# Heisler in 1:20.3



## GauchoGrad (Jun 25, 2010)

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone knew of a current manufacturer of a Heisler? I know Accucraft made one some time ago from what I've been able to tell via google. Also, I figured if there wasn't one available rtr I could make my own but ran into some road blocks there too. Anyone know of a place to buy boilers? I would make my own but frankly I don't trust my ability enough to avoid an explosion, especially since I've never made one before. I would also need to get some pistons, etc. I know you can make those as well but anything that I could get 'off the shelf' would be great.

Thanks!

-Tim


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Tim, Accucraft never made a Heisler. In live steam that is. Mike Chaney made one for the Catatonk brand. Best wishes from TOkyo, Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It's highly unlikely that you could get a boiler explosion in 1:20.3 - the worst that could probably happen is that a seam would split and there would be a large steam leak. Generally speaking, boilers of this size just don't have the volume necessary to explode. There was a video floating around a while back of some dumbass that took a propane torch to a small commercial stationary boiler. There was a major rupture and the boiler was propelled across the room at high velocity, definitely not a pretty situation! However, even that didn't cause an "explosion" which generally indicates fragmentation. Additionally, many of those small boilers are soft-soldered together. Even then, it took major abuse to cause such a rupture, and such would be unlikely in a properly constructed boiler using high-temp silver solder and a proper burner. 

Accucraft did make two Heislers that were electric powered. A live steam version of the second one has been on the books for years, but so far they haven't built it.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dwight, live steam version of WSL Heisler will not happen until Accucraft will learn to make tapered boilers. The same concerns WSL Shays. This is a major obstacle and with so many straight boiler engines in the pipeline and new possible projects, I begin to doubt that we will ever happen to see one of these splendid engines: WSL #2,#3 or #14,#15, etc. So if anyone has an affordable technological solution please go and talk to Mr Bing. Best, Zubi


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

It's a great shame that there is no large-scale commercial model of the Heisler locomotive. Mr Chaney's beautiful product is a rare beast indeed, too rare for me every to have seen one, that's for sure. With the imminent arrival [rpobably] of AccuCraft's fine-looking Climax, and the two Shay's they already HAVE built, a Heisler might be a long way down the line, but it seems short-sighted NOT to build one. 

A plastic Heisler [yes I have one] can never be anything more than a substitute for a real clonking steamie [IMO]... 

Mind you, the OP's plans to build one from scratch, never having built anything before, is ambitious to say the least. The boiler is the least of his problems, mind you, since here in UK Roundhouse Engineering make and sell a suitable boiler with fittings for a 1/20.3 Heisler. Good price too, and you gentlemen don't have to pay our swingeing [NEW] 20% sales tax, either. Building the gearbox, drive train and valve gear could be more than a little interesting. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By zubi on 26 Jun 2010 02:30 AM 
Dwight, live steam version of WSL Heisler will not happen until Accucraft will learn to make tapered boilers. The same concerns WSL Shays. This is a major obstacle and with so many straight boiler engines in the pipeline and new possible projects, I begin to doubt that we will ever happen to see one of these splendid engines: WSL #2,#3 or #14,#15, etc. So if anyone has an affordable technological solution please go and talk to Mr Bing. Best, Zubi Zubi - that's an easy one - they already build a cosmetically-tapered boiler for the older style 'General' locomotives. With low technology as a basis, building the same shape boiler for a Heisler should present no problems...

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi - As Tac says, I suspect that they would use a straight boiler and fabricate the prototype config in the jacket much as they do with their older wagon top boilers on the 4-4-0. Another option would be a stepped boiler inside a prototypically tapered jacket, again, not all that technologically difficult. 

From the conversations I've had with Bing, I believe it has more to do with marketing, and how many he thinks he could sell. While I don't have the stats, I'm not sure all that many electric Heislers were sold. I certainly don't see very many of them, and that includes in all the photos people publish both online and in print.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 26 Jun 2010 07:03 AM 
Zubi - As Tac says, I suspect that they would use a straight boiler and fabricate the prototype config in the jacket much as they do with their older wagon top boilers on the 4-4-0. Another option would be a stepped boiler inside a prototypically tapered jacket, again, not all that technologically difficult. 

From the conversations I've had with Bing, I believe it has more to do with marketing, and how many he thinks he could sell. While I don't have the stats, I'm not sure all that many electric Heislers were sold. I certainly don't see very many of them, and that includes in all the photos people publish both online and in print. Dwight, I hafta say that there seems to have been a bit of clamouring for a live steam Heisler for quite a while now, notwithstanding that Mr Cheng is reluctant to commit himself. A full 'set' of the most popular geared locos must be the dream of many of us live-steamers. Being well-acquainted with the Heisler that runs along the shore from Garibaldi to Wheeler, via Rockaway Beach in Tillamook County OR, I must say that copying almost any extant and running loco would be a welcome thing. As anyone who has seen one in action will readily concur, the Heisler has a sight and sound all of its own.

Why not let us start a poll on it?

Paws up who would buy a Heisler?

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with you Tac. I think a live steam Heisler would sell well, but then again, I don't run Accucraft. I would particularly love to have a live steam WSLCo #3 as I've ridden behind that locomotive many times at Roaring Camp. I would certainly buy her is Accucraft decided to make her! I would also buy a WSLCo #2 in live steam, which they also produced as a sparkie. 












I am one of the lucky few who owns a Catatonk Heisler. She needs some work (on my list of "things to do"). Her forward drive line is slipping in the U-joint and I'd like to make some new U-joints. I'd also like to re-gear her as her running characteristics would benefit greatly from lower gearing. She also needs a little cosmetic work and a new paint job. 

So many projects, so little time.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight - check out Brian McCamish's fantastic website including the Oregon Coast Scenic RR Heisler - 28 minutes long with a cab-ride too! 

http://www.brian894x4.com/RRvideos.html 

Sadly, he hasn't updated the site now for a couple of years, but it's really worth a visit, or ten. There's a total of about fifteen hours of professionally-produced high quality videos onstream. Even the Sumpter Valley and various Colorado scene are there, too. 

Best 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By tacfoley on 26 Jun 2010 02:48 AM Zubi - that's an easy one - they already build a cosmetically-tapered boiler for the older style 'General' locomotives. With low technology as a basis, building the same shape boiler for a Heisler should present no problems...

Best
tac


Terry, don't encourage them!! Please!!! That would look just too awful... Much worse than on the 4-4-0's which are pretty bad already... No, no, no..., that is just not possible... BTW has anyone got an Aster Shay boiler to show us a photo? Best, Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

There ya go again - wanting an Aster locomotive for an Accucraft price.







Ain't gonna happen, nor should it.

Tac - I watched part of the video. I'll watch it all when I have more time. Thanks for the link.


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## Engineer Larry (Jun 2, 2009)

Tim,

One of our hobbys' master craftsman, Ed Hume, built both the Climax and Heisler locomotives in Gauge 1. They were built from plans in Kozo Hiraoka's books, scaled down from the original 3/4" plans. Here he is on his _Flikr_ site with the locomotives, including his Gauge 1 version of Kozo's Pennsy A3 switcher: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhume3/3075097144/


Here is a set showing the construction of the Heisler: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhume...966340093/


A very well done, and complete set on the Climax: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhume...964223180/ 


The Climax boiler got a very good, step-by-step treatment: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhume...664938888/ 


To think that Ed had never done any machine work before constucting these locomotives, is a testament to what patience and perseverance 
can accomplish. Anyone can build one of these engines. Kozo's books contain a wealth of information on machining practices, 

and silver brazing techniques, and are worth the price even if you do not build one of his locos. 


Larry

Gauge 1_ Dacre _in progress


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Beautiful work indeed. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 26 Jun 2010 12:12 PM 
There ya go again - wanting an Aster locomotive for an Accucraft price.







Ain't gonna happen, nor should it.


??? Dwight, I did not mention the word 'Accucraft price'... But I did mentioned 'affordable'. We all know that anything more complicated that a single flue boiler from a straight copper pipe with essentially no fittings is going to cost more. What is an Accucraft price anyway? Best, Zubi
PS this is a indeed a beautiful example of a tapered boiler, I hope Ed could provide us with some info as to the difficulty of making one and the additional costs involved... http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/886563564_0b9a301390_b.jpg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

What is an Accucraft price anyway?Affordable.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dwight, It seems we are going in circles. Yes, that is exactly what I said: "So if anyone has an affordable technological solution (for a tapered boiler) please go and talk to Mr Bing". Nowhere, I wrote Accucraft please make for us Aster boiler. Actually, I would still like to see that Shay boiler from Aster 3 truck shay to have a reference point, and to think about technological approach to make an affordable alternative. A stepped boiler cannot be considerably cheaper than a tapered version, the amount of soldering is the same or even more on stepped version! Anyway, now I already have a good reference in the boiler by Ed Hume, it looks beautiful and I guess in gas fired (not coal) version it could still be made at an affordable price. Anyway, I have Hiraoka-san's book (he most kindly presented it to me with a beautiful autograph) and I know him personally so I can discuss this matter with him at some point. Best, Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps you should construct one and gain first-hand experience in what's involved. I'm sure we'd all love to see photos of it as it progresses. 

Having studied Kozo's Heisler boiler plans (at one time I considered building one - perhaps I still will someday), the additional seam work for the transition piece along with the internal reinforcements for same add considerable fabrication work compared to a straight piece of pipe with end pieces and a flue, and would have to add to the final cost. The same can be said for a stepped boiler, though here much of the internal reinforcement piece fabrication is unnecessary as the parts themselves can be flanged/stamped. Heck, in his 1-1/2" scale steel boiler, even Kozo recommends a stepped design to simplify construction. 

At any rate, I'm not such a purist that a straight boiler inside a prototypically shaped jacket would offend me. I'd be happy just to have a WSLCo #3 Heisler at a reasonable price so long as it performs as well as other Accucraft locos, but that's just me. To each his own I guess.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Me too, I'd love WSL #3 and the WSL Shays #14, 15 or 12. Well, it should happen one day, the question is when that day will be... 2015 if we are very very lucky? More like 2020, if we are realistic... Zubi


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

The economy may have to pick up first, and given current trends and indicators, we may well be on the way to the second dip.







For the Heisler though, it could be sooner than you think.


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd agree with the sentiment that what drives the choice of what Accucraft (or any other manufacturer) will introduce is how many of 'em they think they'll be able to sell (choice of words here is deliberate). Exhibit A is the approach AC has taken with the new Climax -- "Production Limited To Reservations". While the Shays have been in nearly continuous production for a while, for some reason the Accucrafters don't have the same confidence in the saleability of other geared engine types. 
Same thing may hold true for rod engines, in their choice of Western versus Eastern (U.S.) prototypes, both standard and narrow gauge. 

Maybe they've hired some marketing analyst who's guiding product choice. Maybe it's just personal preference -- it wouldn't be the first time a loco builder got into the business because they wanted to build themselves a favorite engine.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhume...962292344/

Check this out for d Humes Heisler


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Several years ago Accucraft took a survey at Diamondhead as to what locomotives people would like to see manufactured. The WSLCo. #15 was far and away the hands down winner with the most requests!


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Shay Gear Head on 27 Jun 2010 02:28 PM 
Several years ago Accucraft took a survey at Diamondhead as to what locomotives people would like to see manufactured. The WSLCo. #15 was far and away the hands down winner with the most requests!

...and of course we're all REALLY impressed with the results of THAT little exercise in futility. 
tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

OTOH, consider the Mason Bogie currently in production or the 4-4-0. Both of those were built in response to popular request (and in the case of the 4-4-0, an organization - Carolwood - who placed a firm order for a set number of units). Both of these locomotives got their start right here on MLS. 

I've *created a poll* for the WSLCo Live Steam Heisler. Vote Yes if you'd buy one. Perhaps if we can get some real numbers, Accucraft will take note as has happened in the past.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the only thing about the WSL Heisler or Shay that will hinder sales is its cost. I think the Shay was 4000 and the Heisler was 3000 in electric. The cost probally would be about 3500-4000 for the heisler. Not sure how many people would be willing tom shell it out now. The Shay Cliff said would be upwards of 5000 in past conversations.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 27 Jun 2010 05:53 PM 
I think the only thing about the WSL Heisler or Shay that will hinder sales is its cost. I think the Shay was 4000 and the Heisler was 3000 in electric. The cost probally would be about 3500-4000 for the heisler. Not sure how many people would be willing tom shell it out now. The Shay Cliff said would be upwards of 5000 in past conversations. Sir - with respect, I don't believe that for most who post on the live steam forum that money is an issue that overly concerns them. With the original price of the two and three cylinder Shays substantially under $2000 - enough to buy at least half a dozen sets of AccuCraf's skeleton log cars, I don't see where the $5000 cost of even the WSL three-truck Shay could be justified. The fact is that the electric WSL Shay is a visually perfect scale model, with a complete replication of the complex Stephenson valve gear of the original, wherea,s as I'm certain you know, the two and three- cylinder Shays are simply 'Ruby's' turned on their side with very simple eccentric valve gear. Even with rising Chinese costs, I would be amazed it a steam WSL Shay hit the $4000 mark.

For many on this forum that is pocket change.

My $0.02

Best

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

The Poison Creek Heisler produced by Jim Hadden is the answer to the question , but not yet mentioned in this thread. It is a master work and looks perfect on the rails.


Jerry


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## wetrail (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know how this message became so garbled ,but such is life. The bottom lines arew aht I meant to say.

Jerry


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like perhaps you wrote it in MS Word or another program, then copied and pasted it into MLS. Anyway, I fixed it.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

TAC - As I stated in my post those prices are the estimates that came from a conversation with Accucraft. And I dont think if they did a WSL Shay that it would be a ruby based motor.


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## GauchoGrad (Jun 25, 2010)

Hey guys,

thanks for all the replies. I haven't been back online until now. It is rather a shame that it wasn't live steam  Good to know though about all the other stuff. I think the Heisler would be a tough project too but that is why I want to try it 


@ Larry: Thanks for the posts about the plans for those locos too. It is also good to know I am not the only 'newbie' who decided to start a project, lol


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

.


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## highpressure (Jan 2, 2008)

It looks like Chris is at a loss for word's.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Another option of to purchase one of the Accucraft Heislers and use its gear train and superstruction and build off of it the working morot and slip a boiler inside the jacket. It is designed completly hollow to install a boiler into.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By highpressure on 28 Jun 2010 06:24 PM 
It looks like Chris is at a loss for word's.


We all have our moments. 


Carpe Diem...


About that boiler shape thing.


I'm not saying or implying there is any practicality in our chosen hobby, but... What possible practical value is there in a stepped or tapered boiler? 

I'll concede, there's an extra couple ounces of water.









But for all the practical problems, take a look at the most obvious. Without raising the roof the water filler, site glass and other fittings would have to be cut through and be above the roof top. There's always raising the roof I suppose. But if a boiler shape causes you problems an out-of-scale cab let alone the whole loco would probably cause considerable cardiac arrest. Ok, you say, "...they can just change all the boiler backhead and cab fittings to fit the shaped boiler." It's pretty well accepted a common and very significant cost control management methodology is standardizing (boiler) design elements across as many products as possible. So that would be a good one to toss in the crapper right off the bat. Thoughts that just changing the boiler is merely a couple added solder joints is a bit off the mark. 


At 3-5ft no one can tell if it's a stepped, tapered or straight boiler or not, save telepathy with the locomotive. Yes, I know, there are those who say it's widely practiced - I'm skeptical, I think it's the drink.








Forgetaboutit! Put a standard Accucraft power plant in the previous Heisler shell if you want your Heisler before 2100.


IMHO.










Good luck.











Carpe Diem - "seize the day"


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

hmmmmmmmmmmm. could just be.......

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not saying or implying there is any practicality in our chosen hobby, but... What possible practical value is there in a stepped or tapered boiler? 

I'll concede, there's an extra couple ounces of water. 

But for all the practical problems, take a look at the most obvious. Without raising the roof the water filler, site glass and other fittings would have to be cut through and be above the roof top. There's always raising the roof I suppose. But if a boiler shape causes you problems an out-of-scale cab let alone the whole loco would probably cause considerable cardiac arrest. Ok, you say, "...they can just change all the boiler backhead and cab fittings to fit the shaped boiler." It's pretty well accepted a common and very significant cost control management methodology is standardizing (boiler) design elements across as many products as possible. So that would be a good one to toss in the crapper right off the bat. Thoughts that just changing the boiler is merely a couple added solder joints is a bit off the mark. 
At 3-5ft no one can tell if it's a stepped, tapered or straight boiler or not, save telepathy with the locomotive. Yes, I know, there are those who say it's widely practiced - I'm skeptical, I think it's the drink. 
Forgetaboutit! Put a standard Accucraft power plant in the previous Heisler shell if you want your Heisler before 2100.I agree completely.


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

For the record, I would sell one one or both of my kidneys for ANY WSLCo 3-truck shay in live steam.

It seems that I have talked to a number of live steamers that would kill for #15. They haven't bought Accucraft's current offering because... it's ELECTRIC! I know I'm one of those people that won't buy simply because I don't want an electric model. I want one that actually boils water.
I wonder if it would have been successful had they made the live steam version first.
Thoughts?


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

If the WSLCo 3-truck Shay sold several years back for $4000.00 as an electric, I doubt a live steam version could be made for under around $5000.00 in today's currency. I also seriously doubt that Accucraft would use piston valves on it. If people were paying $4-$5 grand for a loco, they would demand slide valves, perhaps axle pumps, and most likely a host of other features. T'would be cool though!!


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

5000 will buy you the Aster Shay, if you are patient and look dilligently. You can buy them for 6000 without looking or patience. Of course, its not WSLC #15 but a mainline western Maryland shay. 

Still, thats a pretty good deal.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John Allman on 30 Jun 2010 09:38 AM 
5000 will buy you the Aster Shay, if you are patient and look dilligently. You can buy them for 6000 without looking or patience. Of course, its not WSLC #15 but a mainline western Maryland shay. 

Still, thats a pretty good deal. 
Save the Aster is 1:22.5 and methfired. I (we ?) want a gas fired 1:20 scale WSLCO Shay #15 3-Truck Shay the same as Accucraft's 2-Truck Shays.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Chris Scott on 30 Jun 2010 10:12 AM 
Posted By John Allman on 30 Jun 2010 09:38 AM 
5000 will buy you the Aster Shay, if you are patient and look dilligently. You can buy them for 6000 without looking or patience. Of course, its not WSLC #15 but a mainline western Maryland shay. 

Still, thats a pretty good deal. 
Save the Aster is 1:22.5 and methfired. I (we ?) want a gas fired 1:20 scale WSLCO Shay #15 3-Truck Shay the same as Accucraft's 2-Truck Shays. 

Chris
John referred to the WM Shay which is a 1:32 gas fired locomotive not the Alishan Shay


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

thanks Charles, that is exactly what I meant. The Allison shay is no more than half the price of the Western Maryland Shay. And I should add that the WM Shay is the strongest puller I have ever seen, my H8 included. Your milage may vary, but that has been my experience.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John Allman on 30 Jun 2010 12:31 PM 
thanks Charles, that is exactly what I meant. The Allison shay is no more than half the price of the Western Maryland Shay. And I should add that the WM Shay is the strongest puller I have ever seen, my H8 included. Your milage may vary, but that has been my experience. 
John
I agree that the WM Shay is an excellent engine one that we can comfortably put 80 cars behind and take on the I&EW grade:

















Hoping that all those fellow hobbyists get their wish for geared locomotive production so they can enjoy live steam versions.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Charles on 30 Jun 2010 12:48 PM 
[...] 
Hoping that all those fellow hobbyists get their wish for geared locomotive production so they can enjoy live steam versions. 
Charles, of course one such geared production is the new Alishan Shay, see this thread for more info: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/116107/afv/topic/Default.aspx
You will probably hear more about this during your Yokohama visit, Best, ZUbi


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 30 Jun 2010 11:03 AM 
Posted By Chris Scott on 30 Jun 2010 10:12 AM 
Posted By John Allman on 30 Jun 2010 09:38 AM 
5000 will buy you the Aster Shay, if you are patient and look dilligently. You can buy them for 6000 without looking or patience. Of course, its not WSLC #15 but a mainline western Maryland shay

Still, thats a pretty good deal. 
Save the Aster is 1:22.5 and methfired. I (we ?) want a gas fired 1:20 scale WSLCO Shay #15 3-Truck Shay the same as Accucraft's 2-Truck Shays. 

Chris
John referred to the WM Shay which is a 1:32 gas fired locomotive not the Alishan Shay 





Fair points. However I think the heart of the matter seems the same:

_The Aster WM Shay is 1:32 scale and gas fired. I (we ?) want a gas fired 1:20 scale WSLCO Shay #15 3-Truck Shay the same scale as Accucraft's 2-Truck Shays._ 


The big plus, the WSLCO Shay #15 is the companion to Accucraft's two current 2-Truck Shays. The combinations, either double or triple headed, will look really, really cool !


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