# is it dangerous to touch a track with 12-15 volt direct current?



## johnssleepingnow (Feb 27, 2010)

Is it dangerous to touch powered up track with 12-15 volt direct current? Or 18 volt AC?
Step on it barefoot? children? Or is it like low voltage for outdoor lighting, or door bells have a low current that just barely tingles?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

No, you'll be fine. On really hot days when you're sweating, you may notice some very slight tingling if touch both rails at the same time, but by and large, the voltages our trains run at are perfectly safe to touch while "live."


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Only if you are a frog. 

You can electrocute a frog if it touches both rails.... I know, because of finding fried frogs on the rails. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

So _that_ explains the new frog legs restaurant on your line... 

Later, 

K


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Kevin, 

I respectfully disagree. While at an open house of our club and museum I was putting my K27 on the track and laid my arm across the line designated for the new Revolution controlled engines and was quite surprised at the shock. The conditions were - close to 100 degrees, 99.9% humidity and I was running sweat. Not common conditions, but it smarted non the less. But it will NOT do human beings physical harm. 

Bob C.


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

My engineering professors always told us....you need at least 70 Volts and 1 amp to really pose a threat.


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

The bottom of the forearm is particularly sensitive, thus the shock by armorsmith. In general , the human body is too high of a resistance for current to flow well. Saline sweat increases conductivity very much. Frogs are slimy, hence they also have a problem. When humans get slimy........... 

jonathan/EMW


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Only if you are scared of any type current and your mined plays tricks. Don't think any one has died from DCC/AC current except frogs and snails. Later RJD


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Technically (remembering ohm's law) you have to put amps and the body's own resistance into the equation also. Some interesting reading here, pointing out the typical discuussion of 60Hz AC applications common in the US.

http://pchem.scs.uiuc.edu/pchemlab/electric.htm


A friend that runs MTS for his LGB I found that you get a bit of a zing if you put your hand on his track!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg:

Perhaps this is why we occasionally have short circuits in the frogs of our switches.

Chuck


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Our track voltage will not normally produce a dangerous shock however, be careful of jewelry around it. As an example laying a metal watch band across the track with a high current power supply could burn your arm.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Jonathan has it right, just like calculating a dropping resistor for a LED, it's the resistance of the circuit that determines how many amps actually flow. 

Dry skin, no problem. 

I believe it only takes about 100 to 150 milliamperes ACROSS the heart to kill someone. To get that current you have to have high voltage or low body resistance. 

Frogs are SOL at our track voltages if they put their back legs on one rail and the front ones on the other. 

A tingle through your arm does not go through your heart. 

Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

If you step on it barefoot, it will feel like pinpricks. 

If it's been raining and you step on it barefoot, you'll feel the tingle. 

If you have a big power supply and short it, it can be spectacular. 

Adobe must be updating or something 'cause my computer keeps stopping for a few seconds. Rudest program around.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

A wet dog, stepping on both tracks don't like it. Our Chocolate Lab was taking a dip in one of the ponds, came out and stepped on the live DCC rail. She let out a yip, and stayed out of the pond for a couple of weeks.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

I had no intention of indicating a life threatening event, but just to state that even I was surprised at level of shock from a 24VDC supply. It caught me completely off guard. I now keep a small piece of plasticized cardboard in my train box for just such an occasion. Living in Florida, sweaty days running at the club are inevitable. 

Bob C.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The title of the thread is: "is it dangerous to touch a track with 12-15 volt direct current?" 

So replies about it being dangerous are definitely appropriate, i.e. answering the question is OK last time I checked! 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

I was taught in a college class that a human was electrocuted at 42 VDC from a battery stack. That is the lowest known case. 

You can get a pretty good zing from a 9V battery on the tongue, but it is both wet, sensitive and the points of contact are very close.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Again, we are forgetting resistance and amps. In George's battery situation, we had a high amperage supply, not a chance at that point. 

In 60 Hz AC applications, two amps can damage and stop your heart, 20 milliamps can stop breathing. The average household breaker is set for 15-30 amps, so they are designed for system safety, not human safety, why we have GFCIs in wet areas. 

But resistance of the body also have an impact on the amperage , In George's example with the 9v and the tougne as there is less resistance on the wet tongue and why one can feel it with the lower voltage. 

In normal conditions, the human body has a resistance of around 100k ohms, but if you are wet in your surf trunks, it can be as low as 1,000 ohms. 

So, assume we have a household 120V supply. 

A = V/R 

120V / 100,000 ohms = 1 mA, close to the "perception" level 

120V / 1000 ohms, 120 mA, see the comment about 20 mA above and breathing. 

While converting from the impact of AC to DC is not simple math to do on a rainy Sunday, it shows why our wet feet, dogs and frogs find this stuff painful to dead at 24V DC and are dangerous as Greg points out. 

......but the bigger safety hazard is the 120/220 that we drag outside to supply things. 

(....and with that the battery and live steam folks will chime in shortly.....)


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

Do not let low voltage fool you all. 

You can do all the math you want and prove things through ohms Law and it sounds all good BUT the current running through the track can injure and or Kill you under the right conditions. I am not saying that any of you are right or wrong or even trying to argue if it is safe or not. 

I am saying that every one of you should respect and use electricity in the safest manor possible and never let your guard down, not for a single second. 

TRUST ME I know what I am talking about.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

It only takes microamps (around 50 microamps)to stop the heart, not amps or milliamps. 

So, 12 volts under the right conditions could stop a human heart, but I doubt you could do this via your RR. 
You would have to be soaking wet with a very conductive solution and at your heart at that. 
The standard in Europe was 30 volts for safety in electronic testing equipment. Any higher voltage required safety switches and isolation from the voltages over 30. 
US was 40 volts in the 70's and 80's, but now most comply with the European standards. 

So touch your track and enjoy those little tingles.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never heard of somebody dying by electrocution from 14.4v which is what my battery operated r/c trains run on. The controller runs on 9v. Considering the most amp draw that I will possibly ever generate is somewhere around 3 amps and I just can't get too excited about the whole thing....


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Extremely dangerous. 

Better send your trains to me.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

not nice Bruce


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NavyTech on 21 Mar 2010 01:07 PM 
Do not let low voltage fool you all. 

You can do all the math you want and prove things through ohms Law and it sounds all good BUT the current running through the track can injure and or Kill you under the right conditions. I am not saying that any of you are right or wrong or even trying to argue if it is safe or not. 

I am saying that every one of you should respect and use electricity in the safest manor possible and never let your guard down, not for a single second. 

TRUST ME I know what I am talking about. 

Yes, _current._ Thank you, someone gets it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Current through your heart. 

Regards, Greg


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## samevans (Jan 3, 2008)

Depends on the current. Manufacturers are unlikely to sell anything that will harm you as the risk of litigation is great so 'no' is the short answer. It is fair to say that carrier systems such as DCC may give you a more noticeable tingle than straight 12-15v . As folk have said it is a function of Volts & amps so it would stand to reason that at a given amperage you are more likely to get a tingle from 24v rather than 12v. 

As Navy guy says there are, never the less some dangers which apply not just to garden railways but any electric in the garden. Any MAINS supply to control boxes, water features, lighting, model lighting transformers etc MUST be waterproof and should be routed through an RCD in case of accidents. Supplies should be protected with an MCB at the point they are taken off the main supply Where mains cables are buried they should be armoured or in proper conduiting (CHECK YOUR ELECTRICAL REGULATIONS - THESE OUGHT TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED, OFTEN BY LAW). Make sure anyone else likely to work in the garden knows where the supply runs.


Control boxes and transformers should be fused or have cut-out protection. Equipment without proper fusing can start fires if it shorts (or at low voltages fry your sound card , though reputable suppliers will already have thought of this). Homemade lash-ups are more likely to suffer from this sort of thing, but it pays to check if you are not sure. Never replace a fuse with one at a higher rating, they are at that rating for a reason. Some doughnuts put in higher rated fuses if they get recurring fuse blowing. DO NOT do this. Trace the fault and rectify it. If it is a mains problem and you do not know what you are doing call an electrician who does.


As far as electrical faults with models are concerned tracing faults through the more advanced electronics on board are less easy to diagnose. If you are not experienced in this area go back to your dealer or find someone you KNOW knows how to deal with it. 


For most purposes you should be perfectly safe. As with many things in life however electricity should be treated with respect, and if you are not sure of what you are doing don't experiment.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Just a note...fuses/circuit breakers are important...more important though is installation of ground fault interrupters (GFIs). All outdoor power circuitry (110v) should be protected by a GFI. While fuses/circuit breakers will keep shorts from burning up your layout, it's the GFI that keeps YOU from burning up...or your dog...or you kid...or your cat. GFIs will trip the circuits off when only milliamps are shunted somewhere.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Depends on which 12V you have: 
12V from 2 lantern batteries: small shock 
12V from car battery: shock is notably less small


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## msimpson (Jan 5, 2009)

Clearly the solution is to give up electric for live steam -- nothing dangerous about flaming alcohol and gases, vessels under pressure, temperatures over 200 degress . . . 

Then, there is always clockwork Of course a broken mainspring lets a whole lot loose in a hurry. 

Better just to melt them all down. We have a facility here that will do that free of charge. just send you engines to me . . . 

Best regards, Mike


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## Daniel Peck (Mar 31, 2009)

.1-.2 amps can kill a person if the current goes thur the heart... Current kills not voltage! 
Electrical Trades Teacher.... I should know.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, wrong... the "shock", i.e. the current through your body will be the SAME, unless you have the resistance of a salamander 
Having the POTENTIAL for higher amperage does not FORCE more amps though a circuit.

The amperage in a circuit is determined by the resistance. 
Since it only takes a few milliamperes of current through your heart to kill you, having the potential for more current over a few milliamperes makes no difference in this instance. 
It's all controlled by the voltage and your electrical resistance and the point of application of the voltage. 
In many other places this misconception exists, many people worry about using a 20 amp supply with a 10 amp throttle, being afraid the the 20 amp supply will FORCE all 20 amps through the throttle and kill it.

Regards, Greg 


Posted By Tom Leaton on 22 Mar 2010 11:47 AM
Depends on which 12V you have:
12V from 2 lantern batteries: small shock
12V from car battery: shock is notably less small


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

That is good news. Maybe I got zapped because of the car's coil.

TUL


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Not to say that you cannot feel a tingle from 12v, but there should not be any more current "going through you". 

Now, on a car, the alternator is usually charging the battery. It can put some higher voltage "spikes" on the circuit as it is trying to charge the battery. 

I've never put an oscilloscope on a car battery when the alternator is charging, but I think this is possible. Alternators can, when unloaded, generate pretty darn high voltages. 

The problem with this theory would be that any high voltage spikes delivered to the battery would also probably affect the life of light bulbs and other electronics. 

Regards, Greg


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## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

It always amazes me to hear people justify how safe low voltage is and that you should not worry about it...... why in gods green earth would you touch across any voltage supply without shutting the power off any way? This should not even be up for discussion. Let the common dog kick in and shut it off and then touch it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I haven't seen a recent post where anyone is "justifying" the safety of low voltage. 

I have seen people trying to give accurate information about the danger. 

Yes, working on live circuits when you can turn them off is dumb. 

Regards, Greg


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

My understanding was that the question was asked to find whether it would be safe 'IF' the track is touched, not because he wants to touch it.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Mar 2010 04:59 PM 

Yes, working on live circuits when you can turn them off is dumb. 

Regards, Greg 

Yup, got a burned 7/16 open end wrench and a few years later a burn spot on my wedding band to prove it. 12V DC in both cases.


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## johnssleepingnow (Feb 27, 2010)

This is truly the place to ask the questions! I want to thank each of you for your time and imput. 

John Greene


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

John, 
on the practical side it would be good to put fuses between powerpack and track. that lessens any possible damage to living beings and material.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Ohm's Law

E = I * R
R = E / I
I = E / R

E : Electromotive force (measured in Volts)
I : Current (measured in Amps)
R : Resistance (measured in Ohms)


Stack Eight 1.5 Volt "penlight" batteries in series and you will have 12-Volts of electrical potential available. Put a 1000-Ohm resistance (load) across them and you will get 12/1000 ("E/R") Amps to flow = 0.012 Amps or 12 Milli-Amps. And you can get that to continue until the batteries use up all the chemicals inside that create free electrons on the negative side of the battery and holes in the chemical matrix on the positive side of the battery to suck electrons into it. With good batteries you can probably do this for several days before the batteries fail when the chemicals are all used up.

Replace the penlight batteries with an automobile battery and the bigger battery will be able to continue suppling current for months because it has more chemicals available to do so.

Now, do it again with a 0.1-Ohm (a tenth of an Ohm) resistor... the penlight batteries will be able to supply the calculated 120 Amps (I=E/R or 12 / 0.1 = 120 Amps) for all of about a nano-second and then the chemical reaction in the batteries will be unable to supply enough electrons (and the holes in the other end of the batteries to put them) fast enough to sustain the current and it will drop to just a few milli-Amps... But Ohms Law still prevails! Since the current drops to, say, 10 milli-Amps, something else has to change to meet the forumlae... so since the resistance is the fixed, the Voltage must change... and it will, per the forumla E=I*R, so the output Voltage of the batteries will become (0.010 Amps * 0.1 Ohms) 0.001 Volts (1 milli-Volt).

Again, replace that stack of penlight batteries with an automobile battery... the one that is advertised as being able to supply "700 cold cranking Amps"! Oops, that battery is quite capable of supplying 120 Amps for quite some time! Definitely long enough to heat a nice Craftsman open end wrench to cherry red and melt it... maybe even cause it to boil and explode! OUCH!

Now, what is the resistance of the human body... say from the right hand to the left hand... they don't know what each other are doing I suppose, but just for grins. lets say the resistance is 1,000,000 Ohms (1 Mega-Ohm). Now grab that stack of penlight batteries and see what the current flow is... I = E / R, thus 12 Volts divided by 1 Million Ohms = 0.000012 Amps (1.2 Micro-Amps)... and most of that will be through the skin and moisture ON the skin and you won't feel it.

Replace the stack of penlight batteries with the automotive battery and nothing changes... still 12 Volts, still 1 Mega-Ohm, still 1.2 Micro-Amps.

Now, stick a needle in each of your hands such that they penetrate a vein or artery, then attach the leads from either battery (penlights or car) to the needles. The Resistance of blood is considerably less than that of the skin. Assume for instance it is about 1000 Ohms given the distance from one arm to the other... now the current flow will be 0.012 Amps (12 Milli-Amps). In the human nervous system, electrical stimulation occurs in the 10's or 100's of micro-Amps (0.000010 to 0.000100 Amps)... thus you have an overpowering amount of current "inside" the muscle that is pumping that blood around the body and it will no longer receive the impulses from the nervous system and will cease to pump that blood. It is also possible that with such an overwhelming current flow, the heart might not get started again if and when the external current is disconnected. Medical Science has found that careful application of pulses of current to the heart muscle can SOMETIMES get it to again pay attention to the nervous system impulses and restart pumping blood... thus the "defribulator" device used by Doctors and EMTs.


Now, consider fusing of the output of the toy train power supply... if your trains draw 5 Amps to run then you want at least a power supply capable of supplying 5 (or more) Amps so the trains will run and you must fuse that supply at least at that amount so the trains will run without blowing the fuse. So you get a 10-Amp supply and put a 10-Amp fuse in it. Trains run just fine.

Now stick a screwdriver across the rails to short them out. The screwdriver has a resistance of, say, 0.1 Ohms and let's say the power supply is outputing 12-Volts, so, until the fuse blows, the power supply will be "asked" to supply 120 Amps! It will take a few milliseconds for the fuse to heat up and melt, thus disconnecting the power supply from the "shorted-by-the-screwdriver" rails and that poor power supply will be hurtin' trying to supply over 10 times what it is designed to do. Hopefully, the components in the supply do not heat up and melt before the fuse does and it is not harmed by the short circuit overcurrent situation.

Now, suppose you are working on the track and it has some needle like projections and you rest your hand on one of them and it penetrates the skin into a vein or artery. Suppose that the pain of being stuck causes you to lose your balance and you fall over and the other hand lands on another needle like projection on the other rail and it too penetrates the skin into a vein or artery. (FAT CHANCE you would have needle like projections on the rails or that you would get stuck by such or that it would hit a vein or artery, but just suppose!)

You now have the same situation as described above. Current flow is overwhelming the nervous system, but that 10 Amp fuse is just fat, dumb, and happy, conducting that small current while you suffocate from lack of oxygen since the blood is not flowing. i.e.: Fuse does NOT save you. The only way for a fuse to do any good would be for it to be a milli-Amp value fuse and when you put your train on the track the fuse would go poof and your train would not go.

The "Fuse" saves the power supply, not the human. Fuses in your house do not keep you from be electrocuted, they keep your house from burning down if there is a short circuit somewhere that causes too much current to flow and overheats a wire someplace.


GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interupter) compares the current flow in the "hot" lead to the current flow in the "Neutral" lead. If they are different, then it disconnects the electricity. This is good if you happen to get your body connected to the "Hot" lead and some other place that allows current to flow back to the electric company via some route other than the "Neutral"... such as the "Ground" lead or a pipe stuck in the ground or the puddle of water you are standing in while you use your electric drill that develops a short to the metal case.

Sit on a nice dry rubber pad to insulate yourself from all other "grounds" and grab the "Hot" lead of the wall socket and nothing will happen... no current will flow since there is no place for it to go. Touch the faucet handle at the same time and current will flow out the "Hot" lead, through you to the "Ground" via the water pipes. IF the GFCI is working properly it will detect that current is flowing out the "Hot" lead and NOT coming back on the "Neutral" lead and it will shut off the circuit. You MIGHT feel a very small shock and you MIGHT have a medical problem if you heart is affected by the sudden, short term, current flow, but GFCIs are designed to react in microseconds and HOPEFULLY that is such a short time that your heart will not be affected.

BUT... If, while you are holding onto the "Hot' lead you then grab the "Neutral" lead... well... the GFCI will not see a difference in the flow 'out' versus 'in' and it will allow current to flow and you are hurtin' a whole lot... I KNOW as I was in that situation once... it hurts a lot! You could possibly die from that situation. I didn't (I think) but many have.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 23 Mar 2010 11:31 AM 


Again, replace that stack of penlight batteries with an automobile battery... the one that is advertised as being able to supply "700 cold cranking Amps"! Oops, that battery is quite capable of supplying 120 Amps for quite some time! Definitely long enough to heat a nice Craftsman open end wrench to cherry red and melt it... maybe even cause it to boil and explode! OUCH!





See my post above, this was the exact situation on a 1960's Volvo when fumbling with the feed to the starter.....with the battery still connected, hit one side to the unibody.......like a stick welder!


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Ohms law, and the amount of current required to kill somebody aside, you're not going to get electrocuted from a 15v system. Neither are your grandkids.


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## Allan W. Miller (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing about Internet discussion forums, when a question is asked, is that you can always count on finding a whole lot of mumbo-jumbo mixed in with the sensible advice. The first response on page one was the correct one for Large Scale/garden railroading purposes.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm glad no one has followed up this post with one titled: "Is it dangerous if a large scale train runs over your foot?"


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

May I turn your attention to the topic of the thread once again? "Is it dangerous to touch a track with 12-15 volt direct current?" Nothing said about micro amps stopping a heart or about doctoral dissertations on electrical resistance! All that was asked was a simple yes or no, is it dangerous? In virtually every situation the answer would be "no, it's_ not_ dangerous." Are there exceptions to this statement? "Yes, see the previous five pages of posts but these exceptions are in theory and are _extremely_ unlikely to ever be experienced in real life!" With UL approved transformer power supplies there should be no appreciable risk! End of story.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

"Is it dangerous if a large scale train runs over your foot?"

No, but when you hit the end of a rail with a bare toe, you'll remember it for a day or two.

Oddly, track voltages don't discourage toads. On summer evenings at the Chicago Botanic, when things are starting to cool down, toads like to sit on the track 'cause the 2 by 6's under it say warm. This causes both the toad and the train crews distress when the train comes along.

Now we have a family of raccoons that consider the track their personal bathroom. I proposed a set of plugs where each night we can disconnect the power and connect a fence charger. No action has been taken on this suggestion. I'm glad I'm part of the evening put away crew, not the morning cleaning track crew


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If you don't like theoretical discussions... BOG OFF!


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Common practice for us amateur radio people: always work with one hand in your pocket. Avoid creating a path from one hand to the other, via your heart. 

jack


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing wrong with theoretical discussions (I certainly have engauged in them enough in the past!) but I think that the entire thread's question wasn't getting a definitive answer and due to the nature of the question and it's potential for causing concern, it seemed prudent to give one! By all means, please, theoretically discuss away! I'll "bog off" now.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Umm... if you got the answer in the first post, then you can stop reading, and not get irritated. 

This is a public forum, and the word forum begs discussion... and when this topic comes up, it always finally gravitates to the real data about what it takes to kill a human, so that opinions can be supported by facts. 

So, I think these "extended discussions" are both fun and informative, and as always, I am always free to not read something. 

Even better, I can stop reading some threads for a while and then come back later and they are just the same, like the coupler one... ha ha ha ha! 

That's what is cool about MLS, both informative and entertaining! 

Regards, Greg


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

Perfectly safe at 12~24 volts, will not kill you. 
If you can't get a satisfactory shock with your fingers, try your tongue ! 
Old leathery hands seem to be good insulators but I have experienced young children can get a small shock via their tender skin which did suprise me at the time. 

The good ol days!
Bring me another boy - This ones fried !









Hornby introduced the first electric train sets to its range in 1925. 
These first electric trains operated, somewhat hazardously, directly from mains power of anywhere between 100 and 250 volts. 
In 1929, the company developed a safer operating system whereby the mains voltage was transformed down to six volts. 










Early Hornby HV rheostat used a mains light bulb to help reduce voltage.


Andrew


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Andrew,

A friend of mine in Austin, Texas has a 1920s 3-rail reducer? (forgot what it is called). He said if it was hooked up wrong, full voltage would go to the tracks.

He keeps it on a top shelf away from the children.

I don't know how many people were killed by this device. 


Dave


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## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

I still remember 'holding' the track power clip of my Hornby set in my mouth as a 10 yr old. And forgetting to turn the controller down on occasion... 

Hmmm, never knew electricity tasted like that! Glad it wasn't your set up Andrew. 

Cheers 
Neil


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 Mar 2010 11:42 AM 

That's what is cool about MLS, both informative and entertaining! 


........ and a lot of wrong information in this thread.

Boggles the mind - the misconception some people have when it comes to basic electricity 101.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, that seems to always happen. But, it seems that the correct information always wins out, here and other threads. 

It is funny though sometimes, when people are insistent on information that cannot be traced back to fact, especially when about 10 seconds with google will give the answer.

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

And then someone invariably comes along to derail the thread with something like this: 

Neil, that's a great photo in your sig! Got a web site with more? 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, too bad we don't have a moderator suggesting using a private message instead of derailing a thread? Oh, it was a moderator. 

Jeeze Kevin 

SMFH 

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, it was a joke. 

Later, 

K


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