# Battery vs. transformer?



## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

It seems some like a transformer, some batteries. I bring this up as a new thread for benefit of us newbies, mainly not to garble another thread when someone does a search. As a long time large scale RC airplane (and 'N' scaler) guy, I'm pretty familiar with remote control, nicads and lipo's (lithium). I see advantages in both-except for the pretty long recharge times. Would someone please outline/describe..and/or pics of how to run remote control w/battery power. I'm trying to understand here voltages, controllers, servos etc. Is there a preponderance of one system over the other for, specifically, outdoor use? Thanks guys, you folks are a helpful lot!


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

Cap'n Bill you have just opened the biggest can of worms in Large Scale Modeling. In a nutshell: 

The bigest advantage to using battery power with remote controll is that you can operate your trains just like the real ones. You only use the rails to guide the train. You carry all your controls and power with each engine just as you do with model airplanes. You seem to be familiar with the biggest problem of battery power which is keeping them charged. You will have to invest in receivers, controllers and batteries for each engine. There are several multi channel transmitters that permit you to operate multiple trains with only one transmitter. 

If you go to track power with a transformer then you are faced with potential problems of loss of power due to dirty track. Track cleaning and matienance can be required daily before you can run trains. There is complicated track wiring required for reversing the rail power feeds when using reversing loops. stopping trains on sidings, keeping electrical flow through switches, etc. Since you are familiar with track powered N gauge trains you should be aware of what needs to be done. Just remember your track is outside and it makes it necessary to keep the controls dry and free of corrosion. There are controll systems such as DCC that will permit the operation of multiple trains on the same track but these require special receivers in each engine as well as a transmitter. 

I am in the battery/RC group. I use the least expensive aluminum track and do not have to worry about special connectors or soldering across rail joints and switch points to keep power flowing through the rails. I like the fact I can do whatever I want with my engine by walking around with my train carrying a small transmitter. When I have friends over they each operate their own engine just like the real world engineers with no worries about track polarity. 

I am sure there will be a lot of others voicing their opinions. If I had to guess I would say that the trend is moving toward battery/RC and away from track power for Large Scale trains that are operated out side. Good luck and think about it alot before you take the plunge. Either way you go it gets expensive and you don't want to have to change over from one system to another. Of course if you go with track power you can always operate a battery/RC or live steam engine on your layout in the future. 

Big John


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

I prefer batteries. Lead Acid gel type. These are cheap simple robust and best of all *HEAVY*. I normally run my locos off two 6 Volt SLA using a simple DPDT switch and a power relay.

I put down the basics here : http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/kitchen3.html

There is a lot of personal choice on Radio remote control -for instance I built my own... However "the Australian system" has by far the best back up and tech support system. Noways I simply use a fwd/off/back switch and that does for me.


regards

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can't keep retyping....

My advice to newbies is to read a lot, not come out and ask the fundamental questions that many people have so eloquently answered before. There are so many basic items, I think it's much better to read those sites first.


Now, my site is not as eloquent as others, but here's my take:* http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/beginners-faqs-mainmenu-49/choose-your-power-mainmenu-52*


Regards, Greg


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks, Gents, for the thoughts, ideas, and recommendations! I'll take heed. I am, however, glad I posed the question before running out to buy anything. Almost seems this is the most basic question to be answered by anyone getting into this area of model railroading. I will indeed, devote much time and thought to your ideas. Bill


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap'nBill. 
There are basically two types of R/C used with large Scale trains. 
1. Proprietary brands such as TE, AirWire, Locolinc and RCS. These look nothing like regular stick type R/C and do not work the same way. They do have the advantage of the TX's being quite small. 
2. Stick type R/C such as made by Futaba, Hi-Tec etc. The ESC's made for these are different to model plane R/C in that they are momentum systems rather than Digital Proportional and can handle much higher voltages. 

Which is best for you depends on what you actually need. 
By far the lowest cost way is with regular 2 x stick R/C. You can of course also use multi channel R/C including the new 2.4 GHz equipment made by Spektrum. 

I would suggest you ask specific questions on the Battery R/C forum below.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

..LOL


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## altterrain (Jan 2, 2008)

Both?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well at least you all agree on something. Later RJD


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Battery power doesn't always mean radio control either. You can very easily control your trains with semi-automated controls. All the advantages of battery power with none of the frustrations of radio control.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 01/04/2009 6:32 PM
Well at least you all agree on something. Later RJD






It wont last long HE HE HE..
Nick


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Cap'nBill. 

If you are desperate to have something up and running as easily as possible then hooking up to track power is definitely the quickest way. 
However, in the long run, it may prove the most expensive way of getting started. 

One of the big advantages of battery power is you do not need expensive brass or stainless steel track. 
You can use low cost aluminium instead. 
Also you will not need to bond every rail joint to maintain power flow and you will never need to actually clean the rail surface. Grotty track actually aids traction. 

Do the numbers on the cost of track and after market rail joiners to keep them electrically joined and I bet you will possibly save enough money to get started in battery power. 
Del is correct. 
There are a number of battery systems made for simple automatic control that can be added too later, if you want R/C as well. 

Once again do your homework before spending any money.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

My two cents. 

I am leaning to track power and as mentioned ver conversations on this site the key issue and expense is the time taken and design criteria to set up the track system. Full development allows for constant power (DCC) which in turn allows for easy tapping of the system for auxilliary needs (Lighting etc... ) 

Am I wrong here? 

Focus on the heart of the system. The track design and set up. When properly done, track cleaning is is lot easier and more enjoyable than battery recharging and swapouts etc. 

Best Regards and I really appreciate the bantering.  

gg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

You made a good choice you'll be up and running in no time and you can run all day and night without stooping your trains. use rail clamps is a good ideal for keeping the track together factory joiners usually not that good. i use the clamps not so much for contuity, although it a plus. i run very heavy locos and long trains so i went with ss over because of it strengths and nothing else i will belaying my track on the ground and i wanted the strongest track possalble so when someone or dog steps on it it will stand a far better chance of not being damage as the softer track can do...... also track cleaning no big deal all forms of power have to clean twiggs and dirt and pebbles and so on off there track before they can run so if you run brass you clean the tops of the rails same time while doing that... as i run SS no need for track cleaning.. there are lots of options out there but i think you made a good choice you can always add different things down the road, and if you run a lot of engines like i do i can just drop them on the track and away they go... no desporation in that!!!!! just good ,quick clean fun.. by the way have fun with your trains...
Nick


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Cap'nBill,

It was a good idea you posted a question and definitely agree you should try and do some reading on information that is provided here and on available user websites. 

I use Stainless steel rail with all stainless steel clamps and run without worry or having to clean my track. My track connections stay solid and 100% reliable even after 2 years outside. I'm grateful SS was available when I got started and don't regret my decision. 

On cost, it can depend on what you are trying to run. To provide myself as an example, I may run my 5 Aristocraft Dash-9s all day on a weekend say maybe even 10 hours. 

To run each Dash-9 1 hour would require 1 Aristocraft Lithium Ion battery pack (~$70) (Note: that there are supposed to be cheaper batteries out there but this is what I have known run time examples for)

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Battery_Run_Time.jpg - example run time from one user

So for me to run all 5 engines 10 hours would require 50 Aristocraft battery packs at ~$70 each plus ~$26 each for each charger. Based on these numbers that alone would cost $4800 in batteries and chargers alone. 

As far as cost of track, I've calculated the following: (and I encourage you to do some checking yourself, you may find better prices on some of these items)

Track: (based on 7/11/08 prices)

Aluminum: (~$3.02/ft - http://www.svrronline.com/trackandrail.html ) 
Brass: (~$4.52/ft - Aristocraft track without feeder wires, with brass split jaws. Feeder wires add ~$0.40/ft)
Stainless Steel: (~$6.59/ft - Aristocraft track with feeder wires, with Stainless split jaw clamps)

(Notes: Railclamps priced at www.Trainworld.com for best price, and Aristo track at www.ridgeroadstation.com with Aristocraft buy 4 get 1 free sale. Railclamps added on avg ~$0.79/ft for SS and ~$0.57/ft for brass when you add them all up.)

If I was to have a layout of say:

200ft - it would cost:

Aluminum: $604
Brass: $904
Stainless Steel: $1318

500ft:

Aluminum: $1510
Brass: $2260
Stainless Steel: $3295




700ft:

Aluminum: $2114
Brass: $3164
Stainless Steel: $4613


If you run track power and get a top of the line Bridgewerks transformer they will run you about: [$148(3 amp), $244(5 amp), $281(10amp), $310(15amp), $384(20amp) $517(25amp)] (www.ridgeroadstation.com - 7/11/08)


So even with a 700ft layout:

- with Stainless steel rail, SS clamps + feeder wires with a big 25amp Powersupply you are at ~$5130 for everything.
- with aluminum rail and batteries you are at ~$6914 for everything. 


This is an extreme example but it is a real one because I do this. Not everyone does, most run one train at a time and run much fewer engines. But it does highlight the point that there is a diminishing return on initial cost of entry in savings with battery power the more engines you add and the longer you want to run. So just keep that in mind.

Understand too that in about 3 years (maybe a little longer) you will have to replace the batteries: http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Battery-life_2.jpg 

So hopefully this helps provide a framework on maybe how to approach your decision from purely a cost perspective. There will be other intangibles that may and will likely override cost, but you have to decide that. Even if it costs 10x more to go one way or the other, if that's what you want to do then DO IT! As far as my figures please DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and homework and check and compare with current numbers. There maybe other brands and types of batteries and track that will affect these numbers, but you get the point.

Good luck with your decision and I hope this helps some. There are a lot of variables and things to consider.

(FYI, a great guy by the name of Bubba (Username: "madstang" here on MLS runs battery power and told me he has info on cheaper batteries than the ones above.))


Raymond


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

in my opinion the basic question to answer, before deciding between track power or batteries... 

...are you lazy? or better, when do you want to be lazy? 

if you want to sit and look at your trains, while they chugg along, put in the effort to make a good automatized track powered system. 

but if you want to be in command, if you want to shunt a lot and send trains where you want anytime, go RC and battery.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Raymond. 

You should know that good quality NiCd batteries will last a lot longer than 3 years. 
Dave Goodson has some packs that are used at least weekly and are 12 - 15 years old. 

Looked after they last a very long time. At least 1,000 recharge cycles
So, if you did run each train daily with NiCd's you will equal 3+ years.
Do you run every train daily?

I note you need 50 battery packs to run 5 big trains for 10 hours plus. That seems to be a bit excessive.
I don't see anywhere in your writings that says you do any switching. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems you have made up trains that are switched on, brought up to speed and let run.
Nothing wrong with that of course.
The trains you run could always carry high capacity batteries in the trail cars that would enable a non stop run for at least 5 hours. Then another high capacity pack, also in the train, could be switched in for another 5 hours running.
Simply charge them up overnight when you are not running. Just like the mere mortals without such a huge layout do all the time.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/04/2009 11:29 PM
Raymond. 

You can bad mouth batteries all you like but you should know that good quality NiCd batteries will last a lot longer than 3 years. 
Dave Goodson has some packs that are used weekly and are 12 - 15 years old. 

Looked after they last a very long time.


Tony, let's please keep this from getting emotional. 

I wouldn't have spent so much time coming up with all this information and references if I was just trying to subjectively convince him or anyone else of anything. 

On battery life, I have never in my life seen any battery Nicd or any other type of battery that lasted more than 3 years or so. Never. But you say it is so that's fine. It still does not change the economics and the pattern of what you run and run times. At some point batteries do end up costing more than track power depending on the situation and variables.

Cap'nBill: This is why so many are afraid to even attempt to discuss this and why I've tried so hard to put this out in black and white as much as I can. Anyways, take any and all information you collect, think for yourself and use it all to help make your decision. 

Good luck.


Raymond


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like I replied to your original post before you could fine tune it.


Raymond


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Raymond. 

I "fine tuned" my posting long before you posted a reply so there is no real reason to include what you did include. 

Each user needs to satisfy their own needs. 
For many it is battery R/C that proves to be the most cost effective. 

NiCd batteries last for 1,000 recycles of charge discharge providing they are treated the way manufacturers say they should be treated. 
You can divide that up anyway you wish. 
Once a week = 20 years or so. 
Twice a weeks = 10 years or so. 
Once a day = 3 + years.


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Good grief. I hit reply right after I recieved the notification email.


Raymond


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Bill, personally, I am going with track power for a few different reasons. First of all, let's say you buy a new engine. The first thing you want to do is go home and play, unless it comes via mail, then you'll simply go outside and play. You use track power, you are already set to run your new engine, period. You have an unlit layout (one designed for battery power) then you have to convert your new engine for battery power unless it already came that way. Say you don't have the expertise, patience, or time to convert your new engine... then you have to have it sent off to Trainsamericastudios.com or some other place costing alot of money and taking over a week's time. Finally you get your new engine back... unless you have an extra battery lying around (unless it is your first engine you probably would) you have to wait for your new engine's battery to charge. Not to mention changing batteries out or plugging your engine into a wall socket by means of an ugly battery extension that is hopefully underneath the engine. Meanwhile with track power you would play as long as you wish uninterrupted unless the power goes out. Now battery powered locomotives have the advantage here, especially if all of your layout's lighting and signals are battery powered as well. In this case all the neighbors are outside screaming THE END IS NEAR while you are happily following your engine around with it's R/C enjoying a fully lit layout, that is, until recharge time comes along. Then you get to plug all of your engines, signals, and houses into a wall socket, OH WAIT!!! THE POWER IS OUT!!!








(My point here is that you will probably still be using electricity for various reasons, not just charging batteries.)


Secondly, let's say you make a nifty friend on MLS named Will who also happens to live in TN and models Pennsy. Let's say Will has plenty of locomotives but they have not been converted to battery power and you invite him to an open house at your layout. Will is excited to go see your setup, but is a bit sad that he can't play show-and-tell with his sexy new Big Boy he just ordered from USA Trains because he wasn't about to play rip-open-this-huge-steam-engine-and-install-batteries-after-spending-$3,500-for-it. This creates another problem because of visitor flexibility. Now let's say your layout is powered. Friends come over with battery powered engines and they can still run on your layout, as well as live steamers, and WALA!! everyone is happy. Given that some of these friends have layouts that support track power that recharges on the fly, you will be able to run your stuff on their layouts too. 


There are those who would tell you that "unlike track powered layouts, I never have to clean my track". These people don't seem to know about Stainless Steel track apparently, and if they do, they'll argue that Stainless Steel doesn't weather like real track. Well... neither does Brass, Aluminum, Nickel-Silver, Plastic, or whatever else they are running on that is not Steel rail and wooden ties. If you want realistic then you should probably get Steel rails, spikes, and tie plates and let them weather naturally to a rust color, otherwise there is always model paints.







Also, consider making from scratch a diesel powered locomotive, with 16 cylinders and a turbocharger that somehow you are still able to control. It can only get so realistic lol.








But battery powered locomotives can run in the rain!!!!







...If you are not living in Seattle and you are running trains in the rain, all I can advise is get inside, get naked, get in bed with your loved one, and put the trains down. 

I'm not going to comment on the price comparison because there are too many sources that adjust prices on a regular basis and because frankly, I don't know. With price it all depends on what you want. I got a Bridgewerks Magnum 25 TDR because it has all the power I will ever need and they have an extremely good reputation. I can attest to how well it is made and would recommend it. As far as performance, I cannot comment on that either, again, I don't know. I'm not sure if battery powered engines handle grades or speed well so let the battery power guys handle that one. 


All humor aside though, the main reason I decided to go with track power is because of my own personal goals with my layout. I aim to make my layout as user-friendly as possible. As such, I am eliminating all clearance related issues, curve sharpness issues, and running need issues right off the bat. This way, the layout will be easily accessible for all who have an interest in G-scale whether they are 1:20.3 , 1:29 , 1:32 , 7/8ths , battery powered, track powered, live steam, or live diesel. I'd like my layout to be as enjoyable to myself and my G-scale friends as possible. In my case, battery power just isn't feasible but if you are going to be the only one running on your layout, make it to your specifications and satisfaction. All of my comments above were relative to my own situation. I have nothing at all against battery power and have heard great things about it, also some not so great things. The best way to make your decision is like Rayman4449 has always told me... You have to study up on it and get feedback from people who have done it, don't just follow in one person's footsteps blindly. This has been good advice from him ^^ 


Lastly, I hope whichever method you go with, it makes you happy because that is what trains are all about... happiness!







Good luck Bill and I hope your layout comes along nicely ^^

-Will


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Raymonds cost figures are for only his method of running large scale model trains. 

I have no quarrel with his costing of track. 

Say for example the large Scaler wanted 700' but only required one or two locos and he didn't intend to run them all the time. 

Then the figures would work out something like this: 


700ft: 

Aluminum: $2114 
Brass: $3164 
Stainless Steel: $4613 

That leaves a price differential between Aluminium and brass of $1050. 
$1050 would be enough for three battery R/C powered trail cars complete with chargers. 
There would also be the added advantage of having the ability to run all three battery R/C trail cars independently on the same track at the same time with three operators.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By kormsen on 01/04/2009 11:05 PM
in my opinion the basic question to answer, before deciding between track power or batteries... 

...are you lazy? or better, when do you want to be lazy? 

if you want to sit and look at your trains, while they chugg along, put in the effort to make a good automatized track powered system. 

but if you want to be in command, if you want to shunt a lot and send trains where you want anytime, go RC and battery.


Sir, i really dont know were you get your info from but under dcs or dcc witch are forms of dc and can be run either way with the same engines with no additional equipment to buy,i do and can run main line freights and passenger trains while at the same time run switching opps all from the controller on the same track at the same time, with one power pack, so what you have just said has no truth to it at all, you might want to get your fact totally correct before you post so that people get the rite info...and sometimes that incorrect info is made up to sell a certain type of power and control.. so just so im getting you correct your saying im lazy for watching my trains run under track power but not so under battery!!!!!!! that is one of the stupidest things i have ever heard. i usually stay out of the battery track power wars but certain people just come out and lie about things to make one system sound better than another just to sell there beleifs well, im IN........


> but if you want to be in command, if you want to shunt a lot and send trains where you want anytime, go RC and battery..... this sir is not only wrong it a lie...... and a very STUPID statement
> Nick


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm always puzzled by the difference between what's claimed about battery power for trains and what I see from my experience with rechargeable battery power, which is mostly cordless drills but also laptop batteries. I love my cordless drills but the battery packs don't last. They gradually lose their capacity to hold a charge. Same with laptop batteries--they don't last very long. Why would it be any different with trains? I also think people tend to overstate the run times they get with batteries, again because I know how long a charge lasts in my drills. Maybe there is something different about batteries in trains?


I know there's some difference in battery life depending on how you manage the batteries, but I don't WANT to manage the batteries. I want to turn the thing on and have it run. Now I suppose since I use the cordless drills all the time, and live with the vagaries of the battery packs, I could do the same with trains. But then I'd have to get multiple redundant battery packs for each train, and that's more to keep track of and more expense, and we live in a small house and space is at a premium....


It really depends on personal choice. I don't think you can accurately say which is cheaper, because it depends on how you run the trains, and on how you value your time, and at how quick you are at installation. Track power with remote control has been great for me.


Also people talk about track cleaning as if it's some hideous chore akin to breaking rocks on a chain gang. It's not a big deal. I have mostly brass track (I'm gradually switching over to stainless) and it's fine. I just run an aristo track cleanng car around. You do need to use railclamps or solder jumpers, but you can add those over time. Sections of my layout lasted with just LGB slip on joiners and some LGB paste for well over a year and still worked fine. You don't have to have stainless track.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/05/2009 2:45 AM
Raymonds cost figures are for only his method of running large scale model trains. 

I have no quarrel with his costing of track. 

Say for example the large Scaler wanted 700' but only required one or two locos and he didn't intend to run them all the time. 

Then the figures would work out something like this: 


700ft: 

Aluminum: $2114 
Brass: $3164 
Stainless Steel: $4613 

That leaves a price differential between Aluminium and brass of $1050. 
$1050 would be enough for three battery R/C powered trail cars complete with chargers. 
There would also be the added advantage of having the ability to run all three battery R/C trail cars independently on the same track at the same time with three operators. 








or just one engine with on board control and good batterys installed
with charger.for those batterys that from what ive seen depending on the loco the are installed permently cause it is dificult to remove the bodies to replace them with fresh ones......also most people i have seen on this forum still run aleast brass track WITH there battery trains cause it is much stronger and forgiving then alum track when laid on the ground and could be stepped on by a animal or people... so the cost differance is quit mimimal. and Ray you dont have to be sorry for having a large layout, as some people are just jealous of what you have, thats ok but 400 to 500 ft of track is becoming the norm and not the exception... when certain people live in the past and cant seem to want to come to the future that why thy get defencive..it doesnt mean there bad people they just have a different way of doing things... but its all good trains are train no matter how they are controlled the point is to have fun with them and not be bitter when you THINK controls are being out dated AND PASSED BY...and Ray in my feild of work i use power tools all the time with differnt batterys types usually everyday and most dont last a year but a few do...
Nick


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I may have missed this but Did anyone mentionsd BATTERY CAR? 

I use a batery car. Been doing it for years. Started off with one remote and one reciever. I use Cordless drill batteries. I get about 3 to 4 hrs play time takes about a hour to charge. I have about 5 batteries.

Over the years I have enlarged my collection of Remotes. I have one Air Wire with three recievers. I have two Aristo Train Engineer Trackside x mitters and three recievers(mounted in box car) Range is a problem but I like the features. (push buton as compaired to knob)

Then I have one older ARisto Trackside that only runs two trains.

Of the ones I have Air Wire has the best range.

I guess later I may try a RCS. I got to try everthing once. 

Wade through all this info and make your own choise


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ. 
I did mention battery cars. More than once. 

Mike. 
I can guarantee that my comments about batteries are correct. I have been doing this for over 20 years. 
The only proviso I make is that my figures are based on Sanyo SubC NiCd's. That means made in Japan. Others do not last as long. Especially the Chinese made batteries used in drills etc. 
Rapid charging them will reduce the number of re-charge cycles. 
Trickle charging them at the standard 10% rate will make them last as per the manufacturers specifications. 

If someone wants to extend run times WITHOUT removing the batteries from a loco there is a very simple circuit available that uses the charge jack to plug in an extra set of batteries for when the on board batteries discharge. 

I will stand by, and reiterate, my comments about track cost as I outlined above. 
It has been my experience over the years that most LS'ers are quite happy with a few locos. 
Not everyone wants or can afford big layouts with lots of high power consuming locos. 

I can also guarantee you that once a Large Scale operator takes the plunge into battery R/C they very rarely ever go back to track power of any sort.


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## ArticulatedAl (Mar 16, 2008)

Could it be that power circulates backwards below the equator?


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I think there are things more important than cost. Not that money isn't an issue or something... certainly we'd all like to spend as little as possible of it and have as much fun as we can. But ... there's more to this than the cost. 

For example... I have a number of 1:20.3 scale steam locomotives. For the price of most of them, I could have probably double the number of 1:29 locomotives (largely because I bought my Shays before I knew there was anyplace you didn't have to pay Walther's $450.00 for them...) But, I didn't buy the least expensive engines out there, because I wanted something specific ... Narrow gauge, and really large models. The Aristo Dash 9 is neither of those things, though, for what it is, it's certainly very nice. 

When it comes to power, I'm in kind of a unique position. I've been a dyed in the wool Track Power guy for ... well, forever. I built my first railroad with LGB Brass Track, and even when Don Sweet came over for the now famous Pizza and Train parties, I stuck to it. On the old railroad, I liked to turn the train on and let it run, run, run while I did other things.... enjoying it passing through the living room, and out again via the tunnel to the kitchen. Sure, I *could* have done it with a battery car... but it worked just fine off the power supply I already had, and being indoors, the skate equipped diesels kept the rail relatively shiny. 

So, when I built my new railroad, I bought Nickel Silver track (it looked better, and the oxide conducts; imagine!) and started laying out block controls .... and the more I planned, the more it seemed like I wanted independant control of my engines. So, I got my first Battery / RC locomotive. And, for me ... a light bulb came on. I love the way they work ... and for the most part the charge cycle isn't a problem, though, now that I'm accumulating a few of these, I'm going to need a better charging solution than the overnight one at a time charger I've got ... and I'm already working on that. But... the prospect of running several trains independantly really appeals to me, and works for the plan that I have for the railroad at large ... so that's the direction I'm heading. Will I always have a track powered engine or two that I can set up with a train while I'm running the grill? You bet. But ... the rest of them will probably be converted (or start out as) RCS engines. It works for me. 

Now... I can already smell the burning pitch in the DCC camp. Many people, knowledgable ones, have told me that being indoors, and already having NS track, that I'm *crazy* not to go with DCC. And ... there are a lot of things I just said that could just as easily be accomplished with DCC. The trains are independantly controlled, I don't have weather or animal problems, and hey, plopping a decoder into an engine (ok, so there are no REAL "plop and play" engines out there) is a lot cheaper and ostensibly easier than a battery conversion. So there's be a lot of good reasons to do DCC on my railroad, and I really did seriously consider it, made some inquiries, and talked (privately) to a bunch of people who know what they're talking about. 

In the end, I chose to head for a primarily battery/RC railroad, with some track power options. Emotions and pitchforks aside, for ME (and not necessarily for everyone) I'd rather put my wiring talent to work on a locomotive than the layout. My choice. I'd rather spend my programming energy on some of the support stuff (animated scenery, etc.) than I would the trains. And I have developed a rapport with the folks at RCS that makes overcoming any problems I may encounter easy, so long as they're here (and as even the DCC guys will tell you, there's no signs they're going away anytime soon!) 

To the fellows like Ray and Greg who enjoy DCC, my hat is off. And, I hope they have the same respect for what I can accomplish with Radio/Battery and traditional track power. For the new folks, please talk to people from both schools and, like I did, make an informed and intelligent decision about what works best for you. And, don't be put off by the passion that some of these folks pour into their particular areas of expertise ... like any other great art, this takes a great deal of creative energy, and you put a lot of yourself into what you do. All of these guys... Dave, Tony, Don, Greg, Raymond, George, and others like Del, and even the live steam guys all have a lot of really great experience and ideas, and every one of them has something to offer. 

Of late, there have been some particularly bad situations and hard feelings, and it would be hard to call many folks unjustified in being .... well, loaded for bear on some issues. That said, this is generally a lot nicer place to be when you can ask anyone a question and not worry about whose "camp" you're in, particuarly if you're not one of the select few who really are being less than up front with, and muddying the water for the rest of us. 

So ... Happy New Year to the MLS community ... all of you. Without what I learned from all of you, my model railroading would not be what it is. 

Matthew (OV)


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm re-reading what I just wrote...

I probably ought to add a couple of things that apply.

1.) I know I can accomplish the aforementioned "grill train" with a trail car and battery rig as well ... but since I have track power and a couple of engines that use it, that's often what I choose.
2.) I also know I didn't mention the cost of the power system when talking about dropping a decoder into a locomotive ... which tends to balance the cost of the system if you don't have a lot of engines in service.
3.) There are enough technical problems on both sides of the coin that a prospective user can pretty much pick their own poison.... the point is to pick problems that you feel most comofortable solving. Bob Grosh can take a misbehaving DCC locmotive down to engineering, hook up the opto-spectrometer, charge up a dilitheum crystal or two, and in a puff of smoke from his soldering iron, achieve resurrection. I've also seen Dave Goodson take a locomotive that was actually on fire, and restore it to perfect operation, and solve problems with engines that had the manufacturer of the equipment scratching their heads (and lower) about. I'm using what I'm using because I'm most comfortable fixing the kinds of problems that come up with that kind of equipment.... so when there IS a problem, I'm not out of my depth trying to deal with it. Again, your mileage will vary.

I guess my larger point was, different strokes for different folks.... My system might actually cost me a little more than it would have if I'd gone a different route, but I really like what I've got, it works for me, and I'm happy with my choice. While I'll broadcast that to anyone who cares to hear it, I will not do so at the expense of a friendship with someone who uses something else. I expect the same tolerance in return.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't keep retyping.... 




We just want to keep your fingers in shape! 

It's not actually and either-or thing. A battery loco for switching is a great accessory for a track power layout.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

I started with battery, my first loco sat on the bench until I converted it, didn't really matter I had no track down...Cleaning track, yeah, I do it nearly every time I run...usually to remove the limbs and leaves-built my layout in a mess of trees-doooh...I decided before I did anything to go battery, I also decided RCS would be *My* best choice...so read all of this...then read the entire Batt/RC Forum...Read other Forums (the free ones) ask TONS of questions and then make Your choice!---I did, and I've been really Happy! 

cale


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

One can always count on this subject to bring out the emotions in some folks.

As a moderator I want to add a comment here ... the subject is well worth discussing and there are plenty of pros and cons to be put on the table. Many people think that certain iseas are stupid and it is ok to say so though it does help of course to present some proof or counterposition. But just because someone says an idea is "stupid", that does not confer a right on anyone to say that the person with the idea is stupid. Let's be courteous and tolerant here.

Regards ... Doug


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

For what it is worth, in my opinion most people can be happy with whatever system most appeals to them. I know battery powered layouts that the owners are very happy with and I know track powered layouts (including MTS, DCC and DCS) where those owners are also very happy.

Perhaps what is most important is the attitude of the prospective builder of the layout and how he/she feels about battery powered products vs wired electrical powered products. Personally I admit that I use all sorts of batteries but I hate batteries in general because whether it is a car battery, boat battery, a clock battery, a camera battery,a camera flash battery, a flashlight battery, a laptop battery, a telephone (cell or caller ID) battery, a remote control (TV, CD, DVD, VCR, model train etc.) battery, a sound system battery, a clock backup battery, a winch battery, an RV battery, a GPS battery, a burglar alarm battery, a surveillance camera battery, a motion detector battery, a drill battery, a saw battery, or a model train battery pack I can think of at least one of each and every one of the above that I have that I KNOW is dead and needs to be either recharged or replaced. I readily agree that I could not do what all these batteries do without batteries but while I appreciate what they do for me they also motivate me to avoid every battery for every option where I can accomplish the same thing without batteries. One nice thing about non-battery powered products is that they do not have dead batteries corroding their connections. 

For me the question is not how long they last if they are frequently used but rather the problems that result when they are NOT frequently used. I have a few cheap (toy) battery powered trains and every one of them has dead batteries because I have not run them for at least 6 months. I also have some track powered trains that have not been run in 6 months - the difference is that the track powered trains will come to life immediately if I switch the power on to the siding they are parked on. I also like multiple unit locomotives with sound systems which amounts to 8 motors, 4 sound systems, 4 smoke units, 4 fans and at least 40 passenger car lights that would take a LOT of battery power to run. Better yet, if I feel like it I can run another similar train on the other mainline and not have to charge any batteries before, during or after I run the trains.

I also believe my trains will end up with a lower net ownership cost if I want or need to sell them than if I had gone to the expense and trouble of installing battery powered systems in them. 

I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I am perfectly happy with whatever anyone else does with their layout. I don't think there is a right or wrong power system available - just different choices that suit different people.

We recently started the Arkansas Powered Rails Garden Railway Club mainly for fellow hobbyists who run their layouts on the various forms of track power.

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/12/postid/66535/view/topic/Default.aspx
Our focus will be primarily on the various forms of track power which can include:


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 01/05/2009 7:20 AM
One can always count on this subject to bring out the emotions in some folks.

As a moderator I want to add a comment here ... the subject is well worth discussing and there are plenty of pros and cons to be put on the table. Many people think that certain iseas are stupid and it is ok to say so though it does help of course to present some proof or counterposition. But just because someone says an idea is "stupid", that does not confer a right on anyone to say that the person with the idea is stupid. Let's be courteous and tolerant here.

Regards ... Doug







Doug, just to clear something up i never called him stupid i called his statement a lie and that statement was stupid not him and i think that was clear in my post and i backed it up with fact, TONY LOVES TO STIR THE POT WHEN IT COMES TO BATTERY STUFF, thats why i usually stay out of it but when he puts out false statement and always trys to make track people sound like the spend more $ for running track power thats just not true. also i know Tony has to put food on the table so when someone want to go track power he tends to get excided when someone offers a oppion on track running... at the end of the day,you run what you want there are plenty of people and info on bolth sides of this and i HAVE stated that before..and in my opion the days of the 1 and 2 engine rr's are or at the end.. people are moving toward more engines and track and thats the simple facts but someone doesnt want to see that and is stuck at 20 years ago..... Also i dont see anywea,r wear anyone knocked battery power from the track guys? other than to debate certain untrue comment....2009 gentleman love it or hate things are changing.....


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Nicholas

I did not name you ... but simply reminded everyone to be polite and courteous regardless of what you feel about what others might say.

If you feel the cap fits, then you should wear it.

Regards ... Doug


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Bill I didn't say anything about cost because I know it changes alot. But I will say that I just got 300+ feet of Stainless Steel track for less than $1,100 so don't be scared of the posts of $4,000+ , they aren't necessarily true at all. When I needed track, Ray sent me a link to a couple of places where he thought I might be able to find some good prices. That is how I ended up with such a good deal. Not just with track, but with everything else, it is good to shop around as sometimes you will find sales, clearanced items, and just extra stock that companies want to get rid of to make room for other stock. This is where the studying part comes in but I will try to help you out any way I can, just ask ^^

-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Some more small points: I use track power, for reasons similar to Raymond. I run DCC and it does not need (nor is it a good idea) to use the Bridgewerks power supplies, DCC wants regulated power supplies. Bridgewerks is unregulated. The power supplies I use are industrial quality, 10 amps and cost about $80 each. 

On DCS, "pure" DC is much more important, and somewhat important on normal DC track power. 

I also use nicad batteries in my other hobbies, and I have 15 and 20 year old nicads, they are the exception, but 5 years is not at all an unreasonable expectation for any quality nicad. Virtually all nicads are spec'd at 1000 charge/discharge cycles, much more that li-ion which are typically 300-400. 

Not drawing sides here, just presenting factual data I can back up. 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

that is one of the stupidest things i have ever heard.


Nicholas Savatgy, 
dear Sir, my deepest apologies, to have you upset. 
i blame my faulty command of english - errr... american - for that. 
so let me clear up the missunderstanding. 
i did not mean to call some people lazy. and specially neither battery runners, nor trackpower runners more so, than the other group. 
my main point was, WHEN does one want to be more lazy, and WHEN less so. 
i, using trackpower, prefer to work harder, while building a layout, automatizing everything and putting a lot of wiring, to be able later to sit lazyly and watch my eight trains go round. 
while the battery running modellers, to my understanding, have less preparing work, but are more active while playing with their trains. 

and sure you are right, it would be stupid from me to call you lazy. a lazy person would not go to such lengths, to correct my errors. 
and, i fully agree with you, Sir, it would be a lie, if i would advocate battery power. all save one, my trains have run on trackpower over the last 40 years. 

sincerely yours, korm 

edit: while editing an error, i had an afterthought.
it really did not enter my mind, that there might be modellers, who never want to relax. sorry for that omission.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Dougald on 01/05/2009 9:38 AM
Nicholas

I did not name you ... but simply reminded everyone to be polite and courteous regardless of what you feel about what others might say.

If you feel the cap fits, then you should wear it.

Regards ... Doug













Doug thought your comment was directed at me as i was the only one to use the word stupid but not for the reason i think you thought, no harm no foul alls good... i will wear the cap... Korm, also not upset at all, because one has a debate with another doesnt mean hes mad or upset..
Nick


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

WOW this thread has gone to three pages in one day. Like I told you Capt'n Bill you opened the largest can of worms in large scale model railroading with your question. I just hope no one scares you away from garden railroading with their highly energized replys. After all we are all just playing with toy trains and enjoying every moment. Fixing problems is just part of the fun. 

Big John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Since track costs are a major part of building a layout it is worth mentioning that the annual Aristo-Craft Track Sale is now in progress:

http://www.aristocraft.com/special/index.html

There is also a new track that was announced by Aristo-Craft:

_*ARISTO-CRAFT ANNOUNCES "ECONO-FLEX" TRACK!*_
* August 2nd, 2008

Aristo-Craft has developed a new flex track using an economy type brass with less copper content to fight rising copper prices. As you know, Aristo-Craft track has 85% pure copper content. This new track is at the legal limit of copper content to be still called brass.
* 

Further, Aristo announced a brand new Train Engineer:

http://www.aristocraft.com/insiders/2009/InsiderJanFeb2009.pdf

With 2009 here we can also expect to see some new track and other items being introduced by Piko, LGB and other sources. 

The features that differentiate one system from another are becoming harder to define just as DCS came out with bidirectional communications between transmitters and receivers and now similar capabilities are being seen in MTS/DCC and now switchable battery/track power from Aristo.

Just when we think we have a grip on what is unique about one power system vs other systems the manufacturers change their benchmarks.

I hate to choose one thing if it forces me to give up another thing. For that reason I like to have a bit of everything.

When some LGB locos came with a decoder I tend to run them on MTS. Since MTH locos come with DCS I like to run them with DCS. If Aristo is going to give me plug and play circuit boards that let me plug and play with switchable track and battery power I will probably try that too. 

I've never found a system that I did not like something about and I've never found a system that made me want to go to the expense and trouble of converting everything to it.

Sometimes it is my preference for a particular locomotive that dictates what power system I will end up running it with. The way I see it our track is nothing different from two large uninsulated electrical conductors. 

One advantage of heavy brass or stainless steel track is that if someone steps on it there is less likelihood that it will be ruined. It can even have significant resale value after 10 years. My 10 year old brass track now has a new life on someone else's layout and I bought a significant quantity of used LGB brass track that had been very heavily used in a grocery store.

We usually end up buying what we like rather than what we need - and that is perfectly OK.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Well. I'll reiterate, glad I posed the question! No doubt a lot of folks got a starter kit to run around the Christmas tree, or got a piece of rolling stock, and are wondering where you go next. At least, folks feel strongly about the various techniques available to run their trains. I had no idea of the various options. If you don't know better, it would be easy to drop a few hundred $ and suddenly realize: "Gee, I could have gone in a different direction!" What got me started was right before Christmas taking my Grandkids to the local Club layout. They have layouts in a Mall store of Z, N, HO, O, and G. I belonged some years back, as an N guager, and dropped out. When I saw the G scale and the locos, that was it! Had to have one! Next, got my application to rejoin, but didn't think to ask what kind of power they run. Now, at home, I have 4 acres to play with, some wooded..a great area to have an outdoor testle infested, shaded, winding, sloping out of the way place, with occasional high snow drifts! I'd have to run power out there, unless....And, yes, for me, money is a consideration, but you guys have given me some concise options I might otherwise have not thought about. Obviously, this ain't the place for the 'ole Ho-hum bunch', and that's a good thing. And, there's that big 2-8-8-2 with my name on it lurking out there somewhere!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Since this thread is for a beginner, I feel compelled to post this: 

Aristo uses screws to hold the rails to the tie strips. There are screw holes drilled from underneath through the foot into the web of the rail. In the instances I have seen of cracked Aristo rail (cold temperatures, flexing or both) the rail has cracked there, at these screw holes in the rail. 

Buying a "lesser grade" from Aristo concerns me if these potential problems would be worse. Not saying this is a big or common problem, but a beginner does not have the benefit of knowing these things can and have happened. 

Regards, Greg


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Good luck Bill on whatever you decide. You can't beat the G scale 'Wow' factor.


Raymond


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Best of luck Bill in which ever type system you choose. I'm sure you will be pleased with your choice. Later RJD


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 01/05/2009 12:46 PM
Good luck Bill on whatever you decide. You can't beat the G scale 'Wow' factor.


Raymond



Hey Ray, I agree....in my case the NOW factor has always been a hiccup...as a newbie I was surprised at the amount of work involved in all this "train stuff" and after a few years of it, the time devoted has been less, but the experiences are more rewarding!


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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

That's exactly how I feel too Cale, it does get more rewarding as time goes on.  There are so many facets that you can move from one area to another as you have time, money and desire. I've been immersed in the hobby for I guess 4 years now and I never get tired or bored with it. I have as much fun now as I did when I had my first little loop with my first Bachmann Big Hauler Annie. 


Raymond


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)

Raymond, 
I have Ni-Cad's that I've had for 6 or 7 years that are still doing just fine, however on my new installs I've started using lithium.....as they seem to have more power and a smaller size.....and also I still have track power for friends and the stuff still to be converted...


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Rayman4449 on 01/05/2009 3:33 PM
I have as much fun now as I did when I had my first little loop with my first Bachmann Big Hauler Annie. 


Raymond



Hi Raymond,

if you don't mind my piggy-backing on your comment I think it brings out something of value for beginners.

First I bought the Bachmann Annie. It was a nice loco but it did not like the humps and dips of my layout so I replaced it with a LGB Mogul and you ended up with a perfectly good Annie. 

Later I had a MTH Hudson but it did not like my sharp curves so it too was replaced with a different LGB loco and the Hudson found a new home on your layout.

Others ended up with the rest of my Annies, 4-4-0's and C-16's which also did not like the humps and dips and sharp curves of my layout.

We both ended up with Challengers and Big Boys and you converted to DCS.

I stayed with mostly analog track power but added a number of LGB locos with decoders so added MTS capability along with DCS and analog track power to my layout.

Sometimes it is factors that we never considered that end up having a major influence of how we run our layouts and what we (can) run on them.

It would be quite hard to put either decoders or battery packs into little locomotives, hand cars etc. and understandably some people do not want to spend more for a sound system or a battery system than they did to buy a locomotive. There are other factors such as response time that make me prefer a hard wired (tethered) remote when I am switching over remotes that increase and decrease speeds in steps and sometimes with a noticeable delay before they respond.

The same holds true for remotes that go to sleep to save batteries while I have a train running causing a panic while I rush to prevent a derailment.

Nothing is perfect so the more we know the better choices we can make. Often the best choice tends to be to run someone else's trains with the type of system we think we want to buy.

I have been in this hobby now for over 10 years and I am still changing my preferences in what I buy and how I like to run my trains. One of the best things about this hobby is the ability to buy and sell used trains and other equipment as our wants and needs change.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Dean Whipple (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Rayman4449 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 01/05/2009 4:05 PM
Posted By Rayman4449 on 01/05/2009 3:33 PM
I have as much fun now as I did when I had my first little loop with my first Bachmann Big Hauler Annie. 


Raymond



Hi Raymond,

if you don't mind my piggy-backing on your comment I think it brings out something of value for beginners.

First I bought the Bachmann Annie. It was a nice loco but it did not like the humps and dips of my layout so I replaced it with a LGB Mogul and you ended up with a perfectly good Annie. 

Later I had a MTH Hudson but it did not like my sharp curves so it too was replaced with a different LGB loco and the Hudson found a new home on your layout.

Others ended up with the rest of my Annies, 4-4-0's and C-16's which also did not like the humps and dips and sharp curves of my layout.

We both ended up with Challengers and Big Boys and you converted to DCS.

I stayed with mostly analog track power but added a number of LGB locos with decoders so added MTS capability along with DCS and analog track power to my layout.

Sometimes it is factors that we never considered that end up having a major influence of how we run our layouts and what we (can) run on them.

It would be quite hard to put either decoders or battery packs into little locomotives, hand cars etc. and understandably some people do not want to spend more for a sound system or a battery system than they did to buy a locomotive. There are other factors such as response time that make me prefer a hard wired (tethered) remote when I am switching over remotes that increase and decrease speeds in steps and sometimes with a noticeable delay before they respond.

The same holds true for remotes that go to sleep to save batteries while I have a train running causing a panic while I rush to prevent a derailment.

Nothing is perfect so the more we know the better choices we can make. Often the best choice tends to be to run someone else's trains with the type of system we think we want to buy.

I have been in this hobby now for over 10 years and I am still changing my preferences in what I buy and how I like to run my trains. One of the best things about this hobby is the ability to buy and sell used trains and other equipment as our wants and needs change.

Regards,

Jerry



FYI, there is a new software update that (among other things) allows you to set the sleep time on your remote up to 60 mins instead of a fixed 15. I'll email you offline. 

Raymond


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## Cheapy 38-2 (Jan 9, 2008)

Dont read if you get emotional- Batteries? No thanks, I have enough trouble keeping my phone charged, and when it dies..WOW I hate that. Im completely happy with my track power/DCS control. I wouldnt change a thing and honestly think any other way to go is WRONG! Hows that for an opinion?!! 
Cap'n bill if you havent already, check out Ray's site. youll understand then. see ya


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

It never ceases to amaze me the information to be gathered here. I have floopped back and forth on battery versus track power. Just when I think I may be close to going one way or another, a thread will come up with a post which makes me go "Hmmmm?" I have perved member web pages with envy, taking note of what various people have done (Raymond and Greg come to mind as having first rate set ups to name a couple of the many here). There is such a plethora of information here with veterans and rookies a like, there is bound to be some controversy. Most importantly I have to ask myself why I get so worked up with this hobby. Short answer is it is fun and should remain to be as such. The track power versus battery question is not a matter of which is better, but what will put a smile on your face and keep there until it hurts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I wrote a few things on my site about how I made the decision between track power and battery. In my case, the cost was a low priority, this is my main hobby, and enjoying it is priority number 1. 

When I considered every thing I wanted, one method worked better. 

I think one reason people have a hard time deciding is that they are not putting down their priorities and also taking a realistic view of what their layout WILL be. 

One I looked at it this way, it was so clear that there was no agonizing over the answer. 

When a new person gets caught up in this quandry, they see a successful battery guy and then a successful track guy and get confused. If you look deeper at what YOU want and need from your setup, and put priorities on each thing, the answer is clear. 

For example, the person you are talking to may put lowest cost as #1 factor, but it might not be your #1, so you need to use YOUR priorities. 

I read forums for years before really going out and deciding on a control system, and when I started, what I wanted was not made, but I knew it was coming. 

It's here now, and I'm happy. 

Regards, Greg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Very well spoken Greg ^^ 

-Will


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 01/05/2009 8:44 AM

Doug, just to clear something up i never called him stupid i called his statement a lie and that statement was stupid not him and i think that was clear in my post and i backed it up with fact, TONY LOVES TO STIR THE POT WHEN IT COMES TO BATTERY STUFF, thats why i usually stay out of it but when he puts out false statement and always trys to make track people sound like the spend more $ for running track power thats just not true. also i know Tony has to put food on the table so when someone want to go track power he tends to get excided when someone offers a oppion on track running... at the end of the day,you run what you want there are plenty of people and info on bolth sides of this and i HAVE stated that before..and in my opion the days of the 1 and 2 engine rr's are or at the end.. people are moving toward more engines and track and thats the simple facts but someone doesnt want to see that and is stuck at 20 years ago..... Also i dont see anywea,r wear anyone knocked battery power from the track guys? other than to debate certain untrue comment....2009 gentleman love it or hate things are changing.....






Nick.

I have quite clearly demonstrated that it is entirely true that there would be enough money left over from purchasing Aluminium track compared to the cost of brass or stainless steel to buy three battery R/C trail cars.
The figures I used were those given by Raymond. I didn't make them up.
Sure I make battery R/C equipment, but not once have I blatantly promoted my own products in this thread.
Rather, it is the principle of battery R/C for LargeScale that I extol. 
Cap'nBill will make up his own mind which brand of R/C to go with, if that is what he decides to do.

No one likes being accused of lying. Least of all me.

So, if it is me you are accusing of lying, would you be so kind as to point out to me precisely what lie or lies I told.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2009)

Tony Walsham, 

i have no reason to doubt the numbers given. 
but i can not go along with the point of view, you are getting from them. 
to substitute brassrail (the most common, i think) by aluminium rail is an entire different thing by itself. 
comparing the control systems with the same track would be more to the point, imho. 

but, anyhow, i have to repeat, that we all are different people, with different taste. 
and, repeating myself, the main difference between trackpower and the other control systems seems to be, that trackpower lends itself more to automatization (blocksystems, trains triggering other trains etc) for those amongst us, who like to comfortably watch their trains, without doing anything (you see, i evade the word "lazy"...) 
on the other hand, i see clearly, that any kind of direct and/or remote control will highten the fun at manually operating a layout. 

so i think, we should concentrate on tecnical and operational differences, not on economic differences of the controlling options. 

korm


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

This topic and its frequently accompanying recriminations always seems, to me, to be a _VERSUS_ issue, rather than an _AS WELL AS_ one.

I am sure many of us do use both power options.


I like my track clean and having a small RR it is easily and quickly achieved. So I use track power most of the time - Aristo TE controlled - but have the battery option for those occasions, especially during the English wintertime, when overnight dampness makes track cleaning a non starter and due to low, or no sun it could mean a non running day. This has given me a lot more flexibility with my railroad operating. 

I must say that whatever the costings add up to - and like accountants not everyone agrees the figures - most who change to battery already seem to have their track and infrastructure so it becomes an addition rather than an either or. I have not found the initial battery set up to be very cheap. Batteries, trailer cars(s), connectors and TE receiver(s) all come at a price. This is probably the reason that it took me two years to implement a battery option having preferred to consolidate my loco and rolling stock in the first instance.

Hopefully, we all move forward in our hobby and one thing that I found at an early stage in my hobby research was that there is more than one way. The skill is to choose _your _best way.


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have one RC/Battery car. One great use for it is to clean the track to run track powered locos. The other great use is for visiting and running your equipment on other RR's where they only run battery. And if you are really brave and sure you have all the wiring correct, you can run your battery operated loco on same rail as track powered loco. I beleive the two power options can co-exist and compliment each other............Jim


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## Big John (Jan 4, 2008)

Since I only run narrow gauge steam engines with short trains I don't have the need for endless amounts of power. I guess if I had tripple headed engines pulling fifty cars I might change my mind. I like walking around with my engine and hand throwing switches, un-couppling cars, etc, I don't do a lot of automatic operations such as having wisthles, bells or hornes sound automatically when comming to crossings or depots. I just push a button on my handheld transmitter when required. I like being the engineer and having to run the train. This type of operation works very well with a battery/RC system. I don't think the bottom line cost is very much different in battery versus track power over the long haul. I agree with Greg that you should run your trains the way that you enjoy. That being said if you do start out with track power you can always add a battery powered engine to your roster and run it on the same layout. 

Big John


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01/06/2009 5:20 AM
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 01/05/2009 8:44 AM

Doug, just to clear something up i never called him stupid i called his statement a lie and that statement was stupid not him and i think that was clear in my post and i backed it up with fact, TONY LOVES TO STIR THE POT WHEN IT COMES TO BATTERY STUFF, thats why i usually stay out of it but when he puts out false statement and always trys to make track people sound like the spend more $ for running track power thats just not true. also i know Tony has to put food on the table so when someone want to go track power he tends to get excided when someone offers a oppion on track running... at the end of the day,you run what you want there are plenty of people and info on bolth sides of this and i HAVE stated that before..and in my opion the days of the 1 and 2 engine rr's are or at the end.. people are moving toward more engines and track and thats the simple facts but someone doesnt want to see that and is stuck at 20 years ago..... Also i dont see anywea,r wear anyone knocked battery power from the track guys? other than to debate certain untrue comment....2009 gentleman love it or hate things are changing.....






Nick.

I have quite clearly demonstrated that it is entirely true that there would be enough money left over from purchasing Aluminium track compared to the cost of brass or stainless steel to buy three battery R/C trail cars.
The figures I used were those given by Raymond. I didn't make them up.
Sure I make battery R/C equipment, but not once have I blatantly promoted my own products in this thread.
Rather, it is the principle of battery R/C for LargeScale that I extol. 
Cap'nBill will make up his own mind which brand of R/C to go with, if that is what he decides to do.

No one likes being accused of lying. Least of all me.

So, if it is me you are accusing of lying, would you be so kind as to point out to me precisely what lie or lies I told.







1ST Thing Tony i never called you a liar just the statement Korm made in witch it was so.. if you read that again there is were you will see that QUOTE...but if you want to be in command, if you want to shunt a lot and send trains where you want anytime, go RC and battery.....By Korm....this statement is not true as i can with my dcs or track power run a freight and switchers all on the same track no problems. you always say that battery power is cheaper to implament then track power that is not true in my case and many others. i own at new last count 76 engines and over 379 piece of varios rolling stock and if i were to install battery powery in all of them i would be broke. but not so running on dc, Now maybe as you recently amitted that if most people ran 2 locos with a smaller rr batterys are cheaper to run than i would agree with you, but i think the trend is toward more locos and larger layouts were battery power is not a option for the adverage person.. only because of the $ involved.... to tell you the honest truth and this is MY opion only.... i think its to much trouble to keep charging and changing batterys out all the time, but thats my opion and i have NEVER stated it out loud until this thread cause i have respeact for what others run.... because of what you said about track power guys...i had to stated my opion.. to each there own has alway be my motto and i have NEVER put down another power system EVER... YOU YOU KEEP SAYING THAT TRACK GUYS HAVE TO CLEAN THERE TRACK ALL THE TIME AND THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!! I HAVE SS, AND I OR RAYMOND OR A LOT OF OTHERS THAT OWN SS TRACK AS TO THIS POINT HAVE NOT CLEANED ANY SS TRACK. you also state that we all have to buy rail clamps for power contenuity and that is not true as well.. i buy clamps for my track because i run some of the biggest and heavyest trains out there and i want the track to stay togerther with my 80 lb bigboy goes across it.. i would do this even if i ran alum track!!!! thats just a no brainer... power contenuity is a benifit when using clamps....you also say its cheaper to install alum track and thats not quite true either.. you neglected to tell people that alum is soft and is much more prone to damage than other materails when laid on the ground. if you raise it up on a stable platform it is less likely to be damaged , but to do that the aveage Joe would have to spend 1000's of dallars to get this done with wood or metal or what ever.. SS track is much stronger to use on the ground as it is far more durable than alum to people and animals stepping on it.. while everything you have said has a hint of truth to it... it doesnt always say the whole truth and thats my problem with your statements.. now as i usually say i dont get involve these battery vs track threads i just want you to respect other forms of power thats all.. and when you put facts out there you should put them all out in fareness to the new guys.. I have always had Respect for you Tony cause your not afraid to speak you mind and you stand up for what you beleive in... and you and Most others know i never back down from anyone or anything till im proven WRONG and that my freind rarely happenes ... but just give us other guys the same respect you would want for your self.. when it comes to other forms of power. thank you and i hope you and some others can understand were im coming from, and that i do not have nor ever had any issues with battery guys.and at the end of the day what ever works best for anyones personal rr is the best way for them to go. there is plenty of material out thre to read and make a decission from thats again.
Nick..


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Paragraphs?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Sorry but im not a writer....


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick. 

Now you say it is not me you are calling a liar, it is Kormsen. 

This part sounds awfully like you are accusing me: 

..."TONY LOVES TO STIR THE POT WHEN IT COMES TO BATTERY STUFF, thats why i usually stay out of it but when he puts out false statement and always trys to make track people sound like the spend more $ for running track power thats just not true."..... 

In trying to wade through those long one paragraph writings I hope I have not taken that comment out of context, but, that is how it reads to me. 

"....he puts out false statement ..." refers explicitly to me.


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys

The points have been made by all the parties on the pros and cons of the various systems. Readers can be informed and make their choice. If anyone has more constructive commentary to add the thread remains open.

But calling someone a liar because your experience is different then his is not a courteous and meaningful way to advance the discussion. And on that subject I have allowed a rebuttal from the man accused. That is enough of that sort of talk ... let's get back to discussing trains and lets do so in a civilized way. The moderators do not like to lock threads or edit out posts and such actions should not be required here.

Regards ... Doug


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, this is called "Escalation." You're not actually fighting over something, but fighting over fighting. I'd ask my 7-year-olds, "are you escalating" and send them to their places for a few minutes.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Let's all forget who said what to who... ok? 

Back to the topic, good batteries can last UP TO about 1,000 cycles, and if you only discharge your batteries half way, that means 2,000 "uses"... I have nicads, and have studied charging techniques for many years, I have some 20 year old nicads still servicable. 

That said, most battery chargers do not work well, and quick charging trades off battery life. As Tony said premium quality batteries, not Chinese junk (I agree, Japanese batteries are tops now). 

Also, most people do not take the right care of their batteries. 

That said, the cost factor between battery power and track power depends on how you use it... One loco at a time and a trail car beats track power any time... 

A lot of locos at the same time and long/continuous run times beats battery power any time... even Dennis Serrine in Phoenix who has a million dollars invested ran out of power at the NGRC. 

The problem is that most users fall in between these 2 extremes. 

So where is the sweet spot? 

It's normally DIFFERENT for EACH PERSON. Thus the endless back and forth. 

Back to what the user wants/needs, run time, time to spend charging, cost, trail car ok, etc. 

Everyone wants to get to the answer, but without doing it step by step, what are the user's needs and in priority order. 

I guarantee that if anyone wrote down their wants and put them in priority, I could take that list, make the decision, and 95% of all the people shown the decision and the reasons would agree. (That's my hit rate so far). 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg. 

Is Dennis Serrine the same gentleman who allegedly returned 100+ battery packs (definitely not NiCd's) to the manufacturer/importer after the NGRC because they allegedly failed during the NGRC? 

Your method of writing down wants and analysing the results to arrive at a properly considered decision, is the most sensible way of going about making such decisions.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you Tony, I found it the most successful way. (I actually have had training in solving problems, called "structured problem decomposition")... 

Dennis returned around 100 Aristo li-ion packs. There was a production run of them (as documented on the Aristo forum) where the charging/protection circuitry on board was defective, and they shut down on certain loads, notably the Aristo trackside TE. That must have hurt bad. 

The problems Dennis had at the NGRC were not these problems, he was just running continuous, long trains, many lighted streamliners, and no way to swap out the batteries quickly for fresh ones. I was there midday when the batteries ran out and he was switching over to track power. 

Funny, the entire layout was wired for power, and impeccable construction. I would have opted for track power and wireless control. I actually would recommend DCC for his particular application, but the people there were unaware of how much wireless coverage is available if needed. 

I did also see limited range on AirWire, I believe his interference problems were not worked out. 

I'm not ragging on him, but it seems that someone suggested a solution that was not looking carefully at how his layout was set up and what his needs were. 

Since that time, I believe he has gotten better advice and support. He definitely had the $$, but he did not desire trailing cars, and had not modified locos to allow quick pack changes. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

He obviously did not know about the way of plugging batteries in a rear mounted charging jack to extend run times.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Ok, this is real simple... Tony Walsham = R/C Rules! We got the point lol HUGS! 

-Will


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Will.


Make that *battery* R/C rules, and I will enthusiastically agree with you.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Track power works. 

Battery power rules.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

No way! Solar powered locomotives are the best, AND they are environmentally friendly.







BUT WAIT! Call in the next ten minutes and recieve these complimentary Class I railroad earplugs and operating rulebook, a $5.00 value, absolutely FREE! *chuckle*

-Will (so desperately trying to lighten the mood)


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 01/07/2009 9:43 AM

-Will (so desperately trying to lighten the mood) 




Hi Will,

Try this to lighten the mood:










It works for me.









Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 01/07/2009 9:43 AM
Solar powered locomotives are the best

-Will (so desperately trying to lighten the mood) 




Actually, after posting my handcar photo your comment about solar power hit me - I wonder (seriously) if it might be possible to power a hand car or a Fortuna Flyer with a trailing car with a solar panel.

Does anyone have any idea if it is possible or would a solar panel be to big and heavy to work?

Jerry


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm sure Ray could do it if anyone can. 

-Will


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 01/07/2009 9:54 AM
Posted By Engineercub on 01/07/2009 9:43 AM
 Solar powered locomotives are the best
 
-Will (so desperately trying to lighten the mood) 




Actually, after posting my handcar photo your comment about solar power hit me - I wonder (seriously) if it might be possible to power a hand car or a Fortuna Flyer with a trailing car with a solar panel.
 
Does anyone have any idea if it is possible or would a solar panel be to big and heavy to work?
 
Jerry


You better not have any tunnels.


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## paintjockey (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll tell ya why I went the way I did..... 
My indoor HO layout is DCC and I love it. My friends layout is block wired, and he loves it, but it annoyed me that one loco could work the yard, one could work this part of the main and one cold work that part etc etc etc.... I like to switch cars and run locos not my railroad. DCC was the way to go. 

Move into large scale. I started with a loop on the living room floor, DC powered. I quickly moved outside and payed waaaaay to much for brass track which i powered with DC (and still thinking of DCC) After 2 months outside I had to clean track and it sucked. Sure it was a small loop but cleaning was miserable (for me). 
While on vacation I went to a large scale meet. The people there spent over an hour cleaning the track. What fun. One fella was happily running his loco so I ended up talkin to him and i was consumed by the dark side  
I chose the Airwire system because it is wireless DCC so I was familiar with it. I like all the different functions you can achieve and i like tinkering with speed steps and stuff like that. 
I chose QUALITY batteries to use that give me excellent run times. My batteries outlast me outside in the heat of summer. People argue that batteries are a hassle. It can be true. Normally i charge them as soon as i am done running so they are ready for next time. A few times i have been caught with my pants down and had dead locos. But it's no different than showing up at peoples layouts who had to clean their track before we could run. 
Also you can't really compare loco batteryy life to drill battery life. A drill is worked under max load almost all the time. It would be like the loco hauling bricks around behind it, that would kill the batteries fast. 
I don't like to sit and watch trains go in circles for hours on end so infinate life span isn't important to me. 
Track power isn't important so I can use much cheaper aluminum rail. 
Not many people come over to my layout so I don't feel a need to accomodate sparky guys. If they do come over I have an extra transmitter and just give them a loco to run. If they don't like it they found their way in, they can find their way back out  But seriously, i've never had a problem with it. 
The only serious problem I have noticed with track power is unless blocked, when you have a short the whole thing goes down. A few times we have had to trouble shoot for a few minutes to a few hours to get a layout up and running. If a battery loco quits (i've only had one quit on me) i give it a red tag and send it to the shop and bring up a replacement. 

But, there is no right and wrong. It's what works for you. Tony's system is bullet proof, I know quite a few who love it. Many like Airwire. Some use and love DCC. Some are straight up DC. Then there are those who use it all. Read the opinions ignore the arguements and make an informed decision. 
Good Luck 
Terry


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## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

it's no doubt been said but try not to rush down a dead end street. it's very easy to add battery locos to a track-powered setup, but not so easy to power up track after battery use without a load of lifting and clamping and relaying...If I had my time again I would go stainless, clamps, track power..but still have several battery engines and locos amongst the others. it may be stainless but we have the dirtiest rain and stickiest tree dew in the summer....yuk

i really did try track power and DCC, for 3 years....but ther was no SS when I started...and so much cleaning of track and stalling of engines. batteries brought the smile back to my face. but my long term plan is to re-instate track power. Now I have an army of track-cleaner-capable engines haha!

NickS - you can be a writer. When you've finished your post before you submit it - read it aloud and every time you take a breath put two carriage returns when you stopped  just joking mate anyone with all that DCS can't be bad. DCS would be my control choice for track power but don't tell the DCC people....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was discussing the seemingly endless track vs battery debates that seem to spring up with a friend tonight. It seems that some of the emotion may be because some people have gone down a path they cannot come back from without a lot of work. 

I do appreciate that many people go battery in order to save $$, and it seems superfluous to make your track able to handle power if you are going battery, but maybe it's not a bad idea for beginners to cover all bases. 

Food for thought. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/07/2009 7:15 PM
I was discussing the seemingly endless track vs battery debates that seem to spring up with a friend tonight. It seems that some of the emotion may be because some people have gone down a path they cannot come back from without a lot of work. 

I do appreciate that many people go battery in order to save $$, and it seems superfluous to make your track able to handle power if you are going battery, but maybe it's not a bad idea for beginners to cover all bases. 

Food for thought. 

Regards, Greg 




Hi Greg,

While most people I know who have gone with battery operations (or DCC or DCS) seem to be happy with their choices there are two things that stick in my mind.

1. Hearing someone tell newbies that the climate in Arkansas is too harsh for track power (Bah - Humbug). 

2. Someone who had gone with battery power told me he would hate to discover that all the extra work and expense had not been necessary.

Most initial layouts start out small and most locos come set up for track power. Many (perhaps most) never grow beyond this just as many Lionel sets never expanded beyond the Christmas Tree.

I don't think it matters much what anyone ends up with as long as they are happy with it.

Building a layout is not unlike getting married. If you rush through all the decisions without considering the potential consequences you may regret it. None of us would marry a girl just because our friends liked her and I know of more than one layout that has lasted longer than the marriage.

What has always struck me as sort of odd is that track power guys seem to be pretty laid back when it comes to what others should do while the battery power guys seem motivated to promote it. I've never been able to get excited over a battery or a decoder or putting flammable gas into one of my locomotives and igniting it (the last time I did that I singed my eyebrows). 

I think someone said track power is for lazy people. If so I'm not insulted - I'm proud of being lazy. Some call it being retired. 

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, I have to say, and I am being objective here.. it's way more common for the battery guys to invade a track power thread than vice versa. 

You can read numerous threads where the track power person asks what kind of rail, what joiners, solder joints, etc. 

Does not take more than a page before somebody posts "well if you ran battery you would not need any of this:... 

Now, search the forums where a thread on a battery install is invaded by someone thumping his chest to convert to track power... 

Don't anyone yell, just look at the threads here, lsc, and the Aristo forum... the proof is there... but now I have really derailed things... 

Greg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Understandable Greg, minorities as a rule have to scream louder because it is the only way they are heard. I will say that noone is going to change anyone's minds, humanity is a stubborn species lol. If you grew up under certain beliefs, you will usually die with those same beliefs. We are comfortable with things that are in our realm of understanding and tend to shun all else. What works for one may not work for another, but everyone has to validate their choices and as such convert everyone else to their belief structure. Yada yada yada philisophical yada yada yada blah blah blah.... HUGS to all ^^

-Will


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 01/07/2009 11:26 PM
no one is going to change anyone's minds, humanity is a stubborn species lol. If you grew up under certain beliefs, you will usually die with those same beliefs. We are comfortable with things that are in our realm of understanding and tend to shun all else. What works for one may not work for another, but everyone has to validate their choices and as such convert everyone else to their belief structure. 




Hi Will,

I suspect the conflicts would (or at least could) go away if a dab of salesmanship was introduced. No one likes being told what to do and most people resent and resist what they are being told to do. Even someone who asks for advice is probably not looking for someone to make their decisions for them but rather to be provided sufficient information (pro and con) to enable them to make their own mind up. A salesman is taught that if he pushes too hard for agreement that even if he verbally gets it that he will probably lose the sale because that is how the customer can silently "win" the argument.

We tend to be a curious lot. If someone told me I HAD to switch to batteries or DCC or DCS they would instantly trigger an absolute determination to NOT do whatever I was being told to do. 

On the other hand if someone posted a topic stating the he/she had switched to battery power or DCC or DCS and was happy with the results PLUS he/she included why they did it, what the alternatives were and why they were rejected, and how he/she made the conversion including what they bought and how much it cost - out of curiosity I would probably read the topic with an open mind. 

Manufacturers are not dumb.

LGB got me to buy into MTS when they put "free" decoders into their locomotives

MTH got me to buy into DCS when they put it in their Challengers and Big Boys

Aristo-Craft is tempting me with their new Train Engineer because it combines some of the features of MTS/DCC and DCS and Track Power - and the interface is built into their new locomotives

Aristo-Craft even got me to try live steam when they brought the cost way down with their live steam Mikado and matching Heavyweights

Some of my trains even came with battery power

I think that the future of garden railroading will get a lot brighter if and when we wake up and start working together instead of trying to prove that one system is better than the others. 

A friend and I have been experimenting with various options. I have been trying various mixtures of different brands and scales of decoders, and central stations and boosters while he has been experimenting with running DCS and Aristo on board controllers on the same track at the same time. He can run a battery train; a DCS powered train and a train with a track powered on board controller all at the same time.

It is my personal opinion that when we choose we lose. If we choose one system (any system) over all of the other systems we forfeit the benefits we might have found with the other systems. There can be a lot of fun and a lot of information can be discovered when we go beyond the limits of a single power system.

For me the beauty of a layout built for track power is that I can do anything I want - today - tomorrow - or next year - with it. To build a layout just for battery power would be to lock me out permanently from anything that cannot readily (and cost effectively) be converted to battery power.

We look at the cost of track as a major expense which it is. Perhaps we should instead be looking at it the way we look at our house because the track will probably last as long as we live in our home. It will certainly last longer than most of us keep our cars. My house was built for cheap electric heat. It was a real problem when electric heat went sky high and I had to convert to propane (there were no vents to pipe the fumes up through the roof) and another problem when the price of propane went up and we converted to a heat pump. 

If the house had been built to allow for different heating and cooling options it would be a lot more efficient to heat and cool today and would have saved me a lot of money these past 20 years.

While it may have been more expensive to buy bits of track power; MTS/DCC; DCS and battery power everything is relevant. I have now been retired going on 10 years. If I divide what I have spent on my trains by 10 I will quickly find that they have cost me far less than any other hobby I might have tried for my retirement years. The tighter money gets the more I appreciate the savings this hobby represents by letting me enjoy each day at an operating cost of pennies per day.

Cheers,

Jerry


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