# A Beginner's Question



## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hello fellow train buffs. 

I'll get right to my question.

I have several G-scale garden trains in my attic that I never I used since the day I bought them. I got them at a sale with extra cars to match so they are fairly long trains, but didn't come with much track.

Recently I've been thinking about getting them out and setting them up in my front yard garden. However, I don't want to make this into a huge financial project. Time I have. Money I don't. 

So what I need is a way to build long sections of track from scratch cheap. 

So my question is this: Is there a way to just by the rails for G-scale trains in long pieces so I can build my own track?

That's basically it. If I can find a way to build cheap track I'll be all set. 

I will ultimately need at least 60 feet of track minimum. I already have a lot of curved sections that came with the original trains, and I also have some switches or turnouts. So if I can find a way or building inexpensive track I might actually build dual tracks using the turnouts to connect them. So the 60 feet is a minimum. That could easily double if I get ambitious. But I can't afford to buy standard track at standard prices. All I need are inexpensive long lengths of rails and I can take it from there.

So any info on what I might be able to use for rails will be appreciated. 

Thank you.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Most of the rail manufacturers sell rail separately. Get a recent copy of Garden Railways Magazine and look for ads by: Accucraft, Sierra Valley, Lagas Creek and I think that AristoCraft also has rail separately. You will need to buy or borrow a rail bender. This track needs mechanical help for smooth curves. Not like bending track in smaller gauges.

You will have to first decide on the size (height) of rail you want, code 215, 250, or 332. Then the metal, brass, nickle silver, stainless steel, or Aluminum.


Al lot of people in the hobby hand lay their track. I'm sure you will get a lot of help on the doos and don'ts.

Chuck


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Chuck. 

Bending the track might not be a big problem for me. By that I simply mean that most of the track I'll need will basically be straight. If I need a curve I could just use a standard piece of curve track. I've got plenty of standard curved track. I could probably even cough up the cash to buy a few gentler curve sections as well. So as along as I can make long straight sections cheap everything will be cool. I'm not opposed to buying any track at all. I just don't want to end up in the poor house for the long straight sections.


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## iaviksfan (Dec 27, 2007)

before buying my aristo track, i hand made my track, using alum bar stock. (1/2"x 1/8) it was like $1.20 per 10' and used wood lattice for the ties. I cut grooves in the wood to maintain spacing and used alum. 1/2" angle to fasten the rail to deckboards. For joining sections, i used the same bar stock and pop-riveted them together. Still holding together after 9-10 years. 
Hope this helps, 
Greg R.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

"alum bar stock. (1/2"x 1/8) it was like $1.20 per 10'" 

That's what I'm looking for. In fact, for straight sections I could probably get by with angle aluminum. Then I'd just need to drill holes in the angle to fasten it directly to the ties. I could then hide the angle visually by either simply painting it a dark earthy color, or covering it with some sort of landscaping material. I'm not worried about super realistic details. I just want to get this thing up and running. My guests aren't going to be noticing the track, they'll just think the train is cool. 

The kind of price you're talking about here is what I need. For 60 feet of straight track that would only be about $25 plus screws. And a lot of time. I have a wood shop so I can make ties easily. In fact, what I would do is make the ties, then fasten them to a substrate board, and then attach the aluminum rails to those. The actual track would then be a very solid long board. I'm planning on having this whole train elevated about 3 or four feet in the air. So it will basically be like running along the top of a garden fence, rather than on the ground. There are too many hazards on the ground in my location. (i.e. wild animals, etc). 

I also plan on building a "tunnel display case" enclosure to park the train in when not in use. This enclosure will have a shingled peaked roof to look like a covered bridge, with the sides being enclosed in glass so the train can be seen when parked in the protective covering. This way I can just leave the train in this enclosure and not need to worry about taking it in every night in case of rain or whatever. 

In fact, that enclosure will be my first project, and everything will evolve from there. I haven't started on this yet. At this point I'm just thinking about. I need to get this "Cheap Track" issues out of the way first. And thus far it's sounds promising if 1/8" thick aluminum is all I need for rails. Like I say, buying angle aluminum directly might make it even easier all around. Then I won't need to mess with individual angles. Just drill and screw. Boom! I'm done. 

I'll seeking a quick and easy hobby. I don't want this to become a major project. It's just an aside to the rest of my life. I can't afford for this to become my prime time-consuming hobby. And so far this sounds promising.


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## josephunh (Mar 27, 2013)

Zeno depending on how fast you want to getup and running you can do all the suggestions above else also keep an eye out on ebay for people possibly selling old track.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Zeno, 

Some thoughts ... 

Why not start out with the track you have, and expand the railway later if you find a garden railway holds your interest? That way you can get started at minimal cost using your existing track. 

Have you given any thought to how you wish to power your railway, and any powered features (sound, etc) you wish? 

For your enclosure (same as a tunnel), unless the roof or a wall is removable, you may want to limit the length to twice your arm, in case you need to clean track, clear debris, or retrieve a derailed train.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi BigRedOne,

You have good questions and I thank you for asking them as they do cause me to think about these things. Although I have already thought about some of them.

"Why not start out with the track you have, and expand the railway later if you find a garden railway holds your interest? That way you can get started at minimal cost using your existing track."

I'm not sure exactly what I even have. I know there are at least three complete Garden Train sets in my attic. Their might be even be four of them. But I'm sure there are at least three. I know that I also bought some extra matching cars at the time. I think the original kits came with an engine, one car, and a caboose. And each kit came with just enough tract to make a circle (no straight sections at all. 

So I have at at least three full circles of curved track. And three transformers. I bought these many years ago at a train show. I got them brand new at a really good price. The engine are all old-fashioned wood-stoking steamers. At least two of them were fright trains, and at least one was a passenger train. I think there might be two passenger trains but I'm not sure about that.

I do know that I bought extra passenger coaches that match the passenger train though. I haven't even been up in the attic to dig them out yet. 

I also know that I bought either 2 or 4 manual turnouts and some straight sections of track. But not a whole lot. I might have as many as maybe 8 short straight sections at most. I doubt that I have anymore than that, and maybe not even that much.

I've been thinking about building this "layout" for many years. And this spring I've been doing a lot of yard work and I've decided that it really basically needs to be now or never. So I'm going to did these trains out and either do something with them or sell them.

So that's where I'm at right now. 

"Have you given any thought to how you wish to power your railway, and any powered features (sound, etc) you wish?"

I was hoping to just use the power transformer that came with them. Although I have some super heavy duty power transformers for HO scale. I wonder if those would also work for the G scale? The tiny transformer that came with the original trains sure look like the same transformer that come with HO kits.

So I think I have enough power. I'm not sure how far one of those little transformers will power to? But surely three of them would fill the bill even if I needed to isolate three different sections of track to do it that way.

So I'm not really sure what I'll run into in terms of power. I'm not worried about sound right now. 


"For your enclosure (same as a tunnel), unless the roof or a wall is removable, you may want to limit the length to twice your arm, in case you need to clean track, clear debris, or retrieve a derailed train." 

That's a good point. Cabinetmaking is a hobby of mine. I built many "Coffee table" N-scale train layout in the past. I'm going to be treating this "tunnel display case" as a curio cabinet. So I'll definitely make the roof hinged. And the glass sides will also be easily removable at least on one side that will be considered to be the "front".

I was thinking that I might build that anyway. Even if I sold this passenger train I could sell it right in this "Tunnel Display Case". It could either be used as part of an actual layout or it could just be hung on the wall as a display case.

In fact, if that part goes well I might get into just manufacturing those glass tunnels and selling them empty for other G scale enthusiasts to just buy for their trains as display cases. 

I'll have to dig all this stuff out first and see exactly what it is that I have to work with.

Even if I just went with the track I currently have I would still want to build a raised boardwalk to mount it on. So that part is going to be a project in itself. I have plenty of lumber for that already. So there's no cost there, just time. Time I can afford. As long as it doesn't consume me completely.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Inventory what you have and by whom. Track isn't always the same. Depending upon who made your starter set the transformers may barely run the engine let alone pull a train. Tell us what you have and where you live WE CAN HELP.

ChucK


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I just took a peek in the attic. 

It appears that these are all "Bachman" trains. 

Apparently I have more than I thought. 

I have a green Liberty Bell passenger train with two extra passenger coaches. The kit comes with two passenger coaches and no caboose. So with the two extra coaches this is a 4 coach passenger train. I think those are the only extra cars I have. Everything is still it the original boxes never used. In fact, its even still in the cardboard shipping boxes. I'm not sure how much track comes with each kit. It says a 20 foot oval. So I guess there's at least a couple pieces of straight sections in each kit. 

I have two Gold Rush passenger trains. Each one comes with two passenger coaches, and an engine of course. I guess I didn't buy any extra coaches for those figuring on just doubling that up into one longer train. These are burgundy or dark red coaches. 


Then I have two Silverton Flyers? These are each identical. They each come with an engine a box car and a caboose. These are all Bachman trains. 

So I have a lot more than I first thought. 

I also found a box of 12 pieces of straight track. So I have at least 12 feet of straight track plus whatever straight sections are in these five kits. There might be another box of straight track up there yet. There's so much junk in the attic it's hard to dig this stuff out. I also found four boxes of curved track. I have no clue why I bought more curved track. It must have been tossed in with the deal. I know for sure there are at least two turnouts, maybe four. I didn't see them this trip to the attic, but I know I bought some so they're up there somewhere. And there might be another box of straight sections too. I'll have to go back up and dig around some more. 

I didn't realize I had this much junk to play with. I bought this all at one time at a train sale probably about 30 years ago or more. Some guy just didn't want to bother packing it all back up again so he gave me a really good deal on the whole shebang. That's how I ended up with all this G-scale stuff. 

There's a lot of HO, N, and Lionel O-scale stuff up there too. 

I'll have to look harder for those turnouts. There might be some more straight track in with them. I might have enough to make a layout just with what I have after all. 

By the way, the straight track in the box is AristoCraft track. I don't know if that will work with these Bachman trains or not? I don't know if the turnouts are compatible either. I just assumed this stuff was all G-scale and would work together.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The track you have may be steel. Not good out side.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann track, from older sets, will not last very long outdoors. Unless, you like a pile of rust. They are now selling brass track, but I don't know if it is included in the newer starter sets. Their power supplies are marginal at best. Bachmann track is a tubular steel. It will not mate easily with any solid track. Aluminum track as suggested by BRO has fans and foes. For track power, which your engines will require, it is not generally recommended. It works for some and not for others and I have no idea why. It is very good for battery and live steam. Get involved with a local group. Their collective knowledge will save you time and money. Chuck


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Treeman on 11 Apr 2013 08:22 PM 
The track you have may be steel. Not good out side. 
It says on the box Indoor/Outdoor. It appears gold in color. It may be brass or aluminum anodized to look like brass. I don't know about the track that came with these kits. That track may not be usable outside. Good point. I never thought about that. I'll have to look more closely at the train boxes and see if it says anything about the track.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The track you don't want outside is the steel fabricated stuff Bachmann makes. It is hollow and will rust away in a very short time ... 

Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By chuck n on 11 Apr 2013 08:33 PM 
Bachmann track, from older sets, will not last very long outdoors. Unless, you like a pile of rust. They are now selling brass track, but I don't know if it is included in the newer starter sets. Their power supplies are marginal at best. Bachmann track is a tubular steel. It will not mate easily with any solid track. Aluminum track as suggested by BRO has fans and foes. For track power, which your engines will require, it is not generally recommended. It works for some and not for others and I have no idea why. It is very good for battery and live steam. Get involved with a local group. Their collective knowledge will save you time and money. Chuck 
That's a real bummer. That sets me back to square zero. Here I thought I had more than enough curved track and none of it is usable outdoors. Maybe I'll just forget the whole thing and just sell these instead of trying to mess around with them.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, look at the cross section of the rail. Is it hollow, not good for outside, or solid good for outside? The steel track should be magnetic. Rail suitable for outdoors is not. Bachmann introduced brass rail only in the past year or so. since you have had these sets for a while, it is unlikely that you have brass track. Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, sorry to be a messenger of disappointment. You have some great sets. You can get track lengths to hand lay. It is less expensive, than sectional track. Take it one section at a time. We all had to start somewhere. Your track should last for the life of your RR. Don't buy track you might have to replace later, that is wasted money. Garden Railroads are a long journey, not a short trip. It will take time effort and education. There are a lot of mistakes out there. I have made most of them, forums such as this one didn't 30 years ago didn't exist, when I started. By communicating with MLS, I hope that we can help you avoid most of them. Chuck


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

All Bachman Starter sets still come with steel track.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

The indoor/outdoor track I have appears to be solid brass. But yeah, all the track in the kits is hollow tin or steel track. So all that track is useless. 

What I could do is just focus on building the base of the layout. That alone will probably take a year to complete. What I would like to do is place the entire train at an elevation of about 3 to 4 feet above ground. The garden area where this will be going is not level anyway. So it will be a good four feet off the ground at one end of the garden whilst only being about a foot off the ground at the other end. That's if I keep the track perfectly level. 

That would be ok. I could use this indoor track as a guide for building that wooden base. Then when get the outdoor track it would just slip right into place. 

I haven't found those turnouts yet. I don't know whether they are Indoor/outdoor or not. I was hoping to have at least a spur, or hopefully a whole by-pass. Maybe run two trains, having them switch turns going around the loop automatically. I'm really getting ambitious now. (ha ha) 

Well I do have enough trains. That's not going to be a problem. Getting the track laid out will be the job.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, make a circle out of your curved track. Then measure the diameter of the circle. That measurement will further help us, help you. Chuck


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

You can sell your steel track on the web and use these dollars to get you started with solid rail. 
Rail ia available by different manufacturers and comes in many metals and lengths. 

Train-Li has brass and nickel plated rails in 5 foot and 8 foot lengths. 

I believe Aristo used to have 10 foot brass (was available in the Malden, MA store years back). Of course the clerk could have had a rubber ruler when measuring and it shrunk.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I was originally thinking of just setting something up relativity quick easy and just for kicks. But maybe it would be worth turning it into a more serious project. Laying down a really solid foundational "roadbed" could easily take a year to really do it right with nice details. But it might be worth it in the long haul. Then I've have something that is basically permanent and far prettier than I had originally thought about doing. I'll start by building that curio storage/tunnel first. See how that goes. I could always sell that storage/tunnel if I decide to cancel the rest of the project. So that's a really good place to get my feet wet and see just how time consuming this might be. 


If the storage tunnel turns out really well, I might be able to just make more of those and then sell them to get money for track. That's an idea too.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I got out the Liberty Bell passenger train today and set it up in the woodshop. It's over 8 feet long. It consists of the coal locomotive and tender, a full baggage car, a half-baggage/coach car and two more full coaches. 

I'm going to try to post pictures here. Not sure if this will work and I don't see any way to preview posts here so I hope this works: 

The full train: 










The Engine: 










Baggage Cars: 










Passenger Coaches:


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## hunteman (Dec 27, 2007)

I also live on a steep slope and choose to elevate my RR about 30" to ease work and maintenance. The outer end of my large figure eight is about 6.5' off the ground. I used treated lumber to support the rr. I used 4x4 posts with 2x6 boards for the track. I use code 250 aluminum rail and track power since I couldn't figure out how to place batteries in skeleton log car carrying logs. After a couple of months of North Carolina spring/summer weather it was apparent that I would need to do something about getting power to the rails. I installed 12 gauge wires under the track with feeders connecting to the track about every 6 feet. I haven't had any power problems since adding the bus wiring and feeders. I have encountered rail expansion issues during very warm/hot days. When you lay your track, don't forget to allow for expansion of the rails, otherwise your track will resemble some of the turn-of-the-century narrow gauge and logging railroads.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

When you lay your track, don't forget to allow for expansion of the rails, otherwise your track will resemble some of the turn-of-the-century narrow gauge and logging railroads. 

That's an interesting thought. I'm wondering too though how that works if you're actually laying the track down in really hot weather? Maybe make it as tight as possible so that when it shrinks in the cold weather the gaps aren't too big? I imagine that's a sensitive problem that could go either way. I live in a location that gets very hot in the summer and extremely cold in the winter. In fact, the winters are so harsh at times I might do well to bring the track in over the winter months? Or at least cover it in some way so that it's not just sitting there in the snow all winter. 

How long is your railway Hunteman? The one I'm hoping to build would be about 60 feet total, unless I get into spurs or a bypass.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Unlike smaller scales, we don't need to secure the track to the roadbed. My experience was the whole oval grew and shrank as one unit. I use Aristo Stainless steel and my temps range from 4 to 114 degrees. I use the free floating in ballast method except where on a trestle or bridge and there I let the track 'float' on the structure. I screw in and torq the tiny screws or use clamps when the screws can't be used. 

Happy Rails 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

"Unlike smaller scales, we don't need to secure the track to the roadbed. My experience was the whole oval grew and shrank as one unit." 

That's a good point Totalwrecker. I noticed on my Aristo brass track there are tiny screws to fasten together the track sections using the connectors. So the track wouldn't need to be secured to the roadbed firmly as you point out. It could be held in place very loosely with a few guides that allow for expansion and contraction. This would also make it easy to pull up the track for winter storage. I see no point in leaving the track out all winter when it can be stored indoors easily. 

I'm glad you mentioned this because my first thoughts were to secure each and every section to the roadbed. But that's totally unnecessary and could ultimately cause problems anyway. So yeah, just screw the sections together and let them float. Maybe just use a few loose fasteners here and there to assure no major movement but still allow for expansion. 

Thanks for bringing up that point.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

There has been a very recent thread on floating or anchoring track. I suggest that you look at it. It reinforces what John just said. Chuck

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/127890/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Good afternoon Zeno, 

Back to your original statements, if you only want sixty feet of track (which is a rather small layout - using the 4 foot diameter track, 12.5 feet is taken up by the curved sections; that would only leave 24' feet in both directions for straight track); regardless, if you pick up some used track, you might be able to get all you need for under $200. Of course, you really don't stipulate what you mean by "cheap" or what you want to spend. Several of my fellow G-scale enthusiasts have often said you don't do this hobby if you have to ask "how much is it going to cost me?" Since many of these starter sets where not well made...especially 30 years ago, you might want to really think long and hard about even getting into it. I most certainly don't think I would tackle hand laying my own track....very time consuming and still needs to be exacting. Maybe you just set this up from time to time when friends come over and not leave it up outside year round? Have fun and good luck. 

Ed


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hello Ed, Thanks for the comments and info. 

You're right about not wanting to get into the hobby big time. Although I can see where the bug bites hard! Just from looking at some photos and websites people have posted on this site I'm already getting lost in the idea of building a lot of G-scale model buildings to replicate many of the small businesses in my area. I live next to a state park so there are a lot of quaint shops, pubs, and another historical buildings that I could replicate on my layout. So that side of things interests me. I'm not sure if that would cost a whole lot since I would most likely replicate all those buildings myself from scratch. But I've already been thinking about buying G-scale people to populate the layout and maybe a logging, truck etc. Accessories like that can add up quickly. 

But for now let's just get back to a "bare-bones" layout. 

I also agree with you on the idea that these starter trains I have may not be very durable. That is a cause for some concern because I certainly don't want to get into paying big bucks for high quality trains. Right now I have basically five starter kits, so that should keep me going for a while. If all five of these trains fall apart real quick I'll probably just toss in the towel at that point. 

In any case I can see where there are many details to be considered. So with camera and tape measure in hand I went out today and did some quick planning. 

I hope all these photos show up in this post. 

This is a picture of the area I have to landscape and make into a potential model railroad site. This is basically my front yard right in front of my house, which is actually a small cottage in the woods. The central path in this picture lead up to my front door. I am thinking about putting this model railroad up in the section to the left of the walkway. Although if that works out I might be tempted to put one on the section to the right as well. 










There are actually three sections to this landscaping area, and the following is a picture of the upper part of it which would be a third section and a potential spot for a third layout. 










You can't really tell much from these pictures. I've just started to clean this area up and decided to do something with it. That's when I thought about maybe making it into a little "Tiny Town" of sorts with these G-scale trains as a feature. 

I've measured my track circle and it comes out to be about 4 feet from the center of the track. I also laid out the circle in a few of my "tightest corners" and it appears that I'll always be able to turn around without a problem, and potentially even have room to spare if I don't try to force ever inch out of these areas. 
































Those are the tightest spots and it appears I'll be ok for being able to fit these trains into these areas. 

Now to give you a better idea of the bird's eye view I drew up the area with some measurements: 

In this drawing I call out the three sections of the area as A, B and C. The Brown circles represent trees. The bluish-gray rectangles represent large rocks in the center of the area. People tend to like to sit on these rocks. And the blue circles represent 4 foot diameter track circles (just to show how the track can be turned around easily in all of these areas) 










The next drawing just shows the measurements of section A. This is where I'm thinking about putting up the first (and possibly only) layout. The other areas are just open to possible future expansion. 










And finally the last drawing shows how I'm hoping to layout the track in this section. 










Although I might add a spur or by pass. I'd kind of like to have a by pass somewhere possibly on the long straight run. But that might be too noisy for this tiny layout. Especially if that by pass has a second train sitting on it. I'll have to decide on the by-pass later. 

I'll probably be setting things up temporarily first anyway so I can get a feel for whether or not that would be too much. 

Here's a couple ideas I have for a possible by-pass. But I'll have to wait and see what that looks like in reality. It might be too much for such a small layout. Especially considering that the hole thing will be trellised. The by-pass might be way too ambitious.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Darth Vader here again. 4' diameter curves are not designed for long living locomotives. Unless it is a 0-4-0 it will not last long. Tight curves add unnecessary wear and tear on gears and motors. The general recommendation is to use the largest diameter your space will permit. It looks as if you can get 10' or 8' diameters in your space "c". Tight curves are OK under a Christmas tree, but not for extended year round running. Chuck


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Darth, 

Since I'll need to buy outdoor track I be sure to get gentler curves. 

I've given the Layout some more thought. Some things were bothering me about how I might go about landscaping this being that the train will be elevated above the ground. I can't very well have the buildings on the ground that won't make a very good layout. 

So I figured out the following. 










At top of this area (near where people like to congregate) I'll have a platform station with a whole bunch of stores like in an old Western Town. I can paint up each store front to match up with local area businesses. It won't matter that in reality they are far away from each other. In this layout they will all be on the same boardwalk platform. They will still be recognized by their store fronts. In this way I can elevate all these storefronts to match the track height and it will look good. 

Just past the station (facing another patio) I'll have the covered-bridge curio display tunnel where I'll park the train. People can still see it through the glass display case even when it's not running. We spend a lot time on that patio playing music so I'll have to be sure and have this curio tunnel lit at night. 

At the other end of the layout I'll have a second platform station and old-fashion mall. This faces out into the driveway. So it will be good for the second station. 

Then I realized that I can place a second covered-bridge curio display tunnel right behind this station and park a second train in that. This way the by-pass won't be obtrusive. And you'll be able to see that train from the walk-way when it's parked. 

This is cool. 

I can hardly wait to get started on it. This is going to take a year to build so don't hold your breath. I'm just dreaming right now.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, we all want you to succeed. This is a great hobby, but if you try to do too much too quickly, it can lead to frustration and abandoning a great hobby. You haven't said where you live. There are clubs and individuals in this hobby all over the country. Try to make local contacts. In the long run it will help you build a railroad you will enjoy for many years. Talking to locals will pay dividends in the future. Chuck Edit, looks great. Try to see other garden railroads in your area and ask a lot of questions. There are a lot of mistakes most of us have made. Don't repeat them, come up with some new ones.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zeno, you're welcome, others have helped me here and I pass on what I can. 

We won't hold you to any statments of early enthusiasm.... been there too. 
Most inportant is we want pics of what you've done. Don't be shy, we come from all levels of skillls. We have some very talented 'fine-scalers', but those details get eaten in my yard! ha ha. Critters... the cutest round tail ground squirrels, love to chew plastic almost as much as the peanuts I toss 'em. Me? I just try to make my toys look realistic and have fun doing it. 

Welcome aboard, it's a great hobby. 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Chuck. 

I'm aware that this will take some time. I'm not in any rush. I'm more than willing to hear tips from other hobbyists. That's why I came to this site in the first place. I got a lot of great tips already. Does it look like I'm getting too over ambitious? 

This is a pretty simply track loop just outlining the available area. The extra by-pass may be a bit ambitious, but I think having a second train prepared to run would be worth the extra effort. 

I'm not exactly new to model railroading in general. I've had several layouts in the past, in O, N, and HO scale. Some of those were pretty complicated. I've done fancy wiring with different sections of tracks insulated from each other and automatic switching, etc. In fact, I'd really like to have these two trains alternate by themselves automatically. (well computer controlled). I have a bunch of old computers I can use for this type of thing. I can already see which sections of the track I would need to be able to control separately to do what I would like to do. In this case it would require three isolated sections. The By-pass being one section. And basically the main loop would need to be divided in half. 

I can handle that kind of wiring and control without a problem. This would be a pretty simple by-pass scheme actually. 

The hardest part for me is going to be building the elevated roadbed I think. That's going to need to be nice and level and square and sturdy. It's also going to need to be a the perfect height so it doesn't get outrageously high or low at either end. figuring out the elevation scheme is going to be the most difficult part I think. 

What I'm calling the North Station is the highest ground level. So the track will be closest to the ground at that point. The South Station will be the higher end to keep the track level. 

So my concern right now is to figure out what that difference will actually be. 

I'd like to keep the North Station at least a foot and a half to 2 feet above ground level. The South Station would be dictated from that. But I really don't want the South Station to be ridiculously high either. So I may need a trade off here. 

I'd like to avoid any grades for the train if possible because I'm sure these starter trains I have aren't likely to handle much of a grade, especially since I've added extra cars. 

My location is Clarion Pennsylvania, USA. There is a train club in town but I think they are into the smaller scales. 

I don't really intend on becoming a full-time model railroad hobbyist. I just want to build a simple loop. Maybe with a by-pass for an extra train. I don't have to have the by-pass, but it's something to consider whilst I'm dreaming.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zeno, 
This site will have a lot of information on those old trains of yours: http://www.girr.org/girr/index.html 
Lots of quality help and knowledge by a wel respected modeler. It's on my favorites bar... 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi John, 

We won't hold you to any statments of early enthusiasm.... been there too. 

Does it sound like I'm 'over-ambitious'? I'm just talking about building a little loop with a possible by-pass. It could hardly get much smaller without turning back into the little oval that came with the starter kit. 

I'm also thinking that the scenery I just described is kind of a "cop-out" too. I mean, all I'll need to do is basically make two little station platforms with store fronts and I'll be done. That sure beats trying to make a whole "Tiny Town" out of the entire area. And these two stations will give the layout a bit of character. The train will then have a purpose (i.e. connect the two stations). Plus making the storefronts match local business will give it interest too. People will recognize that easily and I'm sure that will be a conversation piece. 

Critters... the cutest round tail ground squirrels, love to chew plastic almost as much as the peanuts I toss 'em. 

The covered bridge storage tunnels were my very first idea so I can leave the train out at night and not worry about weather or animals. So that's something I'm actually planning on building as the very first project. I'll make that as squirrel and raccoon proof as I possibly can. I know the damage both of those critters can do. 

In fact, that my put a damper on my idea to have plastic G-Scale people on the platforms. Like you say, those people will probably be destroyed by squirrels in short order. I'll have to think about building some kind of covers for the platforms. I might even be able to make wooden lids for them that just open up and fold out of the way. I'm glad you bought that up. 

In fact, that gives my idea to just build two stations merit. If I were to try to landscape the whole layout there's no way I could protect everything. But I might be able to protect two stations. 

Trust me, when I design something you can bet your last dollar that it's been designed with as much laziness in mind as possible. (ha ha) 

I don't want to do anymore work than is necessary. 

The only real problem for me is that this is far from my only hobby. In fact, I really don't want to turn it into a full-fledged "Hobby". 

I spend most of my time studying mathematics, and practicing musical instruments. So this train thing is just an aside. More of 'home improvement' project than a hobby.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing wrong with passing sidings. I have two on my layout. That way I can run any one of three separate trains I have out. Welcome. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

No not overly ambitious, it's just some of my early dream-ideas never came to fruition, other better ideas took their place. 
So go ahead and dream out loud, maybe down the road we'll share a chuckle. 

John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zeno, 
As much as I like and use Aristo's joiner screws, I wouldn't want to have to undo and redo winter/spring. The screws can be fussy and I've also rounded the socket in 'em when torquing them tight. I do use beeswax to hold them to the Allen wrenches and when I remember I'll slide a piece of paper under the joint to catch them when my shaking hand doesn't quite line up.... 
I think that it's better to leave the track in place year round. Spray the ties with UV clearcoat if fading is a concern, wasn't to me, those little screws don't have a lot of tightening in them. 
Most folk leave the track in place and store their buildings inside as necessary. Having the track out reminds me to work on it and prevents later regrets; "Oh I wish I had done that yesterday, so I can run today!" 


Happy Rails 
John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

My best advice at this stage is to NOT use 4' diameter at one end, when the rest of the layout can be much larger diameter track. See if you can engineer at least 6'. Your trains will run much better and more reliably, i.e. fewer derailments. 

Nothing takes the wind out of the sails of a newcomer when he spends more time fixing and fussing than running and enjoying. 

Poor trackwork, intermittent power connections and too-tight curves are the prime things NOT to do. Trust me, my first loop had 4' curves and it was not acceptable at all for the locos I wanted and even the 40' cars I ran. 

Greg


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Afternoon Zeno, Since you are located in PA and definitely into four seasons....you might want to look into a raised ladder back rail bed. Won't have to worry as much about snow and rain (wet soggy grounds) from messing up your track. If you find a G-scale club or other members in your area, then you could borrow a rail bender...those four foot diameter track sections can be re-bent to 6 foot or 8 foot sections. You layout thoughts are fine, I just wouldn't confine myself to the existing "tree well" layout. You have great field stone to work with and even though you are in the woods, there are plenty of plants that can assist your final landscaping of the layout (might check with your local nursery or Master Gardeners club for information on shade plants). Most of the posted advice is trying to assure that you don't get discouraged or make some of the classic mistakes that most have made in the past. Who knows, if you get something going that you like, you may want to expand. I like my raised layout because my knees don't like getting up and down as much as I did when I was 40-50....at 63, I like to do things that are easier!!!! Ha. Have a great time with this. Ed 

Trying to insert a picture...trying again.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the picture Ed, that's a nice roadbed. That's basically what I have in mind myself. I'll be building mine from scratch using lumber I already have. What I have pictured in my mind would be quite a bit heavier than what you have, and that may be overkill. The only reason I'm thinking heavier is because I have mainly 1" rough-cut lumber to work with. So it's pretty thick stuff. More like an 1.25" thick. I do have a planner but there's not point in planning things down if it's not necessary. 

I think my first plan of attack for the actual roadbed is to obtain the 6-foot-radius curved sections first so I can use those to insure that I'm laying out the roadbed correctly. 

I've also been thinking about maybe planting some Rhododendron or similar shady area plant to fill up the center of the layout. There's a lot of Rhododendron around these parts I might be able to dig up some starter plants somewhere. That would a cool fill plant. But it will take quite many years to truly fill in. 

I'm not exactly young either. I too am 63 very soon to be 64. So I don't tend to think in terms of "long-term" planning. (ha ha) 

Like I say, I'm going to start by building the curio storage tunnel for the train and see how that project goes first. But I could try to get some Rhododendron. I've actually been thinking about planting Rhododendron in that area anyway. With the raised roadbed that will make good sense. So that will work whether I build the railway or not.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

One option you can consider if you want the ease of access and flat grade of a raised railway, combined with the space to install structures and scenery, is to use fill inside a perimeter. 

Instead of using your lumber to build an elevated track, use it to define the outer perimeter up to the desired height, then fill with dirt. Then you have the entire inside of your oval flat (if you want it flat) and available for structures and landscape. Or you can use fill in places and bridges in other places. 

Thanks for taking the time to make and post your drawings - it helps people interpret and respond to your situation.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Ok, I'm really TORN here with a major decision. I don't need to make this decision right away. But it will need to be made fairly soon. 

I've been looking at track. Track is way expensive! I haven't done precise calculations yet but just looking at the prices of boxed track I can see where this is going to add up real quick. 

I'll need a bare minimum of 60 feet of track. 75 feet is a better estimate. And that doesn't even count the by-pass. May as well round it up to 100 feet of track easily. 

Based on what I've seen for outdoor Aristo Track I'm looking at close to $400 worth of track or more. Potentially I can knock that down seeking a deal on used track. But that's yet to be discovered. 

I not afraid of the idea of building track from scratch. In fact, to be perfectly honest I actually find the idea attractive. I have ideas of how to build actual oak ties in mass quantities complete with perfectly aligned slots for the rails. And I could use those to build any kind of straight or curved sections I need. Not only would the work go fairly quickly, but it would produce an awesome-looking homemade track with actual wooden ties. I'm confident in my craft abilities to produce high quality dependable track. I've worked on high-precision projects in R&D throughout my life, so exacting standards don't scare me away. I'm used to working in aerospace specifications. So a model railroad should be a piece of cake. 

None the less, I just looked into the aluminum bar stock that Greg Suggested. He has suggested a price of $1.20 for a 10' piece. But what I've found is that it's more like $1.20 per foot. That's basically ten times more expensive than he has suggested. 

I just calculated that buying the aluminum rails alone for 100 feet of track would be $171.00 plus shipping. 

That probably will be about half the price of new brass Aristo track. And to me a savings of $200 is nothing to sneeze at. 

It's a little disappointing that the aluminum bar stock turned out to be so expensive. I was hoping to get a bunch of it for about $50. Then I wouldn't be TORN in my decision at all. The aluminum bar stock is more expensive than I had hoped. 

So now I'm sitting here wondering if this whole project is becoming far bigger than I originally had in mind. At least in terms of becoming a financial nightmare. 

Aristo Track? 










Or Home-Grown Rails? 











Any thoughts?


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

BigRedOne wrote: 
One option you can consider if you want the ease of access and flat grade of a raised railway, combined with the space to install structures and scenery, is to use fill inside a perimeter. 

Instead of using your lumber to build an elevated track, use it to define the outer perimeter up to the desired height, then fill with dirt. Then you have the entire inside of your oval flat (if you want it flat) and available for structures and landscape. Or you can use fill in places and bridges in other places. 

Thanks for taking the time to make and post your drawings - it helps people interpret and respond to your situation. 

I was actually considering that idea last night. I even imagined in my mind having the dump truck coming in and dumping the fill. And then I imagined having to deal with it with shovel in hand. That might actually be a very practical and realistic solution, and I agree it would make for a nice "Elevated landscape" to play with. 

But I don't know if I'm prepared to go that route. There would also be a lot of problems associated with that as well. Like for example, how steep could you make the sides of that fill before you got into building major retaining walls? There could be engineering problems associated with that approach that might end up being way more work than I'm feeling up to dealing with. 

I like the idea of just a raised railway with maybe large plants growing in the middle and just a couple elevated station platforms like I has shown in my drawings. This won't require working with heavy dirt. So it looks like the lazy way out, and I think it will workout pretty well. So I've decided to go with just plants in the middle. 

But yeah, I was thinking the same thing last night. Then I had a nightmare dreaming about having to shovel it all and retain it with fairly steep sides. So growing Rhododendrons in the middle became the new "Dream". It's a lot more relaxing just letting the Rhododendrons grown on their own naturally.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Some thoughts on your track situation: 

- Have you considered working directly with an industrial supplier for extruded metal? If you in conjunction with a group of others could put together a typical minimum order, you could buy exactly the rail profile you want in large lengths directly from the company making it; this cuts out all the middlemen and intermediary steps, and is surely the least expensive option. The challenge is meeting the minimum, which might be 1,000 pounds or so. 

- Buying strip stock of a standard size? As an example, 1/8" by 3/8" brass stock purchased from an industrial metal supplier could be laid into notches cut into the run of ties; although not a rail profile, many viewers may never even notice. 

- Look for a part time job. If you need $400 of track, then making $20 / hour (post-tax) will pay for the track in 20 hour. If it would take longer to build the track, why not? (Yes, the fun of scratch-building is lost.) 

- Start your railway smaller. Build using what you have, and then enlarge it later as you have funds - and establish it's a hobby you enjoy.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You need to go to a metal supply company, that sells in bulk to the trade. If you got your aluminum bar prices from Home Depot, they are much higher since they only sell one strip at a time. 

Greg


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I'll have to obtain at least a couple pieces of this aluminum bar stock and try making a large curved section of track just to see how that goes. Then I'll be in a better position to know whether I want to continue down these tracks.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

@ Greg, 

I just looked at your website. My God! Is that a hobby you got there or a full-time career? 

Pretty far out. That's way beyond my capabilities or ambition. 

My little 0-6-0 Liberty Bell with tender and four short cars already seems like a monster to me. In fact, I'm already thinking about the possibility of docking the full-baggage car on a short spur next to the post office just to reduce the length of the main train. Mainly so I can shorten up the storage tunnels. This thing is just over 9 feet long with all four cars. 

What do I count on your train? Three diesels, and 10 extra-long passenger coaches. One beautiful train to be sure. But oh what a monster. I'd hate to have to build a curio covered-bridge storage tunnel for that baby. That thing must be at least 25 feet long or longer.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno

I know that the following is far and away beyond what you're looking to do, however, it does show that just because you build a raised layout doesn't necessarily stop you from having scenery on it.









Richard Smith's - Port Orford Coast R.R. Vol I (PDF 25MB)[/b]

Richard Smith's - Port Orford Coast R.R. Vol II (PDF 23MB)[/b]


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I got out all five of my G-scale trains today and looked them over. I was facing the BIG decision. Do I really want to get into setting up a permanent outdoor diorama? 

I looked over each train in detail. I confess I really like these particular models. They aren't the highest quality models for sure, and the question of durability is weighing heavy on my mind. These trains aren't likely to take too many falls from an elevated track. And it's unrealistic to think that this isn't going to happen somewhere along the way. None the less, these cars are fairly simple construction and wouldn't take much to repair or maintain. These old-fashioned trains will probably look more realistic as they get beat up and repaired anyway. So that's not a major concern. I've even been thinking that since these particular models are fairly popular I will probably be able to pick up matching used and broken rolling stock over time and build up quite a nice set of reinforced and re-modeled cars. I do enjoy doing modeling work. So that part is actually something I can enjoy in my leisure time. 

Still I hadn't seen them run yet so I hooked up a power supply to a long piece of straight track just to see how well the engine works. That was a very nice experience. It runs very smoothly with lots of control and seems to have quite a bit of power. I even found a 9 volt battery and tried out the sound. Choo-choo-choo-choo! Cool. 

I like it. So I decided to give this a shot. Today I picked out some lumber to use to start building my Covered-Bridge Curio Tunnel. I'll have to plane that lumber down and get started in on that project. 

So I guess I've been bitten by the bug. 

I'm also excited about starting in on some of the buildings that will be on the layout. I think I might by one G-scale building just to use as a sample of scale. Along with some people figures. 

Here's the first building I'm planning on modeling: 










This is a fairly easy model but requires a lot of detail. The fenced in porch is actually an open dining area. So there will be tables, chairs, and people to model as part of that. 

In each opening there is a hanging basket of flowers. So that will be fun to model too. And the sign on the roof, "The Forest Nook". I eat there on occasion and will enjoy modeling that restaurant. It's only a few miles from my home. I have a lot of quaint building like this I am hoping to model. But I'm going to take them one at a time. 

The big thing with getting started on this building is to try to figure out the scale. I think getting some G-scale people sitting at tables will help with that. I'm not concerned with being perfectly scaled. I just want something that looks close enough to this building that people will recognize it, and I would like it to be in fair proportion to the G-scale train. 

What I might do is just use a passenger car as a guide. Maybe make this building the same length as a passenger car on this train, and build the height based on the height of the G scale people. I have to get some G-scale people first and start with the table and chairs and then build the building up around that. 

By golly, I think I'm hooked.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Zeno, 
I'm 63 going on 6, it's a good way to stay active. 

If your restuarant isn't going to be near the trains you could use 1:24 or 1/2inch = a foot. I think your trains are 1:22.5. ( a meter = 3 feet). There are scale rulers. I like 1:24 because there are many doll house products to use. But would look small next to your train and passengers. 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for the info John. 

I'm not going to worry about getting bogged down in trying to be precise in scale. I just want things to be pleasing to the eye and not look too far out of whack. But I'm not going to get bogged down in perfection. 

I just bought bought 53 people! I'm going to work from the size of the figures and try to make things look right in comparison with the people. 

These people I bought are all supposed to be "G-Scale" but some are 1:24 and others are 1:32. Real people aren't all the same size anyway. So I'll try to arrange them so they look good in their situations. 

Here's what I bough from a place on Ebay called "We Honest". 

There are 3 sets of these for a total of 18 people. I think these are 1:24. They sell them in bulk like this so this is what you get. 



















There are 5 sets of the following for a total of 35 more people: These are supposed to be 1:32 but they still call them "G-scale" 



















I think these will do fine. I'll build around the people and make them look right. 

If anyone says anything about the scale not being right I'll just politely ask them to leave. (ha ha) 

I figure on laying out the base of the front of the building about the length of a single passenger coach and making the width of the dining area about the same width as as a passenger coach. Then let the rest of the restaurant just evolve from there. I make the tables and seated people in the dinning area and then just make the roof height look right in comparison with those people. It's bound to work out close enough to look half-decent. 

I figure this is probably the best plan of attack. If I try to build the building to scale and then stick the people into the building they might not fit right. So if I build the tables and chairs to fit the people and build the building around that it's got to look pretty decent I would think. 

That's my thinking anyway. So now I just need to wait for my people to arrive before I can do anymore on that project.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

@ Steve C, 

I'm on dial-up here so I had to wait to get over to the library to download those PDF files. Wow! That's an unbelievable model railroad. It's just hard to believe that anyone has the time and money to devote to the hobby like that. 

I confess though that it's easy to get carried away. This tiny layout I'm dreaming about building will be quite a huge job for me just as it is. None the less, I really enjoyed looking at the photos of that masterpiece layout. I love the details and the time period he chose to model in too. I just passed on old stone church that I want to replicate on my layout. This church almost looks like a castle. I also saw some scale nuns for sale. And a G-scale wooden casket. So now I'm thinking of modeling a funeral in progress at a grave yard beside the church. 

This is growing out of hand real quick. (ha ha) 

When it comes to cars should I get 1/24 or 1/32 scale? Or would it matter much? I suppose as long as I stick with one scale size and they all look the same either one will probably work. I'm thinking the 1/32 scale might make the trains look bigger. 

I'm off now to shop around online for some period cars. Probably late 20's to mid 30's would work well for this coal-burning Liberty bell? Maybe horse and buggies wouldn't look out of place especially at the funeral scene. Heck the Amish are still riding horse and buggies in my neck of the woods even today. I could model some of their buggies. 

But I'd like to have some and trucks around too. 

I'd like to find some models to build like this car and truck: 










I got a kick out of this police scene too: 










And I love all his rolling stock, the details are just unbelievable. 



















I have a maintenance train I built once in HO scale. I'll have to dig that out. I know it's around here somewhere.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, 1:22.5/24 and 1:32 are very very different animals. 1:22.5/24 and 1:20.3 are based upon narrow gauge prototypes, North American and European. 1:32 is the correct scale for North American and European standard gauge. As far as I know there isn't much standard gauge rolling stock out there, if any, for the era of your interest.. There is a lot of narrow gauge cars and engines out there suitable for that era. If you want to be scale correct for that era then 1:20.3 is correct. If you just want to run trains from that era the 1:22.5/24 will be fine. This is something that you will need to look into before you start buying. If this confuses you, please ask questions. Chuck for those of you who saw an earlier version of this post, I apologize. I hate typing on an IPad.

To add another scale into the mix, 1:29. There are a lot of very nice cars and engines on the market in this scale They are all based on standard gauge prototypes. You will have a lot more choices if your choice is standard gauge. At separate times I run all the mentioned scales but 1/32.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Chuck. 

I'm not talking about train cars. I'm talking about model automobiles just to be used for scenery. I'm wondering if the 1/32 scale model cars would look ok? 

I just found a really great deal on two Lindenberg model car kits on sale as a package deal on Ebay. One is a 1937 Chevy Convertible and the other is a 1930 Packard Roadster. They are really cheap and I'm drooling to pick them up (ha ha) It looks like a pretty good sale. $12 for the pair. These are just raw kits. I'd have to put them together which is fine with me as I love to build models from scratch. I've been looking around and it's hard to find even one kit like this for much less than $10 + shipping. These are 2 kits for $12 + $6 shipping. Not too bad. 

I just wonder if 1/32 scale automobiles will look ok with this Liberty Bell G-scale train and the people I bought. Supposedly most of those people are 1/32 scale anyway. 

Here's the cars I'm looking at: 










I'm in the mood to build some models. I may as well dig in whilst I'm in the mood. 

I'm also wondering what years I should consider for this Liberty Bell coal burning passenger train? 

Is 1937 too modern for this train? 

That looks like a 1937 Chevy coupe on this other layout. 










On the far left, the car parked by the building. That's probably a 1/32 scale model car don't you think? 

If I stick with all 1/32 model cars at least they will all be the same relative to each other. They should match up pretty good with the people I bought too hopefully. 

The only question now is whether the years match up with the Liberty Bell Passenger train. What year-span am I looking at? Would any of those trains still have been running as late as 1937? Even possibly in their latter years just before retiring?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno, I think that 1/32 people would look fine as general background, passengers and crew in narrow gauge trains. People come in all sizes. I think that 1:22.5/24 people are too large for seats and benches, on my NG rolling stock and sceanery. As far as the automobiles go, you will have to build a couple and see how they look to you. Everyone has a different opinion as to what looks nice to them. In my opinion a 1:32 automobile would look small if it is next to a 1:22.5/24 or 1:20.3 train. But if it was part of a scene a foot or more away from the train it could be fine. It is all about how you think it looks. What others think is for them to keep to themselves. If you like it, that is all that matters. As has been said here many times,"it's your train and the only one who needs to be satisfied, is you". For me there are some combinations of scale that work and others that don't I will not pull a 1:22.5/24 train with a 1:20.3 engine, it just doesn't look good to me. But I will do the reverse. A smaller engine with bigger cars looks OK. But a big engine with small cars doesn't. It is all in what you think looks good! Chuck


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, I guess I'll find out the hard way. I just order those two kits. (ha ha) 

I think they'll look alright. I just can't say until I actually see them on the layout. I guess I'll have to try this and then maybe try some 1:24 scale cars and see which ones I like better. 

I can always sell what I don't like on Ebay. I'll enjoy building the models in any case. Like John I'm 63 going on 6. I used to build model cars when I was a kid, so I guess I"m moving into my second childhood. This all started because I'm cleaning out my attic. I need to put a new roof on my house and I need to get everything out of the attic. It's filled with trains of all scales, as well as antique sewing machines, really old computers, and all manner of junk. Most of this will be sold on Ebay or a yard sale. But I think I'll stick with this G-scale stuff. I don't want to get rid of everything. 

I'm supposed to be selling and here I am buying more model cars. My sister is going to KILL me!


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno

While it may be out of your era (i.e. a fair bit earlier), however, maybe Peter Bunce's scratch-built horse drawn vehicles would provide you with some ideas.







Just as a side note both Richard Smith and Peter Bunce model in western U.S. 1:20.3 narrow gauge (i.e. Pacific Northwest & Colorado respectively).

Peter Bunce's - Horse Drawn Vehicles (PDF 5.23MB)[/b]


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as I understood it Richard Smith models in 1:24th scale. He is using regular Delton (and later AristoCraft) 1:24th scale 2-8-0's for motive power.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Zeno,

You have narrow gauge 1:22.5 scale trains. I would be using 1:24 cars. There is a huge range of cars and trucks in 1:24. The 1:32 ones are way too small. 
I model in 1:20.3 and 1:19. There are no cars and trucks in that scale so I have a few cars and trucks in 1:18. My darn tractors are in 1:16! All a bit too big so I try to stick with smaller prototypes so they don't seem oversize. The 1:24 ones just look way too puney. I am used to my local narrow gauge at 30" so to me the cars don't look as big as they would to people used to 36" narrow gauge. 

Andrew


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

This is going to be a fascinating, highly time-consuming, and addictive hobby. I feel like I'm taking on an evil vice. (ha ha) 

Thanks for the Buggy PDF Chuck. Wonderful ideas there. 

I'm hoping to model a "Fantasy Land" that abstractly represents the area in which I live. So I'll be modeling in-part "fantasy" and in-part "reality". 

This fantasy railway line will be going from Cook Forest State Park (where I live) to the nearby college town of Clarion Pa. I'm not planning on modeling either the State Park or the College Town in deal but rather I'll have basically have two station platforms that abstractly represent each of these places. So on the one station I'll have store fronts from unique and quaint places in Clarion. The actually places I'll be modeling may potentially be quite far apart in the actual town. But on my layout station they will be all lined up side-by-side at the station platform. Probably about 5 or 6 store fronts to represent each station. Then in between those stations I'll have some interesting buildings that actually exist between the state park and town. So this will be a symbolic layout that kind of condenses a widely stretched out reality into a nice neat unified fantasy layout. 

Since we have a lot of Amish living around here having horse drawn carriages will be quite realistic. You actually see the Amish driving their horse drawn carriages around this area all the time even today. And they also farm with horses as well. 

So I can easily model some of these horse drawn buggies and they will fit right in with this fantasy land. They are basically "timeless" because of the Amish keeping that tradition alive to this very day. 

I'm particularly drawn to the following buggies from the PDF you shared: 




























I'll probably need to by the wheels and horses, but I think I can easily build the rest of these buggies from scratch. 

I was thinking too, that when I build the stone church I'll make the cemetery on a separate diorama sitting next to it. This way I can have two or more versions of the cemetery. One version just being a lone cemetery with no figures. Another one will have a huge funeral going on like someone important had died. Lots of buggies and Amish people attending. Then may I could even have yet another version of the cemetery for Halloween with Ghost, Goblins, and Zombies climbing out of their graves. (ha ha) 

The possibilities are endless. 

Am I getting carried away with my dreams? 

Surely so. But isn't it FUN to dream! 

@ Andrew, 

Thanks for the tip on the 1:24 scale automobiles. I just bought these two 1:32 models so I'll go ahead and build these anyway just for the fun of building them. Then I'll see how they look. If they are too small as you suggest, then I'll know to move up to the 1:24 scale. I just had no clue where to start because I don't have things here to compare. 

Even if they are too small to use next to the train I might be able to use them in the background to give an illusion of depth. A far away car should look smaller. Maybe using both 1:24 and 1:32 in the right places can help to give an illusion of more depth to the layout? 

This is so exciting I may never get around to putting the much-needed roof on my real house!


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

*A Temporary Idea* 

I'm taking the advice of BigRedOne and will be setting up a temporary layout just to try things out on. I don't want a permanent train layout in this particular area. I use this patio for other things. But in the meantime this will make a nice place to test out ideas. 




















This is just a very small wooden patio that I have. A 55 gallon aquarium goes in the cut out. I don't have that in place yet because it's too soon to put it out for the summer. This patio could use some paint too. I had previously just used water seal on naked lumber. But I think a coat of brown porch paint might be in order. 

This is nice and level and makes for a quick and stable roadbed. This is all indoor steel track too so I can't be leaving it out. What I'll do is just take some boards and set this track up into longer sections that I can easily set out or take up quickly in five or six sections. 

I doubt that I'll have by "Big Dream" up and running this year. But I can get a lot done toward that dream whilst using this temporary layout for testing things out. 

Gotta take this one baby step at a time. And now I better go cut down some trees to make some lumber for the roof of my real house! 

I gotta quit playing around with these toy trains!!!! 

Why aren't you guys warning me about the addictive hazards of this hobby!


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

A further comment on the 1:32 cars. Most if not all currently available buildings, including kits, are in 1/22.5/24. Chuck PS, I've been in this hobby since 1980, whose addicted--where is my next car or engine. I NEED IT NOW! Chuck


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Zeno on 17 Apr 2013 04:51 PM 
*BIG SNIP* 
Why aren't you guys warning me about the addictive hazards of this hobby! 


Probably because all the "guys" are addicted themselves.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

What's the rush on the house, winter is over now, you've gots lots of time for that.... 

We warned you, but you brushed us aside with that familiar refrain ... 'I'll be different, I won't spend much.....' We sat back and nodded, yep, one of us, fer shure. 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 19 Apr 2013 04:22 PM 
What's the rush on the house, winter is over now, you've gots lots of time for that.... 

We warned you, but you brushed us aside with that familiar refrain ... 'I'll be different, I won't spend much.....' We sat back and nodded, yep, one of us, fer shure. 

John I'm not going to spend any money. Honest!

Well, er, ah,... except for the little people and model cars I just bought. 

The funny thing is that needing a new roof is why I'm cleaning out the attic. I need to clean out the attic before I can take the roof off my house and replace it with a new roof. I'm not talking about just new shingles here. I need a whole new roof. Rafters, sheeting and all. There is a bit of a rush to cut down the trees for the lumber because there a lot easier to work with before the sap starts running. I might already be too late. Sappy lumber is a real pain to have to handle. It would still be good lumber, but it just gets everything all sticky when you work with it. 

Anyway, I'm hoping to actually make some money here pretty soon selling a bunch of train stuff. I have lots of HO, and N scale stuff. And even some Lionel 027 stuff. In fact, I still haven't found the G-scale turnouts, but I did find some brand new 027 turnouts. They are manual turnouts. I'm wondering now if those are all I have? I was hoping to have some G-scale turnouts, but no luck finding them yet. But there are still tons of boxes to go through so who knows, I may find some yet.

I'm re-stacking lumber right now so I better get back at it. This lumber is all hardwood oak. Good for use on model railroads. In fact, this is what I plan to use to build my curio storage tunnels.

No money spent on this project. But lots of time to be sure!


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

*Another Question* 

Since we're talking about spending money, help me spend some. (ha ha) 

I would like to build a set of G-scale old time passenger cars from scratch. The only thing I feel I might need commercial help with is the wheel assemblies. 

*First Question:* What are the wheel assemblies called? Do they have a name? I'm talking about set of four wheels complete as a whole dolly ready to connect to the underside of a car. They also have the coupler to connect with the next car etc. What are they called? Carriage dollies? 

*Second Question* Where can I buy them? 

I think I can build the whole rest of the passenger cars from scratch if I have these wheel dollies.


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## BarrysBigTrains (Sep 4, 2008)

Zeno,


You have opened the door for me.

Two wheels on an axle is basically referred to as a "Axle". Two axles in a four wheel assembly is a Truck.

The question I wanted to raise is that the older Bachmann sets came with plastic wheels. They are quieter than metal, but they also pick up and deposit dirt and all else on your track and generally will reduce the performance of your layout. Metal wheels is where you need to be and start soon and do a little at a time or it can be very discouraging.

Barry


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I just double checked and all these Bachmann trains I have are equipped with metal wheels. You had me shaking in my brakeman boots for a second there. But no these are all metal wheeled train sets. So yippee for that. 

Now I have another question. I was just looking around at truck assemblies and they are EXPENSIVE. I'd be cheaper off just buying whole passenger cars and using the trucks off those. Then I could sell the "wheel-less" plastic coaches as diorama Diners. (ha ha) 

But here's my question: 

I just came from HobbyLinc on the web and I found the following two adds: 










Why is the Observation car $94.50 and the Coach only $16.29? 

I read the finer details of each car and they both have metal wheels. 

That coach for $16.29 is cheaper than most places want just for a pair of G-scale passenger trucks. 

You may as well buy this whole coach just for the trucks. 

Like I say, fix up the wheel-less plastic coach as a Diner diorama and you can get your money back selling that and end up with free trucks. 

Sounds like a plan to me.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Zeno on 19 Apr 2013 09:58 PM 
{snip...}[/i] I would like to build a set of G-scale old time passenger cars from scratch. The only thing I feel I might need commercial help with is the wheel assemblies. {snip...}[/i] Zeno

If you are going to scratch build some old 1870s/1880s Passenger cars then you might find the following of interest if you are going to be modeling in 1:20.3 (i.e. U.S. 3 foot Narrow Gauge).









MLS MasterClass 2006 - 1870/1880 Carter Brother's Coach & Combine (PDF 19.53MB)[/b]

MLS MasterClass 2006 - 1874 Cater Brother's Coach Drawings (.zip 1.2MB)[/b]

MLS MasterClass 2006 - 1874 Cater Brother's Combine Drawings (.zip 1.3MB)[/b]

MLS MasterClass 2006 - 1874 Cater Brother's Coach Drawings (.zip 1.2MB)[/b]

MLS MasterClass 2006 - 1874 Cater Brother's Combine Drawings (.zip 1.3)[/b]

Oh yes, here's a showcase of some of the models completed by various MLS members.









MLS MasterClass 2006 - Participant's Model Showcase (PDF 3.78MB)[/b]


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for the links Steve. Those plans are perfect. Some really nice looking coaches in that showcase too. 

I'll definitely be looking into giving this a shot. Using my own lumber would be pretty difficult though. Most of the materials are going to need to be really thin sheets of wood. Thinner than I safely plane down to. So next on the agenda is to find a source of thin wood sheets to work with.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Zeno

While you can use real wood, you might find that using plastic (e.g. Styrene or Polycarbonate) a better choice. Depending on how many cars you plan on building it's going to be expensive either way.

You can try...

Midwest Products[/b]


Northeastern Scale Lumber[/b]

here are a few additional PDF articles that might be helpful.

Eric Shade's - 2-foot Gauge Maine Passenger Cars (PDF 1004.27KB)[/b]

Don 'Doc' Watson's - Private Car "Mary Alice" (PDF 5.38MB)[/b]

Winn Erdman's - AMS Coach to Parlor Car (PDF 1.13MB)[/b]

Winn Erdman's - R.R. Presidents Private Car (PDF 2.74MB)[/b]

Pete Thornton's - EBT Presidents Car (PDF 1.60MB)[/b]


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Posted By Zeno on 19 Apr 2013 09:58 PM 
*Another Question* 

Since we're talking about spending money, help me spend some. (ha ha) 

I would like to build a set of G-scale old time passenger cars from scratch. The only thing I feel I might need commercial help with is the wheel assemblies. 

*First Question:* What are the wheel assemblies called? Do they have a name? I'm talking about set of four wheels complete as a whole dolly ready to connect to the underside of a car. They also have the coupler to connect with the next car etc. What are they called? Carriage dollies? 

*Second Question* Where can I buy them? 

I think I can build the whole rest of the passenger cars from scratch if I have these wheel dollies. 

If I understand you correctly, you are looking for a "truck" in the US or "bogie" in Europe. 
I have seen them at Nicholas Smith Trains in PA, I think from either Bachman or Aristocraft. The search may be a bit harder if you're particular about the style. In some cases couplers are attached to the body of rail cars (as per the prototype), though in G it seems to be the norm to attach them to the trucks.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks for all the info Steve. I've been reading that Master Class PDF on how to build these kits. That's way more detailed that I'm thinking of doing. I just want to make some fantasy passenger cars. I'm not worried about trying to duplicate an exact replica of some actual antique car. Also the wooden kits they use are $170 just for the pre-cut wooden parts. I'm hoping to sell my finished products for about $100. So I can hardly start out with a $175 kit. 

All the drawings and information you've shared will certainly be useful though. No doubt about that. I'm going to try to get as detailed as I can within reason so it's nice to have detailed drawings to work from. But I may create totally fantasy diorama scenes within the cars. Like people sitting around at card tables and things like that. More like the fancy scenes they sometimes put in movies. I see that "President's Car" has fancy chairs arranged more like in a living room. So that's what I'll be shooting for on the inside. Just make-believe movie type stuff. 

I'm not sure about scale. I was thinking of just going with something similar to these Bachmann kits. Whatever they are. 

I was looking at these two cars in the Master Class PDF book: 










I'm looking to create something more like the purple car. With the round top door and windows. I like a lot of fancy stuff. I was thinking I might hang curtains or shades on some of the windows on the inside too. I would like to make the windows so they can be opened and closed, but that's yet to be seen. I'll only do that if I can do it easily. 

In the meantime I was digging around in the attic some more. I found this old N-scale layout. It measures 4 feet by 1 foot. 










Some of the track came off, but I have a bunch of N-scale flex track here. I might fix up this little layout and see if I can sell it to get some money to buy some of those $16 Jackson Sharp Coaches. I'll use the trucks off those for my wooden coaches.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Zeno, 

It sounds like you are planning to scratch build coaches for sale? 

My first thought is that this is going to be a lower income than simply taking a job for the same amount of time. You'll be competing against mass production, and therefore you have to fill a niche (tiny demand), offer superior product (high quality), or a better value. 

If I may make a suggestion, I think it makes sense to follow the live steam forum, as I've seen a number of posts expressing desire to have coaches matching particular locomotives.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Pretty good demand for 1/32nd cars.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By BigRedOne on 21 Apr 2013 12:45 PM 
Zeno, 

It sounds like you are planning to scratch build coaches for sale? 

My first thought is that this is going to be a lower income than simply taking a job for the same amount of time. You'll be competing against mass production, and therefore you have to fill a niche (tiny demand), offer superior product (high quality), or a better value. 

If I may make a suggestion, I think it makes sense to follow the live steam forum, as I've seen a number of posts expressing desire to have coaches matching particular locomotives. 


I'm always open for suggestions. Naturally I'd like to make the most money for my time, but at the same time, this just supplemental income. I also want to enjoy what I'm doing. So I'm just looking to get a hobby to pay for itself. In fact, that's the only way I can get into this G-scale garden layouts. If I can't make this pay for itself then I may as well quit now because I can't afford to do it if it doesn't pay for itself. I enjoy putting together models and building dioramas. So if I can make cash doing that it will be "work" that's actually fun to do. But you're right too. If I can make even more cash still doing things I enjoy doing that would be cool too. 

The other thing I'm considering is shipping. I'm trying to keep things small enough to where the shipping doesn't become a major problem itself. How big are "Live Steam" coaches? 

One final note also. I'm thinking about actually building things that I would like to use on my own layouts. This way I can set up to build several of them at a time. Sell some to pay back for the expenditure on parts and supplies, and keep one to expand my own layout. 

I'm going to start with simple dioramas of buildings and model cars. If I get into building wooden coaches that's going to be down the road a bit. I'm thinking about it now, but in reality I probably wouldn't be able to start in on those until fall. I'd set up a special place in my wood-shop dedicated to just building those. It would be a mass-production yet hand-crafted type of thing. It's just an idea right now. Like TotalWrecker suggested I'm just dreaming out loud. Putting ideas out there and considering the feedback. 

Live steam coaches might be something to consider. What size are we talking about?


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like to see you succeed, but very few pay for their hobby by making and selling things. It is mostly for self enjoyment and that of their friends (see thread in public forum about a lovely afternoon in Vail, Arizona). Going back to your original (OP) post, it appears that you are new to the LARGE SCALE hobby. I suggest that you spend some time familiarizing yourself with the various scales that run on "G" track. Bachmann passenger cars are 1:24. Other than Bachmann there isn't much being produced in that scale. Live Steam engines come in many different scales and from my position, outside looking in (all my engines are electric), most LS engines are in 1:20.3 (correct for most common North American narrow gauge 3'), 1:32 (correct for North American and European standard gauge, 4'8.5"). There are a few engines in 1:29, 1:22.5, and I think 1.24(?). There are other 1:1 gauges being represented on our track. I also think that a higher percentage of Live Streamers are into a greater level of scale and detail fidelity than is generally found among those of us who use electrons. Hense, the large market for 1:29 scale trains. Before you invest a lot of time, effort, and money in building passenger cars for sale, spend some time studying and learning about the hobby and what might be needed and in what scale. Talk to people in your area, see what they would like to see. Chuck


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

When it pays for itself, it is no longer a hobby, it's a job. 
Just my opinion. 

John


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

John, short and consise beats to many words every time. Chuck


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

That may be true John. But for me it's only a "job" if there are deadlines, schedules, or expectations to meet. 

What I'm talking about is building what I enjoy building, in my own time, and just putting it up on a site like Etsy that specializes in hand-crafted items, and then just let it sell when it sells. If it sells fine. More money in the hobby pot. If it doesn't sell after a reasonable amount of time, that's fine too. Then that item will just become a permanent part of my own layout. 

This way I win whether something sells or not. (ha ha) 

This is why I don't want to get into building or trying to sell stuff that even I don't want. If it doesn't sell then I'm stuck with something I don't want. 

The whole idea is to build stuff that I'd actually like to keep myself and kind of hope it doesn't sell. But if it sells then I'll just have to build another one, and so on, until it stops selling. But every time I make a sale I'll know that I also made a profit. And that means more parts, materials and models to build. Yippee! 

I really do enjoy building these models. I'm a dreamer so as I build them they take me on a journey down memory lane. The only hard part is going to be parting with them when it comes time to ship 'em out. But that's ok. Because, that means that new raw model parts will be getting re-ordered and shipped back in to replace them. 

I'm going to have to make a pretty decent profit on each one of course, so that requires selling at maximum prices. But I've been looking around and I think I can make a few hobby bucks at the prices other people are asking for similar items. Only time will tell on that one. 

It's just an idea. It's worth taking a shot at it. 

BigRedOne is right though. As an "hourly job" it's going to be really cheap wages. But that's OK. I'd rather make cheap wages building models, than making big bucks doing something that really is WORK. (ha ha) 

I'm not looking for a job, I'm just looking to make a hobby pay for itself. It doesn't need to bring home the bacon. I already have a retirement income for that. 

The hobby will either pay for itself or quickly die out. That's just the way it has to be. My retirement income isn't enough to buy bacon AND G-scale train stuff. (ha ha) 

So this hobby either supports itself or will have to find another hobbyist to take it on. I can't afford to take on a "freeloading" hobby. 

That's just the reality of my situation here.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Good Luck 

Your second to last line contradicts your last line of 2nd paragraph.... 

Good Luck 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 21 Apr 2013 08:33 PM 
Good Luck 

Your second to last line contradicts your last line of 2nd paragraph.... 

Good Luck 

John 
You're right John. Technically is does. But realistically what I'm saying is that I'll either make enough money to keep on doing things and the hobby will begin to grow on it's own, or it's going to start becoming a financial burden on me in which case it will slowly grind to a halt and become a stagnant at some point. I'm willing to give it an initial kick in the pants. But if it doesn't start picking up the financial slack on it's own I'll eventually get tired of pushing it along and end up tossing in the towel altogether. I'm just not in a position to take on a constant financial drain. So this is really basically mandatory. It either pays its own way or it dies.

Is it really too much to ask a hobby to pay for itself?
Surely there's a market out there for things like dioramas. They sure seem expensive enough when I'm thinking about buying them. I may as well turn the table around and become the seller. Building models is something I'm both good at, and I enjoy. May as well take advantage of my abilities and resources. If I can make this hobby pay for itself I can end up with a "growing" model railway in my own front yard. But if it isn't contributing to that growth I'm just not in a position to continually pour money into it. 

This is just a statement of reality.


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with what others have posted.
If my hobby depends on me making money, then it becomes a job.
I already have a job, I don't need another.
My hobby is for relaxation and fun. If I start worrying or depending on money because of my hobby, then it's time to find a new hobby. 
If my hobby were too generate income, I would consider that a bonus, but that ain't going to happen for me.
Realistically what the builders tend to value their buildings at, and what the customers are willing to pay don't match.
The same people that appreciate the amount of work you put into a building are also the same ones who can build it themselves, cheaper.
Build your buildings, enjoy your railroad and if you 're able to make a profit, congratulations. 



Tommy








Rio Gracie


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Wow. Talk about a pessimistic group. 

I'm retired. I don't work at all anymore save for work I do around my own home. I'm also not afraid of work. When I was working I was a workaholic. I'd really be glad if I can produce some products that might not only make me a little hobby money, but might also make the people who buy them happy that I made them, that would be great. 

Somebodies got to do it. Have you guys looked around on the Internet lately? There's a market out there for this stuff. There exist people in this world who either can't make this stuff, or just don't have the time to make it, but who would still like to own it. Someone's got to cater to them. It may as well be me. 

Don't forget also, there are probably skilled hobbyists and craftsmen out there who simply don't have the tools to make some of this stuff. That's another reason they might appreciate being able to buy it from someone who does have the resources to make it. 

Like I say, I'm looking at doing this at a very leisurely pace. I'll just open up a shop on Etsy (a place devoted to the arts and handcrafted items) and put stuff up. If it sells, great. If it doesn't there's no big loss. It just didn't fly. And then my hobby railroading dreams will be squelched. It's not like it will be the end of the world if it doesn't work. 

Let me put it this way, if I don't even try, then my hobby railroading dreams are already dead. So it basically a no-lose situation. I can only win. If it doesn't fly I won't be any worse off than I was before I tried. So what are you guys suggesting? That I shouldn't even try? 

Didn't you guys read about "The Little Engine That Could?" when you were young? 










You can be whatever you want to be. You can achieve whatever you set out to achieve. All you need is a little determination and a full head of steam. (ha ha) 

Didn't your mommies tell you that you can be anything you want to be when you grow up? 

Well, I'm all grown up now so it's time for me to be whatever I want to be. And that's how the story goes right? 

Here's another good book I highly recommend for those who might need to have their inner-child imagination-railroad refurbished. 










I actually have this book right here in my hand. This was a book I had from very early childhood. It's a great book. I love it. 

In fact, this was a pretty popular book. I've seen it for sale on ebay quite often. I'll bet if I build a model train that looks exactly like the train in this book it will SELL! 

Thanks for the GREAT IDEA! 

You guys are truly inspirational even if only be pure accident. 

I'm definitely going to model this Forgotten Little Train. It's only a caboose, a flat car made into an open passenger car for tourists, and standard passenger car, and of course Engine No. 7. 


This is GREAT! I would have never even thought of the Forgotten Little Train had it not been for you guys. As a young child reading this book I would have never guessed that I would grow up to actually bring this fantasy train to life. 

Here's the whole train: 










The Cupola Caboose - Red with Green Trim 










The Green flat car made into a tourist passenger sight-seeing car. 










The yellow passenger coach with red trim 










And finally good old Engine No. 7 with a built-in tender. Pretty cool 










I like the original purple color like on the front cover of the book. I think I'll go with that. 

The toughest part of this project will be building the engine cause I'll have to make it go. 

I'm so excited now. You guys got me off on a whole new project here! 

I can hardly wait to get started on it.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Sir, you are full of contradictions 

in your words; 
"I don't want to do anymore work than is necessary. 

The only real problem for me is that this is far from my only hobby. In fact, I really don't want to turn it into a full-fledged "Hobby". 

I spend most of my time studying mathematics, and practicing musical instruments. So this train thing is just an aside. More of 'home improvement' project than a hobby. " 

Now you want to make money providing fantasy products.... Well Sir the folks with the most spendable monies tend to favor highly detaied accurate models. 1:24 and 1:22.5 weren't the right scale, so they championed 1:20.5 and value accuracy over economy. 

I'm sorry, but I don't think your 'plan' and reality add up. 

Remember back in the beginning when I said we wouldn't hold you to those big dreams? Forget it! lol The way you are pushing this 'idea' it's far from a passing fancy. 
Write your volumes, but until you actually make money, I think you are fooling yourself. 

John


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

I appreciate your concerns John, but I think they are misguided. You seem to be taking on a whole different perspective from what I have in mind. 

To begin with, I'm not talking about starting up a business with a huge overhead that needs to be kept up, or financial deadlines that need to be met on time lest I'm forced out of business. I'm just talking about setting up a little on-line shop at Etsy. My sister already has a shop there where she sells her watercolor paintings. The whole thing is entirely a hobby for her. Both creating the watercolor paintings and running her little Etsy shop. In fact, to be quite honest about it I think she's more into running the Etsy shop than into painting. (ha ha) 

Here's a link to her Etsy Shop: Baybeari on Etsy

So not doing this for the money. But she does make money from doing this to buy more paints and art supplies for making more paintings. So it's a hobby that pays for itself in that sense. As an "hourly job" it probably doesn't pay a whole lot. She does work full time still and isn't thinking about giving up her day job because of her little Etsy shop. There's no comparison at all in terms of financial income.

She's actually been after me to start an Etsy shop too. I've been thinking about different possible themes for a shop. Well, now I have finally have a theme that can make sense. Basically hand-crafted scaled dioramas. Etsy isn't like Ebay. It's a lot more laid-back. It's also not an action, it's more like a store. The themes are supposed to be handcrafted or art. But they also allow for "vintage or antique" items as well. And the requirement is that things that are sold that are not handcrafted should be 20 years old or more. All the train stuff I have in the attic is well over 20 years old. So it's all eligible for Esty. And of course, if I handcraft any parts of it, or incorporated it into a handcrafted diorama then it also qualifies as art, or handcrafted products.

So the Esty shops seem like a good storefront for my purposes. Very low overhead there, and it's more laid back than eBay. So my Etsy shop will be themed on scaled dioramas and because I have so much train stuff to sell from my attic it will also take on a model railroading aspect. A shop can be divided up into sections so I might have one for N-scale, HO-scale, O-Scale and G-Scale. No new products! Everything will either be vintage, or handcrafted, because this is what Etsy is all about.

I can buy brand new model cars, but after I assemble them and paint them they become "handcrafted art". Stick them into a small diorama setting at it's even more "art".

So from my perspective this is an artist putting stuff on display to sell. That's the mindset from whence I'm coming. Just like my sister selling her paintings. I'm selling my "art".

Is it possible that I'll fall flat on my face and the whole thing will become a total disaster? Sure. That's often what happens to artists. (ha ha)

You say:
Now you want to make money providing fantasy products.... Well Sir the folks with the most spendable monies tend to favor highly detaied accurate models. 1:24 and 1:22.5 weren't the right scale, so they championed 1:20.5 and value accuracy over economy. 

I understand that this situation exists. And I wouldn't mind catering to this kind of precise scaling. But I don't want to necessarily get bogged down with that right off the bat. I'm just looking to get my feet wet right now.

Etsy is a site for artists. So people there are looking for art. Fantasy trains might be more appealing to them then precise scale. I think you already pointed out earlier that there is a lot of commercial competition when it comes to precise scale models? Maybe as an individual artist selling something more along the lines of artistic fantasy might be a bitter niche for me?

I don't need to worry about finding lots of customers. I'm not planning on becoming a high-volume retailer. This is more like artistic piece work. One piece of art at a time. 

I'll be opening up an Etsy shop anyway just to sell this vintage train stuff. And I'll probably sell a lot of this in "diorama form". So we'll see how that goes first.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I wish you well, I won't be following along nor will I read such long explanations. 

I will keep my 'misguided' concerns to myself, thank you. 

Been fun. 

J


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"Wow. Talk about a pessimistic group." No, realistic. 

"The same people that appreciate the amount of work you put into a building are also the same ones who can build it themselves, cheaper." Oh how true! 

I'll go with the aforementioned "pessimists". Been there, done that.


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Well so much for coming to this forum for inspiration. 

I see some other posters have already mentioned the acrimony that can be associated with some of the threads on these forums. 

Gee whiz. I'm sorry I bought up my private affairs. Had I known they were going to be met with such pessimistic opposition I wouldn't have ever mentioned it. 

Apparently I'm not nearly as concerned about how well my Esty adventure will pan out as some other people are. 

I guess there's three things we should never talk about; politics, religion, and money. 

I won't mention my financial hopes and dreams anymore if they are going to cause such negative pessimism. 

Just forget I ever mentioned the Etsy thing. I'll deal with that silently in the background and no one here needs to even know it's happening. How's that? 

In the meantime I'm open to some actual hobby advice. 

I'm going to paint my deck and use it as a temporary layout. Which color should I use from the following 5 colors. These are the only colors I have available so these are the only choices.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I might suggest you revisit your original "question" 

Make a trail car to house the battery and remote control unit. Get one of Del's inexpensive remote control systems, the one with the 3 button "fob". 

Buy some aluminum sectional track from Aristo. (you could even run track power, but you need better power anyway). 

Don't make your covered enclosure yet. See if you enjoy running trains. If not, you are not out a lot of money and you can sell everything your bought plus your trains and probably break even. 

Greg


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## Zeno (Apr 11, 2013)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 22 Apr 2013 08:14 PM 
I might suggest you revisit your original "question" 

See if you enjoy running trains.

Greg My original question was about making my own track. And I'm basically happy with the replies for that question. I'm going to look into using the 1/8" x 1/2" aluminum rails and fabricate my own track and possibly even my own turnouts. But for right now that project needs to be placed on a back burner. I knew that before I even asked the question. I'm not ready to lay the track right now anyway. I need to build elevated roadbeds first and this is going to be a major project that can easily take the best part of this summer. So whilst I'm waiting for that to materialize, I'm going to go ahead and get started on other related projects. I'm also taking BigRedOne's suggesting to make do with what I actually have for now. I'm going to create a small temporary layout on my deck. This layout won't be permanent, but it will get me started down the path I'm interested in.

You've mentioned "running trains". I actually have no interest in running trains. I realize this is a big attraction for many people who are into this hobby. I can really appreciate just how much fun that can be. I used to have a fairly large HO yard complete with roundhouse and turntable. I had a steel mill next to the yard, and a coal and ore mine at the other end of the house. So I was always making up trains and making imaginary runs to run the steel mill operation. That was indeed a lot of fun. 

But running trains isn't my focal point this time around. On the contrary, I'm hoping to make all my railroads run automatically. I would ultimately like to have three lines. Two passenger trains. Both of which I already have. And one logging train. And I have two of those as well. What I need are layouts, dioramas, and track, as well as lots of elevated roadbed. So all of that is going to take time to build.

So in the meantime I can build the needed dioramas for these layouts (some of which are going to be operational and animated). And I can also mess around with automating how the trains will interact with these automated dioramas. So there's tons of details that can be worked out on this temporary layout.

This the first time I've worked with G-scale trains. So I'm trying to get my "scale factors" in order to please me. Not necessarily to please anyone else. I'm not concerned with everything being in the "proper scale". But I do want consistency in whatever I decide to go with. 

In fact, I was just working with this scaling concept tonight and I just created the following graphic to get a feel for the how the different scales relate.










I would actually like to work with the 1:32 scale dioramas for various reasons. One reason being that I can fit more buildings into smaller spaces, which is important for my layouts. My layouts are going to be pretty small So smaller scenery will make them appear larger. Larger scenery will make the layouts look small. I wish the G-scale trains were 1:32 scale but they aren't. But there are some that are built to 1:24 which would be nicer for me. I don't mind the trains being slightly larger than the scenery. 

What I'm planning on doing next is to build some really crude buildings in 1:22, 1:24 and 1:32 scales. And then see how these different size buildings look on my temporary layout and how much space they take up.

So that's what I'm working on right now. I'm trying to get a feel for how I want to scale things on my layout. I also have some 1:24 and 1:32 scale people on the way. So when they arrive that will help me to decide which way I want to go. I like the 1:32 scale so much I almost feel like just building some slightly smaller trains to run on these G-scale tracks. (ha ha) 

A 1:28 scale train might not look too bad. In fact, I'll have to go make a 1:28 scale door and see how that compares to the rest my chart.


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## Hunter 12 (Oct 18, 2020)

WOW! I'm a newbe here. I didn't know a person could that it was a thing making the track. I thought you had to buy it. Cool. I'm an old rc guy of 50 years.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd start a new thread rather than tacking on to this one. Unfortunately John passed away in August, and despite some altercations, was very sorry to hear about his fight with cancer and the discomfort he was going through.

Hunter, do not be afraid to start new topics on your questions.

Greg


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