# Batteries



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I am totaly pi**ed with the Aristo Li-ion batteries and am not going to buy any more. I have one 14.4 volt Li-ion battery I got from Batteryspace.com to use in an Airwire install. Now I am using the new QSI decoders and receiver. I was thinking of using 2 of the 14.4 volt LI-ion batteries in a battery car for a total of 28.8 volts and then setting the appropriate CV in the decoder for a max voltage of 24 volts. What does anyone out there think?


----------



## Guest (Jun 12, 2008)

I am an RCS user...I use 14.4 for most everything....I assume what voltage you don't "use" will simply be lost as "heat" as the battery is discharged/used....this is my simple understanding of battery power...the pros will have more to say! 

cale


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Careful! 

Airwire turns to smoke easily on an overvoltage. A common size battery is nominally safe, but fresh out of a charger will kill the receiver. 

What's the matter with your Aristo Lithium?


----------



## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Most engines run just fine on 14.4 volt batteries. If you are using AirWire receivers, you need to either use batteries that are under 18v when freshly charged or split the batteries to allow using less than 18 volts to run the electronics. The higher voltage can be used to power the motors. 

If you are using a QSI, you may be able to use higher voltage. Using 28.8v batteries is probably excessive for any receivers. As was mentioned earlier, excess voltage is converted to heat in the receiver. Excess heat is never a good thing. 

I believe your 14.4v Li battery is made up of 4 cells. If you really need more voltage, why not add a 2 cell Li battery to the 14.4 volt one. That would work well with most receivers.


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I'M NOT USING AIRWIRE. I got rid of all of my Airwire stuff. I am using the QSI Quantum decoders with their GWire receiver. QSI says the unit can handle up to 35 volts. I build battery cars and battery locomotives to hold the batteries and use the Aristo plugs to plug everything together. The Aristo Li-ion batteries work well for this but I have 8 out of 10 batteries crap and am tired of buying crap batteries and having to return them. Besides at $75.00 to $100.00 a piece ther are better values out there.


----------



## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Try this place for good battery and charger prices. Just copy and paste this into your browser 

http://www.all-battery.com


----------



## Madstang (Jan 4, 2008)

If you are using a battery car why not use the tool batts, like Milwaukee or DeWalt? 

Battery packs are lack luster, if you don't use them they, for me hav a tendency to go bad...not my tool batts. 

I have 2 Milwaukee 3 bay chargers and I just leave them on those untill I need them.....works better then any battery packs...I have 2 Triton chargers and I really don't like messing with them to charge the battery packs..the bays are much easier 

I have Aristo Li-on batts in 4 of my tenders and right out of the box I have had 1 failure...so far..still they beat the battery packs you can buy...but this is MHO./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif 

Bubba


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I was looking at Home Depo and they have 2 packs of Ryobe 18 volt batteries for $44.95. The charger is $32.95. The only problem is I can't tell what kind of batteries they are. Probably nicads.


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

if they are yellow..they are NiCad... 

they are making some Lio---something nowadays as well! 

the Yellow ones work really good-I have a large Ryobi Set! I'm surprised they don't have a fathers day drill special with battery and charger for about $40...


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

They have all sorts of specials on Ryobi tools but I HATE Ryobi tools. Besides I already have 3 battery drills & don't think i need another one.


----------



## ralphbrades (Jan 3, 2008)

Why don't you simply try some good old fashioned Sealed Lead Acid batteries? The one I use is a 6 Volt 4.5 Ah brick that costs me £4.99 each, (or £15.00 for four). The charger was about £7 and it us just a big plug with two fly leads. 

regards 

ralph


----------



## Guest (Jun 16, 2008)

Posted By rpc7271 on 06/15/2008 2:42 PM
They have all sorts of specials on Ryobi tools but I HATE Ryobi tools. Besides I already have 3 battery drills & don't think i need another one.




ok, so then I'm not really sure why you asked about their batteries? My above suggestion was mentioned only to allow that one "could" purchase the "promo drill set" to obtain at least one charger and battery(toss the included drill to the side, or use as a track sweeper)...then if one needed another battery (to make a set of 2 as you mentioned above)it could be purchased alone all for less than the 2 battery "pack" and a single charger combined... 

good luck


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Interesting stuff.....here is why: 

I have a big comparison study including a chart of rechargable batteries for something I am doing at work now (some neat stuff coming as far as batteries folks). Some real life (thousands of units studied nationwide) on all types of batteries NiCd, Li-ion, NiMH, etc including charge cycles, overall life, impact of hot and cold, impact of over charging and over discharging) studies and pros and cons. From what I saw today, NiCd for our use (charge cycle being a factor and overall life) is the best.....for now. 

....and some drawbacks of the race for more power means old batteries that lasted 8 years are gone and 18mo to 2 years are now the norm...../DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif Or what I am having to tell the folks in purchasing.....


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 06/16/2008 7:57 PM
From what I saw today, NiCd for our use (charge cycle being a factor and overall life) is the best.....for now.




Data please ...


----------



## Stan Cedarleaf (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By ralphbrades on 06/15/2008 11:38 PM
Why don't you simply try some good old fashioned Sealed Lead Acid batteries? The one I use is a 6 Volt 4.5 Ah brick that costs me £4.99 each, (or £15.00 for four). The charger was about £7 and it us just a big plug with two fly leads. 
regards 
ralph




Ralph, I couldn't agree more with you about the good old fashioned Sealed Lead Acid Batteries. Gel cells.... 

Heavy...... yes 
inexpensive....... yes 12 volt 4.5/5 amp hour brick.... less than $20 each 
reliable....... yes I've used many for more than 5 years with continuous cycle charging 
easy to charge........ yes Walmart 1.5 amp charger.... $18.00 
long run time.......... yes 3-6 hours 
heavy duty running......... yes Most pulling long 15+ car trains... 
mounted in battery car with interchangeable cells for continuous running.... yes 

I run 12 volt 4.5 and 5 amp hour bricks, wired in series to 24 volt and get 4-6 hours of continuous run time with TE, with an LGB ALCO pulling 18 Bachmann boxcars and a caboose. 

Ohter applications.... battery car, TE, Sierra sound, 2 Aristo U-25's. both powered, 2-3 hours continuous running. Continuous running is defined by turn it on and let it run until it stops. With little or no switching. 

That's just the type of running I do..... 

Oh yeah... I do use 2 and 4 cell Li-ion (7.2 and 14.4 volt) packs for my smaller LGB and Hartland powered locomotives. Run time.... 4-6 hours and more. 

Confusing, isn't it.... /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/hehe.gif


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

I got a Ryobi 18 volt charger for $30.00 and a 3 battery set for $50.00. I could have gotten a a hammer drioll with battery and charger for $70.00 but what to do with the drill after I steel the battery from it? Sell it on ebay without the battery? Then I would need another battery. The only thing I don't like about Nicads is the memory thing and having to runn them till they die. Haven't started in with the batteries yet, still gutting my loco.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By rpc7271 on 06/17/2008 11:52 AM
I got a Ryobi 18 volt charger for $30.00 and a 3 battery set for $50.00. I could have gotten a a hammer drioll with battery and charger for $70.00 but what to do with the drill after I steel the battery from it? Sell it on ebay without the battery? Then I would need another battery. The only thing I don't like about Nicads is the memory thing and having to runn them till they die. Haven't started in with the batteries yet, still gutting my loco.




If your only experience with NiCd batteries is with rapid charging drill batteries then, yes, the dreaded "memory" effect can happen. 
It is caused by rapid charging partially discharged batteries. Eventually the battery will only allow a small charge into the pack. 
Charging NiCd batteries with a conditioning charger such as those made by Maha will stop it happening. 
They can correctly discharge the pack automatically and then charge the pack correctly. 

I much prefer to charge NiCd batteries with the normal 10% rate for 14 hours then the, so called, "memory" effect NEVER happens. Consider it like filling a bucket with a fire hose at full pressure. Looks full after a few seconds but it isn't really. Dribble it in over a few hours and the pack is much fuller. 
You can even leave the NiCd's on a trickle charge all the time with no ill effects. 

I much prefer NiCd to NiMh for a number of reasons. 
Primarily because they usually have twice the recharge cycle capability compared to NiMh. In plain English they last twice as long. 
Also NiCd batteries do not self discharge as rapidly as NiMh do. That is mostly the reason why Sanyo no longer make AA size NiMh cells. They changed the chemistry to a mixture of NiMh and Alkaline and now guarantee their AA size cells to hold 85% of their charge for 1 year.


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 06/17/2008 5:59 
I much prefer NiCd to NiMh for a number of reasons. 
Primarily because they usually have twice the recharge cycle capability compared to NiMh. In plain English they last twice as long. 
Also NiCd batteries do not self discharge as rapidly as NiMh do. That is mostly the reason why Sanyo no longer make AA size NiMh cells. They changed the chemistry to a mixture of NiMh and Alkaline and now guarantee their AA size cells to hold 85% of their charge for 1 year.




Tony, Del, et al: 

These are the same as the findings of the study I mentioned above at work, charge life of the thousands Vs. hundreds, more stable in storage, longer running, etc. Guess it applies to trains too, and what I will consider when it comes time to battery power my choo choos. 

Your charger comments are one of the items we are contending with at work, people not dis-charging, over dis-charging, over charging, short vs. long charing, leaving/storing batteries in the hot/cold, etc. All killers over time. 

Reportedly, either a good charger like you mention Tony or, if that does not work, a few cycles of full discharge/recharge will supposedly break the memory. 

The other comment in the study was how to test for dead cells, if you (right after charge) 1VDC or more lower than the rating of the full pack, you have a dead cell. Over dis-charging is one cause of dead cells reportedly. 

Interesting stuff!


----------



## craigcoffman (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been using the ryobi batteries 'cause they are so darn cheap ($40.00 for 2 of the 18V ones), & cause I already had the charger. I do give them a deep discharge each time, & occasionaly a further, deeper discharge by hooking up a lightbulb to them & letting that run for a while. 

I have been taking the batteries out of the case though, so that they will fit in a boxcar or stock car. 

Batteries as purchased: 











after being removed from the case: 











I cut the tabs connecting the battery on top of the pack & move down with the rest & solder on new jumper wires & a four-pole computer power connector (I used these cause I had a lot of them around). 


















I then use one of the empty cases with the opposite gender computer power connector so that I can charge these packs using the supplies Ryobi charger without modifying it.


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Garrett. 
I have been using all sorts of batteries in Large Scale trains for over 20 years now. 
My comments are based on my experiences in that time. 

One thing you should remember is that if you discharge a battery too much a "smart" charger may not be able to detect the surface voltage and therefore not be able to charge it. 
Don't let a NiCd or NiMh battery run down too flat in the loco. As soon as the loco starts to slow replace or recharge the battery pack. 

I have my own tricks for rejuvinating NiCd battery packs that have developed a memory. 
I simply zap the pack for a few seconds on an old LGB starter set controller would up to full speed. Proper polarity of course. Then charge the pack, discharge it, zap it a again and then recharge again. They usually come back to life just fine. 

Your data about relative battery life is born out by the Sanyo battery service manual. A very useful document.


----------



## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Tony- 

Yes, and the data I have is from field work on insturmentation of about that many years, glad to see the agreement between the two. 

I like your "zap" idea, I "ass-ume" that you are hooking positive to positive, neg to neg, and you are hitting the packs with 18VDC, but what is the voltage of your pack, in the 14VDC range? 

Thanks!


----------



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

You need to hit the memory affected batteries with a pretty high voltage to make the "zap" technique work. 

Fully wound up the LGB starter set controller gives out around 27 volts under no load. That is ideal and is quite safe to do as the transformer is overload protected. I usually leave the leads on + to + etc until the overload trips after a minute or so.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2008)

I've had good success with my NiCads....You'll do fine!


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2008)

for kicks 

http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=42328&SearchTerms=drill,batteries


----------



## rpc7271 (Jan 2, 2008)

Craig, Thanks for the info and pictures. I haven't gotten around to wotking with the Ryobi batteries yet. i was wondering what they were like inside. Was wondering how to make the charger work after I tore the battery packs apart. Your idea is so simple. How do you secure the batteries and what kind of car do you put them in?


----------



## craigcoffman (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as securing the batteries, I assume you mean in the trail car? I don't. Their own weight holds them down pretty good. I would think maybe a couple of pieces of foam, one on each side would be best though, just to make it easy to pull them out & swap out a new pack. I use a box car & a stock car for my battery trail cars, one is has a receiver in it the other is just a battery car. In either case I plug the computer power connector into the car, then have a smaller less obtrusive plug for the car to the loco connection. 

-- 
craig


----------



## Torby (Jan 2, 2008)

Mine just lays in the tender.


----------



## Papachaz (Aug 28, 2008)

How do I make a 21.3 volt 2 amp hour battery pack ? 
Thanks Papachaz


----------



## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Well, I think you should have started a new thread for this question, but what are you going to use it for? That sounds like a lot of volts and not much run time to me.


----------



## Bill Swindell (Jan 2, 2008)

Why 21.3 volts? You either need to make the pack with NiCad, NiMH or Li-ion cells. With NiCad or NiMH cells, you need either 17 or 18 cells to get approximately that voltage. You can use the Aristo-Craft Li-ion battery. It is 21.5 volts at 2 AH.


----------



## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

To the original question: 

Yes the QSI will handle 35 volts just fine. 

You might have to charge your battery packs separately. 

Setting the CV for max volts is really not what it does, you would be setting the PWM output to the motor to an equivalent of 24 volts, but it would be 28 volts pulsed... this is important to remember, the voltage is not changed, only the pulse duration. 

Regards, Greg


----------

