# Taking a plunge into DCC



## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I ordered the NCE ProCab R system with the 10A booster and it should arrive shortly.

I was wondering which power supply I should use with it. I have 2 MRC power packs, one is the G and the other is a smaller one but goes to 22V. Both put out rectified AC. I also have a Mean Well (I think that's what it is) 24V 10A switching power supply. 


I only have the LGB trolley with a DCC decoder in it so I don't need lots of current yet.

Are there any distinct of one over the other? The bigger G one I use with MTH trains on DCS so I probably won't use that one for now. 


Tom


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom the mean well one would do good for ya> I use the Aristo switchable Elite and set to 13 amps works great with my NCE system. I know that is what Greg uses. Later RJD


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I use the Meanwell 12 amp 24 volt model--I think it's the S-320-24

You'll love the NCE rig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Use the meanwell, it works great, and the voltage is just right. 

Be sure to visit my site for the tips on adjusting the output voltage of the NCE booster, it is adjustable, and it needs to be turned up to the max in your new hardware. 

Regards, Greg


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Here tiz grab em up!! Buying direct expensive, Evil Bay Priceless! Take a look Regal


Mean Well S-320-24 Power Supply(s) - working takeouts - eBay (item 350324931061 end time Apr-04-10 12:02:55 PDT)


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## jimtyp (Jan 2, 2008)

What decoder do you have in your Trolley? Is it one of the older LGB versions?


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

I purchased the trolley about a year ago, I have no idea how long it sat on the shelves. It is an LGB New Orleans model. The manual says it supports MTS and goes on to describe a boat load of CV registers. I think I checked its capability with Massoth a while ago and they indicated that it was DCC compatible ... they were also quite eager to "upgrade" my MTH trains to be be compatible. It does not have sound, yet. 

Tom


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## Michael Benke (Jan 8, 2008)

I have upgraded my system from LGB to Massoth and love it. Klaus Stork is great at solving DCC issues with LGB or any other Mfg. They are not cheap but there workmanship is top notch and they are always available to help with your questions. I have been more than glad that I went with Massoth. I have had it running for three years and have never had one problem.


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The ProCab system arrived yesterday. Since the weather was not cooperating, I set up a test track in the living room to test it out. 

The system went together pretty quickly, mostly making cables, hooking it up and making sure that everything was correct. The ProCab manual indicated that the max voltage was 22V (AC but it didn't say anything about DC) so I backed the power supply down to 22V to start with. 

The first attempt the trolley moved up and down the track, it took a little bit of button pushing to get the lights to turn on. One issue was that the head light would turn on and off based on whether the throttle was an even or odd value ... very strange. Also all the lights were very dim. I visited Greg's website and went through his recommendations for setting voltages and such and that brought the lights back to full brightness but didn't change the headlight behavior. 

This afternoon I set up a loop so I had a little more time to observe the trains behavior prior to running off the track. 

The LGB decoder does not respond to "Programming on the Main", something that wasn't obvious at first. I also missed the point that all decoders are shipped with a "3" short address from the factory. I changed over to the programming track and stepped through the programming sequence using the ProCab menus. Whatever I changed, made the headlight work correctly, I was also able to set the long address to the trolley number plate and modified the momentum settings so that it was more realistic. 

Not being satisfied, I downloaded JMRI (one of the real reasons I wanted to use DCC in the first place) and brought it up. I was able to explore the decoder, although that didn't really shed a lot of light on what parameters control what. I was also able to run the train from the PanelPro Throttle. While looking through the help screens, I ran across a reference to the IPhone ... I followed the link and downloaded the WiThrottle Lite App and stuck it on my IPod, I also started the WiThrottle Server on the computer. Amazingly, the IPod found the computer and connected to the trolley ... the whole mess worked pretty much as expected, I did notice at least one small hesitation in responding to a command so maybe using WiThrottle for yard operations might not be a good idea. 

So the next step is to get DCC running in the backyard, that needs to wait for the grass to dry out a little bit. 

In looking over this experience, I have the following comments: 
1) The ProCab made configuring the LGB decoder easier than trying to do it manually, following the LGB manual. The LGB manual is pretty useless unless you really understand what it is describing. I don't pretend to know exactly what I did right or wrong, but it ultimately worked. 
2) The Power Booster manual talks about using a maximum of 22VAC, it doesn't say anything about its DC voltage range (it is printed on the booster in small print though). I wasted a bit of time before I turned up the power supply output voltage to 24V as recommended by Greg's tutorial when I finally found the note. 
3) This whole process seemed to go a lot smoother than a year ago when it took several posts to this forum just to get the locomotive to wake up using DCS. On the other hand, the experience with DCS educated me on what I wanted in a DCC system. 
4) Programming on the Main doesn't work with the LGB/MTS decoder although it appeared to work just fine, it is just that nothing changed inside the decoder. 
5) The ProCab manual has a lot of information in it. Maybe a little bit more in the Quick Start or maybe an addendum for the quick start on what to do next might be helpful. It is a good thing that the trolley was still fresh out of the box and had the default "3" short address still in it, it didn't appear that if that hadn't worked how long it would have taken to determine what the address really was. 

So, I am happy with the NCE system. I am looking forward to adding it to the rest of the garden layout. The IPod interface is nifty but the ProCab is radio controlled so it isn't on the critical path, yet. Now I am really getting anxious about getting the MTH PS3 system for the 2 locomotives so the whole system can run under DCC with the computer attached. 

Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The NCE system will take 27 volts DC as an input for sure (and maybe higher). You "lose" about 3 volts from input DC to output to the rails... I use 27 volts DC input, and a modified booster (NCE will do this for you) to get 24 volts to the rails. 

with 24 volts dc input, you will get about a maximum of 21 volts to the rails. This is fine for 90% of the people. I wanted my slow running E8 to achieve prototype speeds. 

Yes, LGB decoders don't have all the functionality of the most current and modern decoders, and often the functions also work differently, read up on "serial function commands", the very early LGB decoders had this too. 

Sounds like you took the plunge and did great! 

Regards, Greg


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

your headlight was alternating on/off with throttle settings because it is a 14 step decoder. Headlights on 14 step decoders use bit 5 to control the headlight, not normally used in 14 step mode. When you send 28/128 step commands to it, bit 5 is the LSB so that every time you change the speed step by one notch, the LSB flips and the decoder interprets that as a headlight command. 

When you did your programming, you probably put the command station into 14 step mode for that address.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The NCE has a 14/28 button on the throttle, you can press it at anytime to see what George was talking about. 

So George, on 14 step decoders, it's bit 5 of the speed command that gets interpreted as headlight control? Wild... 

Regards, Greg


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

The LGB manual indicates that controller supports 28 steps. At one point I set the ProCab to 28 steps, that may be when it started working. Prior to that it seemed like I would change 3 or 4 positions and the speed didn't change but the light turned on and off. Maybe the ProCab was writing it 128 steps instead. 

Tom


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

the settings from the procab button is 14 or 28 and 128.... there are only 2 protocols to send. The decoder decides between 28 and 128 if you are in that mode. 

It sure sounds like a 14 step decoder. Is it possible you have a manual for a newer version of the decoder that you actually have? 

Regards, Greg


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Tom,

Cool app with the I-phone. When I first got my I-phone i thought that it would be a great app but it looks like someone beat me to it. Oh well, more time for running trains then programming. Will make it nice to know that you can have a backup smaller controller if needed. 


Any advice on best place to shop for the best deal on NCE systems?

Tim Headings


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## Tom Bray (Jan 20, 2009)

As far as the number of steps, it appears that it changes speed with every step and it has 28 different steps. On the JMRI software I had to force it to be 28 steps and then things worked correctly from the computer, I tried using the throttle with the slider but when I would hit the stop button the trolley would continue to creep along. 

I will play with decoder more later, I think the NCE system had no idea what it was really talking to until I went through the programming steps using the programming track, trying to program it "on the main" may have been its downfall. The ProCab was fresh out of the box and LGB Trolley was brand new when I got it a year ago but have only run it on DC so who knows what the defaults were set to. I did notice that the ProCab would report back the changed values when I tried to program the trolley using the main line but if I cycled power, the values disappeared. It also reported different vendor and version codes when I put it on the programming track ... again, my suspicion that programming it on the main was the problem. 

Tim: 
I bought the NCE system from H&R Trains in Tampa. They had the lighter weight version for HO but I got to play with it and look through all the stuff that came with it. They also had a Digitrax unit and all the pieces for the LGB MTS system so I got to mull over the whole mess and decide what I liked and what I didn't. They also put me in touch with a customer that had just purchased the same product that I was considering. 

I have a rule that if a "brick and mortar" store has the product and they work with me, I try to find a way to justify buying it from them. I do have a limit of what I will pay over the internet prices or the larger stores that I have purchased from, but I don't publish how I make that decision. 

As far as the IPhone App, I was glad to see it but at the same time, I was also considering building my own version of it. After I get a little further along I will upgrade to the full app, right now the lite version is more than adequate. I am planning on digging into the JMRI package as soon as I have a little more of the layout automated, who know what will come out of that, especially if I can read through the code used to make the WiThrottle server. 

Tom


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## tmmhead (Feb 22, 2008)

Tom, 

Thanks for the follow-up and I am familiar with H&R being over here in Jacksonville. Enjoy the new toys. 

Tim


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, the system cannot read the decoder's speed step capability or setting on the main line. 

So, the NCE throttle just puts out commands in the mode you select, 14 or 28/128. 

Regards, Greg


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## RailCat (Apr 10, 2009)

Hello Everyone, 

Please pardon the intrusion but I have a theory on what fixed the streetcar's headlight. 

I have had the LGB DCC system and the LGB decoder programmer. I also had an NCE DCC system until I switched to Digitrax in order to get radio capability. Now that NCE has radio with repeaters, I would like to switch back to NCE at some point and have been downloading the manuals. 

I noted the same on-off headlight behavior from an LGB Porter with a factory equipped DCC decoder when run on the NCE system. Believing that LGB was perhaps not completely DCC compliant, I purchased an LGB system with the Type III Central Station. The locomotive ran normally although throttle response was not fantastic. I later learned the headlight problem comes from running a 14 step decoder on a NCE system set to 28-128. I now run the Porter plus a factory DCC LGB four wheel diesel switcher and an LGB well-tank steam switcher with the LGB Loco Decoder II with the Digitrax system with no problems. I am quite sure they would perform equally well under NCE if I still had that system. 

I do not know about the earliest LGB decoders but I know most if not all the modern LGB decoders are capable of 14 or 28 step control. Tom's streetcar certainly is and may have the same decoder as my Porter and diesel. My LGB DCC system was 14 step only. When using the LGB computer-decoder programmer, there was even a warning that popped up when you switched the decoder to 28 step mode stating that an LGB system would not be able to operate the locomotive. All LGB locomotives and decoders shipped in 14 step mode by default. 

When Tom ran the NCE setup sequence on the programming track and set a 4 digit address, his NCE system reset CV 29 to 28 step mode in the process automatically, fixing the headlight. 

Greg: 
Great website. I have found lots of interesting bits of information there. Especially the part about disassembling USAT Blomberg trucks. My 1:29 scale loco is a GP30 which hasn't been run yet. I need to replace those traction wheelsets. I have replacement solid wheelsets on hand but haven't done the swap yet. I am also trying to decide whether to install a QSI Magnum or go with an NCE D808SR decoder paired with a Soundtraxx Tsunami for sound. The possibilities of manually notched prime mover sounds is very tempting. 

Scott


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

As Scott says, the decoder in the trolley would definitely be capable of 28 speed steps. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about LGB decoders and what they are or aren't capable of. 

This may be a dumb question, but why does NCE have a 14/28/128 speed step button on the controller? Don't you set the speed steps to match what the decoder is programmed for when you set up each loco from the handheld? For example, when I set up a new loco on my navigator, it asks if the loco is serial/parallel, 14, 28 or 128 speed steps, then things like name, picture, address as usual, but once it's set up you never need to change it. If you have a visiting loco you can change it if needed. Maybe I've answered my own question--you use that button for visiting locos and that's the only time you need it? 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Keith, the NCE allows you to choose the mode you want to run in. 

The NCE system does not store per/loco information the same way as the Massoth. The Massoth, like the Zimo, keeps more of the specific loco information in the system. The NCE does not put pictures of the loco on the screen. The NCE is a simple, straightforward system, the Massoth and Zimo have more bells and whistles, but the corresponding increase in complexity, if only by virtue of more options. 

So, if you put a foreign loco on the track, since 99% of everything nowadays, it runs, no matter what system. If your foreign loco is 14 speed steps, the button is right there on the throttle with the NCE... I assume that you have to go through a number of steps on the Zimo or Massoth. 

There are always tradeoffs. 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting, but that must be a real pain if you have different decoders with different speed steps set in your different locos, no? I guess if most of your stuff is non-LGB than you probably would have everything at 128 anyway so it's not much of an issue. If a visitor comes over with an address that I have already used, the screen will tell me what that address is configured to (ie how many speed steps, P vs S etc), so if it's different it would take me about three button pushes to change it. You're right, though, each system has it's own strengths and weaknesses, which is exactly why there is no 'best system' for everyone. Gotta love DCC though...I just hooked up my first switch decoder on the weekend--took about two minutes and now I'm hooked! 

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I would agree if you had a mix of 14 speed step, and others, it could be just another thing you would have to remember... Once you are controlling a loco, switching to another loco (up to 9 others in the"recall" memory), switching back will "remember" the 14 speed step setting. 

So, it's not "permanently" stored in some library of locomotives, but it's not really a pain. If I had a lot of older decoders, I would definitely have gone for a Massoth, since it's the most "LGB friendly" of them all I believe, down to the old style "serial" function control. 

Which switch machine decoder did you use? 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Which switch machine decoder did you use? 

I'm using the LGB single channel decoder since I already had the LGB switch machines that came with my switches. The decoder just plugs right in to the end of the LGB switch machine. So you just wire it directly to the track (luckily I had a rail clamp connection right adjacent to it) and away you go. Nice simple system--I like it. 

Here is a picture of it:

http://www.eurorailhobbies.com/erh_...=LGB-55024

Keith


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pretty cool... The ones from Train-Li are convenient too, if you don't have a switch motor to begin with. 

All my turnouts are DCC, but air powered, with air solenoids powered by a Digitrax DS-64. 

Really nice to throw them by remote control when you are all the way at the other end of the layout! 

Regards, Greg


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

Really nice to throw them by remote control when you are all the way at the other end of the layout! 

Exactly! We are just adding a big expansion to our layout, and on the weekend my boys and I were out trying out the new track. We quickly realized that this one particular switch would be a great candidate for automation, since we could remotely flip it and send my youngest sons train onto the old layout away from our trains. He built this Lego push train that we call the Phantom Menace, since he sends it whipping around the track and it silently sneaks up on your train and runs into it! Now when we see it coming down from the new track we can divert it remotely and avoid disaster! 

Keith


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Greg, yes. This is because the low four bits were for speed only and the headlight bit was packed in the speed packet. When 28 step decoders came out, the bit was hijacked because headlights had been reconfigured to work from function packets instead.

Go to the NMRA website and read RP-921. It's obtuse but the info is in there.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

there is a bit in CV29 to tell a decoder to operate in 14 or 28 step mode. Your 28 step decoder probably had been instructed to emulate a 14 step decoder.

- gws


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

The Digitrax system does remember particular ADDRESSES as having particular characteristics. However, the method for setting this up is not as easy as the NCE system with a big button on the throttle. With Digitrax, while setting the address, you need to press the "Edit" button, roll a knob through 7 options and THEN select the loco. However, it gets remembered for the next time unless the command station memory gets wiped.


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

Question. I'm a battery guy so don't yell at me. I don't see any mention of CVP and I'm curious why. No axe to grind I like their stuff for batter R/C and am wondering about their DCC stuff. 
Opinions.....


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not going to yell at you...

but why did you decide to comment on a thread that has been inactive for 5 months?

The first post of the thread is:

I ordered the *NCE *ProCab R system with the 10A booster and it should arrive shortly.

I was wondering which power supply I should use with it. I have 2 MRC power packs, one is the G and the other is a smaller one but goes to 22V. Both put out rectified AC. I also have a Mean Well (I think that's what it is) 24V 10A switching power supply. 


I only have the LGB trolley with a DCC decoder in it so I don't need lots of current yet.

Are there any distinct of one over the other? The bigger G one I use with MTH trains on DCS so I probably won't use that one for now. 

Tom 
So, since the thread is about a guy asking what power supply to use for his NCE system... the is really no reason to talk about CVP.... I know the thread drifted a bit...


If you want to ask about battery (this thread is on track power) and CVP products (this thread is on NCE), then by all means start a new thread asking people their opinion on CVP products...


(instead of reviving an old thread with a topic name that does not help you)...


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## lvmosher (Jan 2, 2008)

That's what I get for reading all 5 pages and forgetting the original ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

yep... all in good fun !

(you will get more and better answers in your new thread!) 


Greg


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