# New K-4



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The HA&RG RR ordered a new post-war K-4 today!  It should be here next week.    The Kay will be mostly used in fast passenger service.

Updates on progress to be posted here...

JimC.


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

*Jim, as a long-time PRR "foamer"/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif, **I'm considering getting one of these myself.  Let us know how you like it!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Tom *


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2008)

Jim,
 good choice, nice loco, give me a shout on my email i can give you a couple of tips on this loco before you put it on the track to make sure it's ok 
Nick....       /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Tooo cool Jim!
LAO


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Not here yet..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

2/13/08:  The *Brown* truck is supposed to arrive today.. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif      

Nick S, did you get my email?  Thanks to GregE. for all the good info he is providing about the K4 on his website.

JimC.

*edited:  1:32PM ...THE K4 ARRIVED ! ! !*    Unpacked it ... *WOW!.*   Lubed it per instructions.   *Couldn't wait !*   Took it out to inner loop *[track power capable],* gave the track a cursory rub with the sheet-rock-cleaner-on-a-stick *[loop hasn't been used with track power since september],* mostly to insure that debris wasn't on the track.  Placed the K-4,  hooked up the MRC 10A transformer, and..........
*
*
*to be continued with pictures later tonight. 
JimC.

*Sorry for the delay, but I have to get ready and go teach an evening class.*


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

*First a word about self-preservation:  This is not a good time of year to wear the good sneakers out to the layout and then come into the house.   Wifey amazingly develops the ability to lower her brow all the way down to her chin.* /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif

I got the K4.  It was packed extremely well.  










The loco packing comes with a metal framed, wood bottomed carrier that it is held down to with packaging tape. 










The instructions that come with it detail lubrication points to be oiled prior to operation.  The detail all over this engine and tender are outstanding.  The finish is without flaw that I found.










Although I told GregE. that it would be several days before I tried to run it, I COULDN"T WAIT !  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif
The K4 was placed on the inner loop that is track power capable, a quick cleanup was done on the rails, the MRC 10A transformer was hooked up, and she ran. 

I had derails by the front truck, each of the first four loops made.    However, they were at exactly the same spot.  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif  The spot was one of the few places on the layout that still use ballast fill roadbed, and it was on a curve that transitions downhill.  Some quick work on the roadbed and there were no more mishaps.










The K4 ran well, strong, and smooth.   The power load required was similiar to my LGB Mikado.  

I can't wait to put some sound and smoke in her.

JimC.

*to be continued...*


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## a63vette (Jan 20, 2008)

Gorgeous Jim! What smoke unit are you adding? And if you can share the website with K4 info that would be great. What a beautiful locomotive - especailly for the money. Good luck with her.
Jordan


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim,
That head on shot is really striking.  Almost makes me want one!!  You could always take some more pics!  Maybe a video?
Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The website is mine. it is in a "nested" order using the menu on the left.... TRAINS.... MOTIVE POWER....ACCUCRAFT/AML......K4. 

Still a bit rough, since I just converted mine to DCC last weekend... need to polish up and put some more pix on it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Congrats Jim, you are just like a little kid again! Looks very nice. I hope to feel the same, should be getting something pretty neat the end of next week, will keep you guys posted then. I think it's VERY special! Yes, it is a train!  
Jerry


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jordon,
The possibilities for a smoke unit are MTH, Aristo SD45, USA , and TAS.  I already have the Aristo and USA units.  I like what I have been reading about the TAS, but its a little expensive, considering how much I've already spent.  I'll let you know what happens.  I may try out the USA unit first.

Jerry, and Greg,
Thanks for the replies.  I am like a kid with a new toy!  

Mark,
I had planned on waiting until more pics could be taken outdoors.  Right now, the weather is not cooperating.  Do you want "table-top" pictures of detail?   No video will be made until smoke and sound are installed, unless you are just wanting video of the driver side-rod action taken from test rollers.

JimC.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2008)

Jim,
Sorry i have not replied to your email yet, i was just able to get online tonight. my internet has been down for the week, we got pounded here in NY with really bad wheather this week lost everything for a while but all is well now, anyway i will post a few photo's of what ive found with the k-4 this weekend, now that i can post pictures here. glad to see you got your loco, it's sweet loking isn't it. i'l tell you a quick story, i bought my two k-4's to repaint them for the NYC but when they arrived i just couldn't bring my self to strip them and repaint them cause they looked so nice. i cant stand the penn RR but i can't bring my self to repaint them so i did the next best thing, ive been saving all winter for a set of new chrome wheels for my harley, so i was thinking the bike is only 6 months old so the wheels that are on it are like new right...... so i took some of the cash today and ordered 2 more k-4 to repaint for the NYC.. I REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN WITH ALL THIS TRAIN STUFF IT;S PUTTING ME IN THE POOR HOUSE....ha ha ha/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif    some one here had posted that trains are like a drug adiction once  your hooked it's tuff to stop buying GEEEZ  i think i need to go to rehab or something/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif
Nick


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick, if you are going to change your locos, like DCS or DCC or whatever, see my site on the K4, I pulled mine apart and it now has a QSI board in it. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, Did you have to pull the boiler to isolate the motor leads??
Mine was wired direct from the track pickups to the motor and Aubins will argue that they're DCC ready.

Here's one that I sold smokin' under DCS..


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't need to see this.  LOL  

Great looking engine!  Enjoy!!

Raymond


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2008)

Sweet, got to have it whitch MTH unit did you use CHUCK,,, /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, I guess you did not go to my web site yet: *click here for the K4 section* notice that most sections have further sub-sections below on the menu on the right.

This has a detailed, step by step disassembly procedure.

You could avoid removing the boiler by removing the brushes from the first and third drivers, but you would still have the smoke unit, lights motor and 6v regulator connected inside.

Read my QSI install page and you will see how I broke all the different circuits apart and used all of the 12 pin connector.

This way, I could do any install in the tender without removing the boiler again. Also, I did not want to be dependent on the 6v regulator in the loco, since if I ever changed from LEDs to light bulbs, I'd still be limited to 6v.

Right now, I'm waiting on a TAS smoke unit, since I will hook up the "puff n chuff" input to the chuff cam in the loco.

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick,

Instead of going through the process of stripping and relettering K4's, why not get another NYC Hudson (USA) and put the MTH stuff in that!  Seems like it'd fit better fit and you could have triple headed Hudsons instead of doubleheaded K4's in NYC paint.  Would NYC Paint even stick to a PRR loco, especially a K4?!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

Mark,
 i came this close to doing that but with the new price of the hudsons and the new shipping rates from ups to ship it to Ray and back and to have DCS installed would be almost 2700.00 total cause of the weight. i was able to get 2 more k-4's for 650.00 each with shipping included so i thought it was a great deal. besides that i was looking thrue some NYC books and wouldn't you know it, the NYC accually had 3 k-4's so  i think i'll be ok  putting NYC on there, but trying to get that pennsy paint off will be a chore but i think we may do a paint over and a grungy/ super rusty paint job. to tell you the truth once these are done i think thats it in the engine department for me? i have far more stuff than i could ever run but who knows what will be comin down the pike next.
Nick


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Are RED bows common to the delivery of ALL Accucraft engines? I ordered a C19 about 6 weeks ago and the anticipation is overwhelming!


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Gary,

My K28 tender came wrapped in a red ribbon.  When I was in Viet Nam, I learned that folks in southeast Asia always make a point of wrapping any gift or offering in red.  I don't know the exact cultural reason; but, it seemed quite important.  I suspect that the red ribbon around the tender relates to that tradition.  If the C19 is anywhere nearly as nice as the K28, your wait will have been worthwhile!

Llyn


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Llyn

Yes the anticipation is something. During my combat tour in Vietnam in 1966-67, we received many "presents" from the locals, but they weren't wrapped in "red bows". Ha! Ha! But that's a story for another time. Welcome home brother! I have been told by Jonathan that I could probably see my engine sometime in March


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Another comment on the K4, JC, maybe you did not notice, but the wheels on the tender are dual ball bearing wheels, as far as I can tell. They rotate independently of the axle. 

I finished the lighting wiring today, since they are LEDs you have to be careful of the polarity. The color coding of the wiring is also backwards, the backup light has a red and black wire, the red is ground and the black is positive. The markers are green and black, and again, green is ground, and black is positive. Anyway, if you rewire your loco, 3 ma for each led, and 6 ma for the markers and classification lights (since it's two LEDs in parallel). 

It's breaking in on my layout, after oiling everything. 

Regards, Greg


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I had read somewhere the red ribbons signify joy/luck.  And let me tell you, when I was opening up my Accucraft Big Boy, I was feeling a WHOLE BUNCH OF JOY!!  Especially since I was waiting over two years for it.  Maybe some year I can even find a track power layout with large enough curves to actually run it sometime.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick,


That's interesting about K4's on the NYC!  I was looking at steamlocomotive.com and there is a roster of their pacifics listed.  They had their own K3's and K5s but no K-4 was listed. I thought "well that makes sense, seeing as how the PRR was their main competetion and their flagship locomotive was called a K4." Were  the NYC's K-4s letter for the Central or were they left as PRR?  (In a way, it sort of seems like Chevy putting a Mustang engine in their Corvette.  Know what I mean?  Not disputing your book, just commenting that its interesting. )


Maybe you could scan the picture and post or emai it.  I'd be interested to see it.


Mark


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg E. alerted me to a problem in the K-4 pilot truck which can contribute to derails.  He has this fix documented at his website found at
www.elmassian.com/index.php  under the "Misc. info/tips"  link.  

The shoulder bolt that holds the pilot truck has a sharp lower edge on the head, which can gouge into the sliding surface, causing a bind and subsequent derail.  The fix, is to 
1. remove the truck, 
2. use the bolt head to remove all paint from the sliding area, 
3. remove the sharp edge by sanding/filing the backside of the bolt head while chucked in a drill, 
4. Lube area with moly or graphite grease,
5. reassemble with washer and spring.

Greg also suggests placing three #4 washers around the threaded portion of the shoulder bolt to increase possible downward travel.  

While performing the above, I discovered another issue with the shoulder bolt that required correction.
The edges of the slider slot had burrs on them, causing the bolt to bind in the middle and at the extremes of movement.  I filed down the slot as shown in the pictures. 










Now the pilot moves much smoother throughout its travel, without binding.

Re-assembled Pilot truck.









This last pic is for those interested in seeing the underside of the K-4.  The track pickup wires are easily seen.











Jim C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

More to come, one more mod, washers between the wheel and the bushings to keep the bushings in place... will have to get some close up shot of the "equalizing" mechanism, but excessive side to side play in the axles makes the mechanism do funny stuff... 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

Greg, Jim.
nice write up on the k-4's you guys found some eatra stuff that i didn't know on this loco and i will incorparate your suggestions into my k-4's, nice write up guys, heres a tip on the pilot truck take some nylon washers and cut a small pie shape out of them and insert on all 4 axles between the wheels and the pilot, it will not only keep the bushings in place but because some of the axles are longer than others without the washers the wheels tend to hit the brake pads and short out/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif
learned how to cut the washers from Ray M. he used some of them on my mikado.
Nick.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I ordered the following tools for working on the K4.
www.arcade-electronics.com/detail.aspx     micro metric Nut Driver set

www.arcade-electronics.com/detail.aspx     Micro metric hex driver set

qtena.com/22mm-star-driver-eyeglass-wrench-rimless-eyeglasses-fits-22mm-nuts-p-4900.html   2.2mm micro metric nut driver [for painted bolts]

JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nick, take that screw out, and clean away all the gunk! Then do the mod to deburr the sharp underside edge... you can tell it was sharp, it cut away all the paint! Grease the heck out of it with moly grease, it will work more smoothly. 

Regards, Greg


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, I finally finished drooling. It's a beautiful loco. 

Mark


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I tknow a few of you will faint when you read this but I ordered a Postwar version last night. I was half asleep when I placed the order. Well this morning I got a call from Matt at St. Aubin's asking me if I really wanted 4 of them. I had mistaken placed 4 1 unit orders last nite when I got a bit confused oredering the unit. This was my fault. I should have gone to sleep and ordered it in the morning. Great, Great customer service from St. Aubin's. 
LAO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Larry, you were just too excited! 

Well, are you going to run battery or track power, or DCC or R/C? 

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Note: I just updated my K4 mods page: *CLICK HERE* on my web site.

I added the washers, and worked on the equalizing mechanism. It really works well now, and derailments from less that perfect vertical grades seems to have been eliminated.

Regards, Greg


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

Sheesh! That sounds like soemthing I would have done! I spend a lot of time on the phone correcting orders I have placed with different vendors. There's something about filling out forms that sends me over the edge.

Mark


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Congratulations on your new K-4 order, Larry.  The K-4 ran continuously on track power for about 3.5 hours.  We had a great day ourdoors with the grandkids playing in the yard while the train was running.

Out of curriosity, I checked the weight of the loco and tender. 
Loco:   18.6lbs.
Tender:  5.4lbs.
Total:    24.0lbs.

Several pictures were taken, but sadly weren't good enough to post.

JimC.


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## charlietusa (Mar 2, 2008)

To All.
Can you tell me where to find the best price for the Pre-war K4?   I have the Post-war.  Thought I read on here somewhere that someone purchased them in the $600's?
Thanks,
Charlie


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I finally took my K4 out of it's shipping container. Wow! I am just shocked had how nice it is. I need to figure out how to get it safely to the ECLSTS. If I sell a few items in the next few weeks I should be able to get a Pennsy E8 and maybe a GG-1. It will give me Pennsy power from 4 different manufacturers. 
LAO


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Congratulations, Larry.

I continue to be surprised at how well the K-4 runs on less than clean track conditions.  Today being Easter, I tried to run the Eggliner Express. 








Without cleaning the track, the Eggliner jerked, stalled and required a transformer setting of 85.  

Later, I brought out the K-4 to show to visiting relatives.  Without cleaning the track, still,  the K-4 ran flawlessly at a setting of only 70.

I am pleased.

Maybe next week I will start issolating the track pickups, smoke, and chuff wiring.

JimC.


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## Wendell Hanks (Jan 2, 2008)

Question: 
For those who own the K-4 (lucky!), what is the minimum radius that any of you have used? 
I have 8' diameter (4' radius) curves. Am I stuck? 
Thanks, 
Wendell


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2008)

Wendell,
 you are good to go, this loco has no flange on center driver so i think it would do as tight as 5ft dia./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif
Nick....


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Wendell,
I have run mine on 8ft curves and R3 switches without problems [after doing some ballast repair and the pilot truck modifications].
JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Work has started on converting the K-4 to RC/DC/DCC operation. 

First step was to remove the boiler. I used the guidelines in GregE's website to ease removal. 









Following suggestions in GregE's site for re-wiring the loco so that all twelve wires: 
2-track pickup, 2-motor power, 2-chuff, 2-classification lights, 2-headlight, 2-smoke, wires were connected/left-connected to the plug between the loco and tender. I created the below diagram to help me track wires all the way back to the pcb in the tender.I discovered that sometimes, wires reversed colors on the loco/tender sides of the plugs as well as Accucraft often used the black wire of a pair for the positive, instead of the usual negative. 









Much to my disgust, I also later discovered that there was a faulty trace on the loco/tender plug PCB. Note the location and fix for the problem shown in the picture. 








I spent well more than an hour trying to track where the open connection was for the smoke circuit. After checking all wires in the loco and tender with an Ohm meter, the plug was the last place I checked. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif 

More pictures of conversion to come in the near future. 

JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Smoke unit installed. 
An Aristo SD45 smoke unit was installed into the smoke box of the K-4. The connecting tube between the stack and the smoke unit is a piece of flexable 3/8in ID auto transmission fluid hose. It should handle both the heat and oil. The tube was sealed on both ends with blue high heat silicone. A scrap piece of plastic was cut to 3/4in x 2-5/8 and wedged to support the smoke unit. The plastic strip was hot glued to the boiler as an extra precaution. 
Back: 








front: 








The unit was tested with the running gear on rollers. It puts out a nice smoke plume, which can be run along with the lights and standing sounds without movement. The smoke starts before the loco starts moving. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0> 
JimC.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work Jim! Jerry


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Additional disassembly/reassembly pictures for the K-4. 
A small set of pliers is almost essential to replace the tiny slot screws and bolts for reassembly. Some of the hex head bolts are so short that they go too far up into the hex driver to start the threads. 








Pictures of some of the parts that need to be removed prior to taking the boiler off. Reassembly involves reverse order. 








More pictures to come. 
BTW, I had a long conversation with Cliff, from Tech Support at Accucraft, about some of the items mentioned earlier in this thread. He was very supportive and is a great representative for the company. 
JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I found that the hex head bolts fit snug enough in my driver that I could use it to start them also. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to admit this kind of kills my desire to ever get one of those. It's a beautiful locomotive, but it's a lot of money to have that many things that need fixing, and it looks like a real bear to install remote control. Maybe if I had enough money to buy one AND pay someone else to install RC...


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote: 
I am afraid you have misunderstood..... 
1] There were only two items that were problems: the pcb [which would not have shown up in stock form] and the pilot truck. 
2] I disassembled the loco to rewire for use with a QSI/Gwire DCC decoder that offered individual lighting, smoke, horn, bell, and running controls, with battery power, track power, or DCC track powered. The loco ran great [except for the pilot problem] right out of the box, using DC. If I were content to use an Aristo TE in the tender without the additional controls, the boiler would not have needed to be removed. When I converted an LGB Mikado to battery power, using an Aristo TE, it was no less work to remove the boiler than on the K-4. 
JimC.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, 
I trust that you will be bringing it over to the steam-up/open house tomorrow (if for no other reason than to let me see it)!


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 
Unless Susie keeps me so busy with "Honeydos" tonight that I can't finish getting the tender buttoned up, I will be bringing it. I still need to adjust some CV values on the QSI. I did an antenna test run outside today. Here are a couple of pictures of how the smoke unit is performing. 



















It is nice to be able to ring the bell, blow the horn, or blow-off steam with the controller buttons. 

JimC.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work Jim and thanks for sharing you work with us. Good job on mounting the smoke unit. 

Raymond


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I just posted a test run video of the K-4 on Youtube. The low speed performance and startup are still being tweeked in the QSI/Gwire DCC system. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX2xdJGZvG0 

JimC.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, Great pictures and videos. Thanks for sharing. In the video are you running battery or track DCC? The QSI system sounds great!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2008)

Jim, 
those AML K-4s sure are nice running arnt they? your looks great, will be even better when you get the dcc dialed in to make it start smoother. if i may make one suggestion?with the sound i dont know whos speaker your using but it sounds tinny like because of the brass shell, i had this problem too and Ray M suggested i use tubing around speaker so i had a old roll of duct tape and i used the tube that it was on and hot glued ir over the speaker and wow what a differance.. lots of bass now and no tinny sound try iy it is very easy to do heres some photos to look at. when i get a chance i will video my and you can listen to them they sound great now.. 
Nick...


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

*Real happy for you Jim... Very nice eng.. and tk's for the post and details. First time I've seen one. *


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick, 
Thanks for the speaker suggestion. 

A picture of the K-4 at David McLain's open house on April 19th. 








Backhead detail: 








PowerPlug closeup with view of two back screws that hold the boiler in place. 








Underside of cab showing coupler and screws holding power plug in place. Mine came out and had to be replaced. 
[img[http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/pimanjc/K4%20Folder/K4-loco-undersideCab-23r.jpg[/img] 
Picture of sheet used to organize teardown. Small parts are stuck to double sticky tape and labeled: 









Hopefully, tomorrow pictures of the tender installation will be posted. 

JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

QSI install in tender of K-4. 










JimC.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sigh.... dang what a nice engine.... 


Raymond


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I just put a 4" diameter speaker in my tender yesterday. Had to grind off a bit of the frame, but wow... I'll post a picture this weekend, it's a HUGE speaker, but it just fit. (well, there was a 15 minute span of cursing) I think I will have to cut a large hole in the tender bottom, those few drilled holes are just not doing it, blocking too much sound. 

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

As seen in the picture above, I installed a QSI/Gwire/Magnum in the K-4. After several frustrating test runs and multiple calls to Dave G., Bob G., and Greg E.,I did an AMP test on the K4 [at Dave's suggestion]. 
With the loco tied to a section of track, the K4 was connected to an Aristo TE w/ 24v gel cell batteries. Power was ramped up until wheel slip began. It required 4A to start wheel slip. Immediately, the amps would drop to 2A while slipping. Unfortunately, the QSI is only rated for 2.5A. This would explain why the loco was unable to start while on a grade with a load. 
I will next try out an RCS unit and Phoenix 2k2 installed sequentially. Dave Goodson has been very helpful in all aspects of the prospective new install. My biggest concern is range with the brass tender and loco. 
JimC.


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

Jim, very odd the yours pulls that much in amps, i did a full slip test on 3 of mine today to confirm this and the worst of the 3 was about an amp and three quarters, maybe something is wrong with the motor? i read here sometime back that someone had a problem with the electric motor and had cliff at accucraft send a new one and all was well after that. i would give cliff a call and ask him before you rip out the qsi..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif 
Nick...


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I installed the RCS 9amp unit in the tender of the K-4. 

It's circling the layout now. 

I Coiled the antenna in a circle under the coal load. Reception is a little shorter than with the antenna lying on top of the tender. Next trial is to connect the antenna to one side of the tender truck, using the rails for the antenna. 

With this setup, it will dead start the 12 cars from standing on the 5% grade, 12ft curve. It would not do that before. Acceleration is very smooth and low speed control is excellent. Top speed with the 18.5V li-on battery used was adequate. Although these locos were designed to run fast, on my layout with its grades and curves, a scale 40-50mph should be about max. 

The next stage will be to install the 2k2 Phoenix sound card and a relocated speaker [on order from Jon Bleise]. I will post pictures of the new install when completed. 

My conclusion on the QSI is that its rating of 2.5A was just insufficient for the K4 under load. 

JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Question for NickS or others: 

When you put the duct tape roll around the speaker as shown in the picture, did you enclose the top as well? 
Thanks, 
JimC.


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

Jim, 
on one of them i did i enclosed completly the top with duct tape and got a lot of bass but a little distorted /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gifso i played with the tape till i got a even sound with a desent amount of bass, so i would say play with the amount of tape your putting over the top till it sounds good to you./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif on the other hand the one that i just put the tube around and left the top open was a vast inprovement over having no tube at all.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif 
Nick..


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

Also im going to try what Greg is going to do and cut the opening in the speaker grill to let more sound out as the holes are really tiny. Ray did this on my pacific and mikado and the sound is fantastic/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did this to a lionel atlantic with a 3" long throw speaker, and it made a world of difference: 

http://www.elmassian.com/images/stories/motivepower/lionel/atlantic/atlantic_speaker.JPG 

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The 3.5in. speaker that was mounted in the original location was removed and a 2in. JonBliese speaker was installed as shown below. 
A speaker attachment plate was made of plastic for the front of the tender. This will allow the sound to seem to come from the loco a little beter. The change to front mount will also free up needed space at the rear of the tender for batteries and RC/sound equipment. 
















Installed speaker. The screws still need to be painted. 








Speaker shown with foam cup enclosure and battery pack in place. 








Tests demonstrated that the best sound quality was without using the cup, with the tender buttoned up. The sound from this two inch speaker is almost as good as the 3.5in. first installation shown in previous pictures. 
BTW, I would like to publicly thank Jon for the great customer service he gave me. 
JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Good guy and nice speakers, have 4 running in a Mallet! 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (May 21, 2008)

4 running in one locomotive? what the ****..... you trying to make it sound real or what/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif or are they just for weight...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif he he he 
Nick....


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By nick s. on 05/21/2008 2:28 PM
4 running in one locomotive? what the ****..... you trying to make it sound real or what/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif" border=0> or are they just for weight...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif" border=0> he he he 
Nick....




Naw! All those speakers are for Magnet traction! Like the old AFX slot cars and Lionel's used too! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

Chas


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## Guest (May 22, 2008)

/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif 
Nick...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, more bass in a small space... Leonard Kerns makes them up, he has a site: 

https://home.comcast.net/~leonardk12/rrbog/1%20to%201%20Scale%20Sound.html 

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

After first trying a QSI/Gwire unit in the K-4, 








eventually, after some other trials, installed an Aristo TE w/ Phoenix 2k2 sound board, and 4200mah/19.2v NIMH batteries in the tender. Although the reception is less than I am used to getting with a TE trail car [50ft vs 80ft], it is a distance I can work with. Compared to other systems tried, I lost independant whistle/bell control, but the Phoenix does a good job as set up for automatic operation. 
To remove the shell from the tender, 10 screws had to be removed. I also replaced the oversized [guage-1?] Accucraft coupler with an Aristo coupler. the pivoting design of the ACC coupler would consistantly disconnect with the Aristo couplers on my Streamliners. 








The Phoenix 2k2 was installed. Remember that I rewired the loco/tender previously to accomodate the QSI [DCC] board with its added capabilities. Note the wiring block so I didn't have to get so many connections in the tiny terminals of the 2k2. The switch at the top is the Phoenix volume switch. 








Next the TE was connected. Note the nylon screws to hold it above the Phoenix. The TE is wider than the lip on the base of the tender shell, so it is placed into the tender shell, followed by the installation of the shell onto the chassis. The switch on the right is a DPDT battery/track power selection switch. 








TE with shell in place. 








The coal load was lifted from its tray and the antenna was coiled under the load. 








Finally, the batteries were installed. The pack connects with tamika [sp] plug and is removable for charging. 








More pictures to follow. 
JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Today, I built an operational display stand for the K4. It will be used for part of the WAGRS display ath HAGRS. 
JimC.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Video: Accucraft K-4 BenchTest 1.38.1, 
The display stand was used at HAGRS2008, to give an operational, but static exhibit. The video attached is operations of the Accucraft K-4 with Phoenix 2k2 sound, installed Aristo SD-45 smoke unit, and Aristo trackside TE - installed in the tender, as illustrated in previous posts in this thread. 

In case the embedding doesn't work, or stalls during streaming from here,the YOUTUBE URL is: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWtLKHguvM8 
The video also can be accessed under videos by "pimanjc" on YOUTUBE. 
JimC.


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*Question about "STOCK" K-4 LIGHT OPERATION:*

*A club member came to the open house with a AML K-4 to try out 
....(no track down yet).*

*Short version - MAGIC SMOKE from the REAR of the loco......*
*Turn out that one of the side pipes had been bent and was firm 
against a driver wheel.**....TOASTED 6 Volt Regulator.....*

*Once corrected, I noticed that the BOTH Markers and REAR Headlamp *
* TENDER LED's were only lit going in REVERSE....all DARK going FORWARD....*

*Loco Headlamp/Class LED's lit going FORWARD...all DARK going REVERSE...*
*Does your STOCK K-4 have these same operations?*

*Looking at the PC board in the tender.
...YEP....only 1 diode and a 6 volt regulator....*

*Ray*


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Real K4


----------



## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's mine









*Is it real or just MTH DCS







*


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellent, Chuck,
From your title, I assume you are running MTS. What smoke unit is that?

BTW, have you ever set off your smoke alarm?

JimC.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

MTS?? Good one..









It's MTH DCS and the smoke unit is MTH of course..









Smoke alarm, what's that?? I get alarmed when my steamers stop smoking!!


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That's about the best smoke volume and velocity I've seen to date. Nice job! K4s are beautiful engines. 


Raymond


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

_Chuck.... sweet nice job...........







_


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*This was a double header - 1st K-4 and 1st PHOENIX PB9 sound card install. 
*
*.................AND IT WAS A PLEASURE....NO HOLES TO DRILL......








*
*On the left side is a bracket with a power switch and two access holes already present.*











*Now on the right (sorry about that) are the vol switch and access port jack installed.*
*The 2K2 is on the LEFT and the PB9 is on the right. Accucraft had installed two brackets*
*to support the 2K2 sound card. The BP9 is much smaller and fits BETWEEN the brackets.*
*On the left are the 7x7 speaker grill and 4 mounting holes.*












The PHOENIX SP-3.5 is a drop in/bolt down/plug in - go to the next step.[/b]












Access to the power/vol/PC bracket is via the water hatch door - NOW YOU DONT SEE IT.[/b]













...NOW YOU DO.....[/b]












*Easy access to trucks for mounting BELL/WHISTLE trigger reed switches.

On the not-so-nice-side:.....blue tinted LEDs at 7volts (trains already moving)*
*and Tender Marker LEDs only ON in reverse.*


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

The speaker that came with my Phoenix was round with no mounting tabs. The phoenix guys just told me to glue it down. I see that yours came with mounting tabs. So much for the so called Excellent Phoenix Support I got. I ended up having to purchase another speaker and to mount it with tabs drill out the mounting holes.
LAO


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I put a 4 inch speaker in mine, had to sand off the tabs, and it just barely gets in there, but the difference in bass between the 3" and 4" was wild! 

I will have to see what I can fit in my new 0-6-0 tender... woof indeed! 

Greg


----------



## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*Larry*
*>The speaker that came with my Phoenix was round with no mounting tabs. 
>The phoenix guys just told me to glue it down. *
*>I see that yours came with mounting tabs. 
>So much for the so called Excellent Phoenix Support I got. *
*>I ended up having to purchase another speaker and to mount it with 
>tabs drill out the mounting holes.*
*I had Phoenix 2K2 kit waiting to be installed. It had the SP-3.5, so I 'borrowed' it to try out....*
*Likewise the power connector that Phoenix supplied with the Accucraft K-4 was the same as the Aristocraft Pacific.*
*That power pickup connector is not even close (other than 2 wires).*
*...SOMEONE needs to get new glasses..... 
*
*Greg*
*Even going from 3.0 to 3.5 was a GOOD improvement. 4.0 must be QUAKE-ING. Your web site was very helpfull....thanks.....
*

*Ray*


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

The best thing about placing the speaker forward facing, is that the sound seems to come from the loco rather than the tender. See Pg. 4 of this thread for installation details.
JimC.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, have bought some small speakers from Jonathan to use as tweeters and may try to place behind coal load facing the bulkhead, or even in the boiler somewhere... I did this on the mallet and it worked well.... 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

With all the sound Greg is generating I'm going to have to start using ear plugs way out here in Georgia.







Later RJD


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Great source of info on the K4.

Jerry


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Jerry,

I look forward to seeing pics and progress reports on your new K-4 in the near future. Feel free to add to this post or if you wish. That way, we could keep a lot of the K-4 stuff together.

JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll have to open the tender and show how I got the speaker in there, getting to 4" took a little work, but wow, the bass! 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pimanjc on 14 Aug 2010 02:22 PM 
Thanks Jerry,

I look forward to seeing pics and progress reports on your new K-4 in the near future. Feel free to add to this post or if you wish. That way, we could keep a lot of the K-4 stuff together.

JimC.


Hi Jim,

I learned a lot from our phone conversation. As I mentioned, so far I don't know what to expect. The seller received my check today and plans to ship it Monday. I suspect the loco will have just been on display and not run at all except perhaps to test it. I think it will have a (Phoenix?) sound system and may or may not have a smoke unit. I don't think I have ever seen an Accucraft (or any other) K4. 
It will share the six Aristo PRR Heavyweights that an Aristo Live Steam Mike and Aristo PRR E-8 currently share. 


Hopefully it will arrive sometime next week.

I am hoping to do nothing with it other than to take it out of the box and run it. If it has been run it may not need any lubrication and if it has been on display I may need to lubricate it.

This world of metal locos is new to me so I am proceeding cautiously.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lube it anyway. Check tightness of all valve gear screws. Do the mods I recommended, that will help reduce derailments, the pilot truck especially. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 14 Aug 2010 08:38 PM 
Lube it anyway. Check tightness of all valve gear screws. Do the mods I recommended, that will help reduce derailments, the pilot truck especially. 

Regards, Greg 

*K4 INSTRUCTIONS NEEDED*

The used K4 finally arrived today. It was better than I had hoped for in that it looks brand new, shows no signs of having been run and it does have a sound unit installed (Phoenix I think but I am not yet sure). I also am not sure if it has a smoke unit (it is up on the shelf for now and too high to look inside the smokestack).

Unfortunately the guy I bought it from has not (yet) been able to find the instructions and they are not available on the Accucraft website.

After talking with Jim and looking at Greg's wiring I've found the smoke and motor switches (apparently there is no light switch) so I have the loco on the track with power to charge the sound system battery.

The loco does run but there is a squeak somewhere and I do want to lubricate it before running it on the layout. 

I don't know where to look for valve gear screws. Are they to attach something or are they the little screws that hold the rods etc. together? No, I really don't know the terminology of the loco parts.

Jim has a set of instructions he will be able to email to me next week but if anyone happens to have a set of K4 instructions and a scanner handy I would appreciate it if they could email a copy to me at:

jerrys-rr at live.com

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pimanjc on 14 Aug 2010 02:22 PM 
Thanks Jerry,

I look forward to seeing pics and progress reports on your new K-4 in the near future. Feel free to add to this post or if you wish. That way, we could keep a lot of the K-4 stuff together.

JimC.


Hi Jim,

I really appreciate all the information and help you gave me on the phone today.

Here is a photo of the K4 (pretty much like the rest of the K4's)










and this is the piece that came in a bag that I am trying to identify:










I figured out that the sound system is a Phoenix 2K2.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Johnn (Jan 5, 2010)

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..................


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

That piece goes under the cab as it's a water pipe coming from the tender. My K4's have 2 on each engine mounted on the frame so you should be able to see the other one that is mounted across from where that one mounts. I'll post a pic if t'd help.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They come loose often, and the end that should have a hole in it has been fractured at the hole, the end is gone.. need to make a small brass bracket just like it. 

They are there for looks. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 04 Sep 2010 07:10 PM 
That piece goes under the cab as it's a water pipe coming from the tender. My K4's have 2 on each engine mounted on the frame so you should be able to see the other one that is mounted across from where that one mounts. I'll post a pic if t'd help. 

Hi Chuck,

I had started thinking that was what it was when I saw the part on the right side but I have not had the loco down to look at the left side. I'll do that when I take it down to oil it and run it.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04 Sep 2010 08:20 PM 
They come loose often, and the end that should have a hole in it has been fractured at the hole, the end is gone.. need to make a small brass bracket just like it. 

They are there for looks. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

I would not know how to make a brass bracket and paint it but when I first saw it I thought I was looking at a black cable tie. I may try making a replacement with a cable tie and see how it looks and works.

This is the sort of thing that has kept me away from metal locos all these years - what the heck to do if and when something breaks or falls off.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

it's a flat strip of brass, with a hole in one end to secure it. The other end is just bent in a loop. should take you all of 5 minutes to make. 

When you look on the loco, you will probably see the bolt that held it before it broke. You won't be able to use a cable tie, it needs a thin strip of metal. 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I solved the problem with the broken strap - it worked out that I was able to uncoil enough of it from the other end to drill a new hole in it and reattach the piping to the loco.

Unfortunately fixing one problem led to the discovery of another.

I had to turn the K4 around to get to the other side where the broken piece belonged but when I lifted it up, turned it around and tried to put the K4 back on the rails the leading truck dropped down and tilted to the point that I could not get it onto the rails. Now the K4 just sits cockeyed on the rails part on and part off. I had decided I was going to put a LGB smoke unit in it and now it looks like that is going to be sooner rather than later.

Eventually I found that a long screw that apparently attaches the smoke-box to the frame had dropped down keeping the truck from going back where it belonged. Now I have to figure out how to get it back together but more important to determine if there is some reason why it just fell out like it did. A smoke box screw just falling out is rather suspicious. For a loco that I plan to be running 6 feet above the ground I really need everything to be perfectly track ready.

I got such a bargain on this loco that I can't complain regardless of whatever I might discover but now I am getting a bit gun shy about what else I might find. I really do trust the seller and I do believe that anything I run into was present when he bought the K4 brand new. 
Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, did you read all of my site on the K4? 

Disassembly instructions there. You should be able to put that screw right back up there, but while you have the front truck off, you might want to do the mods I recommend. 

Greg


----------



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Sep 2010 03:32 PM 
Jerry, did you read all of my site on the K4? 

Disassembly instructions there. You should be able to put that screw right back up there, but while you have the front truck off, you might want to do the mods I recommend. 

Greg 

Hi Greg,

I had looked at and bookmarked your page on the K4 and I intended to read it in more detail. I tend to be more of a fireman putting fires (problems) out than doing a lot of preventative maintenance. At this stage I have no idea how much I will use the K4 and until I establish that I'll only be doing the minimum of work needed. 

I've been careful to only have straight track and wide curves on the main outside layout except for on the deck and the yard sidings where a derailing loco is not likely to damage itself or anything else.

Most of my trains get very little running time so I tend to be less concerned about things that might be an issue for those who run their individual trains a lot. Also, right or wrong, I tend to try to keep things as unmodified as possible (factory original) just as I hope that trains I buy will be unmodified. No offense intended but I don't know enough about who did what and how well it was done to risk buying trains that were modified before I bought them.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm not sure what I am getting into. Not only is the boiler loose from the frame but the smokebox is loose from the boiler.




















Everything looked and felt right when I put it on the tracks. I'm surprised it did not start to come apart when I first picked it up. 
Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By N1CW on 19 Jun 2009 09:22 PM 


*This was a double header - 1st K-4 and 1st PHOENIX PB9 sound card install. 
*
*.................AND IT WAS A PLEASURE....NO HOLES TO DRILL......








*
*On the left side is a bracket with a power switch and two access holes already present.*




*Now on the right (sorry about that) are the vol switch and access port jack installed.*
*The 2K2 is on the LEFT and the PB9 is on the right. Accucraft had installed two brackets*
*to support the 2K2 sound card. The BP9 is much smaller and fits BETWEEN the brackets.*
*On the left are the 7x7 speaker grill and 4 mounting holes.*












The PHOENIX SP-3.5 is a drop in/bolt down/plug in - go to the next step.[/b]





Access to the power/vol/PC bracket is via the water hatch door - NOW YOU DONT SEE IT.[/b]













...NOW YOU DO.....[/b]
















Thanks for the photos. I did not receive any instructions with my K4 and I had no idea these switches and PC interface were there. When I saw your photos I looked and discovered my K4 has the same arrangement.

When I first saw the marking H:0527 on the sound unit I was not sure what type of sound system it was. Now I realize it is a Phoenix 2K2 but does anyone know what the H:0527 stands for and why it does not say Phoenix?

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

*How many variations of Accucraft K4's are/were there?*

So far it sounds like there were PRR and NYC; Black and Green; with and without Phoenix sound; pre-war and post war. Is this correct and were there other variations?

It seems strange that the Accucraft web site has no references at all of the electric K4. 
Are there any parts drawings?


Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
Check out the American Mainline site: http://www.americanmainline.com/loco.htm

JimC.

_Sorry........Disreguard the previous comment. There is nothing on their site but info on the live steam K-4._[/b]

Jim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry, last time I mention it... you will most likely need to do the mods to the front pilot to run it at all, unless you have perfectly level track and perfect trackwork. This is not preventative maintenance... I had to do this to even get it to stay on the tracks. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Sep 2010 09:40 PM 
Jerry, last time I mention it... you will most likely need to do the mods to the front pilot to run it at all, unless you have perfectly level track and perfect trackwork. This is not preventative maintenance... I had to do this to even get it to stay on the tracks. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

I understand what you are saying. It is quite likely that I eventually will do the pilot modification but right now that is not a priority of mine at this time. My priority is finding out what is disconnected in the front end of the K4. In my case the track work is pretty much perfect in that it is absolutely flat - mounted on perfectly level plywood or composite decking covered with green outdoor carpeting - both inside and outside. There is less than 1 inch variance in the height of the entire layout except for the 10% ramps which the K4 will not be run on because they lead to the damp crawl space where I could not keep the K4.

To see things from my perspective (the only perspective I concern myself with):










This (my hand) is not made to work well with tiny parts. I alone know what I am competent to do and incompetent at attempting.

I am very apprehensive about working on the K4 or any metal loco with all their tiny, easily damaged parts. I have no idea how I would fix anything I might break and the idea of turning the K4 upside down, laying it on its side or otherwise doing anything where I might cause the slightest damage to it is a major deterrent to me to attempt anything. I don't even work on my plastic LGB Moguls and Mikados if I can possibly avoid it.

Please (addressed not to Greg specifically but to everyone in general) DO NOT tell me that there is nothing that I should be concerned about - I am concerned about it and I am not interested in hearing from anyone who might think I am concerned about nothing. I mean absolutely no offense or disrespect to anyone but I only concern myself with things that concern me and I am uninterested in other's opinions regarding what I should or should not concern myself about.

For now my only concern is how to figure out what has come loose and to get the darn K4 put back together the way it is supposed to be. Then I will probably put a LGB smoke unit into it since I understand I can probably do that with the loco sitting erect.

I am not a multi-tasker. While I could possibly do the pilot mod while fixing the boiler attachment I will probably not attempt it but rather fix the boiler and then, after doing what I had no choice but to do, I might rethink the steps I took with the boiler and consider the pilot modification. 

If I had someone standing here to talk me through it and to take over if I got confused I might be more adventurous but I don't work well from following directions - there are too many things that may not be as clear as I might need (such as a parts diagram showing where every little piece goes). The last thing I would want would be to start following some instructions only to get lost in getting to the next step. I have a few locos in various disassembly points where I could not decide what I wanted to do next with them. I learn best by watching someone do something rather than by reading about how they did it. 
The simple fact is that not only do I not work well with small parts but I absolutely HATE working on trains. I only work on them when I have to in order to get them to do what I want. I am too cheap to pay someone else to do it so I limit myself to what I can and have to do.


Regards,

Jerry


----------



## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry/et-al[/b]

>..snip..Not only is the boiler loose from the frame but the smokebox is 
>loose from the boiler..snip[/b]
The K-4 in my sound posting photos, the prior owner had lifted the 
loco using the front shelf. This caused the smoke box door ring to[/b] seperate and bent the top of the boiler where one screw holds it to the boiler.[/b]


After I installed the PB9 system, he took the loco to a Jeweler friend
who has small hands and the small tools...







[/b]

*>..snip..Now I realize it is a Phoenix 2K2 but does anyone know *
*>what the H:0527 stands for and why it does not say Phoenix?*
*The Sticker is on the Flashmemory Chip and is the info about the code
sound loaded into that board when shipped. 
Using a Magic Decoder Ring would be helpful BUT if you MUST KNOW
it was an Aristo RDC sound file that was written over long ago.
Now for the "REST OF THE STORY", there is a Sticker on the Processor Chip 
(other side of the board) has the Phoenix TM and serial number.
*


----------



## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Ray,

I've been lifting the K4 (and Hudson) by the cab roof and the smoke box. If this is wrong how is one supposed to pick up the K4 (I have no instructions)?

Thanks,

Jerry


----------



## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*Jerry/et-al*

*>I've been lifting the K4 (and Hudson) by the cab roof and the smoke box. *
*>If this is wrong how is one supposed to pick up the K4 (I have no instructions)?
Sorry I returned the instruction book to the loco owner - I do not have a copy. 
Toooo many "Gray Cells" have died for me to remember if it had how to lift. 
It was clear to me at the first attempt that something was not right....tooo much flex...?







*


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

All engines (all cars) are designed to be supported by the wheels. So... Pick it up by the wheels. This is not terribly easy, but not all that hard either. Use both hands, one on each side and slide the fingers below and between the drivers. Be careful to not bend the side rods on a steamer or brake hangers, and don't press the wheels toward the center such as to cause them to go out of gauge or to wobble on the axle. Leading and trailing trucks should be attached such that they might droop a bit, but should not fall off. 

If the engine has a tender, you will probably need to detach it... Don't let it hang by the drawbar while you carry the engine. 

If you cannot detach the tender (too difficult to get to or both units need to be rolled on their side to get to a disconnect bolt, etc.) then fashion a section of track onto a board (or cut grooves in the board to guide the flanges) that the engine/tender can be rolled onto and then carry it on the board (be sure to have stops on each end to keep it from rolling off! Side panels are also a good idea to keep if from toppling off sideways).


----------



## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 05 Sep 2010 07:38 PM 
*How many variations of Accucraft K4's are/were there?*

So far it sounds like there were PRR and NYC; Black and Green; with and without Phoenix sound; pre-war and post war. Is this correct and were there other variations?

It seems strange that the Accucraft web site has no references at all of the electric K4. 
Are there any parts drawings?


Thanks,

Jerry

*Jerry*
*I do not know the details but it goes something like: 
Another company did the imports but marketing fell short.*
*Accucraft picked up the marketing ball and stock.....so I hear....*

*KHANDO link*

*RFD-TV just ran a PRR K-4 1361 on the Trains & Loco show. *
*If you have that channel, there will be a rebroadcast EARLY Tuesday AM.*


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

UUUUMMM NYC Hudsons rule forever ............


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When the errant screw is installed correctly, the front of the boiler is quite secure. I lift the loco by the smokebox and by the cab roof. 

I did check that the cab is securely fastened, but it has 4 screws, so the likelihood of all four coming loose at the same time is nil. 

Glad the 45 degree "braces" held, otherwise the front would definitely have come loose. 

Anyway, Jerry and I chatted on the phone today. This is a new facet of locomotive, with tons of tiny bolts and screws. 

Luckily, Jerry found the loose nut re-secured the boiler and is now good to go. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By N1CW on 06 Sep 2010 06:19 PM 


*Jerry*
*I do not know the details but it goes something like: 
Another company did the imports but marketing fell short.*
*Accucraft picked up the marketing ball and stock.....so I hear....*

*KHANDO link*

*RFD-TV just ran a PRR K-4 1361 on the Trains & Loco show. *
*If you have that channel, there will be a rebroadcast EARLY Tuesday AM.*




Hi Ray,

I REALLY appreciate the link and the info on RFD. I have an auto record set for RFD but it does not always work. I will double check to be sure to record the K4 episode.

I took my tender out in the sun today and I can't be sure if it is black or a very dark green (perhaps darker than Brunswick green).

Any idea what the difference between #1361 and #1339 other than number? Mine is #1361.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06 Sep 2010 07:27 PM 
When the errant screw is installed correctly, the front of the boiler is quite secure. I lift the loco by the smokebox and by the cab roof. 

I did check that the cab is securely fastened, but it has 4 screws, so the likelihood of all four coming loose at the same time is nil. 

Glad the 45 degree "braces" held, otherwise the front would definitely have come loose. 

Anyway, Jerry and I chatted on the phone today. This is a new facet of locomotive, with tons of tiny bolts and screws. 

Luckily, Jerry found the loose nut re-secured the boiler and is now good to go. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the additional information you provided on the phone. Hopefully I will have a chance to actually run the K4 on my layout tomorrow.

I think all that was wrong was that the boiler screw nut was not tightened at the factory and just unscrewed itself causing the boiler to try to separate from the frame. I think and hope all is fixed now. 
Jim's information on the single screw holding the smokebox cover on enabled me to find the screw and remove it with a needle nose pliers (without needing to remove the headlight) which made the boiler screw and nut accessible.


Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The paint on the hex bolts comes off easily, but a black magic marker will take care of that. If you contact Accucraft for some parts, get a few spare hex head bolts. 

Glad it was not damaged! 

Greg


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## N1CW (Jan 3, 2008)

*Jerry*

*>Any idea what the difference between #1361 and #1339 other than number? Mine is #1361.*
*Open the link to see #1339 is the Pre-War version.
Main difference are the lights on the pilot and the exposed front coupler. 
**You can call me late for dinner but dont call me Jim....







*


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By N1CW on 07 Sep 2010 04:13 AM 

*Jerry*

*>Any idea what the difference between #1361 and #1339 other than number? Mine is #1361.*
*Open the link to see #1339 is the Pre-War version.
Main difference are the lights on the pilot and the exposed front coupler. 
**You can call me late for dinner but dont call me Jim....







*




At first I did not understand but then I realized the Khando photo was different from my K4 so I guess the 1339 is a pre-war and the 1361 is post-war. I had not understood what everyone was talking about when they referred to pre-war and post-war K4's (I've never paid any attention to PRR locos and just happened to run into this one at a good price).

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Today was THE day - that I first ran the K4 on my layout. 

Its been raining so I ran it in the crawl space along with 6 Aristo PRR Heavyweights. Everything went just fine but somehow that bright LED headlight bugs me (I don't know why). I may have to figure out how to replace it with something else.

I did find that the K4 acts a bit sluggish at times which probably has to do with running it on 8' diameter curves. It handles the curves but I don't think it likes them a lot and the center blind driver looks like it is almost ready to fall inside the rails.

While at it I tried the K4 (loco only) around a 5' diameter curve and it made it (forward only - not in reverse) but I will not do it again as I suspect it was trying to derail.

The main problem I had was with the coupler match. The tender coupler would fall out (over) the Aristo knuckle coupler. I then put a LGB knuckle coupler on the Aristo Heavyweight and they stayed coupled but even so the K4 coupler was almost halfway out of the top of the LGB coupler.

*I would like to hear what others are doing to match their K4's with Aristo Heavyweights.*

In my case I share the PRR Heavyweights with a LGB Mikado, Aristo Live Steam Mikado, Aristo E-8 and possibly but not probably with LGB F7's. Because of this I would not want to do anything drastic that would limit compatibility with other knuckle couplers. I suspect the right Kadee coupler on the back of the tender that would drop down 1/2" or so might work with everything else. Has anyone done this and if so what would be the best Kadee coupler to use (function is more important than looks to me)?

Assuming the ammeter was reading correctly I was surprised at the low amps the K4 and coaches pulled. The LGB Jumbo was only showing about 4 amps total.

One other thing is that the sound system switch on the tender does not seem to do anything. I could not notice any difference between having it switched to the left or to the right. The good news is that the whistle sound was FAR better on the layout with the loco running than it had sounded on the short test track. Chances are that the battery needed somewhat of a charge to sound its best.

I did notice the slight tinny sound at full volume so I will try the paper roll trick and see if that makes any difference. 
The only other issue is whether or not to put a smoke unit in the K4. I've decided that I will only do it if I can do everything with the loco upright and access through the smoke box without having to remover anything other than the smoke box cover. That will have to wait for another day. I am back to wondering if I might be able to fit a LGB/Seuthe smoke unit into the smokestack but that leads to the question of using a 5 volt unit with a voltage regulator or to just go with a 24 volt unit. If I can find a 24 volt unit I may try that and see if it fits and works.


Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's geared high, so it will noticeably slow down on curves.

The headlight wires are pretty easy to get to, and the headlight LED can usually be pulled out without removing the headlight shell.


The coupler match is fine: (the play in the AML coupler is all taken up in the downwards direction in this picture)










It's the Aristo heavyweights that are the problem. The long coupler tang and the fact that the pivot is not at the center of the truck makes the tang go up and down like crazy.

For all Aristo systems, the "override plate" on the underside of the coupler makes things stay together.

On normal couplers now you have to depend on the couplers being at the right height. I messed with springs on my heavyweights since the couplers on my "lead" heavyweight always tended to be low or high (forgot which). I removed springs on one "end" of the truck to try to bias it so it would stay level... really a waste of time.

I body mounted couplers and my problems were over. Of course body mounting on a long car means you have to have smooth transitions to and from your grades.

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I put an Aristocraft coupler on the back of K-4 tender to accomodate the heavyweight coupler's vertical movement that Greg described. The tang on the bottom of the Aristo coupler definately helps. There is a picture of the coupler mounted in page #4 of this thread.

JimC.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pimanjc on 07 Sep 2010 08:10 PM 
I put an Aristocraft coupler on the back of K-4 tender to accomodate the heavyweight coupler's vertical movement that Greg described. The tang on the bottom of the Aristo coupler definately helps. There is a picture of the coupler mounted in page #4 of this thread.

JimC.


Hi Jim,

I found your photo. I might have to do that but for now the huge LGB coupler seems to be holding the train together. Your photo gives me a next step to go to if I need to.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

As an update, I did go ahead and installed a LGB 24 volt smoke unit and it works. The smoke volume is not high but for now with the K4 in the crawl space I can't tolerate much smoke there anyway. I might eventually replace it with a 5 volt LGB smoke unit. If so I will probably use this circuit:










I don't know if I will need that capacitors since it will just be powering a smoke unit.

*I am having a problem with the sound unit.* Yesterday the sound system worked perfectly but today the chuff cuts in and out (sort of a loping effect).

It is as if the chuff sensors (reed switches) are no longer properly positioned with reference to the magnets but I don't know how the Phoenix sound system is set up regarding the chuff sensors. I seem to recall that the K4 had chuff sensors pre-installed.

At first I thought it might be a loose wire at the loco-tender junction but the chuff lopes on straight track as much as on curves which makes me think the problem is at the chuff sensor.

I'll have to start doing some research to figure this out.

Jerry


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

The chuff contacts are metal wipers that touch the rear driver axel, which has 4 metal strips to complete the circuit. These get dirty very quickly and are easily cleaned with a cotton swab. I left the 'stock' contacts on the Pre-War unit. On the Post War unit I put in magnets and a reed switch, which are more reliable. nick jr


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerrys RR on 05 Sep 2010 07:38 PM 
*How many variations of Accucraft K4's are/were there?*

So far it sounds like there were PRR and NYC; Black and Green; with and without Phoenix sound; pre-war and post war. Is this correct and were there other variations?

It seems strange that the Accucraft web site has no references at all of the electric K4. 
Are there any parts drawings?


Thanks,

Jerry


I've never seen a NYC black K4, only Brunswick green versions.

Does anybody have a pic of a NYC version? If so please post it


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Chucks_Trains on 08 Sep 2010 03:57 PM I've never seen a NYC black K4, only Brunswick green versions. 
Does anybody have a pic of a NYC version? If so please post it










My mistake. I went back and found the post but the guy was going to paint his PRR K4 and change it to NYC.

I think I was also wrong about the black. Mine sure looks black to me but when the light hits it just right I can see a greenish tint to it.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

*My former comments have been deleted - by me.*


I was having problems trying to figure out how to fix the chuffing on my K-4 so I phoned Cliff at Accucraft and he walked me through it.

The K-4 is now huffing and puffing around the layout very nicely now. The loco is running great, the sound is great, the smoke is smoking and I am feeling great.

Thanks for all the help, 
Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

*K-4 Safe and Secure Carrying Case*


I had a problem. I finally got everything fixed and the K-4 was running nicely BUT it was a MAJOR concern for me to figure how the heck I could safely transport it.

This morning I decided I would like to carry it to the caboose layout and run it there but that means carrying it downstairs, through the door, down more stairs, and across the gravel driveway - perhaps 75 yards to the gazebo, and either up and through the gazebo or around it.

The case it was shipped in was secure enough for shipping because the K-4 was taped to the metal case but with it just sitting in the case it could very easily fall out to the left or to the right if I slightly tilted the case.









-
It is not too difficult to lift and put the K-4 inside the side-less case and I was thinking about making either plywood or Plexiglas sides for it which would be one more task to have to do but then I noticed this box










and I thought maybe I would make the sides out of the box but then when I was checking it (by sliding it into the case from the top) I found the sides were not long enough BUT - it fit the loco pretty well and that thought led to this thought...










Heck, this is PERFECT! Why get fancy? The box fits over the K-4 and it is tall enough to keep the K-4 from tipping over and it is strong enough to keep the K-4 from falling anywhere!!!

Yesterday I would never have dared to put the K-4 on the railing where it is about 20' above the ground but today all I had to do was to drop the box over the K-4, pick up the case with the K-4 protected by the box, set the case on the railing, slide the box off the K-4 and the K-4 sits where I wanted it to take the photo. 
After the photo I slipped the box back over the K-4 and carried it back into the house. Later I will carry it out to the caboose layout comfortable with knowing the K-4 is safe from falling out of the "case."

The tender is not a problem as I can just carry it by itself.

Perhaps this simple idea may help another K-4 owner. I love the simplicity of it.

Jerry

PS A side benefit of this is that the photo shows that my K-4 really is green and not the black that I had thought it was.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

I finally got the K-4 outside - on the Caboose Layout - with the Aristo PRR Heavyweights.

*UPDATE:**

The only remaining problem was getting the couplers to match in height. For now I have returned the Accucraft knuckle coupler to the tender and put a Kadee knuckle coupler on the Combine's truck tongue. I think this is going to work but I have just finished it and it will be tomorrow before I can try it.*

*After running the K-4 for some time I noticed the chuff seems to be starting to skip a chuff now and then. I hope this is not going to be an ongoing problem.*



*Once I got the K-4 running outside I found that the 24 volt LGB smoke unit is working very nicely. It may not put out as much smoke as other units or have a puffing effect but it was very easy to install and it does not use a lot of smoke fluid. If anything it seems to work better outside with the smoke more visible - this may be due to the bright headlight masking some of the smoke indoors.*

*Additionally the smoke unit seems to work better when pulling the coaches - probably because it takes more volts to get moving. This probably gives a boost (more volts) to the smoke unit.*





























Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

First I tried Jim's suggestion:

07 Sep 2010 08:10 P 
I put an Aristocraft coupler on the back of K-4 tender to accomodate the heavyweight coupler's vertical movement that Greg described. The tang on the bottom of the Aristo coupler definately helps. There is a picture of the coupler mounted in page #4 of this thread. 

JimC.


but I ran into a problem with the Aristo couplers having a major difference in height between the tender and Heavyweight. I suspect the difference between Jim's coupling and mine is that Jim mentioned he is using Aristo-Craft Streamliners and I am using old Aristo-Craft Heavyweights which probably have longer truck tongues which may have more droop to them. The photo below shows how much variation in height there is between the tender coupler centerline and the coach truck tongue.

About the best holding coupling of the K-4 with the Aristo Heavyweights so far has been to put the original coupler back onto the K-4 and to put one of my Kadee couplers on the front of the Aristo Heavyweight. So far this has held together with no accidental uncoupling. None of my Kadee couplers are of an in-between height that would lower the coupler 1/2 of its coupler height.










I continue to have occasional problems with the chuff switches. Eventually I may need to use some different sort of chuff switch.

Another K-4 problem is that the loco connection for the tender wire harness seems to be coming loose. I need to find out how it is attached and to tighten it. Unfortunately it seems that every time I run the K-4 some new problem seems to come up. Hopefully these will eventually be permanently resolved.

I do like the LGB smoke unit even though it may not smoke a lot. At least it is so simple that it either works or it does not. If it eventually burns out it will be simple to replace it.

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

*Perhaps someone can help me with this (Jim or Greg?):*

The wiring jack in my K-4 is loose. It appears to be screwed tight to the metal base but the metal base itself is loose and I did not find in Jim's or Greg's descriptions how this base is attached to the loco. Naturally I am hoping (beyond hope?) that I can fix this without having to take the K-4 apart.










This photo (I borrowed the photos from Jim's posts) shows the power plug apparently is screwed to the base with slot headed screws but *I have no idea what the metal plate that the power plug is screwed to is in turn attached to - or even what size or shape it is. I am trying very hard to avoid having to take the K-4 apart.*











*I would appreciate any help (especially with photos) of the simplest and easiest way to get the power plug firmly reattached to the K-4.*

As everyone knows, the K-4 is large, heavy and bulky. I have no option but to unplug the tender every time I take the K-4 off the layout and to plug it back in whenever I return the K-4 to the layout. I hope that whatever is loose can be tightened in such a way (Locktite?) that it will not keep working itself loose again in the future.

I hate to say it but it seems that every time I bring out the K-4 to run it I end up having to stop running it due to something not working or about to fail. It is really frustrating. Even after I cleaned the chuff contacts on the K-4 and got them to work 100% after a few hours of running the chuff has already started to skip every so often so I know I am going to have to clean it again soon (perhaps every few hours of running).

I don't like posting my negative experiences with my K-4 on Jim's topic and I only do so because Jim invited me to post here - and of course I did not anticipate having any problems at all with my K-4. The truth is that I am still very glad that I bought the K-4 but I would have been very disappointed if I had paid what the guy I bought it from had originally paid for it.

Perhaps the most important thing is that nothing I have run into so far has been the result of previous damage or has resulted in damage to the K-4. Everything has pretty much involved loose screws and connections. 

This reminded me of another potential problem (one that may have been a contributing problem).

As I was installing and removing the Aristo-Craft 5474 Receiver to activate the bell and whistle (I removed it because I could not get it to work with the Phoenix 2K2 and I did not like having the antenna wire sticking out of the tender), I noticed that whoever had installed the 2K2 had failed to extend the heat shrink insulation over the chuff wire splice so it is possible that the chuff wire was shorting out to the frame of the tender. It may be worth others checking to see that the splices between the K-4 wires and the Phoenix wires are properly insulated.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The chuff contacts suck, like any mechanical ones. The best thing to do is embed magnets where the 4 brass strips are and then mount a reed switch, it will then be perfect. 

I forgot what the metal base is connected to, but after brunch I'll haul my loco out and tell you what your problem is... that mounting is not very sturdy, fill the socket with silicon dielectric grease (the clear stuff) and just be really careful when connecting and removing. The screws come loose since there are only 2 of them. 

Shorting the chuff wire would have no effect on the bell/whistle... could you ground those wires manually and confirm if the 2k2 is working? This is a simple test. 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Greg,

I had thought about trying to put tiny magnets where the brass strips are (along with a reed switch) but I would like to get more use out of the K-4 before putting more work into it. As yet I am reluctant to take the driver covers off to get access to insert the magnets - plus the problem of getting the right adhesive that will never release the magnets where they could cause problems with the gears etc.

It occurred to me that since Accucraft recommends lubricating the chuff contacts that the right lubricant might slow tarnishing of the brass strips and improve the conductivity of the contact. I may put some LGB oil on the brass strips when I next clean them. It would seem to me that tarnishing of the brass is probably the main reason for the contacts to be losing their electrical properties. 

I agree that the brass strip type of contact was a dumb idea and I will eventually have to do something about it.

I will have a problem if the screws come loose as it looks like it would involve removing the cab to get access to the screws. It may be a good idea for me to put some Locktite on the screws now rather than to wait for them to get loose. From Jim's photos I would have guessed that there would be 4 screws but that is a guess.

You are most likely correct about grounding the chuff wires but I would not be willing to risk damage to the Phoenix board by doing it - plus the tender would have to be connected for such a test to work and that would mean a work surface with both the loco and tender (its hard enough for me to work on the loco alone).

Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would put a plastic safe lubricant designed to reduce or eliminate corrosion. Lewis Polk has long recommended CRC 2-26, a plastic safe precision lubricant, "electical grade". I agree. 

From the can: "lubricates, cleans, and protects" , "leaves a thin, molecular, non-hardening film" ..."combatting the return of moisture and corrosion". 

I had a loco (Aristo) with rusted wheels (plating worn off) and sprayed it liberally on the wheels and ran it, all the rust was gone in just a few laps. 

(of course I needed to clean the wheels and rails of all the junk removed) 

Try this on your contact "drum" and it was available here at Home Depot. 

There are FOUR screws that attach the pcb board (that the socket is attached to) to the metal plate. The plate appears to be "L" shaped and the forward end takes a 90 degree bend down into the rear of the frame. I cannot see where it is attached either. 

Regards, Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
You don't have to tear down the loco to use a reed switch ILO the drum. Hook the two wires from the reed switch to the two screws that hold on the wipers. You need to remove the wipers for this operation. I either used super glue or Locktite Stick and seal glue for the wheel magnets [2 at 180 degrees]. 

Somewhere there is a thread about this conversion, but I have no idea where it is.










JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Now that I have a lathe, I'll try putting magnets in my drum. 

One great advantage of locos made this way is that there is not a huge amount of side to side "play" in the drivers, so the relationship between the magnets and the reed switch is no problem. 

Therefore you are not forced to put the magnets on the tender pickups, and you can get exact chuff timing. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Jerry, removing the bottom cover is easy and safe.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

This photo (I think it is Jim C"s) seems to show that two screws should extend down far enough to be secured possibly without removing the cab.
I will try to get to it tomorrow to see what I find.











If I do go with the magnets I think I would prefer to put them (if possible) on the axle rather than the wheels. The wheels tend to be much more exposed and increase the chance of knocking them off.

I have some 3M super glue I may try if I go that way.

As for lubricants my normal preference regarding train stuff is LGB oil but if I went to the CRC type I would use 3M 5 Way Spray (since I sold it for many years in competition with CRC). The problem with CRC or 3M 5 Way is that they are a penetrating lubricant that could work their way to thin the grease lubricating the axles plus they also tend to attract dust and would probably be harder to remove if I wanted to glue magnets in place. I think the LGB oil would be less inclined to migrate away from the brass strips and contact wires possibly making it easier to remove if I go the magnet route. 

Of course I have predetermined prejudices regarding my preferences for and against lubricants so I am not open minded in this area.

My first choice would be to try to get the Accucraft chuff contacts to work rather than to have to replace them.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oil will not work as well as the CRC, the crc is designed to leave a film.. oil is oil.. it has no "brains"... it will spread out since it stays as oil, not a thing coating designed to stay in place. 

Yes, maybe the 2 other screws go all the way through the pcb and the spacers and the back end of the frame, it was getting dusk when I looked at it. 

Well, I gave you my best advice... I'd have a self limiting film over oil migrating wherever it wanted to go.. 

By the way, lube the axles with heavy gear oil, not grease. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 Sep 2010 08:51 PM 
well, I gave you my best advice... I'd have a self limiting film over oil migrating wherever it wanted to go.. 

By the way, lube the axles with heavy gear oil, not grease. 

Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg, 

I appreciate the advice. Our (my) actions are less a reflection on the value of the advice as much as a response based on our (my) personal life experiences and what happens to be readily available. I do understand how lubricants work. I was the 3M factory rep (including our line of 3M chemical products) for all or part of 5 States. In addition to 20+ years of selling 3M chemicals and other products for what they were designed I also have 20+ years of using 3M products for a wide variety of applications they were never designed or intended for.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/

Sometimes I choose to use what I have in hand rather than something I would have to go out (gas $$) and buy.

Thanks, I really do appreciate all information whether I end up using it or doing something different because new information expands my options.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not trying to fight Jerry, just can't understand the LGB oil over a product apparently designed for (at least pretty closely) the purpose you want. In my experience a thin film of oil will pick up more dirt and grit than one of these type spray coatings. 

Maybe I don't understand lubricants as well as you do, but I've definitely had many years of experience using these lubricants on trains and other equipment. 

But any way, the real proof for your specific application will be trying it and seeing what happens. i.e. if contact reliability is increased, and if so, for how long. 

I did this experiment on my K4 and nothing seemed to last a long time. Some chemicals, like Deoxit made a huge difference, but Deoxit is my "magic" find. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 08:55 AM 
Not trying to fight Jerry, just can't understand the LGB oil over a product apparently designed for (at least pretty closely) the purpose you want. In my experience a thin film of oil will pick up more dirt and grit than one of these type spray coatings. 


Regards, Greg 

Hi Greg,

At this time I am not looking for the best long term solution but rather a short term test for practicality.

3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26 are very similar products designed for virtually identical applications.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQGLE0_nid=3WTFXNJG23be2VP2LSN43Qgl
3M 5-Way Penetrant[/b]
Displaces moisture and dries out electrical apparatus. Helps prevent shorting and increases conductivity. Inhibits rust. Frees rusted bolts, lubricates and cleanes, drives out moisture. Also excellent as a tapping liquid for stainless steel and aluminum. 

*http://www.crcind.com.au/catalogue.nsf/web_brands/CRC+2-26?openDocument
*CRC 2-26[/b] displaces and seals out moisture. Prevents corrosion, cleans, lubricates, penetrates. CRC 2.26 is a stable, inert organic formula , especially prepared to prevent and repair electrical failures due to moisture, corrosion, dirt or friction. Contains no silicones. Non-flammable.A '6 in 1' product:
1. A moisture eliminator - for wet equipment.
2. A moisture barrier to prevent trouble before it starts. The protective film seals out moisture.
3. A lubricant - lubricates contacts.
4. A penetrant - frees rusted or corroded parts.
5. A protector against corrosion in all electrical equipment..
6. A cleaner - apply to a corroded area - the solvent system in 2.26 will act as a degreaser. 

It is because both 3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26 are aerosol penetrants that I do not wish to start with them but rather to first test with LGB Oil which, instead of being a penetrating aerosol (going everywhere), comes with a needle point applicator that will enable me to place a tiny drop on the chuff wires which will transfer to the brass strips and should prove to my satisfaction if I wish to pursue this method of chuff control or to instead switch to mini-magnets to be attached between the brass strips.

If I start with an aerosol penetrant it will instantly coat the very surface where I would want to permanently attach the magnets and the film left by the penetrating oil will need to be completely removed for any hope of an adhesive to stick where the penetrating oil was sprayed.

The best method of removing the penetrating oil oil would probably be an aerosol contact cleaner such as 3M™ Novec™ Contact Cleaner Plus

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Novec/Home/Product_Information/Product_Navigator/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE5D02J33P04L38E5_univid=1180607222991

This means that I could end up spraying (into the confined space of the K-4 gearbox) first an aerosol penetrating oil and then an aerosol oil solvent both of which could attack the lubricants Accucraft had used for the K-4 driver etc. 

Its not that we disagree on what might be the best solution to one situation but rather that I have not yet determined if I want to go the lubricant or the magnetic route for increasing the reliability of the K-4 chuff sensing. 
I should clarify that 3M chemical products were a secondary line for me. They were manufactured by a different 3M division and sold by their own sales force but parts of their product line were made for and marketed by my division (Electrical Products). My division's primary responsibility was for products designed for electrical wire and cable management (insulating, connecting, terminating and identification) up through 35,000 volts. By no means was I a specialist in lubricating products.


Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I get your concern about a penetrant... I did not pay close attention to that aspect on the CRC, because I have used it with not problems. Gotcha, depending on the permeability of the "drum" it could be a problem, agreed. 

I think the drum is nylon, but who knows! 

You know, the 3m products are much harder to find, but the 5-way stuff sounds interesting... I'd like to buy a can and see how I like it. Are they typically distributed somewhere other than home improvement / hardware stores? 

Greg


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,
A problem that Jerry and I both have is the scarcity of G-scale and all-scale trains shops within a reasonable distance for pruchasing [especially out of the ordinary] items. There are only two train shops within a 150 mi radius of my home. I suspect Jerry has similiar conditions, with either Little Rock, or Fort Smith being the two larger towns in his area. Sometimes Jerry's reluctance to get a specific item may be easy availability as well as comfort with an existing product that he has on=hand. As Jerry said, the knowledge of the products is extremely valuable for future use.

JimC.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 12:50 PM 
You know, the 3m products are much harder to find, but the 5-way stuff sounds interesting... I'd like to buy a can and see how I like it. Are they typically distributed somewhere other than home improvement / hardware stores? 

Greg 

Hi Greg,

I retired from 3M Electrical Products Division on 1/1/01 and it has been over 10 years since I have had any contact with my old division which I think has been reorganized into a new division(s?) with a reorganized approach to the electrical market. Where I once sold everything to everyone, now they have divided the market into sectors with different salesmen (or agents) now handling various portions of the product line. The days of a 3M electrical products factory rep calling on rural markets like Arkansas are over. My information about who sells what for 3M is now 10 years out of date.

On a whim I did try Grainger (not one of my former distributors) and they appear to carry 3M 5 Way Spray. I don't know where you live but they may have a branch near you.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=5+way&op=search&Ntt=5+way&N=0&sst=subset

You may not find much difference in performance between 3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26. One word of caution - the Grainger data seems to confirm the 3M 5 Way still uses a flammable propellant (Isobutane and Propane Base) while CRC 2-26 does not. The 5 Way I have been using is now over 10 years old and it still performs very well for me. I always considered 5 Way to be superior to 2-26 and WD-40 but then I was (and am) prejudiced. All three tend to gum up with age (such as when used as firearm lubricants).








Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By pimanjc on 20 Sep 2010 03:03 PM 
Greg,
A problem that Jerry and I both have is the scarcity of G-scale and all-scale trains shops within a reasonable distance for pruchasing [especially out of the ordinary] items. There are only two train shops within a 150 mi radius of my home. I suspect Jerry has similiar conditions, with either Little Rock, or Fort Smith being the two larger towns in his area. Sometimes Jerry's reluctance to get a specific item may be easy availability as well as comfort with an existing product that he has on=hand. As Jerry said, the knowledge of the products is extremely valuable for future use.

JimC.


Hi Jim,

You defined the situation perfectly. There is not a single large scale distributor in the entire state of Arkansas. Just as important, the nearest source of most items beyond Radio Shack (now almost worthless for electrical/electronic parts) means a trip to Little Rock at a cost of about $25 for gas etc. The electronic distributors have for the most part gone out of business, specialized or done away with their parts counters so one needs to pre-order by phone if you want to pick up anything. Internet sales are not much better because you have to know in advance what you want and then pay a shipping minimum.

90% of the time if I cannot do something with what I have on hand I forget about it or wait until I just happen to be where what I want happens to be.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think we have a Grainger close by to one of our branch stores. I'll have one of my guys go buy it and send it to me... Almost anything is superior to WD40 (a San Diego company!), which definitely leaves a tacky film that goes bad over time. 

WD40 is sort of like an addiction, you spray it on, and seems fine for a while, then gums up, so you spray more on to dissolve and wash away the old stuff.... leaving new stuff which will go gummy later. The CRC product is definitely superior here, and safer on plastic too. 

The CRC 2-26 does not attack plastic, I wonder if the 3M product says "plastic safe"... no matter, I buy lots of different stuff and try it out. That's the way I find my "gold mines", like the Deoxit which is unparalleled for oxide reduction and can be sprayed on sensitive contacts... also lanocote, which is a corrosion inhibitor that has lanoline as a base, very safe and does not attack anything... I go shopping in the marine supply stores here, since they have such lubrication and corrosion problems, I often find very cool stuff. 

And San Diego only has one hobby store to speak of when you get to G scale... and the only rolling stock left in it is what I did not want to buy... so I am likewise about 100 miles away from any store of value. It's a real pain. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi Greg,

I can no longer speak for 3M but I've used 5 Way Spray on a variety of plastics for many years with no damage visible to me.

Here is the MSDS for it:

http://complyplus.grainger.com/grainger/msds.asp?sheetid=3029845

Also if you have someone going to Grainger you may want to try 3M Silicone Lubricant (it is what I will probably use on the K-4 power plug and jack)

Silicone Lubricant, Size 24 fl.oz., Size/Net Weight 13.25 oz., Temp Range 28 to 350 F, Flash Point -50F F, VOC Content 95%, Specific Gravity 0.64, Butane Propellant, Contains No Methylene Chloride, CFCs or 1, 1, 1-Trichlorethane., Aerosol Chemical. Won't Stain or Become Gummy., Use to Lubricate Moving Parts. Eliminates Squeaks Caused by Friction. Prevents Sticking and Freezing. Protects Against Rust and Corrosion. Seals Out Moisture. Preserves Plastic, Rubber, and Leather.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/3M-Silicone-Lubricant-2GKG9?Pid=search

The MSDS for it is here:

http://complyplus.grainger.com/grainger/msds.asp?sheetid=2960161

3M is a company that people seldom think about yet something like 40% of the people use at least one 3M product every day. 3M invented many of our every day products from Sand Paper to Scotch Tape to Vinyl Electrical Tape to Post it Notes to Scotch-Brite (everything from reflective street signs to license plates etc.) to Scotch-Gard to Face Masks from surgeons to body shops to adhesives that do everything from holding the heat shields onto the Space Shuttles to attaching the wings to many of the planes we fly (really). When I retired 3M had run experiments on every Space Shuttle flown. 

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 03:57 PM 
I wonder if the 3M product says "plastic safe

Regards, Greg 


Hi Greg,

I went and got a (10+ year old) can of 3M 5-Way Penetrant and on the side it says "Works on metal, plastics, rubber, painted surfaces." 

You also mentioned "I go shopping in the marine supply stores here, since they have such lubrication and corrosion problems, I often find very cool stuff."

You might find some more cool 3M stuff in the 3M Marine Products Catalog (you will need the two dashes at the end of the link):


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...vTSeSSSSSS--

Then there are the 3M Automotive Products: 
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...t-Catalog/

I am only posting links to these in that you may find other 3M products that you may find interesting to try out. You will also find product overlaps between 3M divisions as many 3M divisions market products made by other 3M divisions (and many retailers are set up by multiple 3M divisions to sell their products).

It is not that I am pushing 3M products (I am retired and I have not had any contact with 3M in many years) but there are MANY products invented by and only available from 3M that most people are totally unaware of.


Regards,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Jerry, I'm always on the lookout for lubricants, protectants, anti-corrosion, and other things. 

I would think their marine grade adhesives might be good for buildings, they are obviously moisture resistant, and have more UV protection.. 

Also, I see on the lubricants, a 4-way lubricant, but no 5 way? 

Greg


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Sep 2010 11:43 AM 
I see on the lubricants, a 4-way lubricant, but no 5 way? 

Greg 



Hi Greg,

Your guess is as good as mine. I see by the MSDS that it is a product of the Automotive Aftermarket Division (as opposed to 3M Electrical or various 3M OEM divisions). That suggests to me that this division may have had some desired variation in the chemical composition as opposed to the Electrical Products Division (perhaps related to 12 volt DC electrical systems rather than higher AC voltage systems. This is purely a guess on my part.

http://www.rshughes.com/images/products/docs/nKhNI2R8MQizP1wJNjRmjg.pdf

I've lost touch but it looks like as of 2009 3M still spends well over $1,000,000,000 per year on R&D. Few companies/corporations can match or come close to this. 

R&D and Related Expenditures
For 2009 ………………………….....… $1.293 billion
Total for last five years ……………...... $6.861 billion

Technology
 45 technology platforms, including:
 Adhesives
 Abrasives
 Light Management
 Microreplication
 Nonwoven Materials
 Nanotechnology
 Surface Modification 

 6,700 researchers worldwide; 3,400 in the United States.

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs66S592COrrrrQ- (remember to include the dash)

I started with 3M Business Products Sales Inc. selling Microfilm/Microfiche equipment in 1972. At the time 3M BPSI was the largest division of 3M. Not long after I left that division (9 years later) for 3M Electrical Products, 3M BPSI and all of its product lines (and almost all its personnel) were gone. 3M Company has a unique ability to reinvent itself according to market and technology changes.

Unless things have changed, each division is more or less autonomous and operates as an independent company under the corporate umbrella. Various divisions may carry identical products or they may carry totally different products or anything in-between. This is an oversimplification but it may explain why a sales rep with one division may or may not know what other divisions are selling. A place like Lowes or Home Depot may be selling 3M products from over a dozen different 3M divisions while other companies buy 3M OEM products that go into the manufacture of their products and are never seen by the consumer. There is an old joke about a receptionist asking three 3M sales reps why they were not talking to each other - they represented 3 different 3M divisions and had never met each other.

Regards,

Jerry


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