# QSI Titan beta test review



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First of all, I'm reviewing a BETA version of the QSI Titan, so not all the software is finished, and this will be a series of notes of features and operation as I find them.

I would ask people that want to compare the QSI to something else to do so on their own thread, this thread is for information about the QSI Titan, something we have waited a long time.

First thing I noticed, the default setting on the firmware I got will make Kevin Strong happy, 2 toots on the whistle when starting and 1 when stopping. One of the goals of this board was to be a top quality sound board also, without the DCC. 

I hardwired this to an Aristo Consolidation, and fired up the first time. Wow, the "herky jerky" motion of the previous QSI's is gone!

I turned BEMF on and off (STC and RTC modes)... runs good in STC mode, in RTC mode (which has BEMF like control) even the lousy drivetrain on my stock consolidation smoothed out like glass. 

(my drivetrain has a hitch in it's giddyup)

More to come, eating dinner.

Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 04 Jun 2012 09:31 PM 
One of the goals of this board was to be a top quality sound board also, without the DCC. 

Greg,

Can you check what the minimum DC track voltage is for proper sound and functions?


That used to be an issue with older versions of sound decoders running in analog mode - they required 7 VDC and up to work properly.


Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I will do that Knut, DC I assume. 

The trick is that this is a motor and sound decoder, so the motor will come on at the right time. Of course if it starts at 7 volts, non decoder equipped locos will probably already be rolling. 

Greg


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for doing this Greg--looking forward to further reports


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Another thing is the automatic sounds on the steam version are more varied than I have heard before (remember I have mostly steamers in the original QSI's). More sounds and more "stuff" going on. 

The chuff sounds more "detailed", but having some issues tuning the speed right now, so only low speed, and I have not played with volumes. 

Greg


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Jun 2012 07:17 AM 
Another thing is the automatic sounds on the steam version are more varied than I have heard before (remember I have mostly steamers in the original QSI's). More sounds and more "stuff" going on. 

The chuff sounds more "detailed", but having some issues tuning the speed right now, so only low speed, and I have not played with volumes. 

Greg 
Regarding the "speed tuning", would this be similar to "randomization" in the chuffs relating to speed?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No, it's the setting to sync the rotation of the drivers to the chuffs. That command is apparently disabled in my firmware build. I should not have said tuning, bad choice of words. 

The QSI can "count" every segment on the commutator on the motor, i.e. it knows the rpm of the motor precisely. The CV I need to change sets the "gear ratio" between the motor rpm and the driver rpm. 

This allows precisely the desired number of chuffs per driver revolution, which is 4 in this case. 

No randomization is desired in this application, but there is an ability to allow for "driver slip" in articulated locos, as happens in real life, where the two distinct chuffs from a "simpled" loco go in and out of phase. 

Greg


----------



## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

How does it know 'precisely' the RPM of the motor ? Is it interpolating from BEMF ? Can you apply a tach to verify the claimed RPM ? Would be interesting.

Cheers,
Victor


----------



## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05 Jun 2012 12:33 PM 
No, it's the setting to sync the rotation of the drivers to the chuffs. That command is apparently disabled in my firmware build. I should not have said tuning, bad choice of words. 

The QSI can "count" every segment on the commutator on the motor, i.e. it knows the rpm of the motor precisely. The CV I need to change sets the "gear ratio" between the motor rpm and the driver rpm. 

This allows precisely the desired number of chuffs per driver revolution, which is 4 in this case. 

No randomization is desired in this application, but there is an ability to allow for "driver slip" in articulated locos, as happens in real life, where the two distinct chuffs from a "simpled" loco go in and out of phase. 

Greg 
Thank you.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, a few thoughts... 

First, on the chuffs--are they new sound files? My understanding from the QSI list is that they're still using predominently the existing sound files, and uptating as time allows. If you're hearing an improved variance with the original sound files, that would mean they're able to do more with them, which "sounds" very promising. If they are new sound files, it would be interesting to load the older sounds and see how much of a difference there is between how it handles the two. 

On tweaking the "auto chuff" for lack of better terminology, it'll be interesting to see how it's improved over the older boards. It may "count" every segment on the commutator, but the old version seemed to not be very good at counting depending on the specific motor. (for instance, I did an install on two identical locos with identical settings, and had vastly different results.) I'll be interested to see if this one fares better. 

Also, check the response time on the horn/whistle. I've always felt the old QSI a bit "slow" in response to pushing the button and hearing the sound compared to other systems. I don't mind a very brief delay, and I don't know how much of that delay varies with the control system, as it seems different depending on whether I'm controlling via the MRC controller or QSI programmer, Airwire, or NCE, but it still feels "long" to me. 

Good to know the directinal toots are there.  Rarely can you get really short "pips" of the whistle by just tapping the horn button regardless of the sound system. A proper digital recording of a forward/reverse/stop signal in conjunction with each specific movements is the only way to be realistic. 

Looking forward to what you come up with. The pulsed smoke driver sounds intriguing. I'm really considering doing something like that for the loco I'm working on now. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not investigated the sound files yet to answer you, but it does sound different, more "detailed" if that makes sense. 

Have not compared the unit to more than one loco yet, just was working on the chuff timing this evening. It's set differently, and the settings involve more "scale" performance, for example you now must set the scale diameter of your wheels, and then set the scale miles per hour to the BEMF ratio. Comes out the same in the end, but you apparently get calibration to scale at the same time. There's also a setting of chuffs per revolution, I'm hoping you can change that as the loco speeds up. 

There's also new tweaks to the sound of the chuff... either by load or speed... will get details. 

On the response time, I suspect you were using Airwire or a wireless throttle and that's the delay... I'm using an NCE system with a wireless throttle, response is instant. You have to remember the delay in DCC is not on the rails! 

I can get short "pips" on my system... there's some stuff about sending the whistle command you don't quite understand, you might read up on "horn/whistle stop packets", which is usually settable in a good system. 

The smoke driver will pulse the fan and the heater separately. After I have completely investigated the chuff stuff, the next thing on the agenda is driving a fan and heater directly from the QSI...

Greg


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I suspect you were using Airwire or a wireless throttle and that's the delay... 
It's certainly more pronounced with the Airwire or G-wire cab--moreso on the G-wire, but there's also a delay via the MRC Prodigy and QSI Programmer interface. Other controls (bell, headlight, throttle change, stop, etc.) don't seem to have quite the delay, at least to my sense of the operation. I'd also add that the delay in the QSI when controlled via the G-wire cab seems far longer than that of a Phoenix controlled by the same. Hence my pondering as to whether it's the controller, board, or a combination of both. 

I can get short "pips" on my system... there's some stuff about sending the whistle command you don't quite understand, you might read up on "horn/whistle stop packets", which is usually settable in a good system. 
I'm not talking about stop packets, but the recording itself. QSI is actually fairly unique in that it offers a "long" and "short" version of its whistle based on how long you hold the button down. (Alas, not all its sound sets offer this feature, and some that do are so annoyingly different as to hardly be considered to emanate from the same whistle, but that's another rant.) So yes, you can--with a suitable sound set and controller--get proper "pips" from a QSI board with manual triggers. But that's a lot of "ifs." Why not make it automatic? QSI put a ton of energy into giving you automatic control over the directional headlights, it's about time they did the same thing for the equally-prototypical whistles. 

Later, 

K


----------



## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Just listed a QSI Magnum in the Classifieds.... 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Shoppin...1/agentType/View/PropertyID/1426/Default.aspx


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, I checked out the delay to trigger the horn, it is maybe 1/2 second on my NCE, not as instantaneous as I thought. 

But your point if I understand it is a short whistle for short "pips". 

Normally the QSI has a pretty fancy whistle in 3 parts, beginning, middle and end. If you try to repeat it quickly, you may only get the beginning. 

Greg


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got the chuffs synced perfectly tonight, very happy with the results, and it keeps timing fast and slow. 

Sound very nice, running the high resolution sound file. 

Tomorrow, will try to run the fan and heater right from the decoder.... 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

So Greg, regarding the chuff syncronization, it can sync with the speed of the wheels, but not the position using the BEMF, is that correct? So you'll get four chuffs per revolution but not necessarily at the end of the piston strokes? On the horn delay, is that a function of your NCE system or the decoder? The only time my response isn't immediate is when I am using the older serial pulse decoders. 

Keith


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the info Greg. I have been patiently waiting for the Titan, with a few rants I admit. Since the BETA is getting tested by folks like you that means we are a lot closer.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm doing the BEMF chuff Keith, there is also a trigger input for a chuff switch. The Aristo products have no chuff switch, but you can add one. 

The horn delay is no more than any other system I have used. Caused by all the delays from the time you press the button to the time it comes from the speaker. So it's wireless communication, then DCC communication and decoder delay all together. 

Since the QSI usually has 3 "pieces" to the horn sound, there's a bit of "start up" to the sound. Immediate to me means ZERO seconds... NOTHING I have ever used is zero... other than zero, need a number, impossible to convey subjective information about "fast" "slow" in the written word. Even in the real world "fast" can be different to 2 different people. 

It's no better or worse than any other system I have used. Kevin's interpretations of "delay" started all of this. I would suspect that a simple r/c system sending less data, and sending it direct to a receiver, and a sound card with a trigger input would be the fastest and least delay, and I think that's Kevin's "base point"... which is fine. 

There's nothing wrong with the QSI, DCC, or the NCE... and no faster or slower response of the Titan vs. the original QSI. 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Greg. On the triggering speed, when I push my horn button, by the time I've released the button it's blowing--it registers as no delay in my brain. If I remember correctly the time I was running my friends Zimo it didn't have a discernable delay either. My locomotives with Phoenix are pretty much instant too, which is good when running the manual horn. Maybe it's the processor speed in the central station?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Still on the same track..... hmm... I'm not communicating very well.. 

Let me propose this... push the button and release it as quickly as you can... (to be painfully clear, press fast release fast, do not dwell) can you get your finger off the button before the horn blows? 

I can wait for your to try it. 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll try it tonight and let you know.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My system at my house will allow me to JUST get my finger off the button when the horn/whistle starts. That's pretty darn quick, but a finite delay nonetheless. 

Greg


----------



## Chris_Haon (Dec 28, 2011)

Hi guys,
I have been following the QSI threads for a while. I have a pretty simple question about the QSI in general. 
I am relatively new to the G Scale. This is my 5th year in the hobby so still learning.
1. Can the QSI be used as just a stand a lone sound card like the phoenix ?
2. Will this new titan be compatable with the Aristo Revolution system ?

Thanks!
Chris

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes 
Yes 

But for best operation, you need to connect the motor directly to the QSI, since the QSI sounds also reflect the actual speed and load of the motor(s). 

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

OK, Greg, tested the response time. With either a Massoth decoder or Phoenix, both are sounding before my finger can get off the key.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I can do that with a wired throttle, but not a wireless one. I can just get my finger off the key, but are you pressing the button (i.e. the downstroke) as quickly as you can and not holding it, i.e. press and instant release. 

I have a unit with a phoenix, same response time. 

Interesting discussion, but I'd like to continue it somewhere else, it's not the qsi, and I would like to keep this on the QSI. 

Greg


----------



## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

If I recall correctly, The delay in the horn response is to allow control of the doppler effect. I had noticed the delay in a QSI Revo equipped HO switcher and asked the guys at Tony's about it. My Soundtraxx equipped Locos do not have this delay. I find that I don't use horns much anyway but I do like having the diesel engine sounds. On the diesel versions, Do you know if it will be possible to adjust the relative volumes for when the locomotive is at idle, under load, cruising, and decelerating? 

Greg, Will you be testing the QSI in a two motor diesel as well? From the posted dimensions, I'm guessing I can just sneak it under a hood on my 44 ton locos as long as it doesn't get too warm. I assume that in order to get smoother starts and a lower minimum speed I will need a separate decoder for each motor so that they can read BEMF properly. I am currently using an NCE D808 mounted under the cab and between the weights. The problem I had is that the motors would start at slightly different voltages. The first truck to start would be held back by the second truck. When the second motor started, the locomotive would take off since it now had two motors working and the rolling resistance had been removed. I was able to get smoother starts by removing the motor from the front truck but I lost quite a bit of pulling capability. Especially since I had removed the rubber wheelsets during the rebuild. 

Does the QSI decoder generate much heat? I also wonder if the AirWire compatible receiver will work on the Titan. That T5000 transmitter still looks nice and I would only need power feeders and not a control bus. Do you suppose one receiver would be able to control two Titans if I do turn out to need one for each truck? 

Thanks for the info. 

Scott


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting they said the delay allows the doppler... I will ask the engineers who wrote the code, I have direct lines of communication to them and the head of QSI also. 

Relative volumes, not sure yet, have not read all the additions to the manual (which is on the QSI solutions site)... You can change parameters that determine the change in volume due to speed and load. You can change all the individual volumes, and also a "balance control" between the 2 speakers, if you use a second speaker. I really wish they would stop using the term stereo, since stereo implies that sounds were recorded in right and left channels to begin with. 

Yes, after the test with the Consolidation and direct connection to a smoke unit heater and fan, I will test in an Aristo dash 9, with 4 motors... provided by Aristo (for evaluation of this and their new wheel contour). 

Up until this time, the original QSI sometimes had trouble running BEMF with more than one motor. I understand the PID parameters have been given more resolution, this may help. 

The BEMF interaction between motors, as in people telling you that you cannot run BEMF in a consist has been overplayed in my opinion... I do it all the time. 

No it does not generate much heate, and yes it does have the airwire socket and will be airwire compatible like the original QSI. 

The receiver output is 5 volts, but I don't know if it will handle the load of 2 decoders, will keep your question in mind. 

Greg


----------



## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

Chris
QSI is a sound card and motion/accessories decoder in one, I do not thi9nk it can be used for just sound because the3 sound control/inputs come from the same board.

Revolution is not compatible with QSI at this time, I have heard rumors that there is a Revolution compatible G Wire board in the works.

Nick


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg. 

1. Have you tried the new QSI as a stand alone sound system reading a pwm motor controller? 

2. Does the steam sound chuff have the ability to read a mechanical/optical chuff timer? 

3. Do the external sound system triggers go low to activate. i.e. with open collector transistors?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony: 
1. not yet 
2. yes 
3. yes, your product was one of the systems that helped drive the trigger inputs 

Nick, I have the new QSI, it has trigger inputs, it can be used for sound, but the BEMF effects want to "read" the motor, thus my comments. It has G wire capability. See the top of this thread for the pictures showing the AirWire receiver socket. 

Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info Greg. 
I look forward to your information from testing for pwm compatibility.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The key question to me would be "Can you play the whistle" or the horn 

If the answer is "yes" then I think most people would be happy with that - if "no", well, then at least some people would have a problem I think. 

One other thing that would interest me besides running analogue at minimum DC voltage would be the effect of the "Stereo Sound" in practice since that is a very heavily advertised capability by QSI. 

Using the 10 foot rule and an outdoor environment, does that help with the sound realism? 

Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, you can play the whistle, you can turn it on and off with DC polarity reversal while it is moving. Bell too. 

There is a box called the "Quantum Engineer" that goes between your DC power pack and the track and can control even more, like volume. 

Again, the minimum voltage has to be around 6-8 volts, because it has a 5 volt processor, but again, since you are running one loco per track on DC, then put a QSI in each, then the minimum voltage does not matter. 

I know the stereo sound is advertised, heavily is your subjective term, and you seem determined to hang on to it. I've explained it and given my opinion already, so why rehash this? I guess you will have to take my opinion or read the manual or wait. 

For anyone else, my opinion is that having 2 speakers and being able to balance an individual sound between them can help the realism, especially in the case of a steam loco where the big speaker will be in the tender. A second, smaller speaker in the boiler can help make the sound appear to come from the locomotive itself, not the tender, and yes, at 20 feet I can tell....

Regards, Greg


----------



## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

With the Airwire interface, do it use the motor drivers on the Airwire board or the Titan board??? 
I would have to guess that the BEMF will still work and the smoke driver would be in sync with the chuff. Also check to see if the fan on the smoke unit stops completely between the chuffs. 

Thanks Greg for posting all this information 

Rodney


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are 3 possible ways to do this. 

One way is to use a QSI board and the "Garden wire" receiver... this uses the QSI the same way as the Airwire decoder + sound board setup although all in one board with all the advantages of the BEMF sound control, etc. This works for sure. 

The other way is to use an Airwire decoder, and feed the DCC outputs to the QSI and then hook the motor to the qsi, this may not work properly since the Airwire may not pass the motor controls to the DCC output, this needs to be tested. 

Another way might be to connect the QSI to the motor outputs of the Airwire decoder and then use the trigger inputs on the QSI. Have not tested this either. 

In any case, for the BEMF features to work, the QSI needs the motor connect to it. Chuff might work with other setups if you use a chuff cam input. 

The fan stopping completely between the chuffs is not necessarily desirable, but the smoke control is being investigated now. 

Greg


----------



## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jun 2012 11:55 AM 

Knut, you can play the whistle, you can turn it on and off with DC polarity reversal while it is moving. Bell too. 

...

Regards, Greg 
I recall several years ago that DigiSys came out with "play the whistle" capabilities...and back then it meant that the hand controller/throttle had a whistle button that had a resistive action...not and on/off action...and the sound function on the DCC card understood that signal.

How far down you pushed down on that button dictated the sound that was produced. Little pushes got you low volume, shrill peeps....full pushes got you a loud, deep, throaty whistle response. At the Phoenix NGRCs I saw a demonstration of this...and you could have played a tune with that button if you were good enough. I don't recall the diesel horn analogy.


----------



## Rods UP 9000 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will go with the G-wire then when the Titan becomes available. Can I do all the programing that I need to using either my Easy DCC or Digitrax Zephyr and then hook up the G-Wire after I'm done programing?? Or can all the programing be done through a computer interface???

Rodney


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To download different sound sets or change a whistle, you need the QSI programmer. If you buy your QSI with the sound set you want (normally done by your vendor) then you don't need the QSI programmer. 

You can set CV's from the rails like a normal DCC decoder, or via AirWire. 

Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Jun 2012 11:55 AM 
Knut, you can play the whistle, you can turn it on and off with DC polarity reversal while it is moving. Bell too.



My "Play the whistle" question really related to the posts on delays before the whistle/horn sounds and specifically how well one can control blowing the whistle/horn rather than using it when running the loco on DC.


Say I want to give four short blasts and two long ones, if I hit the function button controlling the whistle/horn as quickly as I can four times and then slower twice, and if the whistle/horn sounds follow that faithfully, then from a practical point of view that should be acceptable even if there is some slight delay between the time the function button is pressed and the whistle/horn actually sounds.


Noted your comment re "stereo", Greg - not sure why I didn't see that the first time looking through this thread.


I think in general, QSI needs to rework their product information.

Knut


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Greg, 

Which is the correct user document to go with the unit you are testing? 

I initially thought it was the main QSI document, at least for the software portion, but that is dated 7 September 2011 and doesn't cover all the capabilities of the Large Scale unit. 

Then for the decoder itself, I figured Quantum Titan-U would be it, assuming "U" stands for universal, but that manual is for the HO version. 

The product name for the universal Large Scale version is either QSI Titan Magnum-6 or QSI Titan Magnum-10...which one of those are you actually testing and where would I find the user manual for it? 

Thanks, 

Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, in regards to your whistle statement, I have NEVER encountered a DCC horn/whistle that did not follow the button, i.e. play as long or as short as you held it, except for some crappy sound files on European decoders, and some really cheap MRC units 

This is a fundamental function in DCC and sound decoders... of course the QSI follows it... 

There's accommodation in how the horn is handled, with a number of stop packets normally adjustable, usually needed in non-full-duplex systems like Airwire. 

anyway, how about we leave all this standard DCC stuff for some other thread. 

The manual is in the last section of the manuals on the QSI site, and it's the first one in the last section, stating it is for all QSI systems... 

There's all kinds of quick help and getting started manuals on the site. 

Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jun 2012 03:45 PM 
Knut, in regards to your whistle statement, I have NEVER encountered a DCC horn/whistle that did not follow the button, i.e. play as long or as short as you held it, 


The problem I have seen is that some decoders have trouble if one tries to play a series of short blasts, say four in 1/4 of a second, then the decoder would only play three of them.

As to documentation, I looked through the complete QSI manual download site including the section at the end. 

At the end I see these:


*General*
[*]Full DCC Reference Manual For All QSI Decoders 







[*]*Q1a/Q2 Steam Manual v4.1.1 for Upgrade Chips 







* [*]Q1a Betriebsanleitung für Dampflokomotiven v4.1.2







[/list] [*]*Q1a/Q2 Diesel Manual v4.1 for Upgrade Chips 







*[*]How to determine your locomotive's software version (DC)







[*]How to determine your locomotive's software version (DCC)







[*]*Quantum HO DCC Reference Manual Ver. 3.0







*[*]*Quantum DC Analog Reference Manual Ver. 4.0







*[*]QS2 User Manual







[*] QS3000 User Manual







[/list]The only manual that might apply is the first one, the full DCC reference manual but it is over a half a year old so I didn't think it would cover the new Large Scale Titan decoder - that manual also doesn't cover the hardware aspect.
The only other thing I can find is the drawing of the unit itself with some cursory connection information.

I assume at some time QSI will have a proper manual for the Large Scale Titan in the same way as they have for the the HO version.
That's what I was looking for.


Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If you would have looked inside the manual, you would see specific reference to updates for the Titan. They did not update the date. 

Since there are many different hardware versions, they wisely did not add all the hardware to it... just take some time and look around, everything is there.. 

I have the pinouts for the new board, I can send you the pdf if you really want it, but from here on out you gotta do some studying on your own, I need to get some work done! 

You can also check the Titan page on my site... I'll be posting stuff there. 

Knut, you just gotta trust me and look a little harder. 


Greg 

p.s. i have the 6 amp continuous one... the higher amp one just has higher capacity output transistors on the second board (thus part of the logic on the 2 board design).


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jun 2012 05:43 PM 
Knut, you just gotta trust me and look a little harder.




Greg, 

I do trust you - you call a spade a spade and I'm sure you will do no less with your testing and evaluation of the QSI Large Scale Titan decoder, but....

the fact that QSI updated the document and didn't change the date just re-emphasizes the points I already made a couple of times - they need to work on their documentation.

I have had the board pin-out drawing for a while since it's on the QSI website, but it sure doesn't provide all the information a user needs to know about using the decoder.
Is there no Large Scale Titan manual planned? One that covers the hardware aspect of the decoder?

Just looking at the pin-out diagram raises a lot of questions, like

...is the 18 volt output on pin J1A6 regulated or rectified DCC track voltage. Since it showed "18 volts" it suggests that it is regulated, but then if one looks at the description of the symbol for the headlight and taillight (18 - 28 volt incandescent bulb), I woyld suspect it's not regulated.

This immediately raises the next question - what is the voltage on that pin 6 running analog DC? Is it equal to the DC track voltage or is there no output until the DC track voltage reaches 18 volts.

What is the maximum current that can be supplied by pin 6 and also by pin 8 which drives the smoke unit?

And still on the smoke subject, the smoke fan is connected to 5 volts which suggests that this unit will only work with a specific smoke unit - which one? The Massoth pulsed smoke unit for one for example is either 19 volts or 5 volts.

These are questions that come up looking only at one function of the QSI Titan - none of that is covered anywhere that I can find.

Certainly not under any documentation related to the Large Scale Titan product name.

Greg,

I don't expect you to try to find the answers to any of this - these are not questions about some obscure capability, it's basic information that should be covered in the documentation shipped with the unit and also on line if possible so people can evaluate if that DCC decoder is suitable for their intended purposes before they buy it.

Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, this is a thread on a BETA board... so you have to expect at least BETA documentation... although that's no guarantee that it will improve. 

I know most of the answers you are asking, but this is still beta hardware and beta software and beta manuals. 

How about you sit tight for a while, or at least do this on another thread, it's certainly not helping this thread, where I'm trying to do a methodical checkout of new features, and basic function. 

The idea was to do a review on a beta product, and give people some answers early on. That's why I'm testing functions, like setting the chuff rate, working on the direct smoke system, and then on to lighting and the "stereo" sound.

I believe this is much more helpful to the majority of users who want to know if the promised functions work, not if there is a pin with 18 volts somewhere. Please consider this.

Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg. 
I always thought that a Beta sample of the hardware was produced for inspection, testing, review and update if necessary, *before* before production is commenced. 

Have you been given a time frame for the results of that procedure to be assessed and implemented before production, or has production already commenced?


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe hardware production has started, the checkout of the outputs was pretty simple, and of course the chip itself is proven. 

The real changes are in the firmware, since the HO units have been out for a while. 

Looking good so far, and QSI has a proven history of firmware updates to fix stuff. The work I'm doing should help have the default settings for USAT, Aristo, Bachmann worked out (actually Stan Ames is the major contributor on the Bachmann side). 

Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll share all the data I can, I want to get the smoke programming worked out so we can set some default parameters. 

I've got so many new features to check out. When used with your products, what mode would you suggest? Running in "DC" mode from your motor output, or putting the motor directly to the QSI? 

Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not qualified to get involved in the discussion of the QSI DCC features.

I see the QSI Titan as a possible alternative for the Phoenix P8 and one stop shop PB11 kits. 
I would prefer to have the QSI in parallel with my motor output, just like a P8. The QSI should only be using the motor output as a reference. 
The QSI should be able to accept a battery input where it doesn't matter what the polarity is. I think the diagram shows that. 
It is essential the QSI should be able to handle a PWM motor signal, Just like the P8 does, 
Depending on the price, there could be a market here in Australia for a stand alone Digital sound system for regular DC locos. Like the PB11.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 10 Jun 2012 08:59 PM 
Knut, this is a thread on a BETA board... so you have to expect at least BETA documentation...

I understand that Greg,

Product Management in the company I work for was very much involved in Beta testing, one key element of that test activity was always the documentation.

That aspect seems to be missing here completely.
There simply is no documentation, Beta or otherwise, that covers the hardware aspect of this decoder - at least not one for public consumption, maybe you have a private copy of it.


Knut

BTW - If there was appropriate documentation available covering the hardware aspect of this new decoder, people wouldn't need to ask many of the questions they do ask in this thread.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll make sure one gets created one way or the other. You will have to define what you mean by hardware though, I would think the output specs on each pin would be enough, voltage limits, current limits, and what it does or can do. 

Greg


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 11 Jun 2012 09:41 AM 
I'll make sure one gets created one way or the other. You will have to define what you mean by hardware though, I would think the output specs on each pin would be enough, voltage limits, current limits, and what it does or can do. 

Greg 
Greg,

I would have suggested that QSI just take the documentation structure they have for their HO decoders and apply that to the Large Scale decoder, that way there is some consistency within the QSI product line, but looking at their HO DCC documentation, turns out that is very confusing as well.


There seems to be no consistent documentation strategy, does QSI not have a Product Manager who would be responsible for all aspects of the product including documentation (which is really part of the product)?


I'm looking at the Titan U Diesel installation manual as an example - to use that format for the Large Scale version of the Titan.
When I get to the wiring diagram on page 4, it says Quantum Titan U as the title information for the drawing, I thought Quantum and Titan are two different product lines at QSI, The identifier of the unit itself on the drawing is "Quantum Revolution FX" which to me sounds this is a version designed to work with the Aristo Revolution system and not the Universal one as per the title page.


The QSI documentation right now consists of a collection of a lot of small bits and pieces, figuring out which ones go together and which ones are needed for an installation is a task in itself.


You probably have no problem with this and I could work my way through that, but for the typical person in Large Scale (or the smaller scales for that matter), the documentation needs to be clearer and more straight forward.

Someone at QSI should be gived documentation responsibility and tasked to write up a documentation plan or structure.
Once the structure has been decided on, the various documentation pieces can be slotted in and reworked as needed.

What to me makes most sense (without really knowing the QSI product line and how they want to market their products) is to create no more than two documents to cover any one product - an installation manual (which I have referred to as the hardware part, but it doesn't have to be restricted to that), a manual that covers everything that is needed for basic installations and is sufficient for the majority of the users, and a detailed, extensive common manual that goes into all the nitty gitty details of programming options and tweaking.
This second manual could probably be the "Full DCC Reference Manual for all QSI decoders" by stripping out the information not applicable to the Titan product line.

The installation manual could be based on the existing Titan U HO manuals although I would try to combine the different manual QSI has today for diesel, electric, turbine, steam RDC, Doodlebug, into one manual if possible.

Main difference (I guess) would be the sounds and which sounds are triggered by which function keys.
But how to split up the manuals or combine them is something the documentation plan should spell out.

The base product documentation (or installation manual) obviously needs to include the parameters you mentioned, in addition QSI needs to decide if they want to include specifics especially for the Large Scale documentation, how to connect certain common auxiliary products.

For Large Scale there are for instance only a very limited number of smoke units, pulsed or otherwise, available, so covering those either specifically or more general makes sense.
In the smaller scales that makes less sense simply because the selection of auxiliary devices that can connect to the decoder is much larger.

What QSI must remember when creating documentation is that most people in the hobby don't have any electronic background - so having all the specs listed is important for those that do and use them, but the documentation needs to focus on those that just want to be able to install the decoder, hook it up and expect it to work - and that is the vast majority of the hobbyists.


Back to the smoke unit as an example - how would one hook up a Massoth pulsed smoke unit to this Large Scale decoder?


Sorry, not a clear cut - do this, this and that and you're done, but that is what I see right now when it comes to documentation of the Large Scale Titan.
Others may think differently.

Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

OK, REALLY rough video of smoke unit pulsing.

Perfectly stock USA trains smoke unit, no extra electronics, driven directly from the QSI.

I'm running the heating element from a 12 volt source to see what the optimum current/voltage is for the unit. It will be run from the QSI, as the QSI also has an output for the smoke heating element.

enough smoke?


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Darnit, Greg, why'd you have to go and show that? Now I'm back to wanting to put a good smoke unit in my 2-8-0! Is there a provision with that to have the fan running at a very slow speed when not "triggered" to simulate the blower being on, or is it strictly "on-off?" 

Later, 

K


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, that can be done... I drove home from work, punched a couple of CV's, and wired up the unit before it got dark. This is just the beginning. I cannot reveal the coming features in this area, but it will be great. The nice thing is that you can use basically any unit with a heater and a fan, and you can find smoke units "purged" from loco conversions for cheap, I have a bag of them purchased from an installer. 

In the video, you really cannot see, but the idle is actually there... I did not stop the loco for you to see it... 

Again remember, this is just my first setup... you can visit my site and see the QSI Titan page, as I continue testing, I add programming tips... 

There is minimum speed, mid speed, max speed control. Then there is duration and ramp up and ramp down settings. 

Believe me you can set it up very well, and the beauty is that this is in software, so as people find new things to do, the hardware is flexible enough to perform it. 

Greg


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg, 

Do you know if the QSI can also have puffing smoke when used in a sound only set up? For example, will the mechanical chuff timer option be able to activate pulsing of the smoke unit?


----------



## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That looks great! I can't wait to try it out. I've got several locos it'd be perfect in.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yes, no matter how the chuff is "timed", (BEMF or electrical chuff trigger) you will have the same effect. 

Note that I do not know what happens if you do not connect the motor to the QSI. 

Greg


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Gah, I knew I shouldn't have looked here. Now I really want to get mine here.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg it seems to me that all the features you have described so far are already available in decoders like the Zimo 695 series, and given the new Titan price increase it will likely be selling for about the same price. I was looking at the QSI library and it seems very generic. So there is lots of hype here for the new QSI, but I'm not seeing anything new yet...just them catching up to everyone else. What am I missing? 

Keith


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 22 Jun 2012 09:21 AM 
So there is lots of hype here for the new QSI, but I'm not seeing anything new yet...just them catching up to everyone else. What am I missing? 

Keith 
The stereo sound of course, Keith....how could you forget?
Heaviest advertised feature for the QSI Titan.

Sorry, just couldn't resist, but every document of the Titan I have ever looked at really emphasizes that.

As to pulsed smoke, for me the ultimate that the other manufacturers need to strive for is the integrated smoke unit by KM-1.
That smoke looks very realistic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW0iGOSuVvg 
Knut


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Ha ha! Yes how could I forget the stereo sound! 

I agree the KM1 is the best integration of smoke I've seen so far, with the Massoth pulsed smoke maker next best.


----------



## ntpntpntp (Jan 14, 2008)

Looks good, I reckon I'll be giving these decoders a go. The smoke unit fan sounds like it's having an asthma attack!


----------



## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Well some of the other decoders may have a lot of the features all ready but they are not PnP which is the best deal in town. So I am waiting in line for these like the rest of you folks. Of course the instructions will be in our favorite language which is English compared to the other folks.









Now that is a very impressive amount of smoke out put for USAT unit.Later RJD


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Well some of the other decoders may have a lot of the features all ready but they are not PnP which is the best deal in town 

I wonder just how plug-and-play these will really be. If you look on their website they are saying for the USA Trains version you have to by some kind of adaptor made by a third party that isn't even finished development yet! So now we're down to Aristo, and most decoders already have a plug for that. So once again there is lots of Polkspeak and little substance. 

Keith


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks guys for bringing up competitive products and comparing them to something else, and detracting for the intent, an early review to see what the QSI is capable of. 


*From the first post:*

*First of all, I'm reviewing a BETA version of the QSI Titan, so not all the software is finished, and this will be a series of notes of features and operation as I find them.*

*I would ask people that want to compare the QSI to something else to do so on their own thread, this thread is for information about the QSI Titan, something we have waited a long time.*

how about a little respect for the people who want to learn this information early, and maybe also ask questions about the product to help them make informed decisions.

Maybe I'll just update my web site.....

Forums may no longer be a good vehicle for helping others any more.

see my site for further updates.

Greg


----------



## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I think your review of the BETA version of the LS Tsunami is very helpful for those of us that what that information. What I would like information on the Revolution wireless information as soon as someone gets their hands on it (if it's ever released). 

Thanks for you insightful information on the long awaited LS Tsunami.


----------



## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Greg, Great review, looking for when they will be available. Can you post on your web site how you wired the USA smoke unit up and the part# and what engine its from. None of my USA engines smoke like that. Thanks Jack


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Reevha: the long awaited large scale Tsunami is still long awaited, it has never existed except for some OEM products in Bachmann.

As the title says, this is the QSI Titan.

Jack, I have posted a preliminary video on my site: *http://www.elmassian.com/trains/dcc.../qsi-titan* This is a stock USA smoke unit (the type with the fan, believe it is in all modern units, and the PA for sure). Wiring is simple, there are 2 connectors on the smoke unit... one directly to the heater, and one directly to the fan. 

The heater and fan will be connected exactly as shown on the pictorial on that same page.

Right now I was running the heater from a constant 12 volts to experiment with what voltages worked best. The heater output on the QSI can be controlled to effectively set the voltage, it is a PWM (pulse width modulated) output like all the lighting outputs on the QSI... a nice feature since you can accomodate 5 volt lamps without adding resistors, for example.

I'm waiting on some new firmware to continue playing... I will probably also test the Aristo smoke unit, but I like the USA Trains one better, metal reservoir, more rugged and better fan motor, and no modifications required. The Aristo will have to be opened and jumpers soldered to bypass the electronics, and another connector added to separate the smoke and fan. It's a no brainer with the USAT unit.

Greg


----------



## reeveha (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry my mistake I meant Titan. Thank you for the correction, just keep updating this review


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yep that KM1 looks real nice. But it took a lot of modification to that loco to get those features. If you wanna do that good for you I wont rain on your parade. I am particularly interested in the Titan because it will be readily available in the US.


----------



## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By jake3404 on 26 Jun 2012 04:14 PM 
Yep that KM1 looks real nice. But it took a lot of modification to that loco to get those features.
Sorry, you lost me.
The KM-1 locos come with that dynamic smoke system as standard, ready-to-run out of the box. There are no modifications required.

For years people wanted to buy that smoke unit by itself but KM-1 always refused to sell it separately.
However, that has recently changed and they do offer that smoke unit now as a separate item.

And btw, this doesn't detract from the QSI Titan, one can probably drive that KM-1 smoke unit with the Titan as well as any other smoke unit.

Knut


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll continue this on another thread in the product reviews section, so for the people interested in the QSI, please don't ask here, I won't answer. 

For the KM-1 people, please go ahead and take the thread wherever you want it... just don't complain in the future if you start a "focused" informational thread and someone dilutes it for you too. 

Greg


----------

