# Revolution/LGB Lighting Issue?



## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

I posted this initially on the Aristo Forum, but wanted to see what others here might be able to share:

First the Background..

I recently convinced a friend to try the Revolution system (I own 9 receivers and 2 transmitters). He wanted to simply hook up an onboard unit as a track side receiver in a simple loop (oval) inside his house. He runs a "stock" non-DCC/MTS LGB Mogul along with 4 of LGBs passenger cars. I personally installed the car lights from stock LGB lighting kits and stock LGB ball bearing wheels for electrical pickup. Prior to installing the revolution, the engines and cars worked flawlessly on straight DC track power for the last 3-4 years.

Here's where it gets interesting..

After successfully linking the receiver to his transmitter, we hooked up the power pack (an MRC unit) to the track power (input leads) on the adapter board. Next we hooked up the motor leads to the track. Ready to go......right......WRONG!!! The lights on the cars came on as the throttle was brought up, but the engine refused to move. The lights would occasionally go off and come back on. This coincided with a loss of signal strength on the transmitter (never got an overload indication however). We finally got the engine to move again by hooking up the engine up to straight DC power (without the cars on the track). As soon as we put one of the cars on the track, the engine would immediately stop and the lights would begin to cycle again. Once this "fault" occurred, the engine wouldn't move again under just Revolution power. To get the engine to move again you had to "reset" it by applying straight DC power.

We've experienced the same issue with both the MRC 10Amp unit and a USA trains Christmas set tranformer. We put a USAT Sierra car on the track and everything works fine, so we've isolated the problem to the car lights.

There are no shorts of any kind on the car lights and any single car causes the problem. We've verified continuity between the left wheel pickups (one on each truck). We did the same for the right side. The couplers are truck mounted so that we can't inadvertently have a truck turned around. I looked at the light boards and didn't see any types of capacitors or resistors on the board. The only other thing that seems unusual is that this receiver has a distinct "hum" unlike any of the other 9 that I own. 

What's with the LGB light system being incompatible with the Revo system? There definately appears to be some type of compatabilty issue between the Revolution receivers and the LBG lighting. Any idea Why?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Revolution trackside unit needs a constant, filtered DC input. My guess would be that neither the MRC nor the USA transformer are supplying that. (I'm almost certain the starter-set power supply isn't.) The instructions say to use Aristo's 6-capacitor board in conjunction with any power supply that isn't regulated, filtered DC voltage. Make sure you're not feeding the unit AC as opposed to DC. It may be that the AC (or perhaps pulse-width-modulation) is sufficient to get the board to quasi-function to power the lights, since they can run off of AC or DC. The "humming" really leads me to think the motor is getting some kind of AC signal that's essentially freezing it in place. That's where I'd begin my troubleshooting. Get a power supply that you know is smooth, filtered DC voltage. A car battery or battery pack of some kind will work if you don't have a good regulated power supply. Hook that up to the power inputs, and check things out. 

Later, 

K


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Sounds to me like you are simply overloading the "Revolution". They claim 5 amps continuous power. How many amps are your lighted cars drawing? (Connect an ammeter in series with the track power to determine this).


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

Del, My buddy measured 1.8 Amps for the engine and the cars. Also this same problem existed with a different Revolution receiver (that also hummed) until it burned up. I plan to test again with either a battery or my Bridgewerks "pure DC" power supply.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The MRC 10 amp unit is constant DC. The filtering required by the Revo is to eliminate short term power interruptions. (yes pulse power will make it nuts too, but that does not seem to be the problem) 

So, let's forget the power supply issue... if you have really the same problem, i.e. ONE LGB car on the tracks will cause the problem, and it happens with both transformers, I would start by putting an ammeter in series with one of the motor leads leading to the track and watch the current when the problem occurs. 

I'm thinking there is a regulator circuit somewhere in the LGB car that somehow is varying the load to make the Revo nuts. 

Just verify this "reduced" situation, one car, ammeter, and both power supplies. 

The revo should not hum, UNLESS both your power supplies are putting out pulses... I have the MRC 10 amp, it is NOT a pulse system... try setting it to about 16 volts, so that the Revo for sure has enough voltage... remember it won't run well around 12 volts. (a blown diode in the power supply could be putting out pulses, and that would explain a "hum") 

Let us know what you find. There is an OUTSIDE possibility that both your power supplies are bad... trying a third one is not a bad idea just to eliminate this. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

When we were testing, we had the MRC unit set to 16V so the receiver should have been getting sufficient power. The "hum" was present as soon as we linked the receiver to the transmitter (no load on the reciever). My buddy tried last night to continue troubleshooting. He setup a straight 5' section of test track on his bench and attached the motor leads from the reciever to the test track using alligator clips. He intended to measure the voltage and amperage the car was drawing to help isolate the problem based on questions others had from the Aristo Forum. Without even putting a car on the track yet, he powered up the system and went to measure the voltage across the rails. As soon as he did this the receiver started smoking... It's now dead as a doornail and headed back to Aristo. He and I are just wondering if this could be a bad batch of receivers as they are brand new and likely from the recent shipment.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Aristo has had some assembly problems recently, the "Backwards polarity electrolytic capacitor" is very recent. Since this is a new product, seems that there could be some teething problems. 

A number of people have been using them with no problems, although it seems you have one from a second production run. 

Aristo will definitely want yours back, they have a lot of the company riding on the Revolution. 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Bret W Tesson on 01 Oct 2010 01:51 PM 
... He intended to measure the voltage and amperage the car was drawing to help isolate the problem based on questions others had from the Aristo Forum. Without even putting a car on the track yet, he powered up the system and went to measure the voltage across the rails. As soon as he did this the receiver started smoking... It's now dead as a doornail ...


Could it be that he still had the meter set to measure amps? If so, he placed a direct short across the motor driver!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Could be Del, depending on the meter scale, if it was over 3 amps or so, I would think the meter would hold a nice short. It's a possibility. Easy to check, what is the meter set to now? If it has not been touched and is still on amps, sounds very possible. 

Worth investigating, if for no other reason to rule out the possibility. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

Del and Greg, That's the first thing I asked him. He hadn't used it since he burned up the receiver and verified it was still set to Volts/DC when I asked. He also remembers immediately measuring the output voltage on the transfomer (16V) immediately after it burned up. He's since sent his two "toasted" receivers in to Aristo for repair. This also brings up a good question. If there is a short in the car that's causing this, why didn't the fuses protect the receiver? How would that be any different than a derailment/short not causing the same thing. Navin didn't have a good answer for that when querried and told my buddy that these onboard receivers weren't intended for this purpose (huh?). 

If we get a chance this weekend, I may have him bring one of the cars over and hook it up to one of my first run receivers and a bridgewerks power supply. I want to take a closer look at the lighting boards, see if the problem persists on my equipment and last, remove the track pickups from one truck. If we ever get this figured out, I'll let everyone know. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, while still not good news for you and your buddy, all the other possibilities have been eliminated as far as I can tell. 

Yeah, a short in the car does not make sense since they work on DC OK. 

Thanks for sharing this information, it helps others that might be in the same situation, and of course helps us better judge how to spend our hard-earned $$. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

OK. After two more hours of research, we've figured out a few things. First off the "hum" from the receiver disappeared after being hooked up to a Bridgewerks power supply. Second, the cycling of the lights (along with loss of signal on the transmitter) stopped when hooked up to the Bridgewerks. We now get good constant lighting. Just to duplicate the problem, we re-hooked up the USA trains transformer and the "hum" returned. It appears the "hum" is caused by an unfiltered power supply. 

Thinking we had everything now figured out (i.e. it was the tranformer...dummy), we placed one of the lighted cars and the Mogul on the track (using the Bridgewerks power supply). The lights come on in the car, but the engine refused to move. We removed the car from the track (with the throttle still up) and the engine takes off. We then let the engine run (without the car on the track) and then placed the car on the track and the engine continues to run just fine. We stopped the engine, and brought the throttle back up (on the transmitter) and the lights come on, but the engine still refuses to move. To further test, we placed a USA Sierra car with lights on the track and brought the throttle up and the engine ran just fine. Just for kicks we placed a USA Streamline car on the track and brought the throttle up and the engine refused to move. We then removed the streamline car from the track (with the throttle still up) and the engine takes off. So it appears that THIS LGB mogul is very sensitive to lighting in cars. Why I have no idea. 

We tried one last test thinking that perhaps the LGB Mogul didn't like to startup with ANY KIND of current draw on the track. I pulled out my Aristo E-8s and 9 stream line cars (with no lights on) and also placed the LGB mogul (by itself) on the same loop. I brought up the power on my Trackside Revolution and everything ran just fine. I then turned the lights ON in one of the streamline cars and the Mogul refused to move again. As soon as I flipped the light switch to off, the Mogul took off. 

I certainly have less hair than when I started. These kind of electronic "quirks" can drive one to the bar!!!


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Bret Tesson* http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...458/aff/98/showthread.php?p=156979#post156979
I certainly have less hair than when I started. These kind of electronic "quirks" can drive one to the bar!!!

Bret........ it sounds like the mogul is wired opposite polarity from the cars or vice versa... go figure..... 

Try something else. 

If the locomotive doesn't work with the streamline car on the track and the light switch on, 180 the car and see what happens.... 

Again more things for you to lose hair over.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds nuts... it sounds like the Revolution is sensitive to almost any changes in the situation. 

Do you have two "working" Revolutions now, or just one? I'd not rule out the Revolution until you get a second one. 

Also, you mentioned before you tried 2 power supplies, the USAT one and an MRC one. 

Does the MRC one still make it hum? Boy if you have to have filtered DC to run the Revo, what a limitation. I can run my QSI decoders from anything, filtered or not. 

Regards, Greg


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg, At this point, I wouldn't say the Revolution is sensitive...but then LGB Mogul certainly is when used with PWM. Every other engine we've tried works fine with the Revolution..it's just this Mogul and some lighted cars. We never got a chance to try the MRC power pack (he only brought over the USA one), so I can't say whether the hum is present with that transformer. I'll ask my buddy to check that. The receiver we used for bench testing today was a known "good" one from my stock. As I mentioned we also used my new trackside receiver for some of the tests with the same results. His two units are in for repair at Aristo. By the way, it looks like he may have fried one of them accidentally by forgetting to move the voltmeter leads from the amperage inputs while trying to measure voltage.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmmm... well these details change things a bit. I would suspect the USAT power supply, it might be PWM and you don't know it. The original posts seemed to indicated it was tested with the MRC. 

I'm thinking there is some electronics in the LGB, like a decoder. Have you actually opened it and verified? 

Something still does not make sense. 

Well, onward and upward! 

Greg


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

You know it never hurts to check the manual. My buddy read through the LGB Mogul owners manual tonight and it apparently does have an MTS decoder on board (I had no idea..this was the basic undecorated version). My buddy also owned another LGB Mogul (an older one) that has no mention of MTS in the owner manual. That one works fine with the LGB lighted cars on the track when powered by the Revolution...so I think it's safe to say this whole thing can be traced to the MTS decoder in the engine being incompatible with the Rev receiver. I suggested he purchase one of the Aristo conversion boards (their pretty cheap) that convert the PWM output to linear. That should solve the compatibility issue. 

One last thing..he also hooked up the MRC 10A pack to the Rev receiver and it also causes the receiver to hum. I don't think this is a big deal, but it sounds like the receiver is happier with a filtered DC power supply.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I doubt the AC pwm converter has the capability of actually powering the LGB loco. I understand it is designed purely for use on board with on board control for a sound system that does not like pwm, such as the Sierra. 

The LGB decoder can usually be removed and the DIP switches set accordingly for DC operation. Then the loco should run just fine on a PWM throttle. 
If the decoder cannot be removed you should only run the loco on regular linear DC, and not pwm. 

However, that does not explain the coach causing a problem. My guess it too has a decoder, or some device that has excess capacitance, on board


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Howdy, 

Going by my limited experience, the Revo does seem to need pure DC. When I first tried my set, the only DC power source I had available was the fixed DC output on an old MRC Tech II pack. There was enough AC getting through that the Revo wouldn't function. It didn't want to link and as I recall it hummed and got pretty hot as well. I added the 6 capacitor board ( the single unit version wasn't out yet ) and it worked much better. I don't remember if the capacitor board completely eliminated the hum though. 

I now use it with a different DC power supply ( currently on the 13.8V setting since I don't run very fast ) and the hum disappeared. The receiver doesn't get very warm either. The capacitor board doesn't seem to be needed anymore so I never hooked it back up. 

I only have the one receiver that came with the set. Since I only have one locomotive on the track at a time, I have the receiver wired directly between the power supply and the track like the old style Train Engineer. The adjustable start voltage is a nice feature when used this way and it can be quickly adjusted when I change from one loco to another. I will probably end up leaving it this way instead of installing receivers in each locomotive. 

Scott


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Now that all the facts are known, I would say that that explains the entire problem.









The MTS decoder is not necessary when installing a REVOLUTION receiver and vice versa. He should choose which system he wants to run. 

The adapter board probably will not solve the problem. The MTS decoder is DCC controlled but can run on DC but sounds like it's wired in reverse polarity to the REVOLUTION receiver.

Glad you found the problem and that neither system is at fault. They just won't work together. 

The older mogul is wired for straight DC and would be most compatible with the REVOLUTON system. I've wired about 10 of them and they all work just fine by themselves and with lighted cars.


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

Tony and Stan, Thanks for the insight. Since neither of us have a clue about MTS, there's no plan to use that system especially since he want to utilize the Revolution. It sounds like it might be easiest to remove the decoder (I have no idea how to do that and hope that it's a separate board inside the engine). Also, Sierra cars came without lights. The LGB light kits (2 wires and board leads to a single socket) are very simple and don't include any type of decoder, so I'm still a little confused why some lighted coaches affect the engine operation. 

I'm also still hopeful the Aristo conversion board (PWM to Linear) might do the trick. I plan to ask Navin that tomorrow as this could impact MY own operations. I run both track and battery power and have found that my Sierra sound cards don't like PWM (particularly the diesels). Originally, the trackside unit (which I now own) was supposed to have both capabilities. For some reason, Aristo decided to leave out the linear option. Some of my lash ups include multiple engines that include these sound cards and draw lots of power. I had planned to put the conversion board between the trackside unit and the track, but it sounds like that may not work as the current draw from these consists is going to be pretty high 5-10 Amps. I'm not that familiar with what it takes to convert the PWM signal to linear, but I was sure hoping the board would do the trick and not be limited to some very low amperage capability. Otherwise, I guess I would have to put a conversion board in each engine that has sound. Sure would have been easier if they had kept to their word and put in the linear capability.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Brett, 
I am confident that the AC linear board cannot be used as a PWM converter when fitted between a track side controller and the track. 
It is simply not designed for that. The maximum current it can handle is likely about 1 amp. Enough for a Sierra sound system. 
I do not know if the PWM to Linear converter can be used on board a loco when that loco is powered and controlled by a track side system. As I understand it, it was designed to be used with a REVOLUTION on board so that the SIERRA would work as it should. Just like my old # SSI-12v5 does. 

It is not a simple matter to convert a PWM output controller to Linear DC. That capability needs to be designed into a controller from the start, like AC did with the regular track side TE. 

I would be very interested to hear what Navin has to say about this and whether or not AC will be offering a PWM to Linear converter that can handle the loads of a track powered system. 

In the meantime, I believe the instruction book that came with the LGB loco will have instructions on how to remove the DCC decoder, if in fact it can actually be removed, and how to set the DIP switches for DC operation. 
One other thing you should consider is that if the LGB loco has a sound system, it too will not like the PWM.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

You can program an onboard MTS decoder to either run when it sees DC or to be locked out of DC mode. The default is that it will run under DC. My guess is that it sees the revolution output as a DCC signal, and won't run because it isn't seeing any real DCC information. So it's not really just PWM, and it's not DCC either--it's a bastardized version of both. It's sitting there waiting for an address/command. If it was regular PWM output like the old TE used to be able to use, I bet it would run just fine. The problem is the revolution output must look too much like a DCC output. You were able to trick the decoder into thinking it was back to DC the odd time by altering the signal (putting the car on/off the track) so smoothing the revolution output a little should fix it.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

DCC decoders do not like any form of PWM. This is not limited to the REVOLUTION, but applies to all PWM output ESC's 

Simply smoothing the REVOLUTION output will overload the ouput drivers. They do not like capacitance. Period. 
Linear ouput has to be part of the original design. I know of no way to add it later without compromising the performance of the PWM output.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB/Massoth decoders will run on normal PWM...there has to be something different about the Revolution output. Bizarre...but then it IS A/C. 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith. 
Can you show me in writing where LGB/Massoth say it is OK to use PWM on the power input please? 
I can assure you that all of the LGB decoders I have come across do not like to be powered by PWM on the track pick ups. 
Especially if they have sound as well. LGB themselves tell you not to use PWM. They tell you to use only Filtered Linear DC. Right there in the instruction books. 


No offence, but, are you sure you are not confusing the need for a linear input with the output of the DCC decoders, which is normally PWM.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I caused some confusion, sorry Tony. When I say they will run under PWM what I mean to say is that they will at least move, not just sit there and do nothing like he is experiencing. They might not like it, but at least they'll move. That's what makes me think it's seeing that output as DCC and just waiting for a command. 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps it could be best explained by saying that not all PWM outputs are exactly the same. 
Different PWM outputs would cause various DCC decoders to behave differently. 
1. Some DCC decoders will run almost normally. 
2. I have known DCC decoders to change and even lose their programming. 
3. In extreme cases I know of DCC decoders being fried. 
My advice is do not use PWM to drive locos with DCC decoders inside. 

I don't think you can blame the output of the REVOLUTION per se, for this odd behaviour.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I wasn't trying to attribute blame, or suggest it's a good idea to run PWM--merely trying to explain why his loco wouldn't run. 
Out of curiousity I'm going to hook the motor output from a decoder to a test track, and try running one of my LGB engines on it. I'll try varying the motor frequency PMW and see if that affects the loco. I suspect that the Revo output frequency is relatively low. 

Keith


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Actually the best test would be to run a DCC (or similar) equipped loco on a test track driving it with the PWM output of a DCC or other "receiver". You will most likely have problems as the track powered, DCC equipped loco tries to decide if it is receiving a DCC signal and interpret it. If the PWM input is similar enough to a DCC (or similar) pattern it will try to interpret the signals. When it gives up, it will just sit there with big eyes wondering why you mistreat it (picture high school teenager being asked to clean their room, as puddle of drool pools around their feet). 

I wonder if my MRC Control Master 20 in PWM mode will confuse DCC? Since I own no DCC equipment I guess I will be happily in the dark. Maybe I will invest in DCC for N gauge and play with it indoors where it was designed to operate.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I run DCC, Russ, so that's why I was going to use a decoder to test the locos. You are suggesting the same thing that I did above, which is that the decoder thinks it's getting real DCC but it's not. Close, but no cigar. 

Keith


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith. 
No offence again, but you were not specific. You just said you would use a decoder powering a test track to test one of your LGB locos. You didn't say it was to be an LGB DCC equipped loco.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

No offence taken, Tony! I need to do less typing and more proofreading! 
I'll let you know what happens... 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Oct 2010 07:33 PM 
Hmmm... well these details change things a bit. I would suspect the USAT power supply, it might be PWM and you don't know it. The original posts seemed to indicated it was tested with the MRC. 
*
I'm thinking there is some electronics in the LGB, like a decoder. Have you actually opened it and verified? *

Something still does not make sense. 

Well, onward and upward! 

Greg 
Sometimes it pays to check the basic assumptions when nothing else makes sense.

Greg


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

OK this may have been said but here goes again. 
You cannot use a LGB decoder with any OTHER type of decoder/controller. If you are going to use the reveloution you must remove the LGB decoder(s)..it will not work in conjunction with another in the electrical path. (say either air Wire or the reveloution). 

I have used the Air Wire in a box car with a Uintah with a 2 LGB decoders inside the Uintah. It ran very jerky to the point of stopping and such. I removed the decoders and the Uintah worked like a charm with the Air Wire! 
If you remove the LGB decoders from the engine it will work fine with the revolution..if it is not working you must assume that there is a decoder of somekind inside the engine..OR the car in question..but I was not aware that LGB placed decoders inside any cars EXCEPT for some mogul tenders..say the # 7 mogul...that I have to control the sound functions on the earlier versions...not sure about the later models. 

LGB does not like PWM, with decoders....straight DC maybe not sure. 

These facts I know first hand. 

You can also use the MTS with battery with the parallel signalling central station if you want battery power with MTS..again I know this first hand, and do run it that way. 

Remember you can mix coke with rum, but you cannot mix LGB decoders with the revolution, or any other decoders...either 1 or the other. 

MHO


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll point out one small exception to Bubba's comment: Some people put the 27 MHz Aristo "trackside" unit in a train. Later models do indeed have an output that can be switched to "linear". In this single, limited case, you could feed the output of this TE to the input of a decoder that has a "DC" mode, like LGB/Massoth/Zimo/QSI/et. al. 

I just pointed this out because someone is most likely doing this and would say Bubba was wrong. This is one very specific exception to what Bubba said. I agree with Bubba straight down the line, especially about rum and coke... ha ha! 

Greg


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Again I must state that you cannot use another control system with LGB decoders installed inside an engine. LGB does not like PWM. If you are sending any signal; through the power source the LGB will not like the combo and run erratically. 

If you are going to use the Aristo TE then take out the LGB decoders, if you are going to use AirWire remove the LGB decoders...likewise with any of the others 

Stick to one and run with it...OR use all in seperate engines as I have all of them and run them all independantly of each other and like variety, but OLD Airwire is still my fav!...of course battery powered MTS. 
Nuff said. MHO


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have used a non-polarized capacitor on track power for the Aristo reverser and it cures many ills including the ping of engines starting up. 

Possibly the right non-polarized cap will negate PWM for LGB decoders and it would eliminate lots of rewiring. 

PS, this is what Aristo does for linear mode on the 27mhz unit, a capacitor is used before the reversing relays to smooth out the waveform produced by the mosfet circuit. 

Since the cap is usd before the relays they did not need the non-polarized version. Of course, this was a designed in feature, not a consumer add-on.


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