# NCE???



## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Is any one else hearing of problems in new NCE systems. I don't mean a new product, but PH-10R's being shipped.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, 2 friends just bought theirs, working fine. What kind of issues? 

Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Got mine.....


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I talked this guy into NCE because of cost, good reputation, and features. He never could get it to work, even with calls to NCE. 

They asked him to return it, with no offer to pay for shipping. They had it seven weeks.

When it returned, still did not work. The tech said he had new boards for it and to send it back.

NCE has it now. For the second time. Seems pretty bad. All I hear about NCE has been good, until now.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Every company has this happen sometime. Over the last years I have had mine, no problems. So 100 good, one bad, sounds like the exception.. 

They CAN take a long time for repairs. (You did not mention if it was in warranty, and what specifically "did not work") 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

It was a new system under warranty. Upon start up it would not link, or come to the correct start screen. It didn't matter if it was wired or wireless.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bizarre.. usually you can narrow it down to the throttle or command station right away. Sometimes it is something weird, works at factory, not at home, find out someone is using a bad cable. 

I have basically two (or more) of everything, so simple substitution points to the problem. 

Greg


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All, 

I would agree with Greg, I have had nothing but GREAT experiences with NCE. They are helpful and ussually get back to you in a very timely fashion. You are hitting the time of year when most Northern G Scalers are getting their stuff out, trying it again and finding out what is working and what is not, so when they find the stuff that is not working, they send it in! I woudl also agree with Greg that it is ussually some other component (cable, controller, etc.). Do you have duplicates of any of the other items or do you have someone that can lend you theirs?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have another complete system. I will work on the process of elimination. Because it has returned and not working.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

One other item to eliminate - what are you using for a *power supply *to the NCE system







When I first converted to DCC, I used my former DC power pack (an old, long-discontinued CMI "Hogger" which I had picked up years before from eBay) to supply my PowerHouse Pro 10-amp system. Initially, this was indoors, on a relatively small layout. When I finally got around to building my much larger outdoor railroad, I installed the NCE components in a plastic tote to enable me to use the system on either layout. After about a year or so, I started having *intermittent problems *with loss of power or erratic operation (my first suspect was the NCE system itself







); but I finally determined that the actual culprit was the *old CMI "Hogger" pack *







. (When I discovered that the NCE system operated *far better *







when supplied by a *much older (late 1940's! *







*) American Flyer transformer! *A permanent cure was to replace the both the CMI "Hogger" & ancient AF transformer with a modern Meanwell 27-volt, 10 amp switching regulated DC power supply - no power issues since.
















*Tom*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I had a similar experience with the Aristo Everest power supply. It was originally intended to be a universal power supply, and Aristo sent out 2 of them, one to me and one to Leonard Kerns. Whenever we switched on our NCE systems, the temporary surge turned off the output of the Everest. 

They tried several fixes, but this still happened. Our NCE systems were turned on with NOTHING on the rails. A hyperactive overload circuit was the culprit apparently. Any other supply I have used, whether the NCE 10 amp AC transformer, or my Meanwell switching supplies have been fine. 

Stranger things have happened, so the process of elimination will help. 

If you can give a better description than "it does not work" that will help. There are status indicators on both the booster and the command station, and lcd screens on the throttles. The state of these indicators should make the troubleshooting easy. 

Regards, Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

The timing could not be better with this thread. The antenna broke on my NCE 10a system CAB so I sent it back to be repaired. I did not want to be without a CAB so I bought a back up CAB. The new CAB does not have an antenna. The new CAB worked for awile and then it started to act weird. It would not link up or turn off and it seemed to be eating batteries. I sent it back to NCE and they are working on it now. Now I have my repaired CAB so I figured I would use it while the other one was being repaired. Guess what, my second CAB will not link with the repeater. The CAB works fine while plugged into the base station but will not work wireless. The screen comes on but it will not communicate with the base(no flashing red LED). I spoke to NCE and they are working on the first CAB in an effort to get at least one of them working. Here is some more irony, I have a CAB04 and that communicates with base, no problem. I am really stumped.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So the new cab does not have an external antenna... that should not make any difference... (I personally like the external antennas)... 

The first cab apparently did not get fixed... if your CAB04R (it must be an R for radio) works, then it's the other cabs. 

Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

As the saying goes, "A picture's worth 1000 words."







So here's about 7000 words







worth...









Start with an ordinary-looking, inexpensive plastic file tote....










Open it up, & here's whats inside...


















I call it my "Box of DCC"







Here's how it normally looks when in use...










Connecting to the railroad couldn't be much simpler







; the main power feed to the railroad to the railroad terminates in a dual banana plug...


















Which simply plugs into a dual banana jack installed through the side of the tote...










In addition to the wireless ProCab, I also have a wired one. Since the "Watuppa Railway" is built elevated @ 2 feet above ground, a holder from a long-retired landline phone







, screwed to the front of the "benchwork", holds either the wired or the wireless cab at a convenient height...


















Here's a closer look inside....


















Starting clockwise from upper left, visible is the backside of the dual banana jack (actually it's a triple one, but I only use the top 2) for connection to the railroad power feed; the Meanwell 27-10 27-volt, 10-amp switching regulated power supply; the 10-amp NCE booster (strapped with a Velcro strap atop the NCE command station); on the lower right front of the command station, a 3-to-1 modular phone jack adapter (common Radio Shack item) permitting easy simultaneous connection of the NCE wireless receiver & the wired ProCab (the coiled wire going off to the upper left is the cable for the wired cab); a spare 10-amp booster, currently not in use; at lower left, the NCE wireless receiver, which normally sits atop the tote (the tote lid is NOT a "super tight" fit, enabling me to close it gently on the coiled wires without damaging them), & underneath the wireless receiver, the NCE manual & other documentation for quick "field reference"







. Oh, & if you're wondering about that loose blue wire pair lying in the bottom of the tote, that's the programming track leads. (Since it gets used relatively rarely when I'm setting up a new loco, I usually just use a set of alligator-clipped jumpers to connect it to a stretch of isolated track for the loco I'm programming). One of these days, I'll install a dedicated jack for it. (Probably when I get "A Round Tuit".







).

Hope this gives you a few ideas on setting up your NCE system.







*Tom*


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am wondering if you are running this as track power could you not be getting interferance from something else. AKA Dirty Power. Could be coming from a neighbor house getting on the power line. 

What about a broken ground on the power pack? 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ, not that it is impossible, but unlike other track-powered RC systems, DCC is highly resistant to interference, it is a full voltage square wave, not a small signal riding on DC or AC. 

The problems described by the original poster is completely unknown just "it does not work" 

The problem described by Tom was probably a defective or noisy supply, changing the supply did indeed fix the problem, so that is clear. 

The problem described by Kenny is indeed a radio problem in the 2 cabs that do not work. The fact a 3rd cab works with the rest of the system makes that clear. 

DCC is very robust outside, and normally your power supply completely isolates you from "dirty" AC input. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Mike, if I can be of any assistance, give me an email, or you can have my cell number.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow Tom thats a great set up, looks good


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One note of caution to Tom, if you are running the system near it's max of 10 amps, you need air circulation around the booster, the power transistors are attached to the back of the case... perhaps spacing it up a bit and a small circulating fan would be good in warm weather. 

Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, thanks for the complement.









Greg, I do try to watch out for overall system operating temperature, *particularly if I'm running in warm weather. *If it's warm out, I usually leave the tote lid open an inch or so to let heat out. (Conversely, I'll keep it shut if I'm running in *damp weather or snow). * I'd say the only train I have that comes close to taxing the system is when I'm running my USA Trains New Haven "Merchants Limited" streamliner, 5 cars & 2 USA Alco PA's, the lead one equipped with a Phoenix P5 sound card. Prior to converting the PA's to DCC & installing the sound card, I measured the fully lit train pulling *7.5 amps *







running on straight DC power. The New Haven streamliner is also the *only train I regularly run at full throttle. *







Even at that, my biggest concern is the durablility *(or more accurately, lack thereof! *







) of the idler gears in the PA's trying to pull *100 lbs. *







of USA aluminum streamlined cars up the mainline's 3% grade. (Towards the upper third of the grade, the PA's often aren't moving much faster than a Shay-powered freight







- at least going *downgrade, *the train appears to be doing a scale 80 ~ 90 MPH.







). Although it looks *fantastic *







running after dark, there's not a lot of "operational" possibilities







with the streamliner other making occasional station stops with it; also, I have a comparatively small 1:29 scale freight roster at the moment, most of which I haven't yet converted for Kadees, so the 1:29 New Haven stuff gets comparatively little running, relative to the days I run 1:20.3 freelance narrow gauge.


I'd say probably *90% *of my operation is the narrow-gauge steam prototypes.







*ALL *the 1:20.3 locos & probably 50 ~ 60 % of the 1:20.3 rolling stock are Kadee-equipped, most of the balance being Accucraft couplers. Having the Kadees makes it *fun *







to do switching; also, *Shays *are the *predominant loco type *on the "Watuppa Railway", with *six *of them on the roster (the single Bachmann 3-truck Shay, three Bachmann 2-truck Shays, & the 2 Accucraft live-steam Shays). Another big loco which sees a lot of use is the Bachmann 2-6-6-2T Mallet, equipped with a QSI sound card. I operate the 1:20.3 equipment at prototypically correct low speeds; the Shays creep around at @ a scale 12 ~ 15 MPH or less. The Mallet is my "fast freight" loco







& runs a bit faster, say about a scale 30 ~ 35 MPH. Three trains seems to be about the maximum number I can run at a time by myself; it's not uncommon to have the Mallet on a manifest freight, the 3-truck Shay on a coal drag, my Bachmann "Centennial" Mogul on a passenger train, & a dedicated switcher on the mining / logging branch (usually a 2-truck Shay, Heisler, or Climax), with at least 2 trains running simultaneously, all sound equipped, & I've had *no power issues since installing the Meanwell power supply. *Also, the Meanwell's output voltage is *not *set it's 27-volt maximum; the Bachmann 3-truck Shay, which has the factory "Tsunami / Quasinimi"







sound decoder, does *not *like to see excessively high DCC track voltage (it'll object by just sitting there with it's lights flashing indicating an *over-voltage error *







), so if I remember correctly, I have the Meanwell output normally set to deliver *24 volts DC *input to the NCE booster. Also, the larger locos are *rarely *worked to *"maximum tonnage" *







capacity; freight trains are usually held to the limit of the *shorter *of my 2 mainline passing sidings, typically 7 ~ 8 car trains. (In tests, the Mallet maxed out on *11 1:20.3 cars *up the 3% grade; the tonnage "champ" is the *3-truck Shay, *which has hauled as many as *13* cars upgrade). Limiting the train lengths will also keep loco current drain down accordingly.









Treeman, I'll also second Greg's comment on giving us a bit more of problem description beyond *"Doesn't work." *







*- *That could mean anything from a *totally dead system *







to one which *might be fully OK from a hardware standpoint BUT with locomotive decoders improperly installed or programmed. *







Are any indicators lit on the NCE system? If you're using the wireless NCE throttle, *try plugging it into the control station *(disconnect the cord going to the wireless receiver & plug it into the bottom of the ProCab; the ProCab should operate as a wired throttle *even without batteries installed. *Have you tried more than one locomotive? Did you install locomotive decoders yourself, & if so, have they had *addresses programmed? *(Usually the locomotive's number is the "address". Give us a bit more of a description of the problem so we can give you some decent advice.







*Tom*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, if you ever get a wild hair, you can easily make a diode array for the shay to drop the track voltage a few volts to get around the high voltage sensitivity. A full wave bridge and a few more diodes in series, and you can drop it down. Now you may not need it if the rest of your trains run fast enough. It also might be useful if you run on someone else's layout. 

I made a real compact one for a small loco: 










Regards, Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep, know about the diode bridge trick, Greg.







Will probably do it next time I have a reason to tear into the 3-Truck Shay (although the *primary *reason to do so might be to replace the "Quasinimi" with a *better *sound decoder!







- audio output level on it is somewhat pathetic compared to the Phoenix & QSI boards!).







*Tom*


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I got down to Gorden's this afternoon to see if I could figure out the problem with his system. He is the fellow that purchased it and has sent it back to NCE twice. I found that when powered the first screen stays on, not going to the second screen with the loco address. He is powered with a CRE 55465 with 3 voltage outputs, he had it set to the medium voltage, I think 18V. I changed it to 23V and the correct operating screen came up. After having it on and off several times this afternoon, at the higher voltage some times the operating screen would come on sometimes it would not. Turning it on and off and back on it would eventually come on and operate correctly. This does seem to be related to the power supply. I will get back to his place to try another power supply. I have been using a similar CRE with my Massoth with no problems.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like a wiring problem with the radio repeater.. Change the cable from the command station to the base station to a short one, that also has all 6 pins in the connector. 

Disconnect any other cab wiring or adapters... one wire from the cab bus socket to the rb02 base station... nothing else... 

18v should be fine, as well as 24v. 


Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I knew it should be OK on 18 V. This was with the cab wired. I can try a short cable to the cab.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, somehow I have confused the issue. 

Rereading the thread, I missed that the problem Mike stated was wired or wireless... very surprising... so this should be easy to debug with a second cable and a second handset. 

I also muddled things by replying to Kenny, my last comments were really for Kenny with the wireless suggestions. 

Anyway, I'll await the results of testing. 

Regards, Greg


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## Kenny (Feb 15, 2008)

Greg, thanks for the help. I sent both my CABs back to NCE. It is ironic that I bought the second one as a back up for the first! As I said before my CAB04r, which is radio, communicates with the base fine. Both my other CABs failed at about the same time. I now have nothing to use on the RR as far as programming goes. I am keeping my fingers crossed that NCE resolves these issues quickly.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand about backup! My friends (yes, I have friends!) all laugh about "Mr. Backup".... I have 4 NCE throttles and 2 systems, and a backup 10 amp booster and power supply. Nothing more irritating than when I have the time to run trains and something does not work. 

On a trip, I even bring a backup laptop in case the main one fails. 

Greg


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## MrDCC (Dec 27, 2007)

Greg - 

Do you wear a belt and suspenders, too? 

Bruce


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So far my pants stay up w/o the belt, so the belt is backup... not sure how long that will last though! ha ha! 

Greg 

p.s. you should have seen my "survival kit" I would take on trips to Japan...


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

OK, I got back to this problem. Gorden brought his system back to me after sending it to NCE twice. I now have 2 complete systems on the bench here at the shop. Both systems are new and have very little use. One has the external antenna one the internal. Both do the same thing. When powered with the cab wired, I have changed the wire with 3 different cables. The cab shows:
NCE PROCAB V1.3
CAB ADDRESS =2 

I now have it powered with an LGB 1 AMP DC throttle for testing.
On the command station I have a yellow track light.
On the booster I have the switch to normal. I have a red status light and a red power light.
I have changed all components, one at a time. The display now is staying the same, as above. 

It has come up to the operating screen in the past, but will not now.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1 amp is not enough to power the system reliably. 

You did not state that it worked reliably powered up wired throttles. 

Also, it's not clear, but you did not state that you tried 2 different radio base stations. 

It sounds like you have a "layout id" problem. The earlier NCE wireless equipment can have a layout id of 0 through 3 I believe. This was intended to allow different wireless systems to work near each other, like at a show. 

You need the wireless throttles AND the wireless base station all set to the same layout id. 

If not, everything else looks normal, but the wireless throttles never communicate and cannot control anything. 

Remember you need to set the layout id (I recommend 0) on the throttle with the antenna... I believe the one with the internal antenna is hardwired to zero. 

The base station can sometimes change it's layout id... see my web site under the NCE section on how to set the layout id on the base station. Setting the throttles is in the manual. 



Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

As with mine the layout ID has to be set to 1 to make things work. Every once in awhile I get a glich and have to reset. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

From my site:

*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>**

Radio system just "quits": Recently my radio system just failed to work. The radio cabs booted up to the first screen, but not the second screen where you see the loco number, the time, etc. The light on the cab did blink fast like it should, and the RB02 appeared to be dead.
I called Larry at NCE and asked about sending in for repair. He told me that sometimes the layout ID changes in the RB02, and referred me to page 6 of the RB02 manual. Well, that was it, it had changed to 1 from zero. Great, saved me a couple of weeks!
(RB02 units come default at layout 0, I had used layout id 1 to avoid problems)
The setting of the Layout ID in the RB02: (be sure you have the layout ID the same on the other radio cabs too)
1. Unplug the RB02 from the cab bus. Do not turn off the system power.
2. Plug a ProCab into the PORT A connector of the RB02 using any standard Cab Bus cable. If a repeater cable is in the expansion port, remove it.
3. Restore the Cab Bus connection to the RB02
4. Type the desired layout id number then press enter.
5. Unplug the ProCab from Port A to enable the RB02, It will not operate until you remove the cab.
6. Restore any repeater connections that were disconnected in step 2.
This has happened a couple of times. Maybe the best thing is to use always use zero at your own layout?*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike, whatever happened here? 

Greg


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