# Issues with other manufacturers on LGB turnouts



## KentS (Jun 21, 2021)

Hello all. Newbie turnout question here. I am looking into getting a few turnouts for my outdoor brass 332 railroad. I have a variety of new Piko and USA Trains and some older Aristo. People generally seem to like LGB products but in the LGB manual for turnouts it has this paragraph:

"Important! LGB turnouts are designed for the wheels on LGB locomotives and cars. If you use other makes of locomotives and/or cars, they may derail when running through LGB turnouts."

Is this just LGB being cautious and do their R3 turnouts generally work well with Piko, USA Trains and Aristo cars and locos?

Thank you.

Kent


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the issues I have seen is the USA Trains sliders are a bit different than the LGB sliders/shoes and can catch on the frog. I have changed them to LGB shoes (63218) and problem was gone.


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## kormsen (Oct 27, 2009)

KentS said:


> ... but in the LGB manual for turnouts it has this paragraph:
> 
> "Important! LGB turnouts are designed for the wheels on LGB locomotives and cars. If you use other makes of locomotives and/or cars, they may derail when running through LGB turnouts."


when LGB started in 1968, there was just one other model railroad in 45mm gauge. (as far, as i know)
that was "Marklin Maxi" (scale 1:32) with much smaller rails and much finer wheels.
the Maxi stuff tended to "fall" into the frogs of LGB turnouts.
i always thought, that was the reason for the warning.


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## MGates (Mar 16, 2016)

The LGB flangeways are pretty large. This causes point picking of the frog when some other wheel profiles are used. Not a uncommon issue in my experience, I have had quite a few customers mention that their equipment occasionally picks the point on an LGB turnout when inquiring if my turnouts would do the same.

Generally you don't have many issues when using non-LGB brand rolling stock on LGB turnouts, but the point picking issue is prevalent enough that it would be smart to test each car and loco several times though the frog and either not run the problematic items on the line or adjust the back-to-back wheel spacing more narrow to miss the frog point.

Best,
Mike


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually the key is that the LGB turnout with LGB cars was originally designed to be a "flange bearing" frog. That means that the wheel does not ride on it's tread through the frog, but on the flange. This requires matching between flange depth on the wheel and the depth of the flangeway on the frog.

I also run Z scale and that is what Marklin did.

There are a number of advantages to doing this, but it wants all wheels to be the same. One design is to put metal strips in the bottom of the flangeway, so the wheels (metal ones) can continue to pick up power through the frog. It's actually a clever idea to supply power through a frog, but it has it's limitations overall.

Clearly this is advantageous for short wheelbase locos with limited power pickup.

Greg

p.s. there is more to the story, the gauge specs, the wider flangeways, guard rail dimensions, but that is getting pretty involved.


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Let's just say that the LGB R3 turnouts are better, last longer, and cars track better through them, than many of their competitors including the 10' diameter AristoCraft turnouts.


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## BubbaPompano (Sep 14, 2021)

As a fellow Newbie, I have had excellent luck purchasing used LGB track but have gotten burned on every used Turn-out that I have purchased. Everyone of them acts finicky - which is why they were likely listed.
Not sure if anyone else has had this experience but I will never buy a used Turn-out again off the Internet.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

With modifications, virtually *any *turnout can be made to work well. My Aristo 10' diameter work better and smoother than the LGB R3, since I corrected guard rail flangway widths, and matched the points to the stock rails, and lowered frogs.

Can't argue with this: (I have left it running 5 hours at a time) (several WR switches in diverging route)


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## KentS (Jun 21, 2021)

Thank you all for your insights. It does not sound like a chronic problem anyway. If I have a car or two with issues out of my 20 cars, I can handle that. Thank you Bubba ... I was planning to buy new turnouts for that very reason. I bought a caboose on ebay that feeds from track power and it likes to pop 10 amp fuses. 

This may be a loaded question, but are there 332 brass turnouts out there that you would recommend over LGB? FYI - I have 11 tie per foot spacing and am not looking to spend big bucks on custom turnouts.

Thank you.

Kent


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I have found that LGB turnouts need to be on a perfectly flat surface for smooth operation with the EPL drives added. And for good power pickups, the sliding rails get power from 2 places, the screw that turns with the points and the silver bar the rails slide on.


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Dan Pierce said:


> One of the issues I have seen is the USA Trains sliders are a bit different than the LGB sliders/shoes and can catch on the frog. I have changed them to LGB shoes (63218) and problem was gone.


Interesting fix, Dan. I'll keep that one in mind. My USAT SD40-2 and GP30 shoes were catching on my LGB R3 and R5 frogs. I found that the USAT shoes just needed to be re-bent a little bit, as they were not a perfect "L". They also needed a little bending front to back as they were not perfectly square either. Now they run smooth as butter through all of my turnouts with no catching at all.

I haven't had too many problems with my LGB R3/R5 turnouts. If anything, they've highlighted issues with some of my locomotives/rolling stock. For example, the slider shoes on my PIKO were manufactured wide, so periodically it would short out at the frog of a turnout. So I just had to grind a little bit bit material from the slider shoes to skinny them up a bit. My SD40-2 was picking one of the R5 points, but it's was because the pivoting axle on the front of the 3 axle truck wasn't moving/sliding around as free as it should've been. Got it lubricated/freed up and it has gone hundreds if not thousands of times through that turnout with no problems since. So as stated, other than issues with the train itself, I have no significant issues to speak of with the turnouts themselves. Out of the box, they maybe just need a little bit of filing to smooth out the points where they meet the stockrails. I have four R3's on the inner loop that the mainline runs through and two R5's and one R3 on the mainline of the outer loop. I run for hours and hours at a time and I have a mix of LGB, USA Trains, Aristocraft, PIKO, Bachmann, locomotives and rolling stock.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The width of sliders has always been an issue, wider keeps them on the rails more and helps to not hang up on things, but wider will also short out some frogs. Some people go wider and then put some extra insulation on the ends of the rail heads in the frog. This is normally fingernail lacquer, but now you have another maintenance issue, and are hurting short wheelbase locos.

Many people find a balance... my balance is remove them ha ha!


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> The width of sliders has always been an issue, wider keeps them on the rails more and helps to not hang up on things, but wider will also short out some frogs. Some people go wider and then put some extra insulation on the ends of the rail heads in the frog. This is normally fingernail lacquer, but now you have another maintenance issue, and are hurting short wheelbase locos.
> 
> Many people find a balance... my balance is remove them ha ha!


You're right - and for my operations (with brass track) I like having the sliders as I have to clean the track much less often (since power pickup is MUCH improved). I especially love USAT power pickup, since you get pickup from 8 wheels PLUS 4 sliders! With sliders, I can go many weeks (depending on the time of year) without having to clean the track. Having the sliders helps knock some of the crud off the track too. So for me, making them work is important. But anyways, your mileage may vary, as they say!


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> With modifications, virtually *any *turnout can be made to work well. My Aristo 10' diameter work better and smoother than the LGB R3, since I corrected guard rail flangway widths, and matched the points to the stock rails, and lowered frogs.
> 
> Can't argue with this: (I have left it running 5 hours at a time) (several WR switches in diverging route)


That consist is following that caboose way too close! HA HA


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## toddalin (Jan 4, 2008)

Dan Pierce said:


> I have found that LGB turnouts need to be on a perfectly flat surface for smooth operation with the EPL drives added. And for good power pickups, the sliding rails get power from 2 places, the screw that turns with the points and the silver bar the rails slide on.


Not good enough and will eventually fail. For reliability one must solder jumper wires between the stock rails and the point rails. Any "physical contact" is just a failure waiting to happen.

As for tracking, I add a "rail shim" (my own idea) that pins the outter wheels in place to keep the trains from derailing. My heavyweights will not run through AristoCraft 10' diameter turnouts without these in place, partially because I tried to lower the flangeway so the wheels don't ride up (they need too). I also use them on the back-to-back LGB 8' diameter turnouts to keep the heavyweights from derailing there too.

BTW, contrary to George's write-up, it had nothing to do with a bad flangeway and the turnouts were new when George photograghed my shim. It was all about alleviating derailments which it does quite nicely.










LGB 1600 tips


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

toddalin said:


> Not good enough and will eventually fail. For reliability one must solder jumper wires between the stock rails and the point rails. Any "physical contact" is just a failure waiting to happen.
> 
> As for tracking, I add a "rail shim" (my own idea) that pins the outter wheels in place to keep the trains from derailing. My heavyweights will not run through AristoCraft 10' diameter turnouts without these in place, partially because I tried to lower the flangeway so the wheels don't ride up (they need too). I also use them on the back-to-back LGB 8' diameter turnouts to keep the heavyweights from derailing there too.
> 
> ...


Good method, but the shim doesn't work in all cases. I shimmed my check rail flangeway as you did and it actually induced issues for me. Ended up removing the shim! Once again, your mileage may vary! 

Also, if the check rail gets beat up (as mentioned on George Schreyer's site), I suspect it can be smoothed back out with light touches of the tip of a soldering iron (to lightly melt the plastic back in place). Careful with this though! I have repaired thinner broken LGB check rails successfully by lightly melting the plastic with the tip of a soldering iron. I don't see why it wouldn't be a suitable method for resmoothing the check rails surface after it is roughed/beat up from being hit by wheels.


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## preprius (Oct 7, 2021)

*Are these tips suggestion valid for new LGB switches? Did LGB address these issues in the last 10 years?*


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No changes in 10 years.

"improving" turnouts also needs proper wheel gauge and most importantly back to back.

If you improve the switch, without setting proper back to back, wasted effort.

It's a system, all the specifications work together... track and wheel

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

On another note for power pickups on small engines, I add a car behind these engines with power pickups feeding the engine. My LGB engine/powered tenders run great with the power cable between the 2 units. I do this with my LGB track cleaner loco with a training power pickup car also.


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## NorthwestGarrattGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

this is of concern since i use LGB turnouts and i have no locomotives or rolling stock from LGB


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

NorthwestGarrattGuy said:


> this is of concern since i use LGB turnouts and i have no locomotives or rolling stock from LGB


You will be fine. The discussion is about making difficult rolling stock (e.g. Aristo Heavyweights) go thru the switches 100% reliably. Modern Piko or Bachmann stock shouldn't have a problem.


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## NorthwestGarrattGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

Pete Thornton said:


> You will be fine. The discussion is about making difficult rolling stock (e.g. Aristo Heavyweights) go thru the switches 100% reliably. Modern Piko or Bachmann stock shouldn't have a problem.


ok but i have some stuff with bad gauging and it has derailed a bit on my siding


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

NorthwestGarrattGuy said:


> this is of concern since i use LGB turnouts and i have no locomotives or rolling stock from LGB


Read above. I mostly run non-LGB locomotives and rolling stock. The minor issues I've had, I've been able to tweak and sort out. I personally have had far fewer issues with compatibility with LGB turnouts than I did with aristocraft turnouts.

Case in point.... yesterday I ran my PIKO 2-6-0 saddletank with two LGB gondolas (bachmann metal wheels on them), three bachmann gondolas (also with bachmann metal wheels), and a bachmann bobber caboose for about 5 hours. It was run around my complete circuit which also includes this crazy crossover (pic below), so it passed through every single turnout in my layout (8 turnouts and both ways over the crossover). I had an issue on the first pass with one turnout (ballast had settled and it was unlevel), so I re-levelled it and it ran 5 hours reliably with NO further issues at all. Sometimes when reading online, the context is sometimes lost and it often seems like the issues are more widespread than they actually are.


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

NorthwestGarrattGuy said:


> ok but i have some stuff with bad gauging and it has derailed a bit on my siding


Many wheelsets are able to be re-gauged. What wheelsets are you running?


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## NorthwestGarrattGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

jordanhd87 said:


> Many wheelsets are able to be re-gauged. What wheelsets are you running?


well these ones are cheap new ray and eztec ones


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

So they must also be plastic... metal wheels please, just do it, really.


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> So they must also be plastic... metal wheels please, just do it, really.


I wasn't going to go there (as there are a ton of topics on wheels, and it almost always turns into a debate), but yes I 100% agree with Greg. I've had good luck with USA trains metal wheels. Bachmann metal wheels are not quite as good, but are satisfactory (still lightyears better than plastic). Make the switch if you can!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Will make a big difference in keeping on the rails... it's been proven over and over.

This is one of those "don't make yourself crazy" things... .Bachmann wheels are usually the cheapest alternative, they are reasonable in quality. Aristo wheels used to be the sort of standard, very nice quality and finish and available at a discount if in quantity, but hard to get now.

Buying used can be a crap shoot, hard to tell if they have been damaged before buying.

Greg


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## Pete Thornton (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Aristo wheels used to be the sort of standard,


But they can fall apart, so I would avoid them. USA Trains wheels, or Al Kramer's (ana.kramer on eBay) Roll-EZ.
(The BEST G Scale Roll-EZ Black Metal Wheels - 2 Pairs - 4 Axles - Fits LGB NEW | eBay)


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I've never had an Aristo metal wheelset fall apart, the new ones, you must be referring to the ancient ones with the plastic half axles joined with a metal rod. 

The ones that were sold by the bag of 50 or so are rugged, well machined and never fall apart, unlike the cheap Bachmann ones, and they don't rust like the sintered steel ones from AML for example.

Greg


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I've never had an Aristo metal wheelset fall apart, the new ones, you must be referring to the ancient ones with the plastic half axles joined with a metal rod.
> 
> The ones that were sold by the bag of 50 or so are rugged, well machined and never fall apart, unlike the cheap Bachmann ones, and they don't rust like the sintered steel ones from AML for example.
> 
> Greg


Greg, you beat me to it. These later style Aristo ones pictured are rugged/nicely made. Not the blackened unobtainium/unknown metal alloy ones with the fragile plastic axle sleeves (I agree are problematic, but can be repaired to work well).

Good aristo wheels:


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I swap out the "split" ones as soon as I can. 

Pete, I think you have been playing with stuff that is too old ha ha! 

These are the ones that many people were buying like candy from Aristo:


https://www.rldhobbies.com/cre-29111b.aspx



Unfortunately hard to find now... but many other makers...

The ones from Al Kramer are pretty good:








The BEST G Scale Roll-EZ Black Metal Wheels - 2 Pairs - 4 Axles - Fits LGB NEW | eBay


The finest G-Scale wheels made. Solid BRASS and then coated black. They have STAINLESS STEEL AXLES so they cannot rust and they are double insulated. 1-1/8 TIRE, 1-3/8 FLANGE. These fit all USA Trains, all Bachmann standard length cars, all Aristo-Craft standard cars, all LGB, all Hartland, all...



www.ebay.com






Greg


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## jordanhd87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Greg Elmassian said:


> I swap out the "split" ones as soon as I can.
> 
> Pete, I think you have been playing with stuff that is too old ha ha!
> 
> ...


Those Al Kramer ones look darn near identical (if not identical) to USAT's blackened wheelsets. Do they come from the same manufacturing plant? FYI USAT's wheels are cheaper than Al Kramer's (about $21 or $22 per set of 4 axles). I'm a big fan of USAT's wheels. They run true (no wobbling, unlike Bachmann), have the right amount of heft to them (heavier than Bachmann), and as such roll very smoothly. Flange depth is good to be forgiving of imperfect trackwork, and rolls well through all of my LGB turnouts. I've also noticed the Bachmann flanges tend to squeak around curves at times (with the material/coating they use). I have not noticed any squeaking with USAT's wheels.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No they are different. I have not purchased the Al Kramer ones, don't know if the axle is SS or steel. Yes, the USAT axles are reasonable in price now, they are my preferred replacement.

To save money many people will get the Bachmann, but I've had my share of wobbly wheels, and the wheels are cast, not machined. The finish does not compare to the USAT ones.

I think we are in violent agreement.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I also like the USA Trains wheels/axle sets. At the shows in the Northeast you can get 10 pair for a nice price!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Pretty sure RLD hobbies often has these. I buy them and the occasional bag of Aristo as they come up.


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## woodysalsam (Jul 24, 2020)

kormsen said:


> when LGB started in 1968, there was just one other model railroad in 45mm gauge. (as far, as i know)
> that was "Marklin Maxi" (scale 1:32) with much smaller rails and much finer wheels.
> the Maxi stuff tended to "fall" into the frogs of LGB turnouts.
> i always thought, that was the reason for the warning.


You answered my question. My Maxi 1 diving into the frog.


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## steveriver44 (May 1, 2018)

Greg Elmassian said:


> With modifications, virtually *any *turnout can be made to work well. My Aristo 10' diameter work better and smoother than the LGB R3, since I corrected guard rail flangway widths, and matched the points to the stock rails, and lowered frogs.
> 
> Can't argue with this: (I have left it running 5 hours at a time) (several WR switches in diverging route)


Greg; I am installing 6 new 10 ft Arita switched and would like to TUNE them up before installation. My knees are too old to do it more than once. Could you post the instructions or somehow get me a diagram? Thanks, interesting article!
Steve


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

There are over 750 pages on my web site.

The link to my site is in my signature.

Go to LS Trains, then Track and Switches, and where ever you want to go from there.

It's all organized.

I'll make it easy this time:




__





Aristo Wide Radius Switches


Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers




elmassian.com





But there are 749 OTHER pages of information too... and the search function works also.

Greg


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## woodysalsam (Jul 24, 2020)

KentS said:


> Hello all. Newbie turnout question here. I am looking into getting a few turnouts for my outdoor brass 332 railroad. I have a variety of new Piko and USA Trains and some older Aristo. People generally seem to like LGB products but in the LGB manual for turnouts it has this paragraph:
> 
> "Important! LGB turnouts are designed for the wheels on LGB locomotives and cars. If you use other makes of locomotives and/or cars, they may derail when running through LGB turnouts."
> 
> ...


FYI. The two issues with other manufacturers is (1) Marklin Maxi pick ups too short. Solder longer shoes to shorts and goes thru LGB 1600 and 1800. (2) Aristocraft remake of Delton 2-8-0, the pilots won pass thru. Mine is now an0-8-0 and works fine. Just in passing.


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