# Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine



## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Another new project here in NorthEast Pa.  This time is another (apparently) L.B.S.C. engine or at least one built using some of his design principles.  Again i can only speculate at its age, but it is old enough to have square flanges.  The running gear itself is in fairly good shape and will quietly tick over on a few pounds of air and for the most part has been nicely built.  There are a few small issues that will be dealt with once an acceptable boiler is installed.

Hopefully the boiler can be used to show some points to look for when purchasing an older engine such as this.  The first is the use of soft solder caulk.  This isn't the first engine i've seen with soft solder caulkig and I doubt it with be the last.  Soft solder was at one time an acceptable method for fixing small leaks on a boiler (and I've even seen recent boilers built, and passed,  on the other side of the pond), but I strongly feel that it has no place on even a moderate pressure boiler.

The first picture is of the front flue sheet.  The hole on the top is where the throttle piping exited.  The stud on the left is the blower staypipe and a stay rod is on the right.  Along the circumference of the flue sheet can be seen some gaps, and the darker area around the flues is where a massive buildup of soft solder ran out during the attempt to save this boiler.










Next is the typical lBSC style throttle mounted in the boiler and removed.  This is a basic 90 degree throw throttle with a sliding plate that uncovers a hole.  These throttles tend to be very touchy and usually have an "all or nothing" feel to them.  Also note more soft solder used to seal the throttle mounting screw.  A new needle valve type throttle will be installed in the new boiler for finer control.


















The massively over-riveted longitudinal strap.  The running gear for the engine is visable in the background.









And one of the most important things to check, especially on a coal burner such as this.  A quick measurement was taken to find out where the crown sheet was in relation to the water glass.  This pictures shows that the bottom of the crown sheet is already over the top of the bottom nut for the water glass.  Not a good situation.










Once reboilered this should prove to be a nice running-free steaming engine, if a bit fast.  With a good load behind her she should sond good as well, The smokebox is a full 3" in diameter and 4-12" long!









I can't wait to get another piece of live steam history back and running on the rails againI


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

Most excellent! Will it be done in time for ECLSTS? I was discussing R/C in the quasi-electric-franken-steamer with Jeff today...looks like it will be interesting for sure. 

If this is anything like it's sister engine, it should haul stumps and run for a long time between stokings. Can't wait to see it.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Neat that you are restoring it and have the knowledge/skill to do so. Jerry


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Thanks Ryan. Doubt it will be done by then, but I hope to make a lot of progress before then. I can only hope this engine runs as well as its apparent sister, if so it will besomething to see. Also have a nother project of my own to bring (as if I didn't have enough already!). Jeff's engine will be a hoot, can't wait to see (and hear) both of ours double headed pulling a load. 

Thank you too Jerry. As much as I love building and running engines, I get an added thrill out of restoring something like this. Without the skill and dedication of these mystery builders we wouldn't be enjoying the hobby we are today. Every one deserves the attention and love to keep it going and keeping the hobby strong and I consider it an honor to be able to use my talents to do so.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

So you have a riveted boiler that has been chaulked with soft solder. What is the problem? The solder does not provide any mechanical strenght in this case and this is perfectly safe. No need to raise panic when there is nothing to panic about.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Havoc, with all due respect I don't think I am raising a panic. I understand that the solder is not adding any mechanical strength to the boiler itself but I cannot feel comfortable with a boiler that has a potential weak spot (for leaks to occur) built in. Also, not having any documentation with the boiler there is no way of knowing exactly what solder was used, I cannot be guarunteed that it is even of an acceptable melting point. It may have given many years of reliable service in the past, though that is doubtful due to it failing a hydro test at one of the aforementioned joints. Also, and if I am wrong somene please correct me, but I've yet to hear of anyone passing a boiler with this method of sealing over here in the states. The general application of the solder, as well, raised my hackles slightly with large globs of it being applied instead of nice smooth fillets. This may be attributed to a heavy hand on the builders' part but why take a chance?


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like a smaller version of the 3.5" gauge 'Hielan Lassie'.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Tac 

Justin didnt state but it is the 3.5" scale one...Hehe About the same size as his K27 pretty much HAHAA


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Work officially began tonight.  Not much progress but the shell is formed and pilot holes for the fittings drilled.










Tac and Jay, this is a gauge 1 engine, a bit of a big one though.  Coincedentally I did just buy a 3.5" gauge 'Hielan lassie'  so I can't really agree that is a scaled down version of that if for no other reason than cylinder placement.
vault1.secured-url.com/reeves2000/images/model/line_images/hielan_line.gif
The closest larger scale engine I've found (at least on Reeves' site) is called 'Doncaster', but thats already a 5" gauge design.
vault1.secured-url.com/reeves2000/images/model/line_images/doncaster_line.gif

Here's a few pics of the engine itself, one with a soda can for size reference.  Anyone have an idea what this is?



























And even the family dog can't resist looking at a fine little engine like this!  (Dog not an accurate scale reference).


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

You should have a "how to build proper copper boilers, class/book by now lol, naa, it would take away from engine shop!

Keep up the good work, it has to be fun to have one run after you put all the work into it!

Andrew...


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Justin,
            Hmm, The tender with bar framed bogies[trucks]  somewhat over scale bolier, 
Walschaerts gear in "all square layout"  and freelance appearance of the cab suggest an adaptation of LBSC design by a US builder..not Hielan lassie possibly an extended "Doris" 4-6-0..


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, so I got it wrong, eh?  Please read what I wrote - 'Looks _*like *_a smaller version of the 3.5" gauge 'Hielan Lassie'.   'Like' as in 'similar to', not a replication or perfect copy of, but as in 'of similar general appearance', 'not a *lot *different' - OK?

Sheesh.

While we are nit-picking, I have to say, from personal experience, that with its *GENERAL APPEARANCE* ,especially the two-truck tender, it looks a *LOT *like 'Southern Maid' on the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway, a 15" gauge line in Kent.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Tac may be more accurate in his 'nits', but my guess would be it was based on an LMS Coronation.   They had parallel boilers, and were seen without smoke deflectors.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Naw. With that two-truck tender - VERY unusual in the UK on real locos, BTW, I still think that it's a model of a 15" gauge loco...such things are not uncommon here in UK.  I can't show you a piccie, due to the gweth on my computer, but have a look at the RH&D site and 'Green Goddess' and you'll see what I mean.  'Green goddess' like other locos on the RH&D, DOES actually have a two-truck tender - necessary to fuel the train on the 13-mile length of track.

This model of Mr eccentric's actually looks like a model, rather than a real loco.  

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Dear Mr Eccentric - you wrote - ...and I've even seen recent boilers built, and passed, on the other side of the pond...' 

Bearing in mind that I am not a skilled craftsman like you, merely a dabbler in steam models, I am very interested to learn where you saw soft-soldered boilers built and passed. I built my first boiler, a small one for 'Rob Roy' in 1960, and that was brazed and silver-soldered with two grades of solder. 

Apart from a rather dodgy repair to a Mamod boiler, that did not need to be certified, I have never seen a soft-soldered boiler 'built, and passed', in my life, and I was 62 last week. 

We have four certified boiler testing engineers in my little group, and not a one of them has ever seen a soft-soldered boiler offered for test in the UK - and by the way, one tester builds full-size steam road locomotives, as well as 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 scale, to the design patented by his great-grandfather in 1897.   Additionally, talking to a boiler-builder for the Gauge I Association, he remarked that he would run a mile if he saw such a thing. I'd be right there alongside him, I assure you. 

If in UK, please let us know where you saw this taking place. We might be quaint and rather odd by your standards, but we ain't stoopid. 

tac 
Southern Federation of Model Engineers 
7.25" Gauge Society


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 03/12/2008 10:58 AM
Naw. With that two-truck tender - VERY unusual in the UK on real locos, BTW, I still think that it's a model of a 15" gauge loco...such things are not uncommon here in UK.  I can't show you a piccie, due to the gweth on my computer, but have a look at the RH&D site and 'Green Goddess' and you'll see what I mean.  'Green goddess' like other locos on the RH&D, DOES actually have a two-truck tender - necessary to fuel the train on the 13-mile length of track.

This model of Mr eccentric's actually looks like a model, rather than a real loco.  

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


Tac may be right - here's a pic of Green Goddess, complete with 8-wheel tender.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## artgibson (Jan 2, 2008)

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## jmkling (Jan 2, 2008)

Justin,

Looks like you are getting some practice on a boiler about the size of one that would be needed for a K-36/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

Justin,

      Best of luck with it.  hope to see you with it a PLS.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac, no criticism intended on my disagreement.  It does look like, if this engine IS built to look like any prototype, 'Green Goddess' could be it.  Thanks to everyone for the pictures/guesses.

Jon, Brit, Andrew, thnaks for the kind words too.  I just wish the engine were staying with me, but I'm sure the owner will have many enjoyable runs with it.

Now on to the Soft Solder vs. Hard Solder discussion.

Posted By tacfoley on 03/12/2008 11:51 AM
Dear Mr Eccentric - you wrote - ...and I've even seen recent boilers built, and passed, on the other side of the pond...' 

Bearing in mind that I am not a skilled craftsman like you, merely a dabbler in steam models, I am very interested to learn where you saw soft-soldered boilers built and passed. I built my first boiler, a small one for 'Rob Roy' in 1960, and that was brazed and silver-soldered with two grades of solder. 

Apart from a rather dodgy repair to a Mamod boiler, that did not need to be certified, I have never seen a soft-soldered boiler 'built, and passed', in my life, and I was 62 last week. 

We have four certified boiler testing engineers in my little group, and not a one of them has ever seen a soft-soldered boiler offered for test in the UK - and by the way, one tester builds full-size steam road locomotives, as well as 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 scale, to the design patented by his great-grandfather in 1897.   Additionally, talking to a boiler-builder for the Gauge I Association, he remarked that he would run a mile if he saw such a thing. I'd be right there alongside him, I assure you. 

If in UK, please let us know where you saw this taking place. We might be quaint and rather odd by your standards, but we ain't stoopid. 

tac 
Southern Federation of Model Engineers 
7.25" Gauge Society

I admit, Tac, very poor wording on my part and I do apologize for that.  The boiler was Silver Soldered and then Caulked with "Soft Solder" (Keep in mind when I hear the words soft solder in brings to mind a low melting point).  I was Reading this page www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk/me/locos/25inch/helen%20longish/helen26.htm and in particular this section :

"Some thought was then given to the side stays. I had already decided to use 1/8" copper rivets for the stays which will be threaded 5BA and screwed through both the inner and outer wrappers. The ends inside the firebox will have brass nuts fitted and caulked with high melting point soft solder (Comsol). I think it would be virtually impossible to silver solder these inside the firebox without the use of Oxy-Acetylene equipment which I do not have access to. I had originally planned to soft solder the outer heads of the rivets as well but I reckon it will be fairly easy to silver solder these instead judging by the ease with which I managed the foundation ring."

I do note later in the page that he mentions that the "Comsol" (a name I'm not familiar with) melts at 300*C.  With quick glance at the Suppliers' page (or manufacturers', I'm not sure which) www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx, and given that he doesn't mention any specific alloy/name I was not able to find which product this gentleman used.

One of the problems is that someone may find a solder with a highly listed melting point and call it good.  They do not take into account the temperature range in which the solder is not yet solid (Solidus-the lower temperature range) and when the solder actually flows as a liquid (Liquidus).  A  silver bearing solder (That I'm assuming the mentioned Comsol Is based on this found on the above  Suppliers' web page)  that "melts" at nearly 300*C (280*C in this case www.acmeref.biz/Kpublic/Documents%5Cstaybright&staybright%238.pdfcould warning, this is a .pdf file) have a solidus of 221*C.  Even though saturated steam at a Pressure of 65 P.S.I. is at a temperature of 148*C  (From here www.efunda.com/Materials/water/steamtable_sat.cfm), there is always the possibility of something happening (water running just a little low, running down grade and accidentally exposing the crown sheet), the temperature rising and bringing that particular joint above the solidus temperature, even briefly, and disturbing the joint.  This may cause nothing to happen, it may cause nothing more than an annoying small leak, or it _could_ possibly make a leak big enough to scald someone.  I do doubt, especially in boilers this size, that anything would develop that would cause serious injury, but you never know.  Call it raising a panic or even being overly cautious, but I wouldn't want, as I said in an earlier post, to take the risk.

Looking at the suppliers' page again, the Comsol has a solidus of 305*C.  This would account for an unheard of steam temperature of 1,335 P.S.I., and I doubt any normal running with a good amount of water in the boiler would ever let any of the joints up to this temperature.  This, should, give many fine years of satisfactory service.  I wouldn't fault your boiler inspecter and yourself from distancing yourselves from ANY higher pressure boiler entirely soft soldered, riveted or not.

Also, I beleive there may be a cultural divide on the use of this type of culking in a boiler.  I've never heard of anyone over here using anything but silver solders of different melting points to build a boiler (not a silver and a silver bearing solder).  Once again, if I'm wrong here please correct me.  Then again it could just be my own personal feelings and I could be publicly making a fool of myself for standing up for something with a shaky premise.  And I do still stand behind my decision on this particular boiler as again, I know nothing or the previous history of the boiler or any of its construction.  Based on what I saw of the soft solders' behaivior during the repair attempt it did not look trustworthy.

Please, also keep in mind that I am not trying to be combatitve about any of this.  If I come off as that again I apologize.  There's nothing wrong in my eyes with a good discussion and if someone come out of it learning something new (I have so far even just researching for this post) then it was a disussion worth having.  I may have missed some key points so if there is anything that I didn't touch on please let me know.

Justin Koch


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Dear Mr Koch - many thanks for you detailed and informative post on solders and their use - I certainly learned a lot from it.  Please realise, though, that there are very great many live-steam modellers over here in ALL gauges who would be horrified at the thought of building a boiler using anything other brazing and varying MP grades of silver solder, even for caulking. 

The model that you are rebuilding was in all probability built some time after WW1 and before WW2. Your effort to build a new boiler for it using modern constuction methods can only be praiseworthy, and I congratulate you on your effort so far. 

As for being offended, please don't worry about it, I was not in any way the slightest bit put out by your post, only trying to find out where you say these dodgy soft-soldered boilers here in UK so that I can stay well away. Bear in mind that over here ALL boilers that may be used in a public place are required to have a test certificate - we have just done our 'Romulus' boilers here at my local steam club, and even our teeny G1 boilers are required to be tested every so often. 

No doubt Mr Pullen can put me right there. 

Best wishes 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Secretary RMSRS


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

In ALL discussions of "toy" boilers, it really needs to be restated about the difference between "solder" and "Silver Solder". Way too many home "enthusiasts" that may grab the ol' spool of electrical 60/40 solder and a short section of chrome sink pipe and try to make a boiler, if there is not a CONSTANT discussion of safety. Sometime people just don't "THINK" about what they are doing.


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## Havoc (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Nobody here want to notice that this boiler does not rely on soft solder to stay together? It is riveted! Those rivets are what is keeping it together, not the soft solder. And before someone starts again how unsafe that is, keep in mind that this was the way real boilers were build: riveted and chaulked. You could remove all the solder and steam it it would not desintegrate. Leak as **** probably but it would be safe if the safety valve is working. This is not a dodgy construction. Maybe it isn't a contemporary. 

It is really worrying how people turn off their brains when they read a few words and then assume the rest without taking in all the facts.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Tac, I can only hope that the vast majority of the hobby is aware of what solders are approprite.  And that those will let the minority know before an issue arises.  I am glad so far that this seems to be true.  Thank you for a a calm discussion and the kind words.  I only worry about how things are taken as sometimes tit's all to easyo take the written word on a message board in the wrong context or in the wrong way.

Semper, Again a good point.  "Safety First!" was a consant motto in the larger scales (to the point that it was alway printed somewhere in my Modeltech magazines as a constant reminder) and there's no reason not to keep the practice going.

Havoc, at this point all that I'm going to say is that it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I don't know where you're getting the idea that "Nobody here want to notice that this boiler does not rely on soft solder to stay together?".  If you'll look at my 6th repy you'll see that I'm admitting the soft solder is not adding any mechanical strength, and then in my 20th reply I made this statement "may cause nothing to happen, it may cause nothing more than an annoying small leak, or it _could_ possibly make a leak big enough to scald someone.".  I would like to know where you saw anybody state that this boiler would "desintegrate" due to a failure of the solder?  And, no, this is not contemporary construction, as far as the U.S. is  concerned.  While we genereally do not require inspections on boilers this small i have heard of it  and if the boiler contains soft solder or even if the owner cannot say if it is or isn't soft soldered it may cause it to fail relegating the engine to a mantle.  

Also, the references that I have make no mention of caulking with solder on a full size boiler.  The one "Steam  It's genreation And Uses" by the Babcock &Wilcox Company Copyright 1955 refers only to the ASME codes which only allow for all steel welded boilers so I think that it is safe to assume that caulking was not allowed by this time.  My other reference I cannot find at the moment, but it pre-dates this book and I distinctly remember it mentioning that the caulking was performed by using a round nose chisel along the joints and around the rivets (which is why if you look at an older riveted boiler you may see a line aound the bottom of a rivet head where it contacts the boiler plate).  If solder caulking was allowed on boilers in Europe i would be genuinley interested to know.

And to summarize:
Will a properly riveted copper boiler with a higher melting point "Soft Solder" fail catastrophically?  Most likely not.
Will a higher melting point "Soft Solder" ever get to a high enough temperature to melt in a boiler operated by someone who is properly trained?  Most likely not.
Is the use of "Soft Solder" as a caulk looked down on in the U.S.?  Yes


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

_Congratulations on keeping your cool while all around are melting/flaming..._


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Well its been a little while but finally made some more progress. Have the throttle all planned out as well so hopefully things will go pretty quickly now. 

The front flue sheet was flanged and turned 









For a nice fit in the boiler barrel 









The Firebox sheets were flanged and formed 









And then the parts were rivited and silver soldered together 









There are still some rivits that need touching up, but I'll do that when I solder the flues or the stay to the top of the firebox.


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

Looks great as always! Should be a ferocious steamer with that deep firebox.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Beautiful work, Sir, well worth keeping in a journal on 'how to do it properly'. 

Looking forward to the next instalment. 

tac the Griper 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Alan in Adirondacks (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

Beautiful work. Thanks for the post to keeping the rest of us updated..... 

Best regards, 

Alan


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

Nice work. The hole pattern for the flues kind of looks like the smile on our faces when your run your K-27 coal fired engine!


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys, glad everyone enjoys it all. The engine should prove to be a nice easy steamer, though some of the firebox's depth will be removed after the final fitment. Should bring a lot of smiles with this one as well, I am re-working the exhaust to provide a stronger draft so hopefully she'll bark unlike her bigger cousin. Also thinking about doing some experimenting on my K. If I do I'll post up the results.


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## deWintonDave (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Slipped Eccentric on 03/11/2008 8:46 PM

Anyone have an idea what this is?

I think I've seen something like it in a stack of old magazines that I'm working my way through, I'll need to check through them. I'll let you know if I come up with something. 

Dave.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

You could always send a photo and request to the editor of the UK's 'Model Engineer' magazine. 

They are always posting piccies and requests for identification of older models, devices, tools and contrivances in the editorial pages of this very long-standing publication. 

Since it remains my opinion that this model originated in the UK, where LBSC came from, it is more likely that you'll find the answer to your question there, rather than in the USA. 

My $0.02. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Dave, if you fimd anything I'd appreciate it. Tac, I know this engine came from England or somewhere in the U.K., but I imagine if it were seriallized in a magazine someone would remember it. I agree more with your earlier guess that it's most likely freelance. At any rate I've got the throttle pretty much done and ready to install. The first picture shows the entire assembly from the front sheet (left) to the backhead (right). 








The actual throttle is internal and is a simple needle valve. The hole in the body will face will face upwards to act as the drypipe. 

The next picture (sorry for the blurriness again) is of the front end of the throttle taken apart. 








The ring around the pipe will be soldered to the front flue sheet.  The bushing on the front of the pipe then bolts to this with four 2-56 screws and will eventually have a gasket. The superheater tube then goes into the front of the whole assembly with the nut sitting to the left of the picture. The superheater pipe will have a tapered ferrule thats seats inside the bushing with the hollow nut pushing the ferrule against the seat, similar to the way the brakelines on an automobile assemble. 

Hopefully this will make it relatively to get the throttle out if work ever needs to be done to it.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin - looks great! I have a couple of questions if I may. First, Kozo recommends using EasyFlo 45. One of the reasons he mentions is that the melting point and flowing point are very close. Have you used this stuff? 

Second, what torch are you using? I'm looking at various models for just this sort of work. I currently have the Smith Little Torch Oxy-Acetelyne rig. It works just fine for everything I've done up to now, but I haven't been silver brazing boilers either. I see that they make a heating tip for it. What torch are you using if I may ask? 

Third, what are you using to pickle after brazing? 

Thanks.&nbsp


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 04/16/2008 10:32 PM
Justin - looks great! I have a couple of questions if I may. First, Kozo recommends using EasyFlo 45. One of the reasons he mentions is that the melting point and flowing point are very close. Have you used this stuff? 
Second, what torch are you using? I'm looking at various models for just this sort of work. I currently have the Smith Little Torch Oxy-Acetelyne rig. It works just fine for everything I've done up to now, but I haven't been silver brazing boilers either. I see that they make a heating tip for it. What torch are you using if I may ask? 
Third, what are you using to pickle after brazing? 
Thanks.&nbsp " border=0>




Thanks Dwight! And questions are always welcome. I tried looking locally for EasyFlo45 but never found it. So instead I use Harris Safety-Silv45 ( http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/alloys.asp?id=30 ). I've never used the EasyFlo so I cannot compare the two, but the Harris product works well for me. The only bad thing is that it does have Cadmium in it so ventilation is a must. They do have a Cadmium free version though. 

For my torches, I bought an oxy-acetylene kit that included a cutting head and a few different sized tips. For the majority of my solder I use a #2 tip similar to this http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=357541&WT.svl=357541. When it gets to the point of soldering together larger assemblies I swap to a big rosebud tip similar to this http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=6932&WT.svl=6932. I've been able to solder from very small to very large parts using only these two tips, though sometimes if its only a small detail part I'll use a plumbing torch with MAPP gas. I've heard people not reccomend and oxy-acetylene torch as it can put too much heat in one spot and can melt the copper. If you're careful while you're learning you'll see how the metal reacts as it heats up and that shouldn't be a problem though. I only have issues if I'm tired or pushing myself at this point. 

My pickle bath is a 10% solution of Sulfuric Acid in water. I picked up the acid at the auto parts store. Depending on how some parts are assemebled (the flanged and riveted firebox for example) I'll assemble it, pickle the parts and then apply the flux and solder to make sure I get a nice clean joint.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Thanks a lot for the info Justin. I have some experience with oxy-acetylene rigs - both the small one I use at home and full sized versions I used at work. I just found out that Smith makes a rosebud for my Little Torch. I think I'll pick one up and try that first since I already have everything else for it. 

I also appreciate the tip on where to obtain sulfuric acid. I was wondering where to get that stuff. Never even thought of an auto parts store.


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## baggo (Apr 18, 2008)

Hi Everybody, 


As the owner of the website quoted from earlier in this discussion, perhaps I may be allowed to comment on the hard/soft solder debate? 

It is still perfectly acceptable practice in the UK for the use of soft solder caulking on boiler stays PROVIDED the stays are threaded and nutted on the inside of the firebox. The solder used must be a high melting point silver bearing soft solder such as Comsol (from Johnson Matthey). Ordinary plumbing or electrical solder are certainly not acceptable. 

As mentioned, the solder offers no structural strength to the stays, this comes from the threads and nuts, and is merely a sealing agent. Overheating and melting of the solder due to allowing the water level to get too low would merely cause the stays to leak. The boiler would still be structurally sound. 

The only reason that this method of sealing the stays was used in this particular boiler described on my website (for a 2½" gauge Helen Long) is the very narrow firebox which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to silver solder the ends of the stays inside the firebox. I myself would not use this method in a larger boiler where it was possible to use normal silver solder. 

It would not now be acceptable in the UK to use soft solder in any other part of a NEW boiler and any boiler inspector would, quite rightly, condemn such a boiler if offered for test and inspection. I cannot say for certain but an older boiler using the riveted/caulked construction which passed all the tests MIGHT be passed for further service. It would probably depend on the particular inspector or club. 

I hope that clarifies the situation over here. 

John


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## deWintonDave (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Slipped Eccentric on 04/16/2008 9:51 PM
Thanks Dave, if you find anything I'd appreciate it. 




Justin, 

I think it may be derived from L.B.S.C's "Ford Pacific". Picture to follow later. 

Dave.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By baggo on 04/18/2008 4:41 AM
Hi Everybody, 
As the owner of the website quoted from earlier in this discussion, perhaps I may be allowed to comment on the hard/soft solder debate? 
It is still perfectly acceptable practice in the UK for the use of soft solder caulking on boiler stays PROVIDED the stays are threaded and nutted on the inside of the firebox. The solder used must be a high melting point silver bearing soft solder such as Comsol (from Johnson Matthey). Ordinary plumbing or electrical solder are certainly not acceptable. 
As mentioned, the solder offers no structural strength to the stays, this comes from the threads and nuts, and is merely a sealing agent. Overheating and melting of the solder due to allowing the water level to get too low would merely cause the stays to leak. The boiler would still be structurally sound. 
The only reason that this method of sealing the stays was used in this particular boiler described on my website (for a 2½" gauge Helen Long) is the very narrow firebox which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to silver solder the ends of the stays inside the firebox. I myself would not use this method in a larger boiler where it was possible to use normal silver solder. 
It would not now be acceptable in the UK to use soft solder in any other part of a NEW boiler and any boiler inspector would, quite rightly, condemn such a boiler if offered for test and inspection. I cannot say for certain but an older boiler using the riveted/caulked construction which passed all the tests MIGHT be passed for further service. It would probably depend on the particular inspector or club. 
I hope that clarifies the situation over here. 
John




Welcome to MLS John, I enjoy reading your pages and if you find time I hope you stick around here and can pass along some of your insights. Thank you for your response as well. It's always nice getting the info right from the horse's mouth so to speak. I still doubt that method is acceptable here (even for caulking stays), but I cannot remember ever hearing it causing an issue over there. Thanks for the clarification on caulking the other parts of the boiler. The one being discussed here had both the front flue sheet's flange and the flues caulked, not acceptable in my opinion. 

Dave, can't wait to see the pics. 

As for the new boiler, the flues are in the firebox. The rear sheet has been formed and some of the bushes have been turned and threaded. I'll post pictures this weekend.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a long over-due update. Have the rear sheet formed, with the lower water gauge bush and the throttle gland soldered in place. The throat sheet is formed and the bushes for the safety valves have been soldered to the shell. 

Here's a couple of the backhead, mocked in place and with the bushes soldered on. 


















The throat sheet next to its former, and mocked in place. 


















Girder stay, and both soldered to the firebox. 


















Safety valve bushes soldered to the shell. 









And the front throttle bush, with the steam pipe in place.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Looking Good!! What did you end up using for the safety's?


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Nice work! Jerry


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys! I ended up buying safeties from Polly Engineering.


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

Looking Great!!!


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Hey Justin, 
Do you have a web site for Polly Engineering? 
Man is that boiler looking good. 
Noel


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

You should write a book on how to build one of these boilers. 

DAYoung


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Polly is Bruce Engineering.... Google Bruce and it comes up as the 2nd one in the list or so.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys! Brit and Noel, hope to see you at PLS tomorrow. Noel, here's the address for Polly http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/. Be careful though, they all all sorts of nice things there. Dave, thanks for the compliment, but I dunno if I'm good enough to write a book ( considering the good ones already out there). I would like to design a small coal fired beginners engine though. Maybe someday...


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 
Won't make PLS this weekend. Have to take daughter #2 up to Philly to look at a new car for her since she totaled her Durango a month or so ago. Thank God she was able to walk away from that disaster. Now she has a very nice set of wheels spoted at a dealer in Philly. A 2003 BMW with 30K on it. Got to look it over carefully. 
Have fun at PLS and thanks for the Polly site. 
Noel


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Another quick little update. 

The safeties arrived, and they look great! 









The last tap and die arrived, so I have the check valve bushings in place. 









And the throat sheet is soldered in place and trimmed (though I don't have a pic of that yet). It will look like a proper engine again soon!


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Finally an update. The firebox is in! Have to add a few small parts to the backhead and then thats ready to solder in place. 



















Added the bush for the blower line and changed the gland on the throttle shaft from a cap type to a stuffed type. Also soldered on the manifold. The pressure gauge will go on the left and the blower on the right. 









Some blower line parts. Changed my mind and went to a 90 degree valve and I'll need to make a banjo fitting to get the line to the backhead. I'll have pictures of that soon.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

The Firing hole is in.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin; 
Want to design and build your own engine? Well, I have the frame, drivers, siderods and mainrods plus some other parts for a 7/9ths 2-6-0. Talk to me man. It would make a beautiful coal fired loco. 
Noel


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

That is coming along beautifully! I can't wait to see what's next!


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry - overlapping posts. 

tac


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Noel! Sadly, as much as I'd love to, at this point I have too many projects going to start another one. Would be a very nice project and I am interested though! Going to be at PLS this weekend? 
Steve, thanks for the kind words! I'll keep posting so long as there's people interested in seeing it. 
Tonight I soldered the backhead in place for good: 








And after some fiddling with the frame and suspension (the engine had a very noticable forward tilt), I was able to trim the firebox to its final size: 








With the firebox trimmed, I was able to put the boiler in place AND mount up the rear truck for the first time. That's a pretty good feeling! 








A top fitting for the water gauge and the mud ring will finish up the rear of the boiler. Then a steam dome and soldering in the front flue sheet will finish it. After that is the all-important hydro. The goal for this week is to get the mounting holes drilled and tapped to bring the rolling chassis with boiler to the PLS meet.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, after a bit of a hiatus here's another update. And this time it's a pretty big one.

The top mount for the water gauge is in place, which means that except for the firing door mounts and catch the backhead is finished.









I should have drilled the hole for the steam dome before the friebox and tubes went in, but I didn't which meant I had to bore it instead.









The dome bush was then turned and threaded.









And soldered in place.









A nice, big easy to work with plug was turned up. It does have a hollow center for a pipe from the throttle to extend into to act as a dome.









And put in place.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

At that point I didn't need to solder anything more from the inside so the front flue sheet was ready to go in.

First the front throttle bung was soldered in.









The front fitting for the blower line was soldered on to the blower line itself. Another one that should have been done while the line was outside of the boiler. Make sure you're paying attention to the order of assembly for those of you playing at home... Unfortunatly I didn't get a clear picture of it.

The front flue sheet was soldered in place, which means that except for the mudring, the boiler shell is finished!









And finally, the first part of the superheater was formed.









Getting into the home stretch now.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Hey Justin 

Looking like your getting pretty close to fire. I think Stan is looking foward to firing it soon. Dan's track is ready for its maiden run.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Hopefully soon. There are some plumbing issues to sort out and possibly some re-packing, but it will be nice to get this out and move on to something new.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Or finish something old.....


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## Reed (Jan 7, 2008)

That is one fine looking boiler, your work is outstanding !

Reed SA240


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Finally another update. The blower plumbing is complete save for a couple gaskets and some sealant, from the back.









To the cavernous smokebox in the front. The smokebox itself is mounted, again save for some sealant.









And the best news of all is that the boiler passed it's hydro test! It's hard to see ( I really need a better camera) but that's 200 P.S.I. on the clock with no leaks!


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## Steve Shyvers (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

Justin, 

I've been wondering what was up with this project. Thanks for the update. 

Do you always hydro test to 200 psig? What's the planned working pressure for this boiler? 

Steve


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Steve, its been a while and I need to get this done and move on to other projects. I usually do 3x the working pressure for a brand new boiler and 2x for the yearly hydro. The planned working pressure for this boiler is 65 p.s.i. which would be 195 p.s.i. at 3x. Might be a little overkill but doesn't hurt anything as long as it's properly built.


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

I think you are overdoing the testing pressures, 2 x is plenty for the first test and 1 1/2 times for retest every 4 years, this is the reccommended practice over this side of the pond, you will be stressing the copper too much if you repeat to your test presures. 
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks David, good to know. I saw this as a reccomendation somewhere, but it might have pertained to steel boilers.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2008)

*RE: Rebuild & New Boiler for an Old Engine*

The "if a little is good them a lot is better" approach to testing (and other things) seems to crop up quite a bit, in the large scales as often as not, and it tends to come from relatively inexperienced individuals who seek a little authority or recognition or who may attempt to apply inappropriate standards (refineries? nuclear? aerospace?) to model practice. Cooler heads tend to prevail before costly construction is ruined, but not always. I know of more than one boiler which has been ruined by an uninformed and/or overly-excited tester. You will find that David's test pressure recommendation of 2X/1.5X have been the accepted standard throughout the live steam world for decades and have been proven as adequate and predictable indicator of safe condition for miniature copper boilers. As LBSC was fond of saying . . . Nuff Sed!


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## twofoot (Nov 8, 2009)

Update please! Have you made any more progress on her? I'm itching to start on an LBSC "Maid of Kent" this winter. 

Cheers, 

Chris


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Justin, I've just read thru this whole thread (again) on my iPhone! (not an easy task) It's even harder when I'm missing some fingerprints on two fingers (It should be cool enough by now!) I'm planning on working up my skilz slowly and start off with a JvR "C" type alky boiler (I did pick up some Welsh coal from Cole's.) I also found out what flux tastes like trying to put out my fingers! Keep up the fantastic work, I'm glad you don't finish all your work in secrecy (like me) and spring on us when you're finished. Could be I'm scared of ridicule or failure in a most public forum.

As I said, Keep up the great work!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

sweet project


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I read this for the first time, how did I miss it? All I can say is, that is one sexy boiler.


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## Slipped Eccentric (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks guys! 
Dave, if you need anything let me know. Post up your progress, too! 

As for progress on this engine, it's been relatively slow. Once one part is fixed smething else pops up. So far it's been all chassis work. It needed new cylinders.The old ones were soldered together with thin steel tubes as the cylinders which had pitted and could not be saved. I made the mounting holes for both cylinders the same, but the old set had a different bolt pattern on the other side which required wleding the holes in the fram shut and re-drilling. 

The valve gear was loose, to the point of a pin less than 3/32" diameter running in a hole over 1/8" in diameter and some slotted holes. New piston rods were made, the old ones were steel and the bottoms had pitted. New piston rings as I could not get string packing to stay put. It's amazing watching a piece of string shoot out of the exhaust nozzle considering it worked its way out of a piston groove, though the cylinder passages, under the valve then out the exhaust tubng. I am FINALLY at the point of re-assembly (I hope!).


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Justin
Keep honing those tools there is a beautiful beast in the engine house awaiting your skillful hands!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

All of your improvements are really making a tremendous difference! You're going to have a really nice live steamer when you're done!


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