# Tis a sad day...another GRR falls



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Got an email from Ray Robinson that he'd given up the fight with the county and state government to keep his ride on garden railroad in operation. His email said he was going to begin tearing it down on 1 Sept. Tis a sad day.

Here's a great little video about the RR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd4U7ECw-i0&feature=email

Here's two web links that tells the whole story of it's demise. Ya gotta dig through it a lot. http://members.peak.org/~kmr3/M&LKRailroad/ and http://www.savemlkrr.com/


Seems that the major sticking point was a state ruling by one of the bureaucrats that ANY ride-on-railroad needed a license to operate...and insurance.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I can almost, almost see why....


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

When you fight the "Guberment" only two things can happen the "Guberment can win" or the "Guberment can win" That's the only two things that can happen. yessssssssssssssssssssssserie yup yup The Regal 


Or should I say the "GOOBERMent"!!!!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That whole thing was hard to understand--it looked to me like there was a neighbor or someone with a grievance. I kept trying to find out what the county's side of the story was, but never did.


I was stunned to learn that the owner of the RR had been convicted of lewd acts with two ten year old girls! Yikes! I wonder if that had anything to do with it? 




The County's response to him is posted--it doesn't look all that  bad considering the scale of what he built and the zoning for the land it was on. It's too bad all around


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

He would have had no problems with any government if he hadn't went public a few times, giving rides to scout groups, etc.
That opened the can of worms.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Thats why I stopped JJ and Stan from tring to ride their trains on my RR. It would have taken for ever to get JJ unstuck from a tunnel.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I think being forced to tear it up is rediculous. The man looks like he lives in the middle of nowhere... what is it hurting really? Sounds to me clearly of govt gone wrong. I mean if the man wants to take on the liability of having folks ride his RR then that should be his business. 

Get too caught up in the details of the "rules" and you completely loose sight of the big picture. What a shame.


Raymond


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

It's pathetic how the Government will pursue something as simple as this man's railroad with such vigor, but yet sweep under important issues like education and the homeless.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I've followed this for a few years and it's NOT liability. This is Oregon. An environmental group got in there and said he was ruining the wetlands! Notice the "before" and "after" pictures of the river where the bridge is located. In the ten plus years the owner of the property has made it a lush area. My brother-in-law lives near him and he said they are way over the top on environmental issues


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Somehow that does not surprise me. I would make a comment but it would dive it into politics so I'm going to refrain. As one of our well known Presidents once said, "When govt expands, liberty contracts." It's very true and many I think loose sight of that until it's too late and this is a perfect example. An extreme in either direction is not good and this is an extreme. If this is correct, then the envionmentalist have used the power of govt to (in my opinion) impede on this man's personal freedom.


Raymond


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If you read the links you'll see that the County's position is that he built the RR on land that wasn't zoned for it, without getting the necessary land use permits. If you mess with a stream or a river you mess with everyone downstream. That's why the County issues permits. The guy broke the law when he built it.

Ok, I can see giving him an exemption. But then there's that conviction for lewd acts with two ten year old girls. As a parent with a four year old daughter, I have to wonder if the state should be sanctioning a ride-on scale railroad operated by a convicted child molester. Check out the youtube video--it opens with a shot of a little kid. There are kids all over the place.


So here's the scenario: convicted child molester buys land and without getting permits constructs a railroad that violates county zoning laws. His railroad includes bridges and *a dam* over a river--did you notice he built a small dam on his own authority? Somebody complains to the County--it's not clear who, it looks like a guy he had a dispute with in some business transaction, or maybe it was a local county official.


Probably there was some room for the County to grant an exemption, and it looks to me like the County was trying to do that. They fined him $3000, then cut the fine to $500. But then the child molester thing comes up. Doesn't the County have some responsibility there? Should it allow a convicted child molester to run an illegally built ride -on railroad?

I'm not arguing the County is right or wrong here, just that there are two sides to every story. It's easy to trot out the usual "govt. is evil" rhetoric, but as I mentioned, as a parent with a 4 year old daughter, I kind of want to know if a convicted child molester is running something likely to attract kids. And if I lived downstream I would not want my upstream neighbors building dams and bridges. Why is he giving it up? It's not clear. All I can see is that the County fined him $500.


Let me say again I'm not saying the County is in the right, just that this story is more complicated than it seems at first. The guy did the crime and did his time--should he have to be punished for it forever? I can see multiple sides of that issue. I hope they find a way to keep it running.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Regardless of the politics or reasons involved, it seems a shame such a beautiful railroad is going to be torn down. 

Why not file for the permits and get the insurance ? It would seem that if you can build such a large railroad the resources would be available to conform to the legal requirements. Probably would have been cheaper than trying to fight the regulations. 

Another alternative would be to remove the "ride on" ability. Convoluted solution, but I would think a better alternative than removing the entire RR. 

Mike may be correct in his speculation of why the county persued this issue. 
Ralph


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

.....true, and I wonder what his homeowner's insurance is/was also telling him with giving rides to "John Q. Public".


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't know enough about the law to know what applies. If he's giving rides to large numbers of people, it seems like the County has an obligation to make sure the track and bridges are safe. If people are riding it and a bridge collapses and someone gets hurt, the County would be sued for failing to pursue its legal duty. 

I've looked at it as closely as I can, and it seems like what the county wants is 

A: a $500 fine

B: a state building inspector to come in and certify the thing 



That doesn't seem that bad, but then I'm not the one having to deal with it. Hope they find a way to keep it running


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

I've kept track of this for over a year--the railroad's website was discovered by someone who worked for the county, and they decided to start this over that. Despite, from what I can tell, already having seen it when they dumped all the dirt on his land. 

I can see where an amusement park ride law would help, but in some cases it's my idea that a specific ruling based on that individual is needed. Unfortunately, that is not the case.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

mrs tac and I and a whole scad of friends over in Oregon have been there, seen it, touched the elephant and come away entranced by what Ray and Kathleen Robinson have achieved with the help of many friends and neighbours - volunteers to a man/woman, including a member of the Lame County administration, too. Lame County [did I spell that right?] had the audacity to dump over twenty THOUSAND yards of what they laffingly refer to as 'ground cover' on his land, without his permission, too. All that Ray has done is to even it out and recover a large swamp used to water cows for the last 70+ years back to a near-natural appearance, with the help of a bit of engineering that the county was not prepared to do.

As for his so-called neighbours - the nearest of whom live over one and a half miles away on the other side of thousand foot high heavily-forested hills - being a mite peeved at all the commotion and noise, may I suggest that any of you who actually LIVE in Lame County go find out where Ray and Kathleen actually live, and then, having done so, make up your own minds. In order to overlook the property, you'd need to climb up the far side of heavily-wooded mountainside on three sides - all owned by Ray and Kathleen, BTW, and peer through the trees with a pair of good binoculars to have any hope of actually FINDING the property. When we were there last time we could hear the darn moss on the trees growing, but nothing else. Look at the youtube movies - EVERYTHING you see in the surrounding landscape belongs to Ray and Kathy. Neighbours? What neighbours?

This exercise in vindictiveness is a measure of what seems more and more driving county halls in the, dare I say it, less public parts of your great nation. I say that with reservation, as even with the best will in the world, Deadwood, OR just hasn't got the appeal of Malibu Beach to most folks. Those like us, however, who have a great love of nature and landscape and trains all combined, took it to our collective hearts, rain and all.

The last hundred and forty years of history of the PNW, still with us today in countless short-line operations all over, is based on a combination of landscape and the hand of Man - forests and trains - and that is what most of us love about the whole PNW. These railroads, many still with us, are a constant source of enjoyment and fascination to those who see them and ride on them. There are few places on earth where can you ride behind a real Heisler that has been fully restored by one man and his dream like you can on the Oregon Coast Scenic Railroad, just up the way in Tillamook County. And with the closure of the Lake Kathleen RR, two folk's dream will have been turned to ashes. 

However, it seems that as far as the miseries and scrooges in Lame County Hall are concerned - the period-counters and administration mavens - this does not matter. With few exceptions, they seem to have forgotten that life is pretty darn short, and has to be enjoyed while you have it - there sure as heck are NO little trains in the graveyard. 

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 06/05/2009 6:35 AM If he's giving rides to large numbers of people, it seems like the County has an obligation to make sure the track and bridges are safe. 


Sir, he is NOT giving rides to a large number of people. He gave rides to a scout troop, and a bunch of like-minded friends, most of whom were the ones who helped him build the line. It is most categorically NOT open to the public.
As far as the structures are concerned, Ray has had a long and distinguished career as a scenery engineer for Walt Disney, and designed and built many of the structures in Disneyland/world. A look at his trestle should convince you that he knows what he is doing. 

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

TAC and Mike,

What do you know about his conviction of child molestation? Because I have a brother-in-law living in the area and he has grandkids with him, I tried to find out if Ray was registered as a child molestor. I can't find anything about this charge. I DO KNOW that there was a conviction of a man in Oregon that had a large outdoor layout (G scale). This was about four years ago. I would be interested to know. This is a serious charge.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The youtube video shows a lot of kids riding, and some elderly folks, and the website mentions "1000s" of visitors. Which is great--as I say, I hope he finds a way to keep it running. But shouldn't something that attracts thousands of vsitors have insurance? 


But the issue of the County dumping dirt on his property, whatever may be the facts in that case, is not relevant to the issue of the RR, is it? Let's assume the County was completely irresponsible on that matter--it has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with thelegal issues at hand in the case of the RR.


And it's still not clear why he is taking the track up. If the structures are well built--and they certainly seem to be--why not let the inspector certify? 


Is it the insurance costs? Well then surely one way around that would be to stop giving rides to large numbers of people, or else get insurance. 


I wish the man only well, the RR is beautiful and charming, but it seems to me like the state is exercising due diligence in this case. But then we still only have one side of the story


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The newspaper says that he was convicted 20+ years ago, and served 3 years of a 6 year sentence. He was not required to register his name as a convicted sex offender because his conviction predated the laws requiring registration:

"Robinson is not required to register as a sex offender here or in California, according to officials with the Oregon State Police, because his conviction predates the existence of registry laws that might prevent him from being near minors or allow parents to consult a list and discover his name on it. He does not have a criminal record in Oregon." 


http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/cityregion/12775064-41/story.csp 


When did he work for Disney? He lived in Mt Shasta 27 years ago, thn moved to Eugene Ore, then to Deadwood


The more recent Oregon man was Warrren Mumpower


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gary Armitstead on 06/05/2009 8:37 AM
TAC and Mike,

What do you know about his conviction of child molestation? Because I have a brother-in-law living in the area and he has grandkids with him, I tried to find out if Ray was registered as a child molestor. I can't find anything about this charge. I DO KNOW that there was a conviction of a man in Oregon that had a large outdoor layout (G scale). This was about four years ago. I would be interested to know. This is a serious charge.



Reportedly, his conviction pre-dates the need to register.

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/cityregion/12775064-41/story.csp


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

THX Mike,

Warren Mumpower was the one I was thinking of. I will pass this info along to my bro-in-law as he is involved with youth church camps in this area and around Eugene. I DO think that this conviction did not help his situation at all. Too bad for ALL concerned.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Read the article, it put's everything into perspective. If only.....no conviction, permits, no media, no outside rides, no dispute all of which resulted in a whole list of factors that has made it the "little RR can could not be..." so much for the American dream.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have strong feeling there is more to this story than we are being told. Did he work for Disney? I found this link were he apparently said he was a brakeman for the S+P:

http://alan.batie.org/world/archives/000092.html 


According to this guy, he visited the RR in 2005 and was told "Just as we were leaving, he gave me a loaner VHS tape of a segment Oregon Field Guide did on his setup last summer, which I just got done recording on DVD and making some copies to send back with the tape. It says he was a brakeman/conductor for 17 years with Southern Pacific if I remember right. Now he's a landscaper --- he learned concrete sculpting working on the Oregon Coast Aquarium construction" 
The Aquarium opened in 1992. 


It's kind of hard to put these two stories together, isn't it? Worked for Disney, built many structures in both parks while living in Mt Shasta, and also working as a brakeman on the SP? But did not learn concrete sculpting till 1992? Maybe this blogger is remembering wrong.


There's no doubt government can be stupid and inflexible and intrusive. It's easier and appealing to blame "bureaucrats." More and more I'm feeling pretty sure we are not getting all the facts here.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 06/05/2009 8:39 AM
The youtube video shows a lot of kids riding, and some elderly folks, and the website mentions "1000s" of visitors. Which is great--as I say, I hope he finds a way to keep it running. But shouldn't something that attracts thousands of vsitors have insurance? 


But the issue of the County dumping dirt on his property, whatever may be the facts in that case, is not relevant to the issue of the RR, is it? Let's assume the County was completely irresponsible on that matter--it has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with thelegal issues at hand in the case of the RR.


And it's still not clear why he is taking the track up. If the structures are well built--and they certainly seem to be--why not let the inspector certify? 


Is it the insurance costs? Well then surely one way around that would be to stop giving rides to large numbers of people, or else get insurance. 


I wish the man only well, the RR is beautiful and charming, but it seems to me like the state is exercising due diligence in this case. But then we still only have one side of the story



You know....I started this thread to lament the passing of a nice garden railroad....and it sure has taken an ugly turn. Yes, there is this conviction issue that was dredged up at a critical time in the decision making regarding Ray's past. I'm sure that exposure didn't help his cause. Like I initially said...the ruling by the state that says a PRIVATE garden ride on railroad must comply with state laws designed to regulate the carnival industry is the problem. Once that ruling was made (and it's on the web site), it means Ray has to comply with inspection and regulation law aspects that carnivals must do. 

BUT...regarding cost, this ruling is NOT insignificant as was suggested above ("is it the insurance costs"). It means applying for and getting a conditional use permit to operate a carnival on YOUR OWN LAND. To get that, you must post a bond...thousands of dollars. To get that, you must get liability insurance...not a addition to your home owner policy...but one to insure "your" carnival. You must submit to yearly inspections by people from the state who could cause you more expense. You might have to start developing and maintaining an Environmental Impact Report...cause you're moving dirt...and, it can get crazier than that...especially given what some environmental groups will force on local governments. We are NOT talking about a few hundred dollars here. The conditional use permit is like $6000 a year alone.


As for the suggestion that by giving rides, he made his private railroad a PUBLIC conveyance...well, I think that is complete crap. Inviting means just that...asking selected folks to visit. I've read nothing that indicates you can just stop by and ride. There's a ride-on-railroad club in upstate NY that requires you to join the club as a member just to ride on their trains...because they are NOT PUBLIC...and they want to stay that way.


This whole thing is about PUBLIC versus PRIVATE...and yes, the opposition pulled out Ray's past to keep it going their way. It's a dangerous precedent...what's happened here...and a very sad ending to a great looking garden railroad. All of us should be reminded of this when you decide to "invite" people over to see your GRR...as some state bureaucrat could also say you need a "conditional use permit".


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's very helpful, Mike. But who is "the opposition" here? That's not really clear. The County seems to have recognized his work restoring the watershed by dramatically cutting the fine. The quotes that I have seen on the net, from County officials, make it sound as if they are _mostly_ sympathetic.


Also he was having videos of the thing made, and inviting groups--that's kind of making it public, isn't it?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, you hit on the exact problem, even invited friends = public in most cases. 

Say I have a friend over to the house, they ride my "ride on railroad", or heck, they twist and break their leg getting out of the car in the driveway before having the chance. 

They file a claim with their health insurance. 

Their insurance company will get the specifics on the incident, including how/where it happened. 

Their insurance company hits up my insurance company for the bill, as it would be covered under my lialbility at that time..... 

....and if they catch wind it was on some item (from a pitbull, to a trampoline to a ride on railway) that is either verboten by most insurers or not covered under my homeowner's policy that may have caused or been related to the injury..... 

...where will the bill lie? 

And then if it was under something that should have been inspected by the city/county/state/township and was not, it could get really messy. 

And what is really funny, is the friend that fell may not even know about the insurance situation, other than they know the bills were covered and assumed so by their provider/carrier.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike,

I was going to put a small 1/8 scale railroad on my property here in Burbank. Less than 500 feet! I have my live steamer and I thought it would be great for my kids and the neighbohood kids. Wow! Was I wrong! When my home insurance company agent found out I had ride-on "stuff" ( I used it in Griffith Park at LALS), he was going to cancel me right then and there. He told me "You never told me about your train stuff. OK?" He was a good guy. But insurance IS a big deal now with parks and private tracks. People look at large scale train owners ad "cash cows" and will sue at the drop of a hat. We just about lost our use of Griffith Park land for LALS a few years ago because someone (the public) sued with a scratched knee after a very minor derailment. This person was goofing off and the car derailed. She called the paramedics and then "somebody" called the local NBC affiliate to get it on the five o'clock news. AND we carry million dollar insurance! It isn't worth taking your own equipment out anymore. Lose your equipment AND your home! Can you imagine what it would have been like for Walt Disney when he had the Carolwood Pacific on his property in Holmby Hills?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Geeez, it looks like these liabilty restrictions are being primarily triggered by the fact that these are more or less "open to the public" ride-ons, like the LALS. 

Just to ask the question but is there any way to reduce the liability aspect by switching the group to a private club where members only are allowed on and those members sign legal agreememnts as to their legal liability? I know this would essentially kill the essence of groups like LALS but sheeesh these laws protecting your right to be a stupid idiot are getting worse every year. 

I dont think switching to a private line would have helped the RR in question, I think the watershed issues were bigger reasons, but I'd like a clarification that ANY ride-on line in Oregon requires a permit? including little 3.5" guage stuff? thats downright stupid! 
Also I'm rather surprised that a 20 year old conviction is still being hung around this guys neck like an albatross. If he's kept his nose clean for 20 years since, ....its not a factor in all this, just news crews trying to make the story juicier.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Insurance really seems like a plague sometimes. They can insist for whatever reason and they have lots and lots of lobbyists. I wonder also if making it a club would work?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By vsmith on 06/05/2009 10:47 AM
Just to ask the question but is there any way to reduce the liability aspect by switching the group to a private club where members only are allowed on and those members sign legal agreememnts as to their legal liability? I know this would essentially kill the essence of groups like LALS but sheeesh these laws protecting your right to be a stupid idiot are getting worse every year. 


You cannot sign away your liability, on either side...


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

I wouldn't have scout troups and thousands of guests without liability insurance. 
The government wouldn't have to force it on me. 
With well over $100,000 of rail on the ground, I doubt the cost of insurance would convince me to pull the track. 
Ralph


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

In reference to his crime. He did the crime admittedly, he paid for his crime in prison, has taken classes to educate, and hopefully give him enough information as to why he did it and why not to do it every again. In other words he did the crime and the time, Yes I would make sure he always has other adults around as a safety precaution, he even has stated he always has grown ups around so there are "No" doubts. I think everyone like him that has done all this and I believe we are talking about back in 76, for the crime, should be at least given a second chance as far as his reputation,and the crime, but if a second crime were committed and he was convicted, throw away the key, and lock him up forever. The goooberment has just gone after him, on laws written for Oregon, and are just enforcing them to the hilt, and his conviction, or someone who has an axe to grind with him has just seen fit to not let it die, and go away "EVER" Only those close, or who are on top of the situation, can really justify they're means to the end of this "little railroad" The Regal


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

If the sticking point is a license and insurance, go get a license and insurance!


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote: "The more recent Oregon man was Warrren Mumpower"




Wrong.
Spokane, Wa.
Never lived in Or.
His first conviction was on the East Coast.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

We had a pervert in our neighborhood outside of Columbus, OH in the 1970s when we are kids. He still makes the news because his perversion (he made CNN last year), while it does involve little kids, it is not technically illegal (the state of Ohio is working on making it so now) to do what he does/did, so he does not need to register. 

My folks thought it was good to have him in the neighborhood, that way we knew what a wierdo was, and that they were to be avoided.... 

He had no trains BTW.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By rpc7271 on 06/05/2009 2:47 PM
If the sticking point is a license and insurance, go get a license and insurance! 



Nice Real Railroad and I only wish. $ cost may be the issue or alternately are there venues to petition to simply make the track "private use only" ? 


Charge for a ride to cover the additional costs / mtnce? 


I loosely throw ideas in the air. I know that they have been chewed over. 


gg


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

The whole issue is sad.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Sir - I know nothing about his conviction. we all visited with them to see trains, not to discuss his past behaviour. The subject never came up.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## sschaer (Jan 2, 2008)

what's up with warren mumpower ? didn't get that. just know he was posting on the aristo forum


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Mumpower was convicted in January of participation in a global child pornography distribution ring. The sentence was handed out in April--minimum sentence is 20 years. This was his second conviction--he had been convicted before and released. I don't know what sentence he got, but it seems safe to assume he will never get out of jail. 


I agree with Steve S.--the Meadows and Lake Kathy case is sad all around. 


Somewhere on the web I saw an quote from Mumpower where he said "there is no cure for pedophilia." I have no idea of this is true or not--I hope it's not. You see this a lot though. Mr. Robinson did his time, a man ought to be able to rebuild his life after making a mistake. But I'd still get a creepy feeling taking my child to a ride-on RR run by a convicted pedophile. That might be unfair on my part. I just don't know


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Here is a link to the press release on the Mumpower (and other) convictions. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/Press%20Releases/NDFL_SEVEN-DEFENDANTS_1-14-09.pdf 

I had to look it up before I realized that this case was prosecuted by my Office, the Pensacola branch, not the Tallahassee one I work in. A dozen defendants, half pled guilty and the other half were convicted at trial. About half got life sentences. Those who pled and cooperated got between 164 months and 365 months (13 1/2 to 30 years). Mumpower's sentencing was continued after he blamed his lawyer for conviction at trial and fired him, now set in July. 

Mumpower's situation was summed up by the Magistraite in an order denying pre-trial release: 

"Specifically with regard to Defendant Mumpower, Agent Wilder testified that he has posted pornographic videos to be shared with other members of the enterprise. Additionally, a search warrant was executed at Defendant’s residence on February 29, 2008. Among the items seized were a printout titled “Kiddie Porn,” which was some sort of guide regarding viewing, possessing, or obtaining child pornography, and Defendant’s computer. A preliminary analysis of the computer revealed that it contained child pornography. Defendant was advised of his Miranda rights and subsequently admitted to his involvement in the enterprise. He noted that he was interested in 8 to 12 year old girls, and he stated that if it were not for his child pornography collection, which reduced his urges, he would molest little girls. Finally, Agent Wilder testified that Defendant was convicted in Florida in 1982 for lewd assault on two children, aged 8 and 9, and he was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment." 

"The court also considered information contained in Defendant’s Pre-Trial Services Report, which was introduced by the Government without objection. In pertinent part, it reflects that Defendant has no ties to the Northern District of Florida, and he has lived overseas, as well as in numerous states, including Washington, Arizona, Vermont, South Dakota, Virginia, Mississippi, Texas, Florida, and Oklahoma. Moreover, in addition to lewd assault conviction in Florida, Defendant advised the pre-trial services officer that he was also convicted of a charge relating to Lewd and Lascivious Conduct in Tennessee in 1979." 

These cases involve unbelieveably distrubing materials and people that you would never expect this of -- A little more than a year ago, one of my colleagues from Pensacola was arrested after flying to Detroit to have sex with a nine year old. He committed suicide in custody. A well respected state cop (and retired Colonel in the Army Reserves) was arrested after downloading child pornogrpahy on law enforcement computers. An official with the state Department of Juvenile Justice was arrested after paying two boys in foster care to be videotaped having sex with each other. A local county of less than 25,000 people had 25 pending cases involving sex with minor children, all but one involving family members. 

Sorry for the disturbing details. I am not a zealot and try to avoid these cases (so I won't have to look at the images). But however bad you thought these cases and this stuff is, it is much worse. Every image involves the sexual abuse of a child. Watching the images is a strong step towards carrying out the acts. No one suggests there is a cure. 

I love trains, but I wouldn't go near this one or this guy. 

Sorry -- didn't need to be reminded of this -- Mike


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Oregon is the 'salem witch hunt' capital when it comes to child molestation. I remember, but can't find a post on it, when a local sheriff started out arresting the local pastor in a small town, then the more they questioned the children the more people they arrested until he had charged half the town. It all turned out to be false but ruined many lives. The sheriff was fired and investigators had to completely rethink how they questioned small children. They found that children if pressured enough would say almost anything to please their questioners. There was the infamous McMartin Preschool case in California in which the McMartins were imprisoned for literally years while the case dragged on. They were ultimately released when the prosecution could not get a jury decision. Of course their lives were ruined forever. Many child molestation cases come from child custody fights during divorces as retribution by one spouse against another. This is not to belittle the subject, just to put it in proper perspective. We don't know the facts and this one was 20 years ago. Lets go to another subject.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I had a issue with the county goverment here in AZ. It was something they changed after they told me I could do it. Any way I fought them for two years. I didn't win but I sure did irratate the heck out of them. If they had a heart condtion and died I would probably be sued for wrongfull death. It was a lot o fun seeing them turn beet red. Especially the enviormental department. I walked out of there to a standing ovation from all the contractors in the lobby. They were Mean Arrogant and Rude. Rudeness only begets rudeness


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