# Learning the hard way



## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Found out today the FEF is need of some serious repairs. This not an ASTER problem but an ART GIbson problem. I have not been playing as close attention to water levels and subsequently, a boiler is in need of repair. It was repaired and Art again failed to watch water level as close as he shud have. Also tried to put water into hoy boiler while it was close to being dry. Need I say more. Part of my
problem is trying to do two things at one time, running the engine and videoing. Hence there will be no more vo=ideo made by me when I am running the engines. 
I am posting this to make others aware that it can happen


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry to hear this Art! So did it bust a seam, distort, or ?? Any picture?

Not trying to rub salt in the wound!

Greg 1,141


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Sorry to hear Art, this is exactly why we all harped on young Nate to not try to video with his smartphone and run the #24 at the same time. Hope you get her repaired soon. Mike


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Art, 


so sorry to hear what happend. Maybe a more powerful axle pump would help? i dunno. I ALMOST ruined the #24 back in winter. ran the boiler dry and go t so hot it made the boiler fittings turn a bluish gray color and softened the spring in the safety valve along with the silver solder. if i would have added water it would have certainly destroyed the boiler. hope you can get if fixed without it costing too much.


PS did you get your other SR&RL back yet?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Sorry to hear this Art! So did it bust a seam, distort, or ?? Any picture?
> 
> Not trying to rub salt in the wound!
> 
> Greg 1,141


Greg
She is in the hands of the best there is to do the repair. I have not seen her or pics yet but I am sure if I ask for them, they would be available. New boiler has been ordered from Aster/Accucraft at about 40% 
higher than they were last year. That is reason I said be careful.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Art
Sorry to hear you damaged such a beautiful engine
I have the same problem trying to video and run engines at the same time.
I get more videos of the shrubs and my feet than the train

It seems to be a two man job


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

How do you know it is damaged? Are you just assuming it is damaged because you put water in it when it was hot and dry or could you see visible damage or an indication of damage (water leaking or failed pressure test)?


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Semper Vaporo said:


> How do you know it is damaged? Are you just assuming it is damaged because you put water in it when it was hot and dry or could you see visible damage or an indication of damage (water leaking or failed pressure test)?


 The engine is at TRS and had been examined and it has been taken apart awaiting the new boiler.
I had shipped it to TRS after it jumped from the track at Zube Park. While doing the repairs on the engine, Ryan found that the boiler was damaged. Not by the fall but from the heat and dry boiler.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

That's pretty cool that you can buy a new boiler from Aster


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill
Very limited availability for owners of a specific locomotive. In the past not offered as a "open market" item.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I wasn't thinking of getting one for a build just nice to know that if one does go bad one doesn't have to resort to a custom build or repair .
I don't think Accucraft has replacement boilers. Do they?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So since everyone that touched the boiler is here, would someone indicate how it is damaged, and what signs indicated that?

It appears that I'm not the only curious person, and not the only one who has asked. I'm trying to learn from the experts.

Greg 1,140


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So since everyone that touched the boiler is here, would someone indicate how it is damaged, and what signs indicated that?
> 
> It appears that I'm not the only curious person, and not the only one who has asked. I'm trying to learn from the experts.
> 
> Greg 1,140


Greg
I will see if Ryan will get pics of damage to satisfy all the curiosoty. Suffice it to say when Ryan was putting water in the engine to test it, the water just went straight thru the boiler. The seams had been destroyed due to overheating. As I said in first post, I let the boiler go dry and tried to regroup and I failed.' 
I will see if Ryan will share pics . If i ask I think he will for the sake of others who would like to avoid the smae.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Art, that was what I wanted, that must have been really disappointing.

I was thinking that to warrant replacement, it must have been leaking, not just distorted.

Thanks again Art,

Greg 1,139


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I am surprised that an alcohol boiler would be damaged by adding water as soon as it has run dry.
Something that I have to admit doing myself many years ago when I was young and foolish.
I can see maybe a gas fired boiler with the burner going full blast might get hot enough, but once the water has run out on an alcohol loco, there is not any draft to keep the fire that hot.
Maybe Aster used better seamless copper in those days, if indeed when Art says seams, he is talking a real seam.
The soldered joints certainly should not give way.
We will have to wait until Ryan and Charles give us the details.
Cheers,
David


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Well, I am surprised that an alcohol boiler would be damaged by adding water as soon as it has run dry.
> Something that I have to admit doing myself many years ago when I was young and foolish.
> I can see maybe a gas fired boiler with the burner going full blast might get hot enough, but once the water has run out on an alcohol loco, there is not any draft to keep the fire that hot.
> Maybe Aster used better seamless copper in those days, if indeed when Art says seams, he is talking a real seam.
> ...


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

artgibson said:


> David Leech said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I am surprised that an alcohol boiler would be damaged by adding water as soon as it has run dry.
> ...


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Art,

Like Nate says it happens. I was chatting with some folks at the Domes in Milwaukee when the safety on my Roundhouse Sammie shot about 50 feet in the air into a pond....it is so easy to get distracted. It was a very embarrassing moment and frustrating to have that happen. It is fortunate that the hobby has great people like the Bednariks to assist where manufacturers often cannot.

I look forward to seeing a still picture of her sometime....

Best,
Sam


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> Art, dont feel Bad. there is NOT a SINGLE person in this hobby who hasnt made a mistake- I know it is in good hands with ryan. Take care!
> 
> Nate


Nate, 
That is a stupid statement to make, especially from someone so new to the hobby.
Do you know all the thousands of people in this hobby now, and in the past.
I don't think so.
Regards,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I bet there is not a MARRIED person that has not made a mistake, too. And being married is not necessarily the mistake!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, I never have made a mistake! ha ha!

David, I would agree that Nate does not know all the people in this hobby (and his sentence says "in" so don't count those who have passed on)... I'll grant you that.

But, there's no reason to call someone stupid, besides violating the "be nice rules", I'd bet that Nate is right.... please find someone who has never made a mistake in this hobby... I'd take that bet for sure.

Let's not get into name calling when Nate's effort was to be nice to someone.

Greg 1,136


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

I think the photos will speak for themselves, but the (perhaps not so) short explanation is below the link for those interested.








 FEF boiler photos

This particular incident is a prolonged overheating exposure. I would guess this was probably at least 20 minutes, but cannot prove this without another destructive test. 
So, for an indeterminate amount of time, the boiler was kept under fire without water in it via the draft fan. This is evident by the coloration of the copper. That purple-black color is usually only seen with annealing or silver soldering work after the work has cooled. Further evidence showed in that many pipes, etc that were originally work hardened copper were all annealed and in some cases, had deformed from original specifications. The coked seals and o-rings (as seen in the one photo of the throttle sealing o-ring) are also a result of this prolonged overheating. 

This is not just a short term running dry incident. The boiler was exposed to a constant heat source for a lengthy (and undetermined) amount of time. The nature of the FEF boiler, with 12 flues and a lot of copper to act as a large heat sink is very effective at holding the heat and concentrating it at points. The highest heat concentration on this boiler is at the rear flue sheet, given the flame path of this JVR Type C design. 

Keep that in mind when you think about silver braze. 45% Silver braze (common in boiler work) has a liquidus temp of 1370F (743 in Metric) and a solidus temp of 1225F (663C). That leaves a transition envelope of 145F (62C) where the braze is cooling to true solid form. 56% is even lower liquidus temp 1205F (652C) and a smaller envelope of 60F (15C) to go to true solid. 

That may seem immaterial, but the concentration of heat and prolonged overheating period means the boiler could have (and in fact did) reached these temperatures. All it would take is a small amount into the envelope to get the braze into a 'pudding skin' state. While in this state, the braze is susceptible to being moved by anything with a little pressure behind it. 

Pressure, the final factor. All it would take is a few small inputs of cold water to make an instantaneous flash steam event. The boiler likely went straight to 4 bar maximum working pressure when the braze joints were at their most susceptible. Likely this exploited some joints with incomplete penetration or perhaps it was impeccable timing? 

Compounding this fact is the position of the check valve on the boiler. It is located directly above the flue nest on the rear flue sheet. The input of cold water to this cherry red boiler would have caused some serious thermodynamic stresses to occur. Braze joints are not impervious to cracking under the right circumstances. The sudden shrinking of the tubes from cold water flashing off while the braze is in the transition envelope would certainly open up the joints and can cause pinholes to form. Hence why you do not quench braze joints in water until the material is fully cooled. 

Willing to entertain any other questions on this subject.


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

Hi Ryan
Yes there was severe overheating but...

If the pin hole at the tube in the boiler was the only leak, I would say that there was a defective solder job and the pin hole was filled with christolized flux which withstood the cold pressure test and then melted at 400-500 F.

My thought is that Aster has some skin in this game.

I would think that all of your labor should be borne by Art but the new boiler should be handled under warranty by Aster unless there is something I am missing.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think we should all butt out and let the owner and his mechanic figure out what they are doing.

Ryan - thanks for the explanation.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill,

That is a combination of photos. The pin holes are from the first overheat last year, which was a 50/50 causation. As you say, a pinhole with flux, exposed by overheating. 

I haven't yet stripped the boiler down this time, but a quick inspection of the flue sheet through the fire door shows at least three failed braze joints, not caused by flux deposits. There are visible signs of the blowout of semi-molten braze in addition to the flue sheet braze joint having opened up at the bottom of the boiler, right where you'd expect. 

The overheating automatically supersedes any fault of the manufacturer in this position, suspect joints or not. 

Will document that for all to see as well.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm really learning here and it is interesting, I hope it's not painful for Art, but it sure is nice to really understand some of this in detail.

Greg 1,135


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I'm really learning here and it is interesting, I hope it's not painful for Art, but it sure is nice to really understand some of this in detail.
> 
> Greg 1,135


Greg the only real painful thing is "How did I let it get away from me". I dont blame anyone but myself. This did happen on one of our public run days and there is always a lot of "Whatca doin" fom the little tikes. Got distracted and when I saw it was low on water and I did not realize just how how shw was.That is when I added water and that exshatcerbated (siC the situation.
I have not looked at the pics yet. Will do so and have me breakdown.
May have to take more out of my retirement account.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> I think the photos will speak for themselves, but the (perhaps not so) short explanation is below the link for those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the explanation Ryan. As I said earlier.No more videos unless someone else is taking them. And I will try not to let the little ones distract me.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Hey, I never have made a mistake! ha ha!
> 
> David, I would agree that Nate does not know all the people in this hobby (and his sentence says "in" so don't count those who have passed on)... I'll grant you that.
> 
> ...


Greg,
IF you read my message, I said that it was a stupid thing to say, I did not in any way shape or form suggest that Nate is stupid.
Now define mistake - which in this context is doing something that causes massive damage to a live steam locomotive.
I know a lot of people in this hobby who have never done such a thing.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

David, I DID read your post and here it is:

You said that Nate made a stupid statement. That IS calling someone stupid. I *stand *by my comments to you. Unnecessary, unkind, and really just downright silly about "knowing all the thousands of people in the hobby".

Nate's intentions were kind, yours are not.




David Leech said:


> Nate,
> That is a stupid statement to make, especially from someone so new to the hobby.
> Do you know all the thousands of people in this hobby now, and in the past.
> I don't think so.
> ...



Greg 1,134


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Greg,
> IF you read my message, I said that it was a stupid thing to say, I did not in any way shape or form suggest that Nate is stupid.
> Now define mistake - which in this context is doing something that causes massive damage to a live steam locomotive.
> I know a lot of people in this hobby who have never done such a thing.
> ...


David
I dont want to get caught up in some crap, but are you implying that I am the only one who has done
such a thing. Maybe they have and have not had the nerve to talk about it.
One thing I failed to mention. I have been using the aux tenders and maybe relied on them too much. I will watch more closely now.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to point out the obvious, but if we could stick to the task at hand it would be appreciated. Let's not get caught up on who did what to who. It takes away from the message conveyed.

The intent of the original message was to alert people about watching their boiler water, no railfanning your own train and perhaps most importantly, be attentive to your engine (and track ahead of it) while running. 

Back to your (irregularly scheduled) program.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Thank you for posting the updates Ryan, kind of like the M&M doctors have after a patient passes. Assess what was done, and what an be done better. If Art had not injected water, just removed the fan and shut off the fuel/blew up the wicks, would the boiler been ok, or was to much overheating damage done at that point? I try to chat while others are running thier engines. With our group, if someone wants to shoot video, all you have to do is ask someone to watch your engine so you an take some pics. Or they an shoot video or pics with your phone/camara . Keep the pics coming Ryan as you do your tear down. It will be a good learning experience for everyone. I would suggest an article for steam in the garden magazine with color pics of the old boiler next to the replacement to reinforce how it should and shouldn't look. Many newbies into the hobby have zero mechanical background or steam experience. This, while so unfortunate for Art, can be turned into an excellent learning experience for everybody in small scale live steam. We all make mistakes, were human=not perfect. Whats important is learning from them Mike


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> Not to point out the obvious, but if we could stick to the task at hand it would be appreciated. Let's not get caught up on who did what to who. It takes away from the message conveyed.
> 
> The intent of the original message was to alert people about watching their boiler water, no railfanning your own train and perhaps most importantly, be attentive to your engine (and track ahead of it) while running.
> 
> Back to your (irregularly scheduled) program.


Thank you Ryan, I get caught up when I shud just be quiet.
Art


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Greg,
Then I happily leave this MLS forum.
Goodbye,
David


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> Not to point out the obvious, but if we could stick to the task at hand it would be appreciated. Let's not get caught up on who did what to who. It takes away from the message conveyed.
> 
> The intent of the original message was to alert people about watching their boiler water, no railfanning your own train and perhaps most importantly, be attentive to your engine (and track ahead of it) while running.
> 
> Back to your (irregularly scheduled) program.


'the track ahead"... I have messed that one up TWICE! Ouch! A copper balloon "flying" 4-ft. to the ground!


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## doublereefed (Jan 3, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> Art,
> 
> Like Nate says it happens. I was chatting with some folks at the Domes in Milwaukee when the safety on my Roundhouse Sammie shot about 50 feet in the air into a pond....it is so easy to get distracted. It was a very embarrassing moment and frustrating to have that happen. It is fortunate that the hobby has great people like the Bednariks to assist where manufacturers often cannot.
> 
> ...


Sam, I want to hear more about that one! Was the safety loosely in the bushing? 

Best!

-Richard


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> The intent of the original message was to alert people about watching their boiler water


I am guilty of not realizing how much water was being consumed in my Accucraft EBT #12, which only has a tender pump. Running up Roger's 3% hills with 11 hoppers and a coach behind really used the steam. And being on the hill might not have helped when I stopped to look.
On at least one occasion I pumped water in to the boiler and heard a 'hiss' as it hit the hot flue - which must have been partly exposed. I did get away with no damage - the engine still steams as beautifully as it did the first time - better, in fact.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Art, Ryan;
Opportunity knocks. Make some improvements to the water level reading while you're rebuilding;

Add a larger diameter water gauge glass, i.e., 6mm dia.
Add a reflector with diagonal lines (behind the glass) so water level easier to read.
Don't forget an LED to illuminate it all.
And, most important, add a blowdown valve to the bottom of the water gauge.

_I think that about covers the collection of suggested water level reading improvements from this forum over 15+ years
_

Bonus; Add a water level detection probe that triggers a red light if the water drops below a safe level. If you're making a boiler you just add one extra bushing. There are probably a dozen or more write-up on making probes in the years of G1MRA Newsletter and Journal as well as on the G1MRA website and Yahoo Forum in the files section. 
.
.

Art, one last suggestion, with tongue planted firmly in cheek, buy a timer you can wear with a loud alarm and wear it when you're steaming. Remind yourself to check the water level. 
This clips to your belt and ugly enough you'll never loose it.







.

Happy safe steaming.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> Art, Ryan;
> Opportunity knocks. Make some improvements to the water level reading while you're rebuilding;
> 
> Add a larger diameter water gauge glass, i.e., 6mm dia.
> ...


 Did not wear a timer but Zube today I was able to make two loops before I had to pump water. Axle pump working but not getting into boiler. Some stoppage someplace and will get it fixed sometime in future. I watched very closely for low water. Over one gallon of water today, three sold hours of S-2 running and no video. 
Some of my friends made video I am going to try to get it off their phones.
Mid 90;s with little breze.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Being distracted is one of a small scale live steamers' worse enemy, but there are other gremlins at work: Once at an exhibition where someone was running a single cylinder vintage diesel nearby, I blew the flues on my Chapelon boiler in a similiar occurence. I am used to running on my own garden pike where out side of birds and a plane or two, there are literally no noises, so I got used to running by ear. At that exhibition that diesel was making such a racket that I was unable to distinguish between no more meth or no more water. I thought the meth had run out and after two or three minutes pumped up and then the blower went off like mad and I folded an inner flue! It turned out that that flue was 0,6 mm or six tenth of a millimeter thick. A bit light for an inner flue and it of course folded onto the superheater. A British friend fixed it for me and rebrazed the supperheater, it has stood up since. He used slightly thicker tube for the new flue. But beware of distraction and noisy atmospheres. 

The best is to be overly careful with the water level, gauge one doesn't give you the choice really. And don't just check the water level, check the water in the tender too. Also I have found that on some engines the water pump can kick out if an air bubble gets in the water line (after emptying the tender for instance), so if you empty your tender give a few pumps with the hand pump to charge up the water line and excentric pump.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris Scott said:


> Art, Ryan;
> Opportunity knocks. Make some improvements to the water level reading while you're rebuilding;
> 
> Add a larger diameter water gauge glass, i.e., 6mm dia.
> ...


The gauge glass accuracy becomes nullified if there is no water in the boiler. 

Seeing as how the most cursory of looks at photos of the FEF, or at the least, the specification sheets would point out that it covers 3/4 of these "improvements" as standard, this post is on a hiding to nothing. 

The size of the gauge glass matters less than the passages leading up to it. You can have a 4 or 5 mm glass that is just as accurate as say a 10mm one, provided the passages are larger than the ID of the glass, AND perhaps most importantly, the takeoff points are outside the turbulent areas of the water circulation. This means far removed from the major heat source. 

The FEF has 5/32" ID tubing leading up to the sight glass, no restriction and the glass reads very accurately, but again, only when there is water in it to read. There are two blowdown valves on the lower gauge glass fitting; one large bore used for blowing down the boiler and one small needle valve used for a quick glass cleanout should a bubble get trapped in the glass. Both are readily accessible from under the Fireman's side of the cab. 

Given the darkness of the cab, a diagonal stripe array is affixed to the sight glass on the FEF. The idea for this particular application came from Harlan Chinn. 

FEF refracting stripes

No fowl timer in the world will substitute adequately for the basic rule of paying attention to the task at hand, knowing the locomotive and understanding what it is doing at all times. Not just by sight, but also by sound, smell and general common sense. 

On boilers of less forgiving metallurgy, you will only make the mistake of running low (or out) of water once. 

Treat these boilers the same way as you would a full size one; not only to reduce fiduciary pains of having to do an expensive replacement in the worst case, but also for the sake of the boiler's longevity.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Ryan is right on that I remember the early Asters with the smithies boilers (PLM pacific and T16 for instance) they had the connection of the water gauge directly to the boiler and a larger glass too and they were very accurate, I think the problem stems from taking the level from the side of the boiler *and through banjo joints*. This has rendered Aster water levels most unreliable. Providing a blow down is an excellent response to this problem. But what about those locos that don't have one... I want to retrofit all those water levels with a blow down.


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

Adding to du-bousquetaire's advice to pump the system clear of air-bubbles, opening the return valve completely, and checking that water actually is returned to the tender.

As for misstakes, I've probably done them all. Torching a complete track with burning alcohol, having engines plunge down from the track - and as for running low on water, I'm ashamed to admit it has happened several times. When I started out in livesteam, I thought "what a stupid mistake to do, I'll never do that!"

My standard measure to get a more reliable sight-glass reading, is to "rock" the engine back and forth on the track.

To the amusement of visitors from the general public, I frequently cause bursts of burning gasflames through the smokebox door. And I seem to be the only member of Stockholm Livesteamers who regurarly burn my fingers on hot locomotives ;-D

(Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I'm actually one of those who get people's engines to run.)


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## boilingwater (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Richard,
I misspoke on the safety..it was the goodall valve that shot well into the sky....the milwaukee domes are an impressive place to run our engines but the large public attendance sometimes gets a bit distracting....I learned my lession on that..It was pretty impressive to see the rocket launch however.......or so I was told...

David-please stick around. Your knowledge of the hobby is great and I appreciate your views. I think everyone needs to keep in mind that it is always dangerous to try to infer what someone is trying to say or understand feeling from the sometimes inpersonal written word.

Hopefully, we can all focus on that this forum was set up to assist our fellow hobbyists and keep it there.

Thank you Art for the reminder and I'm sure Ryan will have you up and running again relatively soon.

Sam


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## Pauli (Jan 3, 2008)

I second the call for David to stick around! 

I can't guarantee I will always agree with, or like everything you may write. But your sharing of experience and views are definately important contributions!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I third call on David sticking around.
Best 
Simon


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I wouldn't feel bad about making this mistake Art, as many a full size locomotive has been destroyed when transitioning up/down steep grades in the mountains and having the crown sheet exposed etc. because of low water levels. If you're not making mistakes, then maybe you're not moving?


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

We shall call Art's FEF the Phoenix, as it will once again rise from the ashes! Graduated from Roundhouse gas burners where the gas is gone before the boiler is empty(if filled correctly) to a alcohol fired Aster is a big learning curve! I ran mine under steam on blocks for a short duration today At some time in its like the gauge glass was broken and she has a piece of metal rod where the glass should be. I am hoping Ryan sees this as I bet he has Aster sight gauge glass in stock. I could use a couple so I can see how much water my SBB Eb 3/5 has in it. Looking forward to Art's FEF running at zube park videos in the near future. Mike


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Gentlemen;

I would like for David Leech to stick around as well, but he has to be reading things on this forum to know our wishes. If he has left this forum, as he wrote, we may need to PM him to express our concerns.

Happy steaming,
David Meashey

P. S. Art, as someone who ran a two foot gauge Crown Metal Products steamer that set nose downgrade at the station, I know the concerns about reading the sight glass. If the glass showed more than 3/4 inch of water in the station, there was a good chance of "pulling water" when coming back up the grade. I do hope your locomotive will be restored "better than new."


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## bille1906 (May 2, 2009)

I did PM him and hopefully he only left this thread and not MLS


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

This is the reason, back in the heydays of steam, locomotives were "assigned" to a crew. As no two are alike, even among the same class of locomotive. This way the crew manning that engine, "knew" its good and bad habits and could "manage" the engine properly. One good reason to run on a rolling road or on blocks till one one learns thier locomotive and some of its behaviors, atleast as a light engine at first. Then the learning curve wont be as steep with a load on the drawbar. Unlike a full size engine, we cannot "bank" the fire when the engine is sitting idle and we want it to stay fairly "hot" so we can run again soon. of coarse we also do not have someone that goes around and checks the engines every so often while they "stew" in the ready tracks. We are sole person in change of the beast. One of the challenges and part of the fun!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave
" I do hope your locomotive will be restored "better than new."
I have no idea what "better than new" means but TRS will ensure that the FEF has a new boiler and that it passes all testing (under actual operational trials) prior to Art getting it back. We also thoroughly check all aspects of the locomotive as to structure and function prior to release. Finally, at this point in time one cannot tell it had once been denoted as a "flying Aster!"
Therefore, we do not "hope" it meets Art's expectations...it will do so, guaranteed!


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

boilingwater said:


> David-please stick around. Your knowledge of the hobby is great and I appreciate your views. I think everyone needs to keep in mind that it is always dangerous to try to infer what someone is trying to say or understand feeling from the sometimes inpersonal written word.
> 
> Hopefully, we can all focus on that this forum was set up to assist our fellow hobbyists and keep it there.


Well said, Sam. 

This forum would be a poorer place without experienced members like David sharing their wealth of knowledge and insight. I would also say that the forum (and the hobby in general) needs to have enthusiastic young members like Nate around to soak up that knowledge so they can pass it along to yet another generation in the future, and members like Art who nurture that interest in our youngsters. To those of us who have been around this forum for a while, it doesn't seem so long ago that Ryan was the wide-eyed kid getting his start in the hobby under his dad's wing, and now he is one of the go-to guys we all turn to when we need expert help with our engines. We all started somewhere.

Anyway, although we haven't all cooked a boiler, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all of us have made a mistake of some kind with our engines at some point in time. Some mistakes are just more expensive than others. In my 13 years in the hobby, I have certainly either witnessed or heard stories about my share of them, with results ranging from a couple of melted ties to an airborne Allegheny. And yes, I have been known to make a few of my own, including a fairly spectacular but mostly harmless butane fireball when I let a passing train get too close while I was fueling my old C-16 at a public show many years ago. I have also had a couple of momentary low-water situations over the years (fortunately with no harm done), and I once had a sight glass blow out when I tried to tighten the fitting while the boiler was under pressure. Fortunately, our little lokies are a lot more forgiving than their full-size counterparts, but they still demand our attention and our respect.


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles said:


> Dave
> " I do hope your locomotive will be restored "better than new."
> I have no idea what "better than new" means but TRS will ensure that the FEF has a new boiler and that it passes all testing (under actual operational trials) prior to Art getting it back. We also thoroughly check all aspects of the locomotive as to structure and function prior to release. Finally, at this point in time one cannot tell it had once been denoted as a "flying Aster!"
> Therefore, we do not "hope" it meets Art's expectations...it will do so, guaranteed!


That is nothing more than I expect from Charles and Ryan. I know from which I speak. They have treated me well. And my engines.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, apparently my age is showing again. I certainly meant no offense by using the expression "better than new." I had heard that expression a lot as a child (growing up in the Hershey area), and I had supposed that it meant that the fixed item performed better than it did when it was new. I meant to give good wishes, not cause confusion. I suppose the expression has fallen out of use.

Hope that explains what I meant to say,
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, the tuning they give locomotives and the improvements would classify as better than new/stock to me.

I've read many a post were timing, sealing, and other things a brand new loco needed to run better were performed.

Greg


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> The gauge glass accuracy becomes nullified if there is no water in the boiler.
> 
> Seeing as how the most cursory of looks at photos of the FEF, or at the least, the specification sheets would point out that it covers 3/4 of these "improvements" as standard, this post is on a hiding to nothing.
> 
> ...



Seeing someone targeted or being the target of something like this (a snark) makes it easy to understand sentiments like David's and getting fed up. I tend to see the lighter side since these are usually chock full entertaining moments. Someone gets this carried away they make subtle mistakes in their writing which are very revealing. 

About a timer;
A timer is more than a common reminder tool no one would ever think of it as a substitute. Just like in cooking where a timer is a mandatory tool given the often and many distractions. A timer isn't a substitute but a tool for attention to something. A timer is an ideal means for Art to remain attentive to his locomotive. 

The boiler post mortem is academic to helping Art be successful steaming and video taping his train runs at the same time. A timer is a practical and proactive means for Art's success doing both at the same time. And what are friends for but to help each other be successful and enjoy their running trains. Art's experience is a reminder we keep an eye out for anyone caught up with their camera and keep an eye out for them and their train. It takes very little effort and has it's own rewards.

Just a side note there is no null case to a water gauge. No water in the gauge no water in the boiler - that's not nothing and should set off alarms.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

My mind is anaspeptic, phrasmotic, even compunctious to have caused such pericombobulaton with the previous writings. No effort was put into being impertinent, if any was, surely success would have been realized. 

Theoretically the glass itself has no null case. However the accuracy of said gauge does if the sole purpose is reading accurate water levels used to create steam. One accounts for the fact that a boiler needs water in it to function; without it the boiler and sight glass fail to do their functions properly. It cannot read water if there is none to read and as a result, no steam can be created. Thereby it accurately reads what isn't there. As what isn't there nullifies the basic construct for said boiler to turn into a energy generation pressure vessel, the reading of no water nullifies the gauge glass accuracy in that without water in the glass, steam will not be generated upon applying a heating source. I believe Abbott and Costello had similar thoughts. Accurate only if there is water but still accurate if there isn't any. I don't know is on third.

Need we continue this farcical charade?

Instead of a timer, perhaps one of the more fashionable forms of time measuring devices are better suited. Cell phone, watch, sundial...

Then again, the above is obviously illogical and likely full of mistakes, most made with the sincerest of intentions.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

One thing that I have found useful at exhibitions (I say exhibitions because my pike only has an 8 meter section at table top height then it gets closer to 1 foot height) is one of these pocket led flashlights sold for key chains. As I get older I turn it on and can read my water glass really well at any time. This is useful because at exhibitions like Rail expo, the Musée Rambolitrain open house day, and Montelirail we can run our locos for up to two and a half hours at times, sometimes oiling up with steam oil at some point. it fits in your pocket along with the pump handle very convenient for us ageing live steamers


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> My mind is anaspeptic, phrasmotic, even compunctious to have caused such peridiscombobulaton with the previous writings. No effort was put into being impertinent, if any was, surely success would have been realized.


Well said, I think. Although, in general, one finds it advantageous to eschew obfuscation.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Ain't Theasaurussussussuss wunnerful thingys?


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

David Leech said:


> Greg,
> Then I happily leave this MLS forum.
> Goodbye,
> David


buh buh buh bye.


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## John 842 (Oct 1, 2015)

Chris Scott said:


> Art, Ryan;
> Opportunity knocks. Make some improvements to the water level reading while you're rebuilding;
> 
> Add a larger diameter water gauge glass, i.e., 6mm dia.
> ...


Well not quite - I think you may overlooking the following suggestions made by myself ....



John 842 said:


> The biggest improvement to the running my Accucraft NA has resulted from mods I've made to the water level gauge.
> 
> Ideally, for the best gauge performance, the top and bottom connections should tap directly into the back head and the fittings need to have a larger bore that the gauge glass itself.
> 
> ...


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