# MTH loco compatibly with DCC? Speed Curve changes?



## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

This is about an HO locomotive, but I’m sure guys who use 1 Gauge MTH have similar problems?

I just got a brand new HO MTH 4-12-2 sent to me, looks nice and sounds great. But it runs like a startled gazelle.

Normally I would fix this by changing the speed curve. The instructions with the loco make no mention of this feature and if I change the CVs like I normally would on any other decoder I get no change.

I believe MTH gauge 1 locos have Proto sound 2 (not DCC compatible), where the HO locos have proto sound 3 (DCC compatible).

Can someone help me, I’m very new to MTH? I’m good with DCC.

Is it possible to adjust the speed curve on a PS3 HO locomotive? From what I found doing a quick Google it's a simple no.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The unit probably runs fine under DCS. So far no one in 1 Gauge has been able to experiment with the DCC compatibility of PS3. There are several of us, myself included, that are very interested to know what is included on the DCC compatibility side and how well it works.

Tom Bray


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam5, Here's what I found on another forum about MTH PS3 HO Locomotives when programming under DCC...Hope it helps to solve your questions as I have no experience with HO & PS3...









I really haven't had any "problems" running them on any of the DCC systems. There are several things about the MTH decoders that are different, but I don't regard those as problems. Here are some of the quirks of the MTH DCC decoder.

1. ACC and DEC rate values are backwards of most decoders - lower # = more momentum.

2. ALL programming MUST be done on the main - Even systems with a programming track booster don't work with MTH engines. If your system doesn't allow programming the address on the main MTH allows you to program the address using CV's 49,50 and 51.

3. Speed maps are not adjustable - one speed step equals 1 SMPH

4. Function mapping is not supported

5. Advanced consisting is not supported

I think I picked up the term "brute force" consist from the NCE manual. It's sometimes called "old fashion" consisting. Basically, in DCC you have two kinds of consists. A "brute force" or "old fashion" consist is created entirely in the DCC command station. The station is programmed with the info for each locomotive and sends out the appropriate commands for each engine. Advanced consisting programs the decoder in each engine that is in the consist to respond to a different consist address. The command station sends out instructions for the whole consist and each decoder interprets what it needs to do in response.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam5, Here's some more info that I found...

I've been running MTH HO engines on DCC since they introduced their first HO engine, the PRR K4 Pacific. Hopefully I can answer any questions you may have about how MTH engines work under DCC. First, regarding CV's. It is true that there are very few CV's that can be programmed. Basically, the only features that are programmed with CV's are DCC address, acceleration rate, deceleration rate (the values in DEC rate and ACC rate work backwards of most decoders because it represents SMPH/sec - enter 1 for max momentum), and CV 29 to select short/long address and number of speed steps. When set for 128 speed steps each step equals one SMPH, just like running them on DCS. However, there are MANY more features that can be programmed with function keys, including volume. The volume adjustment cycles up from "sounds off" through "max volume" with nine presses of the appropriate function keys. MTH engines support up to F28. Pretty much every major feature of DCS is accessible through the function keys. The only things that are missing are some of the features that require two-way communication, such as measuring a route. You cannot remap the speed curve to match other engines, but you can use the MTH engine as a tool to program other DCC engines to run in SMPH increments. Once you program another manufacture's engine to match SMPH you can consist the engines with a brute force consist, but not an advanced consist. I realize that's not an attractive solution but it DOES work. In talking with Dave K he acknowledged that they need to add advanced consisting and function mapping but those did not not make it into this board. He also mentioned that they are working on a gen3 board for HO that will be offered in upgrade kits. That board will support advanced consisting, function mapping, and even BEMF for those who can't or don't want to install an optical reader. The BEMF will give you control in SMPH but the level of repeatability is not as precise as the optical system.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chuck, I looked on the MTH site, could not find DCC manual for the HO stuff... do you have a link? I'd like to study up. 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Chuck thanks for the information. 

The loco measures its speed with optical sensors? So no matter what voltage I use for DCC one speed step is 1 MPH??? See my speed issue a 4-12-2 was not designed to do 128MPH. For the record I haven’t checked my books to see how fast they did go. 

Right at the moment I am thinking I could isolate the motor and run it with another decoder and that way I can still keep the sound. I think i can???

Another thing which is freaking me out, (again this is on the HO loco but probably the same on their G). Between the loco and the tender there is a slit draw bar (two contacts) and nothing else, not more wires! Now to do all the things this loco does it must be sending signals across the draw bar to make things happen??? 

Greg I had the same trouble you had. 

Thanks
Alan


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, no I don't have a link for a PS3 DCC manual as it's only info that I've picked up on websites. You'd think that the info would be packed with the loco??


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would think so... strange... well, a manual cannot be far behind, MTH docs seem to be pretty good, the last few I looked at. Will be interested when it "surfaces". 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I did get a booklet with the locomotive, I would scan it in, but I won't be home for another week.

It’s very unfortunate that I don't have function 28 to get the train wreck sound...


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I received a repose from MTH today (bellow). I’m back home this weekend and I hope to get a chance to dissect the loco and see what’s going on inside and come up with a way to make it run slower. I’ll post the fix (if I come up with one) because Proto Sound 3 may be coming to their G locos.


_Hello. Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains. We appreciate
your interest in our products. I am sorry for the delay in
responding to your email. I am afraid at this time one cannot lower
the max voltage to the MTH HO engines. I have forwarded your email
and comments to our research and development department for further
review and consideration. We are always interested in knowing what
features customers would like to see added to the system, especially
in a new line like the MTH HO engines. Please let me know if there
is anything I can help you with in the future.
Thank you,_


Alan


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I had time today to take apart the 4-12-2 to see how it ticked.

The fly wheel has a pattern printed on the flat face to allow an optical sensor to calculate the speed. This arrangement made it difficult to modify and trick the loco into going slower.

In the end I cut the wires to the motor and wired a Lenz decoder in to control the motor. The optical sensors still reads for the sound cam but now I have a much smoother running loco and it runs at a prototypical speed.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I hope my question isn't too far off topic.

As a newbie to G scale, I've been studying up on what barnd of DCC system I'll want to buy this winter, in anticipation of adding a serious amount of track to my just-built flowerbed loop. I'm fascinated by Zimo's myriad possibilities while frightened by its complexity (and cost), so I'm pretty well settled on NCE. But, last night I found out about MTH DCS. It got me wondering.

With PS3 coming, would I be just as happy with MTH? I haven't invested in engines yet; all I have now is an Arsito RDC-1. I don't expect to ever buy steam; probably just (eventually) 3-4 road diesels and a yard switcher, so I don't see a huge difference in overall cost. On the other hand, I'm not sure how important sound is to me. I want my diesels to rumble as they pass by, but I don't know that I want to orchestrate a symphony of sound delights in time with the shuffling of cars in the yard. That sounds like work. Just a few sounds to astound the neighbors would probably suffice.

Should I stick with NCE which seems to be the easy bet or hold off my control purchase til next April in hopes that all good things will become somewhat compatible and MTH will be the best of all my worlds?

jack


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

My experience with this hobby says manufacturers absolutely cannot be relied on to deliver the thing when they say they will. That doesn't mean MTH won't come through.


I use the NCE system and it's really first rate. For me the issue with MTH is the scale--they are significantly smaller. In some ways that's an advantage, but they don't always play well with, say, aristo stuff.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

I recall reading this original thread some time ago and never replied as it wasn't timely enough. 

To answer the original question on max speed of the real 4-12-2s, they could be run faster than say 50-55 SMPH but to do so for any extended period resulted in order of magnitude increases in mechanical wear & damage. There were a number of points on these engines that were of issue and one was the original cylinder castings being made in two pieces that had a tendancy to work loose.

On the original 4-12-2 model question, it sounds like the issue was limiting the top speed systematically as opposed to not advancing the throttle speed position manually past a point you don't want it to run. It looks like it's pretty clear from MTH's response that you can't set the max speed via DCC. You can set the max speed when running under DCS with the DCS remote. I don't have an issue with my DCS engines running like a startled gazelle and I don't even put preset max speeds on any of my engines... I simply just select the desired SMPH I want the engine to run based on how fast I see the engine running and how fast I actually want to see it run and leave it there. If you are running a DCS equipped engine with the DCS remote, you can set an engines max speed to whatever SMPH you want it. So the problem here is a limitation of trying to run a DCS PS3 engine with DCC equipment, but again, unless I am missing something, I probably would have just not turned the throttle up past the max speed I wanted the engine to run.

Regarding the point of voltage and actual speed of a given SMPH, part of the difference here between normal DCC board and DCS board operation is that DCS engines run at the exact same physical speed at say 25 SMPH when 14v is a applied to the track or if 24v is applied to the track. I understand this is not the case with DCC ... the physical speed will vary for a particular DCC speed stop depending on actual track voltage. 

I'm glad to see in the end Alan got it all resolved and working the way he wanted it. 


Jack: 

As far as sounds on the diesel side I think you can find something you will be satisfied with regardless which way you go. 

As far as holding off...I guess my one question is what are looking to possibly do? Waiting and going with MTH DCS with the anticipation that you could run even DCC(only) equipped engines along with your PS3 equipped engines all with your DCS remote? If that is the case then based on what I know I'm not sure that will work. Any new Protosound boards with DCC compatibility can be controlled with DCC equipment but I don't know that the coming new DCS Remote and TIU will be able to control existing DCC(non-protosound) engines. The existing remote and TIU can't today. To me the bottom line is: if you want to run DCS equipped engines, use the DCS and TIU(they're cheap at $250 for the set), if you want to run DCC(non-DCS Protosound engines), go with the DCC equipment. If you like the MTH DCS protosound feature set and want to run non-MTH engines under DCS control with the DCS remote, convert them to DCS. 

The other aspect of course is if you are talking about going with MTH engines themselves, I would make sure you are satisfied with the 1:32 scale size as compared to the normal 1:29. Since it sounds like you are talking diesels only, I would take some time and see in person if possible some of the 1:29 and 1:32 scale offerings and see what models are available in each and decide what it is you like and want. In the steam world there are a lot of cool big engines avail in 1:32 by MTH that aren't available from anyone else in any other scale, but diesels have a good model offering in 1:29. If you plan on getting a yard switcher for doing switching operation, then the MTH engines will be of interest because of their remote firing protocouplers. Protocouplers can be retrofitted on non-MTH engines as I've done with some I've converted to DCS.

On the timing of the upgraded boards, it is hard to say when these will hit the street. MTH has been working on the new DCC compatible (O and G scale) Protosound boards for a while now so I imagine they will be out sooner rather than later. BUT you just never know, especially with the economy being what it is. 

The other thing to consider too is that MTH is supposed to release their new Remote and TIU's next year. So if you are thinking of holding off you will have that to consider as well. 

Jack, let me know if I missed something and good luck.


Raymond


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for the input. I'm not really sure what I was thinking. I looked through the available MTH engines and never noticed any mention of 1:32. I decided on 1:29 fairly early (a few months ago) because I'd just as soon have a wider range of rolling stock to choose from and have compatibility with as many accessories as possible, if only because I'm not totally sure what my railroad will be in a few years. Might as well give myself as many choices as possible.

On the other hand, I was pretty impressed with the MTH videos I found last night. The sound seemed exeptional even on my cheesy computer speakers, and I liked the way the sounds happened as soon as the button was pushed. I tried the NCE at the local train store's layout and was disappointed to note the time lag; it took a while for me to realize that the diesel horn that kept blowing was ME thinking the sound wasn't working. Part of the learning curve, I guess.

My time frame is another part of the equation; release dates are usually more than a bit optimistic. So, absent an overarching reason to alter my plans, I'll probably stick with my decision to go with the NCE. Compatability über alles.

Thanks,
jack


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If I don't misunderstand, the PS3 boards have at least basic DCC compatibility. 

Since MTH locos are upgradeable, it would stand to reason that the DCC functionality would only get better in the MTH locos as time went by, after all, if MTH thought it was important to have DCC compatibility, it must be at customer request, or company decision. 

So I would go forward with DCC, since as soon as you get a PS3 loco, you can at least set accel, decel, start speed (right?). 

The NCE throttles will do all 3 kinds of consisting, so you could consist, and with just a few locos, there is not a lot of disadvantage to use the "old style" consisting, that is compatible with DCC and MTH. 

Regards, Greg


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Jack, I’m now happy with the performance now it’s under control of the Lenz decoder. I’m still frustrated with how the sound operates (not how it sounds). Operating a Phoenix sound board under DCC is very easy, I didn’t find that with MTH, it just seem to hard. One thing I can’t stand about MTH sound is the cab crew talk, I wish I could turn it off. For a few reasons: you would not hear the crew talking as the loco is hissing away; it’s embarrassing to have a model making toy train sounds; would a cab crew even talk like that? 

In G scale I model Fn3, and MTH do not make any 1:20.3 models. In HO the 4-12-2 meets my period of modelling the UP. Would I get another HO MTH loco, depends, the reasons for that are outside the scope of this thread, and MLS as its really to do with other HO manufactures. I only brought HO up in MLS because I believe eventually PS3 is coming to G scale. 

Greg, you can change the acceleration rates, from memory it wasn’t as good as the Lenz’s, but I can’t remember why exactly, it was a while ago when I was mucking around with it. One big difference was the numbering. In DCC the bigger the CV number the longer it takes for the loco to accelerate. MTH just to be different it’s the other way round, smaller number, longer acceleration and it’s a different CV (from memory). I would like to hear what you think when MTH releases a G scale DCC compatible loco. 

Alan


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

According to MTH's website you can control the following features via DCC:

http://www.railking1gauge.com/detail.asp?item=80-3152-1 


When using a DCC controller, the following Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotive features are accessible: [*](F0) Headlight on/off[*](F1) Bell on/off[*](F2) Whistle/Horn on/off[*](F3) Start-up/Shut-down[*](F4) PFA initiate and advance[*](F5) Cab Light on/off[*](F6) Engine Sounds on/off[*](F7) Volume low, med, high, off[*](F8) Smoke on/off[*](F9) Forward Signal Sound[*](F10) Reverse Signal Sound[*](F11) Coupler Slack Sound[*](F12) One-Shot Doppler on/off[*](F13) Extended Start Up[*](F14) Extended Shut Down[*](F15) Labor Chuff[*](F16) Drift Chuff[*](F17) Smoke Volume low, med, high[*](F18) Single short whistle toot[*](F19) Coupler Close[*](F20) Feature Reset[*](F21) Idle Sequence 1[*](F22) Idle Sequence 2[*](F23) Idle Sequence 3[*](F24) Idle Sequence 4[*](F25) Brakes auto/off[*](F26) Cab Chatter auto/off[*](F27) Clickety-Clack auto/off[*](F28) Train Wreck[*]Proto-Sound 3.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring: Quillable Whistle With Freight Yard Proto-Effects [/list] 

***************************** 
Note (F26) "Cab Chatter auto/off" Use that to turn off the crew talk.

Interesting to see PS3 has the quillable whistle.


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

You may also want to check the owners manual, it has a full section on operating the engine under DCC control.

http://extranet.mth-railking.com/pd...14988I.pdf 

Looks like that for others wanting to understand more about controlling PS3 under DCC should take a look at the above link as well. It might clarify some questions.


Raymond


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg - I very much doubt MTH is making PS3 compatible with DCC for us. They stated clearly they are doing it for the HO crowd. We are just collatteral to that end. 

So do not be surprised that it takes a while for PS3 to show up in gauge one.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 16 Nov 2009 08:45 AM 


Note (F26) "Cab Chatter auto/off" Use that to turn off the crew talk.



Raymond
Raymond, yes your right thanks for jogging my memory. My DCC system only goes up to function 12, but the latest upgrade which I haven’t upgraded to goes up to F-28. That’s why I couldn’t turn it off. As soon as I get the lenz upgrade I’ll turn the guys talking away off.


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## wleasure2109 (8 mo ago)

Hexadecimal conversion for cv67-94 will let you choose your speed curve.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

wleasure2109 said:


> Hexadecimal conversion for cv67-94 will let you choose your speed curve.


That is a 13 year old thread you replied to, problem solved 13 years ago.


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