# Battery Packs



## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Need a reasonable place to buy battery packs, and chargers.
Need something that will fit into a USA Trains GP-9 . 

Thanks
Don


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I got mine at all-battery.com 
I got Tony W.s favorite Tenergy cells, Li-ion 14.8v 
John


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

All-Battery.com Lithium-Ions and chargers for me.


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## bvdrr (Jan 3, 2008)

Mike from Kidmans Tree Farm got me all set up on both.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at All Battery and found this one,
31892-Tenergy-18650-Li-ion-1x450.jpg
Will this work ok in a GP-9?
The charge they show is that a pretty good one, or should I invest into something better?

Thanks
Don


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

A GP9 should have plenty of room for any type of battery. I mount my batteries on the underside of the roof, and then seal around the edges with silicone so that I can run in the rain/snow without having to worry about the electronics getting wet. I use the batteries to cover the holes underneath the fans. That said the GP series from USA trains all have enough room to mount batteries, electronics, sound, etc in the long hood without having to worry about space. 

Craig


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Don, Did you ask around at Marty's.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Don, 

I have several battery-packs that fit into a GP9 but the most common one the the CR-1700B 18.5V @ 2800mah Lithium-ion. Here's a link to our website: http://cordlessrenovations.com/?page_id=1276 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

But Rick, I have a good sale on them.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

I forgot Mike, 

Yes, please visit Reindeer Pass Railroad for a great deals on all Cordless Renovations Battery-Packs. Link: http://www.reindeerpass.com/ 

Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 
RCS America


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want NiMh batteries, a 3 x 4 brick of 4/3FAUX cells work great. I will give you 14.4V at 4500MAH and they fit in a USA locomotive very well. In may cases, I put 2 of them in each engine.


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## dpotp (May 25, 2011)

What is the max battery voltage for an Aristo cabbose with smoke and lights?


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I need to stop going to Marty's in September get to many ideas.

Don


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

dpotp, why not start yoiur own thread about the aristo caboose rather than hijack a completely unrelated thread? 

I can give you the answer, but not going to derail a thread. 

Greg


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Take it from someone with eperience, don't sqrimp on the voltage. At a minimum, buy an 18.5 volt battery. If it were me, I'd got for a 22 or 24 volt myself. Sure, there are some that will say your loco doesn't need to go so fast, but that is what the speed controller is for. Let's face it, 14.8 volts is fine for a locomotive with 1 motor. But the GP9 has 2 or even 4 motors such as my Dash 9, needs more voltage. Especially when you add a sound card and or smoke unit. I was talked into a 14.8 V battery last year. The Dash 9 didn't have enough power to spin it's wheels when pulling too many cars up a steep grade. So I bought an 18.5 v battery. Yes, it's better but the performance is still far below what it had when operating off my 10 amp 22 V MRC G Power Pack. 

Just like with cars, more is always better.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to help a bit here... the Aristo 3 axle blocks run a LOT slower than many other locos at the same voltage. 

Sometimes you will get a big difference of opinion, because one guy has a USAT loco (that think they are bullet trains in Japan) and the other guy is Randy or me, when I ran my Aristo E8's and their top speed was 62 scale miles per hour. 

In this case, forewarned is forearmed... unless you run really slow switching speeds, or locos that only ran 35-45 in real life, take Randy's advice. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

As well as the brand of locos having different requirements, what battery voltage is required also depends on how you wire the loco. 
If for example, you are converting an LGB loco with on board voltage dropping for lights and smoke when stationary and you are feeding the ESC output directly to what were the track picks, you would need 18 - 22 volts to get a decent speed top speed as the first six volts are wasted. 
If you were feeding the ESC output direct to the LGB loco motor and bypassing those electronics, you will only need 14 or so volts. 
Too much voltage is a waste.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually with PWM, it adapts to different input voltages well. 

I have to think about efficiency, but it's clear that higher voltage will give lower starting speeds in the extreme... whether that is of practical value needs to be checked... 

Not sure there is any "waste".... 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Waste, as in the extra heat generated by the on board voltage regulators dropping a higher voltage to 5 volts. 
Waste, as in excess voltage needlessly taking up more installation space for a given cell type.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if the esc uses a switching regulator to provide 5 volts for the micro, then there is no waste. (which the more modern designs do)

Excess voltage is wrong again... running 10 volts at 10% duty cycle is about the same as running 20 volts at 5% duty cycle... no waste... it's WATTS that move locomotives, not volts alone or amps alone. 

You could run 10 volts 5 amp hours or 20 volts 2.5 amp hours, same watts. 

You may not NEED the higher voltage (but there's the low speed thing again, higher voltage gives better results), but you don't WASTE anything. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Except space and voltage (heat) with a non switching regulator. Believe me a TO220 pack 7805 can get real hot when regulating down from 20 volts compared to 14.4 volts. Especially if it is driving a relay for reverse direction. 
So I guess we are both correct again. .....and yes I know my stuff is not the most modern design, but it does work reliably.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, I believe you, but again, this is a design to be avoided in modern times... switching regulators are more efficient, low cost, smaller and do not require heat sinks. 

Aristo, QSI, Zimo, ESU, Massoth all use switching regulators for the microprocessor supply. 

Also avoiding relays saves cost, uses lower current, etc.... most people are using FETs now. 

Not banging on your design, just reacting to the "blanket" comment of wasted voltage. 

Also, I would hope the largest energy consumer is the motor and not the relay ha ha! 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

50 - 100 ma for the relay coil and only in reverse.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Greg - Why don't you just send us your power supply and motor driver design schematics, BOMs with itemized cost comparisons to this "old 'school" electronics, so that we may step into the "modern day". You think I haven't looked at this stuff? There are design tradeoffs everywhere you look. And I agree with Tony on the waste arguement. But then, I'm probably "old school". Works for me !


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't know where the motor driver issue came from, all the motor driver designs I have seen are fine. The contention is that there is no voltage "waste" with the current motor driver circuits and higher voltage. 

At least Tony did not continue to contend that. Do you? 

The contention was series regulators vs. switching mode regulators for other voltages needed by the "decoder". 

The regulator IC's and circuitry are a dime a dozen, and you say you have already looked at it.... so why are you "challenging" me with sending you circuits or BOMs? 

Why not stick to facts? Do you have a power "waste" issue with your hardware? Did you find that a switching regulator IC and supporting circuitry was too expensive? 

All you seem to be saying to your customers reading this thread is that your hardware has some limitations in efficiency or limitations in voltages it should use. 

It's ok, but trying to thrash me will probably only draw attention in areas you don't want. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
I did not contend that there were wastage issues with the motor driver circuit. 
I contended, and still do, that the wastage issue is to do with the voltage regulator and the amount of space consumed by excess quantities of batteries. 

Whilst I understand that switching regulators might be more efficient than serial regulators I know of none that have the oomph to power the actual and potential current demands of my ESC's that also have the capability of powering and controlling servos. So I have to use a D2-PAK SMD device. They take up less space than a switchable regulator with the associated extra circuitry to handle the sorts of loads I can have.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, my second sentence says exactly that, that you did not contend issues with motor drivers... I thought pretty clearly... 

I have no issues with you. But Del is playing a game with me about bill of materials, and circuit diagrams. 

Switching regulators come in all sizes and you can add components to huge amperage... everything you see nowadays, like laptop supplies, chargers for the better consumer electronics, etc. is using a switching regulator. 

Not trying to start any problems with you Tony, but other than servos, and the micro itself, is there anything else needing a regulated supply. 

What voltage(s) are you supplying, just 5 volts, or others? 

I don't know if it would be an advantage to your design, but they will make less heat, waste virtually nothing, and are compact when you consider heat sinks as part of the volume. 

What amount of current do you need? 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

That isn't how I read it. 

The amount of current my stuff requires depends on what may need to be powered for a particular installation. Apart from overheads such as the IC's and servos. I quite often need a 5 volt supply for lights. I do a fair number of LGB locos and it is often easier, and less expensive, to tap the 5 volt supply on the decoder pcb than to provide another 5 volt reg. 
The bottom line is a serial voltage regulator will get hotter dropping 20 volts down to 5 volts than one dropping 14.4 volts down to 5 volts. That heat is "wasted" voltage. 

So in effect we are both right, depending on the situation.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry Tony... I thought it was clear, and re-reading it, it still seems clear, besides the fact that you actually did not argue the ages old PWM misunderstanding many people have.

Anyway, I understood and still understand the waste a series regulator has.

So if you had a switching 5 volt regulator circuit that cost the same or less than your 5v series regulator with the same current output, then you would be happy, or it would not really affect your sales or product?

(still would like to know how many amps you need, since you stated as one of your reasons to keep the series regulator is because a switching one of equal capability would be larger. So I want to know that capability. Alternatively, give me the part number of the regulator you are using and I'll figure it out)

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I use an SMD D2-PAK # MC7805CD2T as sometimes the load will get close to 1 amp. 
Within reason cost is not really a factor, but mounting parts can be and space is of course a problem.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't know if this is a dead subject yet, but I would like to chime in on this. I have to agree with Tony and Del on the aspects of using the Linear Regulators over the Switching regulators. I have designed and build a Power Distribuition Board for Robot builders to meet the needs of the various power requirements they have. My board has 5V 6V 9V and 12V ouputs with a option of 3.3V to power Micro processors. I use Linear Regulators do to the cost and the amperage output and the components required. Granted the Switching regulators are more efficent than the Linear regulators, but the extra parts needed for switching regulators and the cost of those regulators was a major factor in using the Linear regulators. 

Linear Regulators cost about .50 each and require only two caps to have a regulated output. Switching Regulators on the other hand are about $5.50 each, plus require one or two Inductors, 3 or 4 caps and one to two resistors depending on the circuit. All together you are looking at a circuit that costs close to $8.00 compaired to one that cost less that a $1.00. When you are trying to minimize the cost as well as the size of a product for use in Model trains where space is tight, you want to go with the least amount of parts. 

Greg; If you can actually build a switching regulator circuit that uses all the associated components for the same price as a Linear regulator circuit, I would like to talk to you about how you can do that. I have been building my Power boards for 10 years now and have sold over 500 of them and I still have not been able to get the cost low enought to switch from Linear regulators to Switching ones and keep the cost of my product at the $50.00 range. My board has 7 power outputs so you can see thst just for the switching regulator circuits I would be looking at $56.00 no including the cost of the connectors, LED's Jumpers and circuit board itself. My cost alone would be over $70.00 per board and for me to make a profit I would have to sell it for $90.00 to $100.00 a board, which I consider way too high. 


Dan S. 
Colorado & Rio Grand Southern 
http://danshobbies.webstarts.com/index.html


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. You can make switching power supplies cheaper than linear nowadays. For proof, look at the charger for your new phone, then look at one from 10 years ago. 
2. There is a goal in maximizing run time you seem to have overlooked, a few more cents for a regulator once is easily worth the more extended run times. 
3. What quantity are you buying your parts in? If you have sold 500 in 10 years, then that would be 50 a year, so you are not buying in large quantities like a production product. 
4. your example of 7 power outputs is not germane to the application here, a single output regulator. 

So, I'm sure for your quantities and 7 outputs you have found the best cost... but again it's not following the priorities and objectives of the regulators talked about here. 

Greg


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

Greg: I get where your coming from and beleive me if I could get a switching Regulator with associated components for the same price that I pay for the Linear ones, I would jump at the chance. The guys that I build these boards for have been asking me to do one that will operate off 24V so they could use it with the ESC that use for thier Drive motors that can consume up to 30amps of power. Granted that is far and above what we need for our trains, but the application is still the same in that in order for them to be able to use 24V and still drop it down to 5 volts for other associated electronics large heatsinks would be required to take care of the heat buildup from such a large drop in power. 

I currently only offer these board in 12V versions and have no problems with heat build up going from 12V to 9, 6, 5 or 3.3V without using heatsinks on the Linear Regulators. The Regulators I use are reated at 1.5 amps max output, which is fine for what the board is used for right now. I have seen circuits where I can up the ampeage output using a transistor and a couple of other parts to get it up to whatever the source amperage is. I use FET's when I build H-Bridge ESC's so I don't have to use Relays like Aristocraft does to switch directions. I use the PWM that comes out the the Microprocessor to drive a SN754410NE motor controller chip, and if I want to drive higher amps then I add FET's 

True I do not build as many boards as what is used in cell Phones and laptops, so my cost is much higher to get the parts as I only order qty's of 500 parts at a time for each of the different voltages. If I was building them in the 100,000 or more then, yeah the cost of the parts would be considerably lower, but only companies like Bachmann can do that. Most of the Companies that provide Model Train products are generally small mom and pop companies that make small runs of products to meet the demand of the market and as a result the cost of thier parts will be higher than some company like Bachmann or Aristocraft. I think that the Electronic Suppliers in the model Train industry do a very good job trying to keep thier costs down to a reasonable level and still make a profit and if that means that have to use less efficient parts to achive that, then that is what they need to do until the time at which the parts become cheap enough for them to use them and not have to make a huge price increase. 

If I was making something just for my own use and not selling it to someone else and didn't have to worry about making a profit, I would spend the extra 5 or 6 dollars and use the Switching regulators, but it all boils down to cost of making a product for the market you have in the quantities that the market ditactes and still make a profit, so sometimes less effiicient designs are the only way to do that. 

Sorry about this long posting, just wanted let you know that I see both sides of the issue and I have to agree with you as well as Del and Tony and I see why they do things the way they do them. 

Dan S.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just out of curiousity, are you using TO-220 case, and how much current are you passing to not need heat sinks? I guess if no heat sinks, only about 1/2 amp or so... 

I was more thinking you were running them closer to capacity... big advantage on switchers is less heat of course, no heat sinks... 

I understand where you are coming from, but if I was running battery and had to step 18v down to 5, I'd not want to waste the 13 volts as heat, but spend a few more bucks and get a switcher with 90% efficiency... again, run time for my batteries...

Regards, Greg 

p.s. love the long post, the more information / explanation the better


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04 Jan 2013 09:22 PM 
SNIP


I understand where you are coming from, but if I was running battery and had to step 18v down to 5, I'd not want to waste the 13 volts as heat, but spend a few more bucks and get a switcher with 90% efficiency... again, run time for my batteries...


Regards, Greg 

p.s. love the long post, the more information / explanation the better


Hello Greg. The implication you make is that if the ESC is using a Linear voltage regulator the run time will be reduced because of the wasted battery consumption relative to what it would be if a switch mode regulator was being used.
I would like to know by how much that reduction in run time would be. In theory would be good enough for this purpose.

I am no good at Math and you are so, if I provide you with the factors involved, would you kindly take the time and calculate what that run time reduction would be, and tell us please.

Battery capacity = 2,000 mah.

Nominal battery voltage = 14 volts.

Current draw of loco all up is, say = 1 amp 

5 volt logic overhead is = 100 mah max.


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## Dansgscale (Jan 9, 2010)

Greg : the boards I make , I use Voltage regulators with the Highest Amperage I can find, but most of the time they are 1 or 1.5 amps, but now and then I find some that have a max output of 3amps. The devices the board powers vary and it is hard to say how much amperage is actually being used as no one has measured it and told me. The devices though I would guess typically would draw in the 300ma to 500ma each. So I have said in the instruction sheet that they can attach as many devices they want as long as they stay below the 1 amp max for each regulator. The Batteries that they are using are 12V Gel Cell batteries with 7Ah, 8Ah, 12Ah and 18Ah power ratings. The traces on my board can only handle 5 amps continous power before they are toast, but with the safety devices on the board that does not happen ( Reverse Votage Diode and Resetable Fuse). The devices that they are using are lighting modules, Sound systems, small amplifiers and samll 12V Pitmann type motors and servos. Nothing that would require a lot of amperage, and that is why I don't have the heating problem that I would have if the board was also used to power the 12V or 24 Volt drive motors that are used to drive a 100 to 250 pound robot. If I had a Switching regulator circuit design that I could use that cost the same as what I can make for the Linear ones, I would gladly incorporate it as to allow the users to also power thier drive motors as well as use 24V power systems. 

If you would like to see phots of these boards and the instructions, click here. http://danshobbies.webstarts.com/products.html?r=20130005181602 

Dan S. 
Colorado & Rio Grande Southern


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