# DCC decisions...



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

I’ve been planning on evaluating DCC after counting the costs for conventional/outdoor control consoles with bock control; now that the latter is done, I’ve been looking into the DCC alternative. Recently, my wife and I visited the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum near Pittsburgh where they have an amazing, computer-controlled DCC-based system, and she loved it that so many things could be happening at once, and how smart the system was. So per her (sometimes, um, unpredictable) enthusiasm for my hobby if it goes in that direction, I now have new impetus for said evaluation.



So. The threads here have been great; and I’ve read several articles they point to. But here are a few pointed questions. 



1. Basic System: I’m leaning toward Digitrax, though Greg E. and others here appear to favor ProCab. Given the state of the art right now, Greg/others, would you still pay the extra $$ for NCE, and why? 
2. Switch Machines: I like how the Proline DC/DCC units don’t need an extra board. Anyone used them? With either of the systems just mentioned?
3. What’s the story about MRC Prodigy? Haven’t discovered many fans here of that system.
4. Reverse Loops (part A): My layout will be, God willing, a “Y” with a reverse loop at the end of each leg. Do units such as those offered by Digitrax or DCC Specialties really do the trick? Or do you really have to get additional boosters for each loop, to make things reliable? Or…?
5. Reverse Loops (part B): I’ve put in a LOT of work, with Todd A., figuring out a relay-based automated system; to do it all for a $30 DCC reversing unit seems, well, too good to be true. What are the hidden gotchas here?
6. Amps: I’m planning on running 2-3 loco’s independently, at the most; the rest will be parked on sidings. Roster is mainly LGB, some Bachmann, and a 2-motor “Big John” from HLW. Total track length is about 240 ft. I’m thinking 8 amps; comments?
7. Radio Range: My layout area is about 120’ x 50’. Can I plan on only one receiver in the middle? Or do I need 2, spread apart?
8. Radio penetration: will the Digitrax or ProCab handhelds penetrate thin-wall concrete mountains? (a later concern, but I’m on a roll)
9. Duplex: when Digitrax talks “duplex,” does that mean confirmation that the command has been sent/received? Or something else? Couldn’t find the answer easily on their site.
10. Wire Gauge: What AWG bus wire should I use, given that the height of my “Y” is about 120’? Is #10 solid overkill, or not enough?


Thanks for any input, you’ve all been so helpful on my other many issues.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. Digitrax is fine, especially now that they have the 2 way wireless cabs. I still greatly prefer the throttles on the NCE. Digitrax does have a unique feature, transponding. Consider if you want this feature, although the upcoming new standards will probably be differrent. Read my site again about making decisions between systems, and by all means, get your hands on each throttle type to see what you like. 

2. My buddy RJ uses the Proline DCC units, very simple to use, run from track power, and now with improved reliability and waterproofing, hard to beat. Don't worry about use with what system, all DCC systems except cheesy "starter types" will control ALL types of decoders... switch machine decoders are called "stationary" decoders. 

3. Junk... sorry, entry level system with limitations and quirks... buy a quality system, it will last you your life. 

4. Yes they work fine, and are so simple to install and use that you have expended more energy typing and worrying than it takes to use them. You asked about additional boosters, never needed just for a reversing loop, you use additional boosters when you need more current. 

5. No hidden gotchas, it's that easy, but I like the customizable one from DCC specialties, I think it's $45 and handles up to 17 amps, the best in my opinion. 

6. 8 amps will be fine UNLESS you run a bunch of stock lighted passenger cars, which can draw an amp each. Consider changing to LEDs on them. 

7. Probably, but I would probably use 2, the NCE repeaters are inexpensive. You could start with one and see how your coverage is... 

8. You have a fundamental misunderstanding here.... "normal" DCC is track powered and the power AND the signal come from the rails... you could make your tunnels out of solid steel. The wireless part is between your throttle and a "base station", the base station connects to a box that puts the signal on the rails. You do NOT connect directly to the loco, so you can be ANYWHERE, and signals will get to your loco. 

9. Yes, and NCE does the same. NCE was first, long before. 

10. 10 gauge might be a tiny bit of overkill, but that is what I use, and I run some trains right up to 10 amps. Why scrimp on a one-time investment? It's the same as worrying about $100 difference in DCC system cost, that's NOT where you are spending the majority of your money. 

Regards, Greg


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Cliffy,

I have to tell you, I just received my NCE system last week and i'm enjoying it greatly.

I put off buying DCC or other systems because i was always lead to beleive they were difficult to operate and program.

This is very untrue, i was up and running in 5 minutes and having fun playing with some of the features of DCC.

If i can do it anyone can........









I still have lots to discover but the basics are up and running and its a cool operating system.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Cliffy

+3 NCE DCC system. I am very pleased with the 10amp radio set. 



The Cab controller is superior to Digitrax in my opinion. Well worth the extra cost.


Make sure you upgrade NCE unit to 22-24V on the track. This will allow proper speed control with multiple units and lighted cars.


Good Luck in your decision and Merry Christmas.


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## Bob in Kalamazoo (Apr 2, 2009)

You've gotten a lot of good answers to your questions, particularly Greg's detailed answers. I use Digitrax and have been very happy with it. I've never had my hands on an NCE system. The club I belong to and everyone in it that has DCC has Digitrax, so that's why I chose it. I've heard lots of good things about NCE and I'm sure it's a good system. Take Greg's advice and try and get your hands on both before you decide. 
Bob


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Both NCE and Digitrax make good systems, each has some 'feature" or other that the other doesn't have. Look to others in you immediate area to see what they use and use that. These folks are your tech support. 

One radio base station in the middle of where the operators are will do it. The radio link is from your throttle to the base station. If you need to walk around a house with stucco walls, you'll need one on both sides with line of sight to where ever the operators are. 

8 amps for the whole layout is kind of marginal but safer than one big booster. If you need more current, divide the layout into power districts and power each district from it's own booster. This spreads the load out. 

There are folks here that use the MRC Prodigy system and like it but most of these folks are into smaller scales indoors. The command station is ok, but it is universally accepted that MRC decoders are junk.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Watch out for the voltage specs on all decoders. 

Just because they are G scale compatible does not mean they are guaranteed to work. 

Case in point is I have a Zimo system that outputs 24 volts, and MRC decoders are rated for 21 volts max. They may work (they do for me, only lost one), but one could fry from over voltage. 

Good news is that I can lower the Zimo output to 21 volts as these have a voltage adjustment on the base station which can be read form the hand held unit 
Current draw can also be measured and seen on the Zimo hand held.


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

1. System: Digitrax is fine for a system but their power stations are a tad light in amperage. Select the system on which handheld you are most comfortable with. Other popular fine large scale systems to consider that you have not mentioned are Lenz, Zimo, CVP, and Massoth. 
2. Trunout machines: No experience with these but they sound interesting. If left outside how weather proof they are is the main issue.

3. MRC: Again select the system on what you like in your hand, select the power stations (boosters) for power and voltage.

4. Reverse loop controllers A: I have used a lot of different types. I have several of Tonys but have recently switched over to the Lenz LK200s because they work better with some stock locomotives.

5. Reverse loop controllers B: If the loop or Y is simple then use a relay controlled by the turnout position (I have several of these). If the loop is more complicated (ie more then one entry) then use a reverce loop controller. Much simpler and worth it.

6. Amps: Alas different manufacturers rate there amps differently. For example at 18 volts DCC, the Bachmann 5 amp power station provides much more power to the rails then the 8 amp digitrax power station. ( I currently use six 10 amp units) The other thing to consider is voltage. Many locomotives really need at least 21 volts DCC. (I use 21.5-22 volts DCC)

7. Radio Range: Likely a central location will be fine, depends on the hills.

8. Radio penetration: As others have pointed out with track powered DCC radio reception is between the handheld and the system.l Its just the opposite from RC in the loco. With RC in the loco the reception is best when the transmitter is next to the locomotive on the ground and decreases as the distance from the locomotive increases. With RC in the system the reception is best when the handheld is next to the receiver (often far from the locomotive) and decreases from this point. I mention this because if you grow into a larger layout with hills if you place the handheld on the ground next to the locomotive you can loose reception. Our layout is to large for most of the DCC radios on the market.

9. Duplex: Yes it also means you can select the locomotive without plugging in. Many others do not stress this because they have been duplex from the start.
10. Wire Gauge: I tend to over kill and have a very large layout (it will approach 4000ft when complete) I use 8 AWG from the power stations to the junction boxes out on the layout, 10 AWG bus under the track sections and 12 AWG feeders to the track. 


Something you did not mention are decoders. If performance is desired the best rated ones are Zimo and Lenz. I have switched over to Lenz because of their ability to work flawlessly with no need to clean the track or locomotive wheels. They can do this if you install a aux power source in the locomotive. (and do not even consider a decoder not rated for at least 27 volts)


Hope that helps


Stan Ames
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks everybody, that's all hugely helpful! 

Compared to the Digitrax 8 amp system (cheapest retail price I saw: $550), I see that NCE has the 10 amp Ph-10R (crpis: $670). 

So you're right Greg, in the grand scheme of things, for such a big factor, this cost delta is in the noise... about 1 NiPl turnouts, or 1/2 truckload of gravel. (Off topic: it was those truckloads of gravel and dirt that soaked me this last season -- !!)

Re. the radio signal penetration, I didn't spell it out too well: I'm planning on a concrete mountain which may get in between throttle and receiver; George confirms what I was thinking, that line of sight between those is important. I'd expect radio transmission to be more forgiving in that regard vs. IR, correct? Regardless, it sounds like I should plan on one receiver in the middle, then add 2 others if needed one near each end (I won't be making those mountains soon). I'm assuming the NCE system is as easy to add receivers as Digitrax; I'll be looking into that next. 

Again, thanks very much for everyone's rapid responses and great insights. 

===Cliff


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the additional points, Stanley, especially the eloboration on radio transmission and AWG. 
6 10 amp units, wow!

I just got an email back from Axel at Train Li regardging how "waterproof" the Proline machines are, and here is what he says: 

All components in the Proline have been soaked in a special water tight sealer and we have learned that is necessary to provide outlets for water, rather than to attempt the impossible and keeping all water out. The WA1 needs maintenance too over time but cannot easily be opened. I was 2 years ago attempting to buy the molds and change the design, but decided to improve the Proline's product. I feel that Proline in terms of water has now the adavantage. It cost us about 20 drives in the learning process, but now the best test customer for that we had has had no problems with all the converted ones which reflect the current manufacturing process.
Axel also confirms that these machines have the DCC decoder built in; so at only $45 each, this to me is a no-brainer for my less accessible turnouts. 

===Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The NCE puts out an honest 10 amps all day, I know by experience. The Digitrax, as mentioned, will not put out it's rated capacity. If you are getting over 5 amps, I would not consider the Digitrax. 

It's so easy to draw a lot of current with doubleheading / mu operation, and as mentioned before lighted passenger cars. Remember your lighted caboose can also draw an amp as delivered. 

My friend RJ did a lot of the early testing of the Train-Li drives and was the person who identified the need for the additional drain holes. I was also helping from afar, programming side. 

Regards, Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Greg! All makes great sense. Good for you and RJ, in helping with that product's evolution.

Since I’ve been perusing more articles and manuals, here’s a couple more questions.

1. I finally understand how the NCE base station (RB02) / repeater system works, but can’t find anything on typical range (of either). Digitrax says the range is about 300 ft dia / 150 ft radius for their UR92; is the RB02 something similar? I only need about 75 ft radius. 

2. Greg, I like how you utilizes drainage products to create weatherproof housings; very ingenious. I’m thinking though of using a drip-proof outdoor cabinet, like one of those outdoor “mini-sheds” that Rubbermaid makes, and leaving the whole business under an elevated deck (around which the layout is arranged). Thoughts? 
[Later edit: geez, those plastic "mini sheds" aren't cheap! I'm thinking T1-11 / treated cabinet now, with a fiberglass panel roof, for an elex "shed."]


3. There shouldn’t be any problems with the antenna (base station or repeater) being enclosed in a thin-wall plastic enclosure, right? Otherwise, how does one weather proof their antenna units? (I’d love to be able to just run an antenna wire the length of my deck, but I assume that’s just not going to work here).

4. I'm a little confused on voltage. One suggestion here has been to upgrade the NCE system to 22-24V; others have warned not to exceed certain thresholds, e.g., below 21V (or whatever). I'm totally braindead on this. Is there anything special I need to be concerned with, in specifiying / ordering the NCE 10A system? 
5. I was thinking about running a single, dedicated, 15A GFCI circuit out back for now, but maybe put in an outdoor subpanel later. Comments?


===Cliff


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The Digitrax booster is indeed weaker than the NCE. The early ones would trip at less than their rated current. The DCS200 will do exactly 8 amps without sagging much into a resistive load. However, it trips at JUST over 8 amps so in the real world were current is bouncing all around, it will seem to trip off too often when the average load is around 5 amps. 

The Digitrax philosophy is to divide a layout into small power districts, each driven from a smaller booster. This works great for HO layouts where a heavy train MIGHT draw a whole amp so that several heavy trains can run in one power district and many trains can run on the whole layout. The nearby HO club uses 13 boosters and it's all good. However, this doesn't work so well in large scale when ONE train can draw 5 amps. Two such trains entering a power district driven by an 8 amp booster will trip it. 

I use a very old NCE PB-110 booster on my old DCS100 command station. The command station drives an HO layout directly at about 14 volts. The NCE booster drives the large scale layout at about 22 volts. The PB-110 supplies 10+ amps clean, but it won't trip until just under 20 amps. This could result in problems when a "smart short" that can draw a steady 18 amps will cook hardware without tripping the booster. I do not know what the newer PB-110a does. I added a Digital Specialties PSX electronic circuit breaker on the output of the PB-110. It is now set at just below 10 amps and it does trip once in awhile under heavy loads. As soon as I find some thermal tape to attach some small heatsinks to the switches on the PSX, I'll reprogram it to something around 13 amps and then it should behave just a little better.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Can you recommend a specific Meanwell power supply? Maybe one with some extra outputs & amps for effects / accessories?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I found thermal tape at a good price at sidewinder computers *http://www.sidewindercom...trong>**

They used to carry the Chromerics stuff separately, looks like they carry other brands now.

Used it on my PSX-AR autoreverser heat sinks.

Greg 

*


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Greg,

Saw your Meanwell p/n ref, all is cool now, so ignore my prior. I'll try to pre-read better next time!

But thanks again for all your help.

===Cliff

PS, after re-reading my initial post, I'm horrified to see how I kinda threw my wife under the bus... If anyone was likewise appalled, I meant to put a big wink-wink happy face thingy there, but forgot...! She was the one who suggested first that I get into this amazing hobby, so I love her about 2.34X more.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

NCE radio system available for $650 - $660 w/o power supply... add meanwell for $75, still way below $1,000... you are under 3/4 of that number. 

On voltage, only some decoders cannot handle the 24 volts, MRC (like Stan mentioned, although I have 6 working at this voltage) and the Soundtraxx Tsunami. Both are lower quality or performance for G scale so don't worry. 

Buss or Bus is fine, both are correct. 

Regards, Greg


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