# Accucraft plantation engine out of the blue?



## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=158

Looks promising!

I personally much prefer these surprises than the horrible prolonged pre-order process.
Then again... something like this will well much more easily than an expensive engine.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I personally much prefer these surprises than the horrible prolonged pre-order process. 
I would much prefer them actually _produce_ the engines they've announced and taken pre-orders for than keep throwing these ahead of them in line. Now, if they'd take the money they make from selling this and use it as pad in order to make that happen, perhaps I'd be a bit more foregiving. I've yet to see it. I keep seeing more and more "speculative" engines produced without pre-orders of any kind, all the while being told they don't have enough pre-orders to go forward with "our" locomotive. Ya wanna know _why_ they don't have more pre-orders? Because of stuff like this! It's been three flippin' years with no sign of any movement. Who in their right mind is going to write 'em a check at this point in the game? You're not gonna _get_ any more pre-orders because no one's _stupid_ enough to put a deposit down on something that's been pushed back and pushed back for three years with no sign of when (if) it might actually ever be produced. 

(Sorry, sometimes ya just gotta vent.) 

The plantation loco is a nice looking engine. 

Later, 

K


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## Anthony Duarte (Dec 27, 2007)

I've never considered that smaller projects like this can have an effect on another project's delay...
Seems unlikely to me. It IS frustrating to put money down on an engine that seems like it'll never go into production, but I don't think they can be blamed for being cautious.
Accucraft is after all a business, and they know that smaller engines under 1k will sell easily in this economy (i.e. their forney)... So why wouldn't they keep making engines like this?



P.S. this forum is awfully quiet... it's almost as if everyone is away at a steamup or something...


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

It's a sweet little engine and it's a logical extension of their Ruby design! From a business standpoint it makes sense but I feel kevin's pain! Three years is waaay too long to string somebody along! Either fish or cut bait.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Normally I look at the long lead times as a good thing, more time to save up. Having said that though, an ETA on the EBT (and a pic or two of the prototype model) would be a nice thing to have by now.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

Note to Accucraft: Make the frappin' engine and sell it for crying-out-loud. You and your "promises" are getting as bad as the sparkies.










Deposit money 3 years ago?? You should be curling one in Cliff's inbox.


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## Britstrains (Feb 24, 2008)

I must say it is a nice looking engine but couldn't it have just been put on the list. It appears out of the blue. And some like myself have been waiting over a year for an engine that is still "in development" and was originally due out in may. (AML K4). And thats just a year I feel bad for the EBT 12 guys.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I feel even worse for the EBT 14/15 guys who had to settle for a 12! At least the 12 is "in development"...


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmm, reading this....anyone else remember the Beavis and Butthead episode called "Couch Fishing"? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvSBby38R5o 

The idea is throw anything out there and see who actually bites......


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Lower cost stuff built on spec.. hence it appears " out of the blue" so to speak. Higher dollar stuff like EBT 12 is built to reservation. Not enough sales, no production. Blame the economy for the last few years for change in production policy, or blame the EBT modelers for lack of sales. Remember, smaller production runs means higher prices also. The same is true of the long ago announced Allegheny. Not enough reservation .... 
Why would Accu or any builder INTENTIONALLY DELAY when if the numbers are good, it would mean dollars in pocket. Compare the reservation of SP #8 and #9 compared to EBT 12. Ratio could be as high as 10 to 1 or more. Yoder has issues with his #14 numbers too. just get more EBT guys to step up... 

Jonathan


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

just get more EBT guys to step up... 
That's precisely my point, though. What's their incentive three years in to pony up money for something that's vaporware with no timeline for actual production? I wouldn't at this point. I'd tell Accucraft, "you want my money, you show me progress on developing a prototype and give me a firm delivery date." None of this "due Winter 2008" when it was first announced, then pushed back indefinitely with no word whatsoever as to what (if anything) is being done or when we'll see something. So far as I know, they've gotten only as far as making the line drawing and then stuffed it in a drawer. I have no clue if they've even developed any of the engineering for this loco. At least show us some progress, if only to generate some more excitement and give people at this stage in the game (three years later) some reason to believe their deposit will see a return. Do that, and you generate some excitement, showing people you're making progress and serious about moving forward. Accucraft has the hopper cars coming out in the near future (we've at least seen pre-production prototypes for those  ), which will also generate a bit of a stir. Give us _something_ to show us that there's progress on #12 so that folks coming to this new have something more than a line drawing and a "in development" label to drool over. 

As I said, I have no problem with the quick-and-cheap stuff working its way into the production line. If they can produce that and turn a quick profit, then great. My gripe is when that profit remains separate, and is not at least partially channeled into living up to earlier promises. I work for a CBS owned-and-operated TV station. We turn a decent profit every year. Some of our sister stations aren't so lucky. Yet CBS doesn't just turn them off. They take some of our profit to cover others' losses. It's more than economics. It's also about customer care and keeping them coming back for more. Yes, Accucraft has to make sure they remain economically viable. But they have to balance how they do that with remembering their obligations to their customers who have given them money in good faith that they're going to deliver what's expected of them.

Later, 

K


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Compare the reservation of SP #8 and #9 compared to EBT 12. 
Apples and oranges--there's an actual living, breathing, operating prototype of the model of SP #8 and #9 for people to see, touch, and drool over. I've seen it, touched it, and drooled over it. It's a beautiful model. That pre-production prototype existed before they announced they were doing it. Same with the D&RGW T-12. There's a photo of the pre-production prototype for that as well. Both were announced after the EBT mikados. All we have for #12 is a line drawing. Personally, I think the fact that you've gotten as many people to pony up a deposit with just a picture of the real thing and/or a line drawing ain't too bad. Put a pre-production model of #12 in front of a string of their hoppers, and you've got a fantastic sales photo op for everything. 

Later, 

K


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

I have two things to say about this rather cute-looking addition - 

1. What a coincidence [yeah, right] that is has appeared at around the same time as Aster's re-hash Kiso forestry loco. 

and.... 

2. IMO - the resources used to produce THIS little critter should have been prioritised into producing locomotives for which folks have stumped up money in front, like the EBT. 

Having had my mini-rant/escathement, I'm certain that they'll sell every one they make. It is no doubt very affordable, it looks good - in fact, very little of its 'Ruby' ancestry can be positively identified - it will fit many smaller layouts, like those that most of us have, if we were honest about admitting it, and will prolly fill a gap left by the loss of the Roundhouse Forney a few years ago. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org 
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

incentive three years in to pony up money 

Three years ago NO ONE knew there would be delay. Certainly not the customer, neither did Accucraft. So , why not enough sales then those long three years ago? Nobody stepped up in suitable numbers to make it happen. Accuraft assumed enough sales to announce the product . They were wrong. I do not believe your apples/orange analogy either. Both locos are medium sized steam models. Both will sell for roughly the same price. If anything, the EBT 12 has MORE generic appearance( not a whaleback oil burner) and so should appeal more to modelers looking for a nice steam loco, not necessarily EBT fans. Yet, when the project was announced, there was immediate high volume response for the SP stuff, that simply never happened with EBT 12. Sure it is easy to comment now , but when both were new, they were equal in the eyes of the consumer. The Sp NG protos were shown first time 2008/2009, well after the project was announced. Having a proto has not made any difference for the t-12 either. It was shown first time in Portland Or. at the ng convention. Quite a while ago now, but sales have not justified further progress, and it languishes. 
jonathan


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## hawkeye2 (Jan 6, 2008)

A logical development of an existing line and it realy looks great too. It's very well detailed and incorporates many features I was planning to ad to my Ida. I do wish they would leave the female names off their locos so that we could ad a number and possibly a RR name to the cab sides without having to strip the area and repaint though I do see that have offered an unlettered version this time. I hope the cab roof is hinged, access to the controls on a warm moving loco looks almost impossible otherwise. 

Even with the economy as it is I am sure there is a good market for live steam under $1000 and can understand Accucraft's decision to offer this loco however every hour put into planning and production is an hour taken from the development of projects that people have placed deposits on and I can understand their frustration. Let's hope Accucraft is satisfied with their current line and can move on toward filling their promises.


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## rkapuaala (Jan 3, 2008)

Just FYI,,, there is no Hawaiian translation for most English or western names. Iuki sounds almost like 'you key' when pronounced by a Native Hawaiian and is as close as Hawaiians could get to saying the name Judy. Same as the Hawaiian pronunciation of the word July Iulai or 'You Lie'. Sweet looking engine though I wish they would lower the boiler and make its diameter much smaller


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## Larry Green (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, I don't recall you ever going on such a rant! In fact, you are always one of the more rational of us here! 

That said, I know EXACTLY how you feel, having been in the same position regarding the 4-4-0 project, of which I was a financial supporter. Back then, I ranted and fumed, some of it here on MLS, to not much effect except to feel better. The engine finally arrived, with crosshead wristpin issues that were immediately resolved thanks to Cliff, and is being enjoyed. 

Will Accucraft ever get me to put down a $ deposit again on a proposed engine-- NO!. Will I express an interest in a proposed engine that appeals to me--sure, but no money up front. Once burned, etc. 

Regarding the "surprise" engine: notice the tremendous markup of list price from the recent Forney, for basically the same engine. That's worth considering as a sign of what's to come. If/when the EBT #12 appears, I wonder if the previously quoted price will hold? 

Kevin, it's just "Accucraft Time"! Now, I think I'll go and enjoy one of our locally produced Woodchuck Hard Ciders to mellow out a bit; if you were closer, we could enjoy them together while reflecting on doing business with our hobby suppliers. 

Larry


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 17 Jul 2010 04:51 AM 

1. What a coincidence [yeah, right] that is has appeared at around the same time as Aster's re-hash Kiso forestry loco. 

hadnt heard of the Aster..so I googled it:


http://www.argyleloco.com.au/a_kiso.html 


dont really see any connection between the Aster and the Accucraft at all..

they look very different..the Aster doesnt even have a saddle tank..

and to the majority of live steam hobbiests, Aster might as well not even exist, because they are WAYYY out of our league..
IMO, to say an Accucraft is influenced by an Aster is to say a Ford Focus is influenced by a Ferrari! 
they simply arent in the same class..
thats not good or bad, it just is..

I LOVE the looks of this new Accucraft engine! 
I think its a brilliant re-make of the Ruby..I want one!  


Scot


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Lower cost stuff built on spec.. 

More like 'built on a Forney frame'. When you've got a basic mechanical chassis, adding a new cab, saddle tank and pony truck out of the parts drawer is pretty inexpensive engineering. Especially if you planned the Forney that way. 

Put a pre-production model of #12 in front of a string of their hoppers, 

I know just how Kevin feels - however, I'm also waiting for that 'string of hoppers' . . .


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Both locos are medium sized steam models. Both will sell for roughly the same price. 
There's a significant price difference between the two ($2400 vs $3200). Folks looking for a "generic" medium sized loco will I think naturally gravitate towards the one that's much easier on the wallet, and whose to blame them? They can get the loco and a string of four passenger cars to go behind it for the same price as just the EBT loco. (As for size, the EBT loco is a fair degree larger--on par with the K-27 but inside frame--but we wouldn't be able to visualize that without seeing a prototype.  Overall, #12 is the same size as nos. 14 and 15, but with a slightly narrower boiler and slightly smaller cylinders. 

The difficulty as I see it is Accuraft's ability to get those "last few needed" customers they're apparently waiting for. They're not going to do it without an extra carrot of some kind. As Larry argues, Accucraft's track record with production timelines isn't limited to this one example. It's a pattern that definitely dissuades people from plunking down cash in advance. Those who want an electric version have Rich's to opt for. The people who are going to get in line at this point are those who specifically want a live steam version, or specifically want #12 as opposed to the other EBT mikes. That's a bit of a narrower audience. I think having something in the flesh accomplishes two things. First, it generates new excitement to new customers who can see something tangible. Second, it gives those of us who have already given them money a bit of a nod letting us know that we're not forgotten; that something is actually being done to make use of the money we've sent them. 

The reality is that if Accucraft were to call tomorrow and say the loco was ready to go, I'd be in mad scramble mode trying to come up with the rest of the money. Realistically, another three years wait would be great, as both my kids would be out of Day Care at that point and I'd have some extra cash lying around. (I _would_ like to see it before I have to start paying for their college tuition.  ) But that raises another point--the longer Accucraft waits, the more chance they run that those who have already put money down will back out for whatever reason, so after this long, how realistic is it to count on "reservations" as an accurate reflection on demand? 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

both my kids would be out of Day Care at that point and I'd have some extra cash lying around. 

So which alternate universe do *you *belong to?


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 17 Jul 2010 09:33 AM 
Posted By tacfoley on 17 Jul 2010 04:51 AM 

1. What a coincidence [yeah, right] that is has appeared at around the same time as Aster's re-hash Kiso forestry loco. 

hadnt heard of the Aster..so I googled it:


http://www.argyleloco.com.au/a_kiso.html 


dont really see any connection between the Aster and the Accucraft at all..

they look very different..the Aster doesnt even have a saddle tank..

and to the majority of live steam hobbiests, Aster might as well not even exist, because they are WAYYY out of our league..
IMO, to say an Accucraft is influenced by an Aster is to say a Ford Focus is influenced by a Ferrari! 
they simply arent in the same class..
thats not good or bad, it just is..


Scot 



Both are narrow gauge industrial prototypes and Aster have announced more industrial (read: lower cost) models for the NG market vs their longtime 1:32 interests. And....(see above comments about delayed 1:32 and Fn3 larger stuff from Accucraft).......

Honestly, the same thing popped into my mind TAC.


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## xo18thfa (Jan 2, 2008)

At the risk of starting an international flame war, going to China for something like this is just plain hopeless. They can’t even export food products that don’t kill people and farm animals, let alone meet commitments like this. I hope some energetic, conscientious entrepreneur can find the right mix machinery, tools, jigs, CNC programs, "sweat equity" whatever to produce a quality product at a reasonable price, on time, as promised.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Scottychaos on 17 Jul 2010 09:33 AM 
Posted By tacfoley on 17 Jul 2010 04:51 AM 

1. What a coincidence [yeah, right] that is has appeared at around the same time as Aster's re-hash Kiso forestry loco. 

hadnt heard of the Aster..so I googled it:


http://www.argyleloco.com.au/a_kiso.html 


dont really see any connection between the Aster and the Accucraft at all..

they look very different..the Aster doesnt even have a saddle tank..

and to the majority of live steam hobbiests, Aster might as well not even exist, because they are WAYYY out of our league..
IMO, to say an Accucraft is influenced by an Aster is to say a Ford Focus is influenced by a Ferrari! 
they simply arent in the same class..
thats not good or bad, it just is..

I LOVE the looks of this new Accucraft engine! 
I think its a brilliant re-make of the Ruby..I want one!  


Scot 



Dear Mr Chaos - Please read what I wrote again, without trying to make a connection that I never attempted to make. I never wrote that there was a connection between the AccuCraft and Aster models. I never said that they were identical, althoug they are both indisputably, small industrial locomotives that woud fit on many small layouts, incuding my own. You, sir, are trying to put an interpretation on my comment that was never intended.

What most certainly WAS intended is that those of us - a majority of us, I'd guess from your comment - for whom the Kiso Forest loco is a distant and unatainable dream, will look instead at the probably much more affordable AccuCraft offering and buy that. Especially as we learn that the Kiso model is just about sold out in Japan, and that the rest of us will never get to see one anyhow. 

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

So which alternate universe do you belong to? 
The one that envisions EBT #12 on my rails. Believing my kids are going to get less expensive as they get older merely completes the delusion.  

Later, 

K


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I think part of the problem with the EBT engines was that Accucraft announced both the #12 and 14/15 versions at once, as opposed to the phased approach they've taken with the Rio Grande K series. My guess is the initial response to the #12 was hurt by people holding out for the 14 or 15 (I was one of them), but the 14/15 sales weren't helped by the fact that the Rich Yoder electric versions came along around that same time as well. I did find it a little strange when I visited the EBT last year that although they had some EBT-lettered Bachmann large scale stuff in the gift shop, there were no flyers for the Accucraft live steam models anywhere to be seen. If they're hurting for sales, that seems like an obvious place to try to spread the word.


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## JoelB (Jan 3, 2008)

The plantation engine (where all this started, 'way back when) and its cousins, the Forneys (fraternal twins) are all quick hits based on what's already in Accucraft's parts bin -- Ruby boiler and running gear, plus stacks, domes and the like already used on other models. Even the cab on the plantation engine likely shares parts with Accucraft UK's L&B "Lyn". Put it all together with little or no additional tooling, price it well under a thou and you've got a winner with not much effort. Is it an exact match to a prototype? No, but it's close enough. Best of all for AC, low up-front costs and you can get it to market very quickly. 

By contrast, the EBT engines and similar models can only really be done right as finescale replicas, with obvious compromises for live steam operation. This would be a new design, probably can't use an existing boiler, definitely need new cylinders, drivers, etc., all of which means money up front for a model at a somewhat more rarified price point that the folks in Union City can't be absolutely certain they're going to recoup their costs on in a soft economy. 

None of this is news to anyone, nor is it a defense of Accucraft. Quite the contrary -- IMHO, they've done themselves a disservice by promising too much too soon. Too many diverse models, unrealistic delivery dates, projects started and abandoned, everything that has been already pointed out. Kind of an odd business model, if you ask me, not sustainable if they had real competition. The British and German Accucrafts (who have to keep an eye on Roundhouse, Regner and others) don't adhere to this method, so far as I know. 

My two cents' worth...


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Accucraft had a prototype /pilot model of the EBT 14 once upon a time. They no longer have it. The world of model making /production in Shanghai is very strange indeed. 

Jonathan/EMw


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Accucraft had a prototype /pilot model of the EBT 14 once upon a time. 
I have no reason to doubt you, but that's contrary to what I've been told--that they're waiting for more orders before getting going on any tangible development. Mechanically, #12 would be identical to nos. 14 and 15, in terms of driver diameter, spacing, valve gear, etc. Many of the detail parts (domes, air pumps, generators, lights, trucks, wheels, etc.) would be identical as well. Still, if there was one, you'd think they'd be able to put another one together PDQ to show customers what's going on. Just my opinion... 

Later, 

K


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 17 Jul 2010 01:20 PM 
Posted By Scottychaos on 17 Jul 2010 09:33 AM 
Posted By tacfoley on 17 Jul 2010 04:51 AM 

1. What a coincidence [yeah, right] that is has appeared at around the same time as Aster's re-hash Kiso forestry loco. 

hadnt heard of the Aster..so I googled it:


http://www.argyleloco.com.au/a_kiso.html 


dont really see any connection between the Aster and the Accucraft at all..

they look very different..the Aster doesnt even have a saddle tank..

and to the majority of live steam hobbiests, Aster might as well not even exist, because they are WAYYY out of our league..
IMO, to say an Accucraft is influenced by an Aster is to say a Ford Focus is influenced by a Ferrari! 
they simply arent in the same class..
thats not good or bad, it just is..

I LOVE the looks of this new Accucraft engine! 
I think its a brilliant re-make of the Ruby..I want one!  


Scot 



Dear Mr Chaos - Please read what I wrote again, without trying to make a connection that I never attempted to make. I never wrote that there was a connection between the AccuCraft and Aster models. I never said that they were identical, althoug they are both indisputably, small industrial locomotives that woud fit on many small layouts, incuding my own. You, sir, are trying to put an interpretation on my comment that was never intended.

What most certainly WAS intended is that those of us - a majority of us, I'd guess from your comment - for whom the Kiso Forest loco is a distant and unatainable dream, will look instead at the probably much more affordable AccuCraft offering and buy that. Especially as we learn that the Kiso model is just about sold out in Japan, and that the rest of us will never get to see one anyhow. 

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund




I have NO idea what you are talking about..
seriously..no idea..

Scot


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

After I built my model of "Kahuku" on a Ruby chassis, Cliff asked me for the plans, which had come from the Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette. I did, and now we have a Kahuku production model. 

As noted before, there's a big difference between adding some superstructure parts to an existing running gear (I have done this many times) and developing a new locomotive from scratch (I have tried this and have not managed to finish one yet). The people who do the engineering R&D from scratch are different than the production people who put these things together. The R&D on this was minimal (thus, little or no effect on other locos), and if there are no orders for big made-to-order engines, why not not keep the production people busy with something like this? No EBT Mikes were harmed in the production of this locomotive. 

I like it!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Vance, I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of minimal effort for maximum return on a loco such as this. That's been Roundhouse's business model pretty much from day 1, and it's proven quite successful. I'm not begrudging anyone the ability to keep building on existing work, and if it keeps the company's bottom line out of the red, then keep chrunin' 'em out! My argument is that it _does_ have an impact on other locos that are in the pipeline. Perhaps not directly in terms of resources (though one can assume that workers' time spent assembling locomotive X would otherwise be spent building locomotive Y if it were ready to go), but certainly in terms of customer's perceptions and their buying decisions, which are just as important for long-term business success. I can think of three Accucraft locos I would have likely purchased had they either not announced the EBT loco, or canceled it after not receiving sufficient interest in a certain period of time. Because they're still saying it's "in development," I'm not buying anything else from them simply because I can't afford to spend my limited resources on something that's really nothing more than a consolation prize to what I really want. When Accuraft finally releases #12, I'll readily write the check for the balance owed and be quite happy. The "coulda, shoulda, woulda" relative to these other locos will very likely vanish in the first wisps of steam from the safety valve. But how many others are like me--not buying one loco while waiting for another (costing Accucraft $$ in the here and now), or how many have decided to go ahead and go for the bird in hand? What do they do when they get the letter saying "It's here, pay up?" Are they going to pony up the money, or will they be sufficiently satisfied with their "plan b" loco to where they say no thanks? Accucraft is potentially left with excess inventory at that point, too. Either way, they're losing sales as a result of a protracted (indefinite) development period. 

In many regards, I don't mind waiting. I'm not in a financial position to where I'm going to have multiple 4-figure locomotives on my roster. One will very likely be it for a rather long time, so I want it to be the specific one that I truly want. (And that is pretty much the reason at this point I'm waiting for a live steam loco as opposed to cutting my losses and buying one of Rich's beautiful electric mice--though the thought of converting it to steam has crossed my mind...) From that perspective, I'm probably the least likely person to have a legitimate gripe about waiting, since I'm probably among the most willing to do so. At the same time, though, it's just the indefinite-ness of the whole thing. Will it, won't it, etc? If it's _not_ going to realistically see the light of day, then I am wasting my time sitting on my backside (and wallet) when I could be supporting them through other purchases? 

Overall, I agree--this little loco probably didn't have much of a real impact on the development of the EBT mikado, and could arguably--should proceeds be applied appropriately--be of significant benefit. But that's the rub. If Accucraft is intent on producing the mike, they need to take steps to reach whatever goals they need to reach in order to produce it. The perception is that they are merely standing on the sidelines hoping that their dealers or word of mouth will be sufficient to reach that goal. This late in the process, that's simply foolish, and I fervently hope that perception has no bearing on reality. But we're not seeing it. We're seeing no tangible evidence that the existing customers have done anything more than given Accucraft an interest-free loan with no repayment schedule. They're doing nothing to give the remaining "needed" customers the confidence that they'd be doing anything different. We're seeing locomotive after locomotive come through the production lines that aren't what we put our money towards. Individually, no--they have little impact on other projects. It's the overall trend, though, that needs to be addressed. 

Later, 

K


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

I would of preferred a loco without the saddletank 0-4-2 similar to the ones that Argyle produced. The large boiler though would not look good.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Jason, of course Argyle is on the left while the engine on the right is the (original) Aster B1. The new Aster is even more slender, cute and full of character... Best, Zubi


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