# Help me help myself



## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Hello!
Just signed up as I ran across this forum today. I am researching what to do for my Garden railroad, as I just recently decided (again - I will save you my meandering through the thought process!) that is what I want to do and in Large scale. 

My help request is related to *which* Large scale. A bit of background and my potential goals:

I am mostly interested in steam and probably narrow gauge although I would not rule out standard gauge. My conundrum comes from not liking the huge size of the 1:20.3 scale equipment nor am I sure I really have a good yard to get a decent layout to achieve what I would like, but I could envision a pretty decent sized point to point railroad with the potential for some type of loop/turn at the ends for some display of continuous running.

My goal is to be able to run relatively realistic operations on a fiction railroad that is modeled after one or more prototypes. I aim to convert my locos and other devices to battery and remote control, use an android/ios device or pc to control the layout and control the locos via wireless network (bluetooth or wifi - preferrably the latter).

I am also a technical person not afraid of electricity, electronics, software, programming, etc. I would probably need to learn a LOT about modeling though, which is fine.

Initially the track cost scared me away from 45mm track, but as I have found out track just costs money (so I might lay my own track). I have run a few trains around the track recently, upgraded and repaired a Big Hauler 4-6-0, and bought and sold quite a few train items. Yes, I need to do this as cheaply as possible. No way I can see springing for Marklin 1 Gauge (but maybe Maxi!)

So some questions, which I warn you may lead to more!

1. I do not prefer the super size of the Bachmann 4-6-0 even though it is only 1:22.5 - yes? So I am really balking at 1:20.3. What turn radius do all of these things need? I am guessing larger than radius 1 (4ft. yes?). That in itself might put a damper on what I select go with.

2. In looking at the smaller (standard gauge-ish) scales and see a LOT of Aristocraft stuff for sale on eBay. Should I stay away from that stuff since they are out of business and polknextgeneration never seemed to go anywhere? Or should I snap up as much as I can get now and go with 1:29/Aristo? But same turn radius question, I read somewhere that the Aristo stuff needs larger turn radius?

3. I might not mind LGB, but how do these look with the Bachmann 4-6-0s (which I understand are actually 1:22.5 along with a couple others - 2-4-2 Lyn?)? Are all their US steam locos the nominal, rubberband-ish 1:22.5?

4. I understand that there are a couple-three bachmann locos that are 1:22.5. The 4-6-0s being the main one, but also the 2-4-2 Lyn? Are there others? Are all of the Big Haulers 1:22.5? I have seen some comments that say the Big Hauler line should be avoided and buy only Spectrum?

5. What if I decide to go LGB and add Bachmann 1:20.3 later? Would they look out of whack later?

I know this is a lot, I hope the people here can help me with information, discussion, opinions, and facts. It would be much appreciated!

Thx!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Starting at the fundamental question scale, if you want steam, and 1:20.3 ng is too big... I suggest you decide on standard gauge.

Now 1:32 or 1:29? Depends on your budget. With an unlimited budget, and your aversion to stuff too large, 1:32 would be perfect, a number of different locos available, perfect coordination to scale and track gauge, and high quality stuff available, as well as the MTH line.

If this is too rich, then consider 1:29, there is really a wealth available, but the Aristo drive mechanisms will need attention to make them reliable, but this CAN be done.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thank you. I would not quite say it is an aversion, just an OMG those are huge! (OK, no funny stuff!). I can probably get over it. It is probably just a preconception of what I have always thought of model trains. I could especially get over it if the LGB and Bachmann stuff would be a better choice due to reliability and parts.

What kind of work do the Aristocraft locomotives need?


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

and no, as alluded to my budget is just not unlimited. Otherwise those Marklin 1 Gauge models are gorgeous!

I should also add I would like to be able to invite friends that are not model railroaders to operate on the railroad as well (and not destroy it, so some amount of robustness is desired) and have them come away with a feeling of having done so with a modicum of realism. Of course I would like the same for myself.


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## jdmitchell (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome aboard. I would suggest that you look for a club in your area. You can also find other G gaugers in your area. I'm a member of Houston Area G Gaugers in Houston, TX. I have been a member of other clubs in other areas. With a club or someone else in the hobby you can learn a lot with out spending money on mistakes. I would like to invite you to our web site.
www.houstonagg.com 
Remember it's a hobby so sit back and have fun.

Jim


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are looking for smaller equipment to run there are some items available as follows.
But for battery operations, I would look for locos larger than what I am listing as batteries plus receivers can take up a lot of space that these little engines do not have and if batteries are in a training car it would be all these engines could pull without stripping the gears.

While LGB may be on the higher side of cost, (many of these can be found on E-bay for a lot less $$ than the new ones) they do make some nice small trains for 45mm track.
The Field Rail Road (FRR for short) have small engines as this is 2 foot guage on 45mm track.
There is the chloe, olmana, even a christmas chloe. Passenger cars and freight cars are available.
These engines are on the weak side and should not pull more than 3 of these small cars.

All LGB products run on a 4 foot diameter (1200mm) circle of track. 2 axle engines will run on as little as 29 inch circle.

Aristo and USA trains are mostly 1/29 scale and some Piko is 1/32 scale.

HLW (Hartland locomotive works) has a line of short kit cars and are made in the USA.

In my opinion the best small engine for pulling power and weight VS size for American steam is the Forney by LGB, and I prefer the older ones as they have lead weight.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Scale can sometimes be deceiving. The Davenport "critter" in this photo is 1:20.3 and the beer can tank car is 1:29. The locomotive was so diminutive that it is dwarfed by a car from a smaller scale.










HLW locomotives are very good runners, but are not highly detailed. Still, you can add detail from aftermarket suppliers. Their 4-4-0 types are really nice. Regrettably, I do not have a photo of mine handy. The Big John (Dunkirk geared) is a brute, and can probably pull wallpaper off the walls.










Their Forney type is pretty. 










They have a nice selection of streetcars and interurbans.




























Just a few photos for ideas.

Have fun,
David Meashey


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Wants:
Yes: Narrow gauge models.
No: 1/20.3 scale (models are too big)
No: Standard Gauge. (if narrow gauge is preferred, and SG models are on the larger side.)

Results:
No: Bachmann 1/20.3 scale. (narrow gauge)
No: USA Trains 1/29 scale. (standard gauge)
No: Aristocraft 1/29 scale. (standard gauge)
No: MTH 1/32 scale. (standard gauge)

Whats left? quite a bit actually! 

Yes: USA Trains "American Series" 1/24 scale.
Yes: Aristocraft "Classic Series" 1/24 scale.
Yes: many LGB "American outline" steam locos and rolling stock. 1/22.5 scale-ish.
Yes: Piko "American" outline steam locos and rolling stock. 1/22.5 to 1/24 scale-ish.
Yes: Bachmann 1/22.5-ish scale rolling stock.
Yes: Pretty much anything by HLW, Hartland Locomotive Works. locos and rolling stock. 1/24 scale.

Most of the above are "American narrow gauge outline" models.
Added bonus: USA Trains "American Series", and all HLW, are made in the USA.

Some models that fit:

LGB mogul, a classic:
http://www.ross-crain.com/rr_roster/CS5s.jpg

LGB Olomana:
http://marketplace-images.trainzauctions.com/361cc3dae646416b9e20eee3e0f6c5338c925071-h4_003.jpg

LGB Porter:
http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/02/92/45/lgb_to10.jpg

LGB Chloe:
http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/349/719_l.jpg
(*very* small locomotive.)

LGB Forney:
http://marketplace-images.trainzauctions.com/c140d7b62737fc6f2884c1e1b927e2d04d1e36d8-c14_003.jpg

(LGB has more smaller steam, although most of the rest are Europern)

Piko "American locomotives"
http://www.piko-america.com/American-Locomotives.html

Those Piko locos are sort-of "free-lance standard gauge"..They have more of a "standard gauge outline" to them, not narrow gauge, but they are smallish, and would fit with the rest of the locos and rolling stock on this list..although they look a bit more "1920's standard gauge" rather than "late 19th century narrow gauge", which most of the other steam locos represent.

HLW steam locomotives:
http://www.h-l-w.com/steam.html

Some Bachmann engines are on the smaller size..
even though they are *technically* 1/20.3, they are models of smaller prototypes, so they can fit in with the 1/22.5-ish and 1/24 scale rolling stock:

Bachmann Spectrum mogul:
http://files.ctctcdn.com/ab712b4b001/7f582919-26ab-4e63-a29a-738b4bcacdb8.jpg

Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0:
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa307/vaderdentist/3549_l.jpg

The mogul was recently upgraded, the older models are now cheap! I have seen them for $150 lately..although those do have the older drivetrain with the plastic main gear, which easily breaks..but can be fixed. newest version has a brass gear, but is a lot more expensive.

Bachmann "industrial" or "indie" mogul:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/29n2/29n2-28.jpg

I would only consider those three Bachmann locos, the rest are too large for this scenerio.

Rolling stock:

USA trains "american series" reefers and boxcars:
http://tinyurl.com/kvos8ze

Bachmann 1/22.5-ish scale "wood" boxcars, and other 1/22.5-ish rolling stock:
http://marketplace-images.trainzauctions.com/dec25d9104f5d62955a90c76bbd8f9e50f25de8b-m39_003.jpg

Aristocraft "classic series" 1/24 scale rolling stock:
http://bid.auctionbymayo.com/images/lot/6156/6156438_0.jpg
(All Aristocraft is out of production, but common on ebay)

(Basically, you want models of wood cars, not models of steel cars.)

Bachmann 1/22.5-ish scale passenger cars:
http://images.collector-modeltrains.com/MT-0419918_dd08f7d8-5142-11e1-bd41-e091f5975601_00.jpg

Piko "American passenger cars"
http://www.piko-america.com/American-Passenger-Cars.html
these are fairly new, Piko is getting into American narrow gauge.

And there are some more..
but those ideas should get you going!


Scot


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I can add to Scot's analysis (which is very thorough) that all the Bachmann Big Haulers are nominally 1:22.5 and most Bachmann Spectrum models are 1:20.3 and therefore can be quite large. [Scot - I don't believe Bachmann ever made any 1:24 models.] The J&S coaches, while sold as 1:22.5, are actually compressed and too short, so you could run them on a 1:24 layout!
The Spectrum line is better engineered, and therefore more expensive. The 2-4-2 "Lyn" was re-engineered recently, so avoid the originals. It's 1:22.5, despite being originally sold as a Spectrum model.

I agree with the rest. Dave makes a compelling argument for the Hartland line if you don't want an accurately scaled narrow gauge line. Lots of the LGB stuff is quite small though, as noted, the scale can be a bit rubbery.

Your statement that you want a layout "modeled after one or more prototypes" is where it gets tricky. If you stick with 45mm (gauge 1 or G-gauge) track, then a narrow gauge layout should be 1:20.3 scale.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Pete, I think you are right about Bachmann..I will edit my post.
although, like LGB, I dont think the Bachmann stuff has ever been an accurate and exact 1/22.5 scale! 
I like "1/22.5-ish"..I will use that.

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

He did not say no on SG Scot:

"I am mostly interested in steam and probably narrow gauge although I would not rule out standard gauge."

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx guys!

Dave,
that critter and tank car are quite telling actually, they do look good. probably good enough for me; but a question: is the door and a figure to go into the cab the correct size for the 'accessroies' on the tank car? they do look pretty good but if i was suddenly to turn anal would it be OK? i don't know, that is why i am asking.

Yes I have seen the HLW stuff, i *really* like the Big John. But as I alluded to I am on the cheap side and they are out of my price range. maybe one day I will find a used one I can afford. But depending upon how this whole research and investigation ends up I might need to change what I am doing or just drop the dream.

Scot,
No, I am not against standard gauge. Hence my consideration of Aristocraft 1:29 or Marklin Maxi.

But your input there is awesome! That definitely gives me a lot of information. VERY much appreciated for the time you took to write all that.

All,
so this gives me a fair bit of data to ponder, but some unanswered/additional questions.

1. Aristocraft: should I care that they are now defunct? how is their quality vs. things that are more readily available, specifically Bachmann Big Hauler (Spectrum is like Hartland++ regarding affordability). If I go this way will I be 'stranded'? Can anyone tell me if the Marklin Maxi line would fit relatively well with Artisto?

2. Bachmann Big Hauler series: they seem to have enough of the types of loco's I am looking for. Are there really serious issues with these? or can I at least get started and either upgrade to keep or move on to more quality stuff without stranding other stuff on my layout (other rolling stock, building I make or buy, etc.)?

3. LGB: It also seems there is a fair bit of these available in the types I am looking for. By reputation they are generally better quality? Or not necessarily with the American small steam stuff? Easy enough to retrofit with battery and RC (might depend upon system I choose)?

4. For operations I feel, from my reading, that couplers are critical. Do any of these brands above come with generally functional couplers for operations (i.e. easy enough to couple/uncouple) or can i retrofit? I think the LGB stuff comes with the good ole hook and loop? Can they be retroed with knuckle? My trains will be short, I do not envision more than 5 or so cars and a loco so I can probably get away with couplers on the trucks but I would like them on the car body if I can get away with it (on the sharp curves).

5. Speaking of sharp curves, so the brands/locos I am targeting here run on the 4' radius curves? that could help me decide/narrow down the selection. I do know and understand about the looks as well, but I do plan to stick with smaller locos and cars.

In general I am also not necessarily opposed to mixing European and US equipment. Perhaps sacrilege to some, but I can always have a 'fantasy island/country' that purchased equipment from both sides of the pond. I understand some did actually. Again my goal is more along the lines of simulating the operational feel of a railroad, not the exact nuts and bolts; I do however want it fairly plausible.

Thank you again!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Real people probably had to stoop a bit to enter the cab of the real Davenport switcher. I just managed to fit a TrainLine seated 1:22.5 figure into the engineer's seat. (As someone else told me, "Remember, real people can stoop and bend; plastic figures cannot."). I barely have any 1:29 scale. Whether the tank car would look wrong if you suddenly became "anal" about scale is totally subjective - I cannot answer it for you. 

I keep that tank car because it is in my old high school's colors, orange and black. I have had three Hooker Chemical tank cars: one in American Flyer S gauge, one in HO, and the one in 1:29 by USA. 
Due to its weight and detail, the 1:29 car is my "favorite Hooker."

'Nuff said,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dave,
yep I concur. and as you mentioned and good thing to address: I know this is all my decision and judgement. I definitely would not (could not) hold anyone else liable for my decisions/selections. I do appreciate all the input from everyone be it opinion, fact, subjective or objective observation! Everything is weighed by me to ultimately make my decisions.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

1. there's enough used Aristo around, and the likelihood that Bachmann will make some of the Aristo locos to not worry. Aristo 1:29, Marklin 1:32, they will not look good together in most cases. Some people will say it's fine, but the majority disagree, and with your statements about noticing the difference between 1:22 and 1:20, I would say do NOT mix 1:29 and 1:32.

2. The big hauler is an entry level loco, but the very latest version has the major problem fixed, the plastic gear that always breaks has been replaced with a metal gear. But again, this is that weird scale that is not matched by many locos.

3. LGB is great quality, limited in selection, not great pullers, and a weird scale. 

4. Buy Kadees... no question. Truck mount ok for short trains, body mounts look and perform better, but on curves under 4' radius stay truck mount.

5. OUCH... you need to rethink your basic criteria... from steam to SMALL steam and SMALL diesels. If scale means a lot, maybe MTH in 1:32, although they are not always in production of everything, but they can run on tight curves. And of course LGB will all run on these curves, but then scale and proportion are out the window.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Greg,
Thx! much appreciated.

One manufacturer I might consider I missed. Piko. where do they fall for their American locos? I had understood most are about 1:29, but their recent mogul is about 1:22.5 (to compete with the LGB mogul?)?

But then what about Marklin MAXI as well? seems to be lacking detail but that can be added. I am just not sure if there is enough selection.

maybe 1:22.5 is an odd scale, but it seems that there is enough stuff. 1:29 is probably fine but I am concerned about being stranded.

What about turn radius for Aristocraft/REA stuff?

By SMALL I mean small prototype, 4 driver wheels for the most part, maybe a mogul. I.e. Porters and other 0-4-0s, 4-4-0, 2-6-0, Forneys (maybe), and 2-4-2s. Not SMALL in real physical dimensions. And I really do want steam, I have been considering a small critter type as an early internal combustion, but not set on it. And as stated my goal is more the proper 'feel' rather than exacting appearance - but also some amount of plausibility and realistic appearance does matter; I just have to figure out how much.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My opinion is that they have limited offerings, middle of the road quality, but seem to be improving, putting DCC in everything. I'm not excited about their locos. I'm a steam guy, so meat and potatoes for me is Mikados and Pacifics, and then go on to more fun stuff like Hudsons, Northerns, etc. Piko seems more aimed at filling the LGB market.

Marklin Maxi is 1:32, so you kind of have to switch gears, and it's nicely made but hardly any USA prototypes.

1:22.5 is odd... and while 1:29 seems odd, the narrower gauge does not jump out at you as "off"...

1:29 will NOT leave you stranded.. when I started I agonized between 1:32 and 1:29.... coming from HO and N, even CONSIDERING a mess like 1:29 sounded crazy.

Then I got some of each and put them on the ground... 1:32 just was too small on the ground for me, the 1:29 was way nicer... If I was a narrow gauge guy, running the 1:20.3 would be even nicer, and theoretically the sharper curves (in scale) would be closer to prototype.

For me, my stuff had to be on the ground, and I wanted big steam (I have a 2-8-8-2, a 2-10-2, a 4-8-4 northern, a Hudson, several Mikados, Consolidations and Pacifics)... so I'm happy with the decision I made, I have a nice roster of locos in steam. It would be pretty expensive to match this in 1:32.

If I had an elevated layout, and I mean closer to eye lever, not knees, 1:32 would be my scale, but it will be more expensive. There's no inexpensive 1:32 stuff.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Greg. more good insight. I would say I prefer the small steam as opposed to your bug steam. especially since I want to do logging and/or mining short line. that fits with the tight curves I can achieve in my yard.

maybe I should just suck it up and run 1:20.3, but then i think those are mostly all Spectrum and relatively expensive?

i think this is the second time you have mentioned that 1:22.5 is odd. what is it that makes it jump out to you as odd? i get it, it seems arbitrarily chosen as opposed to 1:20.3. it is *relatively* close to NG, could be a poor mans Cape Gauge? it is really close to 45mm (2mm or so off), but in the end it could just *represent* NG (kinda like On30 does for O scale). seems to be relatively good support for it.

thx for your insight and thoughts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Bachmann products are nicely detailed, and reasonably priced (do not look at the list price, see the "street price" on dealer sites).

Yes 1:22 is close to representing a real gauge, more like strange here in the US and also not widely supported in locomotives with accurate proportions. I know that LGB is often presented as 1:22, but in the American prototypes, it's not consistent, and often not consistent on a single loco.

1:20.3 has more "effort" at staying in scale and prototype fidelity, in my opinion.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

understood and good point. i need to see if I can find some to compare looks and feel. i guess another good advantage to the Bachmann locos is the warranty - they do offer the limited lifetime on G scale too, yes?

would anyone say that the Big Haulers are 22.5 or 20.3? are they worth looking at or should i look at Spectrum and bargains on those? i am looking at eBay and I see they are $200 plus, and those are opening costs. to me that is a lot, but maybe i need to reconsider what i want to do or even if i want to do this at all for the cost.

for Big Hauler i see anything from $50 and up. much more in the range of what i would like, although maybe not so good in the long run? and then there is the question of what scale these really are.

REA/Aristocraft seem to start around $100 or so, also still within the realm of what I find affordable. I still do not know what the turn radius on these are though.

i guess I need to understand what fits for me.

steam (smaller prototype/plausible models, mining/logging/quarry)
sharp curves
very affordable
ability to install battery and RC (and sound if not already present)
possibly install modern smoke generator (with fan, preferrably one that can puff with drivers)
not too fragile

did I miss anything i have already written. this seems worse than O, but i think if i can figure something out i will be satisfied, even if the decision is this hobby is too expensive for me. one note along that point, i do not mind putting in time and effort for modifications, etc.


LGB I can find starting around $50.

Price is a huge driving factor for me. I do know I need more than just locomotives as well. i also want battery and RC, so there are those costs on top of the loco. maybe I am just too cheap for this!


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

The local shop has one of the old Kalamazoo 4-4-0s in the black DRGW colors. Tender is totaly empty, so plenty of room for battery and RC. It used to be mine and I had it running on a RC car battery with a simple on/off switch and it would run for hours pulling a short train. Its set up for track power again now, but easy to convert back to battery power. It can be had for a really good price, much much less than the Hartand version. I want to say he has $150 on it but open to offers. He also has a few Kalamazoo freight cars, all 1:24th scale roughly. He is a great guy to deal with and will make you a great deal on it or other stuff. Shop is Zionsville Train Depot here in Indiana. I am cheap as well, but went the UK route with 1:19 modeling on 45mm track. Motive power is a live steam engine, that was the only expensive part beyond the track. Cheers Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Mike. I have seen a couple other Kalamazoos as well. Roughly what scale are they?

EDIT: Wow, that store's site is really hard to search/find stuff, and slow.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Big Hauler 4-6-0 is 1:22.5, and quite accurate to the prototype in that scale. It is a large narrow gauge locomotive, so it actually works well on a 1:20.3 railroad as well. A purist would likely add a slightly wider cab and taller stack, but there was a tremendous amount of variation in sizes of narrow gauge equipment, so it's plausible "as is." 

The thing with the 4-6-0 is that you want to get one that's 5th or 6th generation. The 5th generation (commonly referred to as the "Anniversary" version or "Annie,") has a very robust drive, and has been the standard chassis for that locomotive since 2000, I believe. The 6th generation version just came out in the past year or two, and its only real "improvement" is a brass gearbox instead of plastic. The suspension on the front truck is also altered. Likely anything you find New In Box at a retailer will be 5th or 6th generation. Ebay will be hit-or-miss. Look for metal running gear. I'm pretty sure the only locos with metal running gear are 5th and 6th-generation versions. 

Looking at your list of requirements for models, I'd suggest starting with the LGB mogul. You can find them for anywhere from $200 - $1200, depending on which version and how "collectible" the seller thinks it is. Typically they average in the $300 - $400 range. It's a small locomotive whose overall proportions are perfect for either 1:22.5 or 1:20.3. It will fit around a 2' radius (4' diameter) curve, though I'd always recommend going wider if at all possible. The boiler is of a fair size, so you can fit a fan-driven smoke unit inside if you want to play around with that. The tender is large enough for batteries, electronics, and speaker, or you can put the speaker in the boiler. It's also a time-proven drive. The loco was first introduced in the mid 1980s, and those early locos are still running strong for many folks, including me. 

Also in that genre, the Bachmann Shay (available in 2- and 3-truck varieties) and Climax are reliable runners. (Make sure the Shay has the latest die-cast trucks. The 3-truck version will. The 2-truck may or may not.) The Climax has two versions as well. I don't think I've heard of any "typical" issues with the older version, but the newer version has updated trucks and electronics. The Climax will be harder to fit batteries into, but certainly doable. The Shays will offer no trouble with regard to space needed. Bachmann also made a Heisler, but they're rarer than hens' teeth. I sold mine a few years ago, but it ran very reliably for me. 

Both LGB and Bachmann make 0-4-0 Porters of various styles. The LGB one can be found new for as little as $150. It's on the 1:20.3 end of the scale spectrum, but it's a very small locomotive, so it plays well with 1:22 stuff as well. Being so small, it's harder to fit batteries and R/C, but it also doesn't draw that much current, so you can get away with using the smaller components meant for HO scale. 

Hartland Locomotive Works makes reliable stuff as well. They're a little less "scale" than other manufacturers, but they definitely meet the "not too fragile" part of your requirements. They'll all fit around a 2' radius curve. 

Hope that helps.

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

K - yes that helps. I also definitely do not mind older stuff since i plan to retrofit sound, rc and battery. older stuff might even be cheaper.

what scale is the Hartland stuff, it if had one?

anyone know what the Kalamazoo scale is? or did they vary?


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

1:24........supposedly....


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Correct Fred, roughy 1:24th scale on Kalamazoo and Hartland. Most of Hartlands trains have thier roots in the old Kalamazoo line, with a little of the old Delton line mixed in. The old Aristocraft company got the rest of the old Delton trains when that company folded. The 4-4-0 does but has been massively upgraded over the years. Only issue on the older Kalamazoo is the axle drive gears can spit from age, however spare parts are as close as a phone call to Phil Jensen at Hartand, even for the old Kalamazoo engines. I find that older Kalamazoo, Lionel Large Scale, and the Bachmann Big Haulers are the cheapest large scale. Just do not use the older Bachmann steel track outdoors, nor the Lionel. For track, go with LGB, USA, Aristocraft or the new brass rail Bachmann. Track can be found second hand if your patient. I haven't paid over $4 a foot for LGB brand track that was decent second hand for my outdoor layout. Now I did splurge and pay more for clean and shiny LGB track for our indoor overhead layout. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

ugh, another different scale! these manufacturers kill me!

I do not think the Lionel Large Scale fits what I want to do at all. The decent looking locos all seem to be big steam, and the others are far more toy like than LGB.

I think my choices are down to Bachmann Big Hauler and select LGB or Aristocraft. I could ease into 1:20.3 later with some cab rebuilds if I want.

Can anyone tell me turn radius on the Aristo small steam stuff? It looks like Bachmann Big Hauler and LGB will be fine on 4' radius.

anyone think I am nuts? 

Mike,
yeah well aware of track. the cost of track is what scared me away from large scale last summer (yeah - I know about Bachmann track). I am probably going to lay my on track with aluminum rails. Fortunately I have a buddy that has an excess of track that he will let me borrow (maybe sell to me eventually if I can afford it) to get a start on a stage 1.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Well, of course you're nuts. You're into large scale trains.  Fortunately, you're in good company. 

The Aristo small steam stuff will run on a 2' radius (4' diameter). If you're looking at 4' radius (8' diameter) then you should be fine with all but the really big stuff. I forgot about mentioning the Aristo C-16. The latest version with the drive belt is a good-running loco. It's 1:24, and it's a model of a small prototype, so it's going to be dwarfed by something like the LGB Mogul (which is why, I think, it never really took off in popularity when it first came out "back in the day.") I've owned at least one of every generation of the C-16, from the first Delton version to the latest Aristo version. The latest Aristo version is the only one still running.

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

K,
yes, i know that but you have properly confirmed my (in)sanity status. 

sorry, I did mean 2' radius.

I do not think I want to start with 1:24, but that loco might work if I decide to go Aristo (also with a recab?)?

Now to make a decision between the Aristo and the Big Hauler/LGB sizes (at least to start). Anyone have input to help me with that?

I do know that NG (22.5 and 20.3) would be more appropriate and 'look better' with the sharp curves, but I do intend to run relatively small steam (4-6-0's and 2-6-0's would probably be the largest). But if I am more after an operational simulation than a rivet simulation (as long as things look reasonably good) does it matter (much)? I know it does to some people, and not to others.

I guess I have to go ponder some things now. Maybe I can find a couple of local folks that have some stuff for size comparisons. I did actually put a time/money investment into a comparison in y own yard, but it was between major scales. Maybe the same thing is called for with just G. Left to right: famous Bachmann Big Hauler 4-6-0, LGB Stainz, Lionel O scale! Camelback 4-6-0, Bachmann On30 inside frame 4-4-0, Atlas O (semi-scale) 4-4-2, AF S scale 4-4-2.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Something to consider is when a small child runs a train, engines with side rods have/create pinch points and can really hurt those little fingers. LGB's rule was 8 years or older and now I believe the age is even a higher number.
Also note that for durability LGB wins in my opinion. LGB also wins for parts as you can get new motors for 30 year old engines.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

yes, now it is 14 years. - a great way to interest kids for the hobby...


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

thx guys. my daughter loves trains. she only does this under my direct supervision from the throttle and when we put stuff in cars she stops the train (in that pic they are all static). she knows how to and understands stop, slow, faster, backwards, whistle, bell.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Just to kinda close this thread out (maybe!) I have decided to go with Bachmann Big Hauler and LGB stuff. I think I prefer Big Hauler but I can see some LGB sneaking in as well as some other manufacturers/scales when the item is appropriate.

Thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions and opinions!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

For the Bachmann big hauler, be sure to get the later model with metal side rods as this is a better engine. And add weights to the pilot truck as this truck derails easily.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dan,
Thx. I have the GIRR Big Hauler tips bookmarked!  But when I say Big Hauler I just meant that line from Bachmann. I am not sure I will actually do any 4-6-0's. If I do, I will get gen 5 or Annie editions.

I do already have a side tank Porter on the way. I hope it does not disappoint. The other loco I am looking at is the 2-4-2T's.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Be sure to keep light loads on the Bachmann engines and they will last much longer. LGB engines are much more robust, but alas they do cost more. Note that in the past Bachmann big haulers were only the 4-6-0 with all plastic gearing and only the rear axle was motor driven. The annie with metal side gears wast the best one but would never pull cars like the LGB mogul (2-6-0).


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Yessir, thx again. I am not looking to pull long trains, I anticipate at the most 4-5 cars per train.

Do the other Big Haulers also have the plastic gearing? I think there I am mostly looking at the side tank Porter and the 2-4-2T.


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

Don't forget, you don't have to buy all this stuff new. Join a Garden RR Club (if there's one in your area). Among the benefits is buying track for 10% of new. Unless the stuff is very old, the rails will not weather and the ties will be UV resistent.
Used locos and cars may often have metal wheels and kadee coupleres at a cost less than a new one with plastic wheels and funky couplers.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dick,
yessir, I am a used connoisseur. i scrub eBay and Craig's list daily right now.

with what i want to do with BPRC older, used loco's will work pretty well for me as long as they are in good shape. it is far more acceptable to tear into a less expensive piece to get my methodology down!


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