# Hiawatha F7



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha was billed as the fastest thing on rails and it was pretty close to that recording a run at 125 MPH and regular runs over 100.
The Otto Kuhler designed F7 was built for the busy routs between Chicago and the twin cities

This huge Hudson 4-6-4 with its 84" drivers and 23.5" cylinders was made to pull heavy loads at top speed.

the model I will be doing will have the full 12 car consist in the period Art Deco styling









I started a while back when I was on vacation, my wife and I hand painted 300 1/32 people. It is hard to get people in this scale and there are only 7 different seated people available. because of this, we paint them with different clothes. hair etc.









I had a casting of a truck frame for the cars which was the right wheel base and close to the suspension but the shape was a little off. I cut two extensions above the wheels and attached them with JB weld









And then sanded and shaped them to size.









The brake chamber was turned out of 3/8" square stock and the parts were soldered with stay brite









Styrene strips are taped together to form a box to make a silicone mold









The parlor cars have high back chairs which I fashoned from four pieces of popular which I cut out on the band saw and glued together, I then painted it to keep it from sticking to the mold. there are also some lower chairs with chrome '30s style arms which I duplicated in brass and will cast in resin and paint high gloss.
Here are the masters and the molds









Here is the finished truck with ball bearing wheels
Because of the long wheelbase, I made it with 3 point suspension. the cross brace is fixed on one frame but the other pivots in the middle on a single screw which holds everything together.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This is going to be a fun journey Bill and we will all enjoy coming along with you for the ride! Thanks,

Greg


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like a great start to another beautiful project. You can bet I will be watching.


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, Charles--has the John Wilkes come east yet, and will it be at Cabin Fever and/or Diamondhead?

Larry


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Very interesting choice. Cant wait to see them in July unless you plan a few more vacations to the islands!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Jay
It wasn't exactly my choice
Came from your neck of the woods
Any guess who?


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

What is so grand about our hobby is that the variety allows for each hobbyist to enjoy one or more locomotives, road names and/or special trains.

Just to build on Bill's introduction:

The first _Hiawatha_ trains ran in 1935. By 1948, five routes carried the _Hiawatha_ name:


The _Twin Cities Hiawatha_ — the main line route from Chicago through Milwaukee to St. Paul and Minneapolis, in _Morning_ and _Afternoon_ editions;
The _North Woods Hiawatha_ — a spur route off the Chicago-Minnesota main line leading from New Lisbon to Minocqua, Wisconsin;
The _Chippewa-Hiawatha_ — connected Chicago to Ontonagon in Michigan's Upper Peninsula via Milwaukee and Green Bay, Wisconsin;
The _Midwest Hiawatha_ — used the Milwaukee Road's mainline across Illinois and Iowa to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and Omaha, Nebraska (the train split into two parts in Manilla, Iowa); and
The _Olympian Hiawatha_ — which traversed the Milwaukee mainline from Chicago-Twin Cities-Seattle/Tacoma.

The success during the steam era for the Hiawatha was due to: speed, power, beauty, lightweight construction, eye catching art deco and superlative service for the passengers.

It is most interesting to see the variety of Bill's custom builds over the. years. His level of skill and ability to achieve projects of various sizes, styles, and complexity has given almost every hobbyist something to enjoy with his posts.

Bill's work is a showcase for the hobby.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

bille1906 said:


> Jay
> It wasn't exactly my choice
> Came from your neck of the woods
> Any guess who?


Yes its pretty apparent. ; )


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep diffidently will be watching this build. Later RJD


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

So will I; the F7 certainly were some of the most outstanding speedsters of steam history.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Is the paint even dry yet on the Y6a? 

I too will be enjoying this thread?

Having seen how the John Wilkes turned out, we know in advance how this story will end . . . beautifully.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks
The decals for the Y should be here today and hopefully the brass plates within a week or two 
I will post some photos of it then.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Bill, Although I hate to be a rivet counter; sometimes it's better to say things before it's too late than after. The trucks that you showed known here as the Goerlitz truck is a typical pre war German design very different from the American design trucks of that era. The Goerlitz trucks are also much longer wheelbase than most US trucks. Different in function and aspect American trucks used an equaliser between the journals, which these dont have and the primary suspension is with helical springs on the equaliser, Not leaf springs over the journal as these German trucks feature. Why not get some real American trucks for this. David Leech may still be able to supply you with some, or some Accucraft ones if you can still find them. Earlier on when I built my lightweight cars I used some USA trains trucks with new frame stretchers and they were a bit oversize but all metal, sprung and cheap at the time $25 bucks each. I still have six allready modified if you are interested, as I have changed them with Accucraft ones. (I narrowed them as the 1/32 cars are narower than 1/29th.) 
Anyways this is not to be critical but just wanted to point this out to you.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Simon,

The Milwaukee trucks were unique and built in house at Milwaukee's shops. There were no standard "off the shelf" trucks for the Hiawatha's until the 1950's. 

Milwaukee truck photo link PDF


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Simon
You are right about the trucks and that is why I modified them to look like the prototype.
They actually experimented with several different trucks and the 1939 version were a long wheelbase truck that was close in appearance to this one. Although David's and Accucraft's trucks are nice and maybe more American, none of them look like the Hiawatha trucks. So I would have to modify them to get the look I want. We are doing 12 cars so that would be a lot of modifying.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another reference photo of the trucks that were under the Hiawatha coaches:

Hiawatha Coach trucks


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks to feedback from Simon, I have rethought the car trucks
I decided to make a scratch built master for casting.
I start by cutting out the frame and equalizing bar from MDF.
The photo shows heavy springs with only three coils. I have a spring that can be cut town for that. I insert a dowel in the middle to ease mold removal. The journals are turned from brass and drilled and riveted.
The air chamber and brakes are from my prior truck.
The raised portion around the journals is MDF and on the lower part of the equalizing bar 1/16" brass square rod rounded over at the front
Spring caps and brackets are turned and formed from brass
I turn what I think is a shock from brass and then glue everything with CA and JB Quick.









Then, I give it two coats of semi gloss paint to prevent problems in the mold making process.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Wow bill thats a spectacular job on that patern and the result will definitly be worth it. I don't know if any of those Görlitz trucks ever were used in the United States but the only candidate I can think of would be the New Haven Comet train set. Primarily because it was a US version of the Fliegender Hamburger. There were also a whole series of Belgian ones, Dutch ones, Dansih ones and French ones also all equiped with the said trucks) The truck held a diesel engine, generator and traction motors.

But bravo for that truck patern. The Milwaukee Hiawatha is worth this, such a mythical train...


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Simon
I just painted a sample of each of the seats I will be using
I notice that I have a little more sanding to do and one arm slipped an the four seat bench but I am happy with the look
The two chairs in the upper corners are for the Parlor and Beaver Tail cars
The two seat bench between them is for the main coach seating
The seats with the Art Deco arms are for the lounges and observation areas.
Color will be both the green and Old Rose which will be consistent throughout each car but will vary from car to car.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

A good dialog can lend a hand in having a successful output.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Great Art Deco seats Bille. Are those aluminum side rails laser cut? I am looking into laser cutting for some seats for my D 78 diner these were colonial style quite elegant and very intricate. I twould be a solution as these are individual chairs.


----------



## GaugeOneLines (Feb 23, 2008)

Paul Huntington built a Hiawatha and a coach set (not a 12 car set though) about 18 years ago. About six years ago he sold all the locomotives he had built due to advancing years (I was fortunate to get his rebuilt Merchant Navy), maybe someone here knows where the Hiawatha set is now?
David M-K
Ottawa


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Simon
I took the easy way out and cast them in urethane and spray painted them with silver paint
I am considering having the sides laser cut though in steel
They can do some amazing things with the laser cutters now


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

David
It would be interesting to see it or some info on the construction
Was it the F5 or the F7...Live Steam?


----------



## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul Huntington's Hiawatha was the A class 4-4-2, and if I remember correctly, a four-car train including the beavertail obs. Like pretty much all of Paul's locomotives, it's alcohol-fired, with slip-eccentric valve gear and valve chests between the frames. I believe he fabricated the body work from sheet metal, but carved the compound curves at the top of the locomotive casing and the car roofs out of wood. The current owner is a friend of mine, I can put you in touch with him if you like.

Here's a shot of the locomotive while it was still at Paul's place:


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Nice looking model
Thanks


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill....... A friend and I collaborated in restoring a very old O gauge Hiawatha. He did the restoration and painting and I did the artwork.. It a real success.. 

I can't show the images because of "owner's rights" for publication..


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Interesting Stan
I think most of the O models were the Atlantic (F7) but the cars were similar


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I have all of the seats done for the cars
here are those for the four coaches. two will be in green upholstery and two in rose









The rear of the beaver tail observation car has this configuration of seating.









I am casting 48 truck frames so I will be using more than one mold so I made a left and right mold to keep everything correct.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I have a few things going on here
One thing I did look up is where I got the idea that my German trucks would work here and I finally found the photo where they were actually used my the Milwaukee Road as an experiment.
They would have worked but the new ones are more correct,









I decided to go with laser cut steel coaches and requested quotes from two different shops.
The first one gave me a "very rough estimate" of $540.
A week later, I got a firm estimate from the second shop of over $1900. Wow, was I worried that the first one would come back as high.
This morning I got a call and it is actually less than his rough estimate - $522

He even made me a sample
Here it is with the ribs I will be using. I ordered enough strips to do the job but the ones between the windows are bull nosed so I had to cast about 350 which I made from five masters and then replicated.









The frame is made in two pieces which are bolted together with the rear section narrower to allow for the trailing truck clearance.









You can see where the extension is bolted and soldered for maximum strength.









The cylinders are constructed similar to my other builds, I like to show different machining steps in each build.
Here I am rounding off the lower corner with a 1/2" rounding over bit on the table router. The board on the right is keeping it against the fence and the pusher on top keeps it down and feeds it through









The cylinder is then cut to length, bored out to 11/16" and set in the mill for drilling/ Here the six holes have been spotted and a drop of cutting oil is placed to insure smooth drilling
The center of the cylinder is determined by turning a piece of aluminum to the cylinder bore size and then lining it up so it slides in and out without any friction.


















And here is the progress to date


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

More to come


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill, I just got back to your posts after an absence. In the photo of the left/right truck sideframes, is the brake cylinder on the top one slightly out of parallel, or is it just the camera angle?

Larry


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Larry
it does look off in this photo and also larger which can't be so I would say it is the camera angle


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Always find the techniques, tools and application of the build to be of most interest. I hope you can do a master class presentation this year at NSS on this build.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

They do have me signed up for a presentation 

What do you think (anyone) would be best... one of my builds, or something on planing and building (theory, techniques etc)


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
I would like a session on: something on planing and building (theory, techniques etc) which would also allow for reflection of various build as how the "game plan" worked out despite the challenges.


----------



## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

bille1906 said:


> I have a few things going on here
> One thing I did look up is where I got the idea that my German trucks would work here and I finally found the photo where they were actually used my the Milwaukee Road as an experiment.
> They would have worked but the new ones are more correct,


Interesting! Milwaukee is one of my favorites but I'm not deep enough in to it to know things like this.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Forrest
Here is the book I am using for reference. I got it from Charles. It is about 250 pages with great photos and drawings.









The trailing truck is a duzzie as it has two different size wheels so nothing is parallel










I trace the shape from the drawing and then copy my tracing.










Then I glue them on to 1/8" x 1-12" brass and rough out the axle slots










Then I mill the slots out with a 1/8" end mill










I then cut out the outline on the band saw and clean it up on the 1" belt sander and do some hand sanding and filing










The upper ribbing is 1/16" square stock annealed and bent to shape. The hole ribbing was done by drilling out 5/16" at 1/4" and then rounding it off with a file on the lathe and then parting it off to 1/16"
The arched ribs are drawn out and then cut on the band saw
Everything is soldered with StayBrite



















The brake cylinders and links are turned on the lathe. The levers are cut from 1/16" stock. the axle boxes have a 7 mm hole for a 4 x 7 bearing and a 1/8" hole to center the 3/32" spring. There is a 3/32" by 1/4" deep hole in the frame which will hold the spring. They are 1/4" thick with 1/8" slots cut on the table saw.










Here is the assembled truck. waiting for the face plate which will be printed.










and an idea of what it will look like in position. That wheel is not the size of the one we will be making. It is in between the large and small size.










Here is the face plate Henner drew up for me which will be 3D printed


----------



## deltatrains (Nov 25, 2010)

*You make this site worth coming to visit regularly. Thank you for all your fine work and efforts in bringing fine scale modeling to the rest of us. Peter.*


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
In between trips with a pause in the schedule to see your update. Well captured components along with a good eye to detect and layout the trailing truck according to difference front to back.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The laser cut car sides have been picked up and the doors were soldered on for increased structural rigidity.
The floors were sheared off to width at the metal yard and I cut them to length on the table saw

While I was waiting for something, i soldered on the intake and exhaust tubes for the engine
The threaded one is the exhaust and the small threaded nipple is for the lubricator line.


















Back to the cars. I want two crossmembers per car to stedy it and to be used for the roof fasteners.
I make a jig on the mill with an end mill and then drill and tap to 2-56 holes in each end.









I then screw in a 2-56 bolt and wrap a piece of 1/32" stay brite around it and solder it in place.



















I snip off the head and sand flush. I now have a threaded stud on the inside to attach my crossmember to.









I need a template so all of the ribs are the same and parallel. I measure the drawings to get the proper placement and cut slots in a 1/32" brass sheet. The idea was to be able to lay the template down and then insert the glued strips in the slots but it didn't work as the strips stuck to the template and were dislodged when it was removed, I decided to widen the strips somewhat on the saw but that was a disaster as the blade caught on the edge of the slot and I ended nipping the tip of my finger. So I went to plan B which was to use the template to draw lines for the strips.









Here is the template and a side with the lines.


















The ribs are cut straight at the doors and car ends but between the windows they are bull-nosed.
I made this tool by cutting into the grinding wheel with an old carbide tool to get a half-round groove.









Using the tool, I made some patterns and cast about 350 small ones for the coach and parlor windows and another 50 or so for some of the ones which were a little further apart. Most of the cars had some of various sizes so they were done to suit. I laid strips out and marked and cut them and then rounded them off in the tool and cleaned them up with 150 sand paper.









Here is the completed RPO which is the first one I did.









Below at the bottom is the Beaver tail which will have some soldering to be done so no strips yet. Above that is a coach ready to prime and then an assortment of the primed sides.









I started on the Beaver tail today
I have plenty of photos and an O scale version to use for perspective.
You can see the crossmember at the top of the car










After careful measurements, the rear face and window frames are cut out in the mill









Then the copper sides are cut, annealed and bent to shape and checked for size etc.









They are then silver soldered to the face and again checked for size and positioning.
Tomorrow, the hard stuff begins, forming the top and bottom.


----------



## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

Looking really great Bill. I enjoy reading through your comments and seeing your craftsmanship.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Question, Bill . . .

I note that you silver solder the coach parts.

Is there a reason you prefer to silver solder rather than to use something like Stay Brite 8?

Are there places where you need to bond steel to brass, for example?

I am very much enjoying the thread as well.

~ Joe


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Joe
I do it for several reasons
1. when I am doing many solder joints close together, I always start with silver solder so as not to melt the prior joint. Once the joint is braised with silver solder, it requires a higher temp to melt it than it did on the first one

2. Silver solder flows better than soft solder. Even Stay Brite

3. It is much stronger especially when doing but joints

Stay Brite works fine for brass to steel and I used it to join the copper curved sides to the steel sides but before doing that, I silver soldered a brass strip in the inside to align everything and make for a stronger joint


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

Bill; thank you.

One more question! 

Do you use a torch or a resistance soldering unit when you use silver bearing soft solder?

I've been using a resistance soldering unit for about a year and I find that one can put the heat right where you want it without damaging nearby soldered items. But I haven't built anything major like you are doing and I have not tried Stay Brite for seams.

~ Joe

Edit: I have no experience with silver solder (yet) but I will give it a go just for the shear joy of it. ;-)


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Glad you only got a "nick" from the saw and seriously hurt.
Well laid out plan and application for the coach sides. Getting the rib sides true and aligned was a chore that you addressed properly with a guide.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Charles
Joe
I use a torch. I tried resistance soldering once and it didn't work. It was probably too light for the job I was doing.
I use Stay brite for my long seams in tenders where it needs to be water tight and it works great.
I use the 1/32" size and lay a strip all the way down the seam and then hit it with a small torch. I always use their flux also
Silver solder wouldn't work on something like this as the heat would cause the long sheet brass to buckle.
After a while you find out which is best to use by the parts in the scrap bin.

Try silver solder. You will like it.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

bille1906 said:


> Thanks Charles
> Joe
> I use a torch. I tried resistance soldering once and it didn't work. It was probably too light for the job I was doing.
> I use Stay brite for my long seams in tenders where it needs to be water tight and it works great.
> ...


I have some silver solder on hand, along with flux, but I just haven't used it yet. ;-)

I have an American Beauty resistance solder set with two sets of probes, tweezers style and alligator clip and probe. I tend to clamp the alligator clip to the body of the thing I am working on near the joint and then pinpoint the probe to the precise area where the heat needs to go. After awhile you get a feel for how to set the current. They even have high-power (1,100, 1,800 & 3,000 watt) units for brazing and silver soldering. Refrigeration guys use resistance soldering as well. Mine is 250 watts max.

250 Watt Infinitely-Variable Resistance Soldering Power Unit

Will give silver soldering a try.

~ Joe


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Yes
The one I tried out was a toy compared to this one
Perhaps I will try one
This would have been helpful in the fin soldering which I will post later
Thanks


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

bille1906 said:


> Yes
> The one I tried out was a toy compared to this one
> Perhaps I will try one
> This would have been helpful in the fin soldering which I will post later
> Thanks


Bill, I don't want to distract further from your build thread, but what I'll do is resurrect my Chapelon Nord thread soon to show a couple of items I've done using resistance soldering.

Your work is an inspiration and I appreciate your sharing it with us.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Well, I finished the rear of the beaver tail and got the ribs glued on and primed and I have to say that I am very pleased with the final result.
I cut a hunk of 4x4 to the curvature of the rear face from the scale drawing I have and then anneal and bend the face to shape to the block (another reason for silver soldering as soft solder would have melted before the piece got red hot)










The face is then soldered on with staybrite.
before starting, I cut two blocks for the roof section. I glued a piece in the bottom of the first piece and cut it to fit as shown.









The window frames are bent to fit the face. Bondo is used to fill cracks and low spots and a vertical line is drawn for the fin.









Using the drawings as a guide, i cut out the fins on card stock and then glue it to a brass sheet and cut to shape.









Fins are held in place and trimmed where necessary.










The vertical fin has to be perfectly placed as it now has slots which hold the horizontal fins it has to be at the right height and perfectly vertical.
I cut a slot in the roof with a hack saw and attach the fin in with JB Quick which will hold it in place while I solder it.
I had to do the bondo prior to attaching the fins but I made sure there was enough metal to solder to









The vertical and lower fins are soldered on. Note the V shaped drop down on the lower fin which was silver soldered on prior to mounting.


















The three upper fins are soldered on by first measuring the lower one and after soldering using shims to get the proper spacing for the next two,









The upper trim piece is 1/16" brass square stock annealed and bent to shape. A portion of the roof is chiseled out to receive the piece









And finally it is finished and primed.




























And a couple of people are added to complete the look


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Bill I wanted to ask you what the ribs on the car sides are made from? The reason is that I added some styrene strips to my David Leech cars a few years ago and used a strong double edge tape to hold them in place (the kind use by machinists to hold parts, which they mill). Well after a few afternoon in the sun they expanded much more quikly than the aluminum body of the car and warped. I finally solved the problem when I found a shop that could guillotine for me some 3MM wide stips of aluminum which I epoxied onto the bodies instead of the styreen ones. So beware of styrene on metal in the sun.
Besides that: Fantastic project Bill!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Simon
These are attached with spray on adhesive and hopefully the steel sides will expand less than the aluminum ones and that the aluminum expansion was the problem
It is almost 70 today so I think I will set a side out in the sun to see what happens.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow! That is one fancy tail end. Did you have any trouble with charring the wooden roof while soldering on parts?


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

No problem with the roof but I did get a little too close to the bondo at one point and had to sand it off and re-apply it


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill;

As always, your work is wonderful and this thread is fascinating. I don't know whether anyone else has noticed this, but when looking directly into the rear viewing deck of the observation car, I keep expecting it to say, "Take me to your leader, earthling!"

It really does resemble some kind of extraterrestrial's face.

Best wishes,
David Meashey


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Yes it is really a Flash Gordon type of train like the PRR T1. Its too bad that the war put an end to all this streamliner era. As a set designer I often noticed that our sets had a "face" to them, like an arcitectural mask. I used to love going up to the gallery up top of the theater during rehearsals and seeing the set look like the model I had made a few month earlier. Another classic revived in gauge one Bill!


----------



## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, I have one Flash Gordon vehicle in the motive power mix. My Geneva & New Bern Railroad's "Fast Mail" car was made from a one liter sparkling water bottle, a ducted fan drive, and LGB ball bearing wheels. The motor on the ducted fan drive is only rated to 9.9 volts, but I have never had enough straight track to open a throttle that high. It's kind of silly, but fun to run.









Sorry to divert from the main thread.

Regards,
David Meashey


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

This was an Otto Kuhler design and to many one of Milwaukee Road's finest accomplishments. They were the signature car of the Hiawatha line. The fins added structural strength, provided shade from the sun and greatly improved the cars looks.
Kuhler repeated the Beaver-Tail's basic fin design when styling the Lehigh Valley's John Wilkes.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Duck Dodgers and the 24 1/2 Century in particular Marvin the Martian character fits well with the Beaver tail design!

In earnest, the train design looks towards the future and projecting a modern mode of transportation.


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

That is coming along very nicely, Bill. Those classics make such wonderful models.

I have a friend here in Prescott that is quite active in the Historical Society and has done a number of early O gauge MKE restorations which we've helped with. 

Most of his O gauge layout is MKE stuff.


----------



## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

A point worthy of note is that a 4-6-4 on the Milwaukee Road wasn't a Hudson. The Milwaukee intended to have the first 4-6-4s in the United States, but a little touch of bankruptcy in 1926 stalled the project. NYC got its prototype 4-6-4, 5200, in 1927. The president of the NYC chose to name the Hudson, and the Canadian roads were happy to name theirs after Hudson's Bay. On the Milwaukee Road a 4-6-4 was a Baltic, named after the European 4-6-4s.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Reg
I guess it is just a point of note
Here is where I got the notion it was a Hudson'

Under the Whyte notation for the classification of steam locomotives, 4-6-4 represents the wheel arrangement of four leading wheels, six powered and coupled driving wheels and four trailing wheels. In France where the type was first used, it is known as the Baltic while it became known as the Hudson in most of North America.

The Milwaukee Road's class F7 comprised six (#100–#105) high-speed, streamlined 4-6-4 "Baltic" or "Hudson" type steam locomotives built by Alco in 1937–38


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

This strikes me as a bid odd . . .

If you go to the French language site for the SNCF 232-U1, clearly it is referred to as a "Hudson."

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/232_U_1

If you scroll over the "Hudson" you are sent to another site where the difference between a Hudson and a Baltic is explained in French.

*"Baltic* est un type de locomotive à vapeur dont les essieux ont la configuration suivante (de l'avant vers l'arrière) :


un bogie porteur à 2 essieux
3 essieux moteurs
un bogie porteur à 2 essieux.
 *Hudson* est un type de locomotive à vapeur dont les essieux ont la configuration suivante (de l'avant vers l'arrière) :


un bogie porteur à 2 essieux
3 essieux moteurs
un bissel porteur à 2 essieux."
The French seem pretty convinced that SNCF 232 U.1 is a "Hudson" because the trailing axles are on an articulated "Bissel" rather than a bogie.

"A *bissel* is a carrier axle in addition to the drive axles to distribute the mass of a locomotive on the rails, and installed in the form of an articulated train able to orient relative to the frame of the machine to facilitate 'inscription in the curves." < - - Google translation, nearly adequate. 

There may be more to the distinction between a Hudson and a Baltic other than whether the loco was born in the USA or in Europe?

At Cite du Train in Mulhouse, the French refer to 232 U.1 (complete with bissel) as a "Hudson."

Carry on. 

~ Joe


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Many wheel arrangements of a given locomotive had several "labels" such as 4-8-4 were known as Northern Pacific, Niagara, Greenbriers, etc.

In keeping with the thread, the F7 4-6-4 on paper in 1925 were noted as the "Milwaukee type." 

The company efforts for speedlined equipment was denote with the term of speedliners. Speedliners denotation was a reality in regards to fast passenger service and records set. 

In 1940 the Morning Hiawatha had a schedule passenger route covering 78.3 miles in 58 minutes average speed from start to stop was 81 mph topping 100 mph in sections of the route.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I used Poplar wood for the roofs. It is a stable wood that takes paint well.
I buy it from the Hardwood supplier in the area. It comes oversize (13/16") which allows for trimming to 3/4"
First I cut the pieces to length. Then on the jointer, I get a straight edge and run one side through to remove any warpage which may be there. I then rip them to the width needed on the table saw and finally run them through the thickness planner to get them all at exactly 3/4"

From the Hiawatha book, I have a roof profile which I print out to scale. A couple of sample passes on the router gives me the correct height to set the 1/2" round-over bit in the router and I run them all through









I measure the angles of the top curvature and find that one pass at nine degrees and one at five will do the trick.









The nine degree cut is first









And then the five degree one.









A palm sander cleans up the transition points. I start with 80 grit and work down to 220
I then prime the new roof and prime part of the beaver tail to get an idea of how it will liik when painted.









Dennis cut out the diaphragm plate on the laser and 5/8" ribbon is used for the diaphragm.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Dennis cut the expansion links on the CNC mill. This is a design for the Walschaerts that I have found to be easy to make and because of the double ball bearing design, it has no slack and should last forever.









The support bracket is made to match the prototype.









Back to the cars. The roofs are made from 3/4" poplar wood and are held in place with two 4-40 screws. As the screw hole has to be perfectly aligned, I mark it and drill it from the bottom. I cut the tip off a pencil and then drilled a 1/16" hole in the cut side. Now I have a right angle marker for the task.









We want the roofs to me smooth so I will use this socket head screw and countersink it. To get the proper countersink, I made this D bit which bottoms out at the right depth.









Here is the screw in place. It will be painted the same color as the top









The undercarriage units are cut to shape. the door outlines are done on the mill with a countersink tool and the vents are laser cut. They are now primed and ready for paint.


















The interiors are now finished. From the top down are: 
Express Tap (cocktail lounge) 
Parlor with men's and women's lounges and drawing room
Beaver Tail Observation 
Diner
Coach with men's and women's lounges (there are four of these)

The white strip on the coach is an LED light bar which will reflect light off the roof



















I still have some door frames to add


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Amazing detail. Love the interiors!


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
I like your "pencil point" precision technique. Impressive interiors for the coaches. Excellent design work on the Walschaerts parts.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Great coaches! I wish my Walschaerts parts came out as beautiful as yours! I guess I need to spend more time with the file.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Winn but most of the beauty work id done by my friend Dennis Mead in his CNC mill
Prior to him getting it up and running, I spent many an hour on the rotary table and fileing


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Sorry boys to back pedal like this, but somehow I had missed a good deal of this thread... So please don't mind my catching up with a few points that relate to older posts, by Bill and others: 
First - I was very happy that you showed us how you work out the quarter round on the router Bill, with the feather boards both on the side and over the top, thanks a lot as this is certainly the best way to make them. 
Second - A question: Is it to prevent heat transfer to the frames that you set the cylinders off from the frames with spacers? so the cylinders don't loose too much heat.
Three - Also I was amazed to learn thanks to you, and more knowledgeable Milwaukee fans, that the Milwaukee (whose city had a large population of German emigrants) actually experimented with its own variant of the Goerlitz truck design standard on DRG.

Four - about the French Baltic and Hudson: It is true that Gaston Du-Bousquet (now you guys will know the reason behind my pseudo) designed what was the first high speed mainline 4-6-4 which he called Baltic, mainly because it was to haul the Nord Express which ran from Paris to St Petersburg then in 1911 and was often overloaded. Although it seems that the Prussian T-18 tank loco and perhaps some British tank loco may have been the first with that wheel arangement. This exceptional loco was way ahead of its time and extremly powerful, but its designer died before they were introduced and they were never completly de bugged, alas and as current needs did not need that power later Nord designers (Asselin) opted for a lighter pacific which was actually an extended 4-6-0 with a very long and narrow firebox. 

When De Caso designed his 4-6-4 some 27 or so years after, he had been mesmerised by a footplate ride on the German 05 class. He also designed his with a very original bissel truck which had no pivot, thus clearing entirely the underframe for the ash pan. As this loco had a wide firebox in opposition to the NORD tradition of long and narrow ones, I guess he felt he could shorten the rear end so that they could fit on the contemporary turntables and transfer tables. He definitly specified Hudson as he didn't want people to associate them with the 2 Du-Bousquet Baltics which had never been fully de bugged and were retired by then.

Also of interest and much more pertinent to this thread is the fact that André Chapelon who traveled to the USA in 1938 to study and approve many american practices (which he later incorporated into his futur standard designs, alas, never materialised). Had a footplate trip on one of the Milwaukee Baltics and felt that it was the most advanced design he saw in the USA at the time.
I always wondered if he didn't have some influence with the designers in Altoona and Cheyenne about draughting arangements notably on the FEFs, T1s and Chalengers and Big boys. The then adopted practice in America was with tight exhaust so locos would draught well and never needed ear mufs, afterwards there does seem to be an evolution in US designs. Unfortunatly we may never know.
Anyways thanks Bill for these wonderfull teutorials that indeed make this forum so fabulous.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Simon
Thanks for the historical info
Yes, the stainless bolts and spacers are to minimize heat transfer to the frame. The design also makes for easier and cleaner steam piping.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

While I was waiting for the paint to come in, I started on the boiler
I start by cutting out the firebox sides from a 2-1/2" copper pipe and after annealing them, they are bent out and straight down. I then cut the flue tubes to length and make the throat sheet. As you can see it has raised sides for positioning and is raised in the middle to support the dry pipe.









After silver soldering the tubes to the throat sheet, I check the back to make sure the solder has penetrated through and around each tube.









The throat sheet and tubes are then soldered in to the main tube and the front tube sheet and backhead are made to fit the main tube.









Here you can see the dog-leg fitting I use for the sight glass. the tube on the left goes inside just above the crown sheet and on the right in the lower portion which allows for the lower sight glass fittings to be below the crown sheet.









Back to the cars, several hundred window frames are painted. they will be the last thing to go in.









The paint has arrived and the base coat of Milwaukee Orange goes on.









Here I am on the middle of painting the Maroon stripes. In the front are some just painted. To the left are some masked off and ready for paint and behind that is where I am doing the masking. it takes a while to mask because of the ribs and the transition to the doors. I am using 1/2" and 1/4" tape.









And finally they are all painted.









The striker plates are painted Maroon










The beaver tail has these itty-bitty marker lights with bullet shaped lenses. Henner drew up a 3D CAD of the mounting bracket and we had it printed by Shapeways.I turned the lenses from acrylic rod in the lathe. the bulbs are 1.5 v grain of wheat .


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, looked like an assembly line... it's all beautiful and it's not even finished.

Again, thanks for the pictures and build log.

Greg


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Glad the paint has arrived and allowed you to make progress: very attractive.
Would be informative to those who do not venture into boiler making to highlight your process in determining and building a boiler. For example how you layout the solder to make sure the solder has penetrated through.
Well done with the flues and soldering.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Charles
I try not to repeat every step, so the ones that I have shown on other builds usually get left out. Perhaps, I could combine several boiler builds into a new thread which would be more helpful especially for newer members. I could then refer to that thread on future boiler builds.

I wonder if there would be much interest in something like that

Charles,
One other thing. When I first got into the hobby and knew nothing at all, I read every thread in Dwight's "informative Threads" sticky, especially yours and Dave Hottmann's.
You and Ryan probably repair more engines than anyone else and have shared your knowledge freely,
I know it is harder to post photos etc on this site now, than in the past, but the little tricks you share on your web site like where to find the hidden screws when taking an engine apart are invaluable.
The Flicker photos are great but sometimes an explanation is needed also
Thanks for sharing these here in the past and please keep more coming.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I doubt that I will ever build a boiler from scratch but the tips you post are a great resource. A tutorial would be a great help when doing repairs or mods. Those cars are fantastic! Did you have a special rattle can paint made?


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

No Winn
That is actually Scalecoat. It is the first time I have used it. they were the only ones who had the actually Milwaukee Road orange so we got all of the colors from them so that everything would be compatible. So far, everything is working well. Not much instructions on the can. I had to call them to make sure how long to wait before masking and repainting (24 hours). I did a test panel with the two colors and then decaled it and clear coated it with Rustoleum 2X clear gloss and no problems with lifting or crinkling like I have seen with the rattle can paint I get here in Calif.


----------



## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Bill,

Great interest here in Wisconsin on this project...too bad you don't have a picture of an order form so I can buy one and the coaches too!

Thanks for posting,
Sam


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I am back on the cars now
The diaphragms are made with 5/8" ribbon.
I start with wood spacer strips. They are the ones with a black stripe.
the wide one is to clamp the striker plate.









Here is the assembly clamped together









The ribbon is attached at the bottom and you can see it coming around the top. the shiny part is a bead of Quick Hold (an E6000 product)










And the finished products


















The Beaver Tail took over two hours to mask off 1/8" & 1/4" tape was used.









And the decals are done on the 24 sides
Next up is the clear coating, window glazing, window frames and assembly
I am trying to finish them this week.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
The paint and decals are icing on the cake for the excellent coach/car work you have accomplished.


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

I know it's a bit OT, but where is the John Wilkes trainset these days?

Larry


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Larry
Charles is the proud owner of that set
As he will be of this one


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

All 12 cars are finished
I am building the boxes this weekend and am now waiting for the glue to dry on the second box.

The beaver Tail has "Hiawatha" in brass script on both sides of the fin which was illuminated by two bulbs. I used three amber micro sized ones on each side. the script will be in etched brass.
The marker lights are installed and wired up.


















The interiors show off the swivel high back chairs in the Parlor and Beaver Tail









The kitchen and pantry









And dining area 









All 12 are ready for boxing


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Glad the paint supplies were enough to see the wonderful color combination on the cars: very impressive!


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you get to run them around a layout and see the whole train before you ship them?

Greg - 68


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Greg
I am boxing them up just to have room in the shop while I make the engine and tender.

This is a joint project between Charles and I and I will be handing them over to him in Sacramento.

When the engine and tender are done, I will bring the whole set out back and get a video of it running.
The whole consist will be about 33' long so it should be impressive.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We will be looking forwards to those pictures and video with bated breath!

Thanks Bill,

Greg


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Gorgeous, Bill........ Just gorgeous..!!!!!!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Stan
Your gold decals really set things off


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Since the cars are large and heavy, I want the boxes to be light but strong.
I am using 3/16" birch ply for everything except the ends which are 1/2" Baltic birch

I don't know if you ever heard the saying - you can never have too many clamps - but that is a true statement.










All 12 cars are now boxed up awaiting the tops










Batting is a cotton base material which is very soft on the outside and if you get the premium brand, it is strong on the inside.

I attach it with spray on adhesive.
wood blocks are made to conform to the KD couplers and glued in place to limit forward & aft movement.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Very nice boxes. I may have to swipe your design. I getting tired of plastic cases that don't really fit very well and don't stack well.


----------



## Steve Ciambrone (Feb 25, 2014)

Maybe I just need to use more clamps to make my boxes square.

Steve


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

bille1906 said:


> Thanks Stan
> Your gold decals really set things off


Glad the new set worked out so well, Bill.. The entire set is masterpiece... 

It's so nice to be a part of that for you and Charles..


----------



## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, that entire consist is simply a work of art. And that beavertail observation car just takes my breath away.

Looking forward to seeing it all running in Sacramento!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I had run out of the maroon paint on the last car I painted and received more the other day
The side rods get the maroon paint in the slots.

The color in the photo is off but it is the same color as on the cars.

To the rods that Dennis cut on the CNC mill, I reamed them out to accept M 5x9 ball bearings on the main drive axle and M5 x 1/4" bronze bushings on the outer axles where the larger size bearings would have been out of scale. There is less strain on these two axles so the bearing bronze bushings should hold up just fine.










The first decals we ordered came with a black outline around the gold lettering. Unfortunatly, the black didn't show up against the dark maroon. We replaced them with solid gold ones which worked out perfectly

I came up with the idea of using the black outlined decals against the light colored birch tops.
They look pretty good if I do say so myself.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Great usage of the decals on the boxes.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks
I almost threw them away and then decided they were too nice, not to use them for something


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, that is great... Great use of those that didn't work on the letterboard.. Looks fantastic.. 

So glad the new ones worked so well..


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I finished the boiler. I didn't take many shots of the build as it is the same procedure as my oyher builds.
Here is the solder job on the crown sheet which is the trickiest part of the job.









And the finished boiler


















The burner box is made from 1/16" brass plate and is silver soldered together. The angled stand-off's direct some of the gas to the rear of the box to even out the burn.









The ceramic material is very soft so I cut it a little oversize on the band saw and then with 60 grit sand paper trim it to an exact push fit. The round studs keep the material from going down too far. I then seal around the top with hi-temp silicone sealant









The boiler is ready for the burner to be installed.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Very pretty boiler.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
I see a bit more of the frame and components in the background....any other frame photos for the album?


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Charles
Yes I am working on the frame now

The pilot wheels (grey) and the rear truck wheels are turned to scale on Dennis' lathe and painted









The rear truck wheels are fitted with axles and 4 x 7 ball bearings









Walschaerts gear with expansion link and combination lever are made and adjusted. reverse arms are made and installed.









Reversing servo is installed. Note the close clearance of the reverse arms between the frame and linkage









And the full frame


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Lovely valve gear.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
I appreciate the update and photos. Glad the project is "on track" and the drivers are being finalized.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I finished the axle pump this morning
I have been making this type pump for a while but haven't drawn it up yet. It is the same as prior pumps but it has both fittings at the bottom which allows for easy removal.
To do this, I have to use a cross port for the outlet which is plugged later.
Here is a sketch of the pump body using 1/8" balls and a 5/16" piston. I use the larger piston as the ball bearing eccentric limits the stroke to just over 1/4"











Here is the bottom view of the installed pump









The top view shows the two adjustable ball stops and the soldered plug closing off a port


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill 
Thanks for the drawing along with photos of the progress in building the pump.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

The boiler needs two wraps. An inner one which wraps all of the way around which will be used to attach things and an outer one which has straight sides

I start by making the smokebox and the inner wrap. I then solder the mounting brackets to the sides of the wrap.

The lower fairing is below the boiler in the photo









Here is the fitting I use to connect the 3/16" superheater tube to the 5/32" copper steam supply tube. It is easily installed or removed with a long allen wrench









The outer wrap and the start of the nose cone are installed









In the mean time, Dennis has finished the tender trucks on the CNC mill









And the funny looking return cranks









The pilot truck is made and the wheels painted.









The 84" hollow boxpok wheels are received from Charles and bead blasted.









And painted









And more progress on the plate work


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I am in awe of your compound curved metal work. I like your superheater connection. I may have to copy it.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Excellent progress. Glad you got the drivers and were successful in painting the accent portions. Great profiling on the shroud. Got to mention how well the tender truck frame were done.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello Bill: As always I find reading your posts fascinating. On the precedent page (11) you reveal a very interesting solution for connecting the superheater to the main steam tube; This solution seems to be just what I have been looking for to replace those horible, yet so practical Banjo joints.

The reason goes back to my main interest in going into live steam (and incidently one for why I am sticking to gauge one and not moving up, like many of my friends, to larger live steam scales). That reason is my fascination for the writing, theory and practice of the French engeneer André Chapelon.

André beleived at the dawn of the streamline era, that what was of foremost importance in improving the steam locomotive 's performance was to streamline the passage of steam from the dome (or regulator) to the cylinders and straight through to the exhaust; and not the outer streamlining. At the time the main problem with high speed steam locomotive performance was getting the steam out of the cylinders and exhausting with an efficient vacuum created in the smokebox, with the least back pressure. He is famous for having founds an efficient solution to that problem. However his research did not limit itself to that single problem, he also studied the pipework through superheaters, and from the collector to the cylinders and the valves themselves. 
As depression loomed on France railways he provided simple solutions for greatly improving the performance of locomotives dating from pre WW1 era, that hardly cost more than the usual general overhaul that they were planned to have carried out on them. Which is why he was such a success with both the crews and the management.
He would certaily have frowned on banjo joints used on steam delivery pipework, and I was looking for a better substitute since years. It seems that you have found it, and I would be very happy to hear how it works out in time. I suppose that you planned stainless steel alan bolts for that. 

But it seems to be the way to go at least on important joints. But also on things like the water level conection to the boiler, I suspect these to be more the cause of bad water level indications than just the diameter of the tube, as in early Asters like the PLM pacific where they were not used you got very good water level indication with glass tubes of the same diameter.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Yes I have used this connection on other engines with success and SS socket head bolts will be used.
I don't like any right angle fittings but the inside of the fitting is 3/16" throughout so the restriction should be minimal.
The biggest problem I find with banjo bolts is that the through hole and slot are usually quite restrictive. I try to have a hole at least as large as the pipe ID. it is supplying.

You are right about having a free flow of steam to. and especially from, the cylinders for peak power


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I have been busy since my last post

Here is a little gizemo Dennis made up for adjusting the return lever length. Only a few thousands can cause the forward or reverse timing to be off so this is used for the final valve adjustments.










The firebox covering has four plates with raised portions on two sides. I need to solder 1/32" square stock to each small plate.
i cut a 90 degree V in a fire brick and lay the pieces in to keep them aligned.









Some rivet embossing and the plates are soldered on









Now comes the hardest part of the job.
The curved grill on the front of the skyline casing needs to be made up of several parts.
I first cut slots on an aluminum bar with a 1/16" slitting saw. I then cut the profile out on the band saw, sand with decreasing grits, and finally polish on the polishing wheel.









The inside curvature is done on the drum sander to get it right at the bottom. It is held in place with a temporary screw while I make the sides.
The sides are three piece. The middle piece starts with a piece of 3/16" square stock that is rounded off on one corner. It is then sanded to a tapered shape, annealed and bent to match the contour. The side and top pieces are sheet brass silver soldered on and filed and sanded to shape.









The headlight rim is angeled but the light needs to be level.
I turn the rim on the lathe and then set it in the chuck at an angle while I bore it out for the light









here you can see the light is level inside the rim. An aluminum ring surrounds the rim









The headlight is hooked up and tested. I have an amber bulb on order which will replace the white one.









Casing detail is added 









The chassis running smoothly at 3 psi in both directions and has plenty of power and speed









The double sprung rear truck is installed.









The valve gear is finished with the exception of the grooved return link









Top view with fitting installed for air testing









Boiler is set on chassis for photos


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Wow Bill! 
This is surely going to be a killer with 100 mph track speed. Your craftwork is fantastic.It is looking better and better. This is one of the most succesfull and speedy steam locomotive of all times. But I also loved the Y6c which wasn't very speedy but sure was one of the mlost efficient haulers over gradiant. I wish Accucraft and Aster could keep up with you!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Simon
I was a little worried about the front grill work but it came out as well as I expected it to
The painting and decalling will present some more challenges but I think the hardest part is now behind me.
That little grill took two full days.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Awesome stuff Bill !! You get better with each build! My compliments!!


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Congratulations on the front end (along with the progress). That was well done. Along with the front end its grill I would guess that another challenge would the the cab. The engine is sleek with only a few appliances, pipes and throttle on the exterior that allows the "art deco" design to stand out. Great detailing of the firebox. The headlight design shows your attention to the correct aspect of the application. The tender might keep you busy with the rear drag beam and all the pipes/hoses.
You made my day with photos of the tool, running gear, drivers, trailing truck along with the overall shell work on display.
Thanks


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I finished the cab this week and it came out pretty good

Here I am checking the fit of the window frames which will go in after the Polycarbonite glazing. They are a bit tight because of the paint thickness so I will sand them down a bit as they will be painted also.
The cab is brass except for the front curved piece which is .040 copper plate. I use copper here as it is softer and easier to bend than brass










I want to get the front wrap around detail laid out before I paint it. I start by laying masking tape across the area which will have the application.
I then draw the detail, remove the tape and tape it to some card stock and cut out the profile.










And then I check it for fit 









Here is the loco so far


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Just returned from a trip to find the progress on the Hiawatha F7 to be a continuation of the fine work done thus far. The cab had a bit of complexity to the form to which your efforts were on target. Very impressive craftsmanship on the cab and tie-in with the skyline.
Thanks for the update.


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

You know Bill that return lever adjutment jig is just what was used by Bing for Basset Lowke before WW 1. My first live steam engine ever, back in 1975, which I found and purchased from a colleague at work at a very reasonable price was a Bing for Basset Lowke Great Northern railway (of England) Ivatt Atlantic. It had the rod leading to the piston type valve was in two parts adjustable with a couple of scews to hold it in place through a slot in one rod. The other end was to the excentric between the driver and the frame (Thus outside the frame) . A very neat arrangement for the pot belied loco which I exchanged for an ASTER PLM pacific. My first HP internally fired loco. As luck would have it when the collector who made the exchange passed away, it found itself in the hands of another friend who owns it now. I offered to finish the restoration of the paintwork which I had carried out before the exchange, at a time when I didn't own a lathe and did the three misssing buffers for him last year. I also made some photos on my pike which wasn't finnished when I exchanged it in 1978.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I disassembled everything and painted it up this week
I still need to do a few things and am waiting for some parts but for the most part, the engine is finished.
I will start on the tender next week


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

That is gorgeous!!! Fantastic job of painting.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Glad that the paint worked out (color/application)and certainly makes the locomotive impressive along with the style.
The hollow box pox drivers were worth the wait and the painting you did gave them that extra touch. The parts yet to be applied with give it the final mechanical features along with the marker lights.


----------



## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Bill, I remember you had a previous thread asking about paints. If that question was for this engine, what brand of paint did you end up using on the Hiawatha?

BTW, that loco is turning out beautifully!

Ross Schlabach


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Ross
I used Scale Coat on the engine which worked out well

I have had problems with two tone jobs in the past with the masking tape pulling the paint off when it is removed. This was mostly on brass with rattle can paint

The other problem I have had is the paint will lift (cause a crinkling) the prior paint. The can instructions usually give a re-coat window of 24 hours to 2-7 days where you cant re-coat it, but I have found that here in CA it is much longer and can be up to a month before a safe re-coat.

On the John Wilkes, I used automotive two part paint with no problem

Bead blasting brass helps the adhesion but can distort the sheet brass. So I usually blast the heavier parts and sand the others with 320 paper. brass starts oxidizing immediately so it needs to be primed or painted right after the cleaning. I use self etching primer which helps a little. Jason recommended Fusion primer which I used here.

It seems like the slower drying paints work much better than the fast drying ones. Scale Coat takes a couple of hours to dry to the touch but is fully cured in 24 and can then be recoated with Scale Coat. I tried to recoat with some Doplicolor Engine Enamel but it too crinkled at 24 hours so it needs more than a 24 hour cure if you are going to go over it with a hotter (fast drying) paint 

As the skyline casing gets very hot, it is done in Engine Enamel


----------



## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill have you tried blasting with walnut shells ,cleans the surfaces without distorting brass and gives a nice grip for the paint!!
Manfred


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Manfred
I did try walnut shells but they weren't working well so I went to glass beads. I have since replaced the blast nozzle with a better one so I will reload the shells and try it out again
Regulating the pressure helps too


----------



## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Forgot to mention:The dental industries{ ZAHN Dental }uses very fine glass beads for cleaning precious and non
precious metal!


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I have been lax on my posting and photo taking but the engine is just about ready for track testing

The tender was made in similar fashion to my other builds. One thing that was different was the tight bend at the top and corners.

I used my home made bending tool which is an angle iron supported by a grooved piece of hardwood, rather than using a 90 degree blade for a sharp bend, I used a 3/8" piece of stainless rod



















I received the marker lights from Shapeways. Henner did a 3-D cad drawing of it and Shapeways made it in hi-res plastic. It is lit with a 1.5v grain of wheat bulb.










The hand pump is made and the right angle fittings which go through the floor of the tender are turned out. The o-ring is to seal it where it goes through the floor keeping the tender water tight.










The fuel tank is made and installed as well as the mounting plate for the hand pump.



















The coupling connections are made so that the engine and tender are as close as possible for the streamlined effect









Here is the axle pump and the electrical plugs










The reverse servo and the adjustable lighting voltage regulator









Here is the tubing routed under the tender. Top to bottom are: Hand pump water, gas, bypass water, tank warmer










I cut some blocks out to fit the skyline casing and glued some towel material on to support the engine while working on it.











Here is the inside of the cab.










and the tender










The tender still need some work. I goofed on the black and made it too high so I will need to repaint it to line up with the cab but other than that, I am happy with the look.



















The cab glazing and window frames are installed.









lights



















and the set


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Given all your work and time you have put into this project. Should be quite rewarding for you to have the opportunity to steam up the engine and enjoy some running time. Appreciate the update and photo insights of the build.


----------



## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

A truly magnificent work, Bill, a masterpiece in fact.


----------



## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

that is awesome. Just AWESOME


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks guys
The positive feedback keeps me posting on the site


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
For me you are one of the few reason I seek this site. The skill and knowledge your share makes it worth a peek every once in awhile. 

Really appreciate your contributions to the hobby.


----------



## StackTalk (May 16, 2014)

I read, study, and enjoy each Bill Allen thread though I may not often post comments.


----------



## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Bill I agree with the others, your posts are what I always look at (over and over again sometimes) your seemingly easy steps to build parts give me ideas even though I am not a builder of loco's it does help in repairs, techniques or modifications I am considering. The coach building methods are also very educational. I don't know of any other forums that have builders like you that explain in easy steps and also I commend others here who post with ideas and their work as well as adding to our collective 'knowledge'. Many live steamers look but only post when they have something to say so keep it up, I can't wait for your next project. 
Russell


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I haven't posted for a while as I had some jobs to do around the house and took a family vacation to Disney Land

Today, I did the first test on the complete set. In fact, the first time I have had everything together

I took a couple of stills and videos. The loud sound is from my neighbor's gardener and his blower


----------



## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill,

Beautiful job! Looking forward to seeing it next week at NSS.

Best regards,

Alan


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

ABSOLUTELY MAGNIFICENT!!!!! I don't know what to say.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
I am glad that the test run and photos occurred without you having to deal with any distraction: thus a most satisfying steamup.
Your time and efforts to put for this historic train in gauge one has been a pleasure to read about in your postings. 



I believe that there will be many awaiting your name on the signup board with great anticipation of a masterful build gracing the rails.


Thanks for making this a part of the gauge one hobby highlights of the talented builders who enhance the experiences of steamup gatherings.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Guys
The distraction Charles was referring to is when a few days ago, I was testing the engine with just a load car behind it. it was running real well and doing about 100 scale MPH at half throttle when I was stung on the arm by a hornet and dropped the RC. The throttle went to full and at about 150 MPH the set went airborne at the 9' radius curve and landed on the outside track on it's side.
To my surprise and relief, there was only one small scratch on the side fairing. The Scale Coat paint held up well and the 1/16" thick brass fairings proved to be worth the extra cost and labor over something thinner.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

An Amazing train and knowing you made it from scratch is incredible!


Perhaps a wrist strap on the throttle, since we learn best from misfortune...


----------



## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

What a beautiful and historic train Bill; Congratulations! And a big thanks for postin all the how its done photos.
Simon in Valmondois.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

"The throttle went to full and at about 150 MPH the set went airborne at the 9' radius curve and landed on the outside track on it's side." I'm glad there was no major damage to that gorgeous train. That is one reason that I like the rotary knobs on the RCS Tx. Less likely to move accidently.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

*Hiawatha F7 and Train*

In appreciation of Bill's time and effort both involving the build process along with posting of the sequence in making the Hiawatha train


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

A truly phenomenal train. The loco seems to have plenty of power to pull that long string of cars. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Charles
Awesome video and also the painting you did which is at the start of the video
Thanks


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Amazing job, Bill.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Great job Bill. Video does not do this engine justice. It's a masterpiece.

Take care, Bob


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Hopefully this photo will give a better representation of the excellent modeling by Bill. If and when the weather allows some photos of the Hiawatha train on the garden track will be forth coming.


----------

