# Body mounting couplers on an LBG 2018D Mogul?



## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Since my AMS coach couplers are a little higher than the LGB truck-mounted ones, I was wondering what anyone might recommend for replacing the tender's coupler with a body mounted one. There's a slot already there for it, so it seems. Would an Accucraft 1:20.3 couple look too out of place or too big for it? Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

I usually use Kaydee #831 couplers on my LGB rolling stock. They are truck mounted, but they have step up shanks so that they will mate with body mounted couplers. Since I don't run Accucraft and Bachmann cars (1:20.3) with my LGB engines, I had to go out this afternoon for a little research. I pulled two Accucraft passenger cars, coach and combine, and a Bachmann D&RGW long caboose. The combine and the caboose had wipers on the wheels for lighting. The mogul could barely make it around the layout. The wheels slipped badly, but to answer your question about the couplers the Kadee and Accucraft worked well together and did not separate on the dips in my track work. 

I have chosen to use truck mounted 831 on my LGB engines and cars because there is less surgery required. All you have to do is cut of the tab on the end of the truck tongue, rather than removing parts of the car body.

Here are some picture of the train and the couplers.



















Kadee #831 and Accucraft 











Kadee #831 and Bachmann.










These cars are much heavier that a typical LGB car. So that is why the engine wheels slipped on my slight grade. The LGB mogul is well known as a poor puller. For a number of years I had been putting about a 1/2 lb of lead fishing weights in the engine. After replacing an unknown, but significant, number of idler gears in the motors, I took out the lead. I now run shorter trains and haven't had to replace any gears.

Chuck


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

My mogul already needs a replacement traction band for its one wheel, if I can ever figure out where to find one. I guess that doesn't bode well for it pulling 2 AMS J&S coaches plus an AMS coach converted to a baggage car with a wooden kit. But maybe if I start it out slower than molasses in January... 

I'm guessing there's no simple way to upgrade it to a more powerful motor? At least until I can afford to upgrade it to something in keeping with the railroad yet strong enough to lug around all that weight. I'd hate to have to dismantle it all over again to add weight then touch up where I scrape the paint job off! 

Exactly how much surgery are we talking to body mount the couplers? I don't mind chiseling away with my X-Acto set and a couple mini wood chisels I have on hand (that badly need sharpened).


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By moonspenders on 28 May 2012 03:14 PM 
My mogul already needs a replacement traction band for its one wheel, if I can ever figure out where to find one. I guess that doesn't bode well for it pulling 2 AMS J&S coaches plus an AMS coach converted to a baggage car with a wooden kit. But maybe if I start it out slower than molasses in January... 

I'm guessing there's no simple way to upgrade it to a more powerful motor? At least until I can afford to upgrade it to something in keeping with the railroad yet strong enough to lug around all that weight. I'd hate to have to dismantle it all over again to add weight then touch up where I scrape the paint job off! 

Exactly how much surgery are we talking to body mount the couplers? I don't mind chiseling away with my X-Acto set and a couple mini wood chisels I have on hand (that badly need sharpened). 

The problem I have with my Moguls is not that they don't have a strong enough motor, but they don't have enough traction. One change I made was to convert my tender's power pickup axles to ball bearing wheels because the wiper pickups generate a lot of drag. That did improve things. 

Is your layout DCC or DC? We're gonna be converting to DCC, and my friend who's gonna do the conversion for us took apart a Mogul to look at how they're set up inside for when we do the conversion. One of the things we noticed was that the lead ballast that LGB puts in the locomotive is more concentrated over the front two axles instead of the rear one, which has the traction tire, because the Locomotives main circuit control board takes up that space. When we switch to DCC and remove that board, we're gonna move the weight towards the back so it's actually over the traction tires which will hopefully help.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

I haven't done the surgery, but my thought is that the coupler pocket that extends down from the end beam must go first. Then you will need to build a platform to hold the coupler assembly. I have been buying and running LGB since about 1980. Their value, what ever that is, is on keeping them as original as possible. That is why my surgery is always minimal.


Train-Li a sponsor here on MLS has a lot of LGB parts and accessories. Try him. If he doesn't have the traction tires he might know where to get them. He has always been very helpful to me.


Chuck 


TJH: I added about a half a pound of lead to the cab. That evened out the balance of the loco and it pulled better until the gears gave out. That is when I started to replace the idler gears.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Hello Ken: 

We do have traction tires for LGB locomotives including those that fit the Mogul (37.5mm wheels) and we stock many other common maintenance parts. 

Mohammed 
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Do you think putting a traction band around one of the front drive wheels might improve traction, TJH? I've thought about adding two new ones--one on either side--but worry it would cut down on current too much. I've only ever worked with DC power. One of these days, I'd like to try DCC, but right now I want to have the passenger train finished how I want it by fall in case I get to display it on the current scenic railroad running on its tracks. Too many wonderful ideas, nowhere ear enough money in the bank to tackle all of it. 

So, it'd require building something to attach the coupler? They made it look too simple by putting a coupler slot on the tender body, I guess! If keeping LGBs pristine keeps their value, than I'm already damned. I bought the red and green mogul used on ebay for just a couple hundred dollars--didn't even think it came with a box it was so cheap, but was surprised it did--and I think my repainting the entire thing black sort of killed any remaining value. It needed some TLC, but ran well and needed the new traction tire. It was either that or spend $700 on a black LGB mogul and still alter it with a bit of paint here and there. I chose the cheapest option, which is my same hope when it comes to bashing an AMS coach and converting it into a baggage car. Not paying full price is ideal. 

Thanks for the heads up; I'll check out his site and bookmark it for later this week. You did give me another idea, though... the boiler in the cab is hollow, so I could add weight to that. Even though that means disassemblinng the entire loco all over again. *groan*


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Thanks, Mohammed. I'll check out your site too!


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Just found this on a Disney-related forum: 

"I have found that the pulling power of an LGB mogul depends on when it was made. The very first generation 2018D moguls like the one that I have, only had one traction tire during their very first year of production. Later production runs of the 2018D up through today's LGB moguls have two traction tires. It doesn't seem like one extra traction tire would make that much of a difference in the locomotive's pulling power, but I have found that in fact it does." 

I guess putting two on instead of the one is a good idea then.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

You can't just add a traction tire to any of the drivers. The drive wheels for the traction tire are notched to accept the tire. If the notch isn't there, there is nothing to hold the tire on the tread and it will slip off.

Chuck

Note added: I just checked 3 of my 5 LGB moguls and none of them have 2 traction tires. They represent several generations of the mogul as they have different sound systems and not sound. I also have the original one like the one that you have. If I get a chance I'll take a picture of it. It had major surgery. It is black, with a straight stack and modern sand and steam domes. The tender has been converted to one that holds coal. I bought it when it first came out and wanted a more modern look so I did my first kit bash. Shortly after I finished it they came out with the C&S mogul that had the look I wanted.


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Curses, foiled again!


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Ken : 
I do not recommend putting a traction tire around a wheel that does not have a traction tire groove; I have seen a few wheels that were seriously damaged that way, and the damage is usually not limited to the wheel in question but to the wheel on the opposite side of the axle as well. Considering the cost and scarcity of wheels for LGB locomotives these days, you would be better off if you were to figure out a way to improve the weigh distribution. 

Chuck: I have seen a few that did stay and cause damage to both wheels on the axle. They sort of dig themselves in. 

Mohammed 
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

The last thing I need is to ruin the only loco I have at the moment. Point taken... I'll see about adjusting the weight location instead.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that the problem adding a tire to a non notched wheel is that you are adding to the diameter of the wheel. That means that the circumference of the wheel is now larger. This is going to put stress on all the other wheels as it wants to go "x" on one revolution and the others are going "y". 

I remember once a merit badge councilor commenting on some truck owners who thought they would save on tires if they used a smaller diameter tire in the dual set up on back of their trucks. The idea was that the second tire would be needed only under a heavy load. The problem is that it doesn't travel the same distance with each revolution. Therefore, excessive wear and tare occurred. 


I have no idea why I've remembered that from the mid 50's, but I have.

Chuck


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By chuck n on 28 May 2012 05:09 PM 
TJH: I added about a half a pound of lead to the cab. That evened out the balance of the loco and it pulled better until the gears gave out. That is when I started to replace the idler gears. 


Sounds like some out of character under engineering by LGB. My reference loco for pulling power is my LGB Forney. That little sucker easily out pulls any of my Moguls (I have 3), despite being a smaller engine and having only 4 drivers. Always attributed it to better weight distribution on the drivers. Anyone know if they were putting stronger gears in the Forney? How long did your gears last?

Moonspenders - I've got 3 running Moguls (a 2018, 23192, and a 2119), and one non running (2019S) and all have the traction tires only on the rear axle. If you're concerned about the gearing, while $$$, I'd suggest looking into the ball bearing wheels for any of the pick ups on the Moguls tender as well as the cars. They make a massive difference in the amount of drag when spread out over the cars in a train.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

TJH 

My two forneys are great pullers, along with the little 0-4-0 Stainz locos. I don't know what is wrong with the moguls, but they lack the pulling power of any of the other LGB engines. They look great, but just can't do the job.


Chuck


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The LGB mogul uses 46mm tires, not 36mm. 
36mm is for the Stainz. 

Easy way to tell is if the wheel is 46mm then it is about the width of 45mm track!!! 
36mm wheels are much smaller than G track width, and a Mikado is 55mm and much larger wheel than the 45mm track width.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

Here are a couple of pictures of my 2018D (formerly the Red and Green wood burner).

The domes are solid brass. That added a fair amount of weight. The stack is also brass. 


Chuck


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Dan: The wheels on Chuck mogul are as you say 46.5mm not 37.5nmm wheels. 

ken: we also have traction tires for 46.5mm wheels. 

Mohammed 
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Chuck: 

Did you fabricate the smoke stack? I have a customer that is looking for a replacement smoke stack for a Mogul. 

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Mohammed:

I got the stack and the domes from Caboose Hobbies in Denver. Probably in the late 1980s shortly after the mogul first came out. My suggestion would be to try Precision Scale and Ozark Miniatures.


Chuck


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chuck n on 28 May 2012 08:02 PM 
{snip}I don't know what is wrong with the moguls, but they lack the pulling power of any of the other LGB engines. They look great, but just can't do the job. {snip}


I would agree, Chuck. I might point to the larger diameter drivers. I think that has an effect on the pulling power. (just my thought though) I doublehead my C&S moguls and pull 7 cars all day on my layout. My favorite pulling locomotives are the Hartland Big John blocks and the LGB 0-4-0's with the powered tenders.... Both pull stumps and have the smaller diameter drivers...


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan:

The larger diameter on the mogul drive wheels is something that I thought about too. It may also be that the weight is distributed over 6 points of contact not four (eight if you count the pony truck).


Yes, double heading them does get the job done. 


Chuck


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a thread started last summer on the need or lack of for traction tires. There are a lot of good comments pro and con.


Part way down (July 15) in my post is a table that I made illustrating the pulling power of some of my engines.


traction tire discussion 

Chuck


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

Posted By chuck n on 29 May 2012 08:12 AM 
Mohammed:

I got the stack and the domes from Caboose Hobbies in Denver. Probably in the late 1980s shortly after the mogul first came out. My suggestion would be to try Precision Scale and Ozark Miniatures.


Chuck 



Thanks Chuck, I will pass-on the info.

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

Thanks for that chart, chuck. 1.5 Lbs. pulling power? Yikes. I think ball bearing wheels might be a required upgrade then! But I do love what you did with the 2018D. I never would've guessed it was once red and green! I may have to look into swapping out the smokestack too... the headlamp looks right, but I haven't seen any Valley Railway locos that had the wider stack on top, except for the 4-4-0. (Insert grumbling here about 1:20.3 scale 4-4-0 locos available in the current market that would look too puny compared to AMS coaches and not in proper proportion for the railroad I'm modeling.) 

Back to my original question, though, would an Accucraft knuckle coupler have any chance of working if it were body mounted to the 2018D tender? Or would its sheer size look absolutely ridiculous? Even if I could body mount the original LGB knuckle coupler, at least it would be at a better height compared to the AMS coach. I'm not overly concerned about reduction in turn radius, more interested in it looking properly.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Based on the fact that the Mogul is the lightest LGB listed on that chart, and the fact that LGB puts the ballast over the front (non tire equipped) axles, I'm not surpised it's the weakest puller. What I still find fascinating is that when you do things to increase traction, Chuck you're saying the gears can't handle it. I'll see how mine handle the load once we move that weight around. Luckily gear changes aren't the most difficult thing to do on a Mogul and it's only only one small section of our layout that will subject them to that level of strain. 

Ken, if you go to double head, as you can see on your 2018d, your second Mogul will need to have the coal burners pilot or the snow plow. the ones with the snow plow come from LGB with a knuckle coupler. The ones with the coal pilot (like the 2119D LG&B and the 2019S C&S) come with a dummy coupler that can be removed, and Kadee makes a replacement functional coupler that will fit there (it's a bit of a pain to get in). I had just checked prices for the 2019S on ebay and they were usually going for $300-400, and the 2119's I think usually go for $200-300. Dunno how many BB axles you're looking at getting, at but may be cheaper to go ahead and invest in a second Mogul and double head (which does look cool).


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## moonspenders (May 7, 2012)

I'll see how your results are with weight redistribution before I disassemble my mogul all over again. Not really looking forward to that after the hours I spent on painting and reassembling! When I eventually get to the point where I'm recreating the railroad in layout form, there shouldn't be any tight curves at all and only light grades (which is why they chose the Cuyahoga Valley with it's minimal slope and easy curves to navigate). Thankfully, to be historically accurate, the loco only ever pulled two coaches and a baggage car for passenger service. That means 12 wheels for all cars and 4 for the tender (if I want to go all the way). I've seen single axles for around $12 on ebay and pairs for $40-45. Might cost me as much as a used mogul just for that! Double-heading wouldn't really be accurate to the railroad, and I'd rather get a different style of engine for my next one, so for now I might sit on it for a while. I still have to buy the third coach for conversion, the kit to convert it to a baggage car, and see about making the station. I'm trying my best to pace myself so my wallet doesn't scream, but it's a challenge.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

I think that you could put an Accucraft coupler on the tender. The coupler pocket is held on with 2 screws (nut and bolt assembly). You have to drill a hole through the end beam and you will probably have to cut of the pseudo coupler pocket that hangs down. The AC couplers are large, but not as large as the LGB knuckles. Since they will be mating with an AC coupler on the passenger cars the size shouldn't matter.

I'm glad that you like what I did to the engine.

Shortly after I made all the modifications, LGB had a recall on the motor block and drive train. In addition to the exterior changes a machinist friend turned down the middle drive wheels to makethem blind drivers. The original block didn't navigate the tight curves (R! and R2) very well. Even with the blind center drivers the motor block gave up the ghost. So I sent the engine back for a replacement block and wheels. When it came back all of my added parts headlight, pilot, smokestack were in the box and "correct" items were in place. Needless to say I sent a very friendly (HA, HA) letter to LGB in San Diego.


TJH:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the LGB motor in the mogul is too powerful for the drive train. Putting in a more powerful motor, as suggested my someone, without added weight would make the problem worse. The engine already slips, more power would cause it to slip sooner. 

Chuck 


PS: These are the replacement Kadee couplers on the front of my 2018D.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By moonspenders on 29 May 2012 01:47 PM 
I'll see how your results are with weight redistribution before I disassemble my mogul all over again. Not really looking forward to that after the hours I spent on painting and reassembling! When I eventually get to the point where I'm recreating the railroad in layout form, there shouldn't be any tight curves at all and only light grades (which is why they chose the Cuyahoga Valley with it's minimal slope and easy curves to navigate). Thankfully, to be historically accurate, the loco only ever pulled two coaches and a baggage car for passenger service. That means 12 wheels for all cars and 4 for the tender (if I want to go all the way). I've seen single axles for around $12 on ebay and pairs for $40-45. Might cost me as much as a used mogul just for that! Double-heading wouldn't really be accurate to the railroad, and I'd rather get a different style of engine for my next one, so for now I might sit on it for a while. I still have to buy the third coach for conversion, the kit to convert it to a baggage car, and see about making the station. I'm trying my best to pace myself so my wallet doesn't scream, but it's a challenge. 



Bear in mind there's two different types of ball bearing wheels, those with power pickups and those without. The ones without are a lot less expensive than the ones with, and no reason to buy the ones with if the axle isn't a pickup. Although BB help on the non pickup axles, especially through turns, if budgeting is tight, I'd focus on replacing the wheelsets that are used as pickups, even though they're the most expensive, as they will make the biggest difference.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken:

You will only need power pickups on your BB wheels if you are going to use track power to light the cars, this is how they come. A number of people have taken out the track powered lighting and gne with battery and LEDs.

Chuck


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a 2018D I bought new in 1986 with the gawd awful red and green colors. Also have an LGB, D&RGW combine and two coaches bought at the same time. Plastic wheels and no bearings. My original layout was flat-no grades at all. That little mogul had difficulty pulling those three cars. I can't imagine trying to pull three AMS J&S passenger cars, at seven pounds each, with that little locomotive. Asking way too much of her.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Posted By Gary Armitstead on 29 May 2012 03:04 PM 
I have a 2018D I bought new in 1986 with the gawd awful red and green colors. Also have an LGB, D&RGW combine and two coaches bought at the same time. Plastic wheels and no bearings. My original layout was flat-no grades at all. That little mogul had difficulty pulling those three cars. I can't imagine trying to pull three AMS J&S passenger cars, at seven pounds each, with that little locomotive. Asking way too much of her.










My moguls are not bad pullers as long as the track is flat. They easily pull at least 8-10 LGB, Bachmann, and Aristo/Delton cars. It's once you throw a grade at them that things get ugly, or as on our layout, one section where there's both a grade and a series of s turns.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

TJH:

You are correct. On level track with wide curves it does a good job. In Arizona when we are there I have a layout on the patio (level). I can pull 7 or 8 cars. The curves are Aristo 10' diameter. It is here in Virginia that I have problems with small, not measured, grades.


Chuck


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

simply stated 
if you overload the engine-you will end up with costly issues 

the loco can be made to do a lot-at the cost of other components 
id think the best option is free rolling coaches


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TJH on 29 May 2012 04:17 PM 
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 29 May 2012 03:04 PM 
I have a 2018D I bought new in 1986 with the gawd awful red and green colors. Also have an LGB, D&RGW combine and two coaches bought at the same time. Plastic wheels and no bearings. My original layout was flat-no grades at all. That little mogul had difficulty pulling those three cars. I can't imagine trying to pull three AMS J&S passenger cars, at seven pounds each, with that little locomotive. Asking way too much of her.










My moguls are not bad pullers as long as the track is flat. They easily pull at least 8-10 LGB, Bachmann, and Aristo/Delton cars. It's once you throw a grade at them that things get ugly, or as on our layout, one section where there's both a grade and a series of s turns. 

My point on the pulling power of the old 2018D was strictly related to the passenger cars he wanted to pull. The LGB D&RGW passenger cars are a bit heavier than their old freight cars, i.e. the high side gondolas, stock cars, etc. The freight train I could pull twenty plus years ago were 7-8 cars, but it always seemed like I was right at the verge of slipping-NO real reserve of power. All my curves at that time were the LGB 1600 series, "8 foot diameter" stuff and some "S" curves. But hey, I STILL love that little Mogul.....that's what got me introduced to this hobby. She's a shelf queen now.


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

simply stated 
if you overload the engine-you will end up with costly issues 
its easy to add wieght, and for a while the loco will pull more 

oddly, running 2% and R3, but very flat track mine (all 7-all stock weight) will easily pull 4 coaches 

the loco can be made to do a lot-at the cost of other components 
id think the best option is free rolling coaches


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

sorry


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Well said Steve.

If you want to add weight for better performance, call Axel at Train-Li or Muhammed and order some idler gears to have on hand. It is not a question of if, but when. 


Remember, it takes two gears to fix the problem. One may go out and you may not notice. It is when the second one goes that you will hear the motor spinning and the wheels staying in place. 


This is very similar to the cracked gear on the Bachmann Connie. When it goes the engine doesn't. 


Chuck


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## Dave Meashey (Jan 2, 2008)

Perhaps the pulling power of the Mogul is prototypical? I have the Mallory Hope Ferral book "C&S NG." The author states in the book that the moderenized C&S Moguls (the locomotive LGB later featured as the 2019) were only rated for three passenger cars leaving Denver. Any more cars required double heading. 

Perhaps they don't seem so bad in light of that fact. Anyway, I still enjoy both of mine. They do have Kadees front and rear, and double head nicely. 

Best, 
David Meashey


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## stevedenver (Jan 6, 2008)

exactamundo!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By stevedenver on 31 May 2012 11:10 AM 
exactamundo! How true! That's what I find so fascinating about modeling Colorado narrow gauge. When you compare what these small locomotives had to do one hundred years ago to move freight and commerce through the Rockies, it is truly remarkable. Two or three car passenger trains and 10-15 car freights were commonplace. Don't try to push these models beyond thier limits. This is NOT 100 car freight trains of modern times, pulled by multiple 4000 HP dis-easals. This is railroading "the old-fashioned way".


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