# Do decoders (any/all brands) overheat?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

A friend has an Aristo-Craft Dash 9 that has a history of the Revolution receivers in it overheating.

This happened with the old Revolution and also with the new Revolution with sound. The loco is left outside 24/7 and probably has several thousand hours running time on it.

Lewis mentioned that they are coming out with a fan that could solve this problem.

The reason I am posting this on the DCC forum is that we have been talking about possibly switching the Dash 9 over to DCC operation.

The friend has purchased several Piko locomotives and really likes them. He is considering buying the Piko system (which I am unfamiliar with) and buying a loco with a Piko decoder installed in it.

That would leave the Dash 9 and other Aristo locomotives with a Revolution interface and the possibility of putting DCC decoders in them.

If he goes with the Piko system any and all decoders would have to be programmable by the Piko Command Station etc. 

The first question has to be if he could be assured that DCC decoders would not overheat as his Revolutions have. We both have a quantity of Aristo locomotives with Revolutions in them that do not have an overheating problem so this is not just a generic Revolution question.

The second question is whether there is anything proprietary about the Piko DCC system or if there is any reason to suspect it could not program a variety of DCC decoder brands.

Some folks on MLS do not like Aristo-Craft - this is not addressed to them. We both happen to like Aristo-Craft locomotives and simply want to solve a problem with one or two of them. 

My preference would be to hear from those who are actually using Piko locomotives and the Piko DCC system.

Additionally I would like to hear from anyone who has run into overheating decoders (properly rated for the loco they are in) and if so what they were running that gave them problems - and what they might have done to resolve the overheating problem.

Regarding the installation of the decoders I believe the Aristo-Craft interface is not interchangeable with the LGB ten pin DCC interface. I could be wrong.
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Massoth shows a plug in connection to the Aristo interface. Who else offers plug-in convenience with the Aristo socket?
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I have not looked into the Piko system yet but it is good to know Jonathan is working there.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## WillemD (Jul 23, 2015)

PIKO's DCC system is produced by Massoth, and is considered as the smaller sister to Massoth's DCC system. The PIKO system has a lower power output (5A instead of 12A), and it does not have a PC interface port.

Both systems are fully DCC compatible, I've never heard a story about incompatibility with certain decoder brands.

The PIKO decoder is actually produced by Massoth as well, their sound kits are produced in cooperation with Uhlenbrock. Both are kinda overpriced, as for example the Massoth 'XL' decoder is cheaper than the PIKO decoder while essentially being the same thing.

I've switched to DCC three months ago, and only have limited experience with the PIKO DCC system and decoders so far.

Can't help you on the overheating problem. Sounds like something else in the loco has gone haywire over the years, which causes the Revolution to overheat.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The Piko decoders in USA style locomotives are not made by Massoth, the DCC system is.


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## WillemD (Jul 23, 2015)

Correct, I forgot about the #36220 American steam soundkit (I'm a Euro guy  )... That one is made by SoundTraxx indeed.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Thanks guys. My buddy likes the big stuff like the Dash 9, SD-45 etc. as well as the smaller Piko European Locos.

He has been running Bridgewerks 20 - 25 amp system & Aristo Elite up to 8 hours a day (day after day).

I doubt 5 amps would last long before he got frustrated.

He is not a technical guy so whatever he buys he will probably need a LOT of phone support (I don't want to learn yet another system so I don't want to be the go to guy). He also does not use the Internet.

I don't know about putting Piko decoders into Dash 9's and SD-45's but Matt will work with him.

I need someone familiar with Aristo's interface, Piko's system, decoders that easily install in Dash 9's & SD-45's and a lot of time & patience.

I don't care what brand he chooses - I just want it to be simple and trouble free. I should add that the Locos & decoders will probably be left outside under cover 24/7/365.

Feel free to comment here or send me an email & I can phone you.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

In general, any electronics that put out heat in a confined area can overheat. Even with a fan on it, it just circulates hot air around. It helps a bit. If the engine by design has vents or openings, the fan will help a lot.

Another problem is in full sun, the inside gets really hot due to being like a green house or car in the sun. On top of the motor and decoder heat.

The best way to cool is have air vents to let cool air in, and hot air out. That will remove the weather tightness even with a fine screen to reduce dust entrance. Also frequent removal of the shell and dust removal 

The other way is to up-rate a decoder, ie run a 10 amp version when a 5 amp will do. A larger decoder should be designed to handle more heat, and dissipate more heat. Also changing the heat sink to a larger one will help.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Older decoders have current limits and some like the Zimo MX690 has 2 specs, 1 for no heat sink and another for a heat sink.
The newer MX695 is 6 amp with no heat sink. This is total current, lights, smoke and motor combined. No heat sink needed as the Mosfets are now lower resistance.
Most decoders will work on most systems, the only exception I know of is the MTS serial decoders need systems that can output 14 speed steps and serial data.
On another note, some decoders for largescale are rated at 21 volts and some systems are 24 volts like LGB and Zimo and even Greg's upgraded NCE system.
So, be sure to read and understand the specs, voltage, voltage surge, total current and if in doubt post questions here.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Often the best solution is to learn from someone else's experience. If I recall correctly, neither my SD-45's nor his Dash 9 have any air vents - unlike some large diesels that have simulated but unpowered fans.

His layout is in a large yard. It is surrounded by a tall wooden board fence (no breeze) with no trees (no shade and no dirt and no grass). He runs his trains for hours at a time and they are frequently fairly long trains (low speed) with cars that remain outside 24/7/365 (limited lubrication plus probably some rust & corrosion on the axles).

Add to this some manufacturers (I think LGB - or maybe it was Aristo) warn against using their decoders with coreless motors (I have no idea what a coreless motor is or which manufacturers use them or if any decoders work with coreless motors).

The ventless hoods of his locos may help in that they may occasionally end up out in the rain or at least in heavy humidity.

As I had mentioned, Lewis had said something about a fan but a lot more would have to be known. What fan? Who makes it? What is the voltage & amps? How big is the fan body - how big is the blade - would it be hard to find a place to mount it? What kind of a mount would be needed? Who sells it? Where and how would it be mounted? How would it be electrically connected? Would it have to be moved if a decoder replaced a Revolution or a Revolution replaced a decoder? Would the electrical power to the fan be a problem if track power was used or if a Revolution or even a Train Engineer (PWC/PWM) was used or if MTC/DCC power was used?

Rick at Cordless Renovations has some products that might work but hearing from someone who is already running SD-45s and Dash 9's with some sort of fan in them would be far more helpful.

The best solution would be if there was someone he could ship the loco to that would install the decoder, fans or whatever and then ship them back to him and guarantee it would work for at least a year. I don't know if Axel or Mohammed or anyone else would want to do this.

Matt probably would but I don't think Piko makes a decoder that would handle the SD-45's or Dash 9's. If he goes to this expense he would probably want a sound decoder and speakers installed with sound appropriate to the locomotives which again probably eliminates Piko.

His locos already have a lot of hours on them so another possibility might be a new large USAT diesel and just start from scratch with it but if so it to would have to hold up in the above environment.

I don't know what he will want to do. It is his problem, his yard and his money. I am simply asking questions but it will be up to him to decide what he eventually wants to do. I do not run my trains the way he does but he always amazes me by what he accomplishes that breaks all the rules I am accustomed to.

Whatever he chooses someone else will have to do it (not me) so it needs to be a turnkey operation. He would not know how to do it and I do not have the time or patience anymore. I do not mean to imply that he has a lot of money - he doesn't. He is just a good friend and I would like to help him.

So far it looks like he would need a central/command station (I would not suggest anything less than 10 amps), A power supply for the central/command station (unless he could use his 20 - 25 amp Bridgewerks), A wireless throttle (probably with a wireless receiver), possibly a booster with possibly a power supply for the booster (perhaps he could use his Elite), something that can program whatever brand of decoders he ends up with, perhaps even a new large US style diesel locomotive to put everything in.

He likes the display of his Revolution transmitter and my Massoth Navigators so he will probably want a transmitter similar to them rather than something with a lot of buttons like my DigiTrax DG whatever. 

I would trust Matt, Mohammed, Axel (Dan) or Mike but I would not refer him to a dealer neither he or I have dealt with before. 

It would be hard for him to decide to buy a system he has never seen and knows no one who is using it.

He is not going to want to learn DCC terminology. If he buys a system that dealer is going to have to program everything for him so all he has to do is push the buttons. If he buys more decoders in the future the dealer will probably have to program them for him also just as Mohammed is doing for me now.
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If a dealer reads this and is interested, feel free to send me an email and I can put you in touch with the guy or I can phone you and we can talk about it.*

Jerry


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