# Alcohol?



## dukebasketballer (Jan 13, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I am still relatively new to live steam. I recently acquired a butane fired Catatonk Heisler which I love. However, I am looking for a rod engine. I am really interested in Accucrafts GS4 and Asters Mikado, however I dont know which type of fule is better: alcohol or butane? I have not had any problems with the butane so far, but is there any advantages of alcohol over butane?

Thanks for the help guys,
David


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Your best bet is to contact Ryan Bednarik, he had worked wonders on both the gas and meths version. There are still many left new in the box at Accucraft


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Alcohol will work better with less work on your part when the outside temperatures are low, but then, not many people like to run a "toy" outside when it is below freezing!.

Butane (plain) won't vaporize at all at temps below about 32-deg (F) and even if the outside temps are higher than that, the butane will cool itself below that temperature when you start to draw off the vapor.  This makes adjusting the fire difficult sometimes.  You can use a butane/propane mix (which is quite common) which has a lower vaporization temperature.  Or, you can heat the butane tank (also quite common), by putting warm water around the fuel tank (that is why on lots of locos the fuel tank is in the tender water space!)  Some people even have a steam port to direct a small amount of steam back into that water to keep the tank warm.  Note, don't attempt to use HOT water to HEAT the tank, it could burst if it gets too warm.  Just keep it up to room temperature and the more stable the temperature, the better the firing characteristics of the engine.  As the temperature goes down the pressure drops and you have to open the valve more to keep the fire the same.

Butane does require you to have a deft hand on the fuel valve and some of them are rather touchy to get adjusted, but not so bad that you cannot quickly get the hang of it.  It does provide the ability to adjust the intensity of the fire with the fuel valve.

Butane can be shut off quickly, which is sometimes a good thing.  Alcohol is usually a valve that lets alcohol flow into a sump that then feeds the burner cups, when you turn off the flow of liquid you still have the sump and burner cups full and that can take a couple of minutes to burn away and the fire to go out.  Some people blow it out, saying that letting it go out due to fuel starvation is a bad thing for the wicks, but I have noticed no problems letting it go.  Some use a small CO2 cartridge (bicycle tire inflator) as a fire extinguisher, but I have always wondered about the stresses that might cause to the hot parts to blast them with the cold CO2.  People do it, so it must not be THAT bad, I just "worry" enough about it that I decided not to do it.

Butane is probably a bit easier, but alcohol makes running the loco a bit more like a prototypical operation... you have to have a draft over the fire to keep it going and to make it hotter; just like a coal fired loco.

Alcohol generally is just open the valve and light it off... you have little control of how much fire there is, other than the setting of the blower, but once the engine is underway, the exhaust provides the draft and adding the blower does not add all that much to what heat the fire can produce.

Personally, I like the realism of alcohol firing and having to remember to open the blower when stopped and close it when underway.  I have a 3 channel R/C and use the 3rd channel just for that purpose.

What little butane running I have done is okay, but I have not done enough of it to truely get the hang of it or to say for sure whether it is "better" or "worse" that alcohol.  I can say that LiveSteam is the way to go!  Battery and track power are just not worth it... period!


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

I like alcohol better.  It burns just right and burns quiet.  No tedious fiddling with a valve to keep the burner lit.  It is more of a "hands-on" fuel.  It requires an auxilary blower to provide draft though the boiler during warm up.  Once the boiler is hot,  the steam blower takes over until you are ready to run.  During operation the exhaust steam provides most, if not all the blower requirement.  Most alcohol engines have a mechanism in the fuel tank that maintains a constant fuel level to the wicks.  It's called a "bird feeder" and it ensures you have a steady flame thoughout the run.  They are really neat.

Aster "Mike" is a great engine.  Very powerful.  It has, I believe, the best boiler in Gauge 1, very steady steam producing boiler.  They start off with no trouble.  Runs strong.  It gets my vote.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Alcohol is my favorite fuel too.  It requires more effort then butane, but the lack of burner noise and the added realism of a blower makes it worth it to me.  The Aster Mikado is hard to beat.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I have only got two Aster locomotives, both pretty old, although one has only been run three times in its 25-year history so far.  The BR78 has been the subject of a thorough rebuild in the fuel and throttle area, to make it less twitchy - a fault that I believe is common on this strong hauler, and my BR01 had the revised four-wick burner installed by the original owner many years ago.  Again, it has a simple Smithies-type boiler, is a very strong steamer and has a tirleess and dependable performance - I simply don't have enough to put behind it to give it a real test.

Both are alcohol-fuelled, and the only sound that comes from them is the sound of a real steam locomotive working.

I have four other live-steamers, all gas-fired, and therefore producers of unrealistic amounts of noise until you get used to them.  They range from a Garratt down to a two-cylinder Shay, and I love them all.

As for the Aster Mike, it is my belief that few models are better - a movie of one hauling around 40 or so freight cars here in UK is commonly used to show its prodigious hauling powers - all self-started, too.  

Steam?  There's nothing like it - gas or alcohol.

Best

tac the Griper
www.ovgrs.org


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## zephyra (Jan 2, 2008)

I love alcohol! (And I'm teetotal when it comes to imbibing personally!) I've never really got to grips with Butane - my Roundhouse Darjeeling scurries round the track with the roar of a jet airplane and the butane control is so sensitive that either the flame goes out or the safety is always blowing. My butane powered GS4 has twin burners and I singe my eyebrows every time I light up. And the less said about my Catatonl Shay, the better.

Only snag with Alcohol here in the USA is finding stuff that doesn't produce noxious fumes....

Robert


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## dukebasketballer (Jan 13, 2008)

I like the way alcohol sounds, or should I doesnt sound. Hearing the chuff more clearly is a huge advantage and I do not mind a more involved job of raising steam. I have heard a lot of praise regarding the Aster Mikado, but I like the looks of the GS4 a little better. Is the quality better on either engine? Are there any major downfalls to either engine? 

Thanks, 
David


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

The Aster Mikado as supplied is rather plain.  If you build one, (or Aster could build one for you) get the detail kit and axle pump and add them as you build.  With the detail kit installed, the Aster Mike has all the pipes and added detail of the real ones. This being said, there are many out there without this added detail and they run just as well, and to their owners look great too. As far as the GS4, if you are talking about the Accucraft alcohol version..................they have had their share of problems. Charles or his son Ryan could clue you in on how to fix them.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear Mr basketballer - there have been many and good threads here about the rebuild of the Accucraft GS4 carried out by the Bednarik twins [tee hee]. Work required to make it perform to an approximation of the high standards of the Aster version is both complex and time-consuming, but the younger of the Bednarik twins is a dab paw at it by now. 

A friend of mine has the gas-fired version, and has found that the axle-pump cannot keep up with the boiler, and that the hand-pump is not man enough to pump into a pressurised one. 

If you ever find an Aster GS4, sell your family into slavery or rent out a kidney - the $10k will be worth every cent. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif 

tac the Griper 
www.ovgrs.org


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

The options Aster Mike and Accucraft GS4 as to making a decision on purchase of an alcoholcould easily come down to dollars and "sense." Most of the Aster Mikes run well out of the box. The Accucraft will need several key upgrades on its functional components: combination levers, suspension, timing, water delivery setup, rods,wicks/nozzle, etc that will make the competitive/comparible price of the GS4(alcohol) to Mike will require one to shell out a few dollars more to make it function efficiently and effectively. 
Bottomline: Aster Mike hassle free RTR but building kit and add details a bit of work and cost for detail kit. By the way: fuel cost- alcohol a lot cheaper if you can get good quality from a resource such as a race track, go-cart place, etc vs. Home Depot/Lowes, etc and the SLX brand. 
Accucraft GS4 requires time and money to retrofit above the base line cost. 

Regards alcohol/butane- only Accucraft GS4 gives you the choice. Most here have given the pros/cons to both fueling systems. I would only add that the base line GS4 gas is a better performer with less problems than the based line alcohol GS4 but still could benefit greatly from retrofits (particularly rods and combination levers).


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## dukebasketballer (Jan 13, 2008)

Tac, 

I would love to be able to spend 10k on an engine, but I am just a high school student and will probably have to sell almost all of my collection just to raise 5k or so. 

-David


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## Dave -- Use Coal (Feb 19, 2008)

In my opinion none of the fuels are better they are just different. 

I started off with a Roundhouse gas fired engine and now have: A) Three coal fired engines B) Three gas fired engines and C) Two alcohol fired engines. 

More than the type of fuel I believe you should consider wether the engine has a water sight glass and a method of adding water to the boiler when the engine is under steam. (Okay, so not all of mine do. But I would like for them to have these features.)


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems that the original thread in this post indicate two particular engines. Both have water glass and secondary water input devices (hand pump, Aster Mike base unit require axle pump kit installation). So, it the focus again would be placed on the type of fuel relative to model of interest.


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## dukebasketballer (Jan 13, 2008)

OK. One last question: I have a minumim radius of 6 ft and mostly 7.5 ft radius. Will the GS4 with blind drivers run on this track? Has anyone seen an engine of this type on this radius track? 
Thanks, 
David


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

the GS-4 with flanged drivers can do 10ft but its tight and slows it way down. So blind driver should go around 7.5ft but it will be very tight.


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

A question slightly off topic for all of you familiar with alcohol, I just got my first aster and of course it is alcohol fired. Denatured alcohol is what I see many people using but is that the fuel you can not see when it burns? I would like to know only because this is the first alcohol loco I have and I know that a fire outside the loco is sure to happen, so it would be better if I could see it before it melts things. At least until I am more comfortable. 
Thank You, and my loco thanks you


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, you want denatured alcohol (actually, if you could afford the taxes, pure ethonol would be best, but if you want it affordable, you get it "denatured" so it ain't drinkable!). If you use pure methanol, the smell is overpowering. 

Yes, it is basically colorless when it burns. It does show up well when you use a mirror to look up into the firebox as a good yellow, orange and sometimes blue flame, but in the sun light it is quite invisible until what it is setting fire to starts to burn, then whatever that material gives of is what you get. Of course, by then it is probably too late. 

I have heard of folk trying to add various things to the alcohol to give it a visible flame, but I know of nothing that works well enough to use. There is also the fear that the gases given off by the additive might be worse that what alcohol gives off. There is also the residue of whatever it is collecting on the wicks and such. 

People do put food coloring in the alcohol but that does not provide flame color. Our Brit friends use blue food coloring, but here in the states it is usually red. This provides two benefits... one is that you can see it better in the feed lines from the tender to the firebox and that helps you tell when you are out of fuel. The other is that you can tell the difference between the alcohol and water and are less likely to use the wrong one in the wrong place... alcohol in the boiler is probably a very bad idea! 

As long as you keep the loco/tender on level ground when preping the engine and starting the fire, you should have no overflow from the cups in the firebox, and thus no problems. But sometimes there can be a spill. The best you can do then is to fuel the loco in one place and then move it a few feet before lighting the fire. 

Many people talk about burnt ties and such, but I know of no one that has had a major conflagration due to a spill. I have burnt the wires from the R/C receiver to the servo I mounted below the smokebox when the draft was too low and the fire started hunting for oxygen outside the firebox./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif Apparently alcohol fumes are heavier than air and if the draft is poor it will flow down, burn there and then raise due to the heat generated and envelop the cab. The burning plastic insulation on the wires was quite visible in the amount of black smoke they gave off!/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif 

Keep a good fire extinguisher very close by when runing. I have also heard that a small bucket of water with a large beach towel soaked in it is a good idea. Water is okay to use to put out an alcohol fire, unlike gasoline and other petro chemicals. Alcohol absorbs water quite readily and that cools the alcohol to below the combustion point. 

Naturally, take care when playing with fire... there are also dangers when using butane (as many people will attest to!:w00t. Some precautions before hand are necessary and all is fairly safe. 

I have had a couple of MAJOR accidents with my Mikes and the alcohol spill from them was just a very quick flash of vapor and done. If you watch my YouTube video of "The Wreck of the CMBY RY #505" you can barely see the vapor cloud as the video fades to black at the end. See: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKxroW2VopU


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are two videos of the engines in question: 

Accucraft GS4-GW (modified Gordon Watson) 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va9X2dpLm7w 

Aster Mikado 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8mpRfa0DJA


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

A good thing to do is to always push your loco down the track a little before you lite up. This is incase any alcohol has overflowed from anywhere and has puddled under the loco or tender. I learned this lesson the hard way. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, Charles, et al.

Alcohol flame color is directly proportional to the amount of water and other solvents in the fuel. I find that the S-L-X and other "junk meths" at home depot and lowes is: 

1) way overpriced 

2) contains additives that hamper the burning characteristics (rubber cement for one) and make a horrible stink in even the most proper of drafted engines. 

3) Usually has up to a 15% water content 

PURE methanol (wood alcohol) will not emit noxious fumes, in a properly sealed draft system and combusts better with loose and mid-height wicks. Ther will be a slight odor when on the fan, but that is because the fan cannot draw enough air the keep the A/F ratio in equilibrium. Methanol also burns cooler than ethanol, by about 2,000 BTU, but is cleaner than ethanol ever can be (no soot output). 

PURE ethanol (corn/wheat/grain alcohol) Will emit a sweet odor that can be misleading to the parties at hand. Ethanol by all means has a higher BTU output, but that comes at a price, both in either very very expensive 200 proof 'shine, or in a rubbish blend of chemicals that should be nowhere near a alcohol wick. The exception being the "sunnyside" denatured alcohol, which contains ~90% ethanol and ~10% methanol. Unfortunately, all shelved denatured alcohol products will be impure in any form. 

For cheap good meths, find your local dragstrip or go-kart track and ask them for some pure methanol racing fuel. Most shops will end up giving the stuff away after a big event, as it absorbs moisture in large 50 gallon drums. Drag cars cannot run on less than 97% methanol, but 97% is more than acceptable for our little dragons. I could go on, but I digress. 

Kevin O'Connor has a comprehensive article on the benefits of either fuel: 
" am not a “tree hugger” and I do not have a problem with additives to products to improve their value or properties, but I do have a problem if these additives “seem” to affect the operation of our small scale live steamers; more on this subject in a later section ." 

*One last thing...food dye, either use a maximum of 4 drops or don't use it at all. This stuff will not burn and deposits in the sump, tank and wicks in the form of a caramelized solid. I have seen engines go through 4-5 sets of wicks PER year when the owner had "kool-aid" colored alcohol, whereas I use no food dye in the fuel, keep it in clearly marked bottles (red in color) and change wicks ONCE every 4-5 years. 

Look for a post on proper packing of wicks...engine specific of course.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, Ryan... I gotta disagree with you on a couple of items. 

I point everyone to the Kevin O'Conner article on www.SoutherSteamTrains.com (Click on "Reference" then scroll to near the bottom, and click on the "Alcohol as a Fuel" link.) 

I have my own anecdotes about alcohol usage in my Aster Mikes. I used Sunnyside (Parks Corp.) alcohol from True Value Hardware stores when I first started. IT STINKS! (as in Odiferous). It is what put me on the ground when I got a really good breath full of it coming from the chimney, well, I didn't actually make it to the ground as I had a nice lawn chair right there, but I sat in it for quite a long time while my loco was blowing off and my chimney fan got really warm... when I managed to remember where I was and what I was doing, I shut it down and didn't get to play that day. 

I found a gallon of S-L-X at a "Surplus/Distressed merchandise" store not long after reading O'Conner's article (there were no Home Depots around here at the time) and decided to give it a try. The can was RUSTY on the bottom, so I know it was OLD and probably had absorbed a lot of water... but it was CHEAP! 

I very hesitantly sniffed at the chimney while using it and had NO ill effects. The odor was much different than the Sunnyside stuff. I "think" my engines run better using it, but that may be psychological given the difference in odors and "EFFECTS" on me. 

I went back to the Surplus store and bought all the gallon cans they had (8 of them) and I used them ALL... no problems with low BTUs due to the age of the stuff or the rusty cans... one was rusty INSIDE and the alcohol had to be filtered through a cloth. (I'm a "thrifty Yankee"... or just plain cheap!) 


I use Red food coloring and I usually put just a few drops in a gallon of alcohol. BUT, one time I could not get the bottle to "drip" so I tapped it with my finger and dumped half the bottle in the gallon... I didn't have "Pink" alcohol... I had "RUBY RED" alcohol!!!! (Purty stuff!) 

Yes, my wicks are a lovely shade of reddish purple, but I am still using the same wicks I had when I built the locos... I did do experiments for about a year with my first engine, trying fiberglass, fire-brick and stainless steel mesh; but I found that the original wicks worked the best. I have not changed them after I went back to the original set on that one engine and the other is now about 4 years old and it has aways used the same set of wicks. I run at least one of the engines for 2 or 3 hours every Sunday afternoon (8 or 9 months of the year)... (well, I used to, but lately I have not run quite that often... just too busy with other things since I retired and now I need to rebuild my elevated track structure so I won't be running much this summer). 

I have yet to find any go-kart or drag strip that will give, OR sell, me any fuel (without an ATF permit) except at a price that is much above the cost of S-L-X at Home Depot. I have a Home Depot now and the have to keep restocking that shelf for me. 

Unfortunately, I understand that S-L-X has changed their formulation and it may not be as good as it once was... and I will probably find out after I get my track fixed, because I am really low on the stash I had (I believe I have gone through about 14 gallons between the two engines, but I usually run just one of them most of the time... the newer one is just held in "reserve"... I one I run the most is the one that has had the FOUR horrendous wrecks). 

Those are my experiences... your mileage may differ.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Again, bottomline, alcohol with out additives is better than those with additives. Secondly, I cannot image it is better to spend $14 per gallon (SLX) vs. $3.75 per gallon (racing meth).I found that Sunnyside has the less offensive smell of sweetness- given it has more ethanol based in it's formula vs. SLX. The tells of the smells vary in accordance to one's sensitivity or in my cast the lack of olfactory function- I probably only react to the "sweetness" of alcohol firing! 

Lastly, have changed out many, many wicks from various customers that have crusted over with a "red" glaze due to dye caused by too many- a "few drops per container bottle" vs. coloring a larger gallon container resutling in low flame/fire btu output. I would rather color the bottle red and marked alcohol or get a container that is red and made for alcohol (I'll have to look up the Utah based sporting goods store that has an excellent container)than put any more ingredients into the fuel system. 

Interesting that Kevin's article speaks to the danger of alcohol firing regards health, seems as if our hobby is one that "damned if we do and damned if we don't (even butane gas during filling is dangerous to one's health).


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## Rob Meadows (Jan 6, 2008)

Let me get this straight Ryan, you want us to drive to a racing track, and beg borrow or steal what ever methanol racing fuel we can find. The cost of gas to get there and back alone would make racing fuel uneconomical. 
I've been using SLX for years without any problems. Flames are blue, burns hot and fumes are not bad. Not to mention, I can pick it up at the local Home Depot just down the road. Most of the guys I steam with in California use SLX and we all arrived at this fuel independantly through our own experiences. 
As for food colouring, I don't use it because I leave the fuel in the manufacturers can where it is clearly marked Denatured Alcohol and sealed against absorption of water.


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## JEFF RUNGE (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not had any "given" to me, but the go-cart shop (they specialize in racing carts) always has a good supply in their shop, The last time by it was up to $5.00/ Gal. $4.50 if I bring my empties back. I try to keep an empty in the trunk so any time I'm passing buy I pick up a gallon, no extra travel required..


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Rob 
Each to his/her own as to alcohol if it is convenient to you so be it. We have used all three types of alcohol and do so according to availability but with a preference. 
There is no beg, borrow or steal. As long as one is a paying customer then they will fill up your container as well as those of the racers without a problem. As per cost of gas, most of us get 20 miles per gallon therefore the break even point depends on the distance, so the break even point might be around 3.5 gallons or 70 miles of driving to and from as a limitation to one's choice. Suggesting but not telling you what to do...(as I read Ryan's post I do not believe he told you that you had to purchase meth only where it could be obtained)as you seem to imply the only way to get the fuel is via a solo drive. Where there is a will there is a way. One could combine the trip with other chores necessary in travel to get the fuel, thus not wasting gas on a single purpose trip. Another way to obtain it is a group purchase as we do having a member of our club take our 5-10 gallon containers to the track to fill and chip in for fuel cost for the drive. 
Either way one has to drive to and from for any fuel source (unless one utilizes some from the downstairs potato distillery- maybe not too far fetched of an idea if it was cost effective, i.e. stale beer from parties..http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/ae/ae-117.html). 
So, in the end it may in fact cost me $14 per gallon (including gas for car)if I made a single trip out and back for the sole purpose of racing fuel but I will have a fuel with less additives and "junk" Just remember:high BTU may still cook that pot of coffee slower than one with low BTU, if the latter is faster to lighten up and get a good burn.


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

All, 
So sorry I asked the question, my intensions were not to start a fight over which is better. I just needed some information (i got nun-the-less) again sorry for starting this fight and thank you for the information.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill 
Really do not see it as a fight but a discussion as to options and available sources. Hope that in Las Vegas you find all the "alcohol" you need....for the engines!


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Rob Meadows on 04/01/2008 7:13 AM
Let me get this straight Ryan, you want us to drive to a racing track, and beg borrow or steal what ever methanol racing fuel we can find. The cost of gas to get there and back alone would make racing fuel uneconomical. 
I've been using SLX for years without any problems. Flames are blue, burns hot and fumes are not bad. Not to mention, I can pick it up at the local Home Depot just down the road. Most of the guys I steam with in California use SLX and we all arrived at this fuel independantly through our own experiences. 
As for food colouring, I don't use it because I leave the fuel in the manufacturers can where it is clearly marked Denatured Alcohol and sealed against absorption of water.




Rob, 

With as much respect as I can muster: 

NEVER did I say to beg/borrow/steal the methanol. What I purely meant was that most drag strips/racing stores (I find it hard to believe that there are none within a 30 mile radius of you) are more than glad to off-load fuel for a cheap price (around 3.75 a gallon here in the Delaware valley). Where did you get that I would condone stealing? You really should re-think your wording before calling me out here. 
S-L-X is over priced when I can easily pick up a five gallon container of methanol for the same price. Let me ask you: Which is cheaper? spending the same amount of gasoline in your car to drive to a racing shop ($4.00 per gallon) vs. the hardware store ($14-15.00 per gallon). Now, I am no statistics major, but 4.00 per gallon of fuel that I know has little to no water or other additives in it seems to be the smarter choice. 
I did not condone that S-L-X is a bad fuel, just that I have had better success with the meths from the race shops (guess I'm cheap too!). I don't know about you, but between testing engines, and giving fuel to others a steamups, along with running several months out of the year, we easily burn through a five gallon container. 

Bill, 
This debate has been on-going for quite a few years now, It's not your fault. You should be able to find either source out in Vegas with ease.


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## Rob Meadows (Jan 6, 2008)

Charles, 
Ryan made the assertion that SLX is both overpriced and junk, which I feel is an unfair dimisal and inaccurate. My point is this, there are other costs to be factored in when obtaining racing methanol as opposed to a trip to the local hardware store. 
As stated above, SLX works just fine, I have not changed wicks for years, I make plenty of steam and my safety blows off regularly. 
If anyone is new to the hobby, and wondering which fuel to use, you donot need the most purest to run your engine. 
But as you say Charles, to each their own.


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill - I can confirm from personal experience that you can run your particular engine on either. I mostly used SLX for Asters, unless I find they make more steam than necessary. Then I use Methanol. Or if I happen to be near the race shop, in which case I buy a few gallons. For me, if I am not pulling 50 cars, I would use Methanol cause its cheaper. 

Let me repeat, I know for sure that your engine will run on either just fine. 

John


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear All - We don't have a problem about colouration here in yUK - the stuff we buy to fuel our little steamies is dyed a natty shade of purple. Not for safety reasons y'unnerstan', but in a vain attempt to prevent the less fortunate members of our society [and I don't mean a model railroad society] from buying it for consumption under the nearest overpass... 

As for going to the nearest drag-strip here in UK, I wouldn't know where to start looking. I think there is one called Santa Pod, or summat, but it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there. 

OT, but for those of you who may from time to time be accused of over-indulgence of bottled oblivion, here is my late Great Uncle Jack's lightning pick-me-up from his WW1 days. 

1. Obtain a ten-ounce glass and three-quarters fill it with 'California Syrup of Figs' - a well-known muscle relaxant. 

2. Top up with at least an inch and a half of methylated spirit [alcohol to the American reader]. 

3. Drop in four Alka-Seltzers, and wait until the froth comes over the top of the glass. 

4. Drink down in one. 

Jack used to tell me, when I was a gibby, of how this would near raise the dead, if the application was quick enough. His old pal, L/Cpl Bertram 'Grubby' Malone, had his head blown off twice in a day, but was fine after taking Uncle Jack's lightning pick-me-up. 

tac the Griper 
www.ovgrs.org


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## rbednarik (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Rob Meadows on 04/01/2008 8:52 AM
Charles, 
Ryan made the assertion that SLX is both overpriced and junk, which I feel is an unfair dimisal and inaccurate. My point is this, there are other costs to be factored in when obtaining racing methanol as opposed to a trip to the local hardware store. 
As stated above, SLX works just fine, I have not changed wicks for years, I make plenty of steam and my safety blows off regularly. 
If anyone is new to the hobby, and wondering which fuel to use, you donot need the most purest to run your engine. 
But as you say Charles, to each their own." border=0>




Rob, 

Once again, I did not say that using S-L-X would hamper the preformance of the wicks, rather that food dye will cause the carmelization of the wicks if run in too much concentration (kool-aid colored). 

I haven't used S-L-X for quite a number of years (around 4 I think) because here in Jersey, the cans were fairly out dated (read: rusted through) and when burned, gave very poor results, hence calling it junk. Have they changed their formula? Probably, but I will stick with my fuel...some like wine, others like beer, as has been said, there are two ways to skin the cat.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Bill: Don't worry about "starting a fight" The topic of alcohol fuel always started a "heated" debate. If you want a real fight, start a discussion on steam oil. 

SLX Denatured alcohol from Home Depot or Lowes works perfectly fine. Unless you live near an NHRA track, racing fuel is simply not an option. It's no big deal. As for food coloring, if you really need it, 2 drops per gallon is way plenty. 

Hi TAC, good to see you. Let's try Uncle Jack's recipe. I'll wear a "nappy" just in case 

Bob


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## NHSTEAMER (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you John, that helps! 
Bob thank you, that one I will not even try to ask, I know better!


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Alcohol container that I would recommend: 
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/trangia-fuel-bottle.html 

Check around for prices and shipping costs.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By NHSTEAMER on 04/01/2008 1:16 PM 
Thank you John, that helps! 
Bob thank you, that one I will not even try to ask, I know better!" border=0>" border=0>

Oh well, it ain't April 1st anymore, so I have to take the colossal April Fools joke out. 

Those that didn't get it read on April 1st, sure missed out on my excellent humor! 

Too bad, so sad.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, I understand that S-L-X has changed their formulation and it may not be as good as it once was... 
________________________________________________________________________________________ 
I hope that this is not true. I have used SLX since I got into this hobby with great results. I would hate to find out that they are now loading their product with garbage like most of the others. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/pinch.gif" Say it aint so.................................... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif"


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a safety fact sheet of information about the product: 
as of 2004 
http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/SLXDENATURED.pdf 
as of1985 
http://www.wku.edu/msds/docs/slx_Shellac_Thinner_Klean_Strip.pdf 

There is a change in the formula... 

BTW- Butane fired engines here is your data sheet: 
http://www.petroprimus.ru/pdf/SDS_Primus_2202_2207_EN.pdf


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## switchback (Jan 2, 2008)

A colleague who uses methanol to make biodiesel just handed me a 12 fluid oz plastic bottle of gas line antifreeze that Walmart is selling for $1.00. Guess what...it's 100% methanol and it comes in a handy dispenser bottle. 

Rick


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By switchback on 04/02/2008 5:58 AM
A colleague who uses methanol to make biodiesel just handed me a 12 fluid oz plastic bottle of gas line antifreeze that Walmart is selling for $1.00. Guess what...it's 100% methanol and it comes in a handy dispenser bottle. 
Rick




That is $10.66 per gallon.


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Ryan, Charles: snipit < PURE methanol (wood alcohol) will not emit noxious fumes, > 

"Although natural gas is the most economical and widely used feedstock for methanol production, other feedstocks can be used. Where natural gas is unavailable, light petroleum products can be used in its place. 

"Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. Firstly, methanol (whether it enters the body by ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through the skin) can be fatal due to its CNS (Central Nervous System)depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. Secondly, it is toxic by its breakdown (toxication) by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver by forming formic acid and formaldehyde which cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve." 

Be careful out there ! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif 

Found a source of Methanol for you - and with your concern for cost this is free... 

"In 2006 astronomers using the MERLIN array of radio telescopes at Jodrell Bank Observatory discovered a large cloud of methanol in space, 300 billion miles (463 Kilometers) across. The vast bridge-shaped cloud of methanol has been spotted in a region of the Milky Way called W3(OH), where stars form by the gravitational collapse of concentrations of gas and dust. That's 3,095 AU (Astronomical Units), or nearly 3,100 the distance from the Earth to the Sun." 

The costs to get it will surely be outweighted by the amount available. 

Ya'll have fun on the trip and get in touch when you get back.   


Source: Methanol; From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


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## Steve S. (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is a safety fact sheet of information about the product: 
as of 2004 
http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/SLXDENATURED.pdf 
as of1985 
http://www.wku.edu/msds/docs/slx_Shellac_Thinner_Klean_Strip.pdf 

There is a change in the formula... 


So the formulation was changed in 2004?? I have used it exclusively since then and other then some noxious fumes /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif, it has worked great. That's one of the reasons we run'em outside anyway........ya, know.


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## bigsteam (Mar 6, 2008)

Mr. Scott: 

Having been an amateur astronomer for many years I want to point out that first, Wikipedia is anything but accurate. No matter how scholarly the item, they are all open to being edited by any fool that comes along. As much as one would like to trust Wikipedia, it just can not be relied on. 

With this in mind, I think that the cloud in space is not methanol but methane gas instead, which, by the way, is relatively abundant in space. 

John


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By bigsteam on 04/02/2008 10:40 PM 
Mr. Scott: 
Having been an amateur astronomer for many years I want to point out that first, Wikipedia is anything but accurate. No matter how scholarly the item, they are all open to being edited by any fool that comes along. As much as one would like to trust Wikipedia, it just can not be relied on. 
With this in mind, I think that the cloud in space is not methanol but methane gas instead, which, by the way, is relatively abundant in space. 
John



John: 
Trust but verify.... 
I agree Wikipedia info needs checking any time, but Wiki' is usually in the top listings in a simple term (i.e., methanol) Google search given Google's search algorithm/technology. So a followup Google search on the Methanol Cloud discovery lead to 135,000 Google entries return. Methane and methanol are very different molecules and would I believe (maybe Dwight can confirm - also being an astronomer), have very different characteristics/signatures to a Radio Astronomy telescope and the electromagnetic spectrum: 

(RE: NRAO Website: Frequently Asked Questions about Radio Astronomy ( www.nrao.edu/whatisra/FAQ.shtml ) 
"Utilizing radio telescopes equipped with sensitive spectrometers, radio astronomers have discovered more than 100 separate molecules, including familiar chemical compounds like water vapor, formaldehyde, ammonia, methanol, ethanol, and carbon dioxide." 

I did not search on Ethanol Clouds in space, so that area of investigation is open if you want to pursue it? 

Maybe this source is more to your liking... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
RE: News In Science: ( http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1607946.htm ) 

Alchohol Cloud Found in Space 
Agençe France-Presse 
Tuesday, 4 April 2006 

"Astronomers found the methanol cloud in the W3(OH) region of the Milky Way, where stars form (Image: NASA/JPL-Caltech/R Hurt, SSC) Astronomers say they have spotted a cloud of alcohol in space that measures 463 billion kilometres across, a finding that could shed light on how giant stars are formed from primordial gas. 

The vast bridge-shaped cloud of methanol has been spotted in a region of the Milky Way called W3(OH), where stars form by the gravitational collapse of concentrations of gas and dust. 

Researchers led by Dr Lisa Harvey-Smith spotted the cloud from the UK's Jodrell Bank Observatory. 

They present their findings today at a meeting of the UK's Royal Astronomical Society in Leicester. 

The researchers have revealed giant filaments of gas by detecting masers. 

These are like lasers. But rather than emitting beams of light, masers emit beams of microwave radiation, which the molecules in the gas cloud amplify millions of times. 

The largest of the maser filaments, which were detected using the Merlin radio telescope, was 463 billion kilometres long. 

The researchers say the entire gas cloud seems to be rotating as a disc around a central star, just like accretion discs in which planets form around young stars. 

Harvey-Smith says the discovery is surprising as until now researchers had thought of masers as point-like objects or very small bright hotspots surrounded by fainter halos. 

In 2004, astronomers spotted methanol for the first time in one of the disc-like clusters that form around nascent stars. 

That discovery opened up a new area of debate in astrophysics, challenging the conventional view that interstellar chemistry could not provide the conditions for creating complex molecules. 

Until then researchers thought the molecules would be ripped apart by ultraviolet radiation from stars and other tough conditions. 

Around 130 organic molecules have also been identified so far in space, fuelling speculation that these complex molecules may have helped to sow the seeds for life on the fledgling Earth. 
end." 

(fr the same website: 
RELATED STORIES: 
Pig Sperm In Space, News in Science 18 Jul 2005 ( http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1416561.htm ) 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


But Methane is definitely in space too! Question is, can small scale live steamers be powered by methane, if they could I think there is an endless supply available... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sick.gif


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## chooch (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris, 
Do you think that you can find anything of substance? I think you need to do some more research. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif" (I believed you the first time!)


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By chooch on 04/03/2008 12:00 PM 
Chris, 
Do you think that you can find anything of substance? I think you need to do some more research. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/laugh.gif" (I believed you the first time!)



Fred: 
I could post all 135,000 Google references, would that be enough? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif  

Or did you mean research how to distill methanol from space, or is that space from methanol? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/unsure.gif


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

For those with concerns for all the fellow live steamers with alcohol fired engines here is a Xmas stocking stuffer to keep on the list for your best steamin' buddy: 
kinoki footpads- denoted for removing any methanol and/or by products absorbed into the body of an individual: just $19.95!!


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

No need t travel 135,000 light years when a source is available right in our own back yard.  

_"In the moons of Uranus we can see some unusual features. Umbriel and Oberon are both heavily cratered, as would be expected. The 35% of Ariel’s surface that was imaged by Voyager showed the lowest crater density of any of the Uranian satellite, though images by Voyager 2 showed that it contained many more crater than previously thought (still fewer than one might expect). More importantly, it has what appear to be channel-like structures (though this should not be regarded as great evidence since the images are low resolution [remember what happened at Ganymede]). There seem also to be graben structures on the surface, with possible flows emanating along the floors. This may have been the result of crustal extension caused by expansion, a global loss of spin, or a decrease in the tidal bulges. Some craters lie partially buried by these flow structures are around a kilometer thick and show significant topography, indicating that the flow was highly viscous (comparable to rhyolite). The most likely flow composition, if these are flows, would be an icy ammonia mix with *methanol or a methanol-like chemical* to add viscosity."_ 

Source: http://mivo-sys.tripod.com/cryo.html


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