# ASTER S2.......what's next



## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Know that this wonderfull engine has been put into production, know whats next. I know that it might be too late, maybe Hans already decided what would be the next locomotive. But if not, why not send him more ideas. For me personally, i would like to see another big engine, like the BIG BOY or the H8 Alleghenny. I would suggest the T1 4-4-4-4 or the Class A Norfolk $ Western 2-6-6-4. Maybe we could be on time to make suggestions.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I for one would actually like to see a smaller engine in the offering. Like for example the NCY #999


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think it's about how much people have in there pocket, how many people would pay $8-12000 for a loco?


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

The T1 would be interesting, or a 1930s art deco streamlining


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The "General" (4-4-0) followed by the "Texas" (4-4-0) 
Maybe the "Jupiter" (C.P. 60) and the "U.P. 119" (the 4-4-0's at the Promontory, Utah "Golden Spike" ceremony). 

All standard gauge locomotives in 1:32 scale(!).


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Jim, any one of those Streamliners would be VERY VERY cool. I would imagine the cost for a 4-4-0 high stepping Atlantic would b down under $5k. Have to go on a plasma selling binge if they do something bigger though. A nice streamline B&O presidental pacific, NYC, or almost anything from the midwest streamlining efforts.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

The Big Boy has been done, twice, and the Allegheny once.  That's it, I would imagine.  The AD60, a HUGE loco with a HUGE price tag, is on the way, and Aster has not had a small locomotive, for those who are not millionnaires, for quite a while.

How about a USRA 2-8-0?

tac
ww.ovgrs.org


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Lots of folks here wouldn't think twice at those prices for a new even BIGGER loco.

What we need is smaller, but it seems that Aster is leaving that to Accucraft these days..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

tac, yes, the idea of building a smaller Aster loco kit is very exciting. in the mean time, I could try and save up for an S-12  0-6-0 switcher.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, I guess there is room for smaller or larger locomotives. Aster in some years have done 2,3 or 4 locomotives for different markets. As long as the models , big or small, are done the Aster way, there will be plenty to satisfy everybody.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Although there are things that I personally would rather see produced (but won't hold my breath for), it seems to me that a USRA Pacific would be an obvious choice. Over the years they've been done by at least one manufacturer in each of the smaller scales (there have been at least half a dozen of them in HO) but nobody has offered a gauge one version that I know of, not even as a 1:29 sparky. The appeal is of course that it's a generic mid-sized passenger engine that was used by several different prototype roads. It would also share a lot of parts in common with the USRA Mikado that Aster has already done, which would presumably lower the development cost.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I just bought a used Aster 0-4-2  Thunderbolt and I love it, the addition of a blower to the model (only ran butane engines beforehand) adds alot.

I would love a small aster loco with a axel pump of course.
Almost everything the larger ones have but small.

- Andrew


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

From the original RailRoad Tycoon game (I still think was the most fun of all of them) 

Here is the Original Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon's manual that had some good information on the different engine types even though the graphics are simple. 
Scroll through this pdf to page 111 
www.diablosport.com/old/RAILSDX.PDF

Full game, with some fudging, you can get ti to work on windows XP with the dosbox app included 
www.diablosport.com/old/SetupRailroadTycoon.exe

Just to show im not pirating, they made RR Tycoon freeware 
www.downloadsquad.com/2006/12/08/sid-meiers-railroad-tycoon-now-freeware-todays-time-waster/

-andrew


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Man I can't tell you how many mornings I dragged my a$$ to work after staying up ALL night with that game!!! That was one of the best games ever. RT2 was ok, I loved the grafics update, the game play was just a notch below though


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

I would love to see a PRR M1a. 

The Y-6b, would be neat (and huge) also. If I remeber correctly, the prototype locos tractive effort even beats out the Big Boy.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe its time for a geared loco and I do not mean like a Lion!


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

You're right Dave, the Y6b plus a lot of other loco's were more powerful than the Big Boy. 
Big Boy was only a Big Boy on UP rails after that, ...............................   on DM&IR their 2-8-8-4 was heavier and more powerful for a start.
Though it was the longest and highest apparently.


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## greyhound (Jan 4, 2008)

bigger is better.................
That is why I love American Steam Locomotives. Big Boy and Allegheny are through - so what can fill the gap: a 4-6-6-4 Challenger preferable UP or Northern Pacific. Also an option for all who have missed the Big Boy.

Jo


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 02/15/2008 3:09 PM
Maybe its time for a geared loco and I do not mean like a Lion!


Bruce,
  I agree!  A Heisler would be top on my list.  Who ever is first, Aster, Accucraft or Catatonk  has my order.  I know a lot of us have been waiting for this locomotive to be produced again by someone.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

PRR M1a but any Mountain would be great!  Not too big, price would be around the last too productions.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm... they haven't done the UP 8444 yet - wonder why; it's an obvious seller.


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

I have send all these suggestions to Hans and some other Aster Dealers. Lets see what happens.


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## JWLaRue (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd like to see Aster come out with an updated version of the PRR K4s, alcohol fired this time.

-Jeff


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, apparently, they let me know that the UP 8444 is high up on the list of possibilities.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

N&W J Class 611 gets my vote and an offer to put down a deposit now. But rumor has it that Hans doesn't like streamliners......

The bigger challenge is what comes after the 9F from Aster UK. Andrew tells me this was one of most successful yet and it's not immediately obvious what he can do to top it. I'd vote for the steamlined LMS 6220 Coronation.....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd  go for the J 611.  If there was a small engine I would like the PRR D16B 4-4-0  and secondly 4-4-0 INYO.  So, many possible but given that there has not been a Mountain made in live steam that still get my first vote.


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

The bigger challenge is what comes after the 9F from Aster UK. Andrew tells me this was one of most successful yet and it's not immediately obvious what he can do to top it. I'd vote for the steamlined LMS 6220 Coronation.....

Well Robert please don't worry about the next UK Aster, we have plenty to go at! 
Choosing a prototype from the UK is easier than the USA mainly because we are a small country and most locomotives are known and appreciated widely. In the days of steam the BR 9F was seen all over the UK; the Bulleid was all over the southern England and Flying Scotsman was (and still is) a universal icon of steam.  We have by comparison with the US, many preserved locomotives and railways and enjoying the past is a National obsession.  I suspect that the N&W J Class 611 was only seen on the Norfolk & Western system and would not appeal to everyone. Just my 2 cents.

The other aspect which has added to the success with the 9F is the continuous technical improvement and innovation Aster are applying to successive models. The 9F features Piston Valves and is proving very reliable. You will also notice changes to wheels, coupling rods etc all of which enhance appearance and reliability.

Aster cannot beat the Chinese competition on price but they can beat them on quality,reliability and technical innovation - features which our customers continue to appreciate. While I'm in the UK Aster driving seat we will keep 'em coming!

Andrew


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to show you all that I really am NOT biased in any way toward CN/US-style stuff, here is a clip from Youtube of MY proposal for the next BRITISH-outline steam locomotive - hot on the heels of the impending mainline steam-up of the UK's first full-size Pacific express passenger locomotive for over 50 years - 'Tornado'.

Just to show what you are all missing, the clip shows the virtually-identical A. H. Peppercorn-designed A2 Pacific 'Blue Peter' double-heading with 'Sir Nigel Gresley'.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVAV6MwUac 

I predict an upsurge in demand from lovers of UK steam of ALL scales for a model of this remarkable and brand-new locomotive...the long-gone and much-missed Trix/Lilliput 'Peppercorn' values will go out of the window.   

tac
www.ovgrs.org

PS - the FS tender would also serve for the 'Tornado'.....that'll save some money on development


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## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac,
That's a terrific video. I love the sounds. Thanks.....


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, finally, i got word that if we come up with a good fund, around $500,000 usd, then we can choose which locomotive we would like to do. Only if many of us, like 50 at least, that could agree on the same locomotive, otherwise we all have to wait for what Aster will bring us. If many of us would agree on a specific locomotive, at $10,000 per person, and if i like the locomotive, I put my $10,000 down. Thinking on a big engine, if they sell 100 locomotives at $15,000, then we can all participate in some profit, too.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

$15k for a big Aster?  Dang, I thought $7k for the S2 was expensive.  Gonna have to pass on them.  Where is the medium sized Aster locos that don't require a 2nd mortgage?  Something in the $4.5k range would be really sweet.

I think there are some incredible streamlined locos out there. One of my faves would be the B&O Presidential, Royal Blue.  Granted, the Royal Blue wouldn't be in the $4k range. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_bo_rb.jpg

Here are a few links to a variety of US Streamliners. 

 http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html 
 http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam3.html


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By privero on 02/18/2008 2:26 PM
Well, finally, i got word that if we come up with a good fund, around $500,000 usd, then we can choose which locomotive we would like to do. Only if many of us, like 50 at least, that could agree on the same locomotive, otherwise we all have to wait for what Aster will bring us. If many of us would agree on a specific locomotive, at $10,000 per person, and if i like the locomotive, I put my $10,000 down. Thinking on a big engine, if they sell 100 locomotives at $15,000, then we can all participate in some profit, too.


I'll watch this with a great lack of interest, thank you./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif  Being as how it's the USA and Mexico, there are without doubt probably thousands of you with $15,000 spare to cough up for a model, but finding even fifty who all want the same one might be tricky..

I was going to explain the bit in middle, between thinking what a nice big model might be, and selling it, but then I realised that there are professionals who do this all the time./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif

Messrs Schwuyler and Pullen, Pantage and David M-K, please step up to the plate. 

tac
www.ovgrs.org

PS - I would only spend my children's inheritance on an SP&S Northern #700, a locomotive that actually runs, rather than one that holds down a slab of concrete to stop it blowing away in them fierce Montana winds.../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

The idea behind triyng to make a group of people is simple, a that is to instead of waiting 3, 5, 10 years and maybe more for a particular engine to come up, why not get together a group and fund the project. I am not a millionaire, but if a want something i can always sell a few things ( like i have done) that i do not need any more and second, beg for payments for an specific Aster engine i would like to have but do not have all the money at the time. 

Like Tac mention, is tricky but not impossible. By the way Cape Code Steam, the streamliners are beautifull and Tac your Northern #700 does look very nice too.


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi guys
 
I think its time to spell out a few facts that seem to be forgotten in this thread.
 
Mr Hans Huwyler is the sole authorised distributor of Aster products in North America. I am sure Hans will listen to any sensible suggestions regarding future prototypes for the US and Canada, although I suspect he is busy getting everything just right for the upcoming GN S2!
 
If a group think they are going to get together to sponsor a loco then I can tell them they are mistaken. It won’t happen!   If a group wants to work with Hans to underwrite the costs of another US prototype then he may be willing to listen and discuss possibilities. But the decision of what Aster makes for a particular market is the responsibility of the Distributor. In the US & Canada that is Hans. 

Hope that is clear.

AsterUK


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Yo privero, as far as #700 is concerned, let's just say I'm biased  It would also only be about 3mm shorter than the Aster GS4.

Best wishes from yUK

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

I hope Hans reads all the messages on this topic.

I would like to see another run of the Jumbo.  I was working up to buying a Jumbo kit when they sold out.

Also, I would like to seen another run of the Schools.

As you can tell, I prefer the smaller (and cheaper) engines.  I do love to watch the big engines run.  I never miss Diamondhead so I can see the engines I will never have and I am lucky to live in Houston so I can watch Steve Speck and Caleb Roberts operate their big engines.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

I agree about the Jumbo. That was my girlfriend's favorite engine. She is partial to the British steam... 

In about one more month the weather will break, then all the materials come out of storage to begin construction. We are building a raised outdoor HO track to run our Live Steam Mallard. So far we have five teak cars, with another six currently bidding on. The deck will be wide enough for phase II, a 45mm track for Ruby size engines as well. 

I hope this will allow for a decent steam fix, until such time an affordable (relative, I understand) Aster loco is released. 

Come on folks, repeat after me, "Streamlined Atlantic, or the B&O Royal Blue"


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

New rumor....UP 844


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr Steam - by a happy coincidence, your H0 and 45mm track is exactly what WE are going to be doing over  here!

I have a lot of US/Can H0 stuff and like to run long passenger trains, and they look a bit odd on my local British railway club trackage - Sunset Models #700 plus fourteen cars trundling through the post-war English countryside..../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

Also have a nice collection 0n3 Bachmann stuff too...

Best wishes

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

A rerun of the K4 or Hudson only this time spirit fired. If that's not to be the Southern PS4 would would be my choice.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

ALL 

Glad to see so many voting for the production of either: 

1.. $12,000 to $25,000 mantle queens that the people suggesting them would be unlikely to purchase. (I can see that Y6b pulling 85 D&RGW 3000 class box cars). 
2.. Small American locomotives ( 4-4-0, 2-8-0 ) that the imporeter has no interest in. 
3.. Small geared locomotives that the US Aster importer has no interest in. 

Regarding Kent's comment on an Aster costing less than $ 5,000, not likely to be seen again. As to the USRA Pacific; you need to buy up the rest of the Mikados first. They got bit one that and it won't happen to them again. I know how many people pleasded at DH with Mr Inoue for a moderately priced locomotive of USRA design. I also know how many of those same people never bought one. 


You want a real vote. Send Hans $2,000 with your request. It is his money you are risking, not yours. 

I would like a PRR J1a 2-10-4, but as a betting man, I will guess that the "Next ONE" is an UP FEF-3, now that UP doesn't want half the profit from every engine sold(sorry for the moderate exaggeration). If you are lucky it will be available in Portland Rose Greyhound colors. Price $7200-$7400 for the kit, depending on the yen conversion. 

Just my usual, uninformed, highly biased opinion. No facts were used in the production of this email, other than the part about people not buying the Mikado. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, thanks for your input. Regarding the Mikados, what is the price for a kit on that, any idea?


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

All the Green Mikados went early. My Black Mikado is serial 257/260. Seems like most were sold. A few may still be available but the Mike is hardly a failure.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Green Mike just sold on ebay last week, I believe around $4.5 K.  Southern Steam Trains indicates two available:
http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/inventory.htm


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

The black Mikados are sold for about $3800 usd KIT and about $4500 usd RTR. The next Aster engine, it is said, is the UP 844 (possibility).  I think they are better looking engines out there. I have send a lot of suggestions to Hans but will see later on.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Another $7000 locomotive we don't need...

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

What is it with everybody? Every time there is a discussion about which locomotive should be produced next, it comes down to another Northern. There are other engines to model other than a 4-8-4. There has been a couple of suggestions of a 2-10-4 Texas, that would be nice especially if there was the option to have it as a Selkirk also, but we know that will not happen.
 
Anyway, I guess what I am saying is, let’s try for something different. Forget wanting another run of the Big Boy, as Jim said most of you that said it would be nice as you missed your chance on the first one wouldn’t buy it anyway. You had a second chance on the Daylight from Accucraft, did you buy one, there’s still some left. There are still some of the Aster Mikado’s left, why aren’t you buying these before you miss your chance and want Aster to rerun it. The guy that wanted the Schools to be rerun should just look; they still come on the market new in the original box why don’t you buy one of those.
 
The idea of running the same engines again only fired by alcohol instead of butane is crazy. Next you will want the Mikado to be run again but butane fired. I guess that’s the reason the schools should be rerun, so it can be butane fired.
 
I’m sorry, I get going on this type of subject and all it causes is for my medication expenses to go up. Thankfully Hans and Andrew are both smart businessmen and have been able to choose the correct engines to have Aster build.
 
So, send me your deposit for the Great Northern S2 as soon as possible so you don’t miss out and have to ask Aster to rerun it again in the future. 
 
To use a little of Jim’s salutation (sorry Jim) “Just my usual highly biased opinion.”


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

I know this will never happen, but to me this is a beautiful locomotive (Russian P-36):

1stclass.mylargescale.com/BobPope/P36-0120_20060401_014.jpg

Bob (hey, at least I posted a steam locomotive!)

_(Image exceeds 640px in width, changed to link, SteveC mod)_


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02/16/2008 5:13 AM
PRR M1a but any Mountain would be great!  Not too big, price would be around the last too productions.

Dan
You are correct, given I already have two Northern's would be good to have Aster make an offer other than 4-8-4.

As I stated prior, my desire would be for a Mountain given:


The "Mountain" 4-8-2 was a fast dual-service locomotive that was bought by many railroads in need of more motive power for the ever increasing weight of passenger trains and to compete for fast freight.


In North America 41 railroads bought or built 2,204 "Mountain" Locomotives. The New York Central and the Pennsylvania Railroad used a combined total of 901 or 41% of the total. The first one built was C&O number 316, in 1911, and the last one built was B&O number 5594, in 1948.


The 4-8-2 was the locomotive that demonstrated the value of combining eight coupled high drivers with the speed potential of the leading four wheel truck. 

The selling potential was proven with the Fine Arts electric offering along with the popularity among the various railroads.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Dan 

LOOK!! Bob posted a picture of ANOTHER 4-8-4!!! Whahoo!! Great looking engine. 

Let me fuel the fire some more. 

When Hans decided to do the Berkshire, it came out as NKP 779 only. Why? Because to do even one other variant, the C&O Kanawha would have boosted the base price for every engine at least $500 (Aster Japan math). So when folks talk to me about doing the C&O T1 / PRR J1/J1a 2-10-4 to get the production numbers up, I have to laugh. Two different tenders that would cost arond $1500 by themselves (remember the German "bathtub" is at least $1000); different boiler fronts and cabs, different appliances like pumps, etc. Having two variants in the current market would boost the price by $800 to $1000 for EVERY engine. That is NO bargain. Oh, that's right; Aster and bargain (in the traditional sense) seldom appear in the same sentence. That does not mean they are not a good value. 

Dan asks why all the Northerns (4-8-4) locomotives. I would guess because it was , in the late steam era, the most common dual service locomotive. That means a modeler can use it for either freight or passenger trains, it has a wheel base that will fit on most live steam gauge 1 layouts. A Texas (2-10-4) starts to push the limits of 10 foot radius curves and #8 switches. I don't believe that layouts with radiuses like my IE&W Ry and Pete Comley's outside Seattle are that common yet. I think that 12 -14 foot radius is probably much more common, and fast running with a 10 coupled loco would require very stable track work. 

Well known and mostly good looking 4-8-4s 
1.. SP GS-1/4 Daylight / WP GS-6 
2.. NYC Niagra 
3.. B&M R-1 
4.. C&O Greenbriar (610) 
5.. D&LW Pocono 
6.. RF&P Governer (I think) 
7.. UP FEF-1/2/3 
8.. ATSF various classes 
9.. NP ... the original 4-8-4s 
10.. MILW and SP&S engines are better known in restoration, but great looking 
11.. PRR NEVER had a 4-8-4 

I think a beautiful "non selling" loco is the Central Vermont 2-10-4 with the Vandy tender. It is the smallest Texas type ever built. It would look great and fit on every ones track, but probably never sell more than 15-20 engines max. So it is a non-starter as a commercial product. Too bad. 

If you want a "bargain" larger loco right now, sign up for one of Accucraft's SP F4/F5 2-10-2 dual service ewngines with the Vanderbilt tender. I know they only ran on the Coast Line and were never coal fired. It is one of California native Cliff's favorite engines, so I am sure it will be as accurate as is reasonably possible. At less than $4000, it is about the price of an Aster Mikado kit. Everyone that got a Cab Forward should have one as a pusher for their long reefer blocks. Reserve by the end of March. 

Dan, if you want to see a Selkirk, contact Peter Trounce and ask how far he has gotten on his scratch built one. I think they are a beautiful loco, but would they sell better than the Royal Hudson? 

Cheers 

Jim


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Jim, I know trying to make a single engine into several different models is a nonstarter as far as cost. Like I said in my last post “a 2-10-4 Texas would be nice especially if there was the option to have it as a Selkirk also, but we know that will not happen”. Other people get to wish for what they want so I thought I would try.
 
As far as a 10-coupled engine going around a 10ft radius, this seems to be the standard for Aster; the 9F can do it, so why not a Texas? Yes the 2-10-2 that Accucraft is coming out with is a deal and will be different.
 
I don’t understand why the Central Vermont 2-10-4 with the Vandy tender would be a non-seller. I must admit I had to look it up but I don’t know many East Coast engines but it looks like a nice engine.
 
So what you’re saying Jim is that we are stuck with Northern type engines because that’s what was the norm in North America.


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 02/20/2008 8:19 PM

Let me fuel the fire some more. 

When Hans decided to do the Berkshire, it came out as NKP 779 only. Why? Because to do even one other variant, the C&O Kanawha would have boosted the base price for every engine at least $500 (Aster Japan math). So when folks talk to me about doing the C&O T1 / PRR J1/J1a 2-10-4 to get the production numbers up, I have to laugh. Two different tenders that would cost arond $1500 by themselves (remember the German "bathtub" is at least $1000); different boiler fronts and cabs, different appliances like pumps, etc. Having two variants in the current market would boost the price by $800 to $1000 for EVERY engine. That is NO bargain. Oh, that's right; Aster and bargain (in the traditional sense) seldom appear in the same sentence. That does not mean they are not a good value. 

Jim

______________________________________________________


Jim:
Bargain Aster - an oxymoron /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif  (Just kidding !)


IMHO, (as you described above) if the wished for Aster, in the $7-$8K, even $9K range, then what's ~10-15% more for the options so it appeals to enough buyers to make the project a go?   Maybe too cold, but if you can buy an $8K Aster you can buy an $8.5K Aster.

Looking at run quantities it looks like min. is ~100-150 units or more.  Pick a loco that was one of the most widely produced prototypes vs satisfying everyone's pet. Seems Aster, Hans or someone else bites at the project w/the widest appeal.  (I'm not up on all the midwest or eastern RR history so if one or more of the above list or suggestions fits the description I missed it.  And if most widely produced doesn't equal appeal, I missed that too.)  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

Poor parallel but just for perspective: like buying a car for $30K and skimping on $1K extra for the upgraded audio; 80%/ 4yrs = $20/mo. difference (not that a bank would finance an Aster Loco./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif&160" align="absMiddle" border="0" src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wink.gif" />


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Steam8hack 

You would think that people would not balk at a 10% "kicker" to get a specific prototype, but apparently there are some $$ thresholds that are hard to cross. Right now it seems like $7k is some majic number. I have no explanation. Also, remember that the Aster importer, be it Hans or Andrew, has to commit to not only funding the project development, they have to agree to purchase a significant portion of the production. Theswe gentlement understand the enconomic realities of these risk equations far better than I, and I would not care to try to second guess them. 

Dan P, I don't think we are "stuck" with 4-8-4s, I was just trying to show that there are lots of them. I noticed I left off the N&W J class (600-614), but many think its streamlining puts it in the "uninteresting" category; not enough do-dads hanging off the locomotive. Regarding the effective rigid wheelbase of an American 2-10-4 vs the BR 9F 2-10-0; I didn't actually measure it, but it is probably no more than the Mikado. As near as I can tell, the Aster BR86 2-8-2T has the longest "effective" rigid wheelbase of any engine I have seen. Because it has little side play in the drivers, it is "longer" than the Daylight. I guess we could have working lateral motion devices on the center drivers (like the prototype). I said "non-seller" on the CV 2-10-4 becuse it was unique to the Central Vermont and can't masquerade as anything else. I would guess most people only know the CV as a part of the old Canadian National Ry system, and would be unfamiliar with its motive power. As it was, because of light bridges and other restrictions, it could only operate as far south as Bellows Falls, VT, so it lived on a piece of railroad less than 240 miles long (Montreal QC to Belows Falls). I lived in Amherst MA as a kid at the end of steam and only saw 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s on the south end of the CV. 

If we want to push the UP theme, how about a 4-10-2 with the three cylinders and Gresley conjugated valve gear on the pilot deck. Or maybe do the SP 4-12-2. Now there is a real looong loco. I noticed the PRR guys did not ask for a moderate sized engine like the H10 2-8-0. It has a heafty boiler that would make enough steam to pull a decent freight train. Just another misguided thought. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim et al - The BR 9F has prototypically flangeless centre drivers - hence its ability to negotiate rather tighter curves than a US-10-coupled loco./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like another fun engine like the lion, jumbo, sterling silver (big drive wheel = fun). 
They should have 2 lines, the have fun don't worry about hurting it line(less money) and the shelf queen, bite your nails, beautiful line (more money). 

You need to transition train guys into the more expensive engines, like how roller coaster parks work, small to big. Most of us started with a ruby or the like, it is what fueled the fire. 
I started in live steam only 2 years ago, started with a ruby, now I have a ruby, shay #2 and a lion. I mostly steam the lion atm. I have heard people say things like "out of my big engines I play with the small one the most" 
But, money fuels the fire, I don't know the profit margins on each engine. Hobby importers have to pay the rent, I just want our hobby to grow! 

-Andrew


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

I do not currently have a live steam engine but I am getting my Accucraft Mogul back after selling it which I should have never done.  What about a PRR E6 4-4-2?  It is a smaller engine but would still appeal to many people.
Brian


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Andrew 

You want "cute", relatively inexpensive, fun to modify, fun to run? Don't look to Aster (at least right now). Look at Regner with the Konrad, Willi, and Vincent; each only a few hundred bucks. Want a kit, build the Lumberjack. Don't remember exactly, but in the $1000 range. Ken at BAQS Train Dept carries almost all the Regner in stock for delivery. Look at some of the Accucraft UK offerings, all available through your local dealer. Look at the most recent Steam In The Garden for pictures of the most recent Regner bash contest. I think there are photos of Tom Bowdler's winning entry in the "Scranton 2008" topic thread on this forum. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I like aster's stuff, maybe im looking small just because I am getting my life on track (looking for a house) and cant think about 5k+ engines for a good 3-4 years lol
I do like the the regners though. I was just thrilled about my aster lion, pushing me for another aster.

-Andrew


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

Is there any conclusion to all this? After 50 plus answers, the 2 things that I see that are clear are, that we Aster fans are divided by small, middle or big engines as the next locomotive from Aster, and that for some reason some Aster Dealers and some other users get upset if we discuss ideas of possible locomotives.  

Like i mention before, all of these petisions  have been send to Hans and lets see from there what will be their decision. I would have like that if there so many Aster clients, why not oppenly ask for ideas and narrow down to very few options, and why not, to all those with interest, ask for a deposit.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a small Aster on E Bay right now.  Item number: 190199734090  I have seen one of these run at my house and they are sweet little engines.


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

I want one of these in 1/32 http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/1430653842/ 

Scott


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

I want one of these: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/1430653842/  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif  in 1/32.

Scott (Who else!?)


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

I agree, that would make the ultimate live diesel set right there.  Then grab 100 or so AMS box cars when they are released.  Add to them a bunch of gondolas, flatcars, tankers, and some piggy back cars.  Did I forget anything?


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## Garry Paine (Jan 2, 2008)

The X-18 is a gas turbine; another challenge!

Garrett


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr privero- you keep mentioning petitions to Mr Schwuyler - what petitions are these?  I have not seen any evidence of petitions being circulated anywhere with regard to the next American loco, unless, of course, it is a small elistist bunch of folks, out of the mainstream of the common herd like me, and who are carrying out the petition on their own agenda?

This is getting farcical, now.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Terry,  just what I always wanted,  a Aster diesel............/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Just have this turn a generator and you've got a live gas turbine locomotive. At $6,000 for the engine, even I'm not that crazy, 

http://wrenturbines.co.uk/product.php?pid=7 

Bob


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

No, Tac, the petition I am refering too, is a compilation of everything that has been mention on this forum, from small engines to the big engines, etc. I have send Hans an and other Aster Dealers a list of all the engines. Hopefully they can take one of these suggestions.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I am an Aster dealer and have been for close to 18 years, you didn't sent anything to me.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Scott 

Dizeasel Guy is trying to hijack the thread? 
How many Big Blow turbines did Wada-san make in O scale? What was the price? 
Like I said at Scranton, if it was 1:32; $10,000 for the Ajin brass shells, and $15,000 for everything else. ONLY $25,000 each. 

BTW the locomotive number is 18. The X (as in X-18) is the UP designation for Train Number Extra 18. If it was a scheduled train like #29 (hypothetical number), then the number boards would have just had "29", regardless of the engine number. This is not current practice on the UP. 
Sorry for the digression. 

If you look on one of the other forums you will find someone bashing an early UP turbine with 1:29 Aristo FA shells. Looks pretty neet, but that Wren turbine would melt it in about 90 seconds. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

While I think anyone should like what ever type of engine that they want too........... even loud, smoke belching, model diesels. But why are they talked about on the "Live Steam" forum?? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve S. on 02/21/2008 10:35 PM
While I think anyone should like what ever type of engine that they want too........... even loud, smoke belching, model diesels. But why are they talked about on the "Live Steam" forum?? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif

Perhaps cause there isn't a live diesel forum  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif  YET...?!!


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The Live Steam portion of Garden Railroading seems to be more about the realistic form of motive power instead of the realistic appearance of the shell of the locomotives. i.e.: how many electric "Ruby", "Konrad", etc. looking locomotives are there? 

Live Diesel falls into the category of "that is HOW the Diesel Train locomotive operates" just as the Live Steamer does.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By privero on 02/21/2008 5:05 PM
No, Tac, the petition I am refering too, is a compilation of everything that has been mention on this forum, from small engines to the big engines, etc. I have send Hans an and other Aster Dealers a list of all the engines. Hopefully they can take one of these suggestions.

Ah, what you mean is 'wish-list', not a petition from the entire cross-section of the US/Can/Mex Aster-interested Gauge live steam brotherhood.

My present and continuing state of professional poverty precludes me from being cheeky enough to sign any Aster petition, even if such a document existed, but a petition does not offer a choice of solutions - it asks for a single solution to a demand.  If five hundred of us wanted the Reading Northern, and we all signed up a document to that effect and sent it to Mr Schwuyler - THAT would be a petition.

I'll wait [a long wait, I'm certain] to hear from MY Aster dealer as to what I would like to see as the next US/Can locomotive, should I ever find myself in the fortunate position of putting my money where my mouth is.  However, he has his paws full dealing with the complexities of British-outline demands, and would rightly scorn any request from my end of the purchasing scale with regard to a continental US/Can model.

Anyhow, for you guys over there, we have seen in recent years a G1 'Lion/Titfielfd Thunderbolt' [Aster], an 'Adler' from Maerklin, but a noticeable lack of 'Best Friend of Charlston'.  Nobody has mentioned that one, so far....   
  
tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 

I agree - this is not the place for live diesel - and the diesel guys appreciate the tolerance of the live steamers. 

I requested a Live Diesel forum from the administrator - we'll see what happens. I know the administrator has been busy lately. 

As for diesel models, I took great pains to make mine quiet - 70 decibels at 1 meter at a scale 70mph. But in the tradition of the earl Alcos, it does belch some smoke! 

Thanks, 
Bob


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"Live Diesel" having  been here on the MLS forum under live steam is not any different from the reality of most hobby organizations.  For example: PLS, NJLS , CALS, LA Live steamer clubs with the "big stuff" have diesel as part of the running equpment despite their titles stating "live steam."
So, given the minority nature of this portion of large scale modeling and the tie in to most gauge one meets seems to be a branch of our hobby that is like the real operations of our favorite railroads.


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## danielstroka (Jan 10, 2008)

Since I was up 0600 trying to run some live steam in our first real snow in NJ,  about 2.5" but I failed because  I need a better plow, I might as well post my opinion on what the next Aster model here so it can be ignored, criticized whatever....

The best idea I heard so far was for the PRR J1a.  I have no desire to see another 4-8-4 or a 2-8-4 right now.  I have a Daylight, Berk and am getting the S2; let's see something different.  Focus from the other manufacturer for live steam SG engines (one that starts with an "A") seems to be on producing western road names - SP.    Another eastern road name in SG live steam would be great.  Yes the SP and UP are popular but so are the PRR, C&O, NYC etc.  The J1a could probably be done for a similar price point (at least less than $10k) and is only slightly larger to what Aster seems to be producing now .  Comparing my O gauge J1a to my O Daylight, the engine is approx same size, most the difference in size is in J1a's huge tender.

Now I have to go shower, drag my butt into work, watch it snow outside and think about how I could be out there running live steam if I only had a better snow plow....


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

This thread is not just drifting but is becoming unravelled. It appears that many of the participants in this discussion seem to have missed the keys to this issue. Dr. Rivet has done the best so far at explaining the issue, but there's even more to it. Not only does the US distributor have to feel an engine will be a good seller (125+ units) but also Aster Japan has to agree since they will be responsible through Aster distributors in England, Europe and Asia for selling an additional 125+ units. To achieve this meeting of the minds on an engine to market, international recognition of the prototype is very important. I have had conversations with Fuji San, the boss at Aster Japan, and he firmly believes that larger prototypes have better sales opportunities and this has been borne out over the decades that Aster has been in business. This is not to say that only 4-8-4s will sell, but as Dr. Rivet pointed out, they were the pinnacle of modern steam and were among the last steam engines produced -- giving them much greater exposure to the world's live steam fans. What I'm trying to drive home here is that a few names on an engine wish list isn't going to accomplish much. You have to have the ability to generate a confirmed group of orders for close to 250 engines to get Aster's attention. Accucraft seems to be able to accept commissions on orders of 70 to 100 units, but not Aster. The economics don't work. 

Yes, I would like to see Aster do a smaller engine like maybe a 2-8-0, but the economics and the market just confirm that it isn't going to happen - period! Accucraft and its bargain basement pricing on engines helps to insure that Aster will not endeavor to tackle a smaller, lower priced engine. (This cheap pricing is possible because the Chinese yuan is held artificially low by the Chinese government.) Yes, Aster in Europe underwrote the French 2-8-0; but unfortunately, they are not selling like hotcakes -- either there or here. And yet, the exchange rates between the pound sterling, the euro, and the yen permit Aster to undertake engines for those markets that might be impossible for the US. Why? As a good example, the pound is up almost 1/3rd against the dollar, so they have buying power that we in the US don't have. Several in this thread complained about $7k engines. Well, with the dollar at 106 yen or potentially lower, $7k may be cheap in the not-so-distant future. But if you look at past Aster prices, we in the US probably still have a great deal on current engines. I wasn't around live steam when Aster originally offered the Daylight, but others have told me it sold for $9k+. If so, now we are almost 20 years down the road and Aster kits are selling for unless than $7k -- what a bargain. 

One other thing to consider is the US economy. Watch the news and you'll hear words like "recession" and "inflation" batted around by the Fed chairman and others. Couple this talk with pitiful exchange rates and it's hard to see any serious businessman being willing to commit large sums of his own money to live steam projects. IMHO, we have been lucky to get the Berkshire and have another great opportunity in the upcoming Great Northern S-2. So if you appreciate fine craftsmanship and detail of Aster models, take advantage of the opportunity you have now while you have the chance! 

BTW, for those of you who like smaller models, take a look at the Aster JNR 9600 -- but don't wait too long as I expect they are nearly gone. It is a finely detailed, alcohol-fired, 2-8-0. Yes, it is a Japanese prototype, but it looks great in front of some US boxcars! This kit has been around for almost 10 years with little US exposure, but it is a delightful and compact locomotive at a very reasonable price. And if you have to have an American prototype, why not kit-bash it? That's what I did with a NKP Berkshire to get my C&O Kanawha. 

So good luck and grab that S-2 or 9600 while you have the chance!! 

Ross Schlabach


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02/22/2008 4:53 Am
"Live Diesel" having  been here on the MLS forum under live steam is not any different from the reality of most hobby organizations.  For example: PLS, NJLS , CALS, LA Live steamer clubs with the "big stuff" have diesel as part of the running equpment despite their titles stating "live steam."
                                                                                                                 
Thats a good point Charles, its well taken. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif  I guess I need to lighten up on the diesels and maybe even try to enjoy them. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif

As far as U.S. Aster's,  thank goodness Hans is out there.  It's one thing to be a Aster dealer and take orders..................... but a whole other world when you are the one putting up the big bucks, making the trips to Japan, hearing people "nit pick" about the correct color of Glacier Green, realizing that if you pick a Loco that will not be popular you will have to put salt and pepper on them and eat em', and last,..................the folks at Aster do not work on credit, you have to put the money up first.


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

Heh heh heh heh /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif
 
I just love stirring the pot!  And those who know me, know that I love tounge-in-cheek humor.

To quote from "Officer and a Gentleman" - 'I've got no place to go!!"  /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif

With much love and respect for the Live Steam hobby,

Scott


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## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

A PRR J1a or Texas type locomotive? I'm not sure this country or other countries are ready for something related to Texas for a few years. Ok, off the reservation, cheap shot - but it was so easy - dont shoot! 

I heard from a friend who got to Diamondhead the same thing Ross said Fuji was pretty definite bigger is better for sales. And he said Fuji said Aster gives preference first to its local customers and what is popular with them. He said Fuji said a Challenger loco was a big favorite US loco with Japan customers. They perceive it as a big reason the US beat Japan in WWII because it was the big hauler of war materials to the West coast for the war in the Pacific. Like my friend said it sounds crazy but the Japanese respect power. Challenger is also popular in the US (Europe?). But not cheap.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

As Ross (RP3) would tell you, I pleaded with Hans and Fuji to make a Challenger. I would buy one given the opportunity. But they will cost As much as an Allegheny. I hope it happens, but it seems unlikely. I think I remember Hans would have commissioned the UP FEF a few years ago if the licensing fees weren't exorbitant. So maybe that will happen sooner or later. I definitely recall hearing that one thing absolutely required is the technical drawings. So for my two cents, I think you will only see new locomotives where the drawings are available. That probably limits what can be made more than any other single factor. 

Speculating is fun, but in the end fruitless. No one even has an S-2 yet. Im sure we will hear more in the next 6 months to a year. 
John


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

John 

If you want the UP Challenger (gee, which version) please send Hans a complete set of drawings (yes, they are available), plus $100,000 of your children's future inheritance, plus a letter of credit from your favorite financial institution good for an additional $ 150,000. You are now in a position to PLEAD with Hans to negotiate with Aster to build said locomotive. It is a nice engine, but a $25,000 KIT is a bit beyond even my (seemingly) unlimited train budget. I know of your personal pain and suffering in the acquisition of the H-8, so you MIGHT have an uphill battle. 

I will stick with my (apparently not universally shared) prognostication of the FEF-3. Remember, Tim Iliyniski (sp?) of Cincinnati Garden Railway Company commisioned Samhongsa to produce both the FEF-3 and the N&W J in 1:32 electric in the early 1990s. They cost about $5,000 when introduced, and it was a HARD sell. At the National Garden Railway Convention in 1991 (in Cincinnati) they sold raffle tickets at $25 each for a N&W J to raise money for charity; I understand they barley broke even because so few folks (back then) had any interest in a modern standard gauge locomotive. Even i was reluctant to part withthe money for a chance on it. 

So, for those who desperately want a particular model and are willing to part with the money, I suggest you contact Gordon Watson (Argyle Locomotive Works), or one of the many British bespoke builders, negotiate a price, and send them a full set of plans. I woulld guess a reasonable cost estimate can be achieved by adding up the number of axles on both the locomotive and tender, and multiplying by between $875 and $1000. SO.... a PRR J1 (8 axles on the loco, 8 axles on the long tender, total 16) would be in the range of $ 14,000 and $16,000. Using this formula, buying a C&O T-1 with its 6 axle tender would save you between $ 1750 and $2000. I think it would only lower the price $1,000. 

Gordon, if you are monitoring this thread, let us know if this kind of math gets a person "in the ball park" with a cost estimate for a custom US outline locomotive. 

Remember, if it is a built up loco, the designer doesn't have to engineer an locomotive that can be built from a kit by someone who is presumed to have only moderate model engineering skills and has only basic tools. This is one major difference between a Barratt Engineering (UK) kit and an Aster. The Barratt kits are well designed and build into beautiful well runing locos, but for most of their products, the expectation of the builder's skill level is somewhat beyond that of a novice. Too bad they are all 10mm/ft scale (NIT NIT NIT). 

Regarding the (Dr Rivet) formula, Scott's request for a UP "Big Blow" GTEL (Gas Turbine ELectric) would be ( 6 axles on the lead unit, 6 axles on the turbine, and 6 axles on the oil tender) would lead to 18 x 875 = $15,750 to 18 x 1000 = $18,000. Of course that DID NOT assume a $6,000 Wren turbine; the price is now $ 21,750 to $ 24,000. That is pretty close to my "mud throw" estimate of $25,000 I offered up earlier, which I based on the cost of Ajin making the brass shells in 1:32. 

If you want to have a heart attack, lets look at UP's experimental #80/80B (later #8080/8080B) gas turbine fired with pulverized coal. It used an Alco PA cab with its 2000hp diesel as the contol unit (6 axles), a retired GN electric chassis for the turbine (2-D+D-2, 10 axles), and a Centipede tender (7 axles). Let's see; 6+10+7=23. SO we get a range of $20,125 to $23,000. Looks like the price of an Aster Challenger kit to me. 

More of my highly biased, somewhat baseless and uninformed guessing about what it costs if you want to play in "high stakes" locomotive acquisition. 

Cheers 

Jim 

BTW Ryan, is Charles out sick. I figured I would have been shot in the leg by now. Scott, do you have an answer abouth the O scale wada GTELs


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim - we actually agree! Its not going to be #3985, but its partner the FEF. And I even like the sporty yellow stripe. All I told Hans was I would buy one (and I meant it) - but he probably knows I will buy what he makes anyway. (now I have four cents invested in the next Aster) 

As to my Allegheny, I hope to test it again this weekend. Perhaps. I certainly have spent a huge amount of time building it and am ready to be finished!.... I am glad I own it BUT it has taken my quite a bit longer than I expected. I look forward to runing it with your CF.


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## scottemcdonald (Jan 11, 2008)

Scott, do you have an answer abouth the O scale wada GTELs 


I have no idea. They were produced for the Japanese market. You know, the country where innovation and new ideas are rewarded. -- Scott


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

If I had only be there in 1991 I would of purchase quite a few of the N & W J tickets and by now converted it to live steam!  As I recalled that production model was a high end piece for the sparkies market  during that time line requiring a much larger trackage than the average person had in their back yard.  Combine that with the fact that available rolling stock was very expensive, it's no wonder sales were low: economics not interest would have been the limiting factor.    Similiar to most regional interest of railroads(UP, SP, PRR, NYC N&W,etc), i am sure that there are 100-150 buyers along with many outside the US for a "J."  

With that said, hands down the FEF is a winner and will be a  big seller.  I am sure, if this is the next model Hans with be wise (as he has done in the past) not to show his cards until the S2 has made the profit level he needs to be successful.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

For those of you who really can't wait - here is a short list of bespoke builders in the UK whose models are true museum pieces that just happen to work perfectly:-

Dave Walker
Kings Road Lock house
Foxholes Lane
Altofts
WF6 2PE
UK

[email protected]

His workmanship is astounding - the last loco I saw was a G1 'Britannia', in electric - priced around £5500.

Mike Danby
48 Acaster Drive
Garforth
Leeds
LS25 2BQ

[email protected]

Again, electric.

Keith Cousins
131 Redlands Drive
Milton Keynes
MK5 8BP
0044-1908-230445

Steam kits of Paul Forsyth designs, but certainly worth asking.

Notwithstanding the vast fortunes of most here, I am of the opinion that a live-steam batch-built G1 Challenger built to drawings over here in UK will easily hit $30K - maybe even $40K.

But then, as I am being reminded every time I look at this thread, it's only money, eh? 

tac
www.ovgrs.org
G1MRA Member #3641


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Tac 

Thanks for that short list. IT IS A KEEPER (for when I win a lottery, any lottery). Is there also a David Baker in the UK who is a custom loco builder, or am I confusing the name with someone else? 

Regards 

Jim


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Reguarding a custom built loco I spoke to Gordon Watson abbout a 1:32 Pacific in CNJ and he said 7,500 is the ball park for a short run of about 5 pcs and that was if he would build it which he will not since he had stopped taking any furute order for the next 3 years until he is caught up. Then he will possible do some more work or just work on his own locomotives... 

He did recommend Graham Dixon as another builder that would be willing to take on a custom order. His prices are unknown at this time. 

I too would like to see a new roadname as Accucraft is beating SP to death now even more with narrow gauge SP. As for what they build next, Hans mentioned that they are also considering a few european engines too along with a couple US....Supposedly he will be asking around with this list or however he plans to do it but he said there will be a poll or survey of the next engine after the S2 is released. Maybe its packed in the S2 box??? 

If they some out with an appealing loco from the east coast I may have to start the SG bug going. As long as it ran in the NJ lines of course.


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Jason 

Let me test my (finger in my ear equation) cost estimator. Gordon said $7500 for five units built at once. My numbers presuppose a one-off build. Let us be consevative and add 15% because there is only one and not five. Remeember, the design time is a sunk cost, machining set up is the same for one part as five parts, etc. 

So, for a 4-6-2 with tender with 2 axle trucks: 6 axles on the engine, 4 on the tender; total 10 axles. 
Your 5 unit price $7500 x 1.15 for a one-off = $8625 divide by 10 axles = $862.50 per axle. 
I admit this is below my guess of $875, but if my fixed cost % is too low, we are right up in my guesstimate. 

So obviously the answer is to get someone to commit to a build of about 10 locos and front about 50% up front as a minimum. 
The only thing about it is that custom builders usually tire of doing very many of any one thing. It gets very tedious after a while. Just ask David Bailey about his coal fired K-27 project. I think he burned out pretty fast. I am not sure many of us would even want to build 10 Hartford stock cars, let alone 10 of the same steam locomotive. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dr Rivet on 02/22/2008 8:23 PM
Jason 

Let me test my (finger in my ear equation) cost estimator. Gordon said $7500 for five units built at once. My numbers presuppose a one-off build. Let us be consevative and add 15% because there is only one and not five. Remeember, the design time is a sunk cost, machining set up is the same for one part as five parts, etc. 

So, for a 4-6-2 with tender with 2 axle trucks: 6 axles on the engine, 4 on the tender; total 10 axles. 
Your 5 unit price $7500 x 1.15 for a one-off = $8625 divide by 10 axles = $862.50 per axle. 
I admit this is below my guess of $875, but if my fixed cost % is too low, we are right up in my guesstimate. 

So obviously the answer is to get someone to commit to a build of about 10 locos and front about 50% up front as a minimum. 
The only thing about it is that custom builders usually tire of doing very many of any one thing. It gets very tedious after a while. Just ask David Bailey about his coal fired K-27 project. I think he burned out pretty fast. I am not sure many of us would even want to build 10 Hartford stock cars, let alone 10 of the same steam locomotive. 

Cheers 
Jim

Jim:
Working with your formula numbers how would that fit an Aster Challenger (I like that prospect)?  The Aster remake of the AD-60 Garratt; 4-8-4 - 4-8-4, $12K kit; 16 axles = $750/axle.  By your est. ($875/axle) the Garratt would cost, $14K.  At Diamondhead there was talk from the old timers that the original AD-60 Garratt cost more than the remake at $12K for the kit, and the first run was ~100 the remake 30 ???

Comparing cost of an Aster Allegheny, 17 axles, a Challenger 17 axles, @$750/per = $12,750.  @$875 = $14,875.   But the Aster AD-60 Garratt is a kit at $750/axle and your example of $875/axle is for a RTR one-off.  Aster would make 120 or 200 Challengers (per the 2 Allegheny run quantities), so seems Aster could make money on a Challenger at $12K-$14K for the kit if they are with the Garratt.

I was at DH and overheard Fuji's comments on bigger is better and a Challenger's popularity with local customers.  I got the impression It could come sooner rather than later.

Or how would you rework your formula and numbers for a Challenger?  

Just throwing in my SWAG.


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been reading this with interest what I find strange is are there no engineers in the States that scatch build to order I  keep seeing mentioned UK builders? The builders Tac mentioned are very good but only one (Keith Cousins) will build steam.

Graham Dixon was mentioned who I know well he has closed his books for the past few years and has orders for the next 4 years I have a friend who picks a new loco up from him every year and places another order on pickup. His last loco (last month) was a  Brittannia it's cost £7000 so an American loco would probably be £10,000 plus.

I could name at leat six other steam builders here who build to order but hey  if you guys start ordering stuff us lucky Brits will have to wait /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue2.gif .

Tony


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Chris 

First, one has to assume my high number (it is an Aster, remember) of $1,000 per axle. That gets us to $17,000. That is creeping up on the original H-8 kit price of $18,500. 

Second, an articulated's complexity with more cylinders, much larger boiler, etc, will add cost, and the sunk cost for the design will be greater (use of modern CAD systems not withstanding). 

Third, Aster is designing a kit that is supposed to be able to be assembled by someone with only a moderate level of skill, so much more thought has to go into how to make something that can meet that requirement. Add 25% ; now $21,250 

Fouth, Aster has name recognition, and can (and does) inflate the price based on that alone. Compare a Chevy or GMC Suburban to a Cadillac Escalade. Some people will buy it because of the name alone, but it does not always work. If it did, Hans would have an empty warehouse. Add 10%; now $23,375 GETTING PRETTY CLOSE 

Compare the Aster Daylight with the Accucraft 14 axles ; $9000(?) / 14 = $643 vs $4500/14 = $321. 

Remember, I dreamed these numbers up as a way to estimate an approximate cost for a ONE OFF from a custom builder, so one could plan their heart attack in advance. It serves no other purpose. It does not account for currency exchange issues, used locomotives, mass produced models (more than 20 units), or the phase of the moon. 

I don't think the math can be refined because of the philosphies of the builders, the work load they want to take on, and a host of other intangibles. IT IS JUST A WAG generator, that may get you within 10% to 20% for a locomotive. 

As I said in the beginning, it is also very unscientific; it was removed from one of my (upper) orifices. 

Sorry I have been dragging this thread in an unintended direction. 

Cheers 

Jim


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Wearing my hat as an Accucraft and Aster Dealer (24 years for Aster) it seems that apart from Andrew, Ross and Jim, the vast majority have little grasp of the reality of the manufacturing of live steam 1:32 engines. There is little to add to what you three say, and Ross you are so dead-on with your view of the economy, I mentioned it a couple of months ago and the Moderator yanked my post as being inflammatory! 
As regards re-runs of Aster, forget it, they don't. The BigBoy and Garratt are both cases of using up dead stock of spares for mantle queens, they're not re-runs. As regards reruns of Hudson and K4s, John Gummo ended up selling them at Fire Sale prices, I bought 3 Hudsons and 2 K4s for $1500 each in 1985! 
As regards what Hans will chose after the S2, for crying out loud the S2 is still 3 months away! Buy the S2 and Hans will THEN have the incentive to chose something for 2010/11 which is going to sell. By the by, that high pitched sound you can hear is the sound of Hans pulling his hair out because of the BS that some folk post here. 
Finally, all this talk is of engines, engines engines. Surely there's a larger market out there for mass-produced rolling stock in 1:32 and I don't mean $600 coaches but something about half that. Accucraft seem on the right track with their 40' AAR boxcars. Any thoughts? 
David M-K 
Ottawa


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Doc Rivet, 

1st of all, thank you for youe explinations on costing out a new locomotive. I understand there is some guestimations involved, yet you seemed pretty right on. Though for someone only really jumping in since last year, it sheds a lot of light on everything I missed leading up to the crowning of GN-S2 as Miss Aster/US Loco 2008. 

I missed the local pagents, which many locos never got a chance. Moving up to the regionals, where 10 finalists were scrutinized, interviewed and had to pass the tallent portion of the pagent. Then the final test, the swim suit compition. And I gotta say, I'm really digging the S2 in that green one piece. Can't wait for the Aster US Pagent for 2010. in the meantime, isn't there an Aster/EUR pagent coming up? 

regarding the Accucraft/Aster, GM/Cadillac comparision... I'm hoping that Accucraft has plans to release theie new 1:32 Flying Scotsman Sparkie in live steam. 

My 2c


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## Bob Pope (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, 

I think your analysis is an interesting addition to this thread. At first blush, the prices of our model trains seem exorbitant. But when you start taking all the factors into account it starts to make sense. 

I remember my jaw dropping when I saw prices in the $600-$900 range for passenger car rolling stock. Then I made four passenger cars from scratch out of aluminum and fiberglass. Suddenly, those prices seemed to be a bargain when you figure in the cost of the materials, and the time to design, fabricate, paint, and decal the cars. 

Bob


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GaugeOneLines on 02/23/2008 7:48 AM

Finally, all this talk is of engines, engines engines. Surely there's a larger market out there for mass-produced rolling stock in 1:32 and I don't mean $600 coaches but something about half that. Accucraft seem on the right track with their 40' AAR boxcars. Any thoughts? 
David M-K 
Ottawa


Fascinating stuff.  And yes - those guys with $10,000 locos need something to pull.  I saw a lot of PFE reefers behind the new AC-12s at Cabin Fever.  MDC sold a lot of hoppers and cabooses when they made a 1/32 line.  Accucraft's new 40' boxcar will undoubtedly be seen in multiples behind the Aster or Accu locos - $604 for a 6-car set seems just about right - and you get a box to carry them in!  

I would suggest that there is also a market for passenger equipment.  Aristocraft sells plenty of heavyweight coaches to the owners of K4s and the like - despite being 1/29th, they are a bit undersized, I'm told, so they look good.  Accucraft's latest J&S coach with the removable sides means they can make a coach or combine without reworking everything.  Surely a 1/32 coach could be designed with a couple of different side options - in fact, why not sell the sides separate from the body+underframe.  The UK distributor for Accucraft is pressing them to bring out coaches that match the latest 1/32nd Flying Scotsman (now, when will we see that in live steam.)


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

The UK distributor for Accucraft is pressing them to bring out coaches that match the latest 1/32nd Flying Scotsman (now, when will we see that in live steam.)


The coaches I believe are on hold as 'another company' is said to be producing BR Mk1 coaches in brass at an 'affordable' price, about GBP250 each. As regards a live steam Accucraft Flying Scotsman....forget it, aintgoingtohappen.com/  Turning an engine designed for electric into a live steamer is the wrong way to go about it, make it live steam then make electric versions of that is the logical way and Accucraft know it. I think they also now  understand that making engines that Aster already have produced only invites comparison, and at half the price of the original they come off second best.....can you say GS-4 Daylight?

DM-K
Ottawa


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## tony23 (Jan 2, 2008)

David and Peter,

You hit the nail on the head I purchased Jerry Hyde's F7 only to find I could not purchase anything in the States to run behind it I emailed all the dealers (St.Aubins, Trainworld etc.) only to be told they never know when to expect a deliverey of MTH stuff but they did want full payment (yer right).

Why are you guys over there not making anything for the Aster's and Accucraft to pull ,there is a market but please be a better quality than the MTH (crude) plastic looking.

I ended up selling my F7 because of this.

So when I get my S2 am I going to have the same problem if so I'll bail out now /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif

Tony


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## AsterUK (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony, I think you are being a little unfair in your remarks. The MTH Caboose is quite nice and can be toned down to loose the plastic look. The AMS Reefers are quite nice too although it pains me to say it! 

I have available some J&M Heavywight Pullmans for sale (NYC and Pennsy) they are heavy but built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Contact me off line for these. Also quite a few folks around the area you live have American stock and if we all get together we can make up some pretty good consists. Shame you sold your Jerry Hyde diesel since we could have tested it with some pretty impressive loads.


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## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

So when I get my S2 am I going to have the same problem if so I'll bail out now /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif

Tony

Tony, 

Just slow down mate! There is all sorts of MDC available on eBay which is quite acceptable stuff for under $50 per piece, but the REALLY good news are the AAR 40' boxcars in 10 different liveries coming (hopefully) later this summer from Accucraft. The recommended list price is $100 each but you will have no difficulty finding them from the discounters for $60, that works out at about GBP600 for 20 plus shipping, a real steal for quality equal (if not better) than the PFE Reefers!  Add 30 of those to a Railking/MTH caboose that Andrew mentionsand you'll have a fabulous train and something for the S2 to make it work hard. Pity you couldn't wait and sold the Hyde F unit., the one he was running at DH was going beautifully and so quietly compared to the 'old technology' Wada Zephyr.

DM-K
Ottawa


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

There is another electric builder, which is www.fineartmodels.com, the trains are of incredible detail. Check their locomotives. VERY EXPENSIVE and not many of them.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I seem to recall reading on this site a while back that while Fine Arts models are wondrous to look at, the draw-bar came off when one was coupled up to a train.... 

A locomotive in an aquarium, is how my daughter describes one she saw in an office in London.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I was loving those 1:32 cars. I'd love to get a flat car from them. Too bad they are all gone, and nothing in the 2nd hand page.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Although the current 1:32 rolling stock landscape looks pretty bleak at the moment, things seem to be improving. There are the much-needed Accucraft boxcars looming on the horizon, and many of the old MDC cars and parts are now available again thanks to a new outfit, Mainline America, who are also working on some new 1:32 products as well. At some point in the not-too-distant future (I hope), I'll write up an article about some of my MDC bash projects and simple modifications that can really improve the look of these cars. 











Of course, by this point we have really strayed from the original intent of this thread, so if anyone wants to discuss 1:32 rolling stock perhaps it's time to start a new one...


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

S2 cars reference for clarification:

As per Aster site and design, the problem is not freight but passenger coaches:
In 1930, 14 Class S-2s (road numbers 2575 through 2588) came from Baldwin with 80" drivers. With 73" drivers, the S-1s were better suited for dual service, but the S-2s were truly passenger locomotives. The Class S-2s had 29 x 29 cylinders, a 225 psi boiler pressure, a weight of 420,900 lbs and a tractive effort of 58,300 pounds.
Reference to determine a fine passenger train of the GN: Oriental Limited:

http://www.gnflyer.com/1924original.html

In March and April 1930, 14 S-2 Northerns were acquired. These fine locomotives were intended for the Oriental Limited, Empire Builder and the Fast Mail. Initially they were assigned to the Spokane - Wenatchee and the Williston - Havre sections of the line. Both divisions featured the long tangents, easy curves, and light grades for which the S-2's 80" drivers were designed. _Reference sheet #40 contains additional information on the S-2 class._

So, the choices are a bit limited in making a GN passenger set:
MTH
Aristocraft- 
Alan Wright?
J & M coaches- need repaint
David Leech (second hand) as per diesel power


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, I'd love to have an ongoing 1:32 rolling stock thread!! I'll go start it even.  That was easy.  Build it, and they will come...


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Whom ever CapeCodSteam is, put the 1/32 car string in the Rolling Stock forum if any of you are looking for it. Charles, there is also Kern Valley Railway for your list of GN passenger sets. David Leech never made heavy weights.


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

*DM&IR 2-8-8-4 YELLOWSTONE!!!!!*


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

A DM&IR Yellowstone would be up near the top of my list too (and the 1:32 ore cars are already out there to run behind it). It seems to me that Accucraft would be the logical choice to produce that one though, since they have already made the running gear for it - it just happens to be running backwards under an SP engine!


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## BradN (May 5, 2008)

Howdy all, esp. Hans. I would like to see either the PRR T1 duplex or UP FEF next... if the FEF is chosen how about an optional functional AUXILIARY TENDER for longer run time. Aux tender could be available in black, grey or UP yellow. BIG BOY owners would have a field day with those aux tenders as well... 
All the best, 
Brad


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Ok my pennys worth.. 
ATSF 3460 modrnised Pacific, or Souther PS4..medium sized so you have the possibility of getting adecent string of cars behind it and learning how to drive for max performance. 



Gordon.


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## Shaylover (Jan 2, 2008)

I think if you have a look in the Rolling Stock area there are two 1/32 Hopper topics already. 

And on the subject of what loco's I'd like to NOT see made. 
The reason is I've made a promise to myself, "No more loco's!" 

I'm a lover of N&W, so a J Class 4-8-4, an A Class 2-6-6-4, then the 
USRA 2-8-8-2 and 0-8-0 (Y Class and S1 Class.) 
A Challenger in Clinchfield roadname, a Virginian 2-6-6-6 or even a 2-10-10-2, now that would get the loosen the purse strings. 
And as a mate for my AC-12, an AC-9 which ties in with the Yellowstone of DM&IR. 
The USRA loco's could have a different tender for each roadname. 

OOOooohhh how I hope they don'e build any of those loco's.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John and Gordon 
Both of you listed two of our favorites for any future productions!


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## privero (Jan 18, 2008)

All of you have great ideas for next engines. This month the Aster S2 engine will start to be deliver in KIT or RTR engine. So, here we go again, what is next from Aster. Do any of you have talk to Hans, etc.? For sure there sure be one already in the drawings, even if it is not for the American soil.


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## LindaH (Jan 5, 2008)

I asked [email protected] about the future Aster they were seeking offers upon and they kindly gave the following reply ... 

"It seems that Aster has changed their mind and that they will produce a SNCF 241 P instead of the 241 A. I do not know much more for the moment but will update my web-site for the changes. It won't be before 2010 and the model will be very expensive." ... 

That locomotive looks extremely complicated to me [a non-model maker]. 
LindaH


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Aren't rumours wondrous things? First we have rumours of the UP #8444 [that will undoubtedly be an expensively large model], and now we have rumours of 241P [not only an expensively large model, but a very complex compound to boot]. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 

If either of these two rumours have any credibility, we are in for two models that will leave no change out of at least $10K apiece...in which case, I think it's fair to say that Aster would seem to be moving even further away from a good few live-steam fans who might otherwise have invested in a $5000 model. 

Let's see....I think I'll start a rumour. It would have to be a very regional model though, as well as frighteningly expensive...and possibly unique. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif 

Howsabout the unique BR 8P, the 'Duke of Gloucester' #71000, not only the largest and most powerful express passenger locomotive built in UK for UK, but uniquely fitted with Capriotti rotary/poppet valve gear? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif 

There, I feel better now./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## vmsysprog (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm joining this discussion a little late. Some comments have been made regarding UP licensing. This is no longer an issue. Mike Wolfe of Mike's Train House negotiated a deal with the UP for *all * toy train/scale train manufacturers that basically states there will be no more royalites required. I don't know the exact details of the agreement. With regards to a UP Challenger, mallets, articulateds, et al, in posting a "I wish they'd make . . ." on another list, I suggested a Borsig Mallet. A couple of replies posted were that a) more axles equal more expense (which should go without saying) but the other comment that has stuck in my mind was that the leading set of drivers, running gear, etc, tend to slip because there is not enough weight on the front drivers. I don't know whether this is true or not. I would tend to believe that it is true, since not all things scale well. All of this being said, I kind of lost hope that a Borsig, or any other mallet/articulate would be considered. I for one don't want an engine that doesn't run well. So, I have my doubts that a Challenger would be produced. Although I like big steam and lots of moving parts, I have no desire for a Challenger. Big Boy - yes, but that is so far out of my price range, well, I'm not too worried about it. As a few have mentioned, I think the UP 844 is an excellent choice. I have an Aster Berk, built it from a kit and enjoyed doing it. I'd love to get the S2 but I do have a limited budget. So, I'm betting that an 844 wil be done someday and am saving my money for that. 
Someone suggested an Aux water tender; excellent idea. MTH is making UP passenger cars. 
Regards to all, 
Steve G.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Cool Locomotive 

Duke of Gloucester 
http://www.71000trust.com/index.html


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## jtutwiler (May 29, 2008)

I contacted Aster UK asking them if they are considering the Duke of Gloucester for production and they said that it is not currently on their list for anytime in the near future /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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