# Roadbed Question



## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Greetings Everyone,

I am beginning to expand on my layout and plan to have about 2% grade so I can have a trestle and a tunnel, at the behest of my son Jonathan







. I have taken measurements of the rased bed area and will sketch the current mainline plan and the proposed addition to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. For now though I've attached the following pictures of my current mainline and the proposed addition (approx 125 feet). Sorry for the rough sketch...I did it quickly in Photoshop Elements.

After researching this site and forum I think I'm 90% sure about using a ladder system using strips of PVC material to lay the track on and then backfilled with dirt. I have some questions I hope some of you experienced with this might be able to answer.

1. I found some white 5 1/2" wide by 3/4" thick and 12' long PVC board by Verdana at the local Home Depot. I would need to cut strips for the sides and wonder what kind of blade and saw I should use (thinking that plastic gets hot and can melt)? Will a regular table saw be ok with this material?

2. I was also thinking of using 1 1/2" or 1 1/4" Sched 40 PVC pipe for the risers. How deep should I bury these and should I use an anchor such as concrete to set them in? I am located in Central Calfiornia so we have pretty mild weather compared to some. 

3. I'm also happy to take any suggestions on the additional mainline.







































Other than the cost of the material and having to wait until payday to get I'm pretty close to being ready to get this project going.

I appreciate any suggestions

Thanks,
Richard


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Here is another picture with my Photo Elements sketch but with text marking a proposed waterfall, trestle, and pond...

Richard


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## SoCalJimH (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi Richard,

I used the same rail bed idea except I used TREX for my strip material. I used a RIP blade in my 10" table saw with no problems and ripped the material to about 5/8" strips. I liked the TREX material as is comes in brown or gray and blends in well under the ballast. One issue is to store the TREX on a flat surface before and after ripping. I used 1 1/4" PVC pipe for the verticals. I pounded the pipes into my clay/mix soil until it stopped. Seems I was able to drive them in about 12 to 18 inches and I left at least 8 inches to trim down as needed. I placed my posts every 30" and then in some areas built trestles around them. I painted the PVC brown/gray and they disappear in the trestle work. 


My layout is in So Calif and has been up for about 5 years with no problems. It even took a good bash when one of the palm trees dropped a frond on it. (20lbs- 30feet) Bent the track up but the roadbed/trestle came out fine.

Good Luck!


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Richard,

Couple things...Make sure you cant find a 1 1/2" x 3/4" PVC trimboard. I got mine at my local Menards, I'm not sure they have a Menards out there but I would assume HD and Lowes would have it also. I found mine stocked by the garage door trim. It would be a lot easier if you could find the 1 1/2" stuff then you wouldnt have to rip it. A standard saw will cut the PVC stuff just fine. I'm not sure about heat, I know that blade can get awful hot but I thought that PVC stuff could really handle quite a bit of heat.

As far as the supports go. That is a matter of opinion. I used 3/4" PVC pipe and it has worked great. I dont have any stability issues because I fillied in around the ladder with dirt. There were those that told me to go larger diameter so my ladder would be more stable but for me the 3/4" has performed well. With that said, the larger the pipe the more stable your ladder will be. But, the larger the pipe the harder it is to get in the ground.

The anchor method is also up for debate. You asked about anchoring the post in the ground with cement. Yes that would be the most stable, but I think it is overkill. Plus it is definately more expensive and time consuming. Since you said that you live in the mild climate of CA I would say that pounding the pipe directly in the ground 18 - 24" is more than enough (another reason I chose 3/4" dia pipe, so it was easier to pound in the ground). I doubt you have a problem with frost heave and dont really need to worry about it. 

Thats about all I can offer based on my limited experience.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Jim and Jake...thanks for the suggestions. All of them are very much appreciated. Jake, I think I was looking at the Verdana trim as you suggested...HD had quite a variety of sizes. Your idea of using the thinner strips to avoid having to rip on a table saw is noted...thanks. Jim, I''ll have to price the Trex versus this Verdana stuff...the nice thing about where I live is that the weather is very mild so I could paint the white plastic if I had too...

both of you have given me some things to really think about.

Thanks,
Richard


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard,

I used 1 1/2" pipe set 30" in the ground. I drill 3" holes, then back filled.
I also used 3/4 x 1 1/2 pvc house trim for the roadbed.
If you are going higher then 2' I would use a bigger pipe.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, 
Go back and look again. I purchsed my first loop of PVC trim board from HD last summer.I was able to find the 1 1/2 x 3/4 in 12 foot lengths as well as a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 12' length. I cut that square piece into the spacer blocks. I let it weather all fall and got a loop constructed and laid approximately where it will be be the time snow started. It staywed out all winter, not staked down, but with no track on it. So far this spring and now summer I've improved the garden bed where it is and am ready to purchase the stakes and fasten the roadbed down levelling it as I go and then lay the track on it. I will ballast it after I mulch the rest of the garden. I keep hoping to get it running but work on the house and other commitments keep me busy with other things. 

Chas


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## 6323 (Jan 17, 2008)

With the TREX/Composite roadbed, HOW does one go about building 
a mainline/siding section? I'm thinking of going that route for a section
of my layout. eventually, having 1 reverse loop and a wye. With a couple of 

sidings in between. Using 10 foot Diameter curves, since I'm barely able to squeeze them in!

Anything smaller, and a couple of locomotives will not work. Anything bigger, I just do NOT have the space!
Information appreciated.
Thanks.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Keith, 

You would most likely rip the trex down to an approx 2" wide strip. Set it on end and put a spacer in the center. It seems most use about a 1 3/4" spacer. Some will not rip the trex board and just set it on end with spacers between. That is more robust, but it also means the roadbed is thicker, and more difficult to cover. 

My one concern about Trex is, if I'm not mistaken, it has a wood byproduct in it. Long term exposure will eventually cause the material to break down. We are talking many years, but if you bury the Trex, the break down will be accellerated. At least that is how I understand it.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Warning: What was sold to me as Trex, here in Tucson, did not like being cut up at all and much of it crumbled. 
I ripped it for ladders and stakes/ spacers. 

Not all experience this. 

Rumor has it that the outer surface protects the whole, where as ripped open sides are prone to fail. End cuts aren't as bad. 
While waiting for a loco to arrive I did an elaborate elevated section along the back of my house, to a wye before one leg ran across a long arched bridge to ground level. Then it rained, the loco arrived and I decided that On3 on the ground wouldn't be feasable in my area. Since it was already up I left it in place for several years and watched it change. Expansions did not contract back to where it started, 1 1/2" x 1/4" x2 with block spacers ladders sagged between uprights and the surface crumbled... This spring it all went to the dump. 
I had considered using the elevated section for On3, but the ladder laid on PT 2x6" warped and curved like a snake from a pretty tangent. 

The breakdown seemed to be heat and sunlight caused. I'm located SE of Tucson. 

John


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## 6323 (Jan 17, 2008)

If I do go this route, not all of the roadbed would be buried. 
Just a short section out front, where I transition from floating track, to elevated track in back. 
I tried the Split Jaw stuff once, and will NOT use that trash again!! 
Roadbed material warped real bad! roadbed looked like a rollercoaster! 
And there would be a pretty good grade from front to back as it is. 
A good 12-18 inch drop. Best guess right now. 
And with my feet and knees......Getting up/down is becoming a real chore! 
Thanks to: Diabetes, blood clot, pulmonary embolism. 
Anyway, 
Appreciate the information. 
Thanks.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

After reading all of the replies I've decided to go with 3/4" schedule 40 PVC pipe buried in the ground as risers. I'm wary of anything with "composite" in the name if it's going to be touching ground so I'm going to purchase the Vinyl Trim Plank sold at Home Depot. They have strips 5/8" thick by 1-1/2" wide and 12' long that I'll use for the sides ...it's solid throughout. They also have 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" square that I can cut to size for the spacers. Since most of the new track will be in shade under 3 redwood trees I think it should hold up. Central California weather is pretty mild compared to other areas that some of you are from. 

I'll then back fill the risers with all the extra dirt sitting on driveway from a previous project.

Now my challenge is to figure the rise every two feet for a 2% grade to get from ground level to about 11" high...

Richard


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Richard,

That is the exact same materials as I used and I notice no stability problems, since I buried the ladder. Look at my builder's thread for what I did. Building of the DBH


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

.45 inches in 2 ft. To raise 11 inches, you'll need 550 inches to get up, then 550 to get back down.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Jake, your previous post is where where I got the idea. I think it's the best solution for my situation, so thanks for the suggestion. I also appreciate the link to your site...I'll definitely take a look. 

Torby...thanks for the grade calculation...I was just about to post a new question to make sure I was thinking correctly mathematically...you've helped a ton. I've actually got about 45' to work with both ways...so I think I'll be fine. 

Richard


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I just posted the following question in the "tools" forum but thought I would also add it here since it somewhat applies the process of building the roadbed... 

In the Trestle, track and roadbed forum I have been inquiring about building a ladder system to create a grade on a new addition of my railroad. In the discussion some have mentioned drilling holes in the ground to insert 3/4" PVC pipe for risers as opposed to just pounding them in the ground. What do some of you use to drill the hole a few feet down? I have a nice cordless drill by Craftsman but it's got the regular shaft, etc. Do I need to rent something from Home Depot or other source? 

I appreciate any suggestions. 

Richard


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I'd not waste my time with digging a hole. Plus, once you dig the hole you have to tamp around the stake to get it to stay. If you pound it direct then you dont have to do that.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Jake good point!! Thanks. I just unloaded at on ton of water from our above ground pool that the regular drain didn't get. I threw it all on the area where the new expansion is going to be. It's pretty wet right now so I'm hoping it will easy to pound the pipe as you suggest. The only other issue I forsee are the roots from the three redwood trees....hopefully they won't be too much in the way.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Jake good point!! Thanks. I just unloaded at on ton of water from our above ground pool that the regular drain didn't get. I threw it all on the area where the new expansion is going to be. It's pretty wet right now so I'm hoping it will easy to pound the pipe as you suggest. The only other issue I forsee are the roots from the three redwood trees....hopefully they won't be too much in the way.


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

For my Green Bay, WI elevated curved ladder of 340 ft..... I placed 180 1.5" ID PVC pipe painted Olive Drab by brush in a spinable PVC tube fixture..... (pipe OD 1.875")...... 
10 ft Home Depot pipe was cut to a 40" length.... The 18" in the ground was left white so I knew my pound depth. 

To make the job "easy" & save on Neighborhood noise.... I bought a Orange dead blow hammer from Harbor freight..... 

Also I bought a 1.25" Diameter "Cordless" auger 14" in length at the Stein Garden Shop... They have 5 sizes of drill dirt augers. 

By augering undersized 1st, I found rocks, roots, & used 60% less hammer blows. I did move about 5% of my holes due to "debris".... 

In doing the curved ladder with Atlas O Software.... I used O-99 Dia Curves to emulate 12.5 ft Diameter G Curves... Scale factor is 1.5.... 

Since my curved ladder pipe coordinates mite be a 1/2" off based on my auger drill .... A 12.5 ftDia Curve might be 11 ft Dia or 13 ft Dia........ 

I placed my pipes about 24" apart.... Nice for a 18" Elec Lawn mower.... Not good enough for a gas 22" wide mower !! 

Today, after 2.5 years work.... on & off... I finally ran Aristo dual E-8s & 2 egg liners on the 215 ft "hilly" folded dogbone.... 

Had 3 split jaw clamps I had to redo because of ruff end cuts on 8 ft SS332 bent rails.... Been using both the Aristo & Train LI dual benders.... for days..... 

Click on my Polaris1 photo on Left to take a peek at my Green Bay two photos of the G layout..... Named: ZIPPIN PIPPIN DAHLIA GARDEN to conceal the RR.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Click on my Polaris1 photo on Left to take a peek at my Green Bay two photos of the G layout..... Named: ZIPPIN PIPPIN DAHLIA GARDEN to conceal the RR. 

Your pictures look great...can I ask what you type of screw you used to attach the ladder system...want to make sure I get the correct stuff of dirt/moisture, etc. 

Richard


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Polaris1 on 29 Jun 2011 08:22 PM 
For my Green Bay, WI elevated curved ladder of 340 ft..... I placed 180 1.5" ID PVC pipe painted Olive Drab by brush in a spinable PVC tube fixture..... (pipe OD 1.875")...... 
10 ft Home Depot pipe was cut to a 40" length.... The 18" in the ground was left white so I knew my pound depth. 

To make the job "easy" & save on Neighborhood noise.... I bought a Orange dead blow hammer from Harbor freight..... 

Also I bought a 1.25" Diameter "Cordless" auger 14" in length at the Stein Garden Shop... They have 5 sizes of drill dirt augers. 

By augering undersized 1st, I found rocks, roots, & used 60% less hammer blows. I did move about 5% of my holes due to "debris".... 

In doing the curved ladder with Atlas O Software.... I used O-99 Dia Curves to emulate 12.5 ft Diameter G Curves... Scale factor is 1.5.... 

Since my curved ladder pipe coordinates mite be a 1/2" off based on my auger drill .... A 12.5 ftDia Curve might be 11 ft Dia or 13 ft Dia........ 

I placed my pipes about 24" apart.... Nice for a 18" Elec Lawn mower.... Not good enough for a gas 22" wide mower !! 

Today, after 2.5 years work.... on & off... I finally ran Aristo dual E-8s & 2 egg liners on the 215 ft "hilly" folded dogbone.... 

Had 3 split jaw clamps I had to redo because of ruff end cuts on 8 ft SS332 bent rails.... Been using both the Aristo & Train LI dual benders.... for days..... 

Click on my Polaris1 photo on Left to take a peek at my Green Bay two photos of the G layout..... Named: ZIPPIN PIPPIN DAHLIA GARDEN to conceal the RR. 


Lookin' at your backyard, all I can think of is Los Angeles freeways! WOW! Lots of work, but nice!


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Richard....... 
My ladder screws were Stainless self tappers either 2 " or 2.5" lengths from Ebay.... Material used for both Ladder & spacer blocks was chocolate BearBoard from Elgin, IL. 
The 8 ft BearBoard 2x4s were ripped 3 times at 3/4" thickness for 4 flex rails. 24 8 ft planks cost me $590 incl $100 shipping 3 years ago...... 

I do worry a lot about the SS screws since the spacer blocks have two 5/8" wire holes on the low side to conceal the 25 feeds(900 ft of 12 GA) I use for MTH DSC block wiring... 
Each of 10 blocks is about 32 ft long. Blocks are also used to depower areas for parking trains via 10 banana plugs.... Layout has both a 215 ft folded dogbone 
OR two 95 ft fully isolated dogbones via switches which allows your choice of Power. I was JVC video tape practicing to spot track irregularities via Digital angles on Flat Car. 
Camera results poor, but I run slow helps... 2/3 of Layout is operational.... All other Track has been ruff bent & eight R7 switches need installation. 92 Deg tomorrow !!


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By rsmproductions on 30 Jun 2011 01:40 PM 
Click on my Polaris1 photo on Left to take a peek at my Green Bay two photos of the G layout..... Named: ZIPPIN PIPPIN DAHLIA GARDEN to conceal the RR. 

Your pictures look great...can I ask what you type of screw you used to attach the ladder system...want to make sure I get the correct stuff of dirt/moisture, etc. 

Richard 

Do you mean the screws to attach the ladder together? I used a triple-coated outdoor deck screw.


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jake & Richard....... 

The ladder sides & spacer blocks were assembled using Stainless steel 2" or 2.5" long deck screws.... Triple coated deck screws will work too. The dual Square head drive tis better than Phillips for a positive less strip drive. One side of the ladder was pre assembled in a 9 ft long wood fixture like both Paul Race (Ohio) or Mike Reiley (CA) shows in his layout site. I also used the same SS deck screws as adjustable "set" screws on the PVC pipe to lock in the ladder grade. One last item for WISCONSIN cold is to fill the PVC pipes with DOW foam to prevent water/ice in pipes during Winter. I have actually replaced 3 PVC support pipes that "got shorter/sank" by more that 1.75" by Spring with longer 40" pipes. Just back out 2 SS screws, twist the PVC while pulling or jacking up.... Then pound, cut top of post flush, DOW foam, & belt sand & set screw.....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

When I pound stakes in the ground I cut the end off at a angle to form a point. You can try this will what ever pipe your are using. Use cheap plactic mider box you can get at HD or Lowes. 
It might help with the roots if they are not too big. 

JJ


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Just back from the area HD with truck roof load of 3/4" sched 40 PVC pipe, Verdana 5/8" x 1-1/2" x 12" Vinyl Board as well as a few 1-1/2" x 1-1/2"x12' Vinyl board for the spacers. I picked up 2" coated deck screws as well. I think I'll cut the PVC pipe to a total of 30" and then try for a depth of 18". That leaves 12" exposed that can be trimmed to fit the grade I'm planning to work with. I really wrestled with buying the 1" PVC pipe but for $1.00 more per 10' I thought what I got would be ok. 

I would like things to cool back down though like they were earlier in the week. Record low of 75 on Tuesday here...now it's heading back to above 100...

I'll take pictures as I progress with the expansion...will also start a new thread too.

I appreciate all of the helpful suggestions and points to think about.

Richard


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I stole this from "Trains"...I like Alabama too... 
I'm in a hurry to get things done, Oh I rush and rush until life's no fun, All I really gotta do is live and die. I'm in a hurry and don't know why! 

I've made the decision to take the 3/4" PVC pipe back to HD and swap it for the 1-1/2". I want to make sure I don't short change stability and want to do it right. 

I also ordered a Train-li dual rail bender based on the reviews here...it should be here by next week.

I'll post pictures of the progress as I begin to the expansion. 

Richard


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

You'll love it








Ron


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