# Aristo's botched repair of my LS Mikado



## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Three weeks ago Navin told me he was mailing back my live steam Mikado , after having it for three months. I had finally written to Lewis and he had gotten on him, I guess. Two weeks went by and NO Mike. I called again and he told me he was working on it, after telling me he had mailed it back. I wrote to Lewis again and was told it was going out that day. Well, it was a mess when I got it. Cab had a sticker over it that messed up my lettering and was dirty.








The smokebox they sent back(not mine) was warped and melted from boiler heat, since they had not sealed up the boiler/smokebox gap.








Melted smokebox.









Note the circuit board above, it's supposed to be screwed in a box under the smokebox, but it was not screwed together and all the wires pulled out.








A flashlight shining inside the smokebox gives you an idea of the gap that would let the boiler heat out, melting the smokebox. It's about
the same all the way around it also. It is now sealed back up.









They put on a used boiler from a demo unit-wll all the parts they 'fixed' mine with were used. Guess they
discovered a bad sight glass, now this mess is what I have. Wonder how much pressure it will hold?


I also found many missing or loose screws. By the boiler I found a piece that I found out was an insulator plate that 
protected the metal servo plate from heating up the servo. They test fired it twice, so I wonder? ALSO some wires under the boiler

that the plate was relocated to by me had some wires stuck in there and touching the bottom of the boiler. I am now
charging the tender batteries to test the R/C unit. Guess how much faith I have in that working?


I used to think Aristo cared, but now don't. Tate there seems to be the only one with any concerns.


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## blueregal (Jan 3, 2008)

ARISTOCRAP!!!! Right? nuff said!!!! Higher prices Less and Less quality it's the American way now!! Go get em Jerry


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## KYYADA (Mar 24, 2008)

Man they should send you a new one after a mess like that. 

Johnny


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

Although I am not an Aristo Mikoado owner, here is the problem as I see it for Aristo. They approached this offering as if it was an electric train. You produce and sell the product, the user opens the box, follows the instructions, and sets it on the rails and runs the model. If something malfunctions you send out a part and the owner spends an hour with a screwdriver and off we go again, providing the model is designed such that it can be repaired at all. So far so good. 

What they have done however is supply the market with a relatively complex and idiosynchratic machine, with many things which can go wrong, with some components which are not designed to be repaired, or repaired easily, to a market which is generally uninformed and ill-equipped to carry out repairs, even if the parts are supplied, and who are also consumerist, who will demand the product performs as expected or get satisfaction. It appears the home office is also generally uninformed and ill-equipped to carry out repairs. IMHO this spells trouble for owners and by extension Aristo and I think they will soon regret this adventure, if not already. Have I missed anything?


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
It is evident that Lewis, Scott and Navin have no ability to repair their products. The repairs represent an amateurish attempt to fix one problem only it became a multitude of failed fixes based on the lack of fundamental knowledge of the original problem. The engine you received should never have been released back to you, their customer. Would have been better for AC to send you a new unit or offer a prorated "buy back."


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Would this be an opportune time for someone to make and sell a simple replacement metal boiler shell?

cheers


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry,
I would email Lewis the photos and demand an explanation. Then after that a brand new engine period! What a mess. Don't take it lying down friend. They owe you on this one. 
On another note, I have completely tore down and rebuilt a couple of Accucraft C-16's. They are bullet proof. I am in the process of stripping all the paint off one right now to back date it to a DSP&P engine. Guess what I found under thier paint? Chinese finger prints on the raw brass......LOL
Noel


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Noel, 

At least you have proof.. 

Jerry, 

Id demand a replacement....or even briung it to Eclsts


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## Slick (Jan 3, 2008)

Heck of a great idea......







A replacement metal shell could be a "Contender".


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

That's really a disgrace, Jerry.


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry to hear Jerry! 
i think this issue needs attention! 
Why you dont make up a list and we as LS Fans will sign in and then represent it to aristo! 

Manfred Diel 
SA #1313


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for your comments guys. Lewis knew quite a bit about this before he left for the toy fair in Germany, as did Scott. Tate promised to bring it to his attention upon his return. Even my wife is astounded at all of this.


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I agree this is a total bust for repairs. One can only imagine why it took so long to replace a boiler and then to botch it putting back together. The down side folks is AC has no extra units to send out for replacement. Again no parts which we have all asked for numerous times but has fallen on deaf ears. AC praises there commitment to correct defects but in this case they have failed . I have seen work that Navin has done with the LS so it makes me wonder if someone else did not preform the work. I had sent my loco in for new parts to be installed and it never came back inthe shape that Jerrys did. 


Jerry would have to wait another year or so to get a replacement even if AC did consider making another run. We all have hounded AC for at least a parts diagram so we could see what goes where. This has fallen on deaf ears also. This as AC has mentioned numerous times is not a main priority on any new products. So now your stuck. However due to some folks having the skill and knowledge about disassembles of LS some have solved there problems such as Jerry knowing how to dismantle. Maybe you folks should provide a parts diagram and how to disassemble as it looks like it will be a while longer before AC does it.

One thing to remember this loco was made for the novice to operate. It was to get folks interested in LS an AC did just that. As with any product there are folks that have to just tinker and think they can make it a better product. Some will get it right while others will not. I think that Jerry is lucky they did not charge him for the repairs even if not done right. he had done mods but none that would hve affected the operations but it's the principle. You do not buy a new car and imediatley change things, if you do you viod the warrenty. Lets see what the out come from here is. I'm sure it's going to get interesting. Later RJD


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## Bills (Feb 20, 2008)

They fixed an rs3 of mine after the lighting failed. When I got it back the smoke box fan ran backward, it had been miss wired by the repair department. Which was odd as it was not the broken part. It's sad when you have to repair a repair. I doubt that I would by an expensive loco from aristo or Bachmann.


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

And Aristo is due to release two more LS models in the near future...


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

"I think that Jerry is lucky they did not charge him for the repairs even if not done right. he had done mods but none that would hve affected the operations but it's the principle. "


I wondered what Jerry is going to charge them for fixing the sight glass problem properly which did not have any thing to do with the original boiler and its problem. Seems to be that they side stepped the issue at hand: boiler leak and found themselves in a pickle when the replacement had a probable cross thread situation on the sight glass. 

Bottomline- Aristocraft not only got it wrong but made it worse with cabin, smokebox, etc. Jerry is due more than any out of warranty bill that could of came his way! Seems to me IMHO, Aristocraft is lacking principle when they assure someone to trust them to do a repair properly then fails to do so.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to agree, the availability of parts for any Aristo product has been an issue for years. 

Lewis has made several statements to wit "we don't just have parts sitting on shelves" on his own forum, which pretty much put me in orbit. It's a problem for sparkies, but many electric locos can be repaired or worked on by average people. 

A steam locomotive is very special, and few people have the ability to repair and pressure test a boiler, to do silver soldering, or to fabricate metal parts. The issues of pressure and heat multiply the problem. 

I think Aristo went into this ill-prepared for long term maintenance or repairs of these locos. 

The follow on live steamers may be further delayed from these experiences. 

In any case, from what I have seen, some of the poor quality repairs show either no concern for long term operation of the loco, or just plain ignorance of how it operates, or just plain sloppy. 

After 3 months, if Aristo could not repair it properly, they should have farmed it out to an expert, in my opinion. 

Regards, Greg


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## Dave F (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks for posting Jerry.. I WAS considering getting an AC LS Mikado.. Key word there being , was.


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## NTCGRR (Jan 2, 2008)

So you have NOT fired it since you got it back? or more damage was done when you fired it that caused the wires to melt? 
That part was not clear to me.. 

I also know you have promoted the LS part of the hobby and had that loco on the cover ov SIG mag when you was here.


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## Semper Vaporo (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By aceinspp on 02/08/2009 7:04 PM
I agree this is a total bust for repairs. One can only imagine why it took so long to replace a boiler and then to botch it putting back together. The down side folks is AC has no extra units to send out for replacement. Again no parts which we have all asked for numerous times but has fallen on deaf ears. AC praises there commitment to correct defects but in this case they have failed . I have seen work that Navin has done with the LS so it makes me wonder if someone else did not preform the work. I had sent my loco in for new parts to be installed and it never came back inthe shape that Jerrys did. 


Jerry would have to wait another year or so to get a replacement even if AC did consider making another run. We all have hounded AC for at least a parts diagram so we could see what goes where. This has fallen on deaf ears also. This as AC has mentioned numerous times is not a main priority on any new products. So now your stuck. However due to some folks having the skill and knowledge about disassembles of LS some have solved there problems such as Jerry knowing how to dismantle. Maybe you folks should provide a parts diagram and how to disassemble as it looks like it will be a while longer before AC does it.

One thing to remember this loco was made for the novice to operate. It was to get folks interested in LS an AC did just that. As with any product there are folks that have to just tinker and think they can make it a better product. Some will get it right while others will not. I think that Jerry is lucky they did not charge him for the repairs even if not done right. he had done mods but none that would hve affected the operations but it's the principle. You do not buy a new car and imediatley change things, if you do you viod the warrenty. Lets see what the out come from here is. I'm sure it's going to get interesting. Later RJD





Many years ago (and still today, too) Radio and TV receiver manufacturers did not supply schematics of their products to the many small independent Radio and TV repair shops. Howard W. Sams decided to fill this need by buying the most popular radios and TVs, take them apart down to the individual components, writing down how the components were wired, then drawing a schematic of each set. Once a schematic was done, he would then reassemble the unit using the schematic and if it still worked he then knew the schematic was correct. He then would sell the schematic to the many radio and TV repair shops that needed them.

The product was known as "Sams' Photo-Facts". His product was known to be so good that the manufacturer's were purchasing them from him because they were better than their own drawings!!!

I am not suggesting that someone here could make a living producing assembly drawings of Aristocraft and other manufacturer's products, but why doesn't someone take the plunge and do the Sams thing and publish the results?


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## Treeman (Jan 6, 2008)

I think there would be no better man to do it than you Charlie, Have at it!!


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

One reason to have the diagram is to see how it comes apart/goes together. 

The other is to have the parts identified with part numbers and to be able to order the parts. 

Take a paranoid view and consider if a manufacturer would not make a parts diagram, even after several years, only to not have to make parts available. 

How many years has the Aristo Pacific (new style) been around? hmm... 

Regards, Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry, sorry to hear about your problems







with the Aristo live-steam mike; I'll echo Dave F's comments about getting one. *There was one that ended on eBay last week, at a VERY reasonable price *







; I came *VERY close *to submitting a last-minute bid on it, but hesitated for 2 reasons; one was that I had just bought an Accucraft Mich-Cal #2 2-cylinder live-steam Shay







back in early December (& my wallet's still recuperating







from that purchase!







), *but my second reason for hesitating on buying one was some of the support issues (parts availability in particular! *







*) I've heard about on them. *







(I was as close to submitting a higher bid than the winning one as having a dollar amount keyed in, *then deciding against it *







in the last few seconds of the auction).

*In spite of Aristo's claim that the Mike was live steam for "everybody" *







, from some of the posts I've read from other Mike owners (many of whom this engine was their *first venture into live steam *







) it may have had the *opposite effect *







& in fact *soured *







many potential newcomers to live-steam as *"too troublesome!" *







My own first live-steamer was the Accucraft 3-cylinder Shay







, which I've had for over 4 years & has *many hours of operation on it. *A good friend of mine, a well-known & respected narrow-gauge modeller, *originally tried to talk me out of purchasing it. *







- He advised me that *"live steam is nothing but constant tinkering" *







(as it happens, that's one of the *more enjoyable aspects *







of the hobby for me!) & *"they're difficult to control" *(as in "running away down grades!"







- which certainly applied to my Ruby until I installed RC in it.). After actually *seeing *







*the Accucraft 3-Cylinder Shay in operation, his comment was "That's the BEST-running live-steamer I've ever seen!" *







- Referring to both it's controlability & speed. While I've had to do some maintenace on it (learned how to re-time valves, & replacing piston rings is something I now plan on doing on an annual basis on it ), it's been a learning experience *I had planned on.*

Getting back to what I've read on the Aristo Mike, it sounded like the *electronics on it - ESPECIALLY the "sound system" *







(I'm using the term *VERY LOOSELY *







, from what I've heard about it) - are what a certain "curmudgeon"







refers to as *"cut-&-throw"!*







That aspect didn't have any real affect on my decison *at all *- I've installed RC in all 3 of my Accucraft live-steamers myself







, so pulling out the Aristo electronics & installing conventional RC components wouldn't bother me particularly much; but I could see how that would be a *real obstacle for many other people. *







A *far greater concern is the issue you're having with yours - basic reliability & assembly quality of the live-steam components (boiler & running gear). *Hope Aristo resolves this to your satisfaction *(even if it means sending you a NEW loco!). Good luck on it...*

*Tom*


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## lotsasteam (Jan 3, 2008)

Well Dave, no reason to hesitate!Me around the corner i"ll back you up with the repair thingy!My Live steam aristo needed only minor valve adjustment and the smokebox seal of course a new paint job so it looks a little different other wise besides a pulled connector plug it runs just fine(You"ll see at the OGDEN Show] 
Manfred Diel 
SA # 1313


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## Taperpin (Jan 6, 2008)

Jerry, 
Sad story but not unexpected..the subject of after sale spares and parts lists has arisen here in Australia in the model press with particular reference to "HO" models..the final consensus was that these models are "contract" builds by factories in china.a one off production batch,the chinese factory is notgoing to supply ongoing spares etc, they have been paid the contract amount for the 200 or 300 models end of story.one importer actually stated the buyers cannot expect spares to be available.for this reason. 
Having worked in china 30 years ago what normally happened was that if you had acontract for 100 items of machinery..the factory would supply 105% of the items and regarded the extra 5% supply as the guarantee backup. they would not consider any claims for defective product whatsoever.. 
It seems obvious that a similar state of affairs applies in large scale models and probably explains the lack of parts listings and spares availabilty.this means we are intended to regard the models as "consumer" items to be discarded when they beakdown and new ones bought.. alittle sad really a there are some fine steam models still running which are 20 or 30 years old. 
The second aspect of this story illustrates that Electric and live steam models have totally different repair needs, and that live steam should only be worked on by persons with lots of experience and a sound understanding of its engineering requierments. in my experience the retailers of electric large scale trains have zero knowledge of steam and should not be allowed to attempt repairs to Steam models 

Gordon Watson.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Gordon
Excellent perspective of business arrangement:
"Having worked in china 30 years ago what normally happened was that if you had acontract for 100 items of machinery..the factory would supply 105% of the items and regarded the extra 5% supply as the guarantee backup. they would not consider any claims for defective product whatsoever.. "

Lesson learned for all of us here in the steam community when having any future consideration of dealing with Aristocraft.


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## livesteam5629 (Jan 2, 2008)

"Having worked in china 30 years ago what normally happened was that if you had acontract for 100 items of machinery..the factory would supply 105% of the items and regarded the extra 5% supply as the guarantee backup. they would not consider any claims for defective product whatsoever.. "

Is this why we cannot get a decient supply of extra parts etc from Accucraft?? 
N


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Seems awful funny that AC has no parts but other makers have them and they have there products also built in China. Maybe it's high time to confront the China men and tell them do it or else. I'm sure there are other folks that could supply the product if push come to shove I'm sure they could come around. It boils down to the company asking for the parts when the model is run. The problem is the companies do not ask for the parts. Later RJD


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## Chris Scott (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Tom Lapointe on 02/09/2009 12:42 AM
Jerry, sorry to hear about your problems







with the Aristo live-steam mike; I'll echo Dave F's comments about getting one. *There was one that ended on eBay last week, at a VERY reasonable price *







; I came *VERY close *to submitting a last-minute bid on it, but hesitated for 2 reasons; one was that I had just bought an Accucraft Mich-Cal #2 2-cylinder live-steam Shay







back in early December (& my wallet's still recuperating







from that purchase!







), *but my second reason for hesitating on buying one was some of the support issues (parts availability in particular! *







*) I've heard about on them. *







(I was as close to submitting a higher bid than the winning one as having a dollar amount keyed in, *then deciding against it *







in the last few seconds of the auction).

*In spite of Aristo's claim that the Mike was live steam for "everybody" *







, from some of the posts I've read from other Mike owners (many of whom this engine was their *first venture into live steam *







) it may have had the *opposite effect *







& in fact *soured *







many potential newcomers to live-steam as *"too troublesome!" *







My own first live-steamer was the Accucraft 3-cylinder Shay







, which I've had for over 4 years & has *many hours of operation on it. *A good friend of mine, a well-known & respected narrow-gauge modeller, *originally tried to talk me out of purchasing it. *







- He advised me that *"live steam is nothing but constant tinkering" *







(as it happens, that's one of the *more enjoyable aspects *







of the hobby for me!) & *"they're difficult to control" *(as in "running away down grades!"







- which certainly applied to my Ruby until I installed RC in it.). After actually *seeing *







*the Accucraft 3-Cylinder Shay in operation, his comment was "That's the BEST-running live-steamer I've ever seen!" *







- Referring to both it's controlability & speed. While I've had to do some maintenace on it (learned how to re-time valves, & replacing piston rings is something I now plan on doing on an annual basis on it ), it's been a learning experience *I had planned on.*

Getting back to what I've read on the Aristo Mike, it sounded like the *electronics on it - ESPECIALLY the "sound system" *







(I'm using the term *VERY LOOSELY *







, from what I've heard about it) - are what a certain "curmudgeon"







refers to as *"cut-&-throw"!*







That aspect didn't have any real affect on my decison *at all *- I've installed RC in all 3 of my Accucraft live-steamers myself







, so pulling out the Aristo electronics & installing conventional RC components wouldn't bother me particularly much; but I could see how that would be a *real obstacle for many other people. *







A *far greater concern is the issue you're having with yours - basic reliability & assembly quality of the live-steam components (boiler & running gear). *Hope Aristo resolves this to your satisfaction *(even if it means sending you a NEW loco!). Good luck on it...*

*Tom* 






Tom:
Anyone ever tell you you have a lot of drama in your writing?


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

I can guarantee you he will not get a replacement as there are non to be had. Later RJD


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

You would expect that Aristocraft would sublet out the repairs just as Accucraft does to Dave Hottmann and Norm Saley.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Knowing Navin for this time, and also all the people he has helped right at train shows, this does not look like his work. 

And why did it take 3 months? I suspect that it was farmed out to a third party. Aristo probably assumed that the work was fine, fired it up, it ran and shipped it. 

Some of the work could not be checked without disassembly, I give that. 

Other parts of the work, like missing screws, are unpardonable in that they were overlooked, a simple visual inspection would have cauught this, and, in my opinion, SHOULD have prompted further investigation/certification of this work. 

The parts availability is a long standing thing with Aristo. They just don't order the parts when they say. They "forget" or the factory did not supply them when ordered. No follow up, no improvement, what a mess. 

Yes, you order 100 locos, you get 105 (or as Lewis stated: 1000 locos with 1 extra).... this has NOTHING to do with not ordering parts on an ongoing basis. There is no excuse after it keeps happening. 

I suspect the bottom line is the planning to get parts is faulty, or the lower profit of parts is the culprit. 

Lewis was upset when I intimated that profit came first. It does. The question is when does poor customer service and parts availability start impacting profit? Probably when they run out of Kool Aide. 

Regards, Greg


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## Tom Lapointe (Jan 2, 2008)

"
Tom:
Anyone ever tell you you have a lot of drama in your writing?"

*Not up until now, Chris. *







I'll admit I get maybe a *wee bit *







* over- enthusiastic with the "smilies"! *







*Tom*

PS -Charles, your mention of "Sams Photofacts" earlier in the thread brought back a *lot of old memories *from when I used to do TV repair about *30 years ago! *







(I may still have a few floating around here)....


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Perfect storm for Aristo as to their LS ship:

lack of customer confidence, poor economy, and competition. 

I cannot see them competing against the 1:29 offering of Accucraft in any future offerings given that Accucraft has more connection to the live steam community and combine that with the successful sales of the 0-6-0 with a very reasonable price. I cannot image anyone purchasing the Aristo 0-4-0 at a higher initial price than the AC 0-6-0. Maybe that is why the last post for production of Aristo 0-4-0 was 04-04-08:
Dear All,

The live steam 0-4-0 is set to be run in September, which means a late October delivery to the U.S.

All the best,
Lewis Polk 

As we all can detect nothing has come about, maybe the perfect storm has hit. 


I close out with a quote from the new Aristo catalog on improvement to the Mike:

"New smoke stack height for better water flow"


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

Charles, 

I find it Ironic that last post on the 0-4-0 was on 0-4-0,4, 2008. 

I wonder if changing the stack height will improve the water flow in my S-12? *hee hee*


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

That review of the new Accucraft 0-6-0 in the new Steam in the Garden shows it to be a great engine. It's only about $150 more than the $800 that St Aubins was advertising the new Aristo switcher to be. And the Accu is all metal, you can get parts, and they have good repairs. No brainer.


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## Gary Armitstead (Jan 2, 2008)

As a "dyed-in-the-wool" live steamer, I always wondered how a retro-fitted plastic locomotive was going to workout as a live steamers. The price for the Accucraft 0-6-0 IS a no-brainer IMHO.


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Jerry Barnes on 02/10/2009 9:02 AM
That review of the new Accucraft 0-6-0 in the new Steam in the Garden shows it to be a great engine. It's only about $150 more than the $800 that St Aubins was advertising the new Aristo switcher to be. And the Accu is all metal, you can get parts, and they have good repairs. No brainer.




Where are you seeing the accucraft 0-6-0 at that price? I'm only seeing it for over $1000 more.


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I've seen the Accucraft 0-6-0 listing online at RRS for a tad over $1300? 

Chas


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## CapeCodSteam (Jan 2, 2008)

There are two different 0-6-0 locomotives being distributed by Accucraft. 

The first being the Southern Pacific S-12, which is done in 1:32, list of around $2200. 
The second one, which is a bit cheaper is being sold as AML, ,or American Main Line. This is Accucrafts launch into the 1:29 market, and the loco was pre-ordering for about $1300.


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Royce has the switchers for I think 950.00 He is the forum sponser


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

How dare you people pick on poor Looie! 
It is not his fault he caused to be designed a plastic-boilered live steamer. 
Not his fault the wiring is so close to heat sources. 
Not his fault he failed to order sufficient spares. 
Not his fault he doesn't appear to have any qualified personnel to repair these items. 
Not his fault there is apparently no QC in PRC, nor is it his fault there is apparently no QC at his facility. 
Look at how he is raising the stack to improve "water flow". 
That proves he cares about the hobby! 
The man is a gentleman, and worshipped by his followers. 
If you don't believe that, come over to the Aristo-Craft forums and read up! 
There are NEVER ANY problems WHATSOEVER with Aristo-Craft products. 
You know that.


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Jerry,
Very sorry to hear you are having all these problems with aristo, WOW who would have thought that? any ways now you can see why we complain so much about them and there poor service, poor product and not being told the truth all the time. kinda makes you mad doesnt it???? im sure someone here can fix your loco, i just wouldnt count on aristo to do it RITE...............
Again sorry for your troubles...


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## Nicholas Savatgy (Dec 17, 2008)

Posted By DrG on 02/10/2009 1:23 PM
How dare you people pick on poor Looie! 
It is not his fault he caused to be designed a plastic-boilered live steamer. 
Not his fault the wiring is so close to heat sources. 
Not his fault he failed to order sufficient spares. 
Not his fault he doesn't appear to have any qualified personnel to repair these items. 
Not his fault there is apparently no QC in PRC, nor is it his fault there is apparently no QC at his facility. 
Look at how he is raising the stack to improve "water flow". 
That proves he cares about the hobby! 
The man is a gentleman, and worshipped by his followers. 
If you don't believe that, come over to the Aristo-Craft forums and read up! 
There are NEVER ANY problems WHATSOEVER with Aristo-Craft products. 
You know that.






AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA that was funny







also you forgot to mention the free packs of KOOL AID....


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

I got this and a phone call from Navin apologizing for the problems. He's having it picked up here and take it back and fix it himself. Hope it works out. Here's his email: 
Sorry for the way you received your Locomotive back. I will issue you a call tag to pick up the locomotive at no charge. I will replace the necessary parts my self and make sure every thing works the way it should. 
Thank you, 
Navin


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## Ted Doskaris (Oct 7, 2008)

The Forums have been purified and are well policed for contrarians, malcontents and troublemakers. Most errant offenders should fall into these categories.

-Ted


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

You see? 
I told you they were gentlemen, and only had the interests of the hobbyist at heart. 

What was that old saying we used to use? 

Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time, but always enough time to do it again? 

After this trip, you need to calculate the mileage accrued in shipping. 
I do believe you will have the highest mileage Aristo-Craft live steamer in the entire world.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

The good news is that Navin will work on it, and his track record is better than how your loco turned out this time. 

I'd give a few bucks to know who worked on it the first time. 

Regards, Greg


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## Kovacjr (Jan 2, 2008)

Its a shame that it took all of this to get it resolved thoguh. Glad to hear that its going to be fixed properly though.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Jerry
Good of you to work with Aristo allowing them to save face but I would require them to commit to your expectations of the "fixin" and a set time line. I do not think you want to be back on the forums with the expression: "fool me once...."

Still, I am curious what would happen if you fired that replacement boiler relative to its operational condition.... 


Keeping a positive thought that this will be made right and we can enjoy some more of your fine videos of live steam on that wonderful layout!


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## lownote (Jan 3, 2008)

Glad to hear it Jerry, good luck and let's hope this time they do it right.


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## tacfoley (Jan 3, 2008)

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 02/10/2009 2:42 PM
The good news is that Navin will work on it, and his track record is better than how your loco turned out this time. 

I'd give a few bucks to know who worked on it the first time. 

Regards, Greg


To me it looks as thought it was worked on by a gorilla wearing catchcer's mitts on both hands.

With apologies to any gorilla reading this post.

In truth, I don't bleeve that I have EVER seen such a mess in ANY product deemed fit for service by a customer.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


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## John Allman (Jan 2, 2008)

I must be an idiot, because what I see in this thread is what I already knew about Navin. He has said he will personally fix it. In my experience that is enough. And yes, I actually have been to the back office in NJ, and do know of Navin. And he has personally helped me (since I was actually in the office at the time) fix my one and only AristoCraft locomotive. Is it just maybe possible that Aristo did not want any customer to have this kind of experience? 

Now most of you can recognize that I am not an Aristo apologist. However, if or when the locomotive comes back fixed in an acceptible manor, is everyone on this thread going to congratulate AristoCraft? 

No, of course they wont. 
But perhaps we should all consider it. It is not disimiliar to how Aster is treated by Accucraft fans. Or, for that matter, how Accucraft is treated by Aster fans. 
Before you all get hypertension: I will admit it. I own Aster, Accucraft and Aristo products. Maybe I have a weakness for things begining with an A. 

John A.


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## Old Boy (Feb 9, 2009)

. . . if or when the locomotive comes back fixed in an acceptible manor, is everyone on this thread going to congratulate AristoCraft?


Let's remember what yer Mum always said . . . 
"Mum, I've been a good lad today, may I have a reward?" 
"No, there are no rewards for doing what you are supposed to do in the first place."


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

From what Jerry has posted it was a sure indication Navin did not do the repairs. I have been around him when he has worked on mine so it was hard to believe the condition it came back in. So it sounds like someone else did the repairs. Glade that Navin contacted you to make it right. Later RJD


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey, if it comes back fine this next time, I'll post it here, if not I will post that also.


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## Slick (Jan 3, 2008)

As far as I can see it's not been made right yet. I own one of the first delivered Aristocraft Mikados , 12/05/05 and crowed mightily about this engine and what a fine job Aristocraft had done. Not 3-4 months later, due to what I still believe to be design flaws it nearly burned itself down. I contacted Aristocraft, no parts to be had. No biggie, Ive been building all sorts of models for years, the cosmetic issues could be dealt with. What I find ridiculous regarding this engine is Aristocraft's absolute refusal to admit fault of any kind, provide no adequate spare parts, unable to repair their own product. What kind of stuff is this? Sorry, I don't drink Kool-Aid and I will call a spade a spade. Aristocraft would do well to either get it right or get out of live steam. I found myself censored from Aristocraft's website forum at least twice for giving them justified grief over their product. It has recieved more from myself and others yet don't seem to get the message.........Wha? 

Yes I know, OMG, another forum. Yep, a few years ago I opened a forum over on YAHOO. yahoo.com/group/Livesteam1-29/. Not being completely computer literate I'm sure that those who choose can find their way over to this forum, it is dedicated to the care and feeding of the Aristocraft Livesteam Mikado and yes, you may discuss other manufacturers engines and post pictures and hopefully find good info regarding this engine that Aristocraft does'nt seem able or willing to supply. By all means, if you have one of these engines come on in....... 

BTW, "Old Boy" you sure got that right.........Let's remember what yer Mum always said . . . 
"Mum, I've been a good lad today, may I have a reward?" 
"No, there are no rewards for doing what you are supposed to do in the first place.


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## Dwight Ennis (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Charles on 02/09/2009 7:48 PM

I close out with a quote from the new Aristo catalog on improvement to the Mike:

"New smoke stack height for better water flow"











Huh?? THAT'S a new one!


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## aceinspp (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh and don't for get they also said easier operation. No more goodall valve. Later RJD


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm an Aristo customer, too. 

Aristocraft has done remarkable things, considering that they started out as an import/mailorder department of a hobby shop. Personally, I have grown accustomed to dealing with huge companies with deep pockets, who can fix problems with a snap of the fingers. Clearly, small importers and basement operations aren't like that. On the other hand, their smallness is part of why they exist. 

Aristo may have stumbled here, but they showed a lot of guts in planning and importing a US-style R/C live steamer from a country so far away. ( My opinion) No one else, literally, has taken it up. Aristo has done a lot to fill a void left the US G market after the departure of LGB, all without its own huge factories or corporate support. If Aristo can get their live steam parts and service going full speed, it will be a good thing.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not posting to be contrary, but a couple of points you made I cannot understand. 

I could not say that "they showed a lot of guts in planning and importing a US-style R/C live steamer from a country so far away". The only way to make something competitively priced was to import it from some place like China or Korea, both far away. They are no more "gutsy" than other companies, sparkies or live steamers. 

Aristo is actually very smart in NOT having it's own factories, and contracting out, it saves them the investment of lots of employees, factories, etc. The down side is lack of QC and control, which we are experiencing. It's a trade off, one made consciously by EVERY "manufacturer" who contracts or outsources. 

I will agree with your last statement, and we all have hope that it will happen, and the 0-4-0 live steamer and the Rogers live steamer, both promised, will appear. If they go ahead, maybe the "critical mass" of customers will be great enough for Aristo to change their policy on stocking parts. 

Regards, Greg


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Now Tom, almost all live steamers are made in China or Japan. The Cricket is the only US one and a couple in Germany and the UK.


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Of course many of them are ( made in the far East). I was merely referring to the challenges that Aristo must have faced with their first entry into this type of engine, which for them was a gamble. Going to the factory to check the production isn't like driving to Toledo. ;=)


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

I'd like your opinion--- I read that the mechanism is a good one---if so, is the smokebox design a weak spot and would a metal replacement fix it? 

cheers


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## wchasr (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, 
I'm somewhat confused in your statement that Aristo is small now and came from small roots? They've been involved in many facets of the hobby industry for longer than a good share of us have been alive. From Early model trains to R/C cars boats and planes and most importantly R/C radios. While the large scale train business is what we know them best for they do ahve some past experience in other facets of the hobby industry. I believe I've still got an old 3 channel R/C car radio that was an Aristocraft item? It's earmarked for a Train related project someday. Hopefully it still works when I get around to it. 

Chas


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## Jerry Barnes (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom, 
If you seal up the smokebox(under the plastic one) and put a brass sleeve over the end of the burner(prevents smokebox fires) you are in pretty good shape. I guess you could use a copper pipe for the boiler shell/smokebox. Quite a few people use pipes for boilers, does not change sizes as they really do, but look okay actually.


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## Greg Elmassian (Jan 3, 2008)

Tom, was not trying to give you a hard time, just making the point that there was nothing distinctive or more difficult for Aristo than the other manufacturers. 

The real bottom line here is Aristo's decision NOT to order spare parts. I have seen non-credible replies that they ordered parts and the factory did not send them. Aristo is the customer, and could have gotten parts if requested. This is not a new situation, so I cannot congratulate Aristo for this, since it is a negative, and not impossible. 

This is not bashing Aristo, but it is calling for realistic and credible answers. It would be much better if Aristo said "we don't order parts because..." and the real reason was given. 


Regards, Greg


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

Our network alerted the staff at Aristo-Craft of the horrible bashing of their products going on. 
The staff, since the bashing was not on the main Aristo-Craft forum where it could simply be deleted, was forced to contact the owner directly. 

Our next item on the agenda is to convince the hobbyist that Aristo-Craft is small, has never imported anything before, does not understand how the process works, that the entire issue can be laid at the companies efforts to be the "first" to import a live-steam locomotive from China, and the resulting learning curve. 
The "mantra" is that Aristo-Craft is always first, and if anyone ever has the audacity to publish printed documentation proving otherwise, our job as the support structure is to shout them down, by calling them names and once again trying to divert attention from anything remotely factual. 

So far, I believe we are doing a fine job of diverting attention from the issue at hand. 

At least one person posting in this thread will be given the coveted "Aristo-Craft Gold Star" award.


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## Charles (Jan 2, 2008)

Is the "star" a beacon- one that guides others down the golden rails to the promise land or a reflection- causing blinding faith for those that believe if only we would invoke the mantra then all will be right in the train world.


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes, many have received said stars. 
However, one old adage is firmly grasped by those in charge of the stars. 

One "Oh, ShXt!" wipes out 15 "Atta-Boys". 

I do believe 50 Gold Stars will get one the coveted "Aristo-Craft Supporter" award, or, as referred to in the trenches, the "Golden Jock-Strap". 

I have not heard of anyone yet attaining that rank. 
Of course, the "rules" may be such that if you discuss your "award status" you will lose said award. 

I will also pass along that some who have dared to speak the truth have been banned from the Company Forums, while others who have exhibited less than lock-step support by posting outside of the Company Forums information deemed by the Company to not be in the best interests of said Company may find their access to said forums summarily disrupted. 

The Company is everything. 
Long live The Company!


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By DrG on 02/12/2009 10:27 AM
SNIP.....
Our next item on the agenda is to convince the hobbyist that Aristo-Craft is small, has never imported anything before, does not understand how the process works, that the entire issue can be laid at the companies efforts to be the "first" to import a live-steam locomotive from China, and the resulting learning curve. 
The "mantra" is that Aristo-Craft is always first, and if anyone ever has the audacity to publish printed documentation proving otherwise, our job as the support structure is to shout them down, by calling them names and once again trying to divert attention from anything remotely factual. 

.....SNIP 



Would that "we are the first" claim be similar to how AristoCraft is trying to re-write history and convince everyone that they were the "first" with purpose designed R/C for Large Scale model Trains?


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lewis said they were, therefore, they are, right?


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## Tom Leaton (Apr 26, 2008)

Greg,

Well said.


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## 7270 (Jan 28, 2009)

Greg- 
The REAL reason they don't order spare parts is that nothing ever breaks from Aristo-Craft. 
Whenever someone announces that something does not work, the first response is "We've never seen that before". 

If it doesn't break, why order parts?


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## Cougar Rock Rail (Jan 2, 2008)

OK...I can't bite my tongue any longer. Setting aside Lewis's claim that they had done extensive testing (it was something outrageous like 2000hrs), here is a clip from their website promoting the loco. Looking at the last four words in the last paragraph; one would certainly be led to believe that it would last more than a season or two before melting down, and certainly one could expect that parts would be available long term: 

"Aristo-Craft proudly presents its interpretation of Live Steam with Aristo-Tech included. The radio control system is integral to the operation and built in to the locomotive from inception, as is the sound. An included battery operates the speed and direction as well as a variety of sounds. A built in starter powered by the battery system controls the ignition of the Butane fired boiler. 

Here's your chance to operate Live Steam in G-Gauge and not need a mechanic next to you. The operation is simplified and startup time takes about 10 minutes until you are running your realistic and fun Live Steam Mikado. The integral radio control means you can control your locomotive as if you were seated in the engineer's chair and have full control of your train operation anywhere on your layout. The electronically controlled sounds mean you can start and stop all sounds at will and enhance the realism to all senses. This is fun guys! The Live Steam Mikado is something new that all G-Gaugers will want to try and *treasure as a collectible. *"


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## TonyWalsham (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like a bit of everything to me. 

Steam, R/C, sound and collectible. 

Certainly not the Kiss principle.


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## rwjenkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 02/12/2009 6:58 PM
...all G-Gaugers will want to try and *treasure as a collectible. *" 


A collectible? As in something you proudly on your shelf, or better yet leave it sealed in the original packaging, but don't dare run it under any circumstances? I guess it would solve a lot of peoples' problems if we all did that! Personally though, I'm having too much fun running mine and tinkering with it.


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