# Sound for New Bachmann Peter Witt Trolley



## jhking52 (May 6, 2011)

What sound decoder (DCC) would you recommend for installation in the new Bachmann Peter Witt trolley? 
From what I can learn none of the main four (ESU, Massoth, QSI, or Zimo) has an exact sound set. I can live with the maybe inaccurate-for-prototype sounds available.

John in Maryland


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I used a QSI, and tweaked a GG-1 file and it came out pretty good. 

Greg


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Hmmm. 

How did you use a QSI,tweaked GG-1 file, and it came out pretty good? 

The silly trolleys aren't due until October (PRC speak for two days after Christmas).


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The sounds came out pretty good... ran it in a PCC car, but what I mean is that the QSI sounded pretty good. 

Since the new bachmann car uses a different interface standard, many people may chop the sockets out to make room.. 

Greg


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02 Sep 2013 12:07 AM 

Since the new bachmann car uses a different interface standard, many people may chop the sockets out to make room.. 

Greg Did you just say "cut and throw"?

Can I quote you on that?

S&K must be burning up the phone lines about now.

TOC


----------



## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By jhking52 on 31 Aug 2013 08:29 AM 
What sound decoder (DCC) would you recommend for installation in the new Bachmann Peter Witt trolley? 
From what I can learn none of the main four (ESU, Massoth, QSI, or Zimo) has an exact sound set. I can live with the maybe inaccurate-for-prototype sounds available.

John in Maryland


John 
There are several restored prototype Peter Witts curently running so recording accurate sound files should not be a problem. Tha actual prorotype is running at the Baltimore street car Mesuem.

Several of the popular sound manufacturers have expressed interest in producing a more accurate sound version but it remains to be seen which ones actually follow through.

The closest sound set currently in the market are the decoders made by ESU.

Stan


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just having a single recording of a trolley is very far from having a properly looped and processed sound file that will work in a sound decoder. 

It takes a lot of work to make a recording that can even be used and processed to work in a sound decoder. 

It takes several individual microphones to record all the separate sounds. 

It takes a sound engineer to process the sounds to get rid of noise, etc. 

Then you have to loop the sounds for the motor, etc. 

Then you have a lot more work to do. 

So, I appreciate the fact that the prototype still exists and COULD be recorded. 

There's precious few people out there who have the resources to record sounds and process them. 

So, I start with seeing if I can make something existing work. 

Regards, Greg


----------



## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg 

For a manufacturer to get a very accurate version of a sound sample it is best if the prototype exists. In this case there are several running including the actual prototype of the Bachmann Peter Witt streetcar. It is not all that hard to get excellent recordings. I can say that from experience recording and providing samples to various manufacturers. 

Several manufacturers provide the ability for the end user to load user supplied sound samples. While quite effective I do agree that manufacturer processed sound samples are superior. 

The current ESU old streetcar sound is the closest sound I have currently found and I look forward to several manufacturers adding even better sound files to their sound libraries in the commng months. 

Stan


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Stan, we have been down this path before. 

You overestimate the quality of your sound samples. I even have talked to sound engineers that work on G scale decoders that have your "samples" and stated that they were basically unusable. 

Please don't lecture me about a topic that you are not well versed in and I am. I can bring people forward that will take strong affront to your statement: " It is not all that hard to get excellent recordings. " 

You can get a recording that is suited to an endless loop and running on a Dallee or Revo, or as a background sound, but nothing that would suit an ESU, Zimo, Massoth, QSI, or Phoenix. 

Of course I know that you can put user sounds in as a playable file.... but the ability to have the sound follow the speed, load, and to have all the individual sounds play separately, that takes individual microphones, sound processing, loop matching and a single recording of composite sounds is just not useable. 

Greg


----------



## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg

I bow to your expertise. I record in stereo at 96 kHz/24-bit using a high end professional grade Sony Portable Linear PCM Recorder and indeed most of the recordings are worthless because of some background noise, composit sounds, or non optimial settings due to a poor guess of the expected sound level. Out of 100 recordings only 1 or two have samples that are of high quality that are usable (and have been used) by the high end vendors. Thats why I record much much more then needed. 

I have a lot of fun recording sounds even though indeed most (but not all) are not usable for sound loops. And sometimes I am lucky such as getting high grade excellent recordings of both of the horns on the EBT, M1. I never even knew it had two different ones before the recording session.

If I am lucky perhaps I will get 463s whistle next week.

Me thinks you need to broaden your horizon and lighten up a little. It is a hobby afteralll. And many of us have useful information we can share in a positive fashion.

Stan


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the background noise can be a problem to filter out, especially random sounds. 

The composite sounds are the most difficult, and so you mike them individually, not in stereo, since you have a mike "right on" the device making the sound. 

This is not to diminish the fun of listening to a "composite" recording to hear the sounds for pleasure. 

It's just that, for example, a QSI has 32 independent sounds that come one, and a multi channel mixer (now stereo to suit the 2 independent amplifiers). 

The reason I reacted is that the topic is to get sound for a trolley, and it's not as simple as getting a wave file of a trolley and putting it into a decoder... when you talk about "user defined" sounds, this is just the simple playback of a sound file, but your response IMPLIED that this is the same as the multichannel, processed, and looped sounds used in a "real" sound system. 

This is why I personally "tweaked" a sound file, than got a recording of a trolley. 

You and I know the details, but it's "danger" of giving the impression to John (the op) that a "user sound file" will give the same results as the output of a quality sound decoder with the proper files and processing. 

Regards, Greg 

p.s. all that said, maybe we can talk someone into doing the proper multichannel recordings... unfortunately, it does not seem the Phoenix or Soundtraxx are real active lately. Zimo, ESU, Massoth all use user-contributed files, and I know QSI has their hands full getting new higher resolution recordings for the Titan.


----------



## jhking52 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks to all for the interesting comments and discussion. 

John


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

I am also looking for Peter Witt trolley recordings with start, stop and so forth in wav or mp3 file format. 

If I can locate this recording, Dr. Joachim Dietz will install in on a Dietz sound module and make it available for sale to us. 

I tried to contact the Scranton Electric Trolley museum to find any recordings at http://ectma.org/, but they do not answer the telephone and may be closed for Winter. 

Ditto trying to get through to The Shore Line Trolley Museum at http://shorelinetrolley.org/. 

Has anyone had better luck than me here in finding a non-copyrighted recording?


----------



## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Orange Empire Railway Museum 
http://www.oerm.org/ 

Bets are, with all the trolleys they have, plus functional overhead, these can be obtained. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrqT38LKN4A


----------



## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Have you tried this museum? 

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/


----------



## StanleyAmes (Jan 3, 2008)

The prototype for the model is at the Baltimore street car mesuem. Car 6119 * http://www.baltimorestreetcar.org/carstock.html*

http://www.baltimorestreetcar.org/

Perhaps they have some good recordings you could use.

I may make it down there in December or January and if they are running the Peter Witt at that time I will get some recordings. However in December they are having their Santa specials and may not be operatng the Peter Witt and there would be a lot of background noise.

If I do get down there and they are running the Peter Witt, I will let you all know.

Stan

Please email me exacetly which specific sounds you desire

Update: the Baltimore Peter Witt is down till sometime early in 2014


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Here is the reply back from Baltimore Streetcar Museum: 


Mr. Del Monte,



Sorry, we do not have any recordings of any of the cars.



Kind regards,



Mark Hurley

For the Baltimore Streetcar Museum


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By Ltotis on 19 Nov 2013 06:01 PM 
Have you tried this museum? 

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/ 



I just sent a web inquiry to the person in collections there.


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 19 Nov 2013 04:26 PM 
Orange Empire Railway Museum 
http://www.oerm.org/ 

Bets are, with all the trolleys they have, plus functional overhead, these can be obtained. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrqT38LKN4A 

While I did not see any trolley's listed as Peter Witt, I sent still them an e-mail asking for sound recordings.


----------



## harvey (Dec 30, 2008)

Halton County Radial Railway in Ontario, Canada have some Peter Witt cars within their collection and I understand these are operated on a regular basis throughout the summer time.
This may be a source of obtaining a correct sound bite.
Cheers.


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 19 Nov 2013 04:26 PM 
Orange Empire Railway Museum 
http://www.oerm.org/ 

Bets are, with all the trolleys they have, plus functional overhead, these can be obtained. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrqT38LKN4A 

Bryan,

No, we do not, sorry.

Julie Nunn
Reception Lead
Orange Empire Railway Museum


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By harvey on 20 Nov 2013 11:12 AM 
Halton County Radial Railway in Ontario, Canada have some Peter Witt cars within their collection and I understand these are operated on a regular basis throughout the summer time.
This may be a source of obtaining a correct sound bite.
Cheers.


I sent an e-mail out hoping for better response than past experiences posted here.


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Posted By bdelmo on 20 Nov 2013 09:14 AM 
Posted By Ltotis on 19 Nov 2013 06:01 PM 
Have you tried this museum? 

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/ 



I just sent a web inquiry to the person in collections there. 

I don't think we do, we don't do sound recordings of streetcars. Try the Halton County Railway-www.hcry.org/‎-they have Witts. Or Milan.Italy, they have them too.


----------



## bdelmo (Oct 21, 2010)

Hi Bryan,

Unfortunately we don't have digital conversions of the sounds on the "Sounds of Streetcars" record yet.

However I will investigate it at some point to get an estimate of the cost.

Regards,
Robert
OERHA Archives


----------



## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

Is this Digitrax and Fred Miller information of any use?


----------



## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Halton County Radial Railway in Ontario, Canada have some Peter Witt cars within their collection and I understand these are operated on a regular basis throughout the summer time. 
This may be a source of obtaining a correct sound bite. 

Go to San Francisco and ride the P. Witts on the #6 Market St. line out from F. Wharf. They split the time about 60/40 with the PCC cars (or maybe it's 70/30). Get the 3-day pass and ride til you get some good sound samples without much background noise. And, believe me, those P.W.'s will drown out the ambient noise with no trouble at all. 

JackM


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Have found that Zimo has a reasonable trolley / streetcar sound file AND the required MTC21 socket decoder.

My progress on investigating this is on my site:

http://www.elmassian.com/trains/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips/bachmann-motive-power/peter-witt-trolley


----------



## honeybooboo (Jan 10, 2014)

How we coming on this project Greg ? Interested in maybe buying one.
I see all the good info has been removed from LSC, Cant blame you as there are a bunch of A-----H---les there that tend to screw things up.
Another site that will bite the dust.........MLS Rules always.

Boo Boo


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, apart from attempts at smoke and mirrors, the NMRA has been mulling over the "standard" and there are variations in the standard that can zap stuff.

Burned up a Zimo decoder, seems some settings to configure the decoder are in order, also Lenz and ESU make them, but I liked the Zimo trolley sound file.

There's even more to the story with a main board recall in the works from Bachmann, see my site: http://www.elmassian.com/trains/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips/bachmann-motive-power/peter-witt-trolley

Greg


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Just read the story on your website...geez what a gongshow. How is it possible in this day and age to screw something up so badly? Maybe the battery mafia have got an insider?


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Cougar Rock Rail said:


> Just read the story on your website...geez what a gongshow. How is it possible in this day and age to screw something up so badly? Maybe the battery mafia have got an insider?


Nope. The DCC "Mafia" managed to do this all by themselves.


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Sure seems like it Tony. Actually the lack of clear documentation from Bachmann and Zimo is really the problem. It shouldn't be this difficult but it's like they go out of their way to muddy the waters. If Greg couldn't even figure it out that should tell you something. I would hope Bachmann would cover the replacement cost of his decoder to set things right.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

So much for standardisation of PnP sockets.
How many is it now?


----------



## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

I've lost count. In Europe Maerklin seems to have settled on their G1 interface, and the manufacturers quickly adapted to that one. Massoth has a new decoder to plug right in that interface, with Zimo and ESU adapting decoders to suit. Train-line is using the new PluG interface, and Massoth has a new PluG decoder for that with Zimo and ESU building adaptor plates. So it seems that on that side of the pond the train manufacturers are at least making some effort to work with the decoder manufactures, while it seems like here Aristo, USA and Bachmann come up with their own hare-brained schemes and then it takes years for the decoder manufacturers to play catch-up. 
A good example is the new Zimo 697 decoder to fit the Aristo interface. Nice decoder finally, but ooops...no Aristo anymore...
Thank goodness my stuff is all MLGB and their new sound decoders are excellent, although they too take some getting used to. 
Oh well, if they made it too easy we'd have nothing to whine about.


----------

