# I think I know 1 thing I want to do!



## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Hey all

I have decided if I do get to do this, and Im not totally sure how it will change my decisions in my last questions post about what power to go with, but 1 thing I want is a live steam engine, again that will decide on over all cost of the thing and how much efforts involved, for example here in Australia it seems to be really hard to get things to make other things work, for example ethanol and nitro was very hard to get hold of for my RC. I know they use butane, and distilled water, the water isnt hard to get, can cost at times, but have seen threads on people making their own, but the butane Im not sure on, and if, and thats a big if I went coal burning well where do you get coal? I live not 20 meters from a old coal mine here in Ipswich but I could almost be assured its not that easy haha.

Well I guess the only question is do I go that road now, or go the electrical. That will depend on cost of either, Im pretty sure electrical is cheaper up front. Then also which one to get, a good beginners one, even a kit depending on whats involved, soldering or welding at this scale I have no experience in.

Decisions Decisions.


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne, you'll get a lot of background info on Gauge 1 live steam from Steam in the Garden magazine. In particular, this month's issue (No. 126, March/April 2013) has several good articles for the beginner, including "Choosing Your First Locomotive."

For your further live steam questions, I'd suggest posting in the "Live Steam" forum here on MLS. There's some real experts there.

As for 'sparkies' vs. live steamers -- your live steam engine is always going to demand more attention and just general 'fussiness' from the operator than electrical engines.. but then, that's sorta' the point!

best,


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm not a live steamer, but I have seen others use it. Just get the cheap butane you can buy for those portable cookers. It comes in a can about the same size as fly spray. 

You can get that stuff nice and easy from lots of sources 

Alan


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks Gary, Ive been looking for that magazine in my local area for a while, Im sure they use to sell it but seem not to now, Im not sure if its sold here in Australia. And Yeah that is the point, and totally understood it before starting out, but its obviously no where near as annoying or dangerous to the model as flying nitro engined RC planes, when fuel runs out its game over, but on the loco its not so bad. They do last a good while on a lot of steam. 

Thanks too Alan, thats really easy, one thing thats really cheap here, the butane cans, are 6 for $5 here, I have a lot of my own for camping and fishing.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne. 
You will find answers to all your questions next Sat. 
Apart from the various iterations of sparkies there will also be a healthy sprinkling of Live Steam. Gas, (butane), spirit fired (Meths) and coal, will all be there. Steve Malone will gladly walk you through the niceties of live Steam. 
You will find out where to buy track at the right price. You will find where to buy Live Steam supplies etc. 
You will find out what others think of track power DC, DCC and R/C battery power. What you will not see is battery powered DCC as the only systems made use the 900 MHz band, which is a Telco band here in OZ. The Radio DCC systems are not allowed to be sold here in OZ. Some users import the equipment, but obviously they have no practical local warranty. 
There may also be Revolution although that will only be track powered. 

Col Rough and I will likely be the only attendees that have a vested interest. Virtually everyone else is there as enthusiasts who want to enjoy themselves. 

Enjoy themselves they certainly do.


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks Tony, 

Had no doubts I would find out something about steam there as well. I only ask questions on here for more information, also on top of what you send me. I order a lot of my RC from the US, but I do have full warranty when I order them, too bad trains arent the same, I like ordering local but only reason for my RC being US is that the RC prices in comparison are ridiculously high, and half the products needed cant be bought locally with out a lot of luck and hope, Im not the only on in the RC airplane world who orders online now. 

Will take on any info I can get! Would you know where to get the Garden Railway magazine in Australia Tony?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure you get a warranty with imported Large Scale products, but, shipping anything back to the USA dealer will be at your expense. Local train hobby shops generally will not stock Large Scale items (except Bachmann stuff) because it is a very small market. There are one or two but none in Brisbane that I know of. 
Beware of dealing with one well known dealer in Sydney. 

The only reliable way to get Garden Railways magazine that I know of here in Australia is to subscribe and have them delivered direct. 
Likewise, Steam in the Garden and the English Garden Rail. 
The club will have the latest issues at the meet on Sat, including as well 16 mm Today and the OZ magazine, Rails in the Garden.


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks 

My RC supplier pays for shipping with store most of their products, and some even replaces it straight off no questions asked, I actually sent back an N gauge that failed. But the only large scale they sell is bachmann big haulers for around $360, and some other individual locos too. They are mostly an RC site.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the best in the hobby for live steam is Gordon Watson location in Australia:


Argyle Locomotive Works


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks charles


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing to think about going in: Live steam rod (as opposed to geared) locomotives are a LOT fussier about your trackwork. To borrow a Jack Benny gag, they are "Rolls-Canardlys" (Roll like a bat out of Hades downgrade, Can't hardly make it up the smallest upgrade) That's why so many gauge 1 live steam tracks are a dead level elevated loop with little scenery. 

Another is: You (usually) get what you're willing to pay for. Smaller and cheaper tend to be fussier and have more quality issues. The venerable Mamod has turned more folks OFF live steam than it has brought INTO the hobby (Yes, yes, they CAN be made to run reliably, but getting them dialed in takes more time than most folks care to give)


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have one live steamer, an accuracy ruby modified with larger cylinders, which basically makes it run slower and more controlled. It's a lot of fun, but I don't run it much. Our layout has some stiff grades on it, and as mentioned live steamers aren't crazy about grades. Also they are more work to run, which can be a good thing

You might want to consider how your layout will be run. Ours is in a semi urban location, and when we run it passers by stop and chat and sit and watch. It's what we like about it. People bring their kids, which can be trouble if they arent well behaved. The extra fussiness live steam requires--burned fingers, flames that need adjusting, water levels, steam oil--makes for trouble for us. But if our layout was situated differently, and more level, and we tended to be less distracted when we ran, live steam would be more viable. Also butane fueled live steam In cold weather is just a pain.

If our situation were different I might be more likely to go with live steam


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I can remember that at Diamondhead Steamup a contest to determine the percentage grade a live steam engine was capable of operating on. If I recall correct is was much greater than "real" locomotives challenges for the gauge one Shay that had the best incline run.

Diamondhead hill climb 2004 over 20% 

As to weather....a good butane mix and a heater valve easily made the run in mid-40's (of course alcohol and coal fired is not affected by cold):


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Wayne, 

I'm looking at a first steam locomotive too. To me, the operating characteristcs are so different that even to consider relative economics seems to make little sense - all the administering to a steam locomotive, compared to turn-it-on-and-go. Against that is that live steam is, well, real, with real steam and real sound. I think live steam makes for a more social hobby, which appeals to me. 

I've been focusing on Roundhouse and Regner kits, because they're of narrow gauge prototypes which appeal to me more than mainline guage. I don't think welding is called for in any of the kits I've looked at, though roundhouse requires forming, soldering, and painting the brass bodywork. I also have R/C avaition experience, including many self-designed and scratch-built aircraft, and the steam kits appear well within the ability of an experienced R/C modeler. You can download Roundhouse's instructions from its website. Of all the aspects of building the locomotive, painting would be the hardest for me. 

Live steam engines are definitely more expensive than LGB or other brands, but there can be a lot of money in digital control and decoders, I am finding. One savings may be in track, where it seems there is a relationship between cost and electrical reliability. Track looks to be one of the first decision points, since it's a waste to go with stainless steel track in what becomes a pure steam railway, or a waste to replace cheap aluminum track to later switch to track power. It's tempting to be able to run both, especially if you foresee hosting others on your railway. 

As I understand it, coal calls for an additional fiddling point in that you have to manually maintain the fire, whereas butane gives off pressure and is metered through the fuel regulator. Of course, coal is even more "real." Coal locomotives seem to be rare in G or 1 gauge, though. 

I think you can get digital versions of most magazines these days.


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks guys, 

Bigredone, Thanks for the help, you are probably right about the costs, I did some looking into the cost and quite surprising to me the cost of live steam in some cases, well maybe not too surprising, where as some are still quite cheap, and when I compared to similar styles in electric the up front cost isnt too much different, and most people do forget that electricity isnt free. Well Ill have to have more of a look. 

Tony, some unfortunate news, one of my major exams has been scheduled for Saturday, so wont be able to go, theres nothing I could do about not getting there and will have to wait for another event similar happens.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

What rotten luck. 
Since when have major exams been scheduled with just five days warning?


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Since I have a only a 2 week only phase to book it in, I have give 24 hours notice and the only seat left is on that day. Its not tafe so not a standard course, put it short its an IT exam that I need to be scanned, have photos taken, details given, then get locked in a room for a day with a computer and a camera aiming at me, not the first one Ive been through, world of fun.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Wayne, consider your track set-up. If it is at ground level or has grades live steam can be a pain as it is way more 'hands on'. At my age getting down there to ground level is a bother. 
Live steam has an entirely different aspect to it than electrics. It is more about fiddling and running the engine than watching trains go by.
They are the real living thing though, each with it's own characteristics. Hissing and chuffing along with a plume of steam especially on a cold morning.
If you do get a live steamer, you can use the fly spray size butane cans as mentioned at about $1 each. 
Butane will be fine for warm Queensland. Some use a butane/propane mix as butane is affected in cold climates. 
Argyle Loco in Victoria have a white plastic adapter to put on the cans to fill the butane tank as on Accucraft/Roundhouse etc. They also have steam oil. 
When importing from OS dealers, if the final cost including shipping is over $1,000 you pay 10% tax and about $50 processing fees in Australia. I hate the gov getting my train money... FTG!
Live Steamers will come up second hand on eBay Australia but not too often. Argyle Loco have some pre-loved locos listed on their website. 
Garden Railways magazine can be ordered in by your local news agent but will be slower than subscription or when the hobby shops or get it.
Depends on what you wish to spend and the prototype style but perhaps begin with an Accucraft Ruby to see if you like live steam as you won't lose much $ if it's not for you.
You will learn plenty and make the right decision if you decide to get a more expensive loco later. 
Don't ponder too much, just do it!

Andrew


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks Andrew, thats a lot of good info, gotta agree on the Gov getting hobby money, quite cruel.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Name one country in the World that does not have a $ threshold above which they charge fees and taxes on imports. We get off pretty lightly compared to the UK for example.


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah thats true


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 13 Feb 2013 02:44 PM 
Name one country in the World that does not have a $ threshold above which they charge fees and taxes on imports. We get off pretty lightly compared to the UK for example. I wondered how many goats the Zimbabwe government would want when importing model trains. Apparently they now use US dollars and charge 15%.
When importing from England the honest dealers usually remove their 20% VAT tax.
If I send silver to England as a gift the recipient pays 20% tax on spot price.
Makes it hard for dealers in Australia to compete with customers who import under $1,000 as dealers have to charge 10% GST on everything they sell. 
Sometimes trains worth thousands of dollars go under the radar with customs in Australia and makes me very happy. So not so bad here I guess. 

Andrew


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

What I would like to know is, how come the Brits can afford to inspect and charge taxes etc on all packets/parcels over what is it? GBP14, whilst it costs our customs more to inspect and collect tax on parcels under A$1,000 than the tax received would be? 
Something fishy somewhere and it isn't party political as those rules have been in since the last lot of incompetents were "running" this country and it will not be changing any time soon.


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Wayne, You can subscribe to *Steam in the Garden*[/i] *here*. Since you are Down Under, the postage can be a bit pricy. Perhaps the *Digital Edition* might be more cost effective.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys down under take it on the chin with shipping, too. It costs almost exactly TWICE as much to ship something from the US to Oz as it would for you to send it back.... I guess the airplanes use less fuel coming back?


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks Tom 

Im not sure Mik, like ive said, a lot of the times, say to order a 1.20 4 stroke airplane engine from aus could be well up over a $1000, not sure why in my local area its always more though...but anyway, ordering from US hobby stores even with shipping ends up being far less, especially when using discounts when signed up, or buying bulk amounts, such as an airplane kit, batteries or receivers. But I was super surprised yesterday when I went to find some more passenger cars for my N scale layout, my normal hobby store never has any in stock, the ones I want, so I looked on ebay, the prices of the rolling stock, locos, and were really good, the cars i wanted $8 au, cheapest Ive found, but the shipping was $45! I didnt even bother looking where from, my LHS can be really expensive, as said my local area always is, even computers are double in brisbane it's self, so the cost of fuel running in is worth it, so I think I may end up having to go to LHS. Oh and Ipswich has only 1 hobby store, its been a family business since 1890 something, but they have never had competition, no one else has ever opened a hobby store in the entire district so that has them not worry about prices, and yeah the direct line of sons still own it, and they now have their daughters in it, thats kinda amazing i think.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By Mik on 14 Feb 2013 10:17 AM 
You guys down under take it on the chin with shipping, too. It costs almost exactly TWICE as much to ship something from the US to Oz as it would for you to send it back.... I guess the airplanes use less fuel coming back? Mik 

From what I have experienced it is the other way around. Maybe because the planes use more fuel to fly 'up' the map to the USA. ;-) 
Smaller parcels express (not registered) from USA is about $25. USPS Priority Mail International (registered) about $45 and up. Usually more like $65 though. Locomotives $100-$200. A heavy Accucraft in it's ginormous box needs to come via Fedex etc. Can be $300 or so. They make LGB loco size boxes seem like a bargain.
To send anything back to the USA it costs at least $65. We pay an extra $9 for it to be inspected because of the 'terrorist threat'. 
I have never sent large items back to the USA so you could be correct there.
Shipping is the killer here especially on single items. I used to like surface shipping and wait 2-3 months but that is no longer available for small parcels. 
It still works out cheaper to purchase OS than purchasing retail here, some items only marginally though. 
Our retailers barely keep any stock in Large Scale, maybe just some of the latest Bachmann items as we have a distributor here. 
Some just order online as requested as anyone could and apply their expected mark-up. So it just doesn't happen.
We only represent perhaps 2% of the world market so there is no real supply volume for serious dealers to exist. 
One merchant here in Australia gave it a serious go and went to a lot of promotional effort but at the end of the day most people quibble even over a few $ and I don't like being 'told' who I have to buy off.
The shipping companies are now making the profit that small retailers used to before everything went global. 

Andrew


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

as a new guy to live steam some three or four years ago, 
and being lover of lGB 

i purchased an Aster/LGB Frank S, NOS 
and a somewhat used roundhouse sandy river 

both butane , 

im a busy guy as a lawyer 

so electircs are convenient and popular -run em inside, etc-"im ready to play and so is the engine"-simple as turning on the light switch 
also, electrics are so common, repairs and parts are easy as would be re-sale (if that is a consideration) -sometimes half an hour or so is all the time im gonna have on a weekend to play trains

otoh 
steam-my thoughts 
first the steam, the sound, the smells, and mental satisfaction of having a real engine, working, and you needing to respond to grades (a BIG DEAL) etc , ie its something you have to manage-thats the fun

second-the ceremony of cleaning, lubing , tightening everything pre-run, watering up, fueling up, putting in steam oil, lighting up (hope its not too windy) batteries in the Rc and receiver, etc 
and cleaning up again-it takes me no less than fifteen minutes to get ready to light it up-no big deal-but its fifteen minutes 

the other thing, is , while i am fairly mechanical, and can repair electric trains, etc-steam is a bit more complicated, and there are aspects i cannot do, such as boiler repair, or anything like machinging-not that i couldnt learn and get the tools, just right now, i cant 

so this is a consdieration, but if you get one in good order , it really isnt an issue 

think Old Jag, or, new BMW in terms of headache/fuss (and yes i do have the Leland headache LOL)

i think live steam and electric are fairly different in term s of how one interacts and plays-at least for me- other than both being model trains-i have patience, but not always the time, or inclinatoin to %$(*& around -nor do i always wish to do so in the rain, snow, freezing cold messing with a lighter and a balky light up or sticky fuel valve -otoh, theres something unique and 'organic' and alive about a live steam loco-nothing like it


finally, while all have their own thoughts-i love RC and fitted it to my frank s-due to the need to adjust for grades-i love hands on-but not having to try and catch something on fast fly is great-they are way too pricey to fly off a curve 
i would highly recommend one IF you dont have a dead flat run-i havev a 1-2% and the difference running light up versus down is often....heart stopping-add a consist and it gets even more exciting 

if you like shays, this is less an issue

coal, as you likely know, is entirely more complex-not only the grate and ability of the boiler etc to take coal, but also more complicated to fire and run 
and not all coal is clean burning, which , as ignorant as i am, is likely a consideration not only for maintenance but also easy of lighting and other points too, like smell-ie how much sulfer etc 

i would have one in a minute, but at $4-6 K US for the ones ive seen, i am still thinking about it, 

i would say, if you decide to go live steam, go for a quality one with good reviews and parts availability, and try to find a mentor or club, especially if you go for a complex kit 

some of the high end asters seem truly like minature real locos, with the same level or technical aspect and adjustments 

imho, some of the starter locos may be more likely to turn you off or simply require fine tuning that you may not be able to muster as a new steamer 

its as simple as making up your mind and giving it a go-jump right in-i did, and it all worked out fine and i learned a bit
in fact some of the guys here helped me when i had need



live steam is wonderful


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I used to sell live steam engine kits (stationary) I had a supplier in Oz for a while, and several great repeat customers. 

The supplier could send me two bronze casting sets for the same shipping price I could send a buyer a single engine. 

The funny thing was, no matter how ridiculous I thought the shipping cost was the fellows in Oz, NZ, Japan, etc always thanked me for being willing to sell to them. 

While my US customers would raise a stink over as little as 50c 

I always sorta wondered at folks who spend $4-6K or more for a ittle bitty steam toy, tho.

I got this for $5k back when I had munny.... http://www.the-ashpit.com/mik/20th.html
at least it can haul my lard butt around.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

well mik im with you, no mummy to pay the bills, and im the dad 
and i too think $4-6 K is a lot 
but...... 

it only comes down to what you can afford 

$15 wine or 150 
desinger jeans or levis 
everyone 'prioritizes'-its often nothing other than i can so i will 

theres always somone with more and someone with less


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I sometimes wonder about my sanity with what I've spent over the years on my train collection, much of which is pristine museum models. 
It is about equivalent to what many people spend on a luxury car to keep up with the Joneses. 

Andrew


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## Exile182 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys, sorry I havent been on to reply, I had to put my head into the studies, but as a bonus I passed, so I can now move on. I dont want to bring up and issues, but yeah the cost some times can take the breath away, I went looking last night as some second hand electric and live steam engines online, I was quite taken aback at some of the prices, most cost more then my large scale planes and even my fully carbon fiber world champion series racing 4wd buggy. Not for any reason of politics, but most dont have as much mechanical or electronics as those, It must just be in the numbers of people. I actually have to admit theres a big price change in the N scale area as well, I was duped by bachmann when first starting out to buy there new "mark II" couplers to replace the rapido, they said yes they just swap out, I tried and failed, but recently wanting to try again I finally found a form for N scale that showed proof I was actually meant to replace the whole truck on each rolling stock and loco, which meant my big bulk buy of couplers were a waste 2 years ago, but any more to the point, looking at trucks and then additonal rolling stock, the prices have gone up quite a lot in 2 years. And Ebay for some reason has good pricing on N locos and rolling stock but for some reason nearly all of them charge $5 for a car, but charge $50 for shipping..... which I find crazy because tower has the same products for $2 more and $10 shipping, and the shipping price doesnt change until I have ordered a good 20 cars. 

I guess all it comes down to is, look first and research, I think nothing worse then buying something for so much, then seeing it cheaper a week later.


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