# Continuing a 3.5" gauge 0-2-2 I just got



## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Hi, I just got in eBay a 0-2-2 coal fired? live steamer with tender. eBay completed listing 130639656712 . it seems to be mostly complete, valve and cylinder assemblies fit together. I'm curious if I made a decent deal and what recommendations everyone here have for it, as well as what kinds of stuff to watch out for and inspect closely upon arrival.
Thank You all in advance
JP


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Ps, including shipping it's about 1/2 price of a new ruby.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

It's a rainhill from 1941 the model engineer magazine. The frame and running gear are good. 

The boiler needs work. It has some leaks in the front, the cylinder has a soldered seam, and more issues. I'm tempted to unsolder everything and start over to know it's done well.


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## Grimm (Oct 5, 2009)

Very cool!  If I remember correctly that engine is based off of the Northumbrian class locomotives. Pictures?


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

I considered bidding on it just to get the tender for my Juliet 3.5 inch gauge but... 

It should look nice when done: 

http://modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/rainhill-3.1-2-g.htm


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

More motivation for you here... 

http://www.stationroadsteam.com/stock pages/3889/index.htm


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

Nice. Has the boiler been soft-soldered? I assume so, if your looking at the possibility of unsoldering it. Remember, you would have to completely remove all the soft solder from mating surfaces and joints in order to properly braze it. You might be better off just scrapping it and starting a new one.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks for the completed pics. They're good inspiration. 

I also see I am missing the fire grate. I haven't checked the boiler if it was soft soldered yet.but 

I'll probably have to redo most of if not the whole boiler, there seems to be something wrong internally with it's connections, and the fire tubes aren't held well in the ends either. 

If I redo the boiler, I'm debating between coal and butane /propane fired. Coal boilers seem to be tougher to build than gas ones, ruby style with multiple burner tubes.


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

Gas would probably work fine, if you could get a burner design to give you enough btu's. Not sure how a Ruby- type boiler would scale up and be efficient. Someone more knowledgeable might chime in? Assuming these engines ran well with the existing design, you might be better off sticking with that. I see the above link will supply drawings. I would get a set of those before doing anything.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks, I might take up a boiler drawing from them. The copy I have is the original 1941 magazine, and im not sure if complete. 

The original design has a superheater as well. 

I received the original 1941 magazines, at least portions of them with plans for this model in it. I will have to photocopy or scan them since the pages are so dry and brittle. I have to be carefull not to look at them the wrong way or they may break apart. 

Im thinking of the gas fire option due to not having brazed before, but I've done lots of regular low temp solder work since I was 3, hopefully the procedure is not too different besides temp. I've never built a boiler either. 

So I am planning on when it is finished to get the boiler professionally tested if I can afford it. Otherwise Ill pressure test it in a safe place per asme boiler pressure spec, or as close as I can to the full spec on top of pressure. 

I definitely want this to be safe.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

The proper way to pressure test is with water only. Because water is incompressible, it will not explode even with a catastrophic failure so is the safe way to test the boiler. use the water pump to fill it full then seal it and give it a couple more pumps until it reaches double the operating pressure. Ideally it should hold that pressure for a half hour. unless you have a shutoff valve between the pump and boiler and have the safety valve removed, keeping pressure up may be easier said then done.


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

""Posted By JPCaputo on 13 Feb 2012 05:48 PM 
Thanks, I might take up a boiler drawing from them. The copy I have is the original 1941 magazine, and im not sure if complete. 

The original design has a superheater as well. 

I received the original 1941 magazines, at least portions of them with plans for this model in it. I will have to photocopy or scan them since the pages are so dry and brittle. I have to be carefull not to look at them the wrong way or they may break apart. 

Im thinking of the gas fire option due to not having brazed before, but I've done lots of regular low temp solder work since I was 3, hopefully the procedure is not too different besides temp. I've never built a boiler either. 

So I am planning on when it is finished to get the boiler professionally tested if I can afford it. Otherwise Ill pressure test it in a safe place per asme boiler pressure spec, or as close as I can to the full spec on top of pressure. 

I definitely want this to be safe."" 


Yes, you definately want to "silver braze" your boiler. Toy steamers, like the little stationary engines, have historically (though not always) been done with low-temp solders, and may be ok for some super low psi's, but wouldn't be advisable or safe for what you're looking at. Do you know what the operating pressure is for this engine? If it's pulling a driver, I would guess it's up around 80+?


Though often called "silver soldering", everything form our ga.1 models on up is really "silver brazed", ie using the much stronger, silver bearing higher temp material. It's really pretty easy to learn, there's just some tricks to it. Key is getting your mating surfaces SHINY clean, and using enough (but not too much or too little) heat. You will need some fire brick, and a suitable torch. I'm not sure how big that boiler is, you might be able to get away with a mapp gas torch, although many use an oxy-acetylene with a wide tip. There's a bit of technique involved here, and you'll have to be careful with that so you don't melt your work. It's like, more mass requires more heat. Try some practice runs first, see what you think. I would also seek the help of someone knowledgeable, or even look at youtube for help.

Please know, I've never built a boiler myself (although I'm entertaining the thought down the road a bit), but I do have a fair amount of experience with silver brazing. There are others on this board who have built pressure vessels who might like to chime in. You can also go to the chaski site, I think it's www.homemachinist.com/live steam forum. There's guys on there who are very well versed in this.


I can't remember, is that an LBSC design? You might want to get his book on building the Tich; though not the same engine, it's very helpful in explaining processes in a way anyone, most of all a beginner, can understand.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks, im following the ruby coal fired boier build thread. It indeed is a LBSC design. 

Soon I need to at least remove the front of the boiler to inspect the inside and figure it out.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Update, Im still doing research on the engine. I finally scanned in all the brittle pages of The Model Engineer Magazine that i have relating to the Rainhill so i can read them without having to worry about disintegrating the pages from breathing to harshly on them. 

Unfortunately my pages 329 and 330 from the april 24 1941 edition have a large section missing from them. It is on the side with the rainhill boiler instructions on page 329. 

I am not sure if i can get this back issue from the publisher, or If anyone can scan in and send me these 2 pages i would be most appreciative.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

PS i found some soft solder to plug leaks in the silver-solder joints. How hard would it be to de-solder the braze or silver solder to recover the fittings and other parts?


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## Ray Cadd (Dec 30, 2008)

De-soldering the braze would be nearly impossible. Probably easier to build a new boiler. 'Caulking' leaks in a brazed boiler with lower temp silver solder......it can be done, but many will advise against it. Also, once you've used the lower temp, you can never braze back over it without removing to soft solder- down to the bare, clean metal. Even then, you will not be able to get it out of the joints. I would personally advise against using the soft solder to plug leaks unless they are very minor.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

If you can get all the paint and gunk off the boiler and wash it thoroughly, perhaps you can then put it into pickling solution used to clean parts after silver soldering. (Even soft soldering is technically "brazing" which is the addition of a second metal to join to parts as apposed to welding. I do not know what folks mean by silver brazing vs silver soldering unless it refers to the temperature the stuff melts.) 

The pickling solution is an acid which eats the oxidation more than the base metal. Sparex is a commercial product, folks also use citric acid with good success. 

Anyhow the goal would be to get the entire boiler cleaned to bare (bright) metal. then you could add silver solder (braze?) to the leaky joints to fix them. you might be able to take the fittings out but I wouldn't count on them being useful afterwards.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

A "Rainhill" was feature in Live Steam magazine (about 30 years ago). The owner made a very elaborate lead weight to fit under the engine. 15 pounds I think. It filled every little nook and cranny. Without the weight, it would not tow very well.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I have put it in vinegar with salt to pickle it. That's how I found most of the low temp solder since it started flaking off after pickling. the braze holds good. It has an overlapping seam that was brazed, It appears this boiler was made from sheet and rolled. 

Should I remove the old graphite seals around the pistons and replace with orings? 

I still have yet to finish the slide valve connecting rods and get it plumbed to run on air. I will need to get packing glands machined and the valve bodies drilled out and tapped for them. 

I have cleaned off all the solidified 1950s motor oil used as assy lube way back when, and relubed. Now the wheels and eccentrics and axle pump turn freely.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Phippsburg Eric on 14 Jun 2012 06:28 PM 
{snip...}[/i] (Even soft soldering is technically "brazing" which is the addition of a second metal to join to parts as apposed to welding. I do not know what folks mean by silver brazing vs silver soldering unless it refers to the temperature the stuff melts.) {snip...}[/i] Eric

I believe if you check into it, you'll find that your above comment is not quite accurate. While soft soldering and silver soldering/brazing have in common the joining of two pieces of similar metal using a dissimilar metal and heat, and these methods are quite separate from the welding process. The resulting molecular bond acquired via silver soldering/brazing is quite a bit different and thus much stronger than that derived from soft soldering. And yes it is the temperature at which brazing takes place that separate the two (i.e. boundary as defined by American Welding Society 842°F/450°C, below soldering - above brazing), which is a direct result of using stronger metal alloys (e.g rough brazing alloy melting temperature range 1,150°F/621°C to 1,550°F/843°C, for jointing copper), and the resulting molecular bond by the dissimilar filler alloy is the other.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

That is just what I recalled from my metal shop class ... which was a few years ago I must add as full disclosure.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

For doing boiler work will a propane BBQ have enough heat to get the whole boiler hot enough so that a propane torch can get the silver solder to melt and flow? I don't have firebricks, so I was hoping if I can crank the BBQ on high with the boiler inside ant just use the torch to get that last few hundred degrees...


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm finding that instead of BA threads the original builder used American threads. 3-56 and 4-48 on the cylinders. 

I found fastenal has these and other hard to find screws in a variety of styles at a good price. Also they have places to pickup will call to save on shipping.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Being a little short on funds to truely work on the boiler, i am temped to run a compressed air tank instead of a boiler to be able to run untill i can afford to properly make a boiler. Has anyone done this? 

Also for trailing car wheels, has anyone tried machining zinc V groove belt pullys? They seem to have a decent profile, and are cheap enough, about $5 ea for 2"od. That would save me a lot of cost and i would be able to machine these with my HF micro 4x5 lathe. 

On another note, does anyone have experience rebuilding the cross-slide for one of these when the brass slide nut has excessive play (1/32" or so)


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I just made some valve linkage. Got a cheap HF tap and die set. The 4-40 die did not thread a steel rod at all cold, even after annealing the rod. 

I ended up getting the rod threaded by threading right after the rod was glowing red hot, cut a few threads, torch again red hot then use the die again. 

I turned the rod down to 0.105 to 0.110 to cut the threads. 

One step closer to running on air.


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

I one time got a cheap tap and die set that I do not think would have cut a decent thread in a hole drilled in a candle! It pays to get decent tools. 

Unless it is hardened tool steel, any decent tap should cut a thread in it if you have the proper sized pilot hole drilled. That is not to say that I couldn't break the tap off in the hole unless I am really careful.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

This tap and die set is going back to HF after a couple more threads are cut. There was no decent lead-in on that die and several others. 

I have a couple good dies that cut no problem, but not in the sizes i need. 

Has anyone used 10-32 compression fittings from http://www.beswick.com/ before? 

I am thinking about using them for the steam inlet to the valve chests. Any comments / suggestions?


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

The material should have been regular steel, 1010 mild. 

I finally made the rest of the valve linkage, it is the right length, but needs some filing to curve the ends and sides to make it look better. 

I just need to mount the last few pieces to hold the guides for the piston rod and ill be able to run on air, probably after running in the mech for a while...


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

The material should have been regular steel, 1010 mild. 

I finally made the rest of the valve linkage, it is the right length, but needs some filing to curve the ends and sides to make it look better. 

I just need to mount the last few pieces to hold the guides for the piston rod and ill be able to run on air, probably after running in the mech for a while...


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I got one cylinder with linkage completely assembled, and timed (hopefully close to right ), however I am having trouble with a lot of air blowing by the slide valve and straight to the exhaust. 

I'm only running about 5-10psi. 

I added some paper above the slide valve to press the valve onto the cylinder tighter. It helps a bit, but still there is a lot of blow-by. 

I'm not sure how to get it running better before working on the other cylinder.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

It should not be necessary to press a slide valve down. The air/steam presses it against the sealing surfaces. If it still blows by, there are 3 possible problems:
1. The valve does not move freely up/down in its slot (there has to be as little as possible play in the fore/aft direction)
2. The sealing surfaces are not level. Try to lap them with 600/1200grit sandpaper. The paper has to be put upside down on an absolute level surface. The parts should be lapped individually in a figure 8 motion. Avoid any rocking motion. A drop of oil does not hurt.
3. The valve is too short and/or the channels are not right, leaving both ports partially open.
Regards


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

Thinking back to when i assembled it last, i have at least problems 1 and 2 for sure. The slide valve does not move too freely up and down, and there are a few nicks and scratches on the mating surfaces. 

How would i check for problem 3? 

JP


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Problem 3... the valve should cover both ports when it is centered. And when either port is uncovered to the steam, the exhaust edge of that port should be covered, i.e.: the wall thickness of the end of the slide valve must be more than the port opening.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I just got back to this engine again. I got the valves lapped and the pistons move with 10-15 psi air. Turning the wheels (simple eccentric valve gear) But it is sticky and doesn't run with the side rods connected. It makes quarter turns but I haven't gotten a full revolution out of it yet.


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