# PRR E6 #460 The Lindbergh Engine



## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

*PRR E 6 “ ATLANTIC “ 460 Thanks Jason Novak for talking Bing at Accucraft into bring this Engine to Market.This Engine is a very important Engine to My Family because My Mother in Law was a Pilot and flew Mail Plaines with Charles Lindbergh.She had told Me when they flew they would flow the train tracks from town to town.Cliff has told Me if all goes well that We should have them for Diamondhead.Here is more info from the Penn.Railroad Museum.A good read and it has all the information including the right Color.*
*Again Thanks Jason Good Job Cant wait till I get Mine *


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

*PRR E6s Atlantic No. 460, The Lindbergh Engine*

*No. 460's vital statistics:*  

<LI class=em9>Engine weight 243,000 lbs. <LI class=em9>Tender weight 167,650 lbs. <LI class=em9>Cylinders 23 1/2 x 26 inches <LI class=em9>Driver diameter 80 inches <LI class=em9>Boiler pressure 205 psi <LI class=em9>Heating surface 3509 square feet <LI class=em9>Tractive force 31,275 lbs. <LI class=em9>Tender capacity, coal 15.8 tons <LI class=em9>Tender capacity, water 7150 gallons <LI class=em9>Atlantic Class wheel arrangement 4-4-2 <LI class=em9>Built 1914 at PRR Juniata Shops; retired 1955
Major claim to fame: spectacular race against a plane in 1927 








E6 passenger locomotive, as exemplified by the Museum’s No. 460, was the first major class of Pennsylvania Railroad steam power developed under carefully thought out scientific principles. Designed by Alfred Gibbs, General Superintendent Motive Power Lines East, the E6 was developed to cope with the heavier all-steel passenger trains that were entering service on the PRR in the early 1900s. Not satisfied with the K2 Pacific (4-6-2) developed by his Lines West counterpart, David Crawford, Alfred Gibbs set out to design a locomotive that would be less massive and lighter than the K2, but would retain the K2’s power output. He believed that the four-driver Atlantic type (4-4-2) was still a valid concept for the PRR’s high-speed passenger service between New York and Washington, but he also realized that the existing E2 and E3d class Atlantics were too underpowered for the new fleet of all-steel trains. 
Gibbs found the solution to the problem after studying the performance of the new H8 class Consolidation type (2-8-0) freight engine introduced in 1907, which employed the largest boiler ever applied to a PRR locomotive up to that time. According to his calculations, a similar-size boiler applied to an E3d frame would produce the desired results.
Starting work in 1909, Gibbs drew up specifications that duplicated the E3d’s cylinder size, boiler pressure, driver diameter, and firebox grate area, but called for a larger boiler to take advantage of the 55.5 ft grate area. 
In designing the new boiler, Gibbs worked carefully to achieve optimum proportions to meet the anticipated steam demand. The outer shell of the boiler was modeled after the H8, but internally, it differed, having 460 two-inch-diameter tubes that were 13 feet 8 inches long. 
Convinced that the K2 Pacific was much too heavy and thus sluggish at speed, Gibbs carefully calculated the weight on the E6 drivers to obtain an engine that was neither too light and slippery, nor too heavy as was the K2. Gibbs searched for innovative ways to reduce overall engine weight. One was the valve system that employed a "lightweight" Walschaerts valve gear and hollow steam-valves formed from specially heat-treated steel to provide strength.
To ensure that his new creation tracked well at high speed, Gibbs installed a novel suspension system that equalized the front pilot truck and the first set of drive, wheels separately from the rear drive wheels and the trailing truck. This resulted in an exceptionally smooth ride and greatly lessened rail head pounding by the drivers.
The first E6, No. 5075, emerged from the PRR Juniata Shops in Altoona in December 1910, closely followed by Nos. 89 and 1092. The latter was equipped with Young rotary piston valves in an effort to reduce fuel consumption, but it was discovered that complicated maintenance and high repair costs negated fuel savings, and the Young system was replaced by the Walschaerts valve gear.
Both Nos. 89 and 1092 were equipped with a superheater that produced a significant improvement over the initial design of No. 5075. Based on a Baldwin Locomotive Works device, the superheater was a system of tubes that loop back into the boiler flue tubes to further heat the steam adding more energy to the steam. The “superheated” steam enabled the engine to operate on less steam, reducing both coal and water consumption resulting in significant operating economies.
The effect of the superheater on the E6 design was astounding. During four years of testing at the PRR Altoona Test Plant, the superheated E6 demonstrated a 30% increase in power, with a corresponding 23% to 46% drop in water and coal consumption, depending on train weight and track gradient. By late 1913, the new E6 had been scientifically refined to the point where fleet production was justified. Following approval by the PRR Board of Directors, Alfred Gibbs supervised the construction of 80 more engines, which were placed in service between February and August of 1914. The first production locomotive, No.1794, was assigned to the Philadelphia Division for service on the PRR’s top “name” trains, including the _Broadway Limited_ and the _Manhattan Limited_. The Museum’s engine -- No. 460 -- was the last E6 to roll from the production line. Description of No. 460
The most noticeable part of the engine is its massive boiler which measures 85.5 in. diameter at its widest point. Designed to operate at 205 psi of pressure, the boiler contains 460 two-inch-diameter, 15-foot-long boiler tubes that provide 3,509 square feet of heating surface. A Belpaire-type firebox provides 54.7 square feet of grate area for the combustion of coal. Immediately below the smoke stack is a pair of 23.5 x 26 (inch-diameter x inch-stroke) cylinders -- one on each side. The smaller diameter upper cylinder contains the steam-valve that is operated by the lightweight Walschaerts valve gear. 
The valve gear enables the locomotive engineer to control the engine running direction and by setting the valve timing (cut-off) control the engine’s power. Looking at one side of the locomotive, the main drive-rod connects the piston-rod/crosshead to the main crank-pin on one of the two pairs of 80-inch-diameter drive-wheels. The axle-link (side-rod) drives the second pair drive-wheels. All running gear is carefully counterbalanced for safe operation at high speed. Immediately preceding the drive wheels is a two-axle pilot or pony truck with 33.5-inch-diameter wheels. This assembly safely guides the locomotive into curves and through switches. Behind the drive wheels is a trailing truck with a single 50-inch-diameter wheel set. 
The double-window cab is also a carryover from prior Pennsylvania Railroad engine classes. The E6 class was the last to use this type of cab. Also, unlike most of the engines in the Museum Collection, the E6 is not equipped with an automatic stoker. To the very end of their operations, the E6 locomotives depended on the strong backs of their firemen for coal supply.
Attached to the locomotive is its tender, which holds 16 tons of coal and 7,150 gallons of water. Known as a water bottom type because of the location of the water below the coal bin, the E6 tender was classified by the PRR as a type 70-P-66. This designation refers to the 7000-gal water capacity, passenger service assignment, and the 66-in, height of the firing deck above the railhead.
Two interesting features of the tender deserve mention. First, there is an air-operated water scoop attached to the tender floor and visible between the two trucks. Controlled by the fireman via a lever on the tender deck, the scoop could be lowered into a water-filled trough installed between the rails of the track at strategic locations. This enabled the locomotive to pick up water “on the fly,” thus eliminating the need for time-consuming water stops en route. Second, the E6 tender introduced a new type of truck assembly that was called the “dolphin beam” type because it emulated the sleek swimming motion of a dolphin as it moved over switches and rough sections of track. No. 460's life at work
After 1920, the E6 engines, among them No, 460, were relegated to secondary service, including the hourly ‘clocker’ locals between New York and Philadelphia. During this period, because of their outstanding speed characteristics, the E6 locomotives were also assigned to special charter runs. It was in this service that the Museum’s E6 No. 460 earned its lasting fame. 
*The famous race that gave it its name.* In May 1927, a young ex-Army Air Corps pilot, Charles A. Lindbergh, made the first successful non-stop solo flight across the Atlantic Ocean from New York to Paris, and thus became the world’s hero of the hour. Upon his return to the United States (by ship), “Lucky Lindy” was summoned to Washington on June 11 by President Calvin Coolidge for an official welcoming ceremony during which he was promoted to colonel and awarded a medal for his remarkable feat.
In those pre-television days, such events were filmed by news organizations and prints distributed to movie theaters across the country from New York where most news films were processed. Manhattan’s famous theater district usually was first to receive the newsreels, and producers sought to “scoop” the competition by being first on screen with the latest news. 
The International News Reel Company engaged the Pennsylvania Railroad to rush their film of the tumultuous Lindbergh reception ceremonies to New York by special train. To gain a “leg up” on their competitors who hired airplanes to fly film to New York for processing, International leased a B60 baggage car and converted it to a rolling film studio where the raw film was processed, edited, and copied en route. This enabled them to rush finished reels directly to theaters when the special arrived at Penn Station. (International had done this once before with films of President Coolidge’s inauguration in 1925.)
Any available PRR passenger locomotive could have been assigned to head the “Lindbergh Special, but E6 No. 460 was chosen because it was fresh from an overhaul at the Wilmington Shops. At 12:14 pm on that June day, No.460, tied to the converted B60 baggage car and a lone P70 passenger coach, set out for New York 216 miles away. With orders to run as fast as safety allowed, the special and its elite crew made railroad history. Within minutes of leaving Union Terminal, the train was doing 95 mph. Slowing briefly through Baltimore, it was soon back up to a steady 85 mph. At one point, an airplane chartered by a rival film company swooped down, buzzed the train for a short distance, wagged its wings in salute, and sped off north, presumably well ahead in the race.
The special, in the meantime, was forced to make an unscheduled water stop near Wilmington because the tender scoop failed to drop properly. The three minutes needed to take on water allowed the crew to repair the scoop, and the special was off again, roaring through Marcus Hook and Chester at speeds up to 115 mph -- the highest of the trip. Temporarily slowed by curves and traffic through Philadelphia, the train quickly regained speed, averaging 85 mph over most of the last lap to Manhattan Transfer, where it finally screeched to a halt at 3:10 pm. 
No. 460 had made the 216-mile run from Washington in two hours and 56 minutes -- a new record. A DD1 electric engine took over for the final dash under the Hudson to Penn Station. There, ten canisters of finished film processed in the baggage car were rushed by taxi under police escort to local theaters. Within 15 minutes of the Lindbergh Special’s arrival, scenes of “The Lone Eagle’s” triumphant return were projected on Manhattan screens—an hour before other films of the same event were screened, thus giving birth to the legend that E6 No. 460 had actually outraced the airplanes. 
After being cut from its train, No. 460, forever after known as the “Lindbergh Engine,” ran light to the Meadows enginehouse for inspection prior to its return to routine service. The locomotive continued to operate out of Meadows until March 1937, when it was loaned to the PRR’s subsidiary Long Island Rail Road, assigned to the Morris Park Enginehouse in Queens. A frequent assignment was heading LIRR summertime express runs on the Jamaica-Montauk Point mainline. These trains served an “upscale” clientele traveling to the various prestigious vacation communities on the eastern tip of Long Island. 
In January 1939, No. 460 returned to the PRR for service on the New York Division, although it was occasionally used on the Long Island as a short-term “loaner.” In the spring of 1942, the engine was transferred to the Atlantic Division, where it served on a variety of commuter and secondary runs between Camden and Bay Head, New Jersey, via Toms River. 
No. 460 was leased to the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines (PRSL) in 1953 for commuter service out of Camden, along with summer assignments on the Ocean City-Tuckahoe shuttle runs that connected with Philadelphia-Wildwood mainline express trains.
Back on the PRR Atlantic Division in January 1954, No. 460 once again returned to the public spotlight when it headed a widely publicized railfan excursion between Newark and Atlantic City. Specifically requested for that event, the “Lindbergh Engine” hauled several-hundred admiring rail enthusiasts on the last passenger train to traverse the venerable Camden & Amboy branch between South Amboy and Camden (the route of the original Jo/in Bull, a replica of which is displayed at the Museum). When the special reached PRSL tracks, the crew opened up the old locomotive, topping 80 mph at several points along the to Atlantic City. After returning the railfan special to Newark, No. 460 resumed its regular Camden-Pemberton commuter assignment until October 1955, when it was finally retired.
Retirement and Preservation
On January II, 1956, No. 460 was officially dropped from the active equipment roster and transferred to the growing Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Collection at Northumberland, PA. Stored inside an unused portion of the roundhouse, the engine was left to deteriorate by the financially strapped PRR -- then nearing bankruptcy. 
While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted. 
Meanwhile, an event was taking shape that would ensure the ultimate preservation of this and other now-priceless artifacts of the steam era. In 1963, the Pennsylvania State Legislature passed a bill establishing an official state museum of rail transportation. To be administered by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission (PHMC), the new facility was scheduled to receive a significant portion of the PRR’s now-extensive (and famous) historical collection of locomotives and rolling stock, including E6 No. 460. The remaining portion of the collection reportedly would go to the National Museum of Transportation in SL Louis.
When word of the pending disbursement of the PRR Historical Collection made the rounds, a group of New York area railfans, led by well-known enthusiast Ron Ziel, sought to persuade the PRR to donate No. 460 to a proposed tourist railroad and theme park to be built on Long Island. PRR Vice President David Smucker, citing an agreement to place the locomotive in the yet-to-be-constructed Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, referred the New York group to Bureau of Museums Director William N. Richards. Director Richards, in rejecting Ziel’s request for transfer of No. 460 to the proposed Long Island enterprise, stated that the PHMC would “stick firmly to our original plans and make No. 460 a part of the permanent collection.” He further stated that “this particular locomotive is of great importance to the series which we intend to display.”
With its future home thus assured, preparations were made to move No. 460 and the other locomotives in the collection to the new museum’s site at Strasburg. On October 4, 1969, a “train of locomotives” that included the “Lindbergh Engine” left Northumberland for the last time. Unfortunately, No. 460 developed an overheated pilot truck journal bearing and had to be cut from the train at Harrisburg. After repairs were made, No. 460 rejoined the collection at Strasburg several days later.
The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania opened its doors to the public in 1975, and E6 No. 460 was placed on prominent display in a highly visible location in the trainyard, along with a number of other Pennsylvania Railroad locomotives, including K4 No. 3750 and M1b No. 6755. However, the state still did not legally own the Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Collection because of complicated bankruptcy proceedings involving the Penn Central Transportation Company which had been created by the merger of the PRR and the New York Central in 1968. During the decade between the collection’s movement to Strasburg and the final legal agreement that transferred official title to the collection to the Commonwealth, the locomotives and cars in the trainyard gradually deteriorated under continued exposure to the elements. By then, No. 460 was badly rusted and its boiler jacket and lender in dire need of major sheet metal repairs.
In 1982, a volunteer Museum support group called the Friends of the Railroad Museum was organized and chartered the following year by the Commonwealth. One of the FRM’s specific objectives was to provide essential labor and funding to begin the cleaning, stabilization, and cosmetic refurbishment of the outdoor exhibits. In that same year, a Lancaster County rail enthusiast, William George Homer, teamed with Museum Curator Benjamin F. G. Kline to begin the removal of several decades of rust, grime, and faded paint from the E6. 
By the fall of 1984, with the help of FRM volunteers, the “Lindbergh Engine” refurbishment was complete. The locomotive had been thoroughly cleaned, holes in its boiler jacket patched, rotted wooden window frames and doors replaced, and coats of rust-inhibiting primer applied. New plates of sheet steel were welded to fill the long gashes on both sides of the tender. A 1920’s style headlight and marker tights were installed, along with a replicated steel keystone number plate and builder plates (the originals are secured inside the Museum). 
READ THIS::After several applications of standard PRR Brunswick Green paint, No. 460 once again resembled the famous “Lindbergh Engine” in its prime. To further commemorate its memorable feat, No. 460 was removed from the place it occupied for so many years and was coupled to a refurbished B60 baggage car and a P70 coach located on the main display track along the trainyard fence -- a reincarnation of the illustrious _Lindbergh Special_ that ran to fame in June of 1927.
Since then, it has been relocated several times on the museum property, and has undergone additional restoration work. In 2008, with its asbestos cladding having been fully removed to current standards, the Friends of the Railroad Museum once again demonstrated its commitment by undertaking a special fund raising campaign to complete the full cosmetic restoration of this amazing locomotive.














Administered by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission
Assisted by the Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania​
















​


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

bob, about a 3 weeks or so ago, i went to a railroad conference held by the RR museum of PA. they said (when i talked to them) they were just putting the finishing touches on her(headlight, bell, whistle, cab fixtures, ect. by now she should be done. i also found out they are starting to build the roundhouse this spring.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Great News Nate,I can't wate to get Mine..They put it on the floor November 5th


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

*IF YOU WANT YOUR E6 THE RIGHT COLOR Call CLIFF or Your Dealer and He can get You’r 460 the right paint job,Not the Long island Black.This is to important to have it the wrong color.Should be Brunswick Green.*


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Being this thread needs clarification, we choose two time periods with this build. The later 1950s for the 460 and the early 30s for the 1794. It allowed us to have electric lighting on both versions as previous to the start 1930s rebuilds of all the E6s they had oil lamps and no electrification..

In the late 1940s and early 1950s the locos were black until then were removed from service. They were repainted again in the late 40s to black and they also painted the roof and the tender top black too. 

As to the PROPER color it varied over its life in different decades. FYI, when LIRR had the 460 it was never repainted and retained the PRR number and lettering on the tender. So being that Accucraft decided to restrict us to only 2 paint colors we choose the Black 460 as the museum when I was there 2 years ago and consulted with them it was being painted in black and yellow lettering for display. We decided to match that display at that time. 

Being I was privy to have free range of the shop and the storage area, I saw first hand the original color paint that was removed from the loco before they stripped some of the parts. IT WAS BLACK not GREEN. The old paint matched the black data that I got from multiple sources and historians. Attached is some of the boiler parts that were still painted in the old 50s era paint. 

So now there is 3 versions of the E6s available. and totals 6 different Sku numbers for the factory. All 3 have the option of Gas or Alcohol. I pray that the factory can now keep the 460 straight in parts with green and black parts all looking the same. Of course this is all in the month that the loco is being built so nothing like demanding changes in production.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Actually the PRR paint scheme was established as:
PAINT COLORS FOR PRR LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS As of October 8, 1929

DARK GREEN LOCOMOTIVE FINISH
*All Locomotive Wheels, *Trailer Truck Frame, Pilot, Wooden Pilot Beam, Cylinder Head and Steam Chest Casings, Cylinder Jackets, Boiler Jacket (including inside Cab), Headlight, Bell Frame, Sand Box, and Dome, Air Reservoirs, Running Board Facing Strips, Cab Exterior, including Doors, Valve Motion (Painted Parts), Tender Cistern Exterior: Sides, Back, and Front End (except Coal Space), also Molding Strip between cistern and frame, Tender Frame (wood)

BLACK​ All Locomotive Wheels, Trailer Truck Frame, Steel Pilot Beam, Pilot Beam Braces, Round Number Plate: background, Engine Truck (except wheels), Frames and Braces, Hand Rails, Running Boards and Brackets (except facing), Steps, Pipes and Fixtures, Brake Rigging, Deck Plate, Tender Frame (steel), Tender Steps, Tender Trucks and Wheels, Tender Coal Space
NOTE: *Dark Green and Black were Optional for Locomotive Wheels and Trailer Truck


PRR did not paint locomotives black at any time. Photos can be misleading: When they are dirty....they just look black from coal dust/cinders along with road grime from service use.


Actually the locomotives at the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum as well as all PRR locomotives were not painted black or "Brunswick Green." They were painted with what the PRR called DGLE or Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. To make DGLE they added a small quantity of chrome yellow to a LOT of black paint. The locomotives looks rather black....but in sunlight you can definitely see the green tint.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Charles,I will send You the two pictures Martin sent Me,I can not get them to post.Will You please Post them. Thanks




*From:* Martin, Allan
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 02, 2016 3:33 PM
*To:* mailto:[email protected] 
*Subject:* Locomotive #460












*Bob,*

*Here is the photograph I spoke to you about. This is as of August 2, 2016.Bob the Engine looks Black in the Picture BUT it is Brunswick Green.Hope this help’s Tell Your Friend Cliff can call Me any time on information on this locomotive.Hope this sets it all strait.The Locomotive will have its Debut here at the Museum on the 5th of November,Bob please tell Cliff not to Share this Email with no one till the 5th*


Allan Martin
Curator II
Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 15
Strasburg, Pa 17579


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps,
You need not fear, there will be a dark green #460 as well, following the museum's final restoration. A little background - at the time we developed the drawing sets for the model, the #460 was in a lot of pieces, I had even hoped to see it back in 2011 when visiting, but alas, could not even get close to it. The Museum provided the erection cards for the E6 which we used to set up the detailed drawings, we also had their staff advise on the paint schemes, lettering styles, colours etc for the two initial liveries to be offered. The instruction at that time was indeed for a black loco for a specific era. We also had them referee my drawing set, and we added their comments into the drawings. That the final engine restoration was to the deep green is no problem for us if thats what is prefered, and in discussions even back then, there did appear to be a case for both. So go ahead place your order for your the dark green #460. Its one stylish loco!

Thanks chaps,
David.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David
That is a interesting development as to paint application but to what era, roadname and locomotive would have been painted black?
The 460 finished its duties just 3 blocks from our home. No. 460 was re-assigned to regular Camden-Pemberton commuter assignment until October 1955, when it was finally retired. We have film footage in color of it running on the line showing the final paint scheme in service.

Bob
As per your request here are links to the photos of restored 460 at museum:

PRR 460 Museum Front

PRR 406 Museum Rear

If one enlarges the photos then magnify the image with a focus on the front end of the locomotive and compare the black of the cylinder covers/pilot wheels to the dark green of the domes/boiler wrapper then it becomes apparent what areas were black and where DGLE was applied.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, Did you see the photos I had posted of the loco in the 50s? These were sent to me by the state archives as grounds for the black version. Was then informed that if you look carefully at the photos the tender sides and the tender frames were of the same colors and shades. Same went for the pilot deck and other parts that are well known to be black that matched the shade of the boiler wrapper. In the green images I have you can see the defined difference of the paint shades of the green to the black frames and such. Also you see differences to the paint on the cab roof along with the tender deck. 

In the end we have added a 2nd set of Sku numbers for the E6 and now there are 6 as I mentioned already. As I have orders for a good number of 460's I spoke to all these buyers and its a 50-50 mix of what they want so some will accept a change to green and some want the black. 

Any other matters on this loco can not be addressed this late in the production. There has been 3 years of wait for this loco and no real complaints until its being built. They are already being assembled and no further changes can be done. 

As to PRR archives, Charles I have the same 1929 data, issue is there is no further data from anytime after that, that is known.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jason
I understand the situation as to the history, your development process, etc. Just curious as to who and when the locomotive would have been painted black (i.e. by museum or PRR) and which locomotive? If it was PRR that painted it that (black) it would have been unusual.
Hope that all goes well with the offering of the E6.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

*PRR E6 Dedication at the PRR Museum of Pennsylvania " Watch Her at the end you can see her real Color" Go to 15.08*


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Just to add my two cents worth: The dark green loco enamel applied on the Accucraft T1 seems to me, so far, to be the best I have seen (I wish to precise that beeing European and not having seen Pennsy steam when it was in service, I have no claim at being an expert. However I did see the real Pennsy at the Liberty Bell NMRA convention in 1964) When viewing the engine broadside in direct sunlight you can just see that the Boiler is a dark bronze colour and the frame is black. However photos of Pennsy engines in the late twenties (IE before the 1929 crash) clearly show the fancy striping on drivers and pony wheel rims and spokes as well as the very elaborate tender lining. there are plenty of them in West's book. Also I am knowledgeable in SNCF engines like the famous Chapelon unified mikado 1-4-1 P (if you don't know what engine I am talking about there is a fine MTH model in gauge O available)and can witness the fact that when I saw them in action in the late sixties they seemed black at first glance (on account of all the coal dust sticking on the boiler wrapper with the steam oil). But when you looked at them for a while they started to be dark SNCF green at the cab and on the tender sides. However the first impression was black. I really think that there is a big difference in the way passenger road engines were maintained in the US up until the depression and after. Also around that time pooled crews started to be standard procedure wereas assigned crews would have kept their engine in pristine shape. I also witnessed that on late SNCF steam like the Chapelonised ETAT pacifics at Saint Lazare station in 1967 a few weeks before electrification and still in gleaming SNCF green with yellow striping and brass boiler bands. At that time liberation mikados were all grimy black, they were banalised the pacifics were assigned.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hey Bob: Thats exactly the colour I was talking about when I mentioned the Accucraft T1 You can barely see the green tinge. Or as Model railroader Magazine used to describe it way back in the sixties DGLE= 9 parts black one part green! 
Shake it and Cheers!


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## mocrownsteam (Jan 7, 2008)

*PRR Locomotive Color*

Charles,

Thanks for the information on the PRR painting practices. Over the years there have been many misleading bits of information in the model press regarding PRR "Brunswick Green" and how to model it. To the average eye they do look like "black" locomotives until the light hits them the right way and you do see the green tint.

mocrownsteam

Mike McCormack
Hudson, Massachusetts


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

As my profession was scene designer (BFA tisch school of the arts 1975) I was very involved with colour and how light affects them. I remember on two occasions having to repaint some flats once they were fitted up and lit correctly. Once was because the shop we had made them in, was lit with Sodium vapour lamps which modified the colour considerably. Another was with a shop lit with Neons, we repainted the flat lying down on the outdoor stage once in the Avignon Palais des Papes court yard, then when we fitted them up (vertically) we had to repaint them once more. It was because it was a reproduction of part of the real court yards back wall which was just behind it and we wanted the public to recognise that.


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## Nick Jr (Jan 2, 2008)

to follow up on du-bousquetaire's statement about lighting effecting look. A few years ago I painted my NW2 cow and calf Floquil Brunswick Green. In the house it looks black, but when brought out in the sunshine you can see the Brunswick Green, same is true for my G5. thank you.


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## Accucraft UK (Sep 16, 2013)

Brunswick green is a true black/green which is why GWR green is incorrectly described as 'Brunswick green' - the GWR correctly called it mid-chrome green, even BR never used the term Brunswick green!

Graham.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for that precision Graham I always wondered if Brunswick green wasn't the GW Railways green, now I know. It (midchrome green), like the SNCF green, is much greener than was DGLE on the Pennsy. Alas Aster got it wrong on the K4 it seems although I find it very fitting. Unfortunatly there are now very few people alive who could tell us of the livery before the depression on PRR. I think the PRRT&HS did a colour sheet for members a few years ago but they are out of them since I joined.


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Chaps,
Actually the Baldwin records of engines built new for the Pennsy tell us a lot about the PRR standard liveries from 1874 through to about 1929 including in the mid 20s a list of superior paint colours from specific brands recommended by the Pennsy. The Dark Green was always and only ever specified as 'Dark Green' to Co's spec, which started out in the late 1870s, prior to that it was always black since 1868. The Dark Green is actually preserved as a sample in the Baldwin Style book at Stanford, its a real dark green, but not so black as you'd think. That sample would date to the early to mid 1880s specifically. By the 1920s as noted the specs list the brands and specific colours from those brands for the colour, about 12 different options. some are indeed called 'Brunswick Green' by some of the PRR recommended suppliers. Just thought you should know. Certainly from 1878 onward there are no specified black PRR engines. All of them are the 'Dark Green' through to 1929. After that I have no more records and I know little about what PRR did in their own shops after that date. We also know a bit about line thicknesses and colours for the Tuscan styles on the tender sides and so on. The gold and white lines on the tender sides and cab sides are little changed from 1874, prior to that however the white line was red, dating back to the 1868 Cassatt days who started this PRR livery that would see little change in 50 years. 
David.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Check out the Engines at the PRR Museum,Look at the Electric and the GG1


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

David, thanks for points of clarification and records that can/cannot be authenticated. I have great respect for your level of work in any project you are involved with. Based on your finding of past records some more clarification has been brought forth.




David Fletcher said:


> Chaps,
> Actually the Baldwin records of engines built new for the Pennsy tell us a lot about the PRR standard liveries from 1874 through to about 1929 including in the mid 20s a list of superior paint colours from specific brands recommended by the Pennsy. The Dark Green was always and only ever specified as 'Dark Green' to Co's spec, which started out in the late 1870s, prior to that it was always black since 1868. The Dark Green is actually preserved as a sample in the Baldwin Style book at Stanford, its a real dark green, but not so black as you'd think. That sample would date to the early to mid 1880s specifically. By the 1920s as noted the specs list the brands and specific colours from those brands for the colour, about 12 different options. some are indeed called 'Brunswick Green' by some of the PRR recommended suppliers. Just thought you should know. Certainly from 1878 onward there are no specified black PRR engines. All of them are the 'Dark Green' through to 1929. After that I have no more records and I know little about what PRR did in their own shops after that date. We also know a bit about line thicknesses and colours for the Tuscan styles on the tender sides and so on. The gold and white lines on the tender sides and cab sides are little changed from 1874, prior to that however the white line was red, dating back to the 1868 Cassatt days who started this PRR livery that would see little change in 50 years.
> David.


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi everybody, yes thank you David for this very high level of research revealed to us all, especially for me: Sobering Pennsy fan living in France! 
I really would like to get ùy hands on one of those Pennsy colour charts published once a long time ago by the PRRT&HS.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Pennsylvania RR Brunswick green has an interesting story. Back in the late 1970s I got curious about some railroad colors. The local Dupont paint store had no information but gave me a toll-free number for the head office in Wilmington, Delaware. The man who picked up the phone there was the railroad paint specialist. We had a twenty-minute chat in which he told me the story of getting the color right when GG1 4935 was restored. Dupont had never supplied Brunswick green to the PRR. The Dupont man knew a couple of retired painters who had worked at the Wilmington shops. They told him that they started with a small drum of black made with carbon black pigment because it is actually super-dark blue. They mixed in enough zinc chromate powder to get the right color. No two batches were exactly the same.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Add to the nature of paint over time relative to DGLE and there is a case that during service the effect of the tone lessen and became more of a black hue based on pigment and the environmental impact:
Chrome yellow' paint pigments with lead chromate species that sometimes contain sulfate. They are known to gradually darken on exposure to sunlight, and understanding the degradation process is important to the storage and restoration of a surface where a mixture such as DGLE was applied.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

you beat me to it charles! i read that before and was about to post about this one article i read somewhere a year or so ago in which the pigment in the green the PRR would slowly oxidize becoming more brighter/noticeable over time.remember, the locomoives would also be covered in soot, oil, and thick grease, so they would have appeared black/ grayish.

BTW PRR brunswick green is 1 pint green to 10 gallons black... i think.

PRR brunswick green is just like "russia iron" or "D&RG pullman green", they all are still not definitive as to the EXACT color. 




.....how about we just paint it bright red!


hope this helps, Nate heffner


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Nate
"pigment in the green the PRR would slowly oxidize becoming more brighter/noticeable over time"
I believe that the change in hue over time with the exposure would be toward matte black not brighter as chrome yellow would have degraded over time.


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

As an aside to this most interesting discussion--does anyone know when spray painting was developed for dealing with these heavy industrial grade paints?

BTW--in my Pennsy experiences in the 1950's in NJ, all their steam appeared dull grime black, but the GG1's in mainline passenger service had a shine along with their matched passenger consists. Beautiful in the low evening sun!

Larry


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Having well known the SNCF fleet in the last years of steam. The which was dark green, much greener than PRR DGLE, I vividly recal how engines would get "blackened" by the coal dust being projected by the exhaust and the binder being the steam oil, which as we all know has the consistency of molasses, and therefore acts as a perfect "contact" binder. As I mentioned before the engines started to look green from the cab on. This phenomenon coupled to the fact that PRR engines (like SNCF ones) had periodic general repairs means that between those repairs whatever colour would have been applied in the shops would progressively be smothered in black, hence the photos showing black engines, especially when colour film became available and steam was on it's way out (so less maintained). I have even seen PRR engines in the fifties which had their smokebox door quite rusted over, and a far cry from graphite grey. I also recall seeing SNCF engines just coming out of those general repairs I even have a photo of a liberation mike overhauled for the strategic reserve I made in 1969 in Auray, it ended up in Switzerland as 1244, prototype for Asters oil fired version and they looked like an Aster U 1 or 1-4-1 R.
Anyways to make it short what I am trying to say is even if an engine came out of the erecting shops green, it ended up being black after some time in service, unless it was an asigned engine in which case the crews honour was at stake, and that's a different story, the NORD crews were notorious for polishing their locos buffers!
Cheers!


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

I just thought that I have a very good illustration of just what I mean in Classic Trains Special edition N°3 Streamline Pioneers 2005, where you can see on page 82 in the Otto Kuhler article a very fascinating photo of the John Wilkes engine a far cry from the nice painting in Billes forum showing her after a few months of service (yet in 1941 which is early, dieselification wasn't really getting into its stride back then). It is quite heavily weathered and there is much black smothering the red trim. Lets not forget that after the depression came the war where equipment was run down until it fell appart then dieselification. So 1950 s photos show engines having gone through all that or most of it. I think this illustrates pretty well what I was talking about.

While we are at it PRR DGLE is quite diferent from Pullman green which is dark all right but due to a great deal, of sienna or brown in it, wereas DGLE is just green and black or Dark Blue (which is what black often is) and chrome yellow, there is no brown in it. SNCF green is something else again with a dab of brown but not too much, and not like pullman green.


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

Check this Out


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> Check this Out


Amazing animation !


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## du-bousquetaire (Feb 14, 2011)

Does any body know the wereabouts of the Accucraft E6? It was supposed to ship in November. I am just wondering what is going on, maybe Jason has some info for us who are mouth watering about it. Merry Christmas to all,
du-bousquetaire


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## Vinny D (Jan 25, 2013)

I am thinking maybe November 2017......


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## dougiel (Jun 3, 2008)

According to Accucraft UK it is in production. Should be here in the UK in the New Year. Unlike the LMS 4-6-0 Black Five which appears to have been put back yet again.

DougieL


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