# Aristo-Craft's 40 foot Double Door Box Cars - Another production run



## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Aristo-Craft's 40 foot Double Door Box Cars - Another production run

I recently acquired four new Aristo double door (DD) box cars - two in Southern Pacific, one Milwaukee Road and one Southern RR. As is commonplace for Aristo the cars came with factory installed plastic wheels, so I retrofitted them with metal wheels.

The following pictures show these new cars with retrofitted metal wheels:








Two road numbers are offered so I got two SP cars as this is my core railroad of interest








The Southern RR car is shown below








The Milwaukee Road car is shown below









Most welcomed, Aristo have addressed concerns from earlier production runs of these DD box car products - yet some factory assembly issues remain of interest:

Thankfully, it appears Aristo resumed their past conventional packaging of rolling stock - a good thing since the recent all plastic box was awkward to work with - particularly when trying to put back the goods in it. (I had cut myself a couple of times on the sharp edges of those all plastic boxes.) Shown below is the conventional packaging these cars now come in.









As shown below, and much appreciated, Aristo appears to have re-corrected the floor installation orientation whereby the large air tank is nearest the NON brake wheel end of the car as it should be. (The last production run DD MKT car had reverted to the incorrect installation practice.)









However, the Aristo factory needs some direction for the proper installation of the floor assembly as all four of the cars I received had one or more gaps between the side walls of the car and the surrounding edges of the floor. See below picture.








This was corrected by backing out the long screws near these areas (along with the end bulkhead screw) and holding in the car sides against the floor whilst putting upward force against the floor from within the car until the sides popped into a flush position. Then LIGHTLY tighten the screws for a snug fit. If the screws are too tight, the sides will pop back out - which may be how the factory had assembled these cars.


The floor assembly & Kadee couplers:

A good thing is that Aristo appears to accommodate the 180 degree reinstallation of their trucks (with couplers removed). When the truck is rotated from side to side its coupler tang is now free to move without interfering with the floor structure. This facilitates body mounting couplers as it is no longer required to cut off the tang.









Shown below is the coupler pad area for accommodating a body mount Kadee 830 draft gear box. Also, it is much appreciated that Aristo's factory has apparently fixed the bolster pivot post where the trucks mount. The first production run cars had split pivot posts.








Note the 3 holes that are located outside the periphery of the walled area are intended for mounting the box. The wall height serves as a spacer to approximate the location of the desired coupler to railhead distance once the Kadee 830 assembly is installed. The walls also provide clearance for the end bulkhead screw head. (An apparent alternative mounting method would be to use only the rear hole and center front hole of the Kadee box - if one could locate an extra long bulkhead screw - requiring removing Aristo's present long screw and using the extra long replacement for it to pass through both the Kadee box and floor assembly attaching to the body shell near the roof.)

Shown below is the mounted Kadee 830 coupler box assembly.








I used screws salvaged from an old answering machine having a thread pitch meant for threading into plastic. They appear to be about the size of a #4 screw of approx. 1 inch in length. (The holes in the floor pad area are to be drilled through with a smaller size diameter than the screws so as to accept the screw threads.)

Shown below is how the screws threaded through the floor surface within the car.
(Noticing the warpage at the far end, it appears the factory did not fully seat the upper floor board area to its lower section.) The camera found this issue!








Long #4 machine screws could be used with nuts attached at the floor area, but since the car's end bulkhead long screw is captively located under the Kadee box, placing your hand within the car would be necessitated to fasten the nuts by feel. (The end bulkhead long screw being covered over by the Kadee box precludes removable of the floor.)


Retrofitting metal wheels, lubrication & axle skew:

Since these Aristo cars came with plastic wheels, I retrofitted their Bettendorf trucks with Aristo ART-29111B metal wheels.
In the more recent Aristo factory production runs of the DD cars, I noticed the use of a blue / green grease on the axle tips after removing the plastic wheels. The cars described here did not have evidence of any lubricant, so I used a Teflon powered lube in the bushing areas of the journal boxes. Any excess can be cleaned off with a cloth.








Some time ago Aristo-Craft's principal officer, Lewis Polk, recommended the use of Labelle 134 for this purpose as being safe following the cracked journal box problem brought forth when using Electralube on plastic materials that the truck side frames had been made of.
(Newer production run Aristo freight truck side frames are made of a nylon material that do not appear to be damaged if using Aristo's Electralube. But if one is not sure what the material is, it's best not to use Electralube and risk damage.) 

Before installing the metal wheels, I placed a 0.030 inch thick nylon washer on either end of the axle tip before installation. This is done to minimize axle skew (e.g. angle of attack of wheel flanges against rail head) with resultant wheel drag when rounding curve track. The hole in the washer is about 0.120 inch diameter for it to fit over the axle.









Shown below is a comparison with the truck on the bottom equipped with the 4 washers - 2 on each axle. The comparative difference can be seen between the two with the bottom example having noticeably less skew than the truck shown at the top that only had the metal wheels installed in place of the original plastic ones. 








Lateral axle displacement could still be minimized - perhaps by using up to 0.045 inch thick washers; however, too thick will cause rotational binding as I have found when using 0.060 inch thick washers.


More Kadee coupler info. following truck reinstallation:

Shown below is the Aristo Southern Pacific DD Box car with a Kadee 830 coupler box assembly installed on one end of the car and how it aligns with the Kadee 880 Coupler Height Gauge.








The car coupler aligns reasonably close, but as can be seen it's a bit too low.
Since Aristo supplies a metal washer of about 0.012 inch thick mounted on top of each truck bolster at the pivot post, this could be placed on the underside of the truck (over the pivot post of the floor bolster) thus raising the car up some for better coupler alignment. However, I have found the car to exhibit excessive rocking or wobble when doing so. (Incidentally, this is how Aristo shipped the earlier production run DD cars, and it's appreciated they don't do this now.) 

As to this minimal height mismatch, it should be understood that the car as equipped from the Aristo factory is supplied with plastic wheels and these wheels measured to be about 0.020 inch greater in diameter at their tread when compared to the Aristo ART-29111B metal wheels that have been retrofitted here. Thus, one half of this difference (0.010 inch) is the amount that the car would be lowered with these metal wheels installed. It's possible Aristo may have overlooked this and designed the floor pad coupler wall height, accordingly. If so, consideration could have been afforded to folks that would want to mount Kadee couplers would also likely want metal wheels on their cars, too.

The picture below shows how the coupler alignment appears with 0.012 inch thick spacer washer placed between the car floor bolster and truck - thus raising the car up by that amount.








This looks to be fairly close in alignment to the Kadee 880 coupler gauge with maybe just a tad low.
Since the car exhibits rocking with this spacer washer, my preference is to trim the coupler pad wall height down by about 0.015 inch.

The following picture show what the car looks like with the Kadee 830 coupler assembly installed:








Note how the coupler box seems to project out from the end of the car.










This coupler box projection favors a wider space between coupled cars - of benefit when rounding tight curves.








When comparing the coupler box projection to prototype cars, it would appear that this would best emulate Southern Pacific's "Hydra Cushion" or Santa Fe's "Shock Control". For the more common era cars, it may be of consideration to mount the coupler box assembly more flush with the bulkhead end of the car, but this would require drilling new mounting holes in the car floor and also require trimming some material off the Aristo truck bolster tang. See below picture:








The below picture illustrates how the Kadee box tends to restrict the rotation angle of the truck when compared to the Aristo truck mount coupler. (The wheels' backsides contact the Kadee box.) This may be of concern on tight diameter track curves.









-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Ted for another great write up of the latest version. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ted! 

The coupler "pad" is the same as I found on the new covered hoppers, and is the wrong height, and the screw holes, while are in the correct pattern, are the wrong distance from the end of the car. 

Maybe Aristo will correct this some day. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Nice objective review of the latest run of the Aristo double door boxcars, Ted. I'm sure others are like me and really appreciate the work you go to to present this information. When you finished with your modifications, you have some really nice looking cars there.

Ed


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

Shown below is how the screws threaded through the floor surface within the car.
(Noticing the warpage at the far end, it appears the factory did not fully seat the upper floor board area to its lower section.) The camera found this issue!









QUESTION Ted....

I notice the side doors are open, I think... Do the doors work ok and can them be hooked to stay shut?? I didn't see any thing on that..


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Noel, 

The side doors are open all the way so I could put the camera inside the car and to take the picture you see. 
Yes, the double doors work just fine, and they do latch closed and are not prone to open by themselves. 

-Ted


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## noelw (Jan 2, 2008)

*Tks. Ted for the info.







*


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

A suggestion to Aristo to improve the freight car floor assembly:

Many folks may install Kadee 830 couplers on their freight cars, including the Aristo 40 foot box car products, and if doing so it's reasonable they also would be similarly predisposed to install metal wheels too (likely ART-29111). Then by improving the floor assembly to accept various installation possibilities is behooving to do.
Thus, the Kadee couplers installation may be considered a catalyst of sorts to enhance the sales of both the Aristo cars and metal wheel sets.

Based on what I observed, I suggest the following improvements:

See picture:









1)
Given the premise that it is more difficult for the hobbyist to remove material, it is best to start with an optimal wall (aka ribs) height for cars equipped with metal wheels that sit lower than the ones with standard plastic wheels.
Therefore, reduce the present Kadee pad wall height by 0.015 inch (I measured wall height to be 0.150 inch tall - thus, 0.150 - 0.015 = 0.135 inch tall for the new height) 
Comment: making the wall height slightly lower than 0.135 inch may be considered, too, as Kadee now has a shim product (Kadee 841) to be used with their 830 product.
http://kadee.com/htmbord/page841-941.htm

2)
Keep the present Aristo Kadee pad's wall & hole locations that results in a projected coupler draft gear box to accommodate those cars that would emulate prototype cars having "Hydra Cushion" as in SP use, or "Shock Control" - as in Santa Fe. (other railroads may have different names for the same or similar technology used to prevent freight damage.)

3)
Add a group of new holes (4 holes) that correspond to the Kadee 830 coupler box like that of the present floor holes but all offset 0.400 inch inboard toward the truck bolster of the car. Only have factory holes for the bottom black part of the floor assembly - not the brown floor board area. (Let the user drill out the brown floor board area to accept bolts or self tapping screws based on preference. This will reduce factory costs as only the black - bottom - of the floor assy. need to be changed.)

4)
Extend the Aristo Kadee pad walls an additional 0.400 inch inboard toward the truck bolster of the car.

Items 3 and 4 should allow for a flush mount bulkhead end Kadee 830 box installation that is more prototypical for the era of the 40 foot freight cars. 
If a user so chooses to take advantage of this location it will be understood that the truck bolster tang will require to be cut short so as not to interfere with the back end of the installed Kadee 830 box.

-Ted


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Nice review and excellent suggestions, Ted. Enough to make a guy proud to be a fellow engineer!!!

Ed


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

Excellent review with great pictures. What type of camera did you use to get such nice close ups?


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks Ed & Bill. 

The camera is an Olympus FE340 (digital) - being small enough to fit inside a 1/29 scale box car for an interior picture. 

-Ted


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted 
You are really good with that camera. 
as for the Kadees, I was disapointed and cut off the spacer and removed the screw and mounted a 789 box. then I still needed to shim the body up alittle.


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## Tom Thornton (Nov 18, 2008)

Nice job Ted. The pad on these cars seem to only work for 830's. I use 920's that have a smaller box. The pre drilled holes gave me some trouble and I still needed a shim as the pad would not support the KD draft gear box. I would like to see Aristo let me drill the holes where I want.

Tom Thornton


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Attention: 

I have since discovered that the Aristo floor pad for mounting the Kadee 830 coupler box required its wall ridges to be trimmed 0.040 inch lower to a height of 0.110 inch. 

See an updated and consolidate write up at link Aristo-Craft's 40 foot Double Door Box Car & Kadee Couplers 

-Ted


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## bdp3wsy (Mar 14, 2008)

Ted, thanks for the great write up again. What would the minimum radius be when you move it back .40 on the 40 footers. Thanks Jake


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By Ted Doskaris on 25 Jul 2009 12:11 AM 
Posted By Ted Doskaris on 25 Jul 2009 12:10 AM 
Jake,

If you scroll to the end of the link I cited, you will see pictures of the cars having their Kadee 830 boxes reposition 0.400 inch closer in.

Shown below is one of those pictures of cars so equipped on 8 foot diameter curve track. This is about the limit. 











-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

My My looks like AC lost another fan.







Later RJD


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

RJ, 

As far as Aristo's couplers are concerned - yes. 

What was compelling is Aristo's coupler quality retrograde when I got the 7 GP40s - several of which had coupler pull apart problems right out of the box. 
Up to that point the Aristo Knuckle couplers seem to randomly suffer from pull apart (not to be confused with unlatching) under heavier load conditions. 
As you know, the GP40 couplers would pull apart under moderate loads - and some of the cars, too. 

I use to buy replacement Aristo couplers to keep on hand for the random replacements - but since they have become too problematic, I may as well put the money to better use and get the Kadees. 
-Ted


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Yep I agree with ya Ted but as I still stay with in the 12 to 15 car range an have few problems I''ll stay with AC for now. Later RJD


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## Joe Mascitti (Oct 30, 2008)

Yep the coupler quality has gone down hill..the last batch I ordered all contain pull apart problems...the couplers with the gp-40's have the same problems...even under moderate loads...I have taken a little different approach to fixing the problem. Instead of getting fustrated, I use a small black zip tie to secure them together. It is un-noticeable and keeps cars from becoming runaways...

There is definately a problem with their couplers lately...I don't know if they changed anything, or just a bad mold?


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

The Chinese probably cheapened up the product without telling anyone to squeeze more profit out and sticking it to AC, and well...us.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe it might have been one of the first products in the "new" factory Lewis was talking about. 

It's not likely it was a new mold, my guess is a cheapening of the process, either a change in the plastic, or, more common, changing the time in the process and getting more shrinkage. I believe trying to shorten the injection molding process has a byproduct of greater shrinkage... that would match up with the problems encountered.. 

Just a theory. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Maybe when the fnew Kuppler arrives we will see an improvement. Later RJD


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks for all the info guys, I just received a pair of the DD boxcars (SP and Cotton Belt) and will be going over them for the issues mentioned. I have already seen the effects of the factory over-tightened screws along the edge of the floor. I'll be body mounting 920's...should be fun 

After a quick look it seems that I am only experiencing the gap between body and floor from over-tightened screws. The floor is oriented correctly, I do not see any cracks in the post where the truck attaches and washers are between the screw and the truck not the truck and the bolster. Now maybe I'l see about getting a plug door car or two....


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