# Cripple Creek & Western Railway



## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

For those of you who read my post "Power for Grades", here are photos of my yard. I will keep adding photos as my railroad progresses. 


Here is the lower end of the railroad, It is 23' from the house to the hedge, 40' house length, 55' from the lower end of the railroad to the beginning of the hill. 











This is where the railroad turns right and runs along the hill, 40' to the garage. 










This is looking up the hill where there will be a 180 degree curve to send the train back to the north and up the hill further, 29' max to the rear. 










And finally looking back toward where the railroad will make a 360 degree turn and head back 










Here is the top looking down:


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

So, the first thing to do is clean everything up and do some preliminary landscaping. If IT EVER QUITS RAINING ON THE WEEKENDS/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/angry.gif I am going to rent a mini excavator to remove all of the saplings from the hillside. Then there is general cleanup from years of the people at the top of the hill picting things over the edge. (Not the current residents, so I get to clean it up). 

While I have it I'm going to excavate for a patio to hold my BBQ grill, and add a small retaining wall at the bottom along the patio. I also plan on doing a bit of grade work for the future Right Of Way, and digging for my upper pond and stream. 

At $75.00 and engine hour, I can do quite a bit of work with this little jewel. 

Right now I'm working on a set of plans. I have a pretty good idea, all my measurements. Now I will just lay it out and I will post it when I'm happy to see what you guys think.


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

You have great area to work with as far as creating a RR. Workwise it will be a lot but well worth it. It will give you a lot of options for your RR. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

Hmm. Nice setting. Let's see what ideas the guys here have for it.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

$75 an hour? $600 a day? or more? Shoot buy one for that price and rent it out yourself! 

Chas


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

Hey Rodney, 
Good to see you posting again and nice you are starting on a RR to run all those big engines on! Jerry


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## Matt Vogt (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice place for a layout (not that there is a bad place) It will indeed be interesting, no matter how you slice it. 
As far as the excavator goes, I agree with Chas if we understand you right. unless you are on a tropical island, I can't imagine you would be unable to find one for half that or less. I suppose it depends on the area. I can rent one for under $200/day in SW Ohio. 
Keep us posted, we'll be waiting! 

Matt


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

Hmm. When we built the pond, $75 an hour included an expert operator. Was it *that* long ago?


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Buy one? I'm talking about renting a Bobcat 430 Mini-Excavator, a 4 year old one sells for $35,000.00, which may be a BIT much for 3 hours worth of work. It would be nice, but I think I'll rent it and save money for trains. 

I'm working on my track plan and hope to have it posted this week so it can be evaluated by the "Group"


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## mewilkinson (Jan 2, 2008)

I had the most fun with a Bobcat Mini-Excavator when I redid our Koi pond last year. I had to rent it for a minimum of 4 hours, but for the amount of back-breaking work it saved me. I would happily rent one again if needed.


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## tbug (Feb 16, 2008)

Glad to see your posts on this build. I'll be working land much like yours, and keeping an eye on this post as what to expect. Thanks for the effort and enjoy!


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Well I laid out a plan I liked today, then examining it with my elevation and hill angle, my horizontal plan doesn't agree with my vertical plan. At least not without a BIG excavator./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif 

So instead of making a 180 degree turn, I will add either a 360 degree return loop, or a wye which will be just large enough to turn a K-27. 

Then a single line will travel up the remainder of the hill to a mine. This gives me the perfect opportunity for using a Shay, pulling the train up the hill, running around it and of having to back it tender first down the hill to the wye where it can be turned to run correctly. 

What do you guys think, I like the idea of the wye for operational purposes, but for continous running the loop would be much better. 

I did find out a very nice feature of the Bobcat I'm going to rent, it is double jointed so the bucket can be laid on its side for digging horizontal to help level the right of way.


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

You mean to use an extra loop at the bottom as a helix to get up to the higher level? Let's see, that'd be 540 degrees. With a 20ft diameter circle, that'd be 94 ft of track, so if you wanted to rise 4ft, it'd be 4% grade. Still pretty steep, but not bad. If you used some of the straight for the rise and fall, you might reduce that to 3% or so, which is pretty reasonable.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

OK, here is my first attempt at a layout plan. Keep in mind this is mostly just the main lines, I may choose to add a small yard and/or a couple of passing sidings. The wye is at the top of the run for rod locomotives, then it would be shays or heislers to the mine. In the photos the wye is where I said i was going to make a 180 degree turn. Let me know what you guys think, ask any questions and critizie away. 










Thanks, 
Chris


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

I see. And you'll drop most of the difference in the loop by the old foundation. What's the diameter of that smaller curve?


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I like it! The radius of the smaller curve will also affect the percentage grade. Somewhere I have a book about railroad standards and if memory serves, having a grade on a curve is paramount to adding 1.5 to 2% on a straight section. It does make a BIG difference. I DO like the plan.


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## tbug (Feb 16, 2008)

Nice plan, but maybe too 'perfect'. Maybe let the straights and curves meander some so it's not so symetrical and perfect looking. I like the plan though.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

My minimum radius is 6', including the tight curve in the wye. Most are 8' and the large one in the loop is 20'. Yes a good part of my elevation change will be made in the loop at the old foundation. I hope to create a 3' (approx) elevation increase here, depending on what grade it will create, then rise another 3' across the hill to the wye. Between the low part of the loop (the bottom of the drawing) and the old foundation there will be a 1' rise in approx. 40'. This is the roaming territory for my Annie. 

This is my general layout, I don't plan on having all of the straight runs shown, especially to the mine.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Had a great, rain free day here and took the chainsaw to the trees on the hill. Have about half of them cut away and began the cleanup work. Now I have a huge pile of brush, so I'm going to find a good economical chipper and make my own mulch. Hopefully I can keep cutting away and get the rest done really soon so I can begin the inital landscaping. 

So how about some more ideas/critism of my plan? Looking for all the great ideas and helpful hints I can get!! 

Thanks, 
Chris


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

6 and 8 ft radius are nice big curves. Remember, in garden trains, we usually talk about the diameter, 12 and 16 ft, so you don't get surprised when you receive your track and it's a lot smaller than you expected.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Progress photos: 

I've had a couple of good days working with the chainsaw, so i thought i'd send you some update photos. 










Looking toward the loop end. 









Looking toward the wye end. 









Looking to where the loop will enter the hill. 









My brush pile has grown a bit, when i'm done this will be put through a chipper and turned into mulch. 









A couple more days of good weather and I should have all of the trees down, and the hedge trimmed up (butchered)! Then I will spray all the stumps with Stump Killer and begin cleaning up the rest of the hill. 

These 1x4s show the approx location of the Right of Way, they are about 32' long, the rise will be approx. 3/4"-1" per foot. Cripple Creek will pass under about where the level is and then turn along the tracks, this should also allow for some cool cribbing and rubble piles as the railroad attempts to keep it's tracks out of the water.


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## VillageRail (Apr 25, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

Wow Chris, this is starting to look like a pretty large layout. You don't have dimensions on the plan, but the pictures along with some of the sections you mention make it look like a lot of track. This is no weekend project.  

Paul


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Just a quick update, not much has been done lately on the CC&W, mainly due to the fact that IT WON'T QUIT RAINING!!!! I've been working on refining my track plan. 

Monday I decided if I cannot work on the layout, i would start working on the CC&W Shops, so my youngest boy and I have been coverting part of the old garage for this purpose. We have most of the destruction done, and half the paint scraped. I'm thinking about making it 8'x12', which doesn't seem like much, but I planned on having all of the large tools (table saw and drill press, etc) in the remaining area, so this 8x12 space would be the 'Clean Room' for assembly work and the likes. I could push it to 12x12, but not quite sure yet. Anyway I will post photos when there is a bit more to see than just a mess./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif


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## VillageRail (Apr 25, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

We've had the same problem with rain. Well above average this spring. And the few nice weekend days have been taken by other obligations. In the meantime I have put together at least ten structures in the evenings. Good thing we don't actually eat at the kitchen table.  

Paul


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## blackburn49 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By up9018 on 05/06/2008 7:27 PM

Progress photos: I've had a couple of good days working with the chainsaw, so i thought i'd send you some update photos. 














 

































Looks like you have your work cut out for you on what appears to be the start of a very ambitious project.


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## Richard Weatherby (Jan 3, 2008)

Working on a hillside is great fun. I submit mine as an example of hill side work. The difference in height is 16 feet from the top track to the bottom of the legs on the bottom trestle. The loop at each end of the three tracks shown are 10 foot diameter. The 10 foot diameter is approximately 32 feet of track with a rise of 10 inches. This is approximately 3 percent grade or a little less. I am concerned about your statement of "3/4 to 1 inch in one foot." This amounts to an 8 percent grade which is impossible for anything but a shay. Even though a shay could do it, slippage may actually prevent it from running except under idea conditions. 










Good luck


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Wow that is a beautiful layout, gives me a couple of new ideas. I have already decided to do what is necessary to reduce grade on the lower end. The upper end to the mine however may be some sort of a challenge, which is what i'm looking for, even if i have to double head shays.


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Cripple Creek & Western Railway*

Chris, 
A couple of comments from an operational perspective for the wye /mine area: I assume the tail tracks of the wye and passing siding near the word “garage” and “town” are relatively short and cannot hold a whole train. If that is the case then a rod engine bringing a cut of cars for the mine would almost have to take the upper track of the passing siding. If the train was longer than the distance from the switch by “town” to the junction of the mine spur, the geared engine would have to be waiting on the lower passing siding. Once the rod engine cutoff, it would move to the tail track by “town” and then back into the lower passing track. The geared engine would then enter the main and couple to the back of the train and shove it beyond the junction with the mine spur. It would then back up to the runaround track near the mine and uncouple the train ahead of the caboose. It would run around the train and then shove the cars into the mine leads. (If the train was not longer than the distance from the “town” switch to the mine spur, the geared engine could wait on the mine spur.) The rod engine would then wait for the cars to be loaded and returned by the geared engine, or the rod engine would return light to its terminal after the geared engine returned its caboose. Operationally, this is not a real likely scenario. 

It would be better if the area around “station/town” could act as a staging yard where the geared engines would pick up empties and drop off loaded cares for pickup by the rod engines (which would also drop off empties for the next iteration). Assuming you have real estate rights here is a thought: 

Configure the yard at “station/town” with at least three double ended tracks with the tail track about where the current tail track is, Call the tracks 1, 2 and 3 from top to bottom. The wye would be reconfigured so the flat base of it would be yard track 1 and the two legs would go south (on the drawing) with the tail track near and parallel to the garage wall. The space on track 1 between the two wye legs should be long enough to hold a train minus the engine. The main from the southwest would connect to the west side of track 1. The mine spur would connect to the west end of track 3. Track 1 between the wye legs and track 2 need to be long enough to hold a train. 

Here is how it would work operationally. From a previous run, there would be a string of loaded cars on track 2 waiting for pick up. The rod engine would arrive on track 1 with a string of empties stopping short of the east leg of the wye switch.. It would cutoff and enter the east leg of the wye. It would exit the wye on the west leg, now being turned for the return trip. It would switch onto the west end of track 2 where the loads are sitting and couple onto them. It would then pull forward and pick up the caboose from the end of the string of empties on track 1. It would then be ready to depart. The empties brought in by the rod engine arte still sitting on track 1. The geared engine now arrives with a string of loads from the mine on track 3 of the yard. It pulls ahead until the train clears the mine spur switch and then backs the train onto the main. Once clear of the west track 2 switch, it pulls forward into track 2 and drops the loaded cars. It exits track 2 at the east switch and runs around on track 3 to the west end. It uncouples the caboose from the inbound loads and shoves it into track 3. It then back outs and couples to the empties sitting on track 1 (still on the west end). It pulls the empties onto the main and then shoves them onto track 3 coupling to the caboose. Once clear of the mine spur switch, it proceeds to the mine. 

This is probably confusing and more than you want and need, so I apologize if that is the case. The only other suggestion I might make is that if space permits, you might consider a switchback to the mine to add some operational interest. 

Mike


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Mike, 

That is a very interesting idea, and something I will look in to as I'm still doing the 'refinements' to my track plan. I haven't reached that point yet, and I'm going to consider working in your idea either in partial or whole. 

Here was my initial thoughts on the layout of this area. This town is mainly a small 'mining town' with a small station, and unloading dock & small livestock pen. All of these would be located along the upper tail track, station first, the the loading dock with the pen on the opposite side of the track. This tail track would be long enough to hold a 3-truck shay, 8 large ore cars, and a 4 wheel caboose, plus about another 36". 

Operation would be as follows. The rod engine, would be followed by a single box, flat or stock car, then a single combine for passenger/parcel-postal service. Then 8 empty ore cars and a caboose. The train would pull onto the lower track of the upper section of the wye. The rod loco would turn on the wye, and run down to the end, couple to it's caboose and shove the box/flat/stock to it's location, uncouple and pull the combine forward to the station and uncouple it. Then it would pull the empties back down and leave them and the caboose on the lower track on the upper leg of the wye. The rod locomotive would pull forward to a water tank on the main, while the combine was being loaded/unloaded. Then the rod locomotive would couple to loaded ore cars on the top track of the upper leg of the wye, shove these cars back to the combine, then pull forward and couple back to it's caboose and then return down the hill. The shay, waiting on the mine track would then pull forward, back it's caboose to the empties, run around the empties and shove the whole train up the tail track, and then up to the mine. The interesting part would be the shay would have to run backwards down from the mine. 

I will post a new track plan as I develop it. 

Thanks for the idea, those are what I need! 
Chris


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