# Skew Climax gears......again?



## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I see a thread back in 2010 about skew gears for a Climax, with a fellow offering to make 10 sets. I'm working on a 1:20.3 using my Bachman as a reference. Making gears is way beyond my capability! I've ordered a set of LGB spoke wheels to try and get a starting point. I see Kozo's book offers a setup for using standard bevels gears which may, in the end, have to be the solution. I've spent a few nights on the net searching to no avail. I made the gear box with a right and left brass helical gear(s). So, I'd be grateful for any current ideas,thoughts, or references. Bill


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

a fellow offering to make 10 sets 
That 'fellow' (David Bailey) has now retired and his son has taken over the business. 

The Google results are full of details of how to make skew-cut bevels. Maybe your local machine shop can make you some? Or ask a supplier of gears for r/c cars?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont think that ever came to as I was on the list for a set of parts. 

As to how to oversome the issue, you can cheat and use straight gears and only drive the inner axle and chain drive the trucks together. Boston gear has some usable parts for that. Another option is to check with Mike Chaney in the UK to see if he happens to have any left over parts for his Climax. There are no commercial parts available to use. Though some fishing reels have brass skew bevel gears though you would have to find what ones then buy 4 of them for the parts. 

I have a set of skew bevel gears that might be able to be cast in brass??? Contact me offline if you want to look into it. I know that the casting would be clean enough for the lower RPM and regular use. DJB gears were cast also I think and required some cleanup for meshing.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I went to my LHS yesterday and went through their huge supply of gears, but no skew gears. I've heard of the fishing reel theory but unless one know a brand/ model no., I don't know how to search, most of the suppliers seem to start with the brand. I did try to search that. I've spent so many hours so far, I'd like to stay 'scale' if possible.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Kovacjr on 20 Oct 2012 10:49 AM 
There are no commercial parts available to use. 

Jason,
I would imagine that there must be helical gear sets available for this use, somewhere.
Certainly I have one catalogue that lists helical gears that can be used at right angles. 
It shows a 48 normal pitch in stainless, but maybe thats too fine.
I know that my Brother in the UK seems to fit them to various electric powered locomotives, but not sure where he gets them.
I would search the internet, and you should find something I would think.
How about this outfit, they will custom make your gears for you:
http://www.rushgears.com/Gear_Types/helicalGears.php
I wonder how much? 
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I used the repro Meccano 211 helical gears for the box. There is a slightly smaller model but I've only found them listed as originals....rather pricey. Even so, I fear they would be too high. Other than 'pure' skew gears, the next design would be the new 'Spiroid' design. Haven't found a source as yet. Seems at this point the gears are the show stopper. But I shall keep trying to find the solution. I'll follow up with Jason's idea.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By Cap'nBill on 20 Oct 2012 03:59 PM 
Other than 'pure' skew gears

Is a 'skew' gear not the same as a 'helical' gear?
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I guess my best explanation is that the helical gears essentially sit on top of one another at right angles such that one axle....axis...would be higher. The skew allows an axle's pinion to cross closer keeping the profile lower. The idea was the skew or slanted cuts would carry a larger load. If you look up 'spiroid', there are some pics from the designer that I think explaains far better than I can. Gears are a whole other world of math and design than I can explain. I just ordered a copy of the book by Law(?) on gears to try and learn something. Bill


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, 
I'm currently working on Kozo's Climax as well...I'm following Ed Hume's method to build it in 1:20.3. Have you seen any of his work making the gears? http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/11/aft/56650/Default.aspx 

I have many projects in the works, but I'm still hopeful I will try to make the gears. Just a thought, if you continue to search for "skewed bevel gears" try changing your query to "hypoid bevel gear" as I believe this to be the more proper term.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with the gears needed is not that you cant find them. I looked everywhere for a replacement gear for my Aster climax to give it a higher gearing and the problem is getting the small dia needed to fit out scale. The next problem is getting the gearing I wanted. The smallest gears were all larger then the wheels in the trucks so unless I decided to make a 1" Climax making them is the only way. It's why Mike Chaney ended up making his when he built the Climax as he also could not source the proper gear. 

The smallest pinion gear I found was about 3/4" dia. Ring gears were all about 1.75-2" or so Many offered to do custon gears but you honestly dont want to know how much. There are only 4 -5 makers that have the machines to make a skew/hypoid bevel gear.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I saw some gears on ebay(Makita) that I thought would work, but as mentioned, they are too large for a small version. I have limited machinery and would have to buy stuff to try this myself. I suppose if one already knewhow to make 'standard' gears, attempting skew gears would not seem so daunting. I recall looking at the Hume pics awhile back.....justifies a re-look. I had bought some car gears and sketched out the Kozo alternative design. I may proceed with that approach and continue looking into the skew issue. I ordered the Law book 'Gears and Gear Cutting' to try and learn something.
Bill


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I KNOW that it's not prototypical, but how about using miter and bevel gears? 
Have the drive shaft connect to the 'outside' of the truck with one gear, and then a separate shaft connecting to the miter and bevels on both axles. 
It would at least solve the height problem. 
Just a thought. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I guess what you're suggesting is much like Kozo's alternate. Think of a car differential turned sideways. He uses two.....let's say brass boxes, one for each axle. The front has the main bevel gear on the axle with 2 pinion gears. The rear pinion has a shaft running back to the second 'box', driving the rear pinion and in turn the 2nd axle's bevel gear. Let me try and post a pic. Bill


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Gives an idea of the Kozo alternative:
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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

That's exactly what I had in mind. 
I am not familiar with the Kozo book, so I guess he had the same thoughts! 
Make sure that you get the ring gears the correct way round, as you show it. 
I remember hearing of someone who carefully built something similar for electric traction and somehow over thought it, and put both ring gears on the same side. 
Needless to say, it didn't want to go very far just spinning it's wheels!!!! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

When I built my A-Climax several years ago, Vance Bass found some skew bevel gears for me in a surplus store. I think he mentioned they were spares from a Tamiya R/C car (though I never found them in a spares catalog). Here is how they look:



Modern hypoid gears just don't look right and building a Climax with normal bevel gears is like ripping the soul out of the loco. However there is an alternative: Baldwin built a Climax look-alike which had only standard spur and bevel gears.
Regards


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Lucky guy! I'll try searching the Tamaya stuff. Maybe the Steam Gods will look kindly on me........................then again.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

How about something like this? 
http://tinyurl.com/95ftpcm 
Maybe time for a trip to your local (if you have one) r/c car shop. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

David-- 

I cannot tell for sure from the photo but it looks like that is essentially a bevel gear with skewed (or twisted) and curved teeth. the Climax gears are machined differently so that they mesh when the axis of the drive shaft passes above the driven axle. the teeth on the drive pinion are basically straight like a plain bevel gear, the teeth on the driven gear are skewed to account for the offset of the matching pinion the gear ratio on my Aster climax look like 3 or 4 to one. 

PIC Design inc has spiral gears of similar geometry but like a worm gear they seem to have high gear ratios and would not perform the same as the gears the climax uses. It may be possible to use the "crown gear" along with a standard bevel gear or better yet a bevel gear with some twist to the teeth, but I could not be sure of finding the right matching set. you could possibly modify the gear profile with a needle file in a pinch, not perfect but should work well enough if you are careful with your file.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Good info! Indeed, another trip to the LHS! That ring gear looks like it might have possibilities. I see ebay has several versions, but no referenceas to their size. I'll update after my hobby shop trip.


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## Michael Glavin (Jan 2, 2009)

Bill

Take a look here...

Spiral angle bevel gears

Pictures here, click on the pic's for links

Michael


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

After searching 'til I'm crosseyed, I think we're talking about (small/miniature) hypoid bevel gears. I think skew gears make sense to old Climax guys, I think modern applications probably are better defined by hypoid gears where the axes are not parallel or at 90 degrees. The bevel ring teeth may be 'skewed' but that doesn't mean the pinion.....in sets......can be 'offset'. The pinion, I think, is more like a worm gear. If a proper sized, cheap skewed ring gear could be obtained...like racing car......,aproper 'worm' gear might be fashioned,modified, etc. Other opinions, ideas, explanations sought! Bill


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

I would suggest that the bevel or skew type gears 'should' allow the loco to be pushed when not running, and also when running and the steam is shut off, they will allow the loco to 'free wheel' so to speak. 
The more you get towards a worm gear, the less likely this is to happen and maybe jamming up of things. 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## ChrisBerry (Feb 9, 2010)

Dear Bill, 

I'm planning on making a Class A Climax of the 'shed on wheels' variety. I have, like you, struggled through the concept of how to make/steal/blag/buy the gears. 

Does the Accucraft Climax have real skew bevel gears? (If not why not). I wrote to them asking if they would release Climax trucks in the same way that they recently sold Shay trucks ($300), but to no avail. I guess if lots of people asked they might run off some, but so far no joy. Just the gears would be a real help........ 

Ed Hulme's photos are a real inspiration. But he seems to throw a lot of technology at the problem. If someone with that equipment would like to do a run of gears in a semi-commercial sense I would sign up, subject to cost. But there is a lot of time involved. 

Redbeard made a Ruby Heisler which he reported on in this forum. He essentially used a form of straight bevel gears much the same as the 'alternative Kozo' method of producing Climax trucks - in my mind not really satisfactory for a Climax. 

So, I may have a crack at producing the gears a la Kozo/Hulme, but with help from a friend who used to build clocks........... 

In the meantime I'm playing around with T boilers and working out if I can turn an old pair of Ruby Cylinders into a Climax marine engine - watch this space. 

But if you come up with an alternative, let me know! 

Very best of luck, 

Chris


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

If memory serves correctly, old slot car gears were made like this...probably not 100% accurate for the Climax, but a reasonable alternative...might be worth a search for dealers selling vintage slot car stuff....a few years ago I obtained a set for use making a governor drive on a stationary steam engine.

Here is a link to a web site with an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.ejshobbies.com/Classic+slot+cars.htm

Fourth item down...they call it a "bevel gear set", available in several ratios. ID on this particular offering is a bit small, but could be openned up easily enough....I'm sure there must be several dealers with loads of old gears they would LOVE to sell....not a glamor item, so should not be expensive to purchase.

If somebody finds a "Mother Lode" of gears, let all of us know!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

old slot car gears were made like this 
Cliff, Michael, 
Spiral Angle Bevel Gears are fine, but they are still at 90 deg to the axle shaft. My slot cars had (have) bevel gears, but not skew-ed shafts. 

The Climax needs a spiral bevel with a skew shaft alignment, so the drive shaft can pass over the axle to the next axle. Here's a neat pic


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

"Redbeard made a Ruby Heisler which he reported on in this forum. He essentially used a form of straight bevel gears much the same as the 'alternative Kozo' method of producing Climax trucks - in my mind not really satisfactory for a Climax."

Since my Ruby-Heisler build was brought up, I am going to chime in here. I used R/C car ring and pinions for my trucks, but remember that the Heisler uses one ring and pinion per truck and then uses side rods on the drivers to turn the other axle.The Climax uses a ring gear on each axle with a drive shaft that is parallel to the axle but above it. The "skew cut" gears allow the pinion gear to be mounted above the center line of the axle. It is possible to build a Climax style truck using ordinary ring and pinion gears as the OP posted about twelve posts up, but since the pinions have to be on the same centerline as the axle you would need two pinion supports on each side of the drive shaft end of the truck. As I can tell you - there is not a lot of room between the axles for two support brackets. Here is a picture of the Heisler style trucks I built.









I only have Kozo's Heisler book so I do not know what the "alternative method" is, but if the Climax book is for a ride-on size loco, scaling down to garden size things will get tight quickly in between the axles. 

Larry


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

If there is interest I will get a quote to have the sprial bevel gear set I have cast and a mold made. They would be cast in Brass, which is really all is needed for G1. It is a 3 or 4:1 ratio And will work with a Gauge 1 Climax.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cap'nBill on 21 Oct 2012 12:53 PM 
Gives an idea of the Kozo alternative:
http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/...vediff.jpg" target="_blank">







http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/...vediff.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">


Kozo made two versions of the Climax. This was the first version. For the center gear he used a 1:1 helix gear. 


Edit: Should have read the post first.


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## Garry Paine (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, Do you have any pics of your spiral gear set? Thanks, Garrett


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Just checked my Mike Chaney Climax...it appears the smaller bevel gear has straight tooth gear form, and it is the crown gear on each axle that has skewed gear tooth form....makes sense now, I had not thought about it before. 

Don't think you would want the skew on the smaller bevel gear...potential to act as a worm and not roll easily. 

Jason, I believe the gears you have are identical to these, right?...Will lost wax investment casting hold tolerance close enough to make running gears without machining?...would be a cheaper way to obtain a small quantity of gears for sure.


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

Jason, sure looks like it is worth checking out. Maybe a "who wants..." thread would give some idea how many takers there might be. Bill


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes Cliff, thats the gears I have. The mold will keep tolerance of the mesh with a little cleanup. I know another buy that cast the gears and it just required some filing with needle file to smooth out the mesh.

I cant imagine that the gears would be expensive. Guessing under 70.00 for the set of 4 pair if there was enough interest. Id first have to send a sample to my caster and see what he things about 1 or 2 molds and mass of the large gear. 

I can base the pricing on 5 sets of gears. Meaning 5 people need to come foward. You can email me direct


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## David BaileyK27 (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason, when I made my Climax gears I used a straight cut pinion, I made the large skew bevel by turning a blank with a soft modelling clay insert, I meshed the gears at the correct dimension and made the impression into the clay while revolving the two gears, I used the "cut blank" to make a mold for lost wax casting, a jig was required for machining the bore of the bevel gear to get it to run concentric, all the sets were then run in on a jig in the Lathe. 
I made about 200 sets like this. 
David Bailey


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I made about 200 sets 
I was just about to ask if anyone had emailed DJB about them . . . 

I also wanted to mention that there are spiral cut and stright cut bevels out there in r/c car land. Tower Hobbies has gears of all kinds, including complete sets for differentials. 
And it is possible to take a spiral-cut gear and mesh it with a straight cut one. Running it in with polishing compound can smooth off the corners and result in a pair of smooth-meshing gears. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bi...;search=GO


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## Cap'nBill (Dec 27, 2008)

I spent probably an hour at the LHS going through gears. They specialize in RC cars so had literally hundreds.....but nothing usable. The guy was very helpful and tried to scale the Losi ring gear mentioned above and it appears to be way too big. I got the LGB spoke wheels today..a total waste of money! To small and look like tacky wagon wheels, personally, I never saw the fascination with LGB stuff. Our local club has bunches of pieces in the backroom not working. Doesn't appear the Bachmann Climax wheels can be bought, so I guess it's buy a Sparky and disassemble or make your own. Looks like Jason's casting solution is the most workable at this point.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Doesn't appear the Bachmann Climax wheels can be bought, so I guess it's buy a Sparky and disassemble or make your own. 
There are several wheels suppliers in the UK - G1MRA has a list. Slaters has a bunch of good-looking spoked wheels.


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## Shaymaker (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By clifforddward on 22 Oct 2012 05:26 PM 
Just checked my Mike Chaney Climax...it appears the smaller bevel gear has straight tooth gear form, and it is the crown gear on each axle that has skewed gear tooth form....makes sense now, I had not thought about it before.

If you look again, you'll see that both gears are skewed and they come in left and right handed sets. In order to make these gears, I had to modify my Taiwan miller for CNC. It came in useful later for making a lot of the other parts you might assume were castings.

Mike Chaney


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification Mike...obviously I didn't look at those gears closely enough! 

As a point of reference, I find I am constantly learning from the details you incorporated into the Climax. I'm making a water gauge now, having discovered by trying a couple of commercial units that the one you made for your Climax is a better design than any of them! I am unashamedly copying the details of your water gauge as I have never had a problem with it not reading correctly.

All the Best,Cliff


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## Shaymaker (Feb 15, 2008)

Posted By clifforddward on 26 Oct 2012 01:07 PM 

I am unashamedly copying the details of your water gauge as I have never had a problem with it not reading correctly.

All the Best,
Cliff 

*As I'm now retired, I doubt I could find the energy to sue you







* 

*Mike*


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Mike - How is that Garret coming along you were finally getting to build for yourself?


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Jason, 
I'd be interested in buying some cast gears from you. (I tried to use the email form on your site, but I couldn't get past the "catchya" ). 
Jeff


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

I have 3D CADD drawing in stp format of some real 12" to the foot scale Climax Bevel Skew Gears if anyone is interested. Climax Pattern No. 217 for the Pinion Gear (16 tooth)(same pattern was used for the horned and plain pinion gear) and Pattern No. 509 for the Ring Gear (41 tooth). These were developed from original Climax drawings to match those on CN 1551. They can be scaled if you have a 3D CADD program. 

You may reach me at [email protected]


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

I now have Bevel Skew Pinion gears available at cost of reproduction in 1.5" (8th In. Scale). Note the the prices are Shapeways prices without add ons. Other venders may provide significant savings. I am looking and so should you. Other scales available on request. Use the Shapeways site as a catalog of what is available and contact me if you have special needs. All items are in 3D CADD and can be modified and scaled as needed. If you have any questions contact me. 

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/ClimaxShop


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_Thought this might fit an existing thread rather than starting a new one._


I recently was looking for some gears similar to the bevels I used to install on slot cars, and I found a guy on eBay selling old Tradeship "hypoid" bevel gear sets.













https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slot-Car-P...132953?hash=item3d8aa5e519:g:7qsAAOSwJ5dcc2GX


These seem to be less than 1" in diameter, and the pinion shaft fits neatly under/over the axle shaft. He has several more sets for sale.


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

These seem to be the gears Vance Bass got for my A-Climax many years ago! I always thought they were manufactured by Tamiya. Now I know. Thanks for the link.


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

I have posted a 2D pdf drawing of 70 Ton Class C Climax 1551 at the below address which is in 1 : 24 Scale (requires 36" x 48" Arch E available at some FedEx Stores if printed as is). Scale as you will. I chose the scale to pop the details for those rivet counters among you (if any), although the transition from 3D to 2D has failed to display some rivets correctly or at all. If you have a REALLY big wall to display as a wall hanging, you are one of the few.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/SIMONTON/1551+(9-26-2019).pdf


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## HMeinhold (Jan 2, 2008)

WES,
thanks for posting your incredible drawings. Do you plan on documenting the restoration of the A-Climax, once (when?) it returns from Alaska?
Regards


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

I am thinking about it. Cass was 200 miles - 4 hours. Corry is 330 or 365 miles (6 hours either way). At Cass I had free lodging at the Terry House. Lots of unknowns at this time.

I have learned that the Class A wood frames were Southern Yellow Pine.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

WES said:


> I have posted a 2D pdf drawing of 70 Ton Class C Climax 1551 at the below address which is in 1 : 24 Scale (requires 36" x 48" Arch E available at some FedEx Stores if printed as is). Scale as you will. I chose the scale to pop the details for those rivet counters among you (if any), although the transition from 3D to 2D has failed to display some rivets correctly or at all. If you have a REALLY big wall to display as a wall hanging, you are one of the few.
> 
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/SIMONTON/1551+(9-26-2019).pdf


Awesome. Maybe I need a print of that on my wall.


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## WES (Oct 31, 2012)

I have just posted a corrected cleaned up version of the drawing - same link address https://s3.amazonaws.com/SIMONTON/1551+(9-26-2019).pdf


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