# Can LGB decoders be moved to different engines?



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a couple of the little engines that came in the MTA starter set and want to yank the decoders and put them in bigger engines. Is this possible and will the original engines still run on anolag afterwards?
A HOW-to would be grand!


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

John: 

Most little engines use a small decoder comparable to what other manufacturers call HO decoders. They are OK for the little one but not for the big ones. And even if they were you will have to do of direct soldering and wiring. After you remove the decoders you would have to direct wiring including some diodes and voltage regulators for the bulbs to continue to run the little engines. After all not worth the headache in my honest opinion.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Why not just get robust decoders for the larger engines. 

Non sound versions from Axel (Train-Li) can be purchased for $60 and have 3 amps and 8 functions and work at 24 volts (Decoder input voltage).


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

how about the one that comes in an MTS Mogul? Changing to battery power and wondering if it's decoder can be changed out relatively easy?


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

The MTS mogul has a combination sound and decoder board. 

So you will have a decoder with sound to remove, a special axle that activates that sound (LGB used hall effect circuits on a board in the motor block). 

So if you want a quiet battery operated mogul, go ahead and do it. 

Using the MTS/sound decoder in another engine will be difficult, but not impossible. 

Also, the MTS board gives the flickering firebox circuit!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The LGB locos that I have that came with decoders (mostly Moguls, Mikados and F7s) use the regular LGB 55021 decoders. LGB locos that are decoder equipped can usually have the decoder removed (the switches MUST be moved to the non-decoder position) and the loco will continue to run just fine with sound under analog track power.

To some extent this is model specific (even within a model series) because LGB, like other manufacturers, often made changes to their production lines.

In one case I had a Mikado arrive with a defective decoder. I simply removed the decoder, changed the switches and ran the loco on track power until a replacement decoder arrived from LGB of America at which time I installed the new decoder, reversed the switches again and was then able to run under either MTS or track power.

In most cases removing a decoder may be more trouble than it is worth such as taking a Mogul apart when you have never done it before. It is EASY to break something getting to a decoder and with the LGB bankruptcy the broken part may not be available.

There is the added fact that while it is OK to sell a loco with a decoder that did not come with the loco, selling a loco that was factory equipped with a decoder and has had the decoder removed would restrict potential buyers and anger a buyer if he was not aware the decoder had been removed.

Removing or installing a decoder without changing the switches can damage the electronics.

I have uploaded the instructions for the LGB 55021 decoder here:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...r%20II.pdf

You will find that the wires to connect the decoder to another loco have been removed from the decoder in your loco which will make putting that decoder into a different loco without a decoder interface difficult to do unless you use the LGB 55026 Decoder Interface Cable.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../55026.pdf

A substitute for the 55026 is available from Massoth.

What you want to do can be done. The question is whether it is worth it. Some people (like me) are always looking for LGB 55021 decoders so sometimes it is better to either leave the decoder alone or sell it and buy a new decoder designed for installation in a loco without a decoder interface.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Here are the parts diagrams for just one of the various LGB Moguls:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...6192-1.PDF

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 01 Sep 2009 04:47 AM 
The MTS mogul has a combination sound and decoder board. 

So you will have a decoder with sound to remove, a special axle that activates that sound (LGB used hall effect circuits on a board in the motor block). 

So if you want a quiet battery operated mogul, go ahead and do it. 

Using the MTS/sound decoder in another engine will be difficult, but not impossible. 

Also, the MTS board gives the flickering firebox circuit! 



Hi Dan,

I have been wrong before and will probably be wrong in the future but I am not aware of LGB ever having a "decoder with sound" (Massoth does) and I do not think removing the decoder will have any effect on the flickering firebox.

The chuff circuit activates the hall effect sensor but that circuit works without a decoder under analog track power.

On the other hand the LGB 55021 decoder is different from other decoders in several ways such as it can be seen that the LGB decoder only shows functions for Motor; F1; Front Light and Rear Light. I am not a MTS expert but I believe all other functions are controlled by the LGB circuit boards rather than individual function outputs of the decoder (such as F2, F3, F4 etc.).

Additionally I suspect the LGB 55021 (without the LGB circuit board electronics) would not prove satisfactory in powering a smoke unit.

I believe that removing a 55021 decoder from a LGB locomotive (including repositioning the switches) would result in a perfectly working analog track powered locomotive with chuff, bell and whistle sounds.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

I should add that I have never converted a LGB Mogul to battery power and my comments are only intended in reference to the effect of removing a LGB decoder and running the loco under track power.

I do think there are a lot of other decoders that would probably prove a more satisfactory solution to converting a non-LGB loco to DCC but I don't know enough about decoders to compare the features of one brand or model with others.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Here's the deal. I am converting all my LGB to battery power over the MTS. I was a huge fan of LGB's MTS stuff until... while running under the Christmas tree last year, the Mikado derailed and "click" goes the central station... IT NO WORKY NOW and there has been no warranty part available all year! I am building a layout outdoor, hence the conversion to R/C. My church has a layout that is MTS and I just give them a Genisis Amtrak set to run on it but it has no decoder. I was wondering if the decoder in my 23191 Mogul can be pulled for the Genisis loco? I also added sound to the Mogul and I hope to convert it to battery without the decoder and the sound still work? I assume the magnetic trips on the bottom won't afterwards though?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 01 Sep 2009 08:01 AM 
Here's the deal. I am converting all my LGB to battery power over the MTS. I was a huge fan of LGB's MTS stuff until... while running under the Christmas tree last year, the Mikado derailed and "click" goes the central station... IT NO WORKY NOW and there has been no warranty part available all year! I am building a layout outdoor, hence the conversion to R/C. My church has a layout that is MTS and I just give them a Genisis Amtrak set to run on it but it has no decoder. I was wondering if the decoder in my 23191 Mogul can be pulled for the Genisis loco? I also added sound to the Mogul and I hope to convert it to battery without the decoder and the sound still work? I assume the magnetic trips on the bottom won't afterwards though? 

Regarding your LGB 23191 Mogul (Undecorated), mine came without a decoder and I put a LGB 55021 decoder into it so your 23191 most likely has a 55021 decoder in it.

if you look on the bottom of the Genesis loco you will probably see a black circle with white dots indicating that it is decoder ready (I don't own a Genesis so I don't know for sure). Assuming the Genesis is decoder ready all you have to do is remove the decoder from your Mogul, plug it into the Genesis, reset the switches in both locos and you are ready to go.

I am assuming that you checked with Silvergate http://www.silvergatemanufacturing.com/ , Massoth http://www.massoth.com/index.usa.html and Train-Li-USA http://www.train-li-usa.com/ and found they did not have replacement boards for your Central Station (you did not mention which Central Station). I am a bit surprised if none of them had a replacement Central Station board. I would not expect any warranty Central Station boards to be available since Massoth did not make your Mogul but non-warranty boards should be available. On the other hand I have bought Central Station 1's on eBay for as little as $50 so it is up to you which way you want to go.

Without the decoder your 23191 should work just as mine did before I put the decoder into it. 

Regarding the sound system and battery operation I'll leave that to those more qualified as I have never made the conversion.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

55005 CENRTAL STATION 
I guess I will start shopping around but am not sure how to take the thing apart or I could have taken to local Electronic guru. Do those little red buttons push in?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 01 Sep 2009 03:04 PM 
55005 CENRTAL STATION 
I guess I will start shopping around but am not sure how to take the thing apart or I could have taken to local Electronic guru. Do those little red buttons push in? 

This may help:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...ctions.pdf

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...0Mogul.pdf

I would recommend against taking the Mogul apart unless you are really determined to do so. Disassembling and reassembling LGB locos can prove really difficult especially the first time if you are doing it without assistance from someone who is competent in doing it. I own multiple LGB Moguls but I try very hard to avoid taking any of them apart. Remember - the Mogul is out of production and replacements for broken parts may prove difficult if not impossible to find.

Stan Cedarleaf told me that he has converted some LGB Moguls by simply removing the connecting bars on the bottom of the drive block and powering the loco via the tender. You may want to talk to Stan about your battery conversion. 

Alternatively you could probably ship it to Silvergate and Barry could probably do your conversion for you.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 01 Sep 2009 03:04 PM 
55005 CENRTAL STATION 
I guess I will start shopping around but am not sure how to take the thing apart or I could have taken to local Electronic guru. Do those little red buttons push in? 

I have never been able to remove the red pins without drilling them out. Barry Bedore at Silvergate can probably repair or replace the circuit board in your Central Station and return it looking like it did before. Alternatively he may be able to sell a replacement board but sealing the pin holes can be difficult.

When LGB was still in business repairs or replacement required sending it in for liability reasons. Now it may (or may not) be possible to just buy the board.

Someone sharp with electronics might be able to fix your Central Station but I've never tried that route.

Jerry


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

John, 
Regarding the Genesis Engine, it has the newer NMRA compatable interface not the older 55021 direct interface. If you are looking to get a cheap decoder for the genesis go with the QSI, you will will have sound and DCC control. Installation will be easier than the 55021 also. All Electronics sells an adapter cable for about $1.50 that connects the QSI to the plug in the Genesis. Massoth and Train Li have one also for a bit more. Check out this thread: 

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/35/aft/111263/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx#112967 

If you just want to reutilize the 55021, I think Massoth or Train Li might have an adapter that goes from the new NMRA connector in the Genesis to the 55021. But you will not have sound unless you have a spare sound card also. 

Steve


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

and it will work with the LGB MTS system?


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

Do you have MTS II or MTS III? Limitations, yes. But you will have speed control and basic sound. MTS III should work with no limitations except 28 speed steps. MTS II you will need to have the QSI decoder programed for 14 speed steps and an ID of 1 to 28? as MTS does not recognize IDs any higher, not sure if MTS III has this limitation. The QSI does not have a reed switch for automated bell and whistle with a magnet. With MTS II being serial control you will have issues with the F keys. I think you need to push the F1 key x number of times to activate an x function. Push F1 twice to activate function F2, F1 five times for function F5 etc. Hopefully someone will chime in to verify or correct. 
Not sure as I upgraded from MTS II to the Massoth system before I had much time playing with the QSI equiped engine other than running with sound. 
I went with Massoth because most of my engines are MTS, I wanted parallele control for other decoders, and backward MTS compatability with out changing decoders. I liked QSI because it was much cheaper than an LGB decoder and sound unit, not to mention availability, and both still work with DC. 
Steve


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

I think I want to chime in. 

Somehow LGB seemed to have obfuscated the nature of MTS, at least many poeple seem to believe it is something special. MTS is a DCC control system. Not to want to stir up the debate but in my classification MTS belongs into the entry level category of DCC systems. 

Now in terms of QSI DCC/Sound combo the equivivalent deal is the TrueSound DCC by Zimo whose starting price is equal to QSI but with a higher set of features. And for $20 more you can get an even more sophisticated version (e.g. includes true low voltage output - not pulsed). All decoders come with the support of 20 functions (and up to 14 function outputs - which allows you to control 14 different electrical events). 

I thought you might wanted to know.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Axel Tillmann on 02 Sep 2009 08:31 AM 
I think I want to chime in. 

Somehow LGB seemed to have obfuscated the nature of MTS, at least many poeple seem to believe it is something special. MTS is a DCC control system. Not to want to stir up the debate but in my classification MTS belongs into the entry level category of DCC systems. 


Hi Axel,

I had hoped to say Hello at the HAGRS but your booth stayed busy.

I agree that MTS is an entry level DCC system but I think you will agree that it is also a somewhat proprietary system because of the way LGB handled the serial/parallel pulses via the F1 function. Of course this mostly applies to LGB locos with a decoder interface. Once LGB switched to the DCC interface that opened the field to most DCC systems most of which are far more capable than MTS hardware and software.

The one potential problem I can see is that if a non-LGB decoder is used on a MTS system I suspect it will be a challenge to program that decoder with LGB MTS hardware and software.

I am not making any suggestions - just mentioning potential issues since the Genesis is apparently being run on a MTS System. The LGB Programming Module does not even recognize Massoth decoders. It may be that the church has equipment that will program non-LGB decoders.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Axel Tillmann (Jan 10, 2008)

Jerry - too bad not have seen you at HAGRS.

Even you worst case - Pulse chain modulation - which I agree was a simplified DCC (I think created by Lenz which did the first MTS implementation - before LGB went to Massoth) - Zzimo still supports Pulse Chain if need to be.

Yes many higher register CVs (e.g. the sound modifications) are not easily addressable - however, I think the last version of the software can program it. But that would be identical for any 3rd party decoder, but that wouldn't then make no difference to running LGB decoders with LGB sound = no influence on the sound.

We are more than willing to properly adjust a decoder beofre it goes out of here.


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## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

John-

The MTS Starter Set locomotives were built two different ways:
-Early versions had an MTS Decoder Interface with a 55020/55021 decoder.
-Later versions were supplied with an Onboard Decoder.

If you have an early version, you can simply flip the DIP switches and remove the decoder. The 2090 and 20761 will operate in analog mode. Each 55021 decoder can be installed into another single motor block LGB loco. For dual motor LGB locos, you will require two 55021 decoders. (For your 2x490 Genesis with an LGB DCC Interface, I recommend the LGB 55027 Type II decoder, as it offers the most simplified installation. The LGB 55027 comes equipped with the correct DCC Interface connector. Installation takes five minutes.)

If your MTS Starter Set locos have Onboard Decoders, removing the decoders will be extremely messy, as there is no base circuitry left to control lights, smoke, motor delay, etc. 

The same is true with the LGB 23191 mogul. Early digital versions had an MTS Decoder Interface w/ LGB 55021 decoder and later versions were built with an Onboard Decoder. Removing the onboard decoder is a messy exercise.

Best regards,
Bob


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

thank you! How can I tell the difference between early and late model decoders etc.?


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## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi John-

You're best option is to open the loco shell and look at the circuit board.

LGB Single Motor (Small) Onboard Decoder (sorry - it's a blurry picture)









LGB Dual Motor (Large) Onboard Decoder










MTS Decoder Interface (Direct Decoder Interface from LGB 20705 steam loco shown)










You can also check the bottom of the motorblock for a sticker.

MTS Decoder Interface









MTS Direct Decoder Interface









MTS Onboard Decoder (silver sticker with black lettering)









MTS DCC interface










Just a warning, some locos with the Onboard Decoder sticker actually have an LGB Decoder Interface with an LGB 55021 decoder. This is rare, but it does happen. LGB tended to consume all available parts prior to moving to Onboard Decoders. For example, if the factory was building 20761 steam locos, they would use all of the Decoder Interface boards and lighting harnesses from inventory prior to switching to the newer Onboard Decoder parts. (The lighting harnesses also changed when LGB moved to Onboard Decoders. The Onboard Decoders use a micro connector.)

Best regards,
Bob

PS - Here are the installation instructions for an LGB 2x490 Genesis fitted with an LGB 55027 decoder and 6500x series sound module.
Genesis Decoder and Sound Installation


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Bob, I am picking up the MTS starter engines tonight from the church and will open them up to investigate soon. Thanks for your help! 
Will one 55021 work on the Genesis and how do I install that?


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

John, 
I don't think the 55021 will power the Genisis as it has two motors. The 55021 might not handle the current. 
Steve


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

I opened up the starter engines and they both have the newer on board decoder so I buttoned them back up. 
Concerning the 55021 in a Genesis... My local LGB guru dealer says it will work" 
Will one work and do I need the LGB 55026 Decoder Interface Cable also?


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

You will need the LGB DCC interface cable, not the 55026 decoder cable. Massoth and Train-Li sell them. All electronics sells one that works also. The part number is CON-2410 10 -pin connector w/ header 

You will need female crimp on pins like the ones already on the 55021 decoder. 

Here are the pin outs on the DCC connector to the 55021 using either the LGB or all electronics cable. 

DCC inf on Genesis LGB DCC Cable All Elec Cable 55021 pin 
Decoder + Red Black U+ Dec + 
Decoder - Black Black GND Dec - 
LV- Orange White LV- L1 
M+ Yellow Gray M+ M1 
G+ White Brown T+ GL2 
G- Brown Blue T- GL1 
M- Green Green M- M2 
LH- Orange Yellow RL L2 
F1- Blue Orange F1 F1 
F2- Blue Red F2 Not Used 

The decoder + lead will need to be split to three leads for the three U+ pins on the 55021. 

You should verify this as I info from a 55021 decoder and the pin outs from a search on Google below. 
Page 31 (shows page 10 of 22 in AR) in of this document for the LGB interface cable and pin outs on the LGB DCC interface. 
http://www.shourtline.swl4.com/imag...co & Function Decoder Manual 8150001_v120.pdf 

Still don't think the 55021 will handle the current. 
Hope this helps. 
Steve


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## rwbrashear (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi John-
 
Please see my original comments...

If you have an early version, you can simply flip the DIP switches and remove the decoder.  The 2090 and 20761 will operate in analog mode.  Each 55021 decoder can be installed into another single motor block LGB loco.  For dual motor LGB locos, you will require two 55021 decoders.  (For your 2x490 Genesis with an LGB DCC Interface, I recommend the LGB 55027 Type II decoder, as it offers the most simplified installation.  The LGB 55027 comes equipped with the correct DCC Interface connector.  Installation takes five minutes.) 
 
The 55021 cannot handle the current load of a dual motor loco.  
 
For the easiest installation, find an LGB 55027 or Massoth eMOTION XL decoder.  Both decoders can handle a dual motor LGB loco and both come equipped with the required DCC Interface cable.
 
Best regards,
Bob


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## SLemcke (Jun 3, 2008)

I guess the spaces don't stay in place. Lets try again.


DCC inf on Genesis: LGB DCC Cable: All Elec Cable: 55021 pin:

Decoder + Red Black U+ Dec + 
Decoder - Black Black GND Dec - 
LV- Orange White LV- L1 
M+ Yellow Gray M+ M1 
G+ White Brown T+ GL2 
G- Brown Blue T- GL1 
M- Green Green M- M2 
LH- Orange Yellow RL L2 
F1- Blue Orange F1 F1 
F2- Blue Red F2 Not Used


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