# Holy Crap! Bachmann Live Steam!



## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I'll be a son of a gun...

http://120pointme.blogspot.com/2009/03/since-word-is-leaking-out.html

(Now I know why my Bmann K27 had poor QC! They were too busy working on this!!







)


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## Russell Miller (Jan 3, 2008)

Runs like a RUBY !
Russ


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## parkdesigner (Jan 5, 2008)

I think it may BE a Ruby... (or at least reverse engineered from one perhaps? Sure looks like one to me in those videos, no?)


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably from the same maker? That vid is old, dating from the brass Q details from a few months back....


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Not a Ruby, but it certainly looks like Accucraft tooling from their elec 8 Ton Porter. 
This Bachmann Porter is a nice looking engine, I'll have one of these! 

David.


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)

Why would they offer a engine that looks identical to a Ruby?


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## David Rose (Jan 2, 2008)




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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Its Ruby mechanicals ..the reverselinkage /lever, cylinders,controls are identical..looks Ok though.


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

HMMM...... 

Looks like different drivers, different cylinders, different driver spacing, different linkage........but maybe that's just me. 

redbeard AKA Larry Newman SA #1956


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree, I see nothing in that anything like Ruby, its all new parts, it may have engineering concept similar to Ruby, but thats about it. It way better proportioned that any of the Ruby variants - and is of an actual prototype. 

David.


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks like he run into something by the look of that pilot step


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

It looks to me like the result of something the guy who left AccuCraft might have had falling into his briefcase when he left them, and then pulled out when he walked through the doors of Bachmann's manufacturing facility..... 

Whatever, if it can be made to work like the 'Ruby' can be made to work - and looking at the video it certainly looks like a controllable runner to me - then I'm good with that. 

The hobby benefits. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I see nothing in that anything like Ruby,

Well, running with the smokebox door slightly ajar so it doesn't whistle...  

I wouldn't be surprised if it's made by Accucraft, or at least in conjunction with them. While different enough from the Ruby in terms of proportions, the construction is virtually identical. It's the same boiler--down to the two-tone paint and smokebox door. Everything else on it is at the very least mechanically identical to the Ruby, if not physically so. The crosshead guides are a nice plus. 

Here's Accu's electric Porter for comparison: 









Looks like a very attractive melding of the Ruby and Porter. I have to say "about time," as I've always felt Accucraft was short-changing themselves by not coming out with a reasonably detailed loco based on the Ruby components. It would be nice if they painted the cylinders on the production loco. 

Later, 

K


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Call it a 'Ruter' then.... 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


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## redbeard (Jan 2, 2008)

"It's the same boiler--down to the two-tone paint and smokebox door"

I used a program called "Raildriver ScalePrint" (purchased from Raildriver.com) to scale old photos when I built my Ruby - Mason Bogie a while back. (Great program!) If we assume that the Porter in the picture is built with Ruby parts then the cylinders measure 1.104 inches from bottom of cylinder to top of valve. I know this because I have a loose one to measure. So I scaled the photo using that measurement, and the boiler scales to a 1/4 inch smaller(1 1/2 inch) diameter than the Ruby boiler. Using a picture of an Ida as a test, I did the same thing and the boiler measures (1 3/4 inch) correctly. Also the drivers scale to a smaller diameter on the Porter picture. So the proportions do not match up with the Ruby/Ida proportions. Here are the scaled pictures.




















So I really don't feel that the Porter is built with "Ruby" parts.

redbeard AKA Larry Newman SA #1956


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellant technique!


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Well done Larry, just confirming what I can easily see with the eyes, not to mention boiler height and so on. Yes, uses Ruby engineering, but different sizes, different proportions, all new parts. 
and much better proportioned overall. 

David.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone else notice the QJ on the Bachmann Youtube site?


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

They arre just using the same factory that Accucraft trains uses, Just as the guy in the UK that commissioned the 4MT I think. BMMC built it for him and its not sold through Accucraft or marketed as Accucraft. 

I would of hoped that they didnt use the 3/8" cylinders though, its going to have the same running speed and no low speed. Nevermind still cant makle grades. I bet though the Accuycraft 1/2" cylinders on the Forney can be swapped out thoguh. 

I do like they used a smaller boiler, i was just talking to Ada yesterday that they should make the Porter in steam. My thoughts were to convert one and keep the orignal cylinders and use a small 1cyl geared to the wheels like regner. i dont want to loose the charm of the small cylinders nor the boiler. with the gearing you can run as slow as you want up grades and pull too. 

If they get it out, id probally buy one, after I see it run of course.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Good analysis Larry!


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Duh... How'd I miss the lack of smokebox dogs on the B-mann smokebox? Definitely a different front, and I'm not one to argue with photo analysis, since I do it all the time myself researching EBT prototypes. Definitely taken from Accucraft's design playbook, which means those of us who have bashed Rubys will be in very familiar territory when this one comes out. Maybe I do see a model of Rockhill Iron & Coal furnace switcher #1 in the future. 

Later, 

K


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Uh, what 35 inch-long red and black 2-10-2 steam locomotive might that have been?









tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## kfrankl3 (Feb 27, 2008)

Already on Evilbay


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## dwegmull (Jan 2, 2008)

posted By vsmith on 03/28/2009 10:23 PM
Anyone else notice the QJ on the Bachmann Youtube site? 



I wish it were live steam...


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## FH&PB (Jan 2, 2008)

This has taken an interesting turn. 

It seems that the company building these things for Bachmann is run by a couple of former Accucraft employees who *stole a bunch of plans from Accucraft when they left.* No wonder they look so much like a Ruby! The owners of Accucraft will probably have the police on them. I doubt very much that Bachmann knew any of this, but until the legal stuff is clarified, I intend to steer clear of the loco. Personally, I don't want to reward this kind of criminal enterprise (the Chinese factory, not Bachmann).


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

That's very interesting indeed. Wonder what else they're building.....


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Here's the company's web site: 
http://www.bowande.cn/product/eindex.asp?type_type=1&type_class=2 

The banner photo look familiar? It should... 
http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=46 

Note the use of the word "integrity" in the banner. Nice touch. 

The other two locos on that page should look familiar, also. The 2-6-4 is (shall we say) patterned after an Accucraft loco, while the 2-10-2 "electric motorcycle" looks like B'mann's 1:29 chinese steam loco. (Whether they lifted it from B'mann, or are producing it for them, who knows?) 

Later, 

K


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

owners of Accucraft will probably have the police on them


What police - the Chinese? ROFL!


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## Scottychaos (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont think the Porter is 1/20.3.. 
look at the youtube videos again: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru6xgolhBUM&feature=channel 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiS_NEqJC9w&feature=channel 


The cab is barely wider than the gauge of the rails.. 
if it was 1/20.3 the cab would be about 4 feet wide and 5 feet tall.. 

but if its 1/32, the cab is now 6 feet wide and 7 feet tall..which makes more sense. 

Those are just rough estimates based only on the videos.. 
I dont believe anyone has real measurements yet.. 
but its looking like its 1/32 to me.. 

Not that it really matters much..if the cab does end up being too small for 1/20.3, 
it will be easy to simply add a new cab.. 

And I see "Chinese cloning" has finally reached our hobby.. 
its nothing new.. 
China is cloning Honda lawnmower engines, that have now reached 
America on cheap lawnmowers and snow blowers.. 

basically they just take apart a real Honda engine, clone all the parts, 
and make a duplicate engine..stealing the decades of R&D, Intellectual property, patents, etc that went into the product.. 
they arent of the same high quality though.. 

Looks like these "clone" accucraft steamers are the exact same concept.. 
stolen designs.. 

China is also cloning (stealing) ENTIRE CARS! 

http://www.motorauthority.com/attack-of-the-clones-chinese-copies-of-the-honda-cr-v.html 

I expect to see them for sale at Walmart within 10 years.. 
and sadly, im not joking.. 

Scot


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

maybe that's why the locomotives are listed as "Motorcycles?"


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## David Fletcher (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey Scot, 
I dont know if these can help your assessment - I have the lil Accucraft Eureka Porter, which was a 6 Ton Porter (2ft gauge originally) which is 20.3 scale - the design and drawings originally worked on by Uncle Russ around 2000. The cab height is 95mm, cab width 88mm, length 79mm to the rear wall of cab, not overhang. Russ published his drawings in FR some years back. Can you see if this new LS version is around the same size. The boiler is probably a good deal fatter than the elec version's 32mm. 
I dont see this engine as a clone, cloning is when a copy is made with no design input into it...if this were a clone, it would be Ruby with new paint...it aint that at all. This is a model that Accucraft have never made in live steam - someone has designed this. Its not a Ruby, but uses Ruby design concept in a new parts (smaller parts). It is possible that it is indeed an Accucraft design for something they were yet to announce, or had built in the past as a test sample, but never released, or is something new, especially if the cab is a different size afterall. The tooling of the cab is way simpler than the Acc elec version, which has a lot more detail on the wall sides and cornice. 

David.


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

While we are guessing the size of the little grunter, here's my take on it. 
All speculation of course... 










Andrew


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## majral (Jan 13, 2008)

Posted By tacfoley on 03/28/2009 6:06 AM
It looks to me like the result of something the guy who left AccuCraft might have had falling into his briefcase when he left them, and then pulled out when he walked through the doors of Bachmann's manufacturing facility..... 

Whatever, if it can be made to work like the 'Ruby' can be made to work - and looking at the video it certainly looks like a controllable runner to me - then I'm good with that. 

The hobby benefits. 

tac 
www.ovgrs.org


The ownership of the design and toolings should be an interesting one for international Copyright Lawyers. Does the company or individual commissioning the model or the manufacturer retain the intellectual and manufacturing rights?

While Accucraft or Blackstone may produce the original concept, the detail design and tooling would be developed and controlled by the manufacturer. As far as I know Bachmann is owned and controlled by the parent company Kadar. 

Can anyone comment on whether Kadar produce the O scale brass models sold under the Bachmann label in house or through subcontractors?


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

And just where does the H. K. Porter Company's interests fit in? Since its locomotive is what's being modeled here.


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## brasstrain (Aug 20, 2010)

Your guesses are not far from truth .. That Wuhu outfit was setup by a 'team' who left Accucraft, and took all the drawings with them - Outright Theft.
if you look at their website - all photogrphs of other people's models, misleading you to think they produced them all - Total Deception.
the porter, etc - 'improvision' , but with old engineering design - at best, functions like earlier Accucraft's ...

To some end users, it may not matter who produced these models ...
*To the business community, just beware .*
Accucraft will get these bastards - possibly confiscate all those counterfeits .
I wouldn't touch that Wuhu outfit with a ten foot pole .. and definitely would not support their 'venture' .


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By brasstrain on 20 Aug 2010 12:04 PM 
Your guesses are not far from truth .. That Wuhu outfit was setup by a 'team' who left Accucraft, and took all the drawings with them - Outright Theft.
if you look at their website - all photogrphs of other people's models, misleading you to think they produced them all - Total Deception.
the porter, etc - 'improvision' , but with old engineering design - at best, functions like earlier Accucraft's ...

To some end users, it may not matter who produced these models ...
*To the business community, just beware .*
Accucraft will get these bastards - possibly confiscate all those counterfeits .
I wouldn't touch that Wuhu outfit with a ten foot pole .. and definitely would not support their 'venture' .






Sadly for many people in the west there appear to be no copyright laws in China that are actually enforceable without the lodging of the following details -

1. ALL the original drawings, plans and so on that have allegedly been copied - page by page - at a ferocious indivudual page by page cost - each page must be a 'proven sworn' document' in its own right .

2. ALL the company documentation referring to the original model from concept to production, as well as a detailed independent assessment of the damage done to the company by the alleged infringement of their copyright.

3. A VERY large sum of money to be drawn on for use by the litigation team to carry out their in-China investigations...

There is a lot more but I'm pretty sure you get the picture.

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Does that mean that all of the Wuhu live steam locos offered on their website are made fro plans stolen from Accucraft?


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## zubi (May 14, 2009)

Posted By Tom Leaton on 20 Aug 2010 02:57 PM 
Does that mean that all of the Wuhu live steam locos offered on their website are made fro plans stolen from Accucraft? 
Tom, there are only two to date. And this subject has been discussed at length already. Accucraft never made a live steam Porter (although they should have done that) and WUHU Porter is an original WUHU design. With 4M things there may be more 'similarities' between the early Accucraft prototype and the WUHU model. Whether they referred to 'stolen plans' or the actual stolen prototype model is pretty immaterial at this stage, as this has not been proven to be a theft. It is quite difficult to copyright 'look and feel' of a live steamer. One thing I personally would prefer not to see in live steam is companies suing each other, as we would have to finance the lawyers. If you want an Accucraft, buy an Accucraft, if you prefer a WUHU, buy a WUHU, they are significantly different. Remember what people were saying when Accucraft first released live steam Daylight? It looks like Aster Daylight, sort of..., right? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi 
PS I'm off to JAM2010


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## Bob in Mich (Mar 8, 2008)

One of our Club Members just got the English one from England.He was told it was a Accucraft,Suprise it was a WUHU,Take a Look http://picasaweb.google.com/weltyk/...feat=email#


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## Tenn Steam (Jan 3, 2008)

Perhaps my old eyes deceive me but the cylinders appear to be level while Porters were inclined. Also having seen a WUHU run, I'd be surprised if Bachmann would stake their reputation on it. It does have two cylinders and four wheels, a boiler and a cab-does this make it a Ruby copy?
Bob


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## Brit steam (Aug 21, 2010)

Posted By Bob in Mich on 20 Aug 2010 08:32 PM 
One of our Club Members just got the English one from England.He was told it was a Accucraft,Suprise it was a WUHU,Take a Look http://picasaweb.google.com/weltyk/...feat=email# 
It is amazing how things are re-alighned to suit people selling these items, the 4MT is an interesting example, as has been well documented it come from an early protoype manufactured by Accucraft for a UK company, due to the "requirement" over here for a minimum of 30 minutes running (this derives from track days where you are allocated this time slot) the model was re-engineered for meths and the valve gear changed to a more simple solution. The early prototype then re-emerged as a WUHU "design" 

Sadly there is no formal dealership network for these models if you have the cash to buy the minimum quantity you are in business, but as your friend may find out, if it is the one I think that was bought on eBay, the seller has gone! There have beeen several of these sold on Uk eBay for not much more than £800 brand new as the deficiencies are revealed (no boiler certificate, no certificate for the gas tank (which expands under pressure) variations in tolerances that may have to be remilled, maximum 10 minutes running time without serious modification.

I think it is irresponsible for anyone to sell these to other than experienced runners who are prepared to see this a a basis for a project and carry out the necessary modifications. They are not a beginner model and if anything bad did happen I can guarantee that there will be little or no trail of liability how many of us posess public liability insurance as standard. It certainly is a case of buyer beware


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello Brit Steam, 
Welcome to this forum. 
Do you have a 'real' name, or are you not willing to say who you are? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Carful David, I opened a can of worms over on the Public Form when I brought up the subject of “pen” names.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Dan, 
OH yes, I see what you mean! 
I never have time to go to many other forums. 
Sorry Brit Steam, you may remain anonymous if you so wish! 
All the best, 
Can Steam (formerly known as David Leech, Delta, Canada)


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## mikemartin (Feb 14, 2008)

Interesting thread - especially the part about these former employees stealing Accucraft's design. 

Does anyone remember the story of how Accucraft brought their GS4 to market? While Accucraft's GS4s are not clones of Aster locomotives (they'd pull like them if they were), I remember hearing stories of Aster GS4s being sent to Accucraft in China for dissasembly and "documentation". Can anyone corroborate this - or were these just rumors? 

Mike


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

I know David Passard gave Bing at least 2 Aster Daylights to use/copy. As we all know they did little coping of the working part.


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Mike, 
You are quite correct. 
One of the regular attendees of the National Summer Steamup in California was proud to tell us that he supplied not one, but two Aster Daylights to Accucraft for them to duplicate. 
When they first had the alcohol version there, Dan and I put an Aster and an Accucraft one side by side with the smokebox doors open to compare and realised that Accucraft hadn't managed to copy the tube layout of the boiler correctly. 
Close, but not identical. 
Obviously they didn't have the same diameter material so kind of assumed that it wasn't important to get that, and the spacing between tubes the same, hence they don't steam the same! 
You can't just kind of copy something without the knowledge as to why it is built the way it is! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Perhaps the changes were to soften an infringement claim. 
A 10% change is required in some trades to not infringe.... which is handy when making molds of existing jewelry... add up the rubber and wax and metal shrinkage and you get 10%! 
The outline is set by the prototype, so you change the guts and skate. 

John


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## Dan Pantages (Jan 2, 2008)

Cost would have been the reason for changes.


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## finescalebrass (Sep 2, 2010)

There is a lot of effort going in building an authentic model - researching the background, many museum visits, photographing the preserved units, locate the original work drawings, seek advices from experts, etc ,etc .. It generally takes months and months, then the design work and making a sample, which is to be critiqued by folks like yourselves .. then come sample revision, more comments and changes , before going into production.

Pirating others’ models does no good for us all . 
A pirated model can be no better than the original work.
And such act discourages others to take the risk of building a good model only to be pirated . So, it does not serve the modelling public.

We at SanCheng/FineScaleBrass.com do not endorse pirating. We do not even use others’ model as references*. All our work are based on original research work, works drawings, photographs, and each project takes easily over year and half to accomplish. We take price in what we do, and the public appreciate our work .. and that is the way it should be.*
(we do contracted model building, but we decline any request that are not accompanied with original research work. We refuse all who came and ask us to just copy this, or make some change to that.)

*At I am writing this message, I know our models are being copied by others *..
As a result, we have to divert our resources to defend ourselves against such piracy.
We also have to stop being so open about what we are doing. We may have to prematurely release our models, instead of trying to perfect it before going into production.And worst of all,we have to be very conservative in investing in new projects .The result is that the hobby community will see less good work from the model builders.

San Cheng/FineScaleBrass


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

we do contracted model building, but we decline any request that are not accompanied with original research work

Nice work too . . those UK guys get some beautiful models. And check out the Bachmann brass stuff linked at the bottom of the Gallery page. 

 FineScaleBrass.com by SanCheng Crafts


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## Brit steam (Aug 21, 2010)

David


If you are familiar with Top Gear










Some say I eat fish & chips for breakfast


Some say my electric mice will be the end of kit building 


Some say they should be banned totally and we should all run coal fired


My wife just says I'm mad


this is me http://www.finescalebrass.co.uk/


you will see a rebuilt Scot announced for next year


this is an announcement from a Wuhu UK "distributer" 1 month after we started to publicise the new model
*** MORE NEWS*** WE SHALL BE OFFERING A NEW RANGE OF G1 LOCOS FROM CHINA – ROYAL SCOT, 8F, RAILCARS ETC – STAY WITH US, PRE ORDER (NO CHARGE FOR THIS) AND WE GUARANTEE THE BEST UK MAINLAND PRICE. ****** GRESLEY A4 STREAMLINER IS COMING – TELL US IF INTERESTED FIRST COME FIRST SERVED – NO DEPOSITS YET.

Not a lot of incentive to invest more

Your coaches was part of the reason I was attracted to G1 in the first place, real man sized railway modelling, now if you have an odd rake of pullmans lying around









I do run live steam as well as electic all Britsh BR period outline

John












Posted By David Leech on 21 Aug 2010 10:56 AM 
Hello Brit Steam, 
Welcome to this forum. 
Do you have a 'real' name, or are you not willing to say who you are? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello John, 
Once again, welcome to the group. 
Nice stuff! 
Is an 'odd' rake of Pullmans 5,7 or 9, whereas an 'even' rake would be 6,8 or 10?? 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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## David Leech (Dec 9, 2008)

Posted By David Leech on 23 Aug 2010 12:11 AM 
Hi Mike, 
You are quite correct. 
One of the regular attendees of the National Summer Steamup in California was proud to tell us that he supplied not one, but two Aster Daylights to Accucraft for them to duplicate. 
When they first had the alcohol version there, Dan and I put an Aster and an Accucraft one side by side with the smokebox doors open to compare and realised that Accucraft hadn't managed to copy the tube layout of the boiler correctly. 
Close, but not identical. 
Obviously they didn't have the same diameter material so kind of assumed that it wasn't important to get that, and the spacing between tubes the same, hence they don't steam the same! 
You can't just kind of copy something without the knowledge as to why it is built the way it is! 
All the best, 
David Leech, Delta, Canada 
It has been brought to my attention that my 'story' was not accucrate.
The gentleman in question only let Accucraft have one of his Aster Daylights, strictly to help them with their 'large' locomotive design and production.
There was, if I understand correctly, no actual copying of anything.
Accucraft had been supplied with a complete set of original builders plans to build their Daylight. 
I apologise for getting the facts incorrect.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada


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