# Help needed on R/C choice



## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Guy's,

  The better half said if you want a K 27 get it, If I do it will be battery r/c. As I have no experience with battery or r/c I thought it wise to ask those of you that do use r/c, which you prefer RCS or Airwire. I have checked both of the MLS battery forum's and it seems to me there are more issues with airwire than rcs. 
  I'm not trying to start a royal battle over which system is better or best but  to hear some opinions pro and con of users of both products.
  I intend to run steam  locos from 1875 to 1910  maybe a double header now and then.
  Thanks in advance for any help.
  chuckger


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I will not comment on the RCS as I have a couple of units....but what I will say is I have 8 Airwire decoders and 2 T9000 hand helds.

The only thing that can be considered a problem with the Airwire, is in the evening the train will occasionally momenterily stop then start againl    for me that is not a problem!
Just change frequency that should help....you have 7 to choose from.

Al at CVP is suppose to be comming out with a unit that will be able to handle up to 24 volts, I think it is 24 volts without having to split the power and use a 12 volt regulater for the DCC side.

So for my needs I will always use the Airwire board, BUT the RCS and the Aristo TE are a viable form of R/C control.

I can select any engine and control it with out changing anything except the loco #...the hand held is very user friendly!

I am not bashing any brand as they are suited for various needs, and likes and disslikes..BUT i really like the Airwire.

Bubba


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Great answer Bubba. I have never had the interferrance problem with the AirWire but I do agtree with your other comments. AirWire is nto the cheapest way to go but I think it is the most flexable and one of the easiest to install.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a A/W and have had no problems with it.  But I do like the small pocket size transmitter of the RCS.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

I have been an RCS user from Day 1, I will continue with them, and sing their praises every chance I get. 

I have never had the 1st problem with my RCS units, and the Customer Service (Tony and Dave) is above any I have received from any other provider in any other field-period. 

I've never used the AW brand, so I cannot offer any help there, but I really do LOVE my RCS! 

* In addition, and maybe most importantly, RCS is currently the only manf that can provide you a real Plug and Play interface for the K---that speaks volumes in itself.  *

A real P-n-P would deff help with the install part of things!   you can see it here

cale


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Short and sweet,,,,,,,Airwire. I have a Bachmann Connie with Airwire and I just received a Accu C19 and I'm having Airwire installed in that engine.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuckger, 

I have an RCS and I'm very happy with it. The antenna is wired to the rail pickup, so I can put my transmitter close to the nearest rail and get a very long range on a ground-level layout. 

That being said, my pals are all Airwire and they claim it is the greatest - probably because it is DCC-like and has lotsa functions a good range. (Be interesting to see what the other guys say...)


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

RCS. I did my research and decided to go that route and I have never had any regrets. Of course, I don't do the "electronic thing" ("A man's got to know his limitations" - Clint Eastwood) so I found someone that I trust to do the job right - Dave Goodson at Northwest Remote Control Systems (NWRCS)! I have _never_ had a problem that wasn't easily correctable. In fact, the only one was with the K-27 and it was a broken connection due to rough handling during shipping and not even an RCS installation part! Dave quickly helped me identify the problem and we fixed it all with very little fuss! I can't say how much I appreciate Dave and RCS other than to say the K-27 was my _sixth_ engine! I don't have any experience with Airwire so I can't help with the comparison. The only thing I will add is "Bravo! You are making the right choice by deciding to go r/c battery!"/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

You want a T-Bone or a KC Strip, either is a great choice. I'm RCS and love it. Tony and Dave are wonderful communicators and have been very helpful, though I haven't needed all that much help. I enjoy computers and programing but when it comes to trains I want to enjoy the trains. RCS seemed the most "transparent" of the available control systems for battery. Wouldn't change.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I love the 900 MHZ antenna length of the Airwire, and the control range is excellent (as long as you don't want to trigger a Phoenix 2K2). But just yesterday I removed my Airwire R/C system from my Bachmann Annie. My layout has 3% grades up and down, and for some reason the Airwire can't handle that. At a fixed speed setting, it won't make it around the loop unless it is running at "Lionel" speeds. It either stalls out on the curves and grades, or races down the hill like a roller coaster. The same loco running on Ariso-Craft Trackside Train Engineer will run all day long, up and down the hills at a fixed speed setting. This time I installed one of my "Critter Controls" (that's a 0 MHZ hands-on control system), and it runs just fine, nice and steady, at a fixed speed setting all the way around the layout. And this is without any sort of back emf control. I know everybody loves the Airwire, and I would recommend you buy one and try it for yourself. It just doesn't seem to work at my house.

I have never tried RCS, so can't comment.

I have friends with Loco-Link, and wouldn't recommend that. Hard to get parts for some reason; fairly large clunky transmitter, although they do offer back-emf control!

Supposedlly, Aristo-Craft is coming out with a 900 MHZ or 2 GHZ or something system? I just went to the A/C site to check this. Couldn't find anything off-hand, but ran into a post about a new trailing car from A/C that has a Trackside TE in it and a Lithium-Ion battery? That sounds interesting. CCSI: The trackside Train Engineer is used by many folks as an on-board radio control system. Kind of a big and clunky board, but mounted in a trailing car, there is plenty of room.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 03/27/2008 3:32 PM
The only thing I will add is "Bravo! You are making the right choice by deciding to go r/c battery!"/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif

Amen, and Amen!

The Chief


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

I did some research  on what would work for me, asked a lot of questions, and went with RCS , went through Don Sweet and could not be more happy with the service( i am not to electrical friendly) and the way it works, my last engine i also put in a Dallee sound system and was very happy with it. Don was very helpful with all my questions, and I had a lot. Very happy with RCS.

Tomh


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I know for a fact that Jim Carter (pimanjc) has had RCS as well as using trackside TE's in his trains and I think he's now dabbling with Airwire as well! Jim would be an excellent source for comparative information! He's on the chat nearly every night. I'll steer him to this thread. In fact, come to think of it, Jim is going to be giving a r/c seminar at one of our WAGRS meetings and I am supposed to supply a couple of RCS locomotives! We will be demonstrating as many of the different r/c systems as we can get to the meeting! Many in our club use Loco-linc so we will also have that system as well! It should be a fascinating discussion! In addition to the systems, we will be demonstrating the various sound systems and we will be going over the various batteries that can be utilized. We will have the meeting at Jim's place so we will have his layout to run all of these systems on! I'm looking forward to it!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't think you'd go wrong with either of those.


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## thespottedcat (Jan 2, 2008)

RCS all the way!!
I did my first install on a LGB 0-4-0 and was able to cram all the bits inside, plus the batteries. Tony was very helpful and it was easy to do.
I get great range, and the Transmitter fits in my shirt pocket. 
All in all, I wouldn't use anything else
Stan


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't want to take over Chucks topic, and I don't have any battery at present, just DCC, but someday I will try battery, so i'm very interested in this topic. It seems most are happy with what they have. Chuck did not want to start a war and I don't either, but I'm curious about comparing features of each? Does each work with the most popular sound systems, like Phoenix, etc.? How many functions can each trigger? Do they have lighting features similar to what DCC offers? What about power, which ones work with higher volts, say 19 or higher? How easy is each to install? What types of batteries does each work with?


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Guy's,

  First I would like to thank everyone who posted to my request for R/C help. Went to the ECLSTS yesterday and after much thinking, trying to decide, more or less wasting a lot of time, and with some encouragement from my good buddy Ron I came home with a Southern Rio Grand #455 K27. This one has the plow and std. gauge cab, someone said it's the post wreck model.
 We stoped at Don Sweet's booth {RCS} he had a k there set up with the plug in board, batteries and sierra sound. The sound was great, wistle, bell, steam blow down, water going in to tender, the sound when it was running was nice and heavy, deep and throaty, its hard to discribe, but to me the sound matched the size of the engine very well.
  Jimtyp, If you check over on LSC Tony Walsham has posted pics of the battery install he did on a K27 , I think he used AA battery packs.

  chuckger


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Chuck.

Good luck with your enquiries.

I tried to publish that K-27 installation article here at MLS as well.  Unfortunately I could not get it to load.  I don't know why.  The old MLS forums never gave a me a problem in the past.
BTW I used 2400 mah SubC NiCd packs.

Jim.
As yet RCS & EVO battery R/C systems are *not *compatible with any DCC controls.
RCS & EVO work with pretty well all sound systems such as Phoenix P2k2, P5+P5t, Dallee, Sierra and MyLocosound.
I make a number of different control systems and the parts required to operate sound triggers will vary depending on which sound and which control system
The problem we had in the past interfacing with Phoenix was overcome by reprogramming the DCC address to zero and disabling all the DCC functions.  Now they work just fine with RCS and EVO.

All RCS systems have three sound system triggers built in with the option of adding 8 more.  All of which can be accessed from the TX-24 handpiece.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

Click Here for the Link to the RCS Bachmann K PnP Install by Tony Walshman

The Chief


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

You pays your money and takes your choice. Both AW and RCS are great. 
I use AW as do most of the RC guys in our club. 
AW works so wonderfully with Px P5 sound systems, as well. 
Just my 2 cents worth.


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## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

I use Aw and have been very happy with it so far. In the past I have used locolinc and TE. of the three I find the airwire to be the best all around. My grades are 2% or less and have no runaway problems with AW. I have no experience with RCS but would consider it worth a look.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I have airwire, locolinc and RCS.  All have their good points.

Airwire can be controlled from down the street which is a nice feature.  However, I have found that if you have any grades in your track, then Airwire can be problematic.  It will slow down on the uphill and surge on the down hill unless you constantly adjust the transmitter.  I find that to be very troublesome, especially if I just want to run a train and forget about it.

RCS does not seem to have that problem.  I can start my Shay and run it and it will run about the same speed both uphill and downhill.  The problem with RCS is that there is very limited reception.  You have to be within about 15 feet of the engine in order to control it.  That may not be a problem to people who want to follow their trains around the layout.  Actually, I do like RCS because I can set a speed and just about forget about it.  I am having a Connie converted right now and I am  hoping that it operates the same as the Shay.  If so, I will be very happy with the RCS.

Locolinc was my original choice.  It has probably the worst reception of them all.  The main thing I do not like is that I also had Soundlinc installed in my engines and I am very unhappy with that sound system.  The exception is the bell is just beautiful on the Soundlinc.

The airwire engine ( a Bachmann Annie) has Phoenix P5 installed and I really like the sound it produces.

The Shay (RCS) has Sierra Sound.  It is okay, but not up to Phoenix standards in my opinion.

So, take it or leave it, these are just my opinions.  I certainly do not consider myself to be an expert and you will probably get a lot of conflicting opinions from others. 


You get to make the decision.

John


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I have airwire, locolinc and RCS.  All have their good points.

Airwire can be controlled from down the street which is a nice feature.  However, I have found that if you have any grades in your track, then Airwire can be problematic.  It will slow down on the uphill and surge on the down hill unless you constantly adjust the transmitter.  I find that to be very troublesome, especially if I just want to run a train and forget about it.

RCS does not seem to have that problem.  I can start my Shay and run it and it will run about the same speed both uphill and downhill.  The problem with RCS is that there is very limited reception.  You have to be within about 15 feet of the engine in order to control it.  That may not be a problem to people who want to follow their trains around the layout.  Actually, I do like RCS because I can set a speed and just about forget about it.  I am having a Connie converted right now and I am  hoping that it operates the same as the Shay.  If so, I will be very happy with the RCS.

Locolinc was my original choice.  It has probably the worst reception of them all.  The main thing I do not like is that I also had Soundlinc installed in my engines and I am very unhappy with that sound system.  The exception is the bell is just beautiful on the Soundlinc.

The airwire engine ( a Bachmann Annie) has Phoenix P5 installed and I really like the sound it produces.

The Shay (RCS) has Sierra Sound.  It is okay, but not up to Phoenix standards in my opinion.

So, take it or leave it, these are just my opinions.  I certainly do not consider myself to be an expert and you will probably get a lot of conflicting opinions from others. 


You get to make the decision.

John


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually, a clarification:

I do not have very steep grades on my layout but with the Airwire, unless I really started the engine going on the flat, it would sometimes come to a complete stop on the uphill and then surge to unrealistic speeds on the downhills.  

I have since gone back and tried to eliminate the grades on the upper portion of my layout.

I do not understand why RCS does not have this problem and the Airwire does.

If someone can explain that, I would be greatful.

John


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

I too experienced the same problems with the Airwire.  If you have any grades (2-3 percent), you just can't leave the throttle on a set speed for the reasons stated above.  I recently tried the QSI g-wire receiver and their Aristo PnP soundcard/decoder.  This setup utilizes the Airwire transmitter.  This combination gives you fantastic range and the grade/curve problems I've seen with the airwire receiver go away.  I believe the reason for this is that the g-wire utilizes BEMF.  I'm not exactly sure what BEMF is, but apparently in monitors the engine's speed and varies power to the motor to maintain that speed.  The result is pretty consistent speed around the layout.  My Bachmann K now runs up the 3% grade at a realistic speed and comes back down the same way.  It also goes through curves much smoother than the airwire.  So far I really like this combination (and it's cheaper than adding an airwire receiver and phoenix card).  It's also not without its problems either.  I have a post on the DCC forum with questions and problems regarding this receiver (http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/34/postid/20748/view/topic/Default.aspx


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 03/29/2008 11:23 PM


However, I have found that if you have any grades in your track, then Airwire can be problematic.  It will slow down on the uphill and surge on the down hill unless you constantly adjust the transmitter.  I find that to be very troublesome, especially if I just want to run a train and forget about it.
I'm glad to see my grade problem has been confirmed by several other AirWire users. So now I must wonder when and if it will ever get fixed?/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The QSI decoder (with or without the Gwire receiver) has all the controls and speed options that most sophisticated DCC decoders have. There are several different settings for basic motor operation, and the default one works with BEMF, simulating the momentum of a locomotive, and resisting toy-like acceleration or deceleration rates. 

Regards, Greg


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## terry_n_85318 (Jan 3, 2008)

BEMF (Back EMF) is the voltage that is generated by the motor itself (it's a generator) and it subtracts from the applied voltage. 
The Airwire gives a constant current for a given throttle setting. If the current demand is higher, the motor will slow down (going up hill or around a curve) and if the current demad is lower (going down hill) the motor will speed up. Unless you actually monitor motor speed, you will experience those "problems". I don't see it as a big issue. 
Terry


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 03/29/2008 11:40 PM
Actually, a clarification:



I do not have very steep grades on my layout but with the Airwire, unless I really started the engine going on the flat, it would sometimes come to a complete stop on the uphill and then surge to unrealistic speeds on the downhills.  



I have since gone back and tried to eliminate the grades on the upper portion of my layout.



I do not understand why RCS does not have this problem and the Airwire does.



If someone can explain that, I would be greatful.



John




John, I wish I could help with an answer....Like you my RCS does not speed up or slow down, even with my screwy grades...it just works...maybe Tony can come back in and explain...although I haven't had any of the range issues you mentioned above, I can control my trains from a much greater distance 80'+ easy...w/ my TX24 

cale


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

silly dbl post with the new forum hang up thingy 
cale


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By calenelson on 03/31/2008 12:06 PM
Posted By jbwilcox on 03/29/2008 11:40 PM 
Actually, a clarification:



I do not have very steep grades on my layout but with the Airwire, unless I really started the engine going on the flat, it would sometimes come to a complete stop on the uphill and then surge to unrealistic speeds on the downhills.  



I have since gone back and tried to eliminate the grades on the upper portion of my layout.



I do not understand why RCS does not have this problem and the Airwire does.



If someone can explain that, I would be greatful.



John

John, I wish I could help with an answer....Like you my RCS does not speed up or slow down, even with my screwy grades...it just works...maybe Tony can come back in and explain...although I haven't had any of the range issues you mentioned above, I can control my trains from a much greater distance 80'+ easy...w/ my TX24 
cale




Whilst I cannot comment about a competitors product, I can tell you that RCS does not have BEMF. 
I do however use a highly regarded, and to date seemingly bullet proof, Solid State motor driver that is highly efficient. These cost a lot of money, but are certainly worth it to me.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

My RCS I have in My LGB K-28 does not speed up and slow down..BUT it is an ealier model of RCS..BUT REAL trains, steam engines do not have BEMF and work going up grades and speed up a little down grades....my Aster LGB K-28 runs like a REAL engine up hill under a load so I like that it picks up speed and slows down. 

My layout must not have very steep grades and I do not have a problem with the Airwire keeping constant speed..even on the same places that my K-28 slow down on....go figure. 

It is not an unrealiztic slow down and speed up for me so I am OK with it. 

Now my LGB MTS on battery power does keep a constant speed and to me doesn't seem realistic. 

I am happy with every control I have, as stated above...just like women ya like them for their differences, and enjoy them each when ya can.!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi All, 

I would like to thank everyone who posted a reply to this thread. 

I have another question, can someone give me an idea of the run time they are getting with r/c and sound using 14.4 volt sub c 2400 mah NiCD batteries?? Checking on the net I saw sub c 4500 mah NiCD 7.2 battery packs, what's the difference?? Would the 45's give longer run time than the 24's?? 

Thank's 
chuck


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Chuck 

In general, the higher the mah rating, the lomger the run time. Sub Cs will give a heavier amperage drain than double As. 

I have 19.2V sub Cs 4000 mah NiMH powering a USAT F3A-B set. With lights but no smoke or sound pulling a heavy train in continuous service I get an hour and a half run time. On the other hand, my B'mann shay with both lights and sound but no smoke, with 14.4V double As gives almost 3 hours in continuous service and it also can pull a heavy train. 

Our normal operations on saturday morning involve a lot of switching - I only ever run continuously to test something. I have never had a freshly charged loco run its batteries down during our 3 hour ops session. 

Regards ... Doug


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