# Aristo vs USAT



## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi All,

First, I am not starting this topic to start a argument. However, this is the place to talk about our favorite rolling stock and I think this fits. I am a 1/29er and prefer USAT equipment to Aristo. That said, I think Aristo still has the edge over USAT if plug n play is a must for you. Aristo makes sound, battery, DCC or RC much easierto install than USAT does but I think that Aristo overall quality is lower than USAT. It can be argued that it is more bang for the buck, but I think if SCALE is your thing then USAT is favorable. Aristo raised their own bar when they released the SD45 and again when they released the Dash 9 and that seems to continue today. I still Aristo has a more toy like, plastic, inexpensive overall aura and I think quality control is more an issue with Aristo than with USA. But depending on what serves your needs or wants the best it can be a toss up. 

I think USAT products (especially loco's) have a sturdier look and feel and more detail than Aristo. I wish USAT would introduce plug and play on their stuff it's been a long time coming and a detraction to their stuff. If that ever happens, in my opinion it will be a no brainer for USAT and Aristo will be forced to ratchet up notch or two again. Please don't think I am just bashing Aristo products as I have owned many pieces and occassionally still buy some. Aristo offers several products that USAT does not and that is another big edge for Aristo. But as far as rolling stock and loco's, it's USAT in a not so close tie.

Truthman


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The plug and play QSI for the USAT is coming very soon. I have several pre-production prototypes, it will be great. 

I agree about the detail aspect. 

Regards, Greg


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Greg,

Will the USAT plug and play be backwards compatible? Will it be included standard in future products like Aristo currently has? Or will it be an add on type of kit for all existing and future USAT loco's?

Truthman


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## Ltotis (Jan 3, 2008)

Truthman, 
I find it interesting that your 1st post on MLS is to slam a manufacturer. 
LAO


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2008)

To offer a counterpoint... 

I am done with USAT until they change their motors. The things are current hogs that are rough on motor controllers. If run on track power, they are also rough on their own wheels. I burnt the original set off of a GP9 due to the arcing related to the high current motors. 

Aristo pulls as well or better and runs on half to 1/3 of the current.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, 
Do you know if the QSI PnP socket for the USAT locos will also accept, for example, the AristoCraft PnP controllers without any modifications? 
Or is this going to be QSI specific? 

I too would also like to comment on USAT motors. 
I have been making and selling a 3 amp battery R/C for many years that has been used extensively in USA 4 axle diesels. 
I often get reports that the said 3 amp battery R/C running on 14.4 volts can handle 10 - 20 cars behind a GP-38, Gp-9, GP-30 etc without ever tripping the overload.


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## dawinter (Jan 2, 2008)

For what it's worth.

I'm gradually dropping all my Aristo products. Engines are gone now. Forty foot cars are next. They're all just fine. No complaints at all wrt running properties or reliability. Just not real happy about the products he has chosen to model. Must be the western prairie modeller in me. Anyway, when you have a defined space and a fixed track plan you have to prune your stuff as new items come on line. Aristo's cylindrical hopper would have changed my feelings but he went for something I have no interest in.

USAT items are more finely detailed IMHO but that doesn't make them better - only different. Yes they hog power but I've been running my fleet of GP9's for about 10 years now. No issues that I can see.

In the end, go with what you like.

Dave


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Great point. USAT loco do draw more current than Aristo loco's which is tough for me because I really like the new qsi sound boards. I have one in an Aristo RS3 and it's great! 

As far as slamming a manufacturer in my first post:

I may not have listed all the pro's and cons of either manufacture. I just listed things that mattered to me. This is a forum to talk about our favorite rolling stock and that's what I am doing. Like I said, i don't want to start an argument as I know there two sides to every coin. Just my opinion. And like I said before I own several Aristo products which have served me well and one set is running under my Christmas tree as we speak. 

I just have my reasons to prefer USAT. That's all. And I'm interested in hearing others views.

Truthman


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I would like USA better if they got rid of that stupid floppy truck on their 6 axle locomotives.

I agree that USA has finer detail than some Aristo equipment on the other hand, USA's detail is more like to be broken.

I find the USA chassis design easer to install batteries.


I think the biggest issue with the USA motor draw is just the starting current. My SD-45 draws as much starting current with the wheels up in the air as my GP-9 does when running on the track.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

Bill, 

Sounds like you run battery power. I haven't yet but I eventually want to convert everything to use batteries and r/c. Do you find the USAT loco's have the same duration as the the Aristo loco's on battery power?

Truthman


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## Bret W Tesson (Jan 6, 2008)

I own my share of both but I must say that cars like the USAT streamliners are hard to beat. The USAT all metal tank cars are another really nice piece. I also own both types of engines and I prefer the Aristo's for some of the reasons cited earlier (I particularly like the E-8s and Dash-9). The variety they both bring really keeps this hobby intersting and I will continue to buy both as the need (desire) develops.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with the above, I have owned both the Aristo, and the USA streamliners, and I have to say I believe the USA one's are head's and shoulders above the Aristo as far as quality and realism. It's like comparing a Chevy to a Cadillac in my opinion the detail and figures in the USA cars is amazing if comparing the two side by side. The Regal


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Bill Swindell on 12/13/2008 7:51 PM
Bill, this is not apples for apples. SD45 has 4 motors and gp 9 has 2.
The 45 will out pull 2 gp9s.

My SD-45 draws as much starting current with the wheels up in the air as my GP-9 does when running on the track. 




Place an Aristo engine with USAT pass cars and now you have a very nice train. BUT it takes large curves and many folks don't have it. Thus the AC pass come in.


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## W3NZL (Jan 2, 2008)

Blueregal is at the crux of the matter, its a Caddie-Chevy thing... Generally speaking, all the USA rolling stock
is "nicer" than the Aristo counterparts... Hey, U get what U pay for, an Aristo 40ft boxcar has an MSRP of $75
for example, a USA 40ft boxcar has an MSRP of $120 !!!! Looks to me like it should be a nicer piece, about $45 
worth of nicer!!!
Paul R...


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## Tom Thornton (Nov 18, 2008)

Hey to me it is like a Caddy and a Chevy pickup. Who doesn't like to drive both! Aristo's rolling stock seems more robust and can take a beating. The USA cars are full of fine details and look great but things can break without trying. The new Aristo two bay hopper has some of the fine details but also seems very robust. I like both USA and Aristo about the same. The USA streamliners are tops and so are the Aristo heavy weights.As far as you get what you pay for the Aristo box car plus buying the metal wheels is about the same as buying a USA box car that comes with metal wheels. 
You drive the Caddy because it looks good. You drive the pickup because you need to haul some firewood. They both drive nice and do what they were made to do. 

Tom Thornton


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg, with the Aristo PNP QSI Decoder limited to 3 amps and the USAT engines being power hogs ???, will the new QSI Decoder be rated higher?


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## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not run my SD-45 long enough to find out if it's battery lasts longer than the GP-9.

I understand the simplicity of PNP but the 3 amp limit is a negative for the QSI controller. At 14.4 volts, the AirWire receiver is rated at 7.5 amps. On a USA engine, 14.4 is just fine. It's just OK on the Aristo engines.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a lot of comments here.

1. Larry, first post or 100th, everyone gets an opinion. The thread starter did NOT SLAM Aristo, re-read the post and he makes very balanced statements. I think your use of the word "slam" is over the top. Yes, there has been a lot of Aristo bashing lately, but this is not one of those cases. 


2. There seems to be continuing confusion on the QSI plug and play for USAT. 

There is no change coming to USAT locos
There will be no socket in USAT locos
The QSI plug and play is a REPLACEMENT board for the main board in the USAT locos. This is the one with the switches.
The board has a BUNCH of connectors on it, will will let it "ADAPT" to all the different connectors and lamp voltages used over the years in USAT locos.
The main QSI board has all the connectors and voltage "stuff" for the USAT locos. There is a small daughter card (not the same as the Aristo QSI unit) that has the decoder "brains".
I have had 4 of these units, 3 are owned by Charles Ro. I have 3 units at my house right now.
There is a big software update coming that should finalize the BEMF handling of the USAT motors which have radically different current draw over Aristo.
I will see if I can post a picture of the board, since this seems to continually confuse everyone.
I expect production in 1-2 months, but that is not confirmed yet. The manufacturer is definitely going ahead.
 3. I violently agree with Dave Winter's post... read it again.

4. The floppy truck on USAT locos: yes, goofy looking from underneath, but from above, not a real appearance issue. Mine work fine, but MANY people do not lubricate the plate above it that causes the floppy part to NOT slide side to side easily. I have NO derailing problems and I have tight curves and steep grades. Before I lubricated the plates with grease, the truck was VERY hard to move side to side. I think this is a source of the "problem".

5. One other source of complaints about the 6 axle trucks is probably because people do not know how the "diamond shaped" bearings go back into the motor block housings, and they ARE very difficult to reinstall properly until you figure out the "trick". When improperly reassembled, you destroy the gears, because they are not meshed properly. Again, I think this is another source of problems that could be easily avoided.

6.My USAT streamliners work just fine on 10' diameter curves. I pull them with Aristo E8 AA, USAT PA ABBA, USAT F3 AABBBA. No problems. I love the detail, the Aristo "shorty" streamliners look like toys to me, like my old Lionel. 

7. The QSI output drive for the USAT version seems to be fine. Don't know what the spec is, but I have one in a GP7, which George will tell you, is the all time "superstar current hog". It was George's measurements of stall current that made DCC manufacturers wake up on stall current requirements.


Whew.... that was a lot of typing....


Greg 




Regards, Greg


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I have almost all Aristo. The USA cars are nicer detailed and more expensive. Some Bachmann equipment is less detailed and less expensive. For the money I have available, the Aristo just seems a nice balance of detail and price. 

The Chicago Botanic owns lots of USA diesel locos. They seem to be work horses and just run without complaining.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I do try to watch my comments because some of my closest friends runs and likes those "toy" pass cars. We all buy what we like . 
And if I could and had the space I'd have one of each USAT pass sets.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If your unhappy with the USAT power draw covert the trucks to AC and now you got a fine running loco. Later RJD


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with Paul R's post. You get what you pay for. I would not have gotten into G scale if I only had a choice between LGB and USA. Too pricey for me. Bachmann was to toy like. 

Aristo offers what I believe is good value for the dollar. With my clumsy hands and two large dogs running around the layout, anything with a lot of detail won't last so when I have a choice I will go with Aristo over USA. 

I also just happen to like Aristo offerings in rolling stock more than what USA offers. I can see where others have gotten tired with the Aristo offerings but in the past few years they have seemed to stepped up their new product line offerings and detail, while holding the cost constant. 

As far as engines go, I have a NW2, GP7 from USA and several RS3s and a GP40 from Aristo. The NW2 and GP7 always ran better on dirtier track than the RS3s but then I discovered what a few pounds of additional weight will do to improve the performance of a RS3. The GP40 runs great all the time. 

While some folks are brand loyal to the point they won't have one or the other, I am grateful for the multiple choices Aristo and USA have given me. The more manufacturers, the healthier this hobby will be.


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm not 100 percent loyal to either brand either and have occassionally purchased some LGB (American 1/29?) rolling stock to run. I think what gets everybody so fired up is some of us have lots of money, time and labor tied up into certain products and our layouts so that we ferociously defend our choices and that's just fine too. Not everybody is happy with product reviews by major publications either but that doesn't always stop us from buying what we like. I have purchased a lot from Aristocraft, more than any other mfg iin a dollar sense because I buy their track, TE, power supplies etc. I will buy Aristo's new SW1's when they come out and the new Revolution system looks promising to me. So as far as track, structures, electronics, plug n play, it's Aristo all the way. But I can't wait for the USAT plug n play board, it may be a difficult choice for me then. Still, detail is all USAT.

Speaking of USAT and the amp draw, does anyone have QSI installed in a USAT loco? I heard that the QSI can't be used because of the USAT high current draw?


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Im a huge fan of the detail of USA trains diesels..they always look fabulous!  
My LV Alco PAs are my favorite locos.. 

but.. 

they STILL have a really difficult time getting paint schemes correct..and it still bugs me greatly. 
I have ranted before about the USA LV GP38-2's..the paint scheme is wrong in quite literally EVERY detail.. 

Tonight I was at the Garden Factory holiday train display: 

http://gardenfactoryny.com/events.php 

They had a pair of new USA trains SD70's running, in CSX paint: 

http://www.usatrains.com/r22607.html 

In that photo, the paint scheme looks very good..its blue and grey..as it should be. 

But the "light grey" on the models I saw tonight is a very distinct light BLUE! /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif 
handrails too..a very obvious light blue. 

I mean _come on_ USA trains..its just neutral grey..how hard can it be to get neutral grey right?? 
somehow they messed up neutral grey and made it blue..bizzare.. 

I love the models themselves, they are fabulous..but the paint is always a mess.. 
thats been my biggest complaint about them for over 5 years now..and they still seem to be having huge problems with it.. 
it has prevented me from buying several USA trains locos.. 

Someday I plan to paint up a trio of USA trains GP38-2's in LV paint.. 
but I will have to strip the models and paint them myself..and design my own decals. 

it shouldn't have to be this hard.. 

Scot


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## Engineercub (Oct 18, 2008)

Before I started G-scale in 2000, the only exposure to it I had was LGB, Aristo, and Bachmann. I knew Bachmann for old timey steam locomotives, LGB for European trains, and Aristocraft for their.... is that really a U25B!? yuck!!! Then I stumbled onto the USA Trains site and I knew I was about to start G-scale. I took one look at that Conrail GP-9 and I knew I had to have it. Since then I have only found very few products from USA Trains that I would not want, but it isn't because of lack of quality, it is because it wouldn't fit into what I am going to model. I don't think it is really a secret that LGB and Aristo were in some heated incompatibility and fierce competition and USAT swept the rug out from under their feet. NOW G-SCALE ACTUALLY HAS DIESELS!!!! EMD DIESELS!!!! WOOHOO!!!! Aristo knew they had to take their line of production up more than just a notch or USAT was going to bury them, so now we have GP40, dash-9, SD45 etc. from Aristocraft. It is pretty undeniable, the impact Charles Ro has had on G-scale. However, even though USA Trains was a HUGE wake-up call for Aristocraft, they are really heading in the right direction these days. Steam engines and an awful U25B just isn't enough for the modern modeller.
I never did have much interest in LGB as I'm not so interested in European trains, but I am well aware of how important their role was in G-scale and have respected them. I did like their Amtrak Genesis though. I personally think that G-scale is so much better these days with the USAT and Aristo competition, so much more modern stuff while both companies are still staying loyal to the Steam crowd as well. *God I want my BIG BOY* Now MTH is here as well and they are delivering some great Rail King 1 stuff. More sound systems, more digital control options, just more more more more. I think it feels great to be in G-scale these days because of all the flexibility and options we now have. And god that Aristocraft Stainless Steel track is awesome. It is hard to choose just one manufacturer because they are all going strong and have their edge. I'd personally like them all to succeed. That means more than one approach to G-scale and diversity and options are good things.

While it may be true that I would never have started G-scale if not for USA Trains, and I do have a personal preference toward USA Trains, I think that Aristo, MTH, Bachmann, WADA, etc. are making great contributions to G-scale as well and should not be overlooked. I'd hate to have to be locked into one manufacturer so I say share the love with all of them. The competition only makes the strive for better quality that much more important to each manufacturer, and that is good for the consumer. GO G-SCALE!!!! lol


-Will


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I like both, but I have to say Aristo is hard to beat if you want 20th century steam. I think the USA Trains hudson and big boy are obviously better models than Aristo's except maybe the mallet. But Aristo has four good, inexpensive offerings in 20th century steam, the Mikado and Pacific, the Mallet, and the 0-4-0. Next year the Consolidation, and then they have the Delton 2-8-0. 

Yes, they have some quality control problems. But earlier today I had my Mikado out and it was pulling 15 cars plus caboose up a 5.5% grade, which I never thought it could do. That's really pretty good: I was astonished. And it kept doing it, over and over--a neighbor kid was running the train. Of course the wheels could fall off tomorrow, but then my one USAT loco arrived non-working, with cracked axles. Since I got it fixed it's been flawless


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## Mark Thomas (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm excited to see what QSI has planned for the USA Trains. IMHO....it's a step in the right direction. Can't wait to see what Greg reports/reviews when he's given the "go ahead" by the manufacturer. 

-Mark


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## Truthman (Dec 13, 2008)

C'mon Greg we're waiting!!!!!!! LOL

Nate


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Unless Greg's taken another job it's QSI we're waiting on, I think

I have a USA engine all picked out for when they announce the PnP socket. I can wire it without the PnP but it's so much easier


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, I have to take some responsibility for delaying these. I was given 4 systems to evaluate and test, and I took longer that I should have. But I think we found all the concerns and have addressed them. I'm waiting on a final firmware build, but that will not hold up the hardware. 

But Mark is right, I am not releasing any information until ok'd. What I have revealed has been ok'd by Tony Parisi personally. I will say that no problems with the USAT amp draw, and they are very easy to install, you will take more time removing the shell than installing the board. I think they did a great job of making the system fit virtually all USAT diesels. There are also a number of "smart" things included, like making it easy to get the DC direction to match your existing DC locos, if you run that way. 

I'll try to get the ok to show a picture. 

Regards, Greg


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## fildowns (May 17, 2008)

Posted By Truthman on 12/14/2008 6:16 AM
Bill, 

Sounds like you run battery power. I haven't yet but I eventually want to convert everything to use batteries and r/c. Do you find the USAT loco's have the same duration as the the Aristo loco's on battery power?

Truthman



I found removing rubber tyres from the USAt definitely helped with battery life. Two rubber tyres on the same fixed axle can't be good for current draw on curves!

see http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/35/postid/60876/view/topic/Default.aspx


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