# Building a Battery/Sound car.



## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I waffled back and forth, for years, over what power system to use for my trains. For the past 12 years I have been running my trains with their default track power, at train shows and club events. But my own garden railroad will not be track powered, and I decided years ago I would eventually go with battery power for all my trains.

Then I waffled back and forth for years between Revolution and Airwire for battery power. Many of my fellow club members use Revolution with battery power, and they like it just fine, (and I have nothing against Revolution) but I kept going back to preferring the concept of Airwire. (I know I would prefer real DCC, especially for my diesels, for sound and lighting..but we aren't on the topic of diesels yet.)

So when the news hit that Crest was going out of business, that made the decision easy! Revolution was out of the running, and I made up my mind: Im going to go with Airwire. (this decision was made *after* we heard that "Crest/Revolution is going out of business and going away" but *before* the news hit that Revolution might be coming back under new ownership..even though Revolution might be back, im still happy with my decision.)

So..this battery and sound car will be used to power my steam locomotives only. (for diesels, I will need a different solution, probably with on-board batteries, but I can still use Airwire) (I also have mostly USA Trains diesels, another plus for using Airwire.)..but this car will be steam-only. It will be used to power two Bachmann Spectrum moguls, Two "annies", and a Bachmann "connie"..One car to power five locomotives, and any future steamers.










I debated speaker placement, three options:

1. Speaker in the boiler. best option for "realism", as the sound is coming directly from the locomotive, but I would guess only 5% of Large Scale steam locomotives have a speaker in a boiler. 

2. Speaker in the tender. 2nd best for realism, because the sound is behind the locomotive, but most people dont care that much, its not *that* far back, and its much easier for installation. This is the "standard" configuration, and probably 90% of Large Scale steam locomotives with sound have the speaker in the tender. 

3. Speaker in a trailing car. Speaker will be placed on the end of the car closest to the locomotive. 3rd best option for realism, because the speaker is father back yet, farthest away from the locomotive. but it does have several advantages when using one battery/sound car for multiple locomotives: Only one speaker total for your system, easier to configure and perfect the sound quality. Easier for wiring, only four wires needed from each locomotive, rather than six, with no speaker in each locomotive tender. The only drawback is viewers might notice the sound is coming from the car..but how big of a deal is this really? when the train is coming toward you you cant really tell if the speaker is in the loco, tender or trailing car. And from more than 10-feet away, I doubt you could pinpoint the location of the speaker either..the only time it would be an issue if you are up close to track side, only a few feet away, and as the train passes, you will notice the sound is coming from the car..will I care? I doubt it..the simplicity of building the system to work with multiple locomotives will likely outweigh that disadvantage..we shall see. 

So, that's the history!  Twelve years of pondering simplified. On to the car!










Seven individual components:

1. The car, a USA Trains reefer, will be painted and lettered for my own Stonehedge Railway.

Left to Right:

2. Tenergy Battery charger.
3. Tenergy battery, Li-ion 14.8V 2200mAh
4. Phoenix 3.5" speaker
5. Phonenix P8 sound board
6. Airwire G3 decoder
7. Airwire T5000 throttle

Im mostly gutting the wiring in the locomotives, not keeping a track-power option. (well, I might keep a track-power option in some, when they already have a switch installed) No smoke (I have never liked model locomotive smoke, I dont want it) Only four wires will come out of each locomotive: two motor leads, and two headlight leads.

So now I need to figure out what else I need! so I can start building this thing..I know I will also need:
1. some wire. the Airwire manual talks about the size to use.
2. some misc. switches and plugs..im not sure what I need yet.
3. 4-pin connectors..for loco-tender-car connection. anyone have any suggestions?
4. a *complete* wiring diagram, for the whole car. The Airwire G3 manual has good and clear wiring diagrams and instructions. They have a page for battery to receiver wiring, and a separate diagram for Phonenix P8 to receiver wiring..I will want to combine those into one "master wiring diagram" before I begin..I will work on that and post my diagrams here.

meanwhile, thoughts, ideas and suggestions are welcome! 
thanks,
Scot


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Scottychaos said:


> meanwhile, thoughts, ideas and suggestions are welcome!
> thanks,
> Scot


I think I may have put it in a tender. Then just use that tender with the various engines (all the same scale of course), or in some cases, run double tenders. That was a common practice.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

toddalin said:


> I think I may have put it in a tender. Then just use that tender with the various engines (all the same scale of course), or in some cases, run double tenders. That was a common practice.


Thanks Todd,
that could be a good idea for some, but it definitely wouldn't work for me..because my locomotives have tenders that have to go with that specific locomotive..they have lettering and paint styles that only goes with one locomotive, the tender "matches" one specific locomomotive, and there are different tender styles..it's a good idea! but just not for me..

yes, the drawback of one battery car is that the same car is always hauled around as the first car in the train..but that wont bother me..I have a limited amount of "smaller" rolling stock to go with my steam locos anyway, so they will always be hauling the same cars..(im mostly a 1/29 scale standard gauge modeler) so having the battery car "always first" wont bother me at all..the cost savings of one system *far* outweighs that drawback, for me..

Scot


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,
You might consider building the trail car for you locomotives as a "flat car" with several interchangeable covers, that way the loco's are not hauling the same car around all the time.

I did this for my 3 rail trucks and 2 gas mechanical loco's. I actually built two small trailing cars, one with battery, Air Wire, and Phoenix sound, the other with just a 9.6 volt battery with forward/reverse/off switch for roundy round running.

For the two trail cars I built 5 interchangeable "tops" of different styles and for different purposes.
Just something to consider.
Rick


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## denray (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow Rick That is a great idea, multiple tops. Thanks for that IDEA
Dennis


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

A great advantage of the airwire over the revo is the DCC output can control the Phoenix sound via DCC, plus you can control a smoke unit with out adding a special board.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Scott how are you going to charge the battery in or out of the car allso the connector that is on the ends of Aristo diesels you can get in a four pin, if you do use it clip keepers off so it just slides on and off. If you derail it will just pull apart.
cheers richard


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## VictorSpear (Oct 19, 2011)

Having battery+ wireless controls in the 'battery car' or tender makes a lot of re-use sense as costs are becoming an increasing concern in this scale hobby for new items - if battery power is the choice.

I'd put an additional speaker inside the boiler of some locomotives for those special effects, but nothing else in. A friend of mine sold his entire LGB loco collection for asking price. It was in mint condition only because he refused to gut the innards other than to bypass the pickups.

Vic


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

An interesting thread for someone who principally runes battery power. I do retain a track power facility however.
I like Ricks idea of the interchangeable tops on a flat car.
I still use the old 27 Mhz. TE and have three trailing cars. A coal hopper, obviously for my coal trains. a double door boxcar ( easy access) and finally a gondola. I can therefore ring the changes. 
If necessary, although I have not done so yet, I an easily change the boxcar by swapping bodies and similarly it is easy to switch to another gond.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

R.W. Marty said:


> Scott,
> You might consider building the trail car for you locomotives as a "flat car" with several interchangeable covers, that way the loco's are not hauling the same car around all the time.


Good idea! thanks..I will look into that.



Dick413 said:


> Scott how are you going to charge the battery in or out of the car allso the connector that is on the ends of Aristo diesels you can get in a four pin, if you do use it clip keepers off so it just slides on and off. If you derail it will just pull apart.
> cheers richard


Im going to put a charging jack on the outside of the car. with a switch to toggle between "charge mode" and "run mode".

And I do need some suggestions on connectors! If anyone has a favorite, please let me know what it is...and yes, I would want it to pull apart in the event of a derailment, so I dont want the connectors locked together.

thanks,
Scot


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## Great Western (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot, 
The connectors I use for my batteries are those that match the Aristo loco connectors. As I have four Aristo locos (diesel) with these plugs it made sense. Most Aristo locos produced since 2005 have these plugs excepting Centre Cabs and Eggliners. **
The other four locos (two Aristo and two Bachmann) still require track power. Some day I might convert them to battery, but then I might not. 
I do not use sound, although the Bachmann ones are fitted as default, so the 16.8V NIMH packs are adequate for my needs. I have avoided any type of Lithium ones and NiCads are taboo in the EU.

** from a post made on this place I note that Bachmann are producing Eggliners. I wonder if they will now feature these plug connectors?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I found a diagram!

http://www.rhyman.org/articles/a-simple-airwire-g3phoenix-p8-battery-conversion

Thanks Bob!
That's my exact setup (except I will only be using one speaker and one light)
Im going to print that out then use it to make a list of the rest of the components I need, then make a trip to one of the few remaining Radio Shacks..

Scot


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Scot,

I use a Tony's Battery Installation Kit from RCS in my installations. Comes with on/off toggle switch and charging jack. I picked mine up from a US vendor. 

http://rcs-rc.com/pages/acc-install-kits

Here is also a picture of a 4 wire connector I've used.










This is me figuring out and testing how it all goes together - 14.4 battery, airwire, phoenix, phoenix jack, phoenix sound switch, speaker, on/off switch, motor leads,and charging jack. 










Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

tmejia said:


> Scot,
> 
> I use a Tony's Battery Installation Kit from RCS in my installations. Comes with on/off toggle switch and charging jack. I picked mine up from a US vendor.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tommy! that looks promising, I will look into it.
Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok! I think I have my shopping list put together..
First, for completeness, the items I already have:

1. The car, a USA Trains reefer, will be painted and lettered for my own Stonehedge Railway.
2. Tenergy Battery charger.
3. Tenergy battery, Li-ion 14.8V 2200mAh
4. Phoenix 3.5" speaker
5. Phonenix P8 sound board
6. Airwire G3 decoder
7. Airwire T5000 throttle
8. Programming jack for the Phoenix P8, came with the P8.

Now..items I still need:

9. Battery disconnect plug, 2-wire. 
10. Battery charger jack, 2.5mm, male.
11. Battery charger jack, 2.5mm, female.
12. SPST sound on/off switch
13. DPDT center-off run/off/charge switch.
14. Pack of 620 ohm 1/4 watt resistors, for LED headlights.

15. Pack of fuses: (what size fuse? Bob's diagram (linked 3 posts up) says 3.15 AMP, but the Airwire G3 decoder manual says "10A Fuse holder" (page 11))

16. fuse holder.
17. Two spools wire, red and black, #20 AWG wire. (per airwire manual)
18. 4-pin connectors for loco-tender-car connections.

wow..that's a lot of stuff!  looks fun though. I enjoy these kinds of projects!
if anyone sees anything missing, or has any thoughts or suggestions on the shopping list, im all ears!

thanks,
Scot


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

One thing you may think about in the future...

Use the battery car with the battery and a Tam Valley Depot receiver and booster. The Tam Valley Depot stuff is Airwire compatible, so your T-5000 throttle will work just fine. What this does for you is that your battery car basically becomes a mobile DCC command station. Your output will be just two wires--the DCC signal forward to the locomotive. 

The advantage to this set-up is that you can then install the DCC decoder of your choice in the locomotive itself. If you buy a locomotive that is already DCC-equipped (LGB, Piko, TrainLine, etc.) you need only connect the input of the on-board decoder to the output of the battery car instead of the rails and you're off and running.

You could do the same thing with the Airwire Convertr receiver, except the Airwire receiver has to be programmed to a specific DCC address. That means if the DCC decoder in the locomotive is programmed to DCC address 5, you need to also program the Convertr to DCC address 5 prior to plugging in the locomotive. The Tam Valley Depot receiver has no specific address, so it will work with whatever loco is plugged into it, provided the transmitter is set to that DCC address.

This "generic DCC box car" system gives you the ability to install a dedicated decoder in each locomotive, programming it to take full advantage of the lighting and sound/motor interaction that today's modern decoders give you. It does mean you're buying a decoder for each locomotive, but you're not buying batteries or a receiver for each one. That's a savings of around $150 per loco. 

Later,

K


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Kevin! great suggestion..
im my case, this battery car will be limited to 5 or 6 steam locomotives, and its unlikely any will come DCC equipped, but for people in different situations, your idea could certainty be useful..

Scot


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

*Procrastinating ...*

Scotty,

It is a long time since we interacted. I've been procrastinating on the selection of a R/C battery power system as long as you have. Today I attended Trainfest in Milwaukee and attended a clinic presented by Al Airwire. That's not his last name but is how he refers to himself. He was the idea man behind Airwire. The offshoot is that I went home with exactly the same hardware you chose, right down to the sound board. When I got home, I found your thread. 

A R/C battery system is a big hit to the pocketbook. I currently have at least 8 steam engines in large scale. My garden layout, hiding dormant under mulch is in an area no more than 30' by 50'. There is no way I would be able to run 8 locomotives at the same time. But two is manageable. So the battery car approach makes sense. i'm thinking two battery cars.

Most of my locos are rod engines so a box car or flat car battery car makes sense for those locos. But I also have a couple of geared logging locos. I'm thinking a log load might be used to conceal the electronics. Log load? I've seen photos of North Pacific Coast locomotives carrying a single log cut from a redwood tree. The diameter of the log is much greater than the diameter of the locomotive's boiler. 

So old friend, I'll be following this thread with a lot of interest. 

Tom


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

*Battery Car*

Scot,

This is the kind of consist I mentioned for geared locos in my last post. This consist is made up of sections from a felled redwood tree. With a bit of work with a drill press or router, any of these logging cars could be converted into a battery car.










Thats a 4-4-0 American leading this late 1800's 4th of July parade. Just saying ...

Tom


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Hello Tom,
Been a long time since we have seen a post from you. Glad to see one, hope you intend to stick around, you always had good information and helpful ideas to share.

Nice picture of the #3 (the Onward) by the way. 

Don't know the logging train era that is under consideration but maybe a provisions box car, a fuel oil tanker or fire fighting water tender would be easier to build and fit as a trail car rather than trying to hollow out a log.
Just a thought
Rick


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

Rick,

Thank you for the welcome back. I'll probably stick around as I finally retired.

I agree on the logs. It isn't so much the effort in hollowing them out. With a drill press that's fairly easy. Its the fact that they have to lie flat and be wide enough in the flat portion to admit the battery.

My prototype railroad, the NPC, ran lots of mixed consists. I would think in a logging consist you might find a saw filer's car or a steam donkey on a flat. I'm working on putting together the parts for two flats that will serve as battery cars with switchable loads. Six Bachmann logging flats with loads are on order. Two will become the battery cars. A steam donkey is also on its way.

When Scotty helps us figure out the electronics, I'll work on that part.

Tom


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Tom,
great to hear from you! welcome back! 

yeah, im pretty happy with my selection, I think it will work well..
as I said, im planning to use this one car with at least 5 steam locomotives, and probably more if I get more. It wont work for my diesels, those will require something different, but I think it will work out nicely for the steamers..and when you divide the price by five, its not too bad on a per-locomotive basis! 

I had to order a few more bits: fuse, wire, some switches..but now I have the full collection of parts..I will probably begin putting it together this weekend!  I will post more as things come together..

great to hear from you, keep us posted on your car too! I would like to hear about it..

Scot


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

Scot,

Thank you for the welcome back. I'll be happy to post images of my car(s) as they evolve. One thing I'm going to do differently is I want to be able to hot swap the batteries. That is easy to implement if the loads can be swapped depending on consist. I also want to use loads that cause the users to say, "That can't be a battery car. But it sure sounds like the sound is coming from the car." We'll see how that works out when my cars and first load show up.

Other than the transmitter (throttle), receiver (DCC), battery pack, sound board, and speaker, I haven't ordered any electronics. I'll be following your lead on this one, buddy.

Tom


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## R.W. Marty (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom,
You know, it doesn't cost all that much more to mount the speakers in the locomotive instead of the trail car and just a couple more pins on the connector but makes a heck of a difference in sound believability. 
Rick


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

R.W. Marty said:


> Tom,
> You know, it doesn't cost all that much more to mount the speakers in the locomotive instead of the trail car and just a couple more pins on the connector but makes a heck of a difference in sound believability.
> Rick


I've been considering that..and different people make their speaker placement decisions for personal reasons..but im still going to mount my one speaker in the trailing car!  because for me:

1. one speaker for the whole system, in the car, and no speakers in the 5 locomotives, is better than:

2. the added complexity of a speaker in each locomotive.

And it could possibly be argued that a *bigger* speaker in the tender or trailing car, with room for a good speaker baffle, could equal better sound quality than a smaller speaker fitted into a locomotive boiler, with sub-optimal (or no) baffling..the 3.5" speaker im going to use in the trailing car wont fit in the boiler anywhere..So placing a speaker in the locomotive equals better sound _location_, but arguably worse sound quality..

yes, I admit im biased..because im trying to justify my choice!  giving more weight to potential benefits of that choice, and downplaying the drawbacks..but i still think it will work out fine..and if it turns out having the speaker in the trailing car is unacceptable to me, I could always move the speaker to the tenders..it wouldn't be hard to do that after the fact.










Position one, the smokebox, is ideal for placement..but very few modelers can achieve that, there usually just isn't room. (or if it can be done, it requires a smaller speaker, which could mean lower sound quality)

Position 2, the tender, is the "standard" in our hobby for steam locomotives..most people consider that "normal" and have no issue with it..

Position 3 is what im going for..realistically, I doubt there will be much difference between 2 and 3..yeah, I admit its sub-optimal when it comes to placement, especially when compared to option #1, but hobbys require compromises..Im going to try it out, then see how I like it..if the sound placement really isnt working for me, I will update this thread! 

Scot


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

Scot,

Good discussion of the options. I've also given this a lot of thought. I lied in an earlier post when I claimed to have 8 G-scale engines. Now that I'm counting heads, it is more like 16. This count doesn't include:
- Two live steam engines which will require a different implementation.
- Two Aristo Pacifics - I didn't include them as they just don't fit in with either my layout or my dominate scale. They will probably remain as shelf queens.

In thinking through the battery car decision, I (and you) need to consider the following factors:
1. The configuration of your layout and how you will use it. Mine is fairly compact. it is off my deck. It is freelance. My mode of operation is likely to to be "Let trains run." So the placement of the speaker is likely to be irrelevant as I am unlikely to spend any meaningful time within 10' of sunning trains.
2. The variety of engine types. In my case I have a number of engine/large tender combinations. But I also have a few that are engines with small integral tenders. One of my Bachmann 4-4-0s is stripped down awaiting conversion to NPC No 21, the first cab foreword loco. That tender had two round tanks, one for oil and the other for water. I also have three geared locos, a Shay, a Climax, and a Heiser.
3. The consists you will be running. In my case, most will be freight, some logging, and one passenger set pulled by a Bachmann Annie.
4. Your time available to deal with this. Do custom speaker installs on 16 locomotives? I want to enjoy my retirement years.

When you are talking 16 locomotives, even at $25 per speaker install, the numbers add up. So I'm going with speakers in the battery car. I need at least two battery cars, one for logging and the other for general steam. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the Annie passenger consist.

Any thoughts?

Tom


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

*First Battery Car Load*

This load will serve my three geared logging locomotives,










As you can see this logging skid is long enough and wide enough to cover both my Airwire decoder and the Phoenix sound board. It is not tall enough. You may have seen this skid riding on a Bachman logging flat. There is also a crate on that load. 

The battery placement is approximately where it would ride on the logging flat. The speaker would be mounted vertically behind the battery.

Issues with this load are:
1. Height - not enough clearance for the circuit boards.
2. Open to the weather from above.
3. Crate (not shown) isn't big enough to accommodate the battery.

The steel frame that supports the boiler and winch is held to the wood skid frame by four screws. 

I plan to bash this load in the following ways:
1. Replace the plastic (wood) skid frame with a real wood skid frame that has a fully enclosed weatherproofed deck and provides sufficient clearance for the circuit boards.
2. Replace the crate (not shown) with a wood tool cabinet that covers the battery and the speaker.
3. Modify the length of the wood skid to make it all fit on a 20' flat.

Tom


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I only have one good ear so it doesn't make much difference to me where the sound comes from! I can't tell anyway.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom Farin said:


> S I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the Annie passenger consist.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Tom


Tom, I actually do have thoughts on that!  because I also have a passenger train that needs new power..

My main battery car is going to be a USA trains reefer..because I have been collecting "local" billboard reefers lately:

https://sites.google.com/site/1991gggrs/projects/upstatenyrollingstock

Im not going to get all of those!  but I have found about seven of the USA trains reefers on that list, and they are going to make up most of my "steam train"..so im making the battery car a reefer to match the rest of the train.

But I do also have one "steam" passenger train:



















My Dad's "The Highlander"..it is already battery powered, the baggage car is the battery car. It uses an old Aristo Train Engineer, circa 2003, as the control system. It has never had sound. The train hasn't run in 8 years, and the battery car is now 14 years old..time for an upgrade! Since im already building this new power/sound car anyway, why not also make it work for the passenger train?

The concept, very rough idea so far: In the reefer car, the "main" car, the speaker will be mounted to the floor, with its baffle. The rest of the system could be built on a removable wooden plank, that can be easily lifted out of the car by removing the roof. (the roof could be just a "press on" design, held by friction, no screws necessary) To lift out the whole system, just unplug the speaker, and lift out everything else on its plank..

Transfer the whole thing over to the baggage car, plug in the baggage car speaker..done!  One system, in a freight version and a passenger version..custom "plank holders" would be designed on the floor of the reefer and the baggage car to accept the wooden plank, but that part would be easy..that's my thinking so far..

Scot


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

Scot,

I like the looks of the Highlander .. and the fact it was your dad's makes it a compelling conversion. I'm assuming it is a Bachmann Big Hauler. Mine is a Bachmann Annie (Big Hauler) lettered for the White Pass and Yukon pulling a passenger consist. So other than lettering, the consists are nearly identical. I like your idea of swapping out the passenger battery car circuitry with the box car load. I was struggling with whether to sell the WP&Y train as I thought it would require a dedicated Airwire setup. But you are right about being able to pull a board assembly and move it from one consist to another. 

One of the things that bothers me about the battery car concept is having to pull a whole car and move it from one train to another. But you've shown me a different path. That approach might work with the logging skidder in my previous post.

My layout has a Dwarf Alberta Spruce 'forest'. So a nearby sawmill fits into the layout. In fact the structure parts for a backwoods sawmill are already cut. Sawmills have logs as an input, and cut lumber as an output. While my 'hollow a log' concept doesn't work very well, hollowing a lumber load would be easy-peasy. So the scenario would be -- pull the logging load up to the mill. Lift off the skidder and pull the circuit board assembly out of the battery car. Switch it to an engine pulling the lumber load with load car 1 being the battery car. Pull the lumber load away from the sawmill. A charger at the sawmill could be charging the battery in one consist while the other is in use. Very interesting. 

One other thing fits in with this concept. I'm trying to start a kids RR club in my neighborhood. I don't want kids (4-8) running my highly detailed engines. But a couple of cheap Big Haulers set up to work with the Airwire system would allow kids to run trains without putting expensive engines and rolling stock at risk.

Tom


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Scottychaos said:


> The rest of the system could be built on a removable wooden plank, that can be easily lifted out of the car by removing the roof. (the roof could be just a "press on" design, held by friction, no screws necessary) To lift out the whole system, just unplug the speaker, and lift out everything else on its plank..
> 
> 
> Scot


At some point in time, according to Murphy's Law, someone _*WILL*_ lift/hold that car _*by the roof *_and the rest will fall to the ground.

In lieu of screws, I would use a couple nails (or such) in the end screw holes to keep this from happening.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

toddalin said:


> At some point in time, according to Murphy's Law, someone _*WILL*_ lift/hold that car _*by the roof *_and the rest will fall to the ground.
> 
> In lieu of screws, I would use a couple nails (or such) in the end screw holes to keep this from happening.


hmmm..excellent point! for the amount of times I will need to lift the roof (likely once or twice a year) I should probably just go ahead and use the regular screws to secure the roof..or at least two of the four screws..

great suggestion! thanks..

Scot


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## Tom Farin (Apr 3, 2008)

Scot,

After much agonizing, I have decided not to implement the movable circuit board concept. I just can't see myself crawling around on my hands and needs swapping circuit boards between battery cars. It is an age/agility issue. It would be way too easy to damage $300 worth of electronics not to mention the fragile parts on the logging skidded.

I am going to do two battery car installs. The first is going to be the logging car skidder combination I posted previously. It will serve my two geared locomotives, a Shay and a Climax. I don't envision running both at the same time.

I also have two Spectrum 4-4-0s and two Spectrum 2-6-0s. As near as I can tell, the tenders are identical. So I'll convert a tender into a battery car to serve those locos. I'll deal with the rest of my fleet once I have these two installs out of the way.

If you are still scouting for electronics and connectors, you may want to check out the Cordless Renovations web site. I ordered these harnesses - CR-CN16, CR-CN2, and CON-440. I also reviewed the wiring diagrams for the AirWire decoder and the Phoenix sound board. I think what came with the Phoenix and these three harnesses have me covered.

I ordered the Cordless Rennovations, Airwire, and Phoenix Sound parts from ReindeerPass.com, an Iowa based garden railroad supplier. They were most helpful in making sure I had what i needed and provided the parts at a discount off list.

Tom


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, 
that makes sense! everyone's setup is different..
sounds like two cars work better for you..nothing wrong with that! 
Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

First day of construction!

Holes drilled in the floor of the car for the speaker, (hidden under the speaker in this photo) and holes drilled along the side for air-flow:










I have read that its a good idea to build-in some air flow to help dissapate heat buuildup, especially in the summer months..I will have vent holes on the bottom of the car, and will run the car with the ice hatches open.

Cut a wood plank to begin experimenting with placement:



















Pondering..where to place the switches and battery charging jack? Often they are placed on the bottom of a car..no room for them in this case with the reefer turnbuckles. They could stick out the end of the car..but that would be visually unattractive, and im still considering the idea of making the system transferrable to a Bachmann baggage car for the passenger train.

Wood is out..I need styrene so I can glue things to it..
new styrene plank:










It's a little short, so I had to elongate it.

This is the bottom view..the cross braces fit the width of the car, and they keep a gap on the sides to help with the airflow. (this plank will also have more holes drilled it, to help with heat removal, once the final placement of the components is determined)



















hmmm..it would be cool if the plug and switches could be accessed by opening the door! lets try that:..(yes, im doing this as I go along!  there was no overall plan to start with, other than the wiring diagram)



















Door closed:










Door open! 










And the end of Day #1:










The two circuit boards will have custom styrene supports, to keep them upright sitting on their side..

I didnt bother to make a place for the Phoenix programming jack, because programming will probably be a one-time thing..I will probably find my favorite sound, and just stick with it..If i do want to rarely change the sound, I can just lift off the roof..the programming jack doesn't need its own place in the door. 

thats it for now! now, before I go much further, I need to measure the baggage car! im pretty confidant it will fit, but I havent checked yet..

thanks,
Scot


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

I really like the behind the door, switch location. Will the latches and hinges hold up to the use?

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Tommy..
Oh yeah, the door latch will hold up just fine, it's a very simple mechanism, nothing to it..it won't wear out. I could give it some plastic compatible oil, but I'm not even sure that is necessary.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Another afternoons progress:




























Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

The switch on the left:










Labeled:
ON
CHARGE
OFF

was wrong!  (the labeling was wrong)

Its actually:

ON
OFF
CHARGE

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Woo hoo! it works!  battery, decoder and sound board are successfully wired:



















All the sound works! except no chuff..but I know why..it looks like the "voltage controlled" chuff is not the default state, and I have no trigger installed..

I havent yet looked into hooking the Phoenix P8 board into my PC..I know I need software, and some sort of connector..I will do some reading on that.

Anyone have any thoughts on "voltage controlled chuff" versus installing a sensor for the chuff? I could put something on one of the sound car wheels..

video!






thanks,
Scot


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The voltage chuff is very difficult to get right. It starts too early or continues after stopping. I normally install a reed switch and magnet on the control car like you are building, pretty simple. The Phoenix software is quite easy to use.http://www.reindeerpass.com/p8-complete-kit-1.aspx


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike,
I dont think I need that full kit though..(at least, I hope not! 
I dont care about the full sound library..

It looks like I can download the software from Phoenix:
http://www.phoenixsound.com/support/download.html

And I can order a reed switch and magnets..(is one reed switch and one magnet all I need?)

I think I might want to try the software and hooking up the P8 board to the PC just to change the sound file..I have been listening to some of the different sounds on-line, and I think I will pick one sound file and just stick with it..It seems all I would need then is the cable..what kind of cable do I need? i cant seem to find the info on that..

thanks,
Scot


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

All of the software is free, with the kit you are basically buying the cable. I think Phoenix will supply the information to assemble the cable. I have heard that is not worth the time and expense.

For the chuff one reed switch will do, the number of magnets depends on the number of chuffs wanted. The wheel on the car will probably turn faster than the larger wheel on the loco, I normally use just one.

I will load the file you would like for no charge.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info Mike.
I will definitely email phoenix to see what they say about building my own..



Treeman said:


> I will load the file you would like for no charge.


I wish I had thought of that when I ordered everything from you two months ago!







oh well..live and learn.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

so I emailed Phoenix..and they replied 2 hours later! which is great..
but..
they provided the list of materials needed, and the schematic. (to build the interface between a PC and the sound board..) ouch! 17 individual parts, and a very complicated schematic..

I consider myself moderately electronics literate (I even recently took some college electronics and engineering classes where we built circuits) but in this case, nope!  not going to happen..It would have to be built on a breadboard..im sure it can be done, but I dont even fully understand the schematic..so no..

For those wondering, it turns out you *dont* need the PC interface to change to "autochuff"..Phoenix says:



> Also, if all you need to do is change the system to autochuff, this can be done by changing a CV value with the airwire throttle. Set CV 49 to any value other than 0 and you will determine speed from DCC rather than a trigger input. Page 9 of the P8 handbook has a list of supported CVs and the actions associated with them.


But im not going to try that now..im going to go with an axle trigger.

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Update!
I went and ordered a reed switch and magnets, for the chuff..
Got the whole system up and running today, to test it out..
it works..but it doesn't work well.  I made a video.

Something else that happened after I made the video, that might be a meaningful symptom to someone..I pressed the "5" button on the throttle, which killed all the sound..after that, pressing buttons only brought a "beep" from the speaker, and no other sounds worked. I couldn't get the sound back until I toggled the volume switch, then the sound was working again, but as poorly as before.

video!






any suggestions welcome! I think my wiring is good, but perhaps not..I used this diagram as my wiring guide:

http://www.rhyman.org/articles/a-simple-airwire-g3phoenix-p8-battery-conversion

thanks!
Scot


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Given an unenclosed speaker, that sounds pretty normal to me.
Cup your hands around it and the quality will improve dramatically.
That blue switch is the volume control. The sound will not work without it.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

The volume switch is not needed with Air Wire. You can control the volume with the DCC output. Number 7 turns it up, 8 turns it down. So pushing 8 once it will ramp to zero volume. You must push a second time to stop at that point, same with going up with the volume. You do need to put the speaker in an enclosure.


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting, thanks guys...I'm planning on a speaker enclosure, it's part of my plan. I understand the sound can be _better _ with a speaker enclosure, but I never thought it could be _bad _ without one..which is what I'm experiencing. I do want to change the sound profile too.

I'm very disappointed to discover that I need to pay an additional $80 just to be able to interface with the sound board. If I had fully understood that ahead of time, I might not have gone with Phoenix. I did know about the CD and cable you can buy for $80, but Phoenix seemed to suggest you didn't really need that "kit" and instead you could download the software for free and just "make your own" cable..that's really not true, I doubt anyone has ever actually made their own cable, they should just stop suggesting that as an option. 

Well, I'll try building an enclosure and see how much that improves the sound. I'm not convinced that is all that is wrong though because that heavy hum doesn't seem normal..but I will try it as the next step..thanks!

Scot


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Hello Scot
i don't think you need build a enclose your using the tender shell as a enclose or box car also that hum i get when the sound is turned up all the way. that gray wire is shown to pin 2 on the dcc. i would hook it up must be for something.i have always hooked it up no problem. airwire also says to shut off MTS mode on the sound board

richard


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## tmejia (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott,

A few years ago I called and asked about getting a replacement cable (somehow I lost mine) and was informed that I needed Phoenix's cable. So I bit the bullet. Having multiple Phoenix sound cards, being able to interface and control/change the sounds is great. Although it still bugs me that I had to buy THEIR cable.

Tommy
Rio Gracie


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Their cable has a filter device at one end designed to work with their equipment.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

You will thank yourself for paying the $80 for the interface in very short order. It's virtually imperative to get the most out of the Phoenix boards. You can adjust volumes of the various sounds relative to one another, and also adjust the chuff for sound and also make it so the volume of the chuff increases and decreases as the loco accelerates and decelerates. ("Johnson Bar effect" on the programmer.) That's something that's going to be unique to each locomotive, so it's not something that can be pre-programmed by your dealer. 

I didn't hear anything uncharacteristic of Phoenix in your video, but I couldn't hear the "hum" to which you referred off the top of your video (before you started the loco and the generator spun up). That particular sound file isn't one of my favorites from Phoenix, but that's my subjective opinion. It could very well be that the "hum" you are hearing is something in that specific sound file, and a different file will yield better results. 

BTW, the "beep" you heard when you pressed the "5" key on the Airwire transmitter is the Airwire board telling you you've engaged the "cruise control." It works just like the cruise control on your car. Set the speed and it will maintain it. I've got a G3 board in one of the locos on my dad's railroad. It ran up and down the entire line (grades as steep as 8%) with no noticeable change in speed the entire trip. 

Later,

K


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks everyone! im going to take a closer look at it tonight.

Kevin, perhaps "hum" isnt the best descriptor..maybe "static" is the better term to use.
its very loud! its the sound coming from the speaker right here:

(edit..the links that are set to a specific time in the video don't work when posted..the video starts at the beginning, and i cant post just the link without the video being embedded.
So the two locatiions i wanted to post are at:

2:02

and 

4:05

thanks,
Scot


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Scot, I would suggest that perhaps what you are hearing is normal and you just don't know what you are listening too.

When the video starts, sure it sounds like a chuff, but why would it chuff if you are using the reed switch mode? I suggest that what you are hearing is not a chuff but the the air pump. Also, when you do activate the chuff, it sounds a bit different and deeper.

And, when the air pump stops, I think you are hearing steam blowdown or such. And, I think that the hum/whine is the dynamo.

Also, the distortion is primarily because you need to put the speaker in some sort of enclosure or at least on a baffle board to keep the rear wave from canceling out the front wave. I think that once you have a suitable enclosure, these sounds will be more realistic and identifiable.

Or not...


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

hmmm..thanks everyone! good suggestions.

I tried a "quick and dirty" enclosure, just sticking the end of the speaker in a stryofoam cup! 
it helped..I guess.

I suppose there isnt much sense in further testing with this "incomplete" configuration..
im going to go ahead and finish up the car, make the proper speaker baffle, mount it in the car, change the sound profile, mount the chuff sensor on a wheel..*then* try it out again..

and yeah..I guess I need to go ahead and go "all-in" for the Phoenix PC interface..
The reason I spent the extra on Peoenix in the first place is because im building *one* system to run five locomotives, so there is a pretty big cost savings there..so yeah, gotta buy one more piece!

I'll post again when I have those things all set! probably next month..
thanks for the help everyone!

Scot


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Update!
I did end up buying the Phoenix CD/cable kit. and now im glad I did! because being able to modify the sound files is something you definately want to do with Phoenix..it sucks it costs an additional $80 to get that functionality, but it is what it is..Now that I have been able to change and tweak the sound files, im much happier with the sound quality.

First test-run with the whole system together! 
the speaker baffle is just a paper cup with cotton in it, im still going to rig something more permanant..and obviously the wiring isnt finished yet!  but its coming together..The locomotive kitbash will get its own thread soon..






thanks,
Scot


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