# Anyone using ATF on the rails to improve performance?



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Apparently improves electrical conductivity , reduces oxidization, improves tracktion and makes the trains run better all around - also good for DCC powered systems.

First experiments with Dextron III are extremely positive.

Just wondered if anyone is using AFT on their railroad and if so, which specific type.

Just a couple drops at a few different places on the track, then run the train to distribute the ATF.Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No gunk on the rails for me, thank you very much. Attracts dirt and other gunk. 

Over the years, there have been many advocates of putting a light oil of some type on the rails. It retards oxidation, but you normally lose traction and attract dust. Some chemical compounds also attack the ties. (Yes I know you only are using a few drops). 

Regards, Greg


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Funny this should come up here. It's been all over the USATrainsgregistry site. I've been using Dexron III ATF on a couple of layouts. It does all those things. I apply it very sparingly at a couple of locations, then run the locomotives around the layout 

It does improve conductivity (quick stalls are all but gone), doesn't appear to attract dirt or dust, and does improve traction. On one layout there's about an 8% grade that was a problem for light Bachmann engines. Now, even those engines can pull several cars up the hill. 

That layout is code 332 brass of various manufacturers and ages. I've also used it on a small loop at home. Even leaving town for a week, the loop started up quickly and smoothly. I did have to remove dried peach guts from the track, but the fluid seemed to improve conductivity even through that. 

I tried it out on about 40 feet of code 250 Al track and a Aristo Critter that hasn't run for a while. The Critter stuttered at first, then smoothed out. After it was running smooth, I put a track cleaning caboose of my own design on and ran the pair back and forth for about 20 minutes. 

So it appears to work well on brass and aluminum. Jury is still out on stainless steel and nickle silver, though.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

P.S. I've got a tie soaking in ATF now. It's been there for about three days, and it hasn't dissolved yet.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I finally figured out you guys are talking about "Automatic Transmission Fluid", not "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms".


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I also use ATF on my layouts, does just what Dick said. Works even better on my "N" gage tabletop layout (Kato N/S track).


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

My only experience with this kind of thing was trying CRC 2-26, which is an amazing product but caused me a lot of problems. 2-26 is an electrical cleaner and lubricant. It removes corrosion and improves power pickup, but it makes the rail slippery, and gave me problems with trains on grades. I ended up having to clean it off. I still use it, but make sure it stays off the rails. 

I looked nto it--ATF is mostly mineral oil, with anticorrosion and detergent additives. It's supposed to be plastic safe. Since its primary purpose is lubrication, I suspect it'd cause the same slippery rail issues. At the same time, I'd bet it works well to cut and reduce corrosion.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I tried CRC 2-26 also, and had the same results. I had some locos with rusted wheels (Aristo diesels are poorly plated over steel) and was tired of cleaning them every 7 days, just from sitting outside. 

The CRC cleaned all the rust off the wheels fantastically, but then laid down all the junk in a black grimy goop, which was very difficult to remove completely. 

I had the same extreme loss of traction, to the point that a USAT GP9 would not climb a 3.4% grade by itself. I also have Aristo stainless track. 

Over the years, many different compounds have been tried, especially in the smaller scales, to leave something on the rails that leaves a fine coating, which will block oxidation. 

I have never seen one that would increase traction, and I have never seen one that did not increase buildup on the wheels. 

It just makes sense that ANY liquid that does not evaporate (this is the basis of it working) must accumulate eventually and can become contaminated with dust and dirt. Dust and dirt falling from the air cannot cut in the retro rockets to avoid landing on the rails! 

Adding any compound to the rails that does not evaporate will require eventual cleaning and replacement. 

Now, maybe this routine cleaning off and replacing might be less work for some individuals, as compared to mechanically abrading the rail surface to remove oxidation. 

I found that "dry cleaning" of oxidation of brass rail was less work for me. Your mileage may vary! 

Regards, Greg


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## tmtrainz (Feb 9, 2010)

On a similar note, I ususally put a temporary loop of track in the front yard for Christmas. The first lesson I learned was that frost makes a poor conductor. To combat the problem on those bitter winter nights I wipe the rails down with a rag sprayed with WD-40. This is a sure fire way to keep frost from forming on your track. 

Tom


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Not to be combative, but the *primary* purpose of ATF is to transfer power from an engine to a differential. It can't be slippery or it won't work. Fluid drives (which is what an automatic transmission is) require that the powered side transmit force to the unpowered side. 

All this chit chat is nice, but not informative. Try it and see if it works for you. I've only used Dexron III on brass and aluminum. I'd be very interested in hearing if it works as well on stainless or nickel silver.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

By chance I recently found out that ATF Dex III is used in the transfer case of my Dakota 4x4. Not all that knowledgable about transfer cases I assumed its lube and cooling vs. a hydraulic device. 
Aftrer trying Snake Oil ...er smoke oil on my track and watching drivers spin... I used CRC Contact Cleaner to clean the rails because as it says on the can; Quick drying, Leaves no residue and is Safe for plastics. 
Worked as advertised. I have SS rails. 

John


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Not sure why you want to dismiss "all this chit chat." I've actually found the whole thread very informative: ATF was not something I'd heard about. And yes, I think we all agree, the fact that it's slippery is possibly a problem. People who have sharp grades on their layouts might want to avoid it. I had a hard time getting the 2-26 off my rails, for example, and would not be eager to have the same problem only worse.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I'm not dismissing information, just the killing of electrons to debate something that can be tested in the field. Try it. If it doesn't work, tell us. That's information we can use. Maybe Dexron III isn't the only ATF that works. Maybe ATF doesn't work well on stainless or nickel silver. I don't know, but I'm not sure telling us about another product that doesn't live up to its hype (or does, depending on who's responding) isn't proving useful info on this topic. 

Just sayin'. Don't kill the messenger.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Anyone try Dexron IV? 
Dexron III seems to be on the way out replaced with Dexron IV for most ATF applications.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dexron IV is a backward replacement for III and II. 

I have an unopened 50+ year old can of Ford ATF Type F if anyone really wants to play around....


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 28 Sep 2011 07:17 PM 
Dexron IV is a backward replacement for III and II.


Yes, I know that.

But since wer are using this ATF for a purpose it was never designed for, therefore I don't think it's a given that Dexron IV will necessarily be as good as Dexron III for our specific application.
Might be the same or better but could also be worse.


Electrical conductivity varies widely with Automatic Transmission Fluids - we need something that doesn't impede the flow of electricity - rather hopefully improves it.

What surprised me the most with this testing so far - also similar reports on the on the USATrains Yahoo site, was the improvement in managing inclines


Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Very interesting. I just read MSDS's (Material safety data sheets) for both Dexron III and Dexron IV. I didn't see anything in the Dexron IV MSDS that jumped out at me, but the Dexron III has paraffins (good anti-oxidant just the same way the LGB smoke fluid acts on track), and has "approximately 0-1.5% of a zinc alkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) additive..." I don't know what this additive does, but given that zinc is the main ingredient in galvanizing maybe this additive acts like an antioxidant and also helps conductivity? There was no mention of this additive or paraffin in the Dexron IV so it would be interesting to see if they act the same on the layouts. As for the added traction, if there was a thin layer of paraffin I would think that would help with traction. 

Keith


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By krs on 28 Sep 2011 07:54 PM 
Posted By Spule 4 on 28 Sep 2011 07:17 PM 
Dexron IV is a backward replacement for III and II.


Yes, I know that.

But since wer are using this ATF for a purpose it was never designed for, therefore I don't think it's a given that Dexron IV will necessarily be as good as Dexron III for our specific application.
Might be the same or better but could also be worse.


Electrical conductivity varies widely with Automatic Transmission Fluids - we need something that doesn't impede the flow of electricity - rather hopefully improves it.

What surprised me the most with this testing so far - also similar reports on the on the USATrains Yahoo site, was the improvement in managing inclines


Knut 



True. Using III in a IV transmission can cause problems, but there are "friction" differences in the needs of the two gearboxes. All I know is our old Honda Odyssey is VERY picky about wanting Honda gearbox oil, but the old Toyotas, Mercedes, Volvos, Mitsubishis, everything else with a slushbox I have owned was happy with III...

A friend that works on older electronic equipment (IE, tube stuff, and gets paid DAMN well for doing it) says that a lot of penetrating oils (Kroil, PB Blaster, etc) are actually excellent elecrical part/contact cleaners as well.

But being penetrating oil, maybe not best for traction?

I have slipped in fallen in a puddle of Citroën LHM fluid before, so that is probably no good either, also why it is warned not to use ATF as an alternate for LHM (but more than a few cars got it including a CX I serviced with >400K miles on it without problems).


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

If anyone has access to Model Railroader Mag May 2011 issue discusses this very topic. The Puget Sound Model Railroad Engineers experimented with ATF on their layout in tacoma, wa. I have a feeling that's were all this information on the web is starting from, but just a thought. 
I don't have access to the article, but if anyone does it would be worth posting a copy, or PDF of it. 
Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, the primary purpose of the fluid in an automatic transmission is really twofold: to operate hydraulic circuits (like hydraulic pistons to move stuff) and to work in a torque converter, to transfer power through it. 

Slippery has a lot to do with the surfaces, and the sensitivity of various transmissions relates to the type of material in the internal clutches, which are bathed in the stuff. 

So what of course... 

Also, complaining about talking about other compounds? That is trying to give similar experiences with similar stuff. 

The primary "magic" is excluding air from oxidizing the metal... surely no one fails to comprehend this, since it's oxidation that affects conductivity. 

Another thing that if you did not know, then google: the fluids are not conductive, nor do they need to be. Electrical conduction between the rails and wheels takes place over very small areas at a time, and the pressure of the wheels on the rails allows that metal to metal contact. 

This is where people that do not understand how electricity flows when objects touch will lecture you that you cannot use oil in a ball bearing or there will be no conductivity between the inner and outer races. 

(this should also explain how oxidation can grossly affect conductivity, since the conduction takes place over very small areas)... 

I can elucidate further about how conductivity occurs at a molecular level, and how often the current density is enough to temporarily melt the metal at the conductive point... 

But what is the point of that? 

Try it yourself and see if it helps you... this is an endless debate in the HO community and other scales too... 

I've tried it and I saw the effects of retarding oxidation, but in my case it was outweighed by reduced traction and increased goop buildup. (brass track) 

Stainless steel develops no oxidation to speak of, so I know it does not help (and have verified by trying it). 

Regards, Greg


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Any railroader I have been in contact with does not believe in the practice of using anything EXCEPT maybe a cleaner that leaves little or NO residue, OR use of the LGB cleaning block or some of those green dish pads, I have seen a very fine sand paper used on drywall sanding sticks.

I find it difficult to even consider using anything that would cause, like Greg stated traction and or dirt/grunge problems.

BUT Paul Bussy who installs all those $300,000+ natural bridge layouts in a lot of places accross the counrty told the Laurentzen Gardens here in Omaha to use a lube ROUTINELY for conductivity, but they still had dead spots that we had to fix with clamps....his advice did not work.

Everything was gunked up and dirty.

So again I find the concept a bit unexceptable.

Bubba


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 28 Sep 2011 10:02 PM 
Another thing that if you did not know, then google: the fluids are not conductive.........Greg,

Do you mean fluids in general or AFT?
Doesn't really matter - according to these tests, Dexron III is conductive.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...tZWdAQ&usg=AFQjCNG2GCrWx2BLG2QPeIQDi1MhxyP5jw

Hope the link works.
Otherwise just google for Electric conductivity of Automatic Transmission Fluid.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Madstang on 28 Sep 2011 10:57 PM 
Any railroader I have been in contact with does not believe in the practice of using anything EXCEPT maybe a cleaner that leaves little or NO residue, OR use of the LGB cleaning block or some of those green dish pads, I have seen a very fine sand paper used on drywall sanding sticks.

I find it difficult to even consider using anything that would cause, like Greg stated traction and or dirt/grunge problems.

Well Bubba,

Until a week ago I would have agreed with you.
ATF to help runing electric trains?
Ridiculous I would have said - but only specifically to ATF.

LGB has recommended a few drops of a mixture of paraffin oil and vaseline oil for years to improve power pick up and eliminate sparking between rail and wheel, so that another fluid would do something similar is not that far fetched - I just didn't think it might be something as common as Dexron III.


Probably requires more testing but I have so far only heard positive things doing this. 


Knut


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Belief is not a substitute for fact, Bubba. Acting on the statements of others (even the exalted Greg) instead of observations and fact is -- at least -- short sighted.

I wouldn't use anything that leaves gunk and attracts dirt. So far, i've not noticed any of that. Try it, if it does not work, tell us. If it does work, tell us. Enlighten the bretheren.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

actually, if you read the pdf file from the link you provided, it is classified as medium-conductive, and about a value of 7,000.... read more of the document and you will see that liquids with this level of conductivity can accumulate static charge... 

compared to metal, it's not conductive... every thing exhibits some level of conductivity... it's the amount of conductivity... put your ohmmeter probes into a can of atf and you tell me how many ohms it is... then check a piece of metal, essentially zero ohms... 

you don't need to stoop to name calling... and bubba stated some observable facts if I am not mistaken, and so have I... 

Adding personal comments shows that you must feel your argument is not enough without making the personal comment to bolster it. 

Greg


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I know you're not talking to me, since I called no one a bad name. I also used no link. Everyone here is interested in the same thing -- information we can use to make our railroads run better. 

If anyone has evidence this stuff doesn't work, good. Let's hear it. 

I've done nothing except say "this works better than I expected." I suppose I should add "your mileage may vary."


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 27 Sep 2011 11:24 PM 
Funny this should come up here. It's been all over the USATrainsgregistry site. I've been using Dexron III ATF on a couple of layouts. It does all those things. I apply it very sparingly at a couple of locations, then run the locomotives around the layout 

It does improve conductivity (quick stalls are all but gone), doesn't appear to attract dirt or dust, and does improve traction. On one layout there's about an 8% grade that was a problem for light Bachmann engines. Now, even those engines can pull several cars up the hill. 

That layout is code 332 brass of various manufacturers and ages. I've also used it on a small loop at home. Even leaving town for a week, the loop started up quickly and smoothly. I did have to remove dried peach guts from the track, but the fluid seemed to improve conductivity even through that. 

I tried it out on about 40 feet of code 250 Al track and a Aristo Critter that hasn't run for a while. The Critter stuttered at first, then smoothed out. After it was running smooth, I put a track cleaning caboose of my own design on and ran the pair back and forth for about 20 minutes. 

So it appears to work well on brass and aluminum. Jury is still out on stainless steel and nickle silver, though. 
.........................................................................................................
Richard...Guess.. We've heard of it before, yr's back and have use it beside clipper oil on our Ho layout. We have been using WD40 due to the pine needles and pine sap on the brass rails.. Works fine and nothing sticks to them and we don't use it very often..

We noticed to that sure help on any rail joints when some of the grease gose away after time it help the electical conections to until you can get to it for new elect. grease. 

You know on some of our get-together, some guy bring over stuff to run and with out a little WD40 to the wheels somtimes just to get them going. 

We noticed over the last 5 or so yr's. using WD 40, we have not seen any rust on our rolling stock wheels either.

Usually WD40 goes away after a 10 or so min. with just a light spry on our track cleaning car pads, but we have over done it a few times and sometime trains can't get up the grade until tracks are wiped down. laf.

Hey.. they got a free wheel clean up tho.. and there trains ran better later on using track power...

Anyway we'll try the same thing with our track cleaning car and see what it can do with your idea for a few months. 
Always looking for something better.

Also, check and see if any ware/rust on wheels and rail ware. 
Tk's. for the inform.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 29 Sep 2011 12:17 AM 
Belief is not a substitute for fact, Bubba. Acting on the statements of others (even the exalted Greg) instead of observations and fact is -- at least -- short sighted.





I think I stated fact with the layout at the gardens...I stated that it didn't work, saw it first hand, not taking Gregs word, just agreeing with him as his words are correct! You must have missed that? 


Bubba


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think you can compare past experience with WD-40 or those other cleaners/oils mentioned, with that of ATF. It's a different animal. Greg can speculate and theorize until he's blue in the face but until you actually try it I don't think it's fair to say it will gunk up wheels etc. the way other oils will. I've used oils of various types all my life in heavy construction machinery, and there is no way I'd ever put WD40 or CRC on my track. I'd be tempted to try the ATF using the same method as I do with the LGB smoke fluid: I put some on a stiff sponge and wipe the track with it. That cleans the track and leaves it with that thin layer of paraffin which, as I noted above, seems to be in the ATF as well. 

Keith


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a little sidenote here in regards to WD40. Many, many years ago, when I first got into the toolmaker/die sinker trade, some apprentices got the "wild idea" to use WD40 on the stems of their dial indicators. They moved very nicely for a week or so. But then the WD40 would "gum-up" the works so badly in the inside of the indicator, that they became useless. Off to the tool repairman and a VERY stiff repair bill. I keep WD40 away from anything with gears!!!


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Exactly, Gary...been my experience too. Many of these so-called combination cleaners/lubricators are pretty aggressive on the cleaning, and light on the lubrication. I've seen tools/parts sprayed with them turn into rusted garbage unless real oil is applied after using them. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's hard to mess with this logic: 

Anything that leaves a film behind has also the ability for dirt/grime to stay in that film. There's no magic substance I have ever seen in 60 years that is smart enough to reject dirt when it is still a thin liquid film. 

We know that atf does not "dry out" like a solvent. 

Now, how much gets on the rails of course depends on how much of a film there is. 

The common denominator I have seen on EVERY experiment with a liquid that does not completely evaporate is that you need to periodically re-apply, and wipe off. With this constant maintenance, this will work. But putting it on one time, and never renewing it or wiping it clean, well, you have to show me that... I seen dozens of failed attempts. 

Read that last sentence carefully.... I'm not saying that putting something on the rails won't stop oxidation (indeed it can), it's just that there are other issues that come with doing it. 

Again, I tried it on several scales, HO, N, Z, and G... the negatives of re-applying and wiping off and the buildup on my wheels offset the improved conductivity (reduced oxidation). 

Please, try it for yourself, but it's no "magic bullet" for me. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The reality is that I don't need to try it because I don't have conductivity issues, and like you Greg, prefer to keep the track dry and free of anything that could attract dirt. I find the LGB smoke fluid on a hard sponge works well for cleaning off oil after running live steamers, prior to running DCC again, and that's where I'd be tempted to try the ATF to see if it makes any difference compared with the smoke fluid, since it's probably a whole lot cheaper. The other thing to consider is that all but one of my locomotives have sliders, whereas with yours Greg I suspect you don't have any, so any crud or buildup on your track would make more of a difference to your operation. 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Sep 2011 12:29 AM 

you don't need to stoop to name calling
Are you suggesting I did that?

Not sure who you mean by "you", but if you meant me - "name calling" was the furthest from my mind.


As to electrical conductivity of fluids - I was simply commenting on what I understood to be a blanket statement that no fluids conduct electricity.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

not you knut.... the person who used the adjective "exalted" and claimed that atf is conductive. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I went by the auto parts store today and picked up some dexron IV. We keep our trains in a 16 foot storage barn that connects to the mainline. I put some on the rails, then ran a track cleaning car over the dexron, pushed by an lgb 0-4-0 with a powered tender, (making it effectively an 0-8-0). It was pretty much a disaster--the loco got stuck in the middle of the storage barn. Wheels spinning in both directions, stuck. The dexron made the rails too slippery. 

I managed to get it out and had to spend quite a while cleaning the dexron off the rails. It's kind of what I expected would happen, only worse. Maybe I put too much on there? 

I could not see any improvement in conductivity, but it was a pretty short experiment that ended with a good deal of muttered cursing. At any rate, it's not an experiment I plan to repeat. 

Track cleaning has never been much of a problem for me. I usually just run a cleaning car with a scotchbrite pad on it. Sometimes I put alcohol on the cleaning pad. Track cleaning seems to vary a lot depending on where you live. I'll stick to dry cleaners


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks for the testing and posting the results. 

I would not have run the cleaning car at all - just two or three drops every 100 ft or so and then run a loco to distribute it. 
And you also used Dexron IV rather than Dexron III which I think was used in all the other tests that were done here and on the Yahoo site.. 

That may possibly explain the results you got. 

All in all most interesting!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did some more research. As far as I can tell the DEXRON IV is synthetic, has more detergent "ability" and also affects plastic and rubber parts differently than the DEXRON III. 

There were many automotive TSBs about not putting IV in transmissions made for III, where the seals could fail. 

I would think that the additives would have little impact on our rails, mostly the tenacity to stay and not evaporate should be the operative characteristics. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the differences between type III and type IV would make a difference in this application. 

Over the years, people have sworn by ATF, WD40, Wahl clipper oil (still very popular), smoke fluid, and other "mild solvent" types of fluids that do not completely evaporate, that's the commonality of these applications. 

A film MUST be left behind in order for it to block oxidation, thus there has to be something that can hold dust and dirt to SOME extent. 

And yes, no sliders for me, all taken off. Sliders will really help on brass rail... the constant scraping on the rails helps. Not needed on SS rail... By dumping the USAT traction tires, I get more pickup surfaces that allows me to get rid of the sliders. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

And yes, no sliders for me, all taken off. Sliders will really help on brass rail... the constant scraping on the rails helps. Not needed on SS rail... By dumping the USAT traction tires, I get more pickup surfaces that allows me to get rid of the sliders. 

I love sliders....with all the ants using my rails as a high speed travel corridor, without them my wheels would grow by 1/4" in diameter per day with built up guts! 

When I was reading those MSDS sheets on the III vs IV, I got the impression the III had the zinc additive but the IV didn't...also didn't mention the paraffin in the IV. 

Keith


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## Michael W (Oct 10, 2012)

All atfs are either sythetic or siemisythetic, however they are designed to keep the box lubricted and carry dirt out of the gearbox into the gearbox filter system, hence it will not attract dirt or gunk. The thing i am more concerned about is the ties of the track, some atfs do not like certain plastics. 
Dexron 3 is just a trade name for a specific oil if you go to your local oil supply shop or truck shop they can give you their equivalent. But beware the price some atfs can easily be in excess of $300 for 20 l.
Kind regards
Michael


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just because the detergents keep the dirt in suspension does not mean there is no dirt. There certainly is no filter on your tracks constantly removing dust and dirt from them!! 

Check your logic there. 

Greg


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## Michael W (Oct 10, 2012)

Mhh my apologies, I belive i did not express this very clearly.
I understood the concern was that using atf as trackcleaner would attract more dirt to the track than what was already there. 
As pointed out earlier the atf will not impact the conductivity of the track. However it keeps the dirt suspended, i.e. The dirt does not bond with the track - hence it becomes easier to clean.
My concern was mainly the reaction of the atf with various plastic parts of the tracks locos and cars, also atfs are rather unhealthy substances.
Anyhow my apologies for the confusion
So long michael


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Michael you are correct. I use it on my indoor layout about once a year. Sure makes it easy to remove the black gunk.


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## Cosmos (Apr 16, 2011)

I tried Dextron III and the results that came about were nothing like what I was expecting, not even in the same league. 

First the background. 
NOS 1998 Aristocraft Sesame Street Redball Express train with the included circle of brass Aristocraft track. 
My home built 18v 10a switching power supply pulse width modulation track power transformer. 
When I pulled the track out of the box it was FILTHY! The train barely ran. I cleaned the track and train wheels with my usual gun cleaner/patches until the track sparkled and the patches stopped pulling up dirt. The train now ran well, and I could get the engine to crawl almost the entire loop, though it had a few problem spots. I do mean craw, when I would turn the power up just a little bit more the train ran flawlessly at a nice slow speed. 

What I used: Dextron III ATF 
How I applied: Q-tip dipped in the ATF run across the rails on two curved sections of track on opposite sides of the loop. 
What happened: Nothing. I didn’t notice a difference at all. I ran the train around the loop probably 30-40 times and there was a nice thin coat all the way around the track. The track did seem to shine up but the train didn’t seem to change the way it ran. Then I touched the track and my hand turned completely black and the rail was the cleanest brass I have ever seen. I wiped down the entire loop with my second favorite wipe (chlorine free baby wipes) and I turned 3 of them BLACK before the 4th started to look clean. The train now crawls at the slowest speeds all the way around the track. 

My impressions: Dextron III ATF makes a decent track cleaner, and that makes sense to me as ATF is a solvent. I don’t think I would put it on a track and leave it on, however I would have no problem putting it on a track, letting it sit, and follow up by wiping it off.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Back to the original comments, can work as a mild solvent, will retard oxidation, but will require cleaning off completely and re-applying. 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I remember from my HO days using a product called "Rail Zip," which I was told at the time was essentially automatic transmission fluid. (I haven't a clue whether that's true, it's just what I was told.) I used it with success on my indoor railroad, but having tried no other products besides simple routine cleaning with a Bright Boy, I can't say whether it's "better" than any of the alternatives. In any case, I just did a Google search to see whether this product was still available, and it turned up a series of nearly identical discussions on various small scale forums about what's "best," and what causes and doesn't cause gunk to build up on the wheels. After leafing through those threads, there seems to be no clear consensus in those discussions, either. Some swear by it, others hate it. About the only consistent thing in any of the discussions seems to be "get rid of the plastic wheels!"  

Later, 

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin I run metal wheels on all my rolling stock and still wind up with gunk on the rails over time. I think the electrical arcing is probably the problem. The good news is it doesn't happen with my battery powered stuff.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think the electrical arcing is probably the problem. 
Hmm, I just finished setting up our Christmas train (tinplate Lionel). There's so much arcing with that it looks like one of those souped up cars with the blue neon underneath! Maybe I'll squirt some transmission fluid on a rag and wipe the rails to see what happens. 

The good news is it doesn't happen with my battery powered stuff. 
I wasn't going to mention that.  

Later, 

K


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

It does improve conductivity (quick stalls are all but gone), doesn't appear to attract dirt or dust, and does improve traction. On one layout there's about an 8% grade that was a problem for light Bachmann engines. Now, even those engines can pull several cars up the hill. 


My..maybe the 1:1 railroads should stop using sand and switch to ATF??!!


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Our club has set up its modules at a Nursery in Loomis, CA. About once a week, I apply Dexron III on about three inches of rail and just run it. We had a speeder stalling a lot, so I squirted some ATF on the wheels and let it go. Ran around the layout several times before it caught up with the train that was also running on that track. 

Your mileage may vary. But it IS cheap, and it DOES seem to work. 

Also true that it seems to improve traction on hills.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I used Rail Zip on HO and N layouts, ( looks like ATF ) and it did wonders for train running.

Don


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## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Great info on the ATF. I wonder how it works in the long run- over a period of weeks or months. I don't run trains over the winter (I live in Buffalo and am allergic to snow- lol). When I open the RR in the spring, the tracks are always real grungy and take some serious cleaning. Maybe a coat of ATF before winter could make spring cleaning a bit easier??? Any thoughts? 


-Kevin.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

On my HO layout I have been using Hair Clipper Oil (Wahl, etc.) for decades with excellent results. Yes, a black crud does have a tendancy to build up on wheels and a bit on the rails but it's a small price to pay for trouble free running. 
I assume that ATF works in similar manner and would be much cheaper to apply to a Garden Railway. 
Just my 2 cents worth. 

Wayne 

Knackered Valley Railroad 
Long Island, NY


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## Cosmos (Apr 16, 2011)

Posted By dieseldude on 06 Dec 2012 08:27 AM 
Great info on the ATF. I wonder how it works in the long run- over a period of weeks or months. I don't run trains over the winter (I live in Buffalo and am allergic to snow- lol). When I open the RR in the spring, the tracks are always real grungy and take some serious cleaning. Maybe a coat of ATF before winter could make spring cleaning a bit easier??? Any thoughts? 


-Kevin. 
I'm sure it would be a great thing to put on your track over the winter to make things easier to clean come spring.


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## Cosmos (Apr 16, 2011)

Posted By backyardRR on 06 Dec 2012 08:40 AM 
On my HO layout I have been using Hair Clipper Oil (Wahl, etc.) for decades with excellent results. Yes, a black crud does have a tendancy to build up on wheels and a bit on the rails but it's a small price to pay for trouble free running. 
I assume that ATF works in similar manner and would be much cheaper to apply to a Garden Railway. 
Just my 2 cents worth. 

Wayne 

Knackered Valley Railroad 
Long Island, NY 
What is your track made out of? Brass? Stainless? Tinplate? Steel? Soemthing else? What do you consider trouble free running? What exactly are the benefits of using ATF? Have you assessed what the problems are before applying ATF? Is it dirt? Corosion? Poor connectivity between sections?

Thanks! Just curious as to what ATF is actually helping you with. 

Also, anyone can answer these questions! We are all here to learn.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I have not used ATF, either on my HO layout (Atlas nickle silver flex track) or my garden raiilway (Aristo Craft brass). 
The use of clipper oil for small scale trains has been discussed in the past in the MRR press. I would think that any of these substances aid in wheel to rail conductivity. I apply it when I start to see loco hesitation or stalling. I guess it is part laziness on my part but it sure beats spending an hour with an abrasive pad plus cleaning the loco wheels with a Kadee driver cleaner. Maybe the battery and live steam guys have the right idea ;}


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Waddaya mean maybe?


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I've written about this before on this forum and others. Dexron III ATF conducts electricity, as it's needed somehow in automatic transmissions. It has solvents and compounds to keep contaminants in solution to keep transmission fluid clear(ish). It also has something that makes it not too slippery, or else it wouldn't make an automatic transmission work. 

On my layout, and our club layouts, I've put a small amount on the top of each rail (perhaps 3 o 6 inches), and let the engine spread it around the track. It seems to improve conductivity, loosen crud (which could be picked up by a track cleaning car), and seems to improve traction on gradess. 

Your mileage may vary. I've used it on aluminum, brass, and stainless steel.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

A lot depends on quanitity. I have AMS track that I "treated" with Bachmann conductive oil 5 years ago and never cleaned. Trains run perfectly, and no gunk. You have to use a very very small amount. On my old HO layout, I used Wahl Clipper Oil. I had about 90' of main line and one drop on each rail lasted a year. 

As always, too much of a good thing isn't necessarily better. 

Not sure if ATF is or is not conductive, but some liquids are. Not because of the liquid but because of what may be suspended in it. 

Robert


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I tried dextron on my rr and it had no good effects, only bad. It dramatically reduced traction on grades and it left a slippery gunk that took a while to clean off. I saw no change in conductivity. Other report different results, so maybe I used too much. I'm not going to try it agan though.


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

Years ago, an old fella I worked with told me used car dealers detailed the clunkers with ATF to make the paint look better than it was. The downside of course was it drew dirt and dust. But it usually got the car off the lot. 

Fil


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And ATF used to detail rubber parts that were not formulated to work with ATF often eroded the rubber... AFTER the guy bought the car with the nice shiny hoses... 

Also brake fluid was used to achieve the same detailing... 

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By Dick Friedman on 28 Sep 2011 11:22 AM 
Not to be combative, but the *primary* purpose of ATF is to transfer power from an engine to a differential. It can't be slippery or it won't work. Fluid drives (which is what an automatic transmission is) require that the powered side transmit force to the unpowered side. 

All this chit chat is nice, but not informative. Try it and see if it works for you. I've only used Dexron III on brass and aluminum. I'd be very interested in hearing if it works as well on stainless or nickel silver.



Actually ATF is a type of hydraulic fluid that is designed to lubricate, dissipate heat and have anti foaming qualities.
I learned it was OK to use ATF in tractor hydraulics but not to use hydraulic fluid in an automatic transmission as ATF has a much higher heat rating. 
I'm not sure why it could assist in traction, maybe because it has dynamic friction qualities. Synthetic ATF is less viscous so I guess that would be a better choice for track. 

Andrew


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## Cosmos (Apr 16, 2011)

Garratt said:


> Posted By Dick Friedman on 28 Sep 2011 11:22 AM
> Not to be combative, but the *primary* purpose of ATF is to transfer power from an engine to a differential. It can't be slippery or it won't work. Fluid drives (which is what an automatic transmission is) require that the powered side transmit force to the unpowered side.
> 
> All this chit chat is nice, but not informative. Try it and see if it works for you. I've only used Dexron III on brass and aluminum. I'd be very interested in hearing if it works as well on stainless or nickel silver.
> ...


I use John Deere hydraulic fluid in my all my automatic transmissions. I've noticed better/earlier torque convertor lockup and the fluid tends to last longer than DEXIII. I have put it in everything from 100hp Honda's to 1800hp drag racing cars. I don't know that I would trust ATF on something that runs wet brakes ... but hydraulic fluid is meant to work with it.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

The first industrial torque converters (Twin Disc Rockford, IL.) used in heavy equipment (Caterpillar Crawlers, Manitowoc Cranes etc.) used diesel fuel for the operating fluid straight from the machines fuel tank. So why don't you guys spray diesel fuel all over your layout and see how that works.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I've was out of track power(bad Aristo wheels) till I got my first MTH locomotive. I have SSVR code 250 NS track. I've found cleaning track is not necessary(except after live steam runs!), guess it's the sliders and better wheels. I paint the sliders black so they hardly show up. I know USA/LGB has the sliders, but I don't have any of their engines, so not sure how they do.


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## bmwr71 (Jan 30, 2010)

Thinking about it, the clutch packs in an automatic transmission are in the fluid I believe.

Doug


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's an example of a good thread revived for no positive benefit. (Chuck, I am not pointing at you, in fact I love your comment).

Revived 3 years later to tell us something that has nothing to do with the thread.

This subject of putting something on the rails always comes up, and graphite, ATF, WD-40, CRC32, you name it.

Eventually, you wind up with extra maintenance to clean the rails and wheels of what you have added, and it's my opinion that the extra maintenance could just have been keeping the rails clean in the first place.

Greg


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Here's an example of a good thread revived for no positive benefit. (Chuck, I am not pointing at you, in fact I love your comment).
> 
> Revived 3 years later to tell us something that has nothing to do with the thread.
> 
> ...


... And your commentary is any better than anyone else's?


I haven't tried ATF yet but I want to...
In N scale I have used Rail Zip before and it seems to work ok on the nickel silver rails.
When I used it I left it on for a couple days, then went back with a Atlas track cleaner to clean up any dust that accumulated over those days. I use the soft pad and water with a bit of dish detergent and sent it down the rails. 
Compared to sections I didn't use rail zip on, I had to clean more frequently... 
So at least on N/S track it works well enough. 

As for my Bmann Steel track (oh the horror) it doesn't work well at all, but I'm assuming its because Rail Zip is designed for N/S as it works chemically to bond with the rails...
As for brass track, I don't know yet... I'll let you know when I do test Rail Zip though.


As for cleaning track everytime before you run trains...


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

If ATF was good for traction, when I spill it on the floor it shouldn't be slippery. 

Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't know why you made that personal commentary nscaler, I never said my commentary is better than everyone else's although clearly my courtesy is better than yours.. 

What I was saying is that this is an old thread, worked out a while ago, and then someone talks about the type of ATF they use in their car... nothing to do with trains, and no reason to revive a years old thread.

by the way, you ran your n scale out doors? sounds like your comments are the least relevant on this thread.


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I don't know why you made that personal commentary nscaler, I never said my commentary is better than everyone else's although clearly my courtesy is better than yours..
> 
> What I was saying is that this is an old thread, worked out a while ago, and then someone talks about the type of ATF they use in their car... nothing to do with trains, and no reason to revive a years old thread.
> 
> by the way, you ran your n scale out doors? sounds like your comments are the least relevant on this thread.


Mine is relevant regardless of scale, last I checked Nickel Silver rail is produced in G scale, and well it just so happens that someone mentioned Rail Zip previously in this thread as well. 
I also mentioned my G scale track was Steel, Bmann stuff... 
Also what's wrong with bringing up old threads if they are useful to people today? 
There is nothing wrong it in alot of peoples eyes but yours I guess... 
Also learn to chill out, this is a forum, you know the place where people go to talk with one another, it's not a sin if it drifts a bit it happens get over it, it came back to train talk didn't it?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Choo choo!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The oxides on nickle are conductive, why bother?
John


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## nscaler711 (Dec 4, 2015)

Totalwrecker said:


> The oxides on nickle are conductive, why bother?
> John


Sure on Nickel, but silver still oxidizes, that's why if you do nothing with your N/S track it will turn flat colored after a while. That and so you don't have to clean your track so often. 
It's worked for me, I see the results... Most i have to clean now are wheels, and once in a while the track.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Playing games with me won't work.

1. You based your comment on nickel silver rail outdoors. Clearly you are inexperienced, otherwise you would know not only that nickle silver is relatively rare outside compared to brass and aluminum and even stainless steel.

2. Again your experience in N scale was clearly INDOORS, and there is a world of difference in corrosion, oxidation and weather related issues on track outdoors. Again, you contest my experience with your indoors experience on N scale.

3. I complained about resurrecting and old thread *AND *not even on topic... the topic is ATF on the rails, and the person who resurrected it commented on what brand he used in his vehicles. A very poor reason to resurrect it.

4. Your comment is NOT relevant regardless of scale, there are different issues inside and out, and different issues that relate to the physical size of the components, and temperature variations that only happen outside.

If this stuff was easy and simple, it would already be figured out.

Lastly your personal comment about me was uncalled for, and that what brought me out blazing. 

Greg




nscaler711 said:


> Mine is relevant regardless of scale, last I checked Nickel Silver rail is produced in G scale, and well it just so happens that someone mentioned Rail Zip previously in this thread as well.
> I also mentioned my G scale track was Steel, Bmann stuff...
> Also what's wrong with bringing up old threads if they are useful to people today?
> There is nothing wrong it in alot of peoples eyes but yours I guess...
> Also learn to chill out, this is a forum, you know the place where people go to talk with one another, it's not a sin if it drifts a bit it happens get over it, it came back to train talk didn't it?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

It is called nickel/silver, but I think that it is an alloy of nickel, copper, and a little zinc. No silver. It is also called German silver.

Chuck


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And theoretically, the oxide of nickel silver is conductive, but I've seen brands outside that turn black after a while. I've even seen some that has corroded or kind of eroded.

While it is popular in indoor smaller scales, I think that people have used it outside because of it's color, being closer in appearance to steel, rather than the yellow brown of brass.

My experience is that it is not been significantly less maintenance than brass for powered track.

Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Every time I see this thread I think it a wonder why anybody would put "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" on their track.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The application of something that clings to the rails and inhibits oxygen from oxidizing the rails has been a subject of controversy as long as I can remember, which was for me: 1955 tinplate, 1963 HO, 1967 N scale, 1985 G scale, 1990 Z scale.

Every time someone comes up with a magical coating/liquid, my experience has been that I still have to remove and reapply periodically, and it's just as much or more work than just keeping stuff clean.

And don't get me started on what adding anything to the rails does to traction. It's NEVER good.

Greg


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I read in another forum that Rail Zap was analyzed and it was found that it's formula closely resembled ATF but it also left a residue when it eventually dried out. 
The general consensus seems that it is best to have clean smooth rails to avoid build up of other deposits that impede current flow. 

Andrew


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

None of the oil/solvent based soutions do anything but block oxygen from oxidizing the rail surface.

Thus, it's clear they must leave something behind. Normally this has to attract or at least retain dust or dirt. Now you have something that can coat the rails and wheels.

For a while Aristo recommended CRC 2-26 on the rails... well, it did actually help power pickup after a few laps, but reduced traction to zero, and then it accumulated dirt and I had black goo everywhere... 

Greg


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This post may seem disjointed. Because it is. I have had mixed results with rail improving fluids. ( this was added after all the following comments).



Years ago, I was given some Rail-Zip to test on my layout. I followed the directions. My layout had a grade. My train that usually had a easy trip around the loop, couldn't make the grade. WHEEL SLIP ruined the trip. I now use it very sparingly. Occasionally, I'll put a couple of drops on each rail at the top of the grade. I'm not sure why, but I do. 

Occasionally, I have a hiccup at a rail joiner. A drop of zip in the joiner seems to help.

That is all I can contribute. It helps, sometimes.

Chuck

I also have occasionally used a drop of Zip on the back of drive wheels with graphite contacts for electrical pickup. 

In very small amounts it seems to help.

I've never had a buildup. Someone once said (Greg?) that conducting lubricants are best in an exceedingly thin film. I think that a couple of drops on a 90' loop would constitute a thin film when spread out by the wheels of the train.

The bottom line is that there are times it seems to help. I rarely use it, but when there is a problem I can't resolve I use a couple of drops and the problem seems to go away. It is not my first choice, but many times it turns out to be my last choice.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

nscaler711 said:


> Sure on Nickel, but silver still oxidizes, that's why if you do nothing with your N/S track it will turn flat colored after a while. That and so you don't have to clean your track so often.
> It's worked for me, I see the results... Most i have to clean now are wheels, and once in a while the track.



I'm a retired silver smith, the Sterling Silver kind.
There is No silver in Nickle silver, that is a german trade name for nickle.

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Well said John. Chemistry beats semantics, every time.

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Totalwrecker said:


> I'm a retired silver smith, the Sterling Silver kind.
> There is No silver in Nickle silver, that is a german trade name for nickle.
> John


John, It's spelled 'nickel'. I often make the same mistake. 

So many people I have told that the ring pulls they collect are not made of titanium. It's an urban myth. They absolutely refuse to believe me though. Anyway, back to trains...

Andrew


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Garrat,
Thanks, 
It looks silvery when burnished to a polish.... compared to silver it has a yellow tint.
John


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