# LBG Mikado glitching in reverse



## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Noah has talked me into un boxing and running the LGB Mikado Engine. Using LGB/MTS here is the issue I need help with please.

Have to get to 1/2 throttle in forward to get it to move but it runs smoothly in forward direction.

Throttle allot mre sensitive in reverse but engine stops and goes briefly with every 1/2 turn of a drive axle. Only does this at low speed. Like a gear is catching?

I am afraid to tear into it but what the heck....


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, a quick look and I closed it back up! hehe 
It seems to be "glitching" only when backed down the hill... Are these engines just poor on a grade or what? The boys USA F-7 pulls like a champ!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I think one run of Mikes had problems with the gear/gearbox. I know the Aster/LGB Mike ate gearboxes because it used the same gearbox as the "standard" LGB mike and the extra weight was thought to be the culprit. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometmes one wheel slips on the mikado axle and only one side is out of quarter. Also, the motor drives a flex joint and there were 2 types. The old round joint is known to slip and is used in several places. This will make both sides go out of quarter. If not running smooth, then check carefully else a side rod will soon break!!!!!


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

the side rods do not match from one side to the other, is this an indication of slippage? How do I fix?


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

John, 
The side rods should be a quarter turn from being the same. When the rods are up on one side, (TDC... top dead center) they should be down at axle level on the other side. 
When a steam engine started at least one steam chamber would be open for steam and thus could start the engine. If both sides were the same, it's possible that no steam could get to a piston. 
That's why the term Quarter is used, when it's out of quarter on one axle the side rods won't be straight where the wheel has slipped. The Main rod from the cylinder can show an angle where it connects to the side rods, but the side rods that connect 4 drivers should be in a straight line. 

Hope this helps. 

John


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Hello John,

The Gear Cover can identify which version of drive unit you have:











This is the 1st Generation











This is the 2nd Generation












Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks Jerry! Mine has 1 of each! lol the front is new and the rear is older style... 

what now?


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

John, 

First: LGB engines with sound only start around half throttle due to building voltage to run the sound system. That's normal. 

Also, you're saying it only happens downhill? How steep of a downhill? Does it change with different loads? 
Locos tend to surge on downhills--gravity forces the engine ahead and it bounces off the gear teeth--sort of like alternately pushing the engine, then powering it forward, gear tooth to gear tooth. I had that issue with my 4-6-0 at Ric's.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

yes Robbie this is what I think it is doing. Does not pull more than 6 cars up this grade and I do not want to load it down in case it causes gear slippage or wheel spin on axle etc. 
NOW, when I gain speed down hill, it goes away.... gravity forces the engine ahead and it bounces off the gear teeth-- seems to be a logical answer?


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## gtrainman (Jan 5, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jun 2011 10:02 AM 
Thanks Jerry! Mine has 1 of each! lol the front is new and the rear is older style... 

what now? 
The front shaft never changed, only the motor end changed styles.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

from new to old style? Does it make sense that the motor end (rear) of mine is older style?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jun 2011 10:02 AM 

what now? 

Hi John,

I have to leave the "what now?" to others to answer. Robbie and Gtrainman should be good sources of information for you.

Knowing about the potential weakness of the 1st generation drive units I was looking forward to free replacements when mine failed but my LGB Mikados never failed - and then LGB went bankrupt. I have never taken any of my Mikes apart so I know nothing about repairing them. I also run my Mikes on a perfectly flat layout with no more than 6 passenger or 10 freight cars which combined with very limited running time should result in them lasting forever.

On the other hand a friend had one of the very first Mikes which failed and LGBoA replaced the drive system plus gave him a free boxcar for his problems. He has since put well over 1,000 hours on it without any problems. I would expect that once you get yours sorted out you will have many years of excellent service out of it.

Jerry


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

When looking at side rods, think of a clock and the 12 o'clock vs 9 or 3 o'clock positions of the hands. This is how each side should be aligned, 90 degrees apart, thus a QUARTER of a circle.


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jun 2011 02:55 PM 
from new to old style? Does it make sense that the motor end (rear) of mine is older style? 

As Gtrainman said "The front shaft never changed, only the motor end changed styles."


I looked at all 3 of my replacement sets and they all have the short tab gear covers in front and long tab gear covers in the rear. 

I don't know exactly what LGB replaced when they upgraded the drive system so it is possible they only replaced the rear drivers but since the replacement (used 1st generation) sets I bought came complete with both front and rear drivers, I suspect they replaced both front and rear.

At least this topic got me to look at the drivers of my White Pass (Aster) Mike and I was pleasantly surprised to find that it has short tabs in front and rear suggesting that it was upgraded to the 2nd generation before I bought it (used). Even so, I don't run it. It cost too much for me to risk damage to it and although it is used I like it as a display model.

It sounds to me that you have a Mikado with the 1st generation drive system which does not mean that it has failed or that it will fail. Still, if it were mine I would not pull heavy loads with it as I have no idea if you could buy a replacement drive system for it or how much it might cost.

By comparison, the friend with the LGB Mike recently bought a new Pacific and its drivers start slipping at 9 boxcars and caboose on a flat track. With traction tires the LGB Mike can pull a lot more without slipping but why push your luck? I think the LGB Mikado is a great locomotive but if I was going to pull heavy loads I would look for one that has the 2nd generation drive system.

Perhaps someone out there can figure out a way to replace that plastic collar that mates with the motor shaft gear with a tougher one.

Jerry


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 07 Jun 2011 11:29 AM 
yes Robbie this is what I think it is doing. Does not pull more than 6 cars up this grade and I do not want to load it down in case it causes gear slippage or wheel spin on axle etc. 
NOW, when I gain speed down hill, it goes away.... gravity forces the engine ahead and it bounces off the gear teeth-- seems to be a logical answer? 
Precisely.

I've never figured out a true "fix" for it--you could try somehow holding it back by somehow increasing friction in the tender axles or something, but that just seems really gimmicky. I just live with it; after all, it's a 1995 vintage Bachmann 4-6-0 that I have issues with, it's not like I'll be out an LGB 2-6-0 or Mikado if something goes wrong.

I wouldn't worry about the wheel slipping on the axle. The only locos I've ever heard of that having problems with were Aristo Mikados/Mallets (Aristo uses a cone-shaped axle with a wheel pressed onto it, wheel slips outward, spins on axle) and USA Big Boys (Ray Manley had some issues with this, but I've never heard of anyone else having them). I figure if my LGB 2-6-0s can haul 20 cars solo without any problems, LGB's method of attaching the drivers has to be just about as solid as possible. I won't talk about gear slippage though, as I have no experience with LGB Mikados and don't know exactly what their insides look like (beyond the photos above).


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

The only parts diagrams I have include the new drive system. As it shows, both front and rear drive units are linked by a (female to female) shaft that slides over a gear from the other drive unit.

The LGB wheels are pressed onto the axles and while I cannot say they have never slipped on anyone's LGB loco, I have never heard of any of them slipping. On the other hand I have experienced an occasional Mogul gear jumping out of time - usually when the train is running at speed and for some reason power quits suddenly causing the trailing cars to suddenly give the loco a hard shove from behind. The traction tires on the Moguls probably contribute to the problem by resisting the ability of the Mogul to slide forward.

I don't have enough experience (running time while pulling a heavy load) with the LGB Mikados to know if such gear jumping can be a problem with the LGB Mikados.

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...872P-1.PDF

Considering the cost and availability of parts I would try to minimize the problem by reducing the load the problematic Mike is pulling. 

Most of the people I was aware of who knew the most about LGB locos seem to have left the forums long ago - probably due to the strong anti-LGB attitudes expressed by some on those forums.

If you continue to have problems with your LGB Mikado, you may want to check with Klaus Stork, Train-Li or Walthers (current LGB importer) who may be additional sources of parts, service and information.

Jerry


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## markoles (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a lot of play in the drive train of the LGB mikado. I have one of the first generation units and the star drive shown above did fail. LGBoA did replace it with teh knuckle drive, but I didn't get a free boxcar for my trouble. How steep of a grade are you running?! I thought I had steep grades, and I did. Still, that mikado was good for about 15 freight cars. 

If it runs OK going forward, but not backward, that's strange. Did you try running it on straight DC without the MTS, etc? I used MTS a few times, and I seem to recall the locomotive would occassionally do that herky jerky run, but it was related to the decoder losing signal from the base station. I would think that when the drive train is out of sync, you'd get a bind in the drivers forward or backward. Again, it would have to be pretty far out of sync, and really, the one two that need to be sync'd are the front and rear driver. The two center drivers do not have gears, and just go along for the ride.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

A Mikado drive wheel will slip!!! I have fixed several of these. 

DO NOT PULL big loads with any Mikado!!! When the wheel slips on the axle, side rods break and to date there are no spares available!! 

Problem with the Mikado wheels is the axle has very little short grooves for holding the wheel in place and the plastic will give especially on a traction tired wheel.


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

YES! this happened to a friend of mine. I actually had some perfect match alluminum side rods made. Never used them cuz I think it would cause worse problems if slipped again etc. Silvergate sent me a complete motor block for a Mikado once and I gave it to him. HHHHHMHMMMM maybe I should retrieve it?


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## Pterosaur (May 6, 2008)

So I checked, my only Mike has the newer motor blocks...Reliable? Worth keeping for the long run? Mine has a few minor broken/repaired trim pieces but beyond that seams to perform well. Maybe I should sell it and get a Bachmann 0-6-6-0 or Forney?


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Pterosaur on 09 Jun 2011 08:54 AM 
So I checked, my only Mike has the newer motor blocks...Reliable? Worth keeping for the long run? Mine has a few minor broken/repaired trim pieces but beyond that seams to perform well. Maybe I should sell it and get a Bachmann 0-6-6-0 or Forney? 

Everyone tends to have different opinions about different brands and models. In my case my LGB Mikados would be among the very last locos I would ever sell. On the negative side is the fact that replacement parts could be difficult to find.

I agree with Dan "DO NOT PULL big loads with any Mikado!!!"

If pulling big loads is your thing then perhaps you should sell it but if you have it and you enjoy it why not keep it if you are not pulling heavy loads and it runs well?

If Marklin brings the Mikado back into production the parts situation should get a lot better.

As I mentioned, I have not run my Mikes that much (but I really enjoy them when I do run them). I am not in a position to say whether others have or have not had many problems with parts breaking while running them.

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

My Mikado is my favorite engine. non-decoder/analog with sound. If I can't convert to Aristo Revo R/C and keep the sound.... I might as well sell it. Nothing has "slipped" low miles (xmas train) and it appears my grade is just too steep because it runs perfect on flatland. 
NOW.... Has ANYONE converted LGB engines with sound to Revo R/C and were able to keep the exact OE sound? chuffs etc.? 
I also have a Brand New Mogul that is MTS digital with sound that I want to convert also..... 

I am only using the LGB/MTS system in the basement currently and will be donating it to the Church soon for our 2nd layout.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

It's probably possible John, but might take some sort of filtering from the motor output to drive the oem sound card. You can try the unit they use for the Sierra sound boards, I believe Aristo sells one, and Tony Walsham does, and there's circuit diagrams for it if you feel adventurous. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry McColgan (Feb 8, 2008)

Posted By Biblegrove RR on 09 Jun 2011 10:44 AM 
My Mikado is my favorite engine. non-decoder/analog with sound. If I can't convert to Aristo Revo R/C and keep the sound.... I might as well sell it. Nothing has "slipped" low miles (xmas train) and it appears my grade is just too steep because it runs perfect on flatland. 
NOW.... Has ANYONE converted LGB engines with sound to Revo R/C and were able to keep the exact OE sound? chuffs etc.? 
I also have a Brand New Mogul that is MTS digital with sound that I want to convert also..... 

I am only using the LGB/MTS system in the basement currently and will be donating it to the Church soon for our 2nd layout. 

I have not converted any LGB locos and sound systems to the Revolution but I have converted a spare LGB Mikado sound system to work in my Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado with the LGB sound system being powered by batteries. The important thing is that the LGB sound system chuff depends on the hall effect sensors that the LGB Mikados and LGB Moguls (if equipped with factory LGB sound systems) come with. I have never been successful running those LGB sound systems with anything other than the LGB hall effect sensors.

If all you want is the chuff, bell and whistle I would think you _might_ be able to make them work with the Revolution BUT I would be concerned that it might not work both because of the PWC put out by the Revolution plus the way the Revolution activates the bell and whistle. The Ariso-Craft PWC adapter might fix the voltage powering the sound board and you could stick with track magnets to activate the bell and whistle.

By now there is a good chance that someone has come up with a successful way of getting full functions out of a LGB Mikado with the Revolution. I think Stan may have converted a few Moguls.

You mentioned non-decoder/analog with sound. As far as I know all Mikados came with decoders. One of my Mikes did not run right and it turned out to be a problem with the decoder. If your Mike has a decoder you might see how it runs with the decoder removed (you will probably need to change the DIP switch settings). I never ran any of mine without a decoder but I would guess that the instructions show how to set the DIP switches without a decoder.

Good luck,

Jerry


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## Biblegrove RR (Jan 4, 2008)

It does not have a decoder. I have an extra decoder, but not installed.... I just run the Mike in analog mode. the humming is annoying at 1st but you get used to it. Would absulutely hate to convert to R/C and not use the factory sound but.... oh well. Maybe the NEW Aristo Revo sound units can do it justice?


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The new Aristo unit is not bad, did you catch my video of it playing? 

It's definitely going to be popular. It might be your simplest solution. 

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

At Train-Li we figured out how to trigger LGB hall effect sound using a standard reed switch. Have done this with the very old Moguls and newer diesel digital sound units.


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