# USAT Dockside - Kadee Coupler?



## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Anyone know what Kadee coupler works on the USAT Dockside loco?
And how does it mount?

I checked the Kadee website but I didn't see any mention of a coupler for the Docksider, I also checked Greg's page....but also didn't see any coupler info.

Thanks,
Vinny


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Vinny;

Sometimes you have to get creative. To fit Kadees to my Bachmann saddle-tanker, I had to mount 831 couplers in a body-mount coupler pocket (907, I think). I also had to remove the top arch from the coupler pockets.





























I don't have any "hands on" with the USAT Dockside, but you could be looking at something similar. Anyway, be prepared to think outside the Kadee model numbers "box." I have also found that cutting off the steel "brake hose" helps for some of these special mountings.

Best of luck in your quest,
David Meashey


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Posted By Dave Meashey on 19 Jun 2013 09:23 AM 
Vinny;

Sometimes you have to get creative. To fit Kadees to my Bachmann saddle-tanker, I had to mount 831 couplers in a body-mount coupler pocket (907, I think). I also had to remove the top arch from the coupler pockets.





























I don't have any "hands on" with the USAT Dockside, but you could be looking at something similar. Anyway, be prepared to think outside the Kadee model numbers "box." I have also found that cutting off the steel "brake hose" helps for some of these special mountings.

Best of luck in your quest,
David Meashey


I have one of these Bachmann engines to do also! it was actually going to be next on my list.
For the dockside I don't know if I can cut anything because the loco is die cast, but I may be able to cut/drill the existing coupler arm and bolt a coupler box to it that I already have. I was just seeing what others have done to see if my thinking was correct!


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

This one is next!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"For the dockside I don't know if I can cut anything because the loco is die cast," 
Vinny;

I feel your pain. Back in my American Flyer days, I finagled AF knuckle couplers onto the pilots of all my steam locomotives. It usually involved chiseling the die cast dummy "pimple" coupler off, then mounting the knuckle with the creative use of black insulated bell wire. Only after I went to the trouble did I learn that the working couplers were useless because of the way the fronts of the locomotives overhung those tight AF curves! Oh well, live and learn.

Perhaps somebody else has already found an answer for your situation. I already know from another thread on this forum that the Dockside locomotive seems to have a LOT of coupler overhang, but not enough coupler shank flexibility.

Best wishes,
David Meashey


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Sam from Kadee just emailed me back and said they don't have a coupler conversion for this loco... 
But I have an idea I am going to try tonight (if I get the chance). 
Picked up a few different couplers from my local shop this afternoon and I may be able to get something to work.


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Posted By Vinny D on 19 Jun 2013 12:18 PM 
Sam from Kadee just emailed me back and said they don't have a coupler conversion for this loco... 
But I have an idea I am going to try tonight (if I get the chance). 
Picked up a few different couplers from my local shop this afternoon and I may be able to get something to work. 

Just use the same Kadees you used on the pilot of your connie. drill and bolt them on the front and rear thats what we use for this loco.

J.


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Posted By Jethro J. on 19 Jun 2013 01:45 PM 
Posted By Vinny D on 19 Jun 2013 12:18 PM 
Sam from Kadee just emailed me back and said they don't have a coupler conversion for this loco... 
But I have an idea I am going to try tonight (if I get the chance). 
Picked up a few different couplers from my local shop this afternoon and I may be able to get something to work. 

Just use the same Kadees you used on the pilot of your connie. drill and bolt them on the front and rear thats what we use for this loco.

J. 


This is probably what I will end up doing, thanks!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So no draft gear? 

Is it the 904, straight shank? 










If so, uncoupling might be a problem.

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Accucraft 1:20.3 couplers screw/bolt into the end beam. I don't know what the front of the engine looks like. Pictures are dark. They might work. Chuck 


Greg: what do the stock couplers look like. Are they low like on the streamliners? I know you don't care for them, but would the USAt stepups work in this case?


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

This is the one I used: http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page779-1779.htm


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions, I don't have time tonight to try anything but I might be able to attempt something in the morning before work. 
I will take some pictures of what I may...or may not end up with!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim has the ones I believe Jethro used. 

I can measure the height of the couplers this weekend


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, thanks for the picture. That helps a lot. Are those couplers metal? How long is the shank? Chuck


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys; 

I used the 779 pocket with the 831 coupler on the Bachmann 0-4-0st, because the mounting faces were so low and I needed to get the coupler up to the right height. I had to cut away the "arch" on the top front of the pocket to make things work. 

Vinny wrote that he wants to do that Bachmann locomotive next, so I figured I'd just add this footnote to the thread. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

I think I got it! 
Might not be the best was, but it will work for me and it was easy. 

I picked up a piece of 3/16 brass flat stock. 
Cut it to fit so that the box assembly of a Kadee 837 coupler would fit right up against the back/front frame of the loco when mounted with a nut & bolt. 
Simply drilled a couple of holes, one for the coupler and one for the screw that mounts the coupler shaft to the loco and it seems to fit perfect.


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

It's probably not the best solution, but it was easy and I didn't have to cut up or drill anything on the engine. 
I will do the front coupler tonight and then test it out.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Probably will be fine. If you were pulling long trains with this loco (which it IS capable of), then the "offset" coupler is not a good idea, because the offset tends to pull and twist the coupler downwards under tension. Then you get uncoupling and start "stubbing your toe" with the uncoupling "rod". 

As an aside, many people use kadees, and then have trouble because the coupler is deflecting and the uncoupling rod catches on a switch.

One "solution" is cutting off the uncoupling rod. That only solves part of the problem, not the uncoupling part. (also older Kadees need the inside of the knuckle filed flat)

The correct solution is solid mounting, no deflection of the mount under load, center set couplers, and proper height. 

Regards, Greg


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

I tend to stay with around 4-5 cars maximum on my trains. 
For some reason I have a BUNCH of these 837 couplers and I can't remember what I bought them for (8+ years ago!). 
But I have managed to adapt them to a few cars/engines pretty easily and they have worked out decent. 

I even put them on my Aristo RS3 that all of a sudden is running fine, without doing anything to it! 
Ran that last night for about 4-hours, didn't skip a beat and ran nice and smooth. 
When I tried it after having new trucks installed it was still not running right, all I did was put it back out on the track and try it. 
Maybe it didn't like running on my un-completed railroad!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A weird thing about RS-3's, the clearance between the truck and the underside of the chassis is very small, it's easy for the wires from the truck to hang up and not let the trucks pivot easily. This results in derailments and power pickup issues. 

Regards, Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

I have been using full offset Kadee and USAt knuckle couplers for over 20 years. I have never had a problem like you describe. I have used them on all my American style LGB engines and cars as well as all of my USAt engines with the exception of the GG1. The heaviest if not the longest train I pull with an offset (Kadee #831) is a 10 car USAt B&O streamliner consist. I pull it with USAt F3AB. All couplers on the F3s are 831s. The 831s are a little wobbly on the posts. I pull freight trains with up to 15 cars with these couplers also. I do as you mention cut of the wire on the bottom of the coupler, or just bend it up with some needle-nose pliers. I find that even on body mounted Kadees the uncoupling wire will catch on occasion.

There might be a problem with longer/heavier trains, but trains run by many of us will be fine with step ups. 

Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Vinny, I really like your solution. Chuck


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks Chuck.
I know it will not satisfy everyone, but I am one that just likes to run trains!
I also lack the skills many have on here to do it nicer, but with using couplers I already had and with it taking less then 10 minutes to get a working solution I can live with it!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Vinny, my object is to run trains that I like. The only person I am trying to please is me. My task is to get the couplers to mate. Some are body mounted and some are truck mounted. The one thing I will not do is surgery on an LGB car or engine to have body mounted couplers. Therefore I have used truck mounted step up couplers on all my LGB stock so that I can run it with other cars or engines with body mounts. I will wack and hack other cars but for me LGB is special. I have modified a couple o LGB Engines, but that is about it. Chuck


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Did the front one a little while ago, it even matches up pretty close to the MTH 1/32 cars that I have.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, I did mention long trains. On the flat, that docksider can pull up to 30 cars. For me a long train is 45 cars or so. I also have steep grades. I qualified my recommendations clearly and up front. 

Maybe my definition of "long" is not the same as you.









Also, the fact you have trimmed your uncoupler pins with shorter trains, and I'm sure gentler grades, and I can run a 50 car train up a 3.4% grade, down a 5.5% grade with all "pins" in place reinforces what I said. 

So you CAN have the pins and still run long trains. In my opinion, many people "give up" too soon and bend or cut the pins. That's ok if you don't want to use the uncoupling feature. 

Of course, if I did not want remote and delayed uncoupling, I'd use scale couplers with no uncoupling pins. 

That's just me. 

Greg


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Just did the Bachmann porter, worked exactly the same as with the dockside.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice to know Vinny, easy to do and works fine. Don't take my comments as not agreeing with your solution, I was hoping to impart some wisdom about Kadees in general. 

Greg


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Jun 2013 07:37 PM 
Nice to know Vinny, easy to do and works fine. Don't take my comments as not agreeing with your solution, I was hoping to impart some wisdom about Kadees in general. 

Greg 
Thanks Greg, I actually forgot about the Kadee issue with long arm on the bottom of the coupler.....but was quickly reminded of it the other night when a Accucraft tanker car kept coming un-coupled when it went over a switchtrack!
Drove me crazy, all of the other cars in the train had been going over the switchtrack for a few hours before I dug out the tanker car and added it to the train.....just about every other pass it was hitting and leaving half the train behind!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, There is long and longer. Most layouts I have visited in Arizona, Colorado, and the DC Area on open houses and tours run less than 10 car trains. The only large private layout that I run on is Dr. Rivet's. there I can run a 34 unit car train. At some of his steamups they have run 100+ car blocks. I could run more, but I don't have any more iron ore cars. I have run on club tracks that could take longer trains, but I just don't see them. Sure you can run your trains, as you want, but most of us have smaller layouts than you have and long for us is a different long. What I have always said is that there is no one answer for everyone and every situation. We are all different and our trains are different. My comments are directed to those who have layouts I can relate to. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I should have defined long. Somehow I have hung around with guys that run trains in the 40-60 car lengths. 

Since I'm also SG only, I find SG folks tend to run longer trains than NG guys... (of course)... 

I guess I relate more to Dirk, Dennis Serrine, etc. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, on my layout I would have about 5' between the lead engine and the trailing caboose if tried to run a 50 car train. My main line is 87' around. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Even that can be fun.... I have a small loop on one part of the layout.

I took a mainline train on to the loop to clear the main and this happened, totally unplanned or tested:


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, nice video. It looks af if with one more carefully chosen car you could make up a full circle train. The only thing the video needed was a diesel horn blasting at the caboose to get out of the way. Chuck


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Greg, how did that not derail all those trains?


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## Jethro J. (Apr 4, 2012)

Why would it ? When you "properly" mount Kadees to the body's of the cars they perform perfectly with 100 car trains with no derailments. They are the best couplers out there.
Cant do that with Tong mounted couplers.










J.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The length of the train was a "standard" 45 car train... 5 more cars and I get wheelslip up my grades with those locos. I wanted it off the main line and did not want to break it up in the yard. Once the train started entering the loop, I was kind of committed. I was able to throw the switch just after the caboose cleared and just before the lead loco came to it. 

Vinny, that part (not derail) was easy, I will remind you of my 3.4% up grade, and 5.5% down.. the coupler tension is much greater there! There is a 9.5' diameter 180 degree hairpin just before the downgrade. 

The curves in the video do test the couplers, but more to do with properly gauged wheels, turnouts modified to meet standards, and body mounts. 

I can leave that train running for hours, and there are 3 switches in that loop, and 2 of them are on the "diverging" route, and they are the "wide radius" switches by Aristo. 

Again, if you want to run long trains, or be ultra reliable, being "more exact" with mounting Kadees pays off.... 

Oh, EVERY car and loco has a kadee on it, with the uncoupling pin, and set to the proper height (Kadee spec), not bent up. 

Just reinforcing, it CAN be done. 

Greg


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

Posted By Jethro J. on 21 Jun 2013 11:38 AM 
Why would it ? When you "properly" mount Kadees to the body's of the cars they perform perfectly with 100 car trains with no derailments. They are the best couplers out there.
Cant do that with Tong mounted couplers.










J.
I was not worried about the couplers derailing the train, but the shear weight of the all the cars being pulled around a curve is where I would have figured a derailment would have happened.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That is only a 45 car train, I've run longer on the main line. 

I did (due to a track problem) have a train that long come apart and roll backwards down the 3.4% grade about 70 feet... not a car derailed then either... although my pulse rate went up a bit ha ha! 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

''I guess I relate more to Dirk , Dennis Sirrine, etc"... 

ugh oh - the secret is out now!!! 

Dirk ..... :~ } DMS Ry, ....Home of ''truly long trains''


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

One wonders why such a nice loco like the Docksider was not designed to accommodate Kadee centerset type couplers having proper coupler height to the railhead - and not just for better performance for the reasons Greg cited, but for realistic aesthetics to go with such a nice loco.

Like Greg, I prefer to run long trains (sometimes 60 cars) and have learned that body mounted center set couplers perform best in this environment, and as a bonus they look realistic, too.



-Ted


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted, I agree with you about the coupler height on USAt locomotives. All of mine came built with the couplers at the truck mounted height. All of my 1:29 freight cars have couplers at the body mount height. Most are body mounted Kadees. A few Aristo freight cars have step up truck mounted couplers. As a result I have had to modify the couplers on all of my USAt diesels. What height do they have on the other streamers, Big boy, Hudson, etc.? This forces me, like Greg, to modify the coupler on the first car of my USAt streamliner sets. What a pain. Most of their diesels came out before the streamliners. WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT RIGHT THEN? We shouldn't have to modify our locomotives in order to get the couplers to the correct height. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Coupler height and mounting has always been a sore spot with USAT. Why do they "respect" a standard mounting height and pad on the freight cars, but do such goofy stuff on the locos? 

Might as well ask why the wiring is so archaic and using the wrong common for typical control systems. 

Just something they don't do very well. 

Not too hard to fix though, much easier than the non-adjustable wheels on Aristo locos, etc. 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, it is our fault. We kept buying them even though we were aware of the defects. We liked them and overlooked the defects, knowing that we could fix them. Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Same here, I love their stuff, and can live with the quirks, there's no perfect G scale product.


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