# Ladder system for supporting track



## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

I've been reading the Forums about track support systems, usually after I look at all the pictures. I understand floating track on ballast but there are numerous references to "ladders", often made of PVC, being used for support. Several posts of members projects show photos of these ladders but I haven't found any place that describes how to build one. The idea of building the support system THEN pouring dirt around it sounds better than digging up the near-rock hard dirt and rock that make up my backyard. All pointers are greatly appreciated.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

The Principal is simple; attach the spacer blocks to one side, bend to match your curve and screw/nail the other side to each block and the curve will be held. Same for straight aways. You want your 'sides' to support the rails, I'd support the outside edge of the rails to allow for expansion. The blocks are the same and hold the sides at the right seperation. Stagger the sides to alternate the mating of ends. 
Many use PVC pipe the width of the blocks to support the structure, insert between the sides, pound into the ground and attach when the ladder is at the right height and cut off extra pipe. 
This is a simplified explanation, but trial and error will teach you quickly. 

Happy Rails 
John


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is what I do for Concrete Road bed. I am not trying to convert you to concrete but the basic principal is the same when building Ladder road bed. 


The sides are held in place by the Spacers in the middle. 

The spacing between the steel sides is about 3.5 inches. The same width as measured across the ties outside to outside.

The spacers are minus the thickness of the material used for the sides. So if the thickness of the outside material is .25 The width of the spacer is 3 inches.

The distance between the spacers is usually a uniform number 


Now if your are going to raise your ladder road bed on stakes then the spacers are attached to the stakes. 

JJ


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## Ironton (Jan 2, 2008)

The original ladder roadbed came from an idea by Paul Race. You can find his way of doing it here; http://personalweb.donet.com/~paulrace/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm 

Since then there have been various people who used Paul's ideas as a starting point and constructed similar roadbed using other, sometimes cheaper, materials they can find at their local big box supply store. There are many different things that can be used. Just do a search on this forum for ladder roadbed to give you some ideas. 

Hope this helps.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I did mine a little backwards with a little bit of difficulty by setting up a work area on top of my utility trailer and forming the ladder to match the sectional track I used. Sadly this was only partially successful. I made it work once I staked it down but it was not pretty. Of course once it was ballasted it covered up all my imperfections. Until the ballast settled in. Re-ballasting will commence in the spring. As stated however you bend one side of the ladder with spacer blocks attached to match your desired curve and then screw the other side to it. This "sets" the curve and while it will vary some depending on your chosen materials, it stays pretty well. I chose to use the PVC trim board available at Home Depot near me. Less work than ripping the trex stuff. My thread here: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/9/aft/121259/Default.aspx 
IT is by no means the ONLY way to do it. 

Chas


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I owuld be very cautious about the ladder system. I know 5 customers which have all ripped it out again.

For one if you use this as a rasied roadbed and you live in a frost zone you will experience constant shifting of the upright post between winter and summer ultimately leading to wobbleing track. This could only be prevented if you put these uprights and secure them below the frost line. An impractical excercise.

I suspect that laying the ladder system on the ground, I also expect difficuly in keeping it sidewise level. And since you a digging a trench (as seen in the photo) why not go the extra step and dig a little deeper can go with crusher fines and free floating track (like the prototype). From my experience you will be happier.

Of course with everything in life you will find proponents and opponents for every idea. I can only report what I have expereicned with hundreds of conversation of layout building and of course with my own.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Fry, 

Deleted....need to figure out pictures again.









Bob C.


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## tom h (Jan 2, 2008)

I have since added another loop, this is a old pic, but I have had my 1.5 in PVC pipe in the ground for 4 years now and it has not moved at all, I live south side of Chicago, so I get harsh winters, I think because pipe is hollow and does not have a flat spot to push up with frost heave that it works well, my experience. I use electrical PVC pipe now, UV protected and cheaper, go figure. I cut Trex into strips and used Cedar blocks in between.










Tom h


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I am a big fan of Outdoor elevated Curved Ladder Garden RRing!!! I live in cool GBay, WI.... having a 340 ft layout. 

I consider Paul Race of Ohio as the Basis for The Best Ladder construction info and descriptive techniques..... 

Just Google: Paul Race Ladder RR and start reading......... With out this Info... I would not have built a Garden RR !! 

And yes I had to re-level 2 of 188 PVC 1.5" OD support posts last Spring.... Just back out the Stainless Set Screw & re-adjust height. 

And back aches are at a minimum.. 

Just click on my ID Photo at the left & view 2 photos my Garden RR before the Stainless Track was bent and laid...... 

Dennis M 

PS: The wire feeds are concealed in the spacer block holes....


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine has been outside for four years now and never had any problems. I used1 1/2" pipe, down 28".
Have 250 foot of ladder. If I had to do it again I would use the ladder system again. Very easy to
install.
I would post a photo but the secert code don't work.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

John J makes a strong case for his bombproof concrete roadbed and I've reviewed his other posts on it's virtues but I'm considering a ladder system on my new railroad here in Asheville. For a few reasons; one is, I like that you can get your railroad up and running immediately with your track flying up in the air 'trestle-like' at the proper grades and do your backfill/grading and ballasting later and make changes as possibly unforeseen runoff issues present themselves without tearing up all your floated ballast work if you misjudged a rain runoff/drainage issue. There's been some mention on garden train blogs of the failure point being frost heave. Paul Race says: 

"Drive the posts into the ground through the roadbed far enough to prevent posts from tipping. Space 2 foot maximum. Do not sharpen the end of the post. Sharpening the post like a stake to make it easier to drive will cause the post to push out of the ground later during frost heave." 

Tom H says above: 
"I get harsh winters, I think because pipe is hollow and does not have a flat spot to push up with frost heave that it works well, my experience." 

I have been considering hollow PVC for posts also with similar reasoning. Frost line here is reported to be 12" depth. I wonder if the real key is just getting whatever your posts are to below frost heave depth like with any other footing. 
Has anyone had problems with the posts heaving even when sunk deep? What is the best way to backfill and how wide an area around the ladder do folks recommend for ballast?


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

In my short experience (see post above) I made a few mistakes. For one I used an existing garden plot and expanded it. I took the sod out adn rototilled the soil adding in a gardening mix of topsoil and fertilizer to replace the sod I took out. This greatly loosened the soil up and it now is settling greatly. I set my loop of track in place and eleveated it slightly then drive the PVC electrical conduit posts in about 24 to 30 inches deep. That is not quite the depth of the frost line here in South Western NY state. where they say the frost line goes anywhere from 2 to 4 foot deep. However the loop sets next to the house and my experience has shown the frost level is not so deep nearer the foundation of a house in our area. Of course so far my ladder roadbed loop is fine (or was before winter set in). We've only had about 3 hard freezes and last night when I got home the ground was thawed. OF course now we have a huge lake effect storm coming thru with temps reported to drop into the teens briefly on Sunday. So far I've not noticed tht the loop has shifted at all BUT the ballast has dropped away from the ladder AND the track has shifted on top of the ladder. I am certain I can still run trains on it at this point as the ladder is stable or seems to be and the track is still mostly on top of the ladder. I will defintely need to add a LOT of ballast in the spring when the asphalt plant opens up again and I can source the crushed limestone again. I used about 1 1/2 tons backfilling my 8 foot diameter by 24-25 foot long loop to a height of about 1 foot above the grade of the front yard. In my next expansion of it I will add in packed topsoil around the ladder and then add the ballast on top of it. 

Chas


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

In reply to Mr SRW's questions...... 
AS far as PVC support posts go.... I bought Home Depot 10 ft 1.5" ID (correction) & cut them to 30" or 40" chunks. 
I left 18" white & painted the tops olive drab green for UV protection. 
Before I pounded the posts with a Harbor Freight dead blow orange hammer... I drill augered a 1.25" Dia Drill hole 12" deep at pipe locations. 
Augering found rocks, roots, & reduced hammer blows in half & cut neighbor noise. 
Posts were located at Tangent points (Curve meets a straight) & at 2 ft intervals. Posts were pounded 18" deep to the paint line! 

I have not back filled any location yet...... The width of the ladder may be important for ballast. 
My ladder width is 0.75" + 0.75" + 1.875" ( Bear Board rip + Bear Board rip + (either a PVC post or Bear Board Spacer Block drilled for wires).... 

Ballast addition requires a ladder "cap (flat Foam?)" 

I did fill my 188 posts with Dow Spray foam (Red or black... The less air bubbles the better) to keep Water & ice out since I had no ballast cap............ 

I did tie the rail ties to the ladder every 3 ft by putting UV cable ties around the spacer block. This allows rail float in 2 directions... 

Dennis M from GBay, WI 

PS: Only freight cars (no engines nor Pass) have tumbled off the elevated ladder the past year. Was due to "narrow rail" gauge... Dual Bender fixed the problem.. 
Max track height is 22 inches above the soil... 





I did leveling & height adjustment via a Stainless deck Set Screw on every post on one side only. Post friction fit is tight for 1.875 OD PVC...... & Blocks...


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

More thanks for the input. I can see where frost heave could be an problem in cooler climates but here in Southern Arizona it really isn't a factor. I really appreciate the comment about using an auger with power drill to locate rocks etc before dropping in pipe as I have found quite a few large rocks while putting in water and power lines.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Fry, 

Let me try this again. Here is a pic of our club layout in the process of getting track laid. 










For more pics go to http://www.ecgrc.com/Gordon Lot Projest.html 

Good luck. 

Bob C.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I agree with fyrekop that the advice on using an auger before driving posts would be helpful as you noted all the rock you hit while putting in water & power lines but I think it might also be advisable in some parts of the yard to call Miss Utility to check the railroad area prior to augering so I wouldn't hit one of those water or power lines myself [laugh]. I think the only thing in my backyard is the septic drain field though. Power, phone and water all seem to come on my property from the front as the water shutoff and electric/phone boxes all are along the street so i think I may be safe to use the auger idea out back.
The way my yard slopes I may be able to trench and float the upper 1/2 to 2/3rds of the track on ballast at the current yard level or maybe use John J's concrete road bed idea and I'm thinking of only using the post/ladder support for the lower side that will require backfill and grading and will be prone to settling and washouts for a few years.

Thanks for all the good advice everybody.

Scott


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

still won't show?


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Armorsmith, 

Impressive foundation, both the switchyard as well as the trestles. Gives me some good ideas. Thanks for sharing. 

What are the trestles made of? Looks like maybe ripped down Trex. What are the metal rails made of up on the trestles? or is that just the same material as the ladder rails painted flat black/gray?


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

I think it might also be advisable in some parts of the yard to call Miss Utility to check the railroad area prior to augering so I wouldn't hit one of those water or power lines myself 
If you forgo the auger and just bash in the PVC pipe, there won't be much risk of damage.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Bob C.

Anymore pictures of the club layout? Looks like it is one super nice layout.

Don


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

Say Fyrekop, Where do you live in Southern Arizona!?? Are you a State Fire Marshal perhaps...? Pyrotechnics in the back yard sounds fun!! ha - rails and fireworks!! 

I'm in the Eastern corner of AZ, Dragoon!! Drop a note if you like! 

Dirk Carmichael 
DMS Ry.


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

SRW, 

The trestles are made of the same 1/2 x 1 1/2 PVC material as the ladder road bed, except painted grey. If you look behind the small bushes as the trestle turns to the left, you can see the paint transition to the base white material. The risers are similar material in 1" square also painted. The rest is just Aristo track anchored to the ladder road bed. 

Trains, 

Just below the picture is a link (which I could not get to go hot), copy clip the link into your browser and it will take you to the page on our web site dedicated tot he layout. I have plans to add more of a chronological of the development of the layout with what pictures I have, just need 25 hours in a day and 8 days in a week. 

Enjoy!! 

Bob C.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Dirk I'm in Sierra Vista. Not a State Fire Marshall but I retired from A department in Calif where we did both police and fire, thus Fyrekop. Pyro in the back yard not bad as long as near ground level. It does scare the dogs however. Alan W.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I grew up in MD where the fire depts. back in the 60's helped lead the charge to ban burning fall leaves and make everything but dinky little sparklers illegal. It was a BIG change when I moved to N/E Tennessee in 2007 to find you could burn trash, leaves, any darned thing you wanted to, and that the fire depts. set up stands to SELL fireworks around the 4th of July to generate income, [and maybe drum up business too, who knows? Back in MD all they do is have pancake and oyster feeds and sell Christmas trees to bring in $$.] Plus, the real eye-opener was the firepower of the stuff they sell in TN. Huge mortars and big rockets. The kind that go up about two stories and explode with a force and display that makes you go "Whoa!! Holy S===!! America, what a country!!!" 

Anyway, back on topic; I think originally people ripped treated lumber for the rails and used treated 1x2s for posts. Does anybody still do that or is the plastic wood method not that much more expensive so just go for something that never rots? 

John, it looks like you run some kind of rebar up through your concrete roadbed. Correct? It looks like frost heave is not an issue where you are. Does the concrete just float on the ground? You don't show any anchor posts in your photos.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's the ORIGINAL ladder track how-to-build article...then called HDPE Flexible Roadbed. How to build Ladder Roadbed I still consider this to be one of the most revolutionary designs in GRRing in 10 years.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SRW on 16 Jan 2012 06:54 PM 
I grew up in MD where the fire depts. back in the 60's helped lead the charge to ban burning fall leaves and make everything but dinky little sparklers illegal. It was a BIG change when I moved to N/E Tennessee in 2007 to find you could burn trash, leaves, any darned thing you wanted to, and that the fire depts. set up stands to SELL fireworks around the 4th of July to generate income, [and maybe drum up business too, who knows? Back in MD all they do is have pancake and oyster feeds and sell Christmas trees to bring in $$.] Plus, the real eye-opener was the firepower of the stuff they sell in TN. Huge mortars and big rockets. The kind that go up about two stories and explode with a force and display that makes you go "Whoa!! Holy S===!! America, what a country!!!" 

Anyway, back on topic; I think originally people ripped treated lumber for the rails and used treated 1x2s for posts. Does anybody still do that or is the plastic wood method not that much more expensive so just go for something that never rots? 

John, it looks like you run some kind of rebar up through your concrete roadbed. Correct? It looks like frost heave is not an issue where you are. Does the concrete just float on the ground? You don't show any anchor posts in your photos.




I am in the desert so frost heave is not a issue. I tamp the ground under the road bed with a 5 lb mall with a flat piece of steel welded to it. '
I do not really level the ground under the road bed. The forms are bout 2 inches high maybe 2.5 The forms are level side to side and grade is set if there is a grade. Rebar is added and concrete is poured. In some places there is a vertical support driven in the ground for linear level or consistent grade 

I have changed the process about 5 times. The changes in the process has to do with what I used for forms. I went from garden edging, to Masonite sides to just plain dirt. to Angle Iron to reusable steel sides.

AT one time I used 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/8 angle iron in 10 FT lengths for a 70 FT straight section. The angle Iron was supported every five feet. It was linearly leveled and side to side. The space was the exact width of the ties. The angle Iron became the Re-bar in this case First I was bolting the angle iron together then I learned to weld and welded the spacers in. 

JJ


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

I live where we get all types of weather and free floating track on balast has worked great. Everyone in my area does the same with no problems. The ladder system looks nice but to me it seems like more work and more of an expense. Plus if you want to make changes it seems having the ladder makes it more difficult. If you live in AZ why not try free floating first and see how it holds up. I just never understood how the ladder system could be better. My layout has survived multiple blizzards, hurricans extreme heat and cold. It even had a tornado pass less then 1/4 mile from the RR.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

I tried free floating the first couple of years. Every year I had to work on it because of something.
Then I went to 2 x 6 cedar that lasted for 18 years, started to rot. Lastly I used ladder with plastic 
house trim and 1 1/2" pipe set 28" in to the ground it been out there going on four years with no 
problems. I think you have to used what work in your area.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I started off with free float 14 years a go when I started my first Garden Rail Road. They when I bought this house and started over the contours of the land and the amount of rocks you had to dig up to get a trench to put the ballast in was too much work. I have 2.5 acres and in a heavy desert rain storm you can get ax much as 1 inch deep or more water flowing through my yard. I am talking the full width of the lot 330 feet. I live in a Manufactured home and had to put dirt berms around the house to divert the water around the house rather than have it flow under the house. I did not have a complete loop finished when the first one hit and took everything with it. It moved the track more than fifty feet east of where it was. Lucky I was able to salvage the track. That is when I started with steel and concrete coached by Marty Like everyone else I adapted to the environment where I live. All of the rocks I dug up I actually used on my RR. 

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WRONG WAY TO LAY TRACK. It has to do with what you have to do with the particular space you are building your RR. In my particular case....Build tuff or go home . ( I like that motto) 

Steel plates under my switches, Concrete road bed....Steel bridges with concrete supports. I taught myself to weld so I could make custom bridges. God know I have made mistakes. He was there when I asked him to Bless, well maybe not bless, the mess I just made. 

I have not re leveled track since I put it down. I have had to re ballast but that's it. Even then Ballasting is a long time between. 

Making changes is not that difficult. 

JJ


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 17 Jan 2012 08:35 AM 
I started off with free float 14 years a go when I started my first Garden Rail Road. They when I bought this house and started over the contours of the land and the amount of rocks you had to dig up to get a trench to put the ballast in was too much work. I have 2.5 acres and in a heavy desert rain storm you can get ax much as 1 inch deep or more water flowing through my yard. I am talking the full width of the lot 330 feet. I live in a Manufactured home and had to put dirt berms around the house to divert the water around the house rather than have it flow under the house. I did not have a complete loop finished when the first one hit and took everything with it. It moved the track more than fifty feet east of where it was. Lucky I was able to salvage the track. That is when I started with steel and concrete coached by Marty Like everyone else I adapted to the environment where I live. All of the rocks I dug up I actually used on my RR. 

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WRONG WAY TO LAY TRACK. It has to do with what you have to do with the particular space you are building your RR. In my particular case....Build tuff or go home . ( I like that motto) 

Steel plates under my switches, Concrete road bed....Steel bridges with concrete supports. I taught myself to weld so I could make custom bridges. God know I have made mistakes. He was there when I asked him to Bless, well maybe not bless, the mess I just made. 

I have not re leveled track since I put it down. I have had to re ballast but that's it. Even then Ballasting is a long time between. 

Making changes is not that difficult. 

JJ 
John thats a great example where the free float method will not work.


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Okay. I'm sold...I'll use ALL of the aforementioned methods when i lay my track. [laugh!] 
No seriously. I'm not going to build a raised layout like some of my friends have done with keystone blocks or timbers to get the layout a foot or two above any runoff issues of the yard. Therefore, I plan to build on the ground, in my sloping yard in the woods, following the natural grade. I think now that a combination of both free floating ballast at the higher elevations, AND the post and trestle system will solve those issues that are present on MY particular site. I have a gentle slope through a wooded lot with LARGE established trees, with good drainage. If I plan carefully beforehand for ways for the water to runoff around the tracks and trees with swales and bridges built in areas that i want to channel the rain/runoff water around and into, I should, hopefully, only have to make minor adjustments as mother nature shows me how she wants things to be. The upper elevation of my track will be laid more in the free floating method, at ground level, but with a careful eye to water running down the bank from above and build swales and drains. The lower elevation will have to have some means of bringing things up about a foot to the elevation of the higher track, also with an eye towards drainage swales running under bridges. Therefore i will use post and trestle on the low side and be very careful to build swales to channel runoff under trestles and bridges to allow it to run off down hill. Sounds good in theory. Will see how much track ends up shifted all to H--l and how much ballast ends up downhill in my neighbors yards. Sounds fun! Actually, sounds like a recipe for numerous disastrous surprises. but that will keep things interesting. Time will tell.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

and how much ballast ends up downhill in my neighbors yards. Sounds fun 
The ballast will wash away, as it does on the real thing, but you'll never find it. (One of the great mysteries of floating/ballasted track.) We put about 1/2 yard of crushed rock back on the RGSEast this Fall to cover the ties again. 

Your plan does sound like fun. I'll be starting a small spline/ladder roadbed in FL next year, so I've been reading with interest.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Thanks to SRW for mentioning the septic field. The water and power lines I put in are well documented on sweat strained scale drawings of the yard. We just had the septic tank cleaned and I found out that here in AZ the minimum depth of leach lines is 24" of dirt above a foot of rock then the lines. When I explained why I asked those questions the septic guy asked when was I putting it in and could he come over when the trains are running. The camera will be coming out when I move from drawings to actually moving dirt.


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## bottino (Feb 7, 2008)

You are right Pete, I put a half ton of new ballast on my layout every year for 7 years. I still don't know where it went. 
Good luck in Florida.
Paul


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

Yes, the septic system. I'm still in a quandry about the septic system at my new home. There has been some landscaping, as in some pachysandra and gravel walkways etc., that seems to have buried where the septic tank cover should be. I know pretty much where it should be and know exactly where they put the drain field in but can't detect any odor, soft spots, or runoff in that area. [the trees in the back yard look plenty happy though.] People seem to advise to have the septic tank pumped every four years or so but this septic system is approved for four bedrooms and I'm just a single guy so I know I'm not taxing the system. Still, the last owners of 14 years, two older folks, have NO recollection of ever pumping the tank. I'm waffling back and forth calling a septic tank company to come pump the solids out. It may be fine, but then again, it may be almost full of solids...who knows? Don't have x-ray vision below ground. If I gamble and let it ride for a while it may be a non-issue. However, where I plan to put my railroad is pretty much on top of what I know is the septic drainfield. A gamble, like I said. To be safe I may just have a septic company come find the tank lid and pump out the solids to have piece of mind and also to avoid having my railroad becoming a cesspool. Murphy's law would predict that if I just ignore it...


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

My entire railroad, the Old Salt and Mangrove (Old SnM) is built on an elevated ladder composed of man made material. It is located in FL on a salt water marsh (thus the name). This is why I didn't want any wood! We do get storm surge and I this was my only option to keep the track from contact directly with salt water. It has 3" PVC pounded directly into the ground about 2 feet. A 3" to 2" reducer is on top. The ladder is made from Veranda Tuf Board, an easily bendable PVC material. The ladder rungs (blocks) are made from Trex decking. Everything is screwed together with quality deck screws. To pound the 3" PVC into the ground I use a T fence driver from Northern Equipment. Some of the shorter elevations are 2" PVC put directly into the ground.

Here are a few pictures, some showing a little construction: 
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/Old_SnM_Expansion_5-15-2011.jpg 
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/Old_SnM_Expansion_5-14-2011.jpg 
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/Old_SnM_New_Yard_Turnout_5-15-2011.jpg 
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/HPIM3319.jpg 
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rmcintir/Trains/DSC00612.jpg 

russ


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

Russ: Thanks for sharing the pics of your railroad. How do you connect the reducer to the roadbed? Please share another pic of this connection if possible. Alan


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

One of MY concerns where my septic is supposed to be is sinking posts down below frost. As far as I know that is not going to be acceptable. At that point doing the ladder roadbed for me will be fastened to wood posts set in the deck blocks set on top of patio pavers running across the area where our septic is supposed to be. That and a combination of bridges I think? 

Chas


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

This is where my Septic tank is and how I got across it

The bridge is removable in case I have to get to it. 


It is two ten foot sections of bridge.


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## fyrekop (Sep 20, 2011)

Now that's what I call great solution and the dry wash becomes part of your scenery


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

JJ, can you tell us more about your bridge support risers, they "look" like block work covered in stucco...? What are they? THX 

Dirk 
DMS Ry.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By SD90WLMT on 31 Jan 2012 08:29 PM 
JJ, can you tell us more about your bridge support risers, they "look" like block work covered in stucco...? What are they? THX 

Dirk 
DMS Ry. I hope the following pictures will help you. They were poured in two pours. The base, which is a standard rectangle with some Re bar bent to stand up to join the tops and the bottoms. 

The wide part of the top was laid out on a piece of plywood. The I cut the shape with a jig saw. Some times I do my layouts on cardboard from the sides of big boxes Then the edges of the wide piece was framed with 1x2s The narrow parts were cut to match and also was framed with 1x2s 

The individual parts were then screwed together. The base took a bag and a half of 80 LB to the bag concrete. The tops took two bags each. 

JJ


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## SRW (Jan 13, 2010)

I guessed you poured your trestles but wondered how deep you poured the footer of those trestle/posts. I also want to know how you built your bridge spans John. Did you weld that from metal? 

Scott


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

The footings are about 3 inches thick. The reason I say thick is they are or were sitting on the surface. I leveled off the surface dirt and put the form on top and made sure it was level. Then I added Re bar and poured the concrete. 

I taught my self to weld and built the bridges out of 3/4 square x 1/8 thick tubing.

They are 10 ft spans and are about 12 inches square. 

The double stacks container cars are about 8.5 inches tall. I thought 9 inches is OK 12 is better.

I wish I had made them a little wider. maybe 12.5 to 13 inches. 


You can see that some of the welds are real ugly.

I can not say it often enough that the guys here in MLS have been a god sent.

They have helped me many many times.

Denray sent me a picture chart of good and bad welds and guided me so that now I can do rather good welds. 

Thanks to everyone.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice work JJ. Had no idea anything would be green there!


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Jerry 
It is always green in the desert. Some times it looks like it has a coating of dust on everything and it is a dull green. But after a rain it looks all nice and clean and a vibrant green 

The Wet desert smell before the storm is interesting too. 

JJ


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