# Will the Big Boy steam again?



## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Railfan and preservation forums have been packed with discussion of UP considering restoring a Big Boy to operation. #4014 currently on display on Pomona is the most talked about candidate. This is actually beyond rumor stage as UP spokesman have talked about it.

Link to Trains News Wire.

http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad N...to restore Big Boy for excursion service.aspx


Lots of discussion about the challenges of restoration....changing it to oil fired. Who will do the restoration? The cost is HUGE. Then there are operation concerns. How many places on UP can handle a Big Boy let alone turn it. The Challenger is challenging enough. Also lots of discussion about current UP steam program management and capabilities. 

I never thought it would get this far. Lets all hope it can be worked out.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

*Would be awesome, but I would not hold my breath on it happening.*


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow, that would be sweet! But I agree, don't hold your breath.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

There was a big deal about 10 years ago on getting one in Texas going, never did work out..


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I would love to see it happen, but I will believe it when I see one fly over my house.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

There has been quite a bit of discussion on the Narrow Gauge Discussion forum about restoring #4014. She seems to be the one in the best condition as a foundation for a great restoration. Warm and dry weather conditions in Pomona, California. Union Pacific seems to like the idea of running #4014 for the 150th Anniversary of the Golden Spike in 2019.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I heard they keep her lubed and roll her back and forth every so often. 

Greg


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Dec 2012 09:06 PM 
I heard they keep her lubed and roll her back and forth every so often. 

Greg 
Really? How do they move her back and forth?

I was there during the PCGRS and the DDA40X looked like it hadn't moved in years. It was sinking into the ground under the trucks. The Big Boy was further away and the gates were closed that weekend so I couldn't get a good enough look to see if it appears to have moved any.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The told me that they would roll her back and forth a few feet, just to keep things from rusting in place and the cylinders from freezing up. 

Just a few feet in either direction, to get full cylinder travel. 

This is second hand info, I seem to remember from one of the people in the G scale club that runs the layout, but my recollection may be faulty. 

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Is this one of the steam engines at the FairPlex? 

JJ


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"The told me that they would roll her back and forth a few feet, just to keep things from rusting in place and the cylinders from freezing up. " 

Greg is correct. The Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke, Va does just that for N&W locomotives 611 and 1218. It can be done with a mechanical winch and a stout cable attached to the coupler. I believe they anchor the winch to a rail. Anyway, I gather that it is not a big deal to accomplish. 

Yours, 
David Meashey 
P. S. Forgot to mention, this is really important for locomotives with roller bearing drive wheels and/or drive rods. It keeps the rollers from getting flat spots due to compression.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 10 Dec 2012 02:03 AM 
Is this one of the steam engines at the FairPlex? 

JJ Yes JJ, #4014 IS the Big Boy at Fairplex.


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

This would be cool to see, but I think it it would be very limited in where they could run it. I remember when I was riding in 844 and talking to Ed, the manager of the steam dept and engineer. He was telling me about how he plans the routes and there are very real clearance problems all over the place, even for the 844. There are also limitations on access for fuel and water delivery as well as display. Today's railroad isn't built with steam engines in mind, so there are a lot of complex problems to solve. But yes, it would be an amazing sight to see one of those rolling down the rails...


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

there are very real clearance problems all over the place 
Too true. The NYMR (UK preserved RR) rebuilt an express passenger loco which was destined for main line excursion work, but by the time they had finished, the Network Rail guys had re-ballasted the only route to the main line and one of the bridges had clearance issues. (They ended up lowering the track a few inches.) 

Then there was the "King" class steam engine on an excursion into Paddington that lost its whistles on the bridge at the station entrance. 

Tricky stuff, running live steam!


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## Chris_Haon (Dec 28, 2011)

As far as size and weight, the Big Boy is one of the bigger steam locomotives to be built but in comparison to the modern day diesels, it is in the same league weight-wise. The Big Boy weighs in at about 50 tons more than the current mainline diesels. The axle loading on of a Big Boy is 67,000 lbs. That is less than the axle loading on an AC6000CW which is 69,000 lbs. For comparison, the 844 has a driver loading of 66,500 lbs. 

Today’s mainline rail is 130 lbs or more, whereas when the Big Boy ran the mainline in the 1940’s and 1950’s the mainline rail was 110 to 120 lbs. The only track issue is the track profile for curves which seemingly has not been a problem with any of the big 4-8-4 or 2-8-4 locomotives running currently which have longer rigid wheel bases than that of the Big Boy. The Big Boy rigid wheel base is only 18 feet 3 inches. The ATSF 3751 ha a rigid wheel base of 21 feet 4inches. A Big Boy can negotiate a curve as tight as 20 degrees due to the from set of drivers being hinged and the nature of the lateral motion allowed for on the locomotive.

The idea that has been expressed that there are no shops big enough to work on or service a Big Boy is the most hilarious due to the fact the Union Pacific has such a shop in Cheyenne, Wyoming where the 3985 and 844 both are headquartered. Even TVRM has a wheel lathe that can handle the 68 inch drivers of a Big Boy. 844 has 80 inch diameter drivers.

Just because the locomotive is big doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t be restored to service and run on the mainline. No natural obstacles stand in the way of that happening. The biggest obstacle is not track, coal, maintenance or weight of the locomotive. It is the negativity and closed-mindedness of people that becomes almost impossible to overcome. One thing is for sure, if Union Pacific wants to acquire a Big Boy and then restore it and run it, no one, no matter how much they think it won’t happen can stop it from happening. Where there is a will, there will be a way. If he were still alive today, you could just ask Paul Merriman about overcoming all the obstacles, both natural and human to bring 4501 back to steam in the 1960’s.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice factual presentation Chris! 

Good to see that there's fewer technical hurdles than one was lead to believe (weight, curvature restrictions, axle loading, driver size) 

I'd love to see this come to fruition... 

Greg


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya. I agree with the modern specs here. Life has improved for and by the railroads in America.. 

A Big Boy should have it easier than when they all roamed the country together !! Even here several curves have been re-located - to - a larger size to make it consistent with most of the other curves. A Big Boy will do better in a modern world, 40 years have past!! 

I'm waiting - and wann'a see it run again!! I'll even go & paint it!! !!!! Let's see - DMS Ry. logo - on the tender - sounds pretty nice!! now fer a number on the cab!!??


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

I know - #1


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

This was my post on the Trains.com website: 

Where would they get the boiler rebuilt to the latest Federal regulations? 

It would likely require a full complete replacement to meet those new standards. Thats no easy feat and has been the deathnail of many steam restoration programs. I remember many years ago somewhere a quote that $5 million dollars would be required to get a Big Boy operational, I thought that was ridiculously low, I figure between $15-20M would be a more reasonable expectation. 

BTW for comparisons, the British Peppercorn A-1 Tornado cost $5M to build from scratch, and that was a much smaller Pacific, a Big Boy is a whole different league of locomotive. 

One other question, where would they turn it around? a custom wye would need to be built somewhere as there are no longer any turntables big enough ( or simply left) that could accomplish that. So as much as this idea has appeal, it has some very real challenges to overcome before it happens.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Funny that a 'Wye' should come up in here!!! 

Just in My relatively general railroad neighborhood,.. right off I know of 2 Wyes that can be used...in Southern AZ... 

1 - the Phoenix cut-off - Near I-10, leads North to Phoenix ( but no turning in Phoenix itself ) 
2 - and the coal fired power plant in Cochise - also has one that feeds a tear drop loop for coal unit trains to just pull thru and leave...


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Where would they get the boiler rebuilt to the latest Federal regulations? It would likely require a full complete replacement to meet those new standards 
I doubt it. There have been quite a few loco rebuilds over the past few years, and none required a new boiler. EBT #15 got a new tube job, etc., and it is from the 1920s - quite a few years older than a Big Boy. 

a custom wye would need to be built somewhere 
I think you are underestimating how many wyes exist. All those 'unit train' locos need to be turned, as do the passenger specials that UP runs. There are lots and lots of locations with what amounts to a wye - anywhere that three railroad tracks converge on a town usually results in a wye.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

You guys need to start thinking "outside the box" here. If we can move a space shuttle through the streets of Los Angeles, we can move a Big Boy. Very large machinery is moved around L. A. all the time! Shultz Steel in Paramount, CA., moved a huge, hydraulic forging pressI about five years ago. It weighed in excess of 350 to 400 tons! 

I believe the operating weight of a BB was around a million pounds......including coal and water AND the tender. This locomotive would be empty and minus the weight of the tender. Moving the BB by using the same type of mover as the shuttle, would be a "popcorn job"!" We don't need no stinking wye." OR TRACK!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 11 Dec 2012 09:23 AM 
Where would they get the boiler rebuilt to the latest Federal regulations? It would likely require a full complete replacement to meet those new standards 
I doubt it. There have been quite a few loco rebuilds over the past few years, and none required a new boiler. EBT


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The fact that the Big Boy can use a wye of greater curvature than some smaller locos means the wye curvature is not an issue. 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

They moved a Big Boy thru the streets of Omaha a few years ago. It sits looking over the Missouri River. 

If the UP wants to run one they will.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

There seems to be a misconception of the abilities and size of a Big Boy. The axle loading is less than a GEVO, and the minimum curve that a Big Boy can negotiate is 20 degrees. A GEVO requires a 21 degree curve. These things were used in regular mainline service, they weren't outrageous by any means. And there were other locomotives that were bigger, heaver, and more powerful. But not nearly as successful. And part of that success was because of their design. 

Check out the track they used to move the Big Boy from the old Forney Museum to the new one. Yes, she is running on panel track, pulled by a trackmobile... 

http://www.barthworks.com/cars/forneytrains/2001movingbigboy.htm 

BTW, 3985 fits completely within the Steam Shops in Cheyenne, as does 844 - with tender. 3985's tender is sitting outside. Hopefully they'll devote some time to getting 3985 repaired, and hopefully the damage isn't fatal...

UP 838 and 5511 are in the auxiliary shop next door, along with the Centennial. They also have a couple of passenger cars in there being worked on. The array of equipment and tools in the UP Steam Shop is mind boggling. I'll bet they could build a steam locomotive from scratch in there...

Robert


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, be that as it may, while I would like to see it happen I will believe it only when I see them moving it to Cheyanne. BTW they had better hurry up before the Metrorail builds the Gold Line extension thru Pomona, that could complicate any attempt to build a temporary spur from the existing BNSF line across the parking lot to where the BB is displayed. That would be the least complicated manner of moving the BB.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

What is wrong with lifting it with a sky hook ???? 

Trailer and trucks move our largest locos on a regular basis, think of when they moved the DDA40X thru the streets to it's new home back in Neb...!! It was parked next to a BIG BOY also!! 

What is this stuck in the mud attitude - think positive !!!!!! Think CAN DO!!!!!! 

D


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Chris_Haon on 10 Dec 2012 03:13 PM 
.... The only track issue is the track profile for curves which seemingly has not been a problem with any of the big 4-8-4 or 2-8-4 locomotives running currently which have longer rigid wheel bases than that of the Big Boy. The Big Boy rigid wheel base is only 18 feet 3 inches. The ATSF 3751 ha a rigid wheel base of 21 feet 4inches. A Big Boy can negotiate a curve as tight as 20 degrees due to the from set of drivers being hinged and the nature of the lateral motion allowed for on the locomotive. .... the rigid wheel base on Berkshire (2-8-4) locomotive is much different than locomotives with a 4-wheel pilot trucks. a two wheel pilot truck pivots like trailing trucks and has no effect on the overall rigid wheel base, whereas a 4-wheel pilot truck pivots at its center effectively increasing the rigid wheelbase from the center of the rear driver to the center (pivot) of the pilot truck (though you are correct that there is some lateral motion allowed that is usually built into the pilot truck and at times in the front driver set). 4-8-4's will always require a wider degree of curvature than a 2-8-4 with similar size drivers. no argument with the BB being able to take a 20° curve, but its driver wheelbase is 18' 9", not its rigid wheelbase.


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd sure like to see one run! But it's the same old question..where are you going to run it? Anybody remember when #3985 sideswiped a coal train while in a curve pulling the Christmas Train back in the early 90's? Tore up the L.H. front running board pretty good...#3985 never went east of Chicago again. So where you gonna run a 4000 that is wider and longer than a 3900? Heck on a double track mainline with 13' track centers it'll hit a 50' boxcar that's 12' 6" wide on a 9 deg. curve...A 90' autorack probably puts the foul mark at 4 deg....And you want to turn it on a 20 deg. wye??..Hope there's no buildings or poles nearby! 

Back a few when 4023 was in limbo at Omaha the steam crew wanted to take it back to Cheyenne and restore it. They wanted to use it in excursion service between Ogden, Utah & Cheyenne, Wyoming at a cost of $2,000.00 per ticket with a layover at Green River, Wyoming as it would be a 2 day trip. The higher ups at U.P. said no.


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## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 12 Dec 2012 08:42 AM 
What is wrong with lifting it with a sky hook ???? 

Trailer and trucks move our largest locos on a regular basis, think of when they moved the DDA40X thru the streets to it's new home back in Neb...!! It was parked next to a BIG BOY also!! 

What is this stuck in the mud attitude - think positive !!!!!! Think CAN DO!!!!!! 

D 
First off, I don't see it as negativism, just people pointing out some facts that may affect or limit the operational possibilities of the Big Boy. And these facts certainly don't mean it can't be done, just that it's not such a simple matter as some may think. 

Secondly, I don't think any of us here have a say in whether or not the Big Boy gets put into operation, so "attitudes" (positive or negative) aren't going to matter one iota.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

that it's not such a simple matter as some may think 
I doubt anyone here thinks it is simple to rebuild a steam engine.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think people were just piling on observations about everything being difficult, where it's not as bad as people think, i.e. minimum radius and axle loading. 

Sure there are challenges, but from the information given in this thread, certainly not insurmountable. 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

My biggest uncertainty is the condition of the boiler. If xray inspection reveals excessive corrosion or fatigue, forget it, us 
Its new boiler time, the Feds dont screw around with that because a boiler failure would ruin everyones weekend. 

Theres a very serious reason they require such stringent inspections on existing steam, and a couple were mothballed after failure of the boiler inspection and the extreme replacement cost of a new boiler killed the users steam program. 

NW 611 was a victim of this, if I am incorrect please let me know.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"NW 611 was a victim of this, if I am incorrect please let me know."

Victor;

I was told at a Roanoke Chapter, NRHS, meeting (and this was from the then-retiring head of the NS steam program) that 611 had run out her Federal flue time. Her boiler is still sound. Federal regulations for flue service are hours of service or calendar time, whichever comes first. 611 timed out by the calendar. Strictly speaking, in terms of service time, her flues were still good. I'm sure the folks in the steam program did everything they could to preserve the boilers on both 611 and 1218 once the locomotives were "mothballed." Presently they are even under roof while on display to protect them from the weather.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a schedule for moving them slightly on a regular basis to prevent bearings, etc. from seizing. (We still have hope.)

Yours,
David Meashey

P.S. You just might be a ******* if you think a flu shot is firing a 20 gauge up your chimney to blow the soot out!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Dave, I knew 611 was sidelined by Fed regulations. I thought it was the boiler.

BTW dont ask me about a Alabama vasectomy :-O


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

"BTW dont ask me about a Alabama vasectomy :-O" 

Light a cherry bomb and count to ten? 

(There has to be a better way!) 

Hope there is still hope for the Big Boy. 

Have fun, 
David Meashey


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## pfdx (Jan 2, 2008)

611 was sidelined by a change in management. Just like a change in management has lead to the new NS steam program. The pendulum swings both ways. 

The rats behind the wall are talking like the 3985 is the locomotive that needs a new boiler which is why the Big Boy is now a topic of conversations. 

Nobody that knows is saying anything in public.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

3985 is undergoing her 1472 inspection, as of April, and is expected to be out of service for 24 months or more. 

Robert


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, that is sad. I hope 3985 comes back better than new. And since there is no reason to think it wont, I (for one) will continue to think it will happen.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

As I said if the UP wants to do it they will. Looks like it is on the way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And it is the Pomona one, as someone guessed back in December, good call !


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

4014 has been "parked" in Pomona since my first year in college!


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