# The economy and a troubling rumour...



## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I have just managed to acquire an AMS Jackson & Sharp C&S coach from a major retailer. It turns out that this was the _last_ one at either of their stores and was a "demonstrator" model. Since I am using it to build my Pagosa Springs #212 Combine with a Rio Grande UK kit it was perfect as is. The point, though, is that I checked _everywhere _and there were none available! The announcement of new products from Accucraft hinted that we would be seeing these cars in the Fall 2009. I have chatted with various retailers about the availability of new items and when they are expected in and was told, "We don't know! We aren't being told anything!" 

What _is_ being speculated is that the manufacturers are tightening their collective belts and are producing less product. Specifically, they are trying to produce only enough to satisfy orders already made. (In the case of Accucraft this would indeed seem to be the case.) With the economy the way it is we will probably have to get used to this new dynamic. What it might mean for already announced future products is open for debate. It wouldn't be the first time that an already announced engine is cancelled or "put on the back burner!" Add to this the fact that so much of our stuff is now being produced in China and there are all kinds of politics now involved and this already murky situation becomes even more cloudy!

With Bachmann showing off their new Forneys in July I was hopeful that we would see them before Christmas but I am now expecting them to trickle in sometime next spring. The MSRP of $1100 kind of dampened my enthusiasm. They are still incredibly beautiful models but I have to wonder how many of these engines will sell because of their expense. Even at a more realistic $699 (which is about where the K-27 is) still seems steep considering that the K-27 is a monster compared to the relatively small Forney. Nothing has been said about them for _months_ on the Bachmann forum! Add to this the fact that LGB Forney's start in the $200's on ebay and that Accucraft's _live steam _Forney lists for around $700 and I'll let you make the call...

Retailers are running out of stock. Manufacturers are not replenishing them in anything resembling a timely fashion. Communication between manufacturers and retailers is less than optimal. Add everything together and it _is_ troubling for the immediate future of our hobby. At the very least it's not going to be business as usual anymore.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

ams is big into on3 and on30 right now


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, 

During the Southwest Garden Railroad Show at Pomona Fairplex last weekend, I believe I saw a note on Jonathan Bliese's table that the J&S coaches would be available in January 2010. Maybe Jonathan will catch your post and respond.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

when I talked to AMS they are talking more like the middle of the year and they are doing nothing in G untill the end of the first quarter....


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not just talking about the AMS J&S coaches! I used them as an example for what is symptomatic for the entire industry. Has anybody else noticed that when you contact your LHS and ask, "What's new?" You get, "Absolutely nothing!"?


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

Strange , and the economy has really slowed things down , like the AC PCC car that still is not out . 
But in a different view , the other two interest I also have , rc airplanes and helicopters , and RC trucks , these mfrs are bringing new product to the customers so fast its unbeliveable , and it keeps comeing fast , so fast people on the forums complain that there is so much so quickly there isn't enough money in hand to get all of the new products . 
Sure is different from large scale trains right now . 

Do you ever wonder if the price of track shooting thru the roof , slowed LS trains growth too much ? And the hobby dollars have went elsewhere ?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis, 

I believe that the huge increase in the price of track a couple of years ago had a big effect on the growth of the hobby.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

and the economy has really slowed things down 
It did occur to you that, if we (the buyers) are slowing down our purchases due to the economy. then they (the sellers) have less cash flow to fund new projects. And they have to clear out the old inventory to make room for the new. (If you want an Accu C-19 live steamer, now is the time to buy one!)


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, I pretty much agree with your observations. For myself, there is a bright side. I am one of those who cannot just shake the box and play with what's inside, whether a lowly Bachmann 1:20.3 flat or an expensive live steamer. With new stuff that interests me apparently delayed, I have a chance to go back to previous purchases just waiting to be bashed. Heck, I never even waited for a delivery date for the J&S combine (heard the one about "Accucraft Time"???); bashed one of the newly arrived, and available, coaches into one a year ago. 
I know that my approach to the hobby is not for everyone, and not every modeler cares to go to the lengths that I sometime do. But, one thing I learned from being a financial supporter of the Accucraft 4-4-0 project is to not put much faith in any manufacturer's announcements. If a new product hits the dealers shelves, great. If not, so what, it's just a hobby. Let the manufacturers worry about what we are thinking, not the other way around. 
Ok, I'm off my soapbox now. "Accucraft Time", I love it! 

Larry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve,

Last year, I had several conversations with George Adams, who was the customer service manager at Aristo until just after the spring ECLSTS. His take on the large scale industry is that it is dead, and the hard times of the economy sped up the dying trend. I guess he was right since Aristo laid him and most of their staff off. I don't necessarily agree, but I am on the outside looking in, like you. 

For a specific example, I'll offer my mallet story. George tells me that aristo makes about 200 of each roadname when they do a run. So, that's 200 B&O mallets, 200 PRR Mallets, etc. As I understand it, these were done in two batches in 2004. So, if they did a run of 12 road names (including an undecorated and a variant for D&RGW), that's 2400 units. Late last year, after aristo dumped their remaining stock to make room for new stock, I jumped and got one of the last ones. Now, if you go looking for an aristo mallet, you are going to have a hard time finding any, let alone a specific road name/number. My preference would have been for a GN version, but ended up with a B&O since it was the only one available with a vandy tender. And if you notice, there are no plans for reissue. That means my mallet sat 4 years on a shelf somewhere. Same story with their Pacifics and Mikados. Almost none available, none in stock at aristo and no plans for reissue. It has led me to the mindset of if I see something I like, buy it. 

By direct comparision, their new Revolution Train Engineer seems to be selling so well that there are no receivers available. I spoke with Gary at Ridge Road on Saturday and he indicated he expected some more Rx's by the end of this month. 

Thomas saves the day?
Incidentally, there seems to be a fair bit of interest in the new Bachmann Thomas line of large scale trains. My 2 year old seems to like Percy so I pre-ordered a Percy and Troublesome Trucks set for him. In looking at the pictures of the Thomas and Percy, I am hopeful that these will be well received by the broader market. Combining the popularity of Thomas with the size and durability of large scale, I am very hopeful this will be a success for Bachmann. And if he is a success for Bachmann, that could lead to more exposure for large scale and possibly more people getting in to large scale. I think this is especially important because of the loss of LGB, the brand name of large scale. I guess someone is making LGB trains again, but I think we could agree it is not the same LGB of the late 80s early 90s. It is exciting to think of a large scale line similar to what has been made in OO, but I think the curves will limit what gets made. Probably just the smaller 4 and 6 wheel locomotives. Still, it could lead to a lot of kitbashing projects, which also helps to grow interest in the hobby. 

Let's face it, this is a fragmentented niche hobby in a niche hobby. It may be dying, I really don't know. My money is limited, so I . I DO know that for me, personally, the hobby is growing, but very very slowly. I am clearly not supporting the manufacturers with my meager purchases of old stock. I am currently considering a major track expansion, but the cost of track is giving me pause. To add my second mainline loop, I am looking at about $1200. And all I am counting there is track, not the ballast, retaining walls, and diamonds I would have to do buy in order to build the line and keep my wife happy!!! No idea where that will come from, but I know it won't happen all at once. I also need to add REVO rx's to my locomotives. All it takes is money. 

And really, I don't think there is much comparision between the LGB forneys, that silly accucraft Ruby forney and the new Bachmann Spectrum forney. If one were to consider that locomotive as a true 2' gauge model, what scale does that make it? Not 1:20.3, right? That's 3' gauge. Isn't it something like 1:13.7? If it is a 1:20.3 model of a 2' gauge forney, it'll be cool to see guys move the wheels closer. The 2' gauge railroads almost look like monorails to me! My buddy Chris France is a 2' gauge freak, despite his standard gauge interest and 1:29 railroad. I don't think he plans to purchase one, but perhaps that will change if he sees one in person. Myself, I liked the On30 version, so I am already partial to the inside frame version. To me, it has the potential to be a good companion to my 1:22.5 rolling stock and my spectrum 4-4-0. Possibly even a 1:29 standard gauge stand in with a different cab. 

My 2c.

Mark


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

There are rumours, and rumours of rumours. 

Over here in UK the AMS cars came and went inside a couple of months - I had a set of five ordered from one of our major AccuCraft dealers here in UK delivery October 2008 and they never ever appeared. 

Now we hear on a vape-grine that Aristo-Craft is terminating the production of the Euro Class 66 loco. 

With no real steer from the importers of Aristo-Craft [Bachmann Europe] and no importer at all for AccuCraft except Lorenz Schug in far-off Detzem, Germany [who only wants to be paid in Euros at one to the pound], we seem to to have been left high and dry for many items that you guys take for granted. 

It seems that we will not even get to see the new Bachmann 'Thomas' stuff, for those who are fans. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you think its any surprise Accu's newest model is a modest little Docksider? I dont, not many will be able to fork out $2-3K for a new loco, but maybe $600. Especially if its an iconic little chunker like the Docksider. Heck, even I would like to have the electric version. 

If I startd today, I'd be pretty well priced out of large scale, or at least very constricted on my options, especially concerning track. When I started I could buy LGB R1 switches for $25, 16000 switches for $45, today those prices are almost double or even much higher depending on the brand. It really does put a crimp on your aspirations. I know that if I am indeed stuck indoors from here on out, On30 looks far more affordable and flexible for me. I bought a ton of track before LGB did the big firework and all the prices when loony, I'm glad I did so looking at the prices today. 

PS What the heck ever happened to Bachmann's live steamer or Aristos 0-4-0 fingerburner??? Been awefully quiet lately....


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

To my surprise, I did notice that the local Home Depot is selling what looks like a New Bright Christmas train sets...for under forty bucks... 

On the one hand it is New Bright (junk?)...on the other, this is the first and only large scale train set I've seen in the stores around here. 

I have a suspicion that we are looking at a back to basics retrenchment for large scale stuff. A lot of the specialty stuff is probably going to go away or get scaled way back...but meanwhile there will be kids (of all ages) dinking around with the New Bright and Bachmann sets and whatever else gets released. Some of those 'around the tree' layouts are going to make the transition to 'around the kids room' (think of the people we get wandering in here now and again asking about how to do such layouts) or set up on tables in the garage or something.


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## digger (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll chime in on the thesis that the price of track is a major deterrent to further growth of our little corner of the hobby. I've met several newcomers, or "Tire Kickers", who lost the gleam in their eyes when they started pricing out their dreamed-of layout at $7 per foot plus close to $100 for a decent turnout. Cars and locomotives can still be found at relatively reasonable prices, in part due to people retiring, passing away, or just giving up the hobby, or manufacturers liquidating excess inventory. Used track in good condition is hard to find, and it's a lucky person indeed who finds just what is needed. Like Vern, I doubt that I would have gotten started in large scale if I'd had to do it at prices comparable to today's. 

I think there's a saturation factor, too. Most of the guys my age have already acquired most of what they can ever realistically hope to use. I can keep myself busy for years just tinkering with what I have. The things I'll buy are mostly add-ons, refinements, etc. For several years, we got to ride a wave of explosive growth and high demand. Unless there's a significant infusion of new modelers, the demand is going to stay flat or dwindle. That doesn't bode well for the development of new models and gambling on the large investments required. 

I talked with an Accucraft/Aristocraft dealer yesterday at the Great Train Show in Denver. He told me that Accucraft is unlikely, at this point, to go ahead with either the EBT locomotives or the Alleghenies, and closer to home, his business has definitely felt the pinch of the economic hard times. Typically, the November show in Denver has been a big success. This year, not so. More droolers than buyers, and fewer people in attendance than in years past. There just isn't as much "play money" to go around. 

I don't believe that the hobby is dying. It's just not growing as fast as it did. These big trains have very popular appeal and generate a lot of interest. As brighter days eventually return, there may be a resurgence in growth. But this feels like a long haul.....


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny, as economic downturns have historically been upswings in this hobby, starting with the major efforts during the depression. 

.....but that was back in the days of people making things Vs. just buying them.


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## norman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Guys:

Price of track ?

Look at this prototype photo:










Iron plates on top of wood beams spaced with tie rods !

In reference to the clearance sales of the past:

The second run of the Bachmann 4-4-0 Eureka was blown out at 230.00 retail following previous sales of the blue boiler version at 400.00 retail.
Bachmann must have been losing money on the Eureka blow out.

The Aristo Craft Mikado and Mallet had loose drivers on the axles. The tapered axle idea wasn't fool proof. That must have hurt sales.
The Aristo Craft Mikado live steam with *keyed *axles was finally blown out at *only 800.00* !
Aristo Craft must have lost money on the blow out of the live steam Mikados. 

For myself, I had bought some nice items during the blow out period. This " irrational exuberance " lead to a surplus of previously purchased trains which I then traded in at a dealer to consolidate into fewer items.

My only present temptation is the Bachmann Forney. But the track gauge is wrong. What is the point of marketing 1:20.*3* , not just 1:20 mind you, and then build the Forney locomotive to the wrong track gauge especially when O gauge is the correct 1:20.3 gauge for two foot ? Frustrating.

The AMS J&S coaches are just physically too large for my use. I really wanted to buy some. But they are just too big !

Maybe Bachmann could produce a Spectrum level 1:22.5 J&S coach .

As to the economy, we are ALL still in really big trouble. Unemployment went up again last month in both Canada and the United States.

I fear that many of us may yet personally experience economic hardship not seen since the Great Depression. Some of us may need to rely on our relatives for housing and food. 

Moving in with the Mother in Law. Could anything be worse than that ?

Norman


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Track price has always been a problem, that was a major sticking point for me 15 years ago, seemed high then, but it pretty comparable to now, 
as I recall. I paid about $3.50 or so a foot for what is now SVRR code 250 NS.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

*Well fellas, its one thing to sit around here and be-moan the state of the economy, the health of the *
*train mfgrs & suppliers, etc... But, what U should be doing is going shopping, there R some TERRIFIC*
*BARGAINS to be had out there right now... I've managed to pick up about 15 pieces in the last 2-3 *
*months for absolute give-a-way prices, an I'm still shopping... So quit Ur belly-aching, get out there 
and **scratch **up some deals **for Urselves...*
*Paul R..*


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes, 
It is a buyers market. 
And, as someone else has stated: Find something you want, buy it. You may not get another chance. 
Ralph


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## Bighurt (Sep 15, 2009)

This sounds like all the manufactures across all the scales.

Athearn is only producing what is pre-ordered now, along with a handful of others. If you forsee the release you may not get a second chance in the up and coming years. Granted there will be the retailer that pre purchases a ful lot, but that's a random event.

One of the posters was right though there are great deals to be had, unfortunately many of us are feeling the same economic bind that is squeezing the retailers.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The new situational dynamic. Yes, I went over to ebay last night just to see what was available. For brevity's sake I will stick to Bachmann engines for this posting. As far as choice is concerned, there were three 36T Shays, a Climax, a 4-4-0, _multiple _2-6-0's and Connie's (all for under $250!), a couple of K-27's for $699 scads of rail-trucks, and dinky diesels (yeah, yeah yeah...personal opinion, deal with it!) as well as a _Spectrum _Diesel. Not to be left out were a plethora of 55T 3-truck Shays for anywhere from $339 up to $800 (go figure..) If you're looking for 0-4-0's there are saddle tank and side tank switchers galore. _Then_ we get to the Big Haulers! There is nearly every variety being offered from the earliest (not recommended) to the Annie's and even a couple of 2-4-2's. What there _wasn't_ available was a factory Mallet (there _is_ a gorgeous scratch-built one with Phoenix sound for under $500!)

The bottom line is that right now IS a great time to get deals! The selection is vast and the prices are reasonable! Of course, the prices are reasonable for locomotives. Track is another matter! Prices on them is through the roof!! I'm not certain if I would get into Large Scale now if I had to face these prices! If anything, track prices will be LS's achilles heel.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Well I don't know if this fits in this thread but.... 95% of my rolling stock and track are used. I bought one box of 20 ft curves new last X mas from RRS. That is about how I can do things in this hobby. I have 10 engines all bought from guys here on MLS. I satred in 95 ( I think) with used track from a 79 year old train buff . Then I bought a bunch more from a guy in Las VEgas. The only new I have was two tank cars I got at BTS. I bought my USA 5 car articulated containers cars from Treeman at Martys 2 sets. My third set is from Stan C used. My Streamliner 7 cars was from Rocky. 
26 box cars and two cattle cars all used. 8 flat cars used. 4 cabeese used. I an not fussy abut road names. I may relabe then later as soon as I can decide what my RR colros should be. I have a SD 45 that had gear box problems. I found a set of motor blocks for it on E bay. I am looking for one more used SD-45. Iam open buying anything ( except live steam). I did not really intend to do it this way it just happened.


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rumors are fun, since we are really speculating..

Track is our achillies heel in this niche! At the time you think you should purchase it, you end up putting it off. For anyone who has done anything requiring fabrication using any metal, the price of metal took off starting in early 2004. Copper prices led the way, and steel soon followed. This was mostly attributed to a booming Chinese market. Maybe it has already been forgotten here, but thieves were stealing and scrapping copper piping and wiring at an alarming rate. Remember the railroad museum who finished putting in bronze bushings on their Alco S-2 (or somesuch) only to arrive one day and find that someone had removed and seemingly scrapped them? Probably brought a couple hundred dollars for some parts that cost thousands to manufacture. At that time, track prices didn't seem affected, which was kind of weird, considering that all the other metal based products were exploding. (In the fabrication business I was in at the time, steel prices were good for about one day. Not 6 months, not 30 days, but one day.) Demand for copper dropped out last October following everything else, but has since rebounded. (I was laid off as a result but was fortunate enough to be picked up by a former customer). Steel prices have been climbing since the beginning of the year. Last I checked, they were up about 50%. The point is that now we are stuck with track prices seemingly based on metal prices of the boom times. Until that stock of product is moved, I don't think we'll see much of a reduction in price. And really, track has got to be a low margin product. Why would you look to make a huge profit on track? I look at it like this: The more track I can afford, the bigger the railroad I can build. The bigger the railroad, the more trains I could run. The more trains I can run, the more likely I am to purchase new locomotives, requiring me to purchase more track!!! It is a fun and viscious cycle. 

When I contemplate selling the mountain of brass track I have accumulated through the years, I am torn by how to price it. On the one hand, I know I would move it all if I priced it like my yard sale, $1 a foot. On the other hand, I don't know if it is worth my while to be selling circles of 4' diameter track for $12. Especially considering that I will have a perfect use for that track when Luke gets just a little older. But, the reality is that I'd rather be running trains outside on the big railroad than setting up dinky layouts in the house with varying degrees of success. So, what's reasonable these days? I don't want to come across as greedy, but I also can't afford to simply give stuff away, know what I mean? Maybe this is the situation of the dealers, too. Letting the manufacturer hold product until orders are received, then drop shipping product. It also appears that some dealers are getting creative to attract new business. I noticed that G-scale Junction has an offer in their ad this month for installation of metal wheels and aristo ball bearings for $18. I can't even get metal wheels for that price, so that seems like a terrific way to attract business by offering a service most of us would perform anyway! I have never purchased anything from them but it is certainly tempting.

Ebay is a fun and dangerous place!! I set up searches in my profile there so I get emails whenever something "New Haven" shows up in G scale. That's how I was alerted to the orange and green FA-FB I won this summer. In that case, those locomotives appear to have been display only models and were custom painted and detailed. Easily a $500-$600 job. I purchased them for less than I paid for a set of new FA-FB's 12 years ago. So, for me the hobby is growing very slowly here at home. Purchases are discussed (especially since I bought the FA-FB without telling MB...whoops!) before they are made, and are for specific reasons. Case in point, the new Percy set for Luke. If I am going to continue growing my railroad, I need to become more disciplined about saving. I think that could be what we all learn from this economy.


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 08 Nov 2009 02:32 PM 


Retailers are running out of stock. Manufacturers are not replenishing them in anything resembling a timely fashion. Communication between manufacturers and retailers is less than optimal. Add everything together and it _is_ troubling for the immediate future of our hobby. At the very least it's not going to be business as usual anymore.

No surprise there. I anticipated this some time ago and even stated here on this forum that these shortages would almost certainly occur. Over the last two years I have made sure that I had already acquired all the rolling stock I would be requiring for my long term plans. All I lack are some 1:20.3 pieces of rolling stock, of which two passenger cars are the most critical. Everything else I have on hand for at least five more years worth of model railroad expansion, not counting track. It seems unlikely that there will be a shortage of track. If THAT happens, all bets are off !


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm.......used track or new? I use Aristo or USA brass track with European spacing (more narrow gauge looking) ties. My track is weathered to a nice patina and if and when I ever need to replace a section it's jarring to see that brassy shine for over a year! Since I have moved exclusively to r/c battery power I no longer worry about continuity problems so I will probably go for the used track! My biggest problem with track is the "UV resistant ties" not being quite so resistant! Essentially, I end up having 5 ft. rails of weathered "flex track" without the ties to go with it! Time for a call to Caboose Hobbies! Oh yeah, I probably ought to think about a Train-Li railbender purchase too...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Personally, I don't think the hobby has ever been more affordable than it is today. Whether it's the 2nd-hand market, or just less expensive new stuff when compared to relative costs of other goods, you can get a lot more bang for that percentage of your income compared to what you could get 20, 30 years ago. Part of the issue, though, is that we still view $200 for a locomotive to be a healthy outlay of cash. Bumping that up to $700 - $800, and it gets even harder to justify. (Nevermind that the original LGB mogul sold for $350 - $400.) There's a mental hurdle that we need to overcome before we can begin to see the hobby as actually being inexpensive. We look at costs per locomotive without looking at what you're getting for that cost compared to what you did years ago. Compare LGB's "Silverton" passenger cars with Bachmann's new long caboose. They sell for about the same street price, but there's simply no comparison as to which gives you more for your dollar. 

I think the wider problem is saturation. For starters, we're no longer this homogeneous group of "scale be damned" modelers. We've splintered into specific interests, and while many of us still run whatever we may like, we're only buying it because we like it, not because we have to in order to have something reasonable to run. Some of us have dedicated ourselves to one specific scale, essentially removing ourselves from all but one or two manufacturers' markets. Gone are the days of the ubiquitous mogul that everyone in large scale had to own. Now, manufacturers have to contend with production runs of 1,000 or 2,000 locomotives total, with tooling costs that approach the 7-figure mark. That's not exactly a recipe for high profit margins. One manufacturer told me once that the molds for a particular locomotive "would never be paid for" by the sales of that locomotive. That ain't like $4 prescriptions as a loss leader to get you into the grocery store. That's a significant chunk of change whose role is to promote the sales of other equipment that will hopefully work to pay back the production costs. That's an expensive gamble. 

Personally, I think we're something of a victim of our own success. We have manufacturers making exactly what we want, a strong second-hand market for stuff that's out of production, and a limited amount of storage space that's making us take a realistic look at how much we can physically own at any one time. That all combines to slow our demand for new stuff, which (in my opinion) isn't exactly a bad thing. I think the pendulum needs to swing. Yeah, I wish my EBT mikado wasn't on the bubble, but given the choice between waiting a bit longer for that to come out vs. forcing out a product and going under as a result, I'll bide my time. I've got plenty to keep me busy. 

Later, 

K


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Except for making some things I want, that are not made, I am not planning on buying anything more. Have more freight cars than I can carry out very easily, have plenty of engines, two passenger sets. Never did really buy that much, most of my stuff I made and still do. Not going to expand the layout any more either. Any bigger and it would be too hard to take care of, so leaving it as is. I've never been a 'completist' having to have everything, as some are. Fine with me if you want to buy all that stuff but I am content.


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm probably a bit younger than most on here... (just guessing by what I see at the ECLSTS) I'm still a few years under 40...
And I got into Large scale trains because of the prices... I wasn't around it when it all started... or in the LGB only days...

Yes the track is a bit pricey... but I add on where and when I can... I run indoor so my space is limited...
My fisrt layout was 80 inches by 80 inches.... 2 small loops with one spur...
I enlarged to 12x12 in an L shape....
then we moved...
Now my layout is about 12 x 24 or so... I have a plethora of track I have accumulated... mostly new, but some used....

I have bought locos and rolling stock new, used, on sale, traded, ebay etc... and for the most part if you look around the prices are great...

My Pacific cost me $125 at the ECLSTS... not the road I wanted so I painted and lettered it ...

I can find FAs for $100-$150 all day long...

My GP38 was $240 with a caboose brand new...

My Gp7/9 was $125 Brand new...

My dad used to run HO and I ran N scale... I was paying 1/2 t that price for a nice N scale loco... and look what I got...
My dad has some HO engines that cost more than most of my 1/29 stuff...

Bang for the buck nothing beats Large scale...

Philip


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## Gary Lantz (Feb 20, 2008)

Cheer up! all is not doom and gloom. the biggest problem with the growth of this segment over the last five quarters has been the shortage of available good track (like stainless). We are dealing with a more informed buyer and they want the good stuff. When we cant supply track everything slows accordingly. Its like a sailboat with no wind. Purchasing forecasts need to be done way in advance and we are seeing the repercussions of trying to estimate stocking levels from when everything tanked. Track backorders are stronger than ever but not for cheap track or brass track. When track stock levels start to get back to demand levels we will see demand for everything go back up. As for the price of track - have you looked at how much a section of Lionel track costs lately??? The difference is the Lionel track is available.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

The only squeeze i'm felling is when i told my girlfreind last nite i spent 712.89 on train signals, and that her butt was getting fat......... OOOOOOOOO Did i fell a squeeeeeeeeeeze.......

















I buy what i can as funds pemit...unless of course you buy from Jerry then you pay retail plus 20% .......HAAAAAAAAA


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Today, much to my surprise, guinea pigs are $40 at the local petshop.... 

180HR15 XAs Michelin tires for a car I used to own are now $283 each....Paid $100 each in 1995 from Coker here in Chattanooga. 

The new Marklin LGB cars are a roaring bargin at $100 each when RTR HO cars are $30-40....


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Despite my downsizing, I'm still planning to pick up Bmanns new Thomas line next year, but I'll be cutting off that pasty pilsburry doughboy face and replacing a proper smokebox door.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By vsmith on 12 Nov 2009 09:01 AM 
Despite my downsizing, I'm still planning to pick up Bmanns new Thomas line next year, but I'll be cutting off that pasty pilsburry doughboy face and replacing a proper smokebox door. Alass your scoundrel







. You would defile Thomas the tank Engine. I am appalled.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By John J on 12 Nov 2009 10:11 AM 
Posted By vsmith on 12 Nov 2009 09:01 AM 
Despite my downsizing, I'm still planning to pick up Bmanns new Thomas line next year, but I'll be cutting off that pasty pilsburry doughboy face and replacing a proper smokebox door. Alass your scoundrel







. You would defile Thomas the tank Engine. I am appalled.










Yup i agree, Let the beatings begin..........







HA HA HA


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Thomas





I'd like you to meet Mr Razorsaw, 





He'd like to get to know you better....


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Vic,

I think I read the faces are removable without a razorsaw!!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, wheres the fun in that?


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

BTW Thanks Jerry......... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Well then.....I suppose he wouldn't be such a _"cheeky" _engine anymore!


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