# couplers



## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I am wondering what couplers to use and am looking for suggestions. My stuff will be 1:20.3 and 1:22.5 scale, most of it will probably be Bachmann but I have some LGB as well.

I will be doing operations with manual uncoupling and intend to use some type of tool to work the couplers (dental pick, homemade tool, etc.).

I do not think the hook and loop couplers lend themselves to operations from what I have read. I think that leaves me with Bachmann, LGB and Kadee.

I am not too awful concerned with exact scale-ness so a bit of over/under-size is acceptable.

Are there any downsides to using the Bachmann knuckle couplers?

I understand the Kadees are somewhat difficult to manually uncouple?

Please give me your experiences and opinions and thoughts and recommendations, I appreciate them all.

Thx!


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## Dick Friedman (Aug 19, 2008)

I had to standardize my couplers because I didn't pay attention to the fact that different manufacturers use different kinds of couplers, and if they stay together it's purely accidental <LOL>! You are correct about non-knuckle couplers; they are designed to stay together at all costs! I like the Kadee #1 couplers, but if you use the coupler you have the most of, you'll control your cost of conversion. In order to reduce the cost to me, I bought Kadees one or two sets at a time, and only put one on each car until I had one on every car. Then I added the second. The #1's are probably undersize for the scales you are working in. For my 1:32 railroad they are fine. They only uncouple because of poor track and have been very reliable for me.
BTW, I body mount all my couplers. If you plan to do a lot of couplling/uncouplling, body mounting is probably better. After all, that's how the big boys do it.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Dick,
yes I hope to be able to body mount, but i will have pretty sharp curves so it may depend upon the car.

How do the Kaydees work for you? do you manually uncouple for operations?

this brings up another question along with my original set of questions:

can body and truck mount couplers be mixed?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

A narrow flat-bladed screwdriver is good for manually uncoupling Kadee couplers. Gently insert the blade between the joined knuckles and twist -- cars uncoupled.

I am using truck mounted couplers and the "G" sized Kadees, but I only run short trains. The photo shows about the longest train I usually run.










Best,
David Meashey


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## k225 (Aug 20, 2014)

This video shows narrow gauge operations during the Invasion on Fred Mill's Ironwood and Peter's Pond & Western Railroad. This is an operating railroad using body mounted #1 Kadees uncoupling is either by the five finger method (as shown by Jan) but more commonly using a screwdriver usually a Phillips without any problem. To checkout info about OVGRS including kadee installation their site is http://ovgrs.org/


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Helmut, you did not mention budget.

If money is no object, Kadees for sure.

If sort of an object, believe it or not, I'd buy Aristo couplers.

If money is a real concern, old hook and loop.

All of these couplers can work, all can be manually operated.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx guys. Much appreciated.

Greg,
money is always a concern. 

How do the Aristo's look at G scale vs. 1:29? Are they oversized for 1:29 anyway?

nobody has mentioned sticking with Bachmann.  considering that most of the stuff I have and will probably get is Bachmann and they probably have those already - are they really not that good?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Most of the mechanical knuckle couplers were mounted very low - so that they would uncouple with the LGB portable uncoupler. This means that any twigs, pebbles, acorns, etc. which can end up between the rails on your track also stand a good chance of working as an uncoupler. Bachmann's couplers are available separately and at a reasonable price. Perhaps your track will be indoors. I just wanted you to be aware of the built-in disadvantage to most of the couplers that come supplied with the current rolling stock.

The low stance of the manufacturers' mechanical knuckles can easily be seen in the first photo (Lionel LS in this example). In the second photo you can see that even truck-mounter Kadees are raised up "out of harm's way." Again, I just want to make you aware of the options. I started with mechanical knuckles, but just got tired of ramming the caboose with the locomotive because some debris between the rails uncoupled cars mid-train while it was out of sight.



















Hope this helps,
David Meashey


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Debris that is higher than the rail head will be an issue for almost anything, and each of the couplers have their positive and negative points.

The Aristo couplers were a pretty good compromise, and were cheap relatively. You might be able to purchase them used from people that changed to Kadee.

Hook and loop work well, but are hard to uncouple, and you have to think about single or double hooks.

There are other knuckle couplers, like the USAT ones and the AML ones, neither of those I would recommend. The Bachmann knuckles get mixed reviews, I personally don't think much of them. LGB knuckles will be too expensive to retrofit.

This is not a simple question. For a few cars, like you indicated, I'd buy inexpensive cars and either find a way to get hook and loop for free, or go Kadee. I know it sounds crazy, free vs. the most expensive couplers. 

To me, bad couplers are like bad track, it is no fun running trains when they derail or come uncoupled all the time.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx again guys.

Dave that is quite a difference. Maybe I should get a few kadees and Aristos and see how they might work for me. i already have hook and loop and Bachmann.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

BTW, it seems you are perhaps a Tolkein fan as well!


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Busted! Yes, my stock is built for the Brandywine & Gondor Railroad, built during the Fourth Age of Middle Earth. I thought it would be fun to combine both of my interests. Shown below is my scratch-built hatchling dragon transport.




























Best,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

well I have accumulated several cars now (mostly LGB for now), and these hook and loop couplers have to go!

Is there a well known or standard package of Kadee couplers I can buy to retrofit onto LGB cars? Or does it depend upon the actual car? I do want to try body mounting before i resort to truck mounting.

Thx!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

There are 2 kadee choices, #1 (small for 1/29 or 1/32) or G (120/1/24).
Since the G are much bigger they stay coupled on rough track better.
Truck mounting does not work well for long trains as the coupler will move up or down and uncouple, body mounts will not do this.
Go to Kadee and download the catalog which tells what couplers fit what rolling stock best, great for many different engines, but does not go into changing truck to body conversions.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx Dan, will check out their catalog.

alternatively I am considering a link and pin system or something close. i don't see my RR interchanging with another in its backstory, or I will do an earlier time period.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Guys, I could not really find anything on a comparison of the Kadee original type couplers vs the new AAR type E couplers. can somebody enlighten me?

does anyone else do operations with these Kadees? not too difficult to undo, even for 'guests'?

i did try searching eBay for Aristocraft couplers, but cannot really find any number of them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The newer versions of Kadee look better, compatible with the older versions. Get the new ones.

Yes, Kadee is all about operations, read about their delayed uncoupling.

Magnets will do it.

Better for operations (not counting manual uncoupling).

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Greg,
Thx! But I do want to do manual uncoupling. From previous posts it does not seem impossible, I am just concerned about guests. I think manual uncoupling would work far better in that case, and it simulates the train crew doing the uncoupling.

That said, just a magnet paced between the ties? or an electromagnet? i read the uncoupling page on Kadde's website, but I guess I need to see it in action/try it myself.

also, unfortunately, it looks like the new AAR E style couplers are not available for a good chunk of the rolling stock I have.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

They are very simple to manually uncouple... I like operations without touching the cars... 

There is really one coupler that is used for body mount... what you need is available in the new style.

Read up a bit more... go on youtube to see how they operate... actually they are one of the easiest couplers to operate manually.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thx again Greg. I am rethinking my body mounting desire with the tight curves and all.

Pretty sure I want to go with Kadee's.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

When installing kadee's, watch out for those teeny-tiny springs! I launched several into oblivion.

Anymore, unless I have no other choice, I stick with Bachmann knuckle couplers. (Mostly because the bulk of my rolling stock in Bachmann.) Most of the remainder are Lionel - I picked up a few items from them along the way. Bachmann and Lionel couplers are compatible. Bachmann and Aristocraft couplers are not.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Dave..

Hmm...flying, flame breathing dragon inside a wooden cage with no roof. Perhaps the designer had too much of Bree's finest ale?


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Thinker;

Uh, I believe that I noted it as a hatchling dragon. Hatchling dragons cannot breath fire or fly as yet. They are also easily tamed and trained. The (relatively) little critters are being moved via these cars to a training facility where they will become Gondor's "Air Force."

That's my story, and I am sticking to it!

Cheers,
David Meashey


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thinker,
Thx.

All,
It was mentioned that debris on the track is a downside to Bachmann couplers, but the simulated air hose thing on the Kadees seems just as low. does that cause any issues? i do see how it could definitely be harder for them to come accidentally uncoupled - the Bachmann only takes a light touch. too bad that it not on the top of the coupler!


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## Mike Flea (Apr 8, 2014)

My experience with the Bachmann's are good, and lately I've been switching over to the newer style metal couplers, in which the uncoupler button doesn't depress as easily, but even with the older plastic couplers, I've not had any issues.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You can cut the pins off of the Kadee couplers with no ill effects. They're only good for those using magnetic uncoupling. I've been using the Kadee #1 couplers for 30 years. They're fantastic. Manual uncoupling is very easy. For his railroad, my dad built long uncoupling tools, which are nothing more than a 3' wood dowel with a brass blade around 1/4" wide by 1/16" thick attached at the end. The end of this blade is rounded so it can easily be inserted into the space between the knuckles on the couplers. Just twist and the cars are free from one another. The tool can also be used to throw the switches, so the operator rarely has to bend over at all to switch the cars in the yards.

I use the same couplers on my railroad, though I'm actually about 50:50 between the Kadee #1 couplers and the Accucraft 1:32 couplers. I built working cut levers for the Accucraft couplers, so most of the time when I need to uncouple, I "pull the pin" as per the prototype. That's a bit more bending over, but at the moment, I'm young enough to where it doesn't present any issues. Give me 20 years, and I'll likely be rethinking that...

Later,

K


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have set up over 6 engines to remote uncouple via my wireless. Now to get several cars set up with servos. Massoth makes a light board with a servo capability and several function key outputs.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, my goal is to add Kadee remote control couplers to a number of locos, although I have mostly QSI, so will have to add another decoder. On my Zimo locos, should be no sweat.

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I have read about elsewhere and though of having the 'uncoupling stick'. seems like it is a great idea for several types of couplers.

yeah, i thought about remote couplers but that removes the brakeman uncoupling simulation, and in my mind I kinda want that - at least for now.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Kadees are very easy to use, since there is no "trigger" underneath like Aristo and most others, you just separate the couplers with a flat blade inserted between the couplers and twisted.

Most others have to be released from the underside.

Also, you can just lift one car end slightly, and move the cars apart.

Greg

1,226


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Yeah - definitely appealing. I have a couple on the way for some hands on.

Would you recommend G or #1? Are the G's still oversize for 1:22.5 scale?

for body mounting, since I am doing tight radius, would the flex bracket help? or should I just go with truck mounting? or try a combination of body on the short cars and truck on longer cars?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I would recommend the G scale ones, they scale a little large, but more forgiving in keeping coupled over our not so perfect track.

What's your minimum diameter again? Under 8 foot will be tough on body mounts unless you have very short cars.

Other than that, do not worry.

Greg 1,223


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

definitely going to be under 8'. i am trying to get everything to be workable on 4' diameter, but when i put track down i am going to try and do 5' or greater.

can i mix body mount on short (6" or so, 2 axle) and truck mount on longer cars?

or should i just stick with truck mount? i guess i can get a few of each and experiment on the temporary indoor layout, but that will not have the imperfections of the outdoor track.

i did already purchase a Kadee coupler height gauge.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be sure of no confusion, all the numbers in your post are DIAMETER, right?

I would not recommend body mount under 8 foot diameter, except on extremely short cars, like 2 axle ones, but you said 6", other than small ore cars, where are you getting 6" long cars?

Greg 1,222


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Greg,
yes, diameter. 2' radius. that is R1, yes?

i am only estimating since I am not at home right now. but I have a couple of flat cars and a side tip ore car that *seem* about 6" long. i will measure when I get home.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

pic of my small cars, actually a bit less than 6" length.


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Helmut;

Cars that small should have no problem on 2 foot radius curves with body mount couplers. My smallest caboose was built from a ScanKit wayside tool shed. It has body mounted Kadee 831 couplers and can still run on LGB 1 curves with ease.










Best wishes for your project,
David Meashey


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The remote uncoupling is a cool novelty, but before going through the trouble of installing remote couplers on your locos, count the number of times in an operating session you actually uncouple from the locomotive compared to uncoupling between other cars to see if it's worth the trouble. I installed one on one of my locos, but seldom actually used it because the instances of switching out the car right behind the loco were few and far between. The chain has since broken between servo and uncoupler, and I've not really felt any benefit to fixing it. I'm going to replace the control electronics in that loco in the coming year, and when I do, I'll pull the uncoupler. It's just not something I use.

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I like the idea of simulating the brakeman walking to the cars to be uncoupled and doing it.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, I run the small LGB cars and HLW kit cars on my 29 inch DIAMETER circle. Engine is a slug I built with the USA short motor block. All USA Trains metal wheels (needed for tight curves) and body mounted kadee G couplers.

My track is 1 piece of 8 foot flex track bent into a circle. Only one clamp per real, so no power issues!!
In December I place my Christmas tree in the middle and run my Christmas loads on cars.


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

I will start another post for specifics when I am ready, but it seems the Kadee's per their online and downloadable application charts do not make the new AAR E type for LGB 2 axle cars, they only list the older style. is there a cross list or should i just email them and see?

can the older style and new style AAR E types be mixed? i.e. interoperable? i think the are.

Now an entirely different path: Is there a decent, easy enough for most people (including non-model-railroaders) method to simulate link and pin for operations?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No simulation needed, get real links and pins.

If you are going body mount, they are available, are you looking at truck mount for your 2 axle cars?

Greg


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

no, just body mount i imagine (for link and pin). but they seem like they are quite fiddly, just as in RL.

anyone know of a method to simulate them that is not so fiddly?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was talking the Kadees for your LGB cars. 

You don't go L&P unless you WANT fiddly!!!!

Just get the Kadees, so your stuff will interoperate.

Greg


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I run standard LGB hook and loop on my European equipment, and LGB knuckles on my USA style equipment. Yes the LGB knuckle is way oversize, but it works reliably in the garden and is a drop in fit to the trucks. The 2 axle cars take some modification for other couplers due to the center buffer common to European narrow gauge equipment. This is one reason I stick with thier hook and loop. Those are also dead on reliable in the garden with less that perfect track and sharp corners. Mike


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Mike,
do you do operations or train watching? to me it seems the hook and loop are difficult to uncouple?

Thx.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Hook and loops are very easy to uncouple.
Fly swatter works great, and so does a tongue depressor.
At times I have used the backside of my jack knife blade.
And Playmobiles are even easier as they have a pad on top of the couple to aid in uncoupling.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Never thought of a flyswatter! I've seen folks use a putty knife on a longer handle to uncouple the hook-and-loops from a standing position.

The old and new-style Kadee couplers are fully compatible. They just look a bit different. The new style are slightly skinnier--think of what might happen if you were to starve a coupler. The working faces are mostly the same size, but the rest of it has been reduced for a more prototypical appearance. 

Having said that, I use a mix of Kadee #1 and Accucraft 1:32 couplers on my stuff. The new Kadee couplers will slip through the knuckle of a closed Accucraft coupler when sufficient force is applied, whereas the original will not. There's just enough difference in the geometry of the coupler where that happens. That's not an issue with mating two Kadees, as the knuckles have a little lip on the end which keeps the knuckles from slipping open under tension. 

Later,

K


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

Thanks guys. I will consider it, but not sure I can 'live' with the hook and loop.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

how does the tongue depressor work with double hooks?

Greg 1,176


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## hlfritz (Apr 6, 2017)

yeah, i was kinda wondering about double hooks, uncoupling simultaneously and moving the cars apart enough to not let the hooks engage again.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Use the blade to push down on the hooks between the cars, you'll lower both hooks at the same time. Start moving the train apart. Once the hooks are clear of the loop, remove the uncoupling blade. No different than one hook, really, except if you're not quick enough pulling out the blade, the hooks will catch on the blade until you remember to pull it out of the way.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If the loops are overlapping this does not seem to work, I think you have to push the cards apart first.

Greg 1,146


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I pick up the car a litle and just turn it slightly to uncouple. Or if I want it to stay on the track I use the back side of my large pocket knife. Tongue depressor is great as is a rigid fly swatter.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

The loops shouldn't be able to overlap; they're designed to push against each other at the face of the loop and should all be at the same height (3/4" above the railhead). If they are overlapping--because most hook-and-loop couplers are truck mounted--you're likely to be having some derailment issues. 

Later,

K


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