# First large scale build.



## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Ok so a new friend of mine here (I hope I can call him that) suggested that maybe a few pictures would help people get in tune with my project. And I like to share but since I am not very far along I didn't think it appropriate to share yet. 

But rightly so they pointed out that talk is cheap and a picture is worth a thousand words (OK he didn't say that but I think he meant that and rightly so). 

I have started a few threads and to clarify there are two projects going on in them. First is the loco I am actually building, a small Baldwin 2-6-0 like the Utah & Northern. This would be the Coeur d'Alene Railway and Navigation Company No. 3. The second is a future project which is also a Baldwin Mogul but much larger and is the same loco as the EBT #5 and #9 in fact it is the EBT #9 but for me it is the CR&N #4. It was bought new by NP for the CR&N and then sold to EBT. That's the 48"driver project.

So here is what is going on with pictures. The inspiration for this build is the 2001 Masters class and a line drawing of the Utah and Northern David Fletcher sent me. This was Bachmann 4-6-0. I butchered the 4-6-0 and kept only the part of the chassis from the back to just forward of the middle driver. The rear driver was moved back and the very rear of the chassis notched. It was also lowered a 1/4". I used the Masters class to detail the fire box. That's Picture number one. Then I installed the wheels and made a bottom cover out of the chunk of the original Bachmann. I wanted somewhat prototypical side rods so based on suggestions here I used the Bachmann ends and a piece of brass tubing and a styrene square rod to make the side rod. I added hex styrene rod to make bolts. 

On that note, one of my goals is to make as much of this by hand as possible. Mainly cuz I am cheap . 

So the next step was to build the frame and boiler and pilot. I wanted the open frame look of the real deal. that's why I cut of the front of the Bachmann. I made the frame out of square rod. The boiler is 1 1/4 PVC the boiler support is hand fabricated out of Styrene the pilot deck (I have no idea what it is really called) is the Bachmann with styrene added to give it shape. The pilot I believe is LBG but cant remember now. The cylinder and steam chest are hand made from styrene and a piece of 1/2 hard sprinkler pipe. 

Things to change at this point. The boiler is to far forward and the frame is stretched. The boiler is going to stop at the cab front and the interior portion will be attached to the cab wall. so the boiler will be two pieces. Where the boiler is now is where the front wall would be. But after measuring the drawing of David's where I got all my other measurements from I realized my cab is to long. So I will shorten it which will move my boiler back and there by shrink the frame. I also didn't know what to do with the lower frame rails beyond the front axel and it just looks awful. So I am going to cut them right in front of the axel and 45 degree them up to the upper rail. I am also going to run the front rails through the boiler support for added strength and do away with the cross member that doesn't need to be there. I think that will look better and give more strength. 

The boiler is the backbone. I was/am worried that the way I made it will be weak. I am working on stiffening things in a way that "looks" natural. 
well that should bring everyone up to speed. Next is to finish detailing the chassis and build the steam box and cylinder for the opposite side. Once that is done I will tackle the cab. 

I will post often as the build comes along.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I made the frame out of square rod.


 My only comment is that loco frames were made from bar stock, and (almost) never from square steel tubes. (Later motor racing cars hae such frames, not trains!)
Amber's photos should shed some light on the front frame for you. If not. keep asking and looking at real locos.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Pete Thornton said:


> My only comment is that loco frames were made from bar stock, and (almost) never from square steel tubes.


 I actually miss-spoke. I didn't do it out of square stock but rectangular stock. It is thicker proportionally than I am sure was really used but it still is considerably wider than it is thick. I don't have off hand the size of the stock used but it is more "bar like" than it is "tubing like". I went beefy thinking I needed the strength. I am not going to redo it now but on the next go around I don't think I need it to be as thick as what I used. Really the only thing it is doing is holding the first drivers. The boiler is the real heart of it.

Thanks for all your input Pete. I am eagerly waiting to see the front frame pictures. This is going to get disassembled to move the boiler back and I think I am going to take a suggestion from Kevin and wrap the boiler proper with 1/16 thick cork matt and styrene to give it a proper jacket that gives it the "step down" profile with the smoke box. That's another part that is bugging me. My boiler and smoke box are the same diameter and the first band looks like any other band. I don't know the proper terminology for this joint but it doesn't look right as it is now.

Devon


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## peter_m (Aug 10, 2014)

I think it looks realy nice so far, I gonna have to make a hurry as you are a lot further than me yet. I only got a part of the chassis


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Buddy,
I was counting your rivets..... isn't there s'posed to be one ... . thru my nose?
Good presentation. The geezer get's it!  Nice detail on the rods.
Most all frames tapered under the pilot deck, unless the loco was designed for pusher service. There still needs to be enough to support the coupler and to pull/push some cars. Some lines ran their engines one way, no turn table or wye, so dual purpose was the norm. 
Try a section of 1" as an internal splice to mate your boiler sections. Will need the hole through the cab, glued to front half a screw could pass through the top of the interior boiler into the splice 1/2 pipe. Tucked behind the cab front and out of sight.
Happy Rails,
John


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> Hey Buddy,
> I was counting your rivets..... isn't there s'posed to be one ... .John


Actually I did notice that there is typically more rivets at the back of the smoke box compared to the front of the smoke box. Almost looks 2:1. And since I am ripping it apart to jacket it and move it back I may just drill in the extra rivets. and yes I said drilled the rivets. I got onto the idea somewhere (maybe here) to use sewing pins for rivets. They make them in different size heads and they are already domed. That just means a lot of drilling with a pen drill.

OK I followed you on the splice piece in the boiler. But I have ask why do this? What is your thought for tying the boiler together? For one we are talking a very small amount of boiler in the cab on this particular model, like half an inch or so. On David's drawing it barely is visible past the front edge of the window. I am not following what it would accomplish. I could maybe see this on the #4 when I build it because that boiler goes all the way to the back of the cab. 

Devon


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> I got onto the idea somewhere (maybe here) to use sewing pins for rivets. They make them in different size heads and they are already domed.


 I've used them too. If you want something easier to glue, check out Tichy rivets - they come on a plastic sprue. Some of the larger O scale ones work in F scale.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Pete Thornton said:


> I've used them too. If you want something easier to glue, check out Tichy rivets - they come on a plastic sprue. Some of the larger O scale ones work in F scale.


Tichy was my go to HO parts detailing source. HO is so small it is nearly impossible to detail without using detailing parts. The pins work well and as I said I am cheap. I use CA to glue them, so far I haven't had an issue other than gluing myself to everything in sight. I even glued my wedding ring to my finger that wasn't cool.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Update*

So I made some fixes. I shortened the cab base in order to move the boiler back. I also cut about an 1/8 off the boiler. I shortened the frame and moved the whole boiler back maybe 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch. I tapered the lower frame rails up to the uppers. This made the whole thing much more proper and I am happy with it now. 

I put the front of the smokebox on and made a door out of a disk of styrene and a brass thing (I don't know what it is) that I found at the hardware store for a steam and sanding dome project that I ended up scraping. Turns out dimensionally to be perfect both in diameter and in height. The Bachmann number plate fit in the existing hole like it was made for it. Even the shape works well. I am pretty pleased with that.

However I forgot I wanted to add the boiler jacket. I am bugged by this and am thinking on solutions. I really do not want to part everything again and have been thinking on how to do it. But in the end I think it is all coming apart again and getting wrapped in cork and styrene. I have thought about adding styrene at key points wrapping it in heavy paper or cloth and painting on polyester fiberglass resin. I could do this without separating stuff but that maybe more work than separating it and doing it right.

My pilot is to high. I couldn't figure out why because the deck is spot on with David's drawing. Then it dawned on me, the pilot is 3/8 shorter than the drawing. So I will have to lower the pilot. 

I will finish the details like rivets and bolts and finish the other steam chest and cylinder ( I have a start) finish the side rods and cross heads and that type stuff. then it will go to paint.

The drawing is David Fletchers that I am copying (Thanks David for letting me post it), the Pic is of the U&N #11 (the goal post with my lettering), The rest is the story to date.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

d_sinsley said:


> Actually I did notice that there is typically more rivets at the back of the smoke box compared to the front of the smoke box. Almost looks 2:1. And since I am ripping it apart to jacket it and move it back I may just drill in the extra rivets. and yes I said drilled the rivets. I got onto the idea somewhere (maybe here) to use sewing pins for rivets. They make them in different size heads and they are already domed. That just means a lot of drilling with a pen drill.
> 
> OK I followed you on the splice piece in the boiler. But I have ask why do this? What is your thought for tying the boiler together? For one we are talking a very small amount of boiler in the cab on this particular model, like half an inch or so. On David's drawing it barely is visible past the front edge of the window. I am not following what it would accomplish. I could maybe see this on the #4 when I build it because that boiler goes all the way to the back of the cab.
> 
> Devon


"The boiler is the backbone. I was/am worried that the way I made it will be weak. I am working on stiffening things in a way that "looks" natural. "

The Splice was inspired by the above.... tying it into the cab should add strength....
I only make suggestions,
take what works and leave the rest.
Now for a playful nudge ... how can I be expected to remember everything you write, if you can't either?
your friend,
John


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> The Splice was inspired by the above.... tying it into the cab should add strength....
> I only make suggestions,
> take what works and leave the rest.
> Now for a playful nudge ... how can I be expected to remember everything you write, if you can't either?
> ...


Aw I see where your coming from. When I wrote that I was worried about the front of the locomotive not the back. . . but with that said I do like your thinking. I have been contemplating a more positive attachment at the rear also. Your suggestion gives me some food for thought. What you suggest would be a good solution. Tie the boiler to the cab and then tie the cab to the chassis with screws. Yep.
Good suggestion .

Edit:
It wouldn't necessarily even need to be screwed in. Make a socket sort of affair. Make an inner ring in the front boiler section (with the 1" like you suggest) cut a perfectly positioned hole in the cab wall (also like you suggest) and then just slide the cab forward onto it and screw the cab down. That will bind the boiler in place. The screw to hold it would be added insurance and prevent forward/backward movement but would have to be able to get at it while its in the cab. not sure how to do that part.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I think you'll want the screw, over time vibrations will develop and PVC does get brittle with time. I've repaired many a cracked irrigation pipe. 
Glue stoppers inside or long rivet butts to set the depth...

Have fun.
John


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Boiler Jacket added*

Ok so I wasn't pleased with the old boiler being the same diameter as the smoke box. It did not have the "step" that it should have. Thanks to Kevin's (aka East Broad Top) suggestion I wrapped the boiler with 1/16 rubberized cork gasket material found at the local auto parts store. It was then covered with a clear plastic sheet that is .010" thick. This material is less brittle than styrene. It will also be used for the windows in the cab. I had to glue it with CA as my regular plastic cement wouldn't adhere to it.

The original band was left behind the smoke box rivets and all others were removed. After it was wrapped a small band was added to give it the profile I liked. Putty was added to give a contour. I added the rear band but haven't got the two middle bands on yet. 

I hate close up pictures, they show all the sanding and filling that needs to be done. But here they are.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Test that plastic, before you get to far, for paint adherence, if the glue wouldn't, will paint?

John


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

For now...or your next loco build!

I'm of a firm mind that "the frame" forms the back bone of any structure...locos included...

....not the boiler....if'n ya mimic the real thing...you'll have an easier time building your toys..

By all means ....build on...keep taken close up pix..they might be helpful for you also..improve your work style...

Redos are permitted.....learn as ya go....we all have...and still do!!

....nature of the beast!!

Have some Phun with it!!

Dirk


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Instead of the clear plastic wrapper over the cork, you might want to consider "blackened brass"! it looks very nice, and gives a "Russia Iron" effect that doesn't have to be painted..and it looks like real metal, because it is real metal!  I used it on my Ruby and I love how it turned out:










the rest of my Ruby project, with more photos:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/Ruby/RubyAngel.html

I followed Kevins technique for the brass boiler jacket, found here:
https://web.archive.org/web/2005031...m/articles/masterclass/mc2/mc2-03/patina1.asp

(the original link to that article on MLS is dead..I tried to find it inside the archived Masterclass 2002 articles we were recently discussing, but couldnt find it there..the link above is the "internet archive" copy)

I also have more info on Russia Iron, and ways to model it, here:
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/maine-2foot-color/page2.html

Scot 

Scot


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> Test that plastic, before you get to far, for paint adherence, if the glue wouldn't, will paint?
> 
> John


 John,
That's a great point and one I hope your concerns are wrong about. I hadn''t thought of that. I will scuff it up well and prime it. And pray. At this point that would suck. CA glue did work well just not the plastic solvent I used so maybe.



SD90WLMT said:


> For now...or your next loco build!
> 
> I'm of a firm mind that "the frame" forms the back bone of any structure...locos included...
> 
> ...


 Dirk,
I agree 100% about the frame being the backbone. This is a learning process and I wont be doing it the way I did it this time. I am not going to change this one but for the next go I will build a better frame to work from.

I believe that as long as each evolution is better than the previous then we are going at it right.

Devon


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Scottychaos said:


> Instead of the clear plastic wrapper over the cork, you might want to consider "blackened brass"! it looks very nice, and gives a "Russia Iron" effect that doesn't have to be painted..and it looks like real metal, because it is real metal!  I used it on my Ruby and I love how it turned out:
> 
> Scot
> 
> Scot


Scot,
Kevin did suggest a brass or styrene jacket. As the original was a painted black jacket, not Russian or planished. So I went plastic. I just didn't use styrene because I thought I had a good idea at the time. The clear stuff was dirt cheap and it gave me the material I would need for my windows. I just hope I don't live to regret that one.

My next loco build will have a planished jacket and I might use the brass idea.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Update*

Ok well paint test went great. Rustoleum black primer adhered to a test piece perfectly. Both rough and left smooth. could bend it, rub it, even scrape it and it stuck.

I have redesigned how I am doing the rear boiler section. Instead of attaching it to the cab it will be part of the chassis. I did this to allow me to make the floor prototypically correct and will allow me to detail the back head to look right. The prototype had the sunken floor and the fire box door is in that lower floor. In order to do this I put a piece of brass pipe that fit perfectly and then added an inch of new pipe. I left a notch for the cab to fit over. and I pieced in the chassis to have the new floor. I will add another layer to the back head so I can round over the edge. I will also add a layer of styrene to the upper floor area. 

Now I did screw up though. I forgot to fill the boiler with weight material. So I will have to cut out a hole to fill it before adding the next layer. I also added a piece of hex rod on ether side of the cab support beam.


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

*First Large Scale Build*

I'm liking the looks of your project. You are on the right track!!

Mike

Mocrownsteam
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## Amber (Jul 29, 2011)

Don't forget to leave room for the motor assembly inside the boiler. You'll need a cutout for that also.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Its in there*



Amber said:


> Don't forget to leave room for the motor assembly inside the boiler. You'll need a cutout for that also.


Thanks Amber,
The motor is in there. There is a notch in the boiler up to about the middle driver. The backhead is sitting about a 1/16 of an inch back from the gearbox frame. The backhead is farther back than what is prototypical simply because I had to make room for the motor. It is about 1/4 farther back than prototypical. 1/4" inch might as well be a mile but what to do.


Actually I forgot about the notch until you said something. that means I don't have to cut a hole in the backhead to fill the boiler with lead. yea.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*2# of lead*

So had to figure out how to get some weight into this beast and had a few ideas. Then today I had an idea. I used the thinner walled PVC for the boiler. I happen to have a piece of the heavier wall stuff too. So I thought why not pour a lead slug in the thicker walled one then cut off the PVC and then side the slug into the loco. I also wanted a whole through it for wire up to the headlight. So I stuck a big nail in the center of the pipe. I weighed out 2# of lead and began pouring. I got the lead just hot enough to pour and let fly. 

The result was a nice 2# slug of lead with a hole in the enter. It took a bit to pound the nail out. If I were to do it again I would pour it around some copper tube and leave it in there. 

Then I slide it in the boiler and used gorilla glue to glue it in place since gorilla glue expands it sout form around it and hold it nicely.

I did have to pop the backhead off

Now I didn't plan out the wire to well. So I drilled a hole where the stack will go and pulled the wire up there. Eventually I will have to figure out how to do it. But for now its there.

Well that's where it is now.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

OK so I need to paint what I have so far before I get too involved with detailing and make it impossible to reach places. The way I made this did not allow me to take it apart. Something I will remedy the next go around. So I need to get some paint on places that will be hard to reach.

As an HO indoor guy I strictly used acrylic paint. However with outdoor use I am concerned that being water based will give me problems. I don't plan to leave it in the weather but things happen and outdoors is still not indoors. Should I switch to enamel or am I fine with acrylic. The only reason I like acrylic is the clean up in my airbrush so the problem really is minor.

What is the favorite "black" for an old locomotive. I am struggling between the "new" look or a good old weathered look. Most likely it will be weathered. Oh an it wont be planished the prototype was painted black throughout.

Also when it comes to weathering I was wondering about an undercoat of say a deep red oxide under the black then as sharp edges are weathered the "rust" would show through. . . yes? no? what you think. I ave never weathered a steamer just modern diesels so I wouldn't mind some tips.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Devon,

My live steam locos, which regularly get wet, are weathered wih cheap acrylic paints from Micheals Crafts. They have lots of blacks - 'lamp black' is really dark and matt, and 'licorice' is also good. Once the paint dries it doesn't seem affected by rain or sun - or heat: the visible boiler is painted on one of my engines!


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Pete Thornton said:


> Devon,
> 
> My live steam locos, which regularly get wet, are weathered wih cheap acrylic paints from Micheals Crafts. They have lots of blacks - 'lamp black' is really dark and matt, and 'licorice' is also good. Once the paint dries it doesn't seem affected by rain or sun - or heat: the visible boiler is painted on one of my engines!


Acrylic it is then. I already have Steam Loco black and DRG Red so I am in business. If it can handle live steam and weather it can handle what I give it.


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## backyardRR (Aug 14, 2012)

I can concur about the use of the cheap acrylic paints from Michaels Craft stores. I have used them on outdoor structures such as arch bridges, tunnel portals and retaining walls that are exposed to the elements 24/7/365. The paint has held up extremely well. My arch bridge has been in place for about a year and a half and was even buried in snow for several weeks last winter. The paint looks as good as new.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*coming along*

Ok here is an update. So I have painted what I have so far. I painted it black primer then a coat of DRG Red then steam loco black. Hoping that when I weather it I can lightly sand it on the hard edges the red will show through and give some rust highlights. 

Next I went to work on the headlight. The thing is huge but it is prototypically correct based on my drawing and photos. So I am making it from scratch. I wanted a working light but I wanted to hide the wires. So With suggestions here I came up with a base where I used brass for the brackets and soldered wire to the inside that went up to the light and then at the base that went through hole in the boiler. So basically the sides are the wires. I think it worked out ok. Here are the pics.

It looks pretty good mocked up. The base of the stack is a piece of PEX pipe shaped with a file.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice! looking good!









Scot


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Cab interior*

OK so as I am finishing up with the Chassis details I am moving my thoughts toward the cab and especially the cab interior. Now thanks to David Fletcher's work here I have a great idea about the backhead details and plumbing. Also he said the floor is "sunken" between the the drive wheels and leads up to the firebox door. What I am wondering is there anything else in the cab? I assume they sit on the ledge under the window but did they have seats?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

From a different little 2-6-0


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Totalwrecker said:


> From a different little 2-6-0


John I like the little "tool" boxes on either side to the back on either side. I assume that's what they are. they must also be the seats?


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Steam and Sand Dome*

Ok so made the Steam and Sand domes today. I used 1" PVC parts for the Steam dome and 3/4" PVC parts for the sad dome. Each one used 2 PVC plugs, 2 PVC couplings, and a short length of pipe.
I had to trim almost all of the piece off of the plug that is inserted into the coupling. Then glued it into the coupling. Cut the plug/coupling to the proper length plus a bit extra for the same length as the top of the dome. The pipe is cut to 1/2" longer than the barrel length of the dome. then that is glued 1/4" into top section and 1/4" into second coupling. Then the 2nd plug is glued into the coupling. That made up the blank. Now I chucked the steam dome into my lathe set up on my shop smith I have a dead center and had trouble with the end melting. I muddled through and had to finish by had with a file. But the principle worked great. A live center would solve the problem. For the sanding dome I ran a bolt through the bottom plug and chucked it into my drill chuck on my shop smith and used it like a lathe chuck with out using the tail stock. This did not work well with chisels but I was able to rough it out with chisels and finish with file and sand paper. All in all both methods worked but the lathe set up is better and would work great with a good live center in the tail stock with a ball bearing so that it wont heat up. 

I added the little bead on top of the sanding dome and made the places where the pipes will connect. I added a top to the steam dome made from PEX and some half round styrene and filled with putty. 

I am pretty pleased.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That's coming along quite nicely! 

Later,

K


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

d_sinsley said:


> John I like the little "tool" boxes on either side to the back on either side. I assume that's what they are. they must also be the seats?



I'm thinking seats first and lockers second. They can put their grips in and lock the engineer's seat when they go to beans, general items like flags and fusees under the fireman's. In the winter the water jug comes in and out on the tender in summer....I'm guessin'
John


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

East Broad Top said:


> That's coming along quite nicely!
> 
> Later,
> 
> K


Not sure what was in the back of the real thing, But CR&N #3 is going to have wood seats/lockers. That some nice interior detail.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*It's looking like a loco*

Starting to look like a locomotive. In this picture most everything I had built to date is installed and most of it painted black. I glued on the domes, the smoke stack base, headlight base, the other cylinder and steam chest, added the cross head and support bar, the side rods are done, add the nut thing that attaches the pilot truck, the pilot supports are on, the bell is on. Not in the picture but done are the oil lines to the steam chest, and the nuts on the pilot support brackets.

I had a little snafu when I went to install the cross heads. they hit the front wheel crank. I used the picture for cylinder placement but ended up being to narrow for the bachmann wheels. So I had to separate them and move them out about a 1/8 to 1/4 inch each. All n all the whole thing is coming together nicely. Still need equalizing springs and bar for the second and third diver, I didn't like the first ones the new ones are much better but not installed yet. The first drivers also need springs. Then I will tackle the pilot truck. After that I will have to take on the cab before all the controls and pluming an be located.

Still a long way to go.
Interesting how the photo came out. The stack and light do not actually lean forward like that. they are straight promise.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

d_sinsley said:


> Not sure what was in the back of the real thing, But CR&N #3 is going to have wood seats/lockers. That some nice interior detail.


As I like to say when I take such guesses, "prove me wrong, and I'll buy you a beer!" That's part of the fun of modeling obscure railroads. No photos means you get to borrow inspiration from similar examples. History will likely never reveal whether you're right or wrong. I know folks who never get around to building models of this or that because they're constantly looking for more and more information. At some point, you've just gotta go with what you know and fill in the gaps as best you can.

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

East Broad Top said:


> As I like to say when I take such guesses, "prove me wrong, and I'll buy you a beer!" That's part of the fun of modeling obscure railroads. No photos means you get to borrow inspiration from similar examples. History will likely never reveal whether you're right or wrong. I know folks who never get around to building models of this or that because they're constantly looking for more and more information. At some point, you've just gotta go with what you know and fill in the gaps as best you can.
> 
> Later,
> 
> K


Kevin,
My thoughts exactly. At the end of the day this is my railroad and if I take a bit of artistic lisc. to build it then I am fine with it. As long as it it plausible and does not distract from the information I do have then it isn't hurting anyone. 

There is one photo that we know of of the #3 and it is a horrible picture. In fact it took some real manipulation of the photo to even get a 75% certainty that it is the #3. So until someone digs up another photo as far as I am concerned this is what it looked like. . .


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Here is to date. Painted everything black. Side rods have the "polished metal" ends. Everything is glued in except the stack and the light. More than likely I will use clear silicone to adhere them to make them easier to remove in need be. The wiring connections for the headlight will be in the stack so will need to be easy to get to. And the head light will need access to the bulb. I can't screw it to the base because of the way I made it but I think silicone will hold it down and allow separation if need be.

I installed the new equalization springs and bar between the second and third drivers and they look much better than the previous ones. I have made the leaf springs for the 1st drivers but haven't installed them. Next on the list is to install the springs and build the front truck. Then the cab. After the cab then plumbing and the reversing linkage(I dont know what it is called) connecting the Johnson bar to the steam chests. Part of the cab features will be a custom figure of the engineer. He will go in before the cab roof goes on. I am going to use the figure class instructions to make him. After all that is done then the tender.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*An update.*

Here is a few tidbits. I made the front leaf springs for the first drivers. I will add some small channel to them also. Sorry for the blurry pic.

I also built the fire box door. Not my best work and is missing the ring that attaches it to the fire box but it was a comprise to get the size door I wanted. 

I also started the tender by chopping up the Bachmann 10 wheeler tender to get the rough tank. It is shortened by about 3"and narrowed by 7/8". The side boards were also cut off. I am making an entirely new frame for it and taller wood side boards.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Some more additions. I did not like the Bachmann plastic pins used to attache the side rods. The hole in the crank took a #6 tap nicely. I threaded them and used a 1/2" cap screw and a nylon washer. More solid and I like the looks alot better, more industrial looking. Should they be painted black or silver.

Then the pilot truck. Not sure if I like the looks of it but it works just fine. I will add leaf springs and paint it black that might make me feel better about them. Also wonder about removing the post that goes up to the pilot. Does it need to be there?

The last picture shows the under carriage. Some of the work done there includes the rear cover made from a hunk of the original Bachmann bottom cover, and the little front cover I made. You get a good view of the pilot truck and the frame. 

Anyway this is it so far.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Devon,

I'd be tempted to pivot the pilot truck off of the screws on the first driver as opposed to under the steam chest. The longer swing arm keeps the wheels of the pilot truck more in line with the rails as they go around curves, and cuts down on derailments.

What do you have in the way of downward pressure on the pilot truck?

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

East Broad Top said:


> Devon,
> 
> I'd be tempted to pivot the pilot truck off of the screws on the first driver as opposed to under the steam chest. The longer swing arm keeps the wheels of the pilot truck more in line with the rails as they go around curves, and cuts down on derailments.
> 
> ...


Kevin,
That's a good suggestion. I was wondering if the pivot would be to short. I will see what I can do there. As for down pressure I have none at the current time. Though I figured I could fill the pilot truck with some lead. I am not heart broken over redoing the truck. I wasn't to thrilled with it Have any suggestions on a way to make it look at least a little like it is supposed to be there. I mean there is no way to make it prototypical but can I make it look like it should be? One thing I thought about was making it out of Ibeam or channel with some cross pieces. I don't know I haven't see a picture of one I like.

Devon


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Front pilot trucks are the bane of my existence. Almost all of my locos have them, and with double reverse loops with spring switches, they've got to be able to push the points over on their own without derailing. So I've spent a good deal of time fiddling with mine to get them to work properly for my railroad. 

I've found that you need some kind of spring to provide the downward force necessary. I like Bachmann's "plunger" system. If you haven't seen one of Bachmann's locos, the front pilot has a brass spring-loaded plunger located along the arm of the front truck. This plunger presses against a flat plate on the bottom of the pilot deck. This system works well because you can stretch the spring to give your pilot a little more pressure if you need to, and--if necessary--add a shim to the underside of the plate against which the plunger presses. 

Another option would be to use the arm itself as a spring. This requires something of a rigid mount for the pilot truck, so that it can rotate side to side on the curves, but not move up and down at the point where it's mounted. (Or, at least not move up.) The idea is that the arm of the pilot truck itself act as a leaf spring of sorts, so that it flexes up when the loco is on the track, providing sufficient downward pressure. 

I have found that simple weights on the pilot truck do not provide enough force to push open a set of switch points, no matter how lightly sprung they are. (Often even if the points are free-floating.) You could probably add more weight, but then you've got such a mass on top of the wheel that it becomes unsightly, and--especially on a small loco such as the one you're building--virtually impossible to engineer. 

I just thought of another option, but it's one of those "picture is worth 1000 words" things, and I want to experiment to see if it will work. Fortunately, I've still got one 2-8-0 with a front pilot that's giving me fits (it's just got a simple weight), so I'll get back to you on that...

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Kevin,
Could you send a photo of the plunger system your talking about. The only one I have looked at is the 4-6-0 and honesty didn't pay to much attention. I am thinking with a spring/plunder it could ride on the steam chest area where I currently have it pivoting, when I move the pivot back. Is the spring mounted to the truck and then just pushes against the pilot deck when its on the track.I assume it is not physically attached to anything other than the pilot.

I need a picture of how the plunger is assembled. 

I would also like to see your other idea.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Pilot #2*

Ok so here is what I came up with for Pilot #2. I moved the pivot point back to just in front of the 1st driver. Then where the old mount was I put a spring by running a cap screw up through the bottom through the spring and then used a fender washer and a nylon lock nut. The bolt free floats so when the spring is compressed in pushes down through the mounting hole. The nut being rounded on top slides nice along the bottom of the steam chest. I will put a strip of brass on the bottom of the steam chest for better wear. I think it works great. It has quite a bit of down pressure but moves freely also. 

The only problem is that I made it too short again think. I believe at this point it is aesthetic and not operational. I will have to see how it runs on the track. The wheels look like they are just a bit to far back. But I do believe this is the ticket.

Thanks Kevin


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Nice! That is--in operation--what Bachmann does on their pilots. I like how you improvised yours; I may end up doing that on my 2-8-0 if my other idea (which I have yet to toy with) doesn't pan out. 

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

East Broad Top said:


> Nice! That is--in operation--what Bachmann does on their pilots. I like how you improvised yours; I may end up doing that on my 2-8-0 if my other idea (which I have yet to toy with) doesn't pan out.
> 
> Later,
> 
> K


Now you taking an idea from me is about the best compliment I think I could ask for. 

If you do decide to go this route I will elaborate a little. For the pivot I found a Nylon sleeve/busing 1" long that was tapped for a #6 screw. I think but am not sure that it had a 5/16" OD. Then in order for the pilot to clear the frame cross piece I glued that into another sleeve/bushing 1" long that had an ID the same size as the threaded sleeves OD. That gave a nice broad surface for the pivot point. I also flattened one side of it for a better glue surface. I then glued it to my cross pieces and also the bottom of the boiler to give as many points of contact as I could. 

Then on the truck I used a short piece of sleeve that accepted the #6 screw with a little slop so it would pivot freely. I screwed the pilot to the mount with a #6 1" long cap screw. I made it long so it would not back out as easily. More friction. 

At the spring I used what was left of my old mounting post (a nylon sleeve which accepted the #6 machine screw I was using with plenty of movement basically the same size as I used for the pivot) I cut it off so it stuck up about 1/4 of an inch to hold the spring. I bought a spring that was extra long and whittled it down until its length gave me the tension I wanted. I used a nylon lock nut and fender washer on top of the spring. The nut rides on the bottom of the steam chest. When weight is applied to the truck it is able to push the cap screw through the mounting hole on the pilot. It all works very nice.

The truck itself is made from .040 styrene sheet and some various rectangular styrene bar stock. I used the old truck I made and just extended it with more bar stock. I even think it looks more pleasing to the eye. Painted black It will look fine.

Now like I said its too short still and puts the front wheels a little behind the cylinders. I want it about evenly centered between the cylinders and the pilot. I have figured out how to do that by cutting it cross ways just behind the wheels and adding some styrene bar stock as a spacer then gluing it back together and then drilling the new spacer and the old part of the truck and pinning it with brass rod for strength. Not only will it increase my pivot length put will put the wheels where I want them.

Devon


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Here are some close ups of the pilot truck. Sorry for the blurry pic. But it will show what I did. I added some homemade springs.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Here are some close ups of the pilot truck.


 Devon,
I wouldn't put too much more effort into tuning this - it's the kind of detail that is easier to fix when you have a working loco.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Pete Thornton said:


> Devon,
> I wouldn't put too much more effort into tuning this - it's the kind of detail that is easier to fix when you have a working loco.


I am done with the front truck for now. Like you said its all theory at this point until it runs and I can see what needs to be done. Right now I think I have a solid start and will and have moved on to other things.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*More got done*

So moving on from the truck I added the lens, reflector, and 5mm LED in the headlight. The reflector is out of a mini mag light and the lens is a piece of that plastic stuff everything come in these days.

I also added supports from the bottom of the pilot up to the pilot deck. That picture also shows off the homemade leaf springs. 

Finally the pop off safety valves and a whistle build like the Masters Class.

A little putty around the domes and a fresh coat of primer.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Working on the details. I really like the foil tape on the roof. Thanks Kevin for the suggestion. The details are laborious and time consuming but really make it come alive.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

d_sinsley said:


> Tichy was my go to HO parts detailing source. HO is so small it is nearly impossible to detail without using detailing parts. The pins work well and as I said I am cheap. I use CA to glue them, so far I haven't had an issue other than gluing myself to everything in sight. I even glued my wedding ring to my finger that wasn't cool.


You can dissolve CA with fingernail polish remover. 

I won't tell you how I know that... 

Robert


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*pluming and crew*

Here is the plumbing and Crew. Thanks to the figures class. The fireman isnt so good but I like the engineer.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

"...I even glued my wedding ring to my finger..."

You mean your wife didn't do that immediately after the reception?

Love the details inside. I'll have to save that drawing of the Eames controls. I printed one out at one point, but long-since forgot where I put it. With the EBT's love affair with Eames locomotive brakes, that's a handy thing to have. 

Later,

K


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## peter_m (Aug 10, 2014)

The plumbing out and inside looks realy nice. And how do you make thise figures? I still have to find a way to make figures for my loc but I can't find good models and I have no experience drawing them.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

East Broad Top said:


> "...I even glued my wedding ring to my finger..."
> 
> You mean your wife didn't do that immediately after the reception?
> 
> ...


Hey Kevin no need to go looking too far. Check out the Mason Bogie master class that's where I Fletch sent me for it. He has all the necessary drawings for an eames system. 

For mine I used the same basic principles that he used in the mogul plumbing section to make all the plumbing and especially the brake injector.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

peter_m said:


> The plumbing out and inside looks realy nice. And how do you make thise figures? I still have to find a way to make figures for my loc but I can't find good models and I have no experience drawing them.


There is an awesome tutorial in the masters class section on building figures but the link seems down. I will send it to you. But basically they are sculpted from polymer clay. Its a fun little task while your watching TV. But it is going to take some practice.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

OK so I have done a better job of keeping this updated over yonder on that other site than I have here. But it is along way toward done. The locomotive and tender are basically done. I have to spray over the whole thing with steam loco black, then apply decals, glaze the windows and do the weathering. I have to build the trucks, the bachmann ones are temporary and I cant make the attachment point on the loco until I know height of the tender and wont know that until the trucks are done.

Then the expensive part starts. Battery, RC board, sound and speaker.


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## peter_m (Aug 10, 2014)

Devon, I think it came out very nice. It's funny to see that we both started with about the same idea but built 2 very different locomotives. You can defenitely be proud of your first build!


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Yeah it is funny to see the different ways they came out. Hows your coming?


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## peter_m (Aug 10, 2014)

It needs a bit of plumbing and the tender takes some detailing. it won't be to long before I can post some photo's


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

That turned out great! Can't wait to see her with decals and some light weathering.

Later,

K


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Mate excellent work, top effort.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

*Weathering with windows in or out*



East Broad Top said:


> That turned out great! Can't wait to see her with decals and some light weathering.
> 
> Later,
> 
> K


I have built this so the windows can be put in at the last moment. Should I weather with the glazing in or out. I realize that in real life the windows get dirty but I don't want to obscure the view of the interior to much.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Scott said:


> Mate excellent work, top effort.


Thanks Scott,

It has been a fun first large scale build. Far different than HO diesels I was doing.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Depends on how you weather the loco. I use powders and acrylic washes, so I put the glazing in beforehand, as it can easily be "cleaned" with a Q-tip. 










If you're going to be using sprays like Dull-Coat, then I'd leave the glazing out until the weathering is sealed, then put the glazing in, lest you fog the glazing. 

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

I was just starting to get into weathering in HO. As a kid I had no interest. The in N I just ran them as they came out the box. When I got back into HO i started to learn to weather. The first thing i did was spray a very dilute acrylic grime that I made with black, white, and reds. Give it a dingy look. Then I went after it with all sorts of chalks, oil paints, washes, etc.

So with that in mind I think I will spray my grime then put the windows in and hit it with the fine details. I am not going for the abused and neglected look. I am shooting for clean and well cared for but used look. With that said the lower surfaces will be grungy with grease where there should be. 

one thing I am wondering is what effect the wood smoke would have had. I am thinking the upper surfaces shoot be sooty fanning out in a cone from the stack back. Accomplish this with chalk powder or graphite?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Chalks are going to be your best option, though I have yet to find a chalk that is as black as soot--even black chalk. In the photo above, I used Bragdon's "soot" to weather the loco shown above, and you can see it's actually a grimy dark grey when contrasted to the black on the cab. Other brands of "soot" are equally grey, so I haven't tried them. 

You may try playing with artists' charcoal sticks. I don't know if they'd need some sort of a fixative, though. Perhaps if you were to wash the loco with an acrylic wash, then sprinkle the charcoal dust over the loco while the acrylic wash is still wet, there might be sufficient binder just from doing that. I use a similar technique when laying down coal dust for cinders; I paint the area first with a flat black acrylic paint, then I sprinkle the coal dust. The dust sticks to the paint, and when the paint dries, the dust stays in place. You may also try using PanPastels. That's a medium I'm just starting to play with. 

BTW, if you want a really true "black" paint, try a black gouache paint from an art supply house. A friend of mine gave me some to play with, and it's about three shades of black darker than any of the cheap "Folk-Art" or similar brands of "black." It's going to be a lot more expensive, but I've just begun to play with it for "soot" effects, and I really like it. 

For the dirt and grime along the wheels, I use a mixture of washes and chalks. 










I've found that when using dilute brown paint for washes for a dirty/rusty kind of finish, the Folk-Art acrylics aren't the best to use. At least with the browns I've got here, the colors tend to wash out as things dry. It's brown-ish, but sometimes it's not quite as brown as I would like. I've played around with using brown gouache as a base for my washes, but that stuff is so pigmented that I haven't figured out how to cut it enough to get just a thin wash out of it. I'm thinking a mixture of the two might be the way to go--the Folk-Art for the general binder, then the gouache for the stronger pigment. We'll see. I've got an alcohol-based brown wash I got from the hobby shop that I use, also, but odd things happen when I use that at the same time as the water-based acrylic washes, so I tend to use that only when I specifically want a brownish wash. (Trucks, etc.) Locomotives are a mix of oily grime, dust, soot, and rust. 

The loco above was weathered with washes first to get the general hues (brown/black around the drivers, lighter grey around the ashpan and firebox), then followed up with copious amounts of chalks of various colors. 

Also, on the siderods, I painted the stock polished metal Bachmann siderods with a matte finish, then weathered them with washes and powders. Yours are already painted so that's a moot point.

Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

A lot to take in there but I just have to go at it and see what I come up with. At this point I don't even remember what I have in my bag of tricks. I know good weathering can be one of the most difficult and most subjective of tasks. Gather a hundred people together and you will get a hundred opinions on what it should look like. I amhoping to get the loco painted all one color of steam power black tonight. I used two different cans of flat black primer and they are not the same. So need to get it to one base color then start the weathering.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about everything not being the same shade of black, unless it's something where you specifically need two things to be the same shade (like the cab and the tender or the drivers and the pilot wheels). I often use different finishes and tones of black on my models. 










Typically the underframes and tender trucks will be flat black, as that gives the best tooth for powders to grab hold of. Cabs, boilers (if they're black), domes, cylinders, cowcatcher will usually be satin or gloss black. I prefer satin, but I'll use gloss as well (as shown above). The premise there is that the prototype would have been painted with a glossy black, so why not the model? 

Once you apply the weathering--depending on how heavy you do it--you can run the gamut from blending everything together so it looks the same grimy, dull finish as seen here:










or if you go a little lighter on the weathering, you can get some cool variation between the gloss undertones of the boiler and cab vs. the dull finish of the dry powders etc.:



















Later,

K


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Kevin, I am really glad you responded to this quickly. Because it will make a difference and I can see exactly what your saying. Even though it says it is a flat black primer the stuff I am using now is a little more glossy than the other stuff I used. I think this would look better on the painted black metal surfaces. The cab is a wood cab and would like it to be a little less glossy. Then the under carriage I want more dingy grey. I didn't spray the loco last night and I am glad I didn't.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

So decals from Stan Cedarleaf came in. I am super happy love the color. not white not yellow but a yellow orange and i just like it.


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## Scott (Jan 29, 2008)

Boy is she a little beauty.  Love the end result. It's very satisfying to see a project reach the end stage.


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## d_sinsley (Mar 29, 2011)

Scott said:


> Boy is she a little beauty.  Love the end result. It's very satisfying to see a project reach the end stage.


Not quite done. It needs to have some touch up work then weathered and then battery, motor control, and sound card. But the outside is very close.


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