# MTH to be DCC compatible?



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Can some one set me straight on this? I've been interested in MTH for a while now but have always been turned off by the proprietary operating system. 

I keep reading that MTH is going to be "DCC compatible." Does anyone know what that means, exactly? Will you be able to run the full DCS feature set using DCC commands? Or will it just be a more basic iteration--forward/reverse/speed? 


Does anyone know a realistic date for the release?


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the problem I see with mike making his locos work with dcc is that stanard dcc only has 13 fuctions and his system has like 26 or 28 or something like that .....


but I would think we would get more then just make it move .....

last i heard it was going to start at the end of the year ...... but I think each listing will say if it is dcc complaint


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

My 2 cents...

I decided to go with DCS despite my concerns with being restricted with this technology. As I understand it the DCS platform is based on software. As long as MTH is around, software upgrades will be there via the internet. My conclusion is that it will be the software that will help with the ability to command a DCC loco yes? 

Or would there be a need for upgrading the board on DCC locos? 


I really don't know..

gg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

GG this is what I'm wondering too. A while ago I thought hardabout switching to all MTH because I like 1:32, and it seemed like a great system but I already had a bunch of stuff that would be rendered useless if I went to DCS. If there's some degree of cross-compatibility MTH looks much more interesting


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Lownote, I see room for both systems. Nothing is going to waste. Simply choose the system based on the plans for the day. 


So, if I'm cutting the grass or just gardening and need a train to meander around the track while I'm out there... DCC

Garden party or friends: DCS for its enhanced capabilities. Both DCS and DCC locos can run on the same track if the voltage is kept between 10 and 20 volts. 


My triplex will run normally at 10 volts. 


Bye the way, The DCS remote that I have will run DCC locos in conventional mode. Just select it. I don't know yet about the bells and whistles yet...

My remote will even "record" all actions on the remote for up to 90 minutes, save it and play back the recording at will. What this means is that I set my plans for the recording session.... bells, whistles, switches etc..... record it... then when the guests are over ..... I entertain... and the system "plays back". 


gg



PS: I'm counting on the DCS guru's to validate my studies and conclusions here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

Good theory there Gavin!


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By fildowns on 02/22/2009 12:10 PM
Good theory there Gavin!













I'm waiting for the official word on my theory which most of comes from the IMI.... The practical DCS buffs need to comment here


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

*Well you had alot of it rite till you got tot the 10 volt thing, you need at least 18 to mantain proper running and thats the bare minamum 24 volt would be best,plus the hand held at this point will not control any dcc function...*


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

the problem I see with mike making his locos work with dcc is that stanard dcc only has 13 fuctions and his system has like 26 or 28 or something like that .....
Doesn't the NMRA Spec for DCC require 28 functions?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 02/22/2009 2:06 PM
*Well you had alot of it rite till you got tot the 10 volt thing, you need at least 18 to mantain proper running and thats the bare minamum 24 volt would be best,plus the hand held at this point will not control any dcc function...* 






Good feedback here. I reviewed the video which had defined comments on the 10 volt bit. And the ability for the handheld to run a DCC type loco on conventional. I think that what your're saying is that in "real life" it is best to keep the two separate yes? 

gg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

It's hard for me to imagine you could run the two system s at the same time without trouble, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

MTH ProtoSound 3 is DCC compatible as the HO guys have been using it for over a year now.

As of now in Large Scxale their is only ProtoSound 2 but Dave Kriebel (the inventor of DCS) of MTH stated last October at the TCA Eastern Division York. Pa Meet that Protosound 3 will be available in the RailKing One Gauge lineup by the end of 2009.

Here's the MTH spec's for ProtoSound 3.0..



Already Have A DCC System? 

Proto-Sound 3.0 equipped locomotives can be controlled in command mode with any DCC compliant command control system. While the user won't have access to all of the incredible features of Proto-Sound 3.0, independent control over the locomotive is possible. This means you can continue to use your existing DCC controller to independently control your other DCC equipped locomotives in addition to your Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotive on the same track at the same time. 

When using a DCC controller, the following Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotive features are accessible: [*](F0) Headlight on/off [*](F1) Bell on/off [*](F2) Whistle/Horn on/off [*](F3) Start-up/Shut-down [*](F4) PFA initiate and advance [*](F5) Cab Light on/off [*](F6) Engine Sounds on/off [*](F7) Volume low, med, high, off [*](F8) Smoke on/off [*](F9) Forward Signal Sound [*](F10) Reverse Signal Sound [*](F11) Coupler Slack Sound [*](F12) One-Shot Doppler on/off [*](F13) Extended Start Up [*](F14) Extended Shut Down [*](F15) Labor Chuff [*](F16) Drift Chuff [*](F17) Smoke Volume low, med, high [*](F18) Single short whistle toot [*](F19) Coupler Close [*](F20) Feature Reset [*](F21) Idle Sequence 1 [*](F22) Idle Sequence 2 [*](F23) Idle Sequence 3 [*](F24) Idle Sequence 4 [*](F25) Brakes auto/off [*](F26) Cab Chatter auto/off [*](F27) Clickety-Clack auto/off [*](F28) Train Wreck [/list]


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Good to know--makes MTH that much more attractive


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My NCE controller does all 28 functions... wired and wireless (I use wired cabs in the switchyard)...

So what functions will I miss that are beyond 28?

(Also the NCE cab, with more dedicated function buttons, should actually be easier to use, since you have between 10-13 at a time with a single button press)


Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Sooo, DCC allows control of a DCS loco... 

If one has DCS to start, what control is available for DCC locos?

In other words, If I purchase one of these fiesty DCC beasts, can I control it with my DCS system??? 


Stirring up the pot I say.. 

So far, I really need Massoth to have the best of all worlds. 


gg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

My NCE controller does all 28 functions
So does my Prodigy Wireless.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By lownote on 02/22/2009 4:21 PM
It's hard for me to imagine you could run the two system s at the same time without trouble, but maybe I'm wrong. 


Well Lownote given the comments I suspect you are right. The only way to find out is for me to test the system. I will have MTH on board in a couple of weeks and yes... I have my Flagship LGB xmas DC Loco.... 


I will experiment and report back over time. 


"Going where no train has gone before" 

I had better stock up on fuses yes?









gg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys have it almost completely correct. But not quite. 

Protosound 2.0 will not run a DCC engine. If you own a large scale locomotive from MTH, its PS 2 equipped and will not be command controllable from a DCC system. When Protosound 3 boards come out later this year, they will be DCC compatible. That will mean you will be able to control the MTH locomotive with a DCC system. You will have access to the first 28 things the locomotive can do. See above for the list. (Greg - even the old engines like a Hudson have 50 or so distinct sound or light features. Every one is controllable from the remote. Another example is newer engines have a remote coupler that is controlled by the remote) 
To get Protosound 3 in any locomotive you own now means you will take the PS 2 board out and replace it. It is not going to be a software upgrade. 

PS 3.0 is not polarity sensitive. I guess that is better for some people. It will make it easier to find and load engines I suppose. You will be able to have reverse loops that are run exactly like DCC does now. (instead of having to wire them like LGB analog systems) 

Another almost correct isssues. You absolutely can run your Proto 2 equipped locomotive under full DCS controll at 10v. In fact you can run it at any voltage up to 24v. There is only one thing that is affected by lower input voltage, and it isn't the sound or the smoke. Its the highest speed the locomotive can run at. I have run my hudson inside for 100s of hours off a 10 dollar 13v 3 amp radio shack DC power supply. The locomotive can not go faster than about 35 scale miles per hour. Sure, you can set the remote to 150 sMPH, but the loco will chugg along at whatever top end is limited to by the voltage potential. Everything else works exactly the same as if you had 24v input. My engines have a minimum start up voltage of about 7v. LGB digital sound locos typically started up around 6v or so. I actually run BOTH at the same time, on the same track all the time. I control the LGB engine by varing the voltage using the LGB throttle. I control the MTH using DCS. (both use the same power supply, the TIU is between the throttle and the track) Its easy, and the system was actually designed to do this. (or so I was told all those years ago) 
Outdoors, I do the very same thing, except I use a much more powerfull power supply.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's good to know--thanks. I'll be looking into this closely


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## Enginear (Jul 29, 2008)

I might have missed it but the MTH engines have a huge number of sound, lighting, etc. effects. There are more than 28 by my count. Most sound effects play automatically. With DCS you could reach them all with the more softkey if desired and move them around making your favorites for each engine easy to get. I believe that the new dcc boards are fixed functions or will they be mapable like the dcs moves? How could you reach the rest of the functions to move them? With DCS for example, I usually put the forward, reverse, and grade horn sounds first on the remote for ease of use. Each engine has some unique ones that are specific to the engine. Manually raise and lower pentographs on an electric for example. The only things I miss are the longer acc/ dec rates achievable with DCC. Joe


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By John Allman on 02/22/2009 11:24 PM
You guys have it almost completely correct. But not quite. 

Protosound 2.0 will not run a DCC engine. If you own a large scale locomotive from MTH, its PS 2 equipped and will not be command controllable from a DCC system. When Protosound 3 boards come out later this year, they will be DCC compatible. That will mean you will be able to control the MTH locomotive with a DCC system. You will have access to the first 28 things the locomotive can do. See above for the list. (Greg - even the old engines like a Hudson have 50 or so distinct sound or light features. Every one is controllable from the remote. Another example is newer engines have a remote coupler that is controlled by the remote) 
To get Protosound 3 in any locomotive you own now means you will take the PS 2 board out and replace it. It is not going to be a software upgrade. 

PS 3.0 is not polarity sensitive. I guess that is better for some people. It will make it easier to find and load engines I suppose. You will be able to have reverse loops that are run exactly like DCC does now. (instead of having to wire them like LGB analog systems) 

Another almost correct isssues. You absolutely can run your Proto 2 equipped locomotive under full DCS controll at 10v. In fact you can run it at any voltage up to 24v. There is only one thing that is affected by lower input voltage, and it isn't the sound or the smoke. Its the highest speed the locomotive can run at. I have run my hudson inside for 100s of hours off a 10 dollar 13v 3 amp radio shack DC power supply. The locomotive can not go faster than about 35 scale miles per hour. Sure, you can set the remote to 150 sMPH, but the loco will chugg along at whatever top end is limited to by the voltage potential. Everything else works exactly the same as if you had 24v input. My engines have a minimum start up voltage of about 7v. LGB digital sound locos typically started up around 6v or so. I actually run BOTH at the same time, on the same track all the time. I control the LGB engine by varing the voltage using the LGB throttle. I control the MTH using DCS. (both use the same power supply, the TIU is between the throttle and the track) Its easy, and the system was actually designed to do this. (or so I was told all those years ago) 
Outdoors, I do the very same thing, except I use a much more powerfull power supply. 



Looks like I saved myself a few fuses.....


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Hi GG,

You say that "The DCS remote that I have will run DCC locos in conventional mode".

I've just got myself a DCS + TIU to run my MTH Challenger, and am trying to get conventional mode to work on non-MTH locos, with no success so far.
Are you saying that conventional mode controls the basics of a DCC loco?
All I've managed to get is variable AC coming out of the variable output, not a lot of use to a variable DC track power loco.

What is the secret of your success?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi, 

success is relative and yes I have read that the Remote can direct a non MTH engine in conventional mode. (variable power) I am not that far into my remote yet and have yet to play with this. 

Comment however is when I load up a loco to the TIU/remote, I have a choice: MTH engine or a NON-MTH engine. 

With your TIU purchase came a CD explaining the technology. Have you listened to this in its entirety? 

I truly suspect that engines can be run by variable power via the Remote. Let's not confuse this with this Remote taking over the functions of DCC.... It can't. 

hope this helps and I'm sure that other people will chime in here. 

gg


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

You say that "The DCS remote that I have will run DCC locos in conventional mode". 


not for our purposes. What that means is the varible outputs of the TIU can change the AC voltage output, using the remote,and so doing control a conventional O scale locomotive. 

That is not useful for you. You can only use the remote to control Proto sound 2 or 3 equipped locomotives when using a DC power source.


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## Westcott (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks.
I guessed this was the case, but hoped it wasn't!

In a 'conventional 0 gauge loco' driven by variable AC, what controls the direction?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

A ratcheting switch in the locomotive that changes from Forward to Neutral to Reverse to Neutral to Foward each time the power is shut off and back on. The push button on the Lionel transformer just interrupted the power while the button was down to cause the switch to move one position. Or if you reduced the power to zero (off) it did the same thing.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Good feedback. I stand corrected

gg


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Well I'll be honest. After watching all of Ray's videos on DCS it is a pretty amazing system for digital control. I especially like the Scale MPH. Unfortunately it seems like the SMPH on non-MTH locomotives will be different because they simply aren't built for DCS, their flywheels are a different size, and they are not 1/32 scale. I'm not sure the optical reader on the flywheel is necessarily the best answer, though it is nice. The big problem is that it seems difficult to convert products of other manufacturers to DCS because of the flywheel optical reader. If MTH made a decoder to accomodate these differences in other manufacturers it would be ideal. A USA Trains SD40-2 optical reader for example, designed to convert the information recieved by the optical reader of the SD40-2 flywheel to a prototypical speed, and also allowing a speed that would keep it in sync with 1/32 trains on the same layout. Now I realize this would cost more money and bring out competition issues, but it would make DCS more user friendly and would surely draw Aristo and USA Trains crowds to DCS. 
Maybe not stop there but since G-scale is so diverse, add 1/20.3 etc. into the mix and make everyone happy since the system would be so easily inclusive to non-MTH locomotives. Don't get me wrong, I plan to go with DCS, but because of the difficulty I'm sure to face in converting my USAT locos to DCS, I just wish it were easier. On the bright side, at least MTH has dealers and there is Ray to help with the conversions. But it would be nice if you could decide your SMPH and set all equipment the same 'scale' so you could have 1/29 and 1/32 a perfect distance apart on the same track. What do you guys think?


-Will


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will, I think maybe one topic of your post is in error, i.e. having to have a "converter" for different scale locos. 

We need Ray or Chuck to come in here, but my understanding is that you set the "gear ratio" of the encoder stripes to the correct scale speed, and you can do it to 1:32 or 1:29 etc. 

Now of course, if you are running different scales on the same layout you have to pick one standard, otherwise your locos will not run at the same speeds for the same "indication". 

So, DCS guys, is the software/firmware flexible enough to "gear" a 1:29 to a 1:32 scale speed? 

Regards, Greg


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Will, 
The DCS conversion kits come with more than one tac strip so you calibrate the exact speed for your loco. Ray can help you with more info on it. 

Also, Ray converted my Bacmann Annie to DCS and it runs great. He also has a Bachmann Annie that has been converted to DCS, these are the only 2 Anies with DCS that we know of. I love playing with mine and I have fun learning about ALL the features of DCS and was actually teaching Ray some things he didn't know about it. If you have the book, READ it!!!!! It tells all about the special features of DCS and how to use them. There is more to DCS than just controlling the speed. 

Cliff


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cliff, I understood that there were settings in the software/firmware to "calibrate" the speed also, do you know this? 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

What amazed me with DCS was the simplicity of getting my loco into the system, up and running. All I did was "push a button" 

Hassle free. 

gg


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## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

quote:

01/22/2009 3:58 AM


Cutting straight to the chase:

BRASS outdoor is the way to go. SS is over rated and any way either will cut the cake for outdoor service. Simply put... both carry the same mtnce issues. This being conductivity or otherwise.. there is no winner. ( conductivity Vs scaling)

FREE FLOAT the track in northern climes and "git-over-the-extra-spring-work" Most of you forum guys really do not understand what "freezing" is and what it means re "frost heave"

DCS technology is best for true "Gardeners"....

DCC is best for "techno-Geeks" 

Focus on: Train product simplicity which in turn allows focusing on the flowers on the range. 

Want a real pic: 1:32 says all. 

Want a prostitute: 1:29 says all. (sorry guys simply an opinion) North America missed out on this one...

gg


PS: strictly a personal opinion.... hopefully allowed on this site 


Unquote:

From this to the above post in 48 days.....

regards


ralph


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes Ralph, it all fits together does it not? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Uhhh.... don't think that was Ralph's point... your old post is definitely old.... 

Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03/11/2009 1:42 PM
Uhhh.... don't think that was Ralph's point... your old post is definitely old.... 

Greg






Yes Greg, my post was definitely old (like I am). What I said in it I consider still to be my beliefs. ( However I might eat crow on the 1:29 bit..... I'm exploring a Bachman Annie 1:20 converted to DCS ) 

There is room for the WOW factor ... 


So, back to Ralph, what did he mean? 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he means that your understanding and opinions have progressed over 48 days. 

You are not making statements like: "Want a prostitute: 1:29 says all. (sorry guys simply an opinion) North America missed out on this one..." 

That is progress in my view. 

This is just my opinion.... 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Brass still sucks for outdoor track power as compared to SS in MOST people's experience... you took your answer from lownote, who is much more tolerant of track cleaning that many others who vocalize what a pain it is.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes Greg, even old salts can be trained. 

I humbly eat crow on the 1:29 bit..... AND if I can fit DCS into it, so be it... 


BRASS REIGNS !!!!









What fun this is. 

gg


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, so I took the post as a compliment to you. 

And brass works outside for some people, but I would not recommend it on DCS, it seems to be more sensitive to dirty track, and to noise on the signal. (Which makes complete sense owing to the technology). 

Regards, Greg


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

I have a plan for dirty track however will not break my back over it. 

Will require a modified loco like a shay.......... When complete, forget about running trains.... just the track cleaner.


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

I have seen the TIU and controller many times but have never seen the Protosound decoder, does anyone have any pics of it and the optical reader so I know what I am dealing with as far as installing it? Maybe put a dime next to it so I can judge the size? Is the optical reader attached to the decoder and are the control and sound decoders 2 seperate entities? Thanks for the info guys, you have really clarified several things for me. 

-Will


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Will, 

I had my Hudson open last weekend, sorry I didn't take pics. I am opening my Triplex in a while and will grab some shots. 

The sensor is mounted at the 12 o'clock slot over the flywheel off the motor and in plain view. Interesting. 


Have you checked Ray's site for info?

gg


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Engineercub on 03/11/2009 2:46 PM
I have seen the TIU and controller many times but have never seen the Protosound decoder, does anyone have any pics of it and the optical reader so I know what I am dealing with as far as installing it? Maybe put a dime next to it so I can judge the size? Is the optical reader attached to the decoder and are the control and sound decoders 2 seperate entities? Thanks for the info guys, you have really clarified several things for me. 

-Will 




There is 2 boards that being a top & bottom board but they're integrated into one.
The optical reader is remote, by that I mean it has a set of wires that plug into the PS2 board.
Using a optical reader with a striped tape is old technology closed loop motor control that's been around for a long time, best example that I can think of off-hand is a record player that had the dots spinning by on the turntable. In fact Lionel has started using a optical reader to control their motors in O Gauge trains
As far as different scales being DCS'd and playing together nicely it's not really a problem, it just depends on what you want your trains to do. 
Have you read the MTH DCS PS2 Upgrade manual that's included with every PS2 Upgrade kit?? It's available online at Protosound2 

Here's a pic of my USA Trains 1:29 Hudson that I DCS'd and it runs the same SMPH as my 1:32 MTH Hudson, Big Boy, Challenger etc.
Oh and MTH has the SMPH thing patented.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's an amazing amount of wires there, is it interconnections between boards? The 2 larger bundles have tons of wires, where do they go? 

I'd love to see a wiring diagram. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh and MTH has the SMPH thing patented.


Now there's a surprise. Who are they going to pick on next for a big legal battle? 

Keith


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## stumpycc (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a picture of the DCS board that was installed in my Bachmann Annie. Hope this helps.

Cliff


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

MTH will probably go after the BNSF Royalty on Model Trains lawsuit against manufacturers since no other manufacturer has the gonads to fight it themselves.

MTH will settle it for all manufacturers just like MTH did with the Union Pacific..


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