# Accucraft E6 first batch



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Well I have word that 6 locos will be shipped over here next week. I am unsure yet as the to color but they are unlined and I think only gas fired. Not sure if I will review one before they ship to the customers but there was a lot of corrections made to the production for cosmetic and performance. After many years waiting as we go onto 3 years total they are finally coming in.


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## rexcadral (Jan 20, 2016)

Accucraft has updated the photo on that page to a painted model. Looks good!
What's the price on one of these bad boys?


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking at the photo, it looks like the lubricator line runs through the driver spokes?? Engine looks good!


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

theyre assembled in china jeff, that explain a pipe running through the driver 

just be happy they remembered to put the driving wheels on in the first place. LOL




very pretty engines indeed.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

JEFF RUNGE said:


> Looking at the photo, it looks like the lubricator line runs through the driver spokes?? Engine looks good!


Jeff, Its a horrible photo. Wish they had better ones. Color hue is so off.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Yes that lubricator pipe is not very discrete it would be better if it was routed behind the drivers to the cylinders, I hope there is enough pipe to do that. Also that huge banjo connection to that lubricator pipe is a bit ugly under that long air tank. A bit of blackening should help here. 

My main worry remains the cylinders themselves the position (or axis) of the slide valves or fake piston valves, should be further outward. the outer wrapper should just curve around the piston valve cover and not be right angled, and the wrapper should bulge a bit more, this last dretail should be easy to correct though, the valves would not if it isn't in the correct axis...
It seems to me also that the running board should be a bit thicker than what is visible in the photo, as per Pennsy practice. I sincerly hope these things will have been attended to in the production model, well worth a little wait to acheive this goal. It is a difficult loco because it is so simple and all the guts are out where you can see them and therefore the mistakes are too obvious. All this positive criticism, in the interest of making it a best seller.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

what drives me INSANE is that you pay about as much as you would for a used car, and they cant even do the little things like this to make it a better product. for the money they ask, i would be mad to find even the smallest thing wrong.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

It would be nice if we could have some pictures of this first batch Jason to check if these points have been taken care of. The one on the Accucraft site may not be of this batch. Also some info on why this lubricator pipe is placed in such an unsightly position instead of going behind the rear driver. If its an easy fix OK, but otherwise, it is a bit over the top as Nathan observed, especially since some of these issues were signaled quite some time ago. A photo from the front would be apreciated in view of the cylinder issue. I checked on Scotts video and it seems that the issue has been corrected though, there is a pretty good clear view from up front just before it derailed.


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## rexcadral (Jan 20, 2016)

Looking at the Accucraft photo, I'm pretty sure that's not the lubricator, since that pipe would come off the regulator, and go through the boiler via the flue tube. The brass pipe in question is most likely the axle pump output pipe, heading to the bypass valve, which is the fitting we see under the cab.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to minimize the aforementioned disappointment of the exposed pipe. But why not do what I have done in the past with shinny things that I didn't want to stand out, like some copper pipe and the reverse bar on both the K4 and the G5, I mixed some matching paint and the outstanding parts blended right in with the rest of the locomotive. Just a suggestion, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. nick jr


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## RP3 (Jan 5, 2008)

Rexcadral, that bright brass pipe and banjo fitting on the fireman's side of the E6 is very much a steam lubricator. This type system is the current standard that Accucraft has applied to their last two Gauge 1 models. My N&W J 611 has the same exact system and like the E6, it is not painted. Bummer.

This steam oil lubrication system (I think it is called a Roscoe system) is superior to the cab system used by Accucraft on many of its previous models. The earlier system which routes steam from the regulator through the lubricator and then through the superheater to cylinders has the serious defect that running steam oil through the superheater exposes that oil to excessive temperatures that can break down the oil before it ever gets to do its job of lubing the cylinders. Hopefully Accucraft will implement this newer system on all its future locomotives, but given the simplicity of the cab system, I doubt that such a wholesale change will be made.

Ross Schlabach


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> theyre assembled in china jeff, that explain a pipe running through the driver
> 
> just be happy they remembered to put the driving wheels on in the first place. LOL
> 
> very pretty engines indeed.


Not funny. Poor taste at the least. 
Nate, You're better than this.

Not to mention it's Christmas....Peace on earth, good will toward men?


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

Chris, nothing agains china, just their poor quality control.
for example, the smashed the gas tanks through the floors on the IoM Mannins, on the W&L #14's they butchered the color for the red ones, and on the E-6, the didnt even bother painting that pipe, let alone moving it.
if they had good quality control, they could make superior quality products. they have the ability to.

nothing against China/Chinese people, but i have alout against their Quality control.


sorry for the misunderstanding

Merry Christmas to you chris, AND all the people in China!!!


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

RP3 said:


> Rexcadral, that bright brass pipe and banjo fitting on the fireman's side of the E6 is very much a steam lubricator. This type system is the current standard that Accucraft has applied to their last two Gauge 1 models. My N&W J 611 has the same exact system and like the E6, it is not painted. Bummer.
> 
> This steam oil lubrication system (I think it is called a Roscoe system) is superior to the cab system used by Accucraft on many of its previous models. The earlier system which routes steam from the regulator through the lubricator and then through the superheater to cylinders has the serious defect that running steam oil through the superheater exposes that oil to excessive temperatures that can break down the oil before it ever gets to do its job of lubing the cylinders. Hopefully Accucraft will implement this newer system on all its future locomotives, but given the simplicity of the cab system, I doubt that such a wholesale change will be made.
> 
> Ross Schlabach


I believe only a few Accucrafft live steam locomotive have the E-6 style lubricator, seems to me C-16 was one. 

Nevertheless, they're both deg leg lubricators, it's a little technical but they are. The reports of the superheater problems seem few compared to the number of Accucraft locomotives in the world. Although those comparatively few reporting problems here are hard fixed on their opinions of disaster.  Still years have gone by and no widespread reports of catastrophes comparatively. Still there are some who have posted photos of their superheater horribly tortured death.

Thinking about the potential for damage to steam oil going through the SH, molecules of emulsified stem oil racing through the SH rather quickly, in a vacuum and steam oil breakdown temperatures are in the 400-500 degrees Centigrade (a manufacturers spec which inherently has substantial tolerances). Should anyone refer you to the Southern Steam Trains article for Steam Oil data, ignore it. The article is years and years out of date and the temperatures are mislabel as F when they were in fact C. If you'd like an accurate comparison of steam oil manufacturer's specs complied from their actual spec sheets let me know and I'll send you a copy.

The definite situation is Accucraft' lubricators put out far more steam oil than necessary and restricting the output are very helpful cuting the uesage by 1/2 to 1/3rd. Kevin O'Connor posted a thread on http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/16540-how-reduce-excess-steam-oil-flow.html Unfortunately the photos are no lomger in the thread but think the explanation will paint a fairly vivid mental picture. And reducing the amount of steam oil will lessen the emulsified steam oil traveling through the superheater and reduce the potential world wide catastrophe.    

So, my opinionated opinions ought to be enough to fire up the contrarians.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

rexcadral said:


> Accucraft has updated the photo on that page to a painted model. Looks good!
> What's the price on one of these bad boys?


 
Price is 3000 for the unlined and 3200 for the lined.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

As to the lubricator, It is supposed to be painted on the production. I actually tried for a non banjo mount and to solder a pipe in from the back on the top but its not how we have it. 

As to clogging up the superheater, in all my year I have not seen one yet. Even Roundhouse locos with 200 hours and those have not clogged either. I guess if you use bar oil or one not designed for the lower pressures we run then you have an issue. More of an issue that it plugs it because its so thick Id think. I stick solely to Green Velvet and in 8 years no issues at all. Also most of the larger ride on guys will only use his oil. 

My only issue with the smaller dead leg lubricators is the smaller fill drain plug. M6 or M8 I think this one is.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Be interesting if they make it in time for DH. Later RJD


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Jason, could you put some photos here or on your site when they do arrive please. I unfortunatly cannot attend Diamondhead and am quite impatient to see the beastie...
Thanks and Happy new year, Simon


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Diamonhead is now past and there is no sight of the production run PRR E6, what a suspens! It is killing...


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

anyone else notice accucraft updated the photos again?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep disappointing they did not make it to DH was looking forward to breaking in a new loco. Later RJD


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate, RJ, did notice the updated pics, very nice. Have you also seen the new updated prices, not so nice, JMHO.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I hope that it is only the Accucraft price, I ordered from Jason and hope his price stays. We are not responsible for the delay in production, because Accucraft found it more opportune to turn out a big boy, an SP mogul and a N&W J class between the time the E6 was announced and we made a deposit) and its late release. All these engines which had not been announced before the E6 (save perhaps the big boy) as well as engines for the British market and the German ones, not to forget the numerous narrow gauge releases. So if it is not economical for Accucraft to produce this engine announced around four years ago at its advertised price, I will be very upset and might ask for a refund. You can't keep the cake and eat it too! If you manufacturers want us to reserve an engine with a down payment , then you have to respect your end of the contract and make a quick release and hold a firm price. 
Let us not forget that this is not the first time Accucraft does this quick one on us we have the precedent of the LW coaches price hike.

This is especially bad because the Pennsy strived to make basic engines as efficient as possible so as to do away with all the gadgets like: feedwater heaters, power reverse, stoker, booster etc so as not to spend all the money they saved through these economisers in maintaing them (this is what renown Pennsy locomotive historian said about Altoona policy, i didn't invent it) So that there is no explanation for the very long development of this model which is as simple as it can be (unlike the long development of say Aster's 2-4-1 P which is a very complex loco and alsotherefore took time) 
I hope this rumor doesn't come true because it is really taking us live steamers for a ride.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Simon, it is not a rumor, please check the Accucraft web site, the new prices are plain. I don't think any distributor can absorb $500 on a $3700 dollar item, and if so there must be one **** of a mark up. You mentioned about them raising the price of coaches. I also remember when the AML K4 was introduced at the first asking price, and it came out much later with several enhancements we all held our breath to see a price increase, and there was none. An excellent locomotive at a very reasonable price, but those days are gone. I don't blame you for asking for your deposit back, and I'm willing to bet in all fairness they will. I do believe on their web site has or had a disclaimer that the pics and prices are subject to change. thank you.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Nick, I do agree that there is a mention that prices are subject to change on their website. But that does not explain why it took them all these years to develop a model that is relatively simple, for one. And: What I find particularly unpleasant is this custom which manufacturers have introduced through limited series; in which if you want a model, you better reserve it firmly. Then they take years to develop it (while producing other more opportune models, no doubt) and bring it out at an increased price, for two. 
We the customer who have encourage the production of this model with our deposit are taken for a ride, because they estimate that nowadays, it is not economic for them to produce it at the advertised price any more. I find that very unfair to those who have commited themselves and have helped develop the model with a deposit. I think that the add should say the new price for those who didn't make a firm reservation with a deposit and the original price for those who did make the deposit. After all without our helping finance the project the thing might never have reached the market. Lets not forget that about 6 years ago you could have an Accucraft Daylight for that price, so if they took too long to come out with it it's their problem not ours. The thing is not so much a legal matter, its a moral one, this is just bad business practice in particular with regards to the dollar having devalued so much, it was predictable, but that does not excuse their taking so much time to produce a simple engine. Which is all their doing.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Simon, you have many valid arguments that i do agree with, and i have no answers as to why it took so long for it to come to be, but I doubt that will lower the price of the long awaited E6. And I also doubt that your deposit helped the development of the product, it was just a bit more than a verbal commitment that they had been stung with so many in the past. I have no connections with Accucraft. LG.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

O look Nick is at it again. No surprise there!

The presale price was up until the production was started. All the people that ordered when it was asked for a deposit have a price set. The people that did not well not anyones fault. As to the delay, there were lots of things that caused it, mostly major design changes and enhancements to use a ceramic burner from what they typically design. Being I am in NJ and the factory in China, its a few times back and forth with the model to get things right and working to Davids and my satisfaction.

Simon, do not worry for pricing its still held on the orders. As to a simple project, FAR FROM IT. Just because its small doesn't make it simple. 

As to all this speculation of not honoring the presale price, anyone concerned should ask the source not guess as to what could happen. Its very simple and straight forward.

I was unaware that Scott did not get any video of the 4 runs of the E6 at Diamondhead. Ill ask him if he did get anything. Ernie Noa had ran it and it pulled anything he hooked up.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I am not at anything, and if you READ it I was defending Accucraft. I also was just quoting YOUR price quote vs the price on the website, and it seems Simon was not notified of a change in the Production price.. If you can keep the 3K price for the pre orders, congratulations on your mark up. Quote me where I disparaged you or Accucraft in my last posting. Thank You


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Jason great news, this wasn't against you or your firm by the way, What I meant isn't because its simple was because it is not say compound with, inside cylinders, or valve gears, crank axles etc and it has very few of the lost wax casting gadgets such as feedwater heaters, etc. That was Pennsy policy as Fred Westing explains in his book. 
I am sorry I reacted to a rumor and not the facts and therefore I appologise. It is important that moral issue; because it has become necessary to prereserve engines. Most of us were used to waiting for the engine to come out and deciding then. But I have pre ordered before and will continue as long as the moral contract stands. Thanks for clearing that up and lets get some photos or videos of the beastie.


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

I understand folks' frustration with delays in production and thank them for their patience. To try to obviate some of the perceived lag in the system we, Accucraft UK, took the decision over a year ago to only announce a model when we had a production sample available, reducing the 'lead' time to a year or eighteen months between announcement and delivery (hopefully!). We finance all development and production costs ourselves, not using customer deposits (which we don't take since we sell through dealers) - we rarely have trouble finding a home for cancelled orders anyway! We have never cancelled a project through lack of pre-orders and generally any spare stock is spoken for between the start of production and delivery - hence the need to pre-order with your preferred dealer, which gives us an idea of how large the batch should be.

Graham.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Graham: That is probably OK in UK which has a very broad gauge one following and community, but it's not the case everywhere. I understand fully the interest for the manufacturer to get pre orders in in order to evaluate the size of the batch to be produced. What I meant is that if a down payment is asked it should mean that the final price should be the one announced, when the deposit was made. Its a sort of Moral contract in my view, beneficial to both parties involved. I have already done this in three cases with three different importers and two manufacturers with no problem hitherto. And will continue as long as this moral contract is respected. I have never cancelled an order and don't wish to have to.


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

I quite understand. However, our policy (no deposits) has proved helpful when (due to, ahem, events beyond our control) the value of sterling nosedives and we have been forced to pass on the difference to our dealers (albeit swallowing quite a percentage ourselves to soften the blow). You, naturally, have a different playing field in the US.

Graham.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

i'd pay 800 for an E6- tops. prices these days are insane!!!


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> i'd pay 800 for an E6- tops. prices these days are insane!!!


The prices are pretty reasonable when you consider the amount of work that goes into research and engineering, and then take material costs and rising wages in China into account too. You might expect to pay $800 or more for a decent HO brass model these days, even the newer plastic and diecast HO models are typically in the $200-$500 range when you factor in DCC and sound and all the other bells and whistles (literally and figuratively) that they're packing into those things. So scale it up by a factor of almost three and add the additional engineering work for live steam, and the E6 is actually a pretty reasonably priced model for what you're getting. 

I feel your pain though, I always used to say I was a poor man in a rich man's hobby when I bought my first live steam locomotive back in 2004 (wow, has it really been 13 years already???), but I was lucky enough to be in the right place in the right time to get some amazing deals and slowly build my collection. I managed to scrape together enough to buy a K-27 the following year by selling enough of my other toys, including my N scale layout and collection, most of my HO brass collection, and my C-16 which had been my first live steamer. I'm making pretty decent bank these days, but I still can't justify the cost of every new model that tickles my fancy (the E6 does look mighty tempting though, now that we are seeing the finished product). The nice thing about live steam though is that you don't need a huge roster of locomotives to get a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby, so you can be selective about which models you truly want and are willing (or able) to pay for, while continuing to enjoy the ones you already have.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I agree 100% with what Richard says, Nate, and when I started out in gauge one my first live steam back in 1975 cost me about a $120 for a part of a Bing for Basset and Lowke Great Norther Railway (of england) Atlantic. which I began to restore. Three month later the kids who had played with it and lost the tender, the pilot truck and some detail parts (domes, safety valves) found them cleaning their attic and brought them to me and I restored the engine. I later traded it, once restored with a collector for my first Aster the PLM pacific which at that time cost about $1000. for years it was my only gauge one engine then I got the ETAT O6O oscilator. Scratch built some French electrics and coaches (for 15 years I had about 7 coaches and freight cars in gauge one), and my pike. 
And when I moved out in the country where my pike was, I sold all my HO, very well and started in earnest to build up my roster of 9 live steam and about 10 electric driven models and a whole range of cars and coaches. Many of those engines, I got at bargain prices and I sold some engines to buy others. Modeling in gauge one (or in any other scale) is a cumulative process. Youngsters are too impatient, because they can't see that cumulative process take place yet. One of the secrets is to avoid buying things that you will find incompatible: Like engines of different scales or from diferent continents, and making up a roster of your liking and which is consistent with the company style you like. That's the way I limit my self from buying a lot of things. For me it is the Nord railway of France (where I live) and the Penssylvania railroad, already quite an undertaking, but such a apparently megalomanic choice because of its huge scope gives me a great deal of satisfaction, I do what I can.

Today too many modelers out there don't really build things, way back in my younger days, some kits included a bundle of basswood strips, a drawing and instruction sheets and a couple of cast white metal parts. It was like scratchbuilding. Now I still enjoy it. But being a scratch builder I know how long it takes to make things (you only have one life) and how much the components to build it cost (metal ain't cheap these days; screws and castings neither) So I know what price an engine costs and beleive me the E6 is very correctly priced. And as I know I only have one life, buying a few things like that atlantic permits me to go that much further into my modeling hobby. I am also building a NORD mikado tank suburban locomotive from scratch but that takes years for an inexperienced machinist like me.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate, take heart, maybe like the Mason Bogey, many were made and not sold. Original selling price was $2500, I got mine for $2100, with a free goodall valve and pump bottle, and another fine Accucraft locomotive. I don't think the E6 will come down to the price you want, but then who expected it to go up from the price posted right here on 24 Dec 2016 of $3K to now $3.5K. LG


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

ill all honesty, it probably only cost Accucraft about $350 to build one. yet they ask 10x as much for it. seems kinda greedy IMHO


i'll just build my own


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

Nate,

Once you take a course in economics you will understand why things (and not just trains) cost what they do. You can sleep well at night knowing that nobody is getting rich in the train hobby. I was a manufacturer for almost 12 years in O scale and I finally had to go and get a "real" job because I was getting so "rich" making trains.

Mike

mocrownsteam
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

what i think would really help this hobby if if bachmann, or LGB would introduce a low price live steam engine. something similar to a mamod or Ruby.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Agreed, there is no, whats called "margin" in trains anymore. At one time the local shop that deals in the smaller scales could offer 20% discount every day. These days there isnt that much mark up or margin in the product. Once and a great while there will be and they pass along the savings. Take a good economics class in high school or college. Maybe with the right attitude you might get some help from one of the live steam companies when you have to write a research paper. Its very eye opening into the "real" costs of doing business. I have one of the old videos, VHS tape none the less, from Roundhouse. To see the amount of "hand assembly" that is done by the employes, and these are not teens or others at minimum wage, machining, painting, assembly, test, then retest under load each and every locomotive does one start to appreciate the asking price. Granted the horrible exchange rate was a good reason to complain, but not the base asking price. Even the rest of us got spoiled by the early cheaper prices from Accucraft and any other Chinese brand in any scale. But thier economy took off and the cost of trains from there also went up. Just look at what the Ruby cost when first introduced and what it might cost if they make another run this year. Everything costs more, from the raw materials, thier labor and other "overhead" costs like electricity, natural gas ect. This intern is passed on to the dealer in the form of higher costs, which once thier profit is factored in(which is very modest), you get the final or "street price" that you see in the magazine ads and online stores like Jason's or Silver State Trains ect. Folks sell trains as a passion, not to get rich. Many are retirees or work a day job like Jason does. If you do not believe this, just look at all the hobby shops that have failed to survive, and I am not talking about little ma and pa ones. Watts Train Shop, St Aubin's trains(2 locations) and Ridge Road Station among others. Many more vanished as the owners retired or passed on. My first live steam came from Rio Pecos in Florida. Most of the live steam builders are cottage industries or retirees keeping busy for a few more years because they love the hobby and want to see it grow and survive. The high cost of live steam, be it real or perceived on a personal level, is all the more reason to excel in your school work, nurture you ablites which appear to be both in engineering and drawing/art. So that once you enter the work force, you can have the income to buy yourself the trains you desire today. They will still be there, even ones that just got put on a shelf and never steamed. Now is the time to make sure you have the best chance to have the lifestyle to own them in the future. And I think you realize this, more than you let on. Now lets all go raise some steam and remember those we have lost this year, its been a rough week. Mike


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Something worth keeping in mind with many of these steam models, I think, is that they frequently maintain their value over time. So their cost isn't truly an expense in the same way your cable bill is.

Buying a model for $3,000 (or any amount), which can then be resold for $3,000 when you want a new one, means the actual "cost" is the lost investment income on $3,000; as a low-risk way to store money, it would seem to provide quite an attractive value in the hours of enjoyment available.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Mike says what I think is right Nate, if you go through the process of scratch building a live steamer, it involves over 1500 hours work time or labor + some very big material costs: Metal, hardware, tooling and paint, transfers or decals, castings and especially mashining and sheet metal work costs, as well as laser cutting and draphting the project in the first place, as well as research work to get it to look right. + rent, heating bills, taxes etc. And the same goes for the people who run the stores or who run the firms that produce these things, I know for sure that Jason doesn't make a living out of it, for instance.

Now on your side and point of view, I remember when I was a teen ager and serious about model railroading the heartbreaking frustration of not being able to afford such and such a model that I strived for. 
Well that frustration made me, at the time and in HO scale, concentrate on making structures and scenery, both affordable for a teen ager. (Balsa or stripwood, card stock and plaster are cheap). Well a few years later, as I knew how to draw pretty well was interested in architecture and theater I became a scene designer. Knowing how to make models, a thing I had learned during thoe frustrating years, gave me an edge on the competition, I was able to earn my living and progressively overcome my status as poor young artist and eventually buy the locos I wouldn't even have dreamed of when I was teen ager. So don't despair it will happen if you want it that much...


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

My first live steamer, an Archangel, cost the equivalent of $400 in 1977 - do you really think that a loco like the E6 should only be worth $800 today? Really? Apart from labour costs (wherever you are), one of the biggest costs is tooling / mould making - until someone finds a way of translating CAD into hardened steel cheaply this is always going to be one of the biggest items in the cost of production. Believe me when I say we have looked all round the world for a way of lowering this cost and it is no wonder that UK firms outsource pattern making to countries like China - and it is still incredibly expensive! Don't even get me started on the cost of plastics tooling which start at a five figure sum and spiral up from there.

Graham.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

BigRedOne said:


> Something worth keeping in mind with many of these steam models, I think, is that they frequently maintain their value over time. So their cost isn't truly an expense in the same way your cable bill is.
> 
> Buying a model for $3,000 (or any amount), which can then be resold for $3,000 when you want a new one, means the actual "cost" is the lost investment income on $3,000; as a low-risk way to store money, it would seem to provide quite an attractive value in the hours of enjoyment available.


I agree, and it should be considered when you buy a loco. The ones I have sold were at close to the price I paid for them.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> what i think would really help this hobby if if bachmann, or LGB would introduce a low price live steam engine. something similar to a mamod or Ruby.


Argh -please, not a Bachmann live steamer!

Actually, Nate, you are missing that there is a lot of specialized labor to produce things like wheels for a run of 50 locomotives. LGB and Bachmann are cheap because they amortize the tool costs over a run of 1,000 models. (Look at the Mogul that Bachmann just re-introduced. Same plastic with a few mods.)

And Bachmann did/does produce brass models with steel wheels - they just don't sell any here. Guess what, they are expensive. This gauge-1 0-6-0 (electric) is £810 ($1,000-ish.)











The Mamod and the Ruby are not great live steamers - because they are built down to a price, not up to a standard. IMHO you need a steamer that costs about $1,000 to really enjoy the hobby.

You are young and have plenty of time to save your pennies. Just enjoy the benefits of owning a working live steam engine and stop pining for more.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

_That's interesting - it won't let me edit the above post. Just gives me a blank Message window and it adds a 'Report this Image' link. I'll try it and see what happens. Nothing._
Anyway, what I wanted to add is that the loco pictured comes from Bachmann Brassworks. And that the Bachmann US Mogul retails for over $1,000, although the street price is around $600.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

bachmann live steam egine??? boiler would be made of plastic!


(or an old soda can)


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> bachmann live steam egine??? boiler would be made of plastic!


Well, Aristo did a couple of live steamers about a decade ago, taking a couple of their existing 1:29 models (Mikado and 0-4-0) and re-engineering them for live steam. The boilers are copper, but the superficial outer shell and all of the details are plastic, same as the electric version (although I think they used a different, more heat-resistent plastic on the steam versions). By the way, even those (the Mikados anyway) were more than $800!


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

Graham, i if may quote you "swallowing quite a percentage ourselves", obviously customer relations are very important to you. Having been in business for 31 years, involving installing wiring and telecom equipment in new and existing buildings. The estimate I gave the customer was binding, although many feel that a 5% overage is well within acceptable. If the cost went beyond that for what ever reason, that meant that i didn't do my job correctly, or properly inspect the building. Accucraft is not new to this game and they know what it takes to build these things, and also know to anticipate the increase in materials and labor. I don't believe either went up to that degree since it was first purposed or since the last price posted on 24 Dec. 
Is it possible that the 16% increase of the E6 is due to the recent merger? And will this price increase carry on to future production? Thank You


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I think that the increase is more due to the fact that the dollar devaluated that much in such a short time. I could bet the Chinese price is the same. You have to understand Nate that to fight the massive import of Chinese good the Obama administration printed so much money so that Chinese goods prices would go up. it is a deliberate intention to protect (rightly so) US jobs. I won't comment that but that is how it is, the same is haperning here in Europe.


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

du-bousquetaire said:


> to fight the massive import of Chinese good the Obama administration printed so much money so that Chinese goods prices would go up. it is a deliberate intention to protect (rightly so) US jobs.


With all due respect, sir ---- NO. Foreign exchange is nowhere near that simple, nor do politicians of any stripe have that kind of influence, as much as many of us think they do.

Prices for Chinese goods are going up because of pressures on manufacturers within China. Bloomberg published an interesting piece on this back in October: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...o-the-world-mulls-the-unthinkable-price-hikes

Let's all keep a few things in mind -- much of this already posted, I'm just adding emphasis:
-- It takes a substantial up-front outlay (in the tens of thousands of pounds/dollars) to design and produce a model, well before the first one is sold. There's enormous risk involved: mis-judging a very small and fickle market, getting blindsided by sudden currency fluctuations and other unknowns
-- Small-scale live steam is a highly specialized market; garden railways are a niche within the larger model railway market, live steam is a niche within that niche. Smaller product runs nearly always translate to higher unit prices, because the up-front costs have to be recouped over fewer units sold. 
-- Did I mention that prices in China are going up?  Nobody over there is working for pennies an hour any longer.

Nate, you've already accomplished more than most (if not all) of us have at a very young age. Be patient, save your pennies.

My unbidden two cents' worth.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Same thing happened to the brass HO scale market, first mostly made in Japan, but rising labor costs combined with a devalued doller vs the Japanese yen made models unaffordable within just a few short years. Production was moved to South Korea, for the most part, and prices flattened out or dropped slightly, but so did the quality for a few years as the Koreans learned a new trade and how to make a quality model. Then labor costs rose there, just as they had in Japan and models got expenisve, but at thru those year, modelers demanded models be painted, detailed for a specific road name with even more detail. Add into the equation the plastic/diecast market also came of age with detailing rivialing the brass models at a lower cost. So what once was runs in the 500-1000 pieces, became runs of 5-25 of each road name. What once was a 200-300 doller brass diesel for example, is now near $1000 each and so fragile with all the detail, they are more of a display piece IMHO. I think Roundhouse has done it the best, maintainted consistant quality, even improving on many models over many production runs, yet kept the cost reasonable on the common models such as Lady Anne and Billy ect. Accucraft comes in second, they are fighting fast rising labor costs and inflation in China, be it natural or goverment assisted. We get used to getting things on the cheap, like the Ruby for around $300 when first released. I be they would be $600-$700 if and when they are ever produced again. Had Merlin had proper management from around the time the Mayflowers hit the market going foward, they might be still with us today like Roundhouse is. When Ian opened Pearse Loco works, if you look at the first models, they basicly took over where Merlin left off. The Accucraft UK models are much the same, like Edrig, Caradoc, just imagine the Merlin fixed outside valve motion on them and you see the family resemblance. I kind of wish they would revert back to outside valve gear, but I digress. Mike


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

Nick Jr said:


> Is it possible that the 16% increase of the E6 is due to the recent merger? And will this price increase carry on to future production? Thank You


I'm sorry, I was only speaking for UK production, I can't answer for the US range.

Graham.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I doubt the merger had anything at all to do with the cost increase. More due to the lapse of time from announcement to production and the constant change in costs of material and labor, sometimes it cannot be absorbed into the price of the model. Good looking engine though, cant wait to see videos of it running on others layouts. Mike


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

The price is simple. It was a presale price to confirm orders. Once the production was starting to come in the price was set to the full retail. For the features, detail and performance the price is pretty reasonable.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

I beg to differ, many feel that the Pre Sale and Production price differing by %16 is unconscionable even considering the time laps from pre to post production. Material and Labor costs increased by that much? I'm sure those factory workers would like to see that. I refer to what Simon posted. And in his post this is not the first time Accucraft has done this. And if you want to talk about features, Simon brought up and you admitted to the obtrusive oil pipe. 
"quote" We are not responsible for the delay in production, because Accucraft found it more opportune to turn out a big boy, an SP mogul and a N&W J class between the time the E6 was announced and we made a deposit) and its late release. All these engines which had not been announced before the E6 (save perhaps the big boy) as well as engines for the British market and the German ones, not to forget the numerous narrow gauge releases. So if it is not economical for Accucraft to produce this engine announced around four years ago at its advertised price, I will be very upset and might ask for a refund. You can't keep the cake and eat it too! If you manufacturers want us to reserve an engine with a down payment , then you have to respect your end of the contract and make a quick release and hold a firm price. 
Let us not forget that this is not the first time Accucraft does this quick one on us we have the precedent of the LW coaches price hike.
I know he apologized for some of his statements, but that doesn't make them less accurate.
Graham, my thought is if the price increase was due to the new merger I would think it would effect the over all production,but you would have a better handle on that than I. thank you.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Nick you can beg to differ all you want as no matter what I or other will say you will make your own complaints accordingly. Its shown in numerous threads how you rant on and on over and over again. Its funny that you have never come to any steam events but yet you always seem to be the point of people conversations. Its beyond be and many others how to continue to beat a dead horse trying to contradict me in any way you can. We get it, you don't like me and I couldn't give a rats ass that you don't. Problem is you cant get over yourself continuing to do it. As many just ignore your comments myself included, its just is old hat that you keep bothering to try to piss people off. We don't need this crap on the forums or at events, If you don't like something than don't buy it. But to constantly complain and try to twist my words all the time, we all know what you do. Just ask people that know you personally. They all say the same at this point. You have alienated yourself from the local people in the hobby even after I've brought you personally to local steamups, but grasp at threads to hold on to these "forum friends" with your rants.

You think that putting the BB , Mogul and J before the E6 was due to opportunity? How about they were first in line to the production as they were drawn before the E6 was even drawn up. Never mind that the Heisler was designed when Charlie was alive! 

As to the coaches, bad example there bud as the original quote for the cars were for the basic smooth painted coach. Then people demanded that interiors be added, underbody detail to be added along with more cosmetic details added on the body that were not planned. As the changes added up so did the tooling for the plastic interior along with the plastic underbody.


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