# How to find a leak in my pond



## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I have an upper pond with a stream that flows into a lower pond.

The pump is located in the lower pond with the water line to the upper pond burried underground.

There is a 15 foot stream connecting the two ponds.

I have a leak someplace and I have not been able to locate it.

If I leave the pump running, I have to add water to the ponds about every other day. The level will drop to the point where there is only about a foot of water in the lower pond and the pump is partially exposed.

However, if I turn the pump off, both ponds retain their water for weeks on end with out requiring addition of more water.

I have checked the stream and i cannot see any evidence of leaking. There is no wetness around the edges. I have adjusted the liner by pulling it up on both sides of the stream.

I can see no evidence of leaking from the pump. I do not remember exactly where the underground line between the lower and upper pond is located. I would have to do a lot of digging. However, I see absolutely no evidence of dampness anywhere along the route where the pipe should be located. 

I cannot leave the pump on if I am going to be gone for more than two days. 

I recently adjusted the pump so that it is setting more vertically than it was. That seemed to increase the speed of water escaping. But how could that haave effected anything? The pump and the line are both under the surface of the water.

I am very frustrated. I can only run the pump when we have visitors now.

Can anyone give me some help on locating the problem without having to dig up the 30 feet of buried pipe running between the two ponds?

Thanks,

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It seems safe to assume that the leak is not in either pond. 

Then it must either be in the "stream" or in the piping associated with the pump. 

It would not make sense that the leak would be on the suction side of the pump, since 1. there's water in there when the pump is not running, and 2. a leak would flow LESS under suction, so since it's not leaking when static you can ignore this. 

So you have: 

1. excessive evaporation from the stream surface 
2. leak in the stream area 
3. leak between pump outlet and where it connects to the upper pond 

If you had this same setup before in similar weather (temperature and humidity) and did not experience this water loss, you can elmiinate #1. 

#3 might be next easiest to figure out. Check the area around the pump outlet and the piping and see if there is excessive water in the soil/surroundings. If you are losing water, something must be wet! 

After trying to figure out #3, then I would try #2, but that seems to be visual inspection, and failing that, pulling the whole thing apart and inspecting liner for breaks. 

You did not mention what the "stream" is lined with, probably rocks... so they could be hiding a leak. 

I wish you luck! 

Greg


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Did you have this problem from the beginning, or did it later manifest itself? If the former, is it possible that you don't have a leak at all, but are loosing your water due to excessive splashing when the pump runs?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Setup a temporary pipe from the pump to the upper pond... maybe use a Sump pump flexible hose. Then if the loss of water persists it is probably in the stream, if not then it must be in the original pipe.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Did you use pvc and glue or poly and quick connects for your buried pipes? 
Sounds like a slow pressurised leak or a canal leak. Plug upper pond water pipe and turn on pump. If lower pond shrinks, it's plumbing. 
Experience frost heave? Earthquakes? Settling from lowered water tables? Animals or kids walking on it? A cracked stream bed. 

John


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## bvdrr (Jan 3, 2008)

Check any where you have a splice in your stream or where it connects to the ponds. Water has a way of seeping under such places.Also check around water fall areas for splashing.


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## caferacer (Jul 22, 2010)

john try a water dye like a yellow ,orange etc put this in your pond run the pump and see if the ground is colored only trouble is you will have to drain of the colored water and refill as the water will be the same color caferacer


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I vote for the sump pump and the garden hose bypassing the orginal plumbing .


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

I will try to find a sump pump and some tubing. 

If you are familiar with Washington, you will realize it is impossible at this time of year to notice water seeping around the edges of the pond or stream. The ground is wet all over and will remain like that until probably April!!

This problem is really hard to figure out.

I have left the pump on for several days with no noticeable loss of water. Then all of a sudden, the lower pond will drop more than a foot in less than a day. I am not kidding, sometimes almost over night the lower pond has lost so much water that only the bottom 3-4 inches of the pump are still under water. Then at other times, I can go for several days without the need to add water.

The coloring of the water sounds like a possibility. I have fish in both ponds. Would the food coloring harm the fish?

The stream has a liner with gravel and rocks on top of it. 

I don't understand the concept of blocking the pipe at the upper pond and turning on the pump. I assume that the pump would not be able to pump water but if there was a leak in the piping someplace then water would continue to flow. However, this also sounds like it would put unnecessary pressure on the pump and might cause it to fail?

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You have fish in both ponds... are any missing? 

Is the possibility of an animal jumping in and displacing water sound like another idea? 

Yes, if you don't have a positive displacement pump, blocking the pump output will be kind of like putting your hand over the end of a vacuum cleaner hose. I think that was an idea to try to make any leak between the pump output and where it enters the upper pond evident. 

Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Not as fast as running it dry..... I was thinking less than 5 minutes. 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi John, is that Washington state or DC? 

I know this must be frustrating for you. 


I was gonna suggest the food coloring, but it already has been mentioned. It won't kill the fish. 

If the plumbing isn't the problem, you can usually trace it to any waterfalls you might have. If the pump is turned off, the water won't go down b/c no water is going over the falls. 

Also, if it's not the waterfalls, could there be some splashing where the water comes down from some height? Still, a foot a day wouldn't explain that. I'd bet on the plumbing or waterfalls. 


I'm sure you will be able to isolate the problem, given all the good advice here. 

Cheers 

Dave V


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## Brendan (Jan 12, 2008)

G'day John, 
I have exactly the same problem with my water feature. Cannot find the leak anywhere. However, I agree with Greg what material did you use for the liner. Could be a rock punctured it. Might pay to pull it up and replace. 
I might try the water die treatment. 

Good Luck 
Brendan.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hope John is OK. Haven't heard from him in some time and wondering if he found the problem.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

A note on pumps. 
From my experience when the outet is blocked or too high for the pump's head, it will cavitate. While this may draw more amps, it's not like you stuck a fork in it. 
Unless there is another mechanical concern, once the back pressure is relieved, the pump will operate as normal. 

The idea was to increase line pressure to see if it was a pipe leak. No water going to upper pond, lower pond going down.... 

John


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Cavitation is the formation of vapor bubbles of a flowing liquid in a region where the pressure of the liquid falls below its vapor pressure. Cavitation is usually divided into two classes of behavior: inertial (or transient) cavitation, and noninertial cavitation. Inertial cavitation is the process where a void or bubble in a liquid rapidly collapses, producing a shock wave. Such cavitation often occurs in control valves, pumps, propellers, impellers, and in the vascular tissues of plants. Noninertial cavitation is the process in which a bubble in a fluid is forced to oscillate in size or shape due to some form of energy input, such as an acoustic field. Such cavitation is often employed in ultrasonic cleaning baths and can also be observed in pumps, propellers, etc. 

Since the shock waves formed by cavitation are strong enough to significantly damage moving parts, cavitation is usually an undesirable phenomenon. It is specifically avoided in the design of machines such as turbines or propellers, and eliminating cavitation is a major field in the study of fluid dynamics. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah but..... we be talking small water fall pump that will never generate those forces.... so your point is?


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

point: You mention cavitation but I didn't know what cavitation was so I looked it up. I'm thinking I might not be the only one who didn't know.


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## dillo99 (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a similar set up - upper pond, "creek", lower pond. I am amazed at how much water I can lose in dry weather when the water is running. I believe it is more about surface area than anything else (for me). Not just the surface of the water but also the rocks that I have half in/half out of the water. Bottom line is that it creates a lot of evaporation. I do have to watch for roots that grow over the edge of the plastic lining. I have large trees in the area and they like to put their toes in the water and they can suck a lot of water!

Your sudden loss of water does not make much sense. I wonder about the animal splash theory. Do you have raccoons around? does the sudden loss ever occur during the day or only at night?

If you do think it is a leak then the bypass is the best way to start.

Good Luck. 

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Somehow I missed this thread....and I had the SAME PROBLEM. Eventually, I found that there was a leak in a taped joint in my "river". There was NO OUTWARD indication of the leak, but I sure lost a lot of water. I found the leak with a water moisture meter. This is a gizmo that your wife uses (least mine does) to measure how moist the soil is in her house plants. I probed all along the side of the water areas where I could with this meter. I has about a 1' long probe on it...so you can probe in about a foot on each side of the areas carrying water. When you get to a wetter area, the probe shows it with a higher meter reading. It took me about a half hour to locate the leak...the ground was substantially wetter there than in the other places I probed.

Here's a link to one of these things. Moisture probe


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Mike, 

That's a winning idea! Never heard of using that technique. 

Dillo99, 

Interesting thinking there, you'll have to set up a critter cam; but I really like your other ideas, roots and esp rocks half in and out of water. Since my entire canal complex is made of concrete, I bet a lot of water creeps up the concrete exposed to the air; osmosis or something like that they call it I think. 

Dave


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Time to resurrect this. 

I experienced 2 leaks in my canal. I'll describe both but to update you, my canal is made from pond liner sandwiched between 2 layers of concrete. Since it's a canal, I had to glue (PVC) the PVC liner in sections. I was somewhat careless in gluing and therein lies problem 1. 

1. Since the sandwich method is nearly impossible to fix, I dumped clay into the canal. It was messy work but it worked. Apparently, the tiny particles find their way into the sandwich and self seal. I've not lost a drop of water since. 

2. I had a second leak but had trouble locating the source. Finally, I found it. It was in the ball joint threads connecting the pump with the water line. I used plumber tape but that didn't work so I then tried plumber putty, painting it into the threads. That worked. 

I'm enjoying the water now.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By SE18 on 27 Apr 2011 06:01 AM 
Time to resurrect this. 

I experienced 2 leaks in my canal. I'll describe both but to update you, my canal is made from pond liner sandwiched between 2 layers of concrete. Since it's a canal, I had to glue (PVC) the PVC liner in sections. I was somewhat careless in gluing and therein lies problem 1. 

1. Since the sandwich method is nearly impossible to fix, I dumped clay into the canal. It was messy work but it worked. Apparently, the tiny particles find their way into the sandwich and self seal. I've not lost a drop of water since. 

2. I had a second leak but had trouble locating the source. Finally, I found it. It was in the ball joint threads connecting the pump with the water line. I used plumber tape but that didn't work so I then tried plumber putty, painting it into the threads. That worked. 

I'm enjoying the water now.

Sodium bentonite clay is highly expansive and is used to seal leaking dams.

Andrew


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I just discovered this thread too, and I've been troubled with with the same problem a couple of times. My pond is fibreglass. and I noticed that the water level dropped pretty quickly after several years of carefree operaton. I let the water drop until it stopped then checked closely around new water level. Sure enough a crack from that spot to the top of the pond. I got some foam expansion stuff for ponds. It's black, and hardly shows it'll set u under water, so I just squirted it from the water line up. Problem solved. 

Then there's the racoons. They go into the water for the goldfish, take a few and destroy the plants. An ultrasonic gadget and no more food got them away. Problem solved. 

Last summer, the water level dropped without a leak or a critter. Some of my surround plants had their tendrils in the water. Cut it all back, water loss ended. Problem solved. 

I'm just waiting for the next time...


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes,I am still alive.

Currently working in Kayenta Arizona for the next 10 weeks.

I am still having pond problems. When I get home iwill tear things apart and start over again.

John


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

I didn't see it as a suggestion, but you might want to build a by pass to test the pump/stream bed for leaks. I have a long stream bed and loose about 500 gallons every four to five days during the summer/fall (some to evaporation, some to capillary action along the edges of the stream bed, some to plants that suck up water, water lilies, reeds, etc., but I have never really tried to stop any of the "known" leaks....probably accounts for 250 gallons of the loss....waters the plants anyway. My pond holds about 2250 gallons, so the thing doesn't ever really run "dry"...even after a week or so....Pump is higher than the bottom of the pond. 

I would build a ABS pipe bi-pass from the upper to the lower pond (use at least 2" so that you don't end up with suction pulling the water out of the upper pond)...you want it all to be gravity flow. Then I would disconnect the lower pond pump and run it with a separate hose or pipe and just test that you aren't getting any problems from moving the water from point A to point B. Now you know that the problem is either in the underground feed line or the stream bed. [You may have already done this...so skip this step]. 

Then I would connect the pump back to my under ground feed line. Take the discharge and route it directly to the bi-pass ABS piping. If the water levels remain about the same....then you know your problem is in the stream bed that you constructed. 

Unfortunately, you probably have already figured this out and the hard part is that you are probably going to have to rebuild it. I have rebuilt portions of two different stream beds at least four times over the past eleven years. Some because of design changes and some because they didn't hold water properly. One thing I have perfected for the project (I'm in Flagstaff, Arizona....7000 feet and real four season climate) is to make sure that the channel is deep enough. I like the sides of the 7 mil pond liner to rise at least 7-8" vertically. I also use a sand base under the liner and then coat the inside with 2" of portland cement and sand mix (7 to 1 proportions). This is the same way they make roman bath tub bottoms. After that dries (2 days), I use regular mortar mix (buy it at Home Depot or Lowes) and mix in old white latex paint (or any color you like)....it helps with water proofing. I lay a layer about 3/4" thick and embed river stones or native malapis rock into the wet base. Gives it a natural look. It dries well enough to add water in about 3 days. Depending upon your skills at making this look like it is naturally occurring, you should have a great stream bed. I use a 1-1/2" ABS feed line from the pump to the top of the stream bed...it is buried in sand adjacent to the stream so it is easier to check for leaks. 

Good luck.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

2. leak in the stream area. 
3. leak between pump outlet and where it connects to the upper pond 

I have a simple idea that should tell you which one of those it is.. 

Take the upper outlet of the pump (probably a tube of some kind going into the upper pond?) 
place that outlet into a PVC pipe or other pipe/hose material, and run it straight back to the lower pond, above ground, taking the stream between the ponds out of the loop. 

If the water level still drops quickly, the problem area is: "3. leak between pump outlet and where it connects to the upper pond." 

If the water level does not drop, and things seem "normal" again, then the problem area is: "2. leak in the stream area." 

Scot


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 18 Feb 2013 08:47 PM 
Yes,I am still alive. Currently working in Kayenta Arizona for the next 10 weeks. I am still having pond problems. When I get home iwill tear things apart and start over again. John 

John, Not sure if you still have a problem or tore it up yet. So replumb the pump to the top with 2" pvc and glued joints above ground as a temporary trial. If it stops leaking the underground pipe failed somewhere and you can then replace it. What did you use for piping? I always use the 2" hose designed to be buried from the pond store. Its about 1.50/ft usually. If it still leaks that most likely its the stream.


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## Jonnychuffchuff (Dec 24, 2010)

Sorry, folks, I know that this is tantamount to blasphemy, but here goes anyway... 

I've never been convinced that a pond is worth the trouble. 

I have low spots and creekbeds. I just tossed a bunch of round pebbles in there to pretend there's water, or create a need for a bridge, or whatever. 

There are several good reasons for this. 
1. I had a pond once. 'Nuff said. 
2. I have rearranged my track enough to know that any pond I build will most likely be in the wrong place one day, then I'd have to do it over again. 
3. I love doing a thing once; I hate doing it twice. 
4. Ponds require maintenance. 
5. I feel I have better ways to spend my time. 
6. When the trains are running I could care less about the scenery. 
7. I'm lazy. 

Well, it is an alternative point of view.... ;-) 

An old plumber's trick to find or seal a leak: drop a few flax seeds into the water. They will drift, point first, and poke right into the leak where they will stick, swell and seal it up. 

Cheers!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There's ways to make them relatively low maintenance... just like railroads... normally takes a slightly higher infusion of cash up front. 

I've found a fantastic pond sealant, but it's $60 a gallon and it takes a lot. My 2 fountains have been in for 10 years and do not leak. 

Greg


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

After disassembling my stream I found that there is no leak there. Water runs just fine so I will start replacing rocks.

That left the waterfall. I took it apart and added additional liner in some areas and replaced the rocks. I filled the gaps between the rocks with garden soil and transplanted some creeping jenny plants hoping that they will soon take over the mountain that forms the base for the waterfall. I started the water and after an hour of closely watching the proceedings I came to the conclusion that my water loss is from splashing. The water comes over the waterfall and hits some rocks which causes it to split into several streams. When that happens, water splashes on the side of the waterfall. Not much, but enough that I loose about 2 inches of water every 16-24 hours.

Tomorrow I will again try to address the problem by adding some additional rocks where the water is splashing out of the pond. I also bought a can of sealant which expands when applied. I will use that to seal around the outlet pipe for the water fall and use it to seal around some of the rocks where most of the splashing occurs.

I am hoping that will solve the problem.

I currently have two large frogs in the upper pond (Brown) and a large green frog in the bottom pond. Where they come from I do not know. It seems like they appear this time of the year for the past three years. They croak at night and then about mid June they go off someplace because after that I never see them again. I do not know if it is the same frogs each year but they are about the size of my closed fist and are not really spooked by my presence. One watched me as I tore the waterfall apart and did not once jump into the water. 

Our cat creeps around the pond several times a day but has not managed to catch them yet.

Our dog has been doing a great job catching shrews or voles (I cannot tell the difference - they are very small and have pointed snouts). She usually shares them with the cat.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

wow, it's been 2-1/2 years since you started this thread... I sure wish you luck on finding the leak... I've lost water from my fountains when water splashed out from the "fountain heads"... did not realize how quickly water can be lost... also, heat and humidity caused me to think I had a leak when it was just more evaporation due to the "climate". 

Regards, Greg


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I should be embarassed that I have been dealing with this problem for so long. Sometimes I wish I had never heard of this hobby. I just feel totally inadequate most of the time therefore I just let things slide.

Regarding this leak problem, last summer I hired a guy and paid him 1000 dollars to fix the leak. He worked on it for a couple of days and declared the problem fixed. It did work for several weeks but then I began loosing large amounts of water every day. I then had another guy work on it but only paid him 750 dollars with the same results.

After that, i just turned the water off and left it. 

Now, I am giving it another try but this time I am not spending any money on it. I really like the sound of the running water. I have never been able to find anyone in our area who would be willing to come over and give me some help. In the past, I have even offered to put someone up in a motel for a couple of days and cover the cost of any repairs needed to get my switches and track in running order. The offer is still available to anyone willing to spend some time here on the Olympic Penninsula of Western Washington.

I am negotiating with my neighbor who is a contractor about helping me install concrete roadbed on the upper circle of track to see if it will improve operations. Of course, he is not willing to do it for free so there goes some more money into the money pit that I call a railroad. I would just like to get reliable operation sometime before I die.


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