# DCC outdoors?



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Just how well does DCC really work in an outdoor environment?


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## Mark Thomas (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray,
Several club members (myself included) have been using DCC outside going on 4+ years now. Most of the club members are using the Digitrax system, I've heard good things about the NCE system as well. My opinion would be to look at all the systems and go with the one that you feel the most comfortable with. I like the way Aristocraft has adapted their product and given those of us that run DC / DCC or battery a simple easy to use plug in....wish USA Trains would follow their example. Good luck, I don't think you could go wrong.

-Mark


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

ditto on everything Mark said ..........


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ray, 

I have had great luck with DCC outside, and would certainly never go back to DC or switch to batteries. I run a wireless Massoth Navigator (well two now...my wife wanted her own she liked mine so much!) with MTSIII, so my power and receiver is all inside the house. I ran two wires to the track from inside the house and that's it. If your joint connections are good voltage drop is negligible due to the size of the rail. 
Here's a typical scenario at our place, in fact this happened last night when I got back from work: My 6 year old had a friend over who really wanted to see the trains run. So I spent about two minutes sweeping off the leaves that had accumulated in one corner, plugged in the power, sent the track cleaner around twice to get the splashed up dirt off after all the rain we've had lately, put two locos on (one for him, one for me) and away we went with no problems at all. I run brass LGB track, and find that the whole oxidation and dirty track issues have been blown WAY out of proportion by people with vested interests. I can guarantee the time I spend watching the track cleaner go around a couple times is a lot less than the f*&ting around they do with their batteries or trying to solder SS track, not to mention the eventual disposal/environmental costs. All that being said, every person's requirements are different. What I have learned, though, is that you get what you pay for in DCC, and so bear that in mind when you look at the systems, and take the time to read the online manuals to see what they are/aren't capable of. 
Good luck with it! 
Keith


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ray, I've been running DCC outside for 3 years, no problems. Well, there was one issue, when it got cold (below 38 degrees F) my wireless didn't work well. However, NCE came out with an upgrade to the radio this past Spring and now the range is incredible; did a test and was able to communicate while 300' from the base unit! So I'm hoping the cold issue is resolved, but it hasn't been cold enough yet to test the new radio. 

But if Sandy Eggo is San Diego, you wouldn't have that problem any who


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 11/05/2008 10:29 AM
Hi Ray, 

I have had great luck with DCC outside, and would certainly never go back to DC or switch to batteries. I run a wireless Massoth Navigator (well two now...my wife wanted her own she liked mine so much!) with MTSIII, so my power and receiver is all inside the house. I ran two wires to the track from inside the house and that's it. If your joint connections are good voltage drop is negligible due to the size of the rail. 
Here's a typical scenario at our place, in fact this happened last night when I got back from work: My 6 year old had a friend over who really wanted to see the trains run. So I spent about two minutes sweeping off the leaves that had accumulated in one corner, plugged in the power, sent the track cleaner around twice to get the splashed up dirt off after all the rain we've had lately, put two locos on (one for him, one for me) and away we went with no problems at all. I run brass LGB track, and find that the whole oxidation and dirty track issues have been blown WAY out of proportion by people with vested interests. I can guarantee the time I spend watching the track cleaner go around a couple times is a lot less than the f*&ting around they do with their batteries or trying to solder SS track, not to mention the eventual disposal/environmental costs. All that being said, every person's requirements are different. What I have learned, though, is that you get what you pay for in DCC, and so bear that in mind when you look at the systems, and take the time to read the online manuals to see what they are/aren't capable of. 
Good luck with it! 
Keith

Strange.
You ever tried battery power?

I've run dcc (indoors), 16 years ago, with lgb track, tried track power, and in two months gave up.
The power and acidic soils ate the lgb joiners out at the sharp bends.

Track, wheel and pickup cleanliness, yes, wires to the track, buried in ballast, get a good freeze after a hard rain, locks the wires in the ballast, then it heaves.
Rips all the wires off.

You using clamps or stock lgb joiners?

Clamp your track, expansion and contraction prevents you from effectively attaching the track to anything solid.

Elevated roadbed?
Not attached?

BIG problem.

No slug tracks?
No bird poop?

No sap from the trees?

Temperate climes, yeah, but around here, no way.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Ha ha! You took longer than I thought to respond, but good to see you're still paying attention. 

To answer your questions though Dave: 
Yes, and I hate batteries and chargers even more than ever... 
My two feed wires come in perpendicular, are clamped to the rails, have a loop buried, and very little deep frost here. 
90% stock LGB joiners with paste, 10% Hillman clamps. 
Track is floating in 1/4" manufactured fines, below that about 4" of 3/4" crush compacted. The track is in a flower bed about 1' off the ground. 
Slug trails, bird doo and sap...yup, but I'd want to remove that even if it was battery powered...don't like bringing all that in on my shelves either. 
Temperate yes, but I still go out and plow snow when we get it...only problem is over trestles where it will ice over. 
Like I said, every situation is different...for me it was a perfect fit... 
I do run live steam as well, and after a while I use a hard sponge soaked with some LGB smoke fluid to take off the oil prior to running electrics again. 

Keith


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Many of us run DCC outdoors in all climates. With higher voltage on the rail at all times their is less problems than analog DC. With 10-12 amps at 20-24 volts at your command you have quite a bit of power ready.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you come over in the daytime next time, I'll let you experience it and see what you think. It works great, and many "horror stories" are greatly exaggerated. 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

And yet, all offers to come up here, install it, and MAINTAIN it were refused..... 

I have a good one for ya. 
We've run through 4 power outtages (one for 5 days), and ran trains (the batteries were charged and ready to go). 

How many have you run through?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

We don't have power outages down here, they are all used up in the northwest! 

It's pretty darn rare, but I have a 10kw generator, so I do not have any potential problems. 

ha ha ha.... the climate is just too nice here... sorry! 

It works fine in the 2 weeks of annual rain too... 

Regards, Greg


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

Greg has the right idea, a generator.. But if you do not have a generator you can use the 1 or 2 car batteries to power the system.. 

BulletBob


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Do I run DCC outdoors. Yep been doing so since 1992 in rain, snow, ice, power outages and this is the NE so lots of acid rain and dirt.

We have 2000-2500 ft of track outdoors and a load of locomotives.

Track is floating in gravel.

And yes I also have live steam / RC/ and the like but preder DCC.

1/2 of the railroad is brass track and 1/2 is stainless steel. I do recommend stainless as it works better for this application.

I have also converted about 2/3 of my roster to hybrid drive which combines the benefits of batteries and the benefits of DCC.


There are lots of good systems in the large scale maket. For my railroad DCC with hybrid drive is the best fit.

Stan Ames
www.tttrains.com/largescale


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

No plastic frogs. 
No power-routing in the turnouts. 
No microswitches in the turnouts to A) rust or B) explode. 
No worry about going to visit another railroad and whether or not they have 21V max or 23.5V max. 
No worries is they have an older DCS system . 
No worries about taking a 1K ohm resistor to get my engine to "program". 
Don't care if the railroads I visit are straight DC or not. 
Run on live-steam railroads with some engines utilizing shorted drivers. 
Don't have to listen to Stanley. 

I've got more.......


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well i really do not worry about my DCC locos being able to run on some one else s RR as they will run either or. Battery is such a bore charging and all that goofy stuff. Power goes out just crank up the old gen and run run run trains no interruptions to re charge. I've seen the light.







BTW pay my way and I'll have you up and running in no time







Later RJD


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 11/06/2008 6:04 PM
No plastic frogs. 
No power-routing in the turnouts. 
No microswitches in the turnouts to A) rust or B) explode. 
No worry about going to visit another railroad and whether or not they have 21V max or 23.5V max. 
No worries is they have an older DCS system . 
No worries about taking a 1K ohm resistor to get my engine to "program". 
Don't care if the railroads I visit are straight DC or not. 
Run on live-steam railroads with some engines utilizing shorted drivers. 
Don't have to listen to Stanley. 

I've got more.......


Dave, 

It really has gotten humorous how you try so hard to misrepresent things and can not miss an opertunity to try to insult others. 

I have no problems with any of the above. No difference, just a different system. I will admit you have me on one item. On my railroad I use mostly track signal and thus my live steam must have insulated wheels. It is a shortcoming I am more then willing to accept. Fortunately most manufacturers have learned that insultated drives for live steam increases sales.

You have chosen a system for your railroad that fits your needs. Others have chosen systems that more fit their needs. No big deal. The hobby supports both.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I think this is just about the funniest thing I have seen. 

I've talked to some others in the nmra. 
Gatta have universaility of dcc. 
Why? 
So when you bring an engine to my RR you can address it from my controller. 

Try and try, cannot explain to them you don't want that. 
You don't want everyone on the same frequency. 

They CANNOT get they narrow minds around the term "fully self-contained". 

Packet transfer. 

What is the percentage on an indoor, scrupulously clean layout? 
What's the best you can get (without your capacitive transfer) outdoors? 

Know how many folks with dcc of any ilk can run on my railroad? 

Know how many gauge one railroads I can run on? 

How may booster districts would I need for 20 full trains doing wayfreight ops at once on 1500 feet of up to 4%. 

Keep it up, Stanley. 
We do so love to read what ytou put in print. 

So, tell me, harkening back to the thread on 3-truck Quasi-Nami Shays........ 

What happens if someone takes his locomotive to a railroad that's MTS/ 
What if that person has swallowed, hook, line and sinker, "plug and play" and has no idea how to fix it, even if so instructed?


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2008)

Basically, if your railroad works with DC, it will work better with DCC. 

If DC doesn't work, for any number of reasons, DCC won't work either. 

I've not yet experienced any of the problems, save one, that TOC thinks are so fatal and I've been using DCC out of doors for over 10 years. That one problem is track oxidation and dirt, it happens, but it is no big deal, at least in my environment. 

However, I also run battery power and I have experienced failed batteries, intermittent operation, sometimes poor R/C range. Maybe I'm not using the "right" stuff in my battery power conversions, but the experience has left me with the "meh" opinion.


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## Snoq Pass (Jan 2, 2008)

Cougar Rock Rail, ".... I run brass LGB track, and find that the whole oxidation and dirty track issues have been blown WAY out of proportion by people with vested interests. ...." 

I do maintance to a group that uses DC track power with LGB locomotives and LGB brass track indoors. They run 365/366 days a year, 7 days a week, ~18 hours a day. If you do NOT clean the track the motos on the locomotives will be screwed. How do I know this, I have TEN motors and EIGHT locomotives at my house waiting for motors due to UNCLEANED track. So, you tell me....... Am I blowing things out of proportion? 

Cougar Rock Rail, "....I can guarantee the time I spend watching the track cleaner go around a couple times is a lot less than the f*&ting around they do with their batteries...." 

That is probably true. But how many times do you have to clean your track inorder to run your train? 100% time.....90% of the time.... I run battery RCS and the track is cleaned when there are large objects that would derail a train (and that is done while I am running the train mind you). So, in the long run, who spends the most wasted time....... 

For me, in the Pacific Northwest, DCC is NOT an option. For me battery RCS is the ONLY option. But that is ME.....


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Snoq Pass on 11/10/2008 9:20 AM


That is probably true. But how many times do you have to clean your track inorder to run your train? 100% time.....90% of the time.... I run battery RCS and the track is cleaned when there are large objects that would derail a train (and that is done while I am running the train mind you). So, in the long run, who spends the most wasted time....... 

For me, in the Pacific Northwest, DCC is NOT an option. For me battery RCS is the ONLY option. But that is ME.....


To answer your question we had anoperating session on Sunday. 

Time spend in clearing railroad - about 2 hours. We had had a lot of bad weather and the leaves were wet and really think in spots. 

Time cleaning track - about 15 minutes not a necessary step and not always done. After a storm there is a lot of real dirt on the rails and I perfer not to get this dirt in the drive trains so I wipe the rails down with demin attached to a pole sander. I walk briskly in this step and only stop to get the small twigs (and sometime large branches) off the track. We have 2000 ft of track to walk so thats why it takes 15 minutes. 

While each of us have personnel preferences for what we prefer, there are no geographical boundries. 

With DCC as a packet transmission approach you have a full range of choices from DCC with track power, to full RC/Battery DCC, to a variety of hybrid solutions inbetween. There are a lot of manufacturers in the DCC world providing a welth of options. 

In Large Scale we are very fortunate to have a wide variety of good options to control our railroads. Each of us has chosed a control option that we like for our railroads. Each has advantages and each has disadvantages. In the end all that matters is that we are happy with how our railroad operates.

Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/sjrp/


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Snoq Pass: I never said I don't clean the track, but like George says, it is no big deal. A few passes with the track cleaner and it's done...which I'd have to do regardless of how I powered the trains, to get off the splashed up gravel, twigs etc. My loco wheels are extremely clean, as are all my cars which run steel wheels. 
So I'm confused: You say that if you don't clean the track "the motors will be screwed", yet then you go on to say you don't clean your outdoor track. Hmmmm....


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've been at this hobby seriously now for about a year, and I have to say the single most overblown issue is track cleaning. It's just not that big a deal! 

I have a modest sized layout, probably a couple hundred feet, 98% brass and I have clamps on about half the joints. I run a track cleaning car around a few times and that's it. It's al little bit worse in the Spring, I assume because plant are shedding sap, but overall it's hardly worth commenting on.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

You are exactly right Lownote.

I have found that if you want to run track power with near 100% reliably you really need to have 100% direct to rail clamps on all connections. Every person I've seen that's had problems with track power was not using clamps. Also, if you have folks running 24/7/365 and they are killing drivetrains from studdering then it's rediculous that they have not been told to go with Stainless steel track to eliminate the problem. Be cheaper in the long run rather than killing engines. I have one oval that has been outside 4 years now and I never clean it. (have Stainless steel with 100% SS direct to rail clamps on every connection.) At one point I didn't run on my original oval for over a year and finally drove a lit passenger train on it, never missed a beat. No flickering or anything. I actually couldn't believe it.

I will say that if you have your layout under lots of pine trees, I can see sap being a PIA. I still wouldn't run my trains on rails coated with sap, it would great a sticky mess!


Raymond


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## Snoq Pass (Jan 2, 2008)

Cougar Rock Rail, "....So I'm confused: You say that if you don't clean the track "the motors will be screwed", yet then you go on to say you don't clean your outdoor track. ...." 

I am talking about two different things. The first section is complete track power. The second section is complete on-board battery RCS. They are NOT the same thing. If you are running track power and do not clean the track the locomotives will studder every now and then, that will kill the motor in the long run. That is because the motor is going full forward, full stop, then full forward again. Doing this over and over and over and etc. will eventually kill the motor. Now for my battery RCS, since I got both of my locomotives in 2004 and 2005, I have NEVER cleaned the wheels on them. And yet they still work like and look like they are brand new......


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry Snoq, I thought you were saying the motors were being killed by the dirt somehow, not by stuttering due to bad power pickup--that's the part I couldn't figure out. I fully agree on your point-it's critical that the track is at least clean enough to prevent stuttering, which usually just equates to getting the loose stuff like twigs and splashed up ballast off the track. If it is surface clean then slight oxidation is a minor issue.


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## majral (Jan 13, 2008)

Well to add my own tuppence worth, I have been running DCC outside for about 12 months now, I have about 300' of main line, brass rail, no wiring to speak of conductivity through the rail joiners wth graphite paste, jumper leads to sidings and spurs, one or two isolated sections. I am have installed a feed to the furthest point from the track supply and I am gradually bonding the rail joints to ensure conductivity. 

Track is on a low PT structure on piles, partially loose ballasted, nominal 1-2mm expansion at joints, no problems with movment or buckling through expansion. 

Extremes of temperature are not a problem in New Zealand, but heavy rain, high winds and extremly changable weather are part of the course. Biggest problem is in keeping the line free of needles, twigs, tree branches,and other plant debris brought down by nearly constant high winds, bird poo etc. 

The need for track cleaning seems to be mainly related to humidity, a good heavy shower of rain seems to work wonders. 

For me the biggest dilema especially on a narrow gauge line is whether to convert turnouts at crossing places to remote operation to allow a more intensive operation at meets or stick with the more leisurly mode of operation originally planned.

The choice of DCC over DC or battery operation was governed mainly by already having the basis of a system with trottles and command stations and knowing wht was possible. I have avoided digital sound, personally I believe that outside of12' 1" attempts to replicate locomotive sound tends to detract from the realism of a model, I much prefer the rumble of metal wheels on metal rail.

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)




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## dillo99 (Jan 3, 2008)

I ran DCC outside (and inside) for the past 4-5 years. I just gave up on it and switched to batteries. I put this off for a long time but I am glad I finally did it. For me, track cleaning and connectivity were issues but I know for some, in some climates/situations it is not a big deal. I agree with the point made above that if you have trouble with DC, you are likely to have trouble with DCC. 

Just one opinion.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I was not going to say anything since I have not run "outside" in many months. Most of my trains and track are now in the unheated and uncooled crawl space under my house where there is no rain, snow or trees but there is a significant temperature and humidity variance.

I was going to run outside a few days ago but instead spent most of the time cleaning track...

The cleaning was done with a leaf blower and with my fingers getting huge quantities of leaves, twigs, acorns and other outside "stuff" out and away from the buildings, track and around the layout. Last week I spent a day just burning the huge piles of leaves from around the layout (more than enough for 100 garbage sacks).

The simple truth is that if anyone is going to play with trains in the garden - there is going to be a fair amount of maintenance. 

Once the leaves etc. were gone I ventured out with my first train and it ran fine.

The facts are that it was a FA/B-1 ABBA with 32 track contacts running on a 15 amp power supply on stainless steel track with nickel plated turnouts (single track feed with just rail joiners and conductive paste) which are laid on composite decking from ground level to 6 feet above the ground. Perhaps today I will venture back outside with a single loco running on MTS/DCC. If it works fine - that's OK and if there is any sort of difficulty I will figure it out and take care of whatever problems might arise.

My point is that we all eventually figure out how to do whatever it is that we want to do.

Yesterday I bought about 100 AA batteries for my remotes. I know that when I get around to using them I will find corroded batteries and damaged terminals just as I often find them when I replace 9 volt batteries in my sound units. I broke a perfectly good digital sound system when I removed the worn out 9 volt battery and about 25% of the 9 volt connectors break when I replace corroded batteries in sound systems.

If someone likes DCC they will probably be happy with it just as others will be happy with track power and others yet happy with battery power.

I think that some people gravitate toward battery power because it allows multi-users on the same layout at the same time. I have gone the opposite direction in that I have recently added MTS/DCC capability to my layout plus the added capability of letting visitors run one of 8 trains I will have available with individual LGB remote controls.

This way visitors can run one of my trains or bring their own and run it. A friend is doing the same so we will have (at least) two layouts with trains and remotes available for visitors.

One big advantage of "Rail Power" is that it offers the option of running:

1. Analog Track Power
2. MTS/DCC Digital Track Power
3. DCS Digital Track Power
4. Aristo-Craft On-Board Battery or Track Power
5. Airwire Battery or Track power (I woud guess that RCS can do either as well)
6. Battery Power
7. Live Steam

One big disadvantage of Battery or Live Steam layouts is that they typically cannot run anything other than battery or steam powered trains.

It tends to be our choice of power that often enables each of us to find whatever best suits us. There are neither good or bad systems - just choices for us to make.

Some of us may live in harsh climates that have a direct influence on our choices but for most of us we can find what we like and make it work.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Finally Jerry, someone gives the simple un-biased facts! I don't have 2 cents worth on this but I may have one. Here is my situation and I think it's worth sharing. I have been collecting LGB stuff for the last 3 years since I got my MTS starter set for Chistmas. As I am typing this, my 4 year old is playing with it under the tree. {notice USAT analog GP-38 soon to be 1st battery project} 








Since going to Ric's battery powered train ops sessions twice a year... I am convinced this is my future path. EXCEPT! 
I have a pallet load of LGB (no longer available) MTS/DCC stuff. Therefore, I really have no option but to use what I have when I run my 1st 200' of track in the front yard. I will gradually convert to battery as new stock is aquired and completely if the DCC gives me too many problems. 
( I have thought of selling off all the LGB stuff which should supply PLENTY of funds for more R/C engines and much needed track, but I'm too lazy to do it ) 

JB


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 12/08/2008 8:35 AM

( I have thought of selling off all the LGB stuff which should supply PLENTY of funds for more R/C engines and much needed track, but I'm too lazy to do it ) 

JB


Hi JB,

You have brought up some very good points.

Why the heck should you choose to give up anything?

If you and your son like your MTS Starter Set keep it and keep having fun with it.

If you already have a bunch of LGB "stuff" why choose between enjoying it and enjoying something else?

If you want to put a battery system into your USAT analog GP-38 go ahead and do it and enjoy it.

So what if you end up with MTS. Analog and battery power?

I'd like to see someone try to explain to your 4 year old son why he could only be happy with one type of toy.

Sometimes I think the large scale world is too much like religion and politics with too much focus on trying to sort out who is right and who is wrong.

Your son does not need a preacher or a politician to tell him what will make him happy. He just sees a toy and immediately knows if he likes it or not.

My battery powered LGB Handcar is obviously a joke (I cannot imagine anyone wanting to put a battery system into a handcar) but that same handcar would be problematic on any layout (as would just about any 0-4-0). On the other hand if I want a handcar or a 0-4-0 (and I have them) I make "adjustments" to get them to work or I accept the fact that I should expect conductivity problems with anything rocking on 4 rotary electric contacts (wheels) mounted on a rigid frame.

Perhaps we need to approach this hobby more like children than as adults and we might end up having more fun.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot of good points here. Any time you ask for opinion you open a can of worms. Just remember its your RR you run what works for you and to heck with anything else. Multiple types of power are great, gives one many choices and you don't have to deplete your equipment. Later RJD


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 12/07/2008 6:25 AM









LOL


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I have been reading this thread with interest, being new to G scale (not model railroading or DCC).

These are a few of my thoughts and understandings.

I use DCC in HO and had no troubles and I would like to try DCC outdoors when I get round the laying some track.

I have installed a decoder into a Bachmann Connie (Lenz Gold + hybrid drive + Phoenix Sound), and it works great indoors! But I won’t go putting decoders into everything until I have tested it outdoors on track which requires higher maintenance!

Do I think I will have trouble with DCC outdoors? Not much more then battery power, because in my back yard debris will be more of an issue. I do plan to make a serious piece of track cleaning car for the rails (not removing debris), which would be battery powered. If I need to do a quick clean of the main to get the trains going quickly I can just send the battery car out to clean the rails before hand. 

I can certainly see the points for battery power; the thought of not wiring things up is tempting! The wiring itself does not worry me, it’s the maintenance.

I know this is not everyone as quite a few have tried battery and DCC and picked what suits their needs best. It seems DCC users thinking keeping things charged is huge effort, and battery users think DCC users spend all there time cleaning track. From reading this posts its not always this easy.

Me doing a small feasibility study of laying track outdoors in the elements will soon tell me what type of maintenance is required and to what level in my backyard. Hopefully from that I will know if DCC is the right path or maybe battery should be considered.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2008)

Track maintenance is not a big deal in SoCal. This may be different elsewhere. I use brass track because that was what was available when I laid my track. More recent reports indicate that stainless steel works better outside than brass.


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## Peter Osborne (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm running DCC outside in CT on Aristo brass track I put down in 2001. I used the Aristo rail joiners and LGB conductive paste and I think I've had one continuity break in all that time. The only problem I've had is with the XL switches losing power to the movable rails. My track gets a good cleaning in the spring and a light clean with a three truck shay pushing a plow and Trackman 2000 around a few times at the start of each session.


I have decided to forgo any locomotives with less than 8 power pickups, but that's not too much of a hardship. I think, as someone else said, you can make it work either way, battery or track power. It's all a matter of choice and then living with your decision.


Run trains, have fun.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The question of battery power vs track power is too black and white. The answer is seldom a simple yes or no.

Before I replaced my outside track with stainless steel track and nickel plated switches it was all brass track and brass switches. Due to the differences in cleaning I did not wish to mix brass with nickel plated and stainless and I was going to a double mainline so a major change was needed.

After I removed my 8 year old old brass track and turnouts I gave the brass track to a friend who had helped me rebuild my layout. He has used it without any significant problems. I cleaned and reused the LGB brass turnouts on my portable trailer layout. There had never been a problem with the brass track when I used it outside and the actual track cleaning was never a major issue. 

When I look back at the issues I did have with running track power outside on brass track it had a lot more to do with what I was using than with the brass track itself.

The "problems" I identified turned out to be mainly:

1. Non-LGB turnouts that had tiny connecting wires that were screw connected. I felt the wires were way too small and the screws kept coming loose. Why use 18 - 10 gauge feeder wires when a turnout will cut the current capacity with what looks like a #22 wire? That may be OK with running a 0-4-0 but not for running a ABBA pulling 10 lighted streamliners.

2. I discovered that many if not most of my inexpensive Bachmann 10 wheelers had several wheels where the electrical contact was not working and it's rigid frame reduced the track contact even further as the loco rocked along less than perfectly flat track.

3. The fewer electrical contacts a loco had with the track dramatically decreased the track contact and this could be significantly lowered further depending on the quality of the wheel surfaces (bottom AND sides) both because of the contacts from the circuit boards to the wheels and the wheel contact to the rails. A rigid frame prevents the wheels from floating on less than perfectly level rails.

4. Multiple engine consists that were not MUed together had a much greater tendency for one or more locos to momentarily lose track contact and jerk or otherwise cause problems such as derailing.

5. None of my track or turnouts were actually down on the ground and in the dirt (and water) where they would have been subjected to much more severe contamination and other problems.

In short, the simple solution for me (as already mentioned) was to avoid locos without a minimum of eight (confirmed) electrical contacts with the rails. This does not include 5 contacts working on one rail and 3 contacts working on the other rail. 

If the loco does not have 8 track contacts I would add metal wheels with electrical contacts to the tender or the first coach or something or in some cases to sell the loco and buy one that did have at least 8 track contacts.

I am not suggesting that anyone should or needs to do what I do or what I did. They are just steps that I took to minimize any potential problems that I might run into.

Track rails are nothing more or less than electrical conductors. The worse the environment you put them into the more potential problems that can happen.

A car that is driven on paved roads and is parked in a garage will have fewer problems than a car driven on unpaved roads and parked in the weeds.

When I see someone converting to battery power and see what they were running on track power I often wonder if it was their choice of locomotives and turnouts and other non track issues that resulted in their decision. 

There is nothing wrong with a $99 loco until we start expecting more from it than is reasonable to expect from the price paid. Sometimes the solution is as simple as adding a few more electrical contacts to it. That's a lot cheaper than a battery conversion - but if a battery conversion is desired that's OK too.

Jerry


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