# Aristocraft ball bearing wheels



## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I have been looking all over the internet for a photo of Aristocrafts ball bearing wheels, and cannot find one, even on their site! I would like to know more about them before I buy them. Has anyone a close up photo of them?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't have a picture now, can put one up from an installation if no one has one. 

Basically, they are sort of the only game in town if you need power pickup without brushes rubbing on the backs of the wheels, or picking up from eyelets in the journals. 

They are ok, not as high quality as the LGB ones, but they are available. I use them for powered cars when I cannot justify the price of LGB (and the LGB ones are shiny, and large and VERY expensive). 

These are the wheels with bearings between the axle and each wheel. Not to be confused by putting ball bearings in the journals and both wheels fixed to the axle. 

Regards, Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I am very familiar with LGBs BB wheels. I have them on almost all of my rolling stock. But as you mentioned, getting very expensive. So I am looking for an alternative for the time being. I am curious to see if Marklin reissues them and what the price will be. If you don't mind posting a picture, I would appreciate seeing it.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Gary Raymond wheels are well made although the flanges are on the small side. About the same price as the aristo's, but power pick up from only one side of each axle.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Lousy picture, but it's cold outside and I have poor lighting right now. There are 2 tabs to solder to.

Some of the ball bearings feel a little rough, again as compared to the LGB which are silky smooth. This is a track sweeper car that sits outside under a balcony all the time, so it's dirty and dusty. 


Electrically the wheels perform well. 











Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

You also have JB .... they are bushing on the axle and will carry more power then a ballbearing and hookup just like a lgb


*Jay-Bee Bennett Enterprises
*P.O. Box 7031
Villa Park, IL 60181
630-832-3615


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott, do you have some details and pictures. 

My experience with bushings on the axles are very loose fit "eyelets" that Aristo uses on passenger cars and steam tenders. The fit between the axle and the eyelet is very loose, and I do not think much of this conduction path. 

Regards, Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks Greg.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Service with a smile buddy! 

Almost real time right? 

Regards, Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Train-Li has ball bearing sets and are stainless wheels. 

Call them and check it out.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

I have one set of the aristo BB wheels in use and it works very well. I have four sets of the Gary Raymond wheels and they work equally well, though I think they roll a little more freely. AML is supposed to be coming out with BB wheels, but it's been a year since they were announced.

I'm surprised there aren't more options for this--it's not rocket science. I've been using the "solder a wire to the bushing" method quite a bit, and it works but it's hardly the best way. Is it possible to modify a SanVal BB wheel to get power pickup?


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Dan Pierce on 01/27/2009 4:31 AM
Train-Li has ball bearing sets and are stainless wheels. 

Call them and check it out.




Where are they on the website? I can't find them anywhere


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I have one car that has the Aristo BB. Works well. The car came with the wheels but I am not going to be upgrading any cars in the near future.


Now Ive heard it all to cold for good photo. I thought Sand Diego was paradise







. Later RJD


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey RJ, it was night, and it must have been 57 degrees outside. Brrr.... have a heart will ya? I had to go get a parka to go outside.









Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

the bushing is tight with a .001 clearince o bushing to axle so the wheels do not wobble .............

to hook up leads you can solder to them or use the wire connecters JB gives you or what I do is use a small brass tube and slide it over the wires on the end and solder to the tube this way you can pull the wheelset easy if you need to 

we sell these for $31.60 for 2 axles at the store 

personly I am not fond of ballbearing for power pickup for two reasons 

1. if it is a sealed bearing is the grease sealed inside going to help or hurt power conduction?
2. the whole bearing is little so the Ball inside is what .060 ?? in dia and how big is the contact area of the ball to race .010 ???? whould you run a amp or 2 thru a wire that is only .010 ? It just cannot be good for the ball as I would think it would just weld itself to the race


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Scott I believe the contact area with a bushing IS better BUT not too much better. In terms of surface area measured it's not much, but in terms of percentage or area it's a LOT as I re-call. Greater minds than me can confrim or deny. 

Chas


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I use LGB ball bearing wheels on almost all of my rolling stock to backfeed the locos, as well as light my cars. I was skeptacle of the reliability of the power pickup myself. I did a little test. Most all of my rolling stock are the small field type four wheeled cars. I placed one on the track and backfed the loco as usual. Then I picked up the loco just enough so that the wheels and pickup shoes were not touching the rails. Lo and behold the loco kept on spinning it's wheels. Now thats with only one small four wheeled car providing power to the loco. Most of my trains are six to eight cars in length.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The grease makes no nevermind to conduction, just like grease in rail joints. 

Yes the contact patch is small. 

Why this works is that in the real world, the contact patches that electrons actually go though are much smaller than you realize. The amount of current per square inch (and you do not have a square inch) is like a million amps. This all works because the amount of metal near by keeps heat "drained off". 

The basic point: a small, clean, unoxidized, uncorroded contact patch is much better than a huge surface oxidized or corroded. 

Remember the contact patch between your wheel and the rail is plenty small also. 

Regards, Greg


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## KVBarkley (Jan 9, 2009)

Greg: 
I am currently performing just this kind of test for my real job. I am testing how long the gold conductor in a transistor chip will last. Currently I am running 100 mA through the conductor, which does not sound like much, but we are talking about a cross section measured in *microns*.


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## Santafe 2343 (Jan 2, 2008)

*Greg,* * Did you have to wear a coat when you went out to that cold night ? You said 57 degree's, that is swimming weather. Just to make you feel really warm, last week I worked outside for 8 hours, 5 days straight between 0 and -20 wind chill. And i'm getting pretty old.* * Can't take it much longer though. I need to retire before too long. Thanks Rex*


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Ya Rex he had to wear a Parka. Can you believe that. What a woos. Later RJD


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 3 cars worth of them. They roll very freely. The wheels turn independant of the axels. I don't use the power pickup any more. I don't remember what the plastic tab glued to the truck was for. 










These are several years old and have lots of miles on them.


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/27/2009 8:07 PM
The grease makes no nevermind to conduction, just like grease in rail joints. 

Yes the contact patch is small. 

Why this works is that in the real world, the contact patches that electrons actually go though are much smaller than you realize. The amount of current per square inch (and you do not have a square inch) is like a million amps. This all works because the amount of metal near by keeps heat "drained off". 

The basic point: a small, clean, unoxidized, uncorroded contact patch is much better than a huge surface oxidized or corroded. 

Remember the contact patch between your wheel and the rail is plenty small also. 

Regards, Greg


grease makes no nevermind ???????????? 

grease and oils in there base state are completely non conductive the only time curent will pass thru is if the film strignth breakes down and you have metal to metal contact or if you add something to the grease or oil to help the power go thru .......


the paste used on reail joints has graphite in it to help conduct other then that it is just there to keep the O2 away from the joint .... and I never said that the ballbearings do not conduct my worry as I have seen these go bad.... is that the heat genterated by the current will micro weld the balls in the bearing and destroy them ...... 

and why would a bushing be oxidized or corroded ? it has oil or grease on it just like a ballbearing or railjoint 

and yes the contact patch on a wheel is also small and how many of us have seen pitts on the wheels caused buy arcing ? think of what the surface of that small tiny ball must look like after some run time .

if you still think that oil is conductive look at this video that uses light mineral oil .... (you know the stuff like smoke fluid ) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtufuXLvOok 

and how many people use smoke fluid to clean there track ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott, you have to realize that there IS metal to metal contact in ball bearings, the contact point being so small, there is a very high PSI. So grease IN a bearing makes no nevermind to the conductivity. 

The graphite is not making it conductive, it is a lubricant. Get an ohmeter and verify for yourself. There are very few TRUE conductive greases, most of them have silver or gold in them and are VERY VERY expensive. The only cheap "grease" that is even somewhat conductive is the Aristo "electrolube" and it destroys plastic. 

Oil is not conductive either, and I did not say that. 

I think if you re-read what I said you will see these things. 

Regards, Greg


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

if you have meteal to metal contact in any bearing it will fail ....... the lubricant is there to form a film and stop this contact ......


and graphite is conductive ...... how am I to test this with a ohm meter when I cannot get the leads as close as we are talking without them touching ??


you do not have to have metal in the lub to make it conduct there is also carbon 

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=6613505&MPN=846-80G&R=6613505&SEARCH=6613505&DESC=846-80G


and you did not tell me why a bushing would oxide or corrode

or how the little tiny ball is not going to arc to the race 

and now if you think there is metal to metal contact how does the ball not friction weld to the race ?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott, why don't we take this discussion one point at a time. 

If there is a film that stops contact between the ball and the race, how can it conduct electricity? 

Think about it. 

The answer is that there is INDEED metal to metal contact. 

Let's get to first base first. 

If you agree with the above we can go to the next step. 

*So, do you agree that there is metal to metal contact in a ball bearing, since it conducts electricity? *

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

The only experience I have with aristo ball bearing wheels are on the snowplow car I have. That car came with those wheels and a headlight picks up power from them. The only thing I have noticed is that without the weight in the gon, it does not roll very well, at least not now that it has been used for several years in actual snowplow service. I have never had to oil or grease a ball bearing. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a ball bearing in the first place? 


I have reservations about a bushing bearing. Especially when looking at that one posted. It reminds me of the aristo FA-FB trucks I have, which used a bushing to pick up power from the rails. After a few years of heavy use, the axles wore the bushings oblong. The point of using ball bearings in my mind is that they can carry heavier loads, without wearing bushings oblong (I don't care if it a metal to metal or a metal to plastic bushing). Sure the tolerance is .001" when new, but how about now? And I would imagine that kind of bearing would need some kind of lubricant, but given the area of contact, I don't know how well it would squeeze an oil or grease out of the way. Sorry Scott, but I do not see an advantage for those bushing bearing wheels, and at that price, it is way out from where I sit. I don't think I even paid that much for LGB BB wheels, and only one does an excellent job of power pick up.


Mark


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Mark, You brought up a point I had thought about from time to time. The point of lubrication of ball bearing wheelsets. LGB says that under no circumstances would you want to lubricate their ball bearing wheels. San Val, in one of their ads that I remember seeing a couple of years ago, advertised that their ball bearing wheels would not rust like their European counterparts. If LGB's BB wheels are not to be oiled, and they will get stiff if left outdoors, then what keeps the ball bearings from corroding? I have some that are over ten years old and roll as freely now as when they were new. I don't leave my rolling stock outdoors when not in use. However, they are stored in a metal cabinet, sheltered from the rain, that is outdoors. [/b]


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No ball bearing can run dry without lubrication. LGB ones are not sealed well and can rust easily if moisture gets in them. They are not stainless steel. Some are. Aristo uses ceramic balls in their locos. Many different kinds of ball bearings.

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

I've never oiled my aristo or LGB ball bearings. Never had them squeak and I think it would be pretty apparent if one seized up. Why would one want them to be lubed? Wouldn't that make it more likely that the ball would slide rather than roll (kinetic friction vs. static friction)? And if it slid, rather than rolled, then wouldn't it build up flat spots? Now I am more curious than anything. The aristo plow is outside parked in the ice and snow on the siding. I am pretty sure the balls were showing signs of rusting, but with the weight in the gon, whatever rust was on them was broken off and she rolls very very well. 

Mark


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, do you believe that there is no lubrication in your ball bearings? That they were shipped dry from the factory? 

Greg


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

Greg,
LGB specifically stated to me in an email that their ball bearing wheels were not to be lubricated. That doesn't mean that some type of lubricant wasn't used at the factory. But if it was lubed, why do they roll so very freely?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

because they are already lubed from the factory with oil. They are telling you that they need no additional or routine maintenance (which is actually untrue for LGB run outdoors, they sometimes need lubrication). 

Guys, this is getting silly... any person that believes a ball bearing can be run dry, contact a mechanical engineer or a person who services systems with ball bearings in it. 

I give up. (by the way, I challenge you to rinse all the lube out of the ball bearings on your car wheels and drive down the freeway). 

Greg


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Posted By Madman on 01/31/2009 3:22 PM
Greg,
LGB specifically stated to me in an email that their ball bearing wheels were not to be lubricated. That doesn't mean that some type of lubricant wasn't used at the factory. But if it was lubed, why do they roll so very freely? 



Dan,

I'll have to agree with you. I'll take that factory and factory tech recommendations any day over some guy that claims he know what he's talking about. Apparently the guys at LGB knew what they were doing when they engineered these bearings.

Not posting to boost my post count...

Regards,
pk


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I had several f the LGB ball bearing wheels start acting up and lots of friction on the bearings. 
I lubed these and the problem was fixed right away. 
I agree with Greg that some lubrication is sometimes necessary, and from that old hair cream ad A little dab will do ya!!!!


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## Chucks_Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

These Aristo BB power pickup wheelsets are way overpriced in my opinion but there really is no alternative.
Accucraft bb power pickup wheelsets are junk...infact on the K4 tenders I swap them out with Aristo's.

One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is that in any other industry routing power thru bearings leads to bearing failure.

Routing power thru a bearing will lead to arcing between the balls & the races but we accept this in large scale.


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## George Schreyer (Jan 16, 2009)

Aristo ball bearing wheels pick up power just fine, but the one set that I have (on a snowplow) don't free roll all that well. However, when the snowplow is carrying a brick, the friction does not increase and then they roll better than standard metal wheels with friction bearings.


All ball and roller bearings need lubrication of some kind. The inner and outer races are not the same diameter and the ball cannot roll on both of them at the same time. It's gotta slide on one of them. Sliding without lubrication will lead to erosion and eventual failure of the balls and/or races.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

PK, you do not have to make a personal comment. LGB says YOU do not have to lubricate the bearings (because they lube them at the factory and you would have to damage the dust shield to lube them). Even madman admits that the statement does not say there was not lubricant at the factory.

I'm saying that all ball bearings need lubrication. So your snotty comment is out of place and wrong.

Some LGB bearings apparently had cardboard "shields" not plastic or metal, and that let moisture in the bearings and caused rust. This has since been improved. (you do know what the dust shield does, right?)


LGB is not necessarily full of engineers and physicists. I'm both. Ball bearings, and friction were not invented by LGB. 


Greg


Posted By pk on 01/31/2009 7:18 PM
Posted By Madman on 01/31/2009 3:22 PM
Greg,
LGB specifically stated to me in an email that their ball bearing wheels were not to be lubricated. That doesn't mean that some type of lubricant wasn't used at the factory. But if it was lubed, why do they roll so very freely? 



Dan,

I'll have to agree with you. I'll take that factory and factory tech recommendations any day over some guy that claims he know what he's talking about. Apparently the guys at LGB knew what they were doing when they engineered these bearings.

Not posting to boost my post count...

Regards,
pk


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## Trains West (Oct 4, 2008)

Greg I think you are thinking too black and white as in it either it conducts or it does not …… all sorts of materials can have dielectric properties and oil and grease is no different ……

At one point you asked me to put the leads of a multi meter into some oil and see if it conducts .. The answer would be of course it will not (I do not even have to try it to know) but the meter is using what a 9 volt battery limited down to 5 volts and the lead spacing in the oil will be like ¼ to ½ inch the current flow to check resistance is next to nothing …. To me that is not a test of real world because who is to say that when that film of oil gets down to the 50 to 70 micron when the ball bearing is under load and 20 volts with a amp of power that it will not start to conduct ……

So no I do not agree that there has to be metal to metal contact 

I looked thru my stuff to see if I had a LGB power pickup wheel set left that I could look at and maybe put a meter across but alas I do not …… I remember years back having rusting problems with the LGB so for my own stuff I went with the JB wheels … though we still sold the LGB ones at the store then after a while people quit complaining about the LGB ones rusting up.. That must have been when they changed the side cover I just never looked that close at them ….. if they are dry as they come from LGB that goes a long ways toward saying that a lot of times the grease does not conduct and that there is no metal to metal contact with grease ………


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Scott: 

1. Dielectric means insulating. Dictionary.com: 1. a nonconducting substance; insulator. Look it up, don't argue with me.

2. Yes all materials CAN have dielectric qualities, i.e. all materials can have insulating qualities. So what? Many materials can have conductive qualities. We are talking specifics, conductivity of grease. 

3. Scott, think for a moment. Your electric motor has a resistance of about 4 ohms. If your partially conducting grease (if you have one) has a resistance over 4 ohms, the motor will not turn. That's why I told you to test with an ohmmeter. If you measure in the megohms then this should become obvious. 

4. You are more on track with a thin coating being somewhat conductive. But it turns out that oil and grease (other than special silver and gold bearing true conductive greases) are EXCELLENT dielectrics, i.e. great insulators. That's why the power transformer outside your house is full of oil. 

The bearings are not dry, no ball bearings can run dry. Why don't you ask a ball bearing company? 

Here, do some reading, and if you think you can run your ball bearings dry, call them and tell them they are full of it, stop arguing with me.

http://www.bearings.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/BDE_6_1/bdemech6_21.aspx

(By the way, these are self-lubricated bearings, not hydrostatic or pressurized bearings) 



When we get done with this "LGB knows everything" and calling greg names, then we can proceed to talk about lubricating films and how electricity flows, and what happens in a ball bearing.

The next step, proving to you that there is actual "point contact", i.e. metal to metal at the ball to the ball bearing race is going to be harder to find references to, but here is one:


http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200616/000020061606A0597428.php

I'm going to post this one too, but you have to really read it to understand, they reference a problem where grease is causing problems because it is insulating the shaft from the bearing, and they have a high electrical buildup on the shaft of the motor. They do talk about greases, conductive greases (which increase wear) and more stuff: *http://www.ien.com/article/preventing-vfdac-drive/7666*
http://www.ien.com/article/preventing-vfdac-drive/7666 
I would suggest you talk to an engineer or physicist to get them to explain how a very small point of contact (necessary to keep friction down, and the very heart of why a ball bearing works) produces very high loads per square inch, and no oil film exists AT THE POINT OF CONTACT, thus metal to metal.

I keep asking you to ask someone who you can believe as an authority. LGB is not an authority, they just told you to leave the bearings alone.

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I have been following this thread with considerable interest. While I do not have figures - or an opinion for that matter - on the conductivity of various lubricants, I DO support Greg in his assertion that ball bearings MUST be lubricated!

Years ago I designed a variable speed traction drive that consisted of two plates separated by a ball bearing carrier. During that exercise I learned the importance of lubrication on the balls. You cannot harden steel enough to take the stresses that occur at the point of contact between the ball and the bearing race. All greases, oils, etc. actually solidify right around the point of contact of the ball due to the intense pressure, thus increasing the effective area of contact and decreasing the exessively high contact pressure. I once tried to run the loaded drive without lubrication and proceeded to put beautiful grooves in the race before everything bound up.

Naturally if we take a lightly loaded ball bearing, or a ball bearing with no load, it will run fine without lubrication. But, load it up, and the lubrication means the difference between running and destruction!

Ed


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

Greg, I was not even addressing you. But now I am.

If you took my comment as snotty, that is your own personal problem. You can just give up the idea that you are right about everything and everyone else is wrong.

Your pretentious titles don't do a thing for me.

Regards,
pk


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## Jim Francis (Dec 29, 2007)

*OK, ENOUGH Already!*

Play nice and no name calling or this thread will be locked! 


Jim Francis, Moderator


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Over the weekend, I was outside next to my snowplow, and I decided to investigate a little bit. I took it off the track, took the brick out, and turned it over. I was mistaken about the rust, I guess. But, trying to turn each wheel, I was rewarded with difficult to turn wheels that felt as though the balls in them were not round. I see no way of adding any lubricant, and don't plan to. I placed said car back on the track, and pushed her a little. It was like she had brakes on. Then, I put the brick back in and pushed. She sailed on down the track, even gliding through some remaining ice. Not sure what that means for the purpose of this discussion, but the bottom line appears to be: if you have a heavy car, that picks up power, these wheels work well. the headlight still lights up on this unit, and there appears to be minimal current draw.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I did some more digging, and another well-respected person with years in the hobby told me that heavy current usage will eventually pit the balls and the races. 

I do have one high current application using Aristo BB wheels, so I will see how long this takes to develop. 

Mark, I suspect you had some rust buildup, and rolling under pressure may have loosened them up, or possibly the wheels are still locked and the axle is turning in the journals. 

Ideally, the axle should not be floating in the journal but held from turning letting the bearings do their job, but I've seen where one or both wheels were locked to the axle and the axle itself was rotating. 

Did you check afterwards to see if the wheels did indeed free themselves from the axle? That information would be interesting. 

Regards, Greg


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg,

After I hand turned each wheel, and one was pretty tough to turn, I put the brick back in, and the car rolled very easily with a gentle push. To me, that means these bearing need some weight on them for best results.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I understand completely, but that seems strange on the surface, doesn't it? It would seem that if something was wrong, more pressure would make it worse? 

That's why I ask (when you get the time) to double check the wheels like you did the first time. Just an idea. 

Regards, Greg


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I would think that the car should have rolled just as easily with or without the brick. Tell s me something not quite right. Needs some PM. later RJD


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## Madman (Jan 5, 2008)

I tend to agree with Marks assumption that more weight allows the car to roll more freely. I cannot think of a good example at the moment, however I have experienced the same properties in other than train related items. It most likely is a matter of physics. A heavier object will go further than a lighter one on the same path. In this case, rails.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Mass will make it roll further, but that is not what I am asking about, when testing the wheels by hand, less load should be less friction on ANY bearing. Out of the box, Aristo and LGB roll freely. 

So, I'm trying to find out if the wheels became more free after running. Mark stated that they were not free at first. 

In terms of momentum, more mass (weight here on earth), will have more momentum (velocity times mass) so given the same frictional losses, the car should roll further. Yep. 

I hope Mark can tell if the wheels loosened up or not. 

Regards, Greg


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## Ward H (Jan 5, 2008)

I did some more digging, and another well-respected person with years in the hobby told me that heavy current usage will eventually pit the balls and the races. 


Greg, I can attest to that. I have the AC BB wheel sets powering my sound box car. At first I ran wires from the box car to my locos to increase power pick up for both the box car and loco. One day I noticed my RS3, which was connected to my box car, was stuttering a bit. I found I had inadvertently switched it from track power to batter power so it was drawing all of its power through the BB wheels on the box car. They did not hold up with that current draw. Of the three wheelsets on the box car, I deemed two to be so rough turning as to be out of service. I didn't take them apart to look at them but since the wheelsets rolled smoothly only a couple of days earlier, I'm pretty certain they were burned pretty good. Since then I don't connect any cars to the loco for additional power pickup.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I apologize if I mentioned this before, but the original ball bearings used in Aristo locos were all metal and picked up current. The current ones are hybrids, with ceramic balls and do not pick up current. Perhaps the potential of pitting/burning was the reason they changed. 

Regards, Greg


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