# Cold Weather Butane Fuel



## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Hey guys,

I was wondering what type of butane you all use for cold temperatures. I typically fill the tender with water when the temperatures are around 50-70, but I think the water will cool to fast in the lower temperatures.

So is there any type of butane that would be good for use in temperatures around 15-30?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## weaverc (Jan 2, 2008)

When it's cold outside, I use a Propane Butane mix that is mostly Butane. It works fine in Accucraft and Roundhouse locomotives and will not damage the fuel tanks. The best I've found is the Primus 2202 canister, which is a Butane, Isobutane (higher pressure) and Propane mix. The 2202 cans hold 450 grams of fuel (don't use the smaller 110 gram cans) and accept a screw-on adapter available from several dealers. I buy them from my local camping store by the case so I get a discount and don't have to pay for HASMAT shipping. I've found that the discount price is around $100 for a case of 12. Individual cans sell for around $10. You can see a picture of the 2202 canister at: 
http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/gascartridge2202.aspx 

The mixture is seasonal. In the summer, the 2202 canister mix is 80% Butane (actually 65% Butane, 15% Isobutane) and 20% Propane. In the winter, the mix is reformulated to 75/25. Check the labels for the mixture you want. I usually stock up when I find the 80/20 canisters because less Propane is better since it has a very high pressure.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Couple of years ago I did a test to find out what kind of pressures occur in our gas fuel tanks. Here is the test:

Gas Pressure Test 

Any of the fuels we normally use have very low pressures at 30 degrees F. Pure butane is liquid at 31 degrees F with no pressure. I would say there are no butane based fuels that work well at cold temps. Use warm water in the tender tank is the answer.


----------



## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have over the past few years been putting warm water in zip lock plastic bags and placing them in the tender. Some of the steamers in real cold weather have been using the small hand warmers next to the tank. But you need to be careful not to get it to warm.


----------



## Michael (Jan 6, 2008)

Hello,

The "outdoor people" experience the same problem with their gas stoves. 
Interesting pages with charts for fuel mixtures and their behavior at different temperatures etc.:



http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm
http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm#ColdWeatherOperation


Michael


----------



## steamboatmodel (Jan 2, 2008)

Primus used to sell a heating pad similar to the had heaters that fit the bottom of the canisters. You boiled it untill the crystals went liquid, then wen you wanted to use it you clicked the metal button and fit it under the canister. The trick when camping was to remember to reboil it before you turned off the stove. I have found small hand warmers in the dollar store that may work. Re the "Gas Pressure Test" that is very well done, I was told by a former commercial boiler maker that the fuel tanks were to be tested to 350 psi and that was a Euro regulation. 
Regards, 
Gerald.


----------



## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

I use either the coleman Isobutane mix (sold at Walmart of all places in the camping section)


When there out of them, I get the red MSR cans from Sports Authority (a little bit more expensive).


----------



## ChaoticRambo (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks for the responses guys!

Looks like the easiest option will be to simply have a large supply of warm water and keep replacing the tender bath. Or of course I could always purchase a coal fired engine  (maybe next year lol)


----------



## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

The latest edition of "Steam in the Garden" has a nice article titled "Winter Steaming" by Earl Martin; lead shot filled bean bags kept warm in a crock pot at the steaming bay! You can probably put a couple of bags in your pocket to help keep your fingers warm?


----------



## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes suggested to warm tender water bath, "HotBag": Disposable chemical pads employ a one-time exothermic chemical reaction such as dissolving calcium chloride (CaCl2). The reagents (i.e., CaCl2 & water) are kept in separate compartments within the pad. When the user squeezes the pad, they break and the reagents mix together, producing heat.

Why not just add a little calcium chloride(CaCl2) to the tender water bath ??? "The exothermic dissolution of calcium chloride(CaCl2) is used in self-heating cans and heating pads." CaCl2 used as safer alternative to salt for winter deicer and its self heating properties. Used in food, medicine, etc. 

How much to add? CaCl2 safe to use - metal, paint, skin?


----------



## gwscheil (Aug 6, 2008)

Calcium chloride is highly corrosive to any metal parts. Not a good idea. Keep it sealed.


----------



## Hiawatha Gent (May 6, 2011)

Does the same thing hold true for alcohol fired engines. 

Thanks

Dennis McLain 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css);


----------



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I just got my new Steam in the Garden, they had an article about using bags of lead shot and heating them in a crock pot to then drop in the water bath.


----------



## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Hiawatha Gent on 10 Dec 2011 01:57 PM 
Does the same thing hold true for alcohol fired engines. 

Thanks

Dennis McLain 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 

Butane and other "gas" fuels are stored as a liquid, that at normal temperature and pressure should be a gas. So it vaporizes (becomes a gas) when the temperature is above the temperature of vaporization AND the pressure is low enough to allow it to expand to a gas. If EITHER of those conditions cannot be met, it remains a liquid. The temperature of vaporization as around 35 degrees (F) at normal air pressure. If it is contained in a vessel that won't let it expand, then it will remain a liquid, but the pressure will increase as the temperature goes up. If you open a valve to allow the gas to escape then as long as it is above the temperature of vaporization then the gas will escape through that valve. And as a consequence of vaporizing the remaining liquid will reduce in temperature... so much so that it may cease to vaporize. If you add heat to the container then the temperature will go up and the liquid will again vaporize. You have to keep the fuel tank at least above 35 or 40 degrees (F) or it will cease to vaporize and thus not flow to the burner.

WARNING! The higher the temperature, the higher the pressure that the butane will reach. Get it too hot and the fuel tank will not be able to contain that pressure and could rupture, spewing rapidly vaporizing gas out the rupture, which could catch fire and then you have a large uncontrolled flame thrower in the least and a violent explosion at the worst. Do not under ANY circumstances, heat the fuel tank above a temperature that you would not want to be in. Warming it to around 70 or 80 degrees (F) is plenty... pouring boiling water (212 deg F.) on the tank would probably result in a destroyed tank and conflagration involving at least some of your body parts.

There are those that vent a small amount of steam into the water bath around the fuel tank to keep it warm, but that small amount of steam, (at, say 230 Deg F.) will not heat the much larger volume of cooler water in the bath to incease the temperature very much. If you stick your finger in the bath water and if feels cool then you probably have it about right... If it is cold then more heat can be added, but if you note the water is warm or hot then reduce the amount of steam or add more cool water.


Alcohol is not fed to the burner by pressure, but rather by gravity and capilary action, so there is no need to keep it warm. I suppose there could be a problem with the alcohol freezing to a solid, but that occurs around Minus 30 or 40 degrees (F) (I think... maybe even less). Not much of a problem since I know "I" will not try running my locomotives in temperatures like that and I doubt if you will either!


----------



## Hiawatha Gent (May 6, 2011)

Thank you for great information. I agree about the cold. My grandfather lived in Northern Minnesota. His oil tank line would freeze in the winter. I won't be running in that weather.


----------



## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Alcohol freezes at about -100C or for you Americans that's about -148F. If you're out running in that temperature you’re a better man than I am.


----------



## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Hiawatha Gent on 10 Dec 2011 01:57 PM 
Does the same thing hold true for alcohol fired engines. 

Thanks

Dennis McLain 
@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); 
Alcohol happily burns at any temperature found on the surface of the Earth.


----------



## steveciambrone (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 09 Dec 2011 02:32 PM 
The latest edition of "Steam in the Garden" has a nice article titled "Winter Steaming" by Earl Martin; lead shot filled bean bags kept warm in a crock pot at the steaming bay! You can probably put a couple of bags in your pocket to help keep your fingers warm? When I saw this post I was a bit conserned that lead shot was being used in this way due to the posibility of lead contamination and possible lead poisioning by handling. I was delighted to see the Steam In The Garden article mentioned the use of Steel BBs and does not mention the use of lead shot.
The use of lead should always be minimized or avoided, especially when the intended use consists of frequent handling.

Thanks
Steve


----------

