# 4-8-4 1/24th or 1/29th



## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

I'd like to find a 4-8-4 loco for my G scale garden railway. I want one because growing up with O scale Lionel, a 4-8-4 was my ultimate loco. I loved the way it looked, it was bigger than my 2-6-2 starter set loco, and I just assumed at the time (hey, I was a dumb kid) that it was the largest loco around. I haven't been able to find much in G scale though. Not many choices either on eBay or any of the usual website stores I frequent. I just want plain old black. If you have a few in your collection, or have seen some in another collection or anywhere else, could you could do a comparison on them for me and also furnish make and model numbers so I can start looking? I'd prefer 1/24th or 1/29th. Anything else is either too big or too small. Also, I'm not a rich man, so the stuff that costs more than my pick-up truck did when it was new will be out of the question. THANKS, FESTUS


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus,

You need the open the wallet big time for a 4-8-4 in 1/29. As far as I know, the only ones made are custom built and therefore, expensive. I believe Greg E. bought one a couple of years that was custom-made. I have forgotten the name of the person who made it. Maybe Greg will see this post and respond. I also believe that Jerry Barnes did a scratch-build of one a few years ago.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Rex Ammerman makes some real nice ones, not sure he still does it or not. You do need two Pacifics for the parts, so you can see where the price is headed. I used two of the older type Pacifics to make my 844. I got some Boxpox wheel castings I turned down for it, which created some extra problems. I use the centiped tender I made for my Challenger(again two Pacifics).
















The ears are a pain, have to be careful with them!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

There has been a rumor in the pipeline, for years, that Aristocraft is going to come out with a 4-8-4..
The word was that it was going to be based on ATSF 3751, and 1/29 scale:










I havent been on the Aristo forum in years, so I dont know if this project is still in progress..
anyone know?

Scot


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

There has been no talk of a Northern on the aristo forum for many years. I think we can assume it's dead, at least for the near term. I don;t think Aristo will be doing anything at all new for quite a while, The last new loco announced was a diesel switcher


Accucraft made a 4-8-4 in 1:32, but if "the WOW factor" is what you are after the 4-8-4 in 1:32 will seem too small. MTH also made a 4-8-4 in 1:32, a very nicely detailed loco. but it will probably also seem too small. The difference between 1:32 and 1:29 is pretty significant, to my eyes. 


The only option in 1:29 is to make it yourself or buy it from Rex Ammerman. If you go to the aristo kitbashing forum and do a search for "northern" you can find quite a few examples. The wheels are a problem--most Northerns had Boxpok wheels. Paul Rose made a fantastic northern out of two aristo three-wheel diesel motor blocks and wheels from a USAT hudson--so a search for "boxpok" (note spelling)


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

I have seen REX's work. The 4-8-4 is beautiful. What I would really like to see is a 4-6-0 since most railroaders do not have the space to handle big locomotives and long consists. I would really like to see a 4-6-0 in 1/29.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 01 Aug 2012 06:46 AM The wheels are a problem--most Northerns had Boxpok wheels. Paul Rose made a fantastic northern out of two aristo three-wheel diesel motor blocks and wheels from a USAT hudson--so a search for "boxpok" (note spelling) 



I wouldnt say "most" had Boxpok wheels..only "some" had Boxpok wheels, probably less than half actually..
there are many examples of 4-8-4's without Boxpok drivers:



















And the very first "Northern", that gave the gave "Northern" to the type, Northern Pacific Railroad number 2600 and her sisters, of 1926,
didnt have Boxpok drivers either! 










I believe the Boxpok drivers were a rather "late" innovation, being used mostly in the late 1930's and into the 1940's..
the very last Northern's built would have certainty used them..(and some were later retrofitted with them)
but many Northerns were built in the 1920's and 30's with "traditional" drivers..

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, mine is by Rex.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Bob Pero on 01 Aug 2012 06:58 AM 
I have seen REX's work. The 4-8-4 is beautiful. What I would really like to see is a 4-6-0 since most railroaders do not have the space to handle big locomotives and long consists. I would really like to see a 4-6-0 in 1/29. 
See my thread on converting a Bachmann "Annie" into a 1:29 4-6-0

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/8/aft/124518/afv/topic/afpg/3/Default.aspx

I made a "builder's log" of the process

http://www.mylargescale.com/Feature...EntryId/91/Making-a-Standard-Gauge-Annie.aspx


It's actually not that hard. Th hardest part is making a new cab

Alternatively, you could make a very nice PRR G5 4-6-0 out of an aristo Pacific and a Lionel Atlantic.

The argument about big vs small locos tends to get heated. On my layout, I've ended up downsizing everything--Mikados to Consolidations, Pacific to Atlantic. The smaller locos look better. But if I had more space, and wider curves, I'd love to have a Northern. Lewis Polk, before he retired, had come to the conclusion that smaller locos sell better, because most people have smaller layouts. I have no idea at all if this is true, or if Scott Polk agrees with this.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Many times, Lewis Polk told me that the Mikado and Mallet sales were disappointing, and he believed that the smaller (really meaning shorter wheelbase) locos were better sellers in the future. 

He felt that people needed to run on tighter curves than 8' diameter and that was limiting his sales. 

Of course I disagreed with him and stated my belief that 8' diameter was not significantly limiting his sales, and all newbies were advised to go to 10' diameter. 

I also went further to tell him that his sales problem was because of the slipping wheel issue which plagued the mikado and mallet, especially before the "red loctite glue" era (which still did not completely eliminate the problem). 

I don't know Scott's take on all of this, but the last loco released had the "long wheelbase" Mikado motor block. 

Greg


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

*I might as well get into this foray with my rendition of one of the WM's big freight Northerns...*
*Made from an Aristo mallet, 2, 3 axle Aristo diesel blocs cut and put together in a 4 axle, 4 *
*motor configuration, utilizing USA big-boy 69 in box-pok drivers as that was the size used on *
*the WM **proto-type... Due to the lengthy w/base of these things, they don't like 8 ft dia track *
*at all... **In fact these SS drivers R pretty hard on 10 dia brass curves too, the attack angle is *
*too great** for this small a dia track, but it will run satisfactorily on 10 ft dia track though... *
*It runs, and looks a whole lot better on 16 ft dia track... **The WM's Northerns were built by *
*BLW in 1947, and scrapped in 1954, every d--ned one **of them at only 7 yrs old !!!!!*
*Paul R... 

















*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the one I was thinking of--fantastic work.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Very nice Paul!


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

WoW!! Very nice work.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Great job Paul, I am humbled by your skill!


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 01 Aug 2012 06:46 AM

Accucraft made a 4-8-4 in 1:32, but if "the WOW factor" is what you are after the 4-8-4 in 1:32 will seem too small. MTH also made a 4-8-4 in 1:32, a very nicely detailed loco. but it will probably also seem too small. The difference between 1:32 and 1:29 is pretty significant, to my eyes. 


i run my 1:32 scale Berkshire or GN S2 for the local train museum's summer program for kids, and i am glad to report that even with my puny (SCALE) locomotives, the "WOW factor" still exists. there is no doubt in my eyes, either, when i am looking at a 1:29 scale locomotive. it does look oversized, but in a visually awkward way. i'll admit that i run 1:48 scale locomotives on 1:25" gauge track and i'm even working on getting a 1:8 scale live steamer that is being built for 7½" gauge, but both are OVER-gauged by about 6%. by this i mean the gauge of the locomotive is 6% wider than it should be. somewhat noticeable, but frankly with a slightly more stable width/ look.

1:29 scale locomotives (#2 scale) built to run on #1 gauge track are a bit over 9% UNDER-gauged. that is the gauge of those locomotives is 9%+ narrower than it should be. as is noted by observers, they are considerably larger than you would think that 1:32 to 1:29 difference in fractions would indicate, but that oversize makes them look very precarious sitting on what looks to be narrow gauge track. you very rarely see a head on picture of a 1:29 scale locomotive. they look as though a stiff breeze would blow them over.

the scale/ gauge error in 1:32 scale on #1 gauge track is -0.340%.

just an observation.
cheers...gary


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to agree--1:29, IMHO, was a big mistake, but the market suggests that my opinion is wrong, in that 1:29 is very popular. The choices in 1:32 are limited and expensive.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

*







*



That model brings tears to my eyes. I'm currently attempting the WM in N scale, late 40's to early 50's. Bachmann makes a good looking, great running 2-8-0 Spectrum in N but other good running steamers, other than Challengers are not really available and not in WM. There is a Northern model w/oil tenders, but not in WM and I don't know if it runs well. What I wouldn't give to have that beast in N scale.That's a stunning model.

scott


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2010)

All of the 4-8-4 locos in this post bring tears to my eyes. I gotta have one now more than ever. Hey W3NZL: How much to make one for me? Will $50 cover it? That is a work of art. I sat outside and watched my USA cow/calf switchers haul 12 pieces of rolling stock around the past two day but they only have 4 & 5' curves to navigate and it made me realize I really need to lay down my mainline, which will be nothing but 15' curves so I can run all my large locos, like my 2-8-8-2 Mallet made by Aristo-Craft and my pair of Lionel GP-20s, SD-45s etc. All run well on 15' curves (I hope). My top loop is 4' curves and made for the small 0-4-0, 0-6-0 LGB/Lionel type locos and switchers only, pulling the set size stock. And I did that so people can compare the big stuff with the set size stuff. 

I can't believe no one makes a 4-8-4 at all. If Aristo-Craft can build a 2-8-8-2 Mallet and sell them for $450, and that includes two free pieces of rolling stock, then they darn well can make a 4-8-4 for a little bit less. Maybe if we all sent them 10 e-mails every day with the phrase: "A million members of our club voted and demand run.ing that you make a run of 4-8-4 locos and we all promise to buy one or two at least." they'd change their minds; if they have any. 

The closest I have in O scale in an MTH 2-10-0 but it's just not the same. Perhaps it's because we had a 4-8-4 parked on display in a park downtown here and I even met the engineer and sat and listened to him talk about bring it down to the park and how cold the cab always was. He had a first class collection of O scale Lionel trains and a layout that filled his basement and required 15 operators to make the whole thing run.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Festus, 
U can have one of the wheels for $50, hehe, Harry Hartman has first crack at it should I decide to sell it... I do have an extra 
set of those drivers which I'd be willing to part with though, be a starting place for U... I don't see the big players in 1/29 doing 
things like that as long as they have their "must play on 8 ft dia track" rule of thumb in force... While the pictured loco will get
around 8 ft track, it doesn't like doing it... If anybody is interested, I did a 4-5 part write up with pics on the build of that thing 
about 4 years ago that were posted over on the Aristo kitbash forum, think it was called "my latest project", or something
similar, use the advanced search mode and put my name in it, Paul Rose, an it should turn up along with a lot of other junk 
I've thrown together over the years...
Paul R...


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By Festus on 05 Aug 2012 12:56 AM 

... I can't believe no one makes a 4-8-4 at all....

i believe the Aster Great Northern S2 (4-8-4) is still available in Glacier Park livery.

an Aster kit, though it will also save you a chunk of change, is also a great learning experience.
i look forward to building one rather than consider it a chore.

cheers...gary


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aster will be in 1:32 though


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 05 Aug 2012 11:24 AM 
The Aster will be in 1:32 though of course... but by the statement that "nobody" was making a 4-8-4, i didn't know if he was aware that the Aster model was still available, though only in the Glacier Park. i probably should have thought that there is still the Accucraft GS-5, RTR, also currently available.

it's funny (in a sad way), that when you Google 'garden railways', you get the standard assortment of online distributers who, let's face it, are out to make money and show no qualms about advertising 1/29 "scale" without even an asterisk to indicate that the wrong scale trucks are on those 1/29 scale bodies. but garden railroaders who are used to LGB and the larger narrow gauge 1:20.3 scale pieces understandably think bigger is better without giving any thought to doing the math. USA trains was probably among the largest manufacturer to take advantage of those uneducated buyers essentially flooding the market with these oversized models to the point that even places like Micro-Mark advertise:
G (No. 1) Gauge, 1:29 Scale Locomotive Rollers (Pkg. of 4)
what the &*$% are 1:29 scale, G, No 1 gauge rollers?
no wonder people get the idea that 1:32 is the scale that is in error.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aopagary on 05 Aug 2012 02:07 PM 


it's funny (in a sad way), that when you Google 'garden railways', you get the standard assortment of online distributers who, let's face it, are out to make money and show no qualms about advertising 1/29 "scale" without even an asterisk to indicate that the wrong scale trucks are on those 1/29 scale bodies. but garden railroaders who are used to LGB and the larger narrow gauge 1:20.3 scale pieces understandably think bigger is better without giving any thought to doing the math. USA trains was probably among the largest manufacturer to take advantage of those uneducated buyers essentially flooding the market with these oversized models to the point that even places like Micro-Mark advertise:
G (No. 1) Gauge, 1:29 Scale Locomotive Rollers (Pkg. of 4)
what the &*$% are 1:29 scale, G, No 1 gauge rollers?
no wonder people get the idea that 1:32 is the scale that is in error.



You act like the online distributors are out to deliberately mislead people..this is not true, and never has been true..
there is no need to require asterisk's to designate that 1/29 is the wrong scale/gauge combination..If we required an asterisk for everything that was slightly out of scale, 80% of Large scale models would require an asterisk..everything LGB has ever made, all 1/29 scale, nearly all 1/24 scale, quite a bit of 1/22.5 scale..There is no need for any asterisk's in this hobby, we just need to figure it out for ourselves..its not hard once you sort it out..

I do agree that rollers cant be 1/29 scale! thats a bit bizarre..and they actually limit their potential sales by saying 1/29 scale specifically..but again, the vast majority of hobbiests understand that they arent really 1/29 scale rollers, and understand exactly what the rollers are..

And I dont think anyone thinks 1/32 scale is "the one in error"..I have never heard anyone suggest that before. That is almost certainty not true.
sure, maybe newbies to the hobby might not understand that 1/29 scale is the wrong scale/gauge combination, but in that case, if they are completely unaware that 1/29 scale is "wrong" they also wouldn't have any idea than 1/32 is "correct"...When they do learn that 1/29 scale is "wrong", that is when they also learn that 1/32 is correct..
with education, they learn what it all means..
some might never learn, in which case they remain blissfully ignorant and just enjoy their trains..many do understand what 1/29 is all about, and they simply don't care that its "wrong"..
(im in that camp)

I have never heard of anyone buying 1/29 scale trains, then later finding out about the "wrongness" and getting all angry and upset, selling their trains in disgust and switching to 1/32 scale because they simply cant abide the horrible awfulness of 1/29 scale!  that almost never happens..maybe once or twice, but if it has actually happened, its a VAST minority of the hobby..
the big "controversy" of 1/29 scale is greatly exaggerated..

Scot


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## aopagary (Jun 30, 2008)

i'm certainly not blaming any buyers, but i again blame the companies and distributors for reverting to toy train days when Marx and Unique Arts started a war over who could make the largest trains for O gauge track. manufacturers like USA Trains and Aristocraft are not supporting the hobby, they are in it for the profit. most other scales with significant gauge errors were established long before NCC manufacturing and were considered quite accurate for the day. those scales will likely remained grandfathered in, but for a modern company to purposely inflate their model size purely for cosmetic reasons cannot be explained by any other means than competition for market share. 
to put it in a different perspective, how to you think HO clubs would feel about the new larger 1:79 scale HO models (a similar error to what 1:29 presents).

1:32 scale, 3/8" to the foot on #1 gauge, 45mm track, has all the numbers going for it. it is unfortunate that these accurate models seem to look small to the garden RR crowd used to seeing 1:24 & 1:20.3 scale layouts. ironically if 1:29 scale cars were put on the correct #2 gauge (2") trucks, it would also be a fairly exact scale/gauge.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 05 Aug 2012 08:24 PM 
Posted By aopagary on 05 Aug 2012 02:07 PM 


I have never heard of anyone buying 1/29 scale trains, then later finding out about the "wrongness" and getting all angry and upset, selling their trains in disgust and switching to 1/32 scale because they simply cant abide the horrible awfulness of 1/29 scale!  that almost never happens..maybe once or twice, but if it has actually happened, its a VAST minority of the hobby..
the big "controversy" of 1/29 scale is greatly exaggerated..

Scot

Well you've never heard of it because that would be a childish and absurd response, and because the 1/32 and 1/29 worlds aren't remotely comparable. In 1:29 there are multiple manufacturers making relatively affordable stuff, from diesel and steam switchers to large expensive modern diesels. In 1:32 there's accucraft, making mostly live steam equipment and priced well north of $1000 per loco, and there's MTH, which runs on a proprietary, non-compatible control system. 

If there was an equivalent of Aristocraft or USAT making things in 1:32 I'd have switched years ago. But there isn't, so I run the 1:29 stuff and shrug when I notice that it often looks ridiculous. LArge scale trains are asmall market, and the dominant players committed to 1:29. IMHO, that was a mistake, but most people dont notice or care. If I had viable market choices, I'd take them.


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are a couple of Northerns


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*I** am doing my 17th one right now. Hope to be finished by Friday. If you want to see one running, look at my Youtube channel @ EngineYard*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Always loved that picture!


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*If you will notice, this is not the same picture as my preveous post. This was my rare chance to recreate that picture. I just finished my last three that I am going to build. The only engine that is the same in the picture is 3759. That is mine. It was number 2 in the build order. The next one on top is number 17, it is the last one and it is mine also, I am going to run both together at Marty's. The B&O, number 16 build, is going to Maryland tomorrow, I am delivering it part of the way to save him six hours. The last one is number 15 build and going to be a UP (**no decals yet and the tender is mine, just used it in the shot**)and is going to the west coast, but he is picking it up at Marty's.*


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Mr. SantaFe: 

Those locos are great. Why did not Lewis have that loco designed instead of the Mallet loco? For 8 foot diameter curves, possibly a blind rear driver would have made that possible. Protypically incorrect but a compromise to allow running on 8 foot diameter curves. 

The thing that really bugs me is: 

how is it that Kader, parent of Bachmann, manages to build the Bachmann axles and wheels such that there is no spinning of drivers on the Bachmann axles 

but yet: 

the Aristo Craft drivers spun on the axles? 

The same team of Kader designers must have been available for both Bachmann and Aristo Craft such that Lewis Polk could have been helped out on this matter. 

Those spining driver axles have done great harm to Aristo Craft. Possibly fatal. 

Of course the other major question is how is it that the MTH plastic cracked on the Challenger smokebox and at the driver axles? 
Again, molding plastic locos in the China factories was nothing new. This was not new technology. 
Done successfully for both Bachmann, USA TRAINS and Aristo Craft for years. None of those brands had cracking plastic drivers or smokeboxes. 
Why did MTH have this trouble? 

Maybe this was a Communist plot to rid largescale of 1:32 ? Well, at least their intentions were good. ( Just kidding folks ) 
Seriously though, I would have bought a MTH Hudson had there not been the cracking driver problem as the 1:32 MTH Hudson looks just fine with the Aristo heavyweights. 
The laboured chuff looked extremely realistic. 


Norman


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

In Rex's first photo I have #3763 that he made for me. It is still one of my best pullers and is on the main weekly with no problems. He also made for me his first 2-8-0 using a Mallet drive and a Lionel Atlantic body. This also is a great puller. On his web site its #761. Jack


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

It certainly would be nice to see one of these manufacturers make a 1/32nd scale diesel switcher, such as the SW1, with a plastic body for the same price range as the S-4 or RS-3 engines. They could even use the same motor blocks that they use on the 1/29th engines. I can't imagine that would be difficult for one of these manufacturers to do. Or how about a 44 ton center cab with a plastic body in 1/32 scale? Inexpensive, for G scale, and small, for the small radius track curves, and 1/32 scale for the people who want the proper scale gauge combo. Like the blue box Athearn of G scale.


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

* The 3759 is my oldest one I still own. It has over 250 hours on it, it has been run in seven states. It has pulled 129 hppers and regularly pulls 15 USA passenger cars.It has never spun a driver. It has fallen off a 3 ft. bridge, rolled down a 7 ft embankment and has never done anymore damage than detail parts. The bodies, frame and gearboxes are all just glued together, with never any damage. out of all 17 that I have built, I have only had a few monor problems. One big problem was created byFedEx when they droppedone off a conveyor belt, to the concrete floor and destroyed i. They paid me to rebuild it and has been goin strong sin*ce. *[url]http://www.youtube.com/embe...e*[/url]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

And the 3751 in the picture is mine... and it's a cherished possession! 

Greg


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