# Adding a smoker to an LGB that didn't have one



## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I have a 2020 that came in a starter kit. It doesn't have sound or smoke. I was at Caboose Hobbies in Denver today and was looking at the replacement stacks with smokers. The stock stack on the 2020 is easily removed, and looking at the cut out diagram of the trains in the old LGB catalog - got me thinking. Further, the bottom of the 2020 has plastic tabs and holes for the smoker switch and wires! How can this be? Was there ever a 2020 with smoke option or were they just thinking ahead?


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

If you can solder, adding smoke to about any stainz is easy. you'll need to drop the brick and put in an upper wire to make connection to the stack bolt, and a lower one to make connection to the button on the bottom. you don't even have to take the brick apart... they have handy tabs to solder to.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Well that's good news. Sounds like the plastic on the train, and the brick are ready to go! 

Something like this looks like a good starting place for adding smoke to the 2020: 
Looks exactly the original stack, but with smoke. 
http://www.onlytrains.com/model/trains/65203.html 

Here is the cutaway I was referring to from the old catalog: 
http://fifengr.com/temp/lgb-photo.jpg 

Where are you getting the parts that the smoke stack doesn't come with? In particular, the metal tab that engages the side of the smoke tube (looks like a flash light part). And the switch tab on the bottom? 

Also... once smoke is covered... what's the best way to add sound? Without chuff sensors on the brick, it seems kinda difficult to do well. 
Thanks!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Modern sound units use the motors back EMF to control the chuff. 

It is not timed exactly to the wheels, but is spaced out and changes with the engines speed. 

The hardest part is some come with engine decoders that need the track power separated from the motors such as Zimo. Zimo has back emf sensing for sure and others may have it.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Back EMF, that's pretty neat!

The Steinz 2020 has two pickups on the front, and two on the back wheel. It also has spring loaded tabs that follow the tack between the two wheels. Why it has three track pickups I dont't know, seems like overkill. But sounds like some of that doesn't go to the motor, so would be available.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The middle pickup (shoe) is used by LGB and USA Trains and is helpful in picking up ppower and in doing some track cleaning as they rub the rails. 

When converting these old LGB engines to DCC, the motor must be isolated from track power as well as all the lights. 

The original LGB smoke upgrade included all the pieces necessary, brass strip (77), short tinned yellow wire (78), washer, and the on -off switch plus a longer screw. 

Instructions can be found on the web. http://www.gartenbahn.at/index.php?menuid=44&reporeid=43 look at 2017 page 3 for items 77 and 78.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Many sound decoders have "autochuff", the Phoenix does it with voltage. 

More sophisticated DCC decoders (that also work on DC), like the Zimo, Massoth, QSI will "count" the motor revolutions with BEMF, and then you set a "gear ratio" so that the chuff rate is exactly matched to the driver rpm (and you can set the number of chuffs per revolution)... 

Regards, Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

The BEMF and "gear ratio" sound so cool. So does anyone bother with mechanical cams or even the magnets for chuff pickups anymore?


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Can the smoke upgrade kit still be purchased?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Phoenix users do, because the "autochuff" is only voltage based. Funny though, many put the magnets on the tender wheels, which, of course, does not match the loco drivers. 

Several locos come with chuff triggers, some mechanical contacts, and some electronic. The QSI and Zimo BEMF sensing chuff works so well, most people use it, although both also have inputs for a chuff trigger. 

Regards, Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Of these "chuff triggers, some mechanical contacts, and some electronic".... which does my early 80s 2080S have?

It's amazing that the BEMF stuff is so good.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You asked: "So does anyone bother with mechanical cams or even the magnets for chuff pickups anymore?" 

I answered that question. I'm not an expert on all the variations on LGB stuff, so I don't know. Maybe nothing. 

A good way to learn is pull the loco apart and see! Good practice. 

Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

First off all the 2020 has no mechanical sensors for chuff synchronization, but as Greg pointed out the current ZIMO decoders are with their BEMF adjustment so good (and some adjustment in the CV values) that you don't need mechanical chuff sensors.

Your Stainz is a pretty small engine it doesn't have room for a full scale G-scale decoder such as the MX690 S or V. I recommend for that engine the MX642 which will do a excellent job as it is. Combine this with one of the ultra-flat yet high performance Visaton speakers and you will have excellent sound for your little engine.

Personally I got addicted to chuff synchronized smoke, but given the space in the Stainz front boiler you will have a hard time fitting the ProLine smoke unit or any other fan driven smoke unit into that space. With the onset of chuff synchronization for smoke, I don't care much for the regular Seuthe smoke units and wouldn't bother to put them in - but that is just my personal opinion.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't want to derail the thread, but Axel, I'm unfamiliar with the proline smoke unit... I'm considering a chuff-synced smoke unit, and maybe the 10 watt version of the MX690v... can you start a thread on this somewhere? Like product reviews? 

Thanks, 

Greg


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I agree. The new synchronized wheels, smoke and sound is great!

I thought all decoders where HO sized, didn't realize people were making the circuit boards in large sizes too. Who makes MX642, a google search returns all kinds of weird things.

I saw a video on youtube with a 2020 Stainz that has the Massoth pulse smoke generator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLR6ETjA36k I wish people would post how-to installation videos as compared to all these final product demos!

I suppose the Massoth must be physically smaller. Or they were in there with some major dremmel action on that smoke stack's big bolt. I can't imagine how you get the bolt out of the way to get a smoke generator into the body. 

I noticed that Greg's website doesn't cover the Massoth smoke much since he hasn't bothered with it. And I agree, the Massoth instructions are pretty vague about the chuff inputs and physical mounting.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zimo makes the MX642, and Mx690v. 

So, when you see a decoder with the MX prefix, it is a Zimo product. 

Size matters and here in scale there is lots of room in many locos, hence larger decoders with 5 amps and more capability, and larger speakers for great sound. 

The Zimo mx690V decoder with a heat sink has a lot of features, including motor and heater element controls for smoke units that have separate motors and heaters. 
And if wheel chuff sensors are installed, perfectly timed smoke chuff can be obtained. Back emf timed smoke works great also.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Both smoke units (ProLine and Massoth) are basically the same size (But Proline is less ~ 1/3 the price







) (Size: ~ 2 x 1 1/8 x 1 1/8)

Proline has been optimized to work out of the box with ZIMO MX690V (with the smoke unit I do not recommend the MX642 for the Stainz) which has a regulated low voltage output of 6.5 V (default delivery). You can of course increase the voltage to 9 V to have a little bit more adjustment range in the CV values if you are into fine tuning.

As far as the Stainz goes:

The Stainz has a weight that goes all the way through the boiler and sits also under the smoke stack. That weight needs to be cut, and also the boiler underneath and the bottom plate to the size opening of the smoke unit. Then you can fit the fan driven smoke unit right underneath the smoke stack. You need to by a modern smoke stack (or modify you old one) because the smoke stack you need is nothing more than an outlet for the smoke from the smoke unit. If we would install it, we would use a brass pipe and the bronze mounting ring which allows the pipe to be firmly inserted into the smoke unit. (insert the pipe from the inside of the boiler through the new smoke stack, now insert the smoke unit and push the brass pipe into the smoke unit). I would add extra weight on top of the half weight to compensate for the weight loss of the cut off factory installed weight (I use lead flushing for that). At the end of the boiler towards the cabin will fit the decoder (After you cut some of the weight thinner) and the ultra-flat Visaton fits into the roof space.

The previously available smoke unit from USA Trains (it is back ordered now for 1 1/2 years







) might have fit without too much Dremeling.

For a First Time project the Stainz requires some tight work.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

A nice implementation example of ProLine smoke unit can be found here:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel: 

Am I right in assuming that the MX690 will vary the voltage to the smoke unit heater as well as modulate the fan? 

Thanks, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Chuff cams were useful on sound systems that were only voltage sensitive but didn't track voltage all that well like the Sierra (discontinued) 

It isn't easy to fit the magnets onto the driver wheels but they can be installed on the OUTSIDE of the tender wheels if you use a powered tender. 

DCC conversion of a Staintz type loco is not conceptually hard, but the whole damn thing must be disassembled to make the required changes. There are lots of parts that have to come off. 

see http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips9/lgb_2017_tips.html 

and 

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips6/lgb_tender_tips.html


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

@Greg:

Yes you are absolutely right. We know three different heat setting CV values and we know one to three fan settings (1 for steam engines, 3 for Diesel engines). With those settings you can fine tune everything.

@George:
I personally think the biggest challenge is the space and the work aorund that limited space (cutting into the chassis, cutting the weight and making up for it....)


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Axel- that video of the smoke and sounds is great!


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

So $200 for the MX690V controller, and $45 for the pulse smoke generator. If I was just after pulling power and sound then the LGB tender looks like an option at those prices. But then I'd still be without smoke, let alone fancy new pulse smoke - that sure is georgeous! Only downside for me is thinking of all that hacking on the weights and even worse the body! I'd guess... $100 in labor? What happens to resale value on an LGB if it's been heavily modified?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Question was asked about the LGB parts for the smoke stack by chata86. 

We have a couple at Train-li, call us for a price.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Same Recomendation on parts for my 2080 as well? Probably less hacking on the lead weight to install and there'd be the factory chuff sensors in the brick for MX690 to connect to. I assume the mx690 can plug into factory chuff cables like the massoth.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes your 2080 is much less work and hacking. We don't even need the chuff cables, because ZIMO has perfected the chuff synchronization based on BEMF.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm reading what you're saying while looking at this Stainz cutout from my LGB catalog. Take a look at my notes and see if I'm getting this right.

I suppose that the factory smoke stack works like a bolt to hold the loco together, so you'd have to replace the the lower portion with a bolt. The bolt head would be just below the smoke unit and just above the red line of plastic.

Is there a less expensive option to the MZ690 that doesn't do motor control or digital control? 

The Proline has autoshut off when empty right? How do you fill the smoke unit?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

On our own installs we have a bronze bushing and matching brass pipe. We solder the Brass Pipe to the brionze bushing and the bushing fits right into the smoke units "throat". Therefore the Brass pipe will stick into the chimney (but not fully to the top). We use an dropper, seringe type of device and let the oil flow this way in the the unit. Your location sketch is correct. On this project consider two modifications:

1. Cut the metal portion of the smoke stack out. Glue the aforementioned brass pipe into the plasitc smoke stack.
2. Fill the cavety in front of the motor block with extra weight to make up for the weight loss as well as the main dome

To answer the other questions:

A: The MX690V has its own shut off feature that will prevent the overheating.
B: You could try to use the MX642 - The Stainz is definately in the lower range of power consumption, the smoke unit might, however, push that limit. A sound only decoder is not a good idea, because the sound quality and the synchronization depend heavily on the direct integration with the DCC unit. Please be laso aware that Chuff syncrhonized smoke has its limitation on analog, unless you carry a large enough battery with you. An engine typically on standstill doesn't receive any power, hence the preheating of the element is not there, and depending on the tank content (full or almost empty) you need up to 60 seconds or so for optimal chuff sysnchronized smoke.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

I just wanted to kind of comment on the back EMF chuff... In reality, it's actually probably more accurate than using a wheel trigger. Why? Because that reversing lever in the cab is there to change the valve timing. So, the chuff, actually, the release of the pressure of the steam by the exhaust valve, will change, depending on where teh reversing lever is set. If you have a Bachmann Connie or K-27, you can pull up on the reversing lever, and adjust it. If you move it forward and rearward, you can see the valve (the upper rod going into the upper of the two cylinders up front) move back and forth slightly - changing the valve timing. The amount of steam used, and how it is used varies with the valve timing. This is true whether you're talking about Stephenson, Walshaerts, or Baker valve gear. Stephenson gear was just as effective and efficient as the later types, you just had to crawl up under the locomotive to lubricate it. Visualize doing that on a K-27 with an outside frame, huge counterweights, very low track clearance, and a boiler that sat low on the frame, and you'll understand why... 

Thanks! Robert


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm coming around to understanding the need for DCC to keep this thing heated up and ready to demo at low speed. Makes sense.

What about the smoke bolt, don't you still need a short one to hold the lower portion of the train together?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The steam chest is actually held in place with the screw of the contact lever, so no need for that. The stack also held the weight in place, but since you are cutting of that portion anyhow, you need to seek alternative mounting for the weight.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm no expert but I think it's digital sound control not BEMF getting some extra realism for reversing levers. Personally I think BEMF is less realistic since it doesn't sync the sound and smoke directly to the position of the pistons. All BEMF knows is that the motor is moving (and maybe that it's done a revolution), but it never knows exactly the position related to a home or zero position. I'd prefer hall effect chuff sensors on the pistons that way the simulated effects occur precisely at the moment they should. 

That said, when is someone releasing a pulse smoke unit that has two or three fans so it can also do whistle steam and blow downs at the platform for effect?


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

All of that is alreday accomplished to by using a second smoke unit. The second smoke unit will have a T for distribution to the left and right cylinders. Dividing one unit into three streams takes too much air flow away for the chuff itself.

With all of that said, we cannot fit that easily into a Stainz


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

To circle back to the original thread question.... yes there is a "factory" way to install smoke to the Stainz 2020 thereby turning it into a 2020D. In fact the Stainz starter kits from the '90s often included this as a factory installed option. It was called the 65203 kit (aka 2020/3). Same goes with 2010 to 2010D conversion given a 2010/3 smoker kit. The kits contain a smoke stack, a screw, a yellow wire, a switch (the metal tab on the bottom), and a metal tab that rides against the stack bolt. I think the kit also includes a very small tube of smoke fluid. They're selling for about $40 from what looks like very little original stock on hand at dealers.


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## Chata86 (Dec 5, 2010)

After looking through the old locomotive manual (circa early 80s) I learned the following about the LGB smokestacks.
Smokestacks complete with smoke making devices:
2010/3 18v for 2010D and 2015D
2015/3 18v for 2017D
2070/3 18v for 2071D
2072/3 18v for 2073D
2080/3 18v for 2080D and 2080S
2085/3 5v for 2018D and 2085D

Only the 2010/3 contains a conversion kit and instructions for converting 2010 and 2020 into smoking locomotives.


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw on fleabay yesterday that some yum-yum wants $10 PLUS shipping for JUST the little metal contact piece. I know I have one in a parts drawer... An I really sitting on gold? lol.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

look this is fairly simple 

to retro fit with LGB stack-you will need the bottom switch and will need to solder the single lead wire the contact to the motor tab on the block 
(the other corrent contact is made between the metal shaft of the stack and another wire in the hole where the stack shaft fits-ie one contact is always connected-the other has a switch 

-you may also need to create a groove for this wire by scribing a long grooved slot into the block-the awl on a swiss army knife it perfect -some blocks have it others dont-this keeps the wire from bindingwith the chassis-the block is a snug fit and the groove is needed imho


what you also need to understand is that the original units are between 18 and 24 volts for later -(depends when they were made) 

the bottom line is that the engine needs to run more than fast to get more than a wisp of smoke-like 10 volts plus 

i have several of theses and have retro fitted two stainz from non working - 

the plus is they smoke -even at medium speeds -but lightly-but its still fun 

they are booby proof in terms of operation and installation and maintenance 
they last years 
you dont need to chop up the loco or diminsh its amazing pulling capacity 

the cons are they dont work as nicely as the new ones or even the 5v versions 
they dont work at all -seemingly-if you run prototypcial speeds 

and you do need to turn them off when dry 

i have been wanting to tackle an 'uber stainz' for some time-ie synch smoke, lights, sound, firebox, nice paint 
all using analog-(this is the hang up for me as im not digital 
so far only the paint seems intuitive


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

You need to solder both a wire and copper/brass strip to the front of the motor block. 

Strip is for the outer casing of the stack, wire by LGB was yellow and went from the other motor block tab to the 'switch' n the bottom of the loco. A screw and washer were used on the bottom to make a on-off switch. 

PS, the special bent switch tab can be purchased from Train-Li, and you can make the brass tab, or get one from train-li a sponsor on this site.


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