# From Revolution To DCC...



## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

Hey guys! I've been thinking about going to DCC because I've been watching youtube videos and I'm pretty amazed at the things DCC can do now... like the smoke and light controls and the sound and motor control boards... I have been looking at the QSI titan and I really like it... but I guess my question is how does everyone like the QSI titan? would love some input form greg on this... been reading his website for a couple of days now.

just looking for some input or advice... the revolution was pretty nice to start out with... but adding sound to locomotives is wasting money... like an RX is 100 and a phoenix sound card is another 180... could save 80 a locomotive by using QSI... plus all the other things it does... would this be a good move?


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm currently installing a QSI Titan into a USA Trains SD40-2. I've only bench tested the decoder with 1 of the 2 speakers hooked up. The sound is amazing! I'm using the new Q3 Emulator Technology (ET) sound file. The ET files run pretty much like the real thing.

One thing with QSI is that the new owner (Josh Shedaker) just purchased the company this past fall. Josh was the previous manager of QSI before becoming the new owner. He's been working at redesigning QSI's website. He's also been working at adding Steam sound for the Q3 ET files. These projects have consumed a lot of his time. So, trying to send emails to him have taken a while for a reply. He says now that he is about to launch the new website and is returning to customer service. I do have to say that when you talk to him, he will go all out to fix the problem and answer all of your questions. I had to send a Titan decoder in for repair.

I don't work for QSI, just like the decoders. I follow the QSI thread on Yahoo Groups.

I'm working on installing all of the lights now. Advantage of large scale, lots of room for installing lights. The lighting effects you can do are really neat. You can customize lots of things. I recommend getting and using the QSI programmer. It allows you to do a lot more than JMRI's Decoder Pro. The QSI programmer is designed for use with QSI decoders. JMRI will work, but it's more of a basic programmer for QSI decoders and you'll miss out on some customizing options.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I like the QSI decoders as well. I've got two of the new Titans installed in my locos, one steam and one diesel. (I've worked with the older-generation "Magnum" boards as well with pleasant results. I haven't upgraded to the Q3 sound files yet, as the only sound files they currently have aren't suitable for the locos the boards are in. 

My only grumble with the QSI boards is that with the regulated throttle control turned on, you've got to futz with the PID settings to get many large scale locos to behave properly at very low speeds. Fortunately Greg's web site has recommended settings which so far have tamed most of the locos I've worked with. The worst that happens is you go with "standard throttle control" which turns that feature off. It's not as good at really low speeds as a well-tuned RTC locomotive, but it's a darned site smoother than one with really messed up PID settings. 

The two-channel speaker output is cool, but from more than 5' away, the effect starts to get lost. It's worth having fun with when installing things, but it's not something I'd use as a "deciding factor" between different decoders. 

Most definitely get the programming interface. Trying to program something as complex as the Titan using CVs and a handheld throttle is an exercise in utter frustration--especially when you've got primary and secondary indexes to keep straight. 

You might also want to keep an eye out for the new TCS "Wow" decoders. I tried them at a show last month, and was very impressed with what I saw and heard. I'm not sure how they stack up in terms of lighting features, but the sound was CD quality, and the motor control was very smooth. They'll be releasing a large scale version shortly, but they couldn't be more specific. (Such is life in large scale...)

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I love them, but I spent years looking for a combination decoder at a good price, SoundTraxx promised a large scale Tsunami forever (6 years).

So, I wound up getting in beta testing the LS QSI units, and have been helping them ever since. I am not an employee, nor have I received renumeration, although I have gotten a few decoders (in exchange for hours of work, which I was happy to do for free)

Everything said above is true, although I see that Kevin has not used the latest ET sound files, the TCS decoders are very good, but not anywhere near the capability of the Titan.

Also, if you were listening to my 3 E8 locos each with 2 speakers, you would see that the "stereo" on EACH one is perceptable from much further than 5 feet, but not to get into an argument with Kevin, he does not run E8, or Mallets, etc.

The lighting effects and moreover the ability to configure them to basically any way you want is nice.

The "direct drive" smoke is also nice, although other decoders have this function (ESU, Zimo, Massoth).

It's the decoder of choice for me. 

Also, made in the USA!!! (sometimes Canada)... unbelievable.

Greg


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I have times that I wonder if anything can be made in the US. It is good to see that these can be designed and assembled here, in relatively small numbers at a fair price. American ingueinty is still alive.


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

WOW! did not know they were made in the USA! awesome! what is the best equipment to use with the titan decoders? also has anyone ever had any problems with them? are they like the phoenix sound cards were I can change the whole sound file to a different locomotive?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Depends on the sound file. The new "Q3" files, which are the larger, higher-quality sound files must be changed via the programmer to get from one sound file to the other. There's only so much memory on the Titan, so they limited your choices on the decoder itself. You have a choice of something like 10 horns on each individual file, but everything else--bell, compressor, etc.--is preset by the sound file itself. 

The older "Q2" files have a ton of choices loaded onto the Titan decoder itself. You don't need the PC programming software to change sounds. They are grouped by type--large steam, small steam, diesel, etc., but your choices within those groupings are quite varied. For instance, with the diesel sounds, you can select one of 20 or so prime mover sounds, 20 - 30 horns, a dozen or more different bells, etc. You can select these simply by changing the CV for the given sound you want to change. 

There's nothing wrong with the Q2 sound files. Many rank them on par with Phoenix in terms of quality. Certainly the ones I've loaded, I've been very happy with.

I've not seen Titans pre-loaded with the Q3 files on the store shelf at Caboose, so I don' t know if they're shipping with those files or if that's a user (or perhaps dealer) customization. The Q3 library is still very limited--they've only just released an early beta version of the steam sounds, and the diesel sound library for large scale is currently but a shadow of that available for HO. I'm waiting for the Alco 539 to be released for large scale. When that comes available, I'll probably upgrade the sound in my center cab. 

Later,

K


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg is an expert on these, has a lot of information on his web site.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Kevin, after installation, the Q2 file only has 2 horns and one bell.

It is the Q3 "generic" files that have bells and whistles that can be changed without reloading the sound file with a programmer.

And I have heard the Q3 "ET" sound files, and they are a quantum jump above the other files.

Of course not everyone has an "ear" for all the finer points of sound.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg Elmassian said:


> Kevin, after installation, the Q2 file only has 2 horns and one bell.
> 
> It is the Q3 "generic" files that have bells and whistles that can be changed without reloading the sound file with a programmer.


 "Q3 'generic' files?" I'm confused. The generic libraries (v0-0-6.qxl, and v0-0-4.qxl) loaded at the factory onto the Titan are comprised of the ".q2" sound files (version 8.x.x), not the newer ".q3" (verion 9.x.x). QSI had to send me their default library file for me to upload after they accidentally reprogrammed a board I sent them for repair with the wrong one. (They've since made them available for download on their web site.) The sounds are without question the same "Q2" sound files we've been hearing for years. (That, and they sent me that file prior to the first Q3 files being available.) 

Here's a screenshot from that decoder loaded onto CVManager once I finished uploading the library:










For those unfamiliar with CV Manager, In this window, I'm selecting which of 5 available chuff sounds I want to use. For whatever reason, the "Heavy chuff" sounded better in the Climax than the "light chuff." I've already programmed the whistle and bell to my liking. The column on the left shows how many choices I have for each specific sound. (33 whistles, 17 bells, etc.) You can program these CVs on your handheld remote as well, though I highly recommend the programming software.

I've played with the Q3 "Emulator" sounds on my laptop, and they are a marked improvement over the old ones. (I do hope they upgrade the Q2Upgrade software so to be able to play the prime mover sounds so you know what _they_ sound like, as you can with the Q2 sound files.) No doubt the sounds are going to be higher quality, but the trade-off is that your choices are fewer, and you're back to needing the Q2Upgrade software to select the sounds. Essentially, we're back to where we were with the Magnum and the Q2 sounds, but with a better board and higher-quality sounds. I can live with that, though I prefer CV adjustments. I'm just waiting for the library to expand to cover my locos.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

(original post deleted, reference my signature)

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

To avoid any further confusion, from *QSI's web site:*

They're offering the Titan board with two different software packages:

"Titan Q2-FX" has the legacy Q2 sound libraries, and are configurable via CVs as illustrated above. 

"Titan ET" has the latest "Emulator Technology" (aka Q3) files loaded onto them. You must use the Q2Upgrade programming software to cut and paste the sounds to upload them to the decoder. 

Later,

K


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## ewarhol (Mar 3, 2014)

East Broad Top said:


> To avoid any further confusion, from *QSI's web site:*
> 
> They're offering the Titan board with two different software packages:
> 
> ...


Yup that's all correct. With the Q3 file and the CV manager program from QSI you can then go in and customize the sounds, for example adjusting sound volumes for system sound level, engine 1 and 2 sound output, horn/bell volume and so on. You can also add in a motor knock sound to the either engine 1 or 2, as well as adjusting how loud the knock is. The CV manager program also allows you to control/adjust all of your lighting, and all other CV's used with the decoder. There's so much the user can customize with the Q3 file, I haven't even begun to touch the surface of what you can do.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I just finished loading my Climax with the new Q3 "large scale steam" sound files. The bells and whistle recordings are noteworthy improvements over the older files in terms of clarity of sound, but more importantly they picked some really cool-sounding prototypes to record this time 'round. There's a much more "melodic" variety to choose from; whistles for small industrial locos to Big Boys. 

The chuff is an improvement as well, but be ready to sit down and play with a bunch of parameters to get it tuned for your locomotive. It's not a simple matter of setting the loco on the track and hearing "chuff chuff chuff chuff" as we're used to. The factory default gave me a very muddy, inaudible exhaust at all but the heaviest acceleration. Figuring out what to adjust to change that took a bit of trial and error. That was probably the hardest part of the whole process was figuring out what was going on there. (They haven't finished the steam manual yet, so there was no book to read. They do have a 4-page document on the new steam chuff parameters that helped.) 

Also, be ready for a slew of sounds that you may not be sure what they are right out of the gate. The default coal auger sound threw me for a loop until I found the control on the CV Manager software to change it to a coal shovel. 

I was a bit disappointed in the rod clank sound. I was hoping for a new recording for that as we got for everything else, but it sounds no different than the older sounds. (Phoenix definitely has the better rod clank sound.) By happy accident, though, the rod clank sounds something akin to gear noise on a geared steam loco, and since this board is in a Climax, it's perfect. You shut the throttle down, and you hear gears knocking against each other as the train drifts by. 

I've still got some tweaking to do on things, but that needs to be done outside on the railroad in the loco's "natural" environment. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The chuff is under "improvement" and will be a lot better, the first Q3 rendition was not very good, exactly as you describe it.

Also, wait until you see and hear the Steam ET files (yeah, I know the title of the download page already says ET sound files... it is really Q3 / ET sound files).

They are coming.. the only ET files out now are diesels.

Greg


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Greg, you've confused me once again. The *files *that are on the new QSI web site _are_ the "ET" steam files. (Per Josh's announcement on the QSI's Yahoo group discussion to the tune of "the new ET Steam sounds are on the new web site; try them out.") Yeah, they're beta versions, but all the new sounds and programming attributes are there. All the advertised functionality is there, and--absolutely--the chuff (once tuned to the locomotive) is pretty kick butt. I had the Climax out running this morning on the railroad, and it's slick. 

All they need to do now is get the darned G-wire receivers back out on store shelves, so those of us who run battery can actually have reason to buy more of the decoders. 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

sigh, now an argument over beta files... If I had presented them, you would have complained that they were not production..

so just wait until you hear the production, finished, final ET steam files.

p.s. for the rest of the gang, just email me privately if you have questions...

kevin, since you won't stop, the rest of the thread is yours...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

(Original response modified after I realized that Greg had completely re-written his post in the time I was composing mine.)

"sigh, now an argument over beta files... If I had presented them, you would have complained that they were not production.."

Not sure what you're driving at. Josh is calling these files the "ET" files (whether beta or production), and since he owns the company, I use his terminology in my writing. Why would I not? If you want to draw a differentiation between the beta version that's currently published and what will be the "final" version, that's _your_ terminology, not the company's. I will continue to use their terminology to reference the files, since that's how readers will find them on the company's web site. (That, and we both know QSI updates software almost as frequently as hospitals change sheets, so what's "current" today may well be changed tomorrow.) 

The response to the version currently available for download (7-0-176) has been very favorable. Certainly I'm happy with it. There seems to be no discussion about improvements save for minor tweaks to fix small bugs and that they're working on adding analog DC compatibility. 

I'm curious--you write "wait until you hear..." as to imply you have heard the "final" version, and that it's a significant advantage over the file that's currently available for download. Care to enlighten us as to what we can expect? 

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

re-read:


Greg Elmassian said:


> sigh, now an argument over beta files... If I had presented them, you would have complained that they were not production..
> 
> so just wait until you hear the production, finished, final ET steam files.
> 
> ...


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

With respect, Greg, you say you're done quite often in our "discussions," yet rarely do you actually let things be at that point. (smile, wink, friendly poke in the ribs) I figured if you were true to form, you weren't _really_ done, so I asked another question. 

Now, I will apologize for the snarky tone of my question. I was still a bit steamed over your tone in the post you thoughtfully deleted in the time I was composing a response. Please allow me to ask again with cooler head:


I just upgraded from what QSI is calling the "Q2-FX" to what they're calling the "ET" steam file. (I'm using the terminology and files which are on their *web site* just to avoid any confusion.) For my part, I'm a very happy camper with what I installed. It lives up to the promise of the "Emulator Technology" promotion and documentation (which is saying something, given my high level of skepticism when it was first announced). 

From your writing "wait until you hear..." I presume that you've played with the version of the software which I installed as well as what you call the "final" version, and have some idea of what is different between the two. 

1) What are the areas of improvement between the two version?
2) Would you recommend skipping this version and waiting for what you call the "final" one, or will this current version suffice for all but the most finicky of user?

Allow a follow up question based on a different presumption--that you are writing "wait until you hear..." based on plans of where QSI hopes to take this product in the future, not a comparative analysis of two existing sound files. From what I've seen discussed with the diesel sounds, there are some great things coming down the pike, but no timetable for when they're going to arrive. (The "Do-It-Yourself" horn library is, if you'll pardon the pun, going to be a "blast" to play with.) Presuming they have similar visions for the steam sounds, what are your insights as to where this is ultimately leading? (I'm all for a quillable whistle.) 

There are no ulterior motives nor malice in my asking these questions. I'm not taking you to task. I'm asking (politely, I hope) to get your insight based on your comments as to what the future holds--either based on your actual experience with different versions of the software if that's the case, or if not, more general in terms of future features we might expect. 

No need to re-post "re-read" if you're not in the mood to answer. I'll take your lack of further comment as indication that you have no desire to continue this discussion. I'd like to think, however, that we are not beyond civil discourse about a sound and control system we both agree to be among the best and most full-featured on the market.

Later,

K


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't wish to continue the discussion, but today, just once, I'd like to have the last word... we'll see.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

This is funny, Greg's last word was Greg, not word.


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## mbendebba (Jan 22, 2011)

And the beat go on and on and on!!!!!!

Mohammed
www.allaboutlgb.com
www.massothusa.com


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## apo234 (Aug 14, 2013)

ok guys after all that I start looking in to DCC systems and a 10 amp NEC system is like 700 dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No way I can do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its the only system I even like! where is the best place to buy NEC equipment from? maybe I can buy it one part at a time!


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

Would their 5 amp system work for you, or do you need the 10 amp?

MTS users used 5 amps for years, and not everyone needs the power for running several big engines with large loads and lights. The USA large steam locos and big diesels use a lot of power, but my single small motor engines do not.

And then there are boosters for running on a second track, but I do not know if you can add a 10 amp booster to a 5 amp system, perhaps Greg has info on this as he uses the NCE system. I use MTS and Zimo systems, and a mix of decoders from other manufacturers.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The 10 amp, top of the line system with wireless throttle is about $654 if you look around.

You can start wired and add radio later.

They have a 3 amp system with the same wired throttle under $200, can add 5 amp booster later.

But APO, you are looking at the WRONG aspect... your cost will be in the per loco cost. How many locos do you plan to have?

the control system is a one time cost... the per loco price is where you save money, compared to any other control system with equal functions.

To go cheaper per loco, you have to give up remote control, i.e. DC only.

Greg


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

the digitrax 8amp system, SCFXD8, is available for under $600 from various sources. It's the command system I use (combined with zimo decoders). Greg is correct in that the real cost is in the locomotives. My zimo decoders, which are sound decoders, run about $250 each, so I've got way more $ in decoders than I do in the command station.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

That's the ticket, look at the big picture. Also, sometimes people want to buy a "starter" DCC system, and then buy a powerful one later... waste of money and time, and you are still using a crappy one while you consider upgrading.

I bought the system I liked and have been happy with the decision ever since. I also found that most clubs use the same system, so I can go to club meets with my throttles and everything works great.

Yeah, outfit 2 or 3 locos and you have spent more than the DCC system, which will service you for years.

Greg


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

TJH, where do you get zimo decoders for $250?
Street price at Train-Li is under $200 for several models,
Or are you including the large speaker cost and other items?

And the MX645 is under $100 and I use it in small engines where running current meets the 1.2 amp spec of this decoder.


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## TJH (Dec 27, 2007)

Dan Pierce said:


> TJH, where do you get zimo decoders for $250?
> Street price at Train-Li is under $200 for several models,
> Or are you including the large speaker cost and other items?
> 
> And the MX645 is under $100 and I use it in small engines where running current meets the 1.2 amp spec of this decoder.


I have the mx695kv which train-li lists at $230 so that plus the speaker is probably where I got a $250 estimate. I use big speakers and plan to install a pulse smoker, plus the locomotives getting decoders right now are 3 lgb moguls, a bachmann annie, and a bachmann consolidation, so not small engines really. If I ever put one in my 2017 American stainz, I might look at the smaller decoder.


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## Dan Pierce (Jan 2, 2008)

I now see where the $250 came from.
I use voltage regulators on the lower end Zimo decoders and find they do a great job.

On the Stainz, it works great with the MX645, but do not run smoke from it, the total current rating is 1.2 amps and the smoke will take you over that.
But you can run a smoke unit from track power and add the amplifier circuit to make it work.

I find that on the old units with the solid stack is to just run them with track power and use the psuedo switch on the bottom of the stack to turn them on and off, but you would be using a 18 volt smoke unit on over 20 volts. These put out lots of smoke this way.


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## honeybooboo (Jan 10, 2014)

Ive been playing for about a year and a half now. Ive thrown away literately my '2' 3 rail MTH DCS Systems because they were inferior to
the NCE 10amps system. MTH is the same old thing unlike QSI and NCE that seem to be the future of Model trains in general. 
Boo Boo............

P.S. Never got into the revo because I kindav knew they weren't going to be around long.


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

We have PH-10R's for $599.89


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