# Just Wondering



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I was wondering if it might not be a good option for Accucraft to offer their engines in a "Custom tuned version"? When someone places their order they could take their chances on getting a good runner, or pay extra upfront and be assured that it would be. There are other products that are offered this way, why not Accucraft Loco's. If you are mechanically inclined and like to tinker you can take your chances with what is right of the assembly line, and if not up to par, get it running right yourself. If not, (Like me) it would be well worth the extra money charged to get a well tuned runner right out of the box. As it is now, if you have problems you spend a lot of time and shipping expense to and from Accucraft for warranty work, let alone the chances you take with the shippers messing up your prized Loco in route. I think many would be happy to pay more to get a good runner up front and avoid the hassles down the road. What do you think?


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice idea... but what is it worth to you? 

Also, not to cast aspersions, but there would be the fear that those that purchase the "untuned" version might be getting the ones that the "tuner" was unable to make work and it was passed on to the more frugal purchaser.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

When you are talking about Locos in the 3.5 to 5K price range already...........I would be happy to pay 3 to 4 hundred more to avoid the frustration and get a well tuned runner. As far as Locos that could not be tuned by a competent Locosmith, I would hope that Accucraft would realize that it should go to the parts bin and never be released to a consumer. I mean if a true craftsman could not get it running it's a junker anyway.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve 
I do not believe it is a matter of "tuning" but basic fundamentals of steam delivery and mechanics that need to be correct from the production line. For example, having an engine without working combination levers (SG) is like having a car without overdrive (when that is a product standard)relative to efficiency. There is no way to "tune" that problem. Simply ask yourself if it was an Aster model would you be posing this query. There lies the answer. 
Secondly, I do not believe that Accucraft will invest the time, man power hours or production schedule for "custom tuning," vs. mass assembly line productons. 
Lastly, if it is valve setting, eccentrics, etc the QC should ensure that all engines run properly off the production line, I/we as customers should not pay for something that is as basic as a properly running engine out of the box. 
If any thing, maybe be "hop-ups" such as better line connectors (e.g.quick disconnects) or even a limited deluxe model (I would have paid more for a properly designed GS4 by Accucraft probably cheaper rate based on volume vs. one of a kind custom work). 
My hobby locomotives are not like my other hobby of rally cars which custom tunes are based on different mechanical parts (bigger turbo, injectors, fuel pump etc) resulting in better high end performance. I doubt we will add more cylinders to a model. 
Performance for our G1 motive power is related to: 
Power and Tractive effort 
TE = N (e P � (d/2)2 s) / D 
P x L x A x N 
# TE is the tractive effort at the driving wheels 
# e is a constant representing the efficiency of the cylinders - 0.75 is probably a good figure to use in G1 with a superheater. 
# P is the boiler pressure 
#L is length of stroke 
# d is the piston diameter 
# s is the piston stroke 
# D is the driving wheel diameter 
# N is a factor based on the number of double acting cylinders ( for 2 cylinders, N=1; 3 cylinders, N=1.5; 4 cylinders, N=2) 
Power = Force x Speed component along the line of the force. 
Force- drawbar test x speed (determined by lap time chart on Southern Steam Train web site) 
So, what of the these components would be tuned to allow better power and/or tractive effort. 
BTW- excellent thread on G1MRA power calculations. 
Probably just add weight over the drivers and grooving the tires are the best "hop-ups!"


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I/we as customers should not pay for something that is as basic as a properly running engine out of the box.

Charles, I agree with this statement, however customers are paying for Accucraft Locos that are not running well out of the box, and then going to a lot of time, money, and trouble anyway. I agree, it would be asking too much for the Chineese to tune some at the assembly line. Maybe Accucraft U.S.A. could have a certain percentage of each run of a new model sent direct to a few trusted Accucraft licensed locosmiths that could get them running right for a extra charge. It could be a bussiness deal between Accucraft and their chosen locosmiths. Make it worth these American craftsmans time and effort (cash that is). I think that you would be amazed at how many would pay up to an extra 4 to 5 hundred bucks to get a well tuned running engine when you consider that they are already paying 4 to 6 K for one thats a crap shoot on quality in the first place.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

Just Wondering --  

Why not make them all "right" in the first place. Make them all the same during production and make them all "right." From a quality control/quality assuance and business perspective this seems like the way to go./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif 

My engines are all either Aster or Roundhouse and they all ran "right" in the first place. Now having said that, Ya'll can tell I really only know about Accucraft by observing those owned by others and what I read in the magazines and see on line. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif 

At this point if I am going to spend 5,000.00 on an engine it probably will not be an Accucraft. But to each his own. Obviously Accucraft has a big following. So far the information in the thread "Rebuilt C21 by Dave Hottman" has done nothing tp put an Accrucaft on my want list. And -- the main reason they are not on my list is the (current) apparent need for after market tuning alluded to by Steve./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

I am considering the purchase of a K-36; however, I am more and more leary of how one may perform out of the box./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

the chances you take with the shippers messing up your prized Loco in route.

No amount of tuning is going to solve that problem. 

But it would be nice to have a "take it out of the box and steam it before shipping; fix any problems" option. Perhaps the problem is that they are packed in China, so taking it out of the box (and repacking it) is a major expense.


----------



## Ron67 (Jan 14, 2008)

I agree with Dave. My first "live steamer" will be the Aster S2 for that very reason. When I first got interested in the hobby a couple of years ago I considered Accucraft, until I read all of the issues and modifications and testing that appeared to be needed to fine tune these for optimal performance. No thanks! 
If I am going to fork over several thousand dollars, I demand something that is engineered and built right the first time. Not to say that every Aster is perfect, but based on the threads I've read my chances of having a properly engineered and optimal running loco out of the box are much better with Aster. Well worth the extra investment, in my opinion.


----------



## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

The system now seems to be, pardon the pun, the squeaky wheel gets a trip to Dave Hoffmann 

jim 

The issue seems to get back to price. Sometimes Accuraft is good out of the box, but some do need tuning. My Accuraft GS4 needed tuning 
and I was frustrated about the lack of draft for a year. but after my own tuning, this thread line and a trip to a pro, it is a terrific runner and still much cheaper than the Aster GS4. and not to get started again, Asters can be finicky. 



I consider all this is part of the hobby. better than electric


----------



## John R (May 17, 2008)

I really cannot believe what I`m reading, You 
would offer to pay "Extra Hard Earned Money" to 
receive an Item in "Perfect or Near Perfect" 
condition over and above the R.R.P.. 
It is your right to receive the very best these 
people can produce, and if for any reason it is 
not so, then send it back!. 
I don`t care who builds it or for that matter 
what it is, It should not require a "Bribe" to 
receive what you`ve already paid for, "The Best", 
"The Prettiest", "The Fastest", "The Smoothest", 
You are entitled to that!. 
It also do`se not matter a "Hoot" what Country 
built it, be it America, China, Australia, Britain 
or "Timbucktoo", We expect the very best they can 
produce, or they should take up "Knitting" as a 
Hobby. {and dont drop a stich!.} ;-}/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 
Regards, 
John R.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

JohnR: 

Think of it this way. 

I will sell you a live steam model of a U.P. BigBoy for, oh, say $1,234.56. 

Think you'd like to have one? 

This is gonna have to be in kit form. You will receive a bag of copper nuggets and some talconite and a few sections of an old I-beam for the steel. All you gotta do it melt it all down to form the parts, machine them, then assemble it and tune it up!  

If you would like the metals already in the final crystaline form and pressed into sheets, then I will be willing to take on that task FOR A PRICE... oh say, and additional $4,567.89. 

Now if you would like that raw metal to be machined then I am going to have to charge a fee for that process. I'd guess about $9,876.54 will take care of it. 

Do you want it painted? That'll be extra...I guess about $1234.56. 

You want it assembled!!!!? Oh, sorry, I charge another 2,345.67 for that. 

You expect me to fire it up and make it work right? That's another $987.65. 

Shipping is extra, as is shipping insurance. 

Ooooorrrrrrr ! You can pay $20,246.87 for the whole thing, materials, smelting, machining, painting, assembling and tuning. You can leave out any of those processes and do them yourself if you wish. Send me the raw materials and I do the rest, or I can supply them to you and you can smelt them down and send them back for me to do the rest. Your choice, any combination of you and me doing it. 

(Note: all prices subject to currency exchange rates and my whim. Availability subject to the phase of the moon and my insanity.) 



The "PERCEPTION" on this forum (and other Model train forums) is that the manufacturer is selling the stuff for the price that the market will bear can based on what it is paying for the services of the factory that is actually making the locos for them. This price "apparently" does NOT include the costs of "tuning" the engine. (Again, this is PERCEPTION and may have nothing at all to do with reality!) 

Some of the people here are saying, "Raise your price to cover the cost of 'tuning' the loco". Others are saying, "I want it cheaper, I'll do the 'tuning' myself". 

You ARE getting what you are paying for, and apparently you are not presently paying for the factory to do the final step. 

I agree with you, I want an engine that works right out of the box... well, I want the KIT to be complete and all that parts to be manufactured correctly, etc. as I prefer the Aster experience! But if that means paying more, then that must be what will happen. At present the paradigm is that it is cheaper for the manufacturer to accept the bad publicity of the end user having to return items for "repair/correction" in order to sell at the present market price.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...You ARE getting what you are paying for, and apparently you are not presently paying for the factory to do the final step...

Therein lies the problem, on so many levels. At the risk of turning this into a similar debate concerning another prominent 1:20 manufacturer, why are we as consumers accepting of things that don't run properly out of the box? For the amount of money we spend on these locos, proper machining, construction, and operation should be included in the price. There's no excuse for it not to be. When I buy any other expensive mechanical device (car, lawnmower, etc.) am I supposed to expect to have to balance the tires myself? 

Yes, this is a hobby of tinkerers, and perhaps part of the problem stems from the fact that each of us has different ideas of what is "ideal" operation. Maybe the locos do run well enough out of the box, and we're just too exacting. I don't know. Live steam locos are individual beasts by nature. But it just boggles my mind why we readily accept "inferior" products simply by justifying it to ourselves by saying "well, it's a bargain at that price, so it's okay." 

Later, 

K


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 05/17/2008 7:19 PM
...You ARE getting what you are paying for, and apparently you are not presently paying for the factory to do the final step...

... 
why are we as consumers accepting of things that don't run properly out of the box? 
... 
K




Simple! Because that is all we are willing to pay for.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I must admit to having a slightly different perspective, as we once bought a semi-custom boat (real - not a model!) The manufacturer made it, but didn't do a great job of "final test and inspection". The dock guys at their marina were expected to finish tuning air-conditioners, radios, drives, and various other items. We finally got them all sorted, but it took a while and delayed delivery. 
I often get the impression that Accucraft feels the same way - especially when they announce a cut-off of March 31 for a particular model (EBT #12) meaning they want to know how many models to make. They aren't doing mass merchandising, and the models are all slightly different; more semi-custom manufacturing. 

However, I'll bet Accucraft would look at this thread with concern and regret. I doubt that they want to provide a product that doesn't work out-of-the-box. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this confined to live steamers? Don't the electric locos work most of the time? And isn't it a random problem: some folks locos work perfectly and others are missing bits, are damaged in shipping, or just don't work right? 

The problem, IMHO, is that they can't teach the factory to do the final QC and test before shipping. It can't be a cost/price issue, as the cost of doing it there before packing the loco has to be fairly small. This suspicion is confirmed by the random packing issues: some locos are packed beautifully, and some folk complain that parts are scattered all over the box. 

I know they test the boiler, as they send a certificate. But I don't think they run a real live steam test. Maybe we should petition them to * always * steam the loco before packing and shipping. That produces other issues, such as damaging the perfect finish with the flame, and purging the gas tank completely afterwards, but they aren't insurmountable.


----------



## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

There are a handful of folks out there who work on live steam models for pay. I'm sure that if you contracted with one of them before buying a loco, you could have it shipped directly to the expert for test and tuning before sending it along to you. There always is a way if you really want it. 
My experience with Roundhouse locos has been that they always run just fine as delivered. But, then, they brag about test running each loco before shipping it. Certainly, the factory that Accucraft buys from could do the same. Somehow, I just don't think that it's going to happen. 
I'm accustomed to tinkering with my models and don't mind having to do some tuning up. Fortunately, if you can't or don't want to do it yourself, there are those who are willing to do it for a fee. 
Llyn


----------



## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

We all know that it takes some experience or coaching to run an aster when it is not quite right. Part of the hobby. That is one reason why this forum is so important. as well as Diamondhead etc. 

There is an issue when the engines are quite pricey. The Accucraft GS4 is a case in point. It was $4449 rather than $10000 for an Aster. 
People thought they were getting a good deal on a beautiful engine, but it was still alot of money. The quality was all over the place, and it is hard to second guess what went on. Some were good out of the box and some could not sustain themselves for 2 lapse on the track. 

The GS4 is just about sold out. I wounder how many were sold to new steamers with high hopes of money well spent, but these engines don't run very well and the steamers are not clear on what to do. Not good for the hobby 
jim 

jim


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, it takes "experience or coaching to run" a Ruby when it is "not quite right". 

And if you read all the forums here on MLS you will find that the same is true of the "sparkies", both track and battery powered, as well. 

Ever read the discussions on "TRACK POWER"... talk about "FINICKY!" Whoa! Ya gotta clean that track every other time the train goes areound. And how do you connect the wires... why can't the manufacturer's make a good way to do it? Wha'da'ya mean I gotta buy third party clips and clamps and put extra feed wires all over? Why do I have to keep cleaning the wheels and how come there is so much friction in the pickups that I have to adjust? 

How about the discussions of getting a battery to take and hold a charge and then get it to run the sound board AND get the chuff right. How come the purchaser has to rewire it to get the backup light to only come on when the loco is in reverse? 

What about all the complaints of how lousy the "Christmas" trains are! Don't last, wear out, noisy, use up batteries like a dog drinks from the toilet on a hot day! 

Oh dear, now I gotta get Radio Control??? That Alphabet soup won't work with the other Alphabet soup! Range is not long enough, won't work well with that brand of train, AM, FM, PCM, glitching, artifacts, interference, my garage door keep going up and down!


----------



## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Good points Charles, 

Even though we live off of the great stuff (and affordable limit for some) from Accucraft and their labor conditions, 
there is still some buyer beware going on. Some of the first time steamer GS4 owners are not too happy. 

jim


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

There are a handful of folks out there who work on live steam models for pay


This is true. Accucraft realizes this, and also knows that the folks that expect their engines to run right will go to the time, effort, and money to seek these people out. If they can not do it themselves. Then, after all of this effort, and, or money spent they come on MLS and sing the praises of Accucraft. Accucraft sure must make a good margin of profit on their Loco's, when you figure how much it must cost them for warranty repair. I guess things wont change until the cost of doing warranty work and exchange outweighs what it would cost to figure out a way to test locos in China before shipment.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

I do not think that "bench testing" is the level of QC that is necessary. The fact that the GS4 would have passed (and did so on our initial run on our track) was not the issue at hand. We have retrofitted 12 GS4 that will allow it them to run at an Aster performance level. Jim Overland knows the fundamentals that make the engine purr vs. the stock out of the box. It is not "bench testing" but a process of consultants such as Dick Abbott, Gordon Watson, Norm Saley, Kevin O'Connor, Dave Hottman, the list goes on that will improve the performance of the offerings. I believe that the CP Hudson is undergoing such a process. Such "team work" allows the product to get out from the control of the engineers and into the hands of highly experienced steam experts who stress proper fundamental designs, not what is cost saving (Accucraft already receives a discount in manufacturer through China work force) for the higher profits.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

(Flame-proof suit on)... I have no vested interest in defending Accucraft, but I have to say that I don't think some of you are being very fair. It seems to me that you want an Aster-level product for an Accucraft price. You wouldn't expect to buy a Mercedes or a Porsche for a the price of a Hyundai, nor would you expect Harley Davidson performance from a Vesta. Like Hyundai or Vespa, Accucraft makes an "everyman's" steam locmotive, and they sell them for a price people can afford. Those of you who prefer "top of the line" and are willing to spend the bucks, by all means buy an Aster. Those of us who either can't or are unwilling to spend that kind of money will continue to happily run our Accucraft locos, and there are thousands of Accucraft locos out there running right along that have had absolutely no issues and no mods. 

I currently have eight steam locomotives (not counting my Ruby and Ft. Wilderness), of which six are Accucraft. Of these eight, only two have been modified - I reversed the eccentrics on my Mich-Cal #2 - not because it didn't run well right out of the box, but because I wanted to try it, and yes, it did help it run smoother at very slow speeds in forward - but it also ran very well before - not as well, but very well. #21 was tuned and modified by Dave Hottmann before I ever bought it from him. 
Accucraft sells well-running highly detailed live steam locomotives for a very reasonable price. They have single-handedly revolutionized the live steam hobby by making it possible for many to afford it. Do they have their glitches and bad ones? Of course - so do car makers, appliance makers, and the company I work for. Could they improve their product? Of course... but for a price. I'm more than happy with them as they now are. Those who aren't should simply fork over the cash and buy something else from someone else. 

not what is cost saving (Accucraft already receives a discount in manufacturer through China work force) for the higher profits.
That's at least the second time you've made such a statement Charles. I seriously doubt that you are privy to the financial information, business model, and profit margin of Accucraft. That may be your opinion, but that's all it is... an opinion unsupported by any real facts. "Profit" isn't a dirty word, and the capitalistic system that makes possible the standard of living we all enjoy is supported by it. Were it not for "profits", you and I would be unemployed and this argument would be moot, because we'd all be too worried about where our next meal was coming from to worry about model trains.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Charles, I'm not sure, but I think that you are making my point?????? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif Guys like you and the others mentioned keep figuring out these Accucraft problems, but we do not see them put into production at the assembly end on new runs of Loco's. (as of yet that is) It is still very hit or miss on running ability, assembly and over all quality control. These are no longer $600.00 Locos but 3.5K and up Accucraft engines. Hit or miss should no longer apply.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight - The sad part is that all the locos you speak of generally run better out of the box than say a GS4, Cabfoward or a K series loco. I have about 9 locos from all different manufacturers, dam really..... and the 2cyl Shay, Mogul and Rubys all ran very well out of the box. My K28 had some minor timing issues but did run but lumpy. Nevermind having to clean all the fuel parts IE Tank and manifold for some dirt issues. Yet another issue that can be taken care of at the factory. Now timing that was not as easy as the Ruby but I was able to handle it. Spending 400 for a Ruby or 1200 for a mogul I can accept a small bit of work but spending 4500 on a loco I dont expect anytiing to have to be done. 

As for wanting more features in a loco like workign valve gear or axlepumps for longer run times. Others have been doing if for a long time not just Aster, things like that may bring up the price a few dollars but the issue is you CANT go somewhere else and get the loco if you want these features. Aster will not produce any narrowgauge stuff due to the amount of Accucraft stuff on the market anyway. 

O well I wont go on anymore abotu this....


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

but spending 4500 on a loco I dont expect anytiing to have to be done. 
And just how much would you think an Aster K-28/K-36 would cost if they did make it? Or an Aster Cab Forward? We already know how much the Aster GS-4 cost. My point is don't expect to get an Aster for 1/3rd the money. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not bashing Aster in any way - ****, I don't even own one, have never run one, and therefore have no opinion about them pro or con (other than they cost more than I want to plunk down - besides, I'm a Narrow Minded SOB and broadgauge doesn't appeal to me  ). 

It hasn't been all that long since one had to be willing to build their own locomotives if they wanted something not mass produced (and few things were mass produced). The same is true of the smaller scales. Scratchbuilding structures and rolling stock is becoming more and more rare these days as people want instant gratification. Buy it and plunk it down on the layout seems to be the current philosophy. Axel pumps and fully functional valve gear can be added if one really wants them. 
I would make an analogy in HO scale of yesterday between Bowser or Tyco and imported brass. The imported brass had all the separate piping, castings, and detail one might want, but it cost several times as mush as a Bowser or Tyco. Those that couldn't, or didn't wish to, pay the price for the brass could buy the Bowser or Tyco and either buy and add additional detail castings or live with less detailed locomotives on their layout. IMHO, the same principle applies here. Accucraft are well detailed and well running and will satisfy most of us. Those who demand the ultimate in performance and gizmos can either fork over the higher price and buy something else that will (hopefully) live up to their expectations, or pay the lesser price and add things like axle pumps, etc. and tune them to meet their satisfaction. 

Aster will not produce any narrowgauge stuff due to the amount of Accucraft stuff on the market anyway. 
From some of the commentary in this thread, it sounds to me like Aster is missing a real marketing opportunity.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve, et. al 


You have hit the nail on the head, a little skewed, but still in the board. As one of your claimed "locosmiths" I can say from the 12 combination lever retrofits along with other various modifications on GS-4's and a few other Accucraft's (C-16's and one K series) that there is a valid marketplace for your idea. My question to you is, why pay extra here, when you shouldn't pay extra for a proper working live steam engine elsewhere?


I commend the company on bringing us affordable models in our community, but I fear for their longevity as their QC and R&D has stood still while their customer base has expanded it's knowledge, with that expansion in knowledge comes higher expectations of the future models.


The preceding is *NOT* about Aster v. Accucraft or "X" manufacturer does this, so "Y" company should too, but rather posting of a customer feedback and my personal opinion. Simple things that should be/have been ironed out before, or even after the models went into production, no excuses considering the manpower and numerous suggestions/feedback that have been given for nearly every model.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight 
No fire suite necessary.... 
You are correct- IMHO; but there are two points of common knowledge that allows me to offer such a conclusion: 
Chinese workers â€" who usually make less than $100 a month â€" earn just 3% of Japanese and 2% of U.S. wages. Secondly, Accucraft's NG techniques on SG related to functional parts of steam delivery and usage is low end cost production (non-working combo levers vs. working). These two factors alone will result in higher profit. I have no objection to profit, only when it is a short term gain vs. long term growth and health of the hobby. 
We do differ in what is expected and what is fundamental to a proper running engine. Our points of reference are different with NG and SG background. I make my conclusions based on the proven standards of what can be and should be included (apples to apples) and conclude that Accucraft can afford to "get it right" with a greatly discounted price to their customer. 
Steve- Spot on! 
Jay- Locomotive running correctly; even the basic Ruby need functional correction. 
Finally, I personally appreciate Accucraft for their SG offerings in that have allowed me to better understand and establish reference points of excellence in the hobby. I truly admire and salute the high quality that is necessary to be the best in the hobby. For my perspective one should not design a SG engine on NG fundamentals. Finally, I am not sure what lesson Accucraft learned from the GS4, but maybe the other SG production models will prove out either lesson learned or opportunity missed.


----------



## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

I did not read through this whole topic so I may be repeating....actually this Accucraft-Aster-Quality topic never seems to end. It is very disappointing that Accucraft is still shipping locos that do not even run out of the box and have some deep mechanical issues. I've always tried to see the positive in Accucraft but I'll admit I'm worn pretty thin at this point. One of the problems is- what are the alternatives for someone who wants a *1:20.3* C-16, C-19, C-21, K-27, K-28, or K-36 in live steam?? Is there another choice? It seems that no matter what happens, a lot of us still line up and lay down cash for Accucraft engines. So long as the money keeps coming in, I don't think there will a big change (I really hope I'm wrong).


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Dwight, I have a car for you, It cost 1/3 the price of a Rolls Royce, but it lacks a few features. No a/c, and it has a top speed of 65mph, it comes with an inline 6 cyl designed in 1945, and a 2 speed automatic transmission. Now it may or may not run on all 6 cylinders, but you can take it to your local mechanic and let him "tune" it, or you can pay to have it towed back to the dealer and try your luck on another one. But its a great deal it seats 6 people and gets 19 mpg with the windows down. I cheap to fill up the 8.5 gallon tank, and you can put your new 7.5" gauge engine in the trunk, with room left over for several NG engines and rolling stock to go with.... This pretty car in made by a new car company.. Accucraft. I think they used to make model trains and their QC reputation proceeds them.. 
Hey you said you had your flame proof suit on so I had to try it out.... This post is for entertainment "poke a stick in their eye" FUN, 
only ! Accucraft IS the only game in town for NG, just think they could do a tad better for you Narrow Minded folks. 
BTW you new engine looks like a good project, guess the gauge one stuff's going to collect lots of dust now!!


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Used to be when you bought a new car, there was an add-on to the price that was designated as "Dealer Prep"? The car did NOT work well direct from the factory, it required a "tune up" first. For that matter, the last NEW car I got, was missing a couple of trim screws, a couple of bolts needed tightening and the bumper was crooked!


----------



## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

So are you saying the "Dealers" should be "tuning" the engines before delivery ??? Not sure their going to like their new responsibility..Are they going to have to be factory "trained""? ???


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Jeff - water off a duck's back.  As has everyone, I stated my personal opinion - no better nor worse than everyone else's. And I didn't say one should buy a car and expect it not to run. I did say that one can't pay for a Hyundai and reasonably expect a Porsche.  

Charles - if the cost of copper, brass, stainless, etc. in this country is any indication, I expect more and more of Accucraft's funds are being eaten up in materials. Much of the grunt work is I'm sure automated (stamping, machining, etc.) so the main cost difference would be in jobs requiring primarily human labor such as assembly and testing. I'm sure you are quite correct that the cost is cheaper in China. Then there are shipping costs and customs fees, delivery costs on this side of the pond. Then there are advertising fees. I see more ads for Accucraft than for Aster. 

So exactly what percentage of total cost involves Chinese labor I have no clue, but I would think that makes up a large percentage of any overall production savings Accucraft enjoys. Considering the retail price differential, I wouldn't expect their profits to be extreme, but then again, I don't really know either when you come right down to it. 

Anyway, I've said my piece and will now shut up for a while.


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/18/2008 
Aster will not produce any narrowgauge stuff due to the amount of Accucraft stuff on the market anyway. 
From some of the commentary in this thread, it sounds to me like Aster is missing a real marketing opportunity. " border=0>




In a conversation with Hans he mentioned that a K28 in steam would run at least 7,000 but would need to produce and sell about 200 pcs. Now how many out there would step up to the plate to that and say Id rather have that scale built boiler that runs meths and has an axle pump and proper valve gear with the ability to run for hours..With the already 100 pcs of K27 and 100 K28 and the 50 K36 going to be out there where is the market.....We know Accucraft CAN produce the extras on their locos, after all they have all the valve gear parts already just at the wrong pivot point and needs to have less slop. To a point thats basically all that needs to be done to take a GS4 from non working to working combo levers. Of course retrofitting is not a bolt on job but at the factory it would be just normal assembly. Now if Aster came out with say a Sumpter Valley Mallet I think they would sell and since they have the backround in the articulated locos I know it would be a fine runner. But again it is back to how many would the market bear and probally over 8-9,000 looking at the Garrett going for around 12,000.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 05/18/2008 8:32 PM
So are you saying the "Dealers" should be "tuning" the engines before delivery ??? Not sure their going to like their new responsibility..Are they going to have to be factory "trained""? ??? 




Yes, if we follow the paradigm of auto manufacture and distribution. I don't call that the "BEST" paradigm, but it is one that works... err... maybe... kind'a... almost... ??? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif 

It would eliminate the locos that are damaged in the "sea" trip (though do nothing for what the domestic shippers do to them afterwards). This is actually what some have called for here... ship it initially to a particular steam Guru for "Dealer Prep" and they then deliver it. 

I am sure that some of that is done now and is done "pro bono" amongst "friends", which is probably okay for the "friends" on a onesy-twosy basis. Some may be done on a gratuity basis and maybe some have been done on an hourly rate or "cost plus", but the number that have been done that way is probably very low (per guru). 

I understand that at Diamondhead it is done on a 24 hour basis, and little, if any, "remuneration" changes hands! 

I wonder, what would our "steam guru's" that frequent MLS would charge for this service? Someone here stated they would be willing to spend a couple hundred for it... is that "enough" to make it worth while to anyone?


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing... if there is any "factory training" to be done, it would probably be best if the local steam guru went to China to do the training of the factory!


----------



## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Take a friends C19 Locally my friend spent 4 hours just to get it to limp around the track. It was sent back and worked on by Dave and over 20 hours later it is better then it would ever be from the factory. And no I dont think that a couple hundred would of covered it. Just 100 for shipping there and back plus maybe like 400 more. Shawe charges something like 100 an hr. In the US that converts to about 200. Ouch And his back log is years on a waiting list.


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would a "Aster Snob" like myself even care?????? Well, I have heard that Accucraft is taking orders for a S.P. 2-10-2 just like the engine that sits on static display outside of Minute Maid field here in Houston. That engine was last inspected by my Grand Dad many years ago. Every time I drive past it I feel like I am seeing a old member of my family. So, for the first time I am getting the hankering for a Accucraft engine /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif (I know Jeff, say it aint so......it's sentimental reasons only). Every engine that I own has been factory built and runs great. Because I am not a tinker'er, builder, or good at adjusting /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif I have some concerns about buying a Accucraft engine. All I can do is run em' and tighten the occasional bolt and screw that gets loose from running. I do not want a engine that needs to be rebored, retimed, steam admission changed, resprung, or sent back and forth for warranty work until it runs right. I think I could maybe get used to the valve gear being backwards but that should have been changed years ago too. Maybe this is asking too much for a engine from Accucraft in the 4 to 5K price range. The Factory built Aster Mikado and P8 are in this price range and run great right out of the box. Not all Asters are over 5K.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles M, 

You have a PM. 

Steve, 

The best thing I can say is to wait and see on the F4/5. I highly doubt the engine will see production until late spring 2009, perhaps even fall. 
Once again, you have hit the nail on the head. Even the Aster mikado, a BASIC engine by their standards (Kits didn't even come with an axle pump or handpump) had PROPER working valve gear and correctly dimensioned ports.


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

And having three Shawe built coal fired engines, I can tell everyone that when he delivers one of his engines it is as close to perfection as one can get./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

The engines are well worth the cost and the wait. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif 

They are ready to run out of the box. And the Shawe engines really are a bargain when you consider he not only builds a boiler he also assembles an engine. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

Agreed, John is one of the most respected steam mechanics, plus it's practically his life! He's also a great guy to know and willing to help with just about any engine issue. He finished our K-4 conversion and it runs, well, like a proper engine should. It's a shame the pound-dollar ratio has made the conversions so much more than even four years ago, but they are still worth every penny.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Not matter of the car either being a Hyundai or Porsche both come "tuned" (which is not what dealer prep does) with proper operating systems: overdrive, correct exhaust, valve, gears, and trouble free fuel system, etc as standard equipment. 
For me this is not Aster vs Accucraft but Hyundai vs. Porsche in that NG and SG locomotives relative to productions by Accucraft. 
Accucraft should not be putting the Hyundai parts in a Porsche. Purchasing a SG engine one should get the proper components and output for a SG engine. 

This situation was discussed in 2006 at great length. 

Given that it has resurfaced maybe there is some need to voice the "out of the box" problems to Accucraft. Interesting to re-read the thread in 2006 and Brooks communication he shared: 
"My objection is the Loss of Quality, both of Manufacturing and Engineering at Accucraft. The company has, perhaps for the reasons Chris cited above (death of a principal), gone downhill. Since this thread started, I've received a confidential email from a person who, for business reasons, can't publicly speak. The Quality problem, according to her, is worse than I imagined/experienced. Of the 4 products Acc. has made for her firm, the first was Superb, "The production model was better than the prototype", while the last was Abysmal -- "Never should have left the factory" were the phrases she used. I trust the writer because she had no reason to lie to me about this decline in quality. In fact, since she wishes me to buy the products produced for her firm by Acc. her incentive would have been the other way. She is worried that this loss of quality may force her firm to search for a new supplier (and asked me for advice on that score, which is why she wrote to me in the first place). As it has been pointed out several times in this thread, Acc. is the lowest cost supplier out there, so it's a big decision for her firm - is the price increase of using a different supplier going to kill her company's sales?." "I was struck recently by the comments of a very experienced steamer, an man who has built locos from scratch for 40 years: he had put his Accucraft loco on the shelf because he could not get it to fire and the frustration was too much. A year or so later he decided to try again, built a new part, and had success. I wonder how many lesser-experienced steamers out there have shelved their locos? " "I might add that nowhere in Accucraft advertisements do I see any phrase like "This might not run right out of the box, but with some work on your part it will likely be chugging along in a satisfactory manner." According to their ads, they are not selling "fixer-uppers." 

The reason I selected Brooks is not for his stand on QC but the absence of his voice relative to the this forum and the hobby as a whole. Might that reflect a loss of a "customer" and problem at hand.... 

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37494&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=Quality 
Accucraft words not mine: 
"...we are committed to nothing short of excellence regarding the product." 

I guess I am to the point of frustration with Accucraft SG production. It is one thing to be excused for mistakes on a "first" attempt it is another to know those short comings, been given solutions and then repeat the situation thus establishing a sub par standard for SG.


----------



## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Accucraft may be taking some of this to heart. While I am not an insider, I get the impression that the delay in the 4-4-0 was in part to get things 
better before shipment.


----------



## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

*CHARLES * please run this by me again ! chinese labour is less than $100 per month , and only 2% of US wages. This equates to the average US wage being $20,000 per month ? and you crib about a couple of thousand bucks for a loco. I am sure your figures are wrong , but nevertheless it is totally irrelevant to the price of a loco. Try building a gauge 1 steamer from scratch and see how many hours are consumed , even when you are building something that someone else has already designed. Now when you have built one and sorted all the inevitable faults that were present , tool the job for production , make the necessary jigs and patterns and you will rapidly find that the return on your investment is very small. These are model loco's not autos and sales will rarely justify the cost of developing a new model from scratch - unless the price tag is such that people like you baulk at it. Designing and building a model is a labour of love and not inconsiderable skill so please don't de-value it for the sake of a few dollars that MAY be saved by sourcing some parts in Asia.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby 
I do not believe I have "... de-value it for the sake of a few dollars that MAY be saved by sourcing some parts in Asia." I am indicating the true valve of what you get in the realm of Standard Gauge by Accucraft. 

I do believe that you might be incorrect with "sourcing some parts in Asia" if you are referencing Accucraft. As to my knowledge the entire production is done in China. The savings considerable. Labor rates along with materials and bulk shipping along with many factors determine cost and profit. So, one cannot dimiss labor rates as beginning totally irrelevant(otherwise bring the production to the USA)as to mass production of a product. 

As for the labor rates, if you happened to have read a related post by John on fixing locos via Dave Hottman, the quoted rates were from an economist who did the comparison. If you need to question them, look him up. I believe the math to be more towards $60000 per year plus change(probably without inclusion of benefits)60K/12*2%=$100/month across the nation from the poor rural/inner city to the higher earners of NJ Cal, Conn etc. Here is a job growth report. Please note the $$$ indicated about an average of $35.5 for a college degree in teaching with the most growth potential. Non-college, lack of experience or specialize training about $25K. The overall average between $20K and $43.6K for average of $31.8K (or about $50/month Chinese) Take a look at the report(porjects 2004-2014 and the economy was good in 2004)US Department of Labor: 
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2005/winter/art02.pdf 

Whether or not I can afford an engine for $4449 is not the major point but certainly relevant to every hobbyist budget, lifestyle and other obligations. The point was whether or not for my hard earned money, my pleasure of a hobby should require either skills or extra money to get the locomotive to perform. I say- NO! In fact the premise of this whole discussion is whether there should be "custom tuning offered" which related to performance as determined by draw bar power or tractive effort(MO). For example how can one develop an adjustable exhaust nozzle at this level and for what price relative to cost and performance? Cannot and would not make sense. Yet, there are some fundamental parts that could be established during the mass production (combo levers base line cost were $70 per set plus shipping on a 25 set minimum + extra labor: 6 hours)so about additional $100 to the total cost for a SG level of performance. You going to have to show me the spreadsheet that indicates the cost to be more or that it reduces the profit margin in such a manner as to make it cost prohibitive not to have installed the levers from the factory. 

BTW- I know what it cost, the number of hours and the skills required based on the many, many hours of retrofitting said productions for pennies on the dollar allowing fellow hobbyist to have a good running and properly functioning engine. If my fellow hobbyists had to spend what I did in R & D to obtain the necessary parts I can guarantee that they would not have purchased the base line engine to begin with. 

Finally, placing my name in BOLD and CAPS can be constured as a negative and disrespectful.


----------



## steam8hack (Feb 11, 2008)

Charles: 
Could you tell me the Kwan article with the info you quoted. 

Thanks


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam8hack 
Email sent


----------



## abby (Jan 9, 2008)

If I have been disprespectful then I apologise and I certainly do not want to be negative ,but as an engineer attempting to make a living from producing quality loco's and parts I can assure you that there is no pot o'gold in model making, I could probably earn more per hour cutting grass, but there would be no satisfaction for me doing that. The figures quoted in the post work out to the average american earning $20,000 per MONTH and this was the reason for my reply.


----------



## Kurt Sykes (Feb 28, 2008)

If Accucraft is not making a profit,they would not be in business.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Abby 
Thanks for understanding about the name situation. 
I sent you an email


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...Simple! Because that is all we are willing to pay for... 

I disagree, especially at the price points we're talking about. We're not talking Christmas set trains here. I would expect to have troubles with a New Bright set, but the four figures I'm paying for that includes the two after the decimal point. The trains we're discussing are in no way aimed at the mass market. They're aimed at the discriminating enthusiast who (a) appreciates quality and (b) has the financial ability to pay for it. Implicit in that price is the notion that these trains are top-drawer both in finish and operation. The company promotes themselves as builders of "museum quality" models, not "good enough, but..." When a manufacturer bases their business model on that level of fit and finish, things darned well better run out of the box. 

If you've read my reviews of their locos in GR, you've undoubtedly seen where I've pointed out what--to me--are very nonsensical defects that are easily correctable at the factory. Why they let locos leave the factory with those kinds of flaws simply boggles the mind and I have no qualms with letting them know about it. If I'm paying $4K for a locomotive, I want window glazing in all the windows, not just most of them. I want add-on details to actually fit where they're supposed to be added on. 

It seems completely _crazy_ to me to even contemplate that I'm expecting too much for my money, and I should accept it with those shortcomings because--after all--getting this loco at $4K is a bargain. Not in the financial circles I travel in. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

But, I don't think we should be expecting trouble from New Bright, either. No matter who sells it at whatever price, the product should work out of the box.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree that what comes out of the box should work, whether it is a New Bright, Accucraft or Aster. 

But those three brands offer product at widely different prices. 

WHY? 

I cannot answer with "absolutes" as I have no idea what the processes are that produce the products or what they cost or what the profit margin is for any of the companies. 

TO ME, it is obviously a difference in raw material costs, amount of material, engineering of the product and the process that produces the product, advertising, shipping, and the profit margin the company is expecting. 

Apparently, the people that are "in the know" but still purchase the New Bright product, expect it to be made of plastic and pot metal and to not be engineered nor manufactured to work well, or to work well for very long. (Those that are not "in the know", either take the unit back to the store for a refund or say, "Well, what did you expect? It was cheap!" and throw it away. Either that, or they only run it an hour or two per year for just a couple of years and then it gets sold at a garage sale where the next owner doesn't care how good it is as they only paid $5.00 for it.) 

Now as to the Accucraft and Aster compareson... The companies both have an engineering department of some sort and a manufacturing setup, either 'in-house' or contracted out, and some sort of sales force. 

I gather the assumption is that if both companies made similar models of similar locomotives, the Aster one would be more expensive and the Accucraft one would be less expensive. 

The question then, is WHY? 

The answer could be one or more of many causes. 

1) Aster is reaping a windfall profit from their good name, or Accucraft is not making as much profit trying to increase their part of the market share. 
2) Labor charges are different for the two companies. 
3) Aster's subcontractors are charging more for the piece parts, than Accucraft's. 
.... which raises similar questions and answers as to "why?" 
4) Aster performs some manufacturing step that Accucraft does not. 
5) Aster's assembly process is being performed by more skilled personell that Accucraft's. 

There are probably a dozen other things (in various possible combinations) that might account for the difference in price. 

The ASSUMPTION by some of us on this forum is that the price difference is primarily my number 4 above, influenced by number 5 ... i.e.: that Accucraft is skipping a manufacturing step and that step is in the QC department to get the assemblers' quality up to snuff. 

I agree that if you plunk down a four digit figure for a "toy" it ought'a work right out of the box. But it is possible that if Accucraft were to implement the QC function that would get that result for you, you might, JUST MIGHT, have to add another 3 or 4 digit figure to the price, bringing the price to something similar to what Aster charges. 

I, personally own two Aster locomotives and I cannot claim that they worked "right out of the box" because when the came out of the box The piece parts and nuts and bolts were in little plastic bags. They did work "right out of my hands", but that compareson is not at all fair. 

I have seen and operated a couple of Accucraft locos and although they DID work "right out of the box" (I helped unpack them and fire them up) they had a couple of problems that were easily corrected. And there were a couple of things that "I" would have engineered differently, but then the same is true of my car, my TV, my telephone answering machine, my house, my computer and the new mouse that I just bought for it (and threw across the room when it revealed itself to be akin to dung in operation) and my two Aster locomotives. 

If New Bright, Aster and Accucraft were all to produce a 1:32 scale model of the "General" (of American Civil War fame), I suspect that the Aster would be more expensive than the Accucraft and the Accucraft to be more expensive than the New Bright. 

But that price differential would be indicative of some difference in the models... either variance in "engineering", "details", "materials", "construction" or some other thing that might influence my decision as to which one I would be tripping all over myself to purchase. 

If the only difference I could perceive was profit margin, I would be buying the cheapest one! 

If the difference is in construction faux pas I might go for the cheapest one and hope that my talents can make up for that difference... then again, I may recognize my limitations and go for the higher priced one; yet, it is possible that I would gain nothing for my additional outlay. 

You want an Aster at a New Bright price... or somewhere between those extremes... the question then is, what reduces the price to the one you are willing to pay, without complaining that you paid too much for what you got. Personally, I think the New Bright is too expensive for what I would get, the Accucraft is pretty close to delivering what is paid for, and the Aster is well worth the price. 

If you think the Accucraft is not as good as the price charged, then I have a wireless mouse you can have (it has only been thrown across the room once and it still works as poorly as it did yesterday when it was new!)


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Charles, I'll let you enjoy your wireless mouse. Heaving it across the room is--at the very least--therapeutic. (I've had the same luck with wireless mice. At least they fly well.) 

I agree that if you plunk down a four digit figure for a "toy" it ought'a work right out of the box. But it is possible that if Accucraft were to implement the QC function that would get that result for you, you might, JUST MIGHT, have to add another 3 or 4 digit figure to the price, bringing the price to something similar to what Aster charges.

I think people would be willing to pay that straight out. When someone buys a loco on this level, I think price is a secondary consideration. It's still a factor, but people who want a live steam {insert favorite loco here} will pay just to have one on their roster. Obviously there's a limit, but I don't think an extra few hundred, or even $1,000 would be a deal breaker. It's a significant purchase--for many of us a once-in-a-lifetime type thing. A little extra isn't going to dissuade someone in that position. Clearly, Aster's been able to sell 5-figure locomotives, so I think the rule is--if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way. 

I think the game changes a bit with locos priced in the $1K range, as they're appealing to a slightly broader market. I'd still have to buy my wife something really special in exchange for a $1,500 loco, but it's a bit more in line with other purchases like computers, cameras, and things like that. Price is more of a consideration here, because someone just "testing the waters" so to speak, who just wants a live steam _something_ will go with what appeals to him/her, but balanced more with what they want to spend. In my opinion, folks in this market are less prone to spend extra money if they don't have to. 

Locomotives in both price ranges _should_ run very well right out of the gate. The former, because at that price point the buyer expects it to; the latter because the manufacturer needs it to in order to hook the customer and get them to eventually buy the more expensive product line. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The dumb mousy is an interesting analogy here. I paid twice the price of a wired mouse and got less than a tenth the functionality... WAY LESS! It shuts down if not moved every few seconds. It randomly looses contact with the computer and I have to used the keyboard shortcuts to call the "Reset" program and go through an elaborate sequence of button pushing to regain control. The mouse arrow moves in spits and spurts, not always in the direction I move the mouse. The scroll wheel doesn't scroll the screen the same amount "down" and it does "up" for the same movement of the wheel... even moving the wheel one 'detent' per second or less. Sometimes the screen goes the opposite way in a series of wheel moves in one direction. 

I have tried all sorts of variations in the settings for all the features: speed, acceleration, etc. I tried the original drivers as well as the latest from the manufacturer's web site. 

All in all, dribbling a basketball, blindfolded, on a "touch pad" would be less frustrating to control the mouse arrow. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif 

It is in this that I understand the people that say they want the Accucraft loco to run right "out of the box" --- I "expect" the mouse to work "correctly" -- "right out of the box"! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif 

I thought I'd get what I paid for! I paid an Aster price and got a New Bright garage sale reject! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif 

Throwing it across the room was not nearly theraputic enough. Regardless of the $40.00 I paid for it, it is the fact that it would be environmentally irresponsible to pretend the mouse is a spike and test my aim with my genuine Burlington Route RR spike hammer. 

What's worse to admit is that this is the third try in 6 years to get a wireless mouse. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif I love the idea, but they DO NOT WORK.


----------



## LindaH (Jan 5, 2008)

To add a possible 10 pennies-worth to this invaluable discussion is to introduce the notion of disparate charging; some call it robbing; by the British merchants. 
In the UK LP's, CD'S, all computers, most electronic gear and in our focus of interest - model steam locomotives, exhibit much higher prices than North Americans would ever tolerate. I can only winge here. I recently purchased an Accucraft SP Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 AC11 #4274, Live Steam, 1 of only 2 imported into the UK (btw. it was smashed but the Dealer fixed it quickly). The magnificent looking loco. was extremely expensive. I give beneath a comparative price listing: - USA 6950.00 USD; Germany 7223.00 Euro = 11,243.00 USD; UK 5950.00 GBP = 11,629.00 USD. 

In conclusion to this thread is the notion that if North America is being short done by then there are much worse places that need a (superheated) tea-party ... 
LindaH


----------



## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Linda, 
This disparate pricing with any product which is imported from its primary /first market is not dealers "robbing" people. 
Looking at recent import shipment costing , this is what happens. 
[1] Ex Warehouse price in USA , dealer cost [same as all US dealers] 

[2] USA frieght charges to air port/shipper . 

[3] air frieght charges. 

[4] Import treminal charges. 

[5] Import documnatation charge. 

[6] customs processing charges. 

[7] quarantine processing chrarges. 

[8] airport terminal charge.Handling etc. 

[9] air frieght agency fee. 

[10] Local trucking charge , Airport to Destination. 


all these charges are added together. and then ! Goods and services taxat 10% is applied to the total. 

This results in a CIS [ Cost into Store] which is approximately 160% of the CIS for a USA dealer.. 

in the Case of UK the Tax added is at 17.5%!!! 

surprise surprise , the selling prices are then about 160-170% of US street prices! there is no mystery or thievery involved. 

There are no Dealers/Importers driving around in Rolls Royces that I know! the only way you avoid these costs is to only buy in the Country where Goods are actually made or which is the primary distribution market. 

If people are motivated enough to purchase by Mail Order direct from US discount box shifters , thats fine but be aware that Warranty does not apply outside US and labour costs will be charged for any work needed.. I know of one person whos has 2 shelf queens less than a year old . wont pay the local importer to repair and the US retailer wont help either..


----------



## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

And I thought that it was just the election that was divided /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif 

Sometimes it is enough to agree to disagree and move on.  

Maybe a Duel, each locomotive to take ten ties to the turntable turn and fire up..... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, as we move on- the running tally (as I intrepet it- hanging chad and all) should indicate to Accucraft what customers feedback was on the topic of tuning and out of the box RTR: 

Tally of responses (only one tally given per contributor) 

12- RTR (no extra expense or tuning necessary) 
01- Tuning might be worth the option 
01- Value for the dollar from the as is production run 
06- Offering suggestions, or neutral or off topic or other related topic information 

However one looks at the responses, this sampling of what is important to the customer: RTR tops the list.


----------



## davidarf (Jan 2, 2008)

Taperpin 

I feel that I must come in on your comments and state that I cannot agree with you. I regularly purchase from dealers in the USA and have goods posted to me in the UK. My most recent, after paying very high carriage charges, import duty, import clearing charge and then VAT on all of this (note not just 17.5% VAT)worked out at 62 GBP (122 USD)per item. Exactly the same items from a UK dealer would cost me 129 GBP (254 USD) plus delivery charges from the dealership. The points that you make cannot justify this price differential. I was buying at retail prices from a dealer who I presume has already had to add in import duty and carriage charges to get the items to that dealership, and I presume that the UK dealership would be buying at wholesale prices from the manufacturer. Now I cannot say that this price differential is all down to the dealer, or whether the manufacturer is adding an extra margin, but recent investigations on UK television have highlighted just how much UK and European legislation is biased against UK customers to protect high pricing in the UK. 

------------------------------------------------------------- 
On the original topic of this thread I can only comment on my own limited experience of buying 3 ready to run steam locomotives. Two of these are Accucraft and both ran well from the start. I have since made extensive cosmetic changes to one of these. The other locomotive, my first as it happens, was a real problem from the start and went back to the manufacturer twice for remedial work. It then took me about 3 or 4 years of enhancements and modifications to get the locomotive to the point where it runs to my satisfaction. I am very pleased with the standard of the locomotives I have had from Accucraft and I would certainly give positive consideration to that supplier again should they come up with models of the prototypes I would like to add to my railway. 

David


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem is that it is so "hit or miss" on if you get a good runner. There is no doubt that "some" run well out of the box, its the rest that are the problem.


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

The figures quoted in the post work out to the average american earning $20,000 per MONTH and this was the reason for my reply.


You meant to tell me that the 'average American' doesn't earn $20,000 a month? I may have gotten it wrong here, but are you saying that no American earns as little as $20,000 a month? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 

I really don't know how you can survive on only $20,000 a month. Certainly my old pal Perry, who collects Duesenbergs, pre-war biplanes, Riva powerboats and golf courses, couldn't manage on so little, he tells me. His wife, Dwyla, prolly spends that much on her hair and shoes. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 

I 'spose that it's all relative - we filled up both our old cars here this morning at a supermarket - one cost just under $135 and the other just over $145... 

As for the comments from Mr ARF and LindaH about rip-off UK, this is far too 
well-known to be a myth. The very clothes I'm wearing right now are mostly British-made, and by buying them in Oregon they cost me half the price I would pay for them here. 

Both our Mercedes-Benz cars were bought on mainland Europe, and the difference between the UK price for our ML350 and the exact identical car bought in The Netherlands was enough to pay for a three month vacation in Canada and NWP USA, including hiring a three-bedroomed rental house - and there was sufficient spare cash to buy a nice little runabout convertible instead of renting one. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 05/19/2008 10:42 PM
I love the idea, but they DO NOT WORK. 




I have three here in UK and they all work. 

I'm using it right now. 

I have about three hundred in Tokyo, and THEY all work too. Always have done. 

Logitech cordless CLICK! mouse. 

Try one. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

The reason we 'mericuns is so rich is becuz of the expense, red tape and the hoops one has to jump through in order to be declared po'. Not only that we just caint afford to be indigent, but it is just too much trouble. 

They say the first million dollars is the hardest, so I skipped it altogether and am now working on my second... I have now decided to skip that and go on to my third or fourth since I am nowhere near getting it. 

... 

tac: What do the 3 tailless rodents you have in the UK, and the 300 in Tokyo, do when they "work"? What kind of "work"? ... Paper weight or door stop? What brand of tranquillizer is most common amongst the folk whose hands are super-glued to them? Have you considered the 1,000,000 percent increase in productivity that would be realized if the people using them were allowed to use something a bit more accurate and rapid in operation (say, like putting a bunch of cats on a huge touch-pad and "herding" them around on it using Ferrets as sheepdogs)?


----------



## bigsteam (Mar 6, 2008)

tac: 

Charles was only speaking for himself. He's a principal at one of those "RICH" Eastern schools, and we "KNOW, they all make a fortune teaching, etc. there. Now if he worked at a more moderate mid-western school, he would only be bringing home $15,000 a month. 

John


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

John, 

I do believe you have got prying eyes, or perhaps you work for the IRS ? Either way I'm sure that our family would love to make 20k a month...but that just does not happen /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif. 

Usage of smilies next time would probably help from me seeing this an an attack. I would hope that you were just funning here, but if you were not, harassment and calling out are against forum rules. The post will be reported unless intervened with an explanation.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

John 
I assume your post is in reference to me. Please forward me a job application. I am well qualifed and many years left in this ol' frame (the mind seems to be going at times, maybe too much steam exhaust). This would be a win-win situation for me. I could retire from NJ, collect a pension, then work another 10 years in the "mid-west" earning a second pension (@$180K/yr...just don't tell TAC) while reducing my cost of living! 
Then I could visit the Michigan group and all my friends named Tom(4 of them)for steamups and be closer to Diamondhead (depending where in the mid west). 
Never though of MLS as a job network but I await your envelope. 


TAC- I just heard how much gas was in jolly ol England. Might have to start using steam for other situations that just hobby. Need to bring back the Stanley Steamer!


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Case in point: 

If you go to the "Informative Threads Index" at the top of the Live Steam Forum you will find that 8 out of the 14 listings are on how to improve/fix "Problems" with Accucraft engines. 

We all agree on: 
Because of their production in China, they have been able to produce Locos in the price range that has resulted in so many new folks getting into live steam. This is very good. Their attention to detail (Labor intensive) for the price is great. They have offered many, many models in a short period of time (maybe part of the problem). Anyway, I still think that if Accucraft could figure out a way to ratchet up the quality control on the design and running side, people would be willing to pay more for their products in the end because it would result in overall better running and longer lasting engines.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Steve,


Your right on track with your points. 

I do agree that although it is good to tickle everyone's fancy for locomotives/rollingstock, there is a limit and you most certainly can't please everyone. This I think has hurt the QC by rushing out the locomotives in order to meet the deadlines of "pushy" consumers. Unfortunately, this results in more problems than not, and the "pushy" consumer becomes an "aggravated" consumer. 


Aster has gotten where they are today by picking specific prototypes that they think (judging on the public feedback of buyers at shows) will be good selling engines. 

Of course, this is all my humble opinion


----------



## Jim Overland (Jan 3, 2008)

Good summary Steve, 

And when they are running good, they are oh so good 

Part of the hobby is helping new steamers and each other achieve take off 

jim


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the fact that Roundhouse runs in all their locos before shipping. Subsequently, they have the well earned reputation-- "runs like a Roundhouse". 
I would suggest Accucraft set up a shop where they receive all the live steam locos from China. Have someone like Dave (or a team of Daves!)run each and every one of them and make sure when they go out, they're right. Realistically it would not be that expensive--a couple of hours of his time would go a long way! I guarantee they could easily recover that cost in the price of the locomotives if the customer knew it had been set up properly. They don't need to be supertuned--just make sure the basics are in right (timing etc.) 

Keith


----------



## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

So far no one has mentioned the Aristo-Craft Mikado. 

As with Accrucraft, I have never owned the Midado but have observed several. 

Of the first several Aristo-Craft Mikados I saw only one ran "out-of-the-box." My observation indicates this engine has both design and quality problems. 

Yes, they are now advertising a new and improved version. 

What bothers me is that this engine was intended to be a first (introductory) live steam engine. The question is whether the owners leave live steam in disgust do to lack of satisfaction with these engines. I doubt they will be as enthused about live steam as I was after getting my first Roundhouse engine. 

Oh yes, and I doubt I would be as enthused as I am if my first engine had been a Accrucraft. 

Dave


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the fact that Roundhouse runs in all their locos before shipping. Subsequently, they have the well earned reputation-- "runs like a Roundhouse". 


Hello Keith, this was metioned a while back on this thread. Many feel that doing something like this would: 

Throw a wrench in the works in China, or if it were done here in the U.S., after the fact of the loco being built would add too much to the end price of the engine. It would be tougher to do then it sounds. Just packing and repacking a engine would probably take more time then it would take for a craftsman like Dave to tune it. I am not saying that this could not be figured out and done, and I do believe that most would pay more to be insured that they would get a great running engine out of the box each time.


----------



## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith 
Yes, having QC process for running would be a help but not the answer. The problem is not if the engine can run, most do more to the fact that the engines have faults in the design work. It is the process of developing the engine that is the key more so than the end result needing fixing. That is were the true QC and team work is needed(as I believe the CP Hudson is). 

I believe one answer is the type of QC offered by Gordon as a dealer(Gordon correct me if I have your service generalized wrong). A purchase with Gordon cames with his skills to make sure the engine will run at a satisfactory level or he will not allow it to go forth to the customer. 

Steve- Another good statement that helps to define a process that Accucraft should have in place. Cost effective to "do it right" at the point of assembly. 

Steve- Very good observation on the Informational forum relative to the Accucraft line of steam engines. The only thing that would hammer it home would be what percentage of the model is represented with a particular "fix it" need (for example most first round Rubies need the eccentrics rotated to run better in forward).


----------



## bigsteam (Mar 6, 2008)

Ryan: 

I just type in the box below, it says "Quick Reply." I don't know how to do faces, smiley or otherwise. 

John


----------



## bigsteam (Mar 6, 2008)

Charles: 

The Stanley was fired with liquid fuels, and with the lack of efficiency, tremendous heat losses, it would be even more expensive than internal combustion. 

The way to go would be the Stirling engine. The Philips Stirling Engine, Netherlands, has shown great efficiency. The technology is there, extreme internal high pressure, regenerators, etc, and cars have been successfully powered by them. 

John 

John


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

You folk seem to have forgotten the little flap a couple of years ago where a vendor opened a box to run a loco and then had to sell it as "USED"!


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that Charles and Ryan have such a good grasp on the Accucraft situation and try diligently to improve things. Thye try to bring a certain sense of humor to the challenge. With the subtle sense of humor either could play a special part in a favorite movie, Mell Brook's great movie Blazing Saddles, The character for either of them of course would be Mell Brook's character the Governor William J. Lepetomane. Mell Brook's depiction of the Governor was a thorough comic relief as he too tried to make a contribution to solving the problems of the town of Rock Ridge. If Brooks ever does a remake you both should try out.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 

Do I get the big stogie and the GOV jacket to boot? The secretary can be added on after the fact.  

A little like this is ok by me:


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Where did you find the picture I tried the movie sites and could not find one with both Harvey Korman and Brooks? I want to play Korman's character Hedley Lamarr. Sure, a much bigger stogie!


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Considering the kinds of "affairs of State" the Gov was normally involved in, I think I'd by far prefer to play the Gov!


----------



## timlee49 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmmm! Just read all of the above. AMAZING!! 

Down here in the Land of Oz we have had consumer protection laws for as long as I have been 
in retail sales i.e. from 1964. 

The first is that an item offered for sale or sold and delivered to the purchaser must be "of merchantable quality". Not broken, bent out of shape, missing parts, rotten or offensive. 

The second is that an item offered for sale or sold and delivered to the purchaser must be "fit for the 
purpose intended", so the item must immediately perform it's function for the purchaser and not require modification, adjusment or adaptation beyond reasonable "running in" for mechanical items. All corrections 
to be undertaken by the vendor at the vendor's cost including transport both ways of the item if 
neccessary. 

(I paraphase the legislation and regulations, but that is the position) 

Continued breaches of the above will attract the attention of both State and Federal agencies that have no mercy. 

You guys need to elect pollies that work for you. 

Tim


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...You guys need to elect pollies that work for you. 

Aye, there's the rub. 

Later, 

K


----------



## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Please,........Please,..............Lets not let this turn into a political debate.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

If'n everybody would just do it MY way, there would be no debate!


----------



## Tom Burns (May 11, 2008)

OK, I'm really lost. 

Would somebody please explain how this string got diverted from a discussion on the minimum acceptable level of out of the box quality to Blazing Saddles? 

I don't even recall this “Western” movie even having the minimum requirements of including a 2 second shot of steam locomotive although the first scene had a hand car getting stuck in quicksand (don’t ask if you somehow were not alive in 1977 or have never otherwise seen this movie). 

Perhaps me being lost has something to do with the fact that the second picture on Page 4 holds my attention to the extent that and I am unable to read the remaining posts on Page 4 and follow the discussion logic, or lack there of. 

Would somebody please post something on Page 5 to set my rerailing frogs on this discussion. It sucks to be derailed so easily by big set of (you get the idea). 

Tom Burns


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you believe that "Blazing Saddles" had the minimal acceptable quality level "out of the box"?


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom: 

Sorry my fault, I thought Blazing Saddles did have a train shot in it. It was a western. 


Charles T. 

Well, it was out of the can, but yes. After all it was a Mell Brooks film.


----------



## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Thread drift isn't all that uncommon Tom. Things get off track (no pun intended) a little as folks try and have a little fun. It'll get back on topic assuming there's anything left to say. Otherwise it'll simply die off.


----------



## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Just wondering.... a title that matches the visuals 

Maybe having to do with guys getting all "steamed up" about a well equipped loco, in a symbolic way, given that most refer to their engines as "she" was very impressive under steam... when summarizing their day of running around.


----------

