# Square Nuts & Bolts



## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

I've done a search and turned up nothing on the forum and I've done a Google search with no luck.

I'm looking for some miniature "square" nuts and bolts. I know they exist, because I have some right in front of me. Without putting a mic on them, the bolts are approximately 1mm in diameter and about 5mm long. The nuts are 2mm wide across the face.

A freind sent me a sample that were part of set that consisted short pieces of 5mm high rail and fishplates with the nuts and bolts to join them together. He has no idea of their origin other than Europe.

I have found the "simulated" nuts and bolts, but that is not what I'm looking for. I prefer the real thing.

Any leads will be helpful. Thanks and regards to all . . . . Ken


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

Ken, 
Sometime back in the early days of LS a fellow in Switzerland made perfect scale fishplates, tie plates, nuts and bolts. Didnt las long cause the price was too high I guess. Would be a bargin today. Also some one in Oz made a track system which I believe used the type of nuts and bolts you are looking for. They folded also. I have been looking for square washers and got a couple in a Micorfasteners order. Asked them for more and they never came across. You could talk to them. Real long shot though. 
Noel


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

Try these guys: http://galtran.com/ScaleNutsandBolts/ScaleNutsandBoltsProductPage.htm


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Noel . . . . I think the ones I have actually did come from Switzerland. I'm wondering if David Fletcher might have heard of the folks down in the Land of Oz.

Bruce . . . . I found the site you mentioned this morning when I was doing a Google search. The only thing they have that are square are "simulated" nuts and bolts.

Thanks for the help . . . . Ken


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## Allegheny (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

Galtran actually stopped selling nuts/bolts/rivets and associated hardware back in late 2006. The page referenced above is simply an archived one. 

Brian


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ken,

I hesitate to suggest this, but if you had square stock and a lathe, you could make your own.

Or, buy the round stock of the std diameter closest to what you want, thread it with a die, then take the square stock of the dims you want, center-drill it for a tap size, then tap it out and cut it to width. Or, thickness. Tedious, I know, but doable. You'd solder half the nuts to the threaded stock for bolts. Or glue/locktite 'em, if you want. (I'd solder 'em).

You wouldn't really need a lathe, but that'd make it infinitely easier. And you'd have what you want.

Of course, if you do this, you risk blindness & insanity.









Also, be aware that old flat nuts had a mild radius on one side--supposed to be the outside. The face against the washer was flat. 

Les


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## jlcop (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

try here: http://www.scalehardware.com/ 
John


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Les . . . . I laughed when you said "I hesitate to suggest this, but . . . . Actually, I have thought of that, or at least something like it. I have found threaded rod the size that I would need and I could drill and tape some square brass rod, and like you say solder a nut onto one end to make the bolts. But that would be rather tedious and time consuming. I don't have a lathe, which would help tremendously. 

I have this feeling that the square nuts are "out there somewhere" and I just need to find them. Just think, if I can find the nuts, with those and the threaded rod the rest would be a breeze.

At least now I know that I am not alone as someone who comes up the "these ideas" and isn't afraid to give them a try. Thanks for you input and support . . . Ken


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

John . . . . These are the folks that have the "simulated" square nuts and bolts. But who knows, something might be made from these.

Thanks . . . . Ken


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ken,

I'm glad you got a laugh, any way. I'm a retired tool & die maker. I've made lots of threaded parts over the years, so it's a natural thought for me.

I too suspect those nuts are out there. Finding 'em will be the trick. I'm looking also, even though I have a small lathe--it's a lot of work to make 'em up.

Consider/investigate using the really sturdy Locktite in lieu of solder. I'm no longer familiar with the various grades, but I'll bet there're a lot of guys on this board who are.

Opps, wife's rattling my food dish...

Les


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Have you tried Walthers. They carry brass nuts and bolts. Or try bob bits located Lynn creek , Mo. Later RJD


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

These guys have a great selection: 
 scale hardware  

This guy has great prices on scale nuts 
 brass scale nuts


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Jim . . . . Scale Hardware has some great products, but these are the folks with the "simulated" square nuts and bolts.

RJD. . . . Can you be more specific about this Bob Bits of Lynn Creek, MO? My search under Bob Bits has turned up nothing. Do you have a web-site or a phone number?

Thanks and regards . . . . Ken


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## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

I started a thread on this awhile back. Mostly what I use are 1-72 scale nuts by Walthers. With them I use a K and S 1-72 die 
to make threaded rod. I bought some regular 1-72 hex nuts onle to find that hole thruogh them is bigger than the hole in the Walthers scale nuts. I've looked over numerous tap drill and die charts but never found the answer. Has anyone else experienced this?


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

Ken, scale hardware has both simulated and real threaded, not sure why you say only simulated?


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Jim . . . . Check the list again. The only "SQUARE" nuts and bolts are simulated. The "real" threaded nuts and bolts are HEX head.

Chris . . . . You may be onto some there. I think I have located some threaded round-head bolts that will work for me and I might just be able to fabricate some square nuts. You've got the wheels to turning a little. I'll let you know what I discover.

Ken


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

Ah, I see, thanks!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Chris,

I think I was one of several who answered. I opined that you might have metric threads on one. You'll need a mike and a pitch gauge to find out what you have, as far as I can think at the moment. All that is on ebay for pretty reasonable prices. Or a dial caliper might even be better.

Les


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Kenneth: Sorry I got one of the letters wrong it should be Hob-Bits. The package only gives an address. Its P.O box 98 Lynn Creek MO. I got these at my local hobby shop. Later RJD


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

Ken, 
Look at Micro Fasteners products. Wide selection. 
Noel


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ken,
Check Phil Dippel's site,[Phils Narrow Gauge I think] he has square head nut/bolt pins in the parts section. These might work for you.

Chuck


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Les . . . . Just a curiosity question for you since you have machining experience. If I had some 0.080 square brass rod, how difficult a process would it be to cut little slices off the rod that are 0.030 thick. I could then hold them with some pliers, then drill and tape them as needed to get my square nuts. Mind you, I just scheming.

I have found some 00-90 thread round-head "bolts" that will work for one-half my application.

Chuck . . . . Phi's Narrow Gaugel only has simulate "square" nuts.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Pardon my butting in, but it is best (and a bit easier) to drill a hole in the end of the stock and tap it, then cut off the nuts. The major problem is the extreme waste in this method. The curf is wider than the resulting nut you cut off the end. 

I have done this (ONCE!) and I had a problem keeping the hole centered for any useful distance down the middle of the rod; thus I could get maybe 6 or 7 nuts at a time with a good centered hole, then the rest were too far off center (for me!) so I cut the already drilled rod off and started over. I also found that effectively ruining a length of threaded rod helped... I screwed a threaded rod into the hole and cut the rod up as I was cutting the nuts off, this kept the holes round and the starting threads cleaner, but it was often difficult to remove the small plug of rod from the resulting nut!

I have wondered if it might be easier to thread a bunch of washers, put them on a threaded rod, and then mill the resulting assembly to a square shape. Or cut a sheet of the proper thickness (you said 0.030) to the correct size and drill & tap the resulting pieces


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Kenneth Milner on 11/14/2008 4:09 PM
Hi Les . . . . Just a curiosity question for you since you have machining experience. If I had some 0.080 square brass rod, how difficult a process would it be to cut little slices off the rod that are 0.030 thick. I could then hold them with some pliers, then drill and tape them as needed to get my square nuts. Mind you, I just scheming.

I have found some 00-90 thread round-head "bolts" that will work for one-half my application.

Chuck . . . . Phi's Narrow Gaugel only has simulate "square" nuts.

Ken,

Weeellll... doing it with hand tools is possible and may be your best option. I assume you don't have a lathe or know anyone who does.What you can do is make yourself some sort of clamp-on guide for hacksawing. You have to clamp the brass anyway, so killing two birds with one stone ought to be doable. I assume you do have a bench-mount vise. If not, you can use a clamp on type, or even a big clamp from the edge the workbench to the far side of the wooden clamp-guide to hold the brass inside the guide to do the sawing.

The guide can be any block of wood that will fit in your vise/clamp setup. Drill an undersized hole and file out or haggle out to just take your squarestock. Note: if you make the hole too big, or it gets sloppy, you can cut a slot in one side or both for 'compressability' to squeeze the stock tighter. All you care is that your stock doesn't move around after you've clamped it.

Next, lay off (mark) one line farther away than .030". That's so if you wobble or miscue with the hacksaw, there will be enough material to file (dress) the nut blank to the thickness you want, and incidentally, get rid of the saw marks. You'll have to do this on each side after the first nut blank, all the subsequent ones will have saw marks and will therefore have to be thicker than your finished dimension. And the amount you mark off must take into account the kerf, the width of your hacksaw blade. Be sure to use the finest-tooth blade you can find, or a jeweler's saw blade. Make sure the blade is darn near as tight as a fiddle string in the saw frame, you don't want flexing of the blade. Make slow, steady cuts.

Don't put a fine finish on your blanks, after you get them sized and reasonably parallel to each other. Because now you need to mark for the center by drawing a line from each opposite corner, so you end up with an "X" in the middle. If you're off a tiny bit, it won't really matter, so long as you don't get too far out. Now, take a sharp-pointed metal punch (grind it down to a pencil point if you have to) and mark your center with a light tap of the ballpeen hammer. Use a light hammer, in any case--a claw hammer isn't exactly what you need. Now, look and see how far off the X you are. A tad, you say? Well, not to worry: just take the punch, angle it in the direction you want to 'move' your mark, and tap it again. You can 'walk' your mark to where you want it. Within reason. Satisfied now? Okay, put the punch in the mark and tap it harder to make a good crater. Doesn't have to be deep, just enough so your drill bit won't want to climb out of it.

Is your drill sloppy? Does it have sideplay? If so, you'll just have to live with it. Now, brass is 'sticky' or 'buttery'--it wants to cling and move rather than cut. A common machine-shop practice is to lightly dull the drill bit, works wonders, but on the sizes you'll be drilling, don't. Just use some light oil (3-in-1 is okay) and drill as carefully and perpendicular as you can. Take your time, those tiny bits flex. A feather-touch is what you're after. This is why a $50 Asian benchtop drill press is a good deal. They rarely have the slop in the chuck a hand drill has.

Well, I see I didn't explain how to hold the tiny nut blanks for drilling. (Old guy syndrome). Two ways leap to mind: drill a blind hole (one with a bottom) in a different side of your first blank. No need to waste wood. Now, take your piece of square stock--or you could even use one of your tiny nut blanks, and whap it hard enough to put an impression as deep as the nut is thick into the board. Now you have a nice nut-blank holder, except it will want to crawl up the drill bit. I'd use a thumbnail to keep the little rascal in place, drive and bend a small finish nail so it swings over and puts some pressure on the nut. In any case, before you drill you want to make sure that nut is not cocked off level. If it is, drive it down in the high place. It is important that hole goes in as straight up and down as you can get it. Go right on into the wood at your first nut that you drill. (the sacrificial one. The one you make all your mistakes on). Go perhaps 1/4" or so.

Now, take the nut out of the square hole. Might have to use an ice pick (ground down flat 'n thin) and gently pry it out. Remember, you want that hole to last before you have to drive another. You'll see that hole in the wood you just drilled. Now put a bigger drill in there, bigger than the tap, and there you have clearance underneath so your tap doesn't get fouled with wood chips 'n whatnot.

There you are, off and running. Don't get frustrated if you fail on a few. Especially if you make half a dozen great ones and then a bad one shows up. Change the drill bit. Rest. Get untense. check all your clamping and saw blade and everything. Then go at it again.

To tap USE OIL. Best if you use tapping fluid, but not necessary. Kroil is my choice. WD-40, etc will do. Do NOT put your tap in the hand drill. USE a TAP WRENCH. Start your tap carefully, making sure it isn't leaning. This is as much a matter of feel as anything. Good eyes help too. Twist it perhaps 45 degrees, and back it out. DON'T take the tap out of the hole. Now, advance the tap 45 degrees past where you were, or less, depending on how much 'pull' you're getting. Breaking taps is the only way I know of to learn how much is too much. I can say, if you advance only 45 deg or less at a time,before backing up, you'll have more luck in the long run. This backing up is calle 'chip breaking' or 'chip clearing'. Your tap will dent to crowd up with material. YOur threads will be nicer if you do it this way, too.

Don't buy cheap taps or drills. The good ones are only slightly more expensive.

Now, you're all done, and you have a handful of beautiful square nuts. If you want true historical accuracy, you need a shallower square hole and a very fine file followed with crocus cloth or aluminum cloth to put a very slight 'curve' to the outside face of the nut. And polish it. Lastly, drag each edge of the nut over the fine cloth enough to but a tiny bevel on it. Just the side that will show should be okay. Now you've got about as good as can be bought, anywhere.

Hope this helps.

Oh, the only thing a lathe would do for you is to make the 'parting off' cuts faster and cleaner, and you could center drill the stock for a good ways to eliminate hand drilling. Accuracy would probably be only slightly better for the purposes.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Ken,

Where I said 'your tap will *dent* to crowd up...' that should read *tend.* 

Sorry.

Les


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## Fritz (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi,

I think square nuts were very common before WW 1. If you look at vintage horse drawn coaches and carriages, they are held together with these.
If I remember right, I have seen these in the catalogues of UK model makers. 

OZARK offers these in whitemetal in different seizes. Most US trestles were held together with sqare nuts. 

Have Fun 

Fritz / Juergen


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Les . . . . Wow! Thanks for the tutorial. Believe me, I've filled this one away in my "great information" file.

I may approach a miniature screw maker and if the price is just too high, I will go with some other options. I'm still waiting to here something from Europe where the few I have were manufactured.

Fritz . . . . Ozark miniatures does not sell any real, threaded nuts. Only dummy ones for detail. Great stuff, but not what I need here.


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## chrisb (Jan 3, 2008)

I had tried to make some squnare nuts awhill back. They were for truss rods for a flat car. I used a die to thread each end of 1/16 inch brazing rod and drilled and tapped Ozark turn buckles. Making the nuts proved to be a problem for me. Using a small drill press with a fence/jig to center the bit on some 1/16 inch thich brass, my idea was to drill a series of holes, tap them and then cut each side of the whole. The drill bit would wonder and the hole would be off center. I think I tried to center punch these. When working in the 0-80 and 1-72 range, I was having trouble maintaining accuracy. The white metal turnbuckles were drilled on a mini lathe. I'm tempted to try this with steel.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By chrisb on 11/15/2008 5:55 PM
The drill bit would wonder and the hole would be off center. The white metal turnbuckles were drilled on a mini lathe. I'm tempted to try this with steel. 

Your experience is typical of trying to use a drill press to center drill a piece of stock. You almost have to use a lathe and you have to use a center drill to start. Any twist drill will hunt after a certain depth, even with a lathe. Especially for very small drill bits, it's kind of useless, but you ought to get at least a couple of nuts before the wander gets too far offcenter. 

If you mean drilling the turnbuckle holes to take a tap, you should be just fine on a lathe. With a lot of care and a good, tight drill press, you could even do it that way. Even at that, at least 'tip' your starting hole with a center drill just to keep things honest. The problem using a drill press is getting the nigh-perfect alignment of the axis of the spindle and the turnbuckle to coincide. A compound vise would be a big help, in centering. But if your spindle is sloppy, you'll not have a lot of luck.

One way of helping your drill press is to tighten all three jaw chucks to about the same 'felt' pressure. Don't throw a hearty strain on the first, then go around to the other two, either. Draw 'em all down equally. Sometimes you can squeeze enough accuracy out of a given setup to get away with it.

Les


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

*RE: Square Nuts & Bolts*

How many do you need? I spoke to Microfasteners as one time about square lag bolts but they are made for them but can have them made but at 20,000pcs min. The bolts/nuts are made onsite and can also be made custom didnt know what that minimum is though. What size are you needing also?


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Jason . . . . 

Personally, about 1,000 of the square nuts would cover all my needs. My main use is for bolting fishplates to rail at every 30 scale feet. But they could be used for other things as well. Truss rod ends, etc.

I was looking at 0.080" outside diameter drilled and threaded to 00-90. For the fishplate application, 00-90 threaded round head screws are available and would look good for the bolts.

Now, if I could only find 19 other folks that could use a 1,000, we might be able to approach Microfasteners.

Another option might be J.I. Morris. They manufacture miniature screws and nuts and will do special jobs with no minimum. I did notice that for 10,000 of their 00-90 thread "hex" head nuts, the price was only $55.00 per thousand. I would gladley give that for a thousand. I may call them tomorrow and see about a quote.

I may know two or three people that might be interested in a thousand. Is there anyone else out there that might be interested and we could go in as a group for a fair sized order? If so, let me know. Contact me directly at [email protected].


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## Kenneth Milner (Jan 30, 2008)

Fritz . . . . When you say you have seen these in the catalogues of UK model makers, are you speaking of the square nuts or the horse drawn coaches and carriages?

If it's the square nuts, do you think you could come up with a catalogue name. I know they are out there somewhere because I have sample here on my desk from Switzerland.

Ken


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## njp (Dec 6, 2008)

I've made a number of square bolts from escutcheon or banker's pins. These small brass pins are easy to square up with a pin vice and file.
Many pin vices have collets on both ends. Remove the locking collar from the end that the pins DO NOT fit in and put a loose fitting square nut on then replace the collar. This makes it easy to rotate the pin 90 degrees after filing one side. Slide it on the file or sand paper 4 times, do the other 3 sides. If it isn't completely square try sliding it 5 times then 6 or whatever it takes. I've gotten to the point where I use a 1" belt sander to speed things up. The stock pins make great rivets.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

NJP:

Brilliant solution, especially using a square nut for a fixture. Do you turn down the shank of the pin to some lesser diameter, then grind the bolt to suit, or do you make bolts, then drill holes with small diameters to represent the threaded end?

Les


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Ken,

Have no idea if the following company would be a viable option, or what the cost factor would be, but you never know until you ask.

Antrin - Product
Machine Screw Nuts[/b]

Antrin - Product
Min. Std. Mach. Run - Min. Stock Purch.
Prototype & Short Runs[/b]

Antrin Miniature Specialties Inc. (Home-page)[/b]


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Ken, 
I'm reviving an old thread, but I'm wondering if you ever found a solution to your problem, and what you did? 
Thanks, 
Craig


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

I ended up needing some myself and could not find any the right size. I ended up taking some 00-80 hex nuts and used my Dremel to square them off. 









One does have to be careful not to tighten them too much, as they will warp a frame...


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Bruce, 
That sounds like a possible solution. What was the final size that you ended up with? 
Craig


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## Bruce Chandler (Jan 2, 2008)

They ended up about 1/8" square


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Humm, that's getting a little closer. I'm looking for something in the .025-.030" range. I may just have to use a simulated bolt head (.028") that I found from micro-fasteners. 

Thanks for the info! 

Craig


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are interested in simulated bolt heads (as well as actual mini bolts, etc) check scalehardware.com. Bob there is great to do business with. 

Larry


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## bnsfconductor (Jan 3, 2008)

Correction- 
I said I found square head bolts from micro-fastener, but it was scale Hardware.com my mistake! To many names! 
Thanks Larry for pointing out my mistake. Micro-fasteners only carries hexhead, while scale hardware had hex, and square head. 

Craig


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