# The death of civil discourse



## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Some recent posts here have got me thinking (dangerous, that....), WHY is simple civil discussions on disagreements dying and more and more being replaced with ugly brawls? From the halls of Congress to right here. Compromise is a dirty word. And the other guy is a dirty "so-and-so".....


And a lot of folks probably just jumped up and pointed their fingers at someone else and screamed, "It's all HIS fault!!!!" well, stop, take a look at your pointed finger hand - three other fingers are pointing back RIGHT AT YOU.....


1. Are you as polite to others as you expect others to be towards you?
2. Do you really respect others' right to their OWN beliefs and opinions?
3. Do you think others are less intelligent, or important than you? 

4. Does your hubris prevent you from seeing that you might be mistaken, even if only occasionally?
5. Does your pride prevent you from apologizing when you are in the wrong? 

6. Is 'winning' a disagreement more important to you than the actual truth?
7. Do you get overly outraged about what are actually relatively minor things?

8. Do you HAVE to have the last word? 


I once got permanently banned from a website for stating that "A lie is a lie, no matter who tells it." Why? It was easier to get rid of me than ten of the board owner's friends who were upset about being (politely, but firmly) called out over some bit of easily refutable but repeated as gospel falsehood...Unfair? From my PoV, heck yes.... From the point of a board owner it made perfect sense because a: one is an easier number to ban than a dozen, and b: it's his board, and his choice. Which brings me to the next point. SOMETIMES WHAT IS MOST 'FAIR' IS NOT THE MOST EXPEDIENT... When it happens, how you respond may well make the difference. Publicly taking a board owner or mods to task will NOT change their minds... period. Would you allow a loud obnoxious drunk to take over your house party? Or would you tell him to go home? Would you apologize to him if he started yelling in your front door? What if he actually was right that you were singling him out even though everyone else was drunk too? No? Well then, there you go. Whoever told you back in kindergarten that life would be fair lied. Having a tantrum over it won't change it.



Last point, and it bears repeating. --- Smart people can sometimes have some pretty dumb ideas. Be it politics, religion, social mores, ethics, or even trains. That doesn't make them ANY less deserving of your respect than any other person. Being un-informed or mis-informed _according to YOUR opinion_ does not make them less human. 


Think about it.


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Mik, 

Thanks for posting this.. I have been considering how to address the recent kerfuffles for some time. I just wasn't quite sure how to word it, and you have hit the nail right on the head. I have perhaps a few things to add, and will post my thoughts later this evening or tomorrow as time permits. Thank you again for this great post. 

Shad


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## nkelsey (Jan 4, 2008)

It is a sad truth that the internet and forums allow us to make statements and comments to people that we would never make to their face. There are several forums that I have left because the snarkiness overtook the purpose of the forum. I am here to talk trains, and the fun I have with them, not politics, not religion, not taxes, etc, TRAINS. I do not care if you use track, battery, live steam or uranium to power your train, I don't care if its 1:32, 1:29 or 1:1, I am interested in what you have learned, what you model and yes, the FUN you have with your trains!


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## Nutz-n-Bolts (Aug 12, 2010)

Amen Mik!

One thing I would suggest too, is if something you read gets under your skin a bit, reread it. Think about what the other person said. Is there a way to interpret it different than the first time you read it? Perhaps by adding different inflection to different words? I think a lot of people get upset by what one person meant as a joke. Tone of voice and facial expression are lost in written text and need to be compensated for on both the writers and readers end.


If none of the above works and you really still feel that you have to retort to an individual, how about a PM? Why air dirty laundry? We will never ALL agree 100% on every issue. Lets respect each others rights to be different. This is a great site and hobby full of great folks lets keep it that way!


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm... 

And if you sign on early in the morning, you might be REALLY surprised...


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

Part of that civil discourse is not repeating your point 'ad nauseam'. Quote: "Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe an argument which has been continuing "to [the point of] nausea"...or..."The topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it". 

Dozens of new posts/threads started by the same person stating "X" sucks is an argument of assertion; as such it is not "civil discourse". People tire of it quickly.


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

well said, Mik....


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

I do have one thing to add. I've gotten a few PM's to the effect of it being just a few "usual suspects" ruining the boards, and mods "playing favorites", etc.

My answer is simply this; "You can't control what others do (short of buying the board) but what you CAN control is your own response to it."
NOBODY has the power to MAKE you mad unless YOU allow it.
NOBODY can offend you unless you ALLOW yourself to be offended.

NOBODY can "drive you away".


Does that mean you should tolerate being treated like crap? No. But at least make sure you really are. 




When somebody acts obnoxious, they're usually seeking attention or trying to make themselves feel important... You CAN choose to be the adult to their two year old's tantrum. --- It's the toughest road, sure. Being the "adult" certainly does NOT mean you 'let the "punks" win'. It means you simply don't EVER engage them at their level. You can ignore them like they are beneath notice, and continue the discussion like they never posted. You can ask the mods to step in (I run my own board, and I still tend to ignore bunches of stuff that doesn't interest me or is just SSDD - because, well, I sometimes actually have a LIFE that doesn't involve sitting around 24/7/365 reading every post, the exact second it is posted - so if you don't let me know there's a problem, how am I supposed to know that it's happening? I think the same thing sometimes occurs here, too.)... and occasionally, you can even make them look MORE totally ridiculous by responding in a completely polite and matter-of-fact manner. DENY them the emotional reaction they're seeking, and you've won the skirmish.


As for the "playing favorites" problem... yes, it happens.... EVERYWHERE! Mods are people too. Most folks will tell you their kids are better behaved than the little turds down the street. Maybe they are, and maybe we are all not quite as objective as we'd like to think either. Also, put yourself in the mods' shoes for a minute. How hard would it be for you to come out and tell your best friend that he's being a total a-hole and he needs to leave? How about telling the guy that's regularly paying you money that he needs to sit down and shut up? Even when it's for the best, it's a lot tougher call when YOU are the one having to do it, isn't it? Cut them some slack once in a while, or at least don't attack them over it.


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## Bunker (Feb 7, 2009)

We have devolved to a simple and childish "f-you", but When Insults Had Class 

The exchange between Churchill and Lady Astor: She said, "If you were my husband, I'd give you poison," and he said, "If you were my wife, I'd take it." 

Gladstone, a member of Parliament, to Benjamin Disraeli: "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease." 
That depends, sir," said Disraeli, "On whether I embrace your policies or your mistress." 

"He had delusions of adequacy." 
Walter Kerr 

"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." 
Winston Churchill 

"A modest little person, with much to be modest about." 
Winston Churchill 

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." 
Clarence Darrow 

"He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary." 
William Faulkner (about Ernest Hemingway) 

"Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?" 
Ernest Hemingway (about William Faulkner) 

"Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I'll waste no time reading it." 
Moses Hadas 

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know." 
Abraham Lincoln 

"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." 
Mark Twain 

"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends." 
Oscar Wilde 

"I am enclosing two tickets to the first night of my new play; bring a friend.... If you have one." 
George Bernard Shaw to Winston Churchill 

"Cannot possibly attend first night, will attend second... If there is one." 
Winston Churchill, in response. 

"I feel so miserable without you; it's almost like having you here." 
Stephen Bishop 

"He is a self-made man and worships his creator." 
John Bright 

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial." 
Irvin S. Cobb 

"He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." 
Samuel Johnson 

"He is simply a shiver looking for a spine to run up." 
Paul Keating 

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure." 
Jack E. Leonard 

"He has the attention span of a lightning bolt." 
Robert Redford 

"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge." 
Thomas Brackett Reed 

"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded easily." 
Charles, Count Talleyrand 

"He loves nature in spite of what it did to him." 
Forrest Tucker 

"Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it?" 
Mark Twain 

"His mother should have thrown him away and kept the stork.” 
Mae West 

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." 
Oscar Wilde** 

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... For support rather than illumination." 
Andrew Lang (1844-1912) 

"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." 
Billy Wilder 

"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." 
Groucho Marx=


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

Decades ago, when I was young and stupid, as opposed to now that I am just stupid and mind your own business about my age....I got into something of a tiff with a co-worker - I don't remember who, or even where I was working at the time. It had something to do with a written message, and I don't remember if it was something posted on a bulletin board, or put in someone's mailbox (long before email, etc.) or how else it might have been delivered. 

I recall my (our) boss called me into his office and took maybe a minute of my time to gently remind me that the written word is devoid of inflection, volume, intonation, curtness. Also missing is body language, facial expressions, timing, etc. What is written by one person can be take on nuances never intended. The writer has no way of knowing what might be misinterpreted by the reader. As he said, "Bob" can be interpreted as "BOBB!!". 

And now there's the Internet!! A world of print, written by people who may or may not have had proper schooling in writing as a communications skill, much less logic. Typos, run-on sentences, misplaced modifiers - we all make misteaks. And certainly we have no desire to put down people who cannot express themselves as skillfully as others do. Add to that, the horrible examples of "public discourse" that have been given to us in the guise of "entertainment", personal opinion, etc., by the various gasbags on radio and television, both nationally and locally. How quickly we can forget our manners when so many in the public spotlight feel no need to show respect to the caller who disagrees or the guest whose statistics contradict their own opinions. 

Ann Landers, or was it her sister Abby, recommended that when we write an angry letter, we should wait a day and then re-read it before mailing it. The Internet is so immediate, the least we can do is re-read our postings, check punctuation and grammar as best we can, and then think of what the people who read the post will take from it. Will they read "Bob" or BOBB!!"? 

JackM


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 21 Jul 2011 01:47 PM 
I do have one thing to add. I've gotten a few PM's to the effect of it being just a few "usual suspects" ruining the boards, and mods "playing favorites", etc.

My answer is simply this; "You can't control what others do (short of buying the board) but what you CAN control is your own response to it."
NOBODY has the power to MAKE you mad unless YOU allow it.
NOBODY can offend you unless you ALLOW yourself to be offended.

NOBODY can "drive you away".


Does that mean you should tolerate being treated like crap? No. But at least make sure you really are. 




When somebody acts obnoxious, they're usually seeking attention or trying to make themselves feel important... You CAN choose to be the adult to their two year old's tantrum. --- It's the toughest road, sure. Being the "adult" certainly does NOT mean you 'let the "punks" win'. It means you simply don't EVER engage them at their level. You can ignore them like they are beneath notice, and continue the discussion like they never posted. You can ask the mods to step in (I run my own board, and I still tend to ignore bunches of stuff that doesn't interest me or is just SSDD - because, well, I sometimes actually have a LIFE that doesn't involve sitting around 24/7/365 reading every post, the exact second it is posted - so if you don't let me know there's a problem, how am I supposed to know that it's happening? I think the same thing sometimes occurs here, too.)... and occasionally, you can even make them look MORE totally ridiculous by responding in a completely polite and matter-of-fact manner. DENY them the emotional reaction they're seeking, and you've won the skirmish.


As for the "playing favorites" problem... yes, it happens.... EVERYWHERE! Mods are people too. Most folks will tell you their kids are better behaved than the little turds down the street. Maybe they are, and maybe we are all not quite as objective as we'd like to think either. Also, put yourself in the mods' shoes for a minute. How hard would it be for you to come out and tell your best friend that he's being a total a-hole and he needs to leave? How about telling the guy that's regularly paying you money that he needs to sit down and shut up? Even when it's for the best, it's a lot tougher call when YOU are the one having to do it, isn't it? Cut them some slack once in a while, or at least don't attack them over it.


A noble sentiment to be sure. I agree with everything you have said.

But, when someone breaks ALL of the rules AND they continue to be allowed to post, just what is one supposed to think about all of those rules?


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

"But, when someone breaks ALL of the rules AND they continue to be allowed to post, just what is one supposed to think about all of those rules?" 

Bingo!! From what I can tell, the only rules on MLS these days are the ones the MODs *FEEL* like enforcing - and that seems to change day to day, post to post...


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By parkdesigner on 21 Jul 2011 04:04 PM 
"But, when someone breaks ALL of the rules AND they continue to be allowed to post, just what is one supposed to think about all of those rules?" 

Bingo!! From what I can tell, the only rules on MLS these days are the ones the MODs *FEEL* like enforcing - and that seems to change day to day, post to post... 



Not true.. And whatever action I take or don't take against a member is quite frankly between me and that member, and not you.


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

So as a DUES paying member of this forum - *I* am required to follow the rules posted - but you reserve the right to let your friends ignore the same rules?


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

And Shad - it is VERY TRUE... maybe if you paid attention to this forum WE PAY YOU FOR you would notice which of you "MODs" are outright jerks...


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Watches with intense interest.....


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ShadsTrains on 21 Jul 2011 04:20 PM 
Posted By parkdesigner on 21 Jul 2011 04:04 PM 
"But, when someone breaks ALL of the rules AND they continue to be allowed to post, just what is one supposed to think about all of those rules?" 

Bingo!! From what I can tell, the only rules on MLS these days are the ones the MODs *FEEL* like enforcing - and that seems to change day to day, post to post... 



Not true.. And whatever action I take or don't take against a member is quite frankly between me and that member, and not you. 
Not true? Really?


So, if I make a post with extreme profanity and I make personal attacks against SEVERAL people that's OK, as long as I've made over 2000 posts?


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## ShadsTrains (Dec 27, 2007)

None of my mods are outright jerks. They take a lot of crap and put up with a lot of people calling them names (case in point) for doing what I have asked them to do. They are here for one purpose, and that is to help keep the peace in the forums, and they do a damn fine job of it. Unfortunately, the same handful of people are always complaining about the same handful of other people, making the forums unpleasant for everyone else. 

I've not allowed anyone to get away with anything. I am dealing with situations in my own time and in my own way. How you choose to perceive what I do is your choice, and I can't convince you otherwise. But be rest assured, there are things going on behind the scenes you are not aware of. 

And as always, no one forces you to come to the site and read here. It's your choice. If you don't like what's going on, well then...


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

You know, I suppose some of you have fair points. If someone has done the things remarked upon here, and been allowed to continue unabated, then it is fair to comment upon it. 

HOWEVER 
You do not pay Shad to run this site the way you like. You pay for the privilege of using HIS site that he runs the way HE likes. As with any other service or club, if you don't like the way it works, you can always make a suggestion, but in the end either enjoy it as it is or leave. 

I check this site daily, and frequently several times a day when I am home and not doing something more important. I do not have a problem with extreme profanity or personal attacks, because I ignore them. When a thread degrades to that point, I assume there will be no more useful or interesting content there, and I simply chose not to read it further. May I suggest that others try this approach? It is a lot more relaxing than joining in the fray and becoming another of those people that people like me would rather ignore.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

It is nice to see Shad posting again. 
change subject, 
The same handfull goes to the other sites also. 
Or you can pay to go to one site where the lord of the rangs watches from his mountain top. 
What some of US are simply saying, it gets old hearing the same bashing from the same handfull EVEN if they have the facts right. 
If someone implied that Shad is lazy and does not care about his site, I would jump in and defend you I would then be Kool-aid., thus the cycle continues.....even if the facts appear to support such a claim.


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

If you don't like what's going on, well then... ...you will give me my refund and I can go? Because if that's the case, then you sir have a deal!


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 
You know, I suppose some of you have fair points. If someone has done the things remarked upon here, and been allowed to continue unabated, then it is fair to comment upon it. 

HOWEVER 
You do not pay Shad to run this site the way you like. You pay for the privilege of using HIS site that he runs the way HE likes. As with any other service or club, if you don't like the way it works, you can always make a suggestion, but in the end either enjoy it as it is or leave. 

I check this site daily, and frequently several times a day when I am home and not doing something more important. I do not have a problem with extreme profanity or personal attacks, because I ignore them. When a thread degrades to that point, I assume there will be no more useful or interesting content there, and I simply chose not to read it further. May I suggest that others try this approach? It is a lot more relaxing than joining in the fray and becoming another of those people that people like me would rather ignore. 




That is exactly why I was commenting upon it.


You're right, he can run it the way he wants, and that appears to be the way he wants to run it. Like you, I have refrained from posting in topics that contain extreme profanity or have personal attacks. I ignore a lot of threads, as you do. But, I sure dislike seeing those same folks to continue....


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By DKRickman on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 

I do not have a problem with extreme profanity or personal attacks, because I ignore them. When a thread degrades to that point, I assume there will be no more useful or interesting content there, and I simply chose not to read it further. May I suggest that others try this approach? It is a lot more relaxing than joining in the fray and becoming another of those people that people like me would rather ignore.
These are my sentiments exactly. It is much easier than trying to convince other people to behave in a way you approve of than to simply ignore disagreeable behavior.


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Compared to some of the forums I have posted at (and still do), this one is a model of decorum.


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## Esppe Pete (Jan 21, 2008)

I'll throw my 2 cents in, keeping in mind it is my opinion and like everyones in an anoynomus form, it is surly worth close to 2 cents! Perception is yours to own and as MiK stated, your choice to react to and how you choose to respond. Point, two wrong do not make a right and for another "when you jump into the pin pen for a fight, you may win, but you will always get muddy! 

I've have been on this forum for years, it has become more edgy and polarizing. I am more of a reader Mik point is that it doesn't have to be. We all love Large scale model trains and that is what should unify us, and this forum is and has been a great place to share both our admiration of L/S trains and frustrations. Everyone's perspective is unique to themselves but collectively the information here is invaluable, to fellow train enthusists and the manufacturers!


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

So there will be a Wake then???? (said for a laugh) 

In real life I use the informal 24 hour rule... do I really want to say that? 

But on the Internet it becomes another point that if I don't say something, then I agree... Oh my! Can't have that ? Can we? 

I am trying to be a better apple. 

John dos centavos por favor


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## work4fil (Jan 4, 2008)

I want to thank Mik for bringing this thread to light. Well said. It is easy to allow emotions get the best of us, especially when it involves the trains we are passionate about. 

There is alot of good information here to share, which we do not need to dillute with the toxins of emotion. I thoroughly enjoy coming here and getting ideas. I also find some of the banter entertaining. I realize that it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt. But these are our trains, so let's not forget why we are drawn here. 

Shad, you take a lot of guff from people, who do not appreciate the work you do here and behind the scenes. You are a better person than I am. You have a world class site here. I want to thank you for providing us with a forum to share and enjoy our shared passion. 

Thank you again! 

Fil


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 
...
What some of US are simply saying, it gets old hearing the same bashing from the same handfull EVEN if they have the facts right. 
... 
WOW Marty....even if they have the facts right? Woof. I understand your concern...but when manufacturers (pick one) develop a product that has flaws, is it bashing when the criticism states the facts right? I know this is a touchy subject, but somehow we need to be able to hear "truth"...especially when defects effect basic operability (the latest discourse on the Aristo Consolidation comes to mind).

IMHO opinion, we (all of us) somehow have to get beyond factual criticism as "bashing"....and the counter point as "koolaide gang" remarks. That's kinda point one.


Then we have another situation we see often...when a post suggests/recommends doing something that isn't wise, perhaps dumb in other folks views. But that's what a forum is for...to expose and help correct. Most of the time, we see the suggestion/recommendation commented on in a nice way...then again, there are times when it's not done too well...and folks feelings get involved. Then all **** breaks loose. Point two.


The only way I can see that point two gets resolved is by the good will of the two involved. Like Mik suggests...folks need to step back...and think. Secondly...being polite, using 3rd person speech, being factual and not inflammatory, explaining vs criticizing....helps.


I've read every post you've ever made here I think...you're one of our masters...but I don't agree with your statement that it gets "old hearing the same bashing .... if they have the facts right." I think THAT is fundamentally what a forum is about...opinions and the right facts...and everything else is up for discussion.


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## Ralph Berg (Jun 2, 2009)

Posted By Bruce Chandler on 21 Jul 2011 04:44 PM 
Posted By ShadsTrains on 21 Jul 2011 04:20 PM 
Posted By parkdesigner on 21 Jul 2011 04:04 PM 
"But, when someone breaks ALL of the rules AND they continue to be allowed to post, just what is one supposed to think about all of those rules?" 

Bingo!! From what I can tell, the only rules on MLS these days are the ones the MODs *FEEL* like enforcing - and that seems to change day to day, post to post... 



Not true.. And whatever action I take or don't take against a member is quite frankly between me and that member, and not you. 
Not true? Really?


So, if I make a post with extreme profanity and I make personal attacks against SEVERAL people that's OK, as long as I've made over 2000 posts? 







I know Bruce.
I know Bruce generally avoids posting on controversial issues.
I don't know who/what Bruce is referring to.
If Bruce feels there is a problem, there may very well be a problem.
Ralph


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I really hate this "kool aid" crap. I think it is a terrible disrespect to a group of misguided people who died in a outrageous tragedy in South America.

It is a Phrase concocted to Blatantly insult a person's intelligence who had a different opinion.



One should post " This is the problem I found, This is what I did to fix it." 

The next guy can post " This is what I did to fix it." 

If you think that the guy who posted before you is a blithering idiot is a fact that does not need to be pointed out. 

Send a note to the manufacture. " He I found this problem and this is what I did to fix it."

You do not have to make derogatory remarks about his parental origin.

Who really cares. Yours Runs. You fixed your problem ( mostly what this hobby is about) and you told everybody how to fix it. Life is good.

JJ 

Thanks Allen for your insite. It is a great post


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

I dislike the "Kool-aide" references because they are nothing but disrespectful...I hate the a**-kissing emoticons as they too are nothing but disrespectful...I hate the posts that pop in with "Well at least my USA engine won't burst into flames" and pop out with nothing of substance to add. I dislike words like "evil-bait, Polky-Boy, Red Boxer, Botch-man, etc." 

I have noted that no apologies have come forward by those willing to burn Aristo at the stake for fires they blamed them for without knowing the facts. 

And I will admit, I dislike the fact this behavior is tolerated. It's trollish, boorish, and flat out rude.


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## afinegan (Jan 2, 2008)

As an internet veteran ( and a youngish guy compared to the average), I don't really see a problem with how this forum runs at all. 


There is a basic rule of all forums on the internet:


"Don't feed the troll"










Just don't reply to them, keep the topic at hand, and don't put your emotions into ANYTHING you read on the internet. Save that for when you meet them in person.

Unfortunately, manners on the internet are far and few between. On a side note, there are more manners present on this board than on most others! (others as in the entire internet, not just largescale)


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Wiser words have not been said, "Don't feed the troll." 

Shad, your doing fine. "You can please some of the people all the time, but you cant please all the people some of the time." 

And to add my $0.02. I dont think it is just the internet. I'm noticing it in real life as well. I had this very discussion with my employees yesterday about a customer who came in "ranting and raving" about a problem. When we certainly were willing to fix it and did so. Then had to appologise for being rude. When she should not have had to if she was polite in the first place and would have gotten the same treatment. 

I dont have the answer, because it seems more and more people have lost sight of what manners are. And this is not just the younger generation. The lady I talked about, she was in her mid 50s.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The meaning and use of kool aid has already been beaten to death JJ.

In fact you started a thread about it, and got pretty excited...

*http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/5...fault.aspx* 


It's not meant to say that the kool-aiders are going to die a terrible death, it's used for "blindly believing a story", usually untrue or fantastic.


I really wish a moderator would come in when all of a sudden in a thread, someone starts calling people names (violation of first rule of MLS) and using bad language (violation of second rule of MLS) 


Oh wait, it IS a moderator.











Greg


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## Mik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jake3404 on 22 Jul 2011 09:43 AM 
I dont have the answer, because it seems more and more people have lost sight of what manners are. And this is not just the younger generation. The lady I talked about, she was in her mid 50s. 
It isn't just young folks. They are just the easiest to blame, since..... Socrates time? I wonder if Adam bemoaned the lack of manners in Cain and Able as they grew up? OTOH, ever seen what happens when harried cashier accidentally forgets to ring in somebody's "Senior Discount"? Armageddon over a 50c cup of coffee, anyone? ...... The problem is that there is no longer much, if any, social consequences for behaving badly. In fact, all too often we (as a society) actually reward it, instead..... A reality TV show, or even a job promotion. As an ex friend of mine often said, "Maybe there's no 'I' in TEAM, but there sure is 'M,E'!"-- meaning, "As long as I get mine, why should I care what happens to you"....and when that attitude carries over from business to personal interaction, we are surprised?


As for labels and name calling, sociologists and psychologists claim it's a hallmark of either bigotry (overt or subliminal) or intellectual laziness. It's much easier to pigeonhole (and dismiss) someone, than try to deal with them as an individual. Face it, to most of the rest of the world, the whole bloody lot of us would probably be pigeonholed as "GANGYs" (a Brit anagram slur for train watchers, it stands for - "Green Anorak, No Girlfriend Yet")......but are we? Well the jerk/bas---/koolaider/ventilator/obliviot/moron/blahblahblah probably isn't whatever your favorite pigeonhole label, either.


Cussing and profanity are sometimes called intellectual laziness, as well (or a mark of being too mad to think), but I think it's more often just a bad habit left over from youth, BUT, here's a really funny thing...... Most folks tend to cuss the most around people they are comfortable with. You habitually use a lot more 'colorful' language amongst your friends, than your co-workers, in-laws, or strangers.--- so that F-bomb the guy just used about your idea or person, might just mean the other fellow likes you.--- weird, huh?


And BTW, I'm finding all the finger pointing and defensive posturing that's being demonstrated in a thread about "owning" your part in contributing to incivility in disagreements ironically hilarious.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

In many self-help groups is the saying; 

If you spot it, you got it. 

In other words we tend to hold others to higher standards than we apply to ourselves. 
I see that in my buddy, he complains about others and then does the same to me. I accept it as part of his personality and I choose to over look it as the friendship does matter. 

Perhaps the 'overlooking' by choice is the missing piece to peace. 

John


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

more and more people have lost sight of what manners are 
A timely thread. Gratifying that a lot of MLSers care. 

My take is that you learn good manners from your parents. Don't you think the lack of parenting, due to over-scheduling and two-career households, has a lot to do with it? 

There was the ex-NPR guy on NPR (where else) yesterday decrying the loss of civil discourse in Washington. When you see your elected representatives behaving with bad manners on TV all the time - not to mention the reality show people; and we won;t even mention Jerry Springer.


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

If you want to see real rudeness and name-calling, just wait for our politicians to let loose over the next year or so...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Pete Thornton on 22 Jul 2011 11:52 AM 
more and more people have lost sight of what manners are 
A timely thread. Gratifying that a lot of MLSers care. 

My take is that you learn good manners from your parents. Don't you think the lack of parenting, due to over-scheduling and two-career households, has a lot to do with it? 

There was the ex-NPR guy on NPR (where else) yesterday decrying the loss of civil discourse in Washington. When you see your elected representatives behaving with bad manners on TV all the time - not to mention the reality show people; and we won;t even mention Jerry Springer. 
You can turn off the TV, or not reward shows the promote vulgarity and boorish behavior by not watching them. My wife and I got rid of all our TVs four years ago--we haven't missed them a bit. No more loud, garish, braying ads, no more cable news ranters, no sensational dreck passing as news, no more inane laugh tracks, no cable bills. We waste plenty of time, but on quieter stuff.

My kids have good manners, and both of us work, We set the standard in the way we conduct ourselves at home. It has nothing to do with two people working, in my opinion


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 22 Jul 2011 01:14 AM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 
...
What some of US are simply saying, it gets old hearing the same bashing from the same handfull EVEN if they have the facts right. 
... 
WOW Marty....even if they have the facts right? Woof. I understand your concern...but when manufacturers (pick one) develop a product that has flaws, is it bashing when the criticism states the facts right? I know this is a touchy subject, but somehow we need to be able to hear "truth"...especially when defects effect basic operability (the latest discourse on the Aristo Consolidation comes to mind).


Mike, your missing it. Its like when I shared about the new AML hoppers and the parts falling apart. Simple info , did not go very far. But If another manuf. had done it ,boy it would have been blown all out of proportion.

Thats my point.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Mik on 22 Jul 2011 10:53 AM 

Cussing and profanity are sometimes called intellectual laziness, as well (or a mark of being too mad to think), but I think it's more often just a bad habit left over from youth, BUT, here's a really funny thing...... Most folks tend to cuss the most around people they are comfortable with. You habitually use a lot more 'colorful' language amongst your friends, than your co-workers, in-laws, or strangers.--- so that F-bomb the guy just used about your idea or person, might just mean the other fellow likes you.--- weird, huh?


And BTW, I'm finding all the finger pointing and defensive posturing that's being demonstrated in a thread about "owning" your part in contributing to incivility in disagreements ironically hilarious. 



Marvelous insight, MIK. The weirdness and irony are manifold.


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NTCGRR on 22 Jul 2011 02:03 PM 
Posted By Mike Reilley on 22 Jul 2011 01:14 AM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 
...
What some of US are simply saying, it gets old hearing the same bashing from the same handfull EVEN if they have the facts right. 
... 
WOW Marty....even if they have the facts right? Woof. I understand your concern...but when manufacturers (pick one) develop a product that has flaws, is it bashing when the criticism states the facts right? I know this is a touchy subject, but somehow we need to be able to hear "truth"...especially when defects effect basic operability (the latest discourse on the Aristo Consolidation comes to mind).


Mike, your missing it. Its like when I shared about the new AML hoppers and the parts falling apart. Simple info , did not go very far. But If another manuf. had done it ,boy it would have been blown all out of proportion.

Thats my point.


Concur...it DOES approach and achieve flogging of the dead horse sometimes...and that's when I conclude


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By John J on 22 Jul 2011 07:01 AM 
I really hate this "kool aid" crap. I think it is a terrible disrespect to a group of misguided people who died in a outrageous tragedy in South America.




Especially true, as they did NOT even use Kool Aide in Jonestown... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavor_Aid


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

If I may be so bold, it's not really " The Death of Civil Discourse" so much as "A _Dearth_ of Civil Discourse!" I used to get really worked up about things I read on the forum but not anymore, not really! It's when someone crosses the line and starts throwing personal insults that I can still get my blood pressure up. There's really no cause for it. Of course, I really would hate for MLS to become something like the Aristo Forum where any kind of criticism is immediately and ruthlessly squelched! Due to the relative freedom of expression that is allowed on this site, there are bound to be "squables" that will break out from time to time. This is the inherent risk in allowing free expression! Of course, the other side of the coin is that it's a privilege to be an active participant here on MLS and as such, a certain amount of civility is expected from it's members! There will always be members that will try the patience of others with their postings. We need to deal with it privately,_ not _ publicly on the forums! The rules of conduct are pretty plain and they are not difficult to follow! Civil discourse is still with us. It's just that, as with the rainfall situation across the western plains, we are experiencing a severe drought! Remember, this is a _hobby! _It's supposed to be enjoyable!!! If it's not, you're doing it wrong!


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

My kids have good manners, and both of us work, We set the standard in the way we conduct ourselves at home. It has nothing to do with two people working, in my opinion 

I meant no criticism of anyone's specific kids - merely pointing out that parental supervision of the average kid has been reduced. I have been appalled by the behavior of some high school kids when I volunteered to go on trips. And eventually they grow up and end up here . . .


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Have I said anything nasty about anybody??? Define nasty...


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Surely you jest...


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't call me Surely... 

Some spam got my contact list so I deleted it..
One person sent me a note saying someone hacked into my e-mails. who knows.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh man! That truely sucks!! (For intentional spamming and/or hacking, I would propose a return of tar and feathering! Oh, and for that "widow of the Nigerian banker who has all of that moolah that she needs to send to everybody to hide for her," how about being forced to send letters of apology to everyone that "she" has tried to con _by snail mail!!!)_







Okay, this was a perfect example of "venting" (amazingly enough, picturing some sleazy European gang getting caught, tried, convicted, tarred and feathered as a lesson to others has a certain charm as long as it's just in my imagination...)


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem certainly isn't confined to MLS







- which, as has already been mentioned, is one of the *more civil *







forums. 

The only model railroad forums I regularly visit are (in order of the frequency I visit them, most > last): *MLS, *Bachmann's *"Ask The Bach-man", Garden Railways, *and *(VERY infrequently) *the Aristo forum. I *do *find a lot of the practices of the Aristo forum personally objectionable







(particularly as far as making like the *other large-scale manufacturer's don't exist). *







Granted, as a manufacturer & provider of the forum, it's their right; I also have the right not to participate if I so choose. (I should add a slight disclaimer; although I run mostly Bachmann equipment, *most of my track is Aristo "Euro"-style brass). *At present, I have only 2 Aristo locos on the roster (an RS-3 & a recently-acquired FA, both of which run & operate *very smoothly *







). The RS-3 in the newly-released pre-McGinnis New Haven paint scheme & a New Haven RDC-3 are both on the "shopping list" for future acquisition.







- So I'm certainly not going to deny myself products they make that I'm interested in just because I disagree slightly with their forum practices.


The civility issue isn't confined to Large Scale Railroading (or the overall model railroad hobby in general) *by a long shot. *







As others have mentioned, one only need to bring up a news website & read of the current idiotic *game of "chicken" *







playing out in Washington at the moment (or drive in heavy traffic around any major city!). I've seen similar battles in the RC aircraft hobby & amateur radio - a hobby which I *formerly enjoyed *







but have *all but gotten out of *due to some *very personal insults I've taken *







over past years. It's rather amazing how some people tend to equate *choosing one brand over another *







- whether it's a large-scale train manufacturer, RC-radio supplier, ham radio manufacturer, cell-phone or computer brand, etc., etc. - with the *same intensity as choice of religion or political affiliation. *







Remember guys, *this is a hobby - it's supposed to be 'FUN!" *







- and name-calling & personal attacks will *drive people out of it. *







(Translation: *fewer *people in the hobby, *fewer sales *by manufacturers, *fewer choices for all of us). *









*Tom*


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## jake3404 (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 22 Jul 2011 02:26 PM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 22 Jul 2011 02:03 PM 
Posted By Mike Reilley on 22 Jul 2011 01:14 AM 
Posted By NTCGRR on 21 Jul 2011 05:02 PM 
...
What some of US are simply saying, it gets old hearing the same bashing from the same handfull EVEN if they have the facts right. 
... 
WOW Marty....even if they have the facts right?  Woof.  I understand your concern...but when manufacturers (pick one) develop a product that has flaws, is it bashing when the criticism states the facts right?  I know this is a touchy subject, but somehow we need to be able to hear "truth"...especially when defects effect basic operability (the latest discourse on the Aristo Consolidation comes to mind).
 
 
Mike, your missing it. Its like when I shared about the new AML hoppers and the parts falling apart. Simple info , did not go very far. But If another manuf. had done it ,boy it would have been blown all out of proportion.
 
Thats my point.


Concur...it DOES approach and achieve flogging of the dead horse sometimes...and that's when I conclude


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm thinking it's probably time again for these two videos! What you tink???? Now don't get yer panties in an uproar, it's all in fun, and I thought timely!! Regal 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIyr5TXqe8Y 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk


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## Al McEvoy (Jan 3, 2008)

Funny stuff but true! 
Thanks Regal 
Al


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## Jim in MO (Feb 28, 2010)

I now spend more time on this forum than any other. I voluntary PAID a membership fee to this forum, to help support it (never did that before). I have spent a lot of time in the past on other boards only to decide I was wasting my time and haven't gone back. I can honestly say I have learned more here than at ANY other RR site. 

I want to hear the praises and the problems other's have had with products and procedures. I feel we all can learn from each other even when we don't have the SAME EXACT feelings or experiences. Making negative comments about a product or a procedure is just that, it is about the product / procedure not about the person posting the "other side". A forum that doesn't allow both sides isn't what anyone wants.

Bottom line; Don't Take It Personally AND Don't make It Personal.

Is this board perfect? No, but compared to what else is out there it comes really close. Shad deserves our support and we deserve his.


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