# Aster kits



## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If anyone knows where I might be able to find a kit in need of building I would appreciate the nudge in that direction. More specifically, a Mikado kit, but not limited to that.


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## rodblakeman (Jan 2, 2008)

The are a number of Aster dealers in the USA, I am sure that have stock or can quickly get a kit from Hans.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Rod. More interested in a kit which may not be available from a dealer any longer.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I read at one point that all the Mikado kits are sold. Though there might be someone that bought one and has not assembled it yet.

I am considering selling one of my Mikes... I could take it apart and sell you the pieces so you could reassemble it








????


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I know they are all gone so, I didn't know if someone out there knew of any which had not yet been built up.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeremiah - if you joined the G1MRA you'd find out a lot more about who has what and where for sale. 

Best 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 10 May 2011 12:50 PM 
Jeremiah - if you joined the G1MRA you'd find out a lot more about who has what and where for sale. 

Best 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Hi Tac,
NOT sure that I quite agree with that statement.
If you mean the Newsletter & Journal, by the time it gets over here, all the good stuff has probably gone.
If you mean by attending local, regional and National GTG's as you do in the UK, well we can't from over here.
I don't have to tell you that there are more live steamers, and groups of live steamers who are NOT members, than who are, and probably MLS is as good a place to find something as anywhere.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Steamer Bill (Nov 22, 2010)

Hello all,
Unfortunately I can't help the gentleman with his question. But, I am interested in possibly building a locomotive in live steam. What level of completeness are the Aster kits? Any machining required or is it 'just' assembly?

Thanks in Advance,
Bill in Cypress, Texas


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Just Assemble, if you can call it JUST


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steamer Bill on 10 May 2011 02:58 PM 
Hello all,
Unfortunately I can't help the gentleman with his question. But, I am interested in possibly building a locomotive in live steam. What level of completeness are the Aster kits? Any machining required or is it 'just' assembly?

Thanks in Advance,
Bill in Cypress, Texas 



I have assembled two of the Aster Mike kits. The first one was TOO easy... I had set aside a couple of MONTHS to do it, assumming I would spend no more than an hour in the evenings and no more than 4 hours each on Saturday and Sunday... So I would not "Burn out" assembling it. The stories I had read assumed an experienced person would get it together in about 30 hours... and it was NOT recommened for the 'novice"... HA! I had trouble as a kid assembling the snap together Revell models!

I got started with the assembly and it was so much fun that I could not stop at just an hour per day... I assembled it in less than a week, taking about 20 hours total, and that includes lots of holding the pieces up and admiring the jewelry like look to the parts! I did have to file off some paint bubbles on the axlebox horns to get the axle boxes to move easily and some parts required some THINKING to get them together without throwing them across the room in a fit (getting the Walshaerts valve gear "Block" into the link and make it stay there!)! Once I figured out HOW, it was a 5 second job... but it took me 20 minutes to see how easy that part of the assembly could be done!


To my chagrin... the second one took a bit longer for two reasons...

First... I am a typical American Male and I figured I didn't need the instructions, especially for the 2nd time around... HA HA HA that learned me real good!

Second... This kit missed threading 4 holes in one part and that really threw me when I could not get the screws to go in. I suppose if the parts were in a position where the holes could have been inspected easily I might have looked sooner, but the part was the base of the smokebox and the whole thing had to be inserted over some pipes and pushed down and slid over and twisted just right to get it in and removal was the opposite and not something I wanted to repeat. When I finally did remove it and look, it was a quick matter to go buy a tap and put the threads in. Still for all the stupid mistakes I made in getting the 2nd one together (assembling parts out of order and then haveing to dissassemble them in order to attach them to another part) it only took about 22 hours to assemble.

I would, and have, recommend an Aster kit to anybody, novice or not. There are an awful lot of parts and it does take time to put it together but if you can follow instructions it is easy. (If you cannot follow instructions then it may take a bit longer!) I will say that you have to be patient... no pounding or forcing without knowing for sure that you need to push hard and that there is not a problem because something is in the way or needs to be filed a very small amount, etc. I have read of others that needed to do a bit more filing than I had to, but if a hole doesn't align properly, make sure you need to file the hole bigger before you use thermonuclear devices to force it to fit!


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Steamer Bill on 10 May 2011 02:58 PM 
Hello all,
Unfortunately I can't help the gentleman with his question. But, I am interested in possibly building a locomotive in live steam. What level of completeness are the Aster kits? Any machining required or is it 'just' assembly?

Thanks in Advance,
Bill in Cypress, Texas 


Bill,
Everything is ready to put together.
Parts are beautifully painted, the hardware is excellent quality and all the holes are in the right places.
To open up a kit is like going to a smorgasbord.
Looking at all the beautiful parts one is tempted to dive in, but you must restrain yourself and enjoy each stage of the construction.
If there are slide valves involved, then they need to be lapped for a perfect seal.
My first Aster kit was a Schools, which by todays standard are a 'simple' kit, but I started it one evening with my Brother's help, and we decided to just put the chassis together.
RIGHT!
We just couldn't stop and had the whole thing put together in the early hours of the next morning!
Then it was all finished - but it was fun while it lasted.
I have also heard of people who go really slow and take months to complete one - it really is up to you.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

If I had a kit, I would force my self to savor the experience. Of course that is easy to say now, but who knows how things will be when/if I get a kit one day. Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

My wife will be happy to tell you about all the times she tells me she is going to bed at 11:00 PM "I'll be there in a minute" is always my response, with good intentions....... The next time I look at the clock.. 3:00 AM... You would think after building well over 20 kits I would have be able to turn the lights off and walk away.... hehe I call it "Asters disease"....


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

Has anyone put together a Regner kit. How do they compare with Aster.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Renger's would be between a ruby and a RH, my judgement


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Based on the one Regner kit we experienced, Aster wins hands down.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

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I am pleased to say, this thread can be closed or deleted. I have found that which I have looked for. Thanks for all the help. Actually if anyone knew where I might find a detail kit for the Mikado. It is the black version. I guess I can email Hans.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Tac,
NOT sure that I quite agree with that statement.
If you mean the Newsletter & Journal, by the time it gets over here, all the good stuff has probably gone.
If you mean by attending local, regional and National GTG's as you do in the UK, well we can't from over here.
I don't have to tell you that there are more live steamers, and groups of live steamers who are NOT members, than who are, and probably MLS is as good a place to find something as anywhere.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada 



Mr Leech, I put 'em up, Sir, and you knock 'em down. My point was that joining the _worldwide_ association of over 2500 other Gauge 1 modellers makes opportunities for getting hold of much-needed items that might not otherwise present themselves, even though there are indisputably a large number of putative non-members around on this very site who are more than generous with their time, effort and generosity, particularly where newbies to the hobby are concerned. But IMO, however tardy the delivery of the N&J might be, it STILL has the ability to make connections all over the place. And GTG such has the one you and the others frequently attend in the USA at Stavers are just another way by which information can be exchanged. 

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

But, I am interested in possibly building a locomotive in live steam 
It might be a lot easier to start with an Accucraft Ruby kit.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

I know plenty of guys who have successfully put together Aster Kits without any prior kit building experience. All you need is some common sense and an abilitiy to follow instructions. And if one does hit a problem, there is a great Aster support group available to get one through any difficulties one might have. 
Putting together an Aster is as much fun as running one and a very satisfying experience. Although the box should come with a warning, as they are very addictive! 

Rob Meadows


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

As an Aster dealer I count on them being "addictive".


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Maybe the Kits are laced with something which adds to the addiction. I can't wait to start building, but at the same time, this time of anticipation is a lot of the fun too. Sort of like where I am with my kids. I want to really enjoy the stage in life they are in as I know they will grow up too fast.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah, 

How old are your kids? Are they old enough to appreciate the craftsmanship of an Aster kit?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Kent, 
They are not yet old enough to appreciate it, however, I wanted to get a kit that was made of quality parts and something I could even disassemble and re-build with my son a few years from now. They ARE old enough to enjoy watching it though. Not old enough to operate yet. I am super excited to have the privileged to build an engine then watch it come to life. I might add that I really enjoy visiting this forum. You guys are great and have been both patient and helpful to me over this past year.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Since we are talking about Aster KITS, here is a question for all Aster dealers, and/or Aster Snobs! 
Based on Jim Pitts roster totals, up to and including the BR 5MT, 37,508 models have been produced by Aster. 
Exactly, how many were 'built up', and how many were 'kits'. 
How many were electric, and were all electrics sold 'built up'. 
There will NOT be a prize for the correct answers. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 11 May 2011 07:57 PM 
Since we are talking about Aster KITS, here is a question for all Aster dealers, and/or Aster Snobs! 
Based on Jim Pitts roster totals, up to and including the BR 5MT, 37,508 models have been produced by Aster. 
Exactly, how many were 'built up', and how many were 'kits'. 
How many were electric, and were all electrics sold 'built up'. 
There will NOT be a prize for the correct answers. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 


WHAT!? NO PRIZE!?!?

Fergita 'bout it!


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

No prize, then I'm not entering.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr Leech - from what little I know of Aster in general, I admit that, like you, I was not aware that they ever made kits for electrically-driven locomotives, only for the live-steamers. As ever, I could be wrong. My own live-steam BR01 was a kit, BTW. 

With the likes of Mr Pitts, Mr Pantages, Mr Morgan-Kirby, Mr Hans [I'm not going to try and spell his family name for fear of getting it wrong] and Mr Pullen to call on, I'm sure there is an answer out there, even if you eventually have to go to Yokohama to get it. 

Maybe Zubi can ask next time he's there. 

However, seems to me that there is a real need for a definitive Aster 'history' to be written by an interested party that might serve to answer all the questions that pop up from time to time about Aster production. In these times of on-line publishing, it would be easy to ensure regular on-payment updates of any such document. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a real need for a definitive Aster 'history' 
Tac - I'm sure I've seen a decent history, if not a definitive one, on the website of one of the dealers. It included the numbers made, dates, etc.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The UK Aster website via Andrew Pullen has a brief that includes this statement:
"Incidentally, anyone interested in the history of Aster, the seminal influence of Fulgurex SA. and their design consultant Mr J T van Reimsdijk, should read the extensive review published by Gauge One Model Railway Association in the Newsletter and Journal in 1997."


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Ah yes, Charles, but it is now 2011.................much has happened in the intervening years. 

Best 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Asfar as am aware, Electric versions where only ever RTR...and Aster UK website has a listing of numbers built etc..and the year.

The electric builds Ive seen are NYC J1a , Commodore Vanderbilt , [only built eletric], KGV,Climax,[CNWRR],PRR K4 and I think the DB 03 4-6-2..no doubt there are others.


Gordon


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

There are also Big Boys and Daylights.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

The LNER A4 (Gresley, Mallard, and Silver Link), Chapleon Nord, C&S Mogul and Western Maryland Shay were also offered in electric versions. There may have been a few others thrown in, but that covers the major ones not already listed earlier 

As Gordon said, electric Asters were RTR only, no kits. They also differed in cosmetic and other subtle ways from the LS versions, but were mostly built with the exact same parts. Valve gear from an electric can be used on the LS model, and certain electric versions of models had the actual cylinder castings, while others had that plus all the punch outs in the sheet metal for pumps and other fittings. The electrics were basically built up from LS parts, with all the important bits replaced by a spark instead of steam. 

Exceptions to the rule are the norm though, for the NYC hudson was actually a completely different model in electric versus steam. The live steam version had the as built J1c class hudson with Walschaert valve gear, while the electric (both the streamlined Commodore Vanderbuilt and un-streamlined #5344) used the J1e with Baker valve gear. 

Electrics also had different serial number sequences than the live steam versions. For example there were 125 RTR electric K-4's, each one was a certain number out of 125, compared to the LS version that was 350 units, both kit and RTR, bringing the total number of K-4's produced to 475 units (not the 580 as shown on Southern Steam trains). Having owned both versions at some point I can attest to the number of electrics produced being accurate.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I for one have to give much credit to Jim Pitts and his Southern Steam  "Exclusively" Aster web site.  Lots and lots of mouth watering pictures and information there.  It's an Aster snobs dream site.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, since Ryan obviously has insider information, especially as he visited with Aster in Japan, I nominate him to produce the accurate list of ALL Aster models. 
Listing each model, how many in kit form, how many in 'built up' form, how many electric etc.. 
Also, perhaps he can add how many of the kits have still not been made up. 
As well it would be nice to know who in North America is 'hoarding' unbuilt kits in their basements, or attics. 
So can I have a seconder. 
Thank you - seconded. 
All those in favour - unanimous. 
Thank you Ryan, by next week would be nice!! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The case of "As well it would be nice to know who in North America is 'hoarding' unbuilt kits in their basements, or attics," I find most fascinating are/were the numerous H8's purchased for the purpose of future profit then got somewhat water logged resulting a few eastern live steamers getting a "discounted" Allegheny!! As to a list of unbuilt kits, I doubt that is doable. 

Would be interest to interview the members of the steam community that have been in the hobby early on with the start of Aster models. Have had some insight of early experiences from "steam masters" of how it came about that they obtained there first Aster live steam. Zubi has a great relationship with Fuji-san, Inoue-san and the many others of Aster would be great resource for getting a complete record and history. One could add to that list many knowledgeable others such as Gordon Watson, Andrew Pullen, Hans Huwyler, Jerry Reshew, and all the Aster dealers, etc who probably have experiences with Aster and their customers...in fact David your rebuild is a classic!!


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

And not all electrics stayed electric. Norm converted this Commodore...


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## GNSteamer (Jan 16, 2008)

It's a sad reality but the only time many of these hoarded Aster kits come back to market is when a family has an estate sale or auction. What's even more sad is that these kits were purchased for the all the wrong reasons, left unbuilt and unsteamed many will probably suffer from some level of deterioration with the kits benefiting from the ability for the new owner to simply assemble the kit with new rubber O-rings etc. cheated of the great times and experiences at steam ups. 
I see this all this time with people who purchase sports cars when they come across a car with less than three thousand miles odometer when it originally came off a German assembly line in the late 90's.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I wonder if some kits were bought with the intention of building them, but after seeing the kit, perhaps doubt creeps in and before you know it, the owner puts it away for a rainy day intending to "one day" build it, and sadly that "one day" does not arrive and it is either forgotten about or found later and after realizing that it most likely will never be assembled, it is put up on market, but one needs to recoup the original costs paid and so it is sold for the same or more than was paid for it. 

Someone needs to invent an Aster-o-meter which, when turned on, would locate all surviving aster kits in their unbuilt stage and cause them to emanate with a bright light.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The downside to kits "put away" is not only things that start to deteriorate (gasket material, rings) but things that might have gotten missing that are no longer available after the many years of production: thus word of caution. On the plus side, at the Cabin Fever auction several "mint" kits went for pennies on the dollar as to purchase price in comparison to original cost. The can be the case at estate sales where families either do not know potential valve/market or just want to get rid of a "toy train!"


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 13 May 2011 08:09 AM 
The downside to kits "put away" is not only things that start to deteriorate (gasket material, rings) but things that might have gotten missing that are no longer available after the many years of production: thus word of caution. On the plus side, at the Cabin Fever auction several "mint" kits went for pennies on the dollar as to purchase price in comparison to original cost. The can be the case at estate sales where families either do not know potential valve/market or just want to get rid of a "toy train!"



And the other upside is that guys like me get to find a mint kit 30 years later. I didn't know I'd want a JNR mogul when they were produced 30 years ago! And I'm sure you guys can help me if the O-rings need replacing . .


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I just completed a K-4 kit. I need to test fire it and then it will be "for sale" As pretty as she is I'm not a gas firing person, and I don't want a shelf queen.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Jeremiah - see that? You can beat the wait for the AccuCraft/AMS K-4 AND get a real Aster all rolled into one! 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Tac 
Already found a Kit. Thanks though.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Well don't keep us in suspense Jeremiah, what did you get? 

Rob Meadows


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Ike's brother.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 12 May 2011 10:01 PM 
Well, since Ryan obviously has insider information, especially as he visited with Aster in Japan, I nominate him to produce the accurate list of ALL Aster models. 
Listing each model, how many in kit form, how many in 'built up' form, how many electric etc.. 
Also, perhaps he can add how many of the kits have still not been made up. 
As well it would be nice to know who in North America is 'hoarding' unbuilt kits in their basements, or attics. 
So can I have a seconder. 
Thank you - seconded. 
All those in favour - unanimous. 
Thank you Ryan, by next week would be nice!! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada






David,
Hope springs eternal. 

I am merely observant, this information is nothing secret, rather just notes taken from the past 10 or so years of seeing and working on various Asters. I am by no means an expert or historian! 

The problem with kit versus RTR is that some models did not distinguish how many were of each type, while others did. Zubi would probably have better access to the Aster records (or even Hans or Andrew Pullen) than I do. 
Then there is the never ending variety of domestic (JNR) versions of the locomotives, which have all been released at least twice over, in various configurations (Hokkaido versions and the like). 

It is worth mentioning that I have been amassing a database of manuals however, for those who have misplaced theirs or need some, as well as for my own reference in the shop. If anyone has a various collection of engines, please get in contact with me as I would be interested in copying the manuals you have for the reference.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

speaking of Mikados, there is one up on Ebay right now. Just type in Aster Live Steam in the search box.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 13 May 2011 11:09 AM 
Ike's brother. 

I guess I am off base. What is Ike's brother.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Art, that would be "Mike"


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't think anybody mentioned the SP GS4 which was another built-up electric offering from Aster. 

Regards, 

Ross Schlabach


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Ross, 

Dan P. covered both the GS-4 and the UP Bigboy earlier.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, I have a large number of Aster manuals - drop me an email if you need anything. I have manuals for all British models a few more besides.

BTW - thanks for fixing the K4!

Robert


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Robert
A preview of the Aster K4 steamin' along sent via email.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Jeremiah: you say you "Found" a kit. The operative question is "DID YOU BUY IT?"


If not, bite the bullet and buy the kit you found or something you can cut your teeth on. Build it, run it and even take a chance at burning your fingers. The more you run, the more you will learn what you do and do not like.


You and I have talked [thankfully many cars now have power outlets] about 1:29, 1:32, coal, alcohol, butane, isobutane, Accucraft, Aster and even Roundhouse [including the Sabre Steam coal derivatives], kits and RTR. No matter what you buy, if you determine later on that you don't like it, there will be a market, and if you are the average live steamer, you should have no difficulty getting your money back.


Anyway, let us know what you bought and if it's a kit, keep us up to date on your progress.


Regards,


Will


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Will, 
I am sending the money in the morning for my purchase of a Mikado in Kit form.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Still looking for a detail kit for the Mikado. If one is found, let me know. I might be interested. If not, I'll have to whip up some piping myself one day.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

You will want to install some of the detail kit BEFORE you put the boiler in the shell.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Jeff. I also plan to start a thread detailing my journey building it. I'll have to become a 1st class passenger.


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## SCSteamer (Jul 24, 2009)

The Aster Climax was either live steam or electric. Anyone have the electric version ?


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah,

Before you start building, you need to read this.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thank you Tom.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Having trouble locating some Ceramic paper to insulate the boiler with. I know the kit comes with some, but I was going to use more than what comes with the kit. I spent some time online looking locally and can't quite find a place which sells small quantities. Any ideas out there? Thanks.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Give Jim Pitts a call at southern Steam Trains

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

will do that, Thanks Tac.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

It is not necessary to insulate the entire mikado boiler. The primary use is to seal around the firebox/backhead and smokebox to prevent secondary air entrapment and loss of draft. 

The B type boilers make plenty of steam and will not notice the difference between being fully insulated and having an air jacket between it and the outer wrapper. Given that the axle pumps are only adequate for the engine, making more steam through thermal efficiency (wrapping the boiler) may not work in the axle pump's favor, since the boiler will be generating more steam (and thereby using more water) than the pump can offset. 

The insulation will also likely tear up in side the boiler shell with all the threads/nuts and extra pieces of wire that protrude in from the detail kit. I've seen it happen many a time, no matter how well secured the insulation is to the boiler, it always manages to catch and bunch up on something inside the boiler jacket


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Ryan, makes sense. Less work to wrap the boiler as well. I am getting so many opinions about what to do and what not to do. I think that I will just follow the directions of both the kit and the errata sheet. Seems as though one can do this or that which may or may not make a huge difference, but in the end, the Mikado seems to run fine without all these modifications. I guess I can always come back later and wrap the boiler in ceramic sheet if I wanted anyway. Thanks.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 19 May 2011 08:04 AM 

The B type boilers make plenty of steam and will not notice the difference between being fully insulated and having an air jacket between it and the outer wrapper. Given that the axle pumps are only adequate for the engine, making more steam through thermal efficiency (wrapping the boiler) may not work in the axle pump's favor, since the boiler will be generating more steam (and thereby using more water) than the pump can offset. 



Ryan,
Why would the boiler be generating MORE steam than the pump can offset?
The only reason that I can see is that the wicks are not adjusted correctly. 
The source of heat needs to match the locomotive in normal expected use, and whilst this may take a little time to get right, it should be possible.
My Royal Hudson is currently producing far too much steam indoors (as at Stavers) due to the fact that I put in new 'Winter' wicks for running at Dans when it was below freezing.
Dick Abbott suggests just using three pots in the Summer.
Since Summer weather has finally arrived on the West coast yesterday, I must get onto that before getting to Sacramento. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

David, 
Will you please elaborate on the difference between Summer and Winter Wicks? Or are you just running one pot less in summer? 

Rob Meadows


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Wouldn't regulating the fuel flow with the fuel valve be just as effective?


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

Jerimiah, as far as for extra insulation, if you find it neccessary, I recently got some material called FIBERFRAX. It comes in 1/16 in and 1/8 in thickness. Very flexible stuff. Withstands 2000 deg. Temps. I forget the the name of the aircraft store where I ordered it from, but if interested I'll look it up.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Steamupdad, 
Thanks for the offer. I guess if wrapping the boiler is not a necessity, I will choose to skip it for now. If it is proven to help, then I would consider it. One of the reasons I was told it might be good to do it was to better protect the paint and make it a bit cooler to the touch.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Ding Dong on 19 May 2011 09:30 AM 
David, 
Will you please elaborate on the difference between Summer and Winter Wicks? Or are you just running one pot less in summer? 

Rob Meadows 
Hi Rob,
The wicks that i was running with last summer were 'just right' for my train of 6 cars, with the safety hardly ever blowing.
Come the cold weather and it would never get over about 40 psi, so it would still run but had no 'get up and go'.
I put in new wicks that were about 1/16" to 1/8" longer, and it was great in the cold.
Now in warmer times the safety valve is blowing most of the time.
So, I will try Dicks idea, and just pull out one wick (probably the rear one) and see what happens. 
Al the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By steamupdad on 19 May 2011 09:40 AM 
Wouldn't regulating the fuel flow with the fuel valve be just as effective? 
Hi Steamupdad,
No, I don't think that you can really 'do' alcohol that way, as you do with gas.
If you regulate the amount on fuel going into the sump, then the fuel level will drop and the wicks will not pull up the fuel as well resulting in a very poor flame.
There might be a point at which it would work, but I am not sure about it. 
There is a gentleman in the UK who has made an adjustable burner, where his wick height can be adjusted, and he has had success with that. 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David, good example...if all variables are the same (other than outside temp) what would be the cause of too much steam or less steam:


"Come the cold weather and it would never get over about 40 psi, so it would still run but had no 'get up and go'.I put in new wicks that were about 1/16" to 1/8" longer, and it was great in the cold.Now in warmer times the safety valve is blowing most of the time."Cooler less insulated boiler vs warmer more insulated boiler effect via mother nature..."blowing off most of the time- thus too much steam being made" due to temperature(summer heat) surrounding the engine/boiler.


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

David, the way I see it in my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fuel level is regulated by the depth of the vent tube in the sump. If the fuel valve (fire not lit) is just cracked open or open all the way the fuel level in the cups remain the same. So its how fast your feeding the fire. Slow feed so the fire just stays lit to maintain steam or full rich so the fire can roar. This principle in effect should work (?). The wick height adjust the flme volume, like in an oil lamp more wick more flame since the fuel is not regulated.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steamupdad
"fuel level is regulated by the depth of the vent tube in the sump" some have varied the length of the tube using tubing thus reducing fuel amount in the sump


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Isn't the fuel level regulated by the chicken feed system? Once the sump is low enough, more fuel is added until the vapor lock stops it again. opening it full or half would not really affect the heat, but rather how fast or slow the wicks are given the initial dose of fuel to soak them. Or am I way off here.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You can reduce the flow of fuel to the sump such that it cannot refill faster than it is being burnt and thus you reduce the flame. But this can cause the flame to sit IN the wicks (instead of floating in the vapor above them) and thus damage the wicks.


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

I use a wick material that suffers no effects. I let my fire ' flame out' by shutting the fuel off. The wicks have no discoloration and are not brittle. I got the wick material (rope) off ebay and extremely pleased with it.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By steamupdad on 19 May 2011 11:05 AM 
David, the way I see it in my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fuel level is regulated by the depth of the vent tube in the sump. If the fuel valve (fire not lit) is just cracked open or open all the way the fuel level in the cups remain the same. So its how fast your feeding the fire. Slow feed so the fire just stays lit to maintain steam or full rich so the fire can roar. This principle in effect should work (?). The wick height adjust the flme volume, like in an oil lamp more wick more flame since the fuel is not regulated. 
Hi,
I'm not sure that I see it that way.
Yes, the vent tube controls the level in the sump and therefor in the burner and you get a good flame.
The tightness of the wicks, and the diameter of the burner tube will control how fast the fuel is able to be burned. 
If you regulate the fuel so that less fuel is entering the sump than is being used by the wicks, eventually the fuel will dry up in the sump and the fire will go out.
I would assume that the actual height of the fuel in the burner will have no real effect on the flame, rather whether the fuel is able to 'wick' up the wicks efficiently.
In the lamp, it is the ratio of exposed wick, therefor fuel, to air mixture that controls the size of the flame.
Are you saying that you have different experiences?
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

David, in my experience with alky's, three factors come into play......well, four if you include drafting.. I. e. Blower/ exhaust. (1), fuel must bbe at a proper level in the cups. Too low - weak fire. Too high- spillage and fire running down the side. Once the fuel level is set via vent tube in sump, that level will remain steady with or without wicks in the cups. (2), wick height....the shorter the wick height the less fuel exposed and creates small flame. Taller wick height exposes more fuel, therefor larger flame and more BTU's. (3), fuel valve....controls how fast to keep the cups filled with fuel. With the fuel valve open full, three turns or so, the fuel level will remain constant in the cups. The wick height will determan the size of the flame. Now with the proper wick height an fuel level, you should be able to control the burn rate by opening or closing the fuel valve. This is burn rate to fuel supply/ consumption. (4), blower/ exhaust.....depending on the engines load or steam consumption, you can regulate the fuel valve to suit the egines need. The more the blower is open the more flame it is going to draw thus requiring more fuel supply. Same applies for exhaust depending on load. If the engine is at idle, the blower is just cracked open thus drawing a lesser flame so fuel supply can be turned down. But if fuel supply is too low it is possible to suck the fire out with the blower or exhaust. I hope this helps. I was beginimg to lose track of what I was saying. If i'm way off course here someone please fill me in.


Steamupdad


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Thei are two things that are going to effect the fierceness of the fire : 1)The height of the wicks above the pots and 2) the number of strands in the pots. If you want to reduce the flame either cut down the wicks or add more strands to each pot. 
Opening the fuel supply simply fills the sump and the wicks draw from the sump. Whether I open the valve a 1/4 turn or several turns makes no difference. It is essentially on or off. In fact I can turn off the valve and the engine will continue to run normally untill all the fuel in the sump is consumed. 

Rob Meadows


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Steamupdad, 
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with part of your number 3! 
The fuel valve does NOT control how fast the cups are filled with fuel. 
As I have already said, and you have said in point 2, the sump must be full, in order for wicks to receive the correct amount of fuel. 
Anything less than that and the fire will eventually go out, as more fuel is being burned than you are supplying. 
As Rob says, it is only the size of the wicks, and the size and number of pots that can control the amount of fuel being consumed. 
At least, that is the way that I understand it. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## steamupdad (Aug 19, 2008)

David,

Are you going to attend the Sacramento summer steamup this year? I am and I think this would be a good topic to discus out there. This is good stuff. 


Take care, steamupdad


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By steamupdad on 19 May 2011 05:08 PM 
David, Are you going to attend the Sacramento summer steamup this year? I am and I think this would be a good topic to discus out there. This is good stuff. Take care, steamupdad 
I will certainly be there, and we can discuss, and perhaps you can demonstrate the theory!
BUT - you although you know who I am, how will I know who to discuss it with????
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Anyone out there want to weigh in on the subject of ceramic sheets on the boiler of the Mikado. I get more "will be good" than "not so good", so I am guessing if I can find the sheets, I'll add them before I put on the jacket. I can't see how it will hurt and if it would make that big of a difference in the axle pump's efficiency, could I not just close the bypass all the way, giving more water to the boiler?


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't have any experience with the Mikado. But after reading Ryan's post, (who is one of the most knowledgable on this site)I wouldn't do it. If you wrap the boiler in ceramic sheet, you increase its efficiency so that it makes more steam. But, as the engine can only use so much, the rest is going to be wasted out of the safety, which means you are using more water than you would without the thermal wrapping. So, if the axel pump is just suffient for the design without wrapping, it may not be able to keep up with wrapping. 
If I were you, I would place a call through to Han at Aster and ask him. He's both friendly and Knowedgable. 

Rob Meadows


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

One other thought, I have never, in all my years of steaming, come across an owner of a Mikado who has ever complained of a lack of steam. They appear to run great. So why fix a problem that doesn't exist? 

Rob Meadows


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

The reason for wrapping the boiler has less with efficiency and more to do with prolonging the paint on the boiler shell as well as allowing it to be handled a bit easier when hot. I don't doubt Ryan's knowledge, however wrapping it makes sense and it is not foreign to do so on an Aster boiler. Would like to hear what Jeff Runge thinks on the subject as he has built a lot of Aster engines.
Hey, I may not end up doing it.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 19 May 2011 07:18 PM 

The reason for wrapping the boiler has less with efficiency and more to do with prolonging the paint on the boiler shell as well as allowing it to be handled a bit easier when hot. I don't doubt Ryan's knowledge, however wrapping it makes sense and it is not foreign to do so on an Aster boiler. Would like to hear what Jeff Runge thinks on the subject as he has built a lot of Aster engines.
Hey, I may not end up doing it. 











Working on a rebuild of the Aster Mike that was built according to instructions (performed well for 12 years). One can see the insulation. 

" prolonging the paint on the boiler shell as well as allowing it to be handled a bit easier when hot" the insulation will not help with either circumstance. 
As to this topic, follow the directions unless other wise note as per references given already.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Charles. Seeing that pic helps. If there really is no benefit from the insulation, then I will skip it. I do have a question. Why do I see some pics of boilers being insulated. Charles, on your site, I see a boiler from a K4 has been fully insulated. I have also seen photos on Jim Pitt's site which show various builds having the boiler fitted with ceramic sheets.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I have wrapped the entire boiler on some engines by customer request, and some were done as per the original build instructions, like the K-4. 

I did not wrap the entire boiler on my Mikado or Berkshire, but I can think of no reason not to on these engines. I just did not have the material on hand at the time I built them. I do double wrap the smoke boxes.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Ding Dong on 19 May 2011 07:03 PM 
I don't have any experience with the Mikado. But after reading Ryan's post, (who is one of the most knowledgable on this site)I wouldn't do it. If you wrap the boiler in ceramic sheet, you increase its efficiency so that it makes more steam. But, as the engine can only use so much, the rest is going to be wasted out of the safety, which means you are using more water than you would without the thermal wrapping. So, if the axel pump is just suffient for the design without wrapping, it may not be able to keep up with wrapping. 
If I were you, I would place a call through to Han at Aster and ask him. He's both friendly and Knowedgable. 

Rob Meadows 
Hi Rob,
Maybe I'm missing something here, BUT WHY is steam going to go out the safety?
By reducing the heat provided by the burner, you boil the water, but not in excess.
The idea of a safety valve is surely just that, to provide safety IF you are making too much steam. 
If there is room, and the material available, I would personally insulate everywhere that I can.
There is no point in wasting heat, or making things overly hot, if it's not necessary.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

David, 
For example, the Aster Pannier is already over-fired, it constantly blows off at the safety and wastes steam. So why then would someone choose to wrap its boiler and make it even more efficient to waste ever more steam? 

Rob Meadows


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Okay Rob, 
But why is it 'over-fired'? 
FIX the wicks, and the problem solved. 
No more waste of steam. 
Wrap the boiler and also save some of that expensive alcohol! 
Regards, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

If the Mikado is blowing off at the safety all the time, and the axel pump can't keep up with demand, then the builder has created a problem that wouldn't exist had the loco been built according to the directions. Yea, then you would have to fiddle with the burners or plug up a pot. But the original question was to wrap or not to wrap. 

Rob


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

see what happens when someone offers their opinion to one who has not built a kit before? Thanks for the feedback, but in the end, all I want is to build it so that it works great and stays looking great (not taking into account how the user maintains it). 

ON a different note, if someone were going to throw away a working Aster suction fan, let me know. I may know of a better trash can than you have.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Note: I could be way off on this reasoning (2nd portion of the response mostly), but the first part of this response is certainly valid in my opinion. 

-Certainly it is beneficial to wrap a boiler in insulating sheet. Perhaps it is more beneficial to gas fired boilers (variable heat source) versus alcohol boilers (constant heat source) in terms of improving efficiency, and would be the reason why the gas fired Asters have fully insulated boilers versus the alcohol fired ones that have insulation only at critical areas. 

Having both wrapped and built to spec, like Jeff R. said, there is no reason not to, but it is not a complete necessity provided that the smokebox and firebox areas are well sealed, which is more critical in drafting boilers, of course. It really is six one way and half-dozen the next in this scale, given each engine is a little different in one aspect or another. Obviously if cosmetic or physical factors (small boilers) are an issue than insulation is one way to be preventative and increase efficiency. I would recommend the doubled up smoke box insulation as well, as the insulation does become hard and degrades over time with use. Ceramic 1/16" insulation usually is good for 6 -8 years of fairly consistent running before beginning to fall off the smokebox walls, but your mileage may vary. An added benefit is that the smokebox will not discolor as easily from baked on oil or the high temperatures there. 

(second half) 
-The point I was trying to make with the wrapping of a boiler for a first time kit builder is simple really, but a bit long in tooth, so grab a cup of your favorite liquid and have a read if you wish  

If you change a variable that allows better thermal efficiency (insulating a boiler) without taking measures to reduce the amount of BTUs that are required to keep the boiler at optimum performance (just shy of lifting/weeping the safety valves) or, in other words adjusting the wicks to suit the more efficient boiler, then the steam production and water consumption can certainly overcome the feed water system. This is true on the Mikados especially given the free steaming nature of the boiler which is fed by a marginally ample axle pump. 

Without following through and adjusting the factory specs to offset the new variable, then the new modification of insulating the boiler while keeping the wicks at factory height (and tightness) may make the engine a bit more difficult to handle and add another element of confusion to the mix. To the seasoned steamer the fix is simple, but just telling a new kit builder to insulate the boiler without also stating the positive effects it can have on steam generation (and that the wicks may need to be adjusted to suit) isn't giving them the whole picture. 



These are just my observations and experiences through trial/error, nothing to swear on by any means as there are many ways to build a kit, just as long as it is finished and works well in the end.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I have insulated about half of the locomotives I made. I made 2 BR38s, and only insulated one boiler. I am completely unable to tell you which it is, as they run the same. My mike runs well without insulation on the boiler. The ceramic material is not just to keep the smokebox cooler - its also there to seal air leaks in between the boiler, the smokebox and the boiler shell. It is vital for a good draft to have no way for air to reach the smokebox except through the boiler tubes (and hense from the draft of the fire) 

If I remember correctly, the detail kit on the Mike was a bit of a pain to install. If you fine one, make sure you put the parts on before sliding the boiler into the shell. Expecially if you are going to insulate the boiler. There isn't a whole lot of room between the boiler and the shell. There's enough, but not a lot.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 
Ryan, Thanks. I will double up on the smoke box with the insulation for sure. As to the boiler, well, for now I'll be leaving it alone. I plan on doing my own maintenance on this Mikado when the time comes, so perhaps then after I am "seasoned" a bit, I'll decide "to wrap or not". Your explanation makes sense to me and after all, it is not in the instructions nor is it in the errata data sheet that Marc Horovitz made up. 

John, Thanks for your input as well.

The offer still stands to give your un-wanted Aster suction Fan a good home







. 

BTW, wouldn't adjusting the wick height just take care of the issue of the axle pump if I did insulate?


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Regards to the axle pump,
It just has a harder time pumping water in the boiler at higher pressure(blowoff pressure). Insulating the boiler will save your heat, you can get longer run times since steam pressure will be kept up using less fuel (shorter wicks use less fuel). (might be too small to notice though)
Just make sure the insulation is thin enough to fit in there, don't force anything! I am pretty sure someone on the boards here has done it and could tell you the perfect thickness and material for it. You just have to put in an order to McMaster Carr yourself.

As with any Live Steam engine, you have to keep an eye on it at all times when its fired up and be ready to deal with whatever presents itself. 
This makes it fun lol


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John Allman on 20 May 2011 04:06 AM 


If I remember correctly, the detail kit on the Mike was a bit of a pain to install. If you fine one, make sure you put the parts on before sliding the boiler into the shell. Especially if you are going to insulate the boiler. There isn't a whole lot of room between the boiler and the shell. There's enough, but not a lot. 


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My Mikado is a factory built. A friend of mine that has built many Aster kits was nice enough at the time to offer to install detail kit on the built engine for me. Because the engine was built it was much, much harder to do. Yes, he had to remove the boiler to attach the fake feed water pipes that are on each side of engine. I will not give his name because I would not want anyone to ever ask him to do another. Every time I see him I thank him again because I know what a pain in the A$$ it was. He just rolls his eyes smiling giving me that look like he is thinking.................wow you are lucky, I will never do that again.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

INTENDED CONSEQUENCES


We should all take a few steps back and think about what it is that we are attempting to do.  What is it?


RUN LIVE STEAM TRAINS AS EFFICIENTLY AND FOR AS LONG A RUN AS REASONABLY POSSIBLE WITH THE LEAST FUEL!


Now, what does that require us to do?  We should be trying to use our resources as efficiently as possible and that means don't waste heat.


If adding boiler insulation means that less heat/alcohol/butane/coal is needed for our locomotives to do the intended work, then that should be a good thing and we should all strive for it.  


I'm all for getting the longest run out of a tank of fuel or shovel full of coal, and I hate to see steam vented through the safety valve.


Ceramic paper is a great insulator, it is cheap and it is thin.  It cuts just like paper with ordinary scissors and makes an excellent replacement for asbestos [we should never be handling asbestos although some older Aster kits include asbestos sheets].


I'm not in business, but since it seems to be difficult to find ceramic paper in some places, I'm making arrangements to buy some from a local stained glass manufacturer [they don't want to deal with single sheet purchases and mailing].  The price will be  $6.50 for a copy paper thick sheet of 2.9 sq. ft.,  and will include sales tax and  postage.  The sheets are  20.5" square so the price works out to be about $2.20 per square foot.  Send a PM if you want any.


 


Regards,


 


Will Lindley


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the aspects of kit building is to strive to set up the components of efficiency to which most here know and apply:

Proper prep of valve and cylinders
Correct location of exhaust and blower alignment to stack

Set the timing 
No air infiltration
Proper wick setup (height, numbers of strands, material)
Fuel (most will do but keeping moisture out is important)

No leaks (air, fuel or water) 




Then comes the operational aspect of efficiency:
Limited safeties lifting
When and where to use bypass- axle pump
Application of blower (minimum best)

Throttle setting
Company notch- only truly done with proper valve gear setup

Load and grade

All this and more is what makes your engine run well for a long session over a period of years. 


That is what makes live steam a nearly true experience of operating the real thing (minus injectors, brakes, generators, pumps,etc) as both a challenge and point of satisfaction from a successful steam up.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, 

The mikado axle pump can overcome the boiler pressure, the problem lies in the small stock (5mm) bore not being able to feed enough water into the boiler to supplement the amount being boiled. Pressure has little to do with it since the pump does put water in, as is evident by the tender level dropping. The water is not going somewhere else, since there are no visible external leaks (and internal backflushing would mean the tender level would be constant), so it must be going in the boiler! 

The stock pump will keep the water level mostly the same for a while if you start with a 3/4 full boiler, but over the course of the run the water level in the boiler will drop little by little, depending on the load and speed of the engine, or the number of times you make a station stop and do not replenish with the handpump. 

A 6 or 7mm pump bore is a better solution and provides much more water with a nice safety margin to keep the boiler replenished in case of slow speed running or working a heavy train. As a general rule of thumb, I believe you should always have the ability to bring the boiler up to full from less than a 1/3 a glass of water with the axle pump alone, running at a moderate pace (scale 40-60 mph), and the pump should always have an upperhand to the evaporation rate of the boiler. 

The upgraded axle pump for the mikado has a 6mm ram and is much better at keeping up with the boiler demand, allowing for a greater margin of error in the water feed rate versus evaporation/steam generation rate.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 20 May 2011 04:15 AM 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 
Ryan, Thanks. I will double up on the smoke box with the insulation for sure. As to the boiler, well, for now I'll be leaving it alone. I plan on doing my own maintenance on this Mikado when the time comes, so perhaps then after I am "seasoned" a bit, I'll decide "to wrap or not". Your explanation makes sense to me and after all, it is not in the instructions nor is it in the errata data sheet that Marc Horovitz made up. 

John, Thanks for your input as well.

The offer still stands to give your un-wanted Aster suction Fan a good home







. 

BTW, wouldn't adjusting the wick height just take care of the issue of the axle pump if I did insulate? 

Jeremiah
If you cannot get the Aster fan, try the Accucraft Fan. I have both and the Accucraft fan seems stronger to me. Gonna start a War I know but I believe it.
Art


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Art, 
I thought about the ACC. fan, and was told that it was a bit bigger and more wobbly for a fit into an Aster engine. The Acc. one is cheaper though.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rbednarik on 20 May 2011 12:41 PM 
Andrew, 

The mikado axle pump can overcome the boiler pressure, the problem lies in the small stock (5mm) bore not being able to feed enough water into the boiler to supplement the amount being boiled. Pressure has little to do with it since the pump does put water in, as is evident by the tender level dropping. The water is not going somewhere else, since there are no visible external leaks (and internal backflushing would mean the tender level would be constant), so it must be going in the boiler! 

The stock pump will keep the water level mostly the same for a while if you start with a 3/4 full boiler, but over the course of the run the water level in the boiler will drop little by little, depending on the load and speed of the engine, or the number of times you make a station stop and do not replenish with the handpump. 

A 6 or 7mm pump bore is a better solution and provides much more water with a nice safety margin to keep the boiler replenished in case of slow speed running or working a heavy train. As a general rule of thumb, I believe you should always have the ability to bring the boiler up to full from less than a 1/3 a glass of water with the axle pump alone, running at a moderate pace (scale 40-60 mph), and the pump should always have an upperhand to the evaporation rate of the boiler. 

The upgraded axle pump for the mikado has a 6mm ram and is much better at keeping up with the boiler demand, allowing for a greater margin of error in the water feed rate versus evaporation/steam generation rate. 
Ahh the bore is too small - I was speculating on the Aster Mikado, since my experience is with a DJB Coal Fired ruby and DJB's crosshead pump. I know I can't stop for very long unless I start using the goodall valve to manually put water in the boiler.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Should I have Norm Saley enlarge the bore on the axle pump before installation then?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I assume (never a good thing to do) that the axle pump on my green Mikado is stock. 
I have not had a problem with it keeping the boiler full. 
I have always thought that an axle pump should be designed to 'just replenish water that is used during normal running'. 
That is, you start with a 3/4 full boiler, and it stays that way throughout your run. 
This way the pump is not taking any excessive amount of power to pump water. 
Now of course if you decide one day to pull 100 box cars where you are making the poor loco struggle and work hard, then the axle pump may not be able to keep up, this is where one has to define 'normal'! 
In this case you will need to stop every now and then to use the tender pump. 
At least, that is my view point. 
So, Jeremiah, a personal choice, but I would go with what you get and then decide IF it needs fixing when you have a couple of years running under your belt. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

David, 

The pump on our Mike is also stock, and over time has begun to loose efficiency (seals and bore becoming worn), but it is nothing a little routine maintenance cannot solve. After all it does have many running hours on it! 

It will _just_ keep up depending on how you run the engine, and coming from larger engines such as the GS-4 where the axle pump is very efficient, it is nice to have the ability to bring the boiler up in water level during a run, rather than keeping everything at a normalized level. This is especially true of the GS-4 since it is most efficient with a full glass (both the Accucraft and Aster GS-4 use locomotive type fireboxes with high crown sheets) since you are using all of the available heating surface, making the boiler more economical to run. 

Correct, it is all dependent on how one runs the engine to define what is "normal". Most who have upgraded their pump use the mikado in switching and slow freight duties, stopping to set out cars and the like. The amount of power to push a 6 or 7mm ram compared to a 5mm one is negligible by the way, and the Mikado easily has enough grunt to overcome it. Running round and round it is easy to make a perfect setting for the pump to replace just the right amount of water to the boiler and no more, but when you have tracks with ladder yards and sidings round and round becomes a bit trivial.

Jeremiah,
The pump will work fine as-is for you, they are very good when they are first built. Over time as the parts begin to become long in the tooth, the pump will wane a little, but it shouldn't be until the engine has well over 150 hours on it and is nothing that cant be serviced easily. 

If you decide down the road that you don't want to stop and handpump when running slow or playing around, then, if you want you can see about getting the pump enlarged (be sure to ask for a stainless steel ram). Get used to the engine in stock form before adding anything else on would be my recommendation, as always. Too many variables can make it hard to weed through all the new characteristics or troubleshoot a problem.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 20 May 2011 03:41 PM 
I assume (never a good thing to do) that the axle pump on my green Mikado is stock. 
I have not had a problem with it keeping the boiler full. 
I have always thought that an axle pump should be designed to 'just replenish water that is used during normal running'. 
That is, you start with a 3/4 full boiler, and it stays that way throughout your run. 
This way the pump is not taking any excessive amount of power to pump water. 
Now of course if you decide one day to pull 100 box cars where you are making the poor loco struggle and work hard, then the axle pump may not be able to keep up, this is where one has to define 'normal'! 
In this case you will need to stop every now and then to use the tender pump. 
At least, that is my view point. 
So, Jeremiah, a personal choice, but I would go with what you get and then decide IF it needs fixing when you have a couple of years running under your belt. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 

Both of my Aster Mikes have the stock axle pump and they both keep up with water usage as long as the engine is moving, (that's a key thing... Axle pumps only work if the wheels are turning!) When the water gets below 1/2 glass I close the bypass valve to have the pump force water into the boiler and within a few minutes of running (light or with a short consist which often contains a "drag car" for increased load) the glass is back to 3/4 to 7/8 full and I again open the bypass to let the water be pumped back to the tender. Due to the way I run my engines, (varying speeds and loads in one run) I have never been able to find the so-called "Sweet Spot" on the bypass valve where it leaks just enough back to the tender to that what is forced into the boiler is just what was lost in steam. I think the "Sweet Spot" is a total myth.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 20 May 2011 01:37 PM 
Art, 
I thought about the ACC. fan, and was told that it was a bit bigger and more wobbly for a fit into an Aster engine. The Acc. one is cheaper though. 
I add a couple of "O" rings on to the suction fan. That stabilizes it enough to do the job. 
You have invested in an Aster engine , so do not "cheap" out on outfitting her. The ACC does cost less but that is not why I use it. It has more suction. Others that steam with us diasgree because they are more familiar wtih what they have been using for years. You will find out for yourself when the time comes to fire up you new machine. Good luck in your building Her.
Art


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 20 May 2011 04:39 PM 
I think the "Sweet Spot" is a total myth. 



My brother in the UK has built locos where, from experience, and calculation of cylinder size, boiler etc., he has made the axle pump capacity so perfect, that he doesn't even fit a bypass valve.
His engines will just happily run with only the occasional tender pump if some steam is wasted when sitting stationary.
I marvel at how he can do it, as I'm sure that if I tried to do it, the boiler would keep overfilling, and then what would you do!
I guess that you need to get it right, or just below right, not above! 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By gibs035 on 20 May 2011 05:16 PM 
Posted By iceclimber on 20 May 2011 01:37 PM 
Art, 
I thought about the ACC. fan, and was told that it was a bit bigger and more wobbly for a fit into an Aster engine. The Acc. one is cheaper though. 
I add a couple of "O" rings on to the suction fan. That stabilizes it enough to do the job. 
You have invested in an Aster engine , so do not "cheap" out on outfitting her. The ACC does cost less but that is not why I use it. It has more suction. Others that steam with us diasgree because they are more familiar wtih what they have been using for years. You will find out for yourself when the time comes to fire up you new machine. Good luck in your building Her.
Art


In the last G1MRA newsletter was an article about the different powers of the Aster, Accucraft and home made suction fan.
Made for some very interesting reading.
One of the Accucraft fans here locally had the blades going in the 'concave' direction, which made me think that the air would actually be blowing and not sucking.
We realised after doing some testing that this was not the case.
But in the article it shows that there is more suction when rotating with the concave side in front.
It also shows that the Accucraft is indeed more powerful than the standard Aster one.
It also pointed out that his home made one with straight blades is plenty powerful enough for mid sized locos.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks all to both Charles, Ryan, David, Andrew, Art and anyone else who has weighed in. If the Accucraft fan is the way to go, then I can live with adding a few o rings and paying less. I think the Aster fan is around $150 so I'll save around $45 going with Accucraft. Hey, those $45 will buy a lot of batteries to run the fan over the years. 
As to the pump bore, I'll let it alone. I don't plan to start pulling 100 cars anyway.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

There are two things you really should do. 

1) the springing on the drivers is a bit weak. Your loco will look like it is about to rotate for takeoff if you don't get stiffer ones. Put the stiffer ones on the back two drivers. You may be able to get those springs from Norm. (I dont have his email address but Im sure someone will post it) This wont affect the way it runs, but I think it looks better.

2) the back of the cab roof is fragile: once you see how it is put together, drill some small holes and use screws to hold up the back. Ryan probably has a picture of that. 

John


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks John, I have Norm's email address already. I live about 20 minutes from him. Hans told me to add the stiffer spring or doubled-up springs to the 4 drive axle. 
2)I talked with Charles about the hinge on the cab roof. I might try and make something a bit stronger for that hinge before I drill any holes. Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

come to think of it, I need to contact Norm myself. Could you get me an email address?


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## dmcole (Feb 15, 2008)

[email protected]


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

My favorite way to run a train is slow pulling a lot of cars. Because of this the blower is turned up with a hot fire. The axle pump is just about always set to pump water into the boiler. About the only time I run fast is when the site glass gets low. At that point I run enough fast laps for the pump to refill the boiler. One problem though, if it is not a large enough engine the pressure will drop fast because of the new water coming in cooling things off. However, this is why we run Live Steam and not Sparkies. The fun is balancing these factors to the engine being run. And...............it does not take a rocket scientist to do it. Case in point........................ I can do it.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

The Aster Mikado Kit has arrived to my door this afternoon. Like a kid, I went through the box excitedly. Careful, but very excitedly. While I feel competent and able to build this, I must admit I felt a bit apprehensive as I looked at all those copper pipes, brass parts and hardware. BTW, while the kit has both pump kits, I have yet to locate the pump handle for the tender pump. Not too worried as I am told I can make due with some brass tubing, but if anyone has a spare on hand that they know would fit the pump on the Mikado, let me know and we can work out the details. There are some things I need to do for a couple of weeks before I go on vacation, but I plan to commence the building as soon as possible.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah
Welcome to the wonderful world of Aster. The downside, kids, vacation and other day to day obligatons with a brown setting there beckoning you to "build me!" Well, given your schedule and vacation you will have memorized the instruction booklet by the time you start the kit. Kind of disappointed, getting an Aster kit is like the first child....photos and photos but none posted.


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## thumper (Jan 31, 2009)

Jeremiah, now is the time to introduce yourself to Hans Huwyler at Aster USA. http://www.asterhobbyusa.com/


Hans is your "Go To" guy when it comes to Aster parts. Service is good, many parts, even for very old locomotives are available, and prices are usually good. Get a quote first though as some prices from Aster Japan are outrageous [i.e. silicone bathtub sealant $18.00 per tube plus shipping]. I'm still angry about that one, but I didn't ask first.


If you order the pump handle quickly, you will probably have it before you will actually need it for pumping water.


Again, read the instructions cover-to-cover [with the drawings in front of you] before you ever pick up a screwdriver.


When you do start construction, remember the Locktite [mid strength] for those screws, nuts and bolts which just hold things together.


Good luck,


Will


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I will get a few pictures up today which I will provide a link. Thanks for the tips.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I am looking forward to the day that I will purchase an aster kit! (I have seen them in person at diamondhead,they always make me drool lol). But for now my future plans are to get this Regner kit - Willamette( with my best friend - maybe he will get bitten by the live steam bug!)(joint venture of selling stuff on ebay to pay for it) and finishing up my workbench. The workbench is basically done(will post pictures soon in my old thread) but its looking for a lathe and a mill lol (have to run that by the CEO lol). 


Anyway, have great fun in putting it together, and yes get in touch with an Aster dealer like Hans for anything that is missing or any questions. You can also always ask here!


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Taperpin on 12 May 2011 05:22 PM 
Asfar as am aware, Electric versions where only ever RTR...and Aster UK website has a listing of numbers built etc..and the year.

The electric builds Ive seen are NYC J1a , Commodore Vanderbilt , [only built eletric], KGV,Climax,[CNWRR],PRR K4 and I think the DB 03 4-6-2..no doubt there are others.


Gordon 


Gordon, with a notable exception of the JNR EF58 of course. Aster intended electric models for collectors, this is why they were offered RTR (or rather RTS - Ready To Stand). A part of the live stam kits is always offered built up, and many end up as shelf queens, but somehow the ultimate collector may want the cab fittings, and none of that 'ugly' live steam stuff;-), so the electrics were born. EF58 is a completely different story. It is an electric prototype intended to be run. And it is also the second model of an electric prototype after the GG-1 of course. EF58 is currently still available, and I am full of admiration how the curved smooth lines of the prototype have been captured in this model (and in the coaches). With that in mind, the GG-1 is a pure work of art IMHO. Essentially, I would not hesitate to place it in an art gallery... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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