# Structure sub-wall materials



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm gradually moving from the roadbed & track phase to the "outfitting" stage of my layout, and wonder what the best substrate material would be for several large mine structures on the drawing board. Here's my parameters:

[*]Concrete foundation, separate buliding floor (acrylic?)[*]Plank-on-subwall (e.g., cedar strip planks)[*]No interior detailing; no stick-building[*]Window castings, with openings behind (I want them to illuminate from a simple light source)[*]Need to be strong and weather-resistant (rain, some snow -- MD)[*]One or two hinged roof panels (I'll be using the larger buildings as mini-sheds for props & etc.)[*]Cheap as possible, because there's a lot of these mine structures [/list] From what I've read, people have used the following for wall substrates (before applying planking or plastic):
[*]Exterior PT plywood ($, but prone to delamination)[*]Marine-greade plywood ($$, can delaminate from what I've heard)[*]Acrylic ($$$)[*]Corrugated plastic sign board (seems too flimsy for larger structures)[*]High-density foam ($$$, hard to get)[/list] So, here's the questions. Given my "parameters," is PT plywood the best choice? Or is there something better?

I'm planning on sealing the "box" and then applying the planking with Titebond III. Is that the way to go? Or is silicon better?

As for "planking," I'm toying with the idea of making strips out of cedar drawer liner, staining the strips slightly different, and gluing them on. Anyone done this? Or use veneer strips (or something cheaper than actual scale cedar planks)?

Probably asking too many questions at once, so I'll stop. Any corrections / comments welcome!!

===>Cliff


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

While there are quite a few buildings built from plywood of various types, which are in turn sealed inside and out for longevity, it really doesn't seem to hold up in many cases. For example Bruce Chandler not long ago posted about a rebuild of his "Miracle Chair Company" that you might find informative.

Buildings Forum/Topic: The End of Miracle Chair Company[/b]

As for building with using the sign board and such with large structures you might find the following two files helpful. They are a compilation of postings by MLS member Peter Bunce over the years in PDF file format, feel free to download a copy if you like.

Bunce's Buildings Vol. I - Peter Bunce (PDF 10.98MB)[/b]

Bunce's Buildings Vol. II - Peter Bunce (PDF 1.95MB)[/b]


Here's another topic discussing the use of Backer Board.

Track, Trestles, Bridges and Roadbed Forum/Topic: Backer- board discussion, Hardy Backer, etc....[/b]


Then there's a current topic over on LSC by Larry Mosher where he is building a rather large building using Azek and Sintra, pricey for sure but should hold up well over time.

LSC - USMC version 2 (factory building) - Larry Mosher[/b]


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, See my thread on this forum Buildings on the Zia & Columbine. I use the pink foam insulation board from Home Depot. It is cheap, light and stands up well. 
Buildings Forum/Topic: Buildings on the Zia and Columbine RR[/b] 


Buildings Forum.Topic: The first building for the Zia and Columbine RR[/b]

THE CHURCH AT TAOS PUEBLO (PDF 353KB)[/b]


----------



## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Some folks have had much better luck with the marine grade plywood, but not me.

Value your labor and you may reconsider the cost of the materials. Do you really want to rebuild these structures in 5 or 8 years?

I have had ZERO problems with my acrylic buildings. I'm in Northern Virginia and have a similar climate to Maryland.

I did this rather large one back in 2007, and it still looks good today. Not at all like my Miracle Chair company. I will never build with plywood again.


















More details on the construction are over here:
Matheson Textiles 

It doesn't have hinges, but the roof lifts off for access of up to 14 cars stored inside. Windows are made from hardware cloth placed in front of the acrylic.


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

I recently started using Sintra (pvc foam board) and really like it. It's not cheap but it's not insanely expensive. It's also super easy to work with (you can cut it with an x-acto knife), holds up well outdoors, comes in a variety of thicknesses and sizes, and you can easily glue styrene details to it. I get it online from this source: 

http://www.foamboardsource.com/sintra-pvc-foam--sintra-pvc-board.html


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

Here's another idea, while Dennis uses sheet metal as his substrate (i.e. he is in the metal fabrication business), however I don't see why MagicSculp[/b] couldn't be used on other media as well.

The following PDF files are of topics on various buildings modeled that Dennis has posted (sorry about the files still being in draft and not finished and polished). There is also a handout that Dennis gives when presenting his clinic at various Model Railroading events.









The Cooter Town Station (PDF 539KB)[/b]

The New Mashville Station (PDF 2.19MB)[/b]

Water Powered Mill Complex (PDF 2.50MB)[/b] 

Water Powered Mill II (PDF 1.95MB)[/b]

MagicSculp Clinic Handout (PDF 11MB)[/b]


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

Then there's Richard Smith's Port Orford Coast R.R. The following two PDF files are compilations of topics that Richard has posted over the years, which document the railroad's evolution. There are numerous examples of building construction methods demonstrated in both files, hope the information is found to be of use to you.









Port Orford Coast R.R. Vol. I (PDF 25MB)[/b]

Port Orford Coast R.R. Vol. II (PDF 23MB)[/b]


----------



## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff for what it is worth, I live close to the east coast of England (damp) I have thrown wooden based buildings away after two/ three years. I went to "plastic" 10 years ago and those buildings still stand. Corruflute, Polycarbonate and Polystyrene and anything of the same nature.
Can't remember who, but somebody on here did a great article on making plastic look like wood with some very basic tools.


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Cliff- I used plywood to build this sawmill for my Iron Island RR (there's a thread somewhere in the "Buildings" forum).
















It's been outside for a couple of years and has not suffered the unfortunate fate that others have (yet?). The carcass is made of plywood and all the faces and edges were sealed with exterior primer and paint. The building is "sided" in corroplast (probably the best use of political campaign signs ever). The corroplast siding protects the plywood just like real siding protects your house. The building sits on a foundation made from foam insulation board. This keeps it of off the ground and less prone to wicking up water. I live in Buffalo, NY and we get some snow, so all of my buildings get put away for the winter. I also have several large maple trees, so putting away the buildings in the fall helps me clear the layout of leaves. Time will only tell if the my building techniques will beat mother nature or not, but so far so good! Hope this helps.


-Kevin.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Wow!! Such a wealth of information, thanks so much Steve and everyone! I'll be taking my time to absorb it all.

Also, I'll put together a couple screen shots of the "worst case" model's I'm planning, in case that might modify an opinion or two.

Thanks!!!

===>Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Again, thanks SO MUCH for all your valuable input and links. I'll be working it.

A little background. I'm designing for the V&T RR, focusing on Virginia City and its mines. I'm sort of a history weenie for that topic. The plans are based on historical drawings & photos, but downscaled by 50% in plan view (and ~75% in elevation). Here's the two biggest models, starting with the Consolidated Virginia surface works (that's the most famous mine).










Then comes the physically largest (and grand daddy of the mines), the Ophir:










The Ophir complex is about 9 feet long. For frame of reference / scale, here's the setting:










Con Virginia in the foreground, Ophir inside that "C" in the middle. 

For a number of reasons, I don't want to reduce the size of these models further. But, I've painted myself into a corner in the materials department. That said, I'll probably only tackle one mine model per year, if that (and not this next year, because that's track-laying and electrical, God willing). There are 11 mines (or mills) involved, though these two will be the largest models.

But I wanted to have realistic expectations on the materials estimates; and with your input, I think I'll be able to. 

If you have any further comments, any are welcome!! I'll reiterate though that I want these suckers to last, and don't care about interiors. 

Sorry for not addressing each answer individually, but I appreciate every one! 

===> Cliff


----------



## Ray Dunakin (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow, those will be some really impressive structures when you get them done! Very cool project!


----------



## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff I look forwards to following your build. Very impressive so far.


----------



## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Great to see you back online, I love the progress since your last report. 
I have one suggestion based on your track plan and new buildings. 
You are going to need a passing siding at the Ophirs tipple for Con Va traffic. 
Also because of your open yard and the open range of possible furry visitors; paint of some details rather than applying fragile parts that will be taken away! 
Critters left to their own devices can be quite destructive, mine like to chew on plastic and they are not shy removing anything in their way. Smokestacks pulled off my sierra passenger cars for instance and a couple of half wheel brake wheels and their staffs laying on the ground.... 
We all look forward to seeing you complete your ambitious plans. 

Happy Rails 

John


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the kind remarks guys.

I've been reading through the posts and links; wow, awesome models! So here's some preliminary reactions.

When I originally mentioned "foam," I was referring to Precisionboard or Signfoam ( http://signfoam.com/index.html), both of which are fantastic -- but not cheap. I'd not thought at all about insulation board. So Winn, I found your methods really intriguing. Huge models, lightweight, nice detail, beautiful exteriors, cost effective. I'm looking into those materials, and sure enough, they are really inexpensive. 

About your pink foam board (pink = Owens Corning), was it the FormulaR product? I suppose the Dow equivalent (blue, Styrofoam) would do as well, as both are extruded (vs. expanded) polystyrene, if I'm understanding what you're using. It looks like these sheets can be reinforced with additional layers / blocks as needed. And I like the ability to use simple hand tools. 

The corrugated plastic roof idea is also interesting. I'd thought they would be too flimsy, but I suppose they can be doubled as well, if needed. I saw a site that sells the sign blanks real cheap, 24x24 for $2 (http://www.signoutfitters.com/BlankYardSigns.aspx). It looks like these materials go under the trade names of Coroplast and Stratocore. I tried to find something other than polypropylene, but no joy. How's your adhesive holding up, Winn?

Should add mention of the twinwall polycarbonate wall & roof panels, such as Sunlite or ThermaGlas (http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/...-8mm-clear). Not cheap, but darn strong.

Looked into the Sintra board Ray, and it's obvioulsy something to keep in mind. Thanks for that idea. I learned that similar products go under the names of Versacel (formerly called Trovicel, Celtec, and Komatex, if that helps anyone.

Finally, I really thought your routed-acrylic window method was great, Winn. Due to my large quantities involved (windows and doors), I was sort of dreading the need to cast them from resin. But your method appears to permit a mass production, at a level of detail suited to my situation. Again, how have your adhesives worked out? For that matter, have your cladding boards stayed put?

Thanks again all! 
===>Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey John, thanks!

Great point on that siding. Oddly though, the V&T's trackage there was arranged in that shared fashion. There was even at least one instance where the tipple was right on the main line. I'll have to ask the guys at the v&t historical society how operations were handled in these puzzling cases.

Yeah... critters. I wonder if they'll make short work of foam construction? Maybe mix in some cayenne pepper in the paint? I suppose they'll gnaw on anything... maybe I should put out a rack of materials for gnaw-testing. And I'm only half joking. Great point also on the reduction of small parts. The stacks will be of 1" PVC pipe or larger, or brass tube. Beyond that, I was hoping to use the structures as mini-sheds for any loose people & props. We'll see; I'm not sure how the plastic/foam construction works with removable or hinged rooves. Everything needs to be really secured, due to winds.

Take care,
===>Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Might as well come clean, and admit how stupidly ambitous my plans are, and the corner I've painted myself into







. But as my wife keeps reminding me, this is all for my retirement years (not too far away), and I'm just getting a jump start, ha ha. 

So here's the whole plan, illustrating the extent of the mines. 










The Con VA is right of center, the Ophir right of that. These mines (and a couple mills) have a combined footprint of about 130 square feet, and who knows how many 4x8 sheets of wall material. 

I'm SO RELIEVED that plywood isn't the answer, not only due to weather, but because of weight. E.g., the Con Va (with plywood) is ~174 lbs. I'd thought acrylic was the only other alternative, but its expense and weight were also a worry. Bruce, your models are wonderful! But thanks to the dialogue here, I guess it's clearer to me now that I'm not going for visible precision as much as visible volume. My models will be a several notches lower in quality vs. yours, Winn's, and others; but I think that will be ok for the bulk being represented. 

So I'm really hoping that a foam method can be made to work out; thanks to Winn's approach, I really feel hopeful. At this point in the research, I have a few more things to inquire about / plan for. 
[*]How to make a roof panel be removable (for lighting, storage, whatever)(perhaps by framing for a hatch, and using plex?)[*]How to secure the structure to the ground (for, say, 50mph wind gusts)(bricks seem cheesy, but obvious)[*]Reinforcing / blocking (for winds; I assume more internal foam)[*]Appropriate base material, and how secured (especially if the structure is held down by it)[*]Appropriate foundation (I've been assuming concrete, poured after conduit is laid...)[*]How to clad the structures (I've mentioned cedar; all these structures need to appear as if planked with vertical 1x12's -ish material)[/list] Well, that's about it for the moment. Hope everyone's having a great Thanksgiving.

====>Cliff


----------



## wigginsn (Jan 9, 2008)

This looks fantastic - watching with great interest Cliff. 

Cheers 
Neil


----------



## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll add a late reply. I've used 1/8" and 1/16" styrene to build my buildings. My feed mill is about 6' by 7' and I haven't had problems with the styrene holding up outdoors. 

















Craig


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Cliff, I'll try to answer your questions. By the way your building plans look fantastic! Yes, the pink foam is what I use, but the blue stuff is the same thing. It was just easier for me to get the pink. The long walls are braced with on the inside with perpendicular pieces of foam. On my Alvarado hotel for the sub-roof I am using a tempered Masonite product which has a white waterproof coating one side, for use on shower or tub surounds. It is only 1/8 inch thick but quite sturdy. It will be covered with vacuum formed tile from Ozark Miniatures. The Masonite would probably be better than the corrogated plastic for hinged or lift up roofs. On the station I have had some problems with a few pieces of the wood warping and coming patially unglued. I didn't paint the wood on both sides before gluing to the foam. I think that sealing well might help to reduce moisture absorbsion and warping. The panel glue works quite well for assembling the foam but is hard to compress to get a nice thin joint. Titebond III works very well if the joints don't have any gaps and is water proof if not sitting in water. Latex caulk seems to work well for attaching detail such as windows and doors and comes in various colors which can match the paint. I also use urethane caulk for attaching siding. I use the foam for the base of the models as it does not absorb water and seems to be impervious to bugs. I have have had no problems with the buildings blow around even in winds aproching 50MPH. If you are concerned about that you could put some bricks inside. My buildings are either sitting on dirt or on crusher fines over landscape cloth. The later don't get so dirty from mud splashes. I hope this helps. I'll be happy to try to answer any additional questions you might have.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Craig, your model looks great. Do you have a pic of an in-place finished model, e.g., of your feed mill? 

Winn, thanks for the further info. Sounds like you're using melamine (sp)? Have to look into that, and ask more questions tomorrow. 

Just had T-day dinner... tryptophan setting in.... getting very sleepy... gotta make it look like I'm watching the 'Skins v. Dallas game, and not tick off my mother-in-law due to lack of interest... zzzzz 

==--x/Cjff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sorry for drifting off, I'm recovered now. Pretty good game too, I explected Dallas to cream the 'Skins.  

Winn, thanks again for the kind reply and further advice on adhesives & etc. About that coated masonite, it sounds like this: 
http://www.lowes.com/pd_16605-46498...&pl=1¤tURL=?Ntt=tempered+hardboard&facetInfo= 

Also, I'm going to need shingles, to stay roughly prototypical. In a recent issue of GR, a guy was using shingles made from (upside-down) Formica strips. Now, I'd thought Formica was laminated Kraft paper; so does anyone know if it really holds up outdoors? Especially upside down? If so, it might bond well to the hardboard, with silicone. 

Regardless, I'd be a concerned about warping of the Masonite, and eventual water intrusion. I've got a bunch of it outside (for concrete forms), and it eventually breaks down. Winn, how are you sealing any exposed edges? 

About your base Winn, do you go to any extra trouble to seal the seams there? 

One last comment about adhesives, I wonder if styrene sheets / etc. solvent-bond well to extruded polystyrene foam? I ask because I could picture a styrene angle around the top inner wall edges (or a series of short angle brackets), to serve as a fastener or hinge opportunity for a removable roof panel. 

My next step I guess is to set up the pattern drawings from the CAD models, locate a large-scale plotting service, and start cutting foam. I'd like to lightly spray-mount the full-size patterns onto the foam, and cut the pieces out directly with hand tools. That would be a huge time-saver, if it works... 

To be continued... 
===>Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another thought. Those polystyrene drop-ceiling light panels (2'x4') are cheap (~$7). I suppose they could be (solvent?) bonded to the (polystyrene) foam, and scribed like wood planks per the method in the latest GR (p. 69). Maybe even cut those first, bond to the foam sheets, and use as cutting guides; then wrap corners with styrene angles. Would take time, but it should stand up well. Any advice, anyone, re. material compatibility?


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Another thought. Those polystyrene drop-ceiling light panels (2'x4') are cheap (~$7). I suppose they could be (solvent?) bonded to the (polystyrene) foam (smooth side out), and scribed like wood planks per the method in the latest GR (p. 69) --- IF they are smooth enough; gotta check. Maybe even cut those first, bond to the foam sheets, and use as cutting guides; then wrap corners with styrene angles. Would take time, but it should stand up well. Any advice, anyone, re. material compatibility?


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, Yes that looks like what I used. Make sure it is the very dark brown stuff as I have seen some Masonite that was called "tempered" that was a lighter color that didn't seem very water proof. I put a piece of the stuff I used in water and let it sit for a couple of days with no apparent swelling or or other damage. It did turn the water brown so there is some leaching but I would guess that if covered by some roofing as tile, shingles or corrogated tin that it would last for a very long time. Formica is pretty much impervious to water. 

I don't think solvent bonding would work very well on foam but I have never tried it. If you try it let us know how it works. I have used latex caulk and urethane caulk for gluing styrene to foam and they seem to work fairly well. As for the base, I just glued the seams with the panel glue (I use Loctite Power Grab molding and panel glue that comes in caulking gun tubes) and then painted the surface with an outdoor latex acrilic paint. 

For attaching a hinged roof I would recommend gluing a wood strip to the foam and screwing hinges to that. I don't know if you noted that I also use sheet rock screws to hold the foam pieces together while the glue is drying. I leave them in.


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm late to the party but one large building I'm doing, Grist Mill. I had the same concern about flimsy walls from Coroplast. Which is what I prefer. Its very cheap about this time of year. I got a lot from the local Political Office that they were throwing away. 

I went to my local Menards and found a Polycarbonate product similar to coroplast. I have seen them use it as panels for greenhouses. Anyways I think i paid $20 for a 4' x 8' piece of the stuff. It is very rigid and I dont have any problem with the walls. Plus with a 4 x 8 piece of it I can make several buildings with it.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good call Winn, a wood frame interface seems a no-brainer. 

From what I gather, the tempered "hardboards" vary in how much pressure they're subjected to in the manufacture. So I'll be looking out for that better "masonite." Thanks for that tip, and your further info on adhesives. 

Hey Jake, good to see you. I went to M's site, and the polycarbonate panels were priced $60 on up for those twin-wall, square-void, 4x8 panels -- similar to Lowe's and Home Depot's offerings. Do you recall the trade name of the stuff you got from Menard's?


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

This is interesting, a 4'x8' sheet of .03 styrene for $18.20 (plus shipping): 

http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Styrene_Hi_Impact/HISWHT-0304896 

They have other sizes / thickness as well. Point being, that this should be bondable to the polystyrene foam, and be scribed for simulated wood and perhaps corner-capped with styrene angle (as mentioned prior). 

Just having fun fishin', 
===>Cliff


----------



## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

I happened to go to Menards. 

I was off on the price, they are $40 at my local store. I rationalized the cost based off what it costs to buy a building and I can make a lot of buildings out of the 4 x 8 sheet. The stuff I got is made by AmeriLux, its called "MultiLite: 6mm Twin Wall Polycarbonate Multiwall Sheet."


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Cliff- Solvent glues and blue/pink insulation foam don't play well together (ask me how I know!). However, Loctite Power grab (mentioned earlier) should do the job. There is also a solvent free contact cement that might work. I have not tried it myself, but I've heard rumors that it will not attack foam. I've used some of that cheap 2 x 4 ceiling panel light grid plastic to make a roof for an old beat up Pola building that I was fixing/ Americanizing. It worked out pretty well. 


-Kevin.


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like pretty good prices on plastics but watch out for the shipping cost! Cut in smaller pieces and it looks like the cost goes down considerally.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Kevin, sounds like the voice of experience. But I'll bite. What were you doing, and what went wrong? What particular kind of foam, plastic & solvent were you using? Just curious.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By placitassteam on 23 Nov 2012 09:15 PM 
Looks like pretty good prices on plastics but watch out for the shipping cost! Cut in smaller pieces and it looks like the cost goes down considerally. 
You're right. I just emailed them to see if .03 4'x8' sheets can be rolled up for shipping.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Posted By jake3404 on 23 Nov 2012 03:33 PM 
I happened to go to Menards. 

I was off on the price, they are $40 at my local store. I rationalized the cost based off what it costs to buy a building and I can make a lot of buildings out of the 4 x 8 sheet. The stuff I got is made by AmeriLux, its called "MultiLite: 6mm Twin Wall Polycarbonate Multiwall Sheet." 

That's still a much cheaper price than I've located. Thanks for the trade name, Jake.


----------



## Burl (Jan 2, 2008)

You're right. I just emailed them to see if .03 4'x8' sheets can be rolled up for shipping.

I have had .030" and .040" sheets shipped to me from USPlastics and they roll and unroll just fine. But, a word of caution: thicker stock (like .100") may not ever lay completely flat again if you have it rolled and shipped.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Good confirmation, Burl, and good tip. And I just noted that, on the eplastics item page, the thinner stocks (.06 max) do get rolled for shipping. 

So I did a little comparision between them and Evergreen. 5 4'x8' x .030 sheets from EP, with (estimated) shipping, was $.79/sq ft. Evergreen's "economy pack" of 4 8"x21" x .030 sheets (without shipping) was about $2.59. With .060: $1.31 vs $5.19.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

As part of my material hunting, I've been looking into shingle-related threads here, and came across several that used Permastik tread tape. I'd rather have something more like shakes, but I found something that might be of use to someone wanting the asphalt look. So here's a product similar to Permastik: http://www.safetydirectamerica.com/Anti-Slip-Tapes.html. Nice thing about this tape is the broader color selection, and the price ($12 for 60 feet, in the 1" width). The "Aqua Safe" tape is good on boats, is less rough, and comes in beige, white, grey, etc.

For wood shakes though, using individual shingles (formica, cedar) seems too time-consuming, and formed Precision sheets are too $$ for the areas involved. So I'm toying with the idea of using the same approach as in the above method (strip stock, w/ periodic slits going half-way), only with .03 styrene. Anyone have a better idea for relatively quick & cheap shakes? Or an idea on semi-automating the slitting process? (On that last point, I'm picturing a hand-cranked pair of rollers, as in an old-fashioned clothes wringer, with 1 drum having slightly-protruding blades that make the slits).

===>Cliff


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

Cliff- I discovered the infamous foam eating glue while building a viaduct for my RR (theres a thread in "Bridges" forum. See "Viaduct for Iron Island RR). I used DAP contact cement to glue up some blue insulation board foam. The label said safe for foam. Luckily, I glued up a piece of scrap first. Sure enough... it attacked the foam. Why???? Because, in my haste to get started, I didn't read the entire directions!!!! If I had read the entire directions, I would have noticed that it was safe on foam but not safe for styro foam. Oh well, live and learn. Since then, I have learned about the non- solvent based contact cement. As for the viaduct, I ended up using a construction adhesive type glue. It's stays outside year round and is holding up perfectly. Good luck with your project. 


-Kevin.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Kevin, you've confirmed what Winn was indicating; so between the two of you, I'll take it as gospel that the solvent path leads to destruction and dissolution.









Thanks for steering me straight, and saving me time in splurgatory!!

Cliff


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's something interesting, on the styrene front. Eplastics has the 4'x8' .06 sheet for $34, which they can roll up for shipping: 
http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Styrene_Hi_Impact/HISWHT-0604896 

However, Home Depot has a 2'x4' .06 sheet for $7 (no shipping)... 
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&keyword=styrene&storeId=10051#specifications 

Four of those babies = cheaper. Have to stop by and check 'em out....


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

As a bit of a foot note, and after a couple months of slapping my garage shop into shape, I'd like to post a pic or two.

To save a lot of time in measuring, I made up some wall pattern drawings in AutoCad and had them printed 1:1. The biggest plots I could arrange were 32" x 96". Here is one of those sheets, spray-mounted to a foam board (I elected to go with 1" foam).











I did the main cuts on a small band saw, but needed something different for all those windows. So I mounted a jigsaw beneath a 1x12, with only the blade poking upward. This I clamped to a Workmate sawhorse. Worked great! I'll probably use this method from here on out.

Anyway, today I got the various bits cut out. Several needed bevelling, which the band saw was great for.












Here are the main pieces stood up together, just to see how things looked.











So, it's a start. 

===Cliff


----------



## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff

Now that's downright impressive, you're off to a great start.


----------



## dieseldude (Apr 21, 2009)

An awesome start!!! 


-Kevin.


----------



## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliff, Where did you end up getting the foam? And what did you use for glue?


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Steve and Kevin, thanks for the kind affirmations! 

Jim, the foam is the 1" Lowes stuff, about $17 per sheet. It's the same as Green Guard brand, but with the Lowes logo. Haven't glued anything together yet, but Winn recommended the Loctite Powergrab. If you meant glue for the patterns, it was a 3M spray mount.... let me know if you need more specifics. The spray mount did attack the foam some, so I went lightly. 

Just to clarify, I think Winn was using the 1/2" foam. But since I'm worried more about sticks dropping than appearances past the window glazing, I went with the 1".


----------



## NavyTech (Aug 2, 2008)

I am looking forward to see how this turns out. curious to see what glue you use to hold it all together. Looks fantastic so far.


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

It took a while to get back to this, but in May I finally did some adhesive testing and model assembly.

After doing up several sample boards, using various materials and adhesives, I decided on Loctite PL 3X.










I was intending on PVC for roof boards (change of mind from prior posts), styrene for sheathing and acrylic for not sure.

Now, I'd looked for Loctite Powergrab, but couldn't find it at Lowes or Home Depot. Contacted Loctite, they said it wasn't sold in (The People's Republic of) Maryland. But then I saw it at the corner hardware store. Go figure! So I bought some, but haven't tested it against the PL 3X (which is more expensive).

Then I assembled the actual foam bits. It was really run! 































Next was cutting the roof panels. I used 1/8" PVC foam board, but it seems too flimsy for the larger pieces. I'll either laminate or brace, we'll see. Here's some of the cutting process...











The patterns were from the original batch I'd gotten printed full-size. I've not assembled these yet.

The only other bit of progress actually was a big relief to me: finding a source of cheap styrene, for all the sheathing. I'd found a good deal on the 'net, but the cutting & shipping was a show-stopper. The place I got the PVC foam board from was an hour and $6 in tolls away. But after looking more (and more), I found a company very close to where I work. They had 4'x8' sheets of .04 styrene for about $21, real cheap! So I bout two, and that should do me for quite a while. They rolled and packed it for me:










So that's where things stand for the moment. I'm kinda focused on track laying, so it might be a while until I get back to this model. But I wanted to get the thread up to date. 

Thanks for looking,

====>Cliffy


----------



## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Cliffy, That is looking real nice! I am not familiar with PL 3X, is that its name? Who makes it? I have found that if the joints are nice and tight that TiteBond III works quite well and it is easier to get joints nice and thin than with the Loctite panel glue. The Loctite is good if the joints have gaps. Keep up the good work!


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Winn, 
I'll have to give the TBIII a shot. The PL 3X is a Loctite product. 
Thanks for the compliments, and all the help!! 
===>Cliffy


----------

