# Sound cards



## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

Im working on converting my locomotive over to r/c battery soon. Ill be using a system very similar to the crest revolution except it will be blue tooth controlled. So my question is do i really have any other options besides a Phoenix P8? Am i right in assuming the sound decoders that are out there wont be an option since its not a dcc system?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure, lots of options, how are you going to run it? i.e. pure dc, pwm, etc?

You did not quantify the quality of sound you require.

Greg


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## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

The locomotive will be battery powered. I'd like pretty good quality but cheaper then Phoenix would be nice.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

What kind of output does your controller have?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, that is the other question I asked... some sound boards will need additional options when fed from PWM.

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

> What kind of output does your controller have?





> some sound boards will need additional options when fed from PWM


Well, he said 


> it will be blue tooth controlled.


so I guess that means Bluerail [ http://bluerailtrains.com/ ] which is partnered with Bachmann.

I'm quite curious how it handles sound. Bob McCown over on LSC has been installing one for our education, but the handset/controller/smart-phone apparently produces the sound from its own speaker. Not very satisfactory.

Presumably, with a battery powered system, one can have a totally separate sound card fed by the battery and operated by local switches, chuff triggers, etc., that have no connection to the rcvr/throttle.

Or am I missing something? 
Edit: I guess it pays to go take a look. From the diagram below, the Bluerail system has 4 lighting triggers, which (I think) can be used to drive reed relays or other on/off switches.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pete, the output of a controller has nothing to do with the wireless control system.

Notice I said "sound card fed from"... so the connection between the receiver and the sound card.

Most likely it is PWM, which can be an issue for some sound cards.

Now if it is steam, often using a chuff switch will help.

I tried to get him to answer a question that would simplify the answers he wanted, not to give him a class on motor power output stage circuitry.

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> I'm quite curious how it handles sound. Bob McCown over on LSC has been installing one for our education.........


Pete,
Do you have a link to this thread on LSC?

I searched for Bluerail and Bluetooth and got only one hit bt it was a different discussion.

I'm actually initially interested in the actual range that can be handled reliably.
The Bluerail website states 100 feet - wondered how realistic this is in a "noisy" G-Scale environment.

Knut


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> Edit: I guess it pays to go take a look. From the diagram below, the Bluerail system has 4 lighting triggers, which (I think) can be used to drive reed relays or other on/off switches.


Pete,
From what I see in the Bluerail manual the four light controls can (at least now) only be assigned four specific functions:
on/off, flashing, ditch 1 or 2 and timed momentary.

None would be suitable if you wish to "play the horn" or even operate the normal horn sound when approaching a crossing for instance.

It's pretty obvious from the description on the Bluerail website that all the sound functions are built into the Bluerail add and are meant to play through the smartphone speaker.

As to connecting a sound module that is located in the loco (which was the original question), I think it's safe to assume that the motor output of the Bluerail receiver is PWM.
The Bluerail website has a lot of information about stall currents (which interestingly enough DCC decoders don't even mention any more) but nothing about the type of motor output.


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

How about this one BlueRail board?


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

**** Habilis said:


> How about this one BlueRail board?


Thanks,
I didn't realize there was no LSC search capability for the whole LSC forum - turned out I was only searching the LSC General Discussion section - that's why this thread didn't come up.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

To help answer the OP question I just emailed Bluerail re the motor output.

Their reply came pretty much immediately:
PWM at 16 kHz

Knut


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## Homo Habilis (Jul 29, 2011)

When searching one of these types of sites I use Google with a search phrase of something like "site:largescalecentral.com bluerail"


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The OP asked about the sound card.

You guys are off on remotely controlling it.

I think basics, will the card EVEN WORK from the motor outputs? What good is the horn/whistle if you cannot even get the sound to throttle up and down?

So, first, Diesel or Steam Mr. OP?

Greg


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

I think one really needs both - a sound card that runs off the 16 kHz PWM motor output AND remote control of horn/whistle and bell.

But.....if the built-in sound of the BlueRail system is acceptable, maybe the least expensive solution (if it can be made to work) is to place a Bluetooth speaker inside the loco and link it to the sound of the BlueRail app.

Knut


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> The OP asked about the sound card.
> 
> You guys are off on remotely controlling it.
> 
> ...


I see the confusion - you are _*diesel*_ guys. Steam engines don't throttle up or down! With steam sound, you don't need to connect the sound card to the motor controller. All the chuffing, etc., can be separately controlled. (Greg - no way are your lashups going to work on a board with a 2amp stall current! I'm planning to use one in a Bachmann spectrum mogul which I hope will stay below 2 amps.)



> From what I see in the Bluerail manual the four light controls can (at least now) only be assigned four specific functions:
> on/off, flashing, ditch 1 or 2 and timed momentary.


Knut,
I have had some success adding reed relays to the output of a similar board to provide high-power on/off functions that the board couldn't handle. While this board doesn't have a 'momentary', it looks like you can use a relay to turn on the bell or the whistle and then turn it off again, or use the 'timed momentary' to make it stop without pushing the button again.

Looks like you could couple a relay and turn the whole sound system on/off.


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Pete Thornton said:


> I see the confusion - you are _*diesel*_ guys. Steam engines don't throttle up or down! With steam sound, you don't need to connect the sound card to the motor controller. All the chuffing, etc., can be separately controlled.


Well Pete, depends how realistic you want to get.
The better DCC sound decoders will vary the steam sound depending on load - the chuffs will sound different going uphill that going downhill for instance.
Then you get the standing steam sound.
I don't think any of that would be available by just connecting the steam sound card to the rails and a chuff sensor.



> I have had some success adding reed relays to the output of a similar board to provide high-power on/off functions that the board couldn't handle. While this board doesn't have a 'momentary', it looks like you can use a relay to turn on the bell or the whistle and then turn it off again, or use the 'timed momentary' to make it stop without pushing the button again.


What I'm thinking of is the 'long-long-short-long' horn signal before a railroad crossing or the single and double whistle of a steam locomotive.
For all those one would need a function where the aux output is only turned on for as long as the horn/whistle button is pressed.
Bell is different - there an on/off function is fine but not for the horn/whistle.
Maybe BlueTrain will add a momentary aux output in the future - shouldn't be much of an issue.

Knut


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## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

It's not blue rail I'll be using. It's BluTom in development right now. Essentially the same board footprint as a crest revo but with Bluetooth control instead of a crest controller. So whatever output the revo has this one will have.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One thing I would consider is the range of bluetooth or any other transmitter/receiver system be it battery or track powered and even live steam.

My present track powered system can be controlled from over 150 feet away and my receiver is in my cellar at ground level!!


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## krs (Feb 29, 2008)

Range is definitely an important consideration.

The other is: What happens if the wireless link for any reason is broken?
Does the loco stop or continue at its present speed or ......
The BlueRail information I have seen so far says nothing about that.

Knut


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

flysooner9 said:


> It's not blue rail I'll be using. It's BluTom in development right now. Essentially the same board footprint as a crest revo but with Bluetooth control instead of a crest controller. So whatever output the revo has this one will have.


DO tell us more!


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## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/GScaleBT/?fref=ts


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting stuff - thanks for the link. I'll look forward to getting a Bluetooth system next year for my mogul. (I already have one live steam loco controlled by WiFi.)


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Phoenix, Dallee, MyLocoSound, and if you can find one on the used market, the old Sierra sound boards are pretty much your options for non-DCC sound. Phoenix is considered the gold standard, and you can get a P8 for around $170 give or take. Dallee makes a few different boards. I haven't played with their latest board, so I can't really comment on how it compares to Phoenix. Their older-style boards are good, but monophonic--meaning they can only play one sound at a time. If the whistle blows, you lose the chuff. I think they hit at around $120 or so. MyLocoSound boards are now a blend of digital and analog sounds. I think they're coming in at $80 or $90 now. The old Sierra boards pop up from time to time, but they're getting harder to find. I'd consider them something you can use when you can find 'em, but not something I'd make any plans to use on a regular basis.

Later,

K


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## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

ok im getting closer to buying a P8 to install. For wiring purposes just assume im using a crest revolution. My biggest question is how do i route the battery power? Is it possible to split the wires coming from the battery to the revo and to the P8? Do i need a completely separate battery? Can the revo itself send power to the P8?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you download the manual for the P8 yet?

Greg


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## flysooner9 (Feb 16, 2016)

ok hopefully last question is, any recommendations for the speaker. again this is going in a GP-38


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Visaton, www.parts-express.com

Look at my DCC install on the USAT F3 and you will see that they have speakers that match the molded in recesses in your loco.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Definitely, you can use the same battery for the Revolution and the Phoenix board. Just wire them in parallel. The P8 manual has a wiring diagram showing how to connect the two boards. Download it *here*. 

I'll echo the recommendation on the Visaton speakers. I've used them in a few projects, and I really like the sound quality. However, check to see if the P8 comes with a speaker. The speakers Phoenix uses are very good as well, and if it's included in the kit, there's no need to spend money on a new one. (Unless the Phoenix-supplied speaker won't fit the space.)

Later,

K


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