# OR&L Coach 64 scratch build



## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

[No message]


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## casey wilmunder (Jan 2, 2008)

hi my grandfather used to own coach something like 54 or 24 i would have to look in pics


it looks like a neat car.


sincerly


casey wilmunder


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## trainmaster1989 (Jan 4, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Looks like a great project. I can't wait to see progress pics 

Scott


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Robert,

Auwe! You are one busy guy! The coach sound daunting to me, but you certainly seem to have a handle on the project. I await your next report.

I see that GR reviewed some of you figures. Nice! Now I really feel compelled to get one, especially since I'm getting sucked into the 1:20.3 vortex.

Onward!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Last night I completed 1 side frame and 1 journal cover. The side frame is made of 1/4" ply cut on a scroll saw by cementing a copy of the full scale drawings on to a piece of ply and cutting out accordingly. 
I had to drill the insides first to get the blade through, so since I had it up on the press, I made the holes for that would hold the wheel bushings at the same time. 
Since this is just a prototype to cast in either resin or white metal, I will only have to make 1 complete side frame. 








The load springs are another story. 
I haven't decided yet if I want to cast them with the side frames or to just add them individually after the casting is finished. The are easy enough to make. 
I use 18 guage aluminum wire wrapped around 1/16 " brass rod. I will only need 16 for each car, but I've decided to build 6 copies of 64 all at the same time because, its just as easy to cut 6 as it is to 
cut 1. 
Now I need to but some more detail on the journal c shapped thingy (whats it called) which, as you can see by the real trucks, has a bead all the way around. 
Then I will make the actual star designed cover (probably out of the great plumbers epoxy I just got at ace hardware). 
Then I will put all the nuts bolts and fasteners where they belong. 
By that time I should be able to make up my mind about the springs. 
One thing for sure is that the leaf springs are going to need to be a separate casting.


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## rangerjoel (Jan 4, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Oooh, that's a great idea for load springs. I'll have to try that some time! 
Joel


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## flatracker (Jan 2, 2008)

That is an interesting unique car Ron. Do you know why there is such a large open area in the back? I know the weather is mostly warm where this was built, but also a lot of rain too isn't there? Anyway, it is a nice project and I will look forward to seeing your progress. The railings around the open back area, and also the front, sure will present an interesting challenge!

Good Luck!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Bob, 
Coach 64 is/was Dillinghams private car when first built. It is called an observation car and as far as I know, it wasn't brought out during heavy storms. It rains practically all the time some places in Hawaii. But it is a strange rain. Sometimes it will rain on one side of the street and not on the other. Once I was at the beach laying in the sand with a bunch of my cousins and watching the surf. It rained just on me, not on them. It is a very light rain, though and drys up almost as quickly as it falls.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

The last time I saw Coach 64 it was slowly rotting into the ground at the Bishop Museum in 70/71. Now It has been saved. A very interesting car to model. Go for it Kahuna! 
Noel


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Looking good so far! I like your spring idea, but if you made the side frame in pieces instead on just 1 piece you could use real springs? I've never scratch built anything let alone made side frames from scratch, so I have no idea what I'm asking or talking about. Just wondering if you considered that?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

She has been restored beautifully since 1971 and now sets in Waipahu at the Railroad museum. 
Jim, 
Since I am going to have to make several sets of these, I am considering making one set of molds without casted springs, so they can be added later, and another with the springs. I also have to make two different kinds of journal box covers; one with the star design and one without. Jeff informed me a long time ago that this differentiated the shop built coachs from the Carter Bros coaches, but I'm a little confused by which is which. Coach 1 clearly has no star design on the journal box cover, while 64 does. 64 was built in OR&L shops, while 1 was from Carter Bros.


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

The star on the journal lid was characteristic of Carter Bros cars. In fact, you may be able to get just the lids from Hartford Products, who sell Carter Bros (freight) trucks with those lids. That might save you from making another casting.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Vance, 
That would be great if I could get the lids because I have just determined that I was going to have to fabricate the lids separately since the over handing ears could not be done attached to the journal boxes. 








This is where I am now. I have the side frames primed, need to do a little clean up, then I will build the first mold. From the first mold, I will make 4 copies. 
Each of the copies will have the details refined, so that you can see the torsion rods coming through the nuts on the journal plates and on the top beam. 
I will also do a better job defining the nut details, so that they are squarer. 
The detailing around the journal plate needs to be cleaned up on the copies as well and I think the rivets are a little too big. 
I had to do somethings to this piece that I wasn't real happy with because I am casting them: 
That top beam is about 2 scale inches longer on both sides so that the cross member could clear the flanges. I also made the notches on it a little deeper than the prototype for the same reason. The wheels I have are about 1/16" wider in diameter than the prototypes wheels. 
The journal plate is a solid piece front to back. I would have had to cast it separately to if I had done otherwise. 
I'm not so sure that rod at the bottom is going to come out of the mold alright. Where it crosses over that bottom beam it should be okay , but where it crosses from the journal plate ear tips to the bottom cross beam it is probably not going to come out, at which point I will be faced with removing it from the 4 copies and resign myself to adding that piece during assembly.


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Wow! Up to your usual high standard I see  Since you are going through all this work are you going to make a kit or cars available for sale?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I'm doing six cars, so if they turn out okay, then I will ask Oahu railroad museum if they would like one and sell the other 4 from my site. 
As for the trucks, I had not planned on making any kits, but if they turn out alright and folks want a kit, I could make some arrangements to sell a few,,, last thing I want though is to have to cast a lot of truck kits after I finish mine. I want to move on to making more figures and working on Kauila Ruby bash


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Hi Richard, keep up the lovely work. Six highly detailed models is a lot of work! 
I was interested in the trucks under one of the OR&L's Carter built cabooses, they were a mixture of Carter parts from thier sway motion freight trucks and their passenger trucks. I started asking around and was told that when Carters went out of business, their shop manager went to work for the OR&L, and the OR&L bought a lot of spare parts. So the OR&L continued to make thier own replacement trucks from parts on hand for some while. It's possible that when they ran out of original spares, they started making thier own. Hopefully they did not buy offshore cheap imitation knockoffs!!! 
That is a good idea about the Hartford journal lids, those stars are not easy to make in a small size. I resorted to some I found at Micheals for the trucks on my Carter Duckbills, which I still have to finnish!! The trucks came from Hartland and Fletch acknowledged that they were not a good match, but close. I was not happy with my journal box lids, or the oversize stars, so I had another go on the 8 ton flat car trucks, which are also not yet completed.


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Oh by the way, after looking at my post, the stars should have one point centred downwards!!!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Chris, 
Nice work. Question, did you buy the second pair from Hartford, or did you make them. Jeff Livingston provided me with the photo you see at the top. Its hard to tell, but it looks to me that the stars are not flat, but seem to be beveled. Its as if the sculptor had taken a line from the points on the star and they converged in the center. 
| 
-------- 
/ \ 
and from that line he cut down to the surface at angle. 
Like I said, its hard to make out on the photo, but it appears that way.


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

No the freight truck is home made, and some parts are still missing, some how I just like Carter trucks. This is supposed to be a later version of their 8 ton truck. I made an earlier version, without the cross bars for supporting the brake beams and it was VERY flexible!! 








Now you come to mention the contour of the stars, I have seen a picture somewhere that confirms what you say about the profile. I will see if I can find it. The pic enclosed is not really conclusive, but I believe it is as you said.


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## Eric M. (Jan 3, 2008)

The stars are not flat.  They are, in fact, beveled.  Hartford will sell you the lids you require.  The Hartford Carter Bros.lids are very nice.  I have talked to them in the past with a similar request and they will sell any part from any kit in any quantity you need.  If you can make it to Ardenwood Park in Fremont CA you can have a look at some Carter Bros. trucks in person.  I realize it is a ways off but they always have a railfair on Labor Day weekend and BAGRS will have the live steam and electric portable tracks set up.

http://spcrr.org/ is the group that restores all the old Cater Bros. equipment at Ardenwood.

Here is a link to a picture gallery from one of the past Ardenwood railfairs:

http://wegmuller.org/v-web/gallery/Ardenwood_2005

Regards,

Eric


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Hey Richard, I found the picture in Bruce Macgregors book on the California Narrow Gauge.


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Some how I ended up with a duplicate posting, I deleted the text, but I don't know how to delete the posting, so I put this question there instead???


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Chris, 
Great shot! I guess that answers my question conclusively. I'm going for that look. 
In the meantime, after checkingout all the other images of side frames I realized I could cast the one half of the leave springs on the side fames and the other off.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Amazing, Robert! You are so-ooo out of my league./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Joe, whose Robert?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

#64 is looking fantastic. I'm also planning to scratchbuild it for my Sequoia Valley R.R. I did their coach-observation(the old Pearl) some years ago. It's #10"Mineral King" on my S.V.R.R. 
Anyway, a fellow San Diego GRS member was involved in #64 restoration. The last time he was at the museum, he took photos and did all the measurments for me. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress. 

Tom Rey 
San Diego


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Tom, 
Any chance you could share some of those images and measurements on this page?


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

I'd be glad to share what I have. I don't know how to get you the 35mm phtos Bob Teates took, though. Rob Teates scribbled drawings and measurements on a piece of scrap paper and I'm not sure how to translate all of them in words. However, Ill give you what I can and if you can contact me off line, I can make a copy of his drawings and send it to you. 

Most of this you probably already know, but here goes: overall length over endsills: 36'2", width: 8'2", steps are inset 34.5", doors 33" wide overall. observation platform is 8'7", decking 3/4" by 2 and 7/8", car rides 27.5" off the rails,, turnbuckles are of 1 and 1/8" rod and the turnbuckles measure 2 5/8" by 9 3/4", grab irons on end sills are 6" out by 16" long. The rest you would have to look at to decipher. 

My e-mail is : [email protected] 

Tom


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Tom, 
I responded to your MLS message with my email info. Looking forward to seeing some of your pics.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*


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## wildbill001 (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm in awe....  and have questions.  Hope you don't mind.

How did you do the little ridge around the journal box holder things (what are those called?)?

Also, being new to this:  Do you use a special resin for the casting?  Would something like Alumilite work ?

Do you cast the hole for the wheels or drill that after the fact?  Two part mold or single?

Thanks in advance.

Bill


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

No problem. 
That is 32 gauge copper wire for the ridge. 
I use vagabond 36xxx for casting, alumilite might work. 
I cast the holes for the wheels. 
Yes, it is a two part mold, but you can't use alumilite RTV it is too soft. I use circle kay 1000 RTV its extra hard.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*








" 
It would look a lot closer to the prototype if I could just glue everything, but judging from some of the information shared with me on the railroad operations forum, I will need to make it easy for the wheels 
to be replaced without tearing the trucks apart.


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## timlee49 (Jan 12, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Hi Richard, 

Lovely work! 

Just wondering why you feel the need to model the inside halves of the leaf springs when you could use that area to tie your side frames together, see my post in the rolling stock forum. 

Nobody but you will ever know that the insides of the springs are not there. Trust me! 

Tim


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By timlee49 on 03/14/2008 6:49 AM
Hi Richard, 



Nobody but you will ever know that the insides of the springs are not there. Trust me! 

Tim


Tim,
 That is exactly why I am including the springs


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*








" 
I am not sure how this will turn out when casted because of the brake hangers that are made of brass wire. 
As you can see from the closeup, they are pretty thin. At the very least, they are going to need some serious cleanup, 
but compared to fabricating all those hangers from wire, thats a fair trade off.


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## timlee49 (Jan 12, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Dang Richard! 

You work so fast! 

That is some really nice work. 

About the brake hangers, a narrowed flat plate with hinge tubes top and bottom would also be prototypical, or at least plausible ( but, hey, I'm thinking pragmatism against a slavish following of prototype reduced 20 times. Are you building competion quality models or toys to use every day?) 

I build my trucks by hand as I tried casting but the half a lung that I have left doesn't like the fumes from the mould materials or the casting mediums that are available here. 

Thanks 
Tim


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Tim, 
Thanks, It seems like each step takes an eternity, because I lack patience. 
I'm not sure what standards have been established for competition level modeling. 
I just like building models more than I like running them. I like researching them, studying the prototype, coordinating the project, and executing. 
I know some of my models are not going to hold up to continued use, but they don't have to with me. 
When I was doing H.O. I built a layout with a tons of hand laid track and built a whole operational switching yard from scratch, including the switching stands. 
I only ran models on it, when I was testing my switch and track work and for the most part, it was an ongoing modeling and collecting hobby for me. 
My son ran the trains, while I was content to just purchase the brass models and research railroad operations. 
Thats whats so cool about this hobby, it has something for everyone and my thing is building models and acquireing really nice looking models


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By timlee49 on 03/15/2008 7:51 AM

I build my trucks by hand as I tried casting but the half a lung that I have left doesn't like the fumes from the mould materials or the casting mediums that are available here. 

Thanks 
Tim 

Thanks for bringing this up Tim, I always seem to neglect discussions of safety and health not because they aren't important, but because I am a little forgetful and scattered.
The fumes can be overwhelming unless you have proper ventilation and good respritory protection. I also make sure to store my mask in a zip lock bag, and change the filters often. I can't stress this enough, THE MOST IMPORTANT TOOL IN ANY SHOP IS HEALTH AND SAFETY.


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Very nice attn to detail, well done mate....


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

It appears that all the Oahu Railway passenger cars built by the company(inc, #64) had about 3 and 1/2" spacing between the windows. How do you do that and still maintain structural integrity? 

Tom Rey


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Tom, 
If you are speaking about the prototypes structural integrity, I'm not an engineer, but I was a carpenter and will venture a guess. When ever you frame for a door or a window in a house, you comprise the shear strenght of the structure. In order to get back some of that shear strength you use diagnal bracing (Either with wood or strapping). You also comprimise vertical support. To make sure the upper part of the structure doesn't sag or collapse, you span the void with a header. I always used one of two techniques 2x4s ripped to 2 3/4" wide and laminated with a 3/8s ply on either side, or just a 4x12 piece of lumber. 
I can't confirmed that OR&L did anything to preserve the shear string, but I have observed that the Name board above the windows is at least a foot in width which is more than enough support for those light roofs. 
I imagine that the ends were diaganolly braced and so were the joist at the bottoms of the windows. 
Also, increasing the width of the spacing between each window will add to the vertical support, but will still leave the shear properties unresolved. Again, those roofs were very light, almost a canopy, so I think the main concern would have been shear, and if it were my design I would have used truss rods and diaganal bracing.


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

Thanks for the info. I really didn't make myself clear though. I really meant from a modelling standpoint. That spacing is around 3/16" bet. the windows. I've scratchbuilt cars before, but the spacing was a lot wider. I'm just worried about a 3/16" or so space even with the scale 12" header board. I suppose I could reinforce each spacing. What did you do with that coach you built? 

Tom


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Tom, 
Shear and vertical strength are even less an issue on the model, than they are on the real thing thanks to the physics involved. 
If you look up my first coach build, those windows are 3" spacing, and I actually have nothing more than a 1/8" bass wood mullion in between each window. That mullion is a simple butt joint on top of the sill, it doesn't even go through the entire height of the body, but rest on the lower portion, and butts up to the name board. 
Now, that being said, I don't expect my model to endure the probing hands of a child, and I don't plan on smashing it in to anything. 
With normal usage, I have seen no issues with the window mullions, no breaks, or warps. 
Again, with these coaches the weight of the roof is less an issue than the shear forces on the body. The prototype has the weight of the materials on the walls, the wind, the weight of the roof 
and the kenetic energy applied to those factors as the coach reaches speeds of up to 60 MPH with winds sometime as great. The models, usually made of ply, have all those factors weight, dimension, and speed all reduced significantly so kenetic forces are less of a concern than children and clumsy pets. 
I can pick my first coach up by hand and carry it with no damage to the windows are the mullions or any of the structure. 
As a matter of fact, I have to remove the whole body if I want to access the enterior to place figures inside. To get the body off, I grabe the roof in the center and pull up on it. 
So when constructing your coaches with similiar dimensions for the mullions, I would take into consideration usage. 
-Are you going to be kicking it with your foot? 
-Are you going to allow small children to play with them? 
-Do you derail your cars frequently at hights exceeding 6 inches? 
If yes to any of the above questions, I would recommend using styrene or high impact plastic, but I wouldn't worry to much about the spacing between the windows.


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Thanks Richard. I'm not planning on doing any of those nasty things. I made "Pearl" the same way you made your coach. I just wondered if you had a better way. I decided I needed another combine, so I'm building #38, It had a longer than usual baggage compartment. That should be unique enough. Thanks again. 

Tom


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Wow! At long last, the shelfs are done, the sheds are cleaned out and the shop is clean enough to work in. This weekend, I made the final mold for the side frames. I decided to save on mold material and use the shell technique. I used quick patch for the shell, because (I thought) it sets fast. To my surprise, when I made the second half of the mold, the shell started weeping tons of water. The second half turn out to be usable, and I thought, well, now that thats done, I can go ahead. I casted my first piece today, and when I took the mold out of the compression tank, low and behold, it was trenched in foamy water. 
The piece still turned out ok, but I had to take a towel and soak up all the water. So, Now,,, I've got the shell in the oven at 120 degrees F hoping that I can bake away all the water. What a mind blower /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Got two side frames done when the shell of my mold cracked. 
I realize now what was wrong. The quick patch is too porous and the compressed air is being forced into the pores, condensing and then coming out as foam. 
I'm going to have to use resin for the shell, but decided to take a break, assemble the two side frames I have and paint them. 
I don't have the bolsters or the brakes and brake beams, and the sierra valley wheels haven't arrived yet, but these will be fine for my null coach. 
I repair the shell tomorrow and cast the remaining 16 side frames, then put up the mold for the brake beams and bolsters. 

To add to my bad luck today, the grimmy black poly scale I purchased last week seems to be from a bad batch, it is thin, and has a sheen to it when it dries, and looks nothing like the grimmy black I've come to appreciate /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## DrVibes (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Very nice Richard, I was wondering how your project was going. Those journal lids are right on. Are they yours or Hartfords? Please continue with the postings, I am really enjoying your work and seeing this project coming together so nicely.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Thanks Chris, those journal covers are my own as is the whole sideframe. I'm waiting on some mold release agent, so I can't do the other two molds for the brake beams and bolsters. I'll post again once I have those molds made.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Now that the trucks are all cast and ready for assembly and paint, I thought I would share some photos of the restored coach 64 which can be seen at the Honolulu Railway Museum in Waipahu. 
This photos were sent to me by Tom Rey and will come in handy in determining the size and shape of parts of the coach that aren't included on 2 elevations of the plans I have. 








Details like the throw bar as seen in the image of the observation deck and the closeup of the front deck above. I can see these on the plans but there are no exploded views or perspective views to determine what they really look like or how they are mounted. 








This close up of the gate handle leaves nothing to the imagination. I should be able to make a good copy of it. 








The shot of the inside is helpful in determining some of the detail, but I'm going to rely more on photos from Next Stop Honolulu and Sugar Trains Pictorial since they show how the inside of the coach looked in and around 1906 (the time I'm approximating)


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, how are you going to make the ornate ironwork for the platform fence? It looks like a job for photoetching, unless you want to try to bend metal strips for all that. 

It's a beautiful car - I am always interested to see your fine model of it!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Vance, 
I'm still bouncing around ideas for that. I'd have to rule out photo etching since it can only give me detail in on one plane. I'm leaning towards fabricating a single prototype for the center detail and (That fluer de lee design) and the the little filigrees at the top of the posts. From the prototypes I will make castings. I wish I could cast them in brass, so they can be soldered to the grating. 
While I was mulling that over in my head, I finished casting the side frames today and cleaned them up and started attaching the springs and that bottom rod. I also drilled out the top beam where they will attach to the bolsters. 








I just got my Sierra Valley Wheels from Ozark Miniatures, I put them in the image above so you can see the difference between those and the bachmanns. I'm very impressed with the look and how well balance and aligned they are. You can detect a slight wobble on the Bachmanns, but none on the Sierra Valley, and that smaller flange really makes them look prototypical.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









After much head scratching this morning, I decided to make some shop sketches to help me with milling up the lumber for the windows. 
The image above shows details for the mullions and the sills. Both are going to be fabricated from a single pieces of wood, starting out with 
7/32 x 1/4 inch stock for the mullions, and 1/8 x 21/64 inch stock for the sill. 
This time I am resolved to doing the windows as a single unit that will be installed into rough openings on the coach. The reason for this, is I want the windows (at least the bottom window) to slide open and close. 
The cut notes for the mullions is just some notation so I don't go off and forget what direction to make the cuts in. Stupid, I know, but it happens to me sometimes. 
The 1/32x1/16 dado is for the bottom sash to glide in. There is a 1/64x1/64 lip in the front for the top piece of sash which will be fixed in place. 
The mullions will mortise into the sill and the header, both on a straight plane. 
I'm half way thinking I should modify one of my old straight flush trim router bits so I can cut the profile for the mullions in one pass, but all I have is carbide tip bits. 
I've cut special cutter blades for shapers before, but I have never modified and existing router bit. 
Anyone have any tips on doing this safely? Or if it is at all possible to do it safely with carbide edged bits?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Finished the first 2 of 6 sides today for 3 coach 64s. I decided to take a break to share this with everyone because it is a deviation from my prior building process. 
For the null coach, I followed the simple joinery technique described by the plans that came with the kit I modified. I assembled the body walls 
first, and rounded off the corners with a scraper and some sand paper. 








This time I used a 1/4" quarter round bit in my trim router, and cut little tendons for the outside walls to fit on as seen in the image above. 
I also applied the paneling ahead of the time. In the next step I will install the inner paneling and follow the same process for the ends. 
As you can see I have a rough opening for the windows. I have milled up the stock for the mullions, sill and headers, and will assemble them after 
I finish the walls.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Richard, 

I'm getting tired just looking at images of all of the work you've been doing. superb job, as always.


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## Reylroad (Mar 9, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

Just got back from the GR convention in Phoenix. No. 64 is looking fantastic. That looks like a great way to do the quarter rounds. I'll have to do it that way next time. That ought to be fun(right!). I'll probably cut my finger off. 

Anyway, I can't wait to see your next installment. Great work!! 

Tom


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## docwatsonva (Jan 2, 2008)

Richard, 

I like your 1/4 rounds. Your design should provide a lot of strength to your coach corners. The ones I made were just glued to the ends. The only strength on the coners comes from the sides and ends being glued to the car bottom. Keep it coming. 

Doc


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Thanks Doc, 
I liked the way you joined your corners, but I didn't want to do finger joints (which would have been a lot more strong) and this was the next best idea. 








I finished designing, and cutting the window assemblies and assembled one to test fit it (above image) 








The sill is made of white cedar while the mullions are rock maple. I choice maple for the mullions because I want the bottom sashes to move and it is strong and has tight 
grain. 
I chose white cedar for the sill, because I need to bevel it with a hand plane and white cedar is perfect for hand tooling and plenty strong. 








Its a very tight fit, as you can see from this close up. When I used to do finish work professionally I shot for tolerances of no greater than 1/32 of an inch. For cabinets 1/64. 
If you scale those to 1:20.3 your looking at .00153 and .000768. so the window assembly is a piston fit in the rough opening. 
That can be very hazardous to pieces with thin stock, especially since I can't put the header on the window assembly because I need to leave the top accessible so the bottom 
sash can be slid in. 
This is sort of an engineering sacrifice because I am going to use the letter board and the internal top paneling as pseudo headers leaving a nice slot for the bottom sashes. 
The top sash is fixed and should provide additional shear strength. 
I know what you are probably thinking (cause I thought the same thing) why not slide the sash in and then install the top header; that would be good, but I am planing on making the roof 
removable, so I can have access to the interior for taking photos and putting people and furniture in later. 
I'm going to need all the space between the letter board and interior top paneling for a nice thick top plate for the ceiling joices to mortise into.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Great detail work!! What kind of shaper do you use for such small parts? I have never tried to reshape carbide cutters but I would imagine that it would be quite difficult and would require the use of a diamond grinding wheel. A resharpening shop might be able to do it for you. You might be able to get some one to cast that gate in brass if you supplied the pattern. That will be a sweet detail.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Winn, 
No shaper just a 10" contractors saw with a thin kerf blade and a combination of razor knifes, files, and hand planes. 
I'm still debating whether or not I want to learn how to cast white metal and cast them myself. From what I understand 
it is low temperature and the silicon I use is rated for white metal casting.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









I started on the sash early this morning. I made some mock ups from Styrene, and then assembled one bottom sash from some 5/64" koa a ripped up. 
Koa, is very brittle, and the rabits I tried to machine in broke off. 
To add to my frustration, when I test fitted the piece, the butt joints failed. 
I scratched my behind for a little bit and came up with the solution you see above. I took my styrene mock ups and some super glued some koa veneer to them. 
Using a razor knife, I cut out the edges and then cut around the inside of the sash at an angle to form my rabit. 
Wa la, vynol clad sash! 
I don't think that was available in the 1930s so the purest in me is screaming "abomination!", 
But the pragmatist is saying, "This works"  









The inside view isn't pretty though. since this is a test window, I will just scap it and on the finished ones, I will run the koa veneers along the stiles and rails so that they are 
going in the right direction and look right. 
One thing is for sure, they are sturdy, and the glide smoothly up and down with just a snug enough fit to hold them in place when they are open. 
The two images above are just pressure fitted in place.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Hey Big Kahuna! 
Nice work. Very nice indeed. Once painted who will know its vinyl unless you tell them. 
Keep it coming brudder, I enjoy your work. 
Noel


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I finished laying up all the bottom sashes today and decided to check the photos I got from Tom to see how the windows were glazed, before I get much further or commit to something that isn't prototypical. 








This is the best image I have of the sash, and as you can see it looks like they used glazing putty. I would have thought that a bad idea. Glazing putty, no matter how well prep'd the sash is, tends to dry out after a while and get brittle. I would also thinking that all that moving around the glass would tend to work itself out, but I guess not. 
I decided to reproduce this affect on my model. Its not a good idea to use real glazing putty though. Its too stiff and you need to paint the inside of the sash and then spread some thinned out linseed oil 
in the rabbitts to make it stick. 
I chose grey plasticine instead. It has a similar texture, is paintable and unlike glazing putty, it don't dry out ever. 








Here is a shot of the windows before and after painting. To prep it, I sealed the koa first with some clear flat acrylic. The glass is just acetate. It takes about 1/4 of the time to glaze this window as it would to glaze the full scale window. Once glazed it cleans up with a little rubbing alcohol and a cotton swab.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Took my a while, but I finally finished glazing, painting, sealing and fitting the 28 pieces of sash for the bottom part of coach 64! Only 14 more left for the clerestory! 








I decided to move on to the ends instead of the interior paneling right now, as I'm getting a little burnt out on the small fussy stuff. So, I decided to test fit sides as seen in the 
image above to a cut out of the ends so as to make sure the dimensions are still on course within the previously mentioned tolerances. 
The outside of the side walls are practically finished, the window casings are glued in as is the bottom portion of the letter board. Just need to apply the trim and then primer it, then move 
on to the the end pieces.


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## llynrice (Jan 2, 2008)

Those windows are absolutely amazing! Great job. I look forward to seeing your next feats in fine detailing. 

Llyn


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Started on the ends but met a stumbling block when I realized I needed to mill up the header for the roof top first. So, 
I decided to do the trim instead of getting involved with that much effort. 
As you can see from the image, I used koa. I did this for 2 reasons, first and most important I milled up way more koa at 1/32 thickness than I will need for the floors so I figured, why not use them and second, I wanted to use a darker wood for the trim so that I can line it up a little easier. 
When I built coach Null I used bass wood and had a hard time seeing its edge against the bass wood siding. Because of that, I had to wait till I had already painted the body before I installed the trim. This time the trim and the sides will be primed at the same time. 
Question for anyone who knows. I'm thinking of a different approach for the lettering. I have some photo active film that can be painted on to a surface with a brush. Has anyone ever painted this stuff on to a painted surface? 
If so, does it come off easy, or do you need to bleach and sand it off? 
Thanks in advance.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









I got this great shot of the lamp brackets from Jeff a few months ago. This week has been a real pain for me. 
My original roof design did not work, and I had to go back to the drawing board, so before I revisited something that went wrong, 
I took an intermission and made up some negatives so I could etch the lamp brackets. 








They turned out pretty good, but its hard to see the screws. I can live with that though. 
I mortised the brackets on to two front corners (same as the prototype) and moved back to the roof. 
This time, I think I got it right. 








I used some walnut a friend and I milled up from an old walnut tree about 20 years ago. I thought air drying for 20 years 
would make it extremely stable, and for the most part it is, but after sitting in the shop over night 4 out of the six 
walnut sills warped and tweaked. luckily 2 of them were usable.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

Richard, 

Sorry about that walnut. Maybe ya shoulda used kiawe! 

Meanwhile, here's some words of advice for your coach's passengers...


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

JOe! Funny, my hawaiian's pretty rusty, but it looks like they have a misspelled word. I think it should be 'loa'a' not 'lo`a'. I could be wrong. Any way literal translation is "Don't close the buckle, get the ticket". I'll have to consult my Hawaiian dictionary about lo`a. could be one of the those weird circumstances when it can be spelled lo`a. I know sometimes the glutal stop is dropped when it appears in a song.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Say! wait a minute that place looks familiar. Is that up around Puka Lani?


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I bet actual spelling of a Hawaian spoken word in an English alphabet is "iffy" at best.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Richard, 

The photo was taken on the mauka shoulder of the Honoapiilani Hwy (Rote 30) headed north (direction Napili) right at the entrance to the post office and the Lahaina Civic Center. It's in that stretch of land between the border of Lahaina Town and Ka'anapali. I took the photo through the windshield of our island car because I forgot to take it when the car was parked at the post office and was afraid that if I shut it off, after I left, the engine woudn't go and I'd be stranded on the shoulder. Hate to take a less than perfect photo but under the circumstances...


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Semper, actually, Hawaiian is a lot more concise than english is. There are 13 letters, there are glutal stops and elongated vowels. 'e i' always souind the same, there are no silent letters. A consenant must be separated by a vowel. The only tough part are the dipthong which require a knowledge of the sound of the language more than the gramatics. 
Joe, 
Thats a pretty good shot for taking it outside the window of a moving vehicle.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









This projects moving like molasseses in January, in Juno Alaska. I finally got the one end laid up. I used the koa, since I'm not using it for the inside paneling. 
The only thing holding me back on the ends now is some of the hard ware. 








See where that red arrow is pointing? Whats thing called? Anyway, I need a bunch of those. Does anyone know a supplier, or am I going to have to fabricated them myself from scratch? 
I scoured all the parts on the sites I know of and haven't found anything closely resembling them. 








You can see the top of one on this image.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I would be willing to bet that's a poling pocket casting. It's on the corner of the carbody as opposed to the end of the platform because the platform doesn't have the strength to withstand the pushing. They're not on every car; some have them, some don't. It might have been builders' preference, or perhaps the railroad added them. 










I don't think anyone makes commercial castings for them, so you're on your own. I made mine from a square of epoxy putty filed to shape. 

Later, 

K


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Yes, that is a "Poleing pocket". They are illegal on American RRs now since it was a very dangerous practice to push one car with an engine on a parallel track using just a pole diagonally between them. The poles could either shatter (the wood ones) or flip out of the pockets and hit the employee standing there holding it in place as the engine approached.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Are we talking about the same thing here? Its not on the corner, it is on the end just below the windows, and has something like a carriage bolt on it. There is one on K's picture, but its just above the steps aboiut 5 blanks in from the corner.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

OH someone on another forum responded to the question. Its called an outer truss rod bolt.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

I suddenly thought I remembered where I saw this piece, so I went to the article on Carter build coaches. There truss rod is different too, but I found this. 








Except for the lettering and the journal plate, this are a dead match for the trucks I was trying to make.


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## joe rusz (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

You're way outta my league! Your handiwork is "Da kine.!"


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Shucks  Thanks Joe, bet if you seen all the mistakes I made before I got to the stages I photo`d, you wouldn't think that


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Hey Richard, 
I don't know if you got your answer yet or not, but Ozark carries two different castings of outer truss rods: one with a square washer ( I believe they call it the DRGW style) and round washers. 

Take care, and happy Father's Day if it applies!


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

Thanks Matt, it applies and happy f-day to you too. Yep neigther of those truss rods work so I made my own. I'll put up some images tomorrow, just got back from a nieces grad ceremony today and don't feel much like taking photos.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Not a good shot, but it shows the truss rod plate I made. 








I pre-painted and lettered the sides, and glued them up to the ends. I decided to add the interior after I complete the substructure and the roof, so I have a better understanding of the dimensions of the interior. I found that I could not trust the drawings I have to be accurate after discovering a 1/32" descripency on the ends. 








I used blue tape to hold the ends to the sides while the glue set. Unfortunately when I removed the tape, I also removed some of the paint and wood on the corners of the reat as you can see in the above images. 
I'll have a little clean up to do. I also want to note that I deveated a little on the rear. I decided that the current rear doens't look like the same paneling technique they would have used at the turn of the century. Its more of a 50s sort of thing, so I paneled the rear the way I thought I would if I were paneling something at in 1906. I'm probably wrong, but what the heck


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Finally completed the substructure. Only took 2 days. Most of the time was in laying it out. Coach 64 is slightly different from the other OR&L coaches because of the observation deck and because it is only 36 feet long. 
I didn't have any plans what so ever, so what I did was to rely partially on the layout given in the Master Class article about building a Carter Brothers Coach, and partly from what I can see if the under carriage on some photos Jeff sent of coach 2 s trucks. From those two items, I was able to come up with something, that while not being strictly prototypical, is probably pretty close or it least convincing and at least functional. 
Some of the difference between the M.C. article plans can be seen in the thickness of the lumber I used, and the center 2 stringers which are 3/4" apart (same as the plans) but go straight through to the other end of the substructure (which is the way they appear to do on the coach 2 images). 
I used walnut because of its stability and strength. To join the pieces I used tight bond wood glue and regular lap joints. I reversed the joing on the middle stringers to which is what I think the coach builders might have done. 
That notch in the upper left hand corner of the image is for the steps on the observation deck. You are looking at the top of the substructure from the front of the car. The front platform is not present, because from what I can tell from the images I have, it cantilevers off the substructure, underneath the end wall. I will add the cantilevers, the front deck, and the bolsters and then finally the subfloor, an overlay of black construction paper and then the koa flooring on top of that.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*









Got this image from Jeff yesterday. It appears that coach 64 had an additional layer of sound proofing installed on the under carriage. Jeff tells me that currently it runs in between the bolsters, but there is evidence of nail holes on the exposed substructure that would indicate it had once run from one end of the coach to the other. 
I almost immediately made plans to plane my substructure down 1/32" and attached the flooring same as the prototypes but as I was sitting up the piece to be planed I had second thoughts. 
I really like the work I did on the substructure. The thought that went into its construction and the cleanness of the joinery. It would be a shame to hide it under planking, which no one will ever really see excepting those that read this thread and me. 
So I decided to leave it bare for this model. If someone every commissions another one (I decided against building 3) then I will do the planking to keep in step with the prototype.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I took a very long break from this project, to focus on some other projects that I had backed up on my bench. I broke down last week and finally cut a dadoo in the substructure so that the back wall between the observation deck and the interior could fit in the dadoo and effectively let the outside walls of the coach overhang the framing 1/32" similiar to what the prototype does. I'm still going to leave the framing exposed but what the heck. 
I'm also going to have to finish some of my other more pressing projects before I start back again on this one. Hopefully I'll be able to focus on it by mid Oct.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: OR&L Coach 64 scratch build*

I look forward to your return to this project


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow!!! someone sent me this link enquiring about the trucks. I didn't realize I started this 4 years ago!!!! Man am I slow!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Slow? I've still got three passenger car projects sitting unfinished in the workshop, including my #20 project that I started in 2006! Two "just" need interiors, but the other needs a lot more work. I think if it were easier to transport them to shows (they're all over 2' long), I'd be more inclined to work on them. A nice 4-car passenger train would look great behind my #12. 

Later, 

K


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Slow? II. Rich, remember the photo of the full-sized headlight of mine that you posted awhile back? When I found that 40 years ago it was to be refurbished and mounted on our porch next to the front door. Well, your photo shows its present (unrestored) state. 

Larry


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Been a while since I worked on this. Mostly because I don't have much time and partly because the box it was in went missing for 2 years after I moved. Anyway, I decided a couple of weeks ago that I was going to remake the journals because I did not like how the handmade ones turned out. So I got out my scraggly collection of 3D tools and built this model. 








I sent it off to the printers today. The cool thing is that if I decided to cast it in brass someday when I get rich I can just change the size to compensate for the shrinkage and cast in any scale I want


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## dangell (Jul 15, 2012)

This is so cool! I need to bring my cars up a notch or three! 

dale


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Any idea what the cost will be for producing these journals in 1/20.3 scale? How about 1/6th scale? 
Can you produce a scale drawing of these in 1/6th scale for me? If so, how much would it cost me?


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, with the cost of the print and silicone for the molds,,,, not including the resin castings,,, just the journals will be about $30 dollars for one mold. 
But I intend to use the castings to build up the side frames of the trucks (minus the bracing), and I already have the molds for the bolsters and breaks so I'm good there. 
I'm not sure what it would cost for 1/6". The journal height is about 18" for the prototype. 
As far as plans, its a 3D file, so that pretty much is a plan. I think it can be imported into Auto CAD or solid works and converted in to a set of plans, but you would be missing the rest of the truck, so I'm not sure how good they would be. Plus, they are superficial. I don't have access to a real truck to take measurements from and take apart to see how everything goes together, so the accuracy is just best guess in some cases. I do believe that I have capture the essense, although I'll admit the engineering behind the visible portions of the trucks are a mystery to me. 
OH and most importantly - The thickness of this journal is greater than the prototype thickness (as far as I could measure from the photos) because it won't cast at the prototype thickness without some serious venting issues. So, if you did convert to 1:6 it would be more than just a simple scaling matter.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

If it's the old Carter Brothers passenger trucks, they probably had a wood frame with cast iron hardware. The wood frames aren't that hard to build in the larger scales, there's just a fair amount of parts to cut for them. In 1/20 scale, the wood parts should be manageable. I don't have plans for that truck, but I do have the plans for a 5 foot wheelbase standard gauge passenger type truck that was used under the Chicago & North Western Drover's cabooses. They look like the same type of construction as the D&RG passenger trucks except for the gauge and minor details. The wood cutting dimensions should be close enough to make a good truck from. It's the castings that are hard to come up with. I've yet to see the measured dimensions for the journal castings, so I don't know how big they are. I'm guessing that they're smaller than the ones for the standard gauge caboose trucks.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Amber, 
Here is the first set I made. Most of the hardware is fabricated using brass. The prototype for the castings was made of a combination of wood, styrene brass and steel putty what ever got me there. 








Here is a link to hi res image of these trucks. 
LINK TO HS IMAGE 
note how awkward the journals look. Even though I did them about 4 years ago my eye sight was not good enough to do that small of detail.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh,, what I was going to point out is that unlike the ones I've seen on D&RG equipment thse have 4 load springs on each side of the truck,,, that is 2 load springs on one end with the leaf springs in the center and two load springs on the other end. Most just have 2 one on each end with the leaf springs in the middle. 
This is OR&L equipment which was purchased from Carter Bros in S.F. and which was also later built by one of Carter Bros master coach builders who was hired by the OR&L to work in their shops on the islands.


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

That's a nice pair of trucks! Nice detail work. 
The southern Pacific narrow gauge had at least a couple of passenger cars with those trucks under them. They aquired used equipment from other western slope railroads, and some of them were built by Carter Brothers.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I used to model SP in HO,,, still have most of my HO stuff,,, just the brass though.


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