# Are Lipo batteries prone to blowing up?



## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Did a search on this forum but couldn't find: 


There’s another discussion of this on another website so thought extend it here:

I had no idea about the inherent dangers in those. Nice website. This guy's car could have burned up with those:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6af14efc2ca0a6d242c486215968a43d&t=1058411

Here's what a destroyed lippo looks like:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2555857

Here's the funniest post I've read in some time; duh

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1028725


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Prone? No 
Can they? Yes 

Long subject, lots of info. Overcharged from defective charger, or bad cell being charged, or (rarely) internal short, yes lots of heat and fire, not really explosion. 

Regards, Greg


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

SE.......... I've been using Li-ions for about 4 years without incident. They are charged the way the manufacturer recommends with a charger they recommend. I charge 6 or more packs a day on a heavy day of running 3 battery operated trains.

As I read the posts about fires, most of them are from the R/C airplane users and are in the Li-Poly rather than the Li-ion.. Most of the fires and problems have been with over charging with the wrong equipment. Yes, there have been some laptop fires but they evidently had bad cells. 

There's a new LiFE battery on the market today which is much more stable, environmentally friendly and has longer life with 2000 or more charging cycles. It's Li-ion Phosphate. It's very interesting technology. They are capable of very high drain use. Much more so than we'd ever be using in our locomotives unless we're going to start builidng super, high torque locomotives for drag raciing or tractor pulls. 

However, I do have a set on order for testing on our relatively low amperage draw trains. Results will probably be in a couple of weeks or so.... The Big Train Show will interupt the testing..


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I don't think they're any safer than any of the other Lithium types. 

Here are some real good videos: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw 

I don't know about you, but I don't want one of those going off in my shop, or basement. 
Close enough to an "explosion" for me. 

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/788668/worlds_most_dangerous_battery/ 

Read the warnings. 
Make certain you open your locomotive, remove the batteries and store in a metal box. 
Outside. 

"Lithium polymer batteries are known for their unpredictable explosive nature when placed under too much pressure (over charging, excessive pull). Because they are unstable, a product called liposack was invented to contain the batteries in the event that they explode. " 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_polymer_battery 

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/09/sony-says-non-exploding-lithium-polymer-laptop-batteries-coming/ 

(if you can get the page to open). In light of the previous videos and discussions, obviously Sony was engaged in wishful thinking 2-1/2 years ago when they announced non-exploding LiPo batteries. 

I do not want them in my shop.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

BTW, I learned my lesson early with any Lithium-based battery. 

Lithium Hydroxide. 

AKA "personal nuclear deterrent device". 

I also recall Chemistry in school, and what Lithium does when it gets wet. 

Your laptop may not get wet, but around these parts, our trains certainly do. 


Anybody recall the photos of the remains of the garage, shop, and engines that showed up on the Polk forum a while back? 

I do.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

Be careful about which kind of battery you're talking about. There are lithium, lithium-ion, and lithium-poly batteries. They have different characteristics. Yes, they can all have an exothermic oxidizing reaction, but generally only if short circuited, punctured, or massively overcharged. They all have internal protection circuits designed to protect them, but I would be careful anyway.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The question is on LiPos. 
The quote is: 
"Lithium polymer batteries are known for their unpredictable explosive nature....." 

Lithium Polymer ARE LiPos. 
And, not all have the internal circuitry. 
Or, should I say, internal circuitry you can count on (read: QC Fade).


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

"The question is on LiPos." 

That was my point exactly; but there are also comments about Li-ion, which are similar, but not the same. 

"And, not all have the internal circuitry. " 
You're right, I was thinking about Li-ion (see? they are easy to confuse.  )


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Sony and Dell laptop battery packs that burned up explosively were li-ion packs made of cylindrical 4/3 AA cells (approximate size). Harder to damage, you have to dent the case. Li-po only needs a small ding or puncture to short them. There's lots of videos showing these laptop batteries catching on fire and burning up while in the battery pack, in the laptop, using a factory charger. 

All rechargable cells eventually "wear out" and the cell(s) become defective (opens or shorts) and if the charger and protection circuitry does not work perfectly, then charging can cause enough heating to catch these on fire. It's a risk that you have to "buy into". 

I do all my gambling in Las Vegas, not in my back yard. 

Regards, Greg


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

The charging model- algorithm- of lithium based chemistry has changed completely from the early days of the Sony and similar cell phone stories. Lithium charges at a constant voltage and full or peak detection does not result in a pronounced Delta V as it does with NI based chemistry. In a modern or present day scenario you have both the smart charger electronics and the built in detection board in the battery pack watching thigs. The technology of the in built pack detection circuit is not exotic and is well understood. Follow the manufactures recommendations, buy good stuff, and you will be happy. Everybody carries a cell phone and uses digital camera, and camcorders these days. Read the labels on those batteries in those devices. Have not heard of a cellphone burning somebodies pants in quite a few years now. 

The only down side I see in using Lithium in garden trains now is that before , with NI based stuff, there was a bit of warning when about to run out of fuel, lights got dimmer , sound volume went down etc. 
With a lithium pack you have full power until the protection /detection board decides the pack is depleted (output drops below 10-11v) and the train simply stops immediately. 
I would still suggest Lithium -ion in most cases for trains, cost less the Li po. 
I will be running trains today for many hours with Lithium power. 
jonathan/EMw


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm with you, Jonathan. I have been runing li-ion batteries for a number of years now without any problems. I really don't worry about them any more than I do the ones in my laptop, my Palm, or my cell phone. I do agree with you too, though, that sudden stop when the voltage drops below the threshold is a killer on trains!!!

Ed


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=7079&highlight=fire 

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=7099&highlight=fire 

No matter who made them, they were lithiums.


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

Ed, we're not talking about problems with li-ions; we're discussing Lippos; lions are different


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I've have also been using Li-ion batteries (mostly from Battery Space) for about 3 years. I like the fact that the shelf life is over 3 months and on one Aristo battery, it held the charge for a year.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The ISSUE is, look at the remains of the LiIon batteries in the Aristo links. 

THEN, look at the videos of the LiPo's going off. 

You tell me. 

I don't want them in my shop.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Lithium is a very highly reactive metal. When a cell upsets and vents, the metal burns fiercely. This CAN occur in any lithium based battery, it's just more likely with SOME LiPo cells. 

Like most things in life, there is an upside and a downside. Risk is a combination of likelihood of failure and the consequences of that failure. The likelihood of a LiPo burning up is fairly low if they are well treated and handled, but the consequences can be fairly high (like burning down a house). The potential for physical damage to cells that need to be removed from a train to be charged is much higher than for a computer battery which is encased in a fairly hard protective enclosure. 

I am risk adverse. For THIS ONE time, TOC and I are in agreement.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree, I am likewise risk adverse and nicads would be my first choice. 

I think a very good point from George is that you can more easily damage cells in your train, as opposed to in a nice factory enclosure like a laptop battery pack. 

Regards, Greg


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, my apologies for chiming in and hijacking the thread with Li-ions when the subject was Li-po's. They are different...    


Just a side note even though I did hijack the thread...   


I've made it a habit from the very start of using batteries 10 years ago to charge all my batteries out of the battery cars and/or locomotives on ceramic tiles... That's gel cells, nicads, NiMH and Li-ion's. I've had Nicads and NiMh batteries get so hot while charging I couldn't hold them.. And I was using the manufacturer's supplied and recommended charger for both... Go Figure.....


Even with all the stuff that's going on with batteries, I think it's still a very viable and easy way to run trains.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

If a battery gets too hot to hold when charging, it is being damaged by an incorrectly designed charger. When a charging battery starts to heat significantly, it's telling you that it cannot accept more charge. The only thing it can do is convert the current being forced through it into heat. The charger should know that and drop the charging current to zero or a trickle.


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## jlinde (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't use batteries with my trains, but I have 5 or 6 Lipos of varying output for my RC boats and planes that I charge using a Triton EQ. I've never had a problem.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

And you probably won't. These issues with batteries burning up are really rare. Most of the video you see of them burning up are induced failures by purposely overcharging a battery to cause it to heat, swell and "vent" so that an impressive video can be shot. However, these batteries have been known to burn rather vigorously. Other battery technologies don't do that. They may vent and make a mess, but at least they don't burn. 

Even though I don't do battery RC much, I prefer a lower performance, but less vigorous battery technology, one that doesn't need special chargers and the batteries can be charged inside the locos. The RC airplane guys have a special need for a very light high energy battery. Train guys don't have such a demanding environment. Weight can actually be good.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been looking into Lipo batteries for a while now. Here is a Quote from a site which I believe was dealing with Cell phones and such: 
Lithium Polymer Batteries Lithium-ion polymer batteries, polymer lithium ion, or more commonly lithium polymer batteries are rechargeable batteries which have technologically evolved from lithium-ion batteries. The advantages of Li-poly over the lithium-ion design include lower cost manufacturing and being more robust to physical damage. A compelling advantage of Li-poly cells is that manufacturers can shape the battery almost however they please, which can be important on smaller, thinner, and lighter phones. Another advantage of lithium polymer cells over nickel-cadmium and nickel metal hydride cells is that the rate of self-discharge is much lower.


As I understand it LIPO is already in use in many devices we use everyday, like cell phones and such.

While there is risk in everything we do or have, it is a matter of how much risk!! Guys I know using LIPO (not in railroading) are very happy with LIPO because of the fact they are tougher than Lithium ION. Like Stan and others I have been using Lion batteries without incident for about 16 months. When charging they don't even get warm, when I charge Nmih for my camera they do get warm. 

Lithium is in many products we use, one example is Lithium grease, We have many household chemicals which are extremely dangerous! From what I have read I would not fear Lipo batteries.

I feel there is nothing to fear but fear itself! I do take care to follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Perfect! 
Just what we need! 

"I've kept a surplus Nuclear Warhead in my basement for decades and it has never given me any problems!" 

"All those surplus cannisters of US Army Nerve Gas we picked up at the Umatilla Garage Sale haven't started leaking yet!" 

All it takes is one. 
Did you even bother to check the Aristo links and look at the photos? 

Gotta be careful when you get your blinders choked in too tightly.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Gee TOC No need to get personal here!! I read all that, it is history, they have already made them better and safer at Aristo. A car blew up yesterday, and a plane crashed into the sea, aTV caught on fire and burned a house down and on and on. If we apply your concept of how to deal with this we would have to give up cars homes planes. It is OK with me if you want to stay with older technology, that is your call, but just because you have a fear of new stuff, no need to panic everyone else about it. 

Since you are all knowing about batteries as well as everything else, maybe you should give me an 11 or 12 page post to educate me properly!! Maybe you should just do some research and then we can learn why L-Ion, and Lipo batteries are so extensively used in existing technology, like cel phones , computers, blackberries, and countless other devices but , as you put it are dangerous in our model trains. 

You can't learn much listening to yourself talk. at least respect other folks opinions, even if you don't like them!!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I could, but it would be pointless. 
Because, then folks would claim I was trying to "tell" them something. 

Aristo has made them better, huh? 

Right. 

What they DID was announce they are going to NiMH and NiCad batteries. 
And, they have lead-acids now. 

I'm going to let you figure this one out, Bill. 

Oh, Bill, it's the cell phones, and computers that they "let go" in. 
Been saving the clippings. 

Like the kid whose cell phone lit off on his belt. 

How many batteries do you think the computer folks have had to recall? 

Once again, facts (like, videos) are ignored, with namby-pamby "oh, it won't happen! Never happens with cell phones, laptops, etc. 

Where have you been hiding, anyway? 

The model airplane folks have pages on data (or used to) on the "issues" with blowing up Lithiums. 
THEY are the ones that generated the "remove the batteries. Place them in a porcelain bowl at least 15 feet from any structure and MONITOR the charge", oh, and the charging bags.....to contain the rapidly expanding flames. 

All that done because.....there is no problem. 

Bill, I do believe you are clueless. 

I just haven't figured out if it's hereditary or a choice.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Hmmmm---- We are getting personal here aren't we!! For what it is worth, I think you will agree that to date there have been no known catastrophic failures of Aristo li-ion batteries. Regarding the gel cell batteries from Aristo, they came out before the li-ion batteries.

I do remember reading that when electricity first came out, there wre many folks who did not want that in their houses too since it was known to cause a lot of fires, and could easily electrocute folks.

I assume, Curmudgeon that you don't have computers and cell phones with li-ion batteries in them either??? I'm not being argumentative, but where can you find these devices with different batteries??

Ed


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I've got two cordless drills with l-ion batteries, no problems to date.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There are a couple of things you are all missing. 
One, Lithium batteries in cordless devices take dedicated chargers. 
Often, the plugs are also dedicated. 

In LS, folks tend to buy a charger to do all locomotives. 
So, if some have internal devices, others might not. 

Now, in the Aristo threads linked earlier, ORIGINALLY it was something to the effect that "the fire marshall says the fire started in the Lithium batteries", and "all we use are Aristo batteries". 

Later, that was modified, and suddenly it was every battery but one was Aristo, and that one torched. 

Very strange. 

Now, why? 
Did someone plug an Aristo charger into a non-Aristo battery? 
Who knows. 
But THERE is the problem. 

If your charger is not "dedicated", but rather usable in various applications, you've got a problem. 

"Factory Installed" units with dedicated chargers in Lithium are safer, yet, what was it, a million were recalled for overheat/flame propogation issues? 
And that's with dedicated chargers? 

Same thing (sort of) happened several years ago when someone used a charger-powered track section, very high-rate, to charge their locomotives. 
They used NiCads, which are VERY forgiving, but somebody talked this person into using NiMH in one of the locos for the convention. 

During the show, loud explosion was heard, and a "whoosh-whoosh-whoosh" as the long hood of the dismal came through the trees and landed on the patio. 

No sense circuits. 

So, argue on, and keep doing what you're doing. 

As I and others have said, I use something that is safer. 

I am not getting personal.....at least no more personal that you are, Bill. 

"Since you are all knowing about batteries as well as everything else, maybe you should give me an 11 or 12 page post to educate me properly!! Maybe you should just do some research and then we can learn why L-Ion, and Lipo batteries are so extensively used in existing technology, like cel phones , computers, blackberries, and countless other devices but , as you put it are dangerous in our model trains." 

You think I have NOT done research? 

You ever check into what insurance costs if one sells and installs Lithiums? 

You know Lithium Primary cells are banned on aircraft? 
You know the FAA is still trying to sort out the safety issues with Secondary cells? 

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html 

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm 
"Only use a charger compatible with your rechargeable battery â€" donâ€™t mix and match! " 

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/2007Conference/files/Training_Videos/ThursPM/Videos/Laptop_master.wmv 

Does not explode. 
Sure looks like an explosion to me, and I wouldn't want that happening at 30,000 feet. 
OR, in my shop. 
And that is a dedicated charger.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Curmudgeon, I am still honestly curious as to what you do with a laptop computer and/or a cell phone. I just have not seen any recently with anything but lithium batteries.

Ed


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed. 
To the best of my knowledge all laptops and cell phones are using LiPos or Li-Ion cells. It has taken them awhile to get the batteries right, but right they seem to be getting. 
The one big difference between the batteries used in those products and the way Large Scalers will use the batteries is, that each appliance has its own dedicated charging controls built in. 
Perhaps you could tell us all exactly which Li-Po batteries used for model trains have such charging controls built in? 
Given that you have had successful experience with the AC Li-Ion batteries, perhaps you could tell us all why Mr Polk has apparently decided to no longer sell them and "reverted" to old chemistry by choosing to sell Ni-Cd and NiMh instead?


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I have been using Li-Ion battery packs for about 1 year now, I guess. I really like them due to more energy in a smaller space. In my opinion, they are certainly safe to use. And as many have stated, you must use the proper charger and follow instructions, etc.

TOC does make ONE good point. Many folks, like myself, are using multiple chargers and battery technologies, and they all have the same style charging jack. What happens when you charge the Li-Ion pack with the NiMH charger? Maybe nothing, if the battery pack's circuit board works, but there is certainly an increased chance of a major malfunction. I have already caught myself plugging in and starting the wrong charger! Different plug styles are probably the safest way to go, but at the moment, I just have a chart telling me what style battery pack is installed in which loco (all of mine charge in the loco/tender/trailing car). I think at minimum, I will be color coding my charging jacks and plugs; plug the red charging plug into the red charging jack for Li-Ion, blue for NiMh, etc. Again, different size jacks would be the safest way to go, but not practical for me at the moment.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Tony, I guess I do as you and others recommend. I do use a dedicated charger for my Aristo li-ion batteries. I use the Aristo charger which has done very well for a number of years. That is the ONLY charger I would charge these batteries with. Regarding Lewis Polk and the ni-mh and ni-cad batteries, I have heard nothing at all that Aristo is no longer producing and selling the li-ion batteries. It is my understanding that the ni-mh and ni-cad batteries are just a somewhat lower cost option.

Again, my question to Curmudgeon was an honest one of curiosity. Reading his posts, it would seem that he doesn't believe any of the lithium batteries are safe, and I was just wondering if he was able to find a cell phone or laptop without them. I certainly haven't seen any, and in fact have had a laptop and cell phones with lithium batteries for a number of years now. 

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've given my "position statement" earlier, so I won't repeat that. 

Bill, from my experience (a number of years designing small portable and consumer devices) Li-po batteries are more subject to damage than li-ion cells because the potential for an internal short is greater if the battery is in a flexible bag, than a metal cylinder. It's just easier to puncture or "dent" the flexible sack. The site you quoted from is 180 degrees out of phase with my experience. 

I would read up more and see if you get the same information from a greater number of sites. When we put batteries in a pda design, for example (and I designed one for Intel which never made it to market unfortunately) we could use li-po cells if they were not user-replaceable... if the user was to swap batteries, we used cells that were either in metal "cans" or packaged the li-po cells in a protective "cartridge". 

Just my experience. 

re: Del's post: If I was starting out in battery power, different charging jack sizes keyed to the different packs might be a great idea to foolproof the situation. (I appreciate that this would be a big hassle if you already have all your charging jacks and systems set up) 

Regards, Greg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Right now, I do not believe the general use charger technologies are up to the battery technology for Lithioums, and, since my shop is made of wood, and a million-dollar insurance policy over-and-above what I have is not feasable, then the answer is no. 

My main battery supplier just recently got into Lithiums, also, and he was required to buy said million-dollar umbrella coverage. 

Try, as in try hard, to find any laptop, cell phone, Boysenberry, or anything else, where you can purchase the exact same item with NiMH OR Lithiums. 
That was my point. 
How many millions of Lithiums were subject to recall? 

This is no different than the Ames Super Socket where you have no choice, the equipment comes with. 

If I was to be purchasing a laptop, or whatever, and it had Lithiums, I would not buy it. 

Period.


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting.

Example One.

Example Two.

Example Three.

Example Four. (Note, this text goes with that one: "This is the result of over charging a Lithium Ion Battery. I was using the correct charger and it had only been on for 1 hour. The warning on the pack said to keep an eye on it - Glad i did. Sorry I never got video of the flames - was too busy putting out the fire.")

US Consumer Product Safety Commission Warning

Wholesale Trains Li-PO battery wiith warnings.


It is, apparently, a fact that a danger exists with Li-PO batteries, advanced technology though they be, of fire, and explosion. And it is also true that there are ways to mitigate that danger, or at least prevent injury and property damage should the worst occur. It appears that the danger is real even under "normal" use and charging, as demonstrated by Example Four above, as well as the many stories, warnings, and examples that any quick google search will render, particularly in the powered model community.

I'm a pretty smart guy, and pretty careful about my models, and my electronics, but I have to admit there are times I've left a model plugged in overnight, and been glad nothing bad happened (I do not have any batteries of this type, and what I do have doesn't seem to mind occasionally being left on longer than intended.) I've also had a cell phone that suddenly had the back pop off because the Li-PO battery inside became nearly round.... I managed to disconnect the phone, and pry the battery out before the explosion and fire happened ... but the phone was not being used in an other-than-normal/ordinary way at the time, and had no unusual trauma, shock, or other insult before this happened. 

Now ... the phone does have a new Li-ON battery (it's all that fits in there...) but I have to say I'm a whole lot more careful about it now. And, I'd be seriously disinclined to tell anyone there was no reason to be particularly careful. In the case of my trains, since something else works that doesn't come with this kind of problem, I think I'll continue to use that instead.

Matthew (OV)

PS. This post is not meant as an attack, challenge, or insult to anyone, personally or otherwise, and I have tried to include relevant factual information on the topic to form conclusions. No matter what anyone thinks of various posters, or of me personally, I would say there's some valid concern here, and it would be foolish to allow people who don't know the potential for these issues to think there were none just because anecdotally, some of us have never had those issues happen to us.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

If you were a really smart guy you'd just go to track power. It almost never blows up






Sorry, could not resist.  


interesting that ALL those videos appear to the result of deliberate overcharging.  I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove, except that if you use the device incorrectly, it could fail catastrophically--like smoking  at a gas pump. I absolutely believe that using the wrong charger. But I've had Li-ion batteries in my laptops for many years now and they have not blow up yet, and neither have the cordless drills I mentioned. Doesn't mean they won't, of course


It certainly seems true that using the wrong charger is a bad idea. I'm surprised at the faith in govt. shown here, given the general trend of denouncing govt. as inept and incompetent.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By lownote on 06/07/2009 8:02 PM
If you were a really smart guy you'd just go to track power. It almost never blows up






Sorry, could not resist. 


interesting that ALL those videos appear to the result of deliberate overcharging. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove, except that if you use the device incorrectly, it could fail catastrophically--like smoking at a gas pump. I absolutely believe that using the wrong charger. But I've had Li-ion batteries in my laptops for many years now and they have not blow up yet, and neither have the cordless drills I mentioned. Doesn't mean they won't, of course


It certainly seems true that using the wrong charger is a bad idea. I'm surprised at the faith in govt. shown here, given the general trend of denouncing govt. as inept and incompetent.











Mike, Mike, Mike.
Didn't I read somewhere someone complaining about thoughtful discussions being hijacked to someone's favourite control system?

That said, Slate Creek is BOTH track power and battery r/c.
He became a battery r/c user when his Bachmann Shay, on strictly track power, on the overhead railroad in his apartment in the North East, caught fire and had to be physically thrown into the front yard.

Dead serious.

I ended up rebuilding it, and it still runs today, but we won't get into Chinese Wiring and lack of QC or some lovely person will start screaming "BASHING!".


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi, 

We are using Li-Pos for some of our smaller RC locos for 4 or 5 years now without problems. No need for taking them out, when charging. 
We use chargers, sold for the Li-Pos, which switch off, when the batteries are full. OK, we read the instructions of our outfits, which sometimes helps. 










We installed warning devices, to prevent the Li-Pos from self distruction due to getting empty. Either buzzers or flickering lights. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

All this reminds of the father of one of my school chums.

He was employed by the local gas (cooking and heating version for American readers) company in their local showroom. When selling gas appliances he went to lengths to explain how dangerous electricity was and that it caused many house fires and deaths by electrocution due the the hidden nature of electric current and most electric wiring thus concealing its dangers. 

His counterpart in the electrical apparatus showroom a few doors up the street made great play advising would be purchasers of the formidable dangers of household gas. He explained how it poisoned and asphyxiated people and he emphasized the great risk of explosions. 


The moral then is "you pays your money and takes your choice".


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## Marauderer (Jan 5, 2008)

In addition to my G trains I have gone back to RC Planes and have about 20 Lipo packs that range from 1S1P 138 mah capacity to 4S1P 2350 mah. I learned from the start about all the horror stories of folks burning their Lexus's to the wheels and their homes to the ground. I learned to always use a quality digital balancing charger that is specifically made to charge Lipos. Never exceed the 1C charge rate, never leave the room when you are charging, periodically check your pack when charging for warmth and or puffiness. If either occurs stop charging immediately and investigate. Lipo's have specific guidelines that are different from other batteries but, if you follow those guidelines and rules you will not have any problems. I have never had a Lipo get warm on me. I have had two of them get puffy and will be disposing them properly. I have charged several hundred packs since returning to RC Planes last October and if I was a Train Battery type of guy (I am not) I would use them in my trains and be very happy with them. As with all engineering type projects the 5,7,9 P's are very important if you don't want "Mr. Murphy" involved in your project.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

This exhibits clearly THE issue. 
People who have some knowledge of what they are doing try to impart said knowledge to the un-informed, and we end up with a catastrophe. 

Like the NiCad high-rate charger and NiMH. 

Or, the guy on these very forums who burned his shed down twice, blew one loco up, and melted another.....and it was none of the battery types in question. 

"Oh, yeah, I just plug in whatever and let it go" (very small print: never exceed a certain rate, monitor the charge, etc, all of which never makes it to the memory banks of the newbie). 

Do it right. 
If there are problems out there with folks who KNOW what they are doing (read the model airplane pages on it) then just imagine what happens to the percentage of failures with folks who DON'T know what they are doing. 

I just love hearing "been doing this and never had a problem". 

Bottom line: 

All the examples in the world of "no problems" are annulled when there is one problem.


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## Dennis Paulson (Jan 2, 2008)

A GOOGLE search turns up about 40,000 hits for a LIPO Charging bag or sack . 

Kinda makes you wonder why these are so widely sold ? 

I have been useing and chargeing LIPO's for over 5 years , great in rc planes , and yes I use the utmost care and a Lipo chargeing bag , and never leave them while chargeing , and store them in metal cans . I have not had any problems with them myself , and I do not want too either . 
I do not use them in my trains , only for the rc planes and trucks . 

toc I like this 
All the examples in the world of "no problems" are annulled when there is one problem


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Marauderer on 06/14/2009 1:52 PM
... As with all engineering type projects the 5,7,9 P's are very important if you don't want "Mr. Murphy" involved in your project.

Please enlighten this engineer as to what the 5,7,9 's are? I know Mr. Murphy well, but have never heard this one.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dennis Paulson on 06/14/2009 2:56 PM
A GOOGLE search turns up about 40,000 hits for a LIPO Charging bag or sack . 

Kinda makes you wonder why these are so widely sold ? 

toc I like this 
All the examples in the world of "no problems" are annulled when there is one problem 



A google search for "dowsing" turns up *729,000 *hits. I would not take that as evidence that dowsing works 



I'm completely convinced, though, that you need to use the right charger with Li-po batteries and that you need to take care not to overcharge them while making a youtube video, unless you WANT them to explode



I don't think one instance of problems annuls a near infinity of no problems: there is nothing made by man which works 100% of the time. 


But I'll always make sure to used the right charger with li-po's


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

An acquaintance of mine accidently drilled into a Lithium rechargeable battery that was installed inside a loco. 
It went off like a roman candle and could not be put out until it was totally spent of fuel for the fire. Some five minutes later. 
"Dowsing" with water certainly did not put out the fire. 
The loco ended up a melted ball of plastic. 

Now, that certainly was not self ignition or even faulty charging. But, I know of NO NiCd batteries that have ever done that when drilled into.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/14/2009 2:31 PM
This exhibits clearly THE issue. 
People who have some knowledge of what they are doing try to impart said knowledge to the un-informed, and we end up with a catastrophe. 

Like the NiCad high-rate charger and NiMH. 

Or, the guy on these very forums who burned his shed down twice, blew one loco up, and melted another.....and it was none of the battery types in question. 

"Oh, yeah, I just plug in whatever and let it go" (very small print: never exceed a certain rate, monitor the charge, etc, all of which never makes it to the memory banks of the newbie). 

Do it right. 
If there are problems out there with folks who KNOW what they are doing (read the model airplane pages on it) then just imagine what happens to the percentage of failures with folks who DON'T know what they are doing. 

I just love hearing "been doing this and never had a problem". 

Bottom line: 

All the examples in the world of "no problems" are annulled when there is one problem.


I have been driving a car for years "and never had a problem".

I have been flying in airplanes for years "and never had a problem".

I have been eating food for years, "and never had a problem".

I suppose that is proof enough to never drive, fly or eat?


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Tony basically summarized it best but I'll paraphrase... 

You get to name your own poison 

any power method, any battery method, any battery chemistry has advantages and liabilities. No matter how you run your trains you will do maintenance on that method in some way or other and you will take some kind of risk in one way or another. 

Track power people put up with cleaning track and they take the risk of some obscure electrical fault that may put 110 (or 220) volt power on the track and kill them outright. 

Battery power people can get bit by their charger or burned by their batteries. In any event, they have to charge them. 

All these risks are low, but NOT ZERO. Somebody, somewhere will eventually get bit.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 06/14/2009 7:38 PM



I have been driving a car for years "and never had a problem".

I have been flying in airplanes for years "and never had a problem".

I have been eating food for years, "and never had a problem".

I suppose that is proof enough to never drive, fly or eat?









This is too good not to save.

Drive while talking on your cell or texting?

Flying into thunderstorms?

Eating at Mickey D's for 40 years?

Maybe just lucky.....so far......which is the purpose of this thread.

Let's take automobiles.

DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid.

Some seals cannot be used with silicone, and, according to a report in one of the old car club magazines last year, if you have a vacuum booster, you'd better hope and pray it doesn't go bad.
Or you bought an engine.
But, lots of folks "never had a problem".

All those trans-fats we have been subjected to.....time bomb, waiting to drop you in your tracks, but, "never had a problem".

Airplanes?

I can certainly recount many, many instances where folks probably have on their gravestones:

"I have been flying in airplanes for years and never had a problem....until now".

I've been close a couple of times.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Life = Risk

*Life:* An S.T.D. with 100% mortality.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Airplanes? 

I can certainly recount many, many instances where folks probably have on their gravestones: 

"I have been flying in airplanes for years and never had a problem....until now". 




Over here in Old Europe people in graves do not have any problems any more. Funny people, these Americans. 
Start worrying when it is too late. 
Do they still use Six-Shooters when they can´t find the drill it? 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

This morning's paper had a story on the Nereus, a VERY deep sea exploration vehicle working six miles down










Note the 4000 li-on batteries.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Gee look at this!! A car caught on fire!! Can you believe it!!! 

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2009/05/fire_at_gas_station_brings_hea.html 

Just want you all to know so that you can stop driving you car as it is not safe from fire and could even blow up!!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill, and I will be specific..... 

There is an issue folks not fully cognizant of the problems should be aware of. 

All brought out by the initial poster. 

Your reprehensible attempts to derail this thread, especially by trying to make the issue laughable, are in and of itself laughable. 

You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about in this area, as you have shown in other areas under discussion, but, hey, it's a free forum, you can say what you want. 

It's just that you don't have the assistance of special folks like you seem to have on the botched forum. 

Keep it up, Bill. 

I've got this funny feeling that there is going to be a credibility crisis in your future, as folks recall your stance on this and other items. 

Especially when they recall comments made about things you don't own, or have possession of (like, oh, certain newer Bachmann items). 


Bill, your link http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2009/05/fire_at_gas_station_brings_hea.html, is a poorly thought out attempt.
First, a truly thinking individual would carefully research any purchase, be it battery or vehicle, or even airline.
The article you linked gives insufficient data to make an informed decision.
Did you notice it does not mention make/model/or year?
Like a headline that says "Earthquake!" but gives no location or magnitude.

If we knew year/make/model, we could look and see if these vehicles were prone to such activity.
Consumer Reports is a name that springs to mind.

But, no.
Simply a diversion in a poor attempt at ridicule.

Oh, and Mike-

Look closely.

4,000 Lithiums........NO people!

With a little experience operating submersibles, and the issue of batteries and possible fires, well, 4,000 Lithiums and people in the same can is not my idea of fun.


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

*Guys,*

*This is getting personal.*

*Step back.*

*Jim Francis, Moderator*


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 06/15/2009 10:57 AM


Oh, and Mike-

Look closely.

4,000 Lithiums........NO people!

With a little experience operating submersibles, and the issue of batteries and possible fires, well, 4,000 Lithiums and people in the same can is not my idea of fun.





Yeah, but they have to reel it back in and charge it, don't they? Says they do at the Woods Hole Oceanographic site.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

So? 
Whatever are you on about? 

Go back and look at the original question. 

Proof has been posted there is a problem.....sometimes. 

Your call, and since you don't use ANY batteries in your trains, exactly what dog do you have in this fight?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I guess my point was they must have people around when they charge it


I'm just interested in the technology. I've got a model that I'm working on that if it's ever finished will probably be battery powered. Like I said, I like the li-on cordless drills, and thought I might try using a cordless drill battery. Ryonbi makes a charger they say works equally well for Li-on and nimh batteries. It's worked well for me with Li-ons


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave, There is a problem with EVERYTHING "sometimes" That is the whole point you have missed in this thread. Proof in your mind it that if something bad happens a few times it is to be forever thrown out. Cars have caught on fire many many hundreds of times, I guess that constitutes proof using your logic. Used in accordance with instructions is the key to any product! BTW, Why beat up on lownote, just because he has an opinion! He has a right to it. Lots of guys are successfully using lithium drill batteries to power their trains. 

BTW Dave my post was just a joke, something you don't seem to understand. I really feel sorry for you


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill. 
Can you please tell us exactly how much experience you have had with battery powered large scale model trains of any sort that qualifies you to comment with any authority on the subject?


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes Tony,

I have given clinics on how to battery power large scale trains, I have given clinics on how to make Li-ion battery packs, with PCB protection circuitry, I have given clinics on how to make battery trail cars. I have been using battery power for about six years. I have installed various RC systems (Aristo, Locolinc, etc in large scale locomotives, including both battery and track power. I have used Li-ion packs for about three years, feel they are great, nice small size very liight weight, better in trail cars. Super long run time compared to my old technology NMIH & Nicad packs. I always study things carefully before using them and always follow the manufacturers instructions. I have been studying Lipo technology for two years. I would use Lipo, but so far the Li-IOn packs I make my self are the lowest cost of the two technologies. None of the folks I have showed how to make Li-ion battery packs have ever reported any problems with the ones they built. I use the manufacturers charger according to directions, when charging my Li-ion packs do not run even warm to the touch. 

I do wonder why you feel you had to ask this question? I do resent the tone of your question I consider it arrogant and out of order. Perhaps we all should have to post our specific bio info before each post to prove we are qualified to post our opinions. We have people bashing the lithium technology who have never even tried it! Some won't even have in their shop, yet they are expert!

I would ask you to ask the same questions to many of those who will not use Li-Ion, or lithium based products. What is their specific experience with Lithium Technology, what makes them bettter than me to post my opinion in this forum

Tony I will ask you the same question and Dave (TOC) as well. How much experience do either of you have with Lithium batteries, that make you qualified to speak with any authority about Li-ION batteries, in large scale trains.? How long have either of you run them in your trains? What types do you use? Do you make your own packs?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill. 
My experience is (very) limited with Lithium Ion batteries used in LS trains 
I actually had some of the early made in Israel AA Lithium cells. They were hopeless. 
They did not last very long at all. 
I gave them away as a waste of time. 
I have no experience with Li-Po at all. 

Being in the business I prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with any possibility of a consumer having cause to take legal action over the failure of a third party product. No matter how that failure occurred.
Because of the possible legal repercussions in the event of catastrophic cell failure, I will continue to neither sell nor recommend any Lithium chemistry based batteries until I am assured that ALL issues have been resolved. 

I have been using both NiCd (for 25 years) and NiMh (for 15 years) with the only problems ever surfacing being associated with the shorter life span (in terms of the number of recharges) of NiMh when compared to NiCd. I have never experienced the "so called" memory effect in NiCd. 

I am glad for you that you have had success with the packs you make. I wish you continued success and only hope that there are no legal repercussions for you if ever a failure should occur in any packs you have made.


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

*OK,*

*This is your second and last warning.*

*Stop using names or else the topic will be locked and all three of you (and you know who you are) will have caused this to happen.*

*Try being less confrontational.*

*Jim Francis, Moderator*


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

OK….maybe we should look at the lithium battery issues from a positive viewpoint…kinda like the RC plane and car guys have…and ask, what do you do to use them safely?


Most folks know that when you have a high density energy source, you’ve got the potential for danger…stuff like gasoline, butane, propane, acetone, paint thinner, etc. Yet many of us have had this stuff around the house…and have refilled their containers repeatedly…and haven’t been burnt to death. That’s because we understand how to use these “dangerous” energy sources safely. And…I’ll bet many of you, like me, keep this stuff indoors…at least in your garage or shop. I’ll bet some even store ammunition in their homes…the highest energy density stuff we’re allowed to have.


Lithium batteries are just a new version of this high energy density danger. They require we understand how to store them…and how to refuel them…and how to handle them. So…maybe we should start…


Unlike previous batteries, lithium technology has some new “features” for those used to older batteries (e.g. alkaline, Nimh, Nicad)…actually, at least two things. One, they are low impedance batteries…which means they can output HUGE amounts of current. The older batteries cannot do this. Being able to output HUGE amounts of current means…there’s lots of energy coming out. The faster energy comes out…the closer you get to an explosion. Just a bit behind the explosion level…is called a fire.


Secondly, lithium is an element that can burn by itself…violently too. The older batteries cannot do this. Now…technically, these batteries are not pure lithium…they have other stuff mixed with them to make em batteries…that’s why there are lithium ion, lithium polymer, and lithium ferrite batteries. None-the-less, these things can burn of and buy themselves once ignited. 


When you put these two “features” together…well, ya got a good situation for an explosion or fire that is difficult to put out. A shorted cell CAN explode…or burn intensely. I said CAN…not will.


Does that mean we shouldn’t be using the new technology? I have Lithium batteries in my cell phone, my laptops, my cordless drills, my GPS, my cameras, my Ipod…and hopefully soon, in my GRR engines. This issue we should be focusing on…is how does one use this new technology safely…not just panning it or saying it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.


So…I’m not an expert…but here are the things I know from RC model plane friends that use the technology, stuff I’ve read here, and stuff I’ve researched.
1. Charge them with a charger SPECIFICALLY designed for the cell type you are using. NEVER use a charger designed for Nimh or Nicads ONLY to charge a Lithium battery.
2. When you charge them, put them into a porcelain crock…to contain any fire that might occur…or explosion. Actually, any fireproof enclosure will work. I’m going to use a rural mailbox.
3. NEVER charge them at a rate over 1C…meaning if you have a 2000 mah pack, ensure that the charging rate is UNDER 2000 ma….2 amps.
4. If possible, buy packs with balancing jacks. This is a second jack that comes out of the pack with one more pin than the pack has cells. 
5. Use a pack balancer…this is a $6 device that plugs into the balancing jack that balances the charge in each cell. Better yet, use a charger that has a balancing jack input…so that the pack is charged and balanced at the same time. This is something NEW...RECENT. The RC plane guys found that when Lithium packs are fully charged...some cells are charged more. When that happens...it means that it becomes possible for the pack, especially with parallel cells...to generate their own currents INSIDE the battery. That's NOT a good situation...as it could mean that a weaker cell might look like a short to a good cell in parallel...and you have, in essence, an internal short...and a poof...kaboom. 

6. Do not drop a pack…impacts can damage the cells and result in fires. If in doubt…throw it out.
7. Do not solder Lithium cells together…they need to be spot welded together. Even if you have a pack built…it should be spot welded together. The heating from a soldering iron can cause internal damage…that later results in a fire.
8. NEVER NEVER NEVER short a pack…use shielded connectors only…ones in which the metal connections are completely shielded by the plastic connector.
9. When storing a pack for over a week…they’ll last longer (in the long run) if they are partially discharged. For some reason, they seem to have shorter life spans if kept fully charged all the time. 
10. Keep in mind that Lithium batteries lose 20% of their capacity per year due to their chemistry…so buy NEW packs or cells when you buy them. If you buy a three year old battery, it’s already lost 60% of its capacity. WHO you buy batteries from counts with Lithium stuff.
11. Buy packs with internal cut offs for low voltage…and ones with overcharge protection built in…and ones with that balancing jack. The RC plane guys have found these three features dramatically lower the potential for damaging a battery through use…and lengthen the life span of the battery.
12. Be aware….that IF you buy a battery with the low voltage cutoff…it means your train will stop dead when the battery gets to the voltage where the battery gets damaged…and that may NOT be where you want it to stop. It will be running just fine with no indication that the battery is running down….and just stop dead when it hits the cutoff voltage. Then again…consider that the RC plane guys have their stuff 500’ in the air when this occurs…and the wind might NOT be blowing right. The message is….learn how long your train will run BEFORE that low voltage cutoff happens. The RC plane guys learned this.


Now…this is my attempt at how to use this technology wisely. Others must have other good advice. What say we post some of it….instead of just bashing and counter-bashing.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Mike great post!! This is what is needed. Couldn't agree more with every point.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry I meant with most points!! Still a great post!!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

What do you disagree with?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing I thought of...understanding Lithium cell data. Earlier I said to not charge a pack at over 1C. Well, C stands for capacity. That's measured in mah...milliamp hours. A pack with a 2500 mah capacity will output 2500 milliamps for an hour....or half that...1250 milliamps for two hours. It's a measure of the energy amount stored in the pack.

Now, trains are LOW loads on batteries...compared to RC planes and cars. You'll find that packs are rated at 30C or 50C for airplanes or cars. What that means is that the pack can OUTPUT 30 times it's rated capacity ... or 50 times it's rated capacity...supposedly without exploding. That means that a 2500 mah pack rated at 30C can output 30 times 2500 ma....which is 75,000 ma...75 amps. In RC airplanes and cars, that's important because some of the electric motors they use CAN draw 60 amps at full power.


That means that some of the fire issues you read when reading about model airplanes are because a damaged pack rated at 30C failed when when it had 60 amps drawn from it. That's because a HIGH current draw was demanded. That can happen also when you hook a motor that needs 60 amps up to a brand new battery that can't provide 60 amps. It will try...and it will overheat...and possible burn or explode. Understanding this is a big deal by the RC plane and car modelers who use these high current motors...and it IS risky because planes and cars are subject to a LOT more high intensity vibration and impacts...compared to trains.


If you are running a typical GRR engine...even with a big load...it's unlikely you'll pull over 10 amps. I've seen GRRs with 25 amp power packs...and they can run multiple big trains. And shorts are a big issue when you have packs that large. It's the same for Lithium packs...shorts hurt. Fortunately, a derailment won't usually short a battery pack...while it can cause a short if it's track powered. 


It's just a matter of understanding...and fusing.

Most of my little GRR engines won't pull more than an amp. To me..that's good. If I use a 2500 mah pack, it means I can run for 2.5 hours. If that pack is rated at 10C (typical for lower cost packs), then it means it is supposed to safely output 25 amps...10 times 2500 ma. But my engines only pull 1 amp...which in the OUTPUT C rating is 1/25th C... .04 C...zip in stress to the battery. That means at full load, my train is VERY unlikely to overstress the battery, even if it's damaged. 


That's JUST a further safety factor...and it's NOT meant to mean you should EVER run a pack that is damaged or unbalanced.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike. 
Thanks for the post. 

Given that the safe practice is to place the battery pack in a porcelain container for charging, that automatically precludes pretty well every on board battery installation.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/16/2009 3:00 AM
Mike. 
Thanks for the post. 

Given that the safe practice is to place the battery pack in a porcelain container for charging, that automatically precludes pretty well every on board battery installation.


Sounds like it is time for a new building on the layout. Southwest motif... "Car shop" (with a run through track) made of Adobe. Pull the battery car into the "shop", hook up the charger, close the doors on each end and apply power. The roof could have smoke jacks to vent (in a controlled manner) any smoke or flame if something goes awry!

I used to have a railroad simulation game that let you position buildings and track. If you created a Roundhouse but neglected to put track to it, there would eventually be a boiler explosion in the building that would blow the doors off and the windows out, with flame up the smoke jacks in the roof... best part of the stupid game!


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have been standing on the sideline waztching this debate. A few important points. 99% of what Mike R says is correct. The point is in how we as users employ the battery. If you check the specs on a typical rc car speed controller or electric plane controller, you will find them rated to dissipate as much as 500 amps!. The car guy is interested in draining every ounce of power in the pack during the race and coasting across the finsh line with a dead pack. Same with airplane guys. They will spend many minutes at max /full /total throttle while climbing. Their flights last a few minutes. The car races also last a few minutes. The packs come out of the car/plane ALREADY HOT. What do we do now? we are already at the park or track facility, need to maximize our play time, lets recharge and go again! Some of the high performance motors used in these hobby toys measure as little as .1 ohms across the windings -essentilally a dead short. All of this is exactly opposite of what we do. We want the packs to last as long as possible. We do not use extremely high perfromance motors. There is not a train controller on the planet that can dissipate 500 amps. We do not race at max speed ( most of us anyway), nor do we spend five minutes at max throttle climbing to 500 feet altitude.
So , what can we learn from the early mistakes made by the rc car/plane guys? Lots. Even though a motor is asking for 60 amps as Mike said, the battery will try to deliver but will run up against the same limiting technology built into the pack. The protect boards do have a low voltage cutoff, they also have a max current output limit, generally between 5-7 amps for the size cells we use in trains. Trains wil pull 1- 3 amps even with sound unless car lighting is involved, and rarely that much. 
Balancing technology , while nice, is not mandatory for our low tech/demand applications. Balancing technology was developed a while back for nicads, again to maximize energy input for the racers- to go very fast for a short time. 
Modern smart chargers will apply what is known as a surface charge when first plugged in. This happens for a few seconds or sometimes even a few minutes. From this surface charge, the charger now knows the chemistry and number of cells in the pack. This is based on constant current variable voltage algorithms developed specifically for charging. Based onthe read of the pack, the charger goes to work- on a cold pack from our trains. We do not need to recharge in a few minutes because we are at the races for only a short while. We do not need to force charge inorder to maximize the energy held. We do not need to pay for matched cells and special peaking devices to ensure every last ounce of power possible is stuffed in the pack. The horror stories circulated around the internet and elsewhere are nearly always because of thes specialized unusual /careless precedures followed by hobbyists in the early days while everyone was still learning.
Lithium cellproduction has changed a great deal from the very early products, and much more is now known about charging.
I used to work in technical engineering support in the Pro news camera/recorder business. Miss a news story everybody hears about it from the boss. In those days we used Nicad smart chargers that communicated with the packs. NOBODY uses nicads in that business anymore. The technology has develpoed from that old nicad world and gone into even more advanced controls for over/under current/voltage limiters now used . The processors used in charging have gotten much smarter too. 
If you are the absent minded type that does not pay attention, then no technology will save you, as other have said, it is possible to abuse any technology-even a knife. Our uses for trains are so far below the leading edge that casual use is rapidly becoming the norm in all types of daily activities. In this way we are far more like small phones, GPS /laptop computers etc. These devices rarely if ever employ balancing technology(look at the contacts on the socket and battery- not enough) because they have low demands. Until someone starts to drag race their Bachmann shay or make it climb to 500 feet in 3 minutes, we can have fun.
There will always be those that resist new things- of any sort. his boards archives are full of the same discussion on NIMH many years back, the same discussion on fast smart charging vs. slow overnight trickle charging, and many more subjects. Those that cried the loudest are now quietly using such technology. Nicad WILL go away, cadmium is one of the most toxic metals on earth and is a big problem in landfills. Many more salient points can be discussed , but the point is clear.

Done . My fingers are tired!

Jonathan/www.rctrains.com


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/16/2009 3:00 AM
Mike. 
Thanks for the post. 

Given that the safe practice is to place the battery pack in a porcelain container for charging, that automatically precludes pretty well every on board battery installation.

Now you know why I'm going to charge my batteries INSIDE a rural mailbox...and that will be outside because I lack a large open concrete area inside to do the charging. Simply put, my shop has too much combustable material in it. This mailbox will be my charging station. It's metal.. it's waterproof...it closes...it has a blow out preventer (the door)...and it's big enough to place a tender or small GRR loco in it. Yes, it means that I'd lose the tender or engine IF there was a fire or explosion...but that's better than my house. I don't view it necessary to remove the battery from the tender/loco...then again, I'm willing to sacrifice a tender/engine doing this for the sake of convenience. That's clearly my personal decision and something that many folks would NOT agree with. Personally, I think doing the stuff I posted above mitigates the risk enough that I will never lose a tender/engine...but the risk can never be zero.


Lastly...adding onto Jonathan's post. He's REALLY correct regarding Nicads...they will be banned soon because of their polluting characteristic...cadnium is probably a worse pollutant than lead. Already here in California we are NOT allowed to dispose of any batteries in the trash. They all must be recycled...lead acid, carbon, alkaline, cadnium, metal hydride, and lithium technologies all. As the price of the lithium technology goes down...and the laws against cadnium based technology are approved...we'll see the shift in the direction of the lithium technology. Further, more stuff will get lithium technology very soon. Expect to see them in normal cars soon...as they are much lighter than lead acid batteries...and from that, we can antipate that the lithium technology will be more rugged and safer.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 06/15/2009 11:33 PM

11. Buy packs with internal cut offs for low voltage…and ones with overcharge protection built in…and ones with that balancing jack. The RC plane guys have found these three features dramatically lower the potential for damaging a battery through use…and lengthen the life span of the battery.






A little more about this recommendation...some history. When the lithium technology first came out, none of these safety gizmo's existed. 

The first thing folks found was that they could cause lithium batteries to burn during charging if the batteries were overcharged...especially if they were inside a closed container (e.g. an engine or airplane) where air couldn't circulate to cool them. That led to the installation of the overcharge protection circuit inside the battery so that it would shut off charging the pack when the pack voltage got to pack maximum. 

Then folks found out that if you discharged the batteries below some minimum, it could damage the chemistry in some of the cells...and those cells no longer would take a full charge. So, the minimum voltage cutoff circuit was added to prolong the life of the pack. I really don't look at this as a safety issue. It's just a lifespan issue to get you five years of use out of a Lithium battery.


Then folks found that they could have internal issues inside the batteries if the cells were not charged the same...and that resulted in lowered lifespan of the battery. This cause the balancing jack to be added...so that all cells could be charged to their maximum and then discharged such that they held the same charge. And that charge might not be the rated maximum of the pack...so your 2500 mah pack might only be a 2000 mah pack when it's been balanced...but the story is...it will last longer overall...supposedly. Again...perhaps NOT a safety issue.


Jonathan has pointed this out. There's little information out there on cell balancing pros/cons when the draw on the battery is low...like it is in trains. And, he's right in that consumer goods that use Lithium technology do NOT have the balancing pins...and they're lower current draw devices too. So...maybe the cell balancing is NOT a big deal to our application. In my view, the jury is still out...but Jonathan is probably correct. However...the lifespan extending additions are good in my view...because Lithium packs are not cheap. So I'm trying to get them to live the longest they can.


BUT...LISTEN UP...none of this stuff above will protect you from boneheaded mistakes in installing batteries...especially ones installed in parallel to get more amp hours into the engine. All the stuff written about diode circuits in battery packs and external over current protection and installation of external charging jacks still apply. The same applies to the manner in which the battery cells are connected together because you can damage a cell by soldering wires to it. Don't do that if you're using lithium technology. That doesn't mean you WILL have a fire if you solder or put batteries in parallel without protection. It means YOU have created a situation where a fire is more likely. 

Just keep in mind that Lithiums get out of control faster than Nicads and Nimh batteries because they can output much higher currents. Just because it worked when you did whatever you did with the older battery technologies does NOT mean it's safe with the Lithium technology...but, basics are basics and you need to know what you're doing...and you need to learn about Lithium technology and NOT assume it's like the older technology.


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## Dave Ottney (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree with what Mike and Jonathan have outlined. 
There is a difference between LiPo and LiIon chemistries. The packaging of the cells is also different- LiPo being in a foil container and LiIon in a metal can. The LiPo packaging is obviously more fragile than the LiIon packaging. Both chemistries can be dangerous if mishandled. But so are NiMh and NiCad cells if they are mishandled. 

The subject of cell balancing is well covered in the battery forum on RCGroups.com. I would venture to say that all packs sold for RC flying have balancing plugs. The chargers I use are FMA CellPro 4's. They are balancing chargers which monitor the state of each cell during the charge process, slowing the charge rate on cells in the pack which have higher voltage until the cells with lower voltage "catch up". There are other quality balancing chargers, I just happen to like the features the FMA unit has. 
(see this FMA fact page for tons of information- http://www.fmadirect.com/lipo_handbook/FMA_Lipo_Handbook_Section3.htm#_Toc109185761 ) 

LiPo packs that are out of balance and charged with chargers that are not balancing chargers can become dangerous. Essentially what happens is the charger is looking for a specific peak voltage for the whole pack to reach before it cuts off. If cells are out of balance then the cells with higher voltage keep getting charged beyond where they should be as the charger is trying to get the pack up to the peak voltage. This is where you run into problems. 

The other problem with using LiPo's in model RR'ing is that the ESC's (electronic speed controllers) in model RR'ing do not have the correct low voltage cutoff curcuitry built in or don't have any LVC circuit at all. Therefore a pack can be over discharged. LiPo's are not "happy" if they get discharged below 2.5v per cell, most RC flying ESC's cut off at 3v per cell. In RC flying modern ESC's are "Lipo aware" and the low voltage cutoff (LVC) is set with Lipo chemistry in mind. BTW when the LVC kicks in the speed control shuts down the motor while still providing power to the other channels (control surfaces) so you stil have control of the plane. 

Again all the horror tales about LiPo's generally result from abused packs (physically damaged, unbalanced charging, improper charge rates, over drawing amps, etc) and/or user error. The quality of the packs available today is a lot better than it was even a year ago. Many of the examples of thermal runaway (that's technical term used for the bloody things bursting into flame) were from a couple of years ago when the cells were much lower C values and the packs were being pushed too hard. There also was a period of time when we were getting some "bad batches" of packs and many manufacturers/distributors had problems. These seem to have been solved. Remember in RC flying we're often pulling a lot more amps out the packs, I have a couple of planes that have power systems that draw in access of 40A and I have seen power systems that draw in excess 80A. 

In summation, yes LiPo's can be dangerous if mishandled. Yes they are a great power source due to their energy to weight/size ratios. No I wouldn't use them in model RR'ing because of the lack of proper LVC circuits in model RR'ing speed controls. LiPo balancing chargers and LiPo packs with balancing plugs are a must. 
LiIon packs sold with protection circuits seem to be viable for model RR'ing because the protection circuit keeps the pack from being over charged or over discharged. But that is the subject for a different thread dealing specifically with LiIon packs. 
Hope this helps, again if you refer to RCGroups.com - battery forum you'll get a lot of information. 
Dave


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Two other additional points I did not note in my earlier posting. First in teh case of balancing, the extra connector and extra smarts built into a balancing charger is more costly, it may sometimes be difficult to justify this in a low tech model railroad envirronment. To this end, there are now some lithium packs that are self balancng.What this means is that the packs low voltage cutoff circuit board will also balance the pack. The downside to this is after the charge cycle is complete, you need to wait about 20-30 minutes for the balancing to take place. This is obviously unenforceable and falls under the general "read the instructins " directive. All packs will do this on their own to a degree, it is just not often noted in specifications.
Second, for 20years in my case, I have always tried tofit the largest current value battery pack possible into the loco motive. in many cases this results in a non removeable charge in place setup.
The advenbt of lithium has changed that. In fact now it isw oftern preferable to fit a physically smaller battery, say 2400 mah or so(typically 2 or more hours running) because the form factor is small enough to allow quick and easy change out in steam or diesel models. This will result in endless running option with 2 or 3 packs available( charge time same as run time). The upside is each pack costs less( easier to replace if you lose one), they charge quick and easy, and the dreaded horror of the supposed inevetible Thermal runaway diaster easier to contain with less overall energy to deal with. The smaller packs do the job just the same, do not heat up under smart charge, and are easier to handle, mount securely inside a loco and allow more space around them for things like speakers, circuit boards , air space etc.


Jonthan//Emw
battery r/c in trains since 1992


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Jonthan, Great point on the small size of the packs, I use the technique you mentioned and can switch a battery in a few seconds. One of my projects is to build a Li-ion pack inside one of those plastic logs like on the Bachmann Log Cars. Small Li-ion packs, easily fit thru the door of a typical Large Scale Reefer, Box Car or Stock Car, eliminating the need for a removable roof. 

I am not using balancing technology, you explanation of how the pack self balance was great. I did not even realize that, From now on I will be sure to let my packs sit awhile before use. I am building 2600mah 14.4 Packs with built in protection, now for less than $30. I will build four more to make sure thay sit for plenty of time before use. 

Thanks for the great posts, This is great stuff!! 

Dave, great info on LiPO, I am hopeful that the protection circuits will be developed soon and that the price will come down! I have considereed LIPO but the cost is high conpared to the Li-IOn packs I am building now. The possibilities are interesting. I keep thinking why not a LIPO pack that will fit under the roof of a Shay! 


This great discussion and I have learned a lot I didn't know. 

Again thanks to you both!


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

MIke, Missed your question to me Sorry. I do not agree totally with 4,5,&7. I solder packs together all the time. The trick is to use plenty of flux, and a very hot iron and get in and out very quickly. I also use 14 guage wire, which I have been told by smarter guys than me is overkill. I always test the cell after soldering. Some cells are made with Tabs to facilitate soldering. I have never used balancing and do not have any problems with my packs, but perhaps it is because I usually let them sit as I have them marked and try to rotate them. 

As for points 9 &10 I do not know enough to agree or disagree, but I would love to see the data and research behind those items. Please guide me to the source behind those two, as I would like to know more! 

Thanks again for bringing valuable info to the post!!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By billsharron on 06/17/2009 8:55 AM
MIke, Missed your question to me Sorry. I do not agree totally with 4,5,&7. I solder packs together all the time. The trick is to use plenty of flux, and a very hot iron and get in and out very quickly. I also use 14 guage wire, which I have been told by smarter guys than me is overkill. I always test the cell after soldering. Some cells are made with Tabs to facilitate soldering. I have never used balancing and do not have any problems with my packs, but perhaps it is because I usually let them sit as I have them marked and try to rotate them. 

As for points 9 &10 I do not know enough to agree or disagree, but I would love to see the data and research behind those items. Please guide me to the source behind those two, as I would like to know more! 

Thanks again for bringing valuable info to the post!!

One reference regarding point 9...about battery storage at reduced capacity is here http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-19.htm . 

If you go to part 2 you'll find a discussion about Lithium battery life being 2 to 3 years...and why (oxidation inside the battery) at http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm. I definitely recall reading more recently that the newer Lithiums can last up to five years...and that the capacity loss was linear (20% per year)...but I'll be damned if I can find that article now.


As for soldering...if there are tabs on the battery...solder away. My remarks were about soldering TO a cell directly. I should have been clearer. I'll bet those tabs you have are spot welded to the battery. For a reference regarding how to solder...or NOT solder to cells...go here...one of many articles out there http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/AAA4000/AAA4000PE6.pdf . Frankly, I've always felt that IF you are a good solderer...and know how to tin...and know how to flux...and are using the RIGHT iron size...you can probably solder to a Lithium battery fast enough to avoid damage. What you don't know...is even if you got a good solder connection...did you damage the battery insides? That's the crap shoot...and why I'd say get tabbed batteries IF you're going to make packs...or just have a pack made for you...welded style.


A little more background...when I was working, one project I became involved in...which went into production, was the replacement of Nimh batteries in Army backpack radios with Lithium technology. Weight was and is a big issue when you're humping radios and extra batteries around. Special forces teams carry as much weight in batteries in their packs as they carry food. Going to Lithium technology reduced the weight substantially and allowed them to carry more ammunition. The issue was battery life...and back in 2001...the science said that battery was depended on charge cycles for Lithium...and nothing else.

We started a project to test Sony and Sanyo Lithium technologies (those formulations are extremely proprietary) to see if their claims of increased charge cycles were true. The testing done by the Army showed that you could get 10,000 cycles out of each battery without loosing more than 5% of capacity. That was the good news. The bad news was that to do this, you had to almost "refrigerate" the batteries during their life. If they were handled like any other battery (i.e. stored outside on pallets under a tarp in desert)...the newer formulations weren't much better than the older Lithium formulations...but they still weighed less than half of a Nicad or Nimh battery for the same capacity. So...today, most PRC radios out there have LiPo batteries in them. 


I'm retired...so I'm out of the loop on some of the chemical advances being made by the battery guys...but those fires in the laptops provided a significant encouragement for technology advances by Sony and Sanyo...so I'm expecting there are other benefits coming out too...like longer shelf life...and that's why I've read 5 years/20% loss per year stuff. 


While looking for the battery life data I just found an improved Wiki article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery...and at the bottom are a bunch of good links too. If you follow the references in that, you get to some of the more modern research articles. Looks like the electric car industry is pushing the Lithium technology along pretty good...looking for 10 year batteries.


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## tj-lee (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike, 

I really appreciate your informative posts in this thread. 

Best, 
TJ


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

MIke, thanks. I am an Army guy myself, retired after 33 years. I carried a radio called the PRC-10 in 1962, we had other names for that miserable heavy thing that worked only half the time!!
I spent a lot of time on BU and totally missed that one, or don't remember it. I will be happy to get three years use out of my Li-ion Batteries. Since it only costs me about $30 bucks a pack to make them, $10 a year is fine with me. Five years would even be better. I will also be sure to buy from a high volume dealer. The soldering info was interesting, I knew I had to get in and out quickly, but did not know why on the top terminal. When I build a pack I do not use the tabbed batteries, because I cannot find any with the built in PCB protection circuit. The kind I buy have the PCB on the Neg end of the cell. Before I start I test each cell to see if they are balanced. If not, I charge them and leave them aside for a day or two and retest them. So far I have only had one cell slightly out of balance tho. I tape my cells together in the shape I want them and make 14 gauge jumpers. I tin the jumpers and tin both ends of each cell using a 230 watt iron. Less than 2 seconds on each end. I use plenty of flux adding flux after each joint. I then solder the jumpers onto the cells using the same 230 watt iron, but not till I am sure the heat from the tinning is cooled down, again 2 to 3 seconds. I then add my connector (A Standard Tamiya connector) same 2 to 3 seconds. I test each pack after building it. I first test the over voltage protection, by charging the pack fully. during the charging I feel each cell periodically to see if there is any evidence. The cells do not even get warm in normal charging if they are OK. After it is fully charge I check the voltage. My !4.4 volt packs top out at 15.7 volts when the protection circuit kicks in. If the pack is at 15.7 volts it passes in my system. I test the lower end cutoff the same way, by running the pack down and checking the bottom end voltage ( usually about 2.5 volts) If it cuts off in that area I consider it passed and put it into general use. By doing this I verify that I did not damage the PCB in the cells. Some guys use shrink wrap to cover the cells, but I use every day electrical tape to wrap the cells. I use stripes of colored electrical tape to identify each pack, then put the date and Pack ID letter on it. I use only steam engines on battery power, most except my Shay have only one motor. I run both indoors and out. In a typical operating session each of my five locomotives probably gets no more than 1 to 1 1/2 hours run time and I have never hit the low end voltage while operating. To get a feel for maximum run time I took a Bachmann Annie added ten cars, and ran them for over 5 hours before any real noticable slowdown occurs. Did the same with a Connie using the same cars, with similar results. I did the test on flat level track, just to keep the tests equal. I have been very pleasaed with the results. I recharge them on a ceramic tile, but have never in a couple of years of charging ever had a pack get even warm. I charge them after two sessions wether they need it or not. I used a 14.8 volt 2200 Mah pack. I just built two 2600 Mah 14.8 volt packs today. They tested cool and on target, still going in an Annie after six hours straight with 10 cars. Very boring!! I am to tired to keep going. so will quit after I finish this post.


Based on the info in your link to the soldering information it seems that the 230 watt soldering iron I use is on the smallish side. I may get a 500 watt iron. So far by tinning the cells and the jumpers using plenty of flux I have been able to get solid joints in 2 to 3 seconds which is safe. I make all my tender coal loads removable, so I can change a pack in about 10 seconds. I also use a battery car and can get my packs in the door without having to have a removeable roof. If i was just starting I would use the mini Tamiya connector instead of the larger ones, or I would try to find another type of smaller connector. If the expense is not important you can use tabbed Li-Ion batteries, and add a PCB add on made for 4 cells, I did one like this, and didn't like the extra work and the 25% increase in cost. Each of my packs is dated and identified so that I can keep track of them till they fail to be useful. I have no experience with large diesels with four motors, but I would think the run time should be 2 plus hours on level track, less depending on grades and loads pulled. 


BTW I drive a hybrid now with the older technology batteries. I am eagerly awaiting the Li-ion battery hybrids with a plug in cabability, and will buy one when they come out. 


I would be interested in hearing from members who have found a way to put onboard Li-ion batteries, which can be changed out quickly, into something like a USA TRains SD40-2. A removable hood perhaps?? 

I do not hide my so email anyone wishing info on the batteries I use and pricing info, email me and I will gladly pass on the specific site, and ways to get the best price.

Cheers!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sigh!!!!!!


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By billsharron on 06/17/2009 7:23 PM
I carried a radio called the PRC-10 in 1962, we had other names for that miserable heavy thing that worked only half the time!!




They weren't called pricks for nothing....


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi, 

This is one of the most interesting and informitve threads at MLS since a long time. We are using Li-Pos in our smaller models for four years now and never had faleures. OK, we ruined a few packs by discharging them too low. Li-Pos seem to getting cheaper than traditional rechargable battery packs. 

The two professional battery / RC fellows which were part of this discussion, seem to have ignored technical developments of the last some years. 
They have something to study now. Back to school, Dave & Tony.. 

I like the idea of using an US Mailbox as a container while charging batteries. Suppose they´d call the bomb sqad over here, if they see me connecting my mailbox to electricity. I am not really afraid of setting my locos to fire. Many of them are made from metal anyway. 










I can remove the hood of this one, but of course, I leave the batteries on-board and use a jack in the cab for charging. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Fritz. 
I am not saying don't use them. 
I am saying for a number of reasons, mostly safety oriented, that at this stage I cannot recommend them to my customers. 

I would certainly not recommend anyone soldering plain untabbed cells together simply because it is less expensive to do so. 
That is false economy. 
No matter how careful Mr Sharron is there are inexperienced solderers out there that will take his comments as a green light to do just that. If they leave the iron on the cell for too long (and how long is too long) they certainly run the risk of a catastrophic failure. Then who do you think is going to get the blame? 
Fortunately it will not be me. 
BTW. 
I use a Nokia cell phone which has a Li-Ion cell and has never given me any trouble for three years now. 
Unlike a digital camera in which the battery craps out every 18 months. 

Also. There are at least two other professionals that have contributed to this debate.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

I see this argument/discussion as similar to the arguments/discussions that occur in Live Steam every once in a while...

Someone is building a boiler and questions some method of construction or material selection aspect. The replies run the gamut of various problems and the pros and cons of how to do it and what methods and materials are "safe" and which are "unsafe" and which are "questionable". But there is some disagreement over these things... some REQUIRE something and others say they are doing/using something else "without a problem". Part of the argument is because they do not understand what each other's specific application really is.

The fear is always that some novice will read the "I've always done it this way and never had a problem" and will attempt to extrapolate other methods and materials that "in their own minds" are equivalent, yet due to their inexperience may then create a severe safety hazard.

Steel vs Copper boilers, Silver Solder vs Tin/lead solder (and where one is permissible and the other is "required"), Brass vs Bronze fittings and where each is a bad idea, Alcohol vs Butane vs Butane/Propane mix vs Propane vs Coal fuel... All kinds of trade offs and aspects that may or may not be viable or unsafe depending on a SPECIFIC situation/application.

The novice (sometimes more of an idiot) decides that the arguments just show that anything goes and figures that an old tin can will suffice for the boiler, Silver Solder is too expensive but they have some J B Weld in the pantry as well as are plastic pipe fittings from their old aquairum... so they build a "boiler"! Whoopie... now to heat it with an oxy-acetylene torch with a rosebud tip... Oops!























Complacency is as dangerous as ignorance OR stupidity. 

And note that ignorance is NOT necessarily the same as stupidity! Ignorance can be cured with education, Complacency is only cured by 1st hand experience, but Stupidity may be a permanent condition.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Fritz on 06/18/2009 6:58 AM
Hi, 

...The two professional battery / RC fellows which were part of this discussion, seem to have ignored technical developments of the last some years. 
They have something to study now. Back to school, Dave & Tony.. 

Fritz / Juergen 



Since this is the Beginner's Forum, perhaps I should comment on this remark. I've talked/chatted with both Dave and Tony. They have the same perspective...and for them, as professional installers, they have a point regarding safety that the Beginners here should understand, not withstanding all the stuff that's been posted on what to do and not do.

The history of the Lithium technology has a lot of road bumps...and since the companies and people who provide insurance for businesses are generally conservative, it means that from increases in liability insurance costs they must pay to a complete refusal to provide insurance, Lithium technology represents a real threat to their business from a liability standpoint. It's completely understandable that they would not want to provide that kind of service. But there's more...


There's the "customer" side. "Customers" have all sorts of backgrounds and capabilities. Some read all the instructions and understand them..and follow them. Some read all the instructions and think they understand them...when they don't. Some don't read all the instructions...and figure they have it handled...when they really don't. Some don't read any of the instructions. And some of the instructions suck...in that they're in Chinglish, or they're wrong, or they're written at too high a level requiring a vocabulary that the customer doesn't have.


Case in point...the link I provided to Panasonic on battery soldering tells you HOW to solder to one of their Lithium batteries. There's a catch in that instruction. It says, do not heat the cell to over 85 degrees C when you do the soldering. Well, that's techno-garble. Unless you're a company that can afford to instrument a soldering line with temperature sensors to ensure the cells internals don't go over 85 degrees C...there's no way to know that when you soldered to a cell that you didn't heat the chemicals at the end of the battery where you soldered over 85 degrees C...the chemicals at the very end of the cell. So, while there's a way to solder to a cell case, there's no way to tell if you did it safely...safely meaning KNOWING you have NOT screwed up the cell chemistry in such a way that it increases the probability of a failure (fire)..or reduced it's lifespan. From my research, I know of NO test that a consumer can run to determine this.


And..there's another catch too. No battery maker I know of recommends...key word...RECOMMENDS... that you ever solder to a battery...any kind of battery. OK...let's make that clearer. The actually recommend you do NOT solder to their battery cells...but, many (like Panasonic) will explain what you must do if you MUST solder to a battery. They do that because there are customers of theirs that need to do that. That does not mean a BEGINNER should attempt it just because it's possible and has seen others do it. There are soldering skills one must have at some high level in order to do cell soldering at low risk...and even then, you don't KNOW you didn't screw the cell up chemically. But...all in all...soldering to a cell is a personal choice...just understand your risks is all I'm saying.


And it's NOT just the battery you have to understand...there's the charger end of the game. I have a very nice Maha charger. It will charge Nimh, Nicads, and Lithiums. It's got it's own computer inside that monitors the whole charging process. And...it's got a 40 page instruction manual. There are two gotcha's with the nice charger. One...there's a Nimh/Nicad vs Lithium switch on the charger. If a user does NOT flip that to Lithium when he begins charging a Lithium pack...you could get a fire. The other gotcha is that you have to charge MORE than one Lithium cell when you charge. It's can't safely charge a single cell. Well that gotcha is buried inside the 40 pages. 

The point here goes to the "customer" capabilities. If you've read and UNDERSTOOD that 40 page manual, then it's possible to properly charge the Lithium batteries safely. If you haven't, it's possible to start a fire. Again...just understand your risks. If you're one that is NOT likely to really read and understand a charger manual...I would NOT recommend you get into Lithium technology.


Just two examples...soldering and charging. The BEGINNER, even if you've been in GRRing for 10 years, who is using Lithium technology for the first time...or maybe the 100th...NEEDS to really understand this stuff. It can be used safely if you follow the rules. But like gasoline or butane or propane or anyother high energy source, you can get burnt if you mess up...or from winging it because you know more...or think you do. 

Dave and Tony have a point...don't just ignore it. Lithium technology may not be for everyone.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Mr Walsham, I am only reporting what I do, it is up to the reader to decide what they want to do on not do. I follow the manufacturers instructions on all aspects of charging.. As for soldering I find from Mikes source that I should perhaps use a hotter iron, but the instructions on how to do it were very clear, No longer than five seconds per joint. They were also very clear on what damage could occur from overheating. The professional source did not even recommend testing after soldering, which is something I do for safety reasons. I feel that what I am doing follows the manufacturers soldering recommendations in every way and then some. I respect your decision not to recommend LI-Ions and Dave's not to use them, That is entirely up to you, I only express my views on what I do which diverges from your viewpoint and presents a differing view, and which is working fine for me. Nothing more! If I push the envelope a little by soldering packs, in the hopes of getting more power in a smaller package, that is up to me. I soldered Nimh batteries together for years to use in place of the manufacturers batteries in sound systems. If i had space for holders I used holders, I have never seen a difference in performance between either system, except that they were far better that the OEM batteries! 

Mikes points on safety as well as others and the possible mistakes due to using the wrong switch are well taken and should be heeded by all. I am not an Electrical engineer or professional but I do carefully read what they have to say, and appreciate their input. 

It would be great if some manufacturer would come up with a cheap simple battery holder that would hold four or even six 3.7 volt 18650 size Li-Ion batteries. (The size that goes into most laptops). There would be no soldering necessary. simply pop the cells in just like with the Radio Shack AA holders of various sizes. It would be a simple matter to charge all the batteries as a pack or remove them and charge them individually with a charger with slots. If something like this were available I'd quit soldering right now. Even the one pack I made with tabbed cells had to be soldered to the next cell. That is what the tabs are for unless you have a cell welder!! 

Anyone know of a source for holders?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been following this for a while. I believe I see the "opposing" viewpoints. Not really sure they are really opposing but, I have a couple of comments. 

1. Dave & Tony have had their say, and saying it more is not going to help. I'm not drawing sides here. 
2. I read the panasonic article that Mike posted. I have been in engineering quite a while and used li-ion and li-po in many designs as well as nicad and ni-mih. I understand the panasonic instructions. 
3. Bill is surely within his rights to risk his life/health/locos/batteries (choose any/all) and talk about it. 
4. Success in not damaging the batteries or himself does NOT guarantee what he is doing is a good idea or safe. 
5. I know that no matter how many caveats you put "don't do this yourself", SOMEONE will try it. I say that you cannot control this, but I think it is important, morally and ethically, to put those caveats out there AND discourage people from doing things you know are dangerous, even if you do it yourself. 

I do have a few of comments directed at Bill: 
1. You do NOT know that you are following the directions just because you use less than 5 seconds per joint. 
2. You do NOT know the heat of the cells when soldering, you need instrumentation to do this. 
3. You do NOT know that you need a hotter iron, the specification is 350 deg. C or 662 deg F... I can almost guarantee you that your non-temperature controlled iron is hotter than this. I use a temp controlled iron at 800 degrees and that's sometimes not enough. 

So, my suggestion is to get an IR thermometer (about $40) and measure the temp of your iron and the battery, and report back. You may find the results surprising. 

Regards, Greg


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

HI Greg, I appreciate your suggestions, and you are correct I do not know the temps, reading the cautions in the Panasonic article I am aware that too much heat "may cause reduction in battery function or in rare cases bursting". This is true and why we are always warned no to throw any battery regardless of type into a fire. I my case I feel that the functional testing I do after making a pack is adequate. If I find no loss of function, or heat while charging I feel that this is an adequate precaution on my part. I feel more comfortable than ever making packs the way I do especially after reading the Panasonic article several times. 

I will continue to monitor my packs and will report any problems with loss of function, overheating during charging, and or swelling or bursting of the casings. So far I have nothing to report.

Since you are or were in the business, I am curious to know how tough it would be to design a battery holder to fit the 18650 size 3.7 volt Li-Ion Battery. A holder for two cells could be used in many different configurations to make a four cell pack, or even six cell pack. If such a thing were available perhaps we would not even be having this discussion. There would certainly be no reason to solder anything to a cell

Regards


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One problem with battery holders is that it is easy for resistance to build up at the terminals/contacts. This can lead to local heating, and loss of voltage. I have never seen battery holders that made me want to use them on a regular basis, they all seem to have chrome plated springs/contacts. 

Also, all of my designs (pda's, portable hand held computers, etc.) had rechargeable batteries, and were either not user-replaceable, or had more sophisticated connectors to complete battery packs. 

With multiple cells, you have many locations that could get extra resistance, too many failure/danger points. If your current loads were always under an amp, my opinion is that cell holders would be fine, over that, I think we start losing reliability, power, and risk generating heat. 

If I had to use per cell holders, I would try to get some large contact surfaces to the battery and nicely sprung. I believe the cost would outweigh the utility. 

I've often said that purchasing a small spot welder to make up packs might be economically viable with enough batteries. 

Sorry I really did not answer the question directly, but this has been my experience with batteries in devices. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know anything about these battery packs, but as for battery holders, I'd suggest making a master from styrene, then make a rubber mold and try casting a few and see how they turn out. Contacts could be made from phosphor bronze sheet and either screwed to the cast battery holder or epoxied in place (I'd recommend the screw myself - more rugged). You may have to tape the batteries in as casting resin isn't that flexible. Might be worth a shot. If it doesn't work you won't have invested much.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi, 

There are a few sensational films in the www demontrating how to have fun with li-pos by making them burst in flames. Probably sponsored by the Anti-Li-Po Mafia. 
So some people board the train and start a discussion about the dangers of these type of batteries. Some seem not even to know, what they are talking about. 

Take a hammer. You can choose if you want to hit a nail on the head or your thumb. Take your car, you have the choice to drive it against the next wall or throw a burning match into the tank or use it to get from point A to B. Your TV set or computer screen can implode and set the house on fire. 
Never heard somebody advising not to use hammers, cars or TV sets. 

You don´t need 40 pages of instructions telling you what not to do with Li-pos. Half a page should suffice. Most people running trains have a basic knowledge about electricity and have seen sparks and smoke from their motors or decoders after making a mistake. Even the live steamers had flames out of the smoke stack. 

What I am missing in this thread are examples where people actually use Li-Pos. So far, we mainly use them where we have only little space for traditional battery solutions. My friend Juergen L. runs this little 16mm Scale/ 32mm gauge Lister tractor with Li-Pos positioned in the chassis. 










The small 433 Mhz receiver (Schroeder´s Train Control) is positioned under the roof. 












We are working on a second one using 2,4 Ghz RC components which are very much smaller. So we will not need the roof anymore. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Fritz. 

That is very nice modelling and creative engineering. 

Would you care to hazard a guess as to just who the *"Anti-Li-Po Mafia"* are?


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi, 

Thnak, but I would not consider it creative to glue or solder a few ready made parts together. The main challenge ist, to find them. 
Of course I have no idea, who the "Anti-Lipo-Mafia" might be. Possibly members from the Clockwork Brigade. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Aaaaah!!!! Clockwork. 

The ultimate, totally clean, rewindable energy.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Fritz, I agree with all your points. What a great piece of work you and your friend have done on that model.I too would love to hear fron others using LIPO technology in model trains. Looks like battery power would work in HO scale with LIPO. I would love to visit you and your layout. Where are you located??

Greg, All good points on battery holders, still I think I would try them if they ever come out. I like the idea that once the holder is set up and the connector is added, all one has to do is put the discharged cells into the charger then pop in the four charged cells. Since I will use a maximum of 10 packs, or 40 batteries. the welder idea is out for me, and I don't want to get into making packs as a business. 


I would love to hear reports from others actually using Li-ion or LIPO. Tell us your "personal" experiences, rather than what you have heard by the grapevine. 

My club is conning over so I am going out and play with trains for the weekend. 



Best to all.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For a person who pays attention to what they are doing, and I believe you are in that category Bill, keeping the terminals clean on battery holders is not an insurmountable problem. In a consumer device it would probably not be good. There's no reason you could not do exactly what Dwight suggested, or even take existing holders and solder phosphor bronze connections to them. 

The thing I would say is that years ago, people took separate AA cells and put them in battery holders that held 6 or 8 cells, and it just did not work well.. just too many points of failure or reduced conductivity. 

I recycle li-ion batteries from dead laptop packages, and there is usually enough of the tabs left after cutting the pack apart to solder to. Normally it's one or 2 cells that are no longer good. I check them all, condition them several times to measure actual amp hour capacity in discharge, and that my Maha terminates charge properly. 

Then I send them all to Mikey! Seriously! 

Regards, Greg


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/20/2009 11:42 AM
For a person who pays attention to what they are doing, and I believe you are in that category Bill, keeping the terminals clean on battery holders is not an insurmountable problem. In a consumer device it would probably not be good. There's no reason you could not do exactly what Dwight suggested, or even take existing holders and solder phosphor bronze connections to them. 

The thing I would say is that years ago, people took separate AA cells and put them in battery holders that held 6 or 8 cells, and it just did not work well.. just too many points of failure or reduced conductivity. 

I recycle li-ion batteries from dead laptop packages, and there is usually enough of the tabs left after cutting the pack apart to solder to. Normally it's one or 2 cells that are no longer good. I check them all, condition them several times to measure actual amp hour capacity in discharge, and that my Maha terminates charge properly. 

Then I send them all to Mikey! Seriously! 

Regards, Greg

He does...and that's one reason I did so much research. Ya gotta watch out for these Armenian guys...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Where where? ha ha ha! 

Greg


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Looks like battery power would work in HO scale with LIPO. I would love to visit you and your layout. Where are you located??


Hi, 

Over at the Freerail Forum a few people play around with batteries and RC in smaller 0n30 locos. http://www.freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 

We are in Germany, the 32mm gauge , 1 : 22,5 modular layout is in Gelsenkirchen. Working on a small Gn15 modular layout at in my place in Duesseldorf. We team up with other modules once or twice a year at different places in Germany. 

Had to tear up the 45mm garden railroad, but kept some locos and trains, mainly livesteam and battery / RC to run at gatherings or in the neighbourhood. Just got back from a lifesteam afternoon with Mr. Regner and Mr. Klebsch (miha-modell) No Li-Pos, only oldfashioned 40 Mgh RC. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

This discussion has been going on for five pages now.

I know absolutely nothing about batteries.

But I know this; If Tony and Dave say it is a bad idea, then I will not argue with them. Yes, maybe a hundred times it will work, but still . . . .

Lownote and Bill Sharron seem to think they know more about Dave and Tony, who make a living doing battery installs.

So who would you listen to?

It is a nobrainer for me.

John


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There is a newer Lithium technology out there, LiPo123, if I recall.....one of the operators here yesterday does radio control/electric airplanes, and yes, has had a LiPo go off in his shop. 
Since he monitored all charges with Lithiums (as directed), when he observed a pack swelling at an alarming rate, he grabbed the leads and flipped it out the door he keeps open during charging. 
Went off in his yard like a Roman Candle. 

He says this new battery can be charged at 10 amps with no heat buildup, but, that's not what we are talking about in this thread.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

...So who would you listen to?...

I liken it to skydiving. I'm not a big fan of jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. For me, that potential risk is enough to keep my butt firmly in my seat. I could cite accident after accident that shows what "can" happen. Others will readily counter with percentages that show that if you pack your chute properly, etc., etc., the chances of an accident are very, very slim, and you're more prone to get into an accident on your way home from the airfield. I don't doubt that, but it's still not enough convince me to unfasten my seatbelt until the flames are creeping up the aisle. Y'all go and have fun, I'll see you when I land. 

This debate is no different. You've got the cautious side that cites the consequences of failures. You can no more fault them for erring on the side of caution than you can fault a fish for swimming. But their perspective does not make the technology unsafe anymore than my perspective of skydiving makes jumping out of airplanes unsafe. That perspective must be contrasted with those involved in this debate who have had much more positive experiences with the technology. You can't call that perspective "wrong" or discount it as unfounded, either. The simple fact is that people have had good, safe results with lithium batteries, just as people have been safely jumping out of airlpanes for decades. That doesn't eliminate the risk potential--it's still very much there. 

It's not a question of "who would you to listen to," but where do you fall on the risk vs. reward spectrum. There's no right or wrong, only personal comfort. 

Later, 

K


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Amem


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

I know absolutely nothing about batteries. 




Well, what are you mingling in this discussion then, where some people actually have various different experieances with different kind of batteries. 
In this case, with Li-Pos. 

If you "know absolutely nothing about batteries" , how can you judge Tony´s or Dave´s point of view? One of my neighbours, a Muslim, does not eat 
pork or drink alcolhol. Does this mean, alcohol or porc is bad for the rest of the world? 

I am still waiting for a large scaler in here, who actually blew up his train model with Li-Pos. Over here, they are sold in model shops, even to minors. You don´t need a gunpowder or explosive licenze to purchase them. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I have delt with Dave on many occasions and i would trust his opinion concerning any aspect of large Scale without question.

Maybe i am naive, but that is how I feel about the subject.

And, yes, i have read most of these posts and no, I have not butted in except for my one post confirming my confidence that whatever Dave tells me about batteries is honest, factual and in my best interest.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

This thread is getting a little confrontive, and I don't think it needs to. 

OK, so John says he knows nothing about batteries, but would take the word of Dave and Tony. 

Fritz, I don't think you have to confront this, while semantically valid, you missed John's point I believe. 

I might not agree with every fine point in this thread with Dave or Tony, but if I was to pick from a number of people whose whoesale guidance I had to take, like I was on a desert island with boxes of locos that had to be converted to battery R/C... and I got to choose one person to help/mentor/teach me, you would be hard pressed to get better overall advice than choosing Dave or Tony. 

Neither of them would put you in a position of an unworkable system, or unreliable, or unmaintainable, etc. 

I think this was John's point, or at least part of it. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Today I visited my long time (20 years) battery supplier. 
This company is the Sanyo distributor in Australia an is the major supplier of batteries to the medical industry. 
I asked about Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries and the general manager (who is very familiar with my requirements) what did he recommend for my usage. 

The (most) emphatic answer was definitely *NOT* Li-Po. They did sell them at one stage but ceased doing so as a result of all the "problems" they had. When pressed he explained the "problems" as being a propensity to swell up and burst on their own and during charging. Many of which also caught fire when they swelled up and burst. 
So, all you enthusiastic Li-Po users, please feel free to use and recommend them. 
I will pass on Li-Po. 

On the other hand, they have a a huge range of Li-Ion batteries now and he has convinced me to at least try some made up packs that will likely suit what I need. 
I will be ordering some soon and will report back on what I have discovered with practical usage in the field.


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Neither of them would put you in a position of an unworkable system, or unreliable, or unmaintainable, etc. 





Suppose they do the best they can for their customers. Tony´s wolrk is known all over the Western world. never heard or read an ad of a firm called Curmudgeon. But that does not really answers the initial question "Are Lipo batteries prone to blowing up?" 

It seems, most reported accidents with Li-pos occured in English spoken countries. I am not trying to express, nothing ever happens in Good Old Europe. But at least over here the experts advise not to poor water over deformed or burning Li-Pos. It´s like pooring oil in the fire. The same applys to Ll-IONS. 
So have a shovel of sand ready. Or a chemical fire estinguisher. 

This does not make them the first choice for Garden Railway locos, which sometimes run in all kind of wheather. But we run these live-steam flame throwers through dry gardens as well. The live steamers are accustomed to take some safety precautions. Most of us survived so far. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/19/2009 6:28 AM
Aaaaah!!!! Clockwork. 

The ultimate, totally clean, rewindable energy.

Now THERE'S an IDEA!!!! Anybody have a commercial source for good, heavy duty, long running clockwork mechanisms? I hate trying to rework those from old alarm clocks. The spring always seems to go BLOOOOING! all over the place -- Then trying to get it back IN the case (without it going bloooing at least 4 more times) is a real pain.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Look on ebay for Meccano clockwork motors. 

Later, 

K


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Try here: http://ca.geocities.com/[email protected]/ 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## SE18 (Feb 21, 2008)

I noticed that the PRC-77 was mentioned; which i used in the Marines back in the 1970s. 

Some recent articles came out regarding battery technology and the military and I found that the Army stockpiles "13 different types of lithium-based batteries... from 3 V to 24 V for ...portable electronic systems. The most common chemistry is lithium sulfer dioxide", considered super safe. 

They also look at shelf life and whether it gives off heat or noise (I didn't know this but some batteries make noise b/c of moving parts. Ruggedness also is a deciding factor. 

"In addition, the Army is looking at fuel cells and zinc-air power sources for recharging batteries in the field. " 

Here's an excellent article: 

http://mobiledevdesign.com/hardware_news/radio_military_takes_aim/ 

and a more general one: 

http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/06/1...ordered-in-army-inventory/?ref=home-ata71-img 

in these cases, it is not the military developing things that civilians can use but the other way around 

also, it is communications systems, e.g., cell phones, that are driving technology


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