# Bearing wheels. Opinions ,Experience?



## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

My wall train project will have 6 foot diameter turns, still that's tighter than what most consider desirable. I was wondering if bearing wheel would ease the load on the engine when pull stock through the curves? Worthwhile investment?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Ball bearing wheel sets with the wheels turning independently will definitely help, but get pricey.

Available from LGB, Piko, Train-LI


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

OldNoob;

I have used the LGB ball bearing wheel sets on a four car passenger train pulled by an Atisto/Delton "Bumble Bee" C16 2-8-0. The locomotive was overheating before the wheels were installed, and now pulls its train without any heat problems. As Mike noted, they are expensive. If you will not be using a lot of rolling stock in that bonus room, they may just be worth the extra cost. The LGB ball bearing wheel sets also have electrical contacts, so wiring up lights for cabooses and passenger cars is pretty straightforward.

Just my $0.02,
David Meashey


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## rexcadral (Jan 20, 2016)

OldNoob said:


> My wall train project will have 6 foot diameter turns, still that's tighter than what most consider desirable. I was wondering if bearing wheel would ease the load on the engine when pull stock through the curves? Worthwhile investment?


I have a bunch of Roll-EZ wheels if you're interested. shaft is independent of each wheel. Each wheel has a ball bearing. There's some wear, originally chrome. some of them are painted brown. PM me if you're interested.

FWIW I did find the ball bearing wheels rolled better than stock plastic, but not as well as the friction-bearing wheelsets from USAT and Kadee (once appropriate white lithium grease was applied). I have wide turns, so I don't need the "differential" the independent bearing wheels give you.

I think I got 12 axles for $200. They're always on sale on EBay.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Thanks for all the help and sugestions, i didn't realize there were more than one option out there.



rexcadral said:


> FWIW I did find the ball bearing wheels rolled better than stock plastic, but not as well as the friction-bearing wheelsets from USAT and Kadee (once appropriate white lithium grease was applied). I have wide turns, so I don't need the "differential" the independent bearing wheels give you.
> 
> .


Im learning something every day. in my copier repair days we often replaced Bronze bearings that were basically a softer bronze bushing in which the steel shaft rotated. Im guessing "friction bearings" are basically the same.


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## BillBrakeman (Jan 3, 2008)

If your up to a challenge I have found two article on how to install ball bearings in Bmann trucks. The articles includes a source for ball bearings. The company is still in business. At the time of the posting the price of one bearing was $0.35 inc postage, 

If you are interested go to the Bachmann Trains Large Forum and search for, "Ball Bearings", and specify user: "veetwelve".

Bill


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill... your words seem to indicate bearings in trucks... does not help on curves as the op needs... you need the wheels turning indepentently of each other..

Greg


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## SophieB (Nov 22, 2015)

I've found the Roll-EZ wheels to be very stiff, especially when they're cold. Not convinced there's actually less friction than well lubricated metal wheels. The LGB sets spin much more freely all the time, but are ~twice as expensive.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I use Gary Raymond ball bearing wheels. LOTS of sizes available. Each wheel rotates by itself on the axle, so would help.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I get bearings from these guys http://www.avidrc.com/ 3mmx6mm with a flange. I put them in Aristo Trucks. Makes a Huge Difference. Each wheel rolls independently They a buck each. ( $1.00) I have not found a Truck yet to put them in since the demise of Aristo. But I am telling you it makes a huge difference. Well worth the effort. 

JJ


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ, how did you get the wheels on one axle turning independently? The bearings have to go between the axle and the wheel to be independent, but you say you put them in the trucks.

Am I misunderstanding?

As stated before, ball bearings in the journals will help rolling resistance on the straight, but not very effective on tight turns, which I believe is the question.

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

BBs & differentialed axles have always been a good idea, but until the Avid R/C, bearings for a buc,
deal came along it was always to expensive, the BB part that is, differentialing an axle is easy and 
cheap though... So in todays world U can make up BBinged, differentialed axles for less than $2.50
a pop that will work about as well the hi-priced spread... I have all the rolling stock that I use regularly
equipped with these bearings for several years now, about 80 pieces, even differentialed some of 
them, and have not one failure or problem of any sort with them... U won't have the electrical P/Us
afforded U by the hi-priced units, but who cares for most rolling stock... The usual caveat with BB 
equipped rolling stock though, don't store long-term in unconditioned spaces...
Paul R


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Paul, do you add some insulation between axle and wheel, or put just one bb in the "uninsulated" side, and bb the journals as well?

For most people, I would think they would need a mill or lathe to "create" a "differential" BB wheelset.

Please elucidate.

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
I put BBs in the journals only, leave the wheels intact on the axles, no need to mess with 
them at all... I cut the axles in the center, taking out what I want to remove, insert a single 
ball, steel or plastic, between the two axle stubs, with a piece of plastic or brass tubing cut 
to the required length slid over the whole thing... Works great, did some this way back in 
the mid 90s, and their still in service... I've probably oversimplified this, but anybody can 
quickly figure out what I am doing here... Having my own little machine shop is a big plus 
for these type of things, but U could do this with a hacksaw, a bench grinder, and a file...
Its kinda labor intensive, but the cost is about 25 cents !!! Gotta love that...
Paul R...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't see how you hold gauge of the wheelsets, clearly a metal ball between the 2 cut axles will set the minimum dimension of the back to back, but how do you keep the wheels from spreading away from each other?

Also how do you keep the tubing in place? glue to one half axle? then you have to pick the tubing exactly right, too small or large and you will get binding.

Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I don't see how you hold gauge of the wheelsets, clearly a metal ball between the 2 cut axles will set the minimum dimension of the back to back, but how do you keep the wheels from spreading away from each other?
> 
> Also how do you keep the tubing in place? glue to one half axle? then you have to pick the tubing exactly right, too small or large and you will get binding.
> 
> Greg


Paul;
Your differential is very ingenious, clever; complements all round. Got somewhat stuck on "differentialing".  There should to be 2 l's; differentialling. ( It's a rivet counting type of thing.  )

The axle sleeve you created is really a sleeve bearing. Doesn't it need lubrication if it's brass? If common plastic tubing maybe a tiny little lube as or if needed,. It seems there would also be a wear issue with a brass sleeve rubbing against the back of the wheel. The brass sleeve is always going to rub the back of either or both wheel. Could using PTFE (Teflon) tube being self lubricating and no wheel back wear. Using a PTFE ball (or other self lubricating material) there's no need to lube the ball to axle surfaces either. While I'd think dust getting in the axle sleeve would be a wear issue it sounds like you've not run into that issue.

With your differential solution you could forgo the journal bearing since the worst wear condition, fixed axle wheels going through curves, has been effectively removed.. It seems a small PTFE tube journal insert (friction fit) would be more than enough improvement for very low friction operation. But as cheap as those BB are and if going through the differential thing of course why not?


Greg; 
The cut axle with a single ball is made to keep the same dimension as the original back-to-back wheel spacing. The axle sleeve is nominally a mm less than the b2b dim. Then the axle end-to-end dimension doesn't change and all is well. The sleeve slipping off isn't an issue. Any side-to-side movement of either wheel or the total assembly is accounted for in the normal unaltered axle wheel s2s free plays in the journals. 

Seems to me the sleeve ID must be very close to the axle diameter so the wheels don't wobble. Here's where PTFE seems ideal. It could be the closest to the axle diameter and its self lubricating properties still allow for independent movement of either wheel under load. The wheels only need to move independently on curves. And if the PTFE tube does have just enough friction keep the wheels from moving independently on straight track that would be normal behavior.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The amount to which the back to back can spread will be the same as the original wheelset sideplay amount in the journals. If too much, it would made the guard rails on switches ineffective. I don't think lubrication of the tube is that critical because most of the time there will be little revolutionary difference between each side anyway. As an extreme example with an R1 circle, there would only be about 1.5 wheel revolutions difference between each wheel. 

Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Chris, still not answering my question about how to control going "wide".

Thank you Andrew, you get what I am asking. It seems to me that the width of the wheels can grow to the extent of the sideplay in the truck journals. If the half axles slide in and out of the center sleeve, then maybe operationally everything sort of works, sounds like this depends a lot on switches, wing rail and guard rail dimensions.

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, 
Everybody has the idea now, so I'll elaborate a little.. The "going wide" problem is solved in one of 
two ways, spacers between the journal & wheel to eliminate the float, the easy way, or the way I do
it, which is when I cut the axle for the BB insert, I take out only enough material to make the axle 
a predetermined length, as previously measured between the journals... The sleeve is free floating, 
an about a sixteenth of an inch shorter than the back to back.. Lubrication is not necessary, and most 
axles R std sizes, typically 3/16 th or 1/4 inch, so sleeve tubing is easy to come by, and loose BBs 
of the proper size R readily available too... While this is cheap an easy to do, I'm not sure it buys U 
that much with most track radii in service today, unless U have some heavy rolling stock, which is 
about the only time I use it... Hope all this is little clearer than mud...
Paul R


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, minimum gauge is controlled by the amount cut from the axle for the center ball bearing.

Maximum gauge is by shimming between the outside face of the wheel and the truck journal.

No lube needed in the center tube since it is almost the full length of the axle between the back faces of the wheels.

Probably either needs to be thin tube or plastic so as not to short the insulation between axle and wheel.

So, Paul, what is you minimum diameter? You must have a few tight ones to make this mod.

My guess on why this is needed on heavy stock is that for our curves, the "differential action" that the prototype enjoys from the fillet between the tread and flange is not enough for our models. Therefore there must be some slippage of the wheel on the rail on curves. I'd wager that heavier cars don't "wheel slip" as easily, thus more drag.

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

U got it about right Greg, thin wall tubing slightly shorter than the b2b spacing, spacers or axles 
cut to length to control the "going wide" problem... I got to playing around with BBs & differentials 
back in the early to mid 90s as part of some early R/C work I was doing with some old Tamiya 
6 meter RC equipment, an I had some heavy battery cars that needed all the help they could get..
My layout, built in the early 90s is all 4 ft radius, the biggest available at the time, its really a test 
track, I don't really "run trains" much on it at all, but I test a lot on it... The addition of BBs & diffing 
the axles did wonders for getting those heavy battery cars around the layout, albeit expensive at 
the time, but I normally run on much larger radius track these days. I posted a lot of the test results 
on the old forums of the day, LSOL and the Aristo forums, all long gone... Its only been the last few 
years that BBs have been available at prices that made this kind of stuff practical & affordable though...
Paul R...


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found the only stuff that actually needed the BB wheels are the stock I run on my pizza layouts, as they are under R1 diameter, it can get redonkulously expensive very very quickly.


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

At the risk of resurrecting an old thread,,, 
I happened to purchased a passenger car on EvilBay recently that surprisingly came with one LGB bearing wheel. So i was able to get a glance first hand at the difference they can make. So after seeing the results, now im pretty much motivated to spend the extra cash to purchase a couple sets.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I once purchased the single ball bearing wheel sets from Gary Raymond. Been working fine for years.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Remember that you want the 2 wheels to turn independently, which means there is at least one ball bearing in the "hub" of one wheel. 

If you have an LGB wheelset, then there should be ball bearings in both hubs, and little pins protruding from the axle for power pickup also.

I would imagine the car you have was retrofitted mainly for power pickup.

Greg


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## OldNoob (Apr 30, 2016)

Dan Pierce said:


> I once purchased the single ball bearing wheel sets from Gary Raymond. Been working fine for years.


 Good to know. ive been considering purchasing from him. He has a lot of options. Do they spin freely like the LGBs?



Greg Elmassian said:


> Remember that you want the 2 wheels to turn independently, which means there is at least one ball bearing in the "hub" of one wheel.
> 
> If you have an LGB wheelset, then there should be ball bearings in both hubs, and little pins protruding from the axle for power pickup also.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reminder. I think you are right the battery door was missing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

When you have a single ball bearing wheel, you have to ensure the axle spins in the journals freely. I do not see how this can be as low friction given the sloppy tolerances typical in G scale and the lack of any friction reducing device at the axle tops.

It seems to be a halfway point, in terms of friction reduction and cost, which might indeed fit your situation.

Greg


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found that LGB and Piko have the most free-rolling motion (of the ones I've tested). I think the Piko ones are a little cheaper, but be sure to order the smaller 30mm. The 35mm wheels are too large for most LGB, USA, BAC rolling stock. 

The only time I use the extra large 35mm is to convert older Aristo diesels into free-rolling "dummies"...saves power when running ABA lashups that don't really need that much traction. The wheelsets fit right in the brass journals.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a good tip to know about fitting the Aristo diesels.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

...An even cooler tip is when doing this you lower the locomotive the "easy way". Take the side frames off completely and then place them 1/4 or so higher up on the "A-frame", drill new holes and replace! This is how I lowered my fleet of RDC trailers. I swapped the fake Budd side frames for working AAR frames and didi modification mentioned...also cut off the brake gear to make them closer resemble the Budds since RDCs have discs anyways.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Your tips are on my web site, thanks!

Your link to your blog is broke by the way.

Greg


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