# Any differences or preferences in LLagas and Sunset track?



## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Not that I am ready to start laying track anytime soon but I figured I should start looking at getting some to for a layout in the future. While I world have preferred code 332 stainless steel I am seeing there are not as many turn out options so I am gravitating to Code 250 where LLagas and Sunset valley offer a lot more options. I am curious if people have any opinions on these manufacturers. I was leaning more toward LLagas as I was annoyed that the larger switches from Sunset would require a separate micro switch if I decided to use track power which makes things more difficult in an outside setup, but I also had someone tell me they were apprehensive with Llagas as they didn't think the tie strips were as good. So does anyone have experience with both and has a preference? Is the quality the same for both?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

My layout is mostly Sunset Valley. I especially like their turnouts. They are built to last a long time and availability is very good. Some of my turnouts have been in use for over ten years and are still in great shape. In the past couple years I have made one change. I now use AML ties with Sunset Valley aluminum rail. I have never really been fond of the center spline on the Sunset tie strip, so any new additions or changes are done this way. Sunset Valley rail fits perfectly in the Aml tie strip so now in my opinion I have the best of both worlds.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

The transition rail clamps for 332 to 250 work great in case you go with both options. 332ss track and SV turnouts would probably be the ultimate for reliable ops. On the other hand, you'll have to look past the rail and tie transition.








BTW, the USAT and Polks #6 switches also have micro switches to flip the frog polarity. (I usually remove them)


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

I am looking to try and stick with one manufacturer if I can and wondering about the quality I think of the Llagas tie strips. The micro switch for polarity irks me in that if I add track power its one more electronic component that I need to hide and keep dry outside.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have some 1/32 Llagas creek flex track you can check out. They seem plenty durable to me...although the std ga ties are shockingly different than what we're used to (perhaps a good thing?)

Both SV and Llagas use a different material cross ties for switches vs their flex track. Some of the Llagas switches have wooden ties.


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## Bryan14 (Oct 12, 2012)

I own Llagas Creek and we are no longer using wooden ties in any our 1:32 switches, they all have plastic ties just like the rest of our switches.


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## Bryan14 (Oct 12, 2012)

Josephunh, call me before you pull the trigger on which type of track to use on your new layout. 724-986-5079


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I started with Sunset Valley back when it was Garich Light Transport. Main reason was the code 250, trains just look more like trains than the toy look you get on code 332(my opinion). Can't go wrong with their switches, I have one that is 25 years old or so. I like their ground throws also, don't trip over them like I do the other ones. No probems with ties.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

My Llagas Creek code 250 aluminum track and switches have gone thru 10 Vermont seasonal changes with no problems. I recently installed a 12/10 ft radius curved switch received from the new owner, Bryon, and the quality remains excellent. Split Jaw aluminum railclamps are used exclusively (I run live steam, so no conductivity issues).

Larry


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## Brandon (Jul 6, 2011)

I got samples of both, but since Llagas didn't do stainless switches so I went with SVRR code 250 stainless rail and switches because I didn't want different silver colors/weathering or to paint. I also used AML ties as well because I didn't like the center spine on SVRR. I did like Llagas switches more, seemed like they were more refined and less variance in movement slop in them, plus more attention to detail in them. On ties 4 years later the AMS ties are getting a little more brittle than I expected, much more than aristocraft of other railroads I visit. 

I do think if I were to do it over, I wouldn't do 250 but because of camber issues in turns. The 250 and its ties are just a little flimsy for large railroads to be reliable IMO. It requires a LOT of maintenance for ballasting because the camber of the rail can change more easily and the 250 from SVRR at least had a 15 degree camber in the track even when using their own rail bender, maybe someone elses rail bender won't add this nasty camber in, which to this day I still have stakes holding ties to reduce the camber and derailings. I've also found if you or someone else steps on 250, it can bend the rail just a 1/16" of an inch over a foot or so length and that's enough for some picky cars to cause to ride up on a rail and derail if it's on a curve. So if I did an indoor layout and could always control the flatness of rail I'd absolutely do 250 again, but aluminum since it's inside and won't thermal expand. Outside 250 has been annoying to deal with derailings because any curve, even a 16' radius will cause problems with longer trains and cars riding up the sides of rail and derailing if there's almost any camber at all. I somewhat envy guys with sectional track because there's no camber issue with that stuff and even other flex track railroads I've never seen these sort of issues with camber. Maybe my rail bender was defective, I don't know, but it's been a pain. My goal is to computer automate my railroad with rfid tags and readers but that will first require the ability to run for an hour or so without derailing and I've never achieved that on 400' of mainline rail. I think some of it too is I bought some used rolling stock that I liked and even with conversion to metal wheels it's an issue. I've wondered at times if the stainless I have is too rough, not smooth like brass, and that friction on curves is also part of the problem. Aluminum also wouldn't have the same roughness I have with the stainless rail heads.

As for track quality itself I'm a little disappointed in SVRR stainless and quality of a few switches (Bought in 2012 or 2013. Luckily I bought extra switches and rail which I've had to replace even before getting the railroad running. Some pieces of rail I got had iron spots and was also very pitted, low grade stainless?? Some switches have had entire lengths/pieces of stainless rail completely rust out. Some switches had curved rail so when the point moved and tried to slip into the groove for the transition it could not, and it took a LOT of fine tuning to get some of them working well, a couple even needed filing before I could even install them. I also found if using rail clamps you had to bend the rail going to the switch perfectly or it would effect the gauge of the switch, the nails holding the rail on the switches aren't very strong to resist much if any force, it wasn't bad at first but after just one winter cycle the nails seemed to lose up.

I never could run track power reliably either with SVRR, even after cleaning rail with everything from soap, sheetrock sandpaper, and a file, there were sections of some rail pieces that will not conduct well or at all, even a volt meter showed dead track areas, just strange... It makes no sense to me and I know electronics, it's almost like there were so many impurities near the surface it wouldn't conduct for 1" to even 10" of lengths, and if I filed it down it would work for a few dozen passes is all. If I replaced the rail length it fully fixed the problem and that section didn't have problems again. But then I eventually got tired of replacing rail and just went battery even before my railroad was finished. I actually found the 330 aluminum rail I bought for testing/indoors would support several hundred passings before needing to be cleaned, about 50 times less often than SVRR. Everyone will have different experiences, but this has been mine. I was told it was because my soil was clay and alkaline which causes problems for stainless, and we have a lot of fine clay dust always in the air.

Wow, I didn't mean to come down on SVRR, they're great guys and I'll say that I never mentioned the issues to them, but I didn't because I bought everything and it was almost a year before I began installing rail and switches outdoors because I fell behind on railroad construction/groundwork. I've wondered about calling and seeing if they knew about the problems I'd had but since I've worked through so many myself and gone to battery I hadn't followed up. But if someone is doing a simple, 100' loop of track and just a few switches they'll probably be happy. I have a lot of grade changes, 25 switches, and about 600' of track in use and in Utah where we have 100 degree temperature variances between summer and winter.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

My SVRR track is NS, little brass here and there. I run track power a lot with my MTH trains and have no problems. I have brass clamps on each joint, did solder wires across a few joints. I hardly ever clean track, unless I've run live steam.


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info, I am leaning toward using Llagas 250 nickel silver rail. Sadly though doesn't sound like they will be attending the Amherst or ECLSTS shows beginning of next year.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete is concerned, got this back from him. He is not a member here:

Thanks for the link. I read Brandon's critique and will look into what he
says. The stainless rail comes from a US manufacturer and it is not as
nicely rolled as the brass and Ni-Sil, which I buy from Germany, so I will
have to discuss with them the surface quality issue Brandon raised. We've
identified the corrosion problem as being a too corrosive flux, and we've
just changed to a less aggressive one - the stainless is type 304 ( 18/8 )
so will not corrode under most conditions. 
It is good to get feedback, even if negative, as it helps me figure out how
to improve the product. I don't subscribe to mylargescale, so perhaps you
can forward this to Brandon and thank him!

Regards,
Pete Comley
Sunset Valley Railroad LLC
(+1) 253 862 6748
www.sunsetvalleyrailroad.com


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

We use Llagas. Nickle Silver code 250.

The ties are very nice (We use their 1:20.3 Narrow Gauge ties) The ties have held up fine for over 10 years outside. We're at 8,000' in the Southwest San Juan mountains north east of Durango, Co.

The ties (at least the 1:20.3 narrow gauge version) come as 8 ties per section. And I believe 8 tie sections make up a six foot track. So 64 ties per six foot of track.

The only problematic issue is the tie sections can pop off if you or a heavy animal steps on the track.

Llagas ties slide onto the rail. So this can be a problem when say on a six foot section of track the middle ties have popped off. This means you have to 1st remove the rail section from the layout. Then you take off all ties to either the right or left of the popped off section. Next, slide back on the portion that popped off. And finally slide the ties you took off just to get to the popped off ties back on. 

And I use the term "slide" loosely. The ties are tight. Kind of tough to slide them on. And I have a wooden block jig that helps. Unfortunately this jig is no longer available...at least as far as I know.

However, even with the difficulty the ties can give you, I still think Llagas looks the best of any track producer.

Take a look at my G scale layout photo page(s) to see (link below):

Snowshoe & San Juan Model Railroad


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