# I heard something about the Denver show layouts??



## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

I was at the CIGRS club meeting Sat and two folks told me , when they was on the layout tours in Denver that every single battery powered layout had troubles and all track powered layouts ran fine???
I was shocked , its usually the other way around.
any others see this?

These were track powered folks who said this ...


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,

You know track power rules!!


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty,

AND your surprised you heard this from "track-powered" people???!!


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## RandyBryie (Jan 2, 2008)

I was at one layout south of Denver where the battery power layout had become a static layout due to some sort of failure. Since they had not performed the installation, they were not sure of what to do to fix the problem. They were hoping someone from the club would arrive soon to help get things going again! Saying "ALL" of them had problems might be a stretch ot the truth. Of couse I also saw some track powered layouts that had sections that needed continous cleaning. While others ran perfectly fine! Probably just the law of averages.
Randy


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Let me categorically state that, on Thursday and Friday, I only actually witnessed two battery powered engines that had "expired". By that I mean that they needed recharging after having run for hours. There were other engines that picked up the slack. I never saw a problem with any track powered layout. Everything was running pretty smoothly when we were there. Take it for what it's worth.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Hah! yada yada!! So once again we have battery power people who like der battery power, and we have track powered people who like der track power. Like DCC/DC/DCS, run whatever ya likes and be done with it. I have all three and run what I wants to run when I wants to run It! No big deal. You might say " all have der advantages, and der disadvantages" right. So what's the flap???? Hah LOL 

No serious comebacks or backlashes please, I only speakith the truth, as I have experienced it and I am the only one who takith myself seriously so you shouldn't!!! K? nuff said The Regal 

Too much seriousness in dis hobby me thinks!! Play trains however and have yerselves some fun!! "Whatever works fer ya or floats yer boat"


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

I had two large open house days this summer: One for the public and one for the Denver convention. In both cases I ran G-Scale Graphics battery power (Enhanced RailBoss R/C). First train out at 9:30 am, off at 1:00 pm (still running fine). Second train; 1:00 to about 5:30pm (still running fine). I am pleased to say that we didn't have problem 1 both days. The trains ran all day, making random station stops. And I spent the whole day telling folks that the train only stops at the station if there are passengers waiting or freight to be unloaded







. (The first thing they always try to figure out is how it works, and this baffles them).


In previous years, running on track power,same open house, the trains would usually start jerking around and stalling out about 11:00 am. Dirty track; embarrassing, but fairly easy to fix. Dirty wheels and track pickups? Your out of the game!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

At the last convention in Phoenix, even the million dollar layout of Dennis Serrine had to switch from battery to track power. 

For continuous running, it's clear that battery can be exhausted. 

One thing though, track getting dirty after more running? That is not my experience unless you have a dust storm. Track gets cleaner from running. I don not agree here Del, and have not experienced track getting worse unless something else is happening. 

Ahh.. the old track vs. battery fight. 

No one will win this one. 

Greg


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Like I say , I'm not making an issue just was surprised when both said "ALL". 
Thanks, wish i could visit more open houses.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Aug 2009 09:35 AM 

One thing though, track getting dirty after more running? That is not my experience unless you have a dust storm. Track gets cleaner from running. I don not agree here Del, and have not experienced track getting worse unless something else is happening. 

That's right Greg ... I am just making up the problems I have experienced here on MY layout for the past 10 years in order to promote battery power.







Perhaps my environment is a bit different than yours? Maybe I run different locos? I am pleased with my decision to run battery power, as I am sure you are with track power.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Um Greg? 
Some people still use the plastic wheels and they are known to make rails dirtier. 

Some wheels arc and leave crud behind.... 

I have experienced low-conductive Stainless (2 two foot sections of straight) and tho' I've mentioned it, it doesn't seem to have happened to anybody else. Doesn't make it any less real to me. 

Where does the plating that wears of wheels go? Is it stickier to dirt than the rail? I assume it transfers to the rail. 

Does your high voltage burn through dirt others might encounter? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Gentlemen; ......Might be best if we just said 'From my experience........' and then expound.... lol 

Boys; ...............My toys are better than yours! An age old puffing of egos! Neener neener!!!! 

Oh the Irony of Ironies... 

We want USA precision made tool quality at Chinese toy prices.... we get chinese 'quality' fade...late comers get less quality for the same dollars... 

your miliage may vary. 

John


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

SEE
I was simply asking THOSE who was able to go THIS year to see the layouts, did there seem to be a problem?
THIS YEAR AT DENVER.


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## pimanjc (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw one battery powered layout with a problem.... derail that put loco/tender in the water... then it didn't work. Another loco [w/o sound] quickly replaced the first and running continued. 

One new layout using track power had a problem, and all trains were static. 

I guess what you saw depended on where, and what time of day you got to the layouts. 

I have run open house events on all track power, track power & Battery, and all battery. On one occasion, I was using track power & battery. A derail shorted across the rails and blew the power supply. I finished the day on battery power. Usually, for an 7hr event, running one line on track, the other line on battery works best for me. That way, I don't risk running out of battey w/o recharging before the end of the day.

JimC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I was objecting to a blanket statement that all track power fails after running a while. 

It's different for everyone, but a blanket statement that track power always gets worse after running a while is not correct for everyone. Yes plastic wheels, dust storms, plagues of locusts, yes, I agree. 

Just a blanket statement that track power fails after running a while is not right. 

I can make a blanket statement that batteries will eventually run down, which is true, but many people have batteries that run hours and hours, so it would be unfair of me to say all battery power quits by 11am. 

Del, I did not mean to dispute your layout, or your personal experience on your layout. I see that I was not clear so I apologize.

I dispute blanket statements like "power system A is always better". or "track power quits at 11am" 


Greg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Musings of an old man.. 

I edited my post and removed 'blanket statement'... Del said 'usually'... not a heavy blanket, you said 'can' also less than absolute. 

Batteries can go down, but they don't have to. See IPTrains floating battery. 

After seeing the wiring for an automatic reversing loop, (another thread) I'm glad I don't have to go there. I solved it with a spring switch... 

have a great day 

John 



John


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

Marty, I visited about 45 layouts in 5 days and only seen one layout that had a problem. The guy never even bothered to run a train, just a static display. Someone mentioned that the owner had lost interest in trains.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Aug 2009 09:35 AM 
At the last convention in Phoenix, even the million dollar layout of Dennis Serrine had to switch from battery to track power. 

SNIP
Greg 

Was that not down to failures of the battery packs? As I understand it there were something like 200 packs returned to the (well known) battery supplier.

It is hardly fair to claim the concept of battery power is is incapable of sustained running based solely on the (alleged) failure of a battery product.
There is at least one circuit available that allows for extended running times of battery powered locos by simply plugging in auxiliary batteries to augment those carried on board a loco.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you Jim 
I wish we had even 45 layouts in a two state area. That I know of in my oppion only. Blanket with holes. 
I'm not worried about it. The other club is growing and thats the important thing. 
I was VERY happy to see this 26 year old mixed scale club have lots of new younger members with kids who came to the pinic. 70 plus folks.
Very good.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony: how about the complete thought: 

"At the last convention in Phoenix, even the million dollar layout of Dennis Serrine had to switch from battery to track power. 

For continuous running, it's clear that battery can be exhausted. " 

Dennis could not run all day for the convention and stay on battery. No this was not because of defective packs. Yes he did have defective packs. 

He was running very long trains, passenger trains with USAT lighted cars, etc. 

He was trying to run all day... did not have the capacity to do it. 

Is it feasible? Sure, never said it was not. If I had to run a display for 8 hours with long lighted trains with multiple locos? Well I don't think I would choose batteries. 

Is this a condemnation on battery? No, of course not. 

Look I helped screw up Marty's thread... I'm sorry... if you want to argue battery vs. track, start a new one. I took Del's comment to be a blanket: track power gets worse with more running blanket statement. That was wrong too, that's not what he meant. 

Greg


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok. Apologies accepted.


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## jt2048 (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh wow, did someone shine the bat signal on the clouds?







IPTrains, yeah, right, that would be us. We were too busy working the booth at the show to go see any (allegedly) failed battery operations but I will say that ours worked just fine. That's because we use both track power and a floating battery. Like socks on a rooster. Technical details here;TrainUPS . 

Can't possibly work you say? Well try the *unconditional 90 day money back guarantee (*yes we will take it back after you install it). Just our little attempt at FUD busting









By the way, the silly thing is on sale...

Best to all JT


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I was at the CIGRS club meeting Sat and two folks told me , when they was on the layout tours in Denver that every single battery powered layout had troubles and all track powered layouts ran fine??? 


To get back to the rumor mill at hand... 

The four guys I know who were running battery power (Del, Pete Doty, Lowell Deitz, and myself) all ran successfully the days we were open. Either the two folks Marty talked to never made it to our railroads, or they didn't realize we were running battery. Despite the detailed questionnaire each host had to fill out about our railroads, the tour book descriptions were a bit lacking in those particular details. I don't think I saw any other battery-powered railroads (we're in the minority out here), or if there were, I didn't realize it, either. I didn't tour on Tuesday, because I was on tour myself, and Wednesday I had other commitments. The track power railroads were also running very well, with only two exceptions--one which had an electrical problem of unknown nature causing all the trains to stop, and the other which was having derailment issues unrelated to how the trains were powered. The reality is that from what I saw, Murphy seems to have taken a holiday for most tour hosts. 

My own experience the two days I was open (Tuesday for the tours, Thursday for the MLS gathering) couldn't have been better. On Tuesday, I started with the Heisler at 8:00, and finally parked it at 10:30 to run the mogul just for variety. The Mogul ran continuously until 5pm when I shut things down because the family was getting hungry. I was flabbergasted with the mogul's performance. That's the first time I had the opportunity to really test the LiIon batteries for endurance, and I'm here to tell you--I like getting nearly 7 hours run time in the space formerly occupied by batteries that could--at best--muster half that. I think on Thursday I just ran the mogul, with similar longevity. 

Later, 

K


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!! Bet Marty is wishing he would have never asked huh Marty???? HAH LOL The Regal


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## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By East Broad Top on 24 Aug 2009 12:29 AM 
(snip) That's the first time I had the opportunity to really test the LiIon batteries for endurance, and I'm here to tell you--I like getting nearly 7 hours run time in the space formerly occupied by batteries that could--at best--muster half that. I think on Thursday I just ran the mogul, with similar longevity. 

Later, 

K 
Kevin, that's has been my experience with the 14.8 volt 4400 mAh Li-ions. 

I just did a conversion on an LGB Mogul using the REVOLUTION receiver, running the motors and lights, triggering the electronic sound, powered by the 14.8's with an 8 hour runtime pulling 8 cars in 100 degree heat. It all fit in the tender. No battery car for this one. Coal load lifts off for battery changes.


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## Trains (Jan 2, 2008)

Stan, 

Where did you get your batteries? 

Don


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Stan pointed me towards these two sources: http://www.batteryspace.com or http://www.all-battery.com. I found the prices to be comparable between the two. Figure on spending around $70 for a 4.4Ah 14.8v pack. 

Later, 

K


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

I always find it interesting at these big layout tours that there are always reports of failed battery trains.

Now maybe we were just lucky but when we were on the layout tour, for the National Narrow Gauge Convention held in Durango, our locos ran flawlessly and our batteries never faltered. The control system we use is Airwire 900. And all of our converted locos are done by MLS' own K27_463 (Jonathan Bliese) of Electric & Steam Modelworks. 

So maybe it's just a good install, but I'll never ever forget a comment one lady mentioned as she walked up to our layout after seeing a few other layouts..."Oh look they have trains running here". That one made us proud


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## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

If I don't watch the clock, my Mallet will always crawl off into a tunnel or behind a bush to expire. I think I need something like a milliampsecond counter.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Torby on 25 Aug 2009 06:49 AM 
If I don't watch the clock, my Mallet will always crawl off into a tunnel or behind a bush to expire. I think I need something like a milliampsecond counter. 
You mean there's a downside to battery operation? I can't believe it.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Nah, no downsides!! Charging batteries is good to relieve the boredom!









Ed


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Of course there's a downside. Once your significant other finds out you're no longer using that drywall sander to clean your track, she'll put have you putting it to work sanding drywall on the bathroom remodel!  

To be fair, I have had a few battery failures during open houses. That's one advantage of using the NiMH AA cells in removable battery clips. When all else fails, call on the Energizer Bunny. It may not have been the most environmentally friendly open house, but 24 alkaline batteries covered the entire day. Thank goodness for Sam's Club--and a daughter whose toys seem to require an almost constant supply of AA batteries. Alas, rechargeables just don't work well in kids' toys. 

Later, 

K


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Desnis's Layout is a exceptional layout and there for is a exception to the rule. Anything that big with those long trains would wear a battery down fast. He would have to have a multitude of chargers to keep up. When I was running Track Power The best running engine was my USA NW-2 with it's sliders for contact. I would send that out and the first two trips were jerky. But after a few trips around it became quite smooth. 


Socks on a Rooster? Would you like to expound on that one?


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## K27_463 (Jan 2, 2008)

Dennis S layout in Arizona is certainly an exception. When he first embarked down the path of battery /r/c ,I warned him that he would need to be very organized, and keep good records. This is because he has so many locos and so much space, that knowing what was ready for use and what just came off a train would be important. He has a rack of chargers. He has dozens of racks of locos. I have seen the crew spend 10 minutes putting on a string of locos, only to discover they were out of fuel- just came off a train and needed to be serviced- charged-( just like the prototype). He switched to track power during an open house not due to some inherent equipment shortcoming, but because of a lack of proper crew performance in having adequate motive power fueled up and ready to go- or even being able to keep track of locos and which to use and which to put away.

Lots of diesels in long strings can be a problem simply due to the confusion factor. The stuff he has that is not easy to confuse- such a s a few USA big boys, has run flawlessly and pulled well on battery r/c since attention is paid to such locos by default- you do not forget about one. However,4- 6 geeps in a row are hard to memorize road numbers and such. If one fuel tank is empty- well...

Most of us do not have problems of scope like this of course, hence the exception comment .


Jonathan


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## Jim Agnew (Jan 2, 2008)

I was next to Dennis during the AirWire clinic in Denver when he mentioned he needed to mu more than 4 engines. I turned to him and said, how many engines do you want to mu? His response was 8.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you guys for reinforcing my point, that for long trains, lots of locos, and extended running, battery is not always the be all end all. 

By the way Jonathan, most DCC people have adopted the convention that the road number is the loco "address" or "id", in my layout the last 4 digits are the address. Yes you want to have unique numbers on the locos, but decals are cheap if you need to make road numbers unique. 

This convention that most DCC people adopt make it very easy to tell someone to go run a loco... it's also why I tried to convince a major manufacturer of a R/C system to use 4 digits instead of 2... just keeps it simple.. 

Someone comes over my place, and I say "the road number is the loco number" once. The rest of the day they just pick a loco with no further ado. 

On consists, I use the first 2 digits of the lead loco as a convention. 

There are many simple ways to do it, but this makes it easy to look at a loco and know immediately how to run it. 

Again, I was pointing out the exceptional case... I surely do not have as many locos as Dennis, but I do run consists of up to 6 locos on a regular basis with no muss no fuss. 

Regards, Greg


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

Hmmmm, do you think we can conclude here that Greg likes DCC and track power????

Ed


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

For some cases, in other cases, like the Pacific Northwest, or where there is a lot of dust or organic matter, or where power is impractical, or where there are just a few locos, I recommend battery, and even sometimes the Revo TE! 

For me, my situation and climate, DCC works great for me and track power saves me a lot of time. 

Regards, Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Before this turns into a track vs. battery debate, let's consider the original rumor put safely to rest and leave the dog lying quietly on the front porch. No need disturbing him to predictable results. 

Later, 

K


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info , end of my topic...


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