# Which came first, Diesels or Streamliners?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Actually I know the answer is that Diesel Locomotives came out before Steamlined Coaches but what I am really looking for is the overlap period when Streamlined Diesels such as EMD F's and E's and Alco F's were pulling Heavyweight cars and when they had replaced those Heavyweights with Streamliners.

In many cases (in model trains) I like the painted look better than the aluminum/stainless steel look. I prefer color matched locos and coaches so a Warbonnet loco looks great to me with silver Streamliners but a painted F7 or FA-1 (to me) looks better pulling matched paint Heavyweights instead of silver Streamliners.

What I am trying to do is to identify the transition era when the railroads where still pulling their Heavyweights with F's and E's. For that matter what happened to the Heavyweights? Were they phased out quickly or did they (perhaps along with steam locos) find their way onto less important routes?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

JErry, In one of my Pennsy books it shows a GG1 (I know it's an electric.) pulling Streamliners and Heavyweights. 
Regards, 
LAO


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry I think it really depends on the specific railroad. 

Heavy weights were used by some railroads long after the streamliners came along 

Here is a picture of a B&O passenger train dated 1964 with what looks like a heavyweight passenger car in tow.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewpho...mp;nseq=48

Randy


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

I thought it was Big Steam Engines and Heavy Weights first. Then Diesel and stream liners came together....Look at the engine that went to the World Fair. It was Diesel and Streamliner cars.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

None of the roads replaced all equipment at once. First the heavyweights got bumped from the name trains to secondary lines and then commuters (if they ran them)... or sold to lesser lines. 
Selling tickets out weighed style and a heavyweigh might be added for the seats, if there wasn't enough demand for a second section. Often a second section could be all heavies... 

You'd need to do it road by road....


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes you would have to look at it RR by RR as they all tended to start to use diesels at different times and continue to even operate the heavy weights prior to the new stream liner cars. Matter of fact they used both in service till phasing out the heavy wights. Later RJD


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry

First off, a note of clarification. You referred to painted cars as if they were all heavyweights and stainless/aluminum as if they were the only streamliners. Both are untrue assumptions. A few railroads (most notably the Santa Fe and CP) ordered stainless and aluminum cars primarily from Budd. Most railroads in fact used painted steel lightweight cars (or streamliners) and the paint schemes matched their heavyweight cars in most cases. Look at the Canadian National, NYC and the Pennsy for examples.

A second note of clarification ... Pullman owned and operated most sleeping and special purpose cars in the USA until 1948. Anti trust laws at that point forced them to divest their fleet. Although Pullman operated and owned a few cars painted to match the streamlined trains they rode in, the vast majority of Pullman owned cars were heavyweights and painted Pullman green. After 1948, the railroads who took over the ownership of Pullman cars repainted them.

Diesels were introduced in small numbers prior to World War II and as they were new they were assigned to the premier passenger trains. Most eastern USA roads used E units (and later PAs) in passenger service while most western roads and Canadian roads used F units with steam gens added. The newest trains were assigned the newest passenger cars - the building of new heavyweights ceased with the Depression and only streamlined or lightweight cars were built new from the early 30s on. Very little new passenger car or diesel construction took place during the war.

Post World War II, diesels were built in increasing numbers and most railroads refurbished at least part of their passenger fleet with new lightweight cars scrapping old worn out heavyweights. When the bottom fell out of the passenger business in the early 1950s, new construction died and the remaining fleets of streamlined and heavyweight cars soldiered on. Bit by bit as traffic fell and trains were eliminated, cars were scrapped starting with the oldest or worst maintained heavyweights. By the time Amtrak and VIA Rail appeared, most heavyweights were gone.

Steam of course vanished during the 1950s earlier on some roads than on others. Canadian National for example unveiled its new Super Continental in 1955 pulled by FP7s and containing mostly new streamlined cars painted green black and gold but a few heavyweights were always included in the fleet. CN continued to run many name trains including the Maple Leaf, the International Limited and the InterCity Limited behind Northerns and Mountains right to the end of steam in 58-59. All these trains had a preponderance of lightweight equipment but with some heavyweight cars included in the mix.

Post mid 60s, the old E units began to fade away and were replaced in passenger service by whatever ragtag lashup a railroad could find that could also produce steam for the cars they pulled. This condition lasted into the Amtrak Via era when those agencies gradually rationalized and improved the passenger fleets both locos and rolling stock.

Regards ... Doug


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

The Union Pacific had a steam power passenger train called the 49ner. The train was pulled by either a streamlined 4-8-2 or a 4-6-2. 

The passenger equipment was modified heavy weight cars and the last two cars was an articulated light weight set which included an observation. This was an interesting concept as the older heavy weight cars were modified to look like smooth side light weights. From memory it was done due to a shortage of light weight cars and the time it would take to get new ones, it was quicker to modify and rebuild heavy weights. 

The loco streamlining and consist were only short lived, but it shows an attractive consist made up of both heavy and light weights. It was all over before 1948, before the era I model in HO, but I still have one because it looks so nice. 

Alan


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Many railroads never owned any streamliner cars at all.. 
the Lehigh Valley went from "Steam + Heavyweights" to "Diesels + Heavyweights".. 
they never bought a full streamliner trainset, like many other railroads did.. 
they "made do" with a motley mix of cars right up to the end of passenger service in 1960.. 

Scot


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## Mike O (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 

There are several different aspects to your question. First, as others have stated, it depends on the railroad. On some, lightweights came before diesels, on others, particularly the eastern coal roads, steam lasted into the lightweight era. However, there is another â€œit dependsâ€� â€" it depends on the train. Lightweights came first to the class 1 or mainline passenger trains. However, the class 2 or local passenger trains would have continued to use heavyweights well into the lightweight era and may have only seen the newer cars after the mainline passenger traffic declined by around 50% in the mid 1950s freeing newer cars for local use. Most locals, however did not have Pullman cars in their consist. And, of course, commuter trains could draw almost any power that was available and were typically heavyweight coaches into the 1950â€™s. 

As Doug pointed out, the shift was complicated a bit by the Pullman breakup that was caused by the 1940 lawsuit by the Budd company. In 1944 the court ruled that Pullman had to divest themselves of the operating arm or the manufacturing arm. In 1947 57 railroads (59 later) bought the Pullman fleet and then leased it back to Pullman for operation. Prior to that most heavyweights were Pullman green, even the cars owned by the railroads. There were certainly exceptions â€" Pullman would paint cars to a requested color, particularly for name trains, or as in the case of the C&O George Washington, would paint the name of the train on the letter board instead of â€œPullmanâ€�. It should be noted that before the divestiture, in general, Pullman owned cars with sleeper accommodations with railroads owning coaches, diners, and head end cars. 

The C&O transition is not atypical. After WWII C&O placed a large order for passenger equipment to replace the aging heavyweight fleet. The order included sleeping cars, diners, and coaches, lounges, and head end cars. However, before delivery began, it became apparent to C&O management that the expected post war passenger traffic was not going to materialize and much of the order was cancelled and many of the cars were sold before delivery. Part of the cutback was in diners and head end cars. The paint scheme for the new cars was blue, gray and yellow. Older equipment, including coaches that would run on the locals were repainted in the new paint scheme. The new cars were delivered in mid 1950. Almost coincident with the new car delivery, C&O took delivery of their first diesels â€" E-8s to power their mainline passenger trains. They initially operated in a fixed rotation. Branch line trains continued to be steam powered until the branches were dieselized. F units and then Geeps were used after steam was retired. 

With the exception of one train â€" the Chessie, which did not last long, none of C&O trains were streamliners. As others have pointed out, many railroads, even on their lightweight cars, favored paint over the stainless steel look. As you postulated, first generation passenger diesels were painted to match or complement the color of the rolling stock. 

Net, yes you can run silver steam liners with E or F units, or run Fs or FAs with heavyweights and be â€œcorrectâ€�, but hey, it is your railroad, so run what you like â€" I do. 

Mike


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 25 Oct 2009 01:24 PM 
Jerry I think it really depends on the specific railroad. 

Heavy weights were used by some railroads long after the streamliners came along 

Here is a picture of a B&O passenger train dated 1964 with what looks like a heavyweight passenger car in tow.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewpho...mp;nseq=48

Randy 


Hi Randy,

That is funny because it was a photo very much like the one in your link that prompted this topic. It too was a B&O and when I saw it I thought the B&O diesel looked a lot better pulling those heavyweights than it does pulling silver streamliners.

Jerry


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

THIS came first: 








About 1925 

Streamliners, both steam and diesel, didnt follow until the early 1930's as part of the Art Deco movement, the UP M-10000 being the first real attempt at streamlining quickly followed by the more successfull CB&Q Pioner Zephyr, steam streamlining was a kneejerk reaction to their success.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I appreciate everyone's comments.

What had started me thinking this way (mixing diesels and heavyweights) was at the HAGRS where St. Aubin's was selling a UP E8 along with a consist of UP Heavyweights.

At first I did not notice but when I did I found that I liked the look of it.

Previously I have used UP FA/B-1's with UP Streamliners (all yellow) and pulled the UP yellow Heavyweights with a black Mikado. I had a B&O F-1 ABBA but no B&O Streamliners - only B&O Heavyweights which I was pulling with a black B&O Mikado.

I have now changed the B&O Mikado to Cotton Belt to pull a Cotton Belt freight train and instead will use the B&O Heavyweights with the B&O F-1 ABBA.

Being prototypically accurate is not extremely important to me but when I can be prototypical without significant effort and expense I do make some effort to do so.

Sometimes it just happens that whatever I may be reading triggers a response that involves the layouts.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, Railroads often used whatever cars were avalaible, I've seen pics of the ultra-chic streamliner "Super Chief" with heavyweights mixed in with the chic streamliner cars so I think your OK mixing 'em up


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## LogSkidder01 (Jul 30, 2009)

The Tennessean, Southerns Memphis to Washington D.C. Class 1 train, began running in May of 1941. The train was pulled between Memphis and Bristol, TN by E6 AB sets specifically painted for the Tennessean. Between Bristol and Monroe, VA the train was pulled by N&W Steamlined J's. Between Monroe, VA and Washington, D. C. the trains was pulled by Southerns Tennessean labeled Streamlined Pacific 1380. The Pullman-Standard train sets were supposed to consist of all Pullman Standard corrugated stainless steal cars; however, due to the war buildup, updated silver painted Heavyweight sleepers were used. These "steamlined" heavyweights continued in service into the '50s. As passenger traffic waned in the '50s, N&W cars were sometimes substituted for the run between Bristol and D.C. In the final days of service in 1964, the train consisted mostly of head end cars and often only pulled one coach.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

This is where the benefit of MLS really shines. Since I have no personal recollection of those passenger trains and naturally all of the 
"official" photos show perfectly matched trains, it takes information from those who know how things really were to inform those of us who don't know.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually, they came together. The "lightweight" coaches that characterized early streamliners were developed to be pulled in dedicated consists, sometimes articulated, by a single dedicated diesel locomotive. UP's M10000 was an example, the Burlington Zephyr another. 

The trains were successful, but the railroads recognized the need for cars that could be mixed and matched for the particular run. The streamliner construction methods used by BUDD were well suited to newer consists. 

Diesel locomotives also got bigger from those initial beasts, hence the E1 and it's follow ons.


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## stanman (Jan 4, 2008)

While in college in Cincinnati, I commuted from my home town on N&W's Powhatan Arrow in the 1950s. It was beautifully decorated streamlined train. I can still imagine the way it looked - and felt - as it rounded the bend into the station...


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## Greg Vocks (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, this page shows not only pictures of H.W.s and streamliners together, but also trainlists from 1958 with such mixes. 
http://wabash-railroad.com/px3-psgr.htm


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## LogSkidder01 (Jul 30, 2009)

OK. For a mixed consist how about the L&N Pan American in 1967 with an E6 on the front MUed with an E8A pulling a string of heavyweight head end cars. 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=216508&nseq=340 

Following the the heavyweight freight / baggage cars is at least one smooth sided lightweight, a couple of corrugated lightweights and a rebuilt heavyweight on the tail end. 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=216509&nseq=339 

Note again that this was 1967. E6 773 (originally numbered 453B) was built in June of 1942 and retired in 1968. A good 26 year run. The heavyweights were probably built in the 20's and 30's.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Once again it proves that an example of just about anything can be found on the real railroads if you know where to look for it or who to ask.

Thanks to everyone.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I am finally getting close to putting Aristo Revolutions in my B&O F1-ABBA's and they will be pulling Aristo Heavyweights. They should look good together.

Jerry


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Does anyone know who was the first rail road to buy a Diesel?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

John it was the same engine I posted above and it was for the Central of New Jersey or CNJ, the engine still exists at the B&O Rail Museum.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Central Rail Road of New Jersey got number 1000 in 1925. It was an unremarkable box cab, but it was the first and lives on. It was a combination of Alco, GE and Ingersoll-Rand. Shortly after, B&O #1 appeared, a similar loco.


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