# WOWSound with CONVRTR-60X range issue



## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm getting 10 feet or less range. The decoder emits a low squeal, than applies the brakes and stops the engine. I have programmed it for prototypical operation. The CONVRTR has the external antenna and is mounted inside a USAT S4 as all installations I've done with a G3.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, it's not a range issue. Doesn't make any difference on distance. The engine runs for about a minute then the decoder applies the brakes. It just sits there until I release the brakes.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

So you are saying its a decoder issue and not a convrtr problem?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

If it seems to be the WOWSound decoder that's causing the problems, I's suggest giving TCS Tech Support a call. I've found them to be quite good.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a WowSound... in order to help, I need to know what "programmed for prototypical operation" means. What settings are different from default?

(I'm guessing you are talking about braking).

I'd do a full reset of the decoder and see how it works from there, sounds like you are constantly applying the brakes.

Also, what throttle are you using?

Greg 1,107


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I believe Jim would be using a T-5000

Better let him verify.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It sort of sounds like the WowSound is receiving a brake signal. It's F7 right?

Greg 1,102


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, I'm using the T5000. Tech support suggested doing a reset. Will be doing that this afternoon.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Resetting the decoder, CV8=2, did fix the problem, but also had a strange affect.
The T5000 defaulted to address 3, but the CONVRTR's address stayed 8430, the one I originally assigned. 
But the CONVRTR's frequency changed to the default of 0. During the above process, I had the continually cycle the power off and on.
Next step is to use audio assist to change sound and control options back to what I originally selected.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I might suggest trying to change settings one at a time and then test operation. Perhaps there is some strange operation in the combination of settings. 

Doing them one at a time will allow you to isolate problems if they exist.

I've already found bugs in the Wowsound in certain cases.

Greg


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, what can you tell me about their CV assignments? Seems like CV's 201,202, 203 and 204 can have multiple values, which is hard to comprehend.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jim, I am not an expert (yet) on this decoder.

so these CV's are a way a few CV's to control a lot of stuff. This is normally called indexing in the DCC world. This is indeed the most complex indexing I have seen, usually only 2 index registers are used, this has 3 (granted the QSI has 3 also, but the manual is easier to use ha ha).

So you set up 201, 202, 203, and then the action is performed when you set 204...

So, in a sense 201, 202, 203 are modifiers, and they only count when you set something with 204. What is left in 201,202,203 really does not matter until you use them again to set 204.



so if you want to assign a sound to a button:
201 = 1
202 = the button number
203 = the "high part" of a sound... (each sound has a high part and a low part)
204 = the "low part" of a sound.... and when you enter this the command is exeuted.

For the life of me, I could not find the list of sounds that is referenced in the manual... I spent 15 minutes on the manual page... so that sucks.

What exactly are you trying to reprogram? All the sounds are assigned function keys already, although maybe not the keys you want.

You might want to go on the TCS Yahoo forum and ask directly there, and if you do find the manual that lists all the sounds by high and low parts, please let me know!

Regards, Greg 1,097


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have run into some issues with running DCC systems with a Converter. It's not an error, just a setting issue. I suggest that you turn off the ability to run on DC withing your decoder. Take a look at the settings for CV 29.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill can you expand on the specifics you have run into? I'm still exploring the WowSound, and compiling what I know. Any help or insight is appreciated.

Greg 1,093


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg, that helps a lot. I want to turn on "auto play" so I get the forward and reverse horn. 
Thanks Bill, that may be the reason I'm having problems with my Digitrax decoder in my Speeder.


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

The Wow decoders have a "crew alert" setting which acts like a dead man switch. If the decoder sees no activity in a set time it defaults to applying the brakes with brake squeal and stops the locomotive. The brake release then has to be activated to continue running the locomotive. I find its a pain and just disabled mine completely. The "WOW Diesel Complete Guide V4" describes how to turn it off. I was wondering if this was set on with a short timer setting and keeps applying the brakes and stopping your locomotive. See page 19 here.

http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Literature/Decoders/WOWSound/WOWdiesel Comp Guide V4.pdf

Hope this helps
Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like a perfect hypothesis, appears to be default to 43 seconds. The unit of measure is not defined in the manual (surprise).

I read the description, and if I read "between" the lines, this is the age old problem of many systems running DCC wireless.

In "proper" DCC, i.e. on the rails, the system constantly sends commands, not just what you command, but takes the "spare time" to send the speed commands to ALL locos on the track.

The idea is simple, in the old days, when power interruptions "reset" a decoder, it would go back to speed zero... so if you are sending "go speed 45" in your "spare time", then when the loco got power again, it would go 45.

Simple and effective.

Now, run DCC over the air with a battery powered transmitter. If you were sending commands all the time like "proper" DCC, your batteries would not last long.

So, you CHANGE the system to tell it, if your signal is interrupted, KEEP GOING at the last speed. (I'm sure this is now sounding familiar).

Back to the WOWSound, I think this setting is more than how it is described, it is really "If you have not gotten a DCC command in 43 seconds then put on the brakes" (in reality, 43 seconds, then 15 seconds of "alarm" / "Crew alert" and then the brakes).

I'll bet that is what is going on... 

But the proof will be what Jim finds out here... Note the "Crew Alert Timer" does not appear to have an "off" switch! So maybe it is somewhere else, or I would try a setting of zero in CV204 and try that.

Greg 1,092

p.s. I just posted on the TCS forum to see if I can get an answer.


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, if you turn off the transmitter in an AirWire system, the DCC signal stream stops. The Converter will then just put out DC. That will make the motor run away. This is not an issue with any of the other AirWire receivers since they motor decoder does not act-up when the DCC signal disappears.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jim wrote:


> ...Resetting the decoder, CV8=2, did fix the problem, but also had a strange affect.
> The T5000 defaulted to address 3, but the CONVRTR's address stayed 8430, the one I originally assigned.


The reset command CV8 = 2 has no effect on the Convertr, so it did not reset the Convertr address to defaults. The TCS reverted, but the Convertr stayed the same. Go into service mode on the T-5000 and set CV1 = 3 to reset the Convertr to the same address as the TCS board. With both Convertr and TCS now on the same address (3), you can reprogram CVs 17, 18, and 29 for long address recognition.



> ...Note the "Crew Alert Timer" does not appear to have an "off" switch!


The "Crew Alert Timer" is assigned to F16 by default. It's "off" as an initial state on power-up, but can be turned on and off at will by pressing the F16 button. According to the literature, the "crew alert" can also be assigned to a random sound. I don't know if that means just the audio portion of the crew alert or if the braking function goes as well. Seems that would be an odd thing to have turn on randomly. Take note if you're assigning sounds and functions to function keys to be careful with "crew alert." 

Anyway, I saw Greg's question about this on the TCS list, and followed up with some questions for him regarding the nature of what he was seeing and hearing. He never responded, but reading this thread fills in numerous holes that he did not. I mentioned in my response there that I had not experienced any unwanted automatic braking with my TCS Wow decoders; that they ran around my railroad for hours on end without any input from the throttle at all. My first thought went to which transmitter he may have been using. (NCE or Airwire?) Jim is using a T-5000 and having this behavior, so that rules transmitter incompatibility out, since I'm also using the T-5000. 

Steve's mention of the "Crew Alert" function (F16) makes perfect sense. I've never turned it on. Without it turned on, the locos should run (and run and run) without any input from the throttle. 

I've had a couple issues with my TCS decoders where a full reset was the only workable solution. The DCC equivalent to "did you try turning it off and turning it back on again?," perhaps. Difficult to say what causes them, but I'll also give props to TCS's tech gurus. They're very responsive to inquiries and fast to return repaired decoders.

Bill wrote:


> ...I have run into some issues with running DCC systems with a Converter. It's not an error, just a setting issue. I suggest that you turn off the ability to run on DC withing your decoder


I noticed that happening on the original 2.5-amp version, evidenced by my work goose taking off down the track at full speed if I turned it on prior to turning on the transmitter. The 6-amp version seems not to exhibit this--at least it didn't with my test. I haven't noticed it on the 1.5-amp version, either, but I don't remember if "run on DC" is turned on with the decoder connected to my 1.5-amp Convertr. 

Later,

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I just tested my Wow Diesel board, turning on "Crew Alert" (F16). It behaved exactly as described by Jim and Greg. It will run, but if you stop sending it commands for a little bit, you hear a brief alarm (beeping), then the brakes apply and the loco stops. Turning off F16, the loco ran without stopping. Note when you turn on F16, you hear an audible beep letting you know it's on. You do not hear a beep when you turn it off. (At least I didn't, but it turned off.) 

Later,

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, when you do the calibration step, how much of an incline is required to achieve the maximum effect?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like my hypothesis was proved. Maybe we could get TCS to update the manual and clarifiy the effects of this setting. Took some reading between the lines. 

My interactions with TCS products are typically that the manuals are either not in enough detail, too terse, or the information you want is spread across 3 manuals.

I cannot blame them totally, many people are intimidated by a large manual. To me, a well organized document, that quickly lets me "focus in" to what I want, but is COMPLETE is superior to a small one that leaves me guessing.

I also realize that many people are upset if the product does not come with a printed manual, and given the proper monitor on my computer/laptop, I find reading a manual faster and easier that way.

Anyway, I'll add this poorly documented "feature" to my web site.


Greg 1,067


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Calibration of the diesel is finicky, because the results may not be immediately noticeable or how you think they might work. I did mine outside on a flat section and on a 2.5% grade (my steepest). Step 1 is easy--running the loco light on the flat. Step 2 took some playing around with trains of varying lengths and different speeds to simulate what they mean by "notch 8 condition" and to get a suitable amount of variation for the typical trains I run. 

The way the TCS software works (as explained via e-mail by TCS) is that it recognizes that trains running at higher speeds pulling heavy loads will have a lot of momentum stored in them. As such, as a loco running under those conditions hits a grade, it will not rev up immediately, as the mass of the train (simulated, in this case) continues to push the loco up the hill, so the prime mover does not need to work quite as hard because the mass of the train is giving it that extra "push." Thus, a loco running at such throttle/load conditions will not have a lot of audible "wandering" of the throttle, as prototypically it would be fairly stable thanks to the mass of the train and speeds involved.

Now, take that same loco, reduce the number of cars, and lower the speed just a bit. It will hit that 2.5% grade, and you'll hear the prime mover really dig in to get the train up the grade. Slower speed, not as much load creating less momentum, and the prime mover would prototypically have to work harder, faster to maintain the speed. You will get a lot more variation in the prime mover as it moves up and down grades. 

The upshot is that it took some playing around with speeds and the number of cars being pulled up my 2.5% to where I got what I consider a suitable amount of prime mover change under "normal" running conditions. Because, after all, why buy a decoder that has that functionality if you're going to program it such that you don't hear it, right? I think (I'm not sure, because I played around with so many variables that I forget exactly what ended up giving me what I like) is that I calibrated step 2 with the throttle set to about 80%, with a slightly longer-than-usual train in tow. My "normal" operating speed is around 60% on the throttle, with 6 or 7 cars. 

Later,

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

It's not an "Airwire" thing. The Crew Alert timer does the same thing when run with the output of a traditional DCC command station. It's a feature of the decoder. I switched my TCS from its Airwire receiver to my MRC Prodigy system. No difference in performance. Pressing F16 on the MRC system turned on the Crew Alert. Leaving the controller untouched for around 30 - 40 seconds triggered the alarm and brake application. Hitting F16 to turn it back off enabled the loco to run "normally" without any automatic brake applications.

Greg, can you expand on your premise that the Airwire transmitter only transmits when there's a change to the current state (change in speed, function press, etc.?) I've heard that before, but based on what I've seen, I'm not certain it's entirely accurate, or I'm missing some important aspect. For instance, the Tam Valley Depot receiver has a signal strength indicator on it. If a transmitter is not transmitting (by your reasoning to save battery power) the indicator would be dark, would it not? If the transmitter is only sending a signal when there's a change in status, the signal strength indicator would only glow in the brief periods of time when the receiver is receiving those instructions. That's not the case, though. The signal strength indicator is glowing whenever the transmitter is powered on, set to the appropriate frequency, and within range. (I thought I had read somewhere that the signal strength indicator on the TVD receiver indicates the strength of valid instructions, not just a strong RF signal, but I can't find that reference at the moment.) There are other examples I could give which would lead me to believe the Airwire stuff is constantly transmitting valid DCC instructions, but I'd like to hear your reasoning first, as my observations could be in concert with your reasoning. 

Later,

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, thanks for the explanation of the calibration process. Kind of makes me want to stay with Phoenix and their "rev up" function. But then, I was looking for a challenge and this new decoder definitely offers one.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, I gave the line of reasoning before. The change in the "timeout" proves it, and also the first use of the AirWire system where the train stopped running when it was in a tunnel or out of range. I forget where you were when AirWire came out and people learned about how to solve this problem. I was here.

I'm not engaging you in combat any more when the facts are obvious. You on your own make my signature operational.

Greg 1,063


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Jim, they're really cool once you get them tweaked for your railroad. I've got the version 4 steam in my On30 2-8-0, and it's an absolute blast to hear it just dig into my 3% grade, then coast on the way back down. I've gotten completely away from Phoenix at this point. The latest generation of decoders are just too much fun to play with for a sound geek like me. That, and I've been spending a lot of time switching decoders from one loco to the next in order to get the best motor and sound performance out of each one. They've all got their quirky strengths and weaknesses, so it's fun to match decoder to locomotive for best results.

Greg, one of these days, I'll grasp why you feel I harbor hostility towards you, because in all seriousness, I don't. I genuinely want to help you figure out whatever issues you may be having with these TCS decoders. Not because I'm an "expert" on them, but because we're _all _complete novices with them. They're new technology that each of us is adapting for our railroads in our own unique ways. No one fully knows what makes these things tick, and we can most certainly learn from each others' different experiences. Maybe I'll see something that can help you as easily as you'll see something that will help Jim, etc. We seem to have all put our heads together and figured out the Crew Alert thing easy enough. 

Later,

K


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Update, so today I programmed the decoder to get the forward and reverse horn. Forward horn works as expected, but the reverse horn occasionally adds additional toots. I can live with that, so I read somewhere in the documentation that F12 does a shutdown. But When I executed F12, I got the message: "GE45 Tonner Single Chime" and the horn changed from what I had with the Alco sound file to a very sick horn.
I executed F12 a second time and this time I got a shutdown.
So I'm assuming I can go to "audio assist" and change the horn back to the original one.
BTW, I really like the way it goes into notch 8 under load, so I think I've got the calibration right, thanks Kevin.


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

WOW, just learned that F9 rotates either the horn or bell type! No wonder they named the decoder WOWSound.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The "rotate whistle/horn" is cool! I was running my diesel the other day, my wife came out and commented rather disparagingly on the horn. A quick press of F9, and I changed it to something she liked better. (Now, I gotta find a 3-chime horn casting for the loco.)

Every now and then, with my Airwire throttles, I'll press a function button and get something different, so I'm thinking your "45-tonner" message might have been something like that. For me, that happens to multiple locos/decoders, so it's something with the Airwire itself. Most often, it's a horn when I press F0 to turn on the headlights.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

could be either the decoder or the AirWire system. I'd lean more towards Kevin's assertion.

The airwire system does not validate commands, unlike other systems that are full duplex wireless.

Greg 1,056


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Programming an engine/any DCC device can be done with an inexpensive HO DCC system and select one that gives readback. Of course this does add to the expense of the airwire system but would make programming easier. Could use a friends DCC system!!


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Dan, I've had a Digitrax Chief for over 20 years. I haven't tried connecting the WOWSound Decoder that's connected to the AirWire CONVRTR to the Chief for programming purposes, and don't plan to.
I'm just amazed and impressed with the features of this new decoder.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan, the issue was pressing a function key and getting the wrong function.

Yes, could be isolated by using different DCC system, keeps happening, it's the decoder, stops happening, it's the DCC system.

I've seen a lot of garbled function commands on AirWire systems, one image is easy to recall in my mind: Dennis Serrine (you know the guy with over a million in trains) chasing an AirWire train, trying to stop it, as it barreled full throttle off the layout into the tunnel that led to the garage... 

That's the day that I realized there is no global emergency stop in AirWire, actually most R/C systems.

Anyway, this is tied to things like transmitting the horn off command multiple times to avoid the "horn stuck on" etc.

Greg 1,054


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Question...

If I have a hard-wired Convertr/Decoder pair, can I simply attach a 2-wire plug to the decoder in parallel to the Convertr for programming directly from JMRI or other "traditional" source, or will that back-feed instructions to the Convertr and screw things up? In the past I've either wired in a DPDT switch so I can choose the input to the decoder, or just not worried about it. (In On30, you don't have room for extra connections.) For the larger boards, it's easy enough to disconnect the screw terminals on the inputs, but that still requires opening up the loco, which is something I try to avoid. Tenders are one thing, but my diesels require a bit of surgery to get to the innards. 

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

To access most motor type decoders for readback, you need a motor connected to the digital decoder, so adding DPDT switch to select the track input works if the motor is connected to the DCC decoder and not the airwire.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The motor is connected to the decoder. I'm thinking about the possibility of omitting the DPDT swithc to select Airwire between Airwire or JMRI input to the decoder, and just having a pig-tail wired to the decoder that I could plug into my JMRI box. Would I do any harm to the Airwire receiver by effectively having it connected to the JMRI as well? (Essentially, I'd be feeding DCC signals into the output of the Airwire.)

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I would isolate one of the wires between the airwire and decoder and not have any power to the airwire.
If not sure then isolate both.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

both... dpdt pretty much same price as spdt

Greg 1,043


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## locomansounds (Jul 7, 2017)

Methodical elimination of the suspects is the only way to go when troubleshooting these complicated systems.


Greg Elmassian said:


> I might suggest trying to change settings one at a time and then test operation. Perhaps there is some strange operation in the combination of settings.
> 
> Doing them one at a time will allow you to isolate problems if they exist.
> 
> ...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'd definitely use a DPDT. I was pondering the possibility of eliminating the switch altogether if it were possible. I'll have to bounce that one off of Airwire at some point. I get the sense that back-feeding a DCC signal into the output of the receiver would not be a good thing, and I'm not in the mood to brick a receiver proving my gut feeling is right. 

The "quick and dirty" solution would be to use a 2-pin connector pair between receiver and decoder where room permits. That way one can easily swap between DCC inputs to the decoder, provided one can easily get to it at least.

Later,

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

To follow up on an earlier part of this discussion relative to what the Airwire transmitters do, I had a chance to chat with CVP (Airwire's manufacturer) this evening at the Narrow Gauge Convention. I asked them about their transmitters.

Airwire's transmitters (RF1300, T9000, T5000, T1300) transmit valid DCC packets full time. If the transmittter is on, it's sending DCC packets. That's why the T5000 drinks batteries like there's no tomorrow (and why I love the rechargeable batteries in the new T1300). If a decoder is shutting down because of the packet time-out setting on the decoder, it is doing so only because the receiver is out of range of the transmitter, thus not able to send the packets from the transmitter to the decoder, not because the transmitter is not broadcasting valid DCC packets in the first place. They're always there--it's just a matter of whether the receiver can "hear" them or not.

CVP also makes the "EasyDCC" system. This is a separate product from their "Airwire" product line. This is a wireless command station with multiple throttles communicating to a single central receiver (command station) which then sends DCC through the rails to all the locomotives on the railroad. The throttles in this product range share the same product numbers as the Airwire throttles, but with an "E" appended to the name ("T5000*E*", etc.). These transmitters DO NOT transmit full time. With only one central receiver, you cannot have multiple transmitters all operating on the same frequency broadcasting at the same time. The receiver wouldn't be able to understand anything. CVP's solution is to have these transmitters only broadcast when changes are being made. Those aren't the transmitters we use with our Airwire receivers (G3 and Convertr), so their behavior does not apply to our operating environment.

I do not know for certain whether or not NCE's "G-wire" transmitter broadcasts full time or not. From our discussion relative to issue of latency with "change only" transmitters, it's possible it does not, or it could just be how the NCE controller bundles things. They didn't say.

Hopefully this clears up any confusion about how Airwire's transmitters operate.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting, I ran a layout where some locos were airwire, battery powered, and some were track powered easydcc. I swear I was able touse the same transmitter on both. I wonder if one of the airware ones could be used on easydcc, i.e. only one transmitter at a time...

pretty sure the gwire units transmit continuously... blinking led on top.

Greg


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

My understanding is that the T5000 and T5000E are NOT compatible with each other. The AirWire receivers will not work with the T5000E and vise versa. As EBT said, they are for different product families.


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