# DCC Systems?



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Who makes true DCC sytems suitable for G Scale?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not sure what you mean by "true."

Ive used the NCE system because it delivers a reliable ten amps. I'm pretty sure Digitrax can deliver 8 amps. The zimo system can go higher than 10 I think, not sure 
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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

If by "True" you mean it complies with all the NMRA standards then Massoth, Zimo and not many else, which have decoders or programming modules that either can't handle the higher voltages of G scale or are really small scale systems hay-wired up to G scale. I would suggest you spend a lot of time reading the online manuals from all the manufactures and see if you can find someone locally to try out their handhelds. It's a long term investment so cost is less important than your satisfaction with the system (at least that's how I look at it). 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I may have instigated the word "true"...

True systems meet NMRA standards, and are track powered. For example, The AirWire system, even though it sends very DCC-like signals over the air, is not a true dcc system, you cannot do all the DCC programming a true system does, it's not on the rails, etc.

There are tons of manufacturers of DCC systems, and to be reasonable for G scale, you also want to get at least 20 volts on the rails, 23-24 being better.

That narrows it down a bit, but remember the "booster" can often be bought separate from the "command station", so you could do a bit of mix and matching there..

My favorite so far is NCE, easy to use, proven, simple menus and not a lot of keystrokes to do stuff. I like the Zimo electronics, but the labelling on the throttle is abbreviations of GERMAN words! It's also a bit more expensive, but still competitive. The Massoth system has nice throttles, again a bit too "gagety" for my taste and probably the most expensive system you can find. Others like Digitrax, but I think their throttle design is dated.

Once you drop below this, you have more entry-level systems, that have fewer features.

Since the DCC system is a one-time investment, a difference of $200 is trivial... your costs are in equipping locos...

If you are considering DCC, you probably will have more than 4 locos equipped.

Have you read my pages on dcc?

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains/dcc...ronics/dcc*

My advice is to find some train clubs (any scale) and see what they use, and maybe you can try one out a bit.

I know the Zimo distributor sometimes will loan one out for evaluation.










Greg


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, let me help you help me. I mean a true DCC system that has a controler and a decoder that conforms to the DCC standards as opposed to the Aristo Revolution that does not conform to those standards. We have added several new members to out train club this year as we have every year. One of the questions that always comes up from a beginner is what control system to buy. I want to put together a list of control systems by type and manufacturer with a description of each. I am familiar with Airwire, QSI and the Aristo Revolution . I am also familiar with DCC from my HO days. I am looking for info on other systems particularily G scale compatible DCC systems wether they are still manufactured or not (because you still find them on ebay sometimes). Ultimately I will compile a giganic list of everything including brand names and model numbers with pros and cons for each system. Any help anyone can give would be appriciated. Sound systems are also included so I need info on those also. Hopefully when it is done it can be added to our club web site for everyone to use. Thank you for your help.


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

I might add a couple more to the list. 

MERG it may be zimo compatible. Their new booster can power g scale 24-30v output up to 10 amps. It is a diy system I'm currently building this system, handheld, command booster and computer connection. So far so good. Quick response and fast shipping from England to the us. 

Open Dcc - lenz digitrax compatible? Also diy most of the instructions are in german though. Not sure about the voltage output. 

Both of these organizations sell kits ready to solder together. 
They also abide by the nmra Dcc standards for communication on the track


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Zimo decoders now are rated at 30 volts, (MTS compatible) and the MX695 has a 10 watt audio output and is programmable and available now. 
New central station soon to come has a 20 amp capability. 
Hand held has a full color screen for engine pictures.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The new Zimo system looks very cool. 

While waiting for QSI to deliver its long-promised titan decoders, I started looking at ESU. ESU makes excellent large scale decoders, including sound decoders, and they also offer an 8 am DCC system, which I haven't tried. It has a very large throttle with a big LCD screen. Based on the quality of the decoders, I'd be interested in looking at ESU, though I haven't actually priced it and an very happy with NCE


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

*Massoth *offers a comprehensive list of DCC products designed to control every aspect of a G scale layout, including NMRA compatible DCC central stations, outstanding CAB digital controllers, digital boosters, driving decoders, sound decoders, pulsed smoke generators, switch decoders, train detection modules, reverse loop module, feedback modules, PC programming modules, lighting boards - with and without decoders, etc.. All of these products are designed to work seamlessly with one another and with many products from other DCC manufacturers. 

There is nothing "gadgety" about Massoth products; *form follows function* would be a more accurate description. 
*
More importantly*, Massoth products are no more expensive than comparable products from other DCC manufacturers.

I encourage you to visit the Massoth Website and find out for yourself.


Mohammed

http://www.allaboutlgb.com/
http://www.massothusa.com/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Here comes the Massoth commercial. aRPC7271, be sure to note that Mohammed is a Massoth dealer, and if you read all of his posts, Massoth is always the best. 

My opinion is having little pretty pictures on the screen of your choo choo is "gadgety"... since DCC works by addressing the locmotive number (from 0 to 9999) virtually everyone maps this number to the actual road number on the loco. Very few people have to figure out what train they are running by staring at a pretty picture on the screen.. to me that kind of stuff is "fluff" that I don't need. Many people in this hobby are older and could use LARGER NUMBERS on the screen to make it more readable, than tons of very small characters. 

I'm not picking on Massoth directly here, I just add it into the class of controllers that have a large screen, and, in my opinion, WASTE all that real estate by adding more information of marginal value, rather than having options to make it more useable in bright outdoor conditions.... color screens in full sunlight are much harder to read than a simple black and white LCD. 

Again, try this stuff OUTDOORS and see what you think, inside won't reveal everything you will run into. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. Check the prices of a Massoth system youself on the price thing.... that is downright untrue about "no more expensive".. it's the MOST expensive system you can buy in the US... jeeze Mohammed....


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Mar 2012 07:33 AM 
Here comes the Massoth commercial. aRPC7271, be sure to note that Mohammed is a Massoth dealer, and if you read all of his posts, Massoth is always the best.

Ha, ha, yes - the "commercial" aspect in this thread actually came to mind for me when I saw the "Zimo: post.
I was sure Mohammed wouldn't be far behind with Massoth.


There are two other systems that are left out in the cold, probably since dealers for these systems don't participate on mls.


One is the Piko system which is similar to Massoth (actually built by Massoth) but with a few less capabilities but als a much lower price tag.

And then there is Lenz which I think also gives you good value for the money.
I like Lenz because it gives you the widest range of different throttles you can use with it and to me, the throttle design, functionality and usability, is probably the most important aspect of a DCC system.

So having a lot of throttles from different manufacturers to chose from is definitely a plus.

Knut 


PS:

To answer the OP's question, there are quite a few DCC systems to chose from for Large Scale - in no particular order (and I may also be missing a few) - I can think of


Digitrax
NCE
Massoth
Piko
ESU
Lenz
Zimo at some future date


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Greg: 

Thank you informing everyone about my dealer status, I certainly need all the help I can get; and I certainly know that you are not picking on Massoth, you are just picking on me, LOL. 

Mohammed


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By krs on 21 Mar 2012 08:12 AM 

Ha, ha, yes - the "commercial" aspect in this thread actually came to mind for me when I saw the "Zimo: post.
I was sure Mohammed wouldn't be far behind with Massoth.



Knut:

You would have been disappointed if I didn't Chime in, wouldn't you? Tell the truth!.

Mohammed


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Mohammed, 

There was no way in the world you wouldn't have chimed in - unless of course you hadn't seen the thread. 

Knut


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Considering you are a beta tester for QSI and others Greg, I hardly think you're coming from a position of neutrality!  

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, you are dead wrong in accusing me, I beta test for others, but I give my honest and unbiased opinion. I do not derive any income from testing, nor do I earn an income as a QSI dealer, or any other commercial venture. I even have refused discounts. I've spent many hours helping many manufacturers try to understand how to improve their products. 


(maybe you associate beta testing with getting free goodies, I won't be "bought" that way.)

(also after testing, I RETURN the equipment) 


This is completely different, not only is a dealer making constant statements about the product (ok, but really not appropriate), but they are virtually ALWAYS that this product is the best. The comments about price go beyond pimping the product, they are flatly untrue. Now we transgressed from pimping to not being honest.

Anyone can look up the price of a Massoth system, and see it is more expensive that the other "top systems", more than Zimo, more than NCE, more than Digitrax. 

So I AM in a position of neutrality, and you should read my posts before you accuse me of this. My "record" is here on this forum. You better not accuse me again, or I'll dredge up all the biased responses of the individuals involved. It's all here on the forum.

I have paid for EVERY QSI component I have, except for the 2 testing units I have had for years, with very early prototypes of the QSI USAT boards, where the understanding is that they are still owned by (in this case) USA Trains. When they want them back, they will get them.

The ONLY things I have EVER received "free" were from Aristo-Craft, humorously enough, not requested by me, they just showed up in the mail. Both products were defective, the Electro-lube lubricant not only destroyed the side frames of freight trucks, but actually ate through it's own container, and the Everest power supply would trip it's breaker every time I tried to power my DCC system with it. Aristo was unable to repair these models, and I gave this unit away. 

For the rest of the audience, Keith is also a big supporter of Massoth. It's good stuff, but it's not the only answer in DCC. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

NEC. Because of their add-on expandibility. I bought a basic starter set, and then started building on from there. And you never have to throw out anything you have, it will all fit into a larger system. 

Best idea I've ever heard of. I'm using a NEC Powercab with and SB5a booster. The total extent of my motive power is two Bachmann K-27's, and I can run them together at speeds up to 30mph with this set up. 30mph was top speed for the K's, so I'm perfectly OK with that. Actually, considering their size, scale 30mph is kind of scary... Just ask my cat. 

Adding an AMS lighted coach is a bit sticky, though. I'll probably go to the 10 amp booster when I start building a layout, and eventually, I want to go with the wireless throttles. 

Robert


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I'm sure it's a perception problem more than anything else, and I certainly agree you are in a different category than manufacturers reps. What I've noticed over the years with DCC products is that people have very strong personal preferences and I know we end up kicking and screaming whenever someone is critical of products that are dear to our hearts. Everyone here knows I love the Massoth navigator handheld, for example, just as we all know you like the NCE handheld. The reality is that almost all of the current DCC products will do the job so it comes down to personal preferences as to which system is best for you. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, I may "jump" the NCE "ship" for myself... I do like the simplicity and readability of the NCE in the sunlight, but some of the extra features of systems like Massoth and Zimo might be useful to me. Far and away, NCE is the choice of clubs that use DCC, no matter what the scale. 

I have been eying the new Zimo booster that (I have been told) can strap it's 16amp and 8 amp outputs to a true 20 amp. 

Also, European systems seem to me more likely to be able to provide 24 volts DCC, whereas the NCE needs hardware modifications to get there. (I think this is due to the LGB influence of higher voltage motors). Since I run passenger trains, and also have some ridiculously low geared locos, getting that last few volts on the rails makes a difference to me. 

Being a "techno" type of person, for my personal use, I may choose something that I would not make my general recommendation. 

The next "nicest" handheld is the Massoth in my opinion, even with the reservations I have given. Still the Massoth and Zimo really need to be "Americanized" in my opinion. I can hand my NCE to a 5 year old and 9 times out of 10 they can run trains, throw switches, and monitor the speed immediately. Many of the "older generation" also like simplicity. (I guess I am in that generation too ha ha). I do not think anyone could call the Massoth and Zimo "simple".... 

But I do stick by my opinions, which are mostly expressed for the "masses", not just for myself, when on this forum. People like you and I basically can adapt to any system, but as you stated, what's best for ourselves is not necessarily the best recommendation for others. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I can hand my NCE to a 5 year old and 9 times out of 10 they can run trains, throw switches, and monitor the speed immediately 

I can hand my Massoth navigator to a 4 year old and 10 out of 10 times they can run trains, throw switches, and monitor the speed immediately.  

Seriously, though, if my old MTSIII central station ever gives up, I would probably end up getting a Dimax 800 because of the built-in automation ability, but if I was starting from scratch I'd also be looking very hard at that new Zimo system. No matter which way you go, choices for us are pretty amazing right now--just look at how powerful the new decoders are with servo ability, Susi integration, sound/load integration...DCC is great in large scale.  

Keith


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Mar 2012 11:03 AM 

I have been eying the new Zimo booster that (I have been told) can strap it's 16amp and 8 amp outputs to a true 20 amp. 


Greg -

Did you get that information from a reliable source?

The latest information I received is that Zimo wasn't even sure if one can draw the full 12 amp (I assume 16 amp in your post is a typo) and the full 8 amp at the same time, never mind the capability of tying the outputs together to get anywhere close to 20 amps.

I just took another look at the current description of the new Zimo MX10 Central Station - the rating there is clearly 12 amps max for the main output - no mention of any capability to tie the main output and secondary (8 amp) output together. I'm sure that capability would be mentioned if it did exist.
Sounds like somebody's wishful thinking that the new Zimo MX10 will provide 20 amps by strapping the outputs together.


Knut


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 21 Mar 2012 11:13 AM 



I can hand my Massoth navigator to a 4 year old and 10 out of 10 times they can run trains, throw switches, and monitor the speed immediately.  


Keith: I can hand my Massoth Navigator to a 2 year old and I am certain that he will stick it in his mouth and slobber all over it.
Mohammed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, the caveat is right there, "I have been told" 

Yes a typo, total right components wrong ha ha! 

It's not unusual to be able to parallel booster outputs, and if any system would have the "smarts" to do this, I think the Zimo would be right up there. 

Dan Pierce and Axel Tillman are the main people I "listen to" about Zimo. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Mar 2012 01:23 PM 

It's not unusual to be able to parallel booster outputs, and if any system would have the "smarts" to do this, I think the Zimo would be right up there.

Yes, the old Zimo system was designed to do that - two 8 amp outputs which one could connect in parallel to get 15 (not 16) amps.

But apparently not the new one - 12 amps seems to be what both Zimo and Massoth are shooting at as a target, the only booster that goes beyond that now is the Heller one with a 15 amp output.

Lenz has a 5 amp system and a five amp booster, one can connect the outputs of those in parallel as well to get more current, but one can only connect two units, not more to get even more current.


There was one DCC booster, the PFC G20 by a company called Perandones Electronics of Switzerland, that was rated at 20 amps out at 22 volts DCC, but the last entry on their website about that product was back in 2002, so I doubt it's still a valid item.

In ant case, back then it was 999 Euros, a bit more than most people want to spend on a DCC booster.

Knut


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, from a rather novice I have standardized on DCC and I use NCE exclusively for my controls. Now when it come to decoders I try everything! (that's the problem when you have over 25 engines - at least that's where I lost count)


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## spoolthis (Mar 22, 2012)

thought i read on here, that the NCE, 10amp booster wont trip untill. 19.2amps? if so seems like NCE would have the the better booster no?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, that has it's good points and bad points... the good point is that you can run all day at 10 amps and not trip the breaker. The bad point is that a nasty short can draw a heck of a lot of current and a loco not fused can get like 15 amps and melt stuff. 

You need to take precautions when you have a high amperage supply. 

I am an NCE owner, but I believe that the short circuit detection circuitry is not as "smart" as things like Massoth, ESU, or Zimo... I want to test this theory. 

Also, as mentioned before, most European boosters will supply up to 24 volts, the NCE supplies only about 20.3 unless you have it modified at the factory. This might be no big deal for many people, but I was not able to run over 62 scale miles per hour on my Aristo E8 diesels for example... this was a passenger train, and I wanted the capability for something around 75 smph. Raising the voltage to close to 24 gave me 92 smph. 

Here I am talking about my particular goals. The NCE stuff is very reasonably priced for what you get, and high quality and reliable. Great service, but there's just a few things lacking for me... 

This is why I'm investigating alternatives. 


Greg


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## spoolthis (Mar 22, 2012)

do you think NCE recently changed the volt output on the equipment now? or do you know if you still have to tell them to change it before shipment? don't think i really need more than 20-22volts... i think i like the NCE so far but just haven't held anything else in my hands yet.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've tried them ALL, believe me! I'm still partial to the NCE, which is what I own right now. 

They will never change the production units, and you have to ask pretty please with sugar on top to get it modified. Again, read what I wrote carefully. If you never run mainline speeds, or passenger trains at prototype speeds, or have any weirdly geared locos, you probably will be fine with the 20.3 volts that most NCE's put out. I've never seen a stock one hit 22... remember I have the equipment to accurately measure DCC voltage, others reporting in often do not. 

Regards, Greg


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## spoolthis (Mar 22, 2012)

sweet. thanks for the fast replies. might jump on the ph10r than..but will try others first.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to clarify, the short circuit protection is built into the Booster, correct, NOT the power supply? 

Robert


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

Robert, 
You are correct, the short cricuit system is in the booster itself. If you look at the dafault power supplies most are nothing more than A/C transformers with a switch!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I use DC power supplies on my NCE, all with short circuit protection and overvoltage crowbar. 

The DCC systems that only accept AC often have the problem with inconsistent output voltage... the better ones regulate their output... another thing that separates the good stuff from the entry-level systems. 

Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

What power supply would you recommend for an NCE SB5a? Right now, I'm using a power supply from an old defuct obsolete laptop at 4.7 amps. I figured if it was good for a laptop, it would work well with my NCE system.


Robert


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you mean the SB3a? 

I'd find a cheap regulated power supply, but I cannot access the manual to understand the maximum input voltage... I got the Meanwell power supplies from Jameco. 

Greg


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## spoolthis (Mar 22, 2012)

NCE Boosters able to be run in parallel/series for more amps?? not that i need to have 20+ amps, just curious...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

no, they cannot be run in parallel as I remember... but few boosters will give you an honest 10 amps all day... many are not rated for continuous outputs, and some are notoriously over-rated. 

Greg


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## spoolthis (Mar 22, 2012)

do you use the Meanwell's or other manufacture? what is your current power supply rated at? looking at the Meanwell S-320-24. 13Amp version.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Try reading this page, it will answer your question and probably a bunch more.

*http://www.elmassian.com/trains/dcc...-implement*











Regards, Greg


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

SB3a, duh! And it's sitting on the shelf behind me, doh! 


Oh. 5 Amps. I have an outdoor lighting transformer, that's 7.35 amps, but I was kind of afraid to use it. Would the Booster's circuitry protect it in case of an overload or short circuit?


BTW, re: your stack, in Colorado, we avoid stacking electronics like that. At our altitude, "air" cooling is minimal at best. Putting my wireless router on top of my cable modem will cause it to overheat, and most people use some sort of cooler for their laptops. A stock P4 fan will usually lead to lots of lockups on warm days.

Robert


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, found this in the manual: 

Power Supply: 
The SB3a requires a 14-18 Volt AC transformer (or 18-24 Volt DC power supply) 
capable of supplying 5 or more Amps. 

That's knid of scary. 5 OR MORE Amps? Like, how many more? Apparently, it only puts out 5.1 regardless of input? 


Robert


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By rdamurphy on 24 Mar 2012 08:39 AM 


OK, found this in the manual: 

Power Supply: 
The SB3a requires a 14-18 Volt AC transformer (or 18-24 Volt DC power supply) 
capable of supplying 5 or more Amps. 

That's knid of scary. 5 OR MORE Amps? Like, how many more? Apparently, it only puts out 5.1 regardless of input? 


Robert

Why is that "kind of scary"?
Any electrical device will only draw as much current as it requires - a sinle 60 watt lightbulb in your home will draw about 1/2 amp but it is connected to a circuit that can supply 15 amps (it's fused at 15 amps).


The key thing is that the supply can at least provide enough current to meet the demand of the load, doesn't matter if it can supply more current, the load will only draw the current it needs.
But that also doesn't mean that you should buy supplies that can provide a huge amount of current you don't need - for one it gets expensive but there are also safety considerations in case of an electrical fault.

Knut


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## JPCaputo (Jul 26, 2009)

For using a larger power supply, not all power supplies are rated at continuous duty levels. Some cheaper ones are rated at max, or intermittent duty levels to make them seem bigger than they really are. 

If you plan on running a power supply at max all day long, it is going to heat up a lot. A supply rated for more power will not heat up as much, and last longer. A little bit more goes a long way.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's true that running electronics at 50% of their capability normally lets them last longer than running at 100% 

But, there is very little heat generated from modern switching power supplies. 

In addition, given 2 supplies, both 90% efficient (that's how they are rated)... putting out 10 amps from a 10 amp unit, and 10 amps from a 20 amp unit will result in the SAME heat output. (Fundamental laws of energy). 

A larger supply might not get a warm to the touch, but it's because of more metal an probably more fan(s). 

Greg


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## Skipford (Apr 23, 2012)

So just to clarify, is the CVP Easy DCC Master Command Station CS2B considered a "real" DCC system compliant with NMRA? 

I thought a bunch of people on another thread were singing the lauds of the T5000E throttle? Is this system one that should be a top contender as well?


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## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

The SJR&P uses a Digital plus by Lenz system with seven 10 amp power districts. The power districts use a combination of LV200s and pairs of LV102s. We use a DCC track voltage of 21.5V DCC. I could parallel more then 2 LV102s but perfer a 10 amp limit per district. Power is provided using 6 Aristocraft switching power supplies. 

Our last operating sesion had a crew of over 30 and the system worked flawlessly as usual. 

We used to use NCE 10 amp power stations which are being sold should any one have a need for more. 

Stan Ames


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Easy DCC system is an entry level system in my opinion, and has some quirks. I think I have a used one you could buy, the owner upgraded to NCE. 

You basically get what you pay for in DCC, although many of the European systems are much more expensive, and somewhat overpriced in my opinion. (Also buy American). 

Greg


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## Skipford (Apr 23, 2012)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Greg Elmassian on 26 Apr 2012 10:40 PM 
The Easy DCC system is an entry level system in my opinion, and has some quirks. I think I have a used one you could buy, the owner upgraded to NCE. 

You basically get what you pay for in DCC, although many of the European systems are much more expensive, and somewhat overpriced in my opinion. (Also buy American). 

Greg 
Okay so when you say quirky and entry level system, does that mean it's not true DCC? It is a company based in America? Don't know if the parts are American made. Don't a bunch of people use those throttles they make? Are they using them on a different command center?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, I mean quirky and an entry level system. Exactly the words I used. 

"True DCC" means nothing, since most people cannot agree what that means, has been hashed out many times. 

There was no implication about the number of people using it. 

I was talking about European systems are more expensive for what you get in my opinion (and I like to buy American also) 

I hope this clarifies any misinterpretation of what I posted. 

Greg


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