# Need Help With LGB "American-style" 2-4-0 Squeak



## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

I have an LGB Coca-Cola Christmas starter set, which I believe has an American-style 2-4-0 locomotive.
Unfortunately, the locomotive has developed a VERY annoying squeak when it runs moving forward.
(Oddly enough, the squeak does not seem to be an issue when it is operating in reverse....)
The engine will make several laps around the track - maybe even run for several minutes, before the dreaded squeak starts.
The squeak is so loud and obnoxious that I am unable to run my train around my tree, which is a major bummer 
 
I have tried lubricating the end of the axles with LGB 50019 Maintenance Oil, as prescribed in the LGB Knowledge Base (from back when the LGBoA site was still around), but that did not help.
I also opened the gear box and put a drop of the oil on the plastic gears that I could see - but that did not help either...
 
The squeak sounds more like a metal on metail sound, so I did not think lubricating the plastic gears inside would help.
The only metal on metal I noticed while working on the train were two metal "studs" (one on each side of the gear box) on a spring that engage the drive wheels.
I assume these are to maintain the wheel spacing as the engine moves along the track? Could these be causing the noise? Or is it (gulp) the motor itself?
 
I would love to have this train moving around my tree again next year, any suggestions you all could make would be greatly appreciated!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Those are pickup brushes. They are normally made from carbon. You can lubricate them, but you need the right lubricant. The conductive lube for motors, sold by Bachmann and others will work. 

This is a known reason for squeaking. 

Do NOT use regular oil or grease, it will gum up everything. 

Regards, Greg


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

Thanks Greg, I will get some contact lube as you suggest and give it a try.
Do you think it is the brushes since the train only seems to squeak when moving forward?
I would think that the brushes would squeak regardless of wheel direction; although I am hopeful for a simple solution such as this!
I did notice a slight wear pattern on the wheels from the brushes, should I try to smooth that out at all? Not sure how I would do that though...


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB of America had a technical notice on the very issue, just as you describe it. 

The .pdf is gone, but if I remember correctly, the solution was a bit of their conductive grease, just as Greg pointed out.


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

Before applying any lube on the back of the wheels, clean them first, (wipe off the black stuff) with LGB smoke/cleaner fluid or something equivalent.

PS,

After cleaning the back sides of the wheels you could apply a light coating of your LGB 50019 Maintenance Oil on the back of the wheels where the brushes make contact. Caustion, a heavier grease my clog up on the brushes and interfear with the contact of the brushes.
At one time this info was posted here on MLS but with all these new forums here on MLS over the years info is not that easy to find anymore.


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

In addition to lubricating the brushes on the back of the 4 wheels, should I also lube the 2 brushes that make contact with track?
Should I be lubricating the entire track?


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

No, do not lube the bottoms of the two pickup shoes nor the track as this will cause wheel slippage and your loco will not move/pull to good at all


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

Thanks guys - I have tried cleaning the wheels again with LGB's Smoke & Cleaning Fluid and re-applying another drop of the LGB Maintenance oil to each of the 4 wheel brushes, the noise still persists. 
I am begining to think that there is an issue with my motor as the squeak is not present when the train is run in reverse. 
I will send an email to Silvergate to see if they can offer repair/replacement of the motor.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Have them send you the tech notice. My memory was the problem was directional.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You can remove the wheel pickups (the brushes) and just run it on the sliders. That will tell you immediately if the squeak is coming from them or not. 

By the way, I do not recommend ANY oil on the brushes, it always results in black goop in my experience. The brushes are carbon and somewhat porus. Grease should NEVER be used. 

Try the experiment and see what happens, will only take a few minutes to remove them. 

Regards, Greg


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

Greg,

I conducted your suggested experiment and removed the brushes.
Unfortunately, the squeak remains







. Which at least eliminates that variable.

I have sent an email to Silvergate to see what they recommend and requested an estimate should the unit need to go in for repairs.
I will let you all know what Silvergate comes back with.

Thanks again for everyone's help so far.
And by all means, while we wait on Silvergate, keep the ideas coming.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Can you take the valve gear off? 

Second thought, lube everything that moves... even if you think it's already ok... check the valve gear. 

Squeaking on one direction could be that the worm on the motor shaft is pushing an axle sideways enough to rub on something, but in reverse, the axle is pushed the other way... 

Can you lay it on it's back, power it, and apply resistance with your fingers? Maybe then you can see something rubbing in that case. 

Regards, Greg


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

Greg,

I tried turning the locomotive on its back and running it.
Something interesting for sure, but puzzling none the less:

The squeak does not occur with the loco upside down!

I tried pushing on the wheels as you suggested with my fingers to add a little pressure.
I even tried pushing the wheels to the left and right and all sorts of ways and could not reproduce the sound...

Could this be pointing to the track?
I must admit since it is a Christmas layout it is not nailed down as it needs to be put away each season.
The track sits on a solid 3/4" pine base and is neatly embedded in LGB rubber road bed (61100).
However; I do notice some slight flex in the track as the train moves around...

I did not check the valve gear yet, well um... because... what is the valve gear?
I looked around your web site (nice site by the way - very informative) and on the web and could not figure out what the valve gear is...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Does the squeak happen in the same place on the track each time, or is it in random places. 

Same place: track or just flange squealing. 

Different places: locomotive. 

Valve gear is all the rods that move around and go into the pistons. 

Regards, Greg


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## bdodge (Apr 12, 2009)

lube the motor a couple drops of oil down the shaft of the motor @each end may solve the problem


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Only happens in one direction, and not on it's back, that kind of rules out the motor bearings. 

Regards, Greg


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## emipapa (Jan 2, 2008)

Take a look between the drive wheels and you will see a small hole, put a couple drops of the LGB Liquid Lube (RED in a pen applicator) in the holes. There is a hole on both sides of the loco and that is how I cured my squeaking problem. I found the cure in the teck notice that someone spoke about. 
Good Luck, 
Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What does that hole lead to? Any idea? Is there a hole between each of the drive wheels? 

Regards, Greg


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## emipapa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg, 
I was a little confused when I replyed the first time so I do hope this clears up any confussion. I went to the basement and took my 2-4-0- out of the box cand checked it out. 
There are 2 DRIVE WHEELS on each side of the locomotive and if my memory serves me correct and in one of LGB'S technical notices it said to put a drop or two of LGB Lubrication on the shaft ends. Behind each drive wheel near the top there are SILVER "SHAFT END". These four shaft ends need to be lubricated along with the side rods (page 10 owners manual). These ends are in the power brick or gear box and I have never had mine apart to see just what I was lubricating. I also had the squeaking problem and by lubricating them it cured the problem. The LGB lubing pen will be needed becausing these shaft ends are behind the drive wheels and can be seen between the spokes of the drive wheels. Somewhere in my files in the basement I think I may have a copy of the notice, If I find it I will forward it. Hoping this clears things up a little. 
Regards, 
Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, perfectly, it's apparently intermediate shafts with gears on them, to get the proper final drive ratio. 

The notice would be great if you find it. 

Regards, Greg


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## emipapa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Again Greg, 

Just thought that you would like to know that I have located the information that I spoke about and it was LGB Knowledge Database # 1220. I will forward this information once I have my wife scan it into the computer later this evening. 

Regards, 
Ron 
Cape Cod


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When oiling the axles in LGB locos, do not over do it, same with grease on the gears. 
When the oil or grease gets i nthe motor, the carbon brushes heat up and damage the motor!!! 

I have replaced many motors from over lubrication of the engine. 

LGB maintenance clinic I attended in the MYSTIC, CT meet told us to use only a half drop on an axle, a little goes a long way!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Dan. 

I surely understand the dangers of overlubrication. 

But how can you get oil into the motor by lubing the axles? I would think you would have to fill the entire brick with oil to get it into the motor? 

Regards, greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Greg I’m with you. But in the extreme cases it would get into the motor, some people get carried away with lube. If things don’t work just add more lube!

I once fixed up an LGB stainz for someone and there was that much lube the motor it was almost swimming! My hands were black from all the stuff I had to clean out of it. It was a said case, but I got it working. 

Good luck with finding the squeak. Maybe it's a mouse? 

Alan


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

If you over lube the gear box, then run the engine awhile, the motor heats up and the grease turns to a semi liquid and then it gets all over the place. 
Add to this the engine after running gets placed back in the original box, then in a automobile with the train engine laying on its side (original set boxes for example), 
the grease goes everywhere in the motor block. 

I see grease in the joint of the top cover on many engines where the cover meets the body. 
I see grease inside the LGB electric motors, and it got there somehow and as I think about how I carry my own equipment I surmised the above scenarios.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh...I understand Dan. I will submit that the greases I use do not liquefy at anywhere near that low a temperature. 

I suggest a much better grease than whatever you have observed. I know the Hob-E-Lube greases will not do this, nor will the Aero-car NG gel. 

All lithium-based greases have a very high melting point, and the puny temperatures of a normal-running loco will not liquefy them. 

Not trying to give a hard time, I'm sure that many of these problems are from oils, that have somehow gotten flung all over the inside of the gearboxes, just want to emphasize that quality grease does not liquefy at these temperatures. 

Regards, Greg


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## defrost (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi Guys, 

I have been having the exact same problem as christmasloco with the same locomotive. I've tried all the relevant suggestions and the squeaking still persists. Ron: Would it be possible for you to send me the LGB Knowledge Database #1220 as well? I would really appreciate it, along with any other suggestions. 

Thanks, 

Damien 

PS - I'm sure you all have seen many videos of trains, but here's mine from this year: (It also has a photo of the squeaky locomotive, and the squeaking in the video is from metal wheels binding on curves, not the loco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnw6-aA1TC4


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ron sent me the word document, I will post it, but I have copied the text here, there are no drawings or diagrams: 



*Knowledge Database*


*Number:*


*1220*


*Title:*


*How can I stop my American- Style 2-4-0 locomotive from squeaking?*


*Last Modified:*


*12 03 2004*


*LGB locos generally require very little lubrication. (See Knowledge Database 1044 for more information.)*


*However, on the newer American-style “2-4-0” locos—included in many starter sets – the front “pilot” axle bearings can often benefit from lubrication.*


*Also, there are a few hard-to-find places on these locos that can often benefit from lubrication. There locomotives use idler gears to reduce the gear ratio, enabling more realistic speeds. These gears rest on axles located inside the gearbox, but they can be lubricated from the outside. *


*Lay the locomotive on its side, on a soft surface to protect its parts.*


*Turn the drive wheels until you can see a little metal dot through the spoked wheels. This is the end of the axle.*


*Apply a small amount of LGB 50019 Maintenance Oil to the axle. Then repeat.*


*There are four total points to oil, two on each side. Make sure all are well oiled.*


*Use a cotton swab to wipe up any excess, making sure not to leave any for dirt to accumulate on.*


*If this does not solve the problem, send your loco to an LGB service station. (See Knowledge Database 1014 for service information.) Please remember that it is not possible to eliminate all noise. Some may just be the result of the many moving parts inside your LGB locomotive.*


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## defrost (Jan 8, 2010)

Thanks Greg.

Damien


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB 2-4-0 as well as Moguls have an idler gear between the motor worm gear and the axle gear. 
This gear sits on a shaft which if you look behind a wheel you can see the end of this shaft. 
Lubiing the shaft end may allow the shaft to turn in the gear box housing, but this is not the way to fix the engine, the gear should turn freely on the shaft if properly lubricated. 
Most shafts I have seen fit tight and do not turn, just the idler gear turns.


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## emipapa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello everyone, 
I would like to say that I am NOT an LGB Repairperson and I do have all the respect in the world for Dan Pierce and what he has to say about the 2-4-0 locomotive. When I had the problem with my 2-4-0 I was new to the hobby and knew no one so researched the LGB Knowledge Database because I thought that LGB would be the place to get the correct answer to my problem. As you can see above Greg posted the response I received from LGB and if this information is incorrect I am sorry if it caused you any problems. However, I must say that I did lube my 2-4-0 in the four shaft ends as recommended by LGB in 2002 and to this day I have not had another squeak or unusual noise. 
Ron Sgroi 
Cape Cod Massachusetts


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That is good news Ron. 

I now remember seeing that extra idler gear shaft now, and I'm sure it is often overlooked. Glad it's fixed. 

Dan's information is also interesting, if simple lubrication does not fix it, it may require disassembly and checking the "bearing" surfaces to make sure the shafts turn freely on their own. 

All good information and a good ending! 

Regards, Greg


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## christmasloco (Jan 3, 2010)

Hey guys, thanks for all the help with this.
I was aware of that KB from LGBoA back in the day.
Unfortunately lubricating those gears did not work for me.

I even opened up the gear box and lubricated everything i could find, including the idle gear shaft, (being careful not to over do it) and closed it back up.
I ran the train for about 6 minutes before the squeak returned... darn it anyway.
Also, I was wrong it does do it in reverse too - guess I never let it run long enough in reverse to notice it.

The fact that it was quiet for 6 minutes tells me either something it getting "hot" as it runs and then causes the squeak or whatever is rubbing gets rid of any lube after a few minutes...

Unfortunately, it is time for the my Chirstmas Loco to return to its box until next season. 

Thanks again guys.

BTW - never heard a word from Silvergate - that was kinda disappointing....

Oh well there is always next year!!
Maybe then Walthers or Marklin will have a US repair facility that I can send it to.
It would be worth some dollars to have this expensive train running right again.... [script removed]


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## defrost (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi Guys, 

Thanks for all your help. I tried lubricating the idler gear shafts and it seemed to help, although I would have to agree with Dan that this shaft does not seem to turn freely and therefore lubricating it should not effect the performance of the loco. 

Thanks again, 

Damien


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, if the shaft does not turn freely by itself (of course it won't when the motor and axles are in place!!) then it most likely would be a problem. 

Regards, Greg


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

It sounds like the motor may be bad if everything else has been lubed/oiled.
They do go bad now and then.
You could try oiling the motot shaft on each end of the motor.
Some times the motor bushing need oil too.





Posted By christmasloco on 09 Jan 2010 02:32 PM 

Hey guys, thanks for all the help with this.
I was aware of that KB from LGBoA back in the day.
Unfortunately lubricating those gears did not work for me.

I even opened up the gear box and lubricated everything i could find, including the idle gear shaft, (being careful not to over do it) and closed it back up.
I ran the train for about 6 minutes before the squeak returned... darn it anyway.
Also, I was wrong it does do it in reverse too - guess I never let it run long enough in reverse to notice it.

The fact that it was quiet for 6 minutes tells me either something it getting "hot" as it runs and then causes the squeak or whatever is rubbing gets rid of any lube after a few minutes...

Unfortunately, it is time for the my Chirstmas Loco to return to its box until next season. 

Thanks again guys.

BTW - never heard a word from Silvergate - that was kinda disappointing....

Oh well there is always next year!!
Maybe then Walthers or Marklin will have a US repair facility that I can send it to.
It would be worth some dollars to have this expensive train running right again.... [script removed]


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The idler gear shaft is not supposed to turn, if it did it would slide out and rub against the driving wheels. 

The idler gear is supposed to be lubed and turn on this metal shaft. 

Same for the other engines with LGB idler gears.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By christmasloco on 09 Jan 2010 02:32 PM 
Hey guys, thanks for all the help with this.
I was aware of that KB from LGBoA back in the day.
Unfortunately lubricating those gears did not work for me.

I even opened up the gear box and lubricated everything i could find, including the idle gear shaft, (being careful not to over do it) and closed it back up.
I ran the train for about 6 minutes before the squeak returned... darn it anyway.
Also, I was wrong it does do it in reverse too - guess I never let it run long enough in reverse to notice it.

The fact that it was quiet for 6 minutes tells me either something it getting "hot" as it runs and then causes the squeak or whatever is rubbing gets rid of any lube after a few minutes...

Unfortunately, it is time for the my Chirstmas Loco to return to its box until next season. 

Thanks again guys.

BTW - never heard a word from Silvergate - that was kinda disappointing....

Oh well there is always next year!!
Maybe then Walthers or Marklin will have a US repair facility that I can send it to.
It would be worth some dollars to have this expensive train running right again.... [script removed] 

No, the lack of reply is unfortunately typical. 

Anyhow, there are others that do offer repair service, Watts Trainshop and TrainLi are two places you may want to contact?

http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/r...-c-85.html

Watts (website is being rebuilt) 1-800-542-7652 
Good luck!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

uhh... doesn't the idler shaft rotate in the housing? 

If not, why would LGB say to lube it? 

Dan, you appear to be saying that the shaft is locked in rotation, and the gear spins on the shaft. 


I am confused. 

Greg


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## emipapa (Jan 2, 2008)

That is an EXCELLENT observation Greg. 
Ron


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

The shaft does not move. The idler gear is lose on the shaft, hence why to lube the shaft/gear contact.


You can see it (grey) and shaft here:


http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200806278


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I looked up the 20230 / 20231 2-4-0 loco exploded drawing.

I see the idler shaft fits in a hole in the side of the motor block.

All I can guess is that there is enough clearance to allow oil to seep in to lube the idler gear on the shaft.

Looking at the shaft, it has no grooves or anything to retain it, so it must be clamped in place in the motor block or at least a tight fit.

Will have to look at one sometime, but I would think directly oiling it by opening the block would be better. 

Maybe doing the LGB service procedure works well enough most times. 


Regards, Greg


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

He mentioned directly lubricating the intermediate shaft/plastic gears early on. Sounds like the motor to me... Pull the motor its easy, power it up on the bench and see what happens. How many laps does this engine have on it? 

Removing the electric motor for routine maintenance is good practice IMO; generally there is a lot of debris within the can. You can use electronic parts cleaners, RC Car/Airplane cleaners, and other stuff including water. After drying out the motor lubricate the bushings and it doesn't hurt to put some "comm drops" on the brushes too. In the old days we actually broke the motors in under water @ 1.5V, its amazing how much black particulate polluted the water. 

Michael


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, in order to change out a worn idler gear on the 2-4-0 (20232) you must use something to drive the shaft out of the case. I use a worn out small drill bit. 

LGB moguls have a shaft that can be lifted out of the chassis, you can not do this with the 2-4-0, the shaft is longer and sits real tight in the motor block, and I do not believe oil can seep past the shaft from the outside. 

Not that if this shaft had any play, the idler gear would have play and you would have an issue of stripping the gears all the time, axle and idler!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So the LGB bulletin is then confusing, how would lubricating the end of the shaft work? 

Something is fishy. I believe you guys about the shaft, I can see that the shaft has nothing to keep it in place other than friction with the case. 

Regards, Greg


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