# level problems



## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

Hello all,


Got a bit of a problem, I started my first outdoor train layout, well to be honest my first layout all together.... My problem came about after laying my first level of 6x6x8 to get a nice level area to work with. It all started out nice, then after looking at my level string I saw it go deeper and deeper into the ground....my area is not what you call level...by no means... so I guess my question is should I keep digging and keep the level going, or.....or... what?????





Also if you let me know how to post pictures I will show you.....




Thanks,


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Your lucky its not totally level, some grade is OK. and you can dig out some areas for cuts and creat cool rolling hills. Just buy you a battery powered shovel and go for it. 

I had a hard time finding photos as examples. Heres a very old copy of a photo of Nebraska City Jct.
I dug out 16" to creat a maintance of way sidings and used the dirt for other fill areas. We only move dirt ONCE..








Gives distance to a small area.


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## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

Where do I get one of those battery powered shovels?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

From the dream-land store of America. Just outside of Heaven. 

And we all start out like this, asking, why am I in the hobby?








This is the Highline 08.
Best way to dig is find someone else to do it.


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## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

nice pictures, how do you post them?


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## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

Also the area I have is 40 ft long and 12 ft wide, all the wife would allow.....for now


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

Posted By Gscaletrainnut101 on 03/17/2009 7:14 PM
nice pictures, how do you post them? 



Posting pictures is a simple process. It does require an internet hosting site, like Photobucket, in which to place your pictures though. I think My Space will work too. 

Once the picture is uploaded from your computer to the hosting site, you need to put a URL identified pathname on here directing this website back to the repositiory (Photobucket or My Space) and the picture. sounds complicated, but it's really not. just roll over an uploaded picture and a pulldown menu will appear. Right click on the IMG code and copy it. Then insert it where you want a picture in your post. 

Also, when you are building the post, the picture will not show right off. At first, just the URL path will show. After it's posted, the photo will show even when you're editing an existing post.

Step One: Create an account with Photobucket or another picture hosting site.

Step Two: upload the desired picture into your account (or album).

Step three: Copy the URL pathname (the IMG Code) from your (for example) Photobucket album .

Step four: Insert the URL pathname in your post.

Step Five: Submit the post and you will see the picture.

Simple, really. Otherwise people like _me_ wouldn't be able to do it.

Try this link. It leads to my album on Photobucket. You can see what a hosting site looks like. If you like it, there's a place to join the 'bucket:

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

One more thing, more to the OP really, you don't need to be _absolutely_ level front to back (gradient), just side to side. If you have to dig on (for instance) the left side, put the dirt on the right side to raise it. This will level your track much faster and is exactly what the real thing does.









Don't waste that valuable grade material! 

Now, as to gradient (slope front to back), you _do _want to keep this as _gentle_ as possible. It isn't desirable to be forced into running double headers (two engines) for _every_ consist. I mean, it's showy and all, just not efficient. There are several excellent books on Garden Railroading and also, of course, the magazine by the same name, who can be of considerable assistance in this area. The best resource though is the local club.

Lastly, there are considerable examples of spectacular layouts that have been done in tight areas just like yours. You may have to use the shorter cars and all, but not everyone wants to do mainline stuff. Most of the G gauge equipment offered is narrow-gauge anyway. 

It really is a blow to the hobby that LGB went under. They honestly were the quality standard that everyone else had to keep up with. It's sad really, but there you have it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

nice pictures, how do you post them? 


Guys, not meaning any offence, but everyone asks this question. There's a quartet of Forums called "WebSite and Forum Help" 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afgroup/3/Default.aspx. In the Forum Bugs and Testing you will usually find someone trying their photo posting. Dwight (Moderator) keeps a close eye and will help if needed. (Those forums keep the discussion on the other forums to the topic in hand.) 
And take a look - there's a thread running right now: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/26/postid/25232/view/topic/Default.aspx 

There's also a FAQ section on the Resources Menu, but the photo-posting FAQ got lost in the site redesign last year. I'll bring it to Dwight's attention. 

Stude - I admire your method of posting pics. I didn't realise that Photobucket puts the IMG in square brackets for you!


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## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you Stude, that was very helpful. I will try to post some pictures on this Topic. 
Being new to the site, I saw the beginner area (this one) and posted my questions here. Now that I know I'll get scolded I will try to post in the right area from now on.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that I know I'll get scolded I will try to post in the right area from now on. 


Hey, I said "no offence" intended. The guys here will answer any questions, including railroads, life, the universe and everything. Even questions on posting pics. 

I was just trying to save you waiting for someone to type the info already in the 'Posting Photos' thread... sorry if it seemed a little short.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Gnut:

I'm glad you posted that question, I was getting ready to--so I printed 'em off too!








(_O happy days...) _ 
I lit 'em in blue with the mouse, the drop-down said 'PRINT' so I clicked it, and got two pages of prior posts in addition to the one I wanted. 

*That's *why I don't mess around: I get errors nobody ever heard of. That's also why I don't post pixes, but now I'm going to try.

Pete's a good guy, like all of us, what's in our heads sometimes doesn't show up on the screen.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/18/2009 2:24 PM
Gnut:



Pete's a good guy, like all of us, what's in our heads sometimes doesn't show up on the screen. 




For me, it is sometimes a VERY good thing that what is in my head doesn't show on the screen!







... (I can never find the appropriate 'smelly'!)


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## jebouck (Jan 2, 2008)

The best device I ever invested in when I built my layout was a laser level.
As far as your track work;
Shoot the length of the layout. Find the medium. Dig where you need to go lower and use the dirt to fill where you need to go higher.

You will need several metal stakes, some string and your laser.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I just use GPS system...... NOT. simple 4ft level. 
Atless your out doing something on your RR. We need more folks doing than just talking about doing. 
I had some photos someplace that showed how i steped the grade. but I just can't find them.


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

there is a book out, has been for oh... ten or fifteen years, I think the title is, "Garden Railroading with LGB," or something to that effect. They handle this exact situation beautifully (level track and gradient). There's lots of pictures to droo... um... ah, _study _too.







My son loved the book. He was always running up to me with the book and shouting, "Dad, Dad, I wanna do this with the trains." It was usually something that was way too expensive or totally impractical for where we lived, but hey? Who could complain about such enthusiasm?


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## Gscaletrainnut101 (Mar 14, 2009)

Pete, I guess I jumped the gun, I'm sorry. 
As soon as I get home I will up load some badly taken pictures of (as my wife has named it) My mess. Like I said my layout will be 40 ft long and 12 ft wide. On one side of the layout will be a 10 ft long 12ft wide covered shelter, where I will put my yard and train storage once its all done. That's as far as I have gotten. 

Thanks All


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## studeclunker (Mar 15, 2009)

You're not jumping the gun at all. Actually, I think you've picked just the right time to pick the experts brains. After all, a mistake avoided is time saved and frustration avoided.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/18/2009 2:24 PM
Gnut:



Pete's a good guy, like all of us, what's in our heads sometimes doesn't show up on the screen. 



Well, thanks for sticking up for me, and Gnut - good of you to stick around. We do mean well.

Posted By Les on 03/18/2009 2:24 PM
For me, it is sometimes a VERY good thing that what is in my head doesn't show on the screen!







... (I can never find the appropriate 'smelly'!) 


Yeah - where's that 'exploding' one when you need it?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Just tellin' it the way it is, Pete. And, I believes that was Semp that wrote about the emoticon.

Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's always a problem with new people. 

There is a ton of good information ALREADY on the site, and especially in the areas reserved for just this. 

Many threads are written by experts and revised to be almost perfect. 

When a beginner asks a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question) you get a range of responses: 

1. Polite message to check the already rich amount of information, often by people who are, honestly, just plain tired of typing the same stuff over and over. 

2. Someone jumps in, berated person who did #1 above and gives his opinion. 

3. Good responses by people who aren't completely tired of typing the same stuff over and over. 

4. Partial responses by well-intentioned people but probably not the whole story. 

5. More people berating 1-4 above! 

6. people berating #2 and #5... 

what's the best thing to do? 

In the forums that I think are really slick, (this means MY opinion), newbies are taken under the wing and gently but consistently pointed to the wealth of good information already out there in a condenses format... give them the links to help them, but teach people to use the search function. 

It's like Google on the internet... you can find a ton of information if you just look. 

Then, the subsequent questions are more likely to be of interest to all... 

Well, that's my 2 cents, so you can assign me a number from above ha ha! 

Regards, Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I am absolutely amazed at what Google can find! I have two (minor) problems with my computer (cannot consistently delete .AVI files and sometimes I cannot drag and drop items in the "START|Program Files" menu to rearrange them to my liking). I could not even guess what forum to go to, to ask questions about them or even what to search for if I did find a forum. 

I just went to Google and typed in: 

"Cannot delete AVI files" 

and 

"Cannot drag and drop in Start Program Files menu" 

I am not alone in these problems! ... THOUSANDS of folk have already asked the questions! Thousands of folk have attempted to find an answer and provide a cure. 

(Unfortunately, there are no "CURES" for either of the problems, but there are some "work-arounds".) 

My point is that we need to be less intimidated by our questions and realize that we are not alone in having them. Just word them the best we can and type them into search engines. Oodles of info out there and SOME of it will answer the questions. 

I have even just typed in a "part number" printed on the side of a fan in a dehumidifier and found how to fix the one I have without buying a replacement (and where to buy a replacement if I decide to not try the repair of the fan itself), 

Amazing what is out there and how easy it is to use, once I got over the feeling that I was totally alone in my little problem and worrying about how to word the search parameter.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Interesting thread, 

Note how it has drifted all over the place. 

Searching is one thing and yes one could get answers via Google or otherwise. My take is that inherent to the human nature is one's drive to communicate. In the case of this forum we have old and new "communicating" about their favorite hobby and a need to share experiences and knowlegde with the fellow train hobbiest. 

As such the redundancy. However I note that every time the same question gets asked a new answer of some type comes up. 

If this was only a site for hobby train search databases, I guess we would not need any "chat" line, nor would we need any forum topic headers yes? 

So boring. 

I welcome new and redundant questions. Every time I pick up on something new or a twist on the main theme. 

Thus my two cents and now I must retreat back to my work. 

gg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I can seldom get forum search engines to find me anything useful. 

Now that google mainly returns forum questions, but not answers, it's not as useful as it used to be. 

If one new guy asks, there are 20 wondering the same thing. 

Ask away!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Torby on 03/20/2009 2:55 PM
I can seldom get forum search engines to find me anything useful. 

Now that google mainly returns forum questions, but not answers, it's not as useful as it used to be. 

If one new guy asks, there are 20 wondering the same thing. 

Ask away!


HEAR HEAR !


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/20/2009 11:47 AM



//// Greg, please understand, right off the top, that I have no intention whatsoever to be confrontational. You have presented a position, clearly and without malice. I also happen to think you are one of the 'patient ones' who 'type in' as often as the situation seems to warrant it. In short, you have wings and a halo. Okay? I want to present a different perspective.

It's always a problem with new people. 

/// Please let this board not 'age' to the point where 'new people' are seen--even sublimnially--as 'a problem'.

There is a ton of good information ALREADY on the site, and especially in the areas reserved for just this. 

/// Yes, there is. _Finding it for the newbie is the trick._ Also, in connection with another thread, there are older guys who just aren't computer savvy. I include myself as the most unsophisticated of the unknowning. I'd be delighted to know how to search the gold mine of data to be found here. But I don't know how, and it seems every other key I press gives me an error or lands me I know not where. This is difficult for a man of your reduced age but expanded expertise to grasp, I realize. But some _need_ handholding. Or just need to feel welcome. Consider: I remember UNIVAC. And the discovery of LEDs. And ohmigosh, 4-bit micros! I got my electronics education when the pentode tube was a headache for the repairman.

////For my part, I am lucky: for some reason, 'Them As Knows' either like or pity me, and help me to my heart's content. No, I'm not lazy, I find this site's information Not Readily Accessible. I do know enough _now_ to ask for links instead of posing questions, but it took about six months. I DO NOT know how to NAVIGATE this site. And I mean no criticism to anyone. I feel every moderator on this board goes and has gone above and beyond to help me. So have many of the 'old' members. Dwight deserves special mention, he's helped me immensely with "Les, here's a (prefabricated) link'. So few like him in this world. Steve has been great, too.

Many threads are written by experts and revised to be almost perfect. 

When a beginner asks a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question) you get a range of responses: 

1. Polite message to check the already rich amount of information, often by people who are, honestly, just plain tired of typing the same stuff over and over. 

/// Very true and accurate. But that takes us back to 'knowing how' and 'being able to'. And that ineffable quality called 'tone'.

2. Someone jumps in, berated person who did #1 above and gives his opinion.

/// This is touchy: I haven't been the butt of anything like that, haven't really even seen it, but maybe I was on a different track. (Pun!!) 

3. Good responses by people who aren't completely tired of typing the same stuff over and over. 

/// Thank God for the patient people on this board. But the implication of 'typing the same stuff over and over' carries a negative connotation-- my take. Boards get 'hardened' and 'insular' over such small 'traits', if they spread, until it becomes difficult for a noob to feel welcome. Or worse, an 'elite' group arises whose members occasionally descend to chide the ignorant for their uncouth ways: 'Check the FAQ', already!

4. Partial responses by well-intentioned people but probably not the whole story. 

5. More people berating 1-4 above! 

6. people berating #2 and #5... 

what's the best thing to do? 

/// Frown & lean heavily on berating. Keep it nice, upbeat, or if in disagreement, do it civilly.


In the forums that I think are really slick, (this means MY opinion), newbies are taken under the wing and gently but consistently pointed to the wealth of good information already out there in a condenses format... give them the links to help them, but teach people to use the search function. 

It's like Google on the internet... you can find a ton of information if you just look. 

/// To repeat myself, I have problems navigating this board. I consider myself a half-noob. Does this sound as though I've taken your post personally? Far from it. I'm trying to illustrate how your well-intentioned views can be taken 'elsewise' and grow. 

Then, the subsequent questions are more likely to be of interest to all...

/// This is the weakest part of your post: _wherein is it written that all posts must 'be of interest to all'?_ What if some dope can't figure out what a feedwater injector looks like, gets a post listing five sites, goes to them, then comes back and says, "Duh... which should go on my (basically) freelanced backwoods loco? Yeah, hair-tearing time. But the guy seriously wants to know. Perhaps he has hopes of someday emulating the Cool Guys and posting a 'bash of his own. Get enough people letting him know how uninformed he is, how the FAQs can answer that, the board provider might see a lack of growth. Note I posit 'might'. A more common outgrowth is, the elite cheap-shotting in passing a particular poster--on any thread they can--after reading a series _they _don't find congenial, particulary concerning a thread exposing the underbelly of a world wherein they have garnered a personal recognition, or have a finanacial stake, or where the imagined base of their exalted status is under- worshipped. That's why I suggested a nickel-dime contest for the 'Less than perfect' models on this site, to encourage Lesser Beings to contribute. It has been received with a reverberating silence.

Well, that's my 2 cents, so you can assign me a number from above ha ha!

/// I'll give you a whole nickel for presenting me with the option of showing another perspective. I sincerely mean nothing personal, I'll be the first to say that you've helped me where you could. Boards and hobbies grow by making the newbies feel welcome. For that, I'll give this board a whole year's subscription.


Les 

Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/20/2009 12:20 PM
[edited, pertaining to Google issues]
I am not alone in these problems! ... THOUSANDS of folk have already asked the questions! Thousands of folk have attempted to find an answer and provide a cure. 

[edited]

My point is that we need to be less intimidated by our questions and realize that we are not alone in having them. Just word them the best we can and type them into search engines. Oodles of info out there and SOME of it will answer the questions. 

[edited]

Semp, I picked your post apart to emphasise what I think is seriously important to the growth of a board like this: It is underlined above. I hope I didn't skew your meaning and intent. If so, I apologize and stand ready to be corrected.

The reason I did was, I came here a noob and got so much patient help, sometimes over and over (listening, Ralph? and so many others I forget at the moment.) Some guys don't get it on the first take. But here, there's a whole bunch of folks who will do whatever they can to help. And I think you're one of 'em.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

GG,

I wore out my brain trying to say what you just did.

Who indeed wants a 'lookup table'?

I like the interpersonal contact, too.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Torb:

I stand in awe of your brevity and consciseness. Thought it was me. (Google).

Les


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2009)

Les got a point there. finding a mentor feels better than finding a link. 

but, i understand Greg as well. writing the same things on the same forum over and over must give a feeling of futileness.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Korm,

Read the posts above mine, where the human element was better described than I did.

I bet I've answered the same machine questions three or four times, but it's okay by me. Just make 'em feel okay.

Anyway, I've been poking gently at you off 'n on. I figure you for an old Kraut, is that so? I'm 1/2.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Well Gents, 

Bit of a conversation here. 

I remember back a few months ago when I asked my first timid question on this forum and man did I get a solid and secure response from you guys.









Let us not forget. 

And now I am going to go to the track part of this forum and post a stupid question and I really am looking forward to the GREAT ONES and their reply. 

Final analysis, I may be a newbie however it reminds me of being a freshman in University.... licking the floor. 

The day will come when I can be a "senior" with you guys and take a "newbie" under my wing and give the lad a true sense of acceptance into the "fraternity". Realistically this can be seen as a bit of a cult yes?









I rest my case. 

May the Lord pass judgement on me... (church is coming up on Sunday and I'm practicing) 

gg










PS: Levity here Gents.... Life is simple. apply the KISS theory to everything you do in life.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

GG,

I'm an old Ozark hillbilly. The day I have to lick a floor is the day I run out of shells.









I'm glad you've found a home here. People like you grow this board, because you won't forget (I hope) your initial warm welcome. It's our job to make that happen. Simple as that.

Les


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Les on 03/20/2009 5:09 PM
GG,

I'm an old Ozark hillbilly. The day I have to lick a floor is the day I run out of shells.









I'm glad you've found a home here. People like you grow this board, because you won't forget (I hope) your initial warm welcome. It's our job to make that happen. Simple as that.

Les






Les even in your days and life.... think rite of passage..... you have been there when you think of it. 


No different in our world today... earn our stripes... and yes even on train forums... 

We need to "pay-forward". Hope everyone understands this concept. WE and ALL of us were newbies at one point in time. Least we forget. 

You be the man. Attitudes are correct. 

gg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Rarely have I received such a compliment. Thank you. And, I'm not even one of the Great Ones. Just a schlub tryin' to help. 

And yeah, I'm headed for church Sunday, too.

Les Whitaker


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't mind the same questions over and over again, but I do mind when the same question is asked in just one thread, especially when it was answered many times over in that same thread just one or two entries back.

There are a couple of other things that happen sometimes that I really do object to, but if I were to bring them up here I would be guilty of one of them!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/20/2009 6:17 PM
I don't mind the same questions over and over again, but I do mind when the same question is asked in just one thread, especially when it was answered many times over in that same thread just one or two entries back.

There are a couple of other things that happen sometimes that I really do object to, but if I were to bring them up here I would be guilty of one of them!













YES Semper, I too am guilty of not reading things and understanding.... 

That's it.... I am condemned to licking the floor in the washroom.... 

I am but a simple human....









gg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

it was answered many times over in that same thread just one or two entries back.


I was going to move my thoughts to the "Public Forum" so that Gnut wouldn't be totally put off by our ranting philosophizing, but as you guys all ready took care of that, let me offer two four cents. 

When I'm tired, busy or otherwise not feeling totally charitable, I always have to bite my tongue when someone asks a question that has just been answered. The new folk just don't appreciate being - what was the word - "scolded" ?









I didn't bite myself over the photo posting issue, as it is quite a long explanation and I knew it had just been addressed (again.) _[If this site had some "artificial intelligence", it would note someone typing 'post photos' and pop up a little dialogue box with "did you want to know how to post images? Click here for the answer". Like that annoying Microsoft 'Assistant'. And where's the FAQ when you need it - Dwight?] 
_
I thought I was gentle in my post, but almost anything can be read the wrong way, I guess.









*Which comes to my major point (finally!)* People have to be left to get used to the 'forum' way of life. When you first encounter an Internet Forum, it looks like a place where you ask a question and get lots of answers. It is, but it is much more than that. It is also an online repository of gazillions of answers that can be found with a little effort. When you've been around for a few months, you realise that it might be quicker to do a search before asking your question. It's less annoying to the zookeepers, too.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 03/21/2009 9:00 AM
it was answered many times over in that same thread just one or two entries back.


I was going to move my thoughts to the "Public Forum" so that Gnut wouldn't be totally put off by our ranting philosophizing, but as you guys all ready took care of that, let me offer two four cents. 

When I'm tired, busy or otherwise not feeling totally charitable, I always have to bite my tongue when someone asks a question that has just been answered. The new folk just don't appreciate being - what was the word - "scolded" ? 

I didn't bite myself over the photo posting issue, as it is quite a long explanation and I knew it had just been addressed (again.) [If this site had some "artificial intelligence", it would note someone typing 'post photos' and pop up a little dialogue box with "did you want to know how to post images? Click here for the answer". Like that annoying Microsoft 'Assistant'. And where's the FAQ when you need it - Dwight?] 

I thought I was gentle in my post, but almost anything can be read the wrong way, I guess. 

Which comes to my major point (finally!) People have to get used to the 'forum' way of life. When you first encounter an Internet Forum, it looks like a place where you ask a question and get lots of answers. It is, but it is much more than that. It is also an online repository of gazillions of answers that can be found with a little effort. When you've been around for a few months, you realise that it might be quicker to do a search before asking your question. It's less annoying to the zookeepers, too.


I don't think the "zoo keepers" get so annoyed as do us zoo denizens ourselves.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Les, I'm belatedly replying to your post... I agree with your perspective as valid, and really expanding on what I said... the only quibble I have with you is where you say: 

"/// This is the weakest part of your post: wherein is it written that all posts must 'be of interest to all'?" 

I did not use the word MUST.... you DID include what I said: 

"Then, the subsequent questions are more likely to be of interest to all..." 

More likely means hope.... unfairly scolded here I believe.... 

"more likely" is a hope to keep the responses somewhat organized along what was asked.... no MUST here, I don't like "forum police" either. 

A fine balance between a free for all and a rigid structure.... flexible enough to help people and think outside the box, but not so disorganized that the information in the forum is such a mess no one can find anything in it. 

The forums are a valuable wealth of information, the "history" of people trying things, finding out long term how they worked is very valuable... so being able to go through what people said before is like gold to me. 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Les, 
yes, i am a kraut (but a young one - from your point of view...) 
but the krautpot felt too small. so i left about 30 years ago. 

------- 
to the theme at hand: 
every chickenyard needs a pecking order. - are we chicken?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Well gents this thread fails to look at some simple explanations;

When I'm writing out a question, I take my time to get my thoughts across, during that time it is entirely possible that the answer is being posted, then my Q arrives and names are tossed. Whereas a simple" look above" would cover that gross laspe of protocol manners....

I'm suprised that all you old dogs, that had your questions answered long ago, haven't kept a log and merely provided the link to those answers, instead we are told to go look for it! Were you told that back then?

If it's too much trouble why don't you just remain silent? Or are we, the newcomers to this list, an inconvienent reality? Are we invading your turf? Do we really need your putdowns or do you need to puff up your status?

Y'know I read sly comments about that other board and how this one is supposed to be much more friendly and less of a business, but the more negative responses to newcomers I see, the less friendly this board becomes and more likely I'll dismiss the whole lot!

John


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes sir, I bet Gscaletrainnut101 is really glad that he/she posted the question right about now.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/21/2009 9:48 AM
Les, I'm belatedly replying to your post... I agree with your perspective as valid, and really expanding on what I said... the only quibble I have with you is where you say: 

"/// This is the weakest part of your post: wherein is it written that all posts must 'be of interest to all'?" 

I did not use the word MUST.... you DID include what I said: 

/// You're correct, you did _not_ use the word 'must'. Note the 'quote marks' setting off your actual statement, '... be of interest to all....' I took the position that it's patently impossible for all posts to be of interest to all readers, and the reason I did was it is so often used to belabor someone for some reason. Hence the 'must' to lead into your observation.

/// Howsumever, if you feel I've misquoted you, I apologize. 

"Then, the subsequent questions are more likely to be of interest to all..." 

More likely means hope.... unfairly scolded here I believe....

/// I apologize for leaving the impression I was scolding you or anyone else. I wrote that I was taking a different perspective from yours, meaning only that.

"more likely" is a hope to keep the responses somewhat organized along what was asked.... no MUST here, I don't like "forum police" either. 
[edited]

No forum police for me, either.

Les

Regards, Greg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

John, I think you see that the questions ARE being answered, I was bringing up a counterpoint... and the fact that I only have so much bandwidth, so I concentrate on the newer, tougher issues. 

I have a FAQ section on my site, and there are ones on this site too... I don't see a bunch of negativism on this thread, in fact I think your post is the most negative on the entire thread. 

Calling people names and saying stuff like " If it's too much trouble why don't you just remain silent?" is REALLY negative.... 

Look at the GENERAL situation... questions like: 

track vs. battery power 
brass vs. stainless steel vs. aluminum track 
DCC vs. DCS vs. R/C 

have been beaten to death and I'm personally not able to contribute anything new to these discussions that have been analyzed and discussed many times by people I consider experts and very experienced. 

So, given the choice between answering one of the above questions, or helping someone who has an unusual problem with power pickup in an Aristo motor block, etc.... I will spend my precious free hours answering the questions that are not FAQs. 

That's the gist... 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm suprised that all you old dogs, that had your questions answered long ago, haven't kept a log and merely provided the link to those answers, instead we are told to go look for it! Were you told that back then?

John, 

All this started because I *did *give G-nut a link to a thread that answered his question in great detail - and he took mild offense at my comments. 



If it's too much trouble why don't you just remain silent


Believe me, if it is too much trouble we DO remain silent. A lot of old hands don't even read the Beginners forum, as they don't have time to answer the same question again.



Do we really need your putdowns 


I think we try very, very, very hard not to put down newcomers. But, just to give you a perspective, this hobby has been growing for 10+ years and shows no sign of slowing. One or two people find this site every week, and many of them ask the same questions. We (old dogs who should have given up answering long ago) have found from experience that it is no use answering a question with a link to a thread containing the answer, as it looks like impatience and doesn't make the newcomer feel welcome. Look what happened in this thread. 



I bet Gscaletrainnut101 is really glad that he/she posted the question 


Yeah, Steve, where were you when we got out of hand. This topic needs moderation!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 03/21/2009 3:43 PM
I bet Gscaletrainnut101 is really glad that he/she posted the question 
Yeah, Steve, where were you when we got out of hand. This topic needs moderation! 
Pete

As far as I can see there have been no forum rules broken, and I don't remember that Shad has ever attempted keeping individuals from acting foolish.

What the forum is, or isn't, as always rests squarely on the participant's shoulders, not the moderators.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 03/21/2009 9:00 AM
{snip...}[/i] _[If this site had some "artificial intelligence", it would note someone typing 'post photos' and pop up a little dialogue box with "did you want to know how to post images? Click here for the answer". Like that annoying Microsoft 'Assistant'. And where's the FAQ when you need it - Dwight?]_ {snip...}[/i]
Oh, I almost forgot.

When you get all the kinks worked out of the heuristics and the neural network algorithms module that will run on the MS/.Net - DNN framework. Oh by the way, after thinking about it a bit, I figure it might be a good idea to include both forward and back chaining capabilities too, just in case the user needs help in narrowing down the answer. Be sure to drop Shad a PM or eMail, I'm sure he'll be interested.









As for a partial answer for the question you posed to Dwight, refer to Question #11 in the FAQ accessed via *Resources menu >> FAQ >> Q11 How do I use the Quick Reply Editor to post a reply*.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

OK....................................................................................................

I just spent the last hour "playing" and demonstrating to the CFO of the GR&G the great tips and comments that blew her away with what I have learned. 

*This thanks to you people. *


I come upstairs in total satisfaction to find emotional stress over "slights" on written emails. 

OK.........................................................................................................


My business is based on email and I can say with confidence.... IT IS SO EASY TO SCREW UP THE INTENT OF A MESSAGE ON ANY WRITTEN COMMUNICATION FORMAT. [/b]
Now, as an example... did the above text sound to you like I was "screaming" ? 



Try this: 

*"People really need to pick up on the gest of the forum and start to log into the search feature."*


Not that I said anything negative however..... the gest was.... "you stupid ass, get with it" 


Try this: 

*"Welcome and yes you are right in saying that trains can be driven by both electricity and steam. You mention that you have a .... classic... bye the way, take a look at the following attachment that will explain why you can't convert one to the other easily... In the Beginner Forum there is also a thread on conversions that you may want to take a look at... Here is the link. " *


Well yes, I acknowledged the needs and wants, made comments and steered the lad in the right direction. 


*So, quite simple this is NOT the UN..... *


This is a culture on this forum.... Newbie's get used to it.... 

Senior lads..... spar and enjoy for you cut new frontiers... Please pay respect to newbies.... you were one at a point in history. 


Us newbies... we get offended... so be it... leave... if not , then we earn* "The rites of Passage"* (was I screaming here?)


And yes us Newbies will become Seniors.... (anyone who has gone to University knows what this means....







)






So Gents.... let us just sit back, enjoy our common passion, accept personality profiles as they may be and finally understand the limitations of the written word !!!




With this said I will once again continue my trek towards my bed....with an eye to developing a marketing strategy re costs of the GR&G to submit to my CFO (prior to her arrival in the bedroom) that in turn allows me to write an email in the near future....












gg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

My apologies to everyone. We wuz fustrated! I wandered off to try the search that was suggested... got totally fustrated by that experience and returned to the thread.

What 'I think struck me was newbies were being 'blamed' for shortcomings of the Internet. A time lapse where a question is being written as another answers a similar question. 

'cuse me but I thought I saw complaints about repitition as in 'we covered that already'... instead of Snideley's (Whiplash) try; look at post # x...oh I see we are not numbered.... then perhaps the posters name and the page #.

As for seaching here... I get faster links to this group through google than I do searching on site. I went to the archieves and got a list of 1,400 entries and the first page had 20. A look at the various subjects (topics) wasn't helpful at all. There's a ton of info in this thread and mebbe 10% on the subject 'level problems' ... so we ask our simple questions and are limited by the printed word.

Old dogs? I am one, jest not here.

Remember your Mama's words... if you can't say something nice... I forgot 'em...I'll try to do better. I didn't feel at all better after posting my fustrations and I don't really want to antagonize those that might help me.

I want to thank everybody here. You guys are wonderful giving your time to help us nabobs realise the joy of garden railways. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

John


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

Here's my 2 cents: If you think telling someone to do a search for their answer is rude, head over to LSC, if you say something they don't like, they will tell you to go somewhere else or call you by Goering's nick name. Nice group, real friendly. Personally I don't care what people say, I would rather search than ask a question as I hate typing. Also, I would rather post a picture than type, But that's because I like pictures and can’t type.








I lurked in this and other forums for 6 months before I felt I had something to contribute. As a newbe that may be the best way to learn. These sites exist and grow as long as people add interesting content. Bridges or buildings or novel solutions to problems. These posts usually come from people who make their first attempt after reading what others have tried. So, whats' my point? I don't know. Maybe people shouldn't be to sensitive, it's a hobby not a religion. (it's a cool hobby though)


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Bills on 03/22/2009 8:23 PM
Here's my 2 cents: If you think telling someone to do a search for their answer is rude, head over to LSC, if you say something they don't like, they will tell you to go somewhere else or call you by Goering's nick name. Nice group, real friendly. Personally I don't care what people say, I would rather search than ask a question as I hate typing. Also, I would rather post a picture than type, But that's because I like pictures and can’t type.








I lurked in this and other forums for 6 months before I felt I had something to contribute. As a newbe that may be the best way to learn. These sites exist and grow as long as people add interesting content. Bridges or buildings or novel solutions to problems. These posts usually come from people who make their first attempt after reading what others have tried. So, whats' my point? I don't know. Maybe people shouldn't be to sensitive, it's a hobby not a religion. (it's a cool hobby though)




Hear Hear !


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ditto... Greg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bills on 03/22/2009 8:23 PM
... it's a hobby not a religion.





IT'S NOT?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

I would like to add that when doing your first layout leveling a track is extremely important. every problem I have is due to sectional changes in height, or angled side to side track. Also shimming is often counterintuitive. In that the side that should be higher or lower is often the opposite of what you expect. I am rebuilding sections of my track that I first put down because of this. It is amazing how sensitive trains are to slight change. First timers should hear this again and again!!!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/22/2009 9:02 PM
Posted By Bills on 03/22/2009 8:23 PM
... it's a hobby not a religion.





IT'S NOT?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!















Semper, once again.... need I lecture you? 

This is a very serious hobby that can easily be turned into a religion. And yet a religion is just that .... a hobby to the extreme. 


Time consuming. 

Now back to topic.. We were talking level issues...


Hobbies need to be approached from a level perspective. 

gg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If I were level headed, would I be in it?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 03/22/2009 9:14 PM
If I were level headed, would I be in it?


You are level headed and yes you are in it. Your biggest issue in life is that of errant switches, which needs a therapeutic approach from your fellow forum members. 


Now, I do think that the creator of this thread, a one Newbie called "gscaltrainut101" is currently seeking outside professional therapeutic help due to association with us level headed and errant forum members. 


gg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

leveling a track is extremely important


Nice to get back to the topic (without the originator, sadly.) 

Bill, a couple of comments. Yes, we have the same problems that the 'big' railroads have, and good track is important. Solid ballast or similar support is good (I spent yesterday re-ballasting Rog's layout due to winter frost heaves, washouts, etc.) 

However, with the big flanges on most mass-produced trains, the track has to be really bad to cause derailments. Long-wheelbase, rigid locomotives are the usual culprits. Freight and passenger car trucks are so short they can wobble over most stuff. And 'wobbling' is the key - the locos need to be less rigid to cope with uneven track. While springing (as found on the more expensive, less-mass-produced equipment) helps, the best solution is 'equalisation', where you arrange things so that the loco is riding on a solid driven axle and the rest are pivoted and can move up and down as the track requires.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

Has anyone in the modelling world actually tried the swinging arms between a pair of driver axles and the engine frame on each side? Takes some springs, I happened to come across that in Comstock's book on American steam engines. I forget the title. Looks fairly simple to do, but I suspect getting the springs right would be a problem. From all my reading, the only method I'm aware of in the model world is the single hard-mounted driver with the rest floating, like you said.


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

Pete I think level track issues are compounded by my 8 foot diameter curves. These tight curves though twice the size of 4 foot are barely adequate for large diesels and modern freight or passenger cars. I converted to loop connectors in the hope that they would reduce the amount of lateral stress placed on the wheel sets when going through a curve. I think this helps but you have to be a whittling artist to convert an Aristo F1 or u25b to loops and still have a decent looking train. The pennsy done right:








The GP9 not so good


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## majral (Jan 13, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/23/2009 8:49 AM
Pete,

Has anyone in the modelling world actually tried the swinging arms between a pair of driver axles and the engine frame on each side? Takes some springs, I happened to come across that in Comstock's book on American steam engines. I forget the title. Looks fairly simple to do, but I suspect getting the springs right would be a problem. From all my reading, the only method I'm aware of in the model world is the single hard-mounted driver with the rest floating, like you said.


Yes have used a form of equalisation called Compensation which is commonly used in kit and scratch building British models in the smaller scales. The idea was developed by Mike Sharman a rather controversial English modeller in the 1960s.

The whole arrangement works out very simple for the classic British 0-6-0, the trailing axle usually driven is rigid with the remaining axles floating, supported by a beam centrally pivoted between the frames, the arrangement of beams and pivots becomes increasingly compled for larger locos. 

In my own small scale experience the greatest benefit was vastly improved slow speed running, stopping and starting than with the traditional British rigid chassis thanks to improved electrical pick-up. 

I have a 32mm gauge model of a 3'6" gauge NZR 0-6-0ST under construction with full equalisation, construction stalled when I got involved in G Scale, but I would be happy to post some pictures if anyone is intrested.

Going back to the original posting a steeply sloping site (I wont say garden







) offers great challenge and opportunity for the modeller, grades, earthworks, tunnels, curves, loops spirals. My problem is the exact opposite on a flat section creating grades on a raised benchwork to create intrest and carting in dirt and fill to create mountains. The challenge is much the same in achieving a workable grade, I used cheap laser and watching those cross levels.

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Has anyone in the modelling world actually tried the swinging arms between a pair of driver axles and the engine frame on each side?


Les, 

As Majral/John posts above, it's quite common in the smaller scales. I had a gauge-O 0-6-0 (brass kit) with a solid rear axle and arms supporting the front and center bearings pivoted on a rod between the front and center. It tracked well, despite semi-scale flanges and had great electrical pickup.

My latest project (large scale, Fn3) is a 2-8-0. I prefer these days to spring the blind drivers lightly and let them move up and down a little, but the real weight is supported on the fixed rear driven axle and the front axle, which is pivoted longitudinally so it can follow the ttrack. The three-leg-stool is the two rear drivers and the center pivot on the front axle. Here's an example - not what I finally used though.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By majral on 03/24/2009 3:09 AM
Posted By Les on 03/23/2009 8:49 AM
Pete,

Has anyone in the modelling world actually tried the swinging arms between a pair of driver axles and the engine frame on each side? Takes some springs, I happened to come across that in Comstock's book on American steam engines. I forget the title. Looks fairly simple to do, but I suspect getting the springs right would be a problem. From all my reading, the only method I'm aware of in the model world is the single hard-mounted driver with the rest floating, like you said.


Yes have used a form of equalisation called Compensation which is commonly used in kit and scratch building British models in the smaller scales. The idea was developed by Mike Sharman a rather controversial English modeller in the 1960s.

The whole arrangement works out very simple for the classic British 0-6-0, the trailing axle usually driven is rigid with the remaining axles floating, supported by a beam centrally pivoted between the frames, the arrangement of beams and pivots becomes increasingly compled for larger locos. 

In my own small scale experience the greatest benefit was vastly improved slow speed running, stopping and starting than with the traditional British rigid chassis thanks to improved electrical pick-up. 

I have a 32mm gauge model of a 3'6" gauge NZR 0-6-0ST under construction with full equalisation, construction stalled when I got involved in G Scale, but I would be happy to post some pictures if anyone is intrested.

Going back to the original posting a steeply sloping site (I wont say garden







) offers great challenge and opportunity for the modeller, grades, earthworks, tunnels, curves, loops spirals. [edited]
John










John,

To begin at the last of your post, I have no wish to seem to be 'hijacking' your/the thread. To me, asking questions pertinent to, but not contained in the posted topic of, the thread seems natural. The thread can evolve then along a different path, sometimes, sometimes not. If you find this offensive, I will desist.

Now, back to equalization: I certainly would like to see any pictures you might care to post.

Are these Equalization arms sprung in any way? The prototypes are, at least in the book I alluded to. It seems an effective method, but I'm not aware that it's often seen in G gauge engines.

To the 'sloping site' topic: I have one in my back yard, though not developed. (Though I have a fantasy that someday I might. Meantime, indoors.) Since my plot slopes at roughly--very roughly in fact-- 45 degrees uphilll, with a public slope continuing beyond my property line, runoff water management would become a serious factor to reckon with. Perimeter ditching would be necessary. Actual working culverts would be required on the track lines. It'd be interesting--for a younger man.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

Your post showed up after I posted to John. I had understood the '3-legged stool' to be the hard-mounted rear drivers and the _pilot truck._ Since my layout will allow at best six-driver engine due to small curves, the idea of springing the two non-driven axles is excellent. Thank you.

Les


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I had understood the '3-legged stool' to be the hard-mounted rear drivers and the pilot truck


Les, 

A true 4-4-0 American has a fixed pivot pilot truck 'front leg' and a pair of beams bolted on either side of the firebox pivoted halfway between the axles (two more legs) resting on the top of the axle bearings for the drivers or holding the springs. Check out part 143 on this diagram: *The American Steam Lcomotive Diagram*. A rigid rear axle and floating front axle doesn't give you optimal weight on the wheels or good electrical conductivity. 

Small scale models use a fixed rear axle and an equalisation beam pivoted in front of the leading driver and behind the truck - thus the 3 legs are the two rear wheels and the pivot of the beam. This fascinating website explains it all: *[url]http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html*[/url]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

All current production Aristo steamers and most of the diesels have "swiveling" axles, i.e. the axles can equalize themselves up and down. They have an independent gearbox that can "twist" along the long axis of the motor block. 

(That said, they use a poor method of "Springing" these units, gravity does most of the equalization). 

Regards, Greg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Pete,

Okay, thanks for the pointer on weight distribution for a 4-4-0 via equalizers. I've got the two addr in my file now. My first try will be an 0-4-0 scratchbuilt from parts on hand, ala Mik's, and parts I will fabricate.

My initial notion is to use some form of track wipers, since all available wheels are plastic, though it occurred to me that the spokes and hubs might be removed and a new metal tire turned and attached w. epoxy. I think I'll go with track wipers first, to see what else I haven't thought of crops up.

Thanks for taking time to post the links.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Greg,

Wouldn't that require the side frames be able to flex in the vertical plane, assuming each axle in a truck is free to move. I don't think I understand. (A not unusual condition). 

Les


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Les

Maybe the following link will be of help.

*Scalefour Digest*
*The Principle of Model Locomotive suspension*


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks, Steve, for the link. I got the same one from Pete. Never can have too many copies.









Les


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2009)

Les, 
based on KISS - the easyest way, to cope with rough track is this: 
use the rear aixle for the drive from the motor. make fitting holes in the chassis for it. 
for the front aixle you make vertically longer holes. 
than your loco allways will be standing on four legs on smooth track, and on three on rough track. 
the only catch on the system is, that the point of gravity has to be inside both of the possible tripod-triangles. 
it further helps, if the drawbar of the loco is fixed slightly higher than the rear aixle. 










my selfmade locos were not up to the forums standard, but they ran and pulled wagons. AND did not derail (the later modells) 

korm


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Les on 03/24/2009 6:28 PM
Thanks, Steve, for the link. I got the same one from Pete. Never can have too many copies.









Les

Sorry, didn't recognize/catch the URL that Pete included, that's what I get for speed reading.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

On Aristo locos, there a LARGE slots where the axles come out of the motor block to let the axles move and down. 

See my prime mover page to see a steamer motor block. 

Regards, Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

(That said, they use a poor method of "Springing" these units, gravity does most of the equalization). 


Greg, 

Actually, you don't need *any* springing if all the axles are free to rotate along the plane of the driveshaft. I think Aristo's solution is one of the better ones. 

than your loco allways will be standing on four legs on smooth track, and on three on rough track. 


Korm, 

While your 'slot' method has merit, it doesn't have anything to force the wheels into contact with rough track. And, in practice, there will always be rough track - the reason equalization works so well is that at the contact point of the wheel, there's no way to get track so smooth and level that all four wheels are equally pressed to the rails. A properly equalized loco shows huge improvements in electrical conductivity and pulling power. 

The usual minor improvement to your slots is to add a small, light spring to the center of the axle, so that the 'down' side wheel will follow the rail. It provides better tracking on rough track, but doesn't equalize the weight or conductivity.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks to all who've taken time to post suggestions. I'm starting my benchwork this weekend, so I'll be a lot smarter by mid-summer, when I hopefully get my first loco-in-motion.









Les


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, take the "springs" (foam pads) out of your steamer and you will find that the loco will lean over and STAY that way. 

Likewise for the diesels... 

Aristo has changed and experimented with the foam pads several times, and the typical setup is to basically "lock" one gearbox in place to keep the loco upright, and let the rest flex. 

You MUST have these "springs"... otherwise there is nothing to keep your loco from listing to port or starboard. Besides oberving this directly, and determining it logically from pulling the motor blocks apart and studying them (see my "prime mover basics" page on my site), you can read the discussions of where to place the pads, and see pictures of "listing locos" on the web site, although the postings and discussion were a while ago. 

I was not trying to give Aristo a hard time, just calling a spade a spade.... it's not a well designed system when they keep trying different thicknesses and placements of foam "Springs".... 

Regards, Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Gscaletrainnut101 on 03/18/2009 3:52 PM
Pete, I guess I jumped the gun, I'm sorry. 
As soon as I get home I will up load some badly taken pictures of (as my wife has named it) My mess. Like I said my layout will be 40 ft long and 12 ft wide. On one side of the layout will be a 10 ft long 12ft wide covered shelter, where I will put my yard and train storage once its all done. That's as far as I have gotten. 

Thanks All 

After G scaletrainnut posted this , I stopped coming thinking he got helped. From his post on I have no idea where the thread took off to????
G scaletrain nut feel free to e-mail direct if you need any other help.
Marty


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By GG on 03/22/2009 8:26 PM
Posted By Bills on 03/22/2009 8:23 PM
Here's my 2 cents: If you think telling someone to do a search for their answer is rude, head over to LSC, if you say something they don't like, they will tell you to go somewhere else or call you by Goering's nick name. Nice group, real friendly. Personally I don't care what people say, I would rather search than ask a question as I hate typing. Also, I would rather post a picture than type, But that's because I like pictures and can’t type.








I lurked in this and other forums for 6 months before I felt I had something to contribute. As a newbe that may be the best way to learn. These sites exist and grow as long as people add interesting content. Bridges or buildings or novel solutions to problems. These posts usually come from people who make their first attempt after reading what others have tried. So, whats' my point? I don't know. Maybe people shouldn't be to sensitive, it's a hobby not a religion. (it's a cool hobby though)




Hear Hear ! 

Hello, and yes I am but a very slow lad... aka NEWBIE.. (Symbolic with "sue-me"?)



So, with that said and after the fact, what is this "LSC" bit? No doubt a forum of some type. 





Fill me in and I will attempt to log on... sign up and ask a simple question. Such topics l am very good at. 


If your comments are correct then I will have the opportunity to experience an environment that is strictly reserved for the best of the best? 



Have I misread this comment? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

LargeScaleCentral.com 

Post there, I'll see it. use the same username... 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/25/2009 8:45 PM
LargeScaleCentral.com 

Post there, I'll see it. use the same username... 

Regards, Greg





Working on it Greg.... email password allocation is slow. 

Need to get up @ 4:30 am tomorrow so this may need to be completed later. 


I will challenge the basics of railroading and we will see. 

gg


ie)... how may rails does a train need? being stupid here...


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By GG on 03/25/2009 8:56 PM
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/25/2009 8:45 PM
LargeScaleCentral.com 

Post there, I'll see it. use the same username... 

Regards, Greg





Working on it Greg.... email password allocation is slow. 

Need to get up @ 4:30 am tomorrow so this may need to be completed later. 


I will challenge the basics of railroading and we will see. 

gg


ie)... how may rails does a train need? being stupid here...















Well, normally I get an instant response to the initial request by email to assign a password. Not happening anytime now and I need to pack up... 

Will pursue via remote email if permitted. Hang tight. 


gg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

PS: they are reading MLS and I have been banned? UP front... 

ohhh...


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By GG on 03/25/2009 8:38 PM
Posted By GG on 03/22/2009 8:26 PM
Posted By Bills on 03/22/2009 8:23 PM









Fill me in and I will attempt to log on... sign up and ask a simple question. Such topics l am very good at. 


If your comments are correct then I will have the opportunity to experience an environment that is strictly reserved for the best of the best? 



Have I misread this comment? 

gg






Uh ... I think you may have, Re 'strictly reserved for the best of the best'.

After all,_* I'm*_ here.









Les


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

GG I don't umderstand your post. 
ON LSC general fourm there s a topic from the sites moderator called "read this" it show how unpleasent thing can get on a site.


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## LOST AND CONFUSED (Mar 7, 2008)

*I have been dealing with this problem for years. I have a very unlevel yard. I first decided where to put my first loop.I tried landscape timbers on concrete that lasted 1 year. I then tried a sand base under the timbers and put 1 inch pressure treated * wood on top screwing it into the landscape timbers. I then finally found a great solution. I used stepping stones on top of sand and then 2 layers of 
1 BY 8inch by 12 pressuretreated wood. I then interlocked them together buy using 1 8 foot then 1 12 foot and screwing them together then I added 1 by 6 inch by 12 foot pressure treated wood on top. For curves I built 4 by 4 foot platforms USING THICK DECKING BOARDS ALL THIS WAS 
ON TOP OF A SAND BASE FOR LARGER DIPS USE A STANDARD CONCRETE BLOCKS DIGGING THEM INTO GROUND AS YOU GO UP UNTIL YOU HAVE ONE ONLY SLIGHTLY BURIED I USE GRAVEL AROUND ALL THE BLOCKS TO HOLD THEM IN PLACE IT REALLY WORKS WELL SO GOOD LUCK AND TAKE YOUR TIME I have been working on my layout for 2 years and run my trains weekly with great sucess


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentlemen - it's the policy of MLS to discourage negative postings about other forums/sites. While we have no problem with other sites being mentioned here, negative commentary about them is strongly discouraged. We don't appreciate it when they allow MLS bashing on their sites, and I'm sure they don't appreciate it when it happens here. Besides, we don't want or need any bad blood between sites and nothing constructive comes from it... not for them, not for us, and not for the hobby. 

Please feel free to refer others to info posted on other sites, but keep any personally perceived problems with, or less than flattering opinions about, other sites off of MLS. Let's take the high road. 

Thanks.


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

Sorry Dwight. Won't happen again. I did not intend to bash the other site, I was trying to make a point about curtsey to fellow members. And what happens when we don't self moderate( should have taken my own advice)


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

No worries Bill, and no apology necessary. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but rather just to be a general reminder to everyone that we always try to take the high road.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been working on my layout for 2 years and run my trains weekly with great sucess


_Great! We're back to the subject. _ 
Lost And Confused (nothing shorter we can use?) - doesn't sound as if you are too lost. Burying stepping stones in gravel is similar to building a wall or track support from landscaping stones or bricks. 

Where are you, as I assume frost heave isn't a problem?


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