# upgrading or changing to battery



## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok gang here ya' go.. 

I have several locos that are currently DC and would like to get them to combo power, that is a switch that can set them to either DC, battery or even for some locos, DCC.

My questions begin with, How hard will this be, if it is even possible or smart?

I currently have an Aristo Mallet that has a switch for this and I plan on upgrading that loco by adding an Airwire G3 unit along with sound in the early part of next year.
But I would like to have the same functionality with my Shay and maybe a couple of others. I do plan on building a couple of battery cars for just this purpose.

So it comes down to -- How? I'm not much of a electronics guy so it may take some real simple help for me to get this done..... I know there are several places/people I could send these units to have this done for me but then what do I learn out of the deal and I really don't know that I have the money for that kind of service.... I also have a railbus that has Phoenix sound in it and that doesn't work right either so I also need help with that to. Maybe if I could learn from someone I could figure that one out on my own..... 

sadly there is no club with in 70 miles of me so that makes it hard to get local help.... I will be asking the one local hobby store owner if he knows of anyone who might be willing to help me....


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

How hard will this be, if it is even possible or smart 
The first question: Putting a switch on the loco is easy. Any DC track-powered loco has wires from the pickups to the motor. All you have to do is remove them from the motor and reattach them to the switch, and then attach the switch to the motor. Many modern locos with the smart plug-n-play socket already have a switch for this purpose, so you don't have to do anything! 

That's the electrical part - but if you don't have a switch already, then there is the mechanical problem of where you are going to put the switch. If you look at some of Tony Walsham's post about how he installed his company's rc gear on a loco, he usually posts photos of how and where he puts the switch. 

The same mechanical issue is evident when you decide you want batteries, a throttle and a sound card. They all have to fit somewhere, even if it is just in a battery car. My suggestion would be to make a battery car first, that plugs in to a loco with the switch for track or battery power. Doing self-contained battery power after that is just a question of mechanically squeezing the components into a smaller space than inside a boxcar! 

So to make this happen, you have to understand the basic circuit for battery and r/c control, with the sound as an option. I can probably find one somewhere. My ol seminar is at http://gold.mylargescale.com/peteth...ntrol2.pdf


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## oceansidean (Dec 27, 2010)

I have two battery powered Mallets that I converted, one with QSI Magnum, Airwire Receiver, 21.5 Aristo lithium battery, one with Airwire G2, Phoenix P8 and CVP 14.8 lithium battery, speakers in the boiler instead of the tender, as well as, having the track/battery option still intact. I do not have any power to my layout & get two to three hours of operation each. Both were conversions were fairly easy as I'm somewhat of a beginner. The model has plenty of room inside, disassembles & assembles easily. The staff at CVP, Phoenix & this forum are very helpful. I'm not sure that I can help you with your Shay, but may be able to help with some others. I have converted & can assist with both Aisto & USA units. The conversion is possible, it was smart for me. I can help via PM if needed. 
John


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

From my viewpoint, both Pete and John have good advice. I know a lot of folks like to have their batteries inside the locomotive so they can run the loco by itself. While I like the ability to run the loco "alone", I also like to be able to swap out my battery(s) when they need charging, though, so all of my locomotives have at least the batteries in a trailing car. Some also have the receiver and the soundboard in the trailing car much as Pete suggested.

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One point not made yet is that you should be sure that your track/battery switch does not allow power from the batteries to feed back to the wheels/rails. 

Several locos are wired that way, and many "battery only" layouts have a dead short between the rails. This produces smoke of the kind you won't like. 

Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

You are so right, Greg. Not only that, but so many times, especially on engines with tenders, there are track pickups on the tenders. I often forget that as I never make my engines dual purpose. I always remove all of the track pickups so that my engines are only battery powered. Still, when I first make the mods I have on occasion missed a pickup. Since I have a reversing loop in my garage in my "yard", non-nice things happen!!!!

Ed


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I do lots of battery R/C installs for people and nearly all of them are battery only. There have been a few who think they needed the option of track power but they then never use that option once they taste the joys of battery only power. 

How hard it will be to convert a Bachmann Shay to battery R/C does depend a bit on which Shay is being converted. 
As long as a track power option is not required it is easy. For the early versions simply remove the ball bearing power pick ups from the trucks to isolate the loco from the rails. Then feed the ESC output into the point where the track pick up wires are joined above the rear truck. The Shay will perform the same is it did on track power only better, as cruddy track and pick ups will never affect the smooth running ever again. Later Shays already have the pick ups isolated. 

Of course, if you want constant brightness directional lights, that is more complicated. I rarely if ever rewire Shays. Instead I use a small relay controlled by a lighting output from my ESC's to reverse the polarity of constant battery voltage to achieve constant brightness reversing lights, good smoking and flickering fireboxes. 
I do the same with pretty well all USA Trains locos. 
For most Aristo locos I use my own Plug'n'Play ESC.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you all for the advice.... I guess I'm going to have to just be brave and jump right in and see what happens. Of course taking all your advice and cautions to heart too!
I have one of the Christmas Annies that is not working on my bench right now so I guess that will be my frankenstein project... After all, it doesn't run now so I can't hurt it only help it!

Thanks again and please keep the thoughts coming!

Merry Christmas!!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I also like to be able to swap out my battery(s) when they need charging 
Ed, 
I have never had a battery-powered loco run out of juice - and I've been running them for 5 or 10 years now. I once ran a loco for 4 hours at a show and it showed no sign of dying. 
However, don't let me dissuade you from setting up replaceable batteries if you think you will need them. 

Scott,
Here's the wiring diagram for my first Bachmann 4-6-0. *[url]http://gold.mylargescale.co...f*[/url] . I kept the original Bachmann sound as it is self-contained in the tender. George Schreyer has some tips for improving it. Send me a message with your email and I'll answer any questions you may have. 

The ten-wheeler has a large weight over the drivers, so I have always advocated replacing it with a pair of 7.2V batteries. I putthe throttle in the tender. The choice of batteries got more complex with the Lithium types. I have been using NiMH (nickel-metal-hydride) packs designed for r/c cars. Your local hobby store that sells r/c cars and planes is s great resource. Batteries are not cheap, and the r/c gear will cost $$, as will a sound system.

If you read the threads here, you'll find passionate arguments for and against every type of battery and control system. I suggest you just do it and make your own judgements.


_Edit: (and rant) this stupid forum software will NOT let you insert URLs (links). This is my second edit - we'll see if it works this time. 

Third and final edit. If the link doesn't work, copy this to your browser and remove the 'dots and spaces: __gold dot mylargescale dot com/petethornton/drawings/Wiring%20diagram%20for%20Ten-Wheeler-2.pdf_

_Fourth edit - unbelieveable. It makes my HTML link work, but screws up the pasted text into a useless link!!!_


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

A few thoughts (in no particular order): 

I did a few locos recently where I originally left in place the ability to run off of track power for when I went to shows, etc. This was around the same time I was making the switch to Li-Ion batteries. I found I was getting 3 - 4 hours off of the Li-Ion packs (2600mAh), and just didn't need to worry about track power. (That, and there was always the issue of the track power perhaps being PWM instead of linear, etc...) So when I went to do some routine maintenance on the locos, I ended up gutting the track power side of the equation. Haven't ever needed it. If you've got room for a 4400 or greater Li-Ion pack, you're gonna be getting closer to 6 - 8 hours run time on a 1-motor locomotive if fully charged. 

I'm morally opposed to trailing cars. Yeah, they have their place for folks who have a gazillion locos and can't outfit them all, but I think you'll find that once you do one or two self-contained locos, you're probably going to gravitate towards them--especially if they're outfitted with sound. It's SO MUCH easier to add sound, lights, etc. in a dedicated installation. If you're just starting out with one or two locos, then a self-contained installation is definitely the way to go. And definitely, if you're into prototype operations, you don't want to have to drag a trailing car around with you when switching. 

If you can, make the battery pack accessible to swap out. If you've got a loco with a tender, this is very easy to do by making the coal load removable or the entire tender shell. Diesels, Shays, etc., are a bit more difficult, but with careful planning, possible. Fuel tanks make great places to hide batteries, or if there's a removable part of the hood, that works well as access, too. When I run, I seldom--if ever--charge the battery first, so I'm never sure how much of a charge is left on the battery pack. (Li-Ions do a very good job of holding a charge for long periods of time.) This way, though, if the pack dies, I can just swap it out with another one (even if it, too, is only partially charged) and keep going. The "dead" pack goes on the charger straight away, and is usually ready to go within 90 minutes. With a 3rd pack in circulation, the chances of you running one locomotive and never having available power for it is almost nil. 

Where you cannot feasibly make the battery packs removable, make sure you use the highest capacity battery pack you can fit. That way you're more likely to have at least 2 - 3 hours on it even if you haven't charged it in a few runs. That'll give you plenty of time to put another loco on charge to run once the first one runs flat. 

Given a choice of voltage or capacity, choose capacity--especially if you're running narrow gauge stuff. I know some folks who cram 21 volts worth of batteries into a Shay, then never run it above 25% throttle because it's just too fast. Lower the voltage, use more throttle, and use the extra space for higher-capacity packs. I run 14.8 volt packs in all of my locos, and still rarely go above 60% throttle maximum. (My "speed limit" on my railroad is around 15 - 20 scale mph.) Obviously if you're running the Super Chief on batteries, you'll want to supply ample voltage to get a prototypical speed. If you're using removable packs, don't worry about high capacity, since you can swap them out. That'll save you some money, at least. (Of course, if you've got the room for the higher capacity packs and can still swap them out, no harm in going that route, either. But the smaller capacity packs can fit in tighter places very easily, freeing up room for larger speakers, more electronics, etc. 

A $1.00 fuse is cheap insurance. Don't rely solely on the circuit protection built into the throttles or electronics. I typically use a 5-amp fast-blow fuse in my installations. 

Later, 

K


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## Winona (Sep 14, 2012)

We do a great deal of installs using Airwire or Revolution systems. 90% are battery on board in the locos. We also only use Lithium-Ion cells in the 2800 to 5600 mah range.
Using 5600 mah packs a run time of 5 to 6 hours is pretty typical.
If your objective is to maximize run times, than a proper install would dictate removing the over zealous manufactuer's lights and circuit boards. All the ones that deplete your battery. 
If you see a voltage regulator attached to a heat sink that might be a clue to a waste in energy. Replace all the incandelsent lights with leds and resistors.

I agree that there really is no need to go over the 18.5 volt range, other than some of the brass units, that seem to like 22.2 volts.
Keep the space for higher capacity. The only time we suggest a trailing car is when all the goodies will just not fit into the loco. 


A word of caution though. I would stay away from Li-Poly packs. I know they a little more cost effective but the cautionary notes regarding Li-Po's inherent dangers are something not to be taken lightly.
I know of one installer that uses them installed in his customers locos, and personally the liabilities & possible legalities of that scares the **** out me.
I have used them in Radio Control aircraft and have seen the effectives of rough handling and what CAN happen.
Inexperience and lack of knowledge by the installer and/or owner of a Li-po equipped loco is a recipe for problems.
Stick with Lithum-Ion 14.8 to 18.5, higher capacity packs and you will happier in the long run and you will also forget about that battery/track power switch.
The Bachmann 2 truck shay is one loco much like Hesslier & Climax that just don't have the room for rx,sound & batteries. Sure you can remove the boiler weight and replace with the battery pack but the lost in weight will make traction suffer.
My opinions and take them for whats its worth.
John


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

I noticed that a number of you have said that you use 14.8 or 18.5 volt battery packs in your engines. What receivers are you using, as I tried to use a 14.8 fully charge to 16.9 volts with my 10 Channel Train Engineer and it would not even turn on. They seem to need 18V or better to operate. I have been making my own 14.8 Volt Battery packs for my eggliners and they work fine running free with no speed controller. I would like to also use these pack with my bachmann engines, but looks like I would need a different control system. 

Dan S.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

Does anyone make a receiver speed controller that works with older 75Mhz RC systems? I have 3 75Mhz ground Frequency systems that I would like to use on my Trains One is A hitec 6 system, the other is a Futaba 6 channels system and the last is an older 4 channel Tower Hobbies system 4. 

Dan S.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

Has anyone used these battery packs before and can you use an Aristo craft charger to charge them these have the same ratings as the Aristo Battery packs. 

http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion18650-3-7V2200mahwithpcb31065.aspx 

dan S.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

I also found this one that looks like it might work as well, but is from China and has a long delivery time. It is on Ebay item number 221157444168 and is the same price as the one for All-battery at $54.99 

Dan S.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, 
I doubt anyone is using older 75 MHz R/C systems these days. Mainly because of the "glitching" problems they all suffered from. 
The only stick type radios to use are the more modern 2.4 GHz systems. You can buy a suitable TX and RX 5 - 6 channel rig for around US$50. (No servos). 

You can buy suitable *brushed* ESC's that give speed and direction control only for around US$ 30 - US$40 ea. 
If you want all the bells and whistles you will pay between US$70 and US$90. These will give speed and direction plus directional constant brightness lights and four sound triggers. 

Granted each loco will cost a bit more than what the Revolution RX's cost. However, when the ultra low cost of a 2.4 GHz TX and RX are taken into account, the stick type radio ESC's become very price competitive.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

you use 14.8 or 18.5 volt battery packs 
I originally used 2 x 7.2V r/c car packs in my Bachmann locos, whichare quite happy with 14.4V. I also have an Aristo with the old onboard TE that has 2 x 9.6V packs. 

My latest conversion has 2 x 10.8V (9 x 1.2V NiMH C mini-cells) packs giving me 21.6V. The packs were for apaint gun! 

I also found this one that looks like it might work as well, but is from China and has a long delivery time 
Dan, 
Garden Railways Magazine has an article in the current issue about Li packs and buying cheap from China.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Pete, you are right in that you can get good run times with today's batteries. However, it is SO good, that I only charge my batteries every week or even less often. As a result, I do have batteries go dead on me as I forget when it is time to recharge the batteries. That's why I like them in a trailing car. I find that I am migrating towards having the receiver and the sound inside the engines, Kevin, but I still like the batteries outside - even if it does mean I always have a car behind the engine. I have some engines with everything in the trailing car, batteries, receiver and soundboard, but generally more and more have the receiver and sound migrating into the engines. Since I generally run diesels I don't have the option of putting a battery in the tender. I have to admit though, the tender does make an excellent "trailing car"!!

Ed


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## baxters4 (Mar 11, 2012)

ok people thanks for all the advice and info so far (yes even though the name is different I'm the same guy)...


I now have a $500 loco and $500 worth of sound and battery equipment to install in it! However, I'm such a novice at this that I need someones help. I don't want some who I can ship this to or some one to do it for me I need someone to teach me so i can do this on my own later with the next "upgrade to batteries" I do.









The Aristo booklet that came with my Mallet does have a drawing of the boards inside the loco but it does NOT tell me what the wires all are for. So that is the first problem. Second there doesn't appear to any specific instructions for what pieces attach where. There are instructions for each piece but they don't really look like they fit together really clearly, or maybe its my nervous mind that doesn't see it. After all who wants to hook up stuff wrong and cook a $500 loco!









who can I call or who can send me step by step photos of what needs to be done to make this happen? 

Oh yea, Here is what I have,

1 - Pheonix sound card P8
1 - Airwire G3 controller
1 - battery pack
1 - chuff switch
1 - adapter card, which looks like it attaches to the dcc ports on the loco main board.

I have some time this afternoon most of the day tomorrow to work on this then I'm booked for about three weeks.

thanks for your help and friendship all! no to mention patience!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Does the mallet have the Aristo socket inside? If you can take a photo of what you're dealing with, I can probably give you some pointers. 

BTW, what's the adapter card for? 

Later, 

K


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

ok EBT here ya go. 

First yes the Mallet has the Aristo socket inside.

Second, I'm not sure what the adapter card is for other than it appears to fit nicely onto the socket.

Third, here are some photos of what I have going on.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks, Scott. The interface board will make installing this pretty simple. Basically screw-terminal to screw terminal, I would think. I'm swamped tomorrow with work, but if you're out of the mix for a few weeks, I'll put together some wiring instructions you can use. 

Later, 

K


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll take whatever I can get... The problem I have really is that I can probably find my way from one board to the next but when it comes to going from loco to board I'm pretty much stuck. All those wires in the middle really throw me and I don't know if I need to do anything with any of them or not. The only other thing I'm not real sure about it where to mount the chuff and magnet.
As I'm thinking about... Am I understanding right that with the adapter board I DON'T need to do ANYTHING with those wires, the board does it all for me? 

I'm sure i need to do something to mount boards in the loco. would something like double stick tape be acceptable mounting for these boards?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

For chuff I glue a rare earth magnet on a tender wheel or axle with a reed switch. Timing will not be perfect but will work for most.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott, 
I see you have a new G3. If you have used Airwire before like a G2 be sure to read and follow the G3 instructions. Don't assume to much from the G2, the G3 has quite a few changes in the way you set it up,especially when you first power it up. They do perform well. There are also a couple changes for connection to a Phoenix P8.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Paul, this is the first airwire unit I have purchased... but thank you for the heads up.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Scott, Are you making any progress.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, I haven't really had time to do much with it... I will not be able to do much with it now till maybe Monday afternoon, and if not then not till the 26th. I;m leaving on vacation on Tuesday..  Thanks for asking though.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, I had some time today to actually put the wires together. Thanks for your help over the phone. 
Please look over these pictures and make sure I've got things setup ok.... 
I think I've got it all right. The wires aren't to length but if they are right I will extend them and final wire everything in place.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This looks correct. I don't have my drawing here to check. Let me verify tomorrow. Have you powered anything?


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

no.. have not plugged in the battery yet.. wanted to make sure things were ok first... don't want to release the smoke if I can help it!


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

scott 
in your drewing i don't see a on off switch for the sound, phoenix recommends one.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes I Dick I do see that in the drawings in the thier book.. I figure that the way I have things connected.... With a connector plug between the battery and the power input for the sound card... that will work the same way. I will just unplug the battery when I don't want sound running.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Scott, Looks correct. You may need a negative to #6 on the adapter board. Most important that the polarity to the G3 is correct.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike and all the rest of you for your help, support and excouragment! I have sound and battery now installed in my Mallet!! I works great and I love the functionality of the Airwire system!! Thanks Mike for the recommendation!


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I am regressing. I got a MTH Hudson awhile back, with it's control system setup. Seems to always run good on the track . Just ordered a MTH Challenger to run on the MTH track power also. I still run battery a lot also and some live steam at times.


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