# "Sound" Advice for a Beginner



## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

I am a newbie and need a direction adding sound to a loco. I am running LGB European locos from the HSB line. I have one loco that is MTS ready, several that have no digital, and a few recent used ones that have the "old" sound, which I believe is activated by magnets on the track? I also purchased a Digitraxx Super Chief Extra almost a year ago, and shortly thereafter the store closed, so no help there. I see that I can get a LGB 65000 Euro Steam sound unit (which also has a built-in decoder) for under $200. But the sound seems limited compared to other brands and units. But since I bought the Digitraxx, am I limited to what decoders and sound brands I can buy? Massoth seems to have some great sound for my locos (decoder and sound for $350) while I can't find an example of European Steam from LGB. Please help get me pointed in the right direction! Any advice would be appreciated! By the way, I've been reading through this forum and am wondering what language you guys are speaking?Thanks! Craig


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

We need more info on how you power your engines. 

Battery 
Analog DC 
DCC 

Some sound units are available with DCC decoders as an all-in -one package. I work specifically with Zimo and these have motor, light controls plus programmable sound and are under $200. 
Small HO style ones with 2 amp capability and 30 volt rating are closer to $120 for those small engines in Largescale. 

SO, that makes the 65000 look very expensive if DCC control of the engine is needed to be added. 

There are inexpensive units out there, but make sure you check the voltage rating as I prefer 28 volts or more for running as my input voltage is 24 volts A/C . 

Decoders can have many extra features for a little more money such as pulsing smoke and different light controls (gyro, strobe/times flashing/ etc.)


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, what Dan said. What control system will you be using? 

I run on DCC and mostly use QSI, which I've been very happy with. But there are other choices in DCC, all in one sound and motor control boards which are convenient to use and offer lots of features 

If you run on DC you have a different set of issues, and on batteries yet another set of issues


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Craig: The price of the XLS sounddecoder from Massoth is more like $259 from now until August 31. For that price you get a decoder, a speaker, and connection cables. There is currently 2 HSB specific decoders. 
Mohammed


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

Craig, 

Phoenix Sound is a very good choice. You can program each unit on you computer, every sound can be tweaked to your specs. That includes changing the type of loco, making it very versatile. 

http://www.phoenixsound.com/


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

First, thanks for the replies. So here's more info. Right now I am running everything analog with a couple of power supplies that came in starter kits. I purchased a Digitrax Super Chief Xtra which is rated at 8 amps. I want to be able to control the motor and sound. From what I have read now, controlling the motor may not be included in a sound card? Maybe I need to understand exactly what the decoder does. I thought it allowed interface of both motor and sound? For my first conversion I have a LGB 22801 Steam Loco. The instructions have the following information: 0-24 volts; use with power supply of at least 1 amp; this model has "D" gearbox and decoder interface. I really like the idea of the synchronized chuffing, so that would be a consideration. Thanks!


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

The Massoth xls is both a driving or motor decoder and a sound decoder. According to several websites, the LGB 22801 may already be equipped with a driving decoder. You can thus add a sound decoder such as the Massoth S decoder. The S decoder is delivered with a Universal sound but it can be programmed with HSB sound from Massoth. The installation is relatively simple, and you would need to purchase the speaker separately. See KRS' post below for more information,particularly with reference to whether your has a decoder interface or a driving decoder.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You are running on "analog DC." You can run some sound cards on analog DC, but you won't have many options for triggering sound. QSI cards run on DC and QSI makes a DC controller that lets you trigger most of the card's sounds. It's explained here: (http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/q-engineer.html) 

So you would add a QSI sound/motor control card to your engines, and then put the QSI "quantum engineer" between your power packs and the track. 

I'm not sure about what you can do on DC with other cards. When I ran on DC I triggered the sounds with track magnets mostly. 

Some motor control boards also include sound. Some don't 

Aristo makes the "revolution" system, which will work on DC although not without some fussing. They are supposed to be introducing a combination sound/motor control card soon. But at present, if you wnet witht he aristo system, you would have to buy the aristo motor control card and a second sound card


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 08 Jun 2011 11:44 AM 
You are running on "analog DC." You can run some sound cards on analog DC, but you won't have many options for triggering sound. QSI cards run on DC and QSI makes a DC controller that lets you trigger most of the card's sounds. It's explained here: (http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/q-engineer.html) 
So you would add a QSI sound/motor control card to your engines, and then put the QSI "quantum engineer" between your power packs and the track. 
I'm not sure about what you can do on DC with other cards. When I ran on DC I triggered the sounds with track magnets mostly. 
Some motor control boards also include sound. Some don't 

Aristo makes the "revolution" system, which will work on DC although not without some fussing. They are supposed to be introducing a combination sound/motor control card soon. But at present, if you wnet witht he aristo system, you would have to buy the aristo motor control card and a second sound card 

I wouldn't worry too much about what sounds can be triggered in analog DC, after all, Kid... has bought a Digitrax 8 amp DCC system might as well working towards using its capabilities rather than spend extra $$$ on the "Quantum Engineer" or the Aristo Revolution system.

What I think is needed is a DCC sound decoder that offers HSB steam (and diesel? if there are Diesel engines) sound and also provides basic sound in analog DC operation during the transition period from DC to DCC. The other consideration would be ease of installation - DCC decoders thatconnect easily to the LGB DCC interface.


The only DCC sound decoders that come to mind as possibilities are ESU, Massoth and Zimo; QSI doesn't seem to have any European Steam sound, let alone HSB.
Any of those decoders should work fine with the Digitrax system and also in analog. 


Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By mbendebba on 08 Jun 2011 11:40 AM 
The Massoth xls is both a driving or motor decoder and a sound decoder. According to several websites, the LGB 22801 may already be equipped with a driving decoder.
Yes - looks as if there were at least three versions of it over the years according to the database, some with a decoder interface and some with a built-in motor decoder
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=816

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You purchased a Digitrax DCC system, and you have some locos with MTS, which can usually be controlled OK from any DCC system. Older LGB products run with (as compared to modern DCC) "strange" commands, like the function commands for sound, and older speed controls. Virtually ALL DCC systems will run ALL LGB equipped with MTS. Some sound systems would be more of a "pain" unless you used a DCC system that can handle the "serial function" on old decdoers. 

You will want to determine which decoders you have already, and it might be wise to update any that are still "serial function". 

In the short term, you should be able to run ANY MTS equipped locos with your Digitrax system... and you can find help on using your system here on this forum. There are a number of experts who have Digitrax systems, George Schreyer comes to mind. 

My advice is to check out what you have and think through where you want to go before buying a bunch of stuff. 

Regards, Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Oops--I made a mistake--I missed that you had the Digitrax system. My apologies


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

You guys are all awesome to take the time to help out! So let me go through what I have and see which locos have no decoders, built-in decoders, and MTS ready. In the meantime, just comparing the way the Digitraxx system functions vs. the Massoth system. Has anyone used both? Which radio throttle is easier to use? Here is why I ask. Like Greg said, before I go any further I'd like to make the best decision for what I want to use the system for, before I get heavily invested. Since I got the Digitraxx Super Chief Extra for only $300 brand new, and haven't used it yet, I still have the option to sell it and invest in a different system. I know Digitraxx seems to have a good name in DCC. What about Massoth? Since Massoth has the sound specific to the locos I am running, does it make more sense to use their entire system and stick with one brand rather than cherry-pick? Tech support is also important. Any feedback on that also? Almost forgot to add that the Massoth throttle has a wireless range of 300 feet, whereas with the Digitraxx I am tethered, unless I upgrade. Any thoughts on that also? Thanks!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zimo has European sounds and programmable decoders and these are available from a sponsor here Train-Li.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Graig: I have used Massoth's products for quite sometimes now and I extremely happy with the results. So much so, that upon retiring, I become a Massoth Factory authorized dealer. The Massoth system is comprehensive in scope, it offers the usual components of a DCC system as well other component that enhance your control of your layout. The Massoth wireless Navigator is exceptional, the advertised range is 300 feet, but some tests give it a range of 1000 feet. One of it most impressive feature is it ability to carry out automatic functions without the use of a computer. The central station has equally impressive credentials and comes in 2 flavors (8 amp Max and 12 amps). The system is NMRA and LGB MTS compatible. Most of the components are upgradeable via down loadable update, and tech and dealer support are second to none. I think you should give serious consideration.


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## ddevoto (Jan 22, 2008)

Graig, 
I have the "Heinz 57" of DCC Control. It consists of LGB MTS, 11 Digitrax DG583S loco decoders, 11 Phoenix sound decoders, and the Massoth Wireless Navigator. They all work together seamlessly. The Navigator is great very simple to use, I only wish it had a wrist tether.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One of the great advantages of DCC is the ability to use equipment from different manufacturers together. For 99% of the users this works great. There is some hardware that has unique features, the Zimo and Massoth are probably the best examples. They have added more features and are active in "extending" what you can do with DCC. 

I don't use macros, or mix DC operation with DCC and I don't use transponding. Any automated control will be done with a real computer and the free software from JMRI. 

So, I don't need/want these extra features. But, these extra features can be just the ticket for certain individuals, and then, in that case, you might want a Massoth DCC controller system if you are using the extended features from Massoth. The same reasoning would apply to Zimo. 

I personally like the ability to pick which decoder I want in each loco, and also which switch machine controllers. This way I can balance cost vs. features and it's my choice. 

My advice is that with the wide mix of decoders you have, and the fact you already own one of the top 5 DCC systems, just use it, and get your fleet converted to DCC. Later if you want to expand to more proprietary "extensions" to DCC, you can do that. But, buying another complete command station now would be unnecessary and premature in my opinion. 

You can get good advice and even support here for everything you have mentioned so far. 

Welcome! 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By kidzntoyz on 08 Jun 2011 10:02 PM 
You guys are all awesome to take the time to help out! So let me go through what I have and see which locos have no decoders, built-in decoders, and MTS ready. In the meantime, just comparing the way the Digitraxx system functions vs. the Massoth system. Has anyone used both? Which radio throttle is easier to use? Here is why I ask. Like Greg said, before I go any further I'd like to make the best decision for what I want to use the system for, before I get heavily invested. Since I got the Digitraxx Super Chief Extra for only $300 brand new, and haven't used it yet, I still have the option to sell it and invest in a different system. I know Digitraxx seems to have a good name in DCC. What about Massoth? Since Massoth has the sound specific to the locos I am running, does it make more sense to use their entire system and stick with one brand rather than cherry-pick? Tech support is also important. Any feedback on that also? Almost forgot to add that the Massoth throttle has a wireless range of 300 feet, whereas with the Digitraxx I am tethered, unless I upgrade. Any thoughts on that also? Thanks! 

Choosing a DCC system is going to be harder than choosing a decoder in your case.
For decoders there are not many integrated DCC sound decoders with HSB sound; I can only think of the three manufacturers I listed in my post above and I don't think ESU has any US presence, so for you as a "beginner" I would probably eliminate that one.

On the system side there are a lot more options.
A lot of people I know in North America use NCE, then there is Piko which is essentially a somewhat spec'd down version of Massoth but using pretty much the same throttle.
Zimo is working on a new DCC system which isn't available yet but I assume will have the latest technology and capability built into it.

Then there is CVP, Lenz and probably others I can't think of right now. 

No matter which way you go, you will need to invest a lot more than $300.- getting any of them.

I would suggest you use the Digitrax system you have for the time being and spend the money on good sound decoders and good speakers and a good installation - lots of "good" but with sound, the speaker and the way it's installed (baffled) is probably more imporatant than the sound itself. You can't improve crappy sound generated by a decoder but you can sure create crappy sound if you don't have a good speaker and installation.

"Cherry-picking" in DCC is fine. That's what DCC is all about - compatibility of any DCC sustem with and DCC decoder. Just remember that there are many functions and capabilities that are manufacturer specific, those will only work if both the decoder and system manufacturer has implemented them the same way and to the same extent.

For me, on any DCC system, the throttle was always the most important part. If I didn't like it or it didn't feel comfortable, it didn't matter how great the rest of the system was - it was still a non-starter.
There are also some other developments happening on DCC right now - both system related like bi-directional (Lenz calls it Railcom) operation and also on the user end with throttles like the one based on smart phones, like this one:
http://www.withrottle.com/WiThrottle/Home.html
or this one
http://www.touchcab.com/

All reasons to perhaps wait a year or two with a new system purchase considering you already have one that should be perfectly adequate for now.


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

Great advice from everyone! You're right, especially based on cost and what is happening in DCC right now (like using an iphone for commands is very exciting) I shall stick with what I already have (Digitraxx). And great advice on getting the sound to "sound" better with good speakers and baffling! Based on the actual sound examples, I think I will go with Massoth eMotion XLS decoder. The sound is recorded from the actual Harz 99-6001 loco in Germany, (which I rode in 2006) and is the loco that I want to convert first anyway. Shourt Line has a programming device called the "Sproug" which allows you to use your computer to program the loco. The software also allows you to run two locos from your computer. This runs $95. Any thoughts? I have heard that programming through the Digitraxx can sometimes be difficult. And it would be fun for my kids to have their own small line to run themselves (with my oversite, of course). Any thoughts on this device, the "Sproug"? Also, added power and protection. http://www.shourtline.swl4.com/SL-PS200-1-27F.html Is this something I should invest in? Greg, I have seen some debate about protecting the line from shorts, spikes, etc. Can you fill me in on protecting my investment? Thanks!!


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2008)

Regarding the Sprog: it is a small unit (size of a small Milky Way); it plugs into a serial port on a PC to interface to free JMRI software. The other
end goes to your programming track.
I use it to program, since you can directly reference all registers. 
No tricky virtualization that some units do when they try to "help" you. 
You can also operate very low amp trains through it. 
If you can find a downstream device to boost the amperage without altering the digital signal that the Sprog puts out (vendor opportunity), you could run higher amperage stuff.

Chip


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe George Schreyer uses the sprog with the JMRI (decoder pro) software himself. Hopefully he will pop up on this thread. His site is well worth going through. 

I use meanwell power supplies, you will see it on my DCC pages... 

Not sure if you are talking about short circuit protection, your link shows a whole lot of stuff on that page. The short circuit protection in your Digitrax will be fine for now. 

The thing that can really help in shorts is fuses / protection between the track pickups front and rear... when a loco derails on a switch, often there is a short circuit between the front and rear trucks, and that can damage wiring. 

Aristo puts their "polyfuses" in strategic locations to help prevent this. It's a good idea. There's another manufacturer who uses "skates" and had plastic centered wheels on steamers, and shorts would often melt them. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jun 2011 12:51 PM 
The thing that can really help in shorts is fuses / protection between the track pickups front and rear... when a loco derails on a switch, often there is a short circuit between the front and rear trucks, and that can damage wiring.

Very good idea!
A friend of mine just fried the board on an Aristo SD-45 diesel when it derailed.

The DCC system didn't shut off since the current draw was only 11 amps, the system was a 12 amp system, the derailment happened in an area not readily visible and my friend was busy operating another consist at the time.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did not understand all the polyfuses in the Aristo locos until I started reading of fried wires and pickup shoe housings and motherboards... and then put 2 and 2 together. (Warning, not all Aristo locos are fully protected, so check yours first) 

I'd like to find a better solution, since the 3 amp polyfuses do use a little current and will get warm at 2 amps... but putting 4 blade fuses in a loco and making them accessible externally is a bit much... though thinking about it, it could be done on the underside of most diesels. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2008)

To hear HSB sounds from Massoth, Zimo, and another, use this link:

http://www.gartenbahnprofi.de/Service-+-Termine/Downloads/1,000000202388,8,1 


Don't need to know too much German to point and click.

Chip


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Nice try Chip, but this is the diesel HSB engine that Piko brought out last year (not the Steam loco we're talking about) 
http://www.gbdb.info/details.php?image_id=2515 

Regardless, thanks for the link - nice to hear a comparison; would be even nicer if they had included a sound clip of the original for comparison. 
The Dietz Micro is only a sound module, doesn't include the DCC motor decoder part like the others. 
If your DCC decoder has a SUSI interface you could just add that sound module via that interface.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jun 2011 03:45 PM 
I did not understand all the polyfuses in the Aristo locos until I started reading of fried wires and pickup shoe housings and motherboards... and then put 2 and 2 together. (Warning, not all Aristo locos are fully protected, so check yours first) 

I'd like to find a better solution, since the 3 amp polyfuses do use a little current and will get warm at 2 amps... but putting 4 blade fuses in a loco and making them accessible externally is a bit much... though thinking about it, it could be done on the underside of most diesels. 

Regards, Greg 
What about a 3 amp mini circuit breaker?
Just drill a hole at the appropriate place on the underside of the loco to mount it - all you would see is the small reset button.
A unit something like this:

http://www.cablesandconnectors.com/24500-24.HTM


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

So how do I know how many amps my loco is using? I checked on that 3Amp circuit breaker, will it react quick enough to protect the electronics?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By kidzntoyz on 09 Jun 2011 08:53 PM 
So how do I know how many amps my loco is using? I checked on that 3Amp circuit breaker, will it react quick enough to protect the electronics? 
The link I posted was just to illustrate the type of mini breaker I was thinking of, I didn't mean to suggest that the trip characteristics of that particular one would be suitable.
And the intent of the breaker (or fuse or polyswitch) is to protect the wiring and the pickups and the copper conductors on the PCB, not the electronics.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The electronics don't really need protection, unless your motors short dead, which is unusual. 

Knut, you missed the part where I said "4" ... too much space, and ideally you would have 6... 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jun 2011 11:52 PM 

Knut, you missed the part where I said "4" ... too much space, and ideally you would have 6... 

Greg 
You're right!
I read the "4" but it didn't register since I didn't think Aristo would put four polyfuses into each loco.

Do you have a sketch or schematic where they put them? Two in each motor block?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zimo hand helds will display command station voltage and current outputs. Very useful when troubleshooting.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Craig:


I think you should set up it without any fuses or any other protection devices, put on the track and play with it, watch you layout carefully and made adjustments as necessary.  I have been playing with trains for 35 years and the only mishaps I have ever had where those due to my inattention, mostly by allowing my children and grandchildren to control the layout without supervision.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, sometimes there are even more! 

The ideal would be to put one at EACH wheel pickup, so a short between wheels on one truck would be protected... but that would be 8 or 12 per loco alone. 

The thing that works well is to cover the situation where the derailment makes a short between the front and rear truck, like what happens commonly on a switch. 

So you want a polyfuse on each track pickup lead on each truck, there's your 4... and 1 more on the motor (only need one)... now since Aristo has their "mu cable" for external power, they often put 2 more on this cable, although by rights you would put 2 at each "end" of the loco... 

For me, the 5 is enough to handle 99% of the situations. Since the polyfuses are self-resetting, they work pretty well, although you cannot run 3 amps continuously through a 3 amp rated one, so 5 amp ones are what I recommend. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm a little confused here--not sure why all these fuses are necessary? If there is a short why isn't the central station shutting down the system? My Massoth will shut down power long before anything has time to melt down--it's pretty much instantaneous. Or are you talking about some sort of internal shorting? 

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Keith, 

It's these "resistive" shorts that are the problem. 
In the specific situation I mentioned briefly earlier where the one SD-45 derailed, the central station was a Massoth 12 amp unit and the current draw after the derailment was 11 amps, so nothing shut down and the operator (who was controlling another train at the time, didn't notice anything was wrong until he saw the smoke coming out of the SD-45....and it wasn't smoke from the smoke generator. 

Greg - one would think that there is a better way to provide some additional protection other than by adding polyfuses all over the place. 
For a starter, maybe use a bit heavier wiring and copper paths on the board that can handle a, say 15 amp, short circuit current for a short while without going up in smoke. 
Is any other manufacturer using any protection like the polyfuses that Aristocraft uses? I'm not aware of that type of protection on any LGB or USA Trains engines......and I'm also not aware that they have a major problem with wiring and boards getting destroyed when a loco derails.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut has it exactly Keith... and I run a 10 amp system with a breaker that really comes on at 20. (I'll be adding "smart" breakers tuned to a lower amp) 

Knut, the problem with increasing the gauge of the wire is that it causes a different problem, now the weak points are the traces on the circuit board and/or the smaller components in the motor blocks involved in picking up the power. 

For example, in an Aristo 2 axle motor block (not the GP40), a very thin wire is touching the ball bearing on an axle and feeds power back. A short just overheats the wire to the point that it melts into the plastic housing... you cannot increase the size of the wire. In Aristo steamers, a thin wire rides the top of the motor block that connects the pickup straps inside the block... again difficult to impossible to replace. 

And you can definitely fry the wring in LGB and USAT (don't ask me how I know ha ha). 

MTH has had it's share of problems, they have multiple pickups and skates... 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Keith - to elaborate on this in a more general sense. 
In a power distribution system, the equipment, wiring etc. downstream of a fuse/breaker/over current protection should be designed to handle that protections current trip point - so in typical housewiring as an example, the main breakers or fuses are usually 200 amps at the service box where the power comes in, wiring, connectors etc. between the service box and the fuse distribution panel (with the 15 and 20 and 30 amp fuses) is designed to handle the 200 amps, then from each 15 or 20 amp breaker, the wiring and receptacles etc. downstream from that are designed to handle the 15 or 20 amp breaker current - for 15 amps 14 gauge (minimum) cable is required, for 20 amps it's 12 gauge. 
Then in electronic equipment, a stereo amplifier for instance, there is often a 3 amp fuse somewhere in the AC power feed. 

With DCC the protection is at the central station level only, no protection at the "component", ie loco level. 
Dividing the layout into power sections with individual protection which is often done defeats the whole purpose of DCC - being able to run a number of trains anywhere on the layout at the same time - the proper theoretical protection would be in each loco but that presents a problem because of the multiple power pick up points locos typically have. 

Anyway - an interesting subject. I wonder if the "Wiring for DCC" web site discusses that. 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting....I think I see what the difference is; maybe because my system is only 5A I've never had a situation where a loco was shorting but the system kept supplying power. Mine seems really 'trigger happy' and even a major rolling stock derailment has set mine off. I can see though that if the amperage draw is much higher the differential because of one loco shorting is much less it is for a smaller output station like mine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Exactly Keith, when you get up to 10 amps and above supply capability, it's not hard to find a short that will draw over 5 amps, but not trip the breaker. 

My solution is to break my layout up into 3 or 4 power districts, all having a lower limit (10 amps), than having one 25 amp circuit... unfortunately, I have a favorite train that draws 9.7 amps normally... it's the 10 car lit passenger train with 3 E8's up a 3.5% grade. 

So, I have to make the locos withstand the short, and leave the track power limited to over 10 amps. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

So for the central stations what you need is for the station to detect a sudden increase in current draw, regardless of amperage. I would think that would be easy to implement wouldn't it? 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are indeed "smart" DCC "breakers" out there, first prompted by what happened when sound systems first came out, many had a capacitor right after the DCC to DC full wave bridge, i.e. turn on the layout and there was a big current surge as these caps "filled up" from empty. 

This was often interpreted as a short by the system, which would shut off track power, then try to come on again, and the cycle would repeat, sometimes endlessly... 

I use the DCC Specialties PSX series and it seems to be pretty "intelligent"... 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 10 Jun 2011 11:44 AM 
So for the central stations what you need is for the station to detect a sudden increase in current draw, regardless of amperage. I would think that would be easy to implement wouldn't it? 

Keith 
That is beeing pushed as a "major" feature of the old Zimo system by some Zimo users.
Don't know if other DCC system manufacturers have implemented something like that, it's information not readily available.

Any additional circuitry like that will cost extra money, so it's always a trade-off on what gets implemented and what not - it's not a question of the technical side of implementation, rather a question about dollars and cents.

But even if you do implement circuitry that detects a sudden increase in current draw, there are still limits on what it can detect.
A while back when I was monitoring the current draw (in DC) of a typical passenger train using a high-quality analog meter to get a good indication of the variations, I was surprised to what degree the current draw fluctuated as the train went around the layout.

Going uphill, the draw increased as expected but even on level ground the current draw fluctuated more than I expected, so any trip circuit that monitors the rate of change of current needs to allow for that so it doesn't trip inadvertently.
Also, if the normal operational current draw is say 10 amps, pretty reasonable with two or three trains, and the the "short" brings it up to 11 amps, that's probably not more of a difference than what could see under normal operation so even a more sophisticated short-circuit detection wouldn't trigger.

This is one area where getting accurate technical information for each DCC system on the market is next to impossible.


Knut

PS: how about this for a potential solution now with bi-directional communication?
Hold-up capacitor in the loco (which many people add anyways) to keep the decoder powered for a few seconds even if the track voltage drops to zero.

Feed back the actual speed of the loco to the Central Station via the bi-directional link.
Compare that actual speed to the speed setting in the Central Station.
If they don't match within some tolerance, shut down the power to the track.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, a cool idea you have there... the possibilities are pretty limitless when you can put a small program in charge of deciding things. 

I don't have the complete algorithm of how the PSX series analyzes overcurrent situations, but I know it's way better than just a straight detection of overcurrent. 

By the way, to the original poster: I hope we have not derailed your thread too much, we kind of took your question to a depth you probably weren't really interested in!! 

Greg


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks for the thought Greg! I'm just sitting back and taking it all in  The initial amount of information is fairly overwhelming in regards to DCC. I'm going to stick with the Digitraxx I have, I am going to get a Sproug to make sure I have the easiest time in programming, the Massoth Decoder "sounds" best to me for this particular loco, and next Saturday I am driving to LA to visit my brother and take a class, "DCC 101", which is being offered by Jim at Shourt Line. We will be doing "hands on" sound and lighting installations. You guys have all helped immensely !!! Thank you for all the input !! After the class I will be back with more thoughts and questions, I'm sure! In the meantime, I will make sure NEVER to derail, until one of you comes up with a easy solution for not melting our trains! ;-) Craig


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB does use poly fuses in the newer locos at the power connection for feeding passenger car lights. 

I have seen this in the 2-4-0 tender and in some other units.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 11 Jun 2011 05:32 AM 
LGB does use poly fuses in the newer locos at the power connection for feeding passenger car lights.

Yes Dan, but that is for a somewhat different purpose so I didn't want to mention it so as to not confuse the issue.

LGB added this "multi-purpose" socket to their locos early in the game, around 1974 or so.
The purpose was to power passenger car lights as you stated and also the sound box cars that LGB came out with. The wiring and connector current capacity was laid out for that purpose.

What people then decided to do, and I think at one point LGB actually endorsed that officially, is to also use that connection to provide additional power feeds from a trailing car with power pick-ups back to the motor in the loco, especially useful for two-axle locos that sometimes had trouble making it across switches with insulated frogs at low speed.
When the multi-purpose connector was used to feed power to the loco motor, the current through the connector and the associated wiring was much greater than initially planned, particularly in a fault condition, and over current protection was added to the multi-porpose connector wiring to protect it.

However, I didn't know that LGB now use polyfuses; I think initially they actually used a normal fuse.
Dan - any idea what the value or product code of the polyfuse is?


Knut


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Boy, this was a long thread. 

With the Digitrax system, you will be able to do most anything that the decoders can do except for some manufacturer specific extensions. Not to worry, it'll work fine. 

When you convert your DC locos to DCC, you'll want to use a combination motor/sound decoder, they are much easier to deal with than a separate motor decoder and sound system, usually less expensive too. 

Your selection of what kind of decoder will depend on the available sounds. Pick one that has the sound that you want. Look to QSI, Zimo, Massoth and ESU for combo decoders that have enough audio power for use outdoors. If you run indoors, then you can use the larger Digitrax decoders and an SFX004 SoundBug add on. The SoundBug has less audio power and is very marginal for out of doors. 

The Digitrax command station will program them all if you have a DT402 throttle. You will only need a SPROG II if you use a "difficult" decoder such as a Tsunami which does not accept programming from a standard programming track. 

Pick a single decoder and try it. If you like it, get more from the same source. If not, try a different source. 

- gws


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Sorry to chime in a little late in the thread.

First of all I would taker a look at this youtube video:

HSB 2-10-2 with TrueSound DCC

This sound is done as an orginal detailed recording and then taken into the studio to me impelemented to perfection. Without the chuff synchronized smoke TrueSound DCC decoder from ZIMO cost 178 and the one that supplies the correct outputs for chuff sysnchronized smoke cost $199.

The new MX695 series is the best decoder on the market. It DC and DCC characterics is definately above the rest. If you want e.g. front and rear decouplers (with ProLine Decouplers for example) then ZIMO offers 4 servo controls, which is unmatched in the market.

We have so far about 10 of hte new generation installed for analog as well as DCC and Ima impressed 6A continous and 10A peak. One of the strongest decoders on the market. The new analog characteristics are as such that you can have permanent sound while the engine is standing still.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The nice thing with HSB is that it'seasy to compare the sound of the REAL thing to the various sound decoders and sound modules. 

There are tons of videos on the net - here is one that covers the whole trip to the Brocken (it's in two parts): 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeMKzUQP-c4&feature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pubXN7tS6JI&feature=related


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## kidzntoyz (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks, Axel! I checked it out and the sound was quite convincing. I took the ride from Wernigerode to the Brocken and back, I believe, in 2005 or so. If you enjoy steam, it is a paradise!


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