# Who would like to see LGB do another live steamer?



## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

For those that love the little Frank S live steamer, despite a few teething problems(what steamer doesn't seem to have a few minor issues?) With the marriage to Marklin, who has done many gauge 1 live steamers, would another one in the LGB narrow gauge line sell with the bigger presence of live steam in the hobby than in 1989/90 when Frank S came on the market? I would love to see them do the little Austrian 0-6-2 or Spreewald 2-6-0. One of the smaller engines so as to be able to run on any LGB garden railway using down to R1 curves. Many have said that had LGB taken lessons learned(like the gas tank in the tender vs in the cab where boiler heat would have stablized pressure) and rolled that into a second live steamer, it would have been a real winner. After all, Roundhouse keeps plugging along with thier generic UK and slightly contental live steam line up. Of coarse RH could reissue the Beck Helene with updated chassis set up and better detailing to modern standards and we would have a nice Austrian 0-6-2. I am just wondering if in time, and with parent company Marklin's history of gauge 1 live steam, that we might see another live steamer under the LGB banner. I would support such an engine if the price was kept inline with other engines on the market. My guess if it were to happen it would be of Regner construction as they have done most of the recent gauge 1 engines for Marklin. Doubt we will ever see another LGB/Aster creation. Mike


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, LGB live steam is a history. LGB/Aster is also history. Why not buy good live steamers produced by Accucraft or another make rather than wait for something that is not going to happen? Saxonian range of Accucraft is very nice, although I did not have the chance to test the most recent IVK engine. If you are looking for well running European outline, Reppingen produced a few good engines, he also will make a copper boiler for you if you ask. Which is not the case with Regner - stay away, is my advice. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I disagree zubi, if we were talking about the Lehman era of LGB then yes, there would be no more live steam. But under the Marklin flag, who knows? Marklin has been doing a steamer here and there in Gauge 1, built by Regner for the most part. So I would never say never at this point. We used to say we would never see Union Pacific Turbines in plastic in HO scale. That because it was a one railroad engine, only way to have one was in brass. Yet here today we have them in plastic. That being said, the Saxony steamers are not really my flavor. Rather see some Austrian or even the 99-6001 of the HSB in live steam. I think Reppingen did a short run of years ago. But that brand is hard to source in the states. If Accucraft did it, it would be much easier to source stateside.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, of course one should never say never;-)... I have no idea what Maerklin is planning. One thing is certain and that is that they managed to get nearly dead LGB back on course and even slightly growing. 1:22.5 is well established, and the recent offerings by KISS only prove this. Who knows, perhaps Maerklin will decide to roll out a Ballerina in live steam... Indeed, it has already been produced by Reppingen. He is easy to reach by email, BTW. Accucraft and Aster will produce anything if there is a sponsor. But times have changed. In the days Frank S was made, 3000 pieces were 'normal'. These days 30 is a large number... LGB, Aster and Maerklin have the 'collector' appeal. If there is enough collectors, say 300, they will make it. Happy collecting;-), Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree Zubi, Marklin has done well bringing back LGB from the dead. And from the newest catalog, they are starting to push for more presence here in the states with more USA offerings. Even the Frank S was a oddity for Aster with there normal runs at that time were like 300 pieces in a run, the Frank S repeated the production numbers of the Schools engine. Bought the only other Aster on my wish list to own is the BR86 2-8-2t with its pot boiler. Cheers Mike


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## seadawg (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm wonder why in the world would Accucraft build German engines in 1:20.3 scale? All my current German rolling stock is (or at least started out as) LGB, which is closer to Maßstab 1:22.5. (yeah, it's close, but not really.)

But of course you have to deal with 600mm vs 900mm vs meter gauge.

I'm not buying any more (DB, DR, HSB, K.Sachs. St. E. B.) rolling stock.


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## Tomahawk & Western RR (Sep 22, 2015)

an inexpensive LGB steamer would be nice i wonder how much it costs the companys to make the engines.. hmm.. accucraft sells them for a few thousand, but it probably costs them $100 to make


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Unfortunatly, inexpensive and live steam do not belong in the same sentence. I think the Frank S was around 1300-1500 street price when first released in 1989/1990 time frame. I remember them being dumped for $800 at one point. Now they are usually selling between 800-1500 depending on condition with the mint and unrun versions being the most expensive. Still one of the best entry level engines done. IT was my first steamer when I was just a couple years older than you. I think it was more controlable than a Ruby, already designed for RC control, had a nice large sight glass on the boiler and a pressure gauge. If you get the chance to get one, and don't mind the European looks, I highly recommend that engine to anyone. Mike


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

seadawg said:


> I'm wonder why in the world would Accucraft build German engines in 1:20.3 scale? All my current German rolling stock is (or at least started out as) LGB, which is closer to Maßstab 1:22.5. (yeah, it's close, but not really.)
> [...]


Dave, I wonder that too! Actually, Saxony line should have been 1:19 scale (16mm scale). Just like the Australian NA's! The prototype is 750mm so 1:19 is a good compromise. I believe LGB makes their Saxonian locos and rolling stock to 16mm scale more or less. I guess Lorenz chose 15mm scale (1:20.3) because Accucraft was doing a lot in that scale. Fortunately, Lorenz repented now and did the Decauville's in 16mm scale. Austrian prototypes would also face this dilemma, 15mm or 16mm scale (760mm gauge prototype). But frankly speaking, I am not going to hold my breath to see Zillertal U43 in live steam. There are just too many US, UK and German prototypes in the pipelines. We are fortunate that the French Decauvilles got in between. Speaking of the scale, Accuraft and Aster will make anything to any scale you wish (and pay for) if you want 1:22.5 there be it. The most recent anouncement, electric Alishan Shay by Accucraft is to 15mm scale(1:20.3), while I would say it should be 16mm (1:19), being 762mm prototype... But the people who ordered it, wanted it to be 15mm scale. It will be larger than Aster Alishan Shay (1:23 scale) and electric, but if you have money to sponsor a custom run, you are in a position to make your choice (and wait for a good while;-)... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

You want LGB locos in live steam, Buy one from Herrmann. They run like a Swiss watch. The Mallet there was one at NSS this past week and I have an O&K.

http://www.echtdampfwelt.de/echtdampfshop/echtdampflokomotiven.html


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Those are sweet looking engines Jay. I will have to translate the page when I get home from work. Mike


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## Fred Mills (Nov 24, 2008)

The word "Inexpensive" and Live Steam don't usually go together, unless you think of the old Mammod line. Using that same word, in the same sentence as LGB, past or present, is NOT using any realistic thought...so get over it......This is not saying that live steam is over priced, it's just pointing out the cost of the short manufacturing runs, and the actual cost of producing a live steam locomotive, is NEVER "Inexpensive".....and never will be.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Kovacjr said:


> You want LGB locos in live steam, Buy one from Herrmann. They run like a Swiss watch. The Mallet there was one at NSS this past week and I have an O&K.
> 
> http://www.echtdampfwelt.de/echtdampfshop/echtdampflokomotiven.html


Jay, in a good tradition of German live steam, the boilers are brass... For myself definitely a reason to stay (very far) away. But perhaps Mr Herrmann could be persuaded to build boilers from copper, at least on an individual basis, as I arranged with Mr Reppingen for my EKB. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

There's currently Regner's RhB G 2/3 + 2/2, which would go quite nicely with LGB's RhB rolling stock. Though it requires R3.

Keep in mind too, if you're comfortable building a Roundhouse kit (or can pay to have it done), you can start with a Regner chassis and boiler and kitbash it into a model of your choosing just by making your own bodywork.

As an LGB customer and European narrow gauge fan, I'd personally like to see them offering a live steamer on occasion. 

I do see it being a tough business case, though. Between the people who'd favor alcohol (or coal) fuel, and the people willing to trade radius capability for scale accuracy, designing the model is already a challenge. Then there's balancing the feature set and price. And the steamer appears to contradict LGB's move toward digital.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Thats why the Frank S continues to be such a good value for the money. It runs well, can be made to run better, nice tight 0-6-0 wheel base for bashing, aka "Frank the Tank", and is affordable for such a detailed engine. I do wish RH would reissue the William as it would make an excellent running mate to Frank, espicaly in the nearly matching green body with red frames. I would order a William kit if it RH would offer it. And why the adversion to brass boilers zubi? I have seen no issues with the many Regner easy line engines in the country, or the centruy old Bassett Lowke engines still running. With proper care, I see no reason a brass boiler is a huge issue on small steamers. Yes copper is better, but sure dont see many Regners "blowing up" to sound so alarmist. Mike


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, I do not want to change the subject of the topic, but brass should not be used on boilers. Production import and sales of brass boilers should be prohibited. And existing brass boilers (along with copper boilers) should be subject to pressure tests for the sake of operators and spectators. That having said, some professionals will not even test a brass boiler... this is not sounding alarmist, just common sense and elementary knowledge of chemistry and material science. Back to the subject of your thread, Frank S is still the ultimate beginner locomotive, and is a joy to own and operate even for seasoned live steamers. Billy is still available as RTR from roundhouse, and in a kit form, additionally, a 0-6-0 kit George is also available. These are Rounhouses, you cannot ask for more in live steam robustness and performance. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Definatly cannot beat a Roundhouse, kit or factory built!


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is why brass boilers shouldn't be used for higher pressure steam vessels 

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic89766-0-0-asc-.php

This is a Mamod Stationary engine that suffered a boiler failure when under steam . Nobody hurt , but a big caution about what can happen.

Charles M SA#74


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

So, that begs the question, why do the Germans insist on making boilers with brass still? Ease of manufacture, cost savings? That does make one rethink buying a Regner or other brass boilered engine. Of coarse he should have knew better and not steamed it up till the boiler was repaired properly. I do not think our boilers really qualify as high pressure. I have always seem them listed as low pressure steam. What is the break off between low pressure steam boilers and high pressure in steam pressure. Mike


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

I believe the cutoff for steam models is 1 BAR or very close to 14.7 lbs. per 
square inch pressure. Below that pressure models don't have to have a pressure gauge. Above that pressure that need a pressure gauge on the boiler plus a safety valve . I think this is how they separate toy models from more serious live steam. 

Wilesco models show this to good effect. Higher pressure models use a silver soldered boiler and will feature a pressure gauge on them. 

On one of the German forums there was an article about a live steamer having to manufacture a new copper boiler for his Regner locomotive. The boiler as new had been brass and failed on the 5th steaming. Fortunately the boiler leaked enough as the engine was fired up to be visible underneath on the track panel. It had 3 stress fractures running the length of the boiler on the bottom side and let the water pass out as it got hot. 

Charles M SA#74


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Cant be 1 bar, doesn't a Ruby operate at pressures above that? That engine only gets the safety valve, no pressure gauge or site glass. I am supprised a cottage industry of replacement copper boilers for the Regner and other brass boiler engines hasn't happened, or it has in Germany but is mostly unknown outside of the home country. Guess its a good think I decided to trade off my coal burning Ruby for a Frank S with a copper boiler. The coal burner was just to stressfull for me to enjoy running. That being said, I was thinking about getting a Regner Willi for my second engine, starting to think twice now despite how well that little engine runs on my line. Mike


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## Charles M (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike ,

That is true the Ruby operates at a pressure of 40lbs. per square inch , but it has pressure tested boiler made of copper. It also carries a fuel tank that has a certification of pressure test too at least on the newer ones. 

" Toy Steam Engines " are considered under a different set of rules in Great Britain and Europe. I can't quote it exactly but Toy Engines use the upper limit of 1 Bar max pressure and only need a safety valve. Mamod locomotives, and mobiles are considered " Toys " under those rules. 
Serious models work at pressures above 1 Bar. 

I have a Wilesco D20 that has a upper operating pressure of 2.2 Bar . It has a pressure gauge and 2 safety valves on the boiler to be legal under those rules at the time it was made . The newer models do away with the second safety valve. I assume that the boiler has a heavier brass shell to allow them to do this. 

Charles M SA#74


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

That makes sense, just doesn't make sense that certain companies are still making higher pressure boilers if its a safety concern. The price difference between a brass boiler and a copper one cannot be that big when divided into the number of models in a production run. Guess they do not see an issue with it. That being said, I am hunting for the rubber cover for the pressure gauge on my Frank S, since the model is missing that part. Mike


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Mike, you could ask Aster, they may still have some parts for Frank S. Although these rubber covers probably are long gone as they are so prone to loosing them. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

I have an email in to Hans at Aster USA per Jim Pitts. So we will see if Aster has anything left. Might have to try to make my own out of something. Thanks Zubi. Mike


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Of all the Regner boilers sold by me only one had a problem and it was due to water being left in the boiler for 3 years. Corroded away from the inside and created a pinhole in the boiler tube. The brass that Regner uses is a specific grade used to combat the dezincification. They also tell you to put a few drops of tap water in the boiler each run. Also to drain and leave the boiler dry when storing.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Tomahawk & Western RR said:


> .. hmm.. accucraft sells them for a few thousand, but it probably costs them $100 to make


T&W,

Are you serious? 

To build a live steamer (ANY scale) from the ground up, is LABOR intensive. This excludes the toy products.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

There is an awsome behind the scenes video at Wilesco in Germany over on you tube. Shows many of the steps needed to build a simple toy steam engine, let alone a locomotive with complex valve gear like Accucraft, Aster and others build.


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Gary Armitstead said:


> T&W,
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> To build a live steamer (ANY scale) from the ground up, is LABOR intensive. This excludes the toy products.


Gary, he is not serious, and lacks insight. I have no idea wha the actual cost is of producing versus sales price. But if one were to make the same locomotive in the US in Japan or in Europe, it would cost at least three times more. So for me the actual value of Accucraft locomotives is somewhere there, three times the price. We are extremely fortunate that we have these locomotives at the prices they were sold and still are - although the prices did increase in the recent couple of years. And how Roundhouse and Aster manage to keep their products affordable? I really do not know. I remember the story Mr Toyoki Inoue (R.I.P.) told me when they released the 3 cylinder Shay and the separate boiler and engine set. Saito came up and ask them: "how can you make this so cheap???". Everyone who ever looked at these engines will marvel the engineering and the boiler and 3 cylinder engine are classics - they fetch really high prices if one shows up for sale. This thread started with Frank S, and everyone knows that LGB slashed the prices to less than 50% of the original price to dump the stock. They probably made a loss on this project, but they made a history. I once suggested that Mason Bogie by Accucraft was not a different case, suggested in one posting here on MLS this beautiful locomotive had a price tag fixed before it became apparent how complex and expensive this engine is. Once again a history was made, likely at no profit or perhaps even loss for Accucraft. Suggesting that making live steamers costs the manufacturer one order of magnitude less and 90% is their profit, is not only ignorant, it is actually an insult. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Zubi,

I KNEW he wasn't serious, but to actually make that comment seemed to come from someone that does not realize the complexity of building a working live steam locomotive. I have built two in my 72 plus years.......a 1 inch scale Little Engines 0-4-0 saddle tanker and a 1-1/2 inch scale Gene Allen ten-wheeler. I know that T&W is a young man just starting out in live steam and may not be aware of the amount of work it takes to build these. I started my 1 inch 0-4-0 when I was about 13. Finally finished it in my late twenties and gave it to my Dad. This was a kit with un-machined castings and my Dad taught me how to use a lathe and a mill so I could machine these parts. The ten-wheeler was also a kit, also un-machined parts and by this time (1980), I was a journeyman die sinker. I had access to any time of machine I needed and 15+ years machine shop experience to do the work. Tens of thousands of dollars and 35 years later, it still sits in my shop running on air and about another year of work to finish the plumbing and detail work. Maybe I can finally finish this engine before I "run out of time" ! I have to admit that getting married and raising three kids ($ for college!) and buying a home, put a little "damper" in the project along the way .

Hopefully T&W will "rethink" on his comment a little. We ARE very lucky that Accucraft, Roundhouse and Aster (and all the other manufacturers) have kept their prices this low so that these engines are still in reach for some of us.


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## Mike Toney (Feb 25, 2009)

Its just the mind set of his generation Gary, gone are the days when fathers put practical skills into thier sons heads. Even my father was that way. My love of trains and live steam was self fed. I had zero help from my father and my grandfather who did support and teach me skills in his wood shop died when I was just 12. I would have love to learned to machine my own 1" to ride on scale steamer at that age. To have had access to a lathe and mill. But, that wasn't what fate had in store for me, or many of the kids growing up today. Its all technology driven, for better or worse. I love watching the updates from Eric Shade in the Steam in the Garden magzine and online of the stuff he and his son machine up and make. I am thrilled to have a boy his age interested in live steam, so don't let Gary get to you about your comment. I can understand where your coming from. Mike


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