# Dirt, Ties and Track



## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

There's a whole lot (100 tons) of dirt, 75 discarded ties, and track to come later. Each bundle contains 25 ties. One tie fell on my big toe. 


Howdy fellow builders. If you have a spouse/kids/friends/relatives who aren't into building railroads, you know how it is. They think your elevator doesn't go to the top. I'm here to tell you that it's all right, you're with friends here, me one them. I'm sure you will understand the dedication.

My layout will be about 25X100 feet with the perimeter made of by stacking old ties. I've been shaping the dirt to get a folded dogbone track length of about 350', with a couple of tunnels and several trestles. I model the SP in the 70' - 80's. 

So far, as of today, the ground has been cleared, most of the ties have been placed and the dirt is getting close to final shape. I will have to do the final shaping by hand shoveling in the morning or late evening. Too hot during the day.


I'm about 2 months into this. Very anxious to see trains running, if only on a short loop.


When not playing model civil engineer, I work on customizing rolling stock. There's an Aristo SD45 picture attached.

I want to help others as much as possible by showing what I'm doing. As I go forward in this project, I'll post my mistakes and successes. It's all for the fun of it, right?

I've posted a greeting in the New Members Forum.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

I hope you are a young man.... 
that's going to be a lot to maintain.


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## jody (Jan 3, 2016)

Looks like you are doing a good job. I’m just starting to rebuild my layout after pulling overgrown bushes and zebra grass. Do your self a favor, don’t plant grasses in your railroad. They are impossible to remove


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

can you try to keep your pictures down to 800x600 or so? Kind of a forum convention, otherwise your text goes off screen and we have to scroll the entire page to see comments.


Greg


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

*Experimental roadbed video*

Layout size has shrunk. Reasoning is there is a lot more dirt to move than I expected, dirt is not cheap, ties are heavy, and the layout design is constantly changing. 



I think the layout is finalized now though. Here is a 3rdPlanit screen shot.


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## fsts2k (Jan 13, 2009)

Looks like a lot of work, well done

Consider focusing on getting a small loop done to at least be able to run trains. It is amazing what you will learn with the first loop that you can apply to the rest of the layout. Have you plumbed for drainage? It looks like you have rocky soil so it should drain but might be worth some drain tile? 

Just a thought. 

The old ties will give it a great look when done


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

what are the sizes of the grid squares?


be sure you put a straight in each of your S curves at least as long as your longest car, hint 80 scale feet.


Greg


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

Howdy! the grids are 4' square. 



And i've already changed it, see attached. I changed the direction of the tunnel loop.


O yeah, I'm SO fired up to get some trains running, that there will be one loop built before the rest!


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

If anyone reading this knows of one of those Plastruct Truss bridges (kit or built) that's available, let me know please? I can't post in the Wanted section cuz I'm too new (sad).


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

Here's how the trains get out of the shop and onto the layout:


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

*Trains run, pre track layout tour*

A sort of guided tour of the layout as it is now. I'm now confident that trains won't spill off the drawbridge and 5 feet to the ground. Grades are steep, but that only makes me have to run more power and maybe helpers. Curves should be made wider too. But all in all, it's going to be a fun layout. Take a look!


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

The dirt on some of the ridges looks pretty loose. Are you doing anything to compact it and stop erosion? I have used several methods which I can show you if interested.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think some cribbing is in order. Those grades are plenty steep!


I know you have built your drawbridge, but by placing the hinge pivot above the rail heads, you would not have to have a separate piece of track.


Greg


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

placitassteam said:


> The dirt on some of the ridges looks pretty loose. Are you doing anything to compact it and stop erosion? I have used several methods which I can show you if interested.



Yes! I would appreciate it




Grades are steep for sure. I don't know if I'll have to make changes yet though. I wanted them because they justify multiple units on short trains. Greg, the cribbing and other earthwork will have to be done like you said. I just don't know where yet, until the summer rains expose the vulnerable locations.


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some photos of slopes and cliffs that I have stabilized in various ways. This one shows a train heading down the High Line from the upper loop to the lower on a 3 1/2% grade.








You can see the rocks in the foreground supporting the rail bed. Above the rail bed are textured cinder blocks simulating the cut stone that created the
rail bed shelf with some more rocks above to hold back the rest of the hill. The rail bed is concrete. Behind the train is a series of rails on end with more rails
attached horizontally and inside of the structure is 1/8 inch mesh hardware cloth which holds back the fill in the arroyo.


This a close up of that structure.








I'm sorry the resolution is not better.


On the other side of the hill are cliffs that look like this.










This is how they were formed. First pieces of vertical re-bar were pounded into the ground. 













1/2 inch hardware cloth was wired to the outside. Tar-paper was put on the inside and the whole thing filled with dirt.









The outside was then stuccoed with various colors and highlighted with concrete stains.


Another view of the cliffs.










Now I'll show some photos of bridges with different types of abutments. This is a lift bridge with concrete footings. That is the High Line in the back ground.











All of the rocks shown were picked up on my property.


A truss bridge with timbered abutments filled with concrete.









A trestle with rock, concrete and timber abutments. The footings for the bents are 2 X 8 X 16 cinder block pavers buried on edge.









I hope these photos give you some ideas. Keep up the good work.


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

Get an "Expert" on "Retaining walls" to give you advice. You may have problems with the way you are building them, in the future. You have to reinforce them properly, and interlock the corners, which you haven't done. Those posts in the ground will be of little help in maintain the stability of the walls, as built.
I do wish you good luck, but I'd hate to see you putting so much work into the project, and having disappointments hit you in the future. I post this, with a bit of experience, working with retaining walls constructed from used railroad ties. You can get away with possibly one or two layers, the way you are building, but anything higher is doomed to problems.
When a railroad replaces ties, they are VERY well used, and not always worth the labour, or cost. Also, they can become hosts to Hornets and wasps in all their cracks and holes...BE AWARE. ALSO; be aware that Creosote is not a recommended stuff to play around, and is banned in some areas of North America. Those ties, even as old as they may be, are loaded with the stuff. 
Fred Mills


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

Thanks Mr. Steadman _"I hope these photos give you some ideas." _They have given me some more ideas. I like the 1/2" hardware wire and stucco the best. I'll bet you got the wire from Davis True Value (I used to have a home in Tijeras). 



I'm working to get at least one loop together so I can run a train continuously, but it's been slow going with these 100 degree days. I have run a couple of test trains and some pics will be coming.


Mr Mills: _"You can get away with possibly one or two layers, the way you are building, but anything higher is doomed to problems."_ What are the problems to which you refer?


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't remember where I got the hardware cloth, probably Home Depot. For the stucco base I used a product called FastWall made by El Rey stucco.
It contains fibers that make it quite strong. I expected some cracking but it is 15 years old and no damage. It is actually standing up better
than the stucco on my house!! I just used rubber gloves to smear it on about 1/2 inch thick with my hands. Same with the color coat that way
I could texture it however I wanted. If you are doing 2 sides of a bank I would recommend tying the sides together every 2 or 3 feet with pieces
of re-bar or heavy galvanized wire. I used wire and it has held up well.

I tend to agree with Fred although a neighbor of mine has a 6 foot retaining wall made of ties that are still sound after at least 35 years that I know of.
I don't know where you live now but if you are still in the desert you shouldn't have problem with much rot. However, I would recommend tying a wire
around each vertical post and back into the hill to a 'Dead Man', inch and a half PVC pipe a foot long should do.

Keep CHUGGING.


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

*Running Trains*

I had to get two bridges built and installed so trains can exit the shop and enter the mainline. The first is a high steel deck girder (see 1st and 2nd attachments).


The second is a deck girder (see 3rd attachment).


Here's the very first train to run across the bridge. The safety platforms that hang out the side of the bridge were too close and got wacked by the snowplow of the engine. The track is curved going over it, and even though the radius of the curve is big, like 18' radius, the overhang of that SD40 is still way bigger than I thought. (see 4th attachment).


I've investigated what kind of power is needed to hoist a train up that hill which is around 4.5%, and it comes out to be a minimum of 4 hp/ton. I know that this measurement is somewhat irrelevant for models, but considering my roster is fixed, I can judge what locos to use for the number of cars in the train using that number. I figure about 90tons per car, so with a train of 15 cars, I'll need at least an SD40 and SD45 (6600 hp). Using this calculation makes it fun to match the roster with the train. So I ran a double header with two SD45s and 15 cars up the grade. And then I tried the same train with a single SD45, and it couldn't make it! (see 5th attachment).


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

….my name is Fred Mills....
The problem is that the walls will collapse...with any moisture build up.....or even without it.. Your engineering knowledge is questionable. The ties themselves can be built into durable, attractive, retaining walls, but your methods are failing....
I'm sorry to be blunt, but I just hate to see such effort wasted when with proper planning, it could have been done so much more attractively, and much more durable, at no extra cost. 
CONSULT an expert, if you don't believe me....PLEASE.


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

Fr.Fred said:


> ….my name is Fred Mills....
> The problem is that the walls will collapse...with any moisture build up.....or even without it.. Your engineering knowledge is questionable. The ties themselves can be built into durable, attractive, retaining walls, but your methods are failing....
> I'm sorry to be blunt, but I just hate to see such effort wasted when with proper planning, it could have been done so much more attractively, and much more durable, at no extra cost.
> CONSULT an expert, if you don't believe me....PLEASE.



Blunt is good, Fred. I asked and got what you gave. Remember, this is Arizona, and it's a rare day or month when there's more than an inch of precipitation, so moisture is not as big a problem as where you are up there in Canada. But if things do break down, I can and will fix them.


This has taken about a month and a half from bare land to what you see. The retaining walls may not be as pretty as they could be, but so far they are doing the job they are meant to do.


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

*Pics of trains on the tracks*

I've posted a couple of videos in the "Finally a Train" thread, but pics give the best resolution, and can sort of give a 'feeling' to a scene. And tho I don't have anything other than the dirt as my landscaping/scenery so far, these pics kind of reflect the feel of what I was aiming for in this layout build. I'm going to post more pics later.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree that you may have to do some support as the dirt settles. I assume you have something like we have here in San Diego, decomposed granite.


Many people do not understand how it works and settles, and drains much differently than "dirt".


I applaud you for getting going and making something happen, and I think a key point that people are missing (and this is my interpretation) is that you are not afraid to change a plan, rebuild parts, upgrade support etc.


Also, who cares if your dirt walls "lean"?


All in all, good for you, and the most fun, getting a train to run and circuit the track is what it is all about. You really did a lot in record time.


Congrats!


Greg


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

Thanks Greg! Really appreciate the compliments from someone who understands my environment!


I've replaced the turnouts with #6s and a wye. All Aristo except one that is USA Trains. The USAT switch is the best of the bunch - it doesnt have anything that needs to be fixed. And it is brass, the others are all NS.


The point rails were tight (gauge was too small) squeezing and derailing cars. So a Dremel with a grinder bit shaved them down to the right size. Also, the tips where they touch the outer rails was stubby, so I ground them down to more of a point.


I read the writeups by Ted D on your site. He makes mention of the guard rails being too far from the outer rails, requiring their removal and replacing them closer. I'm going to make those changes eventually, but not now. It will mean pulling up those Aristo switches. I'm going to leave well enough alone as the trains are doing well (meaning, no derailments!). This winter I'll do some more work. It's been a record summer here. I'm so looking forward to the fall and winter!


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## placitassteam (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know what you are getting there but here north of Albuquerque we are going from record high temp to record low in 2 days. The wind is crazy.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rob, you can use small thin brass stock to shim the guardrails.


Another thing to do is check the back to back gauge on all your cars and locos. This combined with the work you have done on your switches will increase reliability, but you sound off to a good start.


The Aristo and USA Trains locos are almost always undergauge. It's part of the legacy of the sloppy tolerances of toy trains. 



Some day we'll talk on the phone and I'll put the pieces together for you, and then it will be a flash of understanding how we have these sloppy tolerances on our switches.


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## zr1rob (May 27, 2020)

I'd like that. There are some things that I would like to ask. Like, what is 'back to back gauge'?


And here are a couple more pics. This train has an Aristo SD45 with an USAT SD40 trailing, something I couldn't do until widening some curves and lowering some grades.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Rob, all this basic stuff is on my site, I wrote it up as I learned it: (and refine it continuously as things change or more sturr is learned)


https://elmassian.com/index.php/lar...track-aamp-switches/track-and-wheel-standards


Greg


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