# Concrete Roadbed Questions



## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

This has probably been asked and answered before, but I will ask again:

When pouring the concrete inside the forms for the roadbed, how do you attach the track?

Do you let the concrete harden and then just lay the track on top of it, or do you actually press the track down into the concrete as it hardens?

Also, what about ballast? Do you press ballast down into the concrete as it hardens?

After everything is set up, I assume that you would then backfill to the top of the roadbed with dirt.

I am going to give this hobby one more year of my time. So far, I have a nice layout for my track, but I spend so much time rerailing engines at turnouts it gets very frustrating. My present track is on the ground and held in place by ballast. It works most places as long as there are no turnouts.

To make things easier, could I use the concrete roadbed only where there are turnouts, making sure the roadbed is level in all directions?

John


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## Dr Rivet (Jan 5, 2008)

Marty Cozad, the "king of concrete roadbed" knows the best answers to those questions. He has probably tried any and every combination. I would trust his judgement on this topic. 

Earth to Marty....


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Just cast your pads smooth and place your switches on top. The 3 tracks leading to it will hold the switch in place. 
Keep ballast away from points and throw bar and you are good to go. 

Happy Rail and Best Holiday Wishes 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

JJ should speak up here too, I think his way of securing track has worked well and he's in Arizona, so if you have radical temperature swings, his technique works. 

Greg


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## PawPaw (Jun 8, 2012)

I followed Martys' advise this summer with concrete. I asked how he fastened the track down he said he used Tapcon screws about every two feet through the ties. Works great. Dan


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's a PDF of John J's method of anchoring the track.









John J's - Track Anchoring Method (PDF 220KB)[/b]


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 24 Dec 2012 01:45 PM 
This has probably been asked and answered before, but I will ask again:

When pouring the concrete inside the forms for the roadbed, how do you attach the track?

Do you let the concrete harden and then just lay the track on top of it, or do you actually press the track down into the concrete as it hardens?

***** let it harden and after 3 days or so use hammer drill to through tie into conrete. I use a 1/4 drive bit in my drill to install them. You want just enough to hold the track in place. not tie it down so tight it can flex some.

Also, what about ballast? Do you press ballast down into the concrete as it hardens?

****** I tried all types of glue etc with ballast. Simply put it on and brush it. The next spring simply take a glove on your hand and push the ballast back up and dress it.

After everything is set up, I assume that you would then backfill to the top of the roadbed with dirt.

*** No, if you want a raised roadbed modern mainline look ,no. Over the years it will fill in some.

I am going to give this hobby one more year of my time. So far, I have a nice layout for my track, but I spend so much time rerailing engines at turnouts it gets very frustrating. My present track is on the ground and held in place by ballast. It works most places as long as there are no turnouts.

*** I almost gave up the hobby till I spent more time and work at the beginning to save time later.
Last year I got into 1" scale and did the same thing. My G RR was not touched for over a year. The track had only a couple of rail clamps come lose, other than the weeds, it ran fine at the open house.
3/8" rebar runs through the center. Don't over think this, simple build 2" forms level side to side and go for it.
If you mess up you can still shim the track.

To make things easier, could I use the concrete roadbed only where there are turnouts, making sure the roadbed is level in all directions?

John


***E-mail me if I can help [email protected]


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

There may be more going on than what's under your switch(es). 
Mine are on dirt/ballast and nothing derails unless I pick the points. 
I have a hunch that the back to back wheel spacing is your problem, because guard rails are the only new variable added to the equation. 
Unless the ga through the switch is severly pinched, I suspect the backs of your wheels are climbing up on the guards. Instead of the guardrail holding the flange to the rail, it's forcing it up and off the rail. 
Before running I brush all ballast and stray grains out of the flange ways, because G trains run on their flanges to avoid the drop when passing through the frog. 
Check this first, you can save yourself a bunch of work, because it's possible you could redo your layout and still have the same problem.... 
What locos derail? 

I hope we can lead you to happier running. 

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll give a bit of strong advice: 

Forget the concrete roadbed and solve your fundamental problem, derailments at switches. Do what John said, check AND adjust the wheels on your rolling stock. Pretty easy with cars, more difficult with locos. 

Then check your switches... MANY off the shelf switches are way out of gauge. Buy the $10 Aristo track and wheel gauge, or get a pair of vernier calipers and measure. 

I've got a lot on my site about switches, how to fix, wheels, the standards, etc. 

When I started, I could only run a train of 6 cars on my inner loop, and not back up. 

Now I can run the following train for hours at a time with zero derailments. What is different? Wheels in gauge, and turnouts modified to meet specs.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg 
Nice road bed.LOL


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Marty LOL


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

I took some track and duplicated sections of my railroad in the garage on the concrete floor.

All my engines ran nicely through the switches on the floor, both forward and back.

That made me assume that the same switches out int he garden were not level enough. That was when I started thinking about concrete roadbed.

I guess the concrete should be about 4 inches thick and level side to side.

What type of material should I use to make the forms? I remember this plastic stuff that we used to use to separate flower beds from the grass. Is that stuff still made and does it work? I would need something that could be formed into curves.

John


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess you did not notice, all the switches are on gravel roadbed, ha ha! 

The concrete part is only 1/3 of the loop and is actually the most problematic, since I have to match the ballasted part to the concrete. 

But the switches were the problem, and fixing them was a major part of the solution. Two Aristo wide radius and one #6... all have issues right from the factory. 

I'll also tell you it is MUCH easier to level a switch on ballast... concrete needs to be perfectly level in both directions and if it settles you will have to shim the switch. 

Not saying against concrete, but I did a lot of experimentation, like hardi-backer under the switches... nothing was better than free floating, but I did not pour concrete for the switches. 

Greg


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 25 Dec 2012 10:34 AM:


SNIP 
"I took some track and duplicated sections of my railroad in the garage on the concrete floor.
All my engines ran nicely through the switches on the floor, both forward and back. 
That made me assume that the same switches out int he garden were not level enough." 
SNIP

John,
Did you try using the very same switch from the outdoor layout that was problematic when doing the garage testing?
When I was debugging my Aristo switches, I noticed subtle difference where some of the switches appeared to operate better than others as to derailments.

Thank you,
-Ted


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By jbwilcox on 25 Dec 2012 10:34 AM 
_{snip...}_ I guess the concrete should be about 4 inches thick and level side to side.

What type of material should I use to make the forms? I remember this plastic stuff that we used to use to separate flower beds from the grass. Is that stuff still made and does it work? I would need something that could be formed into curves. {snip...}[/i]
The following is a copy of Marty Cozad's MLS article on concrete roadbed in PDF format, maybe you'll find it of use.









Concrete Roadbed: Not as Hard as One Thinks (PDF 406KB)[/b]


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

John, 
All that proved is the track in the garage is ok. 
Can you get down close to the layout switches and see what's happening? 
With Chinese quality(?) control never assume they will be the same. I have two boxcars, ordered at the same time, painted the same. Yet they have faded to different colors. 
On running track, I ballast to near the tie tops, in switches I use a thin layer for looks and none that can foul the points and throw bar underneath. On my old track powered oval, my go fast nephews never derailed and both switches were tilted! Of course I'm fussy about my track and I make my sectional track as near smooth as bent flex. I see kinks in vids and cringe to myself and yet somehow the trains make it! 

One other question; Are there any grade changes leading into them? OK 2, What brand and size locos? 

I hope the rest of your Christmas is happy. 

John


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have all of my track on concrete roadbed and am expanding, pouring more concrete this weekend (I live in Arizona where the temp is 70 degrees these days!). Your track is only as good as the weakest link so pour your concrete carefully and get it right as it grinds very hard. To secure my track I fill the bottom of a tie about every 8 inches with silcone caulking and use that to "glue" it in place. The caulking will take 24 hours to cure so use some bricks or other weight to hold it in place until it cures. After it has cured the track will be held in place but the caulking is flexable enough to allow the track to move a little as the weather changes and the track expands and contracts. If you live someplace like I do where you get a lot of expansion and contraction use little gaps between the sections to allow for expansion. I try to lay all of my track in the summet when it is 115 degrees so I don't have to worry about track expansion but when I do lay track in the winter like now I allow about 1/8" between 4 foot sections. I used to get GE Silicon II from Home Depot but that stuff has gotten to $7.00 a tube so now I buy the cheap stuff from Wal-Mart at $3.50 a tube. I get the clear stuff not the brown colored stuff. Same price. Some of my track has been out in the elements for over 6 years glued down that way. From what I can tell it is holding fine. I'm not going to tear up track just to see if it still glued down! Get it in the right spot as after it has cured it is really hard to get up. I have bent and ruined track trying to get it back up after I screwed it up. Eventually I will ballast my track but I haven't found any ballast I like so I haven't done that yet. As I hope to be laying more track in a few weeks I will try to remember to take pictures and post them.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

rpc: 

have you left the track unmodified? (if Aristo, left the screws in, if other, not modified it?) 

With securing it every 8 inches or so with some "give", theoretically, it should behave very well and the gaps between rails should not all "accumulate" in one place, i.e. tight joints in one place, 3/4" gaps in others. 

Just wondering this information since you have some track down for 6 years. (also curious to brand of track, and type of rail material and joiners) 

Regards, Greg


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

If you need to adjust the wheels on your rolling stock Check Greg's web site.


I think he has pictures of my tool for adjusting gauge. 

JJ


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## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

All of my track is LGB. It doesn't have screws in it but it does have dummy rail joiners in places on long sections of track. I don't use rail clamps much, just the stock rail joiners. (I run mostly battery power) I do run track power also and in 6 years of operation I have only had one joint where the electric did not go thru the rail joiner. That was solved by cleaning up the joint as best as I could and putting a rail clamp over the rail joiner and torqueing it down as tight as I could get it. If I were to do it all over again I would put a conductive paste on all of the rail joiners before I installed the track.


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## astrayelmgod (Jan 2, 2008)

"I have bent and ruined track trying to get it back up after I screwed it up." 

Use a putty knife with a narrow blade, and a hammer. Works great.


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## jbwilcox (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the best way to form the curves?

I was thinking of 1/8th thick masonite or something similar. It looks like it could be bent.

I think all my curves are 10 foot diameter Aristocraft.

John


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

1/4" thick or even thin plywoods riped long wise. 
1/8" you may only get a couple pours before it gets mushy. 

















don't for get the 3/8" rebar in middle.


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## Dick413 (Jan 7, 2008)

Marty 
did you ever oil your forms?


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

No need to, most of it is scrap wood from jobs. 


















Misc photos that might help others.

FYI
My current cost per foot with brand new Aristo Alum track with shipping cost=2.46 ft track, .12 cents rebar, .50 cents concrete(portland and limestone screenings) = $3.08 per ft.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

In reference to the "JJ" tool, a very clever and simple modification to a "C" clamp:










See the bottom of this page on how to easily adjust the gage of wheels with this tool:

*http://www.elmassian.com...trong>** 




http://www.elmassian.com/trains/misc-train-stuff/tools-aamp-accessories*


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