# Neutralizer for vinegar?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

After reading the comments about using vinegar to clean tarnished brass track I decided to try it.

As with my experiments with KaBoom years ago it worked very well but left the brass with a pinkish hue.

With chemical cleaners previously it seemed to me that the brass tarnished again much quicker after a chemical cleaning.

This makes me think I need some sort of a neutralizer for the acidic action of the vinegar.

Any suggestions on what would be the best way to neutralize any residual chemical action from the acetic acid after using vinegar?

Jerry


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## Dennis Cherry (Feb 16, 2008)

You could try baking soda?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

A tea spoon of baking soda missed in 1/2 a cup of water neutralizes the acid in my stomach quite effectively.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Baking soda occurred to me but a quick check on the net turned up nothing to confirm or disprove it. I did not find anything about using vinegar to clean brass but it definitely did remove the tarnish. I have no aptitude for chemistry so I rely on others with more skill and knowledge than me.

Jerry


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Why bother with it. Just flush it good with water.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Baking soda (NaHCO3) is a weak base and should neutralize vinegar. It might take a fair amount. I think that household ammonia would be better. It is a little stronger. 

Does it get the pink patina instantly? If not just rinse the track thoroughly, otherwise you may need to play chemist.

Do you need to clean all surfaces, or just the top of the rail? I like the sides dark, shinny track just doesn't do it for me. If it was my track I would just clean the top of the rail with a green ScotchBrite pad and use a stiff steel wire brush to clean the ends where the rail joiner or clamp is to be located.

Chuck


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Mine also got pink. I believe this is the copper in the alloy. As it has no protection, you would expect it to oxidize quickly. Doesn't seem like a big deal too me and I ignore it. Plenty of more important things always to be addressed.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

It's all about personal preferences. In my case I like to keep everything looking and running as close to new as possible unless it involves a lot of work. My outside layouts are of stainless steel and my inside layouts are brass but I have little trouble with tarnish on that track.

The truth is I don't have anything more important to be addressed because the nice thing about the forums is that you can ask any question about anything and everyone can choose to respond or ignore anything - whatever their preference happens to be.

My goal is to get maximum use out of my layouts for as long as I am able but also to keep everything in as good a condition as possible so that when I'm gone the future owner will appreciate it.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Does it get the pink patina instantly? If not just rinse the track thoroughly, otherwise you may need to play chemist.
> 
> Do you need to clean all surfaces, or just the top of the rail?


 Hi Chuck,

Yes you get the pink patina pretty quickly. I have tried pressure washing the track and even running it through the dishwasher but for whatever reasons the track does seem to tarnish again quickly.

It has been some time since I last dealt with this situation. It happened to be used track that I had purchased. With Aristo track I could just take it out of the ties and use a buffing wheel to polish the rails but LGB track (crossings & turnouts) could not be removed from the ties.

Tarnished track to my mind seems to indicate potential conductivity problems.

It just happened that I saw vinegar being discussed and I had some old tarnished track that was well worth trying it on.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The pink is acid reacting to copper. 
My jeweler's pickle was a hot acid bath that always turned copper pink. It's on the surface, a burnish or polish and it's gone.
I used to etch metals and some acids will continue to react long after being 'neutralized' with bicarbonate of soda, not as intensely, but still reactive.
Baking soda was the fist aid remedy on hand.
A landlord once told me, upon seeing my brass spittoon, "I use clear paste wax to seal in the polish on my suit of armor." Perhaps you could wax the sides after cleaning, then you would only need clean the tops as necessary to run.
John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi John,

My main concern about the pink hue is not knowing its long term electrical characteristics (Is it a Tarnish? An Oxide? Corrosion? Acidic? Insulative or Conductive?).

After all, for those of us running track power, our layouts are little more than 24 volt DC (up to 20 amp) electrical circuits.

We can clean the surface all we want but it is the joiners or clamps (splices) that determine how many volts and amps are accessible to our trains (even with clean track). If the coach lights flicker (or track contacts spark) it is probably because of a dirty track surface but if our big and long trains slow down at the far end of our track it is probably the splices (joiners & clamps) that are failing.

Before I retired I used to sell wire & cable management products and conduct seminars on splicing & terminating cables of up to 25,000 volts. In some ways that was easier than a 24 VDC layout because the cables were always clean & shiny and the splices were always perfectly insulated from any air, moisture or contaminants and the connectors matched to the conductor size and type.

Wax might keep the connection clean and hopefully keep the air and moisture out but then it would probably (by its natural characteristics) be a good insulator. 

For some folks this may be an irrelevant discussion but from my viewpoint it has a lot to do with how we can minimize the long-term maintenance of our track powered layouts (whether they are indoors or outside).

Thanks,

Jerry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

As long as the rail tops are shinny, and you cleaned and added a conducting paste to the joins, you are good to go. I use LGB graphite paste.

Some of my track has been outside for 30+ years and the sided are black, but the trains still run on track power.

It is important to clean the tarnish off the ends where you put the rail joiners or clamps. The sides don't matter.

Chuck


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

chuck n said:


> Jerry
> 
> As long as the rail tops are shinny, and you cleaned and added a conducting paste to the joins, you are good to go. I use LGB graphite paste.
> 
> ...


Hi Chuck,

I too have used LGB Graphite Paste on every track joiner since I started my first layout years ago (not as long as you).

Perhaps a difference is that I often make an electrical contact with the brass track by drilling & tapping the side of the rails with an Aristo 2mm tap & drill set and then attaching the wires with 2mm terminals. For that I need clean track sides at the connection site.

Everyone tends to approach the hobby slightly differently but usually they have good reasons for why they do what they do.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

LOL. I gave up all those hard brain teasers for a simple method.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, since Jerry often uses simple track power with unmodified locos, I would submit his method is simpler than an R/C and battery conversion 

(not everyone using track power has issues)

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

As a follow up...

After leaving an LGB 30 degree crossover in vinegar overnight it cleaned well but had the pink hue I mentioned. 

Without realizing it I left a broken LGB R1 turnout in the vinegar for several more days and then discovered that instead of the pink hue the brass had become almost like new with little evidence of the pink hue. Also the first crossover felt slightly slimy but the newer turnout felt nice and clean. 

I have a half dozen or so unused but quite tarnished LGB R3 turnouts that I will probably leave in the vinegar for a week or so. I think the results will be very satisfactory but I will probably put them in the dishwasher just to be on the safe side because they will probably sit in their boxes for years.

Jerry


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Jerry:

I'd recommend not using the "drying" portion of your dishwasher cycle and maybe not placing the track on the bottom rack. Some (most) dishwashers have heating elements that are designed to heat the water and then sterilize and dry the load at completion.

I have read of others that have had melted ties. I have experienced damage myself though not for track in particular but other plastic items that couldn't take the heat.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

**** Habilis said:


> Jerry:
> 
> I'd recommend not using the "drying" portion of your dishwasher cycle and maybe not placing the track on the bottom rack. Some (most) dishwashers have heating elements that are designed to heat the water and then sterilize and dry the load at completion.
> 
> I have read of others that have had melted ties. I have experienced damage myself though not for track in particular but other plastic items that couldn't take the heat.


I agree completely.

Years ago my wife needed a new dishwasher but the old one worked pretty well so I moved it to the shop where I use it infrequently and it does a pretty good job. If I recall correctly it has a pre-heat cycle as well as the dry cycle. The preheat simply raises the temperature of the water and since I am using a water heater set mild enough to wash my hands I need some extra heat. Without the preheat the dishwasher does a very poor job.

I also only use the top rack so the only heat that hits the track is the hot water rather than the dry cycle heat.

Additionally I always take the track out of the dishwasher right after the wash cycle is complete (I use the pots & pans cycle if the track or whatever is particularly dirty).

I hardly ever use the dishwasher anymore since I replaced the brass outside track with stainless steel track. I will use it as a vinegar rinse but I won't need any heat for that (the hot tap water should be enough).

Even so I don't recommend a dishwasher - that's one of those things that I do at my own risk but don't recommend to others.

Your precautions and warnings are quite valid,

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The next batch to be done (prior to immersing in vinegar):










So far they have been in vinegar for 2 days. Some look like new but others still have a pinkish tint.

I will leave them until they all appear to be as close to their original color as possible.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I just took the turnouts out of the dishwasher which was set for water heat ; heat dry off; normal cycle.

It has now been five days since I put the turnouts in vinegar. As before, a few look like new but the rest still have a strong pinkish tint.

I will put them outside in the sun to dry completely tomorrow.

I did not expect to find any with the pink tint so that really surprised me.

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If one were to decide to use Baking Soda to Neutralize the Vinegar. How would you apply it?

Can it be dissolved in water then applied with a spray bottle? 

JJ


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

John

I would neutralize the acid (vinegar) in the in what ever is containing the track and vinegar. Then add the baking soda powder to the vinegar. It will start to fizz. When adding more baking soda there is no more fizz, you have neutralized it.

Chuck

It might help to determine the amount of baking soda you will need ahead of time, by doing a test run. Put a cup (8oz) of your vinegar in a larger glass or bowl and then start adding baking soda 1 table spoon at a time and stir until the fizzing stops. Repeat until there is no more fizz when adding a tablespoon of the powder. Keep track of the number of table spoons you used. Knowing the amount of vinegar and baking soda you used will let you determine for a given amount of vinegar how much baking soda you will need.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I finally took the last of the track out of the vinegar, put it though the dishwasher (set for water heat, heat dry off and normal cycle) and have placed it outside in the sun to get totally dry.

I was surprised in that some turnouts turned out looking close to new while other turnouts are still very pinkish.

I am satisfied that the dishwasher soap and water heat (and rinse cycles) will have disposed of any vinegar residue but I still suspect that the turnouts (which will sit in their boxes for months or years) will tarnish once again.

In the past I used to use KaBoom and a brush to remove the tarnish but since then KaBoom has changed their labeling to state that it is not recommended for Brass so I no longer use KaBoom.

I will post photos later - after the turnouts have dried in the sun,

Jerry


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

After working with a lot of copper and brass items that I brought back from Turkey, I would suggest that after you have it polished up and looking the way you want it (although I agree with other posts that the tarnished natural look, except if you want a worn top portion of the rail), then you might try Wahl's Clipper oil. They sell it at Walmart or you can sometimes get your barber to sell you a bottle. If you rub it on the rails (won't hurt the plastic ties), it should last 2-3 years without any tarnish build up. Might be easier than using the past wax that John uses...not as much elbow grease. Good luck.

Ed


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Here are the results after 5 days of soaking in vinegar:










I will probably try the Wahl's Clipper oil.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I ran a last batch of track thru the vinegar baths and dishwasher. They turned out pretty much the same.

It helped because some were LGB precut sections & now they not only look a lot better but I can read the markings (the difference is between little cut pieces of no value and catalog items with part numbers in resalable condition).

I an stil unable to tell why some track comes out pink while others of the same brand turn out with a real brass color.

Jerry


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

Jerry
My opinion is that the pink track has undergone de-zincification, or the selective leaching out of more galvanically active metals (zinc) leaving the less active metals (copper) behind. (brass is an alloy of copper and zinc). This is due to the attack of the acid in vinegar. Now of course one wonders why some track do it and others do not.
The probable answer is that despite being the same brand, the constituents of the brass changed at some point, making some track susceptible to loss of zinc while others are not. Varying the amount of zinc will also change the softness or hardness of brass. 
The leaching of the zinc will tend to ocurr with zinc concentrations greater then 15%. So perhaps more zinc (the cheaper metal) was added at some point. There may even be a small amount of lead in some brasses. 

So I either added clarity or confusion...

Regards

Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm thinking poor quality control in the making of the brass.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

A long time back, Aristo changed it's forumulation of brass track, and I do forget what was claimed, more copper than the competitor or something.

All came up because people noticed difference in how soft the rail was, and also that it changed.

So, beyond quality control, and variations between batches, there's the apparent intentional changes in formulation.

I have talked to Lewis, Charles Jr. and Fred from Accucraft and they all told me the same thing, they injection molded the ties and had some control there, but the rail was always subcontracted out, not Sanda Kan or Kader.

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Perhaps what surprised me the most was that the track & turnouts I photographed were all LGB brass yet clearly show that some turned pink while others have a much greater brass appearance. Sometimes the tarnish to brass appearance was almost instantaneous.

In the past when i occasionally polished track I found that LGB tended to stay a brass color while Aristo track tended to come out with a surprisingly nice gold color rather than the yellowish color it usually is.

Its not that important but I am curious. I will probably put some or all of the pink track back in the vinegar baths. There is little else I can do with that left over vinegar now anyway.

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry M, I'd consider what Jerry N said, perhaps you could be damaging the track by soaking so long.

Also not sure soaking in a weak acid for extended times is good for the plastic.

Greg


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