# Interesting post by Scott Polk on Aristo forum.



## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Check out the must read post by Scott Polk on the Aristo forum.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

So is this an April fools kind of thing?


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## Paul Burch (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't know.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

This coincides closely with the closing of one of Aristo's large retail dealers in the Midwest.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like some good prices possible. Looking forward to the new website too.

The proximity of the posting to April 1st seemed strange to me though. Probably just a coincidental timing thing.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

If, and it is still conjecture at this stage, the report is true, expect the permanently discounted prices to have a knock on effect with their dealers who will be very discouraged from stocking AristoCraft products. 
The move to on line discounting by manufacturers will force other companies to go on line as well, just to stay price competitive 
The combined effects of which will lead to the closure of more bricks and mortar stores and the shutting down of independent on line "shop fronts". 
The result may well be a short term general lowering of retail prices, until the effect of less quantity discounting from the factories in China forces the cost prices to ultimately rise again.


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if this means that dealers will get a new discount or are they going to have to compete with the manufacture?


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Most likely *TRUE. *Scott talked about new Website at ECLSTS and also stated closing St. Aubins would not adversely impact Aristo. 

I see this as very good for the hobby. Of course *CUSTOMER SERVICE *will be the name of the game. If it is an easy to use website and easy to talk to on the phone, then it will impact other dealers. But I don't see it any different than somebody opening up another new e-business. Happens all of the time. 

I'm excited. Gee this gives us 2 days to speculate. This forum is GREAT at that. 

Tom P


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

So where is this post by Scott Polk on the Aristo forum? I've looked but I can't find it.


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I found it.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Nothing new here, they started this awhile back, 40% across the board discount, DIRECT... Looks
like their going to make it permanent come Monday, there is also a fat price increase that goes into 
effect at the same time !!! Got a hold of the new price list at the show last week, its a real "read it and 
weep" if there ever was one, Pacifics & Consolidations have an MSRP of a kilo-buc, Mallets R $1100
now, and so it goes... If they can't kill LS with a lack of variety, they'll just price it out of the market...
Paul R...


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow--I can't see how you continue to have dealers with that arrangement. Interesting move, along with a 20% price increase. If I was a dealer, I'd be extremely po'd. 

We're fortunate to have a really excellent local (within and hour) dealer, Star Hobby. They have a HUGE stock of aristo stuff. What does this do to them?


I can see the logic from Aristo's point of view. As it is, as I understand it, stuff comes boxed from china, and aristo ships it to dealers. Why not just ship it to customers directly? But are we going to maintain the nonsense of MSRP and the idea that you are getting a discount from Aristo? Has aristo promised to discount less than dealers?


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Let me understand....

MRSP of an xyz = $100.

I can now buy it direct from Aristo for $90 + shipping. 


DEALER gets it at 40% pays $60 sells at $90 + no shipping at brick and mortar store. Few dealers sell at MSRP. 

How does Aristo on line hurt the brick and mortar store? 


It will come down to CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! 



What I see is that people who are entry level and come on Aristo Website can now easily make a purchase. I think that might help the hobby grow.


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Does it matter? Essentially, they're cutting out the "middle man." With online and distance buying pretty much becoming the common, we, the modellers, save money on profit for wholesalers and dealers. Eventually, we'll probably see all modelling manufacturers go to this paradigm. 

Personally, do I think it's for the better? I dunno, the jury's still out, but the evidence is that it is definitely coming our way. Could there be a point where the local hobby shop becomes extinct? Probably. 

Robert


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

USA Trains has been retailing directly to the customer for years and from my understanding some retailers don't like it. 
It is good to be the manufacturer and the retailer. It jsut makes business sense but cutting out the middle man hobby store is not a good idea. Aristo can and does dictate the prices to the hobby shop through MSRP which will continue to work as long as Aristo doesn't undercut the retailers everything should be fine. 
Todd


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

First, it is for real, posted in the forum, and I heard about this a while ago (just could not reveal). 

It will definitely have an impact on small dealers trying to sell at MSRP... they will not be able to compete at all. 

The question is how will the rest of the dealers fare, the ones that do discounts? Clearly Aristo is doing this for financial reasons. If you assume that in either model all the stock is sold by Aristo (whether direct or to dealers), then it's down to which method will give Aristo the most profit. 

I would think this is direct sales, UNLESS there are dealers that move so much volume that Aristo "needs" them. 

I'd look to a "winnowing out" of smaller dealers, similar to the reality of what has happened to MTH (being done slightly differently). 

A point that someone on the Aristo forum brought up is very interesting: how will this affect "inventory" levels? Right now dealers will buy to have product in stock, long after Aristo has sent everything to dealers... now, Aristo needs to maintain inventory. 

Keeping a bunch of product in stock cannot be the best business model for Aristo. 

I'd look to more "hills and dales" in product availability... 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By cape cod Todd on 31 Mar 2012 08:02 AM 
USA Trains has been retailing directly to the customer for years....
Not really.

I assume you're thinking of the Charles Ro Supply Company:
http://www.charlesro.com/welcome_to_charles_ro.htm

That is a retail operation, they sell a lot more than just USA Trains products.

It's just that USA Trains and Charles Ro Supply has the same owners (more or less as far as I know).
Running a successful retail operation and running a successful manufacturing organization are quite different.

The way I read the post on the Aristo forum is that they will sell Aristocarft products to the end user directly.

Not sure what's different since they have had an on-line store forever.










It's just the few times I tried it I couldn't get anything to work - figured it could have been the browser I'm using.

So I don't know what the pricing was on their existing on-line store, with the announcement they mention Discount pricing but not what the actual "standard" discount will be - only that one can get an additional 10% starting April 2nd.

The cost to run the business will go up for Aristocraft - not only do they need to keep more inventory which was already mentioned, but they also need to increase their staff substantially to handle many small shipments to end customers rather than a few large ones to retail stores and to provide a much higher level of customer service.

Knut


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Mar 2012 09:43 AM 
....

A point that someone on the Aristo forum brought up is very interesting: how will this affect "inventory" levels? Right now dealers will buy to have product in stock, long after Aristo has sent everything to dealers... now, Aristo needs to maintain inventory. 

Keeping a bunch of product in stock cannot be the best business model for Aristo. 

I'd look to more "hills and dales" in product availability... 

Regards, Greg 
How can ya say that Greg? It's fundamental that when you go retail, you have to maintain inventory. Further, I thought Aristo offered a drop-ship option for the brick and mortar stores. If so, then they were already maintaining inventory and had the processes in place to do fulfillment on a onesy level.


To me, it just seems they've extended the old drop-ship option directly to us...and called it "discounted sales". 

If the web ordering works ok, I think they'll probably do ok. Certainly Mr. Polk, with his hobby shop operations background, is familiar with web sales and fulfillment.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Mike Reilley on 31 Mar 2012 11:07 AM 
I thought Aristo offered a drop-ship option for the brick and mortar stores.


I didn't know that.
If that is true, then the situation changes a bit.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knut: 

First, Aristo is now going to sell AT A DISCOUNT direct to customers... VERY different than selling at the ridiculous list price. This IS a big deal. 

Second, just because Charles Ro is technically a different company, it really is the same people who own USAT, but they have not lowered their prices to kill all the dealers... and if you notice, there's quite a lot fewer USAT dealers than Aristo or Bachmann. 

I can send you the latest insider if you want, the list prices have gone up by 20% also (tomorrow), but that't not the point here, the direct sales by Aristo will undercut many of their brick and mortar dealers. 


Mike: 
Historically (and you can verify by posts from Aristo personell on their forum) Aristo get's all the new product out the door right away. Indeed, it's often misleading when Aristo announces that "the PCC" is sold out... Yes, they shipped almost all the PCC stock to dealers, but the dealers have plenty of product. 

Clearly, this move is motivated by profit. It clearly behooves Aristo to get everything out the door, but now, it will be going out mostly to end users, not dealers... thus "out of stock" is my prediction, based on history and the reasons for making the change. That's how I can make this statement (also, you might guess I could have some inside information).. 

The drop ship operation was just shipping, did not affect your price, since you were dealing with a dealer. I do not see your reasoning in this here. The dealer was getting a sale and profit with the drop ship. Now buying direct from Aristo cuts out the dealer entirely. Absolutely different. 

Sure, I believe the web ordering will work, Aristo is not stupid, been in business a long time. They are doing this to increase profits. (Although, I don't agree that Aristo is familiar with web sales, this is still new to them, but with Scott at the helm, who more clearly embraces newer technologies, I have no doubt he can make it as good as it can be). 

Regards, Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Mar 2012 01:13 PM 
Knut: 

First, Aristo is now going to sell AT A DISCOUNT direct to customers... VERY different than selling at the ridiculous list price. This IS a big deal. 

Second, just because Charles Ro is technically a different company, it really is the same people who own USAT, but they have not lowered their prices to kill all the dealers... and if you notice, there's quite a lot fewer USAT dealers than Aristo or Bachmann. 

I can send you the latest insider if you want, the list prices have gone up by 20% also (tomorrow), but that't not the point here, the direct sales by Aristo will undercut many of their brick and mortar dealers.

Greg,

I didn't think my post suggested that this is "not a big deal" - at least that was not my intent.

I just don't know, I don't think any knows except some people at Aristo.

Yes, they mentioned "Discount" pricing, but how much of a discount to the end user and how does that compare to the discount a dealer gets.

You mention a 20% price increase - is Aristo just playing games here? Bump the list price up 20% and then give you some discount to compensate for the price increase?
Until the whole new price structure is known, both to the end user via direct sale and the new dealer cost, one can only speculate what will happen.

B&M dealers had to compete with discount on-line dealers all along, could well be that the Aristo approach is more competition to the discount on-line dealers than the B&M ones. 

We'll just have to wait and see.

Where I see the potential problen is on the Customer Service end.
They really need to beef that up with direct sales.

Knut


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, I know more than I can say here... let's just see how things develop. 

Is Aristo just playing games? There's certainly some "creativity" going on here. Careful reading of the insider, putting 2 + 2 together and a few other things will reveal that the costs (not the list prices) have changed a bit. 

For anyone with the last insider, check a few things out, an SD45 is now cheaper than a GP40.... how can that be? Also look at brass track prices vs. stainless steel prices... in reality once you check the discount prices, brass went up and ss went down! 

I believe this is an attempt by Aristo to put prices more in line with actual costs. Why has this happened? Better cost analysis and management by Scott? May well be. More realistic pricing due to competition? That also makes sense, AML is eating their lunch on brass track. 

There's a lot afoot here, and I don't think you have heard the last of the changes. 

Regards, Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I think it is good news. Atlas O allows consumers to purchase direct although not at a discount. I think this is great. In this economy it's about surviving and this is a brilliant move in that regard. I'm all for almost whatever it takes to keep us supplied with our trains.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I can already hear LHSs sighing "one more reason not to carry large scale."


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Simple, read it, and take it at face value and see what happens.


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

expect the permanently discounted prices to have a knock on effect with their dealers 
MTH did this last year, and there were comments about them putting dealers out of business. I noticed they were still advertising their 'direct from the factory' sale in GR last month. 

Look at it the other way. Online order fulfillment is easy - Amazon will do it for you if you can't be bothered to ship things yourself. But if you already have a Distribution Center where you unpack containers from China and ship the boxes to dealers, it is a simple matter to go into direct sales and cut out the middleman. Large scale models are tough to stock as they take up so much room. 

Yes, as Tom says, Customer Service and after-sales service can be an issue - but if the dealer is just going to send it back to the manufacturer anyway - what's the problem?


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## Mike Reilley (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Mar 2012 01:13 PM 
...

The drop ship operation was just shipping, did not affect your price, since you were dealing with a dealer. I do not see your reasoning in this here. The dealer was getting a sale and profit with the drop ship. Now buying direct from Aristo cuts out the dealer entirely. Absolutely different. 

Sure, I believe the web ordering will work, Aristo is not stupid, been in business a long time. They are doing this to increase profits. (Although, I don't agree that Aristo is familiar with web sales, this is still new to them, but with Scott at the helm, who more clearly embraces newer technologies, I have no doubt he can make it as good as it can be). 

Regards, Greg 
All I was saying is that I thought Aristo was set up well to do what they were proposing. There are three kinds of fulfillment operations...bulk, individual, and rack stuffing. Each requires a different kind of inventory management. 

Bulk fulfillment is what distributors do mostly...shipping larger shipments to a retailer normally. Manufacturers do this too...and the inventory management focus's on what's in the wear house. So think, large shipments, multiple items per shipment...and management worried about pilferage and security.


Individual fulfillment is about shipping usually one item to one customer. UPS and FEDEX are the masters of this at the shipping level. Amazon is the expert at the retail level...and is the model I believe that Aristo is following. Now, if you have been drop shipping, then you're familiar with all the shipping issues related to sending one box to one customer...boxing, packing, labeling, and shipping. The Amazon model adds the web linkages...from sales to labeling (for shipment) and from inventory tracking to sales (to ensure you have what you're trying to sell). I would believe that their background in web sales from their web site...and their drop shipping experience, would put them in a decent position to do what they are planning without much issue. Here, management is worried about speed and minimization of damage to the product or it's box. Shipping the same day something was "bought" is a good thing.

. 

Rack stuffing fulfillment is what you see all the time at grocery stores and Home Depot. This is where the fulfillment company sends a person into a store with all the stuff on a "rack", and the person refills the rack for the store. Here management is just concerned with whether the service gets done on time.


The whole "trick" to doing this right, is the inventory to sales linkage. That has to be right. Otherwise, you end up selling stuff you don't have...or not selling stuff which is lost in the inventory system. This is all about having the right SKUs...and bar codes...and scanners...and the right number of people to do it right and fast.


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

There are many people that don't have a large scale dealer anywhere near them, the closest one to me is over 2 hours away one-way, 
and this may be a great thing for them.

If this helps Aristo Craft stay in the G scale business then it's a good thing for us. 
Scott has a much better idea of how things really are than we do and I'm sure he is doing what he thinks in nessary to keep Aristo in the G Scale business.

Ron


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Dealers will still get a better discount price plus free shipping if 
their order is over $2500. But for us consumers this is good because 
most dealers do not carry (inventory) every single item Aristo has in stock 
which leaves money tied up in inventory at Aristo's warehouse. Now 
Aristo is giving us the opportunity to make these (and any other) purchase 
direct. They always did that anyway in their online store, just at MSRP, now with a discount. I still plan to use my favorite online retailers especially if 
they have something Aristo is sold out of at the warehouse. If dealers really want our business this could 
push dealers to make larger purchases from Aristo so the dealers would 
have the items in stock and not Aristo thus forcing us (politely) to order from the dealers. I don't know if I stated that as
clearly as it could have been. Either way, more sales means more 
product for us. It could be a win-win-win situation for Aristo, Dealer 
and Us.


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

As for buying G scale goes and esp. with locos, then the upcoming price increase goes, I won't be buying a whole lot IF it doesn't come in my roadname. I won't but SF, UP or the Eastern road names. It's just too much a pain in the A** to find the right color of spray paint, buy it,do all the work to paint it, then pay out a bunch of money for decals. I have my source for getting G stuff at a fair price other than Evil bay, but not much is out there that fits my road names that I don't already have. Also, my shop backlog has many locos and some cars to be finished already, so if the manufacturers want ME to buy their products, they'd better think about making my road name(s). Believe me, if they make it I buy it. With close to 100 locos and over 800 pieces of rolling stock, I can prove that I support or have supported the manufacturers.

Sorry, I had to rant. I'm just tired of the Lack of GN, NP and CB&Q locos and cars being made right now.

Rocky


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nate, are you sure of your data? I know that what you are saying about pricing to dealers and the $2500 limit (but not for track) is true TODAY. (track is not included at all in the free shipping) 

But are you sure that this situation is unchanged tomorrow? 

I think we all need to sit tight and see what develops. 

This change in business strategy could very well have far reaching effects. 

Regards, Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 31 Mar 2012 06:41 PM 
Nate, are you sure of your data? I know that what you are saying about pricing to dealers and the $2500 limit (but not for track) is true TODAY. (track is not included at all in the free shipping) 

But are you sure that this situation is unchanged tomorrow? 

I think we all need to sit tight and see what develops. 

This change in business strategy could very well have far reaching effects. 

Regards, Greg 




Greg, you're right, my bad. My claims were based on information passed around on the forums, including Aristo's. It could change and/or I could very well just be passing along bad info. I hope not.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I for one will take a wait and see attitude and hope it goes the right direction. Of course could always say I told you so but lets hope not. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nate, I apologize for not communicating clearly. 

What you wrote is correct for right now... but I'm wondering if those "rules" for dealers will also change... I think we are only "hearing" the consumer side of what is going on... I think the impact of this business change could bring other changes. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ron Hill (Sep 25, 2008)

I emailed Trainworld about their dropping USA trains in the store. The person who responded to my email complained to the fact that USA was competing against Trainworld and he did not think that was fair. I guess now they will have to drop Aristo-Craft from their product offering in order not to be bias. 
Ron


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

That's very interesting about Trainworld. Guess it is sort of the same thing. But, Charles Ro does not offer discounts like we here Aristo doing. There was once upon a time I bought some closeout roadnames from Charles Ro at a big discount but that doesn't seem to happen anymore. I still shop the closeout section of Trainworld and they usually have some good buys. But I don't use Trainworld for anything else, there are better prices than TW at RLD and others. .


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## Doug C (Jan 14, 2008)

....a knock on effect with their dealers who will be very discouraged from stocking AristoCraft products. 
The move to on line discounting by manufacturers will force other...."

Since the dawn of time (?) or evcer since I finally started into MR directly to G-gauge there has been the CharlesRo/USATrain configuration !! 


I've never bought from charlesro but have bought usatrain rolling stock and locos from dealers !! One post on the web stated that the dealer can't survivie on 10% profit geeez they're are several that markup more than that and seem to survive. Of course the ones that pricetag at msrp or greater they tend to have a lot of shelf queens and also are the primary reason of discouragement to newbies. Plus the majority of consumers are not savvy shop'round consumers, be it model railway gear or any other consumable !! And a lot of those would spend their money on heavily marketed shortlife span consumables (techy toys like smartphones-tabs'-hugetvs-new vehicle 3-5yrs) vs long lasting hobby equipment !

....doug c


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

This move by Aristo is no different than the current Charles RO/USAT set up. Charles Ro does not sell USAT at MSRP so they are discounted a bit, but Aristo may discount more than Charles Ro does, we'll see. It could force serious dealers to beef up on Aristo stock to keep consumers from being able to buy from Aristo. The discount Aristo offers will be the key in how this turns out. But, we have been told pricing will go up 20% from Aristo, but I have heard nothing about USAT doing the same thing. If they are made at the same factory, it would seem likely USAT will follow suit. Or is there more to the story? Or, is this 20% price increase from Aristo part of the plan?


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## rdamurphy (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like this may become a trend in our hobby. Received by email today: 

Important Update 
As of May 1, 2012, ExactRail will no longer offer a dealer discount and will discontinue our dealer network. Cost of production has increased considerably for ExactRail over the last two years. We have absorbed most of these increases through our margins, however this is not a supportable model for our business. Our conclusion is that we can keep prices reasonable by serving you directly. We believe we can both benefit from having direct interaction. 
The future of ExactRail is bright with many exciting and innovative new products coming soon. Over the past year we have been busier than ever in new product development, the quality and authenticity of our products will exceed anything that ExactRail has released to date. You have a lot to look forward to from ExactRail. 
Keep an eye on ExactRail.com and our Facebook page for some exciting upcoming announcements! 
Happy Railroading, 
The ExactRail Team


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nate, check out the new Aristo site and see for yourself the list prices and the discounts. It will be hard to come to the wrong conclusion with cold hard facts there. 

I do not follow your logic that Aristo dealers would beef up stock to keep people from being able to buy direct. Getting all the dealers together to form such a monopoly seems impossible. 

If they tried to do that, Aristo would smell a rat and do something, they are not stupid. 

Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Hey Greg,

I didn't say dealers would beef up stock, but it could. I didn't mean in a negative tone or that there would be some conspiracy against consumers from the dealers.. I'm just saying, like someone else said on the Aristo forum, dealers don't (and usually won't) always carry everything in every companies catalog. But, it may compel dealers to stock more of Aristo's stock in order to minimize sales losses from those (consumers) who now have a opportunity to buy direct at a much more competitive price than Aristo used to offer for less than the MSRP.. 


I don't want to argue, but, what do you mean by me coming to the wrong conclusion by the cold hard facts at Aristo? Did I say something that conflicted with that? 


EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I am totally happy with this move by Aristo. RLD will still be my number one dealer and I will watch TRainworlds closeouts closely as always. But those are the only two dealers I use. Now we have an opportunity to buy direct at a nice discount from Aristo and when and if my two favorite dealers don't have what I need, I can just order it direct.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Nate: you said: 
"This move by Aristo is no different than the current Charles RO/USAT set up. Charles Ro does not sell USAT at MSRP so they are discounted a bit, but Aristo may discount more than Charles Ro does, we'll see.'" 

I've mentioned why this is different, so that point really has been presented, and you can take or leave the reasoning there... but specifically here: " but Aristo may discount more than Charles Ro does, we'll see.'" 

There are cold hard facts right now just look at the Aristo site, you can see the prices and answer the question about who discounts more... I'll let you make your own observation, but the answers on how much the discount is are right there, inarguable... i.e. "cold hard facts"... no "we'll see"... you can see NOW. 

That's what I was trying to convey. 

I'm reserving judgement on how this pans out. I'm worried that this move might not be the best for Aristo... it's very difficult to go direct and have dealers... if you are trying to get incremental business, you have to, defacto, compete with your dealers. Since the dealers need to make a profit, then history tells the dealers will work on lower margins. 

Aristo could lose more dealer sales than the extra sales from going direct. Of course the higher profit margin by going direct makes it not exactly a 1 to 1 comparison. 

We will see, just concerned. No one else makes inexpensive 1:29 steam locos... 

Regards, Greg


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

Moose Caboose in MAryland just dumped Aristo!!!!

got this email a few minutes ago...



What a way to start April off with - *Hot Train News*.


Two model train companies seem to be having financial problems - Aristo Craft & Exactrail.


Sorry to report - as of April 2nd we will no longer be dealing with either company.


If you wish to obtain future products from either company - you must order direct from them.


I will be more than happy to answer any questions you might have on this issue. 


This will have NO effect on The Moose Caboose going forward - we thank you all for your support and loyalty - We have some great suppliers that care about the hobby industry and local hobby shops like us.
And with your past and present support, April 16th marks our 9th year in business .



Let me say one last thing - Thank you to all our great suppliers of model train products - keep up all the good work and thanks for supporting all the fine local hobby shops.


Thanks, Glen
_*The Moose Caboose
*_


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

........and I betcha they will not be the only LHS's doing so.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Can't say I blame the--aristo is underselling their major dealers, at least on some rolling stock items. Kind of startling. 

If they sell rolling stock for a few dollars less than the leading retailers, it's pretty much game over for the retailers.


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

you know... this is OK news for us train guys... we get some decent prices... BUT...

how are they gonna get any new customers, when there will be no place left to see and touch the product?

I'm glad I have enough stuff to last me a life time... I always want more... but I don't need more...

I have a pretty nice collection I can live with...

Philip


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This is not good news for anyone in the Hobby.


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## Tom Parkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Treeman says...._This is not good news for anyone in the Hobby. _

Possibly..... But say Aristo does not change it's business plan. Sales struggle, some dealers stay in business, but sales in general remain flat. Aristo makes little profit which eventually means Aristo stops producing new product, and is slowly just reissuing old stock and eventually..........

Only time will really tell if this is not good news. 

We are the ambassadors of Large Scale Model Railroading. It is up to us to share the joy that we get from this hobby. Regardless of who the manufacture is, we need to promote the hobby in order to keep the business alive. 


Tom


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## livesteam53 (Jan 4, 2008)

Very well stated Tom!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I'd like to hear from the dealers, they are the only people who really know what the "deal" is and have a handle on how it will affect their business. 

For anyone who did not do the math... first page of the Aristo site, the Dash 9's are 40% off list price. I would guess that smaller dealers were not getting much more than this from Aristo. Dealers cannot survive with 10% profit margins, or even 15% (this is true for most companies). 

So, not trying to find out the cost here, but just looking at the facts, seems that margins to dealers will be "squeezed". Maybe this is going to happen everywhere, but 

Charles Ro sells the SD70's at 379.95, the list is $629.95 which is just a hair under 40%, but I have not seen the price increase from Ro that is expected. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

What's interesting to me is manufacturers like Accucraft who set a retail price, and then build a business model to where all of their dealers end up charging pretty close to that price. If you want one of their products, it really doesn't matter (much) who you buy it from, be it them directly or one of their dealers. There's very little fluctuation in price from store to store. (A bit more on the rolling stock, but still not too big.) I don't get the impression that Accucraft's dealers are too worried about Accucraft's on-line store stealing their customers. Accucraft's dealers seem content to earn business the old fashioned way, by offering good customer service that keeps you coming back. Look at the prices on Bridgewerks, Phoenix, and other hobby mainstays, and the prices are likewise very similar from dealer to dealer. 

What's the value of "MSRP" if everyone and their brother significantly undercuts it and still makes a profit? Such high prices only add confusion and scare newcomers away from the hobby. ($1,200 for a plastic steam loco?) Personally, I'd like to simply see Aristo drop their MSRP by 30% to where it better reflected market realities. They could sell on their web site at the new, lower MSRP (with the occasional discount for sales, etc. as is a manufacturer's prerogative) and their dealers can still buy and sell at the same prices and profit margins they've always had. Sure, the dealers have another store to compete with, but that's the free market. St. Aubins just folded tent, so loose one, gain one. 

Time will tell how Aristo's prices compare with what other dealers are charging. A quick check of a few dealers showed Aristo to be fairly competitive but across-the-board more expensive than the others on a random sampling of products. We saw that, too, with their "Leap Day" sale. There were some good deals, but folks found other dealers had some items cheaper (and bought them from those dealers instead). The dealers actually have the potential to gain customers from Aristo's foray into competitively-priced on-line sales. Aristo can do all the promotion of a "sale," and we can sit on our computer with multiple tabs open and compare prices with as many dealers as we'd like. Aristo gets our attention, we get the product. Aristo wins whether they sell direct or through one of their dealers. The money's going to get to them one way or the other. 

Later, 

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, the "inflated" msrp is a funny thing... like when you buy a new mattress, no one every pays the list price... or better yet, anyone pay list price for a car? 

It seems to be that the first time I felt G scale "list" prices were getting nonsensical was the Bachmann K, or was it the new shay? One of them had a list price of $1200, which no one ever paid. 

One comment though Kevin, your last 2 sentences, I don't agree... Aristo stands to make more money in direct sales, but could lose dealer sales. They could lose if the additional direct sales (profit) does not make up for lost revenue from dealers no longer selling their product. Several online retailers have already dropped Aristo. 

There's the really interesting and unknown part of the story yet to be played out... 

Regards, Greg


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I spoke to Star Hobby in Maryland... they area Huge Aristo dealer... 

I asked if they would still carry AristoCraft... and he said yes... but he wasn't sure what was going to happen when it was time to order the "New New" stuff... 

sounds to me like they will be waiting for Aristo to dump older stock, and they will sell that because it has some profit in it... no profit in ordering anything new... 

This Sucks...


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

This reminds of when Walthers took over the LGB distribution. Our local hobby shop stopped bringing in any LGB because of the outrageous prices Walthers was(is) charging. They stuck to the product lines where they can actually make money, such as Accucraft. LGB is one company that might be able to benefit from direct sales to either the consumer or dealers since the current distribution model in N/A is so screwed up--there just isn't room for that extra middleman. I do think to grow the hobby, though, that the manufacturers are going to have to reinvest some of their new-found direct sales profit into putting product onto dealers shelves for display purposes only if nothing else, because I think it's critical people can look at them, touch them etc. Otherwise it's just a race to the bottom and there will be no new people getting into it.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

They could lose if the additional direct sales (profit) does not make up for lost revenue from dealers no longer selling their product. 
Depends. In terms of specific product sales, demand for a given product isn't proportional to the number dealers selling it. If you want an (insert product here) you're going to search the web to find someone who has it and order it. What you're _not_ likely to do on-line is pick up that box car, jar of paint, glue, and a few extra pieces of styrene while you're at it. That's where the sales are going to take a hit, but that's already been happening as brick-and-mortar stores fold in favor of on-line retailers. I think it's to a manufacturer's advantage to be on the shelves in the brick-and-mortar stores, but it's just as much to the advantage of the store to stock the manufacturer's product. It's that product which draws people in. No product to draw the people, no people to spend money. How often have any of us stopped shopping at a particular store or eating at a particular restaurant because they stopped carrying a particular product or menu item? It's not just the sales of that product they lose, but all the ancillary stuff we bought at the same time. You can only stand on principle so long before reality forces you to lose your footing. 

It will be interesting to see what happens. The manufacturer/dealer relationship is very symbiotic. I don't foresee any "doom and gloom" scenario playing out here, as I think both sides are smart enough not to bite the hands that feed them. They may turn their noses up for a bit, but ultimately hunger takes over. 

Later, 

K


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

I make my large scale purchases from a variety of sources, from train shows, to ebay, and from brick and mortar to the big online shops.

In the last two years I would say that 90-95% of the Aristo Craft products that I have bought from the big trains shops (you know the names) have been dropped shipped directly from Aristo craft. 

I have purchased 3 Mallets, 4 Dash 9's, 4 SD45's, 3 E-8s, and many 2 bay coal hoppers and two sets of heavyweights. None of these items were sitting on a "shelf" in their stores but rather on Aristo Crafts shelves.

Personally I think that if these dealers had actually "stocked" items rather than drop shipped from Aristo's shelves then maybe Aristo would not have gone this way in the first place.

If this is whats has to happen for Aristo to stay in business then I'm all for it.

Ron


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I want Aristo to stay in business too... I would say 75% of my stuff is Aristo... maybe 20% USA Trains... and the other 5% is LGB...

I think for the $$$ the product is great... but I also have Star Hobby close by here in MD... and 1/3 of the store is Aristo stuff...

Always buy off the shelf from them, and never a drop ship...

I have also purchased on EBAY, Internet Stores, Used from Hobbyists etc...

but going in and just looking and finding something that catches your eye... or you may not have been looking for...

the impulse sales are going to go way down...


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## DocJ (Apr 3, 2012)

I've "gamed" what my purchases over the last two years would have cost me if I had made my Aristo purchases direct from Aristo under the new structure. Over two years I've bought approximately 400 feet of brass USA track, nine engines, over 40 feet of general rolling stock, a string of streamliners and a string of heavyweights. Plus several large and several small power supplies and assorted other accessories. This was for my garden layout and layouts for my two grandsons.

In just about every instance my actual purchase from a dealer was cheaper than if I bought it for 40 percent off list from Aristo.

I spoke to several friends who are making major layout expansions or changes and their experience was exactly the same.

This doesn't mean that the bricks and mortar dealers can make a profit and survive at those prices. I prefer to buy from the dealers anyway because they have the odds and ends that are "stoppers" when building a layout As has been mentioned, they provide the supply buffer between when aristo builds and then rebuilds (if ever) an item. What it DOES mean is that the Aristo 40% policy should not affect purchases from serious hobbyists and that Aristo isn't really competing -- if you do your price compairsons. HOWEVER, that being said, the problem is whether, at the existing volume and existing price structure from existing dealers -- whether they can make a go of it. If they can't this has nothing, in my opinion, to do with aristo direct sales but rather already slim profit margins.


Where to go? My suggestion for existing dealers is to take a hint from Trainworld -- some discount when a buyer surpasses a set dollar amount on a given sale. You've made your profit on the first piece; incremental shipping cost (to the buyer) is marginal. Take a reduced profit (slightly)) on the added stuff that goes out the door and that helps inventory turnover.


Is that hurtful to those in the hobby a long time who don't need very much at a time? Bring on the "shower with your buddy to save water" saying and apply it -- pool your order with your buddies.

Another thought -- perhaps we should all encourage Aristo to sell track / switches / power to clubs at dealer price & terms (but no rolling stock). If we have a nice layout to run on we tend to buy more things to run on it. Be like the injector razor folks (Gillette ??) -- sell the holder at cost and make the money on the refills; in this case, on the engines and rolling stock.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

This afternoon, April 3, 2012, I have not been able to get into the Aristo site. It hasn't worked for several hours, at least for me. Is anyone else have problems or is it just me?

Chuck


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Star Hobby is my reference as well. For those who don't know, it's a large hobby store in Annapolis that stocks a really vast amount of large scale, with boxes of aristo stacked to the ceiling. They also have a good stock of LGB, and Bachmann, and a smaller stock of other brands as well as hobby supplies. I invariably come out of there with stuff I didn't intend--as Kevin says, I get styrene stock, glues, paints, figures I didn't know about, pieces of track. I buy stuff because it catches my eye in a way that it just doesn't online. They were willing to sell me two five foot stainless steel tracks, exactly what I needed, rather than an entire box. They're good for the hobby as a whole, not just aristocraft. 

This seems like a bad deal for them, and ultimately a bad deal for us, in that stores like Star are probably going to vanish.


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## bruce a m (Jan 2, 2008)

I am still going to buy from Star. & Rld. Bruce


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## lathroum (Jan 2, 2008)

I will still buy from Star also... Best hobby store in MD I think...

just my oppinion... plus like was said... G scale to the ceiling... 

and in some places the tiles have been removed to go even higher...


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## BodsRailRoad (Jul 26, 2008)

Hey Bruce are you SURE SURE SURE SURE SURE SURE SURE SURE your going to buy from Star and RLD????


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## GN_Rocky (Jan 6, 2008)

I didn't have a problem getting into the site. Remember, many parts are still being built and don't work yet. 
Earlier I posted on this thread, but mostly a rant about my roadname not being made, but I did not address the real issue. I think The Polks had a choice to make and if they did not go the way they went, they might go out of business completely. The days of the Mom and Pop shops is drawing to a close, like it or not. With a economy that's continuing to fail and a government that doesn't seem to care or is helping it fail, not many people are spending money on in this case, hobbies. Our toys are not a needed item, yet some of us are giving up other things that most people are not - like in my case, taking the wife out to dinner every week or a movie now and then or taking a vacation. This way I am still able to buy some train items.

So the amount of product being sold in LS is dwindling from the boom it had in the late 1990s into early 2000. LS train shops are closing or big multi scale train carrying hobby stores are starting to drop LS, sad to hear, but if the manufacturers are still willing to sell to us directly, that's a good thing. Most of the LS items I buy come from Evil bay because I collect the older rolling stock and locos. The New stuff I get comes from Robby at RLD. His price is the best I've seen and his service is great too !!! Sorry, I don't care for Trainworld AND I gave them a chance again and they promised things on the phone, then jammed it up my b*tt hole when they called the next day and said they didn't have what they had sold me the day B-4. I'd LOVE to see them go out of business. Never dealt with St.A that I can remember, unless there was an item off Evil bay. So that doesn't hurt me, but sorry to see another LS dealer close









With all the price increases, I can only think that G scale will once again become a "Doctors and Laywers scale only" like it was back in the 70's and 80's. I personally will continue dealing with Robby as far as getting new things are concerned. There isn't much made that I want and I don't need much to complete my layout. I hope we see some more Hill Lines ( GN, NP and CB&Q ) rolling stock and locos made in the future. That's where my big bucks will be spent.

Rocky


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

This is a good time to look over a old thread.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah. Amazing sh*t. I was told when Scott went direct, Bianco's went ballistic. 
Now we know the rest of the story. 

Be prepared for astronomical MSRP's if this gets sorted to a new supplier after the new year. 
If you don't believe it, look at the Bach C-19 at $1575 MSRP. 
And MAP to disallow deep discounting. 

Oh, well. 
Glad I got out of buying anything new about...oh, the time the K came out. 

TOC


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

That C-19 price makes my S/H Accucraft one seem cheap at 2/3rds the price! 
I have what I need except a few live steamers in the pipeline on order. 
The plaky fantaki are just too expensive now. 

Andrew


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have not seen MAP from Bachmann.


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## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

Can somebody post the link to Scott's posting...I can't seem to find it 
Thanks 

Bubba


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Bubba....probably long gone. Look at the date this thread started. 
MAP is Minimum Advertised Pricing, and you won't see it from Bachmann. In fact, when it happened, they denied it. 
But, talk to stores that sell the stuff, and they will tell you. 

Fairly easy to see. Look at Bachmann pricing, you will see a bottom line nobody seems to go under. 
In the old days, like the original OF 2-8-0, $800 MSRP, street was $225-250-275, depending on discounting structure. 

Now with a $1575 MSRP, street seems stuck at $799. 

TOC


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting point, I would not be surprised one bit it any new "Aristo by Bachmann" is also 2X the old pricing and 1/3 the production runs. 

The thing is though,IF they do that aren't they cutting their own throats? Because just like the housing bubble, you can only raise prices SO high before NOBODY can afford anything and the market collapses. Sometimes you can be TOO greedy and kill off your market, especially for luxuries like toy trains.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Market Economics 101. 
QE1, 2 and 3. 
China KNOWS what our dollar is worth, and they price accordingly. 
They charge three times what they did 11 years ago for the same wheel arrangement loco......therefore, do they think our dollar is worth 1/3 of what we are "told" it's worth? 

Add to that the decrease in the overall LS market.....smaller production runs, and they want their money NOW, instead of amortizing costs over a longer run. 
The days of 10,000 Shays in the initial offering is long gone. 

Once they have their monopoly on model railroad production worldwide, what we pay now will look like penny candy. 

TOC


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

If Bachmann gets to market the Aristo product, their relationship with Kader will probably guarantee "proper sized" manufacturing runs. 

I would not worry, the market will control the street price, no matter what the list price is.. 

Greg


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

I was recently grousing that I simply had too much train stuff to be of any use and that I should sell some of it off. Today I'm reading all this thinking, dam, dont sell it, I might as well just box the extraneous stuff so 10 years from now I still have "new" stuff to run when I can no longer afford new "Everything by Bachmann" trains at $500 for a new Porter (dam near that now). I have 2 spare circles each of pizza track to store away, so the pizza will always have spare track, and enough spare track to finish the indoor layout. Fleabay always seams to have plenty of used stuff and if worse comes to worse there's always that folder of Ted Stinson pullout plans from old GR issues of years gone by.


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Speaking of street prices, I was looking out for just the blade of the Aristo snow plow car for over a year. It was amazing to me that this one plastic part could go for as much as $50 on ebay. With the complete (but used) cars often starting at $70 in the bidding, I've sometimes vaguely thought that one might have a nice part time job just making and selling g-gauge snow plows!


Obviously, that's an oversimplification. But still, it's hard for me to understand why such existing parts aren't produced in more quantity. If, say, it costs $5 US to make, and will bring $25, that's far more lucrative than the production decision point I recall from Econ 101. 

===>Cliffy


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That is a line of reasoning that completely failed on Aristo. They were constantly low on parts, but there have been many battles with them about getting parts. There's some famous quotes like "we don't have parts just sitting on shelves", and then several typical spin attempts to explain why parts were out of stock consistently. 

The bottom line was that Aristo rarely ran parts alone, but virtually only with the production of a loco.... and they always focused on locos to bring in the big cash. With a run of locos typically no more often than once every 2 years, you can see how parts ran out. 

All of this is documented in the Aristo forum, there's many threads on parts availability... look for my old posts there... 

Greg


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## Mike M (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg Aristo is not the only manufacture that does it that way . I ordered motor blocks from another manufacture and was told they were sold out and would be in a month because they ordered extras with their engine order. It took a year to get them. 
Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Out of curiosity what manufacturer was this?


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Greg 
Bach is the same way as far as parts go example run out of replacement axle and brass gear for connie in may was told 1 month still don't have them.


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## Mike M (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg it is USA They have done this to me several times I have waited up to two years for parts because they were waiting for a run. 
Dick if you need a Bachmann connie axle brass gear contact me I have some in stock. 
Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Funny, I've never had parts issues with USAT, detail parts, wheels and axles, etc. 

But, I've never had to order a complete motor block, because they never get damaged... was this a normal diesel block? Or did you you kill a really low production item like a 40 tonner? 

Couldn't you just replace the damaged parts? 

I'm not trying to "get" you, I'm really curious... never had an availability issue.... last time I ordered a brake wheel (Aristo was out of them for years), Mike at USAT asked me what color I needed, I almost fell off my chair! 

Greg


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## Mike M (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg they are for the F3 These are used on an annual xmas display in DC They are run 7 days 12 to 14 hours a day Nobody to attending them so the wheels and all wear down it is easier to just replace. 
Mike


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

Ive had some problems getting parts from USA trains to, I wanted some wheels and gears and they said they were out of them... was for an SD40, but otherwise every other part i have been able to get from them... even parts for my 44 tonner


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Ahh, ok, I see... most people just replace the axles, and thus they are always in stock. 

You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but it only takes me a few minutes to swap out the axles. 

Now, if the gears themselves are wearing and the journal bearings, then I would agree that the entire motor block is worn out. This does make you the exception rather than the rule. 

Thanks for the information, I intend to put ball bearings in the sideframes so I expect the motor blocks themselves to live longer than I will. 

Regards Greg


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## CliffyJ (Apr 29, 2009)

Here's a tiny data point or two, for what it's worth. 

I've tried to get specific parts from Bachmann only twice so far. The first time it went very well: they had it (a part specifically listed / shown as available), and I received it quickly. The second time (a couple months ago), not one part seemed available for an in-production loco, in spite of the fact that parts diagrams were cited by them for ordering from. They said to me over the phone that they were awaiting the shipping container, and that they did not have control over what might be in it. Fortunately, when I sent mine in for repair, they just gave me a whole new loco (there's a thread on this somewhere), so I sure can't complain about that!!

The only time I've needed a USAT part, there were a bunch, related to things like windows and glazing and grab rails and foot rails, for a specific car I wanted to restore. The gentleman knew exactly what I was referring to (even though I did not quite), packed 'em up and shipped them pronto. I was so impressed.

Comparing all these experiences, I'd opine that unless the spare is specifically listed by Bachmann on their site, it's probably not available (they told me just that). I suspect they don't have the staff in PA to pull off much else, but that's just a guess (I hope that they're not just pitching old / dismembered locos in the trash though!) But for USAT, there might truly be an organized and more comprehensive spare parts program -- at least, in the form of one or two people having the knowledge and care to make it happen. 

That's just my very limited experience though. 

===>Cliffy


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## SD90WLMT (Feb 16, 2010)

AS for a different voice here, I have never had trouble wth USAT parts - or Mike understanding what I want.. 

( I do think they need a computer program system for parts ordering / not hand written over the phone...? ) 

I can see where it may be faster to replace entire motor blocks, but 
Why not a ''spare set'' to be rebuilt during off times? then trade them out rather than continuing to buy over and over again new ones... the plastic sees no wear from any amount of use....all parts can be removed and replaced, do you wear out the motors..? commutators maybe, brushes... 

Any time in the past 6 years I have always been shipped the trucks I want...no delays... 

Dirk - DMS Ry.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I think we need to keep in mind that for the most part, all our toy trains are being made in China and with that, parts are not something we can get quickly when the supply runs out. You can't always blame the distributor, when he has to bring parts in with product orders and those orders don't come in from China weekly or even monthly. As great as USAT is at having the parts we need in stock, even they can't place an order for the parts and expect them over night. If there are parts you know you are going to need , such as wheels and gears for a non stop display engine, maybe you should be ordering ahead.


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

I suppose it depends on what parts are "hot" to get quickly. If I recall correctly, Aristo's Lewis Polk supposedly got a relatively quick turnaround to replace "wavy" side frames on the then new E8s. I think they were "flown in" from China.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

The only way that happened was Kader admitted it was their fault.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Also, there was a precedent, USAT got wavy sideframes as I remember on the S4, and Ro made them come to the USA and replace them. 

So, it CAN be done, if you put your foot down. 

Greg


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Lest we remember, we live in a throwaway society. Try getting a simpe replacement switch for a coffee pot, or toaster parts. I know there is a price difference, but manufacturing today is done on a built a given number to fill the container then move on. Same for Tvs, dvd, whatever, except cars. I don't believe much thought is really given to parts and repair on consumer products. Just the way things are. Sad but true.


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

I'll throw my .02 cents in... I've NEVER had a problem getting parts from USAT....even when I needed a blank sd-40 shell, they had it (Blew my mind)...... You have to have product on the market to sell to generate $$ to stay in business.... Aristo has not had product for years.... I wonder how many people placed orders for the next run of GP-40's that were supposed to be delivered fall 2010...... Well, it's fall of 2013.... It's no wonder they are going belly up. It's been one thing after another on why they don't have this, that or the other.... prices doubled, tripled and track is priced as if it was worth more than gold..... I have wanted to purchase so many things over the years from Aristo and could not simply because they did not have it... Let someone else have the molds and product line who can bring it to market so people that want to buy it, can. It is a shame that they are leaving, but from all I have read and experienced... it's all self inflicted..


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Joe Mascitti on 06 Oct 2013 09:42 PM 
I'll throw my .02 cents in... I've NEVER had a problem getting parts from USAT....even when I needed a blank sd-40 shell, they had it (Blew my mind)...... You have to have product on the market to sell to generate $$ to stay in business.... Aristo has not had product for years.... I wonder how many people placed orders for the next run of GP-40's that were supposed to be delivered fall 2010...... Well, it's fall of 2013.... It's no wonder they are going belly up. It's been one thing after another on why they don't have this, that or the other.... prices doubled, tripled and track is priced as if it was worth more than gold..... I have wanted to purchase so many things over the years from Aristo and could not simply because they did not have it... Let someone else have the molds and product line who can bring it to market so people that want to buy it, can. It is a shame that they are leaving, but from all I have read and experienced... it's all self inflicted.. 
Most likely self-inflicted. In many ways, it seems. 
I had an order in (as a dealer, no less) for 18 months...FAXed, e-mail, phone message.....never did get them. LONG ago tried to get parts for heavyweights...never got them all, sold the batch off as-is and let someone else deal with it.
If USA is out of something, they don't seem to be for long.
I'm just afraid nobody is going to pick up the Delton/Aristo Classic line.
Other than the engines, I liked the Delton stuff, and have a lot of it.
TOC


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm just afraid nobody is going to pick up the Delton/Aristo Classic line. 
Other than the engines, I liked the Delton stuff, and have a lot of it. 
I agree, though I'll go one further and say the C-16 has always been a favorite of mine, with the latest version by far the cream of the crop. I'd be sad to see the line discontinued, but I think that's just out of nostalgia. I'm invested in 1:20.3, so I'm not buying it anymore. My dad' got a lot of it on his line, but stopped buying rolling stock 20 or more years ago. So how large is the potential customer pool? Aristo pulled the plug on the Classics line nearly 2 years ago except for the locomotive. I'm afraid that ship may have sailed. I'd love to be wrong on that, but it's not my dollars that will prove it. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 07 Oct 2013 12:14 AM 
I'm just afraid nobody is going to pick up the Delton/Aristo Classic line. 
Other than the engines, I liked the Delton stuff, and have a lot of it. 
I agree, though I'll go one further and say the C-16 has always been a favorite of mine, with the latest version by far the cream of the crop. I'd be sad to see the line discontinued, but I think that's just out of nostalgia. I'm invested in 1:20.3, so I'm not buying it anymore. My dad' got a lot of it on his line, but stopped buying rolling stock 20 or more years ago. So how large is the potential customer pool? Aristo pulled the plug on the Classics line nearly 2 years ago except for the locomotive. I'm afraid that ship may have sailed. I'd love to be wrong on that, but it's not my dollars that will prove it. 

Later, 

K 
Thought the rolling stock was four years ago, but I quit counting.
I had some old original Delton 2-8-0 though here years ago, and some Caledonia.
Upgraded some old Delton with steel braces to hold the motor. I still have some bits and pieces in a drawer somewhere.
The question really isn't the market for the 1:24 stuff as much as it is the market for all of LS.
I remember we had one of the first Aristo reworked 2-8-0's...the ones that sat, geez, was it 5/16" too high....cylinders, pilot deck, front truck angled down.
I remember when.....the man ....said it was because of the helical gears and there was no room to get the boiler back down.
We took it apart...not one helical gear in it...made some cuts, dropped it right down for the customer.
Really wasn't anywhere to go with the line with the limited locomotive tooling.
The 1:24 cars worked perfectly with the 22.5, made a good mix.
I get boxes of whacked Delton freight trucks... coupler tangs cut off, knuckles gone. Used to buy the "T" sections and couplers out and fix them. Nice trucks, especially with metal Sierra Valley wheels.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I have to confess Delton was what got me into largescale from O scale. The styling era and detail really did it for me in the very early 1990s. I still have a special place for my 1:24, even though mostly I do 1:20 now. I still think the Delton long coaches were the nicest plastic coaches in largescale...just left behind due to scale, Hartland had discontinued them for more than a year. The latest C-16s are indeed bar far the best the tooling ever saw, well built, level, nicely done and good paint finish. Light-years ahead of the 1999 versions that Aristo first did. But I agree, that ol horse has bolted - the newest C-16s came 5 years too late. I doubt we'll see much of them again if ever. The freight cars may have some life yet. 
I had to buy one last of the C-16s, arrived today (Pacific Slope) - they did a really nice job of it. That'll be the last. Bought more for nostalgia than anything, but it is really well made. 

David.


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## Randy Stone (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember the Model T being worth 50-60 grand what, 30 years ago. Now a really nice stock on can be bought for less than 10 grand. And so has went the early 1:22nd/1:24th scale Delton/Aristo Craft line. If only Bachmann would have stayed with 1:24th for the Shays and K27s stuff, I think the Delton line would have survived. As I see it, the majority of new buyers in the hobby are either going with Bachmann for 1:20.3 or going current diesels and rolling stock. 
As for quality, China can produce some extremely nice stuff that runs like clock work. Why or who is to blame for the poor quality and poor running of some of Aristo Crafts products (Steamers mostly) we'll probably never know. But, with Aristo Craft purchasing such low amount of product, I'm sure they didn't have the position to demand better. 
As for being a throw away society, it is true much more than we want to think. You buy a TV for $500.00 and use it till the warranty is done. It fails and what do you do? You don't take it to a repair shop. **** you can't even find a TV repair shop any more. No, you throw it in the trash and go buy a new one because a repair would end up costing more than half a new one. So we have an engine that cost the same $500.00 and it breaks after running for 5 years. But we expect the company to have parts on hand to fix it. Sadly, I think we are going to see far less spare parts being available in the near future.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Rodney had a new 3'D printer at Marty's. He'd just gotten in and was printing off a figure. The plastic is really HARD, not like casting plastic. Maybe, in the future, some guys will print off common parts that break quite a bit. Could take care of some of the spare parts problems. The forums are good for finding parts. I've received/sent parts, usually just for the postage.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Nice trucks, especially with metal Sierra Valley wheels. 
There's a guy on evilbay selling Delton trucks - 5 pair for $25. (Right now, on sale 5 pair for $17.49!) 
Here's the link 
(I just ordered some the other day; they should be here today or tomorrow.) 
You have to supply the springs and wheels. For the springs, I use Hartford's .154" diameter springs. They come 8 to a pack, so one pack will do two trucks. Wheels? Sierra Valley, Bachmann... whoever's. 

Later, 

K


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

@Mike M. 

If you still have two of the Connie axles in stock, I would be interested in them. Drop me an email at narrowgaugek27 at gmail dot com. 

Bob C. 

Ps - I haven't been able to figure out the messaging on this forum.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By rlvette on 07 Oct 2013 07:23 AM 
I remember the Model T being worth 50-60 grand what, 30 years ago. Now a really nice stock on can be bought for less than 10 grand. And so has went the early 1:22nd/1:24th scale Delton/Aristo Craft line. If only Bachmann would have stayed with 1:24th for the Shays and K27s stuff, I think the Delton line would have survived. As I see it, the majority of new buyers in the hobby are either going with Bachmann for 1:20.3 or going current diesels and rolling stock. 
As for quality, China can produce some extremely nice stuff that runs like clock work. Why or who is to blame for the poor quality and poor running of some of Aristo Crafts products (Steamers mostly) we'll probably never know. But, with Aristo Craft purchasing such low amount of product, I'm sure they didn't have the position to demand better. 
As for being a throw away society, it is true much more than we want to think. You buy a TV for $500.00 and use it till the warranty is done. It fails and what do you do? You don't take it to a repair shop. **** you can't even find a TV repair shop any more. No, you throw it in the trash and go buy a new one because a repair would end up costing more than half a new one. So we have an engine that cost the same $500.00 and it breaks after running for 5 years. But we expect the company to have parts on hand to fix it. Sadly, I think we are going to see far less spare parts being available in the near future. 
Interesting. I nrecall when the bottom dropped out of the "T" market....old guys who had them new dying off in droves. We times it, and 4 years later sold our Model A Tudor for $6500 (interior not done...all else done...drive it home), next year a 31 with juice brakes and overdrive, complete, went for 3 grand.
Parts....boy.
I remember dealing with Bachmann on the Shay...when we had no parts.
The head guy in China reportedly (told to me by someone who was there) said, "We are not in the parts business. We make them cheap enough, when they break, you buy a new one".
I remember writing letters to China for Bachmann on this.
BTW, I still fix my CRT TV sets.
Last was a flyback.
TOC


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

In this day and age what is not a throw away even cars have come down to that. Cost more for the parts than go out and buy new. Now trains is a bit different story. Yep parts are needed and some one will come up with what we need just like the days of HO. Parts galore. Later RJD


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Rodney built that printer himself. He had two of them!


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Eventually the cost of 3D printers will get to the point where when you could just take something like a freight truck, just scan one with a 3D scanner and just keep a 3D file on hand, when you need one, you just use the 3D printer to create a new one. Yeah there may be some legal if's but then if your only doing it for your own use , its much tougher to enforce legal titles if your not offering them for profit.


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