# Kadee Coupler and Metal Wheels Recommendations



## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

After putting my Large Scale trains away in storage back in 1998, I’ve decided to get back into the hobby a little bit. In the interest of upgrading my trains, I just did an inventory of what I have to determine how many of my engines/tenders, passenger, and freight cars have Kadee couplers installed. Back in the 90’s when I started collecting Large Scale, I installed Kadee #831 couplers (truck mounted) on 12 cars and 2 Moguls. The remaining 13 cars still have the factory stock couplers installed. The plan then was to put Kadee #831’s on _all_ of the cars and engines, which are manufactured by LGB and USA Trains. I didn’t even consider body mount couplers back then. Not sure why – maybe the reasoning at the time was that the 831’s were the most popular. Or the fact that my maximum curved radius was 8 ft. Maybe I didn’t want to modify the cars by cutting off the coupler tangs and drilling holes in case I wanted to maintain the value of the cars for possible resale at a later date. My track was laid down on a flat surface with no bumps or inclines, and the trains ran smoothly. My trains weren’t exceptionally long and the 831’s seemed to perform fine, even when backing up and running through switches. In retrospect, I probably thought it was just too much trouble to install the body-mount couplers.

Anyway, I would like the board member’s opinions on what you would do if you were in my position. I would like all of my cars to be consistent and have the same Kadee couplers on them. Yes, cost is a consideration if I am to replace my existing #831 couplers, but I want to do the “right thing”. Should I continue to buy #831 G-scale truck-mounted couplers (907/909 equivalent) for the balance of my cars or change them all to 1831 #1 scale truck-mounted couplers for my engines and rolling stock? Or should I go with the body-mount #830 G-scale couplers (or equivalent) or consider the smaller and more realistic #1 scale body-mounted realistic couplers?

I’m also interested in retrofitting metal wheels on all of my cars now. I’d like to get your recommendations please for LGB and USA Trains rolling stock wheels for size, performance, realism, and bang for the buck. 

Thank you very much!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB and Trainli metal wheels are rims and medium weight.
Many others are solid and much heavier like USA Trains.
I like rims indoors and heavy wheels outside as a small breeze will knock over a light car.
Short trains do not care much about truck mounted knuckles but long trains do need body mount as the torque will make truck mounted uncouple..


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Mikie first of if you are planning to use these cars and run I would not recommend going with the smaller Gauge 1 couplers and going with the 907/909 equivalent. Now as for body mounting and re-sale of the car unless you finding the rare collector who wants it factory pristine, adding metal wheels and a proper Kadee install I have found makes car more desirable. That is assuming the install is done well and as clean as possible.

As for metal wheels I cannot say there is one size fits all and comes down to the types of cars you are putting these on. Some wheels work great on some things yet wont fit in others. It all depends on who made the car and when.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Almost all of my cars have body mount height couplers. If there is a pad or an easy way to mount on the car, I will use #830. If the car requires surgery to mount the coupler on the car body, I'll use #831 trick mounts.

I use a lot of Bachmann metal wheels. These are inexpensive and work well for me. They have several sizes. Measure the diameter of your plastic shekels and order accordingly. Measure the diameter of the tread, not the flange.

Chuck


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Since you put the hobby aside, Kadee has come out with the 900/1900 series couplers. They are much more realistic in appearance, and are fully compatible with the older ones.
All of my equipment (1:20.3 scale ) have body-mounted couplers. While I operate on large-radius live steam tracks, all equipment will negotiate a section of LGB R3 8ft diameter track that I use as a gauge.
Check out the Kadee site for reference.

Larry


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I agree, 900 series, body mount will make the best job.

ww.reindeerpass.com/Kadee-Centerset-Couplers-831-Gear-Box.aspxw


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I too had lots of Kadee 831 on my rolling stock and locos. 

However this summer I finally finished a huge change over to the newer Kadee 906 body mount couplers.

Not only do the Kadee 906's look better then my old 831's, they operate better.

I have not noticed any difficulties with using 906 couplers and my curve sections. My tightest curve on the layout is slightly over an LGB R2...what ever that is. 

One thing to consider though it that LGB and USA cars are not the easiest to change over to body mounted couplers. At least for the cars I had; mostly the narrow gauge style cars.

In fact a lot of work was required to get the 906 couplers to work and get them at the proper height. For most I used styrene "blocks" to make coupler pads glued to the car bodies. Most of the time I had to cut/shorten/modify the original underframe to do fit the "blocks". Then I drilled and tapped in the "blocks" for 4-40 screws. These screws hold the Kadee coupler box firmly to the car, yet can be unscrewed if I ever need to service the coupler.

*Wheels*
Currently I try to use LGB metal wheels. Mainly because they are very smooth running and rarely out of gauge. I also like the shiny treads which look realistic if you paint the rest of the wheel. 

I used to use Bachmann metal wheels and they likely should work fine for you. They definitely are less expensive then LGB wheels which is a plus. And you get 4 Bachmann wheels per set vs only 2 LGB wheels per set. I just got fed up with the occasional oblong shaped Bachmann wheel that would make a car wobble or jump at switches.

As for LGB and USA car wheel size, get the Bachmann 92421 wheels. Or if you want LGB, the 67419 are the standard size.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the USAT 1:29 rolling stock have pads at exactly the right place for the Kadee's, almost all of their products.

Here's a picture of one of their boxcars, even the holes are there in the right spots:










It's one of the reasons I have very little Aristo rolling stock, the pain to add Kadees. The USAT stuff is a snap, in fact they supply you with a coupler lift bar that has extra clearance for the Kadee draft gear.


The NG stuff from USAT? Which stuff is that Matt? The American series is a different scale, but not NG... maybe I'm having a brain f**t... 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg
I have some of the early USAt "American" series. They are box cars and reefers lettered for the Rio Grande and Uintah narrow gauge. They are identical to the LGB narrow gauge cars. These all scale out to 1:24 for a 30' NG car. They are similar in length to the Delton NG cars. Delton was the only manufacturer in the 1980s to put a scale (1:24) in their ads and on their boxes.

I too preferred the 1:29 USAT freight cars, because of the coupler pads. All of my Aristo freight cars have truck mounted Kadee 831s.

USAT's streamliners do not have this pad. Which causes me some problems as most of my engines are set for body mount height and the streamliners even though they have body mounted couplers are set for the universal truck mounted height, as are their engines. I have set up a USAT RPO as an idler car to go between the engines and the other cars in the train.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Chuck (as always ), I was not aware they were NG proper, as opposed to just a 1:24 SG.

I did the same thing as you did, the first car in my streamliner consist is a Kadee to match the locos.

The coupler on the USAT streamliners is quite robust, my early ones are metal, and the draft gear movement is excellent, so I saw no reason to change them out.

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg

I agree with you on the streamliner couplers. It is a great pocket and coupler. I wish there was an easy way to mount them at the higher height.

Chuck


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> ...The NG stuff from USAT? Which stuff is that Matt? The American series is a different scale, but not NG... maybe I'm having a brain f**t...
> 
> Regards, Greg


Yeah sorry about that Greg. I wasn't super clear there.

I meant the American series...or I think sometimes referred to as Woodside Series. Basically the very early Charles Ro D&RGW offerings. Which I think may have been called Narrow Gauge back in some catalogs (Late 80s to early 90s).

Unfortunately none of these older cars have coupler pads. And it's likely they were all designed before Kadee even had body mounted "G scale" couplers.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey Greg, do you have photos or something to help figure out which KayDee s to order for which jobs and what they look like? I have to had much luck on line. Sometimes I need something odd!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Eric

There are a lot of kadee's out there, we have among us used most of them. What do you want? We may not remember the number, but we might know if it exists. What are you interested in?

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Eric, my website has 650 pages, look up the rolling stock or locomotive you want and there is probably something on Kadees. Also visit the part that says "Ted Doskaris' Vignettes" he's found many ways to put Kadees on rolling stock and locos.

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*USA Trains & LGB Kadee Body Mounts*

With respect to USA Trains & LGB body mounting Kadee couplers (all but SD 70 are centerset types), the following hyperlinked "Vignettes" (aka articles) are hosted for me by Greg E. on his Web site:
(For cars described with Kadee 830s, the newer Kadee 906s can be substituted)


*USA Trains Streamliner Passenger Cars*:

*USA Trains Streamliner & Kadee 906 Centerset Couplers*


*USA Trains Freight Cars*:

*USA Trains Golden West Service 4 Bay Hopper Car & Kadee 830s*

*USAT's SP Hydra-Cushion Boxcar & Kadee 830s Vignette* (50 foot car)

*USA Trains Intermodal Container Car - Lowered & Fitted with Kadee 907 Centerset Couplers*

USA Trains 60 foot box Car Fitted with Kadee 906 Centerset Couplers
Article not yet written

USA Trains Modern Tank Car Fitted with Kadee 906 Centerset Couplers
Article not yet written


*USA Trains Caboose*:

*Body Mounting Kadee 907s to USA Trains Bay Window & Extended Vision Caboose*


*USA Trains Locomotives*:

*USA Trains GP 38 - Kadee Centerset Coupler Install, Abandoning Traction Tires & Various Mod's*

*USAT SD70MAC experiences*

USA Trains SD 40 - Kadee Centerset Coupler Install, Abandoning Traction Tires & Various Mod's
Article not yet written


*LGB*:

*LGB Modern Tank Car - Lowered, Body Mount Kadee 907 Centersets & Added Weight*



-Ted


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

*USA Trains & LGB Kadee Body Mounts*

Removed redundant post


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## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

Thank you very much to all of you for your input. I was really considering body mount retrofits for all of my cars until I read Matt's post and how difficult it is.  Going forward, it almost seems like it isn't worth the expense and time to change over all my cars from the 831's to the 906 (Kadee recommends 909's Matt &Ted?), although I'd really like to. I'd also like to have not only consistency but more realism with size and car-to-car closeness, especially with my LGB passenger cars. I've heard pro and con concerning maintaining the value verses modifying the cars. I have a few USA Trains collectibles that maybe should just remain on the shelf instead of being 'runners'. I still have to weigh this but I really appreciate your input! 

Here's my very humble collection of G-scale trains. A nice start in the early 90's before I had to abort the mission after the ex threatened to sell them if I didn't stop: 

*USA Trains*

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale reefer TS16000 (U10)
Mendocino Brewery Red Tail Ale reefer TS16008 (U9)
BAGRS #001 convention car 
Bear Whiz reefer FRC-906 (X6) (KD 831)
Bear Whiz reefer FRC-907 (X7)
Sam N’ Ella reefer (KD 831)	

*LGB*

Starter set 20401	
Locomotive 2019S C&S (KD 831)
Locomotive 2028D D&SP&PRR (KD 831)
Passenger coach 3080 E 01 C&S (KD 831) (Lighted - GR Wheels)
Passenger coach 3080 E 02 C&S (KD 831) (Lighted - GR Wheels)
Passenger coach 3080 E 01 C&S (KD 831) (Lighted - GR Wheels)
Passenger/Combine 3081 E 02 C&S (KD 831) (Lighted - GR Wheels)
Passenger coach 34800 C&S (KD 831)
Passenger coach 14th National Convention 30808
Jack Daniels box car 4067 HD
Harley Davidson box car 4067 HD (KD 831)
Budweiser reefer 4070
BAGRS caboose 4071 GR Steel 
Caboose 4065
Miller High Life reefer 4072
Harley Davidson tank car 4080 HD (Qty. 2 - one w/ KD 831)
Coca Cola box car 4291
Cattle car w/sound 42682 (Qty. 2)
Coors reefer 43720

As far as metal wheels, I really like the Kadee and USA Trains (blackened). The LGB's are very nice but also expensive. I put Gary Raymond's on my LGB passenger cars back in the 90's and they look OK. Do you guys have experience with San Val Roll-EZ wheels? Seems like they're reasonably priced. And after what I've read about the quality of Bachmann metal wheels, I'm not real hot for them, although I REALLY like the price!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I have Bachmann wheels on probably half of my cars that came with plastic wheels. The flanges were thicker and deeper than on some other axles, but I haven't had any problems with them.

If you are running on smaller than code 250 rails, there might be a problem.

As I said earlier, if it doesn't require any surgery, I'll body mount with 830s. If I have to cut, I'll use 831s. I believe all of your cars would require surgery. If they were mine, I'd stick with the 831s.

Chuck


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

If you want the more realistic looking Kadee "Type E" coupler, the #909 is a direct replacement to the truck mounted #831.

I'd post some pics of what it takes to convert these older cars to body mount however my G scale trains are at our place in Colorado, while I'm currently in California for work. And unfortunately won't be out to Colorado again until late May. But I think over the summer I'll take some pics for a "how to" body mount couplers to cars without any coupler pads.

I do have some pics of my LGB coaches with Kadee 906 couplers installed. Although I don't have any specifically showing the coupler pad I had to build. 

Here are two modified LGB 3080's with body mounted Kadee 906 couplers and protohands brake lines. These couplers have been painted:









Link to large image









Link to large image


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I like the old "SanVal" (roll-ez) wheels. (Not the ball bearing though..., too expensive.) They roll nicely, the wheels and flanges are a bit smaller than most, they fit most anything, and they clear the "wide/deep" coupler mounts on some makes that many other wheels don't because their axles are too fat.

http://www.roll-ez.com/


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Mikie said:


> Bear Whiz reefer FRC-906 (X6) (KD 831)
> Bear Whiz reefer FRC-907 (X7)



Looks like you have a lot of thirsty bears on staff.

I also run Bear Whiz product (we have a Bear Whiz Brewery) as does someone else in our club.

If you are interested, his son may do up a caboose and engine for you in bear whiz color (yellow of course, but could be white) with the Bear Whiz logo cas he did for their railroad.

BTW, history lesson. Bear Whiz Beer goes back to The Firesign Theater comedy group.


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## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

Hi Toddalin! Sorry, I just saw your posts. I remember picking up the first two Bear Whiz cars back in ‘94/’95 and they’ve been in storage ever since. I kinda kick myself now for not getting the whole set of six at the time - I see a pair of them are going for 700 hunderd bucks on Ebay now. Anyway, I might be interested in a custom Bear Whiz caboose (in white). I see the graphics on it are not quite as detailed in color as on the original reefers, but it’s still a nice car. Wonder why the numbering gap between the last reefer made (910) and the Bear Whiz caboose (914)? I first became aware of the Bear Whiz caboose (only 2 or 3 in existence) after seeing one on this blog just a few weeks ago:

http://grandpalandrr.blogspot.com/2015/11/steam-locomotives-and-beer-train.html

And here:

http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=3005&sessionid=e9dc03644e154f7dbb42075de34c9d9d&l=english

It looks like this collector went with Kadee truck mount couplers over the body mount couplers on his Bear Whiz car. This is the reason I’m resisting body mounts and considering sticking with the 831/906 truck mounts (or 909/1831) as I don’t want to chop up the plastic on the ends of the cars:

http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2964&sessionid=25694f02d29f2de6a073db59ff44f242&l=english

And you guys even have a Bear Whiz Brewery down there in Yell………uh, Orange County? Neato!

Toddalin, I wonder if Gary’s son would be interested in customizing the same USA Trains woodsided caboose to match my LGB Harley Davidson box and tank cars. Now THAT would be very cool!


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## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

Matt and Chuck, thanks for the replies. Still deciding on what do about my couplers and wheels. Matt, I see you've painted your LGB coaches a little different color green and they DO look more realistic with that and your 906 couplers. Are you going to stay with those couplers and Bachmann metal wheels? You did the same thing I did by modifying the last coach with marker lights and rear lighted emblem. Sure beats a Drovers caboose! Matt, I definitely would be interested in pictures of how you mounted your Kadee #906's. The 831 coupler mounts I have on my LGB passenger cars keep them apart an unrealistic distance. I currently have 8 ft. curves and 3 ft. straights on Code 250 nickel silver rail and plastic ties that I bought from Micro Engineering back in the 90's.

Good notes I've taken from you guys concerning metal wheels:

1. Chuck n - I use Bachmann on many of my cars. The flanges are thicker on the Bachmann wheels. If you are going for a more scale look you will like the machined wheels. Bachmann is fine if you just want something to roll under the cars.

2. Armorsmith - The Bachmann wheels are a direct fit replacement for LGB wheels, I have a dozen or more cars that are LGB with Bachmann steel wheels. Occasionally you will need to install shims to center the axles in the side frames due to excessive side play. Purchase a quantity of 3mm nylon flat washers, they work well for this. Additionally find some plastic safe grease (I use white lithium from the auto parts store) and lubricate the axle ends when you re-assemble the trucks. 

3. Bachmann are still the cheapest, I believe. They also have the advantage--which could also be a disadvantage--of being lighter. As I see it, in general heavier wheels,

4. Charles Ro sells the USA wheel sets in lots of 10 pairs for $90. The part numbers are R2090 shiny, R2093 for black. These are solid metal and very heavy, great outdoors in the wind!!!

5. As for wheel choice, it is pretty obvious what I use on EVERYTHING that does not come with metal wheels. They are relatively inexpensive yet provide a nice lowered center of balance due to their reasonable weight and do allow a piece of rolling stock to roll with reasonable ease. I have pulled consists of as many as 86 cars--all Bachmann wheels--with a USAT Big Boy so the lack of bearinged axles may be a moot point. Sure, you can break the bank and go to something believed to be top notch (and perhaps it is) like Gary Raymond but it really isn't necessary. Besides, I have fellow club members who have trouble keeping their rolling stock on the tracks at certain outside train shows with their Gary Raymonds while I continue to operate. Certainly the flanges are not prototype but what really is in G-scale anyway?

6. I've been using Bachmann metal wheels for 8 years with very, very few that went bad. I have over 70 4 axle cars running with them. I've used others but have found the Bachmann wheels are the best for the money in the long run. Most of my trains run all day 4-6 days a week, 8-12 hours a day.

7. For the price San Val’s are fine. San Val wheels are slightly smaller in diameter than the stock Aristo or USA wheels,soÂ* do affect coupler height a little. If using a body mount coupler ,change the wheels first then do the couplers. 

Re Kadee couplers: 

1. While installing the 906's is easier I don't like the way the coupler arm slides in and out, and the size of the box restricts the truck movement a lot more than the 907's( the shims are the same size as the 906 coupler box, so you can see the size difference.


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## TAAudi (Dec 6, 2012)

hello from Germany,

from the beginning I´m using the Kadee 1907 and metall-wheels.
I´m running trains with more than 25 cars and had no problems yet ...... and it looks more prototypical.

I fyou like have a look ......

http://forums.mylargescale.com/15-model-making/25581-modifying-my-usat-gp38.html





 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


Thomas


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With respect to the Kadee coupler concerns, the coupler sliding out is actually prototypical. I either double-up or stretch the springs so they're a bit stiffer and don't pull out quite so easily, but if you are to watch prototype couplers, they'll slide in and out like that as the load on the coupler changes. (There are slight differences, but the net effect is largely the same.) 

The large "G scale" coupler box does limit the amount of swivel the trucks can turn, but you can cut away part of the box to clear the wheels in most cases. You can go with the shorter draft gear, but the trade-off is that your side-to-side play is compromised. This will be a factor going into and out of curves, or pulling/pushing in and out of sidings. 

You can go with the smaller "#1 scale" coupler, as seen in Thomas' video above. I've been using them for 30 years on my trains. They're a much more "scale" appearance for 1:32 and 1:29 trains, and work out well for a "3/4-sized" coupler used on certain narrow gauge railroads if you're modeling 1:24 to 1:20.3. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm amazed at the number of people who do not like the prototypical coupler slack, but it parallels people who do not want ANY momentum in their train control.

It's easier to run, but personally I like the challenge of operating the trains with a bit more skill required, besides being more like the real thing.

Greg


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## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

East Broad Top said:


> With respect to the Kadee coupler concerns, the coupler sliding out is actually prototypical. I either double-up or stretch the springs so they're a bit stiffer and don't pull out quite so easily, but if you are to watch prototype couplers, they'll slide in and out like that as the load on the coupler changes. (There are slight differences, but the net effect is largely the same.)
> 
> The large "G scale" coupler box does limit the amount of swivel the trucks can turn, but you can cut away part of the box to clear the wheels in most cases. You can go with the shorter draft gear, but the trade-off is that your side-to-side play is compromised. This will be a factor going into and out of curves, or pulling/pushing in and out of sidings.
> 
> ...


East Broad Top, for my LGB (1:22.5) and USA Trains (1:29) reefers, you would go with something like a Kadee #830 (now #906) coupler? I see these couplers have the push-pull capabilities that you're referring to. Or would a #820 be the better choice for my LGB/USAT rolling stock?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

My modeling is driven largely by aesthetics, so I'd opt for the more scale appearance of the #1 scale couplers (#820 / 1906). They'll be scale for your 1:29 USA Trains stuff, and also be scale for your 1:22 LGB equipment for a narrow gauge line which used 3/4-size couplers. The smaller draft gear box means it will be easier to install them without worry of interfering with the trucks, so that's an added bonus.

Let me ask you this... are you thinking you're going to be mixing your 1:22 and 1:29 stuff, or are you going to be running them separately? From a practical standpoint, the #1 scale and G scale couplers will connect with each other, so there's really no reason you couldn't use the smaller couplers on the 1:29 stuff and the larger couplers on the 1:22 stuff. If you're not planning on mixing the two, the size difference won't come into play since they'll be kept separate. However, if you were to want to mix them, since they do couple to one another, they would work just fine. The G scale couplers are "scale" for the 1:22 stuff using a full-sized coupler; it's just that I'm so used to looking at the smaller 3/4-sized couplers that anything larger looks a bit off.

Later,

K


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## Mikie (Nov 7, 2013)

Yes, I'm going to run all of the LGB & USAT cars together behind my LGB 2019S and 2028D moguls. I do want the cars to look "prototypical" ; that's why I'm spending so much time figuring out which couplers I'm going to use. Like I said, I have Kadee #831 G-scale truck-mounted couplers on some of the cars now (installed back in the 90's) but going forward I want to be consistent and use the same couplers for all of them even if it means retrofitting. 

Thanks for the input, EBT! Sounds like the #820/ #1906 body-mounts are the way to go. Then I'll finalize what kind of metal wheels to put on 'em......


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