# Matching rechargeable batteries with sound systems and chargers?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a variety of sound systems some perhaps 20 years old or older. Most have Ni-Cad batteries and most have been discontinued. Some were built into the sound system (non-replaceable) and have gone bad and the manufacturers are now out of business.

Meanwhile most current small rechargeable batteries now tend to be NiMH.

Since I don't run the locos enough to keep the sound systems charged I usually have to resort to an external battery charger to get the batteries charged.

These batteries usually tend to be either AA or 9 volt (I realize there are at least two different voltages for 9 volt rechargeable batteries).

This leads to these main concerns:

1. How can I tell what substitute batteries can be used with the various sound systems without worrying about damage from the sound systems recharging circuit? Often the batteries do not have any sort of label showing their volts, amps or recharging requirements.

2. How can I tell if a battery charger will also work with the batteries in a sound system?

3. How can I tell if a sound system needs Ni-Cad or NiMH and can some work with both?

4. I have rechargeable AA batteries from around 750 mah to 2,500 mah. some re-chargers do not specify the range of batteries they can charge. Is there a formula or way to tell what will work?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm. Maybe too big a question. I just run the sound system from the engine battery.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry. 

No disrepect intended but I haven't used a back up battery with a sound system for years. 
I always set them up to run off the traction batteries and then there is no need to worry about charging them as well.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Tony and Tom,

Since I don't use battery power I do not understand the answers.

Even if I did run battery power my batteries would be 12, 14.4, 19.2 or higher volts so how would I run a sound system that was designed to run on 6 volts or 9 volts from a battery of much higher voltage?

Also how would I get standing sounds from a battery car when the loco is not (or barely) moving?

More important is how to use a battery for a sound system that was made for and run on track power without the correct battery size that the manufacturer designed it for?

If I bypassed the rechargeable battery concept and plugged in a regular alkaline battery and it was fed a charging current from the sound system I suspect that at the least the battery and or the sound system could be destroyed.

I do not understand Ni-Cad and NiMH charging systems which is why I posted the topic.

It would seem to me that I should be able to measure the current flowing from a sound system to its rechargeable battery to give me an idea of which batteries would be compatible with it.

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
Batteries put out a constant voltage, the RSC on board regulates the power to the motors. 
A rectifier is usually used to drop the voltage to the specs needed for other applications like lights and sound. 
My sound card was ordered with a 18v to 5v rectifier so I take full power from the bats while standing still, plenty of sound. 

I have no knowledge of battery equiped sound.... 

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 25 Nov 2009 10:46 AM 
Jerry, 
Batteries put out a constant voltage, the RSC on board regulates the power to the motors. 
A rectifier is usually used to drop the voltage to the specs needed for other applications like lights and sound. 
My sound card was ordered with a 18v to 5v rectifier so I take full power from the bats while standing still, plenty of sound. 

I have no knowledge of battery equiped sound.... 

John 

Hi John,

Since my track powered sound systems depend on the varying track voltage to control the chuff rate and the battery mainly serves to maintain minimum sound system voltage for low speed and standing sounds for a short time I don't see how I could how I could use a different voltage battery to work with the sound systems - especially since the sound systems would be sending out a charging voltage.

Perhaps I am missing something.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I use only Phoenix sound, so I can't speak for others. Phoenix sound boards show a wiring diagram for battery power in their manuals. You simply connect the battery (20 volts maximum) where the small backup battery used to plug in. The output of the speed control connects to the track inputs on the sound board. Now you sound board has constant power when sitting idle, and thus you get the idle sounds. Throw away the old backup battery, as you no longer need it.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
Give Dave Goodson a call. He's very familiar with NiCad and NiMH batteries and more importantly, their charging! He has a nice high-end battery charger that can handle everything from NiCad to LiON and it discriminates as to the voltages and the amperages! He also will be able to address your individual needs. 1-425-823-3507


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry. 
When a loco is powered by a constantly available voltage such as batteries or track power, most of the sound systems do not require a battery to back up the sounds when the loco is at idle or barely moving. 
It does depend on the sound system, but generally, the operator simply connects the traction batteries, or fixed track voltage, to the appropriate points on the sound system. Some sounds such as Sierra do require a regulated voltage and not unlimited voltage. The back up batteries are discarded. 
As I explained I cannot recall recently installing any sound system that requires a back up battery.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 25 Nov 2009 03:29 PM 
Jerry. 
When a loco is powered by a constantly available voltage such as batteries or track power, most of the sound systems do not require a battery to back up the sounds when the loco is at idle or barely moving. 
It does depend on the sound system, 

Tony,

This may be true with a battery, Revolution or MTS/DCC systems that have a constant track voltage but with traditional analog (variable) track power (even with a chuff switch) there has to be a source of voltage to power the sound system or it cannot operate.

No track voltage and no back up battery (or capacitor) = no sound.

For my terminology track power tends to mean that there is a variable track voltage to control the motors in the locomotives. Systems such as the Revolution or DCC where there is a constant track voltage at all times do not fit my definition of track power even though they get power from the track.

For the vast majority of my sound systems and the way that I use them (traditional analog track power) there MUST be a capacitor (LGB) or a battery (non-LGB) to keep the sound system running when the loco is standing still or just starting to move. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham on 25 Nov 2009 11:04 AM 
Jerry,
Give Dave Goodson a call. He's very familiar with NiCad and NiMH batteries and more importantly, their charging! He has a nice high-end battery charger that can handle everything from NiCad to LiON and it discriminates as to the voltages and the amperages! He also will be able to address your individual needs. 1-425-823-3507


Hi Steve,

I am looking for batteries that can be charged and kept charged by the sound systems rather than by an external charger. In the case of Soundtraxx Sierra I have both their chargers and also after-market capacitors that handle the situation. 

My primary concern is for other older sound systems especially some that were made by manufacturers now out of business such as PH Hobbies.

I hate to bother people like Dave who are in the business of selling and installing systems when I am looking for free advice but if all else fails I will probably call him.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jerry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 25 Nov 2009 09:49 AM Also how would I get standing sounds from a battery car when the loco is not (or barely) moving?




Jerry - Your questions prompted out answers about battery power. Now you know.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
Sorry, nothing I said applies to your system. 
Have a Happy Thanksgiving 

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 25 Nov 2009 05:36 PM 
Jerry - Your questions prompted out answers about battery power. Now you know. 

Hi Del,

I don't know what I know now that I did not know before. I always knew that I was not interested in battery power and I think that everyone who knows me knows how I feel about batteries (_I HATE BATTERIES_[/b]).
















Batteries are like ticking time bombs. You know they will ALL fail and have to be replaced eventually. I have lost track of things I have had to throw away just because a battery failed and a replacement was too expensive or virtually impossible to replace. Right now there are at least 50 batteries slowly discharging, then deteriorating and then corroding my sound systems.









The ONLY battery power I run is with 14.4 volt NiCad batteries that I got with surplus hand vacuum cleaners ($15 for vacuum cleaner and battery and charger) or one that I won as a door prize.

The same is true of these sound systems. They are perfectly good except for the da*n batteries that have failed in them.









Batteries? Bah!!! Humbug!!!









Now you know.









Cheers,

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Except of course when you want to run something at Marty's.









What we have been pointing out is that as we *DO NOT* need extra batteries to power our sound systems we cannot help you.
I would respectfully suggest you contact the maker of the sound system you need a battery for, and ask them.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 25 Nov 2009 06:34 PM 
Except of course when you want to run something at Marty's.









What we have been pointing out is that as we *DO NOT* need extra batteries to power our sound systems we cannot help you.
I would respectfully suggest you contact the maker of the sound system you need a battery for, and ask them.


Hi Tony,

Regarding Marty's I had not thought to put Kadee couplers on anything so my locos would not connect with the cars at Marty's. It did not matter as I ran someone else's loco and train anyway.

I have nothing against battery power for other people - there are some nice features available with it - but for myself I am just not interested.

Regarding the sound systems, as I mentioned, some of the manufacturers are now out of business and some of the sound systems do not even have a manufacturer marked on them. If it was as easy as contacting the manufacturer that is the first thing I would have done.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Jerry - Nobody is trying to talk you into battery power. You asked how sound boards work on battery power.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 25 Nov 2009 06:58 PM 
Jerry - Nobody is trying to talk you into battery power. You asked how sound boards work on battery power.








No Del,

I said "These batteries usually tend to be either AA or 9 volt"

I was not asking about running anything on battery power.

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Given that no brands of sound systems, extinct or otherwise, were mentioned in your original post, you need to be more specific when describing which particular batteries you want information about. They are definitely not one size fits all. 
That problem is eliminated when the loco is powered by batteries or constant voltage on the track. 

If you do take one of your locos to run at Marty's you will have to use battery power.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 25 Nov 2009 09:49 AM 

Also how would I get standing sounds from a battery car when the loco is not (or barely) moving?


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry;

Strangely enough we had a similar problem with Sierra sound today. When we Googled it we came across George Sch's website.

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips6/sierra_tips.html George suggested getting rid of the "Gel Cells" and replacing with NiMH. We went to the local hobby shop and purchased a rechargeable 1500 amp hourbattery for $10. After charging, It worked fine when track power was off.

We also have an old PH sound but I haven't replaced the battery yet. We bashed the loco to run on 18v drill batteries for snow plowing. We also put some Phoenix sound in Box cars with 9v Alkaine back-up. (Need to verify).

Also sent you a PM.

Dick


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 25 Nov 2009 07:32 PM 
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 25 Nov 2009 09:49 AM 


Since I don't use battery power I do not understand the answers.

Even if I did run battery power my batteries would be 12, 14.4, 19.2 or higher volts so how would I run a sound system that was designed to run on 6 volts or 9 volts from a battery of much higher voltage?

Also how would I get standing sounds from a battery car when the loco is not (or barely) moving?





Del,

You took my comment out of context. I added the part you left out (in blue).

What I was saying was that I DON'T USE BATTERY POWER... so... how would I get standing sounds from a battery car (ON A TRACK POWERED LAYOUT) when the loco is not (or barely) moving? The only useful application of a battery car to me would be as a substitute for four AA or a single 9 volt battery. So my question would amount to why would I use a battery car when all I am looking for is a way to identify and charge four AA or a single 9 volt battery?

If someone offers battery power answers to non-battery power questions it has no bearing on the topic. 
Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 25 Nov 2009 07:26 PM 
Given that no brands of sound systems, extinct or otherwise, were mentioned in your original post, you need to be more specific when describing which particular batteries you want information about. They are definitely not one size fits all. 
That problem is eliminated when the loco is powered by batteries or constant voltage on the track. 

If you do take one of your locos to run at Marty's you will have to use battery power. 

Tony,

I don't understand why you seem to think that I am stupid or something.

I own and run trains with Analog Track Power, MTS, DCC, DCS, Revolution, Battery Power and Live Steam. I do not need advice on how to run my trains or my sound systems. *My questions are about AA batteries and 9 volt batteries - nothing more and nothing less.*

I have not the slightest idea how Marty's is supposed to have anything to do with this topic. If I want to run something at Marty's I will throw an E8 and a vacuum cleaner battery and a Revolution into the car (that should take about 5 minutes max) and I will be ready to go. That issue was resolved before I went to Maryt's LAST YEAR and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC.

Do you not think that I know what I need if I want to run something at Marty's? After all I have been there several times and I have managed to survive somehow. If not I don't think I need advice from someone who has never been there (as far as I know). The truth is that it is NOT IMPORTANT to me whether I run anything at Marty's or not. I go there because of the people who are there and it matters very little if I run anything I own or not.

If the information I provided is not sufficient for you then I would suggest that you stand back and allow someone else - who may understand my questions better - to answer my questions with the information I am seeking.

This topic has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH BATTERY POWER.[/b] I will say it again I HATE BATTERIES[/b]







- and I doubt that I will ever own a battery powered system other than the Aristo-Craft locomotives because they let me run batteries perhaps two days a YEAR which is about equal to my interest in battery power.[/b]

If the answer in any way involves battery power you can rest assured you (or someone else) did not bother to read my original post on this topic. I am NOT looking for opinions - I am looking for specific answers to specific questions about rechargeable AA and 9 volt batteries. Anything else is off topic.

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Now now Jerry. 

Don't get your knickers in a twist. 
We are smart, but none of us can read minds. 
You have still not quoted any brand specific sound systems and unless you do no one is going to be able to help you. 
PERIOD.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
Having fun yet? sigh.... 

Sir the way I read your questions and there were several, was 1st; What kinds of batteries are these? hint; from out of production systems... I dunno 

Then you did ask how to use an over powered electrical storage system ,I said rectifiers/regulators, turns out that did apply... Step it down. 

It is unlikely that the trickle charge your outdated system returns to the, dare I say it, battery, can identify the old bat and would probably have an adverse effect upon non rechargables. You answered that one your self. (also rechargables AAs are rated at 1.2 v vs. 1.5 for non.) 

Higher Amp hours require a longer charge, not a higher one. 

What batteries to use as replacements? Start with the lowest voltage and work up; add one at a time, until the sound sounds right. Underpower shouldn't have adverse effects, while over powering oft leads to blue smoke.... but you should hear distortions before the smoke occurs. 

"Also how would I get standing sounds from a battery car when the loco is not (or barely) moving?" 

You brought this up, so you'd step down the juice from that car and feed it in where the old bat was. Your use of 'also' makes it seem like a stand alone question... So this noob decided he could help with that one. It doesn't matter where the bats are or if it's too powerful, you want power to the sound when track power is off, right? So either source is ok, it's the voltage that is the question. Experiment with individual batteries until you determine the voltage, then rectify as necessary... use your favorite rechargables as they will accept the charge sent their way when track power is running the show. Your system already knows when it's on battery power as it puts out standing still noises, when track power goes off or way down (barely crawling), it switches internally to the stand by power... All you need is the substitute source. You have a rechargable already and don't want more, eh? So to utilize that one you'd need a rectifier/regulator for it. If you don't want to use that one, why bring it up? 

Did you Google; PH hobbies? I did and there were topics of discussions.... I didn't go in there, was just looking... might find your answers from there. 

Have a Happy Thanksgiving. 

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 25 Nov 2009 11:16 PM 
Now now Jerry. 

Don't get your knickers in a twist. 
We are smart, but none of us can read minds. 
You have still not quoted any brand specific sound systems and unless you do no one is going to be able to help you. 
PERIOD. 


Tony, 

I think you are totally missing my point which is not brand specific but rather it is battery type and voltage specific.

I don't think that a NiCad AA 1000 mah battery cares what brand of sound system it is installed in. I am not an engineer but I suspect that a battery system and a recharger that would work with a NiCad 1000 mah battery would not care which brand of sound system it was installed in. I would also suspect that a sound system and an external charger that would work with a AA NiCad 1000 mah battery would work pretty much the same and put out the same or very close to the same charging voltage.

Actually that is exactly the point of this topic. I am trying to find out:

1. what are the hazards and potential problems of substituting a replacement battery in a charging system (sound system) that is of the same battery size (AA, 9V etc.) but
a. is of a different type (NiMH replacing NiCad) or
b. is of a different rating (2500 mah rather than 1000 mah)

2. if the original battery is unmarked as to mah (but can be assumed to be NiCad) can I reverse engineer the acceptable battery ratings (mah) by measuring the output (charging) voltage of the charging (sound) system?

I have AA NiMH batteries that run from 1000 mah up through 2,500 mah yet they work with the same recharger. Some rechargers are rated for only NiCad or NiMH while others are rated for both NiCad and NiMH. In effect I am asking which rechargers (sound systems) can work with which batteries. The question is not based on the sound systems - it is based on the batteries used by those sound system recharging circuits.

If my questions provide insufficient information for you that is OK because I have been receiving some information by private email from others who understood my questions very well.

I think it is evidence of a significant problem and a highly visible conflict of interest here on MLS when people feel more comfortable responding by private email to a generic public question because a manufacturer or reseller of battery powered system inject their battery power opinions into a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with battery power and was posted by a person (me) who has not the slightest interest in battery power.[/b]

This is now the 25th post on this topic about rechargeable AA and 9 volt batteries[/b] and yet the topic has been so obscured by battery power comments that it is devoid of any specific information about AA and 9 volt rechargeable batteries and their charging requirements.

I cannot stretch my imagination far enough to see how comments about battery power for locomotives fits into into a topic titled "Matching rechargeable batteries with sound systems and chargers?"

Most people know what OT (off topic) or NT (not about trains) stand for in a topic heading. Perhaps we need a new abbreviation such as NBP to signify that a topic has Nothing to do with Battery Power. 

Can I assume that by your comment "You have still not quoted any brand specific sound systems and unless you do no one is going to be able to help you. 
PERIOD." that if I do NOT quote any brand specific sound systems that you will go away?









Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 26 Nov 2009 06:49 AM 

Higher Amp hours require a longer charge, not a higher one. 

Hi John,

This is the first bit of information I really needed.

The other comments were the result of responses to responses rather than to my original topic.

Actually I am not looking for any change in battery type or (battery rated) voltage. If a sound system currently uses four AA batteries I intend to replace those four AA batteries with four new AA batteries and if a sound system currently uses a 9 volt battery I intend to replace it with a 9 volt battery.

You answered my first question and based on your answer I should be able to substitute a AA 2,500 mah battery for a AA 1,000 mah battery. It would not concern me if it would take longer to recharge the batteries as long as I would not damage those batteries. THAT IS A MAJOR ANSWER that I was looking for.

My only concern with voltage changes is regarding rechargeable 9 volt batteries because some of them are only rated at 7.2 volts and others have a 8+ volt rating. I am concerned that a sound system designed to recharge a 7.2 volt (9V) battery might not recharge a higher voltage (9V) battery or if a sound system designed to recharge a 9 volt battery that is of a higher voltage than 7.2 volts might damage a 7.2 volt battery.

My next and greatest concern is whether I can substitute NiMH AA and 9 volt batteries in sound systems that were designed for NiCad batteries because I have an abundance of rechargeable NiMH batteries and NiCad batteries are becoming harder to find.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you'll have to figure it out sound system by sound system. Don't know what you'll do about them going dead while you're not using them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmmm... there must be something really wrong with me, because I understood Jerry's questions the first time.

Well, maybe a good tack is answering them one at a time?

"1. what are the hazards and potential problems of substituting a replacement battery in a charging system (sound system) that is of the same battery size (AA, 9V etc.) but
a. is of a different type (NiMH replacing NiCad) or
b. is of a different rating (2500 mah rather than 1000 mah)
"

Well, the basic problem is that the "charging systems" in most of these sound cards are really not smart or sophisticated.

That has pluses and minuses, but to get the complete answer, you will probably have to examine each one down to the circuit details.

That's probably not a real helpful answer, so my next best answer is: You want to stay as close to the original battery chemistry and amp hour ratings as you can.

Since the chargers are usually not sophisticated, a replacement battery of greatly different amp hour rating could at least radically change the charging time.

In the worst case, it could damage the charging system (draw too much current) or damage the battery (be charged with too much current).

I would stop short of varying the capacity by more than 20-25% from the original, my best advice.

Changing the chemistry:

Lithium (but it's unikely you have these) should never be replaced with any other chemistry period, the charging and voltage characteristics are just too different.

For nicad nickel metal hydride I would say, based on all the systems I have seen, they can be interchanged. They are very similar, and for the unsophisticated chargers I have experienced, it would not matter.

Now, some systems used gel cells. These are basically a lead acid battery, and can take a small overcharge continuously like nicads, so this might work, but the problem is gel cells do not come in the same voltages as nicads and nickel metal hydrides, so if you had a nicad pack that came to EXACTLY the same voltage as a gel cell, I would say yes, but in my experience this does not happen often. 

Hope this helps for your first question.


Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 26 Nov 2009 01:05 PM 
You want to stay as close to the original battery chemistry and amp hour ratings as you can.[/b]

Since the chargers are usually not sophisticated, a replacement battery of greatly different amp hour rating could at least radically change the charging time.[/b]

In the worst case, it could damage the charging system (draw too much current) or damage the battery (be charged with too much current).[/b]

I would stop short of varying the capacity by more than 20-25% from the original, my best advice.[/b]

Changing the chemistry:

For nicad nickel metal hydride I would say, based on all the systems I have seen, they can be interchanged. [/b]They are very similar, and for the unsophisticated chargers I have experienced, it would not matter.[/b]

Hope this helps for your first question.


Regards, Greg 



Hi Greg,

BINGO!

You have somehow managed to understand exactly what I was trying to find out and responded with the specific information I have been looking for.

Most important to me, you have given me information I can now act on.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gerry, 

Tom has it right. 
There can be no generalisation when it comes to batteries and chargers. 
You will still need to quote what brand of sound it is you wish to replace the batteries for. Otherwise you could end up with a disaster. 

The fact remains that when you use a constant track voltage or on board batteries as the power source for the loco you do not need back up batteries for a sound system. 
That is advice I give freely with no particular agenda in mind other than as a solution to the problems of sound system batteries failing. 

If you could get over your hatred of anything batteries and direct your intense paranoia to listening to what you are being told, you could well end up with some useful information.


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

*Tony,
**I respect your electronic knowledge but question your comment about still needing to know the brand. If you know the battery that came out, you have a pretty good idea of the requirements of the system it has been used in. Armed with that knowledge (voltage and capacity) I believe we should be able to find a pretty good replacement without needing to know the brand of a system. I agree with Greg that replacing Nicd with a comparable voltage & capacity Nmhi should work fine and as Greg also stated don't even think of using lithium. We're talking DC here so as Tony was trying to communicate, weather our motor power comes from the track or from a battery system is irrelevant. If I understand the question Jerry, your concern is on the other side of the sound system which I would call the reserve or back-up power system. This is the sound systems power source used when our track power or motor power (in a battery syst) is reduced to 0 volts(Jerry did say he was not using constant track voltage.*

* Now Jerry, I think Tony is also trying to tell you that the battery systems will have power available to run your sound system even when the power to the motor has been reduced. The voltage may be too high, but could easily be reduced, and the capacity should not be an issue.....but of course this is meaningless to you because..........YOU HATE BATTERIES!!!*








*Jerry, I don't believe you need to know the brand of the sound system, but you will have to identify the voltage and approximate capacity of the original batteries in order to come up with a replacement. **Voltage can be determined by counting the cells & multiply times 1.2 Volts. Nicd & Nimh are about the same so just replace the same number of cells. Capacity can very roughly be determined by the physical size of the cells, so go the same or a little larger. Assuming you're dealing with a 4 cell pack or an 8 cell pack, I would use for a charger one of the chargers that comes with any older RC system....you got an old Futaba set laying around from your neighbors kids plane that he crashed 6 years ago? This may be shooting from the hip, but it's fun! I would also monitor the temp of the packs the first time or two*.

Don slowly backs down off the soap box turns and runs!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Don. 
With respect. 

Whilst I know your intentions are well meant they are not entirely correct. 
Whilst it is OK to use NiMH as replacements for NiCd in general use, NimH batteries should never be used as simple replacements for NiCd cells where the sound system charges the batteries. Whilst NiCd's can be left on a standard trickle charge without any damage it is definitely *NOT SO*[/b] with NiMH. They must *NEVER* be left on charge any longer than it takes to fully charge them. In other words, if they are left on a continual trickle charge they will be over charged and internal damage will result in a shortening of their life span. 
NiMh batteries should only ever be charged with peak detection chargers. 
Hence we need to know what the sound systems are. That way we can determine pretty well what type of charging circuit the sound system has.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By sailbode on 26 Nov 2009 03:52 PM 
*Tony,
* *I respect your electronic knowledge but question your comment about still needing to know the brand. If you know the battery that came out, you have a pretty good idea of the requirements of the system it has been used in. Armed with that knowledge (voltage and capacity) I believe we should be able to find a pretty good replacement without needing to know the brand of a system. 

I agree with Greg that replacing Nicd with a comparable voltage & capacity Nmhi should work fine 

your concern is on the other side of the sound system which I would call the reserve or back-up power system. This is the sound systems power source used when our track power or motor power (in a battery syst) is reduced to 0 volts.*

*Now Jerry, I think Tony is also trying to tell you that the battery systems will have power available to run your sound system even when the power to the motor has been reduced. 

of course this is meaningless to you because..........YOU HATE BATTERIES!!!*









Hi Sailbode,

I think it could be assumed that if I hate batteries I would not have a battery system available to run a sound system.

Since I am as interested in battery cars as much as I am interested in battery systems it can also be assumed that I do not have battery cars.

Further, since I have somewhere between 50 and 100 sound systems with batteries in various stages of discharge, deterioration and corrosion it can also be safely assumed that I am not going to rush out and buy 50 - 100 battery power systems, battery cars or $50 - $100+ batteries capable of running a locomotive - just to replace four AA batteries or one 9 volt battery (that's why I prefer variable track power over all other systems for the majority of my trains.

The truth is that I do not really hate batteries but I do hate the inconvenience, expense and damage that I associate with them so I go to every possible length to avoid buying battery powered things if I can manage with hard wired devices.

When I think of rechargeable batteries I think of:

cell phones
alarm clocks (either battery or with battery backup)
flash lights including expensive Mag Lites
spotlights
lanterns
GPSs
wired telephones with battery backup
computer batteries
tooth brushes
film cameras
digital cameras
caller ID devices
toy battery powered trains
infrared scopes
night vision scopes
hunting lights
alarm systems
clocks, clocks and more clocks
locomotive sound systems
tape cassette recorders
cordless phones
battery powered tv sets
various brands of rechargeable alkaline batteries (huge waste of money)

I could come up with many more but these items came to mind as I sit here writing this. What they all have in common is that I had to throw them all away because their batteries failed and either damaged the device beyond economical repair, or were non-user replaceable or the cost of replacement batteries exceeded their value to me.

Most if not all of the items were perfectly good except for the non-functioning rechargeable batteries


My point is that with my stated negative attitude toward battery power for MY trains (I am not concerned with what others choose for their trains) it is totally illogical for anyone to suggest an answer to my questions that in any way involves battery power beyond the specified AA and 9 volt backup batteries for my sound systems.

If this makes me paranoid about battery power then so be it but why would any logical person approach a paranoid person with suggestions that involve using battery power? 

Actually your comment "I agree with Greg that replacing Nicd with a comparable voltage & capacity Nmhi should work fine" [/b]reconfirms Greg's response to my primary concern which was whether I can replace dead Ni-Cad batteries with the same type of NiMH batteries. 

Perhaps a paranoid person enjoys watching an illogical person bashing his head against a brick wall over and over and over again.









Thanks,

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

If Gerry chooses to ignore expert technical advice acquired by me from the battery manufacturers over 25 years of dealing with batteries, that is his problem. Not mine.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 26 Nov 2009 04:23 PM 
NimH batteries should never be used as simple replacements for NiCd cells where the sound system charges the batteries. Whilst NiCd's can be left on a standard trickle charge without any damage it is definitely [bNOT SO[/b] with NiMH. They must never be left on charge any longer than it takes to fully charge them. In other words, if they are left on a continual trickle charge they will be over charged and internal damage will result in a shortening of their life span. 
NiMh batteries should only ever be charged with peak detection chargers. 
Hence we need to know what the sound systems are. That way we can determine pretty well what type of charging circuit the sound system has. 

Once again please give me credit for a minimum of intelligence and awareness of what I am attempting. If more (significant) questions were made about how I use my sound systems the answers would have put such questions to rest.

On average most of my trains are run no more than once a quarter (if that) - yes - four times a YEAR.

When I do run trains I seldom run them for over an hour at the most per train (never enough to over charge even an almost fully charged battery).

I would guesstimate that 95% of all my sound system batteries are currently at 25% or less charge except a VERY few that I might recharge externally before use. Even then it is unlikely that I will run those locos more than half an hour or so before I put them up.

From what I have been reading from Greg etc. I should be able to take a sound system with less than a 50% charge and run it well over an hour without any danger of overcharging it even if replacing a Ni-Cad with a NiMH battery.

Since I do have the proper chargers for my NiMH batteries and those chargers show the recharge times it would seem very safe to me to cut the recharging time in half which would make the sound systems fully functional without concern for overcharging batteries. If necessary I could discharge the batteries before recharging them to avoid topping off an almost fully charged battery before putting it into a sound system charging circuit.

I bought many of my locomotives used and many came with unspecified sound systems often from out of business manufacturers. I simply DO NOT KNOW who made many of my sound systems so working without a brand or model is not an option - it is a fact.

The critical factor is that I AM THE OWNER OF THESE SOUND SYSTEMS so if I elect to take a chance on something it is my chance to take or not to take. It is not up to someone else to make my decisions for me. I am a big boy and if I fry something it will have been mine to fry.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 26 Nov 2009 04:41 PM 
If Gerry chooses to ignore expert technical advice acquired by me from the battery manufacturers over 25 years of dealing with batteries, that is his problem. Not mine. 

Jerry (not Gerry) does choose to ignore your "expert technical advice acquired by me from the battery manufacturers over 25 years of dealing with batteries"

That IS NOT my problem.

That IS my RIGHT.

Others have offered me useful information. I am not aware of any technical advice that you have offered that was within the guidelines of my requested information.

If you cannot get my name right please understand why I would question your ability to comprehend the rest of MY topic.

If there is a lack of communication perhaps it is part of the "problem" that you do not understand why I do not understand the value of your advice. Perhaps you are too quick with the answers to bother with understanding the questions.

MLS is not a closed forum. I have no right to demand that you leave this topic alone but by the same token you have no right to decide for me what is or is not "my problem."

Not only am I paranoid by your description but I will add my own description - I am passively aggressive. I do not seek disagreement but the harder someone pushes their ideas on me the stronger I reject them.

Dale Carnegie once said "if you see Jim Jones through Jim Jones eyes you will sell Jim Jones what Jim Jones buys. That was an incredibly accurate description of salesmanship. You simply do not see Jerry McColgan through Jerry McColgan's eyes and the consequence is that, unless and until you do, you will never sell Jerry McColgan what Jerry McColgan buys. Thats how it works.

Tony = Manufacturer/Seller
Jerry = Customer

Guess which one has the privilege of making ALL of the decisions?

Cheers,

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

OK.  Jerry it is. 
If you carefully read what I wrote regarding how NiMH batteries should be charged, instead of continually attacking me as having some sort of vested interest in what you do with your spare time and spending patterns, you would realise that simply replacing NiCd batteries with NiMh, as advised by Greg, is not on in the circumstances I have outlined. 
Perhaps you would do well to listen to expert advice instead of jumping to conclusions based on your own preconceived biases. 

I am well aware of how most sound systems charge their respective battery packs, and they are not all the same. Provided I know what the brands of the sound systes are you want battery advice on, I can offer you good advice. But, it seems all you want to do is attack me for the views I hold as to what is the best way to power trains outdoors. 
Your loss, not mine.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 26 Nov 2009 05:19 PM 
OK. Jerry it is. 
If you carefully read what I wrote regarding how NiMH batteries should be charged, instead of continually attacking me as having some sort of vested interest in what you do with your spare time and spending patterns, you would realise that simply replacing NiCd batteries with NiMh, as advised by Greg, is not on in the circumstances I have outlined. 
Perhaps you would do well to listen to expert advice instead of jumping to conclusions based on your own preconceived biases. 

I am well aware of how most sound systems charge their respective battery packs, and they are not all the same. Provided I know what the brands of the sound systes are you want battery advice on, I can offer you good advice. But, it seems all you want to do is attack me for the views I hold as to what is the best way to power trains outdoors. 
Your loss, not mine. 
Tony, 

I am not attacking you. I have stated several times that I DO NOT KNOW the manufacturers of every sound system I have. 

My goal in starting this topic was not to get an answer to a specific sound system but rather I was hoping for generic answers that could be used in general terms when working with an unknown sound system. I did not know if such an answer was possible or not.

Your responses were brand specific (not what I had available or in mind).

Greg's responses were battery specific (exactly what I had in mind).

You referred to the circumstances you outlined. I was not asking about the circumstances you outlined and Greg addressed the circumstances I had outlined.

I have never questioned your qualifications or your views or your opinion of what is the best. My comments were simply pointing out that your qualifications, views and opinions were relevant to the situation you outlined but not to mine.

It is like DCC. I have no desire to become a DCC expert or a rechargeable battery expert but I also have no desire for a DCC or battery expert to make any decisions regarding what I may or may not do. 

I am looking for a "Dummies Guide to Rechargeable Batteries" that gives me in simple language a reasonable expectation of what should or can happen if I do something that my personal knowledge is insufficient to decide on. I will then take it upon myself to decide whether or not I am willing to try something that just might or might not happen to be stupid. I am concerned about doing something that could be dangerous and less so about doing something that an expert might consider to be ill advised.

If Greg or anyone had said that if I put a AA NiMH battery in a circuit designed for Ni-Cad batteries that the battery would BLOW UP then I would never do it but instead if they say they would not advise it and overheating might suggest an unsatisfactory condition then I may well go ahead and try it. but pay attention to any heating of the batteries when under charge.

Warnings such as this exist with alkaline batteries. It is universally stated by all alkaline battery manufacturers to never use them in recharging circuits - so I would not do that.

I DID read what you wrote about NiMH batteries. You said "NimH batteries should never be used as simple replacements for NiCd cells where the sound system charges the batteries. Whilst NiCd's can be left on a standard trickle charge without any damage it is definitely [bNOT SO[/b] with NiMH. They must never be left on charge any longer than it takes to fully charge them. In other words, if they are left on a continual trickle charge they will be over charged and internal damage will result in a shortening of their life span. 
NiMh batteries should only ever be charged with peak detection chargers." 

That may well be the correct answer but I would never leave any sound system batteries on a trickle charge (unless I was following the manufacturer's instructions and using the manufacturer's sound system and batteries). 

You said the potential damage will result in a short life span. You DID NOT say that the combination was explosive or dangerous. My interpretation for my purposes is that it would be highly unlikely that I would ever use any such batteries in a sound system that would ever reach full charge much less an overcharge condition and, in the unlikely event that I did so, it would be no big deal for me because I happen to have an excessive quantity of rechargeable AA NiMH batteries that I bought at a salvage store at a very low cost.

The fact is that potential damage to the NiMH batteries is of very little concern to me as long as they are unlikely to explode and injure me or the sound system (Greg's advice addressed this with his suggestion to keep the mah ratings similar).

I do a lot of things on my layouts that I would never recommend or suggest to others. As long as I am comfortable with any potential risks of whatever I am doing I may very well elect to do things that experts would shy away from. The difference is that I give myself credit for recognizing when I am exceeding the risks I am willing to take but understandably you have no insight into what is an acceptable risk vs benefit to me.

Jerry


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Gerry, 
Please pay attention. 
Greg gave you an answer that suited your question but it is not exactly correct. 
Sound systems that charge NiCd batteries do so by continually trickle charging them *when running*. You must not do that with NiMh batteries. 
Therefore you cannot simply replace NiCd batteries charged by a sound system with NiMh batteries because they will be damaged by the continual trickle charge. 
NiMh must only be charged by a peak detection charger if you want them to last any length time. 
If you don't care about value for money and can afford to simply keep replacing batteries as they die, then go ahead. 
BTW. There are recorded instances of NiMh batteries exploding simply because they had been improperly charged. 
I personally have had that happen with a Maha charger that rammed too much juice too fast for too long into 12 x AAA size NiMh cells. They melted and deformed the body shell. 

There are no general rules when it comes to rechargeable batteries. They are chemistry specific and charge specific. 

Therefore, to get an answer to your general questions is going to be impossible if you don't know the brand of the sound systems. 
I have no axe to grind, or agenda to promote, with any particular sort of battery. 
My aim is simply to prevent misinformation being spread to the uninformed. Such as, by your own admission, yourself. 

As to being threatened with a potential customer boycott by, in your words, a "Paranoid Passive Aggressive", I can only feel sorry for you. 
I would rather not have customers who have preconceived ideas. They only cause me grief I can do without. 
I much prefer to deal with customers who are prepared to keep an open mind on Large Scale issues.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rather than get into a pissing match here, I will state that nimh batteries can be trickle charged like nicads, when you define trickle charging as a constant, low current. There are many "definitions" of trickle and "float charging", and I am not talking constant voltage charging (which is VERY tricky for ANY chemistry in my opinion). 

Basically, the only chemistry that cannot take a continuous low current charge (forever) is lithium. 

I would entreat people who believe otherwise to just do some googling on this. I just double checked my knowledge by googling "float charge nickel metal hydride"... and culled out the ones that equated "float charge" with a constant voltage charge... 

I have been learning about rechargeable batteries from experts for about the last 25 years, I understood the chemical properties and physics starting from 1969. So, while I may not be an expert, I'm pretty darn sure on this one, and have just double checked. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, et al.


Far be it from me to dispute your years of experience but perhaps you might also like to read up on NiMH charging here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel...de_battery
Under *Charging* it says, in part:

*.......A NiCd charger should not be used as an automatic substitute for a NiMH charger.[6]*

Scroll down to *Trickle Charging* where you will read:

*Some equipment manufacturers consider that NiMH cells can be safely charged in simple fixed, low-current chargers with or without timers, and that permanent overcharging is permissible with currents up to 0.1C/h. According to the Panasonic NiMH charging manual, extensive **trickle charging** can cause battery deterioration due to overcharging, and it is the least preferred charging method concerning battery performance. If it is used, the trickle charge rate should be limited to between 0.033C/h and 0.05C/h for a maximum of 20 hours to avoid damaging the batteries.[6]*
*For a slow charge, or "trickle charge" process, **Duracell** recommends "a maintenance charge of indefinite duration at 0.0033C/h".[7] Some chargers do this after the charge cycle, to offset the natural self-discharge rate of the battery. To maximize battery life, the preferred charge method of NiMH cells uses low **duty cycle** pulses of high current rather than continuous low current.*

I could go poking around and find the same information from Sanyo if you insist.

My point is, that unless you know for sure what the method and rate of charging is with a particular sound system, then it is best to either replace the battery pack with the same chemistry or do nothing.

Therefore, unless Jerry can inform us what brand the sound systems are so we can determine what the charging procdures are and if chemistry replacement is permissable, then it is not possible to be give accurate reliable information.
Jerry cannot, and seems not to care about the economics of it.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

What you have posted is not inconsistent with what I said Tony, and I did not talk about chargers, but the batteries. 

By the way, I read, but do not use wikipedia as an absolute authority, especially in technical issues. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg. 


You wrote:
*...and I did not talk about chargers, but the batteries. *

Well you did actually talk about charging in the first post on this page: 
*...I will state that nimh batteries can be trickle charged like nicads, when you define trickle charging as a constant, low current. There are many "definitions" of trickle and "float charging", and I am not talking constant voltage charging (which is VERY tricky for ANY chemistry in my opinion). *


I am not quoting Wikipedia as an absolute authority. 
Merely to back up my point that you simply cannot substitute NiCd batteries with NiMH batteries if you don't know what the charging procedure being used by the sound system is. 
Well you can of course, if the possible degredation of the NiMh battery life span is of no concern. 

That is all I have ever said on the subject.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Tony,

I think this topic can be summed up to date by the fact that I was asking what I could do and you contributed NO suggestions on how I might be able to use NiMH batteries that I already own and that have been just sitting unused in anything for over a year.

It was not until Greg offered suggestions about how I might be able to use my already owned NiMH batteries that you then countered with your advice which was not to do anything because I do not have sufficient information for you to give me any advice. Don also offered some much appreciated advice which you also responded to with counter-advice.

This topic had progressed to 32 posts before Greg gave his much appreciated advice and only then did you offer specific advice (post 33) which was to do nothing.

You were not offering advice (that would have come before Greg's post and would have hopefully suggested something I could do). Instead you were offering counter-advice which was telling me not to follow Greg's advice.

I was looking for doors to open to enable me to do something. Greg opened some doors. Rather than opening any doors you attempted to close doors that others had opened for me.

Your comments refer to charging cycles of 20 (continuous) hours or more and to a defective charger that damaged batteries.

I do not see how this in any way should be a valid concern for me when it is highly unlikely that any of my sound systems will be charged more than perhaps a single hour per WEEK via the sound system.

You suggest that I "seem not to care about the economics of it." Actually that is 180 degrees from the truth. The truth is that I have sound systems that do not function for lack of rechargeable batteries. The truth is that I have an abundance of NiMH batteries that I have no reason now to think that they would not work. The truth is that the economics of my situation is that I can probably return these sound systems back to use at absolutely no additional cost to myself. THAT is the only economics that concerns me.

As for your comments: 

"As to being threatened with a potential customer boycott by, in your words, a "Paranoid Passive Aggressive", I can only feel sorry for you.
I would rather not have customers who have preconceived ideas. They only cause me grief I can do without."
[/b]

they make me wonder which of us is the *"Paranoid Passive Aggressive"*

*How is it possible for a non-customer (as in never having been either an existing or a potential customer) to threaten anyone with a one person boycott or perhaps just as important how would such a perceived boycott cause sorrow and grief to someone who has never had a personal or a business relationship with the person who is perceived (imagined) to be the source of such sorrow and grief?*

*"I much prefer to deal with customers who are prepared to keep an open mind on Large Scale issues."* 
*I have never been your customer and you have never had to deal with me. You came here to this (MY) topic by yourself - remember?*

*Further this is not and never has been a Large Scale Issue. I have a very open mind on Large Scale Issues.*

*This IS a personal issue - MY personal issue (remember - MY topic).*

*Here you are absolutely correct. I do have a VERY CLOSED MIND when it comes to advice that I decide does not suit my personal agenda about a personal situation. *

*Eighteen (18) posts ago I said:*

*Can I assume that by your comment "You have still not quoted any brand specific sound systems and unless you do no one is going to be able to help you. 
PERIOD." that if I do NOT quote any brand specific sound systems that you will go away?








*
*One thing that I have always found curious, interesting and frustrating about forums in general and large scale forums specifically is how often someone asks (everyone who reads their topic) for advice or information and some people offer not advice or information but rather instructions and directions - and then they get extremely upset when the recipient of that advice/instructions elects not to follow that information.*

*When such a person then counters with a claim that I do not have an open mind on large scale issues I really, really have to wonder which of us is paranoid and passive agressive? If it is me - that is perfectly OK because it is my money, my layout and my life that this topic is all about and not about someone else's perception of it - that's MY reality and to me that is the ONLY reality that I concern myself with.*

To set the record straight I do not know anything about RCS or Beltrol products and since I do not consider myself even moderately informed about various battery powered products I would NEVER suggest or recommend anything either for or against such products or any manufacturers or dealers for those products. I may on other topics discuss my limited personal experiences with some different RC products but even then I only discuss my observations and I do not recommend one brand over others. I do not have a closed mind about such products I simply lack any significant interest in or curiousity about them.

Cheers,

Jerry


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To clairify a bit: my response was to yours where you quoted" 
".......A NiCd charger should not be used as an automatic substitute for a NiMH charger.[6]" 

We are not talking about getting new chargers, we are talking about new batteries. The statement above is true, but not relevant to the questions Jerry asked. 

Another overall note: 

The charging systems in virtually all sound system I have ever examined are poor, unsophisticated and do not charge the battery in the best possible method. Most are low current trickle charge systems with virtually no safeguards against overcharging. 

So while nicads and nimh have different charge termination conditions in an optimal charging circuit, in what I have experienced, the systems in question will eventually damage their batteries, so I do not believe it's really worth worrying about, i.e. the difference in overall battery life will not be much different. 

It's really the way people run their trains, how often and at what voltage (track power is the subject here) that really determines long term battery life with such unsophisticated charging circuits. 

This is really the fundamental reason I say in this case, you can normally interchange nicad and nimh of similar specifications. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

In the spirit of understanding and friendship (I have no desire to create or contribute to disharmony within the large scale community) I would like to offer an observation which can (in my opinion) be summed up in one word - Engineers. 

I mean absolutely no disrespect in this.

Before I retired I was a factory Senior Account Representative (sales rep) for a major manufacturer of cable management products for up to 35,000 volts to distributors, contractors, utilities and engineers. As such I was in daily contact with distributor salesmen who simply wanted to know how they should sell the products, contractors who wanted to know how their electricians should properly and safely install the products, utilities who wanted to know how my products compared price and feature wise with those of my competition - and engineers who wanted to know every little detail about my products and how they interacted with the electrical systems they had designed.

In effect I had to be multi-lingual because if I talked to an engineer the same way that I talked to an electrician or to an electrician the same way that I talked to an engineer my career would have been very short lived.

It is the nature of engineers such as Tony and Greg to develop an expertise at everything they do but I am not an engineer and I have neither an engineer's mind set nor an engineer's training and certainly not an engineer's knowledge of how to (or desire to) do things the best way. 

When I sold my products to engineers I was thoroughly qualified to discuss all of the functions of my products and I often gave seminars to engineers about my products. The only reason I was qualified and able to do this was because I had highly qualified engineers who had trained me about how my products worked and how I should explain them to an engineer. I did not have a need to know how their system worked - just how my products would work on their system. I would never have suggested working without precise information to an engineer but we shared many laughs about dumb things contractors (and even very smart engineers) did.

It is not uncommon for engineers to become frustrated with me because their values are not my values. When it comes to toy trains we simply do not speak the same language. When it comes to toy trains my values have little to do with engineering and a lot to do with creating or not creating electronic smoke.

Engineers very correctly tend to place a high value on their time, their knowledge and their experience and they tend to consider it a discourtesy when someone like me fails to give them what they perceive to be the proper respect.

My only response to that is that when it comes to playing with (my) toy trains I may give a higher value to information I receive from an engineer but, right or wrong, I take it for granted that all information, advice, assistance, direction or instruction that I receive from each and every source is freely given without incurring any obligation on my part. I ALWAYS appreciate such assistance but I retain the right to evaluate and compare it with all other options and with my personal objectives regarding what I am specifically trying to do at a given time so with no disrespect intended to anyone my eventual choice of action may be totally contrary to the advice that was given to me.

This is not an apology to anyone for anything. It is instead a request that engineers understand and accept the fact that not everyone thinks like an engineer or shares the same values as an engineer.

Please DO NOT take offense when no offense is intended. I fully respect your knowledge and skills but I ask you (all) to accept and respect the fact that quite often something that may not meet your standards may fully meet the lower standards and expectations of someone else.

Jerry


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## sailbode (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not an Engineer, just an ASE certified master technician and probably fall in the same camp as you Jerry. This discussion has been very informative to me although the fiery salvos got a little intense. I have been "messing" with batteries for several years now as I convert my RC airplanes to battery power. I used to scoff at batteries replacing my little nitro/ alcohol engines but with the new brushless motors and Li-po technology, we're seeing planes perform with electric power that glow powered planes could never match.
50 - 100 sound systems! yikes, no wonder you want nothing to do with batteries! Like most off the stuff that owns us, these things require maintenence and I wonder if you'd be better off just replaceing the batteries with good old copper tops once a year? Just a question here....my experience with Nmhi is that they don't hold their charge for very long. For an example my digital camera, Nmhi do great if I'm touring and using the camera a lot each day, but if I put the camera on the shelf and come back 2 weeks later they will be flat. So with that in mind & your limited use....copper tops? How about it Engineers, what say you?
Don


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool Jerry, no offense taken!!!

I gave my opinion and best advice on your #1, although I also believe that with a little more inspection, there might be cases where a similarly sized gel cell could be replaced by nicad or nimh, BUT, again, you will find the cases where you can match the voltage exactly to be rare, so in my opinion, you are pretty stuck with the gel cells being replaced with gel cells.

Now, how about on to the second question you posed a while back?:

"2. if the original battery is unmarked as to mah (but can be assumed to be NiCad) can I reverse engineer the acceptable battery ratings (mah) by measuring the output (charging) voltage of the charging (sound) system?"

Much more difficult, and basically impossible. 

These unsophisticated charging circuits can have different charging rates just because the engineer that developed them had a different philosophy on how the battery usage was going to be.

You might be able to learn more by measuring the voltage applied to the battery, but again, due to unsophisticated circuit design, that would really rarely tell you anything.

My best guess is to try to find out what the battery was from markings on the battery, failing that, take pictures to see if someone recognizes the sound system and knows the battery specs. 

You could trickle charge a nicad at 10ma, or 50, or 100... depending on what the desired recharge time was, the load from the sound system, etc.

I think reverse engineering would be tough.

The only help I can think of is by looking at the physical size of the cells, you can make a reasonable approximation of the mah of the cells, then measure the current the system puts out and see if it falls within a reasonable "float current" according to the specs of your targeted replacement battery.


Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Greg. 
Unless you know exactly what the charging circuit is you should never simply replace the NiCd batteries with NiMh. 
Which is just another way of saying: *".......A NiCd charger should not be used as an automatic substitute for a NiMh charger.[6]" * 

Don. 
Both Sanyo and Panasonic now have hybrid NiMh and Alkaline AA and AA size batteries available that are guaranteed to hold 85% of their charge for 12 months. These were developed specifically to overcome the self discharge problems associated with NiMh batteries used in digital cameras. 
I have been using them successfully as traction batteries for smaller Large Scale locos for 2 years now. Due to the way the cells are made there are current draw limitations on the current they can give. This should be limited to no more than 1 amp,. Otherwise their life span will be drastically shortened. 
Sanyo have branded their cells ENELOOP. I am not sure what the brand name is for Panasonic.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By sailbode on 27 Nov 2009 02:30 PM 
my experience with Nmhi is that they don't hold their charge for very long.





Hi Don,

That is why I now believe that I can safely use the NiMH batteries that I have. Since they quickly lose their charge I think it is reasonable to assume that an hour running time here and there will never overcharge either a Ni-Cad or a NiMH AA or 9 volt battery.

Most likely the batteries will stay somewhere around 25% - 50% charge and even if almost dead a few minutes running time should bring them up enough to keep the sound going at low speeds.

The good systems are not a problem because the LGB systems (both analog and digital) use capacitors rather than batteries. Most LGB sound systems use a conventional 9 volt battery so I use rechargeable batteries with them but the type (Ni-Cad or NiMH is immaterial because I use external chargers and the sound systems do not put out a charging voltage). The same is true of my LGB 4135, 4235, 4367 and similar systems which also have no charging circuit.

The Soundtraxx Sierra and Phoenix use larger gel batteries and the sound systems are worth the cost of buying replacement batteries every few years (with the Sierra systems I have bought a quantity of capacitors to replace the batteries). Even the newer Aristo sound systems are not a problem because the batteries were clearly marked and buying replacements is not a problem.

It is mainly the older unmarked or cheap systems that are my concern. Some of them (CMI as an example) only cost me around $10 - $25 and some came with used locos that I bought over the years.

All in all I am happy with the information I have received.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I am a late comer to this conversation. I can add credentials, but you probably want more back yard experience. In this situation, of low voltage, low current, I think you are OK interchanging NiCad and NiMH. I haven't had any issues on the few times that I did. I have battery backup for standing situations. We're not tallking big volts and amps to drive the train, we're talking small stuff here, and most sound systems are designed to work on a range of voltage. Given that you are not heavy user of your trains, I would not be terribly conserned in your situation of overcharging. 

Biggest annoyance I see, is that when you put a locomotive away in June and run it again in August the battery is dead and will take some time to recharge. Since you run infrequently I would not use high MaH as they will take longer to charge. Even if it gets fully charged it will likely be dead by next use from sitting on the shelf. 

I would get a set or 2 of rechargable AA or 9v try it and then put them in another sound system before buying a 100 or so of these things. 

After you work through some of this.....Do us a favor and post your results. Your Epxerience will help guide others. Just remember that this is free advice, and sometimes you get what you pay for........ 

Good Luck... Tom P


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Tom Parkins on 27 Nov 2009 06:33 PM 
I would get a set or 2 of rechargable AA or 9v try it and then put them in another sound system before buying a 100 or so of these things. 

After you work through some of this.....Do us a favor and post your results. Your Epxerience will help guide others. Just remember that this is free advice, and sometimes you get what you pay for........ 

Good Luck... Tom P 

Hi Tom,

You seem to think the way that I do. In this case I just happen to have a couple of dozen or more Eveready NiMH AA batteries (and Eveready NiMH chargers) that I bought dirt cheap and my original purpose for buying them did not work out so I have no other use for them. They range from 1050 mah to 2500 mah.

When I ask for information like this I realize that I am exceeding manufacturer's guidelines so naturally I proceed at my own risk.

My plan is to try the trains (sound systems) without charging them and if they work to run them but before I put them away to use the external chargers to bring the batteries up to full charge. That way by the time I get around to running them again the batteries should still retain enough charge to run but be low enough so as not to be damaged by the sound system charging circuit.

What started this whole topic was that I have been restoring my first LGB Mogul - a 2018d that was thrown together by the dealer from parts from various different LGB moguls. I had put an off brand sound system in it many years ago and neither the sound system nor the AA batteries have any markings but I really like the sound system.

As is typical for some of my trains it had been so long since I ran it that the batteries had corroded and damaged the plastic battery holder. It is no big deal to replace the battery holder but it got me wondering about whether my NiMH AA batteries would be safe to put into it.

I do a lot of things with my layouts that would give a lot of people (engineer's?) a heart attack and I have a friend who is even more daring with his layout than I am. We do not do it because we wish to tempt fate but because much of what we do simply has not been tested by the manufacturers because it involves mismatching disimilar products from various manufacturers (like I run MTS, DCC and DCS but I isolate them from each other but he just runs them on the same track at the same time - and he gets away with it).

The bottom line is always either we do it because it is the only way we can run the variety of trains we have that came with disimilar operating systems or because we cannot afford to do things the way that we know is the correct way or because the right way would prevent us from doing what we want to do.

That said I avoid posting what I do that is outside the manufacturers recommendations because I would not want to take a chance that someone might hurt themself since some of what I do is only safe because I understand what I am doing.

A careful look at this (an older version of my layout) will show many places where a simple wiring error could lead to significant problems. No engineer would ever have built it or if they did they would have added many electronic protection circuits that I did not.










For this reason and the fact that it may be a year or more before I really know how well the NiMH batteries work out I would suggest that if anyone is interested in following my "experiment" that it might be best to do it via email.

Virtually every siding has a train parked on it which is why battery power would never work for me. As it is all I have to do is to flip a switch or two and energize any train that is parked on any siding and be ready to run instantly.

Just these locos alone would require more work and money to convert to battery power than I would ever consider.










There are 20 sound systems in them as well.










The above would complicate things further as they not only have sound systems but they also have MTS decoders.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, I can understand your desire to not have to change over. When you get all of those sound systems operating at once, make a recording and post it. That's got to be pretty impressive. 

Tom P


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Tom Parkins on 28 Nov 2009 07:03 PM 
Jerry, I can understand your desire to not have to change over. When you get all of those sound systems operating at once, make a recording and post it. That's got to be pretty impressive. 

Tom P 

H Tom,

In addition to the LGB F7's in the picture there are a dozen See-Thru's that I normally run as two F7-ABBBBBBA "Interurbans."

In these videos I have them set up as an F7-ABBBBBBA which amounts to EIGHT sound systems. Best of all there are NO batteries in the bunch.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../F7ST1.wmv

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../F7ST2.wmv

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../F7ST3.wmv

They are some of my favorite "trains" to run. The combined sound from EIGHT sound systems has to be heard to be appreciated. Now that we are getting into the Christmas Season I will be running them more often.

Regards,

Jerry


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