# Finally doing roadbed...



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi!

Last February-March I started a thread on concrete roadbed ("More concrete roadbed questions"), and many of you hugely contributed (with great pics!) in that discussion. Thank you so much!

I apologize for not better frequenting this forum; my main worries tend to be expressed here in the winter. I kinda suck at being a year-round participant. 

Anyway, trying to assimilate all that was said on that prior thread, I've finally gotten to roadbed construction, and I wanted to post on how things have gone. 

I've begun with the toughest area in the intended layout: very tight, three levels involved, and terrain that fights what the track must do. Here's a shot of this corner:











The challenge has been to abide by all the rules in track laying, in a tight space, in wierd terrain, while keeping true to a quasi-prototypical arrangement of major features that I'm interested in.

The steel rods represent sharp-corner geometry of the track. In the above pic, about 1/3 of the strings have been run, which represent top-of-track.

After that, a lot of stuff happened.













The above pic shows several things:
- Trenching to 6" below the strings
- Curve templates, to guide the form stakes
- Form stakes (3/8" rebar)
- Initial form sides (1/4" masonite)

Here's a close-up:












I wired the masonite strips to the rebar stakes, doubling them up. The nice thing about this method is that the dual layers of masonite tend to force a nice blending, even in the curves. To join the layers, and secure them to the stakes, I just used galvanized wire and a pair of pliers.












Next, I poured in gravel:










I tamped it down, two times, between and on either side. 

Just before this, I laid a couple of corrugated drain lines to pass beneath this section.

Here's how it looked:










This was my first pour ever, and the top surface isn't as smooth as I would have liked... I'm trying to get the water proportion correct...

Here is the loop, including the next section I'm forming up while the first one hardens:











Anyway, I need to ask some questions.

Per prior discussions here, I've added ~2" of gravel beneath the (4") concrete. This is to ameliorate the effects of frost heave. However, from my current observation point, such a deepened trench (with gravel) might also be a nice water and ice collection point. 

Marty, JJ, as far as I can tell, you poured your 'crete right on the dirt. However, Marty and Jake (as I recall, please forgive me if I'm mistating things) you recommend the gravel layer beneath the concrete. 

Well, for better or worse, I've got a gravel layer there! I guess I'm wanting some reassurance, or specific advice as to correct things while I can.

Best regards all.

CJ


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

wooow, that looks like you used your brain on it. It hurt mine just thinking of all the thinking you put into it. 
Did you put a bar in the concrete tho??? thats the strength or back bone of it? 

Looks great.. 

I only read alittle of the thread, I was so busy looking at the photos.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi Cliffy! 

Glad to see you back at it. Looks like you have quite a few points laid out! I you are worried about water collection in the gravel you could add a short french drain perpendicular to the tracks every ten feet or so that carries the water out to the edge of your island. Marty is right you need a piece of rebar running through your concrete if it isn't in there. Overlap them at the joints by 6 inches and tie together with wire. If you don't put this in you road bed will crack and heave every where in short time. With it, you may get a few cracks but it won't move or heave. Keep sharing those progress shots.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Ha ha! Thanks Marty.

Yep, there is 3/8" rebar down the center (propped up to the vertical center with small rocks here and there).


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Randy, thanks! 

Yes on the rebar (see my prior). I think your french drain idea is a good one; no reason not to, with the track semi-elevated. 

I'm sort of wondering though if I'm putting too much trench and gravel in, and thereby inviting (or increasing) a water problem that shouldn't have been there? 

Marty, to what extent do you lay gravel, and to what depth? And what are the differences (drainage, heave) with and without it?

Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't put any gravel under my concrete road bed.

Of course I don't have much water issues. 

It it is a single track I use this 

If it is a double track I use the standard tamper you can get from HD.


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## Chris France (Jan 3, 2008)

I didn't do any gravel on mine, honestly didn't even tamp. Haven't had any water related issues that I know of in the almost 6 years my layout has been down.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

tamping is mainly for back filled areas. When I had the eastern side done , the clay vain was so hard stacks would hardly pound into it. 
But I had 3 ft of fill dirt on the south end and there I used a gas powered tamper. 

So the conditions very. 

I just think its so NEAT to see a brand new railroad come to live before our very eyes.
This is what the forum is all about.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Marty, thanks for the vote of confidence!

This end of the layout is 'virgin' soil, mixed with some clay and a whole lot of rocks. The other end has up to 4' of fill, which was gas-powered-tamped in about 1' layers. 

We get a lot of rain, so I've been kinda anal about laying drain lines and gravel. Probably overkill, but I've been relying on earlier and good advice on this forum, in the hopes of minimizing the heave issues.

Anyway, I finished that lower loop today... wow, my back hurts! But by the time I finished the templates, stakes, liner, forms, gravel and rebar, the concrete was a breeze -- and actually, quite fun!

Now, just in case someone in the future attempts something like this method, I'd like to make a couple safety points. Been thinking about it all day, so bear with me. 

Those "mushrooms" on the tall stakes are so one doesn't slip and fall, and discover a piece of rebar through one's ribcage or eye socket. Believe me, I've come close! I was going to make some blocks to do the same thing, but Lowe's had these bad boys, a bag of 25 for $10. I recommend them!

Second, I found that cutting my own short rebar stakes from 10 foot lengths (on a chop saw, with metal blade) saved a bunch of bucks, and didn't result in the bent end (as with a cutter). However, though I ground points on the business end (my soil is full of rocks, so I had to), I didn't debur the pounding end. By the time it came to wiring the forms, I found that each stake end had this nice little circular razor blade! So, I'd advise deburring, if you use the chop saw on rebar. Or have a big box of band aids handy!

Finally, a word on that wire. I looped it around the form strips, and was concerned that it would interfere with the screeding. Well, at least for my novice level of concrete activity, it was no problem at all. However, all that wire tends to reach out and touch, and I cut my wrist pretty nicely -- no to mention a countless pokes and more minor cuts. Hint: wear gloves that cover the wrist, and take the time to bend the wires towards the forms.

Just wanted to get those items off my chest. 

And dont' get me wrong -- it's been a lot of fun!

Thanks guys,

Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Its good to see your getting something going. I was wondering how your progress was. 

The suggestion to put gravel under the concrete is to give you a solid base and to help with the frost heave. Most of your concrete will be on a filled material so estabilshing a solid base is critical. As for drainage, the rock is better than your native soil, almost all soil has some degree of clay in it. Clay acts like a sponge when it comes to water and swells. The rock base balances out that swelling and provides a much more solid base. The work is more but I believe it will be better for you in the long run. 

I think your base looks excellent, it looks to me like you have all the elements to have a solid concrete roadbed. Good luck.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

One other thing, the concern about drainage: 

The rock will allow water to flow through the base more freely and drain. If you had the concrete on native soil then the clay in the soil would absorb the water and drainage would be much less. The fact you think your going overkill on the drainage is a good thing, you can never have too much drainage. I always felt if I thought I had too much drainage, I probably didnt have enough.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Howdy Jake, great to hear from you. And I appreciate all the input on concrete you gave me last Feb-Mar.

This is all great clarfication on one point: as Randy points out, and I believe you are alluding to, one must drain the trench. Which is fine, I just need to keep that in mind. 

The gravel / trench of this lower loop of concrete I started with is basically a gutter. It's easy enough to make a french drain "spur" or two, as Randy suggests, to drain the whole thing.

Thanks much,
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

John, Marty, Jake and Randy, thanks so much for your help on this and prior threads.

Just a bit of status report, here's what that leg looks like with the forms removed. The surface is pretty rough, but the grade looks consistent and so forth. I bought something called a smoothing block, kinda like a sanding block but with a surface like a grinder blade. That helped take the sharp edges off, and smooth the surface. Even so, I'm counting on Marty's assertion that the ballast will cover a lot of sins!












Before I go into the next tier, there are a couple things I'd like to do which I would love input on from you guys.

For backfill against the ribbon, I was thinking about laying some fabric over the gravel, and just putting in dirt. Like a french drain. However, the weeds will explode into that fill, right up against the ribbon, and I kinda hate to see the natural barrier (gravel) on either side be wasted... Assuming ballast, over the ribbon, it would be nice to have that barrier for, say, 2 or 3 inches on either side... I've got a bunch of sand, and some gravel; maybe I should backfill with one or both of those? The gravel is way too wide to just fill up and top off with ballast, so the final effect needs to be narrower than the trench... Any ideas?

I'm probably not making too much sense in how I'm phrasing the question, but mainly I want to avoid making a stupid mistake as I start throwing dirt around from the next tier's trench.

The other thing involves the steep-walled cut, at the bottom of the photo. The near side wall is about 30" tall, and at the moment is just exposed dirt. There is now a nice gravel base at the foot of that wall. So... I was thinking about slathering on some concrete against that dirt wall, laying on a galvanised cloth mesh, letting it set a bit, and then putting on another 1/2 inch of concrete. Say 1" to 1.5" total thickness. Might that suffice as a sort of local wall? It would be structurally "retaining", just preventing soil from eroding down into that cut. Thoughts?

Thanks guys,
Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

You are making great progress on your RR. I like the way you did it. 

I know what you mean about gloves. The expanded Mesh that I am using for mountians leaves my hands a bloody mess. 

I never use to wear Safty Glasses untill the last couple of years. Had a couple of close calls with flying debris. 

The ones they make now look kewl and they are tinted for working out in the sun 

I have 6 or 7 pair all around the layout so they are close at hand 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good thought on the glasses John, that is, having a bunch of them (and not just one pair). And thanks for the compliment.

Did you see my question on making that concrete skin to a cut in the dirt, to stabilize it? Since you're using expanded mesh and concrete, I'm sure you have a good opinion or two on that sort of thing.

A small progress point (I'm using this thread as a sort of diary), I'm now on a huge and unexpected side track. The geometry of the next teir I want to pour necessitates a major reworking of my stone retaining wall. I might finish that re-work tomorrow; but it will be a few weeks until I have any major time to spend on the actual trenching / forming / pouring of that higher loop.

Cliff


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## gnichols (Jan 9, 2008)

Cliff, 
I've been wondering what kind of mileage you are getting on your road bed? How many sacks of concrete per foot, so to speak? BTW, I have a friend in Nashville that did the same kind of thing and his trains run like they were on a billard table - smooth, smooth, smooth. Gary


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Two things you can do with that wall 

1, Build a form in front of the wall. The pour concrete like a retaining wall. I would add some color dye of some kind. Then once the concrete is set some what. Remove the form and wash off the surface cement exposing the agregae like rocks and dirt. 

2. You can take rebar and drive it in the ground and then attach expanded metal mesh to create a wall like this

Then cover it with stucco.















JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Great confirmation, Gary, thanks!

This leg is 42' long, and I used 6 bags of concrete mix @80 lbs each, so if I do my math right that means:
- 7 ft per 80 lb bag
- 11.4 lbs/ft
This is for an average cross section of 4.5" wide x 4" deep.

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Nice pic, John!

I like your expended mesh idea. Not sure about the stucco though: being from California originally, I'm familiar with it enough, but it's not worth it to have a company come out with their spray rig. But it doesn't sound like you're suggesting that... so, how do you apply stucco? Is there a manual or low-cost means? I see you have a shop vac there... Are you blowing it yourself? 

Cliff

PS John, from your photosI suspect your back hurts every Monday morning just as much as mine, ha ha!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another progress report...

Regarding that unexpected problem mentioned earlier: I realized that there was no great way to support the second tier in a certain spot where it came near the roadbed I'd just poured. Too much elevation delta, and I wanted to make things look right with the stone retaining wall. 

So... I decided to split the retaining wall, make the new "inboard" leg of it support the troublesome trackage, and adjust said trackage inward to make room.










The ribbon in the foreground is what was just poured, a few days ago. The hump-backed stone wall to the right and behind it is the thing I just described. You can see how I've just begun carving out the terrace for the next tier, which will in fact be the bottom of the trench for the gravel & concrete for the next tier.

CJ


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

These are the tools I use to do sutcco. I mix small amount in the cut off plastic budket bottom till it looks like cacke frosting. It takes a little to get it the right viscosity but once you do your off and running . 

I have a flat patten that plasterers use. It is a falt plate with a handle on the bottom from Home Depot . I use the putty inife you see way ofer to the right to apply the stucco to the mesh. After I apply the stucco I dip the putty knive in water and smooth out as nessessary. 

The mixture is 60 % stucco/motar mix and 40 % lime. The lime makes it sticky

I got the Hand Mixer at a gararge sale 

The rest of the tools I use to shape what I want 











This wall is 7 ft tall I created it with the tools showen above. You can do the same. You can add concrete dye to make what color you want or you can pait it with exterior paint


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

A 7 foot tall concrete sail....Nice work John! Seriously! I'd be afraid with some of the wind we get that it would blow over though....at least at that height. 

Chas


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey Cliff, 
Looks like good progress is being made. I can see you are definatly going for maintenance free railroad. I notice no one really picked up on you question about weed suppression by the track side. I really don't think it would matter what you put beside your concrete ribbon for fill eventually weeds will grow in it. Ive had them grow in gravel, sand , and dirt. I would make sure your gravel is totally covered bottom sides and top by weed barrier to keep dirt from migrating down into it and stopping your drainage. As for the weeds I'm not sure what look you are shooting for do you want green by the track just not in the way or do you want more of a dirt bordering. If you want dirt the answer is easy. Weed killer the type that soaks in to the soil for 6 months every where you don't want them. I'm sure a spray car could be devised for easy application. If you want green, I think you will have to experiment with some different plants to install so that they take over before the weeds. There are some that don't grow very tall that would work well by track side. Moss especially. But eventually you will have to go through and weed and trim. I guess it's all give and take. Maybe some other more expericed gardeners can chime in here as to other methods and good plants to use.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi John!

That's an amazing structure. It looks like you are continuing it around and beyond and further, like a cosmetic backdrop? As opposed to an earth-retaining thing. Very cool.

Thanks for describing your stucco formulation; I'd thought it was all about spraying concrete, stupid me.

CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Randy,

Thanks very much. I appreciate your picking up on that hard-to-describe concern, and your implied history with it.

Yeah, I agree with you that no matter what you fill with (and I'll throw in the fabric covering you suggest, and I'll do as you say, but nothing's gauranteed...!), the weeds will come. 

And yes, at least for the next few years, I'm going to follow a scorched-earth policy, for some margin on either side of the roadbed. 

Eventually, I'll get into the planting and gardening and flowers and miniature trees and shrubs and whatever. For now, I only want to get at least some track laid, and have at least some weeks before the jungle takes over, ha ha! 

I love your idea of the nuke-what's-growing-beside-your-track-car. Seems far more practical and marketing-viable than all the attempt-to-clean-your-track-cars on the market. 

CJ


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

What I've found at home is that one good day of cleaning out the weeds in the spring or early summer tend to keep them down to a manageable job the rest of the summer. Of course at this point nothing is growing at home. We are suffering some drought locally. Not Texas sized, but a drought all the same. Even the weeds are brown in my lawn now. We've not had any rain since early June at this point. 

I honestly think that somehting like this will be in my future ...so I'm paying attention. Thanks for sharing guys! 

Chas


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By wchasr on 22 Jul 2011 05:53 AM 
What I've found at home is that one good day of cleaning out the weeds in the spring or early summer tend to keep them down to a manageable job the rest of the summer. Of course at this point nothing is growing at home. We are suffering some drought locally. Not Texas sized, but a drought all the same. Even the weeds are brown in my lawn now. We've not had any rain since early June at this point. 

I honestly think that somehting like this will be in my future ...so I'm paying attention. Thanks for sharing guys! 

Chas 


I selectively pull weeds. On my budget they can be a cheap ground cover









We in AZ are supposed to be in a drought too. I find it hard to believe that the desert can have a drought. I think drought is a natural thing in the desert


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Posted By CliffyJ on 21 Jul 2011 09:20 PM 



"I'm going to follow a scorched-earth policy," 
"nuke-what's-growing-beside-your-track-car." 
With your Names for my ideas we should go into business.







We cant loose! I do want to develop a car like that, but I need to get my track down first and that is a lot of posts from now.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Chas for the reassurance that it's all somehow manageable. I'm trusting that I'll get to the point of annual maintenance of weeds and garden and so forth. 

It was kinda discouraging to see my nice new island (built last summer / fall) almost explode with weeds, since April. The weeds on the north end are almost 5' tall, with aggressive and thorny vines now trying to take over the new stair I built into the deck... sheesh!! OK, yes, I could have been more responsible and pulled or killed them... but I was determined to get some track laid this year, and that means roadbed, and focusing on that (and ignoring the weeds)... 

John, we've been recently slammed with the same heat wave that the central states have been seeing, and I could swear that my weeds are being energized by it all... they're laughing at me! They're getting greener and taller and more ambitous.... Some of the weeds are now wanting to become bushes; and some of them are trying to become frickin' trees! If I 

Hence my sort of blatant terms for your weed-killer car idea, Randy! And I had a good laugh on your response. There should be some nice description for your tanker idea, combining perhaps the notions of "ballast" and "ballistic", but I havent quite hit on it. 

Here's another idea: an RC tanker plane, loaded with track/kid/pet-friendly (in that order, ha ha!) but weed-deadly spray... I can see the TV add: Robert Duval saying, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning. But you know what gets me and my garden railroad through the afternoon? It's Ballast-Ick. It not only smells manly, but kicks those weeds in the a$$, and gives me a great buzz to boot. Fun to fly; and you'll never need beer again!" 



CJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi again,

I've not made much progress over the weekend, but I wanted to post a shot or two on prep for my second (middle) tier on this end of the layout.










Had to set up a ladder for that shot. Here's a ground level pic, showing the recent retaining wall changes mentioned in earlier posts:











The 2nd- tier wood strips are templates for drving the stakes that will hold the masonite form strips; so they're about 6" below the top surface of the concrete roadbed. For the moment, these strips are held in place with tent pegs and galvanized spikes, just to keep them parked until next weekend. 

With this heat, and especially when the sun came round the trees, I was kinda done in by 3:00 today. Anyone else having heat issues? 

Thanks guys; it's wonderful having a a place to talk about what I've been trying to do, and get your feedback.

===>Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I hear ya about the heat. I didnt get a whole lot done on my railroad this past weekend either. And I also am having the problems with weeds. Its funny I never really noticed a problem with creeping jenny. Now that I dont want it, good lord it is hard to kill. I'm thinking myself, I wont worry too much about the weeds unless they start to get real tall, I'll have plenty of time to deal with them later. 

I plan to work a little each night, I figure a little progress is still progress. If that means just setting stakes for an hour then thats what I'll do.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Heat...heh...it's the humidity that kills me...I was done spreading ballast by 9am Saturday...only because I ran out and my company picnic started at 10. We then went and walked 3 miles as part of the picnic and then walked around at the picnic. A long day to be sure. Sunday was helping a friend move (this is why I own a utility traielr? Seriosuly?) I ate dinner and passed out last night. I think I sweat out 5 gallons yesterday! 

Take it easy out there and don't over do it! 

Chas


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I plan to work a little each night, I figure a little progress is still progress. If that means just setting stakes for an hour then thats what I'll do. 

Good advice, Jake. Even if it takes an extra hour for tool-cleanup and self-cleanup, that's still a good chunk in total. At least, I'm telling myself that! And yes, stake-setting is a great candidate for short activities, so I'll keep that in mind. 

Related topic: What are you using for concrete mixture? I think I screwed up, because the surface is really rough, not at all like (say) a regular concrete curb or sidewalk. Maybe it was because I didn't add more Portland to the pre-mixed bag (as Marty recommends). Or maybe I added too much water (don't think so, but maybe; less wouldn't screed at all). Or, maybe it was because the bags were sitting in my garage over the winter and got damp; I had to pound the heck out of them to turn back into powder. 

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Chas, you describe perfectly the family and company picnics I (must) attend. Invariably, they're on the hottest days, and managed by romantic souls who can't adjust their plans merely due to increased risk of heat stroke. 



===Cliff

PS, sell the trailer and get a nice Shay.








PSS, sell the trailer to a relative you don't like.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

For a smooth surface on your concrete...are you using a trowel? Also, I've seen many guys doing finish work take a nylon fibre small broom and dip it in water and drip the water on the top of the surface of the concrete. Then use your trowel across the top of the mix. Keep working it with water and the trowel until you get your desired smooth surface. The key is the water, it allows the trowel to move across the concrete surface without causing it to "drag" and cause a rough surface. 

With that said it doesnt have to be "gym floor" smooth. Your track will make up for slight roughness. 

As for tool cleanup, I had that same problem. So I got myself a 5 gal plastic bucket and put the tools I needed for what I was currently working on. Then just threw them back in the bucket when I clean up my tools and set the bucket back in the garage.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What you neeed to make the top of the road bed smooth is the tool just under the masonary hammer in my picture. Like Jake said. Dip it in water as you use it. You will notice right away when you have to dip it again. 

JJ


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, 
Can't sell the trailer yet...I'm still building the railroad! Another .9 ton's of crusher fines picked up with it at Lunchtime today! If I ever try concrete/cement roadbed I'll need it for hauling the bags of mix. 
Any progress lately? I think because I'm working on mine (finally) I'm even more excited about others work. More than normal. 
Chas


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Many thanks Jake and John for those pointers.

Yep, I used a trowell just like yours, John. But I think I either used too much water (I'll try less, you can bet!), or maybe the mix was flaky after having gotten slightly damp and having to be broken up. I'll be using new stuff the next time, so we'll see.

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By wchasr on 27 Jul 2011 11:51 AM 
Cliff, 
Can't sell the trailer yet...I'm still building the railroad! Another .9 ton's of crusher fines picked up with it at Lunchtime today! If I ever try concrete/cement roadbed I'll need it for hauling the bags of mix. 
Any progress lately? I think because I'm working on mine (finally) I'm even more excited about others work. More than normal. 
Chas 


Not yet; I'm waiting on you to make the next move, for the same reasons, ha ha!

Actually, I'll be hitting it hard this weekend, and all next week (burning up some vacation time).

So I'll be posting during that effort. 

Regards,
Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Another tool for making smooth concrete is the third tool over from the hammer in my picture. I use that more than anything. It is aobut 2 inches wide and 4 incles long. 
That is real good for trowling concrete in narrow places You can get it at Home Depot. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John and everyone for all your help.

I'm afraid that with me, everying will seem to be in slow motion. 

But I made a little progress yesterday and today, in making and setting stake templates, doing the staking, and laying fabric.











I've been fretting about that area where a level loop meets a sloping leg (in the foreground). I'm probably fretting and over-thinking and over-engineering way too much. But anyway, I decided to plot and cut a template just for that double-switch area, to make sure the stakes were positioned correctly.










You guys like my weeds?

Anyway, enough of my belly-aching. Here's a bit of progress report, on this strange method.

The "primary" and "secondary" stake plotting, in the surveying stage, worked like a charm. But as I've learned, sometimes one of those key points ends up right where you need to form for, and pour, concrete. 

In the above pic, the stake at the top and center is a geometric "primary" for me, and it has three strings coming to it. Unfortunately, that stake is exactly in the way of the concrete form to be built.










In the above pic, the problem "primary" stake is in the center. But the strings to it have been re-tied to three other stakes, to allow its removal. Using the problem stake's position and elevation marker, it was not difficult to extend each of the three strings to new stakes beyond that nexus, to make way for the form-building (but preserve the string lines for form elevation purposes).

Anyway, the stakes are driven for this loop, the landscape fabric has been laid, and the driving strings are intact.

I'll be building the forms tomorrow.

Cheers,
Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another progress report.

I finally got my forms built for this loop:










The most difficult area has been where three legs come together:











Tomorrow will be drainage lines, conduit and gravel, God willing and rain withholding. I'm hoping to pour this bad boy on Thursday, because I have to fly out on Friday to CA for a family gathering, and I'm concerned over rain damage to the forms over that period. I'm really not happy about having to make this trip... I mean, HUGELY not happy with the need and the timing, but I'll stop myself and get on with the subject.

Speaking of rain damage, it really poured last night. And today, I found that one of the overlapped masonite joints bent severely, due to soakage of the one layer that went through. The whole point in this method is to let the masonite strips (two layers) even each other out, and make nice curves even thru joints. But adding the soakage factor resulting in a kink. However, it was easily remedied by wiring on a short, local, third layer of strip, and that bent things back to a more natural curve.

I'm sure I'm doing everything the hard way, but I'd like to point out the positive points of this method -- a method to which I've felt driven.

-- The stake-and-string surveying allowed me fairly good accuracy with the plan I had
-- The trenching-to-the-string (with templates) was fairly straightforward
-- Staking and strip-forming has been straightforward as well, and lends itself to nice blends of curves and gradient changes
-- The method has been fairly cheap, and (given sufficient old chair pads to kneel upon) quite pleasant for me, to gradually work along the section involved
-- The double-layer form strips really even things out, and are easy to adjust (with a sufficient number of quick-clamps)
-- When tamping the gravel, it's very easy to "gauge" and otherwise shape the forms, one way or another

Well, that's all for today. Thanks for letting me share.

====Cliff


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Great work Cliff!! The attention you are paying to detail will pay off big soon. 

One suggestion, Instead of the Masonite coming to a point in the frog area of the switches, perhaps if you found a 3 or 4 inch round chunk of wood (baseball bat? ) you could put a fillet there which would be much stronger and easier to remove, form wise. To make it purrfect you would have to "mill" a grove down each side for the Masonite to set flush in.

Watching you is real inspiration. I'm still finishing my garage/room above won't be able to start the railroad till Fall, so you are really tiding me over. Thanks !


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Randy, you just made my day.

As to the frogs in the forms, you and I are are exactly on the same wavelength. I was expecting to put in a "frog-block", and design it on the fly. But when push came to shove, it ended up being more a tug of war with what the form strips wanted to do, vs. what I would compromise on (mainly: level-ness). In the end, I just let the strips meet together, and I measured / wired / staked them until they cooperated. 

But I'll be the first person to roger up to what you're saying! I'm sure you're correct; I'm very much the novice here.

Thanks for the encouragement,

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another progress report, just to show what's going into the "recipe". I've no idea if this will stand up in the long run, but it's great to have a place to share the blow-by-blow regardless.

The next thing I needed to do was insert a few drain tubes and "conduit culverts". Given the fact that the whole thing is going to act like a french drain, the former may not bee needed; but I didn't want to take a chance. The latter are pieces of cheap 1" PEP "pipe", the sort used on sprinkler systems. These are for wiring or drip irrigation. I've no idea where I will ultimately need them, so I put a bunch in. Also, I took pics of each one, to assist in locating them later.










Then came the gravel. I just got finished with that, before the rains started a'comin:










Tomorrow, if my back holds out  the next steps will be: tamp the gravel, bend / prop up / tie the rebar, and pouring.

Funny how the mixing and pouring is one of the easiest steps to all this!

After that will come the backfill, which (with more fabric) will reduce a lot of that gravel footprint.

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

And here be the concrete:


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Wow Cliff that really turned out nice. Did the forms come off easily? How many more feet of road bed do you intend to get down this summer? It would be nice if you could get a loop running since that might put some more wind in your sails. Keep up the good work.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Randy, thanks for the reply! 

I'm hoping to do about 3x more than what's in the photos, this year; but we'll see! At some point, I'll pinch it off and just put gravel in for a temporary reverse loop, and lay track. 

Yes, the forms came off easily. I wasted a bunch of time on the first batch, trying to straighten all the wires to re-use them; second batch, I just snipped them and tossed 'em. I used vise-grip pliers to pull the stakes (I should get a mini-crowbar though); and then the form strips just fell away. I took my time in cleaning & stacking the strips though. 

I appreciate the question, and the encouragement! 

Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, I finally got the next section laid, here's a couple pics.



















I'm starting on the next section:










That's probably it for the weekend, with good ol' Irene coming thru!

===Cliff


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Looks great cliff. I see plenty of drainage and a good base. I think you're concerns have been met and you will enjoy your railroad for many years.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Jake. You've been a huge help in working out the approach!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Well Cliff, 
It's been a while. Some of us who haven't been able to put any track down this year need to live vicariously through other peoples work. It's really looking good. How did all that drainage work during Irene? Any track down yet?


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Randy, so nice of you to ask! 

A work-related project has kept me on the road for the last 2 months; and with rain on the weekends, I have to admit that the concrete isn't done, and no track laid. 

However, I did get the last section (for this seaon) formed up:






























I got about half of this poured last weeked, but it's been drizzling this weekend, so...

Yes, we got the blast from Irene; probably not as badly as you, but bad enough! The ribbon held up fine though, with no washouts in the gravel, I'm pleased to report.

Again, thanks for asking Randy!

===Cliff


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I have not visited this thread for a while. You have made some great progress and it is looking real good. 

JJ


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks John, I sure appreciate it.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks Cliff, I feel better now. It really looks great. You have gotten quite a bit done in one year and with the precision of a Swiss watch. I thought about concrete for my pike but have decided on a limestone/crusher fine base instead. I give you credit for taking the hardest route. You can rest easy knowing that it will last for years. I'm still hoping to get a loop down this year before winter. I'm just getting paint in the last room of an addition to our house this weekend so then I can move out side build some retaining walls and lay track!


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Randy, and thanks for the reassurance. 

Thanks to not having to travel, and the weather bing absolutely wonderful this weekend, I did my final pours today:










In the grand scheme, there wasn't much added (you can see the dark areas in the ribbon). After a bunch of tool setup, it only took about 2 hours to complete.

The main bummer was that I discovered my tool bin was unlatched and uncovered by a racoon or some other critter... so it took 2 hours to clean my tools from all the rust.

The good news is that I now have, for this season, several good reasons to stop here. The first is illustrated below:











I had been intending a temporary revese loop here. But looking at it today, seeing the grading and temporary gravel, and having only a month to go in the season, I said Forget it. 

What i'll try to do now is clean up for the fall and winter, and then try to lay some track. 

It'll be my first attempt, and I'm kinda scared, so you can probaly expect me to whine all about it on a different thread. It will probably be entitled "Finally laying track". Thanks for hanging with me bruthas, in all this. 

Cliff

PS, over the last weekend, I attended, on the other side of the country, a convention of the historical society serving the railroad I'm interested in. I'd no idea what was expected of me, and I was made very well aware of my shortcomings. Was very discouraging; but I'm coming back, appreciating all that was tought, but holding my ground on certain historical issues. Be interesting to open a thread here, on what others have encountered in that regard...

PSS, at least here, with all my faults one way or another, I'm amongst friends.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey, sorry for whining yesterday about the historical society, I'm sure it'll all work out eventually.

Here's how the roadbed looks, "de-formed": 










I should point out that the reason for the odd arrangement is because this is a compressed version of the prototype. The spurs mostly serve ore bins of particular mines. The stakes with mushrooms mark where the upper trackage goes, which supplied the main works of the same mines. The wiered almost-crossover in the foreground represents a hisorical change in the proto trackage (with one added change by me, as an operational compromise).

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Marty, John, Jake, or others, I have a question.











There are three places where I cannot complete the roadbed this year. Each has rebar sticking out of them. Is there a way to coat these ends, so as not to propagate rust into the present concrete? 


Got some weeding done today, and can now see once more the north island built a year ago:










Tomorrow, surface grinding and, hopefully, track! Per the great advice of John and Marty and others, I got my hammer drill and Tapcons and wire yesterday. So here goes!

====Cliff


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

to answer the rust question, go to Ace Hardware and get some phosphoric acid. Coat the rebar with it. Any existing rust will turn black, and the remaining will be protected. I would suggest covering the exposed rebar after coating with something to keep the direct weather off, but otherwise no additional coating will be necessary, and removal before the next phase of concrete will not be necessary either. 

Bob C.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I dont know about the acid. But, I was thinking of just simple rustoleum spray paint. When you start next year you wont have worry about taking the coating off.


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

As for the historical society, I wouldn't worry about those guys. Its your railroad, it is for your enjoyment.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that last reminder, Jake. 

Thanks Jake and Bob for the ideas. My thoughts were sort of defaulting toward the Rustoleum, but I didn't know about the phospheric acid, Bob. Here's a product that sounds like what you describe: 

http://www.doitbest.com/Cleaners-Skybryte+Co-model-OSPHO-doitbest-sku-784252.dib 

There's some rust on the rebar now. Maybe both approaches make it inert? 

Anyway, it's nice to have a couple options. Thanks guys 
, 
===Cliff


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Cliff, 

That is the product I was referring to. I just couldn't remember the 'trade' name. I keep it by the gallon for metalwork. 

After it dries, the Ospho makes a great primer. I shoot the Rustoleum/Krylon/whatever directly over the Ospho with good results each time. 

Bob C.


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