# best DCC, Sound, and Pulsed Smoke for the money?



## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

OK starting a brand new indoor F Scale layout with a brand new roster of locos so I would entertain some educated suggestions for DCC Control, Full Feature Sound and Pulsed Smoke Units, that give the most bang for the buck without sacrificing quality and durability. New layout will be basically a point to point operation single track main line with passing sidings in an area of 32 x 18 with multi level track. There will be several industries and enough switching operations to make it interesting, and a sea port at one end of the line. Here's my roster of locos I would like to equip them all with the same systems: All are Bachmann F Scale (1:20.3) : (2) 2-8-0 Connies, (1 ) 2-4-4 Forney, (1) 2 Truck Shay, (1) 2-6-0 Mogul, (1) 0-4-0 Porter Side Tank. (1) 0-4-0 Porter Saddle Tank, (1) 0-4-0 Gas Davenport. I have been reading and reading the advertisements and write ups on the net but until one actually sees and hears the products in operation and talks to those who have actually installed them there is still a sea of confusion regarding actual performance and installation procedures, I plan to install all myself. Any suggestions and guidance would be greatly appreciated.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't know of many choices with pulsed smoke besides Zimo and Massoth. Looking forward to trying a new QSI.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

What mike said--as far as I know, your only options at this moment are Zimo and Massoth.

But ESU's new LoksoundXL 4.0 can drive a pulsed smoke generator, and it's supposedly in the hands of ESU's american distributors, though I haven't seen it for sale yet. I've been using ESU's LoksoundXL v. 3.5 (which does not drive a smoke unit), and have been very impressed. The XL 4.0 may be available at this moment but I haven't seen it yet

Also as mentioned, QSI's new titan is supposed to be able to drive a pulsed smoke generator. But it's been promised for nearly two years and has yet to appear. I was a big fan of QSI when they had actual decoders to sell and I'm looking forward to the new Titans actually apearing


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Also I'd add that QSI has the best (in the sense of the most specific to US protoypes) sound library.
You can get a non-sound decoder and add a Phoenix sound card, which has excellent quality US-specific sounds but no motor control. Phoenix is not my favorite but a lot of people really like them


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If the Zimo and other European decoders had an extensive library, I would have paid the extra bucks and gone with them, but they have very few US recordings... and I seem to spend a lot of time getting just a good whistle and chuff... 

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

For sound alone, I am one that finds Phoenix hard to beat. The combination boards are a better value.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

One has to be a little bit careful when considering Phoenix. 
TheirDCC sound decoder doesn't always play well with DCC motor decoders - there have been several discussions on this in various forums. 
Basically, the DCC motor decoder works fine by itself, the DCC sound decoder works fine by itself, but if one combines the two in the same loco, one can no longer trigger the Phoenix sounds like bell or whistle if the loco is moving. 
If the loco is stopped the Phoenix sound works but not if the loco is moving and the problem only happens if a DCC motor decoder was also installed. 
I think the motor decoder was Digitrax, but I'm not sure - I would have to dig up these old threads. 

Nobody ever figured out what the problem was. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, when you say "the best for the money" I interpret that as "value", i.e. the best price/performance ratio. 

In DCC, it is definitely not Phoenix, since it is sound only and expensive. 

The best price/performance ratio is/was QSI, at about $147 for a combination motor/sound decoder. 

Next best, in my opinion is the Zimo, at about $190 street price, tons of features, but weak sound library. 

Then I would say ESU or Massoth, now you are still with a limited sound library and more cost and less support. 

There's lots of facts and information to go with this, but this should probably be your shopping list. 


Regards, Greg


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

Define weak? Secondly define sound library? Price?

Let's start with that later (Sound Library):
Is it a sound library if you for example use generic electric motor sounds and pretend it is a Swiss Ge 4/4 I or Ge 4/4 II? IS it a sound library if you take generic steam sound and slap a different bell or whistle and voila you claim it is a different engine? Probably not. Therefore from most libraries you have to discount their offering.

Weak Library?
You should mistake Massoth with ZIMO (Massoth the last time I checked had 8 American sounds and most of them sounded like the longtime available sounds that were put into LGB engines)

Zimo offers 185[/b] sounds from engines around the world with 35[/b] sounds from the US (18 steam, 1 electro, 16 Diesel). Let's see QSI has 23 prime movers and 4 Prime Chuffs. I don't even want to go into the question how many of the old Prime Movers have been actually recorded or are studio modifcations. In accordance to my analysis there are about 12-13 current PrimeMovers that are on active duty. All of Zimo's sound are hardcore recorded and studio worked up. 

Price?
Actually there is no QSI decoder on the market and the old List price of the Magnum was not $148 but close to $180. The price for the G-scale decoders of ZIMO start as low as $178 (today) but the new upcoming MX696 will be at $159. And those are MSRP.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Axel, I'll re-review your sound library, and draw the comparisons. 

Also, the QSI sounds are all free, many "good" sounds on the Zimo site are extra cost. 

I'm also only considering American sounds, if I was considering European or other sounds I would not have made this comment. 

In addition, let's keep to the "street" price on the decoders, the list prices are baloney... Street price was about $147 on the QSI, and I have bought several for less from dealers. The equivalent Zimo was $190 from you last time I checked. If the new 696 WITH all the bells and whistles is $160, then GREAT! 

The QSI still had (and will have more) more sound "tweaks" than the Zimo, like rod clank, and easier to adjust the sounds and I'm not just talking volume. 

But, I will need another top of the line Zimo really soon, so maybe I will change my mind.. 

The only real thing holding me back is the list of American sounds, it's still poor. All the steamers, while they have different names, sound like a K27 to me. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

The ESU XL 3.5's can be had for $180. Not sure what the new XL 4.0 will go for. 

ESU has a wide range of sounds which are appropriate to US locos, but not based on actual prototypes. For example, QSI has the sound of a PRR banshee whistle, appropriate to PRR freight locos. ESU does not. The fact the Zimo wanted to charge me extra to use certain sounds, $35 on top of the price of the decoder, is one of the things that led me to try ESU, which has ) in the 3.5 version) less features than Zimo.

I used to regularly get QSI decoders for under $150, when they actually existed! Looking at the state of the LS sound decoder market led me to ESU as having the best combination of price/value.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By jaug on 08 May 2012 02:16 PM 
OK starting a brand new indoor F Scale layout with a brand new roster of locos so I would entertain some educated suggestions for DCC Control, Full Feature Sound and Pulsed Smoke Units, that give the most bang for the buck without sacrificing quality and durability. 

Massoth for DCC, Massoth for pulsed smoke generators, Massoth for sound decoders but limited availablity of America sound options.

Mohammed
www.massothusa.com


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## adelmo (Jan 2, 2008)

For G DCC power and US sounds my combination decoder choice would be ESU and Zimo. I believe ESU has a greater sound offering. 

QSI is not available and Massoth very limited US sounds available as mentioned by a dealer. 

Pulsed smoke units are available from a number of sources but I have no experience with these. 

Alan


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 May 2012 07:19 AM 
Well, when you say "the best for the money" I interpret that as "value", i.e. the best price/performance ratio. 
Then I would say ESU or Massoth, now you are still with a limited sound library and more cost and less support. 

Regards, Greg 



Greg: I do not know what you mean but less support, but if you mean customer service and technical support than you are absolutely mistaken. Massoth and I as a Massoth USA dealer offer customer service and technical support that is *second to none *and I am absolutely certain that every single one of my customers would attest to that. I provide customer service and technical support for all Massoth products to everyone who contacts me regardless of whether or not they bought the product from me or someone else. 
Mohammed

http://www.allaboutlgb.com/
http://www.massothusa.com/


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg:

Unfortunately I have to disagree in several aspects. 

1. SoundDesign sounds - - none are sounding similar. Why don't you go to ZIMO's website and listen to Heisler, Logging Mallet 2-6-6-2, Mogul, and Unitah 2-6-6-2 and tell me if any of them sound like the other? If so, I recommend an ENT doctor









2. 35 American sounds is nothing to sneeze at. I prefer carefully crafted sounds that actually match a real model, over a sound file claiming it is xyz engine. There is quite an amount of work that goes into a proper project, and that includes the adjustment of CVs that influence the driving characteristics of the engine to be be in perfect tuning to simulated prototypical behavior. Heinz Daeppen from Sound Design works days and days to adjust sound with driving behavior. SoundDesign's philosophy is Hookup and Play (and with the upcoming MX697 even Plug and Play for all NMRA standardized engines). It is nice to think you can drag and drop sounds for a mix and match project, and then have the consumer do all the driving adjustments and potentially "destroy" the quality of the project altogether. I give you one example. The sound designer may have coded a break sound into the project but if you change the break parameters you can make it disappear completely or have the brake squeal finish while the engine is still running.

3. It only speaks for the quality of a product of the street price is equals to MSRP. And as you well know to 1st class member of MLS pays actually MSRP because of the MLS discounts. The new MX696 is a physically rescaled PCB with only one difference 4/10 A load capacity, which still exceeds the original MX690's 3/5A. You personally opted for the then top of the line decoder with extra voltage3 regulation output and more function outputs, features that exceeded QSI's offering in the first place. More features, more $. One of the better features are the adjustability of motor behavior that enabled you to run your K27, something that the QSI didn't do very well









4. Rod clank are is a function of the sound projects and all Sound Design for pay sounds have rod clank. And sound adjustments are as easy as 1,2,3 - it just too unfortunate that you own an NCE system where it is more complicated than it should be to address higher CV values, or the sound adjusted in POM mode doesn't work. There are over 100 sound adjustment CVs that allow you to control sounds, even in encoded projects. And ZIMO's input mapping that allows you to completely reassign functions from any function to any function still needs to be matched.


And now to our special friend Mohamed (whom we all love so much







)
Massoth DCC being the best - oh my God on which planet are you living







, but you are more than welcome to give us insight with a feature by feature comparison between QSI, ESU, ZIMO and the world leader in DCC Massoth. Maybe we can understand where you are coming from.

Massoth has the best pulsed smoke unit.
So let's shed a little bit of light onto it. In order to give chuff synchronized (or load synchronized) smoke, you need to control the fan and for more realistic operation vary the power on the smoke unit as well. Massoth's pulsed smoke unit uses electronics in the smoke unit to have the effects, rather than have the decoder itself control the effects. One of the downsides of separating the logic between the decoder and the smoke control is limited influence on the synchronization behavior including the sound project's influence on the smoke. Second being the price. Why replicate a DCC interface and control if you can have this in the decoder. Oh I know the old generation Massoth decoders didn't have a microcode room to make this happen. Other than that, your unit uses a heating resistor and a fan, so does everybody. So why is Massoth the world leader in pulsed smoke?

Massoth the best Sound:
Really







- so you guys are better than Phoenix, QSI, and ZIMO. Based on what?

Customer Service and Support second to none
Are you referring to your other Massoth competitors or are you referring to the rest of the industry? If you think you are on-top of the rest of the industry, then RLD hobbies, Onlytrains, and Reindeer-Pass ..... just to name a few are not in your evaluation group.

But I give you that, you have an unbelievable sense of greatness and, theoratically, I would love to smoke the same stuff you smoke







.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 12 May 2012 07:04 AM 
And now to our special friend Mohamed (whom we all love so much







)
Massoth DCC being the best - oh my God on which planet are you living







, but you are more than welcome to give us insight with a feature by feature comparison between QSI, ESU, ZIMO and the world leader in DCC Massoth. Maybe we can understand where you are coming from.

Massoth has the best pulsed smoke unit.
So let's shed a little bit of light onto it. In order to give chuff synchronized (or load synchronized) smoke, you need to control the fan and for more realistic operation vary the power on the smoke unit as well. Massoth's pulsed smoke unit uses electronics in the smoke unit to have the effects, rather than have the decoder itself control the effects. One of the downsides of separating the logic between the decoder and the smoke control is limited influence on the synchronization behavior including the sound project's influence on the smoke. Second being the price. Why replicate a DCC interface and control if you can have this in the decoder. Oh I know the old generation Massoth decoders didn't have a microcode room to make this happen. Other than that, your unit uses a heating resistor and a fan, so does everybody. So why is Massoth the world leader in pulsed smoke?

Massoth the best Sound:
Really







- so you guys are better than Phoenix, QSI, and ZIMO. Based on what?

Customer Service and Support second to none
Are you referring to your other Massoth competitors or are you referring to the rest of the industry? If you think you are on-top of the rest of the industry, then RLD hobbies, Onlytrains, and Reindeer-Pass ..... just to name a few are not in your evaluation group.

But I give you that, you have an unbelievable sense of greatness and, theoratically, I would love to smoke the same stuff you smoke







. 


Axel: You need to stop smoking whatever it is you are already smoking !!! 

Mohammed


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Jaug - 

Just in case you're wondering what is going on, both Mohammed and Axel are dealers that sell competing products, Massoth and Zimo respectively, so of course the product each one of them sells is the absolute best. 

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I am going to do a comparison chart, and will allow the parties involved to do factual reviews, but this seems like a great time to substantiate this information. Maybe I have not fully explored the Massoth, ESU and Zimo sound libraries. 

Greg


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a reminder that a present, QSI does make a large scale card that can drive a pulsed smoke generator but will when the new Titan comes out, whenever that is. ESU's v. 3.5 decoders do not have this feature either, but the new XL 4.0 _does_ have it, and it is supposedly on the shelves of the US distributor. I have not tried it and have not seen it for sale in the US yet.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

We have "Defence Lawyers" for Massoth and Zimo, who is going to play that role for ESU and later QSI? 

And are we including combinations of Large Scale motor decoder with SUSI sound modules? 
Functionally these would be equivalent to the combined motor/sound decoders. 

Knut 

PS: Compiling a functional capability comparison chart is pretty straight forward and certainly useful, but how do we handle more subjective parameters, like the quality of the sound file for instance. 
For sound decoders, that is a important criteria when one makes the choice.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't sell QSI, nor do I make any money from them, all my consulting is free, but I'm pretty familiar with the features. 

I want the most for my money too, and will buy what is best for me, no matter what the brand. 

I'm not interested in the dual board solution, because it the cost is too high, and fails my "most for the money" test. 

Also they are not functionally the same, because not all information from the processor is sent over the slow SUSI interface to the other board. In combination decoders, all information is available to the system since there is only one processor and one bank of ram. 

(I use the word slow because SUSI is slow in comparison to the CPU bus) 

I'm sure that Lownote and I can compile objective ESU information too. 

And since it's a forum, everyone is free to contribute. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 May 2012 11:59 AM 
I don't sell QSI, nor do I make any money from them, all my consulting is free, but I'm pretty familiar with the features. 

I want the most for my money too, and will buy what is best for me, no matter what the brand. 

I'm not interested in the dual board solution, because it the cost is too high, and fails my "most for the money" test. 

Also they are not functionally the same, because not all information from the processor is sent over the slow SUSI interface to the other board. In combination decoders, all information is available to the system since there is only one processor and one bank of ram. 

(I use the word slow because SUSI is slow in comparison to the CPU bus) 

I'm sure that Lownote and I can compile objective ESU information too. 

And since it's a forum, everyone is free to contribute. 

Greg 
Greg,

Are you replying to my post or just in general?
Not sure why you chose to post that QSI comment - are people suggesting that you have some financial gain by recommending QSI?

I assume this comparison will be a bit more than just comparing specs. 


As to a DCC decoder/SUSI sound module combination - That is certainly competitive if not less expensive that a combined motor/sound decoder and is certainly much more flexible.
The latest DLEV3 DCC 2/5 amp motor decoder is 45 Euros List, a microX3 sound module is 69 Euros List, total of 114 Euros List less VAT brings it to 95.80 Euros or $US 124 List.
And there are less expensive DCC decoders and less expensive sound modules - all depends what capabilities one is looking for.


Dietz has been in the model train "Sound business" longer than any of the other DCC manufacturers but a large portion of the original sounds he offers are non-North American prototypes.
His sound library however is pretty extensive:
http://www.d-i-e-t-z.de/2_8.htm

It's just something I think mls members should be aware of. 


Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Replying in general, and yes, I have been accused here on the forum by several individuals of receiving financial gain and having vested interests. 

Even by people who clearly have received free merchandise from manufacturers, and coincidentally have given the product glowing reviews. 

I would like to do a straight up specs, and more importantly for now to me, comparision of the sound files available. 

I surely know about Dietz, his was the product that fired my desire to have sounds linked to actual load on the loco, saw my first example many years ago by Debbie Ames at a train show, HO scale, and Lenz decoder,SUSI interface, DIETZ sound unit. 

Ever since I have heard this additional dimension of realism, it's been a prerequisite for me, so you really don't need to tell me about that part of history. 

But, you did not address the functionality part, which to me, is a minimum set of requirements. 

As to price, you give a very low cost example ,but the DLEV3, is a 2 amp continuous decoder? That's just not comparable to the large scale decoders in general. We have to keep apples to apples, keep the decoders over 3 amps continuous. (I have a combination motor/sound decoder from Zimo, and you can get one from ESU for significantly under $100 if you start trying to bring in HO-level decoders) 


Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

The DLEV3 is a 2 amp continuous, 5 amp peak decoder; it's Large Scale decoder, not HO-Level. 
It has a ton of features that some of the suggested motor/sound decoders don't have. 
I just picked this one as an example since it's the most recent one that has been released by Dietz 

But as you know, any DCC decoder with a SUSI interface can be used with any SUSI sound module, so one can "mix and match" which is not possible with the integrated motor/sound decoders. 

2 amp continuous is more than enough for today's single motor Large Scale locos, for a few Euros more there is also a Dietz 3 amp continuous DCC decoder with SUSI that is good for typical two-motor Large Scale locos or DCC decoders by other manufacturers that include SUSI. 

When we did a DCC decoder comparison for Large Scale ten years or so ago, we chose a current rating of 1.5 amp continuous and a voltage rating of 24 volts or more as the criteria of which decoders to include as suitable for Large Scale. 
Maybe including those goes beyond the scope of what you are thinking of, I just don't want people to get the idea that if one wants a Large Scale DCC decoder with sound capability, there are only the four integrated motor/sound decoder choices mentioned earlier. 

Regards, 
Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I do not consider a 2 amp continuous decoder appropriate for most of the large scale out there. If LGB and small rail trucks were the only large scale existant, maybe I could accept that. 

The polyfuses on Aristo equipment are 3 amps and they can trip under heavy loads. USAT locos can draw more as well as the pittman motors used in Bachmann and Accucraft. 

You can call them large scale, I won't, there's just too many locos out there that they would not work in. 

Yes you can hook SUSI together of all devices, but that has nothing to do with what data is being exchanged, and again, it looks like the least common denominator, just speed and bemf information. 

Yeah, a good idea never developed, and now passed by because of economics. Make something like a Massoth, ESU, Zimo, or QSI in a 2 board set with a susi interface between them, they would ALL cost more to make. 

Nope, the idea is just going nowhere, cpu's are getting cheaper, and it just does not float anymore. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 13 May 2012 11:58 PM 
I do not consider a 2 amp continuous decoder appropriate for most of the large scale out there. If LGB and small rail trucks were the only large scale existant, maybe I could accept that.


I take it you forgot what you posted just a few days ago in this very section of the forum:


1. There is a wide range of power used by large scale locos, from LGB and small speeders and rail trucks to large locos that run pittman motors. Figure under an amp to an amp for LGB, and maybe 1.5 to 2 amps for larger locos under load. So your guess is good for the best case.

And as to-
>>> Make something like a Massoth, ESU, Zimo, or QSI in a 2 board set with a susi interface between them, they would ALL cost more to make. 

You're mixing up cost and price

>>>Yes you can hook SUSI together of all devices, but that has nothing to do with what data is being exchanged, and again, it looks like the least common denominator, just speed and bemf information.

In the end it's the functionality that counts and that would be clearly shown in the comparison.
The idea is to provide the facts so people can make an intelligent choice, not to make the choice for them.

Knut


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## jaug (Oct 18, 2011)

Well I have been absent from MLS for several days, just catching up on my post and it seems I opened the proverbial hornets nest with my quest for information. I appreciate all of the learned comments and will definitely look into all of the suggested items. I would like to offer this as my contribution to the discussion: I am in this hobby for enjoyment, relaxation and to quell my creative desires, It is my opinion that we are all into Model Railroading for basically the same reasons. But I think there is another reason, it give us a chance to control our world, the scale world of our layouts that is. In this world all is as it should be, or at least, as we believe it should be or was, in a happier time. So why not relax a bit and don't take things so serious, there is nothing to prove by offering information based on your experiences as a different opinion, that's why it's called an "opinion" it's yours. I leave with a quote from the Penguin Leader to his group in the Cartoon Movie "Madagascar", that I watched with my Grand Daughter, when they found themselves in an awkward situation ........."Just Smile and Wave Guys" Thanks again for the info it was very helpful.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut, both statements, are true and valid... read a bit more carefully please, I do not consider a 2 amp continuous decoder appropriate for MOST of the large scale out there. In general, I cannot agree to call a 2 amps decoder a "G Scale decoder"... in the main case, it is inappropriate.... that said, my other statement is valid: '1. There is a wide range of power used by large scale locos, from LGB and small speeders and rail trucks to large locos that run pittman motors. Figure under an amp to an amp for LGB, and maybe 1.5 to 2 amps for larger locos under load. So your guess is good for the best case." 

That statement is also true, but you are missing the obvious... a motor that draws 2 amps MOST of the time should not be controlled with a decoder whose CONTINUOUS rating is 2 amps. 

You NEVER run a decoder at it's maximum continuous rating all the time. You need to rate things conservatively to have reliability. The first statement is about the capability of the decoder, the second statement is about the AVERAGE current draw of various motors. 

Also, further I'm not mixing cost and price, I am addressing BOTH issues that have been brought up in your suggesting a dual board combination.... and yes the limitation in the data transmitted on the SUSI interface will limit the capability. 

Taking price, size, and performance into account, 2 board solutions with a SUSI interface are inferior to the single board solutions provided, my opinion, and a "dying solution"... certainly not where the hobby is headed. 

But, I think I will include the information in my research just to help put these deficits into perspective. 


Regards, Greg


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

You certainly did open a hornets' nest, but what an entertaining one. I've enjoyed the um..... repartee', shall we call it, and find great amusement in the increasingly heated exchanges. The arguments on Massoth vs Zimo vs ESU on this forum sound EXACTLY like the ones on arboristsite.com on chainsaws, e.g. Stihl vs. Husqvarna vs. Echo 

But you said it best: I'm in this hobby for enjoyment, relaxation, and ... creative outlet." Amen to that.

For me personally, what I'm looking for is: Good documentation, technical manuals, user manuals, and most importantly: Support after purchase. And I mean GOOD support. Really, really good support. For which I would gladly pay. So far I haven't found the kind of stellar support that I'm looking for but that's ok. I'm still having fun.

BTW - to all the folks who have offered opinions so far.... what about someone like me who wants to hear ONLY European steam sounds? No U.S. library needed. Who wins out for someone like me? Zimo? Massoth? ESU? Keep in mind that I'd like to have good support. Pulsed steam would be nice.

Regards,
Tom

" The cost of computer ownership is just beginning when you pay for it at the store."
( The same is somewhat true of buying a sound decoder.)


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Whichever system you choose, do not forget that there are yahoo support groups for them. 
I have found some very useful information in these groups.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By tommyheadleycox on 16 May 2012 09:44 PM 

For me personally, what I'm looking for is: Good documentation, technical manuals, user manuals, and most importantly: Support after purchase. And I mean GOOD support. Really, really good support. For which I would gladly pay. So far I haven't found the kind of stellar support that I'm looking for but that's ok. I'm still having fun.



Tom:

If you were to visit either my site or the massoth site, you will discover that we offer everything you are asking for and more: good documentation, accessible users' manuals, and responsive technical support. 
As a Massoth dealer, I provide free pre- and post purchase support that is second to none.

Posted By tommyheadleycox on 16 May 2012 09:44 PM 

BTW - to all the folks who have offered opinions so far.... what about someone like me who wants to hear ONLY European steam sounds? No U.S. library needed. Who wins out for someone like me? Zimo? Massoth? ESU? Keep in mind that I'd like to have good support. Pulsed steam would be nice.

Tom:

We also have a large collection of European steam sounds and pulsed smoke generators to boot. 
Please take a serious look at what we have to offer. 


Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com 
http://www.massothusa.com


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 May 2012 07:31 AM 
Knut, both statements, are true and valid... read a bit more carefully please, I do not consider a 2 amp continuous decoder appropriate for MOST of the large scale out there. In general, I cannot agree to call a 2 amps decoder a "G Scale decoder"... in the main case, it is inappropriate.... that said, my other statement is valid: '1. There is a wide range of power used by large scale locos, from LGB and small speeders and rail trucks to large locos that run pittman motors. Figure under an amp to an amp for LGB, and maybe 1.5 to 2 amps for larger locos under load. So your guess is good for the best case." 

That statement is also true, but you are missing the obvious... a motor that draws 2 amps MOST of the time should not be controlled with a decoder whose CONTINUOUS rating is 2 amps. 

You NEVER run a decoder at it's maximum continuous rating all the time. You need to rate things conservatively to have reliability. The first statement is about the capability of the decoder, the second statement is about the AVERAGE current draw of various motors. 

Also, further I'm not mixing cost and price, I am addressing BOTH issues that have been brought up in your suggesting a dual board combination.... and yes the limitation in the data transmitted on the SUSI interface will limit the capability. 

Taking price, size, and performance into account, 2 board solutions with a SUSI interface are inferior to the single board solutions provided, my opinion, and a "dying solution"... certainly not where the hobby is headed. 

But, I think I will include the information in my research just to help put these deficits into perspective. 


Regards, Greg 
All right Greg, let's not discuss this any further.
I found that the current rating of Large Scale decoders is the most incorrectly quoted manufacturer spec anyway.

I remember a few years back when we had trouble with a European 3-amp decoder that wouldn't even handle a single motor LGB loco - after some discussion back and forth with the manufacturer it turned out that the 3 amp rating only applied up to a track voltage of 16 volts, for higher track voltages, the output current had to be derated rather drastically.


As to SUSI - I like the concept of being able to chose the motor decoder and sound decoder separately but still get them to interwork, gives me an option if the motor decoder feature I want/need is not provided with the integrated motor/sound decoders available, but you're right - SUSI isn't going anywhere, especially in North America, even though it is part of NMRA DCC now.

Have you started this exercise of comparing DCC sound-decoders yet? I just noticed that the ESU LokSound V4.0 manual is only available in German at this time - at least on the ESU web site.
That might hold up sales in the US - one definitely needs a good manual to go with any decoder.

Regards,

Knut


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

ESU's us rep claims they have them in the US--I heard that from someone else though


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I know that the dealers in Germany received both types of the ESU Loksound XL V4.0 decoders on May 2nd, so those decoders could well be in the US....but what about the documentation? 

I quickly scanned through the German documentation and I think in the end it will be pretty much a wash between the four main contenders - ESU, Massoth, QSI and Zimo (listed alphabetically) 
There will be some differences for sure which will make one more suitable than another for a specific application. 

The new ESU one has the buffer capacitor integrated on the board whereas the others don't I believe. That needs to be taken into consideration when comparing prices. 
The ESU one also uses a class "D" audio amp which I think is unique for that group of four. 
I can't really find any capability/function that the ESU decoder cannot provide but one of the others can - but the other way around...ESU offers RailCom Plus which none of the others provide, ESU also offers both ABC options, stop and slow, whereas some decoders with ABC only offer the "stop" option. 
The ESU decoder also has two loudspeaker outputs, however the audio is the same for both, not somehow split into high and low as for QSI. 

This comparison will be a real fun exercise.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Zimo uses class D, and also the QSI... they most likely all use class D to get more power w/o heat... 

The QSI is not split into high and low... where did that come from? You have a fader for each sound between speakers. 

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 May 2012 10:08 PM 
Zimo uses class D, and also the QSI... they most likely all use class D to get more power w/o heat... 

The QSI is not split into high and low... where did that come from? You have a fader for each sound between speakers. 

Greg 
I don't see any mention of a class D amplifier in any of the Zimo Large Scale decoder documentation, for the Large Scale QSI decoder, the documetion right now is pretty sketchy.

As to the high/low split - that comes out of the QSI documentation on the web which I highlighted in the list below.

I found that a bit strange as well since before that QSI kept emphasizing the "stereo" effect their new Large Scale decoder provides.

Not that stereo makes any more sense to me when it comes to loco sound.


Copied from
http://qsisolutions.com/news/12/titan-large-scale-051812.html
QSI news dated May 18, 2012 


Special Large Scale Features [*]Plug and Play Options: Aristo, Bachmann, USA Trains and Universal Generic options, the Magnums.[*]3 12 Pin Screw Terminal Connectors for easy installation in addition to standard Aristo pins.[*]Exclusive Patented Stereo Output or Mono too. U.S. Reissue Patent Number RE38,660.[*]4 Discrete Reed Switch Inputs[*]Smoke Fan Control, Programmable[*]Smoke Heater Control, Programmable[*]8-12 Additional Lighting Outputs, 14 Total[*]Lenz Super Cap Option for Dirty Track[*]5V and 18V Lighting Commons[*]System Reset by Jumper or Programming[*]Multiple Locomotive Configurations[*]Advanced Custom Sound Processor[*]Automatic Sound Features for DC/DCC[*]User Adjustable Pitch Shift, Locos with Same Sound Files will Sound Different.[*]64 Total Sound Channels[*]*Separation of Highs and Lows*[*]Hi Def Sound Quality[*]Super Smooth 1 SMPH Low Speed[*]Prototypical Braking[*]BEMF/RTC[*]6 Amp and 10 Amp Motor Drives[*]Wireless Ready Connection for GWire and AirWire™ Throttles[*]QSI “QUARK”: Advance Analog Remote Control Technology for DC Ops[*]2 Year Warranty [/list]


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## tommyheadleycox (Oct 15, 2010)

RE: Price and availability of Loksound XL 4.0. I called a dealer not far from me who advertises these on his website for $204.00. I called and asked him why he seems to be the only dealer in NA who can get them. But he insisted he could; he further said that ESU has stopped making XL v3.5. His web site: http://www.nancystrains.com/. The ESU Loksound XL v4.0 is the 4th item down. 

I was tempted to order a SUSI sound decoder for my Lenz maxi gold lok decoder. But I'd have to order it from the UK or Germany. Any problems and I'd be SOL. plus no support, no one to call. True it would be cheaper. But it's just too dicey. 

One note to all beginners on DCC out there: Be prepared to spend a lot of time on forums to get your thorny questions answered. All these forum members are very generous w their time and advice. All DCC dealers I've met and spoke with are nice guys, helpful, and really want to make the customer happy. But there's no way I'm going to hassle a dealer with my questions about CV's when he's got a store full of customers and a business to run. 

Tom


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

OK attempt number 4 (something is not working despite compatibility mode) in posting here









Let me make a few remarks:

1. SUSI is a limited interface solely designed to pass through F-keys, Motor speed, and programming. One additional parameter which is rather nebulous defined in the spec which is called load, but some of the options of content don't really seem to reflect load, and no way of telling if it them or the motor voltage that is reported. This is much more limiting then integrated decoders can report and work on, for a much better result. Also all combo drivers (DC/DCC, i.e. you are having DCC but carry the engine to the club or friends layouts that have only DC.) Integrated controller of the higher design can delay motor operation until a threshold voltage is reach, hence starting the sound without the engine moving, and without requiring a battery of any kind.

2.$50 decoders or what they are $50 decoders (actually come to think of it some of the higher priced once should be actually also only $50 decoders). I have spend countless hours to smooth the behavior of engines (despite their 128 speed step decoders) and have smooth acceleration and deceleration as I am used to. To no avail, because this wasn't in the decoders capabilities. Additional I know that most of them haven't taken the necessary precaution circuits that either prevent accidental damage through wrong installation, or short circuits on the track. If they don't have the protection you just shot the decoder "kaputt"







. It like with cars, a Yugo and a BMW, or VW get you all from point A to B, but how dead are you after a collision might be a different story.









3 Lastly class D, most of the readers probably ask what is that and why do I care? Class D is not some miracle sound chip with brings the symphony into the engine, but a technology designed to lower power consumption and hence heat generation. While I will look at the sound chips I am almost certain that this is what they use, since ZIMO's decoders no longer require heat dissipation. But because most people don't know why bother to bring it into the user guide.


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow it worked this time


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