# Long Drill Bit or Something Else??



## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

In the Trestle, track and roadbed forum I have been inquiring about building a ladder system to create a grade on a new addition of my railroad. In the discussion some have mentioned drilling holes in the ground to insert 3/4" PVC pipe for risers as opposed to just pounding them in the ground. What do some of you use to drill the hole a few feet down? I have a nice cordless drill by Craftsman but it's got the regular shaft, etc. Do I need to rent something from Home Depot or other source?

I appreciate any suggestions.

Richard


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I would try a nursery. Look for a auger. There are some that are just a T handle. They might only go down a foot. Then on the other hand you can check Home Depot and rent a post hole digger. Which is a motor driven auger. They one I used years ago toook two people to run it. They have different size augers to fit the post hole digger.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Years ago I bought an auger at a garden store to drill holes for planting tulip bulbs. The diameter of the auger was between 1 and 1.5 inches. I can't find it right now to measure it, but it fit in a craftsman power drill and did a nice job of drilling holes in the ground. I doubt that you could go much deeper than about a foot.

Chuck


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I just unloaded gallons and gallons of pool water by bucket that the regular drain wouldn't get because it was too high. I unloaded all of it on the area where the new expansion is going to take place...it's pretty wet right now so it should be good for a day or too pounding in pipe by hand...only problem I might encounter are the roots of the three redwood trees that are there...oh well!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

How far down you gotta go is dependent on HOW you intend to use the ladder. If you are going the classical ladder set up...you're gonna bury the ladder after it's installed. From my experience, if the supporting posts are a foot down or so BEFORE you back fill against the ladder, you'll be fine. 

Now, if you're using the ladder to make an elevated roadbed, the PVC won't be stiff enough anyway. You'll need to use a much stiffer material for the posts...and really pound em in. 

I'm about 90% done installing my ladder roadbed now...and the roadbed that is only 6" above the soil level is quite firm. The roadbed that is 18" above the soil moves a good deal side to side...but that will end when I back fill.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Mike, I'm just trying to get from ground level to about 11" - 12" rise in a disstance of 42-45 feet. This is approximately a 2% to 2-1/2% grade for a trestle and then crossover right after that. Might even try and have the track go "behind" the waterfall for fun as in Disneyland's Jungle Cruise. Passengers can then see the back side of water







. So my ladder system is not going to be any higher than that. And I'm backfilling the rise with dirt. 

So my guess is that the 3/4" pvc spaced about 2' apart shoud be sturdy enough. I'm going to try and get the risers in the ground about 18". I don't need to worry about ground heave from frost like some. It's pretty mild here in Central California.

BTW...say hello to my wife's Aunt Mary and Uncle Bob there in Escondido!!









Richard


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Richard, 

I’ve used a roto-hammer drill with 18” long bit in soil many a time with excellent results. Your local rental yard will have these items for rent… Up here in Elverta, CA we have a lot of red dirt... 

Michael


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rsmproductions on 30 Jun 2011 01:15 PM 
Mike, I'm just trying to get from ground level to about 11" - 12" rise in a disstance of 42-45 feet. This is approximately a 2% to 2-1/2% grade for a trestle and then crossover right after that. Might even try and have the track go "behind" the waterfall for fun as in Disneyland's Jungle Cruise. Passengers can then see the back side of water







. So my ladder system is not going to be any higher than that. And I'm backfilling the rise with dirt. 

So my guess is that the 3/4" pvc spaced about 2' apart shoud be sturdy enough. I'm going to try and get the risers in the ground about 18". I don't need to worry about ground heave from frost like some. It's pretty mild here in Central California.

BTW...say hello to my wife's Aunt Mary and Uncle Bob there in Escondido!!









Richard

3/4" pipe is NOT large enough...and 2' spacing is pushing it. I've got just about what you described...see below.











I'm using PVC that is 1.75" in outside diameter. The posts are 18" apart. You can see the roadbed that is close to the ground...it's up about 6". The roadbed that has the orange clamp on the end is up about 18" (it will 12" above the finished grade)...and it's wobbly without the earth back fill. After having put in about 280' of roadbed, I'm feel pretty confident that 3/4" PVC would be difficult to use because you need to level the ladder when you put it on the post...and the 3/4" pipe isn't stiff enough. This 1.75" pipe is JUST stiff enough IMHO.

I cut the PVC pipe with a chop saw...and I sand one end at 45 degrees on a disk sander so it has a chisel end. It's quick to do...and it makes hammering the posts in far easier.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing....THIS is the hammer to get. It's a dead blow hammer. It does NOT break the pipe when you hammer on it...whereas (speaking from experience) a normal sledge hammer DOES break the pipe every now and then. I speak from a LOT of experience so far. I have three pound version...but now that I've used it, I'd opt for the 4 pounder.


4 lb dead blow hammer.


Drop me a note if you ever get down here...and we can commiserate over several beers....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Sacred manure Mikey.....Your RR is coming along nicely. 

JJ


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

My father uses a cordless drill with a loooooonnnggg auger bit to drill holes in the snow and ice to set trail closed signs at the ski area he works for part time. I imagine you can find those augers "someplace"? 

When cutting and ounding in the posts? Does one cut them at an angle or simply cut them square? 

Chas


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 01 Jul 2011 07:15 AM 
....

When cutting and ounding in the posts? Does one cut them at an angle or simply cut them square? 

Chas 

For PVC posts...I tried several ways. Blunk, angled, and chiseled. The blunt and angled ends are just different cutting angles on a chop saw. Chiseled means the whole circumference of a blunt end has the edge sanded to a point. The blunt and chiseled work...one is just more effort to pound in. I had about a 80% failure rate on the angled end approach. I had about a 20% failure rate with the blunt end...because you have to pound harder. I rarely broke a post that has a chiseled end...so I figured it was worth the 5 seconds of so it takes to sand each post. 

Well, maybe it was the dead blow hammer too. I was using a regular 4 lb sledge when I started...and angled posts...and like I said, I broke like 80% of them. The dead blow hammer really helps you not break posts.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If you use 3/4 to 1 inch PVD pipe will filling the pipe with mortar make it stiffer? Motar mixed like tomoato soup would pour into th pipe. A round rod could be used to release any air pockets. 

JJ


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm using PVC that is 1.75" in outside diameter. The posts are 18" apart. You can see the roadbed that is close to the ground...it's up about 6". The roadbed that has the orange clamp on the end is up about 18" (it will 12" above the finished grade)...and it's wobbly without the earth back fill. After having put in about 280' of roadbed, I'm feel pretty confident that 3/4" PVC would be difficult to use because you need to level the ladder when you put it on the post...and the 3/4" pipe isn't stiff enough. This 1.75" pipe is JUST stiff enough IMHO. 


Well, Mike...I just returned from HD with the supplies...I did get the 3/4' PVC pipe, but now you are making me revisit that decision...I'll probably take it back and opt for at least the 1-1/2 or 1-3/4 like you've done. I want to do it correctly and with little worry. 

Richard


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Richard, 

Pipe OD's are as follows: 

1/2" Nominal Pipe - 0.84" OD 
3/4" Nominal Pipe - 1.05" OD 
1" Nominal Pipe - 1.315 OD 
1 1/4" Nominal Pipe - 1.66" OD 
1 1/2" Nominal Pipe - 1.90" OD 
2" Nominal Pipe - 2.375" OD 

Personally, I wouldn't use anything smaller than 1 1/2". Yep, it will cost a bit more, but it will be much more stable. 

Good Luck!! 

Bob C.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Taking the 3/4" PVC pipe back to HD today and getting the 1-1/2" instad for the posts. Also heading to the Harbor Freight in Fresno to pick up the orange (cute color) hammer that Mike spoke of...

Should be ready to begin the expansion fairly quickly...it's beginning to get hot again...105 +. So I may have get up early in the morning to do a little at a time. Will post pictures of the process as it progresses.

Richard


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By rsmproductions on 02 Jul 2011 12:55 PM 
Taking the 3/4" PVC pipe back to HD today and getting the 1-1/2" instad for the posts. Also heading to the Harbor Freight in Fresno to pick up the orange (cute color) hammer that Mike spoke of...

Should be ready to begin the expansion fairly quickly...it's beginning to get hot again...105 +. So I may have get up early in the morning to do a little at a time. Will post pictures of the process as it progresses.

Richard


The Hammer is orange so when you smak your thumb and drop the hammer it don't get lost in the grass.










JJ


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, that wooden jig that is sitting on the wall in front of my layout is the jig I make the ladder roadbed in...and it's well worth the time constructing one. The little 1/2"x1/2"x1.5" pairs of wood are nailed/glued to the upright 2x6. They are spaced to hold the redwood dividers that go between the two side pieces on the ladder. I cut a bucket full of the blocks from 2x2 redwood, place them in the jig...and lay a piece of the side board over them and push it up against the 2x6. Then I just go down the jig with my screw gun. When I'm done...I lift the whole assembly off the jig and move it down till the last block fits in the last guide...put in more blocks...and screw em in. Takes only a few minutes to do each 20' ladder segment. The other side is screwed on after it's been clamped to the post.


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Mike, 

Yes, I was going to ask you about the jig. It looks really nice and I can see how the time building one will be well spent. It looks like your spacers are about 6" - 8" apart...is this correct? 

BTW I did return the 3/4" PVC pipe and upgraded to the 1-1/2". A bit more expensive but the extra cost will pay for itself in sturdiness. Also have the bright orange hammer from Harbor Freight. All of the other materials are on the side of the house awaiting to be constructed. Just need to convince the weather to cool down a bit. Today is supposed to be 106...whew!! 

Hope to get an early start tomorrow morning after today's Fourth of July festivities... 

Richard


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

They are 9" apart...that way doing 18" spacing of the posts was easy.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Now, wait just a cotton picking minute here. How is the shipping weight for a 4 pound dead blow hammer 3.75 pounds?


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I too picked up 1 1/2 inch PVC and a Dead Blow hammer on Saturday. Spent a good share of yesterday morning plucking weeds out of where the roadbed will go. That has been built for several months and moved a few too many times now. I also built a "jig" but mine was not so complex. Mine has a 2 station set up. One spot open for the spacer block that was screwed in previously and another to hold the block you are currently screwing in. Screw advance the strip and relaod a new block. That way the box of spacers (pre cut from 1 1/2" square PVC trim board from HD) the box of screws the jig and the screw gun are all in one place and the work piece moves. MY bad was to try to get the roadbed to match the sectional track AND to stagger the joints on the PVC trim board I used for the sides of the ladder. I had a joint on the apex of the 8 foot diameter curves with a section of PT lumber that is NOT large enough to span the joint. I need to address that before I stake the roadbed down. I'm hoping to get to it this week. This weekend is shot though with a picnic during the day Saturday. Dropping the kids off to spend the night with my father and step mother for their first overnight with them, and then tickets to a concert in Niagara Falls Saturday evening and a kid & mother free night with my wife. 

Chas


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Chas, I would definitely make sure the wife is priority with everyone gone. If she's like mine, she's not only worth it but also gives the ok on any future train decisions







.

I'm going to build a jig out of some wood I have lying a round the house. I think will be such a tremendous help in bulding the ladder. I'm not too worried about making suring the joints are lined up...I'm trusting everyones praise of the Train-Li dual rail bender and going to create my curves freelly with the ladder and then bend the rail to fit. 

My challenge is to get out and do it in this heat we are experiencing...I need the ladder system in place so I can move a pile of dirt sitting on my driveway so I can get my travel trailer out from the back to go camping next week.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

You could do what John J does...set up the halogen worklights and work at night time doing the heavy outdoor work? Thereby avoiding the heat of the day....of course that is if the neighbors do not object. 

Chas


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

Chas,

I actually did that about 3-1/2 years ago while building the original loop of mainline to be completed in time for my son's 1st birthday party. And not a bad idea now, so thanks for the suggestion.

It's also supposed to be a bit humid with current cloud cover overhead...oh well...I need to lose some weight...so I'll just sweat it off







. I do hope that my UV replacement light for my bug light comes in from Amazon quickly...It works really well, and the new one I bought at HD seems worthless. Just found a case of West Nile in Selma which is near here so am not interested in being bit by hungry mosquitoes.

Richard


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I got chased inside last night by the bugs...we've had reported cases of WNV in this area for years but the mosquitoes are not too bad so far this season. Got one of the pieces of PVC cut before I could not take the feeling of crawling bugs all over me...ugh. Power tools and swatting at bugs DO NOT go together. Hoping to get some mulch tonight on the way home. Later this week will be the crusher fines. 

Chas


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## rsmproductions (Jan 5, 2008)

I was remanded to my studio to try and get further along on a musical soundtrack I've begun yesterday, so I didn't get out either. The good news is my replacement bug light came in from Amazon so I got that thing fired up and right away it was zapping those little pesky creatures. I will try to brave the heat this morning although it's warm and humid already and it's not even 7:30 AM yet. Camping trip next Tuesday is looming closer and I have a ton of fill dirt right in the path of my travel trailer...got to get it done. Guess I'll work by moving a small boulder and some brick to clear an area and then turn my sights to building the jig. 

Later, 
Richard


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