# Detrail Problems



## BenTrain (Jul 9, 2011)

We just finished our outdoor G-scale setup and were excited to run the train, but it keeps jumping the track. Some cars don't seem to stay on at all and the engine keeps jumping in 1 or 2 specific places. Any advice on how to resolve this? The track is fairly level, but how exact does it have to be? The engine seems to jump when going around a curve in the middle of the curve track. Other cars just come off anywhere.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

99% of the time it is the track. 

It would help to know the brand of track you are using, and is it sectional or flex track? What type of rail joiners? 

Typically the problems are kinks in the curves, dips or humps in the track, or "cross level" problems (where one rail is higher than the other). Associated with cross level problems is "twist" or "warp" where sighting down the track lets you see the rails twist in a corkscrew fashion. 

The first thing to do is look at the track joints, and see if there are gaps, and look at the track, does it curve smoothly, are there kinks? 

Next, lie down next to the track, i.e. try to put the track at eye level, and sight along the rails, that will point out problems quickly. 

There are other possible issues, but it really sounds like you need to start with the track. 

Oh, also indicate the diameter of the curves and also the locomotive manufacturer and type (although since you have cars and loco troubles, it's again almost for sure track) 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Does it do this at any speed?

Is this brand new track or is it used?

What about the spacing of your wheels ( Gage) 

The rail if, used, could be bent in or out in a perpendicular manor 

I use a torpedo level and make my track level side to side.

Level side to side can be a issue.

Run the trains as slow as possible in the area where the derailmetns happen on a regular basis.

You might see what it is doing to cause the derailments.

JJ


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Start with the obvious, stuff on the track, lumpy bumpy track?
Maybe one side of the track is lower then the other..that is a big one for me on my free floating track.

Biggest next.... is to check the gauge of the wheelsets, and the track. Make sure BOTH are in gauge. Use a KayDee gauge to check this...even the drivers on the engine.

If that is all ok then next if you are using a bachmann 10 wheeler, it doesn't like tight curves, OR short switches.

IMHO

Bubba


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

If you check your track for cross level and your wheels are in gauge you should be good to go..
Remember only the Shadow G Gaugers know...............









Adam


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

It would help to know what engines you are trying to run and the diameter of the track you are using...if they are compatable?

Some engines do not like tight curves, some are more forgiving.

CHECK GAUGE OF WHEELSETS. AND THE TRACK, in those spots that the engine derails at. 

Bubba


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## Adam Anderson (Apr 21, 2011)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA







What............

Member of the Shadow G Force......


Adam


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found with bending more and more track it sometimes tend to get out of gauge or closer to each other the last 3" of the section. I cut a thin spacer to spread it back to gauge.


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## BenTrain (Jul 9, 2011)

Some more info:
1. It is new track, although some of it has been outside for a month or two.
2. The curves are 4' diameter. The train ran fine on it when it was indoors (the engine and all the cars were fine).
3. It is Pico brand, brass track, with the joiners that slide together. It is not flex track. We have various section lengths, from 1ft to 4ft.
4. To lay the track, we dug a trench and filled it with the type of gravel that compacts. Leveled it, put the track down and then put chicken grit on top.
5. I used a torpedo level to check the cross track and it was all pretty level. Maybe 1/16th off in spots.


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you taken a paint brush and made sure to pull all the chicken grit away from the rail? Make sure that you can see the molded in tie plates on the ties and you will know you have it cleaned out well enough.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Ben:

It is important to now look at everything. 1/16th of an inch left to right "out-of level" should not make too much of a problem, unless it is constantly shifting from left to right, meaning that the track is for a couple of feet left rail higher and then a couple of feet later right rail higher. In the transition of the wobble you are now looking at 1/8th of inch (almost 4 mm) (or in scale 3.6250" - 12cm). Actually thinking of this that way this is quite a bit.
CALLING on RJ!!!!
What does the prototype tolerate?

Secondly, you need to measure the inside rail to inside rail gauge all away around, in particular in the sections you have identified where the engines and cars are derailing.

Third, measure the inside wheel to inside wheel gauge of cars and engine.

Forth, check if your track is bulging (ballast pushing the center up - this would indicate too weak ties)

Fifth - although mentioned: BETWEEN THE RAILS (especially close to the rail heads) no ballast - I always brush it out.

You can have a combination of problems that didn't show indoor laying track indoors creates a 100% perfect condition, that even marginally gauged track or marginally compliant rolling stock will now stop behaving in the outdoor environment.

I also suggest (since you are building a permanent layout) to remove all rail joiners and replace them with rail clamps. This makes it easier to have a consistent "behavior" of the track and avoids kinks (vertical and horizontal) at each transition points. The more I think abut it the more I believe he joiners are compounding your problem.

Gauge measurement guide lines:

inside track to inside track: 45mm +.25/-.15 (1.772 + .010/- .006)
wheels back-to-back: 41.38mm +.38/-.36 (1.633 +.015/-.014)


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## Phippsburg Eric (Jan 10, 2008)

Also look to make sure that the sections of track mate together smoothly, there should not be any kinks or "unfair" curves. 

Sometimes my track can have a kink when the rails are all the way pushed into the rail joiners if a rail has moved within a section of track...that makes it so that when the track sections are put together "properly" there is a different curve at the joint. How ever these "kinks" at the joints happen, the track should be adjusted so that the curve at the joint is the same as in the track. 

With your realatively short radius curves a little kink may be enough to mess up your train, expecially if it coinsides with a dip on the outer rail. 


Run one of the offending cars over the problem place by hand and see if you can tell where and how it derails. try moving the track around a little to see if you can fix the problem. I often am able to just raise or lower a bit of track and fix porblems on my track. push a little of your ballast under track you raise, push the track into the ballast to lower it. 

--Eric


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I forgot to mention that in my haste...I sometimes place the rail joniner on BACKWARDS! 


Hope we hear a little about you problem solving, and how it is going.

Bubba


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Babba:

Do you mean rail joiners or rail clamps?


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Sorry, the rail joiners not the clamps. Correct me if I am wrong but the clamps do not have a correct side, as they can be mounted either side. Screw heads on inside hides then better...if that is what you are looking for.

The Aristo joiners have a high side and the lower side....The AML flex track joiners do not have that issue as they are the same on both sides.

Sorry for the confusion.

Bubba


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

But as far as I know, even then it should not matter, because none go into the railhead.

Yes you are correct technically joiners have 0 dependancies as well.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Aristocraft rail joiners are not symmetrical, one side is set to accept the set screw and the other side is not. This is different from the LGB joiners where each side comes up to the same height. I don't know if the Aristocraft joiners are put on with the high side on the inside it would derail trains, but my comment is to point out that the two sides are different.


Chuck


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

I have had issues with the Aristo joiners if you place the high side on the inside wheel side it will cause the wheels to jump and sometimes off the track.

Bubba


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## mgilger (Feb 22, 2008)

For sure you want the high side to the outside. The wheel flanges will hit them if they are on the inside. I've made a few mistakes where I accidentally put the high side to the inside and had nothing but problems. 

Mark
*http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com*


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Still curious as to the locomotive you are running. If it is a Aristo U-25 these units tend to derail easily on track that has cross level or track warp issues. I would recheck the track and get it level and check for warp or twist as some folks like to call it. This the most critical track geometry issue you can have. Later RJD


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