# "Forced" to get DCC



## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, it's finally happened. My hand has been "forced" and I will finally have to upgrade to DCC. My good friend and partner in railroading crime told me today he was tired of my dithering and wavering about DCC so he had procured a full Digitrax system (command station, booster, and throttle) for me so I now had no choice but to upgrade lol. I am, however, responsible for decoders, sound, and smoke. So my question here is for suggestions on where to with this. Here's what I've got as far as motive power goes.

I've got 6 locomotives that are regular runners

LGB 23192 C&S Bear Trap Mogul with a Soundtraxx Sierra sound
LGB 2119D LG&B Mogul also with Soundtraxx Sierra
LGB 20252 LG&B Forney with Factory Sound

Bachmann Annie with Factor Chuff

Bachmann Connie with Phoenix sound (not sure what module but relatively old so assume 2k2)
Bachmann two truck Shay with no sound 


I've got a few more (none with any sound) that I like to run but generally not as often as these 6 so if we have to wait to upgrade them its ok

LGB 2018D DSP&P Mogul
LGB 2017D 0-4-0 American Stainz with powered tender 

Aristocraft C-16 


What I'm looking for:

First up, cost is an issue. I cannot afford to go and put Phoenix's plus decoders and smoke units in everything all at once. The least expensive route up front would be to leave everything as is and only get sound for the Annie and Shay while just getting plain non sound decoders for the Connie and LGB's. Problem is I don't care for the sound of the Sierras and if am going to replace them at some point anyway, and if their replacement is an all in one sound decoder, its probably more cost effective just to do that now since I have to get decoders for the Digitraxx.


Smoke - I've posted in other threads about smoke units so I'll try not to belabor the point that I'd want some sort of synchronized chuffing smoke unit, but I realize sufficient space in the engine is going to be an issue with the LGB loco's, so I may potentially have different units in them versus the Bachmanns. I think I like the volume of the USA and MTH best, but I'm guessing the Massoth and Zimo units are the more compact. I like the chuffing of the Massoth best, with a good constant stream in between chuffs (although speaking to Axel at Train Li, at least the Zimo's should be able to be programmed to produce that same effect), but its pricey.


Sound wise - Our layout is setup to just run as a loop, so I'd like someway to have automatic bells and whistles triggered at certain points so I don't have to always be hitting the triggers on the throttle. Also, the layout isl D&RGW narrow gauge, and I'm pretty picky about things sounding representative of that railroad (I've been to CO and ridden the D&SNG and the sound of those Rio Grande 5 chimes echoing off the canyons is permanently imprinted in my memory and to me is a distinctive part of capturing what it's like to be there) 



MTH, Massoth, and ESU all sound great but do not offer Rio Grande prototype sounds. 

QSI - listened to their stuff both on their site and watched a bunch of youtube videos. Not at all impressed with the quality of the sound. not an option. 

Zimo- I have spoken to Axel at Train Li about getting some samples of Zimo's Rio Grande (T-12, C-16, K-27) sounds to see how they are (if anyone here has experience with them and especially recordings of them in action, love to hear your impressions). 

Phoenix - I by far the best sounding that I've listened to so far and I like that I can use triggers (I think its the only one to meet that requirement), but downsides are the lack of variation in chuffs with load and speed, and of course $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Tsunami - probably second choice after Phoenix based on sound and really really really like the price. However, I've seen some questions raised here over how the TSU-1000 unit will work with large scale. I know it can't function as a decoder for the engine. Will it work as as just a sound decoder with a separate decoder set up to run the engine? How will that impact smoke synchro and load/speed adjustments to the sound (which my understanding is the unit does, similar to the Zimo and QSI)? 


Final thought is that the person who got me the digitrax is a good friend, model railroading enthusiast, and card carrying Mensa Ph.D engineering student all rolled into one, so saying that something will be a "challenge" or require "creative engineering" is not an issue. He'll enjoy the challenge (his N scale P42's have prototypical sounds and full llighting including alternating ditch lights).


Ok that's it that I can think of so far. Let me know if there's anything else I should be considering or thinking about.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You need to hear these units in person. You cannot trust what you hear on the internet. You also need to hear the sounds on "good" installations, not ones done improperly. 

You are missing out by dismissing the QSI. (by the way, you listened to the QSI sounds on their site? How? They don't have the sounds on their site, you have do download the Q2Upgrade software and even then you only hear a tiny fraction of the sounds, since that software is basically for loading the decoder.) 

The Massoth, ESU and Zimo are all good technologically, but have limited sound libraries. 

Then Phoenix is great sounds, best library, but least advanced technologically. 

The Tusnami is not a good choice for LS, for reasons given before. 

If you want smoke synchronization in addition to quality sound, you need to revise your priorities, cost is NOT an issue. You can have all these features and pay, or a lot less features (smoke and sound features) and do it cheap. 

You need to think of what will do the job. 

Oh, I have or have had all the above at my house in person, and in locos. 

You are at the beginning of having enough information to make your choice, but sound like you may have unrealistic requirements considering low cost. 

Maybe you should set your sights lower, buy MRC steam sound units for $60, and wait on the smoke... You may have 80% of the sound quality of a top quality sound decoder and motor control. Then upgrade later to your smoke. This way you could at least run your trains.

If I was going to meet your requirements (and had a decent set of sound libraries available), I'd probably go Zimo decoders, MTH smoke units and fit chuff cams (reed or hall effect triggers). 



Regards, Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Feb 2011 07:17 PM 
You need to hear these units in person. You cannot trust what you hear on the internet. You also need to hear the sounds on "good" installations, not ones done improperly. 

You are missing out by dismissing the QSI. (by the way, you listened to the QSI sounds on their site? How? They don't have the sounds on their site, you have do download the Q2Upgrade software and even then you only hear a tiny fraction of the sounds, since that software is basically for loading the decoder.) 

The Massoth, ESU and Zimo are all good technologically, but have limited sound libraries. 

Then Phoenix is great sounds, best library, but least advanced technologically. 

The Tusnami is not a good choice for LS, for reasons given before. 

If you want smoke synchronization in addition to quality sound, you need to revise your priorities, cost is NOT an issue. You can have all these features and pay, or a lot less features (smoke and sound features) and do it cheap. 

You need to think of what will do the job. 

Oh, I have or have had all the above at my house in person, and in locos. 

You are at the beginning of having enough information to make your choice, but sound like you may have unrealistic requirements considering low cost. 

Maybe you should set your sights lower, buy MRC steam sound units for $60, and wait on the smoke... You may have 80% of the sound quality of a top quality sound decoder and motor control. Then upgrade later to your smoke. This way you could at least run your trains.

If I was going to meet your requirements (and had a decent set of sound libraries available), I'd probably go Zimo decoders, MTH smoke units and fit chuff cams (reed or hall effect triggers). 



Regards, Greg 
I guess low cost is a relative phrase...I know this could easily turn into a $1000+ expenditure very quickly, but there's a big difference between spending say $350 on a zimo decoder and smoke unit or a phoenix sound, digitrax decoder, and massoth smoker for what I'm calculating could be several hundred $ more. So guess suggest several options with guesses on pricing and I'll figure out from there how much I want to spend, and the best way to do it. I'll spend more now if it'll save some in the future (ie buying sound decoders I like for all even though some locos already have sound), but if, for example, I decide to go the Phoenix sound, mth smoke, and zimo decoder route, I'd prob get the smoke and decoders for all and hold off on the sound except for maybe the two locos currently without any, upgrading the existing sound systems in the future. 


Can an MTH smoke unit even fit in an LGB Mogul or Forney though, much less a 2017? I know the Zimo one requires mods to the Mogul chassis and its not as big as an MTH.

Far as he QSI goes, they do have sound samples posted on their website.http://qsisolutions.com/sounds/whistles.html I listened to those, downloaded the software to listen to them on my computer, did a youtube search and watched the videos of installs I could find, and did this on multiple compters to try to control for speaker quality. Never was really impressed with any of the ones I heard, Rio Grande or otherwise. If I could hear one in person to listen to, that'd be great. Unfortunately, there aren't any other guys here in our local club that I've met and who are into Colorado narrow gauge so options to listen to any of the above in person are limited to non existent.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The MTH units are not really expensive or large since they have no electronics associated with them. I'll measure the one I received recently and put it up on my smoke unit page on my site. 

That sound samples page is new, mia culpa! Well I have heard the Phoenix and the QSI side by side, pretty close. If you don't like those sounds (and they are a little different sounding than on my decoders, sounds like something has been done to the bass, and I hear some distortion), then the only way to go is the Phoenix. 

The German decoders all depend on wav files, contributed, and they are not as good as the ones jealously guarded by Phoenix and QSI. 

You definitely have Mercedes taste. 

I think you should buy one of those new $60 MRC decoders and try it out yourself. Go for the gusto on your 2 favorite locos. 

Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Feb 2011 08:37 PM 
The MTH units are not really expensive or large since they have no electronics associated with them. I'll measure the one I received recently and put it up on my smoke unit page on my site. 

That sound samples page is new, mia culpa! Well I have heard the Phoenix and the QSI side by side, pretty close. If you don't like those sounds (and they are a little different sounding than on my decoders, sounds like something has been done to the bass, and I hear some distortion), then the only way to go is the Phoenix. 

The German decoders all depend on wav files, contributed, and they are not as good as the ones jealously guarded by Phoenix and QSI. 

You definitely have Mercedes taste. 

I think you should buy one of those new $60 MRC decoders and try it out yourself. Go for the gusto on your 2 favorite locos. 

Greg 


They definitely do sound distorted. I'd love to hear one in person but I don't want to risk spending that sort of $ on something I may end up not liking at all.


MRC doesn't have Rio Grande sounds, at least that I can see on their website, and that is a mandatory requirement. if I'm gonna go with a non sound decoder, I can get digitrax locally for less than $60.



And I'm insulted by your suggestion that I'd ever be caught dead in one of those overweight lazy automatic sleds with too much power and no finesse. I have better taste than that. I'll take my German cars stick shift, with six cylinders in a row like God intended, and rolling on a balanced, well sorted chassis tuned with Bavarian black magic. In short, I'll accept nothing less than the Ultimate Driving Machine.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

I will add that I have high hopes for the Zimo sounds. I went and listened to some of their other American Prototype and the seem to sound pretty good. Especially liked the UP Turbine. Dunno if that's what the real one sounded like but the Turbine start was convincing...I spend all day listening to turbine engines start up (work at the airport) and I felt like I was back at work. Sounded suspiciously like a Bell Jet Ranger so not sure if that's where they got the sound. Far as Phoenix and Qsi being all proprietary about their sounds, its not like there's a shortage of operating Rio Grande locos that you can get up close and personal to and get sound recordings from so I'd hope they sound accurate (although I'm curious as to where the T-12 sound comes from considering the only two survivors are not running).


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

If you're specifically wanting the sounds of the D&RGW Ks, then Phoenix is probably going to be your best option. They've got I think 4 K-something-or-other whistles in their sound library, each recorded from a K-something-or-other. (A fact which I was reminded of the other day when on hold with the D&S. I knew that whistle sounded familiar.) On the flip side, none of your locos are D&RGW K-something-or-others, so while the sound may be a good match to the prototype, they may sound particularly out of place on something as diminutive as a Forney. Thus the sound libraries of the other decoders may be more apropos to your purposes and you can save a good chunk of money. 

Another consideration--the speaker on the locomotive. Something like the Bachmann 2-8-0 has room in the tender for a pretty beefy speaker, so a high-quality sound system can kick some serious butt in that case. The smaller locos may not have room for quite as nice of a speaker, so the sound fidelity of one system vs the other may be wasted by the speaker that can't capitalize on it. I had a Phoenix installed in one tender with a 2" wafer speaker in it. When I replaced it with an older Sierra (with a recording of the same whistle), it sounded very similar despite the Phoenix being a higher-quality recording. 

One correction - the Phoenix does vary the chuff in relation to changes in speed. It does not vary with load, but as the load increases and you increase the throttle to compensate, the chuff changes in response to that throttle change. Similar in terms of what you hear, but not automatic. You have to adjust the throttle (or have a throttle that adjusts the voltage automatically to maintain a constant speed.) 

One more thought--as to automatically triggering sounds... Check with DCC BitSwitch. He's got a lot of DCC-based automatic controls--things that trigger DCC functions based on passing over track sensors, etc. I don't know if he's got anything that specifically would trigger a whistle or bell, but he'd probably know who might. 


Later, 

K


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By East Broad Top on 23 Feb 2011 01:04 AM 
If you're specifically wanting the sounds of the D&RGW Ks, then Phoenix is probably going to be your best option. They've got I think 4 K-something-or-other whistles in their sound library, each recorded from a K-something-or-other. (A fact which I was reminded of the other day when on hold with the D&S. I knew that whistle sounded familiar.) On the flip side, none of your locos are D&RGW K-something-or-others, so while the sound may be a good match to the prototype, they may sound particularly out of place on something as diminutive as a Forney. Thus the sound libraries of the other decoders may be more apropos to your purposes and you can save a good chunk of money. 

Another consideration--the speaker on the locomotive. Something like the Bachmann 2-8-0 has room in the tender for a pretty beefy speaker, so a high-quality sound system can kick some serious butt in that case. The smaller locos may not have room for quite as nice of a speaker, so the sound fidelity of one system vs the other may be wasted by the speaker that can't capitalize on it. I had a Phoenix installed in one tender with a 2" wafer speaker in it. When I replaced it with an older Sierra (with a recording of the same whistle), it sounded very similar despite the Phoenix being a higher-quality recording. 

One correction - the Phoenix does vary the chuff in relation to changes in speed. It does not vary with load, but as the load increases and you increase the throttle to compensate, the chuff changes in response to that throttle change. Similar in terms of what you hear, but not automatic. You have to adjust the throttle (or have a throttle that adjusts the voltage automatically to maintain a constant speed.) 

One more thought--as to automatically triggering sounds... Check with DCC BitSwitch. He's got a lot of DCC-based automatic controls--things that trigger DCC functions based on passing over track sensors, etc. I don't know if he's got anything that specifically would trigger a whistle or bell, but he'd probably know who might. 


Later, 

K 
Point taken, should clarify that the Forney would preferably be keeping its factory LGB digital sound system which I'm very happy with, and am not as picky about what goes in the Shay. Not sure what size speakers we're using in the Moguls but the guy who did the sound install likes and only uses Zimos no matter who's sound goes in, and whatever the biggest one he can fit in there. It makes quite a racket. The Connie is being bashed into a quasi K-27 and using a Big Hauler tender so isn't quite as big as stock. For the other locos, listening to both the Phoenix and Soundtraxx sound libraries and watching videos of the smaller surviving Rio Grande engines in operation, it looks like a mix of hooters and 5 chimes would probably work ( Phoenix has both the C-16 and C-21 using 5 chimes, while the K-27 gets the hooter). From what I've read about them and seen in pics, the D&RGW was known for mix-matching paint jobs, liveries, letterings, tenders, and I'd imagine probably whistles as needed.


My concern with the QSI wasn't so much the prototypical accuracy but more the general lack of sound quality in all the samples I saw or heard. Lack of good selection was more the issue with MTH, Massoth, MRC, and potentially Zimo.


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

I would recommend going with Zimo power and sound units. The sync proline smoke unit looks as good or better than mth.

In my experience Zimo has the best large scale motor decoder especially for outdoor operation. Slow speed operation is incredible.

Zimo sound catalog is growing and Axel a site sponsor is great to work with.

Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

First off, welcome to the DCC Parish! 

I use Massoth sound decoders and really like the Massoth pulsed smoke maker, but what I wanted to add to the above comments was that any potential decoder(s) you choose to go with should have 1) a SUSI interface for controlling either an add-on sound board or things like the Massoth pulsed smoke unit and 2) have the ability to accept pulsed chuff input from a hall-effect sensor. Zimo, Massoth and Dietz (the inventor of SUSI) all have this ability. That way you won't limit yourself should you choose to just go with a plain (non-sound) decoder to start with. You can always add a good sound unit later such as Phoenix, Massoth S or some other. The Massoth and Zimo can generate pulses for the external sound units too if they don't happen to have a SUSI interface (such as Phoenix). I didn't see anyone mention Dietz decoders so you may want to check out their products as well as I believe they have an extensive sound library. 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Keith, it's really hard to get D.I.E.T.Z. (that's often the way they show it) support and American sound files here in the USA. 

The first system I heard was a Lenz and a Dietz via susi I believe, from Debbie Ames. 

susi is not well represented in the US, although I see many European decoders still have the interface. 

I always wondered why, but basically a combination sound and motor decoder is cheaper that 2 separate ones. I do agree though, a susi interface is perfect for a smoke unit. 

I did not know the Massoth interface was susi, though I suspected it. I don't believe there are any other smoke units that have this interface though. 

But it's a great smoke unit. 

Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

So couple updates and new thoughts to share. As far as smoke units go, I talked to the guy who does most of the maintenance work on our locos and he highly recommends the QSI. He gave me the number of a guy bout an hour away from here that has (I think) an Aristo Pacific with it installed. He's also doing an install on a Mogul for someone else so we're gonna try to work out next time we go by his place to see if we can hear it there. He also has at least two, maybe more, Aristo smoke fan driven smoke units that he's not doing anything with. It was not necessarily a first choice but it's hard to beat free (or nearly so as it may be) and from what I've read above the Zimo and Massoth decoders at least should be able to pulse the smoke out of it. Could the QSI's as well? Final idea is that since I'm not picky about what sound goes in the Shay, I'm thinking I'll go ahead and order the Zimo decoder for it and use it to be able to sample the other sounds essentially "risk free". Since they are the least expensive sound decoders ($120 verus $160 for the QSI) I'd be looking at, and, from what I understand, have as many features and capabilities as the others, they are looking like the first choice assuming I like what I hear from their sounds. I looked at the Dietz and couldn't find a US distributor for it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Which Zimo is $120?? The MX690 is about $190.... maybe you are thinking of an HO Zimo decoder, not a large scale Zimo. 

I've been getting ripped off! 

Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Feb 2011 10:14 PM 
Which Zimo is $120?? The MX690 is about $190.... maybe you are thinking of an HO Zimo decoder, not a large scale Zimo. 

I've been getting ripped off! 

Greg 


is the 642 HO? It says 2A which is more than any of our locos draw (we tested them today doing stall tests, runs up our grade at max speed). the 695 at 5a is way overkill for anything we run.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

looked at everything again and it turns out I will need the 5a decoders...actually 3 would be fine but nobody makes them...!#$%^&*. Zimo would now be slightly more than QSI, question now is does QSI have chuff output that would drive a pulsed smoker? If not, I guess I would need the Massoth smokers and the total price of the system just went up and its advantage Zimo again.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

You can't buy any QSI decoders at the moment--most suppliers seem to be out of stock, because the new improved decoders are coming out, soon supposedly. I believe (not sure about this) they are supposed to be able to drive a pulsed smoker


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, the 642 is HO... whew! 

There are many features that have been "bandied about" on the new QSI, and the information I have, is that lownote is not wrong. (I do some beta testing for QSI and am not at liberty to divulge everything I know, and also, I want the unit in my hand to talk about a feature really being there). 

All that said, wait a bit, I think you will have a new, cost-effective "wonder decoder" soon... 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Greg, talk them into getting some Swiss sounds!!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

.Ya if we wait much longer the new board will be out of date. They are beginning to sound like AC coming, but when? Lets see the 2-8-0 going on 4years so how does QSI do better Later RJD


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 24 Feb 2011 01:49 PM 
Hey Greg, talk them into getting some Swiss sounds!! 
Keith,

The only Swiss sounds i want to hear is..................




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAUH AAAUH AAAAAUH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUH.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

A loaded Shay draws about 3 amps, not a good place for an HO decoder.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By George Schreyer on 24 Feb 2011 06:41 PM 
A loaded Shay draws about 3 amps, not a good place for an HO decoder. 
ours, under stall testing and max speed up the layouts 4-5% grade never went above 1.5. both the Shay and the Annie were very power efficient (Annie never went over 1). The LGB's were far thirstier, with the Forney being the highest of the day at a 1.75 draw.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Are you doing the upgrades yourself, or are you contracting them out, or is your friend a real good friend and cost of installs is a non issue? 

I ask as many decoders double in proce when you add in the installation and option costs (speakers, reeds for DC compatibility, etc. 

For small engines, the Zimo MX64 line is $120 with programmable sound from Axel and you can give the heater element 3 different heat levels. 

Look at the manual and check out CV 137, 138, 139. This works for steam and diesels. 

I have a lower voltage for standing still, 90 per cent running and 100 per cent on acceleration. You can see the changes when running. Also, the Zimo had back emf load control for the chuff. 
Louder under load, softer when running smooth, and much less when coasting to a stop. Very realistic. 

PS, I install these with Axel of train-Li so I am prejudiced here.


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Keith, 

The only Swiss sounds i want to hear is.................. 




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAUH AAAUH AAAAAUH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUH. 


Oh Nick...what are we going to do with you? 
LOL 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a note on your actual readings on the Shay: 

First, you are most likely reading average current, unless you have a peak meter or oscilloscope, 1.5 amps average will definitely have peaks much higher, and transistors, unlike vacuum tubes, do not tolerate even short term overload well. 

Second, you are forgetting the stall current, which was not listed, and I mean stall to where the wheels stop turning. What needs to be understood that, when you first start the loco from a dead stop, the current drawn approximates this current. I will guarantee you it's higher than 1.5 amps. 

George did the pioneering work on this years ago, and it helped explain the destruction of many a decoder where people thought they were safely within the envelope. 

Maybe George can do a better job explaining this, or adding to it, but beware running a 1.5 amp decoder at 1.5 amps. 

Regards, Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 25 Feb 2011 04:54 AM 
Are you doing the upgrades yourself, or are you contracting them out, or is your friend a real good friend and cost of installs is a non issue? 

I ask as many decoders double in proce when you add in the installation and option costs (speakers, reeds for DC compatibility, etc. 

For small engines, the Zimo MX64 line is $120 with programmable sound from Axel and you can give the heater element 3 different heat levels. 

Look at the manual and check out CV 137, 138, 139. This works for steam and diesels. 

I have a lower voltage for standing still, 90 per cent running and 100 per cent on acceleration. You can see the changes when running. Also, the Zimo had back emf load control for the chuff. 
Louder under load, softer when running smooth, and much less when coasting to a stop. Very realistic. 

PS, I install these with Axel of train-Li so I am prejudiced here. 
I am factoring that into the budget, I just haven't brought it up it here as it isn't hugely variable from decoder to decoder. It will depend on the locomotive and which decoder we go with. My friend is a good one who will be doing as much of the work as possible in exchange for free rights to the layout to run the trains, Starbucks on demand, and food. The Moguls will almost certainly have to go to Axel for the smoke unit installation. If we go with Zimo decoders as well, it will probably be worth it just to have him install them while he has the locos apart. We have another guy that we will probably be paying to do the Shay as he a lot of experience with them and is local so no shipping costs. The MX 642 only shows 2a total capacity which is enough to run the Moguls and Annie's motors, but probably not a large speaker or smoke unit (from what I've looked up, the Aristo smoker draws like .7a at full blast). I know both the Zimo and the QSI have the BEMF. Thinking it might be worth it to wait and see what QSI comes out with here in the next month or two and then compare the two.


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## rreiffer (Jan 14, 2009)

All,

Actually I am glad I have been forced into DCC. It has opened up a whole new world for me!


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By rreiffer on 25 Feb 2011 09:58 AM 
All,

Actually I am glad I have been forced into DCC. It has opened up a whole new world for me!


oh I am too. hence the "" around forced in the title. I was speechless when my buddy told me what he had gotten.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Note that EVERY time a loco does a standing start, it draws it's full stall current until the motor have a chance to spool up. This usually occurs at a short duty cycle unless you slam up the throttle, but the peak currents are still there if only for a short time. The Shay's peak current when running on track power is somewhat impacted by it's power pickup and wiring resistance. At the pickups, the stall current for the Shay at 18 volts or so is more than 7 amps. I could actually never physically stall the thing because it had so much torque. However, this implies that the actual motor stall resistance (which I never directly measured) is no greater than 7 ohms per motor. This is typical for Bachmann and Aristo motors. 

Your decoder will NOT see a lot of the parasitic wiring, it'll see two motors (with a little wiring) in parallel. You can calculate the lower bound of stall current at any DCC track voltage. This is the peak current that the decoder must be able to provide and still survive. 

I've toasted HO decoders in ONE motor large scale locos (those with the larger can motors). You can, if you wish, run trials by fire but it's your dime. Fortunately most decoder manufacturers have "no fault" warranties now and if you burn one up, you MIGHT be able to get it replaced if the manufacturer doesn't figure out what you did. 

My preference is to use a beefy decoder and not mess with all this. I did find that the PCC could easily be driven from an HO decoder but that is because it uses small, high stall resistance, motors and high reduction gearing. An average motor current at 18 volts is about 200 to 250 mA, THIS is in the range of an HO decoder.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By George Schreyer on 25 Feb 2011 12:24 PM 
Note that EVERY time a loco does a standing start, it draws it's full stall current until the motor have a chance to spool up. This usually occurs at a short duty cycle unless you slam up the throttle, but the peak currents are still there if only for a short time. The Shay's peak current when running on track power is somewhat impacted by it's power pickup and wiring resistance. At the pickups, the stall current for the Shay at 18 volts or so is more than 7 amps. I could actually never physically stall the thing because it had so much torque. However, this implies that the actual motor stall resistance (which I never directly measured) is no greater than 7 ohms per motor. This is typical for Bachmann and Aristo motors. 

Your decoder will NOT see a lot of the parasitic wiring, it'll see two motors (with a little wiring) in parallel. You can calculate the lower bound of stall current at any DCC track voltage. This is the peak current that the decoder must be able to provide and still survive. 

I've toasted HO decoders in ONE motor large scale locos (those with the larger can motors). You can, if you wish, run trials by fire but it's your dime. Fortunately most decoder manufacturers have "no fault" warranties now and if you burn one up, you MIGHT be able to get it replaced if the manufacturer doesn't figure out what you did. 

My preference is to use a beefy decoder and not mess with all this. I did find that the PCC could easily be driven from an HO decoder but that is because it uses small, high stall resistance, motors and high reduction gearing. An average motor current at 18 volts is about 200 to 250 mA, THIS is in the range of an HO decoder. I appreciate the information but it went way over my head lol. I forwarded what you said on to my buddy so he can make sure we keep it in mind when we pick out the decoder.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

It is in my eyes never good to use any electronic component at its maximum load. I like to have reserve and only reach maximum load at peak time. I recommend the big HO decoder MX642 or its successor 645 for engines like little Diesel switchers (TM 2/2, Schoema, ....) Other LGB driven 1 Boehler motor engines (Stainz and its derivatives, "Kleine Dicke", ..) or Aristo's railbus will all work fine. Ventitilation is required. You can't put the decoder into a corner with no air flow.

I personally think that the shay is an overkill for the HO decdoer and I rather recommend and MX690 or MX695. Smoke with chuff synchronization can be a consideration for most realistc operation. It has truely dramatic effect. But the effect is of course stronger on the inside versus outside and the more wind the less dramatic the effect becomes. I like it a lot, but if comes at a premium (smoke unit + more expensive decoder).

The C-16 and K27 sounds comes from the most reputed sound factory *Sound-Design* in Switzerland and are fantasitic.

But as I always say, don't sheat yourself and try to save money on th espeaker. That's why we went to the extend to import only the best VISATON from Germany. A friend of mine who used to work at Bose was highly impressed with their quality. And boy does it make a difference when we even exchange on mediocre sound systems the .50 cent cheap Chinese pots against a Visaton. The old rule in HIFI was:
"For every dollar spend on an amplifier, spend at least $100 on the speaker system". Therefore a $20 - $30 speaker is the correct investment. (I calculated the cost portion of the amplifier ship). We also make up baffles for the speakers, as well have foam inserts, you need to experiment a bit with that. Also you mid need to dampen the side walls of your Diesel or Electro engines, because some of them start vibrating and impact the quality of the sound.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

could an MTH O scale smoke unit work in our smaller locomotives (like the Forney) where space is an issue? Also, been reading about the new QSI and I see nothing on there re: chuff output for smoke. Does this mean if I went with the QSI I would need a smoker with onboard intelligence (meaning Massoth)?


And Axel, our sound/electronics guy only uses your speakers. Even our Moguls that currently have Sierra units are using your speakers. Am very happy with them.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I installed a MX642 in a Stainz loco with the LGB 18 volt smoke unit. I set CV 60 to 160 to cut the 24 volts down for the 18 volt smoke and lights. 
This decoder is a 3 watt audio unit. Also has a 30 volt DC DCC input rating and 50 volt peak), therefore it is not just for HO!!!!!! 
Peak motor current is 2.5 amps for 20 seconds, 1.2 amps running and includes motor and function limit. 

This decoder would be a great addition to the LGB fliers and hand cars, and you can have programmed sounds. Ask Axel about doing a Santa handcar with jingle bells playing!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have 2 small locos with the 642, very happy. As Dan said, very nice that they made the working voltage nice and high. 

Will be be using the 645 in future installations, I'm also using the MX69x in bigger locos, and have a super tiny on order for my Z scale. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The 645 is almost the same as the 642 except the audio power is 5 watts.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Where do you see 5 watts audio for the Zimo 645? 
The Zimo manual dated 7 March 2011 clearly states 3 watts. maximum.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

3 watts is the MX642, I thought I saw 5 for the 645. Maybe I need my eyes checked??


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

645 is also 3W. The 645 is a successor of the 642 for the predominant reason that a lower voltage "core" chip became available, that's why ZIMO decided the "re-do" the 642 (which was pretty young on the market) and introduce its successor.


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