# Polk's Will Close Its Doors - 31 Dec 2013



## RickV (May 25, 2012)

I just received this email:



*Polk’s Will Close Its Doors 12-31-13*


_October 1st, 2013_


Since 1935, we have provided service and innovation to the Hobby industry. In this latest downturn, we cut back staff to the minimum required to survive. Then the government battle over the debt ceiling drove the consumer market down even further.[/i]
_
We’ve managed to stay in business, but the continued depression for the consumer has caused us to fall into debt that is unsustainable. We have put several million dollars into product development over recent years, but the need for customers to cut back on non-essentials has caused this investment to be lacking in returns.

We have seen leisure activities like golf courses plunge in popularity, as funds for such recreation have dried up. It seems to be the same for hobby time investments. Our products are no longer inexpensive as they were in the 1930s-era Depression. The cost of manufacturing along with minimum production runs and long lead time has caused a lack of ability to continue as a sustainable entity. It’s no longer a business!

It has been a pleasure to help our creative consumer base to enjoy their hobby and we have no regrets in doing so. Our business grew every year until the 2008 as the recession caused a shrinking of the mindset to stay active in our large-scale model train arena. We know that smaller scales have remained viable, but the higher cost of Large Scale trains and the space required to run them have not maintained their share of the market. Our airplane R/C portion of our business was lost when our patented frequency changer was lost to the 2.4Ghz portion of the marketplace, with no frequency compounds needed any longer.

For 80 years, the Polk family has made a fair living in the Hobby industry. I can’t help but remember the scores of co-workers that have helped make this organization as special as it was. Thanks to them all, but notably: Gil Rose, B.M. Song, J.K. Kim, Sam Kimm, Tom Flynn, Cliff Crane, Charlie Binder, Marvin Binder, John and Sherry Shievdayal, Aixa Lebron, Joe Bamberger, David Newell, Walter Matuch, John Mikesh, Navin Shievdayal, Marguerite Hubert (Rose), Michael J. Vickey, Jonathan Polk, Scott Polk, Fred Polk, Irwin Polk, Nathan Polk, Maryann Polk Bob Calandra, George Adams, Michael Hauptmann and so many others, it would take a book to list them all. While I can’t list all the hundreds that were part of the team, they remain in my heart and mind.

Our humble thanks to our loyal customers. Our apologies for not being able to keep this almost 80-year-old business going. It’s a heartbreaker for us all.


All the best,_


_The Polk Family_



Personally I'm not all that surprised given how unreliable stock levels have been these past few years as well as the fact that they started selling directly to the public via their website at prices that were as cheap or cheaper than the discount hobby shops such as Wholesale Trains and Train World. While this was great for me as a consumer it wasn't sustainable. It will be sad to see them exit the market and I hope that the void is quickly filled and prices don't go up dramatically.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

One thing I'm not all that clear on however is the future of Crest Electronics. My understanding is that the brand is part of the Aristocraft/Polks group and as such I would have thought that they too are closing (especially when you take into account the comment above about their model aircraft R/C business) however the recent creation of Crest's own website and ordering portal makes me wonder if this part of the business has been carved off into a separate and independent entity?


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## Terl (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry to see them go. They were an important part of the Garden Railroad hobby from when I started about 25 years ago. I have alot of their stuff.


Terl


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Weren't they vehemently denying these "rumors" just a few weeks ago?


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah Dwight, but we all instinctively knew what was really going on. 
I assume Crest is still a viable business and now sold off because of 'liabilities'. 

Andrew


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Reguardless , its sad to see any company go under.


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Very sad news.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Polk's Hobby Shop circa 1971 during the shooting of 'The Godfather'.
5 floors of hobby fun!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Regardless , its sad to see any company go under.I agree with that. Especially one that's been around for so long.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

For some of us, this is definitely a sad day. 

Ed


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## Cmorais (Mar 11, 2013)

Hope someone will take on Aristo line.

Maybe Bachmann? - would the announced release of its first 1:29 scale product have something to do with this?

Jose Morais
Headmaster of the CF da Lapa Furada


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Really sad, They did a lot for the hobby. I remember when the heavyweights came out, how much they lifted the bar back then. The Pacific was way out there when new. They did a lot for us. 

David.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

And so another chapter in the hobby and our lives will soon begin. We can only hope Bachmann continues to provide the trains of Aristo Craft with greater availability. 

One warning to those who rely on the Chinese companies to supply your products. If they are making and selling a competing product and want your business, all they have to do is raise the price, raise the minimum order and run you out of business. Then they own the molds and it's all theirs. Yes, the economy may have been a large part of why the Polks are going out of business, but the Chinese stuck the final dagger.


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## sbaxters4 (Jan 2, 2008)

so I'm guessing that this means any and all Aristo is going to be hard to get. I have a mallet that is having gear issues so I guess I had better get that to them for service soon!!!  sad to see them go!


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

According to Navins last note this AM Crest has been spun off from Polks Hobby and will continue. He inferred this in his previous note.Hopefully Lewis will fill us in on details of the end game. Such as who will acquire the inventory of spare parts? Will RMT continue as a separate company or close with the Aristrocraft line. 
We all saw it coming, but I will miss them as they had many very fine and innovative products. 
All the best to TATE, Scott and the rest in their future.


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## Naptowneng (Jun 14, 2010)

AH a sad day for the hobby. Double whammy for me, as we just left Martys after a great weekend, and camp around the American West for a month, and Federal lands are now closed. Yow, gonna need a long happy hour tonight

Regards

Jerry


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

WWW.CREST-ELECTRONICS.NET 
RM. 230-231 
32 NOBLE ST. 
NEWARK, NJ 07114 

October 1, 2013 

Dear All, 

New Crest Revolution deliveries just arrived, including sets with either steam or diesel sounds as well as receivers with either sound. Also just arriving is the Li-On batteries from Sanyo and our Guardian board. Don’t forget our companion auto cutoff charger is already in stock. We are fully committed to continuing the Revolution line and next year will add H.O. boards and new software. Please see our new website at www.crest-electronics.net. (Remember to use the dash in the domain name) 


Crest Electronics will be relocated to the above new address after December 1, 2013. All package deliveries for repair will go to that address after that date and the 698 South 21st Street in Irvington, NJ 07111 until that date. 

I will be doing the sales for Crest and the repairs for Aristo-Craft Trains for at least one year or until the parts run out. I’m also the product manager for Crest Electronics and will be the support person for the Revolution line. 

Please no visitors to this facility, as this is a private mixed-use commercial building. I will see you at public train shows as often as possible. 

Thank you for your patience during the transition. A new phone number has not been assigned yet, but we will notify you when it is. 


Navin Shievdayal 
Product Manager 
Crest Electronics 
www.crest-electronics.net


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a sad day, but I cannot say I am surprised given how things have been going the last year or so. 

I do find it interesting that the release specifically says "Polk Hobby" and NOT Aristocraft, I hope that means someone is going to step in and take over the Aristo product line. I wonder what this means for the RMT line in O? I believe they were spun off the same way Crest was. 

Dam there go my diesel kitbashing bricks!


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

This will be interesting as to how it plays out. There is product sitting over in China but not paid for. It's going to go somewhere.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

One more voice of concern.... how sad. 
I'd like for Hartland to pick up the rest of the Delton / Classics plus the retooled C-16. 
I like that odd duck scale ON 45mm track, to my old eye it looks right sized at 10' 
Other than track, I had less and less use for them as they removed product... 
They should sue whomever screwed up their modern 2-8-0, that loco plus the revo could have saved the company. 

John


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Pretty much cash down the toilet when it comes to suing a company in China. With product sitting in china that Polk couldn't raise the case to pay for pretty much put an end to Aristo Craft as we know it.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Oct 2013 05:11 AM 
Weren't they vehemently denying these "rumors" just a few weeks ago? 
Yes they were. Doesn't this make you want to trust everything that they say?







It was clear to me a month ago what was happening. Here goes the LGB debacle all over again... How many years until 'new' product releases after the LGB? I'm guessing the molds are still in tack, and someone is trying to buy them (plus all the production already produced)...

Craig


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

This is just my opinion based on my own observations but its no secret that Aristo's product line is manufactured under contract with Sanda Kader, same company that owns Bachmann, and if you understand the way the toy industry works, that in all likelihood its Sanda Kader who owns the tooling for the AC line, Polk Hobbies would contract for production runs, thats why there's still unpaid stuff sitting in China. So its highly likely that once Polk Hobbies closure is finalized and any remaining contracts are negated, that Kader will have the option to either sell the lineup or more likely offer it under the Bachmann sales banner. There may a few items Kader doesnt own the tooling to but that wouldnt fit the standard business pattern in China. 

If you understand the way the toy manufacturing market works, you'll know what I mean by that. A company may sell a certain toy under their name, but the actual tooling is owned by the manufacturer and you are contracting with that manufacturer to produce that certain toy for you under your name, you own the license to sell that toy under your name and no one else can sell that toy due to copyrights and licenses, but once your license expires or you renege on your contract due to bankruptcy or ?, the manufacturer can then reissue that toy under a new license or under their own name, often with no changes or with necessary cosmetic changes if the original was under copyright, this is IMHO how Newqida produced their line while Marklin couldn't lift a finger in opposition because they no longer owned the tooling or the licensing after EPL burned up. Those rights were in all likelihood reverted back to the manufacturer per contract after EPL reneged on their agreement. 

Again this all just my own opinion, maybe we will see the same here with Kader, possibly next year.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree Vic. With Bachmann testing the waters with a 1/29 trolley, its as if they had advanced knowledge... How long does it take to design, build, make molds for new products?


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you are spot on Vic


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep truly a sad day for the G scale folks. Lets hope someone picks up AC line and what has already been made. Later RJD


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Vic, I agree in essence with what you said but the Newqida and LGB molds were not the same therefore the tooling and manufacturer were different. Bachmann and Buddy L car molds were slightly different too. I think the Chinese don't always adhere to licencing agreements, depends on how much they need the other party. Once the money stops flowing they do otherwise. It is ultimately up to the distributor within each country of sales to legally protect their 'licence'. 

Andrew


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I have been into garden railroads for only the last year and a half. I started G scale with Aristo track and some of their buildings. I like the way the track joiners screw together to make a much better connection. Will need to make sure I get what I need for next year's phase 2 expansion. I know there are other options for track. Still, it's sad to see a long time model railroad company "bite the dust".
Then I realized that Aristo Craft and I go back much more than just the last year or so. I started HO in the early 1960's when I was just about 12. Back then Aristo Craft sold a line of relatively inexpensive HO steam locomotives and also a power pack.

My original Aristo power pack from the 1960's is still in use on my HO layout as dc power for the various structure and street lights.










I then dug through my boxes this am and low and behold found 2 Aristo Craft steam loco boxes. The 10 Wheeler is long gone (don't know why I still have the box) but the 0-8-0 is
still there in pieces. These were my first HO locos way back when. I recall that the 10 wheeler's pilot trucks would derail about every 5 feet. Still, a great way to start for a 12 year old with 
limited funds.









Some things come full circle. 
Thanks Aristo Craft for the memories.

Wayne

Knackered Valley Railroad
Long Island, NY


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not worried so much about the trains themselves; so long as the molds exist and there's a demand, there will be someone willing to take the risk to pump plastic into them. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon enough. I think the biggest impact, short term, will be the track--specifically the stainless steel track. My hope is that USA can quickly introduce stainless track to their existing product line since they've already got the product lineup for brass. That still leaves the modeler searching for switches other than a wide #6, but it's better than nothing and fills the hole quickly. 

Time will tell, though. Look at how unexpected players stepped into the fold when LGB went down for a while. Piko stepped up very quickly--partly with 20-year-old MDC molds, to boot! And Massoth took that opportunity to assert themselves as the brains behind LGB's electronics, making their brand much more of a household name than it had ever been in the past. LGB's back, but a shadow of its former self in terms of market share. 

On the bright side, even if it takes a few years to get plastic flowing through Aristo's molds again, new products from _any_ manufacturer have been very slow over the past few years, so what's a little more of a delay? 

Later, 

K


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

This is truly disappointing to hear. With the big "we're not closing" posts of the recent months, I had a feeling that "The lady protests too much".. Even though I did not always agree with Lewis or the way he conducted his business, I still respected him for his sometimes visionary moves. Modern rolling stock, SS track, etc. I didn't agree with the proprietary revolution, I thought it just fragmented the market further. I wish Lewis, Scott, and all the other players there at Polk's the best in whatever their future endeavors bring them.


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

It's tragic. 

It also indicates the stresses prevalent in the industry for this scale. It isn't as simple as "others picking up the mold and supplying the plastic". In a flippant way, it just isn't like suggesting you go to other forums if this doesn't work for you. For a manufacturer to go down after 80+ years, it is a brutal tragedy for the industry. If you study Kader Holdings operating loss as of June 2013 and similar to the loss in the same period, 2012, you'd see the trend - almost every one of "them" has lost money consistently. Even to hope that someone would pick up the slack and continue the line is based on what ? Fumes ? Wishful Thinking ?

Maybe.

Victor


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

The downfall didn't start in 2008 but in the years when LGB went under. While LGB is back the loss of Aristocraft will hurt our industry in many ways. Even if Kader picks it up. 

But not all things are bad. Track an switches inclduing #6 and #8 are available and Stainless Steel track has a very good altrenative in NpB rails. Hi conductvity (10x better than stainless steel) and corrosion free (better than stainless steel). NpB rail is proven for years in major commercial and private layouts. 

I wish Lewis and Scott the very best. 

Axel


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

We figure this was going to happen way back when things went to China. Lot of us have been buying and watching both in the Ho hobby and Garden R.R. raise and dip. Just to bad to hear this as I was born the year Polks hobby started. 
Use to be like Athern Mfb. that use to have the sake a box kits for 4 to 10 buck and took an evening to build and was fun to see something that you built. But now I don't think there is to many out there any more. So Polk, Aristo Varney, AHM, Tyco, Mantua, Hobbytown and so many, more and more that I forgot the list that goes on and on.. 
I talk to a the Owners few yr's back (Dave and now Mark M.) of Precision Scale that started out in Woodland, Ca in early 50ths. I knew both well and help them move to Montana by loading 27 truck loads to there new building. 
Now the brass business is very bad and to fill in is making other item that are not Trains stuff. 
I remembering in the late 40ths with my Dad and I going down town Sacramento by trolley to a Hobby Shop to see the new trains that was out by them. The hobby's like every thing else we do, is who can make the most money and money talks.. So we sold our sole, Tech's and Mfg. to across the pond after 1945. Now we are all paying for it. 
Way things are going, there is not going to be any so call hobby's left. The way we see it as others we talked to some of the old timers is all will be new technology on computers for the new gen. 
So ....Sorry to hear the news, but like other Mfg's. it's been talked about for a long time. 
Just an old guy bitter at the news.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Odd place for a sales pitch....


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Having been one of the original beta testers on the C-16 program and working with Lewis on new R&D projects (that never came to light), I am especially saddened to see them go. I'll miss talking with Lewis at the trade shows.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Garratt on 01 Oct 2013 10:07 AM 
Vic, I agree in essence with what you said but the Newqida and LGB molds were not the same therefore the tooling and manufacturer were different. Bachmann and Buddy L car molds were slightly different too. I think the Chinese don't always adhere to licencing agreements, depends on how much they need the other party. Once the money stops flowing they do otherwise. It is ultimately up to the distributor within each country of sales to legally protect their 'licence'. 

Andrew 
Thats why I said they will often make cosmetic changes to avoid possible legal issues, alot of folks can point to where on both Buddy L and Newqida where they are identical with Bachmann or LGB but also to where changes were made, I suspect the changes were as much for production line modifications (different injection molding machines) as much as for the legal quandaries. Bachmann had no say about the Buddy L stuff because it was all being produced under the same roof, and as for Marklin and Newqida I believe LGB/EPL going bankrupt meant the ownership of the tooling for those items may have fell back into the factories hands per contract in lieu of payments due. The modifications made were both cosmetic to get around any Eurozone copyright grounds and also due to changes in the production line (different machines doing the injection molding?) as it was Marklin may have huffed and puffed and there may have been a great gnashing of teeth among the Red Box crowd, but legally, they were perfectly in the clear, as attested to that you can still buy them today, years after the fact. Also the very fact that ONLY those very few items are the ONLY knockoffs to have come out of China under the Newqida banner, further reinforces my belief that these were contract spoils of war, either way Marklin got back everything else that was being produced in the PRC while only the 6 NQ pieces have ever seen the light of day.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

He may be a little premature, but Criswell ghost speaks and suggests a possibility we may yet see a return of some of the product line under another banner sometime next year.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, there is that story of a container that was due in November. I wonder where it will end up now...


Drifting off topic... Vic, there is nothing the same on the LGB and Newqida molds. They are close copies but every detail is different. 



















Andrew


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

If a seasoned veteran of the hobby, who is already using Chinese manufacturing can't make it in 1:29, What makes people think someone who will need to make a sizable investment to get in, is going to do it? Just need to hear the logic/numbers that will make this a profitable venture for someone.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

Sad to read the news. My entire empire is 98% aristo. As long as I can get my Revolution Rx's, I'll be set for awhile. Thank you Aristo, for what you have provided for me. 
Greg R.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 01 Oct 2013 01:33 PM 
If a seasoned veteran of the hobby, who is already using Chinese manufacturing can't make it in 1:29, What makes people think someone who will need to make a sizable investment to get in, is going to do it? Just need to hear the logic/numbers that will make this a profitable venture for someone. 
Jeff,

I'm not sure what you mean? I haven't seen any new announcements for 1/29 products from new companies other than Bachmann... Bachmann is owned by whom again? And Bachmann, Aristro, and USAT all share the same manufacturing plant? If (and that's a big if) Bachmann gains access to the Aristo-Craft molds I don't really see a huge investment on Bachmann's part. They don't have to do all the R&D, all they have to do is fund a run of production using already existing molds ( just relabel products already made (ie the "new" 0-4-0 with build dates of 2011, boxed in 2012, shipped in 2013).. Bachmann wouldn't announce a new product in the 1/29 line if they saw it as a failure. I think that Bachmann (for what ever reasons) saw the hand writing on the wall of Aristo's demise and saw a market opportunity. I hate to say this but Bachmann seems to be the strongest player in large scale right now. USAT hasn't released much new product (auto rack?), LGB/Marklin is reproducing old molds, Bachmann seems to be releasing new motive power, Accucraft hasn't had much in the plastic market (how many years has the GP60 been on hold?). Who are the other major players in the large scale manufacturing scene? 

Craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kader owns Bachmann and Sanda Kan 

Kader manufacturers Bachmann, Aristo, USAT 

Kader has the molds, physically. 

Accucraft won't buy the Aristo molds. 

The company who bought Marklin, and thus LGB most likely won't try to buy the molds from China.. 

Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

LGB/Marklin is reproducing old molds 

No. MLGB have been consistenly introducing new products, and have been doing a good job of it, it's just that they have been focussing on the European prototypes. Piko has been experiencing double digit growth in their large scale line in the last couple of years. The difference is Piko owns their own factory in China (well as much as anyone can) and so has more control over their own destiny. They might make less per loco, but...they're still in business...


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 01 Oct 2013 02:20 PM 
LGB/Marklin is reproducing old molds 

No. MLGB have been consistenly introducing new products, and have been doing a good job of it, it's just that they have been focussing on the European prototypes. Piko has been experiencing double digit growth in their large scale line in the last couple of years. The difference is Piko owns their own factory in China (well as much as anyone can) and so has more control over their own destiny. They might make less per loco, but...they're still in business... 
Thanks for the correction.


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Oct 2013 02:17 PM 
Kader owns Bachmann and Sanda Kan 

Kader manufacturers Bachmann, Aristo, USAT 

Kader has the molds, physically. 

Accucraft won't buy the Aristo molds. 

The company who bought Marklin, and thus LGB most likely won't try to buy the molds from China.. 

Greg 
Greg,

My point exactly, but in less words!







I wonder in USAT would be interested in buying Aristo's molds? Aristo loco shells with USAT motor blocks? Hummm


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Very sad news. 

Thanks all for filling us new guys in on the history and dynamics involved here.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig, That is my question, what is Bmann (or anyone else) going to do that Aristo couldn't to make it profitable? They still have to do marketing of a new product line. If they could increase the price and still sell the product don't you think Aristo would have done that? Bmann getting into 1:29 would not be the first time a company made the wrong move. Who is left? well it looks like MTH is back in with their 1:32. IF they pay attention they can gian sales by making cars to go with the live steam offerings, almost all of which a 1:32 not 1:29 But that a whole other topic for another thread. 
Still looking for the buisness logic/numbers..


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 01 Oct 2013 02:53 PM 
Craig, That is my question, what is Bmann (or anyone else) going to do that Aristo couldn't to make it profitable? They still have to do marketing of a new product line. If they could increase the price and still sell the product don't you think Aristo would have done that? Bmann getting into 1:29 would not be the first time a company made the wrong move. Who is left? well it looks like MTH is back in with their 1:32. IF they pay attention they can gian sales by making cars to go with the live steam offerings, almost all of which a 1:32 not 1:29 But that a whole other topic for another thread. 
Still looking for the buisness logic/numbers.. 
Quality Control? I personally think AC's biggest problem (bachmann's too) is the content denial of QC problems. I think the produce could sell if Bach. could find a way to get it to market..That's the key. USAT seems to be holding steady in the 1/29 market, so clearly there's a market demand for some products.


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Sad to hear this, but not suprising. 

My big question/concern is, is anyone else going to pick up the aluminum track production? 
Anyone heard any rumours?


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dave F on 01 Oct 2013 03:47 PM 
Sad to hear this, but not suprising. 

My big question/concern is, is anyone else going to pick up the aluminum track production? 
Anyone heard any rumours? 
Dave,

Do you mean Stainless Steel track? AC never made any aluminum to my knowledge.


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

What about those new ore cars? I wonder if they have shipped or are sitting in China?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 01 Oct 2013 02:33 PM 
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Oct 2013 02:17 PM 
Kader owns Bachmann and Sanda Kan 

Kader manufacturers Bachmann, Aristo, USAT 

Kader has the molds, physically. 

Accucraft won't buy the Aristo molds. 

The company who bought Marklin, and thus LGB most likely won't try to buy the molds from China.. 

Greg 
Greg,

My point exactly, but in less words!







I wonder in USAT would be interested in buying Aristo's molds? Aristo loco shells with USAT motor blocks? Hummm 

No. They are cutting back on new production...last, I think, was the auto racks.
Best bet is for Kader to simply start producing Aristo under a slightly different name.
I was told...crimeny, when the SD-45 came out, that I could call Sanda Kan and order SD-45's in 1:29 with my company name on the bottom and the box.
Kader, if they own the tooling as I was told by an Aristo person all those years ago, will not allow their investment in the tooling that they own to go away.
You can almost bank on some new name or mix of names, and the re-introduction on or about 01JAN2014.
Time will tell.
As the RBB used to say..."Wait until next week"!
TOC


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 01 Oct 2013 04:12 PM 

No. They are cutting back on new production...last, I think, was the auto racks.
TOC

But isn't an actual new product better than a 'new' old product? USAT might not be producing tons of new stuff, but at least they seem to be willing to invest $$ into new molds with the auto racks.. Better than seeing 2011 product labeled as 2013 product. It will be interesting to see if B.mann holds the reins for 1/29 in the future?


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## SteveF (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bnsfconductor on 01 Oct 2013 03:57 PM 
Posted By Dave F on 01 Oct 2013 03:47 PM 
Sad to hear this, but not suprising. 

My big question/concern is, is anyone else going to pick up the aluminum track production? 
Anyone heard any rumours? 
Dave,

Do you mean Stainless Steel track? AC never made any aluminum to my knowledge. 

Yeah, actually they do (did?). I have nearly 400 feet of the stuff.


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## RIrail (May 5, 2008)

If Kader is the same manufacturer for USAT, what's to stop Kader from putting the squeeze on USAT?


Steve


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes AC made aluminum track. This will be missed also. Was good for us LS folks as it was cheap. Later RJD


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By RIrail on 01 Oct 2013 05:17 PM 
If Kader is the same manufacturer for USAT, what's to stop Kader from putting the squeeze on USAT?


Steve


Chinese companies will happily make and deliver anything you want, even if its in direct competition with their own product lines, as long as you pay your bills in full and on time.


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## bicyclexc (Mar 31, 2010)

Seconded on the aluminum track. I'm buying 4 wide aluminum switches asap just to have. I can get 332 aluminum rail and us ties elsewhere though so that's less of a problem.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kader was not the reason Aristo went under... otherwise USAT and all smaller brands would have gone under too. The economy did not help but Aristo dug their own grave.


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## Robby D (Oct 15, 2009)

AML is coming out with #6 switches in Aluminum, Stainless Steel & Brass.


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01 Oct 2013 06:58 PM 
Kader was not the reason Aristo went under... otherwise USAT and all smaller brands would have gone under too. The economy did not help but Aristo dug their own grave. 

Greg, can you expand on that just for clarity.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

More than a decade ago it was Aristo-Craft that first got my attention with the Wine Train, and I started in "G" scale. The majority of stuff I have is Aristo. Though a number of their items have had problems, I always would try to find a solution and write about it and publish it - at first on the Aristo Forum, then when they seemed sensitized about it, I move on to MLS and took up Greg E's generous offer to use his Web site to host the "*vignettes*".

I am very sorry to see Aristo vacate the business after all the years in it, and especially wish the very best to all the people in their employ.

As to Aristo offering aluminum track, see the following:

*Aristo Aluminum track - Aristo Web site*
*Aristo Aluminum track - RLD Hobbies*

-Ted


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

It would interest me as to exactly who owns the old Delton Locomotive Works dies. I would be especially keen for getting a couple of 2-8-0 powered chassis, complete with cylinders and valve gear. For the most part, I suppose 1:24 is practically extinct, but Delton had some really good stuff. Who knows? Stranger things have happened.

Best,
David Meashey


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

A quick derailment of the topic, but Dave, the original Delton drives weren't of the best design, hence Aristo re-engineering them (twice). On the original ones, the motor was secured directly to the plastic frame next to the powered driver. If the motor got hot, the plastic softened, the gears got misaligned and chewed up something terrible. Caledonia improved this by mounting the motor to an aluminum block instead, but their gears were cut poorly, and the brass teeth on the worm ate into the plastic on the main drive gear with similarly poor results. I had a couple of these C-16s of early vintage, and all of them failed. The only one still in operation now is the one built on Aristo's latest belt-driven chassis. Don't know if their parts department has spares, but I'd give them a call to see. It may be your best bet. 

Later, 

K


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

Anyone else having troubles ordering from the Aristocraft.com website? I can add items to my cart but can't proceed to the checkout as it says "AristoCraft.com is currently under construction" as well as "Nearly 40% Done! We are building our new online shop, and finalizing page styles & layouts!".


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

AristoCraft.com is currently under construction 
estimated time remaining before official launch 
0 Days, 0 Hours, 0 Minutes, 0 Seconds


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

I was aware of Robbie's (RLD) stock of Aluminum track. If I can scrape the $$ together I may drive down and buy up what stock I can. Ideally I'd like about 1000 feet, but we'll see what I can afford. 
Hopefully another mfgr (like AML) will pick up the slack. 
To my way of thinking. for those running battery/RC, aluminum just makes sense.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Per yesterday's post, by Lewis:

http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbu...hp?t=20774

Subject: [/b]This forum will continue indefinitely[/b] 

Dear All,

I have transferred the billing of this forum to my personal account and will keep it in service as long as possible. Just because we're not producing more trains does not mean that current and past users do not need advice and want to search our many years of history answers here.

I hope the friendships developed here will continue and it will remain a good spot to come to for all things Aristo-Craft.

All the best,

Lewis Polk 

Good to see that communication lines are open, at least for the reasonably foreseeable future.

Not to take anything away from that intention / hope, but they should take at least some of their site offline at this point. E.g., under About Aristocraft (from their main page), it still says:

With constant New Arrivals our catalog grows to meet the demands of our clients. Quality, loyalty, availability and customer satisfaction are just a few of our key company mantras. We strive to provide you with the best service possible so that you may enjoy all our past, present and future products for generations to come. 


Under the circ's, they might want to modify some of that language.

Regardless, I hope the best for that product line. Too much is falling away... 

Cliff


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

Thanks to CliffyJ's link to the Aristocraft forums I just found this post from Scott:


http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbu...hp?t=20781 

Hey Guys,I needed to do work on the checkout page to accommodate orders. It will be back up for you to order by end of day. Thank You,Scott


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Sad note from Tate today: 

http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=20773 

Lots of angst being expressed on their forum, very unsettling to folks newer to the hobby.


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## engineer bob (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm wondering what the future holds for the eclsts. If I understand correctly, the show backbone was polk hobbies. I'm also very sad to see aristocraft go under. I'm not sure what the connection between aristo and crest is, but I hope the revolution line continues to grow. 

Bob


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI 

Harry and Kathy Hartman are promoting the EClSTS for March 2014. Link.. 2014 ECLSTS


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 03 Oct 2013 06:04 AM 
FYI 

Harry and Kathy Hartman are promoting the EClSTS for March 2014. Link.. 2014 ECLSTS


I saw that post yesterday as well, but it's dated 08-20-2013. I wonder if this announcement changes things.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dave 
read all of this Harry just posted the other day about a show car http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=20292&page=2


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

This is very sad news about Aristo Craft will be gone in these 3 months. I have reviewed an email and all points in current forum. But, those are not really made AC going down. I would be still remember that I was so happy to started my G scale collection with AC in 5 years ago. Their product prices were so reasonable and quality was good. As unknown reasons in few years ago, their price line was raised so much. But, AC had no any great new product release. Also, most of modellers didn't like any modernize locomotive and rolling stock. This was hard to run an industry if all brands were focus on same historical models. It would cause a big competition between of them. 

By the way, Aristo Craft have lack of promoted their products with juniors. Some of senior modellers have usually looked down juniors as they called "newbie" or something else. Thus, this is so negative feeling for anyone who want to start G scale. If there have no junior to involved G scale, the industry will collapse so quickly due to no new customer. Those senior modellers have bought many stuffs already. They would look for any special model or more fine detailing model only. This is not enough for business. 

Hope those remain brands of G scale could wake up in next step of business earlier. Otherwise, there maybe another brands will collapse also. Now a days, there few of people like model trains because the young people have many different hobbies for instead. Model brands and modellers have to helping each other to extend this hobby for younger generation.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By seadawg on 03 Oct 2013 07:03 AM 
I saw that post yesterday as well, but it's dated 08-20-2013. I wonder if this announcement changes things.
Dave... I've been in email contact with Harry recently and the show is on and hotel is booked... 

The latest on the show as of today from Harry


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

From Facebook: 

Aristo-Craft Trains 
Hi Everyone, 
We are doing our best to get every order out the door. Please be patient. If you have an order in house we are about 1 week behind. We know you are used to getting your package within a couple of days but in this situation you can only imagine how busy we are. Please spread the word. 

Thanks, 
Aristo-Craft Trains


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## adir tom (Dec 4, 2011)

Trainworld, the largest internet retailer of G scale trains, announced they are clearing all remaining inventory of G scale MTH stock. With out hobby shops and the lack of internet retailers selling this line, is it too going the way of Aristrocraft? Note: this is only the G scale line!! 

Want and real world are two different beast. A retailer noted he has seen a 70% drop in G scale trains since its peak. Kandra reports a 40% loss in revenue from trains in the last 3 yrs. Doesn't one think similar discussions took place with balsa boat//plane kit manufacturers when styrene models virtually wiped out their market. Or when HO wiped out the styrene model market? When was the last time you bought a styrene boat or plane kit for your kid or grandkid? or a balsa ship model? or do you know anyone who collects stamps or coins? 

Personally, I think Lewis saw the hand writing on the wall and bailed, leaving what is left of the market to Bachmann and USAT.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By adir tom on 09 Oct 2013 11:13 AM 
Trainworld, the largest internet retailer of G scale trains, announced they are clearing all remaining inventory of G scale MTH stock. With out hobby shops and the lack of internet retailers selling this line, is it too going the way of Aristrocraft? Note: this is only the G scale line!! 

Want and real world are two different beast. A retailer noted he has seen a 70% drop in G scale trains since its peak. Kandra reports a 40% loss in revenue from trains in the last 3 yrs. Doesn't one think similar discussions took place with balsa boat//plane kit manufacturers when styrene models virtually wiped out their market. Or when HO wiped out the styrene model market? When was the last time you bought a styrene boat or plane kit for your kid or grandkid? or a balsa ship model? or do you know anyone who collects stamps or coins? 

Personally, I think Lewis saw the hand writing on the wall and bailed, leaving what is left of the market to Bachmann and USAT. 
I know from reports that TW is not happy with LS. One item is the physical space required in their warehouse to store the stuff.
They had an issue with USA several years ago and dropped them.
LGB went poof, and they have nothing to stock.
MTH is really niche...those who can deal with DCS do so, the rest do not. Add to that 1:32 when everyone else is something else in scale, not surprised on dropping MTH.
The hobby is shrinking rapidly.
I really don't think the Polk action was a "bail".
I am concerned that whoever picks up the pieces will have a long, hard look at what is really marketable, and we will have a whole lot less of it.
I think the days of folks going to the manufacturer's website just after the latest release and saying "Gee, that was nice. What's next?" are gone.
Look at Bachmann. Kader owns them, the money is there...and what did they announce at the nmra show for this year in LS? Ignoring anything Thomas, it was four trolleys in 1:29.
No locos, no new cars.
You go to their website, look in their catalog, they still list the big Porter, which is how many years old? The Meyer, which is more than 5. The industrial 2-6-0, first reviewed on 2007....the Forney which is what, 4 years old, the three truck Shay which was first reviewed in 2006 or 2007.
Repaints on the 4-4-0 and 4-6-0.
The "new" item from last year is priced out of most folks wallets. The MSRP is scary, the street price is what the MSRP was on the LAST 2-8-0.
So, the only LS for them to stock would be Bachmann. And with the imposed MAP, and unable to discount deeper than they do, I would imagine that gets dropped next, or the new guy in Philly changes the MAP.
I bought my last new stuff....just when the K-27 came out, I said that's it.
I'll work off used if I need more.
I ain't paying the price anymore.
TOC


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

most of modellers didn't like any modernize locomotive and rolling stock. This was hard to run an industry if all brands were focus on same historical models. 

I have to agree with you Tony, that most modellers don't like "modern". Or at least (I think) the model railroad hobby has an image that model railroading is only about "old stuff". 

What do most people know about so-called large scale? LGB at Christmas. That's what they know about large scale. (Me, five years ago.) 

Where else do non-railroaders see large scale trains. Let's see....there's...um...well....at the last local train show I went to there was a big circle of huge (320) brass track with a couple pufferbellies and scale people working a gold mine and...um...LGB at Christmas. 

Since my track runs around to the front of the house, contractors, delivery people, etc., mention to me that they "didn't know you could do that". I make sure they see my stuff in back - all diesel (nothing against steam), container cars...modern stuff. Even after a short tour, they leave knowing it's a modern hobby, too. There's a serious disconnect between what people see while waiting for a CSX freight to pass by and what they think they know about our hobby. 

Do we have well-publicized open houses? Regularly? I'll can recommend a particular club's website that shows how to do it right. They have a list of weekend open houses; practically every weekend of the summer. Want to learn about the hobby? Check the list and find an open house near you. Take a look at the variety, ask questions, talk to real people who aren't all geezers like me. Posting on MLS is all well and good, but we need to let the world know that LS exists and it's interesting and it's fun and it's great for families. (Email me here and I'll give you the URL.) 

Do we put together a small but interesting layout at the local train show, with MODERN diesels and MODERN rolling stock? It doesn't have to be big, but think of the quality you've seen in HO and N scales layouts at local train shows. Not a circle of track sitting on astroturf with a few kit buildings. It doesn't have to be major-league quality, but we have to show that Large Scale can be modern and realistic, just as our small scale friends do. 

Makes me wonder if A/C, USAT, MTH ever advertise in a non-modelling magazine, or on cable TV (where the rates are low). Makes me wonder if WE are doing enough to let people know that it's not just your grandfather's hobby. Much as I want nothing to do with "social media", do A/C, USAT, etc., have a presence there? That's where the younger generations are, whether I like it or not. Our hobby has to be there, too. 

JackM


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

I saw a show on HGTV a couple years ago of someone setting up a large RR. It was fun to watch. If only Yard Crashers would do a back yard train!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There was an outfit in Canada called Yaletown Entertainment....filmed my line for, geez, 7 hours. Got 20 minutes on screen out of it. 
Fun to do back when I did that sort of stuff.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

That Paul James garden show that used to be on HGTV featured a GR one time. Not sure why that channel has 'garden' in it's name, they have NO garden shows.


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## HaBi Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

It's a law of nature that a population will expand up to and EXCEED it's food supply, and then it's numbers will crash. Also, for a discretionary income hobby similar to MLS, look at golf. I heard that in a nearby metropolitan area, that several developers did surveys that showed that there was enough demand to support another 2 upper scale residential golf developments - so all 7 of these developers built one with the predictable results. When times were good (ie pre 2008) then everyone (golf and MLS manufacturers) could at least stay open. Now it's the survival of the fittest. 

To have a variety of MLS manufacturers stay around they each need to have enough business to make it worth while, so BUY, BUY, BUY. I admit that the only thing I've bought new lately is replacement batteries and aluminum track so I'm part of the problem. How do we grow the hobby so that it can continue to support a variety of MLS manufacturers? Another similarity between MLS and golf is the average age of participants and need to continually attract younger persons. One way to help with this is to let the younger members of clubs be in leadership positions. Maybe they won't do things the way the "founders" would, but they ARE the FUTURE and without continuing to attract new hobbyists, the "food supply" for the MLS manufacturers will only continue to die away. 

I don't expect either golf or MLS to completely go away in my life time. But I would not be surprised if both have fewer (reasonably priced) choices available in the future. 

the other Rodney 

P.S. I see that NASCAR has also seen a revenue hit lately.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 03 Oct 2013 11:10 AM 
This is very sad news about Aristo Craft will be gone in these 3 months. I have reviewed an email and all points in current forum. But, those are not really made AC going down. I would be still remember that I was so happy to started my G scale collection with AC in 5 years ago. Their product prices were so reasonable and quality was good. As unknown reasons in few years ago, their price line was raised so much. But, AC had no any great new product release. Also, most of modellers didn't like any modernize locomotive and rolling stock. This was hard to run an industry if all brands were focus on same historical models. It would cause a big competition between of them. 

By the way, Aristo Craft have lack of promoted their products with juniors. Some of senior modellers have usually looked down juniors as they called "newbie" or something else. Thus, this is so negative feeling for anyone who want to start G scale. If there have no junior to involved G scale, the industry will collapse so quickly due to no new customer. Those senior modellers have bought many stuffs already. They would look for any special model or more fine detailing model only. This is not enough for business. 

Hope those remain brands of G scale could wake up in next step of business earlier. Otherwise, there maybe another brands will collapse also. Now a days, there few of people like model trains because the young people have many different hobbies for instead. Model brands and modellers have to helping each other to extend this hobby for younger generation. 

Hi Tony, You said it very we'll. Many of the seniors are at or near the end of their buying cycle. Young people have other (non-train) interests. Many hobbies have a limited life cycle and this hobby is on the downside. In the past hobbies (and dealers) did not have to compete with their own used products on eBay etc. Every eBay sale equals a lost sale to some manufacturer. Then too perhaps the increased number of manufacturers exceeded the market potential to support them profitably. Jerry


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

One way to help with this is to let the younger members of clubs be in leadership positions. 
Younger members would rather play with video games. My suspicion is that they are the root cause of lack of interest in modeling. 
(whether it is trains, boats, cars or whatever.)


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Younger members would rather play with video games. 
To a large extent that's true, but that's not necessarily a harbinger of things to come. I work with a bunch of 20-somethings, and they're moving from one job to the next, or one apartment to the next on a fairly routine basis. They may have the interest, but they don't have the time or finances. I'm something of a rarity--a person who stuck with the hobby from childhood. For most of my teen years, really up until my mid-30s, I was one of very few people in my age group active in the hobby. Now, I find myself one of many late 30s, early 40s modelers who are very active in the hobby. It's more a matter of opportunity. Now, our careers are more stable, we've set down roots in one place... all things that lend themselves to at least some level of permanence. And each of us was part of that first "video game generation" that "the old guys" in the train clubs said wrote off as being lost. 

I've been hearing "the hobby will be dead in 10 years" for 30 years now. I'll agree the hobby is shrinking at the moment, but so are others. I think that's more a reaction to a shrinking economic situation than simply a lack of interest. People don't have the money or the opportunity to set down roots for whatever reason, so they're not going to get involved in garden railroading, which inherently requires some degree of available space and finances. I think as the economy improves and people get more stability back in their lives, we'll see things tick upwards again. 

Our "job" at this point is to act as farmer. Plant the seeds and fertilize the garden. That means we need to keep promoting our hobby when and how we can, and--more importantly--we need to be nurturing and present a positive experience for the newcomers (of any age). That's probably the one area we most commonly fall short, _especially_ on forums. This is really where that second "golden rule" comes into play; "if you can't say nothin' nice, don't say anything at all." As a moderator, my attention is frequently called to things like this; a newcomer asks a simple question, and his response isn't an answer to his question (which is often simple enough to answer) but a lecture on why he asked his question in the wrong forum, and if he had only used the "search" function, he would have found his answer. No surprise we never hear from that newcomer ever again. But it's not just on forums; I see this in clubs as well. We'd rather talk to experienced modelers about our latest project than answer basic questions on which track to buy. At shows, we talk amongst ourselves instead of "working the ropes" to answer the crowd's questions. We talk about manufacturers shooting themselves in the foot; we hobbyists have plenty of self-inflicted wounds ourselves. If we want the hobby to grow, we've got to be good ambassadors of it. We can't force people to get involved, but we sure as heck have the power to discourage them from doing so. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It's always been difficult in this gauge to be good ambassadors. 
QC by just about all of them at one point or another...and you field questions about this dead engine, this split gear, this burned up motor. 
You can advise them on a BBT drive...and their eyes glaze over. 
Sometimes the manufacturer steps up to the plate...sometimes that takes 10 years to do. 
Some folks get in the way of quality reform....and kill the process off. 
Seen that too many times. 
Sometimes it's the manufacturer themselves, and/or their self-appointed spokesperson. 
How do you explain gauge issues, both track and wheels? How do you explain a track/wheel gauge from a manufacturer that matches none of their track or wheel gauges? 
How do explain split axle gears, new in the box? 
The manufacturers need to give us something to be ambassadors FOR. 
Side rods that fall off......you might need to tighten the siderod bolts. Really? 
Wheels that fall off..but we won't say anything. 
Instead of getting some pressure on the manufacturers to fix something, a concerted holding of feet to the fire by all hobbyists in the gauge....but then we get "bashing" comments, and I ain't interested any longer. 
As long as we keep getting garbage QC out of PRC, and manufacturer's shills who stop all discussion, I'm not going to advocate the gauge to anyone. 
As far as I am concerned, we have exactly what we asked for. Cheap, no QC, no addressing the issues. 
Now you folks have nothing. 
Very happy for you now that you are where you wanted to be. 
TOC


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

While the video games have killed a lot of the hobbies we grew up doing, the Large Scale (Garden Rail Road) hobby has for the most part always been an adult hobby. I really believe forums like this have hurt the hobby as much as it has been a help. Yes, the forums have been a great help to those that bought trains and had problems with the gearboxes and the axles etc. But how many potential buyers have been scared off by all the posts stating the multitude of problems with the various trains available. Just look at the Bachmann line. For years this website and most other LS sites were flooded with complaints and horror stories about the early Steam Engine's gear boxes failing and the Shays truck falling apart. But now they have brass gears and the Shay's trucks are made of better material, yet there is very little if any said about Bachmann's better quality. We tend to lean towards the negative.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann's quality certainly got better after Kader took over, they got rid of JP Morgan Asia's "money at all costs" mind set and actually started moving towards improving the line. The new BBT-ized Annies being the best example, the Lil Big Hauler line shows they are trying to engage the kid generation beyond the Thomas level. I just wish they made them a bit more detailed, then they would have a wider appeal among adults.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 10 Oct 2013 11:56 AM 
While the video games have killed a lot of the hobbies we grew up doing, the Large Scale (Garden Rail Road) hobby has for the most part always been an adult hobby. I really believe forums like this have hurt the hobby as much as it has been a help. Yes, the forums have been a great help to those that bought trains and had problems with the gearboxes and the axles etc. But how many potential buyers have been scared off by all the posts stating the multitude of problems with the various trains available. Just look at the Bachmann line. For years this website and most other LS sites were flooded with complaints and horror stories about the early Steam Engine's gear boxes failing and the Shays truck falling apart. But now they have brass gears and the Shay's trucks are made of better material, yet there is very little if any said about Bachmann's better quality. We tend to lean towards the negative. 
There is a reason for all of that. If any of the manufacturers would listen, and act, or, glory be, actually have some QC on the build line (or even the design?), folks would not have to go to forums like this for help.
Often the manufacturers themselves create this problem.
You remember the first 4 versions of the Big Hauler? They would not listen to any comment on problems. I was even told, by the Great Howard himself, they the Factory in PRC had one running on a loop for 10,000 hours with no problems. Big difference between that and starting stopping, backing, hauling a bunch of cars up and down 4% grades.

How much denial was there on gauge issues by any of them? How about basic denial of spinning wheels on tapered axles? "We've never seen that before. We've never had any reports of that", yet, with the AlGore Internet, we find hundreds of folks with the same problem who were told the same thing.
We have brass gears for the 2-8-0...took 10 freaking years and two other suppliers making parts for them to do anything about it.
The Shay trucks are different housings...but the guts are identical, and they still have the worm lock issue on downgrades they have always had.
The Great Howard himself told me why the housings failed. Yet, have they eliminated that issue?
Spotting that plastics issue is fairly easy. When plastic breaks, it should be hard to do so, with a fogged appearance to the parting when it fails. When you see a break that is very shiny, like obsidian, there is a plastic issue.
I just did two 2-8-0 tender truck repairs in the last couple of weeks, both failures were shiny.
Bachmann, as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Kader, can't get the plastics right?

I was the first to report the Shay truck failure issue. I was immediately accused of using oil that was not plastic compatible. I read them the label on the LaBelle Plastic Compatible Oiler bottle and stopped that in it's tracks.

Why deny? Why not have someone take these reports and compile them for the manufacturer to send off to the PRC factory and get this stopped?
How long did it take to start the move from non-keyed tapered axles and wheels to "D" shape or splined?
Why?

Since the manufacturers won't listen or act (it seems), all the poor suckers who bought the stuff can do is come to these forums.
Some of us spent considerable time generating fixes for folks to be able to do in the field...and it was a continual stream of "bashing" comments, to the point most don't even bother anymore.

I could tell you stories.
The manufacturers seem to go out of their way to kill off those who report the issue, and especially those who would generate fixes.
Just to show you how badly they want to hide any possible bad press, any fixes I did could never be referred to as "fixes". ALWAYS as a "procedure".
Whose feelings were we trying to protect?

I would never encourage anyone to get into LS with all the bullpoop we have to go through.
All the screaming meemees who shout you down, apparently on command from the manufacturers......"Oh, it hurts the business".
HORSE MANURE. The QC and poor design issues hurt the business and the hobby.
What kills the manufacturers off is fingers in their ears, head stuck in the sand, humming loudly to avoid any and all input.

TOC


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

It's always been difficult in this gauge to be good ambassadors 
Dave, 
If you'll forgive my words, I'd like to suggest that you, in your curmudgeonly fashion, are part of the problem. 
You have staunchly resisted the NMRA trying to help us with standards for wheels, couplers and the rest, and stirred up a whole lot of folks to also resist them. What does your signature say? 

Long-time non-member nmra 

You may not like the way they go about things, but they did bring order to HO scale. Almost every manufacturer now has "NMRA" compatible locos, with decoders and couplers that mate easily. Yes, I know it isn't 100%, but it sure is a lot better than our mishmash. 

There is no other trade group that a manufacturer can turn to for advice. Would you suggest they ask one individual instead? 

A few years ago the NMRA came to us to ask us to help standardize couplers. The proponent had Aristo and USAT trains that wouldn't couple, so he (quite rightly) thought a "standard" would help. Unfortunately, he didn't realize how many different scales we were involved with, so he got shouted down and went away. A great opportunity missed. 

Before that, there was the naming debacle. NMRA proposed to help us understand what we were buying by using "F" scale (1:20.3), "G" (1:22.5), "A" scale (1:29, for 'American' if I remember correctly,) and "T" (1:13.7 for Thirteenth scale.) #1 scale (1:32) was already in use. 
It is interesting that some of the long-time modelers, who had been modeling in other scales before gauge 1 came along, picked up on the F and regularly use NMRA-style "Fn3" for our 3' gauge models on g-1 track. Very sensible and perfectly understandable to anyone in HOn3 or similar. 

Because of fervent opposition, from you and a few others, we (the large scale community) have never given NMRA a chance to bring some order to our madness. Perhaps it is time to try ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

As much as Dave may live up to his nickname, I would be hard pressed to blame him for the NMRA's disinterest in the scale(s). I'm also in another scale that the NMRA could give a shoot about, Z scale. 

Basically the G1MRA standards have been adopted by the NMRA with some "extra slop" that grandfathers in USAT and Aristo's and LGB's consistent undergauge back to back and other ills. 

The only ray of hope came recently from Kevin Strong's involvement, and where the NMRA stands today is good enough for me now, thanks largely, in my opinion, to Kevin. 

Sometimes just a few people joining and beating their heads against the wall can make changes. 

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I would be hard pressed to blame him for the NMRA's disinterest in the scale 
Greg, my point is that, on the two occasions that I know of, when the NMRA has expressed interest in our scale they were soundly ridiculed and beaten back by some people (including Dave) who seem to think we have nothing to gain from listening to them - though they wanted to listen to us. 

the G1MRA standards have been adopted by the NMRA with some "extra slop" 
Yes, and how many serious, reasoned inputs did they get from the large scale community? More than there were folk telling them to 'get lost' ? This is a very raucous bunch whenever NMRA is mentioned.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 11 Oct 2013 02:26 PM 
I would be hard pressed to blame him for the NMRA's disinterest in the scale 
Greg, my point is that, on the two occasions that I know of, when the NMRA has expressed interest in our scale they were soundly ridiculed and beaten back by some people (including Dave) who seem to think we have nothing to gain from listening to them - though they wanted to listen to us. 

the G1MRA standards have been adopted by the NMRA with some "extra slop" 
Yes, and how many serious, reasoned inputs did they get from the large scale community? More than there were folk telling them to 'get lost' ? This is a very raucous bunch whenever NMRA is mentioned. 
Holy.
Smokes.

Did you know their first attempt was 5 different standards for the 5 different main scales?
From you post, you must have missed that.
Yeah, I fought them tooth and nail.
You have a 1:20 standard pike, looked like your 1:29 stuff would be hard pressed to accommodate the switches.
Then, the next go-round was all new and DIFFERENT than the G1MRA standards in use by, oh, BBT, Accucraft, Llagas, Sierra Valley, Sunset Valley... you know, the folks that made stuff that worked out of the box.

Yeah, I fought that.
Spent a whole lot of time on the phone with the head of the standards committee.
I KNOW from those discussions who was pushing it, and as far as I am concerned, that person can fall off the end of the dock.
We FINALLY get them to accept the G1MRA standards...and they futz around with those anyway.
Couplers.
Geez Maneez.
So, Bachmann, Lionel, Delton, Aristo Classic, USA...all have the same height and work together.
But, oh, no...as in Half 0, we have to bring in the most non-prototypical couple ever devised next to a hook and loop as a "standard"?
You're kidding.
I know when they changed the 2-rail 0 standards...switches, points, tread thickness....and coupler height. I use the old height, as all my old equipment is set to that.
Remember RP-25? You know they have a new Recommended Practice?
I asked the HoSC why.
Well, in Half 0, seems some manufacturers in The Orient have come out with more to-scale wheels. So, they changed it.
Really?
You're the guys who write the standards, and instead of enforcing them, you simply roll over and use the new stuff?

It was a long, hard fight. We needed to keep what we have. The only reason to change it was arrogance...."We are the nmra..we create the standards everybody uses".
You absolutely have no idea what they had planned for us and what we went through to get the majority of the BS stopped.
To have you say what you are saying is ignorant and repulsive.
You don't know, but you have to throw out a grenade anyway.
Thanks.

Makes working for the good of the hobby so freaking rewarding.

TOC


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

To have you say what you are saying is ignorant and repulsive 
Dave, 
I don't think what I am suggesting is ignorant. I've been in model railroading for 60 years - something must have stuck. 

If you find it repulsive, I have no idea why. Yes, you clearly had a lot of arguments with NMRA - I've heard about most of them over the years. But, IMHO, you are acting like our wonderful Tea Party in Congress: "it's my way or get lost". Polite society means occasional compromise for the common good. Your strongly-held and strongly-expressed opinions tend to drown the more moderate folk. 

To make this discussion a bit more practical (though it seems to be off at a tangent, and if the Moderator wishes I will stop,) let me comment on this: 
You have a 1:20 standard pike, looked like your 1:29 stuff would be hard pressed to accommodate the switches 
It is impossible to accommodate ALL the equipment out there. My local friend has just built a new loop wide enough to accommodate my big Fn3 Mikados. His LGB and Aristo swiches aren't set up for my semi-fine-scale wheels, so we've already started the discussion about what "standards" he is going to follow. 
Why would anyone (you included) want to accommodate modern std gauge 1/29th scale trains on a layout designed for 1:20 narrow gauge? How many SP Daylights have you run on your pike? I'll bet the LGB one will work fine, but what about a 1:32nd scale version? 

So what is wrong with separate standards for different scales? 

Why do you get so mad about this stuff?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 13 Oct 2013 01:24 PM 
To have you say what you are saying is ignorant and repulsive 
Dave, 
I don't think what I am suggesting is ignorant. I've been in model railroading for 60 years - something must have stuck. 

If you find it repulsive, I have no idea why. Yes, you clearly had a lot of arguments with NMRA - I've heard about most of them over the years. But, IMHO, you are acting like our wonderful Tea Party in Congress: "it's my way or get lost". Polite society means occasional compromise for the common good. Your strongly-held and strongly-expressed opinions tend to drown the more moderate folk. 

To make this discussion a bit more practical (though it seems to be off at a tangent, and if the Moderator wishes I will stop,) let me comment on this: 
You have a 1:20 standard pike, looked like your 1:29 stuff would be hard pressed to accommodate the switches 
It is impossible to accommodate ALL the equipment out there. My local friend has just built a new loop wide enough to accommodate my big Fn3 Mikados. His LGB and Aristo swiches aren't set up for my semi-fine-scale wheels, so we've already started the discussion about what "standards" he is going to follow. 
Why would anyone (you included) want to accommodate modern std gauge 1/29th scale trains on a layout designed for 1:20 narrow gauge? How many SP Daylights have you run on your pike? I'll bet the LGB one will work fine, but what about a 1:32nd scale version? 

So what is wrong with separate standards for different scales? 

Why do you get so mad about this stuff? Who's mad?
What you are suggesting is, in fact, ignorant.
You're the one who dragged the nmra and my comments on them into this, aren't you?
We had G1MRA. The nmra wanted to create their own standards (I guess they couldn't feel "fulfilled" unless they created it), which looked like it was going to .....well, mess things up.
Why do you need to bring political ranting in to this thread?
It has never been about me or my way, rather about the johnny-come-lately nmra, who couldn't give a rat's hindquarters about LS for what, 35 years? Those who actually CARED about standards went to the only place that offered them....G1MRA.
nmra wants to change all of that, and not incorporate existing standards, and we got then, as now, ignoramuses who accused myself and others of hating standards and not wanting any standards.
First, none of those complainers could read.
Second, none of them had the comprehension skills of a gnat.
Third, they had no clue about standards....for suddenly, after years and years (decades?) of blissful ignorance, where those who did care used G1MRA to make the stuff work for them, the ignorant ones suddenly had to have standards.
We had standards.
Your post continues to be ignorant.
And your lack of any comprehension, and to start yelling about this again, is repulsive.

What's wrong with different standards for different scales?
As small as LS is overall and you have to ask?

What we had worked. The nmra finally incorporated it...and you have the audacity to tell me I'm against standards and the nmra?
" Dave, 
If you'll forgive my words, I'd like to suggest that you, in your curmudgeonly fashion, are part of the problem. 
You have staunchly resisted the NMRA trying to help us with standards for wheels, couplers and the rest, and stirred up a whole lot of folks to also resist them. What does your signature say?"
Reprehensible.

G1MRA, and the freaking manufacturers wouldn't even follow that.
Even the Great Polk once said there are no standards......and I pointed out what we've all been using.

" You may not like the way they go about things, but they did bring order to HO scale. Almost every manufacturer now has "NMRA" compatible locos, with decoders and couplers that mate easily. Yes, I know it isn't 100%, but it sure is a lot better than our mishmash. 

There is no other trade group that a manufacturer can turn to for advice. Would you suggest they ask one individual instead? 

A few years ago the NMRA came to us to ask us to help standardize couplers. The proponent had Aristo and USAT trains that wouldn't couple, so he (quite rightly) thought a "standard" would help. Unfortunately, he didn't realize how many different scales we were involved with, so he got shouted down and went away. A great opportunity missed. 

Before that, there was the naming debacle. NMRA proposed to help us understand what we were buying by using "F" scale (1:20.3), "G" (1:22.5), "A" scale (1:29, for 'American' if I remember correctly,) and "T" (1:13.7 for Thirteenth scale.) #1 scale (1:32) was already in use. 
It is interesting that some of the long-time modelers, who had been modeling in other scales before gauge 1 came along, picked up on the F and regularly use NMRA-style "Fn3" for our 3' gauge models on g-1 track. Very sensible and perfectly understandable to anyone in HOn3 or similar. 

Because of fervent opposition, from you and a few others, we (the large scale community) have never given NMRA a chance to bring some order to our madness. Perhaps it is time to try ? "


Who cares? I, for one, never wanted to be in "F-ing scale" 
What ever happened to 1:29, 1:20.3, 1:24? And specify narrow?
Worked for us in LS for a lot of years.
So, the nmra, to feel good?, comes up with nomenclature that's supposed to make everything right?

Ignorant.
I'm done talking to you.
You haven't got a clue, you'd just as soon enter into bashing than be constructive, so go do it by yourself.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Pete, I had some problems running my Accucraft Ks (27 and 28) through my Aristo wide radius switches. I replaced them with the LGB 18000 series switches. These are about 16' diameter. No problems with the 18000s. Jim and I are using the 18000s at our Colvin run Christmas show along with Aristo wide radius curves (10' diameter). No problems. Chuck


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Who cares? I, for one, never wanted to be in "F-ing scale" 
"Methinks thou doth protest too much." 
[Which is a garbled quote from Hamlet. But very appropriate.]


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## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

The new Aristo-Craft Kuppler (body mount style), which perhaps never went into production, was going to solve all our coupler problems, right? 

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/LS Coupler Technical Report.pdf


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete: A simple comment: 

Making different standards for different scales in 45mm gauge hurts the hobby, and would cause all kinds of problems of interoperability, not to mention give so much work to the NMRA that it would never get done. Those are clearly understood facts. 

I can't see why you would espouse such a view unless you don't care about anyone other than yourself. 

If I'm wrong in that statement, please correct me with LOGIC, FACTS, and INFORMATION. i.e. why separate standards would help the hobby and enable the NMRA to get them done faster than a single standard. 

(n.b. there are more than one standard for 45mm, there are the "large scale", and the fine scale, etc.) 

Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Kalamazoo is gone. 
Delton is gone. 
LGB is gone. 
Aristo-Craft is going. 
 
No train manufacturer (that I know of) has been bothering with any forum other than their own for years. 
 
1:32, 1:29, 1:26, 1:24, 1:22.5, 1:20.3 or whatever - I have something in each and I mix & match as appeals to me. 
 
Who is it who is supposed to be listening or is left to care? 
 
NMRA National Model Railroad Association? I respect them but they don't actually manufacture anything. 
 
No disrespect but perhaps the loser in large scale are those who were never happy with what the manufacturers did for them. 
 
While not a winner, perhaps those who still have a happy future are the ones who never concerned themselves with "model railroading" but instead grew up with toy trains running around the Christmas Tree. 
 
I thought the topic was Polk's Closing? 
 
With regard to that I think that thanks to the 80 years the Polk's have been providing toys, those of us who enjoy playing with toy trains have many happy years ahead playing with our Aristo-Craft (or Kalamazoo or Delton or LGB or New Bright or Bachmann or Accucraft or Hartland or MTH) toys. 
 
Your glasses may be half empty but mine is half full. 
 
The fact is that I expect most of my Aristo-Craft toys to outlive me by many years. 
 
Many of my toys have already outlived their previous owner(s). 
 
To me that is what a "hobby" should be all about. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

USAT trains is here, Bachmann is here, AML is here. All have made new models recently in 1:29 

Accucraft is making 1:20.3 and 1:32. MTH has announced the F units in 1:32. 

Clearly THEY listened. 

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

right? 
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandr...Report.pdf 
Good to see NMRA addressed the coupler issue even after they got such a cold reception here. 

If I'm wrong in that statement, please correct me with LOGIC, FACTS, and INFORMATION. i.e. why separate standards would help the hobby and enable the NMRA to get them done faster than a single standard. (n.b. there are more than one standard for 45mm, there are the "large scale", and the fine scale, etc.) 
Greg, 
When did I ever use less than logic or facts? I don't get all emotional about this stuff. 

To get back to the point . . I was making your point, that there is more than one standard, and there needs to be "fine scale" and "coarse scale", as G1MRA used to put it - they now call it "fine gauge" and "standard gauge". You won't get my RY Models equipment to run through an LGB switch. 
[G1MRA has put the standards behind a password (information) though I can't think why. They are also here:
www-dot-markwoodwheels-dot-co-dot-uk/wheels/scalesandstandards.htm ] 
Even the coupler standards referenced above have 2 standards for height and 3 standards for mating couplers. Again, (fact) you won't easily get an Accucraft 1/32nd coupler to mate with an Accu 1/20th coupler. Though it can be done it requires the old 0-5-0 switcher and they have to be the same height. 

Part of our problem is these myriad scales. The original NMRA coupler discussion went all over the place, and then we discovered the poor guy just wanted to couple his 1/29th Aristo stuff to his 1/29th USAT stuff. If he'd said that up front, or if we'd accept that a 1/29th standard gauge railroad doesn't have to have the same coupler height as my 1/20th EBT stuff, then it might have been a less acrimonious discussion. 
Isn't that logical?


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

So how about starting a new thread to debate the merits of NMRA standards? 


Meanwhile, this is an interesting bit of info from Aristorcraft: http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=20839 
Seems that there is hope yet for some products, pity it won't have their name on it though.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Rick you need to google My Large Scale NMRA Standards. This subject has been beat to death many times before.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

Posted By rlvette on 14 Oct 2013 05:50 PM 
Rick you need to google My Large Scale NMRA Standards. This subject has been beat to death many times before. 
LOL - that wasn't my point. I was pointing out on how 'off track' this thread has now become....


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By RickV on 14 Oct 2013 07:12 PM 
Posted By rlvette on 14 Oct 2013 05:50 PM 
Rick you need to google My Large Scale NMRA Standards. This subject has been beat to death many times before. 
LOL - that wasn't my point. I was pointing out on how 'off track' this thread has now become.... 
Done purposefully, don't you think?
Removes the focus on Aristo going away.


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Curmudgeon, 
Thats what happens when threads go long enough. Then tend to wander from what they originally were. 
LAO


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Isn't the only one...and some have deep sixed a lot earlier! 

Subject line and header for Trainworld's e-mail today: 

We Have Aristo Craft Product! Stock Up Now Before It Runs Out... 

Guess it's ok to say it now ….


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Tough economic times have certainly taken their toll on the hobby/leisure/discretionary funds, industries. Pick anything people do for fun in their free time [airplanes, sports cars, power/sail boats, campers, motorcycles/four wheelers, model trains/planes/cars...you name it] and go view their forums and I suspect many people there are worried about or predicting the end of their hobbies for evermore because suppliers are succumbing to the pressures of riding out this continuing recession. 
Sorry to see Aristo is the most recent casualty in our hobby, I have a lot of their products, very happy with them, and hoped to buy more of them in the future. Alas, there may be a gap in that supply chain before someone else picks up the slack. But someone WILL pick up the slack on at least some of their best products I'd be willing to bet. 
People are looking for 'bang for their leisure buck' these days and large scale trains can seem like a big investment to take the plunge in but if properly marketed could seem like lot's of 'smiles per gallon'. The hobby does seem to be largely dominated by an aging populous for now. Younger folks are scrimping just to move out of their parent's home or their first apartments and in to a starter home. Those folks are focused on building their first nest, stocking it with the requisite furniture and audio/video/computer toys and funding the nursery of the next generation. That demographic isn't the one to go after right now to perpetuate the large scale train hobby. Maybe only on the cheapest toy train level at best. Manufacturers should be wooing the Boomers and Gen-xers who may actually HAVE a home they are settled in, and maybe even own more of it than the bank does and looking for something new to add to their enjoyment of their home and share with their children, neighbors and grandkids. 
There was a British program that Ralph Brades turned me on to some while ago; Mark Found - The Garden Railway. Google it. It was like one of those HGTV shows about how easy it was to build a garden model railway in your backyard. If something like that could be run in this country I suspect it would get a lot of people thinking that building a garden RR might be something in the reach of the average Joe and not the aging millionaire. A television show like that one coupled with the availability of affordable starter sets like the venerable Bachmann Big Hauler could go along way to draw new hobbyists in to our favorite hobby, increase overall demand for our favorite toys and sustain the manufacturers of our hobby's products.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

not to change topics here, but I watched the first episode of Mark Found - The Garden Rail series and that was great. I cant wait to watch them all.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Could it be a whole new and improved brand could appear if the molds become available? 


Would NMRA standards if applied to Large Scale drive up the price of the products? 

JJ


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## bicyclexc (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't like it when people just blame the economy outright. There is much more too it than that, sure people have less money to spend on an aggregate level and fewer people like modeling trains, but Polks missed the boat in their later years. I hear too much about "the economy this" or "the economy that", I hate to break it to everyone, but the economy is no longer 'bad', the economy has shifted, and this is now the new normal, get used to it. We have pouted about how hard everything is for about 5 years now, now lets move on and do what needs to be done. It is this perspective and spirit that was lacking at Polks, with an old man in retirement and sons who weren't very keen on running a model train business. With that situation, nobody was willing to make the drastic adaptations necessary to keep the company competitive and profitable. It is very much a good example of the economy in general, as many older businesses with entrenched interests have failed to make a transition to modern times. Its a competitive world out there, and it gets more competitive every day with China, India and wait for it, Africa entering the world manufacturing sphere. Polks was content with riding out the business model he had till it failed, not in keeping it current and successful in the long run. 

I agree with the premise that our hobby is not as expensive as some think it is. Sure, an accucraft challenger or dryfus hudson IS expensive, but that is not all that our hobby has to offer. Like any other passtime, there is expensive equipment and there is accessible equipment, and even that is all about perspective. I got an LGB caboose on ebay 2 months ago for $20, and I'm still playing with it, trying to figure out what I want to make out of it. For $20 I've been engaged and my mind has been challenged for 2 months. Dang, that's a deal. Eventually it'll be done and I'll get the satisfaction of watching it go around.

Eventually people (hopefully my generation) will realize that its what brings us together that makes us happy, not what we own. A garden railroad can being together a house, a block, whole neighborhood or town, or even as in Marty's layout, just about the whole country. That is powerful and why others can come, and will come. Back to work on the caboose...


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By bicyclexc on 09 Nov 2013 03:40 PM 
I don't like it when people just blame the economy outright. There is much more too it than that, sure people have less money to spend on an aggregate level and fewer people like modeling trains, but Polks missed the boat in their later years. I hear too much about "the economy this" or "the economy that", I hate to break it to everyone, but the economy is no longer 'bad', the economy has shifted, and this is now the new normal, get used to it. We have pouted about how hard everything is for about 5 years now, now lets move on and do what needs to be done. It is this perspective and spirit that was lacking at Polks, with an old man in retirement and sons who weren't very keen on running a model train business. With that situation, nobody was willing to make the drastic adaptations necessary to keep the company competitive and profitable. It is very much a good example of the economy in general, as many older businesses with entrenched interests have failed to make a transition to modern times. Its a competitive world out there, and it gets more competitive every day with China, India and wait for it, Africa entering the world manufacturing sphere. Polks was content with riding out the business model he had till it failed, not in keeping it current and successful in the long run. 

I agree with the premise that our hobby is not as expensive as some think it is. Sure, an accucraft challenger or dryfus hudson IS expensive, but that is not all that our hobby has to offer. Like any other passtime, there is expensive equipment and there is accessible equipment, and even that is all about perspective. I got an LGB caboose on ebay 2 months ago for $20, and I'm still playing with it, trying to figure out what I want to make out of it. For $20 I've been engaged and my mind has been challenged for 2 months. Dang, that's a deal. Eventually it'll be done and I'll get the satisfaction of watching it go around.

Eventually people (hopefully my generation) will realize that its what brings us together that makes us happy, not what we own. A garden railroad can being together a house, a block, whole neighborhood or town, or even as in Marty's layout, just about the whole country. That is powerful and why others can come, and will come. Back to work on the caboose...

Yeah, we had a snicker or two reading the Polk "explanation"...blaming everyone it seems.
If you want to see thrashing around trying to find something that will sell....look at Bachmann.
This year's announcement at the nmra convention totalled.....not counting Toby....4 trolleys...in 1:29.
I see and hear several reasons....but when you don't announce even any repaints in 1:22.5, Little Bug Mauler, or 1:20.....something ain't right.
You get into more detail and adherence to scale, it does get expensive.
Used to be, it had to be brass to be expensive...but last year, again, Bachmann broke the mold with the C-19, with an MSRP entering the brass pricing range.
Quality, the result of design, engineering and quality control, coupled to manufacturers who care, is really what the hobby needs, far more than some oddball scale trolley cars.
I think Polk's problem there was money. Get it done the cheapest. Then there was not enough to fix it all.
With the roller coaster LGB has been on, the loss of the current ownership at Aristo, their abandonment of the 1:24 Delton Line several years ago, Ro not making much new, if any....going to be an interesting year...add to that, by this time next year, most of us won't have any money anyway.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I just found out from Hans at Gold Coast that he's dropping all his individual cars of the Lil Big Hauler line because they are not selling. He pointed out two big errors Bmann made, one that stan dard Bmann steel wheels cannot be swapped into them, the mounts are too narrow, and the other the hook/loop couplers are Thomas high and unlike the Thomas line no adapters were ever provided so they are out of box completed incompatible with anything other than the Thomas line. 

The worst part is that Bmann seems completely unaware of both of these issues despite Hans demonstration to the reps about the wheels and I personally explained the coupler issue to them at the last SWGRS. 

So even today serious basics errors still get made even by the biggest. I am convinced the suits in China mindset is that these would be used only by children and therefore no thought whatsoever was given to making them compatible with everything else in the large scale universe 
So now given that they seam to be failures I doubt they will be back once the current run is sold off, and that is a dam shame, because its they are exactly what is needed to get folks interested, inexpensive and easily accessible. Beautiful as it is, a big expensive C19 is not going to get cash strapped newbies interested.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that info Vic. What needless mistakes on Bachmann's end.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

I think it's dumb on Bachmann's part. Any entry level range should at least be a 'feasible' scale model even if not a true prototype. A product range for beginners entering the hobby while also serving cheap creative bashing projects. An easy upgrade to metal wheels is an extra sale for Bachmann and a better operating model but not a simple proposition. Compatible couplers would let those with starter sets expand into the hobby with no concern. It is an obvious migration path once the bug has bitten but with comparability issues as designed by Bachmann it can only hinder and confuse the end user's possibilities, therefore sales. 
Deliberately 'dumbing down' an entry product line to hold ransom on more premium lines is daft. Ultimately it's the consumers choice where they find value, not Bachmann's. 
The irony being that if 'Little Big Hauler' sales fail they will eventually be discounted to even cheaper 'bash fodder' rather than represent a logical place to begin a hobby that can easily expand to better things. 


Andrew


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## grsman (Apr 24, 2012)

Posted By vsmith on 09 Nov 2013 05:42 PM 
I just found out from Hans at Gold Coast that he's dropping all his individual cars of the Lil Big Hauler line because they are not selling. He pointed out two big errors Bmann made, one that stan dard Bmann steel wheels cannot be swapped into them, the mounts are too narrow, and the other the hook/loop couplers are Thomas high and unlike the Thomas line no adapters were ever provided so they are out of box completed incompatible with anything other than the Thomas line. 

The worst part is that Bmann seems completely unaware of both of these issues despite Hans demonstration to the reps about the wheels and I personally explained the coupler issue to them at the last SWGRS. 

There are adapters for the Lil Big Haulers. Al Kramer sells them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BACHMANN-CO...1209049241

I would guess there are others. Adding adapters to a basic starter set is an added expense for something that would be seldom used by the type of person buying these sets.
Things are tough enough without reducing the supplier's margin any more.

Tom


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew, at least with the Thomas line adapters are provided but to not provide them to the LBH lineup is pretty short sighted considering the Thomas adapters work on them with no trouble.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom to add set of 1/2cent adaptors in the LBH sets would be a negligible added cost and would make the line more appealing to more mainstream modellers, to have to spend more thru an outside source is a real turnoff. Bmann seams to have no problem with adding them in the Thomas line. 

I know from discussions at the NNGC with one of the guys from Bmann who developed the LBH line that they did want something completely interchangeable with other LS like LGB, but when dealing with the suits in China some things got lost (or ignored ) 
BTW even though Bmann steel wheels cannot be swapped into them, I am using LGB ball bearing wheelsets which swap right in. Of course that puts me in the stupid situation of my wheels being more valuable than the silly car itself.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah Vic, I had a play with the adapters and they will let you set-up the couplers of Li'l Big Hauler and Thomas cars to the lower Bachmann Big Hauler Hook n' Loop (LGB style) and Bachmann knuckle coupler. Big Hauler couplers are set low for better truck mounted operation around tight curves and same height compatibility as 1:22.5 LGB. 
Interestingly a Thomas car with a high mounted knuckle coupler is a better height match with 1:20.3 knuckle couplers. A Thomas car with adapters looks crap with the couplers at ankle height 
Considering all, Bachmann have probably done the best thing I guess. Although a lack of supplied adapters with LBH will restrict the use of Big Hauler, LGB and HLW but matches the Thomas range.


The coupler adapters don't seem to be listed as available parts on the Bachmann website. (unless they have the wrong photograph). If the single adapter item listed there is actually the coupler adapter, they are $2 each and only enough for 5 cars are available per order so they are not really considered an item that people may need. 
Al Kramer only has Thomas coupler adapters from the Thomas and Percy sets he busts up. 

I thought some standard 31mm Bachmann wheels on an Emily coach would make a 'passable' squat narrow gauge coach. The axle holes in the metal on the Emily coach were smaller than standard Bachmann axles. Not a big deal to modify but one would expect them to be the same. 

Vic, I noticed the LBH combine which you bashed into an interesting little railbus is not available separately. Only in sets. Everything else is available separately except an item that has good bashing potential. 

Andrew


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Severely strayed from Teddy Bear land. 

Andrew


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Andrew yes, the combine is only available in the set, as is the boxcar and gondola in the freight set. I got a second combine from Al Kramer from a broken up set and today I just saw on Ebay the freight train set from Kramer, its minus the track and powerpack and was priced so low ($77) I may not be able to resist.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Posted By bicyclexc on 09 Nov 2013 03:40 PM 
I don't like it when people just blame the economy outright. There is much more too it than that, sure people have less money to spend on an aggregate level and fewer people like modeling trains, but Polks missed the boat in their later years. I hear too much about "the economy this" or "the economy that", I hate to break it to everyone, but the economy is no longer 'bad', the economy has shifted, and this is now the new normal, get used to it. We have pouted about how hard everything is for about 5 years now, now lets move on and do what needs to be done... 



Are you f--kin' shi--ing me? The economy sucks!! Has sucked, since summer of 2007, that's when the happy bubble days flew off the rails and is showing minimal improvement to Main St. USA. Don't know what planet you're living on and I'm glad you're happy with the "new normal" but....You can't make excuses for it. Maybe you can armchair quarterback why Aristo has gone tits up but I personally don't know what kind of things they had to deal with in their internal organization, new healthcare requirements, ongoing/increasing overhead, old inventory, rising taxes, etc., etc, and trying to predict what buyers might actually throw money at in these lean times. 12 million people are unemployed, 4 million people long term,, according to the BLS [which i'm sure is a conservative figure], are over two years unemployed. These people are trying to figure out how to keep their homes, cars, and now pay for their increased health insurance bills since the ACA was passed. They're not thinking of building garden railways. If you don't think that hasn't played a MAJOR part in the atrophy of our hobby and other hobbies then...


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya.... 

I have a new motto... 

Auto insurance.. 
.....manditory 
Health Care insurance... 
Manditory 

Jobs - income..... 

......Optional 




D


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Got tracking number on track ordered at 50% off.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I apologize [sort of] for my views. I was born in '62. I remember when my family and friend's families were all employed making steel, televisions, automobiles, jet planes, computers, electronic devices, paper, rocket parts, weapons. To make a long story short...were all employed making the best things in the world, investing for their retirements and sending their kids to college to hopefully do better than they did in their lifetimes. All of those industries have left the US. Gone. 
That said, it appears the smart money these days is teaching your kids how to be a plumber, electrician, stock broker, investment banker, doctor, nurse, or some kind of health care administrator. All other career choices pale in comparison if you wish them to have a secure life. 
This has gotten WAY off topic. 
Sorry Aristo has announced their demise. 
I hope the other major players will buy up the best of Aristo products and sell it. The market is still there. And as always in a free market, if there is a void worth filling I hope other people will sense a market opportunity.


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## RickV (May 25, 2012)

The US is not the only market that Aristo has - there are other countries that they sell stuff to including those that don't have the same economic pressures and problems as the US. 

It should also be noted that the US dollar has been significantly lower against a lot of these countries which has meant that for people like me here in Australia, your stuff in the US has been pretty cheap especially with our dollar being valued higher than yours for a substantial period. This for me has meant a substantial increase in spending on LS trains for the past two years the vast majority of which was Aristocraft products.


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## [email protected] Hobbyworks (Jul 1, 2014)

I was involved in the hobby business here in Canada for over a decade at the retail level and several decades as a consumer and saw the end emerging for the mom and pop stores long ago. It was symbolized by the grim reality of how many of our best customers' funerals we had attended over the past few years. Their sad passing only symbolized the downturn in interest in traditional hobbies and crafts in general. We all saw the passing of the craftsman generation a few decades ago and now those involved in hobby trains, plastic models and their like are also slowly fading away. Polk's demise was only the low point in a dismal future outlook as the current generation flees the traditional hobbies for electronic dalliances. Until that day that this is all no more you'll find me in my hobby room lovingly working on my current model, and you can call it quits when you pry my Aztek airbrush from my cold dead hand...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Dude, don't start your "forum career" with reviving a post many months old.

Google "forum etiquette", read an article.... go to the beginners forum and introduce yourself.

Greg


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Dude, don't start your "forum career" with reviving a post many months old.
> 
> Google "forum etiquette", read an article.... go to the beginners forum and introduce yourself.
> 
> Greg


Speaking of forum etiquette..Taeuss' post wasnt really worthy of a rude reply..seven months is within the grace period for reasonably reviving a thread IMO..
If it was over a year old, then sure, but seven months isnt really that old..(its subjective I know..) 
but considering:
1. seven months isnt unreasonably old.
2. It was his first post.
3. it was on topic. (I dont happen to agree with his opinion of the state of the hobby, but that's irrelevant! 
but take all those things combined, and he should get a pass on this one..

Scot


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope, it was not a rude reply. Informative, and this is not the only forum in the world.

Seven months is unreasonably old, especially since the thread is about Aristo closing it's doors specifically... 

My recommendation stands, if you are starting out on a forum, it would be good to know how to act, and there are TONS of forum etiquette suggestions on the web AND ON THIS SITE. 

If you are a beginner, why not post in the beginner forum as suggested?

Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

It is not our position to critique what a member decides to comment on. The fact that a thread is 7 minutes or 7 years old is immaterial. If the polk tread caught his attention then he can comment on it as he sees fit. I hope he is not discouraged and posts his opinion or ask any questions he so desires. We all will be looking forward to posts from your new member. 

John J.


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Well..all.I can say is the title needs to change....

Try..this...

"Polks doors closed"..

Then it might be relevant.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_etiquette

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/show...erhaps-a-silly-question&p=5461942#post5461942

http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/09/16/forum-necromancy/


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)




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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So it was the demise of golf courses that finally terminated Aristo... glad this 14 page thread was resurrected so we can spend another 14 pages flogging it, and that the moderator encourages it. 

*http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/nyregion/21golf.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0*



RickV said:


> I just received this email:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

...


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What's the point of trying to correct a thread?
If you don't like it, leave it.
There, all better.

Sometimes being right is just all wrong.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

So we've derailed this tread, so please close it down. No need to leave it open any longer.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it just won't die.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

Kind of like 1:29 ? sorry I couldn't resist...


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Totalwrecker said:


> What's the point of trying to correct a thread?
> If you don't like it, leave it.
> There, all better.
> 
> Sometimes being right is just all wrong.


The point is, Greg always has to correct everything and everybody. I haven't been around MLS for awhile, and I see nothing has changed except the new forum software is all screwed up.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Got it wrong Del.

Beating a dead horse is the wrong reason to revive a thread.

Greg

p.s. everyone is entitled to his opinion, although you are breaking the rules again by making personal comment...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Gentlemen, I'll once again remind you that if you see a post on a forum which would seem to violate the rules, your sense of "forum etiquette," or anything else that might tend to twist your knickers, please use the "Report Post" button to alert the moderators. We're here to deal with that kind of stuff so you don't have to. Please feel no obligation to respond to the offender. (_Especially_ a new one!) In fact, we would encourage you specifically _not _to respond. To borrow a line from my daughter's favorite song, "let it go." 

Later,

K


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