# Can you recommend a water pump?



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

After 3 weeks, my SmartPond pump crapped out and I'm returning it to Lowe's. I went to archives and read about 3 posts from the past dealing with water pumps. I'm studying links you all provided.

There's a lot to decipher there. I'm wondering if anyone can recommend a pump to me, based on these criteria:

1. Relatively cost-efficient in terms of energy usage (I did find a cool calculator: http://www.pondliner.com/product/electric_calculator/topics
I'm thinking magnetic might be more cost efficient over direct drive 


2. Able to pump dirty water--not that my water is dirty but debris, leaves and stuff could blow in (or not overheat and die if debris somehow gets in); I'm thinking this might be a no-brainer as many pumps have special filter attachments


3. Able to work in sub-freezing weather (my SmartPond I had specifically warned not to put in freezing water or water over 86F)

4. Able to pump approx 600 to 1000 gph

5. Some sort of protective device if the water level should suddenly drop

6. Less than $150

7. Reliability (I think ceramic bearings are recommended)


I know that these criteria are rather daunting and perhaps there's nothing out there that can meet the criteria, but I thought I'd give er a shot.

Thanks in advance

Dave V


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

I have had extremely good performance from magnetic drive pumps made by OASE. I currently am using two in my pond, a Nautilus 2600 (2600GPM) for a waterfall and an Aqumax SF2200 (2200GPM) for a stream. Both run 24/7, year-long, even when the pond is mostly frozen over. The Nautilus has been running almost continuously for over 7 years and the Aqumax is now 3 years old. OASE has a five year warranty on their pumps. They are extremely energy efficient. Here is what I would recommend for you: OASE Aquamax 2100 Pond Pump, 2100 GPH, 100 Watts, $219.00. It is a little bit of overkill, and a bit over your price target, but I think you would be very happy with it. 
link to pump


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi Bob, 

Are you using some sort of accessories with it like prefilters or filters or just as is? 

Is there a low-water shutoff or would one need to purchase some sort of accessory? 

I'm assuming the unit has a volume control that could be turned down to reduce flow/save energy; I'm aware it's always better getting one more highy rated so I guess this last statement isn't a big concern 

my calculator that I gave the link to above states that for Virginia, 100 watts running 24 hours a day consumes .26 cents per day, btw


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Most pumps like the one I recommended come with an outer shell that pre-filters any large items like leaves (and also keeps the fish out of the pump.) In my case, I remove the actual pump from the outer shell. I have each of them in a skimmer on opposite sides of the pond. These are similar to the skimmers found in swimming pools. The skimmers have leaf baskets that pre-filter the large floating debris. The output from the pumps go to mechanical/biological filters located outside of the pond. These filters remove the fine particulate matter with foam mats and then pass the water over biological filters where anerobic bacteria convert the ammonia and other harmful waste products into nitrates. The output from the filters flow into the stream and top of the waterfall, and eventually back into the pond. The nitrates feed the plants; the plants feed the fish; the fish generate the ammonia; and the whole cycle starts over again. The larger the pond, the more stable this cycle is. My last pond was approximately 2500 gallons. I am currently building a new pond and extending the stream length. The new pond is approximately 5000 gallons. While the construction is going on, I have my fish in a small 250 gallon, pre-formed plastic pond, with only the Nautilus 2600GPM pump running and a single external mechanical/biological filter.

One of the things that is most important when sizing a pump is the amount of head. Head is a combination of the resistance to water flow caused by the piping (diameter, wall smoothness, turns, etc.) and the height that the water is lifted. The pump I recommended is rated at 2100GPH at perfect conditions (no head.) In actuality, if you are lifting the water 5 feet, the GPH drops to 900GPH. At 7.5 feet, the GPH drops to 560GPH. When you add in the additional resistance of the piping, the GPH would drop even further.

The pump has a thermal shutoff, so it would shut down automatically if the pump ran dry. There are auto-fill devices that you can add to a pond to ensure that the water level remains constant, but in my experience they are not 100% foolproof. I do not belive that the pump I recommended has a throttling capability to lower the flow rate.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Bob, 

much thanks for your time in providing me information. I don't have fish and plants to worry about at the moment and don't anticipate getting any except for maybe some small native minnows or plants from the area I live. 

every time it rains, I get a complete water change as my entire system is connected to a water barrel and to a roof drainspout 

I will check this post over the next day for additional (if any) comments and likely order the one you suggest tomorrow. 

Thermal shutoff sounds good; although I don't anticipate running dry, just insurance. 

Dave V


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I had some fancy/pricey pond pumps that all failed on me. Have had good luck with Sunterra pumps that the local farm store sells. They are pond pumps and have been running for years. I have about the next to the largest and a medium one. I did take out the foam filter things.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By rhyman on 18 Aug 2010 09:42 AM The pump has a thermal shutoff, so it would shut down automatically if the pump ran dry.

That's not what a thermal shutoff does. A TS, or overload protector as they're sometimes called, senses the temperature of the electrical winding portion of the motor, and opens the circuit if it exceeds a certain level. They are typically a bimetallic device that acts as a switch. When a pump runs dry, the motor doesn't overheat - it's a no-load condition. Instead, any water-lubricated seals will be ruined.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Jerry, Sunterra's pumps should not be operated below 41F, so says the owner's manual that I just looked up. That was one of my 7 criteria. 

Jim, Thermal shutoff is good, I'm guessing, if your plug isn't GFCI protected like my outside plugs are not. 

You mention no-load condition. Aqumax seal won't break and leak oil, so says their site. 

I'll likely decide on my order by COB today.


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## rhyman (Apr 19, 2009)

Jim,
Perhaps I used the wrong term when I said "thermal shutoff". The Aquamax pump is water cooled; it is designed to be operated only when totally submerged. According to the OASE web site, their pumps should never be run when dry. They say, 

"This inevitably results in damage to the shaft and bearings. Our models with the EFC specification (environmental function control) in the Aquamax range are automatically protected against dry run." 

I know for a fact that this protection works on the Aquamax as I have had a couple of occassions when the water level in my pond dropped below the pump chamber level either due to maintenance draining or by an accidental system leak. In both cases, the pump shut off when the water level emptied in the pump chamber with no damage to the pump. The pump restarted when I refilled the pond. In the OASE illustrated parts breakdown for the Aquamax pump, they show an internal thermal sensor on the motor inside of the stainless steel outer housing. I just assumed that this thermal sensor was how they handled the shut-off. There are no obvious floats or other mechanisms that could perform the shut-off. Botom line is -- I don't know exactly how it works, I just know that it does.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi Bob, 

Using the link you provided, I went ahead and ordered it, along with a T-fitting for the 25' of 3/4" spiral tubing I also ordered so I can split the flow to 2 places, a flu for a waterwheel and a small waterfall feature. Spiral tubing, he said, was more robust than regular smooth.

I took the order by phone. He (the person I spoke with) said low water, meaning no water, would ruin the pump, but it's nice to know that it worked out well for you! 

I didn't see a link to an owner's manual for a downloadable pdf, so I'm curious if the model I'm ordering has the EFC spec you mention. If it has that spec, that seems to be why the pump shut off and would be a good thing, just in case. Another question might be how this pump can operate below freezing while others can't. 

I asked if a separate filter is needed and the gent said a separate filter is only needed if you wish to have clean water. My concern is more to do with protecting the motor, not clean water, as it regularly gets flushed by the downspout when it rains and I don't have fish or plants, so I'm using the unit as is, with no filter (just the shell around the unit that it comes with that filters out bigger particles). 

Another thing he said that would ruin the pump would be to unplug the unit and leave it out where it would dry up. He said if you turn off the pump for some reason, leave it immersed. I'm assuming he means the seals would dry out and malfunction?


In any case, I'm looking forward to installing it. It should arrive in 3 days. 

I appreciate your help in answering all my questions.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I'll admit I'm not familiar with the OASE pump - my experience is with mostly domestic water, sump, yard irrigation, and agricultural pumps, with a sprinkling of some specialty applications. My dad ran a pump and motor shop for years, I grew up around them and worked for him, plus spent 4 years in a steam engineroom in the Navy. There's always something new to learn! 

The EFC sounds like a very nice feature for a pond pump. I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like the simple diaphragm pressure switches used in washing machines to sense when the tub is full. Nice to know that it works as advertised. The thermal sensor is another level of protection, which usually comes into play if something gets jammed in the pump and the motor can't turn. 

A GFCI and a thermal overload protector are completely unrelated. The GFCI is there to protect humans against a "ground fault", i.e. current that could pass through your body to ground. GFCIs don't trip due to over-current through the intended circuit. You can run into issues running motors on GFCI-protected circuits because motors are an inductive load, meaning that when they start up there is a brief mismatch between the current going to the motor and the current coming back. That mismatch is exactly what GFCIs are designed to detect, because it usually means the current is going somewhere you don't want it to, like through your body. 

All water pumps are water cooled to some extent. They have to have a seal (unless magnetically coupled) that needs to be lubricated by the water.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi Jim, 

This is magnetic or induction operated unit. 

As to the GFCI, I don't have one on the outlet in the backyard, but I understand I can purchase one that can be plugged into the outlet, to which the pump plug is then plugged into. 

Shipping, btw, is 3 days (cost $16 to ship), and so should arrive by Monday. I'm pretty excited as the water at present is stagnant (not moving) and mosquitoes are breeding there and the neighbors will probably be by with torches and pitchforks


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Most pump places or even Harbor Frt. has Pump Float Switches to put in line with your pumps..We use two of them on our ponds. ( in a pump pit.) Keep pumps from burning up with no water. You can get them for 120 vac or 240 vac. pumps.
Just an idea.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

"magnetically coupled" means that the motor (electrical part) is connected to the pump (fluid moving part) through a magnetic coupler, not by a mechanical shaft. This eliminates the need for a seal where the shaft would normally enter the pump cavity. This method is used on a lot of scientific equipment due to the nature of the fluids involved. For a pond pump, it's just one less thing to wear out - a good idea for something that may run nearly continuously. 

That (above) is completely independent of the type of motor, all of which operate on the principles of magnetism. An "induction motor" is a specific kind that has neither a wound rotor nor a permanent magnet rotor, and induces a current in the armature via the field windings, as contrasted with a "universal motor" that has a wound rotor (armature), e.g. drill motor, or with a permanent magnet motor. But we're wandering out of the pond and off into the weeds here! 

Sounds like you're acting just in time to fend off the restless natives. Thanks for posting this topic. I got some info I can add to my pond-in-the-future file.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Dave, I have two Dolphin water proof 10,800 gph pumps from AZponds.com. My Koi pond runs 24/7/365 with a metal framed cover overtop during the winter months and this is the second time I replaced both pumps in the last 3 years. The only time I shut them off is when I clean the pond once a week and that's usually about an hour long. Their very hard working pumps and sometimes they pump so much water over my two waterfalls that they slowly suck my two bay filtration system closer to the two intake PVC pipes. 

I'm very please, 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 

P.S. I have 35 Koi and 12 goldfish in my 24,000 gallon koi pond which reaches 42L by 22W by 6D , with four four inch PVC pipe underground intake into a 5-7-5 slug box that filters through my 5-5-6 filter box that pumps it into an enlcosed dry underground container box where my two pumps pump 30 ft put to two waterfalls.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Noel, Thanks for the tip; I think it would be a wise investment! 

Jim, yes, most definitely one less thing that can go wrong; esp. for those of you with expensive fish! 

Rick, I'm continually hearing about pond pumps going bad. It would be interesting to analyze the problems that cause them to fail. Your setup sounds interesting. To push that much water, they must be direct drive pumps. 

After hearing about all the failures, I'm convinced that it pays to pay more for a quality product with a good warranty. If it lasts the full 5 years of the warranty, it will be well worth it, as have a water feature in the backyard is, IMO, just as exciting as having backyard trains! 

Dave V.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't know if this clears up the mystery of a thermal protection device but here goes, quote (read last sentence): 

b. Pump protection Many submersible pumps are fitted with additional safety features. Float switches are a safety back-up which prevents pumps from burning out should they run dry. Should the water level within a pond drop, then the change in angle of the float switch will cause the pump to switch off. An additional safety feature found in many pumps is a thermal cut-out which also switches the pump off should it over heat. This will also protect the pump should it ever run dry. 

from: 

http://www.pond-doctor.co.uk/longpondpumpsbuyers.html 

I read on another site that it's not a good idea to rely continually on the thermal device for shutoff b/c if relied on too frequently, it could malfunction; but it is, however, a good last resort device 


Here's another site that agrees: quote

If your submersible pump has been run dry or in water that does not completely cover the pump casing unplug the pump. Most modern submersible pond pumps are fitted with a thermal protection device. Simply put, the thermal protection device turns the pump off it gets hot. A pond pump WILL get hot and trip the thermal protection if the pump is run dry or is not completely submerged. Simply waiting and filling the pond to the appropriate level will often reset the thermal protection switch and allow the pump to resume normal operation. It can take the thermal protection over an hour to reset so be patient. If patience just isn’t your thing, place the pump in an ice water bath for 15 minutes, reinstall, and check the pump operation. Some thermal protection systems require that the power to the pump be turned off to reset the protection circuit. Simply unplug the pump for a minute and then plug it back in.

http://www.naturalwaterscapes.com/PumpRepair.html


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## takevin (Apr 25, 2010)

Posted By SE18 on 18 Aug 2010 09:56 AM 
Bob, 

much thanks for your time in providing me information. I don't have fish and plants to worry about at the moment and don't anticipate getting any except for maybe some small native minnows or plants from the area I live. 

every time it rains, I get a complete water change as my entire system is connected to a water barrel and to a roof drainspout 

I will check this post over the next day for additional (if any) comments and likely order the one you suggest tomorrow. 

Thermal shutoff sounds good; although I don't anticipate running dry, just insurance. 

Dave V 
If you do get a complete water change, you'll either want to skip putting fish in there or not have the water barrel/roof drainspot connected to the pond then.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm late to the thread, but I have Oase pumps in my fountain, one is 10 years old and going strong and runs continuously. Their stuff is very high quality and also power efficient. 

When I had extensive landscaping done, the consensus that for this kind of operation, Oase was the best. 10 years later, that is still the local consensus of higher end landscapers. 

I run a biological filter on the input but no other "fine" filter. 

Regards, Greg


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By izzy0855 on 19 Aug 2010 11:00 PM 
Hi Dave, I have two Dolphin water proof 10,800 gph pumps from AZponds.com. My Koi pond runs 24/7/365 with a metal framed cover overtop during the winter months and this is the second time I replaced both pumps in the last 3 years. The only time I shut them off is when I clean the pond once a week and that's usually about an hour long. Their very hard working pumps and sometimes they pump so much water over my two waterfalls that they slowly suck my two bay filtration system closer to the two intake PVC pipes. 

I'm very please, 
Rick Isard 
Cordless Renovations, LLC 

P.S. I have 35 Koi and 12 goldfish in my 24,000 gallon koi pond which reaches 42L by 22W by 6D , with four four inch PVC pipe underground intake into a 5-7-5 slug box that filters through my 5-5-6 filter box that pumps it into an enlcosed dry underground container box where my two pumps pump 30 ft put to two waterfalls. Hi Rick... We have over 70 koe and some over 2 foot long and now some new baby koe over in the breeding area. We have a pool skimmer to keep the stuff off the top of the water ( leaves and such) and PVC skinmming off the deepes part of the pond .. All of our Piipes are 2 " PVC.
We have a 6-6-8 foot deep pit for the slug and samll filter also a large sump pump to pump out for 3 inch of water off the Koe pond to the back Resivor once a day. 

Question is.. Rick. Do you have a photo or diagram of your 5-5-6 filter box????? I like to build a better filter and do you have to back flush it??? or how do you keep it clean?? Just wondering and looking for something a little better that what I using now. These ponds here are kind of over protected on floats valves and pond saftey switches to make sure if one pump fails another one will start up and ponds never got to low or to high.. We even put in wet sencers for ditch water to tree running from the Resivor to keep the trees watered once a month. Only thing we don't have much control is the 6 Inch PVC overflow to the 6 acre nabor prop. but he like all of the water he can get. laf.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, my Sunterra pump has gone through several Nebraska winters, down to -20 or so.....


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

The pump arrived last night. I'm not going to set it up until I investigate the low-water warning. The warranty states that low water will destroy the pump. It also advises NOT running in water temps over 86F or when the weather gets below 32F. It states that the pump will ABSOLUTELY fail in those conditions. Probably the lawyers who wrote up the warranty want to cover the bases a bit aggressively. I was surprised about the cold, as the advertisements mention it can be used in the cold. Anyway, I want to protect my investment and will search for a plunger or something. Also, the unit comes with a 20 foot cord and the warranty mentions not to use an extension cord. However, I DO need an extension to get it out there and am using an extension that is made for outside that's very thick. 

Cheers 

Dave V


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Been surfing web and see prices ranging from 43 to around $65. Looking at this one: 

http://www.123ponds.com/ligilowwasho1.html


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Not over 86F? Wow! It's warmer than that here (SoCal) right now. I don't know if _pond water _would be that warm, but it seems like it could be on our hottest days. Maybe there is enough evaporative cooling going on to keep the water below 86F. 
My guess is that it has something to do with keeping the motor from overheating, what with it being submerged and the water being the cooling medium. (It dawned on me that that is why the thermal overload protector can "sense" a low-water situation.) 

Make sure that extension cord actually has big wires and not just thick insulation. Small wires can cause excessive voltage drop, which can result in motor overheating: the motor will always try to do the same rate of work = power = volts X amps. If volts are low, amps have to go up, and it's the amps that create heat. If you're talking about the OASE Nautilus 2600 though, it is only 260W (according to this http://www.oasefountain.com/pumps/nautilus2600.htm), so that is only a couple amps+. I can't see that being a problem with a 14ga extension cord unless you're talking ridiculous lengths.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks, Jim, 

I think that between the thermal protection and the low-water shutoff device which I purchased yesterday from the link I just gave, I'll be good to go; hopefully for many years.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a little late catching on to this thread. Which pump did you go with, Dave?

The only thing I might possibly add is that after years of using the "old fashioned" kind of submersible pump with a foam screen protecting the intake, I switched this year to a solids handling pump with a big plastic case around it. Maintenance is easier now, as I only need to clean the external pressure filter now and then, and I can leave the icky pump at the bottom of the pond. With the old set up I was cleaning the foam filter all the time.


Cheers...


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi Pete, wondered how you are doing setting up your new RR & possibly water feature? 

I went with OASE pump, the one from the first reply. The company for some reason has moved his original link to the pump away to a general site. 

Here's the new link: 

http://www.pondliner.com/category/oase_aquamax_sf_pumps 

After 2 cheapo (Lowes and one from Harbor F) pump failures, I decided I needed to invest in something with quality and reputation and, apparently, some good testimonials. 

As a precaution, I've ordered a low-water shutoff device, which I just mentioned, to give added protection, even tho I've heard the thermal device in the pump can shut it off. The warranty states it can't but from what I've read from numerous sites, it can. 

I guess I'm being a bit overly cautious, b/c I want to enjoy the garden, the trains, and the water features and not have headaches over failures. 

Dave


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

oh, 1 more thing. I'm currently not using a filter (the pump has a filter built in and can pass 3/8" objects, so it claims); b/c at this time, fish and plants are not a priority. I'm going to give it, say a year, for the lime to leach out of the concrete used in the canal construction before experimenting with plants and maybe a few native tiny minnows, as my canal is linear and unsuitable for big fish like koi. Then, I'll look into filters, which is probably a whole nother ball of wax and a topic that can wax long, I'm sure, in another post next year. Maybe some zebra muscles can filter the water (just kidding) ;_) 

The pump I purchased, the OASE Aquamax 1600, pumps out twice the volume I need for the given rise/run of the line so I got a T, which can split the 3/4" ribbed water line to direct the flow to 2 places. I'd rather have gotten a Y but they only had a T (they say not to do abrupt turns in water lines). 

BTW, the low water shutoff switch operates by a diaphram that detects when the water is low. I need to mount it on a short pole, which I'll fabricate this evening using PVC and a concrete base. I'm not sure of the physics or theory of how a diaphram actually works, however, but it is NOT like a toilet plunger. The switch has a cord with a male and female plug at the end so that the pond pump's plug can fit into the female plug of the shutoff switch. The cord on the switch is 18' and the pump is 20' so that's how they marry up.


BTW, when the temperature is 90 or 100 outside, the water temp is actually somewhat lower, esp since most of the canal is in shade most of the day. 

Incidentally, someday when I get some fish, a good discussion might center on air pumps. I see OASE offers one at a good price. The purpose would be to allow air into the water by keeping a spot ice free in winter

http://www.pondliner.com/product/oa..._adapter/oase_aquamax_pumps_replacement_parts 


Cheers

Dave


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm not sure of the physics or theory of how a diaphram actually works 
The diaphragm is a barrier between the water and the electrical switch, and provides a surface area for the pressure of the water to push on. (That is hydrostatic pressure, created by the depth and density of the water - what you feel on your ears when you dive into the deep end of the pool.) On the other side of the diaphragm is the switch and a spring. When the force created by the water pushing on one side is greater than the force of the spring pushing back, the diaphragm deflects enough to actuate the switch, which in this case is a normally-closed type.


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, Dave. I thought I would have the new DBR up and running this summer, but my attempts to integrate the railway with the new pond failed. Artistically I think a "conventional" garden fish pond and garden railway are incompatible. I know that your water feature is designed to suit a railway. 

I guess you need a low water shut off because your pond is not very deep. I mean, the chances of draining a pond to the bottom without the owner noticing first are pretty slim. You may remember that the classic DBR had a similar sounding cistern float switch that turned the pump ON when the water was low, and shut the pump off when the water was high. Opposite of what most ponders need. 

Anyway, my pond turned out really nice. Perhaps I'll lay track somewhere else next year. 

btw, That excess capacity your pump has will come in handy should you decide to add a filter. (my pump is an AquaForce 2000 with 1.25 inch plumbing and a uv pressure filter)


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks, Jim for the straightforward simple explanation. 

Pete, 

I got inspiration for the canal from Rob Bennett's friend in the UK who has one and from Granitechops; it is a real space-saver. The photos from those gentlemen can be found at the 7/8 forum http://www.7-8ths.info 

I also posted photos of their work in MLS here: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/10/aft/114957/afv/topic/Default.aspx A canal is an excellent choice where backyard space precludes a pond. It also ties in well with the linear space of a railway. 

I'm planning a flue and some other water features. Should one of the hounds topple the flue and cause the water to drain outside the pond, it would result in low or no water. 

My thought now is whether or not to locate the pump inside the pond or outside of the water. The latter can be done if a pipe or hose connection is lower than the water level. That would require boring a hole at the bottom of my containment pond and waterproofing the area the pipe goes in and out using foam or rubber gaskets. 

The idea has appeal b/c I could then install a very small, simple filter in the outlet area instead of relying on that huge armadillo like casing that goes around the pump and acts as a filter but must be disassembled several times a year to clean. 

The OASE has a fitting for the intake from the pond if used externally and it also has, of course, the nozzle for sending water out. 

I'd be curious to know if anyone else has their pump located outside the water. I haven't switched the pump on yet so I'm not sure if there's any noise to it. 

Incidentally, I went home and read the warranty and it states to operate the OASE in 40-86F water 

Later 

Dave


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

quick update; quick question 

Question 

I need to route 1" corrugated water line plus 2 cords across the yard. The cords and water line fit nicely in a 1.5" electrical PVC (grey color, made for outside). The problem, however, is that the plug on the switch diaphram is too large to fit into the 1.5" PVC. In fact, it's even too large to fit inside a 2" PVC and would require 2.5", which seems like a waste. The reason one of the plugs is too large is that the diaphram switch (used to cut off the pump if water goes dry), has a place on the plug in which the pump plug plugs in to tie the 2 together. 

Some options: 

use a 2.5 diameter PVC 

run the PVC down the length of my table saw (rip cut) to open up a slit in which to insert the cord 

any other options that sound better? 

I'd rather not bury loose electrical cords without some type of protection. 

UPDATE 

The pump and thermal switch are working. I decided to mount the pump outside, as my containment pond is small and the pump with it's outside filter is quite large. The outside filter is supposed to be removed when you mount the pump outside the pond. The pump is actually below water level so gravity feeds the water down. The instructions it comes with recommends this. 

The hardest part was drilling thru the concrete. 




Hammer drill and spiral and chisel bit 










about 7 inches of concrete and 1.5” outdoor PVC to lowest point inside, actually lower than lowest point 










filter material 










hole sealed from both sides with hydraulic cement; couldn’t find outdoor elbows so used white elbow and painted it (along with white sleeve and bushing attached to pump’s ball joint). The ball joint is useful for positioning the pump. The male spout will take the water hose leading to the pond. It can accommodate everything from about ¾ to 1.5 inch hose. 










with the pump used externally, I don’t need to use this “armadillo” wrap around the pump


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well this is going to be a tad late... 
1. I would have mounted the pump above water level. 
2. I would have added a ball valve and 
3. 2 union connectors between pond and pump 

Reasons; pumps go bad. Should you need to repair it water will drain from your pond (1) the ball valve would stop that and unions make seperating the pump from the line very easy. Once you have the returns plumbed it will be more work removing the pump. Unions allow lifting the pump out of the circuit without disturbing the other pipes. 

Since you have good flow why not split the return and use half for features and half to keep the level up? 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks for suggestion on splitter 

the pump as shown is easy to disconnect. The sleeve unscrews and the water hose (not shown) pulls off. The instructions specifically state the pump must be below water level, as gravity feeds the pump, then pushes it out the hose back up.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Your concerns about burying the cord are well-founded. I doubt they are rated for direct burial. 

If'n it was me, I'd separate the water and the electrical. If you can run a straight shot with the PVC for the sleeve, you can also run rigid PVC pipe for the water, which will have significantly less pressure loss due to friction than using the corrugated tubing. Then run the electrical in PVC conduit. 

If you do the tablesaw slit, can you actually open up the slit enough to fit the cord through? PVC pipe is pretty stiff in that direction, though maybe 1.5" is big enough to flex. 

I'm trying to figure out your electrical routing. I understand the plug/socket arrangement on the Little Giant low-water switch cord. Why do you have to run both cords across the yard? What is the position relationship of power source, pump and switch?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By SE18 on 07 Sep 2010 09:56 AM 
thanks for suggestion on splitter 

the pump as shown is easy to disconnect. The sleeve unscrews and the water hose (not shown) pulls off. The instructions specifically state the pump must be below water level, as gravity feeds the pump, then pushes it out the hose back up. 

OK, but I'd still suggest the ball valve, not big bucks in plastic and should you get fish, they will appreciate it! As will your feet should you need to remove the pump.









John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I’ll look into the ball joint dealy, thanks.

Also thanks for the splitter idea; I’ll be routing excess water directly back into the pump containment pond. As I see it now, it really does make sense to have a higher capacity pump than required, as that’s an easy way to rid excess.

If anyone is following this thread, with thoughts for a water feature, the best advice I can give you is to read about mistakes people make on this forum (like me and then learn from them). The top tip I can give is to design your water feature FIRST even before the trains, as you can see from the photo the problems encountered.

The photo shows the canal at an earlier stage of construction but nonetheless indicates the path of electrons and water.

First off, the red line is the 1” water line starting from the containment pond that holds the pump on the right side. You will notice that it crosses UNDER the concrete canal, which required a heck of a dig. Then, it follows the canal and RR tracks around and then goes under the RR tracks and back around to the waterwheel, ending at the upper left side of the photo, about 35 feet total.

The blue line starts out where the red line did at the pump and diaphram switch. It follows the red line but near the upper left side, it not only goes under the RR track, it also must go OVER the canal, as it is very difficult to dig under the canal at that point as it is super wide and deep. (I plan to run the cord in PVC that resembles an industrial pipe, spray painting it a rust color). Then, the cord takes a journey up the deck pole in the extreme upper left. It then crosses the deck where the plug is at.

You can see the extension cord dangling from the deck. It will be secured to the leg of the deck using U shaped nails used for securing conduit.

Not a very optimal design.

I could punch a hole into the side of the house on ground level and install a plug there that’s GFCI protected. But that would entail going under my other canal and under 2 sets of RR tracks that have concrete foundations on top of large rocks under the ground. In short, it would be a major headache.

When designing the RR about 8 or so years ago, I hadn’t a clue I’d have a water feature, much less a complicated canal.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's not a ball joint, it's a ball valve. 

First time I had to pull the pump I saw the wisdom of shutting off the flow! So I added the valve! 

Glad to help. 

John


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

The blue line starts out where the red line did at the pump and diaphram switch. It follows the red line but near the upper left side, it not only goes under the RR track, it also must go OVER the canal, as it is very difficult to dig under the canal at that point as it is super wide and deep. (I plan to run the cord in PVC that resembles an industrial pipe, spray painting it a rust color). Then, the cord takes a journey up the deck pole in the extreme upper left. It then crosses the deck where the plug is at. OK, so if I understand correctly, the pump and switch are in the same location, and both are ~35' from the power source at the deck. Rather than running both cords, including the one with the mega-size plug, back to the source, why not run a single power cord out to the pump/switch spot? From what you wrote earlier, the pump and switch cords aren't long enough to go the whole distance anyway. Maybe I'm still missing something . . .


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

First time I had to pull the pump I saw the wisdom of shutting off the flow! So I added the valve! 
Valves and unions are the most commonly omitted items on DIY-er domestic (potable) water pump system installations. People think, "Why spend money on those (extraneous) expensive fittings? I can just screw (or glue) these things together and be done." Then, the first time service work needs to be performed (and every system will need repair at some point), a pipe or two needs to be cut with a saw and either a piece of flex (radiator) hose or a union inserted to put it back together. We saw this a lot in the farming community where I grew up, farmers being the handy, self-sufficient types but not aware of the nuances of good pump plumbing.

And then there are Navy enginerooms, where you find shut-off valves on _everything! _


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Jim, thanks for suggestions. 

Last night added a valve but it was dark by time got done, as I also added a splitter near the pump with 1 going back into the pond where the pump is at (to reduce water flow). 

I'm adding another splitter toward the top, 1 going to the waterwheel and another will just empty into the canal at the upper end (If I didn't put a splitter near the upper end, the water wheel would be overwhelmed with water  

I'll take some pictures over the weekend and try to summarize in some short bullet points all I've learned from this experience if anyone just started reading and wants a summary (there will be a lot more to learn as time goes by I'm sure)

Incidentally, prices in Lowes and HD are about half of what they are in garden centers for pipes, hose, fittings 

in the near future, btw, I'm going to be building a massive aquaduct that will carry a canal and railway so the extra water pressure will come in handy! 


out 

Dave


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I got everything installed and working peachy. The flow at the canal was a lot greater than previous pump and I had to lower the spillway to prevent topping the levees.

Thanks for all of the tips everyone! It’s been helpful.

The flow of the new pump is so great that I had to feed it into the waterwheel at the bottom, thus, it is spinning backwards! I wonder in real life if this ever occurs?










The ball valve, as you can see, has been added. Only took about a minute to do. I actually had to close off the water so I can see how useful it might be.










The “T.” The grey hose leads back to the pond where the pump is at, to remove excess flow. The excess will later be useful once I build my giant aqueduct. Also, the flow back to the pump pond will keep it ice-free in winter. All hoses are 1” diameter. The T can be removed and a 1”-1” coupling installed when the excess water becomes needed. I sort of wish they made a T with a cutoff or flow restrictor, sort of like the ball valve.










As you can see, there’s plenty of excess water that might later prove useful. The cord is from the diaphram switch.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Once you have all your plumbing done you should spray paint all the PVC pipe to slow down UV damage. Plastic pipe gets brittle from exposure to sunlight. 

Looks good. 

They do make T's with a smaller size pipe outlet in the middle, but no adjustable types. 

John


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

The flow of the new pump is so great that I had to feed it into the waterwheel at the bottom, thus, it is spinning backwards! I wonder in real life if this ever occurs? 
Yup, quite common, in fact. It's called an "undershot" design. Just not as photogenic as overshot wheels, which is probably why you haven't seen one.


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## izzy0855 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi Noel, sorry for the late reply and if you would email me at [email protected] or email address, I will send you some pictures and designs. 


Rick Isard
Cordless Renovations, LLC


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## pdk (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny

I was just looking over the instructions for my pond pump (for the first time, after running it all summer) and they actually RECOMMEND that you run it all winter long, to keep a hole in the ice. No temperature concerns whatsover. Hmm.


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

My pump has been running for the last five years except for when I clean it or there is a power outage. (Hozelock Cyprio Titan Pump)


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Oh my, the waterpump post is back. I'll just add a postscript. My pump has been phenominal, along with the ball valve and diaphram switch. 

It's been a real joy in my life and my 2 beagles seem to like it as well. It wouldn't have been possible without all of your help and recommendations.

@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0du2PzDyQ


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0du2PzDyQ 
Cool! (literally AND figuratively) Very Halloweeny like, especially since you wrote "a bag of dry _eyes" _in your comment on youtube


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