# Observations From a Train Show (Timonium)



## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I attended the train show at the Timonium Fair grounds just outside Baltimore, MD. It is a very large show. Nicely done. It is all scales but the overwhelming majority was HO. The was a small amount of G (Star Hobbies, Warrior Run). Mostly I got some DVDs and books. No G purchases. 

Lots of model railroaders are getting up in years. Some have passed on. More will soon be seeing the grass from the brown side. I perceived today that there were more boxes of used HO stuff. And many more "parts" boxes. Some of these were clearly marked as from estate sales. Our hobby is not a young one anymore. I foresee the coming years with large quantities of ordinary used HO stuff, and also Garden RR stuff. Will the market become saturated? Ordinary Athearn freight rolling stock was $3.00-$400. Scores of nice Athearn and Atlas diesels in the $25-$30 range. AHM cheaper. Granted most of this stuff is not DCC, What will happen in the next 5-10 years? 

I picked up a business card from an Estate Dealer that is somewhat local to me. The key is to put it some place that my wife can find it should my trains suddenly become part of my estate. I really have no plans for the disposal and certainly she has no clue. Anyway look for more used trains coming to shows near you. 

Tom


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

Everyone should read Marc's editorial in the latest Garden Railways, where he addresses the problem we all will face, or I should our wives and children will face when we "look at the grass from the brown side". I just moved a 600 ft railroad from Delaware to Utah, and that was scary enough. I have a lot of stuff that will have to be dealt with some day. 

Paul


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I think G gauge will be the future of model railroading in years to come. 
Why? 
Well with fewer and fewer young kids coming into the hobby and fewer young kids getting into anything but video games, HO will see a lot less sales as the interest in building layout will all but cease. Typically HO layouts are detailed. Maybe not full of scratch built buildings and scenery, but how many of these kids will progress from video games to building kits? As for O-Gauge, few houses today being built, have basments and garages are getting smaller so the chance of layouts being built are slim. 

So, why do I think G will be the future of modle railroading? Backyards whether big or small, give the husband and wife something to do together. Wives like nothing more than doing something with their husband. Tell your wife you'd like to build a flower garden in the back yard and their eyes will light up. Show her some flower gardens with a train running through it with some bird houses or other screnery and most will be more than willing to pitch in and help. 

So who is this group? It's not youg kids for sure. It's not going to be young newlyweds. It's going to be those couples that have reached a point in their lives where the kids are all out on their own. They now have time and spare money to afford not only the cost of a model railroad, but also the plants to build a railroad. 

With Bachmann building better quality product and Piko coming along with lower cost equipment, the starter sets they offer will allow new railroaders access to our hobby. 

We as experienced g gauge hobbist just need to keep providing the great photos of our garden layouts, locos, rolling stock and express the fact that we're having fun doing this.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

One other piece of advise. Make a spread sheet, mine in in EXCEL, with everything listed. My main categories, columns, are: manufacturer, model number, description (mogul C&S), date purchased, and price. There is also a column for comments, such as repainted and relettered, or on a couple of cars and an engine, purchased from Gary Coleman.

Unfortunately, I only started listing the date and price about 10 years ago. That leaves about 20 years of empty spaces in those columns.

Chuck


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

It's going to be those couples that have reached a point in their lives where the kids are all out on their own. 
Randy, 

While at Timonium (running trains on Warrior Run's layout,) I was approached by a middle-aged guy (40s?) who wanted to talk about which track to buy. He was a Lionel guy, but wanted to start in large scale with his young kids. He was going to lay a loop on the deck and see how it went. 

Thomas the Tank Engine has a lot of followers. [My Business Car had the Fat Controller on the rear platform, lording it over all those D&RGW trains.] 
Oh yes - you guys like photos!


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

We are in a hobby with a graying population. I am one of the "younger" members of my garden railroad club and I just turned 63. Out of 5 grandsons that I have exposed to model trains, only my 20 year old has any interest. This is because he is a modeler and builder. The others are tied to video games, I-Phones, and I-Pads. No interest. My nephew is 43 and is heavily into HO thanks to me giving him all mine. He is a CSX engineer, and has very little time for modeling. I see a glut of used trains on the market in 5 to 10 years.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

The crap-conomy has also added to the glut of stuff on the second hand market lately in all scales.


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## pethia (Jun 10, 2011)

What puzzles me is that I hear about decline of G scale. However, when I look at the cost of G scale stuff on ebay, I scratch my head. Used g scale everything is going for top dollar.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Randy no room indoors, few basements, and it's my opinion also that putting track on the ground outside is a faster and easier start than building benchwork. 

Regards, Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Funny I've always found ways and room to do indoor G and having fun at the same time .


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I've heard the same laments about the decline of the hobby since I was 5. Everyone was _sure_ that by the time I got to the age I am now, the hobby would be dead because "us kids" were too involved in video games, etc. to carry on. Yet today, when I go to the hobby shop, train shows, and interact with people on the various model RR forums (not just large scale), many are people my age - 30s, 40s--the same folks "they" said would never be interested all those years ago. When I was in my 20s, I was pretty much the only person in my age group involved in the various clubs I belonged to. Now that I'm... well... "older," I find more and more people getting into the hobby who are my contemporaries. It's not that they suddenly "found" the hobby, rather they now have the time and money to pursue something that they've always had something of an interest in. I personally don't think there's been much of a change in the demographics of the hobby at all over the years--at least not one that isn't generally mirrored by similar changes in the overall population. It's always skewed heavily towards those who hold dual NMRA/AARP memberships. So long as kids love trains--and there's ZERO evidence of _that_ waning--I think model railroading in general has a healthy long-term outlook. You're never going to see a mass influx of teens, 20-somethings in the hobby. They're simply not wired towards those kinds of pursuits. You'll always have a small handful, but that's it. Give 'em another 20 years and they'll be back. 

As for large scale and outdoor railroading? I do see it becoming more and more part of the landscape in terms of those who take a passing fancy to the hobby. I see circles of track set up on decks and in flower beds becoming the new version of ovals of HO track set up on Ping-Pong tables. In terms of more "serious" modeling, I think the small scales will always have the overwhelming majority--especially as what we call "modern" railroading becomes more and more the predominant interest. You simply can't do a 100-car coal drag with 8 units on the point justice in a typical suburban back yard, and maintaining the amount of track needed to do so is definitely the playground for those who lack family commitments. There will always be the contingent that manages to pull it off, but I don't see that crowd becoming much more significant in terms of the overall scope of the hobby than they are right now. 

Later, 

K


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

It's the economy. There are a lot more sellers than buyers at the moment. If it came down to a choice between trains and continuing sleeping indoors, I think most of us would choose... trains? ( or not)

As for estate planning - rather than detailed lists to get lost (or to be used against you in divorce proceedings!), isn't it simpler to just give your significant other a short list of names of folks you trust to help her liquidate your crap without taking advantage? (Yes, you probably have to agree to help theirs, too - which means NO COVETING!)


My darling daughter had obviously been listening to her mother too much, as she told me last fall that she'd just 'junk' everything... My response was short and to the point: I told her, "Only if you're an idiot!"... Followed by, "YOU don't have to worry, KIM has my instructions." Kim knows who to call for each general area of my shtuff, and she also knows how to use fleabait herself - if it comes down to that. Plus she pretty much knows what I have, anyway.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I think the question is: what are we doing to keep the hobby alive?

I picked up on this thread yesterday after returning from Phoenix (Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, Lakeshore Limited) mostly because of the mention of Timonium. For about ten years I used to go to the ham radio show at the same fairgrounds. Way back when, it was three buildings: Cow Palace, Home Center and...whatever they called the main building... plus a huge outdoor flea market. Last time I was there, it was half of the Cow Palace and half of the outdoor area. Ham radio interest is nothing like it once was.

The question among hams was the same: what are we doing to keep the hobby alive. What are we doing to interest NEW members? The answer was pretty much - nothing.

Best examples:
- many clubs' annual show often had a contest to find the oldest ham in attendance. I knew of only one club that ever had a contest for the YOUNGEST ham.
- I knew of only ONE club that had classes for kids to build an actual radio that works without batteries (a crystal set).

ALL the other shows were just a bunch of old guys talking about how it used to be, while selling their old Heathkits.

SO.....what's your club doing?

Do they hold open houses at members layouts? Do they have a "publicity" person who sends notices of their events to the local newspapers and radio stations? Do they even look for new members? Do they make the club worth belonging to? Or is it just eight or ten old guys complaining about the same old stuff?

The club nearest to me that publicizes annual open houses at each member's home is 75 miles away. I'm not aware of anyone in my city having an open house. 

About 5-6 years ago, long before I actually decided to start my own outdoor layout, I drove a good fifty miles to what I'd heard was a big "G" event that was mostly live steam. I was there about fifteen minutes, and drove back. I felt like a total outsider. There was no "welcome" table. No nothing. Just a big bunch of old guys and their wives mostly just sitting around talking. A few engines were running - maybe once around the loop then picked up and carried to the repair area, etc. Totally uninteresting, even to a guy who had a big basement HO layout twenty years before. No one noticed I was there, nor did they care.

If that's how your club operates, you'll end up just like most ham clubs: wondering why no one cares.


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

JackM says: _There was no "welcome" table. No nothing. Just a big bunch of old guys and their wives mostly just sitting around talking. _

Sounds like a lot of churches.












I know...DO NOT talk about religion and politics. What is true in model railroading is true in so many organizations and churches too. The ability to reach out, share some good news, and develop relationships is what keeps the organization/activity vibrant. 


Sure there will be new model railroaders entering the scene. But here is the deal. Mass produced HO models really came on strong in the late 50s and 60s. Say 50 years ago. Those guys were then in their teens,20s, 30s, and 40s. Add 50 years to that and the 50 years of collecting has come to an end. There will be a glut on the market of mass produced HO in coming years....just a fact of life. 


If we do it right, that glut of mass produced trains on the market will make it very easy for the younger generation to get in to trains. Reach out, share the good news, and develop some relationships. Since there is a glut on the market, how about if I gave all that HO sitting in the basement to a group of younger guys and help them start a club? Hmmmmmmmmmm. 


Tom


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## CJGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking for my generation, (born in 88') we will come around when we settle down and find that working on the car is frustrating,expensive,and the wife doesn't approve. Video games are just a fact of innovation and progress, I'm sure the older generation was sure the hobby would die out since the youngsters only wanted to watch the howdy doody TV show and play cowboys&Indians. 

I was gone from the hobby from about 17 to 22, now I'm slowly getting back into it, because I'm married and almost done with college. 

I think a major problem is that SOME clubs and SOME people don't understand my generation, and thus they don't know how to connect and make that younger person feel welcome. I'm very lucky that my club is not like that.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Here in Rochester, NY our largest annual train show is put on, very professionally, by the college students at the RIT train club:

RITMRC


Large amount of people in the 18 to 25 year old range into model railroading..
im not worried about the hobby disappearing..


Scot


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

For starters a LOT of organizations are as described by JackM, Ignorant to the mistakes they are making by NOT interacting with the folks that come to see their show or display or open house or whatever. SOMEONE needs to be designated to put a PR spin on things while the rest try their best to keep things running. The Masonic Lodge I belong too realized that a few years ago and we are now bringing in memebers pretty regularly and I am becoming one of the "old pillars" in lodge. I'm only 45! We are holding activities that those guys are interested in as well...get them involved and give them ownership of the activity and they will surprise you! We had an old projection screen in the lodge room. I purchased a cheap digital projector and we play video games on the big screen. With it wired into the sound system in the lodge room we got amazing sound and get everyone involved. After we play games for a bit we then show a movie. We try to match the themes of the games and movies usually. 

Sean, it's not just the older folks that have trouble relating with younger folks. Middle aged folks do too..... In the end it is a give and take...there is a common ground but both sides need to work with it and on it. 

Wish I lived a bit closer to Scot and the Genesee Group! I was in Rochester on a business trip almost 10 years ago now and at the time they had a store front in a Mall to use as "club" space. Most everyone wecomed me and spent some time talking with me that night. Probably one of the most enjoyable times I've ever visited a club like that and felt welcomed. 

The group that IS closer to me sadly is not as welcoming thus far. I've made it to one meeting and 2 open houses, one of which I was invited to run my live steam locos at, Thanks again Matt or Leftyfretguy. Still making it to their meetings is difficult for me at over an hour drive one way, with a confilct of another meeting usually that I'm supposed to be at as an officer, and the shows they set up for are sometimes just as tough. STILL I would join to be supportive monetarily and when and if my time allows. Sadly they have a rule that I must be able to work or attend a minimum number of meetings, shows, or open houses. That's the killer right there for me. I am involved in 3 other organizations (Mason's, Amaranth, & SCA)with two young kids in the house, work full time & also take care of my mother who lives with us as well. Wife is back to school currently 3 nights a week. the SCA meeting falls on the same nights that the WNYGRS holds their meetings. Many other folks my age are in the same situation or similar. Kids playing sports, etc. and or working multiple jobs means many can afford the cash and some time but not the amount of time they proscribe. Maybe eventually but when I got into this hobby I was working at a hobby shop and was exposed to it several times a week and got my socialization part of the hobby fix now this forum and a few others satisfies that for me for now. When I started buying trains they were always going to be a "someday" hobby.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

As Kevin pointed out, the enduring popularity of Thomas the tank engine says a lot about the future of the hobby. Generations of kids remember those dioramas and trying to recreate them on the living room rug. My daughter was enthralled when I bought her an HO scale "Emily" loco and cars, and ran it around a few times on a DC powered oval. She hasn't got the bug for it, exactly, but she has happy memories. 



I've thought for a long time that there were two keys to making the large scale hobby more popular. First would be having battery powered starter sets. I don't run on batteries, but for more and more people battery powered stuff is the norm. Aristo and USAT ought to make starter sets with battery power. Put them right outside and go. That way you could use cheaper rail--plastic rail would have problems, but metal rail at $10 a foot has problems too. I think Aristo is headed that way, or they were. 



Second would be control systems that incorporate elements of train sim software. A generation used to video games would have no problem with running trains that fed back information, like dispatcher's orders or fuel consumption or wheel slip, engine heat/steam pressure, etc. That's probably too expensive right now, but consider what even a cheap smartphone can do compared to the typical train throttle. I love DCC, and the sophistication is really fun, but it's 30 year old technology. I suspect a battery powered starter set with some degree of operational feedback, some degree of sim-like features, would do well. Users could play out scenarios, like a delivery schedule or a runaway or a heavy train. They would want some degree of control over sound, because look how many kids toys have sound built in. 



Whenever I make this suggestion some people get irritated and think it's overcomplicating things. Could be.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Mass produced HO models really came on strong in the late 50s and 60s. Say 50 years ago. Those guys were then in their teens,20s, 30s, and 40s. Add 50 years to that and the 50 years of collecting has come to an end. There will be a glut on the market of mass produced HO in coming years....just a fact of life. 
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Sure the "old stuff" is hitting the swap meet tables--it has been for decades. But there are many considerations... 

1) The "old stuff" doesn't run for garbage. The locomotives have large open-frame motors and dubious (at best) gears. Remotoring only goes so far. Today's locomotives are far more smooth and reliable than anything produced 30 years ago. 
2) The rolling stock has comparatively crude details, and often truck-mounted couplers which have been _de passe_ for 30 years. Consider early LGB and Kalamazoo to what's being produced in large scale today. It's a night-and-day difference. 
3) The "old stuff" is models of old prototypes. A 40' box car is as foreign to a kid today as steam was to me when I was a kid--even more so since steam was (and is still) running on tourist railroads. You're not going to find models of modern prototypes in those white elephant boxes--at least not for another few decades. 

I used to have a lot of old Bowser and Athearn models back when I was doing HO scale. They were "old" technology even in the 80s, and they never ran well. Atlas and Kato came on the market with their really smooth diesels, and even at three to four times the price of the Athearn stuff, they flew off the shelves. They were just so much more detailed and smooth running that people gladly paid the price. Before long (but after I had gotten out of the scale), that technology finally made its way to steam locomotives. Had I stayed in, I would very easily have replaced all of my Bowser locos with the new ones. The small scales are no different than the large scales in that regard. We want smooth operation and scale fidelity from our models, and let the manufacturers hear it when they don't deliver. There's a reason 1st generation Bachmann 4-6-0s languish on swap-meet tables for $20 while the newest ones leave the same table at $150. Our expectations have matured along with the hobby. The old stuff may be cool from a historical perspective, but in terms of operations? We want far more than what they could offer. 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Many other folks my age are in the same situation or similar. Kids playing sports, etc. and or working multiple jobs means many can afford the cash and some time but not the amount of time they proscribe 
I got back into trains when my son was born (just the excuse I needed.) But I didn't do very much until they left for college! 


First would be having battery powered starter sets 
The El Cheapo stuff (New Scientific?) chinese sets sold at the supermarket at Xmas are pretty good for kids to play with. I have one that smokes, makes lots of noise, and runs quite decently around the Xmas tree using 18" radius curves (I had to take the traction tires off one side to get it round!) 

For $30 they can play for a year or two then you buy them another and they keep their grubby paws off your live steamer!


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## cjoseph (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm somewhat new to the train world and I have attended the last 2 shows at the fairgrounds. It was a great experience. I come from PA so I stayed at the Residence Inn Marriott in Hunt Valley. I believe it was exit 20 off of 83. That is by far the best hotel I have ever stayed at. I highly recommend that hotel and it's only a couple miles from the fairgrounds. I know I will be staying there for the October show!


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