences are minor, or moderately significant, depending on your point of view about such things, and how accurate you want to be.

But now that we know that SP had only Dash-2's, and the only choice in large scale also happens to be a GP38-2, the differences are basically moot!  Since presumably Michael will actually be modeling a SP GP38-2, and not a GP38.

Scot


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

For those that might want to model a GP38-2 that is an upgrade,in my opinion, from the USA model, I used a Aristo GP40 chassis with a kitbashed USA GP38-2 long hood. Perfect match to run with a GP40.
I chose 4846 because it was part of a group of GP38-2's in this number series that were purchased or leased,can't remember which, that didn't have the usual S.P. look like plows and a different nose light. Also standard EMD lights on the rear.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The one unit I did find is SP 4873....

D


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul that’s a nice looking engine… I need to pull a GP40 out of the box to ponder. The outline of the pilot looks right, can’t tell if the steps surround is right from your picture but it looks to be for the earlier SP GP-38-2’s as compared to USAT’s GP-38-2 which matches the later number series. #4846 as delivered is nicely matched with USAT’s SP GP-38-2 IMO less the pilot outline, lower pilot steps, pilot hose restrainer’s and lighting. I really like what you did to your model.

Scott, the picture is not definitive to me, I agree it looks like a step light but the picture leaves a lot to be desired thereof. Since this came up I reviewed more SP lineage pictures and can see steps lights were in fact in play of their GP-38’s, discovery of the step lights has become; additional items to model and allocate power resources for now. 

There are notable differences between early SP GP38-2’s and the units later leased from Helm 1993. The latter was a different build group originally and later were rebuilt by Helm too. 

45 units were purchased NEW mid 1980 from EMD. #4800-#4844

27 units were leased from Helm 1993; #4845-#4872

I’m modeling #4823, #4844 and #4853

And for Dirk all most all of the SP GP-38’s made it into UP’s numbering system.

I discovered a photo that clearly defines the anti-climber outline on SP #4843, page 124 of Brian Solomon’s ‘EMD Locomotives’. Didn’t think to look there previously, dug through all my SP books and online to little joy, geez had it all along… 

Michael


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok..so help me here..

I random picked a number of locos in the #4800 - #4844 group...

They "all" came up as a -2 series build...not dash free....

D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

UP must have run them thru a numbering re-assignment...

Those numbers today are on current SD70M locos...on the road...

D


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

More you dig the more you learn...

SP's leased Helm units were originally built as a group for the Louisville and Nashville Railroad #4070-4099 purchased new in 1972...

SP's newly purchased GP-38-2's were shipped in 1980 after delivery had been held back at EMD awaiting authorization and funding from SP to deliver due to business recession. After delivered SP sat on the units for some time before placing them in service. Haven't found out when they were actually built yet. Did note the -2's were built from 1972-1986.

So engines #4800-4844 are of later construction etiquette than the leased Helm units, #4845-4872 go figure!

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

SD90WLMT said:


> Ok..so help me here..
> 
> I random picked a number of locos in the #4800 - #4844 group...
> 
> ...


Dash free?

Yep all SP GP-38's were -2's ---------------

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Dirk,

SP #4800-4844 became UP #564-605 year 2000-20004

SP #4845-4872 became UP #1971-1998 year 1996-2001 

SP #4845-4872 became UP #471-497 year 2000-2003

Michael


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Scottychaos said:


> Actually it is definitive..I wasn't uncertain!
> It absolutely is a light for the steps..a common feature on many diesel locomotives:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/kgs59bh
> ...


The light under the steps is a step light (one under each set of steps). Most likely there is a truck light under the cab on the engineers side as well. 

I'm with Paul and others. Pick one number out of the series and try and research that particular model number. When I was researching GN GP30's for my GP30 project I started collecting photo's off all the loco's that were built during that series. Once I had more than a couple of pictures for each loco, I could pick through and see which model number had the most pictures, and closest to the date that I wanted to model. I was lucky enough to find pictures within two years of each other. That's still a long time in terms of changes on the prototype, but it's the closest I could get.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael,
I did do some bashing on the front pilot on mine to make it look more like 4846. Also added the newer style cut levers.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul,

The cut levers are another of many nuances required to get it right IMO. I'll fabricate an anti-climber and share some pictures soon. Have you noted differences in the step surround area, it sure looks like there is a distinct difference to me.

Michael


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm trying to confirm whether SP used anti-climbers on the rear of their GP-38's or not. Pictures and research are not divulging the existence thereof... 

Hopefully someone can offer specific knowledge on rear anti-climbers and if SP utilized them. 

Michael


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The most....and consistent .... I found where the same small triangle supported affair...as is modeled on our locos.

Sent some pix to ya!!!

Dirk


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*GP 38 vs GP 38-2 Radiator & Fan Spacing Differences*

Maybe I missed it being mentioned in a prior post, but one thing that I noticed about the USA Trains GP 38 (that is advertised as a -2 version GP38-2) concerns the size of the rear radiator grill and fan spacing.

From looking at SP and BNSF books*, it appears the GP38 (*non dash 2*) has a rear radiator grill with a distinct vertical divider at its mid point with top double fan spacing commensurately separated.
*This is like the USAT model*.

Whereas, the GP 38-2 (compared to the GP 38) has a shorter one piece radiator grill (no vertical divider) and noticeably closer spaced fans.

I suppose it's possible there was a transition period where the radiator / fan spacing GP 38 car body was used on early GP 38-2 units.

*Reference Books:

Southern Pacific Diesel Locomotive Compendium, Volume 2, by Joseph A. Strapac, Published by Shade Tree Books, ISBN 0-930742-32-X, pages 173 - 175 SP GP 38-2 Class EF420-3 and EF420L-1

BNSF Railway Company 2006 Locomotive Review and Locomotive Diagrams, By Robert C. Del Grosso, Published by Great Northern Publications, (no apparent ISBN) pages 37 - 44 and pages 139 - 140

-Ted


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The GP38-2 was built for 14 years, 1972 to 1986, and went through several phases.
The fan spacing, fan type, and radiator grill type varied between phases of the GP38-2.

http://trainiax.net/mephase-emdgp38-2.php

The USA Trains model probably represents a phase-1 GP38-2..and it is probably accurate.

Phase 1 GP38-2:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=424292&nseq=1

Scot


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,
That Trainiax website is great. I browsed through it and found lots of good info stored there.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*Example USAT GP 38-2 Radiator Intakes & Fans*

Thanks Scot,
Like Paul wrote, that's an excellent *Web site*.

Looking at the GP 38-2 description, it appears the USA Trains GP 38-2 fan Radiator Grill Intake and fan spacing is the very first Phase 1a version. 
(In hindsight, I always wonder why the Train Model companies choose the more obscure variants. Maybe the loco/s rolling stock just happens to be near their facilities.)










"Phase 1a
Radiator intakes: Square wire grid, 2 sections" 

"Phase 1b1
Radiator intakes: Square wire grid, 1 section, fans moved closer together" 

-Ted


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

This is most likely what happens.. The model train company finds a set of plans for a specific locomotive and builds to those plans, and simply paints what ever scheme they deem appropriate. Meanwhile if you ask EMD, or GE they will both deny that they have "phases" for each model. EMD sees all GP38-2s as GP38-2's, not Phase 1a, etc..
Craig


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

The Trainiax site is great! Thanks for sharing it Scot.

I'm going out on a limb and suggest SP GP38-2 #4800-4844 are phase 2d and SP #4845-4872 are phase 1b2. 

Michael


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