# Passenger train consist question



## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

What is the prototypical arrangement of the cars in a passenger train consist (streamliner or heavyweight)? Specifically, if known, for the following:

NYC "20th Century Limited"
PRR "Broadway Limited"
B&O "Capitol Limited"
UP "City of Los Angeles"
SP "Daylight Limited"
SF "Super Chief"
WP "California Zephyr"
EL "The Phoebe Snow"
ACL "The Champion"
KCS "Southern Belle"

I assume RPO first and observation last but what about the order and number/type of the cars in between?

Thanks in advance!


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

There are two books that will provide more information than you could imagine on this topic. They are "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains", both published by Kalmbach. If you check the used book sellers on line or at various RR shows, you should find them. Both have a wealth of information and lots of pictures as well.

Good Luck,

Jim Francis


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## JackM (Jul 29, 2008)

I was on the California Zephyr just a few months ago. As I recall, following the two engines it was baggage, two sleepers, diner, cafe/observation car, and three coaches.

The last time I was on the 20th Century was a whole lot further back so I don't recall.









JackM


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## Polaris1 (Jan 22, 2010)

CZ Zephyr..... Early CZ.... 12 cars 
Baggage--4 dome cars(short nose forward)--diner--5 sleeper cars--dome/observation car 

Pre-Amtrak CZ....... 12 cars 
Baggage--3 coaches--4 dome cars(short nose forward)--diner-- 2 sleeper cars--dome/observation car 

Power CB&Q..... 2 E-8 diesels 

Rio Grande F9A-F9B-F9B-F9A or F7s or F3s........ 

Power WP FP7A-F7B-F7B


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

My thought is that as you stated, the RPO is first, that would be followed by baggage and a combine (usually used for crew quarters). Any REA cars would preceded the RPO. After that it is any ones guess, depending upon the specific train. That depended upon the railroad and the cars on the train. On the B&O the Columbian went from Washington to Chicago with an all coach consist behind the head end cars, it included a vista dome, not on the Capitol limited. The Capitol Limited leaving Washington 15 minutes earlier was a Pullman train, presumably with head end cars.

From what I have read is that the RPO had to be secured from the rest of the consist. 


Chuck


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## jfrank (Jan 2, 2008)

The 20th Century, Broadway Ltd and Super Chief were all pullman trains. Headend cars were always first although on these trains that would be basically an RPO and Baggage. The rest of the train is sleeping cars. Diner and lounge were in the middle and observation was on the end. The other trains would be arranged similar to this, RPO(usually first because it is locked for security reasons) baggage and mail storage cars, coaches, diner, lounge, sleeping cars and if it had one an observation sleeper. The Phoebe Snow was a coach train so it would have a diner in the middle of the coaches. The Daylight was also a coach train. It had a three unit diner in the middle and toward the end a lounge, a parlor car for first classs passengers and a parlor obsv for them also. That's the basics. As stated above there are numerous books about the golden age of passenger trains, but most are out of print. You can find them at train flea markets and on ebay.


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

This is an interesting subject, and one that I too have often had questions about. In this country we usually have all of the baggage and other freight type cars at the head of the train. While I have noticed in Europe, they seem to be placed at the rear.


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## up9018 (Jan 4, 2008)

Here is a very helpful link for quite a few of the consists you are looking for. http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Well I will throw my 2 cents worth in here

Cal Zephyr: as the above poster said, but one of the sleepers would be a through sleeper from New York City. The sleeper from New York City would alternate between the PRR and the NYC. There could be as many as 16 to 18 cars depending on the time of year and the traffic demands. the first one or two cars would have been baggage cars then there were five different vista domes on the Zephyr, the first one was the Women's and childeren's dome, this one had extra doors on the hall way so that there was more privacy for women that had young children with them, the second one had a separate compartment for the conductors office, the third one was a plain dome coach, the fourth dome was a Dormitory-Buffet-Lounge Car, the next two cars would have been sleepers, usually 10-6 style sleepers, then a 48 seat diner, next would have been one or two 16 section sleepers, then the cars from New York City, and finally would have been the 1 Drawing Room, 3 Double Bedrooms Vista Dome Buffet Lounge Observation. If you want to see the actual car numbers see ( http://www.broadway-limited.com/cal zephyr consisting online.pdf ), one other thing to remember is that while the CB&Q, D&RGW and the WP all owned one or more complete sets of cars to make up one train set, a train would have had cars from all three or four if you include the sleeper that the PRR owned so on any given day you would have seen cars from the CB&Q, the D&RGW. the WP and PRR.


SP Morning or Coast Daylight: Combine Baggage / Chair, Single Chair, Articulated Chair, Articulated Chair, Articulated Coffee shop - Kitchen - Diner, Articulated Chair, Lounge, Parlor Car, Parlor Observation, giving a total of 14 cars, at peak traffic times they would add up to 3 more Articulated Chair cars giving a total of 20 cars. After this point they would start to run a second section. Remember this was a short haul train with a run of 400 or so miles that was done in 8 hours, leave LA at 8:00am and arrive in San Fransisco around 4:00pm so it did not need any sleepers. The over night train was The Owl and it also would take about 8 hours to make it's run but was mostly sleepers. Leaving about 10:00pm and arriving at around 6:00am. With this train you could board any time between 8:00pm and 10:00pm and disembark any time till about 8:00am. This way you could get a full night sleep. If you were taking the Owl what a lot of people would do is go down to the station have a nice diner at the restaurant then board the train and then maybe have a nite cap in the lounge, go to their compartment and go to sleep and wake up the next morning in the other city ready to get a full days work done and then return to their stating point the next night. The 20th Century Limited and the Broadway Limited both worked this way also. I would say that 80% of the over night trains business was from business people. The eastern trains had barbers, secretary and similar amenity's on board so when you got to your destination you were all ready to get to work. 


If there were an RPO (Railway Post Office) on the train there were usually several baggage cars attached with the RPO one or more of these cars would have mail in them and be a "sealed car" usually one car either side of the RPO would be a "Working Car" meaning that the mail in these cars was going to be sorted in route, after the mail cars came the baggage and the railway express cars. The reason that the baggage and express cars came after the RPO and the mail cars was that Federal Law stated that "There could be no through traffic through a mail car." Meaning that if the crew needed to get into the baggage car they could not walk through the mail or RPO's. This is why on most of the D&RGW narrow gauge RPO's there are roof walks and hand rails so the crew could get back and forth between the locomotive and the rest of the train.


Most of your Western long haul passenger trains followed the Cal Zephyr model with the coach or chair cars in the front, the diner and lounge in the middle and the Pullmans and sleepers in the rear. The diner / lounge was the dividing line between the regular passenger and the first class passengers.


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

Sorry, but the streamlined Daylight left LA and SF at 8:15 AM and arrived at SF and LA at 6:00 PM. The Noon Daylight left at 12:00 and arrived at 8:45 PM. The overnight Coast Line train was the Lark, which left at 9:00 PM and arrived at 8:30 AM; it ran more slowly than the Daylight for a smoother ride and convenient departure and arrival times. The San Joaquin Daylight and Owl ran on the Valley Line between Oakland and LA; they took considerably longer because of the distance and mountain climbing between Bakersfield and LA. The Daylight, if memory serves, was restricted to 22 cars maximum because the airbrake rules required a different pressure and less-responsive braking for 23 or more.


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Typical Super Chief consist for the early 1950s:

ABBA (F3 or F7)
Baggage (3432-3452 series)

RPO (82-88 series)

10-6 Sleeper (Palm or Pine series)

10-6 Sleeper (Palm or Pine series) 

4-4-2 Sleeper (Regal series)
Pleasure Dome (500-505 series)
Diner (600-606 series)
Lounge/Dorm (1339-1344 series)
4-4-2 Sleeper (Regal series)
4-4-2 Sleeper (Regal series)
10-6 Sleeper (Palm or Pine series)
Observation Lounge (Vista series)


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## mmp70160 (Dec 6, 2011)

Another excellent book with sample consists is TWILIGHT OF THE CLASSIC TRAINS. It was originally published by Kalmbach and was recencetly reprinted by someone else. ere are a few things to bear in mind. There are charts which show how cars were added to and removed from trains in the couse of their journey. 

While consists could vary during the course of one trip, they also varied seasonally and over time. Several trains that that got new round-end or blunt-end observation cars following WWII lost these during the 1950's and 60's. 

As railroads discontinued trains during the 50's and 60's, mail and express cars ended up on some of the more exclusive trains; and as passenger service declined in general in the decade prior to the formation of Amtrak, many trains were gradually whittled down in size. If you want more spcific infomration of certain trains, there is a Passeneger Train Consist group on Yahoo, but make sure you specify the year you are looking for. 


Mike Palmieri - Fort Worth, Texas


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## chuck n (Jan 2, 2008)

As Mike says you really need to know the years you are interested in modelling.

The B&O Capitol Limited changed over time, Washington to Chicago. The consist between Jersey City and Washington was different.


According to the book by Stegmaier "Baltimore and Ohio Passenger Service, 1941-1971, volume 2, The Route of the Capitol Limited", the October 1, 1950 consist was as follows:



Coffee shop/baggage dorm (combine)
Sleeper
Sleeper
diner
Sleeper
Sleeper
Sleeper
Sleeper

diner
Sleeper
Sleeper
Sleeper
lounge/observation

By August 12, 1965 the consist was as follows:

RPO
Baggage-dormitory-buffet-lounge (combine) 

Coach
Coach
Coach 

Dome-coach
Coach
Coach*
Coach *

Slumber Room coach*

Sleeping car*
Slumber coach
Sleeping car
Sleeping car
Sleeping car
Sleeping car 

Dining room car
Kitchen-dormitory car
Lounge Sleeping car 

Sleeping car
Sleeping car
Dome sleeping car


*Set out at Willard, Ohio for Detroit. 


So sometime between 1950 and 1965 they combined the Columbian and the Capitol Limited.

Chuck


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## roushraven (Sep 15, 2010)

*Thanks for all of the responses guys. I'll keep an eye out for the books mentioned but in the meantime 
this really helps me complete my consists and I have learned quite a bit about passenger train operations. 

Arthur *


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## Andre Anderson (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Reg Stocking on 24 Jan 2012 11:41 AM 
Sorry, but the streamlined Daylight left LA and SF at 8:15 AM and arrived at SF and LA at 6:00 PM. The Noon Daylight left at 12:00 and arrived at 8:45 PM. The overnight Coast Line train was the Lark, which left at 9:00 PM and arrived at 8:30 AM; it ran more slowly than the Daylight for a smoother ride and convenient departure and arrival times. The San Joaquin Daylight and Owl ran on the Valley Line between Oakland and LA; they took considerably longer because of the distance and mountain climbing between Bakersfield and LA. The Daylight, if memory serves, was restricted to 22 cars maximum because the airbrake rules required a different pressure and less-responsive braking for 23 or more. 
Thanks for the corrections on the departure times, I was doing this off the top of my head at some early time in the morning and did not have my schedules. I don't know what I was thinking when I said the Owl when I knew that it ran the San Joaquin route and the Lark took the coast route.Which train did they use for the Overnite service, some where these ran as second sections of both the Lark and the Owl.


If what I remember is right there was a problem with the GS's being able to keep the schedule when they were pulling more than 18 cars


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## Reg Stocking (Sep 29, 2010)

How many cars a GS could handle at the Daylight's required speed is an interesting question. The GS-2 was a slightly updated GS-1 which was intended to haul an original streamlined 12-car set by itself. When expanding the consist with more coaches, 3-unit articulated diners, and full tavern cars, a helper between San Luis Obispo and Santa Margarita became necessary; usually it was a rather dirty 2-10-2. With this in mind the GS-3 through 5 were built with 80" drivers rather than 72" for freer steaming at high speed. A good engine crew could get the Daylights over the road with 22 cars on time, but it took some work. 

My favorite tale concerns how a good crew with a GS in top condition could perform. There are several curves which required slowing from 75mph to 35 or 40. At some distance before the curve the fireman would open his injector and cut back the oil burner. The engine would continue to pull, but at a lower power output, and the train would decelerate. Just before the curve the fireman would turn off the injector, open the burner, and maybe toss a scoop of sand into the firebox to scour the flues. This would cause an immediate increase in steam output so the train would accelerate into the curve. This kept the train stretched and running smoothly with no change of throttle opening or use of the airbrakes throughout the process. An old engineer told me how much fun this used to be. As a kid I rode the Daylight and Lark in steam, and they were truly superb because everyone connected with them wanted them to be.


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## Bob Pero (Jan 13, 2008)

The dining car in the middle of the train almost always seperated the coach class cars from the more expensive accomodations including the observation car.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

@import url(http://www.mylargescale.com/Provide...ad.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);@import url(/providers/htmleditorproviders/cehtmleditorprovider/dnngeneral.css); Posted By Bob Pero on 01 Feb 2012 04:34 PM 
The dining car in the middle of the train almost always seperated the coach class cars from the more expensive accomodations including the observation car.That seems to be the case even today. When I road Amtrak to Tampa last month, the coach cars and viewliners were on either end with the diner (adjoining the viewliners) and the lounge car (adjoining the coaches) separating the two.


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