# GS4



## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

I can only get twenty pound's of pressure out of the GS4, it will built up to about sixty and then will not get any higher than twenty while it is running, it's alcohol fired. you think i need more wick ?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Did you just get this loco? Who packed the wicks?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 22 Mar 2011 02:14 PM 
I can only get twenty pound's of pressure out of the GS4, it will built up to about sixty and then will not get any higher than twenty while it is running, it's alcohol fired. you think i need more wick ? 
Have you looked at the wicks yet? I know of one case were the wicks had improper material used (house installation). Here is a test of wicks











Also found that the smokebox can be cause for air infilation









We found modification of a baffle to help keep the fire in the box longer 











Also, check the axle pump, check valve on back head and here is a link to the modifications we have done to make these engines successful runners:

GS4 performance


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

When running on twenty pound it will hall about twelve reefer cars but at slow speed it will keep twenty pound ,yes i check the flame an getting good blue only it is not that high flame like Charles.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you run with the blower open just a bit?


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Raule, 
How high do your wicks sit above the burner? I would start with about 1/2 inch, and if too much, then cut down to about 3/8ths. As Charles said, make sure your smoke box is sealed. 

Rob Meadows 

Los Angeles


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Raule
Could you show us the wick material and how it is setup in the canisters....
Does your wick sheets have a "V" in the middle. The height from bottom to top should be 1.25" on the wick sheet

How many wick sheet do you have in the pots?
Are both wick burning evenly?
Did you allow the fuel to flow and wick to soak prior to lighting them?
Did you check the alignment of blower and exhaust nozzle related to stack? 


Are you running with bypass open or closed?
Could be superheater tube 

Could be a dropped or improper dry pipe: 


I will photo our wick sheets so you have an idea of how they should be configured..


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to take is apart to get the wick and see how they look..yes the blower in open maybe it is because i am running on rollers


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Metalman, 
You didn't answer the question from Jeremiah, "Is this loco NEW to YOU", or is this something that just happened? 
Is it NEW NEW, or did it have a previous owner.
If so, did it run okay for him.
Maybe it's as simple as the fuel that you are using! 
Very hard to give you answers, when we don't have a clear picture. 
Perhaps you can give us a history. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Running on rollers is not a cause for performance related issues... 

This is, an improperly design drypipe


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

No it is not new, the last time it ran just fine with good pressure between 55 and 60 psi it was at Clark's tack in Las Vegas about one year ago,and when i try running it today I'm having this problem.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 22 Mar 2011 04:37 PM 
No it is not new, the last time it ran just fine with good pressure between 55 and 60 psi it was at Clark's tack in Las Vegas about one year ago,and when i try running it today I'm having this problem. 
How about the fuel? Maybe water in the fuel....



Here is a photo of a proper wick sheet. I need to correct the height: 1-1/8" or 3 mm


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Is it an Aster or an Accucraft? If it ran fine last time and not now my bet would be the fuel. If there is any water in the alcohol it will not produce heat. Alcohol is “hydroscopic” meaning that if you have left the top off and the humidity is high it will suck the water out of the air. I have seen an engine not run well, we poured the alcohol out and put in good 99.99% pure alcohol, Canadian hooch as Richard Finlayson calls it, the engine ran perfectly. 

That picture of the wick Charles put up is not like my Aster wicks. Mine are the same shape but even after running for 18years they are still white, not discolored.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Charles, 
Where did you get this wick sheet and what is it? I have John Barrett toaster burners which I filled with ultimate wick strands, but this material looks to be a better and easier fit. 

Rob Meadows 

Los Angeles


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob
Contact me with you snail mail....we will send some, works great!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pantages on 22 Mar 2011 05:58 PM 
Is it an Aster or an Accucraft? If it ran fine last time and not now my bet would be the fuel. If there is any water in the alcohol it will not produce heat. Alcohol is “hydroscopic” meaning that if you have left the top off and the humidity is high it will suck the water out of the air. I have seen an engine not run well, we poured the alcohol out and put in good 99.99% pure alcohol, Canadian hooch as Richard Finlayson calls it, the engine ran perfectly. 

That picture of the wick Charles put up is not like my Aster wicks. Mine are the same shape but even after running for 18years they are still white, not discolored. 
Dan
The material is not asbestos as with the original Aster wicks.....


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

how do you tell if your fuel has water in it? or you just dump the whole gallon.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 22 Mar 2011 07:04 PM 
how do you tell if your fuel has water in it? or you just dump the whole gallon. 
Purchase a small can of fresh and see what happens.


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

Will try it again in a couple days I'm burnt out.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Don't lose the joy over it. Sometimes taking a break is good. You come back and something that seemed insurmountable becomes very easy to figure out. Wish you the best in figuring it out. Kind of cool if you look at it from the perspective of you being the mechanic on a real locomotive that needs looking after. Once you whittle away all the variables like bad fuel, wick packing and other adjustments, the problem will also grow smaller I think.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't think mine is asbestos, it's more like calewool board, it's too white for asbestos.


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## SalM (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a link to some material that may be well suited for wick material. Other readers may know exactly which one you need..........hope this helps

http://www.mcmaster.com/?m=true#fle...on/=bk27ky


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## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

When I had this problem it was lack of draft. Put in a narrower blast pipe insert 

Better yet have charles and Ryan do an overhaul. The Accucraft GS 4 had several cumulative flaws to start with. At least mine did 

now it runs powerfully every time 

jim


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Posted By Jim Overland on 23 Mar 2011 02:03 PM 

Better yet have charles and Ryan do an overhaul. The Accucraft GS 4 had several cumulative flaws to start with. At least mine did 

now it runs powerfully every time 

jim 


Flaws or things that just could be improved upon if the operator wished?


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

I Went to home depot and got a new can of alcohol and fired up the g4, the pressure is at 40 t0 45 psi so I'm thinking that the fuel i was using maybe did have water in it,and if so how long till the wicks are completely water free?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By iceclimber on 23 Mar 2011 03:54 PM 

Posted By Jim Overland on 23 Mar 2011 02:03 PM 

Better yet have charles and Ryan do an overhaul. The Accucraft GS 4 had several cumulative flaws to start with. At least mine did 

now it runs powerfully every time 

jim 


Flaws or things that just could be improved upon if the operator wished? 
Jeremiah

Let us review....
[*]Backhead check valve problematic[*]Air infiltration in smokebox[*]Incorrect alignment and nozzle size[*]Baffle needed in firebox[*]axle pump modifications[*]dry pipe correction necessary[*]quartering of wheels thus timing issues[*]no lead or lap on valve setup[*]incorrect wicks[*]proper valve events via operational combination levers[*]bad superheater tube
[/list]You decide but one might want to have a perspective of operating an Aster GS4 (which has the "improvements" stock from factory) vs Accucraft GS4 (OEM alcohol fired).


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 23 Mar 2011 04:18 PM 
I Went to home depot and got a new can of alcohol and fired up the g4, the pressure is at 40 t0 45 psi so I'm thinking that the fuel i was using maybe did have water in it,and if so how long till the wicks are completely water free? Seems as if they still have some dampness with only 45 psi. Take them out and let them dry.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Metalman, 
I am not that familiar with this loco, so this might, or might not help!!! 
A few of my early Asters had a problem, in that the sump was 'sealed' to the floor of the tender, which in itself is okay. 
What happened a couple of times was that I filled, or even overfilled the water in the tender and some would slop over into the fuel tank area, and the only place it could go was down the sump. 
A little slop and the loco might limp along, but a major one and the fire would go out. 
Before you throw the old fuel away, you might want to explore if something like this might have happened to you. 
Also, at 45 psi, are the safety valves blowing? 
You can't always trust the pressure gauge! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

David 
the safety blow at about 60 psi, and no i have not checked to see if the water from the tender is overflowing into the fuel tank.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 23 Mar 2011 05:00 PM 
David 
the safety blow at about 60 psi, and no i have not checked to see if the water from the tender is overflowing into the fuel tank. 
A normal water stop should not result in overflow of H2O into the fuel tank based on the offset of the water compartment below the height of the fill cap and fuel tank cover(friction fit along with shape that water would roll off). One aspect of the alcohol and water can be due to humidity and/or keeping the cap off too long or not tight on the container.


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## Ding Dong (Sep 27, 2010)

Raule, you said you were getting a nice blue flame initially, so i'm kind of suprised that tainted fuel is the problem. Is your fuel line clear, there might be a partial blockage. 

Rob Meadows 

Los Angeles


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

Rob. 
yeah the tube is clear and you can see a good flow of alcohol passing through.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I’m sorry but you have never answered the question, is it an Aster or an Accucraft? The burner wick looks like an Aster but maybe the Accucraft has the same type of wick and burner. I know nothing of the Accucraft except the problems people keep bringing up. Also what I read here is that it ran just fine shortly before the problem occurred. There are only a few things that could change, poor grade fuel or a plugged line. You just said it was not a plugged line. How about a plugged blast pipe? Can you raise the pressure with a fan? What about having way too much water in the boiler and no steam room? Most of the time if you follow the basics you will solve the problem. You said it did work, so what changed? Did you see it work or are you taking someone else’s word for it? 

Or have I missed the whole point?


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Did this one fly off the track too?


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## themetalman (Jan 3, 2008)

the gs4 is a Accucraft and yes i did see it run, i ran it last and it worked fine i will just let the wicks dry out and see what happens in a couple days,and no Jeremiah this did not fly off my table radius on my track are to small to run the gs4 lucky for the locomotive huh. 










this was the last time i ran it about a year ago and it ran fine pulling 17 cars.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By themetalman on 23 Mar 2011 09:36 PM 

the gs4 is a Accucraft and yes i did see it run, i ran it last and it worked fine i will just let the wicks dry out and see what happens in a couple days,and no Jeremiah this did not fly off my table radius on my track are to small to run the gs4 lucky for the locomotive huh. 










this was the last time i ran it about a year ago and it ran fine pulling 17 cars. 

Unless those wicks were absolutly saturated with just H2O I doubt if letting them dry is gonna do anything. Adding good fuel would overwhelm any H2O left in the wicks. Poor alcohol would be anything less than 75 yo 80 percent alcohol or 20 to 25 percent water. So adding something like 90% alcohol (10% water) into fractions of an ounce of "wet" wicks would hardly affect the percentage of alcohol to water in the fresh fuel.

I don't know the fuel metering systeme on the Accucraft, but on the Aster there is a valve that can restrict the flow to the sump such that it can burn away faster than it drips into the sump. Make sure the fuel valve is fully open.

Also, if the engine is not level (or the tender is lower than the engine) then fuel cannot flow to the burners as easily and that can starve the fire (I had that problem when demoing my Aster engine one time... the "bench" was a door on sawhorses and not level... all I had to do was turn the engine around and it worked fine! Too bad I didn't figure that out until AFTER I had taken it apart to see what the problem was!).


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Check the wick canisters to be sure the "O" ring is allow a seal (Dan the Accucraft/Aster fuel wick setup is the same). Do you get a strong blower once off the fan? Prime the system so that water flows out of exhaust to ensure nothing is blocking it then suck a bit of water out of boiler to ensure steam collection. Take off the skyline casing and open the fill plug to see if the dry pipe is up into the steam collection area. Looking at the photo and the alcohol bottle...is the nozzle tip open? If so then moisture can be drawn into the bottle thus water accumulating into the alcohol (keep a plug in it or cover with it). 

Based on all the information seems to be either bad fuel, air infiltration, wicks, or blockage/superheater tube problem.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles - I was going to guess its the superheater tube. I think he describe it as it can build pressure on blower, but loses pressure underway. 

That sounds like the superheater tube to me.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

Does the Accucraft GS4 have a Type C boiler in it? How easy a fix is replacing the super heater tube? I am guessing some silver solder and a new tube? Or, is it often a clog of some sort that can be cleaned out?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeremiah
Done properly it should be replaced with a stainless steel tube to replace the OEM copper one. As to ease....depends on one's skill with repairs, bending stainless tubing and soldering. When we upgrade GS4's we replace the OEM units. 


As to superheater tube I recall when ours failed, just before it did could not keep pressure above 40 PSI but also heard an unusual sound in the boiler as a clue. Removed it and found the tube had split.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see. Could you explain briefly why stainless steel would be preferable to copper tubing for the super heater tube? Thanks again.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Simple aspect of thermal properties with stainless having a much higher melting point (25%) over copper. Then one could also consider that stainless is twice as strong.


Stainless steel has proven in thousands of applications, that it is one of the most economical solution's to combat the ever present elements that cause corrosion.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

That raises the question of why not stainless steel boilers? Cost or weight? I guess copper conducts heat quicker and more efficiently?


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeremiah, 
I would 'think' that copper is easier to work with and silver solder to make boilers. 
I would imagine that a complete stainless boiler might be harder to put together. 
But, maybe not. 
I'm sure that Charles, Ryan or Justin can give some ideas. 
I'm sure that it would be a lot more expensive for the material. 
Besides, we have been using copper boilers in our models for 100 years, so why change. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 24 Mar 2011 02:26 PM 
Jeremiah, 
I would 'think' that copper is easier to work with and silver solder to make boilers. 
I would imagine that a complete stainless boiler might be harder to put together. 
But, maybe not. 
I'm sure that Charles, Ryan or Justin can give some ideas. 
I'm sure that it would be a lot more expensive for the material. 
Besides, we have been using copper boilers in our models for 100 years, so why change. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 


Stainless Steel for a boiler is a subject that can create some widely differing opinions and heated arguments (too bad you can't get steam from that heat!)

Stainless Steel is subject to what is called "Hydrogen Embrittlement" caused by heat and chlorides in the water.

See the following for some of the discussions about it on the Chaski Machinist's Board "Live Steam" forum:

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...mp;t=87418

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...mp;t=82751

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...mp;t=50796

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...mp;t=39518

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist...mp;t=27849


Chlorine (purifying agent), Sodium Chloride (salt), Calcium Chloride (hard water) are all forms that are present in most water that is used in the larger boilers of the "Ride-on" scales. Stainless used in the steam piping seems to be allowable because the steam would not have the Chlorides in it.

Whether the use of distilled water negates the embrittlement problem, I am not qualified to address, but it seems to me that our use of distilled water in our miniature boilers would help reduce the problem. 

There are other reasons to not use it, such as it's poorer thermal conductivity, expense, etc.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The other notable concern; stainless is susceptible to cracking from internal stress corrosion when put to use in any crossed material situation.As with any build there can be problems with weld/soldering, the purity of the material and design. In practical application I have seen at the PLS club (and there is noted others) 
7.25 gauge locomotive K4 with a complete stainless steel boiler running (built in 2000) without boiler problem.


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

I see, I guess I only brought it up, since Charles said he used stainless steel tubing to replace the copper tubing for the super heater tube. That got me to thinking about the whole boiler then. Were the real boilers made of cast iron, or were they steel?

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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Jeremiah, 
You have to understand that the 'super heater' tube does not actually hold any pressure. 
I know, when the throttle is open, and before the cylinders move the tube must have boiler pressure, but it really just allows the steam to pass through to the cylinders. 
So since it is better in the heat than copper, and just needs a connection at each end, it works perfectly in this situation. 
Real boilers were just 'steel' or alloys of steel. 
I guess that they don't really rust on the inside as there is no air to react and cause rust. 
They do I guess rust and corrode over a period of time, which is why the tubes have to be replaced, or even the complete outer boiler. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## iceclimber (Aug 8, 2010)

David,
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. 
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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Beg to differ... if the superheater tubes have no pressure then the cylinders don't either! The only thing that would cause a variance in pressure throughout the whole system would be friction against the flow of steam and that results in the cylinders having slightly less pressure than the boiler, there being a pressure differential the length of the drypipe through the throttle and down to the cylinders. 

If the throttle is after the superheater (the most common arrangement in the real world) then the superheaters have the full boiler pressure all the time. 

If the throttle is ahead of the superheater (probably the most common arrangement on toy locos), then the superheater will have no pressure when the throttle is closed and will have full boiler pressure (save the loss due to friction) when the throttle is open. Again, if there were no pressure in the tubes, there could be no pressure in the cylinders to make the engine run.


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## Shay Gear Head (Jan 3, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Charlie Mynheir use stainless for his boilers all the time?


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## steamtom1 (Jan 2, 2008)

If I'm not mistaken, Charlie Mynhier's entire locomotive is machined out of a single block of stainless steel. But I could be wrong.

I think they are also powered with propane.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a prior MLS discussion on the outstanding work by Charlie:

Stainless steel locomotive


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