# FAKE ROCKS/PAINT OR DYE



## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If you were going to make  fake rocks for a  canyon  do you think it is better to dye the  concretemix or   paint it later?

I am going to use a mixture of  stucco mix with  portland cement mix.   Do you think I should dye the mix or just put it on and use  outdoor paint later.?


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## Duncan (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ, 
I'd start with dye in the mix, and then touch up the accents with paint...


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Another way JJ is to have a sprayer bottle full of Ferrous Oxide (Azalea plant food)  on hand, and when the mortar mix starts to go off, spray it on . It will look green at first, but will dry to a sandy red. It will look garish at first, but weathers down.
Rod


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## sheepdog (Jan 2, 2008)

Ummmmm....... Errr.... Ron, please explain 'goes off'.  

Craig


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Paint, definitely. Plain old latex house paint works great. Also artist's craft paint works well.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Dye in the mix followed by spray paints.


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## Rod Fearnley (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig when the mortar/cement starts to harden up. I suppose it depends on the temperature where you are/ here i would leave it for about 3 or 4 hours. Although I have left it longer.
I t will give an over all cover, then you can go back and highlight with other  mediums.
Rod.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Tod 
Thanks for the Pic's   They are a really great help.   You  gave me a couple Ideas with your rocks.   They look great.   I am inspired/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

JJ,
First put dye in the concrete, then use some flat tan, green, brown, and black to add interest.  Here is a fake rock I have.  
















Embankment with concrete. 
JimC.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By John J on 05/27/2008 9:37 PM
Hey Tod 
Thanks for the Pic's   They are a really great help.   You  gave me a couple Ideas with your rocks.   They look great.   I am inspired/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif

Thanks.  In addition to the colors mentions, I use various greys and  I use red primer to match the red lava.  I also paint the real lava to blend it.  This shows after it weathers somewhat.  I usually give it a shot of color every few years.


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## Richard Smith (Jan 2, 2008)

Or.... 

You could plant real rocks.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Richard.
Real rocs is  what I am doing.   Except in some places I need  a long sting of rocks  like  in Tod's pic's   Home depot  only had   Red  Tan  brown Dye

Lowes had  a whole bunch of color dye.   So I bought  two bags of everything  from both places.   I am going to experiment mixing color t his weekend.

It's a shame they just dont have  Red Blue Yellow and Black dye...It would be much easier for me ( working in the printing industry) to  mix the exact color I want.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By John J on 05/28/2008 7:51 PM
Hey Richard.
Real rocs is  what I am doing.   Except in some places I need  a long sting of rocks  like  in Tod's pic's   

To do the ridgeline, I used a hand spade to cut the existing slope to a verticle slope.  I then pounded stakes into the ground along the ridge and attached 1/2" wire mesh to the stakes.  I left about 1" between the soil and mesh and after mixing dye into mortar mix, scooped it into the space between the hill and the mesh.

I held crinkled up aluminum foil up to the outside of the mesh and let the mix squeeze through the holes into the crinkled foil.  Make sure the mesh is covered and let it dry for a bit and pull the foil off.  In some areas the foil may pull away some of your mortar leaving a rought finish, but this makes the most natural looking rock.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Teee heeee Teee Heee  

I am off  to Cosco to  get  Industrial  Resturant  Foil.    The heavy stuff.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

John i read a article about using alum foil and the writer said he spryed the foil with a cooking spray like pam before placing it over the cement. We are going to try and make some mts this summer on our layout useing the chicken wire method with strips of burlap soaked in the cement mixture. Then you apply morter over the burlap and do your molding as the morter starts to setup. Say what you are going to do and doing it are one thing but doing it is another anyway we are going to attemp to make some mts and fake rock walls. Good luck with your project/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

I favor painting faux rocks myself.










White latex outdoor paint to seal it...










Then paint to suit...










Can be interesting going from this:










To the final result:










Some tips here:

1stclass.mylargescale.com/tj-lee/Trains%20-%20Building%20Scenery%20-%20Cliffs%20Rev%2001-01-08.pdf

Best,
TJ


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Tj we started our fake rock wall this morning. we put down some chicken wire covered it with burlap soaked in gulapata. Gulapata is a mixture of ready mix mortar,fire clay,hydrated lime and portland cement it is a mixture that i read about in garden railway mag. Jack Verducci wrote the article.We only had time to do about four or five ft. If the weather holds out we will try to do the sculpting tomorrow. We are taking pictures of our progress and as soon as i learn how to post them i will show what we are doing. PS my back is killing me and we have just started.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, 

> Tj we started our fake rock wall this morning 

CONGRATULATIONS! Getting started is most important step in any Large Scale project. I'm familiar with Jack's "gulapata" although I've not worked with it myself. Since in my area plastic cement is readily available I decided to stick with that and forgo having to mix different stuff together. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of your progress! 

Best, 
TJ


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Well we worked on the base coat that being we finished putting the burlap soaked in the gulapata the one problem that i ran into was that the amount of ingredients that he used was on a large scale. By that i mean he used 60lbs of mortar mix with the other ingredients. I was making the gulapata in a very small amount compared to how much jack made in one batch there for i had to guess ah mate how much of the different ingredients to mix together. Tomorrow will tell what i end up with.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, 

> the one problem that i ran into was that the amount of ingredients that he used was on a large scale 

Yah, that was my problem with Jack's method. I found Gary's method easier but for that you need plastic cement and it's not available in all areas of the country. 

Good luck! Looking forward to your posting pictures of your efforts. 

best, 
TJ


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Me too   I am looking forward to your pis's     Jim Shut and I  got into THE FAIRPLEX  layout  early sunday morning  when we were at  THE BIG TRAIN SHOW.


It was very interesting  some of the things they did.   They gave me Ideas  for my layout.   So  I will be glad to see your results so I can apply your method to  what I want to do.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok today my wife and myself almost finished putting the chicken wire where it needs to go to get ready for the burlap/cement . Hopefuly next week we will start laying the burlap on the rest of the layout. Then the next step is to start the frame for our mts/tunnel. There will be one mountain with one tunnel curving through it and a second tunnel that will just go about three feet and stop that one will be a mine entrance. That being said i think i need a back transplant. The old bones are aching. Damn it,s not fun getting old.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, 

> Damn it,s not fun getting old. 

Agree with you on that! If it wasn't for the alternative I wouldn't do it. 

Best, 
TJ


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok here are some of the pictures of the work my wife and myself have accomplished so far


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

ok here are some more pic


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

one more sorry this is my first time posting pictures. We are still building the form for the mountin and tunnel. The form will be done today and we hope to apply the burlap/cement tomorrow/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Bruce Ambrose of Canyon Creations did a demonstration at the 2008 garden railways Convention in Chandler this year. He uses both paints and stains. Each has it's advantages and disavantages. Since you are not in Arizona if you talk nice to him he might give you some pointers. He's at [email protected] phone 602-790-4668.  By the way this seams like a good subject for a video or DVD.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are a few pic of work today


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomorrow we hope to add the burlap/cement mixture


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Where is everyone getting the burlap?   There is a  fabric store here in Phoenix  that has a lot of  UPOLSTRY supplies.  Like  Burlap  webing.  I wonder if that will work.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think it will work. We got ours at lowes it come in a three ft wide by twenty-five ft long rolls for around ten or twelve dollars. My wife and myself have about three days of work in on this project so far and i think we still have another three or four days of covering the chicken wire before we can start putting down the cement to form the mountains. We are hopeing to have this whole thing done by the end of this fall.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

her are a few pic of todays burlap/cement work


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

And the rest of todays work


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, 

Looking very good! 

Best, 
TJ


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

I would definitely recommend adding coloring to the mortar or cement.  Make it dark when it is wet because it will dry to a lighter color.  I did a dark black but it dries to a gray color.  Nothing worse than a light colored cement when you don't want it to be noticeable.

I also bought the kitchen tool below to make striations on the rocks.  I haven't  tried it yet but it certainly looks like the right tool.


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/9/postid/36650/view/topic/Default.aspx
These mountains are all colored after the cement dries, the stone paint in the spray cans at Lowes and other places really works well also, I use the sand mix, for my mountains.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you have any pictures of your mountain and rock formation being made or what method you used.Like i said before what you have done will inspire others.


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## dglasgow (Jul 3, 2008)

First i would start with dye in the mix and then i would use paint.


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

On our fake mountains we added dye to the cement and then sprayed an acid over the wet cement to add the color of different rocks the acid made a BIG difference here are a few pictures. The firs pic is just cement/burlap over chicken wire The second is cement with dye added and the last is the acid sprayed over the died cement


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

What type of acid did you spray? 

Also was it deluted or full strength?


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## pete (Jan 2, 2008)

John it is called lithochrome and the company that markets it is chemstain classic. The two colors that we used were faded terracotta and dark walnut the acid reacts different to what type of cement you are using. If you want to give me a phone number where i can call you i can tell you more about the stuff. It,s easy to use i sprayed bottle to apply it.


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## hans911 (Jan 9, 2008)

I used old sheets as well as burlap dipped in concrete and layed over chicken wire. It is not an exact science by any means. I then used acrylic paints watered down to do a wash in a few different colors/shades to see if I could get close to the desired effect. It was a bit of trial and error for sure. Just start and see what you get. 
In looking back I would have liked to add a bit more details to the rocks using something like Joel Bragdons foam technique with molds. He demonstrated this at a show I attended and it was really impressive. Though it will cost you more.

Here are some photos of my "rock work" 

Before acrylic paints....






















After painting.....


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey Hans That is a interesting process. It really looks great after you painted. I am going to try it along with some of the other ideas in this thread.

I am glad you posted I think this thread will be a help to a lot of people


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By hans911 on 11/10/2008 11:16 PM
I used old sheets as well as burlap dipped in concrete and layed over chicken wire. It is not an exact science by any means. I then used acrylic paints watered down to do a wash in a few different colors/shades to see if I could get close to the desired effect. It was a bit of trial and error for sure. Just start and see what you get. 
In looking back I would have liked to add a bit more details to the rocks using something like Joel Bragdons foam technique with molds. He demonstrated this at a show I attended and it was really impressive. Though it will cost you more.

Here are some photos of my "rock work" 

Before acrylic paints....






















After painting.....


























Cool, when do you host the club?


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

TJ I've got your PDF (thanks again by the way) but still not clear on a couple of techniques you used. What is a "wash"? Paint thinned with water or really light applications. Love the multi-color rock that went from a 70's acid dream to very realistic. 

Alan W.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

A wash is paint thinned with water. It's not an exact science; but for starters, try thinning it to where you can brush some onto newspaper, and still read the print through the paint.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Yeah, yeah, I know: News... what?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Alan. 
Washes are diluted with water as stated above, I used spray bottles to apply. You should also have a spray bottle with diluted india ink. When spayed on wet enough to run it will darken your cracks and give depth. Use after color. 
Don't try to paint it on, random sprays overlapping. You can always add more so go lightly. 
Less is more, let it dry before you go darker. 

I use 'wet' water to make my washes, a drop of Ivory detergent per gallon of water, the soap helps break surface tension and eliminate beading. 

John


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan, 

As Gary and John correctly point out a wash is very dilute paint. Wet water is also a great tip and everything drys darker than you think when applying so go light and add more if necessary only after it's dry. 

Best, 
TJ


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