# Water Towers: How'd they keep 'em from freezing?



## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Another person posted on water tower bands, which triggered me to ask the question, "How'd they keep those towers from freezing up in very cold weather?" I assume the small structure underneath housed the pumps, but they'd freeze even faster.

Thanks,

Les W.


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## MarkLewis (Jan 2, 2008)

They followed the practive, well documented on an old TV show, of letting hot babes bathe in the tanks.









Mark


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Damn, I must have missed that episode!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

But, what about the pumps?









Les


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

In places like Maine, they completely enclosed them in another structure, which then included a coal stove for heating the inside of that structure. Yard hands were tasked with keeping the stove stoked to keep the water from freezing 24/7 during winter. Keep in mind the stove wasnt there to keep the insides toasty, all they had to do was keep it above freezing, so if it was only a sultry 40 degrees, thats all that mattered. 










Typical Maine enclosed water tower


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## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, 

They didn't really have pumps - it was set up so gravity did the job if at all possible! 

The box from the ground to the underside of the tank was called a frost box and could contain a stove, but more likely is insulation on the water main riser, feeding water in (assisted by the pump IF, fitted. 

The tank feed therefore had to be arranged from as high as possible, when taken from a river(therefore very low level) there was a separate pumphouse, that had a boiler and a steam pump inside it; plus storage for the boilers fuel.




Keeping the boiler/pumphouse separate was for safety, boilers can have nasty habits of blowing up!




Here is my pumphouse being built - it was not finished at this stage. Note the proximity to the tank, there should be a pie from the pumphouse to the tank, mine is supposed to be undergrounfd, thay could be in the open though. The book on the CCRR (Up Clear Creek on the Narrow Gauge) is ny source of plans and has just been re-printed if that area covers your interest. It is about HO gauge but the plans can sson be enlarged!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)




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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Hummm... I NEED a water tank like that. On my layout, I mean....


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

One other early method of feeding water to the tank was done by windmill, but it proved to be unreliable long term.


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## lkydvl (Jan 2, 2008)

Billy-Jo, Bobbi-Jo and Betty-Jo


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Billy-Jo, Bobbi-Jo and Betty-Jo

and the name of the dog? Barfy-Jo??


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The dog was just refered to as "dog", but was played by "Higgins" who went on to play "Benji" with Edgar Buchannon (Uncle Joe) in the movies.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

thanks. 
so it is Ben-Ji, not Ben-Jo...


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Peter,


The approach you are using is, overall, the most sensible representation of real-world conditions. I'm aware that gravity was the preferred method--but. Streams and rivers aren't at a constant level, let alone located above a tank, speaking gravity. Obvious, but neglected. And many places must've been w/o such handy sources. As one who's seen rivers go dry 'that never happened before' (ca 1954) I doubt a revenue-must-generate business (a RR) would depend wholly on that.

One salient consideration has escaped mention: the valve that lowering the spout actuated. I know from personal experience that valves freeze up pretty quickly. The volume of water in the tank would likely be the last thing to freeze, in fact, I suspect it rarely--if ever--happened because that'd tend to spring the wooden sides of the tank. (The only kind I'm interested in).

My RR, set ca1875, is going to be low budget (crude) from the get-go. I remember this 'old guy' who related to me how they'd take the head off a huge Fairbanks-Morris that provided electric for the small town and the RR, heat the piston red hot w. a blowtorch, put it all back together and try to start it. Sometimes it took a crew all day to get it going. I'm not talking just RR needs, but the town pumps, because many homes/businesses didn't have wells and depended on City Water.

Thank you for taking time to post your thoughts.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Vic,

Yeah, and I intend to use that method too on my layout. But it passes by the question of freezing tanks....







As an old farmer I have a lot of exprience with weather extremes. Had I thought more conscisely, I'd have specified the spout valve. Now, I understand steam engines (are there any other kind?







) needed water frequently and had a 'steam outlet' of some sort on the boiler. Maybe they used boiler steam to unstick frozen valves?

Thanks for taking time to post.

Les


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Not quite on topic, but...

From: 
“The Story of American Railroads”, 
by Stewart H. Holbrook, 
Crown Publishers, New York, 
Copyright 1947. 
(Chapter V, The work of the Age.)

“Some of the farmers must have sat up nights figuring how to trim the Erie. One of them, who had a worthless place on a hill near Middletown, heard that the road was looking for good sources of water for the engines. The road ran through this farmer’s place, and at one spot went through a cut where the ground was higher than the locomotive. On a level spot above this site the farmer dug a sizable reservoir, lined it with clay, and by means of small ditches and a little patience, filled the depression with good rain from heaven. Then he called on President Loder of the Erie, who happened to be in Middletown. He told Loder that he, the farmer, was a most fortunate man indeed, in that God had put on his fine farm a wonderful pond of never failing water, fed by deep springs; that the pond was handy to the Erie tracks and that for a consideration of $2,500, modest in view of the circumstances, he would sell to the Erie all rights to the pond.

“Loder and Major Brown, the Erie’s chief engineer, went to look, and sure enough there was a pond of water sufficient to fill the tanks of all the locomotives possessed by Erie. They paid the man his $2,500, and set a crew to work laying iron pipe from the pond to a tank built beside the tracks. When the valve was opened, the tank filled up wonderfully fast, but in doing so the pond went stark dry, and dry it remained." 
--

Back to the question. Some tanks did not have a "valve" other than a flexible coupling (leather hose). When the spout was "up" the water just reached a level point below the raised opening of the spout... water flowed when the spout was lowered... of course that could (and did) freeze in cold weather. Others had the valve deep in the tank where the water itself would insulate it. The tanks seldom froze all the way through, but the part that froze could deplete the amount of liquid water available to fill the tender. In areas where there were sustained freezing temperatures the tanks had heater shacks adjacent to them, but where the weather was milder the tank held enough water that it never froze all the way through.


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a method used in the UK.


http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls231a.htm


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Great Western on 10/06/2008 5:20 AM
This is a method used in the UK.


http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls231a.htm


The "Fire-devils", assuming I am right in identifying them in the photo, sure seem to be horribly ineffecient at keeping the wate column from freezing!


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

I think they were pretty effective when full of hot coke, which gives out a very good heat. The 'ole devils' were used for a great part of the time over the years steam locos operated in the UK. I am sure there were occasions due to wind and unusually low temperatures ( for the UK) that they were not. But as most stations had water supplies there was soon, not far up or down the line, another place that water could be obtained.

We don't have the extreme cold and long distances that are encountered in the States.









There was something quite exciting about standing near to a brazier on a cold night. As a youngster, when watchmen guarded road works here, they always had a small open tent with the brazier plus cups of tea and toast. That was, of course, in a more civilized period of time.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Allen, 

Yes, there's a good deal of cold weather in the US. Down in the Missouri Ozarks, in a hard winter, I've seen running creeks freeze to a good three or four inches, enough for boys to skate on. Across the shoals, the water froze solid. And that country is definitely not known for extended cold. The prairies, and especially the Rocky Mtns, get seriously cold.

I'm aware the tanks likely wouldn't freeze all the way through. It's enough if the valve freezes, though, and there's always a danger of 'springing' the tank walls.

In all the pixes of water tanks I've seen, there never was shown a method of warming the water. Or, it was there and not identified.

Opps! Wife is rattling my food dish!









Les


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Les -

In the days before electricity was readily available, stationary steam engines were sometimes used to power the pumps that brought water up from below ground. If you were lucky enough to have a water source above your tank, then you could just let gravity do the job - but that wasn't often the case, particularly out on the pancake-flat Great Plains. There, the railroads often resorted to an abundant and (usually) reliable alternate power source - the wind. (They were "going green" long before it became PC.) 










Here you see a freelanced model of a typical wind-powered pump house that I recently built. I hooked it up to a water tower (the pipe is kinda obscured in the shade behind the ladders) in a "mock-up" I made of the depot area that will eventually be on my (yet-to-be-built) layout.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

That's cool!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Jack,

I hope this isn't a second post--something ate the first one. That's a very nice model. I've put it in my files, hope you don't mind. My RR is not yet started. I especially think the wooden blades are good. About all you see are these new metal kit jobs, in the LS pixes.

Another method of pumping water I haven't seen modelled is by using a big wobble pump. I had a real one for some years that was about 12"D x 30" L. Big T-handle to operate it. I intend to model one of these to show water being pumped and see how many people know what it is. They were also fitted to hit n miss engines. They could move a lot of water, but were tiring to use manually.

Thanks for the post & pic.

Les


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

Les - I thought Ron (Blackburn49) would jump in here with the pictures he has from the early 1900's in Alaska. If I remember correctly, they had someone stationed (housed) at every water tower to keep the wood stoves fired up and inspect/maintain the trackage nearby.

At - 40...... C or F.... They had a real challenge. 

Drop Ron an email. I'm sure he will share the pictures with you.


Craig


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hadn't thought of him, but he'd definitely know!


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## spjrr (Feb 25, 2008)

Been quite some time since I posted here because of being extremely busy, but this is one topic that is close to home living here in Minnesota. What the railroad workers and everyone had to endure in the early steam days was nutzzzzz. Not to mention those that survived on heating their soddy home with hay twists for heat. With the previous comments about leather flex connections, I would have to agree that this is what made it work. I can remember when I was a little dude taking road trips in the car with my parents along highway 10 in the midwest. There were water towers every 10-15 miles along the tracks that the highway ran parallel to. From what I have been told over the years is that they didn't freeze up because of the huge demand of water that those old locos had. That is why the towers were only 10 or so miles apart. I guess the worst would have been the overnight status of the towers. Probably a lot of thermal dynamics involved here, but somehow they did get it to work... I can tell you our pool only freezes a few feet down as the local lakes do, so I guess water can insulate itself inside or below a layer of ice. It might have had something to do with the towers leaking some so there was constant water flow. It does give you a sense of overall gratitude as to how easy life is now compared to back then... A real interesting subject.


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## cephius (Jan 10, 2008)

Hi everybody

Here are detailed drawings of the box under the tower on the B&O line from 1906. You can see that sawdust was used as an insulator. Supply and feed pipes were in the ground below the frost line.










Here is the pump house that supplied the tank









eMail me if you would like a full size JPG of these drawings.

Dave


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

SPJR,

I'd expect you to know, living up in that country. I never thought the water in a tower would freeze all the way through. My thought was that the valve would freeze first--after that, it wouldn't much matter. Then along the top and down the sides, as in a pond or still holes in a shallow creek. I suspect those towers got sprung on occasion, but how badly I don't know, if they froze hard enough. Someone posted that there were water tenders (guys who kept fires going in heaters under the towers) and I'm fairly sure that something like that must've been done before the gas pipelines got put in. It's more one of those details (or lore) that I wouldn't like to see lost in this push-button age. I do know that on quite a few mornings there was enough ice on the water bucket to need the dipper to crack it, and that was in the kitchen. We didn't have indoor plumbing or central heat. Just a woodstove and a cookstove. I imagine that, aside from frozen valves--if any--the water in a tower wouldn't freeze solid or anywhere near it, but I do think it'd freeze enough to damage the tank based on having to water livestock by stringing garden hoses, then taking them up, being sure they were drained, until the next day. And that was in the Missouri Ozarks, not a place you'd normally think would get that cold, but it did on occasion, and it was just something else to have to struggle with until the underground pipes thawed, which took about a week, in the worst stretches of weather. On the other hand, a lot of winters, all you needed was a common denim coat with the gray lining, and a pair of gloves until the sun got up good, and many Christmases were shirt-sleeve weather times.

Yeah, now that others have advanced their knowledge, it is a pretty interesting detail. Thought it was just me, wondering.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Dave,

Thanks for taking time to post the drawings. I'll freelance my pump buildings and towers. The buildings I'll make will resemble what I remember of the '50s where I grew up, and the tank(s) will look generic, they don't raise my curiousity like the pumphouses and heaters (where used) do. My RR is going to be a backwoods SL anyway, so such elegant buildings would look out of place.









Les


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

Maybe you'll find the following information of use.

*Water Tank/Station Information*
File Format: PDF - File Size: 2.6MB
Left-click to open / Right-click to download


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Steve,

Thank you for taking time to post the PDF.

Les


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## carpenter matt (Jan 3, 2008)

The Waynesburg & Washington R.R. filled it's water tank using the locomotive's injectors to fill the tank in the (Waynesburg)yard, which then gravity fed it to the water column. They also had a water stop where they fill the tender out of a creek the same way.


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## Greg Vocks (Jan 2, 2008)

I just finished reading an article from "Railroad" magazine, October, 1955 (I know, I'm a procrastinator) entitled "Water Stop." On the cover of the magazine, the article teaser says: "Water-Towers, Windmills and Track Pans- The Iron Horse, Whether Steam or Diesel, Has Always Been Thirsty." 
The article begins by telling about firemen in Union City, Indiana being called to the railroad to run their hoses to the track to fill the tender of a locomotive because the water facilities there, and in Muncie and Bellefontaine were froze up. And that was in mid-March (but it didn't say what year.) [By a quick check of the name of the fire chief, I believe it was the mid to late thirties.] 
The article said American railroads were using upwards of 600 million gallons of water a year, passenger trains using 70 to 120 gallons per mile, and freights using 150 to 350 gallons per mile. 
"With their small tenders, the early iron horses had to make water stops rather often- either that or drop dead on their drivers. When water ran low enroute, the crew would pause at a creek or a reservoir, or maybe a spring or a well or a ditch, a river, a lake, or a stream, and drop a hose or get out the buckets and fill 'er up by hand." 
The article goes on to tell an entertaining story: 
"Many years ago the locomotive of a circus train burned a crownsheet because a carload of elephants in the first car had drunk their fill from the tender." 
The article talks of tank-cars, windmills, steam pumps, "tank towns" that grew up around the water tanks, and water pans. 
It also tells of the practice of shoving soap bars in the spout of the water tower to sabotage the next locomotive to fill up (the predecessor it seems , to the sugar in the gas tank trick.) 
By 1949 American railroads had 26,000 wter towers in service, 18,000 of them wooden, 7,000 steel, and the rest concrete or wrought iron. 
The article also goes into quite a bit of detail about treating water with soda ash and lime. 
Many trains ran with extra tank cars, not just for the locomotives, but to replenish the supplies at remote stations. 
To the question posed in this thread: 
"In winter, tanks are generally used often enough to prevent them from freezing solid. Tank outlet valves have a tendancy to freeze up, but a dose of live steam usually loosens them up. Stored in a self-draing position, spouts can never freeze solid." 
One picture in the article shows a tank on the Pacific Great Eastern in British Columbia with an enclosed substructure holding heating equipment. 
Another picture shows an old Northern Pacific tender up on legs with a spout fitted below being used as a trackside tank. 
In 1954, with dieselization progressing rapidly, the Lackawanna's Hoboken Teminal used only 21 million gallons, mostly in washing equipment, heating trains, and cooling engines. In the mid-twenties it consumed that much in less than a week.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW! Great info. Thanks!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Greg,

Thanks for the article. I believe the phrase 'jerkwater town' denoted a settlement too small or new to have a tank so the crew had to 'jerk' the water from a creek.

Now, about hauling extra water along in tank cars: just this morning I was lying abed and thinking about traffic on my RR-to-be, and it came to me that since there will be a mine, and mines are often located on mountains and have steam engines to drive the compressors, perhaps a train of water cars might look good, with a siding near the power house to hold the fulls. Not only that, I reasoned, coal or wood would be required to fire the boilers, so there'd be another revenue generator. I've never seen that aspect discussed in any MR pub. (Not that I've seen 'em all, by a long shot).

As you indicate, water towers were a good deal closer than we tend to think these days, I believe.

Great article!

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Carpenter,

Somehow I missed your post. I've read where RR's actually hauled water to keep certain tanks filled, but not much. That subject hasn't been covered much, I don't think.

Seems to me, if one liked small engines (critters especially) it would look good and plausible to have one dragging a couple of tank cars out to fill the towers. Of course, the critter would have to have a pump driven off the engine, or a donkey on a flatcar with wood/coal, but however one did it, it'd make an interesting little consist to send down the rails.

And, just to speculate, these cheap tenders could probably be reworked into tankers without a lot of trouble. I have seen pixes of 'fire cars' made from converted engine tenders, so I KNOW that was prototypical, at least that far.

I guess a guy could make as intricate a setup as he felt like.

Les


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Guys, 

The AT & SF had 1 of the largest tank car fleets in the steam days for hauling water to the tanks in South West Kansas & New Mexico.. Not much water out here.. 

BulletBob


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bob,

Thanks for the additional info. I wasn't at all sure how widespread the practice was, but I knew it was done in some instances. I personally like the idea for the reason I gave: more rail traffic.

How does the concept of turning tenders into water cars strike you? My RR is a low-budget (only prototypical thing about it so far) SL. I'm going to build at least one fire car from a tender, I have a pic. But all those 'wasted' tenders seem like they'd make good 'service water' tanks sited on side tracks near industries. Does that sound plausible?

The only thing along those lines I actually know of is a 'sand car' used by a RR in its yard to provide for the yard goats. I have a pic in an old mag someplace. Basically, it looks like an oversized freezer on a flat car. Pretty plain-jane.

My era is pre-1900, I've picked 1875 as a mid-point because I like the early stuff and some of the later about equally well.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Big65Dude on 10/06/2008 9:19 PM
Les -

Jack
Very nicely painted and weathered builds. Good photo.
Marty

In the days before electricity was readily available, stationary steam engines were sometimes used to power the pumps that brought water up from below ground. If you were lucky enough to have a water source above your tank, then you could just let gravity do the job - but that wasn't often the case, particularly out on the pancake-flat Great Plains. There, the railroads often resorted to an abundant and (usually) reliable alternate power source - the wind. (They were "going green" long before it became PC.) 










Here you see a freelanced model of a typical wind-powered pump house that I recently built. I hooked it up to a water tower (the pipe is kinda obscured in the shade behind the ladders) in a "mock-up" I made of the depot area that will eventually be on my (yet-to-be-built) layout.


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks, Marty -

If you'd like to see some more pics of it, click on my name below and go to the "Structures" pull-down menu.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Jack, 

Your structures are all beautiful but I am sure taken with that pumphouse and windmill. I hope you get a RR up and running soon. I'd love to see your work in action.


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## Big65Dude (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard,

You and me both!

Thanks,


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## Road Foreman (Jan 2, 2008)

Les, 

Lots of railroads used old tenders for water cars.. UP does it today with "canteens" as the Canadians call them behind 3895 & 844.. Some times you will see 2 canteens behind 844.. But you have to remember that 844 was designed to cruise @ 100 MPH.. But today she is restricted to 79 MPH, the same as Amtrak.. 

BulletBob


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks for the confirmation, Bob. Since I hate to waste anything, I've been pondering a use for those old tenders I won't be needing, as I want tank engines, mostly, and Critters (steam) on the actual work sites.

Wish I could get started....sigh.

Les


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