# 2-8-0 ADVICE ?



## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Earlier this summer, we ordered a bachmann 2-8-0, and after about three months, today we recieved our new loco. it came in a well protectected box, but had a broken truck cover on the tender, the front broiler cover was falling off, and after all the neccesary lubing, we put it on our track... and only got a whirling motor noise from it. we were reading voltage on the track, and later ran another loco just to check the layout. after waiting all that time for this locomotive, we were pretty dissapointed that it wouldn't run. we have been reading about loose motor mounting screws, and have been wondering if thats wrong...have checked Greg's site, but after looking at the bottom of the engine, i think we could use a few more pictures and maybe a step by step procecdure on how to get to those screws. could any of the members direct us to a site that might have some good photos and instructions? and/or advise on how to get a brand new engine fixed? (we have a fourth generation big hauler that needed that little plastic drive gear, and bachmann wouldn't sell it to us, and had us send in the engine and the tender,$30,shipping $18, and it only took about four months to get back our locomotive, with broken pieces, so we're a little gun shy of another fiasco with them) Thanks


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Check this out and see if it helps ya....l
http://islsmr.homestead.com/ISLSMR_tips_page9.html


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks Mike, we just finished printing that page, and will give it a good nights rest , and take another look tomorrow.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Rioshay, 

There is a very good chance that the gear on the wheel axel has split, this is a know problem, I recently received a new 2-8-0 and the gear was split right out of the box. 

 Assuming that’s the problem, you have a few options: 
- ring Bachmann for a replacement 
- purchase a replacement gear from NWSL (North West Short Line) 
- order a Barry’s Big Train’s replacement gear box and motor. 

At minium I would suggest the NWSL option as the Bachmann gears will continue to break, I have a couple of the NWSL gears on the way, and from memory is about $15 each. The BBT box and motor will cost $200+ and will make the loco near indestructible. 

The Connie 2-8-0 is a popular locomotive and a good bang for your buck. Spend the time to tighten and add some 222 Loctite on every screw on the loco and you’ll have a real winner that runs smoothly. 

Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks for the tip. just got the motor out , and after inspecting the gearbox and motor, it looked like a good mesh, and the motor was fastened in with locktite from the factory.i also ran the motor and gearbox with a battery , and it sounded good. i then noticed that the axle gear was split, and easily spun on the axle. and this was the whirling sound i heard earlier. this is a brand new out of the box locomotive from bachmann that never moved an inch. i have never seen linda so upset at something we've purchased, and made me swear to never buy another bachmann product. Mr Steam 5, we're gonna order something from shortline, could you give us any tips on how to install that gear?, thanks again MLS


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

It is well known that Bachmann staff read these pages. 
Perhaps they will pay attention to your quite justified dissatisfaction and offer to pay to fix the loco properly. 
If they don't, they should. 

The next problem is that the tender truck side frames are likely to break away from the bolster.
Someone will surely jump in and tell you how to fix them before they do beak.


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Tony, a truck cover from the tender was broken off right out of the box. and the front of the boiler popped off with the wires hanging out. This is a pathetic product, and we are extremely disappointed in this bachmann product , and we'll see about their service. ...but if something is right, i believe in giving credit where credit is due, and that a big heads up and thanks to you TONY, for your prompt replies answering all our questions, good info, and VERY FAST DROP SHIPPING to oregon. we have a lot of confidence in YOUR customer service


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't give upon the Connie. 
I know I am critical of the Connie in this instance, but, when the faults are corrected you will have an excellent model that will serve you well. I understand completely your disappointment in what should be a perfect product. Regardless of it being significantly more expensive than say the Annie. 
Actually the Annie is a very nice smooth running loco with very few drawbacks. So Bachmann can do it if they want to. 
You will quickly learn that very little in Large Scale locomotives is 100% perfect straight out of the box. Many items are very close, some not so close. 

I personally quite like Bachmann products. I just wish some of the morons that are allowed to influence the manufacturer were not in a position to do so.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

How annoying to have to repair something straight out of the box.


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## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

Allen, what is the product # of the NWSL gear? Does it slide on the axel without modification?


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, it looked pretty intimidating, with all those rods, springs, wheels , and stuff, but we sat down and removed the axle and got the gear off. we'll be replacing it ourselves. we're just amazed that bachmann has no quality control, and does not even bench test these spectrum engines before the consumer gets them


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

NWSL have just changed owners and haven’t updated there website, well I think????. Go to there webpage www.nwsl.com and drop them an email or give them a ring (much easier for you guys as you in the same continent  ). I can’t remember the part number, it’s on an updated list I have at home, but I’m currently away for work. 

I’m still waiting on my order to arrive. I think it’s a replacement axle, you will need to press the wheels on and off, I will probably do this on a lathe, but a drill press or similar will probably do the job. As soon as it arrives I will try it and post some instructions as I believe it will be a popular option for Connie owners. 

Since ordering the NWSL option BBT has now released his new box and motor which I have ordered, but I still will try the NWSL option in the name of science. 

A bit of back ground for you Rioshay, I’m not 100% sure if this is the truth, but he problem with some model train gears is they are made from a type of plastic which in time shrinks, a small plastic gear shrinking on a metal axle causes the gear to split. I believe NWSL use aged delrin which is more stable. There is a very good chance your loco would have worked when it was in the factory (like mine) buts its probably been siting in a hobby shop or warehouse for a while now. 

It won’t be a five minute job to replace the gear (or axle) but it can be done. When I have done it I will post some instructions to help you. 

Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks Alan, i took a close look at that plastic gear, it had several cracks, so you're probably on to something. i have been in touch with the new owners dave n linda at NWSL up in montana, and they couldn't find the part number for that gear, so i sent them the one out of my 2-8-0, and they are going to make some.


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Allen, the gear and wheels just press on, wheels are keyed


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Ahh easier than I though it was going to be. 

The replacement gear and axle was on the list they mailed me with a previous order… did they tell you it wasn’t something they stock??? 

Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Allan, as new owners, they said they were going to update and make the product list a little more user friendly. they could only read the previous owners "notes", saying the 2-8-0 was "geared a little high and occassionally came with cracked gears". they were extremely nice and appoligized for not having a part number, and said they would make some up for me, if after measuring up my old gear, they didn't have any. if you have the part number, PM it to me , and i'll relay it to them , and save all us connie owners a lot of time and grief, and a good source for reparing the 2-8-0, thanks allan


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm heading back home Friday afternoon, I’ll go through my paper work and find the part number. I received this list from NWSL a few months back. 

I haven’t seen the product mentioned on this forum until now. I just rang the person who placed an order with NWSL (we both have a bits coming together) they still haven’t received anything, but they’ll give NWSL them a ring to ask if the order has been posted, and also if my Connie gears are in the order. 

Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes Allan, your gears might not have been sent yet because of an unknown part number, but by next week, i'm sure they will be familiar with the right gear, and maybe i can send you the part number. should have guessed that we recieved an" old stock engine " ( and there's nothing wrong with that except for the substandard plastic in such a crucial spot in the drivetrain ), after i opened the box, when we recieved our shay, an instructional DVD was included, with the connie was a VHS info tape. let me know if there's anything i might be able to help you with on this side of the pond, allan


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## itsmcgee (Jan 4, 2008)

My freind found it on page 127 #2226-6 and emailed me the page


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I’m glad someone else had found it, I was starting to worry I was dreaming it up. 

Allan please keep us informed on how you get on with a replacement gear, and I will do the same. 

Thanks 
Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

Good job, Thanks for the item number, lets see what happens


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

I would like to add that bachmann wrote me and said they would be sending out an axle gear to me ,right away, with an offer also send it in for the repair .... and after a careful examination , i do believe Alan is on to something, in that this engine may have been in working order at the mfg date, but because it has been sitting around ( VHS vs DVD instructional tape ), the plastic may have shrunk, as evidence in the large cracks, and the many smaller spider cracks... and athough it was frustrating to have this happen to a new engine, i had alot of fun figuring out how to disassemble the connie, and hopefully found a good source for a replacement gear. i guess i am not use to, or that accepting, of an industry that charges so much, yet seems to continually provide non-working or substandard merchadise, and in my past experience, little or no customer service


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Allan, glad Bachmann offered to help; I never had a reply to my email asking for another. I would normally ring, but it’s not always connivent in Australia to do that. 

I would use the Bachmann gear as a short term fix, still follow up with NWSL. 

Alan


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By RioShay on 23 Sep 2009 06:38 PM 
Yes Allan, your gears might not have been sent yet because of an unknown part number, but by next week, i'm sure they will be familiar with the right gear, and maybe i can send you the part number. should have guessed that we recieved an" old stock engine " ( and there's nothing wrong with that except for the substandard plastic in such a crucial spot in the drivetrain ), after i opened the box, when we recieved our shay, an instructional DVD was included, with the connie was a VHS info tape. let me know if there's anything i might be able to help you with on this side of the pond, allan 

The problem of a plastic part cracking or splitting some time after being pressed onto a metal shaft is not due to shrinkage of the plastic, but to residual and induced stresses in the plastic. Residual stresses exist in the plastic from the molding operation; induced stress from the press fit. The delayed failure comes from the visco-elastic nature of plastic. In addition, environmental factors (chemicals) can weaken the plastic. When the stress exceeds the strength of the material, it will crack. Induced stresses are somewhat easy to calculate, given the dimensions of the parts and the properties of the materials. Residual stresses are impossible to calculate. They come from packing pressure in the molding, cooling rate, and part design, to name a few factors. The same part could be good off of a prototype run but be fail-prone from a production run if changes were made in the molding process (often to speed things up). A lot of work is put into highly engineered parts and products to optimize the molding process and test the parts under high stress conditions. That pays off for high volume consumer products or high cost products where reliability is very important. I'll submit that large scale model trains don't fall into either of those categories, and most of us wouldn't be willing to pay the cost. Even then, delayed failures can occur. When I was working for a major office products company, we had a plastic pulley with pressed-in bearings that had a higher-than-acceptable warranty failure rate. Turned out that most of the ones that failed were on units that were used in a blueprint reproduction environment, and the ammonia fumes were a significant contributor. Hadn't been tested for that!

All that said, plastic pressed (or otherwise stretched) over metal is always a risky design approach. You can test it yourself by screwing a metal pipe plug into a PVC fitting. Give it some time, and the fitting will either crack, or the joint will leak because the plastic relaxed (called "stress relaxation") and the tapered thread joint is no longer tight. I try to avoid the condition in any of my design work as a mechanical engineer.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Posted By RimfireJim on 24 Sep 2009 07:48 PM 

The problem of a plastic part cracking or splitting some time after being pressed onto a metal shaft is not due to shrinkage of the plastic, but to residual and induced stresses in the plastic.


Jim sounds like you’re up to speed on plastic fatigue, my plastic shrinking theory came from a good source, well I think it was.

For example from memory NWSL use ‘aged’ derlin to make gears, and I believe this is because the material has settled and less pron to ‘shrinking.’ Would this be the case, I hope so because that’s what I have been telling people?

Any ideas?

Thanks
Alan


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## RioShay (Feb 26, 2009)

As a follow up, and an attempt to balance my comments, i would like to add that my dealer, Sumpter Valley Depot immediately offered to send the connie back for an exchange.Good show Joe! i called bachmann and they said they would exchange the engine, but didn't have any to send out right now. they also offered to repair the engine, but did admit they were a little shorthanded, so things were backing up in the repair dept, and there's no appoximate date the loco could be estimated to be returned. since the engine was apart, i asked for the axle gear, and it was mailed right away and i recieved it today. the box included a new axle with wheels and drive gear, and all new gears for the gearbox also. these new parts were shipped promptly and will allow me to get my new engine running, thank you bachmann....now if i could just get st aubin's and aristocraft to answer an e-mail or phone call regarding the $85 i spent on a contoller that never worked.( can you imagine running a business where i sent st aubins three emails that were never responded to, and a phone call that brushed me off and told me aristo will handle it, i left three phone messages for george in customer service , and never recieved a follow-up call, and e-mailed mr polk, and never heard anything. if somebody does something right, i'm gonna be the first person to sing their praises, but when somebody does something that i see as wrong, like take my hard earned money and never make an attempt to make it right,i'm gonna sing that also....and as a post script, i would like to add that although i might sound like a complainer to some, i am retired from the US Navy and have served very tuff duty , worked in the cockpits for several aircraft mfg'ers, owned several successful international co's, and consider myself a self made man, and i would have never treated my customers in a manner that i've seen in this hobby/industry


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By steam5 on 24 Sep 2009 08:14 PM 
Posted By RimfireJim on 24 Sep 2009 07:48 PM 

The problem of a plastic part cracking or splitting some time after being pressed onto a metal shaft is not due to shrinkage of the plastic, but to residual and induced stresses in the plastic.


Jim sounds like you’re up to speed on plastic fatigue, my plastic shrinking theory came from a good source, well I think it was.

For example from memory NWSL use ‘aged’ derlin to make gears, and I believe this is because the material has settled and less pron to ‘shrinking.’ Would this be the case, I hope so because that’s what I have been telling people?

Any ideas?

Thanks
Alan

Plastics can be annealed (to reduce or eliminate residual stresses), very similar to how metals can be annealed, although what goes on inside the material is completely different. A Google search will return lots of info. It is especially common for Delrin® (acetal) prior to final machining on tight tolerance parts, as often initial machining removes enough material that the part starts to distort (which may not show up until sometime later). Aging alone may partially accomplish the same thing, not sure about that, but plausible. The annealing uses heat to accelerate the process. NWSL's process would make sense only if they do the machining _after _the aging or annealing, which is what your comment implies. It would help not only with the axle hole, but also with the gear pitch diameter.


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## RimfireJim (Mar 25, 2009)

Posted By RioShay on 26 Sep 2009 06:09 PM 
As a follow up, and an attempt to balance my comments, i would like to add that my dealer, Sumpter Valley Depot immediately offered to send the connie back for an exchange.Good show Joe! i called bachmann and they said they would exchange the engine, but didn't have any to send out right now. they also offered to repair the engine, but did admit they were a little shorthanded, so things were backing up in the repair dept, and there's no appoximate date the loco could be estimated to be returned. since the engine was apart, i asked for the axle gear, and it was mailed right away and i recieved it today. the box included a new axle with wheels and drive gear, and all new gears for the gearbox also. these new parts were shipped promptly and will allow me to get my new engine running, thank you bachmann....now if i could just get st aubin's and aristocraft to answer an e-mail or phone call regarding the $85 i spent on a contoller that never worked.( can you imagine running a business where i sent st aubins three emails that were never responded to, and a phone call that brushed me off and told me aristo will handle it, i left three phone messages for george in customer service , and never recieved a follow-up call, and e-mailed mr polk, and never heard anything. if somebody does something right, i'm gonna be the first person to sing their praises, but when somebody does something that i see as wrong, like take my hard earned money and never make an attempt to make it right,i'm gonna sing that also....and as a post script, i would like to add that although i might sound like a complainer to some, i am retired from the US Navy and have served very tuff duty , worked in the cockpits for several aircraft mfg'ers, owned several successful international co's, and consider myself a self made man, and i would have never treated my customers in a manner that i've seen in this hobby/industry

RioShay,
I don't think your comments are out of line at all. You've stated the good and the bad in what appears to be a factual manner. It's perfectly reasonable to expect something that you purchased new to be in working order when you get it, and for the seller to take care of it if it isn't. In defense of manufacturers, there is always the chance of a problem, class or unique, with anything that they put on the market, but it is how they deal with it and learn from it keep it from happening again that can differentiate them from their competitors. And, how a retailer treats their customers will ultimately make or break their success. I've often said that the true test of the level of service of a retailer never occurs during the sale, but only if there is a problem later.


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