# Not Happy with Bachmann.



## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

After praising Bachmann for making the 2-6-6-2T such a smooth running loco, my mind was instantly changed this afternoon when my customer came to pick it up.

I was in the process of demonstrating the loco when the two screws holding the motor in on the front truck *LITERALLY FELL OUT* alowing the motor to disengage the idler worm gear.
This necessitated removing the front engine block assembly from the loco, remove the motor, retrieve the screws from inside the gearbox, reinsert the screws to hold the motor to the bracket, replace the bracket and motor assembly in the front engine and then remount the engine into the loco.
Then I discovered why the motor mounting screws were probably loose in the first place, just like the drive rod screws on the rear motor block were. They were left loose so that the beast would actually run with a bent crank pin boss on the rear engine rear RH driver.
Now everything is properly tight, the front engine is much stiffer than the rear engine and starts later.

Perhaps getting them to start equally may only require a lot more running in. 
I hope so. 
Otherwise it will mean I remove the engines again and work on them.

Now my opinion of the Bachmann 2-6-6-2T is that it is just another piece of badly put together junk from China.


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I would be unhappy if that happened to me too, Tony. To say nothing of the embarrassment to you in front of your customer!! One has to wonder what has happened to the "quality control" for that kind of thing to happen. And personally, I blame much of the problem to the US companies like Bachmann and others. It is up to them to establlish the requirements that the factory follows - whether it be in China, the US, or Australia! My experience, when working for a living, was that the manufacturing organization will just do what they are told to do!!

Ed


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

About the only brand of loco I don't usually have to fix something on before I get to deliver a battery R/C conversion to a customer, is LGB. 
I have just finished a WP&Y dismal. 
Nothing broken and runs like a swiss watch. 

I have a brand new 3 truck Shay here right now to convert. It will be interesting to see what I have to *"FIX"* on that before it runs properly. 

I am really sick of being an unpaid diagnostician (usually with TOC's help) and repairer of Chinese made junk. 

I hope Bachman is reading this because, to say the least, *"I AM NOT AMUSED"*.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Not just "unpaid" but also "un-appreciated" as well! In fact, I'm pretty sure that _somebody's _blood pressure over at Bachmann (and probably Kader as well) is running pretty high because of your "not being a team player" and airing their QC problems rather than spouting the company line like all of the other "enthusiastic children!" Face it, in their eyes you and Dave are troublemakers! They would rather shut you up than listen to what you are saying _and by doing so, correct the problem!!_ So be it... All this does is reinforce my conviction that I won't buy a new Bachmann engine _until _it has had all of the bugs found and "fixes" devised and then it will _immediately_ go to Dave to get all of the useless &%^#$ ripped out and a tried and proven "Jurrasic Park" r/c conversion performed! After that, the Bachmann engine is a solid and reliable runner but _Jeez!!... _the hurdles you have to jump through!! (*Sigh)


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

What an embarrassing moment. It's a shame that all these company's are letting the QC slide by. I know one thing if I'm shelling out this much money as a company to build this product in China you can bet there is going to be a QC inspector from my company pulling items off line and checking. Maybe these folks might get the hint. I think the American companies need to get a little more aggressive with the factories and let them know if its not right then maybe it's time to go elsewhere. Later RJD


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By aceinspp on 05/17/2009 8:42 AM
What an embarrassing moment. It's a shame that all these company's are letting the QC slide by. I know one thing if I'm shelling out this much money as a company to build this product in China you can bet there is going to be a QC inspector from my company pulling items off line and checking. Maybe these folks might get the hint. I think the American companies need to get a little more aggressive with the factories and let them know if its not right then maybe it's time to go elsewhere. Later RJD

Where is "Elsewhere?" There is no Elseware and they know it.

PS How many engines have you had to do this on ?


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

I wish someone from Bachmann who's allowed to think freely would consider the following: 

There are an awful lot of us who really like what they make. Sure, they have an odd way of choosing prototypes, and the "what if" factor often makes us scratch our heads (the 36" gauge 2-8-0 made from a 30" prototype, the 2-6-6-2 that was never built, the Diesel made to the 1960's prototype that nobody has instead of the 1940's prototype that EVERYONE has) but when the initial head scratching and lamentation is done, there are an awful lot of us who go out and buy the locomotive anyway, because it's just so darn good looking. 

In my stable, I have a K-27, two 2-truck Shays, two 2-8-0's, a Railtruck, and half a dozen diesels. And a 2-6-6-2, though right now it resembles a box of parts. 

The Shays have both been re-trucked twice, the K-27 has had the axles and electronics completely revamped, the Consolidations have both been stripped down to have the motor bolted and loctited and the suppressor board removed (fortunately, the trucks have held up so far!) and the diesels are all in the process of having the silly pin contacts hardwired so they'll run smoothly. The 2-6-6-2 requires ... well, MAJOR overhaul. And it's never run under its own power! Oh, and the railtruck had to have the gearbox unbolted and reassembled to prevent grinding and failure; FORTUNATELY there was at the time someone who provided ways to do this kind of thing -- now there is NOT -- and instead of a cheap, effective fix, we get "send it back" ... and the rest of that story. Different rant for a different day.

See, this is the thing: I would have bought a SECOND K-27 had it not cost me more than half the price of the second locomotive to straighten out the first one. I would have bought a SECOND 2-6-6-2 (warts and all) if I hadn't had to spend almost as much fixing the first one as I would have paid for a second one. And, folks, I'm not talking about adding batteries, RC, and sound here, I'm talking about mechanical repairs, fabrication of new parts, and rewiring such that it'd run on TRACK POWER like it was intended to do, out of the box. I expect to spend my hobby dollars on "enhancements" like sound and radio control, and detail parts. I do NOT expect to spend my money putting the locomotive in a condition to merit installation of all that equipment! 

So, Bachmann ... where would YOU rather I spend my money? Fixing my first locomotive (which, since I don't return it to Philly, you get exactly $0.00 from) or on another locomotive, or maybe some cars to go with it? Forget keeping the hobbyist happy, choosing popular prototypes, whatever ... why not just make what you DO make work well, and run well.

Someone told me once that the "drop dead" was about 800 pieces: Sell less than this, and it's someone's head on the block for choosing the "wrong model." How much closer to a "block free future" would such people be if they didn't take those of us who shouted "I'll take two" and turn us into "I'll WAIT for take two before I buy one!" 

Somewhere on a shelf someplace, there's a K-27 with my name on it. It looks a lot like DRGW 463; it'd be Slate Creek #46. It's probably right next to the three truck Shay that would be Slate Creek #6. Sadly, they will sit there unbought (at least by me) until I have enough spare train capital to not only buy them, but "fix" them so they're "suitable for (my) large scale use" How many other locomotives with similar stories sit on that shelf next to the ones that would have been mine? 

Anyone listening out there? 

Matthew (OV)


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

there are an awful lot of us who go out and buy the locomotive anyway, because it's just so darn good looking. 
{snip} 
... why not just make what you DO make work well, and run well.
Why should they if people keep buying them anyway Matt? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with that question, but the fact is they can get away with what they're doing and still make money. From all I've read on these forums over the last nine years, I don't think Bachmann really gives much of a hoot about "customer satisfaction." 

To add insult to injury, unlike some other companies I can name that have issues and then take steps to correct those issues and prevent them in the future, Bachmann keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. Loose motor screws was an issue with the Connie was it not? New locomotive, same issue. MHO. 

Disclaimer: spoken as a forum participant only and NOT as a representative of MLS or the moderators.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

Just think about it for a minute and the economy! If they, meaning all distributors did not have malfunctions, flaws, or other problems then there would be NO need for parts, installers, fixer up er's or repair people who all make a living off of us that buy these things that are not perfect, and don't know how to fix the problem themselves (me included) most of the time thereby creating a vicious circle of prosperity! Right boys???? Somewhere down in the bowels of the earth there are repair people or handymen, that complain on the surface about problems, but cherish the fact they are being paid or making money for all the distributors downfall's. Makes sense to me how about you fella's. Let the bashing begin!!! LOL If we,( meaning me too) didn't buy all these sub-standard products as some say, there would be nobody selling this substandard "crap" as some would call it! That's "my opinion" and I'm "sticking to it " The Regal


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## Dougald (Jan 2, 2008)

Speaking also as a forum participant ...

To me, there are a number of elements that make up a good model, two of the more important ones being scale fidelity and mechanical robustness. B'mann has never been known for the latter and the latest saddle tank problems Tony encountered continue a long saga of these failings.

A few misconceptions exist here. First is the statement that American companies should "lay down the law" for the Chinese factories they use. To be clear on this, B'mann is a Chinese owned company, a wholly owned subsidiary of Kader Industries. I do not know how much authority resides in philly but for sure they have a boss (in China) to answer to.

The second misconception is that we can buy from someone else who does produce a better product. Now let's see ... Accucraft makes some Fn3 stuff but unfortunately, no inexpensive locos. We do buy tons of their AMS rolling stock (I own 50 cars myself) but they have not been trouble free in terms of truck rolling qualities. So, it seems B'mann may be almost the only game in town.

Perhaps we should consider changing scales just keeping our track. Hmmm ... LGB makes (well ... made!) out of scale junk ... errr toys that runs beautifully and costs a fortune. Aristo has been known to have the odd QC lapse - just read the threads over the last few months here on MLS. And that leaves just USAT among major suppliers - just this week Paul Norton and I replaced a split axle gear on my F3B. I own 3 USAT diesels and have now replaced every axle gear on them which suggests to me that USAT has the same problems as the others in getting this right.

Like Matt, I am a buyer of B'mann locos because they look good, and in themselves are accurate scale representations. Like Matt and Tony, I know that they will not run well for long and there is a high probability that the mechanics and electronics will need work. Fortunately, they are the low proce leader in the large scale world.

In no way do I condone what B'mann does and god willing, they would produce a more perfect model in every way even at a slightly higher price. Somehow I do not see it happening just as I doubt that Aristo will suddenly resolve their QC lapses or USAT will better design their drive trains or LGB will rise from the dead with a scale ruler in their hands. I have adopted the strategy of learning what the problem with a model is before I buy and then buying only when I am sure it can be fixed or I can live with it. I have as yet to buy either a K-27 or the 2-6-6-2 (much as I like both) though my shays and Connie have run beautifully for years (after some TOC fixing). Similarly, I am prepared to fix axle gears for USAT and tweak Aristo's QC problems. I have no cures for out of scale caricatures so I own no LGB.

I think Matt accurately nailed down the B'mann situation. He bought and would have bought more had they done it right. That applies to me as well and so far I have not bought the latest offerings.

Regards ... Doug


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## SlateCreek (Jan 2, 2008)

Bachmann makes a nice model. The K-27 really looks fantastic. Even the Alder Gulch 12 / FCM 12 Connie was a lot of fun. They can't seem to make a model of a non-obscure, non-messed with prototype (the K-27 being a glaring exception) but that's OK.

What is NOT, on the other hand, OK, is exactly what you're talking about... the lack of learning from mistakes, the shoddy functionality, the untested, unwieldy technical systems, and other things that make it impossible to put the model, whatever the prototype, in service. WHATEVER they decide, in their infinite wisdom, to make a model of, it should work, work well, and not have to be technically sorted out, rewired, re-engineered, and overhauled before it works. So, I think we're in agreement on that point, Dwight!


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## s-4 (Jan 2, 2008)

To make the "adjustment" more permanent I would try using lock-tite. Of course, Bachmann should have done this themselves before release....


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I know. 
The motor screws is one issue. 
But, someone went to a lot of trouble getting Botch.....errrrrr......Bachmann to keep me from publicizing issues. 
After the copying of "fixes", the release of the last one to someone else to publish before they gave me premission to publish, I am not even interested. 
It is really hard to believe Chairman Ting can't see what has happened, but if folks keep buying the stuff, as Dwight says, they are happy. 
I wonder how their sales are? 
After what transpired with the K, I know exactly one person (personally) who bought an Oscar (Meyer). 
Certainly different than the 2-8-0.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

"We" know how to fix the Bachmann QC problems. 
"We" should not have to fix the problems in the first place. 

The real problem with this particular manufacturer is, that they have put more emphasis on employing a *"Consultant"* and a *"Spin Master"* to try and cover up the problems rather than fixing those problems. 

Bachmann have a QC problem. 
Period.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Ah, yes, der spin meister. 
You know, one must be very well connected with someone very high in the organization at Klambake to get someone out of bed early Sunday morning to remove one of your more idiotic posts, AND talk them into removing quotes from all others, AND modify all further posts to make it seem like the original post never happened. 

Good thing the originals were saved. 

With such obvious close personal relationships, it is no wonder der spin meister was hired by Botch......errrr......Bachmann. 

After what I experienced with someone exerting outside influence on Klambake, it seems the era of truth, fairness and honesty is out the window. 

One wonders how this has/will affect future product reviews? 

Oh, and Matthew: 

Any chance of someone listening disappeared when certain folks decided they worked best "in the middle", filtering data to the head guys. 
Truth is ALWAYS a casualty in situations like this. 

Now they have two.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Please take note AMS, some would love to see you to compete against Bachmann with a similar priced loco.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/17/2009 7:04 PM
Please take note AMS, some would love to see you to compete against Bachmann with a similar priced loco.


I would just be happy for an AMS flat car that does not warp in the sun.......


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## Dave H (Jan 5, 2008)

June 09' Garden Railways, page 92 review,

How did they KEEP their Bachmann 2-6-6-2 RUNNING? (Magic)

They seemed to LIKE their Mallet.

Looks like Garden Railways, got the ONLY half way decent one, to come out of the factory.

Theirs actually ran, during the test anyway, with NO trouble. ( wonder if it still runs? )



Where is JACK (Buckso)?

I thought he was working to HELP Bachmann.


What has Jack been up to? ( anyone know? )



Thanks for telling me GUYS, I was going to buy one. ( NOT NOW )

I think I'll buy the LGB Amtrak with cars, from Nicholas Smith for $450 instead.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Jack was busy this weekend posting on the GR forum.......then getting them to delete his posts Sunday morning, and to modify others to show no sign he was there. 
But, we've saved them. 
Interesting reading. 
"Help" is not a word I would use to describe it. 

The 2-6-6-2 apparently was chosen so no-one could complain about non-adherence to the protoype, since it was never built. 
But, there were drawings! 

The drawings state, absolutely, that it is a "mallet". What we got was a "meyer". 

#1 and #3 axles are not sprung or equalized. 
#2 is sprung on each motor block. 

The motors appear to be out of a Shay, double-ended Mabuchis. 
The frame is full-width out to the edge of the saddle tank, and a 3" speaker HOLE is dead center. 
Cut the sides off to make a tender loco, and you have two separate pieces of frame. 

All the elctronics (smoke regulator, flicker driver) are on the Ames Super Socket board. 
Remove the board for space and use of any control that you don't want to plug-in, and you lose those items. 

Or, at least, that's what I read over on some blog.


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

I think the biggest disappointment for the consumer comes in unrealized potential. Each of the manufacturers is fully capable of delivering detailed, robust, and fairly inexpensive models, they just don't. Either they're simply reluctant to enter the market, or they keep finding new and creative ways to point the loaded gun at their own feet. "Frustrating" doesn't begin to describe it, but we're at their mercy. In an ideal world, we'd vote with our wallets and not buy the stuff. Realistically, we want to have _something_ to run on our railroads, so we pick our poison and go from there. The heart of the problem lies in the fact that the majority of hobbyists don't know or don't care that they're drinking the poison. It's all part of the status quo, and no one's successfully opened their eyes to what could be. 

Look back to the state of things in HO scale in the 70s and 80s. How many "Getting your XYZ Locomotive to Run" articles graced the pages of MR, RMC, etc.? I spent countless hours with can motors, silicon adhesive, and an ever-expanding vocabulary trying to get my old Bowser and Mantua steam locos to run worth a darn. That was very much the norm, and if you were in HO scale, and wanted smooth-running locos, that's what you had to do to get them. The good news is that the HO manufacturers eventually _got it._ Atlas and Kato hit the ground with diesel locos that crept along right out of the box. Now, the performance standard is so much higher than it was 30 years ago, and it's not an option not to meet it. The large scale manufacturers are either also involved with HO, or are reading the same history. 

I have every confidence that--eventually--they'll come around, too. I think the market needs to demand it, and I'm not sure the majority is there yet. We change that by leading by example--by demonstrating how we've gotten these locos to run on our railroads. They'll eventually come to understand that the status quo is unacceptable, which will put greater pressure on the manufacturers to up the ante a bit. If we want the manufacturers to live up to their potential, we need to lead them there in such a way that they want to go there on their own accord. 

Later, 

K


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin, I absolutely agree with you. 

The problem is they will not get where they should be going by us, the consumers, being nice to them. 

It seems they *ONLY* understand when a (metaphorical) big boot is planted up their backsides. 

I am more than happy to heap praise on them, if, and that is an increasingly bigger *IF*, they deliver what they so blatantly promise in the hyped up publicity. However the hyped up publicity seems to be just that. 
Very little is ever delivered that lives up to what has been promised.


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## DKRickman (Mar 25, 2008)

Kevin, 

I would tend to agree Re; HO model quality, with a couple provisions. 

First, the price point is significantly higher today than it was back then. Even accounting for inflation, the prices are astronomical. I'm used to a $5.00 freight car, but I go in the shop today and am lucky to find anything under $20.00. Steam locomotives for under $200.00 are either old, damaged, or otherwise un-sellable. If/when the same quality revolution comes to LS, we'll be paying several thousand dollars for even the most basic locomotives. Ugh. 

Second, Re: poor quality not being an option. After a very interesting conversation about Bachmann's quality, I started paying a little more attention to the small scale revies as well. While I had thought that their HO and N stuff was pretty good, apparently they're having the same problems there. There are a number of questions on various forums asking "Why doesn't my Bachmann XYZ run and how do I fix it?" The general consensus is send it back and get a new one. Yet they're STILL priced up there with the others. So I would argue that higher pricing is no longer an option, but higher quality is and will always be.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

The quality issues, it seemed, were improving over a decade-long period. 
But, then, there was this change, and suddenly, with no one to raise the alarm and point out the areas of concern, we are going right back to Alert Level "Rubbish".


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## Rod Hayward (Jan 2, 2008)

Fool me once..............


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

What totally sucks is that the QC problems are multiple sourced. First, there have been design screw-ups (for example, anyone want to comment on _why_ the optical chuff wouldn't work with conventional digital sound systems?) and then there has been ridiculously obscure prototype choices ( Live Long and Prosper...) that made NO sense! However, the most egregious (and unfortunately, the hardest to correct) has been the shoddy Chinese workmanship! When loose motor mount screws, bent crankpins, improperly soldered boards (the three-truck Shay) and bad plastic become the norm and the company's response is to threaten anybody that dares to actually comment, well.....

On a slightly different tack, has anybody heard what's going on with the long caboose? First, it was to be out by Christmas (nobody really believed that was going to happen!) and then we figured around April but that was too optimistic and then we were told June. That's in two weeks and so far _nothing...._ (cue the ominous music!) I would like to think that it's because Bachmann has finally learned it's lesson and is properly beta-testing this item so there are NO problems but I quit believing in Disneyesque happy endings a long time ago. I notice that, as far as anything _new_ being announced, Bachmann has been pointedly silent...


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, the reservation deadline for the Blackrock (I know) 0n30 long cabeese was this last Friday. 
Bets are the release of the Bot....errr....Bachmann caboose is once again tied to the release of a Blackrock unit. 
All we do now is watch for the release of the Blackrock unit, turn around, and see if the Phine Pholks are announcing theirs.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is my take on the whole thing. 

Having played with old brass and whitemetal kits (Bower et al) in HO, there was a bit of satisfaction from taking a box of bits or a primative model, and making something OK great. I have an OLD Bowser/English PRR steamer that while a bit crude, runs like a watch and is one of my favorite models. 

The plus to these items and kits of the same era was the ability to improve them. 

The modern stuff has moved away from this with purpose designed drives, pickups, etc. When my dad passes, things like his 40+ year old PFM brass will be much easier to keep up and repair (if and when needed) than his more recent Bachmann and BLI. 

One would think that large scale would lend itself more to kit building than RTR, but the opposite seems to be the case. 

....but then I was one that always looked with evny at the LGB catalog photos of a disassembled model (in about every catalog) and wanted to build it. 

Even HO has moved from this, and I got out of HO when I had to pay more money for a former US kit made in China to a lesser standard than I would build it. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I hear ya. 
I still pick up old Vaney, Mantua, English and Penn Line units, restore them and rebuild them, making very nice runners (track tested) before going on display. 
I have a call out even now for what I consider to be one of the worst ever by a mainline manufacturer, just to see if all these decades later, I can make a Silk Purse. 

As is is now with this stuff in LS, a lot needs to be re-kitted. 
Shimmed half axles. 
Battery switches that only lift half the track pickups. 
Motor screws (and, unfortunately many other screws) that are so loose they fall out on their own. 
Dyslexic electronics, with inverted chuff, current-limiting transistors in the lighting circuts, gearboxes that need to be re-worked (Heck, ALL my 4-6-0's have BBT drives, and my 2-8-0's, one has a BBT prototype, the other is getting ready for a production unit this week). 
Wires that are not soldered for strain relief, nor any external strain reliefs provide, counterweights so loose siderods literally lock, AND some clueless individual telling the manufacturer NOT to listen as he is CERTAIN there is no problem with the counterweights. 
2-8-0 counterweights, that no amount of lock-tite will hold the screws in place. 
Too long screws in railtruck final drives. 
Locked 8-wheel drive in Climaxes. 
Journal box lids (or "doors" as service calls them) that shouldn't have been designed to open in the first place, fall off in the stupid box, and when you mention it, you get a nasty call. 
Saddle tank Porters that waddle down the track. 
Plastics? 
Don't go there. 

aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I tend to agree with most that’s being said on this thread. 

I guess despite all these mistakes made, Bachmann must be still making money. 

Is Bachmann serious in making models or just toys? If these issues were only evident on there cheap Big Hauler range, so be it. But on a Spectrum loco, no way! 

It would be great if they were bullet proof like an old United HO brass steamer! 

We all want to buy Bachmann, and heaps including myself do because an Accucraft brassy is out of the price range for a 1:20.3 loco. 

Is there a way that MLS could help Bachmann iron out these quality and design issues? Could we put our energy into helping rather than complaining?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/18/2009 8:00 PM

Is there a way that MLS could help Bachmann iron out these quality and design issues? Could we put our energy into helping rather than complaining? 

No.
I have it in print that they are handling everything in-house.

There were folks who worked diligently to get the problems resolved, and it looked like the improvements were taking hold in a mind-set.

But then, someone decided that THEY were the Oracle of Wisdom and Truth, went out of their way to silence those who worked to get the issues resolved, and took it upon himself to handle it all.

Some of the major flaws listed above can most likely be directly attributed to him.

Please note I did not mention any names.

Unless something major changes, personal experience is "help" from outside simply goes in the circular file.

The only thing that seemed to get their attention was reviews, and that is one of the things the person not named made sure would not happen again.

There is another involvement that is sure to provide a level of control, but that one isn't going to be discussed.
However, it has become rather obvious now.

My attitude could change, but that will take a phone call from someone fairly high up stating things have changed, and the specifics of the change, but you know, I am not holding my breath.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

It was worth putting it out there. 

It’s a pitty that Bachmann appear to be not interested in fixing the problems, is this basically what your saying Curmudgeon? 

Maybe we need to make the MLS Model Company…


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Serious Toys, yep that covers it. No really 
Oh Boy! no more too small rooms, no cookie cutter plywood subroadbeds, no miles of wire... Ah yes, step out into the great outdoors and then price track 
From HO and 30"r curves that worked in On3 as backwoods curvature to huge 10' DIAMETER G $cale ...then one day... it clicked ... G is 1:24, 60"r, so O 1:48 = 30"r and HO 15" r. 

Compared to HO I'm running on 15" radius track... yes it is toylike, compressions and concessions are everywhere... Quality Control...? naw ya got it backwards it's Chineese Quailty and the value they add is cheap labor. Master craftsmen? Nope there are still learning the trade... 

Standards are what silly westerners want, yet we complain when the price goes up... so they cut other corners..... and so it goes....


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd be a much happier camper if Bachmann told the truth in their advertising. 

You know. 
Something along the lines of; 
*"We had to cut a few corners to get the thing to the price point our market surveys said the market would accept." 
"But, never mind the quality - Feel the width".* 

.......and pigs might fly.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/18/2009 9:18 PM
It was worth putting it out there. 

It’s a pitty that Bachmann appear to be not interested in fixing the problems, is this basically what your saying Curmudgeon? 

Maybe we need to make the MLS Model Company… 



I didn't say that.
On purpose.

They are handling all of it in-house.

That means, to me, that any "fixes" need to be generated by them, developed by them, paid for by them, transmitted to their adoring public by them.

They are the ones who need to find out there actually is a problem.

In the past, problems started becoming evident upon evaluation/review.
Now they need to wait for someone in Service to decide there is a problem (often masked by simply replacing locomotives), transmit that data with failure rates and suggested procedures to repair the failure, for the Director of Product Development to admit the data is correct, to do the work necessary to generate the parts to repair the items, for the head office to get the information out to the same adoring public, and for folks to mail their locomotives in (at their expense, of course), have them repaired and returned, hopefully within the same calendar year.

In the past, problems were located (and not glossed over with "there is no problem" or "it is a design consideration"), field fixes generated and tried, to ensure the average unskilled hobbyist could take the unit apart and perform the repairs necessary, updating as needed (like, fingernail polish will work in a pinch if your local Wal-Mart can't find 222 Lock-Tite), so the locomotives would function, service was not overloaded, the consumer would not have to pay shipping and chance the loss of the locomotive or severe damage in shipment.

No, Bachmann is quite interested in fixing the problems.
Unfortunately, there have been nay-sayers gathered around convincing them there is no problem.

It is a system that from this perspective is difficult to work in.

Maybe you will have better success!


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Crumudeon, sorry to put words in you month, your information makes for interesting thoughts. Some of the problems documented on MLS should be picked up in pre production and it seems this once did happen. I can’t comment directly on the mallet as I do not own one, but I have other Bachmann locos. 

You are right, if they discover a problem, or told about a problem they should fix it and pay for it. Car companies are generally good at this… I think (not to sure if that’s a good example???) 

Success, I bet we all hoped for some! 

Tony, if only we were told the truth… It would be great to see the documentation and design notes on stupid things like the cuff circuitry on the K-27.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Steam5 
When you have been around Large Scale as long as Dave and I have, 20 + years, you will understand that the hobby business is just as riven with petty politics and "spin" as.........well .... real politics is. 

Every business in the World does it too, so why we are surprised when the hobby industry does the same? 

The crooks and spin merchants have been in charge for so long now it is going to be hard to change. But change we have to. 
Until all industry stops with the BS and hype and tells the truth in advertising, we will never solve the real problems behind the current World ecoomic downturn. 
Shoddy QC is just another symptom of the "She'll be right mate" attitude.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/18/2009 10:36 PM

You are right, if they discover a problem, or told about a problem they should fix it and pay for it. Car companies are generally good at this… I think (not to sure if that’s a good example???) 





No Car companies are NOT a good example. I bought a new truck ONCE. Had the horn button fail within the first 30 days. They ordered adn replaced parts requiring two days off work to get fixed at my expense. One to diagnose teh problem and one to get it repaired weeks later when teh parts came in. Same problem re-occured within 60 days again. Oops sorry those parts are no longer under warranty. The replacement parts were only warranted for 30 days. The rest of the truck is still under warranty EXCEPT the replaced parts which broke the same way teh original ones did. Sound familiar?


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Rant on:










This all just my personal opionion but...*all of this would be moot* if they simply did there own product test & evaluation of preproduction models to iron out these problems BEFORE they release the product, one thing about EPL (before the boys ran it onto the ditch) that you HAD to give them ALOT of credit for, was the rather exhaustive testing program, including a hellish torture test track that allowed the product to be tested in just about any condition it might encounter in the real world, *before* any product was released it was tested and modified so it ran perfectly out of the box and ran like a swiss watch for most all of its lifetime, theres a REASON mant of them older LGB models are still around and running and why EPL had such a fanatic product loyalty. I DONT see this same loyalty when it comes to Bmann and THAT is something they should be REALLY concerned about, yet they do not seam too concerned about it. I my personal opinion it seams like there are two issues at work here, one is a real QC issue with there CHinese manufacturing, the level of quality has really been helter skelter, its like these were being produced in Russia and the run quality depends on whether they were built before they broke out the vodka bottles or after. There is a REAL market opportunity here for anyone who can market a good quality and affordable (not necessarily cheap) 1/20 product that could take market share from Bachmann. I find the notion of purchasing a $700 locomotive that broken out of the box absolutly insane as a business model. If one in 100 new cars were to break down within days or hours of being driven off the lots, there woiuld be total **** to pay for the manufacturer, anyone remember the Yugo? I suspect this is one reason why Bachmann is trying hard to keep alot of this in-house, the last thing they want to get out is that they have a serious long term problem with there current production factories ability or willingness to assure quality control and that they are in a sense powerless to fix it as long as their Chinese Overlords ignore the issue, and that I think is one other major part of what is going on. Again going back to the EPL model, while we have to wait along time for any new product to reach market yet Bmann seams heel bent for leather to get product onto the selves regardless of whether its actually ready for the consumer, I know, trying to cover production costs as quickly as possible and all that, but how much money are they losing having to repair/replace defective models, the labor man-hours alone to deal with must be something fierce on the bottom line. So it takes a year longer to bring that product to market, how long have we been waiting for Aristos standard gauge Connie? if that delay means it runs great out of the box, and you dont have to spend the next year doing hush-huish ninja repair-replacement all while the internet is screaming bout bad experiences? how is this any better than simply testing it in-house to iron out problems before the product is released? I dont get the logic behind the mentality... jeez, is this rocket science or something? 


Rant off:


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

As far as I can see it's rather basic, as long as the consumers that purchase the product, that the companies place there on the shelves, continue to do so, then nothing is going to change.

The only other possibility is if for some reason some up-start company believes they can produce the product in the manner you've described, with an acceptable proft margin, and in fact does so, thus rapidly grabbing market share, again there will be no change.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

We make a mistake by calling shoddy workmanship "Chinese workmanship." The Chinese are totally capable of high quality workmanship. It is "Bachmann workmanship." 

Calling it "Chinese" makes it sound like if they switched their manufacture to Japan, or Mexico, or Florida all of the problems would go away. They wouldn't. The problem is a Bachmann philosophy that would follow them where ever they went. If they moved to Florida there manufacturing facility would be full of high school dropouts earning minimum wage and using no QC at all. We could then call it "Florida workmanship" but we would be wrong again. 

(No knock on Florida)


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Possibly. 
Except they really have no role model to follow. 
Around these parts, we know from experience what works and what doesn't, and have a pretty good idea of what "quality" actually is. 
Since Bachmann is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Kader Industries IN China, it's probably "Kader Quality".


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I see the problem as having two causes. The first, as CCSII expressed so well, is that the problem is NOT with the manufacturer. It is with the people who design and who are responsible for the product, like Bachmann, USAT, Aristo, etc. The manufacturer will follow the procedures defined by these folks. The factory where many of these models are manufactured is capable of turning out as good quality a product as any factory.

The second problem is us the consumer. It is clear that price is the main driving factor in our culture. This is true in all types of products, not just model trains. If I can produce and sell a product for less than my competition, it will sell, even though it has a bunch of problems. Now you can say that no, we are willing to pay a premium for a quality product, but in reality, those of us who think that way are in a small minority.

Ed


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## snowshoe (Jan 2, 2008)

Its a good thing all these rock climbing companies dont follow in Bachmanns foot steps. All us climbers would be dead. LOL

Thats why I am a true HLW fan. I have not had any problems with them yet.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By CCSII on 05/19/2009 10:43 AM
We make a mistake by calling shoddy workmanship "Chinese workmanship." The Chinese are totally capable of high quality workmanship. It is "Bachmann workmanship." 

Calling it "Chinese" makes it sound like if they switched their manufacture to Japan, or Mexico, or Florida all of the problems would go away. They wouldn't. The problem is a Bachmann philosophy that would follow them where ever they went. If they moved to Florida there manufacturing facility would be full of high school dropouts earning minimum wage and using no QC at all. We could then call it "Florida workmanship" but we would be wrong again. 

(No knock on Florida) 




Your Sir, are exactly right! Both their manufacturing and development processes need to be changed. And even if they don't have direct control over either one, they can insist on and enforce the proper changes be made, IF they have enough clout with the people they are dealing with. If it is all internal, then they have no excuse.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I need to make a few things clear with my comments on the 2-6-6-2T. 

The facts are that the loco was supplied: 
1. With the crank pin boss bent on one rear engine driver. This did not happen in transit. 
2. All the drive rod screws in both engines were loose when the loco was supplied. 
3. The screws holding the motor in on the front engine fell out in front of my customer as I was demonstrating the loco. 
4. The loco is made in China. 

It is speculation on my part as to why all the screws were left loose on the assembly line. 

What I can say is that when the drive rod screws on the rear engine were correctly tightened such that the engine would not run at all, it could not possibly pass a QC test. 
Likewise the front engine. After replacing the motor mount screws in the front engine and correctly tightening them, the front engine was stiff and did not start at the same time as the rear engine and could not achieve the same speed at a given voltage. 

My comment *"just another piece of badly put together junk from China"* does not condemn all Chinese made stuff. 
I would like to pint out that I know of *NO* 1st run Bachmann Spectrum locos that have not required something to be fixed to get them to function correctly out of the box.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Plus, one has to remember the major difference in Bachmann from others. 
They are wholly-owned by Kader, a Chinese Company. 

No matter the "spin" placed upon such an arrangement, bottom line is, Bachmann PROBABLY has less control over product and the quality thereof than other companies who contract with Kader (or others) to build their product. 

Since the current (and for some time) US Consumer Mantra has been "where can I get "X" the cheapest?", obviously the expense of QC goes out the proverbial window.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/19/2009 6:04 PM

Since the current (and for some time) US Consumer Mantra has been "where can I get "X" the cheapest?", obviously the expense of QC goes out the proverbial window.


True, and a few of us that will pay extra bucks for a simple Made in the US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Switzerland, etc. label.

So over ten years ago I paid a couple hunderd dollars for my Swiss coffee maker. Could I get one from China for $20, sure, but how many ones would I have to buy in the same time period of the Suisse one?

Toasters? My 1961 Sunbeam Automatic is still ticking.

I could go on.....but I have to finish mowing....1987 John Deere and a 1976 LawnBoy....


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

one finger with no caps.....

accucraft or aster...

save our pennies to get quality


reward companies who take the time to do a good job.


gg


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/19/2009 7:26 PM
one finger with no caps.....

accucraft or aster...

save our pennies to get quality


reward companies who take the time to do a good job.


gg




While the format is not 100% right, maybe the ultimate Large Scale Haiku?


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

But, all you have to do is make up your mind. 
If you don't mind re-engineering stuff, putting new gearboxes and/or motors in, making sure all the screws are tight before you ever put it on the track, then you will know what you are getting into. 

When I was doing this, I didn't mind. It was actually quite interesting to figure out what was wrong and what it was going to take to fix it. 

What was always a royal pain was the opposition. 

I decided after 43 years to actually obtain an old Jaguar. 
I knew pretty much what I was getting into. 
Would I recommend it to someone with no experience in older cars and especially older British cars? 
No way. 

But, it is a challenge.....especially when the tachometer goes to zero. 

But, fixed that. 

I really am more than content not doing what I did. 
It took for ever sometimes. 
Sorting the issues with the K, with write-ups, photos, suggested fixes, arguments, arguments, arguments, then fitting a review in took 30 days. 

I can spend my evenings doing something else now.


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## gdancer (Feb 19, 2008)

Boy! Was considering a K-27 (with improvements, of course!) or a Consolidation as an addition to my currently total LGB locomotive group







, but I'm too old and have much less patience to deal with all the issues of mechanical problems; DCC and sound just about wore me out!







I just will not buy something I've got to reengineer. I need something my 8 grandchildren can operate without having to worry about "screws dropping out", etc. I need something that will _run_. I know that I may even be in the minority among LS'ers in that I want to run, not tinker; but I gave many years to tinkering and minute building in HO and N scale. Now, I just want to enjoy with my grandkids watching the trains _run_. And, after reading this thread, I have to say....thanks for the warnings! I asked last year about K-27's and got an earful. Apparently, the deficiencies of the K-27 are continuing to be repeated. Sorry, Charlie! (errr B'mann). I'm keeping my $$$$!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

A story was related to me once many years ago about an official at Bachmann that went to the factory in China and while there, showed the workers how much to tighten the screws on the engine mounts for the 2-8-0's. Funny thing though, by the time he had gotten to the end of the line the first worker had already gone back to putting them in "loose!" If this story is true (and I can definitely believe that it is) then "Chinese" workmanship is _exactly _what I meant to say! The problem that I have is that Bachmann in Philly seems to go along with it without doing anything about it! Not wise! Not wise at all....


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

There are more stories, a lot more. 

Like I said, a wholly-owned subsidiary has less clout than outsiders contracting with the factory. 

This could get interesting.


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## CCSII (Jan 3, 2008)

Steve 

You missed my point entirely. I just had a new tire put on my car on Saturday. This morning my wife found one of the lug nuts sitting in the driveway. Is that US workmanship? No, I chose a shop that I will not return to. Bachmann (Kader) could choose a different shop, they don't.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By CCSII on 05/20/2009 2:05 PM
Steve 

You missed my point entirely. I just had a new tire put on my car on Saturday. This morning my wife found one of the lug nuts sitting in the driveway. Is that US workmanship? No, I chose a shop that I will not return to. Bachmann (Kader) could choose a different shop, they don't. 

They can't.
Kader Industries in Hong Kong IS the parent company, also recently purchased Sanda-Khan (makers of, oh, USA and Aristo, to name some).
Bachmann is a wholly-owned subsidiary.
They cannot look for another "shop".
Kader is in business to make lots of money.
If their wholly-owned subsidiaries went looking for another shop, then Kader would not be making the big bucks off us stupid Americans who spend their money buying toys, while the Industrious Chinese are busy making money.

Bachmann has no choice.
There are parts of this entire scenario that won't be discussed that center around a wholly-owned subsidiary having no choice.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

LOL

Good comments ! 

gg


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/19/2009 8:40 PM
But, all you have to do is make up your mind.

/// Curm,

I chose your post from all because it best fits my frame of mind.

I've been away from the board for a few days. I'd have skipped this thread save I saw a number of your replies, and thought, "Aw, WTH..."

Perhaps a week after joining a certain board that Generates Radishes in lieu of technical information, I was informed that I should seek a hobby I could afford by a member thereof.

I subsequently found a different board. This one.

For more than two years I've been reading, asking questions, collecting information--and noting the howling concerning Bachmann. Others complain about more expensive brands, but everyone keeps buying.

Everyone complains, but no one does the single most effective thing possible under the circumstances: Sit On Your Money Or Spend It Elsewhere.

Bachmann builds cheap stuff. Just like Harbor Freight sells cheap stuff. If you know what you're looking at in the second instance, that is not necessarily a debit. You can usually modify, fix, or redesign a given power tool. (Their edged tools are hopeless, save for the saw blades--and those are marginal.) At worst, either one gets you up and going--and learning.

The memories of the 'good old days' overlook the fact that in those days, people could tell a file from a screwdriver. That the purchase of a power tool wasn't dismissed as "Yeah, but I can have my engine/whatever *now* instead of spending money on a power tool." And then learning how to use it. That soldering wasn't a Dark Art.

I almost forgot: this desire for QC is nearly eqivalent to, "Why doesn't someone else take care of these problems?"

Captives of lethargy.

BTW, I _still_ lust for an old Norton.

Les




*If you don't mind re-engineering stuff, putting new gearboxes and/or motors in, making sure all the screws are tight before you ever put it on the track, then you will know what you are getting into. 
*
*When I was doing this, I didn't mind. It was actually quite interesting to figure out what was wrong and what it was going to take to fix it. 
*
*What was always a royal pain was the opposition. 
*
I decided after 43 years to actually obtain an old Jaguar. 
I knew pretty much what I was getting into. 
Would I recommend it to someone with no experience in older cars and especially older British cars? 
No way. 

*But, it is a challenge*.....especially when the tachometer goes to zero.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Steve Stockham  on 05/20/2009 1:08 PM
A story was related to me once many years ago about an official at Bachmann that went to the factory in China and while there, showed the workers how much to tighten the screws on the engine mounts for the 2-8-0's. Funny thing though, by the time he had gotten to the end of the line the first worker had already gone back to putting them in "loose!" If this story is true (and I can definitely believe that it is) then "Chinese" workmanship is _exactly _what I meant to say! The problem that I have is that Bachmann in Philly seems to go along with it without doing anything about it! Not wise! Not wise at all.... 








Chinese people are pretty much exactly like Americans in terms of "workmanship"--there is a great craft tradition, and some very high quality work in China, and then there are many instances of unskilled people paid to produce as much as possible in the shortest possible time. It's not that they are "chinese," it's that the manufacturer is trying to bring the product to market as cheaply as possible.I remember Detroit's quality control in the 70s--there were no Chinese people involved, it was all-American and mostly


My daughter is Chinese by birth, and it's hard not to see these kind of comments as a slur.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Really, and this has been discussed for years, the only way, and I mean ONLY way to get the quality up to where it should be (and, an MSRP of $1400 or so literally demands some oversight into the QC black hole) is to vote with your wallet. 

That statement of Stupid Americans was a quote. 
Not direct, or I'd publish who said it, but rather I was told that by the person receiving it. 

One of the factors entering into my decision not to buy any more. 

Norton, huh? 
Commando?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Curmudgeon on 05/20/2009 3:33 PM
Really, and this has been discussed for years, the only way, and I mean ONLY way to get the quality up to where it should be (and, an MSRP of $1400 or so literally demands some oversight into the QC black hole) is to vote with your wallet. 

That statement of Stupid Americans was a quote. 
Not direct, or I'd publish who said it, but rather I was told that by the person receiving it. 

One of the factors entering into my decision not to buy any more. 

Norton, huh? 
Commando? 








3 of them suckers. 68(?) to 72. Now, I'm speaking of the Jeep Commandos. The Norton was the one with the blue/white tank--I forget what else, 2 cyl. Ca 1968. I actually _passed _on one because the guy wanted $500, not running. Single. Money in my pocket. Duhhh.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Accucraft has its problems. The Live steam forum is full of people tinkering with their Asters

It seems to me there are two issues here--one is that people in the hobby like to tinker and "improve"--there have been a bunch of threads criticizing people who just want to "run it out of the box." Every single loco on my layout has been apart and attacked with the soldering iron and the styrene glue many times




The other is that Sander-Kan has an effective monopoly--they have large manufacturing facilities, they can generate new products quickly, they can crank it out for cheap, and they know the business. Does Aristo really have a choice, realistically? Or USAT? 

Hartland is still making them in the USA. I wish they made stuff that was closer to what I want, or that they were doing some new product development instead of reusing old molds


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Every company has a choice of where to go for a build. We the American public want cheap so here is China. Get what you pay for. Maybe if we would be willing to pay a few more dollars for a Good American made product then we could get it made here instead of there. Later RJD


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Crumudgeon, I believe Les is refiring to a Norton motor bike. Is right Les?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Low,

To dismiss the Chinese is a grave mistake. Most of the cool little innovations I've run across of late come from over there. Our fat pigs are too busy badgering the government for protection to try to outbuild them, let alone bother to outthink them.

Chinese stupid? Ever take a look at some of their weapons?

Priorities. Always priorities--which this country's business leaders have not only lost, they jeer at it. Detracts from the bottom line, you know.

Of all the countries I worry about, the Chinese are at the top of the list.

And the only one on it.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/20/2009 4:03 PM
Crumudgeon, I believe Les is refiring to a Norton motor bike. Is right Les?








Is right.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

The Chinese are the new world economic power. They own most of America's bonds if I remember correctly. 

gg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Les on 05/20/2009 4:05 PM
Low,

To dismiss the Chinese is a grave mistake. Most of the cool little innovations I've run across of late come from over there. Our fat pigs are too busy badgering the government for protection to try to outbuild them, let alone bother to outthink them.

Chinese stupid? Ever take a look at some of their weapons?

Priorities. Always priorities--which this country's business leaders have not only lost, they jeer at it. Detracts from the bottom line, you know.

Of all the countries I worry about, the Chinese are at the top of the list.

And the only one on it.

Les


I do recall one of their newest diesel-electric submarines.
"Song" class, I think.
They found it at periscope depth.
Sent divers in, found the entire crew.....dead.

But, like the old Soviet Empire, they have a LOT of them.

I said Norton, asked Commando.
Model of Norton.

750, I think.

Started out with a 650 BSA Hornet.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I won’t be spending a huge amount on Accucraft any time soon. To get 1:20.3 I have to buy Bachmann, and that’s all… right? 

I would rather have an engine then no engine (in 1:20.3), so that’s why I have purchased my Bachmann locomotives. 

As I’m new to large scale (not model trains) I haven’t got round to building a permanent out door railway and really running my locomotives ‘hard.’ I’m sure the Bachmann locos will need some extra TLC to keep them on the tracks, such as replacement gears, replacement bogies…. 

But maybe I will have to spend MSRP of $1400, and I think I’m okay with that. 

Alan


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Just got off the Hartland Locomotive Works site. They have an interesting offering so my question is: 

Can you purchase their US manufactured product and run it out of the box and without loose screws? 

I really do need "out-of-box" capability. 


gg


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I think maybe you misunderstood. 
The MSRP is high enough, without needing to add $200 gearboxes or $50 motors, or trying to locate tender trucks that will work, or $130 Shay trucks, or making u-joint mounts for the gearbox of a Climax. 

A whole lotta folks are incapable of installing gearboxes, motors, trucks, or even new axle gears. 

Seems someone's statement of not having to visit high-priced installers was a bit off the mark, eh? 

I wonder why my 70-year-old 0 scale 2-rail locomotives still have factory gears? 
And trucks? 
And rods? 

I am not trying to encourage anyone to"do" or "not do" anything. 
I'm just telling you that I am done buying. 

If I can't fix it, it goes on the basement floor and sits, along with all the others that aren't worth the effort. 
Probably get scrapped for parts.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Guess the reason your stuff is still running may be that it was made in the USA. Later RJD


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I know that, and now you know that. 
My Varney, PennLine, Mantua, English, and early Athearn are all still running, too. 
"Made in USA" might just have something to do with that, ya think?


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

......or made in Germany. 

To a standard and not just a price!!!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

BTW, Mister Walsham...... 
If you want to personally thank someone for the QC issues on your Oscar (Meyer), make certain you plug the video into your cup-holder and view the very last bit on "Technical Advisors".


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

*gg, 

I bought The Jupiter 4-4-0 off my dealer's shelf, have run it for 4 years. Did run the tires off it trying to pull too many cars up too steep a grade in triple digit heat. Gel superglue cured that. All screws still tight, even after the evil not-so-grand nephews derailed her in the tunnel and knocked the pilot truck wheels off, yep more glue and no problems.*

*She's got metal wheels and tender pickup as well as loco p.u.'s so switches are a minor hic cup (could be Aristo's frog) sometimes, but tracks well. I use aristo cars and their coupler was an easy install.*

*Some have said that Hartman will replace the drivers, but I don't see the need, if they come off again I'll try some E6000 glue. *

*I'm happy with mine, but I don't consider them narrow gauge, rather smaller Olde Tyme standard ga. locos. They are 1:24 which makes building for them very easy as 1/2" = 1'*

*If you want the larger bolder look, then it's Bachs or ????*



*Hey Mr Peabody where are we going today?*

*Well Sherman, I have the wayback machine set to 1969 and the birthplace of quality brass trains...*

*My father brought home a Tenshado GN S2 4-8-4 in HO scale. Tenshado was one of the premier Japanese manufacturer's of Brass lococs. She ran ok, but with a NWSL gearbox she was smooth....*

*There have always been after market improvements...*

*Regarding the Chinese and QC; I'm not sure how a communist society can become a model economic community. Our 'made in' migrated there because of wall street's demand to lower cost to raise profit, not because quality would improve. The problem is systematic. Some lowly plant manager bucks for a raise by making a plastic cheaper and substitutes ingrediants, later trucks crack...who ya gonna blame?* 
John


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Who are you going to blame??? 

Easy. 
The people overseeing the manufacturing process and their "Technical Advisors".


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

wooow, 
what is the topic here? can I join in???


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Who does one blame ??????

Pure and simple .... capitalistic greed combined with a consumer's drive for lower prices. 

ie) Please check out Walmart and their super-transports .... pacific rim to West USA. 


We, the consumer, create our own woes as it applies to this hobby. 

I rest my case.... 


GG 

Smilies to follow....









EDIT and PS... John ... love your photo ...


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Marty. 

Welcome in and draw up a chair for a front row spectator spot. 

Just be careful not to name the "Technical Advisor" here.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Not that easy... remember bad milk? Bad pet food? Bad Drywall? 
The country doesn't have Standards and laws or enforcement against shoddy practices. If action comes it's long after the fact. 


My plastic analogy was a good example; the co. can order a specific grade, but will they get what they ordered or a cheaper knock-off? When lowering cost is the driving influence and maybe bribes and influence peddling to the Commie Party.... and corruption abounds, what guanantee is there? 

Perhaps educating the work force and teaching them that they are making serious models and not expensive toys would help production. There would have to be a push to advertise quality vs. toy trains. Good workers paid more and bad let go. If the Party Boss agrees... Yes it boils down to pride in workmanship... 

If these companies were US, AU, GB, Ger, etc... where quality is a expected, then your complaints would hold water. Not yet in China and other developing economies... it's coming, but going through growing pains. 

Buyer Beware... used to be heard in this country too.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Buyer beware is all very well. 

The problem is the Company has gone out of its way to muzzle critical reviews in the past. 
If those critical reviews had been taken into account and acted upon positively, instead of listening to "Technical Advisors", the Company might just have been able to avoid this current schemozzle. 
Now, any self respecting merchant should, but probably cannot, take the time to check every 2-6-6-2T for loose motor mounting screws *BEFORE* they ship the locos to unsuspecting customers. 
That should have been done at the factory during the QC checking process.


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

EDIT and PS... John ... love your photo ... 

gg



Thanks, taken this year those are delton cars behind her.

I'm not aware of any HLW forum where the product is disected, so my opinion was just that.

Other than a touch of graphite in squeaky truck wheel journals I haven't lubed her either....

Worth the money. 

This bridge leads to the curved trestle, the bench in the background is above the tunnel. 


John


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/20/2009 7:29 PM
Buyer beware is all very well. 

The problem is the Company has gone out of its way to muzzle critical reviews in the past. 
If those critical reviews had been taken into account and acted upon positively, instead of listening to "Technical Advisors", the Company might just have been able to avoid this current schemozzle. 
Now, any self respecting merchant should, but probably cannot, take the time to check every 2-6-6-2T for loose motor mounting screws *BEFORE* they ship the locos to unsuspecting customers. 
That should have been done at the factory during the QC checking process.


Yes Tony alot should be done at the factories, just as they used to be, before the market drove them to cheap.

Yet they are in a country where Saving Face is more important than admitting mistakes, learning from them and correcting them.

That's all.

Be Blessed.

John


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05/20/2009 7:48 PM

Yet they are in a country where Saving Face is more important than admitting mistakes, learning from them and correcting them.

That's all.

Be Blessed.

John



A co worker was a manager in a company that was a household name in an "energy" business.

One of the top brass's wives had a Rolls Silver Spur.

Coming home on a long trip, there was a bang, one of the halfshafts in the rear end snapped.

She called RR of America. A flatbed with another fueled ready to go Spur was onboard, the swap was made, she was sent on her multi state trip way.

A few days later, she gets a call, a flatbed is coming with her Roller and to collect the other Spur.

She signs some paperwork with the driver, waiting for an invoce, none was given.

Returning into the house, she makes a phone call to RR of America, asking to speak to them about the payment for the situation.

_"Madam, Rolls Royce halfshafts do not break. Good day."_

One can save face and deal with quality problems in one breath, but there better be some backing to the save.

What happens without customer backing? Ask the other co-worker whose brand new Ford sat for a few weeks waiting for a simple bearing........


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05/20/2009 7:37 PM

EDIT and PS... John ... love your photo ... 

gg



Thanks, taken this year those are delton cars behind her.

I'm not aware of any HLW forum where the product is disected, so my opinion was just that.

Other than a touch of graphite in squeaky truck wheel journals I haven't lubed her either....

Worth the money. 

This bridge leads to the curved trestle, the bench in the background is above the tunnel. 


John











Sent an email to them asking for Canadian distribution lists. Squeeking is the least of my needs.. I have DCS (MTH) and will build for mainline purposes... DCC and the cuties I need to stock up on... just acquired a Bachman 4-4-0 (Need a true "general") 

Nice layout... like many others here I need to develop mine to allow for wide radius MTH coupled with inner radius options...


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Spule 4 on 05/20/2009 8:11 PM
One of the top brass's wives had a Rolls Silver Spur.

Yes sir, nice story, but might I inquire as to price of one, or is this another one of those "if you have to ask, don't bother" items.

Considering total production for the Silver Spirit & Spur across 1980-1989 was 14,468, and this includes the extended limousine version too.

I'm sure that at say $25,000 per K-27 Bachmann would happily top that level of service too.


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm sure that at say $25,000 per K-27 Bachmann would happily top that level of service too.


I'll have two!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By steam5 on 05/20/2009 11:44 PM
I'm sure that at say $25,000 per K-27 Bachmann would happily top that level of service too.


I'll have two! 


I wouldn't.

When they have to lend you a Rolls Royce whilst the K-27 s being repaired, it will probably be one of those look alike fake RR's China is now producing.

http://www.autoblog.com/category/rolls-royce/










Either that or a fake K-27.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

It doesn't mater how you twist or turn it, the point of control still rests squarely on the shoulders of the consumer. As long as the percentage of the individuals interested in any given product, that are willing to part with their money to acquire that product, remains high enough to pay the freight on the 'return on investment' that the company producing the product is looking for. Then the company will continue to do just what it's doing.

As long as the consumer can't, or as I believe, simply refuses to accept what they already know (i.e. product isn't worth price being paid), which happens in way to many cases. This is nothing more than the individual letting desire override fact.

On the other hand, if the consumer refuses to accept a fair price for a given product. Then they'll have to accept the lack of the product in the market place.

As for companies keeping tight control on the general awareness of any perceived or actual defect in their product, I don't believe that that general business mind-set has changed any in the last 4,000+ years. I mean just why do you suppose the Greek adage 'Caveat Emptor' came about? Although, I think there are a great many individuals that have confused the previous with 'Credat Emptor', that'll teach them for not paying attention in language studies.


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## Spule 4 (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By SteveC on 05/20/2009 10:03 PM
Posted By Spule 4 on 05/20/2009 8:11 PM
One of the top brass's wives had a Rolls Silver Spur.

Yes sir, nice story, but might I inquire as to price of one, or is this another one of those "if you have to ask, don't bother" items.

Considering total production for the Silver Spirit & Spur across 1980-1989 was 14,468, and this includes the extended limousine version too.

I'm sure that at say $25,000 per K-27 Bachmann would happily top that level of service too.



Exactly.......


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/20/2009 6:44 PM
Who does one blame ??????

Pure and simple .... capitalistic greed combined with a consumer's drive for lower prices. 



/// GG, 'Captalism' is an economic system. And only that: a system. To say 'capitalistic greed' indicates that only capitalists are greedy. I suggest that greed is inherent in all men and only waits the chance to exercise it. 

We, the consumer, create our own woes as it applies to this hobby.

///And as an aside, where is it written that bargain-hunting is sinful? I often see that sentiment expressed on this boad. Anyone, after a modicum of thought, ought to conclude that newbies in any hobby tend to be predated upon by the oldtimers. This serves two mutally-beneficial services: the Old Boys can get rid of their old junk, and the Newbies learn a lot more than they expected. Perspective, Old Fellow. It's all in the perspective.

/// To the extent we continue to purchase known shoddy products for immediate use, absolutely. But there is a niche for cheap, shoddy products, and that is the rank newcomer who just does know the difference between a diesel and a steamer, but knows he wants to create a model RR. There are not so many hobbies--off the top of my head and in my experience--that actually call for expanding one's general knowledge base in so many different directions. For these folks, a cheap beginner set and a board like this can open up a whole new world. And the members of this board need to keep words like 'crap', 'junk', 'toy', out of the discussion with such folks. They'll find out soon enough where they are, price-tagwise. It's just as easy to post, "Well, that particular engine has a weak gearset, and here's what you can do to work around it...," rather than, "When you buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk." 

I rest my case.... 


/// And I, mine.









Les 
GG 

Smilies to follow....









EDIT and PS... John ... love your photo ...


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Total,

You posted '... what guanantee is there?'

After a lifetime of observation, the gaurantee is this: if you are born, you will pay taxes/kneecap money all of your working life, and then you will die.

Cheers,

Les


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Yo Les...

No arguments at this end

I rest my case once again... 


Smilies to follow


gg


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Posted By Les on 05/21/2009 2:03 PM
Total,

You posted '... what guanantee is there?'

After a lifetime of observation, the gaurantee is this: if you are born, you will pay taxes/kneecap money all of your working life, and then you will die.

Cheers,

Les



Kneecap? I've not heard that one before....

John


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

I have read all the posts and find that there is a lot to gripe about from all manufacturers. My sons LGB moguls both arrived with major problems and had to be sent back to the seller who sent back the same locos with no repairs made: after a second round he returned them for credit after a big hassle lasting for about six months. This was from a noted seller( you can email me for the name) He no longer does business with them or buy LGB products. Guys in my club are having all kinds of problems with the LGB Genises(sic) diesel. We support a layout at a childrens hospital, and the LGB motor blocks just don't hold up like they did in the old days. 


Stuff can be sent in for warranty repair(Nice if you don't have too) and I have had to send in Bachmann items and Aristo items over the years. Both do a great job on warranty service and pay the freight both ways within the specified time period. 



I will bet that if AMS makes a locomotive as complex as the K-27 or 2-6-6-2, they will be forced to make warranty repairs available right away, and will have some type of issue in the first three months after release!! They do make flat cars that warp in the sun!!


I remember six or seven years ago griping about quality, and not wanting locos that run like crap! TOC chewed me and others up and down for being unwilling to jump in and field strip our locos and making repairs before the the first run was ever made!! He felt that knowing how to make repairs was an expected part of the hobby and that I and others should not get into it if we wanted stuff to run right out of the box. He always was willing to make the repairs at a price though. Having said that, TOC has been very helpful to me on more than one occasion. But you cannot have your cake and eat it too. 


I want reviews from an unbiased source, will I get it, probably not. Guys like TOC are against super sockets because they do not want to lose business. I want super sockets for the ease of installation without sending it to a TOC. I feel with some kind of standard socket in the future, the sales of locos and aftermarket sound and controls will benefit. Kevins points are well taken, I was there, trying to get the HO stuff to run, some I never could!! TOC is aligined with Tony as a business and must support Tony, I have never heard TOC complain about Tony's product in any nasty and vicious way, as he has with Bachmann since his fallout with them. So Tony was unhappy, I say Tony just don't buy or support Bachmann products or any other locomotive manufacturer that you ever had a beef with, it is as simple as that, but you might go out of business!!


All being said and done, I will not buy any more loco's or rolling stock untill I hear, here or on other sites that they are always perfect right out of the box and won't break down ever, even if used for 12 to 14 hours per day for at least 10 years!! Grin Grin I have no affiliation with any manufacturer, magazine, or manufacturer of after market controls, or other product of any kind. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I IMHO believe that all manufacturers/installers of all types that use forums like MLS or any of the others, should start each post with a statement that identifies them as such, so that we will know their biases up front! rant over!! let the flames begin!!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

No flames, just some personal observations: 

I have not found a brand that I buy that does not need some form of "tweaking". Now, some more than others. I have bought very little LGB, but in terms of out of the box assembly and quality, I think they are tops, especially the made in Germany stuff. 

My experience - out of the box assembly / quality. 
LGB (limited) - rarely a problem
USA - hardly ever a problem except for "split axles" on older locos 
Bachmann - I have had very few problems out of the box. 
Aristo - in the last few years, more wiring and electrical problems, getting common. The steam locos often have loose drivers.
My experience - after running for a while.

LGB - rarely a problem
USA - only the split axles, easy and cheap to repair

Bachmann - split gears, loose screws, cracked plastic housings
Aristo - more broken wires, plating gone and steel wheels rusting, wheels coming loose on axles, destroyed valve gear.


My experience with service

LGB - (the repair center was walking distance) - took forever to fix things, but perfectly repaired.

USA - I have never had to send anything back, the only repair parts I have ever needed were axles, easily repaired or replaced
Bachmann - heard too many horror stories to return, and replacement parts easy to get, although have to buy assemblies sometimes $$

Aristo - too many people have sent things back 3-4 times and not repaired. They used to have a great reputation, but just ask a mallet owner



Regards, Greg


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 

Your post is hardly a flame, just a report of your personal experience or fears in the case of the Bachmann repair service, nothing wrong with that! Just thought I might mention my experience with Bachmann repair, I have a Spectrum 2-6-0 Mogul, and three years ago dropped it to a cememt floor from the top of a workbench and made thing worse by trying to catch it and failing!! Needless to say it became junk. The tender was trashed and the loco would not run having hit on the left side smashing things out of alignment, and breaking of lots of small things and parts in the process. I called in and told them what I had done, and was shocked when the woman I talked to said send it to us with a check for $25 (now higher) and we will evaluate it and fix it. I pointed out it was my fault due to stupidity and fumbling fingers, certainly no fault of Bachmann!! She said send it in. I did and got it back just under five weeks later, shipping paid by Bachmann. I could not believe my eyes, my mogul (D&RGW) was a brand new unit right out of a sealed box. After a day of disbelief I called and asked when I would get the bill. She said that there would be no charge as Bachmann reserved the right to either repair or replace the unit at their option. So when I had a problem a year later, with a Connie which quit running, I sent it in as well and got similiar service, It did take a little longer and they did replace the whole bottom of the loco. 

I would remove any aftermarket goodies before sending one in. If you have a decorated shell and let them know they will send the shell back if they replace the loco, which worked fine for a friend. 

I have a guy my club who paid over a $1000 for custom install of Batt & RC & sound from a professional installer. He has had to send it back twice due to failures, He feels trapped because he has no recourse except to go back to the same guy who did not seem to get it right the first or second time!! I have no personal experience with installers because I can't afford one, and thanks to most of the guys including you, am now able to do my own installs.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill, 
I am sure there are many people who have had excellent (and either free or low cost) from the Bachmann service department. 

I am certainly not criticising the Bachmann service department. They have always responded positively whenever I have to take advantage of their service. 
My complaint is with specific design faults with certain locos and the shoddy overall QC with many new locos. 

I am disappointed with a brand new loco that was delivered in a shoddy condition. Especially as the same loose motor screw problem has been known to be a common failure straight out of the box with the Connie. 
I can't usually afford to buy Large Scale locos for myself. But I do do get pretty well every one that has been released, through here at some stage. 
For example I have just finished my first three truck Shay install. I will get the write up done shortly. In a nutshell I am very impressed with it. As I should be, as it is the 4th go Bachmann have had at getting the Shay drives right. 

My grizzle is that now whenever I get another Mallet to install battery R/C in, I will have to go and dismantle it at my expense, and check for and fix the faults before I even start work on an install. 
I have to pay for that. 
I would not deliver it knowing it had faults that were built in. In my position would you deliver it? 

With respect, would you care to name the installer as general comments like yours simply tarnish all installers with the same brush.
If it was an authorised RCS/EVO installer I would like to know so I can prevent it happening again.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/22/2009 7:46 PM
Bill, 
I am sure there are many people who have had excellent (and either free or low cost) from the Bachmann service department. 

I am certainly not criticising the Bachmann service department. They have always responded positively whenever I have to take advantage of their service. 
My complaint is with specific design faults with certain locos and the shoddy overall QC with many new locos. 

I am disappointed with a brand new loco that was delivered in a shoddy condition. Especially as the same loose motor screw problem has been known to be a common failure straight out of the box with the Connie. 
I can't usually afford to buy Large Scale locos for myself. But I do do get pretty well every one that has been released, through here at some stage. 
For example I have just finished my first three truck Shay install. I will get the write up done shortly. In a nutshell I am very impressed with it. As I should be, as it is the 4th go Bachmann have had at getting the Shay drives right. 

My grizzle is that now whenever I get another Mallet to install battery R/C in, I will have to go and dismantle it at my expense, and check for and fix the faults before I even start work on an install. 
I have to pay for that. 
I would not deliver it knowing it had faults that were built in. In my position would you deliver it? 

With respect, would you care to name the installer as general comments like yours simply tarnish all installers with the same brush.
If it was an authorised RCS/EVO installer I would like to know so I can prevent it happening again.







Quite honestly Tony, my MTH triplex arrived with a shattered sub-base and MTH was quick to replace same... however I had to do the reno's.. In doing this I discovered two (2) stripped forward shell anchor screws that are now currently "siliconed" in place. Top it off is that the sub-base holds a lot of prototypical details that are rivoted or pressed in place. These items could not be replaced with the repair. 



MTH distributors are few and far between up here in my country. Canada does not exist in their eyes. 


Now, and as for out of the box Loco's and regardless of manufacturer I must say that I learned an experience here. Tinkering with a 1.6K CAD$ loco (take out with all additional expenses including exchange) is quite the experience... Is this required with this price tag attached??? 


Now... spend 6K on a loco and can one can expect a unit that will work "out of the box". ??????

This goes back to original comments on this forum...one gets what one pays for. Pay the bucks now or be prepared to tinker and repair later if not out of the box. 


My future world will top off and secure what I have invested in, build on some details and then "invest" in top grade product. Buy it once.... This top stuff will go well beyond MTH, Aristo, etc... 


Lilke I said ... buy it once. 




gg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/22/2009 7:46 PM
.... My grizzle is that now whenever I get another Mallet to install battery R/C in, I will have to go and dismantle it at my expense, and check for and fix the faults before I even start work on an install. 
I have to pay for that....





Tony - From a customer's point of view, that is great that you are willing to fix Bachmann's faults at your expense. But why not charge for your services? Most folks would certainly understand, and probably be grateful that you were aware of the problems and had the expertise to fix them on the spot.

I don't do installs, and this is a good example of why. Installing the electronics is a breeze. It is all the other possible problems (out of your control) that gobble up your time and money. (I now open myself up for a good lecture







)


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi Del. 

Dave and Don both have the same attitude. He refuses to let stuff out without "fixing" the faults. Usually without charge. 

That is one of the reasons why we want the *"she'll be right mate"* culture at Bachmann, changed.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, I sympathize, but still feel that it should be sent back, along with a personal complaint about the shoddy workmanship, even if your screaming customer isn't happy. If your customer buys a model with problems and will not allow you to send it back, then that customer should be willing to pay you for the time you spend making the model right. If enough do it they (Bachmann or others) will get the message. As much as I want a 2-6-6-2, I will not buy one until the next run, and then only if the reports from the various forums say that it is now OK. For me this is no different than buying the first year production of a car. I simply wait till the next years model comes out and the bugs are worked out. I have returned one loco to a seller, because it would no run right out of the box. The seller was, well, not happy and wanted me to send it in for repair. I did return it, and bought a different loco. I hope that dealer ranted to the maker about the problems they caused him. 


I will stand on my willingness to bet that AMS or any other manufacturer who builds complex locomotives, cannot deliver one that operates perfectly on the first run. Just read the board and you know I am right. It seems that steam from most manufacturers is much more troublesome than the diesels they make. Gee, Just like the prototype!! I would love to see better QC frpm the manufacturers, but because so many accept the existing problems, I don't think we will see it any time soon. We salavated forever waiting for the 2-6-6-2, so we gobbled them up when they finally came out only to find they have the same kinds of bugs as other first runs, and this is true of the other manufacturers as well, yet we still gobble them up!! Why? Just to be first?? BTW thanks for always making it clear that you are a manufacturer!!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry Bill, 
I disagree. 
It is not a viable proposition to send anything back to the USA from Australia, especially once it has been converted. As this one was. 
So perhaps the locos should be run for sometime before conversion? 
How long is long enough to make sure they are OK. 
Even if I did have it sent back they would likely just send another new one that would still have to be checked anyway before conversion. 

Bachmann build the cost of fixing "stuff" into the purchase price of their products. They don't care if some problems require after sale care and attention. 
What I am trying to do is get the problems fixed *BEFORE* the product leaves the factory. 
They don't respond to us, the consumers, being nice about it to them in private. In fact, the more private it is the better it suits them. 
The *ONLY* thing they understand is a big boot up the backside. In public. 

This thread is the metaphorical BIG BOOT!!!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It has been determined that too much information was provided.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It has been determined too much information was provided


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It has been determined that too much information was provided.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

TOC, 
I have read from day one every sickening post about the Ames Supersocket and all the trashing and bashing. I do understand the faults of that one. That is old news, what I said in my earlier post was that I would like a "future" socket, hopefully agreed to by all manufacturers which might become the standard. It sad to see your bitterness and anger show through on almost every post.You have let your anger get the best of you and you are not the old TOC who gladly helped me and others before the "socket" issue got in the way. I am sorry you wasted your time "educating me" about things I already know about. In no post have I ever said that I am happy with any current socket system as for waiting for a second run of the 2-6-6-2, it doesen't matter to me if one never comes, I just won't buy one. It won't break my heart, I have lots of kit bashing projects to do and other locos to run..............
I have Annies that have run like clockwork, and my Connies keep rolling along, yes, I bought the later runs, I waited on my railtruck as well, and it did not need the "fix". My mogul runs just fine as well!

I realize you mind is made up and that no socket will probably ever satisfy you! Other scales have standards why not ours.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

I suggest all personal comments be taken to email or PMs fellas. The public forums are no place for one on one duke-it-outs as you all well know by now.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Tony, To some extent it is the big boot as you say, but I am afraid it will not be nearly enough if you, I and others, keep accepting bad quality reguardless of manufacturer!! Every time you or anyone fixes a "new" loco reguardless of maker, it just send the wrong message. If manufacturers were flooded with returns they would realize that the cost of repairs and replacement is way more costly than doing better quality control at the factory. Maybe you should stop buying Bachmann units and let TOC do the work here in the US, where he can send them back more easily, then he can ship them to you. You are a great guy and I love all your how to installation pictures, I have used them many times for reference, when doing my own installs, but if things are so bad, you may be better off in a different business, like RC boats cars and planes, nothing complicated there and a much larger and more affordable market!!!


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Dwight, My email is easy to click on in my profile, It is probably time to set up some policies on what is or is not acceptable. I have remained silent for years and years, and I am not one to speak out. I do feel it is sad that it might be allowed for a favored few but not others. Some members steamroller over everyone else and it is tolerated, but object and it is personal!!

I forget who said it but "you never learn anything by listening to yourself talk" or in this case post: seems to say it all!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill. 
With respect. Get real. 
Do you have any idea what it costs to ship anything big like a loco to or from Australia and the USA? 

Please pay attention. I repeat. I don't buy Bachmann locos. I don't buy much of anything really. 
However, I do get to work on LS locos belonging to owners here in Australia. Just like Dave Goodson and Don Sweet get to work on the same locos in the USA. 

"Things" as you put it are not bad. 
Just that at the moment, there is one LS manufacturer who needs a big boot up the backside to try and jolt them into action and fix their design and quality control issues.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It has been determined that too much information was provided.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Dave, Tony and others who work for the accountibility of the LS Train Manufactures to the consumer please remember: 

Mark 6:4 

and 

Matt 7:6 

cale


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

It has been determined that too much information was provided.


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm swamped with information!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

The "supersocket" was a not-so-veiled-attempt to direct the Large Scale market towards DCC. While many of us have no problem with anybody that wants to go this route, we _do_ have a major problem with "consultants" that have pushed their agenda to the detriment of our particular branch of the hobby (that being r/c battery.) Every single criticism of this "scheme" has been documented and backed up with facts. It's not personal. If Tony or Dave were trying to shove something down our throats while systematically trying to eliminate any different option without any proven track record of success then I would be giving them just as much grief as I possibly could! One has to step back and look at the entire picture with a clear, dispationate and level head.
Tony has brought up a valid criticism! Bachmann's QC has been extremely sloppy! Whether this is their fault or Kader's is yet to be seen and I doubt if we will ever get the whole story. I realize that some people think that all we do is have a knee-jerk reaction to start b*tching anytime a DCC person posts something positive. Not so but there _is_ an agenda here and if we don't voice our displeasure then we have no reason to complain when we get something we don't want or need and that requires us to spend extra $$$ just to remove! This is a forum for airing these concerns and for a free exchange of ideas. That's what it's here for!


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By billsharron on 05/23/2009 7:58 AM
TOC, 
I have read from day one every sickening post about the Ames Supersocket and all the trashing and bashing. I do understand the faults of that one. That is old news, what I said in my earlier post was that I would like a "future" socket, hopefully agreed to by all manufacturers which might become the standard. It sad to see your bitterness and anger show through on almost every post.You have let your anger get the best of you and you are not the old TOC who gladly helped me and others before the "socket" issue got in the way. I am sorry you wasted your time "educating me" about things I already know about. In no post have I ever said that I am happy with any current socket system as for waiting for a second run of the 2-6-6-2, it doesen't matter to me if one never comes, I just won't buy one. It won't break my heart, I have lots of kit bashing projects to do and other locos to run..............
I have Annies that have run like clockwork, and my Connies keep rolling along, yes, I bought the later runs, I waited on my railtruck as well, and it did not need the "fix". My mogul runs just fine as well!

I realize you mind is made up and that no socket will probably ever satisfy you! Other scales have standards why not ours.




Bill,

I see from your mugshot that you wear glasses, even as I do. If you've increased the typeface so you can see better as you compose, are you aware how big the letters appear on the forum? By my tape measure, a capital letter is slightly more than 1/4" tall. And the print is bold, as it would necessarily be. Some people call this 'shouting'. In any case, it's difficult to read and understand.

Wonder if you're aware of the results? Some people don't read their own posts.

With all courtesy,
Les


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## Totalwrecker (Feb 26, 2009)

Les, 
Actually ALL CAPS is considered shouting. 
I can sit closer to the monitor when the print is big and bold! lol 

Personally Les, it's easier for me to read... than the tiny chicken skirtches... 

John


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Totalwrecker on 05/23/2009 4:00 PM
Les, 
Actually ALL CAPS is considered shouting. 
I can sit closer to the monitor when the print is big and bold! lol 

Personally Les, it's easier for me to read... than the tiny chicken skirtches... 

John









John,

I stand corrected--you're right about all caps. Bill's posts are big enough to seem like all caps, tho.









Actually, I find posting that size too big to read and difficult to 'catch the drift'. Of course I use glasses when reading the 'puter.

The 'chicken skritches' (haven't heard that word in awhile) are tough when I'm composing a post, glasses or not.

Les


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Les, You are right, I do have extremely poor eyesight. I cannot read most MLS posts without a magnifying glass, MLS was going to do somthing to allow us almost blind guys to at least make the print on our own computers larger. Nothing seems to work. Even using the IE text size does not increase the size of MLS posts. I was always glad when others increased the font size so I could read comfortably. I apologize to you if you were offended, I did not use all upper case as I recall. To any other person who was offended by my larger type I apologize as well. Probably why I don't post much, because of the severe eyestrain. I am trying a smaller font which I hope will be less offensive. 
but...............

Since I seem to be offending so many folks I will just play with my trains, rather than reading all the posts!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill... have you tried FireFox as a browser? I think the text zooming works much better... I can make it huge... it's also a faster, safer browser... 

Sorry for the derail... back to the asbestos underwear... 

Regards, Greg


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg,
Thanks for the tip, I actually downloaded it last November, but have never tried it. Being the old dog, I guess I have not tried to learrn the firefox browser. Too comfortable to learn new tricks. I will try it again very soon as the eyes aren't getting any better, might have to have a cornea transplant at least in one eye. I actually got into large scale because of my failing eyes!! 

Probably will need a full suit of asbestos armor to stay with MLS. Sad when you can't have respect for your opinion, but get trampled for expressing it!! Back to playing with trains!!

Many thanks for your help in the past, with my install problems and for this tip!!


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Greg, 
Wow, what a great tip. I opened up firefox and logged on to MLS clicked view and it works great !!
I can't thank you enough for it. Easy to manipulate sizes with control + & control- . I wish I had this tip back when MLS switched to the new servers and the print got so small in the forums!!! Guys and Gals with poor eyesight, I really recommend firefox, it is a free download.

Only problen is now I may get online more, not sure if that is good or bad!!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Great Bill, I'm glad to help. You aren't the only guy that needs larger text! You should see me wearing an opti-visor to work on my Z scale! 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By billsharron on 05/23/2009 8:05 PM
Les, You are right, I do have extremely poor eyesight. I cannot read most MLS posts without a magnifying glass, MLS was going to do somthing to allow us almost blind guys to at least make the print on our own computers larger. Nothing seems to work. Even using the IE text size does not increase the size of MLS posts. 





CTRL+ increases the size of text in both Internet Explorer and FireFox, at least on my PC.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

You are right Del, but in my experience, IE does not zoom text on all pages, FireFox seems to do a better job for me. 

Regards, Greg


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 05/24/2009 9:32 AM
You are right Del, but in my experience, IE does not zoom text on all pages, FireFox seems to do a better job for me. 

Regards, Greg

I only did a quick test on IE. I never actually use it. Nothing but FireFox for me.


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

In regards to MS/Internet Explorer and the text size, it all depends on just how the code for the web pages are written. In the case of MLS you need to use the Internet Tools for the browser, because by default MS/IE is configured to honor the web page structure.

i.e.
Tools menu >> Internet Options >> General tab >> Accessibility button >> Accessibility dialog >> Ignore font sizes specified on web pages option >> OK button

Then the browser will react to the change in the 'Text Size' setting on the 'View' menu or the keyboard shortcut {Ctrl++} & {Ctrl+-}, or {Ctrl+mouse scroll-up} & {Ctrl+mouse scroll-down}.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, kind of a pain to do, because normally you want the setting for default, and if you change it away to allow text zooming, then other pages look poor. 

I don't know if FireFox allows you to temporarily override this on a page by page or session by session basis, but I like the way it is set up better. 

Also, we have found problems with IE7, and a couple of our internal application site pages have to be re-done for IE8... too much of a moving target. 

Regards, Greg


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## SteveC (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg

No more or less a pain than any other browser, it's simply a matter of plunking your money down (yes I know for the most part they're all free







) and takes your chances. Then taking into consideration all the various standards that any given web page may have been written to, the fact that some parts get wonky doesn't surprise me at all, everybody has their favorite "standard" then proceed to embellish it with their tweaks & quirks.


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Del. I have IE7 and I hve never been able to change the text size for MLS on either mine or my wife's computer. Changing size works fine on other sites but not MLS, With Firefox it works on all sites. I don't know why it works,but it does. Not being a computer lover or geek, I am always happy when things work the way I want them to! I will be staying with Firefox for now. I am not loyal to any operating system or Browser, so will not get into the what is better discussion.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Bill,

I do understand the issues with poor eyesight. My arms aren't long enough anymore to reach the keyboard w/o using glasses.

I thought there was some kinda text size control on IE. Maybe not. I bet one of these Ace Compooter guys knows. 

But hey, if you need to type big, type big!







I'm not offended. Anyway, if I was, so what? Who'm I? Just another member. True, I had a little problem trying to understand what you were writing, but now that I do know there's a problem I'll make an extra effort to slow down and read.

Scooting my chair back about six feet ougtha work!

Les


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow,
3,000+ views and not a peep out of Bachmann.

Perhaps they don't really care???

Perhaps they are ashamed???

They should be ashamed.
This issue is not going to go away. 
Font size and readability of the screen notwithstanding.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Tony.... 

Old gaffers and bad eyesight has hi-jacked your thread.... 

Bye the way... what was the original topic? My memory is good.... but short... 


Need to go and repair my walker... 

gg


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Thought I'd point this out, too.

In IE-7 (and probably 6 and 8 too) in the lower right corner of the window there should be a small magnifying glass symbol with a Plus ("+") sign in it with the text "100%" and a small downward pointing arrow (or upside-down pyramid). 

Click on the symbol (or the text) and the content of the window will increase to 125% in size. Click it again and it will go to 150%. Click it one more time and it will revert to 100%. 

If you click on the small downward pointing arrow you will get a small menu of percentages that range with magnification values of 50%, 75%, 100%, 125%, 150%, 200%, and 400%. You can also select any whole number percentage value by selecting the "Custom..." entry.

I have used the 75% (or even the 50%) setting to help get all the text on screen when someone has posted a wide photo causing "wrap" point to be beyond the width of the window, meaning that I would otherwise have to scroll the window horizontally to read the text. 

Of course that makes the text smaller which makes it all that much harder to read, but when used in conjunction with the "Magnifier tool" (which I "used to" have on my PC, but cannot find it now to explain how to use it!







.) returns the text to large size in a small window at the bottom of the screen as you roll the mouse arrow over the text. I am sure there are free versions that can be down loaded from various web sites. Anybody have one they particularly like?

It is like horizontal scrolling but is a bit easier to keep track of what line you are reading in those postings that are all just one long, long, run-on paragraph.

The only problem with using the IE-x Magnification option in the lower right corner to make the window content bigger is that it means you have to do the horizontal scrolling, which is back to that painful horizontal scrolling.

At least IE-x does have the ability to reduce painfully large text as well as magnify painfully small text... but at the cost of needing better reading glasses or having to do horizontal scrolling.


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Let me go get my glasses....


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Tony, that's not a surprise in the least. They hardly have a presence on their _own_ board, let alone any others. (It's bad when Loco Bill posts with more authority on Bachmann's products--and more often--than their own reps do.) I often wonder why Bachmann has a forum at all, except to provide users a venue to talk about which prototypes they'd like to see Philly cheerfully ignore next. I don't know if the Bach-man's hands are so tied by the front office that he can't say anything, but they just hired Jack Lynch and he's virtually non-existant, too--a dramatic shift from his level of activity when his bosses sat on the opposite coast. Why hire an effective mouthpiece and then not let him talk? Perception is 9-tenths of reality, and a PR/Marketing guy's job is to shape that perception--not sit idly by while someone else shapes it differently. 

Later, 

K


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By GG on 05/24/2009 5:04 PM
Let me go get my glasses....


Sherry or Champaign?


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## GG (Jan 1, 2009)

Don't know... can't see them...


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

But, it is highly interesting when Botch....errrr.....Bachmann seemingly sends over someone to hijack a thread away from actual experience, especially by someone who admits he doesn't even own one! 
So what if he can't read it. 
Maybe we did that on purpose, eh? 

Isn't gonna work, Tony. 
Like you said, 3,000 views, and 4 people e-mailed him, not happy. 
Ain't life grand? 

VP of Marketing wanted a "friendly" site, Kevin, and By Gum, that's what he's got. 
Clueless, absolutely no idea, but friendly! 
I don't even think the ORIGINAL Bach-Man goes there anymore.


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Kevin. 

I make a post with legitimate complaints about a Bachmann product. 
These complaints could be systemic failures across the whole production run and Bachmann say nothing. 
ZIP, NADA!!! NOTHING!!!!!!!!! 
So far there have been 3,000 plus views with 7 pages of comments. 

I doubt there is any question Bachmann would like to see the thread disappear. 
Far be it from me to accuse Bachmann of engineering a deliberate attempt to Hi Jack the thread. However I am not going to let it go. 
I refuse to give in to Corporate BS. 
The whole production run of the 2-6-6-2T is now suspect. If they can leave screws loose in one, they can do it in all of them. 

Is no one else concerned?


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## East Broad Top (Dec 29, 2007)

Tony, I'm not implying your complaints aren't legit, so I hope you didn't take it as such. I'm in full agreement with you that the silence from Philly is deafening. That's most definitely a cause for concern, or at least suspicion. I deal with corporate spin-meisters fairly regularly in my line of work. The best ones are out in front of any controversy with their side of the story. Whether it's honest or not is subject to interpretation (and the truth often lies somewhere in the middle), but at least they're out there. The ones that hide behind their voice mails invariably look guilty as sin. Doesn't matter if they are or not, it's how they're perceived by the public. You gotta respond to criticism, or you're going to get run over by it. 

I do not have a 2-6-6-2, so I can't comment to its performance or construction quality. What I've _heard_ runs the gamut from best to worst, which seems to be typical of many of B'mann's products. That in and of itself is indicative of a universally lax commitment to QC. That criticism against Philly is hardly new, and we keep hoping they address it with each new release. They seem not to, and I think in the long run it will lead to frustrated consumers except those who are predisposed to cleaning up the warts in exchange for a good price. While I count myself in that category, I know I'm in the minority. This is already a niche hobby; you don't survive by basing your entire business model on a small percentage of that niche. 

The bottom line, however, is that we can be as concerned as we want to be, it's not going to change a darned thing. I'd love to see them address these QC issues head on, and openly support bringing them to the public, but that's all I can do. All any of us can do is put the message out there. The intended recipients have to be open to listening to it. 

Later, 

K


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

I really thought we had put the "loose screw syndrome" to bed with the aftermath of the 2-8-0. 
One of the things that has disappointed me has been this very issue on the Oscar. 
There was one person, who seemed to think he knew all the answers, and thought it was best to work "within the system". 
The last 2 big locos where he did have proven (to me anyway) that working "within the system" does not work. 
The silence is deafening, but, to their defense, I have IN PRINT that they are handling everything "in-house". 
I cannot WAIT to see how they handle this. 

The shipping alone is going to kill off any profits from such a (apparently) short run of locos. 

That said, and to throw another wrench into the discussion: 

Blackstone Models. 
K-27 in H0n3. 

Manufactured by.....Kader. 

Do we have these issues with this locomotive? 
Not that I have heard. 

So, what is the difference? 
I mean, other than scale? 

Well, it is contracted out. 
Not made for a wholly-owned subsidiary, for one. 

And, different Directors of Product Development, for two. 

Finally, no outside "consultant" or "technical advisor" to muddy it up, for three. 

Which proves that you can get an apparently quality item out of Hong Kong. 
I guess it depends on who does the design, who is pushing an "agenda", who "approves" the prototype, and just how thorough they are in their approval process. 

I could watch each release getting overall better when reviews were written pointing out the flaws, and "procedures" for consumer mods were written..... 

But now? 

How long do YOU give it?


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Del Tapparo on 05/24/2009 9:21 AM
Posted By billsharron on 05/23/2009 8:05 PM
Les, You are right, I do have extremely poor eyesight. I cannot read most MLS posts without a magnifying glass, MLS was going to do somthing to allow us almost blind guys to at least make the print on our own computers larger. Nothing seems to work. Even using the IE text size does not increase the size of MLS posts. 





CTRL+ increases the size of text in both Internet Explorer and FireFox, at least on my PC.








Bill,

From a cool tipster who mentioned the 'magnification window' in the lower r/h corner of the screen, I tried it on one of your posts. It is so simple even I can do it successfully--and get back where I was w/o trouble. So, post to your heart's content! I can downsize when needed.

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Del,

That was an excellent suggestion about the size window in the lower r/h corner. It works perfectly on large typefaces, and best yet, I can find my way back to dimensions I like. THANKS!

Les


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By TonyWalsham on 05/24/2009 4:28 PM
Wow,
3,000+ views and not a peep out of Bachmann.

Perhaps they don't really care???

Perhaps they are ashamed???

They should be ashamed.
This issue is not going to go away. 
Font size and readability of the screen notwithstanding.









Tony,

Supposing your qestions were not merely rhetorical, my opinion is that B'mann mgt. does not care. Like so many American businesses, the top dogs (word chosen with some thought) are trained in school on a certain standard business model that assumes "They--the customers--need us. We don't need them, because they're cretins with money and will buy what we offer because WE are BACHMANN." They insulate themselves from customer feedback because they can, unlike a small businessman like you. They have not built the companies they are 'managing' and their major concerns are prestige and money, not in that order.

They will never be ashamed, because they are the 'elite', and by definition, elites are above criticism by the rabble.

My general opinion is that dissatisfied customers should buy elsewhere while putting the word out why they are doing so.

Having roosted on this board for awhile, I can say that any money I will spend will be with HLW, and scale be damned, I'll learn to rework the details as required. Their motor blocks are reported to be rugged and reliable by the 'bashers and runners.

Will B'mann sink? I don't know. I don't know what kind of quality & volume their other scales enjoy.

However, once it was a given that if you wanted a safe investment, by GM stock. Care for some, now? Last I heard it was a buck a share.

Les


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## billsharron (Jan 3, 2008)

Les, that lower right thing works, but firefox works betterbecause it make the print bigger but keeps it all in view, as least for me. On my computer by the time I use the lower right thing to get the print where I can read it some of it is off the screen.
As for the QC issue, I still say if you don't like the quality, don't buy the product. If your customer buys it and it is broke give them the option of retruning it to the Mfr themselves or paying you for the time you spend to fix their locomotive for them. As I said in an earlier post, if folks keep buying stuff that doesn't work, manufacturers will never do anything for QC. Large scale seems to be a rich mans hobby, I have mostly $!00 to $295 price locos. But even at that when the young folks come over, they choke on the cost of my retelatively small layout. When I tell them some engines cost from $700 to over $2500, I usually get the "Do you realize how many RC cars you could buy for that?" When I go to the convention in Denver I will be right at home with the old timers like myself. Problably be able to count 18 to 24 year olds on one hand not counting the ones whose parents dragging them there!! I have given away track and an engine or two to young folks to get them interested in trains, leftover HO stuff that I can no longer see!!!! I don't think it is working very well. Imagine saving $250 even, to buy a loco that comes to you broken, that would be a killer. But many in the hobby keep buying stuff just to be first!! Will Bachmann go down and out, I don't think so, they survived to bad quality image since the first got int model trains, I do feel they made a mistake getting out of the low cost 1:22.5 for all intents and purposes. Kader seems to be cornering the model train business by buying everything they can when others go out of business


Even LGB with their alledged reputation for quality couldn't make it. Neither could Marklin or Delton or...... or......who is next. As one poster said we want the perfect loco, but only want to pay 25% of the cost making it!


To all my compadre veterans out there Happy Memorial Day!!!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Bill. 
With respect. 
Returning the loco to the manufacturer from Australia is definitely not an option. 
Especially if the thing fails after a conversion has taken place. 
Once again I repeat, the only way Bachmann, or anyone else for that matter, will get the message, is when they get sick of feeling big boots up the backside in public, admit what they are doing is alienating their target market, and really do something about quality control. Instead of making hollow promises. Promises that seem they never really intended to keep anyway. 

Come on Bachmann. How about it?? Can we have a comment about the Quality Control issue please???


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Once again I repeat, the only way Bachmann, or anyone else for that matter, will get the message, is when they get sick of feeling big boots up the backside in public, admit what they are doing is alienating their target market, and really do something about quality control.
With respect, I disagree. The only way they will *REALLY* get the message is when people stop buying what they produce! People have been publicly complaining for years. People loudly and publicly complained about loose motor mount screws in the Connie. What good did it do? The "public boot in the backside" seemingly did no good at all, in this instance at least.

People loudly and publicly complained about QC in the Shay, the Climax, The Heisler, the Connie, the K-27, and now the articulated. With all the complaints I've read here over the years, and all the subsequent issues I've read about here, I haven't perceived a lot of improvement in their QC (again based upon what I read here). People continue to buy faulty stuff and spend more to have it "corrected" by a third party, and the manufacturer continues their merry way of shoddy QC and subsequent denial or silence.

Personally, I think Bill is essentially correct. All the public bitching in the world is going to make no real difference so long as people vote the opposite with their wallet.









OTOH, complaining is a lot like farting... while it may do no real good for the masses, it makes one personally feel better. There's more room on the outside then there is on the inside.  Drive on if it makes you feel better. 

_Disclaimer: posted as MY opinion as a forum participant, NOT in any way as representing MLS or its collective view._


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Agreed Dwight. 
You could say continually pointing out the QC faults will deter at least some potential customers from buying what have been proven to be faulty products due to poor quality control. At least until the faults are known and can be rectified either by Bachmann or by after market third parties. 
Bachmann will eventually get the message. I think they are starting to. 
I have it on good authority that the sales of the Bachmann K-27 and now the 2-6-6-2T are not as good as predicted. 

So here endeth the message.
For now!!!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, but did they get the correct message? The decision makers at Bachmann have made some good choices and some bad ones and there really isn't any logical pattern to them...


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I've pretty much sworn off Bachman products with a VERY few exceptions. JUST TOO MUCH to deal with. I don't mind fixing something minor but it seems there is more than minor things going on here? When i was at RRS several months ago and saw the 3 truck shay on clearance at a decent price (NOTE CLEARANCE PRICED) I still decided that in my mind there were too many issues and I hadn't considered buying one before that and so I had not paid close attention to the problems and issues. Oh well. Not any money out of my wallet. 

Chas


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/25/2009 10:45 PM
Once again I repeat, the only way Bachmann, or anyone else for that matter, will get the message, is when they get sick of feeling big boots up the backside in public, admit what they are doing is alienating their target market, and really do something about quality control.
With respect, I disagree. The only way they will *REALLY* get the message is when people stop buying what they produce! People have been publicly complaining for years. People loudly and publicly complained about loose motor mount screws in the Connie. What good did it do? The "public boot in the backside" seemingly did no good at all, in this instance at least.

People loudly and publicly complained about QC in the Shay, the Climax, The Heisler, the Connie, the K-27, and now the articulated. With all the complaints I've read here over the years, and all the subsequent issues I've read about here, I haven't perceived a lot of improvement in their QC (again based upon what I read here). People continue to buy faulty stuff and spend more to have it "corrected" by a third party, and the manufacturer continues their merry way of shoddy QC and subsequent denial or silence.

Personally, I think Bill is essentially correct. All the public bitching in the world is going to make no real difference so long as people vote the opposite with their wallet.









OTOH, complaining is a lot like farting... while it may do no real good for the masses, it makes one personally feel better. There's more room on the outside then there is on the inside. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wink.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> Drive on if it makes you feel better. " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />

_Disclaimer: posted as MY opinion as a forum participant, NOT in any way as representing MLS or its collective view._ 



Ah, yes, flatulence.
In those long 11+ years, continually developing "fixes" trying desperately to get them to see we had a problem with the entire process, not just QC, or design, or whatever, and then the "loose screw" syndrome pops back up.

I remember the counterweight issue on the K.
I remember being told on the phone that there wasn't a problem because ONE PERSON kept telling them there wasn't.
It's that attitude, which was just a continuation of many previous people with similar attitudes, that "enables" the status quo.
Sending an engine back should not be happening.
It should be right out of the box.

BAD deal if you have custom lettered it, detailed it, added sound, your own couplers, and they crush it and send you a new loco.

In 57 or so years in model railroading, do you know how many locomotives in any scale I have returned to the factory for repair?

Hold up one hand.
Make a fist.
Count the fingers sticking up while holding the fist.

I think for my next locomotive, I shall start with a BBT chassis, a block of wood, and a whittling knife.
Sanding, sealing and painting, and I don't have to deal with it anymore.


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, for sure you would have a reliable runner!


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 11, 2008)

And for sure I wouldn't have to worry about some worker a year or more before using a dustpan to pick up casting scraps and dumping them back in the hopper........


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

One thing China makes realy well is ... 

LAND FILL 

Of course, it is all at the price we asked for. 

Andrew


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By Paradise on 05/27/2009 12:42 PM
One thing China makes realy well is ... 

LAND FILL 

Of course, it is all at the price we asked for. 

Andrew








Andrew,

Well ... I dunno. I like a good number of their power tools. Crude, yes. But affordable.

I got cheapshotted on another board when I was first getting into LS. I'm retired, and I found the prices stunning. I wanted to scratchbuild, so I didn't find that a great problem. I failed to consider the cost of motor units (bricks) or parts like drivers, etc--things that are more than passing difficult to make.

It is no one's fault that an acceptable engine cannot be made at a price most would like to pay. And I'm including QC and all the rest.

The thing I fail to understand is that there is no cheering for a low-end priced model stripped to the bare bones. They are routinely jeered for being 'toylike', 'cheap', and 'junk'. Well, they might at least be affordable. And upgradeable. HLW might do it, with some forethought: make a shell that looks _in outline_ and size so that 'extras' could be made or bought and applied. HLW might offer grades of 'upgrade kits'.

And even if the low-end offerings are 'toylike', I have memory of MR running articles on how to 'customize' a Lionel (of all things) to look more 'prototypical'.

Those who want scale LS RTR with most of the detailing at Echo (used) prices are not being realistic.

One last thought: I saw a very interesting bash of a crane using a Scientific Toys crane kit on this site. When the gentleman finished, he had a very creditable-looking LS scale steam crane. (Electric, but representing steam.) And it was operable. That's my kind of builder.

As others have said, if you don't like the quality, don't buy the brand.

Les


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## Robbie Hanson (Jan 4, 2008)

Ok, here's my thought on this. 

I'm 18. I have a job, but I'm going to college in the fall. Therefore, I don't have a ton of money. For someone like me, would you recommend a Bachmann or Accucraft K-27? Only about $2000 difference! Therefore, I bought the Bachmann three weeks ago, knowing it needed counterweights. I'm ok with a problem if I know about it; it's quality issues that I don't expect that are a problem. Due to that, and due to Bachmann's spurning of TOC, I'm not buying any more Bachmann, even if they make a K-37 for $600, until they either change their attitude or let him solve problems that shouldn't have existed in the first place. 

Considering I've never seen the Meylet in person, it does seem to have major issues due to cheapening and/or design flaws. Would the loose motor have been discovered if TOC had been allowed to diagnose the engine? I'll bet it would have been. 

Again, the K-27 was a must; I'd dreamed about owning one for 12 years, and after a year of waiting after Bachmann intro'd it, I'm seriously in love with the engine. It has its faults, but then everything does; it's made by humans, the likelihood of it being perfect is nil. But such huge imperfections as a loose motor cannot be ignored. However, given the price, everybody keeps buying Bachmann locos. At this point, we need to either stop complaining about the problems or stop buying the engines. Simple as that. Buying locos and complaining about their faults will not force Bachmann to listen. Not giving them any money for an overhyped piece of junk will.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

Robbie, 

About two years ago, I was going to buy an Accucraft K27. At roughly $2700, Phoenix sound and Airwire, I just couldn't quite handle it at the time. NOW you can't find them anywhere. There is NO comparison on the quality or workmanship between Bachmann and Accucraft. Night and day.Accucraft is just pricey, that's all. I DID purchase a new Accucraft C19, #346, last year and could not be happier. Keep your eyes open for a K27 in the classifieds. Good luck in your quest.

Robbie,

Disregard my post. I should have read a little closer. For the money, you'll be happy with your K27. Follow TOC's fixes.


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## Del Tapparo (Jan 4, 2008)

You know, I have never even once considered purchasing an Accucraft locomotive. They are beautiful ... and expensive. But now having been in this hobby for over 10 years, I have to stop and think about this for a minute ... My track record (like many of us here) is buying the cheapest loco I can find, and then adding all the goodies ... sound,battery power,DCC,etc. So basically; I can buy and outfit about three Bachmann locos for the same price as one Accucraft with the same goodies. Hmmmm .... and then I only have one really nice loco to worry about and maintain, instead of three that I know are a pain. So maybe with fewer nice locos I wouldn't have as much variety ... but then again ... It may be time to splurg!


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## Steve Stockham (Jan 2, 2008)

My C-19 #346 is a true beauty! It's the next on the list for r/c conversion and then I'll be happy.....


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## steam5 (Jun 22, 2008)

Del I think like that all the time.
I recently did this in HO. I had two reasonable brass UP big boys which I liked but I wasn’t 100% with them, and they both needed some improvements. I decided to sell both and from the money buy one better Big Boy.
I sold both, and I was only a couple of hundred out of pocket when I purchased the better model. For the record most of the couple of hundred was import tax and GST due to the value of the loco.
To make a comparison in G, I don’t think one could sell two Bachmann k-27’s for an Accucraft k-27.

I own a Bachmann K-27, and funnily enough I purchased it second hand from someone selling some of his gear because he had started to purchasing Accucraft locos… but I get the impression that money is not a huge issue with him…


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

It's similar to buying a tool... buy a cheap one and, if you plan to use it much, you'll most likely be spending more later to replace it. Buy a good one to start with and it will last a lifetime.


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## Nohandles (Jan 2, 2009)

Well, I've followed this thread and decided to add a comment. Over the years I've gotten the models that struck my fancy but not without problems. My philosophy has always been to fix it when it broken and modify if need be. If there were a glut of players we could be more selective and then get what we want. Unfortunately there isn't. I don't think any of the players in G are any worse for customer care than any of the rest of the products we purchase for day to day life. Press 1 of English press then press then press,cool got someone, darn cut off again. This hobby is way to fun so enjoy and fix it when it broken.


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## John J (Dec 29, 2007)

Posted By Nohandles on 05/28/2009 8:00 PM
Well, I've followed this thread and decided to add a comment. Over the years I've gotten the models that struck my fancy but not without problems. My philosophy has always been to fix it when it broken and modify if need be. If there were a glut of players we could be more selective and then get what we want. Unfortunately there isn't. I don't think any of the players in G are any worse for customer care than any of the rest of the products we purchase for day to day life. Press 1 of English press then press then press,cool got someone, darn cut off again. This hobby is way to fun so enjoy and fix it when it broken.

I agree with Doug. I just fix the things that need to be fixed and move on. 

One would think that when you pay 3 million to 4 million dollars for a printing press It would arrive in perfect shape. Even though they test and print on them at the factory Some do make it over here with problems. QC is not 100 % perfect.


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## c nelson (Dec 18, 2008)

Bill, 

do I think Bachmann messed up by moving from the 1:22.5 stuff, maybe...but one could begin to think they are going back down that road as well...only time will tell. 

Like Les, I agree that HLW is a FINE company building robust equipment, albeit a different scale as some would hope/care for.... 

I'm really getting into the little LGB engines of late, much like the HLW locos, they appeal to the senses of the kids and myself.... 

Here it goes: Scale be Damned! 

I'm finished with the thought that I'll ever have time to model a fine-scale RR (at least for the next 15 or so years), I'm going all out...to keep the kids happy, no matter what scale or combo thereof... 

and Yes I have ordered a Thomas set from TW, and we'll see what I have to do to get it to operate correctly...though I have NO other plans on purchasing anything "new" from the Philly Pholks. 

cale


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## Paradise (Jan 9, 2008)

More truth. 
Weapon of mass dissfunction. 
Brick in the wall, not me. 

Oh, I am so glad I have an LGB forney spankers in the box I paid $275 to upscale rather than wasting $500 or so on the latest pile of seaweed and snot from you know who. 

Goodbye


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## San Juan (Jan 3, 2008)

Very interesting and entertaining thread.

The many issues with Bachmann quality control got me thinking. Maybe these are not quality control issues at all. Maybe Bachmann just designs and engineers inferior products. Perhaps rushing to get the product out. Which could be blamed on all of us. "When is it coming, why the delays, etc.." 


They usually have a good idea and usually a good looking product. But no thought seems to be given to long term reliability, or in some cases, out of the box reliability.

Perhaps what is needed is a new design team instead of complaining about the assembly process. You can only assemble something of high reliability if it was designed to be reliable in the first place.


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## vsmith (Jan 2, 2008)

Sad to say Bachmann lost me as a customer when they announced the stratosheric price of the new Forney, jeezzus-age walking lizards are they intentionally trying to kill their customer loyalty? If I ever buy a Forney, it WILL be LGBs version, ta **** with this deep pocket trust fund pricing policy! I sometimes wonder if they arent intentionally trying to kill off the large scale line so they can focus on smaller more profitable scales or if they intend to become a high end niche beautique brand like Accucraft (they better improve their quality if so). Remember, they sell a ****-load more HO Thomas crap than they ever sold in 1/20.3.


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Hey Y'all;

I'm just starting in regular G gauge and with what I could spend the Bachmann sets worked for me. Regarding a comment above about plain-jane locos and cars; since I have the skill, I dismantled model and repainted plain green toylike model's boiler jacket and stack (this stack looks like the kind that was jacketed with iron just like boiler), black pilot, and black cylinders, with spray cans as with my health right now just can't concentrate enough to airbrush. Krylon Hunter Green gloss is pretty close. Satin Hunter Green not quite blue enough.











Don't know if it is strictly prototypical, but it looks like it could be seen to be. And that's good enough for me  


Note that boiler jacketing extends all the way back to backhead on real locos like this - don't really want to bake engineers any more than necessary. 

Painted molded on details on backhead what I have seen and also imagined to be more or less correct colors/materials. 


Even with my sig line being what it is, the line to injector and injector were also painted. Plus am going to eventually add air piping; lubricator piping; and cylinder cocks. Drilled all the holes while model was dismantled. 


Also scraped white paint off tires - in my eyes that _really_ clashed with this color scheme. 


Now, compare to out-of-box starting point











With new paint, original rather toy-ish looking locomotive appears to be have more mass.
I am quite pleased with how it came out.

Something that fit my budget and I could also enjoy spiffing up.


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## rmcintir (Apr 24, 2009)

Nice looking update to your 10 wheeler. I like the wood planks on top of the walkways. I have been impressed with the running operation of my friend's 10 wheeler after I put my Back-EMF capable receiver into it. It operates very smoothly and will putter along at a VERY slow rate pulling 7 coal cars behind it. Here is a video: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GhSMfyo8s


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## eheading (Jan 5, 2008)

I can vouch for that, Russ. It ran VERY nice and smooth.

Ed


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## on30gn15 (May 23, 2009)

Hey there, saw the video - impressive.
Thanks for compliment








Actually, those wood planks on top of walkways are just paint over manufacturer's moldings.
Although someone with more energy could fill notches in chassis and boilerthen fabricate brackets and wood planking.

Hmm . . .


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## Les (Feb 11, 2008)

Posted By c nelson on 31 May 2009 02:34 PM 

I'm really getting into the little LGB engines of late, much like the HLW locos, they appeal to the senses of the kids and myself.... 

Here it goes: Scale be Damned! 

I'm finished with the thought that I'll ever have time to model a fine-scale RR (at least for the next 15 or so years), I'm going all out...to keep the kids happy, no matter what scale or combo thereof... 

[Edited]

Cale, I think your post is full of wisdom. Enjoy where you can, NOW. Let the future take care of itself. You'll have great memories of your kids & the trains. I do. In time, maybe a finescale RR. Maybe not.

I've just reached a similar conclusion. When I sit down to sketch out a project, I find I'm always seriously short on technical data, so I know that whatever I build and show on the board will be inaccurate. As a one time tool and die maker, being 'off' is a serious matter. But I'll learn from constructive criticism as time goes on, that part doesn't bother me. It's the 'accuracy cutoff level' that was bothering me. So I thought, "The heck with it, I'll just label everything 'freelanced', have fun building what I envision, and have fun running it." That's why I originally got into this gauge, because it's big enough to work with, and that's what I originally wanted, a scratch-built SL.

Go, you!

Les


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## LogSkidder01 (Jul 30, 2009)

"QC is not 100 % perfect." ???? 

Do to out of the box failures with the HO Shays, I bought one spare locomotive and several sets of trucks to keep three units running. I am on my second set of trucks on both my 2 and 3 truck LS Shays. In the same time period, I have put several hundred hours on an Aristo Mallet, and the only problems have been due to careless operators. 

I can buy a new basic AED for less than the MSRP of a Bachmann LS Mallet. OK it is not the same level of risk, but would you want an AED used on you which was made by a company this sloppy? 

Cost is not the issue, designing for and assuring quality are. It is Management (or lack there of). OK, I getting off the 1:1 scale soap box (until next time). 

AED? Automated External Defibrillator which many of us older characters have become acquainted with.


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