# A new mountain



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

*A new mountain (or two)*

I'm starting on a new mountain project, which will be built of concrete shell over a wooden armature. The intent is to not only add interest, but also to make a visual barrier between the prototypical side and the "back stage" area where the return loops do their thing. 

For the shell, I'll be relying on threads / articles from TJ Lee, Ray Dunakin and others. Thanks guys!!

Here's the CAD plan, with the structural members in white:










If you stood at the right side of this plan and looked toward the left, here is what you'd see at the moment:










The lower left frame is for a walk-over platform, which will have a lift-up hatch for tunnel access. The lower right and far frames, with the long posts, are just there for mountain support. There will be a connecting backbone in the middle. The tall far frame will be open toward the path beyond, sort of like a cave, for tunnel access there. 

The lumber is treated 4x4 and 2x6, with gravel & concrete footers. The posts will be cut down, as the armature and lath (hardware cloth) are developed. 

I hope to complete the armature this weekend, and post some progress pics.

Thanks for viewing,
===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't know if I like always hav'n to sign in here just to see pix and attachments...??

Course whence I want to pipe up n say sumtin..it is done!!

Don't cut the posts...build really BIG mountains Cliffy!!!!!!! No.....!! 
Pretty green your way..all those leaves and trees..greenest thing here is lettuce in garden..and the pine trees!!

Great beginning..thanks for sharing too..I'm way behind...

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk!
I hear ya. Not sure how tall the mountain will be yet, that's part of the fun for later... Stay tuned for chicken wire and blankets...

Here's a closer shot of the main frame.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

How are the posts set??

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The post holes are about 8" deep with tamped gravel at the bottom. After the posts were rammed down and the "table" was built, I put enough concrete down to stabilize things against the rain (but ran out). More concrete this weekend. Not as sound as proper deck construction, but I feel it's good enough.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Just keep your "Parties" ...confined to your deck...

No mountain top parties at Cliffy's....just remind the guys to behave when they come over n play trains...


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff, glad to see you started on your mountains, will be watching your progress, please keep us posted.
Dennis


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll be watching your progress with interest Cliffy. I've always wanted do have a go at a Monument Valley type Butte.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Looks good Cliff. I will be interested to see the details of mesh, concrete, etc as I have a long narrow space I am considering that process for to use as a backdrop to my layout

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I sure appreciate the camaraderie, especially when I get into something I don't know much about -- like this!

Here's an update shot:










Main things remaining for this "armature" are finishing the hatch (in the foreground), a step or two on either side of it, and a decent brace in the tall middle post. Then comes tunnel walls, I suppose, before the mountain itself.

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sky's the limit!
Add a diagonal or two, triangles are the stiffest.... hmmm must be what's in me knees.
We don't know much either, unless asked, I enjoy learning through others successes, long before from my mistakes!
Looks like plenty of height for an aerial tram.... gravity powered... and a Swiss chalet and .... dog sled races ...and Santa!
Have fun.
John


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## mymodeltrain (May 14, 2013)

Very nice rail and foundation. I wonder when you built the elevated rail, do you make the foundation first (based on the photo, is it wood foundation) then lay the rail after that? the trick is how your rail fits on the foundation precisely. Please share the information or if there is a book teaching that knowledge please let me know.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
I am not wanting or trying to hijack your thread,
I will post 7 pictures of one area I did, The first will show the wood frames
steel mesh, then the cement being applied.
I just hope this will answer some questions, or create more,


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Now the same mesh above covered in cement























Below will be a scene where the cement was placed in the evening and then
textured the next morning.












Next picture, cement was textured the next morning, let dry a couple days then painted


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

The first cement picture was set up for the cliff hanging structures
this picture shows the structures












Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

About the height, we'll see, John! The posts are just 8-footers, waiting to be trimmed. Not sure yet by how much yet. 

MyModelTrain, if you refer to the roadbed, thanks for asking, and it's concrete over gravel. Marty, JJ and others here were my mentors. Here's a thread on its construction, 

http://forums.mylargescale.com/16-t...19361-finally-doing-roadbed-5.html#post217015

Dennis, wow! Thanks very much for posting those, what wonderful results! I like your mesh, I just looked it up and Lowes has it 50% off through June 29 (nice!). I was vaguely thinking about using heavy hardware cloth for the rough contour (supported with bracing, like you did), with a finer mesh wired over that. But from your pics, it seems I can just brace the mesh directly.

So here's some questions... You're using mortar, right? What brand, and how thickly do you lay it on as a minimum? Does the mesh tend to rust away on the rear side? I'll bet you have a build thread...

===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
I use MORTAR MIX just add water. I use type S, a little stickyer, some stronger and
Drys faster, I like it because I can place it in the late evening, and texture it before 
Work in the morning.. Regular mortar mix works great if you pour around 5-6 in 
Evening and texture seven to ten in the morning,
THICKNESS
From .75 to couple inches, I started last fall with a new technique I really
Like. I have purchased some latex molds from Bragdons and I make up several
Of these around 1-2" thick, the advantage other than looks great, I drill a
Hole in some of them and screw to the boards( fresh mud behind them)
And fill in between them. This allows to build the wall a lot faster because
You can build up without waiting to dry, 
More later


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

This mountain was in one of the layouts we seen at this years NGRRC in Tampa. While the layout was not finished, the mountain looked a little much to me. I couldn't see the trains for the mountain. Must have been 8 foot tall.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

WOW Randy...

I sure hope you don't say that same remark about large mountains on My Layout!!!!!

Looking cool guys..both Cliff & Denray.....

Got some work to be done here.. Maybe next year..you guys have time for more practice before heading out west to build some really large rock formations...!!!!

Thanks..keep up the great work!!
Dirk


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

On outcroppings I will drill a few holes and screw in screws place something 
Like a board under the screws and place cement on the board, when dried some
I will remove the board and texture it, (hours later or next day)
Texture around the bottom side will produce a non flat bottom, after
Painted, will never know it was added on, have done that months
After the main mountain was made. 
This technique will produce the opportunity the have cement mountains
With deep crevices and cracks
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Many thanks for the further notes Dennis, I appreciate it.

Been finishing the armature today, mainly concrete for the posts, a center brace, the removable walk-over hatch, and cleanup.



















This last pic shows the rear brace. The mountain won't go much higher than the top of that diagonal. 

Thanks for that pic Randy, and yeah, I want to avoid that effect. 

===>Cliffy


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

CliffyJ,

Great project. Can't wait to see the finished mountain.

Best,
TJ Lee


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks TJ!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dennis, do you use the same method for tunnel liners? I think I saw some behind a portal. If so, how far back do you go?

As for your wooden braces, are they meant to permanently act as braces for the concrete, or are they mainly there to keep the mesh in place as the mortar is curing? 

Last question, with your .75 to 2.0" thickness, how resistant is the shell to external pressure? For example, have you ever sat or leaned or stepped on a section, and have it crack? Any lessons learned there?

Thanks,
Cliff


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
I have made me a couple of these tunnel portal form out of galvinized steel.
With the bottom like this, after it sets over night I can pull the two sides in to the
middle, this will allow the form to drop enough to pull out, so I can texture the opening. This gives me 2-6 inches on the inside to look like a tunneled wall.
If the inside of the tunnel is real visible I will try to finish up to look like a rock wall that has been blasted out. If it is not real visible I just leave it open on the inside.
I can sit on, stand on, and walk on my mountains. Most of mine is set so I dont need to crawl around on them, but I can.
The wire does hold things together to create the wall as the cement is placed 
and dries. The wire does add some structual strength, after the cement dries, and the wood adds some to. but yes it is pretty well self supportive after the cement is placed.
The main reason I like 1-2 inches thick is for strength, and for the capability to
texture as deep as I desire when I am texturing the cement after it has dried several hours.
Hope this helps.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, you answered all my questions. And I'm happy to hear how well the shell is self-supporting!

If you don't mind, I've got a couple more...

- How & when did you lay the concrete over your tunnel liner form? And did you use the mesh for that?

- How are you dealing with your edge on the ground? Gravel? Trench? Lapping the mesh over the dirt and slathering the mortar over everything? 

- Any thoughts on filling with spray foam, for critter exclusion?

Almost got all my materials together, my local Lowes had to truck in the diamond mesh from another store, so I'll pick that up tomorrow.

Thanks again,
Cliff


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
I will lay up molds and cement 2-4" from the opening, they are all dried.
Then I set the form into position, spray it with WD40, place the cement into place, let it set several hours, pull out the mold, then texture the cement.

Ground
I place the mesh on the ground, if the ground is uneven, I just fold up the mesh to fit the ground.
Warning, do not try to make this stuff PRETTY, it gets covered, I over lap, fold over, wad up, it gets 2-3 layers thick in places. I use screws made for the mesh
I use 1" long. They have a large head, so washers are not neccessary, I have used screws and washers. They are more clumsey, and time consuming.
When I put this mesh up, it takes little time, because trying to make it fit right and make it pretty, would take bunches longer. Screwing to the wood is what takes the most time. A good pair of snips is critical. 
Spray foam?
IF I wanted to foam it, I would use blocks of foam and stack them, attach the
mesh to to the blocks and cover with cement. 
I spray the inside with WD40 in the spring and once in the summer, that helps keep out wasp and other incects out.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, great tips. Love the WD40 trick.
I'll dive in this weekend, wish me luck...!
CJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't forget a tall coool one..
A beach towel after jumping in..might get wet!!
Esp. Just relax an have fun!!!!

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk, and you as well!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yesterday I finished the steps to the "bridge," and today was about initial messings with the lath and mortar. 

I'd taken some progress shots, but just found that my camera card was blank. So I un-staked the tarp some (a storm's coming, don't want to wash out the mortar) and took this lame shot:










This is mainly a layer of 'crete for dirt stabilization; it goes all through that tunnel, and the mountain will cover it all. 

The lath work went well (thanks again for the tips Dennis), and it was a lot of fun smoothing on the mortar. I sure enjoy forming it with my bare hands, but I can only get away with that for the first one or two days before my fingertips wear out, ha ha! But, the mountain-work is mainly with a trowel I suppose.

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Try those lizard gloves..
They have textured grips on the inside of your palms and fingers..cotton on the back side..
Great for motor work..good feel and control also

Dirk..darn cameras...............


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Are you using or planning to use a sealer or preservative on all the above ground wood work?

????????'s

ThX

Dirk


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy;

Some types of concrete are not good for your skin (check the packaging label). I would echo Dirk, but suggest a sturdy pair of rubber gloves instead. I recently had to do some patching with hydraulic cement, and the rubber gloves worked just fine.

I use a version of the "lizard gloves" Dirk mentioned for ringing handbells in our church's handbell choir. ( I have hot, sweaty hands. It just would not be proper if a bell slipped from my hand and beaned somebody in the front pew! I have to wear gloves when I play the steel drums for that same reason.)

Best,
David Meashey


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good idea Dirk, I'll look for those. And thanks for your advice David. Maybe I'll try both.

Since the wood is treated, and will be enclosed, I wasn't going to do much else with it. The exception would be in two areas: the permanently exposed wood around the larger access cavern, and the bridge (partly seen in the last pic). That I'll stain (same as the main deck). 

Thanks,
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Did some framing today...










I love the lack of precision needed for this sort of thing...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Precision...of a different..tolerance!!

Starting a new "Art Form" ..are we Cliffy?

Dirk


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Don't worry about the concrete..... Chicks dig scars..... 

Looking good 

JJ


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff here is a couple pics of what I am working hope this give you an idea or two
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk, I'm thinking of stringing some Christmas lights on it! And John, using the tools in the above photos, I expect one could turn oneself into quite the chick magnet, ha ha!

Dennis, I love your platform work, and yes, it gives me good insights into your methods, so thanks for that.

Question, do you lay it all up at once, let it semi-harden overnight, and carve that (the next morning)? That's what I gather from an earlier post. But now I'm wondering if you lay up a base coat, let that set fully set, and then lay on a second coat for texturing? And do you have any videos of your carving?

===>Cliffy


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff
re: wood longevity; if you want to be conservative, you might get a good wood preservative and treat the cut ends of your pressure treated art work. End grain always soaks in moisture, and it can't hurt in our lovely semi tropical climate

Jerry


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

Seems like you have a plan and are executing it nicely. And have received some good suggestions above my pay grade. I would just like to throw out this cheap and dirty video I made.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Jerry, great point. I'll do that.

Mike, I've seen your videos, wonderful! I appreciate how you take the time to show the work actually being done (vs. a slideshow). Thanks for posting it here!

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's today's progress shots. 





































The mesh work was great fun! I liked its rigidity + pliability. I've learned that gloves are vital (I'm using cheap leather ones from Harbor Freight), and that I probably over-framed. 

Having said that, the doubled joists made it very easy to add additional braces as desired (above, below, between), while keeping all the not-rated-for-ground lumber above ground. Probably not a big deal, seeing that the mortar shell will be mostly self-supporting; but I just felt better working it like that. 

Jerry, I should be able to paint through the mesh to coat the board ends. Good catch. 

====>Cliffy


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff what is your curve diameter and grade on the inner loop?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Randy,

That inner one is mostly R5', but has a section of R4'. The entire upper loop is R4', pretty tight. 

Only the lowest level has a grade, and it's slightly less than 2%.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Use a spray bottle to seal the ends, after the wood is sealed rinse off the mesh.
Your mesh work reminds me of my window screen HO efforts back in 66. Hardshell soon followed...

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Can I watch.!!!!

I'll make popcorn....

:-D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good idea John. 

Yeah, Mike M's and TJ Lee's method, using mortar-soaked fabric, reminds me of my old hardshell days too, back in 72-ish. And I agree, this mesh (which replaces the fabric, for thicker mortar) does look a lot like screen,


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

What no more paper towels...

Use super siZed...super strong...super super towels - reccomended for heavy outdoors use!!

Have yer hart shell and climb on it too!!

;-)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

But wait...I have a ?

What are the vertical wood blocks holding the track up...
Its beside the new mountain....in a depression of sorts...

Could you remove those cemented blocks...n replace 'em with a trestle?

Just askin'.....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliffy, choose the 2nd pic, it has those drop cable bent supports you like.... but I sorta envisioned deck bridges between stone piers ....

From The Dirk and John landscapers co. When you apply the crete wipe the posts with slurry and use a pencil to draw in cement blocks, then you can point out the engineering marvels they are ... so straight and true!

yer buds, 
we care
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow...I'm in ka-hoots with My neighbor John....now

"The Dirk & John Landscaping Co."

....we do all your favorite landscaping...rock..hard shell..dirt...cement...brick...block work...lumber supports...rebar....you name it we did it...now pretty retired!!!

Better...Still play with trains

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Consultants.... great for giving advice, not so good taking any.


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## Michael W (Oct 10, 2012)

Hey Dirk and John, if you finish landsvaping my garden with me I am happy to play trains afterwards ( this of course includes BBQ)
Kind regards Michael


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Michael, It's simple; post pics of your work and we will tell you, er make suggestions, how to improve it for us.....
Consultants is the key word.
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha!! Thanks D&J, all ideas welcome! And nice pics John!

And, in the great-minds-think-alike department, that curved strip (with the wood blocks) is indeed a temporary bridge -- awaiting a permanent trestle. Note to self, post a pic of the model...

Got some more framing done yesterday,



















Today was wrapping up the framing, and getting more mesh done. It started raining hard all the sudden, so this was the only pic today:










Havin a lot of fun with the mesh... I'll almost be sad to see that part end! 

===>Cliffy

edit...
And in the "wishful thinking department," here's the trestle I'd like to build:


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Let me be a party poooper..did ya want to do tunnel liners first?
About time for a mud party....
Like the trestle rendering...yea!! 
Build it....build it....Build it!!!!!
..double dare.....


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Pretty nice drawing.....

Comment.: seems the double bent supports are not properly located to me...
Should be at bridge ends...not out under an open span....

GeeeeeZ....aren't we a tough bunch.!!!!!!

Dirk


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah buddy you need to study bridges and trestles built on the skew .....
Unfortunately I only have one example, but the idea is the bents should be parallel to the lower track.
Bridges are often skewed so that the sides are staggered like a parallelogram.... 
J


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts guys. When I get nearer that project, I'll have to start a thread on it . Suffice it to say, I painted myself into a corner with the two spans, so we'll have a bunch to talk about....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Bud, we will be happy to help, suffice to say we love the concept. Now it's just in the details.
I get to thank you now, while looking for 'teaching aids' I came upon an old friend of a bookmark .... Thanks!

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey I'm back..maybe phone will work a bit longer now.....

Miss me.....lol

Yea we really like.."LIKE" ...what ya got going CliffY!!

Not to worry about the details...

I learnt.all I know 'bout ngenerying..tricity...scenry...trestles an bridges..track laying...n a whole bunch a stuff I fergets..from studying model trains when ah were a yoing'n....stiill member some yet!!

So ifn ya go find that stick drawing I did for the 4 ft tall, N.G. trestle I got to build here..you'll see the bridge bents sitt'n aside the tracks a jus like John said..

We ed never lead ya stray CliffY...

Dirk..


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Almost got all the mesh up today. It's been taking a bit longer than I expected, but it's been fun. The time-consuming thing has been all the tunnel entries, which I resolved with the same mesh method, and adding bunches of additional framing to support it. 

Tomorrow will be tying up loose ends, and hopefully next weekend will be mortar work. I'll post some pics tomorrow of the completed mesh work.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ahhhhh..don't you long for just one more week on the mountains....

[email protected] Home!!

The BEST...

working on layout for a week.....

BETTER YET!!!!!

Looks great thar Cliffy....

Dirk...your Father's Day present...per chance....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk! Yep, I'd sure love another week off, but I need to go to work (and rest up!).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Been wrapping up the mesh phase today, so here's a few concluding pics. 





































I'd thought I'd have a lot of mortar by this time, but things just took longer. Tunnel entries, drainage provisions, bracing, etc. I should note that I took my time in joining adjacent mesh panels, using galvanized wire as ties. 

Lot of fun. And hopefully, mortar games begin next weekend.

===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Looks ready for the cement, looking great.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

your wire work really looks conducive for dirt mountains, rather than cement rock formations of mountains!!

I'm waiting Cliffy, but it's hard.....

Dirk


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

CliffyJ: enjoy all your posts re: your build. I went back looking for info on how you did the section that is supported by the 4x4 posts but couldn't find it. Looks like it could be Durock on top of posts? Please let me know how/what you used, or point me to thread where you explained it.
Thx.
Marty


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Marty, thanks for viewing.

I don't recall if I did a thread on that bridge or not. It's meant to be temporary, a placeholder for a trestle.

It's made of 2 layers of 1/2" treated plywood, with a rubberized masonry paint. Screwed to the 4x4 posts, which only go down a couple inches (and are potted with concrete) for fairly easy pull-out later. Pretty sturdy though.

It's been there for a couple years now, and holding up ok... for the time being...

If I were to make a permanent version, I'd consider (or at least put up for discussion) 3/4" or 1/2" acrylic with acrylic stiffeners beneath (a "T" shape).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I need to say that Dennis is helping me understand his cement technique, which I'll be following closely. Thanks Dennis.

However, I should start thinking about finished surface more, in regards to Virginia City NV mountains -- which is what I'm trying to emulate, in a remote sense. 

So here's some photos of the actual mountain this is supposed to be. In reality, a half mile away; on my layout, a foot or so from the tracks. Call it extreme visual foreshortening. 



















Back then, the mountains were pretty much stripped of anything that looked like a fuel source. Today, they still often look like that:










But, after all the work that will have been sunk into this pile, I don't want it to look totally boring (like covered with brown fuzz). So I'm willing to sex it up with rock outcroppings (Dennis has that nailed down), and -- hopefully -- find a method for some trees here and there. 

I should mention another constraint: real trees. I'm not gonna chop those pine trees down, and simultaneously stay married, in this lifetime. And those pines rain all kind of needles and mini-pine-cone-seeds. So this mountain will need to be cleanable with a strong leaf blower. Any foliage on it will need to hang in there. 

Though not the same mountain, this is very nearby, and has the look & feel I would love to achieve. 










For the time being though, I'll be going for the bare (rock-ish) necessities.

I guess it's obvious that I'm just thinking out loud here... But, all comments are welcome.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I started the concrete today, putting down 10 bags of sand mix all around the base. After this I'm switching over to regular mortar, since it sticks better.



















Tomorrow I'll attempt Dennis' method of carving some; if it's too hard, I guess I'll put a mortar top coat on and hack that later in the day, we'll see.

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow Cliff...that is sure gunna change things!!

How's your fingers...n back after being a "mudder" all day?

Looking great buddy!!

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dirk! 

I used those latex-dipped-front gloves, they worked better than I expected. 
Not hurtin too bad, but I think 10 bags is my max for a day.

Now, out to see if the crete hardened too much to carve...

Cliff


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliff,
Are your trestle bents going to be square cut timber or piled driven poles? If cut lumber you should plan for footings. Notched benches cut into the hill sides. Piles can be driven into the natural lay of the land.... ponderings of old.

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Or pretty rock retaining footings to support the bent bases...

...keeps ya above your finished ground line...

...that new cement surface ..I know your out carving on right now!!

Dont let wife know your using her fine kitchen knives fer the carving on the mountain rocks.... 
he he....

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Right you are John. They'll be cut timber, on piers. I'll pour those probably after the bridge is made, and probably sculpt the surroundings to suit.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm quite pleased with how things went today: laying mortar and carving it. Dennis has a neat method of laying down the mortar in the evening and carving before going to work the next day. But, my circumstances make me want to do a complete batch in one day, if possible. So, roughly following his approach, here's how things went.

I began plopping mortar at 8:00 am, working a thin coat onto yesterday's un-carved sand mix "foundation" layer (it had hardened too much to carve), and going about 8" to 12" higher. For vertical sections I had to make patties and press them into the mesh slightly, then work the edges a bit. I'm using Quikrete regular mortar, and applying with a shovel and working it by hand (with rubberized gloves).

The plan was to keep it up until the first batch was hard enough to carve. By 1:00pm it was plenty hard, and I'd laid 8 bags around the base. I carved for a couple hours, and here's the results.




























The carving went like this for me. First, using a cheapo pry bar, accentuate whatever "natural" creases there seem to be. Deepen and add more to taste. Then make some cracks with an old screw driver. Add strata lines with a wire brush. Clear the debris with a shop brush. Continue until happy or tired.



I think maybe 20-25% was completed this weekend, so that would mean 6-8 more days of this to go, over the next few weekends. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Boy Cliff...

Have you got "a Vision"...!!!!!!!!


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Cliff, did you put anything over your tracks while working with the concrete? They look pretty clean except for a couple of small rocks.
Alan W.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Benefits ..with privileges...

Lucky Cliffy....

Volunteers from the local "Virginia City Historical Preservation Society" do work on the weekends...they especially like doing track clean-up!!

But only on the weekends.....

Just a plug for the VCHPS' s.....!!

D


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff really looking good
?? Not sure why you handle cement with your hands, I never handle cement
With hands, I use trowel only, both sides, I will actually use the back side of the trowel
As much as the front side, with a little practice it works very effeciantly.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Deny...I also am accustomed to using both sides...doing block work..

Maybe I'm pre-trained (ha) for makin mountains of rocks....

Dirk


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Dirk you may be a self made mountain man too


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Good start, nice blobs, well you said...
Some of the fuzzies of your vision are clearing up!
I see!
Is it done yet? 
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Deny..got an idea..!!

I should try building a layout!!

..aside from that..I do live in the mountains...just look diff..here in the desert....

D


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## Skeeterweazel (Feb 11, 2014)

Almost like you knew what you were doing. Ha!

Looking good.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking good Cliff.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it!!

Dennis, it was hard trowling it onto the vertical sections -- and that base has a lot of vertical to it. It would peel off. But by lightly pushing on a "patty" (by hand, using gloves) it stuck. BTW, I'm using about 5 quarts of water to the 60lb bag, so it might be a little more mushy than it ought... I don't like it crumbly though, harder to blend. Do you dip the trowel in water? Or have any other tricks you haven't mentioned? 

Hi Alan, I covered the track with a strip of plastic, but it kept getting in the way of where I needed to blend the mud up to the roadbed. So I punted on that, and relied on more careful aim with the shovel (to get the stuff in the general area). That almost worked... like Dirk indicated, the only MD member of the V&TRR Historical Society will do the cleanup later. Now that the lower bits are down though, it'll be easier to lay down the plastic.

Skeeter, funny thing is, I don't. It was looking pretty bleak about 1:00pm yesterday, before any carving on the sad pile. But low and behold, using those steps I mentioned, it started looking like rock. I was so surprised that I immediately sent a pic to Dennis to say, "It's working!!"


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Vibrating a blob or patty will bring out the 'slip' which lets the blade glide and will help it settle into the mesh. Liquification flows around the mesh instead of being strained by the mesh as it's pushed through. Don't make it runny, just use it as another tool. Slapping with the trowel, gently, don't splatter, softens the blob.

Enough chit chat, is it done yet?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha! No, remember John, I'm the slow guy. But, I got Friday off, so I'm looking forward to 3 days of mud-slingin'. 

My mix wasn't runny, but it wasn't at all crumbly. But still, the bag said put in a gallon, and I was spraying in about an extra quart over that. So I'll experiment with less water in the mix, and try what you say. Thanks for the pointers.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
No I do not wet the trowel, using the back of the trowel is a big help.
Looking great, just keep on going and keep trying different things that might
make it easier for you.
Dennis


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What I was trying to convey is when it gets stiff, a little shaking can give more time. Also as a tool to work it.
It will become second nature when you're done.

Break is over....


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## honeybooboo (Jan 10, 2014)

Cliff,
Nice job man.... and Dennis is my Hero with his creations as well.

Boo Boo


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks HBB!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Totalwrecker said:


> What I was trying to convey is when it gets stiff, a little shaking can give more time. Also as a tool to work it.
> It will become second nature when you're done.
> 
> Break is over....


Thanks John, I'll work on it!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ha...its all in the wrist Cliff...
You can do it...
...think flipping hot dogs...

;-)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ugh...










1,440 pounds of hot dogs, now safely in the garage... That's probably about half of what the mountain still needs. 

One little tip. For my last two trips for the mortar (22 bags), I asked the folks at the store (Lowes) to help me out. And they did: they brought up a forklift, hauled the whole pallet out to my van, and helped me load it in. Free labor, happier spine. 

Another small tip. I retrieved a broken wheelbarrow from a neighbor who was gonna haul it to the dump. It needed new axle brackets and spacers. So I went online to order the parts, found them, placed the order. And they were free! The 'barrow was an Ames / TrueTemper. So I've been using that for delivery of the mixed mortar, and saving my Gorilla cart (which is less maneuverable) for shuttling bags of the dry stuff between the garage and my mixing station. 

One more day of rest (at work) before the fun begins... 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I haul 10-12 #80 pound bags in my little car....
Anytime I have the time & room...
Try to stay stocked up. And ahead of work load...
Or...
Up to 25 full cement block...

Comes out to.about 800 - 900 pounds in car!!
I get help anywhere I go to load.....
But try getting them to follow you. And help unload!!?

Good luck. .

Dirk. I flipped some mud today!!!! Progress...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I've got 80# of cement all safely stored in a plastic bucket with a screw on lid. Otherwise I always end up with cement pillows.....
Have fun, more pics..... the endless cry.
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey...who's chassen who around here..?

LOL....

D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I stack mine anywhere...
Slip a large trash bag over and lay brick or rocks on top....
Good to go...till the bag gets holey....

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another 8 bags laid up and carved today.



















Now that I look at it more, I don't like how I plopped things in that last shot (in the foreground). Looks like something unpleasant I've seen in a medical book. Might re-plop / carve later.

Since this is going to be a long-term effort in the direct sun, the first thing I did this morning was to take an hour to set up a sun shade.










It's rigged to be plopped down at the end of the day, and hoisted up when needed. We can get sudden afternoon storms in MD, with high winds, so stuff like this needs to come down easily.

As for the mortar, just like last Sunday, I laid up 8 bags until the first one was semi-hard: not fully set, but still easily carve-able. The carving goes much quicker than the mixing / plopping though, so half way through the carving stage I needed to go do something else while the later bags seemed hard enough.

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What's oozing between the elephant's toes?

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, it does look like that. Thanks.

Went better with the trowel today. With 4qts of water mixed to 60lb (what's recommended on the bag), nothing worked except my hands forcing the crumbly stuff into place. But with 5 qts it was much better.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Monumental effort Cliff, looks very good
Let me know when you need a break

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Jerry, will do!

Here's what the backside looks like with today's 8 bags added:










I'm selectively going back and making two or three bumps into one. As Dennis pointed out to me, that's what's nice about this medium: you can add as you wish (with a little spraying of the old stuff for better bond / curing). 

Added more around the access hatch / bridge:










Those plastic strips are just gap-makers for the mortar, so the hatch has clearance.

The portals look pretty goofy at this point, almost like those tombs cut into a rock cliff somewhere in Iran. 










Or Turkey.










I'd like to avoid that. So, the down-the-road plan is to make "stone" or timber portals, and re-work the mortar to suit. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Looking awesome Cliffy...
Will Jerry come over an mix mud for ya??
...perhaps a mud ball fight is in the making...

Just don't mix mud with beer...
Ya guys could have fun...
Wish I could drop in ..

;-)


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Looks great, Cliff ! --

Nah Cliff coming to visit my layout, poor guy needs some R&R and beer time...

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

ya know those mixing instructions are for sidewalks.... for Artists... merely guides.
It's fun watching you learn. 
As well as combining lumps, make some dramatic vertical forms, defy gravity!
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

It's a "Cliff- Hanger" ...

...leaving us in suspense... 

Jer...better get the trains ready, he's one pooooped puppy!!

Dirk


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I "LIKE" Your mountains better...and better than those in Turkey..

Keep it up Cliff...


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff you are really getting the hang of it, and they are really looking good, 
You will be amazed it gets easier, Still keep working with the trowel, you will 
soon be able to keep your hands out of it.
Dennis


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok ..dinners over ..back at it...!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys for your engagement here. Like I said near the beginning of this thread. I really appreciate the camaraderie -- especially when I'm entering unknown territory!

Today was focused on a tough area, near the access hatch. The back-story is that I wanted to keep grades to 2% or less, and that I needed certain tracks to cross over one another -- without much distance available to grant proper headroom. So some of these tunnels and portals look really dumb. For this one near the access hatch, I wanted to hide the flaw with a raised portal entry. I know, it looks really stupid. But, that's what I mainly worked on today.










The plan is to mess with this area until it doesn't look stupid. Mainly, to add another "V" of mountain in between that fork on the white table-thing. 









For the elephant toes, thanks John for getting the "combining-of-the-blobs" thought. I did some surgery there...










I did more tunnel-portalling blob-combining on the rear. Like you said Dennis, it's easy to work with this stuff, and add to what you did. 










So, that was today's gig. Lots of fun, like playing in the mud and having something to show for it.

One last thought. It's really nice to feel the result if this concrete shell. It's like... well, concrete. Whack with a hammer, it's like beating on concrete. Love it. 

===>Cliffy


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

Looking GREAT! Very very nice work.

Best,
TJ Lee


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy, in 10,000 years someone will unearth your mountain and wonder what it was for  That mountain will out last most things ever built. Looking great, keep up the nice work!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks TJ. Years ago I decided on going this direction, mainly because of your excellent articles / threads. So I feel like I owe you a beer, at the very least!

And thanks Jim, 'preciate it. I'm getting the same notion; I expect the ties will be powder, but the nickle-plated Train Li rails will be fine... Wonder if they'll think this whole thing was some sort of artificial snake habitat... Wonder if I'm gonna be wondering the same thing a year from now...

Which brings something up Dennis that I mentioned at the start of this. Seeing what you see now, do you still recommend throwing in the annual mothballs? I was opining earlier about filling the interior with spray foam. The main foam downside I can think of is difficulty in fishing any future wiring through. Or whatever. The downside with mothballs is the need to add hatches in the shell. But, after talking with you yesterday, I'm inclined to just saw additional hatches, because it seems easy to do from what you say. To include the other folks, as I understand it, the mini-hatch method involves making an irregular cut through mortar and mesh all around the intended hole, and adding a rock or something you can grab to pull it away. If I understood correctly, Dennis recommended a cut-off saw such as this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/120-volt-3-in-high-speed-cut-off-tool-68523.html

Oh day-aang, looks like I'm forced to order another tool...  But, from the HF mailer, a leetle coupon code that looks a heck of a lot like 43628587 gets the price to $19.99... Only good through today though, so gotta piece an order together real quick... darn it...

Back to the mountain progress. Today's efforts involved crawling back to my office job for 8 hours of "aaahhhh"; picking up another 12 bags of mortar on the way home, stacking 'em in the garage; and staying indoors after that. 

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Your hatches are like you practiced with all those punkin's, tapered so the plug don't fall in.
My pack rats would love your foam apartments, so quiet and insulated, not too hot, not too cold.... 
Walkin' with a stoop yet?

Looking fine, before the millennium passes, your friends will have you committed.

Yer bud,

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That's just what it sounds like John, the lid on the jack-o-lantern. 

And yeah, the mice we have would probably tunnel in just fine... and stay nice and warm... and breed all the more... But heck, they would be the perfect food source for all the snakes in the other room, haha!

Yep, been walking kinda stooped-like today... But, two more whole days of rest (going to work) until the next round, woo hoo!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya need a couple hard working kitties on your railroad work crew...
Chase the mice..
Play with 'em...till they can't play no more..
Results of this leads to no snakes in dark corners..
Equals no surprises...
No spray foam

Just one big happy family!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ding ..ding...
Ladies & Gentlemen....
In this corner. ..

Round 3


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/grinders-buffers/4-12-in-angle-grinder-60625.html
This is the type I use, if you are 2'' thick it will take a 5" blade to cut thru it.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Your doing great work Cliff..
Slow. ..... L.....y stand UP...
slowly take in a few .....deep...deeper....breathes...
Try it again.....
Reach your arms over your head..!!
Slow..l..y reach for the ceiling buddy...
You can stand up tall and straight...relax in this upright posture for a few minutes. .
Look ...stra8T ahead.....!!

You doing great work...
....now back to those great mountains!!

My threaputic bill will be in the mail!!

Have a great rest...D


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> Yep, been walking kinda stooped-like today... But, two more whole days of rest (going to work) until the next round, woo hoo!


 
When I do this kind of work, (and I did just finish a new textured concrete wall yesterday), I go in and let an Asian woman walk on my back for a couple hours (also yesterday). Does wonders! 


The area was supported by "stacked rock" and when kicked or bumped hard, they would fall and make a mess. This is not going anywhere and when it fades, the texture will become more obvious. As the thyme grows over the top, it will "soften" the wall.

http://largescalecentral.com/albums/photo/view/album_id/12039/photo_id/108394

http://largescalecentral.com/albums/photo/view/album_id/12039/photo_id/108393


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

> So I feel like I owe you a beer, at the very least!

Well, if I helped in any way I'm glad! You ever get to the Fresno area I'll take you up on your offer!

Best,
TJ Lee


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

GeeeeZ. 
TJ....your ...almost...across the street from me..

Ha..almost that is...!!!!

Used to visit family in Fresno...another family..nuther lifetime ago...

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis. I have one of those, but I should pick up more disks. Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that a lot. Unfortunately, I already ordered the cut-off saw, oops... 

Great work Todd, thanks for posting those. Are some of the big rocks real? 

Thanks Dirk, I feel better already! Here's the next batch, ready to go:










Let's see, how bout a little recap in the weight department. Started with around 5 bags of concrete for the posts. I've already got 20+22 bags of mortar down, and this will be 27 more. I'll guess it'll need 10 bags after that. So, 84 bags at 60 lbs = 5040 lbs. 

I was hoping that "pumping powder" would make me all buff and svelt, but so far that's not quite happening...  

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ya know TJ, a lot of my fam is in Ripon and Modesto, so... might happen!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

For pumping powder Cliff....
Ha ha ha...
You only need 1 bag..
You do need to keep lifting it over your head 100 times every other day however!!

Good luck..stay nimble buddy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Haha Dirk! 
Only problem is that this stuff leaks everywhere, so I'd be a powder-head in no time. And 'crete-head after a shower!

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Geez...Louise. ..
I hope Lowes gave You a discount...
Those bags ...look kind'a ...used...!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

When I goes to the big box stores with My hard earned cash...
I spects to buy ...New Stuff..
I went to H.D. once for a carload of block...
All I saw were used block..a 1/2 pallet stacked up.. stained dirty..been sitting on the ground someplace for a while...on a job...and returned!
They were used block to me...
I walked out and carried my cash down to Lowes..bought my carload n came home...

Next trip to H.D., they still had some used block there...
I picked around them ..for new ones..
Paid for new ones...came home...
...kept building a wall...too!!!

D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Gonna wash that crete right out'a My hair...

Just use crete free shampoo...
Works every time..
Add a hammer as needed....

Dirk

Sorry Cliff....my fingers made me do it..!!! LOL


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> Great work Todd, thanks for posting those. Are some of the big rocks real?
> ===>Cliffy


Some of each, but the biggest one is actually hollow (using my shape/tape/sift/mist method documented in _Garden Railways_ Magazine) and there is an electrical box under it.

When I do the texturing for a cliff/cut, I use crinkled aluminum foil and usually do it in one pour with 1/2" wire cloth to hold it back. I let it come through the wire mesh into the foil and let it set for a few hours before pulling the foil away. It results in more realistic texture as you can see in the ridge that lies beyond.

This time I needed the strength and was working next to the swale so I did an initial pour for strength and a second thin coat for texture resulting in less "depth." Also, I usually use the heavy duty foil and this was the thin stuff, so I lost some texture there too.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dirk, good eye. Since one bag was taped up, they offered me the torn bag for free. And of course, I said sure. And, for the fourth time in a row, two or three guys came out with the fork truck and helped be load it into the van. So I didn't really have to lift much until I got home, so that was neat.

Todd, thanks for explaining that. I was planning on doing some experiments with foil, for add-on outcroppings. So that's really encouraging to hear that you were successful. Do you spray on any kind of release agent? I was looking into that, and came away with the impression that it either stains or degrades the concrete or your bank account. For example, some folks spray on Pam, but that leaves a residue that can interfere with paint. Mainly, I wanted to make sure the foil didn't leave shiny bits behind. It sounds like that wasn't the case for you...? 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Todd, I found this heavy duty "food service" foil for $47,

http://www.amazon.com/Boardwalk-713...id=1404258168&sr=8-7&keywords=foil+heavy+duty

And this similar product (18" x 500') for $37:
http://www.amazon.com/Durable-Packa...id=1404258240&sr=8-2&keywords=foil+heavy+duty

At least it's cheaper than the Reynolds equivalent that goes for $99:
http://www.amazon.com/Reynolds-632-...id=1404258240&sr=8-6&keywords=foil+heavy+duty

Is this the sort of product you used?

CJ


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Any heavy duty foil is fine. I always bring out the Pam, but never end up using it after the first spray. Once you start working, your hands get to dirty to fool with it.

I find that if you make the crinkles deep and they overlap (foil sort of bends around itself) the mortar gets in the folds and when you pull it away a couple hours later, you pull away chunks/small sheets of the mortar mix. But in my experience, this gives it a deeper texture and these are the areas that look most real when it dries!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh! So the foil "wins" if you pull it out at the right time -- I get it! 

So please clarify... you DO spray pam on the foil? And can you get the heavy duty foil at your local grocery store (vs. the expensive examples I cited)?

CJ


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

No I don't spray it and yes you can get the heavy foil at the local store.

Here is a different picture of the prior ridge I did. In the second picture you can see where it meets a real rock at the "parting line."

http://largescalecentral.com/albums/photo/view/album_id/12039/photo_id/108398

http://largescalecentral.com/albums/photo/view/album_id/12039/photo_id/108399


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Can someone post pictures of the process using the foil. All I ever seen is the results and it doesn't make sense cause I don't see how you are doing it. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks very much Todd for those pics and answers.

But, I agree with JJ, do you have any more on the process?

Just as a sounding board, here's how I was picturing the process before this conversation:
- Troweling the mortar against the mesh
- Crumpling the foil, then stretch it back out 
- Force the foil against the mortar and work it in
- After the mortar begins to set, peel the foil out 

This was pretty much the experiment I was gonna attempt sometime this weekend. But from your experience, is that near the mark? 

And JJ, where do you get your (glass?) fiber concrete reinforcement stuff? And doesn't it mess with your skin? I can't seem to find it locally, but maybe I'm not using the proper search terms.

CJ


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

No pics of the process, but I can describe how I do it (and another common way afterwards).

If I want a ridgeline, like that shown, I cut back the soil to the desired contour.

About 1" out from the contour, I pound stakes in the ground and secure 1/2" wire mesh, vertically, to the stakes using drywall screws.

I take a piece(s) of the heavy foil about 1-1/2 - 2 feet long and crinkle it up and stretch it out (leaving wrinkles). Try to keep the creases "sharp."

Mix up the mortar/masons mix. I actually find masons mix to be a bit more "plastic." Trowel/shovel/hand it into the space between the contour and the wire mesh with lots of extra so that it is squeezing out of the mesh, and put some on the front of the mesh too. Lay the crinkled foil up against the mesh such that the mortar is squeezing into the foil and mold/work/slap the foil into the mortar.

Let sit for a couple hours then carefully pull the foil away. Then let it sit for a day undisturbed so you don't loose the sharp edges before watering it.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The second method is to use a mixing trough with a layer of sand in it. Crinkle up the foil and lay in in the trough. Spray is with WD-40/Pam/etc. Now put the mortar on that and let it set up making a molded "panel." Make several panels and mortar them together to make a mountain.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Excellent, thanks for the further explanation Todd. 

The mod I'll be attempting runs something like this:

-- Mortar substrate already in place
-- Wet the mortar down
-- Crumple then stretch out the foil
-- Plop a mortar plopper where desired
-- Wad / surround / mush the foil around the mortar plop
-- In about four hours (giving time to more fully set) carefully extract the foil

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

You can also apply hand fulls of mortar with the foil. Trowel some wet mix (not runny) into the foil in your hand, then press into the void. You can 'feather' the edges by thumb ironing the crinkles smoother.
This can model a rock that was cut back out of the right of way, while neighboring rocks were left alone.
More pics
Can we stick a fork in ya yet?

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes John -- exactly what I hope works! Dang, you stole my thunder brother! 

Yes, I'll post pics.. but I have about a ton of mortar to lay up before I get there. Might experiment though before I get to the top of the mountain, we'll see.

No, not any forks yet, we're still in the raw meat stage here ---!

C


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

CliffyJ said:


> Thanks very much Todd for those pics and answers.
> 
> But, I agree with JJ, do you have any more on the process?
> 
> ...



I get my stucco / mortar with the fiberglass stuff in it at Home Depot. 

I think you can get the fiberglass stuff by it's self and added it to anything 

JJ


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff I have used tin foil a few times with great results, I do mine a little different. I make I call molds. I use seven different latex molds, and some tin foil molds. 
Take a sheet of something like plywood or something, or lay plastic sheeting on the sidewalk, crumple up tinfoil lay on the plastic, wad up the tinfoil, spray with WD40 and place cement 1-2 inches thick, let set over nite, and carefully pickup the concrete the next morning and pull off the foil, with quite amazing results.
I will do one tomorrow nite, and take pictures. The reason, I use molds is so I can lay up 2-3 ft height at a time. I have done without molds, and done with molds, it is much easier, and faster with molds. 
Dennis


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Buy fibermesh at your ready mix cement plant


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

I use only TYPE S mortar mix for molds, harder than type N
Dennis


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

The problem with the fiberglass is that it leaves the apparent strands at the ends and surfaces. These can then be burned off with a propane torch.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the further tips guys!

Here's the sort of outcropping I'd like to try for,


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, are you planning to incorporate any real rock into your mountains? Not far from you is WV with lots of different rock that can be found along the highways for the taking. Rt 50 from Redhouse Maryland over to Grafton WV has lots of places where the rocks are exposed.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Great minds..you & I ..Randy...
Cliff...take Jer with ya rock collecting..take a couple 5 gallon buckets to save small rock shards in...use 'em below rocks for debri fields..rock slides n such.

Have fun..a field trip is [email protected]


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Taking a break on the 4th...?

Or diggin deep in mud??

;-)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Cliff..your photo above is so refreshing!!
Been around those hills a lot..


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Randy & Dirk, great ideas. Dirk emailed me yesterday, and asked, why not use rock? So simple I'd overlooked that option.

Today though was a continuation of the main surface-laying. The focus was on the front side, and adding a ridge in the fork to help disguise the strange tunnel situation. 

Unfortunately, I went out there with the camera and couldn't keep the lens from fogging up. Right after taking these, and big storm began moving in (and is sill building up).




























Nine bags down today, more to come. Wow, it's really thunder & lightening... 

power flickering, going out


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

n.....my light.N.ing...!!!!
HIT the hills near me.!!!! FIRE ALERT......
Started a fire..a few hundred feet below the towers..
...the ones I use to vent here ..
.....or send emails from...

And its at Cliff's home Tooooo?!!

Cliff..your rock work is "camping over"..eh!! Cool..nice tent man!!

Dirk


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

denray said:


> Cliff I have used tin foil a few times with great results, I do mine a little different. I make I call molds. I use seven different latex molds, and some tin foil molds.
> Take a sheet of something like plywood or something, or lay plastic sheeting on the sidewalk, crumple up tinfoil lay on the plastic, wad up the tinfoil, spray with WD40 and place cement 1-2 inches thick, let set over nite, and carefully pickup the concrete the next morning and pull off the foil, with quite amazing results.
> I will do one tomorrow nite, and take pictures. The reason, I use molds is so I can lay up 2-3 ft height at a time. I have done without molds, and done with molds, it is much easier, and faster with molds.
> Dennis



I tried that several times with monstrous disastrous results.

I must not have got enough release agent on the foil.

It has been so long I forgot what I used for Release agent. 

I tried the Burlap and concrete method. My Mountain looked like a pile of rags. 

But after a multitude of disasters I press on 



JJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Get your news stories here...
A blow by blow...
Weird eh..why is a western story...in the news back east!??

John should be reporting!!
Alan should ..investigate...
I'm just watching it spread ...up hill..to the towers..
Three trucks and crews have arrived so far...babie sitting duties..
More lightning also...!
D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah Dirk, they've been predicting this big storm over us here for some time now. Might just blow over without much result, don't know. 

Today was HOT, 95 and high humidity. Some shade though allows me to keep a-goin', in this case just that big tarp from Walmart strung up as well as I could. 

I think it's the direct sunlight that saps my strength most, vs. the actual heat. 

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for saying what your results were JJ on the foil. All I can say is that when I get to that "detailing" stage, I'll try to describe what I encounter, step by step, for better or worse...

Question, was the problem you experienced that the cement adhered to the foil too strongly? 

CJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Just now....they called for a drop....
A small single place fighter came in...circled slowly several times...flew a bit away ..and then like an Eagle...doove at it's prey...dropping red slurry ...right on target....

SO COOL to watch....off it flew ..having dropped its load....


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> Thanks for saying what your results were JJ on the foil. All I can say is that when I get to that "detailing" stage, I'll try to describe what I encounter, step by step, for better or worse...
> 
> Question, was the problem you experienced that the cement adhered to the foil too strongly?
> 
> CJ


 
That's why I pull it out after ~2 hrs. Too much longer and the cement wins.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Todd. I find that the cement sticks VERY well to all my tools, even if only after an hour. So I get what you're saying!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

A second drop also was successfull...on the west flank below the towers...
A third showed...made a hard banked turn ...n retreated.
..must a been called off..
..yet I can still see open flames ...burnin away..


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Use unstick'em...to clean tools...
..I just call it water...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

What's slowly emerging in my now mortar-encased brain are a number of options for secondary "detailing" processes in the shaping of this terrain. All involve applying new mortar to the main mortar surface. All assume a mortar substrate that is now sculpted and quite hard.

1. Real rock, bonded-in with mortar
2. Mortar formations made with heavy-duty foil and perhaps a release agent 
3. Mortar formations made with latex molds pulled from real rock
4. Mortar formations made with commercially-purchased molds

So, lots of options. And then will come coloration and foliage and portals and bridges, but I'm just not there yet...one step at a time....

=__-+>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Keep on a stepp'N Cliff...

Two more aircraft..made two drops a piece...
...still...the slight winds are fanning the flames....
..just needs a real good gully washer now!!

D...try all your concepts ...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Are you talking about fire-tankers putting out a fire?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Indeed...just had even another drop...
Mostly simmering very well now...
What an afternoon show...
But two miles can be toooo close in the terrain we have here...
Add some bad winds...which are pretty not too bad today...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

All . AIR TRACTOR - AT 802

Small turbine powered tankers...
Hot dogs at dropping retardent...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

No undercuts with foil, it doesn't have elasticity to pull out of those recesses. The aim is an irregular surface not an item. You don't see the rock so much, as you see where rocks have been blasted away. 
To get Outcrops you'll need contrasting slopes of dirt, talus or vegetation. Shrubs, grasses and scrub trees can provide textures.... see the pic above.... 

Didn't know Dirk had fire, I've been enjoying rain...

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

With rain..comes fire starters!!
Forestry with two crew trucks.n. two tanker trucks just reached hill top..

I got no rain....must'a been at edge.....

Do a test area Cliff.....a little bit of it all...complete texturing..trees bushes. rocks ..dirt...
..have fun two..hoist a beer tomorrow!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Atleast this time ..it is under controll before dark!!

A couple years ago..had one start about dinner time..no planes!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

John....did ya feel the earthquake last weekend at 10:00pm....

Reached us...vibrating deep down under cabin...it did!!!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah I felt the tumbler, wasn't much, I'm a Ca native! 
As it rolled through I laughed to myself An Az quake! Gonna be much ado about nothing.
Dirk's fire was lightening strike caused...
Happy 4th All Y'all (that's the plural)
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hi ya-allllll....meaning ALL a [email protected]
A hollern an a whoooopn it up on the 4th..

Don't know ifn I'm keeping up which ya Cliffy...
Did some work this morning..
3 bag - mortar mix
3 bag - crete
3 - regular block
3 - bondm beam block
....about a 4 hour period of solid work...on break.....!!

Dirk


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

CliffyJ said:


> Thanks for saying what your results were JJ on the foil. All I can say is that when I get to that "detailing" stage, I'll try to describe what I encounter, step by step, for better or worse...
> 
> Question, was the problem you experienced that the cement adhered to the foil too strongly?
> 
> CJ




It sure did. 

JJ


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Me thinks that our poor tired Cliffy boy didn't go out to play today...

Eh's pooped...too many mud parties at his house. ..

Rest up..theres lots more mud where that came from..and needs to go ..
...layer after layer...

.... :-D. .. oh my


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well Dirk, actually I went out and mudded -- for 4 days straight! Wasn't able to post until now, and my phone's been messing up. But it's been beautiful weather, and the mud's been flyin'!

Over these 4 days, I put up 36 bags and almost finished the main shell of the thing. Here's a pic from yesterday, shot by my wife Linda.










From today:



















Today's batch was Sakrete, and it behaved quite differently from the Quikrete (regular) mortar I used elsewhere. The Sakrete takes longer (the type N) to set, seems sandier and less tacky, and takes less water to mix. I think it'll be ok in the painting stage, we'll see.

The bag tally is 83 (4,980 lbs) at this point. I'm anticipating another 12-ish more.

Next is finishing the back side & tunnels, and doing mesh / mortar in the cavern area. Might be a couple weeks till I can get to it, but I'm very happy to have the main shell in place. 


===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So like you missed the fireworks!!
OK...I missed 'em too!! Was raining here...

Periscope up eh kid!!
Got a cap....fer a mountain....

Gunna have old homes clinging to the rock out croppings there Cliff!!?

Looks like Fun...

Now your gunna have to build a couple of those family run mines...working a small hole from the mountain side..or down....!!

Glad family is all home now...home cooking...ya got lots done!!!

Rest up ....D


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff you are a real certified mountain man. You have really made great progress. I see that guy peeking his head over the mountain, he is the one that is laying all the cement. Seriously, it looks absolutely awesome. Anxious to see it painted and some structures hanging on it.
Question, since you have done so much, I bet you are seeing things differently. Are you seeing little areas where you can place small rocks along the tracks. 
Adding large outcroppings in small areas is quite easy if you want too.
Keep us posted and keep the pictures coming.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Right Dirk, "Periscope up" is definitely a good description. That's a neat idea for smaller operations on the back side. That's the freelance side, so I feel vaguely permitted to do what's fun, ha! The "cavern" thing is also way unprototypical, so it might get interesting eventually, maybe with a mine tunnel breaking into that scene.

Thanks much Dennis, I truly appreciate the affirmation (in addition to all the great advice on this technique). And you bet, it's a modified perspective now. For example, I see how easy the shell is to modify. A few days ago I figured how where I could place planks for the wheelbarrow (and where I couldn't). I learned yesterday that my shop vac picks all the post-carving debris up. 

BTW, I'm gravitating toward making the upper parts smoother to seem more distant. Still working that out. And since I can climb on the thing, I'll probably add some footholds to make scenicking and cleaning a little easier. Very easy to do. And you bet, I'm looking forward to some experiments with real & cast rock. And foliating and painting. That's the fun icing on this concrete cake, and I'll be seeking out your experiences as I move along. 

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Put a snow cap on it....

Good Job A+

John


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Looking really good Cliff. Look forward to bringing my two Shays over there for a run sometime soon

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A snow cap, that would be funny John!

Thanks Jerry. You remind me that I've gotta resolve the non-dcc return loop issue...

For the record, here's an article describing Ray Turner's approach. Dennis, is this similar to your new pre-cast rock method?

http://familygardentrains.com/primer/rocks_n_cliffs/rocks_n_cliffs.htm

The article also has a link for downloading a how-to for TJ Lee's method.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff I sent you a private message


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff that is the article that got me interested in doing that some 7 plus yrs ago, I had misplaced it. I love his designs of adding rock walls for structures and placing structures on stilts.. Cool cool cool.
Thanks for the post again
Dennis


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff I will give you a call tonight or wed after 9;00pm. pete


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Cliff,

Great job, I will certainly be referring to this when I progress enough to start thinking about some rocky outcroppings.

I'm still moving dirt and hoping to be able to lay track by xmas....;-)

Bill


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

See what ya went an did Cliffy...

Now you'll be producing a DVD video series on "DIY - Cement Mountains in Minutes", by Cliff..

Have fun..we're all watching here..


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

A sincere thanks guys. Like I said near the beginning, I sure appreciate the camaraderie and input from others here. If it weren't for the friendship here on MLS, I doubt that I'd have been as motivated. If it weren't for the expertise here on MLS, I know I wouldn't have had nearly the outcome. 

Lots more challenges to come. Pete, thanks so much for your advice today on concrete coloring. It will be a lot of fun getting into that stage of things, which will hopefully be in two or three weeks. Until then, there will be finishing the shell and then outcropping / texture experiments. Then coloring, which will be so much fun!

Then fake foliage. I'm pretty sure it's gonna look fine the first year, but after that, not so sure. But it will be fun trying.

And then will come the north mountain, on the other side of the layout... Maybe that will need to wait until next year, not sure.

Thanks everybody for going through this adventure with me.

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today was finishing the main shell...










...and adding the mesh in the "cavern":










===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff looking very good, looks like you are on the down hill grade in your build.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Dennis, yes, nearing the end at least for this shell. Then there's the mountain shell on the other end of the layout, but I want to have some fun with this one first.
Thanks!


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff I mailed the acid on Tuesday you should get it thursday or Friday. pete


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

pete said:


> Cliff I mailed the acid on Tuesday you should get it thursday or Friday. pete




ACID? What you gona do with Acid/ 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Pete!
JJ, it's a special concrete-coloring acid. Pete uses it for his club's mountains, looks very nice. Pete was nice enough to ship me a sample to try out.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

And today is one more day off...so..
Cliffy is a working them mines hard!!
..but they aren't built yet...
..cause the ore isn't in yet...
......cause they need a mountain to hide under...

That which Cliff is working on...today!!

Go for it...Team V&T...!! Ra ra ra....!!!

0ooooPs ...me again!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha! Thanks Dirk! 

Yep, got that cavern area about half-way done, and the tunnels mostly done. Went and fetched another 9 bags for tomorrow, that should get er all done (maybe). 

Pete, your box came today, thanks again! It might be a week or two till the mortar dust settles, but I'm sure looking forward to seeing what the acid does.

===>Cliffy


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

Looking forward to the final result!

Best,
TJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I was sure you were going to model shafts and stopes in there.
I'm glad we get to see what the acid does to the mountain instead of what you'd do on acid.... oh no! It's a flash back! ha ha ha


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff IF YOU have a power washer wash off the mountain from TOP to bottom, to knock off
any loose pieces, if no power washer, use a hose with a powerful stream, sprayer. 
Let dry a couple days before coloring.
This helps prevent small chunks from falling and exposing uncolored spots.
I had once some stuff built up in a crevis, colored, then the loose stuff started to move out exposing an uncolored area.
Dennis


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

PETE Do you have a link for this Acid? 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good call, Dennis. Yes, I have a power washer, and I was going to use it already for the track cleaning stage. So that would be easy to do at the same time. Great idea! Also, that cleaning effort would also be a good time to test drive all the drainage lines and culverts. 

TW John, yeah, some nice square-set timbering would be way cool. It would be crazy-nuts (the "on-acid" part?) for trains to run through something a thousand feet underground, but heck, this cavern is part of the fictional side. I'll definitely consider it. 

JJ, the bottle says LITHOCHROME CHEMSTAIN CLASSIC, which leads one to...
http://www.scofield.com/concretestain_main.html

Thanks TJ, you and me both, haha! I appreciate your interest, you were certainly a trailblazer in all this. But I've got a big decision though, whether to...

1. Keep going one this mountain's coloring & detailing, or
2. Pause on this mountain, and get the other (new) one begun and to this same stage (and do coloring / detailing on both, simultaneously)

I put the question to my smarter half, and she says I should get all this (more difficult & messy) mortar shell stuff over with. Meaning, #2. Still thinking it through though. If we go that route, I'll finish the mortar, get this (south) mountain's track and area clean, and start the armature for the north one. 

Thanks guys---

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm the craZy one....

How much more "heavy work" will your back take from your fabulous mountain building??????!!??

I'd go for a complete mountain...the one your on!! You'll give yourself some refreshing change and change the outlook of the layout...

Stand back and say well done....

If your doing detailing..the demands on Your body will be reduced...and mostly broken into time spans where you can stop for brakes as needed....not driven by the ever..got'ta keep going while the crete is wet n soft mode...never stopping..lest it get hard...

Your call...!

All the best Buddy...
D


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Build the secong mountain....when its cooler...in the Fall

Or next Spring even....

D


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## MikeMcL (Apr 25, 2013)

Dang, that's a lot of cement!  Lookin' good Cliff!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Mike! I really admire your 'crete work as well. 

You remind me to do a bag count... let's see, 83+12+4 = 99 down, with about 5 to go, 104. 

Been doing more on the cavern, and I should mention that I was inspired some years ago by Peter Jones' book, where on p39 is shown the mining-oriented cavern he had. I thought his idea, combined with the need for track access, made good sense. So anyway, here's how mine is shaping up.



















Lots of track cleaning to do, but fortunately the mortar isn't really sticking to rails or ties. Or roadbed, for that matter. (And yes, I should have covered it better, or removed it entirely). 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today was finishing the cavern shell. I didn't carve it at all, so I might lay a thin scratch layer tomorrow and brush/carve that a little bit. The reason I didn't was because of the vertical and inverted surfaces, where I could only add a little every few hours (otherwise, it would just all flop down), and I didn't want to disturb what was laid up.

In between those layers, I did the main cleanup everywhere -- with a mason's hammer, screw driver, and a shop vac. Things cleaned up pretty well, though I still need to properly clean the track rails/ties. 

More tomorrow,
===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Don't hesitate too long clean the rails. The stuff gets harder, and harder to remove with time and the lime has a detrimental effect on the brass.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Hey Cliff how you doing, been very busy I see, your mountain looks great.
How are you planning on keeping the critters from homesteading?

Ron


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Todd, will do. The nickel plating seems to shed it quite well at the moment, but point taken. 

Hey Ron, thanks for the ping. My hopeful answer to your question is mothballs. I'll give that a couple years, and see what I get bit by. Fall-back plan is spray-foam the interior. Plan C is take up stamp collecting.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Been wondering about how to clean my mixer. I've been faithfully cleaning the thing after each mixing session (1 bag), but because of the two+ times I forgot to do so, it now is internally caked somewhat. 

Here's a mixer cleaning approach, using hydrochloric acid. JJ, or anyone else, have you done this?






[edit]
Here's the pyro-psycho way to do it...





[nuther edit]
This is interesting, but as yet I have no idea where to get it or what it costs...





[bonus edit]
Well, after a little research, it appears that the Blast-Off cleaner costs half of what my mixer did, so to heck with that.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, gotta shift the subject. All that has gone before on this thread has revolved around my south mountain. However, after discussing the summer program at length with my better half, the north mountain needs to get in sync. 

Here's the picture of the area, from our bedroom window.










Been that way for a couple years, so it sounds like it's time to liven up the view. Here's the plan. 










The blue structures represent mine surface works, and a scenic mountain wall / scenic barrier is needed between the main ones shown. The second main objective is to hide the upper part of the return loop. The third objective is to allow decent planting areas.

For hidden track access, there will need to be a door / hatch as shown. It may end up being on a diagonal hinge line, like a root cellar door. Don't know yet. But it needs to be a mortar-skinned thing I think. Since it's in the middle of a themed / to-scale area, I'd like the hatch to blend.

Bottom line, this mountain will be a lot less complex, and about 1 third the size. Only one tunnel, thank you my Lord. But, the access hatch will be a big issue. 
===>Cliffy


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am on my third Mixer. No I have not cleaned my Mixers that way. After my concrete is mixed I dump it in the wheelbarrow. ( two wheeled style.) Then right away I rinse the the drum of any residue that may be in it or on it. Then I got put the mixed concrete in it's intended place.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

OK, thanks JJ. I also rinse right away -- except when I forget! 
I'm curious about the hc acid, I'll let you know if I go that route.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff why is the access hatch going to be an issue?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dennis, it needs to be big enough for me to get through comfortably, say, 2'x 3'. With the mortar on it, it will be heavy, so that's one thing. I'd like it to be a pivoting door (vs. lift-up or lift-off) for that reason. But we'll see how that geometry works out with a diagonal hillside. Have you done anything like that?


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today's efforts involved putting on & carving up a texture coat inside the cavern, fixing a few drainage issues, pressure washing the mountain (thanks again Dennis), and generally cleaning up. 

Here's the cavern:










I was really happy to see how well the pressure washer cleaned the mortar & concrete off of the wood parts and perimeter rocks.










Here's one of the drainage items, involving cleaning up and 'creting around some culverts.










Here's the back side, freshly washed.










===>Cliffy


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The Cavern looks great. The mountain is turning out fantastic.

JJ


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff very nice looking, excited to see it being colored. 
As far as the hatch, I am sure i can help you.
Dennis


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Stalag-tites n mites...such cavernaciousness....

(( try to spit it out ))

;-)


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Looking great, good progress....;-)


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

This is truly awesome!

Best,
TJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the kind words, guys, you made my day!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here is a rough model of the north mountain armature, hinting at the hatch issue. It needs to be a swing-away hillside.



















===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Sorry...your swing away will crash with the fixed hill side....

Id try a simple lift off section for access...

Create a formed cement lower lip..to hold the lid....

Now....think cookie jar lids here!!

Keep it easy...a liteweight lid..simple. easy to just lift off ..out of your way...

Now internal bracing across the opening. ...

Cad is fun...but two hills won't fit in the space of one!!

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

It's a geometry problem, one cone swinging into another. But you're getting my next problem, Dirk. 

Now that I know what this stuff weighs, I better understand what a lift-up solution would demand, strength-wise. I can lift a lot now, but I'm trying to design for what I can handle years from now. So I'm going to attempt a simple pivoting hatch, and see what happens. 

===>Cliffy


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,
I've been following your new mountain build since the beginning and have enjoyed this thread immensely. Great work.

As for your hatch access - what about modifying a commercial access door?
They come in steel, aluminum and plastic.
Maybe mounting it at an angle like a cellar door with a little lath and cement on top?

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Cliff...I think one key element will be what you have not built yet...!!

You'll need maybe even to make a master ...n a mold....
Build yourself a "thin shell rock surface" using reinforcement and just do something lite and thin skinned..not the heavy blobs used to date!!

Use say some 1/2" hardware cloth ( the metal kind ) with just a 1/4" layer on either side....

This should be strong enough for your intended and stated size. Form the wire exactly as needed to carry the shape consistant with nearby strata. .

You'll be fine....

Me....


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff why do you need a hatch so large, if it is tunnel derailments, make your track with short walls so the trains can not fall off. Then all you have to do is make it large enough to get you arm in to retrieve the cars. 
Dennis


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Perhaps an assist via a couple of gas struts? They make them for marine usage, but they are quite "spendy", maybe locate some used ones at a salvage yard.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Aw he needs it out of the way when he hauls his lap top into the second Man-cave! Concrete cool and trains!
Cliff consider a lift out foam hatch covered with a large stone casting with cement all strength...
Your buddy,
John


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## honeybooboo (Jan 10, 2014)

Dude, You guys are my Hero's 

Boo Boo


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

"EveryONE"...???

;-)


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Cliff- Looking amazing!
Here is your prototype for inspiration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_North_Mountain

http://www.summitpost.org/great-north-mountain/152445

Now to add Big Schloss to the top, eh?

http://www.summitpost.org/big-schloss/154008

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow, what a lot of neat feedback in one day, thanks friends! Tommie and HBB, I appreciate your kind words, and am sure glad if I can contribute. Thanks for those pics Jerry, great source material. Love the Big Schloss!

John, you're right -- about the cooling, not the man cave, haha! When the wind blows through the mountain's interior, the air coming out is distinctly cooler. 

Good idea HH, but if it's a tilt-up hatch, maybe there's a way to just counterbalance the thing. We'll see. I may be going that direction, but first, just for my good buddy Dirk I modeled up a demo on how the concrete would swing in the version 1 door. Well, I wanted to see how / if it would work too. 






It "works" in the model, but the complexity is puttin me off. 

Dennis, the tunnel is pretty long, about 8'. There are some wiring feeds and insulated joiners on the track, so I think at some point I'll need to dive in. True, not often. So since this pivoting thing seems like a major pita to shape properly, my next what-if will probably be the cellar-door thing with a thin mortar shell (like Tommie & Dirk suggest). 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Your right Cliff..too many fine details that need to be perfect...(perfection is always possible tho)
..to get this to work well..

I'm also been..not sleeping..ha..if the edges were very irregular..the rock crevice lines could overlap..and hide the joint...

One may never see or figure out a door is there...

The hidden lord of the ring door...just need the key..and lock..

Johns written foam idea also beat my dream..unwritten...

The lightweight foam ..shell with a rock surface..will be easy to move ..can be very irregular in size and shape....

How many track wire hook ups are in the tunnel..
How much work to daylight the wiring..before or after the portals...

Think long term solutions..not tech no magic O...

Keeping the moving lid in order could be a pita..
Moving wires won't loose track power...and you won't have to go cave diving on your belly with a flashlight...

An 8' tunnel is pretty short.

Trying to help here..!!! ;-)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Not disputing your perspective Dirk, and I do appreciate your insights. 

But.... it's "a thing" with me now. There's no extra cost, except for a pair of hinges and misc. hardware, call it $20. Even at $100, I'd consider that a bargain for ensuring full track access in the future.

So here's the "cellar door" approach. Yes, it will have a lot of the same shaping issues, but it's pretty simple. 






Weight is about 160 lbs, but about 3/4 of that is born by the hinges. So, 40 lbs to "lift" in the opening, I think that's reasonable. Need to bake in a hold-open device of some sort. 

I might crash and burn on this little side line, but I'll keep posting all the way down. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey..buddy ..

...mmmm...I sensed your "thing"..

Call it determined.....now!!

Personally I think the weight is far higher opined...than it may be in real...but

I could be wrong....I do that road ..sumtimes..

Dirk..keep having FUN!!!!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, I think my software is lying to me about the weight. Anyway, it's easily liftable for the (hopefully) rare occasions I need access, and a lot simpler that v1. So we'll see. 

I love the carpentry work, it's so easy compared to concrete, ha ha! Maybe I'm using this as an excuse to prolong the woodworking.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh Boy! I just love true confessions!
Keep 'em comin'
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Doh!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Got a start today on the north mountain armature, here's a couple pics.



















I promise this is the only other mountain to add to this thread. Well, there's the center one, but that's years away. This north one needs to be part of the package, for reasons already stated. And fortunately, it will be a lot smaller than the main / south mountain.

After this, I'll get back to color and detailing on both. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I spent all day on the hatch area. After reconsidered things, I decided to go with the simplest (though still hinged) manner I could think of, which seemed to indicate something like this.






The door will be faced on the outside with mortar shell. When down, it will be sort of a drawbridge. In front of this door will be a gardened area, so the drawbridge needs to stop its rotation at a TBD angle. So I went with 1/4" welded chain and 3/8" hooks to make it adjustable. 



















I'll have to add a bunch of exposed screws on the planked side of the door, for the mortar to bite into. I'll also have to watch the drainage, in view of the ground clearance for the lower door edge: don't want a lake there, or in the tunnel for that matter. 

Well, that's all for today. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok...I'll bite...

How much weight will lay on the open door?
The stress of weight carrying a load is "off angle" to the current installed J hooks..

Meaning ...it won't take much for them to bend...as they are not in line with a load applied to the door..
I might have considered closed loops for chain mounting..as they are stronger...but still not off angle to the direction of implied load...
Sorry bud...one thing I have done in my life....besides being a mechanic..lots of fabrication design and construction...

Youre getting there...

A deep lower lip below and behind the door for water..plus a forward draining provision for a wash....away from the door...

Will screwed on screen help attach the mortar shell to the door face...?

Luv those tall trees -- 4x4's -- that hold up the blue cloud!!

All I have today is blue sky...hot blue sky!!

;-)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Dirk.

Well, that's why I got 3/8" wire hooks Brother. They feel & look fine with me walking on the drawbridge. The two 1/4" chains are good for 1,300 lb each, and the hooks should be OK for at least 200 each, say 2/3 that at a 45 degree angle. Load-rated (welded or forged) screw eyes & links are expensive, but I'll pay for them if I later see a need emerging. Or, I might just bolt the lowest links against the door stringers. We'll see.

Yeah, it was tough keeping some shade overhead today, what with the planet rotating and all. I had to make do with ladders and etc., as you've seen. Steamy here!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

The armature is about done now.



















Next comes a bit of mesh.

C


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Looking great Cliff...
Bet your glad to get some [email protected] work..hehe..

Will you add screen next weekend..or start in the evenings...

You can start bringing mud home after work every other day....stock up again!!

I need to get in some stock up time .....hard in the heat currently. 

I'll put up some posts. .... .if you'll come add screen!

Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Dirk, yeah I agree, the trip home from work is a great time to stock up. Today was more mesh and misc. hardware (I need to put a shade tarp up), and tomorrow & wed. will be mortar humping. 

And yes, my nice cool office was very pleasant... 

I saw this morning that Lowe's has another half-price sale on mesh until 8/9, but only in my local store. Odd, but wonderful timing!

I'm angling to get thu and fri off (vacation days), we'll see. That'll give me a day to make the shade and concrete the posts, a couple days to put up mesh, and 1 day to start the mortar. The first mountain shell took me 6 weekends I think, but I'd like to get this shell done over the next couple weekends. But, you know how that goes, ha ha!

Cliff


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Cliffy, No fair, you are having way too much fun here. I'm still moving lots of dirt......;-)

Bill


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya Bill....your not the only one still moving lots a dirt!!

It runs in this hobby...the great outdoors...sweat..
..fresh hot air..tho damp at the momment!!

Take a break...get a chilled glass of your fav...ponder some like JJ...and get back to work ol buddy..

Ya got a train to build!!!

OK...that's this weeks pep talk!! Go for it...

Looking great Cliff..keep going..use lites ..work at nite buddy!!
Dirk


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Bill,

Yeah, finally getting to some fun stuff! I started in 2008 with excavation, so it's been a long haul, haha! But, I work at a much slower speed than most, so I only have myself to blame for the duration. 

Speaking of fun though, for me, shade management has become the difference between enjoyable work and a hot slog where all ya wanna do is head indoors. So I'm trying to prepare better, equipment-wise. And maybe I need to change my work patterns, like do as Dirk suggests and take a siesta in between work sessions. Well, that probably won't happen, but I'm admitting it would be smart.

Speaking of true confessions, TW John is back on line, so John, I hope you had a great trip, and welcome back.

And Bill -- I still have to move a LOT more gravel & dirt ... I'm guessing 1 10T truckload of gravel and 2 of topsoil. For this level/phase of the layout. All have to be dumped in the front yard, and gradually wheel-barrowed around and down to the layout, and shoveled into place without messing up the track. Woo-hoo! So I'm right there with you Brother!! 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Today was a prep day. Mainly... putting up a shade tarp, woo hoo!










Did the concreting of the post bases, which starts the bag count for this mountain at 5.

For pushing up the the shade tarp, I put in some eyelets to hold a couple of 10' long 1" EMT tubes. The mountain will therefore have a couple of holes. At the top of the tubes are boards to distribute the stress on the tarp.










Tomorrow (and maybe the next day) will be the mesh. Today, I pre-wrinkled some sheets by putting rocks and boards under the pile, and bashing down with a 4x4. Not exactly elegant! But it helps. While putting the mesh up, I also crease / wad / punch / pull the mesh on the fly. 











===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Love it! Looking good nephew.
Make the pipe holes into defunct volcanoes, little cones and glowing red depths.... ooh ooh neato!
Yer bud,
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Heck place darn dilthy little black growing ooooooozing firwork thingies fown the holes. .. n throw a match!!! Dont forget the sparklers...

Oooh..aaah!!

He..he..hehe. ummmm ha
..oh ya ..mostly ferget...its raining ...gain...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Just thunder and virgas down here....

Cliff, the poles do come out don't they?

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Guess my virgas were just flying below the clouds ...eh!!

;-)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thought provoking ...

Do the poles need to come out....have they been in a closet!?

:-D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha guys! 

Yeah, the poles just slide out. They're just for propping up a tarp. I should have put some holes & eyes in the south mountain, but I didn't think about it.

Well, it's mesh day, I'll post some pics later.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Up n at'em..eh Cliff....
Early worm..
Get's ta make a mountain!!
....mesh on ...!!!

...keep your fingers ta yourself. .no cuts...


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## Wesley Furman (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff,
Here is a fresh idea, maybe you need more small holes. Then you could use a Harbor Freight Bore Scope http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=bore+scope to inspect the interior and see how bad the derailment was, how big is the wasp nest, or where the neighbors lost cat is hiding.
Just an idea.
Wesley


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very neat idea Wesley, I may put it at the top of my Christmas list!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Got through about 2/3 of the mesh today, here's how it looks.










The downhill end (on the right) took some extra time, to make some "foundations" (just concrete blocks) for steps around that end, and increase the height of the rock wall some. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Man...I can't believe all the trees and privacy you have..

I'd go nuts...not happy if I can't see 50 miles!! Ya...or birds flying...

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Like I've always said Dirk, we live in a jungle here. See plenty of birds and other critters though.

I finished with the mesh today, which mainly involved the hatch area. The brown screws are protruding deck screws to give the mortar something to bite onto.










===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The North Mountain...got a name for it?

Ooooo - aaahh!!

Miniature mountain climbing club could have a field day on your creations!!

Wet n windy here...thunder 2!!

Looks great..mud ready @ this point!!?

DMS Ry. - ;-)


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff where are you wanting the hatch?
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Dirk -- 

Dennis, that whole planked thing is the hatch. Here's a shot from this morning.










Today's main thing was getting a start on the mortar. I started with the tunnel and hatch areas, to get it over with. I'll have to go back into the tunnel later to build the mortar up the wall, but I need to finish the hatch first. This is because to get into the tunnel, I need to open the hatch -- which I can't until the hatch skin is done.










There is a definite risk of the mortar falling off the hatch when it swings down. Hence all the screw heads to help it bite. This was one of the reasons I wanted to use a vertical hinge. But, this is all for fun, so I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Well, actually I did, but I'm not gonna any more. Hopefully.

Worst case: If the mortar doesn't hang onto the hatch, the mortar gets hammered off and the hatch gets pressure-washed and stained. Which is what my wife prefers. But, I'm determined to see if this method will work, because... well, just because. 

===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

oh the cement will stick to it with no problem
Dennis


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliff use some wax paper where the crete meets.
John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I think I should call You the " Mud Man"...

You track any ..indoors...yet!!

Wipe Your feet off Cliff....

No name big mountain 2..

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, that's great to hear!! 

Dirk, yeah, it's messy. I hose off my boots, and inside there's a 12' long scrap of slavaged carpet for a nice long door mat. If I'm really messy, I just stay outside more... I've got a favorite peeing tree... 

Nice idea John, I'll try that. I'm first completely mudding over the joint for a consistent contour. When it has set up some I pushed in a putty knife. Could do the same, but fold the wax paper in half and knife it into the joint (for a very thin gap). I like it!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This morning was pretty rainy, but I managed to get in another 10 bags around the base. The step area around the end was fun.










The steps are just for future maintenance convenience. I'll have to make a nice rock outcropping though, something to grab hold of (it's a good 4' drop, and the "steps" are very uneven). 










It might be a couple weeks till I can get to this again, but I'm thankful to get this far over the weekend. 

Thanks for viewing,

=-==>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks fer posting ....

Just relaxing..working on some sherbet...!!
...its cool!!!


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

looking good


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

It is looking great Cliffy. Just remember The ground will catch you if your fall. Been there, Done that, Got the T shirt.


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

That looks great, thanks for posting. Makes me want to find a place for a mountian a try this.
Steve


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

What with foot rocks..hand holding out croppings..

Add a bolt...when ya do maintenance....tie into the bolt with a climbing harness n rope...

Gives you a soft landing!! Youll have your very own private climbing boulder! ! How Cool!!!

.....I'll be over...rock climbing n trains..together

GeeeeeZ!!!


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

>something to grab hold of (it's a good 4' drop

Take care. I took a spill in my front yard taking some measurements and broke my elbow. That was 4 months ago and I'm still doing physical therapy every day to try to get full use of my arm back.

Best,
TJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the kind words guys! 

Steve, thanks, and I think you'd find it makes a dramatic difference. To do some quick what-if "modeling", you could take cardboard boxes, lawn chairs, old blankets, tarps whatever, and go to town. When you're ready, give Dennis a shout, he's got a ton of great pointers. 

TJ -- wow, that's tough, sorry to hear about that. I sure hope the healing goes quickly. But thanks to you and John for the warning. Maybe I should take Dirk seriously and get a harness! Actually, I've got a couple spare carabiners... I'm joking, but only half-way. When the 'crete is done, and the pole is pulled out, I'll see how rough it is to negotiate those end steps. May have to paint the pole and leave it in! 

Thanks again guys. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This weekend became unexpectedly freed up, so that meant more mortar. 

Just to update the bag score, it was 20 laid this weekend, 26 before. So 46 (150 with the south mountain added in) with at least 8 more needed. 

===>Cliffy


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> This weekend became unexpectedly freed up, so that meant more mortar.
> 
> Just to update the bag score, it was 20 laid this weekend, 26 before. So 46 (150 with the south mountain added in) with at least 8 more needed.
> 
> ===>Cliffy


 
Makes my back hurt just reading about it!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Todd, thanks for feelin' my pain, ha ha! 

I just took a couple more pics.



















Kinda kicking myself for that hatch hinge design. I could've tweaked it to avoid those voids beneath the hinges. Oh well, they'll either be hidden by plants, or get sprayed black and pretend to be adits (tunnels).

TW John, I haven't done the wax paper trick yet. But will do so when the final edges are done up. 

Next weekend, I'll have a couple extra days to blow, so hopefully (after the mortar here) that will permit some rockwork and/or color experiments.


===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't start slow'n down yet Cliffy....

I brought home a huge haul of rocks this afternoon..
..a bit different..these are destined for the culvert block wall..in the wash!!
Found a very large pile...just what I wanted...think I'll bring home the whole pile!!!

Time to rest the weary backs now....

Dirk


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

Cliffy,

I feel your pain. While you are setting mud, I am moving dirt. Another six tons moved in the last two weeks......Change is coming slowly but steady.

Bill


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Don't fret if yew ferget, I have a ton of tricks still in the bag....

Tall grasses that bend easily will cover your sink hole jest fine.

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nuther good idee, John. Bendable plants... what WILL they come up with next?! 

Dirk & Bill, sounds like we're all hittin' the Advil hard these days, ha ha! But I'm not slowing down yet Dirk, gotta put up another 8-10 bags on Thursday, then cleanup on Friday. Then... hopefully... some easier stuff! 

But, like Bill, I've got lots of dirt to move still, need a couple truckloads of topsoil. But I'm enjoying my denial for now.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yea. Pain pills fer the back!!
One load of rock was not enough..
It rain lots ..two nites in a row..
Went fer nuther load of rock yesterday..
Larger than first load even...more rocks!
But not unloaded till today..
....must be slow'n down ..ur sumthin...
Or. Over worked the unloading system!!
..been preety pooped since. Tired...no energy...but I got lots of rocks..

Made a great conclusion yesterday. .
Silver will run out...
..Gold will eventually run out....
Aahh, but we'll never run out ta rocks!!

Happy collecting All!!!!!!!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

All of July brought 2" of rain ..was nice...not overwhelmingly so....could have used more!

Last 4 days ..now August..had 2" of rain....
Ground is now saturated..holding all water on the surface...
So...seems "Officially" ... layout is now off limits...shut down...till..

Stay dry all...enjoy summer!! Don't forget your umbrella!

Dirk


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Predicted about one inch in MD today we got 4 with areas up to 10 inches. Floods everywhere. Layout soggy but OK, good thing Cliff is on a hill!. Won't need to water for a while....

Jerry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

So Jerry, what is your yearly rainfall?

Locally we run 10" - 12" ...a year..
..with last year reaching.....8" total

So 4" in two months is 1/3 - 1/2 of all we will get....

I live on the flank of a ridge..yet there are many places for water to pool..overflow and run downhill...

Dirk


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

More then you ever wanted to know about MD including weather:

http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/weather.html

Average is about 41 inches a year. 

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

A lot of what falls in that 10"-12" falls several times as the Monsoon machine evaporates much of what falls and sends it down again. Which is good because as Dirk has explained water doesn't sink in very far, the rest runs off.... We need two or 3 shots at it to get some into reservoirs... 
John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I heard this morning that we got 6" yesterday (in the Baltimore area). 

Should be nice the rest of the week, woo hoo!


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## rntfrmme (May 23, 2013)

*Weather*

Here in Vegas we have had around 3/10 of an inch or so the last week depending where you live in the valley. Rain is very localized here. Enough to hold the dust down until the sun comes out....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I put down another 8 bags today, I thought surely that'd be it. But, I ran out. So, 5 or 6 more tomorrow. Can't complain though, the weather was spectacular. Low 80's, low humidity, in August, in MD... seems really rare to me. This morning was actually chilly, 58, when it usually starts out in the seventies. 

Anyway, I'll finish off tomorrow, and post some pics. 

Next, I need to take care of a few other issues, like extending a certain spur's roadbed, finishing off the hatch edges, and finishing off the tunnel portals. Then, vacuuming and pressure washing. Then, playing with rock outcroppings, that'll be fun.

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Final mortar day, woo hoo! Gorgeous weather, another rogue spring day in August.

Final bag score: 46 (prior) + 8 (yesterday) + 7 (today): 61. With the south mountain, 165. 

Besides the last mortar, today involved a number of smaller & related tasks. 

Finishing the hatch upper edge...










Enlarging the steps around the end...










Finishing off a couple culverts and experimenting with foil "rockwork"...










And extending a spur that was just too short for a switchback. 










About that hatch. I used TW John's wax paper idea, and it worked great. I might improve the hatch sides some day, but for now I wanted the top edge to blend in. And I think it did fairly well.










Here's the thing cracked open. There is a gap in the middle to get my hand in, to pull the thing open.










Now, my mistake was not having some heavy-duty handles on the inside of the hatch planking, to grab onto while lowering. Because that sucker is HEAVY, say 80 lbs. So when I started to lower, I grabbed the edge... which, of course, crumbled off, because it wasn't fully cured. 










No huge worries though, I put up more wax paper and re-did the broken bits. But, tomorrow, a handle or two will be added. 

Thanks for tuning in,

===>Cliffy


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow Cliff looking super, I dont quite have your energy.
You hatch has come out really good
Thanks for sharing all of your progress
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, I appreciate it.Just following your lead though, so thanks again for all your help!

Today was cleanup. Vacuuming the debris, pressure washing, tool cleanup, lawn mowing, shop cleanup, etc. Wanted a fresh start for the next chapter.

Here's the view from our bedroom winder:


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffs,
I think your hatch came out great! I really really like your mountains.

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm starting to switch to the color subject. 

Pete D. graciously sent me a sample (thanks again Pete!), so I'll experiment with that. Not sure about price or how much I need, but I found a distributor about 15 mins from my work. 

More locally, at Home Depot, there's Eagle acid, in a variety of colors. Pretty expensive though. Valspar also has an acid-etch product, but I don't see it listed on Lowes' site (I suppose one can special-order). 

Lowes does have a Valspar stain (vs. acid) which, being water-based, allows thinning I suppose (which I find attractive). It's my understanding that the acid reacts with the lime, which you have to "arrest" at some point; and the result is a neat marbled appearance.

Dennis, what was the product you found, and were to able to test it out? And what were using before?

Thanks guys---

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

tmejia said:


> Cliffs,
> I think your hatch came out great! I really really like your mountains.
> 
> Tommy
> Rio Gracie


Thanks Tommy, that's kind of you! 

Today I'll get a handle or two on the hatch, and post a pic.


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Cliffy,
I have been following this thread from the beginning. You have done a great job on the cement work both on the scenery and roadbed. Lots of inspiration and ideas here. please keep on posting.

Chuck


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

That means a lot Chuck, thanks, and will do!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's the hatch, with fold-down handles and a coat of semi-transparent deck stain / sealer.










I also got a can of concrete "stain" of a similar tan color, but after a test I'm having some regrets on that choice of product / color. Too much like paint. More later on that subject. Main thing is that these shells are done, and that was my big goal for this season.

Thanks everyone for your viewing and encouragement,

===>Cliffy


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm glad I found your thread as I'm planning on similar project this late fall/winter. Way too hot here in central Texas right now. I'm thinking about using a brown powder color mix when mixing the mortar. That way I already have a dirt color background that is through out in the event of future chipping, cracking, etc. Have you had any cracking at the cold joint where you had one batch dry and then come back later for next section? I found areas at our mountain cabin in southern NM where I can get smaller shards, etc of actual rock. I was considering embedding that to get more realism but not sure if that becomes a lot more work. I read where someone mentioned it but I guess you decided not to go that route. As for critters, you better look careful at that hatch area before crawling in. Here in Texas, it would be a perfect place for rattlers to get, cool and dark. Just waiting for you to reach in. Have enjoyed the progress. Now get back to work as you need to finish your apprenticeship before coming here to do my mountain. ;-)


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Mickey, I'm glad you've found it helpful, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do!

I think that's a great idea, mixing the powder in. I suppose you know about those pigments you can get. 

Haven't had any cracking at the joints. Before adding a new layer, I hose the old one down, and squish on a thin layer of fresh mortar where the overlap will be, working it in a little. 

Everyone's been very positive about embedding real rock; the only reason I've not done it is because I've been laying up a lot of square footage in a short time for the basic shell, and didn't want to have to think about much else. I'd like to go back and put some real rock in, and/or castings. If you have the inkling though to do embed as you go, by all means do. That's how Dennis (Denray) does it, and it looks great.

We don't have rattlers here, just garden-type snakes. They love my retaining wall... and they'll love the new cave...


===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Once an apprentice....

Now a master....

Teach us O'master...mud on...mud off!!

;-)


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Tell us O'Mickey...
..where in southern N.M. do you go for rock shards?

You could be approaching the magnetically drawn into a layout region, for my home road!!
N.M. is very close by....you can not refuse the effects of layout drawn into*itis....it is a spell that will come over you once you reach N.M......

Dirk


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Dirk, your funny. But plumb crazy. I've been following (or stalking as my daughter says) your build and just watching all those dirt piles and trenches makes my back hurt. Not to mention the miles and miles of track yet to be laid. Just plain crazy in the head. Been in the sun too much I spect. ;-). But seriously next time I get AZ way I may just give you a call and drink one of your beers whilst I asking your empire.

As for where the cabin is, it's Ruidoso, NM in the Sacramento Mountains. This old trestle is in the area too. From and old logging and tourist line from El Paso. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ace_mcspeed/872903615/ We grew up in El Paso so its our old stomping and skiing ground. There are plenty of thick and thin slices of reds, yellows, blacks and browns just waitin to pickup. Week ago we were there hiking the ski area and I found perfect scale stuff everywhere. Next trip I've gotta take some buckets and start collecting.

Cliffs, can you point me to some pics of his method of using real rocks?


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,
It looks wonderful! Really amazing. You are truly "King" of the mountain!
Best,
TJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Mickey,

Perhaps Dennis can post or email you a link to his photo page (I seem to have lost it Dennis, dang!)

Here's some other articles though that you might find inspirational..

Ray's a real master at the rock blending:
http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/IRR_Cliffs_2010.html#5

Some others:
http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/rocks_n_cliffs/rocks_n_cliffs.htm
http://www.mysticmountainarts.com/MMRR/Construction.html

Here's TJ's famous article (just saw your post TJ, thanks! You're too kind, Brutha!)
http://www.mylargescale.com/Feature...12/Making-Mole-Hills-Look-Like-Mountains.aspx

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

SD90WLMT said:


> Once an apprentice....
> 
> Now a master....
> 
> ...


Ha ha Dirk! Hey, I'm waiting for your turn. With your scale of doing things, you'll be the Fastest Mudslinger in the West!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Why does the scale of my layout..imply I might be fastest in the west...

Cowboy lingo. ...

The place is giant..I may just be slow!!

... ;-) ..


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

SD90WLMT said:


> Why does the scale of my layout..imply I might be fastest in the west...
> 
> Cowboy lingo. ...
> 
> ...


Because if you do concrete mountains, you'll want 'em to be big enough to be noticeable. That means a lot of mud!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Boy......it'll be a "Lot" of a lot of work...n mud...n they'll be huge...

Better come...bring your new apprentises....college level course in " Creative Cement Mountainering"...& basic construction skills 101, Advanced class!! 
Students to provide own materials, i.e.....lots of cement...

Thank you


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

You said it, Dirk!

Back to the color issue. I went to Lowes to see if they could darken the concrete "stain" I bought last week. Thanks to the Valspar rep that was there, it turns out they used the wrong base for what I'd asked for, it should have been semi-transparent, so they actually took it back, woo hoo! (that almost never happens with mixed paint...)

The rep said with the semi-trans, you can use hand spray bottles, and more than one color to really mottle it. So I got 3 cheap 1-gal weed sprayers and 3 different colors. I'll try it full strength at first, but will thin it down if need be. 

So, that's the next line of activity, hopefully this Saturday. 

===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm afraid things didn't go so hot with the staining this weekend, but here's the story anyway.

I started with Valspar semi-transparent concrete stain, in 3 colors.










And cheap 1-gal garden sprayers:










In a test session Saturday, multiple problems became evident, including control of the sprayer shut-off and pattern. Also, the red seemed way too red. 

Today's plan then was to give everything a base coat, using the stain diluted with water 50/50. In one sprayer was tan only, and the other tan/dark brown in equal measure.

I sprayed the entire mountain with the tan, then randomly hit it with the tan/DB mix. Lastly, I took a spray bottle of 50/50 dark brown and went around dribbling it down major fissures. 

Here's a before/after example.



















Here's an after shot of the north mountain.










The use of two colors is barely noticeable, as is the fissure highlighting. So additional colors will need to be more dramatic, e.g., less diluted perhaps.

The concrete really varied in how it took the stain. Smooth vs. brushed, Quikrete vs Sakrete, and other factors that I simply can't explain.

Having said all that, I'm glad to have this base coat on, and that I diluted everything. So there's opportunity for additional color correction. 

Thanks for viewing,
===>Cliffy


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Did you ever try the acid stains that interact chemically with the concrete? In looking at our patio that they did that way, it looks like it would work and gives you a variation so not just solid.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Raw exposed concrete will suck a great deal of what you spray on...

It may be you need to apply your thin coatings ...very wet...
But...let dry well..before any more color applications follow....

Open thoughts...
I see some of this for me...coming soon!
Random ponderings....
So far your fine Cliff !!

D


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

I've used this before to color concrete. Typically it goes in the mix but you can dilute it and use it in a spray bottle to highlight the shadows. I've also used rattle cans after the fact and they last for years.

http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/CementColor.asp


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good thoughts guys.

Mickey, the problem with the acids is that the People's Republic of Maryland won't allow their sale here. The Valspar rep confirmed this. So no joy there. Sorry Pete, I really appreciate your sample, but no joy along those lines. 

You're absolutely right Dirk. Not only that, but the texture of the crete also affects the up-sucking.

Todd, I've seen them advertised, but didn't know they could be applied after the fact. So maybe I'll give them a whirl. At least for the highlights. 

Thanks guys, keep 'm comin'...

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Exactly Cliff....

A sealed surface...smooth...
A rough sanded surface....

....the surfaced is exposed to varying degrees of tension...

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I put on more stain today, trying to highlight things some. First was a light spray of red/brown/water, then brown/water, but from a different direction. On both mountains. 

I used hand spray bottles for this, because the pump sprayers didn't have the finer control.

Still, that wasn't seeming to be contrasting enough, So I used 100% dark brown stain on the vertical creases and some undercut horizontal faces. In the other hand, I hand a spray bottle of water to help blend the edges and splatters and drips. 




























Just a couple things to pass on. It's really nice to be able to water the stain down and so easily mix and blend and cleanup.

However, concrete looks dark when it's wet, and this stain is, well, wet. So you really don't know how it's gonna look until it dries out. In the above pic, a few vertical darker seams now look like stripes. They didn't look that way when I sprayed them earlier (but it's easy to go back over them later). Even the scenes in the above pics will probably lighten up some, over the next day or two. 

Also, being in shadow or not sure affects things. I opted for the shade tarp, and tried to keep my eyes adjusted to that lighting level. Even the color of the shade tarp affects things: see the redder color in the north mountain? The color of the south mountain is identical, but the shade tarp is silver (vs. blue). Clearly, a connoisseur of mountain staining might go for all-natural lighting while applying the stain 

In summary, this color / gradient roughly matches that in the photos I've collected for the Virginia City area mountains for a base color scheme. I say it's maybe ok, my wife says it's pretty, and my mother-in-law says it's "fantastic". So I think I need to move on.

There are many opportunities for outcroppings and (sparse) foliage though, so that's the next thing.

I received my bundles of miniature plastic pine trees from China, which I ordered on a fluke... and well, now that I see them, I'm not sure if I'll use them. But, I have this notion of putting Scotch-brite through a blender (or yarn carder, but my wife'll kill me!), and I have a crate of (cheap) knock-off product coming... Well, at least the latter will be useful around the house. I doubt though that much cleaning will be accomplished using the miniature pine trees. 

More later...

===>Cliffy


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

It's coming along nicely...
You had better test adding more crete where it's stained, if that's still in your plans. The adding rocks part....
I can only take credit for remembering the wax paper trick, I used my own way back machine, that folder of esoteric necessities. 
John


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Try a small section of a real weak solution of black in squirt bottle it will all go to
The low areas and darken them. You may squirt 2-3 times to get a darker 
Effects. Look at the washes they are usually always darker. Makes great shadow
Effects too
Dennis


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Oh Cliff, really looking great too.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

John, I agree, the jury's still out on how new mortar will take to the stained stuff; Dirk has asked me the same question. I'm not yet into that experiment, but might do tomorrow. That wax paper trick DID work, good on you for that.

Thanks Dennis, yes, that's what it seems to be asking for, something much darker. But variable, like you say. What do you use? India ink? Stain? Paint? Also, do you use anything special in a squirt bottle? I got some decent ones, but they still splatter a bit with the stain.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I think you'll get a rough surface mechanical bond sufferable to a freeze thaw cycle, water in, crete out.... Wouldn't matter too much to Dirk and me...it's a dry freeze.

John (I couldn't stain under a blue tarp)


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cliffy add a drop of detergent to the water to make it wet, prevents beading by weakening surface tension. Standard formula was a couple drops per gallon,then add to stain.
Indoors ink, out doors paint. 

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

The reverse co-efficient of surface tension moleculitiousness..

Drops are more easily disspersed.. .or immersed....in sumtin.. wet

A surface dispersent-tation-A-tor!

My tongue Is twisted here guys...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I needed help...

Any body got a un-tung-twis-ter...?


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Happy for ya Cliff....

Ya n Marty worked on yerr layouts...

I mustly jest watered in thar heat today....no rain...up in them 90's gain!!!

Alans puddles 'll be dry n cracked by now...I figur!


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Might be testing that th....ar. "cement bonder" milky stuff fer gluing on sum mur murtar....a thems "Cliff hangers".


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Pictures 2 and 3 look great. I do like that cavern 

JJ


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff
You can see I create my creavices dark, mostly with a paint brush, with a thin
wash of black acrylic paint. Just in general it darkens it all and more in the low places because it flows there, I brush the creavices even more to get darker.
I also dry brush white paint on the the very top areas last.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the photo & info Dennis. It sure looks great, and the white is a neat touch. A brush gives you great control, and that's what's been lacking here.

Acrylics can be had by the pint, so that's good news. I've got a gallon of that red concrete stain that will be sitting there a while... Speaking of which, I should have used a pint (or less) of acrylic red as a tint for the stain, since it's all water-based. Hmmm.

More later,
Cliff


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Cliffy, I like your mother-in-laws response.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

mickey said:


> Cliffy, I like your mother-in-laws response.


Thanks for noting that detail Mikey. It was a real shock to me, let me tell ya.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Which works better, the metal lath used by the stucco people if the hardware cloth and why?


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

metal lath because the holes are smaller preventing cement from falling through
Using lath screws will allow you to fasten without washers.
Dennis


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I concur with Dennis. Also, it's easily formable, yet strong (it has to hold up the mortar as it sets).


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff,
Are you planning on having fake evergreen trees (guessing based on your comment about the stuff from China). I've had success making evergreen trees in HO and N scale using modified method of bamboo skewers, and floor cleaning pads. Cut up and glued to the skewers and dipped with ground foam they make good looking trees in mass quantity. I'm not sure if the floor cleaning pads would hold up outdoors, but it might be worth trying? Substitute cedar rods for bamboo skewers.

Here's an image of the floor pads I'm talking about. They come in green as well as different colors.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Craig, great minds think alike! Yes indeedy. Here's what I ordered, very similar:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001KPS4W0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I was thinking of shredding that and Gorrilla-gluing the bits to a larger mesh, and here's what I got for that:

http://www.amazon.com/Flanders-PrecisionAire-40655-012436-NaturalAire-Natural/dp/B008LR8EKM

While looking for that link, I spotted this technique which might be adaptable for outdoors, not sure:

https://www.sierrawestscalemodels.com/vanforum/discussion/164/furnace-filter-trees./p1

Mainly I need sparse shrubs (manzanita) here and there. I'll probably put in some tapcon screws and use green tomato wire to tie on some bundles of greenery. Might not survive the winter well, or even leaf blowing, so it needs to be easily / cheaply replaced. We'll see.

Thanks,
===>Cliffy


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

After discussing the overall program with by better half yesterday, it's clear that I need to shift gears a little bit. I was going to keep messing around with mountain detailing (and still intend to, here and there). But in order for her gardening part to start next year, I need to wrap up the major concrete elements. 

So, today I made the form for the first of the mine surface works. Here it is, roughly placed.










Needs to be blocked up, leveled, and have rocks / gravel tucked around the perimeter. And conduit added, and mortar or concrete poured. The result will hopefully be something like this:










Thanks for viewing,
===>Cliffy

[edit, after talking with Dirk:] The mortar will go all the way down to soil / gravel, not suspend in space like the above model indicates. Thanks Dirk.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff,
It comes in all sorts of colors (which I think relate to the grain/roughness?), I used the black stuff for my trees. Be warned it will dull scissors really fast so don't use your nice shears to cut the stuff. And wear gloves. After a few trees I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. I learned this technique from a fellow rail who made trees while sitting in the sidings waiting for other trains, and in the hotel room. He figured he made well over 2000 trees already (this was 4-5 years ago now) for his HO layout a would be making a few thousand more! The trees just get sucked up in the scenery!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Have a stick handy, after you pour the concrete into the form, use your stick to tamp the crete in place. Move it all around in your form, working corners and where it didn't want to flow. Up and down, jiggle the mix. Agitating the concrete will help it liquify and become a solid pour. The lower sides of your roadbed would be smooth with proper tamping. Bump the bottom of your form, lift and repeat rapidly. Learn to work the mix, it's working you.
Good Ol' Dirk.

John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Craig, good tips. Have you tried this stuff outdoors ever? Did the color hold up?

Thanks for the reminders John. I've yet to get the hang of the liquifying, to make the top more screedable. So yeah, will do. I have several more of these foundations to do, so hopefully I'll get the hang of it (soon).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nuther thang Uncle John, 
Which would you use here, crete or mortar? An teither way, to save material when the ground drops away in some spots, it's ok if'n I chuck some small rocks in the mix and shove 'em down good, right?

CJ


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes to the rocks, just don't make the layers too thin around them, when I use rebar, I set it up on rocks. I'd use crete out of habit, don't have much mortar advice. Simplest decision maker is price. There won't be any stress on the pad, it just sits there.
Too bad, that technique really makes it all easier to finish.
Hope that helps 
Unca John


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John. Reminds me, for a small pad like this, is heavy galvanized hardware cloth ok for reinforcement? I have a lot of spare fencing mesh (maybe 1.5x3.0 inches), be nice to use that. Or does the galvanized finish mess with the concrete over time?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Why bother, I see this pour more like a sidewalk than your roadbed.
I tried hardware cloth in my arches, it kept the pieces together after the part cracked but it didn't add much strength. Old nails and screws are better in my case.

Lesson in rebar; normally the rebar never rusts because it is fully enclosed when I set it on rocks. Using wire or metal to support it, leaves a path for rust to follow. When steel oxidizes it gets bigger and that cracks the crete... 
John


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

To stop spalling (rusty rebar splitting the 'crete) we specify minimum distances of 3" to ground & 2" top and side cover. Models don't usu. reach these proportions so spalling is almost guaranteed.

Cliff, pads that size doesn't need any but if it feels gd (or is fun..).. 

Cheers
Neil


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I've understood about the spalling issues (all my roadbed is concrete w/ rebar), but wasn't sure about reinforcing a thin pad. The mesh I was considering would be submerged in the middle of the pad (with at least an inch of crete surrounding). But it sounds like maybe the risks outweigh the minimal benefits. So thanks for your advice guys.

Dirk agrees with you (he emailed me his thoughts), and mentioned that I should isolate the pad from the roadbed. That way, if frost moves the pad, it won't mess with the roadbed. So maybe some cardboard at that joint, and just let it decompose.

Cliff


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## NormG (Jan 2, 2008)

CliffyJ said:


> I've understood about the spalling issues (all my roadbed is concrete w/ rebar), but wasn't sure about reinforcing a thin pad. The mesh I was considering would be submerged in the middle of the pad (with at least an inch of crete surrounding). But it sounds like maybe the risks outweigh the minimal benefits. So thanks for your advice guys.
> 
> Dirk agrees with you (he emailed me his thoughts), and mentioned that I should isolate the pad from the roadbed. That way, if frost moves the pad, it won't mess with the roadbed. So maybe some cardboard at that joint, and just let it decompose.
> 
> Cliff


Cliff
In the Frozen North (Canada) where a lot of road salt is used, epoxy coated re-bar is used to drastically reduce spalling and rust. Most road and Bridge restoration is making use of this.

It has to be handled carefully as it is brittle, but at cut ends and where spalled can be hand coated from a can.

Perhaps another consideration???


Norm G


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Maybe so Norm, but the other guys seem to be saying that the pad's too small to bother with reinforcing. Thanks though.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff,
To answer your question, no I have not tried any of my smaller scale trees outside. From the looks and feels of the base material I would think it would be water proof. I'm not sure how UV stable it would be long term. Just build a couple of trees and see what happens! The smaller scale uses ground foam to bulk up the 'branches', but I'm not sure what you could use that would work outdoors.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's a video of a couple locos running through my south mountain.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

WOW Cliffy that is Fantastic. I like the Cavern inside the Mountain. Your Mountain really turned out great. I had not idea that is what you were going to do when I first say you start the layout. I am looking forward to the other mountain.

Keep us posted.

JJ


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

It has turned out great. Congratulations!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks JJ & John, I sure appreciate your kind words, and I'm glad you like it!


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy,

That is the most awesome mountain!

Best,
TJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

So glad you like it TJ, means a lot coming from you!


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

Excellent job! Been fun following your progress.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Cliff looks great, anxious to see it finished and see some videos shot at track level
Great job
Dennis


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

I had the fun experience of visiting Cliff last weekend on my way back from a nearby steamup. This layout is fascinating, complex, and creative. I am not a DCC guy, but seeing the loco auto throw switches, etc was very cool. And the concrete, that road bed will outlast us all by a generation! Mountains are great, imposing yet not overpowering, in scale with the intentions of modeling the V&T. I can't wait to bring a few battery powered locos over there to interact with this developing work of art

Jerry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow ...Jerry....very nice report!!

Glad ya got a visit in at Cliffs...
..sounds even better than it looks!!

Thanks .....


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks a lot guys, I don't quite know what to say but, thanks! 

Jerry's visit was the first time a fellow GRR person has seen the thing, so it meant a lot, along with your generous words Jer. 

Dennis, yeah, I'd love to get a track-level video... Jerry has a Go Pro, hmm... Would also love to design / build an RC pan-tilt Go Pro mount... Something to ponder. 

Wish you could all come over and have one or two on me!

Cliff


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Ok Cliff what is the controlling height above the rail head of your tunnels? I have a go pro mount I made for a gondola that should do the trick. 

Jerry


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I planned on 12", but I think some spots go down to 11.5" (haven't checked). What's your min?


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Mine is 9 inches done a few years ago, after I got rid of the Aristo covered bridge (too short!) but before I realized a few more inches would have been better. But my tunnel is not likely to be redone any time soon. Your Eleven + is much better...


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, maybe you could help me out with a "shoot" after you get back from your trip up north? I'll have your replacement pilots by then...

Are you taking your GoPro to Dennis's? Or maybe he has one already, bet he does.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Yesterday was our first open house for our neighbors, lotsa fun. A little chilly, but not too much. It was windy all day, raining leaves constantly, but it still worked out ok. The kids really liked the trains, and the adults liked watching the kids watching the trains. 




























I was sort of like the anxious parent (of the train), with my thumb over the e-stop button in case something went south. But, the loco (an LGB mogul) ran great for over 2 hours, no real problems. I tried to bring on a second loco, but my DCC operator skills aren't that hot yet (almost had 2 head-on's before I gave that up, ha ha!). 

Cliff


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Very cool Cliff! The start of many fun times in you new operating layout

Jerry


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well...Cliffs .... it's fun for the kids...

....'cause the mountains are bigger than they are....!!

Way Kooll buddy!!!....and ya got a fire to be close ta!!

Do it again when it turns white!!! Bring on the plow service. ...

D


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys!!


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