# kitbashing/superdetailing an LGB Mogul



## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Anyone got any suggestions for how to improve the appearance of LGB's Moguls? They are fantastic running engines (although weak pullers) but some (I'm thinking in particular like the 2119 LG&B bumblebee one) look like their a little short on the details (I don't know a ton about the mechanics of steam engines so I can't say what parts are missing but it just looks kinda plain). I'm a little more satisfied with the look of the 23192 C&S bear trap model, which is our other main use mogul, but am open to other suggestions there as well.

along those lines, anything that can be done to make them look more like D&RGW style engines (I realize the D&RGW never really operated Moguls so don't have particular prototype to follow just a general look)? I fee like that LGB coal tender needs to be either substantially modified (ie chop that middle section off and bring it down to the same height of the rest of the tender) or be swapped out entirely. For the latter, I'm thinking either a Bachmann Big Hauler tender or the tender from an LGB wood burning Mogul with the wood load swapped out for coal might look better. Ever attempted anything like that? Have pics?


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I've always thought the front of the LGB mogul looks similar to D&RGW C-18 and C-19s. Sort of like #315.











So an easy way to detail the front of an LGB mogul to look more like a D&RGW steamer would be to add class lights.

Ozark Miniatures has non operating class lights. 












Ozark Miniatures class lights 



If you are looking to have ones that can light up, Trackside Details has these.











Trackside Details class lights (TD-76) 



I've used both, and both are easy to install.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm, a rather open ended question. How much work, and/or money do you want to get into? 
1. Air pump, lines and tanks 
2. Dynamo 
3. class lights (as mentioned above) btw standard colors are out-regular scheduled, white- extra, green-another section following -- so non-working ones are just fine if your RR runs by a timetable.
4. brake cylinders and rigging 
5. spark arrestor 
6. snowplow 
7. better coal load 
8. light weathering, if not a total repaint 

A bunch of the detail stuff here is more or less standard practice and can be transferred to the mogul 
http://www.the-ashpit.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=277


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

haha it was intentionally an open ended question. I wanted to see what other people had done. Money is definitely an issue, as is skill (I'm pretty new to kitbashing or modifying stuff), time is not. I think the classification lights and maybe the spark arrestor are definitely good starting points. I'll have to study the sides of those engines more before I attempt brakes, air tanks, pumps, or the rest. Suggestions on where to find a better looking coal load? anyone tried a tender swap?


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

If the coal load unscrews, you're in like Flynn.... If not, take a dremel, cut vertically along the edge of the existing coal load and remove it. Then modify the bunker, the coal load or both so you can re-install it lowered by about 1/2" - you also might have to glue wood blocks underneath to hold it in place.... At this point I will also often use a bead of silicon sealant around the lower edges of the coal load to help make it waterproof


Then give the plastic coal load a coating of regular white glue, and sprinkle a thin layer of aquarium charcoal over it...... Some folks use real coal, but I have fish and I'm too lazy to smash and sift it.


If you want more coal (charcoal), use good old diluted white glue with a drop of dish detergent to hold it.(Might be a good idea if you have electronics in the tender to do this with the shell off...)


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks for the great link MIK. Matt, on those class lights from Trackside, where do you get the glass bezels and what do you use for bulbs, grain of wheat or 1.5 mm LED's? Thanx. 

Ed


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By ORD23 on 08 Jan 2011 11:53 PM 
Matt, on those class lights from Trackside, where do you get the glass bezels and what do you use for bulbs, grain of wheat or 1.5 mm LED's? Thanx. 

Ed 
The Trackside class lights come with thin plastic "glass". I guess the best way to describe it is like a drinking straw cut to fit inside the class light housing. Just slips in behind and looks like glass. Quite effective.


For bulbs, I used 3mm golden white LEDs that I purchased from Ulrich Models. I use these LEDs for headlights and had some extras so I used the extras for the class lights. At least I think I used these. My locos are in Colorado (I'm in California) so I can't check them to be sure. I had some tiny surface mount LEDs also from Ulrich that I may have used. Although I doubt it since I know I used these for an HO scale Amtrak P42. As far as I remember I used the 3mm LEDs, but just wanted to let you know in case my memory is off.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Many years ago, when LGB first made the red and green mogul, 2018 (their first attempt at an American style engine), I bought it when it came out, even though I didn't like the 19th century style. At Caboose hobbies in Denver I was able to buy an electric headlight, and brass domes and smoke stack. These allowed me to modernize it to my liking. I also got rid of the wood load and built a new top to the tender and added a coal load.






















The coal loads in the LGB mogul tenders is held in by a couple of tabs. Gently insert a screw driver or knife along the side of the coal load and gently pop it off.

Shortly after I made the modifications to this engine, they came out with the more modern version with the look that I wanted all along.

Chuck N


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Most Rio Grande locomotives (though not all, looking at the pic of 315 above) had a rectangular number plate on the front of the smokebox instead of a round one, so that's one small detail that will go a long way towards capturing the D&RGW look. Changing the pilot to either a D&RGW-style boiler tube pilot (I believe Precision Scale does one in 1:22.5) or snowplow pilot will also help.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By rwjenkins on 09 Jan 2011 12:40 PM 
Most Rio Grande locomotives (though not all, looking at the pic of 315 above) had a rectangular number plate on the front of the smokebox instead of a round one, so that's one small detail that will go a long way towards capturing the D&RGW look.

Most of the larger class locos had the rectangular plate. Most of the smaller classes, which the LGB mogul works better as, had round plates. However the C-16's that survived 268 and 278 have rectangular plates, although I think 223 might still have a round one. Only way to tell is to look at a prototype photo in the era you're modeling to be sure. 



This post reminded me that this summer I'll have to install class lights and some other details on my moguls. I have the parts, just haven't worked on the moguls yet. They used to be the workhorses but haven't got much use lately after some larger K class locos arrived.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Lots of good information, pics, and links here. I've had arguments with myself over the number plates. the square ones are definitely a part of the D&RGW look but as Matt points out, it would have been more prototypical for a loco the mogul's size to have a round one. Our layout's space/time continuum is all off. Most of our rolling stock is lettered for the D&RGW and is in their style/color scheme which puts us at least 1920's. However, my grandfather likes a Wild West theme a lot, so all the structures and figures he does tend to look like they're right out of the 1880's. Chuck, the origin's of your Mogul are amusing to consider. If you hadn't told us, I would have assumed you just combined the cab and tender of a wood burning mogul with the chassis and boiler of a coal burner. Very well done. 

Looking at that last photo of Matt's, the stock height of the coal deck looks allright, it's the back of the tender that almost looks low. From what I remember in a lot of the pictures of small Rio Grande engine's I've seen, it seems like they made the tender rather tall in proportion to the locomotive, coming up almost to cab height. Perhaps instead of getting a new tender, it might look better just to extend the height of the rear of the tender.. 

Precision Scale doesn't list their products online so I'll have to look into buying the catalog.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

check out this 2119d on ebay. Trying to figure out if thats the wood tender or if he chopped the top on the coal one. Looking at the rivets, I think its the latter. Unfortunately we can't see the top to see exactly what was done. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/LGB-2119-D-MOGU...445403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2c5a0e441b


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Has anyone changed out the couplers on the engine and tender, maybe with some type of draw bar. I don't care much for the set up, although it's never come undone. 

Ed


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By ORD23 on 13 Jan 2011 09:56 PM 
Has anyone changed out the couplers on the engine and tender, maybe with some type of draw bar. I don't care much for the set up, although it's never come undone. 

Ed what do you mean a draw bar?


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

anyone have the dimensions on the LGB American tender (by American I mean the generic tender that I think originally came with the 2-4-0. I don't think it will look right with the Moguls but just was wondering if anyone had paired it or had the dimenions (Lxwxh) so I could try to get an idea of how it would look.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

This one? 









8-1/2"L. 4-3/8"W. 5"T top of bunker


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB tender behind a Bachmann 4-6-0 , and I am looking for the pic of it behind a LGB mogul 2-6-0 
Could not find the other pic yet . 

but heres another with the Bachmann , doesn't look bad with either loco .


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## takevin (Apr 25, 2010)

Posted By TJH on 11 Jan 2011 10:40 AM 
check out this 2119d on ebay. Trying to figure out if thats the wood tender or if he chopped the top on the coal one. Looking at the rivets, I think its the latter. Unfortunately we can't see the top to see exactly what was done. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/LGB-2119-D-MOGU...445403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2c5a0e441b 
Really, looks like coal by the pics to me.


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

TJH, a draw bar is just a piece of metal about 4" or 5" by 1/4" wide that has a hole on both ends. One hole is for mounting to your engine, and the other hole accepts a post that is mounted on the tender. Hope that helps. 

Ed


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Mik and Dennis good pics both. that's the tender I'm talking about. Doesn't look nearly as off as I thought it might (actually looks great with that Big Hauler) so definitely something else to think about. Dennis, if you have pics of it with a Mogul that would be great too. 

ORD I have no experience adding anything like that to our Moguls. Never had any problems with the factory couplers. We did do something like that on our Connie to Kay conversion and it's been a challenge making it work right (but in that case we were also swapping tenders which was what necessitated the new coupling to begin with).


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

Hey guys, here is my Mogul- slightly modified. 

I normally have a bear trap on it but wanted some change, it may be back some day.. 





 




The only things I changed were- 

Homemade plow from brass sheet bolted to frame 
Different headlight 
Different whistle and safeties 
Added curtains 
Coal load 

That's it. In my opinion it made quite a difference. 

Hope this helps 
Matt


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

After looking at a bunch of pictures it appears that there was no "standard" look to the tenders these engines used. In fact you'll find the same locomotive pictured with a bunch of different style tenders on it so it appears they got switched out. Anyone know how the backs of the tenders were numbered when they had the herald lettering? I know when it had the Flying Rio Grande style, the loco number was printed in large font on the back. Was it the same if you had the toilet seat style as well? I don't see any pics of engines and tenders from the back with that. 

I was thinking about adding a tool box and that does seem to be on some of them. Also on the black Mogul, might not be a bad idea to go ahead and paint the outside of the wheel white, although not sure how that will look with the rim already being shiny metal. 

Matt Z that engines looks great. How did you do the curtains? Is weathering painted? I'm assuming that's the 23192 model.


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

Hey the curtains are shreds from an old t-shirt I had lying in my garage. This loco has been painted, dull coated, painted, glossed, dull coated who knows how many times lol. The latest is dull coat with weathering chalks and a little air brush work. 

The # is 23191. Not sure the difference. This one came black, unlettered when I got it. 

The giant flanges have always bothered me a bit- I have tried a lot of different things like painting them and evening trying to blacken them. But being stainless, blackening won't work. 

I have had this loco for a long time, and it is my fail-proof loco. If I have any doubt on the track I'm going to this is the one I bring just becuase I know it will run well, and kinks in the track hardly affect it at all. 

Matt


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Matt Z on 18 Jan 2011 11:30 AM 
Hey the curtains are shreds from an old t-shirt I had lying in my garage. This loco has been painted, dull coated, painted, glossed, dull coated who knows how many times lol. The latest is dull coat with weathering chalks and a little air brush work. 

The # is 23191. Not sure the difference. This one came black, unlettered when I got it. 

The giant flanges have always bothered me a bit- I have tried a lot of different things like painting them and evening trying to blacken them. But being stainless, blackening won't work. 

I have had this loco for a long time, and it is my fail-proof loco. If I have any doubt on the track I'm going to this is the one I bring just becuase I know it will run well, and kinks in the track hardly affect it at all. 

Matt 23192 was already lettered for C&S as number 8. I think it was LGB's first beartrap Mogul. I saw pictures of a couple other model locos with the stainless flanges and the white rims painted on and they didn't look too shabby so I might go ahead and do that. Need to see if the side rods and driving rods should be powdercoated black though or left silver (assuming I don't weather the rest of the engine). I'm with you about the dead solid reliable running characteristics of the engine. I've got 3 and two in particular are our workhorses. They go everywhere we go to run trains and pull anything, freight or passenger. Only two complaints with them are the lack of detail (although the bear trap one I have actually looks pretty good, its the wood burner and the 2119 that need help) and weak pulling power whenever you throw some grades and curves at them.


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By TJH on 15 Jan 2011 08:42 AM 
anyone have the dimensions on the LGB American tender (by American I mean the generic tender that I think originally came with the 2-4-0. I don't think it will look right with the Moguls but just was wondering if anyone had paired it or had the dimenions (Lxwxh) so I could try to get an idea of how it would look. 
Hi TJH,

See what you think:



















http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0011a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0012a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0013a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0014a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0011a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0015a.JPG
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je..._0016a.JPG

The 2-4-0 tender probably looks larger than normal because it is unpainted and undecorated.

Actually LGB produced the 22194 SP Mogul with the tender from the SP 2-4-0 (and I have seen photos of locos with similar small Vanderbilt tenders):








:

Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By TJH on 11 Jan 2011 10:40 AM 
check out this 2119d on ebay. Trying to figure out if thats the wood tender or if he chopped the top on the coal one. Looking at the rivets, I think its the latter. Unfortunately we can't see the top to see exactly what was done. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/LGB-2119-D-MOGU...445403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2c5a0e441b 

It is the standard 2119d coal tender. If it was a wood tender there would be skirts around the top of the tender:










Jerry


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Matt Z on 18 Jan 2011 11:30 AM 
The giant flanges have always bothered me a bit- I have tried a lot of different things like painting them and evening trying to blacken them. But being stainless, blackening won't work. 

Matt 

Hi Matt,

The flanges/wheel rims are not stainless steel. They are plated brass.

Perhaps this info will help.

Jerry


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a former 2028D that I modified several years ago. Sorry, but I don't have a pic of the other side readily available. I used a number of Ozark parts on the locomotive, including a tapered stack, air pump, headlight, number plate, generator,check valves, drifting valves, whistle and pop valves, and marker lights. To get the D&RGW look, I also added a horizontal grab rail across the smokebox, built up a new pilot, and added a small rectangular platform and curved handrail on the fireman's side of the smokebox front. Note the toolbox added to the pilot deck. There is appropriate piping and conduits to each of the appliances. The headlight and marker lights are illuminated by LGB's 5 V. circuitry. The marker lamps actually have 12 V. "grain of rice" bulbs, which give off a nice, soft glow at 5 V. Though you can't tell from the photo, there's a detailed cab interior as well.

The tender got new sideboards, the air tank was moved to the deck just behind the coal bunker, and wrap-around vertical extensions added to the top of the water legs. The coal load was simulated with Woodland Scenics "Talus" bonded and colored with Floquil PollyScale Engine Black. The tender corner steps were replaced with Ozark castings. 
After more than 10 years, this is still one of my most reliable locomotives. Still hard to find a match for the legendary LGB quality!


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

Hey Ed, that looks fantastic nice work! 

Jerry, thanks. Whatever they are plated in still wouldn't take the blackener- darn it! Got any ideas for changing their tone? 

Matt


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Jerry, thanks for posting those pictures. Ed, that engine looks fantastic. I definitely have something to go off of. Any other pics you have of her would definitely be appreciated. How did you get that horizontal grab rail on the smokebox? was it another detail part or did you fabricate it?


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TJH on 18 Jan 2011 11:24 PM 
How did you get that horizontal grab rail on the smokebox? was it another detail part or did you fabricate it? 
Did you want one? I think I have one in my junk box... just gotta figure out how to get it to you without breaking, as I think it's blackened potmetal


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## Jerrys RR (Jun 28, 2010)

Posted By Matt Z on 18 Jan 2011 09:24 PM 
Hey Ed, that looks fantastic nice work! 

Jerry, thanks. Whatever they are plated in still wouldn't take the blackener- darn it! Got any ideas for changing their tone? 

Matt 

Hi Matt,

The only thing I can think of would be a black felt tip pen but I have never tried it. Personally I love the plating because that is a major reason why LGB locos run so well. The very smooth and very conductive plating combined with the superior quality of the carbon brushes etc. on LGB locos results in them running far better on marginal track than other brand locomotives do.

I have replaced metal wheels on various cabooses, tenders etc. with LGB's ball bearing wheel sets both because of improved performance and the fact that (to me) they look far better but I do admit that the plating is less prototypical. What's important is what you want but I've never tried doing what you want to do.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

As to the horizontal handrail, I fabricated it with help from Ozark. Their P/N 0213 is a double handrail post. I just cut off the upper "head" and rounded the remaining head. A piece of 3/64" brass wire completed the assembly. Two holes drilled in the smokebox door, a light touch of epoxy on the base of each post, and, "Voila"! Here's the other side of the locomotive which shows the air pump and more of the piping/conduit detail.










Sister locomotive #39, which is based on the 23191 Mogul, got a similar front-end treatment. It's in the "backshop" now getting other detail upgrades.


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## Matt Z (Dec 2, 2009)

Hey Jerry, I use all battery so at this point the conductivity come into play. 

I have tried the marker- no luck. It just wears off within a couple of minutes. Oh well, if that's the only complaint I can think of for the loco, we're sitting pretty well! LOL 

Matt


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ed, what did you use for the junction boxes on top of the cab roof. I recently picked up some trackside electrical boxes and they are just too huge. BTW, which pic of engine 38 is the latest, brown roof or black? Thx, 

Ed


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ORD23 on 20 Jan 2011 12:04 AM 
Ed, what did you use for the junction boxes on top of the cab roof. I recently picked up some trackside electrical boxes and they are just too huge. BTW, which pic of engine 38 is the latest, brown roof or black? Thx, 

Ed I made the junction boxes out of scraps of styrene. You're right... the TS castings just looked too big. The boxes are bits of .080" sq. strip, .125" long, with thin slices of .0625 tubing at each point where conduits enter the boxes. This latter bit simulates conduit connectors. The conduits are held off of the roof surface by tiny bits of plastic, secured by clamps made from .005" brass shim stock. The conduits themselves are made from 3/64" dia. brass rod.

The pic with the red roof is the later one. Periodically, most everything warrants a trip back through the paint shop!


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Mik on 19 Jan 2011 01:25 AM 
Posted By TJH on 18 Jan 2011 11:24 PM 
How did you get that horizontal grab rail on the smokebox? was it another detail part or did you fabricate it? 
Did you want one? I think I have one in my junk box... just gotta figure out how to get it to you without breaking, as I think it's blackened potmetal 
When you figure it out, I'll take it . Thank you.

Ed, thanks for the additional pictures. Engine looks great. I've got a lot to work with now.


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## ORD23 (Jan 2, 2010)

Appreciate the info on the electrical piping. One more question if you don't mind, your air line on the pilot of #38, did you bend the brass rod under the cylilnder and how was it secured? Thanks much. 

Ed


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

The air line pipe is 1/16" dia. brass rod, and was bent to go back across the pilot deck and then turned upwards and back, to where it "disappears" between the smokebox saddle and the valve chest on top of the cylinders. The assembly is secured to the pilot deck. This arrangement allows me to separate the frame assembly easily from the boiler and superstructure. In prototype practice, it would run back into the cab to the train line brake valve, but for ease of disassembly, I left part of it out. Not really noticeable unless you go hunting for it.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It occurred to me that you might get some ideas from a LGB Mogul that I bought off eBay a few years ago.

The Mogul started out as a 27192 D&RGW Mogul like this (but new):










It was advertised as factory original as new and I checked with the guy before bidding but it had been repainted and extensively modified. The modifications were done extremely well but unfortunately for me and for the seller it did not meet the bid description.

This is what it looks like now (a few years later and a couple of the parts have been lost or damaged (which is why I wanted a factory original loco).










I have marked the changes I noticed (there may be others) but I have no idea where the guy who did the work got the parts.















































There is always a question (if it is important to the owner) of whether such modifications add or detract from the value. In my case in spite of the very nice work done I asked for and got a partial refund because what was most important to me was that the new parts were more likely to be broken or to fall off than the original plastic parts and if the black boiler gets scratched the green paint underneath will show through. Many folks love weathering but I prefer my locos to look like they just left the factory.

Still, the unknown guy who did the work (it was his friend who sold the loco for him on eBay) deserves credit for a very nice job.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TJH on 07 Jan 2011 09:53 PM 
the 2119 LG&B bumblebee one) look like their a little short on the details



Hi TJH,

It is true that the 2119d was probably the plainest of the LGB Moguls. I believe the Lake George & Boulder was sort of a lower cost entry level line of LGB products (no less quality - just less detailed).










I did a little touch up of my 2119D by decorating the domes and relabeling the tender to Denver and Rio Grande










LGB eventually updated the 2119 to D&RGW plus added (digital) sound with the 21192 model

LGB also replaced the peaked wood era domes with steam era rounded domes

This version may give you further ideas











I should correct an error I made in an earlier post in that most LGB parts tend to be cast in the base color rather than painted so a scratch does not peel any paint. Some multi-colors (like some F7's) are partially painted.

Good luck,

Jerry


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