# NMRA VS NEM on a Heisler



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I recently acquired a Bachmann Heisler and I love it. After checking for lube and lubing in general according to the directions I popped open the smoke box door and found 2 switches. One is for the smoke and the other switch has 3 positions one spot reads "NMRA std. (national model railroad association?) one position is for garden , center is off. The directions states NMRA or NEM conformance and off but doesn't explain these.
I tried the loco out on my small indoor layout which uses an LGB power pack 1 amp I think and it ran with the switch in both spots. Before I move it to the outdoor layout which uses an aristocraft TE with a 23 volt 12 amp power pack I want to know if I could fry this engine if the switch is in the wrong spot.
The 38 ton Shay has a similar switch with 3 spots, NMRA std. OFF , large scale. 

What is the difference with these positions? 

Thanks in advance for your answers. 
Todd


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OFF is off (ha ha, could not resist) 
NMRA/NEM vs. "garden" refers to which direction the loco moves in reference to the DC polarity on the rails. 

That's all it is... the NMRA specified a standard that was backwards in polarity/motion from what most people were already doing in "garden scale". 

If you run another loco on the same track, then the switch might be of use if the locos do not run in the same direction. 

Regards, Greg


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the answer Greg , 
I might be going out on a limb here but if off is off than does that mean that on is on?? LOL 
Once again us large scale guys are left out of the loop. Not only is our equipment different scales now the polarity of the motors might be different as well. Our hobby is an ever lasting mysterious mind boggling adventure. 
Weird that Bachmann would feel the need to put this switch in to conform to NMRA standards when the standards don't apply to large scale. Nice to have the option though and nice to have the Off switch. Now I may not need to set up a couple of blocks on the layout to park a train on. 
Todd


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By cape cod Todd on 09 Apr 2010 07:53 AM 
Thanks for the answer Greg , 
I might be going out on a limb here but if off is off than does that mean that on is on?? LOL 
Once again us large scale guys are left out of the loop. Not only is our equipment different scales now the polarity of the motors might be different as well. Our hobby is an ever lasting mysterious mind boggling adventure. 
Weird that Bachmann would feel the need to put this switch in to conform to NMRA standards when the standards don't apply to large scale. Nice to have the option though and nice to have the Off switch. Now I may not need to set up a couple of blocks on the layout to park a train on. 
Todd 


Dear Mr Cod - it is my understanding from the late Rolf Richter that Bachmann put that switch there so that folks could run THEIR products with LGB's - at that time the most prolific manufacturer of garden trains in the world - with the trhottle set operating in the same sense. I have two different dates of manufacture Aristocraft AB sets that also run in different directtions. Without re-wiring, I'm just happy to live with it.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Of course, if you convert your engine to r/c battery power you don't _have_ to worry about all of those nasty little polarity issues!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

and, if you're short of those switches, I probably have several boxes full of them. 

Oh, and with the manufacturer in question, "on" doesn't necessarily mean "on".


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## Gary Woolard (Jan 2, 2008)

Okay, the polarity I figured out on my first Annie... and the NMRA.. well heck.

But what the bleep does NEM mean?


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

NEM?? 

I don't have a clue, neither Google or Wikipedia come up with anything that would be relavant.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By George Schreyer on 09 Apr 2010 04:49 PM 
NEM?? 

I don't have a clue, neither Google or Wikipedia come up with anything that would be relavant.


"NEM" stands for "Normen Europäischer Modellbahnen" or 'Standards for European Modeltrains' - these are essentially similar to the NMRA standards but they are much more elaborate and go into more detail.

The organization is called MOROP - their website is here:
http://www.morop.eu/en/idf/index.html

The NEM standards are listed here in German:
http://www.morop.eu/de/normes/index.html

All the NEM standards are available in French and German, the English versions are only available for a very small number of the standards.

It's always interesting to compare NEM and NMRA standards o see where they are the same and where they differ for the same type of standard.

MOROP has NEM standards covering all of 1:22.5 scale, ie scale II (or 2) - 1:22.5 scale equipment running on 45mm track is called IIm, running on 64mm track is called Scale II.
They follow the same pattern of scale designation as for the smaller scales, ie H0m, Nm, etc.

But the same as NMRA, they don't really recognize Large Scale the way we know it, with the high track profile. the large flanges and oif course the DC track polarity backwards from the other scales.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, 

Can you expound on " they don't really recognize Large Scale the way we know it, with the high track profile"? 

They have the deep flanges, and the spec allows REALLY deep flanges... this is the spec that Aristo (in the form of Lewis Polk) is embracing on their new product, or so he has stated several times. 

I looked at the MOROP/NEM standard for wheels and track, you can see how LGB specs came about and flange bearing frogs in switches. 

Regards, Greg


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a minor correction on History 

Both the NEM and NMRA polarity standards date back a long long time likely in the 40s or earlier and long before LGB. Also long before LGB there were other Gauge 1 and Gauge 2 (back then called Gauge 3) locomotives that wired their locomotives to the standard. LGB took a different approach, Bachmanns early locomotives followed the standard. These locomotives ran in the reverse direction to LGBs. Note also the lawsuits in those early days whereLGB claimed Bachmann and Aristocraft were copying their trains and Bachmann sucessfully argued they were simply following the standards. 

To avoid confusion Bachman put in a switch that remains to this day. Most other manufacturers we know of today followed the LGB convention. Not sure if the 1:32 world changed or keep with the standards. 

Today the convention of most of what we in the US know of large scale that is shipped as a DC locomotive follows the LGB convention. Not sure when or if the standards organizations will ever change. 

Stan Ames


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

(Cough!!!) once again Mr Ames -you show that your version of Reality is wildly inaccurate.... *Spur 2* is 64mm , *Gauge 2* is 2 inches. (Henry Greenly "Model Railways page 4 pub.1924). Both *The National 2.5 inch Gauge Association* and *The Gauge '3' Society* operate on track that is 63.5mm. (The N2.5 GA locos pull people the G3S locos pull carriages and wagons). 

The Gauge '3' Society track specs are here: http://www.gauge3.org.uk/technical.html 

regards 

ralph (former Secretary of The Gauge '3' Society and author of most of the "The G3 Technical Manual")


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ummm.... did not see where Stan related gauge 1, 2, or 3 to any track width. 

From my grasp of the English language, he was only talking about track polarity vs. motion. 

Your response is about something not only different, but nothing to do with the topic. 

Is this another "do everything the hard way" comment? 

Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok then.... 

Quote: 

"Gauge 2 (back then called Gauge 3)" 

Unquote: 

See above for the differences between Spur 2, (as defined by NEM), and the Gauge '3' Standard, (as defined by the N2.5GA and the G3S). From a person who is from an organisation that is supposed to set standards.... 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Gotcha on the Gauge 2 then called Gauge 3.... That I saw... 

So, that is the inference that the wrong scales were called out by Stan, because of this single comment? 

I can see your logic, thanks, I did not make that jump. 

Now I am curious, is there more to the story, or was the proper statement "Spur 2", then called "Gauge 3"? 

Thanks, Greg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

There were the original Zero to Five gauges as defined in 1906 

Zero is 32mm with a scale of 7mm to the foot. 
One is 45mm with a scale of 10mm to the foot. 
Two is 50mm with a scale of 7/16ths to the foot. 
Three is 63.5mm with a scale of 13.5mm to the foot. 
Four is 82.5mm to the foot with a scale of 11/16ths to the foot. 
Five is 125mm with a scale of 25mm to the foot. 

Gauge Two fell out of favour with the manufacturers as it was too close to Gauge One and disappeared in the mid wars period. As far as I know there is only one existing Gauge Two layout running in the UK -complete with original clockwork locos. Thus when the large european manufacturers began again after WW2 there was Gauge One which became Spur I, and the next size was Gauge 3 which became Spur II. The Spur II Guppe use a 64mm track as opposed to the pre war 63.5mm track used by both N2.5GA and G3S. The scales are also different. Spur II is 1:22.5 and Gauge '3' is 1:22.6... 

regards 

ralph


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ralph, that's very interesting! 

I'm going to copy this down for future reference... 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 22 Jun 2010 09:17 AM 
There were the original Zero to Five gauges as defined in 1906 

Zero is 32mm with a scale of 7mm to the foot. 
One is 45mm with a scale of 10mm to the foot. 
Two is 50mm with a scale of 7/16ths to the foot. 
Three is 63.5mm with a scale of 13.5mm to the foot. 
Four is 82.5mm to the foot with a scale of 11/16ths to the foot. 
Five is 125mm with a scale of 25mm to the foot. 

Gauge Two fell out of favour with the manufacturers as it was too close to Gauge One and disappeared in the mid wars period. As far as I know there is only one existing Gauge Two layout running in the UK -complete with original clockwork locos. Thus when the large european manufacturers began again after WW2 there was Gauge One which became Spur I, and the next size was Gauge 3 which became Spur II. The Spur II Guppe use a 64mm track as opposed to the pre war 63.5mm track used by both N2.5GA and G3S. The scales are also different. Spur II is 1:22.5 and Gauge '3' is 1:22.6... 

regards 

ralph


You do realize that "Spur" is the German word for gauge, so Spur 2 actually means Gauge 2, it's not some other magical model railroad term.

NEM (check what the acronym means in my post above) covers the European standard which does include the UK.
For all of Europe, Spur or Gauge 2 is 64mm, the UK is somehow an exception.


As to your listing of the five gauges back in 1906, that is probably correct - I don't have my modeltrain history manual handy to check.

But this is more than 100 years later, the NEM scale and gauge standards today are summarized below:
Pretty self explanatory - "Zoll" in the very last line is "inches" in German.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

It is interesting (having totally digressed from the original post but whatever!). I started out in N Gauge where everything was pretty much one size fits all. Then I got into large scale (LOL) and low and behold I had NO concept of what scale vs gauge was. Now I have but a brief insight into it but it amazes me the number of scales within a gauge line with anywhere from 1:20.3 to 1:32. Now I am seeing more and more of various scales on specific gauges. ON30 is now very popular on HO track (not sure what gauge it is). Sorry for the side track.


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