# Regner Max - no power



## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Has anyone else run the new Max yet. Mine continues to have barely enough power to move. The fire seems desperate to escape at the bottom of the boiler. I can comfortably hold my hand above the flue. No draft! The flue appears to be about 75% blocked by a hexagonal set of rods that I assume are for heat recovery. But if no air can pass, then there is no heat to recover. Adding an extension flue helps a little, but not enough.

Also, I suspect that the steam lubricator is not allowing enough steam oil to enter the cylinder. The lubricator is built-in to the cylinder assembly. It holds a total of about 2drops of oil with the passageway on the bottom with a ball bearing covering the hole. Now, the last I heard, oil was still lighter than water, which would imply that a tiny amount of oil may enter the cylinder as the cylinder heats up, being displaced by condensate. At which point the oil remains trapped at the top above the water layer. Is there any known steam lubricator design with the hole on the bottom?


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

George, I haven't actually seen one yet, but what are you using for fuel?


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## HeliconSteamer (Jan 2, 2008)

George, 
Check to see if there is a bind in the gear train. I had that issue with my Chaloner, along with rather rough port faces which had to be lapped to improve the seal and running. 

Best of luck, 
Paul


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Max burns gelled alcohol - Sterno. It is basically a German BAGRS design - with double action cylinder and direct gear drive. Changing the gel from ethanol to methanol base and thinning with extra alcohol has little effect. It acts like a nearly smothered fire, no draft. The fire keeps trying to escape around the base rather than going up toward the boiler. No improvement from break-in.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

How about using a fan to get the fire started ~ like alcohol fired locos only less force ~ and then maybe the hot boiler will create enough draft.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I don't think a fan start will help. The hex pattern heat recovery doodad limits the stack flow to the equivalent of maybe 1/4 " diameter. The obvious solution is to drill the sucker out, but I hesitate to do that in case the result is a leaking boiler and it is not reversible.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

Why not send an E-mail to Regner - in English! If push comes to shove, I offer a translation (either way). 
Regards


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably not, I have e-mailed them several times in German without a single reply.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Regner America advertises in Steam in the Garden. www.traindept.com Phone 757-855-6364 Where did you buy it?


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## John Riley (Jan 3, 2008)

George and group.

I have a Regner MAX and after a very few runs on Sterno I modified the burner tray by installing a lip which cut down on flame burning where it wasn't wanted.
My modification saved the boiler paint job but seemed cut down on it's capacity to generate steam.

At that point I decided that it would benefit from butane firing. I completed the tank-regulator-burner build today and on the first firing got a 19 minute (5 min to come up to temperature 14 minutes of spinning wheels) run on a rolling road consuming 40 ml of H2O before I shut it down. My home made burner worked OK but the gas regulator I built needs reworking. I never did raise enough pressure to lift the safety valve, but did have to throttle back the steam regulator to keep the single cylinder ossie from running too fast . 

Before drilling out the heat transfer rods (tubes?) in the stack I suggest considering a change to gas firing. 

John Riley


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason I asked about fuel is I would probably attempt to use the gelled alcohol that comes in a squirt bottle for fondue. (It seems to burn hotter than sterno.) I would not drill out those rods. I have four Regner engines (only one is the "easy line"), they all have TUBES that cross the exhaust. If you bought it from Ken, I would reccomend returning it to him for an evaluation. (This is all based on speculation, as I have said in my previous post, I have not seen one yet.)


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I just bought one and my exhaust tube was blocked, no big deal, just heated it up with a torch and put slight pressure on the tube(air compressor) to blow out the blocked tube (silver soldier blocked it). 

I got the fire to run hotter by taking regular Sterno and mixing some denatured alcohol into it until the gel still held together but acted like the fondue burner paste (I need to know a local store that sells this fondue burner paste lol, would like to try it) 

I changed with my safety valve (raised it about 5 psi) and it will run on the bench constantly well (it will stay at near max pressure) but when I run it on my track it will almost make it around 1 lap, but usually stops once which is weird. 

I was hoping that I could "break-in" this engine on the air compressor for a few hours and see if I can loosen up the engine. 

Ill post a video when I get around to it, too much going on (I even have a nice HD video(on my new HD camera) of my fathers K28 running on labor day and haven't gotten around to posting it, grr) 

Question 1, 
There is a screw on the piston shaft that goes into the piston, mine is loose, when I screw it in it doesn't run as well as when its loose, but I cant keep it loose because it will loosen up to the point of binding up the piston from making a complete revolution. 

Question 2, 
Does anyone have documentation on improving the power of this type of engine (double acting oscillator), would like to pull some of my mini LGB barrel cars one day 


P.S.:
There is a forum of the RC livesteam boat guys tinkering with it (the last pages has people actually receiving the engine and toying with it):
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1181166


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Ran more tests yesterday until gusty winds and rain shut me down. Clearly no binds anywhere - it turns smoothly by hand. I pulled the boiler and the heat recovery lines are spaced out at three levels, so much less blockage than I feared. 

Tried it with the exhaust venting next to the stack as well as to the side. There is some induced draft from the exhaust, but only when running, and not consistent - most of the time it spits more condensate than steam - which tends to fall into the stack and into the fire pan.

A stack extension helps a great deal. Slipping a 12" section of 1/2" OD tubing on makes the fire increase visibly. Will try a 3.5" piece next which puts the engine height at 9" - equivalent to 15 ft. The exhaust line will probably need to vent down to the track with the extension in place. 


A small removable fire screen is necessary in front of the main firebox opening - the wooden pan handle is now charcoal. Bent the pan handle slightly to keep the end away from the flames. BAGRS has the same problem - air holes above the pan rim let the flames OUT as well as let air in. A sudden breeze can burn paint, fingers and wood engine frames. 


Fire pan centering appears to be critical. Putting three dimples in the pan rim keep it from touching the boiler and cutting off air flow from the base. A pan that was slightly smaller diameter, but slightly taller might be even better, but will be hard to keep centered. A thin layer of ceramic paper might be cut to fit the pan outline and let the pan slip into the centered hole. 

More tests due, weather permitting. Forecast is for winds.

Running this critter at dusk is most instructive - the fire becomes highly visible. The same applies to my other engines. That ignition flash on a butane fired engine is MUCH bigger than you might think.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, it runs on the bench fine, keeps up pressure - BUT when I put in on my track it will go for 2 feet and stop, then I restart it, goes another 2 feet and stops. The entire time I am doing this the blowoff valve is blowing off (even with the increased pressure, I dialed up the blow-off valve a little bit). Mixing denatured alcohol with the sterno to make it thin does make the fire a lot hotter!. 

I did run it on an air compressor for about 2 hours (adding oil along the way) to try to break in the engine, but even after all that it still does the same thing. Tonight I take the piston off and lap the side of it to make to perfectly smooth (only needs a little bit!), I hope this fixes the issue, if not - Then I am out of ideas for this engine... 

Hmm


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Wow! I have yet to get mine to open the safety. You may actually be feeding it too much pressure. My Regner Willi gets cranky at high pressure as the cylinder is forced off the valve plate. Max just spits tiny droplets of hot oil/water on my fingers as I try to spin her up. The most recent trials showed good speed until the free alcohol burned off. The fire dropped with just gel left. There were a few stalls when a puff of wind hit it, chilling things down.

I find no screw anywhere on my piston shaft - loose or otherwise. There is a setscrew on the eccentric which must be tight. And there is a packing gland nut on the cylinder end.

Mine seems to run best with low steam pressure and the throttle open 1.5 to 2 turns. No lifting off the valve plate. Essentially the same as running BAGRS, which has no steam valve at all - just a direct feed to the cylinder. Also had to tighten the screws that hold the cylinder assembly in place at one point - that can really mis-align the gears.


At present, I can easily and smoothly turn the flywheel by hand - cold with no steam or air pressure. No trace of binding anywhere.

I still think a slightly smaller diameter fire pan may improve the draft but my so far crude attempts are too unstable to judge.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

There is also a gel in the barbeque depts of home improvement stores for starting your grill.

Not sure if this is any better than sterno gel. It does come in a squirt bottle making the filling of the burner possibly easier.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

If the charcoal fire gel is petroleum based, not alcohol, then it is probably too hot.

Ran two more tests today. First run was with about 50% Sterno and remainder was 99% methanol. Run time was 15 minutes. Stopped once at about 9 minutes. Second run was also 50% Sterno, but remainder was dry denatured ethanol - more calories, but less vapor pressure. Ran for 12 minutes. Also stopped once at about 9 minutes. Speed was about 10% faster than the methanol run. Now, can I repeat the results? Both times the final stop was with no material left in the pan.

These tests were with the blue methanol based Sterno sold for restaurant use, not the purple red ethanol based sold at retail. The blue stuff is much cheaper, if you can use 72 cans. More important is the consistency. I add enough pure alcohol to get the gel to squirt easily from a ketchup bottle. The thicker the gel, the lower the flame during those final few minutes. Sometimes, it will not even finish burning.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

Ahh, then its my packing gland that's loose, I tighten it up and the piston gets too tight to slide, I loosen it and it runs freely, but its loose enough to spin with my fingers (will it back out and bind the engine eventually due to vibration lol), I will put it back to lower pressure (stock config) and see if that fixes it. I was just use to, more pressure = more power.(woke my coal burner up quite a bit, and it was a small pressure increase, easily in the safe limits of the boiler) 

My home depot didn't have the gel (I looked) ill check lowes next or maybe one of those kitchen stores (with the fondue sets) 

If not I will lap the piston side of the valves (have to get my terminology up the speed ) 

BTW, what is the proper psi that this engine runs at, I am not sure about the bars to psi conversion ratio (and the manual is semi confusing with their terminology) 


Andrew


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## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

1 bar = 14.5 PSI 

Steve


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Andrew,

I also found some of the Gel in Meijers Thrifty Acres. They may not be down in your area.

Since BBQ season is over in the northern states it may become harder to find in certain locals. One Home Depot said they wouldn't have any til next spring.

All three different kinds that I have found say they contain ethanol and other natural ingredients.

Jim Sanders has been using this stuff in his lococs with great sucess. Some has more "ash" remaining after a run then others.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

The main piston seal should be the o-ring or PTFE ring - not the packing gland. If the packing gland is required to stop steam leaks, then the main seal is not working and you actually have steam on BOTH sides of the piston face, losing a lot of power. My IP Jane was leaking at the packing nut like mad. Replaced the o-rings, reset the gland for snuggness but still free movement and no leak. Now it runs better than any engine I own. Another oscillator cylinder engine. If I interpret the Regner info correctly, they use a PTFE ring for the piston seal, not an o-ring - lower friction but PTFE flows even when cold. So when it eventually leaks, the repair is a lot harder. 


Also, remember that unless you have an unrestricted line from boiler to cylinders, the actual pressure at the cylinders matches boiler pressure only at stalled condition. Free running at reasonable loads, means there is a large pressure drop at the steam valve and smaller drops in the lines.


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

I just got a MAX this week, and I fired it for the first time today. First run was kind of sketchy, but that was to be expected. My second run was actually pretty good: 40 ml of water, purple sterno with about a tablespoon of pure boat stove alcohol stirred in. I pulled a two-car consist of LGB number 3041 two axle passenger cars for seven minutes on level track. I figure that's about all such a tiny engine could muster even after being broken in, so I really can't complain. I wish you luck with yours! One thing I learned with my Westminster Loco Works Cricket: on a poor steaming loco, run with your steam valve open as little as possible, not wider. It will help your boiler make workable pressure. I have never run on a rolling road, I prefer to run on my layout.


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## mack505 (Jan 2, 2008)

_"__Andrew,_

_I also found some of the Gel in Meijers Thrifty Acres. They may not be down in your area._

_Since BBQ season is over in the northern states it may become harder to find in certain locals. One Home Depot said they wouldn't have any til next spring._

_All three different kinds that I have found say they contain ethanol and other natural ingredients."_


Tell HD/Lowes you're looking for Pellet Stove Starter Gell. It's the same stuff, different bottle, different aisle.

They won't have the BBQ version in the fall, but stoves are just coming into season.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Ahah! Good suggestion. Ran Max this morning with the steam valve barely cracked - about 1/8 turn. Solid 14+ minute run. When he finally stopped, the fire was out.


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

Yay!!!


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By gwscheil on 20 Sep 2010 09:03 AM 
Ahah! Good suggestion. Ran Max this morning with the steam valve barely cracked - about 1/8 turn. Solid 14+ minute run. When he finally stopped, the fire was out. 

CONGRATS! 14 minutes on that tiny boiler is amazing! What have you decided on for fuel?


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Run times are not very repeatable - how full do I dare to fill the cup without getting a flaming spill? More free alcohol -ditto. Ethanol based fuel produces more calories, but the lower vapor pressure gives a lower flame. Mainly try to use the freshest, thus driest, fuel you can find. And remember that some water is already added to make the gel base work in Sterno or other branded fuels. A later run pulling a shorty flat car galloped at 20mph (scale) but stopped at about 7 minutes. Then got about another 5 minutes after uncoupling the load.


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

Hey George! How's your Max running? I've been pretty busy with mine and am really liking it. The first thing I noticed was that flames were licking up the sides of the boiler while it was being fired, not a big problem outdoors, but a HUGE one when I tried to run it on my indoor layout, so I converted it to butane, like my Westminster Loco Works Cricket. I added a bit of weight, a lead driver figurine (old Wimmer for LGB), and some brass lamps, and it really runs well! I have been getting consistent 12-plus minute runs with 18-20 axle loads. Here's a video I shot last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfVWrrSxi4M Hope you are having a good time with yours! -Stoney


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I guess I had a small problem with my Max, sent it back to Ken and he had Dave fix it right up (he swapped out the engine with another one, still trying to figure out whats going on with mine doh). I ran it on my backyard layout and it pushed 7 of those little LGB barrel cars(2 axle) around a track for about 12 minutes. Then I tried to run it on our new track at the park and the wind was killing the fire! (need to make some type of drop down wind screen in front of the cup). It does run great as long as the wind is not pushing the fire away from the bottom of the boiler. I will get a video of it soon for you guys. It doesn't run nearly as fast as stoney's engine (I bet its purely due to the butane burner! lol, Its hard for Sterno to keep up that type of btu's for steam.), but I am still really happy with it, getting crazy ideas with fuel sources (purpose of me buying this engine in the first place hehe), I wonder how I can get a draft going on it (prob have to close up the bottom and have the draft come up underneath).

Thanks Ken and Dave for fixing it so promptly! 

Andrew


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Max hasn't been run much after I backed off the steam valve to improve the running. Miserable weather and the local indoor track isn't set up at present. He did run at Marty's in the rain. Not a great run with wind and rain stealing heat, but OK. To stop the flame escapes, I made a crude wind screen from some SS mesh - anything with more than 20 / inch mesh and reasonably open works. Very coarse screen lets the fire through. To improve the draft, a stack extension helps noticeably. Incidentally, after studying MSDS sheets, it appears that nearly all gelled alcohol is only about 75% alcohol, 2% incombustible solids, which implies that the rest is water. Which explains why they run better with extra alky to thin the gel. The gel appears to be the same used for water retention in some potting soils. The residue after running gradually picks up water from the air and forms the same clear jelly. The water content is probably necessary to get the gel to form properly. 


Also, some of the fondue type fuels use isopropyl alcohol instead of methanol or ethanol. Methanol fuel will have a blue color, hot blue flame, low stink, but fewer calories. Ethanol fuel will be purple, smellier, and more calories. Isopropyl is an unknown color but will have highest calorie count, but most soot. Both ethanol and methanol versions can be obtained cheap from restaurant supply houses. Be aware that ethanol forms can go UPS, but methanol types must go motor freight or pay hazmat fees.


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

Oh my gosh, Andrew! I didn't realise that I had opened the regulator so far! Heheheh! I was too busy filming it to notice how fast it was running. I tried some pulling tests on it and I started getting wheelslip at 22 axles, and at 24, it just sat and spun, so a 20-axle load seems to be the limit. I do have an idea though... I'm looking in to getting the chain drive bits for a Regner Vincent and using them to couple the front axle to the rear one. It would be invisible from above and may increase my traction. I think that I have more than enough boiler pressure to compensate for the increased friction. I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Well, Max continues to have teething issues. I finally sat down this week and compared him to my BAGRS engine- both are similar in size and operation. OK, Max is direct geared, BAGRS is chain drive; but drive ratios are similar. Yet BAGRS runs long and strong compared to Max.


Max has a double acting cylinder ,BAGRS is only single acting

Stack heights are identical

Boiler diameters are nearly identical
Fuel is identical
Max has a steam throttle, BAGRS does not

Max has heat recovery rods in flue - BAGRS does not


All these say Max should have an edge in performance




Now for the differences in favor of BAGRS:

BAGRS has an insulated boiler - Max does not.
The cross sectional area of the BAGRS stack is double Max 
My BAGRS fuel pan is smaller diameter but slightly taller than Max 


I see no practical way to increase the stack area, but it does point to possible draft problems - my previous extension to the original stack helped noticeably but going any higher is going to cause stability/clearance problems. I was able to make a brief test with the smaller diameter pan. Stable blue flame with much less tendency to escape and air coming out the stack seems hotter. Ran 17 minutes but with intermittent gear binding. The drive gears and axles are all mounted to a metal frame, but the cylinder mount is fastened to wood which gets wet, which warps, and can shift the position of the main drive gear enough to jam or lose contact. The smaller pan lacks a handle which makes it much harder to maneuver, but shows promise if the weather will just warm. 

Possible improvement #2 is to insulate the boiler which should greatly reduce heat loss. Have a single layer of glass fiber insulation covering the boiler from just above the air holes to the top with an aluminum foil outer wrap. Waiting for a weather break to test. 
Of course, installing a butane burner would make either engine run like mad but I consider that cheating.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not get any binding on my Max


My max runs perfect as long as there is 0 wind, as soon as the fire gets pushed out from under the boiler, there goes the steam pressure, doh lol
Something to block the wind and have more of a draft up the center would be a good mod. 


We know its all a heat related issue due to stoneys Regner Max taking off like a jet plane hehe

I installed a sight glass on mine.
When my sterno runs out, it has plenty of water for a complete second run (I fill it up to the top of my sight glass, I need to measure how much water this is).

So I bet for runtime on sterno is containing that heat to where it is suppose to be!


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

OK. I HAD to try it even at the kitchen sink with insulation and the narrower fire pan. It took about 10 minutes to build pressure with cold water in the boiler. But it ran fine on rollers. Then I put on my woollies and moved it quickly to the outdoor track. It ran a few laps at 22F! Total run time was 13 minutes. The last few were back inside on rollers when it hit warp speed - gears spinning like mad. Came to a fairly fast winddown. Flame was out. This was with the lower firing blue Sterno and a little methanol. On ethyl it should have more heat. So tentative conclusion is insulate that boiler! And a smaller diameter fire pan helps too. Mine is a cut down copper pipe cap -id is about 1 5/8" which is maybe for 1.5" unthreaded pipe. Cut off to clear the opening with a bit to spare.


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## dampfmaschinenjoe1967 (Dec 21, 2010)

I will convert myMAX to butane fireing for outdoor use! It runs fine on gelled alcohol as long there´s no wind. For outdoor use I put a small bix burner(Ceramic burner) inside of the firebox : I would recommend their smallest one. I suppose it will be a stable outdoor runner than. 

cheers Joe


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## dampfmaschinenjoe1967 (Dec 21, 2010)

I will convert myMAX to butane fireing for outdoor use! It runs fine on gelled alcohol as long there´s no wind. For outdoor use I put a small bix burner(Ceramic burner) inside of the firebox : I would recommend their smallest one. I suppose it will be a stable outdoor runner than. 

cheers Joe


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## dampfmaschinenjoe1967 (Dec 21, 2010)

I will convert myMAX to butane fireing for outdoor use! It runs fine on gelled alcohol as long there´s no wind. For outdoor use I put a small bix burner(Ceramic burner) inside of the firebox : I would recommend their smallest one. I suppose it will be a stable outdoor runner than. 

cheers Joe


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

When you measure it, I think you'll find that it's about 45cc. That's my standard fill. I drain the boiler with a syringe, then add 45cc of water... any more and it may push water into the motor. By the way, I did couple my Max wheel sets with a chain drive, and it can pull an amazing 32 axles, but the water consumption is very high and the train is so long, that I really don't see it as a benefit. I'll be removing the extra gears when I get a chance.


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## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

I am confused - are there two different boilers being used on Max? My boiler holds 130 ml to the filler cap, and about 95 ml to the steam fitting. So, I have been filling it full, then withdrawing 60 ml, leaving 70 for the run - which typically uses about 30-35 ml. Never seen any sign of priming starting at 70ml. So I start at about the same water level as on Ida and most other steamers - 75% of capacity to avoid priming. The extra space is needed for the inevitable sloshing and increase in volume as the water boils (those bubbles do take up space). So 40-45 ml is a small starting load. If you start with more than you plan to boil off, more energy is needed to heat that water to boiling, but then running dry is very bad news so I prefer to keep a decent safety margin. And if the new boiler jacket really increases steam production, then more water will be needed. Certainly the first test looked good - moving with 10 degrees of frost was far better than ever before. It looked like a slow moving fog bank. Sorry no pictures, the engineer was freezing fast.


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## stoney (Sep 19, 2010)

Sorry, I wasn't very clear... My boiler also holds about 120cc, but it's 45cc to the top of the sight glass. that's what I meant. Like you, I can add about 30cc more (total: 75cc) and still raise steam w/o priming, but I tend to run with a fill of only 45cc because I have a small indoor layout (only 8x10) and three locos waiting for a turn... The Max is breaking in very well, and I have decided to keep the chain coupling on the axles but I need to fabricate a chain tensioner to mount in the little hole on the steel cross member on the underside. I kinda' got used to the extra tractive effort and lack of wheelspin! I'll post some pictures after I make it up and fit it! =)


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