# Hello from a total beginner..



## ed-watkins (Mar 3, 2013)

Hello everyone, 

I am a total beginner, at this time I do not have a large gauge set. my two children aged 3 and 2 love trains and I want to create an outdoor train track for them to enjoy. I have been reading quite a lot the past few days but still have a few questions I would like answered and I am looking for youi help and advice if you have the time to reply to me.

1) Most site I have been reading recoment LGB starter sets for a beginner such as me. would you agree this is the was to go?

2) Are the tracks / rails safe when in use? could the kids get a shock if they was to touch the rails? also would it be safe to run the trains in the rain?

3) For the layout I am looking to set up I would need to have an incline around 30 cm (1 foot). how steep / shallow should I make the track on the approch to this obstical?

4) my layout will be a single run up the side and along the back of our garden, in an L shape with a loop at each end so the train will head out and return on the same track. I am thinking to do this to reduce cost, and as I will be running just the one train., length of this will be around 15 meters (45 foot). would the power supply supplied with the starters kit be OK for this use?

Thank you for your time and I soon hope to have a train running for my girls to enjoy.

Ed


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Welcome aboard Ed.









As a new member, you might want to check out the FAQ[/b][/b] (always available from the *Resources* section of the main blue menu bar at the top of every page). The answers to a number of questions as to how the site works and how to do stuff can be found here.

You may also wish to familiarize yourself with the Forum Rules and Guidelines[/b][/b], also always available as a sticky thread at the top of the *Public Forum*.

It shouldn't be long until you get answers to your questions.

Again, welcome to the forums!!


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## chuckger (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Ed,

Welcome to MLS, good luck with your RR

Chuck


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Hello Ed. Basic answers... 

1/ LGB is robust. 4 wheels and hook n' loop couplers are easier for kids. 
2/ Power may tingle but perfectly safe. Not made for rain but a drizzle won't hurt. 
3/ 3~4% grade. Less is better. 
4/ A dog bone layout will need Double Reverse Loop automation for returning back through the switches. More amps would be better than basic power pack. 

Andrew


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## Michael W (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi and welcome to the Forum,

As a starter set LGB is a solid choice, if you want to safe a few dollars Piko is the alternative ( Sorry I have no expirience with Aristocraft USA Trains etc. Maybe someone else can omment on it) $300 for a piko starter set of good qulity not quite on the level with the top LGB stuff but value for money.

I am not sure about the power, certainly keep in mind that everything electrical carries some risk when used the ttracks by themselfs should be ine tho when running the small starter train.

using the train in the tain is not advisable the throttle and transformer do not like water ( you have mains power to the transformer hence my warning) otherwise the track is fine and the locos can handle a few drops of water. I would avoid letting them outside in full rain or thunderstorms. 

For the dogbone as mentioned before you need the extra loop " controllers". Depemding on the lengh of your layout the starter set thottle and transformer might be a bit week. But there is several reasonble priced alternatives out. If you read through the dc forum there are several threads about it.

For climbing grades mst people recomment not to go over 2% if you search in the track section there are several threads regarding this, it might be of intrest to look into several track option with all advantages and disadvantages. A lot depends simply on what you want your railroad to do. 

If you stay with starter set locos you can get 2 loop kits and some 4 foot sections and r1 sections of curve and 2 switches cheaply.
But they dont work well with bigger locos should you like to run them as the r1 radius is too tight or most locos.

I hope that answers some of your questions...
Kind regards
Michael


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

If you're starting out as a railroad the kids can enjoyI'd suggest a Thomas the Tank Engine set. Since they're still pretty young you might want to get a control system with a main controller for you and a secondary controller for a child.

My granddaughter took to trains of any kind pretty quick, so I got a Thomas set last year and fitted it with a deconder for my NCE DCC system and a rudimentary sound card. She couldn't visit often enough and everytime she's visited this winter, she looks out the kitchen window to see if the trains are out there yet. She was about 28 months when I took this picture.











At that tender age, she was thrilled that "I did it". But I or her Dad are discreetly nearby with the main controller in case things get out of hand.

One caveat - it's nice to be able to keep your "better" trains out of danger of small hands, but the Thomas needs reasonably clean track. Those six driver wheels are the only electrical pick ups Thomas has and performance can be a bit skittish at times. I always run a Swiffer once over the layout before she arrives (Sunset Valley stainless steel code 250) and Tom usually has no problems at all.

JackM

Anyone care to help with the weeding?


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## mickey (Jan 28, 2009)

Personally I would avoid the issues of "the dog bone" and just do a parallel return track. Since the outside rail becomes the inside rail on return, you have to do extra electrical (double reverse loop stuff mentioned above) plus the 2 switches. Also for enjoyment, you may want to put a little wiggle (commonly called an S) in it as the trains look "neater" than just a straight shot' at least for me and my sense for kids.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

The switches may be better used for a passing loop so you can have a second train waiting. 

Andrew


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Welcome aboard Ed, 

Here is my tuppence worth about your questions. 

1. An LGB starter set is a good choice. USA Trains and Aristo Craft starter sets are also good choices, both make quite robust trains. Jack suggested a Bachmann Thomas the Tank Engine set as a starter for the kids. Great choice for the loco and rolling stock, bad choice for track. Bachman track in their sets is a stamped steel affair which will not last outdoors. 

2. Safety is always a relative issue. Generally speaking, 24VDC (what most large scale trains run on) is not going to hurt someone. If you lean across a 'hot' track when you are soaked is sweat, it will give you a tingle (ask me how I know). Otherwise I have no concerns about allowing my grandchildren to play with the trains. 

3. You state you will have a nominal 1 foot rise. Others above have mentioned grades in terms of percentage. Not knowing your level of knowledge, percentage is expressed in terms of units of rise divided by units of run. Example: for your 12 inches of rise to have a 1% grade you would need 1200 inches of run. At 2% 12 inches of rise would need 600 inches of run, etc. Steeper grades are doable at the expense of length of train. Steeper grades equals shorter trains or double heading engines. Double heading engines relates to your last question. 

4. Your question here is two part. Your power question I will answer by stating that the power pack that comes with any starter set is generally only sized to accommodate the starter set plus a bit more. What a bit more is depends on the manufacturer. Bachmann does not give you much to go with. The starter pack that comes with an Aristo Craft set on the other hand will handle considerably more. I have run my ten wheeler abound a loop of probably 50 feet length with no noticeable loss of power. As to doing reversing loops, I would recommend spending the additional monies you will spend on switches and electronics to automate the reversing loops and invest it in track. For simplicity of operations, especially around children, the simple loop will be much more reliable. The only way I would recommend using reversing loops for a beginner would be if you were going to go R/C Battery with your locomotives where there is not power on the tracks, therefore no short circuits are possible. An aside comment about track. I know that Aristo Craft and USA Trains brands of track are totally compatible. LGB track will work with the afore mentioned with slightly different joiners. Bachmann has recently introduced a line of brass track, but I have no knowledge of the compatibility with Aristo Craft, USA Trains or LGB. 

I hope I have not added to the confusion of getting started, but you asked and these are my opinions. 

Happy Rails! 

Bob C.


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

1) Most site I have been reading recoment LGB starter sets for a beginner such as me. would you agree this is the was to go? 

I also bought LGB, largely based on long-established reputation but also because I favored the European narrow gauge prototypes. I have no experience with children, though I imagine that representations of specific prototype are less important. 



2) Are the tracks / rails safe when in use? could the kids get a shock if they was to touch the rails? also would it be safe to run the trains in the rain? 

I don't even feel a tingle of electricity if I directly touch the transformer output. Modern stuff is subject to pretty tight safety / regulatory standards. LGB specifically markets its outdoors, all weather capability. I'm indoors at the moment, though I expect to have some outdoor this spring - I want to get a live steam model, and possibly host others if I find people in my area. Plenty of people have YouTube's of running in snow. 


3) For the layout I am looking to set up I would need to have an incline around 30 cm (1 foot). how steep / shallow should I make the track on the approch to this obstical? 

This is direct proportune to the length / weight of train and adhesion / tractive effort of your locomotive(s). Sharpness of curves and type of rolling stock / wheels also influence how much train you can move. I find the four-axle rolling stock creates a lot less resistance than the two-axle cars common to LGB starter sets. If you want to get something running quickly, I would just put the track on the ground using the shallowest incline that fits the lay of the land, and decide if that works before going to the large work of moving earth. I'm leaning toward landscape blocks to keep the running surface flat, for the sake of steam. I think a ground level railway makes more sense for small children. 

LGB's factory bridge piers look to be a 5% grade, which I have doubts a starter set locomotive could manage with more than two cars, once the rails start to get "greasy." Just like a prototype railway, the easier the grade and wider the turn, the better. 



4) my layout will be a single run up the side and along the back of our garden, in an L shape with a loop at each end so the train will head out and return on the same track. I am thinking to do this to reduce cost, and as I will be running just the one train., length of this will be around 15 meters (45 foot). would the power supply supplied with the starters kit be OK for this use? 

I ran almost 75 meters on the starter set supply (indoors) with no discernable ill effects. As long as the electrical connections stay good, I think you'll be fine. I would avoid the reversing loops, personally - you'll either need to automate the switching of these, or switch them manually. Automated is costly circuits and probably weather protection, and manually means running wires from the switching (and having to teach the proper operation to children.) By the time it's all said and done, I think keeping to a loop of track is better.


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## ed-watkins (Mar 3, 2013)

thank you all for your advice, I thiink the top top so far for me is to avoide the reverse loop and go for a full curcit track layout. yes I know this will almost double the track length but I can see the logic in this design. 

I am loving the Thomas & friends train, I could see this being a winner with my girls. wow, I just dipped my toe in the water with this and can see this growing and growing to take over the garden. I am not sure if I am doing this for them or for me. HAHAHA. 

Back yo anyrails for me for a re-design. 

One last question, In a limited space is there a quick / sharper turn I can do with LGB track or can anyone recommend something else. 

Once again thank you all so very much with your advice. I will do my very best to post pics once I have a running track, in might not be anything amazing, but if my girls love it then I will be happy to share with you all. 

Ed.


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

While I wouldn't recommend using the track Bachman inclues with their Thomas set for outdoor use, having that track and a basic transformer means the kids could set up Thomas under the Xmas tree. Might help them get thru a long winter.

JackM


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## armorsmith (Jun 1, 2008)

Ed, 

The sharpest curve you can get in large scale is a nominal 4' diameter (2' radius) and all of the major track manufacturers have them. Keep in mind that the smaller the curve, the shorter the locomotives and cars you will be able to run. I have the Bachmann Thomas and find that although it will run about on a 4' diameter circle, it much prefers larger where ever possible. The general adage is 'bigger is better' in the curve department. As an aside, if you want to allow the children to run and don't want to have to worry about trains rocketing off the track, find a 12 volt power supply in lieu of the full 24 volt one. Half voltage means half speed.  

Bob C.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed: Good choice on the reversing loop. They are not recommended for some one just starting out, in fact I really do not recommend them at all, unless you are doing battery or live steam. What is the width of the space for your curves at each end? We all recommend using the largest curve that will fit in the allotted space. Short radius curves, like LGB R1 (2' radius) and LGB R2 (2.5' radius) pretty much limit you to short wheel base cars and engines, two axles. Short radius curves along with grades puts a lot more rear and tare on the motors and gears. Chuck


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

"One last question, In a limited space is there a quick / sharper turn I can do with LGB track or can anyone recommend something else." 

Ed,

You have some great advice so far. Regarding your comment above: You can buy a rail bender and you can form ANY curve you want, using flex track.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Ed, 

Try and use the widest radius curve track you possibly can. It will be considerably easier on the engine and cars regarding friction and wear, looks better too. 
Important to keep your grades very gradual, to a minimum so they don't tax and wear the engine too much. 
A simple loop would be far simpler than a dog bone. You say you need to have a grade. Is it possible to have a figure 8 with a bridge cross over for interest? 
Plan your power supply wiring well with several feeds around the layout to minimize problems with dead spots. Solid core wire will give less problems with corrosion. Use conductive grease on your rail joins or even better 'rail clamps'. 
Track comes in narrow gauge style (ties more spaced) and standard gauge style. Thomas is a standard gauge engine but consider what gauge prototype suits your interest now. Both will work the same, kids won't be fussed what style the track is. 
Research different track laying techniques. it is best to have track on a solid foundation so it won't be effected by subsidence and erosion etc. I've been using treated pine pegs and flexible plastic garden edging screwed either side for track though gardens. I then use silastic blobs to attach the track every few feet. Track needs to expand a little in different temperatures. Bricks laid in a trench with some tamped crushed rock in the bottom is better than straight on the ground. If you set things a little higher than surrounds you can then ballast over and keep some of the garden debris off the tracks and in the ditch instead. 

Good luck with your project. 

Andrew


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One more thing to consider with small children is the fact that the engines are powerful and the side rods on engines create a pinch point. Children can not pick up a running engine as they can be hurt by these side rods. 

Fix is to run engines without side rods, or to remove them. 

LGB states the trains are not for children under 8 years old for this reason.


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## ed-watkins (Mar 3, 2013)

Hello agin, One again thank you all for your words of advice.

I might have hit the jackpot with regards to all my needs. I found out today at work there is someone who has just removed there railway froim there garden, he had built it for his grandchindren but they seem to have lost there intrest. He tells me he has around 70 feet of track, a loco, 3 trucks and all the power supplies. He was running a "bone" design himself and has all hardware to switch the power as others discribed before. I was ready to pay him on te spot for it all. I would really like to know what the second hand value of this set is. He said he would make a list of everything he has for me in the next few days, If I post the list once I have it I would be very greatful for a ball park value of it as I do not want to be ripped off. It's almost like chrismas has come early for me, I can not believe my luck, this is one advantage of working for a large firm. I cant start to discribe how great you guys have been to a beginner such as my self. I just want to start building now. I did a bit of research into how to lay my track and think I have a plan, there is a garden supply store not far from me who sell full sized sleepers, I want to use these for the long runs of stright track, this hight of these will also remove the need to run uphill as they are a thick as the rise I have. I just need some ideas for the turns. I have an area around 6 foot by 6 foot at one end but only around half that the other. form what you have been telling me I see this being a problem. I might have to do some thinking on how to resolve this...

Thanks again.

Ed


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## BigRedOne (Dec 13, 2012)

Are you saying your space is long and thin, with one end widening to a 6' by 6' square, but the other end limited to 3'? 

A member here - VSmith I think - has shown pictures of his railway with curves as small as 21 inches, though it limits the range of equipment which can be run.


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## Garratt (Sep 15, 2012)

Posted By BigRedOne on 04 Mar 2013 06:33 PM 
Are you saying your space is long and thin, with one end widening to a 6' by 6' square, but the other end limited to 3'? 

A member here - VSmith I think - has shown pictures of his railway with curves as small as 21 inches, though it limits the range of equipment which can be run. Ed, Here is the link: http://www.mylargescale.com/Communi...fault.aspx
Yep, 21 inch and 36 inch diameter track with Hartland Mack engines. So it is all very possible but you will need to stick with engines and cars that are short.
It will be interesting to see what your friend at work has on offer, sounds as if it may suit you.

Hartland Mack and LGB Stainz are 3 inch wheelbase. Both very dependable engines.
LGB Porter and LGB toy train are 3 inch wheel base also but are a bit runty and not long lasting as the Stainz or Hartland.
Some of the new Bachmann Lil Big Hauler starter sets would probably suit well too but perhaps a bit runty also.
The LGB 4 wheeled cars have pivoting axles so they will suit small radius well. 
Make sure the track you buy is not the hollow Bachmann fabricated track as it will rust outside. 

Andrew


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## FlagstaffLGB (Jul 15, 2012)

Good morning Ed, 

You have received lots of good advice on moving into G-scale and children are always a good excuse for the hobby. I have three sons and I started them out when the oldest boy was around six. He is 38 now, but still enjoys the fact that his Dad tinkers with them. The hobby has a lots of interested folks so prices for used equipment always depends upon "demand" and condition. New track (for example) will often range from $5.50 - $7.00 per foot (depending upon manufacturer)....you can check out LGB web sites (now owned by Marklin), or Black Forest for PIKO track, Reindeer Pass (carry several brands), etc. Depending upon condition and materials (stainless steel or brass or nickle plated or aluminium), used track can go from $1.00-5.00 per foot. Curved track is more expensive...add at least a couple of dollars. Switches. New these puppies (again they very by manufacturer) are running $45-120 each), smaller switches are cheaper than those for larger diameter circlues....if they are in good condition, then buying used ones for $20-60 each is often reasonable. So, the cost of your friends existing layout may come down to original manufacturer (is it LGB, Bachmann, USA trains, etc.), how old is it?, does it all still work?, and what does he think it is worth? 

As far as minimum diameter of curves goes, if you feel you may want to enjoy the hobby as well as the kids (and yes, they will loose interest after awhile), then I really found that using LGB 1500 (or 5'-2") diameter is the bare minimum for a layout in a tight space. You can use the 1100 (3'-11" diameter) track, but as several folks have indicated, you are going to be limited by the size of locomotive and cars that you pull. 

Most "ole" timers recommend a starter set because you need to really know whether you are in it for the long haul or not. Spending a couple of hundred dollars in the beginning is usually cheap, but ask some of these guys how many "houses" they could buy with what they have invested over the years....LOL Ed.


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## avlisk (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, Ed. I'm a newbie, too, only 12 months into it now. Here's what I've learned: Large scale is expensive. The scale and radius and coupler standards will drive you nuts. Everyone loves Thomas, grown ups as well as kids. Surprisingly, even me! All code 332 brass track is compatible. It's rugged and recommended for outdoors. But boy, is it expensive! Piko manual turnouts are great. Use over-rail, rail clamps instead of those awful rail joiners. Buy used track from eBay, as new track will look used really quickly anyway. And a Scotchbrite pad does a great job of cleaning the rails, even on used track. Find a track-cleaning car on eBay that takes this pad, you can find them for around $50. Keep your track curves as wide as possible. 4 axle diesels, such as my USATrains GP38, need at least 8' diameter, but I'd recommend at least 10'. Amps are your friend. . .you need at least 5 amps to make sure your train will run. HO packs don't have enough. Large scale is expensive!. Keep your grades to 2% (2 inches in 100 inches), as it avoids excessive loco wear and changes in speed. Make sure your trackwork isn't too bumpy. 4 wheel wagons, like Thomas', will derail easily on uneven track. 4 axle wagons are more forgiving, but spot-on trackwork is a must, just like in HO and N. I use 3/8" crushed rock with the track free-floating, and it's enough to hold the track securely. LGB isn't the top of the line that I thought it was. Large scale is very expensive. Use metal wheels. You don't need traction tires on USA Trains locos and there are replacement wheels for them. It's a very addicting hobby. Everyone passing by the yard loves it. Large scale is very very expensive. You will learn by doing. . .simply build. And, did I mention it's very, very, very expensive. But I love it! 
Ken S.


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

Ed, I don't think that you have mentioned how long your space is, only that it is narrow. Rather than worrying about very sharp radius curves that limit your choice of engines and rolling stock, have you thought about a point to point RR? LGB and others make automatic reversing units. The train will go back and forth. I have used it for a cog RR and a short line that brings coal to my coaling tower. We also use it for a trolley track at our Christmas show at Colvin Run Park in northern Virginia. You could also use it in a "u" shaped layout with the open end at the narrow end and the curve at your wider point. You could put a station between the tracks at the open end. This would give you a longer run before it reverses.

Chuck 

Another advantage of the "U" shaped layout would be that you could spread the elevation gain over the entire length of the track, not just half of it.


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