# Ideas for access to train storage below layout?



## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The above layout is 40' wide and 16' deep. The top is green outdoor carpeting over outdoor plywood so while not totally water tight it does give a degree of protection to anything below it. There is a storage area to the bottom left that is 16' wide and 8' deep and is about 1 foot below the upper deck. The storage area has seven 16' sidings. 

The upper deck is 48" or less above the ground so working space is limited.

The storage area is NOT movable. it is from my former trailer layout and is a permanent part of the current layout.

There is a walkway around the layout for access to trains on the layout.

Currently I remove the freight cars one by one from the left of the storage area.

I have been thinking off and on about various ways to drive (pull) freight cars from the lower storage area to the upper layout but between the curves and grade I have not come up with a good solution (I may end up doing nothing).

In the past I have not been very successful in grading a curve but if I could this would probably work a lot better (I do have a Train-Li track bender). Any curves should be R3 (8' diameter) and lower turnouts would be R1 (4' diameter).

The obvious solution would be to use the bottom siding and curve it up, left, and down with right hand turnouts but that would require a continuously graded curve. I don't know how I would make such a continuously graded curve or support it if I did.

The current sidings would need to be extended to accommodate the turnouts and that area would need to remain level which would steepen the grade. Alternatively the curved track could be extended to the right of the layout but that too would need to be graded and supported plus it would be a pain to walk around all the time.

Perhaps someone might have a fresh idea or have worked out something similar.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Jerry, 
It looks like any ladder to tie the storage tracks together would be too long. I'd suggest a sliding transfer table where you could roll your cars onto a length of track and the slide it towards you at the side of the layout. An elevator, chain drive, could lift the track board up to layout level and a connection to a spur. 
I didn't see anyway to come up through the layout, so a side access seemed like the best solution, not necessarily the easiest. 

Respectfully, 
John


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

IF you are having issues going up the grade on a curve (likely) then avoid it. Come out of your "yard" to the right and tie them together before you get to the curve. Come round the curve and THEN start your up slope tieing back into your main deck on the far side of the layout. It still looks like a close to 3% grade if I calculate that right? Approximately 30 feet of stright on the far side of the layout right? 12" rise in 360" (30 feet)? Not huge but a task for some trains. It's a thought.

Chas


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 18 Sep 2009 09:01 AM 
Hi Jerry, 
It looks like any ladder to tie the storage tracks together would be too long. I'd suggest a sliding transfer table where you could roll your cars onto a length of track and the slide it towards you at the side of the layout. An elevator, chain drive, could lift the track board up to layout level and a connection to a spur. 
I didn't see anyway to come up through the layout, so a side access seemed like the best solution, not necessarily the easiest. 

Respectfully, 
John 

Hi John,

The Arkansas Railway Museum has a transfer table which had first given me the idea of a transfer table (I would not know how to build one). Then I realized that it would have to be below the layout and about 24" above the ground with a maximum of less than 18" above it and the thought of having something derail approaching or on the transfer table would probably be a real nightmare to clear up. 

Still it is a good thought and I have not yet given upon the idea. 

I would love to see some photos of where someone might have built one.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By wchasr on 18 Sep 2009 09:09 AM 
IF you are having issues going up the grade on a curve (likely) then avoid it. Come out of your "yard" to the right and tie them together before you get to the curve. Come round the curve and THEN start your up slope tieing back into your main deck on the far side of the layout. It still looks like a close to 3% grade if I calculate that right? Approximately 30 feet of straight on the far side of the layout right? 12" rise in 360" (30 feet)? Not huge but a task for some trains. It's a thought.

Chas



Hi Chas,

Going up the grade is not anticipated to be a problem as I would only be pulling 6 - 8 cars at a time. I could use a FA-1 (A, AA, ABA, or ABBA) or even a LGB Rack Loco if needed. I regularly run trains up and down a 10% grade to get them to and from my main layout (because there are brick walls that force me to use a 10% grade).

The problem is that I have never been able to make a curve that maintains a continuous grade through the curve. I could achieve around 18 feet of graded track just with the curve but without the curve being graded the straight track would be too short to accomplish the grade.

Thank you for the suggestion,

Jerry


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry, 
I'd use a cabinet sliding drawer system and take the sides off the drawer. You could add sliding sections on the sides for a moving hole to let the train in/out when the drawer is aligned, nothing falls off and any derailments could be easy to do with the drawer pulled out. All hardware from one source. 

Not all cabinet sliders are the same or mounted at the same height, but I think The Empire Builder in you will easily figure that out! 

John


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry as for a transfer table it can be a huge engineering task. For starters start with the weight of the trains you will be storing as well as the approximate weight of the transfer table itself to determine the cabinet slide you want to use will handle to total weight. Will the slides be bottom mounted or side mounted and how many to acheive the weight rating? Keep in mind the more you use the tougher it is to get them all aligned and working smoothly together. (Voice of experience speaking) Add in that this is an outside layout with some exposure to weather and you've got a nightmare on your hands. It is not impossible and I know I did some preliminary sketches someplace for someone a while back but I've heard of no one that has adone a Large transfer table in our scale. Then to add in an elevator? No way, it is too much for me.

A few slides or suspensions as we called them back when I designed furniture. I believe I have a set of the 9308 or something similar in the garage?


http://www.accuride.com/Industrial/...oductID=94

http://www.accuride.com/Industrial/...oductID=59

Chas


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## dltrains (Jan 2, 2008)

Get an old desk with a typewriter tray and stripout the typewriter tray and hinge assembly. Remount to end of layout on a sliding track.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

To be honest a transfer table simply sounds too complex and with a lot of potential problems. It would have to be at least 8 feet long and able to accurately position itself between various sidings. 

A graded curve such as in a helix would be more practical but I have never had any success in curving track with a built in grade. There is also the problem of the hump at the top of a sharp grade along with a dip at the bottom of the grade which is a great place for unintentional uncoupling to happen providing an opportunity for a major disaster.

Jerry


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

How much room do you have on the left of the whole layout? Could you just run the trains out the left of the storage area onto, say, a 4 to 6-ft long board with track that is on a "table" with shortlegs that position it at the correct height for the storage (lower) area. then raise the board to the upper (layout) area onto a taller narrow "table" that aligns with one track of the upper layout. It could all be armstrong (manual) operation to position the long board to move the trains out and then lift that board to the upper area. Putting the trains away would just be the opposite. Of course the "lifting board" would need stops on the outer end and maybe railings (sides) to keep the cars from falling off if it gets inadvertantly tipped while lifting (or lowering) the train from one level of the table to the other.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Chas, 
I envisioned only one track on the transfer table. Perhaps sliders in grooves to keep alignment true. 

It's not real hard to make a spring loaded or hand loaded guide pin or floating ball (spring pressure) to set tack alignment. Most anything used on a turntable could be adapted. Could be as simple as a rod on top of the shelf and a push bar on the right to apply slight prsseure as the tracks are aligned. 

Transition grades are easy with a wood sub roadbed. Screw the first half down and lift or push down the other end, a natural easement will happen. If plywood, watch out for voids. 

If you added another siding out front you could use a shorter transfer table and assemble a train on the aisle siding and pull straight out over the table. 

Good Luck and of course we want pictures. 

John 

John


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Jerry,

I think that if you want fully automated operation, it's possible. Doable, even. But as someone has already pointed out, it'd be heavy on maintenance and not at all simple to build.

Semper had what I consider the best solution: an armstrong method.

_When_ I get my layout started, since it will be a PP, the 'outgoing train' will go away behind something tall and right onto what the Brits seem to call a 'cassette'. (I call it a trough with tracks on the bottom and of course, a *closed* far end and sides.) A microswitch will kill track power to the trou--er, cassette. I go around, pull the trough full of a train out of the pin/support guides and slide it into a rack under the table. I select the incoming train--also already in its trough, its consist made up via skyhook, stick the pins in the holes and go back around to beer and civilization and turn on the power and lo, the afternoon milk run from Points North chugs onto the layout.

Either end of the trough is removable for obvious reasons, and either end will plug into the lead track to the board. The electrical connections are as crude as they need to be for effectiveness. The 'Kill Relay' is reset when the trough is pulled free. The 'rear' end blocker is slipped in if I'm feeling especially unlucky.

Now, I'm running dinky indoor SL. I believe you said you might need as much as 8' of length. So you make a permant stand out about 3/4 from the end for your table and have at it. All you need to do (famous phrase, that







) is glue your guidepins securely (I'd put a crosspin in 'em, like a small nail and glue it too) and two mating metal receptacles the same diameter +.015" inch in the table. There's a tad of elevation mismatch, you say? Well, aren't you glad you installed another stand a foot or so away from the table! A shim of wood should line you right up. But there's a tad of left/right mismatch? A slot cut on either side of the skirt of the benchwork and another tapered piece of wood (or both sides, if weather takes a toll, or you're a worrier like me, you just shove those 'gibs' in to align to suit...

But, you wonder, what if that 8-footer sags? Well, a piece of aluminum square stock will not only help that, but lo, will give you a guiderail when you shove that long board into its storage slot. Point of fact, if you made notches in your two support tables, you could set those gib pins there--probably the innermost one-- and not bother with cutting slots in the skirt of the table.

Just a notion of mine.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Semper Vaporo on 18 Sep 2009 05:26 PM 
How much room do you have on the left of the whole layout? Could you just run the trains out the left of the storage area onto, say, a 4 to 6-ft long board with track that is on a "table" with shortlegs that position it at the correct height for the storage (lower) area. then raise the board to the upper (layout) area onto a taller narrow "table" that aligns with one track of the upper layout. It could all be armstrong (manual) operation to position the long board to move the trains out and then lift that board to the upper area. Putting the trains away would just be the opposite. Of course the "lifting board" would need stops on the outer end and maybe railings (sides) to keep the cars from falling off if it gets inadvertantly tipped while lifting (or lowering) the train from one level of the table to the other. 

The layout is in a field with a walkway around it. I need to keep the ability for myself and visitors to walk around the layout without having to detour around a significant extension of the layout that just provides for the movement of trains up and down.

If I do anything I would like it to be permanent, easily accessible and both maintenance and trouble free. A board long enough to hold 6 - 8 cars would be too heavy for me to handle manually.

I appreciate the suggestion,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Les on 18 Sep 2009 07:14 PM 
Jerry,

I think that if you want fully automated operation, it's possible. Doable, even. But as someone has already pointed out, it'd be heavy on maintenance and not at all simple to build.




By automated operation all I would envision would be turnouts to each of the sidings below to pull cars out of their individual sidings and onto a feeder track to go up to the layout. If done right I should be able to pull as much as the full 16 feet of cars that may be parked on a siding.

Preferably I would like a hands off operation but as they say "the devil is in the details."

Thanks,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You could move the under storage area to the other side of the table where you see your stub track at that's along the outer edge of the layout. Move the switch for this track back and reinstall in the curve. Seeing how this is a right hand turnout you would need to replace with a left hand one and it could be placed anywhere in the curve to give you length of the to the new track. Take a saw and cut out where the track is just wide enough so you can lower it to meet the new location of the storage track. Do not know what kind of grade it give you but should be reasonable. Later RJD


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 19 Sep 2009 06:19 AM 
Posted By Semper Vaporo on 18 Sep 2009 05:26 PM 
How much room do you have on the left of the whole layout? Could you just run the trains out the left of the storage area onto, say, a 4 to 6-ft long board with track that is on a "table" with shortlegs that position it at the correct height for the storage (lower) area. then raise the board to the upper (layout) area onto a taller narrow "table" that aligns with one track of the upper layout. It could all be armstrong (manual) operation to position the long board to move the trains out and then lift that board to the upper area. Putting the trains away would just be the opposite. Of course the "lifting board" would need stops on the outer end and maybe railings (sides) to keep the cars from falling off if it gets inadvertantly tipped while lifting (or lowering) the train from one level of the table to the other. 

The layout is in a field with a walkway around it. I need to keep the ability for myself and visitors to walk around the layout without having to detour around a significant extension of the layout that just provides for the movement of trains up and down.

If I do anything I would like it to be permanent, easily accessible and both maintenance and trouble free. A board long enough to hold 6 - 8 cars would be too heavy for me to handle manually.

I appreciate the suggestion,

Jerry


Well... hmmmm... to keep the walkway open, instead of a "table" make it just a ledge on the layout structure and a series of posts or railing on the outside of the walkway that is at the same height as the ledge and then a board could bridge the gap when moving trains and be remove entirely to make way for people.

BUT... I recognize the possible difficulty of handling a long board with several cars on it. I walk with a cane so everything I do has to be pretty much able to be handled with one hand only since the other one is holding my third leg. 

So the next problem is how to make it easier to move the loaded board. And that would take some engineering that at present my brain is unable to come up with a "simple" way to do that (read that as CHEAP! and easy to assemble, and not require a precision mechanism to operate reliably and easily). Ramps with rollers on the ends of the board to run on, a rope and pully system... at first thought those seem simple, but to put them in practice (cheap, reliable, easy operation) could be near impossible.

As for feeder tracks and switches to a ramp under the layout. How much room would there be for YOU to get under the layout to retrieve errant cars and locos when the inevitible derailment occurs... Especially the storage tracks deepest under the layout.

A "Transfer table" under the layout would only work if there are no support posts in the way of sideways movement of the table! 

Similar problem for a ramp of track coming up from the bottom. Going past the "joists" of the floor of the system could be a major rebuild of the elevated structure unless it is hung on the outside of it.


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm assuming this whole thing is basically flat? If the scenery, etc. would allow for it, I would have another switch in the collection at the top of the picture. That line would enter a tunnel the would lower you to the level of storage. That looks like it might be an industrial area. If the landscaping doesn't allow for a tunnel, perhaps a building of some kind would have a siding going inside of it. I'd look at putting the switch just past (right) of the switch into the figure 8. Once inside, begin your grade down below. That should give you about 20 straight feet to come down and maybe a little into the curve, minimizing your "grading on the curve." Continue that line on the lower level on around under the curve on the right side. Continue the curve just a little bit farther, then swing back so you're centered into your "yard". There are a variety of switching methods to get the trains into the tracks. You may use one or two 'normal' switches, then a section of flexible rail to hand move between the storage tracks. I've seen this done at a number of layouts. 

I do see a couple of issues with this arrangement. First, you either have to back the train into the tunnel, pushing the cars into place, or you have to have access to the end of the yard and pull the train through and take the locomotive off the end by hand. Or, you back out of the yard, up and out of the tunnel onto the layout. Second, your yard is eight feet wide! While generous, it could mean some fancy construction to arrange the switching into the yard. Also, I don't know what your access is to under the layout for the additional construction needed. It sounds like it is flat plywood. You say 48" or less high, so I guess it is up on some type of benchwork. That would mean a lot of crawling on your back time in construction. 

Just some thoughts.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Jerry,
I hope there is room underneath to allow for the tracks to behave as you want.

I didn't realise this layout was free standing...in a field. 

Why not make an out and back grade a wide aisle away from the layout and make the circle part as flat as you want? Lift out bridges are a lot easier to handle and any added width might compromise your ability to reach in on the layout.
Make your switch ladder the opposite way, leading to the edge and a lift out. 

I make suggestions... you make decisions.

Have fun!

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

These pictures may help show what I am looking for:










I chose this photo because it shows that the layout is on a sloped hill limited accessibility below it. The storage area is to the left front where the end of the layout is about 3 feet above the ground. With the gazebo etc. it would make it inconvenient for movement of visitors to have a ramp sticking out from an end of the layout. I am 6' 5" and 300 lbs so I don't slip under and into places like I could years ago.


Below is what I had in mind but my inability to maintain a grade through the curve is what is keeping me from considering it practical as there would only be 20 feet of grade from the upper layout to the beginning of the curve (the red track is from the upper layout to and including the sidings in the storage area - the red box). That would give me more than a 5% grade allowing for the hump and dip. Although a Rack Loco could handle the grade an accidental uncoupling could result in major damage to runaway cars and a 5% could make pushing the cars uphill perhaps too difficult for any cars with hook and loop couplers.










If I could continue the grade through the curve it would increase my grade to 36 feet and drop the grade to under 3%.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 19 Sep 2009 08:37 AM 
You could move the under storage area to the other side of the table where you see your stub track at that's along the outer edge of the layout. Move the switch for this track back and reinstall in the curve. Seeing how this is a right hand turnout you would need to replace with a left hand one and it could be placed anywhere in the curve to give you length of the to the new track. Take a saw and cut out where the track is just wide enough so you can lower it to meet the new location of the storage track. Do not know what kind of grade it give you but should be reasonable. Later RJD 

Hi RJD,


When I decided not to use the portable layout anymore I built the new layout onto and around it. The storage area is now a permanent part of the layout and cannot be moved or removed without destroying the layout.

I realize it is hard to develop ideas from just a picture but that is about all I can do.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## ThinkerT (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok... 

1) I see both 'reach' and 'headknocker' problems with trying to get to the storage tracks under the layout should any sort of problem occur (derailment, loco stalling out, or any of a dozen other things). 

2) Given that you seem to have abundant space available on all sides of the layout, why not put the storage area 'off the table' all together? That is, make a seperate module, say 4 x 16 feet, at the same level as the rest of it, with the difference being that it could be 'covered' if need be.


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

I just assumed that something like the crude drawing below would be the obvious solution to yield the longest run between elevation changes (thus minimizing the grade). My apologies if I've missed something in the thread that would preclude using such as solution...

At the upper left I'm only suggesting one that you branch off the mainline (blue) at one point but showing two possible ways to do so...maybe this will help or spark an idea in someone else that will be the "right" solution for you.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, 
Franks crude sketch is about what I was trying to say. If the grade is all on the outside (top of sketch) the graded curves are a non-issue. You still need to account for the transition and possible un-coupling) but maybe folks could help you with that? 

Chas


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## barnmichael (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, Frank's sketch is basically what I was trying to describe above. That will give you almost 40 feet of grade transition before you get to the curve. 

As far as the hook and loop couplers, the solution for that is easy. Change everything to knuckle couplers like they ought to be. It gets you away from the "toy" look.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

One factor I failed to mention is that the layout has been built entirely with used brass track, turnouts etc. that were left over from my trailer layout and the reconstruction of my primary outside layout where I replaced the brass track & turnouts with stainless steel track and nickel plated turnouts.

I still have some R1 turnouts and straight track (that I can bend) but I have used all of my R3 turnouts. The upper deck has all 8' diameter or greater curves (and needs to stay that way) but since the storage is entirely going to hold freight cars I can use my R1 turnouts to access it.

Funds are very limited now so any additional construction costs need to be minimal. Since the current storage area is 8' x 16' and has 7 each 16 foot sidings (112 feet of track) in it I would not want to go to the expense of building another storage area especially if it ended up with less covered storage area.

One major problem with my illustrated plan is the limited accessibility for coupling and uncoupling cars as they enter or depart the storage area..

I am now starting to think that I will have to bite the bullet and put the entry to the sidings to the left (west) of the layout with perhaps a straight uphill grade then looping back to the layout. This is exactly what I was trying to avoid but it would give relatively easy access to couple and uncouple the cars. Unfortunately it would be a real pain to have to walk around it all the time.










Another disadvantage is that it would allow easy access to all sorts of critters (squirrels, raccoons etc.) to get up on the layout since the storage area level is only about 2 feet above the ground (compared to the top being 4 feet high). The ramp for the trains would make an easy walkway for critters to the layout top.

Still, that may be what I will have to do.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By barnmichael on 21 Sep 2009 07:10 AM 

As far as the hook and loop couplers, the solution for that is easy. Change everything to knuckle couplers like they ought to be. It gets you away from the "toy" look. 


Actually I love hook and loop couplers. With them I can quickly and easily reach out and uncouple them (MUCH easier than knuckle couplers) plus they are far less likely to uncouple accidentally (especially on the hump and dip of steep ramps). Most important they will couple to each other just about anywhere - even on curves which knuckle couplers cannot do and they don't have metal springs to rust as with Kadees.

Additionally I can remotely hook up and drop off cars anywhere on the layout with LGB 21900 or 23900 Auto-Uncoupling Switchers.

I do use a quantity of knuckle couplers depending on the individual situation but my preferred knuckle coupler is LGB and to equip a lot of cars would be cost prohibitive.

As for "the "toy" look I think that is way too exaggerated because when a train is rolling in front of me the last thing I would notice would be the couplers.

If I should happen to have an accidental uncoupling with any cars in the storage area I would have to remove EVERYTHING just to be able to get at the uncoupled cars as it would be quite unlikely (especially if a car derailed) to be able to recouple with it but if the cars have hook & loop couplers they would be highly unlikely to uncouple and if they did it would be super simple to recouple to them and pull them out.

Some folks like battery and live steam but while I play with them I always come back to analog track power just as some folks like different knuckle couplers and I've tried them but keep coming back to hook & loop couplers.

Its kind of like large flanges on wheels. They may not impress some folks who want them to be prototypically small but I love them because they stay on the rails much better.

Toylike suits me because it usually means more bullet proof.

One of my very favorite trains can only be described as toylike but I love it:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je.../F7ST3.wmv

Regards,

Jerry


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Ok here's another thought...basically abandon, but do not remove the under layout storage and build the storage yard on a new "table" adjacent to or at a distance from the current layout. Reuse the actual track that is currently in the underside storage obviously.

One possible configuration might look like this:

Layout idea #2

The image is 1280 pixels wide but if I reduced it to 640 the text became unreadable. Sorry if the formatting isn't convenient.

I know you are concerned with cost...I understand I have to do my GRR'ing on the cheap these days. Don't over look the possibility of obtaining free materials...


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By fsfazekas on 22 Sep 2009 02:49 AM 
Ok here's another thought...basically abandon, but do not remove the under layout storage and build the storage yard on a new "table" adjacent to or at a distance from the current layout. Reuse the actual track that is currently in the underside storage obviously.

One possible configuration might look like this:

Layout idea #2

I know you are concerned with cost...I understand I have to do my GRR'ing on the cheap these days. Don't over look the possibility of obtaining free materials...



Hi Frank,

That may be a solution for sometime in the future. If I had it to do over I would probably have built the layout differently and not built the storage area in where it is but at the time it was a quick way to start the layout.

One thing that would have to be worked in is that to build the sidings to the right of the layout would put them at least 6 feet off the ground and very hard to get at and at the other end of the layout the sidings would end up at less than 3 feet above the ground making an extension perhaps too high or too low.

There is not a simple solution which is why I brought the subject up.

I don't know where I could find free 4" x 4"s or 2" x 4"s or plywood around here (rural Arkansas) so I am pretty much limited to buying new lumber.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

Is there any reason to put the sidings UNDER the layout? Would you consider building your storage area on top? You could even build a train shed to keep the rain off them. Might be pretty cool, and you could do that fairly cheaply with a couple sheets of plywood. Eventually, you could get fancy and build it up to look like one of those famous railway stations in England. 

Moving your storage ABOVE your layout solves several problems: 

1. easier access to the trains. In considering trains under the layout, I would be mostly concerned with a derailment of that middle track, and climbing under to re-rail without derailing another car in the process. 
2. keeps critters off the layout.
3. Prevents more splashing up from dirt under the layout.
4. Displays your unused trains while other trains are running.

You've got a lot of great ideas right here, just move your thought from UNDER to OVER. 

Just a thought.

Mark

PS, I haven't been following the caboose thing, but it looks like you got your caboose moved to your house! Looking good! I can't wait to see it in person!


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 22 Sep 2009 08:09 AM 
Jerry,

Is there any reason to put the sidings UNDER the layout? Would you consider building your storage area on top? You could even build a train shed to keep the rain off them. Might be pretty cool, and you could do that fairly cheaply with a couple sheets of plywood. Eventually, you could get fancy and build it up to look like one of those famous railway stations in England. 

Moving your storage ABOVE your layout solves several problems: 

1. easier access to the trains. In considering trains under the layout, I would be mostly concerned with a derailment of that middle track, and climbing under to re-rail without derailing another car in the process. 
2. keeps critters off the layout.
3. Prevents more splashing up from dirt under the layout.
4. Displays your unused trains while other trains are running.

You've got a lot of great ideas right here, just move your thought from UNDER to OVER. 

Just a thought.

Mark

PS, I haven't been following the caboose thing, but it looks like you got your caboose moved to your house! Looking good! I can't wait to see it in person!



Hi Mark,

As I consider the cost of building a ramp and extended sidings to hold the turnouts it just might turn out not being much more expensive than using the storage that is under the layout (plus that storage area leaks).

The one thing I do like about the below storage is that it is easy to lock up plus the fact that above storage might be more difficult to access the cars but then I could use the existing side panels and perhaps hinge them to make it easier to get to the inside.

If I was a craftsman your idea of a railway station would be very attractive.

Sometimes hearing the same or similar suggestion from several people helps it sink in better.

You are always welcome to come and visit.

Regards,

Jerry


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Hi Jerry - just wanted to mention that I could not get a sense of scale from the photo you posted so the right side of the layout seemed the most accessible. Through the magic of cut and paste you could put the yard/storage/expansion on the left side or even straight out the "back" at either (end meaning pointing directly away from the caboose). I agree that a platform 6' off the ground would have its own challenges. Viewing the photo and reading your description, I thought that putting the expansion on the left of the current layout might be too low to the ground or also allow easy access by "critters" as you mentioned.

BTW, I loved the video of the transparent LGB engines...I was in pretty dire financial straights at the time those we being clearanced by Trainworld et. al., so sadly was never able to accquire any. Makes a nice light show 

As far as free materials go...you might consider http://www.craigslist.org/. I just located an 800 sq ft double wide (ideal for a deer camp it says) that is free if I can move it... http://littlerock.craigslist.org/zip/1385539697.html (It's a LONG way to California - ha ha)

In the past I have looked for cars, patio bricks (pavers), tile, gravel, etc....in any case it's just another option that's available.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Frank and Mark,

If I put the sidings on the upper level I would probably do something like this:










To put it into scale the squares are 4'.

This would increase the layout from 12' x 40' to 12' x 64' but if the layout was extended to include the sidings I might as well include them in both inner and outer loops. On the other hand it would eliminate any ramps and grades.

It all comes down to the amount of work and cost of it vs leaving it the way it is.

Something to think about anyway.

Thanks for Everyone's suggestions.

Jerry


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## fsfazekas (Feb 19, 2008)

Great idea! That sure gives you a lot more options for "playing trains"...


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By fsfazekas on 22 Sep 2009 11:52 AM 
Great idea! That sure gives you a lot more options for "playing trains"... 

Thanks to RR Track I was able to figure out that it would take 7 sheets of plywood to build a ramp:











and only two more sheets to extend the layout:










That makes it pretty obvious that there would be a lot more bang for the buck with the extended layout.

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

For your yard, have you considered one of those space saver yard switches made by Train-Li? I know they are pricey, but compared with multiple switches and your space considerations, you might be able to shorten the entire length you need by using one or two of those. I am not sure if they can be automated or not, either. Just a thought.

Mark


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 22 Sep 2009 01:27 PM 
Jerry,

For your yard, have you considered one of those space saver yard switches made by Train-Li? I know they are pricey, but compared with multiple switches and your space considerations, you might be able to shorten the entire length you need by using one or two of those. I am not sure if they can be automated or not, either. Just a thought.

Mark


Hi Mark,

My main objective is to keep the cost as low as possible and since I already have LGB R1 electric switches I would not want to buy any other switches.

Actually I think the solution occurred to me and it should be cheap, easy to build and solve the problem very nicely.

Instead of duplicating the current storage space which was dictated by the confines of the trailer I finally realized it was not the number of sidings that was critical as much as the length of those sidings. If I can park all the cars for a train on one siding rather than on two I can get by with half the number of sidings.










With the above all I need is to add three pieces of plywood (not 7 or 9) and it would be much easier to cover making it waterproof. If I need longer sidings I can simply add another piece of plywood and all the track that would have been needed to extend the layout or for ramps will be minimized with the above extension.

The same could have been done on the other side but that side is used a lot more and would run under a tree but it would work better with my existing R3 switches. I will probably put the sidings on the left if I decide it will work OK.

Regards,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The alternative:










Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

After thinking further this has come to mind as something I could build in stages as time and money become available:










It had not occurred to me to pass through the sidings and loop back,

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The advantage of procrastinating is that sometimes the final results end up better for having waited.

Once again a change:










After seeing Marty's layout I first appreciated the advantage of being able to run trains through the shed and then I realized that the shed could double as a rain shelter giving me a place to park any trains in the event of a sudden rain shower.

That made me realize that the shed needed to be slightly longer to cover a 12 car freight train along with the loco and caboose. The sheds are on the right and left sides outlined in brown.

Jerry


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry -- why not use a climbing wye instead of a loop. You could run the yard out underneath and using the length of the layout to cut the grade in half then back the train up the second straight grade to the surface of the layout and pull it onto the rail way somewhere in the center of where your sidings are. Tried to draw the thing, but my skills there are not to good so....

Mark


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By imrnjr on 01 Oct 2009 08:06 AM 
Jerry -- why not use a climbing wye instead of a loop. You could run the yard out underneath and using the length of the layout to cut the grade in half then back the train up the second straight grade to the surface of the layout and pull it onto the rail way somewhere in the center of where your sidings are. Tried to draw the thing, but my skills there are not to good so....

Mark





Hi Mark,

That was one idea I had originally considered and why I made the outside sidings (with the idea of moving them off the deck and onto a wye).

The problem was that the wye would have to be three times as long as the train (to get it to the wye, on the wye, and back off the wye. 

The other factor was that the wye would not serve any purpose when not parking trains but the loop has the advantage of not wasting any track because it would all be used either for sidings or as part of the main line.

The layout design is still undecided and each step seems to make more logic to me but unfortunately funds are critically low at the moment so it may be some time before I get it built. I have pretty much all the track and turnouts but lumber is expensive.

I appreciate the suggestion. 

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

A new concept I am now working on is to surface the additional sections with something other than the outdoor carpeting I have used in the past.

Whatever I use will have to be waterproof to keep water from seeping through the train shed roofs onto rolling stock parked underneath it.

So far all I have thought of would be green paint with chicken grit for ballast under the rails. Something to improve the green painted surface is desirable if not too expensive.

Additionally I will be looking for some ideas on how to make the plywood boxes the current plans call for to make the train sheds into something more attractive and actually looking like something a railroad would have (train station, storage sheds or whatever). It would be great to make it somewhat like the grand stations such as Kings Cross or an American station as long as it was not too difficult or expensive (I am no craftsman).

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Another change:










A friend was visiting today and as I explained the planned changes including using a switcher to assemble trains from the sheds it became apparent that with the old design any switching would have blocked the main line.

I have now turned the sheds to face north so that now any switching can be done with trains in the sheds without interfering with the main line.

This way two switchers can be assembling or disassembling trains on the upper tracks while two can be running trains on the two lower loops (even further someone else could be working on the inside of the crossover).


Jerry


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## imrnjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry--

I built my train shed out of sheet metal because I had it available, but any good quality PTL plywood caulked, painted, and roofed withfelt and cedar shingles or composite roofing materials will keep your trains dry and protected. Hinged or slide in doors will keep out the varmits and most of the rain/mud splatter. 

good luck with the build out

Mark


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By imrnjr on 02 Oct 2009 09:58 PM 
Jerry--

I built my train shed out of sheet metal because I had it available, but any good quality PTL plywood caulked, painted, and roofed withfelt and cedar shingles or composite roofing materials will keep your trains dry and protected. Hinged or slide in doors will keep out the varmits and most of the rain/mud splatter. 

good luck with the build out

Mark


Hi Mark,

When I saw Marty's train shed (made from steel over concrete) I really liked it - especially when Marty said he has no problems from heat.

After reflecting on it I realized that we are over 500 miles south of Marty (hotter summers) and that I would not have a concrete base to reduce the heat. The steel, in the sun, would probably get unacceptably hot here in Arkansas and I would guess that the steel would also attract and hold moisture (condensation) here that could be a problem.

Wood on the other hand tends to absorb moisture and insulate against heat and cold which is why I am leaning once again toward wood sheds.

It may be some time before I have the funds and energy to start the expansion of the layout and like my crawl space it will be done one 4' x 8' section at a time.

One problem with this is that I will probably have to start with the sidings reversed (pointed to the layout) so I can start using them asap but later as the layout expands far enough I will reverse them so I can use them better as switching yards. The bad part is that the switching will not be possible until the entire loop is completed. Meanwhile any switching will interfere with operations of the outer main line.

Nothing is ever simple.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi, Jerry 
How are you ? Within this post, it seen you would like to building a lower deck yard for storage rolling stocks. I have reviewed all posts. I think the extendion line to connecting the lower deck yard with a long straight track and turn a bigger curve to reach the yard is the better. If you put a sharp curve to connecting the lower deck yard. I would concern some derailment and some locomotives couldn't going pass. Anyhow, very great to know your big project. Hope everything are going smooth. 
Have a nice Thursday, 
Tony


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Tony,

It is nice to hear from you. I hope the project you and Gary have is working out well.

I have about decided to build new storage areas (train sheds) on the upper level to avoid ramps and potential derailments and for better protection of the trains. 

My plans have slowed down to perhaps building the layout extension in the spring but It turns out that I am already getting some rust on the springs and metal wheels of some new freight cars so I may have to try to do something sooner.

Regards,

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,

When I suggested a train shed way back near the top of the thread, I was thinking it would be used to protect the trains from rain and also to provide storage.

I love how your ideas start small and simple then grow and grow and grow!! Just how far would a run of single track be to connect to your main railroad and basement layout?! Can't be that much farther, can it?! All in due time, I suppose!! 

It is funny how, when trying to figure out where to store trains, plans of expansion become much more plausable. Case in point, I have added two long, dead storage tracks for the open house here. Last year, they were simply tracks laid directly on the ground with a few leveling twigs to keep cars from falling off the track. Not the best. This year I installed the 'temporary' storage tracks on 'permanent' ballast. When I finished, I realized where and how I could expand my railroad to include two separate loops. Now I have to come up with the capital to purchase more stainless track and a couple of #6 switches! 

I know you are having fun! 

Mark


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By markoles on 08 Oct 2009 07:20 AM 
Jerry,

When I suggested a train shed way back near the top of the thread, I was thinking it would be used to protect the trains from rain and also to provide storage.

I love how your ideas start small and simple then grow and grow and grow!! Just how far would a run of single track be to connect to your main railroad and basement layout?! Can't be that much farther, can it?! All in due time, I suppose!! 

It is funny how, when trying to figure out where to store trains, plans of expansion become much more plausible. Case in point, I have added two long, dead storage tracks for the open house here. Last year, they were simply tracks laid directly on the ground with a few leveling twigs to keep cars from falling off the track. Not the best. This year I installed the 'temporary' storage tracks on 'permanent' ballast. When I finished, I realized where and how I could expand my railroad to include two separate loops. Now I have to come up with the capital to purchase more stainless track and a couple of #6 switches! 

I know you are having fun! 

Mark


Hi Mark,

I never know where a project or problem will lead me. This year I am afraid the economy and accompanying bargains have tempted me into debt. The caboose reminds me of the movie "The Money Pit" because there seems to be no end of problems, and projects it has led to. 

I had thought I would be happy with simply moving my trailer layout to the caboose and using it as a club layout but you know how long that lasted.

Now that I am 65 and losing agility and mobility it is hard to balance the years I figure I have left to enjoy the layouts against borrowing money to expand them.

Marilyn hopes to retire in 1 1/2 years so anything I want to do needs to be done and paid for before that happens.

"I installed the 'temporary' storage tracks on 'permanent' ballast" By now we should both know that there is nothing permanent about this hobby.









For both of us I don't think this hobby is or ever will be "finished" because I think we need plans for the future to avoid getting bored with the present. I think that is the real reason why we both had to try the Revolution.









Regards,

Jerry


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

You will find that at times having someone over to see the layout and discuss what you would like to do is a lot easier to get results than to post here as it's hard to visualize what you have in mind. Seems things work out much better. I know as I in the processes of building a 40 ft staging yard to be fully enclosed and trying to figure how to come off the main to make all this happen. Have had a friend of mine over several times and I think we have come up with the final solution. will post when more of the project progresses. later RJD


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi, Jerry 

Glad to hearing from you also. So sorry, I got a wrong idea from you. I would be clear now as you would like to building an upper storage yard for protection of those rolling stocks. So sorry to heard that some springs and wheel of your freight cars had become a bit rusty. Hope you could fix it very soon. For the same, I would suggest to have a bit bigger curve for U-turn track to storage yard. Maybe it is so difficult to make. Hope everything of you are going smooth. 

Both Gary and me as well as one more friend Mr. Martin are constructing an aluminium bridges. There were 4 bridges need to built. Gary is testing some skeleton. When we have any picture, I would send you for reference. 

In coming weekend, I shall have a BBQ party with my family in fine weather. In Hong Kong, we are so difficult to have a BBQ party in country side because our weather is usually so hot. You can guest most of us have live and work under the air conditioning. Some people could afford under the strong sunlight !!! Heeheehee... 

Have a fun with railroad, 
Tony


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By aceinspp on 08 Oct 2009 06:30 PM 
You will find that at times having someone over to see the layout and discuss what you would like to do is a lot easier to get results than to post here as it's hard to visualize what you have in mind. Seems things work out much better. I know as I in the processes of building a 40 ft staging yard to be fully enclosed and trying to figure how to come off the main to make all this happen. Have had a friend of mine over several times and I think we have come up with the final solution. will post when more of the project progresses. later RJD 

Hi, RJD

Nice to talk with you too. I would agree with your comment that if anyone of Jerry's freind could visit his home to help for figure out how to building the storage yard. It would be more easier to find the solution and checking out any risky. Note that you are constructing a 40ft staging yard. If you have any picture, could you share with us.

I am living in Hong Kong. Overthere, there are very few people are modellers of model trains as specially as G scale modellers. I have built a portable layout with my friends now. The layout will show and run trains inside any shopping plaza. Base on the current working status, we think our layout could be ready in around Feb'2010. We have a big curve tracks as 20ft and 19ft in parallel. The total diagonal length of our loop is 85ft. If possible, maybe extend to 110ft.

Thank you very much.
Have a fun with railroad,
Tony


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 08 Oct 2009 10:30 AM 
Posted By markoles on 08 Oct 2009 07:20 AM 
Jerry,

When I suggested a train shed way back near the top of the thread, I was thinking it would be used to protect the trains from rain and also to provide storage.

I love how your ideas start small and simple then grow and grow and grow!! Just how far would a run of single track be to connect to your main railroad and basement layout?! Can't be that much farther, can it?! All in due time, I suppose!! 

It is funny how, when trying to figure out where to store trains, plans of expansion become much more plausible. Case in point, I have added two long, dead storage tracks for the open house here. Last year, they were simply tracks laid directly on the ground with a few leveling twigs to keep cars from falling off the track. Not the best. This year I installed the 'temporary' storage tracks on 'permanent' ballast. When I finished, I realized where and how I could expand my railroad to include two separate loops. Now I have to come up with the capital to purchase more stainless track and a couple of #6 switches! 

I know you are having fun! 

Mark


Hi Mark,

I never know where a project or problem will lead me. This year I am afraid the economy and accompanying bargains have tempted me into debt. The caboose reminds me of the movie "The Money Pit" because there seems to be no end of problems, and projects it has led to. 

I had thought I would be happy with simply moving my trailer layout to the caboose and using it as a club layout but you know how long that lasted.

Now that I am 65 and losing agility and mobility it is hard to balance the years I figure I have left to enjoy the layouts against borrowing money to expand them.

Marilyn hopes to retire in 1 1/2 years so anything I want to do needs to be done and paid for before that happens.

"I installed the 'temporary' storage tracks on 'permanent' ballast" By now we should both know that there is nothing permanent about this hobby.









For both of us I don't think this hobby is or ever will be "finished" because I think we need plans for the future to avoid getting bored with the present. I think that is the real reason why we both had to try the Revolution.









Regards,

Jerry




Hi, Jerry/Mark

I would agree with you that our railroads are never permanent. We have to developing in part by part to growing. Then, we could found something are interest and target. For me and Gary, we are also having many issues need to learning. Maybe we need to consulting with you as you are an expert. Thank you very much.

Have a nice Friday,
Tony


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 08 Oct 2009 06:30 PM 
You will find that at times having someone over to see the layout and discuss what you would like to do is a lot easier to get results than to post here as it's hard to visualize what you have in mind. Seems things work out much better. I know as I in the processes of building a 40 ft staging yard to be fully enclosed and trying to figure how to come off the main to make all this happen. Have had a friend of mine over several times and I think we have come up with the final solution. will post when more of the project progresses. later RJD 
I agree but when one lives in rural Arkansas and there are very few fellow large scalers around there is little option of others visualizing what I have in mind other than via the internet.

Often it is when I am explaining what I plan to do (either in person or on the internet) that it becomes obvious to me that there is a better way to do whatever I am trying to do just as this topic has led me to make several changes before I started on the layout expansion.

There are literally more than 1,000 MLSers for each local large scaler.

Jerry


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By TonyLou on 08 Oct 2009 07:39 PM 
Hi, Jerry 

Glad to hearing from you also. So sorry, I got a wrong idea from you. I would be clear now as you would like to building an upper storage yard for protection of those rolling stocks. So sorry to heard that some springs and wheel of your freight cars had become a bit rusty. Hope you could fix it very soon. For the same, I would suggest to have a bit bigger curve for U-turn track to storage yard. Maybe it is so difficult to make. Hope everything of you are going smooth. 

Both Gary and me as well as one more friend Mr. Martin are constructing an aluminium bridges. There were 4 bridges need to built. Gary is testing some skeleton. When we have any picture, I would send you for reference. 

In coming weekend, I shall have a BBQ party with my family in fine weather. In Hong Kong, we are so difficult to have a BBQ party in country side because our weather is usually so hot. You can guest most of us have live and work under the air conditioning. Some people could afford under the strong sunlight !!! Heeheehee... 

Have a fun with railroad, 
Tony 

Hi Tony,

I had no idea Hong Kong was so hot. Our summers get hot (high 90s in Fahrenheit) but we are entering fall and temperatures are now in 70s and 80s (my favorite time of year).

When you get your bridges done it will be really interesting to see them. You may wish to post information about how you made them.

Regards,

Jerry


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## TonyLou (Sep 3, 2009)

Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Oct 2009 07:47 AM 
Posted By TonyLou on 08 Oct 2009 07:39 PM 
Hi, Jerry 

Glad to hearing from you also. So sorry, I got a wrong idea from you. I would be clear now as you would like to building an upper storage yard for protection of those rolling stocks. So sorry to heard that some springs and wheel of your freight cars had become a bit rusty. Hope you could fix it very soon. For the same, I would suggest to have a bit bigger curve for U-turn track to storage yard. Maybe it is so difficult to make. Hope everything of you are going smooth. 

Both Gary and me as well as one more friend Mr. Martin are constructing an aluminium bridges. There were 4 bridges need to built. Gary is testing some skeleton. When we have any picture, I would send you for reference. 

In coming weekend, I shall have a BBQ party with my family in fine weather. In Hong Kong, we are so difficult to have a BBQ party in country side because our weather is usually so hot. You can guest most of us have live and work under the air conditioning. Some people could afford under the strong sunlight !!! Heeheehee... 

Have a fun with railroad, 
Tony 

Hi Tony,

I had no idea Hong Kong was so hot. Our summers get hot (high 90s in Fahrenheit) but we are entering fall and temperatures are now in 70s and 80s (my favorite time of year).

When you get your bridges done it will be really interesting to see them. You may wish to post information about how you made them.

Regards,

Jerry


Hi Jerry
In our summer time, the weather had 36c which is so hot and so humid in 88-96%. Now, the weather has cool down in average 24c on everyday. Also, this weekend has very fine sunlight.
Sure, I should post some pictures of our aluminium bridges once we have done any section. Thank you very much.
Have a nice weekend,
Tony


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