# POWER what can I get for $400



## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I am in the process of nearly doubling the size of my layout and am in need of more power. I want to continue with track power but would like to be able to run more than one train remotely. I like the idea of a wireless transmitter so I can follow the train around and flip switches when needed. I have looked into the aristocraft train engineer (not the basic since that only runs one engine)and I like it, it seems simple and easy to use. Question is who makes the best system for minimum funds. The biggest bang for the buck. Whichever one I get I would like to be able to build on the system without having to junk it and start over because it is lacking something. I don't see myself ever powering switches, signals, lights or sounds in the near future so I don't need that ability plus that seems like it can get confusing quick. I am looking for something relatively basic to run more than one train at a time. I read some postings here and checked out Tonys' train exchange site. That sight has a lot of info but I would like to know what the experienced RR man is using and why. 
DCC DCS and all that = Don't know? 
I do know that each engine will need a decoder to be wired in but 27 mghz or higher and more money for each one ?? Where does it all start and where does it end?? 
A starter setup would be nice what do you guys use and what would you recomend for me and my budget of up to $400. I currently run 2 LGBs'from starter sets and a Bachmann big hauler (non annie) and will have near 300' of track when done. Do I need 10 amps? I like short little steam engines that will haul 1-6 cars around but I do have some grade issues of 2-2.5 % 
I am posting this same query to the beginers forum since that is what I am when it comes to this kind of RR stough. 
I hope my needs are clear enough. Thanks alot for your input. 
Todd


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Most bang for the buck would probably be Tony Walsham's stuff running from track power. Contact him if he does not pop up here. 

Regards, Greg


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

As Greg said Tony has good stuff but if you wanted to do it on the cheap your could buy 2 train engineers and a elite power supply and use one for track power and one for battery power then you could run 2 trains on one track together at a fair price.. by the way people here wont beleive i reccommended a aristo product to you but these are one of the few things thay make that work out of the box without a problem in my opionion... 
Nick...


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I use the Aristo 27mhz for track power and run my RDC with the 75mhz on board on the same track. Since the RDC is a fast running engine, it will work with my 'slow' running engines. 
I then did the same thing on my LGB rail truck with the HOTE in the tool box, it is a perfect fit. 
The on board unit has a memory feature that is very helpful when doing this.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks guys. I want to stay away from battery power and stick to the track with the easiest simpliest way to do it. 
Dan you were once recommended to me by Ron Sgroi as the electronics guru and in the past you have answered some of my questions when I went down this road before. 
I'm not sure what a RDC is fast versus slow or the HOTE 
In the short is the aristo craft system a good one? If I go that route let me make a list. I will need the handheld transmitter, a power supply 10amp ultima or elite or can i get away with a 5 amp? ,a trackside receiver and a 27mhz decoder wired into each engine. 
Say a friend came over with his engine that didn't have the 27mhz decoder installed would we be able to run just that one engine? 
Too many unknowns in this realm that is why I ask the experts.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Just to be clear, Tony's stuff works from track power just fine. Also, his support for his customers is tops, so I would recommend his stuff for this application over the Aristo stuff. 

I use DCC, so my RDC has a plug and play QSI in it, about a 5 minute install, but DCC is more money than you want to spend. Of course it is the most flexible and able to expand. 

But you put your budget first. (I would put my long term goals first, since I expect to be in the hobby another 30 years). 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Greg. 

Thanks for the plug. 

However, the RCS and EVO R/C items are designed to operate from battery power only. 
They can of course be made to operate from a constant track voltage with the addition of suitable bridge rectifiers and filtering, but not as they are supplied. 

RCS does not recommend using constant track voltage to power RCS/EVO equipment installed on board. 
The whole point of battery power is to eliminate any track power at all. 
RCS is firmly of the opinion that wiring a loco for both types of power unnecessarily complicates the wiring. 

The RCS philosophy is to keep it as simple as possible. 
That includes how it is installed and how it works. 
Unlike some other R/C suppliers, RCS does not constantly keep changing things trying to get R/C to work.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

If choosing Aristocraft, go with the Elite. It is 22.5 volts of regulated power. The Ultima while being a good supply, is not regulated and its voltage drops as the load increases. 

I need good regulated power as I run a pair of SD-45s with sound, lights, smoke and lit passenger cars which ends up being 5 amps. 

I use the 27mhz trackside for track power, and select linear mode. 
I also use the Aristocraft 75 mhz on board units, one in the Aristocraft RDC (Rail Diesel Coach), and the HOTE (HO scale Train Engineer) in my LGB rail truck. These are track powered and run at the same time as my other engines are on the track powered rails. 

Since Cape Cod Todd is close to me, we should get together and I can give him a demo of how this all works. 

I am now available most of the time as I volunteered to be a victim of downsizing. For the next year, every day is a paid holiday. This was a great opertunity!!!!!


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Dan I used to live a few towns over from you in Whitman. I would really like to see your layout in operation but finding the time to get up there may be a bit difficult this time of year but thank you for the invite anyways. The aristo system seems to be real easy and straight forward so I am definantly leaning that way and the elite seems the way to go with more power right up front in case I do expand into different areas and need the juice. 
I'm still a little confused.... with the 27mhz at track side can you run one train without the onboard decoder? You say that you have the 75mhz on board. I'm mixed up why the 27mhz is not the one in the engine?? 

I thnik a visit and a demo would be the best thing but like I said time is a bother. I'm only home on the weekends and after doing chores I usually get one day if the weather is decent to work on the RR. At the rate I'm going my expansion won't be done for months. I need a situation like yours last year I wasn't working and I had nothing but time but no money, this year money but no time who came up with this system?? 
Todd


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Since the 75 MHz onboard is no longer manufactured, I would not recommend it to anyone starting out. 

The confusion is that the 27 MHz Aristo is a "trackside" unit, for powering the rails and one locomotive, unmodified. It is basically a wireless speed control. 

But some people have pulled this unit out of it's case and put in a loco or trailing car, then run constant DC to the rails. Now you have an R/C system. Since the unit was not designed for this purpose, it is large, and will not fit in many locos. 

Funny about Tony's response, he told me before that there was nothing stopping his equipment from running on track power. He confirmed this again here, but does not recommend it, thus I retract my recommendation. 

For someone starting in track power, and wanting remote control, I recommend DCC, there are many systems, you can get an entry level system, many decoders, and many sound units, just a lot of options. 

But now this might not fit in the $400 budget. 

Think long term here. 

Regards, Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/29/2008 4:21 PM
SNIP 
The confusion is that the 27 MHz Aristo is a "trackside" unit, for powering the rails and one locomotive, unmodified. It is basically a wireless speed control. 
But some people have pulled this unit out of it's case and put in a loco or trailing car, then run constant DC to the rails. Now you have an R/C system. Since the unit was not designed for this purpose, it is large, and will not fit in many locos. 
Funny about Tony's response, he told me before that there was nothing stopping his equipment from running on track power. He confirmed this again here, but does not recommend it, thus I retract my recommendation. 
SNIP Regards, Greg




Greg. 
Nothing funny about my response. 
Sure you can use RCS on board with a constant track voltage as the power source. RCS uses simple diode protection to minimise voltage drop from the battery supply. You would need a bridge rectifier and suitable filtering in order to use them with a constant voltage on the track as a power source. Otherwise the RCS would work in one direction and not the other. 

Just like the RCS, the Crest 27 Mhz TE has diode polarity protection and would have to have a bridge rectifier inserted in the track pick ups in order to use DC on the rails as the power source.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

My RR is the Aristocraft trackside power feeding the rails. I found that I can run the 75mhz on-board in some fast running engines while slow analog engines without any receivers onboard are running. 
Most that see this find it hard to believe that it can be done as it is almost too simple.


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## craigcoffman (Jan 2, 2008)

The best way to do this is constant track power, like the Aristo Elite, then receivers in each loco, with Bridge rectifiers between the track pickups & the receivers. This is the way I used to do it before I went battery power. (got tired of cleaning wheels & tracking down loose track connections). With constant track power & sufficient amps, you can run as many locos as you can manager at one time. 

-- 
craig


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony: 

Funny because your response, "designed to operate from battery power only" 

and "RCS does not recommend using constant track voltage to power RCS/EVO equipment installed on board." 

That's what seemed funny (not funny ha ha, but funny strange). 

Regards, Greg 

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/28/2008 5:04 PM
Hi Greg. 
Thanks for the plug. 
However, the RCS and EVO R/C items are designed to operate from battery power only. 
They can of course be made to operate from a constant track voltage with the addition of suitable bridge rectifiers and filtering, but not as they are supplied. 
RCS does not recommend using constant track voltage to power RCS/EVO equipment installed on board. 
The whole point of battery power is to eliminate any track power at all. 
RCS is firmly of the opinion that wiring a loco for both types of power unnecessarily complicates the wiring. 
The RCS philosophy is to keep it as simple as possible. 
That includes how it is installed and how it works. 
Unlike some other R/C suppliers, RCS does not constantly keep changing things trying to get R/C to work.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 06/30/2008 2:17 PM
Tony: 
Funny because your response, "designed to operate from battery power only" 
and "RCS does not recommend using constant track voltage to power RCS/EVO equipment installed on board." 
That's what seemed funny (not funny ha ha, but funny strange). 
Regards, Greg 





Why are those comments funny strange? 
That is the way it is. 
RCS/EVO is *DESIGNED* for battery power only. 
I don't believe in using a constant voltage on the track as the power source for on board R/C. 
They can of course be made to run on constant track power with the addition of extra components.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2008)

uuuuuuuu some people around here are getting real sensative/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif:whistling 
Nick.. ya i know mind my own busness.......


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

If It were me I'd up the anti some and go for DCC and be set for life.  You can spend a lot of money on doing various systems so do it right the first time. Do your home work and then decide. Later RJD


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Tony, why do you no longer manufacture the R/C track power units (like the AristoCraft TE)? At one time you offered these in a couple amperage ratings. 

I have one of your old 10 amp track/RC units and while it certainly has more voltage loss than the T/E (a big internal capacitor helped this a little), the transmitter is more convenient and has better range than the TE. (I know that you eliminated some of the voltage loss in later on-board units.)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By toddalin on 07/01/2008 6:27 PM 
Tony, why do you no longer manufacture the R/C track power units (like the AristoCraft TE)? At one time you offered these in a couple amperage ratings. 
I have one of your old 10 amp track/RC units and while it certainly has more voltage loss than the T/E (a big internal capacitor helped this a little), the transmitter is more convenient and has better range than the TE. (I know that you eliminated some of the voltage loss in later on-board units.) 


Hi Todd. 
I still do make track control like the TE. 

At the RCS website hover the cursor over "Large Scale" then click on "RCS Track Control". 









and 










I don't sell many in the USA because being made here in Australia I cannot compete with low cost wage countries like China.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 07/01/2008 7:26 PM
Posted By toddalin on 07/01/2008 6:27 PM 
Tony, why do you no longer manufacture the R/C track power units (like the AristoCraft TE)? At one time you offered these in a couple amperage ratings. 
I have one of your old 10 amp track/RC units and while it certainly has more voltage loss than the T/E (a big internal capacitor helped this a little), the transmitter is more convenient and has better range than the TE. (I know that you eliminated some of the voltage loss in later on-board units.) 


Hi Todd. 
I still do make track control like the TE. 
At the RCS website hover the cursor over "Large Scale" then click on "RCS Track Control". 








and 








I don't sell many in the USA because being made here in Australia I cannot compete with low cost wage countries like China.


Wow, it got more sophisticated in the last 12 years. Mine is a simple grey case (same size/shape) with an input, an output, a circuit breaker, and a purple antenna wire.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, what is your objection to constant track power and remote control? I'm doing it with Aristo's 75 mhz and it works quite well.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Lownote. 
I didn't say constant track power would not work well. I know it can be made to. 
It is just that it is not my philosophy to do it that way. 
I design what I make to work only on battery power.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So, my recommendation was to go with Tony's stuff on track power because once Tony told me that his stuff worked fine on it. 

I made the mistake of recommending it in this thread. 

So, I guess my recommendation for the $400 budget is Aristo. Sounds like Tony's stuff is both more expensive and not recommended in this situation. 

I really hate to recommend the Aristo stuff to a beginner, since Aristo will soon have their 2.4 GHz stuff and wants to abandon the 27 MHz stuff. 

(I guess my real recommendation is to change the $400 budget to accomodate DCC !) 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07/04/2008 9:03 AM

I really hate to recommend the Aristo stuff to a beginner, since Aristo will soon have their 2.4 GHz stuff and wants to abandon the 27 MHz stuff.



While 2.4 GHZ sure sounds high tech and ought to work better, It doesn't exist yet does it? We always get so excited waiting for new products. Unfortunately they don't always turn out so good (e.g. A/C 75 MHz). I would wait for some user reviews before jumping on the bandwagon.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Note I did not recommend the new system. (For the same reasons as you point out). 

I just hesitate in recommending the old system since it will pretty much be abandoned. The 75 MHz unit is no longer produced, for example. 

Just getting to 900 MHz solves virtually all the interference problems people have. In fact, it's my opinion that 900 MHz is the sweet spot for R/C, since all the other stuff at 900 MHz has now gone to 2.4, like your wireless computer, bluetooth, your cordless phone, and don't forget your microwave! 

Regards, Greg


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I knew I would get some answers and opinions from this question. I like the sounds of what Dan wrote "it is almost to simple" That is just what I'm looking for something simple and easy to install and use. I'm a little concerned as to what Greg wrote about Aristo discontinuing some of the things I might be needing such as the 75mhz parts. The very last thing I want to do is lay down some cash only to find out in the very near future that the stough I bought is outdated and useless. 
What is the deal with DCC and how much extra would it cost over the train engineer system? What can it do for me? How easy is it to install and use and what would I need in order to run a couple of engines? 
Todd


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Just make sure if you have track powered DCC that there is an analog feature so one engine can be run if it does not have a decoder. 

LGB's MTS did this and I believe most DCC systems will also, just check and make sure. 

Also, dcc systems can run LGB mts equipped locos and if the locos have the parallel function, you can control all the feaures. Again, verify compatibility.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, most DCC manufacturers are abandoning the analog feature in the DCC control system, due to non-interest. 10 years ago this was a big deal, but nowadays, most people do not care, as evidenced by the abandoning by most manufacturers. This feature allows someone to run one non-DCC loco on your layout. The feature never worked great in general (yes, I know a certain number of people will say it's great), but you need to look a the larger experience. I recommend putting a simple switch or set of jumpers to change the layout over to DC when you want. I can do this to my layout in about 5 seconds and it only cost me $7 in parts to swap in my old DC controller. I cannot agree with "MAKE SURE" you have this feature. 

Also, the other side of the coin, since we have made this unfortunately more complex than Todd ever asked for (my apologies Todd) is decoders that have a DC mode, i.e. a DCC decoder in your loco. Most have this feature, but again, once you go DCC, you will rarely want to run the same loco on DC, so I do not classify this as a "must have" feature. Optional is a good term here. (I mention this other mode because often people just say "analog mode" and sometimes they refer to running a DC loco on a DCC layout, and sometimes they are referring to running a DCC loco on a DC layout, so these last 2 paragraphs illuminate both) 

The point about the mts functions also bears more explanation. Early LGB decoders were "Serial", a very goofy way to control functions from the DCC perspective. Most DCC hand controllers have 10 or more "function" buttons to control functions. You push a button and the sound happens. Well, LGB did something funny, and if you wanted function 4, instead of hitting the F4 key (parallel), you hit the F1 key FOUR times. 

Goofy. But, Dan implies that you cannot control all the features in such a system. "if the locos have the parallel function, you can control all the feaures." 
Which implies "if the locos have the serial function, you cannot control all the features". 

This is not true, you can punch the F1 button enough times to trigger the serial function on that old decoder in the loco. There are upgrades to the decoders to make them "normal" and also there are many many manufacturers of DCC decoders, so you have a lot of options here, it's not like being tied to one proprietary system, like Aristo, or Tony's or AirWire or Locolinc or .... 

Now probably the flame wars will start, but I'm trying to be helpful, if you are looking into the future, it's hard to beat all the options in this method of control. 

Regards, Greg


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow what a lot of great responses and mind numbing answers.... It certainly is getting more complex than I hoped it would but I would say that G scale is rather complex and getting more so everyday. Too many options and choices, much like picking out orange juice at the grocers. I just started deciphering the differing scales and now this??? My answer to the scale issue was I just run what I like and don't care how one car looks next to another. I am in no way a rivet counter in fact half my layout is buried in weeds at the moment tht I usually just clear a path through for the trains to fit. I like the wild look and am not an exacting modeller. In fact my approach is more whimsical, I had to snake the track around a few trees and I bought several big lawn ornament mushrooms to place around this spot and I will be calling it the land of BIG. 
The budget has already been broken many times with this ever increasing expensive hobby and I have reached my limit so I think streching to DCC is beyond my reach plus I don't think I will need the extras that it offers. Besides only one of my engines have a decent sound system and I don't mind putting magnets on the tracks to activate the whistle and bell in the appropriate spots. My wife says I'm infatuated with the trains but I still view it as a hobby that I don't take too seriously and a hobby/distraction that I just want to have fun with. 
So if I could return to my original question and maybe stress a few of the words. I'm looking for a SIMPLE system where I can run my cleaning pad over the rails a few times, hook up a couple of wires and get a train or 2 moving along for under $400 with a minimum of fancy wiring to the engines or track what type of system would you guys recomend and what exactly do I need to buy in order to make this happen? 
Whew that was alot of typing LOL 
Thank you 
Todd


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

Todd, 
The Aristo Track Side Train Engineer (27mhz) is a good reliable system which I doubt AC will abandon in the near future. It varies the track power by remote control so you can run one train remotely. The On Board TE (75Mhz) is the one they going to replace with a new system. If you can live with one train running on the track at a time, you can't go wrong with the track side TE. You will need a power supply to go with it so get an Aristo Elite. You will be under budget and have a good reliable, simple to use system. 
If you have to have two trains running at the same time on the same track, cost and complexity goes up.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I am now curious as to what Todd will choose after digesting all this information. 

Have you decided yet? 

Did this help any others decide that were just watching/reading?


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello You are right Dan what a lot of info. I am really leaning towards the aristo TE with an elite power pack #55465. It is the dual voltage that you guys recommend or is it he 5 amp 55466? In the latest garden RR mag I noticed that aristo is offering the 2.4GHZ #'s 57000- 57003 units now so I need to look into that. Ward H wrote that with the TE I can run one engine at a time remotely If I can do this without modifying my engines than that would serve me this summer, I could park one engine on an electrically isolated siding and get another going. Over the winter I could wire up each engine seperatly with the neccessary onboard gear. 
The quest continues. 
Todd


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## craigcoffman (Jan 2, 2008)

Todd. I sent you an pm thru this board.. if you decide to go with the TE & the Aristo Elite, let me know, I have an Elite I don't use anymore & would be willing to sell.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The Aristo 2.4 system will not be available until next year. Do not be fooled by people publishing part numbers, you can find the part number for an Aristo SD-9 in the Garden Railways magazine, and it has not and will not be built. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Always go with the larger supply for te future. 
Read the 5 amp specs carefully as I do not believe it goes to the 22.5 volts or 24 volts of the 13 and 15 amp elites. 

Newer engines with electronics need this higher voltage.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I hear you Dan about going for more power for the future. 
As for the 2.4 it is a shame that they have it advertised with a part # and a price yet don't have it available? Talk about dangling a carrot. I finally connected the 2 ends of the track yesterday and my old tech 3 with just over an amp is no where up to the task of supplying power so I need to get something soon.


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## cape cod Todd (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm back for a long weekend and had a train going around this morning but I do need more power. I was hoping to order what I need this weekend but I called 2 stores hat advertise in garden RR magazine and didn't get very far with either. The experts were on vacation at one store. At another store the 2.4 was out of stock. Was it ever in stock? the operator didn't know but considering it was a new item she thought it might be sold out. Their electrical "expert" told me that with the TE I can only run one train at a time even if I did put decoders into each engine. He suggested going to DCC to get that ability. From what I have read and what I have heard about the TE I can run more than one engine if they each have a decoder to receive the different signals from the control, one engine just remembers its last command and keeps on going. Is this true? 
Who's idea was it to make this whole thing so confusing???? /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crazy.gif 
I have been getting some good advice here and I hope you guys can keep it coming until I can make a good decision that I won't regret. 
Thanks.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

As yet the proposed Crest 2.4 Gigaherz on board R/C has not been released.


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## craigcoffman (Jan 2, 2008)

This guy told you wrong. He's thinking of a receiver mounted trackside to control the power to the track. With the Elite, or other constant voltage power supply wired directly to the track, you can control each loco that has a receiver seperately. I have had up to 4 running at once on my layout, all powered off the Elite. One being an Aristo F-1 AB set pulling a string of lighted heavyweights, so the power consumption was pretty great from that train right there. 

The TE trasmitter can control up to 100 locos, 10 on each of 10 frequencies. In practice, NOT changing frequencies is what I do, cause simply changing between locos (not complicated) while keeping an eye on multiple running trains & throwing switches is taxing enough. 

Back to power, & other comments above, the Elite puts out 22.5V from the factory, but can be adjusted up with an internal set-screw. I upped mine to 24.5V, cause after losing a volt & half to on-board bridge rectifiers, then another volt thru the TE receievers itself, I found things ran much better with the higher voltage. 

Again, I'm ready to part with my Elite since I've moved to battery, so if interested, let me know. 

-- 
craig


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