# Increased drag during long runs?



## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I think the hobo's are getting fat while riding my trains









I was running two long trains today and after about 2 hours I started getting random decouplings of both the freight and coal trains.
At first I thought there was debris on the track but I didnt find anything out of the norm. When I went to recouple the cars I found that they felt like they weighed a ton. 
When I put the trains together they rolled much much freer than they did now, it felt like someone had applied the brakes to all the cars. The drag was so high that it was actually pulling the couplers apart.

I'm using Aristo rolling stock with Aristo metal wheels and stock Aristo knuckle couplers.

Has anyone else had this happen?

How can I stop/avoid this from happening?

Thanks, Ron
(it was in the 90's today just fyi)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Check your lubrication on your axles. I prefer graphite in plastic journals, but people have success with oil. 

Also get rid of your Aristo couplers and get Kadees... Aristos pull apart after a while. (they make a lot of money selling couplers) 

Greg


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron,

That's why I changed all my couplers to K/D's I had the same problem with Aristo's on 25 car trains.
That was 20 years ago you think they would have improved them by now.

Don


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

But defintely lube your axles too....Back when I worked at a train store we had to lube the trains on the display layouts once a month most of the year, and from Thanksgiving to Christmas about once a week. The LGB set was only three cars too....It was, of course, the easiest to maintain. 

I could never convince the local grocery store chain to lube the axles so they rarely ran the train and eventually burned up the power pack. It sat idle for a few years then they took it down. 

Chas


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

What diameter curves are you running? (I just realized who you were and that your railroad is dead flat and has pretty wide curves.) 

You didn't say how long your trains were in your initial post. We've been able to run trains as long as 38 cars (a mixture of LGB and Aristo knuckles, but mostly aristo) on fairly wide radius curves. What vintage is your rolling stock? Aristo couplers have changed designs over the years. I still haven't figured out what's going on with my new aristo 2 bay hopper couplers. They don't seem to want to let go. I did have couplers on an early aristo heavyweight coach I bought in April have couplers that would open at will. They were removed, marked, and replaced with newer ones.

I had a failure the other day following a dropped piece of rolling stock. A 2 bay hopper had a wheel fall out when it was dropped, but we didn't notice. About 20 minutes after we started running, we had a derailment. Did you check that all your rolling stock was rolling smoothly? I would recommend giving the axles a shot of lube, too, just to be safe! 

Greg, you are right, Kadee does sell a lot of couplers! One of these days, I might break down and buy a pair to see how I like them.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

If you chose to oil your journals be sure the oil is plastic compatible. Some oil can eat your trucks! 
I prefere graphite. Without sealed bearings the lube disapates. 

John


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I know it costs $$$ but if at all possible, go with ball-bearing wheelsets! It took me a few years of adding a set here and there but I now have them all converted and the difference is definitely worth it! It is especially noticeable when you get to consists larger than eight cars. The other nice thing about them is that the longer you run them the easier they roll!


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 31 Aug 2010 10:40 AM 
What diameter curves are you running? (I just realized who you were and that your railroad is dead flat and has pretty wide curves.) 

You didn't say how long your trains were in your initial post. We've been able to run trains as long as 38 cars (a mixture of LGB and Aristo knuckles, but mostly aristo) on fairly wide radius curves. What vintage is your rolling stock? Aristo couplers have changed designs over the years. I still haven't figured out what's going on with my new aristo 2 bay hopper couplers. They don't seem to want to let go. I did have couplers on an early aristo heavyweight coach I bought in April have couplers that would open at will. They were removed, marked, and replaced with newer ones.

I had a failure the other day following a dropped piece of rolling stock. A 2 bay hopper had a wheel fall out when it was dropped, but we didn't notice. About 20 minutes after we started running, we had a derailment. Did you check that all your rolling stock was rolling smoothly? I would recommend giving the axles a shot of lube, too, just to be safe! 

Greg, you are right, Kadee does sell a lot of couplers! One of these days, I might break down and buy a pair to see how I like them. 



The smallest Dia curves are a little greater than 11.5 foot, they are the ones around the boulder and have a 45" straight section between them. 
The boxcar train had 13 cars plus a caboose, all aristo mostly black and yellow box stuff, the coal train is 18 cars long with 12 new 2 bays, 3 aristo 3 bay, and 3 usa 3 bays (aristo 3 bay at lead then 12 2 bay, with 3 usa 3 bay trailing) All have the aristo metal wheels 29111b's. Coal train, and boxcar train video

I did lube them with a few drops of oil on all the axels and that helped lengthen the run time before the drag got so high it pulled the cuplers apart. 

I guess that stronger couplers like Kadee 831's or the new 900 series would also make a big differance as well, may have to go that way if I want to run those long trains.

Ron


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## jmill24 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ron, I hope you did not put 29111B metal wheels on the aristo 3 bay cars. I believe they will be tight and there is another wheel design for the modern trucks, 29111D. I pull 30 plus cars up 1.8% grade "S" curve with no problems with the AC couplers. Is it always the same coupler and/or at the same location on your track?...........Jim


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron, 

I would second Steve's suggestion for ball-bearing wheelsets. They will cost some $$$, but what a delight to run trains without the bother of lubing all the time. I pull ten narrow gauge cars which are large and heavy. Pulled two AMS J&S coaches at Fairplex, with ball-bearing wheel-sets and we ran great. 1000 ft. mainlines. These cars weight in at about 7 1/2 lbs. ea. pulled by a 22 lb. Accucraft loco. All metal construction. All of my narrow gauge freight have been converted to ball-bearing. When you say you have metal wheels on your rolling stock, does it mean they are BB or just metal wheels as opposed to plastic wheels? That many cars can be very heavy and I'm sure the drag must be tremendous. Try a set of BB and roll it in comparison with the non-BB cars. I think you will definitely notice a big difference. I'm now a believer in ball-bearing wheelsets.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By jmill24 on 31 Aug 2010 02:32 PM 
Ron, I hope you did not put 29111B metal wheels on the aristo 3 bay cars. I believe they will be tight and there is another wheel design for the modern trucks, 29111D. I pull 30 plus cars up 1.8% grade "S" curve with no problems with the AC couplers. Is it always the same coupler and/or at the same location on your track?...........Jim


Yes they are 29111b's but I did follow a mod that flips the bushings so the flat lip is on the outside there is plenty of side to side clearance. I did notice that the there was some rub marks on the bottom of the 3 bay coal cars behind the right inner wheel so that cant be good guess I'll throw some D's on those 3 cars  . I don't have any other ones with those caps so I guess I'm ok with the rest. The box cars dont have any of the modern trucks and I dont see any rubbing.

As far as the derailing it is usually the car directly behind the engine, it happens in different places but not right away it only happens after they have been running for an hour or 2.

Ron


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 31 Aug 2010 02:45 PM 
Ron, 

I would second Steve's suggestion for ball-bearing wheelsets. They will cost some $$$, but what a delight to run trains without the bother of lubing all the time. I pull ten narrow gauge cars which are large and heavy. Pulled two AMS J&S coaches at Fairplex, with ball-bearing wheel-sets and we ran great. 1000 ft. mainlines. These cars weight in at about 7 1/2 lbs. ea. pulled by a 22 lb. Accucraft loco. All metal construction. All of my narrow gauge freight have been converted to ball-bearing. When you say you have metal wheels on your rolling stock, does it mean they are BB or just metal wheels as opposed to plastic wheels? That many cars can be very heavy and I'm sure the drag must be tremendous. Try a set of BB and roll it in comparison with the non-BB cars. I think you will definitely notice a big difference. I'm now a believer in ball-bearing wheelsets. 

I really like the idea of ball bearing trucks but the cost of redoing 50 cars is a bit steep, I think I'll try the Kadee's at $6 per car first and hope they do the job. 

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think Mark got my comment wrong... Aristo makes a lot of money, selling replacement couplers. The Aristo's just get weak after a while and pull apart on long trains. 

There are always replacement couplers to be had... Metal wheels and couplers are virtually the only parts always in stock at Aristo. 

I have a friend who was just fine with the Aristo's, but got tired of periodic replacement and went to Kadees, just based on "cost of ownership"... The Kadees look better, are stronger, don't have a mechanism that pulls apart and will uncouple with a magnet. 

On your friction, I think all you need is lubrication... no need to go ball bearings... longer train, use more locos! 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

What's the best type of lube to use do you have a brand name?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I prefer graphite on plastic journals, oil on metal journals.

I like the hob-e-lube stuff, their powdered graphite is very good. For metal sideframes, then I use their "heavy gear oil", this may seem counter-intuitive, but the fit of the axles in journals is so sloppy, a light oil kind of just does not hang in there. I don't like grease, because it tends to move away from where I want it. The heavy oil is "sticky" but still flows.

In general, the dry lubes also attract less grit and do not tend to hold moisture. But, I find the graphite does not "work into" the surface of metal journals, like it does in plastic.


As you might have guessed, I have a page on lubrication on my web site: *http://www.elmassian.com...trong>**

Regards, Greg*


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I visit your site a lot, the info is very usefull and has helped me avoid many mistakes. I have basically duplicated your entire NCE power system and have had great results so far.

I was looking on the Kadee site and they reccomend the 831 for most all Aristo rolling stock and now they have the new E couplers they recomend 903 and 909 have you tried any of the new ones,( found out that 909 is 903 with gear box)

Thanks, Ron


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I am in the process of switching to Kadees on all my locos and rolling stock that includes mostly Aristo as I became very disappointed with Aristo's inconsistent coupler quality. 
So far I have completed about 100 cars with body mount Kadees, but still have many more to convert. 
In the process of doing the conversions, and when I got to doing the Aristo covered hoppers, I decided to lower them for more prototypical appearance as well as the need to do this for facilitating body mounting the Kadees. (I wrote about it.) 

As to the lube, unless you know the trucks are made of nylon, don't use Aristo's Electralube as it will attack plastic. (I wrote about this, too.) 
I have been using moly paste (sparingly) on the Aristo 3 bay 100 ton hopper car brass bushings. So far it has worked well. 

On the trucks having plastic bushings or journals, I use Teflon powder. 

As to my experience with ball bearings, I had retrofitted 38 Aristo reefer cars with them. (I also wrote about this.) Whilst they operate beautifully on straight track, there beneficial effect was swamped when operating on my mostly 10 foot diameter curves as the wheel flange angle of attack (skew) against the rail heads caused the predominant drag.

-Ted


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

If Ur serious about trains, U'll want to be switching to body mount couplers, and since couplers R a long-term relationship, 
U'll want one that will be there 5-10 years down the road when U need some more, and that means Kadee... I played 
aound with A-C couplers when I first got into LS 20 years ago, even body-mounted a few, but the couplers weren't 
reliable then, and haven't improved much since, besides their w-a-a-a-y too big... No problem, had been using Kadees 
on all the HO trains since the mid 50s, so we did the switch to body-mount Kadees on LS too with no regrets... I used to
be anti ball bearing around here too, it just wasn't cost effective, but now that ball bearings R available at very reasonable
prices its worthwhile to install them on Ur active rolling stock... I've done about 85 pieces in the last year or 2, got about 
100+ more to do, but I'll do those as needed, if ever... One caveat though, don't store BB equipped rolling stock outdoors, 
they can rust under certain conditions...
Paul R...


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, once again, I must be the most lucky person in the whole world. I've not replaced my 20+ year old aristo couplers because they wore out. And I beat the $hit out of them. Slamming in to them, crashing, you name it. Remember, I've been playing with g-scale (Seriosuly?) since I was 8. If it withstood the beatings I handed out as a kid, I think it can last in careful handling service. I have installed aristo couplers on my USA and Bachmann rolling stock. So, Greg, I guess the six or seven couplers I have bought from aristo keep them in the black? I don't think so. 


There is a bigger problem here than the couplers. I cannot believe a 12 car train comes uncoupled due to standard aristo couplers pulling apart. I know this because I regularly run trains of this length on a hilly, vertically kinked railroad. Sorry guys, that's not the issue. There is something else at work. 
I did notice that the there was some rub marks on the bottom of the 3 bay coal cars behind the right inner wheel so that cant be good guess I'll throw some D's on those 3 cars  

I think this is the problem. Take a look at the wheels when the car is sitting on the track. Perhaps the flanges are hitting the bottom of the car. Did you put anything in the car, like stone? I did that a few times and got marks on the bottoms of my cars, too. I also replaced the plastic wheels with metal ones in one 100-ton aristo hopper by turning the bushings around. My experience was that did not work very well. I lost the caps periodically, and even a bushing once. Did you check the bushings that they are still properly seated? I think it would be a good move to replace the metal wheels with the ones Jim recommended before spending $300 on couplers. You might also try putting a small washer between the truck and the bolster to gain a little clearance. I had to do this when I put the aristo freight truck under a bachmann 3 bay hopper car. In fact, I think I used a couple of washers. 

Next, the car that always derails is behind the locomotive. Did you measure the coupler height and see if there is a mismatch? Is it an aristo to aristo coupler? Or is it a USAT and Aristo coupler? The two brands don't match up too well. The way the aristo couplers work, there is a bit of a tang at the bottom, and if the engine is higher than the car, it will raise the wheels off the track a bit. Going to Kadee may solve the problem but you will still need to pay careful attention to the coupler height.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are running in a dirty environment, it is possible the wheels started to pick up a layer of crud ?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well Mark your not the only person that has good performance from the AC couplers. I been using them for over 10 years and have had good luck using them. I run 25 car trains and have no problems uncoupling unless a track issue pops up. I do not plan on running anything longer than 25 cars so I can not justify converting to kadees I can better use that money for other things such as DCC decoders and switch machines. Later RJD


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 01 Sep 2010 06:51 AM 
Well, once again, I must be the most lucky person in the whole world. I've not replaced my 20+ year old aristo couplers because they wore out. And I beat the $hit out of them. Slamming in to them, crashing, you name it. Remember, I've been playing with g-scale (Seriosuly?) since I was 8. If it withstood the beatings I handed out as a kid, I think it can last in careful handling service. I have installed aristo couplers on my USA and Bachmann rolling stock. So, Greg, I guess the six or seven couplers I have bought from aristo keep them in the black? I don't think so. 


There is a bigger problem here than the couplers. I cannot believe a 12 car train comes uncoupled due to standard aristo couplers pulling apart. I know this because I regularly run trains of this length on a hilly, vertically kinked railroad. Sorry guys, that's not the issue. There is something else at work. 
I did notice that the there was some rub marks on the bottom of the 3 bay coal cars behind the right inner wheel so that cant be good guess I'll throw some D's on those 3 cars  

I think this is the problem. Take a look at the wheels when the car is sitting on the track. Perhaps the flanges are hitting the bottom of the car. Did you put anything in the car, like stone? I did that a few times and got marks on the bottoms of my cars, too. I also replaced the plastic wheels with metal ones in one 100-ton aristo hopper by turning the bushings around. My experience was that did not work very well. I lost the caps periodically, and even a bushing once. Did you check the bushings that they are still properly seated? I think it would be a good move to replace the metal wheels with the ones Jim recommended before spending $300 on couplers. You might also try putting a small washer between the truck and the bolster to gain a little clearance. I had to do this when I put the aristo freight truck under a bachmann 3 bay hopper car. In fact, I think I used a couple of washers. 

Next, the car that always derails is behind the locomotive. Did you measure the coupler height and see if there is a mismatch? Is it an aristo to aristo coupler? Or is it a USAT and Aristo coupler? The two brands don't match up too well. The way the aristo couplers work, there is a bit of a tang at the bottom, and if the engine is higher than the car, it will raise the wheels off the track a bit. Going to Kadee may solve the problem but you will still need to pay careful attention to the coupler height. 


Hmm all good points Mark. There was nothing extra in the cars and they line up pretty well as they are all Aristo to Aristo couplers. I did also have the lead boxcar uncouple after a couple of hours runtime, and none of them have any rubbing issues. I think its a couple of things causing this to happen, the lube for sure, and also the coal cars wheel rubbing, and lastly some coupler issues.


I think what I will do is first is take out the Aristo 3 bays from the consist, until I get the D's for them, and use some graphite lube and see how it goes. 


Then the next step I'll get Kadee 909's for my engines and the front coupler of the lead car in the consists. I may do that anyway just for the extra strength, and being able to remotely disconnect from the trains sound cool. 
Doing it that way would make the cost negligible.


Lastly would be to go all Kadee, then would come the truck/body mount decision. I would like to stay truck mounted for ease of installation, and I don't plan on pushing my trains. Has anyone had success using truck mounted Kadee's or does body mount make that big a difference?


Thanks, Ron


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

My personal experience really goes along with Mark & RJ. I have not been running Aristo trains as long as Mark has, but in five years of running almost every day, I have had very few problems with the Aristo couplers. Maybe over the 5 years I have had 2 or 3 couplers at the most which are weak and open on me. Like them, I've converted all of my couplers to Aristo, on my Bachmann and USAT cars. In my case this has decision was based on economics since most of my cars were Aristo, it meant fewer changeouts.  Typically I run trains that are 10-2-18 cars long, although sometimes I pull as many as 25 cars.
 
I have had problems with some of my 100 ton hopper cars with the brake shoes dragging on the wheels. This really increases the drag on my trains. I have also found that lubrication helps a lot. I have generally used plastic compatible light oil, but from the experience of Greg and others, I think in the future I might try some graphite.
 
Ed


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 01 Sep 2010 01:15 AM

As to my experience with ball bearings, I had retrofitted 38 Aristo reefer cars with them. (I also wrote about this.) Whilst they operate beautifully on straight track, there beneficial effect was swamped when operating on my mostly 10 foot diameter curves as the wheel flange angle of attack (skew) against the rail heads caused the predominant drag.


-Ted 


Ted, 

This is an interesting observation and makes sense IMO... Do you believe the skew or scrubbing so to speak is greater with B.B.’s than with bushed floating axles? 
Do your axles float side to side or are they fixed or press fit onto the ball bearings? 

I have NO experience converting trucks currently with bearings/bushings or the like, I have metal wheels on all my stuff and thought someday I would go with ball bearings. 

Michael


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Just an off the wall question.

Could it be the result of heat expansion causing a bind in the axle / side frame journal interface. How hot was it when you were running and do you encounter the same problem when running in cooler temperatures?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Doubtful Steve... as I mentioned earlier, and you can verify for yourself, the "fit" between the axles and the journals in virtually EVERY manufacturer's cars is quite sloppy, never close enough to bind. 


That said, there's ALWAYS an exception: 










Ron, I was approached by Kadee to evaluate the new G couplers before they were released. They appear to be stronger and an even better design (hidden knuckle spring) besides looking better. Thumbs up to the new style, that's all I am buying from here out. 

On youtube, if you search "gregeusa" you will see a few of my videos. One is of a 50 car train going up a 3.5% grade and down a 5.5% grade... I torture tested these quite a bit. Very pleased. Please note my 3.5% grade probably stressed the couplers like a 150-200 car train on the flat. 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I am putting these on all my Aristo Trucks. I have converted 3 sets of USA 5 car articulated container cars to aristo turcks and added these bearings. 

http://www.avidrc.com/shop/index.ph...h]=3x6x2.5 

I have put the axel of the wheel set in a drill chuck and use a piece of everycloth to turnd down the axle just till the bearins slips on shaft with some resistance Then I remove the insiert in the truck frame which leaves a 6mm hole that the bearing fits in perfectily. 

Tests At Stan Cederleaf's showed my engine curent  draw went up about 1/4 or a little more when pulling 25 cars with these bearings. It reduces wear and tear on your engines gear box when pulling long trains.

JJ


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron,

Sounds like you have a good plan to address this problem. With the trains of the length you are running, the couplers you have shouldn't pull apart randomly. Good luck and keep us posted. 

Mark


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Doubtful Steve... as I mentioned earlier, and you can verify for yourself, the "fit" between the axles and the journals in virtually EVERY manufacturer's cars is quite sloppy, never close enough to bind

Greg, 
The aristo modern truck does need the longer axled "D" wheels. It is so the cap doesn't hit the brass journal and bind. Also, some manufacturers wheels do not fit in other manufacturers trucks. Example: the blackened USA metal wheels do not work well with the aristo 40' series freight truck. The wheels must be smaller in diameter than the aristo, and the brake shoes hit the rail head in some instances. Also, there is a hefty shoulder on the axle that can bind with these trucks. They do, however, work very well in LGB's old style arch bar truck and USAT's virtually identical arch bar truck. 

Are those axles from an early heavyweight car in a freight truck? They look like the ones I have in a very early heavyweight. Why would the metal have flaked off light that? I would expect the plastic to wear, not the metal! Or is that graphite all over?


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RE: Ted, 

This is an interesting observation and makes sense IMO... Do you believe the skew or scrubbing so to speak is greater with B.B.’s than with bushed floating axles? 
Do your axles float side to side or are they fixed or press fit onto the ball bearings? 

I have NO experience converting trucks currently with bearings/bushings or the like, I have metal wheels on all my stuff and thought someday I would go with ball bearings. 

Michael 

*** 


Michael,

When discussing Aristo's freight trucks, be sure not to confuse the Aristo Bettendorf friction bearing type trucks (having plastic bushing inserts) with Aristo's Barber roller bearing type trucks (having the brass bushing inserts). 

I am going to mostly discuss the Aristo Bettendorf trucks here.

The skew is actually slightly better with the ball bearing inserts because of the thickness of little flange taking up some of the axle's lateral slack. (It's like adding a couple of thin washers.)

Also, with Aristo changing from the older plastic material (that is subject to damage with their "Electralube" lubricant) to Nylon, there can sometimes be considerable variation for lateral axle movement. (Shrinkage of the truck parts coming out of the factory molds seems to vary.) 
So the need for spacer washers of different thickness (or stacking them) can vary, accordingly.

Aside from reducing the angle of attack (skew) for train operation on curves, another issue for increased drag is that the two wheels would want to turn a different amount, so the outboard wheel on a curve track should be allowed to rotate a greater distance than the inboard wheel. Since it can't with a rigid axle connecting the wheels together, the wheel/s will have to slip on the rails some to make up for this. (That's why automobiles have differentials to go around street corners.)

Anyway, the following vignettes I had written sometime ago may be of help If you have not already seen them:

Article, 
"Aristo-Craft Metal Wheel "train accessory" kits and wheel issues"
See the later part of the vignette for the section on
"Freight truck wheel / axle skew and drag issues"


Article, 
"Bettendorf Truck Ball Bearing Retrofit Vignette"



As to Aristo's Barber roller bearing type trucks:

One can use a counter sink in a drill to bevel off some of the brass bushing material to accommodate the installation of Aristo's ART-29111B wheels if your already have them rather than purchasing the ART-29111D wheels intended for these trucks. Though I have not tried it, myself, beveling inboard side of the bushing is a great idea that Ron Wenger thought of in order to accept the ART-29111B projecting axle hubs.


As to Aristo couplers, see the article described as follows: 

(Since I wrote the article I experienced poor performing Aristo couplers with them pulling apart with minimal load - maybe 12 cars or so - on all 9 of the GP40s I had purchased and many of the newer double door & plug door box cars. To my recollection, Aristo conceded this problem and took action to fix or replace worn molds.)

Article,
"Aristo-Craft knuckle coupler tests & a test train"


Since I typically run trains with about 50 cars on a very circuitous layout (mostly 10 foot diameter curves) - thus having much more drag than on a straight track layout - the Aristo knuckle couplers had tended to pull apart more and more often. I finally decided to replace them with body mount Kadees which, so far, have not suffered from this problem.

-Ted


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, I don't see where the original poster specified he was using Aristo modern roller bearing trucks. Maybe he is or is not. 

Yes, they are an EXCEPTION that I did not mention. So the rest of the trucks are as I described. 

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RE: Aristo's axle / wheel assemblies and different hup types

Shown below at the left is Aristo's Bettendorf truck type ART-29111B wheels with pointer at axle tip near its projecting hub, and shown on the right is Aristo's Barber roller bearing truck type ART-29111D wheels with minimal projecting hub. The projecting hub of the ART-29111B interferes with the brass bushings of an as received factory Barber tuck frame assembly.











The overall axle tip to tip meauremets on the samples I used were virtually the same as can be seen in the following two pictures:

As shown below, the ART-29111B overall axle tip to tip span measures 2.799 inches.











As shown below the ART-29111D overall axle tip to tip span measures 2.796 inches.









So if you modify the brass bushings in the Barber type truck by, for example, beveling the inboard side of the bushings, the ART-29111B assembly will fit and be able to have the plastic bearing caps affixed at the tips just like the ART-29111D assemblies.


-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You will find that if notusing the correct AC wheel sets the Roller bearing cap will not fit correctly. Also as mentioned using improper wheel sets in cars can also cause binding and drag on the cars. Make sure you check the install before placing in service. Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Using Aristo ART-29111 "B" version wheels in their Roller Bearing Truck


*Preface:*

Aristo's Barber trucks that emulate prototype roller bearing trucks do so with a small plastic cap pressed on the axle's projecting tip so it can rotate with the wheel.

Aristo equips most of their freight cars with plastic wheels as they come from the factory - though they do sell a whole truck assembly with metal wheels, such as the ART-29100.










If one is to upgrade a truck to metal wheels, Aristo sells the ART-29111D wheels (like used in the ART-29100) where the "D" suffix is significant in that these wheels are made with a minimal wheel hub projection being similar to the standard plastic wheels. 
(Note this hub projection is not to be confused with the distance of axle tip projection from a wheel's face, or the overall axle tip to tip distance.)

Aristo, also, sells the metal wheel, ART-29111B (suffix B version), that is typically used to replace their Bettendorf friction bearing type truck's plastic wheels. 

The B and D versions of wheels are the same except for the hub projection.
(They are made to the same wheel tread & flange diameter, the same axle diameter, the same axle tip diameter, and the same overall axle tip to tip span - as shown in a prior post.)

It is to be appreciated that the Aristo Bettendorf truck side frames (having plastic bushing inserts) are a bit farther apart than the Barber truck side frames having brass bushing inserts.
Thus, the "D" version metal wheels are made with nearly no hub projection in order that they freely rotate and not bind-up when installed in the Barber truck, whereas the "B" version would bind in this application.

Therefore, if you want to upgrade the Barber truck to metal wheels, it's intended that the ART-29111D version wheel be used. 


*Adapting the Barber Truck to Accept ART-29111B metal wheels:*

The Aristo Barber truck can be easily modified to accept the ART29111B version metal wheels so that they freely rotate, and their bearing caps securely fit as will be described and shown.

This may be desirable to do if you already have ART-29111B wheels, or you can't obtain the ART-29111D wheels for whatever reason.

*Method 1[/i]:*
One method is to remove the brass bushings and turn them around so the bushing's flange is faced outboard of the truck's side frame, thus, allowing more distance between the side frames (by two flange widths). This works well enough except that the bushings tend to be pushed away from the side frames during operation, consequently, the bushings are best glued in place. 

Additionally, the small emulated bearing caps have less space to be pushed onto the axle tips because the bushing flange is now located on the outboard of the side frame - so there is the risk for them to come loose and fall off. The caps can be glued in place, but they should not be push on right up against the surface of the side frame as the axle will drag due to the cap rubbing when turning. This condition is further exacerbated by any oozed glue!

*Method 2[/i]:*

There is a better method I became aware of sometime ago that, if I recall correctly, Aristo Forum member, Ron Wenger, suggested. That better method is to countersink (bevel) the flange side of the bushing. This provides extra distance to envelope just enough of the ART-29111B projecting wheel hub area.

The first thing to do is to pry off all the bearing caps, and remove one of the side frames; then take out the existing plastic wheels.

Shown below is the partial disassembly of the Barber truck. 
Note the ART-29111B wheel hub projection being pointed to by the Xacto knife.










I held the drill bit in my hand since it was big enough to just manually twist it clockwise to bevel the bushing. Using a drill motor at low speed should work OK, too.
You can countersink the bushing whilst still in the side frame until it starts to spin. 

To avoid having the bushing spin in the side frame, you really have to take it out and hold it steady with something.










I used a 3/8" diameter twist drill (its point being angled such and sufficiently large) with the bushing held in a Vise Grip clamped with minimal pressure.










After counter sinking the bushings (and cleaning any burrs with emery paper), I lubed the ART-29111B wheels right at the wheel hub area.










I used a small stick to sparingly apply Moly Paste lubricant whilst avoiding getting any on the outer area of the axle tip so that after installing the wheels the bearing caps would stay put. (Note: Before lubing, the wheels can be checked so that they rotate freely in an assembled truck. If not, the amount of material removed in the countersinking operation is likely insufficient.) 

Shown below is the Aristo Barber truck with counter sunk bushings and ART-29111B metal wheels installed. For comparison, the truck on the right is a Barber truck with factory installed ART-29111D version metal wheels.









In the above picture, note how the axle tips that project outward from the side frames are virtually the same distance. The one on the right shows factory knurling (or splines) on the very tip of the axle. The factory knurling was done to better secure the cap; however, the trade-off is to scratch the interior area of the bushing during RR of the axle! 

I found when pushing the caps on the ART-29111B axle tips that they where plenty tight without the need of knurling.

Once the bearing caps are pushed on, ensure a slight space is left so there won't be any binding. If the cap's end touches the side frame the axle won't rotate freely.










With the ART-29111B wheels installed in the fully assembled Barber truck having counter sunk bushings, it rolled all by itself on the slightly out of level table top!










The Truck also coasted well on an 8 foot diameter curve track since its wheel angle of attack (wheel skew) contributed to lateral axle displacement is minimal - just enough for the truck assembly to freely roll.










Shown below is the assembled truck that happens to be on a turnout.










Before I installed the wheels, I took the opportunity to properly gauge the back to back spacing and cleaned and painted the facing surfaces flat black. (Aristo's ART-29111B wheels tend to be factory spaced too narrow.) 










-Ted


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,
Is the nob-e-lube graphite their HL651? They also sell a white dry lube HL652. I see they also have a Graphite P358. It's about time I did some lubing on my rolling stock, so want to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hob-e-lube HL561 is the one. The reason I prefer it over the white lube is that graphite and molybdenum have the fairly unique properties of adhering and "working into" the surface of plastic. 

Teflon will just sit on top. 

Owing to the "sloppy fit" of all axles to journals (again, specifically metal axles in plastic sideframes, not the single exception above of brass bushings), liquids and even greases kind of "fall away" from the lubricating area, due to the sloppy fit. 

With the graphite/moly mix, you have it "adhered" to the surface of the plastic. So this is my reasoning, and also my experience with using this type of lube in this situation. 

Also, moly has some superior qualities to graphite so this is better, in my opinion, than a straight graphite only powdered lube. 

Regards, Greg


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

Greg,
I take it you meant to say HL651? I don't see any product HL561. 
Thanks,
Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, had not had enough coffee yet! 

Got the rest of the post right, just not the part number ha ha! 

Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Well I took off the 3 Aristo 3 bay coal cars from the train leaving me 15 cars (12 Aristo 2bays, 3 USA 3bays) oiled the axles using some LGB light oil and hooked it up to my Mallet. The train ran for 3 hours with no issues, of note though it was only 79 degree's vs the 95' the days I was having issues.

I ran a second train of 9 boxcars a long side it also zero issues.

This leads me to believe that it was a combination of things that caused my problems, 1) the wheel rubbing on the 3 Aristo 3 bays, 2) the high heat causing the oil to evaporate much more quickly than today, and lastly the sloppy locomotive couplers coming apart as the drag increased.

I think that i will go ahead with changing to Kadee 909's for all the engines and the lead car as well, then possibly going all Kadee over time, and get some of the lube that greg mentioned for the axles.

On a side note I think I will get some of the other freight trucks for the 3 bays I don't really like those spinning caps just something else to lose/worry about









Thanks for all your tips, Ron


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

BAH had derailing again today on the coal train the first car kept jumping the track it was a Aristo 2 bay, I switched the lead car to the USA 3 bay and the train ran without issue after that.

On the boxcar train I noticed that the lead car kept derailing after a curve, just the front wheel of the front truck behind the engine. It was 11 car long so I removed 4 and noticed it got better. Then After a bit it was happening again just the lead car front wheel after a curve. I watched the train going slowly through a curve and it seemed the the coupler didnt straighten out after the curve, so when it went straight it pushed the wheels off the rail.

I guess it's onto the kadee's?

Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ron, I re-read the whole thread.. you mention the mallet is one of the locos. What are the locos you are using? 

Often, when the first car after the loco derails, it's because the loco is very long with a body mount coupler, and it just swings so wide on a curve it pulls the car off the rails. 

This should not happen with a mallet tender, it's short. It also should not happen on your curves, they are plenty broad. I often see this, for example, on someone with 8 foot diameter curves and a Dash 9. 

Sometimes it's if a car is too light, but I can run 50 car trains very reliably with a much tougher layout, with 10 foot minimum diameter. 

I would double check the cross level of your track near the prime derailment areas, but from looking at your layout construction, it seems unlikely. It still seems to be a excessive drag issue, but the train is too short it seems. 

Keep us informed... check the coupler swing... something is wrong, you should not have these problems. 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

HMM, yesterday I was running the Mikado and Mallet no problems. 

Today I was indeed running 2 Dash 9's that were pushing off the lead car's truck off the track. Come to think of it they were also the engines I was running the last time I had the problem. 
It is wierd though since my curves are much greater than 8' the body mounts on the dash 9's must be part of the problem. The box cars are also lighter than the USA coal cars so that also seems to fit. 


Do you think the Kadee's will fix the problem?

Thank's Ron


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

G guage body mounted couplers work the best for pulling long trains with no issues.Thats all i use........ As far as the car coming off the track, Aristo hoppers cars are very light, i had issues with a few of them after converting to metal wheels and kadees. ive found that adding a little weight to the lower bays improved them greatly. i just stopped by my local tire shop and they gave me a big box full of wheel weights to use for these cars. Kadees are the best way to go, Also you can sell the aristo couples here on the forum and recoupe ALL your money for your Kadees. Aristo couplers just arent really made very well to start with and to use with a long train you are just lookin for trouble. Heres a video of a small hopper train i was running on a freinds layout with small dia curves with no issues with the kadee equipt pieces. As you can see the 1st loco seperated with USA couplers i did this as a test to see if USA would work better than Aristos with Kadees. there not good either but the 2nd loco and all the cars are kadees and now the 1st loco has been converted to Kadees as well


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are seeing derailment at about the same point, I'd take a hard look at that area. Might even want to try and put a camera on a flat car and make a video of your trains running around. Areas where I thought my railroad was flat had small deflections. 

I really don't think your couplers are the problem.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ron, body mounting couplers, as Nick mentioned has a number of advantages. 

Given broad enough curves, my opinion is that it's all positive. 

In the case of a Dash 9, the overhang of the end of the loco is severe... this will put a lot of stress on the coupler of the car following it. On a body mount coupler, that stress is transferred to only the body/frame of the car. 

In the case of truck mounts, ther stress is transferred to the truck in a twisting motion, and literally tries to make the truck drive off the rails. 

Try body mounting a coupler on the first car right behind the loco. 

Regards, Greg


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I think we are getting close to the cause and solution here. I know its not the track or the curve radius. The fact that the 2 bay was getting pushed off the track and the USA 3 bay (which is a lot heavier) was not, and the train ran the rest of the day with just swapping out those lead cars would be proof of that. Then the derailing also only happens when running the Dash 9's and not the Mallet Mikado or Fa's is further evidence of that.

I think first I will add a couple of pounds to the lead car and hook it up to the Dash-9, changing nothing else, and see if that solves my problem thinking back I'm pretty sure it will.

I do have the new Kadee 900's arriving today for all the engines and the lead cars so I'm sure that will fix the problem but ill try the weights first just out of curiosity.

Thanks again for all your inputs, Ron


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The coupler on the Dash 9 is already body mounted, so there will not be a lot to be gained there, it's the extreme overhang. 

Body mounting the rolling stock will do it though. You will find the USAT cars body mount very easily, all of them except the cabooses have a perfectly positioned mounting pad. The Aristo cars are a mixed bag. Some, like the latest 2 bay hopper, are pretty easy, just a few #842 shims. Others require cutting and filing, and yet others are a nightmare. 

I agree, I think we have zeroed in on the problem. Surprising even with what is termed "broad curves" this happens... That's one Loooooong loco! Fixing this will also help with E8's and SD70's. 

Regards, Greg


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