# Wanted: Carter Brothers Master Class Cars



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

I am searching for one of the following:

a) Someone to laser cut and completely assemble 2 passenger coaches, 2 baggage cars, and 1 combine from styrene, based on David Fletcher's MasterClass of the Carter Brothers cars done around 6-7 years ago.

b) Someone to sell and build existing kits of the same (Rick Raively cut kits)

c) Someone to sell their already built cars.

You may contact me directly at [email protected]. Thanks, Dave Brambley


----------



## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Hello Dave -- from a fellow member of the VTRRHS. 

Just saw this Masterclass thread: 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aft/1447/Default.aspx 

Beautiful parts, I hope you guys find success on this. 

Cliff Jennings


----------



## peter bunce (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By VTRRLoco18 on 16 Jan 2014 01:57 PM 
I am searching for one of the following:

a) Someone to laser cut and completely assemble 2 passenger coaches, 2 baggage cars, and 1 combine from styrene, based on David Fletcher's MasterClass of the Carter Brothers cars done around 6-7 years ago.

b) Someone to sell and build existing kits of the same (Rick Raively cut kits)

c) Someone to sell their already built cars.

You may contact me directly at [email protected]. Thanks, Dave Brambley

Hi Dave, 

There is, or was, another supplier, I don't know if he still has the file for the laser. his kits are in laser cut plywood from Germany, you have to assemble them. Styrene is difficult to laser cut -so much so that Rick covered the sheets with masking tape to provide a dull/matt surface.

He is Harald Brosch, and his website is at http://www.hood.de/i/muskauer-manns...ilesatz-aus-gelasertem-sperrholz-47745558.htm, naturally that is in German, but Google translate will change that and Harald's address is there for him to contact him.

Yours Peter


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

He is Harald Brosch, 
I got my kit from Harald and the 'Lasergang". He seemed willing to make one any time someone ordered a kit. They came with both board-and-batten and later wood siding. 

Doug Bronson was the other (another) supplier of kits. (http://www.bronson-tate.com/index.shtml) He announced a while ago that production had halted due to lack of demand, but he would restart for an order of 10 kits (?) I can find his email if you can't.

Update: I googled "site:mylargescale.com carter bros coaches" and found the saved archive including the PDFs and construction articles. They are in Dwights thread "MasterClasses and Articles Index and Downloads" (G Scale Forums) at http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx . 

I have the complete set (coach+combine) on .PDF files if you can't find them elsewhere. [I also have the combine and coach .DXF files if you want to get them cut. ]


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

his website is at http://www.hood.de/i/muskauer-manns...45558.htm, 
Peter, 
I had no success with that link, but his 'gang' is at www.lasergang.de . If you scroll down their page, you'll find the USA kits including the coaches (directly at http://www.lasergang.de/Verschiedene-Wagen.htm#Carter Brothers US-Coach, Bj. ca. 1880 if the link works.) On that page is the link for the .PDF. ( http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/Masterclass/CarterBrothersCars/MC-Mini2006-Chp-1.pdf ).


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave, 

Given that the DXF files are available, Alan at Great American Locomotion (www.thegalline.com) can cut the coach and combine in styrene for you. 

It appears you want someone to put the kits together - they are quite time-consuming so I'm afraid I am not offering (I've done one and it took me most of my winter stay in Florida.) 
Geoff Ringle at old Iron Designs (http://www.oldirondesigns.com) is a professional model maker and has done similar coaches. He does beautiful work.


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Pete, et al, 

Be careful here, there is another thread on this site addressing this very subject. Dave Fletcher, the originator of those DXFs has commented on using those commercially. And I believe you will receive a cold negative response from Alan. I suggest you do some research here before pushing too far. 

I wish you well, and good luck. 

Bob C.


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chap, 
Just to clarify, I have no difficulty in anyone taking the DXF files to a laser cutter, either wood or styrene and getting a couple of kits cut out for them, that's exactly what Harald does with laser gang and some others. What I don't want is for these kits to turn up as perminent commercial offerings by various companies, with the kits listed as products on their web page. I take no money from Bronson Tate, but did agree long ago to allow the product (with many upgrades) to be sold there. So if Alan or anyone else wishes to cut a kit for the odd guy, but not produce them as a commercial line, they can use the DXF, I have no issue with it. 

I do wish someone would respond to Dave B's request for kits- we cut so many there has to be a load out there not built up. I find the kits usually take between 2 and 4 days to build up, fully painted and stained. Most kits we find from all makers never get built, can someone held out Dave? 

Many thanks, 
David.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I find the kits usually take between 2 and 4 days to build up, fully painted and stained. 
Now I know how you're able to get so many models built--you've found a way to alter the space-time continuum.  It took me 17 days working a few hours each evening to get my car assembled and ready to be painted. Painting took another week due to having to wait for coats of paint to dry. 

I think finding the kits (or getting someone to cut them from the files) is going to be the easy part of the equation. Finding someone with the time and energy to build 5 of them at a cost that's not going to force you to sell your firstborn might be the taller order. Good luck with the project, but sadly I can't offer any assistance. I've still got three of my four passenger cars in various states of "not yet finished" myself--and I started them 6 years ago! 

Later, 

K


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By armorsmith on 17 Jan 2014 08:03 PM 
Pete, et al, 

Be careful here, there is another thread on this site addressing this very subject. Dave Fletcher, the originator of those DXFs has commented on using those commercially. And I believe you will receive a cold negative response from Alan. I suggest you do some research here before pushing too far. 

I wish you well, and good luck. 

Bob C. 

Bob,I've worked with David Fletcher on various projects (his response is what I expected,) and with Alan - check out his coach pages for some of my "kits". I find Alan to be warm and cheerful - what did you ask him to do ? ;-)


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

they can use the DXF 
David, 
I only have the .DXF files for the coach an combine. Dwight's 'archive' thread also has the coach and combine plans, but not the baggage. Did Doug Bronson do the Baggage as a later project - I do recall it existed. 

Are the Baggage plans online anywhere to your knowledge ?


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Pete, 
Yes after the MLC class, I designed the baggage car specifically to add to the two other car types, but only offered through Bronson Tate. I also designed the arch windowed Carter Bros coach, 1st class car, which we never cut due to declining interest. I also then set up 4 duck bill car kit designs based on the Colorado Central cars, also with Bronson Tate, they were my best cars by far and are really beautiful. 

The Carters Baggage car is more different than just new sides to the existing kit, the roof structure is different and simpler to deal with the sliding doors much better than my Combine design, and the whole car is shorter that the other two, plus different clearstory etc.

Sadly that does mean that the only car kits made in styrene with Rick and the only wood cars available from Harald are the coach and combine, none of the others. 

Doug has not ruled out running any of the kits again if interest is there. The most pressing issue at the time of stopping was the problem of casting supply for the hand rails and details. 

The AMS J&S coaches from Accucraft are really excellent and the prime reason that interest in the Carter kits declined, although I do think that everyone who wanted these kits did get them...till now that is. The Carter and CCRR cars however were really pretty and smaller than the AMS coach, being from the 1870s, I find them much more suitable to smaller railways and better with the 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s of that era. I may press for Accucraft to take a look at doing these RTR in future, after the J&S sets/versions are complete in some years. 

David.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I may press for Accucraft to take a look at doing these RTR 
Maybe. You'll recall that one of the threads referenced above was due to Bachmann asking what passenger car we'd like in Fn3. Everyone basically said "duckbill" to be different from the Accu J&S, I think. You never know what B'mann will come out with next . . .


----------



## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

David F, 
Thank you for the clarification. I remember a thread some time ago where Alan was asked and responded that he could not do. I do not remember clearly the details, but just that there was an issue. My intent was not to scare someone off, but to do their due dillagence before getting in over their head. 
I have never been able to master the search here or I would have done my due dillagence better before posting. 
With that clarification, could these be cut on a water jet or will that change the final dimensions? 
Bob C.


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bob, 
Not sure of the differences in cutting line thickness re water jet. My earliest laser cutting was for the Mason Bogie chassis frames, where we calculated the laser cutting thicknesses and widenned the cad file parts to compensate to enable perfect sizes (this was back in 2004), when the sample came in, the tolerances were so damn tight I had to machine out all the lugs and tabs by hand to enable the thing to go together. After that I just draw the design to centre of line and allow the laser cutter to loose some width when the parts are cut. The loose fit really helps the parts to go together just right. I dont know if the water jet is thicker and would need the cad file adapted to compensate. 

Re Alan laser cutting - I dont know who it was, but in the last year a couple of people were cutting the DXF files via a 3rd party laser cutter, one of them asked if they could run the file as a commercial kit and I said no, just cut for people directly when they ask - he went ahead to cut just the one kit and found the cost to be too high to do just one, so let it go. Maybe that was Allan. Dono. I dont mind if they want to cut more than 1, I just dont want them advertising it as a perminent product for sale. 
Best bet is to go to those who have it set up already for cutting, such as Doug Bronson or Harald. 

Many thanks, 
David.


----------



## virgal (Sep 25, 2009)

Greetings
RE: Annual discussion of the Carter Bros. car kit discussion. 2014 edition.


I’ve had discussions with Dave about this subject and I respect his wishes.


As I see it, the Carter Bros car projects are not a profitable venture for anyone that has not already done the prep work in preparing the drawings for cutting without minimum orders. In my case, I would require a minimum of 5 cars per design to break even.


As been stated numerous times, there were many of these cars cut in the past (wood and plastic versions) so I do not see this as a viable venture for me.


That said, I would suggest that if you are interested in finding a un-build kit, look for a wood version. From what I have been told, the laser cut styrene kits that have not been built up, have been rendered useless by time.


I have never cut one of these projects and have no plans to do so in the future.


Alan
www.thegalline.com


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The most pressing issue at the time of stopping was the problem of casting supply for the hand rails and details. 




Not sure that's such an issue. Harald just supplies the wood - you have to find your own bit and pieces. Sounds like Doug could run off the basic styrene kit without much effort ? 

I just dont want them advertising it as a perminent product for sale 
David, 
I'm curious what your rationale is for not wanting them to advertise. No-one else is advertising kits - Harald isn't exactly local (you have to know to be able to find him,) and Doug doesn't even have them on the website these days. Dave B won't find any suppliers online and Google doesn't know about them, except to point you to these threads. Alan doesn't exactly advertise, but I know he would want to put them on his website so that anyone could find him if they wanted one. That's what he did with my EBT coaches. 

Anyway, it still doesn't solve Dave's problem of finding someone to put the kit together. Let's see, Kevin said 17 days at 2 hrs/day is 34 hrs plus painting, (maybe your 2 days work was 12 hrs/day?) I charge $50/hr for photography - should charge more for my experience making kits - so that's $1,700 per kit for my time. Not quite an acceptable price.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

From what I have been told, the laser cut styrene kits that have not been built up, have been rendered useless by time. 
Alan, can you expand on this? What are you hearing that's rendering them useless? The leftover parts from my kit (6 years old at this point) are still okay. I use them here and there as projects warrant. 

I've been told by those who do this kind of thing that "reasonable and customary" charges for assembling kits is usually to charge around what the kit costs. So, a $100 kit would cost an additional $100 to build. I don't know if I'd 100% agree with that pricing structure, especially depending on the level of finish (paint, weathering, extra details) the customer might want. But that's what I've been told. That could also explain why I've not been hired to build a bunch of kits... 

Later, 

K


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Kevin, I think its usually a passion thing why someone would put in so many hours to build something up for minimal cost. My 2-4 days is indeed a hit at 8-12 hrs per day, thats how I work, in blocks of time, rather than bits here n there. we do it our way I guess. I have assembled these kits for free in the past for people only to have them sell them 2 months later at huge profit. One set I actually ended up buying back...buying my own freeking work. Sure you can stife my butt for being so free and easy about this. But to help Pete's question, thats the thing about it. In this hobby I've done it all 100% for free, every time. All the design work, classes, work to help people out, building models for people, it was always for free. I have a real job that pays. I come down pretty hard on others who take advantage of that - like buying back my own work from guys who I did the work for, for free in the first place. As for the kit design, plenty of kits cut, no need for more commercial versions of the same. Doug or Harald have them set up, and I'm sure they will assist when asked. 

Re styrene kits - not seen or heard any issues with the styrene kits, either these cars or cabs etc. I still use and build up many of the styrene pilots and cabs that were cut 5+ years ago, no issue here. I suppose if the kit were left outside in the rain and sun unbuilt it may be a different matter.

David.


----------



## virgal (Sep 25, 2009)

Kevin 
What I am referring to is the pressure sensitive label paper that was applied to the styrene before cutting. It should have been removed by the cutter right after cutting. First the paper and glue is melted to the edge of the cut. With time the rest of the glue sets and is very difficult, near impossible to remove cleanly. I was told by someone that has 2 of these projects that the paper is not coming off. I tried that method of laser cutting years ago and had an awful time getting the paper off without residue, especially along the cut lines. That was within a month of the cut. I still have one of those sheets I did 4 years ago and tried today to get the paper off. As they say here in Jersey “forget about it” 

Alan


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think its usually a passion thing why someone would put in so many hours to build something up for minimal cost 
David, 
I absolutely agree, and that's why I spent the winter making a coach into EBT #20. But the idea of making 5 more coaches (even if I could match your 2-day output,) doesn't excite me quite the same way. 

I've been told by those who do this kind of thing that "reasonable and customary" charges for assembling kits is usually to charge around what the kit costs That may be so for a plastic kit in a box with the instructions. I found the coach kits to be quite complex and they are large, with lots of repetitive work.

When I did my EBT coaches with Alan, I made up a generic 'pilot' model to test the kit before making my coach. I sold the generics for what seemed like a reasonable price, given the kits cost about $200+/- and the Accu coach cost another $200+. I think I got $500 for one of them, maybe less for the others. $100 for my hours of work was not a living wage.


----------



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks to all who responded to my thread. After reading, I understand the situation regarding these cars/kits. Because of poor eyesight, I would not attempt to build a kit myself. 
I will hold out hope that someone may want to sell their built up models some day.


----------



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

Follow Up: I contacted Doug Bronson regarding cutting some kits, and he explained he would need at least 10 of each style (coach, combine, or baggage) of car to make it worthwhile. In addition, he can only offer the wood portions of the kits. The castings that originally came with the kits are no longer available. His source for the castings is not available to cast any more. So it appears Harald Brosch in Germany may be my last hope unless someone here Stateside has kits they want to sell. Contact me through my e-mail if you have any available. Thanks to all, and especially to David Fletcher for his plea on my behalf. Dave Brambley [email protected]


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

His source for the castings is not available to cast any more. So it appears Harald Brosch in Germany may be my last hope 
Dave, 

Couple of things to note. Harald and the Lasergang don't provide any castings, so whichever way you go, the castings will need to be sourced elsewhere. I don't recall needing any castings ? I know Doug Bronson had an explanation of what they are, but the original MLS "kit" didn't specify any (David - can you shed light on them ?) 

I don't think Harald has the plans to cut a Baggage car ? His website doesn't even show the Combine.

I got mine from Harald and it was very nicely cut. It became EBT #20 after I did what the original makers did - cut out between the windows to make it a "Business Car". As you can see, it is quite complete as a kit. (The ends with big windows are also my work.)


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete's right, in the original MLS kit design, we had no castings at all. We basically made everything ourselves. 
The castings in the Bronson kit just help make things easier and include a lot of Nut/bolt/waster castings for the end beams, two queen posts, the turn buckles, the hand rails at the ends of the car, the brake wheel, ratchet and fittings, and the grab rail cleats and small grab irons, plus stove pipe. The CCRR kits also included the whole westinghouse brake system as castings under the car. 

You can certainly take a Bronson kit with no castings and still make a great car. The Masterclass instructions show how to make the end rails, turn buckles etc without castings. You can also just use Ozark. 

David.


----------



## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Doug Bronson's kits also included the trucks, wheels, and coupler pockets. 
The trucks we used were the Hartland/Delton passenger car truck, which were just 3" shy of scale at 1:20.3, they were almost perfect, were the right style and were like $10 a pair, plus wheels. 
Now that Hartland have discontinued the Long Passenger car, these trucks might start getting hard to find. But older Delton ones still show up on ebay from time to time - surplus Delton. 

Doug however does still have a large set of trucks stashed for these car kits. 

David.


----------



## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

The trucks we used were the Hartland/Delton passenger car truck, 
I was very happy with the Bachmann passenger trucks off their coaches. They may not be pure Carter Bros, but I got them in a 'kit' from Nicholas Smith for $25 at ECLSTS. My kit also had the metal end rails and a few other useful items.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The Bachmann trucks (and nearly identical LGB trucks) work nicely, especially when tweaked with a few extra details like proper brake beams. 



















They've got a 4' wheelbase (may be 4' 2", I forget off the top of my head), which--while short for passenger cars--is in the realm of prototypical for passenger cars. 

Later, 

K


----------



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

It's been 6 months since I sent out my first request, so I figured I needed to update it.
I'm still looking for the Carters Brothers kits from the Master Class in styrene. I need 2 passenger coaches and 2 combines. If anyone has some available, please contact me.
[email protected] Thanks

I have a builder, so I just need the kits.


----------



## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

A few options. First, check with your local community college. They may have a laser cutter, and may be willing to work with you. Those--like 3D printers--are becoming more and more common, so your chances of finding someone who is willing to cut these pieces for you are ever-increasing. Check Craigslist or if there are art shows in your area, head there and look for folks selling laser-cut stuff.

Also--while this would be abandoning the Carter Bros. cars, Iron Horse Engraving has announced wood kits for a coach, combine, and baggage car. The cars are East Broad Top prototypes. The coach (East Broad Top #24) is a 14-window board-and-batten coach similar to those produced by Carter Bros, Billmeyer & Smalls, and Jackson & Sharp. The combine (EBT #17) is tongue-in-groove siding. The baggage (EBT #29 and #19, ex Au Sable & Northwestern) is board-and-batten. I thought I had a photo of the cars on my storage space, but I can't find them at the moment.

Later,

K


----------



## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

An update on Hartland/Delton passenger truck availability--I just bought some from Phil at Hartland, and they and the long passenger cars are NOT being discontinued. Just out of production at the moment.

Larry


----------



## VTRRLoco18 (Jan 6, 2008)

I have accepted the fact I may not find any Carter Bros. styrene kits. I am therefore searching for 2 coach kits and 2 baggage kits in wood (the baggage kits were only available from Bronson Tate). Please contact me if you have any to sell. Thanks, [email protected]


----------

