# USA Trains Switch R81615



## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

USA Trains #6 Remote Switch with illuminated Lantern and Switch controller.
Does anybody have experience with this switch? Is it good quality? What is its radius? I could not find the radius on the USA Trains page . I did not find the switch listed in AnyRail under USA track. When looking at the photos I would say the radius looks like 5 to 7 ft. It appears to be motorized.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, you need to understand the difference between set track switches and real switches. Set track switches have a curved diverging track so they fit in with curved set track sections but a real switch has a straight diverging track so has no actual radius except for the section between the points and frog tip. A 5ft radius set track switch is about a #4 frog, perhaps a little more. A #6 switch has a more acute frog and only the section between the points and frog tip has a radius, the rest being straight. Therefore a #6 switch would need plenty of space if put in a curve. 

The switch number is the ratio of the frog. Length from the tip through the center line compared to how much the frog spreads between the two rails.

Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't like the USAT #6, the electrics that supply power to the points and frog are not good. If you run battery power it won't matter.

Not only does he #6 switch go "straight" past the frog, all prototype style switches are made this way. Only the "smaller" switches are made to fit curves. This is from LGB's lead of tight curves, so the switches that have a curve after the frog make it easier to layout track with curves right after the switch.

You get more compact track, but you wind up with non-prototypical switches and normally trackwork with more extreme curves, which can limit the types of locomotives.

Only LGB engineered all their locos to work on 4 foot diameter curves, no one else had the "toy train" mandate.

Looks pretty stupid:









You make gross accommodations in locos to allow this.




Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

AG, let me put it in my own words to see how much I have understood. In a real switch the outer track path is a straight section of straight track , while the inner path is straight on one side of the frog and curved on the other side of the frog. In a set switch the inner path is a perfect curved section of a perfect circle, curved equally before and after the frog, while the outer path is? also curved on both sides but unevenly ? Or curved on one side of the frog and straight on the other?
Looking at the USA Train switch I see the outer path is definitely straight, is it then not a real switch?
I remember someone writing in one of this threads about track (words to the effect) that the numbers given to switches by different manufacturers do not correspond and therefore can not actually be said to accurately relate to curvature.
Greg, can the electrical problem with the USA switch not be easily solved?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> AG, let me put it in my own words to see how much I have understood. In a real switch the outer track path is a straight section of straight track , while the inner path is straight on one side of the frog and curved on the other side of the frog.


The track *through the frog* on a real (full size) switch is straight for a few feet on both tracks. Before and after the frog may be curved or straight - on a Y switch, both are curved. 



> Looking at the USA Train switch I see the outer path is definitely straight, is it then not a real switch?


Don't understand what 'real' means in this context. The USA #6 is a decent model of a prototype #6 switch. 
It has a lot of straight track after the frog on the curved track direction - as your photo shows. I often curve that track about 1" after the frog to match where the diverging track is heading. Or you can cut it shorter - you only need the straight portion to be a couple of inches long.



> I remember someone writing in one of this threads about track (words to the effect) that the numbers given to switches by different manufacturers do not correspond and therefore can not actually be said to accurately relate to curvature.


I think they were referring to radius numbers. LGB started the R1 nonsense that Greg admirably illustrated (good photo Greg!)
Switch numbers are the angle of the frog as a ratio to 1: a #6 is a 1:6 gradient or angle, where for every 6 units of distance it diverges 1 unit. They are not related to curvature unless the manufacturer hasn't made a scale model.
I've recently worked on both an Aristo #6 and a USA #6 and both seemed like reasonable models.

The effective radius of the curved portion of the switch is 7.5' (15' diameter.)



> Greg, can the electrical problem with the USA switch not be easily solved?


I don't know about 'easily' but it can be solved. We added an LGB switch box with two electrical switches (don't know the part number - maybe Jerry will jump in.) The switches are wired to the frog to replace the reed switch under the USA ties.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

All your explanations have been very clear and helpful. you have cleared up all of this for me . Thank you very much Pete.

I find the following also a bit confusing and would like to understand it in more depth.
AMS AM49-101 FLEX TRACK CODE 250 BRASS Standard Gauge Style made by Accucraft

Before asking Q about this to the seller I looked up standard Gauge for model trains, I found out it is a gauge introduced by Lionel long ago and not in use any longer. But Accucratf refers to it in their 2015 product lists.
So I ask the seller.
Is this for G scale trains like LGB, Aristo-Craft 2 8 8 2 mallet , Bachmann Big Hauler?
The seller responds. No.
I ask again. So what is the distance between rails ?
The seller responds. It's the same as lgb. But the rail height is 1/4 inch and lgb is 3/32


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks Pete, there is a bit to explain there with 'depends on what'. 
TTT, go read Greg's page on switches on his website.
http://www.elmassian.com/trains/track-aamp-switches
When I used the term 'real' I mean prototype or modeled like a prototype switch as opposed to a set-track switch.

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, The rail code is the height of the track in thousandths of an inch. LGB is code 332. Some track makers use code 250 which is not as high but more to scale. Peco make 45mm gauge track that is code 200.
Track makers usually make standard gauge style or narrow gauge style which refers to the tie spacing. Closer together on standard gauge because it should be scale 1:32 or 1:29. Narrow gauge ties a spaced more because it is 1:20.3, 1:22.5 etc. 
The ties on AMS track are much longer than LGB ones because it is for 1:20.3. LGB is 1:22.5. (some Aristo etc. same to be compatible).
Don't worry about Lionel standard gauge track. It refers to an obsolete toy train track they called 'standard'. 
It is a different thing altogether to prototype standard and narrow gauges and the scale tie spacing on 45mm gauge track.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

AG You write so technically and with so much more knowledge of Scale trains then I will ever have that I sometimes get a bit lost or confused, my only chance is to try to simplify.

So; considering only the 3 specific switches in question which will all be suitable to my planned track.
Going exclusively by the opinions expressed in the threads, my rating would be: 
USA-TRAINS Good
Aristo-Craft Better
Piko Best.
What would your rating be? 

In reference to the Accucraft track in question. Can I connect it to and use it with my LGB, Aristo-Craft and Piko track to run my Mallet, LGB and Bachmann trains or not?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There are special rail clamps made that will connect code 250 with code 332 rail. They are different sizes. Code 332 is taller and the foot is wider. Therefore the usual connectors, joiners and clamps will not work.

I think that Accucraft does make 332 rail, that should work easily, just not 250 or any other code than 332.

Chuck


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I have five on my layout with no problems! Been outside for six years.
Got rid of the switch machine and put on a hand throw.
I run battery power so no need for the power to the rails.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

About the Accucraft Track:
It is nice to know, to learn. however, I am in this instance not too concerned about whether the track has the correct scale appearance, because my track will be permanently very high up on a shelf where only I will see it and not often. My main concern is derailment and price. If I find a track that can be made to fit, I only need to join it to 2 switches and 2 curved rails, so that would be 8 special joints, and a chance to acquire all the necessary straight flex brass track new in very nice extra long segments at the price of very worn second hand track. But will it work? Will it be stable? Will my trains run well over it? The seller seems to think not. But some people here seem to think otherwise.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I sure like mine never had a derailment yet.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Funny you are Trains and I am trainstrainstrains, you do mean the USA Switch and not the Accucraft track right?


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

Some of the best code 332 turnouts are the German made Thiel ones carried by Train-Li USA. Very well made and compatible with LGB motor units. Air is also an option for moving the points.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, the nature of your questions have a myriad of aspects which are not as easy to answer a simple yes or no. For instance track brand quality is depending on which specific product you are referring to and every answer has possible exceptions. 
The AMS (Accucraft) code 250 track is probably the best deal around. Cheapest to buy it by the box. The smaller rail has less brass in it. Also the brass alloy it is made from has less copper in it which makes it more brittle. Some people have problems using it to handcraft their own switches etc. but for regular use it is fine. As said you can join it with the usual code 332 rail track with special joiners. It is preferable to use the same code rail all around though. 
Accucraft also make regular code 332 rail track which is more like LGB or AristoCraft track in Euro narrow gauge or standard gauge tie spacing.

Here are just some of the track types available in Large Scale.
The ones below will give you some scope of the type available. Most of the others are similar although stainless steel and aluminium rail are not displayed. 
Below picture in order left to right:

Home made, wood ties with screws, code 332 brass rail.
AristoCraft 'USA' or standard gauge ties, code 332 brass rail.
AristoCraft Euro narrow gauge ties, code 332 brass rail.
LGB Euro narrow gauge ties, code 332 brass rail.
AMS (Accucraft) USA narrow gauge ties, code 250 brass rail.
Peco Narrow gauge ties, code 250, nickel silver rail. 
Peco Standard gauge ties, code 200, nickel silver rail. 










Andrew


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

TTT:

Since your 'layout' will be something like 12'+ off the floor, I would strongly recommend you use code 332 rail. It is stronger, and generally more resistant to unwanted movement and derailments. Code 250 and smaller rail is generally used where a more scale-like appearance is desired, but you really will not be able to see your track, at least not without a ladder or scaffold.

The type of ties (US standard or Euro narrow gauge) really doesn't matter. Both of them will serve the same purpose, and again you will not be able to see them.

I would forego the more scale-like numbered turnouts in favor of the largest radius turnouts and fixed radius track you can fit into your space. This will allow all track components to easily lineup with the adjoining track component. Easier to construct, and generally more foolproof.

Just my thoughts, but it's your RR!!

Happy RRing,

Jerry


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

For some unknown reason I was under the impression that code 250 was wider taller and stronger than code 332, perhaps because I associate Accucraft with big strong live steam, but now that you have pointed out that it it allround weaker because of material and dimensions I have lost at least some of my interest in code 250.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The code is specifically the rail height. Other aspects of the rail profile are different between manufacturers.
As you can see with Peco rail the foot of the rail is hardly visible from the top. It is cost cutting in materials such as high copper content brass alloy and solid nickel silver. 
You can click on the thumbnail then click on the image to get a large file to get a close up look.

Jerry made a good point. 
Check out Accucraft's code 332 rail track by the box. You will probably use one up.
You could collect it from eBay but multiple shipping costs may outway the savings. 

Andrew


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes they are the big USA switches.


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## Lorna (Jun 10, 2008)

If you need curved but in larger radius like 7 or 10 tran li has them. Also double curve where one radius is say 10ft and the divergent is 7ft radius.

www.trainli.com


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Another feature of Tran Li track is no tie gap when joining their track together and if the curved part of the switches are joined, no tie gap and the straights will be parallel, no special adapter sections needed for parallel, just a straight if more spacing is needed between parallel tracks. The R4 and R7 will mate and be parallel!!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

As noted, connecting different track styles and sizes can be interesting. You also have to take into consideration whether you are using track power or not. If the former, then good electrical connections are needed. 



trainstrainstrains said:


> . . . .
> 
> So; considering only the 3 specific switches in question which will all be suitable to my planned track.
> Going exclusively by the opinions expressed in the threads, my rating would be:
> ...


The next consideration is what do you want your railroad to look like? A mix of 1/29th track, modelling a standard gauge prototype, with 1/20.3 narrow gauge track, with it's larger ties and uneven spacing, may not be what you find enjoyable in the long run.

It is always easier to stick to one type of track, though i admit I had narrow gauge track on one side of my layout, and 1/32nd scale track on the other. (I ran rickety narrow gauge trains and stood on the NG side to watch them. When I got out my express standard gauge train models, I stood on the opposite side!)

Finally, in your consideration of the switches, you should think of the mechanical side. Are you changing the switch manually, with a lever at the switch, or remotely.

My suggestion, the same one we always offer, is to buy one of each, make up a small section of your layout with them, and try them for a year or two. In other words, get some real experience.


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

The more I consider it, the more I am convinced to go on the safe side. Two (or four if I decide on three trains) new Piko No 7 switches driven by new LGB motors, all new Piko track in 4' sections where possible. All code 332. New flex track where necessary and rail clamps everywhere for good connectivity.Perhaps Train Li is even better but Piko is more than good enough and the price is reasonable.


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## flats (Jun 30, 2008)

If you are into the smaller radius switches I have a left and right lgb 1800 switches for sale they are used but work good and power for 60$ each , and my mallet ran throw ok, but it did derail a few times with this switch. What I would recommend would be the aristo no 10 wide switch for the mallet, they are 3 ft long but you could start in one corner with one switch and have the other at the other corner at 180 degree from there. I have never had the mallet to derail on this switch, I have a left and right for sale at 100$ each and are used but work good, they are not power though.

Ken


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Perhaps you are referring to the No 30380 or No 30370 marked 10 ft diameter on the box?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo "Wide Radius" is curved through the rails beyond the frog, it is about a #4 frog, is 10' diameter, and it is NOT 3 foot long. The Aristo #6 is about 3 foot long, and it has a #6 frog.

Aristo also makes an LGB R1 clone, which is a 4 foot diameter, heaven knows what the frog number is.

Greg


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

What exactly is "the frog"? I have managed to deduce that it's the part where the tracks cross, that looks l suppose a bit like a real frog, but does it include the sharpened rail bits that lead to it before the tracks divide?


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using USA #6 switches for 8 years with no problems. They are great and I would highly recommend them. If you do happen to encounter problems with the wiring, they are easily fixed with a heavier gauge wire. I install all my switches with Split Jaws rail clamps to allow maintenance if necessary.

Doc


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## JerryB (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> What exactly is "the frog"?


TTT:

The "frog" is the x-shaped part of the switch where the straight rail and the diverging rail cross.

The number defines the angle of the frog and thus the steepness of the angle of the turnout. For example on a #4 frog, the rails are one unit apart at a distance of four units from the center of the frog. That is considered steep for model use, and virtually impossible for prototypes!

Here is a link the an NMRA page that discusses trackage. Although the focus of the page is H0 & N scales, the principles and diagrams of the track shown apply to all scale and gauges.

http://www.nmra.org/rp-12-turnouts-general

Poke around on the NMRA website. Lots more general information there, and it is free to use.

Happy (Well Informed) RRing,

Jerry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> What exactly is "the frog"? I have managed to deduce that it's the part where the tracks cross, that looks l suppose a bit like a real frog, but does it include the sharpened rail bits that lead to it before the tracks divide?


Now you ask !











The pointed end where the two rails meet is the "frog", in the middle of the switch shown above.

The 'sharpened rail bits" I think you are referring to are the point rails. Here's a labelled pic:


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you Pete, great explanation, are you making your own switch?


I've received the Aristo-Craft switch, it is as described, new, works perfect. I see that it must be the limit for the Mallet. Nothing smaller no.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

trainstrainstrains said:


> Thank you Pete, great explanation, are you making your own switch?


Absolutely! 
That photo came from a 2-part photo essay published in Garden Railways magazine about 12 years ago. They recently ran another, similar article on how to make a switch.

A few years ago we had a long discussion, which you might find interesting. Mike Reilley dumped it as a PDF:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/mikereilley/Track%20roadbed%20trestles%20bridges/turnout%20building.pdf
(It isn't 200 pages long, but it does go on for 13 or more!)

There's also a good online resource at the Saskatoon Railroad Modellers site:
http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/construction/lsbuild/lsswitch.html


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

TTT, 

Take note how the gaurd rail stops the wheels from straying while going through the frog.
This is why back to back measurement on your wheel sets are vital going through switches and are the usual source of problems.
Also note that model switches are usually flange bearing, meaning the wheels ride on their flanges going through a switch frog. Different flange depths on wheels can create problems also. Some switches with long frogs have a metal strip in bottom of frog so electrical continuity is maintained with metal wheels. If the flange is not deep enough they won't contact. Things to watch out for.

Andrew


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## trainstrainstrains (Nov 9, 2014)

Now that I own a switch I can see all these phenomena clearly. Thanks.This Aristocraft switch is nice but all my other switches I think will be Piko for less problems.


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## Cushtime2 (Jan 29, 2014)

*Dimensions for USAT switch*

TTT, I have some dimensions for the USAT switch that I had got from one of the other train layout programs. I ended up redrawing the switch (simplified) so I could design my railroad using AutoCad. I still have not printed this out to scale to lay it over the switch to see if it really is correct so you should take these dimension with a grain of salt or two. I hope it is pretty close since my plans already include these switches and I plan on breaking ground (finally) this spring.
View attachment R81615.pdf


Good Luck and hope this helps.

Cush


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