# Aster C&S #22 - Pointers needed



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I just acquired this complicated beast and I am hoping someone can point me at information about the issues and problems that need to be resolved.










It is an interesting model, with a tender pump and gas pipe to the loco. There are 2 gas tanks - the tender holds butane and has a glass viewing port (first one I've seen,) and an 'expansion tank' in the cab. 2 gas valves! I've heard that the expansion tank can be removed for more reliable operation.










It has been fitted with r/c and that seems to work. The supplier sent me some new O-rings for the gas pipe, but they wouldn't fit - I almost wasted a tank of butane trying to get it to seal.

This, btw, is why it desperately needs quick-connect fittings from Jason at TTD. Both the water and the gas connect to the the locomotive with manual bango-type bolts, which are very stiff to rotate, despite a little oil on the O-rings. I did find a thick rubber washer to seal the gas pipe.










But still needed major help to get it undone!










I have the kit instructions and drawings in PDF form [can send if anyone needs them] which is quite helpful - the whistle is broken off so I had to find how the dome was held on.
I was bemused by the little black roof fitting (it's top center in the 2nd pic.) It turns out to be connected to a safety valve on top of the boiler in the cab - despite there being a safety under the dome in front of the cab as well.

The first pic was taken at my first steam test on Jerry's SC&M RR. It did manage to move 3ft under its own power, but the O-ring issue was obviously causing gas leaks. I put it on rollers this morning, and found that the rear safety weeps at very low pressure, so that will have to come off and be adjusted.
In addition, there's a 'blow-down' valve under the boiler; totally inaccessible, but presumably usable when the loco is cold to empty it. I (foolishly) opened it and then turned it back with a screwdriver, and I thought it was leaking. However, I hen noticed steam emitting from the cab as it got up to as much pressure as it could, and there was water running down the waterglass, probably from the top joint. That may have been the source of water underneath.

So, off comes the cab and we start rehabilitating various bits. If anyone can offer any insight about these problems, or others, I am all ears.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

It just occurred to me that it has planty of steel M2 bolts on the backhead. On the Reno they go right through into the water and rust away. Does anyone know if they go through into the boiler, or just in to the fitting?


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Pete, C&S22 is a great loco. Yes, it has two safety valves and a blow-down valve. There is no need to remove the expansion tank in the cab, you just need to learn how to use it. The steam valve goes all through the boiler. If the loco has been stored dry, I do not think there should be any problem with rusting. I did have a case of blow-down valve rusting away though. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I think the 22 could use with simplifying the gas firing system, the whole cab expansion tank over complicates what should be a very simple system like any other tender mounted gas tank/butane gas fired model. I remember many guys getting rid of that expansion tank set up for a simple set up much like the Frank S has or something from Accucraft. But to each is own, some figured out the tricks to run the stock set up and thats ok to. This engine is on my future wish list.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, you would have to rework the entire gas supply system. If I remember correctly, the valve is at the bottom of the tender gas tank and it is likely to send liquid butane to the jet if connected directly. This is why the expansion tank is useful. The trick to using it is to fully open the valve on the expansion tank and regulate the gas supply using the valve on the tender tank. The valves are very sensitive so start with a very very tiny opening of the tender gas tank to light the fire through the stack and then just follow the standard procedures. But remember to keep the expansion tank valve fully open! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Hence why the whole system would get a rework, its been done as some do not care for the original set up. To each his own.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> , you would have to rework the entire gas supply system.


I did have a brief conversation with Ryan at Howard Cty and he mentioned those points. From the diagrams, I would think you could remove the tank valve and bottom seal and then run a copper tube to to the top to collect gas instead of liquid. Seal the pipe in the bottom of course and use the valve off the expansion tank to feed the jet.

Actually I haven't had any problems with the gas, but thanks for the tips, Zubi. I may leave it alone while I address the leaks.


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Pete...This engine is far too complicated to sort out...better that you just sell it to me and be done...HaHa, just a joke. Congratulations on the wonderful add to your roster...I know you are glad to have it...I know I'd be happy to have it in mine!
Hope to see you at a steam-up in the not-too-distant future,
Cliff


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

clifforddward said:


> better that you just sell it to me


I don't think so.  But if something more amazing turns up, you never know. . .

I did have a moment to fire it up today without the cab to see where the leaks are. The top joint on the water glass is the culprit (or one of them.) I added the red arrow to show the steam escaping.










When I got it back on the bench, it doesn't look as if the top and bottom fittings are in line. I wonder if it got bashed in transit. Good job I got the kit instructions!


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## clifforddward (Jan 2, 2008)

Ouch...those fittings are certainly out of line. This one seems to happen to me on most older engines I acquire....you should be able to sort it out easily enough, after which the seal will hopefully be better.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

clifforddward said:


> after which the seal will hopefully be better.


If I can get it to seal at all!


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

If it got bashed in shipping, you may need a new gauge glass once you open it up. Hopefully you got lucky and the top fo the glass is broken inside the gland nut. Still one neat locomotive and not one seen all that often.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Toney said:


> you got lucky and the top fo the glass is broken inside the gland nut.


Unfortunately not - it broke right at the nut.










There might be enough pipe in the bottom to jury-rig a fix, but I ordered some 6mm tube from Jason anyway.

I then realized that there was still water in the boiler, and there was an air hole at the top and nothing to stop the water leaking out the bottom of the sight glass whenever I moved the locomotive!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Edit, Nevermind...carry on


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

rbednarik said:


> Think you'll find 6mm may be a smidge too big for the C&S Mogul. As originally fitted they were a 5mm sight glass.


Ryan,
I'm measuring 0.234" which is pretty close to 6mm. I do have some 5mm Accucraft glass but it is clearly smaller and won't seal as well. And I think mine is original - every time I move a bolt the paper gasket fails.

The top of the upper fitting came out and lets me thread the water pump rod through (just like the instructions say) but the gasket died. I had to use a corner of a $1.










P.S. I bought some Permatix high-temp (red) gasket maker this morning. I have used it on several locos, including all the gaskets for an Aster 8550, with great success.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, 0.234in, if you are exact is 5.9436mm. The thing about glass, doesn't take excess force very well.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick Jr said:


> Pete, 0.234in, if you are exact is 5.9436mm. The thing about glass, doesn't take excess force very well.


Nick, the glass is 0.236" which is 6mm. The brass pump handle, which they tell you to use to align the top and bottom fittings, is 0.234".

I had noticed that glass can be fragile.  That's why I keep a spare piece of 5mm (and now 6mm) tube on hand.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, since you didn't state the 0.234 was the pump handle I took it to be the opening of the site glass nut or sleeve. If too tight just a slightly uneven heat expansion of the boiler or fitting will cause even tempered or borosilicate to crack. You'll find out on the first firing, and I'm sure you'll post if successful.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

I just unearthed silk screens which I used several years ago to print correct lettering on my black C&S mogul.
The silk screens have been made by a fellow live steam enthusiast at Mitaka (Kichijoji Kitaura) live steam club, I no longer recall his name. He made them from drawings kindly produced by our postdoc Ken Kiyono from photos of the original number 22 which I supplied. I then applied the screens using mighty strong white two component paint and solvent which I believe could solve anything! An incredibly difficult technique giving great results when correctly applied. Those were the days...!! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

zubi said:


> I just unearthed silk screens which I used several years ago to print correct lettering on my black C&S mogul.


Zubi, that's amazing. There used to be a guy here in the USofA who silk screened his decals (Robert ?) and I used several, including a special set for EBT #7 "Aughwick". He's retired now.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The new water glass turned up from TTD so I cut it to length and fitted it. The banjo bolt on the manifold had been leaking so I unscrewed it and found it had no paper washer (or maybe it disappeared in the last 20 years.) I noticed I had a couple of fiber washers in my bag and they were the right size, so I fitted them in the 2 places that leaked - top of the manifold and top of the water/sight glass.










Then I pumped back in the water that had been emptied when I removed the water glass after the last test (that water is now on its 3rd re-use cycle,) and fired up. Success - well sort of.










A decent pressure building up and no sign of leaks. However, the rear safety valve on the back of the boiler started spewing immediately and I had to keep tapping it down. (remember the "Best Friend of Charleston"?)
So I will have to find a new valve or take this one apart and clean the seal and fit a new spring.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

And the photo above brings up my next question. If the pressure gauge is kg/cm3 then what is each big black mark? 1kg/cm3? [Which should be about 15 psi?]


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

As usual, Ryan had the answers to my questions.


> Safety valve is adjustable (you can use the roundhouse tool or just grind your own from an old flat blade screw driver.


(Just like you do to make a Ronson gas valve removal tool !) I found I had some very small tweezers so a little filing to flatten the ends and it fits:










The valve was a bit stiff, but a drop of 3-in-1 loosened it up. 


> Pressure gauge reads KG/cm2, which is close to BAR (atmospheres) in pressure. 1 bar=15 psi, 2=30, 3=45, 4=60. The safety should lift somewhere between 3-4 bar (or kg/cm2).


Another steam test is called for this afternoon. Work gloves will be needed to adjust the safety while it is blowing steam at me.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

A couple of days ago I ran 3 or 4 steam tests to set the safety valves and see if anything else leaked. With both valves screwed in, I got 2+ kg/cm3 or about 30+ psi showing on the gauge, and it ran on the rollers.
However, there were steam leaks at various banjo bolts on the top end - when it got bumped and the water glass broke, several joints moved, and the 20+ yr old paper gaskets now leak. The top fitting on the water glass leaked too, even though they were considerably more than finger tight. I figured I would have to dismantle it all and use Permatex "gasket maker". I used hi-temp red on a JNR 8550 kit a few years ago (because I lost the paper gaskets that came in the kit.  )
Tearing it apart meant I could get at the rear safety valve. I already figured that, since most other locos get by with just one, I could ditch this and keep it as a spare. So with the manifold off, I dug out an M5 bolt and set it in the hole, which had a silicon washer in it suggesting it might have been 'fixed' in the past. We will see if it works. (In the photo, the hole is for the manifold.)










Here's the components with the red 'gasket maker' in place. You but a bead all round the surface, squeeze it finger tight so the sealant oozes out, then you clean it off and leave it for an hour before final tightening. Then leave it another 24 hours to cure.










And finally, for anyone interested, here's the upper water glass seal.










The 2 thin washers are the ones that came out - one doesn't look great, and may have been scraped by the broken glass. The thick one on the left would have been my preference but it didn't want to go in the nut. For now I put a little sealant around the glass and tightened it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Today was steam test number 6 (?7). I think I used about a gallon of distilled water and a whole can of butane gas just getting it steam-tight.

The first attempt with the gasket-maker worked except on the top of the manifold. The banjo bolt has a curve, 










and the manifold has a large hole, so there wasn't much flat surface for the gasket.
(Why do banjo bolts have the curve?)

Anyway, I punched a hole in a dollar bill and made a paper gasket, covered both sides with permatex, and left it all to set again.










This time it was a success. I had also adjusted the remaining safety valve and it did not leak, and 'pop'ped off at about 45 psi.










Now to put it all back together so it can go to the Finger Lakes Live Steamers steam-up next weekend!


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

That all looks good, Pete. Maybe you need to test it on a real layout before you go to New York. 
The SC&M is back from vacation..........

Jerry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Progress has been made, but other problems have surfaced. A run on Saturday at the Paradise East steam-up was uneventful, except for the glitch/stopping issue described below.










I have acquired a Regner Goodall valve from Jason, and it will be fitted where the back safety valve used to be - hopefully there will be room. With the roof hatch modified to open, I'll be able to fill the boiler without the tender pump or the pipe feed.

Then yesterday we had an issue with the gas feed pipe, which demonstrated why you do NOT want an expansion tank. While trying to light it, the flame managed to ignite gas in the cab as it was leaking from the pipe. This was liquid gas under pressure and it burned the servo wires and left soot everywhere. I did manage to turn both valves off in the middle of the inferno.
I shortened the gas pipe a little but I'm looking for a replacement. I have some tube but it is thicker so I will have to find my stash of pipe clips.

Here's my run with some new C&S cars. The servo wires weren't destroyed, but I will have to think about some new ones, and a new receiver - you can see the glitching as the throttle rotates even though your finger is firmly on the TX stick!










The problem that surfaced since I started running is that, after 5-10 minutes, when it is thoroughly hot, the loco stops for no apparent reason. It's not the r/c glitching - I can see the throttle hasn't moved nor the reverser. Reversing and then going back to forward doesn't help, but a firm push gets the loco moving again. It happens more than once a lap around the layout.

It seems unlikely to be valve timing, as, if it were, then it wouldn't start running again. Anyone seen anything like this before?


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete,
Could it be binding in the drive train. I had an electric that did the same thing, turned out that when in a particular position the drive train would lock up. Was much worse than yours as I had to physically pick up the loco and wobble the wheels until I got it out of that position. Would then run for a while until that particular position occurred again. Took a while to track it down.


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## ferroequinologist (May 8, 2016)

Pete , see if one of the piston rods has moved out of the crosshead a bit as you might have a piston getting so close to the cylinder end it traps steam/water and stops. I had a similar problem with one of my loco's and it just got worse quickly and totally stopped until not in steam. Can sometimes be easily noticeable by the number of threads visable on the piston rod when comparing the good side with the bad side. I carefully unscrewed, as much as I could, the piston rod then cleaned it and applied some Loctite then screwed the rod back in as far as it would go matching the other side.
But then again it could be valve timing, a slightly loose slide valve maybe or a semi loose eccentric? Being a slide valve engine it's easy to get the covers off to check, have you got the Aster manual for timing?
Good luck with it as when running they are a great engine with a powerful exhaust beat.
Russell


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Rich, Russell, thanks for the suggestions. I shelved the loco for a week or two after the fire and after all the work trying to persuade it to behave. Besides solving the 'stop' issue, I have to replace the receiver with a 2.4Ghz that doesn't need a tall antenna (!) and think seriously about dealing with the gas pipe. Rob had one at the steam-up and his has the modified gas setup, with the valve on the top of the tank and no expansion tank. I am thinking of running a tube up inside so I can keep the gas pipe at a low level.
And yes, I have the manual and the drawings.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Time to update the gas fuel system to one that does not use the expansion tank. I still think Aster made that way overcomplicated, another version of them "overthinking" the gas firing design. Just as on the Frank S, which really should have its gas tank in locomotive cab to allow the boiler heat to keep it warm, just as most all side tank narrow gauge models do from other brands. Instead of going with the flow and using a common design, Aster went off on a rabbit trail design on the Mogul. But....I still want one someday! Keep at it Pete, you will conquer the old girl.


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

zubi said:


> I just unearthed silk screens which I used several years ago to print correct lettering on my black C&S mogul.
> The silk screens have been made by a fellow live steam enthusiast at Mitaka (Kichijoji Kitaura) live steam club, I no longer recall his name. He made them from drawings kindly produced by our postdoc Ken Kiyono from photos of the original number 22 which I supplied. I then applied the screens using mighty strong white two component paint and solvent which I believe could solve anything! An incredibly difficult technique giving great results when correctly applied. Those were the days...!! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
> View attachment 62038
> View attachment 62039
> ...


Not to derail this thread but could you share how this silk screening is done?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, back to work on this mess. The to-do list includes improving the water feed, revising the reverser servo linkage, changing the gas feed to get rid of the expansion tank, swapping the receiver to a 2.4Ghz version, and then investigating the dead-stop problem further.

I had noticed that Rob's loco had a copper pipe on the engine feeding the check valve, so I did that first. Much easier to make a quick-connect if one side is fixed and not floppy. I did have to swap ends, as you can't solder the female as it has o-rings, etc. Here's the result, ready for the black paint.










I took the cab back off and removed the blank fitting I had installed instead of the second safety, and screwed in the Regner Goodall, which is M3 also.










A tight fit against the pressure gauge (which has stopped working since the cab fire.)
Then I cut off the cab hatch - it refused to de-solder, and with the 4 little round pits I wonder if it is welded.










The hatch was cleaned up and 2 alignment brass pieces added - a wide front and a simple rear to keep it in place.










Then a quick spray of satin black 'paint+primer' on the roof and the hatch made it look good again. (You can just see the little round pits I mentioned.)










Time for a steam test of the tender pump feed and the Goodall. First problem was that the throttle is directly below the safety mount.










The Regner Goodall has a little sprung valve in the bottom which pops out when you pump water in - if there is room for it to move. I had to fit a spacing washer to lift the Goodall up to clear the throttle when open.

The other thing I found on the second test, where the Goodall and tender pump worked fine, was that the quick-connect dis-connected at full pressure. I guess the old check valve is letting some water past it and pressure is building, as the tender pump has a similar check valve.










That made me wonder exactly what pressure it was getting to, so I checked the photos as it is almost impossible to get low enough to see the top of the gauge (bending it back would help.) I had turned down the first safety to the point that it was blowing at 5 bar: that's about 70 psi. Oops.  I turned the safety adjust again to lower the pressure, and I think a new gauge is called for.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

[I'm posting these 2 sagas to avoid having to go back and solve the problems. . .]
OK. Reversing. I noticed the lever has a very long travel, and the servo wasn't pushing it all the way forward. I had also noticed that the throttle was jittery even though the radio TX was close. I am very familiar with 'metal-to-metal' contact interference on these old radios, so it is possible the jitteriness is making the servo glitch and close the reverser enough to make the loco come to a dead stop. (Hence the need for a new radio!)










The darned lever is 2-3" long, so the servo has to move it about 1.5" inside the cab. I spent an afternoon playing with the existing servo, but despite extending the servo arm and moving the servo I couldn't get good forward movement without hitting the cab front, and it wouldn't go back far enough.

Then I had an idea - the servo looked awfully big. I dug into my box and found a new Hitec HS-65HB. It's a bit smaller!










(You can just see the old servo on the right has 2 arm extensions. Long enough to move the reverser but also long enough to foul the cab front.)

Here's a couple of pics of the range that the servo has to handle. Forward gear:










Reverse:










So since deciding to go with the Hitec, I've been experimenting with possible mounting positions, as it doesn't have to go on top of the water glass where the big one was fitted. At the moment, the throttle servo is behind the water glass, so if I mount it where shown above I will have to move the throttle servo.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Dedicated to all of you who like Aster's C&S22 as Aster intended it:




Enjoy, Zubi


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

EDIT: see post #38, thank you.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

fsts2k said:


> Not to derail this thread but could you share how this silk screening is done?


fsts2k, sorry for the delay, I did not monitor this thread (or the entire MLS for that matter). Some helpful information about silk screen printing can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_printing#Printing_technique The screens were prepared by a friend of mine using the lettering which I provided (obtained from several existing photos of the prototype by applying quite complex mathematical procedure to ensure maximum correspondence to the originals on the actual #22). The application of the silk screens (i.e. painting) was performed by myself - this was far from easy. I practiced a lot in order to get the pressure distribution even in one go. There is no way to correct the result so it has to be done in one perfect move. Of course positioning the screen on the model has to be perfect too. I used professional two component paint and a solvent which appeared to solve anything - I have never seen anything like this - I guess it kills within minutes if swallowed... All these were provided by the friend of mine who at the time worked in the printing business. I learned a lot by doing this project, you can see the result in the video in my previous message in this thread. Zubi


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

For those as myself not familiar with the locomotive, I stumbled across this article written by a very knowledgeable and widely read fellow train enthusiast. loco84.html. enjoy.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> OK. Reversing. I noticed the lever has a very long travel, and the servo wasn't pushing it all the way forward. I had also noticed that the throttle was jittery even though the radio TX was close. I am very familiar with 'metal-to-metal' contact interference on these old radios, so it is possible the jitteriness is making the servo glitch and close the reverser enough to make the loco come to a dead stop. (Hence the need for a new radio!)


A couple of thoughts - jitter is sometimes a power supply issue - as the servo activates, it pulls down the voltage which causes the radio to glitch. The fix is to use 5 1.2V rechargeable cells for 6V rather than the more usual 4.8v supply. 

One very useful addition to any RC setup is a Servo Travel Tuner. These cost about $20 and sit between the receiver and the servo - they allow you adjust the end-points and the mid-point of the servo throw.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

And we're back from a warm winter in Florida without a #22 to work on. 

I had a brain-wave, and decided there was no need for radio control initially, so I could run it without and see how it worked for a while. I stripped off the few bits remaining and put it on the rollers. Worked fine, except the reverser wouldn't stay in position. It's all nicely loose but the lever needs to stay were it is. I tried various types of wire and finally inserted some 1/32nd brass around the shaft and twisted it together.










I then went back and re-read this thread so I'd remember what I was doing! Should be able to run at the end of the week at the Tuckahoe Stream & Gas Show.


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Nick, the glass is 0.236" which is 6mm. The brass pump handle, which they tell you to use to align the top and bottom fittings, is 0.234".
> 
> I had noticed that glass can be fragile.  That's why I keep a spare piece of 5mm (and now 6mm) tube on hand.


I've used teflon plumbers tape rather than o-rings on the water level glass to good effect. You roll it into a string and then put a few wraps around the glass before tightening the gland nut.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Another frustrating event.






Despite the video making it look as if all was well, that was just the first curve after pulling out of the yard on Mike's portable track.
After the curve it stopped, as the reversing lever moved back - my twisted brass wire hadn't worked. It will have to have a new piece in the cab with detents forcing the lever to stay in place.

Then, while trying to persuade my small tweezers to work as a jamming device, I noticed I was out of gas. I had filled the tank up to 1/2 way and this was about 10 minutes later. Must be leaking. Yep - when I refilled it I got a small butane fire in the cab. The pipe to the expansion tank must not seal properly - although there could be another leak.

As I couldn't persuade the lever to stay in place, and as the gas left as fast as I filled it, that was the end of my run.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

This weeks small job, between all the others, was to make the detent work and keep the reverser in place.
I did look through my file of illustrations and found there was a detent part once:










Which explains the 2 holes I found in just the right place!

A small piece of brass 3/4" tall was the ticket. Here's a trial of the fit.










And with a couple of slots and some judicious bends:










I wonder where the original part went. Presumably the guy who installed the r/c kept it.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

On to the gas system. I started dismantling, hoping to get at the inside via the output banjo on the bottom. Couldn't even get it off, so I basically had to dismantle the whole tender.










I still can't find any way to get in from the bottom, but the gas torch should help.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

As the topic of modifying the gas feed on an Aster C&S #22 is (imho) important, I'm starting a new thread. Onced the gas is working I may return to this for the general stuff, like adding r/c in the wide open space where the expansion tank used to be.
Aster C&S #22 2-6-0 gas supply conversion


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